# true or false Ninja history



## sifu Adams (Nov 9, 2004)

I have to ask and keep in mind that I have no Ninja background, however I have been told in that if you trace the ninja history back you would find that they were not great fighters like amercan portays them.  I was told they had great abilites in steath tach.  they were poor fighters so they used the steath to kill their opponet to keep from fighting them.  I can see with the all black uniforms and the differant weapons they have to climb, throw, swing, ect.. that this might be true.  I am not trying to insult or down grad the system I just would like the oppinon of someone who trained in ninju  to inform me if this is true or if their is merrit to this belief?


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## Shogun (Nov 9, 2004)

You are half on the right track from what I know. if you mean poor fighters, as in two go in and brawl, then yes. However, The Ninja had exceptional hand to hand skills, but it was for escaping. remember, Ninja usually were working for a Daimyo, and sometimes carried vital info, or plans to disrupt the enemy's networks. fighting with someone and getting killed would make it hard to deliver messages etc.
I invite the higher ranked Bujinkan Guys to post here and give some better, non-general, info. thats all I can give now.

ps the Ninja techiques of yesteryear are very different in nature from the ones of today.


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## sifu Adams (Nov 9, 2004)

Thanks I can't wait to here some of the history of the system.  you said the tech are differnt from yesteryear how so?  and How is the Earth-wind-water- fire used in your system.  We use them in Hsing I.


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## Shogun (Nov 9, 2004)

I'll let the TSD guys tell you more about the Gogyo and Godai. They are pretty much like this:
Earth - stability
wind - evasive
water - blending
fire - piercing
void - absent (no thought/zero)
was that right.....
I have TSD videos, but I have the classical HSC, with all the Bujinkan material. Love the Shoden level videos. Hey Gmunoz, have you picked up any of the Shoden Montly lessons? great advanced material. They cover modern AND classical.

Later,
Kyle


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## gmunoz (Nov 10, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I'll let the TSD guys tell you more about the Gogyo and Godai. They are pretty much like this:
> Earth - stability
> wind - evasive
> water - blending
> ...


Oh yeah.  The Shoden monthly lessons are great!  An-Shu spared no expense when doing this stuff.  They cover both the classical technique and modern application.  Good stuff.


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## Enson (Nov 10, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> I have to ask and keep in mind that I have no Ninja background, however I have been told in that if you trace the ninja history back you would find that they were not great fighters like amercan portays them. I was told they had great abilites in steath tach. they were poor fighters so they used the steath to kill their opponet to keep from fighting them. I can see with the all black uniforms and the differant weapons they have to climb, throw, swing, ect.. that this might be true. I am not trying to insult or down grad the system I just would like the oppinon of someone who trained in ninju to inform me if this is true or if their is merrit to this belief?


good question... it will be interesting to see the different imput that is given...

you might want to ask in the japanese ninjutsu section. see what those guys have to say about your question too. good luck

peace


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## heretic888 (Nov 10, 2004)

> however I have been told in that if you trace the ninja history back you would find that they were not great fighters like amercan portays them. I was told they had great abilites in steath tach. they were poor fighters so they used the steath to kill their opponet to keep from fighting them. I can see with the all black uniforms and the differant weapons they have to climb, throw, swing, ect.. that this might be true. I am not trying to insult or down grad the system I just would like the oppinon of someone who trained in ninju to inform me if this is true or if their is merrit to this belief?



I've read some of the _Iranki_, a historical document detailing the attempted invasion of Iga by Oda Nobuo. Suffice to say, the portrayal of the Iga warriors as "not great fighters" is not what the author(s) seem to have had in mind. They are described as decimating Nobuo's samurai in "shoulder to shoulder" combat. They did make use of surprise attacks and ambushes, though.

The "black uniform" is probably little more than a myth. In any event, a ninja on a battlefields will be considerably different than a ninja on a sabotage mission.

This really should be discussed at the Traditional Ninjutsu forum, though...


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 10, 2004)

I don't have a high ninjutsu ranking but it _is_ about to become my main focus art and ( being the pedantic historian) I have done an amount of research and discussion on the art and its roots. Because of the age of the system and the system that inspired it, history of exact roots will always be a little dubious and up for contention. I found a link that supports that statement and gives just a little lineage recap . Find it at www.ninjutsu.co.nz/NinjutsuHistory2.htm

Speaking to a native chinese chin na playing cop friend in China a couple of weeks ago, being that history is requirement of their service entry, and he tells me emphatically ( as confirmed through prior discussions elsewhere ) that aside from samurai and sumo , any other art from Japan, was greatly rooted in chinese gongfu systems. According to him and what I 've read elsewhere, the samurai were the only real fighters in Japan for an extremely long time. These men train hard and fight hard and because they had done so for a long time, were obviously typically larger than your av village folk, and in fuedal times the small man, who was largely of farmer caste, was subjected to frequent violent raids on their villages. 

When the Japanese came in contact with china and chinese gongfu ( so the story goes ), japanese boy sees some aspects of chinese gongfu he thinks he may be able to take home and adapt to his own needs ( ie:- combatting/ defending against the samurai). I think it is a fairly well understood fact that in lieu of size over your opponent, tatic skill and strategy are extremely crucial factors to victory . Ninjutsu was first widely used by the farmers and the stories about their lack of proficiency may come from the fact as being so poor ( with some measure of thx to the samurai situation) to begin, they had only farming implements to use as weaponary, and alternate strategies needed to be incorperated ( giving birth to the " evasion and espionage " strategies as opposed to direct combat concepts).

I'm sure if you do a good a kaazar or google on it, you'll find alot more information you can come back and share. In the meantime, I look fwd to hearing myself from the higher ranking Bujinkan ninjutsu players.

What are you guys hearing and from what source??

Blooming Lotus


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## heretic888 (Nov 10, 2004)

> Ninjutsu was first widely used by the farmers and the stories about their lack of proficiency may come from the fact as being so poor ( with some measure of thx to the samurai situation) to begin, they had only farming implements to use as weaponary, and alternate strategies needed to be incorperated ( giving birth to the " evasion and espionage " strategies as opposed to direct combat concepts).



Uhhh.... no.

Again, this should be discussed on the Traditional Ninjutsu forum.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 10, 2004)

For crimineys sakes oh heretic one ! Like I said, if you have a different take or version, that's why we have this thread and no doubt we all be happy to hear it and read about it on the links you'll likely be equally happy to share  


Xie Xie 
BL


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## heretic888 (Nov 10, 2004)

> For crimineys sakes oh heretic one ! Like I said, if you have a different take or version, that's why we have this thread and no doubt we all be happy to hear it and read about it on the links you'll likely be equally happy to share



I'll be happy to share "my take". In the appropriate format.

What we are talking about here is part of traditional Japanese history, and is not appropriate to the American Ninjutsu forum. That isn't a diss on the AN forum or anything, but this discussion really does belong in the Traditional section.

Laterz.  :asian:


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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

That is because American Ninjas have little relationship with the real Japanese ones. Where the one has generations of history, knowledge and refinement, the former has but a few years of mix-and-matching with little to no resemblance to the legitimate  despite borrowing some weapons, and misunderstood words.


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## gmunoz (Nov 12, 2004)

Yeah, To-Shin Do lineage has no place here!


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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

It is probably the only one on the "approved" list that does.


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## Enson (Nov 12, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> I'll be happy to share "my take". In the appropriate format.
> 
> What we are talking about here is part of traditional Japanese history, and is not appropriate to the American Ninjutsu forum. That isn't a diss on the AN forum or anything, but this discussion really does belong in the Traditional section.
> 
> Laterz. :asian:


if it is regarding the original origins of the ninja then traditional might be the best place for this thread. heretic you might want to start a similar post over there so that way it can be discussed to its full potential.
peace


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## heretic888 (Nov 12, 2004)

I believe Mr. Blooming Lotus is already engaging in a thread like that as we speak. 

But, to note, its in the general Ninjutsu forum not the Traditional Ninjutsu one.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 12, 2004)

That _Mr._ Blooming Lotus would be a _Miss_ and you're right.  I am indeed ..so see  you over there.

BL


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## sojobow (Nov 13, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Speaking to a native chinese chin na playing cop friend in China a couple of weeks ago, being that history is requirement of their service entry, and he tells me emphatically ( as confirmed through prior discussions elsewhere ) that aside from samurai and sumo , any other art from Japan, was greatly rooted in chinese gongfu systems. According to him and what I 've read elsewhere, the samurai were the only real fighters in Japan for an extremely long time. These men train hard and fight hard and because they had done so for a long time, were obviously typically larger than your av village folk, and in fuedal times the small man, who was largely of farmer caste, was subjected to frequent violent raids on their villages.
> 
> When the Japanese came in contact with china and chinese gongfu ( so the story goes ), japanese boy sees some aspects of chinese gongfu he thinks he may be able to take home and adapt to his own needs ( ie:- combatting/ defending against the samurai). I think it is a fairly well understood fact that in lieu of size over your opponent, tatic skill and strategy are extremely crucial factors to victory . Ninjutsu was first widely used by the farmers and the stories about their lack of proficiency may come from the fact as being so poor ( with some measure of thx to the samurai situation) to begin, they had only farming implements to use as weaponary, and alternate strategies needed to be incorperated ( giving birth to the " evasion and espionage " strategies as opposed to direct combat concepts).
> 
> ...


My own sources are in general agreement with yours.  Wish I would have thought of stating the proposition in a "third person" attitude.  I received quite a few red points for saying the same thing in essence.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 13, 2004)

I don't really think it matters what person you speak in, sometimes just disagreeing is going to do it.  ( btw : pls see bright red spot next to my own post count )  ..whaddya you do ??  



cheers 



BL


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 13, 2004)

Oookay, would someone please mind telling me where the "oppressed farmers" theory is supported other than in Stephen Hayes books?


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 13, 2004)

Have you looked at the other thread yet, and if you did/do , can I have some rep points back???


BL


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 13, 2004)

Unless I find your statements supported by reliable sources - not. A. Chance.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 13, 2004)

........have you heard the one about the forrest and the trees???......


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 13, 2004)

Have you heard the one about Little Red Riding Hood?


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## Bester (Nov 13, 2004)

Ooohhh a Baka-Fest!
I want ring side seats! Wheres the popcorn?


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## heretic888 (Nov 13, 2004)

Bester said:
			
		

> Ooohhh a Baka-Fest!
> I want ring side seats! Wheres the popcorn?



Oy vey.   

Please, guys, can we keep this topic localized to the appropriate thread?? 

And enough with all the sniping, geez.


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## Gary Arthur (Nov 13, 2004)

Moving back on track a little bit.
Firstly when we are talking about the Ninja being bad fighters, where does this fact come from. Where is the historical evidence?
But regardless of that, we should ask ourselves the question of 
"Would the ninja ever need to fight?"
In todays world when we talk about fighting we think of either two equally matched opponents in a ring fighting for a trophy, or a couple of drunks outside a pub.
These are both situations that the ninja would not find themselves in either in the past or hopefully today.
Ninjutsu is not about fighting, and proving who is the better man (even though Takamatsu sensei was forced to do so on several occasions) it is about going through life, obtaining what you need and if attacked being able to deal with that situation and returning home safely, in the knowledge that you have acted both morally and legally correctly.
As martial artists we should never have to stand up and fight someone, as this kind of action just brings more violence into the world, and does not fit in with the ninja philosophy.
This is why if we look at a lot of ninjutsu techniques we can see that many are escapes from danger, rather than strategies for a stand up fight in todays sense of the word.
As for Ninjutsu coming from China, well much of Japanese culture came from China, but I doubt that the ancient Japanese saw Kung Fu and imported it, as Kung Fu is a modern form of martial arts of China. Even Wu Shu today is like a dance. Gyokko Ryu has its origins in China, but I can think of few Kung Fu schools if any that bear any resemblance to its movements.
And what about this farmer issue. Well sure farmers may have been Ninja, but they could also have been builders, merchants etc. This is possibly one reason that the Ninja arts have tools such as the Kunai (chisel) and Kama (Sickle) within them.
I think we must move away from the image of the black clad Ninja, and instead see the Ninja as people that lived ordinary lives but also had a unique knowledge of martial arts and martial philosophies.
The Ninja lived in Iga nd Koga right. (well probably not all) but if you had a family then you had to support them, just like today. I study ninjutsu but I have to go work to support my family, and in the past the Ninja had to support theirs. So its highly likely that the Ninja did farm whilst others may have hunted. In Iga it must have been very difficult to feed your family, so hunting may have been a better option. Hunting needs stealth which may have led to Shinobi Iri (Just a thought, but fantastic training).
But just because people farm, it does not necesarily mean we should look down on them as low class, remember samurai were paid in rice, and some were farmers. The class structure of Japan was formulated quite late and at one stage one was given the choice as a young man. Become a farmer or a samurai. Yet both were of the same stock.
The Ninja were originally defeated warriors, and high class rulers of Japan. One can even see members of the Emperors family marrying into Ninja clans if one examines the history.


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## heretic888 (Nov 13, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Oy vey.
> 
> Please, guys, can we keep this topic localized to the appropriate thread??
> 
> And enough with all the sniping, geez.



Meh, my bad. 

I failed to notice this thread was moved to the Traditional forum. Silly me.


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## heretic888 (Nov 13, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Moving back on track a little bit.
> Firstly when we are talking about the Ninja being bad fighters, where does this fact come from. Where is the historical evidence?
> But regardless of that, we should ask ourselves the question of
> "Would the ninja ever need to fight?"
> ...



Gary,

The Iga/Koga region was invaded at least three times by outside powers --- Ashikaga Yoshihisa, Oda Nobuo, and Oda Nobunaga all launched campaigns to control the area. Thus, these people did see their fair share of combat (which is probably the origin for such schools as Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, and Gikan ryu). 

Still, I think it would be inaccurate to classify them as "downtrodden" or "oppressed" people. From the 1300's on, Iga was an _ikko_ --- a self-governed, quasi-independent kingdom. They had no actual daimyo, as other regions did. The Koga group, as Don points out in his article, made a pact with the Rokkaku daimyo of Omi (where Koga is located). They also had a very high measure of independence and self-determination.

In both areas, not everyone in the region had training in martial arts. As with anywhere else, there were warriors and there were peasantry. They had different roles in the society, and different day to day lives.

The Hattori family were obviously samurai. As were the Momochi family, who at one time inhabited Iga-Ueno castle. In _Essence of Ninjutsu_, Hatsumi-soke quotes Takamatsu as describing his grandfather's Toda line to have been a samurai family from Iga. 

Even if you are going by the oral history, then many of the early "jonin" of "Iga ryu" were retainers of the Minamoto clan --- Togakure Daisuke and Minamoto Kanesada to Minamoto Yoshinaka, Iga Heinabe Yasukiyo to Minamoto Yoritomo, Ise Saburo Yoshimori to Minamoto Yoshitsune, Tozawa Hakuunsai to Minamoto Tameto, and so on. 

In _Essence of Ninjutsu_, Hatsumi-soke relates oral traditions that state that Iga Henaibe Yasukiyo was _given_ the land of Iga Hattori by Minamoto Yoritomo as a reward for his service (hardly sounds like a downtrodden peasant, neh?). This was purportedly the origin of "Iga ryu".

Laterz.  :asian:


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## Cryozombie (Nov 13, 2004)

The first time I heard the stories that "Ninja couldnt fight..." or didnt fight or didnt practice fighting skills, as they were too busy perfecting stealth was in the rulebook for the RPG "Legend of the Five Rings"...

 Ive never seen a verifiable source outside of that gamebook that said the same thing... even in many of the early and somewhat inaccurate history books I have seen like the Ninja book by adams, they talk about the Ninja's abilities in combat.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 13, 2004)

Out of everything I 've read here , that is probably the most uninformed statement yet. I'm about to post a few links, but pls feel free to search for yourself on samurai history ( linking army arts to confucism ) and ninjutsu history linking their conception to buddhism.


AS I said, I found a few links that implicated we are both correct to some extent ( :asian: ) , expect that one of these sites quotes ninpo is in fact a bujutsu after all :0 :0 :0 . "Violence is to be avoided and ninpo is Bujutsu"  . 

check these out 1. http://www.samurai-archives.com/searchst.html

2. http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/Defs1.html

3. http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=+samurai&meta=

4. http://www.geocities.com/remipulwer/Budo/TogakureRyu.html

enjoy

BL

btw : rep points can be restored via .well ....the same way you took them I'm guessing  , which after swearing black and blue I was making it up or just straight out uninformed , you'll be only to happy to do I'm sure  cheers Nim


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## Cryozombie (Nov 13, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> 4. http://www.geocities.com/remipulwer/Budo/TogakureRyu.html


 Im confused again... 

 Its my understanding from that link that some Samurai took teachings that wer created in JAPAN, and added them to his Samurai teachings and Japanese Spirituality... and created Togakrue. 

 So you have Kagakure Doshi, who created an art that incorporated " the roots of koshijutsu" into it... the only reference to the art and china... 

 Anyhow... He is the third master of this Japanese Art which contains the concepts of one aspect of a chinese art, and taught it to Daisuke Togakure, who added his samurai training and Shugendo beliefs... 

 How exactly is that proof that it came from china? 

 That would be like saying if I created an American Fighting art, based soley on street brawling techniques, but used a Taekwondo Reverse Punche, I created a Korean Art.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 13, 2004)

on most of the links I provided it refers to chinese origin in some capacity.

The story you read on that link, says the samurai ( army folks) tried to kill him and his mother when he younger. He himself developed the base of ninjutsu before he was in way samurai affliated . Also confirming "farmer caste " / " seperate and poorer mountain folk origins. 

Do you need some sleep by any chance???

BL

btw : pls see buddhist rooting and transgression ( particularly chan and warrior monk buddhism ( ch'an / and remember this is my phd dissertation focus ) and re-read the following quotes from that article 

" It was after a mysterious dream that he formed the Tendai Shugendo sect of Buddhism, "   


"It is important to understand the events leading up to the creation of Togakure Ryu Ninpo. Daisuke Nishina's father was Yukihiro Nishina, who was a highly ranked samurai in the service of Lord Yoshinaka Minamoto, the cousin of the first Shogun of Japan. When Yoshinaka Minamoto was only an infant, a samurai was sent from a rival family to kill him and his mother. Yoshinaka's mother escaped with him and went secretly to the home of a farmer who was loyal to their family."

"was forced to flee into far-away Iga to escape persecution. There he fled into the remote villages, hidden in the mists of a land of high mountains and thick forests. He changed his name to Daisuke Togakure, after the village of his birth. 
While he was in Iga, Daisuke was found by Kagakure Doshi. Kagakure Doshi was a shinobi, and the third soke of Hakuun Ryu, which was one of the original ninjutsu systems developed from the teachings of Ikai (Yi Gai, who brought the_ roots_ of koshijutsu from _China_). "


and these from one of the others 



"The samurai (or bushi) were the members of the *military class*, the Japanese *warriors*. 


Samurai employed a range of weapons such as bows and arrows, spears and guns; but their most famous weapon and their symbol was the sword. 

Samurai were supposed to lead their lives according to the ethic code of bushido ("the way of the warrior"). Strongly Confucian in nature, Bushido stressed concepts such as loyalty to one's master, self discipline and respectful, ethical behavior. After a defeat, some samurai chose to commit ritual suicide (seppuku) by cutting their abdomen rather than being captured or dying a dishonorable death. "

"


*Heian Period (794-1185)* The samurai's importance and influence grew during the Heian Period, when powerful landowners hired private warriors for the protection of their properties. Towards the end of the Heian Period, two military clans, the Minamoto and Taira, had grown so powerful that they seized control over the country and fought wars for supremacy against each other. "


"


*Azuchi-Momoyama Period (1573 - 1603)* When Toyotomi Hideyoshi reunited Japan, he started to introduce a rigid social caste system which was later completed by Tokugawa Ieyasu and his successors. Hideyoshi forced all samurai to decide between a life on the farm and a warrior life in castle towns. Furthermore, he forbade anyone but the samurai to arm themselves with a sword. "

"
Because these schools were all founded at slightly different times they may have a different emphasis.  Some of these schools were founded in times of war, others in times of relative peace.  Not all of these nine schools can be truely called Ninjutsu, some of them are perhaps better labeled as Samurai warrior arts.  However, because they are all taught together they are generally given the banner of "Ninjutsu". 

"
Because these schools were all founded at slightly different times they may have a different emphasis.  Some of these schools were founded in times of war, others in times of relative peace.  Not all of these nine schools can be truely called Ninjutsu, some of them are perhaps better labeled as Samurai warrior arts.  However, because they are all taught together they are generally given the banner of "Ninjutsu". "

"History is unfortunately (however understandably) Vague.  It is generally accepted as being a good account, but some of it may be incorrect.  This information has been researched, but given that much of this history has been trasmitted via "word of mouth" it is not possible to know how much of it is accurate"


*"Koto Ryu - Tiger knocking Down School*

The oral teachings of the Koto Ryu say that this art came from China"

"Ninjutsu was created in central Honshu (the largest of the Japanese islands) about eleven hundred years ago. It was developed by mountain-dwelling families in an area not unlike the American Appalachians, where the terrain is rugged and remote. Ninja families were great observers of nature."

"
It is generally accepted that the methods found in Ninjutsu originated outside of Japan. After the fall of the T'ang dynasty in China, many outcast warriors, philosophers, and military strategists escaped to Japan to avoid punishment by the new Chinese rulers. It is believed that Ninja families were exposed to many of these exiled people's sophisticated warrior strategies and philosophies over the centuries, helping to influence and shape what became Ninjutsu. "

"The Ninja were not particularly warlike, yet they were constantly harassed by the ruling society of Japan. They were routinely subjected to unfair taxation and religious persecution. The Ninja eventually learned to act more and more efficiently in their own self-defense. They used their superior knowledge of the workings of nature, as well as specific military techniques passed down through the years, as weapons against the numerically superior government armies."


the samurai no less .


"Sometimes a Ninja family would use its military or information-gathering resources to protect its members from becoming victims in a power play between competing samurai clans. Occasionally, a Ninja family would support one faction over another, if they felt it to be to their advantage. "

"
Ninja were not always primarily soldiers. Of course, certain Ninja operatives, or genin, were trained from childhood as warriors. But this training was usually precautionary. Genin Ninja knew that they might be called to help protect the community at some future time, but, they often spent most of their lives as _farmers_ or tradespeople. Ninja intelligence gatherers sent to live in the strongholds of potential enemies were rarely required to act openly. "

"*The Roots of Ninjutsu

*Although there has been an evolution of Ninjutsu as a life philosophy over the centuries, the fundamental principles have remained virtually unchanged. Togakure ryu Ninjutsu is more than 800 years old. Except for a relatively short period of notoriety prior to the reign of the Tokugawas, the art lived quietly in the hearts of just a few people. The Ninja were a separate society from the urban centered ruling class and the non-privileged classes which served them............... Consider the gulf that must have existed between the new American government and the American Indians during the first 125 years following the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Although this is an incomplete and potentially misleading analogy, it may give you a better understanding on how Ninjutsu may have developed as a_ counterculture_ to the _samurai-dominated_ Japanese society. "

"The samurai approach to combat was called bushido; it evolved from a general set of guidelines for the gentleman warrior into a formal discipline. The Ninja philosophy, though sharing many of the same values as the original samurai, evolved along a different cultural path. "

and so forth.  You didn't read the articles all did you TP

"The Ninja's sometimes devious tactics were seen by some as cowardly and disgusting"

"Since Ninja were not bushi (followers of the samurais' strict code of martial ethics) they were looked down upon as being uncivilized."

Sorry for the long post but I guess some folks need to have it broken it s.l.o.w.l.y.   

later

BL


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 13, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> The story you read on that link, says the samurai ( army folks) tried to kill him and his mother when he younger. He himself developed the base of ninjutsu before he was in way samurai affliated . Also confirming "farmer caste " / " seperate and poorer mountain folk origins.


Doesn't prove a thing. Having studied at a buddhist monastery proves nothing of ninjutsu's development.

Tokugawa Ieyasu came from a relatively low-class family also.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 13, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> on most of the links I provided it refers to chinese origin in some capacity.
> 
> The story you read on that link, says the samurai ( army folks) tried to kill him and his mother when he younger. He himself developed the base of ninjutsu before he was in way samurai affliated . Also confirming "farmer caste " / " seperate and poorer mountain folk origins.
> 
> ...


 Nope.  Did you read it?  It says:



> Daisuke Nishina's father was *Yukihiro Nishina, who was a highly ranked samurai* in the service of Lord Yoshinaka Minamoto, the cousin of the first Shogun of Japan.
> 
> *On his side had fought Yukihiro Nishina of Togakure, who was also killed, and his son Daisuke Nishina, who survived.*   Daisuke, being on the losing side of this battle, was forced to flee into far-away Iga to escape persecution. There he fled into the remote villages, hidden in the mists of a land of high mountains and thick forests. He changed his name to Daisuke Togakure, after the village of his birth.



 Note him FIGHTING alongside his Samurai father well before fleeing to Iga and learning Hakkun-ryu Ninjutsu, which he later refined into Togakure-ryu. 


 You mixed names and facts up.  Yoshinaka Minamoto, the Shogun's Cousin was the one they attempted to kill. 


 I'm going to give you the benifit of the doubt and assume that you didn't read the whole thing or did not read it carefully, and are not just making things up assuming no one will check.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 13, 2004)

just did a few edits, so pls feel free to re-read.


then re-read this, 


"Daisuke Nishina was born into a Samurai family. Sometime during his early life, he studied at the Tendai monastery on Togakure Mountain (Mount Hiei-zan) near his village. These early experiences were to play an important role later when Daisuke was to establish a system of fighting, survival and infiltration. 
It is important to understand the events leading up to the creation of Togakure Ryu Ninpo. Daisuke Nishina's father was Yukihiro Nishina, who was a highly ranked samurai in the service of Lord Yoshinaka Minamoto, the cousin of the first Shogun of Japan. When Yoshinaka Minamoto was only an infant, a samurai was sent from a rival family to kill him and his mother. Yoshinaka's mother escaped with him and went secretly to the home of a farmer who was loyal to their family. Yoshinaka was later brought to Kiso village in Shinano, not far from Togakure village.

Daisuke Togakure learned Doshi's warrior teachings, and added them to his own Shugendo beliefs, and the beginnings of Togakure Ryu where forged"

Fair enough Nim, but it still implys and specifically states and confirms in the other articles that his prior samurai experiences insighted the expansion of that into ninjutsu conception to combat them directly.


BL


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 13, 2004)

And...?


----------



## Blooming Lotus (Nov 13, 2004)

and you were wrong on my being wrong is what.  



Like I said, if you're going to be stubbornly narrow-minded about it and ignore opposing views and facts, the discussion is over from me.



Cheers

BL


----------



## Cryozombie (Nov 13, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> and you were wrong on my being wrong is what.
> 
> BL


 Studying religion in his youth is not the same as almost being assassinated, nor does it equate with him being a ninja before he was a samurai.  It means he studied religion at a monestary in his youth, and does not make your above statements, especially the one where you claim that Daisuke Nishina was the target of an assassination attempt in his youth, correct.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 14, 2004)

You have yet to bring forth ANY kind of believable facts, so your calling me narrow-minded and stubborn is a moot point.
Read Stephen Turnbull's book "Ninja - The True Story of Japan's Secret Warrior Cult". And while you're at it, why don't you e-mail Karl Friday as well. Then we can discuss this seriously.


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## Gary Arthur (Nov 14, 2004)

Heretic 888

Sorry I don't know whether your agreeing with me, or criticising me. I certainly agree with your post. However I did not say these people were downtrodden or oppressed people. I said that some of these people were possibly farmers that farmed to support their family. Not everyone that  learnt Ninjutsu was out their breaking into castles etc (if you believe in that kind of thing). 
Is farming demeaning? well Roman soldiers had farms, and until we in England had a standing army (approx 1642) some knights, soldiers etc were farmers.
What did the ninja do when they were not out on a mission, or before the Sengoku Jidai Period, before the ninja were used as spies etc.
The problem is with Ninjutsu is that there is very little ethnographic/social evidence of how these people lived. We tend to see them in black and white, i.e as field agents going on a mission to break into a castle, gather information or defending their homelands.
But what did they do the rest of the time?
And of course the Ninja saw their fair share of combat. However what I was trying to say in my post is that the ninja would not have stood up and fought like we do today. i.e. exchanging punches and rolling on the ground etc.
The ninja of old either wanted to escape or dispatch his enemy as quickly as possible. It was not about proving who was the better man, or teaching someone a lesson, it was about survival of yourself, your family and your clan.
If one takes a look at the different Ryu Ha, the techniques, Kata are not teaching one how to fight, but how to deal with an attack and survive. I feel that there is a subtle difference.
As for the question of whether the Ninja were Samurai or not is a question I think we will never get to the bottom of.
I feel that the term SAMURAI is used a bit like the term NINJA. It is a coverall to sum up a group. The word ninja only came about after WWII, before that they went by lots of names, Shinobi, Iga No Mono etc but would probably never refer to themselves by these terms themselves. Its a little like how we use the term, Viking, Saxon, Norman etc to describe people of the past. These peoples never refered to themselves as this. My town where I live for example is called Kettering, from Cytringham, or 'The Tribe of the leader Cyta'. these people we would call Angle's, but they probably did not refere to themselves as such.
It is quite possible in the past that any warrior whether they were from Iga or not were called samurai then as a coverall.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 14, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> post. However I did not say these people were downtrodden or oppressed people. I said that some of these people were possibly farmers that farmed to support their family. Not everyone that learnt Ninjutsu was out their breaking into castles etc (if you believe in that kind of thing).


True, but then you also have to specify which era in Japanese history you are referring to.



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> The problem is with Ninjutsu is that there is very little ethnographic/social evidence of how these people lived.


The way I understand it is that Iga was governed like any regular province, except there you had a number of families who shared the power rather than a single daimyo.



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> And of course the Ninja saw their fair share of combat. However what I was trying to say in my post is that the ninja would not have stood up and fought like we do today. i.e. exchanging punches and rolling on the ground etc.


Which is exactly why budo taijutsu principles and strategies are ill-suited to competitions.



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Shinobi, Iga No Mono etc but would probably never refer to themselves by these terms themselves.


I believe the term Shinobi no Mono is used frequently in the Bansenshukai.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 14, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Studying religion in his youth is not the same as almost being assassinated, nor does it equate with him being a ninja before he was a samurai. It means he studied religion at a monestary in his youth, and does not make your above statements, especially the one where you claim that Daisuke Nishina was the target of an assassination attempt in his youth, correct.


That quote was directly from the article and I guess this whole " argument " really does just  go to prove the tentative nature of our arts histories and being they are so old, the manner in which various information had transgressed. Did someone say else where that nothing has been lost ??? Hmmm......Don't feel bad though, because I'm sure we could have a similar argument for nearly any other art aswell. Happy to let it go really.but you're both still stubborn as heck!!



BL


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 14, 2004)

Then by all means, prove to us you're not as stubborn in your withholding of sources to back up your statements?


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 14, 2004)

Nimravus,

THat's _all _I have done since the begginning of this discussion and since it seems you're more interested in stripping my rep points than the correct.....I'm leaving it here. Hard to fight with yourself right?? Good luck with it.

Bl


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 14, 2004)

How does one even begin commenting on the apparent seriousness of someone who uses RPG web pages as sources for his statements regarding the historical ninja...? If those are the only sources you find noteworthy you are in dire need of some critical thinking.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 14, 2004)

THat link was one of 6 ,7, or 8 and said virtually the same as the others. Little self check if you don't mind. And your own links???



Sacarstic rhetorism, as I said, I see where you're at and where you're going with this, and being I don't need to yell louder to take the win, I'm just going to leave while I'm still ":bordering on lame"



Peace Nim



Bl


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 14, 2004)

Ever heard of an invention called "literature"...?


----------



## Blooming Lotus (Nov 14, 2004)

Yes, and through my studies, I 've realised that the further you go back, the less there is of that.  Ma histories having been disseminated via word of mouth ( making the bulk of it slightly contentious ) is quite generically accepted........  by the rational amongst us at any rate.



BL


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 14, 2004)

Posting a few links in no way makes anyone an expert. 

If you have not read documents in there original state or at least an accepted translation then all you have is something anyone could have made up. If you have not studied a system/style  and been close enough to the source to ask questions face to face then you do not have anything more than hearsay.

History is many times written by the victor and many histories are glorified by the person writing them. 

Odd bits of information may lead someone on an adventure that ends in discovery of facts yet unknown. However that same journey may also end up with conclusions way off base and colored by the adventure to see only their thoughts on a subject.

Now what is the true history I do not know but I do know that this discussion is starting to drift  Lets forget personalities and start giveing facts not thoughts


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## Gary Arthur (Nov 15, 2004)

The problem with so many of these posts is the way they rely on evidence.
In historical studies there are two types of evidence Primary and secondary.

Primary evidence is evidence recorded at the time by people actually knowing what they are writing. for example Lancelot writing about King Arthur or Daisuku Nishina recording in a scroll how he formulated Ninjutsu.

Secondary evidence is evidence that is not first hand e.g Gildas writing about King Arthur many hundreds of years later, based on older manuscripts also not written at the time of Arthur. 

Much of the historical evidence seems to be based on secondary evidence.

To make matters worse the Ninja were very secretive often using codes or poetic language if they recorded anything at all. Much of the histories we have is written by people who were not Ninja, and on certain occasions opposed to the inhabitants of the Iga mountains.

Some sources of information therefore are better than others. The Bansenshukai, Ninpiden and Shoninki are far better than other sources. And unless you have seen these sources yourself, then listening to someone elses interpretation could be wrong. 

All this exchanging of ideas is good but it reminds me of the scene in Life Of Brian where he drops his shoe. The followers stop and make up their own interpretation of what that means.

Sure keep the dialogue going, different points of view are interesting and promote more thought, and sometimes great evidence is uncovered. But don't keep arguing about who's right or wrong. Anybodies evidence when it comes to history is flimsly. We'll be burning each other at the stake next.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 15, 2004)

If the ninja were a specific ethnic group, what proof do we have of this being the case, and when did they become extinct?


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## heretic888 (Nov 15, 2004)

For what its worth, partial English translations of the Bansenshukai, Shoninki, and Ninpiden (among other things) can be found here:

http://www.ninpo.org/historicalrecords/histrec.html

 :asian:


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## heretic888 (Nov 15, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> As for the question of whether the Ninja were Samurai or not is a question I think we will never get to the bottom of.



I would suggest reading an excellent book on premodern Japanese society entitled _The World Turned Upside Down - Medieval Japanese Society_ by Pierre Francois Souryi.

Among other things, it goes into detail about various groups and movements --- including the relatively self-governing villages of central Japan --- and there's a few pages (pp. 190-192) on the 'Iga Commune', that was run by "_jizamurai_ without any real _suzerain_ or ultimate power. It survived well [...] and was mainly concerned with defense and war." 

The author then goes on to say that the commune basically collapsed when Oda Nobunga invaded in the 1580's, but guerilla warfare at the hands of these warriors continued until Tokugawa Ieyasu made some of the Iga people into special auxiliaries.


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## Don Roley (Nov 15, 2004)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Posting a few links in no way makes anyone an expert.



Can I get an AMEN from the audience?

The problem now of using the internet as a source is that you can pretty much find a web site that will back up what you say, no matter what it is. I would not be surprised to find a web site that says the Hatsumi is part of the conspiracy to run the world from the shadows.

So if you go looking for web sites for the purpose of giving what you say a sense of authority, you can find them. And a lot of web sites saying something does not make it true. I have seen ignorant people quote equally ignorant web sites to push their crack- pot theories for years now.

In general, when looking at a web page or a book I always look to see if the author is using Japanese language material or is dealing with translations and secondary sources in English. Whenever I have not followed this rule, I have been very, very disapointed. There are great books in English by people like Stephen Turnbull, George Samson, etc, and there are some great translations of the _Taiheiki_ and other historical works. I reccomend them highly. But despite all the great books in English every last one that relied on only English sources, even great books in English, was just plain bad.

I think it is because of two things. One is the ego of someone who thinks they can add something new to the perception of Japanese history without going through the trouble of learning even the language. These people usually tend to be trying to prove something and go in with that as their focus rather than the truth.

Another reason is that in the years it takes to get to the point where you can use Japanese sources, you tend to pick up a lot of background and general knowledge about the subject matter. You just have better tools to approach the information with. And those with agendas can't last long enough to get to that level of ability. If you learn Japanese history along with the language _and then_ decide to write about it, you are much less likely to have preconceptions.

In the case of Sifu Adam's question about how the ninja would do against the samurai, the question should first be, how do you define a samurai? All the people that are trying to say that the samurai and the ninja were so dissimilar are probably not aware that a good part of the time period we are talking about, there was no real distinction between "samurai" and normal people as you might think. There were people that were part of aristocratic familes known for their military service like the Minamoto and Taira, but _the majority_ of the guys fighting on the battlefields were peasents. So, if they serve for years in battle, carry two swords and wear armor, are they samurai?

Take a look at the life of Toyotomi Hideyoshi. He is very, very famous in Japan and you should have no trouble finding books and web sites that will back up what I will now say. Toyotomi was born a peasent. He joined the army of Oda Nobunaga and rose through the ranks. When Oda was geeked by his own general, Toyotomi was the one to pick up the pieces. Fairly soon, he was the imperial regent- shogun in all but name using a puppet emperor.

Would you say he was not a samurai? The bulk of the armies fighting when the ninja were known to be active were made up of people like him. Many of them had no big fighitng ability and either used 5 meter long pikes in formation, or used matchlocks. The sword they had was usually only a secondary weapon. Bigger armies were better armies than smaller ones, even if the smaller ones were made up of better trained guys. So a lot of guys born to farmers became fighting men- what some would call samurai.

Oh yeah, it was Toyotomi that made the social class a matter of law and stopped peasents from owning weapons or fighting. By that time, the country was just about unified and there was no need to have so many soldiers running around. By starting what is called his sword hunt, the soldiers going back to their farms with their experience were disarmed and less likely to rise in revolt. So if you are talking about the samurai as a legal class, we are talking about a time when the fighting had largely stopped. It was not long into the Edo period when you start seeing reminders from the shoguns saying that samurai were supposed to practice martial arts and people were commenting that not many guys who carried a sword had any knowledge of using them.

So, I think we should start with the premis that the "samurai" we are talking about may not be all that great themselves. Yes, there were great samurai like Tsukuhara Bokuden and Miyamoto Musashi. But a good portion of the folks fighting on the battlefields only had a short period of training with a sword and once the age of peace settled in, the samurai really became a bunch of clerks more than warriors. So, it depends on the samurai and the ninja with no real advantage or disadvantage based on job title.


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## heretic888 (Nov 15, 2004)

Nicely put, Don.  :asian:


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 15, 2004)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Posting a few links in no way makes anyone an expert.
> 
> If you have not read documents in there original state or at least an accepted translation then all you have is something anyone could have made up. If you have not studied a system/style and been close enough to the source to ask questions face to face then you do not have anything more than hearsay.
> 
> ...


 
Wouldn't that be nice .........  

What are you talking about anyway ???  I have never claimed expertise ( though in a law component of security guard upgrade course yesterday) found yesterday that legal definnition of " expert " and as fas as any court in the land and many abroad is concerned is 5 yrs by definition, which I have 3 and 4 times over.  And I _have_ had contact with Hatsumi Sensei, gone over his site, and spoken to several of his students operating schools here in Australia.


Yes I am aware trolls exist on the forums, but I really wasn't planning on playing this time.

boys ha  
blooming lotus
.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 15, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Can I get an AMEN from the audience?
> 
> 
> sure enough.........  speaking of truth, real world realities and fact, pls see legal definition above !!  ( as opposed to grand master say )  ...........  hate to be a legend in my own  ninja suit boys.
> ...


no, but just the fact of being in the army changed all of that , just as in any other highly covetted military position anywhere else in any asian society for the period.  For some history fact, pls feel free to search chinese gongfu history links.  Now _that_ is cross-referencing.

BL


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## Kreth (Nov 15, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> I have never claimed expertise ( though in a law component of security guard upgrade course yesterday) found yesterday that legal definnition of " expert " and as fas as any court in the land and many abroad is concerned is 5 yrs by definition, which I have 3 and 4 times over.  And I _have_ had contact with Hatsumi Sensei, gone over his site, and spoken to several of his students operating schools here in Australia.


I guess I'm curious how 15-20 years in a Chinese art makes you an expert on Japanese history... Also, which site are you referring to, bujinkan.com? I don't recall there being a whole lot of information there, aside from rules for participation in the Bujinkan, and contact information for the Honbu Dojo.

Jeff


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 15, 2004)

I didn't say I was an expert on japanese history, but I do know what varifying your facts means and how to go about it.  And on and on  we twist ha. Now _there's_ some classy trolling


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## heretic888 (Nov 15, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> I didn't say I was an expert on japanese history, but I do know what varifying your facts means and how to go about it.



You have yet to do so. At least on these forums, anyway.

Most of your sources seem to be from researching Buddhist temples and wushu in China, perusing internet search engines that fail to cite their sources, RPG webbooks, and anecdotal discussions with Hatsumi-soke and "some of his Australian students".

In any event, none of the above are primary historical sources about the shinobi no mono. Thus, I have yet to see any "facts" being verified.

And the "oh boys" --- indicating a not-so-veiled call for feminist moral high-ground --- doesn't help your case very much, either.

So, please, simply present the sources for your contention that "the Ninja" were, in fact, "downtrodden peasants defending themselves from samurai raiders". This is in agreement with pre-1988 Hayes sources, but not any other that anyone else here seems to know about.

Oh, and please don't try and sidetrack with essay links about the definition of koryu, budo, bujutsu, or what have you. They are really secondary to the discussion at hand.

Have a good 'un.  :asian:


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## Kreth (Nov 15, 2004)

=============
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Jeff
-MT Moderator-


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## Shogun (Nov 15, 2004)

Has anyone read the Book, "classical fighting arts of Japan" by Serge Mol? it has some good info in it about Koryu Jujutsu systems. I am wondering, why does it not contain info on Koto ryu, Togakure ryu, Gikan ryu, Gyokko ryu, etc.? it has some info on Takagi yoshin ryu, but the history is different than the Bujinkan's lineage......


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## Don Roley (Nov 15, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Has anyone read the Book, "classical fighting arts of Japan" by Serge Mol? it has some good info in it about Koryu Jujutsu systems. I am wondering, why does it not contain info on Koto ryu, Togakure ryu, Gikan ryu, Gyokko ryu, etc.? it has some info on Takagi yoshin ryu, but the history is different than the Bujinkan's lineage......



Lack of direct contact with the schools you mention. There are tons of schools he did not even mention in the book because of a lack of space, and a lack of personal experience with them. So he stuck with schools he had information and contacts on for the most part.


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## Shogun (Nov 15, 2004)

I figured it was just because he was basically dedicating the book to his teachers. What about Koryu.com? why no Booj arts there?


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## heretic888 (Nov 15, 2004)

Can of worms, shogun. Can of worms.


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## Don Roley (Nov 16, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> What about Koryu.com? why no Booj arts there?



Put yourself in their shoes for a minute. Decades ago the head of the Bujinkan, Masaaki Hatsumi, was given the chance to join a Koryu preservation society. In return for doing things their way, he would be able to join. He refused.

So, if the head of the art does not want the responsibility of being a member, why are his students pestering the web site started by other members wanting the benifits of being associated with them?

Sorry to go off on a tangent here, but I have seen some pretty nasty things written about that site for years and it makes me mad. People complain that they have not made an effort to study the arts of the Bujinkan and their history, but why should they when Hatsumi himself has shown no interest in joining them? Yet some of the most hatefull stuff has been said about them and I am sad that a lot of it comes from Bujinkan members.

Back on track....

I also happen to think that mixing the Koryu guys and us would be a huge mistake. For some Bujinkan members "traditional weapons" means revolvers rather than semi- autos. And the knowledge of Japanese language, history, customs, etc is just terrible. Oh, there are some guys that know what the heck they are talking about. But they are not the ones most active on the internet.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 16, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> You have yet to do so. At least on these forums, anyway.
> So, please, simply present the sources for your contention that "the Ninja" were, in fact, "downtrodden peasants defending themselves from samurai raiders". This is in agreement with pre-1988 Hayes sources, but not any other that anyone else here seems to know about.
> . :asian:


I felt I've done what I can,and spent as many hours researching and posting to support my statements as I'm prepared to.  Please feel free to extend your own search efforts at any time.  If you can't accept reality or possible alternative , you'll never have the truth  about much, despite what you read I really am done.  Extremely busy on a law component for security guard  upgrade so I'll leave you all with it.

BL


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## Don Roley (Nov 16, 2004)

Moderator Note. 
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Don Roley
-MT Moderator-


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## sojobow (Nov 16, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> I don't really think it matters what person you speak in, sometimes just disagreeing is going to do it. ( btw : pls see bright red spot next to my own post count ) ..whaddya you do ??  cheers BL


Excuse please.  Suspended for a couple of weeks.  I see you've jumped into the lion's den.  Point one:  Never bring up a chinese connection here.  Its true, but its hard to extract the concession here.  I did and I'm red like you for it.  They know and will admit it later on (just quote Hatsumi Sensei and they'll give in but with a caveat or two).  But don't get mad when they bring up your parents like they did mine.  Without any stated sources as time is of the essence, the chinese connection does exist and is proven even by the 2 hightest ranking members of the X-Kans.  It is also true that NOT ALL Ninjas were hand to hand fighters.  Some were experts in poisions, some were experts in Planning and Strategy Development, some were just messenger boys and girls.  Some were just girls FCS.  Some were women who used the natural assets of womenhood.  Some were 16 years old and could fight and some were 71 years old and couldn't fight.  At one point, none of them could fight very well which would be natural since the Ninja did not come out of the womb ready for warfare.  Ninjutsu did have its infancy periods.  Some ninja clans were just about completely exterminated (with the help of other ninja clans on the side of the enemy).  Some Ninja Clans were wiped out because of failed assassination efforts (after being turned over by other ninja clans to the assassinationee).  Some early Ninja were Hinin (sp.l) and hated as low-lifes.  Some Ninja were turned Samurai and loved at one point and hated at another point.  Why someone getting paid with land grants would just quit and go live as a farmer is strange rationale to me.  Guess just about every story your read has some truth to it depending on the year in question.  

Think I'd better stop now.  Don't want to be caught sniping.


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## Don Roley (Nov 16, 2004)

Sojobow, are you are willing to give sources for everything you say so we can check for ourselves?


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## Kreth (Nov 16, 2004)

Yes, if you're going to post in the Traditional forum, be prepared to cite sources...

Jeff


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 16, 2004)

*Acceptable sources do not include the following:*
  - GURPS
  - D&D's Oriental Adventures Source Book
  - Anything published by TSR, FASA, or other pen & paper gaming companies
  - Ultima Online, Final Fantasy or any other online RPG
 - Video Games / Board Games / Role Playing Games or related.
  - Movie Sourcebooks
  - Ashida Kim / HaHa Lung / Frank Dux
  - GeoCities/Tripod/Lycos/Yahoo or other free hosting sites.

* Prefered references would include:*
  - Archeological
  - First Person reports
  - Multiple Independants who have the same conclusion.
  - Leading researchers at Accedited Universities.


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## Kreth (Nov 16, 2004)

Cool, so I'm still free to cite Oni Musha as a source 

Jeff


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 16, 2004)

Who?  Chow won Mushi?


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## Kreth (Nov 16, 2004)

It's a PS2 game, with ninja... The title is supposed to translate as "demon warrior," although I'm not sure if that's correct usage or not...

Jeff


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 16, 2004)

Revised to include video games.


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## heretic888 (Nov 16, 2004)

Damn, I never knew we had so many gamers on the forum.  :supcool:


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 16, 2004)

I used to write them.....http://rustaz.com/personalinfo.html


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## heretic888 (Nov 16, 2004)

d00000000000d.  :asian:  :asian:


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## heretic888 (Nov 18, 2004)

From a recent post by Wayne Muromoto on e-budo about this very subject:

"[...]A matter of terminology. A spy can be anybody who is willing to do espionage work for you. The stoolie on the corner. The prostitute hanging out on Hotel Street in Honolulu. The Iraqi informant. Pay 'em enough and they'll rat out somebody for you.

But someone who supposedly plied his trade in the 'art of ninjutsu,' per a ninjutsu ryu, was usually a samurai, albeit from varying (and often lower) classes: Jizamurai, or those 'country bumpkin' samurai out in the boondocks, warriors who were adept at espionage and information gathering, trained warriors from specific ryu who had skill in certain unorthodox methods, etc. There's a difference. If you are talking about recognized ninjutsu ryu, such as the historic Koga and Iga, their systems came from warrior clans; the various jizamurai families who made up the Koga, or the Iga headed by the Hattori. 

Hattori Hanzo became one of Ieyasu's leading military advisors. At the time of Oda Nobunaga's death, Hattori Hanzo was already a minor daimyo of a fief worth 3,000 koku, so he was a 'samurai' even before becoming a direct retainer of Ieyasu. Even in Hanzo's father's era, the Hattori used various 'kashin' (samurai retainers) for espionage and guerrilla attacks in conjunction with their allies and superiors' battles, most notably at the Battle of Anegawa and Sambogahara, in which they furnished some 600 warriors for a night attack. For his work as a samurai, the Tokugawa gave Hanzo the nickname 'Oni Hanzo,' and considered him one of the three great braves of the Tokugawa alliance. 

('Lord Tokugawa has great samurai, lo!...
Hattori Hanzo is Oni (demon) Hanzo,
Watanabe Hanzo is Yari (spear) Hanzo...
Akumi Gengo is Kubikiri (head cutting) Gengo!'
--From the Mikawa Monogatari

The book I am grazing into (Ninja No Seikatsu by Yamaguchi Masayuki) notes that Tokugawa Ieyasu enlisted the Koga Bushidan early on in his career. Note 'bushidan.' It means a samurai army. Not a 'commoner's' army."


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## sojobow (Nov 18, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> *Acceptable sources do not include the following:*
> - GURPS
> - D&D's Oriental Adventures Source Book
> - Anything published by TSR, FASA, or other pen & paper gaming companies
> ...


Am I to conclude that a "First Person Reports" generated on a "free hosting sites" is acceptable or unacceptable? My own Sensei has a GeoCities site. According to you, his site is unacceptable as well as all the Kan's GeoCities sites. But, since this is your policy, I'll try to find other Multiples with the same conclusions. Quite a bit of my last post could be referenced with just about any Ninjutsu Glossary of Terms and post already a part of this Forum. I've noticed -and inadvertently I believe - one of the last posts in this thread extracted from an e-budo post proves the rest unless Wayne is not a "Prefered Reference."

But, since my own Hanshi is not acceptable, maybe I should accept this "Snipe" against him and move on.  C U.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 18, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> But, since my own Hanshi is not acceptable, maybe I should accept this "Snipe" against him and move on. C U.


Sojobow, 

It is my understanding you study Dux Ryu? If that is correct, his version of "history", while it may or may not be accurate, does not belong in the traditional ninjutsu section... Which is why Kaith posted:



			
				Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> _Acceptable sources do not include the following:_
> _- GURPS_
> _- D&D's Oriental Adventures Source Book_
> _- Anything published by TSR, FASA, or other pen & paper gaming companies_
> ...




_None of those "sources" are recognized as legitimate info on the X-kan lineage. So, I would disagree that the comment was a "snipe", and more a guideline for what is NOT acceptable as source material on Traditional X-kan ninjutsu._


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 18, 2004)

Take it however you will.  No slights were intended.  I'm just tired of fantasy theories, backed by comic book research and too many shaggystyle snack induced halucinations being argued about as if we were there yesterday.

This particular forum is for the acknowledged traditional systems as indicated in the charter.  "What Ifs" belong in the General, and the "NewAge" stuff belongs elsewhere.

If your instructor has a legitimate lineage, has been reconized as legit by other legit masters, then we can overlook his choice of webhosts.
Mind you, if he has a "Soke" title that he bought from a "Soke Society", and more degrees than a thermometer, well.....


BTW - Considering that a website and domain can be had for under $200/year, I and many others discount all the freebie sites.  Too much crap, too little accountability. (I do the hosting/domains starting at $135/year)


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## Don Roley (Nov 18, 2004)

The nice thing about the charter of this section is that it only requires you to be traceable to Japan. I have three books on my shelf, and if your style is not listed in any one of them I can say with 99.99 percent certainty that your claims of Japanese origin are bogus.


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## heretic888 (Nov 18, 2004)

Just out of curiosity, Don, what would the names of those books be??

 :asian:


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## sojobow (Nov 19, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Sojobow,
> 
> It is my understanding you study Dux Ryu? If that is correct, his version of "history", while it may or may not be accurate, does not belong in the traditional ninjutsu section... Which is why Kaith posted:
> [/i]
> _None of those "sources" are recognized as legitimate info on the X-kan lineage. So, I would disagree that the comment was a "snipe", and more a guideline for what is NOT acceptable as source material on Traditional X-kan ninjutsu._


If your post is accurate, I stand corrected.  I would agree that someone not directly associated with X-kan lineage, would have little to add to that subject matter.  I associated Kaith's 3 names as stating that these gentlemen are not a credible source *throughtout* the Martialtalk Forum on any subject whatsoever.  My defense position was that it would seem unfitting to denouce anyone from any credibility on any subject matter throughout this entire forum.  It would not matter what the names were, I would defend their right to speak unless banned.  My misunderstanding.

Would someone studying Kendo in Japan have a right to express their findings on the history of Kenjutsu?


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## Don Roley (Nov 19, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> Would someone studying Kendo in Japan have a right to express their findings on the history of Kenjutsu?



Anyone would. But the three people listed (Asida Kim, Frank Dux and Haha Lung) have extreme credibility problems and much of what they write is counter to known facts in Japan. Everything they say is suspect and needs to be backed up with other material to be believed. Since that is the case, you might as well skip using them and go straight for the supporting evidence- if there is any.

Oh, and Heretic, the three sources are the _Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, Ninja no Subete_ and the yearly supplement that Hiden magazine comes out with.


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## heretic888 (Nov 20, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Oh, and Heretic, the three sources are the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, Ninja no Subete and the yearly supplement that Hiden magazine comes out with.



Thanks for the info.  :asian:


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## BruceCalkins (Apr 27, 2005)

True Ninja are nothing like what you see on TV or the Movies. The Ninja began before that were said to be Assassins working for that Shogun. They were Farmers protecting their family and Land. This si why most of the Weapons of the Ninja and in Okinawa history were farm tools. The Sai, Nun-Chuka, Kama.. Even the Ninja-To was usually made from an old plow blade. not Carbon Steal like the Katana. The Masks were so the Samuri could not tell who they were because the Shogun promised that anyone to disobey him would "Die for 10 generations." The intire Family would suffer if a Ninja/Farmer was caught. The fighting skill was out of nassessity with no or little budo training. Many of the Ninja, Nin-Po, Ninjitsu, Ninja-Ryu etc: Schools you find have added Karate, Aikido and even Kung-Fu aspects to make it more like what we see in the movies. True Ninja Training is very basic and rooted in defense. This dosen't mean that these other schools have no history or that they are not true Ninja Schools. It just has grown. Like all martial arts. Their founders, Instuctors and Masters have improved on the first training to give the Martial Arts world something better and more Appealing.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 27, 2005)

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> True Ninja are nothing like what you see on TV or the Movies. The Ninja began before that were said to be Assassins working for that Shogun. They were Farmers protecting their family and Land. This si why most of the Weapons of the Ninja and in Okinawa history were farm tools. The Sai, Nun-Chuka, Kama.. Even the Ninja-To was usually made from an old plow blade. not Carbon Steal like the Katana. The Masks were so the Samuri could not tell who they were because the Shogun promised that anyone to disobey him would "Die for 10 generations." The intire Family would suffer if a Ninja/Farmer was caught. The fighting skill was out of nassessity with no or little budo training. Many of the Ninja, Nin-Po, Ninjitsu, Ninja-Ryu etc: Schools you find have added Karate, Aikido and even Kung-Fu aspects to make it more like what we see in the movies. True Ninja Training is very basic and rooted in defense. This dosen't mean that these other schools have no history or that they are not true Ninja Schools. It just has grown. Like all martial arts. Their founders, Instuctors and Masters have improved on the first training to give the Martial Arts world something better and more Appealing.


:bs:


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## Shizen Shigoku (Apr 27, 2005)

Ah, Nim - you have such a clear, concise way with words . . . 

well, the thread is about true or false history, so I guess we get to see both.

Legends and mythology are fun though, huh?


Oh and p.s. congratulations on your MT black belt


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## Don Roley (Apr 28, 2005)

Mr Calkins,
Welcome to the traditional ninjutsu section of martialtalk. I hope that you learn a great deal while you are here.

I have to caution you on your approach. I can tell that you are very inexperienced in martial arts and not very knowledgeable about the subject matter. Even still, your authoritive tone is a bit out of place and may cause some friction. There are many, many people that would be willing to help a newbie like yourself if only you would stop writing things that are, to be blunt, very silly with a voice of authority.

I understand that you seem to have no experience with ninjutsu. However, it is not hard to find a legitimate book on the subject and find out that the ninja *did not* use sai and nunchaku as you state. And your portrayal of the history, status and situation of the ninja seems to come from popular fiction rather than a serious resource. That is a common begginer mistake and with you being so inexperienced it is only expected that you would fall into that trap.

Again, we are a pretty nice lot about helping those that lack experience in the martial arts and ninjutsu like yourself. But it may irritate people when a person with your lack of knowledge accidently sounds like he is an expert as you seem to have done.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 28, 2005)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> Oh and p.s. congratulations on your MT black belt


Right, now I have proof both here and in real life I deserve to be looked upon as a nutcase...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 28, 2005)

Stop already. I want my mom.


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## heretic888 (Apr 28, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I have to caution you on your approach. I can tell that you are very inexperienced in martial arts and not very knowledgeable about the subject matter.



I dunno, Don. According to his profile, he's a "10th Degree Black Belt" in "Fusho-Satori-Ryu". Heh.   

I mean, with credentials like that, how can you _not_ trust his "history" without question?? I mean, seriously??

 :ultracool


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## rutherford (Apr 28, 2005)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> I dunno, Don. According to his profile, he's a "10th Degree Black Belt" in "Fusho-Satori-Ryu". Heh.
> 
> I mean, with credentials like that, how can you _not_ trust his "history" without question?? I mean, seriously??
> 
> :ultracool




It's the Black Star Ninjitsu that should really worry you.   

Hmm, now where have I heard of that before . . . oh yeah.  A movie.


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## Kizaru (Apr 29, 2005)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> I dunno, Don. According to his profile, he's a "10th Degree Black Belt" in "Fusho-Satori-Ryu". Heh.
> 
> I mean, with credentials like that, how can you _not_ trust his "history" without question?? I mean, seriously??
> 
> :ultracool


"Fusho"? Which characters is it written with?

&#23553;&#26360; (Fusho) "a sealed letter/envelope"

&#36000;&#20663; (Fushou) "an injury; a wound"

Is it "Injured Enlightenment Tradition" or "Sealed Envelope Enlightenment Tradition" ???


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 29, 2005)

well i think both of those names sound cool, and by cool, i mean totally sweet........if he's not using them, i will buy them from you. i will just use the english versions so i wont come across like a knob by not knowing any japanese though.


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## Shogun (Apr 29, 2005)

Lets start the bidding. screw ebay (I'm gonna get sued for that)


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## Kizaru (Apr 30, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Lets start the bidding. screw ebay (I'm gonna get sued for that)


How about we start the bidding at 500 Japanese yen per name? Funds transferable to my account at Sumitomo Mitsui Bank...


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## Cryozombie (Apr 30, 2005)

-Mod Note-

Please keep the conversation polite and *RESPECTFUL.*


Technopunk
-MT Moderator


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## blood shadow (Dec 31, 2007)

the truth about ninja history is that ninjutsu sucked then and sucks more now.


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