# Terrorism And SD



## Dark (Jun 18, 2006)

Do you think the war on terror has influenced self-defense training? And if so is it for the better or worst?

I personally find the media and the politicians view of terrorism to be a failing arguement. Terrorism like Sept 11th is a rare occurance, however for example as seen in Isreal acts such as blowing up schools, clinics, temples, and shooting up grocery stores creates an unstable enviroment moral wise and politically. Any thoughts?


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## pstarr (Jun 18, 2006)

I think it probably has influenced self-defense to some degree.  That may be where we started seeing the "reality self-defense" schools (as opposed to the fantasy, non-reality based schools ) gaining ground.

I'm, told that Krav Maga has self-defense techniques for dealing with an assailant armed with a grenade (kind of a no-brainer...) and other such scenarios.

Although hand-to-hand fighting is of little use in situations where buildings are being blown apart, it still is very useful - not only physically, but mentally (and even emotionally) as well.


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## Dark (Jun 18, 2006)

Well considering we haven't seen real terrorism yet, Sept 11th was a tragety but it was geared toward the government. In some countries Israel for example schools, temples and hospitals were getting blown up pretty regularly at one time.


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## MJS (Jun 18, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> Do you think the war on terror has influenced self-defense training? And if so is it for the better or worst?
> 
> I personally find the media and the politicians view of terrorism to be a failing arguement. Terrorism like Sept 11th is a rare occurance, however for example as seen in Isreal acts such as blowing up schools, clinics, temples, and shooting up grocery stores creates an unstable enviroment moral wise and politically. Any thoughts?


 
I think that after 9/11, many people started to put more of a focus on being more aware and also on learning SD.  IMO, I think that 9/11 did serve as a wake up call as to how lax we were in taking proper precautions.  Granted, nothing on that level has happened in a while, so of course, what happens...we start getting lax again.  Yes, in some countries terrorism happens on a much more regular basis, but I still think that just because its not happening here, that we should neglect being aware and still focus on our own personal SD.

Mike


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## Franc0 (Jun 19, 2006)

Good topic, and one I was discussing with another MA Instructor friend of mine. We both figured that with so many of our soldiers engaging in all kinds of counter terrorist house to house & close quarter operations, there'll be lot's of feed back about what's working out there and what's not concerning weapons and close quarter hand to hand tactics.
Like pstarr mentioned before, I could see not long from now lot's more RBSD instructors popping up with parts of their resume including things like "experienced H2H combat in Iraq". Lot's of vets engaging in long term conflicts equal lot's of "experienced" future instructors.

Franco


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## trueaspirer (Jun 19, 2006)

Sept 11 was definately not aimed at the government. Terrorism is meant to scare people, not to influence govt. people. By assaulting a well-known and commonly-accessed building, they caused people to be unsure of what was safe and what was not, even places that were assumptions. Also, the world trade centers were monuments, in a sense, symbols of America. That is a another reason why they were targeted. 
And don't forget that thw pentagon was attacked, and the white house was a target as well. By taking out the high officials, they felt that the country would fall apart with no leadership, even though leadership is _not_ what this country is about.
I do think, however, that the attack moralized people, and encouraged them to prepare themselves for another attack, psychologically, and physically.


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## Dark (Jun 19, 2006)

trueaspirer said:
			
		

> Sept 11 was definately not aimed at the government. Terrorism is meant to scare people, not to influence govt. people. By assaulting a well-known and commonly-accessed building, they caused people to be unsure of what was safe and what was not, even places that were assumptions.


 
The World Trade Centers were the center for global trade in the US. The US economy lost billions from that event, the white house and pentagon are technically military targets. The presedent is commander in chief of the military after all. 

Terrorism is about influencing the government, through the fear of its people. We are lucky however, that we have not seen the hieghts of terrorism as seem in Gaza, Saudi or Russa.


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## still learning (Jun 19, 2006)

Hello, How to practice against IED"S?  

Most of us will still practice what we do......Aloha

PS: We did talk about bomb going off/grenades thrown..what to do....Try to lay down ,get you feet/shoes point at the bomb, cover your ears, and kept the mouth open (to prevent concussions to the body).


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## tradrockrat (Jun 24, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> The World Trade Centers were the center for global trade in the US. The US economy lost billions from that event, the white house and pentagon are technically military targets. The presedent is commander in chief of the military after all.
> 
> Terrorism is about influencing the government, through the fear of its people. We are lucky however, that we have not seen the hieghts of terrorism as seem in Gaza, Saudi or Russa.



This is silly - we're all potential soldiers so I guess there really is no terrorism at all, huh?  Especially over there in Israel where all men are required to train/serve in the military

you're contradicting yourself in your posts too.  Sept. 11 WAS terrorism as you define it - they wanted to influence the government by scaring the people of America by toppling our economy and removing our leaders.

You are correct that we have not seen the volume of terrorist attacks like the middle east and other places, but don't try to ignore or subvert what happened here on September 11th.  We were attacked by a terrorist organization using terrorist tacticts to perpatrate an act of terror on the populace of America.

now as for the actual question - absolutely it has affected training.  Those that work with law enforcment agencies know it for sure - training has changed and it has trickled (flooded) down to the civilian population.


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## still learning (Jun 24, 2006)

Hello, Most of us train because of the bad people out there...not because of terrorism.

We have more concerns in our own home areas and places we go to in America. 

More Americans are killed,robb,attack,rape,and so on...than by terrorist...

Train to fight against our own people (bad guys).......Aloha


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## Dark (Jun 24, 2006)

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> This is silly - we're all potential soldiers so I guess there really is no terrorism at all, huh? Especially over there in Israel where all men are required to train/serve in the military


 
It is not the potental to be a soldier but being a soldier, Isreal isn't the only country to require all men serve in the military. Infact most contries do, so whats your point.



			
				tradrockrat said:
			
		

> you're contradicting yourself in your posts too. Sept. 11 WAS terrorism as you define it - they wanted to influence the government by scaring the people of America by toppling our economy and removing our leaders.


 
The same tactic is used by guerilla warfare, does that mean all terrorists are guerrillas and all guerrillas are terrorist? Terrorism is geared to attack civilians and cause fear in panic in the Civilian circle. Guerrilla warfare is directed against military or at the very least regime support centers.

Now that doesn't say civilians won't get caught in the cross fire, it says there is a distinction between one or the other.Now there is also terrorism as a crime, senseless acts of violence with no clear purpose, which is not the case with Islamic Fundamentalist Terror groups. There are clear distinct lines for a reason...


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## spinkick (Jul 6, 2006)

It doesnt matter if you are Bruce Lee or a shaolin monk, there is no way to defend yourself against a car bomber except to not be there


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## Drac (Jul 6, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> I'm, told that Krav Maga has self-defense techniques for dealing with an assailant armed with a grenade (kind of a no-brainer...) and other such scenarios.


 
You gotta be kidding me???


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## JBrainard (Jul 6, 2006)

:soapbox: The likelyhood of getting attacked by a terrorist is practically nill in the US. If you want to study "martial arts" with a political slant, buy yourself some guns and train in empty hand combat that you can use against OUR government's opressors. Remember folks, our right to bare arms is not so that we can go hunting, it's so that we can rise up if our government becomes corrupt.
"It's still We The People, right?"


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## tradrockrat (Jul 6, 2006)

hold on a second guys - the question was did the war on terror influence self defense training as a whole?

Of course it has!  Just because we personally still train for the same reasons we always did does not mean that training to combat terrorist attacks has not begun or been implemented - it most assuredly has.  My wife is required to take terrorism based tactical training every 4 months for her job. This program did not even exist until after sept 11.  So yeah - the war on terror has influenced the very concept of self defense and thus changed how people train in self defense.




Dark - my point is that in your initial post you claimed that Sept 11 was a terrorist attack,





> Terrorism like Sept 11th is a rare occurance


 then you later implied it wasn't because the white house was a military target and the WTC was an economic target - whatever that might mean other than convienient semantics.





> Well considering we haven't seen real terrorism yet, Sept 11th was a tragety but it was geared toward the government.



I call ********.  My point was that your line of reasoning is absurd - you say we haven't experienced terror, but Israel does daily - yet by your own words, military targets are not terrorism and I pointed out that EVERY MALE IN ISRAEL is a soldier.  so I guess that means you were wrong.  There's no terrorism in Isreal - it's just guerrilla fighting against the military targets.  Women and children are just collateral damage.  Again, I call ********.

Over 2000 civilians were killed in those towers - not soldiers or our commander in chief.  Now you are implying that the attacks on our soil were Guerrilla warfare because they attacked military targets - as you defined them.  Did the "guerillas" not know about the civilians?  Were those people "collateral damage " in the fight against our government?  Notice I said OUR GOVERNMENT not the terrorists government.  Civilians were, in fact, the _*intended *_victims of that attack.  It was a symbolic attack upon america and a *real* attack against the population.  It was about fear.

It was Terrorism.


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## KOROHO (Jul 6, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> You gotta be kidding me???


 
He's not kidding.  
But then again, in basic training in the Army they taught us somethings to do to try and not get killed.  Of course there is a certain range where only a miracle will save your life.  But if you can't outrun the explosion you can hit the ground facing away from the explosion and cover your head with your arms.  You will catch some flak and may even still get killed, there are no guarantees.  I believe this is what the Krav Maga is teaching people.  I don't know what the Army is teaching today.

Although there was one Krav Maga instructor who taught a technique where a "terrorist" was holding a hand grenade and pulled the pin, he then grabbed the grenade hand and held his fingers down tightly against the clip so that it could not explode.  Subdued and disarmed him and then the next step would be to get the pin back or run and throw the grenade someplace where there were no people.  I guess he saw too many movies.

No martial arts training will protect you from a car bomb, chemicl attack or anything.  But since 9/11, more schools are working in close/narrow quarters - such as a center aisle of a plane or bus  The Koroho that I am teaching now is very good for environments like this when faced with a knife and other weapons.  Of course even Koroho will not offer much protection against a suitcase bomb or something.

I have seen a proliferation of martial arts schools teaching "homeland security" type seminars.  It's pretty shameless and I would not trust them.
We teach techniques and talk about tight places like center aisles - where you can not get off the line you have to move back.  But I would never be able to bring myself to talk specifically about taking out terrorists.  And the hand grenade techniques are only discussed after class when we are joking around.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 6, 2006)

KOROHO said:
			
		

> No martial arts training will protect you from a car bomb, chemicl attack or anything..



I dunno... I think that the physical techniques might not, but learning the awareness, the ability to remian calm under pressure... etc. MIGHT.


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## KOROHO (Jul 6, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I dunno... I think that the physical techniques might not, but learning the awareness, the ability to remian calm under pressure... etc. MIGHT.


 
Very true.  But I thought we were talking about fighting back.
If you have developed a greater sense of awareness, you may see someone at a train station sitting down and then getting up and walking away from thier briefcase or might pick up on a nervous guy on a bus.  

Once a bomb goes off, you may be able to keep your head about you and have a better chance of survival.

This is not a terrorism but is relative to these same kinds of emergencies.

I got back to work from lunch one time and stepped into the men's room.  I was in there for just a few seconds when the lights went out.  There was some reaction from some people in there but I wasn't really flustered at all. As I started to leave I heard someone screaming "fire! fire! There's a fire!".  Some piece of machinery had burst into flames after an electrical surge when something happened to the transformer outside.  The person screaming was just running in circles around a table, throwing her hands up in the air.  Others were running in circles trying to find an exit, pushing each other and trying to be the first one out.  Those in the rest room who were startkled by the lights going out couldn't even get out of the rest room.  One other person closer to the machinery hit the kill switch to cut off power.  Another responded by saying "just put it out then!" and he grabbed the fire extinguisher which about a dozen screaming people ran right past and killed the fire.  

This was a very minor fire emergency.  I was just astounded.  These people would never have a chance at survival in any kind of major disaster.

I don't know if the other cool and calm people had martial arts training.  But they're quick and calm reactions saved the company a lot of money and perhaps even lives.  If the fire spread, I know I would have gotten out, but the others would have just ran around in circles until they succumed to the smoke.  Those that could not organize an escape from the bathroom may have lasted longer but would be just as dead.


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## Dark (Jul 7, 2006)

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> I call ********. My point was that your line of reasoning is absurd - you say we haven't experienced terror, but Israel does daily - yet by your own words, military targets are not terrorism and I pointed out that EVERY MALE IN ISRAEL is a soldier. so I guess that means you were wrong. There's no terrorism in Isreal - it's just guerrilla fighting against the military targets. Women and children are just collateral damage. Again, I call ********.


 
Not every male, there are former soldiers there as well, once you've served you go from soldier to veteran... I'll have to ask my Isreali friend to find out for sure, but I know Russian military service ends at age 30 unless you make it permenant career.



			
				tradrockrat said:
			
		

> Over 2000 civilians were killed in those towers - not soldiers or our commander in chief. Now you are implying that the attacks on our soil were Guerrilla warfare because they attacked military targets - as you defined them. Did the "guerillas" not know about the civilians? Were those people "collateral damage " in the fight against our government? Notice I said OUR GOVERNMENT not the terrorists government. Civilians were, in fact, the _*intended *_victims of that attack. It was a symbolic attack upon america and a *real* attack against the population. It was about fear.


 
What about the thousands of civilians the US as killed with long range missles? What about the masses of deaths resembling Nazi acts against American India tribes that went all the way up to the 60s and 70s and even into the earily 80s in some cases? What about what we did to Japanese Americans during WWII? We cabn make that endless arguement asigning blame, but that serves no purpose. Just cause the media and the politicians scream terrorist doesn't mean anything. 

And no the civilians weren't the target the nations encomy was! Now that said I won't say that the deaths were not a tragety, death period is horrible. There is a simple reality; no matter why you kill be faith, religion, power or patriotism *you are still a murder.* They were a murders, but it the sad truth of every soldier who has fought and killed in battle or war has to live with everyday of their lives. Murder is murder, to that we can and I think do both agree.

The disstiction between guerrillia warfare and terrorism is there solely for the point of understanding your enemy. Terrorist networks are little to non-existant in the US and thus attacks aginst schools, hospitals, and churches is restrained to government targets for a specific reason.

What happens in a culture where defilance and self-sufficient attitudes are glorified when woman, children and the sick are targeted? That defiant attitudes becomes directed to either saving thier family or to facing an enemy. True terrorism launched against the US would result the civilians seeking their own "justice." That means terrorist would suffer from linch mobs and vigilanty survivalists. So if targets are geared toward government targets, the terrorist appear anti-government and are less likely to outright attacked.

Guerrilla warfare is substituted for outright terrorism simply because the fear of a completely united, United States... That simantic you were talking about serves to keep the "last superpower" from being completely united and focused on them. That simantic is a method of not ticking of the dragon to much so to speak...


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## Dark (Jul 7, 2006)

KOROHO said:
			
		

> I don't know if the other cool and calm people had martial arts training. But they're quick and calm reactions saved the company a lot of money and perhaps even lives. If the fire spread, I know I would have gotten out, but the others would have just ran around in circles until they succumed to the smoke. Those that could not organize an escape from the bathroom may have lasted longer but would be just as dead.


 
Kinda sad to watch people run around like chickens with their heads cut off.


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## tradrockrat (Jul 7, 2006)

well Dark, you seem like a good guy and I agree with many things I've seen you post here, but on this one we'll just have to agree to disagree.  I don't care if terrorists pretend to be guerillas to avoid our unified wrath or not, they're still terrorists commiting acts of terror to me.

As for Americas culpability in mass murders and genocide, well aren't governments commiting atrocities on thier own soil - no matter how horrible - still just a government exterminating and oppressing it's people?  and these thousands of people we killed with long range missiles - was that during a war?  You know, government vs. government, military targets with collateral damage?  Last I heard Osama has never been in charge of a country's government and no country declared war on us before 9/11

I guess it's still more of that word play, huh?  

anyway... how about them Redskins?


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## still learning (Jul 8, 2006)

Hello, Anyone who takes martial arts is not because of the "Terrorist".

We have too worry more about the people around us...the "bad" people.

In Hawaii...if you do business down the harbors...you need a special card.
Requires a special class by the Harbor Division. About two hours long.

Purpose is to be extra eyes and ears for the government (look out's) for anything suspicious, and report it to the proper people listed on the card.

The main reason for this...it is "IMPOSSIBLE" for them to inspect every single cargo/container that comes in to Hawaii.

Did you know on the "BIG Island of Hawaii", Kawaihae harbor....ONLY one container may get inspected a week from all the hunderds that arrive every week!

The mainland (USA)harbors are worst... they receive thousands of container a week...and only a hand few are inspected.....EXPECT ....TERRRIOST actions coming from the containers.

Next week special classes on "DEFENDING against containers".....1st lesson Open doors.... stay tune for more....like the lift and block...than the send back techniques.........Aloha


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## Robert Lee (Jul 9, 2006)

To train aginst terrorists. You would train for kill, subdue, and disarm, Then how to notice activity that alerts you to possible problems. But there have been several jump on the band wagon. teach terrorist defence tactics for the sake of money really. M/A alone can not fight these people you need weapons training and profile understanding. Most terrorist will have some kind of weapon And they have a plan the average person will not know anything until something happens or is about to happen. And most terrorist are ready to die for there cause. A person has to realize the needed action and the end result.  Most M/A schools train to deal with secondary defence. And many who train in a M/A . are not out after a hard core training that prepares them for hard fought street fight much less a terrorist. Mental training how to stay calm be smart would best meet there needs. Someone wanting to kill you or others Will be ahead on a plan and you will be surprised when it comes down. How one deals will be that moment. But here in the U S  it can happen but when , If,  and what will happen well  Train smart think smart live your life Its a new age in what you call terrorist activity. They are the hidden danger small in numbers that strike targets that is aimed at our goverment our financial  areas. Our goverment has trained people that over hear, investigate and  deal with it as nessasry as they can. I would not promote terrorist training for a M/A class because I believe its more for the money Of the few that have Tried to set up training for the public At a fee.


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## spinkick (Jul 21, 2006)

Now that I think about it, if your talking about being hijacked like the sep. 11 victims  and not getting carbombed then martial arts could save you... wait ... no it couldnt because who would fly the damn plane? Well anyways at least you could  take the boxcutter weilding punk out before  you died..


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## Phoenix44 (Jul 24, 2006)

FYI, military service in Israel is compulsory for men AND women.


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## OUMoose (Jul 24, 2006)

spinkick said:
			
		

> Now that I think about it, if your talking about being hijacked like the sep. 11 victims and not getting carbombed then martial arts could save you... wait ... no it couldnt because who would fly the damn plane? Well anyways at least you could take the boxcutter weilding punk out before you died..


Between ILS and the radio communications, the plane could almost land itself.  Besides, I'd rather take my chances with someone attempting to _land_ the plane rather than _crash_ it.


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