# Category Completion



## Rainman (Jun 3, 2002)

What is category completion and how does it work?

 

:asian:


----------



## Scott Bonner (Jun 3, 2002)

I'm just a beginner (purple belt) so I can't give the best answer, but I'll try.

Essentially, one of the things that sets Kenpo apart is it's methodical, persistent investigation ("scientific", as some call it) of martial arts concepts.  That means categorizing different types of attacks, defenses, transitions, etc.

When someone says something completes a category, they mean one of two things.  First, they may mean that they have listed all the types of, say, attacks that are imaginable within a certain category -- truly, they have completed the category by learning/teaching all the elements within.  See example below.

The second thing someone might mean by the phrase is that they do not think given technique or attack is effective, but it is taught anyway because it is part of some category.  The idea is that, though the item in question is not effective for them, it should still be in the system and still be taught because it will be effective for one of their students or in some obscure situation.  Also, by analyzing every element of a "category", we can learn why that element is not commonly done even though other elements in its "category" are -- i.e. learn why no one tries to do such and such punch from such and such angle by trying it and finding out it requires a difficult weight shift, limiting it's use to very few situations.

A simple example of a "category" of motion:  You can block/parry with the _right hand_ in each of _4 frontal quadrants_.  When attacked from the upper left (i.e. by right roundhouse punch) you can do the technique Delayed Sword, which starts with a inward block with the right hand.  When attacked from the upper right, Sword of Destruction.  When attacked from the lower left, Intellectual Departure.  When attacked from the lower right, Deflecting Hammer.

Using the left hand would start a new category.  You could also make a larger category that includes both.  And so forth.  Everything is systematically laid out, so that eventually no significant stone is left unturned.  This is done by dividing the seemingly infinite information into categories and investigating each category thoroughly.

Peace,
Scott


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jun 3, 2002)

and nothing more than that! If your class is asked a question and no one happens to know the answer or does know do you just say "such and such" is category completion?:uhohh:


----------



## Scott Bonner (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *If your class is asked a question and no one happens to know the answer or does know do you just say "such and such" is category completion? *



I don't run a class, so no.    My Sensei takes pride in knowing the whys of everything and goes to great effort to get information, so when he says it, I believe him.  I suspect teachers misuse CC all the time, though.   

If you are asking, do the students say such and such is category completion, then I'd have to say they better be able to back it up, cause they'll have to name all the other elements in the category.


----------



## Rainman (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> 
> *I'm just a beginner (purple belt) so I can't give the best answer, but I'll try.
> 
> ...



thanks for the heads up


----------



## Roland (Jun 3, 2002)

Mr. Planas & Mr. Frank Trejo use this term.
Especially concerning some of the moves in the forms!


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jun 4, 2002)




----------



## jfarnsworth (Jun 4, 2002)

When in doubt answer category completion.


----------



## Scott Bonner (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> * *



Are you refering to the example I gave?  If so, the category is ways to defend with the right hand from frontal attack.  In this case, the elements of the category are limited to one simple attack (roundhouse punches and front kicks) in each of the 4 different quadrants.  Obviously, it's a simple and limited example (many ways to attack and different places to come from, well beyond just 4 quadrants or roundhouse punches and front kicks).  I didn't want to reach beyond my knowledge so I kept it small and simple.

Peace
Scott


----------



## Scott Bonner (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> 
> *When in doubt answer category completion.  *



It is childish ego that makes a teacher unable to say "I'm not sure.  Let me check on it."  So, they rely on something obscure like "it's category completion" when they don't really know what the element is for.  There is a definite place for talking about category completion, but calling it up inappropriately is just a sign of weakness.

Peace
Scott


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jun 4, 2002)

Mr. Bonner I didn't mean to get under your skin there. You gave a fine example there you can get into others like Dance of Death, Thundering Hammers, Flashing Mace, Flashing Wings, Leaping Crane and the rest of the crane family as Mr. Planas calls it. If you look at these techniques the initial move are almost identical the next move is continue the circle, cut the circle, reverse the circle. These are also a category completion phrase. The thing is I personally don't like the category completion answer. It is used way too loosely. Also I happen to like Mr. Hughes he's a good guy and talked with him on some occassions. Actually I've had lunch with him a couple of times in Mentor. I wasn't trying to disrespect him either. Hopefully you didn't take those the wrong way. 
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jun 4, 2002)

I wasn't talking about just your fine example but all the catagories possible

:asian:


----------



## Scott Bonner (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> 
> *Mr. Bonner I didn't mean to get under your skin there. You gave a fine example there you can get into others like Dance of Death, Thundering Hammers, Flashing Mace, Flashing Wings, Leaping Crane and the rest of the crane family as Mr. Planas calls it. If you look at these techniques the initial move are almost identical the next move is continue the circle, cut the circle, reverse the circle. These are also a category completion phrase. The thing is I personally don't like the category completion answer. It is used way too loosely. Also I happen to like Mr. Hughes he's a good guy and talked with him on some occassions. Actually I've had lunch with him a couple of times in Mentor. I wasn't trying to disrespect him either. Hopefully you didn't take those the wrong way.
> Jason Farnsworth *



It's cool.  You didn't get under my skin.  I could tell you didn't like the CC cop-out from the emoticons you gave.  I was trying to agree -- I think it is weak to use CC when one doesn't know the answer -- while still saying that there is great value in the concept of category completion when not used too loosely.  In short, I was agreeing with you.

You know Mr. Hughes?  From where, if I may ask?  Would you like me to say "hi" for you?

Also, just call me Scott.  Nothing wrong with formality, but I don't want any myself, thanks.


----------



## Scott Bonner (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I wasn't talking about just your fine example but all the catagories possible
> 
> :asian: *



Oh, humor.  heh heh.  Sometimes I miss that stuff.  

Thanks.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jun 4, 2002)

Scott,
You can absolutely tell Mr. Hughes I said hello. I have met with him at Mr. Planas' seminars in Mentor, Ohio over the past year or so. We've e-mailed from time to time as well. I was glad to hear you agree with me I took what you said the wrong way. That's what happens sometimes when you don't get the person on the phone rather than just a bunch of words posted somewhere. 
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jun 6, 2002)




----------



## Scott Bonner (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> * *



Ok, will do!


----------



## Nightingale (Jun 6, 2002)

I've read this whole thread, and i still don't quite know what it is.


----------



## Seig (Jun 6, 2002)

Then it is time for Thread Completion


----------



## Rainman (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *I've read this whole thread, and i still don't quite know what it is.
> 
> *



A teaching tool.   Pretend you had a category named "Inward Blocks".    You were looking at techniques-  round up all the teks that use an inward block as the first move.   Now you have completed that particular part of the category of "blocks".     Seems to me to be related to family groupings and relative positioning, grafting etc.   I found a use for it- it is hair splitting though- which I like to do.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)

this Catagory is completed!:rofl: 
:asian:


----------



## Scott Bonner (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *I've read this whole thread, and i still don't quite know what it is.
> 
> *



I can't think of a better way to describe it.  It's just being systematic, which requires putting things into categories, and then suddenly you have to complete the exploration of those categories -- category completion.  Divvy stuff up, figure it out, teach the next person what you learned.

It would be easier to show you than to tell you -- which means I don't know it well enough to tell you but it's easy enough to show things I don't fully understand.


----------



## Nightingale (Jun 7, 2002)

hehe...thanks


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jun 7, 2002)

Well, There are many different types of categories "supposedly" out there if you look for them hard enough. What I know about kenpo would only scratch a surface so to speak. I've heard about this cat. comp. ever since I started 8yrs. ago. I still don't understand a lot of it. Once again I'll state I don't care for the phrase. I'd rather know terms in family groupings or leveraging, opposits or get into that type of material. The last seminar I went to with Mr. Planas he had said hugging pendulum was leaping crane from behind. I stood & scratched my head for a while until he explained in detail why Huggnig Pendulum was Leaping Crane from behind. Is this a category completion, maybe but I'd rather not get into cat. comp. it gives me a headache. Once again this is just my two pennies. One person's opinion and nothing more than that.
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## Rainman (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> 
> *Well, There are many different types of categories "supposedly" out there if you look for them hard enough. What I know about kenpo would only scratch a surface so to speak. I've heard about this cat. comp. ever since I started 8yrs. ago. I still don't understand a lot of it. Once again I'll state I don't care for the phrase. I'd rather know terms in family groupings or leveraging, opposits or get into that type of material. The last seminar I went to with Mr. Planas he had said hugging pendulum was leaping crane from behind. I stood & scratched my head for a while until he explained in detail why Huggnig Pendulum was Leaping Crane from behind. Is this a category completion, maybe but I'd rather not get into cat. comp. it gives me a headache. Once again this is just my two pennies. One person's opinion and nothing more than that.
> Jason Farnsworth *



Depends on how you use it.  Start small like the example I gave and let it grow.   As long as things follow a logical process based on concepts, theories, and principles you can use ideas anyway you want.   How many ways can you apply pressure to someone?

:asian:


----------



## kenpo3631 (Jun 27, 2002)

Category completion, as much as GD will debate, is legitiment.

Take the handsword strikes for example. Apply the different direction you can use, i.e Upward, downward, inward, outward, diagonal, forward, backward. Reverse edge and traditional knife edge. Then the types Hammering, whipping, thrusting, etc. 

Now do it with the right, then the left, then both. Do it upside down and rightside up, figure eights, etc. On the inside of an arm, on the outside. Can you see where I am going with this?

I heard that once you learn all the forms up to Long 6 you'll know all the opposites and reverses. Apply that to a weapon and see where it leads you. You can only use a weapon in so many ways.

When you have exhuasted all the "practical" means of applying the weapon you have completed that category.

At least that's the way I look at it. :asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jun 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _*
> My Sensei takes pride ..............
> *



Do you learn American Kenpo or a blend?  The reason I ask is that "Sensei" is not normally used to refer to your teacher.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jun 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _*
> Category completion, as much as GD will debate, is legitiment.
> *



Wait a sec....... I never said it was not legitimate.....  just looking for clarification, and supportive material once the term was used.  It seemed that at times when someone was asked a question on something ..... they answered with "category completion".   I never heard Mr. Parker use the term.  So was curious where the term originated and just what categories were completed.  



> *
> Take the handsword strikes for example.
> Apply the different direction you can use, i.e Upward, downward, inward, outward, diagonal, forward, backward.
> 
> ...



So, is that the formula you follow, it looks confusing to me..... or is there an easier way of looking at it?

I use the rule Mr. Parker gave me, which is to examine the forward and reverse as well as the opposites of each movement  in Kenpo..... is this the same thing?

:asian:


----------



## kenpo3631 (Jun 27, 2002)

> Wait a sec....... I never said it was not legitimate..... just looking for clarification, and supportive material once the term was used.



Okay. My bad



> So, is that the formula you follow, it looks confusing to me..... or is there an easier way of looking at it?



How do you confuse a Sun Devil? Put him in a round room and tell him to stand in the corner...:rofl: 



> I use the rule Mr. Parker gave me, which is to examine the forward and reverse as well as the opposites of each movement in Kenpo..... is this the same thing?



I my own words I guess, yeah...:asian:


----------



## Scott Bonner (Jun 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



American Kenpo.  My instructor is Clint Hughes.  Our school is part of the CKF, under Sean Kelly and Huk Planas.

Mr. Hughes being called "Sensei" is, as far as I can tell, a leftover from before he got into American Kenpo.  You'd have to ask him.  I've tried to start a campaign to call him Sifu, but if failed.  :shrug: He doesn't suggest any title, just that we be respectful, but calling him Sensei continues anyway.

I usually call him "Sir".


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jun 27, 2002)

just curious thats all...... I know some use it ..

:asian:


----------



## Seig (Jun 28, 2002)

That's about the only thing so far that my studnets have bucked me on, so far.  They really like the title and do not want to give it up.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _*
> How do you confuse a Sun Devil? Put him in a round room and tell him to stand in the corner...
> *



Oh, now that was lowwwwwwwwwwww

Sun Devils don't get confused...... they just poke you with their Trident!

:rofl:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _*
> That's about the only thing so far that my studnets have bucked me on, so far.  They really like the title and do not want to give it up.
> *



Mr. Parker didn't like it only because it was Japanese, since we are American he preferred Mr. Mrs. Ms. etc., to accent His system.

We used to use the Sifu and Chinese terms but I dropped them as well.  I do like to teach the different terms for well rounding of the students knowledge.

:asian:


----------

