# What's your instructor's rank?



## IcemanSK

I'm curious about what your instructor's rank is. I just wonder what the average rank would be. Call it a spin off from the "what rank are you" thread we have every so often.


----------



## terryl965

Mine would be a Kukkiwon 7th Dan.


----------



## bushidomartialarts

my teacher is 7th dan.  one of his teachers theoretically promoted him to 8th, but he won't accept it yet...


----------



## Spookey

I have two instructors...I train with both of them directly (when I am a good student...its been a busy year!)

Instructor Number One:  

  Oh Do Kwan - 4th Dan, Sabum #520 - 
 promoted by Hyun Jung Myung 1974

   ITF - 4th Dan, International Instructor Turtle Shell #66
 Promoted by General Choi Hong Hi (personally) 1976 
 based on his Oh Do Kwan status.

Instructor Number Two:

   Chung Do Kwan - 9th Dan

The irony is the first instructor was at one point senior to the latter. If both have trained continuously yet one has been outside the proper political circles (and knowing what we know about "honorary or maritortious" promotion in the upper ranks) leaves me just now asking a question...truly, how great is the distance between those five degrees?
 In no way is that to take away from the credit of the 9th dan. I hold him in my heart as an uncle if not more based on his treatment of my family and the acceptance he openly granted me based on (his knowledge of my primary instructor i can only assume).

Regards,
Spooks


----------



## IcemanSK

My instructor is a 9th Dan (Kukkiwon).


----------



## exile

My instructor is 5th dan KKW.


----------



## Kacey

ITF TKD 6th Dan, promoted by Master Choi Jung Hwa.


----------



## mango.man

My daughters GM is 9th Dan KKW.

The primary instructor that teaches at the dojang we attend (our GM runs 4 in the area) is a 2nd Dan, as is my daughter.

My daughter's personal sport TKD coach is reportedly a 3rd Dan although neither student nor coach wear a dobak for the sport training so I have never been able to count stripes on his belt.


----------



## WMKS Shogun

My Instructor is 4th Dan, his instructor is 6th Dan, and my students' instructor (me) 2nd Dan.


----------



## terryl965

mango.man said:


> My daughters GM is 9th Dan KKW.
> 
> The primary instructor that teaches at the dojang we attend (our GM runs 4 in the area) is a 2nd Dan, as is my daughter.
> 
> My daughter's personal sport TKD coach is reportedly a 3rd Dan although neither student nor coach wear a dobak for the sport training so I have never been able to count stripes on his belt.


 

No offense but counting stripes on a belt means little now-a-days, last year well actually three years ago in Atlanta we had the honor:shrug:, to meet an 12th degree tkd'ist, I know they only go to tem but he had 12 stripes on his belt, what a goof off.


----------



## matt.m

My tae kwon do instructor is a 7th dan, 5th dan in hapkido.


----------



## Kwan Jang

My instructors, KJN Tony Thompson and KJN Ernie Reyes, Sr. are both 7th dans. I'm one of their senior students at sixth dan.


----------



## cali_tkdbruin

Yup, our sabumnim is a Kukkiwon 7th Dan BB. I hear he's going back home to S.Korea to apply for his 8th. He's still fairly young too, in his late 40's.


----------



## cali_tkdbruin

terryl965 said:


> No offense but counting stripes on a belt means little now-a-days, last year well actually three years ago in Atlanta we had the honor:shrug:, to meet an 12th degree tkd'ist, I know they only go to tem but he had 12 stripes on his belt, what a goof off.




WHAAAAAT?!? A 12th dan?!? I'm no TKD newby, but that's a new one to me! I just  didn't know. Man, I feel like a real dumbass now cuz I thought 10th dan was *top dogg *too!!! Oh well, I guess it's true then, the study and learning of the martial arts is infinite. You learn something new all the time in the MAs... :uhyeah:


----------



## cali_tkdbruin

BTW, did the dan stripes wrap all the way around his waist? :lfao:


----------



## jfarnsworth

Mine was a 4th in the ITF before I left him.


----------



## cali_tkdbruin

Just Do It!!!!

Right Jason!?! Make 'um just do it!!!:ultracool


----------



## The Kidd

Direct instructor is 3rd Dan


----------



## TraditionalTKD

9th Kukkiwon. I saw the certificates myself, and he described his Kukkiwon testing after he returned home.
BTW, late 40's is a bit young to be 7th Dan.


----------



## shesulsa

My Sa Bum Nim is 5th in Kodokan Judo, 3rd in KMA.


----------



## Kimelac

9th Dan, Grand Master Kun Hwa Lee.

Some notes about GM Lee :

He served as the Chief Instructor of the TANG SOO DO MOO DUK KWAN Headquarters in Korea (TANG SOO DO has evolved into what is known today as TAE KWON DO). He also served as the Chief Instructor for the Tang Soo Do Greek Federation, the Chief Instructor for the Tang Soo Do Italian Federation, and the Chairman of the Technical Advisory Committee for the European Tang Soo Do Federation.
In 1996 Grandmaster Lee founded the Greek and Italian Hwal Moo (Tae Kwon Do) - Jung Do Kwan Federation. During this time period Grandmaster Lee created the HWAL MOO (Life Defense) martial art forms, and today remains honored as the lifetime president of the Jung Do Kwan Federation.

Both me and my kids feel very priveledged to be learning from GM Lee.


----------



## matt.m

Yeah  I agree 12th dan....hmmmm. You know dad told me a week or so ago the following "I must be a retard, I have been in hapkido since '73 and am only a 5th dan."


----------



## IcemanSK

cali_tkdbruin said:


> WHAAAAAT?!? A 12th dan?!? I'm no TKD newby, but that's a new one to me! I just didn't know. Man, I feel like a real dumbass now cuz I thought 10th dan was *top dogg *too!!! Oh well, I guess it's true then, the study and learning of the martial arts is infinite. You learn something new all the time in the MAs... :uhyeah:


 
Wow! This guy must be something else. GM Park, Hae Man is a 10th Dan KKW (one of only 52....& most of those were awarded after death!) I love this art, sometimes.


----------



## andyjeffries

Iceman, don't suppose you have a list of the 10th Dan's awarded by the KKW have you?


----------



## IcemanSK

andyjeffries said:


> Iceman, don't suppose you have a list of the 10th Dan's awarded by the KKW have you?


 
No sir, I don't. I wish I did, tho. The only way I know that number is from the KKW website. It's not a list of who they are, just the number. In fact, I might even be off by one or two.

Sorry.


----------



## phlaw

TraditionalTKD said:


> BTW, late 40's is a bit young to be 7th Dan.


 
Why is that a bit young?  My instructor is 39 and is a 7th Dan.  According to the Kukkiwon requirements shown here, you could actually attain 7th Dan by the age of 36.

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01


----------



## TraditionalTKD

You know, several of our Instructors went to Korea last year for the Hanmadang and discussed the state of Tae Kwon Do with very high ranking KKW officials. One of the concerns was rank inflation-claimed rank being much higher than actual rank.
Why is 39 too young for 7th Dan? Because the rank of 7th Dan, or Junior Grandmaster, is a very high TKD rank denoting a long career in Tae Kwon Do, teaching and promoting. I believe, and I think others will concur, that a 39 year old simply does not possess the necessary maturity and body of knowledge and experience to do justice to a legitimate 7th dan rank. Disagree if you wish, and I imagine you do, but I firmly believe this. I am 38 years old, and will most likely test for 5th Dan this year. My GM adheres to traditional guidelines as far as rank requirements, and I simply could not see him seriously recommending a 39 year old to the rank of 7th Dan. He would not feel they were ready, based on all that 7th Dan carries with it.


----------



## cali_tkdbruin

TraditionalTKD said:


> .
> .
> .
> BTW, late 40's is a bit young to be 7th Dan.



You're referring to my late 40 year old instructor, he was born and grew up in South Korea. He began his TKD and MA instruction when he was 7 years old, he's now 47. He has 40 years in studying the art. I believe that it certainly qualifies him to competently hold his current KKW dan rank. I've trained under him for years, and I've studied other TKD masters and he is is quite capable and worthy of his rank.


----------



## IcemanSK

TraditionalTKD said:


> You know, several of our Instructors went to Korea last year for the Hanmadang and discussed the state of Tae Kwon Do with very high ranking KKW officials. One of the concerns was rank inflation-claimed rank being much higher than actual rank.
> Why is 39 too young for 7th Dan? Because the rank of 7th Dan, or Junior Grandmaster, is a very high TKD rank denoting a long career in Tae Kwon Do, teaching and promoting. I believe, and I think others will concur, that a 39 year old simply does not possess the necessary maturity and body of knowledge and experience to do justice to a legitimate 7th dan rank. Disagree if you wish, and I imagine you do, but I firmly believe this. I am 38 years old, and will most likely test for 5th Dan this year. My GM adheres to traditional guidelines as far as rank requirements, and I simply could not see him seriously recommending a 39 year old to the rank of 7th Dan. He would not feel they were ready, based on all that 7th Dan carries with it.


 

I appreciate your conviction on this issue, but I do disagree on the idea that "necessary maturity" for high Dan rank cannot be obtained by 36 (as KKW states minimum for 7th Dan). There are many people in many fields of knowledge that obtain P hD's & receive tennured faculity positions at universities by 36. One can even run for president of the USA at 35. I've studied Taekwondo for 24 years. It's an absolutely amazing art & it one of my greatest joys in life. But I must say, I've done a lot of things that required more maturity & wisdom on my part than it.

If a Taekwondo student starts at a young age & trains consistently, 7th Dan at 36 years old is completely plausible.


----------



## Kwan Jang

It was not too long ago that the WTF changed their policies regarding age and dan rank. IIRC, it was when they added a fourth poom level. Many of the "old schoolers" are a bit uncomfortable with it because some of us were held back because of being "too young" ourselves. Still, with the proliferation of younger practitioners, it was decided that they had to be given some place to go. 

The bottom line though is that if the WTF offers a rank at a certain age and someone meets the qualifications for it, don't blame the person for accepting it. What's the saying the kids have? "Don't hate the player, hate the game."


----------



## IcemanSK

Kwan Jang said:


> It was not too long ago that the WTF changed their policies regarding age and dan rank. IIRC, it was when they added a fourth poom level. Many of the "old schoolers" are a bit uncomfortable with it because some of us were held back because of being "too young" ourselves. Still, with the proliferation of younger practitioners, it was decided that they had to be given some place to go.
> 
> The bottom line though is that if the WTF offers a rank at a certain age and someone meets the qualifications for it, don't blame the person for accepting it. What's the saying the kids have? "Don't hate the player, hate the game."


 
This makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the background on this, sir.


----------



## Kwan Jang

Glad to be able to add some value to the discussion. I just looked up the older WTF guidelines for minimum age classification for the following grades:4th dan-23 yrs old; 5th dan-28 yrs. old; 6th dan-34 yrs. old; 7th dan-42 yrs. old;. This is from the official publication put out by the KTA and WTF in 1975 (Test Committee: Article Seven), so being 7th dan by the late 40's may not have been very common under the old rules, but it was still was out there.


----------



## jfarnsworth

cali_tkdbruin said:


> Just Do It!!!!
> 
> Right Jason!?! Make 'um just do it!!!:ultracool


 
You bet! :mst:


Nice to see you on the boards Cali.


----------



## TraditionalTKD

Keep in mind, those are MINIMUM guidelines established by the Kukkiwon. Many other Instructors, mine included, might very well feel that those ages are too young and establish their own requirements. Similar to minimal sentencing guidelines in court. The law says you must serve at least X years, but I'm sentencing you to XXX years in addition to what the law says.
One of our Instructors who holds the rank of 6th Dan told us that he had to wait several years past the time that others in his class tested because, since he was only in his early 40's, our GM felt he was too young. The KKW says 35 is old enough, but our GM obviously feels otherwise.


----------



## terryl965

Kwan Jang said:


> Glad to be able to add some value to the discussion. I just looked up the older WTF guidelines for minimum age classification for the following grades:4th dan-23 yrs old; 5th dan-28 yrs. old; 6th dan-34 yrs. old; 7th dan-42 yrs. old;. This is from the official publication put out by the KTA and WTF in 1975 (Test Committee: Article Seven), so being 7th dan by the late 40's may not have been very common under the old rules, but it was still was out there.


 

I agree but witht hat said alot of GM would not promote at the earliest guidelines, mainly for the reason of over jealous GM and the ones that did promote early did mainly for control with many schools and othe Master along side of them.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

My instructor is a 1st dan, his instructor is a 5th dan.


----------



## IWishToLearn

4th Dan Kwan Jang Nim Alejandro Mora.


----------



## TraditionalTKD

A 4th Dan is a Sa Bum Nim, not a Kwan Jang Nim. A Kwan Jang Nim is a Grandmaster-8th or 9th Dan.


----------



## Kwan Jang

Not neccesarily. The title Kwan Jang Nim was used by the original Kwan leaders at the formation of TKD and their original rank at the formation was 4th dan. It was also very common for masters to be addressed as KJN at 5th dan and greater in "old school" TKD. This is still a common practice in other Korean MA's including Hapkido, KSW, and Hwarang Do.


----------



## exile

Kwan Jang said:


> Not neccesarily. The title Kwan Jang Nim was used by the original Kwan leaders at the formation of TKD and their original rank at the formation was 4th dan. It was also very common for masters to be addressed as KJN at 5th dan and greater in "old school" TKD. This is still a common practice in other Korean MA's including Hapkido, KSW, and Hwarang Do.



Thanks for that particular bit of info, Kwan Jang---I've always been a little unsure of just what the protocol is for Kwanjangnim vs Sahbumnim. This make a lot of sense...


----------



## Jchetty

im new to the boards and taekwondo, so hi everyone:asian: our head instructor is 6th degree. He does mostly does the kids classes and runs the other schools and seminars. My immediate instructor is a 4th degree ,his wife, and since I'm new im working with a 3rd degree who has been studying at this school since he was 4 or 6. He is 18, is that to young to be a 3rd degree. I'm guessing if you're a 3rd degree your a 3rd dan or is that wrong?? so dan= degree or if you could enlighten me. I'm 25 and just started. Kind of started to honor my best friend :drinky: who was 3rd degree and hasnt practiced in years. Hope me starting will motivate him to strap up his sparring gear, but with a baby on the way i doubt he will:wah:


----------



## terryl965

First off welcome to answer you question no by the Kukkiwon standards you could be a thris degree by 18 most likely he was a poom rank before 15 and transferred the pooms to Dan ranks after that magical age of 15. As far as your Training goes is it WTF, Kukkiwon or ITF styles or do you know?


----------



## Jchetty

terryl965 said:


> First off welcome to answer you question no by the Kukkiwon standards you could be a thris degree by 18 most likely he was a poom rank before 15 and transferred the pooms to Dan ranks after that magical age of 15. As far as your Training goes is it WTF, Kukkiwon or ITF styles or do you know?





no ideai visited like 20 schools within an hours drive of my house for different styles..after having a long talk with my best friend who has a 3rd degree he said that make style doesnt matter and that what would ultimately make the difference was most importantly students effort.  Next important was quality of instruction. He said almost any style can be effective.  He wanted me to learn one style well and then cross train if I felt I was missing something so I could always rely on that.  I ended up going with boxing or taekwondo and this school really impressed me.  As for affiliation no clue..I will ask next time I go to class.


----------



## Fluffy

Mine has an ATA 6th Dan, and an HTF (ITF) 8th Dan.


----------



## Jchetty

terryl965 said:


> First off welcome to answer you question no by the Kukkiwon standards you could be a thris degree by 18 most likely he was a poom rank before 15 and transferred the pooms to Dan ranks after that magical age of 15. As far as your Training goes is it WTF, Kukkiwon or ITF styles or do you know?


 
 If I am correct, our training is based on ITF.  I am currently a white belt studying the Chong-Ji form if that is correct spelling I am kind of dissappointed in my limited cardio and lack of kicking ability.  Knowing boxing my hand techniques are decent.  What I love about the martial art is there is so much attention placed on proper form.  From breathing to turning hips to placement of pivot foot, I love it.  Also I love that they stress to learn techniques from both sides which is a different approach from boxing.  I am discouraged currently and I have a loooong way, but I plan to study and practice until my kick are perfect.  I cant wait to make my orange belt.  We do 3 stripes per belt, and unlike the mcdojos as you guys call them, our instructors dont hand out belts easily.  Agirl just tested and i got to witness.  She had to do oral, demo of techniques(mainly kicking), self-defense, and floor technique..awesome


----------



## terryl965

Yes you are correct if you are doing the Chon-ji set of poomsae then you are ITF


----------



## Jchetty

cool...i love this art..i cant wait to get the next belt, but thats a long way:vu:


----------



## Drusilla

My instructor's a 1st Dan at the moment, but he's the best 1st Dan I've ever seen. Not that I'm biased (much!) but he really knows his stuff. I'm just so proud to have him as my instructor.


----------



## setboy

We have a 
Shichi Dan
Yon Dan
2 San Dans
and one other Sho Dan


----------



## andyjeffries

setboy said:


> We have a
> Shichi Dan
> Yon Dan
> 2 San Dans
> and one other Sho Dan




Do you do Taekwondo?  I just wondered because I don't recognise those terms as Korean...


----------



## IcemanSK

Drusilla said:


> My instructor's a 1st Dan at the moment, but he's the best 1st Dan I've ever seen. Not that I'm biased (much!) but he really knows his stuff. I'm just so proud to have him as my instructor.


 
It's ok to be biased about such things.:ultracool


----------



## setboy

andyjeffries said:


> Do you do Taekwondo?  I just wondered because I don't recognise those terms as Korean...





oops. You know what? i didn't read That this was under "Korean Martial Arts" part of this site. I don't do Taekwondo. forget i said anything

Sorry


(Mods feel free to delete these post)


----------



## wade

Setboy? Why apologize, it was a legitimate question and you gave a legitimate answer. I really don't see anyone on this board criticizing you for that. You do Karate, we do TKD, but the question was about the terms, not the style. As for being in the wrong area, I don't think there is any such thing, I know I tend to wander all through this site, there is just so many things to look at, read, and get information on that I normally don't run into.


----------



## andyjeffries

wade said:


> Setboy? Why apologize, it was a legitimate question and you gave a legitimate answer. I really don't see anyone on this board criticizing you for that. You do Karate, we do TKD, but the question was about the terms, not the style.



I absolutely agree, it wasn't intended that way - more of a questioning if he was learning Taekwondo but with Japanese terms (which is something I've come across before and wanted to discuss if it was the case).


----------



## terryl965

andyjeffries said:


> I absolutely agree, it wasn't intended that way - more of a questioning if he was learning Taekwondo but with Japanese terms (which is something I've come across before and wanted to discuss if it was the case).


 
I'll discuss that with you" here is my take if you talk Japanese than you are teaching Japan Karate if you speak Korean then it is TKD, HKD or Korean Karate.

What is your take


----------



## andyjeffries

terryl965 said:


> I'll discuss that with you" here is my take if you talk Japanese than you are teaching Japan Karate if you speak Korean then it is TKD, HKD or Korean Karate.
> 
> What is your take



I completely agree with you, but I have come across people in the past doing Taekwondo movements but with Japanese terminology for the basic movements (very weird to hear/discuss).  I had hoped we had one such guy here so I could find out how that came about or his instructor's background.

But as I said, I'm with you...


----------



## terryl965

andyjeffries said:


> I completely agree with you, but I have come across people in the past doing Taekwondo movements but with Japanese terminology for the basic movements (very weird to hear/discuss). I had hoped we had one such guy here so I could find out how that came about or his instructor's background.
> 
> But as I said, I'm with you...


 

Well here is some background on me, when I first started TKD I was in Okinawa Karate before and I use to use the terminology, like saying dojo instead of dojang and Gi instead of Dobook, but I was just use to it. Then over time I become more comfibalitable with the Korean terminology. Maybe it is that way with them but they feel more comfitable with the Japanese way.


----------



## Catalyst

My Instructor is a 7th Dan in YonMooKwan TKD and also a 5th Dan in YonMooKwan HKD.


----------



## blue_star_17

my instructors a 4th dan... 12th dan???
are you sure???
some people have their rank on both sides of there belt...it looks like more when really it is not... my teacher has four stripes on either side of her belt and if you did not know she was a 4th dan you might think she was an 8th dan.... did they say 12th dan??? thats cool!
are you sure not a sixth dan???? with stripes on both sides???
I don't know when they started 12th dan...if this person is.....
it is cool to think so though!


----------



## wade

Hi Blue Star. If I may, I think maybe you are reading too much into the stripe on the belt thing, ya know? I've seen many BB's put their belt ranks on both sides of the belt. If the are 3rd dans it still means they are 3rd dans, not six dans. to have BB rank in more than one system is very common but you don't add the rank up. A 3rd dan in TKD that is a 4th Dan in Karate, it still a 3rd Dan in TKD and a 4th Dan in Karate, not a 7th Dan in the Martial Arts. An BTW, evry once in a while I will slip from Korean to Japanese and if I get really frustrated I will also go into Chinese and Viet Namese, but then, that is just me.


----------



## RED

Listed in order of the schools I attended.

The first one is still my favorite.

1st. 9th degree ITF
2nd 3rd degree ITF
3rd 2nd degree Tang so do 
4th 9th WTF
5th 4th WTF
6th 3rd Okinawan Karate
7th and current 2nd degree WTF. The older BBs know the ITF forms which is a plus.

I think I'm done moving around the world and all so this will probably be my last school. I was a military dependant.


----------



## Muwubu16858

My Teacher has the following:

9th Dan Korea Soo Bahk Do Association, Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan
9th Dan Korea Karate-Do Association (Ji Do Kwan)
9th Dan Korea Taekwondo Association
9th Dan Korea Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan Association (Moo Duk He)
9th Dan Kukiwon
5th Dan Y.M.C.A. Taekwondo(Korea Taekwondo Association)
4th Dan Kodokan Judo


----------



## karatekid1975

Well, I thought it was TKD instructors. But I'll give the list hehehehehe

My TSD instructor 5th dan
TKD instructor now is 3rd dan (but I did train with the head for a number of years and he's 8th dan).
Jujitsu 5th dan
Judo 5th dan (I didn't train more than a year, tho).

Plus I dabbled in a few other arts here and there. Not enough to count. Muay Thai and Hapkido, blah blah. Never got ranks, tho. But it was fun.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

My instructor is a 1st dan in Shaolin Kempo Karate and has been doing it for about 4-5 years.


----------



## Shaderon

My instructor is a 2nd Dan ITF, and just about to grade.  His instructor is 4th Dan ITF.   

At the last seminar I attended there was a few other instructors and I compared them to mine, in my opinion, although probably biased, he's better than the 3rd Dans that were there.   My instructor is also my Personal Trainer too and kills me whenever we session.   I'm actually hobbling around right now with very stiff legs because we "upped the anti" on my weights program three days ago.....  right before a lesson.  

Oh yes did I mention he's a fitness bully?


----------



## bluemtn

For the 2 schools I attend, one is a 4th dan and the other is a 2nd dan.


----------



## Gufbal1982

My instructor is a GrandMaster of his own system.  My other instructor is a 3rd degree.  My former instructors were 6th dan and 9th dan.


----------



## TraditionalTKD

How can he be Grandmaster of his own system unless he gave himself rank? Unfortunarely, I would not be surprised by that.


----------



## Sukerkin

You know, I think I may have to take up TKD at some point because you chaps keep drawing me into threads in your fora and I always feel a bit like I've walked in to someone party without actually knowing them .

That was meant to be complimentary by the way, I just didn't phrase it very well :O.

Anyhow, altho' not a Tae Kwan Do practitioner, my Sensei is 5th Dan MJER Iaido and 6th Dan Karate (plus a sprinkling of other Dans in Judo, Ju-Jitsu, Kendo ... ).


----------



## Shaderon

Sukerkin said:


> You know, I think I may have to take up TKD at some point because you chaps keep drawing me into threads in your fora and I always feel a bit like I've walked in to someone party without actually knowing them .
> 
> That was meant to be complimentary by the way, I just didn't phrase it very well :O.
> 
> Anyhow, altho' not a Tae Kwan Do practitioner, my Sensei is 5th Dan MJER Iaido and 6th Dan Karate (plus a sprinkling of other Dans in Judo, Ju-Jitsu, Kendo ... ).


 
Cool, let me know I'll hook you up, I get a finders fee....  :lol:    

It did come over as a compliment S, you are welcome here any time, pull up a chair!


----------



## LawDog

Wade,
You made a valid point about combined ranking. Last year I was touring in Europe and during which time I met with many great martial artists. I met with a few instructors who were claiming high ranking. During converstions with these instructors students it was mentioned that their instructor had multi ranking. example,
Shodan - Kempo
Nidan - Jujitsu
Yondan - Tae Kwon do
Shodan - Kendo
I would then ask them in what style does your instructor have his 8th Dan, the reply was if you add all of the ranks up it equals 8th Dan.
Over here in the states this sort of thing is starting.
I know, I am a little of subject.


----------



## Cirdan

LawDog said:


> I would then ask them in what style does your instructor have his 8th Dan, the reply was if you add all of the ranks up it equals 8th Dan.
> Over here in the states this sort of thing is starting.


 
Starting? The "5th Dan + 5th Dan = Soke" rule has been used by certain organizatios for years.


----------



## LawDog

Cirdan,
I understand what you are saying but I don't agree with this. After 43 years this sort of thing is all new to me. I believe that,
You earn what you earn, not what it can be multiplied up to.
 
Yes I know, off topic again.
:-offtopic


----------



## Sukerkin

Not that my opinion should be seen to carry any particular weight but I concur with *Lawdogs* comment above.

A breadth of 'Dans' shows flexability in learning, which is good, but should not be used to overly 'elevate' someone.  

A divergent example, outside the field of martial arts may help illustrate my reasoning. 

Not trying to make myself out to be some sort of genie-ouse here, just drawing on what I know.  

I have (various level) degrees in Economics, Computer Studies and Museum Studies - I can't 'multiply' all those together and call myself a Doctor for the simple fact that I haven't _earned_ my Phd.  

If I did make such a claim, it would not be unreasonable for someone like *Exile*, who has attained such academic 'rank', to both be upset by such a claim and perhaps even take steps to have such a fallacious title quashed.

Anyhow, as ever, I'm slightly wandering off the 'beam' here - sorry {sneaks away to sit quietly in the chair *Shaderon* kindly offered }.


----------



## JBrainard

My instructor survived the East L.A. school of hard knocks  and is also 7th Dan (Lakan Pito) in Kombatan Arnis.


----------



## Balrog

I joined my current instructor's school when I was a Blue Belt and he was a Second Degree.  I took over the school in 1994 after his move.  I'm now Fifth Degree; he's now a Sixth Degree Master Instructor.


----------



## HelloKitty

IcemanSK said:


> I'm curious about what your instructor's rank is. I just wonder what the average rank would be. Call it a spin off from the "what rank are you" thread we have every so often.


 
Hm I'm almost sure grand master is 8th dan.


----------



## DArnold

terryl965 said:


> No offense but counting stripes on a belt means little now-a-days, last year well actually three years ago in Atlanta we had the honor:shrug:, to meet an 12th degree tkd'ist, I know they only go to tem but he had 12 stripes on his belt, what a goof off.


 
AHHHH 
Piano belt!


----------



## Muwubu16858

in Tang Soo DO Y.M.C.A. style, Grandmaster is 8th and 9th Dan, 9th being the highest one can achieve.


----------



## tkdboy81

I actually had two instructors.  One is currently a fouth dan and the other is currently a fith dan.  They closed down their school a while back and I am now in the process in checking out a school where the instructor is a nineth or tenth dan.


----------



## kittybreed

I trained with Grandmaster KJ Lee but I don't really look at a person's belt rank to tell the whole story. It seems there are so many advanced belt holders these days. Not everyone who has an advanced belt is a good teacher. I think teaching techniques matter and that it takes years to become proficient at teaching an art. Before I actually had a black belt I believed (and still do) that the belt is nothing and everything. Nothing because it is just a belt and everything because of the meaning behind it. I think Master Lee would agree with that as well and I probably learned that from him too!


----------



## Jai

Currently I study under a 2 dan. But I have studied under an 8 dan master, a 6 dan master, a 5 dan master, and a 3 dan


----------



## Sorros

A legend in his own mind.


----------



## chrispillertkd

RED said:


> Listed in order of the schools I attended.
> 
> The first one is still my favorite.
> 
> 1st. 9th degree ITF


 
Geting a ninth dan from the ITF is quite an accomplishment, IIRC, only seven men besides Gen. Choi were promoted to this rank before the General's death.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## chrispillertkd

My instructor is a seventh dan in the ITF under GM Choi, Jung Hwa.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Kacey

chrispillertkd said:


> Geting a ninth dan from the ITF is quite an accomplishment, IIRC, only seven men besides Gen. Choi were promoted to this rank before the General's death.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



I believe he meant that his first instructor was a ninth dan in the ITF - not that his instructor was the first ninth dan in the ITF.


----------



## chrispillertkd

Kacey said:


> I believe he meant that his first instructor was a ninth dan in the ITF - not that his instructor was the first ninth dan in the ITF.


 
That is how I also took his meaning. If I had thought otherwise I would've mentioned having Gen. Choi as his first Taekwon-Do instructor being a _major_ accomplishment 

My point was that the ITF (any of the factions, it seems) does not hand out senior dan ranks lightly. Hence my pointing out that only seven of them were awarded before the General died. Getting an ITF ninth dan is quite an accomplishment. 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Kacey

chrispillertkd said:


> That is how I also took his meaning. If I had thought otherwise I would've mentioned having Gen. Choi as his first Taekwon-Do instructor being a _major_ accomplishment
> 
> My point was that the ITF (any of the factions, it seems) does not hand out senior dan ranks lightly. Hence my pointing out that only seven of them were awarded before the General died. Getting an ITF ninth dan is quite an accomplishment.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



Being as I'm a IV Dan in an IFT/USTF off-shoot, I'm quite aware of that - sorry if I misread your post.  By the way - I believe we've chatted before - my user name is my initials - my real name is Karen Cohn.  :wavey:


----------



## chrispillertkd

Kacey said:


> Being as I'm a IV Dan in an IFT/USTF off-shoot, I'm quite aware of that - sorry if I misread your post.


 
No problem.Getting things across accurately on an internet BBS can be tough sometimes  



> By the way - I believe we've chatted before - my user name is my initials - my real name is Karen Cohn. :wavey:


 
Indubitably. Lurking on various boards keeps me from finishing my dissertation. Which is not necessarily as great as it may seem 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## diamondbar1971

1) 10th Tino Tuiolosega Lima Lama
2) 10th James Woo san soo


----------



## diamondbar1971

1) 10th Tino Tuiolosega LimaLama
2) 10th James Woo san soo
3) 5th Sonny Reyes Kenpo


----------



## cflick

Well when I first started I trained under a 5th Dan Master and his assistant was a 4th Dan.
But now I am training under a 9th Dan Grandmaster.


----------



## Klondike93

My first instructor was a 2nd Dan working for Ralph Krause - Dana Carey, he dropped off the map when Ralph closed all his schools but one.

My second instructor is now a 9th Dan but was a 7th while I was there - Charles Sereff
I also have to give credit here to Fred Ackard who was a 4th now a 7th. I went to his class twice a week and only once a week to Master Sereff's. 

My third instructor was a 2nd Degree in EPAK - David Hemingway

My fourth instructor is a 3rd Dan ITF - Joe Cooper

My current instructor is a 3rd Degree EPAK/ Certified instructor of VV/MR Russian Systema - Brad Scornavacco


----------



## granfire

Pardon me if I goof off here, but I just got home from practice and a few hours of teaching kids.

my instructor is a 6th degree - Master, has been doing it since he was 11 for over 20 years now, he, too hit a few waiting periods because of age restrictions. His instructor is a 7th, Sr Master, and I believe he has been at it longer then I am alive (OK, not quiet, he isn't that old)

As far as I know not even the founders of the ITA have reached the 9th degree yet.

Rank is relative, as some organizations are slower (or faster) to progress the rankings. A friend of mine tested for her first Black after 7 years of training, while I got mine a shade under 2 years, yet, while her Husband was a Master at 4th, I have to keep at it the same amount of years to get my 6th to be called Master....though I doubt I will still be walking, let alone kicking and jumping in 20 years  

Oh, and yes, come 4th degree gradings, a lot of things come into play for the promotion to the next rank: Clean uniforms (preferably brand new) sparring gear (also best right out of the bag) and things like conduct - even on the internet....it becomes a bit political at that level, but I guess it's not a right to advance anyhow.


----------



## YoungMan

9th Dan Kukkiwon, because I've seen it. I also looked up his certification number on the Kukkiwon website and it was listed, unlike others who claimed to be but weren't.


----------



## Marchfly

Halls Taekwondo where i train is owned by Martin Hall, 7th Dan. 
My actual session instructors are both 5th Dan WTF.


----------



## colinmatchett

4th Dan WTF


----------



## ellies

6th Dan but very modest.  :cheers:


----------



## Fiendlover

i have two instructors.

sensei scott casamassa is 7th dan 

and

shihan chris casamassa is 8th or 9th dan.  

sorry its not percise


----------



## dortiz

Several teachers:
TKD 9th Dan Kukkiwon
HKD 7th Dan  KHF
HKD  3rd Dan U.S.K.M.A.F.
HKD  3rd Dan KHF


----------



## Twin Fist

My Instructor, Kristy Shawky is a 6th Dan under William Shelton an 8th Dan Under  GM Larry Wheeler 9th Dan.


----------



## thomm

My Grandmaster is 9th dan. Grandmaster Il Kwon Kim. Here is a liitle information on him:

Grand Master Kim was born in Korea and started training at the age of 7. His love of the martial arts brought him to the United States where in 1967 he started the I. K. Kim Tae Kwon Do Centers. Grand Master Kim studied under Grand Master Byung-Jik Ro who studied under Grand Master Gichin Funakoshi. Ja Be Ryu is the style that has resulted from Grand Master Kim's over 50 years of experience. Even today, Grand Master Kim circulates throughout the different branches of his organization, ensuring that the highest standards of instruction are still being maintained.

My primary instructor is a 6th Dan


----------



## terryl965

One of my GM has been involved in TKD for over fifty years and when ask about his rank, he simply says I am a Black Belt. Now that is a true GM of the Arts.


----------



## jim777

terryl965 said:


> One of my GM has been involved in TKD for over fifty years and when ask about his rank, he simply says I am a Black Belt. Now that is a true GM of the Arts.


 
Yes indeed


----------



## tshadowchaser

Most of my instructors are now deceased so I consider them now to be masters beyond reproach.
 Their ranks while alive where master or grandmaster but that matters not to much at this time or even then, as I studied with them for the knowledge they had not what their rank was.
Those that are still alive are at least masters with a life time of experience and knowledge


----------



## Tryak

My instructor is 3rd dan but a 5th dan instructs our class on some days as well.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Sensei Annarino is a 9th Degree Black Belt under Don Madden, Ko Sutemi Karate Do Union.  My trainer, Sensei Tom Pierce, is 4th Dan in Ko Sutemi and Black Belt in Tai Kung Fu.


----------



## YoungMan

I'm surprised 15th Dan isn't an option. How are some of these people going to state their rank if 15th Dan isn't an option?


----------



## StuartA

6th degree, with 40+ years experience in TKD


Stuart


----------



## Deaf Smith

7th Dan and he is Korean.

Deaf


----------



## StuartA

Deaf Smith said:


> 7th Dan and he is Korean.
> 
> Deaf


 
Does it matter or not that hes Korean... what relevance is that to a grade? (Just asking out of interest)


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

IcemanSK said:


> I'm curious about what your instructor's rank is. I just wonder what the average rank would be. Call it a spin off from the "what rank are you" thread we have every so often.


Grandmaster Kim is 6th dan KKW taekwondo, 9th dan kumdo and hapkido, Master Choi is 5th dan Moo duk kwan, 5th dan kundo, but the gentleman who instructs me regularly is Master Yeo, who is 4th dan KKW.

Daniel


----------



## Windsinger

My head instructor, Mr. Kurt Ottesen, is 6th Dan (ITF).

Personally, even though I've only been at this a couple of month, I think he's a fabulous instructor. And my son (who is an exceptionally polite person to begin with, and comes by it naturally) shows him more respect than just about anyone else (including me, most days ). I definitely picked the right school for me and my son.


----------



## chelseyfj

my instructor is a 7th dan


----------



## CrimsonPhoenix

I have several instructors that come to class on a regular basis. The main two are 3rd dan and 1st dan, and the others are 1st dan, 5th dan, and 7th dan.


----------



## IcemanSK

IcemanSK said:


> Wow! This guy must be something else. GM Park, Hae Man is a 10th Dan KKW (one of only 52....& most of those were awarded after death!) I love this art, sometimes.


 

Since posting this, I've found out that GM Park, Hae Man is a 9th Dan KKW, not 10th Dan. At this point (although there is talk of changing it) 10th Dan KKW is always posthumous.


----------



## terryl965

GM Kim out of California was just given his 9th by the KKW and he is still a very great teacher of the Art of TKD.


----------



## IcemanSK

terryl965 said:


> GM Kim out of California was just given his 9th by the KKW and he is still a very great teacher of the Art of TKD.


 

Excellent news!:asian:


----------



## irishwolf08

Mine's a 6th Dan, testing this summer for his 7th. His wife, also another teacher is testing for her 3rd Dan.


----------



## cbjr5

Two of my instructors are 5th Dans, and another is a 4th Dan.


----------



## Zendokan

andyjeffries said:


> I completely agree with you, but I have come across people in the past doing Taekwondo movements but with Japanese terminology for the basic movements (very weird to hear/discuss). I had hoped we had one such guy here so I could find out how that came about or his instructor's background.
> 
> But as I said, I'm with you...


 
You think that was weird, I sometimes crosstrain with other clubs, usted to be with a kyokushin karate club ( really improved my TKD), since I stopped with TKD I do now crosstraining for my HKD or JJJ.
this year I went to a "Happo Jutsu" club (= style that was created from HKD and JJJ). There they used korean terminology for the kicks and throws, japanese for the punches and groundfight. That really doesn't sound.

PS: My instructor was a 4th dan with ITF and a 3rd dan with WTF.


----------



## Svart

Study under Grand Master Chun Suk Suh. 9th Dan Kukkiwon.


----------



## Ms. Sheryl

My instructor earned his 2nd Dan this past spring.  I just earned my 1st Dan last month and was made assistant instructor a week ago.  We have a very small school with mainly children.  There is one other adult other than myself and Mr. Kurt.


----------



## Cirdan

There must be a lot of 9th Dans out there since almost 1 in 6 have one as their main instructor...


----------



## YoungMan

I can vouch for my Instructor's 9th Dan because I checked with the Kukkiwon and it was authenticated. No "Honorary" or self made for him.


----------



## Svart

Cirdan said:


> There must be a lot of 9th Dans out there since almost 1 in 6 have one as their main instructor...



Chun Suk Suh, Grandmaster of Chung Do Kwan in Australia.

http://www.mosmandaily.com.au/article/2007/08/29/1303_sports.html

Here ye go.
http://cdktkdnt.tripod.com/
Far left in photo.

Just retired as Vice President of Taekwondo Australia. I think hes legit


----------



## YoungMan

Unfortunately, for every one legitimate 9th Dan, there must at least 10 of the sort I just described. That's because it's so easy to do it.


----------



## tko4u

My instructor is currently a 5th Dan with the USCDKA. However, his instructor is Sr. Grandmaster Sell, a 9th Dan, and founder of the USCDKA.


----------



## Inugami

my master is almost 5th dan and he's very legit, so is the school.


----------



## Cirdan

Inugami said:


> my master is almost 5th dan and he's very legit, so is the school.


 
He is a 4,9 Dan?


----------



## Inugami

huh? I mean hes going to test soon.


----------



## Hajime

Saseong Mel Steiner. Best teacher in the world baby! Chi Taekwon-Do


----------



## Dinkus Mayhem

I believe my instructor is 3rd dan (WTF, Kukkiwon), Hapkido 2nd dan and a black belt in Kumdo as well.

I am new to all this (so I could be wrong), but if I remember her certificates on the wall correctly those are the ranks she has earned.


----------



## SlickRick

6th Degree Black Belt, his younger brother was a 4th degree

both awesome


----------



## karatemom

The main one is a 6th degree master
One just received his 5th degree earlier this year (that's the one I posted the freestyle video on)

Also have 2 5th degree senior instuctors fill in from time to time.


----------



## tae-kwon-tad

Mr. Jesse is a 2nd Dan in Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and Kumdo!


----------



## CDKJudoka

Sah Bu Nim Michael Donohue 5th Dan TKD CDK, 2nd Dan Haidong Kumdo and his instructor is KJN Hyun Ok Shin, 9th Dan Chung Do Kwan. Not too sure of his lineage, but the style reminds me a lot of Shotokan with more kicks and very deep stances for forms. He is also a Hapkido Black Belt, but I am not sure of what degree. I have been told from others outside of the organisation that he studied under Jhoon Rhee for TKD.


----------



## Aefibird

My old TKD instructor was 5th Dan (Kukkikwon). 

The instructor at my new club is 4th Dan, but it's an independent school, not affiliated with anyone else. I know his 1st Dan was with the WTF, but I'm unsure about the others, I shall have to ask him on Friday! :-D


----------



## IcemanSK

Aefibird said:


> My old TKD instructor was 5th Dan (Kukkikwon).
> 
> The instructor at my new club is 4th Dan, but it's an independent school, not affiliated with anyone else. I know his 1st Dan was with the WTF, but I'm unsure about the others, I shall have to ask him on Friday! :-D


 
Welcome to MT, Ms. Bird. If you haven't already, go to the Meet & Greet section & introduce yourself to the whole class.


----------



## Aefibird

IcemanSK said:


> Welcome to MT, Ms. Bird.



Thank you!


----------



## wipeout

cali_tkdbruin said:


> WHAAAAAT?!? A 12th dan?!? I'm no TKD newby, but that's a new one to me! I just didn't know. Man, I feel like a real dumbass now cuz I thought 10th dan was *top dogg *too!!! Oh well, I guess it's true then, the study and learning of the martial arts is infinite. You learn something new all the time in the MAs... :uhyeah:


 
GM General Choi Hong Hi, the FOUNDER of TKD, the true top dog of all time was a 9th dan.. there are only 9 dans, the number 9 has great significance in Korean and chinese culture: the number 3 is written in chinese as three horizontal lines, one line represents heaven, the 2nd represents man, and the 3rd represents the earth.. he who joins these 3 realms is said to be a king among men, this is why the chinese word for king is three horizontal lines, joined by a vertical line...
3 multiplied by 3 is 9, the highest of high.. this is why general Choi made 9 dans.

References: A killing art, Alex Gillis


----------



## Earl Weiss

wipeout said:


> GM General Choi Hong Hi, the FOUNDER of TKD, the true top dog of all time was a 9th dan.. there are only 9 dans, the number 9 has great significance in Korean and chinese culture: the number 3 is written in chinese as three horizontal lines, one line represents heaven, the 2nd represents man, and the 3rd represents the earth.. he who joins these 3 realms is said to be a king among men, this is why the chinese word for king is three horizontal lines, joined by a vertical line...
> 3 multiplied by 3 is 9, the highest of high.. this is why general Choi made 9 dans.
> 
> References: A killing art, Alex Gillis


 

Hmm, interesting post. I also note it is the date you joined the forum.  I hope  you are wearing your fireproof shorts since it will be "Flame on" for all the non believers.


----------



## harlan

Don't know...haven't asked. In the beginning, because it just seemed...rude...to enquire. After awhile, it didn't matter.



IcemanSK said:


> I'm curious about what your instructor's rank is. I just wonder what the average rank would be. Call it a spin off from the "what rank are you" thread we have every so often.


----------



## IcemanSK

harlan said:


> Don't know...haven't asked. In the beginning, because it just seemed...rude...to enquire. After awhile, it didn't matter.


 
Harlan, I think that's great! We in the US (& I'm as guilty of it as anyone) seem to make it a all too important question. I spoke to my 1st instructor last night (with whom I hadn't spoken in 22 years) & while he was impressed that I'd been training all this time, my rank never came up. 

Good on you!


----------



## DBZ

My insuctors rank has not come up That much. I was more interested in how many years they had trained


----------



## Earl Weiss

DBZ said:


> My insuctors rank has not come up That much. I was more interested in how many years they had trained


 
Please note the folowing is intended as a general comment and in no way directed to the poster specificaly. 

Therein lies a couple of potential problems. Naive people walk in the door of a martial art school and are impressed by a bunch of people dancing in their pajamas (different story). Anyway they have no way of measuring the quality of the material.   Worse yet, many never go outside their little circle and never have a comparison. 

Then you have the issue of "how many years have they triained/' certainly one measure of knowledge, but often 20 years of experience is really the same experience repeated for 2o years. 

I have found the variety, viewpoints and approaches from various instructors extremely beneficial.


----------



## troubleenuf

There is also a definite difference between being in the gym once or twice a week for 20 years and someone in the gym TRAINING 5 or 6 days a week for 20 years.




Earl Weiss said:


> Please note the folowing is intended as a general comment and in no way directed to the poster specificaly.
> 
> Therein lies a couple of potential problems. Naive people walk in the door of a martial art school and are impressed by a bunch of people dancing in their pajamas (different story). Anyway they have no way of measuring the quality of the material.   Worse yet, many never go outside their little circle and never have a comparison.
> 
> Then you have the issue of "how many years have they triained/' certainly one measure of knowledge, but often 20 years of experience is really the same experience repeated for 2o years.
> 
> I have found the variety, viewpoints and approaches from various instructors extremely beneficial.


----------



## msmitht

Which one? Lets see....
age 6-9 shotokan....sensei Hiro was a 3rd dan JKA
age 9-12 Emile Wright was a 4th dan ITF (thief!!! left town with many students paid tuition)
age 12-13 Carole marshall was a 3rd dan itf
then there was Moon Ku Baek who was a 9th dan MDK and a 7th dan ITF
Young Lee was a 9th dan wtf/itf
chul Koo Yoon 8th dan wtf
jin hwan kim 9th dan in many (too many to list)
and my BJJ coach is a 5th dan who has trained for 35 years


----------



## chrispillertkd

msmitht said:


> Young Lee was a 9th dan wtf/itf


 
Interesting. Do you know when GM Lee received his 9th dan from the ITF?

Pax,

Chris


----------



## goingd

Both my masters are Kukkiwon 4th Dan. Neither of them care much for testing, so when I'm ready to get passed 3rd I'll be testing with one of their grand masters.


----------



## grado

how do I know the rank?


----------



## Laurentkd

grado said:


> how do I know the rank?


 
Well, sometimes its really easy and you can just count the stripes on his belt 

But, you could also see if there is an instructor bio on your school's website (if you have one). Or just ask a senior student or your instructor.  How and when you would ask would really depend on the instructor...

Or, you could give us his/her name and someone here might know.

Welcome to Martial Talk


----------



## IcemanSK

grado said:


> how do I know the rank?




Muay Thai folks don't usually use a belt system. Therefore rank isn't the issue it is in other systems. I have seen a few who do use them, however.


----------



## miguksaram

wipeout said:


> GM General Choi Hong Hi, the FOUNDER of TKD, the true top dog of all time was a 9th dan.. there are only 9 dans, the number 9 has great significance in Korean and chinese culture: the number 3 is written in chinese as three horizontal lines, one line represents heaven, the 2nd represents man, and the 3rd represents the earth.. he who joins these 3 realms is said to be a king among men, this is why the chinese word for king is three horizontal lines, joined by a vertical line...
> 3 multiplied by 3 is 9, the highest of high.. this is why general Choi made 9 dans.
> 
> References: A killing art, Alex Gillis


 
Thank you for that most hillarious post.  I will be sure to forward it to my joke of day mailing list.

Choi was not the FOUNDER of TKD.  Perhaps he "founded" the name and "founded" his own organization, but he was not the FOUNDER of TKD.  There are have been many threads that jump on this topic.  Feel free to read them.  

He was not the true top dog..Again, read through the mulitple threads which disputes his claim to fame.  He did not come up with the 9 dan system either, which is what your post implies.  This type of system was in place long before he came around. 

As for '9' being a magic number, I will have to check on that one.  I know '4' is significant and '8' is but I never heard of nine being such a big deal.


----------



## Earl Weiss

miguksaram said:


> Thank you for that most hillarious post. I will be sure to forward it to my joke of day mailing list.
> 
> Choi was not the FOUNDER of TKD. Perhaps he "founded" the name and "founded" his own organization, but he was not the FOUNDER of TKD. There are have been many threads that jump on this topic. Feel free to read them.
> 
> He was not the true top dog..Again, read through the mulitple threads which disputes his claim to fame. He did not come up with the 9 dan system either, which is what your post implies. This type of system was in place long before he came around.
> 
> As for '9' being a magic number, I will have to check on that one. I know '4' is significant and '8' is but I never heard of nine being such a big deal.


 
Before one can argue  if General Choi was or was not the founder of TKD, one would first have to define what TKD is. 

Since no definition is universaly accepted, the founder argument is like asking how  many angels can dance on the head of a pin. 

Nine is a big deal due to 3 being a bis deal and 3x3 is therefore a bigger deal, as well as it being the largest single digit number contrasted with 10 gup levels where 10 is the smallest 2 digit number ... and how many angels....


----------



## dortiz

I think its fair to say that an art which took its basis from a few Japanese schools and some Chinese influence and that was originally divided in to several Kwans does not have one Founder.
It has many and yes Choi was probably one of the greatest components to what we see as todays art, although more so on the ITF side.
This was posted on the other thread and for all my years I somehow missed it. Very good reading as well.
http://tkd.stanford.edu/documents/tkd_history.pdf

Dave O.

Number Nine, Number Nine..Number Nine


----------



## terryl965

My lord here we go again, did we not do this enough thoughout all the other threads? I mean General Choi is consider the father of modern TKD, not the sport but the ITF. In the end I would like to know one thing can I be consider a founding father of TKD in my own mind and if so that is all that matters.


----------



## dortiz

We did but it will always come up again. I like this description best of all.

"General Choi is consider the father of modern TKD"

That to me makes sense.

But please remember my opinion wont buy you a cup of coffee ; )

Dave O.


----------



## Earl Weiss

dortiz said:


> We did but it will always come up again. I like this description best of all.
> 
> "General Choi is consider the father of modern TKD"
> 
> That to me makes sense.
> 
> But please remember my opinion wont buy you a cup of coffee ; )
> 
> Dave O.


 

I guess it depends how old you are . For me, "Modern TKD"  is a redundant statements since TKD did not exist before 1955.  For my kids, anything before 1990 is not modern.


----------



## miguksaram

dortiz said:


> We did but it will always come up again. I like this description best of all.
> 
> "General Choi is consider the father of modern TKD"
> 
> That to me makes sense.
> 
> But please remember my opinion wont buy you a cup of coffee ; )
> 
> Dave O.


 
I wouldn't say founder of Modern TKD at all.  I would just say founder of the ITF.  Nothing more and nothing less.

I am not saying Choi didn't have a say in the development, but he is not the founder of TKD.  TKD was group effort not the single effort of one man.


----------



## Earl Weiss

miguksaram said:


> I wouldn't say founder of Modern TKD at all. I would just say founder of the ITF. Nothing more and nothing less.
> 
> I am not saying Choi didn't have a say in the development, but he is not the founder of TKD. TKD was group effort not the single effort of one man.


 

This is an opinion. Nothing more.  
Others are equaly valid.  I would reccomend "A Killing Art" to anyone who is interested in following the political machinations and development.


----------



## miguksaram

Earl Weiss said:


> This is an opinion. Nothing more.
> Others are equaly valid. I would reccomend "A Killing Art" to anyone who is interested in following the political machinations and development.


On opinoin?  So you are saying Lee, Won-kuk, Ro, Byung-jick, Uhm, Woon-kyu, Lee, Nam-suk, Park, Chul-hee, and the others had nothing to do with the development and that Choi, Hong-hi was the only person to develope TKD?  Please tell me you are not entertaining such an idea.


----------



## miguksaram

I talked to my wife about the number 3 and 9.  Neither have significance in Korea. '4' does because the way it is written as 'death' in Chinese.  This is why you find some buildings without a '4th' floor....like ours with no 13th floor.


----------



## Earl Weiss

miguksaram said:


> On opinoin? So you are saying Lee, Won-kuk, Ro, Byung-jick, Uhm, Woon-kyu, Lee, Nam-suk, Park, Chul-hee, and the others had nothing to do with the development and that Choi, Hong-hi was the only person to develope TKD? Please tell me you are not entertaining such an idea.


 
First and foremost we would need to agree on what is TKD. I for one do not accept an all inclusive definition. I understand others do. 

Lee Won Kuk was Tang Soo Do which was Koreanized Shotokan. 
 Ro, Byong -jick was a Shotokan  classmate of Lee Won-Kuk, and founded the Song Moo Kwan, Founder of the Korea Kong Soo do Assoc. , Uhm Woon Kyu, also a Chung Do Kwan Luminary. Becoming it's head and later a big mover and Shaker in Kukki / WTF circles. 

Lee Nam -Suk, was a Chang Moo Kwan founder, and Park Chul Hee taught Kwon Bup and founded the Kang Duk Kwan. 

I consider all these kwans to be forrunners of TKD, pioneering martial artists to be sure. Some consider any Korean korean who was kicking and punching in 1955 or earlier to somehow have what they were doing transformed into TKD when the name was coined.   

What they did not only predated the name Taekwon-Do,  but many  resisted  the use of the name preferring instead, Tae Soo Do, and Kong Soo Do, etc. until they decided to capitalize on the popularity of the name. 

I see little or no effort by these people in the 1950's or 1960's to create a unified system that could be taught on an international scale. I see little or no effort by these people to train and dispatch instructors internationaly in the 1950's and 1960's.  I see little or no effort from these people to train and dispatch international demo teams in the 1950's and 1960's. I see little or no effort by these people in the 1950's and 1960's  to travel the globe and help influence Korean instructors abroad to adopt a unified name and system. 

So, did I say General Choi was the only person to develop TKD? Not by a long shot.  He had the assistance of numerous Korean martial artists many of whom were Chung Do Kwan Alums.  He was able to recruit them into the military division he headed and use their resources.


----------



## dortiz

Thats not fair reporting. What was Gen Chois original training? Those folks did work together to form the Kukkiwon based TKD and arguably now a larger world wide based art and one that went to the Olympics. A movement that he split from at that time. 
You could even argue that he became a roadblock to his own original mission in that case.
I think its a lot more of an even set of players than the post represents.

Dave O.


----------



## Earl Weiss

dortiz said:


> Thats not fair reporting. What was Gen Chois original training? Those folks did work together to form the Kukkiwon based TKD and arguably now a larger world wide based art and one that went to the Olympics. A movement that he split from at that time.
> You could even argue that he became a roadblock to his own original mission in that case.
> I think its a lot more of an even set of players than the post represents.
> 
> Dave O.


 
What was not fair reporting. 

Original Training was Shotokan as it was with many of the others. The big difference is that the original Kwans changed nothing but chose to adopt a name when it became convenient to do so.   

Kukkiwon was something that happened much later,  mainly post 1970, almost 20 years after TKD had been founded, instructors recruited and developed, and dispatched throughout the world. 

The Kukki plan was a repeat of  something General Choi had done more than a decade earlier, although admittedly more of a collaberative effort, And, was successful for the same reasons plus some adittional ones. 

 Government backing  & resources and influence. One addittional reason was that Initialy the Kukkiwon welcomed a plethora of systems. Very smart move. Later, they did and are doing exactly what General Choi did earlier. Create a new unified system with a single set of technical parameters so it could be taught and spread uniformly on a worldwide basis. This basicaly relegated many of the Kwans to a fraternal type group withou unique systems.


----------



## FierySquidFace

*Clint Bodungen* 
_Owner / Chief Instructor of Houston Combat Arts & Street Defense_ (HCA)
_HCA Tactical Ninjutsu Instructor
HCA Military Hand to Hand & CQC / Street Self Defense Instructor_
_HCA Combat Conditioning Instructor_
- 1st Degree Black Belt (Shodan) - Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (Ninjutsu / Ninpo)
- 1st Degree Black Belt (Shodan) - Ka Jumonji Do Tactical Ninjutsu
- Certified Edged Weapons Defensive Tactics Instructor - S.A.B.E.R. System
- Certified Level 3 Knife / Counter Knife Combatives Instructor - Scientific Fighting Congress (SFC)
- Certified Apache Knife Apprentice Practitioner (Instructor Candidate) - Ghost Dog System
- Certified Defensive Tactics Instructor - International Combatives Self Defense Association (iCSDA)
- Certified Combatives Instructor - International Combatives Self Defense Association (iCSDA)
- Certified Combat Martial Arts Instructor - International Combatives Self Defense Association (iCSDA)
- United States Air Force Veteran (Combat Ready Air Transport, Search & Recovery Team, Security   Forces Tactical Operations) - Honorable Discharge
- Certified Personal Fitness Trainer - ACE (American Council on Excercise)
- Licensed Private Investigator - State of Texas
- Licensed Personal Protection Officer ("Bodyguard / Executive Protection Agent) - State of Texas

*Scott Ward*
_HCA Jeet Kune Do Concepts / PFS Instructor
HCA Pacific Archipelago Combatives (PAC) / Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) Instructor
HCA Military Hand to Hand & CQC / Street Self Defense Instructor
_- Certified Full Instructor - Progressive Fighting Systems (P.F.S.) - Jeet Kune Do, Kali
- Certified Level 3 Knife / Counter Knife Combatives Instructor - Hock Hochheim (SFC)
- Certified Military Combatives / Self Defense Professional Instructor - The Self Defense Company
- Former Houston Chapter Leader of the Guardian Angels_

_*David Sobieski*
_HCA Military Hand to Hand & CQC / Street Self Defense Instructor
HCA Combat Conditioning Instructor_
_- Certified Military Combatives / Self Defense Professional Instructor - The Self Defense Company
__- Licensed Private Investigator
- Licensed Commissioned Security Officer
- Licensed Personal Protection Officer ("Bodyguard / Executive Protection Agent)
- Certified Personal Fitness Trainer
_
*Doug Vaughn*
_Elite Martial Arts and HCA Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Instructor_ 
- Brown belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu


----------



## Dana

Earl Weiss said:


> What was not fair reporting.
> 
> "Original Training was Shotokan as it was with many of the others. The big difference is that the original Kwans changed nothing but chose to adopt a name when it became convenient to do so."
> 
> Correction, Choi had an unsubstantiated claim to a 2nd dan Shotokan.  Honorary 4th dan Chung Do Kwan, revoked, for claiming high rank he did not have.
> 
> Choi's Oh Do Kwan was likely an outgrowth of his familiarity with the Chung Do Kwan (Tang Soo Do).  Admittedly, he collaborated with a student to create new forms with a slightly different flavor, but even though, forms like Won Hyo clearly show where he was coming from (Pyong Ahn Ee dan).  Choi "liked" the name Taekwondo and continued to used his military/political position to push his agenda.  This included the ability to send folks to other countries.
> 
> It is all pretty murky, and yes, Choi did push for unification before the Kukkiwon.  It is just hard to tell if he was pushing an art or an agenda.  Non-withstanding, he was a VERY important player in Taekwondo history.
> However, the current name is just that, a name; Kong Soo Do, Taesoodo or Tangsoodo probably would have went down the same road with government backing.
> 
> I do respect the man greatly, but others have also made significant contributions .
> 
> D


----------



## Earl Weiss

Dana said:


> Earl Weiss said:
> 
> 
> 
> Correction, Choi had an unsubstantiated claim to a 2nd dan Shotokan. Honorary 4th dan Chung Do Kwan, revoked, for claiming high rank he did not have.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are interested in "Corrections" or correct reporting why do you leave out what else was in the advertisement revoking his rank, what happened later to those individuals as well as the person taking out the ad?
Click to expand...


----------



## Earl Weiss

Dana said:


> Well, since this is all included in his 1965 book, where he was "Coming from" was readily apparent. Yet that same book contained many of the refinements, and revisions for the new system.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Perhaps my choice of words could have been better with regard to "Founcer". 

"Perspective' may have been a better choice than "Opinion".


----------



## Earl Weiss

Dana;1236710However said:
			
		

> This is an interesting perspective with regard to TKD being just a name. It leads to some interesting questions that need answering;
> 1. If it is just a name, why the need for a name at all? If it were merely a name for various martial arts to organize under, no name of a martial art would be needed. You simply need a name of an organization like KoreanMartial Arts org.
> 
> 2. Further, why did the name / group exclude certain groups like the Hapkido or  Yudo guys?
> 
> 3. Was it supposed to be differnt than what Kano, Funakoshi, or Ueshiba had done?
> 
> 4. Why has KKW now seen fit to create a single system for TKD?
> 
> I believe you are correct. If someone else had been succesful in promoting another name, developing instructors, recruiting instructors, dispatching people to teach ad demo under that new name, than that person would have been the founder of what was being done under that name.


----------



## dancingalone

Earl Weiss said:


> 1. If it is just a name, why the need for a name at all? If it were merely a name for various martial arts to organize under, no name of a martial art would be needed. You simply need a name of an organization like KoreanMartial Arts org.
> 
> 2. Further, why did the name / group exclude certain groups like the Hapkido or  Yudo guys?



Just my opinion, but I think there was a clear desire to control TKD from the top down, hence the need for a definitive name.  As for leaving out the hapkido people, surely it was understood up front that the kwan heads and General Choi didn't have the training or longevity to be considered the seniors in "hapkido" circles.  They would have had no credibility at all in trying to organize the hapkidoists.  And if you research hapkido/hwa rang do/kuk sool, you know they went through their own version of TKD politics.



> 3. Was it supposed to be differnt than what Kano, Funakoshi, or Ueshiba had done?



I don't necessarily agree that Kano, Funakoshi, or Ueshiba all had the same goals.  Nonetheless, it's true that their successors have organized a top down hierarchy as I believe the TKD pioneers meant to do also.



> 4. Why has KKW now seen fit to create a single system for TKD?



Because they 'won' the TKD civil war and naturally they are promoting their idea of what TKD should be.  Surely this is no different from any other faction.  We all have our own curricula and what we want to teach or showcase.


----------



## CDKJudoka

Okay, update on the info for my KJN.

His 9th Dan cert was signed by Lee, Won Kuk in 1982. 

My Judo instructor is a 6th Dan USJA


----------



## d1jinx

My instructors rank is........

*10 GUP/ White belt*.

because everytime a white belt walks in.... _I learn something new.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_


_(ps. but the guy I answer too is an 8th Dan)_


----------



## ralphmcpherson

my instructor was a 6th dan but has just moved north so Im now training under his instructor who is 7th dan.


----------



## terryl965

Mine is a 8th but at times he acts like a 5 year old, vy the way that is a good thing every once in a while...


----------

