# Baguazhang Practitioners?



## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

I've been interested in baguazhang ever since seeing the film 'The Grandmaster'. I also have the book 'The Whirling Circles of Baguazhang' - a great resource on the subject that has helped me to learn circle walking on my own (there are no teachers in my area). Circle walking alone has added a new dimension to my martial arts practice. Baguazhang seems mostly unknown to many. I myself was late in discovering it, but am now fascinated by its unique approach and its use of spiral energy. I'd be really interested to hear anything whatsoever about the practice and applications of this amazing martial art from any teachers or practitioners here at MartialTalk.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 28, 2017)

Do you think Bagua is a striking art, or a throwing art?


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## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you think Bagua is a striking art, or a throwing art?



Actually, in my limited experience and practice of it - neither. It does use joint locks, strikes and takedowns, but its main power seems to be in the footwork, and the evasiveness that provides. A master of the art as an opponent seems very hard to locate and his or her attacks, difficult to anticipate. The fight scene between Ziyi Zhang and Tony Leung in The Grandmaster, while manipulated to some degree, definitely captures the idea and the possibilities of it as a fighting art. (Ziyi is using bagua, Tony is using wing chun) Again, I'm no master - but even just from circle walking for the last year in my own practice, it's helped me branch out a bit from the predictable linear stepping I've used as defense since first learning martial arts as a Karate student.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 28, 2017)

- What's the purpose of "circle walking"?
- Do you intend to use your circle walking to move in for striking, or do you intend to use your circle walking to move in for throwing?
- Do you intend to move into your opponent's "side door (blind side)", or do you intend to move in between your opponent's "front door (between his arms)"?
- When you are doing your "circle walking", do you move your front leg first, or do you move your back leg first?


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## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - What's the purpose of "circle walking"?
> - Do you intend to use your circle walking to move in for striking, or do you intend to use your circle walking to move in for throwing?
> - Do you intend to move into your opponent's "side door (blind side)", or do you intend to move in between your opponent's "front door (between his arms)"?
> - When you are doing your "circle walking", do you move your front leg first, or do you move your back leg first?



I'm no authority but working hard to understand the art. Circle walking began as taoist moving meditation and an 18th century Chinese martial artist named Dong Hai Chuan created a martial art with it.
Here's an example from youtube - 



Looks like nothing, right? Honestly, it won't help understand it to watch someone do it - but when you practice it, several things are taught - you're always walking with a kind of sliding step, circling with a focus on the center of the circle, your upper body is twisted inwards, then you reverse - this reverse is part of the power - over time it builds the core and the circling teaches independence between the upper body and lower body. If like me, you're used to that linear forward and back from Karate or boxing, it opens another way. You asked about applications - I've seen masters use it to move in for striking, with arm techniques and also takedowns and making use of angles against and opponent - as you put it - to 'move into the opponent's side door'. When practicing circle walking, the inner foot moves straight ahead while the outer curves inward with each step in order to walk the circle - then direction is reversed. Like yoga or chi kung - talking about it or watching another do it cannot convey its value - you have to do it. I've had beginners pick it up and 'get it' very quickly - it's fun, but also very powerful when practiced over time.
Again, I'm new to it, but having discovered it, will never abandon it - it's taught me a new approach to footwork and its circling and spiraling energy keeps a flow going in your movements. Dig into the baguazhang videos on youtube - then try it for yourself, you may find something of value you can use - I did.


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## oaktree (Mar 28, 2017)

Hi Ben the videos of the two woman are wushu which is competition and flashy and really has no actual martial application.

To answer Wang question.
Cheng style has more of a throwing shuai jiao 摔跤。 yin style is known more for striking 打击。 this is primarily because of their background arts. Dong haichuan most likely focused on single and double palm change, circle walking and concepts .
My teacher said when I asked what each palm is for he said the palm can be used for strike, joint lock, throw.


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## oaktree (Mar 28, 2017)

The sliding step is one type of circle walking it is more of a gao and Cheng style. It's not to practical on certain terrains. I have seen some more extreme slide steps especially from wushu people if you step like that it's easy for your opponent to trip your leg .


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## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Hi Ben the videos of the two woman are wushu which is competition and flashy and really has no actual martial application.
> 
> To answer Wang question.
> Cheng style has more of a throwing shuai jiao 摔跤。 yin style is known more for striking 打击。 this is primarily because of their background arts. Dong haichuan most likely focused on single and double palm change, circle walking and concepts .
> My teacher said when I asked what each palm is for he said the palm can be used for strike, joint lock, throw.



oaktree - Thanks for the extra insight. I've seen many videos showing effective application of baguazhang techniques in fighting situations. I agree that the two women I mentioned are essentially doing wushu, but I'm someone who feels that everything comes from practice - and though wushu is for show, the mastery of body energy and mechanics that it takes is more useful to me as a practitioner since I usually practice solo and rarely fight or even spar anymore. There's always that consideration of whether or not the art's fighting techniques really work - it's completely valid, but I practiced zen martial arts for so long that my own focus is more about self-realization and learning to understand and manage the energy and momentum of the body, thus for ME -  baguazhang as wushu is not lessened by having no martial value. Ge Chunyan is very much a master martial artist to me.


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## oaktree (Mar 28, 2017)

They move great no denying it. To really understand Baguazhang is to understand the martial side as well as the health and meditation side.  It is same with taijiquan, understand the martial will help your form, your root, your structure, your fajin.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 28, 2017)

Ben S said:


> my own focus is more about self-realization and learning to understand and manage the energy and momentum of the body, ..


So the reason that you want to learn the Bagua system is more than just for fighting.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 28, 2017)

Ben S said:


> Dig into the baguazhang videos on youtube - then try it for yourself, you may find something of value you can use - I did.


I have trained the Bagua system. But only on the outer 8 palms level. Bagua violates the general guideline "never cross your legs in front of your opponent". We had discussed this concern in this forum many times before.












But if you can walk around your opponent faster than the lighting speed, you can turn your opponent into a new born baby.


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## ST1Doppelganger (Mar 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have trained the Bagua system. But only on the outer 8 palms level. Bagua violates the general guideline "never cross your legs in front of your opponent". We had discussed this concern in this forum many times before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah the cross leg thing can break many martial arts rules but still is good to know how to do. 

Theres also the linear forms of bagua so circle walking is only a portion to most bagua styles. 

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## ST1Doppelganger (Mar 29, 2017)

Ben S said:


> I've been interested in baguazhang ever since seeing the film 'The Grandmaster'. I also have the book 'The Whirling Circles of Baguazhang' - a great resource on the subject that has helped me to learn circle walking on my own (there are no teachers in my area). Circle walking alone has added a new dimension to my martial arts practice. Baguazhang seems mostly unknown to many. I myself was late in discovering it, but am now fascinated by its unique approach and its use of spiral energy. I'd be really interested to hear anything whatsoever about the practice and applications of this amazing martial art from any teachers or practitioners here at MartialTalk.


Since your trying to self teach yourself bagua which is near impossible to do you should consider looking at Tom Bisio bagua DVD's they are some of the best out there that I've seen.  He even has an online course and does seminars. The best thing to do would be to look for a bagua sifu around your location and see if you can start lessons. 

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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 29, 2017)

I have tested the "cross legs" issue many times with my training partner. When my training partner crosses his leg, I can move in straight toward him and run him down almost 20 times in a role. When you cross your leg in front of your opponent, your base is narrow and long. When a 90 degree force runs toward the long side of that narrow base, that long narrow base is difficult to resist against that 90 degree force.

When you stand in front of your opponent, you should try to hide your long side of your base. The Bagua cross legs just "expose the long side of your base" to your opponent.


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## ST1Doppelganger (Mar 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have tested the "cross legs" issue many times with my training partner. When my training partner crosses his leg, I can move in straight toward him and run him down almost 20 times in a role. When you cross your leg in front of your opponent, your base is narrow and long. When a 90 degree force runs toward the long side of that narrow base, that long narrow base is difficult to resist against that 90 degree force.
> 
> When you stand in front of your opponent, you should try to hide your long side of your base. The Bagua cross legs just "expose the long side of your base" to your opponent.


Yes I agree that it's not the best position but I value it as footwork for recovery purposes. Meaning from missed kicks or sweeps that have been deflected or for when you've been thrown or knocked off balance. 

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## Ben S (Mar 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have trained the Bagua system. But only on the outer 8 palms level. Bagua violates the general guideline "never cross your legs in front of your opponent". We had discussed this concern in this forum many times before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Excellent - good point about crossing legs in front of an opponent - never considered that. It's why I love this forum. But you're also right about the speed - if it's there, it can confound an opponent who's used to reacting in a linear way.


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## Ben S (Mar 29, 2017)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> Since your trying to self teach yourself bagua which is near impossible to do you should consider looking at Tom Bisio bagua DVD's they are some of the best out there that I've seen.  He even has an online course and does seminars. The best thing to do would be to look for a bagua sifu around your location and see if you can start lessons.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk



You're right of course about a proper teacher - thanks for the reminder about Tom. I also hope to study with Tina Zhang at some point. Bagua is not the only art I practice, but after circle walking for a year with simple palm changes and what that's done for me, I want to explore how far I can go with it.


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## oaktree (Mar 29, 2017)

Most Baguazhang people do not walk a circle in a fight so taking a static picture of a training exercise to try to fit your definition doesn't help much. But let's look at that "crossing leg" a little deeper, walking a circle teaches how to move off a center line to deal with an attack. The toe in and out used in circle walking are used to trip the opponent, step on the feet as the opponent tries to step in, they are kicks to the knee. As doppelganger said there are linear parts of the system I personally never cared much for it as I have xingyi and other styles to go linear. Tom's DVDs are great his online class are on the liang style which I also practice. I believe he learned from li zi Ming who was most likely zhen pu liang best student. In my opinion liang style is known for its piercing palm as it's signature palm.


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## Ben S (Mar 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> So the reason that you want to learn the Bagua system is more than just for fighting.



Yes, for me personally - my fascination is with energy and using gravity and momentum, which I learned from shim gum do and the 20 forms I practice. For ex - in one form, you rise up as high as possible on one leg - storing potential vertical energy, and then you move fast and far across the floor - horizontal energy. Circle walking is just so foreign to the way we move in normal life. We all tend to walk in a straight line - if you start walking around say a 10 ft diameter circle, your body is constantly turning every millisecond and the body has to learn how to do that - then you reverse, it just adds a new dimension. I've done martial arts for 35 years, but circle walking and chi kung are new to me - there's always so much more to learn and this forum is a great resource to me.


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## Ben S (Mar 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have trained the Bagua system. But only on the outer 8 palms level. Bagua violates the general guideline "never cross your legs in front of your opponent". We had discussed this concern in this forum many times before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for reminding me that I've wanted to be Superman since I was 8 yrs old - lol.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 29, 2017)

Did not have the time to read all this yet, but I will address this. Bagua has striking, kicking, qinna and Shuaijiao and circle walking is used, in application for avoidance and attack from different angles. It was at one time, when trained properly, a great art for fighting multiple opponents due to is circle walking practices which were used to weave in an out, NOT circle the opponent like a shark as some in this thread seem to be suggesting


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 29, 2017)

OK, choosing to ignore what is an old argument here on MT and move on

Take a look at these

Park Bok Nam Bagua Fundamentals Video Re Edited





The Fundamentals of Pa Kua Chang Vol 2/Training Excercises  (Park Bok-Nam)





John Painter
Jiulong Baguazhang Earth Palm





Baguazhang (YMAA Eight Trigrams Palm Kung Fu) Liang, Shou-Yu


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## Flying Crane (Mar 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have trained the Bagua system. But only on the outer 8 palms level. Bagua violates the general guideline "never cross your legs in front of your opponent". We had discussed this concern in this forum many times before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everything within the proper context.

If used appropriately and in proper context and timing, a momentary crossed-leg will not leave you vulnerable.

If used in the wrong timing and wrong context, and lingering in that position instead of it simply being a moment snapshot of movement into something else, well then you are vulnerable.

And if you are in a training situation where you know your partner will make that cross step, you can anticipate and exploit every time.  But that does not mean you could do it in a real fight.

So, like so many things, it depends.


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## clfsean (Mar 29, 2017)

Bagua Zhang == Shuai Da Ti Na ... like all other good TCMA ... mileage will vary depending on the line ...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 29, 2017)

clfsean said:


> Bagua Zhang == Shuai Da Ti Na ...


What kind of punch and kick does the Bagua system have?

1. Punch - jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, hay-maker, ...
2. Kick - front toe kick, front heel kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, back kick, inside crescent kick, outside crescent kick, tornado kick, jumping double front kick, jumping crescent kick, ...

IMO, sometime you want to learn a MA system not because you want to learn the basic tools from that system, but to learn some "special strategy" from that system.


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## oaktree (Mar 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What kind of punch and kick does the Bagua system have?
> 
> 1. Punch - jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, hay-maker, ...
> 2. Kick - front toe kick, front heel kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, back kick, inside crescent kick, outside crescent kick, tornado kick, jumping double front kick, jumping crescent kick, ...
> ...


It really depends on the particular style of Baguazhang you are talking about. Palm strikes finger strikes, wrist strikes, forearm strike, elbow strike, shoulder strike, toe strike, shin strike, ball and bottom of foot, knee and hip strike, head butt Baguazhang practitioners use the whole body. 

However certain Baguazhang styles emphasis more or less a particular theme such as yin is more striking and Cheng is more grappling


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