# tang soo do vs tae kwan do



## paulH (May 10, 2008)

Forgive my ignorance... but whats the difference,

I have a friend who has studdied tand soo do but what are the differences between tsd and tkd... 

tsd has forms / katas and tkd is more sprts based is the impression i get... but i dont know...

can anybody enlighten me?


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## terryl965 (May 10, 2008)

TSD and TKD both have Poomsae/Kata's, they both have SD principle and both do just about the same thing. The major differences is in TKD they have been split for years, some is more sport orientated and other hold true to the SD principle that once was tought.

I believe they are like very close cousins, in one they hold more true to what once was and the other being TKD went a seperate direction and more to the sport side of things.


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## paulH (May 10, 2008)

is there much hand work in tsd?...

seems mostly kicks (and most of them high) from the clips ive seen?


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## terryl965 (May 10, 2008)

paulH said:


> is there much hand work in tsd?...
> 
> seems mostly kicks (and most of them high) from the clips ive seen?


 
Yes there are hands techniques in both arts, ow sport TKD does not really use the hands.


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## exile (May 10, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Yes there are hands techniques in both arts, ow sport TKD does not really use the hands.



Right. And don't go by video clips, particularly when you're dealing with TKD, where most of the clips you'll see are from sparring matches under WTF Olympic-style rules which de facto _penalize_ you for using hand techs. It's like watching the Indy 500 and coming to the conclusion that cars, in general, cannot make right- or left-hand turns, never go into reverse, and have room for only the driver. That kind of distortion is a danger with any MA, but in one which has such an overwhelming sport-competitive side to it, the risk of getting the wrong impression from a vid clip is especially bad.


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## SageGhost83 (May 10, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I believe they are like very close cousins, in one they hold more true to what once was and the other being TKD went a seperate direction and more to the sport side of things.


 
I second that. Also, TSD still practices a lot of the original O/J forms and TKD has scrapped those forms in favor of new forms.


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## paulH (May 10, 2008)

exile said:


> Right. And don't go by video clips, particularly when you're dealing with TKD, where most of the clips you'll see are from sparring matches under WTF Olympic-style rules which de facto _penalize_ you for using hand techs. It's like watching the Indy 500 and coming to the conclusion that cars, in general, cannot make right- or left-hand turns, never go into reverse, and have room for only the driver. That kind of distortion is a danger with any MA, but in one which has such an overwhelming sport-competitive side to it, the risk of getting the wrong impression from a vid clip is especially bad.


 
coming from a jkd background my reference point is always how useful is it in a fight...

from what you have said would i be right in thinking a tsd practitioner is likley to be a more rounded fighter than tkd as the tks practitioner is unlikley to practice their hand techniques as much as a tsd practitioner?

also is there much pad work?...

i have a friend visiting who does tsd and might do some training with them...


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## MBuzzy (May 10, 2008)

You will also hear Soo Bahk Do associated with Tang Soo Do.  Within the SBD organization, there have been forms created that are not of Japanese descent, they are actually more chinese influenced.  

TSD is pretty well balanced between foot and hand techniques.

Also, you will find volumes of information on the differences with some searches on existing threads.  In fact, there might even be some other threads on this topic.


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## MBuzzy (May 10, 2008)

paulH said:


> coming from a jkd background my reference point is always how useful is it in a fight...
> 
> from what you have said would i be right in thinking a tsd practitioner is likley to be a more rounded fighter than tkd as the tks practitioner is unlikley to practice their hand techniques as much as a tsd practitioner?
> 
> ...


 
I think you'll have problems when you get into comparing fighters.  You're going to have great fighters from either style, both well rounded, and both just as likely to use hands or feet depending on individual skill and school.  

Pad work depends completely on the school.  Ours does very little, but I've been to some who do very much pad work.


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## Makalakumu (May 10, 2008)

Pad work.  That's all we do in order to practice our basics.  I'm of the mind that it makes little sense to march up and down the floor...unless you are learning a technique for a hyung.  I'd rather have my students have some ability to apply force to a target with resistance.  I've been to a few TKD schools who also did this, except most of what they practiced were kicks and kicking combos.


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## exile (May 10, 2008)

paulH said:


> coming from a jkd background my reference point is always how useful is it in a fight...
> 
> from what you have said would i be right in thinking a tsd practitioner is likley to be a more rounded fighter than tkd as the tks practitioner is unlikley to practice their hand techniques as much as a tsd practitioner?
> 
> ...



*UpNorth* and *MBuzzy* have made the right points here, Paul. I'd just add that with TKD, you'll probably find a lot more dojangs that are pretty much completely sport oriented; but there are also schools which emphasize SD much more heavily, and in these schools, the mix of hand and foot techs are likely to be balanced in much the same way as TKD. We train elbows and knees as prime striking weapons in my school, and other techs that are illegal in competitive TKD but belong to the TKD technical arsenal (as shown by their use in the hyungs we study).

I think a good deal of the difference between the two arts is a function of the fact that TKD is much more centrally controlled than TSD, as you'd expect from the fact that there is a huge sporteaucracy associated with any Olympic sport. Much more central control, much more top-down, much more of a Korean-oriented agenda. TSD strikes me as more like karate institutionally: much smaller associations, much less imposition of curriculum from above, much more lattitude to set the course at the individual dojang level.


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## Deaf Smith (May 10, 2008)

exile said:


> Right. And don't go by video clips, particularly when you're dealing with TKD, where most of the clips you'll see are from sparring matches under WTF Olympic-style rules which de facto _penalize_ you for using hand techs. It's like watching the Indy 500 and coming to the conclusion that cars, in general, cannot make right- or left-hand turns, never go into reverse, and have room for only the driver. That kind of distortion is a danger with any MA, but in one which has such an overwhelming sport-competitive side to it, the risk of getting the wrong impression from a vid clip is especially bad.


 
And how! And I can say this from having studied TKD and SBD.

I wish the Olympic TKD would just call itself OTKD. Kind of like IPSC used to mean 'practical shooting' but it's gone way way overboard (sorry,but I love to shoot as much as I like martial arts and IPSC used to be a very good form of training tool for the use of the defensive pistol.)

As for differences. Oh there are some definalty. TSD and SBD do lots of beathing exercises, and I can say they emphasize the historical and cultural aspects much more than any TKD school I've been in. Also you will see some Chineese as well as Japanese and Korean methods.

Deaf


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## DMcHenry (May 10, 2008)

From my experience, TKD can vary A LOT, from a very traditional/classical "old school" way which is virtually identical to TSD to the modern sport "Olympic" style others have mentioned here. The ITF TKD is closer to TSD and less sport oriented, but have implemented the "sine wave" in their movement. ATA TKD and offshoots completely revamped they way they do things and their forms. TKD is a very generic overview term for Korean Karate and can encompass old style art to modern sport.

TSD although can be very different from school to school or association to association is still more consistent in it's look and approach. The modern derivation of TSD SooBahkDo has newer forms and movements that look more Chinese in flavor.

Again this is a very simplistic overview of the differences/similarities. The first style of TKD I trained in was virtually identical to TSD. I've trained in several other schools and preferred the old style, thus I just stick to TSD now but may crosstrain and play with other TKD guys when I get a chance. It's all good, just different approaches depending on what you like.


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## exile (May 10, 2008)

DMcHenry said:


> From my experience, TKD can vary A LOT, from a very traditional/classical "old school" way which is virtually identical to TSD...



I know just what you're talking about, Master Mac! 



DMcHenry said:


> ... to the modern sport "Olympic" style others have mentioned here. The ITF TKD is closer to TSD and less sport oriented, but have implemented the "sine wave" in their movement. ATA TKD and offshoots completely revamped they way they do things and their forms. TKD is a very generic overview term for Korean Karate and can encompass old style art to modern sport.
> 
> TSD although can be very different from school to school or association to association is still more consistent in it's look and approach. The modern derivation of TSD SooBahkDo has newer forms and movements that look more Chinese in flavor.[/COLOR]
> 
> Again this is a very simplistic overview of the differences/similarities. *The first style of TKD I trained in was virtually identical to TSD.*




You've piqued my curiosity... what style was that? Some of the Song Moo Kwan lineages, like mine, through Gm. Joon Pye Choi,  fit that description to a T (though not all do, as I've recently discovered). And I'd be willing to bet that some of the Moo Duk Kwan TKD schools are like that as well.  




DMcHenry said:


> I've trained in several other schools and preferred the old style, thus I just stick to TSD now but may crosstrain and play with other TKD guys when I get a chance. It's all good, just different approaches depending on what you like.



I agree, it really is a matter of what you go for. But I have to say, I much prefer the 'horizontal' organizational structure of TSD, where the individual dojang seems to be the primary instructional and technical unit, rather than the Korean-based TKD way, where Big Brother seems just about to start watching you.

I see, in the not too distant future, a splitting-off of the traditional TKD schools from TKD Central in Seoul, and eventually a rapprochement between the version of TKD that the breakaway schools do on the one hand and TSD on the other. I don't see why a clash amongst a group of now mostly deceased players getting on for half a century ago should continue to keep people with a common MA vision institutionally separate from their like-minded KMA colleagues. Wishful thinking, maybe... but not impossible by any means, eh?


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## terryl965 (May 10, 2008)

Yes Exile MDKTKD is like that, I know the actual resemblish of the two arts are so canny. That if you did not know better you would think same exact Kwon. Well that is enough from me right now be back later.


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## DMcHenry (May 11, 2008)

*



The first style of TKD I trained in was virtually identical to TSD.

You've piqued my curiosity... what style was that?

Click to expand...

 
I always thought it must have been a MDK TKD style, but now I'm not positively sure.  My instructor was the late Master Kim Chang-soo, older brother of GM Kim Pyung-soo of Chayonryu TKD (whom I also trained with later in college) at the University of Houston.

When I got older I was trying to go back and find more information about him but haven't been able to find out any information.  I've tried writing Kim Soo but never heard back from him.  There is one person that I know of I'd like to talk to that I remember was there when I was and may have the answers, as he was one of the black belt instructors training there. I think he did teach Song Moo Kwan and I'd like to know if that was what my instructor was teaching.*


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## exile (May 11, 2008)

DMcHenry said:


> I always thought it must have been a MDK TKD style, but now I'm not positively sure.  My instructor was the late Master Kim Chang-soo, older brother of GM Kim Pyung-soo of Chayonryu TKD (whom I also trained with later in college) at the University of Houston.
> 
> When I got older I was trying to go back and find more information about him but haven't been able to find out any information.  I've tried writing Kim Soo but never heard back from him.  There is one person that I know of I'd like to talk to that I remember was there when I was and may have the answers, as he was one of the black belt instructors training there. I think he did teach Song Moo Kwan and I'd like to know if that was what my instructor was teaching.



Whatever you find out, I'd be very interested in hearing about. You might try querying Master Rob McLain, one of our MartialTalk members (username is rmclain) who also is a student of Gm. Kim Pyung-soo....


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## terryl965 (May 11, 2008)

DMcHenry said:


> *I always thought it must have been a MDK TKD style, but now I'm not positively sure. My instructor was the late Master Kim Chang-soo, older brother of GM Kim Pyung-soo of Chayonryu TKD (whom I also trained with later in college) at the University of Houston.*
> 
> *When I got older I was trying to go back and find more information about him but haven't been able to find out any information. I've tried writing Kim Soo but never heard back from him. There is one person that I know of I'd like to talk to that I remember was there when I was and may have the answers, as he was one of the black belt instructors training there. I think he did teach Song Moo Kwan and I'd like to know if that was what my instructor was teaching.*


 

Robert Mclain is the person to talk to, his user name is rmclain and visit here often. How is it you lost touch with him after being one of his student. Do you also remember Master Garcia and Master  George Mendez they both came out of there about the same time frame as you.


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## rmclain (May 11, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Robert Mclain is the person to talk to, his user name is rmclain and visit here often. How is it you lost touch with him after being one of his student. Do you also remember Master Garcia and Master George Mendez they both came out of there about the same time frame as you.


 
Kim Chang-soo died, but I don't remember how long ago.  I got the impression it was a while ago.  Grandmaster Kim has spoken some about him, but not much.  Kim Chang-soo was older brother of Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo, but didn't start training until Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo was already around a 3rd or 4th degree black belt, if I remember correctly.  Seems to me, Kim Chang-soo studied at either Grandmaster Park Chul-hee's Kangduk-Won or at The Korean Taekwon-karate Academy, founded by Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo in 1964 in Seoul. Perhaps he did both.  

There are a few pictures of Kim Chang-soo in the photos at this link: http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-old-days/song-duk-ki.html

I'm trying not to be too picky, but Chayon-Ryu is not a type of taekwondo.  To put it into perspective, there are around 50 forms (hyung) required for 5th Dan in Chayon-Ryu.  Only 11 of those come from Taekwondo.

R. McLain


R. McLain


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## DMcHenry (May 12, 2008)

Hey Master McClain, long time no talk to. Yes, Kim Chang-soo died quite a while back but I don't remember the exact date. My mom had seen the article in the local paper and sent it to me, knowing he had been my instructor.

Yes, Chayon-ryu was different than what Kim Chang-soo taught. The person I was thinking of that was there when I was is Master Randy Young, whom I believe is in Baytown now. I'd like to talk to him if I can get his contact info.

I remember seeing a copy of Kim Chang-soo's visa (??) that he came over to the US in 1968 I believe as a "martial arts instructor" (may have said Karate Instructor). He was a 7th Dan at the time. I remember a student transferring over from one of Kim Pyung-soo's schools and thought it odd that the student performed many techniques differently. The two most obvious things I remember seeing was roundhouse kick using the instep and the rear hand of the middle knife hand block chamber being much lower than the way we chambered. Master Kim didn't like outside influences in his school and throughly tested transfer students to check them out.

Once while hanging out with Master Conrad at a bar (he was there to visit my boss, who is Kim Soo's brother-in-law) we mostly just talked about GM Kim Soo. I didn't think to ask much about Master Kim Chang-soo.

I think Master Kim got mad at me for training with another instructor in TangSooDo and ShotoKan. Once I went back to see him and hopefully train with him again, and he basically asked us to leave, saying my wife was too attractive and distracting for his students..... and because I had trained elsewhere he wouldn't let me join his class again (again, he didn't like outside influences in his class). I eventually found GM Kim Jae-joon and just almost completely switched over to TSD only. Funny thing though, Kim Jae-joon is listed as 9th dan Kukkiwon TKD too.

I remember seeing a lot of cool old photos of Master Kim (and I'm pretty sure had GM Kim in there too) at the school. GM Kim Pyung-soo did know I trained with his brother, but we didn't talk about him when I trained with GM Kim. When I worked for their brother-in-law, he knew I trained with both of them and invited me to dinner at his house, where GM Kim's sister prepared a teriffic Korean lunch for us. I just didn't think much about the history back then - just trained and didn't ask questions. He was supposed to be a TKD master as well, but I worked for him only as an employee at a hotel he owned.

If you get the chance to ask GM Kim about his brother, I'd appriciate it if you'd let me know. It's like not knowing anything about your father's background or history. Master Kim Chang-soo was very influential for me and caused me to stick with it and have a long KMA career. My sister was also his first female student. I miss that school and training there. My number was 478B (my sister was "A"). With all the things I've forgotten, funny the little details I do remember. I even remember my very first day.

Take care,
Mac


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## Deaf Smith (May 13, 2008)

DMcHenry said:


> *I always thought it must have been a MDK TKD style, but now I'm not positively sure. My instructor was the late Master Kim Chang-soo, older brother of GM Kim Pyung-soo of Chayonryu TKD (whom I also trained with later in college) at the University of Houston.*
> 
> *When I got older I was trying to go back and find more information about him but haven't been able to find out any information. I've tried writing Kim Soo but never heard back from him. There is one person that I know of I'd like to talk to that I remember was there when I was and may have the answers, as he was one of the black belt instructors training there. I think he did teach Song Moo Kwan and I'd like to know if that was what my instructor was teaching.*


 
Mine was TKD MDK and yes I can say for a fadt they are alot alike. Same forms. Basai included. Belts went White, Yellow, Green, Red, Black. 9th white to 1st Red then from 1 to 9 dan.

Deaf


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## Montecarlodrag (May 26, 2008)

TSD and TKD (like any MA) can vary a lot from one dojang to another, even in the same city. It depends on the lineage of the dojang and style of the Instructor. So, you can find a TSD style which is almost identical to TKD. In another city, you may find the very opposite.

I have seen TSD students which I'd swear they were TKD or any MA but TSD.
Training methods are very different between dojangs too. Some are hard and some are softer.

In my Dojang, we have the OLD method. It is very hard, traditional and authentic.
But, the problem is the people, *they are lazy*. The majority of students don't like hard training. They think a martial artist can be made in a single week, like a Holywood movie.

We ran out of students 6 times in 15 years. Had to close dojang and start over because people doesn't like hard work.

Because of this, many schools go to the easy side of MA: Soft trainings, easy Black Belts in 3 years, fraudulent tournaments, soft sparring, no sweat at all.
Its the easy way to have many students and make profit. As a matter of fact, many dojang owners only care about money.

We discussed this many times when we closed a dojang. We were faced with the decision of going soft and have many students, or continue the same way and have few. 
We decided to continue hard, even if we are alone. Is better to have 1 good BB each 5 years rather than 50 bad.

I have had 6 year old kids crying in anger trying to break a wood or doing a difficult thing in a gup test. They know the just have to do it or keep the same belt. It's Martial Art, period.
We even lower the rank to students who don't keep the hard work and get lazy.

Many people say to us this is archaic, but we think this is the real TSD.
Some parents take their child away cause they think we are torturing them. No single student has been injured since I remember.

We train at sub-zero temperatures at morning, no shoes. We train outdoors under the sun with hot floor, or raining, again no shoes. 
We do sparring with no protection, only gloves. A Sa Bom Nim once told me "If there is no blood and bruises, it isn't sparring"
Few students withstand this. Some parents have told me we're crazy. I said: It's the Tang way, for crying out loud! accept it or take your kid to the boy scouts. (Some of them did  )



Tang Soo!


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## SageGhost83 (May 27, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> TSD and TKD (like any MA) can vary a lot from one dojang to another, even in the same city. It depends on the lineage of the dojang and style of the Instructor. So, you can find a TSD style which is almost identical to TKD. In another city, you may find the very opposite.
> 
> I have seen TSD students which I'd swear they were TKD or any MA but TSD.
> Training methods are very different between dojangs too. Some are hard and some are softer.
> ...


 
If only there were more people like you in the KMA, and if only there were more schools like yours around in general. The problems these days is that students, people in general, are waaay tooo lazyyy! It is reflected throughout society at large, too. TKD and TSD share common roots from what I understand, there is going to be a commonality in technique. They both used the original forms from O/J Karate in their infancy, too. One remained a traditional art, and the other became mostly an olympic sport with traditional elements. Now the latter is slowly recovering its traditional side by and large.


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## terryl965 (May 27, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> If only there were more people like you in the KMA, and if only there were more schools like yours around in general. The problems these days is that students, people in general, are waaay tooo lazyyy! It is reflected throughout society at large, too. TKD and TSD share common roots from what I understand, there is going to be a commonality in technique. They both used the original forms from O/J Karate in their infancy, too. One remained a traditional art, and the other became mostly an olympic sport with traditional elements. Now the latter is slowly recovering its traditional side by and large.


 

This is soo true.


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## exile (May 27, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> T
> 
> In my Dojang, we have the OLD method. It is very hard, traditional and authentic.
> But, the problem is the people, *they are lazy*. The majority of students don't like hard training. They think a martial artist can be made in a single week, like a Holywood movie.... We discussed this many times when we closed a dojang. We were faced with the decision of going soft and have many students, or continue the same way and have few.
> ...



There is nothing, nothing at all, that does not become diluted and 'grade-inflated' when it reaches a certain degree of poplular interest. A lot of people who were previously happy to make a very modest living, or teach their skill purely as a labor of love, start seeing dollars signs. They get the message from our promo-crazed commercial culture that they're being stupid if they don't try to cash in on the boom. It's happened to everything I've ever done that was a special, personal quest at one time and became a mass trend later on. Grade inflation isn't something that happens just at univiersities.

The comparison with college education is informative, though, because you see many of the same attitudes there and in MA trainingespecially the attitude that education, knowledge and _credentials_ are a commodity, and therefore you, the teacher, have no right to deny students a passing, or even a high grade, as long as they've paid their tuition. I'm here, I'm paying, you _owe_ me a degree. Try to find one university instructor who hasn't heard that line at least once or twice in his or her careeryou'll have a long, long wait before you turn one up! It's exactly the same syndrome as with the belt mills: I'm paying you for this credential, and I expect my dan ranking no later than two years after I signed my first contract, not a minute more! 

The difference is that in the university, you can look them coldly in the eye and tell them, 'I don't know who you think you'r talking to, but you get the grade you've earned, and you haven't earned an A. Or a B. Don't like it? Sue the university.' And the university backs its instructors up on this point. But with commercially oriented MA schools, that's a luxury that they can't afford. You guys have the right idea... but you have to face it: you're a relic of an earlier age, a genuine Kwan.

My hope is, one day that's going to be the way it is _again_.


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## Montecarlodrag (May 29, 2008)

exile said:


> You guys have the right idea... but you have to face it: you're a relic of an earlier age, a genuine Kwan.
> 
> My hope is, one day that's going to be the way it is _again_.


 
Yes, you are right. We are only 3 remaining, we were many, but we always lose people. Many BB left, many students also leave to easier styles (to receive higher ranks). Too sad.

But I'd hate the idea of letting the authentic MA die.

I have given MA instruction on private Schools or gyms where you HAVE to give degrees to students, just because the owner wants the customers to be happy. But in your Dojang you can make a difference.

Many people don't believe us when we say how we train.
The ones who saw us training, with no shoes at morning on the snow, they called us crazy and archaic.
I don't think we are archaic or crazy. I don't remember a gup student being injured or sick because this training. Not even a flu.

When I was younger, I was used to catch a cold at least twice a year. After I started training TSD with this hard method, I forgot what a cold is. Im healtier than when I was 15. 

I hope the true MA won't die.

Regards.


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## YoungMan (May 29, 2008)

Keep in mind, there is a difference between hard training and foolish. To me, hard training means doing forms until your muscles ache, basic kicking until your legs can barely move, and pounding the sandbag.
Foolish training is trainng without shoes in subzero temperatures. That is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Keep in mind, the health and safety of the students must be number one, and any instructor who insists that dangerous=traditional is treading a slippery slope.


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## MBuzzy (May 29, 2008)

While I whole haeartedly agree that people in general are lazy, most training is too easy, ranks are inflated, etc (the standard complaints that any serious Martial Artist has); I also must agree with Youngman here.  Something that I ask (internally) of just about everything we do in a class is:  What is the value added here?  

Historically, making your students as physically tough as humanly possible including all kind of physical and mental abuse and torture was not only necessary, but it was accepted - both legally and within society.  Today, in the US, it is not.  There are things that you can get away with, but let's be realistic, if you are having your students spar on rocks with no pads...eventually that will catch up with you in the form of a lawsuit - and you have to ask yourself, does it help?  There is value to taking a hit and learning to take a hit and making yourself tough, but to me, there is a line.  

There is something I'm wondering here, maybe we have just strayed off topic, but is there some perception that there is a "difficulty" and toughness difference between TKD and TSD?  Most of the harsh training comments seem to be directed at TSD training, but I can tell you that TODAY that training is going on FOR REAL in TKD in the Korean Army.  I think that every style had some historical basis of harsh and hard training.


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## terryl965 (May 29, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> Yes, you are right. We are only 3 remaining, we were many, but we always lose people. Many BB left, many students also leave to easier styles (to receive higher ranks). Too sad.
> 
> But I'd hate the idea of letting the authentic MA die.
> 
> ...


 
I know the feeling I loose people all the time to these so call belt factories. It is a crying shame.


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## SageGhost83 (May 29, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> When I was younger, I was used to catch a cold at least twice a year. After I started training TSD with this hard method, I forgot what a cold is. Im healtier than when I was 15.
> 
> I hope the true MA won't die.
> 
> Regards.


 
Oh man, you too!? I used to catch a cold every year, now I can count the number of times on one hand that I have been under the weather in the last five years combined! I hope that the true MA won't die, either. We can take solace in the fact that there will always be somebody preserving the real thing even though the function in obscurity.


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## Montecarlodrag (May 31, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Keep in mind, there is a difference between hard training and foolish. To me, hard training means doing forms until your muscles ache, basic kicking until your legs can barely move, and pounding the sandbag.
> Foolish training is trainng without shoes in subzero temperatures. That is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Keep in mind, the health and safety of the students must be number one, and any instructor who insists that dangerous=traditional is treading a slippery slope.


Your definition of hard training and mine are very different, but *I respect your opinion*. 
For me hard training is like I described above, and punch or kick wood till you bleed (and you are almost crying ), or sparring till you are almost knocked out. 99% of people will never withstand this.

Fortunately, we don't have to worry about lawsuits here in Mexico. If a student does not want to, we don't force him and he's free to leave anytime.

So this is only for Black belts and students who ask us to receive this training. Anybody who feels he/she is in danger is free to quit. We don't enforce anything, and we don't allow anybody to train like us untill we see he/she is capable of doing it.
-Many ask, but they are not capable
-A few are accepted, but won't return after first class 

As I said, it is beautiful when somebody watches you doing hyungs on snow barefooted, and think you are going to die of pneumonia, but on the contrary, you are making yourself stonger.

I promise to upload a picture of myself doing that. It's cool.


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## terryl965 (Jun 1, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> Your definition of hard training and mine are very different, but *I respect your opinion*.
> For me hard training is like I described above, and punch or kick wood till you bleed (and you are almost crying ), or sparring till you are almost knocked out. 99% of people will never withstand this.
> 
> Fortunately, we don't have to worry about lawsuits here in Mexico. If a student does not want to, we don't force him and he's free to leave anytime.
> ...


 
Everybody does what they consider hard training and if you are kicking wood until you bleed than that is, I can remember being over sea and doing some of this exact things that you mention.


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## DMcHenry (Dec 29, 2010)

I know this is a very old thread but I do have an update.  I finally thought to try contacting GM Kim Pyung-Soo again (GM Kim Soo) and he responded, twice.

I was trying to discover exactly what my TKD liniage was, and GM Kim Soo did let me know that the style of TKD I first began in that was extremly close to what I still do in TSD was Chang Moo KWan TKD under his elder brother, Master Kim Chang-Soo.  Master Kim didn't begin training unitl after he left the Korean Marines where he was a Captain and Grandmaster Kim Soo was already a 2nd Dan in TKD.

GM Kim Soo did remember me training with him (amazing as it was about 30 years ago) while I was attending the University of Houston.  He accepted me as a black belt because what I did was so similar to what he was teaching and I had trained under his brother.  He remembered my dobak as it had the KimUk's Dojang logo on it.  Not sure why Master Kim Chang-Soo went by "Kimuk Soo".  I remember having the old "Kim-Soo Karate" black bumper sticker on my '67 Camaro.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 29, 2010)

DMcHenry said:


> I know this is a very old thread but I do have an update.  I finally thought to try contacting GM Kim Pyung-Soo again (GM Kim Soo) and he responded, twice.
> I was trying to discover exactly what my TKD liniage was, and GM Kim Soo did let me know that the style of TKD I first began in that was extremly close to what I still do in TSD was Chang Moo KWan TKD under his elder brother, Master Kim Chang-Soo.  Master Kim didn't begin training unitl after he left the Korean Marines where he was a Captain and Grandmaster Kim Soo was already a 2nd Dan in TKD.
> GM Kim Soo did remember me training with him (amazing as it was about 30 years ago) while I was attending the University of Houston.  He accepted me as a black belt because what I did was so similar to what he was teaching and I had trained under his brother.  He remembered my dobak as it had the KimUk's Dojang logo on it.  Not sure why Master Kim Chang-Soo went by "Kimuk Soo".  I remember having the old "Kim-Soo Karate" black bumper sticker on my '67 Camaro.


Great story & thank you for the update.
Did you email him& was that how he responded?


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## DMcHenry (Dec 29, 2010)

he's my "friend" on Facebook, which is what got me to think of sending him a private message (basically an email) and he responded fairly quickly.  I had sent emails some years ago but didn't get a response.


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## smhall89 (Feb 4, 2011)

It's just really as you stated. They are very closely related. They have the same principles, hand and foot techniques and even self defense teachings. The big difference is the fact TKD is seen as more of a modern art (meaning sport-like) where TSD sticks to the traditional roots that it is formed from. Personally I prefer TSD just for the fact it is more traditional.


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## 195 (Feb 7, 2011)

Actually theyre pretty different. Both stemmed off of the ancient art of tae kyun which has been around since around 57 BC. Tae kyun became soo bahk and eventually soo bahk do.  Tae kwon do and tang soo do both are heavily influenced by soo bahk do and can be seen as modern versions of it. Tradtitional tae kwon do did employ hand techniques but when the government united the korean arts in 1960 tae kwon do became more of a sport than the traditional self defense style it was originally. This lead to the virtual exclusion of hand techniques in sport tae kwon do. Tang soo do on the other hand literally translates as "Ancient china hand way" and has many more hand techniques than tae kwon do. This is in part due to the fact that it is a fusion between shaolin gung fu (hence the form so rim jang kwan...so rim literally means shaolin), soo bahk do (hence the thirteen principles of the sam sip seh and the moo yei do bo tong ji), and japanese/okinawan shotokan karate (hence the pyung ahns and naihanjis). Both are usually taught together to get a good balance. You learn the hand techniques from tang soo do and the more sophisticated kicking techniques from tae kwon do.


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## 195 (Feb 7, 2011)

If you want more info and  dates of events on all of this just let me know.


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