# Pit-Bull dilemma??



## Calm Intention (May 27, 2006)

This may be out of the box,  but its a concern none-the-less,  and maybe others here have asked themselves the same question:

"How do you defend yourself against a pit-bull"?
My neighborhood is really going down hill,  and for whatever reason,  it seems as this trend grows,  so does the presence of 'the new neighbors'  owning pit-bulls.:idunno:   

I've been confronted 2X  with these type dogs(in the past),  and it wasn't a pleasant experience-  but I suffered no harm either time(very very lucky for myself).   I've no doubt if there had been an actual attack,  I'd have been toast.
So I beckon,  what resource(when you've no weapon to help you),  would you utilize?


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## Drac (May 27, 2006)

I don't think there is a way to defend your self against a pit bull..Yes, they are very popular with the "drug boys" because they raise them to be ultra aggressive..Over the years while on duty I have been charged by smaller and medium size dogs and a quick front snap kick to the muzzle stopped the charge long enough to reach my "pepper spray"
Trying that on a "pit bull"would be a big mistake..Maybe the others will have better sugestions..


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## Marvin (May 27, 2006)

If you are able to climb somthing, CLIMB!!! Or get a weapon, tool making and useage is what allowed us to become successful over the other animals that were stronger than we were in the "caveman" days


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## rompida (May 27, 2006)

I was attacked by one several years ago - it all happened very fast.  I would have been toast if the owner didn't come out and pull him off of me.  The dog just kept leaping up for my throat/face area.  I kept feeding him elbows, and so I just had chunks taken out of my arms instead of neck.  I roundhouse kicked that dog in the head as hard as I could and it didn't even faze him.  I was somewhat trapped on a front porch with railing.  In retrospect, I should have jumped over to put the railing between us... but again, it happened so quick my first instinct was to protect myself instead of jumping over.  

I would advise...

1) carry a quick deploy weapon - a folding knife would take to long to get out and open.  

2) When walking through this area, be aware of your surroundings and where you could take cover or get behind.  (parked cars, fences, etc.) Try to avoid walking through the area if possible.  

3)  Start callling animal control ANYTIME you see these dogs out without a leash.   They will come and get them or write tickets.  Animal control destroyed the dog that attacked me.

best of luck and I hope it never happens to you.  I would have much rather have taken on the owner than his dog.  To this day I still freeze up for a second or two when I see a pitbull.


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## MartialIntent (May 27, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> This may be out of the box, but its a concern none-the-less, and maybe others here have asked themselves the same question:
> 
> "How do you defend yourself against a pit-bull"?
> My neighborhood is really going down hill, and for whatever reason, it seems as this trend grows, so does the presence of 'the new neighbors' owning pit-bulls.:idunno:
> ...


 
I can offer you two tips as someone who was very very fond of dogs [my dad owned and bred many champion English Bull Terriers - yeah the ones with the colored patch around their eye] but since being attacked by an unleashed animal while biking to work I am more prepared nowadays.

When you know a dog has you in his sights for the 5 meter radius I use these and they *do* work in 90% of cases. Some dogs will jump as if they have been hit by a car, some go a little crazy but few are impervious to it. I have one mounted to my handlebar and use it *zealously* like a cycle bell. And I'll admit a certain sadistic pleasure using them to chase cats from the kids' sandbox in the back yard
http://www.dazer.com/dog-deterrent.jsp

Once you see the animal move aggressively towards you my only advice is to just be ready with *whatever* you have. As a wearied cyclist and lacking the tip of my pinkie and a bitesize piece of my hand from the attack, I now carry one of these things below strapped to my seatstay. You might think it's Dickensian but it'll skin an aggressive dog no problem in fact if you need to, it will do a lot more damage than that and it's actually quite a fun thing to play with. Not the most legal thing in the world where I am from but I'll take that chance because I'd rather keep sufficient fingers to continue tinkling my ivories and ebonies as it were! Hehe.
http://www.coldsteel.com/95sseries.html

But yeah awareness is *absolutely* the most important thing.

Respects!


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## Robert Lee (May 27, 2006)

Do not turn your back and run. You might try backing away while looking at the dog. On a pit they bite down and holld and then shakee to get a stronger bite. as with any dog.  you have a break at the back of the jaw The dog has no strengh there over all you can use something to pry the jaws opens. Pits are often kept by people that well do not do every thing legal drugs or steal. Then people keep them for competition pulling and as pets. But they were bred so long for the pit fights they are not the best of pets. And are very strong dogs.  Nice today bad tomorrow. The owners should make sure the dog is kept safely not a threat. But some do not report them to animal control voice your concerns to the local police. Pepper spray carried in hand on a walk sure could halp. Used to be something called hokie pokie. It was a spray you could spray on a dog kind of froze the skin and the dog would yelp and run away. Did not really hurt the dog. But the dog did not want to stay around and get sprayed agin.  I would call the local police. Ask them that if you were walking and had problems related to a dog attack Could you carry and use pepper spray or would they recom,end some thing legal that you could use to repale the attack.


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## Kacey (May 27, 2006)

Also, you should remember that Staffordshire Terriers (colloquially known as pit bulls), like other breeds labelled as 'vicious' are only vicious when mistreated or badly bred; properly bred and raised pits are very calm family dogs that are very good with children.  However, the breed also has very strong jaws, so that when they do clamp down, it is harder to get their jaws loose than for other dogs.  

The same rules that work for other breeds and other wild animals hold true for pits as well.  Avoidance is your best bet; if that's not possible, then you need to know how to face the dog down without letting it see you as prey.  Remain as calm as possible, and back away - don't run, and don't turn your back.

If you want further advice, I would suggest contacting a local shelter, such as the Humane Society, for information.  They can provide you with more specifics about vicious dogs, and how to deal with them, and can also provide you with a way to report potentially vicious dogs and have them evaluated before it reaches the point that one attacks.


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## swiftpete (May 27, 2006)

Don't try hitting it in the head, my brother used to have one, one day he was walking it and it ran out in front of a bus. The bus actually ran over the dogs head, it flipped the dog over but it got up and was fine afterwards. Shows they're incredibly strong and tough animals! So if a bus can't do it, I doubt your hand would. I hope I never have to face one in anger. Sorry I haven't got any real advice but thought I'd share!


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## Cruentus (May 27, 2006)

I will start my response with this:

I am the proud owner of an American Pit Bull Terrier (otherwise known as a "pitbull"). The American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) is not only our American Heritage Dog, being a breed that is as american as apple pie blue jeans, but it is probably one of the best family dogs that you could own.

So, not that I take offense, but this thread should be labelled "what should I do if attacked by an out of control _*dog*_?" ANY dog that is large enough and mean enough to be a concern is a problem - not "pit bulls" specifically.

That said, certain dogs do have physical attributes that you must be careful of and take into consideration for your self-defense plan.

On top of being a great dog around family and kids, my APBT is also being trained for SAR (search and rescue) and protection work. I will say that there are some noticable physical traits that should be considered; *CLIMBING *is one of them. German Shepards and Malinos that we work with can climb when trained. With APBT, it happends to be an inherent quality in the breed. My dog has the abilities (although he doesn't always use these abilities unless highly motivated) to climb fences, and trees. My dog is a small 50lb dog, but has taken running leaps where his hind legs have reached my chin level. Some dogs are very athletic naturally; so consider this point when considering escaping from certain animals.

*As to a self-defense plan:*

1. In the immediate, PEPPER SPRAY is your best friend against almost any dog. Pepper spray ruins the motivation of dogs to hurt you. This will work almost everytime; I only say almost as a disclaimer, but I haven't heard of it NOT working (unless the dog is rabid or drug induced).

2. Keep on your neighbors asses if they are doing cruel things to the animal to make it mean. If anyone is neglecting or abusing animals in your neighborhood, take responsability and report it. And keep reporting it! With any luck, the scumbags will have their pets taken from them. The biggest problem with dangerous dogs is that the owners have usually made them that way. Go after the owners within the limits of the law, but relentlessly.

3. If there is no visable signs of neglect or abuse, see if you can get to know the neighbors dog. See if you can "meet" the dog with the owners permission. Bring it a food motivator like cut up hot dogs. Meet the dog several times. Say "hi" to it when he see's you. All of these things add up; a lot of times fears of neighborhood dogs have more to do with the dogs neighbors then the dog itself. Befriending the dog does a couple of things; #1. it helps disipate your fears, which all do respect may in fact be irrational; and #2. it will aquaint the dog to you so if there is ever an incident (like he gets out of the yard or something) he is more likely to listen to you and therefore be less of a threat.

As to APBT; these dogs are incredably people oriented and friendly by nature, even though they may seem frightening. They don't have natural human aggressive or territorial tendencies like "guard dog" breeds (dobermans, rotts, etc.), which is why they often make terrible guard dogs, especially when it comes to property protection. So, don't let the intimidating outer shell fool you.

*Lastly: *Although I have mentioned some breed specific things regarding APBT; chances are your neighborhood friend isn't a pure APBT anyways. A good way to tell is size; APBT don't usually exceed 60lb if they are healthy; and that would be considered a very large pit. There are some who have breed large pits going as heavy as 90 lbs or so, but that is incredably rare. If it is this monster of a dog, then chances are it is a lab-pit mix, boxer mix, american bulldog, or some other such breed.

Not that it really matters for your self-defense plan. But, just do your homework if your really curious as to the breed. I have run into many owners who have introduced me to their "pitbulls" when the dog was in some cases nowhere near being the actual breed.

Good luck; with some common sense you shouldn't need it! 

Paul Janulis


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## Cruentus (May 27, 2006)

Also...keep an eye out; I want to start a thread with some pics of my baby!


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## Calm Intention (May 27, 2006)

swiftpete said:
			
		

> Don't try hitting it in the head, my brother used to have one, one day he was walking it and it ran out in front of a bus. The bus actually ran over the dogs head, it flipped the dog over but it got up and was fine afterwards. Shows they're incredibly strong and tough animals! So if a bus can't do it, I doubt your hand would. I hope I never have to face one in anger. Sorry I haven't got any real advice but thought I'd share!


 
*appreciate everyones response here.

SP,
Wow!  I just doubled my worried state of mind with that!  A bus yet!

I do think I will be making calls to animal control- good idea.

I don't know how practical this is,  but I had a friend from West Philly whom I once spoke of this with after being confronted my first time;  anyway,  he says to me that if you can pick up the dog by the rear legs,  and throw it against a wall(or whatever),.........
Absolutely true comment of his,  and I'm thinking to myself,  yeah right,  the dogs just going to allow that to happen.

I'll just say in the first case,  I tried to befriend this pit,  and although I was frighened,  for whatever reason,  this dog(after running directly at me from across the street),  seemed more like he needed a friend possibly- followed me for 3 blocks and ran off.   
The 2nd time,   just the grace from above-  I'm too embarrassed to tell you what I thought would work;  but,  these dogs dont care much about human psychology to say the least.


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## Jade Tigress (May 27, 2006)

While hitting or kicking can work with most dogs, sometimes...especially with aggressive Terriers...hitting or kicking the dog can actually make them become more aggressive. 

As already suggested, carry pepper spray or another quick access weapon, and call animal control everytime you see one off a leash.

If you can...picking a dog up by the hind legs actually works. I don't know about the throwing it against a wall part...lol...I guess if it knocks the dog out it would be a good follow-up. 

I had 2 Jack Russell Terriers...a momma (a 12 pound dog) and her son (a 17 pound dog)...the son was the alpha male of the litter...he does NOT like other animals AT ALL...and was even very aggresive with his momma. We had to feed them separately and no bones or toys of any kind allowed. He attacked her on several occasions...very badly...NOTHING stopped him...we threw water on him..hit him in the head...kicked at him...threw a blanket over him (this was also a suggested option)...it was frightening..once he got a hold on the other dog he would not stop or let go for anything. UNTIL we heard about picking him up by the rear legs. Next time he snapped and attacked Abby that's what we did. Picked him up and let him dangle until he let go of Abby. It worked pretty fast too. It would be harder to do this with a larger dog like a pit bull...but in the heat of the moment could be a good option. 

And as Paul mentioned...Pit Bulls are great family dogs...it just depends on how they are trained...and since they are so strong, tough, and tenacious, they are a popular breed by those who want "attack dogs". 

We had to have our little momma dog put down a few weeks ago due to a very painful degenerative disc disease she developed...she was 9 years old.

Below is a picture of my son with our 2 dogs...Abby, the little one, is the momma, and Moose, the larger one is the little attack monster and we still have him.

One more thing I just thought of....and I don't know if this is a good idea or not so chime in with your thoughts. 
But...what about buying some really yummy treats and tossing them to the dogs whenever you see them...whether they are leashed or not...and maybe they would come to associate you with good things and not be aggressive toward you. ???


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## Calm Intention (May 27, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> But...what about buying some really yummy treats and tossing them to the dogs whenever you see them...whether they are leashed or not...and maybe they would come to associate you with good things and not be aggressive toward you. ???


 
I had a neighbor next door with twin Pits,  and knew them from a few weeks old- up till about 9mos.,, and used to feed them treats and pet them.   However,  at around possibly the 6th month,  they began making me pretty nervous by their building aggressive nature.

As to creating treats around with me,  possibly a very good preventative measure-  but since I don't know dogs well,  is that a certain solution?
Like,  they get a treat,  and then I'm their buddy...or just  not their lunch?


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## Xue Sheng (May 27, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> My neighborhood is really going down hill,


 
Good suggestions, pit bulls are very tough, and if it is a dog from a good line it can be a great pet. 

But many , as mentioned previously by Drac, owners "raise them to be ultra aggressive". I know a friend in a local PD that had to shoot one to stop it. 

My suggestion.... move to a different neighborhood.


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## Rich Parsons (May 27, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> This may be out of the box, but its a concern none-the-less, and maybe others here have asked themselves the same question:
> 
> "How do you defend yourself against a pit-bull"?
> My neighborhood is really going down hill, and for whatever reason, it seems as this trend grows, so does the presence of 'the new neighbors' owning pit-bulls.:idunno:
> ...




As others stated It is not just PIT Bulls, but dogs that have gone feral or bad from mistreatment that are the issue. 

I do not have the training that some others have but I do have a few experiences to share. 

When I was a kid back in the 70's, there was a guy who rented on our street. (* Nice rural dirt road *) He had his Doberman from the service with him. (* This is the story he told us and the owners of the house I cannot verify truth of it then or now. *) He had to keep the dog inside or in a covered kennel. This dog was always good and there was never a problem. The problem was the offspring of this dog that he tried to train by himself. In particular one he kept was a real mean dog. The dog would chase kids on bikes and bite them when he got off his rope or out of his collar. The owner of the Dog told the police the kids antagonized the dog and teased him. We were kids who just rode our bikes up and down the dead end road. Well one day goign to visit a friend past this house he came out of his yard after me. (* The excuse was, his wife had let the dog out and did not think it needed to be chained or leashed. *) I stopped my bike and spun it around and hit him with the front tire as he came up on me. I then kept the bioke between him and me. The wife now aware by the barking comes out and yells at me for teasing and hitting the dog with your bike. I yell back get your dog off me and I will stop hitting him with my bike.  She called to police. Police arrived I explained what happened and told them the dog was out now. I owuld ride by on the far side to show how I was not teasing but just going by. The police saw it and then went and knocked on her door. The police explained to the landlord that they now believe all the other cases. They moved out in a couple of months. 

Point here, pay attention and use weapons and kept distance and always look at them do not turn your back and run when they begin to chase as this is predator prey metality. (* PS I rode by real slow so as not to have the chase sense go off on the dog *)

On another case, I had to go into a place to explain to the owners that the skulls of the goats and other animals they hung on our business fence (* shared proeprty line *) were not acceptable behaviour. The dogs were all mean and would chase any one who tried to walk in. If one drove in with a vehicle they came up to it but staid out of range to not get hit. 

 Point was that there was about a 3 foot wide path that zig zagged through their property to get through the 12+ dogs. (* Later they were busted for drugs. *) I walked through by looking at each animal and letting it know I was there and not afraid of it. Some came to their limit to look and others barked but I made no quick motions and no fear actions. 

I got through the guantlet and owners of the place were very surprised I had made it though. Where by they apologized for the skulls and took them down and watched me leave back out. (* Note: They did not call the dogs off, they were jerk and wanted to see how I did it. *) 

I once encountered a dog that wanted a piece of me in my own yard. I had no immediate weapon and no place to get up high or no place to move to. I smiled at the dog (* Showed my teeth *) I then growled, (* Yes I know it was a challenge *), and then I told the dog as I walked forward slowly like I was stalking it, that I was going to kill it. I am going to kill you you little ..., .  The dog backed off enough for me to get to the shed door where a rake was. I grabbed it and then I place it between us and continued to walk towards the dog stalking it.  The dog was not happy, and when I got to place where I could swing I tried to kill the dog with the swing. I then yelled and kept after the dog, unitl it was way up the road in front of me. Then I just stopped  in the road and staid there waiting to see if it was going to turn around and come back. 

Point is to not show fear. Do not loose eye contact. Do not turn your back. Let the dog know it may win but it will not survive much longer than you. Unless it is sick, it's survival instinct should realize that this is nto the right place and time.


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## Cruentus (May 27, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> I had a neighbor next door with twin Pits, and knew them from a few weeks old- up till about 9mos.,, and used to feed them treats and pet them. However, at around possibly the 6th month, they began making me pretty nervous by their building aggressive nature.


 
Usually it just appears that they are aggressive because they are energetic dogs who play a bit rough. 

A lot of success or failure with dealing with dogs is how you handle YOUR FEAR.

I have direct experience dealing with this because I have just started doing "helper work" for our protection group. That means, I get to be the assailent and I wear the bit arm and suit. So....that means that I have to deal with aggressive dogs (mostly shepards) biting at me.

From this experience, I can say that if you demonstrate leadership and no fear, you can greatly influence an animal vs. if you are fearful. Dogs know when you are fearful and can take advantage of that.

In order to build a up a fear tolerance, the only good solution is just to work with the dogs. Play with them...play tug, throw the toy, etc. You get to know how to deal with canine personalities that way.



> As to creating treats around with me, possibly a very good preventative measure- but since I don't know dogs well, is that a certain solution?
> Like, they get a treat, and then I'm their buddy...or just not their lunch?


 
Dogs don't see people as food on the food chain...lol....so no. Food is high on the priority list for most dogs. If you offer bits of food on a regular basis from a safe place (though a fence for example) then you can gradually build to being near the dog without having to worry about being attacked. Even the most aggressive dogs will generally not be aggressive to someone viewed as a "food bringer."


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## lonecoyote (May 27, 2006)

I own a rednose pit bull. My neighbor kept it on a foot and a half chain, no shelter, beat her and was probably going to fight her. When he went back to Mexico he just left her and I went and got her, early enough in her life so that now she is a good dog, does my miles with me every morning. It is not the dog, it is the owner. Unfortunately this breed does attract a certain kind of scumbag that will take what is wonderful about dogs, their desire to please, and twist it into something painful and horrible . On the average they are a little gamer than most dogs, they do love to play, exercise and gentleness is the key. I'd deal with a problem pit bull like i'd deal w/any problem dog. Don't run, stand your ground, make use of your opposable thumb (fill your hand).


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## Jade Tigress (May 27, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I once encountered a dog that wanted a piece of me in my own yard. I had no immediate weapon and no place to get up high or no place to move to. I smiled at the dog (* Showed my teeth *) I then growled, (* Yes I know it was a challenge *), and then I told the dog as I walked forward slowly like I was stalking it, that I was going to kill it. I am going to kill you you little ..., .  The dog backed off enough for me to get to the shed door where a rake was. I grabbed it and then I place it between us and continued to walk towards the dog stalking it.  The dog was not happy, and when I got to place where I could swing I tried to kill the dog with the swing. I then yelled and kept after the dog, unitl it was way up the road in front of me. Then I just stopped  in the road and staid there waiting to see if it was going to turn around and come back.
> 
> Point is to not show fear. Do not loose eye contact. Do not turn your back. Let the dog know it may win but it will not survive much longer than you. Unless it is sick, it's survival instinct should realize that this is nto the right place and time.


Awesome story Rich and it took a lot of presence of mind on your part to handle the situation as you did...all of them actually...but I really think this is the coolest one...growling and stuff at the dog...you got your point across to the animal that you were meaner than he was and it would be a mistake to attack you. I have heard that you should NEVER run from a dog but I didn't know about the eye contact. I thought that was bad too but obviously not...I guess you would WANT to appear aggressive and inimidating to the dog instead of trying to present yourself as a non-threat in that type of situation. Kudos. :asian:


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## Robert Lee (May 27, 2006)

This happened back in the mid 1980s. A friend of mine raised pitts took them to pulling matches He did not treat the dogs bad. Now he had a friend who also done this. And had a champion pit  That persons wife went out to feed the different dogs and when she fed this one as she had done many times it just jumped up and bit her whole ear off. It did not do any thing else It just got excited and she lost her ear. Now they had the dog put down. As they felt they lost control over it. and it was safer to put it down. A person just does not know when even a pet can just get violent. I know people that have pits AND they are not the local druggys. They ay how nice they are but then tell me how protective they are. That means nice to them but a friend maybe not so nice if the dog thinks it is protecting you. But yes other dogs even small ones can get mean at times. i think its best for small children not to be put around dogs that can harm or kill them in just one good bite. To many children have been the victom of a pit bull dog And are dead or maimed disfigured for life. And home owner insurance companys do not or will charge an extra high fee to cover dogs considered vicious. Is the dog worth one child being hurt i think the pit could be down sized to reduce its power and improve it temporment. Its my understanding Now i was told this so I might be wrong but the pug was once used as a large breed dog to hunt tigers And when it was used less they down sized it kept the pug look as they did so it could be a dog that could be handled safely as it had a violent attitude. And was large. Like I said I just told this So it may or may not be correct. But It is a truth in genatic breeding that it can be done.


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## Kacey (May 27, 2006)

While a fair number of people have been hurt by pit bulls, the statistics are not clear - because many dog-bite cases do not list breed *unless* it is a pit bull.  When I got my dog from the Dumb Friends' League, they told me first that he was a Chow Chow mix, and then that he was a German Shepherd mix... when I told his vet, the vet told me that the Dumb Friends' League labels 80% of the dogs they can't clearly identify by breed as one of those two, because they are the most likely to bite, and they don't want people coming back later to return the dog because they weren't warned.

*Any* dog can be mistreated, badly bred, or startled into aggressive behavior - it may be easier or harder with some dogs, but it can be done - just as it can be done with people.  Here are some sites that will provide additional information about pit bull breeds.  NOTE:  pit bull is a generic term for several breeds of terrier, the American Pit Bull Terrier, the American Staffordshire Terrier, and Staffordshire Bull Terrier being the most common.  

Also remember that the media needs to create sensations so that people will purchase/watch their news coverage, and thus be exposed to their advertising - and "man bitten by chihuahuas" just doesn't have the same ring to it.  Here is a link with some data about dog bites by breed:  http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/AllDogsBite.htm

And about some of the terrier breeds that fall into the 'pit bull' category
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/
http://www.badrap.org/rescue/
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/
http://www.apbtconformation.com/
http://www.ukcdogs.com/RegUKCBreeds.htm - look under "Terriers" for American Pit Bull Terrier
http://www.akc.org/breeds/american_staffordshire_terrier/index.cfm

From the American Kennel Club, at http://www.akc.org/breeds/staffordshire_bull_terrier/index.cfm


> *Temperament*
> From the past history of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the modern dog draws  its character of indomitable courage, high intelligence, and tenacity. This, coupled  with its affection for its friends, and children in particular, its off-duty quietness  and trustworthy stability, makes it a foremost all-purpose dog.



It is easy to blame the deed - harder to blame the person who raised the dog, but the latter is where the true blame lies in the vast majority of cases.


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## Cruentus (May 28, 2006)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> I own a rednose pit bull. My neighbor kept it on a foot and a half chain, no shelter, beat her and was probably going to fight her. When he went back to Mexico he just left her and I went and got her, early enough in her life so that now she is a good dog, does my miles with me every morning. It is not the dog, it is the owner. Unfortunately this breed does attract a certain kind of scumbag that will take what is wonderful about dogs, their desire to please, and twist it into something painful and horrible . On the average they are a little gamer than most dogs, they do love to play, exercise and gentleness is the key. I'd deal with a problem pit bull like i'd deal w/any problem dog. Don't run, stand your ground, make use of your opposable thumb (fill your hand).


 
Good story.

Pit Bulls are resilient breeds. There are many stories of them overcoming great amounts of abuse to be wonderful pets. The worst thing you can do to a pit bull is neglect, actually. Pit Bulls seem to have a much harder time springing back from neglect then from abuse.

That said, this was an interesting discussion where information about the breed came up: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24874&highlight=Pit+Bull

I advice all of you, if you haven't already, to view my last post where I provided a link to a very compelling video...

Paul


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## rompida (May 28, 2006)

Sorry Paul, but I have to disagree with you...

1) Yes pit bulls can make great pets, but neglect and abuse alone don't make a mean pit bull.  These great pets have "snapped" and attacked their owners, with no reason.  They are unpredictable.

2) Yes, dogs can sense fear, but as in my case, the dog never even stopped to check me out.  Just came bounding toward me and lept for my throat.  I didn't have time to show fear.  

I kind of view Pit Bulls the way I do AK-47s.  The gun was made for killing-plain and simple.  Sure, I could use it to go deer hunting, but that's not what it was made for, and not what most use it for.  Pits were NOT bred to be pets.  They were bred for pulling and fighting.  People are attracted to their power and the rep they have earned for being dangerous.  Sure, they can make great pets, but you can't undo generations of selective breeding for aggressive traits.  That's why some state have outlawed the breed.  

I'm an animal lover to the core - but I put self preservation above it.


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## Rich Parsons (May 28, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> Awesome story Rich and it took a lot of presence of mind on your part to handle the situation as you did...all of them actually...but I really think this is the coolest one...growling and stuff at the dog...you got your point across to the animal that you were meaner than he was and it would be a mistake to attack you. I have heard that you should NEVER run from a dog but I didn't know about the eye contact. I thought that was bad too but obviously not...I guess you would WANT to appear aggressive and inimidating to the dog instead of trying to present yourself as a non-threat in that type of situation. Kudos. :asian:



I am no expert.

Take this with a grain of salt how I made it through.

Nothing more.


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## lonecoyote (May 28, 2006)

Thanks Paul. Yes, dogs can "snap". Not just pit bulls snap. All kinds of dogs. But when a pit bull snaps, they always, always say pit bull. When a chow snaps, a german shepard snaps, a dalmation snaps (and they are a challenging dog, most folks who see that disney movie don't know that, they buy one for the kid, and don't realize what they're in for) the news just says a dog snapped. All dogs can do it, not just pit bulls. A lot of breeds are unpredictable. Yes they were bred mainly for the pit. They were not bred for pets, but you know most dogs weren't bred for pets, they were bred for a purpose, guarding stock animals, hunting large and dangerous game, etc. Every dog from the poodle to the dachsund (badgers) was bred for a hard core purpose that doesn't necessarily make for a good pet. Some people are attracted to their power and rep, thats true, maybe those are also the kind of people that abuse them.


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## Lisa (May 28, 2006)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> Thanks Paul. Yes, dogs can "snap". Not just pit bulls snap. All kinds of dogs. But when a pit bull snaps, they always, always say pit bull. When a chow snaps, a german shepard snaps, a dalmation snaps (and they are a challenging dog, most folks who see that disney movie don't know that, they buy one for the kid, and don't realize what they're in for) the news just says a dog snapped. All dogs can do it, not just pit bulls. A lot of breeds are unpredictable. Yes they were bred mainly for the pit. They were not bred for pets, but you know most dogs weren't bred for pets, they were bred for a purpose, guarding stock animals, hunting large and dangerous game, etc. Every dog from the poodle to the dachsund (badgers) was bred for a hard core purpose that doesn't necessarily make for a good pet. Some people are attracted to their power and rep, thats true, maybe those are also the kind of people that abuse them.



Can you elaborate on the Dalmation comment?  I have had a Dalmation for 13 years.  She is sweet and kind and loving.  Never had a problem with her and never recalled anyone ever having one either.  You have peaked my curiosity. 

Thanks.


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## lonecoyote (May 28, 2006)

Hi, Lisa, I'm sure you've never had any problems and you're a great dog owner. As far as dalmatians being challenging, I've read a few things over the internet www.dalmatians.us/dal4u.html is one and I've heard a few things by word of mouth. I am not saying they are not a good breed of dog, just saying that responsible dog ownership is the key to preventing attacks, not witch hunting a certain breed of dog.


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## TigerWoman (May 28, 2006)

I had a run in with a pit bull lately.  I had taken my two poodles for a walk to the park.  Ones a female, and the other a neutered male pup.  The new park caretaker has a house on the corner of the park as I entered. While he was helping his wife, baby and stroller out of the car, here comes the dog across the parking lot in a flash.  I got myself between the dog and my frantic poodles.  I was glad that Ninja did not choose that moment to be aggressive.  The dog was a male and mine were being submissive though terrified and behind me but I didn't read any signals other than wanting to sniff them. The owner finally ran over and put a hand around the collar and it was over.  We do have leash laws so I reminded him it could have been alot worse all around. Shook me up though.

I had been reading a book on aggression, "Aggression in Dogs" Practical Management, Prevention and Behavior Modification.  Brenda Aloff, author.
I got it through Dogwise.com  

They have some tips on fending off aggressive dogs but I don't know if citronella spray, or even pepper spray in that situation would have helped. It would have been difficult to get to the spray let alone handle my dogs and get it directed at the pit bull.  Then I could spray myself too, there is always that possibility. Nor would dropped treat pieces have helped if the dog was on a mission, even if they were large pieces of steak. They also say to use an umbrella but get your dogs used to it being opened and closed. It's to provide a distraction as the dog mangles that, you get away supposedly.  

In the case of the pit bull actually going aggressively after your leg or neck, there might not be much time.  I remember scrambling up on a car once to get away from a doberman mix.  There isn't much time. Neither was there much time (same park same day) when just a few minutes later while sitting on the bench, when another loose dog-a boxer caused another melee.  I'm carrying my pepper spray now and not walking by the park caretaker's house anymore.  And I think walking one dog is enough, so I would be able to hoist the dog in the air.  Although in the book, that can be a signal for aggressive behavior too but have done that several times in the past.  Two frantic dogs is too much. TW


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## Cruentus (May 28, 2006)

rompida said:
			
		

> Sorry Paul, but I have to disagree with you...
> 
> I kind of view Pit Bulls the way I do AK-47s. The gun was made for killing-plain and simple.


 
Your post is filled with superstition rather then substancial fact.

- According to the American Temperment Society breed statistics, "Pit Bulls" outperformed the Golden Retriever in Temperment tests consistantly over the last 5 years. They consistantly perform better then most dogs (over 95%); this means that Pits consistantly show no aggression when put in strange circumstances with strange people. 

- According to a study done on Fatal Dog attacks by animal behaviorist Karen Delise; the critical factors that contributed to fatel dog attacks were owner responsability, function of the dog, and reproductive status. In almost 500 cases, she was unable to find one where any dog "turned" on their master. Also, she was unable to find ANY case of a fatal attack by a single, neutered, household Pit Bull.

- You will, in fact, find no scientific study that points to the idea of any dog breed being prone to "turning" on its master.

- Research on Dog fighting and Bull baiting will show you evidence that in fighting dogs, the tendancy to bite a human was bred out of the dog, not into it. Pits are genetically predisposed to showing animal aggression, not human aggression. This was because in dog fights, the handlers and the refs had to be in the ring with the dog; therefore a dog prone to bite a human was generally put down.

There are a lot of websites and books that have more information on the breed; I suggest that you objectively do some searches on this info. You can still feel free to disagree with me, however the evidence is overwhelming stacked against your opinion...

Paul


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## Cruentus (May 28, 2006)

Lisa said:
			
		

> Can you elaborate on the Dalmation comment? I have had a Dalmation for 13 years. She is sweet and kind and loving. Never had a problem with her and never recalled anyone ever having one either. You have peaked my curiosity.
> 
> Thanks.


 
Dalmations are genetically predisposed to showing fearful aggression in unfamiliar circumstances. They consistantly score very low on temperment tests.

In there defense, I would score low on temperment tests too if skinny old ladies where constantly after my coat...:uhyeah: 

However, your dog goes to show that proper socialization, care, and love can make almost any dog a great pet, regardless of temperment stats.


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## Cruentus (May 28, 2006)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> They have some tips on fending off aggressive dogs but I don't know if citronella spray, or even pepper spray in that situation would have helped. It would have been difficult to get to the spray let alone handle my dogs and get it directed at the pit bull. Then I could spray myself too, there is always that possibility.


 
I concur.

Pepper spray is a great solution, but accessing it before an incident occurs while controlling your dogs is a real problem for all of us. 

Paul


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## Henderson (May 28, 2006)

I really can't believe all the fear people have relating to a certain breed.  See links below...

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americanstaffordshire.htm

http://www.terrificpets.com/dog_breeds/American_Staffordshire_Terriers.asp

http://www.dog-breeds.net/American_Staff_Terrier.htm

http://www.dogbiz.com/dogs-grp4/amstaff/amstaff.htm

These are just a few UNBIASED links to reviews of breed temperament that praise the American Staffordshire Terrier as what they really are; loyal, protective, sturdy dogs.

Just as an aside.....I've been bitten by dogs 5 times.  In EVERY instance the offending pooch was a tiny rat of a dog weighing no more than 15 lbs.

Any dog can be made mean, nasty, and vicious if treated poorly and neglected.  My next-door neighbor has the most unsocial Labrador Retriever I've ever seen.


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## Jade Tigress (May 29, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> Just as an aside.....I've been bitten by dogs 5 times.  In EVERY instance the offending pooch was a tiny rat of a dog weighing no more than 15 lbs.
> 
> Any dog can be made mean, nasty, and vicious if treated poorly and neglected.  My next-door neighbor has the most unsocial Labrador Retriever I've ever seen.



Good points. And I have also observed that small dogs can be some of the meanest little things...especially chihuahas...my friend had one that bit all the time..and my step-dad said he had a cocker spaniel as a kid that was the meanest dog he ever saw.


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## Paul B (May 29, 2006)

As others have rightly pointed out..ANY dog has the potential for aggression. Educate yourself about canine behavioral traits and be a good owner..if everyone did these two things we wouldn't have threads like this. 

As others have said..do not run away..this will only kick in the dogs prey drive and make them more excitable. Turn to the the side and "sidle" away..this is taking a page directly from the doggy social code..it says "I don't know who you think you're barking at,but I am not here to cause problems." 

I would,however carry pepper spray or a nice cane or stick.an umbrella to open and make yourself appear larger,plus add distracting noise..would be even better. I know that around NW Indiana and Chicago there are many,many irresponsible owners who breed and use their dogs for the worst and most cruel reasons. I am a big supporter of MARS (Midwest Akita Rescue) and the Lake County Humane Society. All the stories I have heard 99.9% of the time is attributable to the lack of education and responsibility on the owners/breeders part. Educate yourself.


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## TigerWoman (May 29, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> .
> 
> Just as an aside.....I've been bitten by dogs 5 times.  In EVERY instance the offending pooch was a tiny rat of a dog weighing no more than 15 lbs.
> 
> Any dog can be made mean, nasty, and vicious if treated poorly and neglected.  My next-door neighbor has the most unsocial Labrador Retriever I've ever seen.



My now, 7 lb. poodle pup has an aggressive streak which I have to nip in the bud.  He has gotten ahold of the Culligan's guy jean. He has gone after the mailman, the plumber, the electrician and all of my son's friends.  No bites yet. He would lunge toward all the dogs on our walks but I have been putting him into sits and gotten inbetween.  My 5th poodle and he's not like any of my others, nor like his mama.  So, maybe he has some breeding genetics for aggression.  I certainly have been working on it from day one. But now with some education, I have a better idea of what to do.  We have alot of work to do.  I don't think it takes just a mean owner to have an aggressive dog as this is one of the most pampered dogs on this planet. I also had a German Shepherd who was a pussycat. He was professionally tested and failed miserably. Wanted to climb the wall to get out to get away from the boogeyman. But he was a great running partner and who knows he might have defended me. TW


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## Henderson (May 29, 2006)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> I certainly have been working on it from day one. But now with some education, I have a better idea of what to do. We have alot of work to do.


 
And therein lies the key to responsible dog ownership.  I only wish more people took your view, TW.


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## Paul B (May 29, 2006)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> My now, 7 lb. poodle pup has an aggressive streak which I have to nip in the bud. He has gotten ahold of the Culligan's guy jean. He has gone after the mailman, the plumber, the electrician and all of my son's friends. No bites yet. He would lunge toward all the dogs on our walks but I have been putting him into sits and gotten inbetween. My 5th poodle and he's not like any of my others, nor like his mama. So, maybe he has some breeding genetics for aggression. I certainly have been working on it from day one. But now with some education, I have a better idea of what to do. We have alot of work to do. I don't think it takes just a mean owner to have an aggressive dog as this is one of the most pampered dogs on this planet. I also had a German Shepherd who was a pussycat. He was professionally tested and failed miserably. Wanted to climb the wall to get out to get away from the boogeyman. But he was a great running partner and who knows he might have defended me. TW


 
Good work. Taking charge is the first step in reeling in that aggression. It sounds very much like territorial-based aggression and the message needs to be sent in no uncertain terms that it is YOU who are in charge. Sometimes "pampering" does as much harm as good,though..and people let the dog have "Alpha" position..bad news. 

It's funny in the sense that in the smaller breeds there isn't as much concern for breeding aggression in or out of the line..and in the end you have a snarling poodle or cocker spaniel or rat terrier,etc..which is just as much a problem as it would be in a larger breed. Kudo's for stepping up,TW.


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## Robert Lee (May 29, 2006)

Dogs like other pets a person should look into the thought Do they have the time needed to care for it and spend time with it. But still any dog can change it can just not like a person and bite. And breeds that are more prone to will more often do so around strange people.  A person should never keep a dog if they do not have a place that keeps it safe and where it can noit get to other people. Never let it rome free with the exception of country liveing. Dogs are no different then people what you see as gentle when its not in your sight it can get mean. You may not see it so you may think its not a mean dog. to others I still think the pit bull should be bred different to help insure it will not harm children at least one time a year In my state you here that a pit attcked and either killed or injuryed a small child very badly The state has looked into passing a owners libilty law where the owners MUST keep there pit behind a fully enclosed 6 foot tall double fence.And carry at least a 200,000 dollar insurance policy. It has not been approved  But if you look being a dog owner is no different then having a child. You have to take care and treat it right and you are responsible if and when it ever bites any person. I am not afraid of any dog breed at all. But I know I would never have certion breeds and live near small children or have small children around them. I believe the same for cat owners it seems most cat owners think it is fine to let there cat roam not all but there sure is alot of people that think a cat can can just run free when they let it out. They kill birds  and other smal animals. dig through the trash. And should not beallowed to roam free. Most cities have a law stating cats are not allowed to run free But they do not enforce it like they do on dogs.


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## OUMoose (May 29, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> One more thing I just thought of....and I don't know if this is a good idea or not so chime in with your thoughts.
> But...what about buying some really yummy treats and tossing them to the dogs whenever you see them...whether they are leashed or not...and maybe they would come to associate you with good things and not be aggressive toward you. ???


Sounds like a good idea, but knowing my luck the dog would have a food allergy or something, and the treat would put it into shock.  The owner would come out and sue me since she would say I tried to kill his/her animal.  

I think in the case of dogs, avoidance and awareness would be the best tools.


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## Calm Intention (May 30, 2006)

I appreciate all the responses,  and although some have mentioned how the owners treatment of the dog being a factor in their temperment, and also some of the other breeds with nasty dispositions,  I really don't know if I should fear a poodle as I might a Pit.
Like,  a Pit has that 1,800 lb. jaw pressure,  the 'bus proof' skull,  musculature that would please Vince McMahon and the W.W.F., etc.

Other than singing sweet lullabyes  while telling the loose Pit that his mother was a real saint and his father a gentleman(hey, it may confuse him ),,  I like the jacket over his head,  the rack of beef hidden in my breast pocket,  and Mike Tyson at age 22(with the glare in his eye).


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## Cruentus (May 30, 2006)

You do have to decide, eventually, how you want to live your life, and how you want to handle fear and intimidation.

Sure, Pit Bulls have a more athletic disposition then most dogs, and therefore COULD be more dangerous.

However, to fear Pit Bulls because of their physicality would be just as irrational as fearing a person because they were really big, or really athletic. 

I personally am not going to cringe or cower or be really worried every time I run into someone bigger/stronger/faster then me. I will always be aware and have my self-defense plan in order, regardless of who I am dealing with. I also, hate to bring it up, but have a level of optimism and trust in a higher power, and believe that as long as I am taking personal responsability for my own self-defense and that of my family and community, then it'll all work out in the end. Because of all of this, I don't live in fear of anyone.

The same ideas hold true with animals of any kind, not just dogs. You take the precautions and responsability for yourself to not be careless, and you have nothing to fear. It doesn't matter if it is a Pit, a Crock, or a bear. So, you live your life with some level of serenity.

So, I guess it is all up to the individual as to how one wants to live his life; with serenity and optimism or fear and discomfort. It's all up to each of us, I guess....

Paul Janulis


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## Hand Sword (May 30, 2006)

Great point! Dogs will definitely pick up on fear and will become more agressive. A sense of confidence will aid you greatly against dogs or human attackers.


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## JamesDraegun (Jun 1, 2006)

All these are good points as well, as its good know that you must not only watch your surroundings, but also be aware that animals (especially dogs) pick up more on emotion than words and looks.

I'm in a pit-bull dilema myself it seems. I visit my good friend about once a week (since we've moved away from her), and have seen her neighborhood go downhill (with the worst being farther down into the culdasac), though not too bad. Across from her house a couple have moved in about 4 months ago. They had one child, one chocolate labrador, and one half-breed female pitbull (the other half I believe was lab as well). And while the dog has never attacked anyone, it does show itself to be a little aggressive.
One time, my friend was carrying cardboard to the couple's place (they needed some for the new litter of pups the pitbull had just had, which made me think this is the reason for the pits anger to any strangers, but the pups were well inside, and the pit has always been mean), and i was carrying some too.
As we got close to the house (the couple and the dogs were outside, unleashed, as are all the pets in this neighborhood are), the pitbull and the lab came over to sniff us. The lab was a good happy dog, and nearly made me fall when it jumped up to lick my face. The pitbull, though, didnt like me so much. I stopped to let it sniff my hand, and didnt have any fear in me at all, just gave the feeling of reassuring. The pit smelled my hand, backed off, then just looked at me. I thought it was saying: Youre okay, but as I got closer to the house, the dog began to bark a little at me. We stopped halfway up the driveway to put down the cardboard down, and the pit started barking a lot more. The owners at first just said calmly quiet, but they didnt realize too much it wasnt working. The pit soon started growling at me, so I held on to the cardboard, and turned around to it.
Thats when it made what looked like an attempt to rush at me, so put the cardboard in front of me, and made a step forward, and put the meanest face I could on my face. The pit then hesitated for a second, and it probably still wouldve attacked had the owners not came over, grab it, and put it inside.

Now, that dog has attacked another dog before, and Im worried it might progress to attacking a person next. The couple that live there are nice, but it looks like they dont realize that the pit is aggressive as they thought. Of course, the pit might just get used to me and calm down but even if it does, it could just as well attack another innocent stranger.A question: would pulling on the ears of a big eared dog do anything, and/or slapping the ear of an open eared dog have the same effect it would on a human (which, if you put enough force and cup your hand, you can put massive pressure on the persons eardrum, and cause enough pain to stop anyone of any size)?

Now, Im going to try to be the pits friend first, but this is just in case that doesnt work and/or it attacks anyhow.


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## TonyMac (Jun 1, 2006)

Lots of good stuff said here. Never met a mean pit bull. Have only been bit by a shelty and a skiperke. Don't put off vibes.


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## Wing Chun Dummy (Jun 1, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> This may be out of the box, but its a concern none-the-less, and maybe others here have asked themselves the same question:
> 
> "How do you defend yourself against a pit-bull"?
> My neighborhood is really going down hill, and for whatever reason, it seems as this trend grows, so does the presence of 'the new neighbors' owning pit-bulls.:idunno:
> ...


 
Kick it hard in the face, stamp hard on the nose, eyes and top of head. If all else fails, climb a tree or something.

Generally don't go around picking fights with them though.


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## Drac (Jun 1, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Like, a Pit has that 1,800 lb. jaw pressure, the 'bus proof' skull, musculature that would please Vince McMahon and the W.W.F., etc


 
Recently heard from a LEO brother that was charged by an angry Pit and he had to put it down..I won't tell you how many shots he discharged before it dropped..




			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Mike Tyson at age 22(with the glare in his eye).


 
That would scare me too...LOL


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## Stealth (Jun 1, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> I'll just say in the first case, I tried to befriend this pit, and although I was frighened, for whatever reason, this dog(after running directly at me from across the street), seemed more like he needed a friend possibly- followed me for 3 blocks and ran off.
> The 2nd time, just the grace from above- I'm too embarrassed to tell you what I thought would work; but, these dogs dont care much about human psychology to say the least.


 
I live in a *Very* bad neighborhood...  Many of the local "Distributors" own Pits.  There are probably about 12 in between the 3 apartment buildings on my side of the complex.  I have never had ANY problems with ANY of them.  If you don't act scared they *typically* won't act aggressive.  One of them came at me barking and acting like it was going to attack, I simply yelled at it in a very loud and deep voice to "BACK UP"   It knew I was the boss...  If you act scared and run it will feel that it is dominate.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 1, 2006)

Shoot it.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 2, 2006)

Pits are not invincible; it drives me nuts to read some of the fear-based crap that people have around dogs. If you're in the martial arts, hopefully (again, hopefully) you will have learned a couple strikes and kicks. 

If a dog attacks you, BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF IT!!!! Pick it up, slam it down, and stomp the hell out if it. Stick your fingers knuckle-deep into it's eye sockets. Grab the windpipe like a broom stick, squeeze as hard as you can, and shake the heck out of the thing by this death grip YOU NOW HAVE ON IT!!!

I've had many altercations with puffed up pooches, and come out of all of them on top (even posted a few here on MT, on this very subject). Including pits, dobies, mastiffs, rotties, shepards...you can break their ribs, punch them in the throat repeatedly, place them in choke holds and steal their life if you like. You do not have to walk in fear. QUIT IT! Defense starts as an attitude, first...that the predator attacking you has just made the mistake of starting in on a bigger, badder predator. Pitbull on, say, an 800 pound lion? 1200 pound tiger? They don't know you're not, until you let them.

I love dogs, and refuse to be afraid of them (have 4 now, along with 3 parrots and a rat). Most every pit I've met has been an adorable sloppy-kissing sweetheart, and they typically have silly, happy, playful personalities if you give them half a chance. For the few who have had the joy of life abused out of them by jackhole owners, just remember your basics. 

And remember attitude...when you're at the top of the food chain, everything else is just uncooked lunch.

Regards,

Dave


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## Ceicei (Jun 2, 2006)

Yes, even animals have their weak points anatomically.  People tend to forget that and focus too much on the teeth and legs....

- Ceicei


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## Wing Chun Dummy (Jun 2, 2006)

but animals are true to their nature. not slowed down by knowledge, their reactions are instant. 

poke the pit bull in the eyes? i would expect to lose my hand. pick it up? with full body armour, maybe!

kick it with the hardest part of ur shoe! pick something else up and defend yourself like ur serious.


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## fireman00 (Jun 2, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I will start my response with this:
> 
> *As to a self-defense plan:*
> 
> ...


 
I own three dogs, 95lb (male)  90lb (female) and 57 lbs (female) the two females have had 4 blood letting fights over the a three 3 year period over minor issues; the last two times I've tried pepper spray (*First Defense&#174; MK4 Police Size 10% Pepper Spray from GALLS.COM).*   The adrenaline rush allowed both dogs to continue their death grip on each other's throat for almost a full minute - this was after I emptied a 3oz container in their faces.   After the minute was up the dogs finally loosened their grip and I could get them apart.   In the meantime, I was coughing, tearing up and 'bout ready to vomit while the dogs were still hanging on to one another. 

I would be VERY leery in making pepper spray my first choice, not to say that I wouldn't use it but its not the end all.  I would get on top of a car, up a tree, fence, ANYTHING at least 3 feet off the ground that a dog would be hard pressed to climb.

If there was nothing available I'd try to get something between me and the dog, a lawn chair, garbage can lid, a kid's trike/ bike or a stoller.

If that failed I'd work on the snout and eyes.  Although as has been mentioned by other folks, once certain breeds latch on to a limb its VERY hard to get them to off.


Side note: I've learned that keeping the females in separate parts of the house at night has resolved their "issue" God knows what it was, and there hasn't been any fighting in over a year.


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## Paul B (Jun 3, 2006)

That isn't an uncommon situation for females (especially dominant females) of the same breed/size to have tiffs over the top spot under the male..any male. Dogs naturally try to sort themselves into pack position and by having two clearly dominant females it throws the pack into disorder. Spaying may only serve to worsen the aggressiveness in females,also. I don't know if you have done that yet,so..:idunno: 

Anytime you have an "independent thinking" breed..it's best for everyone involved to own male/female pairs..unless both dogs are naturally submissive in that case it's up to your own judgement. Temperamant testing and dominance training early can go a long way towards saving some headaches down the road. 

If you haven't done any obedience training..it could do nothing but help your situation.Giving them their own space at night as you have done might pay off in the short run..but I would be very careful in the future in allowing them to interact.


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## Cruentus (Jun 4, 2006)

fireman00 said:
			
		

> I own three dogs, 95lb (male) 90lb (female) and 57 lbs (female) the two females have had 4 blood letting fights over the a three 3 year period over minor issues; the last two times I've tried pepper spray (*First Defense® MK4 Police Size 10% Pepper Spray from GALLS.COM).* The adrenaline rush allowed both dogs to continue their death grip on each other's throat for almost a full minute - this was after I emptied a 3oz container in their faces. After the minute was up the dogs finally loosened their grip and I could get them apart. In the meantime, I was coughing, tearing up and 'bout ready to vomit while the dogs were still hanging on to one another.
> 
> I would be VERY leery in making pepper spray my first choice, not to say that I wouldn't use it but its not the end all. I would get on top of a car, up a tree, fence, ANYTHING at least 3 feet off the ground that a dog would be hard pressed to climb.


 
That is all fine and good and your opinion, but pepper spray use is a commonly taught part of the force continuum against dogs because it is fairly reliable. Delivery men, mail men, and even cops (who carry guns, but might not want to risk shooting a bystander) are commonly taught too use OC against dogs and other animals because it generally works.

However, it is worth saying that OC Spray will have a tendency to work on a dog more reliably before it bites rather then after; the shock from the spray when the dog is in the middle of the fight and biting may cause the dog to "freeze" rather then to let go, which will result in a "locked on" jaw and the apparent continuation of the fight.

This could account for your experience.

However, of course nothing is 100% reliable in combat. But if it is mostly reliable and efffective then it is valid.

Some other decent advise in the rest of your post though....except I would reconsider your 3 foot rule. I work with dogs who can easily clear 6 foot obsticles - your mileage will vary on that one.


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## Last Fearner (Jun 28, 2006)

Ok, I'm going to skip right over the "breed" issue, and the bad treatment by owners, and get right to the topic of self defense against a dog.  Some valid points have been made, but I would like to speak directly from my experience.

First, let me tell you what that experience is.  When I was nine years old, in 1969, I was attacked by neighbor's Alaskan Malamute Husky, and nearly mauled to death.  It took my brother, and the dog's owner less than a minute to pull the dog off me, yet I received eight bites requiring more than 200 stitches.  Among other bites, my left ear was torn half off, there was a hole to the bone in my leg, and another hole in my arm that went all the way through the elbow.  The dog was later put down.

Regardless of the reason the dog was so mean, I nearly died because of it.  My fear of dogs will never fully go away, and I don't think anyone who has never been nearly mauled to death, can fully understand that.  I have learned to deal with the apprehension, and how to protect myself if a dog attacks.  It enrages me to see dog owners take such a light stance about restraining their animals, waiting until the dog has barked, growled at, and even lunged toward a friendly visitor or passer-by before they intervene.

There are way too many *true* stories about children, and adults being murdered by these "pets."  I have had to deal with several of my neighbors being inconsiderate with their dogs on the loose.  I am currently dealing with one huge german shepard that the owner says is a "big friendly puppy," but it has tried to attack me several times, and once broke free of a chain to run full speed onto my property, right toward me.

Since I started training in the Martial Art, I have done extensive research on dog behavior, and methods of self defense against them.  I don't back down from these animals.  Twice, i have dropped dogs, completely unconscious, with roundhouse kicks to the side of the head.  I think dogs make good pets in most cases, but even the best pet among family members, can bite their owners, injure or kill a child, and will very likely become aggressive to a stranger.  The number of dog bites, and outright attacks that occur every year, and virtually every day, are evidence to this fact.  Not to argue that there won't be hundreds of people here who will say, "not my dog," or "it depends on how the dog is treated," but this is not always the case, and for whatever reason a dog attacks, people must learn to defend properly.

When attacked by a vicious dog, most people will freeze, or run, and we know this is not good.  The worst advice I've heard, came from so-called dog experts on tv saying to just clam up, and hope the dog stops biting (I could slap someone upside the head for that kind of advice).  Facing the dog, and giving a stern shout is often a good method of intimidating a relatively obedient pet.  Using objects in between, such as a bicycle can be effective.  Rather than pepper spray, I usually carry one of those black 35 mm film cases full of Black Pepper.  Flip the top and dump it in the dog's face.  If the dog is close enough, or already biting you, dump the pepper right in his nostrils.  This works for human attackers as well.

To avoid getting bit, use an article of clothing wadded up around your hand, or remove a shoe and offer that in your hand.  Don't let go of the shoe.  As they bite it, reach with your other hand, and grasp the top of the snout.  This control works well, and allows you to do many options.  While holding the snout, you can punch the nose.  You can reach under the jaw, avoiding the teeth, grasp the throat, and lift the front of the dog up exposing its stomach.  A front kick to the groin, or stomach will cause the dog great pain.  If the dog is overly aggressive, and acts like it wants to kill you, you can gouge the eyes, or grab the lower jaw from the bottom, and twist the upper and lower in opposite directions to snap the jaw.

If a dog has a grip on your arm, and won't let go, slip a finger near the back of the lip, away from the teeth, into the dogs throat, causing a gag reflex (sounds strange, but it works. This is similar to how to get a horse to open its mouth and take a bit).  In desperate situations, you can grab a dog's lower jaw, with your hand deep inside its mouth, and clamp down.  You risk getting bit here, but they will struggle to open their mouth and get away.  Grabbing the dog's tongue has the same effect.  If a dog is biting your hand, grab the fur and skin on the back of the neck, and, instead of trying to pull your hand out of the mouth, shove it down the dog's throat.  

People may scoff at these suggestions, but they do work, and if you are under deadly attack, fight the dog like you would fight a person.  A kick to a dog's legs can break the leg.  Stomp on the dog's spine, and it will damage it.  The under belly is more sensitive to strikes than the ribs.  As mentioned before, squeezing the throat will have a similar effect as it does with people.  If a dog charges, and leaps at you, front kick the stomach straight on, or side step to avoid, and front kick up into the stomach. These tips are for serious situations, and when "negotiations" have failed.

If my self defense suggestions are not clear, and anyone has questions, or disagrees, please feel free to post your comments, and I will be more than happy to reply.  I love pets when they are well behaved, and I do not advocate hurting animals except in self defense.  These tips I have offered have been tested, used, and do work.

CM D. J. Eisenhart


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## Wing Chun Dummy (Jun 30, 2006)

What will get you killed unnecessarily is your agressive, intimidating posturing. Have a serious and assertive manner about protecting yourself but don't try intimidating it. 

All the stuff above may work but can also confuse people. Just defend yourself like you're serious, but only when necessary. No intimidation. Same applies to humans. It's like the person who talks a lot - u never expect them to be strong in a real fight.


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## Cruentus (Jul 1, 2006)

I don't have a lot of time (busy weekend) so I'll just briefly outline a few points.

#1. The vast majority of dogs will listen to the calm-assertive person. Domestic dogs are genetically predisposed to listen and obey human being. We have records of the domestic dog as far back as we have records of human beings (within the first 100 years I believe). 

Most dogs, even the sick or hurt dog, will not attack a human; and the ones that might will not do so with the determination to kill (they might snap or nip, but won't continue a full force attack to the death). This is regardless of breed. So, when we are talking about "dog defense," keep in mind that we are really refering too less than 1% of the dog population.

#2. Do not be fearful, then. If you are calm assertive and not afraid, you will be able to disipate most potential dog attacks by a simple order, "Get!" or "Go home!" or something of the kind. There is no reason to be fearful (just respectful and not careless) considering that the statistical probability of being attacked is very low, and the probability of being killed or seriously injured is even lower. There has been only 540 recorded deaths from dog attacks since 1965.

#3. Not being fearful is important because dogs can sense your mood, and will react accordingly. When I do "helper work" in protection (I'm in a bite suit or sleeve) I can manipulate the dogs mood and aggression to a degree (which we do to aid the training session) through nonverbal communication and mood (I will try to induce fear in myself, or I will tense my muscles to and think aggressively, etc., all to elicite a particular response from the dog).

So, if you are fearful and don't FEEL in control, the dog will know it, and will be less likely to obey you. This is why your calm assertive mindset is so important.

More, later, maybe....got to go!



Paul Janulis


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## spinkick (Jul 6, 2006)

No disrespect but dont be a puss.  People didn't get to be the dominant species by taking crap from a pitbull gouge his darn eyes out.  Everytime someone tells me about someone getting attacked by a pitbull i get really upset because as scary as it might be I've been attacked by a German Shepard before  and crushed its throat with my hand...... you just have to get mean


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## Kwai chang caine (Jul 20, 2006)

Best advice is to try to get away first. Second use any weapon available. Remember that most dogs see looking them in the eyes as a challenge. However once a dog is allready upon you and you have to fight...go for the weakest points, gouge eyes, even a ravenous pit can have its eyes gouged, groin. The dogs bones are pretty thick so go for weakpoints. Avoid the teeth, and dodge and counter. It IS possible to win a fight with a pit-bull, you just have to be smarter and that is your advantage to a dog.


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## Kwai chang caine (Jul 20, 2006)

spinkick said:
			
		

> No disrespect but dont be a puss. People didn't get to be the dominant species by taking crap from a pitbull gouge his darn eyes out. Everytime someone tells me about someone getting attacked by a pitbull i get really upset because as scary as it might be I've been attacked by a German Shepard before and crushed its throat with my hand...... you just have to get mean



I agree...thats funny I didnt even read your post before I posted and we said such similar things.


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## Kwai chang caine (Jul 20, 2006)

One more thing...pit-bulls typically arent bad around people but other dogs.


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