# Tang Soo Do / The Next Generation



## master dave (Jul 25, 2003)

Starting Tang Soo Do in the 60"s ive seen many changes take place. from small clubs in local vfw halls to now giant headquarters. When Tae Kwon Do came on the scene, they advertised in papers and phone books back in the old days. opened up store front schools. but tang soo do avoided the limelight! we remained humbal, content to stay out of the public eye to an extent, we were happy teaching in the local vfw hall, church basement, or recreation center. but did this hurt us in the long run?
you have all heard this one! when your speaking to someone who is a non martial artist and mention the name tang soo do! they look kind of puzzled, and the reply is allmost allways....Tang Soo Do? is that like tae kwon do?
heres my question!
#1. how did tae kwon do become a house hold name here in the united states?
#2. Tang soo do is now becomming more known to the non martial artist, but what do you think is needed to make tang soo do the most populiar martial art in america?
this should be fun! lets here your opinions!
:asian: 
Master Dave


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## Galvatron (Jul 25, 2003)

So long as the ATA exists, nothing will ever replace TKD as the most popular style in the U.S.
You can't compete with the ATA marketing machine.


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## Shinzu (Jul 28, 2003)

tae kwon do i feel gained alot of popularity from the olympics.  it is a household name and i dont know if its name can ever be replaced.

on the other hand.. as far TSD becoming the most popular art in america.  i dont think you need fancy flips or gimicks.  just keep doing what we are doing.  teaching because we love it, teach it for the right reasons, and teach it truthfully.

the rest will follow.


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## TallAdam85 (Aug 2, 2003)

well it just seems that more people come from korea and come over here and start teaching TKD plus I think there are more Tkd schools then TSD schools also TKD has there own magazine and touraments  that is free addvertising for them
just my ideas


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## Shinzu (Aug 3, 2003)

it is true that TKD is more popular, but does that make it better?  in my opinion it all depends on who is instructing you.  im sure TSD has their share of "micky mouse" instructors.

whatever the case may be... everything starts at the beginning.

in the end the true will be left standing... or defeat everyone who is not.


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## Ma_Kuiwu (Sep 14, 2003)

I dont see the need to market TSD, or to try and make it a household nema. To me I enjoy the elitist feel to belonging to the styles that I do. 

Personally, as much as I enjoy the arts and want to share them with others, I dont want to have everyone in the world becoming a better fighter, it takes the edge off of my advantage.

I think that the ones true to their art are found by the right people, and those who want to have black belts for the sake of having it, to be a badass, or for whatever reason other than the love of their art will find students that fit their vision as well.


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## tsd (Jun 2, 2007)

master dave said:


> #1. how did tae kwon do become a house hold name here in the united states?
> #2. Tang soo do is now becomming more known to the non martial artist, but what do you think is needed to make tang soo do the most populiar martial art in america?


 
#1 Marketting, prolific studios in gyms,strip malls, etc......For the working parent convieniece of class time and location is everything.  And Marketting to parents re: the benefits to children is very effective.

#2.  Why do we want it to be the most popular?  My Instructor always said to me....always ask yourself."What will benefit the Art".  I don't know that being the most popular martial art will do that, but I think if more people know the benefits of Tang Soo Do, it will definetely benefit the art.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 2, 2007)

I say there needs to be a TSD action/martial-arts movie hero on the scene. Celebrity always creates more awareness. 


Or a TSD fighter in videogames.

Or both.


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## tsd (Jun 3, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> I say there needs to be a TSD action/martial-arts movie hero on the scene. Celebrity always creates more awareness.
> 
> 
> Or a TSD fighter in videogames.
> ...


 
How about a Tang Soo Do Heroine?


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 3, 2007)

tsd said:


> How about a Tang Soo Do Heroine?




Either or; preferably both. We need to overshadow TKD in the consciousness of the American spectator.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Jun 5, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> I say there needs to be a TSD action/martial-arts movie hero on the scene. Celebrity always creates more awareness.





JT_the_Ninja said:


> Or a TSD fighter in videogames.
> 
> Or both.


 
JT,
How about "CHUCK NORRIS"? Chuck Norris was (as KJN Hwang Kee referred to him) Tang Soo Do's GOLDEN CHILD, as he was at the time that he made it big, the only Moo Duk Kwan member that made it big and stayed in Tang Soo Do. All of the others at that time were making the change from the Moo Duk Kwan to the Kookiwan. 

When Chuck Norris tested for his 4th Dan here in Michigan he tested along side of my instructor, KJN C.I. Kim (for 6th Dan), Dale Drouillard (for 4th Dan) and KJN James Saffold ( for 1st Dan), among others. 

He went on to become one of the most popular martial artists to make it in the movies, and is to this day; a great martial practitioner!!! 


_As for the question presented by Master Dave, being the most popular, or the most widely practiced system know to man..._

Tang Soo Do never set out to accomplish these goals. We have as stated, always worked to build strong and steady with the highest quality, regardless of the volume. 

Another instructor and I had some words with each other a couple of years ago. He boasted; I have over 1,000 students, you only have 25...

I responded, that isn't a problem for me. You are the McDonalds of our community, serving pour quality to 1,000 students. I am the Ruth Chris Steak House. Each of my students is a work of art.


This is how it should be. I would rather maintain a smaller number of students and be proud of each one than house 1,000 students that I can't manage effectively, and who don't have a clue about anything more than making out their monthly check...

Tang Soo Do is big in certain pockets of the USA. Just like any other system, there are good schools and there are poor schools. It is up to each instructor to guide his/her students down the right path and over time if enough of us do our part, Tang Soo Do will continue to grow and prosper.
Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil,


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## exile (Jun 5, 2007)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> As for the question presented by Master Dave, being the most popular, or the most widely practiced system know to man...Tang Soo Do never set out to accomplish these goals. We have as stated, always worked to build strong and steady with the highest quality, regardless of the volume.



No truer words, as they say. Believe me, volume means _nothing_. For every Lambourghini produced, there are probably a million econoboxes on the road. How many `David's did Michaelangelo carve&#8212;and how many cheap plastic renditions of the `David' are there? Volume means nothing, so far as excellence is concerned. 

Be _*glad*_ you're not an Olympic sport, with a McDojang on every other corner, and powerful central controlling organizations that have systematically vandalized your history, attempted to purge your art of its self-defense content,  and  and turned it into an acrobatic curiosity. You've no idea how many of us practitioners of TKD, monotonously described as the most popular, most widely practiced, highest-profile martial art in the world,  wish we could trade places with you!


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## Chizikunbo (Jun 5, 2007)

exile said:


> No truer words, as they say. Believe me, volume means _nothing_. For every Lambourghini produced, there are probably a million econoboxes on the road. How many `David's did Michaelangelo carveand how many cheap plastic renditions of the `David' are there? Volume means nothing, so far as excellence is concerned.
> 
> Be _*glad*_ you're not an Olympic sport, with a McDojang on every other corner, and powerful central controlling organizations that have systematically vandalized your history, attempted to purge your art of its self-defense content,  and  and turned it into an acrobatic curiosity. You've no idea how many of us practitioners of TKD, monotonously described as the most popular, most widely practiced, highest-profile martial art in the world,  wish we could trade places with you!


You got it! I agree 100%....


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## stephentsd (Jun 6, 2007)

I don't think anything can be done to shift Tae Kwon Do being the most famous. Here in Korea, this really tears my heart out seeing so much TKD schools, theres at least 2 in every single building, there are 3 in the building that i work and train at, including our own school. You have to go back all the way to the unifying of the Kwans to make Tae Kwon Do, one of the Grandmaster's here told me that because Hwang Kee refused to give up Moo Duk Kwan to the government, the Korean government threatened to kill his family if he did not agree and this grandmaster along with Grandmaster Kang UK Lee, where body guards to his family. History of Moo Duk Kwan doesnt include this does it?!

So as long as you've got the Korean government pushing Tae Kwon Do down the throat of everybody in Korea, everyman in Korea at some point HAS to do TKD training because its taught compulsory in the army and every man has to go in the army unless they have health problems, so there are going to be so many TKD masters.

Then theres the fact TKD is part of the olympics, whilst the korean governemnt continue with forcing TKD to everybody, having TKD as an Olympic sport we will never be able to over take them. All we can do is keep on training keep on teaching, if only people realised the power of TSD, the importance of proper technique using hip twist and body power in techniques to get superior power, if only people in korea new about Tang Soo Do, but many few do, when people do know of TSD and know you train and teach TSD the amount of respect you get is truely shocking, one guy would not leave me alone until he bought me a drink. 

I like every other Tang Soo Do'ist am very passionate about my style, it's in my mind body and spirit and it pains me to see TKD which are our children in martial art's terms, over take us as most populour.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 6, 2007)

Master Jay: Hah. Yeah, well do you ever hear him talk about TSD? No, as far as I know, he dropped the TSD name as soon as he became famous, if not before. What I was talking about was someone who'd become famous as "That TSD martial-arts star," not just as "that martial-arts star who does TSD in his spare time."

And yeah, I'm thoroughly glad TSD isn't a sport. It's a martial art. Big difference, and why I'm always so critical of TKD. In a sport, you train to beat your next opponent. In a martial art, you train to improve yourself. One is a profession, the other a way of life. I'm also grateful I don't train at a McDojang, although I'm certain there are some "TSD" ones out there. Maybe even within the ITF. I'm not asking that every street corner have a TSD dojang, just that it get more recognition as the martial art that modern (read: non-traditional) TKD flat out is _not_.


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## exile (Jun 6, 2007)

stephentsd said:


> I like every other Tang Soo Do'ist am very p]assionate about my style, it's in my mind body and spirit and it pains me to see TKD which are our children in martial art's terms, over take us as most populour.



I think you've missed the point of the past several posts, S. Why does the poplularity, or otherwise, of TSD affect you in the least? How much skin off your nose is it whether TKD, Sanda or Sumo wrestling is `most popular' among MAs? If Bach is your favorite composer, does it matter one little bit to your enjoyment of Bach that the B-Minor Mass is played on the radio fewer times in a decade than some mediocre top-40 jingle is in a month? What possible harm does it do you, or any TSD practitioner, to be practicing an art that is `less popular' than some other? McDonald's (`Billions and billions served') is more poplular than The French Laundry in Napa, and a meal at the former can cost about a hundredth of the cost of a meal at the latter, reflecting the difference in quality; do you think patrons of the The French Laundry worry that vastly more people eat at McDonald's? What are we talking about here?

As Master Penfil pointed out, the issue is quality; what difference does quantity make? TKD is more popular because of the ROK's Olympic ambitions; so far as I'm concerned, the best thing that could happen to TKD would be to lose its Olympic status and get out from under the WTF/KKW. TKD's `poplularity' is a by-product of the same factors which earn it such contempt from people who have no idea of its CQ, hard fighting aspect, suppressed over decades in the march to the Big Show. As I posted earlier, if you really appreciate the versatility and effectiveness of your art, be glad you _aren't_ as `popular' as TKD. I just can't understand why it makes such a difference to you&#8212;isn't the art itself _enough??_.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 6, 2007)

stephentsd said:


> I don't think anything can be done to shift Tae Kwon Do being the most famous. Here in Korea, this really tears my heart out seeing so much TKD schools, theres at least 2 in every single building, there are 3 in the building that i work and train at, including our own school. You have to go back all the way to the unifying of the Kwans to make Tae Kwon Do, one of the Grandmaster's here told me that because Hwang Kee refused to give up Moo Duk Kwan to the government, the Korean government threatened to kill his family if he did not agree and this grandmaster along with Grandmaster Kang UK Lee, where body guards to his family. History of Moo Duk Kwan doesnt include this does it?!
> 
> So as long as you've got the Korean government pushing Tae Kwon Do down the throat of everybody in Korea, everyman in Korea at some point HAS to do TKD training because its taught compulsory in the army and every man has to go in the army unless they have health problems, so there are going to be so many TKD masters.
> 
> ...


 

Another perspective...I have traveled all over the penninsula and I can say that though TKD is most definately the most popular and wide spread style....It is easy to find other styles here as well.  In Kunsan, you even have to go out of your way to find a TKD Dojang, but I have seen many Hapkido, TSD, Tai Chi, and even Yoga Dojangs.  In Jeonju, Hapkido is by far the most popular.  Busan has a pretty good variety and Songtan (the area outside Osan AB) has a little bit of everything.  In fact, in Songtan, nothing is more popular than anything else.


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## stephentsd (Jun 6, 2007)

Exile, the thing that bothers me is when i say to people i train in Tang Soo Do out here in Korea and they laugh because they think your saying sweet and sour pork because in korean thats Tang Soo Yuk!!


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## exile (Jun 6, 2007)

stephentsd said:


> Exile, the thing that bothers me is when i say to people i train in Tang Soo Do out here in Korea and they laugh because they think your saying sweet and sour pork because in korean thats Tang Soo Yuk!!



Ah, well, now, that's a different issue altogether!


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 6, 2007)

stephentsd said:


> Exile, the thing that bothers me is when i say to people i train in Tang Soo Do out here in Korea and they laugh because they think your saying sweet and sour pork because in korean thats Tang Soo Yuk!!



Now that's pretty funny.


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## stephentsd (Jun 6, 2007)

I know! What's funny is my friend who teaches English here, tells the kids if they don't behave he'll "do some Tang Soo Do on you" and they laugh, you know why because they think he's saying he'll throw some sweet and sour pork on them!!! Also Soo Bahk Do, well Soo Bahk is watermelon in Korea!!


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## Callandor (Jun 7, 2007)

exile said:


> .... Why does the poplularity, or otherwise, of TSD affect you in the least? ... If Bach is your favorite composer, does it matter one little bit to your enjoyment of Bach that the B-Minor Mass is played on the radio fewer times in a decade than some mediocre top-40 jingle is in a month? What possible harm does it do you, or any TSD practitioner, to be practicing an art that is `less popular' than some other? McDonald's (`Billions and billions served') is more poplular than The French Laundry in Napa, and a meal at the former can cost about a hundredth of the cost of a meal at the latter...
> 
> As Master Penfil pointed out, the issue is quality; ... TKD's `poplularity' is a by-product of the same factors which earn it such contempt from people who have no idea of its CQ, hard fighting aspect, ... be glad you _aren't_ as `popular' as TKD. I just can't understand why it makes such a difference to youisn't the art itself _enough??_.



I should give exile + rep but I have to spread it around first. So here it is +++++.


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## exile (Jun 7, 2007)

stephentsd said:


> I know! What's funny is my friend who teaches English here, tells the kids if they don't behave he'll "do some Tang Soo Do on you" and they laugh, you know why because they think he's saying he'll throw some sweet and sour pork on them!!! Also Soo Bahk Do, well Soo Bahk is watermelon in Korea!!



Sweet and sour pork... watermelon... and to think that some people say that learning MAs is no picnic! :lol: (well, _I_ thought it was funny...)



Callandor said:


> I should give exile + rep but I have to spread it around first. So here it is +++++.



Thanks, C., but it's really the kind thought that countsmuch appreciated!


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Jun 27, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Master Jay: Hah. Yeah, well do you ever hear him talk about TSD? No, as far as I know, he dropped the TSD name as soon as he became famous, if not before. What I was talking about was someone who'd become famous as "That TSD martial-arts star," not just as "that martial-arts star who does TSD in his spare time."
> 
> And yeah, I'm thoroughly glad TSD isn't a sport. It's a martial art. Big difference, and why I'm always so critical of TKD. In a sport, you train to beat your next opponent. In a martial art, you train to improve yourself. One is a profession, the other a way of life. I'm also grateful I don't train at a McDojang, although I'm certain there are some "TSD" ones out there. Maybe even within the ITF. I'm not asking that every street corner have a TSD dojang, just that it get more recognition as the martial art that modern (read: non-traditional) TKD flat out is _not_.


 

JT,
You are showing your age now...

I guess that you aren't old enough to remember when Chuck Norris became a star...

At that time, everyone knew that he was a Tang Soo Do practitioner...

Oh and by the way,for you other guys; 
I happen to love *"Sweet and Sour Pork"*!!!


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

PS- JT, I am most likely going to be teaching a seminar in your city in September. Are you interested in attending?


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 28, 2007)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> PS- JT, I am most likely going to be teaching a seminar in your city in September. Are you interested in attending?



I'd be interested, but I'd probably lack the time. Monday through Friday I work 8:30-5:00, Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays I have TSD class in the evenings, Saturday I have TSD class from 9:30-11:30 AM, after which I'm usually exhausted, and on Sundays there's church. Not much free time.


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## Chizikunbo (Jun 28, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> I'd be interested, but I'd probably lack the time. Monday through Friday I work 8:30-5:00, Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays I have TSD class in the evenings, Saturday I have TSD class from 9:30-11:30 AM, after which I'm usually exhausted, and on Sundays there's church. Not much free time.


JT, if you can MAKE time...You would learn much from Master Penfil's seminar...


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 29, 2007)

Chizikunbo said:


> JT, if you can MAKE time...You would learn much from Master Penfil's seminar...



If I could _make_ time, I'd be a rich man. I'm only human, though, so the time I have is the time I'm given.


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## Chizikunbo (Jun 29, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> If I could _make_ time, I'd be a rich man. I'm only human, though, so the time I have is the time I'm given.



I understand sir ;-) All I am trying to say is that it would be very beneficial ;-)


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