# self defense and martail art longevity



## drummingman (Oct 20, 2006)

as i have been reading some of the threads here it has brought a very important question to my minid.that is,what is a style of self defese/martial art that is practical for real world survival that can be studied and practiced as a person gets older.meaning even into very old age such as the 80's and 90's? a style that will work on the ground as well as standing up.
i have seen a little bit of talk about people not being able to study harder styles as they get older and having to switch to a softer style such as tai chi.
another question i have is that with a lot of soft styles there seems to be a major focus on spiritual things that im not interested in.i say that because im a christian and i don't want to get involved in spiritual things that might conflict with my faith.i just don't want it to be an issue.
all that said i have been looking into studying japanese jujitsu and ed parkers american kenpo.how do these styles fair for a person as they age?
the thing is that i don't want to start a style right now at 30 years old that i will have to stop in the future because of getting old.
does anyone have any advice?
sorry if this is the wrong place to post this but i don't know where else that this thread would fit.
thanks


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## MA-Caver (Oct 20, 2006)

drummingman said:


> as i have been reading some of the threads here it has brought a very important question to my minid.that is,what is a style of self defese/martial art that is practical for real world survival that can be studied and practiced as a person gets older.meaning even into very old age such as the 80's and 90's? a style that will work on the ground as well as standing up.
> i have seen a little bit of talk about people not being able to study harder styles as they get older and having to switch to a softer style such as tai chi.
> another question i have is that with a lot of soft styles there seems to be a major focus on spiritual things that im not interested in.i say that because im a christian and i don't want to get involved in spiritual things that might conflict with my faith.i just don't want it to be an issue.
> all that said i have been looking into studying japanese jujitsu and ed parkers american kenpo.how do these styles fair for a person as they age?
> ...


Age really shouldn't be a factor if a person has dedicated themselves to a martial art (whatever style). Look at the founders of Aikido, Jujutsu, Judo   and EPAK for starters (Parker wasn't as old but he was in his late 50's and going strong before he died... of a heart attack). Then look at Yip-man and his son Yip-sing, both were still practicing and teaching their art (Wing Chun) at an advanced age. I had the privalege to go hands on with Yip-sing on learning a particular techinque and I'll tell ya right now, at 80+ years old that is one guy I would not want to seriously mess with; there was nothing wrong with that man's speed or strength. 
How well you keep yourself in shape and how well you avoid practices that'll bring on arthritis and other age wearing stuff (whatever!) will determine how long you can study that particular art. If you're young and go for a hard style, then stop for about 10-15 years then want to get back into MA... then it'll depend upon how you lived during that hiatus. Did nothing but a desk job 9-5 every day and the most strenuous activity on the weekend was mowing the yard with no other exercise ... then yeah you'd probably, MAYBE want to go to a softer art. But if you were the opposite or had a hard-physical job and went say Rock Climbing every other weekend and exercised reguarly then no reason is there for you NOT to get back into whatever hard-art you were doing before or a newer one. 
You make the determination on how "old" or how weak you'll become in your advanced years. The saying is very true, you're as old/young as you feel. Taking care of yourself and your body throughout your life is tantamount to the rest of it (marriage/family/career and so on). I've known guys 70 years old that beat a bunch of 20-30 somethings on a 4 mile-1500 foot elevation gain hike. Simply because he took care of himself.  
Again, it's not the art but the artist.


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## Jonathan Randall (Oct 20, 2006)

MA-Caver said:


> Age really shouldn't be a factor if a person has dedicated themselves to a martial art (whatever style). Look at the founders of Aikido, Jujutsu, Judo and EPAK for starters (Parker wasn't as old but he was in his late 50's and going strong before he died... in a plane accident). Then look at Yip-man and his son Yip-sing, both were still practicing and teaching their art (Wing Chun) at an advanced age. I had the privalege to go hands on with Yip-sing on learning a particular techinque and I'll tell ya right now, at 80+ years old that is one guy I would not want to seriously mess with; there was nothing wrong with that man's speed or strength.
> How well you keep yourself in shape and how well you avoid practices that'll bring on arthritis and other age wearing stuff (whatever!) will determine how long you can study that particular art. If you're young and go for a hard style, then stop for about 10-15 years then want to get back into MA... then it'll depend upon how you lived during that hiatus. Did nothing but a desk job 9-5 every day and the most strenuous activity on the weekend was mowing the yard with no other exercise ... then yeah you'd probably, MAYBE want to go to a softer art. But if you were the opposite or had a hard-physical job and went say Rock Climbing every other weekend and exercised reguarly then no reason is there for you NOT to get back into whatever hard-art you were doing before or a newer one.
> You make the determination on how "old" or how weak you'll become in your advanced years. The saying is very true, you're as old/young as you feel. Taking care of yourself and your body throughout your life is tantamount to the rest of it (marriage/family/career and so on). I've known guys 70 years old that beat a bunch of 20-30 somethings on a 4 mile-1500 foot elevation gain hike. Simply because he took care of himself.
> Again, it's not the art but the artist.


 
So true, as you age in the art, your techniques require far, far less physical strength and speed than they did when you were younger. Good post, Ralph, but I must correct you on one thing - EGM Parker died of a heart attack and not a plane crash. Still, up to the moment of his death, he could have taken a dozen of me - even if "we" rushed him Mr. Smith style ("Matrix").


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## MA-Caver (Oct 20, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:


> So true, as you age in the art, your techniques require far, far less physical strength and speed than they did when you were younger. Good post, Ralph, but I must correct you on one thing - EGM Parker died of a heart attack and not a plane crash. Still, up to the moment of his death, he could have taken a dozen of me - even if "we" rushed him Mr. Smith style ("Matrix").


Thanks Jon, I stand corrected :asian: and edited... :uhyeah:


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## JasonASmith (Oct 20, 2006)

My Sensei is in his 60's, and moves like a man in his 40's...We are definitely studying a "hard" style of Karate...
Wasn't Funakoshi in his 90's when he died? From what I've read, he was still going strong until the end...


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## Mustafa (Oct 20, 2006)

Good point. 
Considering me my physical training (which i neglect - That is the theory).

I have bad balance, so this forced me to adjust my style by lowering my body. Which by, i get more power of course, but it is going to end shortly.

That is better than nothing for me. Because otherwise i dont get anything. However, if i had better balance. I would not let go the later years. And just make sure i can attain the same level of skill if otherwise.

It is a "quick-path" i say if one does to lower ones body. But That can be compensated by alot of practise i say.

This conflict is present if you wish to train. Because you cant get it otherwise. As a matter of fact, the problem does not exist if you accept to go by the rules. To go by the rules i mean "The rules", not our rules.


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## Drac (Oct 20, 2006)

MA-Caver said:


> Age really shouldn't be a factor if a person has dedicated themselves to a martial art (whatever style)


 
True..One just needs to look at O Sensei ,tossing guys around mats with ease at his advance age..


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## Mustafa (Oct 20, 2006)

Drac said:


> True..One just needs to look at O Sensei ,tossing guys around mats with ease at his advance age..


It is still a "quick-path", where the chances are less but not eliminated.
However, that does not mean "he hit the target by the first attempt". (Me personally, i still need to practise more in order.)


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

I have not witnessed a martial art that could not be practiced into your advanced years.  However having said that you may have to modify your training as you age.  Certainly as you get older you will not want to be the one getting thrown around as much. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Still you can defintely continue to practice.  Some arts are easier on the body than others.  Really what is most important to you is finding something that you like and want to do.  Good luck.


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## Drac (Oct 20, 2006)

Mustafa said:


> It is still a "quick-path", where the chances are less but not eliminated


 
Please expand on your answer because you lost me




			
				mustafa said:
			
		

> However, that does not mean "he hit the target by the first attempt".


 
ANYBODY who attempted to grab O Sensei got tossed REGARDLESS of size or age...


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## Mustafa (Oct 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I have not witnessed a martial art that could not be practiced into your advanced years. However having said that you may have to modify your training as you age. Certainly as you get older you will not want to be the one getting thrown around as much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. And you misunderstood me.

Given that i have bad balance.
I mean i will go with the first version, and will not change it if the the status of my balance remains the same.

But if that status changes ((anythign can happen during my current practise (Much practise compensates that i mean - which i dont currently have.))
I am thinking because i am still growing up, maybe my body is "rebuilding" my balance (then it wouldnt be a problem).
(And i understand that i will have to train all over again then, but that will not take a long time because of the previous experience, of the previous "adjustment")


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## exile (Oct 20, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> My Sensei is in his 60's, and moves like a man in his 40's...We are definitely studying a "hard" style of Karate...
> Wasn't Funakoshi in his 90's when he died? From what I've read, he was still going strong until the end...



Jason's post is a good illustration of the possibilities... but there's a catch. When you talk about aging, you have to realize that this isn't something totally beyond your control.  This is just my own take on things, based on my own experience, but it might be relevant...

I'm going to be 60 my next birthday, but I've done heavy weightlifting on a regular basis for the past ten years, dynamic stetching a la Kurz every day, balance exercises on a pretty much daily basis, interval aerobics a few times a week, and tend to go for the lower end of the calorie intake regime for my weight and height. The result is that I'm way stronger than I was in my twenties and probably better coordinated, though probably not quite as quick in a sprint. This feeds directly back into my TKD training, which is very hard-style (I wish it were a bit more flowing a la kenpo, but that's a different issue...) It was deliberate choice that I made in my late 40s, looking at other people my age who clearly were preparing to accept a much lower level of mobility and physical capability than they had enjoyed in their younger days just by virtue of being, well, _young_. 

My point is just that it's not enough to shop around for a MA which is going to serve you well into old age. You have to do your part, and that means keeping your body as biologically efficient and powerful as possible. And that means working out a physical training program for yourself which may at times be a bit unpleasant. Because to in order to work, it has to challenge you physically enough to trigger the changes in your physiology that you want---more muscle, greater cardiovascular capacity, lower blood pressure, and so on---so you have to be willing to work in a zone of considerable discomfort at times.  If you do that, though, you can---as previous posters have already pointed out---choose just about any MA that appeals to you and do it happily for a long, long time.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

Mustafa said:


> Thanks. And you misunderstood me.
> 
> Given that i have bad balance.
> I mean i will go with the first version, and will not change it if the the status of my balance remains the same.
> ...


 
I was not addressing your response but the origional poster!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

exile said:


> Jason's post is a good illustration of the possibilities... but there's a catch. When you talk about aging, you have to realize that this isn't something totally beyond your control. This is just my own take on things, based on my own experience, but it might be relevant...
> 
> I'm going to be 60 my next birthday, but I've done heavy weightlifting on a regular basis for the past ten years, dynamic stetching a la Kurz every day, balance exercises on a pretty much daily basis, interval aerobics a few times a week, and tend to go for the lower end of the calorie intake regime for my weight and height. The result is that I'm way stronger than I was in my twenties and probably better coordinated, though probably not quite as quick in a sprint. This feeds directly back into my TKD training, which is very hard-style (I wish it were a bit more flowing a la kenpo, but that's a different issue...) It was deliberate choice that I made in my late 40s, looking at other people my age who clearly were preparing to accept a much lower level of mobility and physical capability than they had enjoyed in their younger days just by virtue of being, well, _young_.
> 
> My point is just that it's not enough to shop around for a MA which is going to serve you well into old age. You have to do your part, and that means keeping your body as biologically efficient and powerful as possible. And that means working out a physical training program for yourself which may at times be a bit unpleasant. Because to in order to work, it has to challenge you physically enough to trigger the changes in your physiology that you want---more muscle, greater cardiovascular capacity, lower blood pressure, and so on---so you have to be willing to work in a zone of considerable discomfort at times. If you do that, though, you can---as previous posters have already pointed out---choose just about any MA that appeals to you and do it happily for a long, long time.


 
Nice post!


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## Mustafa (Oct 20, 2006)

Drac said:


> Please expand on your answer because you lost me


 I mean it is not either sensei, or not sensei.
There there are different levels like belts.




> ANYBODY who attempted to grab O Sensei got tossed REGARDLESS of size or age...


Sensei = dojo
So, he is supposed to because they are students.
If he goes outside the dojo, who know what he will encounter?
The thing is, one cannot make one rules for all the senseis. 
Because then the fools of them would mess it up, while the higher ranks pays the consequences. (this perspective)


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## Mustafa (Oct 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I was not addressing your response but the origional poster!


Right sorry.
But are we sniping now?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

How could you consider that a snipe?  You addressed me and I told you that I was addressing the origional poster of the thread.


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## Mustafa (Oct 20, 2006)

About me bad balance. 
I have bad balance because of medical reasons. And that makes most of the other things difficult for me. It is like 1kg for you, is 10kg for me.


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## exile (Oct 20, 2006)

Mustafa said:


> Right sorry.
> But are we sniping now?



Mustafa---reread what Bob wrote about sniping in the new infractions thread. Has anyone on the thread we're in now said _anything_ to you that corresonds to a personal knock? Brian was simply clarifying what he was doing. I'm curious to know exactly why you think that this would qualify as sniping.


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## Mustafa (Oct 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> How could you consider that a snipe? You addressed me and I told you that I was addressing the origional poster of the thread.


Because you dont have to tell me that you are not sniping.
You have to show me that you are not sniping.

As a matter of fact, it is a strange thing if this thread cannot be called sniping. (like me other posts was considered sniping?)


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## Bigshadow (Oct 20, 2006)

I believe it was all a misunderstanding.


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## Drac (Oct 20, 2006)

Have you ever seen a LIVE Aikido demo..It's almost impossble to fake, there are no gentle throws.I f his students attempted to take it easy on him he would have been VERY upset..As far as on the streets I wouldn't grab one of these older Master for anything...
Have you ever seen Willian DeThouras ( Uncle Bill) of the Kun-Taw-Silat dicipline??? He looks like any senior citizen, he is FAST and HITS HARD...


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## exile (Oct 20, 2006)

Mustafa said:


> Because you dont have to tell me that you are not sniping.
> You have to show me that you are not sniping.
> 
> As a matter of fact, it is a strange thing if this thread cannot be called sniping. (like me other posts was considered sniping?)



I can only speak for myself, but I'm not following you at all here. Sniping involves a subtle but real personal attack. I don't see anything at all personal in any of the posts on this thread. So why would you then call this thread `sniping'?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

Mustafa said:


> Because you dont have to tell me that you are not sniping.
> You have to show me that you are not sniping.
> 
> As a matter of fact, it is a strange thing if this thread cannot be called sniping. (like me other posts was considered sniping?)


 
My friend I have no idea where you are going with this.  I am on this thread to talk about self defense and martial art longevity.  Let us return to the threads purpose and stay on the topic.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 20, 2006)

Drac said:


> Have you ever seen a LIVE Aikido demo..It's almost impossble to fake, there are no gentle throws.I f his students attempted to take it easy on him he would have been VERY upset..As far as on the streets I wouldn't grab one of these older Master for anything...
> Have you ever seen Willian DeThouras ( Uncle Bill) of the Kun-Taw-Silat dicipline??? He looks like any senior citizen, he is FAST and HITS HARD...



I agree!  I wouldn't want to grab one of them either.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

Drac said:


> Have you ever seen a LIVE Aikido demo..It's almost impossble to fake, there are no gentle throws.I f his students attempted to take it easy on him he would have been VERY upset..As far as on the streets I wouldn't grab one of these older Master for anything...
> Have you ever seen Willian DeThouras ( Uncle Bill) of the Kun-Taw-Silat dicipline??? He looks like any senior citizen, he is FAST and HITS HARD...


 
Uncle Bill or Granpa Bill as they are calling him now is incredible!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> I agree! I wouldn't want to grab one of them either.


 

That would be a big mistake.  Imagine laying your hands on Hatsumi Soke.  He would tie you up in a pretzel and he is almost 75!


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## Mustafa (Oct 20, 2006)

exile said:


> Mustafa---reread what Bob wrote about sniping in the new infractions thread. Has anyone on the thread we're in now said _anything_ to you that corresonds to a personal knock? Brian was simply clarifying what he was doing. I'm curious to know exactly why you think that this would qualify as sniping.


Right. I admit that i indulged.

I think, how can it not be considered as that?
And his reply matched my post more that the first post. So i assumed he was saying something to me.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> That would be a big mistake.  Imagine laying your hands on Hatsumi Soke.  He would tie you up in a pretzel and he is almost 75!



I *think* I wouldn't mind being his uke once, maybe more if I didn't get destroyed.   but the thought scares the poop out of me!


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## Drac (Oct 20, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> I *think* I wouldn't mind being his uke once, maybe more if I didn't get destroyed.  but the thought scares the poop out of me!


 
Father Greek and I trained with "Uncle Bill" at a seminar in Denver..Father Greek asked to recieve a counter strike to a technique..He said it was like getting hit with a baseball bat...He got a with a huge black and blue mark that hurt...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

I have had the opportunity to witness some great martial artists as they advanced into their sixties and beyond. (by the way sixty is really young according to me and my 81 year old student)  What struck me the most with all of them is that they practiced.  They did not just teach but they actually *practiced* what they were teaching regularly.  That is how they remained young, supple and quick with their technique.  Whether you practice aikido, juijitsu, BJJ, Budo Taijutsu, Modern Arnis, Krav Maga, IRT, Hapkido, etc.  If you are willing to train and modify it a bit as you age then you can practice for the rest of your life.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

Drac said:


> Father Greek and I trained with "Uncle Bill" at a seminar in Denver..Father Greek asked to recieve a counter strike to a technique..He said it was like getting hit with a baseball bat...I


 
I have to admit that Uncle Bill is just awesome.  A lifetime of training will definately keep you young.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Whether you practice aikido, juijitsu, BJJ, Budo Taijutsu, Modern Arnis, Krav Maga, IRT, Hapkido, etc.  If you are willing to train and modify it a bit as you age then you can practice for the rest of your life.



I absolutely agree!  I firmly believe that.


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## Mustafa (Oct 20, 2006)

exile said:


> I can only speak for myself, but I'm not following you at all here. Sniping involves a subtle but real personal attack. I don't see anything at all personal in any of the posts on this thread. So why would you then call this thread `sniping'?


A sniper means a person as a target i understand.
If you dont allow me to speak, that doesnt mean i have nothing to say. Even your retorical abilites are better than mine, that doesnt mean your purpouse is better.


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## Drac (Oct 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I have to admit that Uncle Bill is just awesome. A lifetime of training will definately keep you young.


 
Next time Father Greek logs onto the Last Person ask him about it...


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## Brother John (Oct 20, 2006)

I think that if a martial artist applies his/her mind and body to his/her art...that as they age and age takes the toll that it commonly does, they will adapt. Their motion will fit their ability and their tactics will follow.
Efficiency will need to be maximized and they will need to learn to do the most by using the least amount of action. This comes through experience and internalizing ones art...and it's not specific to any one style or type of style really. It has more to do with divesting of the superfluities.... cutting off the non-essentials...
who has time for those anyway?


Your Brother
john


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## Bigshadow (Oct 20, 2006)

Nobody was sniping.  Can we stop talking about it?


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## Mustafa (Oct 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> That would be a big mistake. Imagine laying your hands on Hatsumi Soke. He would tie you up in a pretzel and he is almost 75!


That depends on who we are talking about.
"Because then the fools of them would mess it up, while the higher ranks pays the consequences. (this perspective)"
Other senseis should not be connected to him, because he is supposed to be the best example for ninjutsu. And we dont want to ruin that

Now, i have never actually trained ninjutsu, but i think it is a good art.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

Drac said:


> Next time Father Greek logs onto the Last Person ask him about it...


 
I will do that Drac!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

Brother John said:


> I think that if a martial artist applies his/her mind and body to his/her art...that as they age and age takes the toll that it commonly does, they will adapt. Their motion will fit their ability and their tactics will follow.
> Efficiency will need to be maximized and they will need to learn to do the most by using the least amount of action. This comes through experience and internalizing ones art...and it's not specific to any one style or type of style really. It has more to do with divesting of the superfluities.... cutting off the non-essentials...
> who has time for those anyway?
> 
> ...


 
John that is a really good point that as you age and your technique gets better you whittle away at those non essential movements.  You see this specifically in all of the great teachers and artists.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 20, 2006)

Mustafa said:


> "Because then the fools of them would mess it up, while the higher ranks pays the consequences. (this perspective)"
> Other senseis should not be connected to him, because he is supposed to be the best example for ninjutsu. And we dont want to ruin that




I don't understand... Please explain more?


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## Mustafa (Oct 20, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> I don't understand... Please explain more?


I am not sure how to explain better.
But, it is like the idea of generalizing.


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## exile (Oct 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> (by the way sixty is really young according to me and my 81 year old student)



Music to my ears, BVC! 

And really, really true (at least, I fervently hope so...)


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

exile said:


> Music to my ears, BVC!
> 
> And really, really true (at least, I fervently hope so...)


 
It is absolutely true!


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## Bigshadow (Oct 20, 2006)

Mustafa said:


> I am not sure how to explain better.
> But, it is like the idea of generalizing.



Oh, OK.  I understand.


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## Monadnock (Oct 20, 2006)

drummingman said:


> as i have been reading some of the threads here it has brought a very important question to my minid.that is,*what is a style of self defese/martial art that is practical for real world survival that can be studied and practiced as a person gets older*.meaning even into very old age such as the 80's and 90's? *a style that will work on the ground as well as standing up*.
> i have seen a little bit of talk about people not being able to study harder styles as they get older and having to switch to a softer style such as tai chi.
> another question i have is that with a lot of soft styles there seems to be a major focus on spiritual things that im not interested in.i say that because im a christian and *i don't want to get involved in spiritual things that might conflict with my faith.i just don't want it to be an issue.*
> *all that said i have been looking into studying japanese jujitsu and ed parkers american kenpo*.how do these styles fair for a person as they age?
> ...


 
This seems to be a 3-part question, and a very good one at that.

A practical art for real world survival would be one that takes into account modern combative techniques. Streetfighting is different than battlefield fighting. I assume you are interested in self-defense rather than joining an army. Just as old traditional schools taught battlefield proven techniques, a true self-defense school would be teaching proven street-effective techniques. I don't know of too many. The brawling/dojo busting seems to be a thing of the past.

A lot of styles do work on the ground. Anyone on this board that does ground-fighting will gladly tell you so. Its fad hit a peak a few years ago but it still remains popular.

Spirituality differes from school to school. But you mentioned Japanese Ju Jutsu. Most Japanese dojo have an underlying Shinto theme but it usually is only recognized at the start and end of class, and maybe inbetween (such as not pointing swords towards the kamidana). You also mention Parker Kenpo, which does not recognize any specific religion in class (for the most part), but if you read Parker's books, you'll note he was spiritual, and a Christian. Do a little reading on Shinto and you might not have a lot of conflict with it.

My .02

Mike


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 20, 2006)

MA-Caver said:


> Age really shouldn't be a factor if a person has dedicated themselves to a martial art (whatever style). Look at the founders of Aikido, Jujutsu, Judo and EPAK for starters (Parker wasn't as old but he was in his late 50's and going strong before he died... of a heart attack). Then look at Yip-man and his son Yip-sing, both were still practicing and teaching their art (Wing Chun) at an advanced age. I had the privalege to go hands on with Yip-sing on learning a particular techinque and I'll tell ya right now, at 80+ years old that is one guy I would not want to seriously mess with; there was nothing wrong with that man's speed or strength.
> How well you keep yourself in shape and how well you avoid practices that'll bring on arthritis and other age wearing stuff (whatever!) will determine how long you can study that particular art. If you're young and go for a hard style, then stop for about 10-15 years then want to get back into MA... then it'll depend upon how you lived during that hiatus. Did nothing but a desk job 9-5 every day and the most strenuous activity on the weekend was mowing the yard with no other exercise ... then yeah you'd probably, MAYBE want to go to a softer art. But if you were the opposite or had a hard-physical job and went say Rock Climbing every other weekend and exercised reguarly then no reason is there for you NOT to get back into whatever hard-art you were doing before or a newer one.
> You make the determination on how "old" or how weak you'll become in your advanced years. The saying is very true, you're as old/young as you feel. Taking care of yourself and your body throughout your life is tantamount to the rest of it (marriage/family/career and so on). I've known guys 70 years old that beat a bunch of 20-30 somethings on a 4 mile-1500 foot elevation gain hike. Simply because he took care of himself.
> Again, it's not the art but the artist.


Age does count and regardless of how you take care of yourself age will take its toll. 70 year olds can be very fit but that is a matter of both exercise and genetics. Even the most fit 70 year old heals slower  than 20 year olds and deconditions faster. That said as you age even people studying hard arts get more efficient and effective at redirecting attackers. Mr. Parker was remarkable at the end of his career but he was no longer the fit young man he had been in the '50s, instead he had learned to be more efficient as a martial artist. His body mechanics in the '80s are far superior to the tapes from the early '60's. I'm biased but I believe that Parker style Kenpo is an excellent art for both the young and the old because of its mixture of hard and soft.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Drac (Oct 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> That would be a big mistake. Imagine laying your hands on Hatsumi Soke. He would tie you up in a pretzel and he is almost 75!


 
I have this fantasy of swearing in Uncle Bill, Grandmaster Pellegrini and Hatumi Soke has part time cops and placing them undercover..Imagine the surprize of some gang-banger who grab one of these skinny older men thinking they are an easy target...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

Drac said:


> I have this fantasy of swearing in Uncle Bill, Grandmaster Pellegrini and Hatumi Soke has part time cops and placing them undercover..Imagine the surprize of some gang-banger who grab one of these skinny older men thinking they are an easy target...


 
They certainly would be in for a surprise!  Thinking here is a little old man that I can mess with and next thing you know.... whamo ..... down to the ground in pain.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 20, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:


> Age does count and regardless of how you take care of yourself age will take its toll. 70 year olds can be very fit but that is a matter of both exercise and genetics. Even the most fit 70 year old heals slower  than 20 year olds and deconditions faster. That said as you age even people studying hard arts get more efficient and effective at redirecting attackers. Mr. Parker was remarkable at the end of his career but he was no longer the fit young man he had been in the '50s, instead he had learned to be more efficient as a martial artist. His body mechanics in the '80s are far superior to the tapes from the early '60's. I'm biased but I believe that Parker style Kenpo is an excellent art for both the young and the old because of its mixture of hard and soft.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Jeff



Jeff, having been a (practice) uke for a (up to her) 2nd Brown EPAK I won't argue there about the fact that the art is good for both young and old, after analyzing the moves while they're being practised on me  . Nor will I argue on genetics and that some people will just whither away regardless of how hard they trained/worked out whilst they were young. But the ideal still remains that they will _still_ be far more effective in a (real-life) defense situation than someone who did nothing to excercise their bodies (and mind/spirits)... beyond their thumbs with the television remotes. The great masters the others spoke about are clear representatives of that. 
True, that muscles shrink and bones become brittle in advanced years. But as you said and as Brian mentioned: 


			
				Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> <snip> that as you age and your technique gets better you whittle away at those _non essential_ movements. You see this specifically in all of the great teachers and artists.


I've done this myself. I've done away with most of the TKD that I learned in my younger years because, mainly I haven't practised with it as much as I should've but for other reasons as well... as I found most of my (potential) combative quarters to be closed in and roundhouses with my foot aren't going to work out as effeciently as a round house with my fist. Of course had I _stayed_ with it (TKD) I'd be talking differently now.
I'm rapidly approaching 45 and I must say that I'm in the best shape of my life due to my activities. Right now I'm in transit but will probably, very likely enter a dojo and resume my studies... this time around as a formal student.


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## exile (Oct 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It is absolutely true!



OK, I hear ya! :asian:


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## Rook (Oct 20, 2006)

Most styles should still work as you get older, although adjustments will have to be made on a personal basis.  

Jack Dempsey KOed two men while sitting down in a taxi with one punch a piece when he was in his 80s - a fact attested to by multiple witnesses, and admitted to in court no less by the would-be robbers themselves.


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## drummingman (Oct 20, 2006)

wow.thanks all for the great responses!
im really a newbe when it comes to the martial arts so i really appreciate the the info and advice.


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## Andy Moynihan (Oct 20, 2006)

Rook said:


> Most styles should still work as you get older, although adjustments will have to be made on a personal basis.
> 
> Jack Dempsey KOed two men while sitting down in a taxi with one punch a piece when he was in his 80s - a fact attested to by multiple witnesses, and admitted to in court no less by the would-be robbers themselves.


 
Was it his 70s or 80s? that's the one conflicting part i've heard, the rest is attested to. Is his exact age at the time of the incident known?


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## Phoenix44 (Nov 5, 2006)

*Tai Chi*


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 5, 2006)

Wing Chun too. 

The Ip boys are no spring chickens and I wouldn't want to tangle with them.

I also saw an 80-year-old Xingyi master that just scared me by looking at me. 

And I saw 2 guys doing some of the best Long fist I have seen and by the looks of them they were in their late 80s to early 90s.


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## Master Panto (Nov 6, 2006)

drummingman said:


> as i have been reading some of the threads here it has brought a very important question to my minid.that is,what is a style of self defese/martial art that is practical for real world survival that can be studied and practiced as a person gets older.meaning even into very old age such as the 80's and 90's? a style that will work on the ground as well as standing up.
> i have seen a little bit of talk about people not being able to study harder styles as they get older and having to switch to a softer style such as tai chi.
> another question i have is that with a lot of soft styles there seems to be a major focus on spiritual things that im not interested in.i say that because im a christian and i don't want to get involved in spiritual things that might conflict with my faith.i just don't want it to be an issue.
> all that said i have been looking into studying japanese jujitsu and ed parkers american kenpo.how do these styles fair for a person as they age?
> ...


 
:asian:..
Gud day to you all Buddy,

    I am Master Panto from Cebu Philippines..I practice self defense in the art of eskrima..I personally built a club which is known as "Filmocan" this is a club of group of individuals coming from different folks of life but having thesame purpose which is to preserve and innovate the art of Eskrima..did you know san Miguel Eskrima?...we are ones disciples of the leaders of the said organization..In our club we probably have our own style and technique in the field of eskrima..not to mention that we practice unique type of self defense art....if you are much likely interested in the club, feel free send me private message and I am willing to attend all the questions you have in mind about eskrima..
      Hope to hear you soon......

God Bless...

Master Panto


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