# Excessive or not?



## Tgace (Jan 19, 2014)

This video is starting the social media rounds:






I do not know anything about what this guy was doing but obviously he is being arrested. Was Taser'ed and is still refusing to roll over and comply with being cuffed. One officer applies some baton strikes to the subjects lower legs. One officer tries to roll the guy over and he starts kicking...eventually they roll him and cuff him and its over.

People are yelling "police brutality" all over the place...I really don't see it. Sure they could have piggy piled on the guy and still wound up having to "stick" him...there didn't appear to be any "gratuitous" use of force. The guy using the baton "looks" bad to the uninitiated I guess, but the lower legs are a valid target for that tool and the guy was using his legs to kick at officers. I saw no kicks, head strikes, multiple officers "piling on" with punches/kicks/sticks/etc. Sure they "could have" piled on the guy and wrestled him but they also could use the tools they have and attempt to gain compliance.

Someone keeps saying "they keep on Tasing him!" But I can't really tell if they did or how many times, the guy doesn't stiffen up or exhibit many of the physical indications of "taking a ride" that I can see. 

I think this is yet another example of people just not knowing what they are looking at or having some sort of expectation of what "nice" use of force is supposed to look like. 

Thoughts?


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## K-man (Jan 19, 2014)

I would suggest that if that happened here there would likely be a huge public reaction and probably an enquiry. Why was the guy naked? Does he suffer from a mental illness?  What had he allegedly done wrong? All things you need to know before making a judgement.

Certainly not a good look from the public perspective.
:asian:


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## Tgace (Jan 19, 2014)

K-man said:


> I would suggest that if that happened here there would likely be a huge public reaction and probably an enquiry. Why was the guy naked? Does he suffer from a mental illness?  What had he allegedly done wrong? All things you need to know before making a judgement.
> 
> Certainly not a good look from the public perspective.
> :asian:



He's not naked...hes shirtless. Maybe he was hot...maybe he removed it because of the effects of narcotics (common). Maybe he removed it as part of his aggressive display prior to arrest (also common). 

In the end, the "reasons" for arrest don't really matter when it comes to use of force. If I try to arrest you for stealing a candy bar and you resist arrest I can Tase you...if you start kicking, spitting biting, etc I can use my baton if necessary.


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## billc (Jan 19, 2014)

Yeah, it never looks good when the baton gets swung on someone.  they didn't look like real grand slam strikes,but to regular folks,they might.  I have to say I wouldn't want to be the officer who used the baton...he is going to have a rough time I think.  It would be,interesting to know how they got to this point...what he did to get there...


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## Tgace (Jan 19, 2014)

billc said:


> Yeah, it never looks good when the baton gets swung on someone.  they didn't look like real grand slam strikes,but to regular folks,they might.  I have to say I wouldn't want to be the officer who used the baton...he is going to have a rough time I think.  It would be,interesting to know how they got to this point...what he did to get there...



Thing is (IMO) it's more about "looks" with a baton...to be honest unless you are talking about head strikes the baton isn't really as effective as you would think. It's more about "convincing a subject" to comply (yes a little fear and intimidation) than any physical effect it produces. The leg strikes "look" worse than what they actually produce. That's why many cops have been leaving the baton in the car and take Tasers/OC Spray instead.

I'm sure any Dog Brother fighter would tell you that those strikes looked worse than what they produced.

PS-I have to add...in this situation it looks like it's possible the officer did indeed do some damage with the baton.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/05/long-beach-police-porfirio-santos-lopez_n_3873991.html



> Sgt. Aaron Eaton told KNBC-TV that Santos-Lopez, 46, punched arriving officers, fell down, refused to turn onto his stomach and kicked officers, knocking one in the head.
> According to KNBC, Santos-Lopez told authorities he was drunk and high on methamphetamine. He was treated at a hospital for injuries received either before or during the arrest.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 19, 2014)

At some point you need to put the toys away, put your gloves on and grab him.


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## Tgace (Jan 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> At some point you need to put the toys away, put your gloves on and grab him.



That is true...even then I have had to twist arms, punch biceps and knee thighs to wrangle someone into cuffs. All of which I guess could have been seen as excessive by someone standing by who never had the experience of wrestling someone into bracelets before.

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## ballen0351 (Jan 19, 2014)

Tgace said:


> That is true...even then I have had to twist arms, punch biceps and knee thighs to wrangle someone into cuffs. All of which I guess could have been seen as excessive by someone standing by who never had the experience of wrestling someone into bracelets before.
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



Right it appears the taser and baton isnt working so you need to change what your doing.  Cops are relying too much on the go go gadget belt now days either due to G.Os and Use of Force matrix or lack of training in going hands on.  We get taser or baton or OC training like once a year. We hardly ever get hands on DT training.  I have to beg command staff for small blocks of training on hands and its normally only approved after someone gets injured and I can show the command staff how I could prevent that injury with this training or that training.  I always tell people its like a war your tools ae like air support.  You can keep the enemy contained with planes but need boots on the ground to win.  At some point you have to go hands on.  Getting kicked or punched sucks but sometimes its going to happen.


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## billc (Jan 19, 2014)

Actually, this would be a good regular thread...find instances of police subduing jerks, and then have the non-law enforcement types here comment on what they think...


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## Tgace (Jan 19, 2014)

In this instance I can see..as Ballen pointed out...a point that perhaps these officers could have gone hands on sooner and used less stick and Taser....but I'm still not 100% convinced that what they did do was "excessive" in light of the resistance.

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## K-man (Jan 19, 2014)

billc said:


> Actually, this would be a good regular thread...find instances of police subduing jerks, and then have the non-law enforcement types here comment on what they think...


I would have thought you might have been all for civil rights. I mean, this sort of thing happens regularly in those leftist countries. 



> According to a recent Amnesty International study, there are thousands of reports each year of assault and ill treatment against officers who use excessive force and violate the human rights of their victims (AIUSA Rights 1999:1). Police officers are injuring and even killing people through the use of excessive force and brutal treatment. A significant problem in this area is that police behavior is abusive of civilian rights, but it is also considered necessary and appropriate police procedure (Geller, 1996:7). *In many cases police go too far when they excessively punch, kick, beat, and shoot people who pose no threat. Injuries and sometimes death result from the police use of restraints, chemical sprays, electro-shock weapons, batons, dogs, flashlights, radios, and guns* (AIUSA Rights 1999:1-3). Police brutality cases have received more attention due to some of the high profile cases that reach the media. *The use of excessive force is a criminal act, it is in fact a type of white collar crime.
> *http://www.drury.edu/ess/irconf/dmangan.html


Police have a difficult job but their actions have to be within the law, even when dealing with jerks.
:asian:


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## billc (Jan 19, 2014)

> I would have thought you might have been all for civil rights.



I am for civil rights, but I am also for obeying duly created laws...and the big one here is complying with the orders of a police officer.  If you have a problem with the arrest...you say..." I want a lawyer...right ******* now"  and then you let the shark handle your case from there.  If the police told this guy to comply and he didn't, and in fact initially fought them( which I don't think we know from the clip) the officers were making a lawful arrest.  Wether or not it was excessive can't really be told from the small clip we have.  

Did the guy initially resist with a weapon?  If he did, then the night stick would make more sense...an officer doesn't have to take the chance on getting stabbed to make an arrest.  So until we know more, you really can't tell if his civil rights have actually been violated.

And still...if your rights are violated by police...you comply with the arrest...and then sue everyone involved and then buy really nice things...



> I mean, this sort of thing happens regularly in those leftist countries.



Actually, in those leftist countries, the government is violating the rights of the citizen and the citizen has no recourse to the law...unlike in the United States, and probably even in Australia...


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## ballen0351 (Jan 19, 2014)

K-man said:


> I would have thought you might have been all for civil rights. I mean, this sort of thing happens regularly in those leftist countries.
> 
> 
> Police have a difficult job but their actions have to be within the law, even when dealing with jerks.
> :asian:



What part wasn't within the law?


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## Tgace (Jan 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> What part wasn't within the law?



And would you quantify it as "excessive kicking/punching/etc."? Note the definition said "excessive" and not "any"....which seems to be the standard these bystanders are applying.

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## billc (Jan 19, 2014)

My brother, on officer of the law, had an interesting case...went to a bar where a guy started a fight with a softball team...yes, he insulted one of them and then they beat him up.  My brother arrives and is talking to the guy, getting ready to take action against the attackers, when another officer arrives, a minority officer.  This guy starts using racial epithets against the newly arrived minority officer...and eventually ends up getting arrested by my brother, and the minority officer as well as other newly arrived officers...and then uses a lawyer to say that the damage done by the softball team was done by my brother and the other officers (plural, who arrived to assist)...I believe the village settled out of court...I'll have to ask my about this again...

So, I am alway reluctant to take the side of the perp. without knowing all of the details of the arrest...


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## ballen0351 (Jan 19, 2014)

Tgace said:


> In this instance I can see..as Ballen pointed out...a point that perhaps these officers could have gone hands on sooner and used less stick and Taser....but I'm still not 100% convinced that what they did do was "excessive" in light of the resistance.
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



I don't think it was excessive.  Just not the best approach to me.  When you have 6 cops standing in a circle not doing anything but looking your asking for criticism.  Hit him with the taser during the 5 seconds grab him flip him and cuff him your not going to get shocked.  Or put it away and everyone grab an arm or leg flip him cuff and shackle him and be done with it.  4 min of standing around doing noting looks bad to the public even if totally with in your G.O.s


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## billc (Jan 19, 2014)

Well, I saw an episode of cops once...it was shot in Great Britain...they had to deal with a guy and when they decided to arrest him, they politely asked him to get into their tiny police car...and he did, and they didn't cuff the guy...  They took him to the station, and they waited to search the guy for weapons until just before they moved him from the main desk to the cell area...I couldn't believe it...


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## Tgace (Jan 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I don't think it was excessive.  Just not the best approach to me.  When you have 6 cops standing in a circle not doing anything but looking your asking for criticism.  Hit him with the taser during the 5 seconds grab him flip him and cuff him your not going to get shocked.  Or put it away and everyone grab an arm or leg flip him cuff and shackle him and be done with it.  4 min of standing around doing noting looks bad to the public even if totally with in your G.O.s



Exactly. We train to "cuff under power". Get on him and flip him and cuff the moment the ride ends and you can bend the arms.

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## oftheherd1 (Jan 19, 2014)

billc said:


> ...
> 
> So, I am alway reluctant to take the side of the perp. without knowing all of the details of the arrest...



A pity more people don't have your wisdom.  You might be surprised how many times people lie about police actions.



ballen0351 said:


> I don't think it was excessive.  Just not the best approach to me.  When you have 6 cops standing in a circle not doing anything but looking your asking for criticism.  Hit him with the taser during the 5 seconds grab him flip him and cuff him your not going to get shocked.  Or put it away and everyone grab an arm or leg flip him cuff and shackle him and be done with it.  4 min of standing around doing noting looks bad to the public even if totally with in your G.O.s



Pretty much how I saw it as I watched the video and read the responses.  I don't know what the reason might have been, but it really seems to have gone on too long.  If there was a reason, I would love to hear it.  As to the striking the legs, that often does look worse, but that is one of the problems.  Especially when you have that many officers just standing around.  Again, I don't know if there was a reason for that such as a suspicion of needles in his hand, or some other medical issue.


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## jks9199 (Jan 19, 2014)

Tgace said:


> That is true...even then I have had to twist arms, punch biceps and knee thighs to wrangle someone into cuffs. All of which I guess could have been seen as excessive by someone standing by who never had the experience of wrestling someone into bracelets before.
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



A couple months back, I was arresting a kid for simply being drunk in public.  I had hold of him, and he started to pull away.  My partner gets into it, and we're struggling with him.  We shove him onto the hood of my cruiser, and he managed to squirm/scramble his way up onto the hood...   We pulled him off, and are putting him onto the ground but he managed to get his feet under him and pushed up...  He eventually fell, and broke my grip on his arm when he did so.  My partner deployed the Taser -- but the leads broke since the kid was running.  I saw him start to lock up, and then get his steam back.  In the end, he managed to get away.

I probably should have hit him but he was only pulling away, not actually attacking me.  I did knee him at least once.  

Here's my point.  Use of force ain't pretty.  And a guy resisting arrest can be a handful, even if he's not attacking you.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 19, 2014)

billc said:


> Well, I saw an episode of cops once...it was shot in Great Britain...they had to deal with a guy and when they decided to arrest him, they politely asked him to get into their tiny police car...and he did, and they didn't cuff the guy...  They took him to the station, and they waited to search the guy for weapons until just before they moved him from the main desk to the cell area...I couldn't believe it...


That's not just over seas.  I've seen some crazy stuff in some smaller departments.  I remember we were tracking a PCP dealer that had property a few counties over.  I went over there and had a deputy show me the area.  He didn't carry cuffs, spray, baton, or wear a vest.  I asked him about it and he said "I grew up here everyone knows me they won't hurt me.". I said really because the guy who's house your taking me too isn't from here, doesn't know you, and will kill you.  He laughed and said naa I'm OK.


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## K-man (Jan 20, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> What part wasn't within the law?


My comment was a general statement to Bill and not specifically directed at the video situation. Bill was intimating that the police are always right and they always do the right thing. I believe that is mostly the case, but there are many instances where they cross the line and end up being sued or worse, ending up facing charges. 

In this instance I have no idea what sparked the incident or what happened before the video commenced. Was it excessive? Possibly. Did it look bad and show the police in poor light? Certainly. Could it have been handled better? Probably. As I said, if that video was taken here, there would be an enquiry. I'm not calling it one way or the other.
:asian:


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## DennisBreene (Jan 20, 2014)

I have to agree with several others.  What puzzled me as I watched this was why the officers were taking so long in taking control of the individual.  He clearly was not going to comply with requests to turn over.  At some point when what you are doing isn't working, it's time to try something else.  As for excessive force; one crack on the legs with a baton made me wince but he was kicking.  All in all, I'd say the officers were trying too hard to avoid injuring the individual and probably made the situation worse for themselves in the process.  I don't see excessive force at all and think the argument for more direct force in this case is pretty compelling.


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