# Boxing or American Kickboxing



## S-K-K

*Is boxing or American kickboxing strong? Would a boxer win over a American kickboxer?*


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## Anarax

S-K-K said:


> *Is boxing or American kickboxing strong? Would a boxer win over a American kickboxer?*



Obviously Turtle Hermit training beats them both


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## Dirty Dog

S-K-K said:


> *Is boxing or American kickboxing strong? Would a boxer win over a American kickboxer?*


Yes. And maybe. 
Seriously. That's the only valid answer.


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## MA_Student

Oh dear


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## Danny T

S-K-K said:


> *Is boxing or American kickboxing strong? Would a boxer win over a American kickboxer?*


Absolutely!! But, only on the 3rd Wednesday of the month on odd numbered years.


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## drop bear

is American kickboxing still a thing?


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## BobMc526

I studied both forms of boxing for several years when I was a younger man. There is really not a way to answer your question as it was presented. There are too many variable to really compare one style to another. The skill of the fighter, and maybe a little luck, will almost always be the deciding factor in who wins a particular fight. The style of fighting is secondary to that. However, I'll lay out a couple of scenarios with different assumptions that might help you decide, based on your reason for asking the original question.

Scenario 1: Sport Fighting
-The two fighters are physically equal
-Both fighters are are adhering to the rules of their sport
-Both fighters are experienced and equally skilled in their respective discipline. 

In this scenario I would expect the kick boxer have a slight advantage because he has twice as many options for striking at his disposal. Hands & feet vs just hands.

Scenario 2: Sport Fighting
-The two fighters are physically equal
-Both fighters are are adhering to the rules of their sport
-Both fighters are fairly new to their discipline...say less than 1 yr.

I would expect the traditional boxer to have the advantage in this fight, for exactly the opposite reason as in Scenario 1. The idea of practicing one punch a thousand time is better than a thousand punches one time. The traditional boxer will, in my experience gain skill more quickly, because he has only two weapons to master vs four. 

Scenario 3: Combative Fighting
In a real life combative scenario assumptions will get you beat up or killed. Combative fights are not planned and end in under a minute, in most cases.  If I were going to suggest to my brother one or the other of these arts for self defense, I would suggest traditional boxing. I have never been in a real fight where a kick was a huge benefit, but being able to use by hands effectively has saved me more than once.

Again, these answers are not meant to be idealistic or comprehensive, they are just based on my own experience.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> is American kickboxing still a thing?


Don't cloud the issue with relevant questions, DB.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

drop bear said:


> is American kickboxing still a thing?


Yup. In America at least. We just call it kickboxing.


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## drop bear

kempodisciple said:


> Yup. In America at least. We just call it kickboxing.



I thought it was the shiny pants style. Rather than say K1


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I thought it was the shiny pants style. Rather than say K1


"Shiny pants style" - I'm going to find the kanji for that and have it embroidered on my black belt.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> "Shiny pants style" - I'm going to find the kanji for that and have it embroidered on my black belt.



Or straight on to your shiny pants. Which I have always wanted a pair of.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Or straight on to your shiny pants. Which I have always wanted a pair of.


If I ever make it out your way (a lot of ocean between here and there, and a bit of land mass before the ocean), I'll bring you a pair as a gift.


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## Buka

Drop Bear in shiny pants? I just ain't seeing it.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> Drop Bear in shiny pants? I just ain't seeing it.


If he gets some, you know he'll post a pic. Then you will see it.


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## kickillustrated

Around 30 years ago I saw a 3 round exhibition bout in Miami Beach. Boxing champ Thomas Hearns took on Bill Wallace. It was a pretty good show and both guys displayed great skills. Wallace had the edge as long as his kicks came as a surprise to Tommy.

I think the great Joe Lewis once had a demo fight with Leon Spinks in the UK around the same time.


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## UserC

I think the style of the boxer is decisive. I expect prime Mike Tyson would wreck Benny Urquidez, Bill Wallace, Joe Louis. Finesse boxers like Larry Holmes and Muhammed Ali would lose.

Boxer vs. Kickboxer Art Jimmerson vs. Don Wilson

Just a sample of 1, with a few low kicks allowed per round, so not pure AKB rules.


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## UserC

kickillustrated said:


> Around 30 years ago I saw a 3 round exhibition bout in Miami Beach. Boxing champ Thomas Hearns took on Bill Wallace. It was a pretty good show and both guys displayed great skills. Wallace had the edge as long as his kicks came as a surprise to Tommy.
> 
> I think the great Joe Lewis once had a demo fight with Leon Spinks in the UK around the same time.




There's this forgotten match too, although it's a pure Karate champ with gloves on. Knees, Low kicks allowed for the Karateka! Exciting format


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## Hanshi

It depends on the fighters and not on their style.


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## UserC

Hanshi said:


> It depends on the fighters and not on their style.



Not true.


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## pdg

UserC said:


> Not true.



Source?


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## Gerry Seymour

UserC said:


> Not true.


Do you have a counterpoint?


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## UserC

gpseymour said:


> Do you have a counterpoint?



Yes. A finesse boxer, no matter if it's Floyd Mayweather jr, is going to get chopped down by kicks. A half decent power puncher, however,  will corner the kickboxer, stalk him, and win by KO inside 3 rounds. A boxer punches much harder, much faster, and with better combinations. This is a level of boxing intensity and range that the kickboxer will be unfamiliar with. The rules of American Kickboxing had to be changed (to kicking requirments per round) because the better boxer usually won.


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## UserC

QUOTE="pdg, post: 1898912, member: 38938"]Source?[/QUOTE]

That the rules of AKB were changed to discourage boxers from entering?


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## Gerry Seymour

UserC said:


> Yes. A finesse boxer, no matter if it's Floyd Mayweather jr, is going to get chopped down by kicks. A half decent power puncher, however,  will corner the kickboxer, stalk him, and win by KO inside 3 rounds. A boxer punches much harder, much faster, and with better combinations. This is a level of boxing intensity and range that the kickboxer will be unfamiliar with. The rules of American Kickboxing had to be changed (to kicking requirments per round) because the better boxer usually won.


Sounds like the fighter matters more than the style (boxer vs. kickboxer).


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## UserC

gpseymour said:


> Sounds like the fighter matters more than the style (boxer vs. kickboxer).



Well no. It doesn’t matter if it's Mayweather or a poor version of him. Either one is likely to lose. It doesn’t matter if it's Mike Tyson or a poor version of him, either one is likely to win.


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## Tez3

UserC said:


> Yes. A finesse boxer, no matter if it's Floyd Mayweather jr, is going to get chopped down by kicks. A half decent power puncher, however,  will corner the kickboxer, stalk him, and win by KO inside 3 rounds. A boxer punches much harder, much faster, and with better combinations. This is a level of boxing intensity and range that the kickboxer will be unfamiliar with. The rules of American Kickboxing had to be changed (to kicking requirments per round) because the better boxer usually won.




Well, no, not really. There are actually a lot of kickboxing competitions and kickboxing 'authorities', there are hugely different standards between kickboxers, you can't judge all by some. I've known many kickboxers who have hammered boxers, very good boxers. to say kickboxers are unfamiliar with boxing's 'intensity and range' actually means you haven't watched much kick boxing or haven't trained in the right places. the rule may have been changed in 'American' kickboxing but that's not world kickboxing.


UserC said:


> QUOTE="pdg, post: 1898912, member: 38938"]Source?



That the rules of AKB were changed to discourage boxers from entering? [/QUOTE]

that means nothing to me, I've never heard of it. Boxers and kick boxers often compete against each other and it's very much down to the fighter who wins, some want it more than others, some are better trained, some more experienced but it's hardly ever to do with style as such.


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## UserC

Tez3 said:


> Well, no, not really. There are actually a lot of kickboxing competitions and kickboxing 'authorities', there are hugely different standards between kickboxers, you can't judge all by some. I've known many kickboxers who have hammered boxers, very good boxers. to say kickboxers are unfamiliar with boxing's 'intensity and range' actually means you haven't watched much kick boxing or haven't trained in the right places. the rule may have been changed in 'American' kickboxing but that's not world kickboxing.
> 
> 
> That the rules of AKB were changed to discourage boxers from entering?



that means nothing to me, I've never heard of it. Boxers and kick boxers often compete against each other and it's very much down to the fighter who wins, some want it more than others, some are better trained, some more experienced but it's hardly ever to do with style as such.[/QUOTE]

Just because you never heard of it doesn’t mean it's not true. The thread question was about shiny pants AKB, and the rules were changed in that after guys who did boxing dominated without throwing any kicks.


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## Tez3

UserC said:


> that means nothing to me, I've never heard of it. Boxers and kick boxers often compete against each other and it's very much down to the fighter who wins, some want it more than others, some are better trained, some more experienced but it's hardly ever to do with style as such.



Just because you never heard of it doesn’t mean it's not true. The thread question was about shiny pants AKB, and the rules were changed in that after guys who did boxing dominated without throwing any kicks.[/QUOTE]


I didn't say it wasn't true my point is that there are a great many different kickboxing competitions and governing bodies and you can't judge them all by one.

'Shiny pants' kick boxing is not what many of us consider proper kickboxing. I would never use that as a yardstick to judge kickboxing.


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## UserC

Tez3 said:


> Just because you never heard of it doesn’t mean it's not true. The thread question was about shiny pants AKB, and the rules were changed in that after guys who did boxing dominated without throwing any kicks.
> 
> 
> I didn't say it wasn't true my point is that there are a great many different kickboxing competitions and governing bodies and you can't judge them all by one.
> 
> 'Shiny pants' kick boxing is not what many of us consider proper kickboxing. I would never use that as a yardstick to judge kickboxing.



Well the threadmaker did: *Would a boxer win over an American Kickboxer.
*
So I decided to answer what this person asked.


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## Tez3

UserC said:


> Well the threadmaker did: *Would a boxer win over an American Kickboxer.
> *
> So I decided to answer what this person asked.



Which is fine if you are correct but you insisted on calling it kickboxing when in fact you are discussing _American_ kickboxing, you can't define all kick boxing by American kickboxing. If the discussion was 'can a boxer win over a Judoka' instead and you started talking about BJJers instead of Judoka the conversation would be slewed and not factual. Same with telling people kickboxers don't punch as hard etc as boxers when what you seem to mean is those who do American kickboxing don't punch as hard as boxers, which again though may not be true............


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## UserC

Tez3 said:


> Which is fine if you are correct but you insisted on calling it kickboxing when in fact you are discussing _American_ kickboxing, you can't define all kick boxing by American kickboxing. If the discussion was 'can a boxer win over a Judoka' instead and you started talking about BJJers instead of Judoka the conversation would be slewed and not factual. Same with telling people kickboxers don't punch as hard etc as boxers when what you seem to mean is those who do American kickboxing don't punch as hard as boxers, which again though may not be true............



Haha. No kickboxer of any style/organisation, punch as hard as boxers. Or punch as well as boxers. Ray Sefo got floored by a journeyman when he tried boxing. Ray Sefo!! A Kickboxing legend.


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## pdg

UserC said:


> Haha. No kickboxer, of any style, organisation, punch as hard as boxers.



So, if that's really the case



UserC said:


> I whooped his intermediate guys in sparring. Nice operating a gym where a kickboxer bullies boxing guys who can only box in theory.



How on earth could that possibly ever happen?


You yourself stated that you, with your kickboxing experience, completely dominated boxers with equal or greater experience.


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## UserC

pdg said:


> So, if that's really the case
> 
> 
> 
> How on earth could that possibly ever happen?
> 
> 
> You yourself stated that you, with your kickboxing experience, completely dominated boxers with equal or greater experience.



I had MUCH greater experience, they weren't competitors etc.


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## pdg

UserC said:


> I had MUCH greater experience, they weren't competitors etc.



But that's introducing yet another condition.

They're either boxers or they're not.

You said EVERY boxer punches harder and better than ANY kickboxer.

Did you really mean: every boxer (just so long as they have been training for multiple years and compete regularly) punches harder and better than any kickboxer (just so long as they're of lesser experience)?


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## UserC

pdg said:


> But that's introducing yet another condition.
> 
> They're either boxers or they're not.
> 
> You said EVERY boxer punches harder and better than ANY kickboxer.
> 
> Did you really mean: every boxer (just so long as they have been training for multiple years and compete regularly) punches harder and better than any kickboxer (just so long as they're of lesser experience)?



Well I wrote boxers because some out of that group were likely aspiring competitors. A boxer is usually defined as being a competitor. Training boxing for guys not competing is not technically a boxer. Although you could argue those guys are boxers too, since we basically do the same thing, just not at the higher levels.


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## UserC

But if you do define a boxer as someone who trains boxing, then just about every MMA guy is a boxer.... They train in boxing gyms, spar etc.


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## Tez3

UserC said:


> Haha. No kickboxer of any style/organisation, punch as hard as boxers. Or punch as well as boxers. Ray Sefo got floored by a journeyman when he tried boxing. Ray Sefo!! A Kickboxing legend.




Sorry no, I'm guessing that you don't actually know that many boxers or that many kickboxers. 
*Ray Sefo:* *kickboxing* *56 Wins* (38 (T)KO's, 18 Decisions), *21 Losses*, *1 Draw
Boxing 5 Wins (4 (T)KO's, 1 Decision), 1 Loss, 0 Draw
MMA 2 wins, 2 losses.*

None of those records actually show a 'legend'. The boxing record doesn't show him quite as you show either.

If you want a legend try John Wayne Parr. 99 Wins (45 KOs), 33 losses, 1 draw or Crocop when he was kickboxing, Peter Aerts, Ernesto Hoost etc etc.




UserC said:


> But if you do define a boxer as someone who trains boxing, then just about every MMA guy is a boxer.... They train in boxing gyms, spar etc.



Er no, we don't train in boxing gyms, there's a lot wrong with that statement! You don't know much about MMA then.


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## UserC

Tez3 said:


> Sorry no, I'm guessing that you don't actually know that many boxers or that many kickboxers.
> *Ray Sefo:* *kickboxing* *56 Wins* (38 (T)KO's, 18 Decisions), *21 Losses*, *1 Draw
> Boxing 5 Wins (4 (T)KO's, 1 Decision), 1 Loss, 0 Draw
> MMA 2 wins, 2 losses.*
> 
> None of those records actually show a 'legend'. The boxing record doesn't show him quite as you show either.
> 
> If you want a legend try John Wayne Parr. 99 Wins (45 KOs), 33 losses, 1 draw or Crocop when he was kickboxing, Peter Aerts, Ernesto Hoost etc etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Er no, we don't train in boxing gyms, there's a lot wrong with that statement! You don't know much about MMA then.



I know of plenty MMA guys who train boxing in boxing gyms.


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## UserC

Or MMa fighters, to be more specific.


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## UserC

Tez3 said:


> Sorry no, I'm guessing that you don't actually know that many boxers or that many kickboxers.
> *Ray Sefo:* *kickboxing* *56 Wins* (38 (T)KO's, 18 Decisions), *21 Losses*, *1 Draw
> Boxing 5 Wins (4 (T)KO's, 1 Decision), 1 Loss, 0 Draw
> MMA 2 wins, 2 losses.*
> 
> None of those records actually show a 'legend'. The boxing record doesn't show him quite as you show either.
> 
> If you want a legend try John Wayne Parr. 99 Wins (45 KOs), 33 losses, 1 draw or Crocop when he was kickboxing, Peter Aerts, Ernesto Hoost etc etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Er no, we don't train in boxing gyms, there's a lot wrong with that statement! You don't know much about MMA then.



Ray Sefo is a KB legend. As is Andy Hug who had plenty of losses. The level of other kickboxers was very high.


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## Headhunter

UserC said:


> Not true.


Um yes it's exactly true


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## Headhunter

UserC said:


> Haha. No kickboxer of any style/organisation, punch as hard as boxers. Or punch as well as boxers. Ray Sefo got floored by a journeyman when he tried boxing. Ray Sefo!! A Kickboxing legend.


That is one of the dumbest I've read on this forum...kickboxing is boxing with kicks it's the same stuff. So Ray sefo represents every single kickboxer on the planet does he?....so what if he's a legend he's human he's got a chin he can get knocked out just like everyone. Just like how a black belt in bjj can get tapped out by a brown belt....it happens it's fighting it's completely unpredictable. This is from someone who's trained and fought in pretty much every striking discipline available since I was a kid...I'll tell you also the hardest iveever been hit was In a kickboxing match


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## Martial D




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## Headhunter

UserC said:


> Yes. A finesse boxer, no matter if it's Floyd Mayweather jr, is going to get chopped down by kicks. A half decent power puncher, however,  will corner the kickboxer, stalk him, and win by KO inside 3 rounds. A boxer punches much harder, much faster, and with better combinations. This is a level of boxing intensity and range that the kickboxer will be unfamiliar with. The rules of American Kickboxing had to be changed (to kicking requirments per round) because the better boxer usually won.


That is just a silly  generalisation yeah that may happen sometimes and another time the kickboxer could knock the power puncher out or kickboxer could use movement avoid the power use kicks and body shots to tire the power puncher out so his power goes down


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## UserC

Show me a K1 fighter who entered Boxing and won anything of value. Theres far more money in boxing for these Dutch KB with supposedly equal hands to boxers.

What prevented them from earning more money? I mean their hands are same, right?


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## Tez3

UserC said:


> Show me a K1 fighter who entered Boxing and won anything of value. Theres far more money in boxing for these Dutch KB with supposedly equal hands to boxers.
> 
> What prevented them from earning more money? I mean their hands are same, right?




Why would they go to boxing? Everyone I know went from boxing to kickboxing or MMA or both, as they offer more fun than boxing which let's face it is just boring. Why the emphasis on 'earning money'? If one earns enough to live comfortably why would anyone want to be greedy? Too many boxers as it is have become brain damaged by staying in it too long and taking too many fights.


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## UserC

Tez3 said:


> Why would they go to boxing? Everyone I know went from boxing to kickboxing or MMA or both, as they offer more fun than boxing which let's face it is just boring. Why the emphasis on 'earning money'? If one earns enough to live comfortably why would anyone want to be greedy? Too many boxers as it is have become brain damaged by staying in it too long and taking too many fights.



Because they have tried. It's the same trend every time. They beat the bottom of the barell, then get destroyed (by nobodies in the boxing world) and never box again.


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## Headhunter

UserC said:


> Show me a K1 fighter who entered Boxing and won anything of value. Theres far more money in boxing for these Dutch KB with supposedly equal hands to boxers.
> 
> What prevented them from earning more money? I mean their hands are same, right?


I'm sure I could if I did some research but I can't be bothered to do so...just know that a hell of a bunch of experienced marital artists don't agree with you


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## Headhunter

Tez3 said:


> Why would they go to boxing? Everyone I know went from boxing to kickboxing or MMA or both, as they offer more fun than boxing which let's face it is just boring. Why the emphasis on 'earning money'? If one earns enough to live comfortably why would anyone want to be greedy? Too many boxers as it is have become brain damaged by staying in it too long and taking too many fights.


Hey I fought for over 10 years and can count on one hand how much cash I made money never mattered to me that made it more fun. The guys who rely on fighting for money get so stressed out because if they lose they don't get as much cash but for me if I lost who cares back to work Monday to make my same wage


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## Tez3

UserC said:


> Because they have tried. It's the same trend every time. They beat the bottom of the barell, then get destroyed (by nobodies in the boxing world) and never box again.




I'm sorry but that is frankly quite a nasty thing to say. You have your own agenda here and seem determined to keep to it. It would be better if you were more open minded and definitely more experienced in martial arts. Unless you are trolling...........


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## Headhunter

UserC said:


> Because they have tried. It's the same trend every time. They beat the bottom of the barell, then get destroyed (by nobodies in the boxing world) and never box again.


Well I'm 100% sure those bottom of the barrel and nobodies would knock you out in 30 seconds. It's funny you're being so arrogant here when your first post was telling us how your coach told you your skills are lagging behind everyone else's....just think about that before trash talking professionals maybe


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## Tez3

Headhunter said:


> Well I'm 100% sure those bottom of the barrel and nobodies would knock you out in 30 seconds. It's funny you're being so arrogant here when your first post was telling us how your coach told you your skills are lagging behind everyone else's....just think about that before trash talking professionals maybe




As we say in martial arts...empty your cup.


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## UserC

Headhunter said:


> Well I'm 100% sure those bottom of the barrel and nobodies would knock you out in 30 seconds. It's funny you're being so arrogant here when your first post was telling us how your coach told you your skills are lagging behind everyone else's....just think about that before trash talking professionals maybe



My cousin is a former IBF intercontinental champion, peak world rank 29.. I have seen his worst opponents starting out as a pro.  They were terrible, overweight, slow, etc.  I would 100% knock their heads off


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## Headhunter

UserC said:


> My cousin is a former IBF intercontinental Champion, peak world rank 29.. I have seen his worst opponents starting out as a pro, and they were terrible, overweight, slow, etc I would 100% knock their heads off


Get in the ring and prove it until then stop running your mouth it's a bad look. Also why do I care what your cousins rank is I'm not talking about your cousin...


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## Tez3

UserC said:


> My cousin is a former IBF intercontinental champion, peak world rank 29.. I have seen his worst opponents starting out as a pro.  They were terrible, overweight, slow, etc.  I would 100% knock their heads off




The International Budo Federation, an amateur martial arts association one of hundreds if not thousands? er yeah ok.


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## UserC

Tez3 said:


> The International Budo Federation, an amateur martial arts association one of hundreds if not thousands? er yeah ok.



He sparred this dude named Wladimir Klitchko. You may have heard of him. Big Ukrainan guy. Dominated boxing.


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## Headhunter

UserC said:


> He sparred this dude named Wladimir Klitchko. You may have heard of him. Big Ukrainan guy. Dominated boxing.


Ooh did he wow nice story...how many times have I heard that a guy making stuff up using a so called famous relative to back themselves up


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## Tez3

UserC said:


> He sparred this dude named Wladimir Klitchko. You may have heard of him. Big Ukrainan guy. Dominated boxing.



Apart from the fact he didn't do kickboxing,his brother Vitali was the kickboxer who went into boxing. His kick boxing record was 32-2 with 22 KOs.
So what year was this sparring match?


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## Headhunter

Tez3 said:


> Apart from the fact he didn't do kickboxing,his brother Vitali was the kickboxer who went into boxing. His kick boxing record was 32-2 with 22 KOs.
> So what year was this sparring match?


April 31st 1922 lol


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## UserC

Tez3 said:


> Apart from the fact he didn't do kickboxing,his brother Vitali was the kickboxer who went into boxing. His kick boxing record was 32-2 with 22 KOs.
> So what year was this sparring match?



2015 before the Tyson Fury match.


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## UserC

Tez3 said:


> Apart from the fact he didn't do kickboxing,his brother Vitali was the kickboxer who went into boxing. His kick boxing record was 32-2 with 22 KOs.



What has that got to do with anything? I told you I know the bottom of the barrel in pro boxing, at least heavyweights, and it's dreadful. A K1 KB should beat those guys in a boxing match


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## Tez3

UserC said:


> 2015 before the Tyson Fury match.




Forgive me if I take that with a very large pinch of salt.


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## Headhunter

UserC said:


> 2015 before the Tyson Fury match.


Care to tell us his name then?


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## UserC

Jerome Le Banner, nr of boxing fights: 6

Ray Sefo, nr of boxing fights: 6

There's something about this number that intrigues me!  Would I be crazy to think that Lebanner got in trouble his last fight and decided to call it quits before going the path of Sefo?


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## UserC

Vid Ray Sefo KTFO by a boxing can


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## Headhunter

UserC said:


> Jerome Le Banner, nr of boxing fights: 6
> 
> Ray Sefo, nr of boxing fights: 6
> 
> There's something about this number that intrigues me!  Would I be crazy to think that Lebanner got in trouble his last fight and decided to call it quits before going the path of Sefo?


Yes


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## Headhunter

UserC said:


> Vid Ray Sefo KTFO by a boxing can


Vid: 2 guys have balls to step in the ring and fight for the entertainment of some guy who's never done so


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## pdg

The problem here is nothing you've cited goes anywhere near showing that a random boxer hits harder or better than a random kickboxer.

A kickboxer losing against a boxer doesn't illustrate that one hits harder or better than the other.

It might show slightly that one can block/dodge/etc. punches better than the other, but even that's a push.

The closest comparison I can think of is a video analysing kicks (capoeira vs tkd vs karate vs muat thai). It was very obviously weighted to demonstrate how powerful capoeira is, so they played with the calculations and priority of measurements until they 'proved' what they wanted.

I bet exactly the same could be done with punches, boxing vs kickboxing vs whatever you want - and show that any one you want has "moar powah".


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## UserC

pdg said:


> The problem here is nothing you've cited goes anywhere near showing that a random boxer hits harder or better than a random kickboxer.
> 
> A kickboxer losing against a boxer doesn't illustrate that one hits harder or better than the other.
> 
> It might show slightly that one can block/dodge/etc. punches better than the other, but even that's a push.
> 
> The closest comparison I can think of is a video analysing kicks (capoeira vs tkd vs karate vs muat thai). It was very obviously weighted to demonstrate how powerful capoeira is, so they played with the calculations and priority of measurements until they 'proved' what they wanted.
> 
> I bet exactly the same could be done with punches, boxing vs kickboxing vs whatever you want - and show that any one you want has "moar powah".



It's not essential to why kickboxers have way inferior boxing but it is a fact. Someone who only trains punching should punch harder than those that don't.


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## UserC

pdg said:


> The problem here is nothing you've cited goes anywhere near showing that a random boxer hits harder or better than a random kickboxer.
> 
> A kickboxer losing against a boxer doesn't illustrate that one hits harder or better than the other.
> 
> It might show slightly that one can block/dodge/etc. punches better than the other, but even that's a push.
> 
> The closest comparison I can think of is a video analysing kicks (capoeira vs tkd vs karate vs muat thai). It was very obviously weighted to demonstrate how powerful capoeira is, so they played with the calculations and priority of measurements until they 'proved' what they wanted.
> 
> I bet exactly the same could be done with punches, boxing vs kickboxing vs whatever you want - and show that any one you want has "moar powah".



You don't think Ray Sefo, famous for his "great hands" in K1 getting hammered by a boxing can, Illustrates my point?


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## pdg

UserC said:


> It's not essential to why kickboxers have way inferior boxing but it is a fact. Someone who only trains punching should punch harder than those that don't.



Well that's utterly different reasoning to anything you've previously said.


----------



## pdg

UserC said:


> You don't think Ray Sefo, famous for his "great hands" in K1 getting hammered by a boxing can, Illustrates my point?



No.

That doesn't show that one hits harder than the other.

If I punch you and you fall over, then you punch me and I stay upright, it doesn't show that my punch is harder than yours.


----------



## Headhunter

UserC said:


> It's not essential to why kickboxers have way inferior boxing but it is a fact. Someone who only trains punching should punch harder than those that don't.


No just no stop you're embarrassing yourself


----------



## UserC

pdg said:


> No.
> 
> That doesn't show that one hits harder than the other.
> 
> If I punch you and you fall over, then you punch me and I stay upright, it doesn't show that my punch is harder than yours.



Why are you so obsessed with my power claim?


----------



## Dirty Dog

pdg said:


> The closest comparison I can think of is a video analysing kicks (capoeira vs tkd vs karate vs muat thai). It was very obviously weighted to demonstrate how powerful capoeira is, so they played with the calculations and priority of measurements until they 'proved' what they wanted.



Did you actually watch the video? Of the three roundhouses (throwing in the Japanese stylist with the front kick was silly - Apples to Oranges...), the Capoeira kick was slower than both the Muay Thai and TKD roundhouses. It did deliver a stronger impact than the MT kick (though since it both traveled at a slower speed and a longer distance, it would seem to be easier to block or evade), but was both far slower and had far less impact than the TKD roundhouse.
So I don't see how it was "weighted" in the manner you describe.

Of course, the same test done with different practitioners might well give different results. With a sample size of one, the only thing a "test" like this proves is that this one person threw one kick that was harder than the one kick thrown by that other one person. Despite the presence of computers and electronic gadgets, it's not even remotely possible to call it science.


----------



## UserC

Dirty Dog said:


> Did you actually watch the video? Of the three roundhouses (throwing in the Japanese stylist with the front kick was silly - Apples to Oranges...), the Capoeira kick was slower than both the Muay Thai and TKD roundhouses. It did deliver a stronger impact than the MT kick (though since it both traveled at a slower speed and a longer distance, it would seem to be easier to block or evade), but was both far slower and had far less impact than the TKD roundhouse.
> So I don't see how it was "weighted" in the manner you describe.
> 
> Of course, the same test done with different practitioners might well give different results. With a sample size of one, the only thing a "test" like this proves is that this one person threw one kick that was harder than the one kick thrown by that other one person. Despite the presence of computers and electronic gadgets, it's not even remotely possible to call it science.



Not only that, they threw a kick once, and the Karateka did a front kick.


----------



## Dirty Dog

UserC said:


> You don't think Ray Sefo, famous for his "great hands" in K1 getting hammered by a boxing can, Illustrates my point?



No.
Even if the example is true, a sample size of one is meaningless.
And, further, the person who wins a boxing match isn't always the one who hits harder. You may hit harder, but if I'm slipping, evading, blocking, covering, and you can't land a solid strike, that power doesn't matter. 
Assume I hit with only 75% of your power. Or even only 50% of your power. If I hit you cleanly ten times as often, even with less power, who is likely to win? I'll win on points, if nothing else.


----------



## UserC

Dirty Dog said:


> So I don't see how it was "weighted" in the manner you describe.
> 
> .



No he's right. They claimed towards the end that he capoeira kick was the most effective by force to mass ratio, because if you take into account speed+force, the Capoeira kick had more power relative to speed. Still BS though because the Capoeira kick had more body behind it.


----------



## Dirty Dog

UserC said:


> Not only that, they threw a kick once, and the Karateka did a front kick.



Just as I'm not sure pdg actually watched the video, I'm not at all sure you actually read my post. If you did, you clearly didn't understand it.


----------



## pdg

Dirty Dog said:


> Did you actually watch the video? Of the three roundhouses (throwing in the Japanese stylist with the front kick was silly - Apples to Oranges...), the Capoeira kick was slower than both the Muay Thai and TKD roundhouses. It did deliver a stronger impact than the MT kick (though since it both traveled at a slower speed and a longer distance, it would seem to be easier to block or evade), but was both far slower and had far less impact than the TKD roundhouse.
> So I don't see how it was "weighted" in the manner you describe.



Did you watch the video?

They concluded the capoeira kick was most powerful, even though it was slower and with less force than the tkd kick.


----------



## UserC

pdg said:


> Did you watch the video?
> 
> They concluded the capoeira kick was most powerful, even though it was slower and with less force than the tkd kick.



No. The TKD kick was the most powerful. They concluded that the Capoeira kick was the most effective relative to speed. I just explained that to the Mod. I also explained why that is BS since the Capoeira kick packs much more body behind it and is terribly uneconomical compared to the TKD kick. And still had less power.


----------



## Dirty Dog

pdg said:


> Did you watch the video?



Yes. I've seen it before (more than once) and rewatched it today.



> They concluded the capoeira kick was most powerful, even though it was slower and with less force than the tkd kick.



They can say whatever they're paid to say. But since they published both the measured speeds and the measured impact, that doesn't really matter. The conclusion only matters if you're talking about science. Not entertainment.


----------



## UserC

Dirty Dog said:


> Just as I'm not sure pdg actually watched the video, I'm not at all sure you actually read my post. If you did, you clearly didn't understand it.



I did. My point is that the most troubling part is the sample of 1 kick per practitioner, instead of repeated kicks. This would eliminate randomness within the group.


----------



## Dirty Dog

UserC said:


> I did. My point is that the most troubling part is the sample of 1 kick per practitioner, instead of repeated kicks. This would eliminate randomness within the group.



So you're just repeating a point I already explicitly made. Ok.


----------



## Buka

The problem with all those devices is they aren't accurate, they never have been. If you can kick, you know darn well when you throw a corker of a kick. When you hit those measuring devices, any kind of them, some of your best kicks will not register as high as some of your others. 

But, they never, at least in my experience, measure a weak kick as anything other than a weak kick. So there is that.

But I love watching fighters hit those things on TV. It's very enjoyable.


----------



## UserC

Dirty Dog said:


> So you're just repeating a point I already explicitly made. Ok.



I thought you referred to just 1 practitioner as the problem (which of course it is as well)


----------



## UserC

Dirty Dog said:


> No.
> Even if the example is true, a sample size of one is meaningless.
> And, further, the person who wins a boxing match isn't always the one who hits harder. You may hit harder, but if I'm slipping, evading, blocking, covering, and you can't land a solid strike, that power doesn't matter.
> Assume I hit with only 75% of your power. Or even only 50% of your power. If I hit you cleanly ten times as often, even with less power, who is likely to win? I'll win on points, if nothing else.



It isn't meaningless if the result is polar opposite to what a world class boxer would have. No world class boxer loses to boxing cans ever. They might lose to lesser boxers once in a full moon, but not cans


----------



## Tez3

UserC said:


> It isn't meaningless if the result is polar opposite to what a world class boxer would have. No world class boxer loses to boxing cans ever. They might lose to lesser boxers once in a full moon, but not cans




That's amusing in a sort of you don't actually know much sort of way.


----------



## UserC

Tez3 said:


> That's amusing in a sort of you don't actually know much sort of way.



What's amusing is your insistence that boxers aren't the best boxers.


----------



## Headhunter

UserC said:


> It isn't meaningless if the result is polar opposite to what a world class boxer would have. No world class boxer loses to boxing cans ever. They might lose to lesser boxers once in a full moon, but not cans


You're a funny guy...maybe you should go have a chat with you're supposed cousin maybe he can teach you something about boxing or fighting in general because you obviously don't have a clue


----------



## Tez3

UserC said:


> What's amusing is your insistence that boxers aren't the best boxers.




Ah, Cherie, I never said that at all, it's not even come up in the 'debate'. See, you are now confusing yourself. Everyone knows in style v style arguments, of which we have seen many, the person who insists he and he alone is correct is, invariably, incorrect.

The answer is simple, there's good punchers and there's not so good, the style they do is unimportant. Yes, it really is that simple. who can beat who is also simple, the person who really wants it more will more often win, the person who uses their head more will usually win, the person who can adapt quickly to his/her opponent will usually win, there's a few other thing that will mean someone will win, like having a mismatched opponent or one who will take a dive. All in all whatever the style it will be the best fighter who will win.


----------



## pdg

UserC said:


> What's amusing is your insistence that boxers aren't the best boxers.



That's another different argument.

Put a boxer under kickboxing rules and see if he still triumphs.

To make it even more entertaining, put a boxer under the WTF TKD ruleset or in a capoeira match and see what happens.


----------



## UserC

No that's exactly the argument. If some of them punch as well as boxers, they should do well in a boxing match against a boxer.


----------



## Dirty Dog

pdg said:


> That's another different argument.
> 
> Put a boxer under kickboxing rules and see if he still triumphs.
> 
> To make it even more entertaining, put a boxer under the WTF TKD ruleset or in a capoeira match and see what happens.



This can actually be both fun and educational for all involved.
We have a local boxing club that would come to the dojang. We'd pair up their students with ours, and have them go at it. Once under boxing rules, once under our rules (but never those stupid WT rules).
Since we train and use hands, our students consistently did pretty well with 'pure' boxing. The boxing students struggled when kicks were added, but even without much training they could learn to throw a reasonable roundhouse or front snap kick to the body.
The Y put a stop to it, because of liability concerns.


----------



## UserC

Dirty Dog said:


> This can actually be both fun and educational for all involved.
> We have a local boxing club that would come to the dojang. We'd pair up their students with ours, and have them go at it. Once under boxing rules, once under our rules (but never those stupid WT rules).
> Since we train and use hands, our students consistently did pretty well with 'pure' boxing. The boxing students struggled when kicks were added, but even without much training they could learn to throw a reasonable roundhouse or front snap kick to the body.
> The Y put a stop to it, because of liability concerns.



It's pretty reasonable to expect a boxer to spar kickboxers ahead of style fight to get used to kicks thrown at them. And a Kickboxer is well adviced to spar boxers.


----------



## UserC

Forget Ray Sefo, let's throw in K1 "technician" Ernesto Hoost against a half decent boxer. I mean, Hoost only got outboxed by a wild, swinging Bob Sapp, twice! And Sapp barely threw a kick. I think Sapp threw a few that missed

Need I point out that Bob Sapp is not a boxer?.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

UserC said:


> Well no. It doesn’t matter if it's Mayweather or a poor version of him. Either one is likely to lose. It doesn’t matter if it's Mike Tyson or a poor version of him, either one is likely to win.


So, you're saying Mayweather loses to a mediocre kickboxer? And a mediocre power boxer wins against an elite kickboxer? I doubt either of those is consistently true.


----------



## Tez3

UserC said:


> Forget Ray Sefo, let's throw in K1 "technician" Ernesto Hoost against a half decent boxer. I mean, Hoost only got outboxed by a wild, swinging Bob Sapp, twice! And Sapp barely threw a kick. I think Sapp threw a few that missed
> 
> Need I point out that Bob Sapp is not a boxer?.




LOL, you are still looking for 'proof' that kickboxers can't punch aren't you. Well, Bob Sapp isn't a kick boxer either. He was an American footballer then a wrestler. He lost more fights than he won in kickboxing and the first fight against Hoost was controversial, the majority of damage dealt by Sapp to end the fight appeared to be inflicted after the bell, both fights were doctor stoppages. Sapp was supposed to fight a friend of mine ( his pro record is 28 Wins, 10 Losses, 2 Draws, 2x world champion, European champion and  4x British champion plus MMA fights and 8x world champion x8 Ju-Jitsu) but chickened out a couple of days before the fight. 

Don't keep coming up with things like this to 'prove' your point, it isn't working. there are poor kick boxers, there's poor boxers, it proves nothing about the styles.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

UserC said:


> I had MUCH greater experience, they weren't competitors etc.


So, the fighter mattered more than the style. You just made the point.


----------



## UserC

Tez3 said:


> LOL, you are still looking for 'proof' that kickboxers can't punch aren't you. Well, Bob Sapp isn't a kick boxer either. He was an American footballer then a wrestler. He lost more fights than he won in kickboxing and the first fight against Hoost was controversial, the majority of damage dealt by Sapp to end the fight appeared to be inflicted after the bell, both fights were doctor stoppages. Sapp was supposed to fight a friend of mine ( his pro record is 28 Wins, 10 Losses, 2 Draws, 2x world champion, European champion and  4x British champion plus MMA fights and 8x world champion x8 Ju-Jitsu) but chickened out a couple of days before the fight.
> 
> Don't keep coming up with things like this to 'prove' your point, it isn't working. there are poor kick boxers, there's poor boxers, it proves nothing about the styles.



Ernesto Hoost was a phenomenal kickboxer. Tough as nails (shaky chin though which makes it even more impressive). He got destroyed twice by Sapp by just punches.


----------



## UserC

gpseymour said:


> So, the fighter mattered more than the style. You just made the point.



It matters if they are just fresh off the boat against a guy who sparred for 4 years.


----------



## UserC

Tez3 said:


> both fights were doctor stoppages. .



No they weren't. Hoost didn't want to come out in one of them. He was pretty fried at that point. How more fair and Square can you win? You are making excuses.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

UserC said:


> Forget Ray Sefo, let's throw in K1 "technician" Ernesto Hoost against a half decent boxer. I mean, Hoost only got outboxed by a wild, swinging Bob Sapp, twice! And Sapp barely threw a kick. I think Sapp threw a few that missed
> 
> Need I point out that Bob Sapp is not a boxer?.


So, your evidence now includes someone not even in the population you're talking about?


----------



## UserC

gpseymour said:


> So, your evidence now includes someone not even in the population you're talking about?



Yes. If a non boxer who's just "big" can outbox one of the all-time great kickboxers, what do you think Boxers would do to Hoost? You think prime Bob Sapp would do well against a half decent boxer?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

UserC said:


> Yes. If a non boxer who's just "big" can outbox one of the all-time great kickboxers, what do you think Boxers would do to Hoost? You think prime Bob Sapp would do well against a half decent boxer?


So, once again, you're providing evidence that the fighter matters more than the style. You don't see that, do you?


----------



## UserC

gpseymour said:


> So, once again, you're providing evidence that the fighter matters more than the style. You don't see that, do you?



Don't you see that Bob Sapp against ANY decent boxer would be a farce? I'm providing evidence that Kickboxers defence to punches is nowhere near as good as a boxers. Hoost was not the only kickboxer he beat when he was in his prime.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

UserC said:


> Don't you see that Bob Sapp against ANY decent boxer would be a farce? I'm providing evidence that Kickboxers defence to punches is nowhere near as good as a boxers. Hoost was not the only kickboxer he beat when he was in his prime.


So, in summary, you don't see it.


----------



## Tez3

UserC

The thing is you seem to think that no one here actually knows these people, hasn't watched them live or been on the shows ( either working or spectating) they've been on etc etc. You don't know the 'audience' you are peddling your spiel to, do you? Do you think that there aren't people here who have judged, coached etc K1, MMA, boxing etc or do you assume that like you they are just fanboys with incorrect information. You should always be careful when arguing on here that you aren't arguing with people who actually understand their sport, have been there done it got the t shirt which has worn out sort of  thing.

if you don't understand something try not to keep digging yourself into a hole that's just getting bigger and bigger.


----------



## UserC

Tez3 said:


> UserC
> 
> The thing is you seem to think that no one here actually knows these people, hasn't watched them live or been on the shows ( either working or spectating) they've been on etc etc. You don't know the 'audience' you are peddling your spiel to, do you? Do you think that there aren't people here who have judged, coached etc K1, MMA, boxing etc or do you assume that like you they are just fanboys with incorrect information. You should always be careful when arguing on here that you aren't arguing with people who actually understand their sport, have been there done it got the t shirt which has worn out sort of  thing.
> 
> if you don't understand something try not to keep digging yourself into a hole that's just getting bigger and bigger.



This is coming from someone who deemed K1 fighters legends or not based on their statistical records, not taking into account level of opposition and the fact they still fought after their prime.


----------



## Buka

To me, the superior use of fists comes from boxing rather that kick boxing. BUT, that would depend on the trainer.

UserC, how long have you been boxing?


----------



## UserC

Buka said:


> To me, the superior use of fists comes from boxing rather that kick boxing. BUT, that would depend on the trainer.




Why would it depend on the trainer? The boxing curriculum is pretty uniform. It's the same no matter where you are located.


----------



## Tez3

UserC said:


> This is coming from someone who deemed K1 fighters legends or not based on their statistical records, not taking into account level of opposition and the fact they still fought after their prime.




Dear boy, stop putting words into my mouth I didn't say they were legends, I have also actually been to and watched the actual fights not just seen bits on videos or read about them.


----------



## Headhunter

Buka said:


> To me, the superior use of fists comes from boxing rather that kick boxing. BUT, that would depend on the trainer.
> 
> UserC, how long have you been boxing?


According to his other thread 4 months lol


----------



## Tez3

UserC said:


> Why would it depend on the trainer?




Ah and there we have it. If you have to ask...........................


----------



## Headhunter

UserC said:


> Why would it depend on the trainer? The boxing curriculum is pretty uniform. It's the same no matter where you are located.


Sigh...I haven't felt this way since teaching my kid the alphabet. It depends on the trainer because every fighter has a different focus. One kickboxing trainer may prefer to use his hands one may prefer his kicks. A boxing trainer may prefer to use footwork, another may prefer to clinch another may prefer to power punch and brawl. All coaches have different styles of coaching


----------



## UserC

Headhunter said:


> According to his other thread 4 months lol



Well since you claim kickboxing is just boxing with kicks added, that would be 4 years and 4 months.


----------



## Headhunter

One thing about this thread I'll say is I don't think @Tez3 has ever agreed with me so much lol


----------



## Headhunter

UserC said:


> Well since you claim kickboxing is just boxing with kicks added, that would be 4 years and 4 months.


Yep and according to you your coach told you you've got the worst technique in his gym yet you're trash talking pro fighters calling them cans and nobodies. Maybe you should be training more than talking then your technique will be better then maybe you'll learn something because you really don't seem to have a clue about boxing or kickboxing


----------



## pdg

Buka said:


> To me, the superior use of fists comes from boxing rather that kick boxing. BUT, that would depend on the trainer.





Headhunter said:


> Sigh...I haven't felt this way since teaching my kid the alphabet. It depends on the trainer because every fighter has a different focus. One kickboxing trainer may prefer to use his hands one may prefer his kicks. A boxing trainer may prefer to use footwork, another may prefer to clinch another may prefer to power punch and brawl. All coaches have different styles of coaching



Shouldn't the trainer/coach be almost second to the actual 'fighter'?

A good coach should surely work to the strengths and weaknesses of the person they are training, rather than pushing their own technique to the possible detriment of what their client is naturally better at.

Which brings it back around to the individual over the style.




Edit: I've re-evaluated Buka's comment - maybe to mean kickboxing coach A can have more focus on developing handwork than kickboxing coach B.


----------



## Headhunter

pdg said:


> Shouldn't the trainer/coach be almost second to the actual 'fighter'?
> 
> A good coach should surely work to the strengths and weaknesses of the person they are training, rather than pushing their own technique to the possible detriment of what their client is naturally better at.
> 
> Which brings it back around to the individual over the style.


Yes but every trainer still has his own style and will teach that way. Angelo Dundee wouldn't train his fighters the peak a boo style and cus d'amato wouldn't teach the rope a dope method either. Greg Jackson wouldn't train his fighters to brawl like Raffael Cordero taught his guys at chute box to do


----------



## pdg

Headhunter said:


> Yes but every trainer still has his own style and will teach that way. Angelo Dundee wouldn't train his fighters the peak a boo style and cus d'amato wouldn't teach the rope a dope method either. Greg Jackson wouldn't train his fighters to brawl like Raffael Cordero taught his guys at chute box to do



Fair point.

Hopefully though, those coaches would recognise that certain people just don't fit with their style of coaching and pass them to someone else (or at least suggest it).


----------



## Tez3

Headhunter said:


> One thing about this thread I'll say is I don't think @Tez3 has ever agreed with me so much lol



Just proves our little friend is very, very wrong doesn't it!


----------



## Headhunter

Tez3 said:


> Just proves our little friend is very, very wrong doesn't it!


I disagree....lol


----------



## Tez3

Headhunter said:


> I disagree....lol




As you see, I disagree with your disagree!


----------



## Tez3

In certain styles when you watch them fight you can tell who their coach/instructor is, supposing you didn't know beforehand. There's certain things they teach their fighters, some quite small, that just make you go 'aha, know where he/she trains.


----------



## Headhunter

pdg said:


> Fair point.
> 
> Hopefully though, those coaches would recognise that certain people just don't fit with their style of coaching and pass them to someone else (or at least suggest it).


Sure but at the end of the day each coach has his own base. For example randy couture isn't the guy to train with if you want to be a high level kick boxer and mark hunt isn't the guy the guy to train with if you want to be a submission expert


----------



## UserC

Time spent on punching from gym to gym will be the same. Time spent on things outside of punching will not be the same.


----------



## Headhunter

UserC said:


> Time spent on punching from gym to gym will be the same. Time spent on things outside of punching will not be the same.


So you're saying Mike Tyson punches the same way as Ali did are you?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> As you see, I disagree with your disagree!


Ah, all is right with the world!


----------



## UserC

Headhunter said:


> So you're saying Mike Tyson punches the same way as Ali did are you?



So you're saying Mike Tyson and Floyd Patterson punched the same? It has nothing to do with the trainer.


----------



## Tez3

UserC said:


> So you're saying Mike Tyson and Floyd Patterson punched the same? It has nothing to do with the trainer.




Then why have a trainer? 
Just how many boxing gyms and clubs have you actually been in let alone train in?


----------



## UserC

Tez3 said:


> Then why have a trainer?
> Just how many boxing gyms and clubs have you actually been in let alone train in?



Because there are both universal principles in Western Boxing mechanics that instructors teach you, and aspects where individuals diverge.


----------



## Headhunter

Okay I'm done with this thread only so much nonsense someone can read


----------



## frank raud

UserC said:


> Haha. No kickboxer of any style/organisation, punch as hard as boxers. Or punch as well as boxers. Ray Sefo got floored by a journeyman when he tried boxing. Ray Sefo!! A Kickboxing legend.


 Early in his career, Jean-Yves Theriault  (a Canadian kickboxing legend) had one of George Chuvalo's (a Canadian boxing legend) sparring partners come from Toronto to Ottawa to train with him for an upcoming fight. The boxer figured it would be easy money, spar for a couple days with a kickboxer, couldn't be too hard. He was gone by noon the first day, back on the train to Toronto. Said Jean-Yves hit harder than Chuvalo. George was a heavyweight, fought the likes of Ali, Frazier and Foreman. Jean-Yves was middleweight.


----------



## UserC

frank raud said:


> Early in his career, Jean-Yves Theriault  (a Canadian kickboxing legend) had one of George Chuvalo's (a Canadian boxing legend) sparring partners come from Toronto to Ottawa to train with him for an upcoming fight. The boxer figured it would be easy money, spar for a couple days with a kickboxer, couldn't be too hard. He was gone by noon the first day, back on the train to Toronto. Said Jean-Yves hit harder than Chuvalo. George was a heavyweight, fought the likes of Ali, Frazier and Foreman. Jean-Yves was middleweight.



I'm not impressed with anecdotes. I can name a few KB who punched like tanks, equal to elite boxers - Branko Cikatić, Jerome Le Banner, Badr Hari. How many of those guys  that can actually box overall at a decent level is an open question.


----------



## pdg

Why does the subject keep shifting?

Istr it started that no kickboxer ever punches as hard as a boxer.

Then it became as hard or as well.

Then it sidestepped to being able to take a punch.

Then it went back to as hard.

Then power didn't matter suddenly.

Now we're at overall technique.


I'm confused.

Is it because I don't know much about boxing?


----------



## frank raud

UserC said:


> I'm not impressed with anecdotes. I can name a few KB who punched like tanks, equal to elite boxers - Branko Cikatić, Jerome Le Banner, Badr Hari. How many of those guys  that can actually box overall at a decent level is an open question.


Please make up your mind. Your comment was no kickboxer can hit as hard as a boxer. Then you say you know of a few kickboxers who hit as hard as elite boxers. Now you want to know how many of them can box at a decent level. Considering it is only part of their sport, probably not many. How any boxers can compete in elite level kickboxing?


----------



## UserC

pdg said:


> Why does the subject keep shifting?
> 
> Istr it started that no kickboxer ever punches as hard as a boxer.
> 
> Then it became as hard or as well.
> 
> Then it sidestepped to being able to take a punch.
> 
> Then it went back to as hard.
> 
> Then power didn't matter suddenly.
> 
> Now we're at overall technique.
> 
> 
> I'm confused.
> 
> Is it because I don't know much about boxing?



I don't know if they do or not. My guess is that a very select group of them do.  I said repeatedly that it's not essential whether they do so or not. But you seem unreceptive.


----------



## Tez3

UserC said:


> I'm not impressed with anecdotes. I can name a few KB who punched like tanks, equal to elite boxers - Branko Cikatić, Jerome Le Banner, Badr Hari. How many of those guys  that can actually box overall at a decent level is an open question.




If they don't care to box why does it matter? many people are happy with what they do, don't care about other styles and more importantly don't measure themselves by others standards. Do you think only boxers are the only ones that count?


----------



## pdg

UserC said:


> I don't know if they do or not. My guess is that a very select group of them do.  I said repeatedly that it's not essential whether they do so or not. But you seem unreceptive.



That reply to my message makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Did you quote the right person?


----------



## UserC

frank raud said:


> How any boxers can compete in elite level kickboxing?



That's irrelevant since boxers don't train kicking, an aspect of Kickboxing. Kickboxers train punching, an aspect of boxing.


----------



## frank raud

UserC said:


> I'm not impressed with anecdotes.





UserC said:


> That's irrelevant since boxers don't train kicking, an aspect of Kickboxing. Kickboxers train punching, an aspect of boxing.


Hmm, people who spend all their time doing one thing(punching) might be better at it then people who do other things as well? Stop the presses! This is breaking news!


----------



## pdg

UserC said:


> No kickboxer of any style/organisation, punch as hard as boxers.



Just a reminder from a few pages ago.


----------



## Headhunter

pdg said:


> Why does the subject keep shifting?
> 
> Istr it started that no kickboxer ever punches as hard as a boxer.
> 
> Then it became as hard or as well.
> 
> Then it sidestepped to being able to take a punch.
> 
> Then it went back to as hard.
> 
> Then power didn't matter suddenly.
> 
> Now we're at overall technique.
> 
> 
> I'm confused.
> 
> Is it because I don't know much about boxing?


Nah it's userc who doesn't know anything about it


----------



## pdg

UserC said:


> I'm not impressed with anecdotes



And yet, you expect everyone else to be impressed by them...



UserC said:


> My cousin is a former IBF intercontinental champion, peak world rank 29.. I have seen his worst opponents starting out as a pro.  They were terrible, overweight, slow, etc.  I would 100% knock their heads off





UserC said:


> He sparred this dude named Wladimir Klitchko. You may have heard of him. Big Ukrainan guy. Dominated boxing.


----------



## UserC

frank raud said:


> Hmm, people who spend all their time doing one thing(punching) might be better at it then people who do other things as well? Stop the presses! This is breaking news!



These are the people I'm arguing with though.  Please set them straight. I'm exhausted.


----------



## UserC

Dirty Dog said:


> This can actually be both fun and educational for all involved.
> We have a local boxing club that would come to the dojang. We'd pair up their students with ours, and have them go at it. Once under boxing rules, once under our rules (but never those stupid WT rules).
> Since we train and use hands, our students consistently did pretty well with 'pure' boxing. The boxing students struggled when kicks were added, but even without much training they could learn to throw a reasonable roundhouse or front snap kick to the body.
> The Y put a stop to it, because of liability concerns.



You "forgot" to mention how old they were..


----------



## UserC

If a TKD club does consistently well in pure boxing against boxers, they are either children or the boxing club is phenomenally poor.  Or you have the biggest talent pool on the planet.


----------



## frank raud

UserC said:


> These are the people I'm arguing with though.  Please set them straight. I'm exhausted.


MIGHT be better. You yourself supplied a list of KBs who are by your own definition the equal of boxers. You contradict yourself and wont concede when your claims are shown to be incorrect .


----------



## UserC

frank raud said:


> MIGHT be better. You yourself supplied a list of KBs who are by your own definition the equal of boxers. You contradict yourself and wont concede when your claims are shown to be incorrect .



They are not the equal of boxers just because they punch as hard.


----------



## Headhunter

UserC said:


> They are not the equal of boxers just because they punch as hard.


Just stop...


----------



## pdg

Headhunter said:


> Just stop...



No, don't stop.

This thread is comedy gold 

All we need now is a no touch boxer to chime in


----------



## UserC

I didn't know all there is to boxing  is Power. You guys are more ignorant than I thought.


----------



## UserC

I wrote no kickboxer of any organisation punches harder. That is, put anyone of them in a boxing gym and punch that way instead, and they will punch harder. Or clone them and have one do boxing, the other kickboxing, then see who punches harder.


----------



## Headhunter

UserC said:


> I didn't know all there is to boxing  is Power. You guys are more ignorant than I thought.



That's okay we're all thinking the same about you again I'll say this your coach told you you've got the worst technique in your gym...you told us that and now you're acting like some expert and trash talking fighters


----------



## UserC

Headhunter said:


> That's okay we're all thinking the same about you again I'll say this your coach told you you've got the worst technique in your gym...you told us that and now you're acting like some expert and trash talking fighters



Yet I had 3 years up on those guys with your precious kickboxing. Case closed.


----------



## Headhunter

UserC said:


> Yet I had 3 years up on those guys with your precious kickboxing. Case closed.


My precious kickboxing? What the hell are you on about....you know what I don't even care keep training maybe you'll learn something one day...I doubt it but you never know. I'm bored now


----------



## Tez3




----------



## pdg

UserC said:


> Yet I had 3 years up on those guys with your precious kickboxing. Case closed.



What you also probably had was a misinterpretation of what they were sparring for.

If they're working on technique and you go in blazing with no care to form (in your own words "shouldn't I try my best?") then while they're sticking to their self imposed rules you'll 'dominate' them.

Different situation, maybe they would've floored you. Maybe they wouldn't.

You're such a contradiction though, on one hand you say that boxers are the best boxers, but then you say that you as an ex kickboxer are better at boxing.

You seem to have wildly differing views that directly contradict each other yet expect them all to be true.

You say the coach has nothing to do with it, yet you blame the coach for training people who can't deal with you.


----------



## Tez3

pdg said:


> What you also probably had was a misinterpretation of what they were sparring for.
> 
> If they're working on technique and you go in blazing with no care to form (in your own words "shouldn't I try my best?") then while they're sticking to their self imposed rules you'll 'dominate' them.
> 
> Different situation, maybe they would've floored you. Maybe they wouldn't.
> 
> You're such a contradiction though, on one hand you say that boxers are the best boxers, but then you say that you as an ex kickboxer are better at boxing.
> 
> You seem to have wildly differing views that directly contradict each other yet expect them all to be true.
> 
> You say the coach has nothing to do with it, yet you blame the coach for training people who can't deal with you.




Nicely summed up.


----------



## pdg

Tez3 said:


> View attachment 21423



I've met a few of them.

Incredibly nice people they were too.

Like hell would I pick a fight with one, even if he's asleep


----------



## UserC

pdg said:


> What you also probably had was a misinterpretation of what they were sparring for.
> 
> If they're working on technique and you go in blazing with no care to form (in your own words "shouldn't I try my best?") then while they're sticking to their self imposed rules you'll 'dominate' them.
> 
> Different situation, maybe they would've floored you. Maybe they wouldn't.
> 
> You're such a contradiction though, on one hand you say that boxers are the best boxers, but then you say that you as an ex kickboxer are better at boxing.
> 
> You seem to have wildly differing views that directly contradict each other yet expect them all to be true.
> 
> You say the coach has nothing to do with it, yet you blame the coach for training people who can't deal with you.



Why are you making stuff up? Technique practise is one thing, sparring another.


----------



## pdg

UserC said:


> Why are you making stuff up?



What exactly am I making up?

Please let me know, I can quote in response if you'd like...



UserC said:


> Technique practise is one thing, sparring another.



Ah, well there we go...


----------



## Buka

Guys, you're arguing with four months of boxing experience.


----------



## Martial D

Buka said:


> Guys, you're arguing with four months of boxing experience.


I got there on page three lol. This started with dude complaining that he sucks and asking how to get better now all of a sudden he is jack dempsey and the worlds foremost expert on punching biomechanics. 

So many lols in one thread.


----------



## pdg

Buka said:


> Guys, you're arguing with four months of boxing experience.



Well, beats my 2 hours, 29 years ago


----------



## Tez3

pdg said:


> I've met a few of them.
> 
> Incredibly nice people they were too.
> 
> Like hell would I pick a fight with one, even if he's asleep




One of my shift partners was a Gurkha, the other a Para so we had each others backs, great times. As you say incredibly nice people but don't ever let them drive a car, seriously, worse drivers ever! We had a taxi driver bring a sleeping Gurkha to us, the driver had tried shouting when they'd got to the barracks but he hadn't woken up. The driver said he hadn't wanted to shake him as he would have anyone else. 

On the other subject, my father had been an army boxer, when he'd came out he'd got a civvie job but helped coach at one of London's boxing gyms, Freddie Mills was someone he helped coach and spar with ( Freddie is long before anyone here's time I think). My father used to bring me with him sometimes when my mother wasn't well, I learnt to box at an early age and he kept teaching me as I got older. When I got into martial arts umpteen years (decades) ago I had a good bit of sparring experience albeit just the punching, but the footwork was good. 
In the RAF I got to spar with not just martial artists but also boxers, most of us were shift workers so in most sports it's hard to practice with the whole team or other practitioners of what you do so you make do. A karateka/kickboxer was better than nothing to spar with and vice versa. Twenty years ago I got involved in MMA so got to know more boxers who came to our club for the sparring, we help with regimental boxing teams as well which we all find great fun. And yes we try to persuade them to turn to the dark side MMA.

I have also seen an inordinate amount of fights between civvies and military, military and military, even civvies against civvies, military wives against other military wives, the latter is more scary than any other type of fight, trust me.

A couple of friends of mine run bare knuckle boxing fight nights, yes it's legal here, just not sanctioned by the boxing authorities. Kick boxers have a go on them, some do well some don't and guess what, some boxers do well some don't. Who'd have thunk it eh!!!!!


----------



## pdg

Tez3 said:


> I have also seen an inordinate amount of fights between civvies and military, military and military, even civvies against civvies, military wives against other military wives, the latter is more scary than any other type of fight, trust me.



I've seen just about all of those too. Thankfully for me it wasn't my job to get in the middle.

And yes, the latter is the one where stay clear and mop up after would be my tactic


----------



## Tez3

pdg said:


> Thankfully for me it wasn't my job to get in the middle.




Squaddie fights were fine, they're just having fun and break up quite easily, civvies could be left to the local coppers and we just left the women to it. The worst was one at a Royal Irish Regimental do, a piper had gone onto the tables to play, one Irish wife took exception to the tune played ( sectarianism at it's best) so went to belt the piper, his wife belted her, the first women's husband went to separate them, so the other husband belted him and then it started like some amazing Western bar fight. In a corner were all the non Irish attached unit members and their wives sat with open mouths. It was one of the funniest things I've ever seen, bodies flying out of the marquee, getting up laughing and throwing themselves back in. The officers throwing punches at the men and the men throwing them back with great gusto ( esprit de corps) I believe it was voted a great success.


----------



## pdg

Squaddie scuffles were never really much of an issue - they'd let anyone join in but the fights would generally avoid spectators and people that weren't interested.

Nobody ever seemed to really get hurt either, even when tables and chairs got involved.

There's obviously one or two that think they've got something to prove, like the one who thought it'd be fun to come into a pub on bike night and try picking a fight... Comedy outcome to that one.

The only time I've seen the start of military vs civ it wasn't the military guys that really started it, unless a few comments counts as starting (except once, but it started as a couple of squaddies between themselves, then got escalated by others).


----------



## Ryan_

kempodisciple said:


> Yup. In America at least. We just call it kickboxing.


Ah, cool, so kickboxing is kickboxing. Nice to know.


----------



## UserC

Buka said:


> Guys, you're arguing with four months of boxing experience.



I was just about to show you guys my jab... Then you had to make that nasty remark.


----------



## Tez3

pdg said:


> Squaddie scuffles were never really much of an issue - they'd let anyone join in but the fights would generally avoid spectators and people that weren't interested.
> 
> Nobody ever seemed to really get hurt either, even when tables and chairs got involved.
> 
> There's obviously one or two that think they've got something to prove, like the one who thought it'd be fun to come into a pub on bike night and try picking a fight... Comedy outcome to that one.
> 
> The only time I've seen the start of military vs civ it wasn't the military guys that really started it, unless a few comments counts as starting (except once, but it started as a couple of squaddies between themselves, then got escalated by others).




My fiancé  ( it didn't last, the IRA blew him up) many years ago was a Royal Marine, we'd all go out for the night and the civvie lads would start trying to goad them into a fight, after a while the Bootnecks would get fed up, take their watches off and get stuck in. I was chatting to Martin Stapleton a UK MMA fighter who used to be a Bootneck and was fighting on one of our shows he said that nothing had changed still happens though the civvies are probably the sons of the ones who used to annoy us.




UserC said:


> I was just about to show you guys my jab... Then you had to make that nasty remark.




You know that this is boring now right, you can always tell it is when we all start going off topic.


----------



## UserC

Tez3 said:


> My fiancé  ( it didn't last, the IRA blew him up) many years ago was a Royal Marine, we'd all go out for the night and the civvie lads would start trying to goad them into a fight, after a while the Bootnecks would get fed up, take their watches off and get stuck in. I was chatting to Martin Stapleton a UK MMA fighter who used to be a Bootneck and was fighting on one of our shows he said that nothing had changed still happens though the civvies are probably the sons of the ones who used to annoy us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know that this is boring now right, you can always tell it is when we all start going off topic.



Oh sure, not my thread. Carry on with your very impressive name-dropping


----------



## Buka

UserC said:


> I was just about to show you guys my jab... Then you had to make that nasty remark.


Apologies, not meant to be nasty. Let me ask you this - do you think your years in kickboxing is helping you learn boxing?


----------



## Dirty Dog

UserC said:


> I was just about to show you guys my jab... Then you had to make that nasty remark.



A statement of fact (repeating something you yourself said) is nasty?


----------



## UserC

Buka said:


> Apologies, not meant to be nasty. Let me ask you this - do you think your years in kickboxing is helping you learn boxing?



No Lol.


----------



## Dirty Dog

UserC said:


> No Lol.



Just off the top of my head, I think you may very well be the first person I've ever seen who didn't think their prior experience was helpful with their current training. 
Is the problem you, or was your kickboxing training that bad?


----------



## UserC

Dirty Dog said:


> Just off the top of my head, I think you may very well be the first person I've ever seen who didn't think their prior experience was helpful with their current training.
> Is the problem you, or was your kickboxing training that bad?



Kickboxing specifically did not help much at all.  I expected to struggle in sparring against the second level group and do well technically. It was the complete opposite. I could have gotten that sparring experience from any martial art with punches to the face.


----------



## Tez3

UserC said:


> Oh sure, not my thread. Carry on with your very impressive name-dropping




You must be easily impressed.  Most people would assume that as a promoter etc in MMA I would know fighters, would seem very silly if I didn't, it helps matchmaking for a start.



UserC said:


> Kickboxing specifically did not help much at all. I expected to struggle in sparring against the second level group and do well technically. It was the complete opposite. I could have gotten that sparring experience from any martial art with punches to the face.



I think you are assuming your problems are with kick boxing so it's led  to you believing quite a lot of false things about it. You can't do it properly so it's not your fault but kick boxing's. The boxers are better than you so therefore rather than it being you at fault again it must be the magic style. You have tried hard to convince us it's the style not you that is wrong, that boxers are naturally better than kick boxers. I can see why you would believe it, much easier than emptying your cup and applying yourself to the problem. This is down to you and only you. You failed at kickboxing, whether you also fail at boxing it remains to be seen.


----------



## Buka

UserC said:


> Kickboxing specifically did not help much at all.  I expected to struggle in sparring against the second level group and do well technically. It was the complete opposite. I could have gotten that sparring experience from any martial art with punches to the face.



If I may, what Martial Art did you train that got you into kick boxing? I'm not trying to interrogate you in any way, shape or form, honest. Just trying to understand the particular path you've taken. As a Martial Artist, former kick boxer, who's spent a lot of years training in boxing, I'm just trying to understand.


----------



## Headhunter

Well looks like the guys gone and gotten himself banned.


----------



## pdg

Headhunter said:


> Well looks like the guys gone and gotten himself banned.



Is there a way of telling?

I can't see anything different...


----------



## Headhunter

pdg said:


> Is there a way of telling?
> 
> I can't see anything different...


Click on his profile to view it and there's an error message


----------



## pdg

Headhunter said:


> Click on his profile to view it and there's an error message



I see, hadn't tried that before...


----------



## Axkick1

drop bear said:


> I thought it was the shiny pants style. Rather than say K1


I’d love to fight in “Shiny Pants” style kickboxing lol. Or full contact American PKA kickboxing. It’s just so hard to find now adays. It’s ashame.


----------



## chrissyp

Axkick1 said:


> I’d love to fight in “Shiny Pants” style kickboxing lol. Or full contact American PKA kickboxing. It’s just so hard to find now adays. It’s ashame.


Same here!


----------



## Gaucho

UserC said:


> I expect prime Mike Tyson would wreck Benny Urquidez, Bill Wallace, Joe Louis. Finesse boxers like Larry Holmes and Muhammed Ali would lose.



I that is so.  Boxing gets credit for being the ultimate fighting sport, with some justice, but it is not the same as combat. A top-notch boxing goon could have killed Ali in a fight in a small room.  

Karate's Joe Lewis was asked who hit him the hardest during his career, he replied: "Leon Spinks' sparring partners."


----------



## Buka

Gaucho said:


> I that is so.  Boxing gets credit for being the ultimate fighting sport, with some justice, but it is not the same as combat. A top-notch boxing goon could have killed Ali in a fight in a small room.
> 
> Karate's Joe Lewis was asked who hit him the hardest during his career, he replied: "Leon Spinks' sparring partners."



What is a top notch boxing goon?


----------



## Gaucho

Someone who is not quite as skilled in footwork as the very best, but who can knock out a rhino at close range.


----------



## Buka

Gaucho said:


> Someone who is not quite as skilled in footwork as the very best, but who can knock out a rhino at close range.



Ah, those guys.  And they're usually the most feared fighters in every weight division. At any level.


----------

