# (Fiction/theory) Fighting against the perfect sword



## Syeed Ali (Feb 14, 2021)

I'm working on a novel and I have a significant story element which has the heroes aiming to fight against a man with a sword that can cut anything trivially. I'm thinking it would be a moderate-long one-edged sword made for one hand and with a minimal guard. These aspects would give me a number of weaknesses to work with.

The heroes have access to any strictly-melee low-tech arms and armament, are able to be trained in any way and are expert enough to learn, but only one can fight at a time.

The man is superior to them in every physical way -- strength, endurance, dexterity. He is immune to simple "cuts". His limitations are with speed and experience.

Given that he has learned to be excellent with the styles of his region (think the familiar Viking and European medieval stuff), the primary vector for attack is to leverage those style weaknesses. The secondary would be the fact that he adapts quickly, but that adaptation itself can be predicted to open up for further weaknesses. (Think The Princess Bride's "I'm not really left-handed".

Some of the things which I've been considering in the order of the fight, are:

- Armor that's sacrificial, to act as bait.
- Artifice in some manner; though a shield would technically be useless, it's visual cover and could be useful for feigns. Maybe falsifying unawareness, exhaustion or wounds.
- Accepting wounds as inevitable.
- Attempting to control the sword well enough for a self-cut (how realistic is this?)
- Dodging in various ways, and going for his legs
- Attacking his hands to train his adaptation, then attacking his elbows.
- Controlling the sword -- either by baiting for a thrust and controlling its back or the flat.
- Attempting to disarm or capture.
- Unarmed combat specific for controlling the hands and working with joints

I've got ideas through varieties of unarmed martial arts, but I don't know enough about swords or other weapons. The target audience would be comfortable with the classic choreography-fu of movies and wouldn't be picky enough with actual realism.

Are there other notions or techniques that I ought to look into, or specific martial arts that have an approach to swords?  Jujutsu seems obvious, but anything with lots of distraction and motion might work well when exaggerated in fiction.

I'm open to ideas like "Begin with Iado, play with some Baguazhang, get close and do some Judo, you need to get the disarm in and look to stylistic old wrestling for reader interest, then the nastier locks being used in early western MMA fights."


----------



## jobo (Feb 14, 2021)

cant they shoot him? it would be my plan, theycould use a crossbow if its historically set


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 14, 2021)

Syeed Ali said:


> Are there other notions or techniques that I ought to look into, or specific martial arts that have an approach to swords?


You may get some idea from these clips.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 14, 2021)

Dodge parrying, footwork, and excellent timing. Also look into disengages-if the person goes to parry/strike your blade and you disengage, you've got a nice strike available. Another solution, though probably tougher to put in a novel, is if you look up fencing binding-that is a way for blade contact that you can use with a significantly weaker blade, to control the interaction.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 15, 2021)

Steal his scabbard and fight him with that.

Use a scythe. By the time he parries it the thing will be in him.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 15, 2021)

If it cuts through "anything" without any problem, then your only really good choice is to shoot him.


----------



## CB Jones (Feb 15, 2021)

If the villain has a sword that can cut through anything...you heroe needs an item that cannot be cut.


----------



## jobo (Feb 15, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> If the villain has a sword that can cut through anything...you heroe needs an item that cannot be cut.


or a pair of running shoes


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 15, 2021)

You need an immoveable object to counter an irresistible force.


----------



## geezer (Feb 16, 2021)

Syeed Ali said:


> I'm working on a novel and I have a significant story element which has the heroes aiming to fight against a man with a sword that can cut anything* trivially*.



It cuts trivially? Wee then, just walk right in and beat the tar outta him. If he's too tough, have some friends help out. You can attend to your_ trivial _wounds later!

Otherwise a. use _projectile weapons_ (like Jobo said) or b. get a _gang together_ and use _spears_. 

Heck, our paleolithic ancestors used such techniques to beat the Neanderthal who were far stronger, and to hunt pleistocene megafauna including mammoth. That's a lot scarier than a guy with a sword that cuts trivially!


----------



## Syeed Ali (Feb 18, 2021)

jobo said:


> cant they shoot him? it would be my plan, they could use a crossbow if its historically set





Dirty Dog said:


> If it cuts through "anything" without any problem, then your only really good choice is to shoot him.



This is a scenario set up as a duel with witnesses. The goal isn't just to kill the guy but to humiliate, dethrone and hopefully kill him in public; it'll be melee. I'm still contemplating poisons and magic. Dirty fighting (powders or even dirt) is definitely something I'll have to address.





Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may get some idea from these clips.



Thanks. Watching the first one all the way through gives me some ideas. The sword-on-sword can't work, but there's some movement that is definitely useful to see.  I'll watch the rest.





Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Dodge parrying, footwork, and excellent timing. Also look into disengages-if the person goes to parry/strike your blade and you disengage, you've got a nice strike available. Another solution, though probably tougher to put in a novel, is if you look up fencing binding-that is a way for blade contact that you can use with a significantly weaker blade, to control the interaction.



Timing is hard to write about. I'm wondering how to narrate the thoughts of the one side to convey some of the planning.

Re. the parry/strike -- Kung Fu Wang's first posted video shows a parry, but a faster defender could feign that parry to gain an attack.

I'll have to do more research on this "binding" you mentioned. It seems particularly valuable. Too much of this fight is forcing distance, and I want to have moments of intimacy.





drop bear said:


> Steal his scabbard and fight him with that.
> 
> Use a scythe. By the time he parries it the thing will be in him.



The sword has no scabbard because there is nothing it can rest in safely enough. It is only held, and at best it glides through the top of a table until its guard holds it up.

I also figure that stealing-range would be the range for grappling and jointwork of whatever sort.

A scythe and other heavy-ended polearm would get cut down before getting to him. (You'll notice the parry was an instinct in that video). I've considered this, and that it makes the tip a projectile weapon of sorts, which is interesting, and the remainder becomes a spear of sorts. I've already considered a spear since there is some great martial arts work with them against swords. However, I'd love to get a cleave in on an arm (you'll love how), and that doesn't work with spears.





CB Jones said:


> If the villain has a sword that can cut through anything...you hero needs an item that cannot be cut.



Or a hero who is willing to die.





Flying Crane said:


> You need an immoveable object to counter an irresistible force.



This continues the thought experiment from CB Jones; a counter. I have a notion, and I'll keep thinking about that, but there mustn't be anything thorough.





geezer said:


> Heck, our paleolithic ancestors used such techniques to beat the Neanderthal who were far stronger, and to hunt pleistocene megafauna including mammoth. That's a lot scarier than a guy with a sword that cuts trivially!



Ambush, range, pack tactics, gauntlets, terrain and a lot of other things are right out. However, there are some other circumstances where this sort of thing will definitely be explored; my goblins are proper bastards.


----------



## Ivan (Feb 19, 2021)

Syeed Ali said:


> I'm working on a novel and I have a significant story element which has the heroes aiming to fight against a man with a sword that can cut anything trivially. I'm thinking it would be a moderate-long one-edged sword made for one hand and with a minimal guard. These aspects would give me a number of weaknesses to work with.
> 
> The heroes have access to any strictly-melee low-tech arms and armament, are able to be trained in any way and are expert enough to learn, but only one can fight at a time.
> 
> ...


Bare-handed blade catch?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 19, 2021)

Syeed Ali said:


> This is a scenario set up as a duel with witnesses. The goal isn't just to kill the guy but to humiliate, dethrone and hopefully kill him in public; it'll be melee. I'm still contemplating poisons and magic. Dirty fighting (powders or even dirt) is definitely something I'll have to address.



Not possible. Without something capable of blocking the blade, it is impossible to fight against it at close range. Your only option is to run away and shoot them from way over there. 
If you're close enough to throw dirt in their eyes, you just died.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 19, 2021)

I just re-read the OP.  I think there is a mistake made by many authors and film makers who create a long, drawn-out battle.  Lots of description, it goes on forever. I guess that appeals to people who have no familiarity and experience with the methods and the weapons.  

Personally, I think it would be more interesting to describe a fight in more realistic terms: quick, bloody, brutal, shocking (from the viewpoint of those in the middle of the melee), nothing going according to plan.  And then over, with one participant dead and the other grievously wounded. 

Joe Abercrombie has written some good stuff and takes more of that kind of approach.


----------



## Syeed Ali (Mar 1, 2021)

Ivan said:


> Bare-handed blade catch?



That's too cheesy for how I want to portray things. Besides, the enemy is stronger.  Working with the non-blade parts (weapon and wielder) are more likely.




Dirty Dog said:


> Not possible. Without something capable of blocking the blade, it is impossible to fight against it at close range. Your only option is to run away and shoot them from way over there.
> If you're close enough to throw dirt in their eyes, you just died.



This is why I want to stress knowledge of form and dexterity.





Flying Crane said:


> I think there is a mistake made by many authors and film makers who create a long, drawn-out battle.  Lots of description, it goes on forever. I guess that appeals to people who have no familiarity and experience with the methods and the weapons.
> 
> Personally, I think it would be more interesting to describe a fight in more realistic terms: quick, bloody, brutal, shocking (from the viewpoint of those in the middle of the melee), nothing going according to plan.  And then over, with one participant dead and the other grievously wounded.
> 
> Joe Abercrombie has written some good stuff and takes more of that kind of approach.



I hope to give the heroes a few paragraphs of a fighting chance, but you're right about the speed. I think it would be useful to have a few side-story fights to stress this and build tension.

Reading how others are doing this sort of thing is also important; thanks for the author recommendation.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Mar 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> cant they shoot him? it would be my plan, they could use a crossbow if its historically set


One of my LEO friends said, "Rich, if I showed up to your place, I would ask you to submit calmly. If you did cool. If not I would back up and say 'Take the Shot'"
And I am by no means a perfect specimen .


----------



## Steve (Mar 4, 2021)

Rich Parsons said:


> One of my LEO friends said, "Rich, if I showed up to your place, I would ask you to submit calmly. If you did cool. If not I would back up and say 'Take the Shot'"
> And I am by no means a perfect specimen .


You didn’t find that alarming, I take it?


----------



## Steve (Mar 4, 2021)

Syeed Ali said:


> I'm working on a novel and I have a significant story element which has the heroes aiming to fight against a man with a sword that can cut anything trivially. I'm thinking it would be a moderate-long one-edged sword made for one hand and with a minimal guard. These aspects would give me a number of weaknesses to work with.
> 
> The heroes have access to any strictly-melee low-tech arms and armament, are able to be trained in any way and are expert enough to learn, but only one can fight at a time.
> 
> ...


Seems like in a work of fiction, there would be something that would counter the blade.  Whether it’s something that makes the guy too weak to wield it, or confuses him, makes him hallucinate or something like that.   Basically, something that affects him and renders him unable to use the sword.

or, something that neutralizes the sword itself.  Makes it temporarily weak, so that it can be broken, dull, or something along those lines.

Any way you go about this, you’ll need to be clever, because at its root, this is a pretty cliched trope in martial arts type stories (books or movies).  So making it seem original and surprising is going to be a real trick.

whoever mentioned joe Abercrombie was onto something, as he does a nice job of foreshadowing amd eventually describing fight scenes.


----------



## Blindside (Mar 5, 2021)

One option in the duel is to oppose the fighter with non-contact moves against the other fighter or to parry the blade rather than meet the other sword.  It isn't impossible but just really really hard. 

If you are looking to take advice from movies I like the bit where Li Mu Bai uses a stick against a sword.  See at 4:15


----------



## hoshin1600 (Mar 5, 2021)

Perhaps you might want to look at Aikido. I am thinking about this as if the sword was a jedi light Saber. The key to beating this guy would be to not fight the sword. Fight the man. Most often movies show lots of sword clashing but that is not realistic. You want the opponents sword to just go past, to evade it, then strike the wrists or body of your opponent. My karate instructor would always say to look at the person as a punching bag with a couple of appendages that are just in the way. In Aikido we evade the sword and cut the body.
Aikido also has techniques that control the person and steal the blade away.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Mar 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> You didn’t find that alarming, I take it?


Yes, and a little no. 
He explained a large person with training is always a question. And numbers would be something possible, but people would get hurt. 
Of course it was the 90's.


----------



## Syeed Ali (Mar 24, 2021)

Thanks for the thoughts everyone!  It's useful for me to both understand what others would consider as obvious things which would have to be addressed, and to also get some more advanced hints.  I now have a strong idea of how things might play out, and what I'll need to study to describe some things as best I can.  More thoughts are welcome.




Steve said:


> or, something that neutralizes the sword itself. Makes it temporarily weak, so that it can be broken, dull, or something along those lines.
> 
> Any way you go about this, you’ll need to be clever, because at its root, this is a pretty cliched trope in martial arts type stories (books or movies). So making it seem original and surprising is going to be a real trick.



I do already have a plan along these lines; though who knows about originality these days.




Blindside said:


> One option in the duel is to oppose the fighter with non-contact moves against the other fighter or to parry the blade rather than meet the other sword. It isn't impossible but just really really hard.
> 
> If you are looking to take advice from movies I like the bit where Li Mu Bai uses a stick against a sword. See at 4:15



I've actually been looking at stick fighting!  There's some _really_ interesting biomechanics happening which reveal the fundamental limitations of swords that I've already intuited. A sword like this one has specific requirements with facing and rotation which a stick does not.  There is also a lost technique with regards to sword fighting that might shed light on why there are some incredibly stupid-looking swords in history.  I might be able to invent something plausible and interesting for that.

That clip does show some of the things I'd be considering.  Hits to the flat of the blade, moving the blade (working against the wrist), stepping into large zones left by a poor swing, distractions, etc.




hoshin1600 said:


> Perhaps you might want to look at Aikido. I am thinking about this as if the sword was a jedi light Saber. The key to beating this guy would be to not fight the sword. Fight the man. Most often movies show lots of sword clashing but that is not realistic. You want the opponents sword to just go past, to evade it, then strike the wrists or body of your opponent. My karate instructor would always say to look at the person as a punching bag with a couple of appendages that are just in the way. In Aikido we evade the sword and cut the body.
> 
> Aikido also has techniques that control the person and steal the blade away.



I've kept Aikido in mind from the beginning; that and Judo.  I'll definitely have to look into known techniques for work against a sword or its wielder, thanks.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 24, 2021)

One on one dueling against a superior fighter armed with such a sword would be really tough. Your best bet would be fighting at range with a long spear, feinting one way to draw the parry then delivering a lethal thrust elsewhere. Note that unless your thrust is immediately lethal the swordsman might very well respond by cutting off the shaft of your spear, then running up to cut you in half before he dies.

If I were the swordsman, I would wear armor and a shield to make such tactics much less likely to succeed. With the cover of a shield, it would become trivially easy to charge in and cut through any defenses with my magic sword. It's theoretically possible for the defender to zone out and parry the swordsman hand or the flat of the blade, but it would be very difficult and require a fair amount of luck. (As the swordsman, my armor would include gauntlets to protect against being disarmed by a lucky hit to the hand.)

Mass attacks by a group offers a better chance of winning with an unseen attack from behind or the flank, although some of the group would probably die in the process.

You might want to check out Brandon Sanderson's _Stormlight Archive_ series, starting with _The Way of Kings_. In the world of those books there exist swords like the one you describe, known as Shard Blades. Possession of one immediately elevates the wielder to the nobility and makes them a potent military force. The balance to the swords is Shard Plate, magical powered armor which gives super strength and can at least temporarily resist the blows of a Shard Blade. Someone who possesses both is nearly unstoppable except by another Shard wielder, magical powers, or a lucky shot through the visor eye slots in the middle of a melee.


----------



## Buka (Mar 24, 2021)

To sell said novel....the plot, the swords, their blades, armor, magic, battles, wars etc mean next to nothing. 

Developing the characters so readers are intrigued and care about them is everything.


----------



## Syeed Ali (Mar 27, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> One on one dueling against a superior fighter armed with such a sword would be really tough. Your best bet would be fighting at range with a long spear, feinting one way to draw the parry then delivering a lethal thrust elsewhere. Note that unless your thrust is immediately lethal the swordsman might very well respond by cutting off the shaft of your spear, then running up to cut you in half before he dies.



Superior in arms and an excellent, but very restricted, skillset.

I had thought of such things with a spear, and allowing secondary weapons so that there could be a recovery and a few more moments of desperate fighting.

Elsewhere in this thread there was talk about relaying the real danger and speed of a fight.  I intend to do much of that elsewhere to build this duel, but reinforcement of the real danger during the actual duel would be nice.




Tony Dismukes said:


> If I were the swordsman, I would wear armor and a shield to make such tactics much less likely to succeed. With the cover of a shield, it would become trivially easy to charge in and cut through any defenses with my magic sword. It's theoretically possible for the defender to zone out and parry the swordsman hand or the flat of the blade, but it would be very difficult and require a fair amount of luck. (As the swordsman, my armor would include gauntlets to protect against being disarmed by a lucky hit to the hand.)



Pushing tactics are a vital part of the techniques the wielder understands, but he's abnormally detached about combat and wouldn't charge.  He doesn't care about a lot of basic defense and doesn't understand cover tactics.  I'll definitely have to think more about armor, but he won't have a shield and likely no helm.  Maybe I'll make the sword require two hands; I think that would give me some interesting mobility or technique constraints and partial-disarms.  I wonder what would happen if I wrote that it _required_ two hands to make it cut the way it does.

Regarding shields:  He's predictable about traditional tactics and would just slash through a shield (and its holder).  I intend to use a shield as a purely visual cover and as bait for that response.   He's strong enough that basic threats against his hands are meaningless, but he has not experienced any work against his joints or any significant unarmed combat.

What I have so far in my mind is the hero using a shield as cover and bait, sacrificing the shield, attempting with the weapon, then the plan B being sacrificing the weapon as another bait and going for a snatch (or disarm then using the secondary weapon).  I have much more than that to work with which I don't want to write here, but I have a few ways to get these ideas across to the reader:  Training and preparation with strategies, possibly some introspection leading up to or within the fight (not sure how, or if I want, to write that), and the actual events.

When I write, I think highly of my reader and want to reveal and address everything they think of.  I want everything to be satisfying and not leave a reader with "oh they should have done _x_".  Not that I expect more than a handful of participants, but also it's nice to learn when there are things I've thought of which haven't been mentioned here (yet?).




Tony Dismukes said:


> Mass attacks by a group offers a better chance of winning with an unseen attack from behind or the flank, although some of the group would probably die in the process.



I've wondered about this.  He's interacted with enough people over enough time that it feels appropriate that this happened.  I think I'll do some side-writing with a non-hero scene with this sort of thing just to see how it plays out on paper.  From there I'll decide if it actually makes it into the book in some form.




Tony Dismukes said:


> You might want to check out Brandon Sanderson's _Stormlight Archive_ series, starting with _The Way of Kings_. In the world of those books there exist swords like the one you describe, known as Shard Blades. Possession of one immediately elevates the wielder to the nobility and makes them a potent military force. The balance to the swords is Shard Plate, magical powered armor which gives super strength and can at least temporarily resist the blows of a Shard Blade. Someone who possesses both is nearly unstoppable except by another Shard wielder, magical powers, or a lucky shot through the visor eye slots in the middle of a melee.



Thanks for the reading recommendation.  I like that the more I ask around, the more near-but-inexact parallels people find.  It helps me affirm that I'm writing something unique, and perhaps interesting to those readers.




Buka said:


> To sell said novel....the plot, the swords, their blades, armor, magic, battles, wars etc mean next to nothing.
> 
> Developing the characters so readers are intrigued and care about them is everything.



An immortal who, at a young age, is repeatedly reborn into his killer only knows lust and never love.  With a photographic memory, can he ever let go of a betrayal?  Does _purpose_ heal a broken heart?  Does it matter that retelling a story is inexact, if it still teaches?  Which is more important, pursuing love or being a surrogate parent?  How would a man without children mentor a god?  Which is the better strategy, a single slim chance now, or possible multiple but even-slimmer chances later, and what if it was suicide either way?

These are fragments from characters; I love them and they are what compel me to write at all.  It pains me to threaten them, so I make them struggle hard against every bit of plot.  I think that understanding combat will improve the training and planning scenes and their character interactions from a less social angle, adding balance.  The plot makes sense* but needs more substance, and I hope that more physical and tactical things would help.

Ultimately, the story is driven toward conflict as its resolution, and that hard-won satisfaction has to be there.

-

* (I think the major plot arc makes sense but is weak later on, so who knows where rewrites will take it.)


----------



## donald1 (Mar 27, 2021)

Syeed Ali said:


> fight against a man with a sword that can cut anything


You don't need a sword that can cut through anything. A sword that can cut through the arm or hand of the person holding the 'all powerful sword' will suffice. Avoid their attack, and strike the hand/arm holding the sword. If they drop the sword, now you can get their sword.


----------

