# Is Tang Soo Do the same as Taekwondo?



## TKDJUDO

I've been youtubing lately the concept of Tang Soo Do and seems like their kicks, and sparring are the same as TaeKwondo. Do any expert TSDers know the main difference between the two arts and the most prominent aspect of Tang Soo Do ?


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## arnisador

No, they're different. TKD came from Japanese roots while TSD has more Chinese influence. TSD tends to put less emphasis on sport.


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## Makalakumu

TSD and TKD were the same thing 50 years ago.  They have diverged paths, however.  TKD practices different forms, they spar different, and they have different basics then most TSD schools.  Further, as mentioned above, there is less of a sporting aspect in TSD.  

Essentially, both of these arts are rooted in Shotokan.  Understanding the history of either means that you need to know about the history of "japanese" karete.


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## dancingalone

All the shuri-te derived arts like Shotokan, TKD, and TSD look alike if the student is at a superficial level when his stance work and power generation methods are not understood or realized.  When taught and practiced correctly, a student in each of those disciplines can and should look different from each other when fighting and certainly at the least when practicing forms.


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## SageGhost83

I agree with dancingalone. They all share the same roots, but they all branched off at some point and have become quite different. Shotokan places a lot of emphasis on form and it is about generating obscene amounts of power. Plus there is that ikken hisatsu thing. Taekwondo seems to be more natural, less rigid, based around speed moreso than power, and the empasis is geared more toward sparring than perfecting one's form. Tang Soo Do, while I have only watched others practice it and my experience in it is haphazard at best, looks similar to Shotokan and Taekwondo put together, but there are a lot of little quirks and clever technical variations in there (such as the execution of the high block) that make it quite different from the other two. TKD and TSD have the same "parents", but they are not twins. TSD seems to be more traditional than TKD, and they still practice a lot of the old Shotokan katas. TKD seems to be more focused on competition and it uses the newly created forms. Of course, this is only from my own experience. Hope this helps.


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## JT_the_Ninja

SageGhost83 said:


> I agree with dancingalone. They all share the same roots, but they all branched off at some point and have become quite different. Shotokan places a lot of emphasis on form and it is about generating obscene amounts of power. Plus there is that ikken hisatsu thing. Taekwondo seems to be more natural, less rigid, based around speed moreso than power, and the empasis is geared more toward sparring than perfecting one's form. Tang Soo Do, while I have only watched others practice it and my experience in it is haphazard at best, looks similar to Shotokan and Taekwondo put together, but there are a lot of little quirks and clever technical variations in there (such as the execution of the high block) that make it quite different from the other two. TKD and TSD have the same "parents", but they are not twins. TSD seems to be more traditional than TKD, and they still practice a lot of the old Shotokan katas. TKD seems to be more focused on competition and it uses the newly created forms. Of course, this is only from my own experience. Hope this helps.



I believe dancingalone's point was that an _untrained_ eye will see them as similar if not the same. Kick, punch, block. If you don't know anything about form, stance, et cetera, it can all look alike. If you take the time to look at it closely and learn something about it, though, there are differences aplenty.


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## Tez3

I had to stop doing my beloved Wado Ryu when the instructors left the area and I now do TSD, it was easy to pick up because the katas are so similiar as is the sparring. I've been to TKD classes before and found them very different from karate and TSD.


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## exile

Tez3 said:


> I had to stop doing my beloved Wado Ryu when the instructors left the area and I now do TSD, it was easy to pick up because the katas are so similiar as is the sparring. *I've been to TKD classes before and found them very different from karate and TSD*.



Tezwhat are the main differences you've noticed?


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## JWLuiza

exile said:


> Tezwhat are the main differences you've noticed?


Hi exile,

I'm not Tez, but I have some experience with Shotokan, TKD, and TSD.  Shotokan and TSD are similar (=!same) in terms of generating power through the hips.  Hip positions and technique specifics do vary somewhat.  However, the lines are easily crossed if a practitioner were to switch from one to the other.  The big difference would be in the sparring aspect.  (Focus on very strong finishing technique, ikken hisatsu, vs. 50/50 hands/feet mix of TSD with less emphasis on stopping power of individual techniques.

While TKD has some roots with both TSD and Okinawan/Japanese karate, the technique execution isn't as focused on hip rotation and precision in TKD (ITF style is closes to TSD IMHO).

But, each school is slightly different, so your mileage might vary.


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## exile

JWLuiza said:


> Hi exile,
> 
> I'm not Tez, but I have some experience with Shotokan, TKD, and TSD.  Shotokan and TSD are similar (=!same) in terms of generating power through the hips.  Hip positions and technique specifics do vary somewhat.  However, the lines are easily crossed if a practitioner were to switch from one to the other.  The big difference would be in the sparring aspect.  (Focus on very strong finishing technique, ikken hisatsu, vs. 50/50 hands/feet mix of TSD with less emphasis on stopping power of individual techniques.
> 
> While TKD has some roots with both TSD and Okinawan/Japanese karate, the technique execution isn't as focused on hip rotation and precision in TKD (ITF style is closes to TSD IMHO).
> 
> But, each school is slightly different, so your mileage might vary.



Much appreciated, JWL! 

My own TKD lineage, Song Moo Kwan, is very much, and deliberately, modeled on Shotokan, and hip rotation into both upper body and lower body strikes is heavily emphasized; our idea is that in the end you can simply blast through the attacker's guard, and limb destruction is the name of our game, or at least a big part of it.  But it's certainly true that for schools and styles that emphasize the sport aspect, the quick tagging movements involved demand little or no hip involvement. 

Mind you, I've seen a similar falling away from hard all-out power generation in Shotokan competitors who focus on sport competition for too long... :uhohh:


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## JWLuiza

exile said:


> Much appreciated, JWL!
> 
> My own TKD lineage, Song Moo Kwan, is very much, and deliberately, modeled on Shotokan, and hip rotation into both upper body and lower body strikes is heavily emphasized; our idea is that in the end you can simply blast through the attacker's guard, and limb destruction is the name of our game, or at least a big part of it.  But it's certainly true that for schools and styles that emphasize the sport aspect, the quick tagging movements involved demand little or no hip involvement.
> 
> Mind you, I've seen a similar falling away from hard all-out power generation in Shotokan competitors who focus on sport competition for too long... :uhohh:



Yeah, old school Kwan training probably looked 98% like Japanese University Karate, which in turn was heavily influenced by Kendo training the Japanese  University students acquired.


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## agemechanic03

exile said:


> Much appreciated, JWL!
> 
> My own TKD lineage, Song Moo Kwan, is very much, and deliberately, modeled on Shotokan, and hip rotation into both upper body and lower body strikes is heavily emphasized; our idea is that in the end you can simply blast through the attacker's guard, and limb destruction is the name of our game, or at least a big part of it.  But it's certainly true that for schools and styles that emphasize the sport aspect, the quick tagging movements involved demand little or no hip involvement.
> 
> Mind you, I've seen a similar falling away from hard all-out power generation in Shotokan competitors who focus on sport competition for too long... :uhohh:



Exile, I study TSD here in Korea, and we focus heavily on the Hip twist for the same reasons to and so does the  US Soo Bahk Do. I've seen the differences too in TKD and TSD but not with a lot of experience. I got lucky with the TKD I studied in Georgia a few years back, it was a lot of SD and not so focused on the sport aspect of it.


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## terryl965

Well my TKD ises the hip as well and Exile knows this and we do both Kukkiwon and WTF, I guess it is you gas tought you.


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## JWLuiza

terryl965 said:


> Well my TKD ises the hip as well and Exile knows this and we do both Kukkiwon and WTF, I guess it is you gas tought you.



Hey, generalities are just that!  I know I can't lump all TKD schools together.  I'd guess though, that your school maintains a strong Kwan identity?

and, I think you mis-typed a joke at the end of your post... or it is too early for me to read!

Conversley, I've also seen TSD black belt exams that had horrible technique and no hip...  I have a post in the Members in motion section illustrating a form and my use of hips if you'd care to check it out.  I'd love to see something you do.

Best,

J


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## terryl965

I will try and post something this weekend for you and yes it was early this am when I typed the previous post. Sorry


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## foot2face

JWLuiza said:


> Hey, generalities are just that! I know I can't lump all TKD schools together. I'd guess though, that your school maintains a strong Kwan identity?


Like Terry, I'm a KKW TKDist and was taught to generate power from the hip and my school maintained no Kwan identity.


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## JWLuiza

foot2face said:


> Like Terry, I'm a KKW TKDist and was taught to generate power from the hip and my school maintained no Kwan identity.




The differential isn't lack/occurence of hip power, but with the degree of focus on technique and hip power.  I've been to KKW schools and saw VERY minimal hip compared to a Shotokan or TSD school.  

Again, I'd appreciate some video to compare with.  As I've said, I have a video in the Members in Motion section.


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## SageGhost83

JT_the_Ninja said:


> I believe dancingalone's point was that an _untrained_ eye will see them as similar if not the same. Kick, punch, block. If you don't know anything about form, stance, et cetera, it can all look alike. If you take the time to look at it closely and learn something about it, though, there are differences aplenty.


 
I see. Please forgive my misstep.


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## JT_the_Ninja

SageGhost83 said:


> I see. Please forgive my misstep.



Pun intentional?


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## SageGhost83

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Pun intentional?


 
Aha! I almost missed that one :lol2:! Nice catch! No it wasn't intentional, but it was still corny on my part :lol:!


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## foot2face

JWLuiza said:


> The differential isn't lack/occurence of hip power, but with the degree of focus on technique and hip power. I've been to KKW schools and saw VERY minimal hip compared to a Shotokan or TSD school.


I don't doubt your experience. I was trying make the point that one shouldnt pigeonholed KKW TKD. Kicking is highly emphasized in Kukki Tae Kwon Do ( I'm sure no surprise to anyone) and they have a sophisticated understanding of it. KKW TKDist employ their kicks in a variety of ways and rely on no single manner of execution. For example, fast, snappy kicks meant for speed and precision, the kicking equivalent of a jab, will probably have minimal hip engagement and rotation while a power blow will have full hip engagement and rotation, perhaps similar to what you have seen in Shotokan or TSD schools.


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## exile

foot2face said:


> I don't doubt your experience. I was trying make the point that one shouldnt pigeonholed KKW TKD. Kicking is highly emphasized in Kukki Tae Kwon Do ( I'm sure no surprise to anyone) and they have a sophisticated understanding of it. KKW TKDist employ their kicks in a variety of ways and rely on no single manner of execution. For example, fast, snappy kicks meant for speed and precision, the kicking equivalent of a jab, will probably have minimal hip engagement and rotation while a power blow will have full hip engagement and rotation, perhaps similar to what you have seen in Shotokan or TSD schools.



Yesin fact, the hip-driven thrusting side-kick is one of the 'signature dishes' of TKD. 

It's important not to be misled by what you may see in TKD sparring. And even there, I'm pretty sure that plenty of the Olympic foot-taggers could, confronted with a stack of one-inch pine boards, do an admirable job of breaking, using that and other basic 'power' kicks. But power techs like that won't gain them points under tournament conditions, so... The point is, context is crucial, and most TKDists I've seen make full use of hip rotation to ramp up the power of their kicks when that's what's called for. 

It's as f2f says: think of those quick kicks as the equivalent of a jab. The great boxers had, and have, lightening quick jabs, but their knockout punches don't look like jabs.


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## matt.m

For what it is worth........I know in Moo Sul Kwan when we do a side kick for hapkido or Tae Kwon Do for example> The higher more pulled backed chamber of the side kick the more correct and therefore powerful it is.

For example: I can stand 4 inches away from some one in sparring stance and I will pull my right knee to left shoulder, thrust the leg out with full extension and proper hip rotation.  You will know if you do the hip rotation correctly if the heel of your back foot is pointing at your target.

Anyway from 4 inches away from opponent or kick bag I can still kick head high.

Just my .02 to add a bit to Exile.


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## JWLuiza

So, we have decided.... the answer is....

Maybe? No? Yes?


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## foot2face

JWLuiza said:


> So, we have decided.... the answer is....
> 
> Maybe? No? Yes?


Maybe?...Depending on your instructor and lineage.

No?...In current times, in the strictest sense, they are completely different styles.

Yes?...In the past when TSD and TKD were generic, interchangeable terms that were applied to a number of Korean MAs.


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## mtabone

foot2face said:


> Maybe?...Depending on your instructor and lineage.
> 
> No?...In current times, in the strictest sense, they are completely different styles.
> 
> Yes?...In the past when TSD and TKD were generic, interchangeable terms that were applied to a number of Korean MAs.


 
I totally agree with your "no" and "yes". 

TANG SOO!!!


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## Errant108

It's all just Korean karate to me.


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## mtabone

Errant108 said:


> It's all just Korean karate to me.



  .and there is no difference in sword arts from Korea either, or sword arts from anywhere for that matter.and no difference in computers, cars, shoes, shirts, painters, craftsman, politics, governments, food.they are all just groups of things that are similar, hence they are the same.

   Very simple.

   (btw I am being sarcastic. I know that the internet is not the best means of conveying sarcasm, which I will agree is the lowest form of wit, but I have been up for a while so please forgive me this indulgence)

   All the best.

   mtabone


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## Errant108

The differences between Dangsudo and Taegwondo are almost superficial.  It's like comparing Goju-ryu with Shorin-ryu.  Different systems?  Yes.  Both still karate?  Yes.

So, when looking at it from the outside, it is much easier to see that they're the same forest.


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## JWLuiza

Errant108 said:


> The differences between Dangsudo and Taegwondo are almost superficial.  It's like comparing Goju-ryu with Shorin-ryu.  Different systems?  Yes.  Both still karate?  Yes.
> 
> So, when looking at it from the outside, it is much easier to see that they're the same forest.



So Iron Fist is the same as Hun gar and Choy le fut and Praying Mantis?


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## Errant108

JWLuiza said:


> So Iron Fist is the same as Hun gar and Choy le fut and Praying Mantis?



More in the sense that Yang & Chen are both still Taiji.


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## JWLuiza

Errant108 said:


> More in the sense that Yang & Chen are both still Taiji.


 
I was thinking more along the lines of Yugo and Lamborghini both being cars....


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## mtabone

well we are all just using words so does it really matter what each individual word means, each word being a word and meaning completly different things is not important, I mean, they are just all words.

very simple.


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## Errant108

mtabone said:


> well we are all just using words so does it really matter what each individual word means, each word being a word and meaning completly different things is not important, I mean, they are just all words.
> 
> very simple.




An oversimplification, actually.  There is so little different between Dangsudo and Taegwondo.  Blocking, kicking, punching, all karate based.  Forms may vary from school to school, but all are derivations or remixes of Shorin-ryu kata.  The language is the same, the words are the same, it's just a different accent.


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## Errant108

JWLuiza said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of Yugo and Lamborghini both being cars....



More like two different models of the same GM automobile.


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## Makalakumu

I would say that TKD has made substantial moves to differentiate it from TSD.  Most TKD schools devote 90% or more to kicking techniques, where most TSD schools still tend to have a better mix.  Yes, they still have a lot in common, but they are growing apart very quickly.


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## Errant108

upnorthkyosa said:


> I would say that TKD has made substantial moves to differentiate it from TSD.  Most TKD schools devote 90% or more to kicking techniques, where most TSD schools still tend to have a better mix.  Yes, they still have a lot in common, but they are growing apart very quickly.



Emphasis on one set of techniques is not much of a difference.  They're still both using the karate vocabulary.


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## exile

Part of the problem we're having is that we are talking as though there is a simple unitary denotation of 'taekwondo'. But there isn't; my viewpoint is very similar to *Errant's*, because my lineage, Song Moo Kwan (an almost word-for-word translation of _Shotokan_) has never strayed very far from its roots (like those of the other Kwans) in Japanese Karate, and the version of TKD that I study and practice is similar in intent, especially in its SD applications, to karate. But there's a whole continuum of styles and objectives within TKD. And that's just the beginning of the problem...

... because you have to define better what you mean when you ask, is X the same as Y? In terms of martial arts, what are we talking about, really? Basic elements, partly; how they're put together, partly; what the strategic 'master plan' is, partly, and so on. I've seen enough of the FMAs, and other KMAs such as Combat Hapkido, to be pretty sure that TKD is not the same as either, because TKD consistently offers different solutions to a given self-defense problem than either of those do. But in a given street confrontation, does TKD (taught with the intent of providing you with robust, effective, realistic techs) dictate that you do something very different from what TSD teaches you? My impression, from the TSD I've seen, is that it doesn't. I suspect Upnorthkyosa and I would want to do very similar things in the face of a given violence-initiating move. Maybe TSD has a different curriculum from my school, but there are probably a lot of TKD schools whose curricula are at least as different. I don't know that there's enough of a difference to _make_ a difference, in the realm of crucial action.

Let's face it, the only thing that isn't different from X is X itself; to me, the important question is, _how_ different are the two things you're asking about. I just don't see that _much_ difference between TSD and TKD, from that point of view...


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## Makalakumu

Errant108 said:


> Emphasis on one set of techniques is not much of a difference. They're still both using the karate vocabulary.


 
I can see that changing, especially with olympic TKD.  The vocabulary, in terms of kata, kihon, and kumite, is giving way to a purely sport focused art.  Heck, some of these dojangs hardly practice kihon and kata.  It's only a matter of time before they are discarded.

I think of this in terms of biologic speciation.  Eventually, these arts will reach a point where they no longer can reproduce together.


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## Errant108

upnorthkyosa said:


> I can see that changing, especially with olympic TKD.  The vocabulary, in terms of kata, kihon, and kumite, is giving way to a purely sport focused art.  Heck, some of these dojangs hardly practice kihon and kata.  It's only a matter of time before they are discarded.
> 
> I think of this in terms of biologic speciation.  Eventually, these arts will reach a point where they no longer can reproduce together.



This is only true of Olympic TKD, and then only of sparring.  Kukki Taegwondo's pumsae and kihon are still karate based, and there are few completely sport oriented dojang in the WTF.


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## JWLuiza

So, to switch analogies....  They have the same (or similar) toolsets yet the type of work and actual use of the tools shows the difference between the two?


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## Makalakumu

How long do you honestly think that will last?


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## JWLuiza

upnorthkyosa said:


> How long do you honestly think that will last?


 
Honestly,  

I'm not sure I agree with what I said, it was a summary of what others beleive.  I feel like that the approach and paradigm is integral to the essence of the art.  I need to visit some more TKD schools to get a better picture.


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## Errant108

I am not saying there aren't differences.

I am saying that the similiarities so outweigh the differences that making a hard and fast deliniation between the two is a pointless exercise in semantics.  You can't say one is sport and the other is not given the proliferation of Dangsudo/point karate tournaments.  Both are made up of the same kicking, punching, and blocking techniques.


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## exile

Errant108 said:


> This is only true of Olympic TKD, and then only of sparring.  *Kukki Taegwondo's pumsae and kihon are still karate based*, and there are few completely sport oriented dojang in the WTF.





Errant108 said:


> I am not saying there aren't differences.
> 
> I am saying that the similiarities so outweigh the differences that making a hard and fast deliniation between the two is a pointless exercise in semantics.  You can't say one is sport and the other is not given the proliferation of Dangsudo/point karate tournaments.  *Both are made up of the same kicking, punching, and blocking techniques.*



Right, these are the essentials that I think we need to look through the distracting trappings to see. The combat vocabularies are very, very close, and even more important, the ways that they're intended to be used (as per the technical 'instruction manual' contained in the karate-derived hyungs) are very close as well. TSD is relatively conservative, compared with many variants of TKD, in that it still promotes the balanced mix of upper and lower body techs, derived from the KMA's historical sources,  that UpN was alluding to; a lot of TKD schools push kicking techs to the exclusion of most others (in response, no doubt, to the way WTF-style point scoring and judging plays out). But non-sport oriented dojangs, whose curricula are based on the recognition of the effectiveness of hand and elbow strikes and the use of the upper body in setting up finishing strikes (in particular, blows to the head, neck and throat) will try to train students in the full range of TKD techs. And that approach is just as much _taekwondo_ (which is the way of striking with foot _and fist_) as the more familiar Olympic sportified version we've been subject to for so many years.

I see the divergence between TSD and TKD that other people have been talking about in somewhat different termsnamely, I see a counter-tendency that may lead, somewhere down the line, to reintegration of the two, involving the more SD-oriented, realistic application-based part of TKD, the people who are not under the sway of the Korean TKD directorate or its sport-first/ancient-indigenous-lineage self-serving mythology. The kind of 'grass roots' reaction that we are beginning to see against the relentless sport emphasis in TKD , in (i) the work of a number of SD-oriented TKD analysts and (ii) the emergence of new organizational structures (of the sort *Terry* has mentioned in a number of posts), focusing on the combat content of TKD, encourages me in thinking that a lot of TKD people will find common ground with TSD people and views themselves as doing something very similar. That could lead to institutional changes in North America, at least, with some kind of rapprochement between these two extremely similar styles ofwell, Korean karate, as *Errant* has I think correctly identified it.


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## Errant108

I am developing such a man crush on you.


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