# Ugh!!!!



## Don Roley

Someone please explain something to me.

Why is it that every idiot with a sword just _has_ to put a video of themselves using it on youtube?


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## Ninjamom

I think that's obvious: why make a fool of yourself at home, when with today's technology you can make a fool of yourself in front of millions at once?!?!


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## Kacey

Because he can... or so he thinks!


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## Don Roley

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7852479463569512577&q=katana

I blame the Highlander movies, and Conan. All these twerps swinging  around a sword like they were trying to turn into a helicopter.


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## Flying Crane

Don Roley said:


> Someone please explain something to me.
> 
> Why is it that every idiot with a sword just _has_ to put a video of themselves using it on youtube?


 

Strange.  It looks like for part of this clip he is using a Chinese broadsword, yet he keeps using the same technique.  If he knew anything about Chinese broadsword, he would know they aren't interchangeable.  The technique is very different.  That's just further proof of his ignorance.


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## Rich Parsons

Don Roley said:


> Someone please explain something to me.
> 
> Why is it that every idiot with a sword just _has_ to put a video of themselves using it on youtube?






Flying Crane said:


> Strange. It looks like for part of this clip he is using a Chinese broadsword, yet he keeps using the same technique. If he knew anything about Chinese broadsword, he would know they aren't interchangeable. The technique is very different. That's just further proof of his ignorance.



Actually the techniques look to be similiar to what is taught in some of the FMA's or some other Indonesian Arts. 

What I see as an issue is that the Japanese Katana and Wakizashi are light and easy to handle with one hand so the quick wrist reactions are easy to handle and not hurt yourself. I blame the really sweet design of the weapon.  (* Sarcasm guys *) 

So, if one is looking for traditional training with a weapon from the culture of its' design these videos go from just being silly or funny to taking on the issue of looking dangerous and insulting to some. 

The movies where people are twirling blades around are flashy and flashy sells. Where as simplicity is not flashy nor is it obvious and the average person has no idea what just happened as they did not "see" it.


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## Cthulhu

www.bushido.org for a good laugh.  Another guy who created his own style..."seicho jutsu".

Cthulhu


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## Flying Crane

Rich Parsons said:


> So, if one is looking for traditional training with a weapon from the culture of its' design these videos go from just being silly or funny to taking on the issue of looking dangerous and insulting to some.


 

I think this hits the nail on the head.  The weapons have a very specific type of technique to use them properly, and that takes good instruction and a lot of work to develop.  Seeing someone pick up the weapon and start spinning it around in such a silly and stupid manner, with no regard to the historical context or the proper technique for the weapon goes way beyond silly or funny.  It really is downright insulting.


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## jks9199

Rich Parsons said:


> Actually the techniques look to be similiar to what is taught in some of the FMA's or some other Indonesian Arts.
> 
> What I see as an issue is that the Japanese Katana and Wakizashi are light and easy to handle with one hand so the quick wrist reactions are easy to handle and not hurt yourself. I blame the really sweet design of the weapon.  (* Sarcasm guys *)
> 
> So, if one is looking for traditional training with a weapon from the culture of its' design these videos go from just being silly or funny to taking on the issue of looking dangerous and insulting to some.
> 
> The movies where people are twirling blades around are flashy and flashy sells. Where as simplicity is not flashy nor is it obvious and the average person has no idea what just happened as they did not "see" it.



It seems like lots of folks are out there, learning a little of this and a little of that, and then trying to apply it to something completely different.  Right now, it seems like everybody and their brother goes to a Filipino seminar, comes back with a couple of principles and tries to use 'em with everything from a pocket knife to a 10' stick...  

Some common principles can be applied, especially within a systemic approach.  The same body dynamics I teach empty hand can be used with a stick, and the same general principles can be used with a knife or sword -- but you've got to make some adjustments for the weapon.  I noticed in one of those YouTube links that a guy was doing some sort of move where he stopped the sword on his back...  Wanna bet he wasn't doing that with a live blade?  (I also think one guy is gonna give himself a haircut -- or worse -- if he ain't careful!)


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## Rich Parsons

jks9199 said:


> It seems like lots of folks are out there, learning a little of this and a little of that, and then trying to apply it to something completely different. Right now, it seems like everybody and their brother goes to a Filipino seminar, comes back with a couple of principles and tries to use 'em with everything from a pocket knife to a 10' stick...
> 
> Some common principles can be applied, especially within a systemic approach. The same body dynamics I teach empty hand can be used with a stick, and the same general principles can be used with a knife or sword -- but you've got to make some adjustments for the weapon. I noticed in one of those YouTube links that a guy was doing some sort of move where he stopped the sword on his back... Wanna bet he wasn't doing that with a live blade? (I also think one guy is gonna give himself a haircut -- or worse -- if he ain't careful!)



jks9199,

I agree the principals and concepts can be applied across ranges and weapons. The issue comes in that a person has to understand the weapon and the attributes of the weapon and be able to adjust to these. 

Yet, when there is a weapon specifically from a certain culture and or certain art, and it is not used traditionally I see like I said where people get offended. 

And yes, hair cuts and cuts in the clothes and or of their skin is what happens to many.


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## jks9199

Rich Parsons said:


> jks9199,
> 
> I agree the principals and concepts can be applied across ranges and weapons. The issue comes in that a person has to understand the weapon and the attributes of the weapon and be able to adjust to these.
> 
> Yet, when there is a weapon specifically from a certain culture and or certain art, and it is not used traditionally I see like I said where people get offended.
> 
> And yes, hair cuts and cuts in the clothes and or of their skin is what happens to many.



I agree.

I'm fortunate; the system I've trained in for 20 years contains empty hand and weapons, and the weapons are intended as an extension of the hand.  But extension doesn't mean that they're the same.  The same principles (and much of the same motion) can power a vertical fist straight punch, a strike with a short stick, a strike with medium or long stick, a stab with a knife or sword, etc.  But -- each weapon will have it's own principles to accompany the basic foundation, too.  For example, you have to know how to get the knife OUT after you've stabbed... or where you can stop a sword cut safely.

I did a couple of searches on the seicho jutsu stuff.  "Interesting" reading...  and it explains exactly why the guy is doing stuff that doesn't make sense for the weapon he's using.  I won't try to do a close paraphrase -- but the guy who founded it in Canada basically did his own mish-mash of stuff, and considers it (of course) superior to everything else.


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## Xue Sheng

Why is it every time Don Roley starts a post like this I just have to check it out? :uhyeah: 



jks9199 said:


> It seems like lots of folks are out there, learning a little of this and a little of that, and then trying to apply it to something completely different. Right now, it seems like everybody and their brother goes to a Filipino seminar, comes back with a couple of principles and tries to use 'em with everything from a pocket knife to a 10' stick...


 
Welcome to the world of CMA. There are a lot of people that go to a seminar or 2 and BANG they are now a Sifu of the style or one they made up 



Flying Crane said:


> Strange. It looks like for part of this clip he is using a Chinese broadsword, yet he keeps using the same technique. If he knew anything about Chinese broadsword, he would know they aren't interchangeable. The technique is very different. That's just further proof of his ignorance.



As Crane has basically said the Chinese Da Dao does NOT equal the Katana (please forgive me if I am using the wrong name here)?


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## Grenadier

This fellow is an attention monger, and looking at a few of his other videos, I could only bite down to stop myself from laughing.  

The way he's twirling around the katana in the same way he twirls around the dao, makes me wonder where he got the aluminum blades...



Xue Sheng said:


> Why is it every time Don Roley starts a post like this I just have to check it out? :uhyeah:


 
It's just like that giant wreck on the highway.  You know you shouldn't look at it, but it's just too fascinating some times...



> As Crane has basically said the Chinese Da Dao does NOT equal the Katana (please forgive me if I am using the wrong name here)?


 
Yes, he did, but not in a negative way.  The Dao has its own set of techniques, just as the Katana does, and the principles behind the use of one or the other are going to be different indeed, hence not being equal.  For some, the Dao will be a better choice, for others the Katana will be the better choice.


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## Xue Sheng

Grenadier said:


> Yes, he did, but not in a negative way. The Dao has its own set of techniques, just as the Katana does, and the principles behind the use of one or the other are going to be different indeed, hence not being equal. For some, the Dao will be a better choice, for others the Katana will be the better choice.


 
Agreed

I have very little experience with a katana, I have much more training with the Dao and I would have to say from what I have seen that I have not seen a Katana handled that way, although I did handle the wooden version in a similar fashion for fun once, probably why I no longer train katana. 

As to his Dao, there are a couple of moves I do not quite understand but I have only train the dao with Tai Chi and Long Fist so that may mean little.


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## pgsmith

> Why is it that every idiot with a sword just _has_ to put a video of themselves using it on youtube?


Most of it, just like this fellow's, is free advertising. 

This guy's "sword techniques" look ridiculous to anyone with even a modicum of legitimate instruction in any sword art. However, that is *not* the audience to which this is aimed. The vast majority of people in the U.S., or in any country for that matter, have only TV and movies as their sole exposure to any sort of sword work. Flashy, nifty looking stuff is what they expect. People that post videos such as the one in Mr. Roley's initial post are going to get a lot of positive feedback from the general population simply because it looks cool to them. They can probably sell a lot of DVDs or get a lot of new students for their dojo with it. Used car salesman don't only sell cars. 

I don't really understand those that get offended by it though. So it isn't real instruction. So most of the uninitiated think it is. Why should that offend you? It just makes me shake my head and laugh to myself. If those that don't know any better think that this is what I do, so be it. It has no affect on my own practice, and if someone is interested enough to ask me about it, I'll be glad to explain what real training is like. If they came and performed their little sword routine naked in my front yard, then I might be offended. If they want to fool some poor fellow into paying them money to learn their "genyoowine sword techniques of the samooreye", then it isn't my job to protect those people from themselves. Caveat emptor applies just as much, if not more so, in the martial arts as it does everywhere else. 

  Don't be offended, just amused.


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## pstarr

I disagree.  _Somebody_ has to step up and speak the truth.  One of the reasons se must now suffer things like "The Final Fu" and that kind of thing is because the real martial arts practitioners didn't step forward and speak out.  They stayed in the shadows, chuckling, knowing that what they do is genuine.

     But the public doesn't know what's real and what isn't. I think it's our obligation to let them know as best we can.


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## Don Roley

I am with pstarr. I would fight any attempt to control people like this, but I will not shy from letting people know that what he does is not up to the standards I have been trained in. And the qualifications of most of these guys are a joke.

But it is true that there are idiots out there that will follow even the most incompetent of teachers. Just look at the following web page and as you laugh, consider that the guy actually thinks he can attract people with what he shows. He would not if students stayed away.

http://s106679294.websitehome.co.uk/dvd.htm

The general public just does not know what is good and what is bad. Instead of sitting back and  laughing at these guys as they deserve, I think we should at least give people a chance to hear about the truth. We can't make them make the right choice, but we can help those that try to do the research. If they won't think, then we do not have to feel any guilt. But if we do nothing and people walk in without any knowledge, I can't help but feel a sense of responsibility.


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## Cthulhu

Wow...it looks like this guy 'learned' his technique from a book or other series of photos, with no clue as how to move between the positions displayed in the photos.

That, and he has next to no control over his blade.

Cthulhu





Don Roley said:


> I am with pstarr. I would fight any attempt to control people like this, but I will not shy from letting people know that what he does is not up to the standards I have been trained in. And the qualifications of most of these guys are a joke.
> 
> But it is true that there are idiots out there that will follow even the most incompetent of teachers. Just look at the following web page and as you laugh, consider that the guy actually thinks he can attract people with what he shows. He would not if students stayed away.
> 
> http://s106679294.websitehome.co.uk/dvd.htm
> 
> The general public just does not know what is good and what is bad. Instead of sitting back and laughing at these guys as they deserve, I think we should at least give people a chance to hear about the truth. We can't make them make the right choice, but we can help those that try to do the research. If they won't think, then we do not have to feel any guilt. But if we do nothing and people walk in without any knowledge, I can't help but feel a sense of responsibility.


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## pgsmith

> I disagree. _Somebody_ has to step up and speak the truth. One of the reasons se must now suffer things like "The Final Fu" and that kind of thing is because the real martial arts practitioners didn't step forward and speak out. They stayed in the shadows, chuckling, knowing that what they do is genuine.


Why does somebody have to step up? I don't suffer from "The Final Fu", in fact, I've no idea what it is. Never mind, I just Googled it. (See how easy research is?) That is entertainment, and has no bearing what so ever on anything that I do. For me to be upset over something as silly as "Final Fu" would be like me getting upset over "Last Samurai" because the sword fights were funny. The only reason I can figure for being upset about it is if you are worried that people will think that "Final Fu" is what you are doing. However, if you are worried what others think about your training, then you aren't training hard enough. 


> But the public doesn't know what's real and what isn't. I think it's our obligation to let them know as best we can.


Why?
The general public has _never_ really known just what it is that swordsmen actually do. You can go to Japan today, and the general public has no idea of anything other than kendo. *Why* should we take it upon ourselves to attempt to ruin the ideas of the general public, who are far happier with "Last Samurai" and "Highlander" swordsmanship than anything approaching reality.


> We can't make them make the right choice, but we can help those that try to do the research.


Don, I think you nailed it right there. Anyone that is truly interested in learning the truth will conduct their own research. It really isn't very hard to gain an understanding of reality, or to find out contact information for people that can help in any sort of research. Any that _are_ interested, I try to help as much as possible. Those that can't be bothered, I leave firmly in their fantasy world. For all of me, the general public is more than welcome to believe whatever they wish. As long as there is a core of dedicated people willing to put in the work to learn our arts, then that is really all that matters. The general public's perception of what I do is unimportant to me.

Just my opinions though!


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## pstarr

It's our obligation to speak up.  Certainly, there are those who will always choose to follow bozos like this sword-flinging character, but there are also those who are looking for authentic martial arts...and if that's all they ever see, then what?  They don't know where to look.  There's no special listing in the phone book for good and bad schools.  There's no licensing process (which is fine by me - everything the government touches turns to .....)

     But if we keep silent, the public - those who are truly interested in learning real martial arts - never hear us!  They think that that garbage is what martial arts really are!

And we know better.


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## pgsmith

While I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts on government regulation, I have to point out that you didn't answer my question ... why?

  You've said that we have an obligation to speak, and you've said that the public needs to know, but you've not explained why this is. _Why_ does the general public need to know? _Why_ does it matter if they believe sword twirling is "true" martial arts? _Why_ is it our responsibility to go out and tell them?

  Just curious as to your reasons.


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## pstarr

It's necessary because if they believe that the garbage they see is the real thing, it gives us all a black eye.  Also, people enroll in those kinds of classes thinking that they're learning real (effective) martial arts...and they're not.

     Years ago we saw the martial arts become the focus of various movie themes and even television shows...there was an explosion of interest in these disciplines and people flocked to all kinds of schools.  Some characters touted themselves as "grandmasters" of this or that - green belts promoted themselves and opened schools - and the traditionalists stayed in the shadows.  We sat back with our arms folded and chuckled to ourselves, thinking, "Those poor fools.  Wasting their time and money.  They should know better."

     But they couldn't have known better.  They could only know what they'd seen.

     Now we've got everything from "sports karate" (in my area you can even get a black belt in the style known as "sports karate"!) to "Xtreme martial arts" and everything in between.  People handle katanas like cheerleaders handle batons, "masters" do flying somesaults with a half-twist and break a couple of boards...

     And still we want to sit in the shadows and chuckle.

     And the traditional schools struggle to keep their enrollments up while the "Xtreme" crowd has people filling every square inch of their schools.  One of the reasons for this is because people believe that that's what martial arts really are...and if we continue to sit back and do nothing, the traditional arts will eventually die out.

     We know what's true and what isn't, more or less.  We know what real karate or kung-fu is and what isn't.  To stand by and let the junk pass for the real arts (to which we have devoted ourselves) is to subsidize it.

     As the saying goes, "All that is required for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing."


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## Don Roley

pgsmith said:


> While I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts on government regulation, I have to point out that you didn't answer my question ... why?
> 
> You've said that we have an obligation to speak, and you've said that the public needs to know, but you've not explained why this is. _Why_ does the general public need to know? _Why_ does it matter if they believe sword twirling is "true" martial arts? _Why_ is it our responsibility to go out and tell them?
> 
> Just curious as to your reasons.



Well, even  though the question was not directed at me, I will give my answer.

I think that *I* need to speak up for a very selfish reason. I want to look in the mirror and know that the guy looking back at me is doing his best for those all around him in this world. I do not want to think of myself as the type of person who would look the other way when a woman is raped, or hold back when the right thing needed to be done.

No one can or should force me to do what they think is the right thing. That is my choice to make. But at the same time, having taken that responsibilty for my actions from others, I realize just what kind of burden I have put on myself.

I would not go into a dojo and challenge anyone I felt did not meet my standards. Violence like that is not acceptable. But to stand by and not say anything when something I know is wrong is stated is just as bad in some way as looking the other way when someone is raped. If I say something, and it is rejected, then I will respect those that make their own choice just as I expect my choices to be respected. But I would not sit back and just pat someone on the back as they did something wrong for fear that it may have a negative impact on me or my reputation. I care too much about my opinion of myself to care about what others think of me. People may think I am a crank, but as long as I know I am in the right they can all go to hell.

So I will set up threads about all that is bad in martial arts. If someone sees something and can't see what is wrong with it and yet others are having a good laugh about it, maybe _just maybe_ they will realize they do not have the ability to tell the good from the bad. Maybe they will look at things deeper than they would have. If so, I can feel that I am a good person. If not, then at least I gave it a shot instead of sitting back and letting things go to hell while I remained silent.


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## pgsmith

> It's necessary because if they believe that the garbage they see is the real thing, it gives us all a black eye.


It hasn't blackened my eyes at all. So, I am to understand that you equate things such as "sports karate" and "XMA" as evil because they make you feel that people think less of you, and that they are stealing your prospective students? Well enough.


> I think that *I* need to speak up for a very selfish reason. I want to look in the mirror and know that the guy looking back at me is doing his best for those all around him in this world. I do not want to think of myself as the type of person who would look the other way when a woman is raped, or hold back when the right thing needed to be done.


Don, I can agree with your general sentiment, but I think that comparing "sensei Bob and his secret sword techniques" to a woman being raped is not only a bit much, it is also a bit rude and insensitive. I know a young lady that was raped, and I seriously doubt that she would equate her trauma with fraudulent martial arts instruction. 

I think exposing those that make up their lineage and try to pass off garbage as legitimate technique is a good thing. This gives those that are interested in research another opportunity to learn reality when they begin searching the internet. However, and this is a rather large however in my personal opinion, it is easy to go too far. There are those that get very upset and angry because "sensei Billy Joe Bob" lied about his experience, even though the fraud actually has nothing to do with the person getting upset at all. There are also those that spend much time hunting on the internet to find video and pictures of people that obviously have no idea what they are doing. They proudly display them and, virtually speaking, stand around and point and laugh to make themselves feel better. Both of these groups are missing the point, in my opinion. The point is that we should be training hard in order to improve ourselves. We should not be worried about how others view us, nor should we try and boost ourselves by putting others down. I see too much of both of these on the various martial arts forums.

A final thought from my own experiences ... 
There is a corner McDojo not far from me. It's a large space in a strip mall. The head instructor is the type that gets laughed at all the time by traditional martial artists. He's a member of the World Head of Family Sokeship Council, and has been "inducted" into half a dozen of the "Martial Arts Hall of Fames". I have actually seen him working with another instructor of his. He was a great kicker, but the rest of his martial arts, most especially the sword stuff that I saw, was absolutely horrible. He makes the vast majority of his money from kids. His classes are filled with kids from 8 to 18. When I was watching (he's next to my dentist so I've watched quite a bit over the years), the kids were working hard for him. He really seemed to be getting them motivated, and one of the Mom's that was watching with me said he's been great with her kids ever since they started 18 months ago, and they just love him. She told me that her two kids in the class (11 and 13) used to spend all of their time watching TV or playing video games. Now they come to class whenever she'll take them, and they practice together at home. So, were these kids learning a real martial art or learning any self defense? Seriously doubtful! But, it's also seriously doubtful that they'll ever need to physically defend themselves. Was going to fake martial arts classes better than what they would have been doing? Absolutely! Their Mom told me that they previously went to a Wado ryu karatedo dojo, (that instructor is the real deal and both highly skilled and qualified) but it was too difficult and her kids didn't like it. 

This fellow is obviously a fake and a fraud. The instruction that he's handing out has been invented by him in order fill his dojo with students and make him money. People like that should be discussed on the internet so anyone researching them and their art will have information. But, would shutting him down be best for society? Does his dojo deserve to be held up as equal to rape? Everyone needs to make their own decisions on those questions. However, I feel that they are not decisions that should be made without hard thinking about what truly motivates us.


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## pstarr

While a fraud running a McDojo can't really be compared to something as rape, it's a sorry thing when someone says, "Well, if it doesn't directly affect _me_, so I'm not going to do anything about it..."


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## Cruentus

I think that people can and should do whatever they want, just as long as they present themselves in an *honest* and *ethical* manner.

I don't care if the guy in the video is doing hybrid Gung-fu/FMA modified to a Japanese sword....just as long as no one gets hurt, and as long as he doesn't lie or misrepresent things like origin, or what it really is.

I didn't look much into it, but it appears that this individual has given his "art" a Japanese name? I would say that might be a misrepresentation if his sword work doesn't have Japanese origins.

I don't care what people do, but it is annoying when people misrepresent it or inflate it. Just present it like it is and let the free-market decide if it has value. The fact is, no one in the "real world" cares about this stuff, and what is "legit" and what isn't, really. This means that there IS no reason to lie or misrepresent. There is no money in what we do unless clever marketing and customer service is involved anyways, and that is the reality. No one in the "real world" who is looking to take up a martial art or self-defense lesson cares about anything else, really; at least not at first. So, Truth + Clever Marketing + Customer Service = SUCCESS even more so then lies and misrepresentations and poor ethics every single time. These weirdo's who would misrepresent themselves would do well to realize this fact.

But the reality is that there will never be a law in a free country to regulate the martial arts. The main reason is that no one cares, as long as no one is physically hurt in the process. The fact that there will never be laws to regulate our industry is probably good, though; for some things it is best to let the free market decide.

As to what we can do? Don't fraud bust, don't chase people around on forums to spread "the truth;" because none of that works. It is, in fact, counter productive. The sad fact is, people want fantasy, and people want to be lied to. This is true for EVERYONE; just for most people fantasy is indulged in a healthy way. When was the last time you really got into a scary movie or a cool video game? You are indulging in fantasy and in a sense being lied too, because none of these indulgences are real or (often) even remotely possible. Yet, we all do it to some degree. Some people, however, indulge in fantasy in UNHEALTHY ways. The unfortunate fact is that some people have fragile identities, and like to let fantasy transform their identities, and therefore like to use the martial arts as an avenue for fantasy. These people gravitate to the Charlatens and keep them in business. They are the ones who will run to the forums and the testimonials, and defend their fraudulent arts and instructors to the grave. They do this because they WANT to do it...NEED to do it; and no amount of "Fraud Busting" will change anything. Do you REALLY think that Charlatens are kept in business (some with thriving businesses) because all of their clients are simply uninformed? Do you? Don't fool yourself, friend. The free market keeps the Charlatans alive; and in what we do, often more readily then those who are legitimate. 

So, what CAN we do? Just present yourself and your art in an ethical manner. Write articles, and informative posts. Talk with people, and of course, train well. You won't scare the general public away from what you do with these tactics, for one. And you're getting the real information out there. For those who are legitimately seeking truth and reality, they will find it whether it be through you or someone like you.

And that is the best that we can do...

Paul


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## exile

Tulisan said:


> Don't fraud bust, don't chase people around on forums to spread "the truth;" because none of that works. It is, in fact, counter productive. The sad fact is, people want fantasy, and people want to be lied to. This is true for EVERYONE; just for most people fantasy is indulged in a healthy way. When was the last time you really got into a scary movie or a cool video game? You are indulging in fantasy and in a sense being lied too, because none of these indulgences are real or (often) even remotely possible. Yet, we all do it to some degree. Some people, however, indulge in fantasy in UNHEALTHY ways. The unfortunate fact is that some people have fragile identities, and like to let fantasy transform their identities, and therefore like to use the martial arts as an avenue for fantasy. These people gravitate to the Charlatens and keep them in business. They are the ones who will run to the forums and the testimonials, and defend their fraudulent arts and instructors to the grave. They do this because they WANT to do it...NEED to do it; and no amount of "Fraud Busting" will change anything. Do you REALLY think that Charlatens are kept in business (some with thriving businesses) because all of their clients are simply uninformed? Do you? Don't fool yourself, friend. The free market keeps the Charlatans alive; and in what we do, often more readily then those who are legitimate.



Wow---Paul, this is a really _nice_ piece of analysis! It's easy to forget that so many people can approach things in such a different way from us... and that the intuition we have, that the truth is intrinsically better than an illusion, is far from universal. `You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free', sure----but a lot of people don't _want_ to be free---they'd rather have a home and a community, even if it's made up of fellow illusion-sharers.



Tulisan said:


> So, what CAN we do? Just present yourself and your art in an ethical manner. Write articles, and informative posts. Talk with people, and of course, train well. You won't scare the general public away from what you do with these tactics, for one. And you're getting the real information out there. For those who are legitimately seeking truth and reality, they will find it whether it be through you or someone like you.
> 
> And that is the best that we can do...



Something tells me you're right on target about this... the best way to lead is by example? Something like that? Anyway, at a quarter after one in the morning, your comment here definitely has the ring of truth.  I hope it isn't just moral fatigue on my part...


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## The Martialist

*Appropriating the Sword (PDF File)*


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## Grenadier

Now now...

I dislike a McDojo as much as any of us here do.  However, it is their business, and as long as they aren't doing anything illegal, then that's their choice as to how they want to run their business.  

This applies to any business, not just martial arts ones.  I don't like Lebanese food, but I will certainly respect a Lebanese restaurant's right to conduct their business in their own way, as long as they obey the laws of the land.  There's a difference between calling the Health and Safety folks on them because, say, they served tainted food, versus the fact that I simply dislike their type of food, period.  One is out of genuine concern for the public, and the other is nothing more than a personal, unjustified vendetta.  

If the above restaurant obeys the laws, and serves food that tastes bad to most of the populace (not just bad-tasting to me, but to everyone), then they'll eventually close down on their own, since they won't have any customers, unless the bulk of their customers happen to believe differently than I do, that perhaps they actually like the food there.  If they've found lots of people that enjoy their food, then they're giving those people what they want.  I may not like the opinions of those customers, but that's their choice.  It's not my business to tell them what they can and cannot eat if there are no laws being broken.  

The same holds true for martial arts schools.  If a school teaches poor quality martial arts, and tries to milk large profits from such instructions, then eventually their school will fail, unless they manage to find people that actually *want* such instruction or fall prey to being gifted these high ranks.  If people want to go to such a school, then that's their choice, even if I strongly disagree with it.  

Paul has stated probably one of the best bits of advice in his post on this thread.  It's well-worth reading, and following.


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## Don Roley

pgsmith said:


> Don, I can agree with your general sentiment, but I think that comparing "sensei Bob and his secret sword techniques" to a woman being raped is not only a bit much, it is also a bit rude and insensitive. I know a young lady that was raped, and I seriously doubt that she would equate her trauma with fraudulent martial arts instruction.



That was not my intent and I apologize if it offended anyone. My point was that some people will say that they would not let something like a rape go on in front of them, and yet when faced with a situation much less dangerous to themselves they decline to say anything for fear of the reprecusions to their reputation.

And while I would not fraud bust anyone who is being honest with what they do, there are certain standards that I hold. If someone is making a big show where I can see them, I will make a comment about it not being up to the standards I hold. If someone sees it, then maybe they will understand that what is being peddled is not what is done in Japan or China. If they still choose to train knowing that, no problem on my part. Some people want fantasy. That is alright with me. But we have seen quite a few people who have "self trained" in the sword try to give advice here. They did not get very far because quite a few people let it be known that they were not the experts they presented themselves as.

If they want to live in a fantasy world, then they are free to do so. But if they present themselves as a serious martial artists, then I have the right to say that they are not up to the standards I see in Japan and in real sword arts.


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## pgsmith

> If someone is making a big show where I can see them, I will make a comment about it not being up to the standards I hold.


  I tend to agree with you on that point. In my opinion, it provides valuable research information to those that are interested. My question of why was aimed primarily at those that get "offended" and "angry" at fraudulent martial arts instructors. These are the ones that say that they should all be shut down. I just think those people need to think about _why_ it makes them angry and upset.


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## Don Roley

pgsmith said:


> I just think those people need to think about _why_ it makes them angry and upset.



In the case of swords, I tend to be a lot more down on stupid stuff than normal. I know a guy who tried fooling around with a live sword as a teenager and had it slip. He lost part of a toe and considers himself lucky.

You see this type of thing on the internet with its wild spinning and such and you can be pretty sure that some kid is going to try it themselves. Even basic cutting with a katana is something I think shouild not be done unless an instructor is there at first. If you just want to play with bokken and spar, I really don't have a problem with that. But the things that got me with the clips I posted was in just how easy it was for someone to drop the damn sword while playing Conan the Barbarian with all that twirling and fancy moves.

Hey, they have a right to be stupid. And kids are going to do stupid stuff despite our best efforts. But to make it easier for them to try dangerous stuff with swords is not something I think anyone with a conscious should be doing.


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## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> In the case of swords, I tend to be a lot more down on stupid stuff than normal. I know a guy who tried fooling around with a live sword as a teenager and had it slip. He lost part of a toe and considers himself lucky.
> 
> You see this type of thing on the internet with its wild spinning and such and you can be pretty sure that some kid is going to try it themselves. Even basic cutting with a katana is something I think shouild not be done unless an instructor is there at first. If you just want to play with bokken and spar, I really don't have a problem with that. But the things that got me with the clips I posted was in just how easy it was for someone to drop the damn sword while playing Conan the Barbarian with all that twirling and fancy moves.
> 
> Hey, they have a right to be stupid. And kids are going to do stupid stuff despite our best efforts. But to make it easier for them to try dangerous stuff with swords is not something I think anyone with a conscious should be doing.


That's also my concern with some of this stuff.  I look back on some of the things I and my friends did (We were walking, talking proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...) when we were kids and you at least had to look to find some of this stuff -- and I wonder how long it'll be till we hear about a kid killing another kid or himself playing with a sword.

If you don't learn the basic safety principles and have supervision, it's just really easy to hurt yourself with a sword...  And too much of the stuff I've seen on YouTube or GoogleVideo is inviting someone to get hurt when they try to imitate it.

If someone wants to pay Joe Swordsman for his secret sword system that he claims was handed down the ages from the illegitimate son of D'artangnon by way of Bruce Lee's secret sword instructor -- that's between them.  But if they ask me about it...  I'm going to give an honest opinion.  And I have walked away from demonstrations or clinics where the presenter clearly didn't understand basic safety.


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## exile

Don Roley said:


> In the case of swords, I tend to be a lot more down on stupid stuff than normal. I know a guy who tried fooling around with a live sword as a teenager and had it slip. He lost part of a toe and considers himself lucky.
> 
> You see this type of thing on the internet with its wild spinning and such and you can be pretty sure that some kid is going to try it themselves. Even basic cutting with a katana is something I think shouild not be done unless an instructor is there at first. If you just want to play with bokken and spar, I really don't have a problem with that. But the things that got me with the clips I posted was in just how easy it was for someone to drop the damn sword while playing Conan the Barbarian with all that twirling and fancy moves.
> 
> Hey, they have a right to be stupid. And kids are going to do stupid stuff despite our best efforts. But to make it easier for them to try dangerous stuff with swords is not something I think anyone with a conscious should be doing.



This is getting truer and truer as the XMA phenomenon expands its domain piggybacking on the media's love for anything which maximizes viewship by catering to people's love of spectacle. I'm thinking of Jonathan Boyd's bizarre display of swordsmanship-as-baton-twirling in the Discovery Channel XMA special (yes, I've already posted on this, but the more I think about it and read about the appeal the XMA stuff has for kids, the more alarmed I get thinking about the blade acrobatics, and I think it bears repeating).  If you paid close attention to the interview with Boyd after he won the weapons competitiion part of that particular karate tournament, you'd have caught his kind of lighthearted and flippant comment about pushing out the envelope of sword technique by doing stuff that could `probably get you killed'---I _think_ those were his exact words---and I'm pretty sure he was in part referring to one component of his performance where he throws the katana at least ten feet over his head and catches it by the handle on the way down---where the time difference between a hard grab on the handle and a hard grab on the _blade_ is a very small fraction of a second. :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: 

Glamourizing dangerous or outright stupid practices is a big part in how the media sells their wares. But losing a hand, or worse, seems like it would be much too big a price to pay for a kid whose only crime is not knowing any better, i.e., being a kid. It may help the Discovery Channel's bottom line to glorify this sort of thing (and they do that unreservedly, there's not a single line in the whole damned video that seriously reminds the viewer not to try this at home) but responsible swordspeople would do well to try to counter that kind of sensationalism, along the lines Don is suggesting...


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## Sui

Don Roley said:


> Someone please explain something to me.
> 
> Why is it that every idiot with a sword just _has_ to put a video of themselves using it on youtube?


 

I actually laughed out loud while watching that


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## Don Roley

Sui said:


> I actually laughed out loud while watching that



If you think that was funny, check out the tap- dancing knife master!

But I can't get worked up about this guy since it is a lot less likely that kids will try this type of thing and get hurt. This moron is just plain funny.


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## terryl965

Well Don looked at it like this the fantasy world is once again proven to be an asset to some.


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## Rich Parsons

Don Roley said:


> If you think that was funny, check out the tap- dancing knife master!
> 
> But I can't get worked up about this guy since it is a lot less likely that kids will try this type of thing and get hurt. This moron is just plain funny.



I wonder if at one time someone made a foot stomp to emphasize the strike with the hand, and in the end one gets this. I have not seen this before, and not sure about the multiple steps in a FMA style system. 

As the site stated Cebuano Knife Fighting is tight, and while I agree with that, I am having a problem "seeing" this footwork in action myself. And that is with 20+ years of being open minded to the FMA's and knowing that there are some really interesting differences, yet this one leaves me wondering What the Heck? 

Ugh is correct.


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## wade

WOW! This is great. I've really enjoyed reading everything y'all wrote on the swords and other weapons. The videos were fantastic. The comments were excellent. I have just one small question, who the heck are you and what gives you the right to make fun of anyone else? As I recall, badly mind you, most of the sword masters of Japan hated each other dearly and considered Mushashi a barbarian. He was to swordsmanship what the sport martial arts are to traditional martial arts today. Face it, all he wanted to do was spar and improve his technique. He even changed to a boken so he wouldn't kill his opponents so quickly. Hmmmmmm, I wonder if any one ever criticized his technique? As for your linage, do other Japanese Masters recognize it as legal or not? Back in the day I would say not, has this changed, just curious? If I don't recognize your master and system, and I don't, why should others be expected to?


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## Rich Parsons

wade said:


> WOW! This is great. I've really enjoyed reading everything y'all wrote on the swords and other weapons. The videos were fantastic. The comments were excellent. I have just one small question, who the heck are you and what gives you the right to make fun of anyone else? As I recall, badly mind you, most of the sword masters of Japan hated each other dearly and considered Mushashi a barbarian. He was to swordsmanship what the sport martial arts are to traditional martial arts today. Face it, all he wanted to do was spar and improve his technique. He even changed to a boken so he wouldn't kill his opponents so quickly. Hmmmmmm, I wonder if any one ever criticized his technique? As for your linage, do other Japanese Masters recognize it as legal or not? Back in the day I would say not, has this changed, just curious? If I don't recognize your master and system, and I don't, why should others be expected to?




 - SHHHHH - Someone might ask what or who gives you the right to ask us those questions.


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## wade

Well, that's the beauty of it. I am a total ignorant beginner waiting to be dazzled cause I done seen "The Last Samurai" and other than not wanting Tom's nose or to have to train like that I do want everything else. 
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Don Roley

wade said:


> I have just one small question, who the heck are you and what gives you the right to make fun of anyone else?



The first ammendment and over a decade of study of the sword while living in Japan. If they do stupid things, I have the right to comment on it. If you don't like us commenting, you should stop reading and posting.

And you do not even know what you are talking about when you state certain "facts" about the subject matter such as Musashi. In my eyes, you are not worth listening to. Best if you sit back and learn from those that know more than you.


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## Kwiter

I've been "studying" MA for about 30 years, as a Teen I had an affection for Bokken and Sai and fooled with both, never would have wanted to do the insane things I did with a Bokken with a live blade. I was never TRAINED to use a Bokken or Sai just kinda aped what I saw in Fumio Demura's books and the Saturday Martial Arts shows ;-)

Kids will do some incredibly crazy thing, hell one of MY favorite after July 4th activity's was to gather up unused Sparklers , strip the aluminum oxide coating off and place in a cigar tube, add a 1/4 ounce or so of gasoline , pop a hole in the cigar tubes end cap and run a sparkler thru it, light that sparkler and watch the show! We also used to collect unfired firecrackers and remove the powder and make LARGE explosive devices in film cannisters and such.

I recall a BBC TV show called the Goodies, they had their own MA too called Ecky Thump where you used Bread pudding as a weapon!

Where am I going with all this? No where in particular. Enlighten those you can and forget those who don't want to listen.

In the old days children actually were TRUSTED to have Knives and Bow and Arrows, even rifles and other "weapons" and were supervised by their neighbors and woe unto you if a neighbor saw you doing something stupid with them.

My fave tho was a neighbor complaining to my Grandmother about me riding my Motorcycle up and down the block like a lunatic, guess my bike being in pieces in boxes waiting to be painted in my Grandmothers basement at the time saved me that time eh? ;-)

Skennen Peace.


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## Kwiter

Let me babble some more, remember too that many times in Film, the director has NO CLUE about MA's and hires a consultant BUT has ultimate say on how things will go wether the consultant tells them its wrong, silly or dangerous.

Youtubers are looking for their 15 minutes of Fame in most cases and some really are talented and some Hysterical. gotta love them Mentos Rockets and the DIY Flamethrowers and Potato cannons.


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## wade

Don, Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me. I never said that I didn't like your comments or your posting. I have really learned a lot more than I ever knew about the sword and swordsmanship by reading posts from qualified experts like you. My point was that if you tell me your style is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and your sword instructor was Iizasa Choisai Ienao, how would I know you were telling the truth? You do know who he is, right? And why the style is important to me?  My point is that there are a lot of fakes out there to bedazzle people like me so how do I tell what is real and what is not? Oh yeah, the bit about the boken is from the book MUSASHI written by Fumiko Yoshikawa in 1971. Now, if I can't believe this writer, then who can I believe? I will understand if you don't respond because like you said I don't know what I am talking about and I'm not gonna argue with you cause you are right. But if I don't ask questions how am I gonna find out the answers? I thought maybe here but apparently, I was wrong. Sorry.................................... I won't bother you experts on this subject again.


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## jks9199

Rich Parsons said:


> I wonder if at one time someone made a foot stomp to emphasize the strike with the hand, and in the end one gets this. I have not seen this before, and not sure about the multiple steps in a FMA style system.
> 
> As the site stated Cebuano Knife Fighting is tight, and while I agree with that, I am having a problem "seeing" this footwork in action myself. And that is with 20+ years of being open minded to the FMA's and knowing that there are some really interesting differences, yet this one leaves me wondering What the Heck?
> 
> Ugh is correct.



I can imagine legitimate reasons for the steps/stomps.  But the presentation was utterly unrealistic; the "opponent" throws one half-hearted strike-ish motion, and the showboat does his 30 steps and taps while the "opponent" just stands there.  Just ain't gonna happen in reality...

That, and it kind of worries me if the system requires a smooth surface be laid on a nice grassy field...


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## Don Roley

wade said:


> Don, Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me. I never said that I didn't like your comments or your posting. I have really learned a lot more than I ever knew about the sword and swordsmanship by reading posts from qualified experts like you. My point was that if you tell me your style is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and your sword instructor was Iizasa Choisai Ienao, how would I know you were telling the truth?



Ah, I see your point. 

In this case, I think that the flipping and such of the clips are pretty obvious. Failing that (since unless we have been a real sword fight we can't say with experience what will work or not) you should look for groups of folks that are in places to know something about swordsmanship. If someone is posting from Japan about Japanese swordsmanship, they may be more knowledgeable than most. Of course, there is a lot of idiots who will not even learn the language while living in Japan. So look for those that seem to be in step with the vast majority of folks posting from Japan.

On Martialtalk, if someone claims to be posting from Japan and is not, you will know about it.



wade said:


> My point is that there are a lot of fakes out there to bedazzle people like me so how do I tell what is real and what is not? Oh yeah, the bit about the boken is from the book MUSASHI written by Fumiko Yoshikawa in 1971. Now, if I can't believe this writer, then who can I believe?



Well, certainly not a work of fiction. Yoshikawa tells a good story, but misses the point in very important points. Musashi did not use a bokken so that he would not kill his opponents so quickly. Trust me on this.

But I understand your point about not being able to tell the fakes from the real guys. Unless you are an expert, you really can't tell. That is why you need to verify if they guy is trustworthy or not and check his story. Some people may be telling the truth about who they learned from and still be idiots. But someone who won't tell you who they trained with and contact them is not someone you should trust when dealing with things like swords.


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## Rich Parsons

jks9199 said:


> I can imagine legitimate reasons for the steps/stomps. But the presentation was utterly unrealistic; the "opponent" throws one half-hearted strike-ish motion, and the showboat does his 30 steps and taps while the "opponent" just stands there. Just ain't gonna happen in reality...
> 
> That, and it kind of worries me if the system requires a smooth surface be laid on a nice grassy field...




Yes the stomps are applicable, but as you stated, the presentation was lacking. And hence my confusion in understanding it.


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## splice42

wade said:


> Oh yeah, the bit about the boken is from the book MUSASHI written by Fumiko Yoshikawa in 1971. Now, if I can't believe this writer, then who can I believe?



First, MUSASHI was written by Eiji Yoshikawa, not Fumiko Yoshikawa. 

Second, Eiji Yoshikawa was a novelist. The novel MUSASHI contained many fictionalized details. You can read more about it (and more about Musashi in general) at this link.

I would suggest you also look for Kenji Tokitsu's Musashi: His Life & Writings, and William Scott Wilson's Lone Samurai. Both are deeply involved with translating and interpreting original japanese literature. I believe Dr. Karl Friday (professor of Japanese History) linked to the article in the previous paragraph as "a good source for reasonably accurate information".

I would also suggest that in the future you either check up on your sources thoroughly or cast a wider net. Your protestation of "if I can't trust this writer, who can I believe?" rings hollow when considering the very nature of the work (fiction) and the availability of serious research on the subject.


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## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> Ah, I see your point.
> 
> In this case, I think that the flipping and such of the clips are pretty obvious. Failing that (since unless we have been a real sword fight we can't say with experience what will work or not) you should look for groups of folks that are in places to know something about swordsmanship. If someone is posting from Japan about Japanese swordsmanship, they may be more knowledgeable than most. Of course, there is a lot of idiots who will not even learn the language while living in Japan. So look for those that seem to be in step with the vast majority of folks posting from Japan.



So, the Japanese have found yet another way to imitate the US, huh?  I've spent entire days at work where I spoke more Spanish than English...




> Well, certainly not a work of fiction. Yoshikawa tells a good story, but misses the point in very important points. Musashi did not use a bokken so that he would not kill his opponents so quickly. Trust me on this.
> 
> But I understand your point about not being able to tell the fakes from the real guys. Unless you are an expert, you really can't tell. That is why you need to verify if they guy is trustworthy or not and check his story. Some people may be telling the truth about who they learned from and still be idiots. But someone who won't tell you who they trained with and contact them is not someone you should trust when dealing with things like swords.



Something else worth remembering is that sometimes stories get twisted during repetition.  A person I highly respect has a tendency to enlarge stories for the benefit of his friends; it's well meaning -- but to hear him tell one story, I had every woman in a bar buying me drinks one night.  The truth... ONE woman bought me ONE drink after I bought her one.  Stories of martial arts masters are even worse...  It's told to the first generation one way (the master beat 3 people in one night!), and they repeat it (the master beat three people at once), and it gets repeated again (the master beat 3 sets of 3 people with only one strike each!)...  And so on.  Nobody's is deliberately lying, and there's a germ of truth in there -- but the accounts aren't quite accurate.

That said -- as you said, anyone who won't/can't tell you who they trained with is suspect.  I'll give them a little leeway on the contact if the explanation is reasonable and doesn't feel deceptively convenient.  For example, I won't give my instructor's phone number or address out to someone without his permission.  But you can verify who he is and who I am through other channels.


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## wade

I wasn't gonna come back cause y'all were picking on me cause of how much I don't know but I just learned a new word and wanted to share it with you (only the ones that are being mean to me cause I am such a freaking delicate flower) anyway the word it PPPPBBBBTTTTHHHHHHH, I think, probably got this wrong too, damn..............................

BTW, thanks Don, that does help. When I said I was really a beginner I wasn't joking. To me what is obvious to you looks cool and normal to me. 

To splice42, on the cover it says Eiji Yoshikawa but on page iv it says Fumiko Yoshikawa 1971. So please understand if I was confused.

OK, done, gone again, by...................................


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## pgsmith

> My point was that if you tell me your style is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and your sword instructor was Iizasa Choisai Ienao, how would I know you were telling the truth?


Wade,
Your best bet is research. You could ask somewhere, such as here, and likely get the answer that someone lied to you since Iizasa Choisai Ienao _created_ TSKSR about 600 years ago, and so is NOT likely to be someone's teacher today.  However, you would only find the answer to the specific question you asked that way, and wouldn't really gain a lot of knowledge. If you instead asked for research resources from somewhere, such as here, and did your own research, then you would learn a lot of stuff that you would never have thought to ask about such as ... Who is the current soke? Why isn't he the head instructor? Who is the head instructor? 



> Oh yeah, the bit about the boken is from the book MUSASHI written by Fumiko Yoshikawa in 1971. Now, if I can't believe this writer, then who can I believe?


As has been previously pointed out, this book is a work of historical fiction, not a biography. You would be much better off believing the words of those that actually practice the art handed down by Musashi (there are a few that have quite a large presence on the net). A little research, or questions asked, could yield quite a bit of very accurate information.



> But if I don't ask questions how am I gonna find out the answers? I thought maybe here but apparently, I was wrong.


As I stated earlier, it is all in the questions that you ask. Wishing to be spoon-fed very particular information will cause people to grow weary of it very quickly. Looking for ways to increase your own level of knowledge  through extensive research of your own, will invite people to assist you in your quest. The proper outlook is all-important.


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## Ninjamom

When the US Dept of Treasury trains agents to recognize counterfeit twenty dollar bills, they _do not_ show them tons of different fake twenties: they have the new agents handle thousands of _real_ bills.  Once you are very familiar with the look and feel of the 'real thing', all the counterfeits become obvious.

Perhaps what the community needs is a short collectioon of video clips of what 'good' swordsmanship looks like, so that those who haven't studied a traditional sword art can see the difference.  Nothing exposes a fraud more readily than the real deal.


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## Sukerkin

Whilst not a bad idea in and of itself, *Ninjamom*, I believe that one of the reasons why 'accurate' information and demonstrations are not made freely available is so that it makes it harder for the 'fakers' to be convincing.  At least I know that's the case in the world of sword collecting i.e. accurate information passes within a proscribed 'circle' so that those producing fake antiques have less chance of making ones that will fool the experts.

Plus, there is always the old chestnut that if examples of good JSA are put out there too prevelently, then some untrained kid (or adult) is going to end up with a katana stuck where it shouldn't be whilst trying to look 'cool' copying the kata.

Speaking of cool things ... I know it's been said on other threads but ... cool username milady :tup:.


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## pgsmith

Hi Ninjamom,
  I don't know that simply seeing good swordsmanship will help all that much, but there is a group on YouTube for it already. There are some really good video clips of legitimate Japanese sword arts here ... http://www.youtube.com/group/iaido


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## King

He-he finally saw the vid after reading the discussion posts. Is it me or did he look afraid of the blade he was twirling around? All the sword twirling and the position of his free hand did remind me of escrima. 

I do agree that the twirling can get intimidating especially when someone is walking towards you. Back when I tried Kali we sparred with foam covered bamboo sticks. I usually enjoyed disarming people doing twirls with a well timed overhand strike. 

Anyway coming to my point, I think it's cool trying to experiment with different things. In this case applying escrima techniques do different blades. However blades are created for different purpose and/or techniques so I can't believe one style can utilize all the different swords. I think misrepresenting yourself as a master when it's painfully obvious that you are not... Well that's not cool.


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## wade

Thank you pgsmith, watching some of those was like watching my instructor from over 30 years ago. Yes, I do know who Iizasa Choisai Ienao was and when he lived. My sword instructor trained in Japan and this was the style he taught to me. No, I don't have any ranking in this system, yes, I still train in it the way I was taught. Thank you, i loved the videos.


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## pgsmith

Hey Wade,
  I was not trying to slag you or be condescending, just trying to point out something that seemed to be missing in your approach. Glad you liked the vids, I haven't had a chance to watch them all myself, but I have picked out and watched some of the choicer ones!


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## Don Roley

wade said:


> Thank you pgsmith, watching some of those was like watching my instructor from over 30 years ago. Yes, I do know who Iizasa Choisai Ienao was and when he lived. My sword instructor trained in Japan and this was the style he taught to me. No, I don't have any ranking in this system, yes, I still train in it the way I was taught. Thank you, i loved the videos.



Be carefull.

There are very, very few qualified kenjutsu instructors in America. There were even fewer 30 years ago. I would dare say that not even one in a hundred people claiming to teach sword in America would even rate as a begginer in many sword schools in Japan.

I have seen situations where people have taken kenjutsu videos and such and turned around and taught students from them. These people then put videos of themselves up on the internet. The real practicioners of the art saw them and could tell all the flaws. But the students of the video learners could look at the real stuff from Japan and think that they were looking at the same thing they were doing.

I do not know who your teacher is or if he was legit. I do not have a name and I am sure you believe him. However, the odds are against you for him being legit in what he says. And unless you were exposed to the real thing, you can look at real stuff and think you are doing the same thing. It is like what ninjamom said about the treasury and counterfeit bills.

So you see the problem. How do you *know* that what you learned was real? I used to believe that an instructor I trained with in America knew his stuff and I was with him for a few years. It was not until I got to Japan that I saw how wrong I was and learned just how little he had spent in Japan learning.

Annoying, isn't it?


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## wade

Hi Don, OK, about my instructor. Hmmmm, as far as I know he wasn't even a black belt. We never discussed it even though we trained together for over 3 years. I was the TKD instructor for 5th Grp at Bragg and he was a Spc 7 with the 4th Psyops Bn. We met while working as range safety NCO's. He studied Hapkido and the sword, was married to a nice Japanese lady he met while stationed in Japan. He taught me what he knew of the sword, which just happened to be KSR and I taught him how to kick and punch. My wife's father gave me my first sword that he had picked up in Japan at the end of the war. He was in the South Pacific, not sure what islands but ended up serving with the original occupation forces. The swords were lying in hugh stacks and the US forces were told to take what they wanted. Sad, eh? Anyway, it was during this time I made the mistake of cutting branches with the sword. Mike, my unauthorized instructor, was the one who had a panic attack and made me quit. So as for him being a legal qualified instructor, I really doubt he was. Was he real, probably not, do I care, not even a little. I have worked with others that have claimed to be instructors but to be honest my thing is TKD so I have never even checked up on them to see if their rank was legal or not. I don't teach the sword nor do I claim to be an instructor in it. I still have fun and play with them though. Thank you for your effort to help me clean up my act. Probably not gonna work but thanks anyway.


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## Don Roley

Wade,
Are you having some fun with all of us here at Martialtalk?


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## wade

Don, in a word, no. What I've told you about my playing (after reading what you and others have written here I won't call it training anymore) with the sword is the truth. I am having fun, but I don't think at any ones expense. My questions and responses were honest, I've never claimed to be something I'm not. The only claim I've made is in TKD. If you go to usa-taekwondo.us and go to the club section for Oregon you will find my school listed. I'm also not looking to make fun of nor piss people off. If you go to my introduction letter, it starts off "I Apologize", that wasn't a joke then and it's not now. I do ask questions because it is amazing how many legitimate masters of various styles I've met over the years (I started in 1968) who, for a better word, were fakes. Their MA were sometimes fantastic but they weren't legitimate, or their credentials were legitimate and they themselves were fake. I'm KKW so my being legal comes from the KKW in Korea. How many so called masters and instructors only claim to be legal comes from (1) single person. Does this make me anymore legal than them, no, it does not. Does it make them better than me, no, I don't think so. To me, to learn more, I ask questions and it is amazing how may can't give good answers for their own systems, styles, etc. So no Don, I'm not having fun at your expense, I'm just asking questions.


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## Solidman82

Not to be nitpicky but it seems like if it was every one there would be a lot more cut people caught on video. Which I must say, would be sweet.


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## wade

Don, since you don't want to receive e-mails I will do this in open forum. I would like to apologize to you if I have offended you. I didn't understand why you came at me the way you did but the more I read on this site about some of the things people do, say and claim I now am beginning to understand you, even if only a little bit. I have been cruising in "The Great Debate" area. OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Solidman, what in the world are you talking about?


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