# Kukkiwon question: were all unified kwans TKD?



## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 1, 2010)

I thought that I would ask this is the general section: were any of the kwans that were unified into the Kukkiwon *not* taekwondo?  In other words, were any of them going by KSD, HKD, TSD, etc.

Thank you,

Daniel


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## Master K (Apr 1, 2010)

Most Kwans that unified under "Taekwondo" were KSD & TSD based on my sources.


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## terryl965 (Apr 1, 2010)

I would have to agree with Master K on this one.....


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## JWLuiza (Apr 1, 2010)

I agree with those above. The unification was the process of creating TKD. Also, TKA was at least the second name under consideration.


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## Manny (Apr 15, 2010)

So TSD was the father or originator of TKD. In my younger days (Korean Karate as it was named) my sambonim told us that TKD origins were TSD and SBD.

For me TKD was the name that Gen Choi put to the new MA that originates of the union of some Korean Martila Arfts Kwans, so they get together and do a review of all their techs and agree to use some of them and invented some more and the emphazis was on kicking mostly.

Manny


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 15, 2010)

As I understand it, there were originally five kwans that unified, and four more joined shortly thereafter. The unified Kwans selected Tae Kwon Do from several suggested names. Tang So Do was one other suggestion. It has been suggested that Tae Kwon Do was selected for it's phonetic similarity to Taekyon, one of the historic martial arts of Korea. Details and hard facts about the unification are somewhat fuzzy...

Unless I am mistaken, the first five kwans were
Moo Duk Kwan
Chung Do Kwan
Jidokwan
Chang Moo Kwan
Song Moo Kwan

And they were soon joined by
Oh Do Kwan
Han Moo Kwan
Kang Duk Kwan
Jung Do Kwan

So technically, none of the Kwans were Tae Kwon Do.


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## rmclain (Apr 15, 2010)

Changmoo Kwan and Kang Duk Won were not TKD. They taught a combined karate and kwon bup (chuan-fa) curriculum. Those kwan leaders Changmoo-kwan: Lee Nam-sok,  im Soon-Bae; Kang Duk Won: Park Chul-hee, Hong Jong-pyo were all students of Yoon Byung-in. Yoon Byung-in taught karate,chuan-fa, and bong-sul.

R. McLain


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## Kyosanim (Apr 28, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I thought that I would ask this is the general section: were any of the kwans that were unified into the Kukkiwon *not* taekwondo?  In other words, were any of them going by KSD, HKD, TSD, etc.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Daniel




Okay this is a really fuzzy issue that I don't think even a lot of the Koreans know for sure, so please do not take my word for it.

From what I understand there were about eight kwons that combined to make  the kukkiwon. Ummmmmmm hmmmmmmm.......... This is really hard to say because as stated before no one really knows all that well.



Being as TKD, and HKD, are taught together most of the time at least in Korea and Hapkido black belts are Kukkiwon certified there would have to be HKD in there.


Now if you look at what hapkido is I suppose you can answer your own question.

Hapkido/Habgido = low kicks meant to cripple the legs and break the knees, joint locks and breaks for control/submission and ending the fight outright along with punches and other hand strike plus a few knees and elbows.

In Korean.

Habi = to throw 
Ki = inner power
Do = way/philosophy

Hapkido is the way of the force from within or something like that.

I have also seen it translated as the way of inner harmony and power.

Hapkido mainly involves grappling techniques. Do you have any grappling like joint locks in your style? if so it came from hapkido. As stated before its all the same thing to the koreans. 

Now my school is a line of teachers that come strait down from Judikwon, and my personal training has been more in line with hapkido than tae kwon do.
My training is for sure striking focused but it has a hapkido flavor to it, but I'm 1st dan in TKD not HKD so of course I was taught to strike not grapple, though some of it bleeds through on both sides obviously. The HKD black belts will own me in a grapple match, but I have the upper hand in striking, though to really be any good at my old school you have to have bb's in both.

Anyway I know Judikwon whether termed TKD or not is more of a HKD style so take it for what its worth.

The best way to find out would be to ask a Korean history major lol.

Good luck finding one, and I hope this helps but I really doubt it as it is just a bunch I don't really know.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 28, 2010)

The quantity and identity of the kwans that are credited with forming taekwondo is known, with some school's websites referencing them.  

Seems that Wikipedia holds the answer to my original question, though I generally don't like to rely too much on Wiki.

Now this is what Wikipedia says about them: 

*Songmukwan* - 11-March 1944 (my birthday, though not birth year)
Founded by Byung Jik Ro, who had studied Shotokan (Song do kwan) along with Won Kyuk Lee under Funakoshi.  Ro's successor and son, Hee Sang Ro, studied karate, hapkido, kumdo, and Northern Shaolin Kung Fu.

*Chungdokwan* - 1944
Founded by Won Kyuk Lee, who studied Taekyeon, kung fu, and karate. 

*Mudukwan* - 1946
Founded by Hwang Kee, who trained in taekyeon, tai chi, and some kind of kung fu in China.  Lee of CDK claims that Kee was his student, but Kee denied this.  Kee discovered subak when he read the Muyedobotongji, and called his art Subakdo, but later the organization became Mudukwan tangsudo.

*Changmukwan* - 1946
Founder had studied Chuan fa, and called his art Kwonbop kongsudo, which was based on Chuan fa.

*Yunmukwan/Jidokwan* - 3-March 1946
Full name was Chosun Yunmukwan Kongsudo Bu, and had been a Japanese judo school for thirty years prior to 1946.

The four later kwans were:

*Hanmukwan *- 1954
Founded by Lee Kyo Yun, was an offshoot of Jidokwan

*Ohdokwan* - 1955
Offshoot of CDK, founded by Choi.  Lots of info on this one, lol.

*Kang Duk Won* - 1956
Founded by Park Chul Hee and Hong Jong Pyo as an offshoot of the  Kwon Bop Bu/Chang Moo Kwan.

*Jungdokwan* - 1956
Founded by Lee Yong Woo (died August, 2006) as an offshoot of  the Chung Do Kwan.


None of them called themselves or what they were teaching taekwondo initially, as the term had not been coined at that point.  I think that the first to use the term was Ohdokwan, as Choi coined the term.  

Which is of course the brings me to the question in the OP: All of these kwans were rolled into the Kukkiwon, but what did each of them call what they taught before the kwan unification?

As I said above, Wikipedia seems to answer this, though I restated that I am generally hesitant to just take Wikipedia at face value on this.

Daniel


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## Master K (Apr 28, 2010)

Unfortunately that Wikipedia article has some errors in it too.  I am not sure how accurate it is.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 28, 2010)

Master K said:


> Unfortunately that Wikipedia article has some errors in it too.  I am not sure how accurate it is.


Thus the reason that I do not rely on them.  Wouldn't be the first time either.

Daniel


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## Kyosanim (May 20, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Thus the reason that I do not rely on them.  Wouldn't be the first time either.
> 
> Daniel




Seems that there is a lack of reliable info when it comes this subject. Perhaps a trip to Korea is in order.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 25, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> Seems that there is a lack of reliable info when it comes this subject. Perhaps a trip to Korea is in order.


My passport still has about five years on it.  Perhaps indeed.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (May 25, 2010)

*Kwan*​*Year*​*Founder*​*Style*​*Influences*​*5 Original Taekwondo Kwans*




*Chung Do Kwon*
*1944*​*Lee Won Kuk *​*Tang Soo Do*​_*Shotokan** karate*_​*Moo Duk Kwan*
*1946*​*Hwang Kee*​_*Hwa** Soo Do / Tang Soo Do*_​*Tai Chi / Kung Fu / Shotokan karate*​*Song Moo Kwan*
*1946*​*Ro Byung Jick*​*Tang Soo Do*​_*Shotokan** karate*_​*Kwon Bop Bu / Chang Moo Kwon*
*1946*​*Yoon Byung In*​*Kong Soo Do*​_*Shudokan** karate*_​_*Yun** Mo** Kwan / Jidokwan*_
*1946*​*Chun Sang Sup*​*Kong Soo Do*​_*Shotokan** karate*_​*Later Taekwondo Kwans*




*Han Moo Kwan*
*1954*​*Lee Kyo Yoon*​*1 year*​_*Yun** Moo Kwan / Jidokwan*_​*Oh Do Kwan*
*1955*​_*Choi** Hong Hi / Nam Tae Hi / Han Cha Kyo*_​*14 months*​*Chung Do Kwan*​*Kang Duk Kwan*
*1956*​*Park chul Hee / Hong Jong Pyo*​*16 months*​*Kwon Bop Bu / Chang Moo Kwan*​*Jung Do Kwan*
*1956*​*Lee Yong Woo*​*20 months*​*Chung Do Kwan*​ 
Daniel here is some more info.


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## SahBumNimRush (May 26, 2010)

Most of them taught either Kong Soo Do (the way of the open hand, aka Karate-Do) or Tang Soo Do (the way of the Chinese Tang Hand, aka Karate-Do)  

The fact that the Japanese/Okinawan art of Karate originally translated into the way of the Tang hand, in reference to the Chinese Tang dynasty, the Korean people wanted to distance themselves from Tang Soo Do.  When the Japanese changed the meaning of Karate to mean the way of the open hand, the Korean people wanted to distance themselves from Kong Soo Do.  

After being occupied by the Japanese from 1910-1945, and having their own culture squashed, the Koreans wanted nothing to do with anything likening their arts to Japan.  

General Choi, forced the name Tae Kwon Do on the unification process, and because of his military clout he was successful in doing so.. .

There were some schools that did not use either Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do.  Hwang Kee originally called his art Hwa Soo Do, but no one wanted to learn "the way of the flowering hand," so he changed the name to Tang Soo Do (and later Soo Bahk Do).

The Chang Moo Kwan labeled their art as Kwon Bup Bu (Ch'uan Fa)

That being said, the labels do not necessarily accurately reflect what was being taught.  

Each founder of the 9 Kwans had backgrounds in various arts.  All of them had some foundation in Karate (mostly Japanese), but alot of them had backgrounds in Chinese arts as well (Yang Tai Chi, Ch'uan Fa) and the Korean arts, to some extent, of Ship Pal Gi (18 martial methods of the Muyedobotonji, which was Chinese in origin), Tae Kyun, etc.. . 

We also have to consider the large amount of cross-fertilization that took place between the Kwans in the early days.  For example Byung In Yoon (Chang Moo Kwan founder) taught his Ch'uan Fa to Byung Jick Ro (Song Moo Kwan), Ki Whang Kim, and Hwang Kee (Moo Duk Kwan).  

While it is a fascinating topic of conversation, the truths are often clouded because of the original distaste of the Japanese after their occupation of Korea, AND the Korean struggle for individuality after nearly 35 years of cultural oppression.  The problem is that now, 65 years later, the same stories are still there.. .


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## Archtkd (May 26, 2010)

Here are some good sources of info about the founding of Taekwondo: 

http://tkd.stanford.edu/documents/tkd_history.pdf. 
http://journalofasianmartialarts.com/cms2/images/stories/sample_articles/Korea-DB.pdf

Alex Gillis' book: "A Killing Art -- The Untold history of Tae Kwon Do," is also a good source


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## toddfletcher (Mar 16, 2015)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> *Ohdokwan* - 1955
> Offshoot of CDK, founded by Choi. Lots of info on this one, lol.


Here is what I was told by my master about OhDoKwan:

OhDoKwan was founded in South Korean by General Choi Hong Hi and Nam Tae Hi. It was a key aspect of the Republic of Korea Army’s training program. The civilian annex was called “Dae Han TaeKwon-Do Oh Do Kwan Jung Ang Bon Kwan” in Seoul. OhDoKwan was originally made up of ChungDoKwan members. Due to their efforts to develop Oh Do Kwan under new leadership they were all expelled from ChungDoKwan.

TaeKwonDo was formed in 1972, when the major kwans (schools) of Korean martial arts unified. After this, OhDoKwan followed the World TaeKwon-Do Federation and Kukkiwon and it’s curriculum. 

Grandmaster Kevin Kim was the 4th ‘head’ of the civil annex in Seoul Korea before moving to the United States. He is my master.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 20, 2015)

Kyosanim said:


> ...
> Being as TKD, and HKD, are taught together most of the time at least in Korea and Hapkido black belts are Kukkiwon certified there would have to be HKD in there.
> 
> ...
> ...



Didn't see this thread before.

I don't know what is being done now, but when I was in Korea, I never saw Hapkido and Taekwando being taught together.  I certainly never heard of Hapkido being certified by the Kukkiwon.  I was certified by the Korean Hapkido Federation/Association (I have seen documents with both).  To my understanding, when the TKD organization began to assimilate kwans, Hapkido and Tang Su Do were the holdouts.  After many years, I think Tang Su Do finally joined.  But as I saw it practiced the last time I was in Korea (1984-1986), it had some very distinct characteristics from TKD.

I think perhaps your Habgido and Gumdo and just different transliterations of Hapkido and Kumdo.  There are several ways (alphabets if you will) for translating Korean words into English.  Your characterization of Hapkido is a little simplified.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 20, 2015)

toddfletcher said:


> Here is what I was told by my master about OhDoKwan:
> 
> OhDoKwan was founded in South Korean by General Choi Hong Hi and Nam Tae Hi. It was a key aspect of the Republic of Korea Army’s training program. The civilian annex was called “Dae Han TaeKwon-Do Oh Do Kwan Jung Ang Bon Kwan” in Seoul. OhDoKwan was originally made up of ChungDoKwan members. Due to their efforts to develop Oh Do Kwan under new leadership they were all expelled from ChungDoKwan.
> 
> ...



I don't know that I would say TaeKwonDo was formed in 1972, only maybe as the unifying head of many none TKD organizations.  I studied TaeKwanDo under Jhoon Goo Rhee in 1965.  I also saw it taught in Vietnam in the mid-late 60s.  It was rather unknown in the USA then, and we would tell people we studied TKD, and then usually have to tell them it was sort of like Karate.  Back then, people knew of Karate (from WWII vets) and Kung Fu from TV programs.  TKD, mostly not.


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## Spookey (Mar 30, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Didn't see this thread before.
> 
> I don't know what is being done now, but when I was in Korea, I never saw Hapkido and Taekwando being taught together.  I certainly never heard of Hapkido being certified by the Kukkiwon.  I was certified by the Korean Hapkido Federation/Association (I have seen documents with both).  To my understanding, when the TKD organization began to assimilate kwans, Hapkido and Tang Su Do were the holdouts.  After many years, I think Tang Su Do finally joined.  But as I saw it practiced the last time I was in Korea (1984-1986), it had some very distinct characteristics from TKD.
> 
> I think perhaps your Habgido and Gumdo and just different transliterations of Hapkido and Kumdo.  There are several ways (alphabets if you will) for translating Korean words into English.  Your characterization of Hapkido is a little simplified.


May I ask who Kevin Kim's instructors are/were?


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 4, 2016)

Spookey said:


> May I ask who Kevin Kim's instructors are/were?



I have no idea.  I am not familiar with even who he might be.  Perhaps someone else may be able to help you.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 5, 2016)

toddfletcher said:


> Here is what I was told by my master about OhDoKwan:
> 
> 
> TaeKwonDo was formed in 1972, when the major kwans (schools) of Korean martial arts unified. .



I think / hope you misunderstoood your master if he used the 1972 Date.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 5, 2016)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I thought that I would ask this is the general section: were any of the kwans that were unified into the Kukkiwon *not* taekwondo?  In other words, were any of them going by KSD, HKD, TSD, etc.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Daniel



Any kwan existing before 1955 was not doing TKD before that time. TKD did not exist.    When the KKW unified Kwans it was accepting many different systems for rank.   Now, if one day I am doing Krav Maga and the next day I do nothing but change the name to TKD does that my school is now a TKD school?


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 5, 2016)

Earl Weiss said:


> Any kwan existing before 1955 was not doing TKD before that time. TKD did not exist.    When the KKW unified Kwans it was accepting many different systems for rank.   Now, if one day I am doing Krav Maga and the next day I do nothing but change the name to TKD does that my school is now a TKD school?



A rose by any other name...

But the KKW didn't exist until well after the unification. The unification created the Korea Taesoodo Association, which became the Korean Taekwondo Association, which spawned the Kukkiwon.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 5, 2016)

EARL WEISS SAID: ↑
Any kwan existing before 1955 was not doing TKD before that time. TKD did not exist. When the KKW unified Kwans it was accepting many different systems for rank. Now, if one day I am doing Krav Maga and the next day I do nothing but change the name to TKD does that my school is now a TKD school?



Dirty Dog said:


> A rose by any other name...
> 
> But the KKW didn't exist until well after the unification. The unification created the Korea Taesoodo Association, which became the Korean Taekwondo Association, which spawned the Kukkiwon.



I don't think it makes a difference. If you are doing CDK, TSD, MDK does it somehow become "TKD" because you choose to call it such?  Does that fact that  you become "Unified" whatever that means under an org calling itself the Korea TSD assoc., which doesn't even use the name somehow make what you do TKD? 

If you call a tail a leg does that mean a dog has 5 legs?


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## Kong Soo Do (Apr 6, 2016)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> *Hanmukwan *- 1954
> Founded by Lee Kyo Yun, was an offshoot of Jidokwan





Kyosanim said:


> Seems that there is a lack of reliable info when it comes this subject.



Inaccuracies do pop up with some frequency, and it's hard to determine who is telling the truth and who isn't.  As an example, GM Lee states that HMK was never an offshoot of Jidokwan but comes directly from YMK.  However, many in Jidokwan say that yes, HMK came from them but there was a falling out and the history was rewritten. 

In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter a whole lot as far as the actual training.  But it's a bear if your trying to track an accurate lineage for students.


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