# MMA-trained delinquents beat a kid to death



## O'Malley (Sep 7, 2020)

I was reading the news and I read a story that troubled me as a martial artist. In Colleferro, near Rome (Italy), 21 year-old Willy Monteiro Duarte was killed trying to stop a fight involving another 21 y.o. against brothers Marco, 26, and Gabriele Bianchi, 24, Mario Pincarelli, 22, Francesco Belleggia, 21, and another man. The five of them beat up Willy, who was killed by a kick to the head as he was lying on the ground. A few hours after his death, the group was making ironic posts on social media. The Bianchi brothers were long-time MMA practitioners. They were well-known in the region as the "Artena gang", as they terrorised the population, sold drugs and beat up whoever was in their way. Probably had ties with organised crime as well.

This is a very sad story, which got me thinking about our common passion. Sometimes, the attacker is not the "average, untrained guy". Sometimes, whatever training you have could not save your life. I also wonder how come their coach was still training them, considering their criminal record and reputation. It is a real disgrace for MMA and martial arts in general and I just wanted to share it. Thoughts?


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> I was reading the news and I read a story that troubled me as a martial artist. In Colleferro, near Rome (Italy), 21 year-old Willy Monteiro Duarte was killed trying to stop a fight involving another 21 y.o. against brothers Marco, 26, and Gabriele Bianchi, 24, Mario Pincarelli, 22, Francesco Belleggia, 21, and another man. The five of them beat up Willy, who was killed by a kick to the head as he was lying on the ground. A few hours after his death, the group was making ironic posts on social media. The Bianchi brothers were long-time MMA practitioners. They were well-known in the region as the "Artena gang", as they terrorised the population, sold drugs and beat up whoever was in their way. Probably had ties with organised crime as well.
> 
> This is a very sad story, which got me thinking about our common passion. Sometimes, the attacker is not the "average, untrained guy". Sometimes, whatever training you have could not save your life. I also wonder how come their coach was still training them, considering their criminal record and reputation. It is a real disgrace for MMA and martial arts in general and I just wanted to share it. Thoughts?


do you think we have a systemic issue within MMA and martial arts where we are training criminals and endorsing their criminal behavior?  If not, I don't get the point.


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## Oni_Kadaki (Sep 7, 2020)

Steve said:


> do you think we have a systemic issue within MMA and martial arts where we are training criminals and endorsing their criminal behavior?  If not, I don't get the point.



I think, if nothing else, it's a cautionary tale to never assume your opponent knows less than you.


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2020)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> I think, if nothing else, it's a cautionary tale to never assume your opponent knows less than you.


I can agree with that.


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## O'Malley (Sep 7, 2020)

I certainly don't think that MMA gyms encourage criminal behaviour. Not the ones I know. However, I wonder about the place those gangsters train at.

I don't know what kind of systemic measures are in place in MMA federations and gyms to ensure that fighting skills are not taught to gangsters and psychopaths.

I just know that a well-known criminal was allowed to run amok and still fight as a pro. I also know that he'll be, at least for a big part of the general public here, the face of MMA in Italy fro the next weeks. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on this. How do you deal with bad apples? Should anyone be allowed to train? Any similar experiences?


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## Headhunter (Sep 7, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> I certainly don't think that MMA gyms encourage criminal behaviour. Not the ones I know. However, I wonder about the place those gangsters train at.
> 
> I don't know what kind of systemic measures are in place in MMA federations and gyms to ensure that fighting skills are not taught to gangsters and psychopaths.
> 
> I just know that a well-known criminal was allowed to run amok and still fight as a pro. I also know that he'll be, at least for a big part of the general public here, the face of MMA in Italy fro the next weeks. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on this. How do you deal with bad apples? Should anyone be allowed to train? Any similar experiences?


A well known criminal allowed to fight pro.....yeah....Jon Jones, Conor McGregor, Jason Miller, Lee Murray just to name a few.

there’s really not a lot you can do. You can’t insist on a criminal record check unless they’re teaching children and even if they have got a criminal past that shouldn’t stop them training either. Because some people can use it to change and better themselves. Obviously it depends on the crime as well. Street fighting and small time stuff then yeah but if it’s something like murder, rape, child abuse then no I wouldn’t teach those people but at the end of the day there really is no way of finding out unless they’re open about it. All you can do is watch everyone and if you see something off about their personality then monitor it and take it from there


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## Buka (Sep 7, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> I certainly don't think that MMA gyms encourage criminal behaviour. Not the ones I know. However, I wonder about the place those gangsters train at.
> 
> I don't know what kind of systemic measures are in place in MMA federations and gyms to ensure that fighting skills are not taught to gangsters and psychopaths.
> 
> I just know that a well-known criminal was allowed to run amok and still fight as a pro. I also know that he'll be, at least for a big part of the general public here, the face of MMA in Italy fro the next weeks. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on this. How do you deal with bad apples? Should anyone be allowed to train? Any similar experiences?



I get a little upset when I read things like what happened in the first post. Maybe I'm just too sensitive, I don't know.

I don't know if "anybody should be allowed to train". When I ran my old dojo, which lasted many years, prospective students had to fill out an application that was five pages long and asked a lot of questions. Some people told me I had no right to ask those questions. I informed them it was a private club, but you didn't really have to answer them. Then I pointed to the door. I'd do it in a nice way, but that's how I did it.

It was a city school and the majority of students were young men. It let them know exactly what they would be dealing with, and what they were getting their young ashes into. All police, firefighters, EMTs and emergency workers trained for free. Most single parent families did as well. And we kind of had a reputation for helping, shy, awkward kids. Everybody took them under their wings.

As for bad apples....I always did like making applesauce.


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## lklawson (Sep 9, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> was killed by a kick to the head as he was lying on the ground.


Yep, getting kicked in the head can, and does, kill people.



> A few hours after his death, the group was making ironic posts on social media.


It's nice when criminals admit to their crimes and help police catch them and prosecutors convict them.



> The Bianchi brothers were long-time MMA practitioners. They were well-known in the region as the "Artena gang", as they terrorised the population, sold drugs and beat up whoever was in their way. Probably had ties with organised crime as well.


What?  You mean bad guys and gangs can practice martial arts too?  When did this start?



> This is a very sad story, which got me thinking about our common passion.


Knitting?



> Sometimes, the attacker is not the "average, untrained guy".


Ever.



> Sometimes, whatever training you have could not save your life.


I'm shocked that I still have to say this to anyone.  But if you get in a fight there is a non-zero chance that you will be permanently injured, killed, or go to prison for the rest of your life.  Non-zero.



> I also wonder how come their coach was still training them, considering their criminal record and reputation.


I wonder if he is part of the gang?  Sponsor member?



> It is a real disgrace for MMA and martial arts in general and I just wanted to share it. Thoughts?


You've never heard of the Triads?  The Mafia (stiletto training)? Yakuza?  South African "Piper" knife?

Bad guys and gangs have *ALWAYS* had access to martial training.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## O'Malley (Sep 9, 2020)

I see what you mean, Kirk, however wouldn't it be better if federations took away the license of pro fighters that misbehave? Wouldn't it be better if coaches refused to teach MA to those known to terrorise the town? Wouldn't it be better if federations excluded clubs that don't comply with ethical standards?

I'm not naive. I practice a martial art (aikido) whose founder had close ties to violent ultranationalist movements. I'm just wondering whether more can be done to keep clubs and federations clean. I find it worthy of reflexion, considering the reported links between, for example, some MMA clubs, federations and fighters and the rising threat of far-right extremism.

Btw I'd be curious to read your sources on stiletto training among mafia members. The only one I've found was a mention on Wikipedia about a Black Hand section in the US that had a training facility.


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## Headhunter (Sep 9, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> I see what you mean, Kirk, however wouldn't it be better if federations took away the license of pro fighters that misbehave? Wouldn't it be better if coaches refused to teach MA to those known to terrorise the town? Wouldn't it be better if federations excluded clubs that don't comply with ethical standards?
> 
> I'm not naive. I practice a martial art (aikido) whose founder had close ties to violent ultranationalist movements. I'm just wondering whether more can be done to keep clubs and federations clean. I find it worthy of reflexion, considering the reported links between, for example, some MMA clubs, federations and fighters and the rising threat of far-right extremism.
> 
> Btw I'd be curious to read your sources on stiletto training among mafia members. The only one I've found was a mention on Wikipedia about a Black Hand section in the US that had a training facility.


If you don’t licence every single fighter with a record then there’ll be very few Fighters left. Everyone should be given the opportunity to change and numerous fighters have changed because they had fighting whether it be boxing, kickboxing or mma to focus on and channel that aggression.

Also simply no..there’s no way to know if someone’s got a record unless they tell you and you can’t force them to tell you either. 
You’ve just got to do what you can do to control things best you can but at the end of the day a martial arts teacher isn’t their daddy. They’re job is to teach martial arts they can’t afford to be getting police checks for everyone Who walks in their door. Yes if they could then it’d be perfect but the reality is it doesn’t work that way


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## lklawson (Sep 9, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> I see what you mean, Kirk, however wouldn't it be better if federations took away the license of pro fighters that misbehave?


Better?  By who's definition of "misbehave?"  If you want to make sure an authorizing federation yanks credentials for people who are doing things you think are bad, then you can either be influential in whatever fed credentials them or start your own.  IOW, join the MMA federation and get important enough with them to be able to throw your weight around and get what you want done.



> Wouldn't it be better if coaches refused to teach MA to those known to terrorise the town?


Sure it'd be nice.  If everyone could agree on what constitutes "terrorizing."



> Wouldn't it be better if federations excluded clubs that don't comply with ethical standards?


Sure it'd be nice.  But first we all have to agree, across multiple cultures, what constitutes "ethical" behavior. 



> I'm not naive.


I'm unconvinced.



> I'm just wondering whether more can be done to keep clubs and federations clean.


Nothing.  Governments have been working for centuries to try to keep corruption and vice out of various sports.  They have to power to bring lots of heavily armed men and kill you or put you in prison for ever.  But even they haven't been able to keep organizations "clean."  You want a clean organization, then you have to either try to work from the inside to clean it up or get out of it.



> I find it worthy of reflexion, considering the reported links between, for example, some MMA clubs, federations and fighters and the rising threat of far-right extremism.


"the rising threat of far-right extremism?"  Oh good gravy.  Leave your politics and bias out of this shiz before a dozen other people start posting examples of "the rising threat of far-left extremism" and this whole thread turns into a sh*t-show then gets locked.  Let's just agree that there's plenty of violence to go around, both associated and associated with, literally, any and every political or religious ideology and every ethnic background.



> Btw I'd be curious to read your sources on stiletto training among mafia members. The only one I've found was a mention on Wikipedia about a Black Hand section in the US that had a training facility.


I very briefly trained with a guy once upon a time who told me of an oral history.  Outside of that, there are numerous similar sources making such claims.

But, like the criminal misuse of the Slungshot, I rather doubt anyone from that culture wrote a history book or martial manual contemporary to the time period.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (Sep 9, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> If you don’t licence every single fighter with a record then there’ll be very few Fighters left. Everyone should be given the opportunity to change and numerous fighters have changed because they had fighting whether it be boxing, kickboxing or mma to focus on and channel that aggression.
> 
> Also simply no..there’s no way to know if someone’s got a record unless they tell you and you can’t force them to tell you either.
> You’ve just got to do what you can do to control things best you can but at the end of the day a martial arts teacher isn’t their daddy. They’re job is to teach martial arts they can’t afford to be getting police checks for everyone Who walks in their door. Yes if they could then it’d be perfect but the reality is it doesn’t work that way


I agree with the first part.  But if desired, it wouldn't be that hard to do a background check.  Would it?

Now, that said, there are some new laws in the USA with regards to discriminating against people just because the have a record. Be worth looking at.


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## lklawson (Sep 9, 2020)

Buka said:


> I get a little upset when I read things like what happened in the first post. Maybe I'm just too sensitive, I don't know.
> 
> I don't know if "anybody should be allowed to train". When I ran my old dojo, which lasted many years, prospective students had to fill out an application that was five pages long and asked a lot of questions. Some people told me I had no right to ask those questions. I informed them it was a private club, but you didn't really have to answer them. Then I pointed to the door. I'd do it in a nice way, but that's how I did it.
> 
> ...


I had to get a background check to teach under the USJA.  They made me pay for it.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> I see what you mean, Kirk, however wouldn't it be better if federations took away the license of pro fighters that misbehave? Wouldn't it be better if coaches refused to teach MA to those known to terrorise the town? Wouldn't it be better if federations excluded clubs that don't comply with ethical standards?
> 
> I'm not naive. I practice a martial art (aikido) whose founder had close ties to violent ultranationalist movements. I'm just wondering whether more can be done to keep clubs and federations clean. I find it worthy of reflexion, considering the reported links between, for example, some MMA clubs, federations and fighters and the rising threat of far-right extremism.
> 
> Btw I'd be curious to read your sources on stiletto training among mafia members. The only one I've found was a mention on Wikipedia about a Black Hand section in the US that had a training facility.



The far right extremism and MMA is a blast from the past.

I think that came up ten years ago. And they were kind of terrible. Which would make sense as a lot of Brazilians are pretty dark. You wouldn't get much quality training.


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## O'Malley (Sep 9, 2020)

lklawson said:


> Better?  By who's definition of "misbehave?"  If you want to make sure an authorizing federation yanks credentials for people who are doing things you think are bad, then you can either be influential in whatever fed credentials them or start your own.  IOW, join the MMA federation and get important enough with them to be able to throw your weight around and get what you want done.
> 
> Sure it'd be nice.  If everyone could agree on what constitutes "terrorizing."
> 
> Sure it'd be nice.  But first we all have to agree, across multiple cultures, what constitutes "ethical" behavior.



In this case, the guys had been convicted for battery and drug dealing. I'm pretty sure it's considered unethical behaviour in your culture as well.



> "the rising threat of far-right extremism?"  Oh good gravy.  Leave your politics and bias out of this shiz before a dozen other people start posting examples of "the rising threat of far-left extremism" and this whole thread turns into a sh*t-show then gets locked.  Let's just agree that there's plenty of violence to go around, both associated and associated with, literally, any and every political or religious ideology and every ethnic background.



That part is a bit misguided. It has nothing to do with my own political opinions (that you don't know  ), far-right extremism is widely recognised as one of the rising threats to global security. No need to refer to recent incidents, just ask Europol (Terrorism Situation and Trend Report 2019 (TE-SAT) ) or the UN (https://www.un.org/sc/ctc/wp-conten...Trends_Alert_Extreme_Right-Wing_Terrorism.pdf ). 



> I very briefly trained with a guy once upon a time who told me of an oral history.  Outside of that, there are numerous similar sources making such claims.



You sounded like you knew something about it. Frankly, I had hoped for a better answer.


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## O'Malley (Sep 9, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The far right extremism and MMA is a blast from the past.
> 
> I think that came up ten years ago. And they were kind of terrible. Which would make sense as a lot of Brazilians are pretty dark. You wouldn't get much quality training.



Makes sense. I wonder about the situation today, though.


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> Makes sense. I wonder about the situation today, though.



I had a look and soccer hooligans in the more eastern European countries are mad keen for a MMA.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> I was reading the news and I read a story that troubled me as a martial artist. In Colleferro, near Rome (Italy), 21 year-old Willy Monteiro Duarte was killed trying to stop a fight involving another 21 y.o. against brothers Marco, 26, and Gabriele Bianchi, 24, Mario Pincarelli, 22, Francesco Belleggia, 21, and another man. The five of them beat up Willy, who was killed by a kick to the head as he was lying on the ground. A few hours after his death, the group was making ironic posts on social media. The Bianchi brothers were long-time MMA practitioners. They were well-known in the region as the "Artena gang", as they terrorised the population, sold drugs and beat up whoever was in their way. Probably had ties with organised crime as well.
> 
> This is a very sad story, which got me thinking about our common passion. Sometimes, the attacker is not the "average, untrained guy". Sometimes, whatever training you have could not save your life. I also wonder how come their coach was still training them, considering their criminal record and reputation. It is a real disgrace for MMA and martial arts in general and I just wanted to share it. Thoughts?



The only thought I have is the one that I have always heard from TMA teachers.  "Don't be on the ground"


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## ShortBridge (Sep 9, 2020)

In one of my first martial arts gyms, a guy joined who was about 20 and when the teacher asked him why he wanted training, his answer was "I want to be a trained killer".

I was there for Muay Thai, but the head instructor was an Escrima champion. He kind of laughed and then took the guy's money and started training him on knives.

I sparred with the guy a bit and he never struck me as particularly dangerous, but I don't think he was kidding. 

I run my school very differently.


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## O'Malley (Sep 10, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I had a look and soccer hooligans in the more eastern European countries are mad keen for a MMA.



Yep, so I have heard. There are also reports of organised group fights between hooligan factions. The nexus between soccer hooligans and extremist groups/organised crime is pretty well-known but it would be interesting to look at these groups' involvement in martial arts.



JowGaWolf said:


> The only thought I have is the one that I have always heard from TMA teachers.  "Don't be on the ground"



It's never fun down there, right? Unless you're a BJJ guy and you're isolated from the opponent's buddies, then it's a cakewalk.



ShortBridge said:


> In one of my first martial arts gyms, a guy joined who was about 20 and when the teacher asked him why he wanted training, his answer was "I want to be a trained killer".
> 
> I was there for Muay Thai, but the head instructor was an Escrima champion. He kind of laughed and then took the guy's money and started training him on knives.
> 
> ...



That's interesting, how do you run your school? Do you have some kind of disciplinary policy?


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## drop bear (Sep 10, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> Yep, so I have heard. There are also reports of organised group fights between hooligan factions. The nexus between soccer hooligans and extremist groups/organised crime is pretty well-known but it would be interesting to look at these groups' involvement in martial arts.




There is also a gang in Timor? That are all martial artists. P24 or something.

East Timor bans martial-arts clubs as gangs wreak havoc on island

Straight out of King fu hustle pretty much.


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## Cynik75 (Sep 10, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> ...The nexus between soccer hooligans and extremist groups/organised crime is pretty well-known but it would be interesting to look at these groups' involvement in martial arts..


Some of football hooligans in Poland train martial arts, some of the fights in MMA/boxing/MT, some just lift weights.  If you want to be a part of football street gang and fight other gangs it is better to be skilled and strong. During my 15 years adventure with boxing, judo, bjj I have met and trainded with many of them, but I know hooligans with zero connection to MA or any sport at all too. It is a private matter.


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## lklawson (Sep 10, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> In this case, the guys had been convicted for battery and drug dealing. I'm pretty sure it's considered unethical behaviour in your culture as well.


You're missing the point.  "Ethics" is something that doesn't have universal agreement.




> That part is a bit misguided. It has nothing to do with my own political opinions (that you don't know  ), far-right extremism is widely recognised as one of the rising threats to global security. No need to refer to recent incidents, just ask Europol (Terrorism Situation and Trend Report 2019 (TE-SAT) ) or the UN (https://www.un.org/sc/ctc/wp-conten...Trends_Alert_Extreme_Right-Wing_Terrorism.pdf ).


And so is far-left extremism.  You're missing the point.  Politics is verboten on this forum.  



> You sounded like you knew something about it. Frankly, I had hoped for a better answer.


Frankly, I'm under no obligation to tell you what little was told me.  I will, again, tell you what I was given (more or less) permission to repeat.  The Italian Mafia had (has) a tradition of knife training/fighting coming from Italy.  Just because they were living in a new nation doesn't mean that they stopped.  It's foolish to think otherwise.  This is all pretty much public anyway.

So, anyway, back to your question.  I'll be (more) blunt.  No, there's no way to police who you think should or should not get martial training from anywhere or anyone.  Thinking you can is like thinking you can hold back the tides with your palms.


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## ShortBridge (Sep 10, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> That's interesting, how do you run your school? Do you have some kind of disciplinary policy?



High-Level:
I only teach adults.

Our kwoon has no street presence, so it's not possible to "drop by". It's also not possible to join on-line.

I ask people to contact me if they're interested in training and we work through what they are looking for and why. I almost always recommend other clubs and styles depending on what they say. If they are interested, then I invite them to visit and join us for a class. We agree that at the end of that class, we'll each thank each other and part ways amicably. If they want to train with us, I ask them to contact me again and let me know why, that way no one is on-the-spot on the night of their visit. If they plan to visit x other clubs, then there's no time limit on getting back to me (within reason). If I don't think that I can support their objectives or if I think they would disrupt our club, then I don't invite them to join, but normally if they've made it this far things work out.

When they visit, I alter things a bit to give them a view of what a normal class might look like combined with an overview of our system, what we do and why. I never explain why we are superior to anything else, but I do tell them why I chose the system and why I think it works for me. We always have tea at the end of the night and they get a chance to talk to the other students and ask whatever questions they may have. I make the point that the best way to judge a teacher is by their students, so I encourage them to touch hands with everyone ask them questions about their experience and training.

We're a club, people are in or they are out. There's no coming and going. 5 years in, we have a near 0% attrition rate. Occasionally someone will move away or something, but people don't disappear and then show back up months later with an expectation.

If they are in, they are expected to come. Of course, people have jobs and get sick and take vacations, but there is an agreement to not take soft nights off. Communication is mandatory.

Dues are simple and they are due by the last class of the previous month. I don't advertise what they are, but I will tell people when they visit or maybe when they call if I think they are for real.

We don't do much bowing and uniform wearing and stuff, but there are a few protocols and observances. For the most part, the senior students pass those on to new people. When we have visitors or visit other schools, which we generally do once a month, things are a little bit more formal and if visiting, we observe the traditions and rules of the host, of course. Once a year or so, I might have to stop class and tell them that the floor is dirty and we're not going on until it gets cleaned, but for the most part, the students self-police.

Generally, I would estimate that:
About 1/2 of the people who call get invited to visit. With people who email it's closer to 20%. Those who text...lower still.
Of the people who plan to visit, to keep the math easy, I'll say about 1/2 of them show up.
Of people who show up, maybe 70% get invited to join. Most of those accept. Probably about 20% of those who accept back out before they start.
Once people start, they tend to stay. In 5 years, a few people have moved away or something, but that bi-lateral selection process has helped avoid problems like ones we've been discussing and I feel like people know what they are getting into, there's no surprise.
Generally senior students and/or people who work harder are clearly better. There's not a lot of mystique sold about it, so people start with the understanding what progress looks like and what their role in that is.

I do take input from my existing students on accepting a new student, but ultimately it's my decision. Rare problems get dealt with pretty directly by me or the class. We don't let things linger.

Of course, all of this is pre-covid. My students and I are all in touch with each other and have seen each other a few times for back yard cookouts and things. They have keys so people have gone in to train on their own, but I haven't held class or collected dues since March. I expect that not everyone will come back and we'll have some decisions to make when the world returns to normal, but that's how things have generally run in normal times. There's a bit more, but if I publish it on the internet it will lose it's effectiveness when people participate in real life.

The short version of all of that is that I carefully chose who to train and I encourage them to mindfully chose us if they join and then commit, though I don't require any kind contractual commitment. We are all protective and respectful of what we have and we've done a good job of avoiding any real problems.

EDIT: Oh, and a big one - No posting anything on the internet about what we do. No YouTube videos, no style or lineage debating. I participate here, of course. I could lift that for a senior student, like my SiFu did for me, but we are generally private about our training beyond a certain point and respectful of other people's. A few of my students spar or train outside of the club, but they are transparent with me about it and we bring their successes and failures into our work. Generally, no one would be encouraged to do that until they had reached a certain point in their training and only with full disclosure and on-going dialogue with me.


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## ShortBridge (Sep 10, 2020)

AceVentura said:


> We had a guy come in once who said he wanted to learn defense against drive by shootings.
> 
> 
> It takes all kinds.



Did you teach him parkour?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2020)

It seems that there is an assumption that martial arts is honorable by default.  Historically  I think it may be the opposite.  I think we confuse the system with the people.  The reality that bad people train to fight shouldn't be shocking


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## O'Malley (Sep 10, 2020)

lklawson said:


> You're missing the point.  "Ethics" is something that doesn't have universal agreement.



No need for universal agreement, though. You can agree at the federation level about the standards that you want to uphold and suspend athletes that don't comply. It happens in other sports. The problem is enforcement, as said by other posters here.



> Frankly, I'm under no obligation to tell you what little was told me.  I will, again, tell you what I was given (more or less) permission to repeat.  The Italian Mafia had (has) a tradition of knife training/fighting coming from Italy.  Just because they were living in a new nation doesn't mean that they stopped.  It's foolish to think otherwise.  This is all pretty much public anyway.



I work as an analyst on organised crime matters in Italy, I know a bit about mafia. Apart from a book mentioning a group in Hillsville, USA, I found no sources (in Italian or English) on any form of knife training among mafiosi. I can imagine that in some cases newbies have had to prove their worth by fighting with a knife but it's not even common, and there's certainly no tradition of knife training. The mafia's methods are pretty well-known but I have yet to read an antimafia report mentioning that. That's why I'm very skeptical about your comrade's statements.



> So, anyway, back to your question.  I'll be (more) blunt.  No, there's no way to police who you think should or should not get martial training from anywhere or anyone.  Thinking you can is like thinking you can hold back the tides with your palms.



I agree that it's impossible to enforce completely and that it's ultimately up to the coaches to decide who they'll teach. That said, I was curious about the mechanisms that gyms and federations use to deal with this kind of people. ShortBridge has a pretty thorough screening system, for example.



ShortBridge said:


> High-Level:
> I only teach adults.
> 
> Our kwoon has no street presence, so it's not possible to "drop by". It's also not possible to join on-line.
> ...



Thanks for this great answer.



JowGaWolf said:


> It seems that there is an assumption that martial arts is honorable by default.  Historically  I think it may be the opposite.  I think we confuse the system with the people.  The reality that bad people train to fight shouldn't be shocking



I don't disagree. That said, in a modern society, martial arts have the potential to train strong, reliable and righteous people that contribute positively to society. But yeah, it's impossible to keep all bad apples from training.


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## Ivan (Sep 10, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> I certainly don't think that MMA gyms encourage criminal behaviour. Not the ones I know. However, I wonder about the place those gangsters train at.
> 
> I don't know what kind of systemic measures are in place in MMA federations and gyms to ensure that fighting skills are not taught to gangsters and psychopaths.
> 
> I just know that a well-known criminal was allowed to run amok and still fight as a pro. I also know that he'll be, at least for a big part of the general public here, the face of MMA in Italy fro the next weeks. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on this. How do you deal with bad apples? Should anyone be allowed to train? Any similar experiences?


The places gangsters train at? Look no further than my place of origin. Eastern Europe. Specifically Bulgaria. It is seen as a sort of boast to train MMA. And there is also the stereotype of built gym lads, usually the ones who have trained in at least one combative sport, to go out looking for trouble in groups. And stereotypes are usually there for a reason.


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## lklawson (Sep 10, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> No need for universal agreement, though. You can agree at the federation level about the standards that you want to uphold and suspend athletes that don't comply. It happens in other sports. The problem is enforcement, as said by other posters here.


In the U.S., it was once considered a career ending offense for a public worker or civil servant to have an extra-marital affair, while at the same time it was considered common in many other European areas.  There was no agreement about sex outside of marriage even among cultures from the same linage.  What constitutes an "under-aged" sexual partner?  How big a deal is "theft?"  Do you want to use Moslem standards for ethical norms; they represent a huge percentage of the world's population?  What about Christian standards?  Catholic or Baptist?  Is caning a reasonable punishment?  In a Dojo, is it OK for a Sensei to whack students with a Shinai?

Maybe you can get the IOC to agree about doping but it's gonna be hard to enforce the IOC's Ethics document on [fill in the blank dojo] or MMA school.  Heck, you can't get the Gracies and the Machados to agree on whether or not it's BJJ or GJJ.




> I work as an analyst on organised crime matters in Italy, I know a bit about mafia. Apart from a book mentioning a group in Hillsville, USA, I found no sources (in Italian or English) on any form of knife training among mafiosi. I can imagine that in some cases newbies have had to prove their worth by fighting with a knife but it's not even common, and there's certainly no tradition of knife training. The mafia's methods are pretty well-known but I have yet to read an antimafia report mentioning that. That's why I'm very skeptical about your comrade's statements.


OK.  Maybe I was lied to.  Maybe the person who showed me some stuff was lied to and he was honestly perpetuating it.  Maybe it's just stuff that criminals aren't willing to talk to antimafiosa cops about.  Whatever.  The end point is that I was told by someone I trust not to lie to me that there is an living and oral tradition.  

No, I don't really remember anything about the specific techniques except that they seemed basic, solid, hi-percentage techniques which fit the stiletto well and could reasonably be believed to trace to the Renaissance weapon of the same name based on the recorded material of that weapon.  It worked and looked like any other knife fighting associated with a narrow-ish thrust oriented blade not exceeding 8-9" or so.  <shrug>


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 10, 2020)

Steve said:


> do you think we have a systemic issue within MMA and martial arts where we are training criminals and endorsing their criminal behavior?  If not, I don't get the point.



My minimal experience with some different styles leads me to believe most schools teach their students not to engage in fights if it can be avoided.

That said, for a very long time in Korea, "Judo School Dropout" has been a euphemism for a gangster thug.  They would study Judo to a high level but never test for belt levels.  That prevented charges against them in Korean courts.


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## Buka (Sep 10, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> High-Level:
> I only teach adults.
> 
> Our kwoon has no street presence, so it's not possible to "drop by". It's also not possible to join on-line.
> ...



I just love this post.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 10, 2020)

lklawson said:


> Better?  By who's definition of "misbehave?"  If you want to make sure an authorizing federation yanks credentials for people who are doing things you think are bad, then you can either be influential in whatever fed credentials them or start your own.  IOW, join the MMA federation and get important enough with them to be able to throw your weight around and get what you want done.
> 
> Sure it'd be nice.  If everyone could agree on what constitutes "terrorizing."
> 
> ...



Ref underlined:  The way it seems to work, is that if there are problems or just perceived problems, and if the organization/federation doesn't change them, the government likely will make some hopefully well intended, but actually all totally screwed up attempts to fix the problems.  Including problems that do not exist.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Sep 13, 2020)

AceVentura said:


> We had a guy come in once who said he wanted to learn defense against drive by shootings.
> 
> 
> It takes all kinds.



Funnies thing about that is, you would get that in a tactical shooting class.   they generally cover cover and concealment or should cover it.


Also taking a paraphrase from the anarchist cook book: "this book serves as a guide for civilians should they need the skills, as the XYZ group(s) have their own manuals and training programes etc and dont need this book."   No idea if its relvent, but i still like that one.


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## MA_Student (Sep 14, 2020)

Unfortunate but very little that can be done about it


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## JP3 (Sep 24, 2020)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> I think, if nothing else, it's a cautionary tale to never assume your opponent knows less than you.


I'd agree with that. Never underestimate your opponent. It's good sense.


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## Hanzou (Oct 1, 2020)

This isn't something that is unique to MMA. You're just seeing MMA nowadays because it's the most popular MA around currently. Back in the day, you had Karate and Kung Fu gangs in the US and other countries that would fight in the streets, in back alleys, and rooftops.

Additionally, you have youtube which is loaded with hundreds of thousands of instructional videos on how to potentially kill someone. I don't think it's a good idea to put out youtube videos instructing people how to choke someone or snap their limbs, but that is the world we live in.


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## lklawson (Oct 1, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Additionally, you have youtube which is loaded with hundreds of thousands of instructional videos on how to potentially kill someone. I don't think it's a good idea to put out youtube videos instructing people how to choke someone or snap their limbs, but that is the world we live in.


The genie is out of the bottle and there aren't any "secret techniques" any longer and no way to keep them secret if one were want to do so.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 1, 2020)

wouldnt stop orginsied groups, the groups themselves would make/have training programes.     Pretty much every serious/semi succesful group does this. 

Hell, some gangs have ex or current military in them to teach firearm skills and ****.


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## Hanzou (Oct 1, 2020)

lklawson said:


> The genie is out of the bottle and there aren't any "secret techniques" any longer and no way to keep them secret if one were want to do so.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I agree. The only issue I have is with teaching certain chokes in such a public way. Some of the chokes from submission grappling are disgustingly simple to pull off once you have positional dominance. Further, unlike headlocks and the 10 finger choke favored by rapists and thugs, submission grappling chokes are a lot harder to counter.


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## Ivan (Oct 1, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> High-Level:
> I only teach adults.
> 
> Our kwoon has no street presence, so it's not possible to "drop by". It's also not possible to join on-line.
> ...


This post is why we need a WOW react


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## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 2, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I agree. The only issue I have is with teaching certain chokes in such a public way. Some of the chokes from submission grappling are disgustingly simple to pull off once you have positional dominance. Further, unlike headlocks and the 10 finger choke favored by rapists and thugs, submission grappling chokes are a lot harder to counter.



doesnt the one/two handed grab the throat choke work pretty well?  Thats pretty much innate in some peoples nature.   i obviously mean if you have no idea how to break the grip it does.


Also thinking about the general topic,  Karate was banned in the USSR one down to comeption with samo, two because it was associated with criminal entities and 3 i think some karate people now and then fought police. (technically falls under criminal association)     It was only banned for i think best 2 decades.    And from the article i found on it, it was pretty much legit karate for maiming people.
(espcially after it got pushed underground/was used by criminal entitites)

Pretty sure Russia did Sambo the same way the U.S does wrestling as well, so there is a good chance a lot of people at least did some grapiling in school and know the basics, so could adapt that to fighting, alongside conscription that happened which meant the bulk of people got military training as well.   


If i recall my countries history, they used to let you have boxing duels in school, and when it was being removed they used to give you a caning to deter it.   until they edventually removed it.  Over the course of the 1900's it was removed.     That is also argubly safer than "street" fights, down to a safety net and it being at least organised properly.   these things generally got removed during the civililising of places, thats why dueling was banned and the like as well. 

Plus if you teach people to do it right, then everyone who has learnt to defend against someone doing it right has a chance.


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## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> doesnt the one/two handed grab the throat choke work pretty well?  Thats pretty much innate in some peoples nature.   i obviously mean if you have no idea how to break the grip it does.



The two-handed grab the throat choke works if the person has absolutely no clue how to break it, but it's VERY easy to break if you know how. There's also a pretty broad set of counters to it. I could teach someone how to break that choke in one class.

Rear Naked Chokes, Guillotines, Head and Arm chokes, etc. are a completely different ballgame since they're far more effective, are typically applied within a structure of positional dominance, and cut oxygen off far more quickly. They take a lot of practice to learn how to counter, and in certain positions only specific counters work. Even with all of my experience, if someone slaps a guillotine choke on me, I only have a few seconds to react, and if I don't apply the correct counter in the correct way, I'm going to sleep.




> Also thinking about the general topic,  Karate was banned in the USSR one down to comeption with samo, two because it was associated with criminal entities and 3 i think some karate people now and then fought police. (technically falls under criminal association)     It was only banned for i think best 2 decades.    And from the article i found on it, it was pretty much legit karate for maiming people.
> (espcially after it got pushed underground/was used by criminal entitites)
> 
> Pretty sure Russia did Sambo the same way the U.S does wrestling as well, so there is a good chance a lot of people at least did some grapiling in school and know the basics, so could adapt that to fighting, alongside conscription that happened which meant the bulk of people got military training as well.
> ...



No argument there. If the genie's out of the bottle, I suppose the best course of action is to give everyone lamps. I'm still concerned about teens learning how to essentially kill someone with their bare hands.


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## jayoliver00 (Jun 3, 2021)

O'Malley said:


> I was reading the news and I read a story that troubled me as a martial artist. In Colleferro, near Rome (Italy), 21 year-old Willy Monteiro Duarte was killed trying to stop a fight involving another 21 y.o. against brothers Marco, 26, and Gabriele Bianchi, 24, Mario Pincarelli, 22, Francesco Belleggia, 21, and another man. The five of them beat up Willy, who was killed by a kick to the head as he was lying on the ground. A few hours after his death, the group was making ironic posts on social media. The Bianchi brothers were long-time MMA practitioners. They were well-known in the region as the "Artena gang", as they terrorised the population, sold drugs and beat up whoever was in their way. Probably had ties with organised crime as well.
> 
> This is a very sad story, which got me thinking about our common passion. Sometimes, the attacker is not the "average, untrained guy". Sometimes, whatever training you have could not save your life. I also wonder how come their coach was still training them, considering their criminal record and reputation. It is a real disgrace for MMA and martial arts in general and I just wanted to share it. Thoughts?


 

Looks like they took the advice of many TMA and RBSD people with their anything goes for the street Larping.


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## Martial D (Jun 3, 2021)

Buka said:


> I get a little upset when I read things like what happened in the first post. Maybe I'm just too sensitive, I don't know.
> 
> I don't know if "anybody should be allowed to train". When I ran my old dojo, which lasted many years, prospective students had to fill out an application that was five pages long and asked a lot of questions. Some people told me I had no right to ask those questions. I informed them it was a private club, but you didn't really have to answer them. Then I pointed to the door. I'd do it in a nice way, but that's how I did it.
> 
> ...


Old post, but a thought...
Criminals will use whatever force multiplier they find useful or effective.

In the same sense they can pick up a knife or a gun, they will use whatever physical advantages they can get. Alive styles of martial arts will of course fall under this heading.

Attempts to gatekeep skillsets behind abstract concepts such as honor or respect while admirable, will always be doomed to fail.


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## Urban Trekker (Jun 3, 2021)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> I think, if nothing else, it's a cautionary tale to never assume your opponent knows less than you.


True statement, but considering that it was five on one, the result would've been the same by untrained guys if that was their intent.

My takeaway is not to rely on martial arts training alone, if you're in a place where it's legal to carry a firearm.


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## Buka (Jun 3, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Old post, but a thought...
> Criminals will use whatever force multiplier they find useful or effective.
> 
> In the same sense they can pick up a knife or a gun, they will use whatever physical advantages they can get. Alive styles of martial arts will of course fall under this heading.
> ...


Most times maybe, but not always. I grew up in the projects, as did some of my old students. We can pretty much sense a sheet heel a mile away. Besides, I never found the criminal element could withstand hard core, disciplined training. If they could, they wouldn't be criminals in my opinion.

And to me, "honor and respect" are not abstract concepts. They are very real. That might sound all hunky dory and Kumbaya-ish, but the children of my old students, and their grandchildren, are taught the same manners, discipline and respect that were taught in the dojo. They write or call and remind me of this several times a year.


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## drop bear (Jun 3, 2021)

Buka said:


> Most times maybe, but not always. I grew up in the projects, as did some of my old students. We can pretty much sense a sheet heel a mile away. Besides, I never found the criminal element could withstand hard core, disciplined training. If they could, they wouldn't be criminals in my opinion.
> 
> And to me, "honor and respect" are not abstract concepts. They are very real. That might sound all hunky dory and Kumbaya-ish, but the children of my old students, and their grandchildren, are taught the same manners, discipline and respect that were taught in the dojo. They write or call and remind me of this several times a year.



This is fabian quaid. Who almost made the Olympics. And drug dealer, debt collector and gangster.






There was a whe TKD gangster thing going back in the day.









						Quaid to be released from prison
					

HIGH-profile Perth drug trafficker Fabian Quaid is days away from tasting freedom after serving 10 years and six months behind bars.




					www.perthnow.com.au


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## Urban Trekker (Jun 3, 2021)

Buka said:


> Besides, I never found the criminal element could withstand hard core, disciplined training. If they could, they wouldn't be criminals in my opinion.


I don't think we give criminals enough credit.  I can tell you that in the environments that I grew up in, criminals tended to have better physiques by leaps and bounds over others.  That requires some discipline right there, in terms of diet and training regimen.  In addition, the life of a criminal is not a hedonistic one by any stretch of the imagination.  They have to choose needs over wants just like anyone else, if not more than others, especially when their own lives are on the line because of the things they're involved in.


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## Buka (Jun 3, 2021)

drop bear said:


> This is fabian quaid. Who almost made the Olympics. And drug dealer, debt collector and gangster.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He wouldn’t have had the opportunity to have joined my dojo. I was lucky enough (and it was all luck) to have had a perfect storm going. My dojo was next to the police station. All cops, as well as Firemen and EMTs trained for free. Half the drug unit trained or lifted there. They knew every dealer everywhere.

Some ex drug dealers trained there. One of our top instructors did four years in prison for breaking into a drug store in the state of Maine. When he got out, he walked into a dojo I was teaching at at the time. (This is going way back) Told me his story and said he wanted to turn his life around. And he did. Martial Arts saved his life. It literally did. Turned out to be one of the best Black Belts I ever had.

And a lot of times I ran people’s arrest records. Yeah, you weren’t supposed to, but I didn’t care. I had access. And I still don’t care. We were also lucky in that the day we opened, we already had four full time Black Belts teaching, and a half dozen part time ones. We had boxers, a couple wrestlers, some guys joined just to lift. It was a 6,000 sq ft place with a dozen bags (when they were all hung) tons of weights, chin up bars everywhere. We also had fifty students the first day we opened. 

And the application to join, was just that. You were _applying_ to join. That didn’t mean you were necessarily accepted. My place, my rules.

Drugs were all over the place back then. Bad drugs. I didn’t care if somebody smoked refer, but I did care, very much so, if they were doing other drugs. Again, my place, my rules.

This was before I became a cop. But I had been teaching at the Boston Policy Academy for some time. I knew more cops than I did karate people.


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## Buka (Jun 3, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I don't think we give criminals enough credit.  I can tell you that in the environments that I grew up in, criminals tended to have better physiques by leaps and bounds over others.  That requires some discipline right there, in terms of diet and training regimen.  In addition, the life of a criminal is not a hedonistic one by any stretch of the imagination.  They have to choose needs over wants just like anyone else, if not more than others, especially when their own lives are on the line because of the things they're involved in.


I know plenty of criminals. Some of them are even friends. (Hey, it happens.)


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