# Source for training staff wasters



## lklawson (Sep 14, 2020)

I'll be teaching a series of classes on the historic use of staves and "quarterstaff" in western culture soon.  I'm looking for a source of inexpensive staves.  These will get beaten about, smashed into each other, and generally chewed up.  

I want something like 1.25" - 1.5" rattan or bamboo in 8' lengths.  Something with enough flex that students could accidentally bump each other through training armor and not break bones, but heavy and long enough that the won't learn the techniques wrong because their staves are too light.

I have found (and bought) a 25 count bundle of 1" by 8' bamboo staves for about $82-ish. But I think that 1" is probably going to be too whippy.  

The next closest I've found was some 8' bamboo poles for $13 each.  So I go from ~3@ for 1" dia. poles to $13@?  

And rattan & waxwood are more.  

Do you have a good source at decent prices?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 14, 2020)

Don’t have any info on stave sources, but I was wondering - will you be teaching during the week or on the weekend? If it’s the weekend I might be able to come up to Dayton for your classes.


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## lklawson (Sep 14, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Don’t have any info on stave sources, but I was wondering - will you be teaching during the week or on the weekend? If it’s the weekend I might be able to come up to Dayton for your classes.


I normally run it on Tuesday evenings.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## geezer (Sep 14, 2020)

lklawson said:


> I'll be teaching a series of classes on the historic use of staves and "quarterstaff" in western culture soon.  I'm looking for a source of inexpensive staves.  These will get beaten about, smashed into each other, and generally chewed up.
> 
> I want something like 1.25" - 1.5" rattan or bamboo in 8' lengths.  Something with enough flex that students could accidentally bump each other through training armor and not break bones, but heavy and long enough that the won't learn the techniques wrong because their staves are too light.
> 
> ...




Best deals I've had have been at Frank's Cane. Good tough rattan staffs with skin still on. I like them heavy, say 1 5/8 in. Frank's Cane and Rush Supply


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 14, 2020)

lklawson said:


> I normally run it on Tuesday evenings.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Oh well. Let me know if you ever do any training or teaching on the weekend.


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## lklawson (Sep 14, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Oh well. Let me know if you ever do any training or teaching on the weekend.


We could probably make a special session for you at some point.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## EdwardA (Sep 14, 2020)

lklawson said:


> I'll be teaching a series of classes on the historic use of staves and "quarterstaff" in western culture soon.  I'm looking for a source of inexpensive staves.  These will get beaten about, smashed into each other, and generally chewed up.
> 
> I want something like 1.25" - 1.5" rattan or bamboo in 8' lengths.  Something with enough flex that students could accidentally bump each other through training armor and not break bones, but heavy and long enough that the won't learn the techniques wrong because their staves are too light.
> 
> ...



I would consider .75" or 1", "schedule 40" pvc for starting.  You can always put foam pipe insulation at the ends.  They work well... just a bit flexible too.


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## lklawson (Sep 15, 2020)

EdwardA said:


> I would consider .75" or 1", "schedule 40" pvc for starting.  You can always put foam pipe insulation at the ends.  They work well... just a bit flexible too.


Something to think about.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 15, 2020)

@lklawson This might be hijacking the thread a bit, but saw this online event and it occurred to me as something you might be interested in. Posting it here just in case others are as well. Sadly, I'll be busy at the time, so I won't be there. Hopefully the link works.

19th Century Saber


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 15, 2020)

lklawson said:


> I'll be teaching a series of classes on the historic use of staves and "quarterstaff" in western culture soon.  I'm looking for a source of inexpensive staves.  These will get beaten about, smashed into each other, and generally chewed up.
> 
> I want something like 1.25" - 1.5" rattan or bamboo in 8' lengths.  Something with enough flex that students could accidentally bump each other through training armor and not break bones, but heavy and long enough that the won't learn the techniques wrong because their staves are too light.
> 
> ...



I might have a good stave guy for you, but let me ask him first if he still has access to his own sources.

Southern Praying Mantis master in Florida, in case you know who I mean (because there aren't that many of those left).


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## lklawson (Sep 15, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> @lklawson This might be hijacking the thread a bit, but saw this online event and it occurred to me as something you might be interested in. Posting it here just in case others are as well. Sadly, I'll be busy at the time, so I won't be there. Hopefully the link works.
> 
> 19th Century Saber


 cool. Looks interesting.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)


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## lklawson (Sep 15, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> I might have a good stave guy for you, but let me ask him first if he still has access to his own sources.
> 
> Southern Praying Mantis master in Florida, in case you know who I mean (because there aren't that many of those left).


Thanks. The 8-ft bamboo poles came in today. They actually range from 1-in diameter poles to about just a little less than 2-in diameter. The 1 in. poles are light enough to do some sparring and not as whippy as I was afraid. I think they will do in a pinch if they hold up.

That said better alternatives are always a good idea.  

Peace favor your sword (mobile)


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 15, 2020)

lklawson said:


> I'll be teaching a series of classes on the historic use of staves and "quarterstaff" in western culture soon.  I'm looking for a source of inexpensive staves.  These will get beaten about, smashed into each other, and generally chewed up.
> 
> I want something like 1.25" - 1.5" rattan or bamboo in 8' lengths.  Something with enough flex that students could accidentally bump each other through training armor and not break bones, but heavy and long enough that the won't learn the techniques wrong because their staves are too light.
> 
> ...


Rattan doesn't take a good beating.  Waxwood takes a good beating but hurts.


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## Danny T (Sep 15, 2020)

lklawson said:


> I'll be teaching a series of classes on the historic use of staves and "quarterstaff" in western culture soon.  I'm looking for a source of inexpensive staves.  These will get beaten about, smashed into each other, and generally chewed up.
> 
> I want something like 1.25" - 1.5" rattan or bamboo in 8' lengths.  Something with enough flex that students could accidentally bump each other through training armor and not break bones, but heavy and long enough that the won't learn the techniques wrong because their staves are too light.
> 
> ...


Frank's Cane and Rush


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## lklawson (Sep 16, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Rattan doesn't take a good beating.  Waxwood takes a good beating but hurts.


Really?  My experience with rattan is that it is pretty durable and lasts comparatively well.  I also like the way it fails.  When it eventually fails, it shreds into twine-like fibers instead of shattering or exploding into wood shrapnel.  It's what I prefer for singlstick work.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 16, 2020)

lklawson said:


> When it eventually fails, it shreds into twine-like fibers instead of shattering or exploding into wood shrapnel.


This shredding is what I'm referring to.   I've never seen wax wood shatter before. In comparison to wax wood vs rattan, the wax wood is going to be more durable of the two.
I've never had a wax wood staff break or crack on me.  As long as I keep my staff in good environments, then it'll last. 

I've seen Japanese bo staffs shatter, but they aren't made of wax wood.  They aren't made of flexible wood, so there's only so there won't be any give upon impact.  If you ask which one would I rather get hit with then it's going to be the rattan staff.  My first bo staff,  I think is 27 years old.  I have some thinner sized staffs that are going to last just as long so long as they aren't flawed on the inside.     

I still train with wax wood I guess I like the pain? or just the comfort that it's not going to splinter in my hand or snap in half.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 16, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This shredding is what I'm referring to.   I've never seen wax wood shatter before. In comparison to wax wood vs rattan, the wax wood is going to be more durable of the two.
> I've never had a wax wood staff break or crack on me.  As long as I keep my staff in good environments, then it'll last.
> 
> I've seen Japanese bo staffs shatter, but they aren't made of wax wood.  They aren't made of flexible wood, so there's only so there won't be any give upon impact.  If you ask which one would I rather get hit with then it's going to be the rattan staff.  My first bo staff,  I think is 27 years old.  I have some thinner sized staffs that are going to last just as long so long as they aren't flawed on the inside.
> ...


I'm a fan of shredding. Never worked with waxed wood, but with rattan, I know that if it breaks I'm not getting a splinter in my eye (or half a stick in my neck). Other types of wood have not given that confidence. Plus I can still use it for a while after it starts shredding.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 17, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm a fan of shredding. Never worked with waxed wood, but with rattan, I know that if it breaks I'm not getting a splinter in my eye (or half a stick in my neck). Other types of wood have not given that confidence. Plus I can still use it for a while after it starts shredding.


I would have thought the shredding would cause problems with the handling of the staff,


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## lklawson (Sep 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This shredding is what I'm referring to.   I've never seen wax wood shatter before. In comparison to wax wood vs rattan, the wax wood is going to be more durable of the two.
> I've never had a wax wood staff break or crack on me.  As long as I keep my staff in good environments, then it'll last.
> 
> I've seen Japanese bo staffs shatter, but they aren't made of wax wood.  They aren't made of flexible wood, so there's only so there won't be any give upon impact.  If you ask which one would I rather get hit with then it's going to be the rattan staff.  My first bo staff,  I think is 27 years old.  I have some thinner sized staffs that are going to last just as long so long as they aren't flawed on the inside.
> ...


I'm not denying that waxwood is durable.  I'm saying that 1) rattan is also durable and 2) waxwood does not meet the goals which I stipulated right off the bat.

I wrote "Something with enough flex that students could accidentally bump each other through training armor and not break bones, but heavy and long enough that the won't learn the techniques wrong because their staves are too light."  I like waxwood well enough; heck I have a 5' waxwood staff.  Waxwood is too dense and too heavy.  Trying to pull a strike would lead to Repetitive Stress Injuries and strikes which didn't get pulled/pulled enough would lead to real injuries.  Waxwood just is not right for this application.

In traditional western incarnations, this sort of staff practice would have used rattan, malacca (which is still a kind of rattan), Ash, hawthorn, and other "flexible" hardwoods, usually (as I understand it) from the sapwood not the heart wood, or from appropriate length saplings so that there's more flex.

Waxwood is great for a lot of applications.  Just not mine.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Sep 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would have thought the shredding would cause problems with the handling of the staff,


When it shreds is when it's broken and you throw it away and get a new stick.  Or cut it down to shorter stick.

One big advantage of rattan is that when it fails, it fails "safely."  Think of it sort of like "crumple zones" in modern cars.  It's gonna break eventually but you want it to break in such a way that does not further endanger the user.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 17, 2020)

lklawson said:


> We could probably make a special session for you at some point.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Definitely let me know if you're ever available on the weekend.

I'm taking a vacation from grappling until the pandemic is under control, but I've taken up archery and have returned to practicing stick fighting. Staff work would be an ideal addition.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This shredding is what I'm referring to.   I've never seen wax wood shatter before. In comparison to wax wood vs rattan, the wax wood is going to be more durable of the two.
> I've never had a wax wood staff break or crack on me.  As long as I keep my staff in good environments, then it'll last.
> 
> I've seen Japanese bo staffs shatter, but they aren't made of wax wood.  They aren't made of flexible wood, so there's only so there won't be any give upon impact.  If you ask which one would I rather get hit with then it's going to be the rattan staff.  My first bo staff,  I think is 27 years old.  I have some thinner sized staffs that are going to last just as long so long as they aren't flawed on the inside.
> ...


I’ve never had a waxwood staff break, but I’ve seen it happen and when it did, pieces flew off.  

We used rattan for repetitive contact training, and as the rattan began to break over time, it would shred in the small contact zone.  They remain useful for repetitive striking drills for a long time, nothing flies apart, and as long as you strike the same spot and limit the shredding to that area, and aren’t shifting your hands all over the staff, there is no danger to your hands.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 17, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm a fan of shredding. Never worked with *waxed* *wood*, but with rattan, I know that if it breaks I'm not getting a splinter in my eye (or half a stick in my neck). Other types of wood have not given that confidence. Plus I can still use it for a while after it starts shredding.


I’m not sure if this was a typo or auto-correct error, but it is not waxed wood.  Rather, it is waxwood, a type of wood from China, used a lot in spears and staves and can be quite flexible and whippy if thin enough.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would have thought the shredding would cause problems with the handling of the staff,


I always had a separate rattan staff for use in contact drills which were primarily single-end striking.  So all the damage was contained to a single area.  I always kept a different staff for other handling drills and for forms.

And when it shreds it is not in sharp blade-like pieces, but rather is like separating fibers.  Wouldn’t want to grip it on that spot, but not otherwise terribly hazardous.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 17, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m not sure if this was a typo or auto-correct error, but it is not waxed wood.  Rather, it is waxwood, a type of wood from China, used a lot in spears and staves and can be quite flexible and whippy if thin enough.


Ah. Thought it was literally a coating of wax that makes wood more durable. I have used a waxwood staff, but not enough to comment on durability, strength, flexibility, or anything else for that matter.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 17, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Ah. Thought it was literally a coating of wax that makes wood more durable. I have used a waxwood staff, but not enough to comment on durability, strength, flexibility, or anything else for that matter.


I can certainly understand the misunderstanding.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 17, 2020)

Here is a photo of the end of my rattan, showing the gradual shredding.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would have thought the shredding would cause problems with the handling of the staff,



So like Kirk said, you can just throw it away once it starts shredding. I'm cheap and grow attached to my weapons, so I don't always. I've used both rattan sticks and staffs, and had both peel (sticks more often because I use them more, and the strikes get more concentrated. But I've got sticks (with no skin) currently peeling that I still like to train with-currently actually grab onto the peeling part as grip if my hand starts getting sweaty.

Attached should be a short clip of the peeling sticks. You can see that the stick is only shredding in the areas with contact, the rest of it is still fine. And not sure how well it comes across in the video, but the shredding is almost 'stringy', not sharp, so there's very little (possibly no) actual danger with it.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 17, 2020)

lklawson said:


> I'm not denying that waxwood is durable. I'm saying that 1) rattan is also durable and 2) waxwood does not meet the goals which I stipulated right off the bat.
> 
> I wrote "Something with enough flex that students could accidentally bump each other through training armor and not break bones, but heavy and long enough that the won't learn the techniques wrong because their staves are too light." I like waxwood well enough; heck I have a 5' waxwood staff. Waxwood is too dense and too heavy. Trying to pull a strike would lead to Repetitive Stress Injuries and strikes which didn't get pulled/pulled enough would lead to real injuries. Waxwood just is not right for this application.


I understood this.  That's why I stated I rather get hit with Rattan.  I wasn't disagreeing with your choice.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 17, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Here is a photo of the end of my rattan, showing the gradual shredding.


Thanks for the photo.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 17, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> shifting your hands all over the staff, there is no danger to your hands.


 This is the one thing I do a lot of when I train with a staff, but I can see how using a stick wouldn't have that complication.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the one thing I do a lot of when I train with a staff, but I can see how using a stick wouldn't have that complication.


yeah, I do a whole series of fundamental striking and shifting and moving with the staff, in addition to my forms.  I spend the majority of my time, by a long shot, on those fundamentals.  They involve a whole lot of shifting and changing the grip.  But I use a different staff for that work.  I keep one sacrificial rattan staff for the contact staff-on-staff training, so my good staff doesn't get all beat up.  I make my own hickory staffs, it takes a few hours of labor and whatnot so I don't want to just beat them up.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This shredding is what I'm referring to.   I've never seen wax wood shatter before. In comparison to wax wood vs rattan, the wax wood is going to be more durable of the two.
> I've never had a wax wood staff break or crack on me.  As long as I keep my staff in good environments, then it'll last.
> 
> I've seen Japanese bo staffs shatter, but they aren't made of wax wood.  They aren't made of flexible wood, so there's only so there won't be any give upon impact.  If you ask which one would I rather get hit with then it's going to be the rattan staff.  My first bo staff,  I think is 27 years old.  I have some thinner sized staffs that are going to last just as long so long as they aren't flawed on the inside.
> ...


How often do you do contact/staff-on-staff sparring? I can't imagine having a staff, of any material, last that long and still be usable.


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## lklawson (Sep 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I understood this.  That's why I stated I rather get hit with Rattan.  I wasn't disagreeing with your choice.


Sorry.  I must have misunderstood somewhere.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 17, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> How often do you do contact/staff-on-staff sparring? I can't imagine having a staff, of any material, last that long and still be usable.


When I was training with a school  I would get about 1 - 2 months total within a year.


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