# Traditional forms



## Runs With Fire (Dec 3, 2014)

Speaking about forms that could be considered "traditional" for "traditional" Tung Soo Do, what is it about these forms that you like ,or perhaps, dislike?   ...such as Na Hanji?


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## dancingalone (Dec 5, 2014)

You mean out of the Okinawan/Japanese heritage forms practiced within TSD?  There's nothing I dislike about them, at least on a tangible level.  

I do think it is peculiar that Jion is considered a master level pattern (5th dan?!) by some TSD federations.  Also don't like the fabrication held by some that GM Hwang Kee created the Kicho/Taikyoku kata but that's really neither here nor there.


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## Runs With Fire (Dec 7, 2014)

dancingalone said:


> You mean out of the Okinawan/Japanese heritage forms practiced within TSD? There's nothing I dislike about them, at least on a tangible level.



I suppose that is what I mean.     On a second note, with Na Hanji, am I the only one who thinks it resembles a weapon form?


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## reeskm (Dec 9, 2014)

Runs With Fire said:


> I suppose that is what I mean.     On a second note, with Na Hanji, am I the only one who thinks it resembles a weapon form?



No, you're not the only one. You can imagine yourself as a rider on horseback, with a pole arm or sword in one hand. Especially the 3rd (Sam Dan) Naihanchi Hyung.

However, whether this is accurate or not is up for debate.

Forms are awesome. Practice them daily. Don't be afraid to look to to other schools or styles for insight, as the best part about Tang Soo Do is that we share a common heritage with both Okinawan and mainland-Japanese Karate styles. You have so many options and different viewpoints on kata and hyung these days that you should never get bored! And it's all available at a click of the mouse.


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2014)

I find the TSD forms very much simplified from the Wado Ryu ones. I know them both very well and much prefer the Wado ones I'm afraid. It's as if someone has taken all the harder bits out to make up the TSD ones which to my mind is a shame.


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2014)

It is rather common for students to experiment running Naihanchi with a pair of sai.


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## Runs With Fire (Dec 9, 2014)

reeskm said:


> However, whether this is accurate or not is up for debate.


  So I have found out.


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2014)

Naihanchi is said to be the 'perfect kata' containing everything you need to know in karate.
Naihanchi - Karate s Most Deadly Kata By Iain Abernethy


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## reeskm (Dec 9, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> I find the TSD forms very much simplified from the Wado Ryu ones. I know them both very well and much prefer the Wado ones I'm afraid. It's as if someone has taken all the harder bits out to make up the TSD ones which to my mind is a shame.



I tend to keep a very open mind these days. I know for a fact Wado-ryu's genesis comes from roughly the same time period of Karate spreading to Korea. 
In fact, I can't see any major "hardness" or change in this form from what I do. The differences are only minor.

But that's the beauty of forms. You can experiment, change and adapt them for practical applications, competition, self study, callisthenics. They're fantastic as a learning and study tool at the dojo.


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## reeskm (Dec 9, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Naihanchi is said to be the 'perfect kata' containing everything you need to know in karate.
> Naihanchi - Karate s Most Deadly Kata By Iain Abernethy


I am familiar with this. I'm a big fan of what Abernethy is promoting and his specialty on applications.

Personally though, I keep this in perspective as self defense applications from kata are only one aspect of the martial arts.


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2014)

reeskm said:


> I tend to keep a very open mind these days. I know for a fact Wado-ryu's genesis comes from roughly the same time period of Karate spreading to Korea.
> In fact, I can't see any major "hardness" or change in this form from what I do. The differences are only minor.
> 
> But that's the beauty of forms. You can experiment, change and adapt them for practical applications, competition, self study, callisthenics. They're fantastic as a learning and study tool at the dojo.



I have Dan grades in both Wado and TSD and I can see quite big differences between the two styles katas. As I said it's as if someone has watched the karate katas and decided to take many of the different stances out, remove some of the techniques and generally make them easier to do. I think it's such a shame because it's almost short changing people. If the techniques were changed I would have understood but to take so many out without replacing them I cannot.


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## K-man (Dec 9, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Naihanchi is said to be the 'perfect kata' containing everything you need to know in karate.
> Naihanchi - Karate s Most Deadly Kata By Iain Abernethy


It's the one Dillman was teaching bunkai for about 20 years ago too.


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> As I said it's as if someone has watched the karate katas and decided to take many of the different stances out, remove some of the techniques and generally make them easier to do.



Which forms are you referring to, out of curiosity?  I'm asking because the TSD patterns I've seen are not necessarily easier to do - they are altered yes, but they tend to have extra kicks and such which make the form a more athletic sequence.

Like this Bassai...Probably a more demanding form physically than the Shotokan or Wado versions IMO.


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2014)

dancingalone said:


> Which forms are you referring to, out of curiosity?  I'm asking because the TSD patterns I've seen are not necessarily easier to do - they are altered yes, but they tend to have extra kicks and such which make the form a more athletic sequence.
> 
> Like this Bassai...Probably a more demanding form physically than the Shotokan or Wado versions IMO.




All of them and I don't mean that the Wado ones are more demanding physically, I don't believe that's the point of kata. In the TSD ones all the different stances have been taken out, the complexity has been taken out in favour of putting kicks and unnecessary movement in while simplifying it. The Bassai above in the very first movements, may be 'more athletic' but it loses the point because to make it 'Korean' and to change it from the karate kata is has had these bits added. Kata isn't about who can be more athletic that's for 'performance' to make it look good, kata should be about functionality and that I never felt the TSD hyungs have because of this need to have it different from the Japanese. All political reasons I know and understandable from the Korean's point of view.

Reeskm, what time are you talking about karate spreading to Korea? I ask because you will read in TSD books that it has been around for a couple of thousand years in Korea which of course it hasn't but one of the tenets of TSD is that it is far older than any other style.


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## dancingalone (Dec 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> All of them and I don't mean that the Wado ones are more demanding physically, I don't believe that's the point of kata. In the TSD ones all the *different stances have been taken out,* *the complexity has been taken out in favour of putting kicks and unnecessary movement in while simplifying it*. The Bassai above in the very first movements, may be 'more athletic' but it loses the point because to make it 'Korean' and to change it from the karate kata is has had these bits added. Kata isn't about who can be more athletic that's for 'performance' to make it look good, kata should be about functionality and that I never felt the TSD hyungs have because of this need to have it different from the Japanese. All political reasons I know and understandable from the Korean's point of view.



Well that's the thing.  I don't substantively see any stances have been removed, when you compare Shotokan kata to TSD hyung.  The Koreans do that foot-raised thing on their back stance, almost so it functions like a cat stance, but the embryonic purpose of zenkutsu-dachi, kokutsu-dachi, and kiba-dachi are all there in the beginner forms.

If you're referring to practicing forms with purpose, I'd agree that Wado and Tang Soo Do people probably have very different ideas about what the kata is teaching.  Any points made about complexity lost or gained probably fall into this bucket rather than the pure physical choreography itself, as different though valid interpretations can be drawn from the Korean alterations if one is so minded.


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## reeskm (Dec 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> All of them and I don't mean that the Wado ones are more demanding physically, I don't believe that's the point of kata. In the TSD ones all the different stances have been taken out, the complexity has been taken out in favour of putting kicks and unnecessary movement in while simplifying it. The Bassai above in the very first movements, may be 'more athletic' but it loses the point because to make it 'Korean' and to change it from the karate kata is has had these bits added. Kata isn't about who can be more athletic that's for 'performance' to make it look good, kata should be about functionality and that I never felt the TSD hyungs have because of this need to have it different from the Japanese. All political reasons I know and understandable from the Korean's point of view.
> 
> Reeskm, what time are you talking about karate spreading to Korea? I ask because you will read in TSD books that it has been around for a couple of thousand years in Korea which of course it hasn't but one of the tenets of TSD is that it is far older than any other style.



First, realize I am talking about tangsoodo in general - which in my opinion refers to all kwans established in the 44-61 period. I would also simplify things and include kongsoodo, simply because both are literal translations of "karate" - either "tode" or "karate". (During the 55-61 period more and more of them changed their name to taekwondo, which is another matter)

Regarding Wado and TSD and history, I have long been looking for zainichi Korean students in Wado. So far I have not found any, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were ea couple links. I am aware of Ohtsuka's split from the Shotokai, and am very interested in these events. I have also been interested in one and three step sparring, seated sparring and other methods that are common to both Tangsoodo, Shotokai and Wado. I am also very familiar that there were many koreans with strong links to judo, juijitsu and aikido. Since Ohtsuka famously split because he was teaching these techniques in University research clubs in Japan, and I know the Koreans were students in University karate clubs, there is a link here.

Second, I do not believe there are any "tenets" regarding a 2000 year old history in Tangsoodo. I personally reject them and think it does a disservice to the Korean arts. I think the truth is better than the fiction. My personal opinion is that these mythical stories were created later on as time went on in Korea. As Korea gained its independence in 1945, and the strong connection of Koreans teaching in Korea and Japan that were linked to the Mindan and Independance Movement in the 30s-1945, this started an atmosphere where they seem to generally have decided to re-write history as a form of political revisionism.

I could go on, but the point is I am by no means a typical TSD student. I keep the TSD name on purpose, because my teacher taught me, and I believe, that the roots of all Korean martial arts that we have today are Karate.

Oh, and I can't find any good material on the forms that were taught in Korea in 1944-1961. The Moodukkwan material is the easiest to get ahold of, and I have some early Chungdokwan material. However, from what I have been able to gather, is that in the early years there were many many variations from many different influences. Many students appeared to have trained in Guoshu-system kungfu in Manchuria, and even other parts of China. What I know today is that what I do is virtually identical in every way, to 1940-1950 era University club Shotokan Karate, with some strange changes and abnormalities that suggest a Renbukai (Kanbukan), Goju, Wado, Shitokai and Shudokan influence. Wado is well known to have included varying stances as this was a big teaching of Ohtsuka. I also know of this, because my teacher taught me many tricks and how stances give you an secret edge with leverage, throws, sweeps, locks, etc. But I do the TSD forms as you probably know them, because you are always supposed to not change them in your own style.

See this reference for the best overview of what I am trying to convey. (Martial Arts of the World, Vol 1, Green & Svinth, pp. 201-203)

It takes a really open mind, and I'm sure some in the Tangsoodo world would deeply dispute or treat me like a heritic. I don't care because I don't belong to any of the big modern MooDukKwan offshoot organizations. 

Compare the Wado-kai, Renbukai, Shitokai, Goju and Shudokan logos to that of every Kwan in Korean prior to the Korean war. Every one of them includes a fist. Some, even include the laurel leaves. There are even more similarities. Then start comparing them to awards and decorations of Japan and Korea, money and currency from 1910-1950 from Japan and Korea. Find decorations and awards of the South Manchurian Railway Co. Think outside the box.

I do not believe in coincidence.


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2014)

Only a short reply at the moment has it's past midnight and I'm off to bed, a better answer tomorrow! It was just your comment about one and three step being in common with Wado Ryu, we don't do them, nor do we do seated sparring, is that from Judo?. Also do you mean Shotokan or Shotokai?


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## reeskm (Dec 11, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Only a short reply at the moment has it's past midnight and I'm off to bed, a better answer tomorrow! It was just your comment about one and three step being in common with Wado Ryu, we don't do them, nor do we do seated sparring, is that from Judo?. Also do you mean Shotokan or Shotokai?



Yeah, I tend to write a lot. Simple is better?

Seated sparring has it's origins in jujutsu. Judo and Aikido are offshoots of various jujitsu schools. It comes from a period where you were likely to be attacked while sitting down, especially when your long sword was left behind in official buildings and you only had a short sword, placed on your right where it was hard to draw with your right hand. These techniques were famously featured in early Karate instruction manuals from the 20's and 30's, and also appear in Hwang Kee's first published books in Korea.

I'm surprised that you don't do one step sparring in Wado, especially seated sparring. Judging by what I have found in old books and on the internet about Wado, it is it's foundation. You said you have a harder art and more effective stances, and stance changes allow you to apply softer non-hard striking techniques. (Jujutsu style). Further, Wado is classified as a "primarily soft" Karate on Wikipedia.

From what I know, Hinori Ohtsuka was trained in many martial arts, including Japanese ju-jutsu and Karate under Funakoshi. He was one of Funakoshis very first black belts. At the time that Ohtsuka left the Shotokai and created Wado, because he fundamentally disagreed with Funakoshi, who at the time did not agree that sparring or jujutsu techniques had any place in his system and style. This changed later on.

I deliberately used Shotokai as at the time, in the 30's and 40's, Shotokai was the association created by Funakoshi and his followers, whereas the Shotokan was a dojo that was bombed during the war and no longer exists.

Today, most people use Shotokan to refer to the style Funakoshi founded, but this is actually incorrect.

Hopefully some others with more knowledge in the area can comment.


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## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2014)

reeskm said:


> Yeah, I tend to write a lot. Simple is better?
> 
> Seated sparring has it's origins in jujutsu. Judo and Aikido are offshoots of various jujitsu schools. It comes from a period where you were likely to be attacked while sitting down, especially when your long sword was left behind in official buildings and you only had a short sword, placed on your right where it was hard to draw with your right hand. These techniques were famously featured in early Karate instruction manuals from the 20's and 30's, and also appear in Hwang Kee's first published books in Korea.
> 
> ...



I don't think that's what I said, I'm sure I didn't say  that!  I'm not sure what a 'non hard striking technique is'. 
I'll have to think about this.


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## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2014)

This is the typical Wado Ryu syllabus, we don't do one or three step sparring, not sure if it's every been done to be honest. Wado Ryu Karate Club - Grading Syllabus


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## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2014)

dancingalone said:


> Well that's the thing.  I don't substantively see any stances have been removed, when you compare Shotokan kata to TSD hyung.  The Koreans do that foot-raised thing on their back stance, almost so it functions like a cat stance, but the embryonic purpose of zenkutsu-dachi, kokutsu-dachi, and kiba-dachi are all there in the beginner forms.
> 
> If you're referring to practicing forms with purpose, I'd agree that Wado and Tang Soo Do people probably have very different ideas about what the kata is teaching.  Any points made about complexity lost or gained probably fall into this bucket rather than the pure physical choreography itself, as different though valid interpretations can be drawn from the Korean alterations if one is so minded.




I don't know Shotokan katas though so I'm afraid I can't compare them, (perhaps Shotokan have also taken them out?) Mine are Wado Ryu. The stances taken out of TSD are Nekiashi, Sanchin, Seishan, Naihanchi, Zenkutsu, Chidora, Cyakuzuki and Kokutsu. those are just off the top of my head. I know we have far more stances as a whole in Wado than most other styles.


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## reeskm (Dec 12, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> I find the TSD forms very much simplified from the Wado Ryu ones. I know them both very well and much prefer the Wado ones I'm afraid. *It's as if someone has taken all the harder bits out* to make up the TSD ones which to my mind is a shame.


Did I read too far into this comment you made?

Also, I think the Wado syllabus must have been changed since the early days.
But, it's still in your syllabus. Your syllabus has "sanbon kumite". In korean, we call this "sam soo sik daeryun". However, I did notice your syllabus does not seem to have "ippon kumite" or "ill soo sik daeryun".

_Juniors grading for 2nd Dan may choose as well only one Ohyo Gumite, Kihon Gumite, Kata, and Tanto Dori._

Also, I'm pleased to see the mention of Tanto Dori in your syllabus. This is the knife sets I was referring to before. Also, incredibly, we require 2nd dan candidates in our school to demonstrate self defense against a knife. It's good to see things don't change that much!


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## Tez3 (Dec 12, 2014)

reeskm said:


> Did I read too far into this comment you made?
> 
> Also, I think the Wado syllabus must have been changed since the early days.
> But, it's still in your syllabus. Your syllabus has "sanbon kumite". In korean, we call this "sam soo sik daeryun". However, I did notice your syllabus does not seem to have "ippon kumite" or "ill soo sik daeryun".
> ...




Sorry, I think perhaps I should have said 'more difficult and varied' bits rather than harder which has a different meaning in martial arts from difficult. We have never done one and three step in our Wado. I've only ever done it in TSD. We don't do Tanto Dori either.
Things do change in Wado Ryu because Ohtsuka Sensei said nothing is written in stone and it changes, people do feel free to change things. I think too that things may be different because when Ohtsuka Sensei stood down as the head of Wado Ryu there was a big split in UK Wado leading to three separate organisations each with their own views.
The syllabus I quoted is a typical one for here but not necessarily what everyone does, we do the Ohyo Gumite, sets of attacks and defences ( not three step though) and we do free sparring. Kata of course but no weapons.


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## reeskm (Dec 12, 2014)

OK! Well thanks for the info Tez3.

I see what you are saying - Hwang Kee also said he never wanted things to be set in stone and that the art should evolve. I think you and I both know that splits in organizations and changes to curriculum are nothing new at all and pretty universal!


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## Runs With Fire (Dec 13, 2014)

reeskm said:


> No, you're not the only one. You can imagine yourself as a rider on horseback, with a pole arm or sword in one hand. Especially the 3rd (Sam Dan) Naihanchi Hyung.


   On the topic of Na Hanji,  I am convinced it was a weapons form or else it was designed to develop movement patterns for a heavy, single-handed weapon such as an axe, flail, mace, or heavy sword.
  If indeed it was either originally preformed on horseback, or at least to mimic it so as to possibly prepare trainees to function on a horse before actually mounting,  it makes perfect sense to run through it open handed; So that your body can learn the motions.  dismounted, there isn't room to swing a weapon the same way; The
       I'm no cowboy but I have spent a fair amount of time on horses. the footwork is essentially the same as riding.  A friend of mine is a ridding instructor. She also studies Tung Soo Do and agrees on the horseback theory.


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## Runs With Fire (Dec 13, 2014)

* Open to interpretation


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## K-man (Dec 14, 2014)

Well if Naihanchi was designed to fight on horseback I'd love to see how that works with a predetermined response. 

It depends on what you understand kata to be but you could be sure there wouldn't be a lot of karateka riding around Shuri on horses when it was being taught by Matsumura back in the 1850s.


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2014)

Absolutely no way Naihanchi is for weapons or horse riding ( whatever the stance) why would it be? If it were for practicing on horseback then one would be on a horse! I spent a lot of time riding, always have done and there's no way that the footwork is the same as riding, either European style or Japanese and it certainly wouldn't be American west style. I think it's being over imaginative and wanting to see something in it that's not there, nice try though.
Naihanchi - Karate s Most Deadly Kata Iain Abernethy


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## Runs With Fire (Dec 24, 2014)

could be


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