# Obama Administration Reverses Course, Forbids Sale of 850,000 Antique Rifles



## Archangel M (Sep 5, 2010)

This one is a hoot!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...course-forbids-sale-antique-m-rifles/#content



> The South Korean government, in an effort to raise money for its military, wants to sell nearly a million antique M1 rifles that were used by U.S. soldiers in the Korean War to gun collectors in America.
> 
> The Obama administration approved the sale of the American-made rifles last year. But it reversed course and banned the sale in March  a decision that went largely unnoticed at the time but that is now sparking opposition from gun rights advocates.


 
Waffling? Say it isnt so.



> Gun control advocates praised the Obama administration for taking security seriously.
> 
> "Guns that can take high-capacity magazines are a threat to public safety," said Dennis Henigan of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. "Even though they are old, these guns could deliver a great amount of firepower. So I think the Obama administration's concerns are well-taken."


 
Uh. The M1 Garand uses 8 round "en block" clips that are breach loaded. Less rounds than can be loaded into AR15's and AK47's in states that limit magazines to 10 rounds. And those are external magazines at that.



> Asked why the M1s pose a threat, the State Department spokesman referred questions to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. ATF representatives said they would look into the question Monday afternoon, but on Wednesday they referred questions to the Justice Department. DOJ spokesman Dean Boyd referred questions back to the State Department.


 
What a circus that is. Maybe they can refer to the Civilian Marksmanship Program where YOU CAN STILL BUY M1's FROM THE GVT!!!

http://www.thecmp.org/m1garand.htm

WTF??


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## Archangel M (Sep 5, 2010)

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/sep/3/obamas-backdoor-gun-ban/



> It's hard to see how these M1 rifles could be considered risky when they already are offered for sale by the U.S. government through the Civilian Marksmanship Program. In fact, the federally sponsored CMP puts on summer camps that teach boys and girls how to handle the Garand properly and safely. In the past seven years, there hasn't been a single accident. Many of the participants go on to serve their country or take part in shooting sports at the collegiate and Olympic level.
> 
> It's more likely that the administration is seeking to win the admiration of gun grabbers. Mr. Obama has a history of supporting gun control as a state senator and U.S. senator, but he's been limited in his ability to implement this anti-gun agenda as president. Democratic members of Congress remember the federal assault-weapons ban as one of the lead issues motivating voters to turn Congress over to Republicans in 1994. Senators facing tight races in pro-gun states don't want to see a repeat of that midterm landslide. Therefore, the best way for Mr. Obama to appease the gun-grabbing fringe is to take actions that won't bring too much attention to what he's doing. As long as the destruction of these rifles stays under the public radar screen, he will have achieved his goal.


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## Carol (Sep 5, 2010)

And all the people that said "How can the PRESIDENT take away our guns?"

Here is the answer.

Great find, Arch.  :asian:


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## Tez3 (Sep 5, 2010)

ROFL at 'antique'


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## KenpoTex (Sep 5, 2010)

Is anybody really surprised by this?  Hmph...didn't think so.


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## Archangel M (Sep 5, 2010)

The reasoning is just so...well...moronic. The US Gvt is ALREADYselling M1's. I bet the Pres. didn't even know that fact. It has to be a political act as the Washington Times article suggests.

The little runarond through the gvt. agency talking heads who don't have an answer as to WHY is priceless. I wouldn't want to try and explain it either.


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## Carol (Sep 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> ROFL at 'antique'



Antique isn't just a term of art. That is likely how they are classified by the South Korean government.  Here in the U.S., we have designations for antique firearms as well...they are exempt from certain legislative measures, etc.  It's a bit more powerful definition than an antique plate or something like that


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 5, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> The reasoning is just so...well...moronic. The US Gvt is ALREADYselling M1's. I bet the Pres. didn't even know that fact. It has to be a political act as the Washington Times article suggests.
> 
> The little runarond through the gvt. agency talking heads who don't have an answer as to WHY is priceless. I wouldn't want to try and explain it either.



Yeah, let's keep that to ourselves.  The Division of Civilian Marksmanship sells M1 Garands direct from the US Army warehouses to citizens; it's a low-profile operation.  I can just see President Obama going _"WHAT?  We do WHAT?"_ And that would be the end of that.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 5, 2010)

Uh huh...

http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/tester_obama_a_regular_guy_not_a_threat_to_guns/5285/



> *Tester: Obama a Regular Guy, Not a Threat to Guns*
> 
> By Matt Gouras, Associated Press , 08-28-08
> HELENA  U.S. Sen. Jon Tester said Thursday he has no qualms  about backing Barack Obama for president, calling him an "ordinary  person" who is no threat to gun owners.
> ...



No, he's not taking away guns.  Just preventing citizens from buying them.  That's not the same thing at all, is it?  Right.


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## Carol (Sep 5, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Uh huh...
> 
> http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/tester_obama_a_regular_guy_not_a_threat_to_guns/5285/
> 
> ...



And just in time for the mid-terms!

Of course...his little maneuver may not have the effect he wanted...we'll find out in a couple months...


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 5, 2010)

Carol said:


> And just in time for the mid-terms!
> 
> Of course...his little maneuver may not have the effect he wanted...we'll find out in a couple months...



Yeah, I expect that if the right decides to make some hay with this one, he's going to have to reverse course again, stand and fight it out on ideological grounds, or pretend the issue doesn't exist and hope the noise level doesn't get too loud.

This is one area where groups like the Tea Party can actually do some good (which still doesn't make me a fan of the Tea Party).  I expect they'll agitate like crazy on this one, so it will get some traction in the mainstream news.  The left who run interference for him will try to describe the guns as _'military weapons that should never be in the hands of civilians'_ and _'dangerous high-calibre, high-capacity guns'_, but as has already been pointed out, the M1 Garand uses an en bloc internal clip that is NOT a magazine and NOT particularly high-capacity.  Most people find it a bit of a PITA, to be quite honest.  And both the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine have been in the hands of civilians for a very long time, with no ill effects.  They're not preferred weapons of bad guys, they are not automatic weapons, and they don't even look especially like _'assault rifles'_ that the government banned some years back.

I have noted that of late, the _'open carry'_  movement seems to be gaining some steam; more than I would have thought.  This may well tie into that group.  As is often the case, I suspect that this particular gaffe will resonate with conservatives and liberals will be caught off-guard and surprised at the anger it causes.  It is not unusual for Democrats to assume that everyone feels the same way about banning guns, even when they know that Republicans don't see it that way.  In my experience, that is.


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## Tez3 (Sep 5, 2010)

Carol said:


> Antique isn't just a term of art. That is likely how they are classified by the South Korean government. Here in the U.S., we have designations for antique firearms as well...they are exempt from certain legislative measures, etc. It's a bit more powerful definition than an antique plate or something like that


 

Antique _anything_ here has to be at least over a hundred years old. An antique gun here would mean one dating from the 15th century up to the 19th century. Certainly nothing much made in the 20th century. "20th century guns would be sold as used or second hand.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Antique _anything_ here has to be at least over a hundred years old. An antique gun here would mean one dating from the 15th century up to the 19th century. Certainly nothing much made in the 20th century. "20th century guns would be sold as used or second hand.



The South Korean government may call them whatever they wish, it would not affect how they would be classified and sold in the USA.

The definition of 'antique' guns in the USA is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License#Antique_guns



> Antique guns  made in or before 1898 ("pre-1899") are generally outside of Federal  jurisdiction, and may be bought and sold across state lines without a  FFL. The only exceptions are short-barreled rifles and shotguns, and machineguns made in and before 1898, which are regulated under the National Firearms Act  of 1934. Unlike C&R guns, antique guns can be re-arsenalized,  sporterized, re-barreled, or re-chambered, yet they will still retain  their Federally-exempt status. Even if every part except the receiver is  replaced, a pre-1899 firearm still qualifies as an antique.[1] FFL holders have been directed to not enter Pre-1899 antique guns into their Bound Books.[2]



Clearly, Korean War guns were not made prior to 1898, therefore they are not antiques by US law.  They are, however, 'curios and relics'.  C&R guns are not exempt from regulations, but they can be bought and sold by holders of a C&R license, which enables such collectors to buy for their personal collections via mail-order without being full-time gun dealers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa...ctors_of_Curio_and_Relic_.28C.26R.29_Firearms

The M1 Garand and M1 Carbine may well be considered 'antiques' by some standards, but not by US federal regulations.  Just the same, it doesn't matter if South Korea mislabels them; they don't control what regulations are followed once they enter the USA.  I suspect they just used 'antique' to indicate that the guns are old (and they are; at least 50 and closer to 60 years old).


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## WC_lun (Sep 5, 2010)

This dose seem to be a poor decision.  Smells a lot like some beurocrat got involved in it a shut it down without having all the info.  I would not be suprised if this gets reversed again.


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## Tez3 (Sep 5, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The South Korean government may call them whatever they wish, it would not affect how they would be classified and sold in the USA.
> 
> The definition of 'antique' guns in the USA is:
> 
> ...


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## Blindside (Sep 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Ah no, don't say that's old!! It just means they are in their prime!
> 
> Selling them off as 'antiques' or selling them off as weapons are two different things though. That many could equip an army rather than antique and curio shops.



That would be the point, to equip the unorganized militia.


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## Ken Morgan (Sep 5, 2010)

Just a thought, but could the gun lobby have pulled some strings to keep them out of the country? In order to keep the domestic supply low, thereby keeping prices higher, then if one million suddenly came onto the open domestic market?


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Selling them off as 'antiques' or selling them off as weapons are two different things though. That many could equip an army rather than antique and curio shops.



Not sure I know the difference.  South Korea can't 'sell them off' as anything.  They can only sell them to importers who bring them into the USA and then resell them according to the laws of the USA.  That's why I said it doesn't matter what South Korea calls them. They could call them a load of blueberries; that's not how they'll be dealt with when they get to our shores.
_
"Curio and Relic"_ is a legal term used by the ATF in the USA.  It has nothing to do with how powerful or deadly an item is, and everything to do with recognizing that there are a class of older weapons that are desired by collectors.  It allows collectors who wish to obtain a C&R license from the government to buy weapons classed as C&R directly from importers instead of paying a markup at the local gun shop, and it allows purchase through the mail, which is normally not allowed in the USA.

In any case, it makes zero sense to ban them; there are already millions of those same model guns in the USA, freely available, and you can even buy them directly from the US government through the CMP program.  So the fact that they are dangerous weapons means precisely squat.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 5, 2010)

Blindside said:


> That would be the point, to equip the unorganized militia.



What?


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 5, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Just a thought, but could the gun lobby have pulled some strings to keep them out of the country? In order to keep the domestic supply low, thereby keeping prices higher, then if one million suddenly came onto the open domestic market?



Which 'gun lobby' are you referring to?  If you read 'Shotgun News', it is full of importers who bring in surplus weapons and sell them via local dealers.  They've already been around forever, and they don't really compete with the firearms manufacturers.  So Colt and Remington and Winchester don't really lose any sales if Joe Sixpack buys a Mauser '98 or a Mannlicher-Carcano or an old lend-lease M1 Garand.  The 'gun lobby' in this sense would be the importers, and they're most likely champing at the bit to get their hands on these rifles to import.  I doubt seriously that there is an opposition from gun owners, dealers, or manufacturers to them coming in.


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## Empty Hands (Sep 6, 2010)

Isn't the M1 a .30-06 round?  That's only mid-power, as far as rifles go.  Sounds like typical beaureaucratic nonsense to me.  I doubt Obama would be personally involved in such a low-level decision anyway, although he might be now.


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## Grenadier (Sep 7, 2010)

This is very silly, since CMP / DCM has been around for over a century now.  



Empty Hands said:


> Isn't the M1 a .30-06 round? That's only mid-power, as far as rifles go.


 
The .30-06 Springfield, in its factory offerings (handloads can easily give significantly higher performance, safely), gives about the same punch as the .308 Winchester / 7.62 NATO, and both are classified as "full power" cartridges.  "Intermediate power" is used for weaker cartridges the likes of the 7.62 x 39 Soviet.  

On another note, you have to remember, that the gun-grabbing folks happily call a firearm chambered in the .223 Remington / 5.56 NATO, a "high powered rifle."  



> Sounds like typical beaureaucratic nonsense to me. I doubt Obama would be personally involved in such a low-level decision anyway, although he might be now.


 
Basically, his "knowledge" of firearms comes from whatever the Chicago pol's, such as Mayor Dick Daley, parrots from the gun-grabbing lobby.  Given the wild inaccuracies that they freely embrace as the truth, this comes as no surprise.


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## Skpotamus (Sep 7, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Isn't the M1 a .30-06 round?  That's only mid-power, as far as rifles go.  Sounds like typical beaureaucratic nonsense to me.  I doubt Obama would be personally involved in such a low-level decision anyway, although he might be now.



The 30-06 was designed to be a man stopper at ranges of 1000 yards.  

The M1 carbine is essentially a 150 yard gun.  

I find it odd that they blocked the import of AMERICAN MADE FIREARMS!!  We made them and shipped them to korea, now they want to ship them back and they can't?


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## lklawson (Sep 8, 2010)

The definition of "antique" is somewhat vague and subject to social evolution.

As a general term-of-art these days, and "antique" is any item over 25 years old.  So all these Antique Stores, and the "Antique Roadshows," even antique cars, etc. are all dealing with items 25 years or older.

Now, the legal definition of antique, as applied to firearms, is different.  

So it is not inaccurate to refer to these Lend Lease M1's as "antiques" and may actually be clarifying for the general populace of the U.S.

Personally, I hate it.  Antiques are, to me, 100+.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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