# Just Got Permission to Teach



## wingchun100

Hey everyone,
I put this on the wrong board earlier. Oops!
Recently I was given permission by my Sifu to teach Wing Chun. So far I have made only one attempt at advertising for it, which was on good old Craigslist. I got one email, and the person who contacted me did not answer his phone when I called back. I left a voicemail but got no call back.
My question is: can you recommend some places that might be BETTER to advertise? I know I am not going to get swamrs and swarms of people; I am not going to be a millionaire, and I also know that most people who respond may not stick around for very long. However, I would like to at least get more than one reply!
Thanks for any help/tips.


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## JowGaWolf

wingchun100 said:


> Hey everyone,
> I put this on the wrong board earlier. Oops!
> Recently I was given permission by my Sifu to teach Wing Chun. So far I have made only one attempt at advertising for it, which was on good old Craigslist. I got one email, and the person who contacted me did not answer his phone when I called back. I left a voicemail but got no call back.
> My question is: can you recommend some places that might be BETTER to advertise? I know I am not going to get swamrs and swarms of people; I am not going to be a millionaire, and I also know that most people who respond may not stick around for very long. However, I would like to at least get more than one reply!
> Thanks for any help/tips.


City and county recreation centers.  Make sure you have all of the descriptions and info for your school.  And have a detailed program that you can teach in their centers. I do small self defense classes that last about 4 - 8 weeks.  This way I can start a new class every few months. Use this exposure to build a relationship with both potential students and the recreation department.  Don't do this until you are ready. The recreation department will do background checks so if you have a criminal history then this won't be an option.

Recreation departments will advertise for you and usually they will have connections with the schools within the county.  Free advertising.  TKD and Karate schools may already be ahead of you so it may take a while to see returns.  But when it happens it will be big.  Always be professional and reliable so that you aren't blacklisted within the recreation department.


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## Tames D

Congratulations. You can post flyers or business cards in local businesses that will allow you. If you are willing to pay a fee, local newspapers or martial arts publications.
If you really have balls, post your ad in local Wing Chun schools


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## wingchun100

JowGaWolf said:


> City and county recreation centers.  Make sure you have all of the descriptions and info for your school.  And have a detailed program that you can teach in their centers. I do small self defense classes that last about 4 - 8 weeks.  This way I can start a new class every few months. Use this exposure to build a relationship with both potential students and the recreation department.  Don't do this until you are ready. The recreation department will do background checks so if you have a criminal history then this won't be an option.
> 
> Recreation departments will advertise for you and usually they will have connections with the schools within the county.  Free advertising.  TKD and Karate schools may already be ahead of you so it may take a while to see returns.  But when it happens it will be big.  Always be professional and reliable so that you aren't blacklisted within the recreation department.


 

I am lucky in that I believe I am the only martial arts game in town. Stillwater is unbelievably small. There might be some schools in nearby Mechanicville, but not where I live. Then again, that could work against me too: there are probably no schools there because there is no interest.

Thanks for the advice though.


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## wingchun100

Tames D said:


> Congratulations. You can post flyers or business cards in local businesses that will allow you. If you are willing to pay a fee, local newspapers or martial arts publications.
> If you really have balls, post your ad in local Wing Chun schools


 
Haha, I don't really have the courage for the latter. However, there is a chain of convenience stores that still have old school bulletin boards. I could create a quickie flyer at home and post it whenever I stop at one.


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## wingchun100

If I posted the ad here, could you folks give me tips on what might or might not be working in it?


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## JowGaWolf

wingchun100 said:


> I am lucky in that I believe I am the only martial arts game in town. Stillwater is unbelievably small. There might be some schools in nearby Mechanicville, but not where I live. Then again, that could work against me too: there are probably no schools there because there is no interest.
> 
> Thanks for the advice though.


Are there other martial places in your town.  if so how far away are they.   location is everything.  if there is nothing but mechanic shops near you then maybe some of the people who work there are interesred. Maybe those same people have kids.

My general rule is, if I don't see a franchised martial arts or Mma school or just gym.  Then it's probably not a good location for a martial art school


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## JR 137

How far is Stillwater from Clifton Park?  I'd imagine people who are interested in MA go to Clifton Park.  There's several MA schools on Rt. 9, mostly TKD.  

I live in Troy.  I haven't been to Stillwater since I very briefly dated a girl from there when I was in high school.  That was around '93.

If you're starting up, you may want to teach at a place like the YMCA.  Get a strong student base, then transition to your own place.  Or rent space at a different style MA school - teach Wing Chun at say a BJJ school at times they're not teaching.

I don't venture too far north of Latham very often.  Is there a Wing Chun presence in the capital district?  Only Kung fu schools I can think of off the top of my head are Cichon's in Albany, which has been around for quite some time and a newer place in Latham in the ABC Sports & Fitness plaza.


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## Buka

Congrats, bro! 

Tough in a small population at times, so be patient. Wishing you all the best, my brother.


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## wingchun100

JR 137 said:


> How far is Stillwater from Clifton Park?  I'd imagine people who are interested in MA go to Clifton Park.  There's several MA schools on Rt. 9, mostly TKD.
> 
> I live in Troy.  I haven't been to Stillwater since I very briefly dated a girl from there when I was in high school.  That was around '93.
> 
> If you're starting up, you may want to teach at a place like the YMCA.  Get a strong student base, then transition to your own place.  Or rent space at a different style MA school - teach Wing Chun at say a BJJ school at times they're not teaching.
> 
> I don't venture too far north of Latham very often.  Is there a Wing Chun presence in the capital district?  Only Kung fu schools I can think of off the top of my head are Cichon's in Albany, which has been around for quite some time and a newer place in Latham in the ABC Sports & Fitness plaza.


 

Hey, you should send me a private message! You don't live too far. Maybe we could have some practice time together.

Clifton Park is about 20-30 minutes from me. There is Cichon's in Albany, where I learned for a long time, but now I transferred to a gentleman who lives in Broadalbin. (I don't make that hike anymore; he teaches on Skidmore College's campus too, so I go there instead.) As for that Latham class, I have not heard of that. There is also someone else who teaches in Glens Falls.


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## WaterGal

If it's a very small town and you're teaching part time out of your garage or church hall or whatever (rather than renting a commercial space), putting up flyers sounds like a good place to start.  

You can also set up a Facebook page for your school, which is free.  You can put up a little about your classes, maybe put up a cover photo of you in a uniform throwing a punch or something.  Try to post at least every few weeks to make your school look busy and active.


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## wingchun100

WaterGal said:


> If it's a very small town and you're teaching part time out of your garage or church hall or whatever (rather than renting a commercial space), putting up flyers sounds like a good place to start.
> 
> You can also set up a Facebook page for your school, which is free.  You can put up a little about your classes, maybe put up a cover photo of you in a uniform throwing a punch or something.  Try to post at least every few weeks to make your school look busy and active.


 

Thanks for the tips!


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## Andrew Green

wingchun100 said:


> Hey everyone,
> I put this on the wrong board earlier. Oops!
> Recently I was given permission by my Sifu to teach Wing Chun. So far I have made only one attempt at advertising for it, which was on good old Craigslist. I got one email, and the person who contacted me did not answer his phone when I called back. I left a voicemail but got no call back.
> My question is: can you recommend some places that might be BETTER to advertise? I know I am not going to get swamrs and swarms of people; I am not going to be a millionaire, and I also know that most people who respond may not stick around for very long. However, I would like to at least get more than one reply!
> Thanks for any help/tips.




Are you looking at only free advertising?  Or are you willing to pay (where you will get far better results).  Do you have a facility?  Are you looking for kids and / or adults?

There is also no reason not to try and get swarms and swarms of people.  But it does take a little time to get the ball rolling.  The very first thing you should do is set up a web page, or at least a landing page, a Facebook page, instagram account, etc.  Start putting yourself out there and getting in front of your prospects.


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## Andrew Green

wingchun100 said:


> If I posted the ad here, could you folks give me tips on what might or might not be working in it?



sure.


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## wingchun100

Andrew Green said:


> Are you looking at only free advertising?  Or are you willing to pay (where you will get far better results).  Do you have a facility?  Are you looking for kids and / or adults?
> 
> There is also no reason not to try and get swarms and swarms of people.  But it does take a little time to get the ball rolling.  The very first thing you should do is set up a web page, or at least a landing page, a Facebook page, instagram account, etc.  Start putting yourself out there and getting in front of your prospects.


 
I'm not saying I am NOT looking to get swarms, but I am being realistic. That will not happen at first.

I have no facility at the moment. Most community/rec centers want me to have liability insurance. A waiver is not enough. I looked into the insurance, and it was about $800 per year...more than I have at the moment. As for paying for advertising, I was going to use free advertising at first and then invest some of that revenue into an advertising fund.


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## Andrew Green

wingchun100 said:


> I'm not saying I am NOT looking to get swarms, but I am being realistic. That will not happen at first.
> 
> I have no facility at the moment. Most community/rec centers want me to have liability insurance. A waiver is not enough. I looked into the insurance, and it was about $800 per year...more than I have at the moment. As for paying for advertising, I was going to use free advertising at first and then invest some of that revenue into an advertising fund.




I suspect you are going to have a hard time getting your first class going, at this stage you might be better off trying to partner somewhere.  I'm not sure what options you have in your area, but here what I would do if I was starting from nothing would be to try and teach a program run out of a community centre.  The city runs the centre, does the advertising, collects the fees and pays me.  Build up a bit of a class using their resources and then move to your own setup once you have a class.

Another option would be to start by specializing in private training, approach the situation more as a personal trainer, or small group fitness trainer rather then a school owner.  

And finally get in with other places.  Offer to teach a 4-8 week introduction to Wing Chun class.  Or run a bunch of self-defence seminars through other groups.  

But start building lists and an audience.  Get email addresses, get people on your Facebook page, get people following you on instagram, youtube, snapchat... anywhere people are already going or looking.  

Managing expectations is important, if you put yourself out and attract people thinking they are coming into a class of 20 other people and they are the only one there it's going to damage their perception.  If they are expecting private or semi-private it won't.  So I would suggest either setting yourself up to get a group together and start together or focusing on private / semi-private until you can.  Both are options, it just depends on how you approach them.

The hard part might be not giving up, getting started is a little like a snowball, it is hard to get the first bit, but once it reaches critical mass you can grow a lot easier as you have the setup and funds to do it.


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## wingchun100

Andrew Green said:


> I suspect you are going to have a hard time getting your first class going, at this stage you might be better off trying to partner somewhere.  I'm not sure what options you have in your area, but here what I would do if I was starting from nothing would be to try and teach a program run out of a community centre.  The city runs the centre, does the advertising, collects the fees and pays me.  Build up a bit of a class using their resources and then move to your own setup once you have a class.
> 
> Another option would be to start by specializing in private training, approach the situation more as a personal trainer, or small group fitness trainer rather then a school owner.
> 
> And finally get in with other places.  Offer to teach a 4-8 week introduction to Wing Chun class.  Or run a bunch of self-defence seminars through other groups.
> 
> But start building lists and an audience.  Get email addresses, get people on your Facebook page, get people following you on instagram, youtube, snapchat... anywhere people are already going or looking.
> 
> Managing expectations is important, if you put yourself out and attract people thinking they are coming into a class of 20 other people and they are the only one there it's going to damage their perception.  If they are expecting private or semi-private it won't.  So I would suggest either setting yourself up to get a group together and start together or focusing on private / semi-private until you can.  Both are options, it just depends on how you approach them.
> 
> The hard part might be not giving up, getting started is a little like a snowball, it is hard to get the first bit, but once it reaches critical mass you can grow a lot easier as you have the setup and funds to do it.


 
I have been trying the one-on-one personal trainer-type route. So far, literally one email back. When I called the person who wrote to me, there was no answer, and no call back. Still, I ran only one ad. I am not going to give up that easily.


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## wingchun100

Andrew Green said:


> I suspect you are going to have a hard time getting your first class going, at this stage you might be better off trying to partner somewhere.  I'm not sure what options you have in your area, but here what I would do if I was starting from nothing would be to try and teach a program run out of a community centre.  The city runs the centre, does the advertising, collects the fees and pays me.  Build up a bit of a class using their resources and then move to your own setup once you have a class.
> 
> Another option would be to start by specializing in private training, approach the situation more as a personal trainer, or small group fitness trainer rather then a school owner.
> 
> And finally get in with other places.  Offer to teach a 4-8 week introduction to Wing Chun class.  Or run a bunch of self-defence seminars through other groups.
> 
> But start building lists and an audience.  Get email addresses, get people on your Facebook page, get people following you on instagram, youtube, snapchat... anywhere people are already going or looking.
> 
> Managing expectations is important, if you put yourself out and attract people thinking they are coming into a class of 20 other people and they are the only one there it's going to damage their perception.  If they are expecting private or semi-private it won't.  So I would suggest either setting yourself up to get a group together and start together or focusing on private / semi-private until you can.  Both are options, it just depends on how you approach them.
> 
> The hard part might be not giving up, getting started is a little like a snowball, it is hard to get the first bit, but once it reaches critical mass you can grow a lot easier as you have the setup and funds to do it.


 
When you say "get in with other places," where do you mean? Other martial arts schools? How would I pull that off without them thinking I am trying to steal students from them?


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## Andrew Green

wingchun100 said:


> When you say "get in with other places," where do you mean? Other martial arts schools? How would I pull that off without them thinking I am trying to steal students from them?



Depends on the state of the school, a new school with timeslots to fill might welcome someone paying part of the rent for part of the time.

But more likely other sorts of places.  Daycares, schools, offices, anywhere that might welcome someone coming in and teaching self-defence / bully prevention / fitness / etc.


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## WaterGal

Andrew Green said:


> Depends on the state of the school, a new school with timeslots to fill might welcome someone paying part of the rent for part of the time.
> 
> But more likely other sorts of places.  Daycares, schools, offices, anywhere that might welcome someone coming in and teaching self-defence / bully prevention / fitness / etc.



I think those other sorts of places are more likely to expect him to provide his own liability insurance, though.

Where I live (in the exurbs), there are a number of martial arts schools that have a dedicated facility that do this. Sometimes it's because the school owner only knows, say, Taekwondo, but they want to offer grappling or Krav Maga or whatever, so they contract with someone else who can teach that.  Other times, I think it's because the school is only a part-time gig for the owner, so they're renting a facility that sits empty half the week.


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## wingchun100

WaterGal said:


> I think those other sorts of places are more likely to expect him to provide his own liability insurance, though.
> 
> Where I live (in the exurbs), there are a number of martial arts schools that have a dedicated facility that do this. Sometimes it's because the school owner only knows, say, Taekwondo, but they want to offer grappling or Krav Maga or whatever, so they contract with someone else who can teach that.  Other times, I think it's because the school is only a part-time gig for the owner, so they're renting a facility that sits empty half the week.



That might be possible with some of the independent schools around here. Your average McDojo, Black Belt Factory type of school would not appreciate it. In my area, that would be a place like Pai's Tae Kwon Do. However, there is a place called Troy Tae Kwon Do that has just one training studio; a place like that would be more likely to have interest in that.


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## Andrew Green

wingchun100 said:


> That might be possible with some of the independent schools around here. Your average McDojo, Black Belt Factory type of school would not appreciate it. In my area, that would be a place like Pai's Tae Kwon Do. However, there is a place called Troy Tae Kwon Do that has just one training studio; a place like that would be more likely to have interest in that.



Don't mistake success for lack of quality...  Even what you are saying sounds off.  You are saying the schools that got their stuff together well enough to know not to let a unknown person without insurance teach in their facility are the McDojo / Belt Factories.   That's just knowing how to properly operate a business.


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## wingchun100

Andrew Green said:


> Don't mistake success for lack of quality...  Even what you are saying sounds off.  You are saying the schools that got their stuff together well enough to know not to let a unknown person without insurance teach in their facility are the McDojo / Belt Factories.   That's just knowing how to properly operate a business.




Not what I said at all. Having dealt with those schools and knowing how they operate is what makes me say they are McDojos/Black Belt Factories.


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## wingchun100

And I did not say "schools," as in plural. I mentioned one place that IS a belt factory, while the second one is not. I have not personally gone to Troy TKD myself. However, my friend's son does go there, and he says they are nothing like the other TKD place. (My friend was a student at Pai's when he was younger. Then he quit and went to the same place where I trained in Wing Chun, so he is well aware how Pai's operates.)


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## extrion

As an ex-girlfriend who was once a student there said "Pai me more" was a common nickname for the school. Good to see there are several people from the local area. I'm personally in Clifton Park. 



wingchun100 said:


> And I did not say "schools," as in plural. I mentioned one place that IS a belt factory, while the second one is not. I have not personally gone to Troy TKD myself. However, my friend's son does go there, and he says they are nothing like the other TKD place. (My friend was a student at Pai's when he was younger. Then he quit and went to the same place where I trained in Wing Chun, so he is well aware how Pai's operates.)


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## wingchun100

extrion said:


> As an ex-girlfriend who was once a student there said "Pai me more" was a common nickname for the school. Good to see there are several people from the local area. I'm personally in Clifton Park.


 

Someone else on this thread is also from CP. We should start our own club somewhere. What style do you study?


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## extrion

wingchun100 said:


> Someone else on this thread is also from CP. We should start our own club somewhere. What style do you study?


 I study karate at US Budokai in CP.  I also study Muso Jikiden Eishen Ryu Iaijutsu.

edit: grammar


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## WaterGal

wingchun100 said:


> Most community/rec centers want me to have liability insurance. A waiver is not enough. I looked into the insurance, and it was about $800 per year...more than I have at the moment. As for paying for advertising, I was going to use free advertising at first and then invest some of that revenue into an advertising fund.



Oh, just FYI, I was re-upping our insurance yesterday and noticed that K & K Insurance has an insurance option for a martial arts teacher who's an independent contractor that's ~$350/year.  Still an investment up front, but not as bad.


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## wingchun100

WaterGal said:


> Oh, just FYI, I was re-upping our insurance yesterday and noticed that K & K Insurance has an insurance option for a martial arts teacher who's an independent contractor that's ~$350/year.  Still an investment up front, but not as bad.



Thanks for the heads up on that. I will look into it!


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## Flying Crane

WaterGal said:


> Oh, just FYI, I was re-upping our insurance yesterday and noticed that K & K Insurance has an insurance option for a martial arts teacher who's an independent contractor that's ~$350/year.  Still an investment up front, but not as bad.


Running a business properly does take spending some money up front.  Liability insurance is a smart investment.  It's good self defense.

If you accept money for your time and talents, then you are running a business, even if you only have one student.


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## wingchun100

Flying Crane said:


> Running a business properly does take spending some money up front.  Liability insurance is a smart investment.  It's good self defense.
> 
> If you accept money for your time and talents, then you are running a business, even if you only have one student.


 

What sucks is I don't have the money for it because I have no students, but it would be a bad idea to have students BEFORE I have the insurance.

Another part of me worries about plunking down $350 or whatever for this insurance...and then no one comes.


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## wingchun100

I mean, I'm not expecting to quit my day job here, but I WOULD like to at least break even.


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## wingchun100

Now here is an interesting conundrum.

I was talking with another student of the same Sifu that gave me permission to teach, and I said I was going to start running my own class. This other student says, "He probably meant teaching friends, friends of friends, and by word of mouth. I don't think he meant you could CHARGE for it."

Here's the thing though: he  did not say I COULDN'T do that either. And not for nothing, but what is the difference? I mean,  I could see a problem if I had no idea what wing chun is and I went out on the street and said, "Hey, I'm a wing chun grandmaster! Pay me $1000 an hour!" (That $1000 an hour is a number off the top of my head that I thought of as a joke.)

I think the preceived issue is that the Sifu himself does not charge, but in my opinion...that's personal preference. He could easily charge, and he should! I mean, if nothing other than to break even because he DOES have to pay to rent out the place where he teaches class.


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## wingchun100

Also, there is another thread with the subject line, "Trying to get people to see the value of my free class." or something to that effect. The person who wrote this thread was struggling to get anyone to attend his free class. Why? Because the idea that people will jump at the chance to do something free is, more often than not, a myth. If you are giving it away for free, then their mindset is that there is no value to it. The same goes for charging "too low."

Anyway, what do you think of that?


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## Flying Crane

If you are a homeowner, your homeowners insurance policy should have a liability portion that covers you for injury that someone experiences while in your home, and even for activities that you engage in outside the home (accidents related to automobiles would be excluded, of course).  For example, I was told that if I went to the public archery range and one of my arrows went wild and hit someone, my homeowners policy would cover me for the liability.

So, if you teach and do so for free, you may be covered.  If you do not collect compensation of any kind, you are not running a business.  I do know that once you begin running a business, that changes everything about your homeowners policy and you no longer have coverage, so you need a separate business policy to cover all business activities, even if conducted in your home.  Be extra careful about this, insurance companies can be tricky and if you run a business from your home and do not have a business policy, that might actually nullify your homeowners policy so you have no coverage even for normal homeowners stuff.  They might not be so draconian as that, but I think it's possible so just be very careful about it.

So you might start small, do it for free to get some regular students and see if there is sufficient interest to warrant buying insurance coverage and start collecting fees and make it a small business.

Check with your insurance provider to make sure what I am describing is accurate, tho.  Just tell them you might have people over to do some martial arts training, you are not being paid, it is not a business, and would you be covered for liability if someone gets injured.


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## wingchun100

Flying Crane said:


> If you are a homeowner, your homeowners insurance policy should have a liability portion that covers you for injury that someone experiences while in your home, and even for activities that you engage in outside the home (accidents related to automobiles would be excluded, of course).  For example, I was told that if I went to the public archery range and one of my arrows went wild and hit someone, my homeowners policy would cover me for the liability.
> 
> So, if you teach and do so for free, you may be covered.  If you do not collect compensation of any kind, you are not running a business.  I do know that once you begin running a business, that changes everything about your homeowners policy and you no longer have coverage, so you need a separate business policy to cover all business activities, even if conducted in your home.  Be extra careful about this, insurance companies can be tricky and if you run a business from your home and do not have a business policy, that might actually nullify your homeowners policy so you have no coverage even for normal homeowners stuff.  They might not be so draconian as that, but I think it's possible so just be very careful about it.
> 
> So you might start small, do it for free to get some regular students and see if there is sufficient interest to warrant buying insurance coverage and start collecting fees and make it a small business.
> 
> Check with your insurance provider to make sure what I am describing is accurate, tho.  Just tell them you might have people over to do some martial arts training, you are not being paid, it is not a business, and would you be covered for liability if someone gets injured.


 

That would be something I would call and ask, but I am not going to teach out of my home. Per our lease we are not allowed to run any kind of business out of our apartments. (Oh yeah, that is an important part too: I am not a homeowner.)


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## Flying Crane

wingchun100 said:


> That would be something I would call and ask, but I am not going to teach out of my home. Per our lease we are not allowed to run any kind of business out of our apartments. (Oh yeah, that is an important part too: I am not a homeowner.)


Good point, and I'm not sure if renters insurance would offer the same kind of liability coverage.  At any rate, it was just an idea.


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## wingchun100

Flying Crane said:


> Good point, and I'm not sure if renters insurance would offer the same kind of liability coverage.  At any rate, it was just an idea.


 

I appreciate the help.


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## Flying Crane

Insurance issues aside, there is something to be said about keeping a very small group and doing it just for the enjoyment of it and not for pay.  If nothing else, you get to see if you actually enjoy it,mand see how many people are interested before you make the investment of turning it into a business.

I had one student for a few years until he moved to China.  We worked in my back yard and I never charged him for it, and he wouldn't have been able to pay anyways.  It was a very casual arrangement and I just enjoyed having him as a training partner, but also it gave me the chance to try some of my own ideas about drills and practice methods, so I wasn't just copying exactly how my sifu runs his classes. I think I had some good ideas, it was a great experience for me and I think I grew a whole lot from it.  That can be far more valuable than making some money from it.


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## wingchun100

Flying Crane said:


> Insurance issues aside, there is something to be said about keeping a very small group and doing it just for the enjoyment of it and not for pay.  If nothing else, you get to see if you actually enjoy it,mand see how many people are interested before you make the investment of turning it into a business.
> 
> I had one student for a few years until he moved to China.  We worked in my back yard and I never charged him for it, and he wouldn't have been able to pay anyways.  It was a very casual arrangement and I just enjoyed having him as a training partner, but also it gave me the chance to try some of my own ideas about drills and practice methods, so I wasn't just copying exactly how my sifu runs his classes. I think I had some good ideas, it was a great experience for me and I think I grew a whole lot from it.  That can be far more valuable than making some money from it.


 

At the same time, there is nothing wrong with wanting to make money from doing something you love. I mean, isn't that the very definition of a dream job?


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## Flying Crane

wingchun100 said:


> At the same time, there is nothing wrong with wanting to make money from doing something you love. I mean, isn't that the very definition of a dream job?


This is true. 

Something to think about, sometimes if you take something you love and try to turn it into your dream job, the frustrations of running a business can end up killing your love for what you are doing.  Some things are best kept as a hobby that you love, rather than a business that you hate.

I'm not trying to discourage you, and it wasn't my intention to even discuss that issue, but since you brought it up I thought I would offer the contrast.

I guess what I was really trying to say in my previous post was, don't be afraid to take it slow and figure out if you really like it, even if that means you don't earn any money for a while.  Either way it can be a great experience.


----------



## JR 137

extrion said:


> As an ex-girlfriend who was once a student there said "Pai me more" was a common nickname for the school. Good to see there are several people from the local area. I'm personally in Clifton Park.



Pai's isnt Tae Kwon Do, it's Take-My-Dough.  Master Yang's is even worse.  But the apple doesn't fall far from the tree... Master Yang was allegedly one of Pai's top guys before he went solo.

Those two have really done a disservice to TKD in the area.  My uncle, who was a TKD black belt in the 60s-70s in Beirut, Lebanon decided to get back into it about 15 years ago and went to Pai's.  During sparring, he was repeatedly asked "Why are you throwing punches?  They don't score points!"  He said "I'm not here to score points."  They didn't like him very much.  He signed up for the black belt plan.  After he passed his test, they wanted $200 for the belt.  The contract's fine print stated everything but the belt itself was included in the price.  He told them to keep the belt and never returned.


----------



## wingchun100

Flying Crane said:


> This is true.
> 
> Something to think about, sometimes if you take something you love and try to turn it into your dream job, the frustrations of running a business can end up killing your love for what you are doing.  Some things are best kept as a hobby that you love, rather than a business that you hate.
> 
> I'm not trying to discourage you, and it wasn't my intention to even discuss that issue, but since you brought it up I thought I would offer the contrast.
> 
> I guess what I was really trying to say in my previous post was, don't be afraid to take it slow and figure out if you really like it, even if that means you don't earn any money for a while.  Either way it can be a great experience.


 

I think it depends on what love you are turning into a job. I mean, I doubt Stephen King hates being paid to write. Then again, a martial arts school is different than being a full-time writer. After all, you don't need to rent a separate space to write: you can do that from your kitchen, bedroom, living room, bathroom, etc. Also, he doesn't have to worry about keeping many records; no need to worry if so-and-so paid their monthly tuition yet or anything like that. So while he may have the pressures of deadlines, he does NOT have many other pressures involved with a martial arts school or any other business.


----------



## wingchun100

JR 137 said:


> Pai's isnt Tae Kwon Do, it's Take-My-Dough.  Master Yang's is even worse.  But the apple doesn't fall far from the tree... Master Yang was allegedly one of Pai's top guys before he went solo.
> 
> Those two have really done a disservice to TKD in the area.  My uncle, who was a TKD black belt in the 60s-70s in Beirut, Lebanon decided to get back into it about 15 years ago and went to Pai's.  During sparring, he was repeatedly asked "Why are you throwing punches?  They don't score points!"  He said "I'm not here to score points."  They didn't like him very much.  He signed up for the black belt plan.  After he passed his test, they wanted $200 for the belt.  The contract's fine print stated everything but the belt itself was included in the price.  He told them to keep the belt and never returned.


 

I have heard that they made people sign contracts where you had to keep paying until you got your black belt, even if you lost interest and stopped going to class. I don't see how they could legally do that. However, I will say that when I could no longer afford to bring my son, they gave me no trouble when I stopped bringing him.


----------



## WaterGal

Flying Crane said:


> This is true.
> 
> Something to think about, sometimes if you take something you love and try to turn it into your dream job, the frustrations of running a business can end up killing your love for what you are doing.  Some things are best kept as a hobby that you love, rather than a business that you hate.
> 
> I'm not trying to discourage you, and it wasn't my intention to even discuss that issue, but since you brought it up I thought I would offer the contrast.
> 
> I guess what I was really trying to say in my previous post was, don't be afraid to take it slow and figure out if you really like it, even if that means you don't earn any money for a while.  Either way it can be a great experience.



Yeah, agreed. Running a school is like..... 5% doing the training _you _want to do, 35% teaching other people how to do basic things, and 60% handling billing, bookkeeping, sign-ups, attendance, follow-ups, retention, promoting yourself, maintaining your place & equipment, developing lesson plans, refining your program, and praying you don't go out of business.  

It's easy to get burned out and lose sight of why you got started.


----------



## JR 137

wingchun100 said:


> I have heard that they made people sign contracts where you had to keep paying until you got your black belt, even if you lost interest and stopped going to class. I don't see how they could legally do that. However, I will say that when I could no longer afford to bring my son, they gave me no trouble when I stopped bringing him.



The black belt plan, according to my uncle was you pay one price until you pass your black belt test.  Say it's $5k (I don't know how much, that's just a number), you pay the $5k and covers your tuition and testing fees.  If it takes you 20 years or 20 months, you only pay $5k.  You can pay it all at once, down payment and monthly tuition, etc.  But, you pay $5k even if you leave.  But if you leave and come back 20 years later (and paid the $5k already), you don't pay more.  After you get your black belt, a new plan starts.

Sounds enticing for an adult who knows they'll stick to it.  But it's easy to trap a parent.  There are ways out of every contract though.

My uncle wasn't on the black belt plan initially.  He promoted every 4-6 months.  Once he signed up (at a prorated rate), he started promoting every 2-3 months.  Why?  They got their money and wanted a new contract.  After he realized what was going on, he said F them and told them he wasn't ready to test for black belt for over a year after they initially asked him to test.  After he passed, they wanted $200 for the belt (the test was included with his plan, but not the belt itself). He laughed and said keep the belt.  He never went back.


----------



## wingchun100

JR 137 said:


> The black belt plan, according to my uncle was you pay one price until you pass your black belt test.  Say it's $5k (I don't know how much, that's just a number), you pay the $5k and covers your tuition and testing fees.  If it takes you 20 years or 20 months, you only pay $5k.  You can pay it all at once, down payment and monthly tuition, etc.  But, you pay $5k even if you leave.  But if you leave and come back 20 years later (and paid the $5k already), you don't pay more.  After you get your black belt, a new plan starts.
> 
> Sounds enticing for an adult who knows they'll stick to it.  But it's easy to trap a parent.  There are ways out of every contract though.
> 
> My uncle wasn't on the black belt plan initially.  He promoted every 4-6 months.  Once he signed up (at a prorated rate), he started promoting every 2-3 months.  Why?  They got their money and wanted a new contract.  After he realized what was going on, he said F them and told them he wasn't ready to test for black belt for over a year after they initially asked him to test.  After he passed, they wanted $200 for the belt (the test was included with his plan, but not the belt itself). He laughed and said keep the belt.  He never went back.


 

WTF? There is no way a belt can cost $200 unless it is made out of unicorn skin.


----------



## Tames D

wingchun100 said:


> WTF? There is no way a belt can cost $200 unless it is made out of unicorn skin.


It's called "profit"


----------



## JR 137

Tames D said:


> It's called "profit"



Beat me too it.

Actually there are some black belts that can cost over $100 after embroidery (retail).  Shureido, Tokaido and Eosin Panther come to mind.  They're hand made and are truly built to last.

This isn't what Pai and his boys are giving out though.  $30 belts at best.  Take-My-Dough.


----------



## wingchun100

Tames D said:


> It's called "profit"


 
It's called "ridiculous." Like J R said, they aren't even giving out the high-quality belts.


----------



## wingchun100

I had my first lesson with someone yesterday. I told the guy I am going to be teaching wing chun. Then I get there and he says, "I'm not into forms. They aren't useful in a fight." I tried telling him, "They teach you the proper structure of the techniques in a relaxed environment where you can really focus on them." He was still adamant about not wanting to do them, so I humored him and we played chi sao (he studied JKD so he knew how to...sort of). We also did some drills on focus mitts and a few self-defense applications.

He was also familiar with my former Sifu, who was accepted as a student under Ip Ching. This fellow busts out with, "That was a lie, you know. He is not Ip Ching's student." I am not really on good terms with Sifu Cichon anymore, but I would never discredit his qualifications. It struck me as disrespectful. Not for nothing, but why would Sifu Cichon put it out there for all the world to know that he is Ip Ching's student, when those who care to pursue it enough could find out it was a lie?

Anyway, on the one hand I know I am trying to run a "business" and should therefore not get "personal" about it, but then again I think a teacher should also have the right to refuse a student if they choose to. Imagine if someone comes to you and you know them to be the kind of person who gets into bar brawls on a regular basis. You wouldn't want to give them tools to be a DEADLIER bar brawler, right?

I think a working relationship has to WORK. If something about a student rubs you the wrong way, I think you have the right to not teach them anymore. Then again, if you turn away TOO many people, that could be a problem as well.


----------



## wingchun100

Had another guy contact me and kept asking about my lineage, how long I have studied, if I could give a number for a "reference," etc. I asked my Sifu if he would mind this guy contacting him. He said, "No, but your skills should speak for themselves." I said, "I agree, but a lot of people are obsessed with lineage."

Then this would-be student kept insisting that I send him training videos. I have none available, and I admitted as much. I had previously told him that the first lesson is complimentary, so he should just meet me for that free lesson. He said, "Okay but I really think you should get some videos up, so people can prove you are who you say you are."

I said, "I know no one knows me, and I don't know them. However, all we have to do is meet, and my skills will speak for themselves. Not knowing each other is another reason why I suggest having the lesson (which, for the moment, are one on one) in a public place."

He stopped replying. Oh well. It was starting to give me a bad vibe anyway.


----------



## Paul_D

wingchun100 said:


> Hey everyone,
> Recently I was given permission by my Sifu to teach Wing Chun.


Forgive my ignorance, but I am curiois.  Why do you need his permisison?


----------



## wingchun100

Paul_D said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but I am curiois.  Why do you need his permisison?


 
It is important to me personally, as it should be to any self-respecting martial artist, to get their teacher's permission before moving on and teaching students of their own. It is the teacher's way of showing that you know what you're doing, and you won't be doing a disservice to those who come to you for lessons. Can you imagine if, after one week of classes, everyone ran out of their martial arts class and started trying to teach others? That would be chaos. No, we need rules, and one rule is: out of respect to your teacher, you should not be trying to gather up students of your own unless you have been given permission.


----------



## wingchun100

I realize no one else is posting on this except me, so it is almost like I am turning this into a blog or something. Oh well...if the mods dislike that, I am sure they will lock the thread. LOL

Last night I went to this recreation center and asked if I could reserve a room to teach either as a one-shot demo to get myself some students. They said they don't do that. However, they currently do not have any kind of martial arts programs there, so they would consider HIRING me and having me teach it on a regular basis. I would have to come in and do a demonstration for the people who would hire me.

Sounds promising. In the meantime, I have been calling college campuses and libraries (the ones that are big enough to have activity rooms) to see if I could do a demo or ongoing thing there. The biggest victory would be if I could get on SUNY Albany's campus, since they have the largest student body in my area.


----------



## marques

wingchun100 said:


> "They teach you the proper structure of the techniques in a relaxed environment where you can really focus on them."


Just to highlight this sentence. This is important. People want everything fast, here and now (Krav Maga marketing?). Me too. 

I would agree with your student  but it is just by (de)formation martial (as your student?). I would replace forms by single techniques and a solid target (a person, at best)... And yet, I am always willing to jump to the sparring moment.


----------



## Paul_D

wingchun100 said:


> . It is the teacher's way of showing that you know what you're doing


Doesn't your grade do that?


----------



## wingchun100

Paul_D said:


> Doesn't your grade do that?



There are no grades or belts in my school.


----------



## Dong xiao hu

wingchun100 said:


> There are no grades or belts in my school.


This is most often the case in TCMA. No belts no grades just hard work (Kung Fu). 

Sent from my Z797C using Tapatalk


----------



## wingchun100

Heading out to a gym tonight that is only about 10 minutes from me to see if they have affordable rates.


----------



## Paul_D

wingchun100 said:


> There are no grades or belts in my school.


That explains it, thanks.


----------



## wingchun100

Follow-up: the gym was willing to offer me one night per week for $100 per month. Not too bad, considering if I had as little as 4 students, I could at least break even. Now...where do I get 4 students? lol


----------



## marques

wingchun100 said:


> Follow-up: the gym was willing to offer me one night per week for $100 per month. Not too bad, considering if I had as little as 4 students, I could at least break even. Now...where do I get 4 students? lol


Do you have at least one student? I guess you have, from another thread. Can you 'invest' (loss  ) some money a few months, teaching fewer students than needed for breakeven? If your answer is yes for both questions, you can open a dojo!

Ok, the '4 students'... Once you have an open dojo, you can advertise, what can be quite free (online, flyers...) and, eventually, attract a few people.  How did your instructor (or Sifu, or whatever...  )?

Other thoughts: Can you negotiate that $100? Could it be $80, for instance? At least for a few initial months? (Asking is free...) How much can you charge to your students, not a mini-minimum but a fair value?

Last one: new bars, clubs and restaurant put there all the friends they have just for an apparent movement in the business. Can you 'teach' a few friends for showing up*?  Perhaps they continue in the long term, perhaps they suffer a few months (1h a week) for you until being replaced by truly interested (and paying) people...

*I did it. And they paid! Some quitted when I quitted, some continued for a while... Also, it was common practice receiving students from other schools, but the same organisation, for free. The room was full since month 1.


----------



## WaterGal

That sounds great!  Would your students have to be gym members, or could other people come into the gym just to take your class?  

If your students don't have to be gym members, I'm pretty sure you could charge more than $25/mo - I think $40/mo would be very reasonable, especially if you need to buy any equipment.  Either way, I'd suggest you try offering a few free classes to drum up interest.  And Marques has a good suggestion about getting some friends to come train with you in order to make it look like your classes are busy.  People are more likely to join a busy class than an empty one.


----------



## wingchun100

marques said:


> Do you have at least one student? I guess you have, from another thread. Can you 'invest' (loss  ) some money a few months, teaching fewer students than needed for breakeven? If your answer is yes for both questions, you can open a dojo!
> 
> Ok, the '4 students'... Once you have an open dojo, you can advertise, what can be quite free (online, flyers...) and, eventually, attract a few people.  How did your instructor (or Sifu, or whatever...  )?
> 
> Other thoughts: Can you negotiate that $100? Could it be $80, for instance? At least for a few initial months? (Asking is free...) How much can you charge to your students, not a mini-minimum but a fair value?
> 
> Last one: new bars, clubs and restaurant put there all the friends they have just for an apparent movement in the business. Can you 'teach' a few friends for showing up*?  Perhaps they continue in the long term, perhaps they suffer a few months (1h a week) for you until being replaced by truly interested (and paying) people...
> 
> *I did it. And they paid! Some quitted when I quitted, some continued for a while... Also, it was common practice receiving students from other schools, but the same organisation, for free. The room was full since month 1.


 
I don't have any students. The one guy who did meet with me never called for another lesson. The second guy who contacted me kept insisting we meet at my place instead of somewhere in public. Right now I am not in a position to take a loss, unfortunately. However, I am working my way toward a point where I COULD, for a month or two.

Not sure I could negotiate down to $80, but then again like you said, asking is free.

I am all set on the way to advertise. However, as for friends who would do that...I am sure they would, if they had the time. Then again, I am sure there are some who do have the time, but still wouldn't. Today's lesson: get better friends!


----------



## wingchun100

WaterGal said:


> That sounds great!  Would your students have to be gym members, or could other people come into the gym just to take your class?
> 
> If your students don't have to be gym members, I'm pretty sure you could charge more than $25/mo - I think $40/mo would be very reasonable, especially if you need to buy any equipment.  Either way, I'd suggest you try offering a few free classes to drum up interest.  And Marques has a good suggestion about getting some friends to come train with you in order to make it look like your classes are busy.  People are more likely to join a busy class than an empty one.


 
They don't have to be gym members. I won't need to buy any equipment up front, fortunately, because the gym already has some. 

Thanks for the replies!


----------



## marques

Another thing I also find sometimes is advertising without a timetable, yet (no rent to pay). Like for an introductory class, once you have X interested people. Perhaps between the current clients of the gym (if it is big enough) you may have already a few interested people. Some flyers on the gym and something on the gym's website would get a few guys. I would do it, as a gym manager, in order to receive my $100/month, eventually. And $200/month when you needed 2 classes a week...

You have +20 years experience, a book published... You're not a kid with 3 years training. 4 students does not seem a lot. 

PS: why so little participation? So much instructors over here and no one can remember how started the school?


----------



## Buka

marques said:


> PS: why so little participation? So much instructors over here and no one can remember how started the school?



I haven't participated much because I have nothing to add, I wish I did. I never ran a small club, never had a need to advertise, never dealt with insurance until the late eighties, and someone did it for me.


----------



## marques

Buka said:


> I haven't participated much because I have nothing to add, I wish I did. I never ran a small club, never had a need to advertise, never dealt with insurance until the late eighties, and someone did it for me.


What about a big club? Insurances _only_ during the last 30 years!? What were you doing before? 
(Ok, at least the thread is up...)


----------



## Buka

marques said:


> What about a big club? Insurances _only_ during the last 30 years!? What were you doing before?
> (Ok, at least the thread is up...)



I never had insurance for the first fifteen years I taught. I know that sounds foolish _today_, but it was a different world back then, we never even thought of it. It was a far less litigious society then, even in a heavy contact system. None of my acquaintances who ran dojos had it either, or any of the boxing gyms I trained in. I know this because we discussed it years later.

After an incident, I said to my business partner (who ran the books/office/taxes etc) "get insurance". So he did.

The year before (the incident) I got sued. For six million dollars. A little weasel of a man walked into the dojo, asking for me by name. I shook his hand and he slapped a summons into mine.

There was a family who had trained at my school, two brothers, two sister and a cousin. They became bullies (evil family) So I threw them all out. The mom said they would go somewhere else and that I'd pay. I told her "good luck with that plan". When I bounced them, I called every dojo within an hours drive and warned them about this family. Nobody would take them as students - hence the law suit. Their suit claimed one of the brothers, seventeen years old, broke his nose during unsupervised sparring. (In reality, he broke his nose crashing a stolen car)

In my dojo at the time were twenty cops and several attorneys. Most of whom went to the hearing before a magistrate. (pre trial, I guess you would call it) The ambulance chasing firm they hired (on spec) sent four nifty lawyers. All of whom slunk out of there with egg on their face and their tale between their legs. After that I got insurance. But I still don't think I should have. I don't see the need if you're honest. Yes, I know, that's all pipe dreams, but I believe that to this day.

But that's because I've trained a whole lot of lawyers. 
My opinion should in no way be misconstrued as advice, especially business advice.


----------



## marques

Wow! Not expecting so much! You have a good life...


----------



## wingchun100

Been a while since I updated!

Made some strides.

1) A local recreation center is having me come in to do a demo (for the people who set up programs there) of what my class would be like. If they like what they see, then I will be hired on to teach there on a regular basis.

2) A local community college holds non-college credit courses on a regular basis. These are classes like "how to write a novel" or "how to sell on eBay." I proposed an introduction to Wing Chun class, and they agreed to go ahead with it! If all goes well, I can offer it again.

3) I was talking with a gentleman I met through a Facebook group that my friend runs. Originally, this guy (his name is Ken) wanted to train with me on his own. A couple days ago, he sent me a private message asking if he AND HIS BUDDY can train with me.

Lots of good things on the horizon!


----------



## wingchun100

Updates on all of this:

1) The rec center turned me down.

2) The community college class has been approved. February 23, 7:15-915.

3) The guy who wanted to train with me wanted to barter instead of give me cash. He said he has his own serves that he could host a website on for me. Then he said that he would do an even exchange: one hour of work on the website for one free lesson. Well, come to find out the servers aren't even his. He is just trying to drum up business for a friend! So I am going to tell him, "Ixnay on the sitey-bay. Give me your hard-earned money."

Actually there have been more developments regarding my "school," which I will discuss at a later point when I feel more comfortable doing so.


----------



## JowGaWolf

wingchun100 said:


> The rec center turned me down.


 No problem there is always more Rec centers.  What doesn't work at one may work at another.  Did they say what they like or what they didn't like?  Did they mention anything in regards to how it may not be a good fit?  Did you remember to state how it develops character, helps against bullies, builds self confidence, improve strength.etc.



wingchun100 said:


> 2) The community college class has been approved. February 23, 7:15-915.


.  Awesome.



wingchun100 said:


> 3) The guy who wanted to train with me wanted to barter instead of give me cash. He said he has his own serves that he could host a website on for me. Then he said that he would do an even exchange: one hour of work on the website for one free lesson. Well, come to find out the servers aren't even his. He is just trying to drum up business for a friend! So I am going to tell him, "Ixnay on the sitey-bay. Give me your hard-earned money."


 Barters are always tricky things.   Good news his he can pay you money and you can use that money to do what you need with a website. lol.  A win, win for you.

Other than that it looks like it's going well for you.  In short.  One Rec center will miss out on a unique opportunity for them, the college approved you, and you avoided a bad barter.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

wingchun100 said:


> Updates on all of this:
> 
> 1) The rec center turned me down.
> 
> 2) The community college class has been approved. February 23, 7:15-915.
> 
> 3) The guy who wanted to train with me wanted to barter instead of give me cash. He said he has his own serves that he could host a website on for me. Then he said that he would do an even exchange: one hour of work on the website for one free lesson. Well, come to find out the servers aren't even his. He is just trying to drum up business for a friend! So I am going to tell him, "Ixnay on the sitey-bay. Give me your hard-earned money."
> 
> Actually there have been more developments regarding my "school," which I will discuss at a later point when I feel more comfortable doing so.


The barter sounds like a bad deal, anyway, unless the person you're bartering with is really good. Trading training for a bad website can be a losing proposition, especially if he's slow (lots of hours). If I tried to barter my web work, you'd owe me an entire year of classes by the time I got the damned thing done....


----------



## Flying Crane

Buka said:


> I never had insurance for the first fifteen years I taught. I know that sounds foolish _today_, but it was a different world back then, we never even thought of it. It was a far less litigious society then, even in a heavy contact system. None of my acquaintances who ran dojos had it either, or any of the boxing gyms I trained in. I know this because we discussed it years later.
> 
> After an incident, I said to my business partner (who ran the books/office/taxes etc) "get insurance". So he did.
> 
> The year before (the incident) I got sued. For six million dollars. A little weasel of a man walked into the dojo, asking for me by name. I shook his hand and he slapped a summons into mine.
> 
> There was a family who had trained at my school, two brothers, two sister and a cousin. They became bullies (evil family) So I threw them all out. The mom said they would go somewhere else and that I'd pay. I told her "good luck with that plan". When I bounced them, I called every dojo within an hours drive and warned them about this family. Nobody would take them as students - hence the law suit. Their suit claimed one of the brothers, seventeen years old, broke his nose during unsupervised sparring. (In reality, he broke his nose crashing a stolen car)
> 
> In my dojo at the time were twenty cops and several attorneys. Most of whom went to the hearing before a magistrate. (pre trial, I guess you would call it) The ambulance chasing firm they hired (on spec) sent four nifty lawyers. All of whom slunk out of there with egg on their face and their tale between their legs. After that I got insurance. But I still don't think I should have. I don't see the need if you're honest. Yes, I know, that's all pipe dreams, but I believe that to this day.
> 
> But that's because I've trained a whole lot of lawyers.
> My opinion should in no way be misconstrued as advice, especially business advice.


The little teaching I have done was in my back yard, with one student who is more of a friend and training partner, and I don't charge any fee.  My benefit is that i get to have a training partner.

As such, I believe that my homeowners liability insurance would cover me if there is an injury.  It is not a business, and we are just having a workout together.  Once you collect money, then it becomes a business and homeowners liability is likely to not cover you for that activity.  So check with your insurance provider.

Needless to say, I have a day job


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> Trading training for a bad website can be a losing proposition


As a freelance website designer I have seen tons of bad deals when it comes to websites.  Either people get websites made but the designer doesn't provide support, or the designer makes the website in such a way that the owner has to contact the designer for every single update even the small ones.  Before CMS that was the norm, but now with CMS there is no reason why the owner should have to contact the designer to make small updates to the website or simple pages (unless the owner just doesn't want to do it).  Then there's the, I don't like it factor.  If the deal is to design a website in exchange for a service then does that mean you have to like the website, or does an average or below average website qualify for their end of the barter.  Then there's the I decided that I don't like Wing Chun so I'll won't do more than one hour of training and you only get 1 hour of website design,  1 hour of website design could be brainstorming and planning and not actual design.


----------



## wingchun100

JowGaWolf said:


> No problem there is always more Rec centers.  What doesn't work at one may work at another.  Did they say what they like or what they didn't like?  Did they mention anything in regards to how it may not be a good fit?  Did you remember to state how it develops character, helps against bullies, builds self confidence, improve strength.etc.
> 
> .  Awesome.
> 
> Barters are always tricky things.   Good news his he can pay you money and you can use that money to do what you need with a website. lol.  A win, win for you.
> 
> Other than that it looks like it's going well for you.  In short.  One Rec center will miss out on a unique opportunity for them, the college approved you, and you avoided a bad barter.




Yes, I definitely told them about the helping against bullies and building self-confidence. I will have to reread his email. I don't think he really described WHY it was not what they were looking for at this time.


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## JowGaWolf

wingchun100 said:


> Yes, I definitely told them about the helping against bullies and building self-confidence. I will have to reread his email. I don't think he really described WHY it was not what they were looking for at this time.


They must be MMA fan boys


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## wingchun100

JowGaWolf said:


> They must be MMA fan boys


 
It's been a couple weeks, so it might be odd to suddenly reach back out and be like, "By the way, why did you turn this down?" I think the time to ask was immediately after hearing it.

That's the way I have always been though. If someone says "no," I figure: why digging into the reasons? It's not likely that I will turn them around.


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## JowGaWolf

wingchun100 said:


> It's been a couple weeks, so it might be odd to suddenly reach back out and be like, "By the way, why did you turn this down?" I think the time to ask was immediately after hearing it.
> 
> That's the way I have always been though. If someone says "no," I figure: why digging into the reasons? It's not likely that I will turn them around.


You're right.  no need to dig for a reason if they didn't give a reason.


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## Gerry Seymour

wingchun100 said:


> It's been a couple weeks, so it might be odd to suddenly reach back out and be like, "By the way, why did you turn this down?" I think the time to ask was immediately after hearing it.
> 
> That's the way I have always been though. If someone says "no," I figure: why digging into the reasons? It's not likely that I will turn them around.


I don't think it would be that odd, so long as you approach it the right way. You could just give them a call and say something like, "I'm working on finding a location for my program, and I want to make sure I'm approaching the right kinds of places. Could you share with me what it was you were looking for, and how my program didn't fit it? I'm hoping knowing that will help me spot the right fit quicker in the future."

For you, it's about two things: figuring out what the "wrong" places are looking for, so you can discover the misfit before you get too hopeful; and finding out what places are looking for, so you can adjust your marketing language to highlight how your program does fill that need (assuming it does).


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## JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf said:


> You're right.  no need to dig for a reason if they didn't give a reason.


lol.. I stand corrected.  GPseymour makes a good point


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## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> lol.. I stand corrected.  GPseymour makes a good point


I just love clicking "agree" to statements like that. Makes me smile every time.


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## wingchun100

Random update: I have abandoned this idea for a little. Probably good to do so, since I don't even know the two weapons forms and need to get in a lot more chi sao practice. My main goals right now: better rooting and better chi sao. Kind of hard to seem like a knowledgeable fella when your rooting sucks.

Actually, what my Sifu said to me was that better skill is what allows one to uproot another, and a novice might not be able to uproot me. So my goal for now is to achieve that deeper understanding. It has always amazed me to see these people who can take one section of a form and tell you eighty different ways to apply it before they even take a breath.


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## Gerry Seymour

wingchun100 said:


> Random update: I have abandoned this idea for a little. Probably good to do so, since I don't even know the two weapons forms and need to get in a lot more chi sao practice. My main goals right now: better rooting and better chi sao. Kind of hard to seem like a knowledgeable fella when your rooting sucks.
> 
> Actually, what my Sifu said to me was that better skill is what allows one to uproot another, and a novice might not be able to uproot me. So my goal for now is to achieve that deeper understanding. It has always amazed me to see these people who can take one section of a form and tell you eighty different ways to apply it before they even take a breath.


Just my input, Steve. If you feel like you don't have the fundamentals where they need to be, shore them up. At the same time, nearly everyone I know felt that way when they started teaching. WC has a very long curriculum, so I'm not sure what it means that you're missing the two weapons forms. My only recommendation is that you be sure you can teach the stuff the beginners need to get right before you start teaching. You'll never feel ready, even when you are.


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## wingchun100

gpseymour said:


> Just my input, Steve. If you feel like you don't have the fundamentals where they need to be, shore them up. At the same time, nearly everyone I know felt that way when they started teaching. WC has a very long curriculum, so I'm not sure what it means that you're missing the two weapons forms. My only recommendation is that you be sure you can teach the stuff the beginners need to get right before you start teaching. You'll never feel ready, even when you are.



I don't agree with the long curriculum. There are only 6 forms: two weapons, one dummy form, and three empty hand. I have the fundamentals down fine. After all, NO beginner has good rooting, so I know that I could at least teach the basics. The good thing is that while they are developing their basics, I will also be training the advanced stuff, so theoretically I should stay ahead of the curve. Nothing would be worse than winding up with students who are better than you...because who's going to come to your school if you aren't even as good as your students? They might as well pay the students instead! LOL


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## Gerry Seymour

wingchun100 said:


> I don't agree with the long curriculum. There are only 6 forms: two weapons, one dummy form, and three empty hand. I have the fundamentals down fine. After all, NO beginner has good rooting, so I know that I could at least teach the basics. The good thing is that while they are developing their basics, I will also be training the advanced stuff, so theoretically I should stay ahead of the curve. Nothing would be worse than winding up with students who are better than you...because who's going to come to your school if you aren't even as good as your students? They might as well pay the students instead! LOL


I wouldn't worry too much about having students who are better than you. It happens in business (managers who have employees who become better managers), and it should happen in MA. I am a better teacher than technician (at least in my head), so I'd love to create a student or two who are better than me. I'd know where to send them for some more advanced training, too. I think of boxing, MMA, etc. as a model for this. The best coaches out there are most likely not better cage/ring fighters than the folks they coach (the same goes for golf coaches, etc.).


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## wingchun100

gpseymour said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about having students who are better than you. It happens in business (managers who have employees who become better managers), and it should happen in MA. I am a better teacher than technician (at least in my head), so I'd love to create a student or two who are better than me. I'd know where to send them for some more advanced training, too. I think of boxing, MMA, etc. as a model for this. The best coaches out there are most likely not better cage/ring fighters than the folks they coach (the same goes for golf coaches, etc.).



I hear you. Still, in the long run I think waiting is best for me. There is too much else going on for me to even really focus on it.


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