# What is your policy on observing?



## turtle (Feb 14, 2008)

Just curious how folks set up their school in terms of letting parents/family members/curious strangers observe class. Do you have an observation area? Does your waiting room/area open onto the mat? Is your training floor visible from the street? 

The post in the general forum about reputation risk management got me thinking about the different school set-ups I've taught in and the varied polices I've encountered on class observation, everything from absolutely no observers to a very open policy to anyone can watch at any time. Both have obvious drawbacks. What's your policy? Are you happy with it? Has it changed over the years?


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## terryl965 (Feb 14, 2008)

I guess my policy is simple come watch and hopefully one day you'll join some type of Martial Arts.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 14, 2008)

Well, I don't run my own school, but I would be very suspicious of a school that refuses any sort of outside observation.  Especially of prospective students before they sign up and pay their money.  It implies something to hide.


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## theletch1 (Feb 14, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Well, I don't run my own school, but I would be very suspicious of a school that refuses any sort of outside observation. Especially of prospective students before they sign up and pay their money. It implies something to hide.


Bingo.  Our school has a gallery which looks onto the training area.  Anyone who enters can sit and watch.  If they are someone we haven't seen before then the instructor will approach them while the students run through the warm up.  As Empty Hands said, not allowing anyone to view is a big red flag for me.  If there are children involved and parents aren't allowed to view then my kids wouldn't train there.


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## Kacey (Feb 14, 2008)

It depends on the room (my class is in 2 different rooms at the Y, depending on the night).  In the dance studio (which started out as a racquetball court) there is an observation area above the studio, where people are welcome to sit and watch; there's really not room to sit in the studio during class.  In the aerobics studio, there's space to sit in the doorway and watch, or sit in the back of the room, and people are welcome to do either.


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## newGuy12 (Feb 14, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Well, I don't run my own school, but I would be very suspicious of a school that refuses any sort of outside observation.  Especially of prospective students before they sign up and pay their money.  It implies something to hide.



That's right.  Anyone can come to our school and watch a class, or, better yet, wear some loose clothing and take a free lesson!  We have nothing to hide, and will let people watch the practice, no problem at all.

haha -- and sometimes when I go to class, I see the parents sitting as the children practice.  I sometimes say, "Well, we have some people sitting here who need to go past this line and practice themselves, join us!", but they have not yet joined us.  They miss out, they could be exercising themselves!  No excuse!


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## turtle (Feb 15, 2008)

Keep on those parents NewGuy, I got more than a couple of parents to sign up for classes after they spent months or sometimes years of sitting and watching their kids. After all the time spent watching, they picked things up really quickly and I remember at least one who made it to black belt. Oh, and in one facility there was a weight room so we were able let parents use the weight machines while their kids took class, which really worked out well. The parents were as eager to come to the school as the kids.

Kacey, the set-up with a separate observation room above the class area sounds really good in terms of not having noise from parents chatting or younger brothers/sisters playing the waiting area.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 15, 2008)

When I taught I did not mind if someone watched.

My Taiji Sifu does not mind but likes to be asked if it is ok first

My Sanda sifu does not like it but if we are training outside near his or my office it is kind of hard to stop, so he does not make a big deal out of it.

My past Xingyi sifu did not allow it at all, he said it bothered his students.

My past Wing Chun Sifu didn't care as long as it is Siu lum tao, he does not let people watch the more advanced stuff.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 15, 2008)

As long as the person has a reason to be there, they should be allowed to watch.  If they are family, or even friend, or considering joining, etc.  If someone was just showing up to watch as they had nothing better to do, didn't know anyone and had no interest in joining, then I might object.  Never had that happen though, so not really a issue.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 15, 2008)

I think you have multiple options to work with here.  If you want someone to observe that is fine.  If you are teaching kid's then you are always going to have someone observing so that goes with the territory. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Now when I am teaching adults I truthfully put all my energy into those people who are there for the lesson.  Any time I spend with a prospective student would take away from the practitioner's that are there to learn. (that is really not fair)  I do not answer phone calls or pages during training as that time is set aside for the practitioner's.  So, if you want to come and check out a class you have to be willing to step onto the floor. (hey it is a free class so why not)  Also, this get's rid of people not really, really interested and if someone does take the free class and participates then they also know what to expect.  Most people seem very happy with this arrangement.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 15, 2008)

turtle said:


> The post in the general forum about reputation risk management got me thinking


What post was that?


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## turtle (Feb 15, 2008)

In this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59828

Brian Johns said: 



> Whether this story is true or not, this does point out the need for school owners to engage in "reputational risk management." A reputation takes a long time to build up and can be destroyed overnight, either due to a school's negligent/abusive practice or due to a vicious false story/rumor. In the case of a children's class, one way to manage reputation is to ensure that there are a fair number of adults/parents present. There are other ways to engage in reputational risk management.....many of you can figure out myriad ways to avoid this situation.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 15, 2008)

turtle said:


> In this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59828
> 
> Brian Johns said:


Thanks, Turtle.


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## jks9199 (Feb 16, 2008)

I generally don't have a problem with visitors watching class.  My instructor closed our class to new members and to observers (without his express permission) once for a year, because of the material he was teaching.  It's not that it's secret stuff, or questionable, it's that he didn't want to deal with new students as he taught some pretty advanced material.  OK, and I guess it is "secret" in that he didn't want it shared unless you paid the dues to learn it; unless you put in the years that it took to earn the chance to learn it.

I'll talk briefly with a prospective student during class, but I figure that if I spend time talking to them, I'm not teaching, and they aren't seeing what I'm like as I teach.


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## Perpetual White Belt (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm pretty open with people watching my classes.  It helps to get new students, plus as someone else pointed out it helps with liability issues.  Plus especially during the kids classes it helps the kids feel like their family is interested in what they're doing and is a little extra something to help them stay motivated.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 20, 2008)

If you are gonna teach kids, you HAVE to let the parents stick around and watch. For an hour class, they would (most of the time) rather sit there than go run errands or whatever, knowing they just have to be back in an hour.


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## tellner (Apr 20, 2008)

How could you expect someone to spend many hours and a lot of money for your services sight-unseen?


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## Twin Fist (Apr 20, 2008)

yeah Tellner, that is totally correct.

wait, what did I just say?

I feel dirty now...LOL


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## JustAVisitor (May 23, 2008)

We have visiting/observing hours, the rest of the time the school is opened to students who need to practice longer hours and need quietness. The visiting/observing hours are during all beginner and intermediate classes. 
During these periods, we usually have someone dedicated to welcome visitors and parents, present information, answer questions and offer necessities, also take care of subscriptions. The 'receptionists' are students in uniform and they have been instructed how to welcome visitors as well as how to address parental issues. There is a sitting area in each training room that can accomodate 4 persons. The sitting areas are close to the entrance/exit door.
Reception has been organized about 10 years ago as a mean to not disturb the cursus of classes. Before the instructor or an advanced student would spend time the visitors or parents at the expense of the students.
We welcome everyone to watch the classes. With time we have established some organizational procedures to address defiant visitors, trouble makers, invasive parents, gangs, other martial artists, and regular joes.


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## Tez3 (May 23, 2008)

JustAVisitor said:


> We have visiting/observing hours, the rest of the time the school is opened to students who need to practice longer hours and need quietness. The visiting/observing hours are during all beginner and intermediate classes.
> During these periods, we usually have someone dedicated to welcome visitors and parents, present information, answer questions and offer necessities, also take care of subscriptions. The 'receptionists' are students in uniform and they have been instructed how to welcome visitors as well as how to address parental issues. There is a sitting area in each training room that can accomodate 4 persons. The sitting areas are close to the entrance/exit door.
> Reception has been organized about 10 years ago as a mean to not disturb the cursus of classes. Before the instructor or an advanced student would spend time the visitors or parents at the expense of the students.
> We welcome everyone to watch the classes. With time we have established some organizational procedures to address defiant visitors, trouble makers, *invasive parents*, gangs, other martial artists, and regular joes.


 

Argh! the bane of my life! I agree totally that parents should be able to come and watch and understand why but oh dear if only they would return the understanding! Our seating area for people watching is right by the mats, there's nowhere else and it can be very distracting for the children to have parents gossiping and chatting away as if it were a social occasion put on for them, I've had parents walk onto the mats to tie up kids belts and give them drinks, parents shouting at their children for misbehaving as well as 'encouraging' them "Go on son kill im" to a four year old, nice!
I do have quite a few 'good' parents who try to quieten the noisy ones and explain about watching. I feel it's me that's at fault because they never do it to our chief instructor! I wrote some guidelines for the parents, things like not wearing jewellry, short nails etc and being quiet during lessons but it hasn't seemed to work. I do hush the parents as politely as I can but don't want to alienate them. My instructor is blunt he says tell them to shut up or get out but something stops me as I feel its fine for him to say that as it's his club but I can't lose him students!
We've never had a problem with anyone else coming in we don't get belligerent visitors. it wouldn't bother me if we did, they'd be easier to deal with than the parents!


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## tellner (May 23, 2008)

Tez, the nice thing about the belligerent violent ones is that they supply Teachable Moments for the students.

"Alright class, what did he do wrong?"
"He was talking when he should have been fighting. He telegraphed his punch and led with his right. He let his other hand drop."​"Anything else? Yes, Susie?"
"He didn'... uh he didn' tuck his head when he fell down."​"Very good, Susie! Now what lock am I using on him?"


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## Tez3 (May 23, 2008)

tellner said:


> Tez, the nice thing about the belligerent violent ones is that they supply Teachable Moments for the students.
> 
> 
> "Alright class, what did he do wrong?""He was talking when he should have been fighting. He telegraphed his punch and led with his right. He let his other hand drop."​
> "Anything else? Yes, Susie?""He didn'... uh he didn' tuck his head when he fell down."​"Very good, Susie! Now what lock am I using on him?"


 
That's cool!!
It would be nice if we did get a visitor like that but we are based in a military barracks so they have to get through the main gate first and the sentries have all the fun then lol!


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## tellner (May 23, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> That's cool!!
> It would be nice if we did get a visitor like that but we are based in a military barracks so they have to get through the main gate first and the sentries have all the fun then lol!



Awww. That's no fun. Tell 'em to save you some. After all "It's for the Children"....


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## tshadowchaser (May 23, 2008)

I have always been open to having people watch the classes.  Ill answer questions for them after class or if my son is teaching I may observe the observer.  What I have found a few times is an experienced martial artist who dose not know my system or me and is curious but dose not what to introduce himself right away for one reason or another.

I have been dressed in my street cloths a few times , when my son was teaching, and sat with visitors to hear what they had to say. Sometimes they make some observations that have by passed your perception because you are teaching all the time.


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## pete (May 29, 2008)

Parents, Grandparents, etc are always welcome and encouraged to watch any class, any time. 

Students (or potential students) who might be interested are not allowed on the floor to observe, but they can pay by the class. 
Kids $10, Adults $14. Sign the waiver and participate. It kinda shows you are interested and not just wasting everybody's time...

pete


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## terryl965 (May 29, 2008)

pete said:


> Parents, Grandparents, etc are always welcome and encouraged to watch any class, any time.
> 
> Students (or potential students) who might be interested are not allowed on the floor to observe, but they can pay by the class.
> Kids $10, Adults $14. Sign the waiver and participate. It kinda shows you are interested and not just wasting everybody's time...
> ...


 

Pete don't you feel by not letting people stay and watch, you might be hurting your student base?


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## pete (May 29, 2008)

Maybe, but for every potentially 'good' student that walks away are probably 3 that I am happy that they did walk away, because they aren't serious about it to begin with.  Just ask yourself: why would you not pay a nominal price and experience a class with no strings attached.  

in fact, my students can go on indefinitely simply paying class by class.  I have no contracts, membership fees, or monthly rates.  but on the other hand, my wife and i teach all the classes ourselves, so we do not want to waste our time with freddy the freeloader or curious george~

ask me about our 90% retention rates~

pete


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## IcemanSK (May 29, 2008)

I encourage parents to stay & watch class. Most do, but some don't because it distracts their child. I teach in a church building. As part of my teaching there (as a member of the church who runs a program there) I had to go through 3 hours of sexual abuse awareness training for the church's insurance. Because of this, I'm very conscience of how I relate to my students. Part of that is having an adult/student helper (who is female) with me and the kids at all times. For the concerns about these issues, I encourage & welcome parents always. I don't want to make it sound like I paranoid. I'm just quite aware of this issue.

Due to when my school is & how it's arranged, walk-ins/vistors aren't much of an issue. Usually, they are folks looking for something else in the church, or other folks from the church just passin' thru on there way somewhere. We smile, help them if they are lost, & then keep trainin.


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## kidswarrior (May 29, 2008)

pete said:


> Maybe, but for every potentially 'good' student that walks away are probably 3 that I am happy that they did walk away, because they aren't serious about it to begin with.  Just ask yourself: why would you not pay a nominal price and experience a class with no strings attached.
> 
> in fact, my students can go on indefinitely simply paying class by class.  I have no contracts, membership fees, or monthly rates.  but on the other hand, my wife and i teach all the classes ourselves, so we do not want to waste our time with freddy the freeloader or curious george~
> 
> ...


Definitely food for thought. Never considered dong it that way, but it makes sense.


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## Lynne (Jun 1, 2008)

Our school has two floors.  The bottom floor has windows which face the outside sidewalk and street.  Very smart.  We often have onlookers.  On Saturday mornings especially, shoppers are strolling along and will watch from the outside.  During the weekday evenings, we get a lot of teens looking in.  There are street festivals a few times a year and we always have a demonstration in the street as well as cookies/pastries for sell (to help with our annual trip to Cardiff, Wales).  We have 100's of onlookers during the demonstrations and at the windows watching our classes.

Anyone is welcome to come in and observe our classes.  We have bleachers set up in the downstairs training area as well as the upstairs area.  The downstairs area has a half wall (about a yard high or so) around with two entrances for students.  The upstairs area is a hardwood floor (ouch by the way - knuckle pushups are just a blast) and we have that cordoned off with ropes.

People may try out at anytime.  If they are not sure TSD is for them, I believe they are allowed to try out a second time, even a third.  I think that's a great idea.

I watched my daughter's classes for 9 months and saw how much fun everyone was having, despite the pain, lol.  I wanted to try out badly but couldn't muster the courage until the school had buddy week.  My daughter asked me to come to buddy week.  It was tough but I loved it.  And I've never looked back.  If I hadn't observed the classes, I might not have ever tried out.  

I would have never let my daughter take classes if I couldn't observe what was going on.  She's my child and I'm responsible for her safety and well-being.

Some observers are rude.  You know, like using cellphones during testing (there is nothing like being asked to do a combination in Korean, trying to mentally translate it in five seconds before Master R says, "ONE!", then hearing a cellphone go "deedly-deedly-do-ding" and a "hello"), talking so loud we can't hear the instructors during class.  Master R has made comments/requests in the school newsletters about respecting students and training by being quiet.  I think that's helped.

If noise issues are a worry, a visible sign that says, "Please turn off you cellphones and remain quiet during student training" would be a tremendous help.


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## CrimsonPhoenix (Jun 2, 2008)

I train in one of the smaller buildings in a church, so unfortunately we don't have an observation room or anything. My instructors welcome parents, interested students and other visitors to sit on the side and watch for as long as they want. Usually we have just a few parents that stay seeing as our class is from 6:30-8:30 at night and there's hardly any kids tagging along with them. So far we really haven't had any trouble with the visitors being distracting. Everyone is really nice and quiet too. I like it. 

Since we moved to the side building, we haven't gotten as many curious onlookers who were going somewhere else in the church, spotted our class and came over to watch. It got a little annoying when they came up to the door and pointed at the funny looking people in white doing drills and forms and whatnot.



Lynne said:


> Some observers are rude. You know, like using cellphones during testing (there is nothing like being asked to do a combination in Korean, trying to mentally translate it in five seconds before Master R says, "ONE!", then hearing a cellphone go "deedly-deedly-do-ding" and a "hello"), talking so loud we can't hear the instructors during class. Master R has made comments/requests in the school newsletters about respecting students and training by being quiet. I think that's helped.


 
We've had that happen a couple times, though not from who you would think. It would be in the middle of something with the advanced belts and we would really be getting into it and then a really loud custom ringtone would go off and one of the instructors would have to run over and turn off their cell phone. :lol: It was a funny respite from the seriousness of it all. Actually I think it happened when there was a visiting instructor and it was his phone...


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## Grenadier (Jun 3, 2008)

Visitors: Certainly welcome to come on in, watch a class or three, and have a chat with one of the instructors afterwards.  These are a significant source of potential students, and you want them to feel welcome.  

However, there are some who just come in, and have absolutely no intention of joining, and are there to simply strut their stuff.  I'll still be polite to them, and offer them a chance to join, but I'm not going to bend over backwards to bring them in.  We've had several interesting folks like this come in, and if you have your own school, you probably already know of the types of characters to which I am referring!  

Parents / family / associates of the students: Certainly always welcome to come and watch, as long as they keep relatively quiet, and don't interfere with classes.  I don't tell them how to raise their kids, so I'd expect them to not attempt to teach my classes for me.


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## PEP-REP (Jun 6, 2008)

Through the years we have have had various policies on watching class. We have different setups at different locations based on size of the school. Generally we do not encourage watching class it causes a distraction for the students in the class. We have certian times that parents are welcome into the training area to view the progress of the children. At all other times parent have the ability to see there children but or schools are setup that we have the main training gym with a smaller training room off the main gym. there is always windows from the smaller gym looking into the larger gym but parents must stay in waiting area so there is limited viewing of the class going on. and by no means is there a distubance from the "lobby" disrubting the class. Basically it is how you sell your policy to the parents. 

If it is an adult comes in give them a free trial program you can't learn anything by watching. you have to try it out. Any adult that wants to watch a class is lacking the confidence to try the class and needs to be encouraged to get in there and particpate.

Students come to a school for structure and discipline. By having rules and sticking to them and explaining them to the parents in a positive light they will understand them and will agree with them.

To teach a class of 20 5-9 year olds with 10 parents sitting there watching is not giving a good service there is no way to have them all stay focused on the teaching and not waiving to mom and dad. The parents cause a distraction.

just my experience


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## pete (Jun 6, 2008)

PEP-REP said:


> Students come to a school for structure and discipline. By having rules and sticking to them and explaining them to the parents in a positive light they will understand them and will agree with them.
> 
> To teach a class of 20 5-9 year olds with 10 parents sitting there watching is not giving a good service there is no way to have them all stay focused on the teaching and not waiving to mom and dad. The parents cause a distraction.
> 
> just my experience


depends on the philosophy and direction of YOUR school.  Some might feel youngsters of today may have TOO MUCH structure and discipline, and may FOREGO rules & regulations for a more open/respectful atmosphere.

in these cases, students will learn to deal with distractions rather than avoidance.  I always let parents view classes, but hold the students responsible for their class time. yes, with 5-9 year olds.

pete


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## PEP-REP (Jun 6, 2008)

pete said:


> depends on the philosophy and direction of YOUR school. Some might feel youngsters of today may have TOO MUCH structure and discipline, and may FOREGO rules & regulations for a more open/respectful atmosphere.
> 
> in these cases, students will learn to deal with distractions rather than avoidance. I always let parents view classes, but hold the students responsible for their class time. yes, with 5-9 year olds.
> 
> pete


 
I would have to respectfully disagree with you that the majority of parents feel kids have to much discipline today. The number one thing members / parents ask for in our schools is Discipline. 

Now our policy of not having an open view of the class goes much deeper than just not wanting them to learn. We use the reasons I stated above to have agrrement from the parents on the topics. We create alot of excitement with our promotion testing because that is the time all the parents come in to the training room and view the students up close. Promotion testing in our schools Is a very large event with a celebration atmosphere. The parents look forward to seeing the growth of there children. When they watch on a daily basis the growth is not a noticable as when they see them (up close) every 6-8 weeks (depending on student). 

similar to a relative saying "oh john you have got so big since the lat time I saw you" the parents can really see an improvement of their children and then are much more satisfied. Our research over 20 years have shown this to be true and that is why we keep the policy as it is.

respectfully

Glenn


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## pete (Jun 6, 2008)

feel free to disagree glenn... notice i said SOME might feel that way, which allows for the fact that OTHERS may not.  This philosophical difference will ultimately play out in WHICH students (and parents) enroll in a school like ours, and WHICH end up in yours. 

seems like our differences would help the CONSUMER make their CHOICES.

pete


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## PEP-REP (Jun 7, 2008)

pete said:


> feel free to disagree glenn... notice i said SOME might feel that way, which allows for the fact that OTHERS may not. This philosophical difference will ultimately play out in WHICH students (and parents) enroll in a school like ours, and WHICH end up in yours.
> 
> seems like our differences would help the CONSUMER make their CHOICES.
> 
> pete


 
I agree and that is the nice thing about a free society.. lol and no matter what the policy is it is how the instructor handles the policy that makes it work or not..

Glenn


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## Drac (Jun 7, 2008)

Anyone is welcome to come in and observe our classes...


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