# Real quick, here is some PROOF



## Josh (Sep 17, 2004)

I do have PROOF. Ever heard of a PENTECOSTAL CHURCH? If not, here's the deal. After Jesus Rose from the dead, He appeared to many over a time. And in this time, He explained that His now 11 disciples(judas betrayed Jesus, felt bad, hung himself) that they would RECEIVE POWER FROM ON HIGH. THE HOLY SPIRIT!! Well this is where the PENTECOSTAL stuff comes from. On the day of PENTECOST, the disciples were in a house, or large room when all of a sudden the HOLY SPIRIT came on them, and THEY SPOKE IN TOUNGES and had a Supernatural feel to them. GUESS WHAT?!??! THAT STILL GOES ON TODAY!! I PROMISE!!!! Go out on the internet, type in ASSEMBLY OF GOD, or Pentecostal Churches, or Pentecostal Churches in your area, or Baptized With the Holy Spirit, anything along that line. SEEE, FEEL, KNOW JESUS IS WHO HE SAYS HE IS!!!! There is MORE TO THIS WORLD than YOU SEE!!!!


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## Mark Weiser (Sep 18, 2004)

Is this what is called a religious text by. I almost forgot to dodge this item. Anyway makes you go hmmmm. Now considering 

The great feast of the *"Jewish Pentecost"* is kept in remembrance of the giving of the Law to Moses at Mount Sinai, 50 days after the liberation of the slavery from Egypt (the Passover). On that day God gave Moses the Ten Commandments engraved with fire on stones, among the roaring sounds of nature, making the Covenant with the People of God (Ex.19,20, Lev.23). Now the big question of the day is this. 

If God himself wrote these commandments with his own finger. Why would he need to send another to explain the meaning of these commandments 1000 of years later in the future? Why not just explain how to do these commandments and their meanings at the time HE wrote them.  

Oh HE did already he gave the whole understanding of the Law of Moses to Moses himself. Interesting God did not come out and say you are to obey these commandments until Jesus comes down.


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## Josh (Sep 18, 2004)

yep and ON PENTECOST, this HOLY SPIRIT came. I didn't ask for where did the PENTECOST name come from, i'm telling you that's why STILL TODAY, there are PENTECOSTAL Churches because on PENTECOST, this is what happened. It's no joke, it can happen to you , if want. Go there. SEE GOD"S POWER!! Yea, you'll see people jumping up and down, acting crazy, Falling Down, what looks like "passing out"(called Faling Out). Talking in different languages.


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## Josh (Sep 18, 2004)

Mark, do you NOT know how to NOT COMMIT ADULTERY. Jesus says, the LAW is still in EFFECT. The LAW is NOW written on YOUR HEART. You conscience TELLS you what's right and wrong. Jesus Came to FULFILL THE LAW. He came to DO AWAY WITH THE PUNISHMENT FOR BREAKING THESE LAWS!! The LAW itself DOES NOTHING but TELL YOU what you've broken, because the Bible says "For all have sinned and fall short of God's glory". And God decided to make a NEW covenant and let JESUS be OUR SACRIFICAL Lamb.


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 18, 2004)

Hey, ever hear this one:

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, yet my voice is become as sounding brass, an empty cymbal, if I have not Charity."

Huh. That wouldn't have anything to do with developing compassion rather than judgment, would it? No, course not.

Three smacks with anything that C.S. Lewis ever wrote.


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## Josh (Sep 18, 2004)

ahahahahahaha!! rmcrobertson. Dang!! do you know even know what you're talking about?? What's that got to do with ANYTHING that i've posted. 

That not being in the Bible doesn't matter, all that was saying is Speaking In Tounges doesn't do good if you're not right in your heart. 

I'm GIVING YA"LL PROOF of THE BIBLE!! Ya'll want PROOF, READ WHAT I WROTE!!


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## SenseiBear (Sep 18, 2004)

sorry Josh - been there, saw that, didn't bother to get the t-shirt.  Saw lots of histrionics, but no God.  No proof.


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 18, 2004)

> SEE GOD"S POWER!! Yea, you'll see people jumping up and down, acting crazy, Falling Down, what looks like "passing out"(called Faling Out). Talking in different languages.


Is that GOD or an experience that people seek to feel released?

Are you here just to try to get converts to become "Pentecostal" and speak in tongues?  Hey, you know, Christians know about Pentecost and celebrate it - know about the Holy Spirit, too.  Doesn't mean that if I don't speak in tongues I'm not praying or whatnot.


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## Josh (Sep 18, 2004)

looks like you didn't go to a Pentecostal Church then. Hehehe, did you even BOTHER to NOTICE anything. Did you go to worship to just be with a friend or just to be there? God's not far away. God LOVES ya'll so much that He'll HATE having to remove you IF, that's IF you don't BELIEVE. Why won't you just BELIEVE and NOT QUESTION it. The Bible says that FAITH IS THE PROOF!! Which means WHEN YOU BELIEVE it BECOMES REAL, not Psychologically, but BECAUSE GOD WILL MEET YOU THERE and SHOW WHAT"S TRUE!! 

I don't care what ya'll think. I'm not trying to convert you, ya'll WANT PROOF. HERE IT IS. And the MESSAGE OF SALVATION, i gave that stuff about the Pentecostal Churches as PROOF. READ PEOPLE, READ WHAT I POST!! Read, don't scan! I CAN'T convert people, GOD can. God's the victim, He will always be until EVERY LAST PERSON WILL CONFESS HE IS GOD!! Ya'll have TIME NOW to receive Salvation. The Holy Spirit is still in the earth, He knows whether you'll CHOOSE TO BELIEVE. BELIEVE IN JESUS!! Call on His name, and BELIEVE, THEN He will show you that He's there. BELIEVE. The Proof is all that i've been saying, the fact that hey, why are Christians persecuted, why is there the nation ISRAEL, why does Israel have a history of so many problems. Prophecy!! Ya'll have been given sites, testimony, ya'll don't by it. Did i not just give you proof there? HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET PROOF IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE GOD CAN PROVE HIMSELF TO YOU?!?! WHY DO YOU EVEN WANT PROOF FROM A CHRISTIAN, WHY NOT CHRIST HIMSELF?!? Jesus is the most controversial name, WHY?!?!? T

here's a reason. I don't even think ya'll read what i post. Do ya'll really care about proof? Or do ya'll hope it'll just catch your attention one day and THEN believe? How did the "big bang" just SUDDENLY happen from NOTHING. There was NOTHING RIGHT, and then just BOOM!! There wasn't space, just nothing and then BOOM!! That's the big bang theory. But if i'm wrong about that, cause i don't care about it, but here's ANOTHER big bang theory. There was space and some kind of reaction with molecules and/or gas and/or light and/or particles...whatever, and it all combined and then BOOM!! If that's true, WHERE DID THE GAS, MOLECULES, LIGHT, all that COME FROM?? How does gas, molecules, particles, light, create Knowledge, Wisdom, blood, Human Emmotion, Feelings, Desires, Bone Marrow, Eye Sockets, Snot, Blue Sky, a worm, grass, Chickens, a Dinosaur? The ability to make a hamburger; the ability to fight, cry, laugh, smile, dance, sing? Was it those little molecules and such that brought me all the way here to tell ya'll this? Did a particle make me? Is it a living thing? I am, GOD IS!! He is the Alpha, the Omega, the BEGINNING AND END. He's a spirit. Let HIM SHOW YOU HE"S REAL.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Sep 18, 2004)

Basic breakdown seems to be: I believe it, so that should be proof enough for all of you.


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## SenseiBear (Sep 18, 2004)

O sweet beelzebub.  No, I didn't go to worship.  I don't believe in god.  That is why I read your thread - but you don't have proof...  nor even a very rational argument...

hey kid, you have fun shake, rattling, and rolling your way, I'll have fun mine.


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 18, 2004)

> looks like you didn't go to a Pentecostal Church then. Hehehe, did you even BOTHER to NOTICE anything.


I've visited services of several different faiths.  I prefer the one I have, thanks all the same.  You have no monopoly on religious interpretation, or thinking you have an idea of GOD's love.  

And what a thing to *argue* about.


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 18, 2004)

Josh, I was simply adverting to the hatred and lack of compassion that is screamingly evident in what you're writing.

I was also suggesting, in my own specially-silly way, that you might find C.S. Lewis useful.

His books include the many Chronicles of Narnia, of course, as well as "The Screwtape Letters," "Out of the Silent Planet," and "Perelandra," and "That Hideous Strength."

There's also a good movie about him, "Shadowlands."

The quote I posted agrees precisely with your remark about the necessity of, "being right in your heart," though your idea of what this "right," means is frankly rather revolting. Give me the Boddhisatva's decency over this sort of chortling any day.

If your sort of joy in souls burning in hell reflects the way it really works, y'all can stuff your salvation. It isn't worth it.


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## Josh (Sep 18, 2004)

do ya'll think Christians are lying? That would be the biggest scam in all history. oh, but what about Judaism, or Islam? they have Jesus, abraham all in there too. God created man, man created religion because they don't like God telling them that they are bad. The Bible says SOO MANY TIMES that NOBODY HAS EVER SEEN HIM OR CAN!! And ya'll still LOOK FOR PROOF!! God wants you to have FAITH IN HIM!! This is what pleases Him, to have FAITH IN WHAT HE SAYS IS TRUE, HAPPENS, and WILL COME TO PASS! Somebody Loves you, DIED FOR YOU, is that NOT GOOD NEWS?? I wouldn't die for you, i couldn't, i'm not Jesus, but let Him show you His Truth. Or you'll be in bondage to sin and unbelief till it's too late. 

Here's some more proof. The Bible says that in the end of days, people will not believe in Jesus second coming, do you? The BIBLE says that.


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## Josh (Sep 18, 2004)

YOU STILL DON"T READ!! I don't WANT you to burn, GOD DOESN"T EITHER. But you don't believe. Why would you stuff salvation? It's SALVATION!! It's not something, it's a GIFT!! Salvation is not just NOT GOING TO HELL. But the REVEALING to YOU ALL GOD HAS FOR YOU AND ETERNAL LIFE!! At one point, there was adam and eve, the world was perfect, but the very disobediance created YOUR unbelief.

you think i hate you? i don't even know you. I told you BELIEVE and THEN YOU WILL HAVE YOU PROOF. Take the step of FAITH. You have a soul, more than just your body. Believe in Jesus, not buddha, not allah, but the LORD OF HOSTS?? Why? The Bible says there are many strange and false teachings and gods. But the LORD OF HOSTS STILL REMAINS!! And remember like, before, God won't JUMP OUT AND SAY HELLO. The Bible says He's UNSEEN.


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 18, 2004)

OK, Josh, could you tone it down with the yelling just a bit? People are reading and responding, you don't have to shout every line.

As I said on another thread, just because I am not Pentecostal (or born-again, or or or...) does not mean I'm not Christian. I'd like it if some of the folks who are so adamant about what Christianity is read up on church history a bit. But that's an aside. 

And if you are trying to convert people, or preach a particular message, saying, "I'm right, you're wrong" is not going to hack it. You can construct certain messages, but you'll have to enter into a discussion to engage people. 

Most of the folks on this forum are pretty respectful of religious differences. They will respond as well as they can. Going in with all guns blazing is not going to work.

p.s. sometimes you can see or experience faith in different ways.  Does it always have to be falling down and speaking in tongues?


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## RandomPhantom700 (Sep 18, 2004)

Josh, one simple request: please STOP capitalizing certain WORDS in YOUR POSTS.  It's really QUITE IRRITATING to READ THINGS LIKE this.  THANK you.


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## Josh (Sep 18, 2004)

the CAPS, is for ya'll to be able to SEE THE MAIN POINTS. Do ya'll think i'm an extremist? What's that? 

About being BORN AGAIN, How can you be Christian and NOT BORN AGAIN. Jesus says you MUST BE BORN AGAIN, to enter Heaven. Now watch, watch what i'm doin, ya'll made a thread about PROOF of God. I have come in to tell ya'll what the Truth is and have given ya'll proof. Told ya'll so many things. Ya'll must think that i'm trying to FORCE YOU into Heaven. I can't, but why should i, who doesn't want to go? Anyways. I told ya'll i can't make ya'll believe, therefore receive the FREE GIFT of SALVATION through the one who has created you, Yeshua ben Nazareth. Of course you don't believe it, but why not? Maybe i care too much?? Naw. 

If Jesus isn't real, and if the whole Bible is a lie. There's no hope. But we HOPE, some of us in ourselves, some of us hope in religion, others, in Jesus Christ. Not Christianity but JESUS CHRIST and HIS WORDS OF LIFE!!


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## Josh (Sep 18, 2004)

i'm done, hallelujah!!


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## auxprix (Sep 18, 2004)

Josh said:
			
		

> I do have PROOF. Ever heard of a PENTECOSTAL CHURCH? If not, here's the deal. After Jesus Rose from the dead, He appeared to many over a time. And in this time, He explained that His now 11 disciples(judas betrayed Jesus, felt bad, hung himself) that they would RECEIVE POWER FROM ON HIGH. THE HOLY SPIRIT!! Well this is where the PENTECOSTAL stuff comes from. On the day of PENTECOST, the disciples were in a house, or large room when all of a sudden the HOLY SPIRIT came on them, and THEY SPOKE IN TOUNGES and had a Supernatural feel to them. GUESS WHAT?!??! THAT STILL GOES ON TODAY!! I PROMISE!!!! Go out on the internet, type in ASSEMBLY OF GOD, or Pentecostal Churches, or Pentecostal Churches in your area, or Baptized With the Holy Spirit, anything along that line. SEEE, FEEL, KNOW JESUS IS WHO HE SAYS HE IS!!!! There is MORE TO THIS WORLD than YOU SEE!!!!


I've been to a pentecostal service. People weren't talking in different languages, they were speaking jibberish. The pastor said things about other religions that just weren't true, and had no factual merit. The Pentecostal service is not proof of god, it's all show.


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## Darksoul (Sep 18, 2004)

-The "proof" is in the faith. Josh, you are very adamant and passionate about your beliefs. That is a good thing if it helps you lead a good life. People are strange, so the song goes, and sometimes they need a different kind of proof than you have offered. Sometimes faith isn't enough. If God exists, then I can only imagine we shall learn of him in this life or during the afterlife. You seem determined to convince us, however, that our knowing his existence is crucial for something, perhaps salvation? What He has to offer may truly be wonderful, but what if its not what the rest of us need? Do we need to be saved, and if so, from what? The possibility of missing the Kingdom of Heaven? We decide our own paths through life, guided by what we choose to believe in, or, if you will, guided by a higher power. I honestly do not know if I serve a certain purpose in this life. I am grateful to exist, to be able to move, to feel, to love and dance and sing and practice kung fu. And I do hope there is something to look forward to after death. Right now, for myself, my desire is to lead a good life, be there for those in need, and journey till the next level.

A---)


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## michaeledward (Sep 18, 2004)

Josh, perhaps you remember there was a  'parable'; 

something about those who light a lantern, and how they shouldn't then put it under a bushel, but rather raise it high for all to see. Seems to me that story was about drawing others to the light.

Seems every time you post in here, other run away ... figuratively at least. Your lantern isn't drawing anybody in. I have to image that is not good. Perhaps you should discuss that with your spiritual counselor.

Now, concerning the Proof you mentioned; first the statement 

'After Jesus Rose from the Dead".

I will grant you that we have some historical evidence that Jesus (joshua son of joseph) actually existed, but the whole 'rose from the dead' part ...well, now I can't just take your word, and the bible as evidence that such a thing happened. So, everything you describe as a result of this statement is in similar doubt. 

Sorry Charlie, we want Tuna's that taste great.


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## Mark Weiser (Sep 18, 2004)

Actually Josh lol. You do not know a thing about me lol. I was an ordained Pastor/Minister in the Full Gospel movement for a number of years(nearly 20 years) and yes I too "Spoke in tongues and did the full Spirit thing" I was also involved as a leader in the Messainic movement as well to get close to the Jewish people and lead them to this Jesus. 

So I speak from experience and knowledge on what motivates one to "be full of the Holy Spirit" but I tell you that Judaism which Christianity claims to be from or completing the so called holes in the law has such a deep and rich Spiritual value remember you can not go wrong with the orginial product it does not need to fixed or revamped to make it better. I can discuss each point of the Messiah syndrome that this Jesus supposedly completed in a private discussion.


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## Flatlander (Sep 18, 2004)

Josh said:
			
		

> i'm done, hallelujah!!


Praise ye the Lord.  Take your sermon elsewhere.


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## SenseiBear (Sep 18, 2004)

Josh said:
			
		

> i'm done!!



OH, maybe ther IS a god...


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 18, 2004)

Hey, Josh...here's a little song, just for you and all the other sadistic Christians out there:

"Hide witch, hide
The Good Folk come to burn thee
Their keen enjoyment hid behind
The Gothic Mask of duty."

Three smacks with a copy of Bunyan's, "Pilgrim's Progress," a book that did a helluva better job of capitalizing and quoting.


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## Josh (Sep 18, 2004)

Mark, i guess you to claim to be a Christian no more. There's a reason for that, here's the Parable of the Sower Christ talked about:

1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop--a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear." 
10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 
11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables: 
   "Though seeing, they do not see; 
       though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: 
   " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; 
       you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 
    15For this people's heart has become calloused; 
       they hardly hear with their ears, 
       and they have closed their eyes. 
   Otherwise they might see with their eyes, 
       hear with their ears, 
       understand with their hearts 
   and turn, and I would heal them.'[1] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. 
18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."


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## Flatlander (Sep 18, 2004)

Look at the title of the thread.  Where's the proof?  Is this Josh's personal sermonizing thread?


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## Ceicei (Sep 18, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Look at the title of the thread. Where's the proof? Is this Josh's personal sermonizing thread?


I think you know the answer to your question....

- Ceicei


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## Josh (Sep 18, 2004)

go to one of those Churches, ask someone there about it.


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## hardheadjarhead (Sep 18, 2004)

*go to one of those Churches, ask someone there about it. * 

Nope.  You've said you have proof...don't pawn it off on those churches or expect us to take the time to go there.  YOU provide the proof, lad.  So far you've done nothing but preach.

Here's the rub, Josh.  You and another person in the forum, Parmandjack, claimed evidence or proof to back up your beliefs.  We're still waiting for it.


Regards,


Steve


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## kenpo tiger (Sep 18, 2004)

MODERATOR!!!!

This thread too - I'm gone.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Sep 18, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Here's the rub, Josh. You and another person in the forum, Parmandjack, claimed evidence or proof to back up your beliefs. We're still waiting for it.


Both of them also said they were finished, and then proceeded to post some more on the same subject.  Makes you wonder why they said they were done.


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## Scout_379 (Sep 18, 2004)

Two pages in one day!  there really should be an emoticon for: *whistles*

I have an idea...use _*italics*...much easier on the eyes eh?_


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## punisher73 (Sep 18, 2004)

Here's the main problem I have with alot of Penecostal churches...They LOVE to quote Paul in Corinthians about the whole "speaking in tongues" thing, but it isn't the same thing that was talked about in the Book of Acts.

In Acts, the word used for "speaking in tongues" is a word that means it was a known language (forgive me for not having all of my reference books right here with me). When the disiciples preached the gospel, the people heard it in their own language. IE: Greeks heard greek, etc.

In Corinthians, as with ALL the letters Paul wrote, were written to address SPECIFIC CHURCH PROBLEMS to that specific geographical church. The church in Corinth was heavily made up of people who had recently converted from a religion that worship Dionysus (sp?). As part of that religion's practice they would work themselves up into a frenzy and high emotional state and then start "speaking in tongues" and other hysterics (note here the word that Paul uses is not the same word as in Acts which was for a known language). Read what Paul is really saying, he downplays what they do and says that he can do it also, but what benefit does it have to everyone else. Then he goes on to talk about love and how that is more beneficial to a Christian and their witness to nonbelievers. Also, speaking and discerning in tongues is mentioned as a "gift of the spirit", but again this is a known language and not some unknown "prayer language"

Notice that this is ONLY addressed like this in the letter to this church and NOT something that Jesus talked about. When he taught his disiciples to pray he didn't talk about a hidden "prayer language" that you needed. Again if you look to early Christian churches you will see an influence on Gnosticism there. This group was all about the "hidden secrets" of what Jesus taught and that only certain people really had the secrets and if they couldn't speak in tongues than they weren't "really Christians". In fact, in other new testament books it warns of this very thing, of people claiming a hidden or secret knowledge and then that Jesus taught everything that you needed to know.

The letters of Paul are one sided conversations. It's like playing Jeopardy, we know what the answer is, but we don't know what the question is. He wrote specific answers to help churches with their specific problems. Paul is NOT gospel, he gives his interpretation of things based on his experience and education (let's not forget that Paul was Saul, who was educated as a pharisee).


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## Josh (Sep 18, 2004)

if you want, read the last 5-6 verses of MARK in the Bible, and there, Jesus says that one of the signs people will see that someone believes in Him is Speaking In Tounges. And more proof of Jesus is how Paul who hated Christians became one himself. Jesus met him there on the Damascus Road.


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## punisher73 (Sep 18, 2004)

Reread what I said about the usage of the words in relation to speaking in tongues.  Verses 9-20 in that part of the book of Mark were written well after the rest of the gospel and aren't included in the most reliable or oldest versions. If you take those verses literally, you will also be like the Church of God based out of Clevland, Tennessee (not to be confused with the Church of God based out of Anderson, Indiana) that takes all of those verses to heart and has snake handling as part of their service.  Oh, and if a member is bitten and dies they take that to mean the person had unconfessed sins.


Jesus references speaking a known language that a person hasn't learned yet in those verses ( greek- dialektos) and later fulfilled with the gifts of the spirit. He does NOT talk about "speaking in tongues" as Paul referenced in Corinthians (greek- glosalalia), nor does he say anything about a "prayer language" that is unknown to everyone.


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## Mark Weiser (Sep 18, 2004)

Punisher I am impressed. Good Job! 

Anyway sorry I was out of town today and could not get to the PC.  Anyway in reference to the so called tongues movement. First let us use the gift HaShem has given us it is called logic. The systematic useage of languages and grammar to understand the CONTEXT of the words that are used. Now we should look and remember that God is the same yesterday,today and tommorrow correct?

This being the case let us take a journey back to what you would call the Old Testament. We shall see if the Holy Spirit was in action as he is claimed to be in the New Testament. SIDE NOTE the Holy Spirit is alleged to be part of the God Head so in a sense he is God according to this stand point. 



The Holy Spirit Empowers God&#8217;s Servants for Service In Numbers 11.25-26 the helpers appointed by Moses to assist him in his work are to receive the same &#8216;spirit&#8217; as he enjoys - &#8216;the Lord took some of the spirit that was upon him, and put it upon the seventy elders, and when the spirit rested upon them they prophesied&#8217;. The activity of the Spirit is revealed in prophesying, but in this case as a sign of permanent enduement with the Spirit of wisdom.. 

Now God imparts or plants the Holy Spirit on people in the Old Testament. Those folks were given power to see the future, heal the sick, etc... there has never been an instance that I can recall in the OT that when a servant of HIM has ever spoken in another language. Remember God is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow.  

So let us use logic and see that God did not suddenly need to change his plans or establish a New way of speaking or interacting with men. He has been doing a fine job way before this Jesus was even born.


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## SenseiBear (Sep 18, 2004)

punisher73 said:
			
		

> In Acts, the word used for "speaking in tongues" is a word that means it was a known language (forgive me for not having all of my reference books right here with me). When the disiciples preached the gospel, the people heard it in their own language. IE: Greeks heard greek, etc.


Now THAT is quite a trick...  (dialektos), See Josh, If I went to a service with my Thai friend Dim and my Kazakhstani friend Gau-har, and we each heard it in OUR native tongues - that would be indicative to me that something mystical was occuring.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Sep 18, 2004)

Josh said:
			
		

> I do have PROOF. Ever heard of a PENTECOSTAL CHURCH? If not, here's the deal. After Jesus Rose from the dead, He appeared to many over a time. And in this time, He explained that His now 11 disciples(judas betrayed Jesus, felt bad, hung himself) that they would RECEIVE POWER FROM ON HIGH. THE HOLY SPIRIT!! Well this is where the PENTECOSTAL stuff comes from. On the day of PENTECOST, the disciples were in a house, or large room when all of a sudden the HOLY SPIRIT came on them, and THEY SPOKE IN TOUNGES and had a Supernatural feel to them. GUESS WHAT?!??! THAT STILL GOES ON TODAY!! I PROMISE!!!! Go out on the internet, type in ASSEMBLY OF GOD, or Pentecostal Churches, or Pentecostal Churches in your area, or Baptized With the Holy Spirit, anything along that line. SEEE, FEEL, KNOW JESUS IS WHO HE SAYS HE IS!!!! There is MORE TO THIS WORLD than YOU SEE!!!!


Josh:

Thank you for revealing the depths of not only your personal psychoses, but your lack of comprehension of the meaning of words in the English language, as well. Writings about what some bunch of people say they felt 2,000 years ago is not *proof* of ...well... anything. It's 2,000 year old hear-say.

And, incidently, you may need to learn more Bible prior to telling Robert that his particular phrase "...but have not Charity" is not in there. Most translators follow the KJV precedence and interpret the original root word in that chip of scripture as "Love". The root word actually impies "love in action"...also known as "charity". It's in Romans or Corinthians, but I do not recall which precisely...I abandoned this vein of ill-spent passion too many years ago.

Dave


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## GAB (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi, Josh,
From what I read about your profile, you are young and trying to convey your point with older and wiser persons. You are not doing the best job, but for your age you are at least hanging in there.

Keep an open mind, read what others have to offer, and learn from your elders.

Regards, Gary


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## parmandjack (Sep 19, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> *go to one of those Churches, ask someone there about it. *
> 
> Nope. You've said you have proof...don't pawn it off on those churches or expect us to take the time to go there. YOU provide the proof, lad. So far you've done nothing but preach.
> 
> ...


Lets keep the facts straight steve, I provided you all with several links to hundereds of fulfilled old testament prochecies, as well as named several modern day fulfillments of bible prophesies, as well as provided you with substantial evidence as tho the validity of the bible through historical (and readily verifyable) manuscript evidences...

You and your associates simply chose to dismiss it...

...thats fine, but dont argue that no evidence has been forth coming...

...and a side note... referring to Josh as "lad" in the manner in which you do, is quite condescending and simply is an attempt to set bias against his credibility simply due to his age, whatever that may be...


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## Mark Weiser (Sep 19, 2004)

okay here goes another shot over the bow sort of speak. 

Here are some of the main reasons why Jesus can not be the Messiah as seen by the Jewish People. 


He must be Jewish (Deut 17:15 & Num 24:17_
He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Gen 49:10) and a direct male descendent of *both King David* (I Chron 17:11, Ps 89:29-38, Jere 33:17, II Sam 7:12-16) *and* *King Solomon* (I Chron 22:10, II Chron 7:18)
He must gather the Jewish People from exile and return them to Israel. (Isa 27:12-13, Isa 11:12)
He must rebuild the temple in Jersusalem (Micah 4:1)
He must bring world peace (Isa 2:4, Isa 11:6, Micah 4:3)
He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d/ (Isa 11:9, Isa 40:5, Zeph 3:9)
These criteria for the Messiah is found in Ezekiel 37:24-28

This is just a starting point looking forward to the banter lol.


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## Scout_379 (Sep 19, 2004)

parmandjack said:
			
		

> ...and a side note... referring to Josh as "lad" in the manner in which you do, is quite condescending and simply is an attempt to set bias against his credibility simply due to his age, whatever that may be...


uhhh...ok
...from my personal experience... the bias is... justified. 



> Lets keep the facts straight steve, I provided you all with several links to hundereds of fulfilled old testament prochecies, as well as named several modern day fulfillments of bible prophesies, as well as provided you with substantial evidence as tho the validity of the bible through historical (and readily verifyable) manuscript evidences...


You were told repeatedly that the source cannot prove itself...ie: what was written in the bible (your prophecies) cannot be proven by other writings from the bible. The source cannot prove the source! 



> You and your associates simply chose to dismiss it...


you are the one who ignored _them,_ and _refused _to provide any evidence outside of biblical sources!


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## bignick (Sep 20, 2004)

maybe it's cause it's midnight and i've been up since 5:30 a.m.....maybe it's because i've spent the last 4-5 hours pouring over technical computer networking material...

either way...when reading this thread...i'm utterly confused as to what Josh's is trying to do/say


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## qizmoduis (Sep 20, 2004)

"Speaking in Tonguest" --> glossolalia

An excerpt from an article at infidels.org:



> Speaking in tongues known in psychological jargon as glossolalia is an ancient practice, mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 2:1-4), and recurring in Christian revivals through the ages. Modern analysis, however shows that it is actually "linguistic nonsense." A professor of anthropology and linguistics at the University of Toronto, William T. Samarin, conducted an exhaustive five-year study of the phenomenon on several continents and concluded:
> 
> Glossolalia consists of strings of meaningless syllables made up of sounds taken from those familiar to the speaker and put together more or less haphazardly. The speaker controls the rhythm, volume, speed and inflection of his speech so that the sounds emerge as pseudolanguage in the form of words and sentences.
> 
> ...



The full article is http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/joe_nickell/miracles.html

Speaking gibberish, IMO is not a miracle.  I would think that if a deity such as described in the Christian texts actually existed, it would be able to imbue a speaker with the ability to speak in a language that could be understood.  Or, it could make any language understandable to any listener.  THAT would be something.


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## MisterMike (Sep 20, 2004)

Matthew 4:7 ''Do not put the Lord your God to the test"

I wish all this would stop, and people would start behaving a little more according to the doctrines of professional martial artists.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Sep 20, 2004)

All what would stop?  Questioning?


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## michaeledward (Sep 20, 2004)

I am wondering where I could find a copy of the 'Doctrine of Professional Martial Artists?' Is that something like the Hyppocratic Oath?


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## MisterMike (Sep 20, 2004)

OK, let me rephrase. Common Courtesy.

Last I checked it was a pillar of most MA schools philosophy, but 50% of these posts are attacks on a young man's faith and character.

Good job.


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## loki09789 (Sep 20, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> OK, let me rephrase. Common Courtesy.
> 
> Last I checked it was a pillar of most MA schools philosophy, but 50% of these posts are attacks on a young man's faith and character.
> 
> Good job.


I think the friction is that the "proof" issue.  These are 'signs' that people can choose to recognize as indicators of xyz idea/existence or not.  They may be 'proof' to him, but not 'proof' in an absolute sense.  Of course if folks are wrong and he is right....


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 20, 2004)

> OK, let me rephrase. Common Courtesy.
> 
> Last I checked it was a pillar of most MA schools philosophy, but 50% of these posts are attacks on a young man's faith and character.
> 
> Good job.


 So if someone attacks my faith, I cannot stand up for what *I* believe in?


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## MisterMike (Sep 20, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> So if someone attacks my faith, I cannot stand up for what *I* believe in?



Sure. But how you arrived at that question from:



> OK, let me rephrase. Common Courtesy.
> 
> Last I checked it was a pillar of most MA schools philosophy, but 50% of these posts are attacks on a young man's faith and character.



is a little confusing.

Since you're interested, lets look at:



> *rmcrobertson:* Hey, Josh...you and all the other sadistic Christians
> 
> and
> 
> Josh, I was simply adverting to the hatred and lack of compassion that is screamingly evident



WOW. So calling Christians sadistic does not equal hatred?



> *Kembudo-Kai Kempoka:* Thank you for revealing the depths of not only your personal psychoses, but your lack of comprehension



and



> *SenseiBear:* hey kid, you have fun shake, rattling, and rolling your way, I'll have fun mine



It's no surprise, but there were still people wondering why others were calling for some moderation:



> *kenpo tiger*
> MODERATOR!!!!
> 
> This thread too - I'm gone.



Comments like these from "Dr.'s" and "Sensei's". Sorry but if THAT REALLY IS YOUR LEVEL of maturity, just let it go guys.


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 20, 2004)

MisterMike, I wasn't referring to what others wrote, but what *I* have said in the various "prove a religion" threads.  

I usually respect anyone's belief who is a) not trying to harm other people and b) who can talk respectfully to others.  

When I'm told that I'm ignorant or wrong, so that someone else can "prove" their faith, I will step up and defend my own beliefs.


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 20, 2004)

Well, gee, let's see.

This is a poster who got on, began screaming at everybody about the way their lack of faith would send them to burn in hell, announced that nobody else's religion mattered, threw in a few backhand swats at, "Jews," and pretty much continued on that same way.

Hm. 

And yes, I do stand behind the comment that any God who'd stick people in fire for eternity merely over their form of worship is a sick God, and any soul that would cheerfully sit around in Heaven with their feet up and enjoy the idea of billions suffering in eternal torment is sick and sadistic.

Call me just the AWFULLEST guy, but I tend to get a little testy when people start screeching about their salvation and my damnation--just as I tend to get testy when people who have in the past fired off as much rudeness and insult as they can come up with start lecturing me about good manners and spiritual development in the martial arts.

Ya want good manners? Fine. Turn off Michael Savage, and display some. I will cheerfully respond in kind.


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## MisterMike (Sep 20, 2004)

OK, that's fine and dandy, but like the guy on the corner with fistfulls of flyers and 50,000 pins on his jacket screaming REPENT!, we can also ignore what we don't want to hear. I don't think the "sermons" given thus far were worthy of the responses, even given the sensitivity of the subject.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Sep 20, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> OK, that's fine and dandy, but like the guy on the corner with fistfulls of flyers and 50,000 pins on his jacket screaming REPENT!, we can also ignore what we don't want to hear. I don't think the "sermons" given thus far were worthy of the responses, even given the sensitivity of the subject.


Given that he did come onto the board spouting off about how his beliefs prove things and that we're all going to hell, etc., I see nothing wrong with others accusing him of folly.  That's part of discussion, especially on religious issues.


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## hardheadjarhead (Sep 20, 2004)

*Lets keep the facts straight steve, I provided you all with several links to hundereds of fulfilled old testament prochecies, as well as named several modern day fulfillments of bible prophesies, as well as provided you with substantial evidence as tho the validity of the bible through historical (and readily verifyable) manuscript evidences...*

And it was pointed out that a text can not validate itself.

*...thats fine, but dont argue that no evidence has been forth coming...*

Because a text can not validate itself.  

*...and a side note... referring to Josh as "lad" in the manner in which you do, is quite condescending and simply is an attempt to set bias against his credibility simply due to his age, whatever that may be...*

This from a master of condescension?  

Josh is thirty years my junior, Parmandjack.  He describes himself as "a youngster" in his profile.  I often address younger people thus, and without condescension.

I think it unlikely that I have the power to bring a bias against Josh.  I've long thought that most people have the capacity to think for themselves and aren't that malleable or easily swayed by the things that they read.  

Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic.  


Regards,


Steve


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## loki09789 (Sep 20, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> OK, that's fine and dandy, but like the guy on the corner with fistfulls of flyers and 50,000 pins on his jacket screaming REPENT!, we can also ignore what we don't want to hear. I don't think the "sermons" given thus far were worthy of the responses, even given the sensitivity of the subject.


I am no grand example of 'perfect balance' in my responses by any means, I have to agree with MM's point that we can not control the information or message, but we can control how we respond to it....

I respect the passionate desire for self improvement (through a path of faith in this case) even if I don't agree with the tone, mood or 'evidence of proof' that is presented.

The problem with any orthodoxy, practice/process argument that I find is that the argument isn't about how we bring faith to life as a positive influence but how we differ on things so that we can feel superior or cut someone else down because they are 'wrong.'

I can only change myself, I can influence others (only if they let me) so I tend to try and see the "god in people" or the divinity/good side as much as I can. 

The rest is between you and your religious views and higher power (how ever you choose to ID it).


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 20, 2004)

When somebody wants to discuss religion and philosophies, I got no problem. When  somebody announces, VERY LOUDLY, that everybody but them is wrong, stupid and hell-bound--and throws in a few remarks about, "Jews," to boot--at leat one conversational glove comes right off.

But then, even Gandalf got testy with bigotry:

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."

"Fearing for your own safety." Exactly, exactly. And precisely the right rejoinder to ALL the text-thumpers and sunshine soldiers, and all their thrilled recitations of how this sinner or that fellow traveller is gonna get it.


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## MisterMike (Sep 20, 2004)

I'd a thought you'd be much happier pickin on Ann Coulter. Swing on by my CBS thread at let it all out.


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## PeachMonkey (Sep 20, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> OK, that's fine and dandy, but like the guy on the corner with fistfulls of flyers and 50,000 pins on his jacket screaming REPENT!, we can also ignore what we don't want to hear. I don't think the "sermons" given thus far were worthy of the responses, even given the sensitivity of the subject.



The dude came onto a discussion group and launched that whole thread... people *come* to discussion groups in order to respond to comments and dispute stuff.

I don't think religious schtuff should be any more subject to this "just ignore him" supposed discretion than any other topic (given that The Study is for political and religious discussion...)


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## heretic888 (Sep 22, 2004)

In typical style, I will discuss a few points that piqued my interest:

1) I personally don't believe there was a historical "Jesus of Nazareth" (or Yeshua ben Nazareth, if you prefer). My own personal view is that "Jesus Christ" is a composite character drawn from perhaps _dozens_ of historical and ahistorical personalities --- including Pagan godmen like Dionysus, and the Yeshua ben Nun (Joshua) of the Old Testament. Thus, tossing the "J-word" around in an attempt to impress me will have very little effect.

2) It never ceases to amaze me how these fundie-types always overemphasize the "fire 'n brimstone" aspects of the New Testament, and always underemphasize the aspects that parallel with the Bodhisattva Vow --- y'know, the whole "unconditional compassion for all sentient beings", thing?? Or, if you prefer, "turn the other cheek"?? "Love thy enemy"?? C'mon, now....

3) Gnosticism was, of course, mentioned. And, unsuprisingly, blatantly misinterpreted and misrepresented. To note, calling "Paul" anti-Gnostic, unless you are talking about the forged "Pastoral Letters" (Timothy, Titus, etc) is rather laughable. Read Galatians sometime.

And, by the way, "Paul" did claim to teach a "secret" Christianity only available to the pneumatically prepared. The word translated for a "perfect" or "mature" Christian in Greek, teleote, actually means "initiated". Ever wonder why the only guys that directly claim to follow his teachings, like Marcion or Valentinus, were Gnostics?? Ever wonder why the orthodox/literalist movement never claimed "Paul" as "one of their own" 'til around the time that the Pastorals were forged, in the late 2nd century?? Justin Martyr (mid-2nd century) sure didn't seem to know who the hell this "Paul" was...

Also, in no way does "speaking tongues" necessarily have anything to do with "Gnosticism". But, as a fun little side note, one of those "heretical" Gnostic works, the Gospel of Thomas, is now increasingly recognized as one of the source materials of some of the later Gospels (such as the Gospel of John, another pro-Gnostic work). It has a very close relationship with the source material identified as "Q".

4) Hardheadjarhead is quite correct in that a text does not, and cannot, prove itself. Contrary to the title of this thread, no "proof" has as of yet been provided. Nor will it be.

Have a good one.


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## MisterMike (Sep 23, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> The dude came onto a discussion group and launched that whole thread... people *come* to discussion groups in order to respond to comments and dispute stuff.
> 
> I don't think religious schtuff should be any more subject to this "just ignore him" supposed discretion than any other topic (given that The Study is for political and religious discussion...)



That's right but it's not for personal attacks. That was my only concern.


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## PeachMonkey (Sep 23, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> That's right but it's not for personal attacks. That was my only concern.



I can see that.


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## DavidCC (Sep 23, 2004)

It's silly for a fundamentalist Christian to be trying to offer proof anyway, because there is no need for faith in the face of proof, and faith is the most important thing in fundamentalism.  

Do I need faith that the sun is shining while it shines? No, becasue I can see it.  When it rains, does faith that the sun will come back eventually help me get through the rain? Yes it does.  So if there was some irrefutable proof of God's existence or that Christ rose from the dead, that would be the end of faith as we know it.  So for somebody whose whole philosophy depends on the power of faith, trying to destroy faith seems a little ***-backwards.  

But you gotta cut him some slack, it's exciting becoming a born-again christian, who knows what kind of mess Josh was before he got faith, what he traded in to get what he has now, or where he will be in 20 years.  He might discover that Jewish mysticism is right for him, or he might be happy staying with the Pentecostals, or he might become a Lutheran.  You just can't tell.


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## heretic888 (Sep 23, 2004)

This is quite true.

For all the criticisms we may have of various religions, it is important to remember that they can serve as a valuable means of grounding to the individual, giving him/her a sense of meaning, purpose, direction, and order.

Of course, then again, this can be said of ANY worldview or philosophy that is adhered to "religiously". It all depends on the individual.


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## Flatlander (Sep 23, 2004)

Once again, kind of like martial arts.


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## heretic888 (Sep 23, 2004)

Yeah. Funny thing, that.


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