# Ba Gua and Wing Chun



## Nobody Important (Feb 1, 2017)

This is a long shot, as it is not a well known topic, but I'd thought I'd ask just in case anyone has ever heard about it.

There is an obscure hypothesis concerning a relationship between Wing Chun and Bagua Zhang. The primary point of interest is an obscure art known as Se Ying Diu Sau (Snake Form Artful/Mongoose Hands) it is an art that was passed on to a selected few by Leung Tien Chiu, founder of modern Fut Gar. The art was taught to him by his uncle Leung Sil Jung, and is said to have roots in proto-Choy Gar Kuen. It is a very secretive style that is still being taught by Leung Tien Chiu's nephew or grandson. I have seen bits of it and do have some further information which I will post later.

Anyways there is supposedly a Bagua connection of some sort and there are stories about this snake system being known by Leung Bok Chou prior to him leaving the Choy family to study Wing Chun under his wife & father in law, Yim Wing Chun & Yim Si.

As mentioned I have seen parts of the system, as I also studied Choy Gar under the Wong family of Toisan, who hired Leung Tien Chiu as a boxing coach. The system of Se Ying Diu Sau looks like a weird blend of Bagua Zhang & Wing Chun. Just wondering if by chance anyone else has ever heard of it. Elements of it can be seen in Leung's Fut Gar, as he incorporated some of it in its development, though it is an old & separate method. I know of no verified videos of this snake art.


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## Eric_H (Feb 1, 2017)

I've studied two families of Bagua, and two families worth of wing chun. I'm reminded of ye old Mainers' expression "You can't get there from here, best go back the way you came."

That said, I'd like to see more of whatever this art is.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 1, 2017)

Eric_H said:


> I've studied two families of Bagua, and two families worth of wing chun. I'm reminded of ye old Mainers' expression "You can't get there from here, best go back the way you came."
> 
> That said, I'd like to see more of whatever this art is.


It's not really a combination of Wing Chun & Bagua, it's more of the term used to describe this snake method which is said to be the influence of snake in Wing Chun, who's origins are based on proto - Choy Gar, with Bagua influence (now I don't know if it's Bagua Zhang as some claim or just Bagua theory). I remember once seeing a website that supposedly did this method, claiming it's origins from India. I don't think it was legitimate, they had no video, just stills. But the history was not the same as I have, mine states southern China, not India. I wish I knew more myself, but information is hard to come by and the current gate keeper is very tight lipped. I have a very small amount on the system I will post soon, including the name of the lineage head once I scrounge up my notes.


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## ob1 (Feb 2, 2017)

Scattered around I have read different accounts stating that Leung Bok Cho orignially learnt Cho Gar and subsequently learnt Wing Chun. Think this a worthwhile line of research for some one to follow through on. The scattered stories are consistent with this Leung Bok Cho likely to be the same person. Any further information would be of interes

www.southern5.com/Choy.html    From memory there is a bit here about this
A Lesson in Patience    Also cho gar and LBC mentioned in here. The stories are said to eventuate from the China Yuen Kay San line.

Anyway hope this is of interest


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## ShortBridge (Feb 2, 2017)

I have heard this before, but don't have a basis for opinion on it.


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## Joevan Lim Elizaga (Feb 2, 2017)

Does anybody know where can i find wing chun school in cdo philippines?


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## Joevan Lim Elizaga (Feb 2, 2017)

I study wing chun by myself only by watching videos


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## wckf92 (Feb 2, 2017)

I would also like to hear more , since I've seen some 'genetic markers' of this (I think)


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## KPM (Feb 2, 2017)

Joevan Lim Elizaga said:


> Does anybody know where can i find wing chun school in cdo philippines?



You need to make your question a separate post of its own rather than putting it within someone else's thread.  You are more likely to get a response that way.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2017)

Joevan Lim Elizaga said:


> I study wing chun by myself only by watching videos


I'm not entirely certain what that has to do with the discussion at hand.


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## wingchun100 (Feb 2, 2017)

Man, I wish I knew enough about Ba Gua to make a worthwhile comment. LOL

I will say that I am always intrigued to see how arts are tied together, how one might have sprung from the other.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> This is a long shot, as it is not a well known topic, but I'd thought I'd ask just in case anyone has ever heard about it.
> 
> There is an obscure hypothesis concerning a relationship between Wing Chun and Bagua Zhang. The primary point of interest is an obscure art known as Se Ying Diu Sau (Snake Form Artful/Mongoose Hands) it is an art that was passed on to a selected few by Leung Tien Chiu, founder of modern Fut Gar. The art was taught to him by his uncle Leung Sil Jung, and is said to have roots in proto-Choy Gar Kuen. It is a very secretive style that is still being taught by Leung Tien Chiu's nephew or grandson. I have seen bits of it and do have some further information which I will post later.
> 
> ...



I have my doubts here of a Bagua connection if this was supposed to come from Leung Bok Chao (1771–1859?) since it sounds like he knew the snake system prior to his leaving the Choy family. The reason is the years do not line up. The founder of Baguazhang is Dong Haichuan (1797 or 1813 – 1882) Also it is fairly well known who Dong Haichuan's students were. So if it was not learned from Dong Haichuan then it would have had to come from one of his students and Leung Bok Chao is already 26 to 42 years older than Dong Haichuan. Therefore he would be considerably older than any of Dong's students


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## KPM (Feb 2, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Man, I wish I knew enough about Ba Gua to make a worthwhile comment. LOL
> 
> I will say that I am always intrigued to see how arts are tied together, how one might have sprung from the other.



I have a good friend that is VERY good at Ba Gua.  It never seemed to have much in common with Wing Chun to me.


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## wingchun100 (Feb 2, 2017)

KPM said:


> I have a good friend that is VERY good at Ba Gua.  It never seemed to have much in common with Wing Chun to me.


 
Yeah, I would not know because the only time I saw anyone do Ba Gua was at this school that was more like Wushu, with everything done with more flash and acrobatic style. I have never gotten a good impression of what it is like.


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## geezer (Feb 2, 2017)

I never thought of WC as seeming anything like Ba Gua. I have seen some functional parallels with Hsing-I, but Ba Gua? Not really.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Yeah, I would not know because the only time I saw anyone do Ba Gua was at this school that was more like Wushu, with everything done with more flash and acrobatic style. I have never gotten a good impression of what it is like.



There are others to look for, but look for videos of He Jinbao, Yin Style Baguazhang or Di Guoyong, Liang Style Baguazhang or Liu Jing Ru, Cheng Style Baguazhang


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## wingchun100 (Feb 2, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> There are others to look for, but look for videos of He Jinbao, Yin Style Baguazhang or Di Guoyong, Liang Style Baguazhang or Liu Jing Ru, Cheng Style Baguazhang


 
I will definitely check those out!


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## yak sao (Feb 2, 2017)

geezer said:


> I never thought of WC as seeming anything like Ba Gua. I have seen some functional parallels with Hsing-I, but Ba Gua? Not really.



I agree with your Hsing I comnent but I tend to see a bit of  pa kwa within some of the dummy footwork and the tri podal dummy work.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 2, 2017)

Just so people aren't getting the wrong impression, I'll repeat.

"It's not really a combination of Wing Chun & Bagua, it's more of the term used to describe this snake method which is said to be the influence of snake in Wing Chun, who's origins are based on proto - Choy Gar, with Bagua influence (now I don't know if it's Bagua Zhang as some claim or just Bagua theory)".


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Just so people aren't getting the wrong impression, I'll repeat.
> 
> "It's not really a combination of Wing Chun & Bagua, it's more of the term used to describe this snake method which is said to be the influence of snake in Wing Chun, who's origins are based on proto - Choy Gar, with Bagua influence (now I don't know if it's Bagua Zhang as some claim or just Bagua theory)".



What years are we talking about?

Is there a video of this someplace?


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## Nobody Important (Feb 2, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> What years are we talking about?
> 
> Is there a video of this someplace?


Leung Tien Chiu was born in 1878 & died in 1972. He was taught Se Ying Diu Sau (Snake Form Artful/Mongoose Hands) by Leung Sil Jong. There is no verified video of this art I am aware of. I would guesstimate that Leung Sil Jong was born in 1820s. It is speculation as to who he learned under, it is presumed that he learned this method from, whom would later be considered, the founder of Choy Gar. It is said to come from the Choy family & that the original name is Se Ying Diu Sau the forerunner of Choy family boxing. Leung Bok Chou is said to have been a student of the Choy family as well, prior to learning Wing Chun. Time frames fit.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Leung Tien Chiu was born in 1878 & died in 1972. He was taught Se Ying Diu Sau (Snake Form Artful/Mongoose Hands) by Leung Sil Jong. There is no verified video of this art I am aware of. I would guesstimate that Leung Sil Jong was born in 1820s. It is speculation as to who he learned under, it is presumed that he learned this method from, whom would later be considered, the founder of Choy Gar. It is said to come from the Choy family & that the original name is Se Ying Diu Sau the forerunner of Choy family boxing. Leung Bok Chou is said to have been a student of the Choy family as well, prior to learning Wing Chun. Time frames fit.



This article says Leung Sil Jong was a Shaolin Monk. Of course it is only one article with no verification. But if he was a Monk from Shaolin, they are big on animal forms there. Could be where the snake comes from and possibly has no link at all to Baguazhang


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## oaktree (Feb 2, 2017)

My opinion of wing chun it's about controlling the center line. Or the principle the shortest distance is a straight line.

Baguazhang is not about engaging on the center line but moving around the center line or the center line is always in rotation. 

For example punching straight lead I want to move off the center line and attack at your blind spot at an angle, I want to pivot behind you but the main principle is not keeping the engagement in that center line. Can we as Baguazhang practitioners go straight on the center line yes, and liang first palm does a great example of going straight in on the center line but the palm changes is deceptive and changes from left lead straight to a hidden right under the elbow at 45 degree.

I teach this as a hidden knife after the person goes to dodge my lead punch .


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## Nobody Important (Feb 2, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> This article says Leung Sil Jong was a Shaolin Monk. Of course it is only one article with no verification. But if he was a Monk from Shaolin, they are big on animal forms there. Could be where the snake comes from and possibly has no link at all to Baguazhang


That is a popular tale, but not true. Leung Sil Jong was a custodian of Law Ding village, it is said he learned from a Siu Lam monk. In this reference "monk" is a loose term. It is suspected Leung Sil Jong studied under Choy Gau Yee, patriarch of Choy Gar and supposed student of Siu Lam.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 2, 2017)

This also has to be viewed from a mainland Wing Chun perspective & and not from a Yip Man Wing Chun perspective. They are two very different approaches. Mainland Wing Chun has much more in common with Siu Lam arts than Yip Man. Also this possible connection, IMO, has more to do with footwork than palms and arms. Many southern CMA's use Bagua, this doesn't necessarily mean Bagua Zhang.


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## oaktree (Feb 2, 2017)

I would be interested to know what do you regard using Bagua in South part in reference to? I know fu style Baguazhang is primarily in Guangzhou area.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 2, 2017)

oaktree said:


> I would be interested to know what do you regard using Bagua in South part in reference to? I know fu style Baguazhang is primarily in Guangzhou area.


Several southern arts use Bagua theory. Some refer to it as stepping, handwork etc. Arts like Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, Tibetan White Crane, Fut Gar etc. No relation necessarily to Bagua Zhang of the north. Western CMA's also use Bagua theory, Lung Ta of Tibet even uses the terms muddy hand & muddy feet while circle walking, but it's not the same as Bagua Zhang from Dong Hai Chuan.


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## oaktree (Feb 2, 2017)

Do they use the term Bagua? 
I would think there would be similarities in styles but what I am curious is are they using same theory and using same terminology.
I guess if from South they would use Cantonese so I am interested to hear about it more.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 2, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Do they use the term Bagua?
> I would think there would be similarities in styles but what I am curious is are they using same theory and using same terminology.
> I guess if from South they would use Cantonese so I am interested to hear about it more.


Yes same term but in Cantonese, Baat Gwa. I do not know Bagua Zhang so cannot speak to that. Southern Bagua methods vary, typically instead of walking a circle from outside parimeter and moving in, they are the center and move out in one of the 8 directions. Palm techniques in southern CMA are usually referred to as butterfly palms, flying crane hands, fish hands, devil hands, Buddha palms etc. Southern Bagua methods are nearly opposite of northern, from my limited understanding, inside out instead of outside in. It's about the motherline and centerline. Southern Bagua stepping encompasses plum blossom aka: 5 elements, 4 points & 8 directions. Much of this varies from system to system same as the hands, consistency and naming convention don't necessarily go hand in hand.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 2, 2017)

Some Choy Lay Fut Bagua & Buddha Palm


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## Nobody Important (Feb 2, 2017)

This is Siu Lam Kung Fu from Wong Tim Yuen a student of Leung Tien Chiu. These early Fut Gar sets contain some of the Se Ying Diu Sau material mixed in.


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## oaktree (Feb 2, 2017)

What makes those videos Bagua? Do they follow the Bagua and I Ching theory?
They look nothing like any family style of Baguazhang there is no internal energy it's all external.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 2, 2017)

oaktree said:


> What makes those videos Bagua? Do they follow the Bagua and I Ching theory?
> They look nothing like any family style of Baguazhang there is no internal energy it's all external.


I said it isn't the same as Northern Bagua Zhang. You can't compare an apple to a pineapple or a pine cone to a pineapple and expect it to be what you're familiar with. Southern Bagua starts at a central point and works outwards. 

It's always been relayed to me that Bagua has a close association with the snake and Taiji the crane. These do not necessarily mean the arts that have come to be named after Bagua & Taiji, but the theory itself. I have yet to see any two versions of Bagua, Taiji or Wu Xing theory be explained and interpreted the same.

I'm not a Choy Lay Fut practitioner so I won't comment on any similarities or not. I only posted them for reference of southern Bagua and palm methods.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2017)

oaktree said:


> What makes those videos Bagua? Do they follow the Bagua and I Ching theory?
> They look nothing like any family style of Baguazhang there is no internal energy it's all external.



It is likely based on this







Not this






And likely has as much to do with Baguazhang (which is a Northern style, and any versions of Baguazhang done in the south all come from this origin,.) as Taiji Mantis has to do with Taijiquan


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> I said it isn't the same as Northern Bagua Zhang. You can't compare an apple to a pineapple or a pine cone to a pineapple and expect it to be what you're familiar with. Southern Bagua starts at a central point and works outwards.
> 
> It's always been relayed to me that Bagua has a close association with the snake and Taiji the crane. These do not necessarily mean the arts that have come to be named after Bagua & Taiji, but the theory itself. I have yet to see any two versions of Bagua, Taiji or Wu Xing theory be explained and interpreted the same.
> 
> I'm not a Choy Lay Fut practitioner so I won't comment on any similarities or not. I only posted them for reference of southern Bagua and palm methods.



So to clarify you are saying it is based on 'The Bagua' not based on 'Baguazhang'


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## Nobody Important (Feb 2, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> So to clarify you are saying it is based on 'The Bagua' not based on 'Baguazhang'


Yes, what's probably causing confusion for some is that I made reference to this snake system having some connection to Bagua, but didn't know if it was bagua Zhang or just Bagua. So I've spoken to both, but when I talk of southern Bagua it is to the theory not the northern system. As I stated earlier it is most likely in reference to a stepping method unrelated to the northern art. It is confusing because of like terms,  completely unrelated and used differently though.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 2, 2017)

Another Leung Tien Chiu Fut Gar branch, this video presents a better example of the Se Ying Diu Sau elements of Fut Gar. Much more Bagua and snake representation.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 2, 2017)

This form is as close as I could find as to what the Se Ying Diu Sau style looks like as best I can remember.






Lots of Wing Chun like stuff in here.


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## Juany118 (Feb 2, 2017)

oaktree said:


> My opinion of wing chun it's about controlling the center line. Or the principle the shortest distance is a straight line.
> 
> Baguazhang is not about engaging on the center line but moving around the center line or the center line is always in rotation.
> 
> For example punching straight lead I want to move off the center line and attack at your blind spot at an angle, I want to pivot behind you but the main principle is not keeping the engagement in that center line...



First I think there is a misconception of what the Wing Chun centerline is.  I actually joke sometimes that they used one term to describe three different things in order to confuse people .  I have my centerline (shove a rod down the center of my head to the ground), my centerline plane (the straight line to my opponent), my opponent's centerline, same as mine.  As such I can attack my opponent's centerline from their front, flank, rear etc.  My centerline plane does NOT have to meet my opponents.  As a matter of fact it is better that it doesn't.

To ram this point home, in my school of Wing Chun my job/goal is to try and fight on the "blind side" so I am constantly trying to stay on the flank of my opponent much the same as you explain.  Now I will get there via stepping in, but at an angle, but I am always trying to maintain a position where my opponent, if he wants to attack me with both hands, has to either reach across his body with his opposite hand OR constantly reorient, which if I am doing my job correctly he will have a great deal of trouble doing.


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## Juany118 (Feb 3, 2017)

Nvm


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## Juany118 (Feb 3, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> I said it isn't the same as Northern Bagua Zhang. You can't compare an apple to a pineapple or a pine cone to a pineapple and expect it to be what you're familiar with. Southern Bagua starts at a central point and works outwards.
> 
> It's always been relayed to me that Bagua has a close association with the snake and Taiji the crane. These do not necessarily mean the arts that have come to be named after Bagua & Taiji, but the theory itself. I have yet to see any two versions of Bagua, Taiji or Wu Xing theory be explained and interpreted the same.
> 
> I'm not a Choy Lay Fut practitioner so I won't comment on any similarities or not. I only posted them for reference of southern Bagua and palm methods.



I would even ask "what is your definition of internal martial arts?". I say this because even Southern Bagua is referred to as internal afaik.  I think people get wrapped up in appearance when it comes to that concept sometimes.

First that term is a post WWII (I think 1960s?) Artifact.  Second if I am tense and someone catches it, they call me out.  I need to be relaxed to properly do Wing Chun.  Maybe the problem is some people don't realize there is actually a debate, in side some portions of the Wing Chun Community, as to whether we practice an internal, external, or "all of the above" martial art?  Simply because you move in "straight" lines doesn't mean you universally follow stereotypical external principles.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 3, 2017)

*Se Ying Diu Sau (Snake Form Artful Hand) *

Lineage

1.      Choy Gau Yee

2.      Leung Sil Jong

3.      Leung Tien Chiu

4.      Leung Gar Fong

5.      Fong Chok Ming


Se Ying Diu Sau began in the Ching dynasty with Leung Sil Jong who learned it from a Siu Lam monk (Choy Gau Yee?) in Fook Gien, Pu Teen. Hue Lung Gung was a teacher of Choy Kuen and Hung Kuen contracted by the Leung family to teach their youth in Law Ding village in Kuong Sae. Leung Sil Jong was the caretaker of the Leung family ancestral hall. Leung Sil Jong was old at this time and liked to drink. When the youth were celebrating the New Year, they were making quite a disturbance, banging on drums and clashing cymbals, Leung Sil Jong, being hung over, insisted that they stop. The youth then proceeded to torment the old man by making even more noise, at which point Leung Sil Jong flew into a rage and trashed everything. The youth sought out their boxing coach Hue Lung Gong to teach Leung Sil Jong a lesson for ruining their celebration. Hue Lung Gong upon seeing the inebriated Leung Sil Jong insisted he go sleep it off, but Leung Sil Jong was still angry and wanted to fight so he pressed the issue to the point where Hue Lung Gong couldn’t back out. Leong Sil Jong soundly whipped Hue Lung Gong to everyone’s amazement, as no one knew that he studied martial arts. Having lost face Hue Lung Gong prepared to leave, it was only upon the insistence of Leung Sil Jong that he remained. Hue Lung Gong continued to teach Choy and Hung fist while Leung Sil Jong passed on the Snake Form Artful Hand to the Leung family of Law Ding.

This is the history as passed on by Leung Gar Fong, prior to him closing his hands.


5 Key Words of Se Ying Diu Sau

1.      Niem (Adhere)

2.      Chien (Bind)

3.      Mien  (Soft)

4.      Lien (Connect)

5.      Chiur (Follow)

Explanation of the 5 key words.

*Adhere* is the snake form’s common hand move, like the snake coiling around the victim. *Binding* is considered the first stage to securing a grip. *Soft* is pliant and strong. *Connect* is the act of connecting softly. Do not break off, maintain continuity until the deed is accomplished. *Follow* is moving back and forth accompanied with strength be persistent and forceful.


It is composed of a total of 136 forms in the entire set and is divided into 4 sections.

1.      Fingers and Palms

2.      Bridge and Block Hands (Adhesive Bridge)

3.      Leg Methods

4.      Footwork


This is about the extent of what I know about this style. From what I’ve seen it is very much like a proto-Wing Chun method, very flowing with narrow stances and short bridges. Legend states that Leung Bok Chau, the supposed husband of Yim Wing Chun, was also a student of Choy Gau Yee (Choy Gar founder) prior to learning the Crane method from Yim Si and Yim Wing Chun. Could this be the Snake system in the union of Snake and Crane that ultimately lead to what we refer to as Wing Chun.

It is said that Se Ying Diu Sau is based upon the 8 diagrams, to what extent I don't know. Its curious to think that there are other Choy Gar lineages that tell the story of Leung Bok Chou having learned from Choy Gau Yee, and it's quite possible that before it was known as Choy Gar that the actual name was Se Ying Diu Sau. Choy Gar itself is said to be a blend of Lau Gar (Crane) and Mok Gar (Snake). It is famous for it's Snake hands and Rat stepping and is now know as the style of the Dragon. Intriguing is it not?


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## Nobody Important (Feb 3, 2017)

Found this on Youku by plugging in the characters for Se Ying Diu Sau. My Chinese isn't very good, but the description stated Snake Form Artful Hand. This fellow is known for his Deng Family Hung Kuen and a Hard Style Wing Chun. In this video, which is mostly a tutorial, he shows some things that are very Wing Chun like, I'm not ruling it out that it is Wing Chun because one part he did was nearly identical to the Fa Kuen section of Yuen Family Siu Lim Tau. Maybe someone else can clairify what is in this video, because if it's not Wing Chun it sure looks like it.

蛇形刁手—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看


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## KPM (Feb 3, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> I said it isn't the same as Northern Bagua Zhang. You can't compare an apple to a pineapple or a pine cone to a pineapple and expect it to be what you're familiar with. Southern Bagua starts at a central point and works outwards.
> 
> It's always been relayed to me that Bagua has a close association with the snake and Taiji the crane. These do not necessarily mean the arts that have come to be named after Bagua & Taiji, but the theory itself. I have yet to see any two versions of Bagua, Taiji or Wu Xing theory be explained and interpreted the same.
> 
> I'm not a Choy Lay Fut practitioner so I won't comment on any similarities or not. I only posted them for reference of southern Bagua and palm methods.




Ah!  See this is where I was misinterpreting as well!  When you said "Ba Gua" in the OP I immediately assumed the martial art of Ba Gua Chang.  That is what my friend practices.  But you are referring to "Ba Gua" in a more generic sense.  Really, "Ba Gua" simply refers to the 8 trigrams.  So anything that is divided up into 8 directions, or 8 hands, or whatever....can have the label "Ba Gua."  I've even seen people talk about "Ba Gua footwork" in Ip Man's Wing Chun as something he taught in Foshan but abandoned in Hong Kong.


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## KPM (Feb 3, 2017)

I have my centerline (shove a rod down the center of my head to the ground) = Motherline


, my centerline plane (the straight line to my opponent), = Centerline

 my opponent's centerline, same as mine. = Central-line

That's how I think of it.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 3, 2017)

KPM said:


> I have my centerline (shove a rod down the center of my head to the ground) = Motherline
> 
> 
> , my centerline plane (the straight line to my opponent), = Centerline
> ...


Mine is as follows.
Mother line - imaginary pole from bai hua to huiyen. Like a carousel horse.
Inside line - line between me and opponent.
Center line - divides body equally in half, left & right.


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## wckf92 (Feb 3, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> This form is as close as I could find as to what the Se Ying Diu Sau style looks like as best I can remember.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kind of off topic but I hope I'm moving like that at 90!


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## wckf92 (Feb 3, 2017)

KPM said:


> I've even seen people talk about "Ba Gua footwork" in Ip Man's Wing Chun as something he taught in Foshan but abandoned in Hong Kong.



I agree. And this is why I am interested to learn more. @yak sao mentioned is quite correctly with regard to jong footwork and tri-pole methods.
That being said, I'm not sure how many of YM's students learned it...nor why it was supposedly dropped.(?)


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## oaktree (Feb 3, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> I said it isn't the same as Northern Bagua Zhang. You can't compare an apple to a pineapple or a pine cone to a pineapple and expect it to be what you're familiar with. Southern Bagua starts at a central point and works outwards.
> 
> It's always been relayed to me that Bagua has a close association with the snake and Taiji the crane. These do not necessarily mean the arts that have come to be named after Bagua & Taiji, but the theory itself. I have yet to see any two versions of Bagua, Taiji or Wu Xing theory be explained and interpreted the same.
> 
> I'm not a Choy Lay Fut practitioner so I won't comment on any similarities or not. I only posted them for reference of southern Bagua and palm methods.


I don't see what makes it any more or less Bagua in your context or mine. Please provide Chinese hanzi sources so I can read the actual Chinese of what you are saying or speak in hanzi so I can read what you are saying.


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## oaktree (Feb 3, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> First I think there is a misconception of what the Wing Chun centerline is.  I actually joke sometimes that they used one term to describe three different things in order to confuse people .  I have my centerline (shove a rod down the center of my head to the ground), my centerline plane (the straight line to my opponent), my opponent's centerline, same as mine.  As such I can attack my opponent's centerline from their front, flank, rear etc.  My centerline plane does NOT have to meet my opponents.  As a matter of fact it is better that it doesn't.
> 
> To ram this point home, in my school of Wing Chun my job/goal is to try and fight on the "blind side" so I am constantly trying to stay on the flank of my opponent much the same as you explain.  Now I will get there via stepping in, but at an angle, but I am always trying to maintain a position where my opponent, if he wants to attack me with both hands, has to either reach across his body with his opposite hand OR constantly reorient, which if I am doing my job correctly he will have a great deal of trouble doing.


Hey juany I touched hands with different guys from wing Chun, in fact my teacher also teaches it and majority of the time it is linear and on the line attacks, I don't mean to say that there are exceptions same as in Baguazhang we have linear attacks but we as Baguazhang practitioners are more circular then linear.


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## oaktree (Feb 3, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> It is likely based on this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But what makes it Bagua bass is each direction based on a trigram? Is each palm based on a trigram? Baguazhang is based off the trigram each palm and in some cases entire form or sequence is based on a trigram. Maybe if I see the hanzi that is being used to describe say Bagua stepping and more about it in hanzi I can understand it.


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## KPM (Feb 3, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> I agree. And this is why I am interested to learn more. @yak sao mentioned is quite correctly with regard to jong footwork and tri-pole methods.
> That being said, I'm not sure how many of YM's students learned it...nor why it was supposedly dropped.(?)



The story I heard was that Ip Man stream-lined and refined what he was teaching when he got to Hong Kong.  This could right along with what Juany has said elsewhere about Ip Man never intending to teach at that stage of his life and having to go back and remember and reconstruct certain things that he had simply made part of the way he moved.  Anyway...supposedly Ip Man dropped a lot of the "flowery terminology" and more elaborate drills to make things more straightforward.  So he didn't necessary drop what had been called "Ba Gua footwork" in Foshan, he simply didn't teach it as a specific module of learning with that name.  All the footwork was still there, just taught in a more integrated fashion with the training.


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## dudewingchun (Feb 3, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> I agree. And this is why I am interested to learn more. @yak sao mentioned is quite correctly with regard to jong footwork and tri-pole methods.
> That being said, I'm not sure how many of YM's students learned it...nor why it was supposedly dropped.(?)



Is there any footage of duncan leungs tri pole?


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## dudewingchun (Feb 3, 2017)

KPM said:


> The story I heard was that Ip Man stream-lined and refined what he was teaching when he got to Hong Kong.  This could right along with what Juany has said elsewhere about Ip Man never intending to teach at that stage of his life and having to go back and remember and reconstruct certain things that he had simply made part of the way he moved.  Anyway...supposedly Ip Man dropped a lot of the "flowery terminology" and more elaborate drills to make things more straightforward.  So he didn't necessary drop what had been called "Ba Gua footwork" in Foshan, he simply didn't teach it as a specific module of learning with that name.  All the footwork was still there, just taught in a more integrated fashion with the training.



In an Ip chun book i have it has a chapter on Ba gua and he mentioned he noticed Ip Man had streamlined it and removed that stuff from his teaching.


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## wckf92 (Feb 3, 2017)

dudewingchun said:


> Is there any footage of duncan leungs tri pole?



Sadly...no. 
Wish there was!


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## wckf92 (Feb 3, 2017)

dudewingchun said:


> In an Ip chun book i have it has a chapter on Ba gua and he mentioned he noticed Ip Man had streamlined it and removed that stuff from his teaching.



I hear ya bro...but I'm not sure thats entirely accurate. There are still 'signatures' of it out there...


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## dudewingchun (Feb 3, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Sadly...no.
> Wish there was!



Ah damn. hard to find much footage of Duncan Leungs style.


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## wckf92 (Feb 3, 2017)

dudewingchun said:


> Ah damn. hard to find much footage of Duncan Leungs style.



Yep. Sure is!


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## Juany118 (Feb 3, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Found this on Youku by plugging in the characters for Se Ying Diu Sau. My Chinese isn't very good, but the description stated Snake Form Artful Hand. This fellow is known for his Deng Family Hung Kuen and a Hard Style Wing Chun. In this video, which is mostly a tutorial, he shows some things that are very Wing Chun like, I'm not ruling it out that it is Wing Chun because one part he did was nearly identical to the Fa Kuen section of Yuen Family Siu Lim Tau. Maybe someone else can clairify what is in this video, because if it's not Wing Chun it sure looks like it.
> 
> 蛇形刁手—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看



Well the thing is that WC is a vast sub family.  Example, YM lineage is typically very different from mainland versions, and the YM lineage I study, TWC is different from most other YM Lineages.  I think sometimes, when people think "WC" they picture stereotypical WC and this would be inaccurate.

All of this, and the prior conversation where the origins of WC came up, reminds me of an alternative tale of WC's creation.  

Most have heard the "Ng Mui sees snake fight crane.  Ng Mui teaches the art to Wing Chun. She in turn teaches the art to her Red Boat Husband..." Etc.  There is another though.  An alternative states that WC was created by committee, that its purpose was to have a system that took bits and pieces from multiple arts to have a single art that could produce competent Kung Fu practitioners more quickly.  The one story I read said 5 years vs the 15 years it could take with other arts.  Ng Mui was simply the lone survivor of this committee.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 3, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Well the thing is that WC is a vast sub family.  Example, YM lineage is typically very different from mainland versions, and the YM lineage I study, TWC is different from most other YM Lineages.  I think sometimes, when people think "WC" they picture stereotypical WC and this would be inaccurate.
> 
> All of this, and the prior conversation where the origins of WC came up, reminds me of an alternative tale of WC's creation.
> 
> Most have heard the "Ng Mui sees snake fight crane.  Ng Mui teaches the art to Wing Chun. She in turn teaches the art to her Red Boat Husband..." Etc.  There is another though.  An alternative states that WC was created by committee, that its purpose was to have a system that took bits and pieces from multiple arts to have a single art that could produce competent Kung Fu practitioners more quickly.  The one story I read said 5 years vs the 15 years it could take with other arts.  Ng Mui was simply the lone survivor of this committee.


I've heard this tale as well, and it shows how one legend can be absorbed into another because of a common ancestor, in this case Yongchun White Crane. The story you relate is actually one of the legends surrounding the formation of Ngo Cho Kun (Wuzu Quan), the 5 Ancestors method. The coming together of 5 styles (Monkey, Crane, Lohan, Tai Cho and Dat Mor). The tale became to be associated with Wing Chun because of Yongchun White Crane, it is a predominant part of 5 Ancestors, to the point, that some branches are known as White Crane without the distinction of the other arts.


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## Juany118 (Feb 4, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> I've heard this tale as well, and it shows how one legend can be absorbed into another because of a common ancestor, in this case Yongchun White Crane. The story you relate is actually one of the legends surrounding the formation of Ngo Cho Kun (Wuzu Quan), the 5 Ancestors method. The coming together of 5 styles (Monkey, Crane, Lohan, Tai Cho and Dat Mor). The tale became to be associated with Wing Chun because of Yongchun White Crane, it is a predominant part of 5 Ancestors, to the point, that some branches are known as White Crane without the distinction of the other arts.




There are just so many legends when it comes to WC.  We have the Ng Mui related ones, then one that have Yim Wing-Chun learning different Martial Arts styles from her father and that in using them with her own structure, essentially identical to one of the Whitecrane legends as well, just with the names changed.  As an example, the father's names, Yim Sei and Fong Jong respectively.   Then we have the issue that at least 5 martial arts tie their creation to Ng Mui, often in similar ways.

All that said Myths tend to have kernels of truth buried within.  So if we are presented with an art that has many different creation myths, most if not all of which are shared with other arts, I think it's time to go into "Mr. Spock" mode.  With WC the only thing you can really do, in Mr. Spock mode, is work backwards, looking at the art itself and seeing what story appears to fit its structure best, because the art is the only "fact" we really have to compare against the myths that isn't in dispute.

As an example, the Chinese Government officially recognized there was a Southern Shaolin Temple but the Northern Shaolin Temple points out there are no records to verify its existence and while they have found evidence of multiple Temples in the south there is no archeological evidence that any of them were a "Shaolin" Temple.  We can't even prove some people existed, forget Ng Mui, there isn't even verifiable proof Leung Bik existed.  It's legend, rumor and inuendo.  Gotta love it


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## KPM (Feb 4, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Ng Mui was simply the lone survivor of this committee.



I am familiar with that version of legendary history myself.  But the story was the Ng Mui AND Chi Sim were the survivors.  Ng Mui founded Wing Chun and Chi Sim founded Weng Chun, and it is said that this is why the arts are similar.  My sifu in Weng Chun still tells the story that what Chi Sim taught was a culmination of arts from Shaolin and not anything to do with an ancestral White Crane style.  And there is no "snake" connection at all in Weng Chun.  So I've theorized in the past that "original" Wing Chun and Weng Chun were probably very similar, if not the same.....and that it may very well have been this "snake" influence on Wing Chun that took it down a divergent path from Weng Chun.


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## Juany118 (Feb 4, 2017)

KPM said:


> I am familiar with that version of legendary history myself.  But the story was the Ng Mui AND Chi Sim were the survivors.  Ng Mui founded Wing Chun and Chi Sim founded Weng Chun, and it is said that this is why the arts are similar.  My sifu in Weng Chun still tells the story that what Chi Sim taught was a culmination of arts from Shaolin and not anything to do with an ancestral White Crane style.  And there is no "snake" connection at all in Weng Chun.  So I've theorized in the past that "original" Wing Chun and Weng Chun were probably very similar, if not the same.....and that it may very well have been this "snake" influence on Wing Chun that took it down a divergent path from Weng Chun.


I was actually watching a video with a mainland with where he said Wing Chun and Weng Chun are the same art.  What he was told is that the State had outlawed Weng Chun so people started saying "Weng Chun?  No I study WING Chun, you got the wrong guy." Lol


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## KPM (Feb 4, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I was actually watching a video with a mainland with where he said Wing Chun and Weng Chun are the same art.  What he was told is that the State had outlawed Weng Chun so people started saying "Weng Chun?  No I study WING Chun, you got the wrong guy." Lol



That may have applied 100 years ago.  But obviously different arts today due to divergent development.  One story told in Weng Chun circles is that Leung Jan and Fung Siu Ching were teaching in Foshan at the same time.  LJ had a dispute with another Weng Chun teacher and it was FSC that convinced them they were doing the same art and should work together.


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## Juany118 (Feb 4, 2017)

KPM said:


> That may have applied 100 years ago.  But obviously different arts today due to divergent development.  One story told in Weng Chun circles is that Leung Jan and Fung Siu Ching were teaching in Foshan at the same time.  LJ had a dispute with another Weng Chun teacher and it was FSC that convinced them they were doing the same art and should work together.



I would have to learn A LOT more about the main land WC styles and Weng Chun period BUT one wonders if the difference isn't really tied to one cat, Leung Jan in the example you raised, but rather if we would see more, or less, "drift" across all of the Lineages of both.  If this is the case then it could simply be as much a case, if not more, of Family lineage divergence as it is Weng vs Wing, could it not?


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## KPM (Feb 4, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I would have to learn A LOT more about the main land WC styles and Weng Chun period BUT one wonders if the difference isn't really tied to one cat, Leung Jan in the example you raised, but rather if we would see more, or less, "drift" across all of the Lineages of both.  If this is the case then it could simply be as much a case, if not more, of Family lineage divergence as it is Weng vs Wing, could it not?



Honestly, I take that story I relayed with a "grain of salt."  I think Wing Chun has had the "3 form" version of empty hands for a long time.  Leung Jan passed this down to Chan Wah Shun, and his classmate Fok Bo Chuen passed this down to Yuen Kay Shan, strongly suggesting that this is how it was taught by Wong Wah Bo.  But Weng Chun has never had this format.  If there is any grain of truth to that story, it is probably that the biomechanics and applications were likely very similar if not the same, even if the curriculum and teaching format was different.  So that still leaves room for "divergent" development or "drift" even during the Red Boat stage of history or before.  And I am sure we would see "drift" across all of the lineages over time as you said.  Most of these guys knew more than one system of kung fu.  If you have guys that have been doing Hung Kuen since childhood that then convert to Wx Chun, their background in Hung Kuen can't help but influence how they do their Chun.  This was certainly a factor in Weng Chun down the years!   Sum Nung studied a different version of Wing Chun before he became Yuen Kay Shan's student.  He even incorporated some of it into the curriculum when he began to teach.  So his prior studies certainly influenced what he taught later.  Chan Wah Shun's son taught something totally different from what most people would identify as Wing Chun or Weng Chun because he added in a lot of stuff from different styles.   So really, I don't think there is any such animal as "original" Wing Chun still around.  Every living example has changed somewhat with each generation that passed it on.  

And back then there was no video recording to prove what previous generations had practiced.  So you can have guys like Wong Shun Leung stating that he was teaching just what Ip Man taught him.  And we don't know how to interpret that.  He wouldn't necessarily mean he was teaching the EXACT same curriculum and EXACT same biomechanics, etc.  Wing Chun is one of those systems were you are expected to adapt things to yourself and not necessarily just copy your teacher.  So knowing this, maybe WSL was doing what Ip Man taught him, even if he had modified, stream-lined, improved (!) etc what he was passing on.  Same would have gone from prior generations.  If someone asked Ip Man, he probably told them he was doing exactly what he learned from his teacher.  But we know he changed things over the years.  That doesn't make either of them liars!  They likely just didn't mean what we think they meant!  ;-)


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## Juany118 (Feb 4, 2017)

KPM said:


> Honestly, I take that story I relayed with a "grain of salt."  I think Wing Chun has had the "3 form" version of empty hands for a long time.  Leung Jan passed this down to Chan Wah Shun, and his classmate Fok Bo Chuen passed this down to Yuen Kay Shan, strongly suggesting that this is how it was taught by Wong Wah Bo.  But Weng Chun has never had this format.  If there is any grain of truth to that story, it is probably that the biomechanics and applications were likely very similar if not the same, even if the curriculum and teaching format was different.  So that still leaves room for "divergent" development or "drift" even during the Red Boat stage of history or before.  And I am sure we would see "drift" across all of the lineages over time as you said.  Most of these guys knew more than one system of kung fu.  If you have guys that have been doing Hung Kuen since childhood that then convert to Wx Chun, their background in Hung Kuen can't help but influence how they do their Chun.  This was certainly a factor in Weng Chun down the years!   Sum Nung studied a different version of Wing Chun before he became Yuen Kay Shan's student.  He even incorporated some of it into the curriculum when he began to teach.  So his prior studies certainly influenced what he taught later.  Chan Wah Shun's son taught something totally different from what most people would identify as Wing Chun or Weng Chun because he added in a lot of stuff from different styles.   So really, I don't think there is any such animal as "original" Wing Chun still around.  Every living example has changed somewhat with each generation that passed it on.
> 
> And back then there was no video recording to prove what previous generations had practiced.  So you can have guys like Wong Shun Leung stating that he was teaching just what Ip Man taught him.  And we don't know how to interpret that.  He wouldn't necessarily mean he was teaching the EXACT same curriculum and EXACT same biomechanics, etc.  Wing Chun is one of those systems were you are expected to adapt things to yourself and not necessarily just copy your teacher.  So knowing this, maybe WSL was doing what Ip Man taught him, even if he had modified, stream-lined, improved (!) etc what he was passing on.  Same would have gone from prior generations.  If someone asked Ip Man, he probably told them he was doing exactly what he learned from his teacher.  But we know he changed things over the years.  That doesn't make either of them liars!  They likely just didn't mean what we think they meant!  ;-)




Agreed.  I have said again and again, "my WC is not your WC.  We all bring ourselves to our art." Previous training will inevitably be part of this.

As for the last I think, to an extent, "I teach what my Sifu taught me" can be boiled down to the following, for the modest student.

1. Respect.  If you do something different it can be perceived by some that you are saying "My Sifu was wrong." There are many other reasons to explain a change of course but to avoid even having to engage in that conversation you may simply say "I teach what I was taught."
2. Reality.  A single Martial Art is VAST in scope.  Techniques, foundational principles, strategy.  Often the difference between Master and Student is priorities.  

Then you combine how we all bring ourselves to our art.  I think, as you raised his name, WSL is the perfect example.  WSL was first, according to what we a told, someone training in Western Boxing.  This would help explain why he focuses of the punch, where others may prefer the palm strike.  

Then we have the video I posted of DP speaking about the mook jong.  DP says that WSL changed the order, putting the techniques he felt most relevant, based on his challenge fight experience, first.  He didn't change the techniques though, only the order and that was based on how HE fought the challenge matches.  However nothing he teaches, technique wise, is something YM didn't teach him, WSL simply prioritizes in his own way.


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 4, 2017)

KPM said:


> Honestly, I take that story I relayed with a "grain of salt."  I think Wing Chun has had the "3 form" version of empty hands for a long time.  Leung Jan passed this down to Chan Wah Shun, and his classmate Fok Bo Chuen passed this down to Yuen Kay Shan, strongly suggesting that this is how it was taught by Wong Wah Bo.  But Weng Chun has never had this format.  If there is any grain of truth to that story, it is probably that the biomechanics and applications were likely very similar if not the same, even if the curriculum and teaching format was different.  So that still leaves room for "divergent" development or "drift" even during the Red Boat stage of history or before.  And I am sure we would see "drift" across all of the lineages over time as you said.  Most of these guys knew more than one system of kung fu.  If you have guys that have been doing Hung Kuen since childhood that then convert to Wx Chun, their background in Hung Kuen can't help but influence how they do their Chun.  This was certainly a factor in Weng Chun down the years!   Sum Nung studied a different version of Wing Chun before he became Yuen Kay Shan's student.  He even incorporated some of it into the curriculum when he began to teach.  So his prior studies certainly influenced what he taught later.  Chan Wah Shun's son taught something totally different from what most people would identify as Wing Chun or Weng Chun because he added in a lot of stuff from different styles.   So really, I don't think there is any such animal as "original" Wing Chun still around.  Every living example has changed somewhat with each generation that passed it on.
> 
> And back then there was no video recording to prove what previous generations had practiced.  So you can have guys like Wong Shun Leung stating that he was teaching just what Ip Man taught him.  And we don't know how to interpret that.  He wouldn't necessarily mean he was teaching the EXACT same curriculum and EXACT same biomechanics, etc.  Wing Chun is one of those systems were you are expected to adapt things to yourself and not necessarily just copy your teacher.  So knowing this, maybe WSL was doing what Ip Man taught him, even if he had modified, stream-lined, improved (!) etc what he was passing on.  Same would have gone from prior generations.  If someone asked Ip Man, he probably told them he was doing exactly what he learned from his teacher.  But we know he changed things over the years.  That doesn't make either of them liars!  They likely just didn't mean what we think they meant!  ;-)



Hi, not disagreeing with you but just a correction. Sum nung learnt from a different teacher before yuen kay san but the same art not a different wing chun. Cheung bo is of the same lineage decending from fung siu ching.


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## KPM (Feb 5, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Hi, not disagreeing with you but just a correction. Sum nung learnt from a different teacher before yuen kay san but the same art not a different wing chun. Cheung bo is of the same lineage decending from fung siu ching.



Uh.  Sorry. Cheung Bo left students other than Sum Nung.  All you have to do is look to see that it  wasn't the same thing.  The 12 San Sik taught at the beginning of the system came from Cheung Bo.  Yuen  Kay Shan didn't teach that.   Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun is primarily from Fok Bo Chuen.  Fung  Siu Ching was Weng Chun.  When I see Sum Nung/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun I don't see any Weng Chun in their essential mechanics and forms.  Maybe FSC helped YKS refine some things or add some Chin Na elements, but the system is very much Wing Chun and not Weng Chun.  I'm not sure Cheung Bo's lineage has ever been firmly established.


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## Vajramusti (Feb 5, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> This is a long shot, as it is not a well known topic, but I'd thought I'd ask just in case anyone has ever heard about it.
> 
> There is an obscure hypothesis concerning a relationship between Wing Chun and Bagua Zhang.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


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## greytowhite (Feb 5, 2017)

Interesting. Fan Zhiyong's baguazhang has a Stepping in 8 Directions footwork pattern.

ChinaFromInside.com presents...  BAGUAZHANG - Origins and  characteristics of Fan Family Baguazhang

Jonathan Bluestein interviewed James Cama of Fut Sao Wing Chun before he passed and apparently there was some kind of Imperial Baguazhang (most likely related to Yin Fu or Gong Baotien?) that looked like an advanced set in the Fut Sao system also named Bagua. What do I know?


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 5, 2017)

KPM said:


> Uh.  Sorry. Cheung Bo left students other than Sum Nung.  All you have to do is look to see that it  wasn't the same thing.  The 12 San Sik taught at the beginning of the system came from Cheung Bo.  Yuen  Kay Shan didn't teach that.   Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun is primarily from Fok Bo Chuen.  Fung  Siu Ching was Weng Chun.  When I see Sum Nung/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun I don't see any Weng Chun in their essential mechanics and forms.  Maybe FSC helped YKS refine some things or add some Chin Na elements, but the system is very much Wing Chun and not Weng Chun.  I'm not sure Cheung Bo's lineage has ever been firmly established.




So you are saying that dai fa min kam and wong wah bo, who both learned from leung bok toh, did different styles and past down completely different versions down to fok bo chun and fung siu ching? Considering that fok bo chun was a student of both wong wah bo and dai fa min kam . They had the same teacher


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Found this on Youku by plugging in the characters for Se Ying Diu Sau. My Chinese isn't very good, but the description stated Snake Form Artful Hand. This fellow is known for his Deng Family Hung Kuen and a Hard Style Wing Chun. In this video, which is mostly a tutorial, he shows some things that are very Wing Chun like, I'm not ruling it out that it is Wing Chun because one part he did was nearly identical to the Fa Kuen section of Yuen Family Siu Lim Tau. Maybe someone else can clairify what is in this video, because if it's not Wing Chun it sure looks like it.
> 
> 蛇形刁手—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看




Looks closer to weng chun to me.


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## KPM (Feb 6, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> So you are saying that dai fa min kam and wong wah bo, who both learned from leung bok toh, did different styles and past down completely different versions down to fok bo chun and fung siu ching? Considering that fok bo chun was a student of both wong wah bo and dai fa min kam . They had the same teacher



Dai Fa Min Kam learned from Chi Sim not Leung Bok Chao according to Weng Chun histories.  Very few connect Fok Bo Chuen and Fung Siu Ching at all, other than to say that Yuen Kay Shan learned from both of them.  And I've never heard anyone else say that Fok Bo Chuen learned from Dai Fa Min Kam.   Wing Chun and Weng Chun are not the same art.  Cousins.  But not the same art.


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## obi_juan_salami (Feb 6, 2017)

KPM said:


> Dai Fa Min Kam learned from Chi Sim not Leung Bok Chao according to Weng Chun histories.  Very few connect Fok Bo Chuen and Fung Siu Ching at all, other than to say that Yuen Kay Shan learned from both of them.  And I've never heard anyone else say that Fok Bo Chuen learned from Dai Fa Min Kam.   Wing Chun and Weng Chun are not the same art.  Cousins.  But not the same art.



Then i guess its a matter of whos verbally past down history ia correct. Weng chun or yks wing chun history. As in sum nung wing chun history dai fa min kam did indeed learn from leung bok toh and taugh both fok bo chun and fung siu ching. It was fok bo chun that reccommended yuen kay san to his kung fu brother fung siu ching for instruction. But as we know this argument will never be settled as it is like i said, a matter of which history you choose to believe. I choose to believe the history told by sum nung and my teachers.


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## KPM (Feb 6, 2017)

^^^^ Very true!  Its hard to treat any of it as real "history."  Hard to know what is right!  I just know that YKS Wing Chun looks nothing at all like Weng Chun.


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## Juany118 (Feb 6, 2017)

KPM said:


> ^^^^ Very true!  Its hard to treat any of it as real "history."  Hard to know what is right!  I just know that YKS Wing Chun looks nothing at all like Weng Chun.



With how good the Chinese were at keeping other records is any else like "WTF!!!!!!!!!!"  when it comes to the craptastic records like this.  I am not even talking "official" records.  How many diaries and letters do we have from "common folk" and in China MA training, for the most part, wasn't actually given to the most "common" people.  Martial Arts training cost money (outside of your family) and most people were too busy working to survive, let alone having the money to pay for the training.  The lack of documentation is thus disconcerting to me, especially since China has a LONG history of diarists among the literate, which martial artists often were... Keeping a Diary in China: Memories for the Future | The China Story

Sorry, I guess once a history freak always a history freak.


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## Jens (Feb 6, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Nvm





Nobody Important said:


> Southern Bagua stepping encompasses plum blossom aka: 5 elements, 4 points & 8 directions.


Please clarify how the 5 elements, 4 points & 8 directions fits into the plum blossom


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## Juany118 (Feb 6, 2017)

Jens said:


> Please clarify how the 5 elements, 4 points & 8 directions fits into the plum blossom




Because traditional plum blossom training (using 9 poles) has you moving out in the 8 directions or moving diagonally to the 4 corners/points?


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## Nobody Important (Feb 7, 2017)

Jens said:


> Please clarify how the 5 elements, 4 points & 8 directions fits into the plum blossom


Southern Bagua stepping is based on 9 points, 8 on the perimeter and 1 in the center, the 8 directions. Plum blossom (5 Elements) are the same thing, and are based on a 5 point star, all points are found within the Bagua. The 4 Cardinal points (4 Gates) are the north, south, east & west points. Another variation of 5 elements is the north, south, east, west and central points of the Bagua. Southern Bagua stepping is based upon a Mandela that encompasses the other major stepping patterns.


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## Juany118 (Feb 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Southern Bagua stepping is based on 9 points, 8 on the perimeter and 1 in the center, the 8 directions. Plum blossom (5 Elements) are the same thing, and are based on a 5 point star, all points are found within the Bagua. The 4 Cardinal points (4 Gates) are the north, south, east & west points. Another variation of 5 elements is the north, south, east, west and central points of the Bagua. Southern Bagua stepping is based upon a Mandela that encompasses the other major stepping patterns.


You were more eloquent.  Really I think the biggest difference is orientation.  Plum flower works from the inside out, BG outside in, as I understand


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## Nobody Important (Feb 7, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> You were more eloquent.  Really I think the biggest difference is orientation.  Plum flower works from the inside out, BG outside in, as I understand


Southern Bagua works from center out, northern Bagua outside in. I spoke of this in some earlier posts. All southern stepping has you at the center.


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## Juany118 (Feb 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Southern Bagua works from center out, northern Bagua outside in. I spoke of this in some earlier posts. All southern stepping has you at the center.


Aah I missed that.  Thank you for the clarification.  The only BG Sifus in my area are Northern style so I tunnel visioned.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 7, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Aah I missed that.  Thank you for the clarification.  The only BG Sifus in my area are Northern style so I tunnel visioned.


I should clarify, southern Bagua stepping. There is no southern Bagua martial art I am aware of.


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## Juany118 (Feb 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> I should clarify, southern Bagua stepping. There is no southern Bagua martial art I am aware of.



Ahhh that makes it more clear.  It is kinda annoying when a term can be used to define both a concept and a specific art as well isn't it?


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## anerlich (Feb 8, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I would even ask "what is your definition of internal martial arts?". I say this because even Southern Bagua is referred to as internal afaik.  I think people get wrapped up in appearance when it comes to that concept sometimes.
> 
> First that term is a post WWII (I think 1960s?) Artifact.  Second if I am tense and someone catches it, they call me out.  I need to be relaxed to properly do Wing Chun.  Maybe the problem is some people don't realize there is actually a debate, in side some portions of the Wing Chun Community, as to whether we practice an internal, external, or "all of the above" martial art?  Simply because you move in "straight" lines doesn't mean you universally follow stereotypical external principles.



I did Xingyi and Bagua for about five years, with some Taiji mixed in.

Some practitioners of these arts refer to them as Neijia arts, or internal. My instructor in those arts said that he regarded them as "internal" because they were based on the principles of TCM - Xingyi on Five Element Theory, BaguaZhang on the eight trigrams (involved in some acupuncture systems) and taiji on yin and yang. Where as other arts such as WC are not ... in his opinion.

"Internal" is not the same as "soft". Xingyi can be as hard as a fist of diamond.

The whole "internal/external" thing is overblown and at its base, marketing. Many WC practitioners claim they do "internal" training, but few of them explain how other than vague references to breathing and softness. Stonecrusher69's recent video on the subject is an example. No disrespect, but there's little hard definition in there.

Jiu Jitsu done properly is more "internal" by my definition (and it seems we can all choose our own, doesn't it?) than TWC. Tim Cartmell, who is highly ranked and experienced in both Neijia arts and BJJ, has stated similar opinions, and that in his opinion BJJ is an internal art.

I got introduced to Stanley Tam, a BJJ black belt from Beijing, at a Steve Maxwell seminar. He also has developed and teaches a system of Qigong and Chines Natural Healing, and he is teaching these to Steve. Very interesting guy ... I venture he knows more about the "internal" stuff than many Kung Fu guys.


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## Jens (Feb 8, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Southern Bagua stepping is based on 9 points, 8 on the perimeter and 1 in the center, the 8 directions. Plum blossom (5 Elements) are the same thing, and are based on a 5 point star, all points are found within the Bagua. The 4 Cardinal points (4 Gates) are the north, south, east & west points. Another variation of 5 elements is the north, south, east, west and central points of the Bagua. Southern Bagua stepping is based upon a Mandela that encompasses the other major stepping patterns.



thanks for the reply Nobody Important, 
                                                             Can you please explain how the Plum blossom (5 Elements) or 5 point star are found within the Bagua 9 points?

Also can you post the link to a photo of the Mandela that encompasses the other major stepping patterns within Southern Bagua stepping?


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