# You people were right, I should've clarified.



## PhotonGuy (Sep 30, 2014)

I've talked about, in the past, on this board how at my dojo some of the students, including myself, erroneously believed that to take the black belt test the sensei had to tell you that you could take it. Now, I know there are some people here who have said that at their dojo that for all the belts the sensei tells you when you can test, not just the black belt but all the belts. At my dojo you sign up for your belt tests yourself if you want to test for your next belt, every three or four months they run belt tests and if you want to test for your next belt you sign up, pay the fee, and take the test. This does not, of course, mean you will pass and whether you pass or fail you don't get the money back that you paid to take the test. This is how my sensei does it, if you want to test for your next belt its up to you to sign up and take the test, Im not saying its the best way or the only way its just how my sensei does it.
Now, as I said before, me and some of the other students wrongly believed that you had to be told you could take the black belt test even though you aren't told when you can test for any of the other belts. I've been thinking this over and I've been thinking about what some of the other people on this board have said that I should've clarified that with my sensei and I must say that they were right. If you want to get the right information you've got to get it straight from the horse's mouth, or in this case sensei's mouth. Communication is key for both teaching and learning. So I just wanted to point it out that I've realized that the people who said I should've clarified this with my sensei himself were right.


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## donald1 (Sep 30, 2014)

That's the way my school would do it too,  pay for the test,  maybe most schools (not quite certain on that one)  would be a shame to pay for a test just to fail.  But regardless the people administering the test are still taking time from their day to make sure it's done right.


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## Balrog (Sep 30, 2014)

I tell my students that the hardest part of testing is getting my permission to test.  I won't let them test if I don't think they are ready.  If I give them permission, that is a big shot in the arm for them, because I'm basically saying I think they have what it takes to promote; now all they have to do is go do it.


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## Buka (Sep 30, 2014)

I don't test anymore, but when I did I had open tests once or twice a year (everything except Black). Anyone could take the test even if they didn't have the required hours in dojo - a practice test for them. I have never charged for a test and I never will. If you pass, which over the years was a thirty percent pass rate, you paid the six bucks for your next belt, except green, brown and black, which were free. There was a rule in the dojo that everyone had to flunk at least one test on their way to black....just because. Sometimes I'd just promote someone without a test because they had earned it and there weren't any tests in the near future.

All my testing was two part, a written test on the dojo floor with printed questions and everyone on the floor writing with the test papers on a magazine, and then the physical test. One of the printed question on every test was "how many push ups can you do?" At some point during the physical part of the test, when they were dog tired and almost crawling, the paper would come out and they had to be able do the amount of push ups they had written down, and do them with proper technique for that exercise. If not, they were immediately dismissed. It wasn't just to be a hard ***, it was so they knew they couldn't bullsheet themselves. You just had to know what you can do, and what you were ultimately capable of. Some people quit, but, hey, that's what some people do.

My students who now teach do not do any of these things, (except for hard contact sparring, which is a given) I'm disappointed, I believe they are making a mistake, but, hey, they're their own men and have earned the right to teach Martial Arts the way they want. (but they're still wrong)

I have never paid to test, I never will. If I were to start as a student in a school that had testing fees, I wouldn't get involved in that process, I'd just train. I like the way BJJ does it's belts. It's why I haven't tested anyone in fifteen years.


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## Cirdan (Oct 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've been thinking this over and I've been thinking about what some of the other people on this board have said that I should've clarified that with my sensei and I must say that they were right.



Took you long enough. Now maybe you can let go of your gigantic ego some more and start to understand other excellent advice you have been given here over and over.
Do or don`t.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> if you want to test for your next belt you sign up, pay the fee, and take the test. This does not, of course, mean you will pass and whether you pass or fail you don't get the money back that you paid to take the test.



No offense. and maybe it is because I'm old.. .but that seems, to me, to be wrong on so many levels.

Like I said, I'm old, and it has been over 40 years since I started this stuff and close to 30 years since I trained a style that had belts, but I remember in Jujutsu the sensei scheduling tests when he thought someone was ready, it did not cost extra and only the person or people he said were going to test, would test. And it was pretty much the same in TKD (pre-Olympic) with my TKD teacher.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've talked about, in the past, on this board how at my dojo some of the students, including myself, erroneously believed that to take the black belt test the sensei had to tell you that you could take it. Now, I know there are some people here who have said that at their dojo that for all the belts the sensei tells you when you can test, not just the black belt but all the belts. At my dojo you sign up for your belt tests yourself if you want to test for your next belt, every three or four months they run belt tests and if you want to test for your next belt you sign up, pay the fee, and take the test. This does not, of course, mean you will pass and whether you pass or fail you don't get the money back that you paid to take the test. This is how my sensei does it, if you want to test for your next belt its up to you to sign up and take the test, Im not saying its the best way or the only way its just how my sensei does it.



And as has been said each of the 14 bazillion times you've brought this up... what a wonderful way to generate some extra cash!


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 1, 2014)

First it takes some degree of courage to say you are wrong. For that congratulations to PhotonGuy for correcting himself.

testing fees and testing times along with sign ups or being told to or even just being told you had just tested are always going to be debated. It is a good debate with logical arguments on all sides and interesting to see the different sides of it.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 1, 2014)

donald1 said:


> That's the way my school would do it too,  pay for the test,  maybe most schools (not quite certain on that one)  would be a shame to pay for a test just to fail.  But regardless the people administering the test are still taking time from their day to make sure it's done right.


Exactly. You are not paying for the rank you are paying for the test and you're paying for the instructors. You're paying for their time and skill that's necessary for administering a test.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 1, 2014)

Buka said:


> There was a rule in the dojo that everyone had to flunk at least one test on their way to black....just because.



If that's the case than a student might do bad on purpose on a test just so they can fulfill the requirement of flunking.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 1, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> No offense. and maybe it is because I'm old.. .but that seems, to me, to be wrong on so many levels.
> 
> Like I said, I'm old, and it has been over 40 years since I started this stuff and close to 30 years since I trained a style that had belts, but I remember in Jujutsu the sensei scheduling tests when he thought someone was ready, it did not cost extra and only the person or people he said were going to test, would test. And it was pretty much the same in TKD (pre-Olympic) with my TKD teacher.



As you said, you're old and your dojo was, no doubt, very traditional. Such places are run differently than the more modern places. My sensei just isn't super traditional although he has been teaching for a long time, he started teaching in the early 60s.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 1, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> And as has been said each of the 14 bazillion times you've brought this up... what a wonderful way to generate some extra cash!



Its not that much. A higher belt test will of course cost more than a lower belt test because of the more material that has to be covered. When I took the yellow belt test (level two belt) ages ago it cost $5. The last time I checked the black belt test cost $55. As I said, you're paying for the instructors and their time and skill so that's why you have to pay for promotion tests.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> As you said, you're old and your dojo was, no doubt, very traditional. Such places are run differently than the more modern places. My sensei just isn't super traditional although he has been teaching for a long time, he started teaching in the early 60s.



Oh callin' me are ye you young whipper snapper... why otta...wait right there til I git me cane...I'l show you old.... you young pup.........wait..what was I just sayin :uhyeah:


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 1, 2014)

Uh oh, cane fu.


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## Paul_D (Oct 2, 2014)

To my mind there of only one reason that you would allow people to sign up for a test whether they are ready or not, and could therefore fail, and that is so you can take their cash off them.

At my previous club as well as my current one, you grade only when you were invited to do so, once and only once the Instructors feel you were ready.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 2, 2014)

Paul_D said:


> To my mind there of only one reason that you would allow people to sign up for a test whether they are ready or not, and could therefore fail, and that is so you can take their cash off them.
> 
> At my previous club as well as my current one, you grade only when you were invited to do so, once and only once the Instructors feel you were ready.



If you go to sign up for a test and my sensei knows you're not ready he will tell you that you're not ready.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> If you go to sign up for a test and my sensei knows you're not ready he will tell you that you're not ready.



This directly contradicts your many comments in the past. Make up your mind. Either you can sign up for testing when you think you're ready, or you can ask if the instructor thinks you're ready.

The two are completely and totally different.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 2, 2014)

Couldn't it just be something he said as a joke?


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 2, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> This directly contradicts your many comments in the past. Make up your mind. Either you can sign up for testing when you think you're ready, or you can ask if the instructor thinks you're ready.
> 
> The two are completely and totally different.



OK I will try to explain this as best I can. Every three or four months they run tests at my dojo. When the run a test it is up to the student to ask for the form, fill it out and sign up. You don't wait for the sensei to tell you that you can test because he doesn't do it that way, instead you ask for the form. If a student goes to sign up and the sensei feels he is not ready he might tell the student that he's not ready but it is up to the student to ask about signing up, the sensei does not take the initiative on telling the student he can test.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> OK I will try to explain this as best I can. Every three or four months they run tests at my dojo. When the run a test it is up to the student to ask for the form, fill it out and sign up. You don't wait for the sensei to tell you that you can test because he doesn't do it that way, instead you ask for the form. If a student goes to sign up and the sensei feels he is not ready he might tell the student that he's not ready but it is up to the student to ask about signing up, the sensei does not take the initiative on telling the student he can test.



Is the form free or do you have to pay for it?


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 2, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Is the form free or do you have to pay for it?



The form or the test? The form is just a piece of paper and no, it doesn't cost anything for the student to get the form. As for the test, see post 1 and post 12.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> The form or the test? The form is just a piece of paper and no, it doesn't cost anything for the student to get the form. As for the test, see post 1 and post 12.



Don't need to see post 1 and 12, I asked specifically about the form, Originally you were talking about both and saying there was a charge then the story changed so I was asking for clarification.... thanks


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 8, 2014)

Well the form which is just a piece of paper isn't going to cost anything but it makes sense that a test would cost something. They're taking the time to test you so they have to get paid for it. As for it being a way to generate extra cash, what do you expect when they're putting their time into it? If you charge for lessons, that in and of itself can be seen as a way to generate cash. As for me, I would only want to go to a place that's primary concern isn't making money but rather to teach the art but I would still expect to pay something, for both lessons and promotion tests. The business aspect of the dojo should be secondary but a dojo is still a business. As such, you can expect to pay for lessons and promotion tests. If you teach and you get paid for it than you are generating cash.


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## Instructor (Oct 8, 2014)

donald1 said:


> That's the way my school would do it too, pay for the test, maybe most schools (not quite certain on that one) would be a shame to pay for a test just to fail. But regardless the people administering the test are still taking time from their day to make sure it's done right.



In my school I don't test somebody till they are ready.  In fact if I look a student and tell them it's time to test them in my mind they've already passed it.  That being said I only charge one fee for each test.  If for some reason they have to take the same test again I don't charge them again.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 8, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well the form which is just a piece of paper isn't going to cost anything but it* makes sense that a test would cost something*.




Not to me.

Having a school charging for lessons that is all fine, but charging for a test seems like a bit much...but to each his own I guess


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## Instructor (Oct 8, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not to me.
> 
> Having a school charging for lessons that is all fine, but charging for a test seems like a bit much...but to each his own I guess



I actually give my local students two avenues.  They can test with me locally and get one of my homegrown certificates for free, no test fee and no training fees.  Or they can join our organization and pay a very small fee and get the organizations certificate.  My local guys don't pay for lessons though.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 8, 2014)

Instructor said:


> In my school I don't test somebody till they are ready.  In fact if I look a student and tell them it's time to test them in my mind they've already passed it.  That being said I only charge one fee for each test.  If for some reason they have to take the same test again I don't charge them again.



Exactly how we do it. There are no tests. Students just put on a demo to show the other students their progress.


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## donald1 (Oct 8, 2014)

Instructor said:


> In my school I don't test somebody till they are ready.  In fact if I look a student and tell them it's time to test them in my mind they've already passed it.  That being said I only charge one fee for each test.  If for some reason they have to take the same test again I don't charge them again.



I don't know if my instructor charges a second time,  he too dosnt test students if he doesn't think they are ready


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 10, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not to me.
> 
> Having a school charging for lessons that is all fine, but charging for a test seems like a bit much...but to each his own I guess



And why is that? It takes time and skill to administer a test.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 10, 2014)

what skill dose it take to administer a test.  You tell the tester what to do and he/she is able to do it or not.
as for a testing fee, well, in my opinion if you pay for the lessons, school use time, and testing should be included as part of that. You have paid to be trained and graded so why pay again to be graded. Ok the paper the certificate is printed on coasts something and the ink it is signed with coasts something but most of the time these things are printed up in bulk and only a small amount of information is added when you test.
heck if the instructor is not willing to test the student when the student is ready to advance without charging him then the instructor is only a business man not a person who wants to pass on the information they have to deserving people


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 10, 2014)

sorry my last post was off form the OP.  In fact many of these posts seem to be. maybe they needed to be in a different thread


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 10, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> And why is that? It takes time and skill to administer a test.



It is part of your training in a martial art that uses belt rankings, it is not something separate in my mind therefore should not be treated as such.

Can someone go there and train for years, learn new material, get help in advancing and not take a belt test and be treated and trained the same as those who do?


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 10, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> what skill dose it take to administer a test.  You tell the tester what to do and he/she is able to do it or not.
> as for a testing fee, well, in my opinion if you pay for the lessons, school use time, and testing should be included as part of that. You have paid to be trained and graded so why pay again to be graded. Ok the paper the certificate is printed on coasts something and the ink it is signed with coasts something but most of the time these things are printed up in bulk and only a small amount of information is added when you test.
> heck if the instructor is not willing to test the student when the student is ready to advance without charging him then the instructor is only a business man not a person who wants to pass on the information they have to deserving people



Testing in martial arts isn't like grading a test with a scantron sheet where you just make sure the answers on the sheet line up with the correct answers, it requires good observation and judgement on the tester's part. Being able to pass a belt test is not just being able to do the techniques but also being able to do them well enough, with good form, speed, and power to be able to pass. And also, a test is supposed to measure your performance under pressure. Its one thing to be able to do the techniques well enough during a training exercise, its another thing to do them well enough when you're under the mental anxiety and nervousness that comes with taking a test. So that is why you're not just promoted when you're ready while just putting on a demonstration of what you've learned. You have to do well when it actually counts on a test. And it also takes time to test a student. The higher the belt you're testing for the more time it takes. So that is another reason they charge for it.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 10, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> It is part of your training in a martial art that uses belt rankings, it is not something separate in my mind therefore should not be treated as such.
> 
> Can someone go there and train for years, learn new material, get help in advancing and not take a belt test and be treated and trained the same as those who do?



Technically yes although I've never seen any student whose just stayed at white belt for years. There are some students who might stop at brown, though, and still keep training and learning more stuff but who do not care to advance in rank any more.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 11, 2014)

Green belt test for my students has taken up to 8 hours with 12  black belts grilling them on anything from history of my art and others to 100 push ups or sit ups, to doing the same form over and over being asked all sorts of questions on the form.  I do not charge for the test
most black belt test do not compare with what I put my green belts through 

But I will agree any test takes time and many people feel they should be paid for their time


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## Buka (Oct 11, 2014)

This will probably piss off a lot of people, but hey, to each of us our own. When I used to teach full time all students were told at the beginning, "Everyone has to flunk at least once in testing."

I did that as a lesson in patience, as a lesson in picking yourself up and doing it (or anything) again....and because I wanted to. 

Much to my chagrin, years later I found out that three of my black belts actually made it to black without having flunked a test. I was astounded. But what happened was - when we had a group testing it was one of the hardest, most intense, looooong training sessions we'd have at any time during the year. So everyone was welcome to participate in the testing - which was pure workout, no teaching. (I do not teach during testing, to me, that's not a time to teach.) So, say somebody earned their green belt, they weren't about to be tested again in six months. But if we had a test in six months, they were welcome to take it for practice and pure nasty workout. The three black belts I mentioned never missed classes, and would never miss a nasty workout. As the years went by my mind saw them on the testing floor and not having a new colored belt as a result. I mistakenly thought they had failed a test somewhere along the line. They never told me for twenty years.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 13, 2014)

Buka said:


> This will probably piss off a lot of people, but hey, to each of us our own. When I used to teach full time all students were told at the beginning, "Everyone has to flunk at least once in testing."
> 
> I did that as a lesson in patience, as a lesson in picking yourself up and doing it (or anything) again....and because I wanted to.
> 
> Much to my chagrin, years later I found out that three of my black belts actually made it to black without having flunked a test. I was astounded. But what happened was - when we had a group testing it was one of the hardest, most intense, looooong training sessions we'd have at any time during the year. So everyone was welcome to participate in the testing - which was pure workout, no teaching. (I do not teach during testing, to me, that's not a time to teach.) So, say somebody earned their green belt, they weren't about to be tested again in six months. But if we had a test in six months, they were welcome to take it for practice and pure nasty workout. The three black belts I mentioned never missed classes, and would never miss a nasty workout. As the years went by my mind saw them on the testing floor and not having a new colored belt as a result. I mistakenly thought they had failed a test somewhere along the line. They never told me for twenty years.



As I said, if you have the requirement that a student has to fail a test, that way people might fail on purpose just to fulfill that requirement.


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## Transk53 (Oct 13, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> As I said, if you have the requirement that a student has to fail a test, that way people might fail on purpose just to fulfill that requirement.



Slower learners or people who lack the confidence to test would fit that criteria IMHO.


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## Cirdan (Oct 13, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> As I said, if you have the requirement that a student has to fail a test, that way people might fail on purpose just to fulfill that requirement.



Point, but notice he said _at least_ once so there is no qota to "fill". Also trust me when i say a teacher will know you well enough to see when you fail on purpose. Easily.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 16, 2014)

So if a student is required to flunk, would a student who isn't ready be allowed to test?


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## Buka (Oct 16, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> So if a student is required to flunk, would a student who isn't ready be allowed to test?



Yes, always, it was encouraged. No charge, a great workout, and the opportunity to see what's going to be expected of you when the time comes.
Since testing was always on a regular class night, nobody wanted to miss a workout. The only night testing would never be scheduled was Thursday night. That was sparring night. We might spar on any other night or day in addition, but Thursday night was always sparring. It was the busiest night in the dojo. Most fun, too.

And sometimes, promotions were awarded without a test. But when that happened, if there was a test the following week, the recently promoted person would always join the test. Just because nobody wanted to miss a workout. Can't say I blame them.   IMO, if you don't love training, you probably shouldn't be in Martial Arts.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 16, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> ... the sensei scheduling tests when he thought someone was ready, it did not cost extra and only the person or people he said were going to test, would test. And it was pretty much the same in TKD (pre-Olympic) with my TKD teacher.


That's how I do it.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 17, 2014)

So how did testing work? Did a student have to be told he could test or did he ask to sign up? If testing was on a regular class night, was testing combined with the class or was it done separately?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 17, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> So how did testing work? Did a student have to be told he could test or did he ask to sign up? If testing was on a regular class night, was testing combined with the class or was it done separately?


I test my students in class for everything except shodan/ildan gradings. 

For kyu/geub ranks, I determine that they're ready to grade and give them the grading syllabus and the application.

For shodan gradings, I do essentially the same thing, but the grading is held on a weekend at the studio. This is due to time constraints; my dan gradings generally run over two hours, while a regular class is an hour (usually slightly more). Any goodies that the student receives for a dan grading (a keikogi/dobok, a certificate, and dinner) are included in the student's tuition. 

 I have no hapkido yudanja; I have not graded anyone that high since I joined the WHA three years ago, but when that time comes, the only fee the student will have to pay is their association fee, which if I recall, is on par with the Kukkiwon's registration fee.

I am unaffiliated with regards to kendo, so there are no association fees at this point.

As far as my time goes, it is an investment that I choose to make in my students.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 18, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I test my students in class for everything except shodan/ildan gradings.
> 
> For kyu/geub ranks, I determine that they're ready to grade and give them the grading syllabus and the application.
> 
> ...



So, with your 1st dan test you say it takes about two hours, how about the rank before that, how long does that take? Also, in my system there are three levels of brown, brown 1, brown 2, brown 3, and then black? How about your system, what are the last few ranks right before first degree black?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 20, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> So, with your 1st dan test you say it takes about two hours, how about the rank before that, how long does that take? Also, in my system there are three levels of brown, brown 1, brown 2, brown 3, and then black? How about your system, what are the last few ranks right before first degree black?


How many belts there are is honestly more a reflection of the school than the system. You can visit ten schools teaching the same system in the same organization and see thirty different belt systems between them (some have a different system for children, tweens, teens, and adults).

In teaching kendo, the adult classes are four kyu grades before shodan. It works well with how I arrange my overall syllabus. For cadet students (twelve to fourteen), I use five kyu grades. For children under twelve, six. I don't have any students younger than eight, but I suppose I could extend it to seven for the very, very young children.

In hapkido, I use only six belts prior to black; white, yellow, green, blue, red, and red/black, but eight geubs (one for white, one for yellow, and two each for green, blue, and red), and a nominal geub (red black).

By contrast, the school where I learned hapkido used a white, white/yellow, yellow, yellow/green, green, green/blue, blue, blue/red, red, red/black, red with two black stripes, and then black, for a total of twelve belts (ten geubs, one nominal geub, and a black belt).

It really all depends on how a school owner chooses to arrange and subdivide his/her curriculum.

Some schools depend upon belt tests as part of their income. Schools that do tend to have more belts, frequently with ascending testing fees.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 20, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> How many belts there are is honestly more a reflection of the school than the system. You can visit ten schools teaching the same system in the same organization and see thirty different belt systems between them (some have a different system for children, tweens, teens, and adults).
> 
> In teaching kendo, the adult classes are four kyu grades before shodan. It works well with how I arrange my overall syllabus. For cadet students (twelve to fourteen), I use five kyu grades. For children under twelve, six. I don't have any students younger than eight, but I suppose I could extend it to seven for the very, very young children.
> 
> ...



Way back in my Jujutsu days we had only 4 belts and back in my TKD days I think there were only 5 or 6 belts. My daughters Aikido school there appears to be 5 belts. And none of them, absolutely none of them had or have a time limit as to how long it took/takes to get the belt and there is was no time limit on a belt test other than the length of class. But the Black belt test in my daughters current aikido school are generally not done at her school and they are tough and take a long time but and there is no time limit. Also there are no black belts in the kids class, the highest they can hope for is brown there.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 21, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> How many belts there are is honestly more a reflection of the school than the system. You can visit ten schools teaching the same system in the same organization and see thirty different belt systems between them (some have a different system for children, tweens, teens, and adults).
> 
> In teaching kendo, the adult classes are four kyu grades before shodan. It works well with how I arrange my overall syllabus. For cadet students (twelve to fourteen), I use five kyu grades. For children under twelve, six. I don't have any students younger than eight, but I suppose I could extend it to seven for the very, very young children.
> 
> ...


I see. There is of course going to be lots of variance in ranking systems from school to school but this discussion I believe warrants the start of a new thread, one I will start on this board when I get around to it.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 21, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Way back in my Jujutsu days we had only 4 belts and back in my TKD days I think there were only 5 or 6 belts. My daughters Aikido school there appears to be 5 belts. And none of them, absolutely none of them had or have a time limit as to how long it took/takes to get the belt and there is was no time limit on a belt test other than the length of class. But the Black belt test in my daughters current aikido school are generally not done at her school and they are tough and take a long time but and there is no time limit. Also there are no black belts in the kids class, the highest they can hope for is brown there.



I do know sometimes you have to be in the adult class to get to a certain belt, as you said at your child's place you have to be in the adult class to get a black belt but I know of some places where you have to be in the adult class just to get a brown belt. Now, how do you get into the adult class? That also would depend on the place but I believe at some places it might work like this. If you're 18 or older you're automatically in the adult class. If you're under 18 you might be placed in the adult class if you're physically and mentally ready for it. Since we all develop at different rates, when a person gets put in the adult class varies from person to person.


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## Cirdan (Oct 21, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I do know sometimes you have to be in the adult class to get to a certain belt, as you said at your child's place you have to be in the adult class to get a black belt but I know of some places where you have to be in the adult class just to get a brown belt. Now, how do you get into the adult class? That also would depend on the place but I believe at some places it might work like this. If you're 18 or older you're automatically in the adult class. If you're under 18 you might be placed in the adult class if you're physically and mentally ready for it. Since we all develop at different rates, when a person gets put in the adult class varies from person to person.



I think most or at least many places let you join the adult class way younger than 18.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 21, 2014)

Cirdan said:


> I think most or at least many places let you join the adult class way younger than 18.



Like I said people grow and develop at different rates and I often do see people in adult classes who are much younger than 18. I myself was in adult classes when I was under 18 but if you're 18 or older you definitely will be in an adult class.


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## Cirdan (Oct 21, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Like I said people grow and develop at different rates and I often do see people in adult classes who are much younger than 18. I myself was in adult classes when I was under 18 but if you're 18 or older you definitely will be in an adult class.



At 18 definately. Every art I have been involved in would let you join the regular adult classes around 13 years of age. I would be interested to hear what arts let you stay in kid classes until 18. It actually never occured to me that some would.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 21, 2014)

Cirdan said:


> At 18 definately. Every art I have been involved in would let you join the regular adult classes around 13 years of age. I would be interested to hear what arts let you stay in kid classes until 18. It actually never occured to me that some would.



I never heard of any dojos that do that but at some places here is how it works when you sign up. If you're 18+ you're automatically put in the adult class. If you're under 18 you would be put in the children's or the adult's class depending on your physical and mental maturity. Although its not scribed in stone, there are some places that generally around the age of 15 you would be in an adult class. At my place, I was in an adult class when I was as young as 12 but like I said, there is no definite cutoff age when you would go into the adult class. Its just that at the time you sign up if you're 18 or older you automatically go into the adult class and if you're under 18 although there is no definite age when you would be placed in the adult class it would usually be way before you turn 18.


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## jezr74 (Oct 21, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I never heard of any dojos that do that but at some places here is how it works when you sign up. If you're 18+ you're automatically put in the adult class. If you're under 18 you would be put in the children's or the adult's class depending on your physical and mental maturity. Although its not scribed in stone, there are some places that generally around the age of 15 you would be in an adult class. At my place, I was in an adult class when I was as young as 12 but like I said, there is no definite cutoff age when you would go into the adult class. Its just that at the time you sign up if you're 18 or older you automatically go into the adult class and if you're under 18 although there is no definite age when you would be placed in the adult class it would usually be way before you turn 18.



When I was 18, if I signed up for classes with my 18 yo mate. And he went to the Adult classes and I went in the kids. I'd be walking straight out the door. (after my tantrum)


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## Cirdan (Oct 22, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I never heard of any dojos that do that but at some places here is how it works when you sign up. If you're 18+ you're automatically put in the adult class. If you're under 18 you would be put in the children's or the adult's class depending on your physical and mental maturity. Although its not scribed in stone, there are some places that generally around the age of 15 you would be in an adult class. At my place, I was in an adult class when I was as young as 12 but like I said, there is no definite cutoff age when you would go into the adult class. Its just that at the time you sign up if you're 18 or older you automatically go into the adult class and if you're under 18 although there is no definite age when you would be placed in the adult class it would usually be way before you turn 18.



Have you actually been to a club that would put people in kids` classes if you were say 17 and not particularily mature?


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 22, 2014)

I have put 12 year olds in the adult class before but they where more mature than the other kids and learned fast and had respect for what they learned. I also trusted them not to use what they where taught unless it was necessary. 
I have never put an adult in the kids class but I have had a 12 year old lead the adult class and to take an adult aside and teach him/her the basics.
I do separate those not mature enough for the adult class from the rest and when I do I tell them to smarted up and act mature or get out.
Now those that have a mental disability I treat with respect and have them do what they can with the whole class and then separate them for almost private training. This training is usually a watered down version of what the others n class are learning and may actually be taught in a much less military way with joking and laughing being part of the learning. These individuals need to learn but how and what they are able to do, and what they should or should not be taught must be taken into mind by the instructor


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## Transk53 (Oct 22, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> Now those that have a mental disability I treat with respect and have them do what they can with the whole class and then separate them for almost private training. This training is usually a watered down version of what the others n class are learning and may actually be taught in a much less military way with joking and laughing being part of the learning. These individuals need to learn but how and what they are able to do, and what they should or should not be taught must be taken into mind by the instructor



Good to hear that!


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 28, 2014)

Usually around the ages of 12-15 are students placed in adult classes, at least that's my experience at the places I've trained at. I've never seen students with mental disabilities train in the martial arts but it makes sense that they would be taught somewhat separately while still letting them do what they can to the best of their ability in terms of what the other student's are doing. Much like how in most if not all public schools, they have a special education program for students who are mentally disabled.

Anyway, concerning the fact that I should've clarified with my sensei about whether or not I had to be told I could take the black belt test or if I had to ask to sign up for it myself, for those who said I should've clarified, I thought you were supposed to shut up and train and not ask questions about rank, Im just saying.


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## Buka (Oct 29, 2014)

We used to have a large kids class at one time. Some of the kids who had been there for a few years used to help out leading the class, assist with new kid students, sometimes warm a class up for me etc. I used to have some of them take the adult class once in a while, and all the adults with rank would take them under their wing. Then, once that student felt comfortable enough on the dojo floor with the adults, I'd wait a month or so, then have him/her teach the entire adult class from start to finish. I'd line up and take the class along with everyone else. I'd tell the young student beforehand, "run any drills you want, have the class do whatever you want, speak loudly and clearly. If a question comes up you don't know the answer to tell them you don't know but will find out by next class. Just have fun."

The majority of the student body at the time were young men in late teens through early thirties. It was good for them (IMO) in many ways. It was fun for the young teacher, too. 

One time, I overheard one of my top green belts (he was 23) say after a class, "I didn't come here to be taught by a woman". (there was one female instructor, and a couple who helped out at times with beginners) The next day I had my wife teach class and had her do the favorite drills/games of the student body. One was bull in the ring which the guys loved. Just as they were about to start, I stopped class and said, "Rich, you didn't come here to learn from a woman, so you'll sit out and watch." I did that the next three times he showed up for class. The classes were wildly fun, people hootin and hollerin, clapping and spurring everyone else on. I made Rich sit against the wall and just watch each time. He was so miserable it was hard not to laugh.  It helped straighten out his attitude and he went on to become a good black belt. He also got choked out several times grappling.....by my wife.  (which was even funnier)

There's a lot of ways to teach, and a lot of ways to learn.


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## Zero (Nov 4, 2014)

It doesn't surprise me in the least but that said, maybe it should come as a surprise that a club allows you to sign yourself up to partake in testing (at any level) and to pay a fee for such testing (above and beyond no doubt the monthly fees you are already paying).
I am glad that with my times in judo, TKD, goju ryu and, for a couple of years, wing chun, it was the trainer/sensie/sifu that decided when you were ready to test - surely it is they who are best placed to determine at what stage you are?  Further there was no extra fee for the grading itself, you only shelled out for the cost of the new belt or the cost of the certificate for wing chun, in all cases quite nominal.


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## PhotonGuy (Nov 15, 2014)

Zero said:


> It doesn't surprise me in the least but that said, maybe it should come as a surprise that a club allows you to sign yourself up to partake in testing (at any level) and to pay a fee for such testing (above and beyond no doubt the monthly fees you are already paying).
> I am glad that with my times in judo, TKD, goju ryu and, for a couple of years, wing chun, it was the trainer/sensie/sifu that decided when you were ready to test - surely it is they who are best placed to determine at what stage you are?  Further there was no extra fee for the grading itself, you only shelled out for the cost of the new belt or the cost of the certificate for wing chun, in all cases quite nominal.



The fact of the matter is everybody has their opinion on whether or not a student should be told when they can test and everybody has their opinion on whether or not you should pay for a test beyond what you ordinarily pay for classes but the fact of the matter is that every dojo has their own system and one person's opinion from one dojo is not going to change the way things are done at another dojo. Besides, the point of this thread was not to debate on whether or not a student should be told they could test or if they should pay for it.

That being said, as its been pointed out on this board at lots of dojos you don't test until your sensei says you should test. And those people who claim to go to such dojos say they would never ask their sensei when they're going to test, not out of fear but out of respect. Well let me ask you this, why is asking when you're going to test disrespectful?


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## donald1 (Nov 15, 2014)

I'm not sure how it could be disrespectful but i assume they're are sometimes circumstances where that may be possible.

I have a similar question (I've never asked my instructor this but I've heard other students ask if they are ready)  and the instructor replies "I don't know,  are you? " what does that mean???


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 16, 2014)

Donald1 
not trying to be a smart *** here but it means if you need to ask your not ready


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## geezer (Nov 16, 2014)

A respectful way to approach this question is just to ask "What do I need to work on the most for my next rank?". The response will let you know if your instructor feels you need a lot of work or just a bit more polish.  

Personally, I've pretty much given up on rank. I haven't had an official promotion since the mid eighties.


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## Zero (Nov 17, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> The fact of the matter is everybody has their opinion on whether or not a student should be told when they can test and everybody has their opinion on whether or not you should pay for a test beyond what you ordinarily pay for classes but the fact of the matter is that every dojo has their own system and one person's opinion from one dojo is not going to change the way things are done at another dojo. Besides, the point of this thread was not to debate on whether or not a student should be told they could test or if they should pay for it.
> 
> That being said, as its been pointed out on this board at lots of dojos you don't test until your sensei says you should test. And those people who claim to go to such dojos say they would never ask their sensei when they're going to test, not out of fear but out of respect. Well let me ask you this, why is asking when you're going to test disrespectful?



To respond to your last paragraph and question firstly.  There is no overarching rule I am aware of that states asking when/if you are ready to test is disrespectful.  I am not sure why therefore you are even asking that question.  Unless of course you feel that at your school asking this would be seen as rude?   To generally ask when you may be testing, either for logistical reasons to determine your schedule or simply to ascertain whether your trainer feels you are up to it, does not seem disrespectful in the least.  It may be somewhat presumptive to be asking on your second day in the club or when you are clearly still a long ways off black belt or whatever belt is next in rank for you.  Or it may just be a by-product of low self-confidence or self-awareness  (which exists quite a lot throughout all types of sports and activities) when you may actually be more than ready.  But a genuine question in itself does not seem disrespectful.

Regarding your first paragraph, if it is indeed the fact of the matter that every dojo has its own system, that does not change the fact that some systems quite frankly suck and are not well suited to addressing the students' needs.  You are right that someone else's opinion may not change the way things are done.  But again, that does not alter the fact that what is being done is being done poorly.


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## Buka (Nov 17, 2014)

My students run schools/clubs and run their own testing for their students. They've been training and teaching long enough to decide how to do it and only ask me a question if they have a conundrum and want some input. For the last ten years all I've had to do with was dan rankings concerning them. 

As of last Saturday I turned that over to one of them. He's been doing this as long as I have and is a better martial artist and Sensei than I am. All I'll do from now on is watch the testing and smile. I'm psyched!


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## Zero (Nov 18, 2014)

Buka said:


> My students run schools/clubs and run their own testing for their students. They've been training and teaching long enough to decide how to do it and only ask me a question if they have a conundrum and want some input. For the last ten years all I've had to do with was dan rankings concerning them.
> 
> As of last Saturday I turned that over to one of them. He's been doing this as long as I have and is a better martial artist and Sensei than I am. All I'll do from now on is watch the testing and smile. I'm psyched!


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## Instructor (Nov 18, 2014)

I suppose whether such a request is respectful or not for me depends greatly on the details and context of the request. I have had students that will just achieve one rank and then in the span of a week are begging me to test again. My thought is chiefly what's the hurry? Wouldn't it better if you (my student) were good and this rank than just this rank. It isn't disrespectful to me but to themselves as they are rushing through something that deserves time and I think missing the good stuff in so doing.

Like it or not some folks are just belt hunters, they want waist decoration and wall candy to hang up. I don't know why, maybe it's ego gratification or something. I just know it rubs me the wrong way.

I don't get many like this but they are out there. Now if you've been working your butt off for a year and no test than that might be different.


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## PhotonGuy (Nov 20, 2014)

There have been some people on this board who said out of respect they would never ask their sensei when they would test. Some of the people on this thread have made good points, a student might ask their sensei when they're going to test so that they can work their schedule around it, or a student might want to know what they need to work on to be eligible to test. If a student is not being told they can test its only proper the student should know why they're not being told. It makes sense that a student knows why they're not being told they can test so they know what they should work on, so they know what they should fix, so that they can test. A student has the right to know.

As it is, there's been people here who say students should "shut up and train," and not ask questions about rank and to do so would be disrespectful. This one person on this board even claims that any student who asks any question about rank automatically gets a six month suspension on rank advancement. So there's some people who say students shouldn't ask questions about rank, period. Im trying to figure out why they would say that.


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## Steve (Nov 20, 2014)

I really think this depends upon the culture of the school and the specific relationship you have with your instructors.  There are some schools where it's perfectly okay to ask about it.  There are others where it's bad form.  And then there are schools where it may be bad form, but because of your individual relationship with your instructor, you can ask questions other probably couldn't get away with.

I'm just not sure what sort of conclusions we can draw here.  Too many specific variables to really come to any general rule.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 20, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> There have been some people on this board who said out of respect they would never ask their sensei when they would test. Some of the people on this thread have made good points, a student might ask their sensei when they're going to test so that they can work their schedule around it, or a student might want to know what they need to work on to be eligible to test. If a student is not being told they can test its only proper the student should know why they're not being told. It makes sense that a student knows why they're not being told they can test so they know what they should work on, so they know what they should fix, so that they can test. A student has the right to know.
> 
> As it is, there's been people here who say students should "shut up and train," and not ask questions about rank and to do so would be disrespectful. This one person on this board even claims that any student who asks any question about rank automatically gets a six month suspension on rank advancement. So there's some people who say students shouldn't ask questions about rank, period. Im trying to figure out why they would say that.


So basically you found out there is no right answer and everyone is different.  I personally would never ask when I can test and if someone asked me when can they test I'd automatically tell them they are not ready.  But I'm not the end all be all and others may be ok with a student  asking.  I don't care what color belt I'm wearing and normally never think I'm ready


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 20, 2014)

AS to what a student should work on for the next test they should ( I would think) need to know everything the instructor as taught them up to that point. Past material that they where tested on should have improved and they should still know it. They should be practicing all their forms and self defense all the time.  If they are only studying what they have been given since their last test they are missing out on so much and only belt hunting.
As has been said their is no correct answer to if a person should ask to test it the question has to many variables depending on the school, system, and instructors.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 22, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> There have been some people on this board who said out of respect they would never ask their sensei when they would test. Some of the people on this thread have made good points, a student might ask their sensei when they're going to test so that they can work their schedule around it, or a student might want to know what they need to work on to be eligible to test. If a student is not being told they can test its only proper the student should know why they're not being told. It makes sense that a student knows why they're not being told they can test so they know what they should work on, so they know what they should fix, so that they can test. A student has the right to know.



You're not going to understand this, but no, they don't have any such "right". An expectation, perhaps, but no such right. It's up to the teacher to teach in the way that they feel is best (which might involve giving information, or not), and it's up to the student to follow the instructors guidance. There's no such thing as "rights" here, particularly when it comes to information. 

This is where you go wrong over and over. What you think about the way things "should" be is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter. What you believe means absolutely nothing, and affects absolutely nothing. Note that this is not the same thing as saying that your opinion is worthless or similar&#8230; just that it's not really anything to do with the reality.



PhotonGuy said:


> As it is, there's been people here who say students should "shut up and train," and not ask questions about rank and to do so would be disrespectful.



That's not what's meant by "shut up and train", you know&#8230; you've got two completely unrelated ideas there, and are trying to force them together.



PhotonGuy said:


> This one person on this board even claims that any student who asks any question about rank automatically gets a six month suspension on rank advancement. So there's some people who say students shouldn't ask questions about rank, period. Im trying to figure out why they would say that.



Because it's up to the instructor how to run their class. That's it, really.


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## Buka (Nov 23, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> As it is, there's been people here who say students should "shut up and train," and not ask questions about rank and to do so would be disrespectful. This one person on this board even claims that any student who asks any question about rank automatically gets a six month suspension on rank advancement. So there's some people who say students shouldn't ask questions about rank, period. Im trying to figure out why they would say that.



That would be me! And it wasn't a "claim", it's the way it _was_. And I say "was" because, as I said a few posts ago, I've turned all that over to someone else just last week. But, see, it all comes out in the wash, if a student had kept asking, I would have kept making it six months longer.....but eventually he would have won out. It would've taken him 44 years, but, hey, it's just a number.


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 23, 2014)

In all truth  I knew a Grandmaster who made a student wait over 15 years to get promoted after the student get his green belt.  The student kept asking and the instructor kept putting off issuing the next test.  Yes the student kept coming to class and learning but he would not stop asking about  testing so the instructor kept putting it off.  Finally one day the instructor said in a closed meeting with some other instructors that he could not remember when that student asked about testing.  He promoted the student to 1st degree black belt the next day.  This happened back in 1974.


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## Hanzou (Nov 23, 2014)

At my school you just don't ask about your next belt rank. It's a sure-fire way to postpone your promotion.

Asking about stripes is somewhat okay though.


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## PhotonGuy (Nov 24, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> You're not going to understand this, but no, they don't have any such "right". An expectation, perhaps, but no such right. It's up to the teacher to teach in the way that they feel is best (which might involve giving information, or not), and it's up to the student to follow the instructors guidance. There's no such thing as "rights" here, particularly when it comes to information.
> 
> This is where you go wrong over and over. What you think about the way things "should" be is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter. What you believe means absolutely nothing, and affects absolutely nothing. Note that this is not the same thing as saying that your opinion is worthless or similar&#8230; just that it's not really anything to do with the reality.
> 
> ...



I remember it was you, Chris Parker, that said I should've clarified with the sensei about whether or not I had to be told before I could sign up for a belt test. You were also, I believe, one of the people who said to "shut up and train," and not to ask questions, especially about rank. You claim that those are two unrelated ideas and that Im trying to force them together, if they're not related than explain how? Clarifying something with a sensei, including whether or not somebody has to be told before they can sign up for a belt test, obviously involves asking a question. And in this case its a question about rank. So if you're not contradicting yourself, explain how?

And before you say I am not going to understand stuff, you don't know me so you don't know what I can and can't understand. Its hard if not impossible to make claims about somebody or to pass judgement if you don't know that person.

As for how I think things should be done being irrelevant on how other dojos are run and that its up to the instructor on how to run it, that's the point I've been trying to make with other people on the board. There've been people here who say that its wrong for students allowed to sign up for tests on their own and that students shouldn't have to pay for tests. Those are people's opinions but they're not going to affect how other dojos are run any more than my opinion is. See my post at #61.

Obviously I can't change how other dojos are run but Im trying to figure out why instructors might run a dojo a certain way or why they might have certain standards or methods. I want to see where other people are coming from.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 26, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I remember it was you, Chris Parker, that said I should've clarified with the sensei about whether or not I had to be told before I could sign up for a belt test.



Yes. But I wasn't saying you should ask about when you should test (to be absolutely clear here, I wasn't saying you couldn't, or shouldn't either), I was saying that, if you wanted to know how things were done in your school, and what your instructor was expecting/desiring, you needed to ask them.



PhotonGuy said:


> You were also, I believe, one of the people who said to "shut up and train," and not to ask questions, especially about rank. You claim that those are two unrelated ideas and that Im trying to force them together, if they're not related than explain how?



No. It's not something I've ever said to anyone on a forum. I've agreed with others saying it, but I haven't said it myself.

To your question, you really seem to not understand what the phrase "Shut up and train" is actually about… it's not really about asking questions of not, it's about the issue of over-thinking, overanalysing, and focusing on the less-important associated ideas, putting off the actual training, and thereby not getting the benefit/improvement that the training itself brings. In other words, you get the answers and development by actually putting the time and effort into the training, not sitting there thinking about frankly irrelevant side-issues.

That has really nothing to do with the idea of asking questions, particularly about rank, which is very much a side-issue, because, well, it has nothing to do with it. Asking questions has it's place… being aware of the structure of assessment and grading in your school also has it's place… but none of that is anything to do with the idea of getting out of your head, and just getting down to the training… the only place where you actually do get any real development and skill.



PhotonGuy said:


> Clarifying something with a sensei, including whether or not somebody has to be told before they can sign up for a belt test, obviously involves asking a question. And in this case its a question about rank. So if you're not contradicting yourself, explain how?



Because those are two separate questions. Asking how the assessments and gradings are handled in the school is one thing… asking if you can be graded, or if you're ready to be graded, is another. One is so you know how things work, the other can be presumptuous, depending on the school and instructor in question.



PhotonGuy said:


> And before you say I am not going to understand stuff, you don't know me so you don't know what I can and can't understand. Its hard if not impossible to make claims about somebody or to pass judgement if you don't know that person.



Little secret here… it's actually very easy to say such things. You're not that different, you're not a unique snowflake, you're really (at the core) just the same as everyone else… which makes it very easy to see how you're going to take things and process them. And even if it wasn't, the simple fact that you've been told it again, and again, and again, and shown absolutely no understanding or comprehension of it at all is a pretty big indication that, yet again, you're simply not going to understand. And honestly? I was right.



PhotonGuy said:


> As for how I think things should be done being irrelevant on how other dojos are run and that its up to the instructor on how to run it, that's the point I've been trying to make with other people on the board. There've been people here who say that its wrong for students allowed to sign up for tests on their own and that students shouldn't have to pay for tests. Those are people's opinions but they're not going to affect how other dojos are run any more than my opinion is. See my post at #61.



I read that post. You regurgitated what you'd been told, and put it forth in a way that showed no grasp of what had been said, or why, in a form that seemed to be telling everyone else (who had been trying to get it through to you) how it is. And then ended with a question that showed you still didn't get it (for the record, the reason it'd be seen as disrespectful is that you're seen to be second guessing your instructors judgement, putting your opinion of yourself over their judgement and assessment of you).



PhotonGuy said:


> Obviously I can't change how other dojos are run but Im trying to figure out why instructors might run a dojo a certain way or why they might have certain standards or methods. I want to see where other people are coming from.



That's entirely up to the instructor. You'd need to ask, well, everyone… and still not have a completely thorough view of it.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> To your question, you really seem to not understand what the phrase "Shut up and train" is actually about… it's not really about asking questions of not, it's about the issue of over-thinking, overanalysing, and focusing on the less-important associated ideas, putting off the actual training, and thereby not getting the benefit/improvement that the training itself brings. In other words, you get the answers and development by actually putting the time and effort into the training, not sitting there thinking about frankly irrelevant side-issues.


When taken at face value "shut up and train," sounds exactly like that, that you're not supposed to say anything or ask any questions but just do as your told. 



Chris Parker said:


> Because those are two separate questions. Asking how the assessments and gradings are handled in the school is one thing… asking if you can be graded, or if you're ready to be graded, is another. One is so you know how things work, the other can be presumptuous, depending on the school and instructor in question.


OK, now that you've explained that I see what you mean.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 2, 2014)

Thats strange you quoted Chris but my names on the post


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## donald1 (Dec 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> When taken at face value "shut up and train," sounds exactly like that, that you're not supposed to say anything or ask any questions but just do as your told



i understand where your coming from. but you are thinking about it differently, i know atleast 1reason (im sure theres more but i kbow this one to be true) im not saying dont ask questions but if you dont understand something the instructor is teaching then pay more attention. in my class today we were practicing xing yi dao form andi kept leaving out one of the techniques so before i asked which i watched him at that spot and saw through example. what im getting to here is its okay to ask questions but theres certain situations where you shouldnt ask and theres also situations to just pay better attention to detail. ask questions when its okay but it would be wise to know when not to ask. and if thats not convincing enough i dont know what to say besides whoever makes the rulesmakes the decisions. some instructors allow the use of questions some dont. they both have their reasons. i like when students as questions as long as the questions are either relevant to what were doing or before/after class. you may not like the idea of not asking questions but people who teach that way can still teach effectivly so obviously they are doing something right and thats what matters


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## Chris Parker (Dec 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> When taken at face value "shut up and train," sounds exactly like that, that you're not supposed to say anything or ask any questions but just do as your told.



Then I suggest you start to look past what you think things mean, look beyond "face value", and begin to recognise when you're being offered advice.



PhotonGuy said:


> OK, now that you've explained that I see what you mean.



I hope so.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 5, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> So basically you found out there is no right answer and everyone is different.  I personally would never ask when I can test and if someone asked me when can they test I'd automatically tell them they are not ready.  But I'm not the end all be all and others may be ok with a student  asking.  I don't care what color belt I'm wearing and normally never think I'm ready



My sensei expects you to ask to test if you want to. You ask him for the form to sign up for the test and he might tell you that you're not ready but he would expect you to ask for the form and if you don't than he would assume that you're simply not interested in testing. You, along with most of the people on this board seem to say that a sensei would know best if a student is ready or not and I agree, that's why I think it would be a good idea to ask the sensei, because he knows best.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 5, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> My sensei expects you to ask to test if you want to. You ask him for the form to sign up for the test and he might tell you that you're not ready but he would expect you to ask for the form and if you don't than he would assume that you're simply not interested in testing. You, along with most of the people on this board seem to say that a sensei would know best if a student is ready or not and I agree, that's why I think it would be a good idea to ask the sensei, because he knows best.


OK we got it you have told us this OVER AND OVER AND OVER.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 5, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> OK we got it you have told us this OVER AND OVER AND OVER.



Well than, what would you do in such a situation? You said you wouldn't ask about testing. And also, as I said, why shouldn't a student ask their sensei about testing since the sensei knows best and all.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 5, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well than, what would you do in such a situation? You said you wouldn't ask about testing. And also, as I said, why shouldn't a student ask their sensei about testing since the sensei knows best and all.


I feel bad  for this poor horse


What would I do?  Id just keep training.  I dont care about the belt color or promotions as long as im still learning new stuff.  You care great, ask away.......  me I dont


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 5, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I feel bad  for this poor horse
> 
> 
> What would I do?  Id just keep training.  I dont care about the belt color or promotions as long as im still learning new stuff.  You care great, ask away.......  me I dont



Well you made it clear you don't care about rank and so in such a situation asking wouldn't apply to you. However, what Im getting at is why some people would consider it disrespectful just to ask. Also, why if a student asks why that would mean they're not ready. The reason a student would be asking in the first place is to know if they're ready from the sensei who would know more about that than the student would. After all the sensei knows best and some senseis expect you to ask.


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## Steve (Dec 5, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you made it clear you don't care about rank and so in such a situation asking wouldn't apply to you. However, what Im getting at is why some people would consider it disrespectful just to ask. Also, why if a student asks why that would mean they're not ready. The reason a student would be asking in the first place is to know if they're ready from the sensei who would know more about that than the student would. After all the sensei knows best and some senseis expect you to ask.


Theres really no answer, photonguy.  At your school, it sounds like asking isn't just okay, but is expected.   In other schools, it's the opposite.

I'd expect most people would ask at your school, because that is the expectation.  knowing many schools are the opposite, one should be careful to learn the culture and expectations of a new school before presuming that it's the same as one's old one.


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## donald1 (Dec 6, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> is to know if they're ready from the sensei who would know more about that than the student would. After all the sensei knows best and some senseis expect you to ask.


maybe its how they were taught (just my guess) if it worked for them im sure they can make it work. maybe its part of patience. or another thought maybe it involves priorities? maybe the instructor dosnt want students asking about testing and expects their main focus to be on improvement on ones area of practice. i disagree with that last thing you said. im sure the sensei would try do whats vest but it would be hard to kniw what is best. (im not a sensei so maybe im overstepping my boundry a bit but ) perhaps one may try figure out what is best might be then figure out the closest option to it.
best of luck


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 6, 2014)

I'll explain my thought of not asking questions better:

When I'm teaching I want the student to practice what I am telling them to do. I do not want the rest of the class distracted by someone who is not instructing the class. I have a plan for the class each night and thing I want them to practice.  If I as the class if they have questions on something that's ok I have asked. If after class they approach me and ask in a respectful manner I'll most times answer the question.
What I do not want is someone constantly interrupting and distracting the class by asking questions or any other distraction.  The "What if' PEOPLE SOON GET THE IDEA OF NOT BEING JUST PLAIN STUPID ALL THE TIME AND LEARN THAT ALMOST ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE and that they are going to be the one demonstrated on and the demo is going tto get harder with every "what if"


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## Tez3 (Dec 6, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> I'll explain my thought of not asking questions better:
> 
> _*When I'm teaching I want the student to practice what I am telling them to do. I do not want the rest of the class distracted by someone who is not instructing the class. I have a plan for the class each night and thing I want them to practice.  If I as the class if they have questions on something that's ok I have asked. If after class they approach me and ask in a respectful manner I'll most times answer the question.*_
> What I do not want is someone constantly interrupting and distracting the class by asking questions or any other distraction.  The "What if' PEOPLE SOON GET THE IDEA OF NOT BEING JUST PLAIN STUPID ALL THE TIME AND LEARN THAT ALMOST ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE and that they are going to be the one demonstrated on and the demo is going tto get harder with every "what if"



That just about goes for every situation where there is a person teaching so shouldn't be a surprise but it always is to someone. It doesn't matter what you are teaching there is always someone who has to ask a question just before you explain what it is they want to know! There's the one too who as you are going round to check everyone knows what they are doing has to run across to you asking how to do something. They are just a little annoying the ones that really annoy me (both as an instructor and a student) is when you are partnered with them after seeing how the instructor has demo'd something he wants you to practice insists on 'teaching' you a so called better way which makes it hard for you to do what the instructor has shown. As an instructor it makes you wonder why you bother!


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 7, 2014)

So, at some dojos they wouldn't want you to ask about testing because they would rather you focus on improving in your area of practice. Well, tests are usually based on what you're taught and what you do in practice, at least they are at my place, so if you want to do well on a test you would have to focus on what you're taught during practice. Some people have said that for a student to ask when they will test is disrespectful because they're questioning the sensei's judgement. Well, that would depend. If a student has a mindset along the lines of, "I should be testing, my sensei should get with the program and let me test," that obviously would be questioning the sensei's judgement and it would be disrespectful but to ask what you need to do or work on in able to test would be a different story. There is this guy at my dojo who wanted to test for his black belt. My sensei said he wasn't ready, that he needed to work more on his roundhouse kick and that he should test the next time. So he worked on his roundhouse and he signed up and passed the test the next time around and got a black belt. The first time, the sensei told the student that he wasn't ready and told him why he wasn't ready. That way the student knew what he needed to work on, he knew what he needed to fix. I don't see why it would be wrong for a student to ask a sensei what they need to do to get to the next belt. This would include the black belt but not be limited to that. For a student to say, "Sensei, I would like to get a black belt (or whatever belt happens to be the next one up), what do I need to do?" I don't see how that would be questioning the sensei's judgement. On the contrary, a student would be asking for their sensei's advice so if anything they would be trusting their sensei's judgement not questioning it. So if anybody thinks that would be disrespectful I would like to hear, or actually since this is a message board, read about why it would be. If you disagree with me than say why, Im not saying disagreement is bad or unwelcome on the contrary a person can learn by other people disagreeing with them and they might change their viewpoint when they hear other people's viewpoints. It would be boring if everybody always agreed. So, anybody who thinks its wrong to ask a sensei such stuff, to ask for a sensei's advice please, I would like to hear why. And obviously, asking such questions should be done at the proper time. You certainly wouldn't ask such questions in the middle of class or in the middle of a drill but before or after class, those would be appropriate times to ask. 

After all, "You've got a mouth, you've got to use it."


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 7, 2014)

So are you saying the instructor dose not know enough to teach the student what is needed for the next rank, and that the instructor is not going to instruct the student with the information without being asked?
I would think that any competent instructor would know what they student was learning and how well the student was learning. He would also know if he/she needed to give more information or have the student improve on any material needed for the next rank. Instructors should be aware of what knowledge he is passing on and if it is being received and done correctly by the students. He also knows what his standards are for reaching a certain rank.
Some instructors pass out programs or sheets of paper saying what is needed for each rank. When a student has all the material on the sheet of paper they know they have what is needed to test but they may not know if they can do the techniques good enough to pass the test so they give the paper to the instructor and if he says they can test they should pass. That same instructor may also say " you need to practice this more or this form needs to be learned better.  Is this the same as asking what is needed no it is saying you think you have learned all the martial on the paper and await learning more.  This is what you have suggested above but in a different manner.
In some schools that are "old " in their ways there are no test you test every time you step on the floor.  In some of them it is up to a senior student to talk to the head instructor and ask if you can be tested.In both of these types of schools the student is there to learn not get belts until someone else decides the student is ready.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 7, 2014)

Once again there is no right or wrong it all depends on what type of school your in.
But then again some schools youth students and under black belt adults call the black belts by their first names in class. In a school like that I would not doubt that people tell the instructor they are ready to test, although I know a few of these school that one might get knocked on their butt if they did. So once again it depends on the school and no one way is correct these days across the spectrum of the arts.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 9, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> So are you saying the instructor dose not know enough to teach the student what is needed for the next rank, and that the instructor is not going to instruct the student with the information without being asked?
> I would think that any competent instructor would know what they student was learning and how well the student was learning. He would also know if he/she needed to give more information or have the student improve on any material needed for the next rank. Instructors should be aware of what knowledge he is passing on and if it is being received and done correctly by the students. He also knows what his standards are for reaching a certain rank.
> Some instructors pass out programs or sheets of paper saying what is needed for each rank. When a student has all the material on the sheet of paper they know they have what is needed to test but they may not know if they can do the techniques good enough to pass the test so they give the paper to the instructor and if he says they can test they should pass. That same instructor may also say " you need to practice this more or this form needs to be learned better.  Is this the same as asking what is needed no it is saying you think you have learned all the martial on the paper and await learning more.  This is what you have suggested above but in a different manner.
> In some schools that are "old " in their ways there are no test you test every time you step on the floor.  In some of them it is up to a senior student to talk to the head instructor and ask if you can be tested.In both of these types of schools the student is there to learn not get belts until someone else decides the student is ready.



Some instructors won't tell you what you need to work on for the next belt without being asked. My instructor is an example of that. My instructor will give you pointers and corrections during class but he won't tell you what you need to work on for the next belt unless you ask him. I already talked about a student at my dojo who was told by the sensei that he had to work on his roundhouse more to be eligible to get a black belt. Why did the sensei tell him? Because the student asked. Apparently though, some people think its disrespectful to ask a sensei such stuff, Im trying to find out why they would say that.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 10, 2014)

You're missing what would be considered disrespectful… asking about how things are done in the class is not what anyone has suggested could be considered as such… and this has all been answered many times throughout this, and previous threads.


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2014)

These days practicalities have to take priority over 'old fashioned' ways of doing things. When I trained Wado for example we had a syllabus and we would ask when the instructor thought we would be ready to grade because the gradings were held in the courses which were in towns and cities quite a distance from us so we'd have to book time off work, a hotel/bed and breakfast and arrange child care that sort of thing so telling us months ahead was practical. Most likely we would go on the course anyway but if we knew we were grading we'd make an extra effort to get there. those with work and families will know how difficult it can be sometimes to spend money not on household/family things and to spend time away from families, taking them with you often incurred more expense.
In TSD students ask when they are likely to grade because most of our students are likely to be on exercise or deployment so we have to fit in around that.
No one thinks it disrespectful to ask, instructors have to fit things in with their work and families too.


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## Transk53 (Dec 10, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> It would be boring if everybody always agreed. So, anybody who thinks its wrong to ask a sensei such stuff, to ask for a sensei's advice please, I would like to hear why. And obviously, asking such questions should be done at the proper time. You certainly wouldn't ask such questions in the middle of class or in the middle of a drill but before or after class, those would be appropriate times to ask.



Sorry I am confused again. You seem to me to be constantly asking when to test for a Black belt? Surely you're instructor knows best. I say because when training I constantly ask questions during down time. Yeah as I say, confused as to what the point is.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 19, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Sorry I am confused again. You seem to me to be constantly asking when to test for a Black belt? Surely you're instructor knows best. I say because when training I constantly ask questions during down time. Yeah as I say, confused as to what the point is.


What are you confused about?


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> What are you confused about?



Why you ask the same question 10,000 different ways. Even though you've gotten the same answers every time. 

Just a guess. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## donald1 (Dec 20, 2014)

i agree with transk, if its a good instructor you dont need to ask. when the time is right the instructor will promote when he sees thestudent has met a certain standard. if this is how the instrucuctor works good for him. but some will allow questions, good for him too. either way when a student works with one of those students, the important thing to do is DONT ARGUE! their dojo their rules. i could understand a student qurious when they will get their next rank. but if the instructor dosnt want to answer his wishes should be respected too. 

this is me to bigtime... i ask my instructor multiple questions every class (i make sure to do it at apropriate times afcoarse)


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 20, 2014)

donald1 said:


> i agree with transk, if its a good instructor you dont need to ask. when the time is right the instructor will promote when he sees thestudent has met a certain standard. if this is how the instrucuctor works good for him. but some will allow questions, good for him too. either way when a student works with one of those students, the important thing to do is DONT ARGUE! their dojo their rules. i could understand a student qurious when they will get their next rank. but if the instructor dosnt want to answer his wishes should be respected too.
> 
> this is me to bigtime... i ask my instructor multiple questions every class (i make sure to do it at apropriate times afcoarse)



I agree, a student shouldn't argue. But just because a student asks questions doesn't mean they're arguing.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 20, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I agree, a student shouldn't argue. But just because a student asks questions doesn't mean they're arguing.


Did you ask your teacher yet?


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## Transk53 (Dec 20, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> What are you confused about?



At a guess, you are hungry for a Black belt, but not quite there. Then again, I feel you are just being disingenuous.


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2014)




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## PhotonGuy (Dec 20, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Did you ask your teacher yet?


I did that a long time ago. Actually it was another student who did.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 21, 2014)

how many students tell their instructor they are not ready for the test or tell him they do not deserve the rank ? 
I know I never felt I was ready to get more rank maybe because it meant more responsibility or I was comparing myself to those who already had that rank.


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## Tez3 (Dec 21, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> how many students tell their instructor they are not ready for the test or tell him they do not deserve the rank ?
> I know I never felt I was ready to get more rank maybe because it meant more responsibility or I was comparing myself to those who already had that rank.




I have for sure, I had to be persuaded to test for 1st Dan. I've known others too who has said they weren't ready. Often I think we can put ourselves down and think we can't do it whereas the instructor, because they have more experience, can say yes we are ready to grade. I think it's hard as well to see improvements you've made or that you have gained knowledge but you can see it in others so you think you aren't ready for grading.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 21, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> I have for sure, I had to be persuaded to test for 1st Dan. I've known others too who has said they weren't ready. Often I think we can put ourselves down and think we can't do it whereas the instructor, because they have more experience, can say yes we are ready to grade. I think it's hard as well to see improvements you've made or that you have gained knowledge but you can see it in others so you think you aren't ready for grading.



One of the biggest determining factors in regards to whether or not you will pass a test for a rank is self confidence. There's been students who've given up in the middle of the test because they just didn't think they could do it. When you test, or even when you just train, you've got to go in with the attitude that you will do your best and that way, whether you pass or fail you know you've given it your all. And if you do fail you should learn from that, you should know why you failed and so you will need to know what you have to work on.


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## Cirdan (Dec 22, 2014)

Tez3 said:


>



My first white belt is definatly my favorite belt. I still keep it in my bag at all times in case I take a class in an art I am not graded (BJJ now and then) or I or a friend forget their belt at home. Have used it in many arts and at times friends or family have borrowed it for extended periods of time. It is like an old friend who has been there for the whole journey.

And let us not forget, the black belt turns white over time.


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## Transk53 (Dec 22, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> One of the biggest determining factors in regards to whether or not you will pass a test for a rank is self confidence. There's been students who've given up in the middle of the test because they just didn't think they could do it. When you test, or even when you just train, you've got to go in with the attitude that you will do your best and that way, whether you pass or fail you know you've given it your all. And if you do fail you should learn from that, you should know why you failed and so you will need to know what you have to work on.



Yeah. It is better to have tried and failed, and not try at all. I know one thing for sure, I do not tests very well at all irrespective of the subject matter. Scary things are those tests.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 22, 2014)

Cirdan said:


> My first white belt is definatly my favorite belt. I still keep it in my bag at all times in case I take a class in an art I am not graded (BJJ now and then) or I or a friend forget their belt at home. Have used it in many arts and at times friends or family have borrowed it for extended periods of time. It is like an old friend who has been there for the whole journey.
> 
> And let us not forget, the black belt turns white over time.



Your white belt must be getting dirty since you've had it for so long and used it so much, it might even be turning black.

And yes the black belt does turn white over time, and that's a sign of true experience, a black belt with the color coming off with use that is going to white.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 22, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> And yes the black belt does turn white over time, and that's a sign of true experience, a black belt with the color coming off with use that is going to white.


Or that you wash it alot.  Or you purposely destressed it to look old.  Or its just a cheap belt


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## Transk53 (Dec 22, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Your white belt must be getting dirty since you've had it for so long and used it so much, it might even be turning black.
> 
> And yes the black belt does turn white over time, and that's a sign of true experience, a black belt with the color coming off with use that is going to white.



Yeah, but it will look worn though. Real signs of age. The washing to remove colour, would not show such age. So yeah, you are right. However, that does not mean the wearer has.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 22, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah, but it will look worn though. Real signs of age. The washing to remove colour, would not show such age. So yeah, you are right. However, that does not mean the wearer has.



A belt gets worn with use rather than age. You can get a belt and hang it up on your wall and never wear it or train with it and it will not get worn. On the other hand if you train with it constantly it will get worn and faded much faster.


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## Transk53 (Dec 22, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> A belt gets worn with use rather than age. You can get a belt and hang it up on your wall and never wear it or train with it and it will not get worn. On the other hand if you train with it constantly it will get worn and faded much faster.



Yeah, but in a natural state.


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## Blindside (Dec 22, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Your white belt must be getting dirty since you've had it for so long and used it so much, it might even be turning black.
> 
> And yes the black belt does turn white over time, and that's a sign of true experience, a black belt with the color coming off with use that is going to white.


 
You do know that this is a parable?


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 23, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> At a guess, you are hungry for a Black belt, but not quite there. Then again, I feel you are just being disingenuous.


More along the lines that I didn't get a black belt when I had hoped to.


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## Transk53 (Dec 23, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> More along the lines that I didn't get a black belt when I had hoped to.



You got one now though?


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## Cirdan (Dec 23, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Your white belt must be getting dirty since you've had it for so long and used it so much, it might even be turning black.



It is just a light brown or grey in places. Would post a picture but seem to have a problem with adding to my galleries right now...


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 23, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> More along the lines that I didn't get a black belt when I had hoped to.



And you've been whining about it ever since... Let it go.



PhotonGuy said:


> Your white belt must be getting dirty since you've had it for so long and used it so much, it might even be turning black.




You may have noticed at some time in your life that dirt isn't black...
If you don't wash your belt, it'll turn a sort of dirty gray/brown with maybe some green mold and fungi if you sweat a lot or live in a particularly humid locale.



PhotonGuy said:


> And yes the black belt does turn white over time, and that's a sign of true experience, a black belt with the color coming off with use that is going to white.



I guess I don't have any "true experience" then, since I wouldn't wear a ratty belt any more than I'd wear a ratty dobak.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 13, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> You got one now though?



Lets just say I was very very late.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 13, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> And you've been whining about it ever since... Let it go.



TRANSK53 was asking a question, I was answering him.



Dirty Dog said:


> You may have noticed at some time in your life that dirt isn't black...
> If you don't wash your belt, it'll turn a sort of dirty gray/brown with maybe some green mold and fungi if you sweat a lot or live in a particularly humid locale.



I've never had a white belt that I've worn for a long time without washing.



Dirty Dog said:


> I guess I don't have any "true experience" then, since I wouldn't wear a ratty belt any more than I'd wear a ratty dobak.


No, this should be obvious but a particular belt, or the absence of it does not give or take away from a person's experience, it simply symbolizes it.


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> No, this should be obvious but a particular belt, or the absence of it does not give or take away from a person's experience, it simply symbolizes it.


Great point.


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## Zero (Jan 14, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> TRANSK53 was asking a question, I was answering him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, although Steve seems to agree, I am not sure I totally do on that, at least to the reference of what the belt symbolises.
You seem the be stating that if a particular person had:
(i) cross trained over many years, perhaps to relatively high levels in each style; or
(ii) had remained with a certain art and trained diligently and actually become a very adept fighter but for whatever reason, such as business or travel, had not been able to grade that often,

and due to the above had not obtained a black belt (or any belt), then the lack of such belt symbolises...what?  It symbolises he has no experience?  The lack of the belt symbolises (ie it portrays the image to others) that this guy is not experienced or a good fighter?

But surely this runs counter to not assuming the ability of another simply based on the belt colour they wear - and I thought you agreed with that?

I agree with you in that the absence of a belt does not take away from a person's actual experience or ability.  But I am struggling to understand what you mean in the second part of your sentence as to what the lack of the belt actually symbolises?

Can you please explain further?


I am sure that this is a great point but I am slower on the uptake than Steve (Steve does bjj so he will be quicker at this kind of thing than a fighter of any other style (except perhaps Systema), and there's YouTube footage to support that!)


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 14, 2015)

Zero said:


> Actually, although Steve seems to agree, I am not sure I totally do on that, at least to the reference of what the belt symbolises.
> You seem the be stating that if a particular person had:
> (i) cross trained over many years, perhaps to relatively high levels in each style; or
> (ii) had remained with a certain art and trained diligently and actually become a very adept fighter but for whatever reason, such as business or travel, had not been able to grade that often,
> ...



If a person happens to get a certain belt in a certain system it symbolizes that they've completed the challenge of getting that belt. A person doesn't have to get a certain belt to be experienced but some people want to take on the challenge of getting to a high belt. There are some people that will stop pursuing belts after awhile, I've known people who've stopped after getting a brown belt, ect. they still train and they still want to get better but they don't care for belts anymore. They might be just as good as people who've got higher belts but they just don't care to get any more belts. But, like I said, there are some people who want to take on the challenge of getting higher belts, by getting higher belts that symbolizes that they've completed that challenge. Exactly what that means would depend on where they train and the standards set by the place where they train at. Different dojos have different standards and different levels of difficulty. Belts are certainly not fool proof in showing just how experienced a person is, like all systems created by man its subject to error. In the same way that letter grades in school (A,B,C,D,F) show generally how well a student has learned the material but they aren't foolproof. A student might get an A in a class but that doesn't always mean they know more about the subject than a student who got a lower grade. Maybe the student who got the A happened to know more of the answers that were on the tests but might not have as much overall knowledge on the subject as the student who got a lower grade.

So if a student doesn't have a high belt it doesn't necessarily symbolize that the student is inexperienced, in some cases it does such as if the student is a beginner but it could also mean that the student hasn't tested for whatever reason. Maybe they've chosen not to test or maybe they've not been able to test due to other reasons as stated or maybe they train in a system that doesn't use rank.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 14, 2015)

There is no challenge to getting a belt. There is a challenge to gaining the _*skills*_.

The difference between these two statements has consistently eluded you. This may very well have some connection to the reasons it took you so long to be promoted. I know I am (as are others) reluctant to promote someone who doesn't grasp concepts like this.


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## Transk53 (Jan 14, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> TRANSK53 was asking a question, I was answering him.



Yeah cool. This is the thing with belts


PhotonGuy said:


> If a person happens to get a certain belt in a certain system it symbolizes that they've completed the challenge of getting that belt. A person doesn't have to get a certain belt to be experienced but some people want to take on the challenge of getting to a high belt. There are some people that will stop pursuing belts after awhile, I've known people who've stopped after getting a brown belt, ect. they still train and they still want to get better but they don't care for belts anymore. They might be just as good as people who've got higher belts but they just don't care to get any more belts. But, like I said, there are some people who want to take on the challenge of getting higher belts, by getting higher belts that symbolizes that they've completed that challenge. Exactly what that means would depend on where they train and the standards set by the place where they train at. Different dojos have different standards and different levels of difficulty. Belts are certainly not fool proof in showing just how experienced a person is, like all systems created by man its subject to error. In the same way that letter grades in school (A,B,C,D,F) show generally how well a student has learned the material but they aren't foolproof. A student might get an A in a class but that doesn't always mean they know more about the subject than a student who got a lower grade. Maybe the student who got the A happened to know more of the answers that were on the tests but might not have as much overall knowledge on the subject as the student who got a lower grade.
> 
> So if a student doesn't have a high belt it doesn't necessarily symbolize that the student is inexperienced, in some cases it does such as if the student is a beginner but it could also mean that the student hasn't tested for whatever reason. Maybe they've chosen not to test or maybe they've not been able to test due to other reasons as stated or maybe they train in a system that doesn't use rank.




Nice reply. The challenge to gaining a belt comes with the grading. Does not matter if the student is more than capable of gaining it, all the other life factors come into play. Thanks for posting


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 14, 2015)

going to take this off the serious side for a moment.
on getting a belt:
I went to an event the other weekend and because my waist has expanded with age ( not got fat) I needed a new belt that would fit when I got there. The facility I went to is not only a school/training place but is listed as a supply store. I went in introduced myself and the asked if anyone was behind the counter that could sell me a belt. They questioned why I was there asked if I was a member of their style and then told me I had to wait till my host(the person that invited me to the event) arrived to see what he wanted to do with me.
I'm sorry your listed as a supply store sell me the damn belt.
I did get the belt when my host arrived he went to the counter and asked for one and they sold to him (I paid) on the spot. It coat me 3 times what I could buy one online for but that is the business side of running a school and for a different thread.
So in conclusion getting a belt is not always easy
ok now back to the serious stuff

edit:  BTW I hate a great time at the event once my host got there and I met some nice people


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 14, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is no challenge to getting a belt. There is a challenge to gaining the _*skills*_..



Once you get the skills you then have to apply them when you test, and that involves being able to perform them well enough to pass. So to pass the test you have to perform under pressure. When somebody is under pressure their skills can diminish, part of the test is being able to perform well enough under such pressure. So, to get a belt, or to pass the test to get the belt is a challenge, at least at my place it is.



Dirty Dog said:


> The difference between these two statements has consistently eluded you. This may very well have some connection to the reasons it took you so long to be promoted. I know I am (as are others) reluctant to promote someone who doesn't grasp concepts like this.



I've explained why it took me so long to be promoted and I don't think most people would want me to explain it again.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 14, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> going to take this off the serious side for a moment.
> on getting a belt:
> I went to an event the other weekend and because my waist has expanded with age ( not got fat) I needed a new belt that would fit when I got there. The facility I went to is not only a school/training place but is listed as a supply store. I went in introduced myself and the asked if anyone was behind the counter that could sell me a belt. They questioned why I was there asked if I was a member of their style and then told me I had to wait till my host(the person that invited me to the event) arrived to see what he wanted to do with me.
> I'm sorry your listed as a supply store sell me the damn belt.
> ...



Some schools are like that, they will only sell you a belt if they know you've earned it or of you can show them certification saying what your rank is or, in your case, if you have the proper connections. That's how it is at my school, after you pass a belt test you can then buy your next belt for about $5.00 except for the black belt which they just give to you once you pass the test without you paying anything for it. Technically you could say its a supply store since they will sell other martial arts paraphernalia such as uniforms to just anybody. But, there are supply stores that will sell anything, including any colored belt, to anybody although those places are usually just supply stores not a school that doubles as a supply store. And of course there's the internet.


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## Steve (Jan 14, 2015)

Zero said:


> Actually, although Steve seems to agree, I am not sure I totally do on that, at least to the reference of what the belt symbolises.
> You seem the be stating that if a particular person had:
> (i) cross trained over many years, perhaps to relatively high levels in each style; or
> (ii) had remained with a certain art and trained diligently and actually become a very adept fighter but for whatever reason, such as business or travel, had not been able to grade that often,
> ...


Hey, well, since my name was mentioned more than once, I feel like I need to elaborate a little.  I think of the belt as a symbol of the progress.  There's a term I picked up somewhere (lost in the deep recesses of my mind now, I'm sure):  "ceremonial adequacy."  In its simplest terms, the idea is that a person can go to the university for, say, six years.  He may have 150% of the number of credits required to earn a degree, but hasn't taken one required course.  You could argue that he is really BETTER educated than some of the people who have earned a degree.  He has certainly taken and passed more classes.  But without the diploma, he doesn't have the symbol that represents a body of instruction.  There is no place on a resume for an almost degree in business. You either have a degree or you do not.

Same goes for many other things.  Sure, the stakes are pretty low in martial arts, but in the very same way, the belts represent a body of work.  It's a shorthand for, "I have accomplished these things over approximately this period of time."  While the belts mean different things in diffrent systems, to anyone within the system, they mean something kind of specific. 

Regarding presumptions about other peoples' skill levels, it's just the way it goes.  There's always a pecking order, and i would argue that there should be.  It helps cut to the chase.  Whether it's overt in the form of a belt or external symbol of rank, or not, every school has a system of some kind.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 14, 2015)

Steve said:


> Hey, well, since my name was mentioned more than once, I feel like I need to elaborate a little.  I think of the belt as a symbol of the progress.  There's a term I picked up somewhere (lost in the deep recesses of my mind now, I'm sure):  "ceremonial adequacy."  In its simplest terms, the idea is that a person can go to the university for, say, six years.  He may have 150% of the number of credits required to earn a degree, but hasn't taken one required course.  You could argue that he is really BETTER educated than some of the people who have earned a degree.  He has certainly taken and passed more classes.  But without the diploma, he doesn't have the symbol that represents a body of instruction.  There is no place on a resume for an almost degree in business. You either have a degree or you do not.


Well, the person who has gone to the university for 6 years and has all those credits but hasn't taken the required courses for a degree and thus doesn't have a degree, if its a degree they want than they haven't been that smart on how they studied and the courses they've taken. To reach a goal, whether it be a college degree or whatever requires hard work but it also requires good planning and smarts, and while a college degree would certainly require academic smarts as with other goals it also requires life smarts or "horse sense." You have to know what classes you need to take for your degree and you need to know what you need to do to take those classes. That's why colleges have advisors. When you go to college you meet with an advisor and you discuss what kind of degree you want and what you need to do to get it. The same thing with wanting to get a belt in the martial arts, it requires hard work but also planning and that's why it shouldn't be wrong for a student to talk to their sensei if they're unclear about something. Some people have said that asking if they can test is seen as disrespectful but as somebody on another board pointed out, instead of asking, "can I test," asking, "am I ready to test," is more respectful. And if a student isn't ready there is no reason why the student shouldn't ask their sensei what they need to do, what they need to work on so that they will be ready. That way the student can hopefully test and pass the next time around, if the student wants a certain belt.



Steve said:


> Same goes for many other things.  Sure, the stakes are pretty low in martial arts, but in the very same way, the belts represent a body of work.  It's a shorthand for, "I have accomplished these things over approximately this period of time."  While the belts mean different things in diffrent systems, to anyone within the system, they mean something kind of specific.
> 
> Regarding presumptions about other peoples' skill levels, it's just the way it goes.  There's always a pecking order, and i would argue that there should be.  It helps cut to the chase.  Whether it's overt in the form of a belt or external symbol of rank, or not, every school has a system of some kind.



Yes you're right. And it does depend on where you get the belt. As you said every school has a system of some kind. So, depending on where you get it, there often is a challenge to getting a belt. Its been said here that the challenge is in getting the skills, well getting a belt at a place where you have to get the skills first, if getting the skills is a challenge then getting the belt, at least there, is a challenge because they won't give you the belt without the skills.


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## Zero (Jan 15, 2015)

Steve said:


> Hey, well, since my name was mentioned more than once, I feel like I need to elaborate a little.  I think of the belt as a symbol of the progress.  There's a term I picked up somewhere (lost in the deep recesses of my mind now, I'm sure):  "ceremonial adequacy."  In its simplest terms, the idea is that a person can go to the university for, say, six years.  He may have 150% of the number of credits required to earn a degree, but hasn't taken one required course.  You could argue that he is really BETTER educated than some of the people who have earned a degree.  He has certainly taken and passed more classes.  But without the diploma, he doesn't have the symbol that represents a body of instruction.  There is no place on a resume for an almost degree in business. You either have a degree or you do not.
> 
> Same goes for many other things.  Sure, the stakes are pretty low in martial arts, but in the very same way, the belts represent a body of work.  It's a shorthand for, "I have accomplished these things over approximately this period of time."  While the belts mean different things in diffrent systems, to anyone within the system, they mean something kind of specific.
> 
> Regarding presumptions about other peoples' skill levels, it's just the way it goes.  There's always a pecking order, and i would argue that there should be.  It helps cut to the chase.  Whether it's overt in the form of a belt or external symbol of rank, or not, every school has a system of some kind.


Thanks, that is helpful, I see where you, and perhaps Photon Guy, are coming from.


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## Zero (Jan 15, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> But, like I said, there are some people who want to take on the challenge of getting higher belts, by getting higher belts that symbolizes that they've completed that challenge.



Yes, interestingly, some people focus more on the "challenge" of acquiring said belts rather than infusing themselves with the knowledge one would hope is acquired going through the process of learning and that getting the belt is only a by-product of.

I agree what Dirty Dog says regarding there should be no challenge to "getting the belt" in itself, it is about getting the skills.  But some people really will do the bare minimum to get graded up and grab that belt, their focus is only on the belts and being able to say, "hey, I'm a ...-belt, aren't I just the greatest".

I have seen at least one second-dan at my old club that could perform kata beautifully, but his technical fighting skills are poor and his actual understanding of the application of the kata techniques I think is sub-par (he joined our club from an associate's club and he did not grade to that level at our club, I say that not so much (maybe a little) in defence of my own club but as to I am not sure I understand how he got to that grade). I don't think this guy was actually focused on the belts, he was a swell guy and he really did seem to enjoy himself and devoted a lot of his time to kata, the performance of kata that is, but at his level it is shock that he didn't have the first clue as to how to go about an actual fight.

To be harsh, from my point of view he and his like are "paper" martial artists. There is a risk at certain karate clubs that the focus is placed too much on the kata and demonstration side and if externally if it looks good it is credited.  You can be an excellent mimic but if you do not understand the in-depth reasoning of what you are mimicking then that really does not count for much.  Look, I take nothing away from his performance ability but the guy could hardly fight and his execution was poor.


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## Transk53 (Jan 15, 2015)

Zero said:


> Look, I take nothing away from his performance ability but the guy could hardly *fight *and his execution was poor.



It is a skill much overlooked and assumed.


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## Zero (Jan 15, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> It is a skill much overlooked and assumed.


Funny that isn't it?  And in martial arts of all places!


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## Transk53 (Jan 15, 2015)

Zero said:


> Funny that isn't it?  And in martial arts of all places!



Indeed.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 15, 2015)

Zero said:


> Yes, interestingly, some people focus more on the "challenge" of acquiring said belts rather than infusing themselves with the knowledge one would hope is acquired going through the process of learning and that getting the belt is only a by-product of.
> 
> I agree what Dirty Dog says regarding there should be no challenge to "getting the belt" in itself, it is about getting the skills.



You're not going to get the belt without getting the skill so there would have to be a challenge to getting the belt since its a challenge to get the skills. Although I agree that you should focus on the skills and the knowledge, but you might still want the desired by-product of a belt. In the same way that in school a student might want an A in a class, their primary focus shouldn't be on the grade but rather on learning the material and gaining the knowledge thats necessary to get the A but they will still want the A.



Zero said:


> But some people really will do the bare minimum to get graded up and grab that belt, their focus is only on the belts and being able to say, "hey, I'm a ...-belt, aren't I just the greatest".



I don't agree with that, I would rather pass in flying colors than to just pass borderline. I would rather get an 100 on a test than a 90 which is still an A but just a borderline A as opposed to an 100 which is an A+



Zero said:


> I have seen at least one second-dan at my old club that could perform kata beautifully, but his technical fighting skills are poor and his actual understanding of the application of the kata techniques I think is sub-par (he joined our club from an associate's club and he did not grade to that level at our club, I say that not so much (maybe a little) in defence of my own club but as to I am not sure I understand how he got to that grade). I don't think this guy was actually focused on the belts, he was a swell guy and he really did seem to enjoy himself and devoted a lot of his time to kata, the performance of kata that is, but at his level it is shock that he didn't have the first clue as to how to go about an actual fight.



Different places have different standards. There are some dojos that focus on kata and promotion is based almost entirely on how well you do katas. While I do believe there can sometimes be too much emphasis on kata I do believe they are important and do have their place. Part of being good with kata is to be able to understand the application of the techniques. There's also the mental aspect, you're supposed to imagine you're fighting real opponents so that's where the mental part comes in.



Zero said:


> To be harsh, from my point of view he and his like are "paper" martial artists. There is a risk at certain karate clubs that the focus is placed too much on the kata and demonstration side and if externally if it looks good it is credited.  You can be an excellent mimic but if you do not understand the in-depth reasoning of what you are mimicking then that really does not count for much.  Look, I take nothing away from his performance ability but the guy could hardly fight and his execution was poor.


There are dojos that produce paper martial artists or as I like to put it, straw tigers, but every place has its own standards and its own methods of grading students.

I would also like to point out when it comes to belts how some people say its more about the journey than the destination. I would agree that the focus should be more on the journey but you also need to realize that just because you reach a certain belt doesn't mean the journey ends. The journey keeps going and going as long as you train in the martial arts. Its open ended and ongoing.


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## Instructor (Jan 15, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is no challenge to getting a belt. There is a challenge to gaining the _*skills*_.
> 
> The difference between these two statements has consistently eluded you. This may very well have some connection to the reasons it took you so long to be promoted. I know I am (as are others) reluctant to promote someone who doesn't grasp concepts like this.



Every time I go to say something Dirty Dog has said it first and better than I could have...


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2015)

Instructor said:


> Every time I go to say something Dirty Dog has said it first and better than I could have...



Great Minds think alike.
So do warped ones.
Deciding which truism applies is left as an exercise for the reader...


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## Zero (Jan 16, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> You're not going to get the belt without getting the skill so there would have to be a challenge to getting the belt since its a challenge to get the skills. Although I agree that you should focus on the skills and the knowledge, but you might still want the desired by-product of a belt. In the same way that in school a student might want an A in a class, their primary focus shouldn't be on the grade but rather on learning the material and gaining the knowledge thats necessary to get the A but they will still want the A.



Nothing at all wrong with also wanting the by-product of the belt at all, agreed.

The school analogy unfortunately in the real world does not stack up so well.  It is a perverted thing that, while getting the knowledge from the curriculum is important, it is absolutely crucial kids pick up those top marks depending on where they and their parents want them to go in life and that starts at primary school for getting into decent high school or getting a scholarship and then from high school to get into the appropriate university and then from uni into almost any job now.  The marks are used all the way through as a screen and then those who get the interview get to show their real human self.  Until recently I would say that only applied to professional jobs but marks are becoming more of a requirement even in trades apprenticeships now.

Without the right grades the very gates to you being able to continue your learning and participate at all may well be shut to you.

However, that is not necessarily the case with the martial arts, unless you are in a style that requires certain rank before you can compete at local, national, international level, and you are focused on competition to the highest levels within that style.  You can continue to stay in your karate club and to pick up knowledge for ever even if you do not grade.  It is even possible at some clubs, if you are good but for whatever reason have not been able to make the grading to continue to study the art to high dan levels and to take part in that training.

I'm not saying it's a great thing but in most Western and Eastern societies I have been in the school grades themselves really are of key importance.





PhotonGuy said:


> I don't agree with that, I would rather pass in flying colors than to just pass borderline. I would rather get an 100 on a test than a 90 which is still an A but just a borderline A as opposed to an 100 which is an A+


 So you're not saying you don't agree with my statement but rather that personally your approach is not that as which I set out. Seems like we agree on that then, great!  : )


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 16, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Great Minds think alike.
> So do warped ones.
> Deciding which truism applies is left as an exercise for the reader...



"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matthew 15:14


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 16, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matthew 15:14



Well, I'll grant that you do seem to be an expert at blindness, in the metaphorical sense...


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 16, 2015)

Zero said:


> Nothing at all wrong with also wanting the by-product of the belt at all, agreed.
> 
> The school analogy unfortunately in the real world does not stack up so well.  It is a perverted thing that, while getting the knowledge from the curriculum is important, it is absolutely crucial kids pick up those top marks depending on where they and their parents want them to go in life and that starts at primary school for getting into decent high school or getting a scholarship and then from high school to get into the appropriate university and then from uni into almost any job now.  The marks are used all the way through as a screen and then those who get the interview get to show their real human self.  Until recently I would say that only applied to professional jobs but marks are becoming more of a requirement even in trades apprenticeships now.
> 
> ...



So you're saying that grades often are crucial for a career and that belts aren't. Generally yes but that can depend. Somebody might want to go into a career in the martial arts. They might want to set up their own place and although, just like grades belts aren't a foolproof system in determining a person's knowledge and skill, I would want to at least make 1st dan before trying to teach and even at 1st dan I wouldn't consider myself ready to teach, I would still want to gain much more knowledge and experience before teaching but 1st dan would be a step towards that career. 

Grades are what they look at in schools, colleges, and careers but I do think they sometimes rush it too much. Also, its possible to go into a good career without getting top grades. I've got a friend who never finished high school and now he's running a successful business in landscaping and remodeling. So depending on your career of choice grades aren't always necessary but they are necessary for a lot of good jobs but so are belts if you want to go into a career in the martial arts as I posted above. Even for other careers maybe somebody wants to get a certain belt even if it's not required for the career. I could give examples.

As its been said here, martial arts can't be rushed. I would say its the same thing with most stuff in this world. School shouldn't be rushed but unfortunately sometimes it is. And while you usually can't rush stuff without ruining it, I would still want to get stuff done in a timely manner. If I was baking a cake which took 2 hours, turning up the heat to get it done sooner would only burn the cake and so it wouldn't be a good idea but if it takes 2 hours I would want it to take 2 hours not 3. I want to get stuff done in a timely manner, whether it be cakes, belts, or most anything else.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 16, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, I'll grant that you do seem to be an expert at blindness, in the metaphorical sense...
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.



I was referring to you and Instructor.


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## Zero (Jan 19, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So you're saying that grades often are crucial for a career and that belts aren't. Generally yes but that can depend. Somebody might want to go into a career in the martial arts. They might want to set up their own place and although, just like grades belts aren't a foolproof system in determining a person's knowledge and skill, I would want to at least make 1st dan before trying to teach and even at 1st dan I wouldn't consider myself ready to teach, I would still want to gain much more knowledge and experience before teaching but 1st dan would be a step towards that career. .



If one was going to have a career in the martial arts, ie in being an instructor and/or running their own school, then I really hope they would do this from the basis of a solid core knowledge of the arts they train in.  This is not always reality or the case.  You can get teachers of questionable rank with less than the greatest understanding of the style they teach.  This is often propped up by "such and such a belt in this style and such and such a grade in that one..."



PhotonGuy said:


> Grades are what they look at in schools, colleges, and careers but I do think they sometimes rush it too much. Also, its possible to go into a good career without getting top grades. I've got a friend who never finished high school and now he's running a successful business in landscaping and remodeling. So depending on your career of choice grades aren't always necessary but they are necessary for a lot of good jobs but so are belts if you want to go into a career in the martial arts as I posted above. Even for other careers maybe somebody wants to get a certain belt even if it's not required for the career. I could give examples..



You're talking about running your own business.  Many of which do require certain grades or recognition from a body, such as most trades like electricians or businesses involved in the financial services. Sure, if you're talking about actual entrepreneurs, then that's another kettle of fish and that's where the real money lies (and real risk) if money is your thing.  My un-qualified friends who flunked out of high school and went on to be web entrepreneurs or took over the reins of dad's business are lighting cigars with 100 dollar bills and washing their Ferrari's in champagne while I'll be lucky to retire before 70.  Personally I would say the uni or tertiary route is often way over-sold!!  Kids should try to get out there and grab a fortune and if fail then hit the books say mid- twenties or later or some such.



PhotonGuy said:


> As its been said here, martial arts can't be rushed. I would say its the same thing with most stuff in this world. School shouldn't be rushed but unfortunately sometimes it is. And while you usually can't rush stuff without ruining it, I would still want to get stuff done in a timely manner. If I was baking a cake which took 2 hours, turning up the heat to get it done sooner would only burn the cake and so it wouldn't be a good idea but if it takes 2 hours I would want it to take 2 hours not 3. I want to get stuff done in a timely manner, whether it be cakes, belts, or most anything else.



Still with the cakes??

Personally, I would say rush through the schooling to the max to and at whatever level and get out and live and make some $$$  : )


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 19, 2015)

Zero said:


> Still with the cakes??


Why not? Its a good example.


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## Zero (Jan 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Why not? Its a good example.


Nah, was just joking, I should have added a smiley, as you always bring up the cakes and seem to have an affinity with baking analogies. Cakes are all good!


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## Transk53 (Jan 20, 2015)

Zero said:


> Cakes are all good!



Especially when they are white chocolate chip muffins or eccles cakes.


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## Cirdan (Jan 20, 2015)

`cause martial arts are like having your cake and eating it too


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 20, 2015)

Zero said:


> Nah, was just joking, I should have added a smiley, as you always bring up the cakes and seem to have an affinity with baking analogies. Cakes are all good!



Actually it was somebody else who came up with the cake analogy and I thought it was good. 

Anyway, you said you know people who didn't finish high school and who are living the American dream while you would be glad to retire to 70. As for me, I wouldn't want to retire at 70 or ever. I want a job that I enjoy doing and that I do because I enjoy doing it and if I can make good money thats another good thing about it but not the main reason for doing it. And if its a job I really enjoy I want it to be lifelong.


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## Zero (Jan 21, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Actually it was somebody else who came up with the cake analogy and I thought it was good.
> 
> Anyway, you said you know people who didn't finish high school and who are living the American dream while you would be *glad *to retire to 70. As for me, I wouldn't want to retire at 70 or ever. I want a job that I enjoy doing and that I do because I enjoy doing it and if I can make good money thats another good thing about it but not the main reason for doing it. And if its a job I really enjoy I want it to be lifelong.


No, no my friend, I said "I would by lucky" to retire before 70 (not "glad" to retire at 70).  This means I'm probably going to have to keep working at the coal face until that age.  It is also standard to read into such a comment that I would prefer such age to be much earlier.  I like my job and luckily find it fascinating and challenging but why work and play if you can play 100% of the time?  That's my view on life.  Again, most of the time I really enjoy my work but if I had a trust fund I would chuck it in and be in the dojo and out sailing and spending  all of the time.

That said, my old man is 70 now and still doing a full week's work and doesn't need to but only does so because he enjoys it (and possibly to avoid being home 24/7 with the old lady!).  He said this is the first year that he has started feeling tired by mid/end of the week and is now thinking of winding back or chucking it in.  He's lucky to have a job that keeps him engaged with his noggin and his hands.  Wouldn't it be great to enjoy your job so you can keep at it?  So you are right that it would be special to be in that situation.


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## Zero (Jan 21, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Actually it was somebody else who came up with the cake analogy and I thought it was good.
> 
> Anyway, you said you know people who didn't finish high school and who are living the American dream .


  They're not in America so it's a different dream, possibly even a better one?!


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 21, 2015)

Zero said:


> No, no my friend, I said "I would by lucky" to retire before 70 (not "glad" to retire at 70).  This means I'm probably going to have to keep working at the coal face until that age.  It is also standard to read into such a comment that I would prefer such age to be much earlier.  I like my job and luckily find it fascinating and challenging but why work and play if you can play 100% of the time?  That's my view on life.  Again, most of the time I really enjoy my work but if I had a trust fund I would chuck it in and be in the dojo and out sailing and spending  all of the time.
> 
> That said, my old man is 70 now and still doing a full week's work and doesn't need to but only does so because he enjoys it (and possibly to avoid being home 24/7 with the old lady!).  He said this is the first year that he has started feeling tired by mid/end of the week and is now thinking of winding back or chucking it in.  He's lucky to have a job that keeps him engaged with his noggin and his hands.  Wouldn't it be great to enjoy your job so you can keep at it?  So you are right that it would be special to be in that situation.



Why work and play if you can play 100% at the time? Why not this, why not do something that's both 100% of the time? Another words, get paid for playing. I know people who've done that, they really love their job and that's the main reason they do it although the money is good too. So I think its best to find a job you can get paid doing that you really enjoy, or better yet, take something you really enjoy and find a way to get paid for it. I knew this guy who really enjoyed fishing and he somehow made a career out of it. Speaking of which, fishing often involves sailing so if you're into fishing and sailing you can combine the two. 

So anyway, congrats to your dad for being 70 and still doing a job he really enjoys. A friend of mine from high school owns a huge landscaping business and has over 100 cars, trucks, and tractors. He could if he wanted to, be sailing and spending all the time but he's not, he doesn't even work at a desk most of the time rather he's out in the field most of the time doing the landscaping work along with all his workers and hiring out the desk work, why? Because he really enjoys it.

Anyway, I get what you're saying, sometimes you have to do what you can to make ends meet and it might not be your number one choice of work but nonetheless its necessary for the income you need. That's just life, in the perfect world we would all be doing work we enjoy, not because we need to pay the bills.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 21, 2015)

Zero said:


> They're not in America so it's a different dream, possibly even a better one?!



So where are they?


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## Zero (Jan 22, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So where are they?


Oh, off the top of the head, one is in England (web/IT), two are in the Philippines (pharmaceuticals) and one is in New Zealand (logistics).  But now this thread really is literally and geographically going all over the show.


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## Instructor (Jan 22, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> I was referring to you and Instructor.



In jest?


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## Steve (Jan 22, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Why work and play if you can play 100% at the time? Why not this, why not do something that's both 100% of the time? Another words, get paid for playing. I know people who've done that, they really love their job and that's the main reason they do it although the money is good too. So I think its best to find a job you can get paid doing that you really enjoy, or better yet, take something you really enjoy and find a way to get paid for it. I knew this guy who really enjoyed fishing and he somehow made a career out of it. Speaking of which, fishing often involves sailing so if you're into fishing and sailing you can combine the two.


Taking a passion and monetizing works really well for some people.  But not everyone.  When you monetize something, it becomes an obligation (ie, a job).  Personally, the point where a hobby becomes a job is about the time it ceases to be fun. 

don't get me wrong.  I love my job.  But it's a profession about which I'm passionate, not the other way around.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 22, 2015)

Steve said:


> Taking a passion and monetizing works really well for some people.  But not everyone.  When you monetize something, it becomes an obligation (ie, a job).  Personally, the point where a hobby becomes a job is about the time it ceases to be fun.
> 
> don't get me wrong.  I love my job.  But it's a profession about which I'm passionate, not the other way around.



I agree with you. I enjoy my work too, but it's my job, and I have to do it even when it's not fun.

One of the reasons I enjoy teaching at our dojang is because it is _*not*_ commercial.
Similarly, I have no desire to teach SCUBA. I dive because I like to see what I can see. An instructors dive is spent helping students work on skills and making sure they don't do something that will get them killed.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 22, 2015)

Well anyway, as it is people have pointed out that there is nothing wrong with a student asking a sensei about how the dojo is run


Steve said:


> Taking a passion and monetizing works really well for some people.  But not everyone.  When you monetize something, it becomes an obligation (ie, a job).  Personally, the point where a hobby becomes a job is about the time it ceases to be fun.


Not necessarily. There are some people that for them, their jobs are tons of fun. People have literally told me that they get paid for playing.


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## Zero (Jan 23, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well anyway, as it is people have pointed out that there is nothing wrong with a student asking a sensei about how the dojo is run
> 
> Not necessarily. There are some people that for them, their jobs are tons of fun. People have literally told me that they get paid for playing.


Yes, that's understood.  But kind of line with what Steve and DD were saying, it can be nice to have a delineation between "work" and "play".  If your work is "playing" you are still essentially doing that for others' gain or benefit, either your employer or you clients/customers. An old mate of mine loved sailing and he sails for Oracle but that is hard work and that is his job and he is doing this, while for himself, also primarily for Oracle.  It is they he is ultimately performing for.

Even guys who "play" solely for themselves so they are the only ones that benefit from their performance, such as professional gamblers or competitive fishermen or professional "gamers", ultimately their pay cheque is riding on how they perform.  And when you get to that level you probably (hopefully!) have sponsors and endorsements and so you find you are actually performing for others which have a vested (or entirely money-focused) interested never-the-less.

It can be nice to be doing something solely for oneself and not to have a pay cheque riding on it and to have the money component completely removed, martial arts being just such an example. You can go off on tangents and back-waters of interest you may not have the time or be allowed to if that is your "job". I love the martial arts and it is possible I could have continued down the business route in the MA by running my own classes (and probably failed miserably) but I have loved doing MA for myself and it is my time and I never wanted to be doing it for someone else, I enjoy being a student of the MAs and am glad that is separated from my "working" life.

You follow?  : )


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 23, 2015)

Zero said:


> Yes, that's understood.  But kind of line with what Steve and DD were saying, it can be nice to have a delineation between "work" and "play".  If your work is "playing" you are still essentially doing that for others' gain or benefit, either your employer or you clients/customers. An old mate of mine loved sailing and he sails for Oracle but that is hard work and that is his job and he is doing this, while for himself, also primarily for Oracle.  It is they he is ultimately performing for.
> 
> Even guys who "play" solely for themselves so they are the only ones that benefit from their performance, such as professional gamblers or competitive fishermen or professional "gamers", ultimately their pay cheque is riding on how they perform.  And when you get to that level you probably (hopefully!) have sponsors and endorsements and so you find you are actually performing for others which have a vested (or entirely money-focused) interested never-the-less.
> 
> ...



Right, I see what you mean. I would just like to point out though that there are people who don't have to work, at least not work for money, they happen to be really wealthy and easily have financial security for the rest of their lives, but they do work full time and overtime because they love their job so much, not because they need the money. But yes, its nice to be doing some stuff just for fun and not have your performance affect any kind of income. I do know what you mean when you do stuff just for fun and not have to worry about how much money you will make doing it because its not the kind of stuff that you make money doing. A good example of that would be going on vacation. I know from my own experience that going on vacation is hard work, its fun but there's lots of work you need to do. However, you don't get paid doing it rather you pay to do to. I was in Epcot down in Orlando this New Years and it was hard work and I had to pay to do it, I had to pay for gas, hotel rooms, Epcot admission, ect. but it was a lot of fun. It was fun enough that I considered it well worth the work and money I had to put forth to do it.

Anyway, how about if you've got a hobby that you can make money doing? I've got a cousin does beekeeping as a hobby. He worked as an electrical engineer as his main job but he was also a beekeeper as something he just did for fun. There are professional beekeepers who do it as a full time job but not him, however he would sell the honey that he would make from he beekeeping. He did beekeeping just on the side as something he enjoyed doing and he was by no means obligated to do it but he was also able to make some extra dollars doing it. If you can make some extra dollars doing a fun hobby, why not?


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## Steve (Jan 23, 2015)

Different things motivate people.  You make a good point, PhotonGuy.  It's just not a universal truth.  Some people are extremely happy doing what they love for money.  I'm not built that way.  Now, this doesn't mean I don't love my job.  I do love it... usually.  But as DD said, I have to do it even when I don't love it, because it is an obligation.  It is work. 

Regarding money, it's not even that.  While I have no problems making money through a hobby, as soon as the hobby becomes an obligation for me (money involved or not), it becomes less fun.


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