# Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association



## Don Roley

OK folks,
This originally should have been brought up in this section with _no names_ other than the ones on the web sites in question. I do not want to be the subject of another vicious attack because I found this article on the internet.

http://www.ohiotkd.net/taekwondoreporter/page5.htm

You can find the orginization of Jack "Papasan" Stern here,

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~kyha/KYHA.htm


Jack Stern was found by a court of law to have lied about his claims, including recieving a Medal of Honor. This is a fact. Not a story cooked up by a conspircy of people out to get someone else.

If you read his own site, you will see the use of many Japanese terms on a site devoted to Korean arts. It has been about a quarter century since I took TKD, but I still recall that the school is not called a dojo, rather a dojang.

Just in case someone wants to say this is just a vedetta by a few people that can set up web pages to try to prove points, I invite people to view this article at the CNN web site.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9612/04/medal.without.honor/


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## A.R.K.

I think that a few counter points need to be addressed as well.



> If you read his own site, you will see the use of many Japanese terms on a site devoted to Korean arts. It has been about a quarter century since I took TKD, but I still recall that the school is not called a dojo, rather a dojang.



KYHA is not devoted to Korean arts.  It is open to practitioners of any discipline.  This is explained in detail on the site.  Originally KYA it involved Korean arts exclusively.  This however has changed dramatically since the 90's as is evident from even a casual viewing of the members worldwide and their disciplines.



> Jack Stern was found by a court of law to have lied about his claims, including recieving a Medal of Honor.



Mr. Stern was convicted in a court of law for _posessing_  a medal of Honor.  This is a second degree misdemeanor which is equivelant to jay walking or catching a fish one inch under the legal limit.  

He had purchased the medal from a flea market with the intent of presenting it to a local VFW.  I have confirmed this by phone with Mr. Stern and several associates.  He was unaware that merely purchasing the medal was a second degree misdemeanor.  

A former student of Mr. Stern who had a dispute with him also happened to be a Sgt. for the Broward Co. Sheriff's Office.  He found out about the purchase and Mr. Stern was arrested, again for a second degree misdemeanor.  The events seem to indicate more of a vendetta on the part of the former student than 'bringing a criminal to justice.'  

Not unusual, the media accounts were embellished with poetic license to say the least.

Mr. Stern has studied under Asian Masters and hosted them in USA seminars.  This cannot be disputed as there is ample photo and documentation to prove it.  Individuals such as Mas Oyama, GM Naraki Hara and the Korean liason GM Gun Yi Choo for starters.

Mr. Stern does hold rank in several organizations.  A fact that even his most ardent enemies begrugingly admit.  I know this for a fact becasue I have been in communication with them via email or direct phone calls.

KYHA is a fraternal organization.  This is seen as a threat to several other organizations, one of which charges $100 per Dan to become a member.  Since KYHA does not charge such a lofty price it has attracted MA's from diverse backgrounds from around the world.  They do  not issue rank, they grant reciprocity.  They do not have annual membership dues, membership is life time.  MA's in parts of the world that cannot afford membership are accepted in for free, Mr. Stern absorbs the cost on a small pension.

They are affiliated with a small Hombu in Korea.  They are affiliated with WOMA in Saudia Arabia.

Mr. Stern is considered a living legend in Europe and the Middle East and has taught MA's in 53 different countries.  I have seen actual video tapes of his trips to Turkey and Saudia Arabia.  He was brought there on special visa by Royal Prince Fahad and Royal Sheik Ali Al-Atig.  He was honored as a dignitary in both countries, reviewing troops and training in seminars all over those countries.  The media was all over him in the most positive light.  And to those that are unaware, MA's in the Middle East are taken VERY seriously.  

I have seen the evidence, documentation, photos and video personally.  I know Mr. Stern personally.  He has hosted a seminar for me that benefited children's charities.  He did not charge a fee, and he flew in on his own expense which is a big deal on a small pension.  He would give you the shirt of his back and in fact has done so literally.

In my professional opinion, many of those that attack him are heads of rival organizations that resent KYHA popularity and the quality and quantity of MA's it attracts world wide.  They resent his non-political agenda.  And two of them attempted to recruit me away from KYHA...at a large $ cost to me.  Having caught them in SEVERAL lies, I have no use for them.

I know Mr. Stern, he has stayed in my home, he has helped me in helping children in need with no thought for himself.  He is my friend and I will not hold a second degree misdemeanor against him from almost a decade ago.  Who amoung us have not AT LEAST commited a second degree misdemeanor?

Those are my counter points and my input.  Choose as you see fit.

:asian:


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## MartialArtist

Then the entire name is deception.

The Korean Yudo and Hapkido Association was NEVER Korean.  Stern has no Korean lineages in his training.  Does he even have any real Japanese lineages in his training?


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## A.R.K.

It was originally the Korean Yudo Association.  The Hapkido part was added when Hapdiko people began joining.  Then all disciplines were welcomed in.  The name simply remained KYHA.  Mr. Stern does have Korean training as well as ties to Korean instructors both back in the 60's as well as today.  

It is important to remember that KYHA does not claim to speak for any particular country or discipline.  It is a fraternal brotherhood and nothing more.  Like this site, it is where MA's of different disciplines come to network, cross-train and corrospond on ideas and projects.

:asian:


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *It was originally the Korean Yudo Association.  The Hapkido part was added when Hapdiko people began joining.  Then all disciplines were welcomed in.  The name simply remained KYHA.  Mr. Stern does have Korean training as well as ties to Korean instructors both back in the 60's as well as today.
> 
> It is important to remember that KYHA does not claim to speak for any particular country or discipline.  It is a fraternal brotherhood and nothing more.  Like this site, it is where MA's of different disciplines come to network, cross-train and corrospond on ideas and projects.
> 
> :asian: *


Actually, I have seen no proof whatsoever he has trained in any Korean system.  Hell, the only proof he has of him training even in a Japanese system is taking a picture with famous people.  I can take a picture with a celebrity, doesn't make me his buddy.


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## Don Roley

A.R.K.

To be honest, all I see in your post is heresay, speculation and an attempt to make it sound like it was a lot less than the court records show.

Here is a fact. Jack Stern has a criminal record over this affair. Theories about how a police officer was out to get him are mere stories. CNN's article states this among other things.



> For nearly 10 years, Stern bragged he had won the medal for bravery in the Korean War. He even went so far as to include a prisoner of war tag on the front of his car and a license plate on the back bearing a purple heart.



This is in direct contrast that he had merely picked up the medal as a present for someone else. If CNN is succesfully sued for libel, I will reform my opinion. But until that time, I trust CNN more than Jack Stern.

All the honors and such you talk about pretty much fall under the questionable banner. Yes there is a photo of Stern with Mas Oyama. That is all I have seen for their relationship. I can not tell by the photos if Stern hosted Oyama as he says or  merely attended an event where Oyama was present. Personally, I must say that his stance in one photo does not impress me with his knowledge of Japanese customs. Everything else pretty much follows this pattern of things in regards to his claims.

What Stern says and what you say are mere heresay and may include a considerable amount of spin on the story. The criminal record and how he had to write in apology to all living holders of the Medal Of Honor is a fact.

Again, I will trust what CNN says over what you or Stern says until you can get them to print a retraction. Considering just how serious the things it says are, if they were not able to provide proof to back it up they would be leaving themselves wide open for a libel suit. Since they have not been convicted of libel since the matter came to light in 1996, I think most would assume that they are safe in terms of their facts.


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## A.R.K.

Well Don, all I can say is that everyone is entitled to their opinion.  If you wish to trust CNN please feel free.  I know better than to trust them.  

I have seen both sides, talked to individuals on both sides and considered first hand evidence that you simply haven't viewed, nor would I suspect you'd be interested in viewing it.  You have made your decision, and I have made mine.

Peace
:asian:


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## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *I have seen both sides, talked to individuals on both sides and considered first hand evidence that you simply haven't viewed, nor would I suspect you'd be interested in viewing it.*



What is the nature of this evidence and why can you not simply present it to the world? For that matter, why not just show CNN and force an apology?

If you can do this, show me evidence that I can see for myself instead of relying on your word, then I would indeed be interested in seeing it for myself, as I am sure many others would be. Until that time, I am sure that many of us will put more trust in the court records and CNN.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *What is the nature of this evidence and why can you not simply present it to the world? For that matter, why not just show CNN and force an apology?
> 
> If you can do this, show me evidence that I can see for myself instead of relying on your word, then I would indeed be interested in seeing it for myself, as I am sure many others would be. Until that time, I am sure that many of us will put more trust in the court records and CNN. *


 CNN is obviously wrong.  I obviously trust Stern and some other people's words (based on air) than something as respectable as CNN.  I heard the story was all over the local news too, are they wrong also?  Which newsgroups do you trust?


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## KennethKu

If Stein indeed bought the medal as a gift to VFW, he would have negotiated a deal with the DA for a fair and equitable settlement. That would NEVER have come to trial, let alone a conviction. The excuse is BS.


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## A.R.K.

Don,



> What is the nature of this evidence and why can you not simply present it to the world? For that matter, why not just show CNN and force an apology?



Per these three questions...

I've already listed the nature of the evidence.  

They belong to Mr. Stern as they were given to him or taken by him.  

Not my place to show CNN.



> If you can do this, show me evidence that I can see for myself instead of relying on your word, then I would indeed be interested in seeing it for myself, as I am sure many others would be.



Then simply go to the source and carefully look at both sides.

Martial Artist,



> respectable as CNN.



The word respectable and the name CNN do not belong in the same sentence in my opinion.  They are frequently wrong in a rush to be first with the story.  The Iraq war was a good demonstration of this point.



> Which newsgroups do you trust?



Not that it matters, but ones that are not controlled by liberal agendas.

Ken,



> If Stein indeed bought the medal as a gift to VFW, he would have negotiated a deal with the DA for a fair and equitable settlement. That would NEVER have come to trial, let alone a conviction. The excuse is BS.



Please present your firsthand knowledge of the entire proceedings on which you base your observations.  Please present your firsthand research on both sides of this issue that led to you formulating your opinion.  Or do you base the whole issue on reading one sided accounts?  If so, your opinion is invalidated...

Based on you using the name 'Stein' rather than 'Stern' I would say that perhaps you are not really familar with this topic at all.  At least no familar enough to render comment that means anything.  
:asian:


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Don,
> 
> 
> 
> Per these three questions...
> 
> I've already listed the nature of the evidence.
> 
> They belong to Mr. Stern as they were given to him or taken by him.
> 
> Not my place to show CNN.
> 
> 
> 
> Then simply go to the source and carefully look at both sides.
> 
> Martial Artist,
> 
> 
> 
> The word respectable and the name CNN do not belong in the same sentence in my opinion.  They are frequently wrong in a rush to be first with the story.  The Iraq war was a good demonstration of this point.
> 
> 
> 
> Not that it matters, but ones that are not controlled by liberal agendas.
> 
> Ken,
> 
> 
> 
> Please present your firsthand knowledge of the entire proceedings on which you base your observations.  Please present your firsthand research on both sides of this issue that led to you formulating your opinion.  Or do you base the whole issue on reading one sided accounts?  If so, your opinion is invalidated...
> 
> Based on you using the name 'Stein' rather than 'Stern' I would say that perhaps you are not really familar with this topic at all.  At least no familar enough to render comment that means anything.
> :asian: *


 

CNN is now liberal?  CNN gives the story for the American people.  They give it how it is, and I say they're almost on par with BBC.  Last time I checked, it was FOX that was a bit more liberal than the others, but CNN as liberal...  You've got to be kidding me.  I would take the word of a weatherman in Montana giving news on a shooting in Argentina than Jack Stern's BS.  I'd rather listen to what the 500 Club (Christianity-based) has to say on Islam than anything Stern has to say.  I'm a Christian, but some of the crap the 500 Club spouts is incomparable to what Stern has to say.  Stern is much worse than any newsgroup combined.

The "Iraqi War"...  Evidence?  Not saying CNN is perfect, no newsgroup is.  But to just pass it off as "ugh, it's liberal" is not satisfactory.  Is CNN liberal?  Hell no, but they aren't conservative either.  Of course there will always be bias in terms with the writer and editor, but it isn't significant.


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## A.R.K.

:shrug: 

Whatever gets you through the night I suppose......


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Please present your firsthand knowledge of the entire proceedings on which you base your observations.  Please present your firsthand research on both sides of this issue that led to you formulating your opinion. *



These questions were asked of Ken, however, I base my opinions on several things.
Stern admitted guilt in a court of law. That should say something.
One: Your previous posts concerning Stern gave nothing but praise of what a great, well respected guy he was..the salt of the earth in martial arts cicrles..someone to be admired..that is until he was exposed on this BBs for being a fraud and a liar and proven so in a court of law. Then you distanced yourself from him and said you too had inquiries about him. 
I encourage anyone to please review posts made by ARK/Zhao Da Wei prior to to the expose done on Stern and you wont find him questioning him..then review posts after the expose on Stern and you will see a different tune sung by ARK.

I quote ARK on 02-07-2003 11:57 AM



> I'm also a member of the Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association. I guess thats not legite either in your esteemed eyes.* I guess folks such as Jack 'Pappasan' Stern and Joe Hess are fakes as well..*.I mean the KYHA is only one of the oldest, largest and most prestigeous organizations with strong ties to the East in the country.The Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association is one of the oldest in this country. It is also one of the most respected anywhere in the world. It's founder Jack 'Pappasan' Stern



Your darn right its not legit. I thought it was bogus then and KNOW it is bogus now.


Two: This in fact, ARK, has been your SOP from the time you first stepped up on this board.
You have changed the name of you art no less than 3 times but only after a member or members of this BBs pointed out that your use of certain names in foreign languages was woefully inaccurate and often down right foolish.
Not to mention the countless times you have changed the claims on your website including claims to titles such Soke.
Again, this only followed after your errors were pointed out by members of this BBs.
In fact you swore you knew the meaning of the Japanese word Soke when in fact you cannot speak the language well enough to even order a meal in a restaurant.  You swore there was an organization where your sokeship was registered in Kobe, Japan.but refused to give any name of the organization or point of contact. Side stepping and back peddling have been your standard operating procedure the entire time you have been here.
So if anyone is obliged to step up and present information it is YOU.


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## Robert Carver

I have been following this thread for a while, and I am amused at the latest "spin" that Mr. Stern and his believers are now trying to perpetuate, that he was convicted for _mere_ possession of a Medal of Honor. However, there is one slight problem with that. You see, Mr. Stern was charged and *convicted* in a *Federal* court, and thus he was charged with a Federal Crime under 18 USC Sec. 704 and 32 CFR Part 507. Here are the relavent laws:

18 USC Sec. 704                                              01/22/02

-EXPCITE-

    TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

    PART I - CRIMES

    CHAPTER 33 - EMBLEMS, INSIGNIA, AND NAMES

-HEAD-

    Sec. 704. Military medals or decorations

-STATUTE-

      (a) In General. - Whoever knowingly wears, manufactures, or sells any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

      (b) Congressional Medal of Honor. -

        (1) In general. - If a decoration or medal involved in an offense under subsection (a) is a Congressional Medal of Honor,   in lieu of the punishment provided in that subsection, the offender shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

        (2) Definitions. - (A) As used in subsection (a) with respect to a Congressional Medal of Honor, ''sells'' includes trades, barters, or exchanges for anything of value.

        (B) As used in this subsection, ''Congressional Medal of

      Honor'' means -

          (i) a medal of honor awarded under section 3741, 6241, or
8741 of title 10 or section 491 of title 14;

          (ii) a duplicate medal of honor issued under section 3754,
6256, or 8754 of title 10 or section 504 of title 14; or

          (iii) a replacement of a medal of honor provided under
section 3747, 6253, or 8747 of title 10 or section 501 of title

        14.

-SOURCE-

    (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 732; May 24, 1949, ch. 139, Sec.
    16, 63 Stat. 92; Pub. L. 103-322, title XXXII, Sec. 320109, title
    XXXIII, Sec. 330016(1)(E), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2113, 2146;
    Pub. L. 103-442, Nov. 2, 1994, 108 Stat. 4630; Pub. L. 104-294,
    title VI, Sec. 604(b)(16), Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3507; Pub. L.
    107-107, div.  A, title V, Sec. 553(e), Dec. 28, 2001, 115 Stat.
    1117.)

-MISC1-

                       HISTORICAL AND REVISION NOTES

                                  1948 ACT

      Based on section 1425 of title 10, U.S.C., 1940 ed., Army and Air Force (Feb. 24, 1923, ch. 110, 42 Stat. 1286; Apr. 21, 1928, ch.

    392, 45 Stat. 437).

      Section was made to cover the decorations and medals of the Navy Department as well as the War Department.

      Minor changes were made in phraseology.

                                  1949 ACT

      This section (section 16) clarifies the wording of section 704 of
 title 18, U.S.C., to embrace all service decorations awarded to
 members of the armed forces whether by the Army, Navy, Air Force, or other branch of such forces. (See note to sec. 5 (of 1949 Act, set out in Legislative History note under section 244 of title
 18)).

                                 AMENDMENTS

      2001 - Subsec. (b)(2)(B). Pub. L. 107-107 amended subpar. (B) generally.  Prior to amendment, subpar. (B) read as follows: ''As used in this subsection, 'Congressional Medal of Honor' means a medal awarded under section 3741, 6241, or 8741 of title 10.''

      1996 - Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 104-294 amended Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 320109(1). See 1994 Amendment note below.

      1994 - Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 320109(2),
 330016(1)(E), amended subsec. (a) identically, substituting ''fined
 under this title'' for ''fined not more than $250''.

      Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 320109(1), as amended by Pub. L. 104-294, Sec. 604(b)(16), designated existing provisions as subsec. (a) and inserted heading.

      Subsec. (b). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 320109(3), added subsec. (b).

      Subsec. (b)(2)(B). Pub. L. 103-442 inserted '', 6241, or 8741''
 after ''3741''.

      1949 - Act May 24, 1949, covered all service decorations awarded members of the armed forces by any of the armed services.

                      EFFECTIVE DATE OF 1996 AMENDMENT

      Amendment by Pub. L. 104-294 effective Sept. 13, 1994, see
 section 604(d) of Pub. L. 104-294, set out as a note under section13 of this title.

And from the Code of Federal Regulations....
----------------------------------------------
 TITLE 32--NATIONAL DEFENSE

                    CHAPTER V--DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY

PART 507--MANUFACTURE AND SALE OF DECORATIONS, MEDALS, BADGES, INSIGNIA, COMMERCIAL USE OF HERALDIC DESIGNS AND HERALDIC QUALITY CONTROL PROGRAM--Table of Contents

              Subpart C--Commercial Use of Heraldic Designs

Sec. 507.12  Possession and wearing.

    (a) The wearing of any decoration, service medal, badge, service 
ribbon, lapel button, or insignia prescribed or authorized by the 
Department of the Army and the Department of the Air Force by any person not properly authorized to wear such device, or the use of any decoration, service medal, badge, service ribbon, lapel button, or insignia to misrepresent the identification or status of the person by whom such is worn is prohibited. Any person who violates the provision of this section is subject to punishment as prescribed in the statutes 
referred to in Sec. 507.5 of this part.
    (b) Mere possession by a person of any of the articles prescribed in Sec. 507.8 of this part is authorized provided that such possession is not used to defraud or misrepresent the identification or status of the individual concerned.
    (c) Articles specified in Sec. 507.8 of this part, or any 
distinctive parts including suspension ribbons and service ribbons) or colorable imitations thereof, will not be used by any organization, society, or other group of persons without prior approval in writing by the Secretary of the Army or the Secretary of the Air Force.

Here is the BEST part:

 (b) *Mere possession by a person of any of the articles prescribed in Sec. 507.8 of this part is authorized provided that such possession is not used to defraud or misrepresent the identification or status of the individual concerned.*

Other websites on the internet seem to backup what is on the CNN website:



> http://www.mishalov.com/False_MoH_Recipients.html
> 
> Jackie Albert Stern, on the other hand, had plenty to say when he was sentenced. Stern was the Florida retiree who bought his Medal of Honor at a flea market and was caught by a sheriff's detective who coaxed him into coming down to the station and having his picture taken with the medal on, a requisite for prosecution in federal court.
> 
> When Stern was sentenced to one year of probation in December 1996, he was ordered to write a letter of apology to every living recipient of the Medal of Honor and have the letter published in the newspaper on Memorial Day 1997.
> 
> "I had no right to *wear* this prestigious medal as I had done nothing of merit to earn it,'' he wrote. "I know that my actions have cheapened the honor of those who have received this valiant award, and my pitiful attempt and selfish quest for family recognition has tarnished the dignity of all the brave men and women on whom this medal was legitimately bestowed.''



Mr. ARK, you may continue to believe whatever you like. My children were just over five when they stopped believing in the Easter Bunny. So if continuing to believe in what a convicted criminal has to say over what multiple other credible sources have reported gives you some comfort, then please feel free. Hopefully you are not in an occupation or position in life where your judgement (or lack thereof) could cause someone real harm.

Oh, I would address you by your REAL NAME, but since you are in violation of MartialTalk's rules and have not supplied the required information, I will just have to go with what I have.


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Robert Carver _
> *Mr. ARK, you may continue to believe whatever you like. My children were just over five when they stopped believing in the Easter Bunny. So if continuing to believe in what a convicted criminal has to say over what multiple other credible sources have reported gives you some comfort, then please feel free. Hopefully you are not in an occupation or position in life where your judgement (or lack thereof) could cause someone real harm.
> 
> Oh, I would address you by your REAL NAME, but since you are in violation of MartialTalk's rules and have not supplied the required information, I will just have to go with what I have. *



His name is Dave Shultz & he is a guard at some jail.

ARK will never openly admit that he knowingly got rank from a dubious source. 
He and other folks that make outrageous claims to rank title or deed are now protected under the Bleeding Heart Liberal Law on MT. So basically people can claim anything they want without putting up an ounce of proof and it is up to the other members of MT to supply the evidence that they are liars, fake, or frauds. Basically unless we have them on video holding the smoking gun and actually confessing to their wrong doing we dont stand a chance in hell of being aloud to question their claims.


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## A.R.K.

> Oh, I would address you by your REAL NAME, but since you are in violation of MartialTalk's rules and have not supplied the required information, I will just have to go with what I have.



One of your errors Robert.  My full name is listed in the required field for posting.  It is not listed where it is not required.  Funny, Rushikan's isn't either, maybe you should be erroneously admonishing him as well


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## A.R.K.

> His name is Dave Shultz & he is a guard at some jail.



Once again, Robert is incorrect.

My name is David Schultz.  I am not a guard anywhere.  I am a duly boned and appointed Deputy Sheriff holding the title and position of Detention Deputy and Academy Instructor.


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## Bob Hubbard

Question yes, pursue from thread to thread, no.  Difference.

New information on several individuals claims has stopped flowing a long time ago, instead it is constant rehashing of old stuff.



The law was interesting.  I've followed threads on several other fake medal wearers on other boards, but this is the first time I've seen the actual law.  Mr. Carver, thank you for posting it.  

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Once again, Robert is incorrect.
> 
> My name is David Schultz.  I am not a guard anywhere.  I am a duly boned and appointed Deputy Sheriff holding the title and position of Detention Deputy and Academy Instructor. *




Oh thats right.......Schultz with a C..........and your a detention "depity"...........


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## A.R.K.

Deputy...you need to learn how to spell


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Question yes, pursue from thread to thread, no.  Difference.
> 
> New information on several individuals claims has stopped flowing a long time ago, instead it is constant rehashing of old stuff.
> *



And that information has yet to be properly addressed by those questioned.and yet they are allowed to remain and are even protected under the Bleeding Heart Liberal Law on MT. 





> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Deputy...you need to learn how to spell  *


You see when words have "....." these kinds of marks it often identifies that they are purposely misspelled


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## Bob Hubbard

That same "law" also allows you greater latitude than on many other boards.  You posted your information.  He didn't answer some.  Sorry, I cant make him.

As i said to someone 3 years ago, there are other arts besides those you acknowledge.  Words do cross cultures.

You have brought a great deal of good information to light. Its the constant 'rehashing' on -every- thread you and your 'target' are on together that is the problem.

ARK has not violated to my knowledge any of the rules of conduct for this board.  Why should we ban him?  Because he wont answer your questions is not good enough.  You have refused to answer others.  By this argument, I should boot you both.

I would prefer to do neither.

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *
> As i said to someone 3 years ago, there are other arts besides those you acknowledge.  Words do cross cultures. *



I am not concerned some much with other arts its bogus claims made about rank, title and dan factories. 



> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *ARK has not violated to my knowledge any of the rules of conduct for this board.  Why should we ban him?  Because he wont answer your questions is not good enough.  You have refused to answer others.  By this argument, I should boot you both. *




Let me put it this way..I have answered ALL questions concerning any outrageous claims I have made.


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## Don Roley

Ok folks,
Please stop the screaming at each other. Let me sum this all up.

David Schultz is a member of the orginization. Thus his word can not be taken as an objective position. The fact is, he can not provide any proof to back up what he says about the matter. We have to go by his word alone. To most of us, that is not enough.

The facts that we can see are in the court records and such. As Robert Carver pointed out, in those records we can see that Jack Stern wrote this,



> "I had no right to *wear*  this prestigious medal as I had done nothing of merit to earn it,'' he wrote. "I know that my actions have cheapened the honor of those who have received this valiant award, and my pitiful attempt and selfish quest for family recognition has tarnished the dignity of all the brave men and women on whom this medal was legitimately bestowed.''



So we see this, and we naturally think that the story that Stern merely bought the medal is without merit. If any proof can be presented to counter this, I would welcome it. However, considering the history that David Schultz has had with Jack Stern (as pointed out by RyuShiKan) we cannot take what he says at face value without supporting evidence. That evidence will probably never be made availible to the public and is supposably in the possesion of Jack Stern. If Stern does not wish to make this evidence that he says will clear his name availible to the world, then he and his supporters can not blame the world for not believing it actually exists. So until such proof can be presented, all the snide coments about each other and sources such as CNN does not accomplish much.


----------



## A.R.K.

> However, considering the history that David Schultz has had with Jack Stern (as pointed out by RyuShiKan) we cannot take what he says at face value without supporting evidence.



What history would that be?  I have know Mr. Stern for less that one year.  I have been a member of KYHA for less time than that.

What I personally know of it what I base my position on.  I am not Mr. Sterns public relation officer, but I am his friend.  He was convicted yes...of a misd.  Who here could not have been arrested and convicted of at *least*  a misd in their life?  I am not going to hold something against a 73 year old disabled man that happened ten years ago to which he has made full restitution.  And I think anyone that does is merely a hypocrite.

He has rank...fact.  He has trained with those he has claimed to...fact.  He is revered by many in this country as well as abroad...fact.  He did fly in on his own expense and teach in my seminar for free for a children's charity seminar....fact.

He is my friend...fact.  Is he pure as the driven snow...no.  But show me who is on this or any other board.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Robert Carver _
> *I have been following this thread for a while, and I am amused at the latest "spin" that Mr. Stern and his believers are now trying to perpetuate, that he was convicted for mere possession of a Medal of Honor. However, there is one slight problem with that. You see, Mr. Stern was charged and convicted in a Federal court, and thus he was charged with a Federal Crime under 18 USC Sec. 704 and 32 CFR Part 507. Here are the relavent laws:
> 
> 18 USC Sec. 704                                              01/22/02
> 
> -EXPCITE-
> 
> TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
> 
> PART I - CRIMES
> 
> CHAPTER 33 - EMBLEMS, INSIGNIA, AND NAMES
> 
> -HEAD-
> 
> Sec. 704. Military medals or decorations
> 
> -STATUTE-
> 
> (a) In General. - Whoever knowingly wears, manufactures, or sells any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.
> 
> (b) Congressional Medal of Honor. -
> 
> (1) In general. - If a decoration or medal involved in an offense under subsection (a) is a Congressional Medal of Honor,   in lieu of the punishment provided in that subsection, the offender shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
> 
> (2) Definitions. - (A) As used in subsection (a) with respect to a Congressional Medal of Honor, ''sells'' includes trades, barters, or exchanges for anything of value.
> 
> (B) As used in this subsection, ''Congressional Medal of
> 
> Honor'' means -
> 
> (i) a medal of honor awarded under section 3741, 6241, or
> 8741 of title 10 or section 491 of title 14;
> 
> (ii) a duplicate medal of honor issued under section 3754,
> 6256, or 8754 of title 10 or section 504 of title 14; or
> 
> (iii) a replacement of a medal of honor provided under
> section 3747, 6253, or 8747 of title 10 or section 501 of title
> 
> 14.
> 
> -SOURCE-
> 
> (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 732; May 24, 1949, ch. 139, Sec.
> 16, 63 Stat. 92; Pub. L. 103-322, title XXXII, Sec. 320109, title
> XXXIII, Sec. 330016(1)(E), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2113, 2146;
> Pub. L. 103-442, Nov. 2, 1994, 108 Stat. 4630; Pub. L. 104-294,
> title VI, Sec. 604(b)(16), Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3507; Pub. L.
> 107-107, div.  A, title V, Sec. 553(e), Dec. 28, 2001, 115 Stat.
> 1117.)
> 
> -MISC1-
> 
> HISTORICAL AND REVISION NOTES
> 
> 1948 ACT
> 
> Based on section 1425 of title 10, U.S.C., 1940 ed., Army and Air Force (Feb. 24, 1923, ch. 110, 42 Stat. 1286; Apr. 21, 1928, ch.
> 
> 392, 45 Stat. 437).
> 
> Section was made to cover the decorations and medals of the Navy Department as well as the War Department.
> 
> Minor changes were made in phraseology.
> 
> 1949 ACT
> 
> This section (section 16) clarifies the wording of section 704 of
> title 18, U.S.C., to embrace all service decorations awarded to
> members of the armed forces whether by the Army, Navy, Air Force, or other branch of such forces. (See note to sec. 5 (of 1949 Act, set out in Legislative History note under section 244 of title
> 18)).
> 
> AMENDMENTS
> 
> 2001 - Subsec. (b)(2)(B). Pub. L. 107-107 amended subpar. (B) generally.  Prior to amendment, subpar. (B) read as follows: ''As used in this subsection, 'Congressional Medal of Honor' means a medal awarded under section 3741, 6241, or 8741 of title 10.''
> 
> 1996 - Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 104-294 amended Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 320109(1). See 1994 Amendment note below.
> 
> 1994 - Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 320109(2),
> 330016(1)(E), amended subsec. (a) identically, substituting ''fined
> under this title'' for ''fined not more than $250''.
> 
> Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 320109(1), as amended by Pub. L. 104-294, Sec. 604(b)(16), designated existing provisions as subsec. (a) and inserted heading.
> 
> Subsec. (b). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 320109(3), added subsec. (b).
> 
> Subsec. (b)(2)(B). Pub. L. 103-442 inserted '', 6241, or 8741''
> after ''3741''.
> 
> 1949 - Act May 24, 1949, covered all service decorations awarded members of the armed forces by any of the armed services.
> 
> EFFECTIVE DATE OF 1996 AMENDMENT
> 
> Amendment by Pub. L. 104-294 effective Sept. 13, 1994, see
> section 604(d) of Pub. L. 104-294, set out as a note under section13 of this title.
> 
> And from the Code of Federal Regulations....
> ----------------------------------------------
> TITLE 32--NATIONAL DEFENSE
> 
> CHAPTER V--DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY
> 
> PART 507--MANUFACTURE AND SALE OF DECORATIONS, MEDALS, BADGES, INSIGNIA, COMMERCIAL USE OF HERALDIC DESIGNS AND HERALDIC QUALITY CONTROL PROGRAM--Table of Contents
> 
> Subpart C--Commercial Use of Heraldic Designs
> 
> Sec. 507.12  Possession and wearing.
> 
> (a) The wearing of any decoration, service medal, badge, service
> ribbon, lapel button, or insignia prescribed or authorized by the
> Department of the Army and the Department of the Air Force by any person not properly authorized to wear such device, or the use of any decoration, service medal, badge, service ribbon, lapel button, or insignia to misrepresent the identification or status of the person by whom such is worn is prohibited. Any person who violates the provision of this section is subject to punishment as prescribed in the statutes
> referred to in Sec. 507.5 of this part.
> (b) Mere possession by a person of any of the articles prescribed in Sec. 507.8 of this part is authorized provided that such possession is not used to defraud or misrepresent the identification or status of the individual concerned.
> (c) Articles specified in Sec. 507.8 of this part, or any
> distinctive parts including suspension ribbons and service ribbons) or colorable imitations thereof, will not be used by any organization, society, or other group of persons without prior approval in writing by the Secretary of the Army or the Secretary of the Air Force.
> 
> Here is the BEST part:
> 
> (b) Mere possession by a person of any of the articles prescribed in Sec. 507.8 of this part is authorized provided that such possession is not used to defraud or misrepresent the identification or status of the individual concerned.
> 
> Other websites on the internet seem to backup what is on the CNN website:
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. ARK, you may continue to believe whatever you like. My children were just over five when they stopped believing in the Easter Bunny. So if continuing to believe in what a convicted criminal has to say over what multiple other credible sources have reported gives you some comfort, then please feel free. Hopefully you are not in an occupation or position in life where your judgement (or lack thereof) could cause someone real harm.
> 
> Oh, I would address you by your REAL NAME, but since you are in violation of MartialTalk's rules and have not supplied the required information, I will just have to go with what I have. *


Not *JUST* a criminal but a federal felon.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *What history would that be?  I have know Mr. Stern for less that one year.  I have been a member of KYHA for less time than that.
> 
> What I personally know of it what I base my position on.  I am not Mr. Sterns public relation officer, but I am his friend.  He was convicted yes...of a misd.  Who here could not have been arrested and convicted of at least  a misd in their life?  I am not going to hold something against a 73 year old disabled man that happened ten years ago to which he has made full restitution.  And I think anyone that does is merely a hypocrite.
> 
> He has rank...fact.  He has trained with those he has claimed to...fact.  He is revered by many in this country as well as abroad...fact.  He did fly in on his own expense and teach in my seminar for free for a children's charity seminar....fact.
> 
> He is my friend...fact.  Is he pure as the driven snow...no.  But show me who is on this or any other board. *


I have a clean record (excluding traffic tickets), same with most other people on this board.  However, everyone makes mistakes.  I made mistakes, especially in my younger years.  Never did drugs or anything like that, but I did the normal kid stuff in high school such as racing, etc.  My high school friends and I were among the first people in the area to tepee houses.  I don't deny that.

Everyone makes mistakes, some people get charged for things such as assault and battery, harrassment, etc.  But what Stern did was a *FELONY*.  It is NOT the common mistake.  Not all of us are felons.  What Stern did was worse than 100 years of tax fraud.  Is it forgivable?  I can personally forgive him, if he stops all that nonesense, but looks like pappasan is back on the street not missing a beat.

You know what?  Charity doesn't make you a good person.  Look at some of the celebrities and politicians, some who do charity work are only doing it for the image.  Is Stern doing it for the image?  I can't say.  But who exactly has Stern trained under?  He never gives the instructor's name, or the style he trained in really.  All he says is "I was taught by great masters in Asia".  

Oh please, don't use the disabled sympathy card.  Him being old and disabled has NOTHING to do with what he did.


----------



## A.R.K.

> I have a clean record



Not my point.  You and everyone else at one time or another has committed a crime in which they could be arrested, tried and convicted of...everyone of us.  I'm glad you have a clean record, hopefully it will stay that way.  But only because you were not caught.



> I can personally forgive him, if he stops all that nonesense, but looks like pappasan is back on the street not missing a beat.



Back on the street?  He never left free society.  He paid a small fine.  What nonesense is he commiting?  He founded a martial arts club house.  He doesn't claim anything for KYHA other than it being a fraternal organization.  Last time I checked that was still legal.



> You know what? Charity doesn't make you a good person. Look at some of the celebrities and politicians, some who do charity work are only doing it for the image. Is Stern doing it for the image? I can't say.



No you can't say.  But I can since I know him persoally and was actually there in person.  The seminar was a success and he was a hit.  Since there was no media present how would that help his 'image?'



> But who exactly has Stern trained under? He never gives the instructor's name



Really?  I thought it was pretty much straight forward...

"Grandmaster Jack Stern founded KYHA in 1960.  Originally KYHA only existed in the famous "Paja Dojo" in Brooklyn and was formed with its Hombu in Korea.  The original Dojang was under Grandmaster Tae Ju Chung (deceased) and its liaison officer was Grandmaster Gun Yi Choo.  At that time it was predominantly Judo students that registered their grades and ranks in Korea and their certificates were accepted and accepted and approved by the United States Judo Association (USJA) and in earlier days by the Armed Forces Judo Association (AFJA).  They were also recognized by the New York Yudanshakai, the International Judo Association (IJF) and the AAU, an amateur Judo association.

After the loss of Grandmaster Chung, KYHA was moved to Seoul in South Korea and with great assistance from our liaison officer KYHA managed to establish a link with Grandmaster Kangs Dojang.  In June of 1998, Grandmaster Stern made a return visit to Korea to meet Grandmaster Kang and also to revisit the sites from the Korean conflict, as the DMZ, the Pamunjon and a few other cities were setting up good will relations.   After a series of meetings it was decided to unite the disciplines of Martial Arts worldwide in the non-profit, non-politics way in which they were designed.  A brotherhood worldwide, or so to speak.  So with that in mind KYHA networked and as of today we are still growing rapidly with branches in over 25 countries. We are a independent branch in the U.S.A. and with WOMA (Saudi Arabia). We use the name KYHA, but we are a independent brotherhood not with KYA or any Hapkido association.

In 1964 Grandmaster Stern hosted the famous Mas. Oyama at the Paja Dojo, for which he received a special plaque which he still has today.  Also at this time Mas. Oyama held a big Karate tournament in Madison Square Gardens in New York.  In 1964 and 1965 Grandmaster Stern appeared with a special demonstration team, under Grandmaster Naraki Hara, at the New York worlds fair doing two shows a day at the Japanese Pavilion.   During that very busy year Grandmaster Stern also hosted, at his Paja Dojo, the Korean team from the Yudo college as they trained en route to the Pan American Games in south America."

In my opinion, to hold something from his past against him that he has atoined for is hypocritical.  

My opinon.


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *In my opinion, to hold something from his past against him that he has atoined for is hypocritical.  *



I think the problem is that he was forced to write letters of apology, but now he seems to be saying that he was not guilty and that it was all some sort of plot against him. If he fouled up, admits it and learned from the experience then forgiveness is called for. But if he is now denying guilt in what he did, then he does not show much remorse, learning, etc.

Which is it? The records say he confessed rather than chance a public trial with all the burdon of proof the prosecution would have to present. But now the story he seems to be telling is that he was not guilty. Attonement means that you admit what you did was wrong. I do not see that with this story of a police officer combining with various orginizations and CNN to destroy his reputation.

Can you provide proof to these sotries.? Or, for that matter, can you provide proof that we can view for ourselves to back up what you cut and pasted from his website about his training. For example, I have seen pictures of him with Mas Oyama and read a story about how he trained with him. But all the photo proves is that they were within picture taking range of each other. Everything else I would have to trust the word of Stern, and he has a criminal record for lying. Or I would have to trust David Schultz's word, and he is a Florida representative of Stern's orginization- not the most objective or trustworthy in my book.

Again, if independently verifiable proof can be presented, fine- let's see it. But to just argue and make snide comments about CNN and various members of the board is not going to solve anything.


----------



## A.R.K.

Interesting how you would comment about snide remarks....

At any rate, I have stated my opinon.  Believe as you wish.  If you have any further questions then contact him directly.  

BTW, I learned about an hour ago that legal action is pending against several parties for defamation of character.  We shall see...


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Not my point.  You and everyone else at one time or another has committed a crime in which they could be arrested, tried and convicted of...everyone of us.  I'm glad you have a clean record, hopefully it will stay that way.  But only because you were not caught.
> 
> 
> 
> Back on the street?  He never left free society.  He paid a small fine.  What nonesense is he commiting?  He founded a martial arts club house.  He doesn't claim anything for KYHA other than it being a fraternal organization.  Last time I checked that was still legal.
> 
> 
> 
> No you can't say.  But I can since I know him persoally and was actually there in person.  The seminar was a success and he was a hit.  Since there was no media present how would that help his 'image?'
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  I thought it was pretty much straight forward...
> 
> "Grandmaster Jack Stern founded KYHA in 1960.  Originally KYHA only existed in the famous "Paja Dojo" in Brooklyn and was formed with its Hombu in Korea.  The original Dojang was under Grandmaster Tae Ju Chung (deceased) and its liaison officer was Grandmaster Gun Yi Choo.  At that time it was predominantly Judo students that registered their grades and ranks in Korea and their certificates were accepted and accepted and approved by the United States Judo Association (USJA) and in earlier days by the Armed Forces Judo Association (AFJA).  They were also recognized by the New York Yudanshakai, the International Judo Association (IJF) and the AAU, an amateur Judo association.
> 
> After the loss of Grandmaster Chung, KYHA was moved to Seoul in South Korea and with great assistance from our liaison officer KYHA managed to establish a link with Grandmaster Kangs Dojang.  In June of 1998, Grandmaster Stern made a return visit to Korea to meet Grandmaster Kang and also to revisit the sites from the Korean conflict, as the DMZ, the Pamunjon and a few other cities were setting up good will relations.   After a series of meetings it was decided to unite the disciplines of Martial Arts worldwide in the non-profit, non-politics way in which they were designed.  A brotherhood worldwide, or so to speak.  So with that in mind KYHA networked and as of today we are still growing rapidly with branches in over 25 countries. We are a independent branch in the U.S.A. and with WOMA (Saudi Arabia). We use the name KYHA, but we are a independent brotherhood not with KYA or any Hapkido association.
> 
> In 1964 Grandmaster Stern hosted the famous Mas. Oyama at the Paja Dojo, for which he received a special plaque which he still has today.  Also at this time Mas. Oyama held a big Karate tournament in Madison Square Gardens in New York.  In 1964 and 1965 Grandmaster Stern appeared with a special demonstration team, under Grandmaster Naraki Hara, at the New York worlds fair doing two shows a day at the Japanese Pavilion.   During that very busy year Grandmaster Stern also hosted, at his Paja Dojo, the Korean team from the Yudo college as they trained en route to the Pan American Games in south America."
> 
> In my opinion, to hold something from his past against him that he has atoined for is hypocritical.
> 
> My opinon. *


Funny thing though is that all the sources on Tae Ju Chung and Gun Yi Choo all fall back to the KHYA.  Grandmaster Gun Yi Choo...  Grandmaster at what?  Never heard of Kang's dojang, so I can't comment on it.  The entire organization just seems to connect with people nobody really has ever heard of.

Naraki Hara is known, but the ONLY OUTSIDE SOURCE that associates his name with their organization is the KYHA.

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~kyha/AwardsAndRecognition.htm

Hmm, in 1998, he went to Korea where he was promoted to 8th dan.  8th dan in what?


----------



## KennethKu

Thanks for answering ARK for me, Robert.

ARK, FYI, NONE of us have bought a medal and pretend to something that wasn't true. Please don't compare us to Jack Stern, a convicted felon who is talking from both sides of his mouth.

Seriously, I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by arguing with just about everyone, insisting on calling a tail a leg, in almost every topic or thread.  Haven't you been causing nothing but argumentative stuffs ever since you join MT?  You keep arguing that everyone and everything under the sun is wrong, except you and those you are associated with, happen to be the only ones who are correct.  Insisting on calling a tail a leg, and defending the indefensible, is not going to accomplish anything.  I am sure you knew that already.

You keep telling people to research this and research that about you or your associates. And people have done exactly just that. What people have uncovered, only proved that people have been right about you all along.  The evidences are overwhelmingly against you. The facts are overwhelmingly against you.  What makes you think by constantly arguing the same old stuff is ever going to change what people already know about you and your associates?  What makes you think you can regain people's respect by arguing against them on the same on stuffs?   You are just wasting your time at a lost cause.  JMHO.

You want to present yourself like you are well educated and well-informed in MA, yet you haved posted opinions such as claim of rank is not verifiable or rank is arbirary, etc.   FYI, people in the MA community have long figured out how to go about in handling those problems. Yet the answers are still lost to you, as evidented by your posted opinions.  How do you expect people to take you seriously, when you do not know the answers to issues that some one of your rank should have known?  By being argumentative is not going to cut it, sir.


----------



## A.R.K.

Uh Ken, just because you say something doesn't make it true.  Here is a concept you should warm up to, I can post my observations, experiences and opinons just like everyone else here.  Many others seem to be satisfied and even appreciative of my contributions thus far.  If your not one of them, employ the ignore feature.  I can assure you I will not be offended.

In case you've missed the topic, it is about something other than me.  I have posted my position and opinon.  Feel free to do so as well...about the topic.  If others wish to use this thread to once again rehash their *unsubstantiated*  trash perhaps you should begin thinking for yourself and not jump on their bandwagon.  For all their whinning and crying and temper tantrums and tirads and obscene email....I'm still here and nothing has changed.  Except as a positive for me.  But I'm sure that doesn't interest you.

But hey, if you are unable to think for yourself, if your incapable of doing anything besides riding others coattail....please continue.  I'll miss you when your gone....well, not really. :shrug:


----------



## A.R.K.

*Note to the moderators.  Let the discussion between me and Ken slide a bit.  This is the proper forum for this, and since they are determined to continue to bring it up everywhere else on the board, despite your rules and warnings, let Ken and I hash it out right here and now.  Lets get it over with.  Thank you for your consideration.* 





> You keep telling people to research this and research that about you or your associates. And people have done exactly just that. What people have uncovered, only proved that people have been right about you all along. The evidences are overwhelmingly against you. The facts are overwhelmingly against you. What makes you think by constantly arguing the same old stuff is ever going to change what people already know about you and your associates? What makes you think you can regain people's respect by arguing against them on the same on stuffs? You are just wasting your time at a lost cause. JMHO.



This is called in debator's language hand-waving.  There of course is not one shred of proof to anything in your paragraph.  You have either deluded yourself or you are a liar.  You pick which is appropriate.  NO one has contacted me in reference to my LEO background.  I have waited patietly for anyone interested to do so, so that I can provide them with enough documentation and verification numbers and supervisors to choke a horse.  No takers...imagine that.

No one has contacted any of the associations which recognize my various ranks...not one person....*not one person.*   So how could any of my claims have been found to be in error?  Let me answer for you, since I know you won't...Since no one has check...no one could post to the negative.  Well not in any honest fashion.  But honesty doesn't seem to be a big problem with some posters here in there comments...imagine that.

Your buddy Robert allegedly called an organization in Okinawa [that probably doesn't exist anywhere except in his mind] to find I was not a member.  Wow    Since I never claimed membership in an Okinawan organization that proves exactly....zip.  Your buddy Don stated that if I could show him where I stated that prior to Robert's alleged phone call he would be convinced.  I showed him the exact qoute with the date and time 2 1/2 months prior to the fake phone call...not once but three times.  Each time I asked him if he was convinced.  He never had the courtesy to respond...not even once.  Suprise, surprise.  His only purpose here is to bolster Robert's sagging grudge against me.

Problems with Mr. Stern?  Fine, doesn't effect me, my rank, my training or my experience.  Not in the least.  I knew of problems before any poster here, and have proven it.  Despite anything else, my credentials don't hinge on KYHA.  As I've stated for quite some time, KYHA is a fraternal club house.  I didn't get any rank from them in any way, shape or form.  They recognized what I already had...big deal.  Anybody can recognize me to their hearts content.  Doesn't add to or take away from my teaching.


So what else ya got Ken?  Where is all the evidence thats been uncovered?  List it ALL here Ken so we can ALL take a look at it.

Well?  Lets go Ken.  Prove I'm not a member of every organization in which I've claimed to be a member.  Prove I don't hold the belts that I am recognized at.  





> You want to present yourself like you are well educated and well-informed in MA, yet you haved posted opinions such as claim of rank is not verifiable or rank is arbirary, etc. FYI, people in the MA community have long figured out how to go about in handling those problems. Yet the answers are still lost to you, as evidented by your posted opinions. How do you expect people to take you seriously, when you do not know the answers to issues that some one of your rank should have known? By being argumentative is not going to cut it, sir.



I'm not arguementative Ken, only annoyed at continually having to defend against *baseless, exageratted, unsubstantiated*  arguements.  Don't like my posts Ken?  Better go back and reread the threads again.  Seems like quite a few people do like my posts and hold similar or the same arguements.  Funny, I don't see you attacking them for their posts in every thread ole man...imagine that.  Seems alot of other people realize, and have posted that NO, you really CAN'T verify anything to everyone's satisfaction in the martial arts.  Funny that you haven't attacked them for stating what has obviously gone over your head.

So Ken, show your evidence that proves I don't have training in Shuri Te and paperwork to back it up.  Prove I don't have training in Pangainoon with paperwork to back it up.  Prove I haven't developed my own system and recieved international recognition from the organizations that I have listed.  Prove I am not a member of the organizations that I have claimed membership in.  Prove I am not an FDLE certified Police Instructor.  Prove I'm not employed as an adjunct intructor at SEPSI.  Prove I'm not a Detention Deputy.  Prove I'm not a military veteran.  

I've offered everything to anybody that has asked via email, PM and  Chatroom.  Since none of you have contacted me to get numbers and names etc then AND you have already made up your minds then you MUST have evidence of your own which proves the above in the negative.

So put up or shut up....ALL of you.


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *I've offered everything to anybody that has asked via email, PM and  Chatroom.*



I am getting tired of your constant attacks, slander and disruptions on these boards. If you have any proof to back what you say about Stern, please post it in such a way that anyone can check it for themselves.

And as for the above quote, that shall serve as an example, out of many possible. Ok, so you have offered to prove what you claim- who gave you your ranks and what orginization is it under? RyuShiKan has been screaming at you about this for a long time and you refuse to give any answer to anyone I know or trust. The quote above is patently false. You made a claim, actually several but I am making it simple by choosing one, and have refused to back it up. You have not given the name(s) of your teacher(s) for the ranks you claim on your web page to "anybody that has asked via email, PM and  Chatroom."

Now can we get back to Jack Stern and his orginizaition?


----------



## A.R.K.

> I am getting tired of your constant attacks, slander and disruptions on these boards.



Gosh Don, I could say the very same thing about you.  Your only purpose here is to run interference for Robert.  It's so transparent it's pathetic.



> who gave you your ranks and what orginization is it under? RyuShiKan has been screaming at you about this for a long time and you refuse to give any answer to anyone I know or trust. The quote above is patently false.



*you refuse to give any answer to anyone I know or trust. *

Oh Don...are you REAL sure about that?  You might want to run that through a couple more times first...never know when you'll have to eat those words or do your usual ignore dodge.  Nobody knows that you trust?  I've talked to quite a few people here in the media I've mentioned...sorry you weren't in the loop.  And I've offered for quite awhile for people to contact me personally...nobody yet.  So you just continue to whine about it.  

And I'll repeat what I posted earlier Don in case you missed it...



> I've offered everything to anybody that has asked via email, PM and Chatroom. Since none of you have contacted me to get numbers and names etc then AND you have already made up your minds then you MUST have evidence of your own which proves the above in the negative.



You came in here already hot for my blood.  Since my rank is not on my profile and I have barely mentioned it before you became a member and I don't think I've mentioned it at all since you've been a member AND you already had a hard on for me...whats your problem or whats your proof?  Your a shill for Robert plain and simple Don.  Don't pretend your not.

So I repeat Don, since you have not checked out my background, contacted the organizations that recognize my rank, verified my employment status or work history by contacting me for information...AND you have a hard on for me anyway...you must have gathered information.... 



> that proves I don't have training in Shuri Te and paperwork to back it up. Prove I don't have training in Pangainoon with paperwork to back it up. Prove I haven't developed my own system and recieved international recognition from the organizations that I have listed. Prove I am not a member of the organizations that I have claimed membership in. Prove I am not an FDLE certified Police Instructor. Prove I'm not employed as an adjunct intructor at SEPSI. Prove I'm not a Detention Deputy. Prove I'm not a military veteran.



So WHAT IS YOUR PROOF?  Don't whine about me being less than forthcoming, my email is quite easy to obtain.  Just ask your buddy Robert about his love notes on my email.  So since you had a burn for me from the starting gate you MUST have something against me in terms of evidence WITHOUT the need for me to provide anything for you.  So what is it?  Why the stall.  Post it here and post it now.  You already had your preconcieved idea so you don't need anything from me.  Post it or shut up.

Oh and by the by, since your here, again, You posted that you would be convinced if I showed you that my post on Pangainoon preceeded Roberts fantasy phone call.  I have shown you proof three times now and asked if BY YOUR OWN WORDS you are convinced.  You have refused to answer every time.  So I ask you again...are you convinced?  To say YES of course means you lose face and to say no means your own words are worthless.  Which is it going to be?  I suppose you could just ignore it again...that dodge is a lot easier and its been working for you great so far.


----------



## RyuShiKan

Don, 

This has become a moot point. Its pointless to continue.
Far too much valuable time has been wasted on this subject as it is.
It has gone round and round like a dog chasing its tailand quite frankly IM getting dizzy just from watching all of it.time to move on????





> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> * Chufeng, I've got no problem with you. RSK your an idiot. Mods forgive me, but enough is enough...he's an idiot. . *


----------



## Kirk

A.R.K.   I don't have any beef with you, you're not -my- instructor.
If your students are happy, fine.  I haven't attacked you in any
way, I'm sincerely curious.  Potential students can come here,
and read all the posts here ... why not post a scan of your cert
*here* for all to see?  I don't get it.


----------



## A.R.K.

> IM getting dizzy just from watching all of it.time to move on????



Does that mean your gonna knock off all of the crap?  Does that mean your gonna stop emailing me profanity?  Does that mean you don't have squat to justify your endless snide remarks?

Yeah, maybe its time to cut your loses.

Kirk,

I appreciate your inquiry.  And it is a point I've been taking about for several months now.  You CAN'T prove something to someone that doesn't want something to be proved.

Take a look at Ryushikan's post above.  Where he quotes me calling him an idiot.  Is that how I felt, yes it is.  Is that how I feel now, yes it is.  Was I out of line for saying so here, yes I was.  And I issued a humble public apology for saying it.  That was a LONG time ago.  But poor Robert got his feelings hurt and he's been bringing it up ever since.  He has followed me around with snide remark after snide remark.  He has emailed me obscene email stepped with hate.  Would you like me to forward them to you?  It might be important to see what Robert is really like when he is 'off stage'.  What kind of man he really is.  He has held his grudge for months now.

He has wrongly accused my of being another poster.  Proven wrong and earned him a suspension for running his mouth.

He has stated I'm a fraud becuase I don't belong to an Okinawan organization....that I NEVER claimed to be a member of.

He has flamed me about everything from wearing a belt in a photo to pictures on the wall behind me in a photo...that didn't even have anything to do with me.

He enlisted Don and others to e-mugg me.  Every chance he gets he drops some snide inuendo...that isn't valid, in the hopes of painting me in a bad light that doesn't exist.

Thread after thread gets shut because they come into the middle of a good discussion and hijack it to flame me.

So here we are in the right forum, again off topic, but in the right forum and I'm saying post the evidence I don't have what I claim to have or shut up and what do we get from the ring leader?  "I'm dizzy...time to move on Don ole buddy?"

Pathetic :shrug: 

I could post a cert...he'll just say I faked it.  I could post the name of my instructors...he'll just say they're my buddies covering for me etc etc etc  and on and on it goes.  He's not looking for REAL answers...he's pissed and wants to get his 'pound of flesh' from me for standing up to him on poinits in which I was both right and wrong.  

And Kirk, everyone that has actually taken the time and interest has come away satisfied that I'm a good guy, a good teacher, have experience and have my background.  This isn't a search for answeres...it's about personal vendetta on Robert's part.

Sorry it's had to go on for so long in so many places.  The only people that can stop it are Robert, Don and Ken by letting it rest.  We'll see if they are actually going to 'move on' won't we?

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan

Would you rather continue along these lines?
I thought you wanted to "move on".......


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Far too much valuable time has been wasted on this subject*



Don't forget memory--all this stuff is saved to disk for posterity.


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Don't forget memory--all this stuff is saved to disk for posterity. *



:rofl:


----------



## MartialArtist

If you make a claim, then you prove it, it's not the other way around.

In a court of law, if you claim that your neighbor bashed your truck, you're supposed to prove he did bash your truck, not how he didn't bash the truck.

I don't care what organizations you belong to, but from all the evidence so far, Stern's KYHA is bleh.

This thread isn't about ARK, but Stern and his organization.  Stern says he's trained under so and so, when nobody has heard of them.  Grandmasters are pretty well known all around the world, a simple search on the internet can tell you that.  Search for the people Stern has said he trained under, and all the sources lead back to the KYHA.  There are a couple of exceptions, but the whole thing isn't substantial enough to be taken as proof yet, and ARK, as a representative of the KYHA, would you care to share information on how he was associated with some of the grandmasters?

Stern's dan ranks.  In what did he get an 8th dan from?  From his history, there is basically no way he could've gotten an 8th dan from a legitimate organization in that short a time frame.  He just says 8th dan from some Korean guy.  Okay, 8th dan in what?  8th from whom?  Soke Fujiwara Xialong Chi-Fung Smith III?  Kwangjangnim Sun-jin Taeku Park Guillermo Pasillas Khaatir Muhammed William Alpin?  From what organization?  Cookiekwan?  The Alliance of Sokes Around the World?  Or did his own KYHA give him the dan rank?  Would you please straighten the thing out on Stern as a representative?


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## A.R.K.

Robert,

You wanna move on?  Fine by me.  But that means actually moving on, not wait a day or so then fire of some more snide remarks.

You wanna move on?  I'm all for it.  I'll lay it down and walk away without another word about it or agaisnt you.  I would expect the same courtesy, from ALL of you.  If it continues it will be by your hands.

Can we move on?

Peace.  And I mean it.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan

I can't speak for other people.......they can do as they please.

As for myself...........I have far too much to do off line.


----------



## MartialArtist

Anyway

http://www.usmartialartshalloffame.com/hof_index.html

This is one of Stern's accomplishments...  Being on this list.  Yeah, the hall of fame, that's awesome.  Problem is, look what organization gave him his hall of famer title.  Look who's in charge of it.  Soke PhD Marty Cale with a 10th degree BB in White Tiger (understandable because he founded the system), American *K*ombat Kickboxing (I don't know about that one), 6th dan in jujitsu ( :shrug: ), a 4th degree BB in Okinawa Te (RyuShiKan, what is that?), and a whole bunch of other ranks.

He is in the World Head of Society Heads and Founders Society of International Styles, headquartered in Kobe, Japan.
- RyuShiKan can elaborate on this one better than I can.

http://www.usmartialartshalloffame.com/pages/profcale.html - more of Mr. or should I say, *Dr. Cale* who majored in Martial Science :cough: :cough:

The funny thing though is that nobody even had to look.  The KYHA, like any other organization with questionable doings usually have ties to other questionable sources.  The people like to stick together is the saying.  So the links just lead to more questionable places, and it goes on.


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## A.R.K.

Peace

:asian:


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## A.R.K.

> Soke PhD Marty Cale with a 10th degree BB in White Tiger (understandable because he founded the system),



MA, this is a bit off topic, but it touches on something that Yiliquan 1 and I were discussing in the chat room a while back.  He has a 10th Dan for founding White Tiger of whatever, but that is really, in my opinon, an honorary rank.  Not something you 'wear'.  A person should wear the rank they have actually earned, whatever that may be.  The 'founders' rank can be for purposes of ownership and promoting those whom you train.  

It's perhaps ok to hang it on a wall in the school you've founded but perhaps a bit presumptious to walk around wearing it so to speak.  

Just a thought.  I don't know anything about this individual so I don't know what he does or does not do.

:asian:


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *MA, this is a bit off topic, but it touches on something that Yiliquan 1 and I were discussing in the chat room a while back.  He has a 10th Dan for founding White Tiger of whatever, but that is really, in my opinon, an honorary rank.  Not something you 'wear'.  A person should wear the rank they have actually earned, whatever that may be.  The 'founders' rank can be for purposes of ownership and promoting those whom you train.
> 
> It's perhaps ok to hang it on a wall in the school you've founded but perhaps a bit presumptious to walk around wearing it so to speak.
> 
> Just a thought.  I don't know anything about this individual so I don't know what he does or does not do.
> 
> :asian: *


How do you earn a rank in your own system?

I have no problem with his 10th dan, as he's the founder.  But some of his other claims are :rofl: The organization was listed on the KHYA website.  Seems that all the organization the guy belongs to, Stern also belongs to, and most of the other organizations on the site all belong to each other in one way or another.


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## A.R.K.

> How do you earn a rank in your own system?



I'm not sure this should really be an issue.  If a person founds a discipline then they have that Founder status and can promote those students that want  to learn from him/her.  I don't see where one would need to be promoted within their own system.

For example, Mr. Smith founds xyz discipline.  He receives recognition from one of the sources I have discussed in other threads.  He is the 10th Dan holder for purposes of founding the system.  Walking around 'wearing' the rank, in my humble opinon is not needed.  

If he has rank in other disciplines then he/she can always seek advancement in those disciplines along the normal procedures.

I don't know if this is the ultimate 'right' answer, but it is one I wish to follow for myself.  I choose not to 'wear' 10th Dan.  I choose not be addressed as 'Grandmaster' or 'Professor' or whatever.  I choose to wear a simple unadorned black belt.  

As for this other fellow, I simply can't remark as I have no knowledge of him.

:asian:


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *For example, Mr. Smith founds xyz discipline.  He receives recognition from one of the sources I have discussed in other threads.  He is the 10th Dan holder for purposes of founding the system. *



Ed Parker founded American Kenpo Karate .. no one's ever 
mentioned to me that he recognition from anyone.



> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Walking around 'wearing' the rank, in my humble opinon is not
> needed.
> *



Ed Parker wore hs for marketing reasons.  But he would often
say "just because the stripes show, doesn't mean you know".


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## KennethKu

> ..This is called in debator's language hand-waving. There of course is not one shred of proof to anything in your paragraph. You have either deluded yourself or you are a liar. You pick which is appropriate. ..



Nice talking to you there.  



> NO one has contacted me in reference to my LEO background. I have waited patietly for anyone interested to do so, so that I can provide them with enough documentation and verification numbers and supervisors to choke a horse. No takers...imagine that.
> 
> No one has contacted any of the associations which recognize my various ranks...not one person....not one person. So how could any of my claims have been found to be in error? Let me answer for you, since I know you won't...Since no one has check...no one could post to the negative. Well not in any honest fashion. But honesty doesn't seem to be a big problem with some posters here in there comments...imagine that.



Facts: 
1. Robert called Pangainoon HQ in Japan. Everyone knows what he discovered.

2. KYHA that you represent in Florida, is a fraudulent front run by convicted felon Jack Stern.

3. Your master instructor, DAC of Florida, claimed 6th dan in TKD but he has no idea if it was Kukkiwon/WTF or not.  Anyone in TKD would laugh their *** off at such bizzare[sp] ignorance.  Neither him nor you seem to have a clue about the gravity of such lapse.

As to no one has called the associations that recognize your ranks (claims of ranks), because as you have pointed out, you people joined those associations to give each other reciprocal recognition of ranks. So, what is the point in calling them?



> Your buddy Robert allegedly called an organization in Okinawa [that probably doesn't exist anywhere except in his mind] to find I was not a member. Wow  Since I never claimed membership in an Okinawan organization that proves exactly....zip. Your buddy Don stated that if I could show him where I stated that prior to Robert's alleged phone call he would be convinced. I showed him the exact qoute with the date and time 2 1/2 months prior to the fake phone call...not once but three times. Each time I asked him if he was convinced. He never had the courtesy to respond...not even once. Suprise, surprise. His only purpose here is to bolster Robert's sagging grudge against me.


For the record, I have never discussed with Robert or Don on any matter regarding you.  Don and Robert are mutual friends. I am not part of the circle.

Would you like to substantiate your claim that the Pangainoon HQ in Okinawa doesn't exist?

The information Robert received from Pangainoon HQ in Okinawa, Japan, showed that the recognized authority in Pangainoon does not recognize nor even awares of your 8th dan claim in Pangainoon. Your failure to provide necessary information on your claim to 8th dan in Pangainoon results in the logical conclusion that your claim, until proven otherwise, remains an unverifiable claim of rank.  Surely you must agree on this point. (Remember your favourite line, "Just because you say it, doesn't mean it is true " )



> Problems with Mr. Stern? Fine, doesn't effect me, my rank, my training or my experience. Not in the least. I knew of problems before any poster here, and have proven it. Despite anything else, my credentials don't hinge on KYHA. As I've stated for quite some time, KYHA is a fraternal club house. I didn't get any rank from them in any way, shape or form. They recognized what I already had...big deal. Anybody can recognize me to their hearts content. Doesn't add to or take away from my teaching.



Your close association with,and enthusiastic endorsement of a convicted felon reflects unfavourably on you. It reflects either 1. you are ignorant of a critical fact that someone in your position should have known, (lack of due deligence on your part) or 2. You chose to associate with a convicted imposter with dubious moral and ethical value (poor judgement).  Furthermore, your resort to attacking everyone from the members of MT, to CNN, to the Court, to the police, for Jack Stern's legal, moral and ethical lapses, does not reflect well upon you neither. It smacks the smell of " it is everybody's fault, but mine."



> So what else ya got Ken? Where is all the evidence thats been uncovered? List it ALL here Ken so we can ALL take a look at it.
> 
> Well? Lets go Ken. Prove I'm not a member of every organization in which I've claimed to be a member. Prove I don't hold the belts that I am recognized at.



You have continoued to claim that claims of ranks on the internet cannot be proven.  I have posted info on how most legitimate organizations go about doing just that.  I personally don't believe your claim of 8th dan, and DAC's claim of 6th dan, simply because people with such high ranks, OUGHT to have known about the basic verfication of ranks. But you 2 DON"T have a clue.  Why is that?



> quote: You want to present yourself like you are well educated and well-informed in MA, yet you haved posted opinions such as claim of rank is not verifiable or rank is arbirary, etc. FYI, people in the MA community have long figured out how to go about in handling those problems. Yet the answers are still lost to you, as evidented by your posted opinions. How do you expect people to take you seriously, when you do not know the answers to issues that some one of your rank should have known? By being argumentative is not going to cut it, sir.
> 
> 
> I'm not arguementative Ken, only annoyed at continually having to defend against baseless, exageratted, unsubstantiated arguements. Don't like my posts Ken? Better go back and reread the threads again. Seems like quite a few people do like my posts and hold similar or the same arguements. Funny, I don't see you attacking them for their posts in every thread ole man...imagine that. Seems alot of other people realize, and have posted that NO, you really CAN'T verify anything to everyone's satisfaction in the martial arts. Funny that you haven't attacked them for stating what has obviously gone over your head.


I have rebutted your student/master instructor in ARK, DAC. I have refuted others.  I have posted info on verification of claims of ranks.  If you missed them, that is not my responsibility.  Please do not try to make it sounded like there was this conspiracy to "get" you.  



> So Ken, show your evidence that proves I don't have training in Shuri Te and paperwork to back it up. Prove I don't have training in Pangainoon with paperwork to back it up. Prove I haven't developed my own system and recieved international recognition from the organizations that I have listed. Prove I am not a member of the organizations that I have claimed membership in. Prove I am not an FDLE certified Police Instructor. Prove I'm not employed as an adjunct intructor at SEPSI. Prove I'm not a Detention Deputy. Prove I'm not a military veteran.
> 
> I've offered everything to anybody that has asked via email, PM and Chatroom. Since none of you have contacted me to get numbers and names etc then AND you have already made up your minds then you MUST have evidence of your own which proves the above in the negative.
> 
> So put up or shut up....ALL of you.



You made the claims, you have the burden of proof. Surely being a LEO, you ought to understand the concept of burden of proof.


----------



## KennethKu

If your response is going to be something along the line, "There of course is not one shred of proof to anything in your paragraph. You have either deluded yourself or you are a liar....."  then please don't bother to.  It will be just running in circle, again, for the 10 million times...


----------



## Disco

I have been trying to investigate proof of rank and affiliation on some for the last month. I have contacted the TKD(USTU) for Kukkiwon verification and received no response (a month). The other organizations (Judo) I have also had no response. These are the Major world organizations and I can't get the time of day from them. Makes it hard to validate or unvalidate anything. 

Just for correction's sake; the burden of proof in a court of law is on the prosecution.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *
> Just for correction's sake; the burden of proof in a court of law is on the prosecution. *




True.
However, this is not a court of law and nobody is being charged with a crime. People have been asked for proof to a claim.

If someone claims something the burden of proof is on them since they are the only ones that have the means to prove what they claim.

It is also easier to prove something does exist than does not. 

For example if I claim that a certain animal exists it is far easier and more logical for me to show proof that it does exist than for someone else to scour the earth proving it does not.

Another example:

If someone claims ownership of a piece of property (car, house etc) they are required to produce a piece of paper, as when you are pulled over by the police while driving, to prove ownership OR they can direct the other party to some office that those records are kept.

As in the example when pulled over.if you dont produce proof of ownership/insurance of the vehicle you are driving the officer will most likely become suspicious as to why you dont have any or wont produce any. The easiest way to avoid any trouble in such circumstances it to produce the proper paper work for the car you claim to be yours.


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> Just for correction's sake; the burden of proof in a court of law is on the prosecution.



No one is prosecuting anyone here.  Some people seem to willing to subscribe to the infantile argument that what they claim to be true, must be true and it is up to someelse to disprove them.  That may be the rule when you are a baby.  In the real world, when you claim to be a 8th dan in Pangainoon or 6th dan in TKD or whatever, it remains an unverified claim, untill proven other wise. It is up to the person making the claim to provide all the necessary information needed to PROVE/VERIFY his claim. Because it is his benefits to make his claim independently verifiable.   If you are unable to provide the necessary information, then you simply have to accept the fact that your claim has not been verified. You do not get indignant about it and demand people to accept your word as is. That is juvenile.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *In the real world, when you claim to be a 8th dan in Pangainoon or 6th dan in TKD or whatever, it remains an unverified claim, untill proven other wise. *




Let's not even go there again.............why don't we keep it a little more general just for the sake of peace on the board.


----------



## KennethKu

Surely any reasonable adult would have the basic honesty and deceny to admit to the fact that his claims cannot be considered *verified* on the basis of his own words alone.  Has this forum sunken below such basic standard now that it has to cater to infantile members? I don't think so.


----------



## A.R.K.

Kirk,

Good point about Parker and the marketing aspect.  I was thinking along the lines of simply a foundership so to speak.  Also age requirements could come into play in a genereal sence as well.  

Disco,

Correct.  It can be difficult to obtain information from some organizations, especially in a timely manner.

Ken,

Whatever    You may believe whatever you wish on the matter.  It is of little concern and it is no longer of interest.  

:asian:


----------



## KennethKu

There are others who have made unverified claims of ranks and capabilities. Some people claimed to have used Dim-Mak (sp), some people claimed to have performed advanced Muay Thai technique when they have only trained for less than a few months.  That alone, does not mean much. They are only making a fool of themselves.  Problems arise when people go about flaunting their unverified claims to bolster *erroneous, misleading, ill-informed* opinions presented as facts.  If such actions are left unrebutted, that would cause harm to the innocent members who might be taken by bogus claims of ranks and/or credentials.  Therefore, people who post incorrect institutional information and/or advice, will be confronted and compelled to substantiate they posts.    They have no one to blame but themselves.

People who do not mislead other members would have nothing to be concerned about.


----------



## A.R.K.

Thankfully that doesn't seem to apply to any one here.

But we'll all keep a sharp eye out Ken.

:asian:


----------



## KennethKu

Whatever. We have always resort to letting the facts and evidence speak for themselves.  Let the truth be known and the members will be able to judge for themselves, without the need for "editorialized spins".


----------



## A.R.K.

You sure do use 'we' alot.  At any rate I'm all for letting people judge others on the validity of their posts.


----------



## KennethKu

I wouldn't dare to think that such basic things are my "OWN" ideas. How presumptuous!


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *Nice talking to you there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Your master instructor, DAC of Florida, claimed 6th dan in TKD but he has no idea if it was Kukkiwon/WTF or not.  Anyone in TKD would laugh their *** off at such bizzare[sp] ignorance.  Neither him nor you seem to have a clue about the gravity of such lapse.
> 
> I have rebutted your student/master instructor in ARK, DAC. I have refuted others.  I have posted info on verification of claims of ranks.  If you missed them, that is not my responsibility.  Please do not try to make it sounded like there was this conspiracy to "get" you.
> 
> 
> Ken,
> 
> If you have a problem with ARK fine but dont use me as a tool against him, ARK was not the one who promoted me to 6th in TKD so why is that his problem!*


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *Ok folks,
> Please stop the screaming at each other. Let me sum this all up.
> 
> David Schultz is a member of the orginization. Thus his word can not be taken as an objective position. The fact is, he can not provide any proof to back up what he says about the matter. We have to go by his word alone. To most of us, that is not enough.
> 
> The facts that we can see are in the court records and such. As Robert Carver pointed out, in those records we can see that Jack Stern wrote this,
> 
> 
> 
> So we see this, and we naturally think that the story that Stern merely bought the medal is without merit. If any proof can be presented to counter this, I would welcome it. However, considering the history that David Schultz has had with Jack Stern (as pointed out by RyuShiKan) we cannot take what he says at face value without supporting evidence. That evidence will probably never be made availible to the public and is supposably in the possesion of Jack Stern. If Stern does not wish to make this evidence that he says will clear his name availible to the world, then he and his supporters can not blame the world for not believing it actually exists. So until such proof can be presented, all the snide coments about each other and sources such as CNN does not accomplish much. *




Don,

why would  Jack Stern's past affect wether or not ARK'S word is good or not? Just because he is a member of that organization does'nt make his word not credible?

Maybe Stern made a mistake, havnt we all! Who are you or anyone else to judge him!

Just because he made a mistake does that mean that his organization is any less credible!

My father always told me that people who thrive on belittling others are the ones who have the true issues, does this aply to you don.

:asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Don,
> 
> why would  Jack Stern's past affect wether or not ARK'S word is good or not? Just because he is a member of that organization does'nt make his word not credible?
> 
> Maybe Stern made a mistake, havnt we all! Who are you or anyone else to judge him!
> 
> Just because he made a mistake does that mean that his organization is any less credible!
> 
> My father always told me that people who thrive on belittling others are the ones who have the true issues, does this aply to you don.
> 
> :asian: *


I think him being a convicted felon, him not being trained in any of the arts his organization implies (which is ironic), etc.  And no, just because his organization has some hapkido and yudo members should not dictate the name of HIS organization, rather what he trains under which is for all we know, nothing credible.


----------



## Disco

First, I am not a member of subject organization. Second, I personally find it reprehensible on the medal issue. I was just curious to some of the background.

I've managed to do a little checking. Mr. Stern was a judoka. The USJA stated that he was a member years ago, but is no longer a member. That's all the info they would supply. I was told that he was a NYC detective. I checked with the NYPD, but they would not release any info. They instead sent me a questionaire asking for the same info I was asking from them??

As far as the criminal aspect goes, he is not a felon. What he was charged with was a 3rd degree misdemeanor. If you get a moving traffic ticket it's the same thing. The courts just treat them differently to avoid major overflow within the jail and court systems. Remember, if you refuse to sign a traffic ticket, next stop is jail. 
:asian:


----------



## DAC..florida

Disco,

I am a member of KYHA and I dont see what all the fuss is about, so Mr. stern made a mistake who hasnt.

I remember reading somwhere judge not lest ye be judged, and I wouldnt want someone judging me for my mistakes, the man made a mistake and has paid his debt. to society. Does this mean he has no rank? Does this prove he is a liar or a cheat? Does this mean that he has no knowledge to share of his experiences in life?

My answer to all of these questions is NO!

Jack stern is a great man who has acomplished more in his lifetime than most of us will ever accomplish. Perhaps jealousy is the reason so many are so quick to critisize this mans mistake.
  P.S. let me just say for those who have nothing better to do than finding the faults of others we all have skeletons in our closets and i hope someday someone finds yours and spreads your name all over the internet, then maybe you will get a taste of your own medicine.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *First, I am not a member of subject organization. Second, I personally find it reprehensible on the medal issue. I was just curious to some of the background.
> 
> I've managed to do a little checking. Mr. Stern was a judoka. The USJA stated that he was a member years ago, but is no longer a member. That's all the info they would supply. I was told that he was a NYC detective. I checked with the NYPD, but they would not release any info. They instead sent me a questionaire asking for the same info I was asking from them??
> 
> As far as the criminal aspect goes, he is not a felon. What he was charged with was a 3rd degree misdemeanor. If you get a moving traffic ticket it's the same thing. The courts just treat them differently to avoid major overflow within the jail and court systems. Remember, if you refuse to sign a traffic ticket, next stop is jail.
> :asian: *


Ok, he is not a felon, I guess making a mockery of the greatest award the country has to offer isn't a felony, even if he confessed it was never issued to him


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *I think him being a convicted felon, him not being trained in any of the arts his organization implies (which is ironic), etc.  And no, just because his organization has some hapkido and yudo members should not dictate the name of HIS organization, rather what he trains under which is for all we know, nothing credible. *






Martial Artist,
 Mr. stern spent time in korea and his friend who originally started the KYHA with him is korean i guess that is the reason for the name I got that just by reading the web site why dont you read the entire web site and maybe some of your questions will be answered.

:asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Disco,
> 
> I am a member of KYHA and I dont see what all the fuss is about, so Mr. stern made a mistake who hasnt.
> 
> I remember reading somwhere judge not lest ye be judged, and I wouldnt want someone judging me for my mistakes, the man made a mistake and has paid his debt. to society. Does this mean he has no rank? Does this prove he is a liar or a cheat? Does this mean that he has no knowledge to share of his experiences in life?
> 
> My answer to all of these questions is NO!
> 
> Jack stern is a great man who has acomplished more in his lifetime than most of us will ever accomplish. Perhaps jealousy is the reason so many are so quick to critisize this mans mistake.
> P.S. let me just say for those who have nothing better to do than finding the faults of others we all have skeletons in our closets and i hope someday someone finds yours and spreads your name all over the internet, then maybe you will get a taste of your own medicine. *


He hasn't accomplished anything unique in particular.  He just seems like the normal charitable guy who goes to seminars, has some training in the MA.  Jealousy?  Sorry, I don't think I'm jealous of him but nice try.  If I was jealous of someone, it would be with the likes of someone like Musashi, Yip Man, or Gen. Choi.  I don't know Stern personally, but facts are facts.  He lied about a GREAT deal many things (as listed on the website posted previously), uses terms like soke incorrectly, has never formally trained in the arts that are in the name of his organization, etc.  That's the problem there.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *He hasn't accomplished anything unique in particular.  He just seems like the normal charitable guy who goes to seminars, has some training in the MA.  Jealousy?  Sorry, I don't think I'm jealous of him but nice try.  If I was jealous of someone, it would be with the likes of someone like Musashi, Yip Man, or Gen. Choi.  I don't know Stern personally, but facts are facts.  He lied about a GREAT deal many things (as listed on the website posted previously), uses terms like soke incorrectly, has never formally trained in the arts that are in the name of his organization, etc.  That's the problem there. *



I have met him and concider him a friend, he has acomplished many things and does have certified rank as ARK had pointed out earlier, I have learned much from him and agree to disagree with you here.

:asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I have met him and concider him a friend, he has acomplished many things and does have certified rank as ARK had pointed out earlier, I have learned much from him and agree to disagree with you here.
> 
> :asian: *


Yeah, you can learn a lot from him, that's all right if it's all right with you.

But the problem is that his organization is iffy, and so is his rank.  His usage of certain terms = :rofl: .  Never had real formal training from the information his website gives.  ARK never gave anything on rank.  ARK just defended him on how everyone makes mistakes and how he is a good friend.

According to the source listed above, Stern never visited Asia to train until after his organization.



> Stern never set foot in a continent where blood was shed.
> Broward Sheriff's Office Sgt. Danny Ciacciarelli


I'm pretty sure he visited Asia, but I'm guessing that was after his organization.  If it was before, then fine, but he also stated that he learned MA from the "great masters in Asia" when he has not visited Asia in that time period.



> If Stern was never in the armed forces in the Far East, it becomes obvious that the stories of training with the great masters of the Far East is just one more lie. Stern never trained in martial arts overseas. In sounds kind of redundant to say he was never in the CIA and never served with Air America.





> There is no data to substantiate Mr. Stern's 50 years in Judo. However, someone that had the certificate in Japanese translated, (which Mr. Stern claims names him as inheritor of a Jiu Jitsu system) states that all the certificate says is that Stern is authorized to teach that system in South Florida.





> The cruelest hoax was the one he perpetuated on his own students. While teaching in the Weston school, he charged everyone for membership in the Korean Yudo Association, who issued rank certificates. This turns out to be an nonexistent organization in the State of Florida. It has no corporation papers, no D.B.A. records, no bank account and has filed no tax returns. Certificates were worthless - just as the similar promotion certificates he supposedly got from Korea are worthless.
> 
> What Mr. Stern had hanging on the wall in early 1996 pertaining to his rank were two certificates. One for 6th Dan issued by the nonexistent Korean Yudo Association, signed by himself, dated 1995. The other one supposedly came from Korea in the same year for 7th Dan. Basically Mr. Stern's claim to rank based on those two certificates is worthless.



He may be your friend, and he might have something to teach.  But the problem still stands.  Whatever he gives out is just really expensive toilet paper.


----------



## DAC..florida

Martial artist,

Things are not always black and white sometimes there are gray areas, if you were to meet Jack Stern you would see that he is very knowledgeable in the martial arts. He could show you the hundreds of pictures and video tapes of his visits with asian masters both in asia and them coming to visit him. Dont believe everything you read or see some people will twist the truth to fit thier needs, even some police!
:asian:


----------



## Disco

I thought I already stipulated that Mr. Stern was a Judoka with prior membership to the USJA. To me that means that he has verified formal training. Now just how much, I don't know. The only reason I state this is that this was stated in a prior post and was apparently ignored. I get a little miffed when I take the time to do some research, to try to add some information to a thread and it gets ignored because it dosen't suit someone's agenda for their argument. It makes that someone look foolish to other's when they read the entire thread.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *I thought I already stipulated that Mr. Stern was a Judoka with prior membership to the USJA. To me that means that he has verified formal training. Now just how much, I don't know. The only reason I state this is that this was stated in a prior post and was apparently ignored. I get a little miffed when I take the time to do some research, to try to add some information to a thread and it gets ignored because it dosen't suit someone's agenda for their argument. It makes that someone look foolish to other's when they read the entire thread. *


Maybe I should have clarified.

Formal training in the sense where he stated training with the "great masters in Asia".  The source that was provided a while back and the quotes I posted stated that he did have the certificate to teach in South Florida.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Martial artist,
> 
> Things are not always black and white sometimes there are gray areas, if you were to meet Jack Stern you would see that he is very knowledgeable in the martial arts. He could show you the hundreds of pictures and video tapes of his visits with asian masters both in asia and them coming to visit him. Dont believe everything you read or see some people will twist the truth to fit thier needs, even some police!
> :asian: *


I don't doubt that many "great Asian men" were in the vicinity to be able to have a picture with them, or that he has gone to Asia.  But did he train the way he stated, with the great Asian super masters for many years?  I doubt that, and it stated that he hasn't left the continent.  Today, I bet that he has travelled to Asia...  But not to train in the way he claimed.

Stern might know a lot, that's great.  There are people who know a lot about fighting, about philosophy, and there are people who can quote Bruce Lee or Ed Parker from the top of their head.  There are those who can fight, and those who have a good grasp on what martial arts really is (although nobody understands completely).  But like I've said, it doesn't change anything.  You might train under him, great.  If I was impressed with his abilities, I might train with him.  But I wouldn't take anything tangible he gives me worth a crap, nor would I believe any more of his stories.  But yeah, I'm jealous.  My son never won a gold medal in the 1987 Olympics, or any Olympics for that matter. :rofl:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *I thought I already stipulated that Mr. Stern was a Judoka with prior membership to the USJA. To me that means that he has verified formal training. Now just how much, I don't know. The only reason I state this is that this was stated in a prior post and was apparently ignored. I get a little miffed when I take the time to do some research, to try to add some information to a thread and it gets ignored because it dosen't suit someone's agenda for their argument. It makes that someone look foolish to other's when they read the entire thread. *


And again, maybe you should try reading the whole thread like you claim.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8086&perpage=15&pagenumber=5 - last post on the page


----------



## Disco

Post the same thing twice? First time you specify "YOU" should have been more specific. Now the second post says "I" should fully read. Sounds contradictory to me.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *Post the same thing twice? First time you specify "YOU" should have been more specific. Now the second post says "I" should fully read. Sounds contradictory to me. *


 Not really.

I should have clarified more on what I meant by how Stern was never formally trained.

The other was that you should read more carefully on how I posted that he did have the certificates to teach in that region.

Nothing contradictory there, but thumbs up on your attempt. :rofl:


----------



## A.R.K.

I thought this had been put to bed quite some time ago...

Was Mr. Stern convicted of a misd around ten years ago?  Yes.

Did Mr. Stern pay his debt to society?  Yes...a small fine and letters of apology.

Does Mr. Stern have formal training?  Yes, with the instructors he lists.  For more years than many here have been alive.

Did Mr. Stern formally hold rank with legitimate organizations?  Yes, with at least two that I am aware of.

Is KYHA only for yudo & hapkido?  No, it is open to any discipline, any rank.

Does KYHA issue rank?  No, it recognizes you at what ever rank you have earned through others.

Does KYHA claim to be the 'official' organization for a particular country or discipline?  No, KYHA repeatedly states it is a fraternal organization only.

Does Mr. Stern travel the world teaching seminars at the request of discipline Grandmasters and even Leaders of countries?  Yes he does and he receives the red carpet treatment befitting a man of his Martial experience, years of training and commitment to the arts.

Is KYHA a money making business?  No, in fact Mr. Stern loses money running it.  He lives on a fixed pension and sponsors MA's into KYHA that cannot afford the membership fee.  In other words he pays for the underpriveleged MA out of his own pocket.

What does he charge to fly in and teach a seminar?  I have never seen him charge a penny and he flies in on his own $.  As stated before he has helped GMAST tremendously by giving of his time and knowldge for free.  He is the kind of man that would give you the shirt off his back.

I am planning, in conjunction with other members of ILMAM/GMAST to again host him later this summer for a seminar.

Have a wonderful day.

:asian:


----------



## Rick Tsubota

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *
> 
> Was Mr. Stern convicted of a misd around ten years ago? Yes.
> *


 



So you admit he has a background of being dishonest then.





> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Does Mr. Stern have formal training? Yes, with the instructors he lists. For more years than many here have been alive.
> 
> *


 



But how can he be trusted since he has lied about his background before?



You both seem good at making martial arts organizations on paper to give rank to people but you then say rank has no meaning.



You are the guy that I have been reading about that always says rank has no meaning for you but you are a member of a group that recognizes it.

Sounds like you are cheating people or just lying to them since the organization you belong exists for the purpose of doing what you don't believe in.

Why give rank if it has no meaning? Why even talk about it?

You seem to talk about it alot therefore I think you really care about it no matter what you write here.

Why would you say one thing but do another?

After reading some of what you write on here it seems to be you way to do things.



Based on what I have read I dont trust him or you.










> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Does KYHA issue rank? No, it recognizes you at what ever rank you have earned through others.
> 
> *


 





What gives them the right to recognize rank?

Why do they recognize rank? 






> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Does Mr. Stern travel the world teaching seminars at the request of discipline Grandmasters and even Leaders of countries? Yes he does and he receives the red carpet treatment befitting a man of his Martial experience, years of training and commitment to the arts.
> 
> *


 





Which grandmasters?

Which leaders?

What does he give seminar in?







> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *What does he charge to fly in and teach a seminar? I have never seen him charge a penny and he flies in on his own $. As stated before he has helped GMAST tremendously by giving of his time and knowldge for free. He is the kind of man that would give you the shirt off his back.
> 
> *








If thats the case great!

Have him come to my dojo and teach seminar for free.
When can he come?


----------



## Shuri-te

ARK,

From everything you have said, Mr. Stern sounds like a good and decent man, one who is devoted to his art, and one who has a good reputation for both his skills as well his teaching of the art. But don't expect to convince those who are not interested in your views. 

Don't you find it interesting how people can become so completely obsessed with a martial artist they have never met, nor even know anyone who has trained with him? Yet they can become utterly convinced of the righteousness of their judgment regarding how skilled or how effective a teacher this person is. 

Of course your personal understanding of the worth of this man means nothing to the court of Internet opinion. On the web, slander is cheap and easy for those determined to belittle the worth of a man. Oddly, the relentless disparagement is not targeted at his skill, his teaching, or his years of devotion to his art. Rather, the clamor stems from a completely unrelated issue, whether this person has received ranking in a system that does not pass their arbitrary test of authenticity. If so, then the investigation is begun seeking anything damaging in the person's background. Criminal convictions, are an especially good find to support the ceaseless stream of criticism. 

Around the world we have legions of arrogant, self-centered, egotistical martial artists with high rank from "authentic" organizations. Are the arbiters of authenticity one bit concerned with the character, or lack thereof, of these people. Of course not. They have rank from organizations deemed authentic, so they are beyond reproach. There is no need to investigate their backgrounds.

Should you choose to associate with a martial artist who in your opinion is both skilled, and also is a concerned, understanding and caring person, you now need to proceed cautiously. You must first determine whether he has rank certified from organizations deemed authentic by the self-appointed experts. If not, it is highly advised to do a search to uncover any criminal convictions published on the Net. 

If not, beware. You yourself just might be swept up in a torrent of criticism and invective. Trust me. It's been known to happen.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *ARK,
> 
> From everything you have said, Mr. Stern sounds like a good and decent man, one who is devoted to his art, and one who has a good reputation for both his skills as well his teaching of the art. But don't expect to convince those who are not interested in your views.
> 
> Don't you find it interesting how people can become so completely obsessed with a martial artist they have never met, nor even know anyone who has trained with him? Yet they can become utterly convinced of the righteousness of their judgment regarding how skilled or how effective a teacher this person is.
> 
> Of course your personal understanding of the worth of this man means nothing to the court of Internet opinion. On the web, slander is cheap and easy for those determined to belittle the worth of a man. Oddly, the relentless disparagement is not targeted at his skill, his teaching, or his years of devotion to his art. Rather, the clamor stems from a completely unrelated issue, whether this person has received ranking in a system that does not pass their arbitrary test of authenticity. If so, then the investigation is begun seeking anything damaging in the person's background. Criminal convictions, are an especially good find to support the ceaseless stream of criticism.
> 
> Around the world we have legions of arrogant, self-centered, egotistical martial artists with high rank from "authentic" organizations. Are the arbiters of authenticity one bit concerned with the character, or lack thereof, of these people. Of course not. They have rank from organizations deemed authentic, so they are beyond reproach. There is no need to investigate their backgrounds.
> 
> Should you choose to associate with a martial artist who in your opinion is both skilled, and also is a concerned, understanding and caring person, you now need to proceed cautiously. You must first determine whether he has rank certified from organizations deemed authentic by the self-appointed experts. If not, it is highly advised to do a search to uncover any criminal convictions published on the Net.
> 
> If not, beware. You yourself just might be swept up in a torrent of criticism and invective. Trust me. It's been known to happen. *


Oh well, whatever suits your boat.

CNN or the word of ARK & DAC who are members of his organization...


----------



## MartialArtist

And why is it that the people who claim such high ranks yet have never proved it (I believe you ARK as you started your own thing so hence a 10th is pretty much standard) go around liking the man they have never meant :cough: Shuri-te :cough:


----------



## Rick Tsubota

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *ARK,
> 
> From everything you have said, Mr. Stern sounds like a good and decent man, one who is devoted to his art, and one who has a good reputation for both his skills as well his teaching of the art. But don't expect to convince those who are not interested in your views.
> 
> Don't you find it interesting how people can become so completely obsessed with a martial artist they have never met, nor even know anyone who has trained with him? Yet they can become utterly convinced of the righteousness of their judgment regarding how skilled or how effective a teacher this person is.
> 
> Of course your personal understanding of the worth of this man means nothing to the court of Internet opinion. On the web, slander is cheap and easy for those determined to belittle the worth of a man. Oddly, the relentless disparagement is not targeted at his skill, his teaching, or his years of devotion to his art. Rather, the clamor stems from a completely unrelated issue, whether this person has received ranking in a system that does not pass their arbitrary test of authenticity. If so, then the investigation is begun seeking anything damaging in the person's background. Criminal convictions, are an especially good find to support the ceaseless stream of criticism.
> 
> Around the world we have legions of arrogant, self-centered, egotistical martial artists with high rank from "authentic" organizations. Are the arbiters of authenticity one bit concerned with the character, or lack thereof, of these people. Of course not. They have rank from organizations deemed authentic, so they are beyond reproach. There is no need to investigate their backgrounds.
> 
> Should you choose to associate with a martial artist who in your opinion is both skilled, and also is a concerned, understanding and caring person, you now need to proceed cautiously. You must first determine whether he has rank certified from organizations deemed authentic by the self-appointed experts. If not, it is highly advised to do a search to uncover any criminal convictions published on the Net.
> 
> If not, beware. You yourself just might be swept up in a torrent of criticism and invective. Trust me. It's been known to happen. *




Shurite, 

I read some posts here that found out you were lying and pretending to be two people at the same time on here so I am not surprised you wrote that post. You got caught and were given some punishment many people don't trust you because you lied to them. 

If I have money problems like bankruptcy or credit card fruad I don't think too many banks will make a line to give me a loan or credit card even if they meet in me in real life and find out what a nice guy I am.


----------



## Shuri-te

Rick,

How about a deal, I will share some background about myself, if you will share some background about yourself. 

I discovered this board in September of last year. I thought I had something to offer. It is opinion of many that some of my interpretations of kata are much better than what many dojos do. I like to share these ideas. So I asked a simple question, Would anyone like to exchange bunkai. 

Your alter ego, RyuShiKan, promptly set to work on me, as he has to so many others on this forum. He challenged all sorts of things about me. He ridiculed the fact that I find great value in going to as many Shuri-te dojos as I can, and that I cross train in grappling systems. He really disliked addressing me as Sensei Mike, and in retrospect I recognize that it was a poor choice of IDs. I picked it for one simple reason. My students call me that, and I wanted an ID where they could easily find and read my posts.

However, your alter ego and his friends quickly made me realize that Martial Talk was not the friendly forum it was advertised to be. I read some of your alter ego's attacks on others, and thought I would give him a taste of his own medicine. 

But, as ARK and DAC have learned, there is no winning against a coordinated attack. After the thread was shut down, one of your alter ego's "friends" were questioning the very foundation of my posts. I have over 200 combinations of movements from kata that follow the sequential movements. And they work. But your alter ego has been taught that they can't work, that if you string together a movement ABCD, or BC, or DEF, that you can't have a good technique. But that is flat out wrong. But to "prove" me wrong, a survey was done. "How many people use consecutive movements for kata interpretation" as if that is supposed to disprove my approach, which I had qualified on several occasions as being one of several valid ones.

I learned two important lessons. The first is something your alter ego knows well. You can't describe movements in text in a meaningful way, in a format that is good for this site. It takes too much text to do the job, and nobody wants to read it. I learned the tried and true maxim that a picture (better a video) is worth a thousand words. My thousands of words just aren't the answer. My videos are, and are in process of being posted on the web for all to see.

The second lesson was that at times, MT was friendly in name only. Once your alter ego and his buddy's decided that you were to be dismissed, ridiculed and ignored, you didn't have a chance.

So I left the forum. I had better things to do.

In February, I wanted to gather information on a question that to me goes to the root of why so much kata winds up being useless. I asked the question on Fightingarts.com, and thought what the hell, I would go back to MartialTalk. But, in the intervening 4 months, I had forgotten my password. Not only that, I had forgotten the email account, and password I had created for my MT communication.

I could have asked the admins to have my password reset. But being that your alter ego had ridiculed my ID (student Mike, he called me), I felt it appropriate to create a new ID. I must apologize to the MT admins, and Kaith the owner for misusing the forum. Your alter ego was his obnoxious self, saying I was some another poster (I believe ARK, actually) and demanding me to name the system I got my rank in. But it was fun calling out your alter ego's hypocrisy. 

I did slip up though. I replied to an email from your alter ego, and so he had my name. The rest is history. I got a three month suspension for my duplicity. 

Your alter ego badgered me in early February with daily email to live up to my commitment to provide a jpeg of my menjo. I decided in May, when I wanted to return, that I would have to prove my background, so I engaged to have a mod do it to validate that I am not a fraud, that I have a valid menjo from a recognized karate master who has devoted 39 years to the art. This master and his students have found great value in my approach to kata, using the sequential movements, and for my great effort to improve the state of kata, he skipped me a rank. You and others had a field day on MT, calling me soke doke and self-appointed "nth dan", just the kind of friendly stuff you are known for. Hence my explanation on the "high rank" thread. I knew the issue would eventually resurface so I decided to deal with it before someone like you had a chance to bring it up. 

Regarding the degree to which you and your friends considered me a fraud, please note that, as I told your alter ego via email in February, that my rank is also recognized outside my system. I taught at a gathering of 130 students a couple of weeks ago in a mainline Shorin Ryu system. The only other guest instructor was an Okinawan master with 55 years in the arts, and I am proud to have had double billing with this great man. I taught bunkai to Pinan Yondan, and demoed how the opening can be used against 10 different kinds of attacks, including a bo.

Now share for us. 

How is it that you have come to join this forum the day after your alter ego left, and how is it that you have decided to take up his battles. Why is it, out of all the threads and posts, did you seek out this very thread, and continue with your criticism of ARK and his good friend Mr. Stern. And then when I came to his defense, with an old attack on me. Could it be something about not being able to allow sleeping dogs to lie.

And how is it that you shared on the karate forum, a very odd piece of information, the same you did with me in September of last year in a private message, which is likely still archived for the mods to check. Both you and your alter ego told of Teruyuki Higa being arrested for the rape of an Oyata student when she was wearing a t-shirt with Oyata's picture. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8526
I find it very odd that an Okinawan would bring up such an unseemly fact. All the Okinawans I have ever met are models of decorum. This statement could only have been meant to trash Master Higa, something quite out of character for an Okinawan, and on so new to this board, but something so remarkably IN character for RyuShiKan.

What are the odds that both you, an Okinawan by birth, and Ryu, an ill-tempered American would have such identical interests on this forum, as well as knowledge, and that you would have joined just a day after he departed. Unless, of course, that you are indeed RyuShiKan, and that in this very post, you have accused me of doing the very thing you have done, used two IDs?

In a statement to me, above, you said "I read some posts here that found out you were lying and pretending to be two people at the same time on here so I am not surprised you wrote that post. You got caught and were given some punishment many people don't trust you because you lied to them."

Rick, what are the odds that you are not RyuShiKan? 

-Shuri-te, AKA Sensei Mike, AKA Mike Eschenbrenner


----------



## Rick Tsubota

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *Rick,
> 
> How about a deal, I will share some background about myself, if you will share some background about yourself. *



Looks like you are trying to change the subject.



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *
> Rick, what are the odds that you are not RyuShiKan?
> *



Not very good.
You know someone that has met me and trained with me at Ryushikan's dojo briefly. His name is Stafford. Don't you remember him? You said some very bad things about him on here.
I have been reading up on your posts from the past.
After reading them it seems many respectable people don't like you.


Speaking of coming around after Ryushikan left. Didn't you get back on here the day after he left?


I decided to take a look here after Ryushikan mentioned it. It says it's a friendly place but I don't get that feeling. 
It seems like a lot of childish people talking about silly things. Sorry it's just the feeling I get from reading some of the things here.


----------



## Rick Tsubota

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *
> 
> And how is it that you shared on the karate forum, a very odd piece of information, the same you did with me in September of last year in a private message, which is likely still archived for the mods to check. Both you and your alter ego told of Teruyuki Higa being arrested for the rape of an Oyata student when she was wearing a t-shirt with Oyata's picture. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8526
> I find it very odd that an Okinawan would bring up such an unseemly fact. All the Okinawans I have ever met are models of decorum. This statement could only have been meant to trash Master Higa, something quite out of character for an Okinawan, and on so new to this board, but something so remarkably IN character for RyuShiKan.
> *




You mentioned Higa's name in your post, and as I mentioned in my post The Japan Times ran an article on the case some years ago.


I think you are trying to take the attention away from your own lies on this website.

I wanted to have alook at this website after Ryushikan had mentioned it to me. I think he was correct in leaving.
Not too much useful information on here.


----------



## Disco

It's like a WWF tag team match. We thought this item had been washed, dried, folded and put in the closet. 

How fortutous that this is being reviewed in depth, a dead issue and some are trying to revive it. For what purpose is a mystery. Just out of curiosity, what perked the interest in this thread. Was it the Korean title, the name of the person who started the thread or as a favor to someone else?  

This has all the beginnings of another flame war starting up. Do we really need this again?


----------



## Shuri-te

Rick, or Ryu, or whoever you are:

For someone so new on MT, you really seem to have done quite a bit of research on what has been said on MT in the past. 

Regarding Stafford, you said, "You know someone that has met me and trained with me at Ryushikan's dojo briefly. His name is Stafford. Don't you remember him? You said some very bad things about him *on here*." (Emphasis added)

I would like to you provide a direct quote for what I said about Stafford on MT. Would you please do that for me. I want the DIRECT LINK. 

Now, I am going to assume that when you said "on here", you meant on MT. But you are an expert at weaseling out of your words. So I am giving you an out. You can tell us that "on here" really meant something else.  

If you choose to avoid answering this post, I will assume that you cannot locate it and therefore it must not exist. 

In that case, I would like you to explain just how you came to make this claim about me regarding my words about a wonderful young man named Stafford Smith who trained briefly in my dojo last fall.

I can't tell you how eagerly I await your reply.

Thank you so much for looking into this.


----------



## A.R.K.

Folks,

It would seem that either Mr. Tsubota is Ryu coming back under a new screen name to start more trouble or he is his friend and merely trolling.  

For a 'new' poster he sure does seem to know quite a bit about past posts :shrug: 

For a 'new' poster he sure has picked up Robert's way of doing things :shrug: 

Administration has been notified of this situation.  We all know whats going on.  Simply ignore Mr. Tsubota and his posts till they take the appropriate action against him.  He has already violated MT rules in regards to name calling i.e. cheat, liar etc.  He has already demonstrated he is uninterested in mature, friendly conversation and seeks only strife.  I would surmiss his days here on MT will be few....

Don't let him suck you in.

:asian:


----------



## Rick Tsubota

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *
> 
> Regarding Stafford, you said, "You know someone that has met me and trained with me at Ryushikan's dojo briefly. His name is Stafford. Don't you remember him? You said some very bad things about him on here." (Emphasis added)
> 
> I would like to you provide a direct quote for what I said about Stafford on MT. Would you please do that for me. I want the DIRECT LINK.
> 
> Now, I am going to assume that when you said "on here", you meant on MT. But you are an expert at weaseling out of your words. So I am giving you an out. You can tell us that "on here" really meant something else.
> 
> If you choose to avoid answering this post, I will assume that you cannot locate it and therefore it must not exist.
> 
> In that case, I would like you to explain just how you came to make this claim about me regarding my words about a wonderful young man named Stafford Smith who trained briefly in my dojo last fall.
> 
> I can't tell you how eagerly I await your reply.
> 
> *




Look at your own writing when you were pretending to be Sensei Mike before he was banned. 

I have also seen an email you sent to Ryushikan sometime ago. I think you were pretty mean describing Stafford since he had not trained in Ryushikan's dojo for about 5 years and was a low rank when he left Japan. 


How did I find this article you ask?
Ryushikan and I talk about training since we work out together. He told me I f I wanted to see how stupid the martial arts world in the US was like to go here.


----------



## Shuri-te

Rick/Ryu

So let me see if I get this straight. You have been on this board all of what, a week. And you make the following statement:

"You said some very bad things about him (Stafford) on here."  

Now a few hours later, you remember that you didn't read that  here, but that this was something that was an email some time ago, shown to you by Ryu, where I was "pretty mean regarding Stafford". (Your words.)

We are supposed to believe that you mistook an email you read some time ago (the post date was over 100 days ago), for something you read on this board in the past week?

Go figure. 

Ryu, keep pretending. You look ridiculous. Let's look at this whole Stafford Smith issue.

First let me point you to a post on MT on March 3rd made by your colleague Yiliquan1. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6271&perpage=15&pagenumber=6

Posted on Behalf of RyuShiKan 
Got this in email from him today...

This is from my 6thkyu student that hasn't trained for about 5 years. 

He met Mike last time he posted. 

"I did meet Mike Eischenbrenner and a class. He doesn't adhere to any style in particular but takes bits and pieces from here and there to suit his lessons. He does seem to borrow heavily from Taika's Oyata's method though."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you see any mention of me saying anything bad about Stafford. If I had, wouldn't you have called it out when you sent your email to Yiliquan1 to post on MT. 

Before I continue, I must dwell on your email for just a moment. 

It is fitting that, Stafford, a very bright young man, quite aptly described my approach to bunkai. Since there are few if any systems that follow my approach, I learn as much as I can from different systems so I can apply well developed fighting techniques to the movements in kata. I use the moniker Shuri-te, because I have trained in 10 or so arts that descend from Itosu, Kyan and Hohan Soken. When I find an idea in these arts, I apply it. But mostly I find nothing, and have to apply principles from Chi Na, JuJutsu, MT, FMA and other more fighting oriented systems. My bunkai are really my own, though, except for some that have been developed in part or completely by my students. 200+ combinations, all with takedowns from the sequential movements in kata. I shared a video with Arnisador that has over 80 from about 10 kata. I am planning to post on the web 25 or so just from the opening of Pinan Yondan as well as 10 bo defenses from Jutte.

What is really special about Yiliquan1's post is the discussion of Oyata. Considering that I have about 4 simple ideas in kata that come from my training with Senese and Geraldi, both senior students who studied with Oyata, and one movement directly from Oyata, in a seminar I attended with him, I consider Stafford's comments that I borrow heavily from his methods about the best praise I could earn. Oyata, until his death, will always be the king of bunkai, and you are well aware of what a great tribute it is to be mentioned in the same sentence. Thank you for sharing that with your friend Yiliquan1 so it could be posted on MT. Ryu, you know it just doesn't get any better.

Back to Ryu. Now there still may be some question about what I actually said in my email to you, Ryu, on 3/2, that led you to email Stafford, so he could reply in time for you to get it to Yiliquan1 for a 3/3 posting on MT. 

I asked you for the direct link so we could all read what was so bad that I had said about your student Stafford.  You weren't able to produce it so to answer your accusation, I will. When you get a chance, please help me understand how I was "pretty mean describing Stafford." (Your words.) You can skip the beginning. My remarks regarding Stafford come at the end. For you Ryu, this will be deja vu all over again.

(Note to the mods and to Kaith. Some of the statements I make in the attached email might be considered disparaging, and unfriendly. However, given the nature of this discussion, I thought it most appropriate to provide an unedited version of the email in question, however I apologize for any unfriendly language in the following text.) 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~. 

RyuShiKan, 

I still have plenty of questions for the forum and will have plenty of opportunity in the future, once my suspension is lifted, and you know what, my shoulder is actually feeling quite a bit better than expected, so I can leave you to diddle on your keyboard while I get back to "perfecting my character" practicing kata rather than keyboard sparring with you. 

You should try it. It works wonders. 

And although I had no intention of jousting with you on MartialTalk I did enjoy responding to your ridiculous accusations. Do you have any shame?  Nah. 

So you noticed the nice promotion I got. Thank you for your compliments. It was a great day. You know the guy I trained with for years moved away from upstate NY many years ago and retired from the art, leaving me stranded at 3rd dan. But I continued to train across every system I could find, as it enabled me to further refine my own art and develop an appreciation for how ideas from one system, say grappling, work hand in hand with movements in kata. 

In a seminar I attended last fall, I happen to have demoed a few of the bunkai I have developed during a break, and low and behold, a respected 7th dan in Shito Ryu that I have only met that day invites me to teach a seminar to his 30 black belts. I teach 25 combinations from Pinan Shodan, all with takedowns, all out of the sequential movements of the kata. (as well as one each from three other Pinans and 4 from Pinan Yondan.) 

By the end of the 5 hour he and his students began to fully appreciate something you have so willfully dismissed. You see you don't need to break up kata (abcdefg) and spell cab or fab. abc is a great movement by itself. So is bcd and def and so on. But you are too blinded by the "my master says" so prevalent in Newbie karateka, to see the obvious: that the masters actually designed kata to work, "as, is". Practice kata and those exact sequences can be used, and every time the guy winds up on the ground from a takedown. No adding, no jumbling, just kata. 

You might be surprised to see what happens when you turn a whole room of blackbelts onto this new insight into bunkai, and kata. They and their Shihan recognize you have personally developed a contribution to the art they practice. When you give someone who practices kata great insight into unexpected uses of their movements, it can be really a surprise. And here is the catch. It is the exact movements they practice in kata, not the Chinese menu approach, (this from the middle, add that from the beginning, finish with that from the end.)  

But the surprise was not just to them, as the Master made an offer hard to refuse. He wanted me to become a member of his dozen dojos and awarded me 5th dan Shihan in recognition for both my long study of the art, but more for my contribution. And of course I am schedule to teach again in the future. I can't decide whether to do bunkai from Bassai Dai or Seinchin, maybe Seipei. I like to have a balance between Shuri-te and Naha-te. 

And with this 5th dan from a very well known Shito Ryu 7th dan, (known from his many years of AAU leadership). I have credibility outside my own world of my dojo and students. And word has been passed. Now I am scheduled to teach my ideas to a large Shorin Ryu gathering in the summer. And masters from two other Shorin Ryu "styles" have also invited me to share my ideas with their students. Now it is only a matter of scheduling.  

Regarding the upcoming seminar, I will be happy to point out the web page to you when it gets posted. It will, of course, list me as 5th dan Shihan (that is master, not teacher). And guess what?, the 8th dan organizing it doesn't need to see my menjo. He has had a long relationship with the 7th dan who promoted me. And there are more seminars in the works. Who knows, you just might one day see a reference to me in some RyuTe context. You never know. :- ) 

On another subject, I had a wonderful gentleman come to my dojo recently. He had studied in your dojo, and wanted to learn in our kata-oriented, application-oriented dojo. 

And despite his being a person of wonderful character, his kata was pretty weak. It was most obvious that he hadn't done near the repetitions necessary even to really remember well even basic kata. But even more distressing, for Pinan Shodan, he had essentially no real useful bunkai. I guess all that time in your dojo didn't really teach him much about kata. Why am I not surprised. You might try increasing the reps to more than 1 per class. It works wonders for both self defense and character building.

One last thing, I wonder if you ever had a passing interest in Star Trek. Just in case you have, there is a memorable and fitting line I would like to quote from the second movie, where Kirk says: 

[RyuShi]Khan, we are at laughing at your superior intellect. 

LOL, 

Shuri-te.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Rick Tsubota _
> *Have him come to my dojo and teach seminar for free.
> *



Where is this?



> I decided to take a look here after Ryushikan mentioned it. It says it's a friendly place but I don't get that feeling.
> It seems like a lot of childish people talking about silly things. Sorry it's just the feeling I get from reading some of the things here.



Well, this is the "Bad Budo" section after all.


----------



## Cthulhu

Admin. Note

Keep the discussion polite and friendly.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-


----------



## Shuri-te

Cthulhu,

Fair's fair. I stepped over the line, and won't again. I have been responding to someone who has stated: 

"I think you are trying to take the attention away from your own lies on this website."

but of course points to no lies since there are none. 

Choosing anonymity on the web is viewed by many as self-protection, not deception, which I felt was a great strategy when posting on MT with Ryu and his "friendly" friends.  

I have said my bit to Rick. I have called his bluff, and I doubt I have anything further to add. If I do, I will keep it courteous.


----------



## Rick Tsubota

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *Cthulhu,
> 
> Fair's fair. I stepped over the line, and won't again. I have been responding to someone who has stated:
> 
> "I think you are trying to take the attention away from your own lies on this website."
> 
> but of course points to no lies since there are none.
> 
> Choosing anonymity on the web is viewed by many as self-protection, not deception, which I felt was a great strategy when posting on MT with Ryu and his "friendly" friends.
> 
> I have said my bit to Rick. I have called his bluff, and I doubt I have anything further to add. If I do, I will keep it courteous. *




Shurite, 

You lied and got caught.

You don't think I am who I say then talk to Stafford, he met me at Ryushikan's dojo in Roppongi.


----------



## Captain Harlock

Is this childishness still going on?  I was under the impression that the head child had left the building and we could get back to friendly discourse rather than wild witch hunts, vendettas and other such nonsense.

"Rick", do you have anything of any value to say on this forum, or are you only here to raise old dead issues?  I've read your last few posts and I see no content outside of bringing up old news.

I stopped bothering to read half the forums here because it seemed every thread for the last few months degenerated into a menjo check.  I only came back because a friend said the gang war was over.


----------



## Shuri-te

Rick,

Hmmm. No reply to my question regarding what in my email to Ryu were "pretty mean [words] regarding Stafford". You know Ryu had a reputation on this board for not answering questions when they didn't suit his purpose. I was on the receiving end of that twice. In both cases, he would ask other questions in response, and demand you answer his before he answered your's.

I have several questions for you.

On this board are eight thousand threads. You have posted to 8. Why did you choose those out of all 8,000. All of yours posts, except one, (your post on this thread) were made within hours of the prior post. (They are all recent threads.)

It has been my experience that when new people join, they go out and read what interests them, and even if the thread has been dormant for a week or two, or even a month, newbies will pick it up, as we would expect them to. 

But your picking of only recent posts to comment on has a hint of rejoining discussions one was well aware of. I will give you this compliment. Up until your post to this thread, all were made in a polite friendly style. I told one mod that you (Rick) were Dr Jekyll to Ryu's Hyde. 

How is it that after these 7 nice posts, you, a newbie, decided to  attack ARK and Mr. Stern. But my real question is why did you choose this particular style of attack. If you go back to all the criticisms of ARK, you can see a variety of approaches. I would say the norm is that there is often one or two unfriendly statements coupled with an obnoxious question (perhaps one that has been repeatedly answered). 

But Ryu has had a distinct style. He is virtually the only one who would launch a barrage of questions, and intersperse those with unfriendly statements. So let's look at 8th thread you posted on. (Remember, the first 7 were diplomatic and informative.)

You joined this thread with a post with 19 sentences. More than half, (10) were questions. Many of the other 9 were downright unfriendly. 

1. So you admit he has a background of being dishonest then. 

2. How can he be trusted since he has lied about his background before? 

3. You both seem good at making martial arts organizations on paper to give rank to people but you then say rank has no meaning

4. You are the guy that I have been reading about that always says rank has no meaning for you but you are a member of a group that recognizes it. 

5. Sounds like you are cheating people or just lying to them since the organization you belong exists for the purpose of doing what you don't believe in.

6. Why give rank if it has no meaning? 

7. Why even talk about it?

8. You seem to talk about it alot therefore I think you really care about it no matter what you write here. 

9. Why would you say one thing but do another?

10. After reading some of what you write on here it seems to be you way to do things. 

11. Based on what I have read I dont trust him or you. 

12. What gives them the right to recognize rank?

13. Why do they recognize rank? 

14. Which grandmasters?

15. Which leaders?

16. What does he give seminar in?

17. If thats the case great!

18. Have him come to my dojo and teach seminar for free.

19. When can he come?

If you choose only one question to answer (I have given you many) it is this. How can an Okinawan by birth come to this US based board as a newbie, and choose this one thread, out of 8,000, to launch this tirade against ARK and Mr. Stern. These people have done nothing against you, and nothing against your alter ego Ryu. Why is it that you chose to violate the founding principle of this forum (friendly discussion) when you decided to change from friendly contributor to grand inquisitor? 

Here's another question. Since you joined within hours of Kaith deleting your account, (on the 17th) but show no post until the 20th, I have been curious whether you voted on Kaith's survey for Ryu? (yourself?) If so, perhaps you can share with us which category you picked. Hero, or "Kaith is an idiot." I always wondered whether you (re)joined to artificially influence the outcome of the vote. (I can share my vote. No surprises here that I am in the 40% block for zero.)

I would imagine that whatever you say can be checked by the mgmt for verification. 

Here is a hypothetical question for Kaith. I wonder what other IDs were created on the 16th through the 18th, prior to the survey being shut down, and which of these might have voted, never to be used again. And of these, how did they vote?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Question "Is RT also RR"? 

Answer: At this moment, I can not say with any certainty one way or the other.  All I can say is, they are both in Japan.


Question "Is RSK violating any rules if in fact he is RT?"

Answer: No, other than the 'real name' rule.


Questions: "Survey information", "Votes" 

Answer: We are not at liberty to disclose that information. Considering that the majority was not solidly behind RSK (being either in the middle or negative), it it a moot point.  As to who voted me an idiot, it was again, a moot point.


Question: "Verification of Identity, location, individuality".

Answer: I am investigating.  Short of a court supena of the ISP's records, we can not be 100% certain.  This will not happen for many reasons, the bigest being its pretty stupid to get a court order over a few PITA posts.  We do not have a reliable means of ensuring honesty, short of switching to a paid by credit card membership (which required ID info) which we will not do.  I will be posting the results within 24 hours of my investigation.  I am using the means we do have to research it.  No, I won't be posting all of what we do to check.



Concerning dead topics, old news, doing others business, etc. - Folks, if you aint got something nice to say, don't say it.  I've got enough headaches at the moment.  I'm sure most of us also have better things to do.


Rick, at this time, you are welcome to stay, but it would be apreciated if you would work in a positive manner here.

Dave, Mike, etc - We've heard your concerns and are looking into them.  The last thing we want on here is a reverse inquisition going on.

Keep it polite, and friendly...or at least growl quieter. 

Thank you,


----------



## jdmills

It seems all of us Kenpo guys here should be a little more understanding regarding a person's mistakes.  (remember, this thread was originally concerning "Grandmaster" Stern's conviction for illegal use of a CMH).  In 1974, "James" Masayoshi Mitose was tried and convicted of extortion and murder. He was sentenced to Folsom prison, where he died on March 27, 1981.  These are the American Kenpo roots from which we all came.  I don't like it either but it is an acknowleged fact.  It sure doesn't mean that Kenpo stinks or that Edmund K. Parker was somehow illegitimate.


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## A.R.K.

Bob,

No problems here    It would seem there are one of two scenerios here.  Either Mr. Tsubota is indeed who he claims to be, in which case he has decided to take up Robert's ways which is sad or he is Robert using an alias to restart problems which is pathetic.  

However, either way a positive can come out of it.  If Rick is really Rick [a separate person] and decides to contribute in a positive way and leaves hostilities at the door...everyone wins.  If Rick is really Robert [the same person] but decides to turn a new leaf [which is yet to happen] and begins to post in a friendly manner...everyone wins.  

If either is in the negative then I fully support whatever action if any that admin decides to take.  Either way, I'm enjoying the direction the board has taken and enjoy learning and contributing.  

My hats off to you and the other Admins for the work you put into this board.  It shows.

:asian:


----------



## Shuri-te

Kaith,
Thank you for your explanations. I know that tracing the source with an ISP wasn't really feasible. And therefore there may never be certainty whether any poster A is really poster B. And without that, the poster is presumed innocent. 

As I noted in one of my posts, Rick participated in a friendly manner on his first 7 threads. (Many of those pleasant exchanges were with me.) He then came to this thread, and I doubt any on the management team would call his post to ARK friendly. I came to ARK's defense and the rest is history. 

If you look at the threads Rick has participated on, there is a seven-to-one ratio of friendliness to unfriendliness. In retrospect, all things considered regarding his alleged background, that is really not all that bad. Hopefully he will want to keep his contribution ratio somewhere in that range, and if so, just might be a positive force on MT. 

We'll see.

Thanks for your input.


----------



## A.R.K.

Shuri Te

I appreciate you stepping up to bat for me in my abscense  

It's fairly obvious what the situation is.  But I'm all for giving anyone the benefit of the doubt.  And if it is Robert posting under another name, well if he takes this opportunity to redeem himself, I'm all for giving him the fair opportunity.  

We all make mistakes.  We all make poor choices occasionally.  And we all have had instances which we would like to take back or do over.  I believe a true warrior is suppose to be humble and forgiving.  Robert had no justifiable cause to take the route he choose with anyone, Rick certainly had no justifiable cause to post in the manner he did in this thread.  But forgiveness is extended to him/them now.  What he/they do from here will mark them as to their character and intent on this board.   We shall soon see.

Thank you again.

:asian:


----------



## Shuri-te

ARK,

Your generous words of forgiveness are an inspiration to us all.

Let's all move on and endeavor to make positive contributions to MT. Then we all gain. As Captain Harlock has reminded us:

"I stopped bothering to read half the forums here because it seemed every thread for the last few months degenerated into a menjo check. I only came back because a friend said the gang war was over."

It is up to all of us to resist letting MT slide once again into a mudslinging site, because if we do, we all  lose.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

This particular thread has wandered all over the place.  

Don Roley started this about Jack Stern.  The conclusion is that he did violate the law, and was found guilty.  The applicable laws were posted.  Don Roley and Robert Carver put out a good bulk of information on the original topic.  It then got into the realm of personal opinion about CNN, who said what, and I think the existence of the Easter Bunny.  As we wander on, old questions on the reputations of certain members were yet again dredged up and rehashed by several people.  We then get into the question on if someone really exists.  Pretty far journey wouldnt you all say?  Another interesting point is that certain individuals involved had very little respect for those with differing opinions.  Sarcasm literally dripped off of several posts.  Suffice to say, this isnt what this forum is for.  

I'll be posting my conclusion shortly.


----------



## Disco

You may want to give it a little more time. I have it on good authority that both ABC and NBC may be interested for a new series or at the least a made for TV movie. The only problem is that Ozzie Osborne is bidding for the rights and he wants the lead part. I wonder who he will play?......


----------



## Bob Hubbard

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *You may want to give it a little more time. I have it on good authority that both ABC and NBC may be interested for a new series or at the least a made for TV movie. The only problem is that Ozzie Osborne is bidding for the rights and he wants the lead part. I wonder who he will play?...... *



**Blink**

**Blink**

:rofl:


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I did alot of reading, searching, checking of IP addresses, and other information.  The following is the official statement
=====
When someone new shows up, and picks up arguments that were usually associated with a past controversial figure, it is to be expected that some questions will be raised.

A past example of this is where Platinum Angel picked up where Jonathan Napalm left off.  In this case, evidence pinpointed that both individuals were using the same computer to visit us, even though a surface look indicated they were 2000 miles apart.

In the case of the RSK/RT question, it is a little harder to determine.

Here are the facts as Ive seen them:

Both individuals are in Japan.
Both train together.
Both have seen certain information that was known to RSK.
Both have accessed MT from the same local ISP. 
Both have had a couple of IP addresses overlap.  There are also Ips that are unique. In the case noted above, there were minimal unique qualifiers.
Both may- have used the same PC to access MT, but given the samples proves nothing.  For example, many of my Ips match Renegades.  There are over 50 individuals on this forum alone who will vouch that we are not the same person.

I have re-read Mr. Tsubotas posts here, and run them thru a limited analysis. The samples indicate a few minor similarities, however the bulk of the text indicates 2 different people. (Differences in style, readability and approximate "grade" level of the writing style)

In addition, several individuals with no interest in the issue have vouched that there are in fact 2 people.

While there is no way for me to be 100% certain without a trip to Japan and personally meeting with both individuals, it is my conclusion that Rick is not Robert, and Robert is not Rick.

I would like to make a short summary of the 22 posts I have seen of Ricks:
The posts in the Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association thread while having some of the same focus as RSKs, did not have the same "feeling".  Points were made that are not refutable, and were within the limits set for the Bad Budo forum.  The negative is that many were a rehash of old news.

The rest of his posts were of a helpful and beneficial nature, without the feel of RSKs posts.

In conclusion, based on my research, and my gut feeling on this, I have to conclude that they *are not* the same individual.  In addition, I have found much useful information in Mr. Tsubotas limited number of posts and hope he continues to visit and help us improve.

A side note: Many are happy that the fraud busters are gone. I for one am not.  Without questions, anyone can claim anything. Questions make you think, and without thinking, we are nothing. My issue was in how things were done, not that they were done. Tactics that one side used and were condemned for are used by the other side who then pats themselves on the back and says how good they are.  Ill be blunt  I have a problem with dual standards and rewritten histories.  If you use the tools of that which you hate, how are you any better?  Gang warfare on MartialTalk is not part of our mission statement, and I am seriously considering blanket booting of groups that collectively disrupt the smooth operation of this forum. My goal for this site is to be both friendly -and- informative. 

I intend to see those goals met.


----------



## A.R.K.

I would suggest that this issue has been talked out about as much as it can be.  If anyone has any further questions for me specifically my email is readily available.

:asian:


----------



## Rick Tsubota

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *In conclusion, based on my research, and my gut feeling on this, I have to conclude that they are not the same individual.  In addition, I have found much useful information in Mr. Tsubotas limited number of posts and hope he continues to visit and help us improve.
> *




Maybe some people can say they are sorry for saying I am RSK.


----------



## A.R.K.

Well, I for one would like to welcome you here to MT.  I have not read all of your contributions yet, but I found most to be very informative.  I look forward to future conversations with you on points of mutual interest.

Also I will admit that I was very cautious based on a few of your posts.  I feel that caution was justifible considering current events that have only briefly pasted.  You have my apology and again my welcome.

:asian:


----------



## Shuri-te

Rick,

Great to have you here!!


----------



## DAC..florida

O.K.

Maybe Mr. Stern made a mistake, who has'nt done something that they are less than proud of. My point is who are we to point the finger or judge anyone! If you feel that this man is someone whom you do not wish to ascosiate with that is your choice.
:asian:


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## Shuri-te

DAC,

Perhaps you might reconsider resurrecting this thread. So many feel it is time to move on. This horse is beaten, dead, died, rotted, turned to dust, scattered to four corners of the world. 

So have some heart here. Does MT really need another food fight and another locked thread. Let's just recognize that any further discussion of Mr. Stern on MT is going to be counterproductive. 

You recently created a thread called "How come all the good threads get locked." It resulted in yet another free-for-all, something no one gained from, and finally had to be locked, the fourth in a very short period. 

DAC, in all due respect, if I were you, I would take Kaith's final words on that thread seriously.

"the NEXT! person to dig up something from here, is gone."


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## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *DAC,
> 
> Perhaps you might reconsider resurrecting this thread. So many feel it is time to move on. This horse is beaten, dead, died, rotted, turned to dust, scattered to four corners of the world.
> 
> So have some heart here. Does MT really need another food fight and another locked thread. Let's just recognize that any further discussion of Mr. Stern on MT is going to be counterproductive.
> 
> You recently created a thread called "How come all the good threads get locked." It resulted in yet another free-for-all, something no one gained from, and finally had to be locked, the fourth in a very short period.
> 
> DAC, in all due respect, if I were you, I would take Kaith's final words on that thread seriously.
> 
> "the NEXT! person to dig up something from here, is gone." *




Maybe you misunderstood my meaning here I thouhgt that this thread has gotton off topic I am not trying to start or restart anything I never personaly attacked anyone in my above post.


I know that this issue has been discussed and that there have been good points on both sides all I'm trying to say is Mr. Stern made a mistake and even he has admitted that but I also feel that he has paid his debt to the public and it should'nt follow him forever, everyone of us have some kind of a past even if its when we were juveniles we have all done wrong. I guess my point is that I feel he is a good man with a great organization and no-one  can see past his mistakes to see this, I hope that god is more forgiving than man or we will all burn in hell.
:asian:


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## arnisador

I emphasize that the warning given earlier will be strongly enforced. Further beating of the dead horses will result in suspensions.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I emphasize that the warning given earlier will be strongly enforced. Further beating of the dead horses will result in suspensions.
> 
> -Arnisador
> -MT Admin- *




Arnisador,

I beleive everyone has taken my post on this thread the wrong way, I was not trying to beat a dead horse but I do see your point and maybe posting here was a mistake, so I will stop posting on this topic.
:asian:


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## A.R.K.

All I can add further is that the man is 75 and still going strong and in high demand.  He just got back from a seminar out of state.  I talked to the hosts/participants and everyone was very impressed and well pleased.

I know he is hoping to make trips to both the Middle East as well as Asia if his health permits.  

:asian:


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## phlux

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *
> 
> CNN is now liberal?  CNN gives the story for the American people.  They give it how it is, and I say they're almost on par with BBC....  *



Disclaimer: I have no I dea who Mr. Stern is, nor do I have any opinion on the matter.

However, the above statement is the worst argument I ahve ever heard. CNN is one of the most slanted propoganda spouting news sources there is. Anyone who would claim that CNN is the voice of the American people - or that they even say anything remotely how it is, is obviously one of the most mis-informed individuals in this sad sad reality we now find ourselves in. (P.S. Its not what CNN does say - its what they *dont* tell you thats important - all the rest is filler distraction material)

People, please - use your head, and do not listen to anything you see on TV.


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## Rick Tsubota

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *All I can add further is that the man is 75 and still going strong and in high demand.  He just got back from a seminar out of state.  I talked to the hosts/participants and everyone was very impressed and well pleased.
> 
> I know he is hoping to make trips to both the Middle East as well as Asia if his health permits.
> 
> :asian: *




Good to hear.
When can he come to my dojo?
Does he need money or is he going to do for free?


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## Shuri-te

ARK,

Please take this advice with all the sincerity with which I give it. This issue is closed. 

You have made your case on Mr. Stern. Some, like you and myself, recognize that a person's years in the martial arts, technical skills, teaching skills and concern for the development of his students, is what makes the teacher. Others, having never met a man, feel that they are well able to better judge a teacher by other criteria, such as whether he has created his own organization, or has been accused or convicted of some crime, regardless of the severity of it. (Look out jaywalkers!!!)  

This forum is open to the opinions of both sides and both have made their points, repeatedly.

Do not feel for a moment that you can get the last word here on Mr. Stern. The nature of this board allows an effortless, instanteous reply,  to everything you will say. History shows, these posts can be laden with slurs and sarcasm, and history, especially on this board has a seemingly intractable way of repeating itself. (This is deja vu all over again.) 

We all know Mr. Stern is your friend. Rest assured that at least some of us believe that your some 30 years in the arts, and first hand experience with Mr. Stern, just might make you a bit better judge of his value as a teacher. But others, who have never met the man, nor even met someone who has trained with him, are likley to remain motivated to comment on him. 

So please put this behind you. It's time to move on.


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## jdmills

> _Originally posted by phlux _
> *Disclaimer: I have no I dea who Mr. Stern is, nor do I have any opinion on the matter.
> 
> However, the above statement is the worst argument I ahve ever heard. CNN is one of the most slanted propoganda spouting news sources there is. Anyone who would claim that CNN is the voice of the American people - or that they even say anything remotely how it is, is obviously one of the most mis-informed individuals in this sad sad reality we now find ourselves in. (P.S. Its not what CNN does say - its what they *dont* tell you thats important - all the rest is filler distraction material)
> 
> People, please - use your head, and do not listen to anything you see on TV. *



CNN is an incredible resource and I would bbe willing to bet that there is a CNN feed into every US intelligence agency around the world.  They provide real-time, on the ground information faster than anyone.

That being said, CNN is owned by Turner Broadcasting Systems, which is controlled by Ted Turner, who was married to . . . Jane Fonda.  

Doesn't sound conservative to me.


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## A.R.K.

Shuri Te,

I understand your point and you are correct.  I just noticed a few new posts in this thread and thought I would add some info from a recent phone call.  

Phlux,

I agree whole heartedly about CNN.  

Jdmills,



> That being said, CNN is owned by Turner Broadcasting Systems, which is controlled by Ted Turner, who was married to . . . Jane Fonda.



:rofl: 

That was good


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## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *ARK,
> 
> Please take this advice with all the sincerity with which I give it. This issue is closed.
> 
> You have made your case on Mr. Stern. Some, like you and myself, recognize that a person's years in the martial arts, technical skills, teaching skills and concern for the development of his students, is what makes the teacher. Others, having never met a man, feel that they are well able to better judge a teacher by other criteria, such as whether he has created his own organization, or has been accused or convicted of some crime, regardless of the severity of it. (Look out jaywalkers!!!)
> 
> This forum is open to the opinions of both sides and both have made their points, repeatedly.
> 
> Do not feel for a moment that you can get the last word here on Mr. Stern. The nature of this board allows an effortless, instanteous reply,  to everything you will say. History shows, these posts can be laden with slurs and sarcasm, and history, especially on this board has a seemingly intractable way of repeating itself. (This is deja vu all over again.)
> 
> We all know Mr. Stern is your friend. Rest assured that at least some of us believe that your some 30 years in the arts, and first hand experience with Mr. Stern, just might make you a bit better judge of his value as a teacher. But others, who have never met the man, nor even met someone who has trained with him, are likley to remain motivated to comment on him.
> 
> So please put this behind you. It's time to move on. *




I couldnt have said it better myself.:asian:


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## Kodanjaclay

Mr. Stern is not affiliated with any jikwan in Korea. (The term hombu is not used in Korean Mudo). Mr Stern is a deceiver, and is not certified by any Korean agency. Please do not take my word for it. I can help you make arrangements to visit. Go visit the KHF, the government body for Hapkido)

Mr. Stern was found guilty of WEARING the CMH illegally. It is not a crime to be in possession of the award, or else estates of former winners would be felons. Use some common sense in this matter.

I myself told Mr. Stern he was a fake, and asked why he was harming the community. Do you think that someone he rips off is going to have anything good to say about martial arts? Why do you think that people are trying to have martial arts regulated?


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## A.R.K.

Well, this was almost a dead issue  

Mr.Stern is affiliated with Dong Gu's school in Korea.

I think the main reason some people may want the arts regulated is money and power.

As stated, he has rank and affiliation.  Even his biggest attacker begrudingly admitted this to me.  KYHA doens't issue rank, it is a clubhouse for MA's to fellowship, network, cross-train or have idea exchange.  There is nothing wrong with this and KYHA specifically states 'fraternalism'.

Everyone has committed a crime once or more in their lives.  Some get caught, some don't.  Doesn't necessarily relflect on their MA's ability.  It is folly to hold a 2nd degree misd from a decade ago against the man when he has made full restitution.  

Yada yada yada.  It's all been said before.  He has rank, he has affiliation, he has ability, he founded a fraternal organization.  Nuff said.

:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard

*Admin Note*

At this time, the administration of this forum is discussing part of this issue.

In the duration, please refrain from the discussion of A.R.K.

Thank you


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## Bob Hubbard

*Admin Note:*

This is an update. 
ARK (David Schultz) is no longer a member here. Those wishing to continue the debate with him will please take it to those forums he does currently visit.

We strongly request that our members refrain from reigniting these issues, as well as bringing up former members who are no longer here to answer for themselves.

This thread is now locked.

Thank you.


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