# Bully instructors



## Flea (Feb 17, 2011)

I found this rather chilling ...

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In the interest of full disclosure, I could only watch the first couple of minutes.  It just made me sick and I had to turn it off.  How common is this sort of thing?  We all like to say that the arts teach a person character and humility, but of course anything that involves power is going to attract its share of dolts.

Personally, I can happily say that I've only ever encountered one bully in my vast 2+ years of MA experience.  He was considerate enough to be rude and arrogant over the phone, thus saving me the trip.  Now _that's_ customer service.  :uhyeah:


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## Benevolentbob (Feb 17, 2011)

I don't know if I missed something but I didn't really see the instructor bullying anyone. He was certainly a tad bit rough in some places but I've seen randori be just as rough if not rougher on occasion. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who does not practice Aikido.


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## Big Don (Feb 17, 2011)

I didn't see bullying either, what I saw was a series of techniques demonstrated on people who knew how to react to the techniques in such a way not to be seriously hurt.
Some things, you have to feel to understand...


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## elder999 (Feb 17, 2011)

Flea said:


> I found this rather chilling ...
> 
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, I could only watch the first couple of minutes. It just made me sick and I had to turn it off. How common is this sort of thing? We all like to say that the arts teach a person character and humility, but of course anything that involves power is going to attract its share of dolts.


 
Rather common for aikido or jujutsu, not bullying, not doltish..............and_ not for you_.


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## Mike Hamer (Feb 17, 2011)

Agreed, no bullying here.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 17, 2011)

elder999 said:


> Rather common for aikido or jujutsu, not bullying, not doltish..............and_ not for you_.



I have to agree. This is perfectly normal to me, and common for traditional Japanese martial arts like jujutsu and ninjutsu.

I've been uke myself on several occasions, and this is kind of the point. First, the sensei has to demonstrate for the class how to do something (hence the exaplanations and repeated movements), second, the uke learns valuable lessons because he feels what the sensei is trying to convey. I've been treated like that and worse. It goes with the territory, regardless of whether the sensei is brutal or gentle.

The uke also knows how to move to keep from damaging himself (which is why you see him jumping around a lot) and the sensei knows how far he can go with the uke. He will generally not ask newbies for uke duty because they don't know how to move and he doesn't know their physiology.

Aaron is right, in that this is probably not something for you.
There is no bullying here and I certainly would not think anything special of being treated like that.


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## seasoned (Feb 17, 2011)

No different then in striking arts. Realistic, is key to learning. I would hate it when called up in front of class. But, the power and control demonstrated, was poetry in motion. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




+1 more, "no bullying here".


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## elder999 (Feb 17, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> There is no bullying here and I certainly would not think anything special of being treated like that.


 
Been really, _really_ grateful on occasion, actually.....

Also, take note of how quicly and eagerly the uke comes back for more....


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## K-man (Feb 17, 2011)

Sorry Flea. I'm with the others. Aikido is a very effective martial art despite what some on this forum think. The trouble is, not enough people have seen effective aikido. Note that Uke is jumping all over the place to try and avoid the locks and holds but once he taps, it finishes. Also, Uke is not a beginner. He understands what is happening.   Anyone seeing kyokushin for the first time would probably say the same thing. Back in 1970 I walked into a dojo where the senior guys were beating the absolute be$e@s out of the new guys. I turned on my heel and didn't look again for 10 years unfortunately. There was blood everywhere.

We see so much crap aikido that it is actually refreshing to see some good stuff. Most aikido schools don't practise against resistance. In fact the students are told, "Go with it, don't resist". Well, we train against total resistance and you have to do the technique 100% right or it won't work. There is nothing worse than thinking your MA will protect you in a nasty situation and you get you **** whipped by a street thug. :asian:


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## Chris Parker (Feb 17, 2011)

Yep, me too.

There was no "bullying" here, what I saw was someone who is determined to know that the techniques are powerful and viable, and wants the students to understand that as well. I also saw a very impressive degree of control, most of those locks are designed to completely destroy intricate joints like the wrist, and Kazuo Chiba Sensei there was taking things to a high level without ever being in danger of stepping over the line in to damaging actions. By this reckoning, I'd probably be considered a "bully" for some of my teaching methods as well, honestly (although I don't have any students at the level that I could take it to that degree, although I do tend to take them further than they think they can go. Not every class, but on occasion it's quite beneficial for them to realise that their personal limits are a lot further than they think).


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 17, 2011)

I agree with all the above posts. Serious martial arts practice requires there be some degree of risk of injury. No body is going over board here in my eyes.

Flea, I'm curious as to what you found to be inappropriate with this instructor?


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## harlan (Feb 17, 2011)

Ditto. I have 'heard' of certain teachers that enjoy damaging students, but didn't see that here. Saw control.

It actually 'feels' wonderful to train like that with a master. You can feel that they can feel your limits.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 17, 2011)

Thank goodness most people are reasonable here..

Martial Arts are a physical art.

this was good solid application, done with a group of people who know what to expect.
Its not like he took a group of beginners and beat the crap out of them.
I wish all martial arts schools showed more realism, ramped up from light at beginning level to intense at the higher levels. unfortunately we have to many schools filling people with unrealistic expectations by being all touchy feely worried about hurting people so they dont actually apply anything ever except a smile..... no thanks


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## Flea (Feb 17, 2011)

Thanks for your perspectives everyone.

I guess it's just outside of my experience; I've never seen that level of force applied and _held_ for more than a moment.  

It is certainly an eloquent demonstration of how effective any MA can be.  I do think that learning can take place with less volume though, but clearly the uke is used to it and no one else seems to object either.  

But you're right Elder, it's not for me.  I'm okay with that - I don't think it makes me a wimp.  It means that I have a different learning style from you, and perhaps I train with a different set of priorities.  To each their own.


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## Featherstone (Feb 17, 2011)

The first time I stepped into an Aikido school I was 17. I was bigger then the instructor and he made a point of throwing me around for my "introduction" class. Was my first time doing something that wasnt a hard block strike combo with a kick. I rather enjoyed it, hehe.


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## shesulsa (Feb 17, 2011)

These joint locks are known as "contain and control" techniques. They are often difficult to apply, especially with a resistant opponent.

Learning them involves being uke.  

Uke is tapping, flip-falling, etcetera to ensure he does not get damaged.

Pain and damage are two different things and it is important to feel a properly applied technique.  This uke appears to be advanced enough to take it.

It is shocking to some people to see footage like this, but I agree - no bullying here - a good lesson in properly applied arm locks.  Notice the slack is taken out of the wrist and the arm is turned like a faucet to open the elbow up just so the lock can be applied VERY effectively.

This is demonstrated over and over and over again, but it's necessary to have really good technique.

And as Elder sez and you agree - not for you.  

It is SO IMPORTANT to find the style that suits YOUR training needs/desires/comfort level.

Good training to you, Flea.


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 17, 2011)

Flea, there's a key point you might have missed. You mentioned how shocked you were to see the technique _held_ for so long.

Each time the student skittered away, the pressure was relieved. Each time the student tapped, the instructor eased off on the pressure (you can tell because the student stopped tapping).

I'm with the others. This is normal, even necessary - especially in arts like aikido where getting the lock right is vital.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 17, 2011)

When I was maybe 18 or 19, I attended an Aikido class in Dublin, under an instructor who is well known in the area. They trained so softly that it ceased to be a Martial Art and became a dance in my opinion. I went to 2 or three classes before I stoppedmoving voluntarily for the senior students. They thought I was being an ***, and to a degree, I was, but I wanted to feel th technique. In throws like Sumeotoshi and Iriminage, my balance wasn't being broken. When having controls like Hijishime (shown in the vidoe) and Sankajo being put on me, they were in fear of hurting me. Then I realized the problem, there was very little Ukemiwaza taught or practised in the class, so most of the students didn't know how to recieve techniques. It was disappointing! Eventually I studied Hapkido under Massan Ghorbani in Bray and I definately wasn't disappointed!

Chiba Sensei is one of the Aikido greats. It would be any Aikidoka's dream to uke for him.


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## B'Dragon (Feb 17, 2011)

I have trained as uke with Chibe Sensei. And he is a great, hard Aikdoka. Not soft aikido at all. While the techniques in the video seem hard and they were, he knew his uke very well and knew what his ability to receive the technique was. Believe me with Sensei there was no ego involved.

Chiba Sensei is hard on the outside and a careing heart on the inside. When he trained with me he took me right to my limit, but not over. Painful yes, but wondeful at the same time. Getting thrown by Sensei was like entering a black hole; you attacked and then you were on the mat (usually face down!). But nothing broken. I seen him go out of his way not to hurt people, specially then they took bad ukemi. 

But he is hard, wonderful and insiteful all at the same time. I have one of his pictures on my wall from a summer week long seminar I went to years ago. A very treasured memory.

Martial Arts is a mountain with my paths leading to the top.

May you train well. Peace.


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## Brandon Fisher (Feb 17, 2011)

I agree no bullying at all just superior technique with superior uke's to handle that level of application.


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## Flea (Feb 17, 2011)

bushidomartialarts said:


> Flea, there's a key point you might have missed. You mentioned how shocked you were to see the technique _held_ for so long.
> 
> Each time the student skittered away, the pressure was relieved. Each time the student tapped, the instructor eased off on the pressure (you can tell because the student stopped tapping).



That went under my radar.  To be quite honest, it still is.  But I'm willing to take your word on it.  :asian:


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## Master Dan (Feb 17, 2011)

Big Don said:


> I didn't see bullying either, what I saw was a series of techniques demonstrated on people who knew how to react to the techniques in such a way not to be seriously hurt.
> Some things, you have to feel to understand...


 
I think Fle has her personal issues that do not relate to reality which are feminist in basis. I has some qusi feminist quasi feminist bb come into my space to teach sd and it was truly sad


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## Kittan Bachika (Feb 17, 2011)

I have seen bullies. This instructor is not a bully. Just old school. He is demonstrating the techniques in a proper manner so his students can learn. 

The problem is that a lot of people mistake hard training as bullying because it seems so rough and the only thing they have to compare it to is the mcdojo.


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## elder999 (Feb 17, 2011)

Flea said:


> But you're right Elder, it's not for me. I'm okay with that - I don't think it makes me a wimp. It means that I have a different learning style from you, and perhaps I train with a different set of priorities. To each their own.


 
Didn't mean to imply for a minute that it did make you a wimp, Flea. 

Not so sure that it means you have a different learning style than I do, as much as it means that you're _learning a different style_ than I am. (See what I did there? :lfao: )


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## jks9199 (Feb 17, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> I think Fle has her personal issues that do not relate to reality which are feminist in basis. I has some qusi feminist quasi feminist bb come into my space to teach sd and it was truly sad



Flea has openly admitted having some personal issues.  I don't think they fed her concern here.  I can see where a person who is unfamiliar with this sort of training would look at it and see it as the uke being brutalized, especially since we've been conditioned to see a person hopping and squirming around as being in significant pain.

There are unique demands for training women in self defense.  And self defense is not the same as martial arts.  Sure, there are plenty of folks out there who teach utter crap as self defense -- but the fact that someone is or is not a female or a feminist doesn't influence that.



elder999 said:


> Didn't mean to imply for a minute that it did make you a wimp, Flea.
> 
> Not so sure that it means you have a different learning style than I do, as much as it means that you're _learning a different style_ than I am. (See what I did there? :lfao: )




Nicely done!  We all should find the style and the training style that fits both our personalities and our needs and goals in training.


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## Tanaka (Feb 18, 2011)

Lol if you think that is bullying or brutal. You must never have trained under a traditional Japanese teacher. That is perfectly normal in that video.


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## shesulsa (Feb 18, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> I think Fle has her personal issues that do not relate to reality which are feminist in basis. I has some qusi feminist quasi feminist bb come into my space to teach sd and it was truly sad



I really don't think you're going to get very far - at least not under the radar - by insulting other members of the board.  If you think her reaction is not "related to reality" and "feminist in basis" you should see the eyes of some mothers when I have my own son diveroll over a sword or have their children do jumping breakfalls.  Oh, and the dads when their daughters have to grapple a *boy*?  Now THAT'S not living in reality and feminist in nature.

Please - refrain from judgement, especially when someone has never seen this level of training.  This is a fine opportunity to share, to explore, to teach and to learn.  I hope you have had the chance to do every one of those here on MartialTalk.


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## Flea (Feb 18, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Flea has openly admitted having some personal issues.  I don't think they fed her concern here.
> 
> 
> There are unique demands for training women in self defense.  And self defense is not the same as martial arts.  Sure, there are plenty of folks out there who teach utter crap as self defense -- but the fact that someone is or is not a female or a feminist doesn't influence that.



Seriously!  _Everyone_ has personal issues.  Even Chiba Sensei has personal issues.  That argument has zero credibility if you're trying to discredit me or anyone else.  As for the feminism thing, I doubt Master Dan really understands feminism.  Honestly, it's not worth dignifying so I'm not going to go there.  I'm also not going to have this thread sidetracked into women/men/SD/feminism bashing either if I can help it.

I posed a question on a subject I knew even less about than I thought I did, and so far I've been happy to be corrected.  If we can keep it respectful, I'm happy to continue the conversation.  Otherwise ... ooh, look!  It's a bright shiny object!  :lol:


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## Blade96 (Feb 18, 2011)

Flea said:


> Thanks for your perspectives everyone.
> 
> I guess it's just outside of my experience; I've never seen that level of force applied and _held_ for more than a moment.
> 
> ...



I havent seen a whole lot of aikido either. I knew it was aikido because they were wearing hakama's.  And I knew aikidokas fall down a lot   and i know what aikido teaches. But havent seen a whole lot of it  which is probably why my first reaction was, Wtf is he tryin to do, break his arm?


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 18, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> I havent seen a whole lot of aikido either. I knew it was aikido because they were wearing hakama's.  And I knew aikidokas fall down a lot   and i know what aikido teaches. But havent seen a whole lot of it  which is probably why my first reaction was, Wtf is he tryin to do, break his arm?



That is really like saying you knew a car was a 74 mustang because they have wheels and this car has wheels too. 

Many traditional JMA have their practicioners wearing hakama. The locks etc are also very common in traditional jujutsu systems. The clip could have easily been of any of several dozen of jujutsu systems. Like daito ryu aikijujutsu for example:

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## Chris Parker (Feb 18, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> I havent seen a whole lot of aikido either. I knew it was aikido because they were wearing hakama's. And I knew aikidokas fall down a lot  and i know what aikido teaches. But havent seen a whole lot of it which is probably why my first reaction was, *Wtf is he tryin to do, break his arm?*


 
As Bruno said, many systems, particularly the traditional ones, wear hakama. But, in reference to the bolded section, uh, yes. Yes he was. That's kinda the point of the technique.

To clarify, as he obviously was controlling it to the point where he wasn't breaking the arm, the way things have to be trained is with the mindset of their application. When I perform something in training, my intention is for it to do it's intended job. Last week I taught a technique using a hanbo called Koshi Ori, which translates as "Break the Hip". So, when I went through the kata with my students, I made no bones about the fact that that is the aim of the technique. In fact, I went to pains to point out that the weapon we are currently focusing on (the hanbo, a three foot stick) is a bone-breaker. That's it's entire job, as far as we're concerned.

In this particular kata, it involves levering the stick between the opponents arm and lower back in order to take them down onto their back, and following them down to the ground. I pointed out that the initial movement is not the "breaking of the hip" part, it's when they land (with their hip) on the stick on the ground. And I made sure everyone took it to that point, in order to get a feel for how the technique works... but I had them do it slowly, and gently, for safety, mainly due to the relative inexperience of the group. However, if I had not taken the kata through the way it was designed to work, as I didn't want to "hurt" my students and training partners, and not had the intention of having the kata work the way it was designed to, I might as well have gotten two much smaller sticks and started knitting, as that would have had as much relation to the art.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 18, 2011)

One of the major points for my sensei is that if we demonstrate a lock during kata, we have to take it to the point where the difference between pain and injury is made, and demonstrate that we have control over the lock and the person.

In a way, and especially if the lock is used to move the other person, the only reason the arm doesn't break is because we have enough control and decide not to go beyond that. This requires a great deal of concentration, as well as knowing your partner. This is also why locks are typically set gradually instead of applied with a snap.

To build in a safety margin and not take the lock to that level, would mean not learning control. It would require the other person just going along for the sake of the exercise, and in effect go against the entire reason you are standing there on that mat.


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 18, 2011)

Just to take it right back to the first post for a second, as a student who acts as Uke the main thing I got from that clip (can't watch youtube at work so just got a chance to see it) was just how bad my own Ukemi is... I mean to use education as a metaphor, all of the Ukes in the clip are at a university level and in comparison I'm just out of kindergarten... I have no doubts whatsoever that if my instructor threw me around like that it would end with breaks or worse not because he is a bully but because I don't yet have the appropriate skill to move correctly with it 

That being said watching that clip has just reconfirmed in my own mind the desire to learn Aikido down the track once I gain enough skill at my current art. The way the energy is harmonized is amazing and looks so effortless!


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## Chris Parker (Feb 18, 2011)

Er, just to confirm what Supra has just said....

He broke my toe once. That was due, mainly, to his reaction to a particular shoulder-lock that I was using to take him down at one point, and his reaction started to move in a way that would result in a damaged, or broken elbow. So I pulled him in closer, in order to control him and not break his arm, and he landed on my toe and it broke. And that really comes down to differing levels of experience (as Uke) lending itself to different degrees of training intensity. I had a student once ask about training more intensely (they were very new, and just getting a handle on one or two basic actions), and I pointed out that they just weren't ready for it. To demonstrate, I attacked. Seriously. Fast. Hard. But controlled. They got what I meant by that then....


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 18, 2011)

I meant my arm/shoulder/face  But yeah... one of the first times acting as Uke and I end up breaking Sensei's toe because I panicked and forgot the basics.... not the proudest moment in my MA training I must say

Overall though, it's been a good thread! Lots of good responses showing a range of attitudes to what's appropriate when training. Has been highly informational for me and I hope for Flea as well. Thanks for posting the clip Flea


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## jthomas1600 (Feb 18, 2011)

At the TKD school I go to we do some joint locks and some throws as part of our SD curriculum. I wish we trained a little harder/tougher like this. One of the previous posters mentioned going to a school and just standing there when people were trying throws. I do this some times too. The other students are like "why isn't my magic working?". 

What I really wanted to say though is that for students who practice in this kind of a school it must really go a long way towards developing trust and respect between the instructor and the students. For those of you who have trained in different schools with a variety of intensity levels do you find that to be true?


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## dancingalone (Feb 18, 2011)

jthomas1600 said:


> What I really wanted to say though is that for students who practice in this kind of a school it must really go a long way towards developing trust and respect between the instructor and the students. For those of you who have trained in different schools with a variety of intensity levels do you find that to be true?



Absolutely.  But it's not necessarily just between the teacher and students - you build up a sense of trust and closeness to any of your partners since you are literally putting your health on the line playing uke for each other, trusting in them to be sensitive and in control enough to back off right when you reach the edge between pain and injury.  For this reason, you'll usually never see beginners paired up with each other - they're placed with a senior student instead.


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## Kacey (Feb 18, 2011)

Flea, I understand why you had a concern when you saw this without the background to understand what was going on - like other respondents, I would say that this was a beautiful demonstration of controlled technique.  The only way to truly understand how a lock or control works is to have it done to you to the point where you can feel what *can* happen if it goes farther, which is the way we practice them as well, once the student reaches the point that s/he can do the move correctly without damaging his/her partner.  Until the instructor is sure that the student can do the move correctly, and is with a partner who can respond correctly, locks and controls are practiced slowly and with light pressure - the speed and pressure are increased as the students learn the techniques.


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## Balrog (Feb 18, 2011)

Add me to the list of those who don't see bullying.  Yeah, he's a hardliner, but he's demonstrating techniques to advanced students using an advanced student as his partner.  And from what I can tell, he's demonstrating from different angles so that the students can see how the technique is applied and they can also see the immediate result of the technique.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 18, 2011)

Bullying?  Did I miss something?  Seemed pretty nice to me.  I did not see anything disrespectful or over the line.


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 18, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Absolutely. But it's not necessarily just between the teacher and students - you build up a sense of trust and closeness to any of your partners since you are literally putting your health on the line playing uke for each other, trusting in them to be sensitive and in control enough to back off right when you reach the edge between pain and injury. *For this reason, you'll usually never see beginners paired up with each other - they're placed with a senior student instead*.


 
See I thought (and not discounting what you said at all) that it was because the senior students were epected to have base mechanics of the art right already. When I partner up with someone of equal rank the attacking intensity is at one level, when with a senior it's different and when with a new student it's another again. I saw that as the ability of the Uke to throw the correct punch or attack with the appropriate mindset of the technique. Things like a straight punch with a vertical fist from someone who is more experienced is usally actually straight and to target whereas with a beginner it can be thrown as a cross and the targetting may be off. By partnering the new guys with seniors you allow to a degree a learning and teaching system whereby the juniors can learn from their more experienced partners who are learning the more intricate details of the tech, thereby allowing the Sensei to offer advice and refine techs for the seniors. 

Just my take on it, please correct me if I'm wrong


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## mook jong man (Feb 18, 2011)

He's not a bully.



Now this is a bully


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## Flea (Feb 19, 2011)

Yeah, I never understood the appeal of that show at all.  Once I came across a video of his on Stumble where showed how to make cream of broccoli soup, and I kept waiting for him to have a big blowout.  It was surreal to see him take a spoonful and smile.


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## dancingalone (Feb 19, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> See I thought (and not discounting what you said at all) that it was because the senior students were epected to have base mechanics of the art right already. When I partner up with someone of equal rank the attacking intensity is at one level, when with a senior it's different and when with a new student it's another again. I saw that as the ability of the Uke to throw the correct punch or attack with the appropriate mindset of the technique. Things like a straight punch with a vertical fist from someone who is more experienced is usally actually straight and to target whereas with a beginner it can be thrown as a cross and the targetting may be off. By partnering the new guys with seniors you allow to a degree a learning and teaching system whereby the juniors can learn from their more experienced partners who are learning the more intricate details of the tech, thereby allowing the Sensei to offer advice and refine techs for the seniors.
> 
> Just my take on it, please correct me if I'm wrong



That, too.


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## Steve (Feb 19, 2011)

Flea said:


> Thanks for your perspectives everyone.
> 
> I guess it's just outside of my experience; I've never seen that level of force applied and _held_ for more than a moment.
> 
> ...


Not if you expect to learn the technique beyond a cerebral, technical level.  Transferring knowledge to application means developing the timing and context necessary to be able to do something outside of a perfect simulation.  A technique either works or it doesn't.  There's no almost. And if people aren't being realistic about things, you might go years learning techniques that don't work.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 19, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> He's not a bully.
> 
> 
> 
> Now this is a bully



No, that's just passion..........if she hadn't been an incompetent and screwed up the souffle, she wouldn't be getting yelled at!


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 19, 2011)

sgtmac_46 said:


> No, that's just passion..........if she hadn't been an incompetent and screwed up the souffle, she wouldn't be getting yelled at!



I was hesitant to react to that picture, but you beat me to it 
The only way to run a kitchen is a dictatorship. Kind of like the military.
He demands perfection and does not accept anything less.
If he did, he would not be a 3 star chef.

I'm surprised noone mentioned this guy yet 

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## Bruno@MT (Feb 19, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Not if you expect to learn the technique beyond a cerebral, technical level.  Transferring knowledge to application means developing the timing and context necessary to be able to do something outside of a perfect simulation.  A technique either works or it doesn't.  There's no almost. And if people aren't being realistic about things, you might go years learning techniques that don't work.



What he said.


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## K831 (Feb 19, 2011)

When I think of bullying I think of someone negatively enforcing their will or power on someone else... 

That said, bullying isn't about the amount of roughness or pain involved, it's more about how all parties involved feel about it. 

I would say, if the uke in this clip didn't want to be uke, and felt pressured or manipulated into being demonstrated on, then sure it's bullying. (I don't think that's the case, just saying). 

On the other hand, the instructor could have been much more aggressive, and so long as the uke is ok with it, then no bullying. 

As an example, in my Kenpo class, when the instructor demonstrates, you often end up in a heap. He hits really really hard, to demonstrate mechanics, timing etc, and to illustrate the while many of the little strikes in kenpo are viewed as "slaps" they will straight drop the biggest guy if the mechanics are correct. As others have mentioned, this has to be felt to be believed and understood. I have learned to hit hard precisely because I have been hit hard. 

Having said that, there are long time members in my class who just don't deal with it well psychologically or physically, so they aren't ever the uke. Same with technique line, it is common knowledge who is an is not ok with getting hit hard, and its a trade. I want to know I can deliver the technique with power, and I know who will let me hit them hard, and they know in trade, they can hit me hard. It's worth it to each of us to take the hits, in order to have the chance to deliver them. Some may think the bruises on my ribs, thighs chest etc are indicative of abuse or out of control karate tough guys. I just call it effective training. But, we are all on the same page, thus no bullying. Many martial artists don't want to deal with that and that's fine, we don't hit them hard (and it shows in their Kenpo, to be honest).... many of us don't want to "hope" we can drop someone and make a technique work in a real fight, we want to know it long before hand.


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## Flea (Feb 19, 2011)

Bruno, thanks for posting that.  I'd never seen Full Metal Jacket before!  That guy was like a military Sue Sylvester.  :flame:


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## mook jong man (Feb 19, 2011)

sgtmac_46 said:


> No, that's just passion..........if she hadn't been an incompetent and screwed up the souffle, she wouldn't be getting yelled at!


 
That's great , but would you let him speak to your wife or daughter like that ?

I'm surprised no one has knocked the dickhead out yet.


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## chinto (Feb 19, 2011)

I did not see bulling, but demonstration with control. The instructor could have really injured the uki if he had wanted to.  the uki knew how to go with that motion to not be hurt. I have been uki for things and it can mean a bit of pain but its amazing how somethings are much easier to learn if they are demonstrated on you by some one more skilled then you are. This includes joint manipulations, locks, strikes or throws and also brakes ( demonstrated with complete control, and not of course an actual braking of the bone or joint. ) an example is what is known as BROKE KUMITE.


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 19, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> That's great , but would you let him speak to your wife or daughter like that ?
> 
> I'm surprised no one has knocked the dickhead out yet.


 
I'm pretty sure sgtmac was joking, hence the winky face lol. Obviously no one wants to be treated that badly, regardless of how "deserved" it was



chinto said:


> This includes joint manipulations, locks, strikes or throws and also brakes ( demonstrated with complete control, and not of course an actual braking of the bone or joint. ) an example is what is known as BROKE KUMITE.


 
Wait what's BROKE KUMITE? Not suprisingly I've never heard of it having never done any Kumite myself. Is it like handicap matches where you can't use one hand or whatever? The other thing is that going by the previous posts by those will a lot more experience than me alone, the point of a lot if not all of those joint manipulations, locks and throws is to get a break. The fact that there is control being demonstrated is the only reason the break doesn't happen. So how you do you demonstrate all of those and then demonstrate a break seperately without actually breaking someone's arm or leg or whatever?


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 19, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> That's great , but would you let him speak to your wife or daughter like that ?
> 
> I'm surprised no one has knocked the dickhead out yet.


 I was half-joking........but............

They don't have to work there, it's a voluntary choice. And i'm sure the rewards for putting up with it far outweigh what one gets working for a 'nicer boss'.

Quite frankly, what Ramsey does is no different than the R. Lee Ermey clip.........it's a boot camp, of sorts, to determine who has what it takes to thrive in that environment........he's, of course, putting on a show.........but the person who wins gets a contract as the head chef in one of his kitchens, a position i'm sure is not only prestigious but economically rewarding.

And i'd be careful about taking a swing at Ramsay.......he has a bit of that working-class British brawler about him.........the guy was a pro-footballer before injuring his knee, and grew up in a working class Scottish home with a beligerent drunken Scottish father..........so, yeah, i'm pretty sure he can fight.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 20, 2011)

K831 said:


> When I think of bullying I think of someone negatively enforcing their will or power on someone else...
> 
> That said, bullying isn't about the amount of roughness or pain involved, it's more about how all parties involved feel about it.
> 
> ...


 
Okay, little detour off the topic to a slight tangent here, but this is similar to the way you learn to be a hypnotherapist. Part of the ethical training method is that you don't do something with a client unless you have experienced it yourself. The reason is pretty simple, when messing inside someone's head, going in without awareness of the potential responces and reactions inside them is a very easy way to seriously screw them up. In short, it's a reverse golden rule, don't do anything to anyone that you haven't already had done to you!

It's the same idea in martial arts, for much the same reason. If you do something without having experienced it, there's a good chance you won't understand it's limits, let alone the limits of the person you're performing it on. You learn by doing, but you also learn by experiencing, or recieving. Both Uke and Tori are essential parts of your training, although a lot of people tend to forget about Uke much of the time... pity.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 20, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> That's great , but would you let him speak to your wife or daughter like that ?
> 
> I'm surprised no one has knocked the dickhead out yet.



That depends on the context. If my daughter was working in his kitchen, then yes, I would let him speak to her like that in the kitchen. That's a battle she has to fight, if she is working there voluntarily. That's no different from how she would be treated by a drill sergeant if she was in the marines.


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## Steve (Feb 20, 2011)

sgtmac_46 said:


> No, that's just passion..........if she hadn't been an incompetent and screwed up the souffle, she wouldn't be getting yelled at!



Actually, he's a bully *and* a successful chef.  Workplace bullying isn't against the law, but it's very, very common.  Any time you see a person in a position of authority humiliating, degrading or intimidating the employees, it's out of line and unnecessary.  Workplace bullies often set employees up to fail, assigning more work than can be accomplished, marginalizing and isolating specific employees, swearing at them, making them the butt of practical jokes.  It's short of a hostile work environment and also not typically a form of discrimination or harrassmant and it's not illegal. But it's dickish and, IMO, people shouldn't have to put up with it.

This reminded me of a Jon Stewart interview with Mario Batali.  While the interview is pretty funny, the relevant part starts at around 3:45 but the specific quote is at 4:05:  http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-may-6-2010/mario-batali


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 20, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Actually, he's a bully *and* a successful chef.  Workplace bullying isn't against the law, but it's very, very common.  Any time you see a person in a position of authority humiliating, degrading or intimidating the employees, it's out of line and unnecessary.  Workplace bullies often set employees up to fail, assigning more work than can be accomplished, marginalizing and isolating specific employees, swearing at them, making them the butt of practical jokes.  It's short of a hostile work environment and also not typically a form of discrimination or harrassmant and it's not illegal. But it's dickish and, IMO, people shouldn't have to put up with it.
> 
> This reminded me of a Jon Stewart interview with Mario Batali.  While the interview is pretty funny, the relevant part starts at around 3:45 but the specific quote is at 4:05:  http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-may-6-2010/mario-batali



I once viewed a program where an entusiastic kids was given tuition by a star chef for the purpose of competing against 2 professional non-star chefs. He was apt at it and actually won. But the thing I remember most is that halfway through the program, his entire kitchen team (which were professional sous-chefs and kitchen personnell) came up to him and asked him to command them, rather than ask them.

They told him that he was being way too nice, asking them to do things as if they were doing him a favor. They told him that a kitchen should be run like a chain of command, and the man in charge gives out orders. And because of that, they asked him to command them.


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## Steve (Feb 20, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> I once viewed a program where an entusiastic kids was given tuition by a star chef for the purpose of competing against 2 professional non-star chefs. He was apt at it and actually won. But the thing I remember most is that halfway through the program, his entire kitchen team (which were professional sous-chefs and kitchen personnell) came up to him and asked him to command them, rather than ask them.
> 
> They told him that he was being way too nice, asking them to do things as if they were doing him a favor. They told him that a kitchen should be run like a chain of command, and the man in charge gives out orders. And because of that, they asked him to command them.



There's a giant difference between being a decisive leader and being a bully.  It simply doesn't take yelling, humiliation and intimidation to get people to respect your leadership and get the best out of a group of people.    

Or, putting it a different way, isn't the distinction between the OP video of Kazuo Chiba Sensei and Chef Ramsey pretty glaring?


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 20, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> There's a giant difference between being a decisive leader and being a bully.  It simply doesn't take yelling, humiliation and intimidation to get people to respect your leadership and get the best out of a group of people.
> 
> Or, putting it a different way, isn't the distinction between the OP video of Kazuo Chiba Sensei and Chef Ramsey pretty glaring?


 
Yes, Gordon Ramsey has obviously no leadership qualities. He's only the most successful restauranteur in the world with 3 Michelin stars, and only two of his personally trained chefs have earned Michelin stars.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 20, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> There's a giant difference between being a decisive leader and being a bully.  It simply doesn't take yelling, humiliation and intimidation to get people to respect your leadership and get the best out of a group of people.
> 
> Or, putting it a different way, isn't the distinction between the OP video of Kazuo Chiba Sensei and Chef Ramsey pretty glaring?



And yet Ramsay is extraordinarily more successful than many 'nice chefs'.

Ramsay's way isn't MY way, but to say it doesn't take what he does to be as successful as he is is kind of silly when neither you nor I ARE as successful as he is........so what the hell do we know about what it does or doesn't take?

The fact is, that nothing succeeds like success.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 20, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> Yes, Gordon Ramsey has obviously no leadership qualities. He's only the most successful restauranteur in the world with 3 Michelin stars, and only two of his personally trained chefs have earned Michelin stars.



Ooooopss! 

Patton was a bully.........he bullied his way across Europe kicking the *** of the enemy beyond the abilities of other commanders.

The term 'bully' is completely subjective.


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## harlan (Feb 20, 2011)

If you measure 'success' by notoriety, then yes, he is. Frankly, as a cook for 14 years, I've seen my share of egos and they are ALWAYS a problem in the long term. 



sgtmac_46 said:


> And yet Ramsay is extraordinarily more successful than many 'nice chefs'.
> 
> Ramsay's way isn't MY way, but to say it doesn't take what he does to be as successful as he is is kind of silly when neither you nor I ARE as successful as he is........so what the hell do we know about what it does or doesn't take?
> 
> The fact is, that nothing succeeds like success.


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## jks9199 (Feb 20, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> Yes, Gordon Ramsey has obviously no leadership qualities. He's only the most successful restauranteur in the world with 3 Michelin stars, and only two of his personally trained chefs have earned Michelin stars.


That doesn't mean he's a leader.  It just means he manages to produce successful restaurants and has trained some good people -- who may have been just as good trained under someone else.  It may mean he's succeeded IN SPITE of his management style...

Leadership goes beyond getting people to do what you want.  It's getting people to want to do what you need them to do.  The clip of Mario Battali is telling...  I'd rather work for Mario than Gordon, any day.  Somehow I suspect that Chef Battali's staff looks forward to coming to work to see what they'll do together rather than simply putting up with work to get to the payday.


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## Steve (Feb 20, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> Yes, Gordon Ramsey has obviously no leadership qualities. He's only the most successful restauranteur in the world with 3 Michelin stars, and only two of his personally trained chefs have earned Michelin stars.


I guess it depends on how you measure success and the quality of a leader.  



sgtmac_46 said:


> And yet Ramsay is extraordinarily more successful than many 'nice chefs'.
> 
> Ramsay's way isn't MY way, but to say it doesn't take what he does to be as successful as he is is kind of silly when neither you nor I ARE as successful as he is........so what the hell do we know about what it does or doesn't take?
> 
> The fact is, that nothing succeeds like success.


Once again, I would argue your definition of success.  I consider myself extremely successful.  I have a family I adore, a successful marriage going on 18 years, and a reputation for competence in a position of leadership in a group of intelligent, creative people whom I manage to motivate without bullying them.  We make enough money to buy anything we need and most anything we want.  

While I don't know restaurants, I do know leadership.  I also know bullies.   

And once again, just to be very clear, I didn't say he was unsuccessful.  I DID say that he is both successful AND a bully.  The two are unrelated.  He simply uses his success as validation for his behavior.  



jks9199 said:


> That doesn't mean he's a leader. It just means he manages to produce successful restaurants and has trained some good people -- who may have been just as good trained under someone else. It may mean he's succeeded IN SPITE of his management style...
> 
> Leadership goes beyond getting people to do what you want. It's getting people to want to do what you need them to do. The clip of Mario Battali is telling... I'd rather work for Mario than Gordon, any day. Somehow I suspect that Chef Battali's staff looks forward to coming to work to see what they'll do together rather than simply putting up with work to get to the payday.


QFT.  Glad I'm not the only one.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 20, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> That doesn't mean he's a leader. It just means he manages to produce successful restaurants and has trained some good people -- who may have been just as good trained under someone else. It may mean he's succeeded IN SPITE of his management style...
> 
> Leadership goes beyond getting people to do what you want. It's getting people to want to do what you need them to do. The clip of Mario Battali is telling... I'd rather work for Mario than Gordon, any day. Somehow I suspect that Chef Battali's staff looks forward to coming to work to see what they'll do together rather than simply putting up with work to get to the payday.


 
You obviously have no idea about Gordon Ramsey. Before he was the SUCCESSFUL tv personaltiy he is today, he was the executive chef of A to Z's Aubergine restaurant in Southern England. The brass at A to Z wanted to fire one of the chefs in Gordon's kitchen, so he gave them an ultermatum, "Fire my chef and you'll lose me". They decided to fire the guy, so Gordon left with him. Now ramsey has always bee known as a hot head and his staff were treated mercilessly by him, as he was during his apprenticeship by Marco Pierre-White. All the kitchen staff in Aubergine decided to leave and follow Ramsey. 
Now this is all before Ramsey was the millionaire we know him to be now. He had very little money, but borrowed what he could to start his own restaurant. When his sous chef Sargant was asked why all the staff left with Ramsey, evn though their futures were uncertain in doing so, he replied, "What is more impressive on a resume, I worked for A to Z restaurants, or I worked for Gordon Ramsey?"
Gordon ramsey is a self made man. He doesn't just open restaurants and hire people to become the executive chef, he personally trains and guides his chefs. Most of his long term students are now successful restauranteurs in their own right.

His leadership speaks for itself.


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## Steve (Feb 20, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> You obviously have no idea about Gordon Ramsey. Before he was the SUCCESSFUL tv personaltiy he is today, he was the executive chef of A to Z's Aubergine restaurant in Southern England. The brass at A to Z wanted to fire one of the chefs in Gordon's kitchen, so he gave them an ultermatum, "Fire my chef and you'll lose me". They decided to fire the guy, so Gordon left with him. Now ramsey has always bee known as a hot head and his staff were treated mercilessly by him, as he was during his apprenticeship by Marco Pierre-White. All the kitchen staff in Aubergine decided to leave and follow Ramsey.
> Now this is all before Ramsey was the millionaire we know him to be now. He had very little money, but borrowed what he could to start his own restaurant. When his sous chef Sargant was asked why all the staff left with Ramsey, evn though their futures were uncertain in doing so, he replied, "What is more impressive on a resume, I worked for A to Z restaurants, or I worked for Gordon Ramsey?"
> Gordon ramsey is a self made man. He doesn't just open restaurants and hire people to become the executive chef, he personally trains and guides his chefs. Most of his long term students are now successful restauranteurs in their own right.
> 
> His leadership speaks for itself.


LOL.  He's a very successful bully.  Or, maybe I'd better back off a little, since I don't know the guy.  He intentionally assumes the persona of a bully on TV.  If it's an act, it's a good one.   He plays a very successful bully on TV.

The point remains, however, that he's successful in spite of being a bully, not because of it.  There are many, many examples of leaders who were not insecure or spoiled enough to believe that they could demean and intimidate employees and abuse their positions of authority.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 20, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> LOL. He's a very successful bully. Or, maybe I'd better back off a little, since I don't know the guy. He intentionally assumes the persona of a bully on TV. If it's an act, it's a good one. He plays a very successful bully on TV.
> 
> The point remains, however, that he's successful in spite of being a bully, not because of it. There are many, many examples of leaders who were not insecure or spoiled enough to believe that they could demean and intimidate employees and abuse their positions of authority.


Again, his demeaner does not negate the fact that he is a successful LEADER. If you think he's a bully, stay away from his hometown of Glasgow. If you're offended by Ramsey, you'd get eaten for breakfast by the OAPs.


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## Steve (Feb 20, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> Again, his demeaner does not negate the fact that he is a successful LEADER. If you think he's a bully, stay away from his hometown of Glasgow. If you're offended by Ramsey, you'd get eaten for breakfast by the OAPs.


Why so angry, yorkshirelad?  Is he a relative?   Here's an idea.  Instead of telling me what I should or shouldn't do, try addressing the points in the thread.   He's a famous, wealthy bully.  And, as I said before, his success in spite of his bullying seems only to have made him worse.   He's successful and also a bully.   Why is this so hard to understand?  You don't have to be a douchebag in order to be a leader.  The bullying isn't what makes him a good leader.  If he's a good leader, it's in spite of his douchebaggery, not because of it.  

And believe me, I've had plenty of experience with bullies and so far, not been eaten by any of them.  

As an aside, what the heck is an OAP?  I did a quick google search and the only one that made sense was Old Age Pensioner.   Why are they so angry and insecure, and why would they want to eat me for breakfast?


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## geezer (Feb 20, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> As an aside, what the heck is an OAP?  I did a quick google search and the only one that made sense was Old Age Pensioner.   Why are they so angry and insecure, and why would they want to eat me for breakfast?



If the OAPs in the UK are anything like the cranky old retirees we get out here in Arizona I know exactly what _Yorkshirelad_ is talking about. Watch out Steve!


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 21, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Why so angry, yorkshirelad? Is he a relative? Here's an idea. Instead of telling me what I should or shouldn't do, try addressing the points in the thread. He's a famous, wealthy bully. And, as I said before, his success in spite of his bullying seems only to have made him worse. He's successful and also a bully. Why is this so hard to understand? You don't have to be a douchebag in order to be a leader. The bullying isn't what makes him a good leader. If he's a good leader, it's in spite of his douchebaggery, not because of it.
> 
> And believe me, I've had plenty of experience with bullies and so far, not been eaten by any of them.
> 
> As an aside, what the heck is an OAP? I did a quick google search and the only one that made sense was Old Age Pensioner. Why are they so angry and insecure, and why would they want to eat me for breakfast?


 
Why so defensive. Surely the words "eaten for breakfast" and "OAP" would denote a certain amount of tongue in cheek. Unfortunately all the icons don't work on my computer at work.
Now, I live in Southern California. I've been accused many times of yelling at people. Many of these times I wasn't aware that my voice was raised. Then I was told that yelling in the US is speaking at someone. Where Ramsey is from yelling means something completely different. I would consider a Glaswegian to be yelling at me if he was screaming at me an inch from my face. In Glasgow and Britain as a whole, people can be very intense. It doesn't make it better or worse, just different.

I've heard some horror stories about young martial artists training under their teachers and the torture that they went through, yet they reminice with fondness. Tanemura of the Genbukan tells of his father knocking him out regularly as a young child and waking him up with buckets of water. To you and many others, this would constitute bullying and child abuse, but to Tanemura he looks back on it as a valuable learning experience. It's horses for courses mate! Most of the people who went through a successful appreniceship with Ramsey fondly reminice about their time with him. They consider it the Ranger school of the culinary arts.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 21, 2011)

Having worked with many English contractors over the years (in the space industry) I can say that there is a definite difference in communication between Americans and Brits. the latter are much more direct, use stronger language, and don't care about political correctness.

Gordon Ramsey is a Brit. Normal conversation in many UK businesses would have many Americans running to the court for filing suit.
'Good morning, ugly bastard' is a perfectly normal way to greet each other on a monday morning, at least it was among the people I knew, which were at the time mostly engineers.

What Gordon does is one form of leadership. there are other forms but his style is not invalid, looked at from the context in which he worked. That would not work in the US but it does in the UK.

Same with Italians and their way of conducting business meetings, with lots of armwaving and fingerpointing, calling people 'bastardo', losing their temper... and afterwards everybody agrees it was a good meeting (this happened with a colleague of mine at Alcatel Space). Americans would be shocked yet it was perfectly normal for them.


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## Rayban (Feb 21, 2011)

Forgive the late comer but back to the OP.

I personally like coming home from training in pain.  It means I've pushed myself harder and learned something.

I don't see any bullying in that clip.  Actually I'd be quite excited to be the Uke if I had the necessary skill to survive it 

As for Ramsey.

He's a brutish man who is results driven.  Not a bad thing, but it does leave a lot of areas that need polishing.  I'd call him more a manager rather than a leader.

A manager knows how best to do... A leader knows what's best to do.


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## Flea (Feb 21, 2011)

Rayban said:


> A manager knows how best to do... A leader knows what's best to do.



Rayban, that's a very cool quote.  Could you elaborate on that?


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## Rayban (Feb 21, 2011)

Flea said:


> Rayban, that's a very cool quote.  Could you  elaborate on that?



Of course 

Just because someone knows how best to achieve their objective doesn't  necessarily make them a good leader.  It just means they know how to  achieve their goal. 

A leader is one who questions the goals.  "Why is this my goal"?

Leaders are people who inspire followers by choosing certain goals (good or bad).  But they have a moral high-ground (or low ground if evil is your thing )that draws people in. 

A leader knows why, while a manager knows how.

I don't really think Ramsey knows why he does what he does.  If he was really just interested in becoming the best chef in the world, he would spend his time cooking and not making TV shows.  He knows how to do all this stuff but I'm not convinced he knows why.

Clear as mud  hope that made sense.


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## Steve (Feb 21, 2011)

Honestly, guys, I think it's clear that he's a leader. He inspires a shared vision, which is a common trait of a good leader. He sets clear expectations, is obviously a shrewd businessman. I just want to be clear that he is, IMO, a leader.

My point is only that he is ALSO a bully, and that he doesn't NEED to be one in order to be successful. If he truly runs his restaurants with the yelling, swearing and humiliation, he leaves an emotional wake behind him that's destructive to getting results. He's actually working counter to his goals.   I'm not a touchy feely guy.  Simply from a practical point of view, being a bully in a position of leadership is destructive.  These kinds of teams succeed in spite of it, not because of it.

I would guess that he doesn't actually run his restaurants like that. I just don't believe he could and be successful. Working under a bully creates a group that is disjointed where everyone is off balance and thinking only about survival... not being the one whom Gordon yells at next. If his kitchens run like that, he'd be out of business. 

As a slight aside, the link is to a Washington State Dept of Labor pdf on workplace bullying, just so you guys understand a little better what I mean when I say that he's a bully. http://www.lni.wa.gov/safety/research/files/bullying.pdf


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## SensibleManiac (Feb 21, 2011)

On the point of Ramsay, yes he's successful but I wonder how much of what we see is for the sake of TV and ratings? It makes for good tv.
As for his agreessive form of "leadership"? If I knew a manager/chef was that aggressive with his staff, I wouldn't eat there, something about stress and food I don't like. It shows when a cook loves what they're doing, it comes through in their cooking, when they are too stressed, that comes through in their cooking too and I definitely wouldn't pay for it.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm pretty sure the TV Ramsey is different then the real life Ramsey.  You can tell watching his shows towards the end when hes not playing the "roll" he seems to really care about the people hes helping.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 21, 2011)

Now you want to see a bully go find my Police Academy Defensive Tactics instructor.  I still fear him and hes almost 70 now.  Ive never been punched in the face that hard in my life.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 22, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I guess it depends on how you measure success and the quality of a leader.
> 
> Once again, I would argue your definition of success. I consider myself extremely successful. I have a family I adore, a successful marriage going on 18 years, and a reputation for competence in a position of leadership in a group of intelligent, creative people whom I manage to motivate without bullying them. We make enough money to buy anything we need and most anything we want.
> 
> ...


 

If we can choose our definitions of 'success' then who's unsuccessful?


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 22, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> LOL. He's a very successful bully. Or, maybe I'd better back off a little, since I don't know the guy. He intentionally assumes the persona of a bully on TV. If it's an act, it's a good one. He plays a very successful bully on TV.
> 
> The point remains, however, that he's successful in spite of being a bully, not because of it. There are many, many examples of leaders who were not insecure or spoiled enough to believe that they could demean and intimidate employees and abuse their positions of authority.


 
Patton was a 'bully' by your definition........but the Nazis feared him more than any Allied general.  He 'bullied' his troops during the Battle of the Bulge on forced march across hundreds of miles that was considered impossible to surprise both enemies and allies alike.

The 'bullies' you describe move heaven and earth......and because they demand FAR MORE of those under them than those people remotely think they can humanly deliver, they are considered 'bullies'.

The irony is that Patton was far more loyal to his subordinates, only firing one of his officers, than Bradley, who was thought a 'nice guy'........but Bradley fired several of his own officers, being a bit passive aggressive.

I'll take an assertive 'bully' to a passive aggressive any day of the week.......because you ALWAYS know where you stand with such a man.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 22, 2011)

The reality is that we consider results driven personalities like Ramsay 'Bullies' because we have become an effeminate culture which values 'feelings' over results......how something makes us 'feel' is all important to us.


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## Carol (Feb 22, 2011)

sgtmac_46 said:


> The reality is that we consider results driven personalities like Ramsay 'Bullies' because we have become an effeminate culture which values 'feelings' over results......how something makes us 'feel' is all important to us.



If the culture was _that _effeminate, his show wouldn't be profitable enough to sustain...let alone so popular that one still photo makes him instantly recognizable to a diverse group of adults such as the folks here.  I think he's regarded as a bully because of way too much incompetence.  There are far too many poseurs out there are more than happy to portray self-indulgent behaviour, without the results to back it up.


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## Blade96 (Feb 22, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> That is really like saying you knew a car was a 74 mustang because they have wheels and this car has wheels too.
> 
> Many traditional JMA have their practicioners wearing hakama. The locks etc are also very common in traditional jujutsu systems. The clip could have easily been of any of several dozen of jujutsu systems. Like daito ryu aikijujutsu for example:
> 
> [yt]XXngXtMdWrk[/yt]



yeah well aikido is the only one that i knew of where they wear hakamas....with my ignorant knowledge.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 23, 2011)

Carol said:


> If the culture was _that _effeminate, his show wouldn't be profitable enough to sustain...let alone so popular that one still photo makes him instantly recognizable to a diverse group of adults such as the folks here.  I think he's regarded as a bully because of way too much incompetence.  There are far too many poseurs out there are more than happy to portray self-indulgent behaviour, without the results to back it up.



I think that's because there is a backlash in the culture against it's over-feminization........Ironically enough many of those backlashing are women themselves.


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## Steve (Feb 23, 2011)

sgtmac_46 said:


> The reality is that we consider results driven personalities like Ramsay 'Bullies' because we have become an effeminate culture which values 'feelings' over results......how something makes us 'feel' is all important to us.


In an unskilled position where employees are disposable, this kind of management style can work.  Call them a donut, swear at them and if they quit, hire another cog.  

In any position where the employees are not disposable and are skilled, this kind of management style is the opposite of "results driven."  I'm not a touchy feely guy, but I do have this thing about treating people with respect. My experience has been when people start rambling on about "feelings' they're trying to rationalize their own behavior.  I would never sit down with an employee and talk about his or her feelings.  But I can talk to an employee about performance without swearing, calling them names, intimidating or demeaning him or her.  It's not that hard to do.  

Any good manager you see manages behavior, not feelings.

And once again, because it seems like you missed it, I have made it very clear that Ramsay is clearly a good leader and a good manager.   If his shows are representative of his actual management style, he's _*also *_a bully.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 23, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> I'm pretty sure the TV Ramsey is different then the real life Ramsey. You can tell watching his shows towards the end when hes not playing the "roll" he seems to really care about the people hes helping.


 
The real Ramsey has a worse temper than the screen Ramsey. Thames tv did an expose on British tv called "Britain's worse boss" or something like that. They sent a commie chef in to his kitchen wearing a secret camera. It was supposed to ruin Ramsey, but insteada rival tv company created a tv series for him called Boiling points and Gordon Ramsey the star was created.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 23, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> The real Ramsey has a worse temper than the screen Ramsey. Thames tv did an expose on British tv called "Britain's worse boss" or something like that. They sent a commie chef in to his kitchen wearing a secret camera. It was supposed to ruin Ramsey, but insteada rival tv company created a tv series for him called Boiling points and Gordon Ramsey the star was created.


Well There you go I guess he really is an jerk.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 24, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> In an unskilled position where employees are disposable, this kind of management style can work.  Call them a donut, swear at them and if they quit, hire another cog.
> 
> In any position where the employees are not disposable and are skilled, this kind of management style is the opposite of "results driven."  I'm not a touchy feely guy, but I do have this thing about treating people with respect. My experience has been when people start rambling on about "feelings' they're trying to rationalize their own behavior.  I would never sit down with an employee and talk about his or her feelings.  But I can talk to an employee about performance without swearing, calling them names, intimidating or demeaning him or her.  It's not that hard to do.
> 
> ...



As I said, a 'bully' is a pretty subjective term.........to some touchy/feely people, ANYONE who is 'assertive' is a 'bully'. 

But bully has become the new term du jour for someone we simply don't have a good feeling about......it's the new 'fascist'.......I suspect it's because we are inundated in the media with the term 'This person was bullied, that person was bullied'.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 24, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> The real Ramsey has a worse temper than the screen Ramsey. Thames tv did an expose on British tv called "Britain's worse boss" or something like that. They sent a commie chef in to his kitchen wearing a secret camera. It was supposed to ruin Ramsey, but insteada rival tv company created a tv series for him called Boiling points and Gordon Ramsey the star was created.



Apparently it's 'good' to be a bully.


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## Steve (Feb 24, 2011)

sgtmac_46 said:


> As I said, a 'bully' is a pretty subjective term.........to some touchy/feely people, ANYONE who is 'assertive' is a 'bully'.
> 
> But bully has become the new term du jour for someone we simply don't have a good feeling about......it's the new 'fascist'.


Thanks for the clarification.  I think I understand better now.  

If being assertive is being a bully, I'm sure I fit the bill according to some.  I posted a link to a document prepared by the Washington State Dept. of Labor on the subject of workplace bullies.  It's pretty good and articulates pretty well what I mean when I say "bully."  

Assertive, clear expectations, accountability and direct communication aren't bullying, even if the conversation is uncomfortable and direct.  Humiliation, intimidation, and disrespect are. 

Good:  "I asked you to do "X."  You did "Y."  That's not going to work and as a result "Z" is the consequence.  In the future, when I ask for X, I expect you to give me X."

Bad:  "Oh come on, YOU DONKEY!  I asked for X and you're an idiot.  This is "Y."  "YYYYYYY!!!!"  Come on, you DONUT!  If you're too much of a baby to do it right, quit.  QUIT!  QUIT!  QUIT!  Don't eyeball me!  Get out of my face!  Next time, I'll throw you out on your fat butt, you stupid cow."


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 28, 2011)

SensibleManiac said:


> On the point of Ramsay, yes he's successful but I wonder how much of what we see is for the sake of TV and ratings? It makes for good tv.
> As for his agreessive form of "leadership"? If I knew a manager/chef was that aggressive with his staff, I wouldn't eat there, something about stress and food I don't like. It shows when a cook loves what they're doing, it comes through in their cooking, when they are too stressed, that comes through in their cooking too and I definitely wouldn't pay for it.


A good friend of mine went to culinary school and was intent upon becoming a chef.  When he entered the work world, he found that he did not have the skin for it.  I don't know if Ramsay's style is the norm, but the field is apparently not for the thin skinned.  

He didn't complain about it, though he did change fields because he said that he couldn't hack it in that environment.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 28, 2011)

Flea said:


> I found this rather chilling ...
> 
> [yt]zMJ-Dl4eJu8&feature[/yt]
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, I could only watch the first couple of minutes. It just made me sick and I had to turn it off. How common is this sort of thing? We all like to say that the arts teach a person character and humility, but of course anything that involves power is going to attract its share of dolts.


 
I've been that guy for years (the one getting tossed around)  Learned a lot!  I never perceived my instructor as a bully, and after being a kid who was bullied in school through middle school, I am farily good at picking out bullies.  

Others here have covered what is happening in this video, so aside from agreeing that this is not bullying, I won't comment any further, aside from saying that an outsider's perceptions is often very different.  



Flea said:


> Personally, I can happily say that I've only ever encountered one bully in my vast 2+ years of MA experience. He was considerate enough to be rude and arrogant over the phone, thus saving me the trip. Now _that's_ customer service. :uhyeah:


A fortuitous outcome!

Daniel


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