# Ninja Mask???



## allenjp

Does anyone know if ninjas ever actually used the full head coverings we see in all the movies? I know that there is no evidence they wore black, but is the basic shinobi shozoku is anything like what they actually wore? I've never seen any pictures of Hatsumi wearing anything covering his face like that.


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## Chris Parker

Hi,

As I understand it, the "classic ninja costume", or shinobi shozoku, also called ninniku yoroi in some cases, is not really anything to do with historical ninja of fuedal Japan. The costume originated in the 18th Century from the costumes worn by the puppeteers of the Kabuki theatre... the idea that the puppeteers were accepted by the audience as "invisible" (the same way in the West we accept that the strings on a marrionette are "invisible"), and the same basic costume was slightly altered (swords added etc) to a more Warrior type of styling, and used for Ninja characters. Prior to that, the ninja would be portrayed in a similar fashion to other warriors (Samurai, Ronin).

That said, there have been some scroll documentation showing old methods of tying a scarf or cloth around your head and face, ending in a fashion not dissimilar to the typical hood/mask. I have seen pictures of Hatsumi Sensei wearing this style of wrapped headgear, and Manaka Sensei shows it in his video/DVD series on Togakure Ryu Ninja Biken (at least).

What needs to be realised is that Ninjutsu was part of an illegal counter-culture... and one of the worst/stupidest things you could do was to be caught wearing an outfit that clearly identified you as part of that illegal movement, particularly if you were sneaking in somewhere you shouldn't be! It's kind of the equivelent of walking into a police station and trying to rob someone there...


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## kwaichang

Indeed, dark colors and facial covering for moving around at night minimizes your "sight picture" to others.  The shinobi shozoku just looks neat.


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## allenjp

Yeah, what I had read somewhere is that the shinobi shozoku was only used for secret night missions in which obviously, if you were seen you would not want anyone to be able to recognize or identify you. I don't remember where I read that, but it also said that the disguises (samurai, gardener, maid, peasant etc.) would of course be their normal everyday garb because during the day wearing a suit like that was a good way to get found out and killed. It's just that I haven't had a chance to read any authentic material on this subject, and with the amount of misinformation and just plain BS that floats around on this subject I thought I might ask people that might really know...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Chris Parker said:


> What needs to be realised is that Ninjutsu was part of an illegal counter-culture... and one of the worst/stupidest things you could do was to be caught wearing an outfit that clearly identified you as part of that illegal movement, particularly if you were sneaking in somewhere you shouldn't be! It's kind of the equivelent of walking into a police station and trying to rob someone there...


 
Every now and then when I'm out walking in the streets, I get this really creepy feeling that I'm following someone - but I'm never really sure whom it is. So just to stay on the safe side, I tend to pick someone I'm absolutely sure that it can't be, and then I follow him instead.

Cue heretic888.


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## Kreth

Yeah, there's some gems on the internet. I remember stumbling across a rather interesting article several years ago. Apparently when fleeing from samurai, the ninja would often urinate into his fundoshi (while on the run ), then strip it off and swing it over a wall. Apparently *real* ninja had adhesive pee, because it would stick in place and allow the crafty ninja to scale the wall and escape. :roflmao:

Ah, found the link. The amazing fundoshi escape is towards the bottom...


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## Obi Wan Shinobi

Go to www.winjutsu.com and you can see Hatsumi-Sensei on the homepage wearing a mask.


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## kwaichang

Yep, but that's not half as good as seeing him in a western shirt, string tie and a ten gallon hat!


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## thardey

Somewhere the idea was floated that having some cloth covering your mouth would dampen the sound of your breathing. 

It wasn't really linked to nijutsu, it could be a bandana, scarf, or whatever. It _seemed_ to me to work, but the sound of my own breathing is distorted to my ears anyway, so I couldn't really tell how much difference it made. I was thinking of using this for archery hunting, for those times when you're really close. 

Has anybody else heard of this?


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## allenjp

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Every now and then when I'm out walking in the streets, I get this really creepy feeling that I'm following someone - but I'm never really sure whom it is. So just to stay on the safe side, I tend to pick someone I'm absolutely sure that it can't be, and then I follow him instead.
> 
> Cue heretic888.


 
WTF???


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## allenjp

thardey said:


> Somewhere the idea was floated that having some cloth covering your mouth would dampen the sound of your breathing.
> 
> It wasn't really linked to nijutsu, it could be a bandana, scarf, or whatever. It _seemed_ to me to work, but the sound of my own breathing is distorted to my ears anyway, so I couldn't really tell how much difference it made. I was thinking of using this for archery hunting, for those times when you're really close.
> 
> Has anybody else heard of this?


 
Never heard of it, but I guess it might work. The most logical thing it would be used for is to hide identity, kinda like bank robbers & ski masks or panty hose...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

allenjp said:


> WTF???


 
Right, you're new to this. Every time someone posts complete BS or anything that defies my sense of logic, I pull off one of my absurdist routines in an effort to calm my nerves and then proceed to calling in support from our resident history buff, heretic888.


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## allenjp

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Right, you're new to this. Every time someone posts complete BS or anything that defies my sense of logic, I pull off one of my absurdist routines in an effort to calm my nerves and then proceed to calling in support from our resident history buff, heretic888.


 
Right...got it. In that case I guess I'll go hop on my pink three headed pony and ride off to never never land...


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## thardey

allenjp said:


> Never heard of it, but I guess it might work. The most logical thing it would be used for is to hide identity, kinda like bank robbers & ski masks or panty hose...



Just a tip for hiding in general (again, I _do not study nijustu_, so this isn't trying to accurate to that type of question), that I'd heard from snipers, is that the profile of the head and shoulders is one of the most quickly recognized patterns for humans. We are programmed from birth to recognize that shape, and to lock on to it. 

Some of the ways that I've seen "ninja headwear" seem to be effective at turning that shape into a generic triangle. It's a trick I use when playing paintball in the woods. It buys me a couple of extra seconds before recognition.

Another trick that the military teaches is that the following pattern:

  or :-I 

Is also almost instantly recognizable. Face paint is applied specifically to disguise that pattern. Of course, if all you have to see is:

II:III

Then you might not pick it up as fast.

But again, this is _modern Military thinking_, not traditional Ninjutsu, per se.

I don't know if the Identity issue is really that big of a deal. It would be more useful to not be recognized as a human in the first place.


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## Andy Moynihan

Well it's the same thing as all this hype over what the "Ninja-To" is supposed to have been: What ninja with Brain One in their head would risk being caught in possession of a weapon that so blatantly announces that it is a "ninja weapon"?


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## kwaichang

1.  The ninja-to was the shape it was because ninja didn't have the money for the curved sword and even if they did, it was reserved for Samurai.  The straight blade could be concealed easier also.

2.  Covering of the mouth is used in hunting around here.  It does "break the shape" of a human head and also does muffle the breath according to friends who hunt.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Andy Moynihan said:


> Well it's the same thing as all this hype over what the "Ninja-To" is supposed to have been: What ninja with Brain One in their head would risk being caught in possession of a weapon that so blatantly announces that it is a "ninja weapon"?


 
No one'll know it's a shinobigatana until you unsheathe it.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

kwaichang said:


> 1. The ninja-to was the shape it was because ninja didn't have the money for the curved sword and even if they did, it was reserved for Samurai. The straight blade could be concealed easier also.


 
It's like when you're out shopping, and they walk up to you and ask if you need help with anything, and you're like, "yeah, I'd like a gender change please". Or when you're at McDonald's ordering a menu and they ask you if you're going to eat there, and you're like, "nah, now that you mention it, I think I'll head to Burger King instead".

Cue heretic888(!).


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## Bigshadow

allenjp said:


> Right...got it. In that case I guess I'll go hop on my pink three headed pony and ride off to *never never land*...



You do know there is big difference between *never never land* and *never land*, right?


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## Sukerkin

*Kwai*, the fantasy history of the Ninja as promulgated during the 20th and 21st centuries has very little to do with reality and a lot to do with theatre and cinema.

It's ground that has been covered many times, particulary the non-existence in history of the Ninja-to.  A search here or at SFI will buy you more research material than you could ever wish for.

Quick precis - the ninja-to is a modern-era cinematic prop.  There were straight swords in Japan in times of antiquity, prior to the development of what we now recognise as the katana but these were *not* what is popularly conceived as the Sword of the Ninja.


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## kwaichang

ahhh, the voice of (?) which disputes the Japanese governments authentication of Hatsumi's scrolls of lineage; the roll of ninjas guarding leaders of provinces and later on their castles.  
We're not talking Tom Cruise in M.I. here.


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## Andy Moynihan

Sukerkin said:


> *Kwai*, the fantasy history of the Ninja as promulgated during the 20th and 21st centuries has very little to do with reality and a lot to do with theatre and cinema.
> 
> It's ground that has been covered many times, particulary the non-existence in history of the Ninja-to. A search here or at SFI will buy you more research material than you could ever wish for.
> 
> Quick precis - the ninja-to is a modern-era cinematic prop. There were straight swords in Japan in times of antiquity, prior to the development of what we now recognise as the katana but these were *not* what is popularly conceived as the Sword of the Ninja.


 

I don't doubt that ninja had specialized swords to suit their purpose, I just don't buy that what's sold in magazines as the "ninja-to" (TM, reserved) was it.

Cryozombie PM'd me concerning a sword patterned after a known Togakure-Ryu pattern that I'm very interested to see as to whether it matches the description someone gave me concerning a ninja's sword which to date has been the only explanation that has made any sense to me( The description I got was katana-size handle, katana-size scabbard, wakizashi size blade, the idea told to me was that this could cause a samurai to misjudge the time it would take the ninja to draw his sword so that if he was fooled into thinking he was getting into a straight-up "sword duel" that by the time he got to drawing his katana he was already at a speed disadvantage. This seems to work toward a ninja's ostensible purpose of misdirection in combat, so it makes sense to me.

Of course, this being the ninjutsu board, if this is incorrect, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will correct me. Fun topic either way.


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## Andy Moynihan

Returning to the original topic:

I don't doubt that something along the lines of the stereotypical shinobi-shozoku existed, certainly clandestine missions would necessarily require either a civilian disguise or dark, nonreflective clothing, and in the case of needing the dark, nonreflective clothing you'd want your head/face covered too, because even a darker-skinned face will reflect moonlight at night( if it didn't we wouldn't still use camouflage cream on or faces to this day).

But as far as they all being the one, Hollywood pattern? No.


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## Kreth

You're absolutely correct, Andy. The traditional mask was formed by intricately wrapping the head with an obi caked with the grime accumulated from years of hard training. From what I understand it also kept the flies off...



:uhyeah:


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## Andy Moynihan

Kreth said:


> You're absolutely correct, Andy. The traditional mask was formed by intricately wrapping the head with an obi caked with the grime accumulated from years of hard training. From what I understand it also kept the flies off...
> 
> 
> 
> :uhyeah:


 

I would imagine something like that would bring the flies *on*.....


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## Kreth

Andy Moynihan said:


> I would imagine something like that would bring the flies *on*.....


You underestimate the power of the unwashed obi... :lol:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

kwaichang said:


> ahhh, the voice of (?) which disputes the Japanese governments authentication of Hatsumi's scrolls of lineage;


 
I highly doubt that the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai/Kyokai has anything to do with the Japanese goverment as such. Besides, that has nothing to do with the fact that you've got your own facts mixed up.


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## exile

*Moderator Note* 
Please, keep the conversation polite, respectful and on-topic.

-Bob Levine
-MT Moderator-


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## allenjp

Bigshadow said:


> You do know there is big difference between *never never land* and *never land*, right?


 
Yeah, never never land is twice as big, right?


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## allenjp

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> It's like when you're out shopping, and they walk up to you and ask if you need help with anything, and you're like, "yeah, I'd like a gender change please". Or when you're at McDonald's ordering a menu and they ask you if you're going to eat there, and you're like, "nah, now that you mention it, I think I'll head to Burger King instead".
> 
> Cue heretic888(!).


 
Or like when you're walking down the street, and someone asks you if you have a dollar, and when you say no they say "well in that case here...take mine."

Cumbayah heretic888


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## allenjp

If you follow the history of military conflict in general, whenever there has been a disadvantaged, smaller, poorer, guerilla type force, they are generally armed with whatever they can get their hands on. Logic follows that the ninja may have been armed with all of the above. I understand that in many cases they fashioned shuriken out of regular farming tools, who is to say they may not have fashioned their own more crude style of sword? That said, if the katana, and longer samurai swords were superior in quality, it seems logical that they would take them from the samurai whenever they got the chance (such as after killing a samurai). I don't know but it just seems logical...


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## allenjp

Kreth said:


> Yeah, there's some gems on the internet. I remember stumbling across a rather interesting article several years ago. Apparently when fleeing from samurai, the ninja would often urinate into his fundoshi (while on the run ), then strip it off and swing it over a wall. Apparently *real* ninja had adhesive pee, because it would stick in place and allow the crafty ninja to scale the wall and escape. :roflmao:
> 
> Ah, found the link. The amazing fundoshi escape is towards the bottom...


 
Wow!!! I read this link...they can't be serious! The thing about peeing in the fundoshi to scale a wall is the least outlandish thing they say there. People actually believe this **** ???


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## heretic888

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Cue heretic888(!).



But I like lurking!!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

heretic888 said:


> But I like lurking!!


 
And I like to sleep. Nah meen?

I'll give you a hand - ninja WERE samurai. You can take it from there.


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## heretic888

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> And I like to sleep. Nah meen?
> 
> I'll give you a hand - ninja WERE samurai. You can take it from there.



Oh, bother. 

Okay, allenjp, rather than explain all your misconceptions _ad nauseum_, I'll just supply you a thread to peruse at your leisure:

Ninjutsu History sources

Now you can come to your own conclusions about this "highly illegal counterculture" *snicker*. 

Laterz.


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## allenjp

heretic888 said:


> Oh, bother.
> 
> Okay, allenjp, rather than explain all your misconceptions _ad nauseum_, I'll just supply you a thread to peruse at your leisure:
> 
> Ninjutsu History sources
> 
> Now you can come to your own conclusions about this "highly illegal counterculture" *snicker*.
> 
> Laterz.


 Thank you, but why do you say I have misconceptions? I started this thread with a question, not presuppositions, then others posted their opinions. I did not say anything about them being a "highly illegal counter culture", that was another poster. I simply asked a question and then after reading some opinions stated what might seem logical to me, not any attempts at stating facts. That said I earnestly thank you for the info source.


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## heretic888

allenjp said:


> Thank you, but why do you say I have misconceptions? I started this thread with a question, not presuppositions, then others posted their opinions. I did not say anything about them being a "highly illegal counter culture", that was another poster. I simply asked a question and then after reading some opinions stated what might seem logical to me, not any attempts at stating facts. That said I earnestly thank you for the info source.



Hi allenjp,

My mistake. I confused you for Chris Parker and kwaichang.

Carry on, then.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

allenjp said:


> If you follow the history of military conflict in general, whenever there has *been a disadvantaged, smaller, poorer, guerilla type force*, they are generally armed with whatever they can get their hands on. *Logic follows* that the ninja may have been armed with all of the above. *I understand that in many cases they fashioned shuriken out of regular farming tools, who is to say they may not have fashioned their own more crude style of sword?* That said, if the katana, and longer samurai swords were superior in quality, it seems logical that they would *take them from the samurai* whenever they got the chance (such as after killing a samurai). I don't know but it just seems logical...


 
Those conclusions are pretty much what I would refer to as misconceptions.


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## Cryozombie

Andy Moynihan said:


> the idea told to me was that this could cause a samurai to misjudge the time it would take the ninja to draw his sword so that if he was fooled into thinking he was getting into a straight-up "sword duel" that by the time he got to drawing his katana he was already at a speed disadvantage. This seems to work toward a ninja's ostensible purpose of misdirection in combat, so it makes sense to me.


 
There is also a distance thing involved here... certain techniques for "jamming the draw" (for lack of a better term to use) could be defeated by the shorter blade, allowing the opponent think the "ninja" was too close to draw his sword when in fact the shorter blade facilitated those draws.  Sneaky sneaky.

I like my ninja mask to be a shiny silver oni mask that I wear under my Black face wrap so people dont know Im actually a white guy smuggling cocaine into the US from japan in dolls... Oh wait N/M that was a Sho Kosugi Flick.  hehe


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## SageGhost83

I wouldn't be surprised if the ninja mask was a Hollywood thing, or at least the overemphasis of it was a hollywood thing. As if the Ninja would actually wear it around all day, heh. Hollywood has distorted the image of ninja so badly that the real thing must seem like an exotic, far-fetched creation by now. Well, we have Heretic, VanCise, and other people who actually know what they are talking about to combat all of that nonsense. Thanks guys, you are the ones who helped me overcome my own misconceptions concerning the nin..shinobi no mono  (see, I remembered!).


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## kwaichang

Hey, and don't forget, we have "Ninja Warrior" on G-4 now.  The Japanese finally yeilded to commercialization of a myth.


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## allenjp

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Those conclusions are pretty much what I would refer to as misconceptions.


 
I'm sorry, perhaps I just grew up in a cave somewhere, but when someone constantly puts a caveat into their sentences like MAY HAVE BEEN, or it SEEMS logical,  I generally understand that they are not attempting to state facts but merely what they have heard or ideas they may have so that those that are more educated on the subject can enlighten them. In any case that was my intention if i didn't make it sound that way. The statements that you refer to were only posted after I read some of the comments from other posters...I was merely temporarily assuming what they said to be true for the sake of conversation.


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## kwaichang

allenjp:  IMO, you were correct in your posts.  The ninja were a counter culture to the established Samurai, etc. and they were not recognized as "normal society members".  Sort of like the Yakuza of the 20th century.
Oh, and "Ronin" were not necessarily ninja's as they were masterless Samurai who might take on a job that the more "civilized" warriors might not.
Ninja clans were family as a rule and very secretive, even between clans.


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## allenjp

kwaichang said:


> allenjp: IMO, you were correct in your posts. The ninja were a counter culture to the established Samurai, etc. and they were not recognized as "normal society members". Sort of like the Yakuza of the 20th century.
> Oh, and "Ronin" were not necessarily ninja's as they were masterless Samurai who might take on a job that the more "civilized" warriors might not.
> Ninja clans were family as a rule and very secretive, even between clans.


 
Thank you, but once again I will state that these ideas do not belong to me. I have referred to the comments of other posters for the sake of conversation but I am not forwarding any opinions as my own. I am asking the question to get others' opinions on them, or sources of facts to get info from.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

kwaichang said:


> allenjp: IMO, you were correct in your posts. The ninja were a counter culture to the established Samurai, etc. and they were not recognized as "normal society members". Sort of like the Yakuza of the 20th century.
> Oh, and "Ronin" were not necessarily ninja's as they were masterless Samurai who might take on a job that the more "civilized" warriors might not.
> Ninja clans were family as a rule and very secretive, even between clans.


 
Proof please. Beyond what Hayes told you.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

allenjp said:


> I was merely temporarily assuming what they said to be true for the sake of conversation.


 
Well, you made a good effort then, unfortunately it's not true.


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## allenjp

Thank you for the info, I have spent some time reading threads and posts from you as well as heretic888, and also someone named Don Roley (I think that's his name) and I appreciate the fact that you constantly call for sources to back up claims, and present those sources which you have consulted other than the BS that can be found on many websites. This is in fact the very reason I started this thread...to get real historical information from people who know, so that I could sift through what really is BS more easily. I will do searches to read more of the aforementioned threads...by the way, being a professional foreign language interpreter, and having studied a great deal of central and south american history and culture I can appreciate the difficulty of relating ancient texts from another language and culture into today's English. I am glad that there are those who have taken the time to do IN DEPTH studies of these subjects so that the rest of us may benefit as well. Can anyone refer me to where I can get GOOD books on this history (in English of course)?


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## kwaichang

allenjp said:


> Thank you, but once again I will state that these ideas do not belong to me. .


 
Ok, then in the words of "Emily LaTilla"; "never mind".:wink2:


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## allenjp

I wonder if either green eyed bandit or heretic888 could answer the original question of the thread for me...namely, did Shinobi No Mono wear that type of head covering, or do we even know for sure?


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## kwaichang

may I suggest that Japanese cinema may have answered that as even the earliest films showed the use of a facial covering and they should know their own culture; so it might have been a cloth, a mask or a full face devil mask (such masks are on display in Japan as being used by ninja.


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## allenjp

Found this book,

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1841765252/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

This shows what appears to be a historical Japanese picture of a Shinobi in the typical head covering while attempting to assasinate Nobunaga (did I spell that right?)

Can anybody tell me if this drawing (or the book for that matter) is legit?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

allenjp said:


> Found this book,
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1841765252/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
> 
> This shows what appears to be a historical Japanese picture of a Shinobi in the typical head covering while attempting to assasinate Nobunaga (did I spell that right?)
> 
> Can anybody tell me if this drawing (or the book for that matter) is legit?


 
That drawing won't be considered historical until long after you and I are both dead...and as have been stated before, the black garments usually envisioned as ninja clothing are actually from the Kabuki theatre. I guarantee you that most Japanese are more knowledgeable about Kabuki than historical shinobi no mono/ninja/rappa/suppa/kusa/teisatsu etc etc etc...

The book in question is nothing to get excited about either.


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## allenjp

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> That drawing won't be considered historical until long after you and I are both dead...and as have been stated before, the black garments usually envisioned as ninja clothing are actually from the Kabuki theatre. I guarantee you that most Japanese are more knowledgeable about Kabuki than historical shinobi no mono/ninja/rappa/suppa/kusa/teisatsu etc etc etc...
> 
> The book in question is nothing to get excited about either.


 
lol I guess you're right. everything becomes "historical" at some point or other, thanks.


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## kwaichang

**HERE'S THE PUBLISHERS BLURB**THIS IS A JAPANESE BOOK NOW AVAILABLE IN ENGLISH**
Now you see them, now you don't. Peek inside the Ninja's world and discover the skills, weapons, and ingenious tricks that made these men and women feared and revered for centuries. Learn Ninja techniques for meditation, stealth, and fighting dirty. Study their diet, ancient codes, workout and accupressure points. Find out what it really meant to be a Ninja in old Japan. Want to know everything about one of Japan's most famous legends? This is the book for you. 
For your ordering convenience, this beautiful all-color photobook ships from our San Diego office. Fully in English, with loads of information for you!http://www.japan-stores.com/gallery/album05/ninja_p25_small


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

kwaichang said:


> **HERE'S THE PUBLISHERS BLURB**THIS IS A JAPANESE BOOK NOW AVAILABLE IN ENGLISH**
> Now you see them, now you don't. Peek inside the Ninja's world and discover the skills, weapons, and ingenious tricks that made these men and women feared and revered for centuries. Learn Ninja techniques for meditation, stealth, and fighting dirty. Study their diet, ancient codes, workout and accupressure points. Find out what it really meant to be a Ninja in old Japan. Want to know everything about one of Japan's most famous legends? This is the book for you.
> For your ordering convenience, this beautiful all-color photobook ships from our San Diego office. Fully in English, with loads of information for you!http://www.japan-stores.com/gallery/album05/ninja_p25_small


 
...by Hiromitsu Kuroi of Kuroi ryu fame. 

I am your pantry chef manifested out of pulsating anxiety. Your life juice tastes of iron in the black jaws of the monster. Ectoplasma pours out of the electricity outlets and the maternal murderer salutes his own pale sweating horror-inducing mirror image in the loneliest of all cryoerotic november nights. Do you feel the cold? It is Death, which is soon to arrive in all it's precipitous playfulness.


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## allenjp

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> ...by Hiromitsu Kuroi of Kuroi ryu fame.
> 
> I am your pantry chef manifested out of pulsating anxiety. Your life juice tastes of iron in the black jaws of the monster. Ectoplasma pours out of the electricity outlets and the maternal murderer salutes his own pale sweating horror-inducing mirror image in the loneliest of all cryoerotic november nights. Do you feel the cold? It is Death, which is soon to arrive in all it's precipitous playfulness.


 
Dude...you forgot to invoke heretic this time!


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## Kacey

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, return to the original topic.

Karen Cohn
MT Senior Moderator
*


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## allenjp

OK, I think I found the answer to my question (just in case anyone is interested). I went to Barnes & Noble and found a book written by Masaaki Hatsumi. He is the ultimate living authority on Ninjutsu nes pas?
Well in his book (I can't remember the name of the book but it had "ninja" in the title, and it WAS HIS book, had his name all over it, his picture on the front and back, and many pictures of him with Nagato demonstrating techniques on the inside). Well, there, in a section called "ninja apparel", were the instructions of how to tie and wear the ninja head covering, and it looks a lot like what we have all seen in the movies. The only major difference was that the nose was not covered. As a matter of fact, there were at least a few pictures of his students wearing the kabuki theater style "ninja" getup, and a lot of black everywhere...kinda surprised me. Any comments?


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## kwaichang

Sure.  Hatsumi Sensei's book shows how historical ninja wrapped their face; he showed us in Japan how it was done; using the wide obi normally worn around the waist.  The other photos are of students who had or bought the kabuki dress because it was easier to find and cheaper to buy, yet satisfied the requirements of a black "uniform".
Hope this helps.


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## allenjp

Easier to find and cheaper to buy than what?


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## kwaichang

allenjp said:


> Easier to find and cheaper to buy than what?


At the time of Hatsumi Sensei's book, ninja garb was not sold in Japan.  The Kabuki garb was the only black "outfits" sold as traditionally black was worn by discedent protestors.


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## allenjp

OK, I think I finally found my answer. I went ahead and purchased "The Way of the NINJA, Secret Techniques" by Hatsumi. As far as I am aware, (correct me if I am wrong) there is no controversy about this particular book having actually been written by anyone else. In this book is shown how to wear a face mask with "Sanjaku-tenugui". It is black in the picture. However it is not overly emphasised. Only a couple of pictures actually show anyone wearing one. It also shows a picture of someone clad in "ninja clothes" with a mask, but it looks almost nothing like the "shinobi shozoku". It also shows some "shinobi armor" which looks a lot simpler and lighter than what I have trditionally seen referred to as "samurai armor". It also says they wore chain mail of which I had no idea before. And as far as color I read somewhere in the Ninpiden yesterday that mention several colors, and yes one of them was black. Hatsumis book doesn't seem to mention black, but a lot of people in his book are wearing it. I think the answer is that they wore lots of different things depending on the situation, but yes, on occasion, they did cover their faces with a mask. Thanks for all the info guys...


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## allenjp

Sorry, it was the Shoninki, not the Ninpiden that mentioned the colors (for a specific Ryu) here's the quote:

"In addition, clothes should be dyed green, black or deep purple. There are various types of surroundings, therefore, select the appropriate color for blending in. In the rain change to _haori_."


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## allenjp

heretic888 said:


> Oh, bother.
> 
> Okay, allenjp, rather than explain all your misconceptions _ad nauseum_, I'll just supply you a thread to peruse at your leisure:
> 
> Ninjutsu History sources
> 
> Now you can come to your own conclusions about this "highly illegal counterculture" *snicker*.
> 
> Laterz.


 
Hey Heretic,

I took your advice and started reading a lot of sources including the ones in the link to the thread about Ninjutsu History Sources. In that thread several sources were posted by Don Roley, including a link to the Fujita Seiko Tripod website, in which the following is found:

To understand the reasons why Fujita decided to consign his hereditary, family Ninjutsu system to the list of extinct Japanese martial arts from the pre-modern period, while passing on his other systems, requires reflection upon the nature of Ninjutsu in Japanese history. *Unlike the samurai arts that had evolved with Japan through the long peace of the Tokugawa* Shogunate, and further still after the Meiji modernization, *Ninjutsu had always been an underground and illegal subculture that remained beyond the scope of impact by government decrees*. The martial arts historian Donn F. Draeger in his book, Classical Budo: The Martial Arts and Ways of Japan, Vol. II. *reminds us that Ninjutsu had developed among an oppressed class of people that depended upon secrecy for survival. He writes "below the rank of the commoner were the so called hinin 'nonhumans'" (Draeger, 19). Draeger then goes on to mention that the ninja often came from this shunned class, the hinin, and thus, Ninjutsu had always thrived for the very reason that it was a close knit system that was completely hidden from anyone outside its immediate family circle.
*
Is this website (again this link posted by Don Roley) a fraud? Was Fujita Seiko a fraud? 

I have also read the sources that say that the Iga region in particular was made up of (among others) Jizamurai (lower class of Samurai I believe) these two things don't seem to jive, but I could be wrong.

Please don't think that I am attacking your info, I sincerely want to know this stuff, and you seem to know a lot more than some others. But when you refer me to a thread which contains info specifically opposite to what you postulate it is kinda confusing...

thanks again for all the info.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

allenjp said:


> *Unlike the samurai arts that had evolved with Japan through the long peace of the Tokugawa* Shogunate, and further still after the Meiji modernization, *Ninjutsu had always been an underground and illegal subculture that remained beyond the scope of impact by government decrees*.


 
Which government?



allenjp said:


> The martial arts historian Donn F. Draeger in his book, Classical Budo: The Martial Arts and Ways of Japan, Vol. II. *reminds us that Ninjutsu had developed among an oppressed class of people that depended upon secrecy for survival. He writes "below the rank of the commoner were the so called hinin 'nonhumans'" (Draeger, 19). Draeger then goes on to mention that the ninja often came from this shunned class, the hinin, and thus, Ninjutsu had always thrived for the very reason that it was a close knit system that was completely hidden from anyone outside its immediate family circle.  *


 
Draeger, for all his research, was unfortunately not quite correct on this issue (he was also reportedly one of the first people to get PO-ed at Hatsumi for never teaching the same technique twice...).


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## allenjp

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Which government?
> 
> 
> Draeger, for all his research, was unfortunately not quite correct on this issue (he was also reportedly one of the first people to get PO-ed at Hatsumi for never teaching the same technique twice...).


 
I dunno which government. It's a quote from someone else. I didn't say it, nor did I say I agree with it. 

About Draeger being wrong, that's fine, I don't know anything about him. All I know is that someone has given me information, and then referred me to a link which has info that appears to contradict what he said. So I am not stating anything as fact nor attacking anyone, I just want to know. Maybe you can tell me the answers to my questions, is this website a fraud? Was Fujita Seiko a fraud?


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## Albertus

I don't know why anybody is interested in the Ninja mask? 
I tried to use it and actually have wear it during training but it is basically useless. It blocks your hearing, makes you breath louder and you cannot see where your opponent is anymore because you only have very limited vision in front of you left. 
I don't think any real Ninja was wearing this piece of clothing!!!!
Just according to my practical experience.

Happy training...


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## Bruno@MT

allenjp said:


> Was Fujita Seiko a fraud?



I just read this book.
It is really an interesting read. It is written by a Bujinkan Shihan, so the writer knows what he is talking about.
The book begins with a description of where all the information comes from, and most of the book has source references which are listed in a long list at the end of the book. The info comes from multiple sources.

Basically, Fujita Seiko was the real deal. I was also told someone that many koryu sensei held him in very high esteem.

The book also convinced me that none of us in any xkan could claim to be 'ninja'. Ninjutsu is not only about techniques, but also about physical conditioning and learning to control your body. I am not going into details (the book is only 10$ and more than worth it) but if you look at his early conditioning and endurance training, it is obvious that none today can really claim that title.

But perhaps most importantly to the question of his legitimacy: he came from a ninja family, he had the scrolls documenting koga-ryu and the lineage, and upon death he deeded them to the ninja museum, since he didn't pass on the art. The book also goes into his reasons for that decision btw. And while I think it is sad that the art is lost, I can understand his decision.

Anyway, sorry for the offtopic. I just felt like replying to this specific thing because I just finished reading the book, and I think Fujita Seiko was a) a ninja and b) a truly remarkable man.


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## Aiki Lee

Albertus said:


> I don't know why anybody is interested in the Ninja mask?
> I tried to use it and actually have wear it during training but it is basically useless. It blocks your hearing, makes you breath louder and you cannot see where your opponent is anymore because you only have very limited vision in front of you left.
> I don't think any real Ninja was wearing this piece of clothing!!!!
> Just according to my practical experience.
> 
> Happy training...


 
What kind of messed up mask are you wearing? And for that matter who would make their students train in masks? In my organization we practice elements of stealth and concealment and as long as you use thin material you can hear just fine. With the noe uncovered you breath just fine, and none of my vision was ever blocked by the makshift mask I created.


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## Cryozombie

You guys are seriously wearing ninja masks?

LOL.


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## Albertus

What's wrong with wearing Ninja masks? It is part of our Ninja tradition. You make it sound as if it is something totally alien. But we don't wear them all the time, hardly anytime actually.  We tried them out a few times but it was no succes. Allthough I was exaggeration a bit the last time, it did hinder all of our senses. We used normal Ninjamasks from the shops, no selfmade. But maybe that is better, we will try that out. If it is a succes I will let you know.


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## Aiki Lee

Store bought "ninja masks" have nothign to do with the actual tradition as the earlier posts in this thread indicate. There would be few times a ninja would wear a mask, though I can imagine there would be some instances when he would cover his face.

We only cover our face when practicing concealing ourselves in the shadows at night or when camoflauging ourselves in the woods. Or to keep the bugs off our faces.


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## Cryozombie

Ninja Mask =


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## Aiki Lee

actually a hannya mask would be pretty cool to own.


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## Kusankagi

1. ninja wear or did wear hood/mask (we do)
2. any who train this art is good in it...otherwise your not really training more then your eyes..
3. there is more mystery to us then meets many eyes...
4. japan doesn't claim anything mr hatsumi has sold....
5. there was a Japanese museum since the 20's that had plenty of things that was visible by an "enterprising martial artist" to claim as theirs....


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## Sanke

Kusankagi said:


> 1. ninja wear or did wear hood/mask (we do)
> 2. any who train this art is good in it...otherwise your not really training more then your eyes..
> 3. there is more mystery to us then meets many eyes...
> 4. japan doesn't claim anything mr hatsumi has sold....
> 5. there was a Japanese museum since the 20's that had plenty of things that was visible by an "enterprising martial artist" to claim as theirs....



Could you please read what you just posted and then try again? I honestly didn't understand anything past point 1 there, and I disagree with you already. Also, is the guy in the background holding sai? If so, oh dear...


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## Supra Vijai

I second Sanke's post... could you please repost that as it's a bit hard to follow. From the little I got though, I disagree with pretty much all dot points, the first one especially... It would be like me saying:

1) Ninja trained with modern hand guns and trained in reality based self defence as it is pertinent to the laws of Melbourne, Australia circa 2012 (we do)

As for the others, well that kinda loses me. I'll try to go through it point by point here:

2) Training in the art does NOT make you good at it. I for instance have been training for about 5 years now, however I am mediocre at best (by my own self evaluation). I am not totally rubbish but by no standards am I "good". What is your definition of good anyway? I don't understand what you mean by "training more than your eyes"... Are you learning based on videos?

3) There is more mystery to anything than meets the eye. Any martial art (picked that example just to keep some contextual relevance here) can look fairly straightforward or simple but its nuances and subtleties can only be experienced through training - repeated, ongoing training at that.

4) Define what you mean by "Japan doesn't claim anything?" Claim in what sense? If my memory serves me correctly, Hatsumi was declared a national treasure, which implies acceptance and recognition if not blatant "claiming" of his teachings...

5) This point has me completely stumped! A Japanese museum that had plenty of things that an enterprising martial artist could claim as theirs??? Huh?

If you don't mind, can you also clarify where you study the art, under whom and what your experience is? I understand English may not be your first language and that may present a barrier when speaking on a forum such as this but some clarification would be appreciated. Thanks.




Kusankagi said:


> 1. ninja wear or did wear hood/mask (we do)
> 2. any who train this art is good in it...otherwise your not really training more then your eyes..
> 3. there is more mystery to us then meets many eyes...
> 4. japan doesn't claim anything mr hatsumi has sold....
> 5. there was a Japanese museum since the 20's that had plenty of things that was visible by an "enterprising martial artist" to claim as theirs....


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## Sukerkin

:chuckles:  Bot or Troll?  Only time will tell.


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## Supra Vijai

Sukerkin said:


> :chuckles:  Bot or Troll?  Only time will tell.



Suke! Long time no chat my friend  I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying just not a native English speaker. As you said, we shall see though! If nothing else, it keeps the forum ticking along


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## Sukerkin

:waves:  Hi Vijai.  I reckon as the poster has only posted the once that rules out being a Bot.  Joking aside, I agree, benefit of the doubt, on whether the poster is a native English speaker or not, is the best policy until more evidence arises.


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## Supra Vijai

Sanke said:


> Could you please read what you just posted and then try again? I honestly didn't understand anything past point 1 there, and I disagree with you already. Also, is the guy in the background holding sai? If so, oh dear...





Sukerkin said:


> :waves:  Hi Vijai.  I reckon as the poster has only posted the once that rules out being a Bot.  Joking aside, I agree, benefit of the doubt, on whether the poster is a native English speaker or not, is the best policy until more evidence arises.



I should have checked this last night before my post I guess but I was a tad too tired after our own training and was looking forward to falling into bed. I still say damn you Sanke for sharing 

I'd say not a bot, possibly not even a troll, just... different. Found this to give some context: https://www.facebook.com/groups/22457436999/ There are also a couple of videos on Ebaums World and other such websites if you really want to watch


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## Sanke

Supra Vijai said:


> I should have checked this last night before my post I guess but I was a tad too tired after our own training and was looking forward to falling into bed. I still say damn you Sanke for sharing



Got you back here though 



Supra Vijai said:


> I'd say not a bot, possibly not even a troll, just... different. Found this to give some context: https://www.facebook.com/groups/22457436999/ There are also a couple of videos on Ebaums World and other such websites if you really want to watch



Where do you FIND this stuff??


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## Supra Vijai

Sanke said:


> Got you back here though



Hahaha that it did!





> Where do you FIND this stuff??



Mate... I'm a ninja... Information gatherer  Besides, my google-fu is strong!


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## Cryozombie

3 years later and I still say Ninja Mask =


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## Supra Vijai

Haha sticking to your guns eh Cryo? Aren't necro'd threads fun?


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## Cryozombie

Supra Vijai said:


> Haha sticking to your guns eh Cryo? Aren't necro'd threads fun?



LOL.  I don't have a problem with threads coming back to life, I think that they can provide opportunity to examine teh way our thoughts/ideas/knowledge change... 

Or stay the same.


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