# WTF vs ATA



## Lars5277 (Sep 5, 2006)

As I stated earlier I'm new.  So I hope this is the proper place to post.  

I took WTF as a kid and loved it, but had to leave due to money reasons.  My family and I are currently enrolled in ATA.   We don't have many choices up here in Minot North Dakota so I have 4 styles to choose from.  
We have ATA and WTF (TKD).  We have a guy who has a "Karate" school who claims he really teaches a style of Kung Fu called Sou Shou (spelling?), and a Hapkido school.  

Hapkido is not an option for my family, kids are young and the wife has had brain surgery recently.  The "Karate" school set me off by the owners demeanor and confusion over what he claims to teach.  Karate and Kungfu are two very different styles.  ATA and WTF seem the only two viable options left.  

I am wondering who has had experience in each, and can you help me with me delima between WTF and ATA.  

ATA seems watered down and very weak.  They have a 2 yr black belt program which bothers me.  I am an old school kind of guy.  When my family puts on a black belt I would expect them to defend themselves properly and effectively.  I am not expecting them to be stone killers.  

I am in the military and believe "you train like you fight".  ATA seems to be soft and cuddly not wanting to offend.  Martial arts means a "way of fighting" the last time I checked.    I am not trying to come off like some sort of brawler, I am just looking for information and knowledge.  I hope all this makes sense.

Thank you,
Lars


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## zDom (Sep 5, 2006)

Um.... send the wife and kids to WTF school while you go to hapkido?


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## Lars5277 (Sep 5, 2006)

I decided to take this on as a family thing.  We shoot guns together, raise reptiles together, we will practice together.  I also want to be involved in what they learn.  I believe TKD has a lot of strong points.  I also believe it has a lot of weak points too.  This in my opinion is a great way to spend time as a family.  It beats watching a movie together.


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## zDom (Sep 5, 2006)

Yes a family activity is a good thing, a good choice. I guess just going to have to base your decision on which school best meets your family's needs, eh?


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## Lars5277 (Sep 6, 2006)

Zdom,
As a Hapkido instructor your self.  I have a hard question you may or may not be able to answer.  My kids ages are 6, 9, and 10, are they of suitable ages for Hapkido?  My wifes surgery means she can never really take a hard blow to the lower neck area, would she be suitable for Hapkido?  I know a lot of this depends on the individual instructor, but could I get your advice.  I am open to almost any martial art. 

I do see TKD as leaving it self wide open to attacks as a whole.  I also see the very powerful and suprising nature of it's front leg kicks if applied properly.  Is Hapkido a "trapping" art by any means.  I know there are 4 ranges of fighting, most people only know 3 of them.  I have a fascination with the trapping aspects of any martial art.


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## ArmorOfGod (Sep 6, 2006)

If you go to the ATA school, go ahead and pull your wallet out now.  It won't have time to be in your back pocket much.
;-)

AoG


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## ArmorOfGod (Sep 6, 2006)

By the way, have you called the local ymca's and community centers to see what they offer?
In my area, we have about a dozen commercial schools, but if you call around, there are two ymca schools and 12 more community center schools.  Several of those community center schools have been there for over ten years and many of those are excellent.

AoG


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 6, 2006)

I think that you and your kid's would be able to practice Hapkido with no problems.  Depending on your wife's surgery/condition it may be more difficult for her because of the throws and breakfalls involved.  However, I would talk to the Hapkido instructor at least to get his/her idea.  Hapkido is a great martial art and you and your family might really enjoy it.  Good luck.


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## terryl965 (Sep 6, 2006)

I would recommend going to the WTF school al though mainly sport they will not break you financially ATA if you use the bathroom they charge.
Terry


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 6, 2006)

terryl965 said:


> I would recommend going to the WTF school al though mainly sport they will not break you financially ATA if you use the bathroom they charge.
> Terry


 
I would recommend the WTF Dojo as well.  However, check each school out including the Kung Fu and see what will be best for you and your family.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 6, 2006)

Lars5277 said:


> We have a guy who has a "Karate" school who claims he really teaches a style of Kung Fu called Sou Shou ... The "Karate" school set me off by the owners demeanor and confusion over what he claims to teach. Karate and Kungfu are two very different styles.


 
The particular stye of Karate I take, Kosutemi Seieikan, has a certain amount of CMA in the techniques taught; although, it is certainly not a CMA style.  Also, the organization has 'kung fu' schools in it, as well.

It's, perhaps, more reasonable to check each of the schools out before coming to a decision.  Most instructors will encourage an introductory lesson, just to get a feel for what's going on there.


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## zDom (Sep 6, 2006)

Lars5277 said:


> My kids ages are 6, 9, and 10, are they of suitable ages for Hapkido?  My wifes surgery means she can never really take a hard blow to the lower neck area, would she be suitable for Hapkido?  I know a lot of this depends on the individual instructor, but could I get your advice.  I am open to almost any martial art.
> 
> I do see TKD as leaving it self wide open to attacks as a whole.  I also see the very powerful and suprising nature of it's front leg kicks if applied properly.  Is Hapkido a "trapping" art by any means.  I know there are 4 ranges of fighting, most people only know 3 of them.  I have a fascination with the trapping aspects of any martial art.




There is a lot of variation in hapkido styles and curriculums. Our organization, for example, has a "pre-Hapkido" curriculum for those under age 16, as we believe it best to not do repetitive wrist lockings until age 16.

A lower neck injury may indeed be something that would prevent your wife from safely breakfalling, but again: check with the instructor. He/she may be able to offer alternative exercises or a more individualized curriculum that works around her injury.

I would describe HKD more as a "locking" art than "trapping," but there are techniques that are applicable for all ranges of combat.

Being open to any martial art is good. Personally, if I moved from my area to somewhere else, the type of martial art would be secondary to picking the best instructor/curriculum in the area.

I was fortunate to find a really great taekwondo school, but then I have also seen a lot of TKD McDojangs.

As I consider choosing a martial are school a "long term investment," it would definately be worth your time to delay your choice by a week or two and sit and watch a class at each of the schools in your area.


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## Bigshadow (Sep 6, 2006)

If you are set on TKD, definitely go WTF.  My son was in ATA for about a year and a half.  I DO NOT recommend ATA.


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## TX_BB (Sep 6, 2006)

I've been associated with the WTF for nearly 30 years even though I've practiced at both ITF and ATA schools around the US. To get to the point there are good and bad schools in all organizations. The WTF schools are plentifull and because of the sporting aspect will tend to be more athletic (ie. more running, and conditioning).

When I've exposed ATA or ITF competitive students to WTF sparring they have always gotten excited.


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## SFC JeffJ (Sep 6, 2006)

ATA used to be a pretty good organization until they decided money was more important than quality instruction.

It's also very expensive as others have pointed out

I'm sure there are a few good ATA schools out there, but I haven't seen any in years.

Jeff


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## TraditionalTKD (Sep 6, 2006)

I would also recommend the WTF school. However, you should also find out by attending classes what it emphasizes. I've seen WTF schools that focused more on sparring and the sport aspect of Tae Kwon Do and tried to pass off sparring as self defense. Try to find a WTF school that still teaches traditional technique. They do exist. If possible, do some research on the Instructor to make sure his credentials are legit. Some Instructors claim high Dan when their true rank is much lower.
I've met very few people who had good experiences with the ATA. It seems to be just a money-making organization. More so now that Lee is deceased.


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## fireman00 (Sep 6, 2006)

stay away from ANY school that offers a black belt in 2 years.


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## matt.m (Sep 6, 2006)

You know there has been a lot of information given.  I have seen few good schools to the mcdojo buy your blackbelt factories.  The teacher/cirriculum is much more important.

Since you are in the military, I was in the Marine Corps from 92-97.  I understand what you are talking about when you have concern about 'actual fights' etc.  However, if you find a good tae kwon do school it would be beneficial on many areas. 

I have found that a lot of people don't know how to put together that the natural progression of a cirriculum are the basics-> One step sparring -> poomse, are all the building blocks of proper self defense and fighting.

If you can't do a well chambered snap kick and a good reverse punch why try anything else?

Think about the bayonet course and it's application or the firing range for that matter.  Would you be a good shot without snapping in for countless hours.  The answer is most assuredly no.

Tae Kwon Do is a fabulous art, you just have to understand how everything gets put together to make it one.

I am unfamiliar with the ATA, however I recommend a WTF school readily.  I am not big on predetermined contracts over a one year period.  I don't like contracts anyway, but a one year is the least I would agree to if I had to.


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## Kacey (Sep 6, 2006)

Visit the schools, talk to the instructors, and then decide.  There are good and bad schools in all organizations, and you won't know about a particular class until you visit.  Look here for a list of ideas that will help you choose a school.


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## Last Fearner (Sep 7, 2006)

I won't bash an organization here, but I have had experience with both.  I was an instructor in the ATA in the late 70s, and was very close to the top people (including GM H.U. Lee).  However, much has changed in that organization.  It is mostly an internal organization that has no connection to Korean authorization (GM Lee broke those ties years ago).  They keep to themselves, are family oriented but do tend to have unconventional methods of ranks, form patterns, and business practices.  I tend to be "old school" and it wouldn't be my choice.

Judging by your initial post here, I would say that you have a good assessment of the situation.  You should probably visit each school to get a better idea of the individual instructors skill, understanding, and attitude, but I believe would make a good choice on a larger scale of options with the WTF school.

As for your wife's training, she will need to be careful no matter where you go.  The instructor should be made aware of it right away, and she should not be pressured into doing anything that would risk further injury.  Even in a Taekwondo (or Hapkido) school, the curriculum can be taylor made to teach her what she needs for exercise and self defense without having to do everything that the art offers.

By the way, you mentioned the "4 ranges of fighting."  I would be curious as to what your experience has taught you here.  I usually divide categories down to a base of 3, but it is often a matter of restructuring the terminology and classifications, rather than leaving something out.

CM D.J. Eisenhart


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## phlaw (Sep 7, 2006)

I would definately recommend the WTF school, I have never been impressed with any ATA school.

Depending on the instructor, some WTF schools are very traditional and not as much sport.  I train WTF in Fargo.

Do you know who the instructor is?


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## tkd_jen (Sep 9, 2006)

Minot huh? Alright another fellow North Dakotan on the board! Greetings from Fargo!

I am sure you have or will visit each school. Usually you cacn tell pretty quick after a school visit where you belong. Most schools worth their weight will let you try classes free for "x" number of classes. You could do it as a family or you could go yourself and decide (sometimes schools focus on "fun" for the kids instead of training so the kids want to go to school A, but school B may be a better school training wise). 

Congrats on your decision to train. We have a couple of families at our school and they are awesome to work with. Good luck and keep us posted!


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## LoriH (Jun 18, 2022)

Lars5277 said:


> As I stated earlier I'm new.  So I hope this is the proper place to post.
> 
> I took WTF as a kid and loved it, but had to leave due to money reasons.  My family and I are currently enrolled in ATA.   We don't have many choices up here in Minot North Dakota so I have 4 styles to choose from.
> We have ATA and WTF (TKD).  We have a guy who has a "Karate" school who claims he really teaches a style of Kung Fu called Sou Shou (spelling?), and a Hapkido school.
> ...


ATA has negative and positive. Test- annoy! When we are in Black Belt Degrees 2. 2 years. Have to take test each 2 months - pay for test. From White stripe, orange, yellow, camo, green, blue, brown, red, silver and black stripe then move to Degrees 3. I hate weapons. Weapons have variety forms. Test for degrees 4 that you have to go National to out state for mid-test and test. I have been at WTF many years. I tried ATA. They are so friendly. I love Combat sparring. I’m not going take degrees 4.


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## J. Pickard (Jun 20, 2022)

Lars5277 said:


> ATA seems watered down and very weak. They have a 2 yr black belt program which bothers me


it is not unheard of, but isn't too common, for Kukkiwon practitioners to get a black belt in just over a year, really it's about hours trained. Choi got 1st dan in Karate in 1939, only one year after moving to Japan, Ed Sell got a 4th dan in TKD in late1965, only 2 years after he started his TKD training. The important thing to note is that these men were training martial arts 6-7 days a week from sunup to sundown. For reference WTF (now WT) is not a style nor is it a governing body for rank progression. World Taekwondo is purely the governing body for the sport of Taekwondo and it's rank and curriculum is dictated by the Kukkiwon in Seoul.

That being said, there are equally as many (arguably more) watered down KKW schools as there is ATA. Every association has its bad schools and its good schools. The best course of action is to first decide _why _you want to train in the first place. Second visit as many schools as you need to find a school that will give you what you are looking for without breaking the bank. There is no wrong reason for wanting to train but not all schools can accommodate all reasons


Lars5277 said:


> The "Karate" school set me off by the owners demeanor and confusion over what he claims to teach.


This is purely for marketing. Karate is a well known term associated with martial arts training so if you want to get new students in the door then advertising "karate" and then explaining your style once they are in the door is definitely the way to go. It used to be Judo way back when, then Kung fu for a while, now it's "karate". It's necessary if you are running a for profit school to make sure you can get new students in the door.


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## Balrog (Sunday at 1:17 PM)

Lars5277 said:


> As I stated earlier I'm new.  So I hope this is the proper place to post.
> 
> I took WTF as a kid and loved it, but had to leave due to money reasons.  My family and I are currently enrolled in ATA.   We don't have many choices up here in Minot North Dakota so I have 4 styles to choose from.
> We have ATA and WTF (TKD).  We have a guy who has a "Karate" school who claims he really teaches a style of Kung Fu called Sou Shou (spelling?), and a Hapkido school.
> ...


The big difference is in the forms and the philosophy.  ATA is most definitely NOT watered down and weak, nor is it soft and cuddly.  I've had too many bruises and bled too much - I speak from experience.

When you put on an ATA Black Belt, you will have earned it.  And you will have learned how to defend yourself properly and effectively.  Most importantly, you will have discovered that we learn how to fight so that we can learn how to not fight.  

My suggestion is to visit the ATA school and do some trial classes or a 4 week intro program.  I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.


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## Balrog (Sunday at 1:20 PM)

SFC JeffJ said:


> ATA used to be a pretty good organization until they decided money was more important than quality instruction.
> 
> It's also very expensive as others have pointed out
> 
> ...


You haven't looked very hard, sir.  As far as your comment about deciding money is more important than quality instruction - I will politely point out that you are dead wrong.


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