# Wrestling vs BJJ



## PhotonGuy (Sep 27, 2016)

I vaguely remember seeing some fights between the Gracies and professional wrestlers. The Gracies were able to win because wrestlers don't train to defend against the various submission holds that BJJ uses they train to pin and to defend against being pinned. A wrestler would have no problem pinning a BJJ practitioner although a BJJ practitioner wouldn't care if they're pinned. The rules of wrestling state that you win by pinning your opponent for a three count or you win by points. Also, chokes and submission holds are how you win in BJJ but such techniques are not allowed in wrestling. So if a wrestler and a BJJ practitioner were to fight under rules where you would win by pinning and where chokes and submissions weren't allowed they would clearly favor wrestling but if the rules allowed chokes and submissions and said that that's how you win and not by pinning than they would clearly favor BJJ. So as to which style is more effective I would say it depends on what style's rules you're fighting under.


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## drop bear (Sep 27, 2016)




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## Headhunter (Sep 27, 2016)

Oh not one of these again there's only so many times you can hear the reply it depends on the practitioner


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## KangTsai (Sep 27, 2016)

There's pin wrestling and submission wrestling. Pure wrestlers emphasise athleticism and strength more heavily than BJJ does, which focuses more on technique. If two people of similar weight (one BJJ and one submission wrestling) start grappling with the same experience, I would always assume the BJJ guy would win most of the time. However, ultimately:


Headhunter said:


> it depends on the practitioner


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 27, 2016)

Headhunter said:


> Oh not one of these again there's only so many times you can hear the reply it depends on the practitioner



I would agree with that but you can say that about all martial arts. As to which art would win it depends on the practitioner. The success of the Gracies might be saying something about the effectiveness of BJJ but than again their success, if you ask me, is not because of their style but because the Gracies work hard. 

But also, as I've pointed out, it also depends on the rules you're fighting under. A wrestler would have no problem pinning a BJJ practitioner so if the rules say that you win by pinning than the wrestler would win. On the contrary if the rules say you win by submitting your opponent the BJJ practitioner would win. 

I've never heard of submission wrestling so I don't know the rules but based on its name I would assume you win by submission just like BJJ.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 27, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> I would agree with that but you can say that about all martial arts. As to which art would win it depends on the practitioner.


Yes. This is the point made during each of these threads, which you are already aware of.



> But also, as I've pointed out, it also depends on the rules you're fighting under. A wrestler would have no problem pinning a BJJ practitioner so if the rules say that you win by pinning than the wrestler would win. On the contrary if the rules say you win by submitting your opponent the BJJ practitioner would win.
> 
> I've never heard of submission wrestling so I don't know the rules but based on its name I would assume you win by submission just like BJJ.



So basically, whoever has more experience with the rules that are being used has a better shot of winning a match. 

Both of the arguments that you're making are mostly common sense and have been stated to death on this forum. Is there some new aspect of them you'd like to point out, or just want to rehash old statements?


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## punisher73 (Sep 28, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> I would agree with that but you can say that about all martial arts. As to which art would win it depends on the practitioner. The success of the Gracies might be saying something about the effectiveness of BJJ but than again their success, if you ask me, is not because of their style but because the Gracies work hard.
> 
> But also, as I've pointed out, it also depends on the rules you're fighting under. A wrestler would have no problem pinning a BJJ practitioner so if the rules say that you win by pinning than the wrestler would win. On the contrary if the rules say you win by submitting your opponent the BJJ practitioner would win.
> 
> I've never heard of submission wrestling so I don't know the rules but based on its name I would assume you win by submission just like BJJ.



I'm blanking on his name right now, but the best Gracie from their family (Rolls?) trained alot with top level wrestlers to make his GJJ better.  He incorporated alot of their takedowns and counters into what he did and passed on to Rickson.  It is cliche, but it comes down to who is better prepared to implement their game plan.

Also, from my limited experience.  Wrestlers that start training BJJ usually advance and catch on very quickly.  I don't know of any BJJers that switched to wrestling to know the carry over on skills for that sport.


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## kuniggety (Sep 28, 2016)

I'm not really sure the point of this thread. It just boils down to, in a competition setting which disallows a BJJ practitioner to use the skills that they've trained, that they'd lose? I think that goes with any other martial art. I can tell you this.... The Gracies don't care. It was first and foremost a fighting art tested in vale tudo style no holds barred fighting. I could care less if a wrestler could beat me in a wrestling match. I train for submission.


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## JR 137 (Sep 28, 2016)

@PhotonGuy  -

A few things (I'm not good at cutting and pasting multiple quotes)...

True wrestling doesn't require a 3 count for a pin; the referee slaps the mat 1 time when both shoulder blades touch the mat.  The 3 count is entertainment (aka pro) wrestling.  The pro wrestlers Royce Gracie faced early on in the UFC weren't entertainment wrestlers.

Wrestling originated with fighters, or more specifically warriors. Wrestling as we know it (though it looks different today then way back then) was developed as a way for warriors to compete against each other using their warrior skills without killing each other just like the other original (or better yet traditional) Olympic sports such as archery, track & field, etc.

As far as wrestlers catching on quicker than lay people, yes and no.  Early on they have a huge advantage over fellow beginners and can hang with intermediate students better than other beginners, but they have to unlearn a lot of things that'll slow their progress down and even it all out.  Wrestlers don't typically train submission, and more importantly, they avoid their going to their backs and staying their at almost all cost.  I know several good collegiate wrestlers who took up BJJ later on. They all said after the first few months, they weren't much better off; they were initially, but as everyone else progressed, the others caught up.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 28, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> True wrestling doesn't require a 3 count for a pin; the referee slaps the mat 1 time when both shoulder blades touch the mat.  The 3 count is entertainment (aka pro) wrestling.  The pro wrestlers Royce Gracie faced early on in the UFC weren't entertainment wrestlers.


When I wrestled in summer camp and in jr high school the referee slapped the mat 1 time when both shoulder blades touched the mat as you mentioned, but the shoulder blades would have to be touching for approx 3 seconds before he slaps the mat.



JR 137 said:


> Wrestling originated with fighters, or more specifically warriors. Wrestling as we know it (though it looks different today then way back then) was developed as a way for warriors to compete against each other using their warrior skills without killing each other just like the other original (or better yet traditional) Olympic sports such as archery, track & field, etc.


I do know they wrestled in ancient Greece, Im not familiar with the form of wrestling they did and the techniques they used. 



JR 137 said:


> As far as wrestlers catching on quicker than lay people, yes and no.  Early on they have a huge advantage over fellow beginners and can hang with intermediate students better than other beginners, but they have to unlearn a lot of things that'll slow their progress down and even it all out.  Wrestlers don't typically train submission, and more importantly, they avoid their going to their backs and staying their at almost all cost.  I know several good collegiate wrestlers who took up BJJ later on. They all said after the first few months, they weren't much better off; they were initially, but as everyone else progressed, the others caught up.



That makes sense. Wrestling is in some ways similar to BJJ, they both are primarily done on the mat, but there are some big differences. As you said, a wrestler would have to unlearn those differences in order to be effective in BJJ.


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## JR 137 (Sep 29, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> When I wrestled in summer camp and in jr high school the referee slapped the mat 1 time when both shoulder blades touched the mat as you mentioned, but the shoulder blades would have to be touching for approx 3 seconds before he slaps the mat.
> 
> 
> I do know they wrestled in ancient Greece, Im not familiar with the form of wrestling they did and the techniques they used.
> ...



As far as Ancient Greece wrestling, I've heard Pankration.  Not sure if that's it or even what Pankration truly is, but that term has been associated with it.

As far as the 3 seconds before the ref slapped the mat, never heard that before.  I wrestled from 3rd grade through graduating high school.  I helped coach on and off for about 10 years afterward.  Your experience with it could've been modified rules for younger kids and beginners.  I actually like that rule for young beginners, as it gives them more of a chance to keep going, but I see the downside as some referees will slap the mat quicker or slower than others, causing a lot of issues with the overly competitive coaches and parents.  In my experience it's always been once both shoulder blades touch the mat (unless the wrestlers are rolling their opponents).


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## kuniggety (Sep 29, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> As far as wrestlers catching on quicker than lay people, yes and no.  Early on they have a huge advantage over fellow beginners and can hang with intermediate students better than other beginners, but they have to unlearn a lot of things that'll slow their progress down and even it all out.  Wrestlers don't typically train submission, and more importantly, they avoid their going to their backs and staying their at almost all cost.  I know several good collegiate wrestlers who took up BJJ later on. They all said after the first few months, they weren't much better off; they were initially, but as everyone else progressed, the others caught up.



I would caveat this by saying they don't have an advantage on the bottom but they certainly do the top. I've known folks with a wrestling background who just take more a catch wrestling approach when on top. But as soon as they're swept , taken to the ground, etc is where it falls apart.


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## Buka (Sep 29, 2016)

I know we say "_it's not the art, it's the practitioner_" ad nauseum, but there's always new folks coming aboard who don't really grasp that, and hey, it's a truth of life.

Yes, Rolls, was the best (at least according to every Gracie I've spoken with) and I've heard he trained with wrestlers. He's also the last person to submit Rickson, I believe when Rickson was a blue belt. (maybe purple, but I seem to remember blue)

I hate fighting wrestlers. They never seem to get tired (and they always ground me into meat). It's like they have an engine inside them. Several of my students were wrestlers, then never got tired training striking, which was terrific.

I've watched Rickson roll with a ton of wrestlers, too many to remember. It was obvious he had done so for many years. Really fun to watch close up. Especially the looks on the faces of the wrestlers because they didn't really know who they were grappling with. (long time ago)


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## drop bear (Sep 29, 2016)

Buka said:


> I know we say "_it's not the art, it's the practitioner_" ad nauseum, but there's always new folks coming aboard who don't really grasp that,



And still something I dont see. My art makes better practitioners. Those wrestlers were not born hard. their training created that. The gracies were not amazing and just happened to do gjj.


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## Hanzou (Sep 29, 2016)

Rolling against wrestlers is the worst. It's especially bad when it's a wrestler with extensive Bjj training. When they first start, I can usually trick them into stuff because they don't know what's happening. The look on their faces when you submit them from bottom or sweeping them are classic experiences.

The really big guys are especially fun because they're used to just sitting on top of people and smashing them. However, dealing with an upper blue belt and above who has a wrestling background is a nightmare. They tend to have superb top pressure and excellent stamina and you're almost always going to be fighting from the bottom.


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## JR 137 (Sep 29, 2016)

No surprise to me.  A wrestler's job is to put you on your back and stay off their's.  Its unnatural for a wrestler to be on top and not be in control, i.e. get submitted; it goes against everything they've learned.  Wrestlers don't lose when they're on top.  

As for having superb top pressure, well that's just about everything for a wrestler.  And wrestlers learn why conditioning is crucial very quickly.

I miss being on the mat.


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## Steve (Sep 29, 2016)

Wrestling is BJJ.  That's the thing.  If it works, BJJ has no problem absorbing it.  There is no wrestling vs BJJ.  A wrestler is just person who grapples and has some holes in his game.  No different from anyone else.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 30, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> As far as Ancient Greece wrestling, I've heard Pankration.  Not sure if that's it or even what Pankration truly is, but that term has been associated with it.
> 
> As far as the 3 seconds before the ref slapped the mat, never heard that before.  I wrestled from 3rd grade through graduating high school.  I helped coach on and off for about 10 years afterward.  Your experience with it could've been modified rules for younger kids and beginners.  I actually like that rule for young beginners, as it gives them more of a chance to keep going, but I see the downside as some referees will slap the mat quicker or slower than others, causing a lot of issues with the overly competitive coaches and parents.  In my experience it's always been once both shoulder blades touch the mat (unless the wrestlers are rolling their opponents).



From what I know Pankration is a combination of boxing and wrestling from ancient Greece.

My wrestling coaches said that you would win a wrestling match by pinning your opponent for a three count, or you could win by points. If your opponent's shoulder blades touched the mat for approx 3 seconds they would slap the mat. They didn't count out loud like referees in boxing matches do when a boxer is knocked down but it was more or less a 3 second count.


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## JR 137 (Sep 30, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> From what I know Pankration is a combination of boxing and wrestling from ancient Greece.
> 
> My wrestling coaches said that you would win a wrestling match by pinning your opponent for a three count, or you could win by points. If your opponent's shoulder blades touched the mat for approx 3 seconds they would slap the mat. They didn't count out loud like referees in boxing matches do when a boxer is knocked down but it was more or less a 3 second count.



Im not calling you a liar, saying you're mistaken or anything else in any way, but I've never heard of the 3 seconds before a pin.  At any level.  It has to be a modified rule in your area/with the group you were involved with.  Nothing wrong with it at all if it was used for beginners, but don't base all wrestling on that rule.


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## KangTsai (Sep 30, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> From what I know Pankration is a combination of boxing and wrestling from ancient Greece.



A more accurate description is just MMA. Two men fought naked, they could strike anywhere with anything, wrestle, ground and pound, and they lost upon knockout or submission only.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 30, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Im not calling you a liar, saying you're mistaken or anything else in any way, but I've never heard of the 3 seconds before a pin.  At any level.  It has to be a modified rule in your area/with the group you were involved with.  Nothing wrong with it at all if it was used for beginners, but don't base all wrestling on that rule.



Well that's how it was done in my summer camp and that's how the coach explained it. Maybe it's done differently in other camps, schools, or wrestling organizations but that was my experience.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 30, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> A more accurate description is just MMA. Two men fought naked, they could strike anywhere with anything, wrestle, ground and pound, and they lost upon knockout or submission only.



Well yes, you could say Pankration was the MMA of the ancient Greeks.


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