# Does punching vertically really decrease the chances of breaking your hands? How do you do so when you hit that way?



## Bullsherdog (Sep 23, 2021)

I read that old bare knuckle boxers rarely suffered hand fractures because they punched vertically instead of the horizontal punches today. In addition many existing martial arts such as Wing Chun punch vertically exactly for the reason to prevent injuries to the hand.

However I tried hitting a punching bag without gloves recently using vertical fists and my hands were sore and hurting by the end of the workout! So I am doubting this. However even Bruce Lee tended to prefer vertical hits irl in contrast to his movies when fighting in the streets without gloves so there must be something I'm missing.

Can anyone clarify? I mean Jack Dempsey even stated when he was a bouncer he preferred vertical punches for safety reasons despite fighting primarily as a boxing battler in the streets and many street boxing systems take a page or two from Jack Dempsey's experiences! Not to mention many Krav strikes are vertical fists in the way bare knuckle boxing before Marquis Queensberry rules and Wing Chun fighters hit!


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 23, 2021)

Vertical or horizontal doesn't really matter. What matters is contact area and conditioning.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 23, 2021)

The major reason that you use the vertical fist instead of the horizontal fist is to prevent your elbow joint to be cracked.

When you use the 

- vertical fist, your elbow joint is facing downward.
- horizontal fist, your elbow joint is facing side way.

When your opponent uses one arm to hit on your forearm, and use the other arm to hit on your elbow joint, he can crack you elbow joint when your elbow joint is facing sideway instead of facing downward.


----------



## seasoned (Sep 23, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The major reason that you use the vertical fist instead of the horizontal fist is to prevent your elbow joint to be cracked.
> 
> When you use the
> 
> ...


In Okinawan GoJu close gap in armpit and elbow will always point down....


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 23, 2021)

seasoned said:


> In Okinawan GoJu close gap in armpit and elbow will always point down....


Old MA saying said one should never expose elbow joint to his opponent. The horizontal punch has the final rotation that can generate more power. But it can be overcommit and expose the elbow joint too.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 23, 2021)

Bullsherdog said:


> I read that old bare knuckle boxers rarely suffered hand fractures because they punched vertically instead of the horizontal punches today.


If they had fewer fractures then it's probably because they trained accuracy more than today's boxers.   Being able to place punches is an over looked skill.  Most people don't think about it because they wear gloves.  

But like what you learn when you hit the heavy bag.  You can't just hit it any ole way you want to.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Sep 24, 2021)

Can't see why a vertical punch would hurt more than a horizontal one from hitting the bag - if, of course, it's done correctly with the fist and wrist held proper.  The exception being maybe tearing the knuckle skin from twisting while in contact with the bag.

_KFWang_ brings up a good point re: the elbow turning out to the side a little in a horizontal punch, exposing it for possible break, although _seasoned_'s point about the elbow flaring away (a flaw seen even in black belts) from the body also causing the elbow turning out is equally valid. (There are a couple of other reasons to keep the elbow brushing the body when punching as well.)

Several styles of kung fu and karate have a vertical punch in their toolbox.  My style uses it almost exclusively for its speed and allowing the fist to snap back afterwards.

Another consideration is if punching from a more extended guard, rather than a chamber near the hip, is that being much closer to the contact point the punch lands quickly and has not the distance or time to effect a full twist.

But, as _Dirty Dog_ said, it often doesn't matter.  Both ways will cause pain to the opponent.  For a general rule, I'd say vertical a jab from an extended guard, and if you've got the time and space, feel free to do the twist with the reverse punch.


----------



## Cynik75 (Sep 24, 2021)

Bullsherdog said:


> I read that old bare knuckle boxers rarely suffered hand fractures because they punched vertically instead of the horizontal punches today.


First of all: theye were aiming mostly to the sof part of body (belly) - this is the reason why their stance ( look at old phothos and graphics) was more similar to wing chun than to nowadays boxing..
And probably they were not going for KO as much as modern boxers (less power in punches to avoid hurting hands).


----------



## seasoned (Sep 24, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Old MA saying said one should never expose elbow joint to his opponent. The horizontal punch has the final rotation that can generate more power. But it can be overcommit and expose the elbow joint too.


Exactly,  I total agree.


seasoned said:


> In Okinawan GoJu close gap in armpit and elbow will always point down....


The shoulders are held down naturally while the upper arm pinches the pectoral muscles and the elbows scrape the rib cage. While punching this should be adhered to from day one.....


----------



## Martial D (Sep 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If they had fewer fractures then it's probably because they trained accuracy more than today's boxers.   Being able to place punches is an over looked skill.  Most people don't think about it because they wear gloves.
> 
> But like what you learn when you hit the heavy bag.  You can't just hit it any ole way you want to.


Where do you even come up with this stuff. Like..what do you even base it on? This is patently false. What exactly do you think focus mit's are for? Speed bags? 

Did you really just claim people that train to win fights don't focus on placing their strikes to areas that allow that to happen?

Seriously dude.. actually train with people that do combat sports before making bogus claims about it.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 24, 2021)

Bullsherdog said:


> I read that old bare knuckle boxers rarely suffered hand fractures because they punched vertically instead of the horizontal punches today. In addition many existing martial arts such as Wing Chun punch vertically exactly for the reason to prevent injuries to the hand.
> 
> However I tried hitting a punching bag without gloves recently using vertical fists and my hands were sore and hurting by the end of the workout! So I am doubting this. However even Bruce Lee tended to prefer vertical hits irl in contrast to his movies when fighting in the streets without gloves so there must be something I'm missing.
> 
> Can anyone clarify? I mean Jack Dempsey even stated when he was a bouncer he preferred vertical punches for safety reasons despite fighting primarily as a boxing battler in the streets and many street boxing systems take a page or two from Jack Dempsey's experiences! Not to mention many Krav strikes are vertical fists in the way bare knuckle boxing before Marquis Queensberry rules and Wing Chun fighters hit!


In WC the fist is vertical for structural reasons..allowing the elbow to line up behind the strike(low elbow power) and to keep the strike on center, straighter, to allow it a more direct route up the middle to pass though the guard.

For this reason (less angles of attack) the fist is more likely to land square, this reducing chance of injury.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 24, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Old MA saying said one should never expose elbow joint to his opponent. The horizontal punch has the final rotation that can generate more power. But it can be overcommit and expose the elbow joint too.


I agree with this, but I'm not a fan of the logic that people go from here to suggest we should not use horizontal punch. It's basically saying "there's a better way to punch with more power, but it requires more effort to do it correctly, so we will do the less effective way because it's slightly easier".

If there's a structural or a flow reason for it, I'm all for it, but not because you're worried people will flare their elbow.


----------



## seasoned (Sep 24, 2021)

My take on this and I taught it for years is......the horizontal punch goes through 4 stages. (1) Chamber, (2) low close punch before first twist, (3) vertical after first twist, (4) horizontal on final extension... All depending on distance from opponent.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 24, 2021)

seasoned said:


> My take on this and I taught it for years is......the horizontal punch goes through 4 stages. (1) Chamber, (2) low close punch before first twist, (3) vertical after first twist, (4) horizontal on final extension... All depending on distance from opponent.


I will simply point out that it depends on the discipline in which it is taught and practiced.  In the system that I train, the palm remains facing down for the entire time.  There is no twist of the forearm (which perhaps contributes to minimal or no flaring of the elbow) and we do not anchor or chamber or travel through the hip.  The path is through the ribs, as close to the torso as possible.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 24, 2021)

seasoned said:


> My take on this and I taught it for years is......the horizontal punch goes through 4 stages. (1) Chamber, (2) low close punch before first twist, (3) vertical after first twist, (4) horizontal on final extension... All depending on distance from opponent.


This is how I've learned and taught it as well. Although I have adapted to going from a horizontal to a 45% punch personally when sparring, as I've found that it does a better job of getting through guards. 
If I were to go back to teaching, I would still teach fully horizontal twist, under the concept of train big fight small.


----------



## seasoned (Sep 24, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This is how I've learned and taught it as well. Although I have adapted to going from a horizontal to a 45% punch personally when sparring, as I've found that it does a better job of getting through guards.
> If I were to go back to teaching, I would still teach fully horizontal twist, under the concept of train big fight small.


We are on the same page.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Sep 24, 2021)

I think it has more to do with the conditioning bare knuckle boxers had of their hands and that boxing gloves don't allow one to clench their fist as tightly.


----------



## seasoned (Sep 24, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I will simply point out that it depends on the discipline in which it is taught and practiced.  In the system that I train, the palm remains facing down for the entire time.  There is no twist of the forearm (which perhaps contributes to minimal or no flaring of the elbow) and we do not anchor or chamber or travel through the hip.  The path is through the ribs, as close to the torso as possible.


Thanks for sharing, Flying Crane.  it defiantly depends on the discipline in which it is taught and practiced. I always felt it a huge plus to share and practice with people from different disciplines. So much to consider.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Sep 24, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If there's a structural or a flow reason for it, I'm all for it, but not because you're worried people will flare their elbow.


Practicality is always in fashion.  

Flaring the elbow - there _is _a structural reason not to do it during a straight  punch.  If the elbow is out, it's not directly behind the fist providing power and support on impact.  And it's easier to see that a punch is coming due to the lateral movement of the elbow.   Also, wasted motion is the definition of inefficiency.  

These things are true no matter whether you twist the punch or not.  My experience is that twisting the horizontal punch _does_ lend itself to some elbow flare and rotation, but disciplined practice can overcome this.

(I have seen world champion kata competitors - a couple of females in particular - flare their elbows out on you-tube which turns their punch halfway into a backfist.  Maybe it makes a louder gi snap or looks faster?  Anyway, I'd deduct for that.  Sacrificing function for special effects is not my cup of tea.)  



Personally, my reverse (vertical) punches _with full extension_ do rotate 25-33% or so, but this is not a practiced movement, rather just a natural one, letting the punch do its own thing. I still consider it a vertical punch, though, due to most of its other elements and mechanics.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 24, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Practicality is always in fashion.
> 
> Flaring the elbow - there _is _a structural reason not to do it during a straight  punch.  If the elbow is out, it's not directly behind the fist providing power and support on impact.  And it's easier to see that a punch is coming due to the lateral movement of the elbow.   Also, wasted motion is the definition of inefficiency.


Just to clarify, I agree that structurally and practically, flaring your elbow is a bad idea. My point was more what you post in the next paragraph-that disciplined practice can overcome it, so it should not be part of the consideration on which punch to use.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 24, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I would still teach fully horizontal twist,


The fully horizontal twist has advantage that you can change your straight punch into a spiral punch that go over your opponent's arm and still hit him (like an overhand).

IMO, most of the time in MA, there is no right or wrong but trade off.


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Sep 24, 2021)

I punch horizontal specially in the face you do a vertical punch at solar plexus


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 25, 2021)

Bullsherdog said:


> I read that old bare knuckle boxers rarely suffered hand fractures because they punched vertically instead of the horizontal punches today. In addition many existing martial arts such as Wing Chun punch vertically exactly for the reason to prevent injuries to the hand.
> 
> However I tried hitting a punching bag without gloves recently using vertical fists and my hands were sore and hurting by the end of the workout! So I am doubting this. However even Bruce Lee tended to prefer vertical hits irl in contrast to his movies when fighting in the streets without gloves so there must be something I'm missing.
> 
> Can anyone clarify? I mean Jack Dempsey even stated when he was a bouncer he preferred vertical punches for safety reasons despite fighting primarily as a boxing battler in the streets and many street boxing systems take a page or two from Jack Dempsey's experiences! Not to mention many Krav strikes are vertical fists in the way bare knuckle boxing before Marquis Queensberry rules and Wing Chun fighters hit!


It is a great question. I think the short answer is it depends primarily on the position of both people. 
Think of how the wrist joint moves. There is more range of motion in the horizontal position so for high (or very low) punches it think it is the safer position. 
For punches in a more neutral range I don’t think one position is any safer that the other, as far as the wrist is concerned. 
If you subscribe to using the first two knuckles for a correct punch, then for me, a vertical punch make this harder. 
There are so many body position nuances that factor into this question. And they can factor out many of hazards for either punch. If you watch the body of some of the great punchers you can see this.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 25, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Where do you even come up with this stuff. Like..what do you even base it on? This is patently false. What exactly do you think focus mit's are for? Speed bags?


I'll explain it this way. Maybe I wasn't detailed enough:
If I'm wearing boxing gloves then I'm trying to hit the mit. When I'm not wearing gloves I'm trying to hit specific areas of the mit. Now in regards to striking the actual head.

If I'm wearing boxing gloves then I'm trying to hit wider area of the head.  Punch the face, Punch under the chin, Punch the side of the face.   When I'm not wearing gloves I'm trying to hit specific area of the head.  Punch jaw hinge, Punch bone under eye, Punch temple, Punch ear, Punch back of head, Punch Top of head

Punching mits focus area for people who where gloves is this small dot if the gloves have a dot.  The focus mits are about the size of someone's head.






When you fight without gloves the areas that you aim for looks like this. I'm no longer trying to strike a general area.  If his head was a focus mit then there would be 2 or 3 dots on it and you aim for those dots.




Maybe this clears things up as to what I'm talking about when I say training accuracy.  I don't wear boxing gloves or gloves when I train train my striking so this is what accuracy will always mean for me.  For me focus mitts are more like general accuracy.  Like if I want to hit the front or side of the face.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 25, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Seriously dude.. actually train with people that do combat sports before making bogus claims about it.


I have trained with people who do combat sports. This chart and the concept of accuracy is not part of their training, mainly because the size of the gloves used in combat sports are often too big for this type of accuracy.  You aren't going to get this level of accuracy by training with gloves on.   It would be a waste of time to train this type of accuracy if you fight with gloves on.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 25, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I agree with this, but I'm not a fan of the logic that people go from here to suggest we should not use horizontal punch. It's basically saying "there's a better way to punch with more power, but it requires more effort to do it correctly, so we will do the less effective way because it's slightly easier".
> 
> If there's a structural or a flow reason for it, I'm all for it, but not because you're worried people will flare their elbow.


The biggest problem with elbow flare isn't that someone will use it as an opportunity to crank the elbow.  While technically it's possible, it is also technically very difficult.   The more the elbow flares out the less effective the punch is and the easier it is to take advantage of it.  But it's not something that can be learned in 2 week seminar.  The concept is easy but the application is going to take a few years.

I think the real danger is not that the elbow flares, but what position the elbow is in at the end of the punch.  "Wave hands like clouds" clouds has an arm break in it that is used against vertical punches.  It's at the transition stage where one hand sinks and the other hand rises. This can be used when the elbow is pointing down.  Horizontal punches tend to be at higher risk, I've seen examples of this in boxing where a punch gets caught under the opponent arm's arm pit.  A simple twist of the body can damage the elbow.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The biggest problem with elbow flare isn't that someone will use it as an opportunity to crank the elbow.  While technically it's possible, it is also technically very difficult.   The more the elbow flares out the less effective the punch is and the easier it is to take advantage of it.  But it's not something that can be learned in 2 week seminar.  The concept is easy but the application is going to take a few years.
> 
> I think the real danger is not that the elbow flares, but what position the elbow is in at the end of the punch.  "Wave hands like clouds" clouds has an arm break in it that is used against vertical punches.  It's at the transition stage where one hand sinks and the other hand rises. This can be used when the elbow is pointing down.  Horizontal punches tend to be at higher risk, I've seen examples of this in boxing where a punch gets caught under the opponent arm's arm pit.  A simple twist of the body can damage the elbow.


Yup. Biggest issue is that they're damaging their elbow. I equate it to tennis elbow. Which is why whenever I've taught people punching, I have them first learn to throw jab/cross (or front-two-knuckle/reverse punch depending on what I'm teaching), against a wall. This way if their elbow flares, they actually feel it hit their elbow and mimic the actual damage in a tactile way. It does a good job of nipping that habit before it starts.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I have trained with people who do combat sports. This chart and the concept of accuracy is not part of their training, mainly because the size of the gloves used in combat sports are often too big for this type of accuracy.  You aren't going to get this level of accuracy by training with gloves on.   It would be a waste of time to train this type of accuracy if you fight with gloves on.
> View attachment 27346


What? You're hilarious.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 25, 2021)

Martial D said:


> What? You're hilarious.


There's nothing like a well thought out and presented rebuttal to support your opinion over that of another. You've certainly convinced me!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The major reason that you use the vertical fist instead of the horizontal fist is to prevent your elbow joint to be cracked.
> 
> When you use the
> 
> ...


I can punch both vertical fist and horizontal fist with that elbow down. We teach beginners the horizontal fist and require the elbow down.


----------



## seasoned (Sep 25, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This is how I've learned and taught it as well. Although I have adapted to going from a horizontal to a 45% punch personally when sparring, as I've found that it does a better job of getting through guards.
> If I were to go back to teaching, I would still teach fully horizontal twist, under the concept of train big fight small.


And that in Okinawan GoJu is where you begin to learn power distribution and economy of motion. "Big circular moves become small".... As in all blocks are taught large and circular, but end up, as parry or deflects..............or, strikes)


----------



## seasoned (Sep 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I can punch both vertical fist and horizontal fist with that elbow down. We teach beginners the horizontal fist and require the elbow down.


Indeed, thank you!!


----------



## seasoned (Sep 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If they had fewer fractures then it's probably because they trained accuracy more than today's boxers.   Being able to place punches is an over looked skill.  Most people don't think about it because they wear gloves.
> 
> But like what you learn when you hit the heavy bag.  You can't just hit it any ole way you want to.


Gloved hands ko because of shock value. The 2 knuckle fist strike pin points the power for penetration.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 25, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> There's nothing like a well thought out and presented rebuttal to support your opinion over that of another. You've certainly convinced me!


Some people think the approach to punching with Gloves on is the same as punching with gloves off.  I've met a lot of people who used to think that too.  That perspective lasted as long as the skin on their knuckles, which was about 8 seconds of hard punching


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 25, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yup. Biggest issue is that they're damaging their elbow. I equate it to tennis elbow. Which is why whenever I've taught people punching, I have them first learn to throw jab/cross (or front-two-knuckle/reverse punch depending on what I'm teaching), against a wall. This way if their elbow flares, they actually feel it hit their elbow and mimic the actual damage in a tactile way. It does a good job of nipping that habit before it starts.


I like this exercise.  If there is a good at home training exercise. That one would be my first choice.  I still use it today.  I stand next to the wall and do light shadow boxing.  

I think I've adopted the concept of Wing Chun fighting in a tight alley.  Not that I'll be fighting in one of these. lol.  The limited size area helps me to understand the limitations and variations of long circular punches.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 25, 2021)

If you have right side forward and your opponent has left side forward, when your opponent throws a left straight punch, how difficult is it for you to use your right arm to block (to your right) on his left elbow joint, and at the same time to use your left hand to block (to your right) on his left forearm?

If you go into the woods, and use this technique to break 1000 tree branches, you may be able to develop this skill.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 26, 2021)

seasoned said:


> And that in Okinawan GoJu is where you begin to learn power distribution and economy of motion. "Big circular moves become small".... As in all blocks are taught large and circular, but end up, as parry or deflects..............or, strikes)


I’ve  long suspected there’s more Goju (autocorrect changes that to “agony” ) influence in NGA than is documented.


----------



## seasoned (Sep 26, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Vertical or horizontal doesn't really matter. What matters is contact area and conditioning.


DD, your post has not gotten the recognition it deserves. In 12 words you summed up what some of us tried to do in hundreds.....


----------



## drop bear (Sep 27, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> First of all: theye were aiming mostly to the sof part of body (belly) - this is the reason why their stance ( look at old phothos and graphics) was more similar to wing chun than to nowadays boxing..
> And probably they were not going for KO as much as modern boxers (less power in punches to avoid hurting hands).



I have seen plenty of boxers break their hands punching the body.

Mostly when the other guy is putting an elbow in the way to defend it.


----------



## punisher73 (Sep 28, 2021)

Vertical vs. Horizontal?  I think the weapon should contour the target area and goal of the strike.  

For example, if I am punching under the chin the strike will have the palm facing me.  If I am punching to the bladder, the palm will still be facing me, but oriented downwards.  

There are some boxers that use an inverted vertical fist ( first rotates until the thumb points straight down) while jabbing because they feel it allows the shoulder to more naturally come up to protect the side of their jaw.

It all depends on what you want to do.


----------



## wolfeyes2323 (Sep 28, 2021)

Bullsherdog said:


> I read that old bare knuckle boxers rarely suffered hand fractures because they punched vertically instead of the horizontal punches today. In addition many existing martial arts such as Wing Chun punch vertically exactly for the reason to prevent injuries to the hand.
> 
> However I tried hitting a punching bag without gloves recently using vertical fists and my hands were sore and hurting by the end of the workout! So I am doubting this. However even Bruce Lee tended to prefer vertical hits irl in contrast to his movies when fighting in the streets without gloves so there must be something I'm missing.
> 
> Can anyone clarify? I mean Jack Dempsey even stated when he was a bouncer he preferred vertical punches for safety reasons despite fighting primarily as a boxing battler in the streets and many street boxing systems take a page or two from Jack Dempsey's experiences! Not to mention many Krav strikes are vertical fists in the way bare knuckle boxing before Marquis Queensberry rules and Wing Chun fighters hit!


preventing injury to your hands when striking 
has to do with a straight wrist and the alignment 
of striking knuckles to the Radius bone in the arm.
One punch does not work for all striking.
A vertical fist is used to attack the center line,
If striking overhand or hooking , the fist must be
rotated or over-rotated, to maintain correct 
alignment when striking .
Even practicing with correct alignment your hands
are going to be sore ,  your knuckles will sometimes
swell, it is your bodies reaction to the stress of 
contact.


----------



## nigebj (Sep 28, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I can punch both vertical fist and horizontal fist with that elbow down. We teach beginners the horizontal fist and require the elbow down.


Mechanically I can only make elbow at or close to 45 degrees (for horizontal strike), or fist at 45 degrees with elbow vertical. Attempting to keep elbow down, and make fully horizontal strike it feels like my wrist is structurally very weak. 

Obviously structurally a vertical punch supports a fully vertical elbow and mechanically the strike has less directions of motion than a horizontal punch TKD taught me the power and strength of twisting (I repeat the claim, am not actually endorsing it's validity in this statement). 

JKD taught the speed and structural benefit of vertical. 

In more recently in SD training taught by someone with exposure to many disciplines over many years (MA, military, and law enforcement - as student and trainer)  the vertical punch was taught as faster and structurally less risky from most defensive postures.

Obviously there are places for both - and horizontal orientation feels more sensible for an upper cut, vertical for a jab (having tried both in the above scenarios).

When I first boxed more than 30 years ago (sh*t closer to 40!) every new kids who joined the gym bust their hand within a few weeks of joining OUTSIDE of the gym using over confidence, and poor technique to hit someone in the "wrong" place - usually fist to head. Gloves change everything.


----------



## AIKIKENJITSU (Sep 28, 2021)

Bullsherdog said:


> I read that old bare knuckle boxers rarely suffered hand fractures because they punched vertically instead of the horizontal punches today. In addition many existing martial arts such as Wing Chun punch vertically exactly for the reason to prevent injuries to the hand.
> 
> However I tried hitting a punching bag without gloves recently using vertical fists and my hands were sore and hurting by the end of the workout! So I am doubting this. However even Bruce Lee tended to prefer vertical hits irl in contrast to his movies when fighting in the streets without gloves so there must be something I'm missing.
> 
> Can anyone clarify? I mean Jack Dempsey even stated when he was a bouncer he preferred vertical punches for safety reasons despite fighting primarily as a boxing battler in the streets and many street boxing systems take a page or two from Jack Dempsey's experiences! Not to mention many Krav strikes are vertical fists in the way bare knuckle boxing before Marquis Queensberry rules and Wing Chun fighters hit!


I've been teaching martial arts for 52 years and I went through what you are going through. The short version: vertical punching is safer and less chance of breaking your wrist. Vertical punch, you use the the forefinger and middle finger knuckles. From there you can drop it into a uppercut to the target. Bend your fist slilghtly downward so to strike with two knuckles. 
Vertical fist gives less chance of you breaking your wrist.
Sifu


----------



## Grandmaster Yue men quan (Sep 28, 2021)

In order to not plagiarize. Pick up a copy of Bruce Lee's 1 and 3 inch punch it pretty much tells you exactly how to do it.


----------



## cane56 (Sep 28, 2021)

I think this is an interesting topic. I trained in the 70s and up till yesterday, day off for me. So my history goes back quite aways. If you practice like a boxer which I also done you'll be using a glove and probably hitting a bag. Your hands will be wrapped and the chance of rolling your fist or lessen. In my early days of bouncing I always tried to use psychology first. Everybody knew me and everybody knew that I would fight. Most bar fights are not really a fight, they are a tough guy picking on somebody. If you practice on a bag and you don't use gloves and wraps you can rotate your hand to a two knuckle punch. Also doing push-ups on the two knuckles strengthens your wrist and causes your hand not to roll. Normally I would use a straight punch to the solar plexus without rotation when I was bouncing. I have never broke my hand in either straight punch or a rotation punch. In the street usually the first guy to connect with a strong punch wins. Especially if the other guy has never really been hit. And I can't really answer this! Because without rotation there's not as much power. But without rotation less chance of breaking the small pinky in the metal carpal. This is an excellent question for a yellow belt.


----------



## krowe (Sep 28, 2021)

Bullsherdog said:


> I read that old bare knuckle boxers rarely suffered hand fractures because they punched vertically instead of the horizontal punches today. In addition many existing martial arts such as Wing Chun punch vertically exactly for the reason to prevent injuries to the hand.
> 
> However I tried hitting a punching bag without gloves recently using vertical fists and my hands were sore and hurting by the end of the workout! So I am doubting this. However even Bruce Lee tended to prefer vertical hits irl in contrast to his movies when fighting in the streets without gloves so there must be something I'm missing.
> 
> Can anyone clarify? I mean Jack Dempsey even stated when he was a bouncer he preferred vertical punches for safety reasons despite fighting primarily as a boxing battler in the streets and many street boxing systems take a page or two from Jack Dempsey's experiences! Not to mention many Krav strikes are vertical fists in the way bare knuckle boxing before Marquis Queensberry rules and Wing Chun fighters hit!


Its more about where you strike and conditioning. You need to understand that bareknuckle or simly no gloves no wraps fighting is fundamentally different from modern boxing. Part of the reason is that unless you are doing a sport there are no rules against grabbing, pulling, grappling, etc. Secondly there are more options for surfaces of the hand and fist to strike with and though there may no rules there are laws regarding self defense that differ state by state. Unlike with gloves and wraps which allow for more reckless and high impact striking due to the wrist and knuckle support. --This is not to say gloved fighters do not study the nuances of different striking methods or use good form at high levels of skill. Boxing is a very refined science and does cover biomechanics and bone alignment etc.--- the contours of the naked hand/fist and mechanics/placement of the strike tend to matter more in bareknuckle not only due to the now increased versatility of having ones hands, wrist, and fingers free, but also due to safety precautions and the combat strategies these factors create. A bareknuckle fighter must be much more concious of executing clean strikes and tends to be more mindful of the force of their punch to avoid breaking their hands on bone. Conditioning of course plays a role as well both for the skin and for the tissue underneath; bones, tendons, muscle. Much of this is shared with gloved combat sports, it is more a matter of emphasis out of necessity and differences between weapon shape between gloved/wrapped and no gloves/wraps. How that emphasis changes the fighting tactics is the difference maker. Bareknuckle fighters often use all three fist positions ( and varieties of contact point as well ) depending on what effect they want to have on the target and where on the body they are targetting. It can also differ stylisticly between individuals. Formal bareknuckle fighting leagues have their own rules and standards that I am not as familiar with. There are a lot of different ways to train and condition barehanded/fist


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Sep 28, 2021)

Vertical punch is good. Thumb on top stabilizes the wrist, better.


----------



## lklawson (Sep 29, 2021)

Bullsherdog said:


> I read that old bare knuckle boxers rarely suffered hand fractures because they punched vertically instead of the horizontal punches today.


It was a dual pronged path of both technique and conditioning:


			http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/breakyourhand/breakyourhand.html
		


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Jusroc (Sep 30, 2021)

I think that if you want to bare knuckle box, you will need to condition your hands a great deal before they stop being sore.

Some karate styles included this style of conditioning as part of their practice.
Some traditional styles also included their own style of conditioning.

I read that Mas Oyama, the founder of Kyokushin did all sorts of training to help strengthen his wrists and condition his hands. I believe hand stands on the knuckles is part of his training to develop strong powerful wrists.

Boxers also have several styles of training to help develop their wrist strength. Apart from weights,
they use the speed ball and floor to ceiling bag. 

Some bare knuckle boxers were known to soak their knuckles in white spirit daily, in order to harden the skin.

I think if you are keen to develop bare knuckle conditioning, to consider buying all the books you can on the subject, to see find out how the fighters have approached the practice through history.

Be careful however, as extensive trauma to the hands will eventually cause arthritis in old age.
At one of the gyms i used to go to I met this nice old man, a little smaller than me.
He was in his 80s, He was a champion boxer, won loads of local amateur fights.

He invited me to his house to show his rather large collection of trophies, which were very impressive.

He was suffering from dementia I guess due to excessive head trauma likely due to his extensive experience as a boxer.

He also showed me his hands, in both his hands he had chronic arthritis, both his hands looked like squashed spiders that had been stamped on. He said he no longer could close his hands into a fist and it was very painful. 

So. be aware that your training may result in long term health problems in the long term.

Unless you want to be the next Gypsy King Bare knuckle boxer
Perhaps consider buying some gloves that can be worn on the street? Gel wrap gloves? May make you look a bit strange though.


----------



## Christopher Adamchek (Oct 1, 2021)

vertical punch with the elbow pointed down is great for trapping range striking and the angles of adjustment on it better allow anatomical striking ie striking on the line of the target rather then just into a target which protects your hand.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> I think that if you want to bare knuckle box, you will need to condition your hands a great deal before they stop being sore.
> 
> Some karate styles included this style of conditioning as part of their practice.
> Some traditional styles also included their own style of conditioning.
> ...


Honestly, I find that regular, but not excessive, time working on a heavy bag (I like one that weighs about half of my body weight), without using any kind of wraps or gloves, does a good job of teaching you how to properly align the wrist so you can punch without injury, and develops resistance to withstand that impact trauma.  It doesnt mean that you can punch a concrete wall without injury. But you can slug away for a time and not develop injuries, including those that might show up later in the form of arthritis.  Special push-ups or handstands might be useful, but definitely not critical.  

I think once or twice a week is plenty, for those who aren’t trying to actually become a full-contact competiton champion.  I spend about an hour at a time, but I am working on many types of hand strikes, using all parts of the hand, not just straight punches for an hour.  

That is my input.  You need to hit the bag without the protection of gloves and wraps, so that you develop the ability to really hit something without the kind of support and protection that is used in a competition.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Oct 7, 2021)

Interesting topic I’ve been exploring for some time and agree elbow down is the best way to ensure the punch is structurally sound.  For years I tended to go with a 45degree fist but have recently happened onto Jack Dempsey’s book that explains his theory on the shoulder whirl.  Currently looking to see if it is a better fit because it does seem to have its advantages over what I am currently doing.

In any event interesting comments on the thread.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 8, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Interesting topic I’ve been exploring for some time and agree elbow down is the best way to ensure the punch is structurally sound.  For years I tended to go with a 45degree fist but have recently happened onto Jack Dempsey’s book that explains his theory on the shoulder whirl.  Currently looking to see if it is a better fit because it does seem to have its advantages over what I am currently doing.
> 
> In any event interesting comments on the thread.


I've read on the shoulder whirl, and watched some videos on it. I'm not sure if the quality of what I watched/read was low, or if I'm just having trouble understanding it, but I could never comprehend it conceptually. The closest I could think of how it works is the bolo punch, but for straight punches rather than an uppercut variation.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Oct 8, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I've read on the shoulder whirl, and watched some videos on it. I'm not sure if the quality of what I watched/read was low, or if I'm just having trouble understanding it, but I could never comprehend it conceptually. The closest I could think of how it works is the bolo punch, but for straight punches rather than an uppercut variation.


My takeaway from the JD's shoulder whirl, as opposed to what I was doing before, is that by rotating the fist more at the end of the punch (while still maintaining the structure of the arm), I can take advantage of the elasticity in the muscles.   If you combine this idea with aggressive footwork, more forward momentum and power can be generated or so the theory goes.   I'm intrigued by the idea and am working on the application to see if it is a better fit that improves my game.

So yes kind of like the idea bolo punch but allows you to set up a tighter combination while moving forward, if that makes sense.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 8, 2021)

Ive never heard of the Jack Dempsey shoulder whirl.  That isn’t surprising, as I don’t follow combat sports and barely recognize the name Jack Dempsey.

So I looked it up.  Interesting approach.  It is actually similar, at least visually, to how we approach punching in Tibetan Crane.  The description I found indicates some difference that I might not agree with,  but if the overall approach is similar then yes, it is a very powerful method.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 8, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ive never heard of the Jack Dempsey shoulder whirl.  That isn’t surprising, as I don’t follow combat sports and barely recognize the name Jack Dempsey.
> 
> So I looked it up.  Interesting approach.  It is actually similar, at least visually, to how we approach punching in Tibetan Crane.  The description I found indicates some difference that I might not agree with,  but if the overall approach is similar then yes, it is a very powerful method.


Jack dempsey has a lot of interesting punching mechanics that aren't otherwise seen in boxing. I'm convinced he trained an eastern martial art at some point, as a lot of them follow ideas I have heard of in cma, but not in western martial arts. 

Even if you don't box or care for it, it's still interesting to read his books on the subject.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 8, 2021)

Ramsey Dewey recently posted a video covering some aspects of Dempsey's approach to punching.


----------



## Buka (Oct 8, 2021)

Jack Dempsey is the most over rated well known boxer of all time.

Had a nice restaurant in NY, though.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 11, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Practicality is always in fashion.
> 
> Flaring the elbow - there _is _a structural reason not to do it during a straight  punch.  If the elbow is out, it's not directly behind the fist providing power and support on impact.  And it's easier to see that a punch is coming due to the lateral movement of the elbow.   Also, wasted motion is the definition of inefficiency.
> 
> ...


Best example! Thanks for articulating that so well. I shoot both punches with elbow pointing down. Flaring is a bad habit that can be overcome. It is the humerus bone proximal supination that opposes the pronation in the forearm and supination of the saddle joint in the thumb in correct flat punch. The humerus bone is already under spiral torque in the body, which is one reason that proximal humerus fracture with displacement is so difficult to fix in the operating room.


----------



## 23rdwave (Oct 11, 2021)

Zuan Quan (drilling fist/water element) is a vertical punch. In Han Shi Yi Quan the punch is delivered at a 45-degree angle, trapping the opponent's arm. The drilling (rotation) movement causes the opponent to bend forward while the vertical path of the punch causes them to be moved backward. The fist need not make contact with the body to be effective. The trapping of the arm allows one to have control over the opponent. As far as breaking one's hand, a vertical punch may more frequently deliver a glancing blow that could protect the hand.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 12, 2021)

Buka said:


> Jack Dempsey is the most over rated well known boxer of all time.
> 
> Had a nice restaurant in NY, though.


I've watched what film remains of his fights.  He was good.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 12, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I can punch both vertical fist and horizontal fist with that elbow down. We teach beginners the horizontal fist and require the elbow down.


Yes! Thank you! I am shocked to see how rare this is in ma gyms. People with black belts that can’t make a proper fist are also usually unable to keep elbow pointed down during a flat punch. This is really foundational beginner training.


----------



## geezer (Oct 14, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yes! Thank you! I am shocked to see how rare this is in ma gyms. People with black belts that can’t make a *proper fist* are also usually unable to keep elbow pointed down during a flat punch. This is really foundational beginner training.


I've seen MA experts make fists a lot of different ways. So what's a "proper fist" to you?


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 15, 2021)

seasoned said:


> And that in Okinawan GoJu is where you begin to learn power distribution and economy of motion. "Big circular moves become small".... As in all blocks are taught large and circular, but end up, as parry or deflects..............or, strikes)


yeah they practice sticking hands too.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 15, 2021)

Wado Ryu is also a great school of Karate, shindo yoshin-ryu  in there.  sabaki to increase power. also to avoid and counter.


----------



## seasoned (Oct 15, 2021)

BigBalls said:


> yeah they practice sticking hands too.


Yes, Tensho kata taught just before BB translates to revolving hands, rotating palms or turning palms. This kata emphasizes the soft aspects of GoJu Ryu, and encompasses continuous, flowing movements....as you mentioned above.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 15, 2021)

geezer said:


> I've seen MA experts make fists a lot of different ways. So what's a "proper fist" to you?


I’m specifically talking about a flat punch here. I use several different fists in different forms. Leopard, ginger, hawk beak, mantis beak, etc. We were discussing elbow flare and vertical vs. horizontal (flat punch). elbow flare and a balled up fist (with 5th metacarpal dropped below the others) is how people fracture the 4th and 5th metacarpals( commonly called a boxer’s fracture) when striking. Boxers tape and wrap to prevent this and other injuries. The same result can be achieved by training the hand to stay in a similar position, and not allowing elbow flare. In MOST fist configurations the dorsal aspect of the hand should be level or flat, meaning that all knuckles line up on the same plane. This structure splints the 5th metacarpal helping to prevent fracture during a strike. This description is not complete, the thumb and saddle joint position are also important, as well as maintaining a space inside the fist and a straight, engaged wrist. I could go on and on about this. Does that help explain my comment? I am happy to elaborate if you like my boring dissertation and want more. It’s far easier to describe it in person than to describe it in text, so this may be lacking some details. Please weigh in on this.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 15, 2021)

seasoned said:


> Yes, Tensho kata taught just before BB translates to revolving hands, rotating palms or turning palms. This kata emphasizes the soft aspects of GoJu Ryu, and encompasses continuous, flowing movements....as you mentioned above.


I only saw it at a dojo but never tried it. I did however train in Wado Ryu.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 15, 2021)

Is it wrong to turn your elbow joint side way when you throw a straight punch?

Sometime you want to change your straight punch into a spiral punch. You have to turn your elbow joint sideway.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 15, 2021)

geezer said:


> I've seen MA experts make fists a lot of different ways. So what's a "proper fist" to you?


From my secret private vault.  This is such advanced level kung fu, I might catch a curse even sharing it.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 15, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> From my secret private vault.  This is such advanced level kung fu, I might catch a curse even sharing it.


The top one is called "large fist eye (大拳眼)". The bottom one is called "little fist eye (小拳眼)". Most CMA use the "fist face (拳面)" to strike.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The top one is called "large fist eye (大拳眼)". The bottom one is called "little fist eye (小拳眼)". Most CMA use the "fist face (拳面)" to strike.
> 
> View attachment 27437


Notice the structure of the thumb, index, and middle finger combined.

It's almost a Phoenix Eye fist, just slightly humbler.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is it wrong to turn your elbow joint side way when you throw a straight punch?
> 
> Sometime you want to change your straight punch into a spiral punch. You have to turn your elbow joint sideway.


There are very few absolute "wrong". There are definitely times I choose to let the elbow move out. Best reason off the top of my head is the boxer's move of guarding the face with that shoulder, which I do at times when sparring. You have to move the elbow to the outside for that - arm has to turn.


----------



## arnisador (Oct 16, 2021)

Tensho was my absolute favorite in Goju. I loved it.

I learned vertical-fist in my first style, Isshin-ryu, where the thumb went on top to "compact the fist and make it stronger" (!), and it was hard to lose that habit as I transitioned to Goju, then Uechi (also unique in its own way), and finally the FMA. I kept doing it automatically for years. But then I got vertical fist again in Wing Chun and in JKD, including sometimes in a boxer's hook in the latter.

I think of an overhand which might over-rotate and, e.g., some Ryukyu Kempo groups doing only a 3/4 rotation, and a shovel uppercut that might be palm-up, and I am far from convinced that there is a "special" orientation for the fist that matters more than what's physiologically comfortable/aligned within a given movement.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is it wrong to turn your elbow joint side way when you throw a straight punch?
> 
> Sometime you want to change your straight punch into a spiral punch. You have to turn your elbow joint sideway.


You or your style may name and define things differently than I do. I can’t see what you call a straight punch vs spiral punch. I had believed I was specific in my description earlier in the thread. Perhaps someone more articulate than I am can weigh in?


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 17, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> There are very few absolute "wrong". There are definitely times I choose to let the elbow move out. Best reason off the top of my head is the boxer's move of guarding the face with that shoulder, which I do at times when sparring. You have to move the elbow to the outside for that - arm has to turn.


I have been trying to picture and reconcile this in my head. I know what you mean when you reference boxers guard. Would it be correct to say you would only do this in an open or semi-open stance where the body presented to the opponent? I can definitely see it if I was really close inside on the opponent.
In a kicking style this arm motion would be ripe for getting a mid-section kick when in a closed stance. Of course, what is done with the lead in regards to blocking/punching is very different when punches to the face are illegal.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I have been trying to picture and reconcile this in my head. I know what you mean when you reference boxers guard. Would it be correct to say you would only do this in an open or semi-open stance where the body presented to the opponent? I can definitely see it if I was really close inside on the opponent.
> In a kicking style this arm motion would be ripe for getting a mid-section kick when in a closed stance. Of course, what is done with the lead in regards to blocking/punching is very different when punches to the face are illegal.


Close-in, I'm likely transitioning to clinch or something else to get to grappling. If I'm striking-only, I don't tend to play that close in (likely because I think of that as my grappling-transition range). I don't know if my definition of "open" stance would be the same as yours (for me, that would be facing full-front, as opposed to a "fighting" stance, which is bladed).

In any case, my guard changes somewhat as distance changes. In general (though not absolutely), I transition from a classical-looking Karate guard at (and beyond) kicking distance, gradually to a close boxing-type guard at relatively close distances. Obviously, that changes depending upon what both I and my opponent are doing. As for the punch that raises the shoulder (I never picked up a name for this - I've always just called it "the punch that raises the shoulder") to cover the jaw, that's a mid-range weapon for me.


----------

