# People favor TKD, not Kenpo



## RCastillo (Apr 13, 2002)

Where I live, TKD thrives, but Kenpo, and other arts do not. Why is TKD so popular?

Now, I have been in TKD for many years, and have enjoyed immensely, plus I feel it helped me tremendously to pick up Kenpo better, but have found Kenpo to be more practical for pure self defense which address more than TKD ever could.

Yet, when I talk to people about the arts, they go for TKD first. What amazes me even more, is when I talk to others about Ed Parker, they know nothing of him. I am at a loss to understand.

Of course, where I live, South Texas is weird anyway. I understand Kenpo does better elsewhere. 

Your take on this? 

Respects to you!:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Apr 13, 2002)

In the 80's TKD exploded on the scene all over North America and is well know because of its Olympic exposure.  As a Kenpo practioner it is your responsibility to educate people on the practicality and benefits of kenpo.  Kenpo has not had the worldwide exposure TKD did.  If presented properly you will have more people seeing the light.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 13, 2002)

Back in the late 60's and 70's tkd ruled texas.
Many good competitors came out of Texas and they where fighters in those days.  Not saying there not today just don't here about them on a national level as much today.


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## arnisador (Apr 13, 2002)

Effective marketing, kid-friendliness, sport aspect, and frequent and rapid belt promotion.

The local TKD school has infinitely more students than the JKD school at which I study--but surely isn't giving the students the same self-defense knowledge that many are presumably, or putatively, there for. Why? It's harder, it's not belt- or sport-oriented, it isn't marketed as aggressively, and it isn't as welcoming and inviting for kids and their parents due to its emphasis on realistic training.


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## Klondike93 (Apr 13, 2002)

TKD is much easier for people to pick up and understand. Kenpo is much more time consuming and more details to understand.
Advancement comes easier for the TKD practioner than the kenpo one.

Because of this I don't really get how kenpo schools even stay in buisness very long. It's got to be hard to keep people interested in it when your probably not going to get your black belt before 5 years. In TKD you'd probably get it in 2 1/2 to 3 years.

I did TKD for a long time and have now gone over to kenpo and I really enjoy it. 

IMHO

:asian:


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## Kirk (Apr 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *The local TKD school has infinitely more students than the JKD school at which I study--but surely isn't giving the students the same self-defense knowledge that many are presumably, or putatively, there for. Why? It's harder, it's not belt- or sport-oriented, it isn't marketed as aggressively, and it isn't as welcoming and inviting for kids and their parents due to its emphasis on realistic training. *



Maybe there's a reason against this, but if I were a teacher of
JKD, I'd soooo use Bruce in my marketing!


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## Kirk (Apr 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *Where I live, TKD thrives, but Kenpo, and other arts do not. Why is TKD so popular?
> 
> ...



Being from your neck of the woods sir, I have a somewhat 
unique comment.  Corpus is hugely tourist based.  I know a ton
of people from out there, that now live here just to get a job
with a decent salary.  I've been told that most out there that
have money are senior citizens.  Maybe in addition to the over
appeal to TKD in your area (which doesn't surprise me), that this 
is an additional problem?  There's too many TKD schools to count
where I live, but there's 3 kenpo schools doing just fine.  LOTS
of members.  (NOTE .. there's no Tracy schools here).


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## RCastillo (Apr 14, 2002)

No surprises there! In a city of almost a million, there's room for all, and then some.

You're right about this area, it's a tourist area, and others have tried sports here on different levels, with little, or no success. Heck, even the one AKKI school went under in due time.

I just can't beat the Koreans and their kiddie  student population.


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## Kirk (Apr 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *No surprises there! In a city of almost a million, there's room for all, and then some.
> 
> ...




Well, since you're also knowledgeable in TKD, teach TKD to kids,
to get the cash, and Kenpo to the adults?


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## RCastillo (Apr 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I forgot to add, they're are remnants of Tracy schools there(2 0f them). Kids, no, I'm a school teacher (and former coach ) for 21 years. I don't need mommy/daddy on me. I have enough of that already, along with some Principals that have no guts.


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## Kirk (Apr 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> I forgot to add, they're are remnants of Tracy schools there(2 0f them). Kids, no, I'm a school teacher (and former coach ) for 21 years. I don't need mommy/daddy on me. I have enough of that already, along with some Principals that have no guts. *



:rofl: :rofl:   Can't fault you there!


What about cardio kickboxing?


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## RCastillo (Apr 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Whoa! No, my next, and final art is Tai Chi. Besides, I can't handle all those babes dancing around, but Gou Ronin could!


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## Rob_Broad (Apr 14, 2002)

Richardo

I hate to say it, but ot be even moderately successful in a TKD rich environment you have to teach children.  I know the reluctance of teaching children, and I know how daunting it can be.  But I will say it now Kenpo techniques are not for children.  Teach the forms and sets, sparring, basics and eanything else you want, but the techniques can lead to many problems.  

When I say teach children i do not mean babysit them, I mean teach tnem and have their parents know exactly what to expect.  I tell parents their job ot to drive their kids to and from class, make sure they have ht kids their on time, and not to speak to the child during class.  The parents have to know you are in complete control of the training if they have a problem with it, the door swings out.  Anytime you would like some info about creating a program for children email me, I will give you a free copy of an ebook on instructing children in the martial arts.


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## RCastillo (Apr 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *Richardo
> 
> ...



I agree with you totally.Thanks for your help, Sir! It is greatly appreciated.:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Apr 14, 2002)

I would keep plugging away at the Kenpo material, in my opinion it is far better than TKD any day of the week and twice on Tuesday. 

email me at Rob_Broad@yahoo.com and I'll send you the copy of the ebook, as long the your email account isn't a hotmail acct the file is too big for hotmail


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## Chiduce (Apr 14, 2002)

TKD is just more popular and has olympic credentials! When i talk to people about kenpo, jeff speakman, or master Parker! They have never heard of any of them or Kenpo. Sincerely, in Humility; Chiduce!


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## Zoran (Apr 14, 2002)

I am not a school owner my self, but my instructor says he is very happy with all the TKD and "Olympic Karate" schools in his area. He gets about 10-15 new students a year from those schools. Actually, he even said he would love it if one opened next door to him.  

Also, he's one of those instructors that still interviews prospective new students. IF they don't seem to "fit" into Kenpo, he refers them to the nearest TKD school.:EG:


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## GouRonin (Apr 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Whoa! No, my next, and final art is Tai Chi. Besides, I can't handle all those babes dancing around, but Gou Ronin could!*



It's a gift. I must use it wisely.

As far as the whole TKD thing. I would think that the real reason it is so hugely popular is because a lot of people in your town like @n@l sex. Being bent over and ska-rooed to learn a martial art would be hugely popular then.

:rofl:


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## vincefuess (Apr 15, 2002)

Just about every martial artist I know started in TKD, including myself.  It's funny how most every experienced student who walks through the door of the Kenpo school is coming from TKD, looking for more tools.  I bet you don't see many Kenpoists walking into TKD schools for that reason...


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 15, 2002)

Well kiddies, my ex, a greenbelt in AKK, would love to take TKD for her sparring skills. Unforutanly money was an issue and she couldn't, but if you want flash, go TKD! And it not only feels good, it looks good when you take someones head off with a jump spinning hook kick. But I must state that she was looking for the _sport_ application of AKK, not the self defense.


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## GouRonin (Apr 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> *Just about every martial artist I know started in TKD*



I started in boxing. Me no likey kicky-kicky.


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## tonbo (Apr 16, 2002)

I also didn't start off in TKD, nor has anyone that I have trained with.  Yeah, it's pretty, and there is some good sport aspect there.  However, I can't think of another art that is more joked about in terms of fast promotion (belt rank, not marketing).  

A few years back, I did a survey and contacted a number of schools around, asking about time length from white to black belts (or from beginner to advanced, if they didn't use belts).  Most of the responses said it would take about 4-6 years, and most were honestly on the higher end of the spectrum (5+ years).  This was based on at least two times per week, about an hour class each time, and with regular training on your own.  Amazingly, most of the TKD schools were saying it would be 2-3 years to black.  I gotta shake my head at that.

Of course, this is the *American* version of TKD. I have heard that the actual *Korean* version is much better and much more effective.  Any truth to that?

Peace--


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## Chiduce (Apr 16, 2002)

Tonbo, i see it this way. TKD is a leg man martial art. The emphasis is on meditation, stretching, and kicking. If a say, 3rd brown belt can full split in a static stretch and stay in that stretch for at least 10 minutes in meditation, prayer, and humility; then he/she is half the way there too the next ranking! So, i do feel that the ranking structure in TKD is based on the individual practitioner's abilities. There are stories of those whom studied very hard for 12 to 15 month's and received their Black Belts. From , this analogy i get the point that the ranking is there for the individual which seeks it through hard work, prayer and meditation. I do not know the requirements for other systems stretching. Yet i take it that a 3rd brown would at least be able to stay in a full static split for 3-5 minutes in another martial art. This is not to say that striking does not play an important role in the promotion process, yet the pain, sweat, and tears are in the art within the martial art; stretching! So, the TKD practitioner's ability to improve within the art itself, i would say relies heavily on the stretching aspect. The stretch provides success in kicking, improvement in kicking motion abilities and the humility of enduring continuous pain in the learning process of progression within the art. To me the promotions make sense if the practitioner can obtain the skill levels of motion required for the that rank regardless of the time it take's to obtain such levels of proficiency. Ami Tou Fou! :asian: Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Zoran (Apr 16, 2002)

I'm sure everybody here knows that there are exceptions to the rule. There are some with either a high degree of natural ability or extensive MA experience that would allow them to earn their Black Belt in record time. As a general norm, it should take 4+ years to achieve a Black Belt rank. McDojo schools give out Black Belts for the money period. Tonbo's point is simple, 2-3 years to Black Belt is ridiculous as an average.


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## brianhunter (Apr 16, 2002)

when 15-16 year olds are going up and asking "what degree are you" and comparing it to their own dan you need to be worried


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## Klondike93 (Apr 16, 2002)

If a person already has a black belt in another style, how long do you think it should take to reach first black in american kenpo?

:asian:


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## Kirk (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *If a person already has a black belt in another style, how long do you think it should take to reach first black in american kenpo?
> 
> :asian: *



In my school, you can do it in 3 years, 8 months ... not a single
soul has done it in under 5, since the school started.


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## Zoran (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *If a person already has a black belt in another style, how long do you think it should take to reach first black in american kenpo?
> 
> :asian: *



I guess that would depend on the person and what style they come from. If you come from a style very different from Kenpo, you may have to go through an un-learning process. If you come from a similar style, Kenpo off-shoot for example, you may be able to assimulate the EPAK material much faster. Maybe cut the time in half, maybe not.


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## Chiduce (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *I'm sure everybody here knows that there are exceptions to the rule. There are some with either a high degree of natural ability or extensive MA experience that would allow them to earn their Black Belt in record time. As a general norm, it should take 4+ years to achieve a Black Belt rank. McDojo schools give out Black Belts for the money period. Tonbo's point is simple, 2-3 years to Black Belt is ridiculous as an average. *


 Ok zoran, i have a good one for you. My sifu is a grand champion on the tournament seen. He also, teaches anyone whom would have a great desire to learn. He is currently teaching a handicapped student and has another up and coming student. His teacher is a master in several different arts as well as my sifu. Now, the up and coming student is fighting tournaments and winning in his division. My sifu says that within one year his student will be able to beat 2nd and 3rd degree black belts in fighting on the mat and in the streets. Now, this guy is good and young and very well versed in the skill level he is learning. Is the sifu right or wrong? Is my sifu's school a mcdojo for letting this guy within a year compete in the upper black belt ranks? Since the school my teacher trained did not give out promotion belt ranks, just the title of disciple, he is a disciple of his teacher; yet he fights in the 6th and 7th Dan categories and performs weapons forms in the same category! The point i'am making here is that the teacher and my teacher is well known and respected on the tournament fighting, and weapons forms seen. The sifu wins and is respected as that rank in which he won in competition. He teaches for no money, yet recieves money for winning in competition. He is an old school instructor and  still takes on all challengers outside of the mat.  The belt means nothing, only the knowledge of the practical applications and execution of the higher levels of defensive skill have meaning.  To paraphrase Eagle Claw Master Lilly Lau; It is not the school which determines your proficiency within the art, but the Teacher from which you learned the proficiency! Though everyone has the right to voice their views. So, how do you assess this one? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Zoran (Apr 17, 2002)

Chudice,

Tournaments are tournaments. Carrying the rank of Black Belt means more than being able to win in a fight or tournament. It means that you have gained a level of understanding, as well as physical skill, in your system. The rank system is not designed to tell someone I can kick their @ss. It's their, in theory, to show what point I am in my MA journey for that system. Some people can learn all the material in a system ,for Black Belt, in a very short period of time. As well as having superior athletic ability that could make them great fighters quickly. Are they Black Belts? I say no. The criteria that is missing is the time needed to absorb and have understanding of the "why", not just the "how".

Now as far as your instructor bumping a persons rank for a tournament, I have no problem with that. He's a teen Green Belt good enough to fight in the adult BB division. Slap a Black Belt on him and cut him loose.  My instructor has done something similar in the past. We call them "field promotions". Of course, you went back to your regular rank after the competition.

It would be even more fun to put that Green Belt back on him before he went up to get his trophy. I would love to see the faces. :EG:


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## Blindside (Apr 17, 2002)

Chiduce posted:
"Since the school my teacher trained did not give out promotion belt ranks, just the title of disciple, he is a disciple of his teacher; yet he fights in the 6th and 7th Dan categories and performs weapons forms in the same category!" 

I don't think I've ever heard of this, just how big a division are these at these tournaments (the 6th and 7th Dan categories)?  

Maybe I run on a pretty small tournament scene, but by these rankings most practitioners are retired from competition.  What tournament circuit is this?

Lamont


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## vincefuess (Apr 17, 2002)

I can usually follow your posts, and agree much of the time- but I can't make heads nor tails of the last one.  Can you clarify?

You know as well as anyone that the rank of black belt symbolizes far more than fighting ability.   I am a 1st degree black, and I know 4th degree blacks I could clobber (in my own system even).  They didn't get their rank because they could whip someone's butt- they got it for their contributions to the art, their level of experience, their expertise, and their depth.

There are people out in the street who have never formally trained a day in their life who beat the crap outta just about anybody, regardless of style or rank.  I may not want to fight them, but that doesn't mean I respect them.

I have been involved in self-defense training, AND tournament training for many years.  There are no "dan divisions" at the black belt level for any tournament I ever saw.  I beat out a 5th degree black in Kenpo forms one time, and I was a FRESH 1st degree (like by about a month).  My form was just better than his that day- it darn sure doesn't mean I deserve his rank!  Nor does it suggest he doesn't.  It was just a good day with my best form.

I guess it all depends on how you define "black belt".


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## Chiduce (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> 
> *I can usually follow your posts, and agree much of the time- but I can't make heads nor tails of the last one.  Can you clarify?
> 
> ...


 I'am speaking of the senior's category! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Zoran (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> * I'am speaking of the senior's category! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce! *



Seniors category has to do with the age of the practitioner.


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## Chiduce (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> 
> *I can usually follow your posts, and agree much of the time- but I can't make heads nor tails of the last one.  Can you clarify?
> 
> ...


 Vincefuess; the 4th Dan especially in American Kenpo is suppose to show the gap within skill levels in fighting ( and also kata preformance) between the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd degrees. The 4th degree is the chief instructor, which is suppose to be better in technique exectutio as well as kata and specifically, figthing. So, maybe 3rd Dan you could clobber, but not 4th in you own system. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Chiduce (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *
> 
> Seniors category has to do with the age of the practitioner. *


 Yes it does because most practitioners with that type of ranking  are 40 or over. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Klondike93 (Apr 17, 2002)

But your not doggin us over 40 guys, are ya?





:asian:


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## Chiduce (Apr 17, 2002)

By the way vince, since i'am not an American Kenpo practitioner, i will have to ask you if there are 4th Dans in your system whom are either older in age and are noted for there contribution or those whom are just no good at fighting. I do not mean to cause a problem because of this statement! I figured that you just may have made a printiong error in your response! Nor i'am i a tournament fighter, i'am merely explaining what was told to me by my sifu! Sincerely, in Humility; Chiduce!


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## Blindside (Apr 17, 2002)

Chiduce Posted:
"Yes it does because most practitioners with that type of ranking are 40 or over. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!"

I'm afraid you are mistaken.  A 40 year old 1st degree black belt who just got his belt would also compete in the Seniors or "Masters" black-belt division.  There is no such animal as division for 6th and up Dan rankings in any tournament that I am aware of.  Above 1st degree black the split is usually by age or weight or both, not by Dan ranking.

Lamont


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## Chiduce (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> 
> *Chiduce Posted:
> "Yes it does because most practitioners with that type of ranking are 40 or over. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!"
> ...


 Homs, you twisted what i said a little. my post after or the post you are refering to did not say the the 1st Degree would be 40 years old. It said that the student was young. The kids actual age is 21 so in a year he would be 22 and competing in the black belt division. Now my sifu, whom is over 40 competes in the Senior or Master's division. My last post or the one before yours explained the tournament understanding that i have. So, i hope this statement clears things up a little for you. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 19, 2002)

are making a lot of assumptions that just are not reality.  First off....... there is no definition of exactly what anyone turns out like at ANY rank!
It is only as good as the person who promoted you and your skill level....  To defeat a fifth degree in a tournament is no big deal...... i.e... what if the guy was a fifth and is just starting back after an injury or a long layoff in life and is getting back in shape and knocking off some rust.  To defeat this guy would be no big thing for A) a person that was a top competitor and has kept his hand warm and B) if the fifth in question rarely participated in tournaments and was matched with a another that has been out of touch "so to speak", but was an avid competitor he still could lose handily.  So you have soooooooo many variables that it almost doesn't warrant discussion unless you set up some specific.  

In some of the newer tournaments, they are adding some "senior divisions" for over 50 and 60!!  But again these are very subjective and no conclusions can be drawn from the discussion of them without fair playing grounds.......

Come on guys...... be real.

 :asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Apr 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *are making a lot of assumptions that just are not reality.  First off....... there is no definition of exactly what anyone turns out like at ANY rank!
> It is only as good as the person who promoted you and your skill level....  To defeat a fifth degree in a tournament is no big deal...... i.e... what if the guy was a fifth and is just starting back after an injury or a long layoff in life and is getting back in shape and knocking off some rust.  To defeat this guy would be no big thing for A) a person that was a top competitor and has kept his hand warm and B) if the fifth in question rarely participated in tournaments and was matched with a another that has been out of touch "so to speak", but was an avid competitor he still could lose handily.  So you have soooooooo many variables that it almost doesn't warrant discussion unless you set up some specific.
> ...




Bravo!!!


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 19, 2002)




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## RCastillo (Apr 19, 2002)

Ok Mr. Conatser, you can quit talking about us old guys!:soapbox:


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 19, 2002)

You're just a young whippersnapper!!


:asian:


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## Seig (Apr 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *I also didn't start off in TKD, nor has anyone that I have trained with.  Yeah, it's pretty, and there is some good sport aspect there.  However, I can't think of another art that is more joked about in terms of fast promotion (belt rank, not marketing).
> 
> ...



I studied for 14 years under a TKD master that was ranked in Korea.  When I moved to Florida and went to the McDojang around the corner, I cleared the floor......I went over to Kenpo....When someone asks how long to black belt, I tell them, a minimum of three years, if they come to class every night.  I run 5 nights a week


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 21, 2002)

Not all studios are  created equal!

:asian:


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## Nightingale (Apr 25, 2002)

with regards to the amount of time it takes to get a black belt...

I forget who said this, but when asked how long it took for "the average person" to get a black belt in kenpo, a teacher replied "Average people don't get black belts."

I took TKD for two years, on a break from kenpo (no kenpo school near me at the time).  I did enjoy it, but figured out real quick that I was a kenpo blue belt at the time and could give the TKD black belts (in that school) a run for their money in self defense. They seemed much more focused on the "look" of things and doing the fancy movie star kicks rather than defending themselves... I'm sorry, but if someone attacks me in the street, I'm not going to do a jumping spinning hooking heel kick.  I'm going to sidekick the bastard's knee (or do something else simple and fast that causes a lot of damage) and get the heck out of there. 

I don't have my black belt yet, but in my opinion, a black belt needs to be able to defend themselves.  I cringe when I see people wearing TKD black belts who can do amazing kicks but don't know how to block a straight thrust punch or a backknuckle.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 25, 2002)

:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Apr 25, 2002)

That's why people talk down to TKD so much. Too many black belts couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag when in a self defense stiuation.  One reason why I wanted to take up kenpo when I got my BB in TKD.




:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 25, 2002)

Most have little to no "general knowledge" on the martial arts as well.  I said most.......

:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Apr 25, 2002)

I look at the TKD phenomon sort of like getting married and you go get your starter home.  It is good enough to get you started in life, but it isn't too long before you realize that you were looking for more.

Tkd is a good starter art, a good sport but other than that the TKD curriculum is lacking.  Many people add to it to make it better, and by doing so they are no longer doing the true TKD curriculum.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 25, 2002)

Why start with bad habbits?

Why is there always time  to do it over,  when there is  never time to do it right?  

food for thought.....

lol


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## Klondike93 (Apr 25, 2002)

In my case I grew up idolizing Bruce Lee and later Bill Wallace so I wanted to be able to kick like them and stumbled on TKD.

After realizing I didn't know how to use my hands very well, I moved on to kenpo. I knew from watching them at tournaments they liked to work inside alot.


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 26, 2002)

that is famous for kung fu?
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Bruce Lopez

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## RCastillo (Apr 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *that is famous for kung fu?
> .
> ...







Not Mexico, It's TEXAS!

Ricardo "Force Field" Castillo, me, that's who!]:2pistols:


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## Ronin (May 2, 2002)

You know Mr. C its funny I remember a few kenpo students who were green belts and they walked into a korean school when they were away at college and were instantly promoted to black belt without any questions asked.  I wont ever forget the statement you said to me that if I wanted a black belt I should go to a "Partial-Art" school.   And if I wanted to be a great  Martial artist I should study Kenpo.  Not That all korean styles are bad but just a funny story I remembered..


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## Klondike93 (May 2, 2002)

Stories like that make me embarassed to be a black belt in TKD.
It's also another reason I moved on to kenpo and like it much more. TKD was fun for kicking and all, but kenpo is so much more.


:asian:


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## Sigung86 (May 3, 2002)

Many years ago, almost back before Dennis was born, I took a black in Tae Kwan Do (Tang Soo Do, specifically).  Did it in one year.  Had classes five nights a week, and learned from a South Korean Army Sergeant.  The first self Defense technique I learned was, I found out later, in Kenpo, Whirling Thorn.  We spent a lot of time going over weapon defense, up to and including rifles with bayonets affixed.

TKD has changed so much over the years that it is hardly recognizable any longer.  They made the choice to become a Martial Sport.  One of the large insurance companies gives a discount to people who are doing TKD, which they classify as a Martial Sport.  many TKD schools have to bring in association consultants (at a high cost, naturally) to teach self defense.

The driving force was purely, and simply, money.  Pick up TKD, make it palatable, clean up it's act, make it respectable to say, "Hey!  I'm a TKD Black Belt"!  Put lots of high price items in there like $25 patches, exhorbitant belt testing fees, specific vendor only, acceptable uniforms and sparring gear.  Hoorah the students, and make them feel special.  Oila!  McDojo!  Lot's of money for the instructors ... Lots of feel good for the students!  Everyone is happy.

I recall a story about ten years ago of a female Black Belt TKD instructor, in California, who was assaulted and strangled to death.  That, in and of itself was pretty sad.  To add insult to injury, it was her instructor who did the strangling.  Go figure... 

Don't mind me.  Just an old guy ruminating....

Take care,

Dan


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## Rob_Broad (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



To any of the beginners out there reading this thread, you can often learn a lot from thread like the one I partially quoted.  I suggest people go back and read the original post again and see what there is to learn. I know I found a lot of info in it.


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## GouRonin (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Many years ago, almost back before Dennis was born*



Was that when Dinosaurs roamed the earth?


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## Goldendragon7 (May 3, 2002)

We resemble those remarks!
:rofl:


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## Klondike93 (May 3, 2002)

> Was that when Dinosaurs roamed the earth?



That would explain how they became extinct, they were eaten :rofl: :rofl: 


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 3, 2002)

LOL :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: If you knew Dan or I .......:rofl: LOL you'd know that we are the ones eaten!  :rofl:


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## Sigung86 (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *LOL :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: If you knew Dan or I .......:rofl: LOL you'd know that we are the ones eaten!  :rofl: *



Dennis!!!!  I'll see  your :rofl:  and raise you :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Dan


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## Goldendragon7 (May 3, 2002)

As long as you include a burger with fries....:rofl: :shrug: :rofl: :shrug: :rofl: :shrug:


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## Klondike93 (May 3, 2002)

It's allways something about food with you guys, you get that from Mr. Parker too?

:asian:


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## GouRonin (May 3, 2002)

Big D got that gut on his own. I've eaten chicken wings with him and you don't get your hands near his mouth.
:iws:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 3, 2002)

I dont eat chicken wings!!!

I'm gonna get you............. but still dont get your fingers near my mouth!

:argue:


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## GouRonin (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I'm gonna get you.............*



I can feel the love on this discussion board right now...


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## Klondike93 (May 3, 2002)

:ladysman: :cheers: 


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 3, 2002)

with the chicks....!!!


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## GouRonin (May 3, 2002)

Ricardo's brownies are not meant to be eated while you operate heavy machinery or surf the net.
 
Heh, you're a lady legend in your own mind.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 4, 2002)

I did score once back in the 70's without you......


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## Seig (May 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I did score once back in the 70's without you......
> *


That was probably before he was born


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## Goldendragon7 (May 4, 2002)

No doubt!


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## Seig (May 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *It's allways something about food with you guys, you get that from Mr. Parker too?
> 
> :asian: *


Reminds me of the time about 4 or 5 years ago....
It was almost Christmas, which means lighting up the palm trees in Florida, and I was intentionally late for class one evening.  I walked into the dojo and bowed in, waiting for GM ALford to blast me for being late.  He was all set to let me have it, a senior BB, blah blah...when he looked at my feet.  Instead of approved Karate shoes or barefoot, I was wearing big green fuzzy Grinch slippers.  He took one look and said "Only you!!!! That's it, class dismissed, let's go get Ice Cream!"
We did, he treated everyone, except me, i had to pay for his and mine!


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## Sigung86 (May 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> That was probably before he was born *



Hmmmm....

Dennis scored once in the seventies ... Before Gou was born...
Gou's sense of humor is seriously similar to Dennis' ... Hmmmm ...

Hmmmm ....

NAAAHHHH!!!  I'd hate to start a rumor!
:erg: :boing2: :erg: :idea: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Dan "I too have managed a time or two without Gou" Farmer
:asian:


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## Klondike93 (May 4, 2002)

Are we to imply that Gou is really GD's long lost.......Son, brother, Sister!! Your thoughts betray you.

Nah, I didn't think so, just wondering out loud. :shrug: 


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 4, 2002)

I would never let him move to Canada!  The Meercats alone would be after him.


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## cdhall (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *...
> 
> It would be even more fun to put that Green Belt back on him before he went up to get his trophy. I would love to see the faces. :EG: *



This did happen at our school twice.  We have a guy who used to box who is a Yellow Belt in very good condition and twice he has gone to Houston to fight in some open/continuous fighting match where the competitors don't wear their belt.

Both times he took 1st place and I'm sure it was very amusing when he lined back up wearing his Gi and Yellow Belt next to the Black Belts he just trounced in the ring.

I don't feel to bad when he beats me now that I know more of his story.


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## vincefuess (Jun 6, 2002)

I have come into contact with more than my share of excellent fighters who I happen to outrank.  Look at Gou- with the boxing experience he had, he was probably a better scrapper than most of his MA instructors.

It depends on the student- if they have something to prove then there is nothing you can give them.  But oif they are truly there to lean something new, it is no problem.  My black belt does not mean I can kick your ***, it is merely symbolic that I have learned certain information and can perform it to a required degree.  I have met many lower belts who could likely hand my butt to me in a real conflict- due to age, physical ability, ability to take abuse, etc.  That should noit be the criteria when you step in a school- it should be looking for what they may lack.  I make more money than most of my college professors combined- based in part on what they taught me.  Their success (or lack thereof) is no gauge of me, but their impact upon me is immeasurable.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 6, 2002)

A big head.......


:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 6, 2002)

Too Late:rofl:


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## GouRonin (Jun 6, 2002)

I have met Dennis' kids. They are far too smart to actually be related to me. They're both honour roll kids in school and good kids to boot.

If I was Dennis' kid, I'd have to be adopted!


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## RCastillo (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I have met Dennis' kids. They are far too smart to actually be related to me. They're both honour roll kids in school and good kids to boot.
> 
> If I was Dennis' kid, I'd have to be adopted! *



I'll adopt you! I always wanted a summer home in Canada!


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> I'll adopt you! I always wanted a summer home in Canada! *




There are better ways to get a Canadian summer home.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> I'll adopt you! *



You can live in the treehouse behind the boys......:rofl:


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## Seig (Jun 7, 2002)

the firing slots?  You all still get raided my the Indians? OOPs, not politically correct.  Are you still being challenged by the local Native American Populace?


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## RCastillo (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> You can live in the treehouse behind the boys......:rofl: *



Throw in some "Central Air", and you got a deal!


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## Seig (Jun 7, 2002)

Does that place have room service?   How about cable? No?  Satellite then?  Oh and what about a High Speed Internet connection?


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## RCastillo (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Does that place have room service?   How about cable? No?  Satellite then?  Oh and what about a High Speed Internet connection? *



It does have a pool, and the main house is open all hours! Lots of snacks, too!


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## Seig (Jun 7, 2002)

Good deal!  How's the restraunt?


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## RCastillo (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Good deal!  How's the restraunt? *



Junk Food galore!:boing2:


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## Seig (Jun 7, 2002)

Sounds Great!


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## Nightingale (Jun 7, 2002)

damn, GD, that treehouse looks bigger than my whole apartment!


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)

Spans 3 Trees... Tarzan wouldn't complain, to the Swiss Family however, it would only be a condo.

:rofl:


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## tonbo (Jun 7, 2002)

Now THAT is a treehouse!!

Did you need to get a permit to build that, or what?  You gonna rent that thing out when the kids move away from home?

Oh, and I noticed that the kids were on scooters.....does the treehouse have a garage, too?

Nice job, though.....forgive me if I don't show that picture to my own kids....they wouldn't ever go back to the puny fort that sits on my property.....

Peace--


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)

The new Jaccuzzi!


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## Klondike93 (Jun 7, 2002)

Man, first a tree house, now a jaccuzzi!! 

I'm jealous  


:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 7, 2002)

Mr. C,
Did I mention I have put myself up for adoption?


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)

Individuals that can do yardwork and housework make sense to me.  Why not pass on all the diapers and get right to the side work!  LOL

:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *The new Jaccuzzi! *



BAT RASTARD!!!


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## tunetigress (Jun 7, 2002)

Nice spa GD!  Is that yours or didja cut that pic outa the catalogue???  :rofl:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)

just the catalogue pic......mine is by the pool and is emerald green with redwood sides and gazabo.....:asian:


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## Rainman (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Spans 3 Trees... Tarzan wouldn't complain, to the Swiss Family however, it would only be a condo.
> 
> :rofl: *




I thought you said the treehouse wasn't yours?!  Just what are you trying to hide from me anyways?  I HAVE A PLACE TO LIVE... REALLY.:boing2: :boing2: 


 :asian:


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## islandtime (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> 
> *Back in the late 60's and 70's tkd ruled texas.
> Many good competitors came out of Texas and they where fighters in those days.  Not saying there not today just don't here about them on a national level as much today. *


......................................................................................
Let me add not only did they rule Texas but they ruled the whole Southeast US. 
Allan Steen and his "Texas Blood and Guts" TKD was unstoppable on the tournament circuit.
I fought with and against too many of them to count .I was more likely to get disqualified instead of loosing a match. I didn't learn too many kata or weapons forms but I did learn how to fight

That legacy is mostly dead but the Souths' love of TKD is still alive in the corner McDojo.

I don't have anything but respect for TKD but I have no respect for the McDojo and their 6 year old Black Belts



Gene Gabel:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 8, 2002)

Steen, Kurban, Gotcher, Mullins, Havanas, Robles, Minshew, SantaMaria, Alvarado, and milliions more were much trouble at one time...........   But nothing like the guys today.

:asian:


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## islandtime (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Steen, Kurban, Gotcher, Mullins, Havanas, Robles, Minshew, SantaMaria, Alvarado, and milliions more were much trouble at one time...........   But nothing like the guys today.
> 
> :asian: *


.......................................................................................
I would like to add "Big Jim, and Jenice Miller" a couple of Alan Steens black belts that were the BADDEST married couple in the South.(and then some)

I studied under them in New Orleans and they were awesome..



Gene Gabel:asian:


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## vincefuess (Jun 8, 2002)

I must beg to differ with you Golden Dragon (for the first time I might add) on at least one of the names in your list- Demetrius "The Golden Greek" Havanas.  This guy was a stellar fighter, a top shape athlete, and a competitor destined for the top.  To discount his ability in being not up to par with todays fighters is almost exactly like saying that Benny Urquidez' skills are not on par with fighters today, as I view the two as very similar in talent and skill, and had not Havanas been killed in the plane crash he would have likely been every bit as successful as Urquidez.

As for some of our other "Texas heroes"- Allen Steen, Skipper Mullins, Pat Burleson, etc...  they were very much just very tough scrappers.  These guys made for in "blood and guts" hat they may have lacked in technical skill- it WAS a different time and these were "different" people even in that time.

I watched many of these guys train, albeit as a youngster, but I have vivid memories of head kicks connecting and bringing blood, broken toes, fingers, and knuckles.  Every time they sparred, someone got bloodied up- everybody got beat up.  While these guys may not have had the technical skills of todays fighters, they darn sure had the spirit and the will, and the ability to deal as well as take serious punishment.

Let's not forget that Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, and Joe Lewis are all part of that same era and fought these same matches.

I am happy and proud to have met ome of these guys and seen them in action, even though it was at a time when I was too young to appreciate it.  I appreciate it now.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by islandtime _*
> .......................................................................................
> I would like to add "Big Jim, and Jenice Miller" a couple of Alan Steens black belts that were the BADDEST married couple in the South.(and then some) I studied under them in New Orleans and they were awesome..Gene Gabel:asian: *



Yes, I agree...... like I said.... millions more that I forgot!! not intestinally.....  so many greats to remember out of that state and era!

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> *I must beg to differ with you Golden Dragon (for the first time I might add) on at least one of the names in your list- Demetrius "The Golden Greek" Havanas.  This guy was a stellar fighter, a top shape athlete, and a competitor destined for the top.  To discount his ability in being not up to par with todays fighters is almost exactly like saying that Benny Urquidez' skills are not on par with fighters today, as I view the two as very similar in talent and skill, and had not Havanas been killed in the plane crash he would have likely been every bit as successful as Urquidez.*




VINCE VINCE VINCE :hammer: .............. WHOAAAAAAAAAA PARDNER.....

You don't need to differ...........  I was NOT saying that DH was a slacker....... but rather exactly as you have explained......  I apologize if you thought otherwise...... Man he was one of my  hero's!!  A fighter..... no Gladiator Royal....... he just loved to fight anyone anywhere anytime........ lol:boxing: 
and his student continued the trend - Raymond McCallum!!

:asian:


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