# Multiple Attackers-Fantasy or Reality?



## MJS (Jul 23, 2007)

Many times, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, there are usually two sides. One side says that its impossible to defend against more than one person and that there are no mult. attacker techniques. The other side says that it is possible and that there are techniques or concepts that will and have worked. 

The other part of this is what art stands a better chance of defending against this type of attack? Some will say the grappling arts and others will say the stand up arts have a better chance.

So, here are the questions:

1) Is it possible? 

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense?  (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)


----------



## Sukerkin (Jul 23, 2007)

From my experience, the answers I can give are:

1) Yes

2) You utilise the fact that the only person you have to co-ordinate with is you.  In my case I used a restraining lock on one attacker to help fend off another whilst I dealt with a third (leg break).  Then I turned the lock into a break and made a final use of that fellow as a shield whilst I ran like mad.  The precis is if you can avoid being mobbed to the ground then you can use lack of co-operation amongst your attackers to your benefit.

3) N/A

4) I don't think this is particularly relevant, in my personal case I was training in Lau Gar Kung Fu but I firmly believe that any art you are competent in will serve you just as well.

5) I can see why some would feel that an equaliser would be of benefit.  Indeed, it may well cause the attackers to back off enough for you to escape.  However, unless it approximates a weapon you are trained in I reckon you'd be better off not limiting your options and staying empty-handed - that's where the majority of you training hours have been spent after all.


----------



## Steel Tiger (Jul 23, 2007)

First let me say I, like Sukerkin, think it is very possible to defend yourself against multiple attackers.



Sukerkin said:


> 2) You utilise the fact that the only person you have to co-ordinate with is you. In my case I used a restraining lock on one attacker to help fend off another whilst I dealt with a third (leg break). Then I turned the lock into a break and made a final use of that fellow as a shield whilst I ran like mad. *The precis is if you can avoid being mobbed to the ground then you can use lack of co-operation amongst your attackers to your benefit*.


 
This is a very good point.  I found that I was following the advice of Musashi without knowing it.  By using qinna and interposing one between me and the other (there were only two) I was able to shield myself and deal with one (broken wrist or dislocated elbow, not sure which but it hurt him) at the same time.  With his mate screaming in pain the other guy was not so keen anymore and I was able to make my escape.

I was using qinna mainly because I train with it extensively and have found it works almost all the time.  I suppose that all that circling in bagua was being used subconsciously as I endeavoured to keep the my victim between me and the other guy.

An equaliser?  I would happily pick up something to swing if I was comfortable with it.  Knives are becoming a real big problem down here but that degree of escalation really pisses me off (guns are much less of a problem).


----------



## MA-Caver (Jul 23, 2007)

Multiple attackers can be a reality. About 25 years ago I was in St. Louis MO. with friend who was attending a class reunion of sorts. During a lull we went out for a bite to eat on foot. Bad timing as it was on a Sunday afternoon and pretty much everything downtown or near the river was closed. Still we found something and ate and headed back to the hotel (Sheraton I think it was). Enroute we passed a group of about 8 boys and I noticed half a block later they turned around and started following us. 
Short story: they chased us, separated us (unwillingly), my friend made it into the hotel I got twarted and was chased by 6 around the building and was cut off on the far side by the remaining two intending to cut me off (successfully)...  put my back against the wall and had them around me in a half circle. Fortunately they all didn't attack at once and I fought off and hurt two of the boldest ones that came in close before one of the hotel staff came out and hollered that he called the police and to get away from me, they bolted and ran, got my watch... that was all. Police caught 5 of them and I didn't/couldn't press charges because I would have to stay in town for court and I was only passing through. The city of St. Louis wouldn't accommodate me despite my being attacked in their town, (ya I know, not their fault, just my dumb luck being selected out of the herd by a pack of hyenas...). No weapons, nothing fancy just what training I had at the time and a lot of anger because I got trapped in a bad position. 
Still if anything was handy I would've grabbed it and used it. Oh my yes. 
At the time my art studies was Wing Chun & TKD. Used mostly the WC as my back was against the wall (not flush mind you, about less than a foot and a half) and my eyes were trying to keep 7 guys in view at the same time in a 180 degree arc. Not easy. Scary situation. Also very fortunate that they were all teenagers (not one was over 17) ... had they been older (wiser) I don't think I'd be here.


----------



## Drac (Jul 23, 2007)

MJS said:


> Many times, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, there are usually two sides. One side says that its impossible to defend against more than one person and that there are no mult. attacker techniques. The other side says that it is possible and that there are techniques or concepts that will and have worked.


 



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> 1) Is it possible?


 
Yes, it's very possible.. Punks in a group feel no fear and will try anything



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> 2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?


 
front snap kicks to shins or knees



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> 3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?


 
See answer for #1..



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> 4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?


 
I don't believe one discipline will be better that another, it will ALL depend on the practioneer and his/her ability to deliver non-stop techniques..



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> 5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)


 
ANYTHING I have I will use..My preference is for my PR-24 which is always in my car..


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jul 23, 2007)

MJS said:


> Many times, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, there are usually two sides. One side says that its impossible to defend against more than one person and that there are no mult. attacker techniques. The other side says that it is possible and that there are techniques or concepts that will and have worked.
> 
> The other part of this is what art stands a better chance of defending against this type of attack? Some will say the grappling arts and others will say the stand up arts have a better chance.
> 
> So, here are the questions:



Based upon experience my answers are the following:




MJS said:


> 1) Is it possible?



Yes it is possible to fight and survive. 



MJS said:


> 2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?



Movement such that you limit those who can gain access to you at one time. Do not get tied up. Use techniques that are short and cause lots of pain and or damage, so people will think twice about coming back. 



MJS said:


> 3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?



See above



MJS said:


> 4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?



Any art could fail in this endeavor. I believe that it really is the individual.

But those that deal with Wrestling and or pinning only are in trouble based upon my experience. Once on the ground you may be able to tie the guy up and cause him pain (* if he is not on some drug that prohibits pain from registering - been there done that trying to be nice and not strike while helping a police officer who was having problems, not good *). The Friends of the one on the ground are now able to kick you or to knife you or hit you or what have it.




MJS said:


> 5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)



I would use what ever is available. If there was a window that I knew was part of a security system I would have no problem setting it off with contact of breaking to get an audible or even silent alarm to start the process. Personally, I like the audible as then those involved hear it and think about leaving. 

Would I use a weapon. Yes I would use a weapon. The issue is legal in many situations as in if you go first are you now the agressor? But, given that I prefer blunt objects, I would use them. I would also use a knife or gun or bottle or even a tuna fish can if it was available. I carry pens with me, as well as training knives many times. These would be used. 

I also have no problem with hurting the first one so bad they need to be in the hospital for days. Why? Because I am afraid. I am really afraid of spending those days in the hospital if I am lucky. If I am not lucky then I will not be able to spend any days at all anywhere. Hurt one bad and fast and the others think twice. In particular if you take out the leader or an instigator or one of the "big" guys and I use big in quotes to represent that this could be anyone for any size, but the closest is many times someone who looks for the sucker punch on others, to get things rolling.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 23, 2007)

Yes it is possible and there are many people alive today because they did the right thing at the right time.  

Every situation will vary and so there simply is know correct answers.  All we can do is train hard and hopefully in the moment our training will take over and keep us safe.


----------



## MJS (Jul 23, 2007)

Gotta reply to my own thread right! 



> 1) Is it possible?


 
Yes.  I do feel that it is something that needs to be trained, just like any other aspect of an art.  



> 2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?


 
Considering that they've already up'd the odds, I'd say that anything is up for use.  If possible, doing your best to position one in front of the other.  If its possible to get ahold of one, momentarily using him as a shield may be another option.  Causing one person extreme pain may be enough to persuade the others to back off.  In a situation like this, I'd say going with the most brutal techniques you have is the best bet.



> 4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?


 
I dont know how every art trains multiple attack defense, so I cant really say what art is best per se, but I'd tend to lean towards a stand up art first, grappling art second.  Rolling on the ground isn't the best option, but as I said in #2, if its possible to grab ahold of one, you could inflict some pain.  



> 5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)


 
Absolutely!!  Like I said, they already increased the odds against you, so why not use something?


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jul 23, 2007)

Is it possible to defend aginst multiple attackers? Depends. Do you mean survive? Then of course. The trick is to run. Is it possible to beat up mutliple attackers? Maybe. It all depends on HOW you try to defend yourself. But, I'll get to this latter.

No techniques or concepts speciaficly. I have seen some styles that include special attacks for multiple attackers. Not sure how well they would work. I have noticed (from various sources) that the three best ideas are:
1, RUN! Discretion is the better part of valor. If nothing else, no one runs at the same speed. So, you can wheel around and knock one around, then run some more.
2, Keep them in a line. If you keep one between the others, you might stand more of chance. If nothign else, you could keep one at bay for a little bit. Try to get one in something that can be leathel. Then say "alright, back off or he gets it!" just be willing to actually give it to him.
3, Grab something big and heavy then, swing. Well, really any weapon is ok for this. Basicly, just try to kill something (note the wording). If you cann't get a weapon, well... good luck.

i can sotra answer this. people will try to almost a "kill Bill" thing. you do that, you will die. anythign dumb like that, and you will die.

Best... ANBO-JITSU! For those of who don't watch Star Trek, my point is there is no best. With a little research, you could easily find were your art adresses multiple attackers. This could be in a Kata, a Drill/Aikido-like technique, or a shadow boxing combo that will work. There is a reason I like to say that Kata is your Martial God.

Yes.

Other things I wish to adress: 
Going to the ground. If at all possible, NO. You are to easy a target on the ground. However, if you are one of the attackers, you want to go there. Therefore, as the defender, you still need to be familiar with what to do in this situation. Not to mention many ground fighting techniques can be appled to weapon defense, or used to restrain someone to do the good old "back off or he gets it!"

Training for multiple attackers. Work combos that can be applied to this situation. Go running alot. Work drills that can be applied to this situation. Sparring with mutliple attackers. In short, the same way as all your other situational defenses.


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2007)

MJS said:


> The other part of this is what art stands a better chance of defending against this type of attack? Some will say the grappling arts and others will say the stand up arts have a better chance.
> 
> So, here are the questions:
> 
> ...



1)  Yes, it's possible to defend against multiple attackers.  It's not easy, and there's a very good chance you'll get hurt (especiallly if they're skilled or able to coordinate their attacks), but it can be done.

2) Depends on a lot of things, but the most basic idea is don't get so tied up with one guy that you're meat for the others; you can also use movement to try to keep them in each other's way.  Basically, it's too broad for me to try to write here...

3) Irrelevant; it is possible.  It's not easy.  You're likely to get hurt.  But it's possible.

4) I'd say grappling arts are the least suited as a general rule, simply because they tie you up with one guy.  Striking arts are probably better suited... but there's probably also plenty of room for a compromise/blend approach.  It's not the art -- it's what you choose to do with it.

5) HELL ****ING YES!  My first option if I have to fight more than one person is a gun.  Failing that... anything else available works!  Even the odds... then tilt them in your favor!


----------



## qi-tah (Jul 23, 2007)

MJS said:


> Many times, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, there are usually two sides. One side says that its impossible to defend against more than one person and that there are no mult. attacker techniques. The other side says that it is possible and that there are techniques or concepts that will and have worked.
> 
> The other part of this is what art stands a better chance of defending against this type of attack? Some will say the grappling arts and others will say the stand up arts have a better chance.
> 
> ...


 
To defend against multiple attackers? For sure.



MJS said:


> 2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?


 
I'm with Sukerkin and ST on this one. Use one as a sheild or use yr footwork to arrange yr attackers to yr own advantage ("lining them up") Most of the time attacks will be very quick and chaotic, so i'd tend to keep moving and strike on passing as opposed to gripping and inflicting damage. If you can tangle them up with each other then you have a good chance at a free shot or two before you take off.



MJS said:


> 4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?


 
I don't really know enough to answer this question fully. Ba gua and Aikido are supposed to be effective systems against multiple attackers. But then so is playing rugby union! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






MJS said:


> 5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)


 
Yes, though i wouldn't show it to them first in the hope of getting them to back off. I feel that this would make them spread out and become more coordinated in their attacks. But if i had a small screwdriver, or a short length of metal or wood, or my bike helmet on me, i wouldn't hesitate to give them a crack on the way through. The down side is that gives them a little more purchase to grab you with when things get close, not to metion the change in the stakes if they manage to wrest the weapon from you.


----------



## exile (Jul 23, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> From my experience, the answers I can give are:
> 
> 1) Yes
> 
> ...



I have never been in this postion, at least not where I was empty-handed. But Sukerkin's experience matches that of others who I've known who did have to deal with two or more attackers, and dovetails with the pattern that I've noticed they all have in common: that yes, it is possible to deal with multiple attackers _*if*_the big questionyou can keep the close-contact fighting to one-on-one. Find the weak link, close the range with him fast, get him between you and the others, or finish him off and break out through the gap thus created. You can't let two of them into close range with you, striking at you simultaneously. That seems to be how the people I knew who came out in one piece from group attacks in New York when I lived there did it. It didn't happen to all that many peoplethe City wasn't a particularly safe place in those days but as big cities go it was a lot safer than many other places on the east coast such as Baltimore, Philadelphia and D.C.but there were a lot of tough kids who travelled in packs, and things did happen from time to time...


----------



## MaartenSFS (Jul 24, 2007)

MJS said:


> 1) Is it possible?


 
Absobloodylutely. Is it probable? Not very. If they have weapons (and you don't) AND/OR you are with a loved one that is not martially able... You're pretty much ****ed.



MJS said:


> 2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?


 
Striking arts/stand-up grappling. There are some excellent Qinna/Shuaijiao hand/leg combination techniques that are superb for this sort of situation. Follow these up with elbow strikes to places that hurt. 



MJS said:


> 3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?


 
For most people it is impossible. We train to not be one of them.



MJS said:


> 4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?


 
I agree about the grappling, but I would limit that notion to body-to-body techniques (I.E. throws). I also think that Taekwondo and Wushu would be useless (Good TKD is no longer TKD  - FLAME ON!!!).



MJS said:


> 5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)





jks9199 said:


> 5) HELL ****ING YES!


 I am never without my "negtiation stick" or some other tool of this trade.


----------



## exile (Jul 24, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I also think that Taekwondo and Wushu would be useless *(Good TKD is no longer TKD  - FLAME ON!!!).*



I'm sorry, but you've lost me here... can you paraphrase the bolded part less cryptically? I have an idea of what this could mean, but I'd rather not attribute ideas to you that might not reflect your actual intention.


----------



## MaartenSFS (Jul 24, 2007)

exile said:


> I'm sorry, but you've lost me here... can you paraphrase the bolded part less cryptically? I have an idea of what this could mean, but I'd rather not attribute ideas to you that might not reflect your actual intention.


 
No, I'm sure you read correctly. I *am* an arsehole, after all. One that believes in what he says.  My meaning was that if it's good (I.E. combat effective), it cannot be TKD, which is quite the opposite. Anyways, this little side remark was hardly the focus of my post, so just let by-gones be by-gones.


----------



## tntma12 (Jul 24, 2007)

Yes defending yourself against multiple attackers is quite possible and probable, depending on your training.  I would agree that grappling would probably not be the best approach, but I feel that any martial art, including TKD would be benificial.  There are many arts as well that would teach you to defend against weapons as well as multiple attackers.  Aikido, though it takes a long time to become efficient, is great for both.  I do believe it would depend on the instructor, not the style to prepare you for this potential situation.


----------



## Mr. E (Jul 24, 2007)

Dealing with multiple attackers is possible.

The thing is, you have to lower your expectations and not expect to beat all of them like a drum. If you define being able to get home in one piece as a victory, then you can win in a situation involving multiple opponents.

It has been my observation that many people who train in a "defeat the other guy or nothing" philosophy _just can't_ seem to get it through their head that people do not have to send anyone else to the hospital to gain victory by getting home without injury. To some folks (not all) you either defeat the other side or they defeat you. So they preach that nothing can be done about multiple attackers so you might as well just concentrate on being the best against one and be ready to kiss yourself goodbye should you meet more than one attacker. In my experience, the most vocal of these folks tend to be very competitive, need to prove themselves and probably are uncomfortable with the idea of running from a fight when given an opening.


----------



## Flatlander (Jul 24, 2007)

> 1) Is it possible?


I think it's possible.  Obviously, if the escape option is not viable, one would need to believe it's possible, wouldn't one? :lol2:



> 2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?


Keeping in mind that I'd never try to predict specifics, I would certainly do my best to try to control the range, maintaining distance until a moment of my choosing.  I'd try to stay very mobile, making it challenging for all to 'hone in' on me.  I'd want to be cautious of becoming attached to any one of them for an extended period of time, preferring to strike and move.  My feeling is that anything that slows me down, such as one downed attacker on the ground grabbing my foot, is a very dangerous liability.  Mobility would be my greatest asset....



> 4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?


I don't.  I think that there are very likely a host of various arts that would teach appropriate skills.  Odds of success would be influenced more by mindset and training than knowledge of a specific technique or this punch vs. that punch.  Aside from that - as I have not trained extensively in other arts, I am largely ignorant as to their relative qualities, strengths and weaknesses.  Given that, I'd hate to make a faulty assumption.  Somebody might take offense.



> 5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)


No doubt about it.  My very first instinct would be to scan the area to see what I could get my hands on.  I don't tend to carry any weaponry on me - perhaps, if I had time, I'd remove my belt.  Of course, that would mean I'd need to abandon my pants..... :lol2:


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jul 24, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> My meaning was that if it's good (I.E. combat effective), it cannot be TKD, which is quite the opposite.


 
I'll wait for one of the actual Tae Kwon Do guys here to point out how wrong you are. When ever your ready Exile.


----------



## Kacey (Jul 24, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> No, I'm sure you read correctly. I *am* an arsehole, after all. One that believes in what he says.  My meaning was that if it's good (I.E. combat effective), it cannot be TKD, which is quite the opposite. Anyways, this little side remark was hardly the focus of my post, so just let by-gones be by-gones.



I'm sorry you've not seen truly _good_ TKD - which is _extremely_ combat effective.  As far as letting bygones be bygones - IMHO the above was hardly an apology, and while you may not have intended it to be the focus of your post, I can assure you that quite a few people will be focusing on it.

To return to the topic at hand, which is multiple attackers, I won't bother to repeat the truly excellent responses which have already been posted - but I will add, as an addendum to running and taking on opponents 1-on-1 whenever possible, that staying out the middle of the group is generally advisable.


----------



## 14 Kempo (Jul 24, 2007)

MJS said:


> 1) Is it possible?


Yes. It is definately possible.



MJS said:


> 2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?


Anything goes. First of all, don't get involved unless you are willing to go the distance. Secondly, my feelings are in line with a couple previous statements, take out the biggest, strongest, toughest in the bunch first and take him out hard, no remorse. How you figure who that person is, could be another issue.

In my mind, it's the quiet, confident one. If I take out the tough guy, as fast and as hard as I can, the weaker will think twice about coming in. If I take out the weak guy, the tough guy may feel he needs to protect his friend ... IMHO

Another great point that has been mentioned numerous times throughout this thread, keep the person you are locked up with between you and the others, line them up.



MJS said:


> 3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?


N/A



MJS said:


> 4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?


Whatever art you art trained in, is the art that offers you the best self defense at the time. No other art will help you. I'm in a stand up, hands oriented art, so of course I'll say it will work best.



MJS said:


> 5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)


I would use whatever I needed to use in the case of multiple attackers, it's life or death. If picking up a pile of dog stuff and rubbing it in the face of an attacker will work, then I'll do it ... whatever it takes. Like I said before, be prepared to go the distance. Whether I survive or not, the group coming after me is going to leave wondering why they ever thought I should be their victim.


----------



## KenpoTex (Jul 24, 2007)

1) Is it possible? 
I think it is possible to survive against multiple attackers if you have the proper mindset and use sound tactics.

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?
When I taught a series on defending against multiples, the tactics I stressed were:  1) Never remain stationary as this will only allow them to "box you in."  In other words, KEEP MOVING!  2) Try to "line up" the attackers so that you only have to deal with one at a time--you can fight 3 people one at a time much more easily that all at once.  3) Be nasty from the outset.  I don't want to have to deal with the same guy more than once.  Seek to disable with every strike.  If you can take people out of the fight, you're increasing your odds of success.

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?  
see #1

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?  
I personally feel that striking-based methods are going to work best.  Wrestling and grappling based methods, I feel, will leave you tied up with one person for way too long.  I might use clinch/standup-grappling to move someone around (to "line them up" or use one as a shield) but I'm going to use striking to put them down.  With regard to specific techniques, as I said earlier, you want to disable them as quickly as possible.  Therefore, I feel that attacking the eyes, throat, and knees are going to be the most effective.  Really, I'll hit anything within reach but I'm concentrating on targets that will take them out of the fight.  If kicks are used, use only low-line kicks.  Mobility is paramount and you don't want to be caught off balance by trying to kick too high.

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)
Hell yes!  If I see more than one person coming at me, I'm definately going to be going for a weapon.  If I'm already in the fight I'm going to be trying to create an opportunity access my weapons and if I get my weapon(s) deployed, I'm going to use them until there is no longer a threat.  
AFAIK, when dealing with multiples, a weapon is my first line of defense, not my last.

edit:  One thing that everyone needs to keep in mind when dealing with this issue...Multiple attacker situations are dangerous.  Many people have been killed because they ended up on the ground with 3 or 4 guys doing the Texas two-step on their face.  AFAIC, the disparity of force that exists when you are outnumbered is automatic justification for the use of deadly force.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jul 24, 2007)

Kacey said:


> I'm sorry you've not seen truly _good_ TKD - which is _extremely_ combat effective. As far as letting bygones be bygones - IMHO the above was hardly an apology, and while you may not have intended it to be the focus of your post, I can assure you that quite a few people will be focusing on it.


 
I was expecting Exile to say that. Ohh well, your just as good! Wait... you out rank him, so your better! :rofl:


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Jul 24, 2007)

I have the experience and memories to know it's possible, echoing many of the sentiments in this thread.

However, I think we're not putting enough emphasis on how dangerous multiple attacker situations are.  They are bad, bad news.  Yes, it's possible, but evasion and escape are plans a,b,c and d.

Effective techniques, in order of preference:

1.  Using heightened awareness to avoid the situation entirely.
2.  Avoiding injury through rapid flight.
3.  Fight briefly, long enough to create an exit, then run like...well, like a bunch of guys are chasing you.
4.  Use the smallest attacker as a body shield until you can create an exit.

Another plan, which has worked for me, is to stay in excellent cariovascular condition.  If you run even a block and a half, most of your average thugs are going to be winded.  Run 'til they're winded, then turn around and front kick one in the gut.  He'll puke 'til next Wednesday.

As far as equalizers, I'm all for them as long as you're trained and have a reasonable chance of escape.  If you get overrun while using a weapon, you are in serious, serious hurt.  They *will* take it away and they *will* use it on you.  Only draw down if you think it will materially improve your chance of escape.

Just my two cents.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jul 24, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> Run 'til they're winded, then turn around and front kick one in the gut. He'll puke 'til next Wednesday.


 
I love this line.


----------



## morph4me (Jul 24, 2007)

MJS said:


> Many times, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, there are usually two sides. One side says that its impossible to defend against more than one person and that there are no mult. attacker techniques. The other side says that it is possible and that there are techniques or concepts that will and have worked.
> 
> The other part of this is what art stands a better chance of defending against this type of attack? Some will say the grappling arts and others will say the stand up arts have a better chance.
> 
> ...


----------



## LawDog (Jul 24, 2007)

Keep your attackers away from each other so that they will not be able to unify in their attack against you.


----------



## Sukerkin (Jul 24, 2007)

Aw, *Maarten*, _why_ did you have to go and actually make a good point just when I was going to take you to task for being rude ?

With regard to weapon use, tho', times have changed a lot since the days when carrying and using weapons as an ordinary citizen was considered not worthy of comment.  

I suspect that making use of a weapon, if it ever came to a court of law, would certainly be held against you, regardless of circumstances - I'm by no means saying that that is a correct attitude but I do think it to be a likely outcome.

I still feel that the comment I made stands whereby if you're not trained in the use of a weapon and are trained in an empty-hand art then you're better off with the skill you've honed.


----------



## Adept (Jul 24, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> It is *I* who am sorry. Truly good TKD is just Karate.



I can assure you that this (quite bizarre) definition of what techniques and strategies define the styles of karate and taekwondo is very much unique to yourself.

There are many techniques and strategies which are very effective in the real world, and which are also commonly recognised as taekwondo.


----------



## kidswarrior (Jul 24, 2007)

MJS said:


> 1) Is it possible?


Yes, as several posters have alluded to personal experiences--I'm one of those.



> 2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?


Have to go with *Sukerkin *et al on this: Hurt/tie up one and use to momentarily shield the others. Second best, *Caver*'s experience: put your back to the wall and do your best. And wouldn't want to settle on a technique ahead of time, but *Drac*'s shin kicks are a favorite (close counts, too, as in knee, thigh, ankle). 



> 3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?


It's _*not optional*_ if it happens.



> 4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?


Any that allows you to keep your feet under you, and that you train in and believe in.



> 5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense?  (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)


Well, if I could legally carry a PR 24 like Drac and others, that would be my choice. Since not, combat cane. Barring that, kubotan (or double kubotans--used in hammer fists they can be vicious).


----------



## Drac (Jul 24, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Well, if I could legally carry a PR 24 like Drac and others, that would be my choice. Since not, combat cane. Barring that, kubotan (or double kubotans--used in hammer fists they can be vicious).


 
Always have a cane in the car too..Carry a Kubotan and a ProTek Key..Both are nasty little surprises...


----------



## Mr. E (Jul 24, 2007)

A few comments taken from the responses.



> Do not get tied up.





> Depends on a lot of things, but the most basic idea is don't get so tied up with one guy that you're meat for the others;





> The precis is if you can avoid being mobbed to the ground then you can use lack of co-operation amongst your attackers to your benefit.





> I'd try to stay very mobile, making it challenging for all to 'hone in' on me. I'd want to be cautious of becoming attached to any one of them for an extended period of time, preferring to strike and move. My feeling is that anything that slows me down, such as one downed attacker on the ground grabbing my foot, is a very dangerous liability. Mobility would be my greatest asset....





> First of all, don't get involved unless you are willing to go the distance.





> Never remain stationary as this will only allow them to "box you in." In other words, KEEP MOVING!





> Fight briefly, long enough to create an exit, then run like...well, like a bunch of guys are chasing you.



Ok, so all of the above excellent points are somehow dependent on the idea that _you know that there are multiple opponents._

Here is a kicker to the discussion.....

....what if you don't know you are facing more than one guy until the others jump in on the dance?

I have learned that guys with knives will often not bother to let you know they have them until they put it in you and that people will not line up and introduce everyone who will be paqrticipating in a fight ahead of time.

It is quite common for one guy to be facing someone, only to find that his opponent has friends once things get to the ground.

So all these comments about not commiting yourself to one guy.... would it not be safe to say that they are not *just* for when you *know* that you are facing multiple opponents, but also when there is *any* possibility that someone else may join in? So any move that causes you to go to the ground or otherwise get tied up with just one guy is best saved for people with a lot of backup like police taking down a suspect or bouncers that work in teams?

Of course, that is not how many dojos train. Especially the ones that put a lot of emphisis on competition and the vocal ones I talked about.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jul 24, 2007)

Very true Mr. E. Thus why I like my "run tail and RUN!" aproach.


----------



## MaartenSFS (Jul 25, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Aw, *Maarten*, _why_ did you have to go and actually make a good point just when I was going to take you to task for being rude ?
> 
> With regard to weapon use, tho', times have changed a lot since the days when carrying and using weapons as an ordinary citizen was considered not worthy of comment.
> 
> ...


 
I'm sorry. I couldn't resist. They were the aggressors. It was merely self defense.

About your last point I agree, but I would still caryy a weapon, even if it was against the law, because the law favours criminals and if they carry, so will I. Better their blood on my hands than mine on theirs.


----------



## Josh Oakley (Jul 25, 2007)

short reply:

Yes it is possible. I've been jumped twice in my life. The second time I wasn't a bloody mess. Stay disentangled in a multiple-attacker scenario because mobility is key. As soon as possible... flee.


----------



## Adept (Jul 25, 2007)

Josh Oakley said:


> As soon as possible... flee.



Another thing to remember is that fleeing is not an option for all of us.

As a bouncer, if I'm doing a hard ejection and two of the ejectee's buddies materialise out of the crowd to help him out, I don't get the choice to run. I have to handle it as best I can until my backup arrives.


----------



## Doc_Jude (Jul 25, 2007)

MJS said:


> 1) Is it possible?



Yep. 



> 2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?



Footwork is paramount. Footwork is what will save you in a multi-opponent situations. This may be running, as it should be. If your awareness fails you, you may be dealing with distractions while attacks are coming from right angles or from beyond your peripheral vision. Beyond that, NO LINE FIGHTING! HIT HARD AND MOVE!



> 3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?



N/A



> 4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?



Any art that trains effective multi-opponent methods can work. I practice a Pentjak Silat style that deals with multi's.



> 5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense?  (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)



Yes, of course. They bring friends, I'm bringing a friend. Group attacks absolutely justify the legal use of force multipliers.


----------



## kidswarrior (Jul 25, 2007)

Adept said:


> Another thing to remember is that fleeing is not an option for all of us.


Good point, *Adept*. This response always gets me, because it assumes everyone who will be attacked is 20, or 30, or even 40. When I was 20, I could run like the wind--even at 40, I was still chasing down teen miscreants at my day job (schools). Now, I can't run like the wind, I just get winded--and long before the bad guys, if they're young. So, better not to turn my back and be overtaken.


----------



## Hand Sword (Jul 25, 2007)

MJS said:


> Many times, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, there are usually two sides. One side says that its impossible to defend against more than one person and that there are no mult. attacker techniques. The other side says that it is possible and that there are techniques or concepts that will and have worked.
> 
> The other part of this is what art stands a better chance of defending against this type of attack? Some will say the grappling arts and others will say the stand up arts have a better chance.
> 
> ...


 
1.Yes it is possible. I've done it, and have seen it done. You will suffer damage. but, it can be done.
2. I honestly don't remember. Kind of just moved.
4. I would go with stand up arts as having the best defense. Basically because you have to stay up when facing multiples. Going down-you're almost certainly done for!
5. Absolutely yes.


----------



## MJS (Jul 25, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> Absobloodylutely. Is it probable? Not very. If they have weapons (and you don't) AND/OR you are with a loved one that is not martially able... You're pretty much ****ed.


 
Came across two articles in my newspaper this morning.  These are two attacks that happened in a city about 10min from where I live.

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hr/hc-6brf0725_2.artjul25,0,4251855.story



> An 18-year-old man told police *three teenagers* robbed him of his laptop computer Monday evening on a South End street.


 

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hr/hc-6brf0725_1.artjul25,0,3596494.story



> A 36-year-old man was stabbed Monday afternoon as he *fought off three men* who attempted to rob him in the city's Blue Hills neighborhood,


 

This city is pretty rough.  I kid you not when I say that a shooting or multiple shootings happen pretty much on a nightly basis.  My point of posting this is that mult. attacks are not as uncommon as they appear.

Mike


----------



## Grenadier (Jul 25, 2007)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:
*
_Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Ronald Shin
-Martialtalk Senior Moderator-


----------



## Last Fearner (Jul 25, 2007)

MJS said:


> Many times, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, there are usually two sides. One side says that its impossible to defend against more than one person and that there are no mult. attacker techniques. The other side says that it is possible and that there are techniques or concepts that will and have worked.


 
This kind of debate always amuses me because of the statement that someone makes saying that its "impossible" to defend against more than one person (MJS, I realize this is not your position, but those that form the "other side" of this debate).

In my view, either they have never been in a multiple attacker fight for real, thus they are "guessing" and speaking from ignorance and inexperience, or they have been in a multiple attacker fight and lost, therefore they are speaking from a lack of skill on how to win such an encounter.

From my experience, I don't have to guess, or "think" that its possible, I know it is because I have done it many times. Of course, it will depend on your level of training and skill, and many variables in the situation (including the skill of your attackers).


So, here are the questions:

1) Is it possible? Yes.

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?
Anything appropriate for that situation. I prefer striking (first with kicks, then with hands, knees and elbows), but I have used restraints, and ground-fighting. Astoundingly, I have used Taekwondo's "flashy" kicks to much success on many occasions. :lol:

As a security professional, I have had to take two people to the ground at the same time in order to stop a fight in a crowd setting, only to have more people try to attack us. I brought them down with grappling, and ended up piling four people on top of one another and holding them all down (not super-human, just tricks my father taught me :ultracool).

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why? Anyone who feels it is not possible needs to expand their training a bit, and their real-world experience. Granted, what others have said is very important. It CAN be very dangerous, especially if you are not specifically trained for it, and even if you are, when weapons are introduced (hidden knives, etc), you are at a great risk of not surviving. However, when it hits the fan, there is often no choice but to fight them all, and you had better be prepared to survive.

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?
As others have stated here, and as a general rule, it is not the art, but the student, and the level of training, along with some good fortune. Avoidance is best. Running is not always an option (IE: if you are older, injured, with family/small children, or are trapped with no escape). Typically, it is not the art, but the method applied. I prefer to stay on my feet, keep my distance, align my opponents, perhaps wipe out one attacker quickly, or use smaller/weaker ones as shields.

However, it has been neglected that arts such as judo do train effectively for multiple attackers. It is part of advanced judo to stay on your feet, redirect your opponent's power to throw them (even into another attacker), and position yourself to continue to sweep, reap, and flip multiple people. If it goes to the ground, a Black Belt Judoka knows how to bring people down, and hurt multiple attackers in the process. The image that most people are locked into is that a grappler has to be wrestling with one person only. That is about as naive as thinking that Taekwondo kicks take you off balance, or are useless in multiple attacker situations - - wrong!!! lol :lfao:

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object) [/quote]
Think "Life-or-Death!" Use whatever is available that works to your advantage. Throw a chair, tip a table, grab a broom, pocket full of change, or a hand full of sand/dirt/gravel. Remove a belt and swing it like a whip! Whatever gets you out of there alive, but the best weapon is your mind, and the best mind is trained in advance.

Keep it real!
Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 25, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> A few comments taken from the responses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's a rule in policework...

Expect to find a weapon, and when you find one, look for the next.

The same idea applies to violent confrontations.  Unless there's only one person around -- if you have to fight one, expect someone else to be looking to help him.

There are tactics for when you know you have more than one opponent -- but even when you only think there is one, you still need to be alert, and deal with them rapidly, and be ready for the next person when you're done.


----------



## Drac (Jul 25, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> There's a rule in policework...
> 
> Expect to find a weapon, and when you find one, look for the next.
> 
> ...


 
Yep...


----------



## MJS (Jul 25, 2007)

Folks,

We're getting a bit off track here.  Lets stick with the questions that I asked in the beginning please!  If the subject of TKD is going to come up, lets discuss the ways TKD deals with multiple attacks.  If anyone is interested in rehashing a TKD debate, take a look at some of the existing TKD threads and continue there.  If someone is interested in discussing another aspect of TKD, start a new thread.


----------



## Sukerkin (Jul 25, 2007)

Quite right, *MJS*, after all, for a number of us, we've already stated that the actual art you've trained in is not particularly relevant.

The core, I think we've established, is to manoever the environment to your advanatge, reduced the numbers of 'bad guys' quickly' and get the heck out of Dodge as soon as you can.  In my one-time-only encounter, I used a whole *three* techniques (a block, a lock and a kick) and the 'fight' lasted a handful of seconds until I got the opening I needed to leg it for the police station.

I would imagine that any art has their version of the techniques I used - except perhaps Judo which has a very different approach than many striking arts.


----------



## Em MacIntosh (Jul 25, 2007)

Practice as best you can for it.  Learn pain tolerence.  Do the best you can to keep you're head clear enough to see what's going on.  Don't let anyone grab a hold of you.  I know this sounds funny but don't be nice, get over the fact that you have to hurt somebody and do it as efficiently as possible.  For some, this is very difficult to overcome.  I won't get into the unofrtunate events of having your significant other or kids there or if you're unable to run.  If there was ever a time to actually do the best you can...


----------



## kidswarrior (Jul 25, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> Practice as best you can for it.  Learn pain tolerence.  Do the best you can to keep you're head clear enough to see what's going on.  Don't let anyone grab a hold of you.  I know this sounds funny but don't be nice, get over the fact that you have to hurt somebody and do it as efficiently as possible.  For some, this is very difficult to overcome.  I won't get into the unofrtunate events of having your significant other or kids there or if you're unable to run.  *If there was ever a time to actually do the best you can...*


*Em*, this made me remember something  one of my Grand Masters used to say all the time: _Losing is not an option_. Now mind you, I would count fighting to a draw against multiples a huge win.


----------



## exile (Jul 25, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> *Em*, this made me remember something  one of my Grand Masters used to say all the time: _Losing is not an option_. Now mind you, I would count fighting to a draw against multiples a huge win.



Right. Victory in that kind of situation amounts to coming out in one reasonably functional piece. As MAists _we_ should know better than to take seriously the chopsockey movie conventions whereby one skilled practitioner demolishes six tough attackers all descending on him or her unexpectedly and attacking from within a foot and a half of us before the indended victim know it. In much less romantic reality, survival itself is victory, under a multiple-assailant attack.


----------



## SKB (Jul 25, 2007)

Tonight we did some training with dealing with multiple attackers and I remembered this post. We did all of the good things people haveposted here and then it dawned on my. "tying the line" from the book of five rings. The answer was something I had read in the book. I suggest everyone read it if you have not, there are lots of good points in there. We are not reinventing the wheel..... someone in history has also thought about it and back then the combat was much more in your face!!!


----------



## Doc_Jude (Jul 26, 2007)

I would urge anyone that doubts the ability of trained fighters or martial artists to deal with multiple opponents to have a little more faith in themselves. As long as they train to be prepared for multi's, they'll have the odds stacked in their favor. 
More often than not, your opponent on the street will not have anywhere near your level of training. The times that I've had to deal with multi's, the guys were obviously not trained. After their initial attack (that failed of course), the training took over & it all went my way. 
Sometimes I think that people overestimate real life. We deal with real life every day. It's not like hordes of ninja are raining upon us from the rooftops. Train for it, rub elbows with folks that have dealt with what the steets can dish out, and you will be vastly more prepared than the average punk or two that think you're an easy mark. It wouldn't be the first time some thug found out too late that they'd bit off more than they could chew


----------



## tntma12 (Jul 26, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> I would urge anyone that doubts the ability of trained fighters or martial artists to deal with multiple opponents to have a little more faith in themselves. As long as they train to be prepared for multi's, they'll have the odds stacked in their favor.
> More often than not, your opponent on the street will not have anywhere near your level of training. The times that I've had to deal with multi's, the guys were obviously not trained. After their initial attack (that failed of course), the training took over & it all went my way.
> Sometimes I think that people overestimate real life. We deal with real life every day. It's not like hordes of ninja are raining upon us from the rooftops. Train for it, rub elbows with folks that have dealt with what the steets can dish out, and you will be vastly more prepared than the average punk or two that think you're an easy mark. It wouldn't be the first time some thug found out too late that they'd bit off more than they could chew


 
I would have to fully agree with you Doc.  As long as you are trained to defend against multi's, an experienced MAist should do fine, as long as you remember your training and dont freeze up.


----------



## Dave Leverich (Jul 26, 2007)

1) Is it possible? 
Most definitely.

2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?
I think a keen awareness of space is essential. Knowing how to use people against other people in terms of attackable space etc. A very acute understanding of distance, very much a key here. One thing I've done since the mid-80's is to every so often go 'class, face me' and proceed to 'wing it' post haste. You quickly learn to pull the close ones in front to use them as human shields for the others, obviously we can't disable our students but I think they learn and I learn, win win. Also, keeping on one's feet I believe to be paramount, you drop you die. Dog pile and it's that unannounced weapon that finds you.

Just as young lions 'play' at hunting, dogs play at fighting etc. As a kid we played at 'Smear the <NON-PC term>'. Meaning, run like your life depended on it, dodge, move, stay still and die. You'll see this in football and other sports as well, I think it's something to not underestimate when it comes to keeping alive.

3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?  
NA

4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?  
Like most have stated, it's not the art, but the artist.

5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)
 It's always a gauge of severity of the situation. But yes, multiple attackers definitely raises the bar and the 'alert status' so to speak.

One thing when it comes to multiple attackers is to change the rythm, the distance etc. Even with two attackers, say one at 12 one at 3, same distance, same speed. You kick the first as your legs are 1 1/2 feet longer, uppercut the second a split-second later, this makes it timing rather than 2 direct attacks simultaneously. Obviously there's a load of 'if this happens' that can be said... but, a wise friend once mentioned to me.. train in the same way you would compete. I translate that also to situational things as this, have a few attack at once, watch your control and power, and have a good time learning how to deal with this.

Sorry if I rambled .


----------



## qi-tah (Jul 26, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> Ok, so all of the above excellent points are somehow dependent on the idea that _you know that there are multiple opponents._
> 
> Here is a kicker to the discussion.....
> 
> ...


 
Good point. Another top reason for staying on yr feet at all costs. Me, i don't feel that i could confidently rely on taking out even one person without fear of retaliation (by either themselves or any lurking mates), so i'd want to keep my skates handy in case things turn ugly. 



Mr. E said:


> *So all these comments about not commiting yourself to one guy.... would it not be safe to say that they are not just for when you know that you are facing multiple opponents, but also when there is any possibility that someone else may join in?* So any move that causes you to go to the ground or otherwise get tied up with just one guy is best saved for people with a lot of backup like police taking down a suspect or bouncers that work in teams?


 
I guess it comes down to awareness over the whole course of the confrontation... There is a concept from the excellent book "The Soft Science of Road Racing Motorcycles" (by Keith Code) whereby you think of yr attention being a $10 bill that you can spend on concentrating on multiple things in yr environment. The idea is to reduce the number of basic functions you need to pay attention to (like exit lines, mates of yr protagonist who might jump in, yr front-line defence techniques etc) so you can *briefly* commit 100% focus to an urgent problem when required. In this analogy, i'd probably be spend my $10 around in 50c lots at all times, so i knew the terrain, then switch to checking a few basic options/parameters in the opening phases of a verbal confrontation (up about $2) and then focus almost solely ($8-10) on my opponent if things actually come to blows, with the strategy being to end it as quickly as possible (by "resoloution" or flight) and return to scanning the environment for further trouble. (50c-$2, depending on circs.)


----------



## still learning (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello, Yes!  Everyone may have a chance to survive an attack by Multiple attackers.  ...Reality!

The question is broad, (we do not know type/size/sitution/who/what/where/why?"S) ....and are you in shape to last lenght of the attack?  Therefore..depends on YOU!

To say one cannot is wrong!  Kenpotex #22- great answers, Doc Jude # 51, Right on!,  and Dave Leverrich- I like your answer's too!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
BEST thing is try practiceing in you Dojo.  Have two, then three,four or more attackers?  ...attack you like on the streets ,as if you were the group fighting one person. Full on...but not full power to hurt your training partners.

NOT sparring style!  ....street attacks...anything goes!  As the practice goes on?  You will learn your weakness and strenghts.

In time....you will learn escaping AS SOON AS POSSIBLE...will be the KEY to survival.

YOU will never always know the  type of attackers fighting you? ...some groups NO skills in fighting...others may have more experience than you! ..or just one may be a train fighter and the rest..just followers? ....WEAPONS? um!

The adrenline will kick in...you will get exhausted faster...THINK- ESCAPE!..NEVER GIVE-UP/NEVER SURRENDER...fight back as hard as you can.

This is hard to do....to be more relax in your fight!  learn to breathe slower, deeper when you can, stay forcus, beaware of possible weapons/ or things that you can use or they can use against you.  Always try to ESCAPE!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pop-up  -  a good skill to learn.  What is it!

crouch/ or bend knees ...pop-up with hands (facing out,one hand on top of other hand.

Strike the nearst/easiest person on attackers shoulders to spin them and clear a path to RUN...This hit must be strong enough to turn that person around. ( if surrounded or cornor before the fists starts to fly!)

It is just only one of the techniques you can use besides NO# 8,456,578 strikes available.  (possible strikes X possible NO of attackers X Number of weapons you have available-left hand,right hand, head butts..ect.)

Formula:  U + R (run) + F (fas-asap) = LAD  (live another day)
(optional) can't run...better learn how to (TYWO)= talk your way out

..........Aloha


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jul 27, 2007)

And Still Learning has helped to justify part of one of my Philosophys. Anyone remember my 10 Preceps of Fighter?


----------



## kidswarrior (Jul 27, 2007)

SKB said:


> Tonight we did some training with dealing with multiple attackers and I remembered this post. We did all of the good things people haveposted here and then it dawned on my. "tying the line" from the book of five rings. The answer was something I had read in the book. I suggest everyone read it if you have not....


OK, now I have to pull it off the shelf and move it to the front of the stack on my desk.  But really, thanks for the reminder, *SKB*.


			
				Doc_Jude said:
			
		

> *I would urge* anyone that doubts the ability of trained fighters or *martial artists* to deal with multiple opponents *to have a little more faith in themselves*. *As long as they train to be prepared for multi's*, they'll have the odds stacked in their favor.
> More often than not, your opponent on the street will not have anywhere near your level of training. The times that I've had to deal with multi's, the guys were obviously not trained. After their initial attack (that failed of course), the training took over & it all went my way.
> Sometimes I think that people overestimate real life. We deal with real life every day. *It's not like hordes of ninja are raining upon us from the rooftops.*


This pretty much is my experience, too, *Doc*.



			
				qi-tah said:
			
		

> In this analogy, i'd probably be spend my $10 around in 50c lots at all times, so i knew the terrain, then switch to checking a few basic options/parameters in the opening phases of a verbal confrontation (up about $2) and then focus almost solely ($8-10) on my opponent if things actually come to blows, with the strategy being to end it as quickly as possible (by "resoloution" or flight) and return to scanning the environment for further trouble. (50c-$2, depending on circs.)


 Great analogy, *qi-tah*.


----------



## JBrainard (Jul 27, 2007)

MJS said:


> 1) Is it possible?


 
Yes, it is. I've seen it done in street fights.



MJS said:


> 2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?


 
What it boils down to is that you need to be able to flow from opponent to opponent very quickly and be able to take out each person with one fast technique or a very fast combo.
You also need to be able to take a punch. This may sound obvious but it is important because if your flow is interrupted then the tide could turn against you.



MJS said:


> 3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?


 
IMHO, groundfighting against multiple opponents sounds like suicide.



MJS said:


> 5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)


 
*I* would, but it's not necessary if you're a good enough fighter.


Not trying to sound like a know-it-all, this is just what I've observed.


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 28, 2007)

JBrainard said:


> *I* would, but it's not necessary if you're a good enough fighter.
> 
> 
> Not trying to sound like a know-it-all, this is just what I've observed.


 
If you're fighting multiple opponents and have the opportunity to grab some sort of helper, and don't -- You're a moron.  And you'll probably get thumped.  Seriously thumped.

It doesn't matter how good a fighter you are; it's a simple reality.  You've only got so many limbs, and can only focus your efforts in so many directions at once.  Weapons are great equalizers...  After all, even if you've only got one bullet in a gun, and are being attacked by a mob -- someone has to be the first one who'll get shot.  It's amazing how few folks are willing to be that first person...


----------



## exile (Jul 28, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Weapons are great equalizers



They're also great force multipliers. Anything you can use to lengthen your reach also multiplies the kinetic energy carried in a single motion of your arm, because the velocity of the `delivery point' is now greater (the further out you go on a revolving disk, the greater the angular velocity of that point, etc.); ah, for the old days when cars had non-retractable antennæ that snapped off readily leaving a nice jagged edge when the top was also snapped off, with plenty of whip...A metal trashcan lid provides both shield and a much harder striking surface if you use it right... and so on.

Your first job is to survive the encounter. Why on earth would anyone hesitate to use a feature of the environment that enhanced their striking power, and more generally, their power to damage_especially_ in the scenario Mike's OP envisaged. Contrary to the saying, outnumbered doesn't _have_ to mean outgunned...


----------



## MJS (Jul 28, 2007)

Regarding the use of a weapon to aid in your defense.  IMO, they have already raised the odds in their favor, so despite how good a fighter I may be, I wouldn't think twice about grabbing whatever was withing my reach.  Just the fact that we had something in our hand, may make them think twice about moving in on us.


----------



## terryl965 (Jul 28, 2007)

MJS said:


> Regarding the use of a weapon to aid in your defense. IMO, they have already raised the odds in their favor, so despite how good a fighter I may be, I wouldn't think twice about grabbing whatever was withing my reach. Just the fact that we had something in our hand, may make them think twice about moving in on us.


 

This I agree on a tash can lid a stick or even a trash bag filled with garbage to swing at them anything and evrything that I could find would be used.


----------



## still learning (Jul 29, 2007)

Hello,  One on one is the best odds,  two against one? ..your odds get smaller (chance of survivial).

Three or more...they have the odds against you.....Las Vegas  anyone?

There will be times when you have to protect yourself against the ODDS....Hopefully your training kicks in!

People do win in Las Vegas...but the odds are in there flavor!  We all (martial artist) do train for multiple attackers.....each sitution will be different when the time comes?   Will we win? or survive? ...depends on you and who the attackers are?

ESCAPE always (RUN FASTER than them) .......Aloha


----------



## Mr. E (Jul 31, 2007)

I think this example shows some of the things advocated here in action.

Turkish fight.


----------



## kidswarrior (Jul 31, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> I think this example shows some of the things advocated here in action.
> 
> Turkish fight.


Have seen this before. I think it also shows that boxing is pretty effective against untrained street attackers, and that weapons are great, but there's little time to drop your eyes to look for them and in the end, the fight _can _be won without them even against multiples. Notice the guy in the white sweater never got up after that right cross he ran into while executing his flying 'ninja' kick.


----------



## Mr. E (Jul 31, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Notice the guy in the white sweater never got up after that right cross he ran into while executing his flying 'ninja' kick.



It looked like a shirt until I saw it again. And he gets knocked to the ground several times while trying to kick. In all cases, someone else rushes forward towards the defender and the fight moves away from him.

But the defender had tried to kick and fell as the guy in white did, then the crowd would have been all over him.

So maybe kicks are not such a good idea in that situation unless you are really stable.


----------



## JBrainard (Jul 31, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> If you're fighting multiple opponents and have the opportunity to grab some sort of helper, and don't -- You're a moron. And you'll probably get thumped. Seriously thumped.
> 
> It doesn't matter how good a fighter you are; it's a simple reality. You've only got so many limbs, and can only focus your efforts in so many directions at once. Weapons are great equalizers... After all, even if you've only got one bullet in a gun, and are being attacked by a mob -- someone has to be the first one who'll get shot. It's amazing how few folks are willing to be that first person...


 
Just to clarify, I'm not advocating the non-use of weapons if they are present. You are correct; to ignore that opportunity would be moronic. What I *am* saying is that one skilled person can fight off multiple attackers without using weapons. And as I said in my post, I know this because I've seen it happen, not in a dojo, on the street.


----------



## Sukerkin (Jul 31, 2007)

Just to play Devils Advocate, I'll restate from my earlier post that to try and use a weapon with which you have not trained is less effective than to use the skills in which you *have* trained.

As it happens, in the one fight I've ever had, I was outnumbered and cornered and one of them was using an improvised weapon (broken bottle).  The chap with the 'weapon' attacked first and possibly because of _what_ he was using and the (assumed) fact that he was not accustomed to it, I was able to read what was coming quickly enough to bypass it.

My teacher in Lau Gar took pains to explain on more than one occaision that sometimes weapon use limits your options and that that was magnified if you were using a weapon with which you had no experience or training.

Of course, the whole balance changes if it's a weapon with which you _are_ trained .


----------



## Doc_Jude (Aug 2, 2007)

As for using "force multipliers" in a SD situation against multiple opponents, this is how easy it can go...
http://www.wkbw.com/news/local/8797557.html


----------



## kaizasosei (Aug 2, 2007)

you know it's reality when you feel the hits coming from all directions..


----------

