# Why do New Agers Make Our Blood Boil So?



## grydth (Mar 5, 2007)

You want to get folks here to go zero to sixty in 2 seconds, just mention those who practice Tai Chi not as a martial art. 

This is assumed to be a terrible blasphemy, and blame for the heresy is variously laid on Cheng Man Ching, Yang Cheng Fu, America in general, a New Age conspiracy.

Question: why do we care so much?

I'm from the martial arts branch...... but if I see a batch of folks doing an exercise thing or even a hippie thing - what's it have to do with me? I don't want to join these communes by any means, but why not just pass 'em by? Who cares what they are doing? Heaven knows, some probably do experience some health benefits and stress reduction.

But I must confess that even I am prone to a furious rant if something - let's just call it TCC, comes up in conversation.

Is the fault with them - or with us?


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## Steel Tiger (Mar 5, 2007)

From my point of view, its not so much that they are not doing a martial version of taiji it is the general attitude of the new age movement.  I was trained as an archaeologist and anthropologist and as a result I can often see the processes that go into making some belief or practise.  There is good and bad in tradition, but not if you're a new ager.

The new ager takes only the good bits and leave those they find distasteful or too difficult.  Furthermore, its a grab-bag of fluffy ideas and concepts from dozens of different cultures and traditions.  Now the MMAer takes what is good and leaves the rest but he does not then go on to say he represents some continuing tradition that has existed for 5000 years.  The new ager is morally, philosophically, and culturally bankrupt.


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## CoryKS (Mar 5, 2007)

Wow, not much to add to Steel Tiger's post.  IMO, New Agers are cultural tourists.  They like to dabble in other people's cultures, at least the ones that back up their own poorly-thought-out philosophies, without any inkling of what those cultural traits were designed to do or how adopting them might affect their own society.  It's culture as fashion.


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## grydth (Mar 5, 2007)

For discussion sake only, suppose we could agree New Agers are superficial and misguided fools. Let's say they have nothing to offer or teach us.

So why do we get so *angry* at them? Why not ignore them as we do the lunatic on the street corner or a Tv show which doesn't interest us?


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## CoryKS (Mar 5, 2007)

grydth said:


> For discussion sake only, suppose we could agree New Agers are superficial and misguided fools. Let's say they have nothing to offer or teach us.
> 
> So why do we get so *angry* at them? Why not ignore them as we do the lunatic on the street corner or a Tv show which doesn't interest us?


 
Because we _can't_ agree that they are fools.  Just about everybody agrees that street corner lunatics are just that, and choose to ignore them.  But growing numbers of people seem to actually believe the goofy bs that the new agers spout, and eventually want to base policy upon it.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 5, 2007)

grydth said:


> Is the fault with them - or with us?


"_The fault, dear Brutus. lies not within our stars, but within us._"

(I'm guessing your name isn't Brutus, so my apologies. :uhohh: )

Perhaps we wish for their Devil-may-care attitudes toward life. Or their complete disregard for actual history. Everyone, from the wimpiest nerd to the manliest MMA'er, wants an occasional warm fuzzy, even if they deny it 'til their dying breath. Maybe that's what we object to.

But what's with this "they" and "we" stuff? Isn't this a gross generalization? Do I fit into "we" because I've used taiji in actual self-defense situations, only to fall into the "they" camp when I use qigong to make a terminally-ill person at ease? 

To use Steel Tiger's interesting metaphor of MMA'ers using what is useful and discarding the rest - I've been an Admin, Moderator and member of many MA boards over the years, but the most vocal arguments I can recall have been with MMA practitioners who, although they did indeed take what was practical from many styles, totally disregarded that which was too "touchy-feely" or metaphysical in nature. If it didn't produce immediate results then it was quickly thrown out. If it didn't quite fit in with their preconceived notions of what martial arts are all about, it was ignored and belittled. No matter that others had experienced success with certain techniques or philosophies - if it didn't give immediate satisfaction, out it went.

Isn't that the polar opposite of the present definition here of New Ager? And if so, how is it any better than the other? Each is warm and snug in their beliefs...each would offer rationalization upon rationalization as to why they do what they do...each is equally right and wrong.

How are we so positioned that we can say what is good and bad in any practice, except for ourselves?

Great thread, btw, Grydth!


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## Steel Tiger (Mar 5, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> Because we _can't_ agree that they are fools. Just about everybody agrees that street corner lunatics are just that, and choose to ignore them. But growing numbers of people seem to actually believe the goofy bs that the new agers spout, and eventually want to base policy upon it.


 
This is the truth of the problem.  People are believing them and their homogenised, broken view of spirituality.  But why? Because there appears to be a genuine need in the community for something beyond the material.  Unfortunately it is being catered to by money-hungry hypocrites with no grounding in anything they are talking about.


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## Carol (Mar 5, 2007)

grydth said:


> So why do we get so *angry* at them? Why not ignore them as we do the lunatic on the street corner or a Tv show which doesn't interest us?


 
Because there are so many of them! So many that their fluffy take on (whatever) becomes what the public understands...such as a person having an interest in crystals must only do so because of some sort of faddish spiritual reason and not because of a genuine interest in the stones and the cultural and/or geological significances behind them.


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## Carol (Mar 5, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> This is the truth of the problem. People are believing them and their homogenised, broken view of spirituality. But why? Because there appears to be a genuine need in the community for something beyond the material. Unfortunately it is being catered to by money-hungry hypocrites with no grounding in anything they are talking about.


 
Err...yeah...what Steel Tiger said, because he said it better than I did


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## charyuop (Mar 6, 2007)

grydth said:


> You want to get folks here to go zero to sixty in 2 seconds, just mention those who practice Tai Chi not as a martial art.
> 
> This is assumed to be a terrible blasphemy, and blame for the heresy is variously laid on Cheng Man Ching, Yang Cheng Fu, America in general, a New Age conspiracy.


 
That is me...sorry about the fact that I, a 35 year old man, do Tai Chi with no Martial Art aspect included offends you so much.
Why you get so angry? I guess I could call it Ego. Since you do it as a Martial Art, that is the only way to do it.
But I will tell you more. In my group there are another couple of guys of my age apart from all the 50-60 and also past 70 year old people who, thanx to Tai Chi, can keep their joints mobile and not end up in a wheelchair.
If that helps your poor hurt feelings I am even willing to call it, instead of Tai Chi, Mac & Cheese.


And I admit that what really surprised me is that some people think it like you, people that I had started to think very good about just by reading their posts.


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## grydth (Mar 6, 2007)

charyuop said:


> That is me...sorry about the fact that I, a 35 year old man, do Tai Chi with no Martial Art aspect included offends you so much.
> Why you get so angry? I guess I could call it Ego. Since you do it as a Martial Art, that is the only way to do it.
> But I will tell you more. In my group there are another couple of guys of my age apart from all the 50-60 and also past 70 year old people who, thanx to Tai Chi, can keep their joints mobile and not end up in a wheelchair.
> If that helps your poor hurt feelings I am even willing to call it, instead of Tai Chi, Mac & Cheese.
> ...



I think you have mistaken my meaning and my purpose for starting this thread, and I know there is an Italian/English translation process here which can sometimes lead to misunderstandings. There are a variety of opinions here, but I think you have mistakenly put me with another group.

Others can correct me if I am misquoting them, but I do not think anyone is angered or disgusted by people doing Tai Chi for health reasons. Clearly there are benefits for:  elders seeking better balance and general fitness, people seeking to ease the effects of arthritis or juat anyone seeking to calm down or lower stress. Perhaps there are questions over whether such  should be called "Tai Chi", but to me, this is a labelling issue only.

What seems to anger people is the hijacking of what is a traditional martial art by a New Age system seeking to misuse it to promote a philosophy we find to be shallow if not outright dishonest. 

Gnerally I do believe in tolerance and not getting upset about what others are doing..... But, I cited TCC as the example which I believe is an artificial monstrosity.


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## grydth (Mar 6, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Err...yeah...what Steel Tiger said, because he said it better than I did



So.... it seems the problems you folks have with New Agers go much deeper than their co-opting of a martial art. *Now* I am starting to understand....


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## SifuPhil (Mar 6, 2007)

grydth said:


> What seems to anger people is the hijacking of what is a traditional martial art by a New Age system seeking to misuse it to promote a philosophy we find to be shallow if not outright dishonest.


Perhaps I've been in isolation a little too long and away from what's really going on in the world, but could you, Grydth, or anyone for that matter,  please explain how the NA'ers are using taiji to promote a philosophy? What philosophy? How do they use taiji to promote it? Where is this happening, and could you also please point me to a source that I could see with my own two eyes?  



> Gnerally I do believe in tolerance and not getting upset about what others are doing..... But, I cited TCC as the example which I believe is an artificial monstrosity.


Clarify, please - "artificial monstrosity"...


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## grydth (Mar 6, 2007)

SifuPhil said:


> Perhaps I've been in isolation a little too long and away from what's really going on in the world, but could you, Grydth, or anyone for that matter, please explain how the NA'ers are using taiji to promote a philosophy? What philosophy? How do they use taiji to promote it? Where is this happening, and could you also please point me to a source that I could see with my own two eyes?
> 
> 
> Clarify, please - "artificial monstrosity"...



I'll let the folks who originally raised the points against the New Agers defend them; they are a capable batch and I look forward to the discussion. This is exactly what I was seeking to promote, and to learn more about, when I started this.

Generally, I could care less what others are doing. I do what I wish to do.... to include the two Qi Gong sets you wrote about. 

As a self-described "gray beard", I believe you are trying to promote tolerance and diversity. If only more elders in our society would take on that role, instead of acting like and pretending to be 20 year olds ....

However, I do also note in your book that you do go into detail to show Tai Chi is *not* in any way, "New Age" (see page 17). You do this without slamming anyone else, but the point made is a most firm one.

I have to save details of my severe dissatisfaction with Tai Chi Chih for another time. By Forum rules, if I air that in detail here, the thread must be moved by a moderator to another section devoted to that type of discussion. I would rather this thread stay under "Chinese Arts" than be sent to "Horror Stories". I recall there are already threads on this system here, which a site search should reveal.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 6, 2007)

First let me say if you want to know more about how I feel about this just look around MT I have numerous rants on this very subject

I could not care less about what the new agers do with Taiji. If they want to go out and train the Taiji dance to make the world a better place where "life is happy, life is good, and everything works just like it should" more power to them.

However when they come into a class and start training and then bring all their friends, this does not upset me so much but it is what happens next. Taiji to them is a moving "peaceful" meditation for health and fighting has absolutely nothing to do with that so they will not do push hands or applications. And to be honest this does not bother me that much either, to each his own. However that is ALWAYS just the tip of the iceberg. They then start pressuring the sifu to stop doing martial arts and they get upset if the sifu corrects them and they end up doing the Taiji health interpretive dance and because they are paying the money to take the class they want it to be EXACTLY what they believe it is. They do not want to actually learn it or understand it they want it to fit their own little picture of what they believe it is or SHOULD be.

I have seen 2 schools fall to this, luckily; so far the second appears to be returning to what it use to be. But the first is, as far a real CMA or Taiji are concerned dead. 

I had a gentleman at the first school once tell me, after we did the 2 person form and he did it, for lack of better words "half assed" after I said to him he needed to be more correct if the application was to work. He responded with "I don't DO martial arts!!! I DO tai chi" as if martial arts was something beneath him. 

The second school went through the whole deal and the sifu lost ALL of his senior students, myself included. Over the period of 2 years he went form teaching push hands, applications and correcting forms to letting everyone do the form...well at least roughly the form and not teaching applications or push hands or any thing martial art. 

It appears he could not live with this and has changed back, much to the upset of his new students who are slowly leaving and much to the joy of his advanced students (myself included) that are returning. 

If someone wants to go out and train the Taiji interpretive health dance I have no problem with them at all. And if they come to my Taiji class and do not want the martial side I have no problem with that at all either. I will not force it on them. However it is when they decide to force their views of Taiji on me or others like me that I have a real problem.


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## Carol (Mar 6, 2007)

grydth said:


> Others can correct me if I am misquoting them, but I do not think anyone is angered or disgusted by people doing Tai Chi for health reasons. Clearly there are benefits for:  elders seeking better balance and general fitness, people seeking to ease the effects of arthritis or juat anyone seeking to calm down or lower stress. Perhaps there are questions over whether such  should be called "Tai Chi", but to me, this is a labelling issue only.



Absolutely not disgusted by anyone doing Tai Chi for health reasons!  As my own teacher says...martial arts aren't about fighting, they are about health.  No matter what we train in...we train because we care about someone's health...either our own or someone else's.   If someone chooses something other than a combat application of a martial art to take care of their health, I'm all for it.  Every martial artist has the right to choose their own path for their own reasons.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 6, 2007)

grydth said:


> As a self-described "gray beard", I believe you are trying to promote tolerance and diversity. If only more elders in our society would take on that role, instead of acting like and pretending to be 20 year olds ....
> 
> However, I do also note in your book that you do go into detail to show Tai Chi is *not* in any way, "New Age" (see page 17). You do this without slamming anyone else, but the point made is a most firm one.


Arghhh - what is the saying? - "hoisted on my own petard"? :uhyeah:

Well, in the real world I actively promote chaotic evil and random acts of violence - it's only online that I try to be a good boy.



> I have to save details of my severe dissatisfaction with Tai Chi Chih for another time. By Forum rules, if I air that in detail here, the thread must be moved by a moderator to another section devoted to that type of discussion. I would rather this thread stay under "Chinese Arts" than be sent to "Horror Stories". I recall there are already threads on this system here, which a site search should reveal.


Heh - I used to watch that on TV many moons ago. 

And sorry for straying  - I'm still learning the lay of the land here, so thanks for the explanation and the reminder! I DO imagine a topic like this might be...um...interesting...


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## SifuPhil (Mar 6, 2007)

Xue Sheng - xie xie! That was a fantastic explanation, and one that I totally understand and agree with.

I'll have to take a stroll over to the section here for teaching and school operation - I'd bet that that would be a good topic for that area. Perhaps those sifus had to bow to economic necessity - Neptune knows I've come close to that in the past, but I think I'd rather learn to say "_You want fries with that?_" than compromise. 

Especially in taijiquan, the small number of interested potential students is daunting compared to styles such as TKD or MMA. The temptation to dilute your style is awful but I can pretty much promise that if you see the results, if you have any love at all of what taijiquan is really all about you'll do a 180 and go right back to teaching the way it should be, gross income be damned.

It's just that the New Agers have such DEEEEEP pockets...:boing1:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 6, 2007)

For people who didn't know, I'm a Chiropractor. We have a hard enough time maintaining a positive public image, because the American Medical Association hates us, AND because there are so many ridiculous people who are law-breaking flakes that are Chiro's, we seem to hurt ourselves as much as our detractors do.

As an upper cervical Chiro, I address some health concerns by manipulating the top two bones in the neck, C1 and C2. I cannot tell you why it has helped, because I honestly do not know. BUT, I have had patients make amazing turn-arounds in their health by "putting their heads on straight"...aligning the posterior structures of C1 and 2 to the anatomical midline via several manipulations, from the x-ray viewed-jacked up-sideways places they started from.

I was sent an e-mail recently about a new method for re-aligning C1, along with an explanatory reason for needing to do it. By a New Age client. It made me cringe. 

It seems that ancient Sumerian tablets describe, in detail that no one else has been able to decipher except the proponents of this view, the process from which we (homo sapiens) came to being. Aliens from another planet needed a slave race to mine gold for them, and manipulated the DNA of homo erectus to make a new version of man, better suited to the task of mining. They did so by adding in some of their own super DNA. Problem for the keepers: Thier DNA would have spiritually and psychically empowered us beyond our imaginations to a next level of evolution...one that rivals our makers.

Solution? Place a curse in the DNA that causes C1 to slip out of place, and decrease the energy that flows from the cosmos, through our brains, and into our bodies. How to become this next-level evolutionary being? Get C1 corrected. They acknowledged that other disciplines do this, such as Chiro and Rolfers and others, but of course nobody does it better than the new thing you gotta pay them for.

So...now I get phone calls from New Age afficianado's asking if I correct C1. Yes, I do. The next question: Can I activate the Alien DNA? Sorry; can't help ya there.

Sadder still...as Chiro's struggle, many predictably adopt the flavor of the week to keep active in business. It won't be long until some are getting their licenses reviewed for doing exactly this: Selling their services as a way to awaken the super-being within, intentionally inhibited by the aliens who made us so many years ago.

Well, at least their history explains why so many have such a hard time keeping their fingers out fo their noses.

The glazed over, easy way out stares of addled minds influencing my market and profitability may not relate directly to Tai Chi, but I have my own reasosn why I'm actively disturbed by their fast food spirituality.

D.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 6, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> However when they come into a class and start training and then bring all their friends, this does not upset me so much but it is what happens next. Taiji to them is a moving "peaceful" meditation for health and fighting has absolutely nothing to do with that so they will not do push hands or applications. And to be honest this does not bother me that much either, to each his own. However that is ALWAYS just the tip of the iceberg. They then start pressuring the sifu to stop doing martial arts and they get upset if the sifu corrects them and they end up doing the Taiji health interpretive dance and because they are paying the money to take the class they want it to be EXACTLY what they believe it is. They do not want to actually learn it or understand it they want it to fit their own little picture of what they believe it is or SHOULD be.


 
I am actually surprised that I don't see these people in our class here in San Francisco.  Of all places, I would think this would be the place.  But it hasn't really come up.

I sometimes help teach the tai chi sword to the beginners.  It would be interesting to see how the New Agers might react to how I teach.  Most of our students are probably mid 40s and older, and mostly just interested in exercise.  But I still show them what the movement is used for.  

This move is a snap backwards into your enemy's knee or groin, or inner thigh to cut the femoral artery and he bleeds to death.  This movement is if he evades your thrust, you immediately cut his throat.  This movement deflects an attack, and you "ride" his weapon and return with a thrust to his torso or throat.  Etc.

Our students don't seem to mind it, and I think it gives them a way to put the movement into perspective and better understand what they are doing.  Now it's a bit difficult to practice "contact application" with the sword, sort of inherently hazardous, so that doesn't happen.  But having the movement explained graphically like that seems to make sense, and I think the students even get a bit of a chuckle out of it, having the movement explicitly explained.

So I think that regardless of the purpose of one's training (purely for exercise and health, for example), it is just silly to take a position that tai chi chuan and martial arts are two completely separate things.  Those people are fooling themselves.

I think the problems with the NA mentality has been pointed out earlier, in that they pick and choose elements of mysticism, philosophy, and spirituality, take them out of context, actually ignore the context and deeper ramifications, mix it all up into a grab bag, and end up with something superficial, warm-and-fuzzy, and silly.  I guess it's just frustrating to see something we love, Tai Chi Chuan, fall prey to this.  I am sure they don't mean any harm by it, but they are on a screwey path and it can be embarrassing to even witness.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 6, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> I am actually surprised that I don't see these people in our class here in San Francisco. Of all places, I would think this would be the place. But it hasn't really come up.


 
Just out of curiosity what style of Taiji? 

You also likely have a WHOLE lot more to choose from in your area as far a Taiji goes. So these types may avoid schools that teach the real deal and go to a school they can find that teaches Taiji interpretive dance

Also I have found a lot depends on the teacher and his or her attitude towards this. I know a CMC teacher that will tell people that it is a martial art and if they do not like it they leave, he will not change. And my Sifu tried to change to accommodate them but now he is telling them they are welcome to stay for the rest of the class but it is now time for push hands. And they generally leave and some have stopped coming. My first Sifu saw DOLLAR SIGNS and rode the wave all the way to the bank. But he now has only students that do the Taiji dance. The only thing he appears to do that is more positive is he will still help a young kid get to a Wushu academy in China if that is what they want. And he will encourage them to go if he sees talent. But he no longer really teaches anything with substance.


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## CoryKS (Mar 6, 2007)

In their defense, I just want to point out that NA'ers make nice music.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 6, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> For people who didn't know, I'm a Chiropractor. We have a hard enough time maintaining a positive public image, because the American Medical Association hates us, AND because there are so many ridiculous people who are law-breaking flakes that are Chiro's, we seem to hurt ourselves as much as our detractors do.
> 
> As an upper cervical Chiro, I address some health concerns by manipulating the top two bones in the neck, C1 and C2. I cannot tell you why it has helped, because I honestly do not know. BUT, I have had patients make amazing turn-arounds in their health by "putting their heads on straight"...aligning the posterior structures of C1 and 2 to the anatomical midline via several manipulations, from the x-ray viewed-jacked up-sideways places they started from.
> 
> ...


 
I feel your pain

Someone recently produced one of these alleged energized hunks of crystal and showed it to me as told me how you could just feel the energy coursing through it (the energy was of course of alien origin) and he then handed it to my sifu and told him about it and how much it cost. . 

My sifu's response

Feels like a cold stone. here you can have it back


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## Flying Crane (Mar 6, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just out of curiosity what style of Taiji?


 
My sifu is the most accomplished in Chen/Huan-Yin, but he teaches some Sun and Yang in the larger, "exercise" focused classes.  The sword that I help teach is from Yang, altho he has also taught me sword and broadsword from Chen.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 6, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> I feel your pain
> 
> Someone recently produced one of these alleged energized hunks of crystal and showed it to me as told me how you could just feel the energy coursing through it...


 
I also see a lot of people who might be riding the cusp of the NA bit, but they are also willing to accept the martial side of the art.  These are the people who are convinced they can just FEEL the chi flowing thru their bodies after about the second class.  They are also thoroughly convinced that they practice an almost magical art, that will instantly work with deadly effect.  

I just smile and nod...

There is really a wide range of people who gravitate to Tai Chi, who have some weird preconceptions.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 6, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> My sifu is the most accomplished in Chen/Huan-Yin, but he teaches some Sun and Yang in the larger, "exercise" focused classes. The sword that I help teach is from Yang, altho he has also taught me sword and broadsword from Chen.


 
Thanks

It has been my experience that this is much more prevalent in Yang style than Chen or Sun. 

My first sifu taught me Chen and he taught Sun but his Yang style classes just grew and grew and grew. He teaches mostly Yang style now and very little if any Chen and as far as I can tell no Sun. 

And the Chen form he taught me he will not teach anymore, the training is to hard and there is no money in it. The amazing part is he teaches the Yang long form now, and as far as I know he did not know it back when I trained with him.


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## thrax (Mar 6, 2007)

Great ....and now my lurking has to end already. I practice a couple of tai chi "diciplines" and have stumbled across a few people that are really upset if I speak of the applications involved. I also study iaido and have a great deal of fun with these same folks explaining that the sword is only a point of focus for the mind while moving through the contemplative katas. They buy it and I get a good laugh....everybody is happy.


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## Steel Tiger (Mar 6, 2007)

SifuPhil said:


> Perhaps I've been in isolation a little too long and away from what's really going on in the world, but could you, Grydth, or anyone for that matter, please explain how the NA'ers are using taiji to promote a philosophy? What philosophy? How do they use taiji to promote it? Where is this happening, and could you also please point me to a source that I could see with my own two eyes?
> 
> 
> Clarify, please - "artificial monstrosity"...


 
Take your pick!  It could be the inner alien consciousness awakening, or aura cleansing, or chakra realignment, or any other of two dozen made up "philosophies".  The real problem is that what they con people into believing has no foundation behind it.  They willingly co-opt anything that seems "cool and mystical" to support their own very small view of the world.  More often than not there is a financial motive behind it all.

While one can happily live ones life ignoring the New Age movement, the annoying thing is that their world view, philosophy if you like, is not only becoming accepted it is becoming the norm.  A serious student of the martial arts usually gleens some small knowledge of the philosophy associated with the art studied, but what happens if the philosophy and concepts behind your art have been so subverted by a set of fluffy, its all good, there's nothing bad attitudes, that the art's meaning is lost forever.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 6, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thanks
> 
> It has been my experience that this is much more prevalent in Yang style than Chen or Sun.
> 
> ...


 
I am in a rather fortunate and somewhat unique position with him in that I show up to the Tai Chi class, but I seldom participate with the group.  I go off on the side and practice on my own, and he gives me personal instruction in whatever I am interested in learning.  This is how I have learned much of the Chen that I know, as well as the weaponry and the external arts like White Crane.  These are things he doesn't usually teach in a formal class setting to the big groups.  But he gives it to me, and I am fortunate for that.  There are a small few of us who have been able to do this.  Most of the students are content to show up for class and just follow along with the mainstream.


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## TaiChiTJ (Mar 6, 2007)

I think anyone who intends to teach non-martial tai chi should call it that: they should name it tai chi, without the "chuan". That seems to be what this stuff called "Dahn" yoga and tai chi is doing, and in their brochures they talk about stretching and breathing and meditation and wholistic healing and such. 

Anyone who intends to teach it as a full health-meditation-self protection art that includes combat oriented curriculum should say tai chi chuan, and make sure their brochure says that and they say that when a prospective student inquires about what they do.


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## Steel Tiger (Mar 6, 2007)

TaiChiTJ said:


> I think anyone who intends to teach non-martial tai chi should call it that: they should name it tai chi, without the "chuan". That seems to be what this stuff called "Dahn" yoga and tai chi is doing, and in their brochures they talk about stretching and breathing and meditation and wholistic healing and such.
> 
> Anyone who intends to teach it as a full health-meditation-self protection art that includes combat oriented curriculum should say tai chi chuan, and make sure their brochure says that and they say that when a prospective student inquires about what they do.


 
This is a good point you make, but remember that all too many people don't realise that taiji is a martial art.  In fact, some folk get well and truly annoyed if you try to tell them that it is.  This is the sought of thing I mean when I say the new age world view is beginning to be accepted as the norm.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 6, 2007)

grydth said:


> For discussion sake only, suppose we could agree New Agers are superficial and misguided fools. Let's say they have nothing to offer or teach us.
> 
> So why do we get so *angry* at them? Why not ignore them as we do the lunatic on the street corner or a Tv show which doesn't interest us?


That trail of granola crumbs attracts squirls!


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## East Winds (Mar 7, 2007)

The of course you have the "in betweenies" like the Taoist Tai Chi Society who expressly forbid any talk or practice of the martial side but still call it Tai Chi Chuan.

Very best wishes


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## SifuPhil (Mar 7, 2007)

I was just in Barnes and Noble's yesterday checking the stacks and it struck me that some of the taijiquan books are in the "Sports" section while other are in the "Health and Fitness" area. No rhyme or reason, either - there was a push-hands one in Health and a "feel-good" one in Sports.


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## grydth (Mar 7, 2007)

Well. maybe the thread has come full circle...

Borders for awhile had their Tai Chi magazines in the womens' health section. 

You can find books all over stores, as if the staff is unsure where to put them. Sometimes actually in the martial arts section, sometimes with yoga and pilates, sometimes general sports.......... 

But never fail to check one section before you leave - the New Age Section.:soapbox:


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## SifuPhil (Mar 7, 2007)

grydth said:


> ...But never fail to check one section before you leave - the New Age Section.:soapbox:


Well, I DID try that section, but every time I tried to pull out a book my fingers came away covered in some soft, pink fluffy stuff...

I don't know what it was but it DID make me feel better.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 7, 2007)

grydth said:


> Tai Chi magazines


 
Tai Chi magazine is actually part of the problem. 



SifuPhil said:


> Well, I DID try that section, but every time I tried to pull out a book my fingers came away covered in some soft, pink fluffy stuff...
> 
> I don't know what it was but it DID make me feel better.


 
Ahhh so that is what that was.... I was sitting on the floor meditating with crystals on my head to try and pull out a book from that section and that pink fluffy stuff kept coming and coming..... But I have to admit I felt better too.... or at least up until they asked me to leave and never come back


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## SifuPhil (Mar 7, 2007)

LOL - you're bad!!!


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## dmax999 (Mar 7, 2007)

East Winds said:


> The of course you have the "in betweenies" like the Taoist Tai Chi Society who expressly forbid any talk or practice of the martial side but still call it Tai Chi Chuan.


 
I actually started Tai Chi with them. They gave me the opinion I have on them now. The elderly that go there to get some exercise and be healthier, its the perfect place for them. I lost it when I was told "Everyone else does Tai Chi wrong, only we know how to put the Chi into Tai Chi" Exact quote. I was told their version could cure bad backs, correct poor vision, even put cancer into remission, but Tai Chi anywhere else wouldn't be able to do the same.

The, as people are calling them NA'er, lie about benefits of Tai Chi and make everyone else who does it look stupid. How do you defend Tai Chi when people are coming up to you and asking if you believe it cures cancer? They feel the "Need to be Special" and really how special are you doing a martial art done by 1 million Chinese? But if your version prevents cancer and no one elses does, Ah now we are special.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2007)

dmax999 said:


> The, as people are calling them NA'er, lie about benefits of Tai Chi and make everyone else who does it look stupid.


 
I think what you meant to say was "TRY TO make everyone else who does it look stupid."  For anyone who knows better, even just a little bit, they are the ones who look stupid.


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## Steel Tiger (Mar 7, 2007)

dmax999 said:


> I lost it when I was told "Everyone else does Tai Chi wrong, only we know how to put the Chi into Tai Chi" Exact quote. quote]
> 
> And here we have yet another reason to run these people out of town on a rail.  The 'chi' in tai chi does not refer to qi, as in breathe or energy, but to final or ultimate, and of course should be pronounce 'gee'.  It doesn't take that much research to discover this fact.
> 
> Oh by the way, there is another thread about the Mayan calender and the end of the world.  That demonstrates another reason to be very wary of the new age perspective, and why they make blood so frequently boil.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 7, 2007)

This is off-topic, for which I apologise, but this thread seems to have attracted a number of experienced and knowledgeable tai-chi practitioners.

As the result of a bad motorcycle accident a long time ago, I have a right forearm that is 100% reconstructed i.e. no real bone between wrist and elbow, most of the muscle cut away.

That accident meant I could no longer practice the kung fu (lau gar) I'd done for the previous twelve years as my right arm cannot take much in the way of either shock or twisting.  It has lead me into the Japanese sword arts, for which I am grateful (altho' tamashagiri does tend to make my arm swell alarmingly ) but I would also love to get back into an empty-hand art.  My doctors tell me "No way!" but I wonder if you chaps could advise me as to whether tai-chi is 'performable' properly with a handicap like I describe?

As I say, many apologies for the OT'ness but having a tai-chi member focus-puller thread prompted my question :blush:.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> This is off-topic, for which I apologise, but this thread seems to have attracted a number of experienced and knowledgeable tai-chi practitioners.
> 
> As the result of a bad motorcycle accident a long time ago, I have a right forearm that is 100% reconstructed i.e. no real bone between wrist and elbow, most of the muscle cut away.
> 
> ...


 

Give it a try, see how it goes.  Start slow, probably Yang or Sun style would be best as Chen has more complex movement that might not be good for your arm.

I obviously cannot say for sure, but I think it would be worth exploring.  Let us know how it works out...


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## Sukerkin (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanks *Crane* :tup:.

I'll look into what you suggest. You may fathom the depths of my ignorance on this from the fact that I didn't even know that Ta-chi had strata of 'schools' within it :O (tho' given the multitude of kung fu styles I really shouldn't be surprised ).


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## mfinn (Mar 7, 2007)

There is an axiom called Gresham's Law that says "Bad money drives out good."  In the old days, when money was coinage and consisted of alloys with high percentages of gold or silver, unscrupulous people would find ways to reproduce the coins with less of the gold or silver present.  As society became aware of this, people tended to withdraw from circulation the "good" coins they had because they did not want to give someone good money and less valuable money inreturn.  Pretty soon, the only coins circulating were debased.  And people lost their faith in money.

This is what happens when people claim to be representing any great art or practice when they are not.  They are vandals.  They are debasing something worthy.  Pretty soon the only Taji Quan will be what the people in the adult diaper commercials are doing.  This is why what these people do is not a victimless crime.  Unchecked, there will be no one left in fifty years who has any idea what it really is.  The bad will drive out the good.


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## Steel Tiger (Mar 7, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> This is off-topic, for which I apologise, but this thread seems to have attracted a number of experienced and knowledgeable tai-chi practitioners.
> 
> As the result of a bad motorcycle accident a long time ago, I have a right forearm that is 100% reconstructed i.e. no real bone between wrist and elbow, most of the muscle cut away.
> 
> ...


 
Why not give it a go.  It can't have any worse an effect than the tamashagiri you have been doing.  And if it does you can always stop.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 7, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> This is off-topic, for which I apologise, but this thread seems to have attracted a number of experienced and knowledgeable tai-chi practitioners.
> 
> As the result of a bad motorcycle accident a long time ago, I have a right forearm that is 100% reconstructed i.e. no real bone between wrist and elbow, most of the muscle cut away.
> 
> ...


 
Go for it, give Yang style a try or Cheng Manching style. 

I agree with Crane that Chen might not be a good idea since it tends to be a bit more strenuous. 

By the way, all Traditional Taiji styles will also get into weapons forms later in your training.


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