# Playing the Race Card



## Big Don (Jan 27, 2008)

This is disgusting.
That many people were not smart enough to take a fixed rate mortgage and instead gambled and lost with Adjustable Rate Mortgages is sad, but, to claim it is racist is just stupid.
I am really getting sick of hearing of the "Sub Prime Crisis" Yes, some people will lose their homes, however, that is their fault for not reading the fine print. A house is the single biggest investment most people make and to not ensure you fully understand what you are agreeing to in signing a mortgage is foolish to the point of abject stupidity. This has nothing, repeat, NOTHING to do with race, or dishonesty as so many are claiming.
What this is, is an example of why you should NEVER buy anything you cannot afford, nor should you ever sign any document without reading and having a full understanding of what every word means.
That some people allegedly  left furniture and other possessions behind marks them as stupid, it says nothing about lenders or anyone else.
That some people have to blame everything on racism is pathetic. I'm pretty sure people of every race were stupid enough to take the hit from th e "sub prime crisis", to claim your race was targeted is disgusting.


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## Kacey (Jan 27, 2008)

Compared to the population of the country, minorities are disproportionately represented at the lower income levels, for many reasons, some racially motivated, some not - there are many factors, including education, location, religion, culture (could be based on ethnic background, neighborhood, etc.), and yes, in some cases, racial prejudice, that affect income.  

Poorer people, as a group, tend to be less educated, and less knowledgeable about things that the rest of us may take for granted - understanding of mortgages being one of them.  Too many people were caught by unscrupulous lenders who made massive commissions from qualifying those who really didn't qualify; too many people were, likewise, caught by unscrupulous lenders who convinced them to borrow more than the value of their home, because prices were rising with (at the time) no end in sight.  And too many buyers were caught up in the joy of being able to own a home that they couldn't have owned before, and didn't read the fine print.

Some of it probably was racist; a good part of it, I think, was not - but there are proportionately more minorities who are poor than non-minorities, and since the working poor were those most affected by this situation, therefore more minorities were caught by the problems.

Many people will cry racism (or some other prejudicial concept) when a negative event affects a large portion of a group - but that doesn't make it so.  I'm not saying there wasn't some racism involved - there almost certainly was - but I don't think that was the primary issue.

As far as the idea that these people should have known better - perhaps.  But who would have taught them?  I grew up in a middle class family; my parents owned a home for 6 or 7 years and then sold it again when I was 14.  They never discussed finances with me as a child, and I had little idea, as a child or teen, what was involved in the finances of running a home.  I learned - as too many people do - the hard way, that savings are necessary, and so is knowing who to ask for advice; I was lucky in that my uncle is quite good at such things, and, once asked, quite willing to help me - so was one of my friends, who was a financial planner.  Without them, I would be much worse off than I am today.  Too many people grow up without such resources - I didn't have them (or know I had them, in the case of my uncle) until I was in my late 20s - and I had people available to help me.  

In the case of many of those who lost their homes in this mess, who would they ask?  Their friends and family, by and large, come from the same circumstances that they did - and lacked the same knowledge.  They went to professionals, and trusted what those professionals told them.  Should these people have asked for help and advice from someone else before signing a mortgage?  Probably - but who would they ask?  They were relying, perhaps unwisely, on the mortgage broker, the _professional_, who loaned them the money - because they placed their trust in those professionals.  Now, some of those professionals were, no doubt, unethical money grubbers; some were, no doubt, short-sighted in loaning people more than they could afford in the long-term; some were well-meaning people who didn't expect the downturn in the economy that cost so many people their jobs; and some, yes - some probably were motivated by racial prejudice to take what they could get from whomever they felt they could, and chose to prey on those whom they felt were least likely to know the difference.

No doubt, some of the people caught in this were players, who knew what they were getting into and risked it anyway - but, IMHO, most of them weren't.  They were hard-working people who saw a chance to reach their dream, and took it, only to see it snatched away from them, because they trusted the wrong people.  To blame them for not knowing better is useless.  This is a societal issue, and society is to blame for not better protecting its members - it is not the fault of those who were taken advantage of by those who should have known better.


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## ChadWarner (Jan 27, 2008)

Compared to the population of the country, minorities are disproportionately represented at the lower income levels, for many reasons, some racially motivated, some not - there are many factors, including education, location, religion, culture (could be based on ethnic background, neighborhood, etc.), and yes, in some cases, racial prejudice, that affect income. 

BS.  To everything you just said.   A lower income doesn't mean anything except you are lazy.   I manage a place and see lazy people stay in the same place while hard working folks elevate themselves.   

Doesn't matter what color someone is-  Lazy people create drama and brown nose consistently-  and are the first to cry foul if someone actually makes them work harder than they want.   Those are the cry babies whinning about their arms coming due.  How about get 2 jobs and re fi?  Just too hard isn't it?  BOOOOO HOOOOO


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## jks9199 (Jan 27, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Many people will cry racism (or some other prejudicial concept) when a negative event affects a large portion of a group - but that doesn't make it so.  I'm not saying there wasn't some racism involved - there almost certainly was - but I don't think that was the primary issue.


Too often, the cry that something is "racist" or "sexist" or is the result of prejudice when something is apparently effecting one group more than another -- even if it's clear that they are effected more for neutral reasons, or through their own fault.  


> As far as the idea that these people should have known better - perhaps.  But who would have taught them?  I grew up in a middle class family; my parents owned a home for 6 or 7 years and then sold it again when I was 14.  They never discussed finances with me as a child, and I had little idea, as a child or teen, what was involved in the finances of running a home.  I learned - as too many people do - the hard way, that savings are necessary, and so is knowing who to ask for advice; I was lucky in that my uncle is quite good at such things, and, once asked, quite willing to help me - so was one of my friends, who was a financial planner.  Without them, I would be much worse off than I am today.  Too many people grow up without such resources - I didn't have them (or know I had them, in the case of my uncle) until I was in my late 20s - and I had people available to help me.
> 
> In the case of many of those who lost their homes in this mess, who would they ask?  Their friends and family, by and large, come from the same circumstances that they did - and lacked the same knowledge.  They went to professionals, and trusted what those professionals told them.  Should these people have asked for help and advice from someone else before signing a mortgage?  Probably - but who would they ask?  They were relying, perhaps unwisely, on the mortgage broker, the _professional_, who loaned them the money - because they placed their trust in those professionals.  Now, some of those professionals were, no doubt, unethical money grubbers; some were, no doubt, short-sighted in loaning people more than they could afford in the long-term; some were well-meaning people who didn't expect the downturn in the economy that cost so many people their jobs; and some, yes - some probably were motivated by racial prejudice to take what they could get from whomever they felt they could, and chose to prey on those whom they felt were least likely to know the difference.



It's true -- lots of people who you would think know better are pretty clueless on mortgages and loans in general.  And I blame parents as much as I blame the schools; kids shouldn't be insulated from the realities of daily economics.  Parents bear the responsibility of educating their children to be money-wise; to know the difference between a good use for loaned money (homes, cars, etc) and going into silly debt (the mythical $10000 taco, for example, from the kid who got a credit card weeks into his freshman year, and still hasn't paid it off by the 20 year reunion).  And I do put some responsibility on lenders and their agents; assuming they are making good loans in the first place, they need to take the time to be sure that the borrowers understand the terms of the loans.  I've currently got a good, but not great, fixed-rate mortgage.  I'm not looking to refinance, unless I can get a fixed-rate mortgage with a significantly better interest rate; the minimal advantage isn't worth it.  (And I don't even want to get into the issue of "apparent" money from boom-cycle home price inflation that's falling out now.)


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 27, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> BS.  To everything you just said.   A lower income doesn't mean anything except you are lazy.



Hmm. I work 75+ hours a week running a web design and hosting company, doing consulting and photography, as well as some graphic work on the 'side'. I maintain and operate 3 discussion communities, over 100 other sites, and have 30+ currently in development.
My income is low. 
I know several others working just as hard, in similar situations. Also with low incomes.

Good to know it has nothing to do with the economy, market conditions, slow paying and deadbeat clients, or their ilk and we're just a bunch of lazy slackers.


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## jks9199 (Jan 27, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> BS.  To everything you just said.   A lower income doesn't mean anything except you are lazy.   I manage a place and see lazy people stay in the same place while hard working folks elevate themselves.
> 
> Doesn't matter what color someone is-  Lazy people create drama and brown nose consistently-  and are the first to cry foul if someone actually makes them work harder than they want.   Those are the cry babies whinning about their arms coming due.  How about get 2 jobs and re fi?  Just too hard isn't it?  BOOOOO HOOOOO



There's a whole lot more to a person's income status than being lazy.  Second jobs or working spouses aren't always practical -- or end up costing more than you make!  Transport fees, child care costs, and other expenses can quickly eat up the "profits" of a part-time position.

In many parts of the US, the economy is in transition, and jobs are disappearing.  In other places, jobs that traditionally paid quite well are being undercut by outsourcing or by illegal immigrant labor.  For example, I know people in construction who refuse to use illegal immigrants and are always undercut by the companies who do; it's hard to compete when you're paying your legal workers $500 or more a day... and the next guy is paying his guys $100 under the table.  

Many of the people being hit by ARMs or balloon payments now made plans based on poor financial education, or just poor planning.  I know people who bought houses based on their pay, including over-time, and then found that the overtime dried up, for example.  Or who simply assumed they could refinance or otherwise dodge the balloon payment...


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 27, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> BS. To everything you just said. A lower income doesn't mean anything except you are lazy. I manage a place and see lazy people stay in the same place while hard working folks elevate themselves.


 
I'd respond but I'm just too lazy to care


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## ChadWarner (Jan 27, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Hmm. I work 75+ hours a week running a web design and hosting company, doing consulting and photography, as well as some graphic work on the 'side'. I maintain and operate 3 discussion communities, over 100 other sites, and have 30+ currently in development.
> My income is low.
> I know several others working just as hard, in similar situations. Also with low incomes.
> 
> Good to know it has nothing to do with the economy, market conditions, slow paying and deadbeat clients, or their ilk and we're just a bunch of lazy slackers.


 
Is it so low you are now losing your home?  I think not...  I take it you like what you do and it pays the bills... I work 58 hours a week, went back to college and take classes four nights a week and teach my art 2 hours a week.  Now add homework and test preperation...  Stop your whinning and man up.


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## ChadWarner (Jan 27, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> There's a whole lot more to a person's income status than being lazy. Second jobs or working spouses aren't always practical -- or end up costing more than you make! Transport fees, child care costs, and other expenses can quickly eat up the "profits" of a part-time position.
> 
> In many parts of the US, the economy is in transition, and jobs are disappearing. In other places, jobs that traditionally paid quite well are being undercut by outsourcing or by illegal immigrant labor. For example, I know people in construction who refuse to use illegal immigrants and are always undercut by the companies who do; it's hard to compete when you're paying your legal workers $500 or more a day... and the next guy is paying his guys $100 under the table.
> 
> Many of the people being hit by ARMs or balloon payments now made plans based on poor financial education, or just poor planning. I know people who bought houses based on their pay, including over-time, and then found that the overtime dried up, for example. Or who simply assumed they could refinance or otherwise dodge the balloon payment...


 
I am for competitive fairnes, however they are able to pick up the phone and call ICE.  I strongly disagree with your first few lines... they are excuses.  "When the going gets tuff the tuff get going."  +++Senator Blutarski+++


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 27, 2008)

My income doesn't allow me to own and maintain a home. Would be nice if it did. 
I'd love to go back to school. No time and no money. 
Stating facts isn't whining, but claiming that everyone who is poor is so due to laziness is at best irresponsible, and at worst, a sign of a rather limited and narrow world view. 

Are alot of folks lazy? Yup, no argument there. I ran into that all the time when I worked for others. Does the race card get played alot? Yup, sure does.  So does the gender card.

Is the person who is disabled and unemployable lazy? Is the person who was fired from a 60,000/yr job who is only able to find work at half their previous earnings lazy?  What about the family who's main wage earner is on a forced extended tour in Iraq, who left a good paying job and has to live on army wages now? Or is a returned soldier now missing a limb or 3? Are they just lazy?  What about the family who built a business only to see it go under due to a Walmart moving in, or extended road work, or a bad Christmas? 

I know, I know, get 3 McJobs, give up seeing the family, and "man up".


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## jks9199 (Jan 27, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> I am for competitive fairnes, however they are able to pick up the phone and call ICE.  I strongly disagree with your first few lines... they are excuses.  "When the going gets tuff the tuff get going."  +++Senator Blutarski+++


It seems to me that you're living in a very simplistic world.  It's a fact that, in many cases, a second income, whether a second job or working spouse, often doesn't bring in enough to really make a difference, once the costs related to the job (second car, more fuel, child care costs, etc.) are compared against the income.  Other times, the simple reality is that there aren't but so many hours in a day, and some jobs require more time commitment than others.  In some parts of the country, there are fewer jobs available, as well.  

Just as it's too simplistic to say that the current sub-prime mortgage collapse is somehow racist, it's too simplistic to say that people who are having trouble making ends meet are simply lazy.

Oh... and, FYI, it's not a simple matter of calling ICE.  I work closely with ICE agents (I've even been responsible for several deportations); even focusing on those illegal aliens who have committed offenses not tied directly to being illegal (in other words, skipping the fraudulent IDs, working without a permit, even driving without a license/insurance offenses), there's more than enough work to keep the entire agency busy.  It just ain't that easy...


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## ChadWarner (Jan 27, 2008)

Your points are both vallid...  But extended service in Iraq is from an irresponsible and lazy government.  There is accountability in the right to vote.  If the power mongers in office are bringing financial hardships to your family vote them away... no one does because they remain in power.  In order to serve in Iraq you had to sign up for the military life... If the tired old men in office want to go around and destablize other nations the military man is called upon to do their bidding.   It is their job.

How come it is okay to overextend yourself?  If you get fired from a 60k job that is needed to support your family how come they were flying without a net or a back up plan?  Life happens.  Failing to plan is planning to fail.  I got divorced earlier this year so you really cannot tell me about loss of income (not to mention shelling out even more dough for attys)  because it stung.  My pocket that is-  I know not to live above my means.  My house is a cracker box, my car is used  and I don't have Armani suits and the like because it is above my means.  It is what I get for not finishing college... So now I get to struggle.  My bad.  

You can go back to school... If I can anyone can.  It is tuff.  The future is bleak without it though  so I made the choice to torture myself now rather than later.  Those are the options you get when you do something stupid like not finishing your education.

No one told anyone it is okay to have children you cannot pay for.   

I will give you guys this... some people have an advantage over others by way of birthrights that include large somes of money.  The rest of us just have to slug it out in the salt mines.  

Now to add insult to injury... In the process of the stuff I have mentioned some  jerk ran into me at work and broke one of my body parts I need to function in my job.  I missed a lot of work and workers comp insurance paid less then half of what I missed out on.  Now minus money I used out of my savings just paying bills on top of money not earned...  I was dealt a sour hand- so what, man up!


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## Ray (Jan 27, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Poorer people, as a group, tend to be less educated,...


Or less educated people tend to be poorer?


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 27, 2008)

Big Don said:


> This is disgusting.
> That many people were not smart enough to take a fixed rate mortgage and instead gambled and lost with Adjustable Rate Mortgages is sad, but, to claim it is racist is just stupid.
> I am really getting sick of hearing of the "Sub Prime Crisis" Yes, some people will lose their homes, however, that is their fault for not reading the fine print. A house is the single biggest investment most people make and to not ensure you fully understand what you are agreeing to in signing a mortgage is foolish to the point of abject stupidity. This has nothing, repeat, NOTHING to do with race, or dishonesty as so many are claiming.
> What this is, is an example of why you should NEVER buy anything you cannot afford, nor should you ever sign any document without reading and having a full understanding of what every word means.
> ...




Well here is my test. 

If those in trouble were white males, would the ACLU take the case for discrimination? This is not anyone's test but my own. 

I have problems with the race card being played. I was accused of being racist while in college and technically being involved as a student with the university. I refused to approve the constitution of the National Associate of Black Accountants. There was already an Accounting club but it was mostly white males, so I saw a need for this club/organization. The problem was that they wrote a constitution that stated one had to be a Black or Hispanic minority to be a member, and to be Black and or Female to be the president. I told them I could not approve this. I even re-wrote it for them in more generic terms including the preference for minorities. The group insisted the National level for the Club insisted the Constitution could not be modified. I stated I could not approve it and not be liable. The deadline went by and they complained to Minority Affairs Department. They showed to the Student Government meeting and I was there as well in the representative of Legal Affairs. I invited them to sit at the table with me as I knew many of them. When other showed up they were all upset by the level of tension in the room. And with me in the room as well. This had been going on for days until our meeting took place. The Minority Affairs group did not know I was the accused racist. I moved to ignore the agenda and to bring the issue up first. The President agreed and the others consented. They Minority Affairs group wanted to know which person was the racist who disapproved the Black Club on the basis of them being Black. I said, I did not approve them for other reasons. I then asked them if they wou0dl be upset if I stated a club would only accept Caucasians and only males could be the president? They were all upset and asked who approved such a charter/constitution. I said no one. I then read to them the proposed/insisted upon NABA charter. I stated I could not in good faith approve it as it was. If I replaced Black for White and Female for Male I got the above outrage condition. They then asked what could be done to fix the situation. I stated the woman who started all this had to apologize to me in writing. I would approve the constitution I wrote for them. I had to insist that the women who started all this could not be an officer but she could be a member. The Minority Affairs group agreed that I was being fair. It went down that that way with the exception that she never apologized.  The fellow Black students who were upset with me before this did apologize to me for not knowing the whole story and reacting to it. I accepted their statements and told them it was a bad situation and that I would hope that in the future they ask me for the data. 

The issue was that 6 month later when there was an actual issue of race at the university, no one took it seriously as they were all concerned over the last false alarm.  In the end it was resolved, and in the manner it should have been, with the student involved being escorted off campus. 


As to the issue of bank loans targeting those minorities I would have a problem understanding the claim. I could see where ads on the radio and TV could lead people to call the lenders for a loan, but I know of no local company that did cold calling for loans. they may have advertised, but I would expect that those of minority status and non-minority status they called the lender themselves. Now of course the lender may have guided them into one of the zero down money back in their hands loans on a house they were stretching to get into. But I have a problem as those involved should have either taken someone with them to help them or to have been better at reading the details. I have a friend, and yes he is white, but he is barely HS educated and he took me with him at the age of 40 to buy his first new car. He took me along to ask questions for him. To make sure he was not confused too much. If a grown man with kids has the courage to admit there is an area he has a weakness in then I think we should all look at ourselves and see if there is not something that we could not do better with someone who has the tribal knowledge in question.


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## Kacey (Jan 27, 2008)

Ray said:


> Or less educated people tend to be poorer?



Same theory, I think.  They are definitely related - and often causal.  Education provides more options for employment.  Adults with lower levels of education, as a group, earn less than adults with similar backgrounds but greater levels of education.  While children of poor parents can get a good education and earn more than their parents, it is less likely that a child from a poor family will graduate high school, never mind go to college than a child from a middle class or upper class family; without an education, the cycle begins again.

One of the issues we deal with at the school where I teach (over half of our population is living below the poverty line) is poor vocabulary.  Children of less educated parents start school with a significantly smaller vocabulary than children of more educated parents; vocabulary is key for learning to read, learning concepts - learning in general.  Children with smaller vocabularies start school behind peers whose parents have better educations, and many spend their entire academic career struggling to catch up; those struggles make it more likely that they will drop out - starting the cycle anew.

Another issue we deal with is that, by middle school, many of these kids have reached a point academically where their parents can no longer help them with their homework - the students have gone beyond their parents' abilities.  As supportive as most of these parents are, they are often unable to help their students with their schoolwork - which is why we have so many before and after school tutoring opportunities available, but many of the kids can't come early or stay late, as they have to go home to care for younger siblings while their parents are still at work; the second job that pays the food bill (since the first job covers the rent) requires child care that cannot be afforded - but the students' educations suffer for it.

There are many factors that affect income - education, or a lack thereof, is certainly one of them.  Are there people who _choose_ to be lazy, and therefore poor?  Certainly.  But is _everyone_ who is poor, or even the majority of the poor, poor because they are lazy?  I don't believe so - I have met too many poor families who are working their butts off to live paycheck to paycheck, to stay off Welfare, off food stamps, and off the street - and I've seen too many who lose the battle to illness or accident that wipes out what little savings they may have amassed; I have 2 students right now who are homeless, because the illness of one parent (cancer in one case, MS in the other) prevents that parent from working, and they were evicted - they live in family-oriented shelters, but the medical bills prevent them from saving enough to move out.


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## jks9199 (Jan 27, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> Your points are both vallid...  But extended service in Iraq is from an irresponsible and lazy government.  There is accountability in the right to vote.  If the power mongers in office are bringing financial hardships to your family vote them away... no one does because they remain in power.  In order to serve in Iraq you had to sign up for the military life... If the tired old men in office want to go around and destablize other nations the military man is called upon to do their bidding.   It is their job.
> 
> How come it is okay to overextend yourself?  If you get fired from a 60k job that is needed to support your family how come they were flying without a net or a back up plan?  Life happens.  Failing to plan is planning to fail.  I got divorced earlier this year so you really cannot tell me about loss of income (not to mention shelling out even more dough for attys)  because it stung.  My pocket that is-  I know not to live above my means.  My house is a cracker box, my car is used  and I don't have Armani suits and the like because it is above my means.  It is what I get for not finishing college... So now I get to struggle.  My bad.
> ...
> I was dealt a sour hand- so what, man up!



I don't think anyone here has suggested that it was OK to overextend one's finances.  But they (and I) did take specific exception to your simplistic assumption that anyone having financial troubles is just too lazy to get out of trouble, or to afford a house.

Ignorance can be part of it.  Few people are willing to really admit that they don't know or understand something -- especially the complicated legalese of mortgage paperwork. 

You're also ignoring the very real complications that volunteer service to our nation has thrown on many of our reservist's families.  When they signed up in the reserves or National Guard years ago, activation was relatively rare, and typically close to home.  Suddenly, they're activated for a year... and they're receiving military pay only, since many employers will NOT make up the difference.

And then there's just plain bad luck.  You've experienced this yourself.  You were lucky; you were able to maintain your style of living.  But... what if someone is simply unable to return to work for a while?  What about someone who has been living within their means, working various projects for a defense contractor (common in my area), and the company gets bought out?  Or, a change in Congress yanks funding from the projects?  They're suddenly unemployed, through no fault of their own.  Ordinarily, they'd know when one project is wrapping up, and line up another -- but this time, they got little or no notice!  (I worked as a proprietary guard at one defense contractor, and they decided to outsource the guard force; had the company not looked out for us, the contractor company could easily have hired NONE of us, or required us to pay for training, and they did pay those of us hired much less than we'd been making...)

None of this is suggesting that the borrowers are not responsible for handling their finances wisely -- but many people don't know nearly as much as they ought to about finances.  And it is certainly everyone's responsibility to learn.  But you can't automatically dismiss someone who's in over their head financially as being lazy or irresponsible or ignorant, either.  Anymore than you can say that the current problems are the result of making loans to less ideal candidates (many have handled their loans responsibly!), or that it's targeting blacks, Hispanics, or the "lower classes."

It just ain't that simple.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 27, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> Now to add insult to injury... In the process of the stuff I have mentioned some  jerk ran into me at work and broke one of my body parts I need to function in my job.  I missed a lot of work and workers comp insurance paid less then half of what I missed out on.  Now minus money I used out of my savings just paying bills on top of money not earned...  I was dealt a sour hand- so what, man up!



Please... workmans comp is for losers who wont pony up and work thru the pain... be a MAN.

:lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao:


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## Cryozombie (Jan 27, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> And then there's just plain bad luck.  You've experienced this yourself.  You were lucky; you were able to maintain your style of living.



I know right?  I must have just been plain lazy when the second income coming into my house came from someone who DIED... and here I didnt run out and take a thrid job to cover my costs.  What the hell was I thinking?


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## jks9199 (Jan 27, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> I know right?  I must have just been plain lazy when the second income coming into my house came from someone who DIED... and here I didnt run out and take a thrid job to cover my costs.  What the hell was I thinking?


What... you voluntarily chose to have someone in your household who let a pesky inconvenience like being dead keep them from continuing to contribute?! :jaw-dropping::sadsong: 

No wonder you had to work two jobs.  Put that lazy stiff to work!

I remember a skit on *In Living Color* where the whole idea was about the number of jobs the family members held down...


(No offense intended... but sarcasm was fully intended!)


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## AceHBK (Jan 28, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'd respond but I'm just too lazy to care



:lfao::lfao:  ^^ That right there put tears in my eyes!

Wooooooo!

Ok let me make this disclaimer *just b/c i am a black MA, it does not mean I speak for the whole black community.  I just speak for myself.*  (sorry Jim Brown)

Everyone has made some excellent points.  I tend to agree with Kacey, Bob and others.  I will say I disagree with Chad but that is a good thing b/c we all can't agree and despite how flawed I think your view is, I must consider that many people feel the same way as you so I should try and understand where you are coming from.

The whole issue of of the mortgage industry and sub prime issue is not all race motivated but race does have some part to play.  Instead of placing blame with one party I think there more than enough to be placed equally to all parties.

Yes many of those affected were low income individuals. (I dont want to use the word "poor" b/c your not poor if you have a house ....people in 3rd world countries are poor...just my opinion)  Many of these people many not be very educated and therefore don't always make the best decisions and people who they could go to for advice are may not be educated enough to give them the proper advice (as Kacey pointed out).  So in turn it is a bad decision based on other bad decisions because they didn't know any better.  Now with that, it is their fault for not trying to find credible help from knowledgeable people.  We all know you should read before you sign and now the ramifications of what is going on.  They have to take responsibility for what they put themselves in.

Now on the other hand lenders knew good and well what they were doing and were money motivated to get as people as they could to sign these new papers and get these adjustable mortgages.  These people trusted them and in turn they got screwed.  Im sure some thought they were doing good and didn't know the market would turn the way it did while others flat out didn't care.  At some point you hope people would let morals kick in and say to themselves "i know this wouldn't be a good deal for Mr. & Mrs. Jackson" and not talk someone into something but of course when money is involved that doesn't always happen.

Kacey makes a lot of very good points about the social surroundings of the people that got screwed over.  Not saying they are free from blame but you can see how a lot of this went down.  I don't think the race card should be used b/c there where many races that were affected by this so thereofre  race really can't be put into.  I hate it when race gets into it b/c then it makes it seem like all black people are dumb, can';t read, etc. and that isn't the case.  This whole issue more than anything shows how IMPORTANT education is.  So much comes into play with this in education that it isn't even funny.

JKS...you are very correct on the ignorance part.  Many people are ignorant and are too full of pride and what not to think they don't need to listen to others and make their own decision and don't think about the consequences.  Now that something has gone wrong they want to go run and complain and everything else and im sorry they blame no one but them self.  I feel more sorry for the older adult who thinks they are doing the right thing and got screwed than the young person who is too lazy to do some research.


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## Empty Hands (Jan 28, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> I could see where ads on the radio and TV could lead people to call the lenders for a loan, but I know of no local company that did cold calling for loans.



Maybe not in your area, but I got hundreds of the damned things over the past few years.  I still got them even as the market started to implode!


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## AceHBK (Jan 28, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Maybe not in your area, but I got hundreds of the damned things over the past few years.  I still got them even as the market started to implode!



Me too and I don't even have a mortgage...house been paid off for years.


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## AceHBK (Jan 28, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> I have problems with the race card being played. I was accused of being racist while in college and technically being involved as a student with the university. I refused to approve the constitution of the National Associate of Black Accountants. There was already an Accounting club but it was mostly white males, so I saw a need for this club/organization. The problem was that they wrote a constitution that stated one had to be a Black or Hispanic minority to be a member, and to be Black and or Female to be the president. I told them I could not approve this. I even re-wrote it for them in more generic terms including the preference for minorities. The group insisted the National level for the Club insisted the Constitution could not be modified. I stated I could not approve it and not be liable. The deadline went by and they complained to Minority Affairs Department. They showed to the Student Government meeting and I was there as well in the representative of Legal Affairs. I invited them to sit at the table with me as I knew many of them. When other showed up they were all upset by the level of tension in the room. And with me in the room as well. This had been going on for days until our meeting took place. The Minority Affairs group did not know I was the accused racist. I moved to ignore the agenda and to bring the issue up first. The President agreed and the others consented. They Minority Affairs group wanted to know which person was the racist who disapproved the Black Club on the basis of them being Black. I said, I did not approve them for other reasons. I then asked them if they wou0dl be upset if I stated a club would only accept Caucasians and only males could be the president? They were all upset and asked who approved such a charter/constitution. I said no one. I then read to them the proposed/insisted upon NABA charter. I stated I could not in good faith approve it as it was. If I replaced Black for White and Female for Male I got the above outrage condition. They then asked what could be done to fix the situation. I stated the woman who started all this had to apologize to me in writing. I would approve the constitution I wrote for them. I had to insist that the women who started all this could not be an officer but she could be a member. The Minority Affairs group agreed that I was being fair. It went down that that way with the exception that she never apologized.  The fellow Black students who were upset with me before this did apologize to me for not knowing the whole story and reacting to it. I accepted their statements and told them it was a bad situation and that I would hope that in the future they ask me for the data.
> 
> The issue was that 6 month later when there was an actual issue of race at the university, no one took it seriously as they were all concerned over the last false alarm.  In the end it was resolved, and in the manner it should have been, with the student involved being escorted off campus.



I think you were clearly right in your situation and glad you stuck up for yourself and for you felt was right.  Many would have just caved in.  When something like that happens it makes it harder for real racism problems to be taken seriously.


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## Big Don (Jan 28, 2008)

The history of the Race Card is not a pretty one. OJ Simpson's attorneys played it in his murder trial, to great effect. Al Sharpton played it in the Tawana Brawley fraud. Not too long ago, Wesley Snipes played it in an attempt to move his tax evasion trial. 
Too many people running about screaming racism where none exists makes actual cases of racism harder to discern. This is no different, really, than reporting fires or crimes where none exist.


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## AceHBK (Jan 28, 2008)

Big Don said:


> The history of the Race Card is not a pretty one. OJ Simpson's attorneys played it in his murder trial, to great effect. Al Sharpton played it in the Tawana Brawley fraud. Not too long ago, Wesley Snipes played it in an attempt to move his tax evasion trial.
> Too many people running about screaming racism where none exists makes actual cases of racism harder to discern. This is no different, really, than reporting fires or crimes where none exist.



I agree with you Big Don.  Many people use it when they screw up and are looking for a scape goat instead of taking responsibility for their actions.

U have to admit somewhere that certain class of people were targeted and then look at that demographic to see what it is and then ask lenders why did they target them.

As I said before is this whole thing about the sub prime all and only about racism?  Of course not.  Does racism play some part in it?  Yes  
I think attention focused on better the educational system as well as getting important info to consumers who may not know how to get it would be better served.  We can focus on who spilled the milk but our time would be focused more efficiently on how to prevent the milk from getting spilled again.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 28, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> There's a whole lot more to a person's income status than being lazy.  *Second jobs or working spouses aren't always practical -- or end up costing more than you make!  Transport fees, child care costs, and other expenses can quickly eat up the "profits" of a part-time position.*
> 
> *In many parts of the US, the economy is in transition, and jobs are disappearing.*  In other places, jobs that traditionally paid quite well are being undercut by outsourcing or by illegal immigrant labor.  For example, I know people in construction who refuse to use illegal immigrants and are always undercut by the companies who do; *it's hard to compete when you're paying your legal workers $500 or more a day... and the next guy is paying his guys $100 under the table.  *
> 
> Many of the people being hit by ARMs or balloon payments now made plans based on poor financial education, or just poor planning.  *I know people who bought houses based on their pay, including over-time, and then found that the overtime dried up, for example.  Or who simply assumed they could refinance or otherwise dodge the balloon payment...*



You are spot on, on all points.


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## ChadWarner (Jan 28, 2008)

AceHBK said:


> :lfao::lfao: ^^ That right there put tears in my eyes!
> 
> Wooooooo!
> 
> ...


 
I am okay with that.   My views are not going to win me a popularity contest, on the other hand my gf is black and her family worked themselves through college from very humble beginnings.  The mother divoreced the father, raised 2 kids and put herself through college all the way to achieve her masters degree.  I have heard many anecdotes about when there was not enough food mom went hungry.  So those who struggle do get rewarded.  They are all college educated now and doing very well for themselves.  After seeing and hearing about their lives I just can't see where many people can complain.   Life is hard and I make no qualms about it- change is even more difficult and I must give much respect to those who strive and struggle for a better place in society.  

Mom- she does what needs to be done and it has carried over to her children.  Her new (well 13 years now) man is nigerian and he owns and operates a limo service which employs his son.  They work 14 hours a day.  Here is a man that has his masters in aero engineering, had his hand loped off while working his way through college yet struggled to make his life better.  Whenever I am feeling lazy I just look at their lives and realize I have nothing to complain about.   They are a great inspiration.  I was the one my gf brought home for dinner... A little scary but they greated me with open arms and basically asked when I was going back to finish my degree.  I told them I work a lot... "only 58 hours?"  "boy you lazy"  all good natured poking but I got the message.


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## MJS (Jan 28, 2008)

Big Don said:


> This is disgusting.
> That many people were not smart enough to take a fixed rate mortgage and instead gambled and lost with Adjustable Rate Mortgages is sad, but, to claim it is racist is just stupid.
> I am really getting sick of hearing of the "Sub Prime Crisis" Yes, some people will lose their homes, however, that is their fault for not reading the fine print. A house is the single biggest investment most people make and to not ensure you fully understand what you are agreeing to in signing a mortgage is foolish to the point of abject stupidity. This has nothing, repeat, NOTHING to do with race, or dishonesty as so many are claiming.
> What this is, is an example of why you should NEVER buy anything you cannot afford, nor should you ever sign any document without reading and having a full understanding of what every word means.
> ...


 
IMHO, people are way too quick to pass the blame onto someone else, rather than taking it and admitting that they messed up. My wife and I were first time homebuyers when we bought our condo. Sure, there are many people out there that'll suggest something, fully knowing that its not the best option for you. However, we did our homework and made sure that we got ourselves into the proper mortgage. 

Race has nothing to do with this. It comes down to simple common sense. Additionally, don't take on more than you can handle. People tend to forget that when they're going thru the approval process, the payments, or what you've been approved for, does not take into consideration your lifestyle. You want to enjoy life, not be a prisoner in your own home because you can't afford to do anything fun, because all your cash is going towards the mortgage.


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## Big Don (Jan 28, 2008)

MJS said:


> IMHO, people are way too quick to pass the blame onto someone else, rather than taking it and admitting that they messed up. My wife and I were first time homebuyers when we bought our condo. Sure, there are many people out there that'll suggest something, fully knowing that its not the best option for you. However, we did our homework and made sure that we got ourselves into the proper mortgage.
> 
> Race has nothing to do with this. It comes down to simple common sense. Additionally, don't take on more than you can handle. People tend to forget that when they're going thru the approval process, the payments, or what you've been approved for, does not take into consideration your lifestyle. You want to enjoy life, not be a prisoner in your own home because you can't afford to do anything fun, because all your cash is going towards the mortgage.


 It can't be said too often: Common Sense is not common at all


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 29, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Maybe not in your area, but I got hundreds of the damned things over the past few years.  I still got them even as the market started to implode!




Thanks for the correction.


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## shesulsa (Jan 29, 2008)

MJS said:


> Race has nothing to do with this. It comes down to simple common sense. Additionally, don't take on more than you can handle. People tend to forget that when they're going thru the approval process, the payments, or what you've been approved for, does not take into consideration your lifestyle. You want to enjoy life, not be a prisoner in your own home because you can't afford to do anything fun, because all your cash is going towards the mortgage.



I think creative financing has also been falsely marketed as a real solution to people who thought they otherwise wouldn't be able to afford a home.  The end result is ... they thought right in the first place.  EVERYONE is buying into this - people who make a decent living but have little to no savings regardless of color, gender or creed.  It's the main reason the real estate market is plummeting.  

I think ChadWarner has worked things out for himself and met some great people who managed to make things work out for them ... I've met a few too. But I've met some who couldn't and it was not for lack of work, lack of jobs, lack of effort.

Have a nice day.


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## crushing (Jan 29, 2008)

MJS said:


> Race has nothing to do with this. It comes down to simple common sense. Additionally, don't take on more than you can handle. People tend to forget that when they're going thru the approval process, the payments, or what you've been approved for, does not take into consideration your lifestyle. *You want to enjoy life, not be a prisoner in your own home because you can't afford to do anything fun, because all your cash is going towards the mortgage.*


 

HELOCs are for having fun, right?  If you use your home as a piggy bank is there anything you can't do or buy?  Get yourself a well deserved vacation, HDTV, newcar, X-box 360s. . ..  

The consideration of a lifestyle may show itself in the credit report.


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