# In praise of supplements



## Flea (Jun 7, 2009)

I've never really given them a try before, beyond the occasional multivitamin when I haven't been eating well.  I've always read that they're unnecessary as long as one eats a balanced diet.  As a hardened cheapskate, that's good enough for me.

A couple weeks ago I got seriously ill to the point where I couldn't function and contemplated a visit to the hospital.  My MA teacher is very much into Natural Living and had offered to hook me up with some resources, so I gave him a call.  He passed me along to a "nutritional consultant" and we had a long talk.  I was a little skeptical but eager to get back to my regular life, so off I went to Whole Foods.

$100+ and a few days later, I snapped back more quickly and solidly than I ever had before.  Wow!  I know the pharmaceutical changes I made through my regular doctor can claim a lot of the credit, but ... there's no question the supplements made a difference.  I'm a believer, and I'll keep taking them indefinitely to stay on firmer footing.

If anyone's willing to jump in, I'd be curious what supplements others are using and how they help.  I've been taking Omega-3, magnesium, and something called Holy Basil.  And I got a water filter for my faucet.  It tastes soooo much better than regular tap.  :burp:

Thanks for reading.


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## terryl965 (Jun 7, 2009)

What was it you got?


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## Marginal (Jun 8, 2009)

Probably goes without saying, but be careful about mixing herbs and pharmaceuticals. There can be overlap, which can create nasty side effects like coma, stroke etc.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 8, 2009)

Marginal said:


> Probably goes without saying, but be careful about mixing herbs and pharmaceuticals. There can be overlap, which can create nasty side effects like coma, stroke etc.


 
Just curious...has anyone noted that these same side-effects can and do happen from meds alone?

Eat right, stay fit, die anyway.

D.

PS -- I use a veritable butt-load of supps for my own health when I need to, and have helped facilitate dramatic changes in the health of my patients through nutriceutical Rx's. One thing that has always bugged me about nutrition docs is their tendency to increase their income by magically carrying cases of the supplement-du-jour, and selling them for a few dollars more than the store...justifiable if you don't want to make the drive as an extra errand, and are willing to pay a little more for convenience.

So I just write them out a shopping list and send them on their way to the store; even ask certain local stores to carry specific products I expect to be rxing. One brand I do have to carry inventory on is this guys; does a great job of matching peer-reviewed journal research with alt med froo perspectives, and I've seen him do some amazing things with patinets I gave up on (and I don't give up easy, but my commitment is...if I can't help you, I'll find somebody who can). http://www.pchoiceline.com/

You gotta be a doc to buy from them, but if you know somebody who's a naturopath, homeopath, TCM, chiro, or holistic MD, ... yep; taking the time to shamelessly pump this guys stuff, cuz I appreciate it that much. Elegant simplicity.


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## stickarts (Jun 8, 2009)

I think we are just scratching the surface in learning about the potential in vitamins, minerals, and herbs, and there is a lot of confusion because every week or two you read about a different study done, often conflicting with the last study that was done! Also, what helps or hurts one person in a certain dosage may or may not help a different person. I have noticed as positive difference in myself when I take a high quality daily multivitamin but I have never believed in taking magadoses of vitamins. Also, different things work at different times for different people! You can do dome research on it and also learning comes from trial and error ( as safely as possible ).


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 8, 2009)

Flea said:


> I've never really given them a try before, beyond the occasional multivitamin when I haven't been eating well. I've always read that they're unnecessary as long as one eats a balanced diet. As a hardened cheapskate, that's good enough for me.
> 
> A couple weeks ago I got seriously ill to the point where I couldn't function and contemplated a visit to the hospital. My MA teacher is very much into Natural Living and had offered to hook me up with some resources, so I gave him a call. He passed me along to a "nutritional consultant" and we had a long talk. I was a little skeptical but eager to get back to my regular life, so off I went to Whole Foods.
> 
> ...


 
The right amount of vitamins and supplements is good the wrong amount, depending on type is a waste of money and at times dangerous

But I take a multivitamin and 2 fish oil tablets a day and I started listening to my Wife the TCM OMD and a friend of mine a Yoga Therapist and I am eating better and feeling better these days. And I found this rather interesting as well



stickarts said:


> I think we are just scratching the surface in learning about the potential in vitamins, minerals, and herbs, and there is a lot of confusion because every week or two you read about a different study done, often conflicting with the last study that was done! Also, what helps or hurts one person in a certain dosage may or may not help a different person. I have noticed as positive difference in myself when I take a high quality daily multivitamin but I have never believed in taking *magadoses of vitamins*. Also, different things work at different times for different people! You can do dome research on it and also learning comes from trial and error ( as safely as possible ).


 
Agreed

On to Mega doses

Mega doses of multivitamins do little more than the regular dose since your body only uses so much and flushes the rest. But I am talking water soluble here.

Fat Soluble on the other hand can be a problem they can build up in teh body and cause nausea, vomiting and Diarrhea and in some cases death.

List of Vitamins


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## Marginal (Jun 8, 2009)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Just curious...has anyone noted that these same side-effects can and do happen from meds alone?


Stacking med and herbal blood thinners etc tends to be a bad idea. Some folks do it anyway thinking that herbs are "natural and therefore always safe".


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 8, 2009)

I have said it before and I will say it again. 

Herbs are not safe just because they are considered natural. One should not self medicate with herbs. If one wants to use them you need to go to a person that is highly trained in the use of Herbal medicine

Just because you know Penicillin is made up of Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Oxygen and Sulfur does not mean any old combination will do


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## Flea (Jun 8, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have said it before and I will say it again.
> 
> Herbs are not safe just because they are considered natural. One should not self medicate with herbs.



Absolutely!  After all, hemlock is an herb too, isn't it?  I remember once having a conversation with a hippie chick who was waxing romantic about "all natural" this and that.  I agreed with her on general principle, but she seemed to have a limited knowledge on specifics.  Finally I pointed out that arsenic is also "all natural," as is botulism.  She was a little taken aback.  I'm not sure why I did that; in retrospect I guess it was a little snotty.  I felt the point needed to be made.

I digress, as I so often do.  :wink1:

At any rate, I did the best homework I could before I hit the store.  I found lots of solid research on the Omega-3, from NIH studies on down.  Not quite as much on the Magnesium but enough that I was willing to give it a try.  All I could find out about the Holy Basil was that it's a "adaptogen."  In practice, my reaction to it varies between nothing at all and finding it to be a good xanax clone.  I've been playing a losing game of phone tag with my doctor to run all this by her.

If anyone here has any good suggestions of what else I could use, please let me know.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 8, 2009)

Flea said:


> I've been playing a losing game of phone tag with my doctor to run all this by her...snip


 
I'm assuming you mean your family M.D.?  Unless she's a member of ACAM, or has a self-directed fascination with natural medicine, I wouldn't expect her to know much; it'd be a bot like calling your plumber to ask about the electricity in your house. MD's get 1 unit hour of nutrition in their education, focusing on food pyramid and macronutrients; micronutirents only as related to pathophysiology processes (i.e., potassium issues as related to kidney function; calcium issues as related to bone density, etc.).

And, unfortunately, there just aren't any really stellar sorces for consistently producing prudent practitioners in natural medicines. Naturopathic colleges run the gamut from the very strange and far-reaching froo, to the very responsible...seems to depend on the individual practitioners personal philosophies, than on an industry-wide practice focus.


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## girlbug2 (Jun 9, 2009)

I've been taking mag/calcium supps for a while now; it seems to help a lot for me to get a good quality night's sleep. I used to be unaware that calcium needs magnesium to absorb properly and vice versa. My high calcium diet never had a balance of magnesium for maximum benefit and it affected a lot of things, including sleep patterns.

Recently I have also been taking a vitamin D3 supp. D3 is a good general immune system booster and a natural antidepressant. Our generation doesn't get nearly enough D3 through sunlight. The liquid form D3 absorbs well in my system.

As to the notion that a well balanced diet doesn't need supps...that may have been true about 100 years ago. But sometime in the 20th century that began to change. Our agricultural crops have been farmed intensively and chemically with the result that the nutrient content of soil is depleted. Vegetables, fruits and even grains no longer have the level of vitamins and minerals  that they did in generations past. Even a perfectly balanced diet is bound to leave us vitamin deficient in some areas.

See The Omnivore's Dilemma by Pollan for a more complete explanation of this.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 9, 2009)

I have yet to find anyone with the longest life expectancy be it groups such as Okinawans/Japanese/Andorra/Singapore etc etc consuming supplements like here in America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Look at America it is number 41 and one of the largest consumers of supplements. It is a multi-billion dollar industry and products are being pulled off the shelf every week to be discont. due to something. The people in the stores usually have little to none medical knowledge and they have no idea about contraindications,side effects. I was a manager for Vitamin Shoppe and I was asked by an old lady about side effects of a pill I told her about what some studies have found out and to discuss the risk and benefits of the pill the lady thanked me and my boss screamed at me I quit that night because I could not sell products to people without them knowing the risks of the product. 
You don't need supplements unless you are suffering from a severe nurtitional diet like I did when I was younger living off nothing but Ramen.
Herbs should be prepared by a licensed Herbalist or TCM doctor. There are books that deal with drug and herb interaction and most TCM doctors have a PDA or other Pharmacy book.  It is true most Family doctors do not know much outside their scope of practice so herbs and supplements they know about the same as someone who reads Prevention magazine.


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## girlbug2 (Jun 9, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> You don't need supplements unless you are suffering from a severe nurtitional diet like I did when I was younger living off nothing but Ramen.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Now that I can agree with!


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## Flea (Jun 9, 2009)

As do I.

For myself I see it this way.  I have a severely debilitating, degenerative chronic illness.  I'll do whatever I can within reason.  I've consulted with specialists who work with my condition and they've recommended supplements with the caveat that "research is sketchy on the benefits.  But while they may or may not help, while used reasonably they can't hurt."  At which point they go on to define "reasonable" within specific parameters.

If I'm wasting money, so be it.  But I'd rather waste a little money taking a chance on something that _might_ make a positive difference.  A lot of the expensive pharmaceuticals are a crapshoot too.  

That said JadeCloud, I'd like to find a "licensed herbalist."  Is there some kind of listing you could send me?  I'd love to see it.


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## Live True (Jun 9, 2009)

I take fish oil (also because of research), calcium (recommended by my endocrinologist to assist with joint pain and issues related to pregnancy/parenthood), and a regular multivitamin. I've noticed that I really do think better and feel better with these. Other than that, I try to eat healthy and grow some of my own heirloom crops...growing for taste and vitamin content, and not shelf live/travel-ability.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 9, 2009)

I don't agree with the statement that we don't need supplements. We don't even know all of the micronutrients that are diminished in the food chain. There are raging debates about soil demineralization: fact or fiction? being carried on by University profs and corporate attorneys, all way more in-the-know than we will ever have cause to be. 

We continue to find new stuff out about what influences our ongoing health, all the time. To say "we take lotsa supplements and die anyway at #41 life expectency" is to commit the logical fallacy of equivocation: Two things that land on the same scatterplot are not causal of each other. The issue with American health is one of gluttony with crap, getting obese while starving to death. We eat foods devoid of decent content, overbred, genetically modified, inbred, producing indigestable protiens while lacking viable enzymes from being overprocessed, and eat a ton more sugar in a single year than our ancestors had access to over their lifetimes just 200 years ago. 

Lets add the following issues to a soup, and see what happens:

Grains bred for size, pest resistance, and yield, producing "new" protein formations undigestable by our body's (ever wonder why corn looks the same coming out as it did going in? Do you really think that digestability changes if we grind it up and make corn flakes out of it?). But that's OK...foods contain their own enzymes that aid in the lysis of protiens during digestion, right? But wait! Those only help if we don't denature them chemically during processing, or through heat during cooking. Anybody wanna think about all the stuff that happens to the wheat in your morning cereal from conception to consumption?
Soil demineralization was an issue 80 years ago. Anybody here think it's gotten better since then? We add in 3 main minerals that help push growth in the plant, but ultiumately lead to greater acidification of the soil, and more demineralization of alkaline nutrients that benefit our health. Don't take my word for it...research both sides of the issue, and get back to us.
We eat more junk food and processed food containing chemical substitutes known to be carcinogenic, than at any time prior in human history. And while they are starting to catch up to us in other Westernized countries, we still have a serious head start. Go buy a chocolate shake and big mac at McDonalds, and set them in a corner of the garage where nothing can eat them. Go look at them in a month, then 6 months, then 1 year. They don't break down under natural conditions of rot or decay, because of the plastics in them; more mutagenic garbage we can't digest, but our body will try anyway, leeching out digestive enzymes as they try to gnaw on this stuff. Think we can or should live off plastic? So...you may be more health conscious than your countrymen, cuz you are a martial artist....so you don't eat lots of Micky-D's. But go watch the drive-thru line at lunch, and count the number of people popping in. Then multiply that by the number of McD's in the nation, and that by the number of days in the week. Seem like a formula for good national health? Think maybe some of that might be contributing to that high morbidity rate? Maybe a more direct correlation than supplements?
Serving sizes -- So, you're supposed to have a couple servings of this a day, and a couple servings of that a day. Do you, or anybody you know, really 1) know how big a serving of it is, or 2) make sure that only a serving of said food is on your plate while you eat? While we lack the essential micronutrients for vital health, we pig out on the amounts of empty calories we consume. We eat massive amounts of useless food, plugging up our digestive tracts (GI cancer anybody?), fouling our guts (indigestion is a multi-billion industry, fixed by cutting serving sizes and adding alkaline foods or supplements, which have global positive effects on health...see anybody bitchin' about those darned Pepcid and Mylanta people bilking mindless consumers out of their hard-earned pay?), causing putrefaction in abundance which caseates the intestinal walls, leading to the leakage of food wastes into the bloodstream, where it triggers inflammatory reactions that contribute to cancer, heart disease, stroke, CFIDS, fibromyalgia, etc. (don't take my word for it...hunt down the TIME magazine article on Inflammation from several years back, outlining the specific chemical pathways and mechanisms by which inflammation acts as the number one cause of other diseases in first world countries), osteoarthritis (how many drug companies benefit from little old ladies continuing to have brittle bones?), and more.
So...inflammation triggers a buildup of inflammatory protiens in the interstitial spaces (the space between sheets of cells), which diminishes nutrient absorption and waste elimination of the cells in that organ, compromising organ function, leading to health dysfunctions first, and diseases second. What have you done lately to break up and rinse out these excess extra-cellular protiens? Think the answer to addressing that comes in a bag of chips and a coke? Any foods at all that you might buy from Safeway or Lucky? Or might one need to address this nutritionally, since the stuff we put in the front of our heads is what goes to our cells, and fills the aquarium they swim in?
Better idea...lets wait until it gets so bad, that we start showing multiple health symptoms. And rather than put the fire out by changing the nutrition and exercise habits that jacked us up in the first place, let's just turn off the fire alarm through the gratuitous application of multiple meds that mask and diminish symptoms, while ignoring causation. Then, when the wheels come off the wagon, we can say, "but I went to my doctor, and he put me on ____ , so I did my part" and absolve ourselves of responsibility for our own best well-being? That'll be great comfort to you while you lay there post-stroke, justified in not having minded your food and supplement intake, cuz the doctor never made you, and because beta-sitosterol and freeze-dried glandulars didn't appear anywhere on the Food Pyramid.

The food chain is deficient in the substances our bodies need. Time was, we ate the whole animal, including organs. Obscure mineral salts from sundry organ tissues found their ways into our diets in small amounts...hence the word "trace". Now we just eat the skeletal meat of animals raised on mass-produced grain, forced to grow under chemical influence, and -- despite the swollen size of their body mass -- essentially starving to death at the time of slaughter. But we'll call it "good enough" nutrition, because it has protien. And every person who has been through med school nutrition class knows nutrition is only about vitamins, minerals, protiens, fats and carbs; foods are merely the delivery mechanisms for crude nutrient minimums. By the way...how's that hormone replacement therapy working for ya? What's that? You aren't on HRT? Bet me. If you're eating meat you buy at the grocery store...

So...what to do about it. Vitamin Shoppe? Nah. As pointed out, training lacks. There are some great things on their shelves, but without direction... Classic example, before they took it off the shelf, was Ephedra Herba. Mahuang is a chinese medicinal herb, next to never given by itself. Once it's discovered to have thermogenic properties, buncha dumb haulies isolate it, package it in megadoses, and sell the crap out of it until somebody dies. Milk thistle and dandelion have anti-inflamm effects in the liver. So what have we done? Ayup...isolate it, package it in megadoses, and sell the crap out of it. Let's ignore that it works best in small doses, paired with synergistic herbs. If I hear one more doltish twit say "Dongquai is a womans herb" while popping megadoses of it in isolation, I'm gonna explode.

I've been in the nutrition industry since 84. Trained with some of the best in Chinese herbalism, Functional Nutrition (using supplements to treat health issues), naturopathic health care, etc. I still cringe when I see people write stuff like, "my friend is a nurse, and she says.." or "my brother in law is a certified nutritionist, and he says...". The nurse gets the cliff notes version of standard nutrition training...what foods contain what nutrients, so they can prevent starvation; to their benefit, most get a semester...much more than a doctor. But the training is still to RDA standards...which BY DEFINITION, are the bare minimum required to prevent diseases of deficiency, as identified in the early part of last century...NOT promote health, or prevent early organ dysfunction in light of the nutritional challenges of our time. Got rickets? Eat citrus...that's the mentality in RDA recc's...nothing to do with, "Live a stressful life always on the go during a time filled with more environmental toxins than ever and a food chain made up of stuff that sustains without nurturing and are trying to reverse cardiovascular disease and prevent cancer?" Nutritionists with the A.A. from the JC are in a longer version of the same boat, trained to be skeptical about anything outside their field of training. Just like every other vertical field in healthcare.

They are not qualified to weigh in with an informed opinion. Well...maybe they are. I can buy tools at Home Depot, and have taken shop class in high school and tinkered in my garage, so I can offer an opinion -- of sorts -- on anything ranging from plumbing, to electricity, to architectural engineering. Will it be as informed an opinion as those offered by an actual electrician? An actual Architect?

In a very roundabout and frustrated way, I'm saying I agree with the "certified practitioner" approach. Despite hanging with most of the mucky-mucks in Nutritional Medicine, and having met and hung with hundreds if not thousands over the years in courses, trainings, diplomate programs, etc., there are maybe only 10 I trust to really know what the hell they are talking about; only 2 I refer people to if I can't get to them myself. Despite having taught classes on herbalism at TCM colleges, and despite having been trained by some of the best minds in TCM, having met (again) hundreds of educated practitioners along the way, there are maybe 3 I would trust with my life, going to them for assistance if diagnosed with a gnarly thing. And not just because I'm an a-hole.

You know what they call the class valedictorian out of Harvard med? Doctor. You know what they call the guy who graduated at the bottom of his class from some 3rd rate private med school overseas, who slept through his lectures and cheated on all of his exams to pass them? Doctor. Are they in the same class as practitioners, or is one more qualified than the other? We have a white-coat society, bred and trained to respect authority as authoritative, even when they aren't. Don't ask your MD about nutrition; he won't really know. Likewise, don't ask me about prescription meds, and their indications, contraindications, etc. I don't have the training or expereince there for my opinion to really matter. Don't ask a friend who's a nurse about nutrition for heart disease or reversing the effects of diabetes and rebuilding a damaged and overwrought pancreas; she won't know either, for the same reasons. Don't bother asking a nutritionist; the vast majority of them are just as lost, and enculturated to an allopathic model of health, so as to work in symbiosis with the allopathic care community (think a truly gifted nutrition guru prepared that hospital food for ya?).

There are whackjobs with no clue who have "MD" next to their names. There are sensible practritioners with lesser alphabets. Likewise, there are very skilled healers with 'MD" next to their names, and waaaaayyyyy more whackjobs with other letters next to theirs. Gawds...I'm in the crunchiest granola place in California, where every old hippie goes to die. Everybody is a freakin expert on everything; just ask them. I have to go to a networking lunch soon...where some woman who has ascended her notoriety as a sex coach (hard to believe looking at her, that she has any practical experience of her own), also offers her nutrition advice to a worried well woman wanting to drop a few pounds for a party. I sit with my mouth shut and cringe, because if I open it, it won't stop until I've told her to screw all the way off.

Nutrition and supplements are complicated; that's not the same thing as useless or inherently wasteful. Ask around for referrals, do your homework, read a lot, research both sides of an issue ("we like EFA's because..." versus "we think EFA's may be dangerous, because..."; look for their listed references, and go pull them. Become the expert on your own health, and on the stuff your putting in your body that effects your health).

Serious rant. But I won't apologize for it, because I take it seriously. Our bodies live and die at the cellular level. Every bite of food can act to either support your health, or diminish it. Supplements provide stuffs that the food chain does not...either at all, or in sufficient amounts. Avoid falling for logical fallacies, wherever they rear their ugly heads...either trying to sell you supplements, or trying to steer you away from them. Your health is yor life...try to go to work, love your spouse, hug your kids, or even clean your own bottom while laying there with a dozen tubes sticking out of you; you health is too important to be mentally lazy over.

Be well,

D.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 9, 2009)

If supplements are so great then why the United states which is one of the largest users of supplements one of the most unhealthiest places in the world? 

We know countries like Japan do not consume the same amount of supplements as done in America yet the live much longer than America. Japanese have one of the healthiest diets and they do not seem to suffer the effects as found in America such as Obesity,Diabetes,Cardiovascular problems and so on.

Looking at the list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

compare:


> The number of centenarians is increasing at a rate of 7 percent per year. Japan has the highest ratio of Centenarians. In Okinawa, there are 34.7 centenarians for every 100,000 inhabitants [22].
> In the United States, the number of centenarians grew from 15,000 in 1980 to 77,000 in 2000.


 
We also know that the majority of centenarians around the world did not add supplements to their diet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centenarian

http://www.truveo.com/Do-Vitamins-Really-Work/id/3210954852

And there are plenty of more that say Supplements are not as great as people think. Can supplements help? In some case they might. 

If you are eating a diet that is a variety of foods you are most likely not suffering from any deficient areas though everyone is different.
So if you want to take supplements and you feel they work for you go for it knock yourself out.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 9, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> If supplements are so great then why the United states which is one of the largest users of supplements one of the most unhealthiest places in the world?
> 
> We know countries like Japan do not consume the same amount of supplements as done in America yet the live much longer than America. Japanese have one of the healthiest diets and they do not seem to suffer the effects as found in America such as Obesity,Diabetes,Cardiovascular problems and so on.
> 
> ...


 
Dude. Did you seriously just use Wikipedia to support a logical fallacy?


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 9, 2009)

Kempo your post is rather lengthy so I did not read the entire thing.

But it seems we are blaming Americans Obesity on Fast food. Last time I checked noone held a gun to a persons head and told them to eat there.
People need to take personal responsibility for their actions and suffer the consquences of their poor choices.
Andrew Weil's Children would eat only bread and water when the went to a Fast food place. Maybe he is on the extreme side but you do have a choice what you buy and consume.
You can read the packages and decide what to put in your body. 
On one side we have a multi-billion dollar industry of fast food 
And the other side we have the multi-billion dollar industry of supplements.

Both are sythetic forms of nutrients From Colorado state university
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09338.html

My point is other countries are having a longer life without supplements due to their diet and stress management. We as Americans need to stop looking for the lazy way out with magic pills and start taking responsibility for our choices and stop making excuses.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 9, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Kempo your post is rather lengthy so I did not read the entire thing.
> 
> But it seems we are blaming Americans Obesity on Fast food. Last time I checked noone held a gun to a persons head and told them to eat there.
> People need to take personal responsibility for their actions and suffer the consquences of their poor choices.
> ...


 
The colorado state uni food guru makes his living advocating eating a caveman diet, including raw organ meats. As mentioned above, a great source for micronutirnets not otherwise available in the food chain. Since pretty much nobody I know is gonna do that, they can get some of those benefits from freeze-dried versins of the same thing, also mentioned in my posy above. Sold as a...umm...supplement.

He makes my points for me better than I ever could.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 9, 2009)

Here's a link to one of his presentations, discussing generations and our genetic abilities to process certain foods. Fascinating. I had a patient who came back from the brink of death from full blown AIDS by making raw-meat & veggie smoothies with stuff like kidneys, lungs, etc.

Got a blender and a strong stomach?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 9, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Americans need to stop looking for the lazy way out with magic pills and start taking responsibility for our choices and stop making excuses.


 
That about covers it.

Supplements have their place and if your diet is lacking they can help but they are not to be taken like candy or as a replacement for a good ole healthy diet. Some supplements can have rather nasty side effects others don't. Basically don't just start popping supplements just because you think it is a good idea or some exercise guru or actor on TV tells you to.... do the research.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 9, 2009)

Kempo

He listed information and his sources on Pill vs Food for nutrients.

As far as Wiki goes it is used alot on forums not just here as a point of reference which also lists its sources of information.

Here is from WebMd saying to take our nutrients


> Instead, researchers say the most promising research in nutrition and preventing disease now relates to dietary patterns, not nutritional supplements


 
http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20050719/food-better-source-of-nutrients-than-pills

If you disagree with me thats fine.

I perfer a natural/organic diet with actual herbs sold by a licensed  herbalist then supplements from GNC or other pill shaped items.

To each their own 
Best of health


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 9, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Kempo
> 
> He listed information and his sources on Pill vs Food for nutrients.
> 
> ...


 
The part in bold is gold. Most organic certification organizations requuire that a farm undergo some natural form of soil restoration, over a period of time prior to certification of crops grown there.

And I am in complete agreement. All the food in my cupboards are from organic sources. My eggs are from cage-free, free-roaming birds; my dead cow from local sorces who free-roam their cattle on organically grown grasses from natural seed. Grass fed, plus. Same with the turkey.

My supps are manufactured from either wild-harvested or organically grown whole-food sources...not a Vitamin C extract or ascorbic acid crystals, but a ground up and encapsulated Vitamin C food source. Thin is, the broad brish of "supplements" applies to the organic condensed foods I consume, just as much as the crappy Centrum & GNC stuff.

Using supplements, I've beaten back my own CML, helped others beat a whole slew of diseases that the allopathic model ain't quite sure what to do with. Reversed NIDDM (type 2), sending pateints back to their family docs for verification and continued monitoring. Reversed traumatic bradycardia; all sorts of funky things. For me, medicines are the foods we eat, the thoughts we think, and the exercise we give our bodies. Nature has provided us with a majority of the substances we need to create and maintain our best health; and those substances are found in foods that havent been monkeyed with.

Not everyone will go shop at Whole Foods or their local organic grocer & butcher, so the supps I work with are organic foods, ground and encapsulated. Still a supp.

D.


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## girlbug2 (Jun 9, 2009)

Kembudo,

Dude, you just summarized In Defense of Food by Michael Pollan! Thanks for spreading the word.

Keep fighting the good fight man


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