# Repeating downward knife thrust defense?



## joeygil (Feb 25, 2009)

Yeah I know I'd probably be dead unarmed against a knife (definately with a trained opponent), but just for academics sake...

Most of the limited knife training I've done (knife v. knife and knife v. empty hand) has been against diagonal or horizontal slashes / thrusts in a drill setting.

Any thoughts on going against an unskilled knife wielding attacker doing the classic quick up/down/up/down stab motion (ice pick grip)?


With a knife, you can try for the defang (or worse).  But what about empty hand?  

This type of motion seems a bit difficult to pass into a wrist-lock for a disarm or control, as it's downward (awkward to pass compared to diagonal/horizontal in my experience), and is essentially a retracting hit (witik).

One thing I recall learning was to side-step, and pass the knife on the outside, trying to guide it downward into their own leg, while you continue the side-step motion into a full on run to get away.


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## MJS (Feb 25, 2009)

joeygil said:


> Yeah I know I'd probably be dead unarmed against a knife (definately with a trained opponent), but just for academics sake...


 
Yes, many of us probably would be.



> Most of the limited knife training I've done (knife v. knife and knife v. empty hand) has been against diagonal or horizontal slashes / thrusts in a drill setting.
> 
> Any thoughts on going against an unskilled knife wielding attacker doing the classic quick up/down/up/down stab motion (ice pick grip)?
> 
> ...


 
One thing to keep in mind is to try to begin your defense before the attacker brings the blade down too far.  In other words, he draws back, that is when you want to move, not when the arm is already halfway down.  

As far as passing goes...it should be failry easy to redirect the blade into the leg or groin.

My suggestions would be...gain control ASAP.  If possible, I'd also suggest a counter strike pretty quick as well.


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## arnisador (Feb 25, 2009)

Assuming unarmed physical defense is the only option available...offline if possible, control the arm.


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## redantstyle (Feb 25, 2009)

> One thing to keep in mind is to try to begin your defense before the attacker brings the blade down too far. _*In other words, he draws back, that is when you want to move, not when the arm is already halfway down.
> *_
> As far as passing goes...it should be failry easy to redirect the blade into the leg or groin.
> 
> My suggestions would be...gain control ASAP. If possible, I'd also suggest a counter strike pretty quick as well.


 
timing is everything.


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## geezer (Feb 26, 2009)

arnisador said:


> *Assuming unarmed physical defense is the only option available*...offline if possible, control the arm.


 
Assuming that, I assume I'll get cut up, because unlike what MJS said,  when you go unarmed against a knife, _nothing is easy! (_Of course I understand that  MJS was using the term in a comparative sense.) 

As for myself: First option--run like hell. Second option: grab anything I could to use against my attacker: chair, briefcase, bottle, book, towel, _anything_. Third option: what you said.


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## harold (Feb 26, 2009)

geezer said:


> Assuming that, I assume I'll get cut up, because unlike what MJS said, when you go unarmed against a knife, _nothing is easy! (_Of course I understand that MJS was using the term in a comparative sense.)
> 
> As for myself: First option--run like hell. Second option: grab anything I could to use against my attacker: chair, briefcase, bottle, book, towel, _anything_. Third option: what you said.


 
 I cannot think of anything else that says it better.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 26, 2009)

All defence against knife attack is difficult. You should expect to at least recieve an injury in the skirmish. As to that specific attack, well, if you are late in seeing it coming chances are you will recieve a strike of some sort. I would think the natural reaction would be to raise your arms up to your face and head to protect that area. The blade will strike your forearms most likely, but what you should be thinking while defending this way, is to step into your attacker and 'rush' him/her. 
One of the drills we perform is the 'steamroller'. This is where you are surprised by an attacker and you charge into them with a flurry of blows and grabs and headbutts, driving the attacker to the floor with your momentum. It works pretty well against most attacks, but I'm not sure it's ideal for knife 'defence'. I would use it as a last resort if I really felt my life was in danger. But then, who really knows how we will react in this kind of scenario. I can only base how I may react on my previous experiences.

Fancy moves and wrist locks etc are not viable options against a determined attacker. Ask one of your sparring/training partners to use full strength and speed when coming at you with a strike or knife and you will see just how hard it is to actually get a hold on an arm. Don't get me wrong, wrist locks can and do work, as do arm bars etc, just not the way they are often trained in the dojo. You need to wait for the weakest point of an attacking arms trajectory before you can get a substantial reliable hold. 

Obviousyl, my post is based on having very last minute knowledge of the attack itself. If you have a little more time, then your options window widens slightly. The more time, the more options.

If you can't run, do what you must to survive.

Bottom line....... Expect to at least recieve an injury.


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## OCman44 (Feb 26, 2009)

Sandstorm said:


> All defence against knife attack is difficult. You should expect to at least recieve an injury in the skirmish. As to that specific attack, well, if you are late in seeing it coming chances are you will recieve a strike of some sort. I would think the natural reaction would be to raise your arms up to your face and head to protect that area. The blade will strike your forearms most likely, but what you should be thinking while defending this way, is to step into your attacker and 'rush' him/her.
> One of the drills we perform is the 'steamroller'. This is where you are surprised by an attacker and you charge into them with a flurry of blows and grabs and headbutts, driving the attacker to the floor with your momentum. It works pretty well against most attacks, but I'm not sure it's ideal for knife 'defence'. I would use it as a last resort if I really felt my life was in danger. But then, who really knows how we will react in this kind of scenario. I can only base how I may react on my previous experiences.
> 
> Fancy moves and wrist locks etc are not viable options against a determined attacker. Ask one of your sparring/training partners to use full strength and speed when coming at you with a strike or knife and you will see just how hard it is to actually get a hold on an arm. Don't get me wrong, wrist locks can and do work, as do arm bars etc, just not the way they are often trained in the dojo. You need to wait for the weakest point of an attacking arms trajectory before you can get a substantial reliable hold.
> ...


 
If someone with a knife were to attack a person who's been trained in Kali(Knife specifically), that knife defense wouldnt come in handy at all?  With all the negative reponses, its sort of disheartening and making me wish otherwise to train in Kali.  I've heard nothing but good things about Kali being "effective" in real life scenarios such as this and learning "Self defense" is something that Im VERY interested in learning from Kali.


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## arnisador (Feb 26, 2009)

In my opinion, the FMAs are the best knife-defense systems in existence. That having been said...the point people are trying to make is that a person with a knife is _very_ dangerous. I always say that when I teach...then I remind everyone that George Harrison survived a knife attack and overpowered (with help) and detained his attacker. He was 56 years old and already had the cancer that did kill him a couple of years later.

People, even people without training, survive knfie attackes all the time. Like George Harrison, they are often injured in the process. The point being made here is that no one should think "it's just a knife" (not a dedly weapon like a gun).

I've used the FMAs to defend myself against a mugger with a knife. I wasn't cut, but after blocking the thrust once and gaining distance I gave up my wallet (with all of $2 in it--I was a college student, 2 weeks before my black belt test and 4 monthes before graduation) and got out of there. A knife is too dangerous to mess with if it isn't absolutely necessary. So, stick with kali but keep a realistic perspective! It's great stuff but it's a serious situation of the other guy has a knife.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 27, 2009)

OCman44 said:


> If someone with a knife were to attack a person who's been trained in Kali(Knife specifically), that knife defense wouldnt come in handy at all? With all the negative reponses, its sort of disheartening and making me wish otherwise to train in Kali. I've heard nothing but good things about Kali being "effective" in real life scenarios such as this and learning "Self defense" is something that Im VERY interested in learning from Kali.


 
hey, don't be disheartened:ultracool, Kali is a beautiful art, and one of my favourites. The knife fighting and defence techniques are superb, and there will obviously be something in what you learn that may help save your life one day. However, as my and Arnisador's post explains, please, please do not be complaicent about a knife attack. As I said, fancy moves will be extremely difficult to pull of, unless you are Ron Balicki or Ray Dionaldo. Even they would probably run as oposed to fight. Speed, timing, strength, response over surprise etc etc, all elements to consider when confronted with this scenario. I believe the Samurai used to embrace/accept death before they hit the battlefield. This made them the exceptional warriors they were.

Please, do not be put off by my response/advice here. Take up Kali, it's a wonderful art. The chances of you ever having to use it in SD are less than minimal (depending on where you live of course). The average person will never even _see_ a violent attack in their lifetime.
Hope this has reassured you 

Kind regards
John


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## Aikicomp (Feb 27, 2009)

When I teach our moving knife and knife defense tests I always tell my students to expect to get cut the key thing here being if you are going to get cut make to a non vital place of the body if you can help it. When we practice for the tests we come at the students as an attacker would, with full intention to cut them to ribbons (we chalk the edge of a rubber knife to show them where, why and how they got cut) which requires commitment and realness of attack.

Knives are very dangerous weapons and as said before never be taken lightly, however with practice you can become less intimidated by them and you have to learn to get control of the weapon AND it's motor for any technique to even begin to work effectively which means practice, practice, practice until you are tired of practicing and then practice some more. It may save your life one day.

Michael


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## MJS (Feb 27, 2009)

OCman44 said:


> If someone with a knife were to attack a person who's been trained in Kali(Knife specifically), that knife defense wouldnt come in handy at all? With all the negative reponses, its sort of disheartening and making me wish otherwise to train in Kali. I've heard nothing but good things about Kali being "effective" in real life scenarios such as this and learning "Self defense" is something that Im VERY interested in learning from Kali.


 
Look at the OPs opening line...



> Yeah I know I'd probably be dead unarmed against a knife *(definately with a trained opponent)*, but just for academics sake...


 
take note of the bold part.  I took that as a trained knife fighter, say someone like Leo Gaje.  Yes, if someone with his skill were to attack me, I'd probably be dead, despite my number of years in Arnis.  Now, against the average joe, the druggie, who is looking to mug someone for his next fix....in that case, yes, I'd probably stand a better chance of defending myself.   I love the FMAs, and I've said many times that I put more value in the weapon defenses in those arts, than I do in many other arts.  

However, there are a few defenses, one in particular from Arnis, for an over head stab, that I, for the life of me, would not do, unless I was at the level of Remy Presas himself.  My teachers have told me that they've seen him pull off the same defense with success during seminars.  Again, I'm far, far, far away from Remys skill, so in that case, I'd opt for another defense.  

Make no mistake about it...the FMAs, as I said, have some fantastic weapons work.  But like all arts, there may be a move or two that may not suit every person.


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## mook jong man (Feb 27, 2009)

When I trained in Floro Fighting Systems which is mainly Ilustrisimo with fencing footwork and a couple of other things added to it . We were taught to use what my teacher called the x block , which is the same whether we have a knife in our hand or not .

 Its basically one forearm horizontal (holding knife or not) with the other forearm vertical and braced behind it , a very strong structure. But the main thing he impressed on me is that in order to stop that pumping action with knife you have to use extreme and aggressive forward pressure against the blokes arm , pretty much charging into them . 

So as soon as the knife is raised and starts to come down you lunge into them with your head buried down into your arms and you ram the x block into their forearm , making sure that you are continuing to aggressively move forward.

 You then capture the weapon arm and follow up with elbows ,hammerfists ,eye rakes etc . You can also use the same technique for a knife thrust to the abdomen , but it is crucial that you charge into them with aggressive forward momentum and stick to that forearm otherwise it is very difficult to stop them retracting the knife and stabbing again.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 27, 2009)

Aikicomp said:


> When I teach our moving knife and knife defense tests I always tell my students to expect to get cut the key thing here being if you are going to get cut make to a non vital place of the body if you can help it. When we practice for the tests we come at the students as an attacker would, with full intention to cut them to ribbons (we chalk the edge of a rubber knife to show them where, why and how they got cut) which requires commitment and realness of attack.
> 
> Knives are very dangerous weapons and as said before never be taken lightly, however with practice you can become less intimidated by them and you have to learn to get control of the weapon AND it's motor for any technique to even begin to work effectively which means *practice, practice, practice until you are tired of practicing and then practice some more*. It may save your life one day.
> 
> Michael


 
Absolutely. But make sure you practice properly. Don't drift off into a fantasy land of slow-mo strikes and unrealistic wrist grab/twists etc. The smaller the target area you want to control, the harder it will be to grab at full speed and power. 



MJS said:


> I've said many times that I put more value in the weapon defenses in those arts, than I do in many other arts.


 
Agreed. They are probably the most complete realistic self defence 'art' in existance IMO.



MJS said:


> However, there are a few defenses, one in particular from Arnis, for an over head stab, that I, for the life of me, would not do, unless I was at the level of Remy Presas himself. My teachers have told me that they've seen him pull off the same defense with success during seminars. Again, I'm far, far, far away from Remys skill, so in that case, I'd opt for another defense.


 
Again, agreed. If you're facing an experienced wielder, chances are slim you will come out ok. Even if you are against someone with none or little experience, chances are you will incur damage. As Aikicomp says, make sure that the area hit is a non-vital one. 





mook jong man said:


> When I trained in Floro Fighting Systems which is mainly Ilustrisimo with fencing footwork and a couple of other things added to it . We were taught to use what my teacher called the x block , which is the same whether we have a knife in our hand or not .
> 
> Its basically one forearm horizontal (holding knife or not) with the other forearm vertical and braced behind it , a very strong structure. But the main thing he impressed on me is that in order to stop that pumping action with knife you have to use extreme and aggressive forward pressure against the blokes arm , pretty much charging into them .
> 
> ...


 
I'm indecicive about the X-block. We were taught it as defence against a club or baseball bat etc in Ken-Bu-Kan, and I really don't (personally) feel comfortable with it's effectiveness. I've never used it in SD or at work because of the many other options available that I found more suited (again, just a personal thing). 
I do, however, absolutely agree with the charge. As I said in one of my earlier posts, we use the 'steamroller', which is the same thing really. Only difference is I'd be more inclined to focus on protecting my head from being struck by covering up on entry, then unleashing god only knows on the attacker, softening him up in fractions of seconds before going for the knife hand. Agreed, you need to remove the blade from the equasion asap, but not to the detriment of losing control of your intentions. As I said, you may get sliced or stabbed in the forearms, but it's preferable to the head and hands.

Just my personal opinion

Kind regards
John


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## MJS (Feb 27, 2009)

I've gone over the use of the X block a few times, and I too, am a bit cautious on its use.  Here's why.  IMO, during many knife defenses, the use of the attackers other hand is often over looked.  Seems like many focus on just the weapon hand, and forget that the badguy could be striking with his free hand.  So, it could be possible for the BG, to use his free hand to check our X block, and pull the blade back, cutting us in the process.  We do a knife drill in class, where the person with the knife is executing various stabs on the other person.  After the defender parries and/or blocks, depending on the strike, the attacker uses his free hand to check and pulls the knife.

However, this doesn't mean that I threw the X block out altogether.  Its slightly altered, so that say for a straight thrust, we're moving off on an angle, doing a downward type block with one hand and once the blade is redirected, the other hand comes into play.  So in a way, its still an X block, but the hands initially are not together.  

For the over head stab, the X could still be used, and keeping the motion going, redirect the blade towards the attacker.  Of course, while working various defenses, I've also used a single upward type block with one hand, while counter striking with the other.  I do this in hopes to buy myself a little time and momentarily take the focus off of the knife, so I can continue my defense.


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## jks9199 (Feb 27, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> When I trained in Floro Fighting Systems which is mainly Ilustrisimo with fencing footwork and a couple of other things added to it . We were taught to use what my teacher called the x block , which is the same whether we have a knife in our hand or not .
> 
> Its basically one forearm horizontal (holding knife or not) with the other forearm vertical and braced behind it , a very strong structure. But the main thing he impressed on me is that in order to stop that pumping action with knife you have to use extreme and aggressive forward pressure against the blokes arm , pretty much charging into them .
> 
> ...


May I suggest that you take the knives out of your hands, put on some good boxing headgear, and give this technique a try with just a hammer fist?  You might not be very happy with the results, as you describe it.  At the very least, you'll find out what you need to do to make it work.

There's a place for x-blocks and reinforced blocks; I'm not saying there's not, but the ice-pick/classic stalker movie attack is probably not the best one.  You're trying to match force on force...


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## mook jong man (Feb 27, 2009)

Yeah , I didn't explain myself very well , he calls it the x- frame not x-block but it is not like a classical martial arts x- block and as you move in and block the knife arm , the arm that you block with can then convert straight into an elbow strike which is rammed into their sternum. 

It sort of happens all in one motion , and your head is protected on entry because it is buried inside your forearms , this is to stop the point of the knife hitting your skull as you intercept the arm. 

There is a couple of small pictures of him doing it on his website
http://www.florofightingsystems.com/


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## mook jong man (Feb 27, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> May I suggest that you take the knives out of your hands, put on some good boxing headgear, and give this technique a try with just a hammer fist? You might not be very happy with the results, as you describe it. At the very least, you'll find out what you need to do to make it work.
> 
> There's a place for x-blocks and reinforced blocks; I'm not saying there's not, but the ice-pick/classic stalker movie attack is probably not the best one. You're trying to match force on force...


 
Maybe I didn't explain It properly and we used to spar with hockey helmets on , against force that would nearly knock you out .

 Anyway I think my teacher Raymond Floro knows what he is doing , he is a very practical thinking man and his techniques are pressure tested . I don't have to defend his techniques his reputation speaks for itself .


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2009)

OCman44 said:


> If someone with a knife were to attack a person who's been trained in Kali(Knife specifically), that knife defense wouldnt come in handy at all? With all the negative reponses, its sort of disheartening and making me wish otherwise to train in Kali. I've heard nothing but good things about Kali being "effective" in real life scenarios such as this and learning "Self defense" is something that Im VERY interested in learning from Kali.


 
OCman et al,

It would be negligent of those of us to reply that if you do X then you are safe. If a person walks away with the idea that they have seen it once or talked about it on the internet and or practiced it once or twice that it will always work, then that is bad. As that person walking from this would be in a bad situation thinking that had something. 

If a person trains for blade work they soon realize that hands move and blades shift and people clash and the more realistic people say if the blade touches them then they are cut or injured. This is to amke people think and realize they need to practice and even if they do not to expect a magic bullet, golden egg, brass ring, what have you to save them. 

It takes work.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2009)

MJS said:


> I've gone over the use of the X block a few times, and I too, am a bit cautious on its use. Here's why. IMO, during many knife defenses, the use of the attackers other hand is often over looked. Seems like many focus on just the weapon hand, and forget that the badguy could be striking with his free hand. So, it could be possible for the BG, to use his free hand to check our X block, and pull the blade back, cutting us in the process. We do a knife drill in class, where the person with the knife is executing various stabs on the other person. After the defender parries and/or blocks, depending on the strike, the attacker uses his free hand to check and pulls the knife.
> 
> However, this doesn't mean that I threw the X block out altogether. Its slightly altered, so that say for a straight thrust, we're moving off on an angle, doing a downward type block with one hand and once the blade is redirected, the other hand comes into play. So in a way, its still an X block, but the hands initially are not together.
> 
> For the over head stab, the X could still be used, and keeping the motion going, redirect the blade towards the attacker. Of course, while working various defenses, I've also used a single upward type block with one hand, while counter striking with the other. I do this in hopes to buy myself a little time and momentarily take the focus off of the knife, so I can continue my defense.


 

While the "X" block can be a force to force motion it also can be a softer version. (* Which I know you already know. *) The software version gets people moving both hands at the same time and also moving their feet and this gives people attributes from their training that can help them in the long run for an encounter. 

The off hand or feet are real threats. But in training many times people break things down to teach a concept or skill or attribute. This then gets applied later to other concepts and skills to move the student/instructor forward in their training and possible self defense. 

So, placing two hands on a person and having your body being on the outside (* techniques and concepts maybe learned later *) gives people a fighting chance to take glancing blows versus direct blows. 

As mentioned timing is also a key player, but people first need to learn technique and movement and balance and then the timing slowly so they can practice.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2009)

To make things worse try the following:

Two knifes - both hands moving in opposite directions. i.e. when one goes up the other goes down. 

Have the person with both in ice pick, then both in hammer grips then mix tehm one of each and see what happens. How the differences are. 

If both in hammer and looking for advanced try it with some rompida (* wrist rotation so you always have the edge on the side of the blade that is moving. This should look like a scissors for the blades if they were close to each other.


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## punisher73 (Feb 27, 2009)

MJS said:


> I've gone over the use of the X block a few times, and I too, am a bit cautious on its use. Here's why. IMO, during many knife defenses, the use of the attackers other hand is often over looked. Seems like many focus on just the weapon hand, and forget that the badguy could be striking with his free hand. So, it could be possible for the BG, to use his free hand to check our X block, and pull the blade back, cutting us in the process. We do a knife drill in class, where the person with the knife is executing various stabs on the other person. After the defender parries and/or blocks, depending on the strike, the attacker uses his free hand to check and pulls the knife.
> 
> However, this doesn't mean that I threw the X block out altogether. Its slightly altered, so that say for a straight thrust, we're moving off on an angle, doing a downward type block with one hand and once the blade is redirected, the other hand comes into play. So in a way, its still an X block, but the hands initially are not together.
> 
> For the over head stab, the X could still be used, and keeping the motion going, redirect the blade towards the attacker. Of course, while working various defenses, I've also used a single upward type block with one hand, while counter striking with the other. I do this in hopes to buy myself a little time and momentarily take the focus off of the knife, so I can continue my defense.


 
Couple of things.  When you start talking about the attacker's other hand you are starting to delve into someone who knows what they are doing with a knife or with fighting.  I think the original topic was to address somebody just grabbing a knife and trying to stab you like Norman Bates.  That is a completely different attack and mindset than someone who knows how to fight and is just using the overhead line of attack.

The x-block is just meant to be a temporary stopping point so to speak and is based on most people's natural flinch response, so it can be pulled off easier than more complicated respones.  You raise your arms and jam the attack as you move offline and then use the arms to pass and control the attacking limb.  This is a very good response against an untrained attacker with the knife because you don't have to worry about other variables as a trained attacker.

The other thing I notice is that anytime a knife is mentioned people automatically assume that the person is versed in FMA.  For the average person learning skills time would be better spent learning responses that fit the average criminal attack and then add in more later.


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## arnisador (Feb 27, 2009)

Lots of criminals know more about the knife, and using the free hand as a distraction/grab, than you might think, though.

But yes, some people go overboard in countering the naive assumption that "it's just like a punch and I can block it the same way" and end up making it sound like it's undefendable. The point is that even in a beginner's hands it's dangerous. Give your 11 year old nephew two Red Bulls then challenge him to mark you with a highlighter and offer him $5 per mark. It's eye-opening.

When you're defending the knife, you're playing boxing against an opponent who only has to play tag.


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## joeygil (Feb 27, 2009)

Thanks for all the responses and thoughtful commentary.   


My original post was about an untrained attacker.  Not even necessarily a criminal, who would have a plan and doesn't want to die- but as mentioned "Norman Bates."

In a case like that, this "X-block" might very well be effective - just not against a trained opponent (already covered).

Interesting point about the 11 year old nephew.  Problem with that scenario is my sister would hate it if I ended up throwing that sungkite to her son's eyes or knees to the groin.


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## OCman44 (Feb 27, 2009)

Rich Parsons said:


> OCman et al,
> 
> It would be negligent of those of us to reply that if you do X then you are safe. If a person walks away with the idea that they have seen it once or talked about it on the internet and or practiced it once or twice that it will always work, then that is bad. As that person walking from this would be in a bad situation thinking that had something.
> 
> ...


 
Oh yes, I perfectly understand that training in knife defense will take time. Im not expecting to goto 1 or 2 training sessions and expect to know how to defend myself, I know that its going to take awhile and Im willing to go the length of saying that Im willing to take the time thats needed to become proficient in Kali(if thats possible). You'd be safe to say that Im rather obsessed with wanting to train in Kali(and ill train in it for yrs once I start)

What im saying is that I've done alot of research for the past yr or a little more, spoke to a lot of ppl in-person, visited training facilities, spoke with instructors and my main reason for wanting to train in Kali is for self defense as well as some other reasons(A fun hobby, confidence of knowing an amazing self defense art) which is where Im going with this. Self defense. I know the original poster is speaking about defending someone who's trained in fighting with a knife. From some of the responses, a decent amount of posts stated that you'd likely be dead or rather get hurt badly and Im befuddled by that. Why I posted was because seing as how Kali is primarily a weapon based art I figured that if someone(trained in Kali) were to defend against an attacker wielding a knife that yes you'd have a chance to defend it more successfully vs someone who has no training at all.

Now, I don't know if the OP is talking about an attacker with a knife going against someone trained in Kali or attacking someone who has no experience in Kali so maybe Im reading into this whole thing wrong.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2009)

OCman44 said:


> Oh yes, I perfectly understand that training in knife defense will take time. Im not expecting to goto 1 or 2 training sessions and expect to know how to defend myself, I know that its going to take awhile and Im willing to go the length of saying that Im willing to take the time thats needed to become proficient in Kali(if thats possible). You'd be safe to say that Im rather obsessed with wanting to train in Kali(and ill train in it for yrs once I start)
> 
> What im saying is that I've done alot of research for the past yr or a little more, spoke to a lot of ppl in-person, visited training facilities, spoke with instructors and my main reason for wanting to train in Kali is for self defense as well as some other reasons(A fun hobby, confidence of knowing an amazing self defense art) which is where Im going with this. Self defense. I know the original poster is speaking about defending someone who's trained in fighting with a knife. From some of the responses, a decent amount of posts stated that you'd likely be dead or rather get hurt badly and Im befuddled by that. Why I posted was because seing as how Kali is primarily a weapon based art I figured that if someone(trained in Kali) were to defend against an attacker wielding a knife that yes you'd have a chance to defend it more successfully vs someone who has no training at all.
> 
> Now, I don't know if the OP is talking about an attacker with a knife going against someone trained in Kali or attacking someone who has no experience in Kali so maybe Im reading into this whole thing wrong.




If the opponent is a skilled blade fighter and you are a skilled blade fighter the winner could be the one to watch the other die before he dies. That is the reality of a blade encounter. 

When I train with other who know blade work we all end up with red marks on are arms (* aluminum blades - no edges but still metal for feel of contact and impact *) and hands. This shows that unless your timing is perfect you will be just a little bit off and you can get cut. Now those that are trained usually get cut in locations that would allow them to continue. 

So, one could train in an FMA to get better at blades and be better than the average person on the street. I have taken blades away from people in real life encounters. I have scars on my arm and one on my leg from being cut. Those who train with the blade are many times some of the most humble as we know the attributes of the weapon and understand its' effects. 

If you enjoy the training it would be good for you as if you enjoy it people do it. 

If you want the self defense it is good for that as well as it has some good points and treats and "respects" what the blade can do. 

If you compare, and I am biased here as a practitioner of FMA's, I think the FMA's teach very well the blade and stick weapons. I think one can learn a lot of self defense. If you are prepared for the blade then the stick moving as fast but as impact is not as big a worry. It is to be respected as it can still take you out but you begin to feel more comfortable with it. The same goes for empty hands. Once weapons start to move, moving back to empty hands can give a person more time to think and respond. As there is more distance the the tip of the weapon (* stick or blade *) is moving faster than an empty hand. 

Having respect for something does not mean the trainnig is bad. 

I have respect for driving. I have had lots of exposure and some training that normal drivers do not get. Just access to test sites and vehicles. But I still respect the vehicle. 

Familiarity breeds contempt in many cases, but for the blade work I think most are realistic in the FMA's. 

Some people just drive their car. They have training from a long time ago and never refresh it. They do not check out new laws or the capabilities of vehicles. They drive "safe" and avoid bad roads or going off-road. They know their limitations or are afraid of what could happen and avoid certain situations. 

The self defense person learns to avoid situations as well, by learning how they carry a blade and how others carry a blade and recognizing it. The same is true for firearms. Once you get used to scanning people for weapons it becomes second nature. Many also scan people and rate their threat level. Some out of fear. Some out of ego. Many for self defense and to avoid a situation. 

But how does one begin to see this learning? They train with the weapon and with others who know the weapon. You have an interest. Keep it and check it out. The investment is worth while from my point of view and opinion. 

Many people who never been attacked would jsut stand and be stabbed.

Many people who have trained empty hand would freeze as well with the knife as they would not know what to do. 

Many others would just reach out and try to grab it. While this might work with the untrained or lessor trained, the original poster stated skilled opponent. So I would expect many people to get stabed here as well. 

The few trained opponents going up against trained opponents will depend upon a lot of conditions of training, sleep, awareness, etcetera. 

I have an expereince of a guy with an axe handle chasing peopel around and he came at me. I grabed a training stick out of my car and passed off and down as I was creating room. I swung again I repeated the move form the other side. He stepped back and stated, "I will be back for you later."

While I had only been training a few months at that time, I knew enough to match his skill and intent that he decided to go after others. To many present this guy was a skilled axe wielding opponent as he was large and swung it hard and did not over extend himself to allow people to close and tackle him down. He could have been and probably had more training time with his weapon than I did. I may have been lucky. But it was enough for the self defense encounter to keep the bad guy who was bigger than me away from me with a bigger and longer weapon that I had.


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## joeygil (Feb 28, 2009)

@OCMan

I think the general consensus is, Kali is probably the best MA you can study for knife defense.  But even that won't make you invincible.  It may save your life in an altercation, but don't be surprised if you get cut in the process.

This is knife vs. empty hand I brought up.  I know a lot of folks around here carry a small pocket folder or something else that can be used as an equalizer.  That's a completely different game.

I personally don't have much knife experience, and have just gotten back into Kali recently - so don't take me or my questions as an example of an experienced FMAer.


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## mook jong man (Feb 28, 2009)

joeygil said:


> @OCMan
> 
> I think the general consensus is, Kali is probably the best MA you can study for knife defense. But even that won't make you invincible. It may save your life in an altercation, but don't be surprised if you get cut in the process.
> 
> ...


 
In my country if the police catch you with a knife on you , chances are you will be going to jail.


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## arnisador (Feb 28, 2009)

joeygil said:


> This is knife vs. empty hand I brought up.  I know a lot of folks around here carry a small pocket folder or something else that can be used as an equalizer.  That's a completely different game.



Time and again I hear from people that they never had time to deploy their own blade, _especially_ if it was a folder. By the time they knew they were under attack they needed all their attention (and hands) to defend themselves. It's not as easy as it seems!


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## punisher73 (Feb 28, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Lots of criminals know more about the knife, and using the free hand as a distraction/grab, than you might think, though.
> 
> But yes, some people go overboard in countering the naive assumption that "it's just like a punch and I can block it the same way" and end up making it sound like it's undefendable. The point is that even in a beginner's hands it's dangerous. Give your 11 year old nephew two Red Bulls then challenge him to mark you with a highlighter and offer him $5 per mark. It's eye-opening.
> 
> When you're defending the knife, you're playing boxing against an opponent who only has to play tag.


 
I work in LE, and I'm one of our depts knife instructors, I am *no where* *near* the experience as alot of the FMAists on this board and don't claim to be. But, I am aware of what most criminal attacks are and try to keep up on that.  I can't remember where I saw/read the statistic, but it was a VERY high percentage (over 75%) of knife attacks involved a heat of the moment type thing and it was an overhead strike the second type of attack was repeated abdominal thrusts.  Again, the 'average' person is much more likely to encounter that (not including bouncers, security, police etc.) in their lives than the other type of attack.  It should also go without saying that knowing your location and where you hang out greatly effects things as well too.

One of my first karate instructors was being threatened by someone holding a knife and he hit the arm with two inward hammer strikes and broke the forearm and the guy dropped the knife.  Only point that out because there is a big difference when someone is threatening and attacking and you must undertand the dynamics of the situation.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 28, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Lots of criminals know more about the knife, and using the free hand as a distraction/grab, than you might think, though..


 
Agreed. There are generally two types of carrier in my opinion/experience. The first is the paranoid potential 'victim' who thinks he/she should have it for protection, and there's those with criminal intent. The former will have no idea how to use it, let alone deploy it for defence, and even if they do, chances are they will end up being stabbed by their own blade. The latter will have at least minimal experience, as well as the psychological advantage, as his/her mindset will be adjusted for the use of the knife.



arnisador said:


> But yes, some people go overboard in countering the naive assumption that "it's just like a punch and I can block it the same way" and end up making it sound like it's undefendable. The point is that even in a beginner's hands it's dangerous. Give your 11 year old nephew two Red Bulls then challenge him to mark you with a highlighter and offer him $5 per mark. It's eye-opening.
> 
> When you're defending the knife, you're playing boxing against an opponent who only has to play tag.


 
The marker pen drill is a good one. Chalking or putting lipstick on a plastic blade and practicing the '30 second slice and dice' is another excellent way to realise how dangerous it is and how vulnerable you are.




mook jong man said:


> In my country if the police catch you with a knife on you , chances are you will be going to jail.


 
Likewise here in the UK. Even a pocket utility knife such as a Swiss Army knife can get you in trouble. You need a damned good reason to have one on your person.



arnisador said:


> Time and again I hear from people that they never had time to deploy their own blade, _especially_ if it was a folder. By the time they knew they were under attack they needed all their attention (and hands) to defend themselves. It's not as easy as it seems!


 
Again, agreed. Deploying any knife or weapon of any kind takes extreme reaction under that pressure. You are in the heat of a volatile situation where your life is in immediate danger. If you don't have the mindset of a 'fighter', it's going to be tough _without_ the knife, Let alone with one and remembering it's in your pocket.



punisher73 said:


> I work in LE, and I'm one of our depts knife instructors, I am *no where* *near* the experience as alot of the FMAists on this board and don't claim to be. But, I am aware of what most criminal attacks are and try to keep up on that. I can't remember where I saw/read the statistic, but it was a VERY high percentage (over 75%) of knife attacks involved a heat of the moment type thing and it was an overhead strike the second type of attack was repeated abdominal thrusts. Again, the 'average' person is much more likely to encounter that (not including bouncers, security, police etc.) in their lives than the other type of attack. It should also go without saying that knowing your location and where you hang out greatly effects things as well too..


 
Those statistics sound about right. Chances are very slim you are going to be facing an experienced and trained individual. You are more likely to encounter someone with 'street' knowledge, who can look after themselves and know how to hold the blade and thrust etc. They will not be aiming for dibilitating slices like an experienced knifer. they will most likely be looking for the stab or thrust at the head or stomach. More knowledgable users will more likely go for main arteries and subtle slices to incapacitate the opponant.



punisher73 said:


> One of my first karate instructors was being threatened by someone holding a knife and he hit the arm with two inward hammer strikes and broke the forearm and the guy dropped the knife. Only point that out because there is a big difference when someone is threatening and attacking and you must undertand the dynamics of the situation.


 
I spent 8 years working nightclub doors, and I had mainly to deal with open hand attacks. When weapons were involved, it was usually stools or ash trays or glass etc. I only encountered 5 knives. 3 of those were attackers and I got cut once, by one attacker in one incident. I had my jacket shredded by one as I tried to restrain him and took a slice on the forearm. Fortunately I overpowered him and managed to get him to the floor with my knee in his back and his knife arm bent up above my knee. He still held the blade. Two coleagues came over and one held his legs and the other reinforced my hold on his arm. It was over in a flash, the whole thing from start to finish and the police took the guy away. I was lucky enough to not need stitches as the cut wasn't deep. Had the guy been more experienced, or this not happened in the winter, I would have suffered worse injuries for sure.

I respect anyone who faces this stuff regularly, such as LE and security. If a knife is being pulled, chances are there is intent to use. Your Karate instructor did the wise thing IMO, but having no real in depth knowledge of the situation and the opponant etc, it's hard to say for certain. Point is, there was intent, and if you can spot that in time, and the opponant appears nervous and unskilled, sure, why not go for it. Personally, I would never go for it unless I knew without a shadow of doubt that there was nowhere to run, hide or avoid the situation. If it's your job, you have no choise but to get stuck in there and deal with it. The average Joe on the street? They should avoid it at all costs.

Just my opinion of course. I really wish I could sit here and say 'yeah, you know, that spinning backfist/split entry uppercut/sweep/gooseneck lock combo works a treat on a knifer'. I'm sorry, I can't. This isn't a Van Damme/Seagal movie


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 28, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Time and again I hear from people that they never had time to deploy their own blade, _especially_ if it was a folder. By the time they knew they were under attack they needed all their attention (and hands) to defend themselves. It's not as easy as it seems!




This is true from my experience.


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## OCman44 (Feb 28, 2009)

Defending against a knife wielding person while in Empty hands is apart of Kali training though isnt it?  

Knife vs Empty Hands
Knife vs knife
etc..etc..etc

Kali trains in many different situations based off the weapon type correct?  Thats the impression I've gotten from my learnings that Ive experienced.

Example:  The Bourne movie where he picks up a pen and defends himself vs another knife.  Or another scene where he's empty handed while defending against the guy who's wielding a knife.

What im asking is that Kali does train in the different situations based off what a persons wielding whether it be an edged weapon or empty hands?


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## Sandstorm (Feb 28, 2009)

OCman44 said:


> Defending against a knife wielding person while in Empty hands is apart of Kali training though isnt it?


 
Yes, it is




OCman44 said:


> Kali trains in many different situations based off the weapon type correct? Thats the impression I've gotten from my learnings that Ive experienced.
> 
> *Example: The Bourne movie where he picks up a pen and defends himself vs another knife. Or another scene where he's empty handed while defending against the guy who's wielding a knife.*
> 
> What im asking is that Kali does train in the different situations based off what a persons wielding whether it be an edged weapon or empty hands?


 
Seriously, don't look at the movies for how effective an art is. People would be doing Van Damme flying kicks outside nightclubs if this were the case:ultracool

Kali primarily covers the knife and stick. There is also Sarong work which is really useful, especially if you like wearing scarves in winter
While some of the techniques may well work against certain opponants in certain situations, you have to look at it realistically. Turn the coin over and see yourself as the knife wielding attacker. Are you going to leave your arm out for your victim to grab and twist? Are you going to thrust directly forward with an inside step to allow him to take an outside entry/straight arm bar/drop and roll? Chances are, you are going to cut and thrust quickly and unpredictably. Seriously, try out some techniques, as suggested, using a marker pen and a white shirt. Get the person to slash across the shirt as you try and impliment your grabs and locks. It is very very hard, even for someone who's trained for many years.
What you _will _learn through flow drills, is reactions, timing and speed. You will be much better equipped to handle most situations for sure. It all depends on the situation itself as to wether or not you _should._

Summary.....

Is Kali a good art for self defence against a knife?........Yes, absolutely.
Is it worth learning Kali over anything else?...........Yes, absolutely
Why? Because you will gain a better understanding of knife mechanics. You will appreciate the dangers and be aware of what is and what isn't viable in self defence. You will also learn to respect the knife. IMO, these things are far more important than some instructor making you drill out unrealistic techniques that could end up putting you in hospital or a grave.

One more thing, if you want to look at Kali in the movies, The Hunted is pretty good. It's one of the more realistic fight sequences in the end, with both fighters in very bad condition after the confrontation:ultracool

Please don't be put off by this. Kali really is a wonderful art and you should enjoy learning it. Chances of you ever needing to use it are minimal anyway. Don't believe all you read in the newspapers


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## OCman44 (Feb 28, 2009)

Sandstorm said:


> Yes, it is
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well I know not to base an art off of a movie but I'm giving examples of what I'm wondering about kali and its techniques I.e. knife vs knife.  pen vs knife.  hand to hand..                          what I'm wondering is if  a situation like that in the movie where he picks up a pen vs the knife attacker.  is that somethin someone in kali could do if something came up like that.  could someone pick up a pen(edged weapon) and use the techniques that you learned with a knife.

also I'm als very interested in the empty hand part of the training.  I know theres Panatuken part of kali that empty hand.  how is the empty hand techniques of kali in real world self defense against someone else who's empty hand.  sort of like a fist fight.  and are empty hand techniques effective or decent against wild swingers?(which a lot of realistic fights turn out to be)


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## Sandstorm (Feb 28, 2009)

You can use anything to your advantage once you've grasped the concept of handling an impliment. If you train with the Rattan stick, you will get a fel for movement and grip. It's no good picking up a broom if you can't keep hold of it:mst:
As for the pen, absolutely, of course. Everything and anything can be used. As I said, you will most likely learn the Sarong, which you could swap for rope or chain or a scarf etc etc. Everything is possible.

As for the movies etc, I'm sure you're not looking at them as being a good guide. Try watching these clips on Youtube. Oftentimes, youtube has some dodgy people displaying nonsense, but when you come across good ones, they really are good. Some of the clips are Ray Dionaldo, who is an exceptional Kali practitioner/FMAer. There are also clips of Guru Inosanto in there and some military training.

Enjoy...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAtBAm88ETI&feature=PlayList&p=909027F6EDB27236&playnext=1&index=2


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## MJS (Feb 28, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Couple of things. When you start talking about the attacker's other hand you are starting to delve into someone who knows what they are doing with a knife or with fighting. I think the original topic was to address somebody just grabbing a knife and trying to stab you like Norman Bates. That is a completely different attack and mindset than someone who knows how to fight and is just using the overhead line of attack.


 
Ahh...good points.  Of course, I'm wondering if its possible for the person to pull the knife down on the defenders hands, even if they're not using their other hand.  I'll have to play around with that.



> The x-block is just meant to be a temporary stopping point so to speak and is based on most people's natural flinch response, so it can be pulled off easier than more complicated respones. You raise your arms and jam the attack as you move offline and then use the arms to pass and control the attacking limb. This is a very good response against an untrained attacker with the knife because you don't have to worry about other variables as a trained attacker.


 
Absolutely.   I have no issues with that type of block, as long as it flows to something else.  In other words, be fluid, not robotic when using the block.  There're a few other Arnis and Kenpo techniques that use the block.



> The other thing I notice is that anytime a knife is mentioned people automatically assume that the person is versed in FMA. For the average person learning skills time would be better spent learning responses that fit the average criminal attack and then add in more later.


 
Agreed.  I've said many times that the person whos trying to mug me at the ATM probably isn't a BJJ BB or FMA master.  Of course, speaking for myself only, I'd rather assume the worst...in other words, have the knowledge to deal with the person if they were trained and not need it, vs. not having the training and wishing I had.


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## MJS (Feb 28, 2009)

OCman44 said:


> Defending against a knife wielding person while in Empty hands is apart of Kali training though isnt it?
> 
> Knife vs Empty Hands
> Knife vs knife
> ...


 
Yes to all of your questions.  I've worked empty hand vs. knife, knife vs. knife, knife vs. stick, stick vs. empty hand.  That is the beauty of the FMAs....you can work, with some slight modifications, a stick vs. stick technique, even if you were empty handed.  I could do the same thing if I hand a knife and they had a stick.  

A pen, while it won't be the same as a real blade, can deliver some devastating hits.


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## tellner (Feb 28, 2009)

Sandstorm said:


> Is Kali a good art for self defence against a knife?........Yes, absolutely.
> Is it worth learning Kali over anything else?...........Yes, absolutely


Not really.

Kali is only one of several martial arts that offers effective knife and counter-knife training. The Russians are very good at this sort of thing. So are the Indonesians. The Arabs are no slouches. Neither are the Basque. I've had a bit of FMA over the years. What I recently realized is that it's very, very easy to use a knife to kill someone. A lot easier than most of the FMA teachers I've seen let on. And defending against one is a lot harder. 

Some of the teachers really don't know what they're doing because that's how they were taught. A lot of good ones know but don't teach out of a sense of responsibility. It's just too easy, and do you really want to show everyone who walks through the door how easy it is to kill? You don't if you are any sort of decent human being.

I've met a lot of Pinoys who say "My father (or uncle, or grandfather) was really good, but he wouldn't teach me. He said we don't need that in America." 

Some of the very good teachers like Guro Inosanto and the late Suro Inay took a lot of the really murderous knife work out of their public teaching and reserved it for a few advanced students if they taught it at all. Much of the "defang the snake" or "negotiating position" stuff will give the student some useful skills. But it is oriented towards self defense with a minimum of dead bodies rather than zipping the other guy as efficiently as possible. 



> One more thing, if you want to look at Kali in the movies, The Hunted is pretty good. It's one of the more realistic fight sequences in the end, with both fighters in very bad condition after the confrontation:ultracool


When they were shooting _The Hunted_ in my fair city I ran into the main Sayoc trainer in the downtown bus mall. I had his card but lost it years ago. We got to talking, and he complained at how _unrealistic_ he had to make some of it. At one point the director wanted a four minute knife fight between two strong, trained adult men where nobody would get seriously hurt. I maintain that the only way to do that is to have a big-*** steel wall between the two of them.



> Please don't be put off by this. Kali really is a wonderful art and you should enjoy learning it. Chances of you ever needing to use it are minimal anyway. Don't believe all you read in the newspapers


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## Sandstorm (Feb 28, 2009)

Sandstorm said:


> Is Kali a good art for self defence against a knife?........Yes, absolutely.


While I stand by this ^ statement....



Sandstorm said:


> Is it worth learning Kali over anything else?...........Yes, absolutely


....I did over-generalise in this ^ one. I was using the 'other' arts as being the more contemporary ones. Those that are much more readily available to learn. Not sure how popular Silat is over there, for example, but I do vouch for it's use of knife work. (after al, the Karambit is my favourite knife to work with).
As for other arts, well, there are of course arts that cover the knife, such as Krav Maga, Systema etc, but not having much personal experience with those I can't really say, I do see them has not being as 'complete' as Kali/FMA's with regards to knife work though. just my opinion from what I've seen.



tellner said:


> Not really.
> 
> Kali is only one of several martial arts that offers effective knife and counter-knife training. The Russians are very good at this sort of thing. So are the Indonesians. The Arabs are no slouches. Neither are the Basque. I've had a bit of FMA over the years. *What I recently realized is that it's very, very easy to use a knife to kill someone. A lot easier than most of the FMA teachers I've seen let on. And defending against one is a lot harder. *.


 
It is, indeed, very very easy to kill. It is indeed very difficult to defend, I agree completely with that. One of the problems I encounter is the complacency some have over knife defence, treating the knife like it's just an extention of the hand. And when you go to seminars or see displays, you are almost always shown over the top execution. I agree with displaying in such a way, but teaching a class is very different. It's all fine to show thirty slices/strikes in one sitting against a single thrust, for example, when just a simple one-two would be more than enough. To actually 'teach' like that would be ridiculous. Knife work needs to maintain realism if that is what the student is training for. If they are training for the flashy moves and display element, that's fine, as long as they are aware it's not going to work like that in a real encounter.



tellner said:


> Some of the teachers really don't know what they're doing because that's how they were taught. A lot of good ones know but don't teach out of a sense of responsibility. It's just too easy, and do you really want to show everyone who walks through the door how easy it is to kill? You don't if you are any sort of decent human being..


 
I've always maintained in other posts the importance of the instructor over the art itself. I am somewhat contradicting myself here, due to the nature of these arts in particular. On saying that, if the Kali teacher is rubbish, you may as well buy one of those online certificate/DVD packages I love so much%-}. Bottom line.... If you're looking for knife training, find a 'good' Kali instructor, or look around for Silat/Krav etc. I got the impression that Kali was the art that OCman44 wanted to learn.




tellner said:


> When they were shooting _The Hunted_ in my fair city I ran into the main Sayoc trainer in the downtown bus mall. I had his card but lost it years ago. We got to talking, and he complained at how _unrealistic_ he had to make some of it. At one point the director wanted a four minute knife fight between two strong, trained adult men where nobody would get seriously hurt. I maintain that the only way to do that is to have a big-*** steel wall between the two of them.


 
I've seen and read some of the 'behind the scenes' stuff, and although the movie isn't great, it does have some of the most realistic knife scenes in it. I agree that the scenes were a bit longer than a real knife fight would be and having experienced blades on a number of occasions, I can certainly vouch for it not being a four minute ordeal at all. More like seconds. Bottom line there is, it's a movie. 

Did you not get to train with the guys when they were in Oregon then, Tellner? We have very very limited FMA access in the UK and working with the Sayok Kali group would be pretty good I should imagine.


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## arnisador (Feb 28, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> I can't remember where I saw/read the statistic, but it was a VERY high percentage (over 75%) of knife attacks involved a heat of the moment type thing



I think that's why the U.K. physicians want knife tips dulled on large kitchen cutting knives--so many are domestic assault or otherwise unplanned attacks.

I was thinking of the street mugger situation--he's likely learned a thing or two from a friend/gangbanger/cellmate, andif that's a thing you don't know how to handle, it's one thing too many.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 28, 2009)

OCman44 said:


> Defending against a knife wielding person while in Empty hands is apart of Kali training though isnt it?
> 
> Knife vs Empty Hands
> Knife vs knife
> ...



The FMA I train and teach covers different situations and weapons including weapons of opportunity. I always try to have a pen on me. You know in case I need to give someone my phone number or get a phone number.   But I also have used an unopened tuna fish can for self-defense as it was in the parking lot on the ground and available for me to pick up.


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## jks9199 (Feb 28, 2009)

arnisador said:


> I think that's why the U.K. physicians want knife tips dulled on large kitchen cutting knives--so many are domestic assault or otherwise unplanned attacks.
> 
> I was thinking of the street mugger situation--he's likely learned a thing or two from a friend/gangbanger/cellmate, andif that's a thing you don't know how to handle, it's one thing too many.


Uh... how is dulling the tip of the knife going to prevent someone from being hurt?  Unless it's REALLY rounded or they put a ball on the end like some of the European practice daggers...  IT'S STILLING GOING TO BE BOTH A CUTTING AND STABBING IMPLEMENT! 

(And what about that whole cutting issue, anyway?  Or are they going to round off the edge too? )


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## MJS (Feb 28, 2009)

To comment on a few recent posts.  We can look at pretty much any art and see weapon defense techniques.  However, and I have heard what I'm about to say from a few other people, so I personally place alot on this.....if its not a weapon based art, it won't be as good as one that is.  In other words, while Kenpo has knife and club techs., they, IMHO, don't even come close to what I see in Arnis.  There are grappling defenses, but again, they don't touch what I see in BJJ.  We're talking about arts that touch on punching, kicking, kata, various SD, etc., vs an art that focuses on a given area.  Sure, Arnis has punch and kick defense, but its a weapon based art, that is the primary focus.  

As far as other arts from other countries....I'm sure Silat has good weapon work, but if there are no Silat schools in my area, I don't have anything to base my opinion on, and I'm not going to rely on youtube to form an opinion of something.  So, if there are numerous FMA schools vs. having no Silat, Systema, etc. schools around, that is what I base my opinion on.  Perhaps if I saw some of the other schools, it may change my mind but until then, I have to go with what I see and am most familiar with.


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## arnisador (Mar 1, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Uh... how is dulling the tip of the knife going to prevent someone from being hurt?  Unless it's REALLY rounded or they put a ball on the end like some of the European practice daggers...  IT'S STILLING GOING TO BE BOTH A CUTTING AND STABBING IMPLEMENT!
> 
> (And what about that whole cutting issue, anyway?  Or are they going to round off the edge too? )



Lots of stories on that here, but for example:

Doctors' kitchen knives ban call
A&E doctors are calling for a ban on long pointed kitchen knives to reduce deaths from stabbing.


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## joeygil (Mar 1, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> In my country if the police catch you with a knife on you , chances are you will be going to jail.


 
But Crocodile Dundee had a huge knife!  I guess he was also a bit of a poacher...


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## mook jong man (Mar 2, 2009)

joeygil said:


> But Crocodile Dundee had a huge knife! I guess he was also a bit of a poacher...


 
he might be ok if he could prove he had it for work purposes.


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## OCman44 (Mar 3, 2009)

In an Empty hand fight where you'd defend yourself from an empty hand attacker,  How effective are the defense techniques in kali?  I know Empty hands taught last when it comes to Kali so Im assuming the Empty hand techniques are similar to that if you were wielding a weapon only with a few minor changes to the techniques themselves.

I was watching some Silat/Suffian videos and the empty hand techniques looked very similar to that of escrima(Im not sure if Suffian silat is different from Kali Silat/Escrima) and when the instructor had his students throwing punches at him it seemed as if empty hand techniques could be very effective in real scenarios in a fist fight.  However Im not sure since Ive yet to experience one.  For those of you who have experienced a fight when empty handed, how did your techniques do vs the attacker?


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## suicide (Mar 3, 2009)

:jediduel:


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## MJS (Mar 3, 2009)

OCman44 said:


> In an Empty hand fight where you'd defend yourself from an empty hand attacker, How effective are the defense techniques in kali? I know Empty hands taught last when it comes to Kali so Im assuming the Empty hand techniques are similar to that if you were wielding a weapon only with a few minor changes to the techniques themselves.
> 
> I was watching some Silat/Suffian videos and the empty hand techniques looked very similar to that of escrima(Im not sure if Suffian silat is different from Kali Silat/Escrima) and when the instructor had his students throwing punches at him it seemed as if empty hand techniques could be very effective in real scenarios in a fist fight. However Im not sure since Ive yet to experience one. For those of you who have experienced a fight when empty handed, how did your techniques do vs the attacker?


 
How effective are the empty hand technqiues?  Very!   The limb destructions and locks are, IMHO, very effective.  Add in the elbows and forearm hits, along with all of the low line shots, and you have a pretty effective tool set.


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## Sandstorm (Mar 3, 2009)

OCman44 said:


> In an Empty hand fight where you'd defend yourself from an empty hand attacker, How effective are the defense techniques in kali? I know Empty hands taught last when it comes to Kali so Im assuming the Empty hand techniques are similar to that if you were wielding a weapon only with a few minor changes to the techniques themselves.
> 
> I was watching some Silat/Suffian videos and the empty hand techniques looked very similar to that of escrima(Im not sure if Suffian silat is different from Kali Silat/Escrima) and when the instructor had his students throwing punches at him it seemed as if empty hand techniques could be very effective in real scenarios in a fist fight. However Im not sure since Ive yet to experience one. For those of you who have experienced a fight when empty handed, how did your techniques do vs the attacker?


 

The beauty of Kali is it's variety and adaptability. As MJS says, you can use pretty much any application and use it effectively. The footwork and transitions through flows and entries is one of the best systems I've practiced. Kali is certainly a fantastic art for unarmed combat, as well as armed. 
My advice to you would be to just go, join a club and get stuck in. As a biginner, there are always questions and your eagerness for answers will be great. As you grow with the art, those questions will become more in quantity and more frequent, but you will learn patience and greater understanding. Trust me, just go, join a class, and have fun!


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## joeygil (Mar 3, 2009)

OCman44 said:


> In an Empty hand fight where you'd defend yourself from an empty hand attacker, How effective are the defense techniques in kali?


 

I'd say it comes down to the school and the instructor (heard that before).  For example, the school my sister went to emphasized tournaments.  They were very good at it, an won lots of championships.  But they didn't emphasize (from what I saw) much empty hand stuff - they even discouraged grabbing the weapon hand, as it's against tournament rules.  So in that case, I don't put a lot of stock in empty hand defense from the way that school was instructing (which is often different from the full body of knowledge of the instructor).

Other places don't do tournaments at all, and emphasize the combative aspect over the sport aspect.

I'm not making a judgement call on which is "right" - they're just different.


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## joeygil (Mar 4, 2009)

Back to the original topic.

I feel like an idiot, as the most obvious counters would probably come from the hubad-lubad drills.  I haven't tried them in the context of a pumping action, but the angle seems about right.

What do you guys think?  Maybe not the full 3 count pattern, but the single outside forearm shield to pass motion (don't know what it's called).


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## arnisador (Mar 4, 2009)

With some footwork, that could work! But the fact that he'll withdraw the arm to strike again is the next issue.


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