# Do you hold back when sparring if...



## Lynne (May 30, 2007)

you are a male and your partner is a female?  Do you only hold back if you are sparring a newbie (orange belt)?  Do you hold back with any lower ranks, age, size, sex, etc.?


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## michaeledward (May 30, 2007)

Yes. 

Absolutely. 

I am not very experienced as sparring. I have been working at this portion of kenpo for only a year or so.  But, I am now a black belt, and one of the oldest persons attending the regular sparring class. 

I see my role in sparring class as a 'trainer'. I allow those in class, usually much younger and lower rank, to develop their skills on me. 

Last week, I was working with a junior brown belt. This young lady would throw a jab with her front hand, and follow through, dropping it across her body and down. After recognizing this pattern, I told her that every time she does this, I am going to jab her head, right over her dropped guard. This eventually got her following her jab with an outward block.  My point was not to hit her, but to help her appreciate where she creates openings for her opposition. 

I attempt to find a similar lesson for all the persons I spar with; giving them an opportunity to learn. 



Now, we occassionally have an adult sparring class. And in these situations, I mostly just try to stay alive.


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## Lynne (May 30, 2007)

Thanks for the reply, Michael.

I think you have a great attitude.  For the most part, this is what I see in my Dojang, more experienced members teaching younger members how to spar.  There are exceptions though.

I've observed the fighting to be much more aggressive in the sparring classes.  Most orange belts don't attend them, though a few do.


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## Blindside (May 30, 2007)

Lynne said:


> you are a male and your partner is a female? Do you only hold back if you are sparring a newbie (orange belt)? Do you hold back with any lower ranks, age, size, sex, etc.?


 
As an instructor my job is to push the student not obliterate them.  I wouldn't learn anything by steamrolling them and they wouldn't learn either.  Age, rank, sex don't matter, if I am better, I hold back.    

When someone is my equal we have fun and all the tricks come out.  When someone is my better I just try to give them something to remember me by. 

Lamont


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## Blindside (May 30, 2007)

Lynne said:


> I've observed the fighting to be much more aggressive in the sparring classes. Most orange belts don't attend them, though a few do.


 
How do you fight outside of the sparring class?

Lamont


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## Lynne (May 30, 2007)

Thanks, Lamont.

I'm keeping all this in mind  for the day I get to spar.

A few times I've gotten to do one-on-one kicking with green, red, or black belts (I'm a white belt - three weeks training so far) and they were so helpful, constantly giving me tips, and keeping me encouraged (to keep moving and kicking).

It's good to know that doesn't change.

I guess it would depend on the school though, whether they had camaraderie.  Luckily, ours is like one big family.


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## Kacey (May 30, 2007)

Lynne said:


> you are a male and your partner is a female?  Do you only hold back if you are sparring a newbie (orange belt)?  Do you hold back with any lower ranks, age, size, sex, etc.?



Yes, to all of the above.  I spar individuals - not belts.   Also, the pace of the match is set by the junior, and as some of them become less junior they discover how much the seniors have been holding back after being repeatedly kicked in the elbow!  :lol:


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## Lynne (May 30, 2007)

Blindside said:


> How do you fight outside of the sparring class?
> 
> Lamont


 
Only black club belt members or black belts are allowed to take sparring classes. (So, a motivated white belt could take sparring classes if they wanted to.)

Twice a month, we have sparring as part of our regular class curriculum.  So, two weeks out of a month we do sparring during class (so if one attends twice a week, that's 4 classes of sparring).

In sparring, people don their sparring gear, partner up and do (one-minute rounds -  I think it's one minute).  They do several rotations, usually three.  Last Saturday, we did 5 or 6...thought I'd die.

I'm a white belt, so I can only do one-on-one kicking (exchanges, no contact).  During one-on-one we (white belts, yellow belts, and upper ranks without sparring gear) are really working on speed, moving in a circle and exchanging kicks as fast as we can.


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## Lynne (May 30, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Yes, to all of the above. I spar individuals - not belts. Also, the pace of the match is set by the junior, and as some of them become less junior they discover how much the seniors have been holding back after being repeatedly kicked in the elbow! :lol:


 
I can imagine...ouch.  A humbling experience for sure.

I've seen one black belt male knock two women flat on their backs.  One of them might have been knocked out.  She was rather dazed and was saying, "What?  wha...?"  He'd punched both of them in the side of their head, snapping their heads pretty hard.  Honestly, I hope my daughter or myself doesn't end up sparring with him.  My daughter is in black belt club so it's inevitable she'll get paired up with him sometime.  Really, I was surprised he didn't hold back a bit more.  It wasn't a competition.

I really enjoy the one-on-one kicking if I get paired up with a green belt or above. I get lots of tips and encouragement, and corrections, too.


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## jks9199 (May 30, 2007)

Lynne said:


> you are a male and your partner is a female?  Do you only hold back if you are sparring a newbie (orange belt)?  Do you hold back with any lower ranks, age, size, sex, etc.?


I adjust my sparring to my opponent.  When I fight a student, I shape what I do to what I want them to work on, and what they need to learn.  When I fight someone closer to my level -- then we can work with each other more.  But, I adjust based on skill, not gender.

An classmate of mine from years ago recently paid me a very high complement; she said she liked to spar me when we were students together because I was one of the few guys who would just fight her, and not take it easy on her because she was a girl.


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## Blindside (May 30, 2007)

Lynne said:


> I've seen one black belt male knock two women flat on their backs. One of them might have been knocked out. She was rather dazed and was saying, "What? wha...?" He'd punched both of them in the side of their head, snapping their heads pretty hard. Honestly, I hope my daughter or myself doesn't end up sparring with him. My daughter is in black belt club so it's inevitable she'll get paired up with him sometime. Really, I was surprised he didn't hold back a bit more. It wasn't a competition.


 
I'm not saying this is what was going on, without seeing it I have no idea, but sometimes "pushing someone" involves more than teaching technique;  it involves spirit and willpower.  You push the student until they are tired, hurt them so they are fighting through pain, so the student has to draw on those deep reserves.  Pop them so they have to fight through getting rocked.  This will look intense, it will look ugly, and at the end it will probably look pretty one sided.  We do this to our brown/black belt students, and it gets done to us.  So the guy may be a jerk, or maybe he was teaching a lesson, or maybe he was a jerk who was teaching a lesson.   But this isn't every class, unless the guy/gal is ramping toward their black belt test.

Lamont


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## CoryKS (May 30, 2007)

Depends.  We have one lady at our school that can throw a kick that will leave you gasping for air.  For her, I do not hold back.  We have another who basically puts on her gear, goes fetal, and makes a sound like "eeeeeeeeeee".  Still haven't figured out what to do with her yet, except dance around until they call for partner change.


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## Lynne (May 30, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I adjust my sparring to my opponent. When I fight a student, I shape what I do to what I want them to work on, and what they need to learn. When I fight someone closer to my level -- then we can work with each other more. But, I adjust based on skill, not gender.
> 
> An classmate of mine from years ago recently paid me a very high complement; she said she liked to spar me when we were students together because I was one of the few guys who would just fight her, and not take it easy on her because she was a girl.


It's so great to hear that higher belts/instructors make such an effort to teach the lower ranks.  I always wonder if you're making a big sacrifice.

It's true, most women are not going to want an instructor/higher ranking student to make an exception because we're female.  We are in the school for the same reason as anyone else:  to develop our potential to the fullest.  And like you said, jks, and most of the others here, you adjust to what your student can do and what you want them to learn.  I can definitely see that with the higher belts in my Dojang.

I will be honest with you and say that most of the women in my Dojang are afraid to go to the sparring classes.  But, and that's a big but, they are orange belts, just 6-8 months training.  They are allowed to attend sparring classes but I don't know any who are.  They have sparring gear and spar in class.  The sparring classes are intense and I'm sure they're afraid that the belts lower than black won't be able to hold back or won't hold back.  We have one undisciplined guy and that's all it takes to scare.


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## Lynne (May 30, 2007)

Blindside said:


> I'm not saying this is what was going on, without seeing it I have no idea, but sometimes "pushing someone" involves more than teaching technique; it involves spirit and willpower. You push the student until they are tired, hurt them so they are fighting through pain, so the student has to draw on those deep reserves. Pop them so they have to fight through getting rocked. This will look intense, it will look ugly, and at the end it will probably look pretty one sided. We do this to our brown/black belt students, and it gets done to us. So the guy may be a jerk, or maybe he was teaching a lesson, or maybe he was a jerk who was teaching a lesson.  But this isn't every class, unless the guy/gal is ramping toward their black belt test.
> 
> Lamont


Hey Lamont,

Thank you...that gives me a bit more perspective, actually a lot.  Being pushed is good


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## Blindside (May 30, 2007)

Lynne said:


> It's so great to hear that higher belts/instructors make such an effort to teach the lower ranks. I always wonder if you're making a big sacrifice.


 
It isn't a sacrifice, besides you can develop weak parts of your game on lower ranks, skills that aren't ready for peers.  Also beginners pull wacky stuff that advanced student will never do, the beginner doesn't know better that it is "wrong" and it will land it.  

Lamont


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## Lynne (May 30, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> Depends. We have one lady at our school that can throw a kick that will leave you gasping for air. For her, I do not hold back. We have another who basically puts on her gear, goes fetal, and makes a sound like "eeeeeeeeeee". Still haven't figured out what to do with her yet, except dance around until they call for partner change.


I can tell you what's going on with the "eeeeeeeeeeeeee."  She's afraid to spar.  She's afraid of getting hurt. And she might not like sparring.  I have found a lot of women just don't like it. (They do it and they try hard regardless but they aren't planning on competing.)  Could be true for men as well, I don't know.

So, is she not kicking at all?  What about blocking?  Are you just chasing her around and around the ring?  What do the instructors do?  The instructors in our school wouldn't let anyone get away with not trying and trying hard.  I'm not sure what Master R would do.  He'd probably have them drop and do 60 squat thrusts to wake them up.

She probably needs someone to teach her how to spar.  Isn't that your job since you're a higher belt  ?  I assume you do one-on-one kicking in class?  I'm just a newbie, but we are learning loads of basic sparring skills through the one-on-one.  I have to keep moving in a circular fashion, I have to keep kicking, I have to try and chase down my opponent, and I have to bounce and switch my feet, all as fast I can with integrity of form.  It is tiring and it is hard after a few rounds.

I realize there could the emotional thing going on.  Do you feel she might start crying if you tell her to block or you'll do X?


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## Lynne (May 30, 2007)

Blindside said:


> It isn't a sacrifice, besides you can develop weak parts of your game on lower ranks, skills that aren't ready for peers. Also beginners pull wacky stuff that advanced student will never do, the beginner doesn't know better that it is "wrong" and it will land it.
> 
> Lamont


Oh, I see.

Wacky stuff.  Like the teenage orange belt who kept hitting his green belt opponent in the backside with a roundhouse kick  .  I was sitting in the viewing area watching this kid's first sparring class.   I don't know the rules for sparring but when I saw this kid kicking his opponent in the butt cheek, I thought, "What the devil?  Are you supposed to do that?"  It just didn't look right!  My daughter informed that no, you aren't supposed to strike a person on the back of the body, butt cheek or otherwise.

In this case, I imagine the butt-cheek-kicks were more annoying than painful though. *snicker*


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## JT_the_Ninja (May 30, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> Yes.
> 
> Absolutely.
> 
> ...




Same here, _especially_ because I'm a 2nd dan, and pretty much everyone else at the dojang is below me in rank (though often not in height!). I never go so easy that I don't attack, though, so long as I have the breath. The stronger my opponent fights back, the more I come back, though I always keep control. It's too easy to hurt someone in sparring; the skill is in controlling your techniques so you don't, while still demonstrating good technique.


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## Yossarian (May 30, 2007)

I think holding back because your opponent is female would be an insult. I usually let my opponent dictate the pace of the sparring, if they are a lower belt I will try and give them a few tips and tricks they can use and point out holes in their defence.  You will find higher belts are usually very good at controlling thier strikes so dont worry about sparring them. You are very unlikely to get hurt, the worst you will get will be the odd bump or bruise.  Its also very good experience to spar hard contact, you quickly get used to being hit.


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## Nomad (May 30, 2007)

Lynne said:


> you are a male and your partner is a female? Do you only hold back if you are sparring a newbie (orange belt)? Do you hold back with any lower ranks, age, size, sex, etc.?


 
Absolutely.  In class, sparring is a training exercise.  Those who for one reason or another (size, aggression, time in training, etc.) are a fair distance below my current level I "take it easy" on.  Just as my seniors take it easy on me... 

If I get a reasonable response from my training partner, I will increase the intensity a little to push them.

Sparring "full out" in such situations turns it from a learning session into a lesson in humility.  And yes, I have seen the latter judiciously applied on occasion when someone's head was getting a little too big and they were starting to think they were top of the heap.  The lesson comes across pretty quickly.  

Without a tangible reason to do otherwise (as above), a session of me going full out on a much lower belt results in their being intimidated and discouraged and only serves to feed my own ego (which is plenty big enough without that kind of sustenance).

There is an art to modifying your intensity to your opponent so you're going just a little bit harder and faster than they are, and this is where they tend to grow and get better.

Now, going against the same partner in a tournament is a little different.  There I want to control the match as much as possible, but am still not particularly interested in humiliating someone.  Occasionally, someone I thought was an easy mark has surprised me in the ring.


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## Callandor (May 30, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Do you hold back when sparring if ... you are a male and your partner is a female?  Do you only hold back if you are sparring a newbie (orange belt)?  Do you hold back with any lower ranks, age, size, sex, etc.?



I am male and I believe that it is the senior females in our school who are holding back on me  - they could kick me really hard if they wanted to. Seriously, I hold back on weaker sparring partners (new, children, whatever) but don't go all out on the rest either.


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## Lynne (May 31, 2007)

Callandor said:


> I am male and I believe that it is the senior females in our school who are holding back on me  - they could kick me really hard if they wanted to. Seriously, I hold back on weaker sparring partners (new, children, whatever) but don't go all out on the rest either.


We have some very good women at our school as well.  I'm sure they could put a knot on anyone's head if they wanted to.   They're great teachers.


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## Tez3 (May 31, 2007)

Only the children in our club do TSD, the adults do MMA and as I'm the only women in the club training at the moment it gets a bit rough lol! I've been knocked out, choked out and a couple of weeks ago had my front tooth knocked out ( a crown as the real one had been knocked out ) and to be honest it's great fun! We go 60-80% full on when sparring, so we get bloody noses and bruises, in comps it's 110% so we do go easy in the club! We go easy on beginners but more often than not we have to curb their enthuisasm as they can get carried away! 
I used to do karate point sparring and never would I go back to it, it's like playing now. I realise though MMA isn't for everyone lol!


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## stone_dragone (May 31, 2007)

I never hold back on someone based on gender.  I gear each sparring session to the person and the day and the time of day.


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## Lynne (Jun 1, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Only the children in our club do TSD, the adults do MMA and as I'm the only women in the club training at the moment it gets a bit rough lol! I've been knocked out, choked out and a couple of weeks ago had my front tooth knocked out ( a crown as the real one had been knocked out ) and to be honest it's great fun! We go 60-80% full on when sparring, so we get bloody noses and bruises, in comps it's 110% so we do go easy in the club! We go easy on beginners but more often than not we have to curb their enthuisasm as they can get carried away!
> I used to do karate point sparring and never would I go back to it, it's like playing now. I realise though MMA isn't for everyone lol!


Master Byrne taught an MMA clinic at our school awhile back.  He stressed the importance of learning grappling techniques.  I think he said most fights end up on the ground.  I took Judo for just a short while and I'll never forget what my Sensei said, "Someone who knows Karate might hurt me, but if I get in close, it's over with."

I think it would be so hard for beginners to have any control.  When we practice wrist grips and one-step sparring, there is no contact except for blocking.  I didn't realize the other day that I was lightly chopping my partner on the jaw.  I never knew until my daughter told me.  I felt like such an ***.

The only time we are told to kick someone in one-on-one kicking (exchange kicking we do as white and yellow belts or people who don't have their sparring gear yet) is if our partner accidentally kicks us.  We're told to kick them back.  I think the idea is to wake them up so they gain some control.

So, you get literal blood on your belts, eh?  Our sparring classes aren't like yours though people often need ice for this or that.  Now, competition is another matter of course.

Your classes sound like fun but you're right, they aren't for everyone!


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## Tez3 (Jun 1, 2007)

The worst thing about our sparring is people who come in thinking they can fight, ( I have to say it's always a man). They don't realise, or don't want to realise that they have to learn an awful lot of techniques to be able to hold your own in an MMA fight let alone win. The standup is karate/Muay Thai/TKD using wharever moves work, we have people with a wide variety of experience so we continually learn new moves. I imagine any of you here who do a traditional stand up style would feel at home with the standup yet some come in thinking it's just a matter of throwing a few punches and kicks which is easy "coz they've seen it on the tv ot I've had street fights you know!" they have the same attitude to the floor work well it's just rolling around cuddling each other isn't it! When I've done traditional martial arts people like that tend not to join, though I think sometimes there can still be an ego problem there.
 The best thing is that's it's like a game of physical chess, your mind moving as quick as you body (hopefully! at my age there tends to be a bit of a time lapse lol). When we spar we have to adjust what we do to what the other person is trying to do, if they are good at standup try to get them down, and vice versa. We don't intentionally go hard on each other, and I don't think it's many harder than a traditional full contact karate club, it's just more contact than most perhaps. I have heard that old style Judo clubs are/were pretty full on though!


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## stickarts (Jun 1, 2007)

I adjust to my sparring partners level, Man or Woman,  and mirror whatever level that they want to take it to.


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## Lynne (Jun 1, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> The worst thing about our sparring is people who come in thinking they can fight, ( I have to say it's always a man). They don't realise, or don't want to realise that they have to learn an awful lot of techniques to be able to hold your own in an MMA fight let alone win. The standup is karate/Muay Thai/TKD using wharever moves work, we have people with a wide variety of experience so we continually learn new moves. I imagine any of you here who do a traditional stand up style would feel at home with the standup yet some come in thinking it's just a matter of throwing a few punches and kicks which is easy "coz they've seen it on the tv ot I've had street fights you know!" they have the same attitude to the floor work well it's just rolling around cuddling each other isn't it! When I've done traditional martial arts people like that tend not to join, though I think sometimes there can still be an ego problem there.
> The best thing is that's it's like a game of physical chess, your mind moving as quick as you body (hopefully! at my age there tends to be a bit of a time lapse lol). When we spar we have to adjust what we do to what the other person is trying to do, if they are good at standup try to get them down, and vice versa. We don't intentionally go hard on each other, and I don't think it's many harder than a traditional full contact karate club, it's just more contact than most perhaps. I have heard that old style Judo clubs are/were pretty full on though!


Wow, you make MMA sound like fun!  So much to learn.  Such a challenge.

From the little I experienced in Judo, grappling is pretty rough...you lose endurance very quickly for one thing. It takes a great explosion of strength to do some of those moves and then you're done, lol.

We began sparring immediately in Judo.  The first day, I was throwing, grabbing and knocking shins.  It was extremely rough and I wasn't really cut out for it.  The last straw was being thrown into the air and my knees striking together as I hit the ground.  It took over 6 months for the pain to go away.

The mental challenge you speak of sounds incredible.  I would think what you do would be addictive.

For self-defense, standing artists could certainly use some grappling techniques.


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## Lynne (Jun 1, 2007)

stickarts said:


> I adjust to my sparring partners level, Man or Woman, and mirror whatever level that they want to take it to.


Is it gratifying for you, as an instructor/higher belt, when people push themselves?  Do they ever do something and surprise themselves, have that look of, "I've done it now!"


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## Blindside (Jun 1, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Is it gratifying for you, as an instructor/higher belt, when people push themselves? Do they ever do something and surprise themselves, have that look of, "I've done it now!"


 
I was a green belt and for the first time managed to kick my instructor in the head, jaw actually, and not much control on it.  He stopped, took out his mouth piece and said: Have you always been able to do that?
Me: Um, no.
Him: Nice Kick.

That time, and the time when I hit him with an exact copy of the closing technique that is his "goto" technique, I could tell he was thinking "hey, the kid is getting it."  Proud moments for a teacher, prouder moments for the student.

Lamont


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 1, 2007)

That reminds me of the time, during a gup test, when there was an odd number of testers, and I was without a partner for the sparring part. Master Kim turned toward my kyo sa nim (now my sa bom nim) and said, "You fight him!" 

That was a fun match. He spent the whole minute telling me to keep attacking him. I survived, somehow.


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## Tez3 (Jun 2, 2007)

We had a grading for the children, we'd done the line work, three step etc and it was time for sparring. One of the kids is a boy 14 and rather tall so we asked David one of our pro fighters who was in waiting for the next seesion, to spar with him to be fairer. David is brilliant with the children, he adjusts his sparring to theirs and isn't bothered at all of course by being kicked and punched. The sparring was going well until David got the lad into a clinch, I shouted to Daniel, 'knees' so he did a knee strike catching David right where he didn't want to be caught! Poor David dropped and Daniel looked horrified! he'd just dropped a pro MMA fighter! We, of course roared with laughter ( we are very cruel lol!) Daniel when Daniel received his green belt afterwards he was still shaking bless him. David now wears his groin guard always.


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## fireman00 (Jun 2, 2007)

always!  when I spare against women and anyone younger then 18 in the dojang I use much lighter contact then when against guys over 18.


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## Kacey (Jun 2, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Is it gratifying for you, as an instructor/higher belt, when people push themselves?  Do they ever do something and surprise themselves, have that look of, "I've done it now!"


Good Lord, yes!  There is nothing more satisfying, as an instructor - for me, at least - than to have a student who surpasses you.  To have them recognize it for themselves, and realize how far they've come - awesome!


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## agemechanic03 (Jun 2, 2007)

Of course like everyone else has said, take it easy on the younger aged and ranked, but give it all you got to the same as you and above. Just like one of my friends and I do, let the younger (aged or ranked) set the pace. Myself, even tho I am just a white belt, I always send the upper guys a run for there money. But I've also done 2 other styles too.


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## stickarts (Jun 2, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Is it gratifying for you, as an instructor/higher belt, when people push themselves? Do they ever do something and surprise themselves, have that look of, "I've done it now!"


 
Absolutely! for those that need confidence, I lead them to develop skills and help them to find little openings I will leave. Others respond better when you push them and they give it their all to make it to the next level.
Some need to be subtly led while others need to be pushed.
Some need to bring out the tiger while others need to develop patience.
Sparring can be the most frustrating, rewarding, and gratifying part of training. Sparring my fight teacher were some of the best times I have had in my career.


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