# Poor MT in MMA



## Kieran (Jun 26, 2007)

Has anyone else noticed the poor Muay Thai skills in MMA? Through all the promotions I always hear someone say they do muay thai and have done for x years (x = big number usually) but when you see them fight they show little or no muay thai technique or even skill.

For example, I was watching bodogfight season 3 yesterday and one guy said "I have been training Muay Thai for 7 years and BJJ for 5". But it looked like he was talking months, not years! His kicks were pathetic, his stance was wrong and he didn't move like a Thai boxer at all. I understand some of these things may change in an MMA match where you have to quickly adapt but to be training 7 years and not be able to kick properly?

Has anyone else noticed this?


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## Hand Sword (Jun 26, 2007)

Yep! The Boxing looks terrible too. The problem is they only dabble in those areas and focus more on the wrestling/BJJ, or more specifically, the offensive aspects of those styles. Once they are on the receiving end, they look clueless.


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## Kieran (Jun 26, 2007)

I've never understood the low guard either? Is that taken from the grappling arts? It is most certainly the reaon for more than a few knockouts!


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## Hand Sword (Jun 26, 2007)

Yeah. It helps when sprawling against the inevitable shoot at the legs for the takedowns. same for the wide stance that prevents kicking adequately.


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## Tez3 (Jun 26, 2007)

It's true you need a wide stance in MMA, it's not true that MMA fighters 'dabble' in styles, at least not here. 'Dabblers' would get weeded out vey quickly.
Keiran I assume you are talking about American promotions? Most American fighters seem to come from a wresting background, ours do not with one or two exceptions such as Abdul Mohammed who is not english and was in his countries Olympic team. Look for him in the UFC from the UK.
Many British fighters train MT in Thailand, Micheal Bisping does as do the fighters from our club. Sponsored by Fairtex we train with them in Bangkok.
Our fighters aren't perfect but the majority of them come from the striking arts so their standup is pretty good.


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## Kieran (Jun 26, 2007)

I was really talking about MMA as a whole, but yes, mainly American I guess. I've noticed this in IFL, BodogFight, Cage Rage, UFC and Cage Warriors FC.

Maybe I'm just comparing everyone with too high of a standard? (Anderson Silva!)


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## Tez3 (Jun 26, 2007)

Kieran said:


> I was really talking about MMA as a whole, but yes, mainly American I guess. I've noticed this in IFL, BodogFight, Cage Rage, UFC and Cage Warriors FC.
> 
> *Maybe I'm just comparing everyone with too high of a standard?* (Anderson Silva!)


 
Er yes? I don't know of many in CR and CW who actually claim to be MT fighters though. I do know a very good female MT fighter in your town though! she spent a while training in Thailand.


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## Kieran (Jun 26, 2007)

haha, I guess your right. No, it's just people who say they have been doing muay thai for years then I see them in the ring and they don't appear to be at the level I would expect them to be.

wow, cool, who is that?


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## Tez3 (Jun 26, 2007)

Kieran said:


> haha, I guess your right. No, it's just people who say they have been doing muay thai for years then I see them in the ring and they don't appear to be at the level I would expect them to be.
> 
> wow, cool, who is that?


 
Jenny Robertson, her husband (maybe ex I'm not sure) is a very good MMA fighter but currently in Afghanistan. they've both been training with the Dinky Ninjas fight team who include Paul McVeigh a very good stand up fighter as well as John Nicholson who went toe to toe with Sandy Geddes at CW5 the only CW show held up north (South Shields) My instructor and I organised that one.

This might interest you http://cagewarriors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12546


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## Andrew Green (Jun 26, 2007)

Kieran said:


> His kicks were pathetic, his stance was wrong and he didn't move like a Thai boxer at all. I understand some of these things may change in an MMA match where you have to quickly adapt but to be training 7 years and not be able to kick properly?
> 
> Has anyone else noticed this?




Well, what is "proper" changes when the rules change.  Based on what is good striking in MMA what Muay Thai fighters do in Muay Thai is "terrible" as well.

The standard Muay Thai sort of stance in a MMA fight would be a big mistake.


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## Jutt- (Jun 26, 2007)

Chuck Liddel demonstrates some good tactics here....






It says he's practising Vale Tudo , but I learnt on this very forum that freestyle.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 26, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> It's true you need a wide stance in MMA, it's not true that MMA fighters 'dabble' in styles, at least not here. 'Dabblers' would get weeded out vey quickly.


 

Sorry for the "poor choice" of wording. How about they don't put enough focus in those areas. The bulk of focus goes toward the BJJ/wrestling aspect since it is almost 100 percent that the match will end up in that arrea. As for getting weeded out quickly, have you seen the shows the OP listed? Their MT and Boxing skills are merely adequate at best. Most, In my opininon, are executed very poorly. An example? Look at Anderson Silva. He was a MT person. He's destroyed, rather easily too, some MMA "toughguys" and "names". Why? His Boxing/MT skills were correct. Theirs, which were thought to be so, were very paltry upon comparison.


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## Kieran (Jun 27, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Well, what is "proper" changes when the rules change. Based on what is good striking in MMA what Muay Thai fighters do in Muay Thai is "terrible" as well.
> 
> The standard Muay Thai sort of stance in a MMA fight would be a big mistake.


 
Thanks for the link tez, looks like a good event!

Andrew - I'm nowhere near an expert on either but I would have thought that good Muay Thai striking would render the opponent unable to continue the fight, be it either a KO or a stoppage because the other guy's legs are too messed up to continue. I would imagine that in MMA the same tactic could (and has) be adopted to great effect.

What I meant before was (just to clarify) that a lot of people use "flashy tricks" and don't display the basics. I would have imagined that if you are using Muay Thai along with other systems (such as wrestling or jui jitsu or judo etc) then it would be the basics that don't change and the tricks that do. I don't have any MMA experience though so that's just my guess!

Also, I discovered last night that it's not fighters saying they have loads of experience that annoys me... It's the commentators saying things like "great thai kick there" when it clearly wasn't a thai kick and if it was meant to be then it was a pretty poor one.

*edit* Don't take any of this as me being rude or argumentative in any way!


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## Tez3 (Jun 27, 2007)

Commentators! don't get me started I cannot stand any in any sport!


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## Andrew Green (Jun 27, 2007)

Kieran said:


> Andrew - I'm nowhere near an expert on either but I would have thought that good Muay Thai striking would render the opponent unable to continue the fight, be it either a KO or a stoppage because the other guy's legs are too messed up to continue. I would imagine that in MMA the same tactic could (and has) be adopted to great effect.



Th problem lies in tactics and different rules.

In MMA hands do more damage and can slip through easier.  Plus if you get the guy in trouble there is a good chance he will look for a takedown. One of the best times to try and take someone down, is when they are trying to kick you.

So the way you approach your attacks, and even the way you stand and move has to shift to take into account the different dangers.


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## Kieran (Jun 27, 2007)

ah. good point. IN Mt I would be watching for my kcik to be caught or for my supporting leg to be kicked but with people shooting and and whatnot, it becomes different. That makes sense. cheers.


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## Odin (Jun 27, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> Sorry for the "poor choice" of wording. How about they don't put enough focus in those areas. The bulk of focus goes toward the BJJ/wrestling aspect since it is almost 100 percent that the match will end up in that arrea. As for getting weeded out quickly, have you seen the shows the OP listed? Their MT and Boxing skills are merely adequate at best. Most, In my opininon, are executed very poorly. An example? Look at Anderson Silva. He was a MT person. He's destroyed, rather easily too, some MMA "toughguys" and "names". Why? His Boxing/MT skills were correct. Theirs, which were thought to be so, were very paltry upon comparison.


 
Anderson silva to be fair has lost quite a few fights.

I think he is rated far to high because of his win over Rich Franklin.


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## Odin (Jun 27, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Th problem lies in tactics and different rules.
> 
> In MMA hands do more damage and can slip through easier. Plus if you get the guy in trouble there is a good chance he will look for a takedown. One of the best times to try and take someone down, is when they are trying to kick you.
> 
> So the way you approach your attacks, and even the way you stand and move has to shift to take into account the different dangers.


 

Took the words right out of my mouth.


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## zDom (Jun 27, 2007)

Going out on a limb, here, so be gentle correcting me if I'm off base 

Just from observation:

I think some (not all, but definately SOME) fighters may have STARTED Muay Thai (or boxing, or BJJ, or taekwondo, or karate) 5 or 6 years ago, but actually have not spent that much time in the gym training that style.

So, you have a guy who first showed up at a MT gym 5 years ago, for example, may have put in a couple months there ... then started training somewhere else, maybe revisiting the MT gym once or twice a month over the years &#8212; maybe even a week here, a week there.

So it comes time to write his (or her) martial art resume, its "5 years of MT."

But that isn't the same as training for two hours 2 or 3 times per week, every week, for five years. Nowhere NEAR the same.

It's all about repetitions, putting the hours in.

From my observation, many televised MMA fighters look like they spend a lot of time in the gym doing progressive resistance exercise (lifting weights), maybe a lot of running.

Well-defined musculature and low body fat.

But their techniques &#8212; both punching and kicking &#8212; look unrefined.

And their standup often looks poorly trained &#8212; they look like they have difficulty judging range, bridging the gap, punching and kicking with the type of accuracy I see from those who put in the time in a boxing ring or striking martial art dojo/dojang.

Mind you this doesn't apply to ALL MMA fighters. There are obviously some good strikers &#8212; some who are just naturals, others that have obviously put some time in training their striking ability.

But there are plenty out there who may have STARTED something years ago but really haven't put the hours in &#8212; and it shows.


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## Odin (Jun 28, 2007)

zDom said:


> Going out on a limb, here, so be gentle correcting me if I'm off base
> 
> Just from observation:
> 
> ...


 

I think the thing with is when it comes to going from boxing to MMA is that the stlye of fighting is changed, its not just the stance its also the fact that alot of thaiboxers and boxers dont expect to be able to land single shots in the ring, most shots that hit are set up in combos, ( if you can land single shots all the time then you are boxing below your level ).
In MMA combos are difficult because you are expected to be taken down, there are far to many things to think about when you are in striking range and as such fighters tend to strike out of range, hence why you se alot of lunging shots and mis timed blows.


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## zDom (Jun 28, 2007)

Odin said:


> I think the thing with is when it comes to going from boxing to MMA is that the stlye of fighting is changed, its not just the stance its also the fact that alot of thaiboxers and boxers dont expect to be able to land single shots in the ring, most shots that hit are set up in combos, ( if you can land single shots all the time then you are boxing below your level ).
> In MMA combos are difficult because you are expected to be taken down, there are far to many things to think about when you are in striking range and as such fighters tend to strike out of range, hence why you se alot of lunging shots and mis timed blows.



I think you are right  that is definately part of it.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 28, 2007)

Odin said:


> Anderson silva to be fair has lost quite a few fights.
> 
> I think he is rated far to high because of his win over Rich Franklin.


 
True. Still proves my point though, doesn't it? Franklin was a high calibur MMA fighter, Leben was a "tough guy" MMA fighter. Both had the skills supposedly and Silva made them look stupid. My point was that he is correctly trained in the MT/Boxing execution and it shows when compared to those skills shown by most of the MMA fighters I've seen.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 28, 2007)

One thing about Silva.  He is also a top level BJJ competitor.  Neither Leben nor Franklin would have wanted to take him down, but rather stand and trade.   A advantage on the ground changes the way you approach stand up fighting.  With the other guy not wanting to take you down, you can get away with more.

A fairly clear example of this was the way COuture fought Sylvia.  Had he been fighting someone that might put him on his back or throw kicks / knees I think he would have fought a different fight.  But as he had such a huge advantage on the ground, Sylvia was unlikely to take him down, or start throwing kicks which would expose him to a takedown.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 28, 2007)

I agree with that. The point I was going for, with regard to how the conversation was going is that MMA'ers who were primarily strikers first execute their Boxing/MT better than the majority of MMAers who weren't but "train" in those areas, a lot supposedly.


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## thaistyle (Jul 1, 2007)

There haven't been too many fighters that have great muay thai skills when they claim to study muay thai.  In my opinion, Wanderlei Silva and Yves Edwards have demonstrated some of the best muay thai technique in an mma fight.  They have blended their muay thai well with their ground game.  Their are so many fighters these days that lose focus on their stand up and concentrate too heavily on their ground game.  They need to be ready for both.


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## thaistyle (Jul 4, 2007)

Some of the best muay thai I've seen in mma, has come from Wanderlei Silva, Duane Ludwig and Yves Edwards.  They have definitely worked on their muay thai  along with their ground game.  Some fighters claim to have a muay thai background but can't stand up and fight to save their butt.  Anderson Silva does have some good muay thai and yes he has some losses, but that doesn't mean his muay thai isn't good.  Anderson Silva once belonged to the Chute Boxe team with Wanderlei Silva and Chute Boxe fighters are known for good muay thai skills.


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## darthcual (Jul 5, 2007)

Hi all. First post here. I think whoever said they dabble is dead on the money. We have ppl come and go in our school trying to pick up this piece and leave out that. It doesnt work that way. I try to explain to them. If you did BJJ for 3 months, how good would you be at it. Terrible is the answer for those who have taken one too many and are punch drunk. They dont get weeded out. Thats why we see them in the big name venues. Good example: Marvin Eastman gets knocked out by Travis Lutter!?!?!! This should not happen. Lutter is decisively a BJJ guy while Eastman claims Muay Thai/Kickboxing as his home. Their are those who have some pretty nice stand up, though. David Louasou, George St Pierre, Anderson Silva. These guys accel because they can do both so well. They are not encumbered by being one dementional. To the OP, yeah I cannot stand it when the announcer says something like, " This man is a Muay Thai Expert......etc." and then fails to show me anything remotely resembling MT. Everyone of those guys should be made to sit down and watch Buakow Pramuk and some Ramon Dekkers.


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## Odin (Jul 5, 2007)

darthcual said:


> . Everyone of those guys should be made to sit down and watch Buakow Pramuk and some Ramon Dekkers.


 
The thing is they proberly are Muay thai experts..but unfortunately they are not in a muay thai compition.

Even Ramon Dekkers was made swift work of when he entered the cage, yet if it was a striaght thai boxing fight im sure it would have gone the other way.


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## darthcual (Jul 5, 2007)

Odin said:


> The thing is they proberly are Muay thai experts..but unfortunately they are not in a muay thai compition.
> 
> Even Ramon Dekkers was made swift work of when he entered the cage, yet if it was a striaght thai boxing fight im sure it would have gone the other way.


 
Yeah well if you are not going to use it in the ring their is no point in training in it. Pete Spratt was able to make short work of a very Tough Robbie Lawler with some well placed leg kicks. If your not going to use it, I say, dont waste time with it in training. Unless you just want to see what it looks like so you can recognize when your opponent is using it on you. I agree with you whole heartedly on the "It not a Muay Thai fight". The rules play a major role in what can and cannot be accomplished. The problem lies when the fighter claims Muay Thai yet looks extremely sloppy or uses no stand up at all.


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## Odin (Jul 5, 2007)

darthcual said:


> Yeah well if you are not going to use it in the ring their is no point in training in it. Pete Spratt was able to make short work of a very Tough Robbie Lawler with some well placed leg kicks. If your not going to use it, I say, dont waste time with it in training. Unless you just want to see what it looks like so you can recognize when your opponent is using it on you. I agree with you whole heartedly on the "It not a Muay Thai fight". The rules play a major role in what can and cannot be accomplished. The problem lies when the fighter claims Muay Thai yet looks extremely sloppy or uses no stand up at all.


 
I dont know, you see the thing with MMA is that he takes what it finds useful from other arts and incorporates it into MMA.

and there still is a lot of muay thai in mma!

For instance the Knees, clinch, legs kicks and elbows ( not to mention Mirko's head kick)  are all very good tools to have inside a cage.

what needs to change though is the way you use muay thai.

Its like if you were in a street fight you wouldnt set up a five punch combo ending in a highkick, you would instead go for a more straight to the point approach.

You just have to adapt what you have learnt from Muay thai and apply it to the situation you are faced with.

That goes for any art I suppose.


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## Kieran (Jul 6, 2007)

Odin said:


> For instance the Knees, clinch, legs kicks and elbows ( not to mention Mirko's head kick) are all very good tools to have inside a cage.


 
This is what I mean. The things you outlined above are part of Muay Thai and are now part of MMA but the way in which they are executed are rarely the way a Nak Muay would throw/use them. I understand some thing have to change and the way you fight muay thai will not be the way you fight MMA but there are things which change that I do not understand. It may be because I don't have any grappling/wrestling experience so I don't know about takedowns etc.

For example, leg kicks:

This is one of my main bugbears, a leg kick is a leg kick, it requires a lot more than to just hit your opponent for it to be a "thai style kick" as most commentators say. I rarely see a properly exectuted thai leg kick.

http://allfc.co.uk/links.php?q=Roundhouse_kick

The text in that page demonstrates what I mean, but the picture looks more like an "MMA low kick" in that his hip isn't fully turned over, thus not getting full power out of his kick and not making full use of his momentum.


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## Hand Sword (Jul 6, 2007)

As I said before, most just "dabble" and focus more on the grappling aspect. That's where the MMA game is usually played. Those that come in as MT/Boxer people are the ones who do it properly. However, most of those types stick to their own styles, so far.


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## Odin (Jul 11, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> As I said before, most just "dabble" and focus more on the grappling aspect. That's where the MMA game is usually played. Those that come in as MT/Boxer people are the ones who do it properly. However, most of those types stick to their own styles, so far.


 
I disagree most people that train MMA ,train stand up as much as they do groundwork.

Those that come in to MMA from a straight striking background have to re-train they're stand up to compete so i wouldnt say it made them any better then those that dont.

look at the past couple of months...

Dan Henderson knocked out Wanderlie Silva

Rampage Jackson knocked out Chuck Liddell

Both are former wreastlers that have trained striking either yet both knocked out men that have been trained in a sole striking art from the begining.


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## MTguy (Jun 20, 2022)

I hate it when commentators said this guy's Thai is good. It's like saying their American is good. Also 'thai kick'is like saying there is only one kick fighters use.

The biggest pet peeve I have is the lack of blocking of low kicks. It comes down to shin conditioning. Actually, the problem is shin conditiong. People say, oh you cannot block because you'lld get taken down. See how Aldo blocks and stands. He has no problem dealing with kicks and take downs and delivering damage back.


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