# blackbelt amount of time



## ct111 (Sep 26, 2005)

i am currently taking kenpo karate and was wondering after i recieve my blackbelt. if i wanted to take wado ryu,or shorin ryu, karate since i would alrerady have the ability to do most of the kicks,strikes and blocks ,if the amount of time to get a blackbelt in other simaler arts. would be greatly reduced other than learning any new techniques and kata or do you have to go thru all the material all over again? just curious i know alot of people have blackbelts in many differant arts. thanks. ct111


----------



## MJS (Sep 26, 2005)

ct111 said:
			
		

> i am currently taking kenpo karate and was wondering after i recieve my blackbelt. if i wanted to take wado ryu,or shorin ryu, karate since i would alrerady have the ability to do most of the kicks,strikes and blocks ,if the amount of time to get a blackbelt in other simaler arts. would be greatly reduced other than learning any new techniques and kata or do you have to go thru all the material all over again? just curious i know alot of people have blackbelts in many differant arts. thanks. ct111



That would ultimately be up to the head instructor of the school.  While all of the arts you mention have similar kicks/strikes, the application for doing them could be different.  In addition, the kata and SD will also be very different.  

If this is something that you choose to do, make sure that you still take your time, learn and understand the fine points, etc. of everything.  In the long run, you'll be a much better Martial Artist by taking your time, rather than rushing anything.  

Mike


----------



## Shaolinwind (Sep 26, 2005)

ct111 said:
			
		

> i am currently taking kenpo karate and was wondering after i recieve my blackbelt. if i wanted to take wado ryu,or shorin ryu, karate since i would alrerady have the ability to do most of the kicks,strikes and blocks ,if the amount of time to get a blackbelt in other simaler arts. would be greatly reduced other than learning any new techniques and kata or do you have to go thru all the material all over again? just curious i know alot of people have blackbelts in many differant arts. thanks. ct111


 .

Eh, I try never to think that far ahead.. As far as goals I shoot low and always hit, lol.


----------



## arnisador (Sep 26, 2005)

It should go more quickly, unless the school has a policy on required time in grade.


----------



## searcher (Sep 27, 2005)

You will surely move faster(focus here is on the er part).   It is ultimately up to the instructor and you.   I have had BB's in other styles that have progressed quickly and some who have went slow.  I have even had some that were worse off than some new students.   My advice is to focus on what you are doing now and worry about that later.   As long as you are learning and advancing in knowledge you need not look for another style.   For now.


----------



## Grenadier (Sep 28, 2005)

As the others stated, it all depends on the chief instructor, the style's traditions, and your own training.  

Some instructors may allow you to step into their classes wearing a higher ranked belt in an unofficial manner (unofficial until you earn at least that rank by taking their tests).  Others may want you to start out as a white belt.  

The first thing you would need to ask yourself is this: How closely related is your Kempo Karate to the style in which you would start training?  

Just as an example, if a yudansha from another Wado-ryu school came to my dojo, and if the decision were solely up to me (but it's not; that's Hanshi's choice), I'd let him wear his black belt in an official manner.  After all, Wado-ryu is Wado-ryu, when you get down to the core.  While there are some differences between factions and so forth, it's still Wado-ryu.  

If a yudansha from a closely related style came to enroll in my dojo, I would ask that he wear his brown belt, or whatever belt came before Shodan, until he took our Shodan exam.  What I mean by "closely related" is if the styles are very similar, such as comparing Shotokan to Wado-ryu.  If he trained hard, and was able to demonstrate a high degree of proficiency in all of the requirements for Shodan, I wouldn't mind letting him test for Shodan as soon as he were ready.  This could even be in as little as a half year's of time, depending on how diligently he worked, and how well he could perform.  The fundamentals are still similar enough that the crossover wouldn't be a problem.  

If a black belt holder from a different style (such as a Tae Kwon Do yudanja coming over to my Wado-ryu school) came to my dojo, then I would ask that he start at white belt, with the understanding that because of his background, he would most likely be testing at a faster rate, and that skipping ranks wouldn't be out of the question.  If the guy is a good martial artist, he'll pick up things quickly, and make the proper adjustments.  

Of course, there could possibly (although extremely remote) be an exception to the rule; I wouldn't, for example, ask Kanazawa shihan to wear a kyu-level belt in my dojo...


----------



## terryl965 (Sep 28, 2005)

Every instructor and school has there own views on this subject, mine is simple you can wear your BB in class but you are not considered a BB in my art until you finish all the qualification.

Terry Lee Stoker


----------



## MisterMike (Sep 28, 2005)

First and foremost, the belt should be there to hold one's dogi together. Once a student realizes that's what it's for, the color shouldn't matter. If one is still standing at the lower end of class, does one really need to wear the black belt?A little humility goes a long way.


----------



## jkdhit (Sep 28, 2005)

a lot of schools whether good schools or mcdojo's normally require 3 years. but keep in mind that when martial arts originated, there were no belts so don't be in a rush


----------



## twayman (Oct 27, 2005)

IMHO This should not even enter into the picture.  Only train for knowledge and skill not rank.  If you train for 20 years and can defend yourself who cares what color belt is.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Oct 27, 2005)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> As the others stated, it all depends on the chief instructor, the style's traditions, and your own training.
> 
> Some instructors may allow you to step into their classes wearing a higher ranked belt in an unofficial manner (unofficial until you earn at least that rank by taking their tests). Others may want you to start out as a white belt.
> 
> Just as an example, if a yudansha from another Wado-ryu school came to my dojo, and if the decision were solely up to me (but it's not; that's Hanshi's choice), I'd let him wear his black belt in an official manner. After all, Wado-ryu is Wado-ryu, when you get down to the core. While there are some differences between factions and so forth, it's still Wado-ryu.


 
Yes yes, very reasonable and I think my teacher does that too... however, he does not take ranks at face value. Once, a guy from another Wado dojo, whose teacher my teacher knows (though not very close), came to our Dojo, wanting to practice. He also want to wear his brown belt (he said he is 1st Kyu). Sensei said, sure, just demonstrate the Katas you know. Turns out he doesn't know some Kata required for brown belt, such as Kushanku and Seishan. Sensei said nothing more to the guy, just "well we have lots of training to do". He said nothing about whether this guy is allowed to wear brown or not. But I think the guy got the hint, because the next week he wear white belt to our class 

Before anybody stomps me, I admit, even after 5 years of training I am not yet a black belt, I am not even 2nd Kyu.  So, I think, for stupid people like me, 6-8 years are reasonable time to get black belt in the four major Karate styles (Wado, Shito, Goju, Shotokan).


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Oct 27, 2005)

ct111 said:
			
		

> i am currently taking kenpo karate and was wondering after i recieve my blackbelt. if i wanted to take wado ryu,or shorin ryu, karate since i would alrerady have the ability to do most of the kicks,strikes and blocks ,if the amount of time to get a blackbelt in other simaler arts. would be greatly reduced other than learning any new techniques and kata or do you have to go thru all the material all over again? just curious i know alot of people have blackbelts in many differant arts. thanks. ct111


 
Well... if talking about Wado-ryu, then the challenge is not learning the punches and kicks and blocks, they are pretty much similar from one Karate style to another. The real challenge to learn wado-ryu is to fit the kicks punches and block to the Wado-ryu mindset, to make your kick, punch and block conform to Wado-preferences. Wado has specific concepts that makes it Wado, such as taisabaki, san mi ittai, noru-nagasu-inasu, etc. Plus it has huge infusion of techniques and tactics from Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu. 

On the other hand, there is a lady from Canada who was 5th Dan Shotokan, who later joined wado, and after several years of training, was able to learn correct Wado-skills, and now she is 6th Dan Wado, the highest ranking woman outside Japan. Her name is madame Norma Foster.

So, transition from other Karate style to wado is possible, so, do not lose hope  

I was in Goju for 3 years before switch to Wado, and after 5 years of training I still unable to fully acclimatize myself to the Wado-style, but that's just me (and I guarantee you, I am a certified stupid-person  )


----------



## twayman (Oct 27, 2005)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Before anybody stomps me, I admit, even after 5 years of training I am not yet a black belt, I am not even 2nd Kyu.  So, I think, for stupid people like me, 6-8 years are reasonable time to get black belt in the four major Karate styles (Wado, Shito, Goju, Shotokan).


 
Don't think of yourself as stupid... Always have a positive self image.  Ranking issues are always between the instructor and student, period.  Knowing the material is all that matters.  If you have been training for 5 years and only a 3-kyu vs. someone that trained 2 years and holds a shodan and you can kick his but, then what is his black belt and his knowledge worth???   - Just food for thought.:idunno:


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Oct 27, 2005)

twayman said:
			
		

> Don't think of yourself as stupid... Always have a positive self image. Ranking issues are always between the instructor and student, period. Knowing the material is all that matters. If you have been training for 5 years and only a 3-kyu vs. someone that trained 2 years and holds a shodan and you can kick his but, then what is his black belt and his knowledge worth??? - Just food for thought.:idunno:


 
Thank you for the words of encouragement!   I think the correct word should be either "lazy" or "busy" 

And I think it is a problem for us all who does not life in Okinawa and does nothing but farming and training. When I was in the University, I can train once or twice a week, 4 hours per sessions. Now I am working at the state telephone company in Indonesia, and I consider myself lucky if I can train twice a month!


----------



## arnisador (Oct 27, 2005)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> I was in Goju for 3 years before switch to Wado, and after 5 years of training I still unable to fully acclimatize myself to the Wado-style, but that's just me


 
I'd like to hear more about this! Would you start a thread on the Wado-ryu approach to fighting and how it differs from that of, say, Goju (which I studied for a while)?


----------



## twayman (Oct 27, 2005)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> ...I consider myself lucky if I can train twice a month!


 
Ouch... that bites.  Well maybe things will pick up for you!artyon:


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Oct 29, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I'd like to hear more about this! Would you start a thread on the Wado-ryu approach to fighting and how it differs from that of, say, Goju (which I studied for a while)?


 
Uh oh, yessir, will try to do. I am just a lowly kyu ranked student though, so my thread will likely be very basic!


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Oct 29, 2005)

twayman said:
			
		

> Ouch... that bites. Well maybe things will pick up for you!artyon:


 
Thank you for the kind wishes twayman!


----------



## eyebeams (Oct 29, 2005)

If I ruled the world all black belts would take 4 years of study on average to achieve (the same as an undergraduate degree), 3 dan ranks for technical purposes and 2 for honourary awards and coaching certification standards entirely different from the belt structure.  Furthermore, ever related school in an art would have a sense of what basics were common and provide separate certifications for them, so that once you had them, you didn't have to relearn them -- just keep them fresh. This would strip as much as two years off gaining rank in a related art, but no more.  If there's one thing I can't stand, it's the false modesty about belts which has, if anything, made belt ranking simultaneously less valuable and more materialistic. A contemporary black belt could mean anything these days instead of just fundamental competency and bears little relationship with competition ability or coaching skills. I can go to a boxing gym and see that the coach has a record in X organization and has Y coaching certs from the government, but the black belt tells me nothing that's nearly as well-defined.


----------



## cali_tkdbruin (Oct 30, 2005)

I'm beginning some cross training in BJJ this week, and I'm going in fresh. I want to learn everything they have to offer, and the fact that I have a BB in my current beloved art will not matter. I'll just act like a newby, rookie, beginner there, and be a sponge, and try to absorb as much as I can. To me, that's as it should be, rank will come...:asian:


----------



## arnisador (Oct 30, 2005)

Good luck with the BJJ! It's a great add-on to just about anything.


----------



## Antonioncsu02 (Nov 12, 2005)

The best thing to do whenever you step into a new style is to do so with humility.  You are stepping into their classroom, learning a new subject.  If the teacher deems it worthy to promote you quicker, the sensei will.  Eventually your prior martial arts skill will come forth.

I've done this twice.  Once I tried a kung fu after two years of karate.  I did extremely well on testing, but was only promoted one rank at a time.  The second time I easily slid in the style and the Grand Master gave me a San Kyu belt.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Nov 12, 2005)

I must agree with Antonioncsu02 on his points.  Your new instructor will be able to tell if your old experience is helping you learn or if it is holding you back.  
You must realize that you  are in a new area of study and be willing to start at the bottom with no recognition of prior training.
 that prior teaining may help you advance faster but then again it may not if the two systems are very different


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 13, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> I must agree with Antonioncsu02 on his points. Your new instructor will be able to tell if your old experience is helping you learn or if it is holding you back.
> You must realize that you are in a new area of study and be willing to start at the bottom with no recognition of prior training.
> that prior teaining may help you advance faster but then again it may not if the two systems are very different


 
Come to think about it.. I may have some difficulties in my new style because I must adapt my way of movement to the new style. The old Karate memory is blocking the new Karate memory  

If I am training in something very different such as BJJ maybe the old karate memory will not block the new BJJ memory?  Is this possible? Considering that Karate and BJJ are so very different?

Anybody who cross-trained in BJJ, please answer?


----------



## arnisador (Nov 13, 2005)

I think so. Training in both Isshin-ryu and Shotokan would goof you up, most likely, but BJJ (or Judo) is just too different. I don't think it would hurt your otehr tarining--it certainly doesn't bother my arnis or JKD.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Nov 13, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> If I ruled the world all black belts would take 4 years of study on average to achieve (the same as an undergraduate degree), 3 dan ranks for technical purposes and 2 for honourary awards and coaching certification standards entirely different from the belt structure. Furthermore, ever related school in an art would have a sense of what basics were common and provide separate certifications for them, so that once you had them, you didn't have to relearn them -- just keep them fresh. This would strip as much as two years off gaining rank in a related art, but no more. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's the false modesty about belts which has, if anything, made belt ranking simultaneously less valuable and more materialistic. A contemporary black belt could mean anything these days instead of just fundamental competency and bears little relationship with competition ability or coaching skills. I can go to a boxing gym and see that the coach has a record in X organization and has Y coaching certs from the government, but the black belt tells me nothing that's nearly as well-defined.


 
That would be great as the Western image of the black belt is that of a martial arts expert ready to take on all comers. However, dan ranks are frequently awarded in both Japan and Korea in a year or less. I think the greatest solution would be to educate the public on the fact that rank is relative from system to system and that a first degree black belt is considered an intermediate student - not an expert.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 15, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I think so. Training in both Isshin-ryu and Shotokan would goof you up, most likely, but BJJ (or Judo) is just too different. I don't think it would hurt your otehr tarining--it certainly doesn't bother my arnis or JKD.


 
Thank you for the kind advice!


----------



## Shogun (Nov 18, 2005)

> As far as goals I shoot low and always hit, lol.


Haha. you'd be a good wrestler.


----------



## takezo (Nov 27, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> If I ruled the world all black belts would take 4 years of study on average to achieve (the same as an undergraduate degree), 3 dan ranks for technical purposes and 2 for honourary awards and coaching certification standards entirely different from the belt structure...


 
In principle I would agree with the requirements as outlined.  In my opinion the pursuit of profit has ruined the martial arts in the United States.
When a martial art's goal becomes economic survival, combat survival becomes a secondary issue at best.


----------



## arnisador (Nov 27, 2005)

takezo said:
			
		

> In my opinion the pursuit of profit has ruined the martial arts in the United States.
> When a martial art's goal becomes economic survival, combat survival becomes a secondary issue at best.



But on the other hand, the profit motive has spread the arts much further than they'd have spread otherwise. It's a mixed bag.


----------



## brothershaw (Nov 27, 2005)

I am sure you always had people just teaching for money and pretty poor at it.
I have also oftem heard that many of the early m.a. instructors in this country and also other styles werent that good in the sense the returning american soldiers who helped get the ball rolling here didnt study long enough to bring the full essence. ALso in general you had people who never learned complete systems coming over and claiming much more than they knew.
I guess its really up to the individual to verify their own skills to their satisfaction and also verify thier instuctors skills. That means tournaments and also visiting other schools, talking to other martial artists , and reading books to see if what you are learning holds water, or if your teacher is full of it.


----------



## JPH (Nov 28, 2005)

In the final analysis it is up to the instructor to provide a fair balance between finance and the quality of instruction that is provided, and to continue to keep it interesting. We all know that operating a dojo, or other martial arts facility is not free of expenses. If the student feels that he or she is receiving valuable instruction for the price being paid, the student will continue to be a member of the school. If not, the students leave and the school will close.

I have visited martial arts schools in Japan in the past and they all, too, charged fees for their instruction. The disparity in quality of schools is not unique to our country alone. Friends of mine who came here from Japan and Okinawa cited similar problems with dojos in their countries.

The best thing for a student to do is to attend a school where he is comfortable with what is being taught, and to stay as long as the quality of instruction continues. Different schools have different requirements, and each individual is different in their ability to learn. With practice comes proficiency, and with proficiency comes advancement.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 28, 2005)

JPH said:
			
		

> In the final analysis it is up to the instructor to provide a fair balance between finance and the quality of instruction that is provided, and to continue to keep it interesting. We all know that operating a dojo, or other martial arts facility is not free of expenses. If the student feels that he or she is receiving valuable instruction for the price being paid, the student will continue to be a member of the school. If not, the students leave and the school will close.
> 
> I have visited martial arts schools in Japan in the past and they all, too, charged fees for their instruction. The disparity in quality of schools is not unique to our country alone. Friends of mine who came here from Japan and Okinawa cited similar problems with dojos in their countries.
> 
> The best thing for a student to do is to attend a school where he is comfortable with what is being taught, and to stay as long as the quality of instruction continues. Different schools have different requirements, and each individual is different in their ability to learn. With practice comes proficiency, and with proficiency comes advancement.


 
Yes you are very right! Charging fees makes sense if the dojo is on a rented building with good equipments. However some dojo, including mine, is in a university, so we dont pay rent and in some cases the university gave us the tatami. So there are no operating costs at all, thus negating the needs for high monthly fees.

My sensei teach for free in the universities, he just collect money from the students (less than $7!) after each lessons so that he could have dinner & pay cab fare to go home. Come to think about it, he teach about 15 students, plus and minus, per sessions, so the actual money donated by each student is a trifling amount!

However when he gave private lessons on at his home to rich foreigners he got paid like $10 per person per sessions.

And sensei sometimes get paid as high as $200 per sessions when he does a 2-days seminar in another city (that money includes tickets and accomodations). Off course this is very rare, maybe once every 3 years or so.


----------



## bobster_ice (Dec 5, 2005)

I started karate when i was four, im fourteen now, it has taken me ten years to get to black belt. (1st dan)

How long have you been doing karate for?


----------



## BlueDragon1981 (Dec 5, 2005)

It used to be in my dojo that about 1% of the people enrolled recieved their black belt...it has ranged from 5 years to 25 years for people to get their black belt. This is not the case now but it is still a very low percentage.

However I tend to find if you have a black belt in one style you tend to pick up the other styles with more ease. This is from talking to others with multiple black belts.

My personal opinion is that we have an over abundance of people with black belts...it should represent more than just technique but moral character too. I've seen a good number of Jr Black belts that should in no way have a black belt. (actually i don't think their should be a blackbelt under the age of 15, nothing against you bobster_ice)


----------



## Grenadier (Dec 6, 2005)

BlueDragon1981 said:
			
		

> It used to be in my dojo that about 1% of the people enrolled recieved their black belt


 
That's actually not unusual at all.  Most schools have a statistic, that one only one out of every 50-150 students (depending on the school) will get his shodan rank.  The rest will eventually leave before getting it for one reason or another.  

Out of the ones that do make it to shodan, though, it's also a varied response, as to who can make it from shodan to nidan.  In some systems, it's closer to one out of 20, others closer to one out of 50.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Dec 6, 2005)

Sensei has been teaching since 1996 and not one of his students, not even myself, has become a blackbelt.

When we get into the higher Kyu levels, we become lazy


----------



## terryl965 (Dec 6, 2005)

bobster_ice said:
			
		

> I started karate when i was four, im fourteen now, it has taken me ten years to get to black belt. (1st dan)
> 
> How long have you been doing karate for?


Bobster are youa BB in karate or TKD? because if your TKD WTF you are a Poom until the age of 15 and then you have to submit paperwork to transfer to Dan status.
Terry


----------



## bobster_ice (Dec 8, 2005)

Karate


----------



## Danjo (Jan 6, 2006)

bobster_ice said:
			
		

> Karate


 
What style? What organization? Some organizations say no 1st dan till 16 and some till 18. Though some give out Jr. BB rankings.


----------



## Danjo (Jan 6, 2006)

I think that you should go to an instructor and talk with him/her. Tell him of your prior experience. Be ready to demonstrate your techniques and kata, and accept the instructor's judgement as to where you should start. I have a 3rd kyu in Shotokan from many years ago. I still practice my kata at least three times per week (1-5 Heian and Tekki Shodan). I never want to lose what I learned. I also have a 3rd "degree" (3rd kyu) in Shaolin Kempo Karate,and I keep up practice in that too. The kicks, blocks, punches and stances are very close to each other. If an instructor looks at your skills and says, "You're a white belt", then there may be a problem. (either with the instructor, or your previous training). If you look around at the other white belts and you are clearly more skilled than they are, perhaps you should look elsewhere for an instructor that can more fairly assess your ability.


----------



## Grenadier (Jan 11, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> If an instructor looks at your skills and says, "You're a white belt", then there may be a problem. (either with the instructor, or your previous training).


 
True, but this is somewhat dependent on a number of factors.  

Is the previous experience in other martial arts similar to what is being taught at the current school?  How closely related are the styles in question?  If they're pretty close, then I'd agree, that there might not be much to be gained by having someone start out as a white belt.  

On the flip side of the coin starting out at white belt, regardless of experience may not be the wrong thing, especially since those with previous experience (regardless of the martial art) will tend to progress a lot faster than their fellow classmates with no previous experience.  In the end, they'll attain their shodan in a rather fast timespan, often times similar to the guy who started out at a higher kyu rank.  

Regardless of my statements above, though, I strongly agree with you, that it's important to speak with the instructor in an honest and open manner (from both parties).


----------



## Danjo (Jan 11, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> On the flip side of the coin starting out at white belt, regardless of experience may not be the wrong thing, especially since those with previous experience (regardless of the martial art) will tend to progress a lot faster than their fellow classmates with no previous experience. In the end, they'll attain their shodan in a rather fast timespan, often times similar to the guy who started out at a higher kyu rank.


 
If the school allows testing frequently, that's probably true. If they only test twice per year, then that could be a problem. If you're coming from the same art, and can demonstrate this in some fashion, then the instructor should let you start at that rank and , if you're rusty, not test you for the next one until they feel that you're ready. If it's a different art, then starting at the beginning, or near the beginning, may be the correct thing to do.


----------

