# Mark Bishop's Okinawan Karate: Teachers, Styles, and Secret Techniques



## Makalakumu (Apr 15, 2009)

http://www.amazon.com/Okinawan-Karate-Teachers-Styles-Techniques/dp/0804832056

I've been reading this book and enjoying it a lot.  I am wondering if any other members of read it.  What do you think of it?

IMO, this seems like a pretty good book.  Mr. Bishop took the time to interview so many different Old Okinawan Karate Masters, the history and insight they provide is very informative.  Some arts just don't have a lot of coverage, however.  Like Isshinryu.  Weird, that's a very popular style of Okinawan karate.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 15, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Okinawan-Karate-Teachers-Styles-Techniques/dp/0804832056
> 
> I've been reading this book and enjoying it a lot.  I am wondering if any other members of read it.  What do you think of it?
> 
> IMO, this seems like a pretty good book.  Mr. Bishop took the time to interview so many different Old Okinawan Karate Masters, the history and insight they provide is very informative.  Some arts just don't have a lot of coverage, however.  Like Isshinryu.  Weird, that's a very popular style of Okinawan karate.



I have it and have read it several times.  I like it, but I do not know how accurate it is - being a newbie myself.  I find myself skipping around in it quite a bit.  Being involved in Isshinryu myself, I have to agree with you about the lack of coverage there.  I suspect part of the reason is that Isshinryu is so fragmented since the death of Master Shimabuku.  I like Steve Armstrong's books for the history of Isshinryu and associated kata - still trying to track them all down, they're a bit rare and pricey.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 15, 2009)

Cool.  I'll have to check the Library for that book, Bill.  It sounds interesting.  One thing that I find interesting is that EVERY Itosu derived karate style also had a kobudo style attached to it.  I wonder what happened to the kobudo in Shotokan?


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 15, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Cool.  I'll have to check the Library for that book, Bill.  It sounds interesting.  One thing that I find interesting is that EVERY Itosu derived karate style also had a kobudo style attached to it.  I wonder what happened to the kobudo in Shotokan?



Forgive me, I am a humble beginner, but I thought Shotokan had no kobudo?  Gichen Funikoshi was a strong believer that Karate was for defense use only, and that if you needed weapons, you were not yet good enough with your empty hands.  Apologies if I got that wrong.


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## twendkata71 (Apr 15, 2009)

*I have the first edition, I have heard that the 2nd edition is more in depth. I liked reading it.  The lack of information on Isshin ryu was appearently because he could not get much of an interview with Kinchiro Shimabuku(son of O sensei Shimabuko Tatsuo), *
*As far as the subject of Shotokan and Kobudo goes, many Shotokan schools are starting to teach Okinawan Kobudo now. No one is quite sure why Funakoshi Gichin O Sensei stopped teaching Kobudo. He was teaching kobudo in the beginning.  Many of his students continued to train in kobudo with Taira Shinken(who was a kobudo master and student of Funakoshi O Sensei), Most did not. Apparently only focusing on their karate do and trying to distance themselves from the Okinawan origins, attempting to make karate a truely Japanese art.  So I would say that politics had some play in Funakoshi's decision to stop teaching kobudo.*


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## arnisador (Apr 15, 2009)

I suppose that in some sense "pure" Shotokan doesn't teach weapons, but in my experience most schools will at least teach the bo nowadays.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 15, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *I have the first edition, I have heard that the 2nd edition is more in depth. I liked reading it.  The lack of information on Isshin ryu was appearently because he could not get much of an interview with Kinchiro Shimabuku(son of O sensei Shimabuko Tatsuo)*



Isshinryu is very split, and I do not wish to add to the furor, but from my point of view, the head of Okinawan Isshinryu is Tatsuo's son-in-law, Angi Uezo.  Since the book was about Okinawan Karate and not Okinawan-derived American Karate, I would have thought he would have interviewed Master Uezu.

However, my own lineage is from Master Tatsuo Shimabuku to Masters Harrill and Mitchum, to my sensei, to me.  So the Okinawan 'who is head of Isshinryu' debate is outside my ken.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 15, 2009)

I have the 2nd edition of the book and I really like it.  Interesting about GF and  Shotokan.  I didn't know that he did teach the kobudo aspect and then stopped.  Taira Shinken continued teaching it?  When I trained in Shotokan, there were no weapons.  

Yeesh, Isshinryu politics sound like they are messy!


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 15, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Yeesh, Isshinryu politics sound like they are messy!



It can be.  The story I hear is that Master Shimabuku named his son-in-law as his successor to Okinawan Isshinryu, passing over his own son, who (I am told) had no interest in karate at the time.  However, his family was upset, and they pressured Shimabuku-san to change his mind.  Finally, old and sick, he did.  However, Master Uezu considered this invalid and ignored it, continuing to believe himself the designated head of Isshinryu.

Meanwhile, years before, Master Shimabuku had trained a number of American Marines, mostly for a year or two, tops, and had awarded them all high-degree black belts when they left Okinawa, telling them that they should continue to practice and eventually they would be worthy of the high ranks he gave them.  Some say that he told them NOT to call themselves by those ranks immediately - some say otherwise.  In any case, several of his American students did come back to the US and opened dojos, mostly proclaiming the ranks he had given them.  Earned, unearned?  The founder gave them - who can say they were earned or unearned if not the founder?  But some resented this very much, especially in Okinawa.

Apparently, Master Shimabuku also had a tendency to not to want to hurt anyone's feelings, so he told a number of his American (and Okinawan) students that they were his "number one" student.  They each took it to heart, so we have many heads of various Isshinryu organizations proclaiming that they were Shimabuku's 'number one' student - probably all telling the truth, too, in that the founder said it!

Master Shimabuku also visited the US and toured the US dojos several times, teaching and testing and awarding dans and so on.  Some say he wrote a letter rescinding all the American black belts high degrees at one time - but most Americans ignored the letter.  Later visits were made by Master Shimabuku and he did not make an issue of it, nor did he refuse to recognize the belts they claimed - so what to make of that?

However, Master Uezu has also visited on a number of occasions, and he also has had little bad to say about the various dojos or American senseis he has examined.  I am told he has been to my dojo, long before my time.  I had the good fortune to work with him when I was stationed in Okinawa, but I did not learn karate from him, to my great detriment.

By and large, I am pleased that I happened to end up in a branch that was taught by Masters Harrill and Mitchum.  Not that the others were bad or wrong, but we really do strive to do Isshinryu the way Master Shimabuku taught it.  Is it right, wrong, authentic, authorized?  I don't know.  But it works for me.  I'm mostly immune to the politics.  I'm just here for the karate.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 15, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Forgive me, I am a humble beginner, but I thought Shotokan had no kobudo?  Gichen Funikoshi was a strong believer that Karate was for defense use only, and that if you needed weapons, you were not yet good enough with your empty hands.  Apologies if I got that wrong.



The Shotokan done today is not what Funakoshi taught, it was modified a fair bit after he died.  He did do Kobudo, and taught some at one point, don't think it was ever "officially" part of Shotokan though. ( He's the one with the sai )




Bill Mattocks said:


> Isshinryu is very split, and I do not wish to add to the furor, but from my point of view, the head of Okinawan Isshinryu is Tatsuo's son-in-law, Angi Uezo.



A lot of people think that, but then again a lot of people don't.

Isshin ryu, despite being a "Okinawan" style, really is not that big in Okinanwa in my understanding.  It grew outside of Okinawa and never really took there, partially due to politics (Kichero having some "baggage" attached to him), and officially it was Kichero that took over the style on Okinawa.  Uezo broke away much later.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 15, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> Isshin ryu, despite being a "Okinawan" style, really is not that big in Okinanwa in my understanding.  It grew outside of Okinawa and never really took there, partially due to politics (Kichero having some "baggage" attached to him), and officially it was Kichero that took over the style on Okinawa.  Uezo broke away much later.



Master Uezu was teaching Isshinryu while I was stationed on Okinawa.  He was introduced to me as the head of Isshinryu, this was in 1982.  He was a Japanese Security Guard at Camp Foster, I was an MP at the same base, so we worked together at times.

Isshinryu may not be 'big' on Okinawa, but it was big with Marines.  Most of the Marines I knew who studied karate were either Isshinryu or Shorinryu if they learned it on Okinawa.  I didn't know anyone doing other styles at that time - one guy I knew was doing TKD, and another was some kind of sword-drawing-and-slashing guy, he practiced this one move the whole time I was on the island (Iaito, I think I've been told).

I was also told that 'Isshinryu was watered down for Marines', which was not true, I think.  Isshinryu uses the meat of the arm for blocks, not the bone.  Some have said that this was simply Master Shimabuku's preference after much study, whilst others have said that a) Marines were not tough enough to do 'real' karate or b) Marines were getting in trouble with their commanders for getting broken bones during kumite and Shimabuku had to come up with something else or risk losing his students.

In any case, all the stories are interesting.  I like Isshinryu as it is, though.  I will admit - I keep getting corrected for having a 'Shotokan' stance (too deep by Isshinryu standards) and I tend to want to roll my forearm up during a high block (jodan uke) with my palm facing out - Isshinryu has it facing in.  Funny, since I never took Shotokan - just a natural thing for me.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 15, 2009)

Hey, Bill, just curious, were you just not interested in the martial arts at the time you were in Okinawa?  Or did you train somewhere else?

As far as Isshinryu's muscle block is concerned, there are techniques in the Shorin kata that use the bone to bang on various vital points.  So, I'm curious about that style of blocking.  

I liked the section in the book about Chotoku Kyan.  His personal life was "interesting" and being his student must have also been equally interesting.  Brothels and drinking bouts to round your karate training, people.  That's the missing secret!


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 15, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Hey, Bill, just curious, were you just not interested in the martial arts at the time you were in Okinawa?  Or did you train somewhere else?



I was much more interested in getting drunk every night when I wasn't working.  What a loser.  I missed a golden opportunity, and nobody to blame for it but myself.  In some ways, I'm trying to fix that now.



> As far as Isshinryu's muscle block is concerned, there are techniques in the Shorin kata that use the bone to bang on various vital points.  So, I'm curious about that style of blocking.



As you probably know, Isshinryu is known for snap kicks and the vertical punch (non-torquing).  We also practice an unusual forearm block.  The side middle-body block is called 'chudan uke' and it is practiced with the forearm facing out to the side, fist vertical.  The upper body blocks, 'judan uke' and 'jodan tegata uke' are done with the fist or palm facing in, not out.






This is not our style, but it shows the jodan uke pretty clearly.  We would bring the left hand in to the waist vertically, not palm up as seen here, and the palm would be facing in towards our heads, not out as seen here. The stance is also not as deep - we practice heel-toe, with no more than a couple inches between the heel of the front foot and the toes of the rear foot.  Here it shows a foot or more space between them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_uq...965085515&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=6

This is an interesting chudan uke, but we do it somewhat differently.  Instead of having the palm facing up, as in the video, we end with the palm facing inboard, top of the forearm outboard.  We also 'stack' the first of the left at the waist over the right fist (and vice-versa).  Our 'circle' is much smaller than the big movements shown in the video.  We don't bang-block in most cases, but use the forearm to guide and rudder the incoming punch - either to the inside or the outside.  The punch comes in, we cross the center line, bring the fist up in a circular motion,  contact the incoming punch at or below the wrist, and 'set' our block, which is elbow one inche from our body and arm at about 45 degrees out from straight up.  If we 'set' the incoming punch correctly, we have ruddered his punch outboard of our body, and we can actually punch straight off the block into his jaw, in an uppercut (jodan tsuki).

We practice kotekitai as well to toughen the muscles and desensitize the nerves for using the muscles as pads to hit with instead of bone.



> I liked the section in the book about Chotoku Kyan.  His personal life was "interesting" and being his student must have also been equally interesting.  Brothels and drinking bouts to round your karate training, people.  That's the missing secret!



I found the entire book fascinating, to the extent that I've re-read it a couple times.  I'm on the lookout for more books of that sort.  I've also spent some time searching old out-of-copyright books found on books.google.com and old issues of Black Belt are there also.


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## astrobiologist (Apr 15, 2009)

Huh,

I was passing by Borders today, and figured, though broke, I would check the shelves to see if anything new was out.

Wouldn't ya know it.  I looked at this exact book.  Looks very interesting.  Too bad poor astro is just that - poor 

I leave on May 31st for California to work as a staff member for the NASA Academy.  Hopefully Lockheed Martin will pay pretty descently.  With a little more cash in pocket I'll be free to expand my library a little more.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 15, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Master Uezu was teaching Isshinryu while I was stationed on Okinawa.  He was introduced to me as the head of Isshinryu, this was in 1982.  He was a Japanese Security Guard at Camp Foster, I was an MP at the same base, so we worked together at times.




Well...

In many people's eyes he was, however on paper he was still under Kichiro's organization.  Although he was perhaps the head instructor, Kichiro owned the family business.

There was also a few other people that would have claimed "head of Isshinryu" at that time in the USA that didn't follow either of those two.



> I was also told that 'Isshinryu was watered down for Marines', which was not true, I think.



I think that might have more to do with guys spending a tour or two there and leaving with 6th dan certificates. Nowadays that certainly wouldn't go over well 

I think the watered it down for ______ arguments are generally a bunch of nonsense, just people thinking that their system has everything that a system could possibly have, and if anyone says there is no rubber guard in karate they learnt the watered down version


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## searcher (Apr 16, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Isshinryu is very split, and I do not wish to add to the furor, but from my point of view, the head of Okinawan Isshinryu is Tatsuo's son-in-law, Angi Uezo. Since the book was about Okinawan Karate and not Okinawan-derived American Karate, I would have thought he would have interviewed Master Uezu.


 

I am in agreement with Bill on this above statement.


And if you interview Master Uezu and you don't talk with Kinchiro, you are asking for a war.  


I am also with Bill on not wanting to add to the fire.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 16, 2009)

A couple of things that struck me upon reading the book are the descriptions of how the old karate masters taught before there ever was a thing as "Okinawan Karate."

Basically, a "class" consisted of weight training and conditioning, direct instruction in kata and application, and lots of time to drill with a partner.  On top of this, various kata were altered by the teacher in order to fit different students.  The teacher would come and look at what you were doing and if it worked for you, then the kata would be taught to you so that it reflected that.

This stands in direct contrast with how karate is taught today.  The old way was much more fluid and alive.  It allowed the art to evolve.  The way it is practiced now, captures a moment of time and attempts to carry it forward unchanged.


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## astrobiologist (Apr 16, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> A couple of things that struck me upon reading the book are the descriptions of how the old karate masters taught before there ever was a thing as "Okinawan Karate."
> 
> Basically, a "class" consisted of weight training and conditioning, direct instruction in kata and application, and lots of time to drill with a partner. On top of this, various kata were altered by the teacher in order to fit different students. The teacher would come and look at what you were doing and if it worked for you, then the kata would be taught to you so that it reflected that.
> 
> This stands in direct contrast with how karate is taught today. The old way was much more fluid and alive. It allowed the art to evolve. The way it is practiced now, captures a moment of time and attempts to carry it forward unchanged.


 
I will have to read this book!


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## punisher73 (Apr 17, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> A couple of things that struck me upon reading the book are the descriptions of how the old karate masters taught before there ever was a thing as "Okinawan Karate."
> 
> Basically, a "class" consisted of weight training and conditioning, direct instruction in kata and application, and lots of time to drill with a partner. On top of this, various kata were altered by the teacher in order to fit different students. The teacher would come and look at what you were doing and if it worked for you, then the kata would be taught to you so that it reflected that.
> 
> This stands in direct contrast with how karate is taught today. The old way was much more fluid and alive. It allowed the art to evolve. The way it is practiced now, captures a moment of time and attempts to carry it forward unchanged.


 
The conditioning and weight training was big with the styles often referred to as "Naha-Te" (such as Goju and Uechi). 

The reason why Isshin-Ryu is not big on Okinawa is that it is still considered a substyle of Shorin-Ryu and many of Shimabuku's okinawan students left and went back to the other styles so that they would be recognized by a large organization.

Many of the things that Isshin-Ryu has are NOT unique to that style alone, other styles have the snapping punch, and a vertical fist.  Also, the double bone block for example is used by other styles as well in application.  The difference is that in Isshin-Ryu, you stop the motion there and don't continue with the rotation to the traditional "thumb side" out position so that it helps to recieve and parry the strike away from your body.  This goes back to the idea that "uke" means to block, when it means to receive. 

It also depends on _when _you studied with Shimabuku.  There are some who claim and still teach the traditional horizontal punch that Shimabuku put back in at one time.  Also, look at footage of Shimabuku and he didn't always do the "snapping punch either".

Look at his Seisan:




 
Look at his Wansu:




 
The "snap" at the beginning of Seisan isn't a snap at all, it is 2 seperate techniques. The vertical punch and then it goes into chudan uke.  So there are also schools of Isshin Ryu that don't use the "snap punch" but thrust with their vertical punch.

So what you have is a BUNCH of different organizations based on WHEN each person studied with Shimabuku.  Since they were all there only short periods of time, and it was during constant revision and refinement, each person has a very different view of what IsshinRyu is.


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## astrobiologist (Apr 17, 2009)

As I'm beginning in Isshin Ryu, I'm trying to keep an open mind and take in what I can about this style's history and technical applications.  

I'm still unsure as to whether or not I actually feel stronger using the vertical fist with the thumb on top.  My father had mentioned how our Sensei had shown him how the thumb on the side, as it is in most japanese and korean arts, is weaker by snapping his thumb back, but then I had my thumb on top and our other Sensei unintentionally snapped my thumb back (it was sore for over a month and I still can't rotate fully).  I've heard the story that Okinawan Masters all use the vertical fist and they only teach the traditional twisting punch to us foreigners, but I have to say that I think this story is probably a fabrication for justification rather than truth.  I'm using both variations for punching now.

If it is true that in the past Masters would selectively teach kata to students based upon the student's need, I find that a much more student-based approach to teaching rather than everyone learning the same curriculum in the same progression.  When women begin in martial arts, they usually have a lot of grace but need to learn the strength and power.  Likewise, a lot of men are strong, but lack the grace to make their technique flow.  There are some students who need to work on their grappling.  Some need more work on striking.  There are students who learn fast and some who learn slower.  Selectively teaching based upon a student's need would be an awesome approach.  I wonder how that could be implemented though in a school that has more than a few students and a set training schedule.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 17, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> It also depends on _when _you studied with Shimabuku.  There are some who claim and still teach the traditional horizontal punch that Shimabuku put back in at one time.  Also, look at footage of Shimabuku and he didn't always do the "snapping punch either".
> 
> Look at his Seisan:
> 
> ...



I'm sure that is all true. I'm not sure how it affects me as a student - or how it should.  Frankly, I am interested in it from a historical perspective, but from the political perspective, I really could not possibly care less.  I listen to furious arguments about Migami versus Misugami, and I'm thinking, Who the frick cares?  If people can argue about the name of the Goddess on the Isshinryu patch, they've got issues, and I'm certainly not going to get involved.

I like the Isshinryu I'm being taught - authentic or not.  I compare our kata to the videos you refer to and they look the same. I see a lot of Youtube videos of Isshinryu katas that look nothing like what we do.  So I'm pretty comfortable - if what I am being taught is not 'right', it at least corresponds to what Master Shimabuku was doing at one point.  And Master Mitchum comes to our dojo with some regularity - he has not had cause to complain that I'm aware of (I have not yet met him, but this is what I'm told).  If we're doing it wrong, we have a lot of company.

And frankly, I like the Gojuryu aspects of Isshinryu as much or more than the Shorinryu.  I like the 'hard-soft' parts, though I've noticed that modern-day Goju tends to emphasize the 'hard' much more.  In some ways, I feel we've preserved the 'hard-soft' ways of Goju better than Goju has.  Just an observation from a newbie, take it for what it may be worth.


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## chinto (Apr 19, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Okinawan-Karate-Teachers-Styles-Techniques/dp/0804832056
> 
> I've been reading this book and enjoying it a lot.  I am wondering if any other members of read it.  What do you think of it?
> 
> IMO, this seems like a pretty good book.  Mr. Bishop took the time to interview so many different Old Okinawan Karate Masters, the history and insight they provide is very informative.  Some arts just don't have a lot of coverage, however.  Like Isshinryu.  Weird, that's a very popular style of Okinawan karate.



I have had a copy for about 4 years now.  its a great book and a great resource!  I would suggest it is one of the more important books for any Okinawan stylist to own.


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 19, 2009)

I have a copy of the 2nd edition and its not a bad book to have in the library.  Easy to read and understand.  We are making it required reading in my dojo.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 20, 2009)

It is interesting to note that most of the Shorin kata, including the ones that Ankoh Itosu created, are practiced in extant Te systems.  One would think that a Te system that traces it's lineage back to the Okinawan Monarchy would have very little connection with the karate that Itosu practiced and reformulated.


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## punisher73 (Apr 20, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm sure that is all true. I'm not sure how it affects me as a student - or how it should. Frankly, I am interested in it from a historical perspective, but from the political perspective, I really could not possibly care less. I listen to furious arguments about Migami versus Misugami, and I'm thinking, Who the frick cares? If people can argue about the name of the Goddess on the Isshinryu patch, they've got issues, and I'm certainly not going to get involved.
> 
> I like the Isshinryu I'm being taught - authentic or not. I compare our kata to the videos you refer to and they look the same. I see a lot of Youtube videos of Isshinryu katas that look nothing like what we do. So I'm pretty comfortable - if what I am being taught is not 'right', it at least corresponds to what Master Shimabuku was doing at one point. And Master Mitchum comes to our dojo with some regularity - he has not had cause to complain that I'm aware of (I have not yet met him, but this is what I'm told). If we're doing it wrong, we have a lot of company.
> 
> And frankly, I like the Gojuryu aspects of Isshinryu as much or more than the Shorinryu. I like the 'hard-soft' parts, though I've noticed that modern-day Goju tends to emphasize the 'hard' much more. In some ways, I feel we've preserved the 'hard-soft' ways of Goju better than Goju has. Just an observation from a newbie, take it for what it may be worth.


 
That was the point I was trying to make, it is interesting from a historical point of view to see how things were refined and changed.  BUT, as long as you are happy with what you are doing there is no need to get into the political mud slinging to try and _prove_ your flavor is the best.  Like you said, they almost all look the same and are VERY recognizable to each other.

BTW, I do believe that Mitchum was one of the few who made trips back to Okinawa to study with Tatsuo and actually taught in one of his dojos while stationed in Okinawa.


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## TimoS (Apr 21, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> It is interesting to note that most of the Shorin kata, including the ones that Ankoh Itosu created, are practiced in extant Te systems.  One would think that a Te system that traces it's lineage back to the Okinawan Monarchy would have very little connection with the karate that Itosu practiced and reformulated.



Not quite sure what you mean by this. Care to elaborate?


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 21, 2009)

TimoS said:


> Not quite sure what you mean by this. Care to elaborate?


I was wondering that also


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## Makalakumu (Apr 21, 2009)

TimoS said:


> Not quite sure what you mean by this. Care to elaborate?



An example used in the book is Motobu Ryu.  This system was passed down through Choyu Motobu, who, as far as I have learned, had no connection with Ankoh Itosu.  Yet, the book shows that the Pinan kata are part of the set they learn.  How did that happen?  Does this mean the kata were adopted?  If so, then is this really a classical Okinawan Te system?


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## TimoS (Apr 21, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> An example used in the book is Motobu Ryu.  This system was passed down through Choyu Motobu, who, as far as I have learned, had no connection with Ankoh Itosu.  Yet, the book shows that the Pinan kata are part of the set they learn.  How did that happen?  Does this mean the kata were adopted?  If so, then is this really a classical Okinawan Te system?



Ok. I think you are confusing the two totally separate Motobu styles, what is currently known as Motobu Udundi and Choki Motobu's karate. Although nowadays the head of both of styles is the same person, Chosei Motobu, Choki Motobu's son, they are still two very different fighting methods.


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## punisher73 (Apr 21, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> An example used in the book is Motobu Ryu. This system was passed down through Choyu Motobu, who, as far as I have learned, had no connection with Ankoh Itosu. Yet, the book shows that the Pinan kata are part of the set they learn. How did that happen? Does this mean the kata were adopted? If so, then is this really a classical Okinawan Te system?


 

The "original method" of Motobu-Ryu did not have katas.  It was only taught to the first born male in the family to be passed down.  Choki Motobu was not the eldest son and only learned bits of his family's art.  Motobu studied under other okinawan masters and applied what he learned and came up with some of his own theories on it.  Choki Motobu did have and teach katas, his most notable kata was Naihanchi.

Today, Chosei (Choki's son) teaches what he learned from his father.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 21, 2009)

The above two posts explain a lot.  Some of what the book said is exactly that.  However, the art in the book that I am talking about, the Motobu Ryu of Choyu NOT Chokki, the Motobu Ryu that is an indigenous Te system, the writer stated that this art practiced several of the Shorin katas, including the Pinans.  I don't know if Te systems are supposed to have katas at all, so my question about the inclusion of the Pinans despite no connection with Itosu may be moot.  It is explained by the fact that grandson is now the head of both systems.  Perhaps he altered them and added them.


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## twendkata71 (Apr 21, 2009)

Isn't there a Motobu Ryu that is taught here in the states that did adopt kata into its curriculum? I remember reading about this in the mid 80's in black belt magazine. Maybe this also is the Motobu ryu karate of Motobu Chokki, instead of the Ti style.
And before he passed away Uehara was the head of the Motobu ryu Ti on Okinawa. I don't remember ever hearing that Motobu Chokki's son Chosei taking over as head of the Motobu ryu ti style after Uehara Seikichi passed away.
He is the head of the Motobu ryu karate style, which is not the same thing. Eventhough several elements of his family's ti are added. Perhaps because Motobu Chokki was only taught small elements of his family's ti system. Since his brother inherited the complete system according to tradition that it only be passed to the eldest son. 
I have read that Uehara did add some kata type exercises to the Motobu ryu ti, but not pinan kata. 
Perhaps the article you are talking about is about the Motobu ryu karate style, which is Motobu Chokki's style he taught, and not the Family ti style. 
Since I have not studied either, I cannot say for sure, I can only go by what I have read on the subject.


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## Ray B (Apr 22, 2009)

Here is a disscussion we had at another board regarding Motobu-ryu (starts @ post #19):
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41484&highlight=motobu-ryu&page=2

As per Classical Fighting Arts Issue, Vol. 2 No. 11 (issue#34), page 49, translated by Kiko Asai Ferreira, edited by Feliciano Ferreia and Charles Goodin. "Choki Motobu's son, Chosei Motobu, asked Kiko Asai Ferreira, to work under his direct supervision, and make English translations of the lost interviews. We present those translations here, followed by comments by Chosei Motobu, who carries on the traditions of *Motobu-Ryu* (from his father, Choki Motobu) and *Motobu-Ryu* Udunte (from his uncle, Choyu Motobu, as taught to him by Seikichi Uehara)."

Choki's teachers included Matsumura, Matsumora and Itosu among others.

Peace.


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## Uchinanchu (May 27, 2009)

I would'nt waste the time it takes to  wipe my nose (or my backside, for that matter)with the pages of Bishop's book.  His arrogance is only surpassed by his ignorance.


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## Makalakumu (May 27, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> I would'nt waste the time it takes to  wipe my nose (or my backside, for that matter)with the pages of Bishop's book.  His arrogance is only surpassed by his ignorance.



Why do you think that?  What's the deal?


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## twendkata71 (May 27, 2009)

*I would think that he believes that because, Mr. Bishop is primarily a Ti practitioner who also trained in Shorin ryu and Goju ryu. Many of the interviews and opinions about the karate styles were short or incomplete. Not giving the whole picture about these karate styles.  *
*And he does come across as a bit arrogant, or close minded at times in the book. Still he did do a lot of interviewing of the old masters that were still alive at that time. *


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## Brandon Fisher (May 27, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> I would'nt waste the time it takes to wipe my nose (or my backside, for that matter)with the pages of Bishop's book. His arrogance is only surpassed by his ignorance.


I have noticed the arrogant tone in several spots.  Really its not the #1 choice but not totally worthless IMO.


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## twendkata71 (May 27, 2009)

*The book did have several good contacts on Okinawa, many of which I used to do my own research.  I must admit though, calling Okinawa his very expensive.  I did however enjoy talking to the gentleman that runs/ran the Shureido store in Naha. very nice gentleman, spoke pretty good english as well.  If I had the money I would go to Okinawa to buy products there at the store, Much cheaper to buy them directly there. You wouldn't have the tariff taxes that you have here when it comes into the country. With the Shureido KC-10 costing almost $200.00 here, it only cost about $85.00 there and with your name / and or style embroidered on it. The shuriedo embroidered  black belts are much cheaper as well there. About $54.00 there, as opposed to $124.00 here.  Sorry a bit off topic.  I still have a copy of Bishops first edition. *


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## Brandon Fisher (May 27, 2009)

Just a note on pricing with Shureido.  2 years ago someone brought back 2 Shureido K-10 Gi's for me from Okinawa and they were $135 each embroidered on the chest, lapal and pants.


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## Todd (Jun 2, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> I would'nt waste the time it takes to  wipe my nose (or my backside, for that matter)with the pages of Bishop's book.  His arrogance is only surpassed by his ignorance.


FWIW, karate researcher Mario McKenna had this to say about Bishop's book on another forum:

I remember as well how much I liked Mark Bishops' book "Okinawan Karate - Teachers, Styles and Secret Techniques" before I moved to Japan. There was simply no quality information on Okinawa Karate in English at that time (mid-1980's). However, after moving to Japan I was quite surprised to notice some stark similarities between the information presented, and the style summaries provided by each Association / Dojo head written in the Uechi-ryu Karate History book edited by Takamiyagi Shigeru. Its was an interesting coincidence.​



twendkata71 said:


> *I did however enjoy talking to the gentleman that runs/ran the Shureido store in Naha. very nice gentleman, spoke pretty good english as well.  If I had the money I would go to Okinawa to buy products there at the store, Much cheaper to buy them directly there. You wouldn't have the tariff taxes that you have here when it comes into the country. With the Shureido KC-10 costing almost $200.00 here, it only cost about $85.00 there and with your name / and or style embroidered on it. *


IIRC, I paid about 15,000 yen at Shureido's Naha store for my last KC-10 a couple years back (with the style and my name embroidered on it - size 5).  That translates to $156 USD right now, and I do believe the US store prices vary with the exchange rate.


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## twendkata71 (Jun 2, 2009)

*I had friends go to Okinawa in 1989. So, I was going on that. Ah, inflation. Still, the taxes on merchandise comming from Japan into the US is high. I would rather pay $156.00 than $250.00.  *


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 3, 2009)

Inflation thats for sure.  I paid $83.00 for my first shureido gi in 1993 that was brought back for me from Okinawa.  Now thats unheard of.


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## Todd (Jun 3, 2009)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Inflation thats for sure.  I paid $83.00 for my first shureido gi in 1993 that was brought back for me from Okinawa.  Now thats unheard of.



Not really - just depends on what weight/quality of canvas you want.  Shureido still has some gi in that price range.  The light canvas gi don't last as long, but they do dry a lot quicker in the hot & humid weather, and they are lighter and fold more compactly for travel.


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## robertmrivers (Jun 5, 2009)

There are no kata in Motobu Udundi (the proper name of Choyu Motobu's lineage). Even the kata people see during demonstrations with Uehara Sensei are a recent (30 years) incarnation used to provide a medium of practice in Meutudi and Mutudi (principles of Udundi) and koneridi.

Interviews with Uehara Sensei tell of he and Choyu Sensei being asked to demonstrate during enbu but they never demonstrated Udundi (its secret, afterall). They would instead demonstrate Ufukun (Kusanku-like kata).

Motobu Chosei Soke teaches Naihanchi 1 and 2 as well as the juni hon Kumite. Of course there are other things taught, even saw Inaba Hanshi demonstrate Chinto, but the core of the curriculum is only these three items.

Upon Uehara Sensei's passing, the title of Soke was passed to Chosei Sensei, although the headquarters is still in Okinawa with Uehara's son. Therefore, Chosei Sensei is the Soke of both Nihon Denryu Heiho Motobu Kempo and Ryukyu Oke Hiden Motobu Udundi. Uehara Sensei left several Menkyo holders in Uundi.

Best

Rob Rivers
Motobu Udundi


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## Jack Meower (Jun 6, 2009)

I read the book a few years back and enjoyed it.


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## Todd (Jun 8, 2009)

robertmrivers said:


> There are no kata in Motobu Udundi (the proper name of Choyu Motobu's lineage). Even the kata people see during demonstrations with Uehara Sensei are a recent (30 years) incarnation used to provide a medium of practice in Meutudi and Mutudi (principles of Udundi) and koneridi.
> 
> Interviews with Uehara Sensei tell of he and Choyu Sensei being asked to demonstrate during enbu but they never demonstrated Udundi (its secret, afterall). They would instead demonstrate Ufukun (Kusanku-like kata).
> 
> ...



Pardon me for being confused, but...

There are no kata in the system, yet they demonstrate kata under the name "Motobu Udundi"?  The system is secret yet it is promoted on websites and you post about it on an Internet discussion forum?


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## robertmrivers (Jun 10, 2009)

Mutudi is a concept, just as "muchimi" or "hikite" is...one that cannot be explained on a forum as there is no way of putting a demonstration of the concept into the printed word. Mutudi practice is just that...mutudi practice.

While it looks like a kata, it is not. Think of a class of practitioners lined up, bowing, stepping forward into a lunge punch, doing it three times forward, turning, doing it three times backwards, turning, doing it three more times forward, and then bowing. It is hardly a kata. It is kihon. Aikido classes do it with ashi-sabaki practice. Kendo classes do it up and down the floor. Iaido classes do it with the kiri practice.

However, it is oftentimes called kata...I even call it kata sometimes...why? Because people want to do kata. But, after one's first class practicing these "kata", what I have just explained is told to the students and the students are then able to understand the concept. 

It is important to note WHO is calling it kata...who is calling it "Motode 'Sanchin' " and all of the youtube terminology... it is the people posting the videos who DO NOT practice Motobu Udundi.

As for it being secret, the old adage that there are no secrets in the martial arts; there is only practice, practice, practice; is alive and well. However, of all the videos on the internet...and I have seen them all, there is not one that distinctly shows or explains what it is that is making the techniques work nor is it ever explained why. They are just demonstrations. These "omissions" or "misleading of the viewer techniques" are designed to hide the "secrets" (not really secret, just the internal principles of an art...all koryu have them).

The concept in Daito Ryu, for example, of the training ladder referred to as Aikijujutsu, Aikijutsu, and Aiki no Jutsu are a prime example of this method of koryu training. We have the same training stratification ranging from "Motobu Ryu" to "Motobu Udundi". 

People watching a demo or participating in a seminar are shown and taught the "omote" side of a technique or series of techniques. But, the "kage" side is not taught openly and is taught internally at the dojo to actual members.

Your confusion is pardoned.

I am willing to answer any questions one might have concerning these arts. They are taught a little more openly nowadays. I am actually hosting and traveling a bit this summer teaching a "Motobu Family Martial Arts Seminar Series". Be more than happy to share the wealth with anyone interested.

Cheers

Robert M. Rivers
Motobu Udundi Kobujutsu
6th Dan
www.shin-dojo.com


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## Uchinanchu (Jun 11, 2009)

I used to watch Uehara sensei training (throwing/locking up) his students at Sunset Beach on Sunday mornings here in Okinawa.  What an interesting man he was!  He dressed as if he were going to work in a garden (wearing his farmers hat and gloves, with street clothes on), while all his students wore gis.  He was an amazing man with extraordinary martial ability (especially for someone as old as he was)!


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## twendkata71 (Jun 11, 2009)

*A few questions I have is, *
*one, can you get a direct flight to Okinawa? How much? *
*two, I am planning a trip to Tokyo next march and I would like to visit Naha city while i'm there, anyone know how much a quick round trip flight from tokyo to Naha is? *
*three, does anyone have the street address for the Akemine dojo(ryukyu kobudo hozon shikokai)?*
*And last, is there a store in Naha where they custom make sai to your specifications? The shureido sai are fine, but  I want a pair that is custom for me(weight,length,etc.) and I don't want to pay a fortune for them. *
*I realize this is a bit off topic. *
*One more question before I go, why is it that the Shureido black gi looks like it turns brown in photo's, or do they make a brown gi? I wear black uwagi for kobudo.*


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 11, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *A few questions I have is, *
> *one, can you get a direct flight to Okinawa? How much? *
> *two, I am planning a trip to Tokyo next march and I would like to visit Naha city while i'm there, anyone know how much a quick round trip flight from tokyo to Naha is? *
> *three, does anyone have the street address for the Akemine dojo(ryukyu kobudo hozon shikokai)?*
> ...


Tim,
Email me about the sai.


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## Todd (Jun 11, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *A few questions I have is, *
> *one, can you get a direct flight to Okinawa? How much? *
> *two, I am planning a trip to Tokyo next march and I would like to visit Naha city while i'm there, anyone know how much a quick round trip flight from tokyo to Naha is? *


You can fly to Okinawa direct from Tokyo.  JAL, ANA, and Skymark all have daily flights.  If you are buying a USA--->Japan ticket, why not include a stop in Naha on that ticket?  If you do want to pick up the ticket separately, all three airlines have online reservation systems to allow you to check dates and prices.

http://www.jal.co.jp/en/
http://www.ana.co.jp/asw/index.jsp?type=e
http://www.skymark.co.jp/en/




> *three, does anyone have the street address for the Akemine dojo(ryukyu kobudo hozon shikokai)?*



677-3 Nesabu, Tomigusuku Shi, Okinawa, Japan, 901-0205
http://www.ryukyu-kobudo.com/


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## Uchinanchu (Jun 12, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *A few questions I have is, *
> *one, can you get a direct flight to Okinawa? How much? *
> *two, I am planning a trip to Tokyo next march and I would like to visit Naha city while i'm there, anyone know how much a quick round trip flight from tokyo to Naha is? *
> *three, does anyone have the street address for the Akemine dojo(ryukyu kobudo hozon shikokai)?*
> ...


1.  Flights costs vary month-to-month (locally).  I have no idea about international costs these days (I have not left the island in over 10 years).  I can tell you this though, it would be much cheaper for you to buy your tickets several months in advance, if you were planning a trip in the summer.  The summer season prices go way up due to tourism.
2.  No idea on the sai, but if you are looking to have a pair custom made for you while you are here, they certainly will NOT be cheap.  You are probably better off having someone machine you a pair, stateside (or wherever it is you live locally).
3.  I have never seen a black shureido gi, but then again, I have never asked for one.  Sorry, I know that is not very helpful.  I can tell you though, that if they do, I am sure it is of very good quality (just like the rest of their products).  I have been wearing the same gi (heavy weight masters series) for the past 11 years!  It is getting a bit freyed now though.


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## twendkata71 (Jun 12, 2009)

*Thank you for the information. I will ask Master Domeitrich about the location of the Akemine dojo.  As far as the Black shureido gi. I really only want the top for kobudo. My plan is to go next March.  I plan on visiting the Hirota store and the Tokaido store while in tokyo. *
*Then if I make it to Naha I will stop by the Shureido store. *


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