# TSD and TKD



## Nightingale (Sep 18, 2003)

what are the main differences between these two styles? what are their similarities?


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## mtabone (Sep 18, 2003)

(WARNING: THE FOLLOWING IS A GENERAL DISCRIPTION PLEASE BE ADVISED AND DO  NOT TAKE OFFENSE!!! THANK YOU)


Tang Soo Do is the art from which Tae Kwon Do came from. Tae Kwon Do sas most of thier emphisis on Kicking and is usualy more sports oreinted. TKD is also the largest martial art in the world (Tai Chi can actualy be argued for largest, but is is at least the largest Karate practiced in the world).

Tang Soo Do is about 50/50 hands/feet, as well as joint locks, grabs, thows, self defence, trapping, ect. Tang Soo Do is more philisophical and ART oreinted.

I know I might get posts shotting me down for saying some of this stuff. I am aware that not all TKD is only sport oreinted, as well I know there is some Tang Soo Do that is not really Tang Soo Do.  But understand, I am only talking generaly here....

If you also just look at the names you can also see the differnce:

Tae Kwon Do : Way of the Hands and Feet (implies only phisical traing)

Tang Soo Do : Way of the Virtues (China/Empty) Hand (implies phisical and mental training)

The simularities : They are Both Korean. They both have punches, blocks and kicks.

So does Shotokan. So does Kung Fu. ect ect ect.......

Forms are different and use of hip is emphisied more in Tang Soo Do. 

Again, I am speaking generaly here.

(just so everyone knows, generaly is the key word)

:asian: 

TANG SOO!!!

M.Tabone


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## MountainSage (Sep 19, 2003)

I agree the TSD and TKD came from the same base arts, I believe they were just different kwan prior to the combining that created TKD and the TSD folks chose not to play that game.  TKD is Karate influenced art, probably coming from the Shotokan system and TSD is Chinese influenced which is more than likely closer to the orgininal Korean MAs.  As a TKD person I would have to say,IMHO, that TSD is more like a traditional Korean MA than TKD.

Mountainsage


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## Nightingale (Sep 19, 2003)

what does kwan mean?


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## Shinzu (Sep 19, 2003)

i believe it is translated as school or group.

eg:  moo duk kwan = school of martial virture.


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## arnisador (Sep 19, 2003)

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=917


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## mtabone (Sep 19, 2003)

The Hyungs we do are Japanes in origin. We have the Pyung Ahns (Pinans/Hinans), Ni Han Ji (NahBoJin) (I dont know the Shotokan name) ect ect ect...

We also have the Chil Sung forms.

I do agree that Tang Soo Do has definent Chinies influences, one can see that be the observation of soft and hard execution of tech. Though, we have alot of Japanes (Shotokan) influences as well. 

I once heard someone joke around after hering that JKD is an "Artless Art." So he said, "TSD is stylized JKD." That always makes me smile. 

TANG SOO!!!

M.Tabone


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## Teacher (Sep 21, 2003)

Just a little clarification for the readers.  The classical hyung do predominantly follow the styling used by the Japanese (which they refer to as Kata).  However, the majority of them are evolutions out of a crystalized form developed on Okinawa before Okinawa was officially a part of Japan proper.  Of these, again most of them were based upon art forms from Souther China.  Now...this is not an absolute...as some of the Hyung have migrated to Korea not through Okinawa/Japan but from China directly as well as from places like Taiwan, Hong Kong and Thailand.  The Sang Keuk Kwan form apparently is derived from Preying Mantis Kung Fu as practiced in Thailand which in turn resulted from migrations out of China to avoid the Communist as they took over China.

Please remember the correct translation for Tang Soo Do is "China Hand Way".   There is no mention of virture or knife hand or any of that stuff in the name 'Tang Soo Do'.   The words Moo Duk Kwan mean 'Martial Virtue School'.  In this instance, the use of the word 'Kwan' is most appropriately translated as School.  It may also be translated as 'gymnasium' or 'institute'...but both of these would still be referencing it as a place to learn...i.e. a school.   

Literally, the word 'Dojang' means 'Way Place'...or for you that need a more western translation 'Place of the Way'.  In this instance the words refer to 'Way' as a 'practice', 'methodology' or metaphysically, as a 'discipline'.  Oftne the words are translated as 'school', but a dojang is a lot more than just a school.  The 'practice' overtime time takes on meaning that equals that of religious worship.  While you are not worshiping the art or a member or a school, you do develop an emotional centering during the practice that can easily be equated to the feelings one has during true meaningful worship.  Therefore, a dojang...as a way place...takes on very personal meaning.  A dojang can be anywhere...not necessarily a building.  A favourite spot in a park, or yard, street or hillside can be a dojang.

Commonly, when you see the word 'Kwan' we are referring to a building, whereas when you see it as 'kwon', we are referring to a 'fist'.  Kwon then should be translated as 'fist'....a closed hand.  'Soo' means hand...and usually is referring to an open hand.  This is why we refer to a knife hand as a 'Soo Do' because these two words mean...'Hand and Knife' respectively.


With regard to Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do and Kong Soo Do.  These translations are the most commonly accepted and accurate:

Tang Soo Do  =  China Hand Way
Tae Kwon Do  =  Foot Fist Way
Kong Soo Do  =  Empty Hand Way.

Please be especially careful not to mistake Tang Soo Do with Karate-do as the words are used in Japan.  In Japan, they changed the original character of the first word from Kara meaning China to 'Ku' which means 'empty'.  However, they continued to refer orally to the art as Kara Te Do.  Overtime, Kara then also came to be defined as meaning either 'China' or 'empty' in Japan.  However...that is the only place that the character for Kara has this meaning.  In Korea...the character for 'Kara' is pronounced 'Tang'.  The character for 'Ku' is pronounced 'Kong'. 

Just a few little tid bits that often get confused.

JH


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## cali_tkdbruin (Sep 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mtabone _
> *(WARNING: THE FOLLOWING IS A GENERAL DISCRIPTION PLEASE BE ADVISED AND DO  NOT TAKE OFFENSE!!! THANK YOU)
> 
> 
> ...



Good descriptions. BTW, I come from the TKD school of thought.


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## karatekid1975 (Sep 22, 2003)

I did TSD and now do TKD, and I agree with mtabone's posts. I would have explained it like that, also.


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## Galvatron (Sep 23, 2003)

Hey karatekid, off topic but shouldnt your sig say FORMERLY 5th gup?


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## TallAdam85 (Sep 24, 2003)

tsd and tkd are close in some things but different in others only thing is most tsd people hate tkd people and most tkd hate tsd people you know what i mean Nightingale


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## Mithios (Sep 24, 2003)

In my 24 year's in the martial art's, That is the first time i have ever heard that !! Guess i have to start hatin now(sheeesh) Are you talking about olympic,sport T.K.D. ? If that's the case. I wonder.       MITHIOS


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## karatekid1975 (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Galvatron _
> *Hey karatekid, off topic but shouldnt your sig say FORMERLY 5th gup?
> *



Oops, yea. My spelling is bad LOL


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## Shinzu (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TallAdam85 _
> *tsd and tkd are close in some things but different in others only thing is most tsd people hate tkd people and most tkd hate tsd people you know what i mean Nightingale *



hmmmm... i don't think that is the case at all.  to hate different martial artists because of their style is quite shallow.  maybe those people need to look at the codes and tenets of TSD and TKD.


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## karatekid1975 (Sep 25, 2003)

I agree with Shinzu. The tenets in TSD and TKD are just about the same, as far as I know. And I don't hate people because of the art they study. And I have done both


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## arnisador (Sep 27, 2003)

Leaving out "hate" which is no doubt too strong, is there a lot of friction or tension between TSD and TKD practitioners?

TKD is bigger, but TSD considers itself more self-defense oriented.


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## Shinzu (Sep 27, 2003)

i have never studied TKD so i am not inclined to say which is better or worse.  my TSD school puts a lot of attention to self defense.  my first TSD school did not.  it all depends on where and who you train with, but it is not the martial way to dislike any other students or styles.  after all we are all in it for a common goal of protecting ourselves one way or another.

i dont think the two systems are under competition at all.  if anything they should benefit from each other by being both  korean styles.


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## karatekid1975 (Sep 27, 2003)

Both my TSD and TKD dojangs are self defense oriented. Neither was really into sport, eventhough they did give you the choice of both. They both have joint locks, take-downs, counter- grappling, ect. BUT my TKD school is the one that teaches throws, and ground grappling. Then again I saw dojangs of both syles that are mostly sport. So I say it depends on the school, not the style.

As far as each not liking each other, I have seen it in TSD. A few were TKD bashers. I used to be one of them. Because they think TKD is all sport. I was proven wrong with the dojang I am in now 

But my TSD dojang used to host sparring clinics and TKD people attended and everyone had a blast ..... go figure *shrugs*

I hope that made sense. I'm kinda in a hurry LOL.


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## arnisador (Sep 27, 2003)

Yes *karatekid1975*, it's also been my experience that TSDers are more likely to take a slam at TKDers than the other way around.


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## Teacher (Sep 27, 2003)

Yes...but that is because TKDers are notorious for giving out wholey and grossly inaccurate information, often information they have not researched nor validated themselves but are simply parroting.  TSDers in general....are much more likely to question as well as to confront.  This is predominantly due to changes in attitudes among the various schools in the past decade.

Now this is a broad generalization...so don't jump in my crap about it.


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## arnisador (Sep 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Teacher _
> *don't jump in my crap about it. *



This is a new one for me!


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## RCastillo (Sep 27, 2003)

Appreciate the answers given here, as I've always wondered the difference between the two.

Makes me want to give up on TKD, and take up TSD!

Some questions here:
* What's the biggest/best TSD group out there today?
* Which MA emphasizes stronger kicking? TKD, or TSD?

Thanks
:asian:


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## Shinzu (Sep 28, 2003)

my association is afilliated with grandmaster ho sik pak.  you can check it out at:

http://www.greatwarriorpak.com

im not sure but i think both TKD and TSD do a good amount of kicking.


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## RCastillo (Sep 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shinzu _
> *my association is afilliated with grandmaster ho sik pak.  you can check it out at:
> 
> http://www.greatwarriorpak.com
> ...



I notice he's a young looking guy, as is his association. What sets him apart from Chun Sik Kim, and others like the World TSD Association, and the late Hwang Kee's group?:asian:


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## MountainSage (Sep 28, 2003)

I humbly submit that if it had not been for the introduction of sporting element to TKD that the two would not be that different at this time. TKD has slowly eliminated many of the original elements to speed up the promotion time of BB to under four years, in addition to watering down any skills that would help a person survive a true fight for life or in life in general.  Maybe TKD should have looked harder at Judo's situation.  This is coming from a TKD person.

MountainSage


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## Shinzu (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *I notice he's a young looking guy, as is his association. What sets him apart from Chun Sik Kim, and others like the World TSD Association, and the late Hwang Kee's group?:asian: *



actually my instructors trained with chun sik kim also.  they are all good friends.  my association was once part of the WTSD fed, but broke to start their own with no hard feelings.

the head master instructor at my school trained and tested in front of hwang kee.  i would not say we are very different, we are just another branch on the TSD tree.

grandmaster ho sik pak is a fantastic martial artist as well as humble also.  i had the honor of sparring with him at our last tournament.... ever though he beat me bigtime it was a honor.


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## RCastillo (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shinzu _
> *actually my instructors trained with chun sik kim also.  they are all good friends.  my association was once part of the WTSD fed, but broke to start their own with no hard feelings.
> 
> the head master instructor at my school trained and tested in front of hwang kee.  i would not say we are very different, we are just another branch on the TSD tree.
> ...



Thanks for the clarification!:asian:


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## Shinzu (Sep 29, 2003)

you are welcome


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## Makalakumu (Nov 30, 2003)

There is good TKD and bad TKD.  In my opinion TKD associated with the MDK is the good stuff.  Not to say that the others aren't good, though.  I would say that overall, I have seen more bad TKD then good and the bad FAR outweighs the bad in TSD.  Sheesh - I'm not trying to bash anyone - I think the sport aspect has created this.  For instance, I trained for 2-4 hours a day everyday and it took me 5 years to get my cho dan in TSD.

upnorthkyosa


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