# Sip Soo - Ten Hands



## chodanbodacious

I know that the Sip Soo form is also known as the ten hands form.  Can anyone tell me why?


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## Makalakumu

Welcome to Martial Talk.  :asian: 

I've heard that sip soo was a bear form.  I don't know that one yet, though...


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## mjd

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Welcome to Martial Talk. :asian:
> 
> I've heard that sip soo was a bear form. I don't know that one yet, though...


 
Sip translates to TEN or in some circles MANY, Soo translates to HANDS or in some circles DEFENSE.

The most widely used translation is Ten hands, it has also been translated as many hands or many defenses.

Also, I have been told the pattern represents the number 10, not sure on that one.

If you have been taught Sip Soo Hyung, you will notice very powerful and broad attacks with the hands and feet, this is symbolic to the bear striking with its paws and claws.


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## EmperorOfKentukki

Ship Soo indeed is Sino-Korean for 'Ten Hands'.   The form comes to TSD via Karate from Japan via Tote of Okinawa via the martial arts of Southern China.  Most likely, the form is derived from Shaolin Tiger/Crane which was popularized by the _'Ten Tigers of Kwantung' _(considered to be the ten best martial artists in Kwantung Province), legendary figures in a resistence to the Ching Dynasty.  The art comes from the Southern Shaolin Temple and has survived today in variation among such southern Chinese Martial Arts as Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar.   Thus...there is a rich cultural history to 'Ship Soo'.  

The Emperor



> The Ten Tigers of Kwantung:
> Wong Yan Lum
> Tit Kiu Sam
> Jao Tai
> Wong Kay Ying
> Sou Hak Fu
> Tit Ji Chan
> Wong Ching Haw
> Sou Hut Yee
> Tam Jai Kwan
> Wong Fei Hung


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## Chizikunbo

Thank you for those insights master hancock...
--josh


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## JT_the_Ninja

For another perspective (the one given to me by my sa bom nim), in Korean culture, I'm given to believe, the number 10 is often seen as the number of completion. You can only be a 10th dan if you've died (completed your life), for example.

Sip soo is a form that is all hands - it's completely made up of hand techniques. It's a bit of a sideways explanation, but it works for me.

I too have heard it called the form of the bear. I guess the analogy is that bears (except Kuma from Tekken) only really fight with their hands. The series of palm strikes and double outside-inside blocks certainly looks like something a bear might be seen doing.


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## MBuzzy

I'd like to reenergize this thread - can someon give me their interpretations of the applications for the opening two movements to Sip Soo?


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## Chizikunbo

MBuzzy said:


> I'd like to reenergize this thread - can someon give me their interpretations of the applications for the opening two movements to Sip Soo?


Ill video tape some stuff for ya, but I need to translate it to digital cause I only have my VHS camcorder working...so "bare" with me hehehe


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## MBuzzy

Thank you!  That would be great!


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## Master K

mjd said:


> Sip translates to TEN or in some circles MANY, Soo translates to HANDS or in some circles DEFENSE.
> 
> The most widely used translation is Ten hands, it has also been translated as many hands or many defenses.
> 
> Also, I have been told the pattern represents the number 10, not sure on that one.
> 
> If you have been taught Sip Soo Hyung, you will notice very powerful and broad attacks with the hands and feet, this is symbolic to the bear striking with its paws and claws.



The Ship Soo pattern does represent the Chinese character for the number ten.  For those of you that have not seen the Chinese character for ten, it appears similar to a plus (+) sign or Christian cross depending on the calligraphy.

Thanks,
Patrick K.


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## mjd

Patrick K. said:


> The Ship Soo pattern does represent the Chinese character for the number ten. For those of you that have not seen the Chinese character for ten, it appears similar to a plus (+) sign or Christian cross depending on the calligraphy.
> 
> Thanks,
> Patrick K.


 
Thanks for confirming that, I will write that down, good info.


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## JT_the_Ninja

How does sip soo represent that character? 

The footwork pattern is oriented on a straight line. The only deviations from that are the knife-hand block to the side, right before the palm thrusts, and the low+mid blocks (like from palche so) near the end.

Just wondering.


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## mjd

At the last palm trust you are in right foot forward front stance, left hand on top, right below.

Horizontal part of the cross.
-Turn 270 degrees to left, to left forward fighting stance, left low block to front, right high inside outside block, (or back fist to rear)
- Rotate 180 degrees to right repeat same as above leading with right.

Back to center line
- turn 90 degree to left to high block, you know the rest.


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## JT_the_Ninja

mjd said:


> At the last palm trust you are in right foot forward front stance, left hand on top, right below.
> 
> Horizontal part of the cross.
> -Turn 270 degrees to left, to left forward fighting stance, left low block to front, right high inside outside block, (or back fist to rear)
> - Rotate 180 degrees to right repeat same as above leading with right.
> 
> Back to center line
> - turn 90 degree to left to high block, you know the rest.



I noted those moves in my previous post, if you'll notice. That's still not much of a cross-bar. The Chinese character looks like this: &#21313;

I'd expect more. But if that's what you want to see in the pattern, you're perfectly within your rights to do so.


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## mjd

Yep, thats it :shrug:


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## bluemtn

MBuzzy said:


> I'd like to reenergize this thread - can someon give me their interpretations of the applications for the opening two movements to Sip Soo?


 
Well, I'm not that far along in my training yet, and not in TSD... One, I have a book with the forms in it, and two-  you guys do quite a few of the forms that I do...  So, to answer your question from what I see interpereted-  the first 2 are done in slow- motion (do you do it that way?)... Someone has grabbed both your hands and you want to remain engaged-  right hand released, free to do an uppercut palm strike. 



Chizikunbo said:


> Ill video tape some stuff for ya, but I need to translate it to digital cause I only have my VHS camcorder working...so "bare" with me hehehe


 

I think that that would be interesting to see!


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## Chizikunbo

tkdgirl said:


> I think that that would be interesting to see!



Well I just need to digitize it, it will be up soon!!!


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## MBuzzy

tkdgirl said:


> Well, I'm not that far along in my training yet, and not in TSD... One, I have a book with the forms in it, and two- you guys do quite a few of the forms that I do... So, to answer your question from what I see interpereted- the first 2 are done in slow- motion (do you do it that way?)... Someone has grabbed both your hands and you want to remain engaged- right hand released, free to do an uppercut palm strike.


 
Yes, both of those moves are done in slow motion.  I wasn't able to get a good translation of what they were from my instructor.  What I can gather from his explanation is that you are pushing an opponent's hands and "getting energy."  Not quite sure what that means.

I think that your interpretation sounds pretty close.


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## JT_the_Ninja

tkdgirl said:


> Well, I'm not that far along in my training yet, and not in TSD... One, I have a book with the forms in it, and two-  you guys do quite a few of the forms that I do...  So, to answer your question from what I see interpereted-  the first 2 are done in slow- motion (do you do it that way?)... Someone has grabbed both your hands and you want to remain engaged-  right hand released, free to do an uppercut palm strike.



Yes, we do them in slow motion, though it's not so much slow as controlled. Hands and feet still move together. We also cross the top hand up by the neck. The interpretation given me is that of twisting a caught opponent's arm and breaking it. It's a bit hidden in the motion, but I can see it there, at least. There are, of course, many other things inside those motions, though, not the least of which is a block which pushes the opponent's fist upward, then wrapping the arms around the opponent's extended arm and stepping forward while locking the arm and snapping the elbow.


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## Master K

JT_the_Ninja said:


> I noted those moves in my previous post, if you'll notice. That's still not much of a cross-bar. The Chinese character looks like this: &#21313;
> 
> I'd expect more. But if that's what you want to see in the pattern, you're perfectly within your rights to do so.



JT,

As I noted, the chinese character can be written various ways depending on the calligraphy of the period.  Taking a character off Babelfish or some other translation software does not take the calligraphy of the period into account.  And that is a very important point as my instructor would say.  If you study the history of the chinese characters you will notice a fair amount of variation and some would say evolution of the characters.  One of the variations has a long vertical line and a much shorter horizontal line (cross-bar) that mimics the Ship Soo pattern almost identically.  I have some calligraphy depicting this.  If I have the time, I will see what I can do to post it for you.

Hopefully, this helped to clear things up for you.

Thanks,
Patrick K.


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## mjd

I have never heard a good clear definition of the first 2 movements, WOULD BE A CROWD PLEASER to get some insight.

The usual gathering energy, developing Ki, ect, I was told that back in the days, warroirs would prepare for battle by using breathing exercises along with slow and balance movement in a deep trans like state of mine was a method of mine and body control to eliminate pain and gain genater than normal strenght.

What can you say, sounds a little far fetch but what do I know.


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## JT_the_Ninja

Patrick: I still think it's a bit far-fetched, but if what you say is true, it's plausible. Just remember that TSD got it by way of Japan, though. 

mjd: read the post I made before this, about 3 posts up the page.


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## tsd

I have just started learning some Tai Chi - Yang Style.  There are many things that my Tai Chi Instructor has discussed that I can apply to Sip Soo.  I have found it enlightening and helpful.  This coincides with previous post dealing with the history of the Hyung.


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## Badaxel

I was taught that Sip Soo was a Bo staff form.  Mostly bare handed defense against bo staff, but also offensive moves using a bo staff.  So it is a bo staff combination form, how to defend against a bo staff, and how to attack with one. The first half of the form moves are all defensive, and then the second half are offensive with a staff.


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## MBuzzy

I've definitely heard and seen applications for the bong defense movements, but I've never heard anything about offensive movements being included.


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## clfsean

I've never seen the TSD form being talked about, but it's sounds an awful lot like Jutte (10 Hands or similar) from Shotokan.

Anybody got video of this TSD form?

As far as the Chinese Cross Pattern (Sap Ji /Shi Zi), it's common in Southern CMA's for a set to run this pattern & have it in it's name (Sap Ji Kau Dau, Sap Ji Jit Fu, etc...) but I haven't seen too many nonCMA sets run a cross pattern. Most of the ones I'm most familiar with (Shotokan/old TKD) were I patterns.


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## JT_the_Ninja

@Badaxel: I can see immediately how you would do sip soo with a bong in your hands. Cool. 

@clfsean: iirc, jutte and sip soo are roughly equivalent, from what I've seen. I had a video of myself doing sip soo on youtube, but I was really off on balance that day, so I just took it down...videos of it aren't too hard to find, though.


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## clfsean

I went & watched it. With a few stylistic differences & from what I remember of that was pretty much Jutte.


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## B.Redfield

Yes you are correct, 
Jutte(okinwan/Japanese)= Sip Soo(korean)
Pinan(okinawan) = Pyang Ahn(Korean) = Heian(Japanese)
Naihanchi (okinawan/korean)= Tekki(japanese)
Kusanku(okinawan) = Kong Sang Koon(korean)= Kanku(Japanese)


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## JT_the_Ninja

You forgot one under Naihanchi/Tekki: Keema Hyung (Korean)

Also, the ITSDF refers to kong sang koon as "kong sohn deh," or something that sounds like that...do not ask me for translation, as I don't even know the form myself, being only an e dan. 

Oh, and Bassai (Japanese) = Palche, et al. (Korean)

Tang Soo!


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## clfsean

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Y
> 
> Also, the ITSDF refers to kong sang koon as "kong sohn deh," or something that sounds like that...do not ask me for translation, as I don't even know the form myself, being only an e dan.



Kanku Dai maybe?


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## JT_the_Ninja

clfsean said:


> Kanku Dai maybe?


No, it's just like I posted, "kong sohn deh." I say "sounds like" because I may have gotten the spelling slightly off...I've only seen it written once or twice, and as far as i know it was like that, but mostly I just hear it. TSD is a Korean style, so of course the names of our forms are in Korean.


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## clfsean

JT_the_Ninja said:


> No, it's just like I posted, "kong sohn deh." I say "sounds like" because I may have gotten the spelling slightly off...I've only seen it written once or twice, and as far as i know it was like that, but mostly I just hear it. TSD is a Korean style, so of course the names of our forms are in Korean.



I know TSD is Korean. Kanku Dai could be a transliteration for your Kong Sohn Deh.  I spent the first 10 years of my MA experience learning TKD with the 5 Pyong ahns, Bassai Dai, Kanaku Dai, Jutte, Empi (no bother for Korean translation... I seriously don't know)

B. Redfield listed several forms names in this thread with their Okinawa/Japanese translation to Korean....




> B.Redfield 	 		*Re: Sip Soo - Ten Hands*
> Yes you are correct,
> Jutte(okinwan/Japanese)= Sip Soo(korean)
> Pinan(okinawan) = Pyang Ahn(Korean) = Heian(Japanese)
> Naihanchi (okinawan/korean)= Tekki(japanese)
> Kusanku(okinawan) = Kong Sang Koon(korean)= Kanku(Japanese)


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## MBuzzy

clfsean and Master Redfield are both right.  The original _kata_ was known as Kanku Dai, when Gichin Funakoshi renamed it to Kanku and when it was translated into Korean, it became Kong Sang Koon.  Just like most of our hyung, it was changed ever so slightly when it was imported into Korean, but the hyung is the same.

There is some excellent info on it here.


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## B.Redfield

The original _kata_ was known as Kanku Dai, when Gichin Funakoshi renamed it to Kanku and when it was translated into Korean, it became Kong Sang Koon.

Did you mean Kusanku(okinawan) was renamed Kanku(japanese) by Funikoshi??


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## clfsean

One thing to remember about the OMA/JMA kata Kanku & Bassai. There's a Sho & Dai version of each. 

Probably better info could be found on a JMA website that has a more accurate history of kata. I don't believe the OMAs use a Sho or Dai version of the kata.


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## MBuzzy

B.Redfield said:


> The original _kata_ was known as Kanku Dai, when Gichin Funakoshi renamed it to Kanku and when it was translated into Korean, it became Kong Sang Koon.
> 
> Did you mean Kusanku(okinawan) was renamed Kanku(japanese) by Funikoshi??



Yes, thank you!  I mis-typed....


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## JT_the_Ninja

clfsean said:


> One thing to remember about the OMA/JMA kata Kanku & Bassai. There's a Sho & Dai version of each.
> 
> Probably better info could be found on a JMA website that has a more accurate history of kata. I don't believe the OMAs use a Sho or Dai version of the kata.



You know, I wondered that. We do Palche (Bassai) So and Palche Deh, but as far as I know the ITF only does Kong Sohn (Kanku) Deh. 

I don't know the form yet, though when I do, it might be interesting to look at the differences across styles.


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## Muwubu16858

The  character's of Ship Soo are, as said before, the Korean equal of Jutte of Shotokan. Most Tang Soo Do circles place this hyung in Neh Ga Ryu, or "inside school" as related to the style of execution of techniques. This is a misconseption, created in part by Funakoshi, who placed it first in the Shorei school, then the Shorin school, and back to the Shorei school in his first three books. Originally, before naming it Jutte, Funakoshi refered to it as Jitsu-Te in his first book from 1922. This is one pronounciation of the form, which is known as Jitte (*&#34899;&#25163;*) [pronounced "Sul Soo" in Korea] outside of Shotokan-based systems. It was taught by Itosu Anko Sensei, and arrived into Shotokan most probably through Mabuni Kenwa, who was the second successor of Itosu Ryu. According to the Itosu Kai, which is now headed by Sakagami Sadaaki [4th head of Itosu Ryu{Itosu Anko-Mabuni Kenwa-Sakagami Ryusho-Sakagami Sadaaki}], "It is said that the Jitte, Jion and Jiin Katas are actually all from the same source having been transmitted from the countryside of Tomari. Itosu Anko Sensei recreated these Kata after reorganizing them with the idea of physical fitness in mind and the best way to practice these Kata is in the order of Jitte, Jion, Jiin."**


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## MBuzzy

I have also seen Ship Soo written as Jin Twe in Korean - is this just a more direct translation from the Japanese?  (I'm being lazy tonight or I'd write out the Hangul....but I forget the spelling.)


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## Muwubu16858

In the English Volume 1, the following forms that are listed are GM Hwang's attempt to pronounce them in their original context: Basahee Dae, Passi So, Chin Do, Wang Shu, Tjin, Rohaee Cho-Sam Dan, Tsan Tjin, Ssi San, Ssi Boai, SsanSsi Bbai, Seisan, So-Jin, Sai Hoo Ah, Goo Ryung Hoo Ah, Jin Toi/Ship Soo, Ji-on. The actual korean pronounciation for these forms may be different based on the hanja used, but for the one's we use, in the same order as above: Pal Chae Dae, Pal Chae So, Jin Dang, Wan Soo, Ja Yun, No Pae Cho-Sam Dan, Sam Jun, Ship Sam, Ship Pal, Sam Ship Pal(We use both Sam Ship Pal[28] and Sam Ship Yuk[26/Sanseiru] Forms), Ship Sam/Jung Sam, Jang Jin, Chae Pa, Nae Ryu Pa, Sul Soo, Ja Eum(Eu is silent, just an mmm sound).


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## rafael.ohalloran

In reply to the comments about the application of ship soo, I was taught that it was defense against a staff.

 I picked up a nice book the other day which gives staff defense (and offensive) applications for the form that are pretty good. 

Hidden Karate 2. by Gennoske Higaki. 

Its called Jitte in the book btw. Also Funakoshi's book Karate Do Kyohan lists a couple of apps but is not as complete as Higakis book. I think the book cost me 35 bucks and gives detailed application for 9 advanced forms (Naihanchi 2,3 Bassai Dai, Jion, Jite, Seishan, Jindo, Koon San Kun, Wanshu). Well worth it. 

Hope this helps.
-Rafael


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## Muwubu16858

> Originally Posted by clfsean
> 
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> 
> I don't believe the OMAs use a Sho or Dai version of the kata



This is a wrong statement. Itosu Anko Sensei of Okinawa was behind the formulization of Bassai Sho and Kusanku(Kanku/Kong Sang Koon)Sho, as well as many other kata.


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## punisher73

Sip Soo is based on Jitte kata of Shotokan.  Here is a link to both

Shotokan--Jitte




 
Tang Soo Do--Sip Soo
http://www.natkd.com/pyong_ahn_forms.htm  (scroll down until you see it, they have all of the tsd forms)

Sip soo can mean "10 hands" and also "all hands".  The kata is based on a defense against a bo, and also contains grappling techniques.  Many times in kata when you are doing a movement very slowly, it is to emphasize that the movement is a joint break etc. In Shotokan, it is usually a blackbelt level kata


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## clfsean

Muwubu16858 said:


> This is a wrong statement. Itosu Anko Sensei of Okinawa was behind the formulization of Bassai Sho and Kusanku(Kanku/Kong Sang Koon)Sho, as well as many other kata.



I never said right or wrong. I said I didn't believe. It's been a long time since I've looked at those kata. It's not really my area of practice anymore, but was at one time a long time ago.


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## punisher73

I also forgot to mention that the animals associated with some of the TSD forms were added later by the Koreans, it was not something in the original forms from Okinawa.

I am not sure of the animal origin or why they started this.  I can only remember that 

Pinans=Turtle
Bassai=Snake
Kusanku=Eagle

What are the others?


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## JT_the_Ninja

Sip soo (Jitte) represents the bear.


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## Taiji_Mantis

Please bear with the frustrated tone of this post. It was intended to go elsewhere, but I found this thread when poking around and felt that it may be a good plan to spread some of the wealth.

I have been finding that teachers in certain schools like to tell their students things that are not in all cases true. I am not sure if they do this on purpose or not, but wherever they get their information from, they either dont check it for reliability, or simply dont care. In any case, this incorrect information is passed on to their students and their students students--ultimately creating a big mess--especially when they come across someone who does know something about it from another perspective. The following is a cut and paste--it is not intended to offend. I personally do not believe there is any chance Sip Soo is a Tiger/Crane influenced form. 

All the talk about Karate and Tang Soo Do being Chinese in origin may be true, but I do not believe that everything has to have some deeper meaning. Sometimes things are what they are without any super secret or mysterious history. I think too that the more time is spent on tracing these mysterious histories, the less credibility is given to the art, and the practitioner. Simply stated:

If everyone is so desperate to make a Chinese connection with their Korean or Okinawan art, why not just stop practicing Korean or Okinawan arts and go learn a Chinese Art?

Here are the facts as I see them:

The Sui dynasty preceded the Tang, which is where everyone likes to start with all the Way of the China Hand stuff. That was 618-907 CE. Now the most famous of these Chinese diplomats or Buddhist monks that brought Chuan Fa to the Ryukyu Islands would be Kong Su Kung and Jion. Kong Su Kung or Kosanku didnt arrive in Okinawa until 1762. This could account for the Crane style aspect some speak of as crane was developed during the Ming dynasty, which spanned from 1368 to 1644.

However, the Ten Hands form or Sip Soo/Jitte comes from the same family of Okinawan Kata as Jionnamed presumably for the Buddhist monk of the same name who came from China in the 15th Century. However, this is where things start to fall apart for me with the whole Tiger and Crane theory in the Jitte/Sip Soo animal reference.

Allegedly, Jee Sin who was a Buddhist monk of the Southern Shaolin Temple (if a Southern temple even existed is hotly debated) taught Cai Jiuyi, Liu Sanyan, Li Yiushan, Mo Qingjiao, and Hong XiguanThe five elders of the southern families. Hong Xiguan is probably the most important of these for the purpose of this post in that he is the Jo shi or founder of Hung Gar.

Hung Gars most famous practitioner is without a doubt Huang Feihong, who is probably best known for his refinement of the Tiger Crane form. Feihong died in 1924. Now, if one looks into history as one Grandmaster saysthe Japanese Empire was at its height from 1868 to 1945. Who did the Chinese hate above anyone else? The Japanese. Not that the Japanese and the Okinawans were the same ethnic enemy as the Japanese, but The Chinese didnt teach their system to any outsiders as a rule. Now it isnt to say that this rule wasnt broken, because it was, but it does decrease the likelihood of Tiger and Crane being given to the Okinawans during this period of history even more.

Now please do not misunderstandI am not saying that there were not other sources of Tiger and Crane to allot for the so-called Tiger connection, but this being the most likely source of the form makes it pretty _un_likely. Oh there is that whole Shaolin Black Tiger thing, but that originated in the late 19th century.

On to the forms themselvesI can see nothing that bears any resemblance to Hong family kungfu in Jitte/Sip Soo. That in and of itself says how bastardized the form must be from its original source. The applications are simply not there the way they would be intended.

So to recap:
1.	Doesnt match physically.
2.	Doesnt match historically.
3.	Doesnt match politically.

My guess this form is in Tang Soo Do what it is everywhere else--Okinawan.


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