# scary sparring situation...



## Tlaloc (May 23, 2007)

So I was just thinking of this one situation where I was doing sparring in class, and I got hit in such a way that almost scared me from doing any more martial arts and I feel I just had to vent about it (not sure why this popped in my head right now).

Basically I got side kicked right in the throat, but the kick was just high enough so that my jaw caught it a bit and I just ended up biting my tongue really hard by accident. So for the most part, I walked away fine (even though my tongue was bleeding and then hurt for about a week), but I was still really shaken up by almost getting a solid kick right to my throat.

Has anyone else had a situation like that?


----------



## Chizikunbo (May 23, 2007)

Tlaloc said:


> So I was just thinking of this one situation where I was doing sparring in class, and I got hit in such a way that almost scared me from doing any more martial arts and I feel I just had to vent about it (not sure why this popped in my head right now).
> 
> Basically I got side kicked right in the throat, but the kick was just high enough so that my jaw caught it a bit and I just ended up biting my tongue really hard by accident. So for the most part, I walked away fine (even though my tongue was bleeding and then hurt for about a week), but I was still really shaken up by almost getting a solid kick right to my throat.
> 
> Has anyone else had a situation like that?



I have experienced such things in tournaments, and they were generally not accidents. In the dojang it can happen on occasion, but I have found most students can control their body well enough to avoid such things...
--josh


----------



## MA-Caver (May 23, 2007)

Tlaloc said:


> So I was just thinking of this one situation where I was doing sparring in class, and I got hit in such a way that almost scared me from doing any more martial arts and I feel I just had to vent about it (not sure why this popped in my head right now).
> 
> Basically I got side kicked right in the throat, but the kick was just high enough so that my jaw caught it a bit and I just ended up biting my tongue really hard by accident. So for the most part, I walked away fine (even though my tongue was bleeding and then hurt for about a week), but I was still really shaken up by almost getting a solid kick right to my throat.
> 
> Has anyone else had a situation like that?


The smart-alec side of me really really wants control of the keyboard right now but I'm fighting it... 

I've had my thumb micro-fractured when blocking a kick to my groin in a sparring match with a ninjitsu student. It was my bad that I didn't have my thumb tucked in like it should've been, but it was (IMO) more his bad that he didn't pull his kick back enough to (not) cause the fracture. If he had made contact with my nether regions with the force he originally applied ... I'd think I'd be writing this from Prison...

Basically talk to your instructor about it and talk to the person who administered the kick. They should've been in control at all times and watchful, ever watchful of where their foot/fist is going and know that they need to pull back. This is sparring, a what-if scenario to help you assess your skill level as realistically as possible at that point in time. 
Even in a tournament setting, control must be maintained by both contestants to ensure severe injury won't occur during the match. It is recklessness and carelessness when your tournament opponent gets seriously injured by you... and vice-versa. 

A good martial artist can perform all the skills necessary pertaining to their chosen art. A *GREAT* martial artist has complete control over these skills and themselves. Just like those movies where you see a samurai warrior swinging full tilt their sword at someone's neck and stopping just a hair's breath away from making contact with the skin's surface... something like that example (as far-fetched as it may seem... but you get the picture).


----------



## Master K (May 24, 2007)

First, I am assuming that this was supposed to be contact sparring, but this may be a mistake on your part based on your description of the events. 

Accidents are going to happen when you are sparring.  After years of sparring with various people in different styles I can safely say that you will develop a feeling for the "tone" of the other person's actions.  For instance, I can tell if the other person is seriosuly trying to hurt me versus they simply misjudged distance, timing, speed, or whatever caused the contact.  With that said, were you the senior belt in the match?  There are implications if you are or are not.  Generally speaking the senior belt allows the juniors to set the tone of the match, meaning how much force and contact are acceptable.  Once it starts to go over the line, then it is up to the senior belt to "re-adjust" the tone.  This can be done by pausing in the match to verbally tell the junior to "calm down" and pull your punches, or a message can be sent by striking the junior and letting them know that they are crossing a line.

Without seeing the match, there is only minimal advice I can offer to you. But two things stand out as a member of the striking martial arts that will help you based on your description of the events.  


Always have a mouth guard in for sparring.   
Always tuck your chin in.  This will help protect your throat.
 I hope that you do not let the contact discourage you from continuing your journey in the martial arts.  Sparring is dangerous and there is going to be contact in sparring.  How much contact and such should be controlled by the senior belt and/or instructor(s).

Best of luck to you,
Patrick K.


----------



## JT_the_Ninja (May 24, 2007)

I've been kicked in the goodies more times than I'd like to mention while sparring in class.

I did have one near heart-attack moment a while ago, though, so I'll describe it.

One of the students at my dojang (who just got promoted to sam dan) is a 14-year-old who's taller than me and must have an IV of milk directly into his bones every day, because every time I block one of his attacks - in sparring, il soo sik, or whatever - it feels like a metal rod's slamming into me, which isn't my typical experience blocking.

Anyway, being that he's 2/3 my age and doesn't have my asthma problem, sparring him is always "fun," especially because, as we're pretty much the same height, we're usually paired up for anything in class. So I know to be careful in sparring him, because even though we spar with gear on (most of the time) and with "no-contact" as the rule (yeah right), I've often been delivered a few painful blows. 

So imagine me slipping and overturning on a back wheel kick (dwi dul ryo chagi) and finding myself, for a moment or two, with my back turned to him and two inches away from him. I thought that was gonna be the end for me. Luckily, I managed to get my footing again and turn back around, though my heart rate didn't recover for a while.

Then there was the time I took a back wheel kick to the back of the neck from another of my seniors (who also just got promoted to sam dan). Fun. Good thing my neck is pretty durn thick. Didn't hurt, just made me put my guard up more.


----------



## Makalakumu (May 24, 2007)

The thing to remember is that doing MA is like doing any physical activity where contact is allowed.  Injuries happen.  In fact, I remember reading a study that showed that the rate of injuries for most sports were higher then for Martial Arts.

You were much more likely to get hurt playing basketball then you would be if you were doing karate.


----------



## Tlaloc (May 24, 2007)

Thanks for the info and support everyone.  And to clarify things, we don't do full contact sparring at our school, but with the class we have, it does happen rather frequently.  At the time, he was 4 gup and I was 8 gup, and the drill we were doing was pretty crazy- 1 person faces a whole line of the rest of the class (about 8 people) and fights them all one at a time, first point wins. 

It was definitely just an accident on his part. He was the one that had to face the rest of the class, and while he did well, he did end up hurting most of us! but knowing the kid, it wasnt at all intentional and he did apologize to me several times, so I did not take it personally at all. 

While we're on the topic of control in sparring, I have a friend in the class (same rank as I am) whom I practice sparring constantly outside of class.  Alot of times I got somewhat frustrated with him because he was one of those people who naturally just goes all out on their opponent and has a hard time holding back and controlling themselves.  Recently, he's been learning the flaws in this and getting alot better...


----------



## jks9199 (May 24, 2007)

Tlaloc said:


> Thanks for the info and support everyone.  And to clarify things, we don't do full contact sparring at our school, but with the class we have, it does happen rather frequently.  At the time, he was 4 gup and I was 8 gup, and the drill we were doing was pretty crazy- 1 person faces a whole line of the rest of the class (about 8 people) and fights them all one at a time, first point wins.
> 
> It was definitely just an accident on his part. He was the one that had to face the rest of the class, and while he did well, he did end up hurting most of us! but knowing the kid, it wasnt at all intentional and he did apologize to me several times, so I did not take it personally at all.
> 
> While we're on the topic of control in sparring, I have a friend in the class (same rank as I am) whom I practice sparring constantly outside of class.  Alot of times I got somewhat frustrated with him because he was one of those people who naturally just goes all out on their opponent and has a hard time holding back and controlling themselves.  Recently, he's been learning the flaws in this and getting alot better...


That class has a problem, and the problem is the instructor.

Low ranks should be closely supervised in any sparring situation, and the exercise should be closely controlled.  The simple fact that one student hurt "most" of the other 7 in the class tells me that the instructor wasn't paying attention, and wasn't ensuring the safety of the students.  That's HIS job.  Your job is to do the best to control your techniques that you can.

With regard to students who don't control their power -- they need to learn.  It's that simple.  I have to be very, very careful; I'm naturally strong, and I have good technique, which means I often can find myself releasing more power than I realize UNLESS I pay attention.  If I injure a student (or partner) by hitting them a too hard, I'm wrong.  (Of course, I also figure I'm wrong if they hit me...  I just can't win!)  Sure, bumps and bruises will happen in contact sports -- but that doesn't mean you have to nonchalantly ignore the cause.


----------



## JT_the_Ninja (May 26, 2007)

I actually find that there's a bit of an aggressiveness bell curve.

That is, white belts start out very cautious, not sure of what to do, since they don't know a lot. Once they get to yellow-orange belt, though, having been at it for 6 months or more, they start to get more agressive, because they learn that they can do some more techniques, and they want to look strong. The problem here is that they often don't have control yet. They just flurry away. Then at red or black belt, students typically tone it down, controlling their kicks, waiting for the opening, and keeping the pressure going for more than one attack at a time. It's actually safer, then, to be fighting higher belts, especially if you're a lower belt, at least at a decent school where the higher ranks have been disciplined in self-control all this time. 

Still nothing wrong with having a battle face on, though >


----------



## Butch (May 28, 2007)

When your sparring things happen, you zig when you should have zaged. Like what has been mention before the lower belt sets the pace, but in that I have in the past 15 years been hurt more by whit belts trying to prove what they can do than I have by senior ranks. I would chalk it up to a no be there type of thing in other words don't just focus on yourself focus on what the other person is doing as well.
Butch


----------



## jks9199 (May 28, 2007)

Butch said:


> When your sparring things happen, you zig when you should have zaged. Like what has been mention before the lower belt sets the pace, but in that I have in the past 15 years been hurt more by whit belts trying to prove what they can do than I have by senior ranks. I would chalk it up to a no be there type of thing in other words don't just focus on yourself focus on what the other person is doing as well.
> Butch


There are two vary dangerous points in a martial artists growth.  The first is as a beginner, when he or she lacks discipline, skill, and awareness of their own capability.  They'll throw things full power when they should be half-power, and half-power when you expect full, get techniques right at the damndest moments and generally just do things that you just can't predict.  Then, somewhere just before black belt (or the equivalent), when they have all the skill, but not quite all the control PLUS the desire to prove themselves.  You have to watch out at this stage because they're capable of doing serious harm -- but haven't quite acquired or mastered the control to avoid misusing it.

As I posted previously -- in this particular instance, I feel that the instructor was not supervising the class appropriately.  I've pulled students out of an exercise (and sent one or two off the floor for the night!) for failing to use proper control.  I don't feel that it's generally appropriate for the instructor to injure a student unless other methods of driving the point home have failed.


----------



## Butch (May 28, 2007)

I watch my students closely and pair up the ones that like a little more contact than others, but it is still something that you can't control in sparring. Oh yeah you can after the fact tell a student that he should have been aware of little johnny's moving in while you where doing that side kick, but on the floor if your focus is to much on self and not on your oppponent then your going to get hit in contact sparring. There is no dodging the human factor during a contact sparring situation unless your standing on the sideline. Now I'm not saying that everytime your on the floor your going to get nailed, but as anyone that has spent time on the floor punching and kicking (I'm not talking tournament sparring here) you are going to recieve and give contact that isn't ment to be that hard.
Butch


----------



## Callandor (May 28, 2007)

Tlaloc said:


> While we're on the topic of control in sparring, I have a friend in the class (same rank as I am) whom I practice sparring constantly outside of class.  Alot of times I got somewhat frustrated with him because he was one of those people who naturally just goes all out on their opponent and has a hard time holding back and controlling themselves.  Recently, he's been learning the flaws in this and getting alot better...


Yeah, I have a classmate in TKD who is many years younger than me (he's in high school) and who tells me to be easy on him just before "shijak". After shijak, he always try to beat me good! He seems to be enjoying it.


----------



## jks9199 (May 28, 2007)

Butch said:


> I watch my students closely and pair up the ones that like a little more contact than others, but it is still something that you can't control in sparring. Oh yeah you can after the fact tell a student that he should have been aware of little johnny's moving in while you where doing that side kick, but on the floor if your focus is to much on self and not on your oppponent then your going to get hit in contact sparring. There is no dodging the human factor during a contact sparring situation unless your standing on the sideline. Now I'm not saying that everytime your on the floor your going to get nailed, but as anyone that has spent time on the floor punching and kicking (I'm not talking tournament sparring here) you are going to recieve and give contact that isn't ment to be that hard.
> Butch


But, in the incident that came up in this thread, the same student injured 7 others during an exercise.

One happens.  You do what you can, but it happens.  Two...  maybe.  But after two...  No.  The instructor should be paying attention and taking control of the situation.  To do less is irresponsible, disprespectful to the other students, and just plain careless.

In general, bumps, bruises, and mild injuries happen during serious martial arts training.  But an instructor has a responsibility to make every effort to safeguard students from careless injuries or injuries caused when other students fail to obey directions.


----------



## mjd (May 29, 2007)

Tlaloc said:


> Basically I got side kicked right in the throat, but the kick was just high enough so that my jaw caught it a bit and I just ended up biting my tongue really hard by accident. So for the most part, I walked away fine (even though my tongue was bleeding and then hurt for about a week), but I was still really shaken up by almost getting a solid kick right to my throat.


 
Month piece, (keep mouth shut), and improve your blocking, ducking, general avoidance movement.


----------



## zDom (May 29, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> There are two vary dangerous points in a martial artists growth.  The first is as a beginner, when he or she lacks discipline, skill, and awareness of their own capability.  They'll throw things full power when they should be half-power, and half-power when you expect full, get techniques right at the damndest moments and generally just do things that you just can't predict.  Then, somewhere just before black belt (or the equivalent), when they have all the skill, but not quite all the control PLUS the desire to prove themselves.  You have to watch out at this stage because they're capable of doing serious harm -- but haven't quite acquired or mastered the control to avoid misusing it.



Same thing I've seen: white/yellow and red belts are the worst


----------



## Lynne (May 30, 2007)

I'm a white belt (just have been traing three weeks) but I've watched my daughter's classes and some of the sparring classes for 8 months.

We have sparring during class about every other week (part of the curriculum for the whole week).  There are also sparring classes for Black Belts and Black Belt Club (BBC) members twice a week.

I saw a brand new orange belt female, who had just joined BBC attend her first sparring class.  She paired with a black belt.  He hit her in the side of the head.  Kaboom!  She hit the ground. She was dazed. I don't know if he actually knocked her out.  She is small, short.  He's tall and built like a brickhouse so it would be easy for him to knock most newbies down.  I know he's used to sparring with some of the other black belt males or more experienced females.  I saw him spar at a later class with a black belt female.  He knocked her down, too.  She seemed a bit angry with him so there may be more going on.  She's a black belt so she knows what to expect in sparring.  I don't know to what degree men hold back when they spar with a female? Should they?

We do have one teenage orange belt, "D," who is very uncontrolled with his kicks.  The rumor is that he also likes to "pick on" the lower belts.  We do know the instructors "usually" won't let him spar with females.  Before my daughter was an orange belt, she was paired with "D" for one-on-one kicking.  He kept kicking her.  It's no contact - 0.  One of the instructors saw him hit my daughter, came over and punched his arm so hard he almost fell down.  The instructor told him, "Don't you dare hit her again!"

Just recently, my daughter was paired with "D."  Two instructors were watching the entire time.  I'm happy to report that she faked "D" out with a fake back fist and then sidekicked him in the solar plexus and forced him out of the ring   

Well, as luck would have it, I was paired with "D" for one-on-one kicking.  The kid kicked me three times.  I'm not apt to complain too much because they were light kicks.  But that tells me something:  he knew exactly what he was doing...if he were sparring, he wouldn't have kicked me lightly.  So, from that standpoint, it makes me angry because I believe he's trying to pull shenanigans, to see what he can get away with.  Obviously, he's developing some control. (I have to laugh - During his first sparring class, he kept hitting his green belt partner in the buttocks with a roundhouse kick!)

Next time, "D" kicks me during one-on-one, I'm tempted to grab his foot or leg and hold onto it and watch him hop around on one leg! 

I think Mr. "D" is going to be a problem.  Fortunately, the instructors are aware.


----------



## JT_the_Ninja (May 30, 2007)

Lynne:  I've both seen and been that person, unfortunately.


----------



## Lynne (May 31, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Lynne: I've both seen and been that person, unfortunately.


We all do things we regret.  It's just part of life. 

As far as the kid I was speaking of, there are more things going on that wouldn't be appropriate to talk about.  And he's young.  An educated guess would be that he's been picked on himself.

If he sticks with martial arts, I imagine he'll become a disciplined man within the Dojang and outside of the Dojang.  I see that he is very polite. 

He did have a bad attitude in class the other day, saying he wasn't going to work on his back stance because he couldn't get it and never would.  He gave up and threw a fit.  I don't think the instructors knew what to do with him.  I think some of the students were hoping he'd be sent home for the night.  Master R was on the floor but he was working with another group of students.  I'm not sure what Master R would have done if he knew what was going on. But the kid could have used the discipline in that case.

If you are speaking about the black belt, I don't know what to think about him.  I can't really judge him because I don't know him personally.  It could also be that he's not used to sparring much smaller people.


----------



## Kaygee (Jun 7, 2012)

I have been hurt in my dojang, in tournaments while sparring or just doing ho sin sul.

The #2 self defense of 5th gup has the opponent grab both of your hands and push them inwards, towards each other. You allow the inward push, and then you reach under and grab the other hand, pull his other hand towards you to open up his throat area, and soo do them to the throat. That has happened to me on several occasions, and others.

I have left class on two seperate occasions with concussions after being kicked in the head and once in the jaw....the jaw kick was real hard...I went in for a punch but leaned too far into it, and as I fell forward, my opponent came round with a back kick and my face was right in line with his foot.
One time, when my brother and I were sparring, I went up with an inside-outside kick (and I can get them super high) but while my kick was at its highest peak, he decided to charge me and my heel got him in the head right above the eye. He was bleeding pretty bad. I felt horrible!

I have been hit and hurt several times at tournaments. I cant believe some of the contact that they allow after the judge says "no contact gentlemen" right before the match begins. My first tournament ever (I was 8th gup) had me pitted against some maniac younger kid who street fought me all the way. This kid did not throw a single Tang Soo Do move the entire fight. I had bruises on my chest and ribs for a week. After the dude punched me in the head, I decided to fight back the same way. I received a warning when I hit him square in the nose (I can street fight too). Then after he hit me hard again in the side of the head, I hit him hard in the forehead and I got disqualified.

I have also broken my toe while sparring, which I guess is my fault. A roundhouse kick to the head did that. Last October I was at a tournament and I got punched in the mouth hard! No foul was called so I stepped out of the ring, (even though I was told not to by the judge) took my mouth piece out and thought to myself, "if all of my teeth aren't there, I'm going to run into that ring and flip out.....

Luckily, they were all there when I felt around in my mouth.


----------



## Manny (Jun 14, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> I have been hurt in my dojang, in tournaments while sparring or just doing ho sin sul.
> 
> The #2 self defense of 5th gup has the opponent grab both of your hands and push them inwards, towards each other. You allow the inward push, and then you reach under and grab the other hand, pull his other hand towards you to open up his throat area, and soo do them to the throat. That has happened to me on several occasions, and others.
> 
> ...




Yes, I've been there. I got a nice KO in a test, it was a spining hook kick that caught me rightr in the jaw, I went down instantainly, since that day my parets quit to go see me at test and tournamets, I had broken theet from a tornado kick right to my mouth and a broken nose with a spining hook kick (again), battered shins, a fisurtaed foot and a broken toe, several low kicks to the jewels, etc,etc, but this hard blows never make me quit TKD.

Manny


----------

