# Sifu Emin Boztepe



## yipman_sifu

Does anyone here know about why he left the EWTO?. I heard that Boztepe is considered to be one of the best street fighters in the world. I don't know why some Wing Chun Sifus and trainers have negative attitude whenever his name is mentioned. It is because he fought William Cheung, or because he challenged the Gracies. I think that Wing Chun people never issue challenges and fight only in actual situations. I think Boztepe was considered to be a fast desicion making trainer that was using Wing Chun in street challenges, that's why the Wing Chun community had negative looks at him. I personally thinks that he is an extremely good Sifu and a very good gentlman. Most people I crossed hands with that met with Boztepe says exactly opposite to what people says about him. They say he is a very good guy and respecting anyone regarding his fighting experience. What do you think about him?.


----------



## Andrew Green

Attacking William Cheung would be a big part of it.  If memory serves his "challenge" to the Gracies was done in such a way that there was no doubt they wouldn't bother.  And his Anti-grappling stuff is... well... silly.

Whatever his personality in person is, the way he has promoted himself and his image is not something worthy of much respect.


----------



## yipman_sifu

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Attacking William Cheung would be a big part of it. If memory serves his "challenge" to the Gracies was done in such a way that there was no doubt they wouldn't bother. And his Anti-grappling stuff is... well... silly.
> 
> Whatever his personality in person is, the way he has promoted himself and his image is not something worthy of much respect.


 
Regarding the Gracie challenge. You looked into it as a guy trained in a Jujitsu way. You will definitely say that. The real fact is Boztepe issued a message of the challenge to be fought out of the ring that the Gracies are used to. They knew that the street is not to their favor where actual fights takes place. After all Boztepe's background reveals that he trained in Turkish Wrestling which is more harder than grappling in its concepts. My point is not that wheather Wing Chun or BJJ dominates, both are good and useful. I want to say that Boztepe is a fighter that no one can ever deny.

Regarding Cheung. He thaught that his Wing Chun was the only best, and always challenged the Leung Ting lineage. Cheung said that no one could defeat him, and Boztepe did one thing, proved that Cheung's Wing Chun has it weakness and that practise is the key to victory.


----------



## Andrew Green

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Regarding the Gracie challenge. You looked into it as a guy trained in a Jujitsu way. You will definitely say that. The real fact is Boztepe issued a message of the challenge to be fought out of the ring that the Gracies are used to.



That's not the way the Gracie Challenge worked.  The Gracie Challenge was anyone, anywhere, under no rules.  That's how they made themselve famous.

My understanding is that after issuing the challenge they basically told him to "come on down" and he set up a bunch of other criteria to back out, without saying he backed out.


----------



## bcbernam777

I am sorry but I dont respect the man only because of the manner in which the Cheung incident occoured as well as other incidents. To me he seems to be arrogant and thuggish, not my cup of tea as a person, as a martial artist the only way I could judge is to taste it for myself


----------



## WingChun Lawyer

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> I am sorry but I dont respect the man only because of the manner in which the Cheung incident occoured as well as other incidents. To me he seems to be arrogant and thuggish, not my cup of tea as a person, as a martial artist the only way I could judge is to taste it for myself


 
Do you know him personally? What are your impressions of him?

Regarding the Gracie challenge, by now it is impossible to know with absolute certainty who said what, the internet is full of hearsay. But, AFAIK, the Gracies agreed to fight him in a police district and he refused, right?


----------



## yipman_sifu

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> Do you know him personally? What are your impressions of him?
> 
> Regarding the Gracie challenge, by now it is impossible to know with absolute certainty who said what, the internet is full of hearsay. But, AFAIK, the Gracies agreed to fight him in a police district and he refused, right?


 
Not sure of the saying Lawyer, but I heard that Boztepe challenged them at the begining and they refused. Later they wanted to accept his invitation and challenge him. Boztepe refused and said that his Sifus put him into this and he didn't want it.

That is not important. We know that Boztepe was very confident and was young. I personally loves Wing Chun but beleives that a challenge against the guy who uses this theory that states "The idea of jiu jitsu is to give the little guy, a chance to beat the big guy" is not easy. I cannot say that Boztepe would lose, but it is very hard to win someone like Royce once your down on the ground, because he is almost invinsible there.


----------



## yipman_sifu

Regarding that the Gracies challenged the martial artist in their gym and won. That' true they won most of the matches but not all of them. I heard that the Gracies taped only the victories. That doesn't mean that they are bad. Royce was in the process of learning how to defeat opponents and how to overcome his weakness. Same goes to Wing chun about Beimo contests. Although master Wong won more than 100 matches without losing. Other of his companions lost to other styles in some of the matches.

Boztepe's challenge were not among these Gracies challenges as I beleive. It was a different kind of invitation by Boztepe to prove that WT was the best fighting form ever. I don't know why he wanted to do that, it seems that he didn't realized that his reputation went down after this and the old Cheung incident. Martial arts is not just being the best, but respect and admiration is what makes the man. It seems that Bozrepe realized this and appologized to the Gracies at the end.


----------



## Andrew Green

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Boztepe's challenge were not among these Gracies challenges as I beleive. It was a different kind of invitation by Boztepe to prove that WT was the best fighting form ever. I don't know why he wanted to do that, it seems that he didn't realized that his reputation went down after this and the old Cheung incident. Martial arts is not just being the best, but respect and admiration is what makes the man. It seems that Bozrepe realized this and appologized to the Gracies at the end.



I imagine he wasn't expecting his reputation to go down 

Basically he stole the Gracie's idea and tried to use it for himself.  The Gracie's made challenges that they where quite certain would never get accepted as well.  The habit of challenging the current top boxer for example.

Boxer has nothing to gain, and a lot too loose.  And chances are he would have as they trained to beat guys with those skills.  Money also wouldn't be their and the boxing organizations would've stepped in and put a end to it even if he wanted to accept.

With Boztepe it came off as a big bluff, one that he would have lost.  ANd as I'm quite sure they did accept and he wanted a bunch of silly conditions that made it pretty much impossible, it made things look worse for him.

Simple truth is if he wanted to fight one of them, he could have called them up, set a date and gone down to one of their schools.  I'm pretty sure they would've accepted and we'd have seen it in the next Gracie in Action video.

Her made a big bluff, everyone called him on it.  Basically that's all there is.


----------



## yipman_sifu

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I imagine he wasn't expecting his reputation to go down
> 
> Basically he stole the Gracie's idea and tried to use it for himself. The Gracie's made challenges that they where quite certain would never get accepted as well. The habit of challenging the current top boxer for example.
> 
> Boxer has nothing to gain, and a lot too loose. And chances are he would have as they trained to beat guys with those skills. Money also wouldn't be their and the boxing organizations would've stepped in and put a end to it even if he wanted to accept.
> 
> With Boztepe it came off as a big bluff, one that he would have lost. ANd as I'm quite sure they did accept and he wanted a bunch of silly conditions that made it pretty much impossible, it made things look worse for him.
> 
> Simple truth is if he wanted to fight one of them, he could have called them up, set a date and gone down to one of their schools. I'm pretty sure they would've accepted and we'd have seen it in the next Gracie in Action video.
> 
> Her made a big bluff, everyone called him on it. Basically that's all there is.


 
Everything is possible Andrew. After all whenever I heard about the Botepe/Gracie challenge from someone, I hear a different story. It seems that this story were discussed in a big way like you said although it wasn't worth it. That's why you cannot get the exact detail. Any how. Lets just close this issue and confess that Wing Chun and BJJ never lacked techniques, but it is the individual progress.


----------



## Flash25

If you do some research, this is what you'll find about why Sifu Boztepe left the EWTO. It consisted of two factors, money and a lack of trust. The way the international organization is setup is that the head of each region pays GM Leung Ting a cut, much like a franchise works. By the mid 90s Sifu Boztepe had attained a "superstar" status among the WT/martial arts world. This status was not undeserved as he was a top notch fighter and, by most accounts, defeated William Chung.

This is the part of the story that is subject to whose side you believe. According to Si-fu Kernspecht Sifu Boztepe was not paying his franchise fees and distancing himself from both Si-fu Kernspecht and GM Leung Ting. He was also teaching seminars in Germany and other places without the permission of the Heads of those regions. That is a no-no. 

Sifu Boztepe claimed that GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht had made a lot of money off of his name and that the EWTO would not be the size that it was without him, therefore he should have been afforded special privileges. He also claimed the GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht got all Dynasty on him and tried setting up ambushes and destroying him. Either way there were irreconcilable differences and they parted ways. Hence EBMAS, which appears to be all the WT Sifu Boztepe learned up to that point and Latosa Escrima.

As far as the Gracie challenge goes, Sifu Boztepe felt that they were insulting many great martial artists, like Gene Lebell, and needed to be taught a lesson. He just didn't want to do it on their terms. They wanted him to come fight in the UFC, but he didn't want to fight through a bunch of people to get to the Gracies. They reiterated their open challenge and offered to fight at their school, but Sifu Boztepe didn't trust them. He countered by offering to fight in a neutral location with the press available to document it. All money made from the fight would go to charity. The Gracies refused this offer. Eventually both sides felt it wasn't worth their time and the matter faded to history.



Ben


----------



## bcbernam777

Flash25 said:
			
		

> If you do some research, this is what you'll find about why Sifu Boztepe left the EWTO. It consisted of two factors, money and a lack of trust. The way the international organization is setup is that the head of each region pays GM Leung Ting a cut, much like a franchise works. By the mid 90s Sifu Boztepe had attained a "superstar" status among the WT/martial arts world. This status was not undeserved as he was a top notch fighter and, by most accounts, defeated William Chung.
> 
> This is the part of the story that is subject to whose side you believe. According to Si-fu Kernspecht Sifu Boztepe was not paying his franchise fees and distancing himself from both Si-fu Kernspecht and GM Leung Ting. He was also teaching seminars in Germany and other places without the permission of the Heads of those regions. That is a no-no.
> 
> Sifu Boztepe claimed that GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht had made a lot of money off of his name and that the EWTO would not be the size that it was without him, therefore he should have been afforded special privileges. He also claimed the GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht got all Dynasty on him and tried setting up ambushes and destroying him. Either way there were irreconcilable differences and they parted ways. Hence EBMAS, which appears to be all the WT Sifu Boztepe learned up to that point and Latosa Escrima.
> 
> As far as the Gracie challenge goes, Sifu Boztepe felt that they were insulting many great martial artists, like Gene Lebell, and needed to be taught a lesson. He just didn't want to do it on their terms. They wanted him to come fight in the UFC, but he didn't want to fight through a bunch of people to get to the Gracies. They reiterated their open challenge and offered to fight at their school, but Sifu Boztepe didn't trust them. He countered by offering to fight in a neutral location with the press available to document it. All money made from the fight would go to charity. The Gracies refused this offer. Eventually both sides felt it wasn't worth their time and the matter faded to history.
> 
> 
> 
> Ben



mmmm not what I have heard but any how who the hell knows, it just starts getting sickening when this ego stuff starts getting out of control, I mean these men do love to blow their own trumpet and to a certain extent think they are invinciple, I read a post from another post of someone who went along to challenge EB, who refused him because he (eb) was so good he would defeat him and make him look bad in front of everyone else, this smacks to me of ego, something there is a little to much of even amongst the so called "masters" of today, (and I do use the term very litely). People often mistake arrogence with self confidence, they are not the same thing, From what I have read seen and heard this is his bread and butter. There is a saying that Bruce Lee said that I use over and over again, i always keep this saying in mind, and many of these so called masters, including Boztepe would do well to keep in mind:

_"*THE GREATEST MISTAKE OF A MARTIAL ARTIST IS TO ANTICIPATE THE OUTCOME OF COMBAT, YOU MUST NOT BE THINKING OF WHETHER WIN OR LOSE, BUT LET NATURE TAKE ITS COURSE, AND IN THE PROPER TIME YOUR TOOLS WILL STRIKE"*_


----------



## Jonathan Randall

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Attacking William Cheung would be a big part of it. If memory serves his "challenge" to the Gracies was done in such a way that there was no doubt they wouldn't bother. And his Anti-grappling stuff is... well... silly.
> 
> Whatever his personality in person is, the way he has promoted himself and his image is not something worthy of much respect.


 
The attack on William Cheung is what soured me on the man. However, enough time has passed that I'm willing to give him a second chance. He was young at the time and we all make stupid mistakes.


----------



## yipman_sifu

Flash25 said:
			
		

> If you do some research, this is what you'll find about why Sifu Boztepe left the EWTO. It consisted of two factors, money and a lack of trust. The way the international organization is setup is that the head of each region pays GM Leung Ting a cut, much like a franchise works. By the mid 90s Sifu Boztepe had attained a "superstar" status among the WT/martial arts world. This status was not undeserved as he was a top notch fighter and, by most accounts, defeated William Chung.
> 
> This is the part of the story that is subject to whose side you believe. According to Si-fu Kernspecht Sifu Boztepe was not paying his franchise fees and distancing himself from both Si-fu Kernspecht and GM Leung Ting. He was also teaching seminars in Germany and other places without the permission of the Heads of those regions. That is a no-no.
> 
> Sifu Boztepe claimed that GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht had made a lot of money off of his name and that the EWTO would not be the size that it was without him, therefore he should have been afforded special privileges. He also claimed the GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht got all Dynasty on him and tried setting up ambushes and destroying him. Either way there were irreconcilable differences and they parted ways. Hence EBMAS, which appears to be all the WT Sifu Boztepe learned up to that point and Latosa Escrima.
> 
> As far as the Gracie challenge goes, Sifu Boztepe felt that they were insulting many great martial artists, like Gene Lebell, and needed to be taught a lesson. He just didn't want to do it on their terms. They wanted him to come fight in the UFC, but he didn't want to fight through a bunch of people to get to the Gracies. They reiterated their open challenge and offered to fight at their school, but Sifu Boztepe didn't trust them. He countered by offering to fight in a neutral location with the press available to document it. All money made from the fight would go to charity. The Gracies refused this offer. Eventually both sides felt it wasn't worth their time and the matter faded to history.
> 
> 
> 
> Ben


 
Go to charity. That's true. Boztepe wrote exactly the letter considering the charity issue and said that he wanted to check the real telents in the street where real fighting usually takes place. Some WT trainers said that Boztepe's idea was to prove that fighting in a ring or your place (Gracie Gym) is not a great idea, fighting in an unknown place would be better. Well that's the whole idea.


----------



## Si-Je

Flash25 said:


> If you do some research, this is what you'll find about why Sifu Boztepe left the EWTO. It consisted of two factors, money and a lack of trust. The way the international organization is setup is that the head of each region pays GM Leung Ting a cut, much like a franchise works. By the mid 90s Sifu Boztepe had attained a "superstar" status among the WT/martial arts world. This status was not undeserved as he was a top notch fighter and, by most accounts, defeated William Chung.
> 
> This is the part of the story that is subject to whose side you believe. According to Si-fu Kernspecht Sifu Boztepe was not paying his franchise fees and distancing himself from both Si-fu Kernspecht and GM Leung Ting. He was also teaching seminars in Germany and other places without the permission of the Heads of those regions. That is a no-no.
> 
> Sifu Boztepe claimed that GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht had made a lot of money off of his name and that the EWTO would not be the size that it was without him, therefore he should have been afforded special privileges. He also claimed the GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht got all Dynasty on him and tried setting up ambushes and destroying him. Either way there were irreconcilable differences and they parted ways. Hence EBMAS, which appears to be all the WT Sifu Boztepe learned up to that point and Latosa Escrima.
> Ben


 
Yup, that pretty much summs it up!  Nasty, nasty politics, big egos, and dirty tricks.  lol!


----------



## DeLamar.J

I always thought that William had an open challenge to other Wing Chun students. If he was beaten, that doesnt make the guy who one a bad guy.


----------



## Ali Rahim

DeLamar.J said:


> I always thought that William had an open challenge to other Wing Chun students. If he was beaten, that doesnt make the guy who one a bad guy.


 
True That


----------



## DeLamar.J

Andrew Green said:


> That's not the way the Gracie Challenge worked.  The Gracie Challenge was anyone, anywhere, under no rules.  That's how they made themselve famous.
> 
> My understanding is that after issuing the challenge they basically told him to "come on down" and he set up a bunch of other criteria to back out, without saying he backed out.



I know people personally who were refused by the Gracie family because the fight had no rules. They have certain rules that they play by, or they wont fight. I'm sure they would fight some street thugs with no rules, but I know they refuse challenges from reputable kung fu masters in no rules fighting.


----------



## Si-Je

All over the web people talk about these two incidents.  
I've watched some of Emin's interviews and before I heard from his mouth his side of the storys my opinion of him was very similar to those here.
He did seem arrogant and such. But my opinion has changed now that I've seen and heard new facts on the situations.

The Chueng fight:  Chueng place public challenges in magazines and such that he was the best, his wing chun the best.  He placed an open challenge to anyone who thought could beat him.  Emin obliged.  He knew his weakness, and took him to the ground.  Thus, he won.  Emin's comments on this issue were very diplomatic, and reasonable.  He was young and idealistic.  Bruce Lee is a very stong influence on him at that time.  Bruce Lee did very similar challenges when he was alive, and was criticized and sometimes not well liked.  They both are very idealistic, and honest in their dealings with others.  This sometimes isn't received well by others, and seen as arrogance, or threatening.

The Gracies:  These guys have great manipulation of the media, strong corporate sponsorship, money, and they know how to work it to their advantage.  The same goes here, they offered an open challenge to all.  But their not delivering what they advertise.
They say they fight without rules, this is not so.  When they go to a challenge match they go as a large group.  I see this as a type of "gang" mentality.  Very aggressive, and unfair to the challenger who usually has little to no backing in comparision.
What Emin didn't like was their arrogance in the "way" that they challenge other martial artists.  Again, he is idealistic, and wishes others to be respectful to others.  He was angry about what they were doing and accepted their open challenge.  He wrote to the owners of UFC and stated this and that he wanted to challenge Gracie.  They wanted him to go through the UFC rules and rank up to the champion, Gracie.  He did not wish do this, think.  UFC would have made ALOT of money off Emin going through their "system" and he wasn't playing that game.  
The Gracies responded and invited him to their school.  Again, that would not be a smart move for anyone.  They hold all the cards, you don't fight your opponent on their "turf", with their "rules".  This is what Emin was trying to get them away from, their comfort zone.
He recomended a place that was neutral to both parties with media there to fairly document the outcome, no mats, no rules.  The Gracies declined, stating that Emin was being difficult and questioned his integrity, courage, etc.  very rude.
This all eventually became a "deal breaker" because neither side could agree on fight terms.  Then the Gracies sent their lawyers after Emin and he backed off the entire subject when the Gracie's threated to sue.  So, he dropped it.
Check out his interviews.

Enough of that now.
As for leaving EWTO.  There was many reasons for him leaving.  The Chueng fight had nothing to do with it.  At the time it just benifeted EWTO.  The Gracies didn't have anything to do with it.
He left because him and Leung Ting were very very close, and he was betrayed by those he trusted and respected.  This was all due to money, ego, and such, but not on Emins part as far as I can tell.  He was of valid rank to teach and do what he wanted independently.  These men did try to set him up and "destroy" him.  He was warned by his escrima friend that they had several men waiting to "jump" him in public and if he went well... he'd win and he'd go to jail, look a bully and bad person.  So, he didn't show up to the banquet.  The anti-grappling he incorporated was an issue.  It was new to WT and helped to take it to another level.  Leung Ting wanted to charge every WT sifu big money to learn it.  Emin did not.  He wanted all WT practicioners to be able to learn it reguardless of money.  All money politics.
Leung Ting couldn't discredit him publicly so he took away much of his students and schools.  Offering students "sifu" that weren't of the level to be ready of it.  Basically promoting people as a bribe to leave Emin while he split from Leung Ting's organization.  This worked quite well.  And Emin was hurting financially, emotionally, and as a teacher and martial artist.

Personally, my point of view on the entire mess is that these politics are what really hurt the arts.  All arts in general.  
People are made feel like they have to take "sides" on issues that really have nothing to do with them.  
These are human beings, Emin and Lueng Ting, and because they are in such a public spotlight people are creully judgemental of everything they do and say.  Personally, I concider both men, just men.  And don't base my life, training, or philosophys on either one.  
But, as a Woman I find that this environment is very detrimental to all, and see why there aren't many female sifus.  I would like to become good enough to be a sifu one day, but I really don't see this as practical for many reasons.  I see these behaviours as a "boys club" as do many other women, and I wouldn't play these games the way their being played.  
My husband teaches me, and he's a Level 5 technician. I can trust him to teach me right, and to do right by me.  If I were to train under another man I would not have this respect and trust for there is too much politicing and self interest involved in what many teachers do.  Not only because he's my husband, but because he's my best friend, and a man that see's what is going on here and has seperated himself from all of it.

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstien


----------



## Rook

DeLamar.J said:


> I know people personally who were refused by the Gracie family because the fight had no rules. They have certain rules that they play by, or they wont fight. I'm sure they would fight some street thugs with no rules, but I know they refuse challenges from reputable kung fu masters in no rules fighting.


 
This is simply and utterly false.  The Gracie have no-rules change that was and is open to anyone.  They have never declined to fight under no-rules conditions.


----------



## DeLamar.J

Rook said:


> This is simply and utterly false.  The Gracie have no-rules change that was and is open to anyone.  They have never declined to fight under no-rules conditions.


 You are a victim of what good media coverage can do. "we will fight under no rules, as long as you do it at our gym with 50 of our homeboys all aound you" Like the person above stated, they need to meet Emin on neutral ground. It will NEVER NEVER happen, because he is a reputable master, and right now ju jitsu is what sells, and once he beats them, now his art sells. Its comparable to electric cars, now the gas companies dominate with money and power, and will keep it that way for as long as possible with lies, lawyers, and media.
So what do they do, make it difficult, and then use lawyers, money and media to manipulate the situation. But in the end, the truth will rear its ugly head, it could take a lifetime though.


----------



## DeLamar.J

Also, the UFC has this "no rules" stigma that follows it around, when that is far from the truth. The UFC's rules benifit kickboxing/wrestling fighters. There are some real Kung Fu masters out there that would destroy all of the UFC competitors out there right now, but as I stated in another thread on Chinese secrecy, the PUBLIC, and the COURTS, are not ready for true Chinese martial arts. 
Chinese martial arts is very brutal, people can be maimed for life, even killed. The herd is not ready for this. The media will continue to manipulate all of you who dont see the truth.
I dont blame Emin for backing off, because the media will eat most anyone alive. The media will paint you a bad guy, and the herd will trample you. He understands this, so he backed off. I wish I was a good enough martial artist to back him, and had the money and connections to help expose everything, but unfortunately the most I can do is sit behind a computer screen and tell my side, and more than likely I will be taken as seriously as every other keyboard warrior out there, what a shame.


----------



## bcbernam777

Rook said:


> This is simply and utterly false.  The Gracie have no-rules change that was and is open to anyone.  They have never declined to fight under no-rules conditions.



Even though he has personal examples. Tunnel Vision is hazardous to your health


----------



## Rook

DeLamar.J said:


> Also, the UFC has this "no rules" stigma that follows it around, when that is far from the truth. The UFC's rules benifit kickboxing/wrestling fighters. There are some real Kung Fu masters out there that would destroy all of the UFC competitors out there right now, but as I stated in another thread on Chinese secrecy, the PUBLIC, and the COURTS, are not ready for true Chinese martial arts.
> Chinese martial arts is very brutal, people can be maimed for life, even killed. The herd is not ready for this. The media will continue to manipulate all of you who dont see the truth.
> I dont blame Emin for backing off, because the media will eat most anyone alive. The media will paint you a bad guy, and the herd will trample you. He understands this, so he backed off. I wish I was a good enough martial artist to back him, and had the money and connections to help expose everything, but unfortunately the most I can do is sit behind a computer screen and tell my side, and more than likely I will be taken as seriously as every other keyboard warrior out there, what a shame.


 
The UFC is not itself a no-rules contest and never was.  It is perhaps what sanshou contests are to CMA, perhaps a little more.  

If he would have fought and won repeatedly, "the media" would be on his side.  The people I see in the MMA world search for the best fighters and best methods as proven in recorded fights against competent opponents.


----------



## Rook

bcbernam777 said:


> Even though he has personal examples. Tunnel Vision is hazardous to your health


 
He repeated Boztepe's fantasy story.  The Gracie's open challenge is posted all over the internet and used to be posted all over the magazines... its not closed to anyone, Boztepe included.  If he had video of himself showing up at a Gracie's gym and being turned away, that would be different.  Instead, we just have him saying that they wouldn't fight him.


----------



## Journeyman

Here's the exchange of letters between the two sides of the Boztepe and Gracie/UFC flap.  http://groups.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/msg/763155976768b0ec?oe=UTF-8&output=gplain


----------



## Si-Je

Rook said:


> The UFC is not itself a no-rules contest and never was. It is perhaps what sanshou contests are to CMA, perhaps a little more.
> 
> If he would have fought and won repeatedly, "the media" would be on his side. The people I see in the MMA world search for the best fighters and best methods as proven in recorded fights against competent opponents.


 
It was when it first started.  I remember the old UFC, people got really hurt.  One guy got his whole side of his face caved in by elbow strikes.  It was disgusting.  Back in the day I think they only disallowed biting because of AIDS, but other than that it was anything goes, and the martial artists that used to compete went into the ring and came at eachother like their life and health depended on it.  
Now they fight like their afraid to get hit.  Their purse fighters, just like boxing now.  It's a business, a sport, very much like the boxing commission (which is all over UFC) and has brought the corruption with it too.

As for the MMA world looking for the "best" fighters in the world.  That's just not true.  Emin has fought in over 200 street fights and challenges, and has a reputation for winning all.  What they look for is fighters that are "marketable".  They all fight the same in UFC.  Hardly any have even studied a martial art, just MMA.  I remember when the term "mixed martial artist" didn't even exist, and if one was considered so then they had rank in at least two different arts.  These guys don't study, they train to box, wrestle, kickboxing in a gym all geared to train you for the rules of UFC cage fighting.

I really liked what Delmar said eariler.  The reference to oil companies and electric cars is a perfect senario, as well as the "mob" or "herd" mentality.  This is very prominant in America always has been.  People really aren't interested in truth as much as they are in whats the "fad".  Truth has never been very popular even worldwide, but here it's worse.
Maybe if I was a big strong guy I'd enjoy MMA and BJJ more and see more value in them as an art.  But, I'm not, and truely not interested in either for I've tried these techniques and they simply do not work for me against a larger attacker.  I find Wing Chun to be highly effecient, simple, direct, and quickly devastating.  We are also very desensitized as a culture and I've found that many MMA and BJJ stylists shrug off the thought of being hit repeatedly in the head face, and neck.  They train to take a couple of hits to get the take down, this will not work the way many think.

Check out this video of a WT stylist fighting in a pit fight.  It shows the effectiveness of WT against a larger opponent.  This is a real no holds barred fight (don't worry, it's not too gruewsome! lol!)  but it is pretty awesome.

http://comegetyousome.com/viewvid.php?id=428

Notice when the guy grabs him and picks him up why grappling isn't always a good idea.  The WT guy stays totally in form, and uses only Wing Chun the whole time.  no need for another art.


----------



## Si-Je

Journeyman said:


> Here's the exchange of letters between the two sides of the Boztepe and Gracie/UFC flap. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/msg/763155976768b0ec?oe=UTF-8&output=gplain


 

Those letters that were written back and forth are exactly the "boys game" I speak of in my earlier post, of that I wouldn't play.  My husband loves challenges, and fighting and competing.  I've already made plans as to how these will take place if they come up.  He's been challenged to fight at a masters tournament in the recent past, but I didn't want him to go.  It was a set up.  obviously.
Where the GM of the style had a couple of hundred of his "followers" and students, and black belts there, whereas my husband would just have me.
The Gracies want to operate like this as well.  
I found the reference to fighting at a police gym very amusing.  Not exactly a neutral place. lol!
Emin seems to be a pretty good guy, and he's very intelligent as well.  A true martial artist.  But, these letters quickly go nowhere.  And as I see it, gracies hiding behind the UFC.  I've seen video where they go to another martial artists school and fight.  But never without an all out "gang" of their own who hover around the fighters like vultures.  I don't find that acceptable either.  I don't know why the gracies didn't come to Emins school, or meet at the gyms of the martial arts magazines that he requested.  But it's really not that important.
Everyone's going to have their opinion on this as well as the Chueng fight, and why Emin left EWTO.  Again, the policticing in martial arts does the real damage to the arts.  Egos and reputations and blah, blah.  Maybe because I read alot of the Tao, and such I really see these situations and events differently than some.
I see lack of respect being given to either side in those letters, and as a woman see the attitudes differently.  
But, to me, it's all a great lesson.  Since my hubbie wants to compete, and accept challenge too.  Hopefully I'll be better prepared and know how to deal with such behavior if the occasion arises.  Which, unfortunately, it probably will, since we are opening a school in an area so saturated with BJJ, MMA, and TKD.  Again, he's a guy, and looks forward to it.  But, I shudder to think.  Yet see the necessity in educating the public to our art.  It's just a shame that people require so much psudo-truth and proof, like video and such.  If people could really just try something new and different and make up their own minds themselves all this mess wouldn't be necessary.


----------



## Rook

Si-Je said:


> It was when it first started.


 
No.  There were fines for biting and eye attacks from the beginning.  Eventually, there was a rule against biting, eye attacks and groin attacks, and then it expanded from there.  



> I remember the old UFC, people got really hurt. One guy got his whole side of his face caved in by elbow strikes. It was disgusting.


 
Elbow strikes to the face are still perfectly legal in the UFC and many other MMA organizations.  



> Back in the day I think they only disallowed biting because of AIDS, but other than that it was anything goes, and the martial artists that used to compete went into the ring and came at eachother like their life and health depended on it.
> Now they fight like their afraid to get hit. Their purse fighters, just like boxing now. It's a business, a sport, very much like the boxing commission (which is all over UFC) and has brought the corruption with it too.


 
The traditional martial artists are still welcome... they just can't win enough fights in the lower organizations to make it to the UFC anymore.  



> As for the MMA world looking for the "best" fighters in the world. That's just not true. Emin has fought in over 200 street fights and challenges, and has a reputation for winning all.


 
The thing is, everyone with internet acess can be believed to have won as many fights and they choose to type on their website.  Where is the record of any of these fights?  

(By the way, many bouncers can easily match the 200 street fights figure.)  




> What they look for is fighters that are "marketable". They all fight the same in UFC. Hardly any have even studied a martial art, just MMA. I remember when the term "mixed martial artist" didn't even exist, and if one was considered so then they had rank in at least two different arts. These guys don't study, they train to box, wrestle, kickboxing in a gym all geared to train you for the rules of UFC cage fighting.


 
They do study, just not a traditional art.  They study the techniques that are proven most effective to date... best practices rather than traditions.  Also, the majority of MMA gyms do train in things other than just the cage part, including the weapons drills and such.  



> I really liked what Delmar said eariler. The reference to oil companies and electric cars is a perfect senario, as well as the "mob" or "herd" mentality. This is very prominant in America always has been. People really aren't interested in truth as much as they are in whats the "fad". Truth has never been very popular even worldwide, but here it's worse.
> Maybe if I was a big strong guy I'd enjoy MMA and BJJ more and see more value in them as an art. But, I'm not, and truely not interested in either for I've tried these techniques and they simply do not work for me against a larger attacker. I find Wing Chun to be highly effecient, simple, direct, and quickly devastating. We are also very desensitized as a culture and I've found that many MMA and BJJ stylists shrug off the thought of being hit repeatedly in the head face, and neck. They train to take a couple of hits to get the take down, this will not work the way many think.


 
The thing is that it has worked and worked with a very high level of consistancy.  The only people who can stay standing long enough to land good strikes are highly capable grapplers using wrestling sprawls and takedown defences.  



> Check out this video of a WT stylist fighting in a pit fight. It shows the effectiveness of WT against a larger opponent. This is a real no holds barred fight (don't worry, it's not too gruewsome! lol!) but it is pretty awesome.
> 
> http://comegetyousome.com/viewvid.php?id=428
> 
> Notice when the guy grabs him and picks him up why grappling isn't always a good idea. The WT guy stays totally in form, and uses only Wing Chun the whole time. no need for another art.


 
What is the consistancy for these tactics though?


----------



## Si-Je

Rook said:


> What is the consistancy for these tactics though?


 

Did you see the video?  I'm not sure I understand what your asking.

I just stumbled on that video one day playing around, and was really happy to finally find a video of WT being used properly in a fight.

For the two WT guys that fought in UFC were not what I would call a good example of their art.  I'm not sure what they were doing, but I didn't see any WT being executed.  It's like they froze up or something.
Which can happen to the best of us. lol!


----------



## Journeyman

The problem with that video is that the Wing Chunner would have been slammed to the ground within the blink of an eye by anyone with even minimal skill at grappling.  Good job by the Wing Chunner at countering what was served up to him though.


----------



## ed-swckf

Journeyman said:


> The problem with that video is that the Wing Chunner would have been slammed to the ground within the blink of an eye by anyone with even minimal skill at grappling. Good job by the Wing Chunner at countering what was served up to him though.


 
You grapple then?


----------



## Si-Je

Journeyman said:


> The problem with that video is that the Wing Chunner would have been slammed to the ground within the blink of an eye by anyone with even minimal skill at grappling. Good job by the Wing Chunner at countering what was served up to him though.


 
see, that's what I mean.  I really don't see much of a chance for the guy to really take him to the ground.  He's getting pummled with fists and elbows.  He tried to take him to the ground but pain became a big distraction.  This is the desensitizing I'm talking about.  This is a bare knuckle fight, street pit fight.  Once the other guy is on the ground the crowd is kicking him.  You don't want to go to the ground.  bad scene.

I'm come across alot of grapplers that think this way.  They come to class and state that they can take us to the ground quickly.  Which by all means, they surely can!  very fast!

But, whe pull out the mats, and have them put on head gear with a metal face shield and go to town.  I've had grapplers sparr with me, and because of my size, sure, I sometimes get taken to the ground, but by then they've been hit, kicked, and kneed so many times they haven't been able to do much to me when we get to the ground.  Then with anti-grappling I get them off and am back on my feet.

Now, many times they find (with the gear on of course) that they cannot take me to the ground.  with the head gear on we can show them the force of the punching, heel kick, knees, elbowing, and such without hurting them.  It still moves and changes their balance and body direction when they go for the takedown, making them have to try to re-group and try another angle of attack.  All while their getting kicked, kneed, chain punched and elbowed.  It's harder than it seems to take someone down when your getting hit many times within seconds.


----------



## Journeyman

Not much anymore.  Rotator cuff problems limit me nowadays.  What was interesting to me in the video was shoulder leading, head across the opponent's body grappling attempt by the bigger guy(similar to the position presented in Guiterrez's Wing Tsun book if I recall correctly)--that was mistake number one.   Even so, he managed to lock his hands around the wing chunner's back, but he just picked him up and held him there--mistake number 2.  A grappler with even a little skill would have had him on the ground instantly from that position.


----------



## Journeyman

"You don't want to go to the ground. bad scene."  That's true in a streetfight, but if he didn't want to go to the ground he probably shouldn't have been grappling with the Wing Chunner at all.


----------



## Si-Je

Journeyman said:


> Not much anymore. Rotator cuff problems limit me nowadays. What was interesting to me in the video was shoulder leading, head across the opponent's body grappling attempt by the bigger guy(similar to the position presented in Guiterrez's Wing Tsun book if I recall correctly)--that was mistake number one. Even so, he managed to lock his hands around the wing chunner's back, but he just picked him up and held him there--mistake number 2. A grappler with even a little skill would have had him on the ground instantly from that position.


 

I've watched to old Gracie fights of UFC and BJJ challenges.  He just walks up to the opponent and grabs them above the waist and muscles them down that way.  Or they grab the neck and shoulders and just kinda sit down on the ground on their butt dragging the opponent on top of them.  not like they seem to do in MMA nowdays, where they shoot in lower and faster.
I think that's why Guiterrez uses that as a staple.  He was taught by Emin the anti-grappling.
Yet, I still think no.  a grappler would not be taking that guy to the ground, and if he did he'd be hurting bad.  But that's just my opinion.
When disgussing theoritacly what one fighter could do to another it's all just speculation.  There are many variables involved in a real fight that you cannot always forsee.  luck, bad luck, lol!, endurance, pain tolerance, will, etc.  It's too much like trying to bet on a horse race.  It's a gamble to guess and fun, but you won't know till it happens.


----------



## DeLamar.J

The bottom line is that the gracies will never fight Emin in a no rules fight, ever. They want him to join UFC, but why, I thought they were no rules fighters, and last I checked UFC has rules. Im sure Emin would have no problem meeting them on neutral ground in a street fight, but they will never do it.


----------



## bcbernam777

Rook said:


> He repeated Boztepe's fantasy story.  The Gracie's open challenge is posted all over the internet and used to be posted all over the magazines... its not closed to anyone, Boztepe included.  If he had video of himself showing up at a Gracie's gym and being turned away, that would be different.  Instead, we just have him saying that they wouldn't fight him.



ok if you haven't done earlier provide some links


----------



## Rook

DeLamar.J said:


> The bottom line is that the gracies will never fight Emin in a no rules fight, ever. They want him to join UFC, but why, I thought they were no rules fighters, and last I checked UFC has rules. Im sure Emin would have no problem meeting them on neutral ground in a street fight, but they will never do it.


 
If they were not going to fight him, he should have gone there and gotten them on tape cowering... I am certain that the Gracies would have fought him gladly however.  They have never backed down from their no-rules challenge to date, and I very much doubt that they would refuse to fight him either.


----------



## Rook

Si-Je said:


> I've watched to old Gracie fights of UFC and BJJ challenges. He just walks up to the opponent and grabs them above the waist and muscles them down that way. Or they grab the neck and shoulders and just kinda sit down on the ground on their butt dragging the opponent on top of them. not like they seem to do in MMA nowdays, where they shoot in lower and faster.


 
Different takedowns.  The older gracie fights tend to use "pulling guard" where they attain guard while the opponent is still standing and let gravity do the work.  They also can use relatively slow takedown because the opponents lack stability and wrestling defense.  The modern fighters are compelled to use better takedowns because that their opponents are all versed in wrestling sprawls and hence it is necessary to have highly developed wrestling takedowns.  



> I think that's why Guiterrez uses that as a staple. He was taught by Emin the anti-grappling.
> Yet, I still think no. a grappler would not be taking that guy to the ground, and if he did he'd be hurting bad. But that's just my opinion.
> When disgussing theoritacly what one fighter could do to another it's all just speculation. There are many variables involved in a real fight that you cannot always forsee. luck, bad luck, lol!, endurance, pain tolerance, will, etc. It's too much like trying to bet on a horse race. It's a gamble to guess and fun, but you won't know till it happens.


 
I am pretty certain that this fight represents a very much unskilled and possibly untrained opponent who gives no indication that he understands grappling even at the most rudimentary level.


----------



## ed-swckf

Journeyman said:


> Not much anymore. Rotator cuff problems limit me nowadays. What was interesting to me in the video was shoulder leading, head across the opponent's body grappling attempt by the bigger guy(similar to the position presented in Guiterrez's Wing Tsun book if I recall correctly)--that was mistake number one. Even so, he managed to lock his hands around the wing chunner's back, but he just picked him up and held him there--mistake number 2. A grappler with even a little skill would have had him on the ground instantly from that position.


 
I don't really trust this without personal experience, all it means to me right now is your opinion.  Its definitely not anything conclusive to me, and all i was asking was if you grappled.  I haven't even looked at the video and i am not interested in discussing the whole "if you do this i'll do that" scenario between different arts, its fruitless and seemingly builds walls between arts.  Both arts are extermely effective, both can counter each other, both are dependant on the skill level and exposure of the individuals and the how things go on the day.  I'm sorry if that comes off at all harsh but i am just wary of entering into this type of conversation as it degenerates every single time.   

Regards, 
ed


----------



## ed-swckf

DeLamar.J said:


> The bottom line is that the gracies will never fight Emin in a no rules fight, ever. They want him to join UFC, but why, I thought they were no rules fighters, and last I checked UFC has rules. Im sure Emin would have no problem meeting them on neutral ground in a street fight, but they will never do it.


 
Why does anyone even care about emin and the gracies?  Making a challenge fight proves what?  If the gracies loose what does that prove, absoloutely nothing, same if emin looses.  I'm hoping both parties understand this and hope that is the true reason they haven't made this notion a reality.  Fighting is negative and should only be resorted to when there is no other choice, if you choice to employ violence when there are numerous other choices then you have already failed.  People continually feed this ridiculous notion which brings noteriety to both camps which i'm sure they probably both enjoy but jesus guys, don't you think its all a little soap opera?  What i would like to see is people conducting themselves as martial artists not people making silly challenges for promotion that seems not very far removed from WWF or WWE or whatever.  I understand there is going to be promotion along side the sport fighting, thats an entertainment industry thing and thats fine i enjoy seeing a scrap on tv, thats peoples livliehoods etc.  But a no rules fight, for what?  seems that both gain very little.


----------



## Si-Je

I agree with you Ed.
That's pretty similar to what I stated in my earlier post.  The school we're opeing up will have a couple different martial arts being taught there, not just Wing Chun.  We have freinds in other arts and we would like to see the kung fu community more unified than so segregated.  

But as for MMA and other martial arts stylists "getting along".  I'm not sure this will happen.  MMA and BJJ are very new, competion oriented, and completely agressive in and out of the ring.  Their all about challenges and "proof" of their effectiveness.  This is how they operate.  and when given "proof" or whatever, they still won't believe what they see and truth.  Many make excuses for Royce Gracie losing his last fight, he's old, etc. whatever.  Alot of speculation goes on what one fighter can do and how they will beat another.  That seems to be the way of those styles.  They're very new, and I guess have alot to prove.
We have a couple of MMA/BJJ friends in the arts, but these guys are far less arrogant and combative about thier art, and thus, easier to get along with.  Usually when people hear we do Wing Chun, they either make fun, don't know what it is, challange, or state it as ineffective.  What can you do?  shrug it off usually.  These are many of the reasons Emin wanted to go ahead and accept the challenges to open people's minds, and to show them for what they are.  He's a good guy, just very idealistic, honest, and blunt.  Like a knight, he wants to fight for what he thinks is right.

You'd like the video I posted though.  It's just a good example of WT in a real conflict, which I haven't seen much of other than demos, instructional videos and such.
I didn't mean to use it to spark debate.  I ment to use it to show MMA stylists what WT actually looks like in a fight.  It seems many really don't know.  And that they think they can just walk up to a WT stylist and grapple them to the ground so easily.  But still, they do not accept.  That's why we have them put on the head gear and face shield when they come into our class to sparr.  So we can show them that they CAN'T TAKE the strikes to the head and still throw us to the ground.  But, I guess they really just have to feel it to believe it.


----------



## Journeyman

Didn't consider it harsh at all, ed.  I do encourage you to watch the video though.


----------



## ed-swckf

Si-Je said:


> I agree with you Ed.
> That's pretty similar to what I stated in my earlier post. The school we're opeing up will have a couple different martial arts being taught there, not just Wing Chun. We have freinds in other arts and we would like to see the kung fu community more unified than so segregated.


 
As time goes on the art becomes so insignificant, regardless of what it is.  I still train in wing chun and am pretty pure in that respect, i have friends in many other arts also and through this i do incorperate a lot of ideas of the effectiveness of other arts.  I wish you good luck in your new school.



Si-Je said:


> But as for MMA and other martial arts stylists "getting along". I'm not sure this will happen.


 
I'm not expecting them to get on per se, but look at what you wrote:  "Martial arts stylists" - what i mean is what is the sum of a martial artist?   




Si-Je said:


> MMA and BJJ are very new, competion oriented, and completely agressive in and out of the ring. Their all about challenges and "proof" of their effectiveness. This is how they operate. and when given "proof" or whatever, they still won't believe what they see and truth. Many make excuses for Royce Gracie losing his last fight, he's old, etc. whatever. Alot of speculation goes on what one fighter can do and how they will beat another. That seems to be the way of those styles. They're very new, and I guess have alot to prove.
> We have a couple of MMA/BJJ friends in the arts, but these guys are far less arrogant and combative about thier art, and thus, easier to get along with. Usually when people hear we do Wing Chun, they either make fun, don't know what it is, challange, or state it as ineffective. What can you do? shrug it off usually. These are many of the reasons Emin wanted to go ahead and accept the challenges to open people's minds, and to show them for what they are. He's a good guy, just very idealistic, honest, and blunt. Like a knight, he wants to fight for what he thinks is right.


 
Ok you concentrated on the negatives on the side of MMA and BJJ what about the negatives on the side of wing chun people?  This isn't one sided or the fault of BJJ/MMA people this whole issue is entertained and perpetuated by both sides. 




Si-Je said:


> You'd like the video I posted though. It's just a good example of WT in a real conflict, which I haven't seen much of other than demos, instructional videos and such.


 
I watched, i've seen it before and i'm not entirely convinced it isn't staged.

try this  



  or this  



 




Si-Je said:


> I didn't mean to use it to spark debate. I ment to use it to show MMA stylists what WT actually looks like in a fight. It seems many really don't know. And that they think they can just walk up to a WT stylist and grapple them to the ground so easily. But still, they do not accept. That's why we have them put on the head gear and face shield when they come into our class to sparr. So we can show them that they CAN'T TAKE the strikes to the head and still throw us to the ground. But, I guess they really just have to feel it to believe it.


 
the way i see it is takedowns can be very fast and grapplers are well prepared to take hits, so yes they will get hit they can even be stopped, or they can get through and take us to the ground.  There is no definite outcome, and yes that includes when we go to the ground, a wing chun guy may mangae to get the upper hand by applying wing chun principles or the BJJ guy may knock him the **** out.  Its a fight, and it comes down to the fighter not the art.  Its not paper scissors stone where paper always beats stone.  

I love wing chun it suits me down to the ground (no pun intended) but i respect all other arts as extremely effective and worthy arts and respect all other martial artists as people who i like to be associated with.  More importantly idon't base a persons skill and ability based on their art, i base it solely on them.


----------



## ed-swckf

Journeyman said:


> Didn't consider it harsh at all, ed. I do encourage you to watch the video though.


 
I did, you can read what i thought of it above, what it has to do with grappling i don't know as thats not how i view grappling to be preformed.


----------



## Si-Je

those are very good philosophies and attitudes to take, ed.
I am pretty aware of the arrogance on the sides of kung fu and wing chun stylists as well.  That's what we're branching away from with our school.

Thanks for the good wishes on our new school.  we're pretty excited, and nervous too.  

And I do agree with your attitude on fighting.  There's really no telling until it happens, many unknown variables.  And fighting is hardly ever a "good" idea.  It's really what we train to be able to handle if it arises, and handle quickly.  But, to avoid such is mostly the best policy.  Sometimes others don't let one back out of conflict.  But making oneself available to challeges and matches is really kinda the opposite of what martial arts is really about.  
I personally don't even like to compete in tournament.  I do on occasion to promote the school and the style, but my "heart" isn't really into competition.  I just don't care enough about it.  All I care about is being able to walk down the street without fear, or aprehnesion.  Being able to defend myself and my family.  But others may enjoy competion and conflict, and that's great for them.  Each to their own.


----------



## SilatFan

Delmar.J:

I know people personally who were refused by the Gracie family because the fight had no rules.   I know they refuse challenges from reputable kung fu masters in no rules fighting.
-Like who?  Where/how did you hear of this?


Also, the UFC has this "no rules" stigma that follows it around, when that is far from the truth. The UFC's rules benifit kickboxing/wrestling fighters. There are some real Kung Fu masters out there that would destroy all of the UFC competitors out there right now, but as I stated in another thread on Chinese secrecy, the PUBLIC, and the COURTS, are not ready for true Chinese martial arts.
-Again, like who?


In reference to Rooks opinion on the Gracie challenge:
You are a victim of what good media coverage can do. "we will fight under no rules, as long as you do it at our gym with 50 of our homeboys all aound you" Like the person above stated, they need to meet Emin on neutral ground.
-Or Emin can have them come to his gym.  Number of people present can always be decided.  Im sure Emin has capable students who could support him if its agreed to have an audience.  Also, its better for your students to actually SEE your fights rather then to HEAR about your (ehuh, cough, 200+) fights.  


The bottom line is that the gracies will never fight Emin in a no rules fight, ever. They want him to join UFC, but why, I thought they were no rules fighters, and last I checked UFC has rules.
-No they are professional athletes who also compete in MMA and teach a martial art.  Got to love how Emin could accept a open challenge from a smaller, older man and show up by surprise doing it but not go with a similar scenario with a mere GJJ instructor.  I mean its not even WT.  Wait a second.  The Gracies dont own a piece of the UFC.  Why do they want him to join it?


----------



## SilatFan

Si-Je:



He wrote to the owners of UFC and stated this and that he wanted to challenge Gracie. They wanted him to go through the UFC rules and rank up to the champion, Gracie.  
-What would have happened if he challenged Mike Tyson for the IBF HW title when he held it?  Hed be told to competed, win and work his way up to the champion as well.  No?

My husband teaches me, and he's a Level 5 technician. I can trust him to teach me right, and to do right by me.  If I were to train under another man I would not have this respect and trust for there is too much politicing and self interest involved in what many teachers do.
-Glad that you have trust in your husband.  To bad you feel that way about other male teachers.  But I wonder if its their prejudices or yours thatd keep you from learning the right way?


My husband loves challenges, and fighting and competing. I've already made plans as to how these will take place if they come up. He's been challenged to fight at a masters tournament in the recent past, but I didn't want him to go. It was a set up. obviously.  Where the GM of the style had a couple of hundred of his "followers" and students, and black belts there, whereas my husband would just have me.
The Gracies want to operate like this as well.
-I love this excuse.  Have you ever seen or even heard of someone getting jumped by one of the Gracies gang?  Pathetic excuse.  You can and could put a limit on the people present or if youre an accomplished martial artist like Emin you could bring your own students.  On a side note what do you think all those bystanders would do to your husband at the tournament?  


Notice when the guy grabs him and picks him up why grappling isn't always a good idea. The WT guy stays totally in form, and uses only Wing Chun the whole time. no need for another art.
-Lol! I dont believe anyone here stated grappling was always good.   I think your comment for the video should be that grappling BADLY isnt always a good idea (actually it never is).   If you want to use video to demonstrate WTs or WCs effectiveness maybe look to the Emin/W.Cheung video.  At least there you have two know entities in a fight and not a WT guy and a grappler whose skill sets are unknown. Or would you say Emin is also a better grappler than those MMA or BJJ types who shrug off the thought of being hit repeatedly in the head face, and neck.  At least your not making assumptions about those MMA/BJJ types.


It's just a shame that people require so much psudo-truth and proof, like video and such. If people could really just try something new and different and make up their own minds themselves all this mess wouldn't be necessary.
-Maybe they have tried and they just dont agree with you?



But as for MMA and other martial arts stylists "getting along". I'm not sure this will happen. MMA and BJJ are very new, competion oriented, and completely agressive in and out of the ring.
-Your opinion.  But at least your understanding of THEIR insecurities.


Their all about challenges and "proof" of their effectiveness. This is how they operate. and when given "proof" or whatever, they still won't believe what they see and truth.
-Proof like that grppler vs a WT practitioner video?  Lol!  I have a video of a mediocre Turkish wrestler taking down and beating up an old Chinese W C guy.  Now thats proof.


 Many make excuses for Royce Gracie losing his last fight, he's old, etc. whatever.
-Huh?  What does a MMA fighter losing to another MMA fighter have to do with this?  Has Matt Hughes been training with Emin?  Is that how Emin decided to get the Gracies?  LOL!!!


----------



## DeLamar.J

ed-swckf said:


> Why does anyone even care about emin and the gracies?  Making a challenge fight proves what?  If the gracies loose what does that prove, absoloutely nothing, same if emin looses.  I'm hoping both parties understand this and hope that is the true reason they haven't made this notion a reality.  Fighting is negative and should only be resorted to when there is no other choice, if you choice to employ violence when there are numerous other choices then you have already failed.  People continually feed this ridiculous notion which brings noteriety to both camps which i'm sure they probably both enjoy but jesus guys, don't you think its all a little soap opera?  What i would like to see is people conducting themselves as martial artists not people making silly challenges for promotion that seems not very far removed from WWF or WWE or whatever.  I understand there is going to be promotion along side the sport fighting, thats an entertainment industry thing and thats fine i enjoy seeing a scrap on tv, thats peoples livliehoods etc.  But a no rules fight, for what?  seems that both gain very little.


I care because the gracies claim they fight under no rules, and exept any challenge. When I know personally people who have been refused by the Gracies. I know Emin will beat any of them under no rules. The refuse because they know that they will loose, but still sit back and claim we exept any one, and we will fight with no rules. 
They are liars, and liars need to be exposed by martial arts masters who  really do fight with no rules. For me, its just that they claim something that isnt true, I have more respect for fighters who dont compete because they dont believe in it rather than the ones who make false claims. 
That is my only issue.


----------



## ed-swckf

DeLamar.J said:


> I care because the gracies claim they fight under no rules, and exept any challenge. When I know personally people who have been refused by the Gracies.


 
Where to they claim this incidently?





DeLamar.J said:


> I know Emin will beat any of them under no rules.


 

No, you don't know that, no one will know the result until it happens and even then it isn't conclusive its just what happened on the day.



DeLamar.J said:


> The refuse because they know that they will loose, but still sit back and claim we exept any one, and we will fight with no rules.


 
They don't know they will lose just as you don't know emin would win.  Have you got eveidence of the challenges made, correspondance between gracies and the challengers and a statement where the gracies say they will fight anyone with no rules?  Its all very inconclusive at the moment.




DeLamar.J said:


> They are liars, and liars need to be exposed by martial arts masters who really do fight with no rules.


 
To expose them you need conclusive evidence not just hearsay, as far as i know you might just have a dislike for them for a million and one other reasons or even the information you have is from lies.  If you are seriously interested in outing and exposing them then i think you could go about it in a better way.




DeLamar.J said:


> For me, its just that they claim something that isnt true, I have more respect for fighters who dont compete because they dont believe in it rather than the ones who make false claims. That is my only issue.


 
for me i need to have evidence before i believe either their claims or yours are true.  If you really do care about this then prove it because it really does seem to be degenerating to petty online bitchiness.  I would love to read a well researched and and conclusive account that dispells any myth rather than further perpetuating myth.


----------



## DeLamar.J

No one can prove a damn thing either way.


----------



## bcbernam777

DeLamar.J said:


> No one can prove a damn thing either way.



Thats what i love about facts, you can make them prove whatever you want


----------



## ed-swckf

DeLamar.J said:


> No one can prove a damn thing either way.


 
If its all unproven how can you a) make the accusations you have and b) even begin to entertain the accusations others have made.  Of course if you really wanted to you could prove things, it would take a lot of work and i don't think anyone really cares that much as most of this is just gossip.


----------



## monji112000

1. Most people don't care.
2. Time should be spent training, more than this BS topic.
3. Having a open challenge isn't something new, or something that exciting.
From what I read and have been told its a very common thing. I have heard many first hand, and second hand recounts. I know of one book that talks about a few first hand accounts by a Disciple of Ip man.  

Its all just gossip.. anyway 

Both are very good Martial arts. The Gracie family have done allot for Martial arts as a whole.


----------



## DeLamar.J

bcbernam777 said:


> Thats what i love about facts, you can make them prove whatever you want


Yea, facts. Like what you read or see on the news. Its a fact, it must be true.


----------



## Si-Je

SilatFan said:


> Si-Je:
> -What would have happened if he challenged Mike Tyson for the IBF HW title when he held it? He&#8217;d be told to competed, win and work his way up to the &#8220;champion&#8221; as well. No?



why would he want to? lol! I think you've missed the point of the Gracie and Emin conflict.  Besides, he'd just get his ear bit off!  





SilatFan said:


> -Glad that you have trust in your husband. To bad you feel that way about other male teachers. But I wonder if it&#8217;s their prejudices or yours that&#8217;d keep you from learning the &#8220;right&#8221; way??




My teachers in the past have been pretty good when it came to martial arts, but really bad when it came to basic morals.  Plus, the way a man will fight will differ from the way a woman or a smaller person needs to fight.  My past styles were taught by big strong men who depend on strength and their large size.  So, I've had to alter the techniques so they would work for me.  Example.  Japanese Ju-Jitsu throwing/judo.  these guys taught me technique using almost all back and arm strength.  I had to figure out the proper technique to throw these 200 lbs guys on my own through trial and error.  And the error was the way they were teaching.  For again, my husband has rank in Judo and confirms this, and was upset I had to figure out the proper techniques by myself.  Plus, the federation was dirty, and so were the senior black belts.  It happens, believe it.





SilatFan said:


> -I love this excuse. Have you ever seen or even heard of someone getting jumped by one of the Gracie&#8217;s &#8220;gang&#8221;? Pathetic excuse. You can and could put a limit on the people present or if you&#8217;re an accomplished martial artist like Emin you could bring your own students. On a side note what do you think all those bystanders would do to your husband at the tournament?


 
He's already fought these types of GJJ people, friend.  no big deal.  As for the Gracie "gang", yes, I have heard of these GJJ people "jumping" folks at their very own schools.  They bully, insult, and try to goad people to fight.  It's really childish.  And as for the "bystanders" at this tournament, they were all "masters" of their art, black belts under the others guy system.  Not exactly bystanders.  It was a "masters tournament" remember?  This guy has been trying to get us to join his federation for two years.  He wants 20% of our monthly profits from teaching WC, he's a TKD instructor, what would we do that for?  Just because he's a "grand master" of whatever?  Since we won't join him, he's done everything in is peudo power to cause us trouble with the school and in our personal lives.  He has many schools in our area, and we're not sure why he wants us to joing so bad.  The guy is a hustler, and trying to muscle in on our school, style, and family business.  So what do I think he'd actually DO if he went to the tournament?  I'm not sure, but it will be something I couldn't quite forsee, I don't think like this guy does.  He's dishonest, money motivated, and has a huge head (ego), and I don't trust him at all.
  I just used that as an example of what not to get involved in if your smart.  If you know someone's trying to use you for reputation, money or whatever gain.  Like Emin, he wanted more equal ground.  And we will have it soon to deal with this issue, if it doesn't take care of itself on it's own.
 



SilatFan said:


> Lol! I don&#8217;t believe anyone here stated grappling was &#8220;always good.&#8221; I think your comment for the video should be that &#8220;grappling BADLY isn&#8217;t always a good idea&#8221; (actually it never is). If you want to use video to demonstrate WT&#8217;s or WC&#8217;s effectiveness maybe look to the Emin/W.Cheung video. At least there you have two know entities in a fight and not a WT guy and a &#8220;grappler&#8221; whose skill sets are unknown. Or would you say Emin is also a better grappler than those MMA or BJJ types who &#8220;





SilatFan said:


> shrug off the thought of being hit repeatedly in the head face, and neck.&#8221; At least your not making assumptions about those MMA/BJJ types.




I'll try to hit on a couple of points here.  Emin was a Turkish wrestler at the time of the Cheung fight.  people keep refering to this fight as a demonstration of his "grappling skill".  It is in a way, but Turkish wrestling is NOT "grappling" so to compare it to such is ignorance.  He took Chueng to the ground because he knew that was his weakness, plain and simple.  As for Turkish wrestling, I know nothing about that art, and neither does anyone elese here that I've seen, or they haven't spoken up.  so how can anyone judge?  don't judge things you cannot understand.  simple.  
If a video of a pit fight isn't good enough for you to see the effectiveness of WT then, You seem to base alot of your opinions on the outcomes of UFC fights.  sad.  The guys that were claiming to be VT or WT in the early UFC years I really don't care about or am very impressed.  I never saw them use a hint of Wing Chun in their fights.  Just like any other art, their are quality schools and weak schools.
Plus, if that guy actually got the WT fighter to the ground in that pit fight the crowd would have just stomped his head most likely like they did when he was taken to the ground.  Grappling, is it EVER a really good idea in the street?  That is the true question.




SilatFan said:


> -Huh? What does a MMA fighter losing to another MMA fighter have to do with this? Has Matt Hughes been training with Emin? Is that how Emin decided to get the Gracies? LOL!!!


 
It proves my point that no matter how many times they lose, people still think the Gracies are the "best".  Royce has lost a couple of times before that fight.  His fighters have been beaten on many occasions.  But, you never see video of those fights.  No, darlin' they only post videos where they win.  It's all propoganda to me, media blather and playing to the masses to get what they want.  money.  I choose not to play those games, and make others that do play them wealthy, neither does Emin.  I just find it very unfortunate that so many wish to try to fight this way, especially women.  MMA for women is really not a great idea.  Unless they want to train and get fit like a professional boxer and compete in the sport.  Or smaller people for that matter.  (which I happen to be both, lol! at 5'5 112lbs.)  _It's been my experience that I need pure technique, speed, timing, and adaptablity.  Not strength, brute force, and over confidence in techniques that "should" work for me because they work for other big strong men who train all day everyday, have the best personal trainers money can buy, the best available diet, and who are purse fighters for a living.  Reality check.  That's not me, or my even possible lifestyle, so why try to emulate it in my training?_


----------



## Si-Je

I really think it is odd and a little sad that people can't let these things go in the past.  the chueng fight and the gracie thing.  
Both happened over ten years ago, and people are still buzzing about them, like any of us know what REALLY happened.
Origionally, Yip man Sifu wanted to know why Emin left EWTO and these two incidents get brought up.  Neither had anything to do with it.
My hubbie was a senior student of Emins right before the split with EWTO, and he knows most of what really went on with the split, and the gracies too.  Two totally different issues.
The internet is very powerful tool, for communication, or information.  But, it also causes consequences.  Positive and Negative.  I like these forums because it gives me insight to peoples thoughts, ideas, and opinions.
But, this is what helped to prompt Emin to challenge the Gracies.  Forums and magazine threats and challenges, gossip, and speculation.  He just wanted to "clear the air", but found that that wasn't going to work.  
Read the letters that they wrote to each other that was posted earlier.  very enlightening, if their real.  lol!  Check your sources, just to be sure.  
As for me and mine.  We really aren't that affected by all this.  We're independent of any federation, and going to stay so for these very reasons.  We teach, we train, we help kids, friends, family, and are doing well outside of the "lineage" deal or federated umbrella.  We like it out here.  It allows us to be objective, and to not take sides so much without checking facts and allows us to hear both sides in a more objective manner.  Yes, I have my opinions on these matters, but their MINE.  Developed by me, an not soley based on my teachers, school, lineage, or whatever.


----------



## Journeyman

I think part of the problem was that the Cheung incident gave people the idea that Boztepe was someone who could be goaded into confrontations.   There's not only the Cheung and Gracie situations; there's also an incident involving Chris Dolman(who supposedly challenged Boztepe at a seminar Boztepe was giving--the fight didn't happen, but once again what happened at the seminar is disputed) and a problem between Boztepe and Bas Rutten(which apparently was instigated by a martial arts writer telling them that each had been going around making challenges about the other--Boztepe and Rutten seem to have settled that amicably.)  The internet feeds these things, and often misinformation amplifies the problem.    Speaking of misinformation, I've seen comments on other websites that the video Si-Je posted is from the movie 'Pit Fighter'.  It's not.  I've seen 'Pit Fighter' and while the Wing Chun guy in the video bears a slight resemblance to the lead actor, there's nothing even vaguely like that video in the movie.


----------



## Si-Je

no, no.  I never said it was from a movie.  It's from a website that posts many street fights and candid camra stuff, from a "real" pit fight.
I've never even heard of this "pit fighter" movie.  
I just said it was a clip of a guy "in" a real pit fight.  
goodness.


----------



## Journeyman

I know you didn't say it was from the movie.  People on other websites had said that even before you had posted the link here.


----------



## Si-Je

oh!
well, that was totally NOT my intention!  But your right about people's conjecture and speculation.  I say one thing, people read another totally.  I've come across this on a couple of different boards.  It is a good example of the + and -'s of the web, and just when people talk to eachother as well.  
Misunderstandings are so easily come by.  I didn't know Emin and Bas has issues because of this sort of thing either.  Was that pretty recent?
I guess it doesn't matter much, it just goes to show the power of communication and the internet, media, etc.


----------



## Journeyman

From the comments on the newsgroups,  it looks like the Rutten/Boztepe thing was going on around 1999.  The link to the interview with Bas doesn't work anymore, but here's the relevant excerpt:  Fredrik : There were talks about a challenge fight between you and Wing Tsun-fighter Emin Boztepe after an interview you did with me for Action Sports. How did it end?       Bas Rutten : I have been to a seminar from Emin with a writer from Black Belt, an attorney, a lawyer and Marco Ruas. I told him that I was there because I heard that he challenged me on the street (which was of course not true) and that because of that I was there to fight him. He told me that he never challenged me but that I challenged him. I said that that was not true either because I didn't know him. Anyway, we went up to his office and there we called the guy who wrote everything in the magazine and we found out that this guy made up the whole thing and blew some things up too. Emin said that he wouldn't have a problem fighting me but that it had to be for a right reason. And he is right, if he didn't say but somebody else made it up like he said, then there is no reason to fight.


----------



## Cthulhu

I've got my opinions on the Boztepe/Cheung incident, but that was a long time ago.

I don't give a rat's about Boztepe/Gracie.

The Boztepe/EWTO thing is just friggin' politics, so a waste of time.

But someone way back on page 2 or 3 of this thread compared Boztepe to Bruce Lee.  Now that's just stupid.

Cthulhu


----------



## SilatFan

why would he want to? lol! I think you've missed the point of the Gracie and Emin conflict. Besides, he'd just get his ear bit off! 
   --The point is you wrote Royce was hiding behind the UFC when the UFC's response to Emin's request to face Royce was for Emin to compete before he faced the "champion."




He's already fought these types of GJJ people, friend. no big deal. 
     --If he's already faced these "GJJ types" and it's "no big deal" why not just face an actual Gracie?  Also, if facing a "GJJ type" (however vague that description is) is valid enough to prove that WT vs GJJ why is it that a specific person, with a documented lineage in WT competing in the UFC is a inadequate demonstration of WT vs GJJ?



And as for the "bystanders" at this tournament, they were all "masters" of their art, black belts under the others guy system. Not exactly bystanders. It was a "masters tournament" remember? 
  --Look up the word.  It has nothing to do with your MA rank.




Regarding the Emin/W. Cheung video: 
I'll try to hit on a couple of points here. Emin was a Turkish wrestler at the time of the Cheung fight. people keep refering to this fight as a demonstration of his "grappling skill". It is in a way, but Turkish wrestling is NOT "grappling" so to compare it to such is ignorance.
  -- Huh?  There is a referee, they attempt to pin their opponent, they have a uniform (leather pants), its the national sport of Turkey, there is a national tournament held every July, they start standing, clinch and progress from there.  Please explain the difference between grappling and Turkish wrestling.  




If a video of a pit fight isn't good enough for you to see the effectiveness of WT then, You seem to base alot of your opinions on the outcomes of UFC fights. sad.
--The point is that you continue to reference a video of two men with unsubstantiated skill sets and experience (one a WT guy and one a grappler) as proof but when two KNOWN individuals with KNOWN skill sets and KNOWN lineages (Emin/Cheung) get into a fight and its caught on video thats not as valid a piece of evidence?   



 The guys that were claiming to be VT or WT in the early UFC years I really don't care about or am very impressed. I never saw them use a hint of Wing Chun in their fights.  
  --How is it that they (in the UFC) are just claiming to be WT practitioners but a guy (in a nightclub tough man/Pit Fighter video) is most certainly a grappler?  




. if that guy actually got the WT fighter to the ground in that pit fight the crowd would have just stomped his head most likely like they did when he was taken to the ground.
 --Never mind me watching too much MMA.  Someones been watching too many Steven Segal B movies.  




 Grappling, is it EVER a really good idea in the street? That is the true question.
--If you want to know how to get back up, yes it is.  If you want to learn how NOT to be held down and repeatedly struck by someone with only 2 years of high school wrestling, yes.  Otherwise, no.   

Regarding Matt Hughes beating Royce Gracie and what that has to do with this thread: 
It proves my point that no matter how many times they lose, people still think the Gracies are the "best".
--Who wrote that?  Besides we all know Emin is the best.  Hed beat those gracies in a heartbeat but they are to afraid to fight him (you, me and Delmar.j know that).  I mean who have they ever fought?  Emin fought that older, smaller WC/WT guy.  Now thats putting it on the line! 



Royce has lost a couple of times before that fight. His fighters have been beaten on many occasions. But, you never see video of those fights. No, darlin' they only post videos where they win.
-- uhm, Yes Royce has lost before Matt Huges.  Who exactly does Royce train for MMA?   And I believe that Ive seen GJJ/BJJ practitioner lose before in MMA.  Are you saying the UFC, Pride, KOTC and the like edit out all these loses?  



 It's all propoganda to me, media blather and playing to the masses to get what they want. money.
--You mean like putting a video on the internet of a younger, bigger Turkish guy beating up a smaller, older Chinese guy?  I hear ya!



 I choose not to play those games, and make others that do play them wealthy, neither does Emin.
--You got that one right!


----------



## bcbernam777

this thread is done man


----------



## Si-Je

SilatFan said:


> why would he want to? lol! I think you've missed the point of the Gracie and Emin conflict. Besides, he'd just get his ear bit off! 
> --The point is you wrote Royce was hiding behind the UFC when the UFC's response to Emin's request to face Royce was for Emin to compete before he faced the "champion."




He is.  He's fought others without the UFC prelims.





SilatFan said:


> Also, if facing a "GJJ type" (however vague that description is) is valid enough to prove that WT vs GJJ why is it that a specific person, with a documented lineage in WT competing in the UFC is a inadequate demonstration of WT vs GJJ?


Documented lineage will not win the fight for you.  When people get hung up on this lineage thing makes me feel like we're talking about dog petigree. lol!





SilatFan said:


> -- Huh? There is a referee, they attempt to pin their opponent, they have a uniform (leather pants), its the national sport of





SilatFan said:


> Turkey, there is a national tournament held every July, they start standing, clinch and progress from there. Please explain the difference between grappling and Turkish wrestling.



Told you, I don't know anything about turkish wrestling, to compare it would be folly.  I just know it's not grappling.





SilatFan said:


> --The point is that you continue to reference a video of two men with unsubstantiated skill sets and experience (one a WT guy and one a grappler) as proof but when two KNOWN individuals with KNOWN skill sets and KNOWN lineages (Emin/Cheung) get into a fight and its caught on video thats not as valid a piece of evidence?


 
Evidence to what?  That two WT/WC guys got in a fight?  big deal.  happens often I hear.





SilatFan said:


> --How is it that they (in the UFC) are just claiming to be WT practitioners but a guy (in a nightclub tough man/Pit Fighter video) is most certainly a grappler?


 
darlin', I didn't say he was most certianly a grappler, just that he 'tried" to grapple him to the ground.







SilatFan said:


> --. if that guy actually got the WT fighter to the ground in that pit fight the crowd would have just stomped his head most likely like they did when he was taken to the ground.





SilatFan said:


> --Never mind me watching too much MMA. Someones been watching too many Steven Segal B movies.


 
If you watch the end of the clip, the crowd does stomp and kick the poor guy's head as he's on the ground.  As for Segal, groovy, groovy man!
And a fellow Wing Chunner now.  Pretty neat. lol!





SilatFan said:


> --. Regarding Matt Hughes beating Royce Gracie and what that has to do with this thread:





SilatFan said:


> It proves my point that no matter how many times they lose, people still think the Gracies are the "best".
> --Who wrote that? Besides we all know Emin is the best. Hed beat those gracies in a heartbeat but they are to afraid to fight him (you, me and Delmar.j know that). I mean who have they ever fought? Emin fought that older, smaller WC/WT guy. Now thats putting it on the line!


 

Just because that's the only time you've ever seen Emin fight doesn't mean that's the only guy he's fought.  Emin doesn't travel around with a camra and challenge people like the Gracies.  He's had 200-300 street fights and challenges, the guy is no hack. Again, just because he doesn't have video of every single fight to prove to people like you, all you focus on is the one Chueng video.  






SilatFan said:


> --. Royce has lost a couple of times before that fight. His fighters have been beaten on many occasions. But, you never see video of those fights. No, darlin' they only post videos where they win.





SilatFan said:


> -- uhm, Yes Royce has lost before Matt Huges. Who exactly does Royce train for MMA? And I believe that Ive seen GJJ/BJJ practitioner lose before in MMA. Are you saying the UFC, Pride, KOTC and the like edit out all these loses?



Oh, just stop.  all you want to do is argue.  You quote me stating that they only post videos of when they win, this is a true statement.  and then state something totally unrealated.  I've never seen the Shamrock and Gracie fought replayed again, when he beat Gracie in a 45 min. fight on the ground.  (granted it is kinda borring) lol!  






SilatFan said:


> --It's all propoganda to me, media blather and playing to the masses to get what they want. money.





SilatFan said:


> --You mean like putting a video on the internet of a younger, bigger Turkish guy beating up a smaller, older Chinese guy? I hear ya!



Again, get off it.  There are "older smaller Chinese guys" that could give Emin a great run for their money.  Fungs master for one, you can't touch that guy.  WT/WC doesn't work like that.  Plus, no one made any money off that silly fight.  You should check out Emin's interviews on the situation, there you could hear it from him on both the Chueng fight and the Gracie deal.  



I do believe your right, this thread is done.  I've been on a couple of boards and people talk these incidents to death.  It really gets no where and proves nothing.  I've watched the interviews, talked to people that are directly linked to Emin, and read the stuff online.  I've made up my own mind after checking out what facts are available to me.  These opinions of mine are NOT just based on some stupid fight clip between two WC stylists, or on what people say on boards.  
But if you want to base your opinions on these things, that's your choice and free will.  But baiting arguement and such is not going to get anyone anywhere.


----------



## Si-Je

oh man! and you train silat, of course.  Well, I won't bother you anymore about wing chun principles or tactics.  I should have checked your profile sooner.  This thread is done.  All to be said has been said and then some.
Have a Groovy day!


----------



## SilatFan

Si-Je said:


> oh man! and you train silat, of course. ....


LOL!  What gave me away?


----------



## Si-Je

I thought you may have trained some wing chun too.  And we had kinda gotten off topic talking about martial art technique.  This is a very controversial topic to people of all arts and I've found it difficult to explain and describe wing chun technique to other stylists online.  You practically have to write a "book". lol!   
The techniques and principles are very simple in concept, but you don't realize the full potiential and effectiveness until you feel it, do it, and train it.  I didn't mean to come off snobby or mean, I just made an assumption before looking at the arts you take. 
But the political aspects of Sifu Emin's reputation and martial art career are can be discussed without Wing Chun theory.  I just think it very unfair that people are so brutally judgemental of people of his stature.  Emin, Chueng, the Gracies, whoever, their all human beings, with flaws and strengths.  Because of their high profiles, people expect more from them, which it is right to ask more of a "master", but I think it gets out of hand at times.  And people forget that these people are really just men, people too.  And they respond to situations like a human would.
With Chueng, Emin was young and idealistic.
With the Gracies, Emin was insulted and maybe a bit defensive.
With Leung Ting, Emin was betrayed, hurt, and had to start all over.
These are all human feelings, and he delt with them the best he knew how at the time and probably has learned from these experiences and grown from them.  Moved on.
I know that I probably wouldn't have delt with these situations any better, and most likely far worse. lol!  I have a pretty rough temper that I try to control, and a pretty blunt view of dealing with folks that give me trouble.   I think he's shown pretty good restraint, diplomacy, honesty, and fortitude, all things considered.  But, that's just one person's opinion of another.


----------



## SilatFan

Si-Je said:


> I thought you may have trained some wing chun too. And we had kinda gotten off topic talking about martial art technique. This is a very controversial topic to people of all arts and I've found it difficult to explain and describe wing chun technique to other stylists online. You practically have to write a "book". lol!
> The techniques and principles are very simple in concept, but you don't realize the full potiential and effectiveness until you feel it, do it, and train it. I didn't mean to come off snobby or mean, I just made an assumption before looking at the arts you take.


 
I dont feel a particular need to put my entire martial arts resume on the profile.  Id guess most people here dont as well.  My personal focus now is on the Chinese/Dutch/Indonesian arts as well as grappling.  But I have previously studied Wing Chun under 2 different instructors/lineages for a limited time.  The excessive reiteration of how much better their methods were than other arts, especially MMA/BJJ, as opposed to what I saw and felt led me to eventually move on.  I just felt like, at worst, it was mostly hype and at best it was comparing apples to oranges.  It doesnt mean that I discard the art but there is only so much time in the day and you try to use your time as best as you can.  I understand what youre trying to say as far as the technical expression of WC/WT.  I just dont agree with the conclusion or how the argument is framed.  No big deal, right?  Just my opinion.


----------



## Si-Je

I've come across that attitude with wing chuners as well.  When I first started learning the art from my husband he came off really arrogant to me about the superiority of wing chun and it burned me pretty good.  I'd taken several other arts previously, and no one likes to hear that what they've spent years studying is inferior.  We argued from time to time, and as I kept studying I kinda saw his point of view. 
He's got rank in Kempo, Judo, Kendo, and whatever he learned in the marine corps, so his point of view wasn't totally without merrit.

But, we really try not to get so snobbish about the effectiveness of wing chun over some other styles.  I guess we come off that way sometimes because we can counter some of the more popular styles pretty effortlessly using WC.  WC's simplicity and directness just makes it quicker to counter.

Actually, the school we're opening up will have a few other styles being taught other than wing chun, and we encourage students to learn about the other styles too.  Zapota and Kempo will be available to learn at the "kwoon" we're opening.

But for me, wing chun just works the best out of all the other arts i've taken.  It's the first art where I actually generate real power in my punching, I don't have to throw or grapple a stronger opponent, the techniques are so simple (it's mindboggling sometimes how simple) and seem to fit my body type and small stature very well.  I've even continued training throughout my pregnancy without difficulty.

Now, WT on the other hand doesn't seem to work for me as well at times as the WC.  Small differences in movements make a big difference when your short and a featherweight like me. lol!
My hubbies a big man and he uses more WT to move straight into an opponent, while if I do that at times I've actually ended up smacking right into some big guys chest face first. ouch!  lol!

With the WC there's more pivoting and utilization of angles for a smaller person against a very big opponent.  Again, just small differences that make the world of difference when I'm doing technique against someone who would knock my block off with one strike.  I don't have alot of room for error.

We train with MMA guys and grapplers from time to time and it's a good work out, good training for us.  But personally, I wouldn't fight that way.  Too much dependance on strength (which I don't have! lol!) and effort.  
I kinda call WC the "lazy art" because you stay so relaxed, more so than any art i've taken.

But I understand how much of a "turn off" it is when a teacher constantly preaches to you how wing chun is the best.  We truely try not to do that, and just concentrate on teaching the technique.  It takes so long to really get into the "meat" of WC, that to preach would waste the students valuable time.  Plus, we seem to practice more application, light sparring, sparring with gear on, than many other schools do, which the students really like.  That way they can constantly experiment and test the techniques we teach.


----------



## monji112000

SilatFan said:


> The excessive reiteration of how much better their methods were than other arts, especially MMA/BJJ, as opposed to what I saw and felt led me to eventually move on.



Common sense should be you determining factor, not what people say. If someone can't do it with someone in a "realistic" position.. then don't waste your time. 

I personally don't consider someone with limp arms, soft attacks, rolling over with just a push ect.. realistic. BUT HEY thats just me  


 I have been told that Ip man himself didn't believe that one style was better than another. Each had their own merits.


----------



## Shogun

I don't know why, but it seems people are using the word "grappling" to describe someone who grabs, instead of one of the various studies of such.



> But, whe pull out the mats, and have them put on head gear with a metal face shield and go to town. I've had grapplers sparr with me, and because of my size, sure, I sometimes get taken to the ground, but by then they've been hit, kicked, and kneed so many times they haven't been able to do much to me when we get to the ground. Then with anti-grappling I get them off and am back on my feet.


 
let me give you an example. I am by no means the best grappler. but I hold a blue belt in gracie jiu-jitsu and have been wrestling 10 years. I have also sparred with WT people so I have that exp. I was sparring with one of the technician ranks (is that right?). I told him he could strike me to defend takedowns. now, he wasn't going to hit me full contact, but to be fair, I wouldn't strike back..only grapple. he assumed position, I shot in, ate a VERY light elbow to the shoulder, and KOed him temporarily with my double leg. I then mounted and head and arm choked him. this is one example of a real grappler as opposed to that guy in the video who simply picked up the street fighting WT guy.


----------



## bcbernam777

Shogun said:


> I don't know why, but it seems people are using the word "grappling" to describe someone who grabs, instead of one of the various studies of such.
> 
> 
> 
> let me give you an example. I am by no means the best grappler. but I hold a blue belt in gracie jiu-jitsu and have been wrestling 10 years. I have also sparred with WT people so I have that exp. I was sparring with one of the technician ranks (is that right?). I told him he could strike me to defend takedowns. now, he wasn't going to hit me full contact, but to be fair, I wouldn't strike back..only grapple. he assumed position, I shot in, ate a VERY light elbow to the shoulder, and KOed him temporarily with my double leg. I then mounted and head and arm choked him. this is one example of a real grappler as opposed to that guy in the video who simply picked up the street fighting WT guy.



And I am sure there are plenty of Story's on the other side of the camp too.


----------



## Shogun

Yeah, there is. one of the stories goes:

"WT anti-grappling won't work against guys who train with division 1 all-american wrestlers and GJJ black belts, so we should probably start learning this stuff if we want to negate it in a fight"

not an exact quote, but a rough translation of the words and actions. Our schools cross train like that. we pick up on these weaknesses in each other's arts. etc


----------



## bcbernam777

Shogun said:


> Yeah, there is. one of the stories goes:
> 
> "WT anti-grappling won't work against guys who train with division 1 all-american wrestlers and GJJ black belts, so we should probably start learning this stuff if we want to negate it in a fight"
> 
> not an exact quote, but a rough translation of the words and actions. Our schools cross train like that. we pick up on these weaknesses in each other's arts. etc



Then there are the other stories of where WC fighters kicked the **** out of Grapplers, but of course (according to the majority on any forum) they are moot because they are personal accounts. I have taken on a grappler (BJJ) who came of second best. Listen shogun why dont you stay in your MMA world, because obviously its unbeatable, there is no need to mix with such poor plebians who obviously pale beneath your mighty art.


----------



## Shogun

> Then there are the other stories of where WC fighters kicked the **** out of Grapplers, but of course (according to the majority on any forum) they are moot because they are personal accounts. I have taken on a grappler (BJJ) who came of second best. Listen shogun why dont you stay in your MMA world, because obviously its unbeatable, there is no need to mix with such poor plebians who obviously pale beneath your mighty art.


well then you didn't understand my point. I don't discredit WT. we teach out of a WT school, and I beleive it has a lot to offer. I also train traditional Jujutsu systems btw. I just find it offensive and downright disrespectful (not to mention careless) for a teacher to claim anti-grappling will work against a seasoned grappler. it won't. plain and simple. The only way to get better at grappling and anti grappling....is to grapple. .....You don't learn sailing to learn how to swim just because sailing has a little water involved.....I am not a MMA nuthugger, I just find it laughable when teachers tell their students "yeah, when a wrestler shoots in like this..." and they show how a wrestler WOULDn't shoot in...ya know what I mean. they are gonna get their students hurt. if they want to show how to do this stuff, I reccomend two things:

1. learn a grappling system, or at least the first basics..
2. Don't make claims what they are doing is going to work agianst someone who only does lots and lots of grappling. 

regards,
Kyle


----------



## bcbernam777

I always thought the best anti-grappling was to punch them in the nose


----------



## Shogun

> I always thought the best anti-grappling was to punch them in the nose


sounds liek a good option, but I am refering to WT instrcutors saying "a wrestler will shoot like this.." and they lean in like they are trying to tickle them or something. now these students have it in their muscle memory and have no knowledge of how a wrestler will actually shoot, plus, on the chance they get into it with a wrestler, instead of playing it safe they may have a false confidence because they have ......you know, basically what I am saying is don't train to defend against stuff that you haven't trained. chances are its wrong.


----------



## bcbernam777

Shogun said:


> sounds liek a good option, but I am refering to WT instrcutors saying "a wrestler will shoot like this.." and they lean in like they are trying to tickle them or something. now these students have it in their muscle memory and have no knowledge of how a wrestler will actually shoot, plus, on the chance they get into it with a wrestler, instead of playing it safe they may have a false confidence because they have ......you know, basically what I am saying is don't train to defend against stuff that you haven't trained. chances are its wrong.



Then I would suggest WT (and I assume you are talking about Leung Tings crew) but any Wing Chunner needs to step outside their comfort zone and train against wrestlers, but I made my comment not to be a smart **** but with good reason. We try to make MA so bloody complicated that we loose the sense of who we are in the midst of real live combat. The reality is the shortest distance between two points is from A to B, the most simple and direct answer at the time is often the most approprate. I mean Bruce was right when he talked about the fancy mess. Please dont think that Wing Chun holds no answers against grapplers, because it does, even at an elementary level with Sifu he forged our understanding of the different energies at play and how to utilise them so as to retain our centre of gravity, now this has not failed me yet, but let me tell you if someone comes for the shoot, then I will shoot of the other direction, or I will apply principals bothe from Chum Kui and Bui Gee to overcome my oponants energy, will that work every time? I have no Idea, I know however that the principal is sound, the logic is structurally intact, and I have utilised these principals a number of times against grapplers. Now they may not have been the gracies, but lets be honest the majority of us are not going to have to face someone with the calibre of the Gracies, and let me say now I think the Gracies are awesone fighters, they are, there is no doubting it, but I have studie3 enough arts and been alive enough to know this one thing, an art is only as invincible as its practicioner allows it to be, we are all learning and developing in our chosen art. But to say that grappling has it on Wing Chun, sorry, your wrong, just as much as Wing Chun does not own grapplers. If any man, woman or child thinks that their art will save them, they are a fool, it is the man that saves himself, not the art.


----------



## Shogun

ok. thanks for clarifying your thoughts. And no. I wouldn't ever believe that training a certain discipline is superior. I just wanted to express how foolish it is to train against something you've never trained yourself. when teaching GJJ, I would NEVER say, "a Wing chun guy is just gonna run in throwing punches at your face" or anything like that because its not necessarily true, and I don't know the mechanics. I'm not refering to tyypical people. I am talking about the contless times I have heard in videos and in person WC and WT teachers telling their students to fight "like this" against Muay Thai, aikido, BJJ, and wrestling. it arrogance in my opinion


----------



## bcbernam777

Shogun said:


> ok. thanks for clarifying your thoughts. And no. I wouldn't ever believe that training a certain discipline is superior. I just wanted to express how foolish it is to train against something you've never trained yourself. when teaching GJJ, I would NEVER say, "a Wing chun guy is just gonna run in throwing punches at your face" or anything like that because its not necessarily true, and I don't know the mechanics. I'm not refering to tyypical people. I am talking about the contless times I have heard in videos and in person WC and WT teachers telling their students to fight "like this" against Muay Thai, aikido, BJJ, and wrestling. it arrogance in my opinion



and I agree with you Shogun, if a WT guy has never actually tested their art against a grappler then you are right it is arrogant to assume this and that will work, all they have are theories. Diffenrent story if a WT guy has developed his theory from actual real time combat against a grappler.


You know thats what I love about this forum, we can agree to disagree but still find some common ground


----------



## Shogun

true. I respect WT/WC, and seeing as we teach out of a WT school, I get exposure to it. I just don't have the time to train it. but at this seminar, a high level WT instructor was showing "what a Jiu-jitsu guy would do" and it was totally incorrect. made me think.

regards


----------



## Rook

Shogun said:


> true. I respect WT/WC, and seeing as we teach out of a WT school, I get exposure to it. I just don't have the time to train it. but at this seminar, a high level WT instructor was showing "what a Jiu-jitsu guy would do" and it was totally incorrect. made me think.
> 
> regards


 
This stuff is actually quite common.  Arts say that you can train against tactics of another art without really knowing how they work.  We see TMA guys practicing against "karate" with no hip rotation with their punches, against "boxing" with punches I have seen no boxer use and against "grappling" with tackles that no competent grappler utilizes.


----------



## bcbernam777

Whoever it was that had the courage of their convictions to neg rep me should also have the courage to leave their username and explain what I said that is "bs"


----------



## Si-Je

What you have to stop focusing so much on is what the other guy is going to do.  If you stick to your technique and follow WC/WT concepts and principles it won't matter much how your opponent attacks, for you intercept their intention and negate their intended technique before they get to finish their movement.
Thus, it doesn't matter if they kick, punch, shoot in to grapple whatever, you focus on flowing with their force and deflecting it from you using it against them.  Hence, a TKD attacker doesn't finish the kick, a boxer doesn't finish his/her boxing combo, a grappler isn't allowed to complete a take down or a arm bar.  Because you have already executed WC technique to counter their attack from the moment they move.
If your constantly worried about what the other guy is going to do to you you give them the chance to do it by anticipating the outcome, and if you don't stay open minded ready to adapt you play their game and lose.
I've sparred TKD, MMA, and BJJ trained martial artists, and the trick is to stay true to what you train everyday and what you know, have confidence in it whatever art you study, and have faith in your ability to execute otherwise you will lose.  
WC's biggest advantage is "getting there first", the quickest way between two points, thus hit them first and follow up quickly and confidently.  No time to worry about what the opponent wants to do to you.  Only enough time to react.  
I've stopped fast and skilled kickers before they can stretch their leg out enough to kick me with WC, I've stopped boxers by intercepting their first jab and crowding their space so they can't follow up with a flurry of combo punching, I've initaiated attack against those that only faint a strike trying to find a "hole" in my guard, and I've stopped grapplers and BJJ/MMA fighters from finishing a takedown simply by strictly following WC concept and reaction.

Plus, if you intend to grapple a striker and they are not allowed to strike you with full force that negates their technique.  As you said before that you got the striker in a choke even though he hit you.  That's the equivilant of me saying to a grappler, "okay, you can grapple me, just don't take me to the ground."  That puts me as a striker at the advantage.  And the grappler at a disadvantage.

We train with full gear so we can strike much closer to full force, so a grappler is unbalanced by the forward force of WC, their body and head is turned thus their takedown doesn't work, it keeps them off balance.  Just like in a actual fight, just without the pain.  But, it gets the point across.

So, in not so short, (lol!) it doesn't matter so much if you don't attack eachother EXACTLY the way another style attacks in class.  This won't prepare you that much more for an encounter with other styles.  It helps, but again, you focus too much on learning another styles attacks and are not focusing enough on what you need to be doing in the conflict.  Thus many stylists when they come into contact with another fighter whether in tournament or street "mimic" their opponents style sometimes subconsiciously and thus end up fighting in their opponents style and not their own.  If you train a style, fight in that style, otherwise, what's the point of training it?  I don't train WC to learn how to fight like a ju-jitsu stylist.  I train WC to fight with WC concepts.  Your fighting style doesn't change for your attacker.  Whether your TKD, BJJ, WC, ect... You fight the way you train.  Not the way the attacker trains.  

just for example:  I don't care that a Mui Tai stylist can kick trees with his shins, I'm focused on taking his space away so he cannot execute technique.  I may be aware that he could break my leg with those shins, and fight accordingly, but the WC concepts of combat still doesn't change.


----------



## Si-Je

And on the note of anti-grappling partners not coming into attack a WT practicing anti-grappling hard or aggressively enough to satisfy other stylists; this is because they know whats coming.  They want to be able to keep training tomorrow.  The harder and faster they come into an anti-grappling WT trained person the harder and faster they will get hit.
Pain is a good reason for pause. lol!
I trained Japanese Ju-jitsu, and the more stiff and strong your opponent is, the more force they try to resist you, the easier it is to get them in an armbar.  Very similar with WT/WC, the harder, faster, and more forceful you come into them the more you will be hurt.  I mean, it seems that so many people complain that WT or other schools don't train realistic enough in class, it makes me wonder how realistic do they REALLY want their classes to be?  Do we really want to lose teeth, break bones and give eachother concussions while training?  You have to keep things in perspective.  Your training to learn not to get beat up.  That's why these guys are not coming in so agressively, because they know better.  Guiterrez hits hard!  And hits you many many times!

More WT schools should put on full gear, is what I think, to get that quality of training to get used to more forceful attack.  

Guiterrez and Emin still train their people without gear, and they get hit very forcefully alot.  My instructor/husband trained with Emin and was smacked around all the time.  Not everyone wants to train that hard core (myself included! lol!)  MMA trains with full gear and the students are able to go all out, and gain much valuable experience and confidence in their ability to execute technique.  Which IS very valuable training.  That's why we train with the gear in free sparring, and while practicing basic WC drills like chi sau, lat sau etc..  Our students have a saying, "no fear with the head gear!"  when they are acting as the attacker towards a fellow student or the cheif instructor.  So everyone gets more practical training.  The student can experience a full boar attack and learn to respond accordingly, and the one attacking is still conscious and able to have fun and learn too.  But even then, the harder you attack the harder your neck snapps back!


----------



## monji112000

> " WC's biggest advantage is "getting there first", the quickest way between two points"


At my end of the Lineage we call this Jamming. You can jam many ways.. Pak , qwan , qwan/bong gerk ect.. 
In my experience jamming isn't the best approach (for me) all the time. You have to be on point with your reactions (something I am not), your speed needs to be faster than him or you need to be closer to him. You have to cover quickly after you jam.
I don't fight people that are slower than me mostly and I often find that getting away seems more natural for me. 


> "As you said before that you got the striker in a choke even though he hit you. That's the equivalent of me saying to a grappler, "okay, you can grapple me, just don't take me to the ground.""


well I don't think that is a realistic comparison. How well someone can take a hit, and how well you can give a punch are relative. Allot of these punches I see people jamming in with in the Leung tin and Emin schools /clips.. I could take a few pretty well, because I have. I believe that these punches arn't very effective. So if you can take the punch with ease then you can grapple and choke someone without much effort.


> "just for example: I don't care that a Mui Tai stylist can kick trees with his shins, I'm focused on taking his space away so he cannot execute technique. I may be aware that he could break my leg with those shins, and fight accordingly, but the WC concepts of combat still doesn't change."


I realize that this is your main tactic.. thats fine because you train it so much so it may work well for you. But, this isn't the normal case. Trying to intercept a good boxer isn't a "smart" tactic. Boxers pride themselves on bobing, weaving, sucking you in, evading , quick jams ect.. 
A decent boxer is not as easy to jam. Joe Smo that I may meet on the street may not be a "decent" boxer.. but I believe in training against styles. I believe in trying to apply your "style" against many other style is the best way to gain experience and to truly "know" your style.
JMO


> "I mean, it seems that so many people complain that WT or other schools don't train realistic enough in class, it makes me wonder how realistic do they REALLY want their classes to be?"


As much as possible To some degree if you are going to train for a fight, you need to replicate to some degree the fight. I am not saying I am always healthy enough to train that way every day.. but in a general path thats my destination. This is why people were trained in "gung lik" and how to apply WC.( I don't know the translation.) Its like saying you don't want to get wet when you go swiming.


----------



## Si-Je

monji112000 said:


> At my end of the Lineage we call this Jamming. You can jam many ways.. Pak , qwan , qwan/bong gerk ect..
> In my experience jamming isn't the best approach (for me) all the time. You have to be on point with your reactions (something I am not), your speed needs to be faster than him or you need to be closer to him. You have to cover quickly after you jam.


 
No, I'm not talking about trapping hands or "jamming".  I'm simply talking about hitting them before they hit you.  I've canceled out other stylists punching technique both boxing and TKD by simply chain punching.  This can be used as a deflection and simoltaneous attack.  People get hung up on trying to trap an opponents hands.  This is not something that you "try for" it is something that "happens" when you use sensitivity and flow with the opponents force.



monji112000 said:


> How well someone can take a hit, and how well you can give a punch are relative. Allot of these punches I see people jamming in with in the Leung tin and Emin schools /clips.. I could take a few pretty well, because I have. I believe that these punches arn't very effective. So if you can take the punch with ease then you can grapple and choke someone without much effort..


 
This is a common misconception for grapplers.  It's like they train to take a punch and think it's okay to get hit a couple of times.  (great mentality if your a man and strong)  This depends on the practicioner.  When I've drilled chain punching I've moved the 240 lb. man holding the kicking pad back so I KNOW someone will not just be "taking" several of those punches.  Your gonna feel it and it's going to unbalance an opponent if not just outright hurt.  Plus, depends on where you strike.  Will I punch a large man in the jaw or skull?  No, the nose, temple, throat, and base of the neck from behind are great options.  Thus, your assumption that you can "take" as many punches needed to get your choke, i find to be a very dangerous one.



monji112000 said:


> Trying to intercept a good boxer isn't a "smart" tactic. Boxers pride themselves on bobing, weaving, sucking you in, evading , quick jams ect..
> A decent boxer is not as easy to jam. Joe Smo that I may meet on the street may not be a "decent" boxer.. ..


 
Again, we don't "try" to jam up a boxer or any other opponent.  This would negate flow, and make our movements coreographed and premeditated.  And contrary to WC concepts.
here is where chi sau starts, when you make that inital arm contact by deflecting the first punch from your opponent.  You step forward with forward force into the attacker as they are punching at you with tan sau, pac sau, etc... and keep arm contact so you can follow the opponents movements.  This is intercepting fist.  I'm not trying to catch your fist or arm like in some movie, I just stay close to it, keep contact with the arm/elbow and crowd the opponents space with steppng and stance, while kicking out a knee all simoltaneously, so that they cannot regroup and follow up with more attacks.  This WILL negate a boxers ability to bob and weave so much becuase you are actually breathing their air.  You now stand where they were standing when they threw the first punch and have kicked the knee out as you stepped in their fighting stance while deflecting whether with tan sau or pac, and punching rapidly at the same time.  THIS IS THE BASIC PRINCIPLES TAUGHT IN WING CHUN.  Simoltaneous attack and defense.  A boxer does not know how to attack and defend at the same time, thus, their tactic is slower.



monji112000 said:


> As much as possible To some degree if you are going to train for a fight, you need to replicate to some degree the fight. I am not saying I am always healthy enough to train that way every day.. but in a general path thats my destination. This is why people were trained in "gung lik" and how to apply WC.( I don't know the translation.) Its like saying you don't want to get wet when you go swiming.


 
Yes, I agree.  That's why we train with full gear so we can simulate spontaneous sparring with the students and so they can learn to follow through with technique and get used to more agressive attacking in class.  I've stated this often, somehow it get missed or deemed unimportant.


----------



## Si-Je

Wing Chun no no #1
when a "boxer" jabs you imediately try to latch the punching arm and pull opponent too you or try to pac and trap the arm to their body.  POW! you get hit with the other hand.  You fall into their trap, their game.

Wing Chun do #1
said "boxer" jabs and immediately follows up with other hand.  You tan or pac jabbing punch arm, step into the side of the initial attacking jab placing yourself away from the follow up punch.  (stepping to the side of their body outside of their centerline.  While keeping them in frount of YOUR centerline). Using your stance to crowd the legs allowing you to use leg sensitivity and arm sensitivity on the first punch to keep track of opponents movements and strike the side of the head or spade hand the kidneys, while kicking the nearest leg.  All in one flowing movement.

Wing Chun no no #2
Trying to force a trap situation on any style of opponent whether a grappler or striker.  This causes you to fail to flow with the opportunities given you by the attackers actions, thus you cannot adapt to the situation.

This is only the very basic concepts of Wing Chun.


----------



## MMAman

Si-Je said:


> Wing Chun no no #1
> when a "boxer" jabs you imediately try to latch the punching arm and pull opponent too you or try to pac and trap the arm to their body. POW! you get hit with the other hand. You fall into their trap, their game.
> 
> Wing Chun do #1
> said "boxer" jabs and immediately follows up with other hand. You tan or pac jabbing punch arm, step into the side of the initial attacking jab placing yourself away from the follow up punch. (stepping to the side of their body outside of their centerline. While keeping them in frount of YOUR centerline). Using your stance to crowd the legs allowing you to use leg sensitivity and arm sensitivity on the first punch to keep track of opponents movements and strike the side of the head or spade hand the kidneys, while kicking the nearest leg. All in one flowing movement.
> 
> Wing Chun no no #2
> Trying to force a trap situation on any style of opponent whether a grappler or striker. This causes you to fail to flow with the opportunities given you by the attackers actions, thus you cannot adapt to the situation.
> 
> This is only the very basic concepts of Wing Chun.


 
Now this is nonsence. Cross-training is far better than any TMA style. if you Wing Chun guys just admire Bruce Lee, read his books about being free from style and take what is useful.

Check this link:
http://cyclonewingchun.wblite.co.uk/News/Wing-Chun-Articles.mspx

This link is from a Wing chun trainer who knew how stuff like anti-grappling cannot work and are just theories, and he trained in real grappling like BJJ and catch wrestling. "CROSS TRAINING".


----------



## Jade Tigress

*Mod Note

Attention All Users

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Pamela Piszczek 
MT Sr. Moderator*


----------



## Si-Je

Que paso?
My last post had nothing to do with Bruce Lee, dear.
I was just clarifying WC theory and application.  I've studied WC for the past three years, and I haven't found anything to "strip" away yet.
As for cross-training, this is something I find to be largely irrevelant to becoming a well trained fighter.
I've studied other arts for years, and now only use Wing Chun.  That's all that's needed, all the rest I learned from other arts was what I "stripped" away from my fighting style.
But, each to their own.


----------



## bcbernam777

MMAman said:


> Now this is nonsence. Cross-training is far better than any TMA style.


 
How so? I have cross trained and the only thing it led to was nueral confusion.



MMAman said:


> if you Wing Chun guys just admire Bruce Lee, read his books about being free from style and take what is useful.


 
Funny that Bruce Lee stated just weeks before his death that he wanted to further study Wing Chun (he had not completed the system you see, so he only had a partial picture of Wing Chun)



MMAman said:


> Check this link:
> http://cyclonewingchun.wblite.co.uk/News/Wing-Chun-Articles.mspx
> 
> This link is from a Wing chun trainer who knew how stuff like anti-grappling cannot work and are just theories, and he trained in real grappling like BJJ and catch wrestling. "CROSS TRAINING".


 
mmmmm one trainer, it couldnt be that they are pushing BJJ mixed with WC as a marketing tool (no of course they wouldn't do that). One trainer who says it cant and plenty of others who say it can? Quoting one trainer who has already started from a position of cross training therefore has a barrow to push proves nothing.

This rubbish argument go's on and on with no resolution and there wont be, I have done many arts, some grappling, some kicking, some striking, there is no other art that I have personally found that is smarter or more efficient than Wing Chun, that is my personal view borne from experiance, I have tasted the other arts, however people like you mmaman, seem content in pulling an art apart that you have no real experiance in, and then you bring Bruce into it, for an extra side serve of sarcasm, I truely doubt you even understand the "Tao of Jeet Kune Do", if you did you will find one of the causes of a lack of speed listed in the book is "no trained in a system".

B4ruce was not declaring that their is no need for a system, he was warning martial artists to transcend the system and become free thinkers not pile one system upon another, when you cross train that is all you are doing, cramming one system upon another system, so that neurologically you dont have the same reaction timing as another who has singulary trained in a system.

As for grappling and anti grappling, there is more than one way to skin a cat, remember a fight does not happen until molacule jtouches molacule, and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, yet in the martial art, there are many variables as to what that reaction will be, there are many weapons that can be used against a grappler, and many ways of strategy that can overcome a grappler, anti grappling is simply the most obvious way, it is however not the only way.


----------



## MJS

Speaking as someone who really knows nothing about WC, but does cross train, I'd like to comment on that aspect. I've had this discussion (crosstraining) with a number of Kenpoists. For myself, I crosstrain in the arts I do, because I like what they have to offer, and I'd like to further my understanding in certain areas. I don't feel that someone should have to leave their base art and jump into something else, but at the least, I personally see nothing wrong with cross referencing other arts. We have a number of defenses against takedowns in Kenpo. But, the way I'm 'attacked' in training, may not be the way someone trained in BJJ would attack. That being said, by working with someone who does BJJ, it helps me to make my defense better. 

The same can be said with weapon defense. Again, we have a number of club and knife disarms, but I take my knowledge of Arnis, and apply it to my Kenpo techs. What better way for me, to improve on weapon defense, than to train in an art in which weapons are a major part of it.

Anyway, this is simply my .02.


----------



## profesormental

Greetings.

As long as no agreed upon standards are set by parties in discussion, no agreement will ever be reached, since each method or system is evaluated by it's own standards, principles, concepts and guidelines.

So I won't enter into that discussion.

I will say the following.

Many instructors using many systems, traditional and not, have produced exellent fighters that do what they do proficiently as needed. each fighter is happy with what they do. And that is quite ok!

On cross training.

If it is not done properly, it will only confuse. Many times it cancels one for another. This means that there is no real integration and tends to waste valuable training time.

How so?

Because you may train to achieve a skill that you already have, except that you gained it from another method!

As for Wing Chun, it's structure and approach is profound, yet simplistic. This makes it very elegant to many practitioners.

The thing is not to make it a bigger system.

The aim is to strip away until you have to train less stuff... so you can maximize on training those things which yield most results.

Or not.

I just enjoy the structure I get and the ability to be not manipulated.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado


----------



## MMAman

Si-Je said:


> Que paso?
> My last post had nothing to do with Bruce Lee, dear.
> I was just clarifying WC theory and application. I've studied WC for the past three years, and I haven't found anything to "strip" away yet.
> As for cross-training, this is something I find to be largely irrevelant to becoming a well trained fighter.
> I've studied other arts for years, and now only use Wing Chun. That's all that's needed, all the rest I learned from other arts was what I "stripped" away from my fighting style.
> But, each to their own.


 
Still you speak from a theoritical aspect. MMA tends to prove it's stuff by producing fighters who proved their stuff by fighting. I still remember how Wing Chun fighters couldn't do anything in the early UFC's. they even didn't move!. This stuff normally happens when people train but not try their stuff.

Anti-grappling demonstrated in WT is something that even a basic BJJ trainers could know how to deal with.

As for Emin vs the Gracies. Royce wanted him to fight in the UFC because there were no rules. I don't know why?, most styles took the fact of the grappling domination and incorporated it in their styles after watching BJJ in the ring, except Wing chun!. I don't know why?. 

Unless Wing Chunners don't realize about grappling and stay on this Anti stuff. I dont think they would know how real fights end?. 

The guy provided the link knew this fact and he said it. 

Sorry if I offended anyone, but facts are clear as I guess.


----------



## bcbernam777

MMAman said:


> Still you speak from a theoritical aspect. MMA tends to prove it's stuff by producing fighters who proved their stuff by fighting.


 
Ah so no Wing Chun fighter in the world has ever had a fight?





MMAman said:


> I still remember how Wing Chun fighters couldn't do anything in the early UFC's. they even didn't move!. This stuff normally happens when people train but not try their stuff.


 
Agreed, but to blame the art is ridculous, i know plenty of Wing Chun fighters who move like the wind, they observe good principles such as bridging, timing, etc. This only gets back to the original quote you brought up about Bruce, those who dont move are trapped within their own learned helplessness, martial robots, they obviously had no life in their art, I know when training my Sifu constantly challenges us to think, not just blindly do. Theory + Real World Practice + Lateral Thinking is a good combination *in any art*, these people obvislyy had the first but not the other 2 elements.



MMAman said:


> Anti-grappling demonstrated in WT is something that even a basic BJJ trainers could know how to deal with..


 
Which goes back to a point I made on another thread, why try to fight someone on their terms, there is more than one way to control heaven and earth (please refer to Sun Tzu)



MMAman said:


> fight in the UFC because there were _*no rules*_.


 

I am sorry I must be watching a different UFC



MMAman said:


> I don't know why?, most styles took the fact of the grappling domination and incorporated it in their styles after watching BJJ in the ring, except Wing chun!. I don't know why?.


 
Probably because Wing Chun has its own awnsers to this conudrum



MMAman said:


> Unless Wing Chunners don't realize about grappling and stay on this Anti stuff. I dont think they would know how *real fights end?.*


 
Oh thats right, no one ever got into a real fight until MMA came along, you serve a strong case for a real fact that MMA practicioners have been hit entirely too many times in the head and live in punch drunk land.



MMAman said:


> The guy provided the link knew this fact and he said it.


 
Correction he knew a experential fact that was real for him in his training, I know of other people who know other facts, infact I know of people who have left the wonderful world of MMA and have gone into TMA's because of its own series of shortcomings and inconsistancies, do I then go on to publish the fact that MMA is useless because of their own experiance, no to do that borders on idiocy. For a start you dont know this persons level of training in Wing Chun, you dont know what teacher he was under, you dont know any of these things. 

You are simply using a statement from one Wing Chun proponant to support your argumant and trounce it of as being the "golden fact". 

Now I am not saying that their are not other Wing Chunners incroporating BJJ into their teaching, but I know of kempo teachers who are incorporating BJJ as well, does it mean that they have seen the light? Well I asked one who is a friend, who stated to me quite clearly, that the only reason they are offering BJJ Classes mixed with their own martial art is because it makes more economic sense, as offering both bjj and MT broadens his client base by being all things to all people.

Many of us in our local WC circles know for a fact that the whole reason many WC teachers incorporate BJJ into their curriculum was because it was a business decision, to broaden their own Student base. Its all about money thats it.



MMAman said:


> Sorry if I offended anyone, but facts are clear as I guess.


 
I think the word your looking for is fact, not facts, facts indicate that there was more than one.


----------



## jas825_231

MMAman said:


> Still you speak from a theoritical aspect. MMA tends to prove it's stuff by producing fighters who proved their stuff by fighting. I still remember how Wing Chun fighters couldn't do anything in the early UFC's. they even didn't move!. This stuff normally happens when people train but not try their stuff.
> 
> Anti-grappling demonstrated in WT is something that even a basic BJJ trainers could know how to deal with.
> 
> As for Emin vs the Gracies. Royce wanted him to fight in the UFC because there were no rules. I don't know why?, most styles took the fact of the grappling domination and incorporated it in their styles after watching BJJ in the ring, except Wing chun!. I don't know why?.
> 
> Unless Wing Chunners don't realize about grappling and stay on this Anti stuff. I dont think they would know how real fights end?.
> 
> The guy provided the link knew this fact and he said it.
> 
> Sorry if I offended anyone, but facts are clear as I guess.



Well for the early fights in UFC the people who represented WC looked like beginners at best who clearly had NO fighting experience. If I remember right, there was one 'WC' guy who lifted his leg and cowered back in fear when his opponent came at him. He looked scared to be in the ring, and with seemingly no fighting experience and most likely a beginner in WC. That person is pretty ignorant to get in there and fight. But i also think it's ignorant of you to judge WC off of those one or two people. I have a friend who does boxing and bjj, but can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. I don't say MMA is bad because of that.

As far as the anti-grappling thing. It does work. It just has to be practiced with some one who knows how to grapple, so you can get down the timing, strength, leverage, etc. Not someone who thinks they know how to grapple. I've fended off plenty of wrestlers with some anti grappling techniques, granted not anyone in bjj.


----------



## MMAman

jas825_231 said:


> Well for the early fights in UFC the people who represented WC looked like beginners at best who clearly had NO fighting experience. If I remember right, there was one 'WC' guy who lifted his leg and cowered back in fear when his opponent came at him. He looked scared to be in the ring, and with seemingly no fighting experience and most likely a beginner in WC. That person is pretty ignorant to get in there and fight. But i also think it's ignorant of you to judge WC off of those one or two people. I have a friend who does boxing and bjj, but can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. I don't say MMA is bad because of that.
> 
> As far as the anti-grappling thing. It does work. It just has to be practiced with some one who knows how to grapple, so you can get down the timing, strength, leverage, etc. Not someone who thinks they know how to grapple. I've fended off plenty of wrestlers with some anti grappling techniques, granted not anyone in bjj.


 
so you used your anti-grappling stuff against grapplers. OK tell you what. I want you to try something. Go to any college wrestling team and try your stuff?. Those college Wrestlers are not that experienced, but be sure that they can give a real hard time. Fighters in the UFC are much more faster in grappling you and taking you down and submitting you.

I want you to try this experiment, and then tell us the outcome,

Thank you.


----------



## jas825_231

MMAman said:


> so you used your anti-grappling stuff against grapplers. OK tell you what. I want you to try something. Go to any college wrestling team and try your stuff?. Those college Wrestlers are not that experienced, but be sure that they can give a real hard time. Fighters in the UFC are much more faster in grappling you and taking you down and submitting you.
> 
> I want you to try this experiment, and then tell us the outcome,
> 
> Thank you.



Lol, tough guy... I'm not going to go 'challenge' the wrestlers at my school. That's pretty childish... I'm not one to start pointless fights. Oh let's say I did fight a college wrestler, and by some miracle i win.... I'm sure that wouldn't be enough for you anyway. 

Also, why are you comparing what I said to the UFC. I'm really glad you told me that pro mma fighters will be better than amateurs; I surely would have never known that if it weren't for your wisdom. 

But hey if I ever have defend myself against a college wrestler I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## MMAman

jas825_231 said:


> Lol, tough guy... I'm not going to go 'challenge' the wrestlers at my school. That's pretty childish... I'm not one to start pointless fights. Oh let's say I did fight a college wrestler, and by some miracle i win.... I'm sure that wouldn't be enough for you anyway.
> 
> Also, why are you comparing what I said to the UFC. I'm really glad you told me that pro mma fighters will be better than amateurs; I surely would have never known that if it weren't for your wisdom.
> 
> But hey if I ever have defend myself against a college wrestler I'll let you know how it goes.


 
I am comparing it becuase some Wing chun trainers said that Anti-grappling will work against what those pro UFC fighters. Royce Gracie himself said this in an interview.

*The Highs and Lows of Winning, by Royce Gracie* 

The Ultimate Fighting Championship has given me a great platform for 
demonstrating what my family has believed in for over 65 years: That 
the techniques of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu(R) prepare the best fighters in the 
world. Winning at the UFC has made what we do very popular, and the 
results are that I am getting a lot of attention, and our Academy is 
growing like crazy. The publicity surrounding the UFC is very 
controversial, and I receive many requests from the media for 
interviews. I like to fight and I like the rewards, both emotional 
and financial. 

The only down side to being The Ultimate Fighting Champion is the 
clowns I must deal with who claim to challenge me or the Gracie 
Family, and who hide behind the publicity stunt of a challenge with no 
intention of meeting me in the octagon. They use the tactics of a 
challenge in an attempt to discredit the integrity of my victories, 
and support their weak claims of fighting superiority. They then have 
the audacity to explain why they do not want or need to fight in the 
UFC. 

I heard that there were over 400 applications for UFC IV, and many 
fighters make no bones about who they are after - me! We also receive 
many direct requests at the Academy from fighters who want to 
challenge me, and who feel they deserve special treatment over all of 
the other fighters in the UFC, because they are who they think they 
are. The final insult comes when we bend over backwards to 
accommodate a challenger, who then badgers us with excuses and the 
fight never happens. 

The most recent example is Emin Boztepe. First came his challenge, 
then he told everyone why he does not need to fight in the UFC, 
finally all the reasons why a scheduled fight outside the UFC will 
never take place. All the while boasting of his alleged fighting 
superiority. 

In Boztepe's original challenge letter he made two requests. First, 
that he fight only a Gracie. Second, that the winner takes all the 
money (Boztepe said he would donate his to charity). Boztepe was 
offered a special fight with me in UFC V by Art Davie. With this 
offer all the conditions of Boztepe's challenge were met, but Boztepe 
then said that he would not compete at the UFC. My brother Rorion, 
then went to the effort of setting up a special match at a neutral 
location, the Police Academy in Los Angeles. Boztepe then said the 
fight was illegal in California, and he would not compete at the 
Police Academy because my brother is a "member" and therefore it is 
not neutral ground. For the record, the Police Academy is not a 
health club and does not have "members". Rorion sits on a civilian 
panel that assists the Police Academy with its self defense training. 
So does Benny Urquidez and Gene LeBell, whose honor Boztepe is 
supposedly defending. Just in case this new excuse is not enough, 
Boztepe has his lawyer send a list of guarantees that must be met 
before the fight is scheduled. Boztepe then suggested an alternative 
location, and when my brother requested the same guarantees as 
requested by Boztepe's lawyers, they accused me of not wanting to 
fight. 

I sometimes feel like the lion tamer at a circus dealing with real 
lions who have the courage to step into the octagon. I regard 
individuals like Boztepe as the clowns who entertain the audience 
between performances. Boztepe has an open invitation, and a 
guaranteed place at any UFC, yet he cannot bring himself to enter. 
He requests a private match, then assigns his lawyer the task of 
making sure it never happens. 

I can only conclude that Boztepe was never serious about fighting a 
Gracie in the first place. 

This latest example of a publicity stunt by Boztepe is the final 
reason why we will no longer take challenges outside the UFC. I 
respect the fighters who have the courage to step into the octagon. 
The reason the Ultimate Fighting Championship was developed was to 
eliminate legal impediments to staging a real life no-holds-barred 
fight. Anyone who wants to fight only the Gracies, please respect 
the other fighters who have the guts to compete in the UFC. This 
is how to get to Royce Gracie. 

Now. If what anti-grappling stuff work. I guess we would saw it on the ring in the early days. If UFC rules are not good like people says, go to PRIDE. I think the rules are ok by all fighters, except for the deadly wing Chun system that cannot be used due to its fast finishing techniques!.


----------



## jas825_231

I've heard both sides of the Boztepe vs Gracie thing. All I have to say to that is both should've stepped up and fought. I'm not going to take sides on that because, well i don't really care. It would've been a good fight though.

Now I think if some one with real fighting expierience that came out of WC that completed the system, could do just fine in ufc. But I doubt we'll ever see that since almost all wing chun practioners aren't trying to get into pro fighting. That's why we didn't see it then and we don't see it now. We have other goals then people who train in MMA.


----------



## tellner

The problem is that the [W,V]ing [Ch,Ts]un camp has a long tradition of saying that it's unbeatable, the best, the most efficient and that nothing can beat its gates, center line theory, chain punching or choose your favorite. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Boztepe has been one of the worst. Honestly, if the big dysfunctional family had spent a little less time fighting itself it could have ruled the martial arts world starting in the 70s when the Bruce Lee craze was at its height. But they didn't, couldn't or wouldn't.

Then along came the Gracies who reminded everyone that there were wrestlers in the world, not just boxers. We knew that sooner or later people would figure out how to deal with the Gracies' system. Nothing is unbeatable. Heck, so did the Gracies. To their credit the Gracie family hasn't tried to make excuses. "Tonight he was the better fighter" and all the rest.


----------



## MMAman

tellner said:


> The problem is that the [W,V]ing [Ch,Ts]un camp has a long tradition of saying that it's unbeatable, the best, the most efficient and that nothing can beat its gates, center line theory, chain punching or choose your favorite. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Boztepe has been one of the worst. Honestly, if the big dysfunctional family had spent a little less time fighting itself it could have ruled the martial arts world starting in the 70s when the Bruce Lee craze was at its height. But they didn't, couldn't or wouldn't.
> 
> Then along came the Gracies who reminded everyone that there were wrestlers in the world, not just boxers. We knew that sooner or later people would figure out how to deal with the Gracies' system. Nothing is unbeatable. Heck, so did the Gracies. To their credit the Gracie family hasn't tried to make excuses. "Tonight he was the better fighter" and all the rest.


 
Finally. Someone who said it right "Excuses". Thank You


----------



## bcbernam777

tellner said:


> The problem is that the [W,V]ing [Ch,Ts]un camp has a long tradition of saying that it's unbeatable, the best, the most efficient and that nothing can beat its gates, center line theory, chain punching or choose your favorite. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Boztepe has been one of the worst. Honestly, if the big dysfunctional family had spent a little less time fighting itself it could have ruled the martial arts world starting in the 70s when the Bruce Lee craze was at its height. But they didn't, couldn't or wouldn't.
> 
> Then along came the Gracies who reminded everyone that there were wrestlers in the world, not just boxers. We knew that sooner or later people would figure out how to deal with the Gracies' system. Nothing is unbeatable. Heck, so did the Gracies. To their credit the Gracie family hasn't tried to make excuses. "Tonight he was the better fighter" and all the rest.


 
Can you show us some sources that say it is unbeatable?

If you talk to any half decent WC exponant, being unbeatable is far from the truth, infact that is the same with any system, it all comes down to the fighter, his teaching and his training, if you where to ask me Wing Chun is, as i believe it to be the most effecient form of fighting there is, that is my personal opinion, i have yet to find an MA that is as effecient, but when you start talking about unbeatable, that is up to the man, not the system.

Also you will find that any half decent WC exponant will not make excuses, hey I lost, but what they will do is go back to the drawing board, look at what went wrong, and then train for that particular situation, technique, whatever


----------



## bcbernam777

MMAman said:


> Finally. Someone who said it right "Excuses". Thank You


 
I have heard Excuses from both sides of the fence........................


............... mmmmmmmmmmm do i smell a troll


----------



## SilatFan

jas825_231 said:


> I've heard both sides of the Boztepe vs Gracie thing. All I have to say to that is both should've stepped up and fought. I'm not going to take sides on that because, well i don't really care. It would've been a good fight though.
> 
> Now I think if some one with real fighting expierience that came out of WC that completed the system, could do just fine in ufc. But I doubt we'll ever see that since almost all wing chun practioners aren't trying to get into pro fighting. That's why we didn't see it then and we don't see it now. We have other goals then people who train in MMA.


 

It makes me laugh to read you say Royce should have stepped up.  The guy has faught men with who had some excellent credentials. A guy who had blackbelts in 10 different arts, a pro boxer, a sumo wrestler, American and Japanese wrestlers, a judo gold medalist, a pro kickboxer, a savate & kyoko shinkai blackbelt, a shotokan blackbelt a aikido black belt and 5 animal kungfu blacksash, and a kenpo blackbelt plus others (those guys w/ black belts are still highly respected with in their arts today and had reached different degrees of BB at that time).  Names like shamrock, Van Cliffe, Sakuraba, Hughes, Pardoe, severen, hackney, gerald Gordeu, kimo, pat smith, etc, etc...  Plus a lot of this was back when no one had any clue what would happen when you matched up these different arts and fighters.  Who did Emin every fight?  An old Chinese guy?   Yeah Royce needed to step up.  Emin had no desire to fight. He challenged Royce and then wanted special rules.  When they said ok he just found another way to back out.  He also said he chalenged Bas Rutten and rutten was scared.  Rutten went to talk to him face to face and he again backed down again.

I dont pretend like MMA is the best art or that you have to be a fighter to be respected as a person.  But c'mon.  When it suited Emin to fight - like when it was against an old man - then he did.  If it suited him to get free hype by challenging fighters with a big name he did.  But when it came to backing up his words against those competent fighters - He took that invincable art, turned tail and ran.    Who knows maybe old man Helio is old enough for Emin to Jump from behind like he did to W. Cheung?


----------



## Si-Je

Wow, the thread really took off! lol!
As for UFC fighters "testing" their style in the ring, what I see is that everyone in UFC fights the same now.  They all train the same stuff, boxing, BJJ, and kickboxing.  So, how can you say that they are "testing" their fighting style against other styles?  In the early UFC's there were people that competed who trained a style for years, this is not so anymore.  MMA takes a bit from one style and a bit from another, no real mastery of one style.  This in my eyes does NOT make you a mixed martial artist.  My view of a mixed martial artist is someone who's completed training in two or more arts/styles for a full understanding and mastery of one art before learning another.

As for Emin wanting a no rules fight, street style, that would allow him to fully use his techniques while fighting.  UFC has many rules designed to favor grappling.  Grappling in the street is not as effective.  Sure, you can take an opponent down to the ground in the street, but then your dealing with concrete not mats, painful.  Or gravel from your opponents chest falling into your face, broken glass, nails, chairs, tables, parked cars, all kinds of objects in the street or real life that will get in the way.  What about stairs?  Would you grapple someone who attacks you on a stairway?
Wing Chun is designed for realistic street combat, not the octagon, and to compare the techniques to MMA or BJJ is comparing apples and oranges.
In UFC your not allowed to strike the back of the neck, eye gouge, kick to the knee joint, groin, or even to use the neck take downs from Wing Chun, you can't knee the head of the opponent while they're getting up off the ground or kick them as they get up off the ground.  You can't step on their face while their on the ground, etc.  These are all things you would do in a street fight.  To survive.  You wouldn't want to be totally wrapped up in an oppoent on the street while his buddies kick you in the face and head while your on the ground.

As for Emin, he has had many real street fights in his life.  In clubs, on the street, a couple of hundred.  This is a Wing Chunner who HAS tested his style numerous times, and hey, he's still breathing, isn't crippled, and healthy to tell the tales.

We've had students come to our class that wrestled in High School and studied BJJ and MMA.  We've used and taught them the anti-grappling.  I assure you from experience that it works great against these stylists.  Simply because their ultimate goal is to grab us with both their hands and submit.  Very aggressive yes, but we don't grab back, leaving our hands free to strike numerous times within seconds.  For seconds are all you have.  Plus, the legs are pumping and kicking and we use the entire body to corkscrew them off or get out of arm bars and such.  All at the same time, true to WC concept.

I've trained many other arts before WC.  And it's really just the easiest and most effecient way to fight that I have come across.  I'm a small framed woman, and MMA, boxing, mui tai, kickboxing, BJJ and all that just does NOT work for me against larger opponents. PERIOD.  I'm 120lbs. 5'5" and I bruise like a girl! lol!  Every art I've ever taken, I've had to strip away the techniques that just wouldn't work for me in a street fight, that were too risky, and compromised my situation with a larger attacker.  With WC I haven't had to do that.  Not once.  

Sigh, unfortunately what I see, is that American society is impatient and arrogant.  I live here, so I see it.  We live in a happy meal, sitcome, 30 second, t.v. dinner society where people don't want to really devote time and truely train and learn an art. (this is a very general statement, their are a few people who are the exception).  We want to be bad to the bone "fighers" in a very short amount of time.  We're always in such a hurry to get nowhere.  We want "proof" of suedo facts that reinforce and confirm that what we're training is real.  Unfortunately, many of us must get this confirmation from t.v. or outside of ourselves, dojos, or quoons.  This confirmation does not tell us the truth and is completely misleading.

I would never box in a street fight because my hands arent' wrapped and I would therefore break my hands should I make contact.  Boxing is designed for the ring.

I would never use BJJ because concrete is hard and my tail bone, spine, hip, or head isn't.  BJJ is designed for the ring.

I would never use kickboxing in the street because high kicks take time to execute and oil, beer/water on the floor at a club, chairs, tables, a hall or alleyway is confining and would make many techniques impractical.  Plus, when kicking high your on only one leg, I could kick someone in the head as I get tackled by his buddie, or while they swing a two by four in the back of my head.  Kickboxing is designed for the ring. 

We train to fight multiple attackers in class.  It's about changing the way you think.  Your strategy in the street is totally different than in the ring.  With multiple attackers you go for the break, not the submission.  I want to break one's leg with a low heel kick the first time, followed up by chain punching or other technique, spending no more than 6-8 seconds on one person.  I want to keep moving, keep my feet, and get ready for the next attacker.  No time to "submit".  

A rapist would not be beaten my submission.  He would have to be devastated.  Quickly, and without remorse.  If he will take affections from me by force, then he will take more, like my very life.
Same thing with a mugger or street thug trying to prove something.
These people do not deserve "rules of engagement" or submission, or any quarter from me or anyone.  This is what we train to defend against.
We're not training for metals, tropheys, or recognition.  We fight to live, we fight to keep from being maimed, scared, or from just being victimized.
Apples and oranges.
MMA and Wing Chun.

Both me and my husband have grown up in tough neighborhoods, with gangs, thugs, molestors, junkies, pimps, and all kinds of criminal element.  We know what will work and what won't when it counts.  Devastate the opponent quickly before they get to a knife, gun, or other weapon, before they go get help from their buddies.  The street is unforgiving and leaves no room for error, mercy, or hesitation.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*Mod Note

Attention All Users

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.
*
*Brian R. VanCise*
*MartialTalk Moderator
*


----------



## Rook

bcbernam777 said:


> Ah so no Wing Chun fighter in the world has ever had a fight?


 
Perhaps never won a fight against a SKILLED MMAist/grappler. 



> Agreed, but to blame the art is ridculous, i know plenty of Wing Chun fighters who move like the wind, they observe good principles such as bridging, timing, etc.


 
Think about what he just said.  You're still discussing theory not sucessful application.  Where is the application he was talking about?  When you talk about countering a tactic, there should be some instance of the counter actually working on a competent opponent - and in the case of wing chun anti-grappling, there is not.  Find any MMAist or grappler who is ranked in a major organization (UFC, PRIDE, ADCC, etc) or any wrestler with real credentials (try any NCAA division 1 all American or something of that nature) and see how far any of that stuff goes.  The sprawl will stop them, done correctly.  There is no instance in which wing chun anti-grappling has ever stopped them and I think if you are going to tell people it is effective, you should have proof along the lines of 3 Cs:

1.  Consistancy - not one instance but a consistant record
2.  Competency - high quality, high level opponents not some guy from your school who watched the UFC twice last week
3.  Credible evidence - video, court documents, academic journals things like that - not legends and what someone on the internet told you



> This only gets back to the original quote you brought up about Bruce, those who dont move are trapped within their own learned helplessness, martial robots, they obviously had no life in their art, I know when training my Sifu constantly challenges us to think, not just blindly do. Theory + Real World Practice + Lateral Thinking is a good combination *in any art*, these people obvislyy had the first but not the other 2 elements.


 
So find someone who can and send them to fight.  Don't just TELL us that there were deficient fighters but you have better ones - SHOW us.  Send them and lets see how they fare.  



> Which goes back to a point I made on another thread, why try to fight someone on their terms, there is more than one way to control heaven and earth (please refer to Sun Tzu)


 
Your system of "anti-grappling" has not worked.  There are *several* ways to grapple, and I don't believe that anyone on this thread has denigriated the working grappling systems of judo, BJJ, SAMBO, catchwrestling, shootfighting and submission wrestling.  




> I am sorry I must be watching a different UFC


 
Or not paying attention.  



> Probably because Wing Chun has its own awnsers to this conudrum


 
In THEORY.  You still haven't beaten them in practice, which is what is generally required to have it considered an answer.  



> Oh thats right, no one ever got into a real fight until MMA came along, you serve a strong case for a real fact that MMA practicioners have been hit entirely too many times in the head and live in punch drunk land.


 
No one said that.  However, you still have a long way to go to prove rather than assert a great many things. 



> Correction he knew a experential fact that was real for him in his training, I know of other people who know other facts, infact I know of people who have left the wonderful world of MMA and have gone into TMA's because of its own series of shortcomings and inconsistancies, do I then go on to publish the fact that MMA is useless because of their own experiance, no to do that borders on idiocy.


 
Anyone who reached any level of professional MMA?  I have never seen or heard of any ranked professional who has quit to study TMA - however, there are lots of people who tried some lessons and quit.   Perhaps you should look at the credentials in MMA before you conclude that they have the first idea what they are talking about on the level of personal experiance.   



> For a start you dont know this persons level of training in Wing Chun, you dont know what teacher he was under, you dont know any of these things.
> 
> You are simply using a statement from one Wing Chun proponant to support your argumant and trounce it of as being the "golden fact".


 
He's making the point that even people within your own system have seen its shortcomings. 



> Now I am not saying that their are not other Wing Chunners incroporating BJJ into their teaching, but I know of kempo teachers who are incorporating BJJ as well, does it mean that they have seen the light? Well I asked one who is a friend, who stated to me quite clearly, that the only reason they are offering BJJ Classes mixed with their own martial art is because it makes more economic sense, as offering both bjj and MT broadens his client base by being all things to all people.
> 
> Many of us in our local WC circles know for a fact that the whole reason many WC teachers incorporate BJJ into their curriculum was because it was a business decision, to broaden their own Student base. Its all about money thats it.


 
Thats true enough... many TMA schools follow the flavor of the month whatever it may be.  They won't get far in the BJJ comps. if they even go at all.  



> I think the word your looking for is fact, not facts, facts indicate that there was more than one.


 
Where are the fights to support your alternative view?


----------



## Rook

Si-Je said:


> Wow, the thread really took off! lol!
> As for UFC fighters "testing" their style in the ring, what I see is that everyone in UFC fights the same now. They all train the same stuff, boxing, BJJ, and kickboxing. So, how can you say that they are "testing" their fighting style against other styles?


 
In the gym and at the lower level of tournaments, they frequently fight people from other systems.  There are several systems of grappling and striking, and while the Big Four (BJJ, western wrestling, western boxing, muay thai) is the dominent mix now, other mixtures do exist including judo in the place of BJJ, or SAMBO or submission wrestling in the place of BJJ and wrestling, or Kyokushin karate in the place of muay thai, or kickboxing and some limited work with knees in the place of boxing and muay thai and so forth.  There is a great variety of personal fighting styles as well.  



> In the early UFC's there were people that competed who trained a style for years, this is not so anymore. MMA takes a bit from one style and a bit from another, no real mastery of one style. This in my eyes does NOT make you a mixed martial artist. My view of a mixed martial artist is someone who's completed training in two or more arts/styles for a full understanding and mastery of one art before learning another.


 
You know, some people would say that no one can ever completely master even one style.  Besides, being well rounded seems to work alot better than being well trained in one displine and then being demolished by someone who can take you outside that area.  



> As for Emin wanting a no rules fight, street style, that would allow him to fully use his techniques while fighting.


 
This is NOT true.  The Gracies offered him both a fight without rules, in their gym, and a fight with rules in the UFC.  He wanted a fight with rules, but different ones than the UFC, and while the Gracies tried to negociate, he did not accept their counterproposals.  



> UFC has many rules designed to favor grappling. Grappling in the street is not as effective. Sure, you can take an opponent down to the ground in the street, but then your dealing with concrete not mats, painful. Or gravel from your opponents chest falling into your face, broken glass, nails, chairs, tables, parked cars, all kinds of objects in the street or real life that will get in the way. What about stairs? Would you grapple someone who attacks you on a stairway?


 
Why don't you ask the people who have done it instead of spouting of theory?  



> Wing Chun is designed for realistic street combat, not the octagon, and to compare the techniques to MMA or BJJ is comparing apples and oranges.
> In UFC your not allowed to strike the back of the neck, eye gouge, kick to the knee joint, groin, or even to use the neck take downs from Wing Chun, you can't knee the head of the opponent while they're getting up off the ground or kick them as they get up off the ground. You can't step on their face while their on the ground, etc. These are all things you would do in a street fight. To survive.


 
Perhaps you should consider no-rules challenges and see how they fare.  The Gracies, Chute-Boxe Academy, www.bullshido.com, and several MMA gyms are open to no rules fights.  Why don't we see wing chun people going and winning?  



> You wouldn't want to be totally wrapped up in an oppoent on the street while his buddies kick you in the face and head while your on the ground.


 
Of course.  On the other hand, someone might be alone and like most people, unskilled in grappling, in which case you could take them down and finish the fight very quickly.  



> As for Emin, he has had many real street fights in his life. In clubs, on the street, a couple of hundred. This is a Wing Chunner who HAS tested his style numerous times, and hey, he's still breathing, isn't crippled, and healthy to tell the tales.


 
Even assuming that this is true, its a figure easily matched by many bouncers and police officers who have no formal Martial arts training whatsoever. 



> We've had students come to our class that wrestled in High School and studied BJJ and MMA. We've used and taught them the anti-grappling. I assure you from experience that it works great against these stylists. Simply because their ultimate goal is to grab us with both their hands and submit. Very aggressive yes, but we don't grab back, leaving our hands free to strike numerous times within seconds. For seconds are all you have. Plus, the legs are pumping and kicking and we use the entire body to corkscrew them off or get out of arm bars and such. All at the same time, true to WC concept.


 
Ok, what are their MMA records?  What are their BJJ records?  What levels of wreslers are we talking about?  Every professional MMA fighter outside the former Soviet block has their entire pro record posted on www.Sherdog.com, so its easy to check - all I need is a name and proof that they actually lost to your tactics (like video or something).  Of course, you won't produce either.  



> I've trained many other arts before WC. And it's really just the easiest and most effecient way to fight that I have come across. I'm a small framed woman, and MMA, boxing, mui tai, kickboxing, BJJ and all that just does NOT work for me against larger opponents. PERIOD. I'm 120lbs. 5'5" and I bruise like a girl! lol! Every art I've ever taken, I've had to strip away the techniques that just wouldn't work for me in a street fight, that were too risky, and compromised my situation with a larger attacker. With WC I haven't had to do that. Not once.


 
Have you tried WC against a larger opponent who was competent in these other arts?  Small size always puts you at a disadvantage; having training where that isn't drawn out is problematic.   



> Sigh, unfortunately what I see, is that American society is impatient and arrogant. I live here, so I see it. We live in a happy meal, sitcome, 30 second, t.v. dinner society where people don't want to really devote time and truely train and learn an art. (this is a very general statement, their are a few people who are the exception). We want to be bad to the bone "fighers" in a very short amount of time. We're always in such a hurry to get nowhere.


 
The pro fighters train for many hours a day and with great intensity.  This is an absurd arguement.  Anyone who is going to get anywhere in any sport art must train very long and very hard in order to reach their full potential or to stand a chance against other sports fighters. 



> We want "proof" of suedo facts that reinforce and confirm that what we're training is real. Unfortunately, many of us must get this confirmation from t.v. or outside of ourselves, dojos, or quoons. This confirmation does not tell us the truth and is completely misleading.


 
Inside the dojo, you deal with partners who are not trying to beat you.  Even in sparring, they probably don't want to hurt you.  To say that you can fight well, you need to fight against people who are.  To prove it, you need the 3 Cs above.  



> I would never box in a street fight because my hands arent' wrapped and I would therefore break my hands should I make contact. Boxing is designed for the ring.


 
Many boxers and people throwing boxing punches have won streetfights without breaking their hands.  Your hands and wrists probably are not properly conditioned, but those of others are. 



> I would never use BJJ because concrete is hard and my tail bone, spine, hip, or head isn't. BJJ is designed for the ring.


 
No.  BJJ was designed for the Gracie family's self defense needs.  It was taken to the ring because Helio Gracie believed that it was a more effective fighting method than most other ways available and wanted to prove it rather than assert it.  It turns out he was right.  



> I would never use kickboxing in the street because high kicks take time to execute


 
Some MMAists share this sentiment; others have good high kicks and do not share it.  



> and oil, beer/water on the floor at a club, chairs, tables, a hall or alleyway is confining and would make many techniques impractical.


 
You should be aware of you surroundings and know when you do and do not have an opening for a particular technique.  



> Plus, when kicking high your on only one leg, I could kick someone in the head as I get tackled by his buddie, or while they swing a two by four in the back of my head.


 
Easier said than done.  



> Kickboxing is designed for the ring.


 
It was a better working modification of the battlefield art of karate. 



> We train to fight multiple attackers in class.


 
Perhaps you should start with being able to fight well against one person you know is coming and progress to multiples and surpises.  



> It's about changing theway you think. Your strategy in the street is totally different than in the ring. With multiple attackers you go for the break, not the submission. I want to break one's leg with a low heel kick the first time,


 
Has this ever been done sucessfully against a competent fighter?  Evidence?



> followed up by chain punching or other technique, spending no more than 6-8 seconds on one person. I want to keep moving, keep my feet, and get ready for the next attacker. No time to "submit".
> 
> A rapist would not be beaten my submission. He would have to be devastated.


 
You have lapsed into theory.  Who have you been able to fight against sucessfully in this manner?  



> Quickly, and without remorse. If he will take affections from me by force, then he will take more, like my very life.
> Same thing with a mugger or street thug trying to prove something.
> These people do not deserve "rules of engagement" or submission, or any quarter from me or anyone. This is what we train to defend against.
> We're not training for metals, tropheys, or recognition. We fight to live, we fight to keep from being maimed, scared, or from just being victimized.
> Apples and oranges.
> MMA and Wing Chun.


 
This is more nonsense.  



> Both me and my husband have grown up in tough neighborhoods, with gangs, thugs, molestors, junkies, pimps, and all kinds of criminal element. We know what will work and what won't when it counts. Devastate the opponent quickly before they get to a knife, gun, or other weapon, before they go get help from their buddies. The street is unforgiving and leaves no room for error, mercy, or hesitation.


 
Hmm...


----------



## ed-swckf

Its ridiculously boring and generic threads like this that make this place one to avoid.  Since my time here i have seen so much inane squawking about this vs that, generally knocking other arts and using baseless comments and futile arguments.  To be honest it seems much more like a competition than a discussion, i swear i would not be supprised if people began comparing the size of their manhood in these threads.  It seems people from all arts are guilty of this but being as this is the area i mainly frequent i see it here the most.  Just wanted to say i'm bored of the unsubstantial, inconclusive, petty back and forth threads.


----------



## Si-Je

Rook said:


> You know, some people would say that no one can ever completely master even one style. Besides, being well rounded seems to work alot better than being well trained in one displine and then being demolished by someone who can take you outside that area. ...


 
when I say "master" I mean to have a full understanding of the art in question.  There are not very many masters these days, and to aspire to be one before crosstraining would be impractical.



Rook said:


> This is NOT true. The Gracies offered him both a fight without rules, in their gym, ...


 
I wouldn't consider a fight in the gracies personal gym a fight without rules, dear.  lol!



Rook said:


> Perhaps you should consider no-rules challenges and see how they fare. The Gracies, Chute-Boxe Academy, www.bullshido.com, and several MMA gyms are open to no rules fights. Why don't we see wing chun people going and winning? ...


 
Probably because the really good WC people don't care about competition and have nothing to prove to other stylists.  You seem to be very confrontational about this competing stuff, and get your feathers ruffled about people that aren't impressed with your competitions.
Question, can you kick the groin?  Gouge the eye?  Kick the knee?  Chop the throat? 
I ask because I don't know anything about these competitions.  Don't really care.  But I know that MMA and the Gracies have many rules of combat regardless of what is said.  I don't know why people don't compete from wing chun schools, I don't have any control over what others do or don't do.  Nor do I know why.



Rook said:


> Of course. On the other hand, someone might be alone and like most people, unskilled in grappling, in which case you could take them down and finish the fight very quickly. ...


 
In a perfect world that would be so...  But last I checked many many people take grappling these days.  Plus, last time I experienced a street confrontation, they are NEVER alone.



Rook said:


> Even assuming that this is true, its a figure easily matched by many bouncers and police officers who have no formal Martial arts training whatsoever. ...


 
That may be so, but it doesn't detract from the "fact" that Emin is an experienced fighter.  So, your point is moot.




Rook said:


> Ok, what are their MMA records? What are their BJJ records? What levels of wreslers are we talking about? Every professional MMA fighter outside the former Soviet block has their entire pro record posted on www.Sherdog.com, so its easy to check - all I need is a name and proof that they actually lost to your tactics (like video or something). Of course, you won't produce either. ...


 
Darlin', these people that have come to our class have been students of wrestling and BJJ/MMA for a year or two.  These were NOT purse professional fighters.  I never said that they were, or that they were 'PRO".  That would be silly.  Your being silly.  This conversation is becoming silly.  lol!
If we wish to compete against these Sherdog.com fighters then we'll train a student or my instructor/husband will train to compete.  (He's been wanting to do that for some time now, he like to compete.)  
And per your aggressive request, we WILL take video and "produce it".  



Rook said:


> Have you tried WC against a larger opponent who was competent in these other arts? Small size always puts you at a disadvantage; having training where that isn't drawn out is problematic. ...


 
Yes, dear.  I have.  But what does it matter to you?  I have all the proof I need through training, and experience.  




Rook said:


> The pro fighters train for many hours a day and with great intensity. This is an absurd arguement. Anyone who is going to get anywhere in any sport art must train very long and very hard in order to reach their full potential or to stand a chance against other sports fighters. ...


 
Again, we don't train to fight pro fighters.  We train realistic self-defense.  Apples and Oranges my friend.  And I would not fight someone who does train as a pro athlete in a realm of rules and regulations.  This would not benefit my situation.  I'm broke all the time and can't afford the grocery bill to train like those folks, the gym membership, the personal trainers, and we work for a living, so don't train 8 hours a day.  lol!  
(although we'd love to, and now the school is opened we may be able to train 8 hours a day!!)
So, why would I fight a man/woman who trains like that under any kind of rules?  funny, so funny.



Rook said:


> Inside the dojo, you deal with partners who are not trying to beat you. Even in sparring, they probably don't want to hurt you. To say that you can fight well, you need to fight against people who are. To prove it, you need the 3 Cs above. ...


 
Again, I don't need to prove it by beating the crap out of someone.  We spar with full gear like MMA folks do in their gyms.  In an actual fight things would get much more vicious, and dirty.  Even dirtier than in the octagon, or cage.  
So, how can you "practice" someone trying to kill you? lol!
Again, silliness.  Your going to far with your concept of reality.  Or not far enough, if your thinking that fighting in the cage is the equalivalent to reality on the street.



Rook said:


> Many boxers and people throwing boxing punches have won streetfights without breaking their hands. Your hands and wrists probably are not properly conditioned, but those of others are. ...


 
LOL!  Again, I'm not Mike Tyson! That's my point.  unless your strong and muscular then these types of styles won't benefit you.  Your proving my point.



Rook said:


> Perhaps you should start with being able to fight well against one person you know is coming and progress to multiples and surpises. ...


 
That's exactly how we train.  



Rook said:


> You have lapsed into theory. Who have you been able to fight against sucessfully in this manner? ...


 
I've used the art when I needed it, and we've sparred and tried out our techniques with other schools and types of fighters.  I've been pretty successful, my teacher has done very very well.  We have a few instructors that are buddies of ours and we go to eachothers schools and "play", share techniques and sparr for good cross style practice.  Even a few tournaments.  No big deal.  Just checking out ourselves to make sure we're learning and progressing as we should.



Rook said:


> This is more nonsense. ...


 
You shut the door to your mind far too quickly.  You've been told what is possible and impossible and you do not question it.  The mind is very powerful.  
I came from a strong Ju-Jitsu background when I started WC and had to train myself not to be defeated just because I was put in a joint lock, or to think that I had submitted someone and won just because I had them (especially my teacher who always got out of my holds) in a choke, or armbar.  I found that my perceptions of fighting and "winning" were distorted and my confidence in my ability to submit misplaced.  Sure, on the average joe I'd probably be okay, but anyone trained to strike or a wacked out idiot from the street would be another story.

I used to think very much the way you do in these matters until I started training WC.  I had to get slapped around alot before I came to understand that what I was trying to do to my instructor as counters were NOT working.  I was drilled and trained that these techniques will always work, and they don't.  simple as that.  I was mad, I was frustrated, I was sad, I was a stubborn student and difficult for him to train in my first year.  
But, once I learned to let go of my old training, I could open my mind to 
what was being taught to me and learn.  Making me a better martial artist (I'm only a "fighter" in the street when I absolutely have to be, not in the ring or cage.) teacher, and person.

I think you missed the gist of my post.  And will not explain more to you.  Becasue it seems you just wish to fuss.


----------



## Rook

Si-Je said:


> when I say "master" I mean to have a full understanding of the art in question. There are not very many masters these days, and to aspire to be one before crosstraining would be impractical.


 
What would you consider a "full understanding?"  Even at the end of his life, Funakoshi said that he was only begining to understand the most basic block in karate, and he is considered the father of Japanese karate, and by some all modern karate.  



> I wouldn't consider a fight in the gracies personal gym a fight without rules, dear. lol!


 
They have no prohibited techniques and no restrictions on tactics or strategies.  



> Probably because the really good WC people don't care about competition and have nothing to prove to other stylists. You seem to be very confrontational about this competing stuff, and get your feathers ruffled about people that aren't impressed with your competitions.
> Question, can you kick the groin? Gouge the eye? Kick the knee? Chop the throat?


 
With the Gracies or the Bullshido people etc - ABSOLUTELY.  People try it over and over.  As for the knee kick it is both common and universally allowed in ALL major MMA competitions.  



> I ask because I don't know anything about these competitions. Don't really care. But I know that MMA and the Gracies have many rules of combat regardless of what is said.


 
The modern tournaments do have many rules.  If you want to fight without them, you need to set up a challenge match, which is neither hard to do nor uncommon.  



> I don't know why people don't compete from wing chun schools, I don't have any control over what others do or don't do. Nor do I know why.


 
I do.  They lose, and they know they will lose, and have decided that a more potent strategy for getting students is to appeal to people who don't know any better rather than trying to "correct" the record.  



> In a perfect world that would be so... But last I checked many many people take grappling these days. Plus, last time I experienced a street confrontation, they are NEVER alone.


 
Many fights are one on one.  Also, most people are not skilled in grappling.  



> That may be so, but it doesn't detract from the "fact" that Emin is an experienced fighter. So, your point is moot.


 
Emin has not proven that even ONE of his streetfights ever even took place - you have simply chosen to take him at his word without any video or court documents or anything. Also, even if his streetfights were real, they would prove little about his abilities as a fighter, as many people win just as many streetfights without any martial arts ability, so it really doesn't mean that he fights better or as well as anyone else. 



> Darlin', these people that have come to our class have been students of wrestling and BJJ/MMA for a year or two. These were NOT purse professional fighters. I never said that they were, or that they were 'PRO". That would be silly. Your being silly. This conversation is becoming silly. lol!


 
Assuming your "anti-grappling" worked at all, that is why.  The fact is that it still has NEVER ONCE been used sucessfully against ANY quality professional fighter... so how can we be discussing it as a defense against their tactics if it has never been used sucessfully against them?



> If we wish to compete against these Sherdog.com fighters then we'll train a student or my instructor/husband will train to compete. (He's been wanting to do that for some time now, he like to compete.)
> And per your aggressive request, we WILL take video and "produce it".


 
I will look forward to seeing it.  



> Yes, dear. I have. But what does it matter to you? I have all the proof I need through training, and experience.


 
You must not have fought anyone competent yet... thats what I keep saying.  



> Again, we don't train to fight pro fighters. We train realistic self-defense. Apples and Oranges my friend. And I would not fight someone who does train as a pro athlete in a realm of rules and regulations. This would not benefit my situation. I'm broke all the time and can't afford the grocery bill to train like those folks, the gym membership, the personal trainers, and we work for a living, so don't train 8 hours a day. lol!
> (although we'd love to, and now the school is opened we may be able to train 8 hours a day!!)
> So, why would I fight a man/woman who trains like that under any kind of rules? funny, so funny.


 
Because their fighting seems to work a lot better?



> Again, I don't need to prove it by beating the crap out of someone. We spar with full gear like MMA folks do in their gyms. In an actual fight things would get much more vicious, and dirty. Even dirtier than in the octagon, or cage.
> So, how can you "practice" someone trying to kill you? lol!


 
You don't practice stuff that can't be done full contact; thats how sports stylists become proficient is by fighting will full resistance rather than demostrating their eyepoke on a compliant opponent.  

You CAN still test the "dirty" tactics you seem so enamored with.  



> LOL! Again, I'm not Mike Tyson! That's my point. unless your strong and muscular then these types of styles won't benefit you. Your proving my point.


 
How so?  I have seen very small boxers who can hit quite hard FOR THEIR SIZE. 



> That's exactly how we train.


 
Except that you (and anyone from your style to date) haven't managed to beat any one competent opponent and according to your remarks above, aren't interested in trying.  



> I've used the art when I needed it, and we've sparred and tried out our techniques with other schools and types of fighters. I've been pretty successful, my teacher has done very very well. We have a few instructors that are buddies of ours and we go to eachothers schools and "play", share techniques and sparr for good cross style practice. Even a few tournaments. No big deal. Just checking out ourselves to make sure we're learning and progressing as we should.


 
No, you discussed preventing a submission via strikes, a very specific claim.  When has this happened and against what level of opponent with what consistancy?  



> You shut the door to your mind far too quickly. You've been told what is possible and impossible and you do not question it. The mind is very powerful.


 
I believe anything there is proof for and nothing there is not.  I believe little that I have been told and not SHOWN. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof... I'd settle for regular proof... I'd respect some beginings of proof... I could discuss progess towards the beginings of proof.  You have given me nothing of the sort - just claims and a demand that I trust you rather than being shown evidence.  



> I came from a strong Ju-Jitsu background when I started WC and had to train myself not to be defeated just because I was put in a joint lock, or to think that I had submitted someone and won just because I had them (especially my teacher who always got out of my holds) in a choke, or armbar. I found that my perceptions of fighting and "winning" were distorted and my confidence in my ability to submit misplaced. Sure, on the average joe I'd probably be okay, but anyone trained to strike or a wacked out idiot from the street would be another story.
> 
> I used to think very much the way you do in these matters until I started training WC. I had to get slapped around alot before I came to understand that what I was trying to do to my instructor as counters were NOT working. I was drilled and trained that these techniques will always work, and they don't. simple as that. I was mad, I was frustrated, I was sad, I was a stubborn student and difficult for him to train in my first year.
> But, once I learned to let go of my old training, I could open my mind to
> what was being taught to me and learn. Making me a better martial artist (I'm only a "fighter" in the street when I absolutely have to be, not in the ring or cage.) teacher, and person. I think you missed the gist of my post. And will not explain more to you. Becasue it seems you just wish to fuss.


 
Ok.


----------



## shesulsa

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Admin note:

To be honest, this same argument coming out of everything is tiresome and now a bit off-topic ... again.

If there is anything further to discuss on the original topic, then this is the final warning to do so before the thread is closed.  For the ongoing debate on TMA vs MMA, take it somewhere else ... another thread or TGD.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assistant Administrator*


----------



## monji112000

thank G-D I am soo TIRED of this topic. MMA vrs (insert a TMA).

I thought I was the only one.


----------



## Si-Je

The issue of why Emin has left EWTO has been addressed.  My instructor was a Si-Hing of his when this all was taking place, and we have our insight to why he left based on seeing it happen as it happened.  

And this very topic always seems to bring up William Chueng, the Gracies, and the effictiveness of anti-grappling on every post i've ever seem made on any board on the net.  I find that to be very interesting and strange, since neither Chueng, or the Gracies have a THING to do with why he left.  
Although, his creation and intigration of anti-grappling does.  For it sparked an ugly money disagreement between him and Ling Ting, which led to further ugliness when Ling Ting tried to get him arrested by setting up 5-6 people to jump him as he came to an event (which he was invited to by Ling Ting with the premiss of safety and good will).  
Thus, he was warned by his escrima teacher not to go, that these men were going to attack him and then Ling Ting was going to call the cops on Emin, portraying him as a bully and instigator and thus, getting him arrested.  All to discredit Emin so Ling Ting could charge outrageous fees to current Sifu's to learn the anti-grappling, and so he could keep in under his system only.
So, Emin didn't go, and dodged that bullet.  While Emin wanted it taught for virtually no money to all Wing Chun Sifu's in all federations, not just EWTO.

Emin split off from EWTO and Ling Ting, starting his own federation.  Stating that he'd made alot of money for Ling Ting, and was not going to be used by him anymore.  Emin was heartbroken, they were great friends and his Sifu for over 20 years.  Like a father to him.  And it seems that Emin was horribly betrayed by his master.  
So, Ling Ting went to closing down his schools in Europe and America, thus bankrupting Emin.  He gave many Technicians ranking as Sifu if they would leave Emin and join his federation.  So, most of them took that deal.  
Emin has had to rebuild from the ground up after the betrayal of his teacher.  There is the truth on why he left.  Ugliness, greed, and corruption in a federation, and his desire to be free of it.  
This is very controversial topic all by itself, and I dont' know why people feel the need to throw William Chueng and the Gracies into it, MMA and all the other noise.  Most people don't and won't like this posting, but it's the truth to what happened to Emin.  He even talks about it in his interview from that time, we have it on VHS at the house.  I believe Emin, I believe my husband, what others believe is not my concern, nor, my responsibility.

I really like Emin Boztepe, I think he is a great man, and great martial artist. He's very idealistic, and I believe that his intentions are generally good natured.  He has a good sense of humor, a great grasp of truth, whether in reguards to martial art techniques or life, and the ability to demonstrate his skill and knowledge in his art.  I respect the man.  And there aren't many "masters" that I respect and agree with in the arts.    

I regards to getting off topic: 
I apologize if I offended others with my opinions on martial arts.  And this is a discussion that has plagued many boards on the net.  There really seems to be a large divide between MMA and TMA, and people take each for their own reasons.  We teach, so I am very interested and passionate about this subject.  This issue is something me and my husband deal with on almost a daily basis while teaching and training.  As we have trained and has experience with both, our opinions are not blind or biased without basis for our reasons.  

It's been really educational for me to find out how people really feel on these issues in regards to teaching.  Having these annoying discussions has given me more insight on what people want out of training, what they expect, what their pre-concieved notions are when coming to class, what their fears are, and thus, to make me a better teacher. 

I'm human, I have opinions, views, and beliefs.  Obviously they're not shared by others here, or are very unpopular.  This is also good to know for the betterment of me, our school, and our students.

So, I thank you for letting me know where your opinions lie, and what you think of mine.  I didn't write what my instructor/husband wanted me to say, for this issue truely vex's him in how people think about true self-defense.  And again, I apologize if anyone was annoyed or offended.  That was not my intention.  My intention was to provoke thought and discussion.


----------



## bcbernam777

shesulsa said:


> *ATTENTION ALL USERS:
> 
> Admin note:
> 
> To be honest, this same argument coming out of everything is tiresome and now a bit off-topic ... again.
> 
> If there is anything further to discuss on the original topic, then this is the final warning to do so before the thread is closed.  For the ongoing debate on TMA vs MMA, take it somewhere else ... another thread or TGD.
> 
> G Ketchmark / shesulsa
> MT Assistant Administrator*



 I agree however it makes it difficult when time after time a certain select few from the MMA camp seem to take it up on themselves to highjack every single thread in the WC section that may contain even the merest whiff of grappling/anti grappling to do one thing, ridicule the arts effectiveness. I dont see the WC set doing the same to the MMA section. And I sure as heck am not going to let someone denigrate WC on its own forum, if they want to run it down then they can take it to the MMA forum and ***** about it to their hearts content.


----------



## Si-Je

I have noticed that as well.  And I agree that it is rude to shoot down WC on it's own board.  You do have a very good point.


----------



## shesulsa

bcbernam777 said:


> I agree however it makes it difficult when time after time a certain select few from the MMA camp seem to take it up on themselves to highjack every single thread in the WC section that may contain even the merest whiff of grappling/anti grappling to do one thing, ridicule the arts effectiveness. I dont see the WC set doing the same to the MMA section. And I sure as heck am not going to let someone denigrate WC on its own forum, if they want to run it down then they can take it to the MMA forum and ***** about it to their hearts content.





			
				Si-Je said:
			
		

> I have noticed that as well. And I agree that it is rude to shoot down WC on it's own board. You do have a very good point.



Being rude, it can make it difficult, yes, and that is why every user can report a post which breaks the rules and, for the record on this thread, hijacking threads is against the rules on MartialTalk.  SO ... if this happens again, click on the little red outlined triangle with the " ! " in the middle in the upper right hand corner of the post, type your comment, and a work ticket will be generated in the staff area automatically.

Again ... *every* user can do this.  Please take care, because abuse of this feature is *also* against the rules.  That is to say, if someone disagrees with you and tries to engage you in the rigorous debate of your opinion on the topic, that is *not* an instance where the RTM feature is necessary nor useful.  But if a thread is being hijacked, feel free to use that feature in the post you find out of line.


----------



## Rook

bcbernam777 said:


> I agree however it makes it difficult when time after time a certain select few from the MMA camp seem to take it up on themselves to highjack every single thread in the WC section that may contain even the merest whiff of grappling/anti grappling to do one thing, ridicule the arts effectiveness. I dont see the WC set doing the same to the MMA section. And I sure as heck am not going to let someone denigrate WC on its own forum, if they want to run it down then they can take it to the MMA forum and ***** about it to their hearts content.


 
I have never started a thread to bash someone's art or practices; I come in to RESPOND to statements that other people have made.  When people discuss anti-grappling, they are making a claim that they can defend against something that I and many other people practice.   We have made a habit of training based on the idea of giving everyone an opportunity to try anything and taking what we see working, we find it rather bizarre that someone would both claim to be able to negate a large portion of our fighting style while refraining from offering any evidence.  That strikes me more as an insult that needs to be responded to - and although I and my compatriots have been aggressive in the defense of what we have seen and experianced, I do not think that at any point we have been less than civil.


----------



## shesulsa

Rook said:


> I have never started a thread to bash someone's art or practices; I come in to RESPOND to statements that other people have made.  When people discuss anti-grappling, they are making a claim that they can defend against something that I and many other people practice.   We have made a habit of training based on the idea of giving everyone an opportunity to try anything and taking what we see working, we find it rather bizarre that someone would both claim to be able to negate a large portion of our fighting style while refraining from offering any evidence.  That strikes me more as an insult that needs to be responded to - and although I and my compatriots have been aggressive in the defense of what we have seen and experianced, I do not think that at any point we have been less than civil.


As long as your argument is ON THE TOPIC and productive towards that end, that's fine.  But if your sole purpose is to find every single mention of MMA, grappling, evidence, etcetera, and turn it towards your agenda, you'll find that we don't tolerate that well here.  Part and parcel of the whole TOS.  If you have any further questions regarding this, please feel free to bring this up in the Support Area.

We have been generous with people ignoring the moderator warnings thus far, however this disruption will no longer be tolerated.

This is the final warning.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assistant Administrator


----------



## Shogun

personally, I give a million kudos to CMA practitioners who have to put up with dudes who spent 3 months learning TMA, started training MMA, and bash TMA. its rediculous. I hope I didn't come across as one of these guys. I still train TMA, and was only stressing the ignorance of training against another style without actually training it.

seriously, I would get so freaking frustrated (and have) with some of the BJJ/MMA/shoot fight/etc _tough guys_ that come on here.


----------



## EternalSpringtime

Shogun said:


> personally, I give a million kudos to CMA practitioners who have to put up with dudes who spent 3 months learning TMA, started training MMA, and bash TMA. its rediculous. I hope I didn't come across as one of these guys. I still train TMA, and was only stressing the ignorance of training against another style without actually training it.
> 
> seriously, I would get so freaking frustrated (and have) with some of the BJJ/MMA/shoot fight/etc _tough guys_ that come on here.


 
Of course it would be that way. You cannot compare duration of time in training progress, rather than to compare what effort you put towards training. MMA trainers trains much more harder than a TMA trainer. That's because they compete and need to be good, otherwise they are just gonna be a name in the dew, since many other competitiors trains harder.

Being open minded is a perfect strategy like you said. I totally agree, but whether TMA is better than MMA ot the other way around?. I don't think this is something we can really say. 

MMA really showed the world that style bashing is not enough, you have to train and prove the thing we do. Now I train Wing Chun. We have many people from other systems joined us. I am not saying about rookies and beginers, some of them were masters in other arts. Does that mean that their systems were ineffective?!. No way. I beleive that neither of us can say what is effective or not unless we try it and observe the full picture, becuase beleive me that media is not always everything we watch and believe.

People like the Gracies, Boztepe, and Rutten are all great to learn from. I wish that I could learn from all of them. I don't care who challenged who and wanted to fight in his place. Once trainers will have the mentality of taking what is positive and develop it for yourself, then you will start to see what really works in every fighting situation.


----------



## shesulsa

_*admin Note:

Thread Locked Due To Continued Off-topic Discussion.

G Ketchmark / Shesulsa
Mt Assistant Administrator*_


----------

