# Sanchin Ryu



## white belt

Hello Esteemed Karateka,

I'm a TKD Instructor / school owner in the Midwest.  Recently I was made aware of a style of Karate being sold here in town called "Sanchin Ryu".  The sylabus apparently is sold as "non-competitive" w/o free sparring.  I have some schooling on Okinawan Karate history but, I thought Sanchin was the name of a rather important foundational kata, not an actual Ryu or style from Okinawa.  The school selling this is known as a belt factory that got its inertia starting with TKD.  The owner has everything but drive up windows at his schools.  Is this another hot dog for the rubes or something legit that I am uninformed about.  Smells fishy.

Thanks,
white belt


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## arnisador

Sounds like a recently created system to me.


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## A.R.K.

Sanchin is indeed a foundational Kata in Okinawan karate.  Kanbun Uechi is credited with bringing this Kata from China's Fukein providence.  He once stated 'to know Sanchin is to know karate'.  Sanchin is also used I believe in other Okinawan disciplines although a bit different in form.

I have never heard of Sanchin Ryu and your initial intuition may be very accurate.

Try the direct route...ask the school owner and see what he says.

:asian:


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## angrywhitepajamas

Is this the same sanchin ryu that was being toted from louisiana missouri and alabama???  If it is , my teachers hgave already checked it out.  They did not think it was traditional enough or legit.  They only mentioned the style in passing though.


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## white belt

Thanks.  Interesting observations.  I'm suspecting that the multi-state commerce of Sanchin Ryu is due to it being marketed by one of the larger umbrella trade organizations.  Going to the source may cause me some negative publicity locally.  I am already having to convince a certain percentage of initial public contact that my agenda / criteria are not the same as some of the other schools who lean toward Tae Boism.  I think it's great that people are getting some exercise, but I am one of those who thinks a black belt should not be given for aerobics.  Using the name of a well known kata as a name for a new system smacks of deceitful marketing in my book.  If I am wrong, time will tell and I will graciously take my lumps.  Not holding my breath, though.

white belt


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## punisher73

Hello all,


I actually came across this post/forum by accident, so this is my first post here.  I have been a student of Sanchin-Ryu now for 10 yrs so I can answer (hopefully) any honest questions you have, and also try to address those already asked.  A little about myself, I have been in LE/Corrections for 7 yrs now, and have been certified in PPCT and PPCT spontaneous knife defense. Also have some training in Aikido/Judo/BJJ. I have also informally studied many striking arts.  I have used Sanchin-ryu many times both to deescalate situations as we are taught, but also the physical techniques to take control of a situation.

1) Yes, Sanchin is the name of a foundation kata in many Okinawan styles. The reason the name was chosen for the style is it represents the 3 approaches used in techniques and strategy (physical, mental, emotional or what some call spiritual).  

2) Yes, it is a fairly newer style. It has been around for almost 30 yrs now. The founder had studied both formally and informally many styles while growing up and combined them with his experience in confrontations to create this new approach (he has been studying MA's for now around 50 yrs).  After he declared it as a formal style he was challenged by many people who did not feel he could do so and when he first started would take on all challenge matches and did not lose one of those (this was relayed to me by someone who worked with him but was not yet a student and was witness to many people showing up to his job and issuing the challenges).

3) The "umbrella" organization that oversees the operation of Sanchin-Ryu has been run as a nonprofit organization since it's beginning. Therefore, there are NO FORMAL DOJOS OR SCHOOLS. ALL classes are run through community education programs to make it accessible and affordable for anyone to study. And there were times when I was in college and had no money and was told to keep coming anyways and not to worry about the money.  If this place has and actual building/dojo where students go please let me know since they don't have any formal dojos (also what state are you in if you don't mind my asking).

4) This is not a "belt factory" type style. It takes on average 4-5 yrs to reach black belt level. There are only 6 kyu ranks in between white and black and the promotions range from $15 from the first rank to $40 or $50 to black belt so again they are not adding lots of ranks or high costs to make money.

Again, if this place actually has a drive up School that he has PLEASE let me know since I don't think this is an actual school but someone who might have just taken the name of the style. Also if you want please email me in private with this information if you don't feel comfortable airing it in public (khirakis@aol.com).


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## S. Malanoski

Hello,


I am new to this site, and really do not want to come off like a troll, however:

Are those in SanChin Ryu cognaisant of the fact that the central part of their logo, which is highly advertized for sale on their site, and obviously used by their members,is in fact a reproduction of the charcole drawing done by the famous Roy Colonna of my teacher "Peter Urban, founder of USA / Urban GoJu," and that this artwork is the property of my teacher and can only be used as such with the permission of my teacher and or the Tuttle publishing company, as this artwork was made for, used in, and copyrighted, in it's use in my teacher's book The KaraTe DoJo?

Once again, that logo that you are using is a drawing of Peter Urban, and is protected by copyright.

As far as I can see, SanChin Ryu is IsShin Ryu. 

My teacher has no knowledge of them, so whats the deal?


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## punisher73

Once again, that logo that you are using is a drawing of Peter Urban, and is protected by copyright.
--------------
I don't know where the picture for the logo came from, but the Sanchin-Ryu logo is copyrighted as well, so there must have been enough changes made to it to not be an infringement.   


As far as I can see, SanChin Ryu is IsShin Ryu. 
-------------

Isshin Ryu is one of the styles that Master Dearman had ranking in when he created Sanchin Ryu. You will see the use of the vertical fist instead of a rotating horizontal punch, and you will see other techniques from other various Okinawan styles as well. BUT, the approach and the strategy used is different than in IsshinRyu and/or other styles. You many see similarities in them just like you would from Goju to Isshin but they are not the same.


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## S. Malanoski

Hello,


If you are a student of this person that you mention, please bring this up in conversation with him. He can get back to me if he likes at: 
Ironhands280@aol.com

Thank you, 

Steven L. Malanoski
U.S.A.G.A.
www.geocities.com/usagojukarate/gojujit.html
www.geocities.com/ironhands280


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## white belt

punisher73 said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> 
> I actually came across this post/forum by accident, so this is my first post here.  I have been a student of Sanchin-Ryu now for 10 yrs so I can answer (hopefully) any honest questions you have, and also try to address those already asked.  A little about myself, I have been in LE/Corrections for 7 yrs now, and have been certified in PPCT and PPCT spontaneous knife defense. Also have some training in Aikido/Judo/BJJ. I have also informally studied many striking arts.  I have used Sanchin-ryu many times both to deescalate situations as we are taught, but also the physical techniques to take control of a situation.
> 
> 1) Yes, Sanchin is the name of a foundation kata in many Okinawan styles. The reason the name was chosen for the style is it represents the 3 approaches used in techniques and strategy (physical, mental, emotional or what some call spiritual).
> 
> 2) Yes, it is a fairly newer style. It has been around for almost 30 yrs now. The founder had studied both formally and informally many styles while growing up and combined them with his experience in confrontations to create this new approach (he has been studying MA's for now around 50 yrs).  After he declared it as a formal style he was challenged by many people who did not feel he could do so and when he first started would take on all challenge matches and did not lose one of those (this was relayed to me by someone who worked with him but was not yet a student and was witness to many people showing up to his job and issuing the challenges).
> 
> 3) The "umbrella" organization that oversees the operation of Sanchin-Ryu has been run as a nonprofit organization since it's beginning. Therefore, there are NO FORMAL DOJOS OR SCHOOLS. ALL classes are run through community education programs to make it accessible and affordable for anyone to study. And there were times when I was in college and had no money and was told to keep coming anyways and not to worry about the money.  If this place has and actual building/dojo where students go please let me know since they don't have any formal dojos (also what state are you in if you don't mind my asking).
> 
> 4) This is not a "belt factory" type style. It takes on average 4-5 yrs to reach black belt level. There are only 6 kyu ranks in between white and black and the promotions range from $15 from the first rank to $40 or $50 to black belt so again they are not adding lots of ranks or high costs to make money.
> 
> Again, if this place actually has a drive up School that he has PLEASE let me know since I don't think this is an actual school but someone who might have just taken the name of the style. Also if you want please email me in private with this information if you don't feel comfortable airing it in public (khirakis@aol.com).



Punisher 73,

Thanks for replying.  I have gotten some annoying feedback from ex-students of this school and about a month ago I received a phone call (during teaching a class) from a man who was really P.O.ed that can't get out of his contract until next March (2005).  This man was asking me for legal advice against the school owner over the phone!  I told him to stick it out and try to learn as much as possible and if he is still unhappy in a year, come train with me.  I am doing fine businesswise and feel there is enough pie to go around for everybody.  My view of some other competitors schools are positive even though they teach something I don't.  If a man teaches Judo/Wing Chun,etc. properly I feel it benefits my community.  This schools ex-students seem to keep calling or signing up with me and when I heard about this Sanchin Ryu being taught by them, I had a red flag pop up.  This school owners claim to fame was TKD and now he is a Karate Master(?).  Curiosity got the better of me and I started this thread.  If you have affiliates in the Northern Ohio, Northern Indiana area, send me a private e-mail and maybe we can sort this out.  If someone were possibly using my schools credentials w/o permission, I would want to know. 

white belt


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## punisher73

If you have affiliates in the Northern Ohio, Northern Indiana area, send me a private e-mail and maybe we can sort this out. If someone were possibly using my schools credentials w/o permission, I would want to know. 

--------

We have a class in Fort Wayne Indiana, but that is run through community education in a public school or town hall type setting. I don't know about N. Ohio.  Give me a private email (I tried sending you a private message and it wouldn't let me, and didn't list an email address) so I can get more information about this because I am almost positive this guy is just using the name because...

1) We don't have set schools we only go through community education programs to keep cost down.
2) We don't have contracts for students, they registar through CE for an 8 week session for about $25-$35 depending on the community director.
3) ALL Senseis in SanchinRyu do NOT get payed for what they do, it is all on a volunteer basis in exchange our training with the masters is only $60 a year (membership dues to OSKA).


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## white belt

Readers,

I am coming to understand from private e-mails with Punisher 73 that his Sanchin Ryu is not a quick money marketing scheme and the school I pointed out earlier on this thread may have nothing to do with Punishers particular Sanchin system.  The details will be forthcoming soon I am sure.  I would like to thank Punisher 73 for helping to keep honest consumers and practicioners informed.  There is just too much hokum out there to sort through easily.

white belt


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## white belt

Another update from me, white belt,

Punisher 73 investigated the belt factory via some conversations and they are NOT teaching Sanchin Ryu.  The Sanchin Ryu teacher is teaching locally at a facility previously occupied by said beltfactory.  This caused a bit of confusion for me and some others around here.  I will personally notify my associates so the belt factory's rep. won't tarnish the Sanchin Ryu people.  I read some literature distributed by the local community center and mistakenly recalled a different Instructors name being printed with the Sanchin info.  Normally the belt factory had their info. printed in the schedules every season for quite some time and more people than myself figured it was just a new flavor of the month offered by them, the belt factory.

I owe the Sanchin Ryu guys a big apology for thinking they were involved with the school in question.  They are not.

I also must say Punisher 73 was very nice about straightening out my misperception.  I checked out the Sanchin Ryu website by putting "Sanchin systems" in my search engine and I was impressed by how honest an affordable the programs appear.  If the MT Admins. are ok with the suggestion, someone with the capability to post the link on this thread would be doing me a solid by helping to set the record straight.  Crow kind of tastes like chicken!

white belt


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## eoptap

Just to update anyone reading this thread. Sanchin-ryu just had its 50th anniversary. It is recognized in Okinawa, and no the symbol we use dose not match the symbol that is on the Goju web page either web page old or new. I have also forwarded the link for the thread to this log to the main office ty and have a nice day


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## emiliozapata

eosop , i am trying to find out if you have any locations to train in st clair or macomb counties thank you


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## oobergooberkc

I am a 13 year student of Sanchin Ryu. I am a Sho Dan (1st black) and 17 years old. I have studied under three of the four top ranked masters of this style. I do not speak on behalf of the masters but only on my own knowledge of our art. It is a very down-to-earth style that has taken many aspects of other styles along with some fresh ideas and mixed them all into one art. The founder of our style, Chief Grand Master Robert H. Dearman founded the style in the 70's in Leslie, MI. It is a non-competitive art form and teaches flight before fight if possible. To my knowledge (although there are many myths about all of this even within the practitioners of Sanchin Ryu), Sanchin Ryu is based heavily off of Isshin Ryu and is a hard style. Among many things, the origins of the name of our style is derived from the actual use of Sanchin within certain Forms and Kata. There are many pieces of other styles mixed into Sanchin Ryu, both Japanese, Chinese, and Okinawan. We are non-profit and I have been co-instructing classes for a few years with absolutely no pay. In fact the instructors at our summer camps have to pay to go, just to teach. The practitioners of Sanchin Ryu are very welcoming and kind. It is not a belt factory, although sometimes I wonder how some people got the rank they did :wink:.


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## Zero

Hey

I've recently heard others refer to this Sanchin Ryu style and heard it termed as a 'traditional' Okinawan karate form.  Is this the case, ie has it developed outside of but back from the same starting point as goju or is it more of a recent divergence/offshoot, or is it much more modern?

Don't get me wrong, as long as your art has workable, realistic practices then I don't care if it's 2 months or 200 years old but I'm not aware of its Okinawan or Japanese lineage.


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## punisher73

Zero said:


> Hey
> 
> I've recently heard others refer to this Sanchin Ryu style and heard it termed as a 'traditional' Okinawan karate form. Is this the case, ie has it developed outside of but back from the same starting point as goju or is it more of a recent divergence/offshoot, or is it much more modern?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, as long as your art has workable, realistic practices then I don't care if it's 2 months or 200 years old but I'm not aware of its Okinawan or Japanese lineage.


 
It is an American art, but with okinawan roots.  You would recognize many elements from the okinawan arts and how they played such a large role in it's development.  CGM Dearman wanted to give credit to that fact.  It is heavily influenced by Isshinryu in particular.  The art of Sanchin Ryu has been around for over 30 years, so it is fairly "recent" in view of other okinawan arts, such as, Isshinryu that has been around for 50 years, or Goju and Uechi which has been around for close to 90 yrs.

There is ANOTHER Sanchin Ryu, in England that was started by a Japanese gentleman which adds to the confusion.


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## idunno

I'd like to provide another, more neutral perspective on Sanchin-ryu.  I only reached 1st degree black belt, and that was 12 years ago, after which I stopped, so my knowledge may not be up-to-date or complete.

Sanchin-ryu grew up mostly in Michigan, with classes taught out of community centers, parks, and schools.  There were (are?) classes all over the state of Michigan, in some cases every 10 miles, as well as a less dense population of classes throughout the US and the world.

I have no doubts that the founder, CGM Dearman, is an accomplished martial artist.  I've seen him spar, with very light contact, in the middle of a pack of people, and toss them about like rag dolls (one of the FEW times I ever saw sparring)  I also believe some, if not most, of the style's higher students, the 5th-6th Masters, know how to defend themselves.  The tippy-top students, the "disciple masters", the 7th degree plus students,
carry themselves like they know how to fight.  They also seem to be able to twist you up like a pretzel, at least in class - so they seem to have a pretty decent knowledge of the mechanics of PAIN.  

A 7th degree I knew once knocked a druggie out who tried to shoot him, so I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing... just like anyone who can hit hard, won't hesitate, and has the element of surprise.

I don't think some of the Masters, particularly the less experienced ones, are near as capable as they think against a real, unsurprised opponent, although I could be wrong.  I "sparred" a 5th degree Master, who told me I was doing ok until I started grappling with him.  It was when I started grappling that I started winning...  this is a one time observation.  I'm not saying that they aren't any good, just that they aren't as good as the hero worship by the Sanchinkas seems to imply.

The organization itself was originally run by Dearman, then by Dearman's top disciple, who became a 7th degree black belt (after 20 or so years, he's higher now).  It's unclear what salary they draw from this.  I don't dispute their right to earn a salary from teaching... I do question the business practices - once you reach black belt, you get to teach (when you "truly" begin to learn) and you teaching (for free) pays for your black belt classes.  The money from students you teach all goes back to Sanchin-ryu HQ.  On top of this, I think you pay an annual membership fee.  Additionally, I was encouraged to take it "at the students' own pace" when teaching.  This encouragement wasn't done in a slimy way at all, but seemed very honest.  Today, when I look back on it, it seems like a rip-off... although perhaps less of a rip-off than commercial dojos.

Maybe this changed, but the fact it went (goes) on for so long really makes me wonder.

I can't speak for the level of training above black belt.  However, from everything I experienced (about 4-5 years worth, and I visited many schools in Michigan) the quality of training below black belt is 99% worthless.

During my time there were 10 basic strikes, including a kick, 10 combinations, and 10 forms (katas, katas in Sanchin-ryu are forms), along with other techniques here and there.  A lot of emphasis was made on snapback, or bringing the strike back as fast as possible after the moment of impact.  Emphasis on proper technique stopped there, until black belt.  

A student could not know all of these techniques, and still make black belt.  Emphasis on rank promotions was not made on the number of techniques known, which I agree with.  Neither was emphasis made on how well those techniques were performed.  Rank promotions were (are?) made based on a teacher's gut-level indication that a student's personal growth is good enough for the next belt.

Often, a good 1/4 to 3/4s of any given class was spent talking about what I felt to be non-applicable voodoo, or development of your mental/spiritual self.  To an outside observer, this wouldn't have a freaky religious tone, more of a pretend-karate tone.  I'm ok with emphasis of positive values, but a lot of time was spent on this, to the detriment of teaching real self-defense skills.

The other part of the class was usually spent "discovering" new and different ways the basic techniques could be applied, or how techniques from the forms could be applied.  Very rarely was this done with a partner, usually it was done against the air, with hypothetical discoveries of untested quality.  

"Here's another way to do Combined Basic Advanced #1 - punch to the left, now instead of throwing a backfist to your right, raise your elbow parallel and throw a backfist to your right."

Exploring Sanchin-ryu techniques is very probably a useful technique if you already have a good foundation.  If you know enough about applying techniques effectively to a real person to judge the merit of trying something new - OR maybe if you understand how to manipulate the mechanics of an opponent well enough.  Even then, you should be able to apply techniques/manipulate mechanics under stress.  Neither of these were really taught, at least not before black belt, at least not to me or anyone I knew.  I will wager 500$ that it is not taught today, at least not below "Masters' classes" (if there).

Nothing about targets, or power (except from a 6th degree Master).There was mention when I became black belt that to really get power in my punches I had to start to "use my stance."  Why this wasn't taught from the beginning, I'm not sure.

Almost no time was spent in actual, real sparring, against a live-opponent.  Experience with use of technique in highly stressful scenarios, or live sparring, happened once in my training.  This was done by kicking/distracting me during forms practice... at the air.

NEVER was the training enough to get any experience or combat intuition.
There was no teaching of any systematic application of techniques - i.e. basic counter to a punch, basic counter to a side kick, basic counter to a takedown, etc.   The common answer to a question "how do I block a punch" was that "blocking is impossible, you should strike instead".  But no strikes were shown, a student must've been intended to "discover" the best way to stop a punch or takedown through "exploring" the techniques.  Not a bad concept, perhaps, but there weren't any drills where you struck an opponent's punch or kick either, unless you discovered them on your own.

I knew a couple who were junior black-belts who did these drills on their own.  She was 6 inches shorter than me, about 40 lbs. lighter, and could knock me down by crossing her elbows in front of me and uncrossing them.  Every time.  Even under stress.  But that was from self-practice of training methodologies that weren't taught in any class I saw.  I suppose the other students are supposed to rely on luck...

Long story short, no development of motor coordination, instinctive awareness of distance and timing, tactics, much less strategy - at least not before black belt (and I didn't see it in the year I attended black belt classes, either).  Those should be @#$*ing fundamentals, and taught from the beginning, or soon after.

When sparring against students from other styles who did systematically spar, I got my butt whupped.  Consistently.  I only ever successfully used Sanchin-ryu when I had the element of surprise.

Perhaps the Masters know all these things.  Perhaps these fundamentals, or a better understanding of these fundamentals than I have, were meant to be taught from the beginning.  In that case, Sanchin-ryu has a serious quality control problem.

Perhaps they aren't meant to be taught except to Masters.  In that case, I'd save my money and go take boxing classes, unless you want to wait 15 years to be able to defend yourself without blind luck.


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## punisher73

> During my time there were 10 basic strikes, including a kick, 10 combinations, and 10 forms (katas, katas in Sanchin-ryu are forms), along with other techniques here and there. A lot of emphasis was made on snapback, or bringing the strike back as fast as possible after the moment of impact. Emphasis on proper technique stopped there, until black belt.


 
OK, it's hard to believe that you have the experience you claim to have when you have the "basics" of the system even wrong.

1) Yes, there are 10 basics.  They are divided into 3 punches, 2 kicks, 2 elbows, 2 knees, one combo shuto/heel palm strike.

2) There are also 8 more "basic" kicks (plus the other 2) for 10 basic kicks to learn

3)  10 CBA's:  What are they based on?  What are they to show?

4) 10 Forms:  NO, forms and katas ARE NOT the same in Sanchin-Ryu.  The first 10 forms are ONE kata broken down into 10 seperate parts.  Each form is a small study to illustrate a concept.  

5) 10 Katas:  Katas build on where forms left off, they are alot longer in length and combine different concepts to show and learn a strategy for dealing with different scenarios.

Refinement is up to the student.  If you are happy with what you are doing, CGM Dearman is not going to come up and tell you to change it.  He has found through the years that when he does that it is not productive.  So instead, he waits until you ask for refinement and he will gladly give it to you and the reasons behind it.  The Chief Instructors are the same way.


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## stilldunno

punisher73 said:


> OK, it's hard to believe that you have the experience you claim to have when you have the "basics" of the system even wrong.



My mistake... didn't think the technical details were pertinent... 

Basics:
1.  Straight punch, fist vertical, more or less level
2.  Ball kick, or whatever you want to call it, below-level snapped back kick
3.  Much like straight punch only fist turned horizontal, palm up
4.  Fist brought up to armpit level first, then out much like 3
5.  Horizontal elbow
6.  Vertical elbow
7.  Knee
8.  Kinda horizontal-ish diagonal knee
9.  Kick done with outside of foot
10.  Chuto/palm strike.

Then a few other kicks, yeah - heel thrust, and a kick with the inside of the foot, I'm not sure I remember all those.



punisher73 said:


> 3)  10 CBA's:  What are they based on?  What are they to show?


 
I guess a non-sanchinka could see them as combinations of strikes against one or multiple opponents, although sanchinkas ascribe to them all sorts of abstract concepts, like invisibility, so I'm sure there's some abstract concept I'd miss in any explanation.

Off the top of my head without thinking about it too much:
(Right-handed)
1.  Ichi to left, backfist to right
2.  San to front, hammerfist same hand down to side-ish/right-ish, ni-kick to front left side
3.  Ni to front, back kick, heel thrust to side
4.  Shi, chuto to side, elbow, rake/knee


4) 10 Forms:  NO, forms and katas ARE 
NOT the same in Sanchin-Ryu.  The first 10 forms are ONE kata broken down into 10 seperate parts.  Each form is a small study to illustrate a concept.  

Ok, let me clarify.  The 10 forms are Sanchin-ryu's term for the shorter sets, which are called kata in many other Okinawan arts.  The 10 katas are the terms for the longer sets, which are called forms in many other Okinawan arts.

I suppose forms(katas) was a bit ambiguous, but know you know that I knew what I was saying.


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## punisher73

Thanks for clarifying for me.  I have met students before that never really trained in Sanchin-Ryu, but were students if you know what I mean say some really weird things (It was a few years ago, but I heard one blackbelt say that the reason people didn't know all of the katas was because CGM hadn't gotten around to making them yet--WHAT?? Even at the time I knew the top students had seen them).  I just wanted to make sure that you did know and wasn't going on hearsay.

I wasn't trying to be tricky with my CBA question, it was meant as a straight forward question.  CBA's are based on ippon kumite as it was applied traditionally.  Your first move isn't meant as an end all, it is meant to interupt your attackers flow giving you the opportunity to take control of the situation.  It does also teach how to recycle your "energy" that is, one technique helps flow into the other without starting and stopping or just pistoning out your punches.  It also teaches how to address opponents from different angles.  This is for others reading the post that aren't familiar with what we are talking about.



> When sparring against students from other styles who did systematically spar, I got my butt whupped. Consistently. I only ever successfully used Sanchin-ryu when I had the element of surprise.


 
How were you not able to use it?  You mentioned Bill Adams, diddn't you ever hear him talking about learning to "box" with you basics?  Without knowing you or the other styles, etc.  I can't really comment on the specifics, but the people I know that have done that and weren't too good tried to fight the other person's fight with the rules that the other person was comfortable with.  Sanchin-Ryu's greatest strength is when the other person wants to engage you and hurt you (look at felony fights on youtube).  It CAN be applied, but it's main purpose is not to stand at a distance and try to engage each other like you see in boxing/kickboxing.  That is the other reason it does not teach "formal blocking".  It is far more effective to use positioning and evasion, along with head movement and parrying to deal with a punch.  If the other person is telegraphing their punch,we CHOOSE to strike into the attacking limb to destroy it and take control, it is never a reactive thing.  Which is why with beginners we spend more time on getting them to take the offensive and enter at angles so they don't have a reactive mindset and try "blocking" all of their attackers punches and end up playing catch up and never taking control.


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## punisher73

> Often, a good 1/4 to 3/4s of any given class was spent talking about what I felt to be non-applicable voodoo, or development of your mental/spiritual self. To an outside observer, this wouldn't have a freaky religious tone, more of a pretend-karate tone. I'm ok with emphasis of positive values, but a lot of time was spent on this, to the detriment of teaching real self-defense skills.


 
Sanchin=3 battles (physical, mental, emotional or spiritual)  How many fights have you been in during the past year?  How many disagreements have you been in at work, family, friends?  I'd be willing to bet that the later FAR outways physical confrontations.  CGM Dearman found that being a good fighter was a rather shallow pursuit and one that really doesn't take alot of time if that is all you want to concentrate on.  It is the development of ourselves that helps us in our everyday lives and is a lifelong pursuit.  If that is not your goal, then I don't fault anyone for that.  On the other hand don't fault people who do try and use Sanchin-ryu as a vehicle to learn self-defense and to better themselves.  Ever notice that almost ALL of the great fighters through history turned to the more internal aspects of their art when they realized that the pure pursuit of fighting was shallow in the bigger picture?  Karate has almost always been concerned with the development of the whole being and not just about fighting.  So again, it sounds as if your main gripe isn't with Sanchin-ryu itself but in the pursuit of other things besides fighting.

Yes, blackbelts "volunteer" their time to do a class.  CGM believes in what he does and he wants it to be for everyone.  By using schools, community ed, etc.  He doesn't have to worry about the costs of running a school and can keep the price VERY reasonable for anyone.  In fact, my latest session I am going to be instructing is $25 for 10 weeks.  The classes that do "make money" are used to keep the classes going that are struggling.  The head office, does all the leg work to schedule your class, get your class, and advertise your class all out of their budget.  OSKA has always been run as a non-profit organization and CGM Dearman does NOT draw his salary from that.

I remember when I was in college, I didn't have money to keep studying and when I talked to my instructor he told me to just keep showing up and to not worry about it.  Sanchin-ryu isn't about the money.  I have had parents that pretty much spent all of their extra money to have their kids study.  I have covered some belt promotions out of my own pocket because I believe in what I do and what can be gained.

PM me if you want to discuss what classes and instructors you studied with.


----------



## Fault

oobergooberkc said:


> It is not a belt factory, although sometimes I wonder how some people got the rank they did :wink:.



Hey KC! What KC and the punisher have been saying it totally true. Also i do wonder that at times also


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## Haze

I see that they have a on-line dojo. About $5 a month and you get one on one instruction from a Master.

http://sanchinsystems.com/dojo.html


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## punisher73

Haze said:


> I see that they have a on-line dojo. About $5 a month and you get one on one instruction from a Master.
> 
> http://sanchinsystems.com/dojo.html


 

Yep, it's meant to be kind of a class in between classes.  It has very short clips to spark ideas for your personal workout.  They are meant to be a "seed" for your studies and it is up to you to put in the sweat and effort to make it grow and work for you.


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## dianhsuhe

Hey Punisher!  Read this thread....Good stuff-

I like the non-profit idea.  I hjave been teaching for many years without ever receiving $.  I believe that martial arts, much like art galleries, should be free or close to free.  All that should be required is a sincere willingness to learn and work hard.

Take care-
Jamey


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## Bill Mattocks

Sanchin-Ryu is bunk.


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## dancingalone

I'm curious what alterations & additions were made to isshin-ryu to end up with sanchin-ryu.  Thought Punisher was an isshin-ryu man.  Maybe he switched from sanchin-ryu.


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## punisher73

dancingalone said:


> I'm curious what alterations & additions were made to isshin-ryu to end up with sanchin-ryu. Thought Punisher was an isshin-ryu man. Maybe he switched from sanchin-ryu.


 
I know alot of the history and applications of Isshin-ryu (and other arts)because I like looking at history and looking into many different arts to learn about them and what caused them to be created etc.

I have NEVER been anything other than Sanchin-Ryu through and through. 



> Sanchin-Ryu is bunk


 
Sorry you feel that way Mr. Mattocks.  Everyone finds a path that they like and benefits from.


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## punisher73

dancingalone said:


> I'm curious what alterations & additions were made to isshin-ryu to end up with sanchin-ryu. Thought Punisher was an isshin-ryu man. Maybe he switched from sanchin-ryu.


 
Isshin-ryu was one of the styles studied and was the last style that CGM Dearman formally taught (had an Isshin-ryu dojo in Albion) before he started Sanchin-Ryu.  While there are some similarities, I would _not _call it an Isshin-ryu offshoot because there were many more influences that were a part of it to put a finger on X,Y,Z were added or subtracted.

Like I have said, I have looked into ALOT of different traditional arts looking at how they were created and how they train and what their techniques/strategies are.  I have not found anything in those arts that are not represented in Sanchin-Ryu.


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## dancingalone

So what are the distinguishing traits of sanchin-ryu, physical or otherwise?  Are there are lyrics or precepts you can share with us?


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## Sanchin-E

Sanchin-Ryu is bunk? Take a look at Bullshido.net and see what they think of Isshinryu, hehe.


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## dancingalone

Sanchin-E said:


> Sanchin-Ryu is bunk? Take a look at Bullshido.net and see what they think of Isshinryu, hehe.



Frankly the bullshido crowd has a generally dim view of karate in general.  Only the full-contact styles like kyokushin get any respect from them.

Anyway, since you are here, can you answer my question about sanchin-ryu's distinguishing features vs. isshin-ryu?  I'm quite curious.


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## Bill Mattocks

http://sanchinsystems.com/dojo/mast...ert-h-dearman-discusses-sanchin-ryus-history/


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## dancingalone

Bill Mattocks said:


> http://sanchinsystems.com/dojo/mast...ert-h-dearman-discusses-sanchin-ryus-history/



Thanks, but that video didn't say much once one listens to it.  

Summary:  Dearman has been working on his system his whole life and he had some great teachers who most have never heard of.  He never envisioned sanchin-ryu becoming worldwide as it (apparently) has; he just wanted to set up an affordable training option for people.

Dearman seems like a nice guy.  I'll overlook the bling-bling.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

dancingalone said:


> Thanks, but that video didn't say much once one listens to it.
> 
> Summary:  Dearman has been working on his system his whole life and he had some great teachers who most have never heard of.  He never envisioned sanchin-ryu becoming worldwide as it (apparently) has; he just wanted to set up an affordable training option for people.
> 
> Dearman seems like a nice guy.  I'll overlook the bling-bling.



I think you hit the high points.


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## Sanchin-E

I'm in the style, but I'm too much of a novice to give any useful feedback. My only point (which has been made over and over on these forums) is that every art sucks to somebody. Why bother writing empty negative comments. At least Bullshido people have reasons why they think that Karate, and isshinryu in particular, sucks.


----------



## dancingalone

Well, we know from the previous posts that sanchin-ryu has at least a version of the Chart techniques from Isshin-ryu and it seems like they also use the vertical fist and block with the muscles of the arm rather than the blade.

Some open questions I have:

Do they have all the same empty hand and kobudo kata as Isshin-ryu?

Do they follow the same koans Shimabuko learned and embedded into his teachings?

E.G.

_The heart is the same as heaven and earth
The blood moving is like the moon and the sun
The manner of drinking and spitting is either hard or soft
A person's unbalance acts like a weight
The body should be able to change motion at any time
Strike when the opportunity presents itself
The eyes must see in all directions
The ears must hear everything_


----------



## punisher73

dancingalone said:


> Frankly the bullshido crowd has a generally dim view of karate in general. Only the full-contact styles like kyokushin get any respect from them.
> 
> Anyway, since you are here, can you answer my question about sanchin-ryu's distinguishing features vs. isshin-ryu? I'm quite curious.


 
I agree about the "bullshido crowd", if it's not tournament/mma fighting than it is not real/good/effective etc.

One of the main features I would say in Sanchin-Ryu is that there are no formal blocks taught.  The student is taught body movement,evasion, angling to avoid an attack.  Also, if the student can read/see the attack, they are taught to attack the incoming arm/leg etc.  It is more an offensive mindset than a defensive one and trying to "stop" what an attacker is doing.  Blocking something that comes flying towards your face is instinctual.  We want to train what to do after that.  Like many other okinawan based systems, the techniques are designed to injure your attacker and get away safely.  They target the body's weak points and are meant for close quarter contact.  If you were to look at just the physical manifestations of the techniques you would recognize most of the technques as they would be in another style.  A vertical snap punch to the solar plexus is going to look the same no matter where it came from.   

But, to me what really sets Sanchin-Ryu apart from other styles are the forms and katas (Forms are differentiated from katas in our style because of what they train/teach).  The forms are set up to illustrate a concept and how to use that concept in an altercation.  For example, Wansu teaches how to use the dump, it gives the concept of distancing, timing, how to set a dump up and gives an example of the dump.  Now, the student takes that information and starts to understand it and how to "create" more dumps with proper set ups etc and how to move an attacker into position where they might be susceptible for a dump. This concept also extends to our verbal altercations in life.  Most of us are more likely to get into an argument/disagreement with a loved one, friend or co-worker than getting jumped on the street.  How do you handle that?  The forms have the mental component that teaches de-escalation techniques and strategies based on the physical movements and ideas.  I don't know of any style that teaches this concept inherent with it's physical movements.

Along with this, the forms/katas ARE set up to all be a study in multiple attackers and how to move to create human shields, how to cut off angles or approach by our attackers and how to move myself to manipulate their behavior.  They also teach "how" to use the body to generate power with less effort.  Reading the material from the top bunkai experts (Abernathy, Kane and Wilder) their view is that the traditional katas are NOT designed as multiple attacker sequences so again this is something different that is not reflected in Isshin-Ryu and many other styles.

I hope I answered some of what you are asking, it is very hard because it is the application/strategy that is unique and not necessarily the physical technique alone.  If you have some specific follow up questions I would be happy to try and answer those.


----------



## dancingalone

punisher73 said:


> But, to me what really sets Sanchin-Ryu apart from other styles are the forms and katas (Forms are differentiated from katas in our style because of what they train/teach).  The forms are set up to illustrate a concept and how to use that concept in an altercation.  For example, Wansu teaches how to use the dump, it gives the concept of distancing, timing, how to set a dump up and gives an example of the dump.  Now, the student takes that information and starts to understand it and how to "create" more dumps with proper set ups etc and how to move an attacker into position where they might be susceptible for a dump. This concept also extends to our verbal altercations in life.  Most of us are more likely to get into an argument/disagreement with a loved one, friend or co-worker than getting jumped on the street.  How do you handle that?  The forms have the mental component that teaches de-escalation techniques and strategies based on the physical movements and ideas.  I don't know of any style that teaches this concept inherent with it's physical movements.



So, a 'form' also has a mental component to it.  Is Wansu a form or a kata in your parlance?



punisher73 said:


> *Along with this, the forms/katas ARE set up to all be a study in multiple attackers and how to move to create human shields*, how to cut off angles or approach by our attackers and how to move myself to manipulate their behavior.  They also teach "how" to use the body to generate power with less effort.  Reading the material from the top bunkai experts (Abernathy, Kane and Wilder) their view is that the traditional katas are NOT designed as multiple attacker sequences so again this is something different that is not reflected in Isshin-Ryu and many other styles.



That IS different.  Are there any video clips you know of that would serve as a case lesson?

I have always thought that some martial arts handle the issue of multiple attackers better from a base pedagogy perspective.  Usually they weren't called karate IMO...  I'd be curious how a sanchin-ryu solution teaches the perimeter movement compared to silat or even aikido.


----------



## punisher73

dancingalone said:


> Well, we know from the previous posts that sanchin-ryu has at least a version of the Chart techniques from Isshin-ryu and it seems like they also use the vertical fist and block with the muscles of the arm rather than the blade.
> 
> Some open questions I have:
> 
> Do they have all the same empty hand and kobudo kata as Isshin-ryu?
> 
> Do they follow the same koans Shimabuko learned and embedded into his teachings?
> 
> E.G.
> 
> _The heart is the same as heaven and earth_
> _The blood moving is like the moon and the sun_
> _The manner of drinking and spitting is either hard or soft_
> _A person's unbalance acts like a weight_
> _The body should be able to change motion at any time_
> _Strike when the opportunity presents itself_
> _The eyes must see in all directions_
> _The ears must hear everything_


 
Some of the basic techniques are the same as some of the "chart techniques" in Isshin-Ryu. But, they are not organized in the same manner.  It should be noted that Isshin-Ryu's basic upper body chart was a copy of Funakoshi beginners kata "Ten no kata" so it is nothing new or unique in and of itself.  Our basics are arranged so that each basic sets up for the one before it or after it.  For example, basic uppercut to the solar plexus sets up for the thrust punch to the chin or the thrust to the chin will set up for the punch to the solar plexus.  We have ten basic techniques which are the foundational movements that the other techniques are designed on.

The concepts of the kenpo gokui are something that is taught as a course of good self-defense, but the kenpo gokui are not taught or mentioned as a seperate thing as Shimabuku taught or listed as the lyrics/poem.

We do use the vertical fist, but we do not teach bone blocks at all.  It would be a strike using the bone portion of the forearm or the pisiform bone to damage the incoming limb.

The katas share the same names and strategies, but they are altered to illustrate Sanchin-ryu's approach.  Again, to use Wansu as an example.  We are not trying to historically pass down the techniques that a chinese envoy taught, so we did not just change the physical appearance of the form and call it new (For example, many of Isshin-Ryu's katas).  We do however, find the concepts that Wansu taught for fighting very valuable so we use the name "Wansu" to pay tribute to where the strategies came from although the specific techniques and strategies are unique to Sanchin-Ryu.


----------



## punisher73

dancingalone said:


> So, a 'form' also has a mental component to it. Is Wansu a form or a kata in your parlance?
> 
> 
> 
> That IS different. Are there any video clips you know of that would serve as a case lesson?
> 
> I have always thought that some martial arts handle the issue of multiple attackers better from a base pedagogy perspective. Usually they weren't called karate IMO... I'd be curious how a sanchin-ryu solution teaches the perimeter movement compared to silat or even aikido.


 
Please describe how you define "perimeter movement" so we are on the same page.

I will try and give a quick example to get the ball rolling though.  Picture two attackers in front of you off at 45 degree angles.  So if you are in the middle of a clock, one would be at about 1:30 and the other at about 10:30.  If they start to close, and I pull straight back to 6:00, I have done nothing to improve my positioning because both can still close in equally without interference.  But, if I create distance and move along the 3 o'clock line, then when the attacker at 1:30 closes in to get to me, he has now cut off the line of approach to the attacker at 10:30.  Again, this is just a quick basic example.


----------



## punisher73

dancingalone said:


> Thanks, but that video didn't say much once one listens to it.
> 
> Summary: Dearman has been working on his system his whole life and he had some great teachers who most have never heard of. He never envisioned sanchin-ryu becoming worldwide as it (apparently) has; he just wanted to set up an affordable training option for people.
> 
> Dearman seems like a nice guy. I'll overlook the bling-bling.


 
Decent summary of the video, as the video stated, when people ask about the "history of Sanchin-Ryu", they are really asking about his biography.  He has always wanted the focus to be on the students and their study not on him.  I agree, that as a curiousity it would be interesting to know all of the styles etc.  But, as a student, it does not help me better myself or my education if I know that he started in Judo, trained in boxing obtained blackbelts in Shotokan, Isshin-Ryu and some others, or the fact that he also trained in kung fu.  How does that help YOU take the information and apply it to your training and make it work?  

Why spend time trying to justify what you do to people who are going to have already decided and prejudged?  It goes one of two ways.  1)  He lists all of his accomplishments and then gets judged that he couldn't have done those things or 2) He lists all of his accomplishments and is judged that he didn't do enough things.

I am of the firm belief that if CGM Dearman, was of asian decent and presented Sanchin-Ryu to the world, there wouldn't be an issue with it. But, everyone has to find something to justify what they do as "better".  I find it interesting though that on Okinawa, Isshin-Ryu is looked down as a substyle of Shorin-Ryu, and both the Goju-ryu and Shorin-Ryu groups say that Shimabuku never had enough training to learn the whole systems before he started his own.  It's the same argument with every style out there.  *EVERY *style was started by someone at some point, what makes it more or less valid when it is started in Okinawa?

If you enjoy it and it benefits you and your life and it helps protect yourself, then why care what someone else does?


----------



## dancingalone

punisher73 said:


> Please describe how you define "perimeter movement" so we are on the same page.
> 
> I will try and give a quick example to get the ball rolling though.  Picture two attackers in front of you off at 45 degree angles.  So if you are in the middle of a clock, one would be at about 1:30 and the other at about 10:30.  If they start to close, and I pull straight back to 6:00, I have done nothing to improve my positioning because both can still close in equally without interference.  But, if I create distance and move along the 3 o'clock line, then when the attacker at 1:30 closes in to get to me, he has now cut off the line of approach to the attacker at 10:30.  Again, this is just a quick basic example.



Your example is a good one for what I call perimeter movement.  Essentially you never want to be in a position where multiple limbs from the same person, much less multiple people can hit you.  So we have the goal?  How do we achieve it?

Different systems call for different tactical solutions.  Some might take a vector that carries you to the side of the attackers, presenting a target to only one.  Some might call for an entry into one attacker, defeating him along the way.  Variations also take place within the techniques and footwork used in trying to accomplish these tactics.

Anyway, I'd love to see an example Sanchin-ryu lesson illustrating a kata-oriented lesson for handling multiple assailants.  If I sign up for the $5 deal, is there a video online?


----------



## dancingalone

punisher73 said:


> Decent summary of the video, as the video stated, when people ask about the "history of Sanchin-Ryu", they are really asking about his biography.  He has always wanted the focus to be on the students and their study not on him.  I agree, that as a curiousity it would be interesting to know all of the styles etc.  But, as a student, it does not help me better myself or my education if I know that he started in Judo, trained in boxing obtained blackbelts in Shotokan, Isshin-Ryu and some others, or the fact that he also trained in kung fu.  How does that help YOU take the information and apply it to your training and make it work?



<shrugs>  I really don't care about Dearman, the person.  I don't know him, nor do I train with him.  I didn't know Shimabuku or train with him either.  But knowing that Shimabuku took aspects of his training from shorin-ryu and goju-ryu lets me understand better his creation of isshin-ryu, since I have studied both parent systems.

So with regard to Dearman, it is illuminating to know that he taught isshin-ryu.  Just as it would be to know for example if he is a dan in judo or TKD or what not.  We are the sum of our parts.  My karate students have excellent kicks because I studied tae kwon do and I have taught them some of the Korean kicks which fill a gap in their karate education.



> Why spend time trying to justify what you do to people who are going to have already decided and prejudged?  It goes one of two ways.  1)  He lists all of his accomplishments and then gets judged that he couldn't have done those things or 2) He lists all of his accomplishments and is judged that he didn't do enough things.


I've got no beef with Dearman or what you've told me so far about sanchin-ryu.  The only bit I question is the no sparring part, but that's hardly unusual in Okinawan karate.

I do think it would be useful at least for future sanchin-ryu students however if Mr. Dearman was candid and transparent about his training background.  (Not saying he isn't in person... it's just not easy to find on his website if it is even there, and you'd think this should be no-brainer information to put out.)



> I am of the firm belief that if CGM Dearman, was of asian decent and presented Sanchin-Ryu to the world, there wouldn't be an issue with it. But, everyone has to find something to justify what they do as "better".  I find it interesting though that on Okinawa, Isshin-Ryu is looked down as a substyle of Shorin-Ryu, and both the Goju-ryu and Shorin-Ryu groups say that Shimabuku never had enough training to learn the whole systems before he started his own.  It's the same argument with every style out there.  *EVERY *style was started by someone at some point, what makes it more or less valid when it is started in Okinawa?
> 
> If you enjoy it and it benefits you and your life and it helps protect yourself, then why care what someone else does?


Someone will always look down on another system.  I understand that.  Heck, some Chinese stylists mock Okinawan karate.  That's not to say that everything is relative however.  Some systems really do having holes in concept.  Some might teach poor physical technique.  Some might overemphasis a specific set of techniques or tactics to the point of caricature.

At the moment, I don't have a positive or a negative personal impression of sanchin-ryu, but I appreciate the information.  You're a good ambassador for your style.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

punisher73 said:


> How does that help YOU take the information and apply it to your training and make it work?



It doesn't.  But that's not the purpose for the question.



> Why spend time trying to justify what you do to people who are going to have already decided and prejudged?  It goes one of two ways.  1)  He lists all of his accomplishments and then gets judged that he couldn't have done those things or 2) He lists all of his accomplishments and is judged that he didn't do enough things.



When I chose my family doctor, I did research on his credentials.  The fact that my doctor has good credentials doesn't mean he's a great doctor, but it gave me a level of confidence that I was going to get quality treatment.  I have no doubt that doctors of lesser credentials could be as good or better than mine, but I can't simply try every doctor in town until I find a good one; I have go find some criteria by which to make decisions regarding my own life and health.  That's the purpose of having a history one is willing to disclose.  

How would you feel about going to a doctor who refused to tell you what medical school he went to, where he graduated in his class, what his grades were, what boards he was certified by, but told you that he had been trained 'lots of places' by 'lots of doctors you never heard of'?  He might be a great doctor - it's certainly possible - but would that give you a warm fuzzy feeling?



> I am of the firm belief that if CGM Dearman, was of asian decent and presented Sanchin-Ryu to the world, there wouldn't be an issue with it.



I don't know about anyone else, but I think I'd have the same questions.



> *EVERY *style was started by someone at some point, what makes it more or less valid when it is started in Okinawa?



It doesn't.  But to the best of my knowledge, every style from Okinawa (and most from elsewhere that I'm aware of) have a history.  A list of teachers, dates trained, belts earned.  Sometimes tournaments fought, other references, etc.

This adds something that has noting to do with superiority of any given style.  It adds legitimacy.



> If you enjoy it and it benefits you and your life and it helps protect yourself, then why care what someone else does?



Good question.  Why care that someone else is curious about the history of one's art?

*I believe that it is entirely possible* for a very talented individual to  come up with an effective self-defense system *entirely on their own*, or  with very little traditional training from other instructors.

With respect for that possibility, if I were that person, I would think it worthwhile to state that clearly and openly.  I would list my instructors, the dates and places I trained, the belts or certifications I earned.  If they were not high ranks, so what?  I'd be stating clearly that I came up with *my* system on my own, and I'm not claiming to have legitimacy through a past I allude to but will not name.  Sure, others would criticize.  As you said, they'll do so anyway.  At least I'd have been open about it.

 But that's just me.  Perhaps others don't feel that way.


----------



## punisher73

dancingalone said:


> That is a misnomer.  Two man drills, ippon kumite are utilized and jiyu kumite is used as well.  The free sparring aspect is just not emphasized as much and again is used as a specific tool in the training.


----------



## dancingalone

punisher73 said:


> That is a misnomer.  Two man drills, ippon kumite are utilized and jiyu kumite is used as well.  The free sparring aspect is just not emphasized as much and again is used as a specific tool in the training.



Pretty standard stuff then in contrast to what was mentioned a few years ago about there being no free sparring.

There aren't many better drills than jiyu kumite to work on one's ability to hit a moving, adversarial target while being under duress yourself.  Cardio-conditioning and general physical toughness are also qualities which are helped by regular free sparring.

IMO jiyu kumite isn't the most important part of karate training, but I would look carefully at a school that says they do not emphasize it to make sure that they build up the desirable characteristics jiyu kumite brings in other ways.


----------



## punisher73

Bill Mattocks said:


> It doesn't. But that's not the purpose for the question.
> 
> 
> 
> When I chose my family doctor, I did research on his credentials. The fact that my doctor has good credentials doesn't mean he's a great doctor, but it gave me a level of confidence that I was going to get quality treatment. I have no doubt that doctors of lesser credentials could be as good or better than mine, but I can't simply try every doctor in town until I find a good one; I have go find some criteria by which to make decisions regarding my own life and health. That's the purpose of having a history one is willing to disclose.
> 
> How would you feel about going to a doctor who refused to tell you what medical school he went to, where he graduated in his class, what his grades were, what boards he was certified by, but told you that he had been trained 'lots of places' by 'lots of doctors you never heard of'? He might be a great doctor - it's certainly possible - but would that give you a warm fuzzy feeling?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but I think I'd have the same questions.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't. But to the best of my knowledge, every style from Okinawa (and most from elsewhere that I'm aware of) have a history. A list of teachers, dates trained, belts earned. Sometimes tournaments fought, other references, etc.
> 
> This adds something that has noting to do with superiority of any given style. It adds legitimacy.
> 
> 
> 
> Good question. Why care that someone else is curious about the history of one's art?
> 
> *I believe that it is entirely possible* for a very talented individual to come up with an effective self-defense system *entirely on their own*, or with very little traditional training from other instructors.
> 
> With respect for that possibility, if I were that person, I would think it worthwhile to state that clearly and openly. I would list my instructors, the dates and places I trained, the belts or certifications I earned. If they were not high ranks, so what? I'd be stating clearly that I came up with *my* system on my own, and I'm not claiming to have legitimacy through a past I allude to but will not name. Sure, others would criticize. As you said, they'll do so anyway. At least I'd have been open about it.
> 
> But that's just me. Perhaps others don't feel that way.


 
I agree with you on one hand and also disagree with other aspects.  When you go to a doctor and he lists "Harvard" as where he got his degree, you know what their standards are etc. and would be impressed.  In the same token, if your instructor trained directly with Shimabuku or very closely, that would mean something as well.  But, now picture that you are training in the 50's and 60's when most people had never heard of karate, let alone what the different styles were, and add to that there were pretty much NO alphabet organizations overseeing things.  Would it make any difference to say that I obtained a blackbelt at "Joe's Karate Studio"?  with no longer anyway to check that information or evaluate what that means in the scope of things?

Going back to the doctor analogy, you know that they had a certain education.  But, ultimately, isn't it your doctor that you stay with because of what he can do and feel comfortable with?  CGM Dearman learned long ago that it was not important for what his instructors could do, it was important to what lessons he could help you with and educate you with.  Every style, school and organization has a different meaning for what a black belt means to them.  He has always chosen to be judged solely on what he can do and not what others may have done before him.

You may not agree with that approach, but it is how he feels.


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## punisher73

dancingalone said:


> Pretty standard stuff then in contrast to what was mentioned a few years ago about there being no free sparring.
> 
> There aren't many better drills than jiyu kumite to work on one's ability to hit a moving, adversarial target while being under duress yourself. Cardio-conditioning and general physical toughness are also qualities which are helped by regular free sparring.
> 
> IMO jiyu kumite isn't the most important part of karate training, but I would look carefully at a school that says they do not emphasize it to make sure that they build up the desirable characteristics jiyu kumite brings in other ways.


 
The stuff I have personally experienced and trained in with Sanchin-Ryu amazes me with what I hear esposed by others who may have studied a very short time in it.  I have heard MANY things that people have claimed about CGM Dearman to discredit him and many people who say that Sanchin-ryu does or doesn't do this, yet we do.


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## Sanchin-E

@Punisher, would you say that sanchin-ryu has similarities with american kenpo? Aside from not being nearly as specific with the self defense techniques?


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## punisher73

Sanchin-E said:


> @Punisher, would you say that sanchin-ryu has similarities with american kenpo? Aside from not being nearly as specific with the self defense techniques?


 
Yes, I have noticed some similarities in approach.  But, the more I have looked at arts and their history there is alot more in common with most of them than there is that seperate them.  I think their commonalities lie in the fact that both were born out of actual experience and not just tradition.

There is going to be alot of commonalities when it comes to what does and doesn't work in the street.


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## bigmoe

Hello to all hear is my undrerstanding. IT did start in michigan he did study in isshinryu could not make it to the rank of bb started one school then went down I-75 opened another and so on promoted someone to bb gave them part of the school took part of the profits and moved on.Sold his idea to school systems and made a lot of money.I dont think they are non profit. I had some one in my neighborhood that owned a school but got in trouble closed school moved to Texas to start another school. I know at that school they were a belt factory and the instructor was out for the buck,Also when i got out of the army i answered an add in the paper for bb teachers so i called and it was the system that you are talking about told me that they would teach me what i needed to know to run a school for them for about 25 hr that was back in 1996 that is why i question the style. I have always said one style is not better than another it depends on the instruction you get so if it doesnt seem right it probally not. I know my style is isshinryu wich i have been studying for 29 yrs but i have also taken three others styles and had good instruction in two of the three.


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## punisher73

bigmoe said:


> Hello to all hear is my undrerstanding. IT did start in michigan he did study in isshinryu could not make it to the rank of bb started one school then went down I-75 opened another and so on promoted someone to bb gave them part of the school took part of the profits and moved on.Sold his idea to school systems and made a lot of money.I dont think they are non profit. I had some one in my neighborhood that owned a school but got in trouble closed school moved to Texas to start another school. I know at that school they were a belt factory and the instructor was out for the buck,Also when i got out of the army i answered an add in the paper for bb teachers so i called and it was the system that you are talking about told me that they would teach me what i needed to know to run a school for them for about 25 hr that was back in 1996 that is why i question the style. I have always said one style is not better than another it depends on the instruction you get so if it doesnt seem right it probally not. I know my style is isshinryu wich i have been studying for 29 yrs but i have also taken three others styles and had good instruction in two of the three.


 
I highly doubt that this was the same system. They run no schools and have not "advertised" for instructors. Instructors are not paid for their time. I have been around from before 1996 and this was not the practice at that time, and has not been the practice ever since then. I have also spoken with instructors who have been there from the beginning and it was never that way. 

I do know from personal experience that there was a guy from New York claiming to be the "soke" of Sanchin-Ryu. I also know that there was contact made to cease and desist using the name. I was the person that brought this to their attention, so I know the other person to be fact and not rumor.  I do not know what his business practices were, but the time frame was about the same of him using the name.

Sanchin Systems/OSKA has always run as a non-profit organization. I have also heard the former chief instructor tell people that the reason he left was because CGM Dearman was making all of this money and was buying a sports car every year with the money. What's funny is that, the former CI was the one who was always buying sports cars with money he got (law settlement, retirement etc). When Sanchin-Ryu first started, all of it was paid out of CGM Dearman's pockets and they lived close to broke for most of those early years ( I know people who have spoken with the accountant that has been the same one all these years). Even now, he lives a modest lifestyle and only takes $1 for his salary as head of Sanchin Systems. He earns his money doing other things.


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## punisher73

I spoke with CGM Dearman to clear this up, long story short here are some facts in this matter to bigmoe's claim.

1) Robert Dearman* never* studied in Detroit.
2) He *never* received any Isshin-Ryu advancements/ranks/belts from anyone other than Alex Furda.
3) He received Purple, Brown, Sho-Dan and Ni-Dan from Alex, after being tested by him personally. ( I was incorrect when I stated San-Dan, that is my fault and mine alone)


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