# Makers of true historic swords and other weaons?



## Kframe (Mar 29, 2013)

Hi, for my own betterment and knowledge I plan on getting involved in ARMA as side hobby. I was looking for information on who makes Quality, custom or not, swords, daggars, shields and armor.   Now im  starting my own work in leather working, so eventually my goal is to build my skill so I can make my own cuir bouilli armor pieces. Tho im way far away from that, as im only a novice. Thank fully I live near a tandy leather outlet, and have accsess to all sorts of training stuff.  So If you could point me to some custom makers or non custom makers of historic quality weapons id be grateful.


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## chinto (Mar 30, 2013)

check with the SCA in your aria, I cuir bouilli'd leather for armor at times and it worked well. for ARMA  I would do what I did for SCA too, and that is Splint the leather cuir Bouilli with steel splints.  I would check with Michael Z. Williamson if your in the USA.. there are some others but some have stopped making blades.  I understand that Steel Wolf quit making swords at least.  he made a very very good combat capable weapon.


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## Blindside (Mar 30, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Hi, for my own betterment and knowledge I plan on getting involved in ARMA as side hobby. I was looking for information on who makes Quality, custom or not, swords, daggars, shields and armor.   Now im  starting my own work in leather working, so eventually my goal is to build my skill so I can make my own cuir bouilli armor pieces. Tho im way far away from that, as im only a novice. Thank fully I live near a tandy leather outlet, and have accsess to all sorts of training stuff.  So If you could point me to some custom makers or non custom makers of historic quality weapons id be grateful.



http://www.albion-swords.com/
Albion is rated very very highly with regard to accuracy of their construction and quality of their work, they aren't custom so their pieces are more readily available.  

http://armor.com
Arms and Armor also has a very good reputation.

http://www.christianfletcher.com/Christian_Fletcher/Welcome.html
A great cutler is Christian Fletcher, I love his work, it provides a nice compromise for custom hilt/scabbard work on a production blade.


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## Kframe (Mar 31, 2013)

Thanks all, I cant wait to check them out. Ill look into them.


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## jks9199 (Mar 31, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Hi, for my own betterment and knowledge I plan on getting involved in ARMA as side hobby. I was looking for information on who makes Quality, custom or not, swords, daggars, shields and armor.   Now im  starting my own work in leather working, so eventually my goal is to build my skill so I can make my own cuir bouilli armor pieces. Tho im way far away from that, as im only a novice. Thank fully I live near a tandy leather outlet, and have accsess to all sorts of training stuff.  So If you could point me to some custom makers or non custom makers of historic quality weapons id be grateful.



A small suggestion...  Acceptable quality historical armor and weaponry is rather expensive.  It's also very easy to spend quite a lot of money on something that turns out to be inadequate and sub-standard, though it looks good.   You may wish to wait until you've worked with the folks at ARMA a bit and get their guidance for what is worth the investment.  And when you should purchase it...  For example, were you to begin training in most schools of iaido or other Japanese sword arts, you'd probably be advised against purchasing even a dull practice blade, let alone a shinken or live blade, for several years.  Something tells me that the folks at ARMA probably have similar advice...


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## Kframe (Mar 31, 2013)

You might be correct JKS. Problem im going to face with Arma is that ill be the only person practicing it for about a 4 hour drive one direction.  Apparently unlike SCA, which arma does not indulge in, there are not many ARMA places around yet. So I would be doing there home study stuff.  Thankfully they include source material and much help.  I wont be doing much sparring, tho I think they recommend wooden swords to start off with..   Thankfully im not a total newb to sword play, I fenced in college so, hopefully that will give me a little edge up..   Missing fencing now...


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## harlan (Mar 31, 2013)

There is sword-specific internet forum that has a very good reputation. 

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forum.php



Kframe said:


> Hi, for my own betterment and knowledge I plan on getting involved in ARMA as side hobby. I was looking for information on who makes Quality, custom or not, swords, daggars, shields and armor.   Now im  starting my own work in leather working, so eventually my goal is to build my skill so I can make my own cuir bouilli armor pieces. Tho im way far away from that, as im only a novice. Thank fully I live near a tandy leather outlet, and have accsess to all sorts of training stuff.  So If you could point me to some custom makers or non custom makers of historic quality weapons id be grateful.


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## jks9199 (Apr 1, 2013)

Kframe said:


> You might be correct JKS. Problem im going to face with Arma is that ill be the only person practicing it for about a 4 hour drive one direction. Apparently unlike SCA, which arma does not indulge in, there are not many ARMA places around yet. So I would be doing there home study stuff. Thankfully they include source material and much help. I wont be doing much sparring, tho I think they recommend wooden swords to start off with.. Thankfully im not a total newb to sword play, I fenced in college so, hopefully that will give me a little edge up.. Missing fencing now...



ARMA and the SCA have rather different takes on what they do.  They're not quite antithetical to each other, as I understand it, but there are some pretty big differences in mindset.  Loosely like comparing sport martial artists with a koryu tradition, maybe.


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## Kframe (Apr 1, 2013)

Your right about that, JKS. Arma does not do ANY dress up in armor and  re enact stuff.   Ill keep you guys posted on what material I get after I join, tho it may take a while.


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## Blindside (Apr 2, 2013)

You might also want to look into the HEMA Alliance, good information from that group.  

http://hemaalliance.com/

And their forum:

http://hemaalliance.com/discussion/index.php


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## lklawson (Apr 2, 2013)

Blindside said:


> You might also want to look into the HEMA Alliance, good information from that group.
> 
> http://hemaalliance.com/
> 
> ...


+1

There is more than one way to skin a cat and ARMA ain't the only game out there.  I'll give you that they're probably the widest recognized, but there are plenty of others.  And, FWIW, the SCA may not be all bad either.  Many "Kingdoms" and "Barronies" etc. now have a place for HEMA.  I have several friends who teach HEMA at PENNSIC and other SCA events.  It costs you nothing to check with your local chapter and find out if they have a branch that does HEMA locally.

As for what swords you need: Honestly, you want to get that input from whomever your teacher is.  Unlike Iaido or Kenjitsu, you'll probably be handling steel pretty quickly (likely rebated steel) but you'll also be handling wooden "wasters" too, probably immediately.  For the most part of your practice, you'll most likely want a "beater" sword.  To be 100% honest, you don't really need a "completely historically accurate reproduction."  What you need is a sword that has the same dimensions and handling characteristics as a historic sword.  Often this means near custom reproductions, but not always.  An example is the difference between a peened tang and a screw-on.  The latter is historically inaccurate but reduces the cost of production, gives repair and replacement options, and doesn't typically impact handling characteristics.

Balance, taper, fuller, and other elements of the blade become more important the more skilled you become.  A blade that feels fine to a beginner may be a pig to an experienced practitioner (Cold Steel swords have a reputation for this).  This brings us back to "entry level beater swords" again.  Many swordsmen go through several swords before they find one that seems to "fit" them best.  There's a wide variety of blades, grips, cross-guards, etc.  Further, there are different traditions which favor certain details of the blade above others.  I'm not talking just German vs. Italian Longsword stuff alone.

Step 1: Get an instructor, even if it's an instructor that you can only visit once a month or so.

Step 2: Ask him what "Starter" and "Entry Level" gear he recommends, including for solo practice.

Actually, there are steps before that, such as deciding exactly what HEMA weapon you want to study, then which style (if it's even available) because there's a *FREAKING BIG* difference between French Smallsword and Italian Smallsword (never-mind Spanish Rapier!).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Kframe (Apr 2, 2013)

Iklawson, There are no chapters for anything with in several hours of me. I would be practicing mostly on my own and with a friend.   Tho my combatives instructor would likely have no issue with working me on the unarmed and dagger stuff.


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## Kframe (Apr 2, 2013)

I was on the HEMA website and have a question. Are they just a alliance of members or do they provide training materials. Their website is not clear on that.


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## jks9199 (Apr 2, 2013)

lklawson said:


> +1
> 
> There is more than one way to skin a cat and ARMA ain't the only game out there.  I'll give you that they're probably the widest recognized, but there are plenty of others.  And, FWIW, the SCA may not be all bad either.  Many "Kingdoms" and "Barronies" etc. now have a place for HEMA.  I have several friends who teach HEMA at PENNSIC and other SCA events.  It costs you nothing to check with your local chapter and find out if they have a branch that does HEMA locally.



Didn't mean to imply either that ARMA was the only game in town, or that nobody at SCA mixes with the ARMA or HEMA folks.  Just that they do come from different places.


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## jks9199 (Apr 2, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Iklawson, There are no chapters for anything with in several hours of me. I would be practicing mostly on my own and with a friend.   Tho my combatives instructor would likely have no issue with working me on the unarmed and dagger stuff.



If you try to work without any guidance, the odds are great that you won't succeed.  Could you have learned karate from a book, without a teacher's guidance?  I'm not saying it's impossible, but many of the historical works I've looked at presume a certain base of information to start with.  Kind of like if I handed you a senior-level college textbook on something; it likely presumes some knowledge and understanding from the lower level classes, right?


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## Kframe (Apr 2, 2013)

Jks, I have fenced, and know the basic positions. I do Both standing and ground grappling. So I feel I have a decent foundation for studying..  Honestly these groups have to get started in areas by someone.. There is literally NO ONE for HOURS around me that does this stuff.. It has to start some were.


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## Kframe (Apr 2, 2013)

Ok so I was wrong... I found a SCA group in my home town just now...... They claim to do training but I have no idea if its quality or not.. Time for a Email!!


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## Chris Parker (Apr 3, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Jks, I have fenced, and know the basic positions. I do Both standing and ground grappling. So I feel I have a decent foundation for studying..  Honestly these groups have to get started in areas by someone.. There is literally NO ONE for HOURS around me that does this stuff.. It has to start some were.



.....and..... did you ever consider that those who started the groups travelled for "hours" (if not more!) to get enough training to start a group? What I'm saying is that your situation isn't special, you don't get things just because you want them without you putting in some effort and offering some sacrifice. If you do have a group around you, and you don't like their approach, either you travel, or you don't do it.


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## lklawson (Apr 3, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Jks, I have fenced, and know the basic positions.


Which would be somewhat helpful if you wanted to study Smallsword, Court Sword, Dueling Saber, and sometimes some little bit of Rapier work.  It's not very helpful if you're interested in Longsword, Arming Sword, Messer, any ax from Tomahawk to Lochaber, Rondel, Spear, Mace, or Flail.

Define what it is you want to study.



> I do Both standing and ground grappling.


Medieval grappling is often very different from modern grappling because it had a different environment (armour and swords) and different goals.  Renaissance and later wrestling, up through late 19th Century, was very (*VERY!*) regional and also often had different base assumptions about environment and goals.  Catch-as-Catch-Can wrestling is closest to modern "grappling" (as is most commonly understood) but Catch, even old style "Loose Wrestling" styles of Catch, isn't Sambo, BJJ, or Judo.  If you have a good sense of balance, timing, and body movement, such as can be developed in Judo (for instance), then that can go a long way to helping you understand Medieval "combat wrestling" or Paschen's wrestling manual but there will still be lots of "contextual" issues that you'll have to work out or have explained to you.



> So I feel I have a decent foundation for studying..  Honestly these groups have to get started in areas by someone..


True enough.  Most of us who started our own local group would make special effort to travel, some times long distances, to get instruction and correction several times a year.  When I started, I was making trips of 3-5 hours drive about every two months or so.



> There is literally NO ONE for HOURS around me that does this stuff.. It has to start some were.


And where is that, again?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Apr 3, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Ok so I was wrong... I found a SCA group in my home town just now...... They claim to do training but I have no idea if its quality or not.. Time for a Email!!


You might be in luck.  Most likely the training that they're referring to is SCA "Heavy Combat."  This isn't particularly close to Medieval fighting traditions but it is really well optimized for their faux combat sport.  If their training is SCA Heavy Combat, then it's not what you've said you're interested in (not by a long shot).  However, there is a chance that they do have a HEMA training group as well.  Rapier and both the German and Italian Longsword material is taught as a "research" type thing in certain SCA clubs.  From what I have been told by friends, the German Longsword is the more common of the three.

Worth a call to them, anyway.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Kframe (Apr 3, 2013)

Chris parker, your negativity is annoying me.. Do you go out of your way to sound condescending? I never asked for anything special..  NOT ONCE.   I did find one Hema Group in Indianapolis, that's a 2 hour drive for me.  I cant seam to find a website link for them on Hema, but ill keep looking. Sure I could go a few times a month for practice with them, but how is 2 hours 4 times a month meaningfull practice?   Lastly I wanted to mostly do the dagger work and 1 handed sword and longsword.


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## Kframe (Apr 3, 2013)

I wish I could edit my posts... I was in a less then good mood when I wrote it.. Chris, ignore what I wrote about you being negative and condescending. I misinterpreted your post, it sounded negative to me. Your right, I am not entitled to anything special..   

I looked into that Hema group in Indy, and it was disbanded. I found one in Kalamazoo Michigan, but its a 3 hour 1 way drive. I have  email into them and ill let you know what they say.. Ill probably have to arrange something with them, as I wont be able to make that drive very often..


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## Carol (Apr 3, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I wish I could edit my posts... I was in a less then good mood when I wrote it.


 
Just as an FYI...You can edit your posts within the first 60 minutes of posting.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## lklawson (Apr 3, 2013)

Kframe,

I've asked you once already and still haven't heard back from you.  Where are you located?  I am part of the Western Martial Arts community and I have friends, practitioners and Instructors, all over the country and in several other nations.  If I don't know someone in or near your area, I can easily ask my friends and we can find the closest known group or instructor to you.

So, again, where are you?

From your description of distance to Indianapolis and Kalamazoo, I'm guessing near to Effingham, Il. or Cincinnati, Oh.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## jks9199 (Apr 3, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Chris parker, your negativity is annoying me.. Do you go out of your way to sound condescending? I never asked for anything special..  NOT ONCE.   I did find one Hema Group in Indianapolis, that's a 2 hour drive for me.  I cant seam to find a website link for them on Hema, but ill keep looking. Sure I could go a few times a month for practice with them, but how is 2 hours 4 times a month meaningfull practice?   Lastly I wanted to mostly do the dagger work and 1 handed sword and longsword.



First -- how do you know what you might find out if you contact them?  Especially if you take the time to actually go out and train a few times.  Someone just might decide that this Kframe guy is pretty cool, and seems kind of serious, so we'll let him know about the little group we have that's only 1/2 an hour from him...  

As to how meaningful a few hours training a couple of times a month can be... That depends on you.  If you pay attention and practice carefully what they show you, and follow the guidance of the instructors in practicing on your own -- it can be a lot.  If you go in every other Saturday for 2 hours, and then don't touch your sword or other practice gear in between...  Then you almost certainly won't have much success at it.


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## Kframe (Apr 3, 2013)

Iklawson, im in fort wayne Indiana. It takes me about 2 hours to get to indy from where I live. I do tend to drive conservatively tho..  Id appreciate you looking into your contacts.   

JkS, My focus for WMA is dagger. Tho i have every intention of learning some sword skills only because i find them cool, and i don't want to be another katana junky. Not that there is anything wrong with that. 

Ill tell you what im noticing about the dagger work tho. My combative coach teach's some things that are very similar.  



 We have a drill incredibly similar to this...


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## lklawson (Apr 3, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Iklawson, im in fort wayne Indiana. It takes me about 2 hours to get to indy from where I live. I do tend to drive conservatively tho..  Id appreciate you looking into your contacts.


I used to live in Portland.  Friends lived in Ft. Wayne.  Relatives in Muncie.  I'll start checking around.



> Ill tell you what im noticing about the dagger work tho. My combative coach teaches some things that are very similar.
> 
> 
> 
> We have a drill incredibly similar to this...


Fiore system.  Italian.

It is uncommon to teach Fiore dagger in isolation except in seminars.  Everyone I know teaches Fiore as a comprehensive system.  I've studied it a bit.  I use some of his dagger plays in Tomahawk work and I've incorporated some elements of his Spear into my club's 5' staff material.

I'll let you know what I come up with.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Apr 4, 2013)

OK, got a really solid hit for you:


> Suggest to him he come out to Historic Ft Wayne over the weekend of April 13 and
> 14th. there is a HEMA/reencatment event, Early Modern Muster, that weekend and a
> number of folks from the northern Midwest will be there.
> 
> ...


Both Allen (Allen Reed) and Bob Charron are friends and both know what they're doing.  Bob, in particular, is sorta "Mr. Expert on Fiore."  I can't think of anyone more qualified to give a primer or advanced instruction on Fiore dagger plays.

The date is near, the instruction is good, and the location is right on top of you.  Go to this.  Ask questions about study groups, near by or forming one.  Take whatever classes Bob is willing to give (if any).  The guy is a class act.

And say hi to both Bob and Allen from me, Kirk Lawson.  Tell him that the bowie knife and head-thumping brawler from Ohio sends his regards (the "bowie knife" part differentiates me from Ken Pfrenger, also a head-thumping brawler, and mutual friend, from Ohio).  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## mook jong man (Apr 4, 2013)

lklawson said:


> OK, got a really solid hit for you:
> 
> Both Allen (Allen Reed) and Bob Charron are friends and both know what they're doing.  Bob, in particular, is sorta "Mr. Expert on Fiore."  I can't think of anyone more qualified to give a primer or advanced instruction on Fiore dagger plays.
> 
> ...



Yeah , that Bob guy is good .
I went to a seminar of his years ago when he came to Sydney , Australia.
We did a lot of the Fiore stuff , some medieval grappling I think it was , and some Farmer Burns exercises I think he called it.
Highly skilled and a very nice man


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## lklawson (Apr 4, 2013)

While we're on the subject, this year's Recreational Violence WMA Seminar is the first weekend of June out at Ken's at Pymatuming.

http://www.facebook.com/events/169455833208535/?ref=ts&fref=ts

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Kframe (Apr 5, 2013)

Cant type much right now, really busy. HOLY CRAP I didn't know this was even going on! I live in this town lol.   Iklawson, thanks for your help. ill be going to that event both days..  Its says its early modern, 16th and 17th century. Is there really going to be a hema group there as well? I didn't think they did early modern>?  Ill post more when I get back from work.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 5, 2013)

Ha, that's the way it works... these types of interests are rather specialist, so there is rarely much in the way of advertising... most contact is made through word of mouth, personal introductions, and getting to know people who are already involved. Kirk (lklawson) is a fantastic contact to have in this regard. It's the same in Koryu (traditional Japanese arts), for the most part.


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## lklawson (Apr 5, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, that's the way it works... these types of interests are rather specialist, so there is rarely much in the way of advertising... most contact is made through word of mouth, personal introductions, and getting to know people who are already involved. Kirk (lklawson) is a fantastic contact to have in this regard. It's the same in Koryu (traditional Japanese arts), for the most part.


The funny thing is that it's not hard, it just takes time and commitment.  Most folks in the WMA/HEMA community are really stand-up guys.  I started off with an interest and found Ken Pfrenger was near-ish to me in Ohio; a "mere" 3 hour drive or so.  I emailed him with questions, got to know him, then drove out to visit him for instruction and correction.  He never asked one thin dime of me in remuneration but I always made sure to bring something, food, diapers, whatever.  From there, I started attending Seminars and started a study group with a couple of friends from work.  We actually initially trained during lunch hours in the corporate exercise room!  I started making more contacts with instructors and practitioners at seminars.  After I'd established myself and my study for a few years, I was invited to teach at a small seminar (Ken's "Recreational Violence") and I've been going back ever since.  I've made a point to seek particular instruction from Dwight McLemore and his students, eventually gaining a certification from him.  I just worked at "plugging myself into" the community.  Wasn't hard.  Just took time.  

Now I have WMA friends worldwide.  Most of 'em know of my republishing hobby and several have volunteered texts to me (such as my friend Stephan in Germany), others have contacted me for joint republishing projects (such as my friend Jarred), and a few have even come to me for advice on the subject (which, while gratifying, feels a bit weird).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Apr 5, 2013)

I got a hit from the gent in Kalamazoo too.



> I think I'm probably the guy he's found in Kalamazoo. It's going to be a
> fair trek for him, but if he's at all interested in even intermittent (once
> a month or so) training, pass on my contact info. I've got a couple of
> others who suddenly want to start training (one of my criteria for setting
> ...



Keith is another stand up joe.  Worth training with.

His email is: Keith Nelson <keithgnelson@gmail.com> 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Kframe (Apr 6, 2013)

THank you Iklawson for all your help.. Before I commit to driving to Michigan, im going to go to the muster at the historic fort first and talk with your contacts there.  Hopefully they can point me to some trainers closer to me. That I feel would be the wisest first step.  The 2 people you mentioned at the historic fort muster, are they event leaders? Easy to find?   Ill defineatly drop a email to your friend Keith, and try to gather some more information about the style and how my training might look like if I have to do the michagan route.


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## Kframe (Apr 6, 2013)

Off topic, but ill ask.  How does Fiore's dagger  element of his style stack up against modern knife combatives?   Lets say what ever is currently taught in the military.


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## lklawson (Apr 8, 2013)

Kframe said:


> The 2 people you mentioned at the historic fort muster, are they event leaders? Easy to find?


Allen and Bob?  I don't know if they're event leaders or not.  I don't know much about the event other than that they'll both be there and they're giving demos or something.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Apr 8, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Off topic, but ill ask.  How does Fiore's dagger  element of his style stack up against modern knife combatives?   Lets say what ever is currently taught in the military.


Most medieval dagger work has small similarity to modern knife material, which often as not hails from a Filipino martial arts (FMA) background or, sometimes, a Sykes/Fairbairn/Applegate/Styers linage.

What you have to understand is that medieval dagger material evolved in a different context.  Whereas, today, most knife work is predicated on short "pocket knife" sized blades and light, modern, clothing, medieval dagger material was developed for the medieval noblesse and/or knightly environment.  The system, regardless of Italian or German, almost always uses a long, point oriented, rondel knife (which may or may not have a meaningful edge).  It was predicated to heavier clothing appropriate for "The Little Ice Age" and/or use against someone in armour; hence the emphasis of the point over the edge.  Techniques for use of and defense against evolved in this context.

That's the thing about knife, sword, stick, empty-handed systems, &tc.  They all evolve in their own context and the resulting system may not be perfectly adapted for your modern use, whatever that may be, be it military, LEO, or civilian self defense.  I've written (ranted?) about this before here in this forum but, quite literally, everything about the context goes into the system.  There's a reason that the Spanish Navaja is shaped differently from the Rondell or the Balisong.  Clothing, social restrictions, legal restrictions, theories on fighting and restraint, requisites of dueling versus "fighting" (whatever they may think that is), restrictions on social classes, &tc. *all *go into what makes up a fighting system.

If you want to study knife fighting for a modern self defense reason, then just go find a modern school teaching modern knife fighting.  The Filipino systems have frequently adapted well to modern U.S. environment. My friends tell me that Modern Arnis (Presas origins) is quite well adapted.  However, if you're looking for something with a historic flavor, then knife systems from the Middle Ages or the Renaissance (or somewhere/when else) might be interesting to you.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Kframe (Apr 8, 2013)

From what I have seen of the dagger system on videos, it seams to be predominantly gross motor grappling based.  Only based on what I have seen,  I feel it would still perform adequately for todays threats.


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## Tgace (Apr 8, 2013)




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