# Pivoting



## MJS (Mar 10, 2010)

Thought I'd post this here, for those members who dont post on KenpoTalk.  There is a thread over there, with the discussion focusing on pivoting.  However, the OP over there was asking about doing the pivot on the heel of the foot, rather than the ball.

Now, for the life of me, I can't see how this would remotely work.  Anyone out there pivot on the heel when you're throwing a punch?  Seems to me that you're off balance, and there is zero power.


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## jks9199 (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm not a kenpoist -- but I'll sometimes pivot on the heel.  It's usually for direction changing more than delivering a strike or block, or incorporates a forward/back rolling motion in the foot onto the ball then back onto the heel.  Or sometimes it's a pivot on the heel as my weight goes off that foot, if that makes sense...


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 11, 2010)

I can see adjusting your footing by pivoting on the heel if there were a drop off you were trying to avoid, but I see piviting on the heel as a step to avoid pivoting.
Sean


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## seasoned (Mar 11, 2010)

Stand in a ready stance with knees bent. Feel your hips drop into your heels while you keep contact with the floor with the whole foot. Now shift your weight to the balls of your feet. Once the heel comes off the floor in this way we lose some stability. IMHO


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 11, 2010)

seasoned said:


> Stand in a ready stance with knees bent. Feel your hips drop into your heels while you keep contact with the floor with the whole foot. Now shift your weight to the balls of your feet. Once the heel comes off the floor in this way we lose some stability. IMHO


That is sort of the point, considering you are now in motion.
sean


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## seasoned (Mar 11, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> That is sort of the point, considering you are now in motion.
> sean


Yes the point is punching, and my add on is all movement. Tai Chi comes to mind.


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## Xinglu (Mar 11, 2010)

seasoned said:


> Yes the point is punching, and my add on is all movement. Tai Chi comes to mind.


In Taiji you pivot (with a few exceptions) with your heel still touching the floor. Rarely do you not want yongquan (Bubbling Well, AKA Kidney 1) to be in contact with the ground when you are fighting.  It is a major source point of rooting and fajing. It is not connected when your are on the ball of your foot, or when you are on the heel.

So, from a neijia perspective, neither pivoting on the ball or the heel is correct.


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## blindsage (Mar 11, 2010)

Wing Chun people pivot on the heels traditionally.  Ask in the Wing Chun forum and I'll bet you'll get plenty of answers.


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## Xinglu (Mar 11, 2010)

blindsage said:


> Wing Chun people pivot on the heels traditionally.  Ask in the Wing Chun forum and I'll bet you'll get plenty of answers.


Just curious, and maybe I'd be better off posting this over there but perhaps you know: How far off the ground do they lift the front of the foot?

When I was doing CLF it was almost all pivots on the ball of the foot.  I love how two southern styles can be so different.  It's part of the reason MA never gets old!


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## Flying Crane (Mar 11, 2010)

Xinglu said:


> Just curious, and maybe I'd be better off posting this over there but perhaps you know: How far off the ground do they lift the front of the foot?
> 
> When I was doing CLF it was almost all pivots on the ball of the foot. I love how two southern styles can be so different. It's part of the reason MA never gets old!


 
well this was posted in the kenpo section, but since everyone is contributing based on other systems, I'll go ahead as well.

In Tibetan White Crane we pivot on the ball of the foot, but you keep your heels down so they do not break contact with the ground.  You need to adjust pressure on the heels enough so they can move in the pivot, but you do not lift them.  Doing so undermines your rooting.  This is something that really needs to be trained with shoes.  If you try and train this barefoot like most karateka do, you will just rip up your feet.

We engage the foot actively in the pivot, driving it against the ground with the leg and hip muscles, thru the torso.  We don't simply twist the upper body and drag the feet around behind us. By the end of the pivot, the heels are being driven into the ground.

I personally do not like to pivot too far forward on the ball, because I feel it's easy to lift the heel if I do so.  I locate the pivot point to the area from the ball of the foot back to about the middle of the foot.  That is the overall area that feels best for me when I do my pivots.

In Tracy kenpo, we are taught to throw a reverse punch from the fighting horse stance.  You twist thru the waist, but do not actually pivot thru the feet into a bow.  You keep in the fighting horse, driving your root into the ground to power your pivot in the waist.


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## Xinglu (Mar 11, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> well this was posted in the kenpo section, but since everyone is contributing based on other systems, I'll go ahead as well.
> 
> In Tibetan White Crane we pivot on the ball of the foot, but you keep your heels down so they do not break contact with the ground.  You need to adjust pressure on the heels enough so they can move in the pivot, but you do not lift them.  Doing so undermines your rooting.  This is something that really needs to be trained with shoes.  If you try and train this barefoot like most karateka do, you will just rip up your feet.
> 
> ...


Sounds just like the rest of the neijia.


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## blindsage (Mar 11, 2010)

Xinglu said:


> Just curious, and maybe I'd be better off posting this over there but perhaps you know: How far off the ground do they lift the front of the foot?
> 
> When I was doing CLF it was almost all pivots on the ball of the foot. I love how two southern styles can be so different. It's part of the reason MA never gets old!


AFAIK, just enough for the pivot.  But I only did WC for a very short amount of time so I'm definitely not the expert on this.


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## Xinglu (Mar 11, 2010)

blindsage said:


> AFAIK, just enough for the pivot.  But I only did WC for a very short amount of time so I'm definitely not the expert on this.


So it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that they still keep the ball of the foot touching the ground when they pivot it?


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## geezer (Mar 11, 2010)

Xinglu said:


> So it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that they still keep the ball of the foot touching the ground when they pivot it?


 
In Wing Chun (Wing Tsun, Ving Tsun) this pivoting thing varies tremendously from lineage to lineage. The first WC I studied, under the direction of a Chinese sifu of some renown, advocated pivoting both legs simultaneously with the _weight on the heels_ and allowing the balls of the feet to slide as you turn. The next dozen years I spent under _another_ very renowned Chinese Master who taught us to pivot turning one leg at a time on the _"center of our foot". _As the first leg was nearly completing it's turn, the second leg would begin the motion with a sort of wave-like transmition of energy, so that you were always rooted with one leg or the other, with weight evenlly poised between toe and heel. Finally, there are other groups who weight the balls of their feet. Conclusion, at least they all agree on one thing. _"Everybody else is wrong!" _LOL 

Now I haven't been involved in Kenpo since i was a kid the mid 70's, but my guess is that you won't have perfect agreement there either.


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## blindsage (Mar 11, 2010)

Xinglu said:


> So it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that they still keep the ball of the foot touching the ground when they pivot it?


It wouldn't be unreasonable to me.  As geezer said, it would be more of shifting your weight to the heels rather than lifting the balls.


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## MJS (Mar 11, 2010)

seasoned said:


> Stand in a ready stance with knees bent. Feel your hips drop into your heels while you keep contact with the floor with the whole foot. Now shift your weight to the balls of your feet. Once the heel comes off the floor in this way we lose some stability. IMHO


 
If you were to shift your weight to the heels, wouldn't you say that the same result would happen?


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## MJS (Mar 11, 2010)

Interesting replies.  Now, seeing that we have non Kenpo people replying, let me ask this...when you're talking about pivoting, are you all talking about from a stationary position or one in which you're moving?


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## Xinglu (Mar 11, 2010)

I got more replies from the Yongchun guys on a thread I posted over there. 

Mike - I'm talking about both.


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## MJS (Mar 11, 2010)

Xinglu said:


> I got more replies from the Yongchun guys on a thread I posted over there.


 
I'll have to check that thread out. 



> Mike - I'm talking about both.


 
The next question that comes to mind is...I'm assuming the stationary position also has self defense application?  If so, is it also safe for me to assume that if the heels of the foot are used, that its just as effective as if the pivot were done on the balls of the foot?


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## Xinglu (Mar 11, 2010)

Strictly speaking from a neijia standpoint, so long as you are connected to your grounding via yongquan it should make no difference to the amount of fajing generated weather the main weight is on the heel or the ball.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2010)

MJS said:


> when you're talking about pivoting, are you all talking about from a stationary position or one in which you're moving?


 
can you clarify what you mean a bit here?


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## Jdokan (Mar 12, 2010)

Having done the ball pivot most of my career & now pivoting on the heel I find no detriment to the heel pivot conversely the ball pivot does put increased pressure on the knee.  I believe that had I been pivoting on the heel rather than the ball my knees would not be as bad....


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## FeralKenpo (Mar 12, 2010)

I pivot near the center of the foot, but closer to the ball. I feel I have more responsiveness(spring) this way. Pivoting on the heel creates an off-balance feel. There are probably ways to pivot on the heel correctly and not be off-balance, but I don't know those ways.


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## MJS (Mar 12, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> can you clarify what you mean a bit here?


 
Sure.   It may have just been me, but I got the impression from some of the earlier posts, that people were talking about throwing punches from a static stance, such as a horse stance, or any stance, in which the person is not moving.  

When I mentioned moving, I was talking more along the lines of throwing punches while you're sparring or working SD techniques.


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## seasoned (Mar 13, 2010)

MJS said:


> If you were to shift your weight to the heels, wouldn't you say that the same result would happen?


 




This is a video of Masanobu Shinjo, one of the greatest modern day masters of Okinawan GoJu, may he RIP.
As you watch his opening moves from the ready stance you will see him pivot on both the heel and the ball of his feet. Also, all through his awesome kata you will see a combination of both, again. Regardless of how we pivot whether on the ball or heel, it is our relationship with regard to the ground and rooting that is important. This is why my first post mentioned standing in the ready stance immobile at first, to gain a better understanding of rooting before moving and pivoting accrues. :asian: I do hope I have made my point clear.


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## DavidCC (Mar 15, 2010)

The original question was not so much about pivoting as footwork for moving or changing direction as it was about throwing a rear-hand straight punch.

I believe that pivoting on the heel during that punch prevents me from engaging the muscles of my lower leg/ankle.  Also it forces me into a narrower stance and my hips don;t open up properly when turning into the punch.


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## DavidCC (Mar 15, 2010)

seasoned said:


> This is a video of Masanobu Shinjo, one of the greatest modern day masters of Okinawan GoJu, may he RIP.
> As you watch his opening moves from the ready stance you will see him pivot on both the heel and the ball of his feet. Also, all through his awesome kata you will see a combination of both, again. Regardless of how we pivot whether on the ball or heel, it is our relationship with regard to the ground and rooting that is important. This is why my first post mentioned standing in the ready stance immobile at first, to gain a better understanding of rooting before moving and pivoting accrues. :asian: I do hope I have made my point clear.



I'm sorry, I watched it 3 times and nowhere did I see him move his toes while his heel remained in the same place.  There were 2 moments where he was settling into a stance and adjusting his feet at both ends but that was not in any way "pivoting" with a punch or as a footwork maneuver.  At what time signatures do you see him pivot on the heel?


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## Xinglu (Mar 15, 2010)

DavidCC said:


> The original question was not so much about pivoting as footwork for moving or changing direction as it was about throwing a rear-hand straight punch.
> 
> I believe that pivoting on the heel during that punch prevents me from engaging the muscles of my lower leg/ankle.  Also it forces me into a narrower stance and my hips don;t open up properly when turning into the punch.



so long as yongquan maintains contact with the ground during your pivot, you shouldn't have the problem of engaging your muscles.  Also, there is a time and place for each kind of pivot, and each one should either narrow or expand your stance appropriately for the strategy and tactic used.  It is not always appropriate to widen your stance, just like it is not always appropriate to narrow your stance.


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