# Mr Hayes' original practices of ninjutsu



## Senin (Dec 8, 2005)

I had the great opportunity to exchange emails with Mr Hayes.  I told him that I wondered where his mental/spiritual practices (as outlined in his books) came from since the current Bujinkan did not seem to place a great emphasis on that type of thing. 

Mr Hayes replied that in the early days was a much deeper experience practiced by only a few people.  Mr Hayes stated that he used to stay after class for hours talking with Hatsumi Sensei about all topics ? real fighting, spiritual aspects, secrets of the warrior mind-set, ninja tactics.

Mr Hayes then stated that he went on to seek out additional sources of information beyond the dojo at Hatsumi Sensei?s suggestion. 

By the mid-1980s, the Japanese instructors seemed to choose to reduce emphasis on depth inner training in order to make room for more people who might not be inclined to pursue such depth.

It would seem that the Bujinkan has changed over the years.  The pursuits of the 70's are not the same as the pursuits of the 00's.  Just like the training then is much different than the training now.

I remember it being said that back then the training was hard and never fun.  Now it seems every one has a good time.  

This reminds me of the difference between aikido and aikijutsu.


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## Don Roley (Dec 8, 2005)

Senin said:
			
		

> Mr Hayes then stated that he went on to seek out additional sources of information beyond the dojo at Hatsumi Sensei?s suggestion.



I do not know if Hatsumi really suggested it or if Hayes had a problem with translation, etc. But it is nice to see that he is saying that a lot of what he passed off in the west *did not* come from Hatsumi or was being taught in Japan. This may ease a lot of the friction we see.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 8, 2005)

Senin said:
			
		

> Mr Hayes replied that in the early days was a much deeper experience practiced by only a few people.


 
With no disrespect intended towards Mr Hayes, who is he to say that taijutsu practice can't be just as deep and fulfilling for someone nowadays who doesn't have his training background?



			
				Senin said:
			
		

> Mr Hayes stated that he used to stay after class for hours talking with Hatsumi Sensei about all topics ? real fighting, spiritual aspects, secrets of the warrior mind-set, ninja tactics.


 
Where do you think the post-seminar phrase "and now it's time for a couple of beers and a few truths" came from?



			
				Senin said:
			
		

> By the mid-1980s, the Japanese instructors seemed to choose to reduce emphasis on depth inner training in order to make room for more people who might not be inclined to pursue such depth.


 
Couldn't it just be as simple as this, that people were getting focused on the (perceived or otherwise) spiritual aspects to such an extent that they started neglecting their taijutsu?



			
				Senin said:
			
		

> It would seem that the Bujinkan has changed over the years. The pursuits of the 70's are not the same as the pursuits of the 00's.


 
Whose pursuits?



			
				Senin said:
			
		

> I remember it being said that back then the training was hard and never fun. Now it seems every one has a good time.


 
Tell that to the guy whose arm I thought for a moment I'd broken last weekend when he tried to resist my bodyweight focused on my right knee over his left elbow (I didn't even put pressure on it, mind you - I just jumped forward on my other leg to improve my balance, and down he went).



			
				Senin said:
			
		

> This reminds me of the difference between aikido and aikijutsu.


 
Let me tell you what all the talk of enlightenment sometimes reminds me of...


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## Fallen Ninja (Dec 8, 2005)

I might be inclined to agree. The Togakure video I have shows some pretty extensive physical training. In fact you look and most everyone was well in shape. Now it seems like we have more overweight people in the Bujinkan than Sumo. (intended to be a joke) :rofl:

I have not yet had to practice flipping over swords and other projectiles. And unfortunatley I am a bit flabby around the middle to do some of the stuff on that video. Does it affect my movement... to be determined.

:ninja:


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## cloud (Aug 19, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I do not know if Hatsumi really suggested it or if Hayes had a problem with translation, etc. But it is nice to see that he is saying that a lot of what he passed off in the west *did not* come from Hatsumi or was being taught in Japan. This may ease a lot of the friction we see.



I once had a history teacher who told me exactly what book, what page and what paragraph to get the information from when I ask him for reference to write my essay. Later, he commented that the essay's was not strong enough to support the arguments. It could have been me who wrote an essay in a way that the arument become unsupportive. Or it could be the teacher who suggest incorrect soruce of info. But either way, it is undeniably the teacher responsible for what he suggest the students to get the information, knowing what the students would most likely do with it. My class has about 60 students, meet with the teacher twice a week for 40mins each time and have to direct contact with him really. How many students were in the dojo in the 70's?

Cloud


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## Don Roley (Aug 20, 2006)

cloud said:
			
		

> But either way, it is undeniably the teacher responsible for what he suggest the students to get the information, knowing what the students would most likely do with it.



I do not think that Hatsumi really pushed Hayes to the sources he used and I do not think that a teacher can be held resposible for his students failings. I am what I am only due to the efforts of my teachers. But they are not responsible for my failings. You can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink.


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## eyebeams (Aug 21, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I do not know if Hatsumi really suggested it or if Hayes had a problem with translation, etc. But it is nice to see that he is saying that a lot of what he passed off in the west *did not* come from Hatsumi or was being taught in Japan. This may ease a lot of the friction we see.



Hm. See, the funny thing is that Hayes' teachings resemble Jinenkan and Genbukan teachings in many respects. I remember reading, for example, about "elemental" affinities in Jinenkan techniques despite the fact that Hayes is supposed to have made all of that up. I suppose those styles could have made those sorts of thing up to in an incredible case of parallel development, but then again, it also looks like Hatsumi did indeed teach differently at one time and there is a consistent set of similarities in this differences ("harder" execution of techniques, direct ninjutsu being taught, more overt references to spiritual elements).


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## Don Roley (Aug 21, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> it also looks like Hatsumi did indeed teach differently at one time and there is a consistent set of similarities in this differences ("harder" execution of techniques, direct ninjutsu being taught, more overt references to spiritual elements).



Not according to those that trained with him at the time. Ask one of the Japanese shihan sometime if you get the chance.If you get a good relationship with some of them, they will be glad to tell you about things like this. 

A likely explination is that you saw what you thought you were supposed to see. I know I have done that. We all do it. We get a little bit of information that seems to confirm one tiny aspect of what we believe and somehow look at is as "proof" to the whole theory. Chi no kata does not translate into an "earth" feeling for techniques. I can point to some stuff from a certain school that is supposed to have a feeling of water and waves- but that does not mean that the everything else in the godai is there as well.

And a lot of the people that train in the Genbukan, Bujinkan and Jinenkan started off with Hayes' books. I have feilded questions as a translator from visiting students of the Bujinkan who were asking what type of element a certain stance was. I had to translate the rather blunt comments back about the matter as well. These students were teaching in their countries, so I think a lot of teachers in all the orginizations probably have the same baggage.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 21, 2006)

While Hayes brought alot of people into the Bujinkan.  He unfortunately also misinformed them through his writings.  Fortunately, with so many people living and training in Japan, we now have a more accurate picture of Sokes Hatsumi 's Budo!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## ginshun (Aug 21, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Not according to those that trained with him at the time. Ask one of the Japanese shihan sometime if you get the chance.If you get a good relationship with some of them, they will be glad to tell you about things like this.



So are you confirming / claiming that training with Hatsumi today is virtually the same as the training was in the 70's?


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## eyebeams (Aug 21, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> While Hayes brought alot of people into the Bujinkan. He unfortunately also misinformed them through his writings. Fortunately, with so many people living and training in Japan, we now have a more accurate picture of Sokes Hatsumi 's Budo!
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com



Given that:

1) Hatsumi's traditions didn't even used to have the name they have now, and:

2) That we have film of early Bujinkan practice and accounts that look a lot different (and do look "harder" than they are now and include things like metsubishi)

. . . isn't it reasonable to think, perhaps, that Hatsumi's approach has changed?


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## Bigshadow (Aug 21, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> . . . isn't it reasonable to think, perhaps, that Hatsumi's approach has changed?


Possibly.  However, I must ask you... Are you suggesting that Hatsumi Soke is regressing, somehow what he did 20 years ago is somehow BETTER than what he does today?  It is my opinion that many, including Hayes, didn't know fully what Hatsumi Soke was teaching at THAT time.  Those that stuck with him, figured it out, others didn't, some still don't.  The movement speaks volumes and yes there is plenty of video floating around as evidence.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 21, 2006)

Remember, that Haye's was relatively inexperienced when he first started writing books.  Sure Hatsumi's movement has changed that is called *progress*!  However, to call what training was back then as more or harder than it is now is just not right based on my first hand experiences in Japan or the US for that matter.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 21, 2006)

We'd probably be seeing more of ninjutsu and "harder" applications if Uncle H had higher thoughts of our taijutsu standards.


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## eyebeams (Aug 21, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Remember, that Haye's was relatively inexperienced when he first started writing books. Sure Hatsumi's movement has changed that is called *progress*! However, to call what training was back then as more or harder than it is now is just not right based on my first hand experiences in Japan or the US for that matter.
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com



I'm talking about the general characteristics of the movement, not the severity of training. Whether it's better or worse is not really answerable.


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## eyebeams (Aug 21, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Possibly. However, I must ask you... Are you suggesting that Hatsumi Soke is regressing, somehow what he did 20 years ago is somehow BETTER than what he does today? It is my opinion that many, including Hayes, didn't know fully what Hatsumi Soke was teaching at THAT time. Those that stuck with him, figured it out, others didn't, some still don't. The movement speaks volumes and yes there is plenty of video floating around as evidence.



Changes can have to do with all kinds of things that have nothing to do with a value judgment one way or another.


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## Tengu6 (Aug 21, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Remember, that Haye's was relatively inexperienced when he first started writing books. Sure Hatsumi's movement has changed that is called *progress*! However, to call what training was back then as more or harder than it is now is just not right based on my first hand experiences in Japan or the US for that matter.
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


 
I agree with you Brian, there is plenty of hard training in the Bujinkan.

I have to say though, that having this same arguement over and over everytime a newbie pops up who thinks that have seen the light in To Shin Do is getting very boring.

I was with the Hayes organization for 4 years, both prior to and after To Shin Do was born. I saw how training was and then what it turned into, and I can tell you there is a reason that entire Dojo(s) including Senior members jumped ship and went running to the Bujinkan.

It should be noted that Noguchi and Nagato sensei have stated that training was much harder in the past, however this Soke (Hatsumi at his current level) scares them much more. This comment can be found in "Kokoro no Katachi" by Akira Hino. So dont think "Softer/Harder", think "Smarter/Scarier".

So harder doesnt mean better, just different.

Just my opinion,
markk bush
www.bujinmag.com


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## Don Roley (Aug 21, 2006)

ginshun said:
			
		

> So are you confirming / claiming that training with Hatsumi today is virtually the same as the training was in the 70's?



If we are talking about technique and such, yes.

There will of course be differences in training between large groups of short term students and a small group of people who are well known to you. So the old training could be harsher because Hatsumi knew just how far he could push the envelope with everyone. In some classes that is still the case.

But nobody who trained with him at the time and talks about how the training was harsher say that things were dropped from training like the Godai that Hayes came up with.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 21, 2006)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> I agree with you Brian, there is plenty of hard training in the Bujinkan.
> 
> I have to say though, that having this same arguement over and over everytime a newbie pops up who thinks that have seen the light in To Shin Do is getting very boring.
> 
> ...


 
I am with you on all accounts Markk!  The continuing argument is getting rather tiresome. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 21, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> If we are talking about technique and such, yes.
> 
> There will of course be differences in training between large groups of short term students and a small group of people who are well known to you. So the old training could be harsher because Hatsumi knew just how far he could push the envelope with everyone. In some classes that is still the case.
> 
> But nobody who trained with him at the time and talks about how the training was harsher say that things were dropped from training like the Godai that Hayes came up with.


 
Don, those are some excellent points!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## jks9199 (Aug 21, 2006)

If you'll allow an outsider's perceptions (I don't train in any form of ninjutsu), I suspect that what you will find is that the training "then" versus the training "now" is that it was different.  In some ways, it may have been harder physically, where perhaps today there's a different emphasis on understanding so that the physicality isn't needed as much.  Today, you might be working harder mentally than you would have back then.

Using my own system as an example, when my teacher began training -- it was all about fighting.  They didn't do anything that wasn't directly oriented to fighting.  They trained incredibly hard, and they worked the basics over and over again.  When I started training 20 years ago, we were still pretty hard.  We had a few other things, but you had to put your time in if you wanted to see those.  Today, we've got beginners learning stuff that I waited years to get, from some teachers.  Our chief instructor (who introduced our system to the US) has, in my direct experience, shifted his emphasis many times.  I've seen him emphasizing footwork for years moving to striking or grappling or stretching and healing.  Today, he's moved into a non-violent martial arts approach which I envoy, but know I don't have the mindset for.  But...was training better 20 years ago (or 30 or 50)?  Or just different?


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## cloud (Aug 21, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I do not think that Hatsumi really pushed Hayes to the sources he used and I do not think that a teacher can be held resposible for his students failings. I am what I am only due to the efforts of my teachers. But they are not responsible for my failings. You can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink.


 
Yet if you lead the horse to the water, knowing that it WILL MOST LIKELY drink it and it died from the poison in the water, it could be very diffucult to argue that it is not your responsible at all. A teacher is undoubtedly not totally responsible for teacher's failing, but if the student uses what the teacher refers to and fail, it is either the student false in misuse or the teacher false in misguidance. It is most probable that it is both the teacher and student false. I'd imagine it is too black/white to claim either side to be totally correct and incorrect. The world is often grey.

Cloud


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## Tengu6 (Aug 21, 2006)

cloud said:
			
		

> Yet if you lead the horse to the water, knowing that it WILL MOST LIKELY drink it and it died from the poison in the water, it could be very diffucult to argue that it is not your responsible at all. A teacher is undoubtedly not totally responsible for teacher's failing, but if the student uses what the teacher refers to and fail, it is either the student false in misuse or the teacher false in misguidance. It is most probable that it is both the teacher and student false. I'd imagine it is too black/white to claim either side to be totally correct and incorrect. The world is often grey.
> 
> Cloud


 
Or maybe he horse was too stupid to swallow the water correctly and choked.....no poison after all, and there were numerous horses who drank before and after who are doing just fine.

My horse is better than your horse.

Blah.

markk bush
www.bujinmag.com


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## Zaii (Aug 21, 2006)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> I agree with you Brian, there is plenty of hard training in the Bujinkan.
> http://www.bujinmag.com



Where, and what?


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## Tengu6 (Aug 21, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> Where, and what?


 
Who are you? Are you lost? Should we call someone from the Muay Thai forum?

markk bush
www.bujinmag.com


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## Zaii (Aug 21, 2006)

I'm not lost. I didn't think the forums were exclusive only to people currently training in the style they take their name from. If I've missed something, my apologies.

I was a member of a bujinkan class for two years. In that time, and having visited a few other places of instruction, I saw nothing at all resembling "hard training". I saw dead drills, near useless classical stances, predictable randori, and exaggerated lunging punches. I did learn a few valuable things from my time there, but I also learned a few things that if I tried to apply them in a more realistic setting (which all I constantly hear from the BJK crowd, how "street" effective the techniques are) would have landed me with some hefty injuries and likely a trip to the hospital, not to mention had me looking like an idiot performing such useless things as wide circular blocks, for instance.

I'm not bad mouthing the bujinkan as a whole, and I certainly am not tooting the Toshindo horn, I think stephen hayes is a joke. But I've never seen "hard" training in a bujinkan class, nor do I know anyone who has ever experienced anything resembling it.

So, my genuine question to you was, what, and where?


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## Bigshadow (Aug 21, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> I was a member of a bujinkan class for two years. In that time, and having visited a few other places of instruction, I saw nothing at all resembling "hard training".


There is your answer.   Plus I have to ask, how close of a connection to Japan did your instructors have?  In this training, the game of 6 degrees to Japan doesn't work.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 21, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> I was a member of a bujinkan class for two years. In that time, and having visited a few other places of instruction, I saw nothing at all resembling "hard training".
> So, my genuine question to you was, what, and where?



My inital response to that would have to be "further along in your training than you would get in 2 years."  Ive been at my dojo almost 4, and I have _seen_ some pretty hardcore stuff, but have hardly participated in much of it.

Plus, like anything else, milage varies from Dojo to Dojo, instructor to instructor.  As to your comment that if you tried to use what you had been taught you would get hurt... well, again, that's where you were at at the time... there are numerous, NUMEROUS accounts of Bujinkan students whoes lives were saved, (or the lives of others in one account I can think of) because of their training... So all I can think is you didnt give it enough time. 

Maybe my opinion of this is because I dont belive that the martial arts should be an issue of "Instant Gratification" but that it takes years to master them... if you ever _truly_ master them.


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 21, 2006)

I've only watched a couple of classes at a Bujikan dojo so far, but it was about as hard of training as any I've seen, save maybe the Muay Thai and Boxing I used to do.  Easily as hard as the Kyokishin dojo I was involved with.  A more relaxed atmosphere, but the hard training was there.

Jeff


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## Zaii (Aug 21, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> There is your answer.   Plus I have to ask, how close of a connection to Japan did your instructors have?  In this training, the game of 6 degrees to Japan doesn't work.



The head instructor was kind of a schmuck and it really hit me when I realized that one of our outdoor training sessions had more or less degenerated into LARPing, and I actually left over finding out that most of his training came from RVD. He constantly talked about Japan, being in japan, etc, and mentioned his "upcoming summer trip" that never happened to my knowledge, and the "signed picture" of Hatsumi on the mantle in the dojo wasn't really enough to convince me of anything (nor should it have been), and seemed a little over the top.

I think what bothers me most of all is that the answer I keep getting from people is "train with Hatsumi", which says to me that people are putting all their faith into one man and what he teaches, and that somehow the status of the art lies in one man's hands. Hasn't he even said himself something along the lines of "if you're not training with me, you're not staying current"?

While it certainly isn't universal, an almost cult-like reverence seems to surround the man, and the idea of one man and a small group of instructors with him having some kind of exclusive handle on progress just seems absurd to me.

I also have a lot of trouble stomaching the "ninja-ism", period dress habits (not even japanese per se, it just seems that in general people in the bujinkan like to dress up in costumes a bit too much) that seems to follow the bujinkan, and the ridiculously poor physical shape the majority of practitioners I've seen have been in.

I'm not discounting the possibility that I've simply never seen a decent school, but I also haven't seen anything pointing towards one.



> My inital response to that would have to be "further along in your training than you would get in 2 years." Ive been at my dojo almost 4, and I have _seen_ some pretty hardcore stuff, but have hardly participated in much of it.
> 
> Plus, like anything else, milage varies from Dojo to Dojo, instructor to instructor. As to your comment that if you tried to use what you had been taught you would get hurt... well, again, that's where you were at at the time... there are numerous, NUMEROUS accounts of Bujinkan students whoes lives were saved, (or the lives of others in one account I can think of) because of their training... So all I can think is you didnt give it enough time.
> 
> Maybe my opinion of this is because I dont belive that the martial arts should be an issue of "Instant Gratification" but that it takes years to master them... if you ever _truly_ master them.



I'd like to think that in two years, training in a *martial art*, I'd have a much better conception of how to handle myself than before, but honestly, I didn't learn much that was useful until I left that class.

I'm genuinely curious about there being numerous accounts of bujinkan students saving lives with their techniques (including their own), as I hear this constantly, but I've never actually seen someone tell of their own experiences.

I don't believe in instant gratification in any aspect of life, but like I said, I've learned an infinitely larger amount of practical knowledge and application after having left than I ever did while I was in that school.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 21, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> I'd like to think that in two years, training in a *martial art*, I'd have a much better conception of how to handle myself than before, but honestly, I didn't learn much that was useful until I left that class.



Well, then you were in a bad school, or were not a receptive student... Honestly, it could be either, the guy was genuinly a LARP kinda guy and the training sucked, or you were to hung up on beliving thats what it was and didnt learn.



			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> I'm genuinely curious about there being numerous accounts of bujinkan students saving lives with their techniques (including their own), as I hear this constantly, but I've never actually seen someone tell of their own experiences.



THAT I find difficult to believe, since I hear them often, and have seen the accounts online... if you were genuinly curious you would have seen them by now, or asked some of the people on this board who rely on them in their chosen fields for more info.  I'm not one of them, so I can only recount other peoples stories.



			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> I don't believe in instant gratification in any aspect of life, but like I said, I've learned an infinitely larger amount of practical knowledge and application after having left than I ever did while I was in that school.



Well, then perhaps you just didnt find the art to be right for you.  I have similar stories about my TKD, Hapkido, and BJJ training from back in the day... but the buj stuff "works" for me... so go figure.  Granted, I had to "try on" several buj schools to find the one I like, but hey... thats part of life that doesnt JUST apply to martial arts.


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## Tengu6 (Aug 21, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> I'm not lost. I didn't think the forums were exclusive only to people currently training in the style they take their name from. If I've missed something, my apologies.


 
not exclusive but it helps to have an understanding to contribute IMO



			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> I was a member of a bujinkan class for two years.


 
Not long enough to make those comments IMO



			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> In that time, and having visited a few other places of instruction, I saw nothing at all resembling "hard training". I saw dead drills, near useless classical stances, predictable randori, and exaggerated lunging punches. I did learn a few valuable things from my time there, but I also learned a few things that if I tried to apply them in a more realistic setting (which all I constantly hear from the BJK crowd, how "street" effective the techniques are) would have landed me with some hefty injuries and likely a trip to the hospital, not to mention had me looking like an idiot performing such useless things as wide circular blocks, for instance.


 
I cant judge your experience because I was not there and I do not know what dojo you trained at but I do know that understanding true combat is complex and does not remotely resemble UFC or MMA stuff. I hear so much about "trying a technique on a resisting partner"..... well, this is a perfect example of complete lack of understanding because if your partner is resisting, you have already screwed up because he should not have any clue what is happening. If your instructor was unable to create that feeling with you then you were not given a good example of BBT.



			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> I'm not bad mouthing the bujinkan as a whole, and I certainly am not tooting the Toshindo horn, I think stephen hayes is a joke. But I've never seen "hard" training in a bujinkan class, nor do I know anyone who has ever experienced anything resembling it.
> 
> So, my genuine question to you was, what, and where?


 
Fair enough. if you are genuinely interested, let me know where you are from and I will see if I can point you to a good Dojo, but I must say, what you are calling hard training is just one of many training tools used in the bujinkan and probably will not look as you expect it. But perhaps the instructor could give a better example that you have seen so far.

markk bush
www.bujinmag.com


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## Tengu6 (Aug 21, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> I think what bothers me most of all is that the answer I keep getting from people is "train with Hatsumi", which says to me that people are putting all their faith into one man and what he teaches, and that somehow the status of the art lies in one man's hands. Hasn't he even said himself something along the lines of "if you're not training with me, you're not staying current"?





			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> While it certainly isn't universal, an almost cult-like reverence seems to surround the man, and the idea of one man and a small group of instructors with him having some kind of exclusive handle on progress just seems absurd to me.




Hatsumi moves like no one else in this art, you truely have to feel it as his uke. You have to understand that some scholars in Japan consider him not only the grandmater of Ninjutsu (and 6 Samurai arts) but the Grandmaster of Budo....._that_ is huge. 




			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> I also have a lot of trouble stomaching the "ninja-ism", period dress habits (not even japanese per se, it just seems that in general people in the bujinkan like to dress up in costumes a bit too much) that seems to follow the bujinkan,


 
Never saw anyone in a ninja costume.




			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> and the ridiculously poor physical shape the majority of practitioners I've seen have been in.


 
BBT is veryphysics based and thus stresses "efficiancy" over "strength", so that it why there re more out of shape people than you would see in say BJJ, be careful of the out of shape BBT crowd.......they know they dont have time to play with thier food. heh.




			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> I'd like to think that in two years, training in a *martial art*, I'd have a much better conception of how to handle myself than before


 
If you had the right instructor you would, however you wouldnt 
necessarily be any good at it yet. Perhaps this is what led you to your conclusions.

markk bush
www.bujinmag.com


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## Bigshadow (Aug 21, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> I think what bothers me most of all is that the answer I keep getting from people is "train with Hatsumi", which says to me that people are putting all their faith into one man and what he teaches


Maybe they are seeing something you don't.  It isn't about putting all their faith into one man.  Although, it is that one man who has the most experience in the art.  If things didn't work, how long do you think it would take all the experienced people to figure it out?  I would be quicker to question the other people who claim they have found the way.



			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> While it certainly isn't universal, an almost cult-like reverence seems to surround the man, and the idea of one man and a small group of instructors with him having some kind of exclusive handle on progress just seems absurd to me.


Well he is the source.  It takes resources to get there, it takes prioritizing one's life to have the opportunity to travel to Japan to train with the source.  Naturally, the number of people who do travel there frequently to train are few in comparison, however, it is not nearly as few as you would think.  I know people in my home town who travels to Japan annually and often twice annually.  It isn't a cult.  If it were someone else who was the source and they lived in Anartica, then people would go there.  It would still be comparatively few.



			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> I also have a lot of trouble stomaching the "ninja-ism", period dress habits (not even japanese per se, it just seems that in general people in the bujinkan like to dress up in costumes a bit too much) that seems to follow the bujinkan,


Hmmm... If your talking about wearing tabi, other arts wear them as well.  If you mean dressing up in black masks and running up walls and hanging out trees?  I haven't seen that.



			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> and the ridiculously poor physical shape the majority of practitioners I've seen have been in.


What kind of shape do you expect everyone to be in?   This art can be done by most anyone.  I am not in the shape that my instructor is, but then again, I am a fat boy!  If you think the training should give you an aerobic workout or strength training, your better off at the gym.  



			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> I'm not discounting the possibility that I've simply never seen a decent school, but I also haven't seen anything pointing towards one.


Well, if you don't know what a good school looks like, how are you going to find one?  Just a thought.



			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> I'd like to think that in two years, training in a *martial art*, I'd have a much better conception of how to handle myself than before, but honestly, I didn't learn much that was useful until I left that class.


Your absolutely right, you should have felt you could do something after 2 years.  I agree.  So find a better school, if it is something you truly want to learn.


----------



## Don Roley (Aug 21, 2006)

cloud said:
			
		

> Yet if you lead the horse to the water, knowing that it WILL MOST LIKELY drink it and it died from the poison in the water, it could be very diffucult to argue that it is not your responsible at all. A teacher is undoubtedly not totally responsible for teacher's failing, but if the student uses what the teacher refers to and fail, it is either the student false in misuse or the teacher false in misguidance. It is most probable that it is both the teacher and student false. I'd imagine it is too black/white to claim either side to be totally correct and incorrect. The world is often grey.
> 
> Cloud



Again, I doubt that Hayes was pushed into anything like this.

But I can tell you my experiences in things like this. I have found that if I do a bit of research on my own the Japanese shihan are more likely to help you out than if you show up expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter. Just knowing Japanese seems to open doors for me. Aside from saving the Japanese time and energy, it shows that you are serious about the matter and are willing to work on your own.

Typically my teachers will give me advice and give some broad advice for study. When I do some, I come back and bring the subject up again. When they figure out how much I have done, they start giving me advice to what areas to concentrate on. And the process repeats.

So if you do not do some research on your own and you don't touch base with the Japanese from time to time, you are going to go spinning off in some strange directions. I have seen that happen.

So I can imagine how a comment by Hatsumi about how Hayes should learn about Japanese matters such as religion and history and somehow that is what Hayes is talking about. I give the same advice about learning all you can about Japan, its culture (which includes its religions), and its language.

But the important thing I want everyone to remember is that if you want to present the idea that the contents of  training has changed from the early days, you had better talk to some of the guys that  were around Hatsumi for decades back then.


----------



## Don Roley (Aug 21, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> I saw nothing at all resembling "hard training".



There are groups that train like that in the Bujinkan- especially those that seem to sit on their laurals and don't go out and challenge themselves with things like trips to Japan. But even those that do show up sometimes are not quite as harsh as I think they should.

I had a case where someone that many people here would recognize showed up for my teacher's training. He never came back. A few months later I joked on a mailing list that our training was so off the wall that many people run screaming into the night and never come back. This guy (I was not even aware he was part of the list) shoots back that he never came back because he was scared of getting hurt and not being able to attend any other training in Japan.

I can kind of imagine that reasoning. But I do think that you need to take things to a rougher level with a greater level of danger. My teacher has never given me any injury that made me miss class, nor am I aware of anyone in class missing training because of something he did. But Dale can tell you how he got freaked out within the first few minutes of class when we did taihenjutsu drills.:erg: Of course, Dale is good enough to be pushed like that and the rest of us were known quantities.

You can't do that sort of thing at seminars, because you can't control the level of danger to test people while keeping things reasonably safe.

Wait a second, is any of this really part of *this* thread?


----------



## Zaii (Aug 21, 2006)

I see that I'm likely not going to get anywhere with what I'm after, so I'll just end it now and spare the trouble, and  as has been pointed out the thread has already been drawn off topic anyway. 

There are a lot of things I'd like to address, particularly the comment that I should be wary of the "out of shape bujinkan crowd", but I have a feeling the only thing I'll be doing is stirring up more responses in the same vein.

For the record, I'm not after bujinkan instruction anymore and haven't been for quite some time, I was just curious about what people considered "hard" training in the bujinkan.


----------



## Don Roley (Aug 22, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> I was just curious about what people considered "hard" training in the bujinkan.



For me, any training where a mistake could end up in serious injury or death. Do not expect that at seminars, nor with students that have only been around a few years. Anyone who would do that sort of training with someone that has not been with them so long and so close that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt just how far to push the envelope is a dangerous moron as far as I am concerned.


----------



## Bigshadow (Aug 22, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> I see that I'm likely not going to get anywhere with what I'm after


What is it specifically you are after?  I certainly haven't seen anything thus far in this thread.


----------



## Bigshadow (Aug 22, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> There are a lot of things I'd like to address, particularly the comment that I should be wary of the "out of shape bujinkan crowd",but I have a feeling the only thing I'll be doing is stirring up more responses in the same vein.


We can politely discuss that topic.  Start a new thread on that topic.  Just be polite and you will get politeness back.  I would be happy to discuss that with you.


----------



## Dale Seago (Aug 22, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> But Dale can tell you how he got freaked out within the first few minutes of class when we did taihenjutsu drills.:erg: Of course, Dale is good enough to be pushed like that and the rest of us were known quantities.



No, actually, what freaked me out was trying to do several cross-stepping punches in succession. . .

Seriously though, I can relate to the guy who said he didn't come back because he was afraid he might get hurt and miss out on further training as a result. There was a period where, for a while, whenever I came over I just hoped to survive more-or-less intact.



			
				Zaii said:
			
		

> I'm genuinely curious about there being numerous accounts of bujinkan students saving lives with their techniques (including their own), as I hear this constantly, but I've never actually seen someone tell of their own experiences.



I've done it, so have many others. Here's something that occurred just yesterday from one of my students, who handles security for a nonprofit foundation located in a seedy part of town:



> So... I had to put a guy in the hospital today. It was about a minute to 5:00 pm; and the staff was about to depart en masse. I heard a loud argument right outside the window behind me (not unusual), then the distinct and painful sound of someone getting hit three times in rapid succession thudthud THUD. If you have heard that sound before, you knowhow ugly it is. Anyway, I went to the door, and observed an African-American male, about 6-2 / 200, beating on an Asian male about5-6 /140. The little guy appeared to be putting up a valiant effort, but his nose was bleeding pretty bad. Who started it? Who knows... but they were right in the doorway my staff people needed to use in a few seconds.
> 
> "Get the f@#k out of here!",  I yelled at both of them. "I'vealready called the police!" Actually, I had not, but this didn't seem like a good time to mention it. I took one more step; the little guystarted to fade back, the big guy started coming in. I was in between."I haven't slept in three days, and I can kick BOTH of your asses!" I took one step back, and held my arm up in the universal gesture of "stop". That's when the guy threw the right at me.
> 
> ...




By the way, the student who went through this yesterday is a 48-year-old woman.


----------



## Bigshadow (Aug 22, 2006)

Thanks Dale for such a positive post!  Even though I am convinced regarding our training, it is still wonderful to hear of it in action.


----------



## Dale Seago (Aug 22, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Thanks Dale for such a positive post! Even though I am convinced regarding our training, it is still wonderful to hear of it in action.


 
What she did, BTW, was a _gyaku-zeoi nage_ which sort of got interrupted by the wall as the guy's arm broke. . .


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 22, 2006)

Nice story Dale!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 22, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Plus I have to ask, how close of a connection to Japan did your instructors have? In this training, the game of 6 degrees to Japan doesn't work.


 
People who don't visit Japan several times a year are most often much "harder" in their approach.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 22, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> While it certainly isn't universal, an almost cult-like reverence seems to surround the man, and the idea of one man and a small group of instructors with him having some kind of exclusive handle on progress just seems absurd to me.


 
They are, however, THE source of information regarding Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is what we are mainly interested in.

Besides - I've said this before and I might as well say it again - not many things have made me so proud of being where I'm currently at as the time when my teacher said that it should be the responsibility of the instructor to make sure that everyone is fit enough to push themselves beyond their current limits.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 22, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> People who don't visit Japan several times a year are most often much "harder" in their approach.


 
Sometimes yes, sometimes no!  It really all depends on the individual instructor.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## lalom (Aug 22, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> They are, however, THE source of information regarding Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is what we are mainly interested in.
> 
> Besides - I've said this before and I might as well say it again - not many things have made me so proud of being where I'm currently at as the time when my teacher said that it should be the responsibility of the instructor to make sure that everyone is fit enough to push themselves beyond their current limits.


 
I seem to have lost the point of this thread somewhere in my following these posts.  What is the intention of this thread?


----------



## Zaii (Aug 22, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> What is it specifically you are after?  I certainly haven't seen anything thus far in this thread.



I asked what was considered "hard" training in the bujinkan, and as an aside, where one might claim to find it, and thus far only received one straight answer. That one was from Don Roley.


----------



## Koinu (Aug 23, 2006)

ginshun said:
			
		

> So are you confirming / claiming that training with Hatsumi today is virtually the same as the training was in the 70's?




Reading this type of refuse on BBS makes me laugh.

(1) Do you really think that any teacher can run large open classes to people who can range from visitors, mukyu's to Shihan and teach them all hard and nasty stuff when he would know less than 10% of those present personally and at what level of skills or control they may or may not possess?

(2) As most of us including Mr Hayes would fall into the above demographic , what would any of US know about what and or how hard the inner circle is trained then,  now or into the future ?


----------



## Bigshadow (Aug 23, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> I asked what was considered "hard" training in the bujinkan, and as an aside, where one might claim to find it, and thus far only received one straight answer. That one was from Don Roley.


Hmmm....  Maybe many of us agreed with Don and didn't feel the need to repeat and clutter the thread.   I agreed with what he said, so in my case that is why I didn't put forth my own opinion.  Plus he said it better.


----------



## ginshun (Aug 23, 2006)

Koinu said:
			
		

> Reading this type of refuse on BBS makes me laugh.
> 
> (1) Do you really think that any teacher can run large open classes to people who can range from visitors, mukyu's to Shihan and teach them all hard and nasty stuff when he would know less than 10% of those present personally and at what level of skills or control they may or may not possess?
> 
> (2) As most of us including Mr Hayes would fall into the above demographic , what would any of US know about what and or how hard the inner circle is trained then,  now or into the future ?




Why not try to be consistant and make sense.  In point number one you question whether or not anybody could teach "hard and nasty" techniques to people they don't know well, and then in the next breath you basically claim that nobody even knows whether or not there was any hardcore training in the past or now.

So what exactly is your answer to my question?  Was training hardcore in the past and isn't anymore or was it never harcore?  Or was it always somewhere inbetween?

In the midst of your condescention you seem to have completely forgoten to actually answer the question.  I asked a very staightforward question of Mr. Roley, there is no need to be nasty or insulting in answering it.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 23, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Hmmm.... Maybe many of us agreed with Don and didn't feel the need to repeat and clutter the thread.  I agreed with what he said, so in my case that is why I didn't put forth my own opinion. Plus he said it better.


 
Ditto.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## Koinu (Aug 23, 2006)

ginshun said:
			
		

> Why not try to be consistant and make sense.



Made perfect sense to me your mileage may vary !



			
				ginshun said:
			
		

> In point number one you question whether or not anybody could teach "hard and nasty" techniques to people they don't know well,


Yes 



			
				ginshun said:
			
		

> and then in the next breath you basically claim that nobody even knows whether or not there was any hardcore training in the past or now.



where exactly did I say NOBODY ? I said most of us !



			
				ginshun said:
			
		

> So what exactly is your answer to my question?  Was training hardcore in the past and isn't anymore or was it never harcore?  Or was it always somewhere in between ?



I have none, as I was not training in the 70's .



			
				ginshun said:
			
		

> In the midst of your condescention you seem to have completely forgoten to actually answer the question.  I asked a very staightforward question of Mr. Roley, there is no need to be nasty or insulting in answering it.



And as far as I can see Don has answered your question. If you have any further I suggest going to one of Soke's or the Shihans classes and ask them in person.

What I will say though is that my instructor is GENERALLY light and friendly and does not break you 
things only tend to get REAL hard and nasty when people try him out (I have many times and paid for it heavily).
So therefore it may well hold true that in that period of time many of the Gaijin (most whom had trained for many years in other arts) were trying out the new Soke of the Bujinkan and he responded with a lesson they would not soon forget. Food for thought eh !


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Aug 23, 2006)

From the horses mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T50WRzzbhlY&mode=related&search=


----------



## Don Roley (Aug 23, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> From the horses mouth.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T50WRzzbhlY&mode=related&search=



There was a thread on another site that really got nasty over that clip. The end result seems to be that Hayes might be trying to put as good a light on his training as he can. But when you ask the Japanese if anything has been dropped or added from training, they disagree. The only difference is in the harshness.


----------



## Zaii (Aug 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Hmmm....  Maybe many of us agreed with Don and didn't feel the need to repeat and clutter the thread.   I agreed with what he said, so in my case that is why I didn't put forth my own opinion.  Plus he said it better.



So.....many people felt the need to make lengthy replies that all came *before* his save for one....yet didn't want to clutter the thread by "repeating what he said". Eh? People took the time to wax at length about a myriad of topics before he replied, thus, they wouldn't have his opinion to repeat. The logic escapes me here.


----------



## Don Roley (Aug 24, 2006)

Zaii said:
			
		

> So.....many people felt the need to make lengthy replies that all came *before* his save for one....yet didn't want to clutter the thread by "repeating what he said". Eh? People took the time to wax at length about a myriad of topics before he replied, thus, they wouldn't have his opinion to repeat. The logic escapes me here.



It is simple. If there is something new to be gained by relating experience then people will say something. But if it is short and  sweet like a definition, then  people look a little silly by posting with "I agree."

If you ask opinions, everyone will chime in. If you ask definitions, then as soon as the right one is posted people will be satisfied with that.


----------



## MrFunnieman (Aug 24, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> There was a thread on another site that really got nasty over that clip.


 
Don, out of curiosity, what was the controversy over the clip?  Were some people thinking Hayes embellished his early experiences?  That would be my initial reaction after watching the clip.  The times I heard him talk or in conversations I had with him, that's his standard story.  Personally, I think he puts his theater skills to work


----------



## Don Roley (Aug 24, 2006)

Let us leave that thread for that forum. I have seen some people take threads from other forums and turned them into debate on others. I don't think the moderators of either like that.

I only mentioned it because Blotan Hunka posted the clip and said it was straight from the horses mouth. I think that only Hatsumi can really be counted on as being the one source to go to on the matter. You seem to think that Hayes embellished his early experiences and it would be in his best interest to do so. Many others have pointed out the same concerns.

If you really want to know about the matter, contact Ben Cole by PM and see if he wants to talk about it.


----------



## ginshun (Aug 24, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> If you really want to know about the matter, contact Ben Cole by PM and see if he wants to talk about it.



Actually that should read:

"If you want to hear Stephen Hayes bad mouthed, contact Ben Cole by PM and see if he wants to talk about it"


----------



## Cryozombie (Aug 24, 2006)

Would you guys please ****ing stop.

Thank you.

This whole Hayes is GOD/Hayes SUCKS argument is So overdone, old, passe, lame and just a pain in the ***.  No Hayes people will admit hes wrong, and most Bujinkan guys wont admit hes right, so lets ****ing drop it.


----------



## lalom (Aug 24, 2006)

Thank you Techno!  Couldn't have said it better.


----------



## eyebeams (Aug 25, 2006)

Again, when I said "hard" I was referring to the style of movement, not the intensity of training.


----------



## Don Roley (Aug 25, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> This whole Hayes is GOD/Hayes SUCKS argument is So overdone, old, passe, lame and just a pain in the ***.  No Hayes people will admit hes wrong, and most Bujinkan guys wont admit hes right, so lets ****ing drop it.



Don't know if that was directed at me. But if it is, I think I should point out that I was just trying to counter the idea that Hayes had a monopoly on the truth.

This is yet another case where someone posts something from Hayes and I say that it just does not jive with some of the stuff I have heard in Japan recently. The last time ended up with Hayes' name being taken down and a huge flame war here. I do not want another war. But there has been some buzzing here in Japan about Hayes over the summer and I would caution about accepting his version of things.

In any case, if you really doubt my word and want a straight answer, I think you can find some way to ask Hatsumi directly about the matter and keep the fireworks off of this board. Trust me, get him alone to ask him and he will not hesitate to give you an answer about early training in the Bujinkan.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Aug 28, 2006)

Just a slight tangent.

What is SKH's status as a/the leader of the "ninja boom"? I remember the 70's-80's when SKH hit the scene in the US and how the craze for anything "ninja" started up, predominantly on his back here in the US. How much credit or respect does the man deserve, regardless of the current unpleasantness, for the popularity, worldwide status of the art today? 

As a person whos experience in ninjutsu/bujinkan is limited to books and info on art politics limited to the internet I was just wondering.


----------



## Koinu (Aug 28, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Just a slight tangent.
> 
> What is SKH's status as a/the leader of the "ninja boom"? I remember the 70's-80's when SKH hit the scene in the US and how the craze for anything "ninja" started up, predominantly on his back here in the US. How much credit or respect does the man deserve, regardless of the current unpleasantness, for the popularity, worldwide status of the art today?



This comes up quite often and there are like always going to be many points of view, Some valid some not and like all things the valid points even though they may differ are all still valid.
IMHO He was just the messenger who many people confused with the Message !


----------



## ginshun (Sep 8, 2006)

I am sorry, I am not trying to cause any problems.  I just think refereing somebody who is looking for information on Steve Hayes to Ben Cole is rediculous.

Its about the same as somebody looking for information on President Bush and somebody else telling them to go ask Howard Dean.

Sure, you'll get information, I just want that person to realize what type of information they can expect to get.


----------



## lalom (Sep 8, 2006)

Good point.  And to ask Hatsumi Sensei about Hayes is not the best advise either IMO.  Obviously, he has some issues with him.  Neither side will ever see eye to eye.  And in the grand scheme of martial arts, it really doesn't matter.

We just need to get back to training.  Those that seek Hatsumi Sensei's art will - those that seek An-Shu Hayes' art will as well.


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 9, 2006)

lalom said:


> Good point.  And to ask Hatsumi Sensei about Hayes is not the best advise either IMO.  Obviously, he has some issues with him.



I do not understand that logic at all.

If you want to say that Hayes and Hatsumi are still on good terms, then saying that you should not confirm this with Hatsumi due to issues is...... well.... contradictory.

And considering that Hayes claims Hatsumi as his teacher, the best way that you can find out what Hayes claims is true or not is to go to the person who supposably taught him. If you try to say that Hatsumi would actually lie about something like this, I don't think you will get a good reception. And if you think that Hatsumi would lie about the matter, why automatically assume that Hayes would be more honest? Would it not be in his best interest to add extra qualifications to his story?


----------



## lalom (Sep 10, 2006)

I think what my main point was:  It doesn't matter.  It is very possible that neither of these men will give a real, honest answer.  It is also very possible that either of them care what we think.  Seems, IMO, like they have a problem with each other.  It's between them.  I choose to leave it there.


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 11, 2006)

lalom said:


> I think what my main point was:  It doesn't matter.  It is very possible that neither of these men will give a real, honest answer.  It is also very possible that either of them care what we think.



Are you joking? I do not know how you can think that Hayes does not care what other people think about his relationship with Hatsumi. Did you miss the little storm over what he was putting on his web site? I do not believe you can say with a straight face that Hatsumi would take down Hayes' name from the training board in public and not care if people know what he thinks about Hayes.

And if you had been here in Japan at all in the last few months, you could make a decision from a more knowledgable position. Have you ever met either person? If not, how are you so certain as to what they really think?

And I am pretty sure that Hatsumi would be able to give us an honest answer as to what he has taught students in the past. I trust him. I know some people he does not like, but still acknowledges their accomplishments.


----------



## saru1968 (Sep 11, 2006)

lalom said:


> I think what my main point was: It doesn't matter. It is very possible that neither of these men will give a real, honest answer. It is also very possible that either of them care what we think. Seems, IMO, like they have a problem with each other. It's between them. I choose to leave it there.


 

Its does matter when one claims to be a current student and is not.

Simply put a lie.

Even if SKH was still a student, the lack of actual time invested in training in Japan at Honbu in the last ten years means he is completely off track anyhow.


----------



## Anti-hero Zero (Dec 9, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Remember, that Haye's was relatively inexperienced when he first started writing books. Sure Hatsumi's movement has changed that is called *progress*! However, to call what training was back then as more or harder than it is now is just not right based on my first hand experiences in Japan or the US for that matter.
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


 
No disrespect intended Mr. VanCise, but didn't your training in ninjutsu begin approximately between 1990-1993 (13-16 years ago) according to what appears to be your own dojo website located here:  
http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com/instructors.html

How is that you can personally confirm how ninjutsu was taught in the 70's?  Some people believe that ninja can harness what the CIA would later term "remote viewing"...  is this post-event remote viewing an example of how good you are?

On a side note, I do have a quite a bit of respect for the Filipino martial arts.  I wish you the best and hope you keep up the good training.

Bows,
AH


----------



## Don Roley (Dec 10, 2006)

Anti-hero Zero said:


> How is that you can personally confirm how ninjutsu was taught in the 70's?  Some people believe that ninja can harness what the CIA would later term "remote viewing"...  is this post-event remote viewing an example of how good you are?



Sheath the claws, please.

No one seems to think that Brian is _personally_ confirming that training was the same. But the sources he has and evidence all seem point to that. I myself cannot _personally_ confirm that there is a country called China, having never been there. But I feel just about as confident in saying it exists as Brian is in saying that the training has not changed.

And if you doubt his word, perhaps you should ask those guys teaching in Japan who were around at the time. Or view clips from that period. They all seem to back up what Brian and others are saying.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 10, 2006)

Anti-hero Zero said:


> No disrespect intended Mr. VanCise, but didn't your training in ninjutsu begin approximately between 1990-1993 (13-16 years ago) according to what appears to be your own dojo website located here:
> http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com/instructors.html
> 
> How is that you can personally confirm how ninjutsu was taught in the 70's? Some people believe that ninja can harness what the CIA would later term "remote viewing"... is this post-event remote viewing an example of how good you are?
> ...


 
I confirm with what I have been told by my seniors in the art.  Their words are more than good enough for me.  On a side note there are also video clips of training during that time period and that training is like what I have personally witnessed in Japan.


----------



## lalom (Dec 10, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Are you joking? I do not know how you can think that Hayes does not care what other people think about his relationship with Hatsumi. Did you miss the little storm over what he was putting on his web site? I do not believe you can say with a straight face that Hatsumi would take down Hayes' name from the training board in public and not care if people know what he thinks about Hayes.
> 
> And if you had been here in Japan at all in the last few months, you could make a decision from a more knowledgable position. Have you ever met either person? If not, how are you so certain as to what they really think?
> 
> And I am pretty sure that Hatsumi would be able to give us an honest answer as to what he has taught students in the past. I trust him. I know some people he does not like, but still acknowledges their accomplishments.


 
For you I understand why it would matter.  Like some here and other boards - they spend so much of their efforts trying to be the next internet Soke.  Then it would matter.

But for those just interested in training, it won't and doesn't.  What we think doesn't change anything about our training in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 10, 2006)

I will say it once again that Stephen Hayes truly helped to bring Budo Taijutsu (Soke's fantastic brand of martial science) out into the limelight and for that I am grateful to him.  He has now gone his own way and that is that.  I choose to train in the Bujinkan and am happy to do so but if someone is training in To Shin Do then I hope they are happy as well.


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## Bigshadow (Dec 10, 2006)

_Mod. Note._ 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-David Russ
-MT Moderator-


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## Don Roley (Dec 10, 2006)

lalom said:


> For you I understand why it would matter.  Like some here and other boards - they spend so much of their efforts trying to be the next internet Soke.  Then it would matter.
> 
> But for those just interested in training, it won't and doesn't.  What we think doesn't change anything about our training in the grand scheme of things.



Listen to the moderator warning please.

But it does matter to someone who wants to train. If they see what they want in Toshindo, fine. But if they think that what they are getting with Toshindo is what is being taught in Japan, then they are wrong. If they think that things like Hayes' Godai was somehow based on something Hatsumi used to teach, then it is important to inform them of the truth.


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## lalom (Dec 11, 2006)

Again, none of what this thread has lead up to matters.  What Hatsumi Soke and SKH have between them are personal issues that are none of our business in the grand scheme of things.  

You say it matters "to someone who wants to train."  Absolutely wrong.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point which has taken obvious turn here.  If someone indeed wants to train.  All they have to do is one thing... train.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

Whichever style of taijutsu one would desire to train in is a personal choice.  I believe you've alluded to the same thing.  However, what Soke and SKH have between them should be of no concern to us and should have no bearing on our training.

If someone desires to train in a Japanese methodology, go to Japan or find many of the Bujinkan Budo schools.  If one desires to have a "westernized" delivery/format in their training, train in TSD or find one of the various Bujinkan schools that use the Kasumi-An Bujinkan curriculum.

Listen to the moderator warning please.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 11, 2006)

lalom said:


> If someone desires to train in a Japanese methodology, go to Japan or find many of the Bujinkan Budo schools. If one desires to have a "westernized" delivery/format in their training, train in TSD or find one of the various Bujinkan schools that use the Kasumi-An Bujinkan curriculum.


 
That's assuming they're smart and patient enough to do enough research to differentiate between the two. When I see a new crop of beginners show up these days, I either think "great, another bunch of people with zero ability to do critical thinking" or "here's a new bunch of late 30something guys so satisfied with themselves that they'll never lay off their Shotokan mannerisms".


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## lalom (Dec 11, 2006)

Nimravus, I concur...


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## Cryozombie (Dec 11, 2006)

lalom said:


> Whichever style of taijutsu one would desire to train in is a personal choice.  I believe you've alluded to the same thing.  However, what Soke and SKH have between them should be of no concern to us and should have no bearing on our training.



I disagree with this for the simple reason that people SHOULD be aware of it so that they dont make a mistake that could cost them face in the future.  I dont think this sort of thing applies just to the Bujinkan/Toshindo thing, but in many arts, or your job, or even relationship...


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## mystic warrior (Dec 11, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I will say it once again that Stephen Hayes truly helped to bring Budo Taijutsu (Soke's fantastic brand of martial science) out into the limelight and for that I am grateful to him. He has now gone his own way and that is that. I choose to train in the Bujinkan and am happy to do so but if someone is training in To Shin Do then I hope they are happy as well.


That would be great sir if more people were like that. However every person thinks that there thoughts on any matter are the only one that count.
And I am sure long after this post dies there will be another one on this forum or MAP or others just like this.
Because as I have see on these things people LOVE to beat a dead horse. And what kills me is, Soke has told people to let this die. However no seems to care what he has to say otherwise post like this would not happen.
But it seems like there are to many people with way to much time on there hands and it could be better spent on training. But that is just me. And i am sure I will be blown off by the rest of the readers.
But just think of it this way. For a Soke that you all claim to love so much. Why are you all going against his wishes. It would seem like alot of lip service is being payed to a great man. But not much else.


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## ghengis.john (Dec 11, 2006)

Cryozombie said:


> I disagree with this for the simple reason that people SHOULD be aware of it so that they dont make a mistake that could cost them face in the future. I dont think this sort of thing applies just to the Bujinkan/Toshindo thing, but in many arts, or your job, or even relationship...


 
This post reminds me of an aikido seminar I once attended featuring a prominent aikido instructor from Japan. All the US aikido students revered this man like he was a god, and they hung on his every word. Being new to aikido I wasn't as star-struck as everyone else and I simply spoke to this sensei like he was just a normal guy. He chose to sit next to my fiancée' and I during dinner and this made all the other US students jealous. It all seemed rather petty and disingenuous to me. Now I think of that poor old Japanese teacher while reading these posts and I feel sorry for Hatsumi sensei.


Now I don't mean to get crazy with the cheez whiz here, but do you think it's possible that maybe Hatsumi soke is just a guy? Here's something to blow some minds: if Hatsumi sensei had treated every word Takamatsu soke had ever spoken as gospel, then Hatsumi would never have taught ninjutsu to non-Japanese students and this entire argument would be a moot point.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 11, 2006)

ghengis.john said:


> This post reminds me of an aikido seminar I once attended featuring a prominent aikido instructor from Japan. All the US aikido students revered this man like he was a god, and they hung on his every word. Being new to aikido I wasn't as star-struck as everyone else and I simply spoke to this sensei like he was just a normal guy. He chose to sit next to my fiancée' and I during dinner and this made all the other US students jealous. It all seemed rather petty and disingenuous to me. Now I think of that poor old Japanese teacher while reading these posts and I feel sorry for Hatsumi sensei.
> 
> 
> Now I don't mean to get crazy with the cheez whiz here, but do you think it's possible that maybe Hatsumi soke is just a guy? Here's something to blow some minds: if Hatsumi sensei had treated every word Takamatsu soke had ever spoken as gospel, then Hatsumi would never have taught ninjutsu to non-Japanese students and this entire argument would be a moot point.



You are missing the Point.  My post was in reference to how Hatsumi said Dont Train with Hayes or in Toshindo if you are in the Bujinkan.

Explain how honoring that request is Treating him like a God?


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## Cryozombie (Dec 11, 2006)

mystic warrior said:


> Why are you all going against his wishes. It would seem like alot of lip service is being payed to a great man. But not much else.



Because every other day someone from Hayes camp pops up proclaiming everyone in the Bujinkan is wrong, Hayes is still Bujinkan, and it IS ok to crosstrain if you are Bujinkan.

If Hayes and his people would accept this is wrong and drop these untruths, we would not need to keep talking about it to set the record straight for Bujinkan students who might get confused.


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## ghengis.john (Dec 11, 2006)

Cryozombie said:


> You are missing the Point. My post was in reference to how Hatsumi said Dont Train with Hayes or in Toshindo if you are in the Bujinkan.
> 
> Explain how honoring that request is Treating him like a God?


 
Personally, I feel that hanging on and honoring every word that Hatsumi soke utters is a bit irrational. This same irrational behavior is evident in almost every martial art, every church, and just about every human institution that I've ever come into contact with. I believe that most humans want to elevate some "enlightened" person to do all their hard thinking for them. So, when I suggested that your post appeared devotedly religious in nature, I was simply using religion as an archetype for any blind devotion.

Now, my point is this: train with who you want to train with. Hatsumi soke doesn't have to sanction your daily breakfast choice does he? Why should it be any different with what school of thought (ninjutsu) you choose to explore each day? People who choose to learn under two different schools of ninjutsu simultaneously will only confuse their own training.


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## Don Roley (Dec 12, 2006)

ghengis.john said:


> Now, my point is this: train with who you want to train with. Hatsumi soke doesn't have to sanction your daily breakfast choice does he? Why should it be any different with what school of thought (ninjutsu) you choose to explore each day?



I could not disagree more. If you are training in the Bujinkan and expect Hatsumi to be your teacher, you have to respect his wishes on certain things or be ready to walk out the door.

If you come to him with the request to teach you something, is it not reasonable that you respect his request on how and who you train with?

If you don't like it, you don't have to stick around. We won't miss you. I can respect someone who says he does not like the expectations put on him and leaves. I do not respect someone who expects others to fill their roles but won't responding in kind.

If someone likes Hayes more than Hatsumi, I can respect that. But they should know all the fact to make an informed decision. And it also stops a lot of the problem of people trying to post things under a false impression here. As long as people understand that a lot of what Hayes teaches does not come from Hatsumi despite the impression they may get, then the potential for flame wars decreases a lot.

And on a side note, I do not think that John's (cryofthezomobie) comments were anything other than common sense. No religious aspects or failure to critically think. I further do not see anything in what Takamatsu said that would have prevented Hatsumi from teaching non Japanese. You do not seem to be making much of a good impresion so far. Maybe if you were more careful that would change.


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## Arachne (Jan 23, 2007)

Please make some space in your private message box.


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## Kreth (Jan 24, 2007)

Arachne said:


> Please make some space in your private message box.


Who is this addressed to?


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## Bigshadow (Jan 24, 2007)

Probably Don.   I tried to PM Don a couple days ago and it was full.


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## Seattletcj (Jan 24, 2007)

ghengis.john said:


> I believe that most humans want to elevate some "enlightened" person to do all their hard thinking for them. So, when I suggested that your post appeared devotedly religious in nature, I was simply using religion as an archetype for any blind devotion.



I have found it useful when looking at different martial arts styles and religions to apply the B.I.T.E test.

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm


If you are checking off numerous things from the list, it should raise a red flag. Maybe something to think about. Maybe not.
As the site says "It is not necessary for every single item on the list to be present."

P.S- I'm not referring to anyone or anything specifically. Just some info I personally find useful.


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## ToShinDoKa (Nov 9, 2007)

Fallen Ninja said:


> I might be inclined to agree. The Togakure video I have shows some pretty extensive physical training. In fact you look and most everyone was well in shape. Now it seems like we have more overweight people in the Bujinkan than Sumo. (intended to be a joke) :rofl:
> 
> I have not yet had to practice flipping over swords and other projectiles. And unfortunatley I am a bit flabby around the middle to do some of the stuff on that video. Does it affect my movement... to be determined.
> 
> :ninja:


Oh God, that comment at the end of the first paragraph caught me off guard.  Uncalled for perhaps, but funny as heck!


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## kwaichang (May 7, 2008)

Just found this topic:

I trained with SKH and Hatsumi Sensei in the 80's, in Japan.....ground is VERY HARD.

The training was very physical and no one was out of shape.

SKH has said in the past (I was there) that teaching Americans is different from teaching Japanese and he was given permission to start his own teachings here.

Ninjitsu is an historical art and jumping over swords, etc. is integral to understanding its roots, if not completely applicable in todays streets and alley ways.


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## Kreth (May 7, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> I trained with SKH and Hatsumi Sensei in the 80's, in Japan.....ground is VERY HARD.


 and


> Ninjitsu is an historical art and jumping over swords, etc. is integral to understanding its roots, if not completely applicable in todays streets and alley ways.


Just curious why, with comments like the above, and being a "personal student of Stephen K Hayes (from your profile), you consistently spell the name of the art incorrectly? :idunno:


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## kwaichang (May 7, 2008)

Kreth said:


> and
> 
> Just curious why, with comments like the above, and being a "personal student of Stephen K Hayes (from your profile), you consistently spell the name of the art incorrectly? :idunno:


 
Your question is legitimate, however, if you "google" ninjitsu, you'll see that it is spelled both ways.

When I trained and for years the art was called Ninjitsu. In fact, in the "Hawk" video I have from the late 80's, even Stephen pronounced it that way. I know that his books always spelled it Ninjutsu but old habits are hard to break. It can also be called Togakure Nin-Po Taijutsu, while SKH.s new name for HIS art is To-Shin Do.
It is the same art just as Togakure villagers decided decades ago to change the pronounciation of their village to discourage "ninja seekers" from trampling all over the mountain.

Train well; fall easy.

 Stephen and I photos from "Lore of the Shinobi Warrior" Vol V, 1989, Ohara Publications


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## Bigshadow (May 7, 2008)

Out of curiosity, what is the significance of the picture?


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## kwaichang (May 7, 2008)

Bigshadow said:


> Out of curiosity, what is the significance of the picture?


 
Oh, just credibility.:shrug:

In the book it's used to show how you use what ever is thrown at you and don't anticipate.


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## Bigshadow (May 7, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Oh, just credibility.:shrug:
> 
> In the book it's used to show how you use what ever is thrown at you and don't anticipate.



Oh, so that is you with Hayes?  Sorry, wasn't trying to call you out, just it was out of context, I suppose.  Cool!


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## kwaichang (May 7, 2008)

Yeah, I edited the text in my original post so it would be more clear.

Thanks.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 7, 2008)

Nice pictures by the way.  I do not think anyone is calling you out or discounting that you practiced with Stephen but using the *Ninjitsu* (the the extra i) spelling generally means that the person has trained with the neo ninjer's.  It is almost always a clear give away. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Fortunately for you that is not the case but I would not use that spelling much if you want to be taken seriously.


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## lalom (May 8, 2008)

Very nice pics!  Love the book too!


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## kwaichang (May 8, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would not use that spelling much if you want to be taken seriously.


 
Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death.

No worries, after 30yrs I don't take anything seriously.


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## bigfootsquatch (May 11, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death.
> 
> No worries, after 30yrs I don't take anything seriously.


 
What do you think about the new study-at-home blackbelt Toshindo program Mr. Hayes has now? I've been wanting opinions from his older students and training partners, and now I found one!


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## kwaichang (May 11, 2008)

To be honest, I've not looked at the program.  The idea of study at home at first seems odd. The web page says: "Train on your own, or test for colored belts by video (which means you do the techniques with someone, tape it, and send it in to him) and then take your Black Belt test at one of An-shu Stephen K. Hayes' testing seminars."

Now I have known a few people who have studied a martial art (not SKH's) on their own and then when they found a dojo, tested and did quite well, attaining a decent ranking.
However, training on your own and then going to a seminar to be tested for black belt, seems risky at best; both time and money spent could be waisted.
You can join SKH forum and submit questions to him and other members of the schools at
http://www.skhquest.com/forum.php
This would be your best opportunity to find out from SKH directly how it works.  He's always given strict tests in the past so I'm a bit curious myself.


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## kwaichang (May 11, 2008)

FAQ on SKH's training at distance can be found:

http://www.skhquest.com/articles/DVDquestions.php

And the time involved is about 4 yrs.

http://www.skhquest.com/articles/videotestingforbelts.php


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## ToShinDoKa (May 12, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> To be honest, I've not looked at the program. The idea of study at home at first seems odd. The web page says: "Train on your own, or test for colored belts by video (which means you do the techniques with someone, tape it, and send it in to him) and then take your Black Belt test at one of An-shu Stephen K. Hayes' testing seminars."
> 
> Now I have known a few people who have studied a martial art (not SKH's) on their own and then when they found a dojo, tested and did quite well, attaining a decent ranking.
> However, training on your own and then going to a seminar to be tested for black belt, seems risky at best; both time and money spent could be waisted.
> ...


 
Hi Kwaichang,

My name's Scott, and I'm a Long Distance Student of the To-Shin Do Goshin Taijutsu program, as well as an active member of the SKHQuest Forums. So far I've taken about 7 different tests since my affiliation w/ the SKHQuest Centers, and I train periodically at the nearest dojo in North Carolina. Perhaps from my personal experience and collaboration I've had with other students and high ranking belt-holders in To-Shin Do, I can provide some degree of insight.

The SKH To-Shin Do program I can honestly say as a martial arts enthusiast and combat realist (I like the nitty gritty, down to earth, put a hurtin' on ya' stuff), it's one of the most comprehensive ways of studying I've personally experienced during my 14 years of martial arts study. 

Mr. Hayes has gone to great lengths to make sure that each and every LDS has the opportunity to get as much feed back from Hombu in Ohio or from around the country from the other dedicated and charitable instructors. Testing by video is only ONE option for testing, and convenient for those located an outlandish distance away from a Quest Center. 

My closest one is about 4 hrs away (3 when I'm driving  ) and I usually test there. My next test may be by video, but the means of testing by video and what's expected are specific and detailed. Each of the Go-dai Elemental strategies has material dedicated to specifically test taking alone, by which you're shown and told what's to be expected, and with your material a progress sheet and notes are provided to add to your own notes to keep track of your progress, problems, and personal discoveries about what works for you!

On vid tests, techniques are to be demonstrated from multiple angles and 'if' you pass or not, feedback is still given by a Master instructor to help you with how you can improve, because one can always improve, right? When going to the next belt level 'randori' may be demonstrated so they can see you react under pressure. Also, many of the Quest Center owners (in NC specifically) qualify to test LDS if they want to come up to the center, or hold a small seminar amongst their training partners in their home town.

They also have multiple seminars in which LDS are welcomed with open arms and 'encouraged strongly' to attend, in which I've personally received a wealth of knowledge and experience, training with different ages and sizes and regular students. 

Now let's be realistic...training at a dojo is 'much better' than training long distance, even if you have a train group, instant access to To-Shin Do seniors through internet and video tutorials, and (in dojo) seminar or just 'come when you can' training for feedback, and tips and tricks, like I do. The thing is, when I cross train with my MMA friends down here, or I demonstrate for inquisitive individuals, telling them to "throw or do whatever you want," they 'don't believe' me when I say I train long distance because the strategy and understanding of the body-jutsu (lol) I've gained over these passed three years, has brought me to a place of understanding on not just fight, but 'winning' in general.

Katsu tame ni!

-Scott T. Ealey
Proud To-Shin Do Green/Black Stripe Belt


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## kwaichang (May 12, 2008)

ToShinDoKa said:


> They also have multiple seminars in which LDS are welcomed with open arms and 'encouraged strongly' to attend, in which I've personally received a wealth of knowledge and experience, training with different ages and sizes and regular students.



I have had the same experience when I traveled to learn.  It is a great opportunity and I'm very conscious of my good fortune.

Your input is invaluable, thank you.

Ninpo Ikkan!


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## Johan D'hondt (May 31, 2008)

hello,

there might be a slight mis-interpretation of the dvd series being an "easy way of getting a black belt"....

I would say that it is even harder to get your ranking as a long distance student....

when you have the luxury and comfort of training in a dojo where all your questions and "problems" are sorted out immediatly. As you are training by yourself, you will be forced to go trough the techniques step by step, making mistakes on the way trough, resulting in a maybe less than perfect performance.
Allowing yourself to make those mistakes will eventually make you feel even more confident "and happy" when after all you will attain a certain level of experience and proper performance.

from the point of view of Hombu dojo and An-Shu Hayes, with all the critisism about his programs and "controversial" ideas on the internet, he just has to be even more aware that each and every single long distance student submitting a test is worth the rank he is testing for! thus putting the bar maybe even a little bit higher...

(at least, I feel it that way....)

As to Mr Hayes' original practices of ninjustu....he got his original practices from Hatsumi sensei, so how more original can you get?


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## kwaichang (May 31, 2008)

Indeed!  Well said.


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 22, 2008)

Johan D'hondt said:


> As to Mr Hayes' original practices of ninjustu....he got his original practices from Hatsumi sensei, so how more original can you get?



Indeed!

The great thing about Toshindo is that you can still get the original training that went on in the early days. The training in the Bujinkan now has been modified for all the students who have shown up for only a short while without the deep relationship Hatsumi sensei had with Anshu. There are things no longer taught in the Bujinkan but still found in Toshindo.

Jealous people have said that these things never came from Hatsumi sensei. They say that Anshu is now out of favor with him and has even been thrown out. But if you talk to Anshu, you will find the truth. The greatest source of authentic training as taught by Takamatsu O'sensei can only be found in Toshindo.


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## Kreth (Jul 22, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> There are things no longer taught in the Bujinkan but still found in Toshindo.


Examples, please.


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## bydand (Jul 22, 2008)

I see some things never change.  When are practitioners of my own art going to realize that it is no longer Ninjutsu, it is To-Shin Do plain and simple.  Mr. Hayes has gone is own way.  There is nothing wrong or embarrassing about that, but the constant "we are still Ninjutsu, we train the old way" is simply ludicrous.  I trained with John Poliquin before there was a To-Shin Do, I have trained with John in the not so distant past as well.  He has told me himself it is now a different art.  One that is based on Ninjutsu, but growing and evolving everyday into something new.  I still wear my gold Nin symbol on my Gi to remind me of the simple fact I was one of the very first student in To-Shin Do and to remind me of where we all got our start.  I am proud to say I am one of the founding members of this art, but you will never hear me say it is the exact same as Ninjutsu anymore.  

We do NOT train in the old way, shoot we don't train today like we did even 5 years ago, let alone 10 or 15 or longer.


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## Kreth (Jul 22, 2008)

bydand said:


> We do NOT train in the old way, shoot we don't train today like we did even 5 years ago, let alone 10 or 15 or longer.


Exactly. If the training isn't evolving, then it's dead...


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 22, 2008)

bydand said:


> We do NOT train in the old way, shoot we don't train today like we did even 5 years ago, let alone 10 or 15 or longer.



But we do have all the knowledge that was taught in the early days and was dropped from the general Bujinkan because people would not commit like Anshu did.

Toshindo has everything the Bujinkan has, plus the experiences that Anshu had in the real world doing things like being a bodyguard for the Dali Lama. We don't train the same way, but we have all the old knowledge. And that drives some people to lie even about his relationship with Hatsumi sensei.


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## bydand (Jul 22, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> Toshindo has everything the Bujinkan has, plus the experiences that Anshu had in the real world doing things like being a bodyguard for the Dali Lama. We don't train the same way, but we have all the old knowledge. And that drives some people to lie even about his relationship with Hatsumi sensei.



You should say that To-Shin Do has everything the Bujinkan *HAD *when he was very active within that organization.  I am not going to rehash the whole Hayes/Hatsumi argument because short of being there we don't know what happened and all we have to go by is secondhand knowledge.  Frankly, I believe there has been a falling out between the two; NOT THAT IT MATTERS TO US THOUGH!  Yes I did yell that.  What does it matter to our training, what their relationship is?  The answer to that question is:  that it doesn't matter one iota.   

Please drop this crusade because it doesn't help a thing to bash an issue that is a couple of years old at this point.  Train, move on past something that will not impact you *ever*, in your training.  I also invite you to go to a Bujinkan school and see what they really are doing, there are some FINE people who train in them.  And there is precious little you can bring they haven't seen already.   There is nothing wrong with our art being *our *art, it doesn't *have *to be better than where it came from, but it is different now.  What does it really matter if Hayes and Hatsumi exchange Christmas cards and  Grandbaby pictures, or if they hate each other.


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## Kreth (Jul 22, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> And that drives some people to lie even about his relationship with Hatsumi sensei.


I'll be blunt. How do you know they're lying, other than Hayes told you so?


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## bydand (Jul 22, 2008)

Kreth said:


> I'll be blunt. How do you know they're lying, other than Hayes told you so?



It says I have to spread it around some before giving you some rep Kreth.  I owe you a few.


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 22, 2008)

bydand said:


> You should say that To-Shin Do has everything the Bujinkan *HAD *when he was very active within that organization.  I am not going to rehash the whole Hayes/Hatsumi argument because short of being there we don't know what happened and all we have to go by is secondhand knowledge.  Frankly, I believe there has been a falling out between the two; NOT THAT IT MATTERS TO US THOUGH!



What? You believe it? You have not asked Anshu for the truth?

You claim to be a student of Anshu and yet you listen to the rumors spread on the internet by people that are jealous of Anshu. You owe it to the truth to get it from Anshu.

And Anshu has been to Japan to train with Hatsumi sensei almost every year. So I would think he knows just how much has been dropped out of what has been taught. But since he has both the old knowledge and the new experiences, it is the best of both world.


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## Kreth (Jul 22, 2008)

bydand said:


> It says I have to spread it around some before giving you some rep Kreth.  I owe you a few.


It's ok, same thing happened to me when I tried to rep your earlier post... :lol:


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## Kreth (Jul 22, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> What? You believe it? You have not asked Anshu for the truth?


Wow, I can almost see the capital T.



> You claim to be a student of Anshu and yet you listen to the rumors spread on the internet by people that are jealous of Anshu.


I'm reasonably sure that bydand is your sempai. Doesn't he deserve your respect?


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## bydand (Jul 22, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> What? You believe it? You have not asked Anshu for the truth?



What Mr. Hayes and myself have talked about in the past is strictly between the two of us.  Same as the conversations I have had with several "Hombu Shihans" about the matter



Toshindo4ever said:


> You claim to be a student of Anshu and yet you listen to the rumors spread on the internet by people that are jealous of Anshu. You owe it to the truth to get it from Anshu.



I am a student, true.  I do not listen to idle rumors, but to compelling evidence that like I said earlier, doesn't make a bit of difference in my personal training.  I do not try to make Mr. Hayes out to some sort of Demi-god or more than he is, I highly doubt he needs your help in this silly argument on the internet.  If you are so concerned, talk to him and point him to this website so he can address the issue himself.  



Toshindo4ever said:


> And Anshu has been to Japan to train with Hatsumi sensei almost every year. So I would think he knows just how much has been dropped out of what has been taught. But since he has both the old knowledge and the new experiences, it is the best of both world.



Um, no.  To-Shin Do ISN'T Bujinkan anymore and hasn't been in a LONG time.  It is To-Shin Do, a different art that had it's birth through the Bujinkans teachings and knowledge, but now has found it's own pair of legs and is walking alone.


----------



## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

bydand said:


> I am a student, true.  I do not listen to idle rumors, but to compelling evidence that like I said earlier, doesn't make a bit of difference in my personal training.  I do not try to make Mr. Hayes out to some sort of Demi-god or more than he is, I highly doubt he needs your help in this silly argument on the internet.  If you are so concerned, talk to him and point him to this website so he can address the issue himself.



Anshu is far too busy to try to catch every rumor being told on the internet. Anyone who wishes to ask him can join his forum and get an answer. Why should he have to deal with all the screaming and bad mouthing of petty folks who won't even try to post on his forum?

And you should be concerned about the reputation of the man you claim as your teacher. People are trying to make him out to be a liar. And who would want to train under a liar? And that is how they try to tear him down. They can't attack his knowledge or skill, because he is the most skilled practicioner outside of Japan. So they attack his reputation by making up these stories.

If you really want to say that you believe the rumors, try asking Anshu in his public forum. Let us see the answer you get and how you will be treated inside Toshindo for your actions.


----------



## kwaichang (Jul 23, 2008)

I find this discourse most disturbing.
As a personal student of SKH since "Shadows of Iga" days (now retired) I am obliged to advise you that SKH is a most honorable and just person.  That said, Hatsumi-Sensei is a generous and understanding GM.  Neither are prone to falsehood and to those of us who know or knew them well, the direction of this thread is an afront.


----------



## newtothe dark (Jul 23, 2008)

Very much. I have found most of these forums to go this way. No matter the starter it always ends the same "my side is right and you are wrong" its like going to a church where they say the other faiths no matter which ones is a cult. It comes down to the excitement of the new student and the greed of the old teachers. What a shame.


----------



## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> I find this discourse most disturbing.
> As a personal student of SKH since "Shadows of Iga" days (now retired) I am obliged to advise you that SKH is a most honorable and just person.  That said, Hatsumi-Sensei is a generous and understanding GM.  Neither are prone to falsehood and to those of us who know or knew them well, the direction of this thread is an afront.



You are quite wise.

Anshu is quite clear in saying that he is still a student of Hatsumi sensei. That is what he says in public. He talks about notes and such that he still recieves from Hatsumi sensei to help him make the old arts effective in the modern world. Hatsumi sensei is said to have kicked Anshu out of the Bujinkan- BUT WHERE ARE THE PUBLIC STATEMENTS?!?!?!?!?

This is not a Hatsumi sensei  vs Anshu debate. This is between the two of them on one side and a whole bunch of rumor mongers on the other.


----------



## The Last Legionary (Jul 23, 2008)

Hayes may teach material based on what he learned while he was actively training with Hatsumi, but he is not teaching current Bujinkan material. He (Hayes) himself stated that "I was captivated by the idea of translating the gift of Hatsumi Sensei's lessons into a form that could serve my own culture and people back in America."

Translated. It is a known fact that things change when translated.  The heart, the intent, might be there, but over time Hayes ToShinDo has evolved into a completely different art than the current Bujinkan Taijutsu, though both do share many common roots.

Enjoy the art you do, stop sucking on the tit of the kool aid monster and drop the mask of the "True Believer" and you'll have more fun here.


----------



## kwaichang (Jul 23, 2008)

The Last Legionary said:


> Hayes ToShinDo
> has evolved into a completely different art than the current Bujinkan Taijutsu,
> .


Which is exactly why it isn't called Bujinkan any longer and should not be considered a mirror image, however faulty, but rather a totally new reflection.


----------



## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

The Last Legionary said:


> Hayes may teach material based on what he learned while he was actively training with Hatsumi, but he is not teaching current Bujinkan material.



Do you see the problem with the idea of "current" Bujinkan training when we talk about an art hundreds of years old?

Hayes learned things back when he could have a close relationship with Hatsumi sensei. His Japanese is flawless. Now certain things have had to be dropped because the quality of students have degraded.

The idea that some things may not be taught now and that you can't get it from many of the people going to Japan just drives some people nuts. So they spread rumors that the way Anshu does things is some sort of mistake. The truth is, Anshu has seen more stuff than they ever will.


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## Kreth (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> Now certain things have had to be dropped because the quality of students have degraded.


Again, what *in your personal experience* has been dropped? Or you just repeating what Hayes told you?


----------



## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Again, what *in your personal experience* has been dropped? Or you just repeating what Hayes told you?



In case you were wondering, you have shown your bias and you hold a lot of power here. I am not ignoring you, I am just being prudent in not responding and giving you an excuse.

I think that people can make their own judgements based on the fact that one person is trying to goad another when he has said he won't respond.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> Now certain things have had to be dropped because the quality of students have degraded.



May I remind you that Mr. Hayes also teaches his art by _video_?


----------



## Kreth (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> Just to be clear, you have shown your bias and you hold a lot of power here. I am not ignoring you, I am just being prudent in not responding and giving you an excuse.


Our staff policies here do not allow us to act in an official fashion when we're involved in a thread. If there are any repercussions, it will be because you violated forum policy and other mods became involved.


----------



## bydand (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> This is not a Hatsumi sensei  vs Anshu debate. This is between the two of them on one side and a whole bunch of rumor mongers on the other.




Then let it drop.  If it is between the two of them, that puts you into the "rumor monger" category. 






Toshindo4ever said:


> In case you were wondering, *you have shown your bias and you hold a lot of power here. I am not ignoring you, I am just being prudent in not responding and giving you an excuse. *



And I have NEVER in the past couple of years seen Jeff act from personal feelings when it comes to a debate that may be taking place that he is involved in.  NEVER have I seen him use his Mod powers to punish somebody he is in a debate or even heated argument with.  To insinuate such, with no indication of that possibility, shows a lack of maturity.




Toshindo4ever said:


> I think that people can make their own judgements based on the fact that one person is trying to goad another when he has said he won't respond.



And yet you *do *still respond, and to think others will not answer those responses just because you think you are right and they are wrong is just silly.





Kreth said:


> Our staff policies here do not allow us to act in an official fashion when we're involved in a thread. If there are any repercussions, it will be because you violated forum policy and other mods became involved.



Had no doubt here, or anybody else who has posted more than a few times on MT and know what high character you hold yourself to.


----------



## newtothe dark (Jul 23, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Our staff policies here do not allow us to act in an official fashion when we're involved in a thread. If there are any repercussions, it will be because you violated forum policy and other mods became involved.


 
I have never seen you misuse your power in alot of very heated debates you are always fair and to have someone say otherwise shows they haven't spent any time reading old posts which is also why we are beating this old *** horse again.


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## Kreth (Jul 23, 2008)

bydand said:


> Had no doubt here, or anybody else who has posted more than a few times on MT and know what high character you hold yourself to.


Aw, shucks...


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## kwaichang (Jul 23, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Aw, shucks...


 
Is that a corn Joke?:angel:


----------



## The Last Legionary (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> In case you were wondering, you have shown your bias and you hold a lot of power here. I am not ignoring you, I am just being prudent in not responding and giving you an excuse.
> 
> I think that people can make their own judgements based on the fact that one person is trying to goad another when he has said he won't respond.


Staff here operate under a strict set of guidelines and the owner isn't afraid to call them on problems. 

Me, I'm not on staff and can say, you're coming across a bit of a fanatical nutter more stuck in "awe struck newb student" mode than "sincere student of the art" mode.

Dr. Keil prescribes a cranialrectalectemy.


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## arnisador (Jul 23, 2008)

bydand said:


> And I have NEVER in the past couple of years seen Jeff act from personal feelings when it comes to a debate that may be taking place that he is involved in.  NEVER have I seen him use his Mod powers to punish somebody he is in a debate or even heated argument with.  To insinuate such, with no indication of that possibility, shows a lack of maturity.



He's new here. How could he know what you know from the past few years? I take him on faith that he thought it was prudent not to risk being seen as someone who would antagonize a staff member. Isn't that the kind of prudence we hope for in new users? He was asked why he was being quiet about something, and he answered simply and honestly. Frankly, the several pro-*Kreth* posts that followed would just reinforce _my _concerns if I were he, since saying as little as he did about a staff member has surely brought a reaction.


----------



## MBuzzy (Jul 23, 2008)

[playnice]Craig Mills[/playnice]


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 23, 2008)

arnisador said:


> He's new here. How could he know what you know from the past few years? I take him on faith that he thought it was prudent not to risk being seen as someone who would antagonize a staff member. Isn't that the kind of prudence we hope for in new users? He was asked why he was being quiet about something, and he answered simply and honestly. Frankly, the several pro-*Kreth* posts that followed would just reinforce _my _concerns if I were he, since saying as little as he did about a staff member has surely brought a reaction.


People are welcome to speak their mind, member or staff, within rules and hopefully reason.   Staff posting as members aren't allowed to act as moderators. Any complaints should be routed to the Steering Board (That's any Super Mod or Assistant Admin) or me, as appropriate.


Regarding Mr. Hayes, his books are well read parts of my martial arts book shelf, and the reason why we originally set up a Ninjutsu section here (way back before I even know what Koga was). Martial Talk is one of few sites that have a dedicated section for his arts, that we have kept open despite it being a less trafficked section. Our goal here is to maintain a reasonable friendliness in our discussions, which basically means we aren't afraid to ask hard questions, but we won't tolerate out and out flame wars nor will we insist on everyone joining hands and singing camp fire songs while roasting marsh mellons.


----------



## bydand (Jul 23, 2008)

arnisador said:


> He's new here. How could he know what you know from the past few years? I take him on faith that he thought it was prudent not to risk being seen as someone who would antagonize a staff member. Isn't that the kind of prudence we hope for in new users? He was asked why he was being quiet about something, and he answered simply and honestly. Frankly, the several pro-*Kreth* posts that followed would just reinforce _my _concerns if I were he, since saying as little as he did about a staff member has surely brought a reaction.



You are absolutely right.  I forget how much can be taken for granted when you have been around for awhile.  Very good point, and a good reminder to look at something from the other posters perspective.


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## newtothe dark (Jul 23, 2008)

Good point


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## shinbushi (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> His Japanese is flawless.


OK, I was not going to post as I don't care about Toshindo but, this is just false.
I translated for Soke and Nagato Sensei for 7 years and Hayes's Japanese is not even conversational. Frankly it is pathetic

One example (of many)  In the late 80's at Ishizuka Sensei's dojo in the junk yard. Soke told the class to divide the class in half (We we going to do Naginata work) Hayes went over to grab a hanbo. 4 of us translator shouted out no divide the class in half.


Whenever he was in Japan we would have Rumiko whispering in his ear. If it were not for that he would not be able to talk with Soke.


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## Kreth (Jul 23, 2008)

shinbushi said:


> OK, I was not going to post as I don't care about Toshindo but, this is just false.


Thanks for trying, David, but I'm sure we'll hear about how you're just jealous... :lol:


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## newtothe dark (Jul 24, 2008)

Or a rumor monger


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## lalom (Jul 24, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> Indeed!
> 
> The great thing about Toshindo is that you can still get the original training that went on in the early days. The training in the Bujinkan now has been modified for all the students who have shown up for only a short while without the deep relationship Hatsumi sensei had with Anshu. There are things no longer taught in the Bujinkan but still found in Toshindo.
> 
> Jealous people have said that these things never came from Hatsumi sensei. They say that Anshu is now out of favor with him and has even been thrown out. But if you talk to Anshu, you will find the truth. The greatest source of authentic training as taught by Takamatsu O'sensei can only be found in Toshindo.


 
Dude!  Would you please stop?!  I can certainly appreciate your zeal for An-Shu Hayes' teachings, but to make statements for which you have no proof will just bring more attack on you.  I train in To-Shin Do LDS as well, but, I try not to think I know it all just because I've read the SKH site over and over.  Grow up!


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 25, 2008)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS - SECOND WARNING*

A warning to keep the thread polite and respectful was placed 2 days ago. We realize this is a controversial topic and welcome discussion on it, but please address the topic and refrain from personal slams. Disregard of forum rules could lead to thread locking and infractions being issued. 

Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Super Moderator


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## JadeDragon3 (Jul 25, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Our goal here is to maintain a reasonable friendliness in our discussions, which basically means we aren't afraid to ask hard questions, but we won't tolerate out and out flame wars nor will we insist on everyone joining hands and singing camp fire songs while roasting marsh mellons.


 
Darnitt, I was hoping for us to all sing Kumbayah or the Barnie Song.    No smores?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 25, 2008)

Oh no, not the Barnie song.


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## kwaichang (Jul 25, 2008)

Barney is a dinosaur from our imagination 
When hes tall hes what we call 
A dinosaur sensation 
Barney teaches lots of things 
Like how to play pretend 
A-B-Cs and 1-2-3s 
And how to be a friend 
Barney comes to play with us 
Whenever we may need him 
Barney can be your friend too 
If you just make believe him:shooter:


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Jul 25, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Oh no, not the Barnie song.


 
I love you.  You love me.  We're one big disfunctional family.  With a great big hit & kick from me to you.


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## kwaichang (Jul 25, 2008)

:shooter:


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## bydand (Jul 27, 2008)

Oh God kill me now.  To think, I thought the thread had taken a bad turn earlier.


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## newtothe dark (Jul 27, 2008)

How does this happen?:barf:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 27, 2008)

Okay let's all try and get back to the origional theme of the thread.


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## SKB (Aug 1, 2008)

So here is something odd. I can train with TSD folks or Buji folks and we all know the same stuff???????? How can that be????  I've trained with folks who just got back from Japan and they are not doing things i do not get?????? Maybe there is more to what we all claim to be learning then just the name of the group you train with????

By the way............ what's wrong with thinking your group is better then the other? I notice some non-TSD folks who think their way is the 'bestest' and no one gets on them for it?????


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## GBlues (Aug 1, 2008)

So I am a newb.....? But the two basic things that I keep reading, is this. 

"To-Shin Do is the same as Bujinkan" TSD guy

"No, To-Shindo is not the same as Bujinkan" Buj Guy

"Yeah well, Bujinkan Sucks!" TSD guy

"Oh, dirt bag, well SKH Sucks!" Buj guy

"Screw you Hayes still trains with Hatsumi" TSD guy

"No, he doesn't, and if you had been to Japan in the last 3 months you'd know that." Buj guy

"****! HE was there last week." TSD guy

"No he wasn't cause I was there" Buj guy

" Well I asked Hayes myself and he's called B.S. on the whole deal" TSD guy

" He's a liar Hatsumi says this." Buj guy

" No way, Hayes says this! Hatsumi is a liar" TSD guy



All of this kind of translates to......" My dad is tougher than your dad, and he'll kick your dad's butt!"

?????? I know before anybody posts nobody has come out and said these things verbatum. However, it really is kind of the undertones. Whether Mr. Hayes still trains with Hatsumi or not, Whether they like each other or not, it's your opinion, you are most assuredly entitled to it. Well, if you live in America you are free to one anyways. 

I would like to make this one point and yes, I'm new to the art of To-Shin Do but this is a good point for those of us that are trying to learn from Mr. Hayes, or one of his students. I myself had not practiced what I have learned. I think this should apply to the Bujinkan guys also. It may makes things a little bit easier to swallow. It's the answer you have all been looking for. At the Quest Center that I attend we have a what we call a "Code of Mindful Action" Number 8 reads as follows: "I encourage all to speak purposefully from the heart. I avoid the dull contentment of gossip and small talk."

I think all of us, including me, should think about those two sentences and what they mean to us, and to, these threads about TSD and Bujinkan. I think the reality, is you can have 20 people see a thing happen, and if you ask all twenty of them, they will all twenty tell you something different. Like Obi-Wan Kenobi tells Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi. " Luke you'll find as you get older that many of the truths that we cling to, are dependent upon a certain point of view" 

No one knows what's going on between TSD and Bujinkan, or Hayes and Hatsumi, except the two people involved. That's my peace and have a good day everybody, please don't rip on me too hard, I am sensitive. LOL


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 1, 2008)

GBlues said:


> So I am a newb.....? But the two basic things that I keep reading, is this.
> 
> "To-Shin Do is the same as Bujinkan" TSD guy
> 
> ...



Nicholas,

First let me say I think that you should be excited about your training and *To Shin Do is a very good system to study*.  So please enjoy it.  However, you are not quite correct in your interpretation and that is simply because you have not been around very long.  I have attached a link to the post put on George Ohashi (hombu dojo administrator) BBT board that was put out awhile ago in regards to the situation where Hatsumi Sensei had Hayes Judon plaque removed.  It speaks for itself.  Now I have all the world of respect for Stephen Hayes and his wife Rumiko.  They are excellent martial practitioners and you should be proud to be studying in their tradition. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Continue to train in To Shin Do and enjoy it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Here it is:


----------



## Cryozombie (Aug 1, 2008)

GBlues said:


> No one knows what's going on between TSD and Bujinkan, or Hayes and Hatsumi, except the two people involved.



Not really the case, no.

Here's the thing, IMO.  !IMO! 

When the Hayes guys come on here and tell people he's still Bujinkan, because he says so, when they tell new students who come into their schools that they can get Bujinkan rank, etc etc... they are doing a huge disservice to those students who may actually want to earn Bujinkan Ranks.

Why?

Hatsumi has stated numerous times students who are training with the Genbukan, Jinenkan, Toshindo, etc... are NOT welcome to train with the Bujinkan.  Period.  So regardless of what SKH says about this... it's against the rules of our organization, and to tell students otherwise IS a huge deception.  

It's like... If you ask someone with loose (or no) affiliation to a Club what that groups rules are, why in the world would you take their word over the "president" of the other organization, or its Chapter heads?


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## kwaichang (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't suppose the Mods might agree this topic has been beaten to death and taken many a nasty turn; and close it?:soapbox:


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## Sukerkin (Aug 1, 2008)

I could've sworn I'd posted something in here about people being expected to treat each other with respect and politeness ...

... that must've been another thread along similar lines .

I don't want any of the gentlemen who have posted immediately prior to this to think that it's targeted at them; it's not, it's a general piece of Moderator advice.

This thread has two official warnings in it already and if the debate is not kept at a civil level then there will not be a third.  If you can't agree no matter what, then use the Ignore feature as has been previously suggested.  

If you don't want to do that and someone persists in posting up something that is in breach of board policy or will not abide by the normal conventions of social interaction, then please use the RTM (Report to Mederator) button rather than getting the flaming brands and pitchforks out.

The Moderating Team do deal with things that are reported - just because it's not seen in the 'public' spaces doesn't mean that it doesn't happen - so don't think that hitting RTM is a waste of time.  If it's genuine, then it's handled.

Thankyou for listening.  You may now return to your scheduled ... discourse .


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## kwaichang (Aug 1, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Thankyou for listening. You may now return to your scheduled ... discourse .










Thanks: from the ranks.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 1, 2008)

:lol:

You are more than welcome, good sir :rei:.


----------



## SKB (Aug 1, 2008)

SO TSD can't train with Buji? Man I screwed up!!! Damn I have trained with the "others"!!! AND the "others" have trained with me!!!! Man they screwed up in Japan when they let TSD folks train there!!!!! 

Now not being 'smart' about this........... you got to be kidding me????? I have trained with people who have trained in Japan, both TSD and Buji???? ANNNNNNDDDDDD before you even start, some of them had just returned from Japan this year and days before we trained................


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## kwaichang (Aug 1, 2008)

Ma Te:  YAME!!


----------



## Cryozombie (Aug 3, 2008)

SKB said:


> SO TSD can't train with Buji? Man I screwed up!!! Damn I have trained with the "others"!!! AND the "others" have trained with me!!!! Man they screwed up in Japan when they let TSD folks train there!!!!!
> 
> Now not being 'smart' about this........... you got to be kidding me????? I have trained with people who have trained in Japan, both TSD and Buji???? ANNNNNNDDDDDD before you even start, some of them had just returned from Japan this year and days before we trained................


 
Yes well, People will always "break the rules" thats just the way it goes. It doesn't change the rules. I mean, I speed... doesn't mean that it's not against the law...

 As far as the issue of showing up in Japan and training, Don Roley addressed this issue in the past on here, and he had far more first hand knowlage of it than I do, since he was living there at the time, so I would refer you to search his threads on the subject for the "Complete" answer to that issue... but I will paraphrase what he said IIRC.  One of Two things happen... the TSD guys dont identify themselves as TSD, or They do, and in the manner of the Japanese, they are not told to leave, they are simply not accorded the same level of help/respect/instruction that they would if they were not.  Again... Don's posts addressed that in detail, I'm only paraphrasing what he said.  

And Sorry, SBK, I'm not going to take the word of a random Toshindo student about what is allowed in the _Bujinkan_ over the word of one of the original Shihan and what has been posted on the Hombu's BBS.  Again, that just doesn't make sense: Its like a Masonic Brother asking the President of the Local Moose Lodge for the Rules of the Masonic Temple down the street...


----------



## kwaichang (Aug 3, 2008)

Hey, was that a Moose joke.


----------



## SKB (Aug 5, 2008)

Well I am only saying what I have seen and done with my own eyes and hands. Not what someone else is telling me. Maybe if it is rude over there to tell someone they are not wanted and to go away, and folks claim to be learning stuff from over there, those of us over here should not be so condeming of people?

Just a thought.


----------



## kwaichang (Aug 5, 2008)

SKB said:


> Well I am only saying what I have seen and done with my own eyes and hands. Not what someone else is telling me. Maybe if it is rude over there to tell someone they are not wanted and to go away, and folks claim to be learning stuff from over there, those of us over here should not be so condeming of people?
> 
> Just a thought.


 

and a solid one.....nothing in my decades of training has remotely approached what some have said here yet I do not claim to know all that goes on and with respect, neither should they.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 8, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> One of Two things happen... the TSD guys dont identify themselves as TSD, or They do, and in the manner of the Japanese, they are not told to leave, they are simply not accorded the same level of help/respect/instruction that they would if they were not. Again... Don's posts addressed that in detail, I'm only paraphrasing what he said.
> 
> And Sorry, SBK, I'm not going to take the word of a random Toshindo student about what is allowed in the _Bujinkan_ over the word of one of the original Shihan and what has been posted on the Hombu's BBS. Again, that just doesn't make sense: Its like a Masonic Brother asking the President of the Local Moose Lodge for the Rules of the Masonic Temple down the street...


 
Not to sound judgmental, but if this is actually true, I'd try to hide that fact about my organization, for it would be violating the very nature of Japanese Budo.  Such prejudice is looked down upon by the martial arts world as a whole, and in the end brings forth the fowl ridicule said organization may be receiving on media tools like YouTube.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 9, 2008)

ToShinDoKa said:


> and in the end brings forth the fowl ridicule


 
Chicken Ridicule? LOL.

Actually I hear more negative said about "Our" art (and by OUR Im lumping Toshindo in with Buj, as well as Genbukan, etc...) from the ******** home study course crap put out by Both Hayes and Von Donk.

Cuz, Kid, if you aren't part of the solution...

And you will pardon me, if I assume you know less about actual Japanese Budo spirit than the Japanese.


----------



## stephen (Aug 9, 2008)

ToShinDoKa said:


> Not to sound judgmental, but if this is actually true, I'd try to hide that fact about my organization, for it would be violating the very nature of Japanese Budo.  Such prejudice is looked down upon by the martial arts world as a whole, and in the end brings forth the fowl ridicule said organization may be receiving on media tools like YouTube.



The Japanese culture and language (to many extents) is based on a firmly rooted us/them dichotomy, much more than many other cultures.


----------



## ToShinDoKa (Aug 15, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> Chicken Ridicule? LOL.
> 
> Actually I hear more negative said about "Our" art (and by OUR Im lumping Toshindo in with Buj, as well as Genbukan, etc...) from the ******** home study course crap put out by Both Hayes and Von Donk.
> 
> ...


 
Actually less than one percent of Japanese people study the martial arts, as Hatsumi-sensei has revealed before.  It's about as popular as musket training over here in the States.  My name's Scott, forgive me for not signing out with it the first time.

But from what I've seen, they make fun of the slow movements and (what they perceive as) unrealistic attacks done by some of the shihan on the youtube videos.  Most people who haggle An-Shu Hayes are (proclaimed) Bujinkan members (though I doubt it because I've heard the Bujinkan is a more respectable origanization than their attitudes suggest) and how Hayes shouldn't have created To-Shin Do.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 16, 2008)

ToShinDoKa said:


> But from what I've seen, they make fun of the slow movements and (what they perceive as) unrealistic attacks done by some of the shihan on the youtube videos. Most people who haggle An-Shu Hayes are (proclaimed) Bujinkan members (though I doubt it because I've heard the Bujinkan is a more respectable origanization than their attitudes suggest) and how Hayes shouldn't have created To-Shin Do.


 
Haggle means "to barter with" so I assume you mean hassle. 

It probably IS Bujinkan members. Hayes created a LOT of bad blood... I know and also know of a number of former Hayes students who became upset after spending years studying with him/in his schools when he "sold" toshindo rank to existing TaeKowndo schools and their like to get the program up and running... they felt like all the time and effort they put in meant nothing, so they "abdicated" to the Bujinkan, and you had bujinkan members with "Bad Blood" right there.  Then he dug his hole deeper with the comments he posted in his own blog on his site about Hatsumi's ability and how he (Hayes) made the art "workable" and "real" further creating a divide between Toshindo and Bujinkan.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 16, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> Haggle means "to barter with" so I assume you mean hassle.
> 
> It probably IS Bujinkan members. Hayes created a LOT of bad blood... I know and also know of a number of former Hayes students who became upset after spending years studying with him/in his schools when he "sold" toshindo rank to existing TaeKowndo schools and their like to get the program up and running... they felt like all the time and effort they put in meant nothing, so they "abdicated" to the Bujinkan, and you had bujinkan members with "Bad Blood" right there. Then he dug his hole deeper with the comments he posted in his own blog on his site about Hatsumi's ability and how he (Hayes) made the art "workable" and "real" further creating a divide between Toshindo and Bujinkan.


 
Haggle?  LOL  Thanks for the correction, it was after a long day of work and I was seconds away from taking my afternoon nap (I love naps).

But yeah, so I've heard this before, that is, the selling ranks bid and so forth and can't really speak for To-Shin Do back then.  I can tell you about it now, though.  I can honestly say To-Shin Do instructors are some of the most humble and simultaneously fearsome martial artists there are.  I know nothing they do looks like Tae Kwon Do (I used to study TKD when I was a kid) and I can tell you An-Shu Hayes' insight into teaching the classical kata and helping us see how we can apply it to a more modern attack, as well as other facets of life is so inspiring and empowering, that his organization grows larger and larger, gaining more and more respect, and is even mending old wounds with some Bujinkan members.

The first Bujinkan member I ever met was at one of our seminars.  He was a nidan and very open, and enthusiastic about the training the host instructor was providing.  Me being only 6th kyu at the time, it was a rare privilege to be teamed up with him because he imparted some very useful henka knowledge I still remember and apply today.  The most important thing about that experience was that he showed me my stereotype was wrong.  On the internet, so called Bujinkan members would be hurtful and insulting, direspectful and not very upbuilding, trying to prove others as not authentic when the martial arts world doesn't fully even accept the authenticity of Dr. Hatsumi's scrolls.

But this one was none like that, no, he was kind and helpful, a true teacher and friend, and through him my respect deepend for the Bujinkan (that is their non-Japanese members, because they seem to be the only ones commenting on internet forums).


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 16, 2008)

Scott first off more than not people accept the scrolls of Dr. Hatsumi.  Just because he does not wish to part with them is no reason to dispute this.  That is where people get in trouble in that they say things during the course of a debate to tear down someone else. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




As to Stephen Hayes and To Shin Do?  Personally I think it is great that he has an avenue for his own personal creativity.  Clearly it was time for him to move in that direction and he did so.  However, before that he brought a lot of people into the Bujinkan because of his writings and promoting Hatsumi Sensei.  Literally he brought Hatsumi out into the light of the world that otherwise would have taken a little longer.  To that I am grateful to him.


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## kwaichang (Aug 16, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> first off more than not people accept the scrolls of Dr. Hatsumi. Just because he does not wish to part with them is no reason to dispute this. That is where people get in trouble in that they say things during the course of a debate to tear down someone else.


The Japanese government has seen and authenticated the scrolls; they are real and valuabe in the lineage, so why would Hatsumi ever want to part with them without giving them to a successor?


Brian R. VanCise said:


> As to Stephen Hayes and To Shin Do? Personally I think it is great that he has an avenue for his own personal creativity. Clearly it was time for him to move in that direction and he did so. However, before that he brought a lot of people into the Bujinkan because of his writings and promoting Hatsumi Sensei. Literally he brought Hatsumi out into the light of the world that otherwise would have taken a little longer. To that I am grateful to him.


 Also 100% true.  Hatsumi told SKH that it was time and gave him his blessing and permission to start his own style which -would attrack students outside of classical Japanese studies (my words but the gist of it).


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