# Joe Palanzo, Rank, and Other Kenpo Gossip



## Mikael151 (Jun 16, 2007)

bgore1966 said:


> He had intestinal fortitude ... just ask someone who was around during his conversation with the widow Parker at the SGM's Funeral. Joe was a brave man then and he is a brave man now.keep on banging away Joe.


   You mean AT the funeral?


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## IWishToLearn (Jun 17, 2007)

In searching old MT posts I found a reference to the aforementioned conversation having something to do with Joe Palanzo and Mrs. Parker and Joe's 8th Degree.


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## hongkongfooey (Jun 17, 2007)

IWishToLearn said:


> In searching old MT posts I found a reference to the aforementioned conversation having something to do with Joe Palanzo and Mrs. Parker and Joe's 8th Degree.


 
Dude, you'll probably get flamed for that one. From what I understand, there were a few people that approached Mrs. Parker at the funeral for increases in rank. Today, that wouldn't be necessary. People can just buy their rank belts and certificates online and become an instant Grand Master. 

http://http://kenpobelts.com/catalog/index.php?osCsid=22963a27e46c371cb7ef2e4507c4c24a


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## Mikael151 (Jun 17, 2007)

Asking for rank at Mr. Parker's funeral?  I'm guessing someone who didn't like him made that up.


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## IWishToLearn (Jun 17, 2007)

I was pretty shocked when I saw the allusions - so I searched for Rank Parker funeral. Interesting results. Dunno what I would be flamed for - all I did was post that I had found a hit in a search. For the record - Joe Palanzo's 8th Degree came under the auspices of the WKKA. Not the IKKA.


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## kenpo3631 (Jun 17, 2007)

Mikael151 said:


> Asking for rank at Mr. Parker's funeral? I'm guessing someone who didn't like him made that up.


 

I have from reliable source that it is true.....


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## MJS (Jun 18, 2007)

Folks, I'm starting this new thread and splitting some things off from the film footage of Joe Palanzo.  Any rank or funeral related issues can be discussed here.

Mike


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## LawDog (Jun 18, 2007)

Way back I did hear the many rumors of this happening but then, as now, most of us looked upon this as just that, a rumor. I do not believe that Joe P. would stoop low enough to do this sort of thing. Hang the rumor spreader.
:whip:


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## Seabrook (Jun 18, 2007)

I have heard that rumor a zillion times over.

Here is a question.

Why bring up something that may or may not have happened in someone else's life 17 YEARS AGO? 

The past is the past, and I am sure that all of us (me included) would feel like hiding under our beds if any parts of our life got publically exposed. 

Let's move on. 

Joe Palanzo has done a truckload for the art of American Kenpo, bottom line.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 18, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> I have heard that rumor a zillion times over.
> 
> Here is a question.
> 
> ...


 
Bingo.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 18, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> I have heard that rumor a zillion times over.
> 
> Here is a question.
> 
> ...


 
Ta-Da!

We all have crap in our sewers; skeletons in our closets; whatever. Let buried dogs lay, I say. Replace this with, "What have you done for kenpo today?" Accomplishes two things: Forward, growth oriented focus, and keeps it about you...not the next guy over.

D.


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## IWishToLearn (Jun 18, 2007)

Apologies if anyone was offended - I didn't ever suspect a reference to older posts would have blown into a new thread. Us young cubs are curious and sometimes we stick our snouts into a porcupine tryin to find out what it is.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 18, 2007)

IWishToLearn said:


> Apologies if anyone was offended - I didn't ever suspect a reference to older posts would have blown into a new thread. Us young cubs are curious and sometimes we stick our snouts into a porcupine tryin to find out what it is.


 
No harm, no foul. 

When Mr. Parker passed, kenpo panicked. There were cries for leadership; cries of "Now I'm the king" from members in the upper echelons; it was chaos. There had been tensions in kenpo well before 12/90, but many ego's and upwardly mobile social climbers were held in check by Mr. Parkers ... um... gregarious iron hand in a velvet glove?

There were about a dozen well-positioned leaders.. kenpo elders...when Mr. P. left us. Some made immediate leaps for the throne, some waited a little longer, and some still leave the throne for others, while just leading by living excellent examples. There was lots of jockeying for position. I wish I could say I was sin-free/high-road/smelling like a rose all the way, but I can't: I approached one of the 7ths with a plan for creating a catch-all org to snap up orphans that were being created on a daily basis as new assn's were being born and dying. He very kindly and mildly put me in my place, and mentioned that there was already some dialogue going on among the seniors about how to address such issues; to be patient. I never brought it up again, realizing I had been boorish and ridiculous; tacky and out of turn (hey...we all gotta be good at something).

When this was all fresh, any one mans actions around reaching for the top were notable and newsworthy...it was new, and we were all watching to see what would happen next. Not so new now. We have guys out there who weren't even black belts yet that out-rank where the seniors were in '90. We got guys wearing kenpo 10ths who couldn't hold a candle to some 4ths and 5ths of yesteryear. and so many competing organizations it ain't even funny. "Too much red in kenpo", is the saying that stays in mind.

I've stopped looking at belt ranks, and started looking at leadership of the individuals. The men I respect most in kenpo are those who show us what it looks like to do it/live it well. Seniors and semi-seniors who can enlighten both technically, and by example of their living a life well lived. Ron Chap'el is one of the kindest men you might chance to meet, and an amazing resource on technical kenpo who shows us what it looks like to hold yourself and your people to a higher standard of uncompromising excellence. Bob White has continued to provide quality leadership through example in his school and community, turning out champions and helping youth all along the way. Steve LaBounty has wrapped his arms around as much of the kenpo world as will have him, focusing on inclusion rather than exclusion, and giving of himself for the furtherance of our collective kenpo legacy. Men like Dennis Conatser and Rich Hale continue to live their commitments by producing top-quality students and top-quality materials, while welcoming inquiries from those who wish to learn.

As with any field of endeavor, we walk among both small men and giants. I am, too often, small. I've stuck my own nose in a lot of porcupines, and even created a few along the way that weren't really necessary. And I'm probably not done yet, I'm sure. What I can try to do is spend more time nosing around for the golden nuggets of kenpo wisdom still out there to be found. It might be a little "kumbayah" for some, but I think -- in the long run -- it will contribute more to my own "life well lived" in retrospect from some distant point.

Regards,

D.


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## Tames D (Jun 18, 2007)

Good post.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 18, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> I have heard that rumor a zillion times over.
> 
> Here is a question.
> 
> ...


Although it did happen just the way it has been described. You could have filled a stadium with a number of people that did the same thing. It was a bad time.
Sean


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## Ceicei (Jun 18, 2007)

D,

Very good post!  Tried to rep you for that but I apparently need to do more kumbayah-ing first...

- Ceicei


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## Seabrook (Jun 19, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Although it did happen just the way it has been described. You could have filled a stadium with a number of people that did the same thing. It was a bad time.
> Sean


 
I know what you are saying Sean, but it was still 17 YEARS AGO!

Next.....


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## kidswarrior (Jun 19, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> I have heard that rumor a zillion times over.
> 
> Here is a question.
> 
> ...



Well said! :asian:


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## kidswarrior (Jun 19, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Ta-Da!
> 
> We all have crap in our sewers; skeletons in our closets; whatever. Let buried dogs lay, I say. Replace this with, "What have you done for kenpo today?" Accomplishes two things: Forward, growth oriented focus, and keeps it about you...not the next guy over.
> 
> D.


To an old AA burnout (me--but a sober one:ultracool), this post really pops and sizzles. There's a lifetime of work just taking care of my own shortcomings without going looking for those of others.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 19, 2007)

To my AA Brother with 18 months (who wishes to remain anonymous--or just forgot to leave name ), congrats on the 18 month birthday, and thanks for the rep! 

Now, we'll give the semi-hijacked thread back.


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## Carol (Jun 19, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> To my AA Brother with 18 months (who wishes to remain anonymous--or just forgot to leave name ), congrats on the 18 month birthday, and thanks for the rep!
> 
> Now, we'll give the semi-hijacked thread back.



Congrats to both of you for that.  No easy task.

SGM Parker died suddenly.  Yes, he had a premonition that he was going to pass away, hence is writing of Infinite Insights but that doesn't really take away from the fact that he passed away quickly and unexpectedly.

Emotions run very very high at funerals.  For awhile, my mother accused me of not attending my dad's funeral.  Not only was I there, I sang at it.

Sometimes reality gets distorted. Sometimes people say things they regret.  Losing someone you care about never gets easy.

For as awesome as Mr. Parker's senior students are, they are human. 

Mr. Palanzo has continued his Kenpo career without dwelling upon what was or wasn't said 17 years ago.  Perhaps we shouldn't either.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 19, 2007)

Word.


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## parkerkarate (Jun 19, 2007)

Just thought I would put an end to this one before it would go off track.

http://www.wkka.org/articles_02.html


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 20, 2007)

parkerkarate said:


> Just thought I would put an end to this one before it would go off track.
> 
> http://www.wkka.org/articles_02.html


 
Just when the subject almost died, you had to follow the dictums of ego and put fuel on the fire. The link you posted would constitute -- in a court of law -- "hearsay", and be inadmissable as evidence. There were 8ths already out there, signed by Mr.P with wet sigs. There were people, with witnesses, privvy to entirely different conversations with Mr. P. regarding promotions. There are many who claimed promotions, and claimed witnesses, only to find out later that the "witnesses" didn't know what the heck the claimant was talking about. 

The successorship claims are ridiculous, and better left DEAD! "Perceptual acuity" would have shown the idea had petered out. Shoulda left it that way.

Mr. Palanzo's rhetoric is just that; his rhetoric. Let. the. dead. dog. sleep. The rest of us are trying to.

Dave


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 20, 2007)

parkerkarate said:


> Just thought I would put an end to this one before it would go off track.
> 
> http://www.wkka.org/articles_02.html


 

The "successor" claim is the most laughable topic ever. I've heard so much on this topic it gets a little tired at times.

--Tatum is the successor because he was the "key" protege
--Palanzo and Tom Kelly are the successor's because they were proteges and Tatum and Parker had a fall out
--Huk Planas is the successor because he helped develop much of the system along with Mr. Parker and Mr. Tom Kelly.
--Frank Trejo is the successor because he excelled at forms and fighting
--Mr. Trejo can't be the successor because he was Mr. Planas' brown belt along with Mr. Tatum at one point.
--"Huk" can't be the successor because he was predated and taught by Mr. Labounty
--Mr. Mills is the successor because he was Mr. Parker's "secret weapon" the "smiling guillotine" during those frequent trips to Wyoming
--Mr. Mills can't be the successor because he is doing his own system
--Doc is the successor because he has been around the "longest"
--Doc can't be the successor because he is doing his own thing
--Ed Parker, Jr. is the successor because he is Mr. Parker's son
--Ed Parker, Jr. can't be the successor because he isn't a black belt
--Ed Parker, Jr. is now a black belt
--Ed Parker, Jr. is a black belt now but isn't "senior" enough
-- Mike Pick is the successor because Mr. Parker promoted him with his own belt.
--Mr. Pick can't be the successor because he wasn't even the most senior or highest ranked when Mr. Parker died
--Jim Mitchell is the successor because he was chosen to video tape the entire system for Mr. Parker.
--Jim Mitchell can't be the successor for the same reason as Mr. Pick
--The successor has to be doing Kenpo EXACTLY as Mr. Parker left it
--Mr. Pick is doing his own thing as are Doc and Mr. Mills so they are out.
--Mr. Labounty is doing his own thing.
--Mr. Palanzo and Mr. Kelly just revised how they are delivering the system
--Mr. Planas is teaching "old" kenpo one minute and then the next minute is adding filipino influences (which is it? can't be both). So his kenpo is either too old or too new to be the successor.
--Ed Parker, Jr. is content to be a part of the Kenpo Community as a WHOLE
--Mr. Conatser is the successor because Doc says he knows the written material better than anyone
--Mr. Conatser can't be it based on Doc's vote because there is no "proof" Doc trained with Mr. Parker.
--Pictures in infinite "insights" and video in "sophisticated basics" doesn't count
--Chuck Sullivan can't be the successor for the afore-mentioned, changed the system rule.
--How come Mr. Bob White's name never comes up? He was a 7th as well during the time of Mr. Parker's passing.
--Mr. Pick developed the Kenpo Knife material with Mr. Parker along with Forms 9 and 10.
--That can't be entirely true because Mr. Parker developed the knife material with Mr. Mills
--Both are irrelevant as the knife material was not in infinite insights and therefore never existed.
--therefore neither did Sub-Level 4
--If it wasn't in Infinite Insights it's not valid so any one doing "new" takes on kenpo or system modifications are not valid as successors.
--Therefore no SL-4, 16 tech system, Kenpo Knifes, Karambits, etc. count.
--Therefore everyone who was a 7th at the time of Mr. Parker's passing (and the one's who weren't) are discounted.
--Conclusion: All Seniors are invalidated for multiple reasons. *No successor available....until someone else (or the same usual suspects again) decides that whoever they are under THIS YEAR is NOW the successor. And the cycle repeats itself.*

I guess the cycle is repeating itself again....sigh.


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## parkerkarate (Jun 20, 2007)

Wow thanks for trying to tell me what is what. But I have it from the man himself and I will just leave it at that.


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## thetruth (Jun 21, 2007)

parkerkarate said:


> Wow thanks for trying to tell me what is what. But I have it from the man himself and I will just leave it at that.



I'm not convinced you have it from the man as it is an article on Joe Palanzo's web site and to me that seems it could be a touch biased.  I studied American Kenpo for about 3 years and the amount of politics throughout the art far surpasses any I have witnessed anywhere else.  I say if you are happy with your instructor and his side of the story stay with him; if not move on.  Seventeen years is a long time.  I have heard a lot of stuff about a lot of American Kenpo seniors yet their organisations are still as strong as ever so I guess they are doing something right.  There was no named successor, that seems to be a fact.  Even if there was I think there would still be politics. Look at Kyokushin, Mas Oyama left a successor and still the art splintered and I guarentee the American(western) ego is far more fragile than that of the Japanese.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 21, 2007)

thetruth said:


> I'm not convinced you have it from the man as it is an article on Joe Palanzo's web site and to me that seems it could be a touch biased. I studied American Kenpo for about 3 years and the amount of politics throughout the art far surpasses any I have witnessed anywhere else. I say if you are happy with your instructor and his side of the story stay with him; if not move on. Seventeen years is a long time. I have heard a lot of stuff about a lot of American Kenpo seniors yet their organisations are still as strong as ever so I guess they are doing something right. There was no named successor, that seems to be a fact. Even if there was I think there would still be politics. Look at Kyokushin, Mas Oyama left a successor and still the art splintered and I guarentee the American(western) ego is far more fragile than that of the Japanese.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
I'll give you a positive rep for that post, but you might as well save your breath.  That's one of Mr. Palanzo's devoted followers you're preaching to who believes every utterance he hears in favor of Mr. Palanzo and denounces anything that may show Mr. Palanzo in any negative light (except his own complaints, those are fine).  It hasn't crossed his mind yet that to hear it from "the man" it would have to be hearing from Mr. Parker's lips.  But let's not drag the Parker family into this, let it die for godsakes.  Let's leave our egos and agendas at the door and think for ourselves instead of beleiving everything we are told blindly.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 21, 2007)

thetruth said:


> I'm not convinced you have it from the man as it is an article on Joe Palanzo's web site and to me that seems it could be a touch biased. I studied American Kenpo for about 3 years and the amount of politics throughout the art far surpasses any I have witnessed anywhere else. I say if you are happy with your instructor and his side of the story stay with him; if not move on. Seventeen years is a long time. I have heard a lot of stuff about a lot of American Kenpo seniors yet their organisations are still as strong as ever so I guess they are doing something right. There was no named successor, that seems to be a fact. Even if there was I think there would still be politics. Look at Kyokushin, Mas Oyama left a successor and still the art splintered and I guarentee the American(western) ego is far more fragile than that of the Japanese.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


With the scuicide rates for faliure, I beg to differ.
Sean


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 21, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> With the scuicide rates for faliure, I beg to differ.
> Sean


 
Lost me.  Is this referencing the last sentence of the preceding post?  If so I, get it.  If not, I'm lost.


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## IWishToLearn (Jun 21, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> With the scuicide rates for faliure, I beg to differ.
> Sean



Hehe

*JOKING TONE OF VOICE ON*

Maybe he's referring to the amount of people who try to commit suicide and fail. Kinda like taking a skittles instead of a cyanide pill maybe? 

*joke off*


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## Carol (Jun 21, 2007)

I think I get it.

Sam/TheTruth posits that the American ego is more fragile than the Japanese ego.

Sean/Touch of Death disagrees, stating the high Japanese suicide rate and describing how the trigger for many of these suicides is failure at a task.


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## hongkongfooey (Jun 21, 2007)

parkerkarate said:


> Just thought I would put an end to this one before it would go off track.
> 
> http://www.wkka.org/articles_02.html


 


LOL! That article should begin with "once upon a time"


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## MJS (Jun 21, 2007)

_ATTENTION ALL USERS:

_Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Asst. Admin-


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## thetruth (Jun 22, 2007)

Given American Kenpo is American (what a revelation) I used the term American ego.  I did have western in brackets though.  I'm not sure how the suicide rate in Japan is related to what I said.  I don't believe that there would be too many Japanese who suicided cos their ego was bruised.  I think their views on honour, pride and shame within their society is a little deeper than that.   

I don't mean to make assumptions but I think it would be safe to say that there wouldn't be another art on the planet that splintered they way American Kenpo did after the founder died. I also haven't heard as many rumours about those within an art than I have about American Kenpo. I honestly don't believe that Mr Parker gave anyone the title, nor had he discussed it in any great detail with anyone.  

I think it would be silly to keep arguing about who should have taken over.  Even if somewhere in Mr Parkers belongings there was a piece of paper with the name of who he wanted to take over on it, too much water has passed under the bridge to rectify the art that was and unify everyone anyway.

If you like the kenpo you learn great, enjoy it, embrace it and try the best you can to avoid the external politics outside of your particular organisation. 

And Hongkongfooey, that once upon a time crack was quite amusing

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 22, 2007)

hongkongfooey said:


> LOL! That article should begin with "once upon a time"


 
Priceless, either that or In the best Dr. King, Jr. voice....."I had a dream!!!!....."


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 22, 2007)

thetruth said:


> Given American Kenpo is American (what a revelation) I used the term American ego. I did have western in brackets though. I'm not sure how the suicide rate in Japan is related to what I said. I don't believe that there would be too many Japanese who suicided cos their ego was bruised. I think their views on honour, pride and shame within their society is a little deeper than that.
> 
> I don't mean to make assumptions but I think it would be safe to say that there wouldn't be another art on the planet that splintered they way American Kenpo did after the founder died. I also haven't heard as many rumours about those within an art than I have about American Kenpo. I honestly don't believe that Mr Parker gave anyone the title, nor had he discussed it in any great detail with anyone.
> 
> ...


 
Couldn't rep ya again so I'll just post.  Good Stuff and as I stole from Dave and Robert "Ayup"


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## Lisa (Jun 22, 2007)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

*Second and Final Moderator Warning:*

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful and return to the original topic of the thread.

Thank you.

Lisa Deneka
MT Assist. Admin


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 22, 2007)

OK, I'll rephrase it in a 'better' way.  On the issue of Mr. Palanzo, the rank, the gossip etc. all the "facts" presented have been hearsay and need to be left in that realm and dropped.  The article presented is (to put it mildly) the personal account of the very person in question that is only verifiable by said individual and other members of his camp (in fact the article was presented by someone not only from the same camp but under his employ as well.).  In short, it lacks any absolute or verifiable credibility and substance.  Laymen's terms "He said, she said."  The sad part is that the person in question is not the only person in the Kenpo world with that same story (albeit with minor differences).  Both stories (I was the next in line to be promoted) cannot be true at the same time so who (if anyone) is telling the truth?  No actual facts have been presented in all this time so it's all moot anyway....it's been 17 years.  If we haven't figured out yet that Black belt ranks don't go 1,2,3,4,10 or 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10 by now we aren't going to figure out the rest either.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 22, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Lost me. Is this referencing the last sentence of the preceding post? If so I, get it. If not, I'm lost.


If you skip to the coclusion like I always do this sentence can make sense.
Sean


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## Mikael151 (Jul 14, 2007)

For the record, I had nothing to do with starting or giving a title to this thread.  The credit belongs to the mod who moved it here.


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## James Kovacich (Jul 16, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> -- Mike Pick is the successor because Mr. Parker promoted him with his own belt.
> .


I'm not stating anything about this situation which I'm not involved with but that instance if the belt was given and kept (not given back after the ceremony) then it "could" be a sign that the Grandmaster wishes him to take over "or" at least be a leader.

P.S. I googled, yahooed and dogpiled that "same" so-called initial search and nothing about Mr. Polanzo or anybody else came up seeking rank.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 17, 2007)

akja said:


> *I'm not stating anything about this situation which I'm not involved with but that instance if the belt was given and kept (not given back after the ceremony) then it "could" be a sign that the Grandmaster wishes him to take over "or" at least be a leader.*
> 
> P.S. I googled, yahooed and dogpiled that "same" so-called initial search and nothing about Mr. Polanzo or anybody else came up seeking rank.


 
*Instead of grasping for straws it'd be easier to put things in a more understood format.  For instance, promote the person to your highest rank beneath you (which was not the case here). Or openly call the person your protege (again not the case the here).  Reaching for symbolizm of what "could" be implied is just that....reaching.*

Lost me here, can you clarify exactly what you are saying?


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## James Kovacich (Jul 17, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> *Instead of grasping for straws it'd be easier to put things in a more understood format. For instance, promote the person to your highest rank beneath you (which was not the case here). Or openly call the person your protege (again not the case the here). Reaching for symbolizm of what "could" be implied is just that....reaching.*
> 
> Lost me here, can you clarify exactly what you are saying?


 
I wasn't reaching for anything except that the initial poster of this thread "stated" what they searched out and duplicated their search and found that what "they said" they found was not there, implying they had an agenda from the start.

As for the belt/ceremony part. I know of an instance close to me where that situation did happen.

Did I answer what you seek?


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## Seabrook (Jul 17, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> *Instead of grasping for straws it'd be easier to put things in a more understood format. For instance, promote the person to your highest rank beneath you (which was not the case here). Or openly call the person your protege (again not the case the here). Reaching for symbolizm of what "could" be implied is just that....reaching.*
> 
> Lost me here, can you clarify exactly what you are saying?


 
Agreed.


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## James Kovacich (Jul 17, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Agreed.


Who is grasping for straws? Did you read my last post?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 17, 2007)

akja said:


> I wasn't reaching for anything except that the initial poster of this thread "stated" what they searched out and duplicated their search and found that what "they said" they found was not there, implying they had an agenda from the start.
> 
> As for the belt/ceremony part. I know of an instance close to me where that situation did happen.
> 
> Did I answer what you seek?


 
To clarify I was not stating or implying you were reaching or grasping for straws.  I was stating that the original perpetrators of said myth were.  In short your statement has *alot* of history to it that you may not be aware of and has been repeated ad nauseum by folks with the "agendas".  My apologies for the confusion.


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## James Kovacich (Jul 17, 2007)

James, Thanks for the clarification and makes better sense. 

Jamie, If I wasn't on the same page as James, I probably was not with you either.

Sorry for the confusion to both of you.
Take care, James


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