# Articulating your rank



## smclain3 (Feb 21, 2004)

I have been stdying karate for 4 years now and I recently came across the topic of articulating your rank. I have a friend that has studied a certain martial art for several years and he is interested in studying another style.  The instructor told him that he could articulate his current rank in his existing style to a new one. What does articulate your rank mean and is it very common. 
Thanks
smclain3


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## bdparsons (Feb 21, 2004)

I think the proper term usage in this case would be "matriculating" your rank not "articulating" your rank.

Respects,
Bill Parsons


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## Bujingodai (Mar 22, 2004)

I assume considering if a style is relatively similar it makes sense in certain situations. I have heard of this pretty commonly used as well.


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 22, 2004)

I have heard of some teachers allowing students to keep their black belt ranks when learning a new style even though i wonder if that could be a bit confusing and misleading since styles do vary as do techniques.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


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## Bujingodai (Mar 22, 2004)

Most times I have seen it is when the styles are the same just different org or very similar in style, sort of an honourable gesture.


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 22, 2004)

Something just came to mind. I remember not to long ago reading something on here about a person who at their dojo allowed people of other styles who came to his school to wear their uniform and i think rank too.

The reason for this was to show them the respect they deserve for their other studies and also to allow them to at times lecture a bit of their style.

I can see why from an honorable gesture that can be allowed. Also, I think allowing people to sample a bit of another style is a good thing too. It can help to add to some techniques being done.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Most times I have seen it is when the styles are the same just different org or very similar in style, sort of an honourable gesture.


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## rschoon (Apr 5, 2004)

I feel that if a person has earned a rank in another style then he/she has a right to wear that belt.  It doesnt mean that If he is changing or learning another style that he is what he is wearing from that other style.

I have also seen black belt have say a yellow stripe on their belt indicating their rank in the new style yet they are allowed the respect for having earned the black

Rick


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## RRouuselot (May 7, 2004)

smclain3 said:
			
		

> I have been stdying karate for 4 years now and I recently came across the topic of articulating your rank. I have a friend that has studied a certain martial art for several years and he is interested in studying another style. The instructor told him that he could articulate his current rank in his existing style to a new one. What does articulate your rank mean and is it very common.
> Thanks
> smclain3


 
One step closer than yesterday and one step further away from understanding.

(I wrote this after the $1 beer happy hour at me local......so if you understand it shoot me an email)


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## gojukylie (May 20, 2004)

At out University Dojo we had a man from france join our classes whilst he studied. He is a 3rd dan Shotokan practitioner and 2nd dan jujitsu practitioner. We have treated him with much respect and in return he has been a pleasure to train with. He now takes some classes and we have learnt alot from him and he has learnt from us. That is what it is all about.!!


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## tshadowchaser (May 23, 2004)

Wearing the rank you earned in one system while visiting another is fine, but I feel if you are going to start over and learn a whole new system you should start over as a beginner with the correct belt.


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## jdubakki (May 23, 2004)

my opinion is that if you are visiting sure wear your belt no prob, but if you are changing over to thier style you should wear thier rank. unless you have your BB then you could wear your BB with a stripe on the end showing your rank in the new style


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## Ender (May 24, 2004)

rschoon said:
			
		

> I feel that if a person has earned a rank in another style then he/she has a right to wear that belt.  It doesnt mean that If he is changing or learning another style that he is what he is wearing from that other style.
> 
> I have also seen black belt have say a yellow stripe on their belt indicating their rank in the new style yet they are allowed the respect for having earned the black
> 
> Rick




I like that idea..nods


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## Gentle Fist (May 24, 2004)

In our system, you don't wear a belt until you achieve at least your previous rank.  This goes for the kyu rank, not the actual color of the belt.  For the most part this only effects people that are say 3rd kyu and higher.  Everything before 3rd kyu can be reached within 2-3 years....


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## Matt Stone (May 25, 2004)

If you are visiting a school, wear a white belt.

If you are invited to teach at another school, you wear what you earned in the style whose techniques you are teaching.

If you start over at a new school in a new style, you are starting over, so your previous belt (as well as those accomplishments) mean nothing.  You are a beginner, and you should wear the belt that shows your current level of training in the new style.  Let your previously earned skills speak for themselves.

As for transferring rank from one style directly into a new style, that's a load.  A big, fat, steamy load.  If I have a black belt in X, and want to "transfer" to Y, even if X and Y are pretty similar, there is still something (probably the method of training) that makes X and Y different enough to keep them from being the same thing...  That means that, unless you go through Y's training, you really don't know squat about Y.  So why should you be granted rank equivalent to the rank you earned in X?

Bottom line, you shouldn't, and it smacks of "bad budo" to even think it is the same thing...  If you go through Army basic training, though it is similar in content to Marine basic training, it isn't the same and shouldn't be thought to be so.  If you go through helicopter pilot training, you can't just get out and fly a fixed wing aircraft.

The logic fails straight away.  The only acceptable answer is to start over from square one.  Keep the beginner's mind no matter what special belt you wear.


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## BushidoUK (May 26, 2004)

i agree with the above post. Unless you have been invited to teach at another style or attend a seminar type of cross training meeting, then you should not wear your own belt.

If another stylist (Say a 1st Dan) came to train at our club. He would be expected to start as a white belt. The only deference we would show would be that so long as he achieved our own standards and peculiarities, he would be able to double grade. i.e. jump 2 kyu belt levels at each grading.
But he would be expected to perform both belt levels.


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## rompida (May 26, 2004)

I agree.  Wearing your previous style's belt is a matter of ego, which you should leave at the door anyway.  You're starting a new style - you start with a white belt.  

After getting a black belt, it was necessary for me to move across the state.  When I went to train in the new style, I too had a little ego come out.  I asked if I could cross train quickly to achieve my ranking.  His reply was that my previous skills will help me climb in rank more quickly, but that I must start as a white belt.  He then said, "You must empty your cup before you can fill it again."

I got over it quickly, and now, years later I see the wisdom in his words.


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## hippy (Jul 23, 2004)

how is allowing someone to double grade because they are a dan grade of another style, any different a privilege than allowing them to wear their black belt.

if u have graded to black belt level in a recognised association, u should be allowed to wear it in similar styled clubs.
ie) a black belt in shotokan should be allowed to wear a black belt whilst training in a wado-ryu club, as they are similar, both are styles of karate. they should however, wear the appropriate belt during gradings.

but there is no point a shotokan dan grade wearing a black belt if training at a kung-fu class.

in the outside world, if u attained a doctorite in phsics, u are allowed to put Dr in front of your name when filling out any document. if u then went on to learn sociology, u are not asked to stop calling yourself Dr because it is in a different topic.

it is nice to see a dan grade humbly put on a white belt voluntarily when visiting another styled club, but it should never be demanded of them.

a few years ago, i had an unfortunate meeting with a goju-ryu '2nd dan',
for 2 years i allowed them to train in my club, and start grading again from white belt, although still allowing them to train wearing their black belt.
this person had not trained in 5 years in goju ryu, so i didn't expect to see a great deal of flexibility or crispness in techniques. as goju-ryu is a very different style of karate, i accepted this person would not now our katas. however, alarm bells did ring in my head, when i was having to teach all basic techniques that are on the 8th kyu grading (front punch, reverse punch, front kick, roundhouse kick, side snap kick). it was also quite worrying, when after 3 months of doing these techniques, they were still no better than the first night they learned them.
now, i believe anyone who attains a 2nd dan in any style, no matter the length of time not training, after 6 months of training twice a week for 2 hrs, some memories will have been jogged. something would be remembered.
but no.

each time they went for their gradings, this person got the lowest possible marks to still pass, but back at the club, there was no desire to improve on the skill. after nearly 2 years of training, this person had reached a skill level that i expected at 6th kyu, but they were now 4th kyu. several times during training, this person had demostrated little outbursts against other students, that no dan grade would ever do. this was the last straw, i removed them from my club, and demanded them to bring me details of where they had previously graded, and under what association, or they no longer had the right to wear their black belt in my club again.
the next training session, this person turned up rather sheepishly at my club, ready armed with an appology, but no proof of her rank. no certificate, no licence, no details of association. just the name of the club that shut down 5 years before they came to mine.
unlucky ! i happened to know this club, and its old instructer, who had 'retired' from martial arts, a bit of an oddball he was, but he did have many pearls of wisdom for karate. i rang him up, and wasn't too supprise that he did remeber my problem student. her personality was unforgetable. he gave me the details of the association he was with. i rang them, and this lady had only ever attained 4th kyu with them in goju-ryu. i then rang several other karate associations in the uk. no-one had heard of her.
suffice to say, she was removed from the club !

i would like to add that i, in no way, think that goju-ryu karateka are crap, because of my run-in with this fake. i respect their ability and style.
i still will allow people to wear a black belt from another style whilst training with me, but i will revoke this if they show signs of not being of dan-grade quality / knowledge.

if u ever have to teach another black-belt in a similar style, more than u would a beginner, ring the alarm bells.


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 23, 2004)

I earned my rank a long time ago,it doesn't matter to me anymore,I'd rather train in non MA gear these days and earn the respect of others on a daily basis.


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## Martial Tucker (Jul 23, 2004)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> If you are visiting a school, wear a white belt.
> 
> If you are invited to teach at another school, you wear what you earned in the style whose techniques you are teaching.
> 
> ...


I COMPLETELY agree with this. IMHO, to do anything less would be arrogant. I think part of the biggest problem in martial arts unity today is people being too caught up in what they have done in the past, and what they THINK they know, and their status vs. someone else, as opposed to going in wearing a white belt as a gesture that "your cup is empty", and you are there to learn what they know, not show off what you think you may know.


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## jakmak52 (Oct 14, 2004)

I'm wondering if he's referring to *homolagation (to sanction, confirm or to allow)?*


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## Patrick Skerry (Oct 24, 2004)

Yes, this is a parody of a famous Zen koan where one is meant to contemplate a semantic contradiction to the exclusion of all else: Such as the tallest girl in class was shorter than all the rest; the fastest runner in the race was slower than all the rest, One step forward - and two steps back.  It is a variation of Zeno's paradox.  

In Zen, the koan is a mind/meditative exercise to a quicker path to enlightenment than spending decades studying the sutras.  One is supposed to solve the paradox in terms of Buddhist philosophy and theology.

So it simply means the more you have learned, the more you need to learn.



			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> One step closer than yesterday and one step further away from understanding.
> 
> (I wrote this after the $1 beer happy hour at me local......so if you understand it shoot me an email)


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## RRouuselot (Oct 26, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> .............
> So it simply means the more you have learned, the more you need to learn.




Not really.
It means the more I learn the more I figure that I didn't know so much before and that I there is always more to learn no matter how good I get.


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## sifu Adams (Oct 26, 2004)

I have in many accations told my students that geting your black belt is like just getting out of high school.  Now it's time for collage.  If you go 3 years as a Math major then go to english you will have to start over.  that dose not mean you forget the math. you just start learning english.  If you are starting out in a new system where the white belt.


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## Vadim (Nov 1, 2004)

If I were to study a different style at a new school I would definitely go back to wearing a white belt. I would want to show my fellow practitioners and instructors that I am open to learning new concepts and approach my training with a "beginner's mind" absorbing the knowledge and skill that is being presented.

-Vadim


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## TimoS (Nov 2, 2004)

With us this actually very simple as at our club we only have two colours for belt: white and black. I train (under same sensei) at two separate clubs and at both the rule is you wear either white or black and during kata training even the black belts (and often sensei himself also) usually wear white. Sensei has also said that if he is teaching to people from a different style, he usually demands that everybody wears white because they are all beginners in the style he teaches


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## RRouuselot (Nov 2, 2004)

I let people wear whatever belt they earned in another style. I am not such a budo snob to say they didn't earn that rank and can't wear it......Who am I to say they didn't earn that rank....... it's not rank in what I teach but they earned it none the less. 
However, having said that I wouldn't wear my karate rank in a judo or something outside karate.

There is an infamous dan factory group (Kokusai Budoin) in Tokyo that I talked with one time and briefly considered joining. The group was headed by a guy named Saito or Sato who was a Judo teacher. He told me that if I joined his organization I would have to be "graded" by their members (mostly judo folks with one karate guy) . He said it was because we gaijin are to "over ranked"...I think I had trained about 18 years and was a mere 3rd dan  ....I asked him what he knew about karate and what made him think he had the right to grade me. H esaid their karate "master" knew a lot and would be the deciding factor. I talked to the "master" and asked him if he knew any tuite and so forth found in kata, he didn't even know what tuite was........I told Saito or Sato that maybe I should grade their "master" since he my be a good "kata dancer" but didn't know as much as my kyu ranks about technique. Needless to say he was ticked off.....not that I cared. 

I also had a Japanese 6th dan from Shotokai come to my dojo and claim he knew nothing and said he hadn't trained in many years since he was a kid. However it was obvious he did .....by looking at his knuckles you could see he was a big fan of the makiwara. 
He got bounced around my dojo for a month or so by myself and my by some kyu ranks. On one weekend I happen to walk by a karate school and guess who was teaching......."Mr. I haven't trained in a long time" 6th dan!.......and he was teaching what I had showed him and not Shotkai stuff....and teaching it wrong!
I went into the dojo and told him infront of his class if he was going to teach what I taught him at least do it right. So I ended up teaching his class while he stood off to the side and tried to keep up.
People that try to BS me like that quickly lose my respect. 
I expect people to come in and train hard, ask question if they don't understand. 
There is a guy on this BB that comes to my dojo when he can. I respect the way he trains....comes in, works hard, doesn't moan or groan, and let's his technique do his talking...........as it should be.


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## drunken mistress (Dec 2, 2004)

My son and I have started again in Kyokushinkai after studying 15 months of other styles of karate. We were asked to start again as white belts but also told we would probably progress quicker in the early belts as the result of having done something similar before. That seems pretty fair to me.


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## still learning (Dec 5, 2004)

Hello, Each school has there own way of doing things and it is up to the teacher to decide the belt rank. I agree if the systems are about the same,including the kata's, your teachers choice.
 But if is is total new and different than you should start at the begining belt level. It is only a color, to signal the level of the training material. Not your skills. 

 Joe Lewis was a train fighter before going to Okinawa to learn Karate over there. He started as a white belt and in 9 months got promoted to Black belt. He keep on busting up the other black belts. Teacher said you are a BB....Aloha


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## RRouuselot (Dec 5, 2004)

still learning said:
			
		

> Joe Lewis was a train fighter before going to Okinawa to learn Karate over there. He started as a white belt and in 9 months got promoted to Black belt. He keep on busting up the other black belts. Teacher said you are a BB....Aloha


 
   Uhyou have no idea what you are talking about. Joe Lewis was a student of my teacher in Okinawaand what you just wrote is basically WRONG


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