# Glancing Salute,



## jfarnsworth

Once again I'll put up what I have of this technique. Of course once again it may vary from person to person, studio to studio, and so forth. Please respond with any variations, likes, your dislikes, anything you feel might be helpful for us to gain more insight into this technique.

7. GLANCING SALUTE (front right cross shoulder push) 
1. Standing naturally while opponent pushes your right shoulder with his right hand, step forward and to your left to 11 o'clock with your left foot (into a left neutral bow) immediately pivot to your right (to 3 o'clock) into a right modified horse as your right arm pins opponent's right wrist to your right chest as your left vertical elbow strikes out and against the joint of your opponent's right elbow to cause a break. 
2. Pivot to your left (to 12 o'clock) into a left forward bow as your left hand pins opponent's right arm to his body and your right thrusting heel of palm strikes to opponent's jaw. 
3. Hook the back of opponent's neck with your right hand as it forms the shape of the crane. Pull opponent's neck down as your right knee kicks to opponent's stomach. Land in a right neutral bow facing 12 oclock.
4.  Front crossover cover out towards 6 oclock.


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## Chronuss

probably the only thing different...instead of a modified horse, I go into a right forward bow while pinning the wrist and doing the forearm strike.  then pivot into the left forward while doing a pinning check to the right arm and the right thrusting palm heel to the jaw.


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## Klondike93

That's the way I do it, but at the end after the knee as your landing forward I was taught to add a right flapping elbow to the face.



:asian:


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> *That's the way I do it, but at the end after the knee as your landing forward I was taught to add a right flapping elbow to the face.*



That's how I was taught it ... rotate counter clockwise as you 
execute a right horizontal inward elbow strike to left jaw of 
opponent.


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## Klondike93

Thanks for the correction Kirk   

After playing with the technique for a few minutes that's how I do it as well, with a right inward elbow not a flapping elbow.


:asian:


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> *Thanks for the correction Kirk
> 
> After playing with the technique for a few minutes that's how I do it as well, with a right inward elbow not a flapping elbow.
> 
> 
> :asian: *



LOL, I didn't even catch the difference! Oopsie! hehehe


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## jfarnsworth

I don't know what happened to my elbow description there. I just read it again and it's gone . There should be an opposing forces motion by pulling the head down with the knee strike the land in the neutral bow with the leg check followed by a right inward elbow to the face. Sorry I should have checked it last night.


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## True2Kenpo

In some cases, I have seen the technique been executed just up to the knee strike and then covering out and then some execute the technique finishing with the elbow strike.

I think it will greatly depend upon the reaction of the opponent after being struck with the knee.  Some opponent's will completely drop from the knee strike, possibly making it hard to plant forward or to execute an inward elbow.

Either way, I love the technique...  and the extension even more.

Has anyone watched Mr. Tatum teach the extension to the technique on his videos?  He makes a really great point.

Good journey!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


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## Kirk

What I don't understand is why you don't pull the guy's head
down and smash his face into your knee.


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## True2Kenpo

Kirk,

I think considering the heel palm strike to the face and then hooking behind the neck and pulling them the whole way down to your knee would be an odd angle of execution.  I think to maximize the total effects that a knee strike could cause...  striking tot he body is the best angle of execution.

Just my thoughts...  though I would love a nice knee strike to the face 

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by True2Kenpo _
> *Kirk,
> 
> I think considering the heel palm strike to the face and then hooking behind the neck and pulling them the whole way down to your knee would be an odd angle of execution.  I think to maximize the total effects that a knee strike could cause...  striking tot he body is the best angle of execution.
> 
> Just my thoughts...  though I would love a nice knee strike to the face
> 
> Respectfully,
> Joshua Ryer
> UPK Pittsburgh *



That makes perfect sense.  Thanks!

Any seminars planned up your way in early August?


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## jfarnsworth

A knee to the face would be considered a lifting knee strike. What you want is a thrusting knee strike to drive the attacker back with the strike to the groin or stomach. Drop the hips back to gain access for the elbow to the face.


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## Jill666

Agreed, of course if the face happens to be there, well, oopsie. 

Truly it is usually better to employ the thrusting knee, though- and I appreciate you adding the hip movement to your recent post. That's so important and so many forget to do this resulting in ugly off-balance strikes.


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## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by True2Kenpo _
> *In some cases, I have seen the technique been executed just up to the knee strike and then covering out and then some execute the technique finishing with the elbow strike.
> 
> I think it will greatly depend upon the reaction of the opponent after being struck with the knee.  Some opponent's will completely drop from the knee strike, possibly making it hard to plant forward or to execute an inward elbow.
> 
> Either way, I love the technique...  and the extension even more.
> 
> Has anyone watched Mr. Tatum teach the extension to the technique on his videos?  He makes a really great point.
> 
> Good journey!
> 
> Respectfully,
> Joshua Ryer
> UPK Pittsburgh *



I have, Oh, I think it was me he did it on LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## WilliamTLear

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *I have, Oh, I think it was me he did it on LOL.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> 
> Clyde *



And you haven't been right in the head since! :rofl:


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## Kenpo Yahoo

> What I don't understand is why you don't pull the guy's head
> down and smash his face into your knee?



I had a chance to talk to Guy Metzger a few months back and he stated vehemently that you should never knee to the front of the face.  When I asked him why, he told me that in one of his early fights he did exactly what he had just said not to do and almost passed out after his opponents teeth were imbedded into his knee.  A knee to the ribs, sternum, collarbone, or even side of the face would be good, but I don't like the idea of having some guys pearly whites chomping through my leg.


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## Seig

We had an incident in sparring class last week that illustrates that point.  Tess and Pete were sparring.  He came in on a low level pass, and without thinking, she put a knee in his face.  The result?  Tissue up his nose and an ice pack on her knee accompanied by two days of limping.  If you are going to knee to the face, make sure you do it intentionally and are very accurate.  In MY opinion, which is mine and mine alone, if I am kneeing to the face, I generally go for the lower jaw.


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## jfarnsworth

Yeah, try to clip them under the chin.


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## ken_loc

when you said it may differ from person to person yes , not every body prefers to do the the same technique the same way. 
 But when you said that it may differ from sudio to studio that is what i disagree with. Yes it does differ from studio to studio but this should not be. It should be taught to every one the same way it was established as a technique in that system. Who says that one person has the right to change and teach some thing other than what was learned. yes, on the street one has to execute a technique the way they are comfortable , but a student needs a foundation on which to learn and then later modify to his or her personal preference. To teach something other than what is correct as fact is nothing but a bastardization of the truth. I mean not to offend anyone just expressing my opinion.

                                  yours in kenpo, 
                                          josh




:asian: :asian:


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## jfarnsworth

[/B][/QUOTE] 





> when you said it may differ from person to person yes , not every body prefers to do the the same technique the same way.



I feel the same way.



> But when you said that it may differ from sudio to studio that is what i disagree with.



Your next sentence contradicts this statement.



> Yes it does differ from studio to studio but this should not be. It should be taught to every one the same way it was established as a technique in that system. Who says that one person has the right to change and teach some thing other than what was learned.



I agree 100% that *everyone* should be learning the technique exactly the same. I don't care if it's this country or another one that does Parkers Kenpo.:asian: 



> yes, on the street one has to execute a technique the way they are comfortable



I'm sure that you are very well aware of the what if and formulation phase of kenpo. This just comes from practice and tailoring to what you feel comfortable with once you establish the base curriculum that should be set forth as a standard worldwide.



> but a student needs a foundation on which to learn and then later modify to his or her personal preference.



If you were actually referring to my post in the beginning; Your preaching to the choir bro.



> To teach something other than what is correct as fact is nothing but a bastardization of the truth.



I couldn't agree more. I'm not into bastardizing kenpo in any way, shape, or form.



> I mean not to offend anyone just expressing my opinion.



I'm also not trying to offend you. I'm giving my view points only.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## kevin kilroe

when you do the vertical elbow strike, try to torque into an upward elbow strike.


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## XtremeJ_AKKI

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *What I don't understand is why you don't pull the guy's head
> down and smash his face into your knee.   *



 Think of the smaller guys ripping through this technique. For them, Forward Projection is going to make a LOT of difference in their application. To go with the trap, palm hell, then pull their head down would not only present a ' tangled ' angle to strike through ( due to the unpredictability of his left arm ), but would considerably slow the technique down while killing the Forward Projection. With the FP gone, the smaller guy would have to rely purely on strength while attempting to get the opponent's head down that far, which is a serious Kenpo frown. 

 Hope that helped a bit.


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## matthewgreenland

Good thread-

I see merit to the different takes.  I prefer an upward clearing elbow strike.  Why?  Following the knee, I am usually in tight, hence the short weapon.  I then rip, grind,rake, and drive my upward elbow through in a clearing fashion.  In a way, this motion is similar to the downward raking mid-knuckle in Bow of Compulsion, except the elbow travels up in Glancing, and the mid-knuckle travels down in Bow.


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## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *
> I agree 100% that everyone should be learning the technique exactly the same. I don't care if it's this country or another one that does Parkers Kenpo.:asian: *



But what if it wasn't taught the same way? I would lay money, that Mr. Parker didn't teach it to Mr. Tatum the same way he taught it to Mr. Connatser, or Mr. Trejo.




> *
> I'm sure that you are very well aware of the what if and formulation phase of kenpo. This just comes from practice and tailoring to what you feel comfortable with once you establish the base curriculum that should be set forth as a standard worldwide.
> 
> *



But this part shouldn't be taught until the student can grasp at least a limited understanding of the principles and concepts inherent in the technique.




> *
> 
> I'm also not trying to offend you. I'm giving my view points only.
> Salute,
> Jason Farnsworth *



Same here.

--Dave

:asian:


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## kenpo3631

> _Originally posted by kevin kilroe _
> *when you do the vertical elbow strike, try to torque into an upward elbow strike. *



It *is*  actually an upward elbow strike. Think about the mechanics. If you drive you forearm into the opponent's elbow his body will naturally go away from you (hard to demonstrate over the net), however if you deliver the upward elbow strike to the opponent's elbow it will cause him to go on his toes thus  cancelling out the opponent's backup weapon, thus softening up your opponent for therest of the technique.

Just my observation:asian:


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *But what if it wasn't taught the same way? I would lay money, that Mr. Parker didn't teach it to Mr. Tatum the same way he taught it to Mr. Connatser, or Mr. Trejo.*



Ah, but you see, I'm talking about being taught the same way as a "base technique". How you do it and I do the tech. Doesn't really matter to me after we have learned the "base" technique.



> But this part shouldn't be taught until the student can grasp at least a limited understanding of the principles and concepts inherent in the technique.



Sure, I'll agree with that. :asian:


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## Mike

we learn the base technique as ending with the knee strike/cover out.  The extension that  we learn if fairly long.


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## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *It is  actually an upward elbow strike. Think about the mechanics. If you drive you forearm into the opponent's elbow his body will naturally go away from you (hard to demonstrate over the net), however if you deliver the upward elbow strike to the opponent's elbow it will cause him to go on his toes thus  cancelling out the opponent's backup weapon, thus softening up your opponent for therest of the technique.
> 
> Just my observation:asian: *


It's actually written out as a horizontal elbow but the vertical will work if you're not doing the extension.    The horizontal fits perfectly into the extension, I guess that's why we do it that way.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Michael Billings

It is a horizontal elbow, in my material, that could be altered if necessary to a vertical upward.  

The knee strike and subsequent buckle should move the opponent backwards, not just bend their knees, so if your dummy is not reacting, you have to execute the upward vertical elbow.  I promise that my knee strike moves them through the Depth dimension and does not JUST bend them over, it also may land on the quadracept of the right leg, checking their body back while streightening the leg.  It still creates distance. 

You may want to play with this to see how it actually works.

Oss


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## Jayson Barley

2. Pivot to your left (to 12 o'clock) into a left forward bow as your left hand pins opponent's right arm to his body and your right thrusting heel of palm strikes to opponent's jaw. 

If you are executing a thrusting heel palm strike to the jaw how are you going to get your hand around behind thier neck for a crane

I learned this technique with a glancing heel palm strike to the right side of the opponents jaw. 

Not trying to offend just understand how you are performing the technique.

Jayson Barley


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## Michael Billings

Glance off the jaw with the fingers pointed outward.  Your hand ends up on the left side of their face.

Execute a right inward 5 finger pivoting claw utilizing the heel of the hand as the pivot point.  (as in windshield wipers)

Then you are able to hook the back of the neck from the correct side of the neck as you understand it.  

Oss!


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Glance off the jaw with the fingers pointed outward.  Your hand ends up on the left side of their face.
> 
> Execute a right inward 5 finger pivoting claw utilizing the heel of the hand as the pivot point.  (as in windshield wipers)
> 
> Then you are able to hook the back of the neck from the correct side of the neck as you understand it.
> 
> Oss! *



No No No. Sleepy but I'll be back when I wake up from this survailence


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## Doc

> Originally posted by jfarnsworth
> I agree 100% that *everyone* should be learning the technique exactly the same. I don't care if it's this country or another one that does Parkers Kenpo.:asian:


That's what you'll find at ALL of our schools. Everyone is taught to execute the same effective way to establish a firm base of the art through black black belt. When guys get together from different schols it doesn't matter because they all have the same understanding. A technique line allows you to see the technique over and over by different people all doingthe same thing. Of course higher ranks do it better but all the same.


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## Michael Billings

Please gimme mo' on Glancing Salute.  I was trying to give a common base from which to work from.  I think he was doing a very early version.  The one I got was from Mr. P in a seminar.  Then concurred with the written curriculum I received later on disk.

Left over Right


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Please gimme mo' on Glancing Salute.  I was trying to give a common base from which to work from.  I think he was doing a very early version.  The one I got was from Mr. P in a seminar.  Then concurred with the written curriculum I received later on disk.
> 
> Left over Right *



Mr. Billings, this is essentially how I was taught by the Kahuna, the Boss, the Master Blaster, the Magician of Motion, Grandmaster Flash, Manoloa, Parker. This is a paste from our curriculum CourseBook #102. I'll answer any questions you may have as best I can but you know it is designed as a guide with an instructor in front of you. I do have a sneeky feeling though you smart guys will have some fun with it.  Speed is not an issue after you survive the initial assault, only control of your opponent is important.

8.  	GLANCING SALUTE:

ATTACK: 12:00. Take two steps. First with your left as you approach and then step forward with your right foot and forcibly push with your right hand across to their right shoulder. Be sure the push is committed transferring your weight to your front foot in anticipation of overcoming the significant resistance of their body mass.

1.  	Standing naturally, when your opponent pushes your right shoulder with his right hand. SURVIVE THE INITIAL ASSAULT  (The force of his push will turn your right shoulder, misalign your hips and cause your right foot to step rearward to regain your balance. When your right foot plants, PAM and pivot your hips forcibly into a modified forward bow toward 3:00 to absorb his energy.) Simultaneously, your right thumb edge of your clenched fists wrist, PINS your opponent's right wrist to the right side of your chest (FITTING PRINCIPLE) as you SLAP-CHECK BAM your left thigh on the side. Maintain your head and chin pointing at your attacker at all times.

STUDY PARTNER: This action will cause all of your weight to be transferred to your forward foot and your right shoulder will be forced slightly to the your left beyond the RADIAL LINE REFERENCE.

2.	Immediately after the above action QUICKTIME execute a left inward vertical forearm strike at a slight upward angle slight above and against the joint of your opponent's right elbow to cause a hyperextension.

STUDY PARTNER: Done properly this action will cause you to stand straight up and on your toes and pull your rear shoulder further beyond the RADIAL LINE REFERENCE, canceling your width. 

PAUSE

3.  	Maintain CONTACT MANIPULATION with your left arm and BRUSH upward to turn the arm slightly. Then pivot to your left toward 12 o'clock and step forward and PAM into a left forward bow with your left hand striking down on his upper forearm with a hammer-fist, and continues to a PIN of your opponent's right arm to your body, and .

STUDY PARTNER: This action will force you to bend forward and jerk your head to your left.

3.	. execute a right thrusting heel palm strike to his right center of jaw, fingers pointed to your left and allow your hand to RICOCHET past your opponent's head rubbing and maintaining CONTACT MANIPULATION with your forearm. Maintain your fingers pointed to the left and tension in your heel-palm.

STUDY PARTNER: This action will cause you to straighten your back and force your head up and back slightly, but your arm is still pinned not allowing your lower body to move back. Additionally the strike to the side of the jaw should cause PMD and significantly stun you.

STOP PAUSE

4. Then HOOK/STRIKE the back of his neck, and control your opponent's height by ANCHORING your right elbow in front and against his chest, while executing a right knee strike to your opponent's lower centerline. Do not allow your opponent to bend forward. CONTACT MANIPULATE his depth with your forearm.

STUDY PARTNER: This action will definitely cause you to take at least one step backwards with your right foot because you are misaligned and will attempt to recover your balance.

5.  	Maintain CONTACT MANIPULATION and plant your right foot forward into a right neutral bow with a GRAVITY PAM. 

PAUSE

6.	Maintaining CONTACT MANIPULATION, Push-drag reverse slightly forcing his head to move toward you. Then CONTROL RELEASE and push-drag forward with a right inward elbow strike to your opponent's head or centerline creating a GUIDED COLLISION.

STUDY PARTNER: This action will cause you to move up and back and you should collapse to the ground from misalignment, PMD, and momentum.

7.  	Right front crossover, covering out toward 7:30 and PAM your right foot.

Timing & Breathing Signature: 1  P 2,3 P 45 P 6 C


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Please gimme mo' on Glancing Salute.  I was trying to give a common base from which to work from.  I think he was doing a very early version.  The one I got was from Mr. P in a seminar.  Then concurred with the written curriculum I received later on disk.
> 
> Left over Right *



Mr. Billings, this is essentially how I was taught by the Kahuna, the Boss, the Master Blaster, the Magician of Motion, Grandmaster Flash, Manoloa, Parker. This is a paste from our curriculum CourseBook #102 and is the Default (base) Technique Application. I'll answer any questions you may have as best I can but you know it is designed as a guide with an instructor in front of you. I do have a sneeky feeling though you smart guys will have some fun with it.  Speed is not an issue after you survive the initial assault, only control of your opponent is important.

8.  	GLANCING SALUTE:

ATTACK: 12:00. Take two steps. First with your left as you approach and then step forward with your right foot and forcibly push with your right hand across to their right shoulder. Be sure the push is committed transferring your weight to your front foot in anticipation of overcoming the significant resistance of their body mass.

1.  	Standing naturally, when your opponent pushes your right shoulder with his right hand. SURVIVE THE INITIAL ASSAULT  (The force of his push will turn your right shoulder, misalign your hips and cause your right foot to step rearward to regain your balance. When your right foot plants, PAM and pivot your hips forcibly into a modified forward bow toward 3:00 to absorb his energy.) Simultaneously, your right thumb edge of your clenched fists wrist, PINS your opponent's right wrist to the right side of your chest (FITTING PRINCIPLE) as you SLAP-CHECK BAM your left thigh on the side. Maintain your head and chin pointing at your attacker at all times.

STUDY PARTNER: This action will cause all of your weight to be transferred to your forward foot and your right shoulder will be forced slightly to the your left beyond the RADIAL LINE REFERENCE.

2.	Immediately after the above action QUICKTIME execute a left inward vertical forearm strike at a slight upward angle slight above and against the joint of your opponent's right elbow to cause a hyperextension.

STUDY PARTNER: Done properly this action will cause you to stand straight up and on your toes and pull your rear shoulder further beyond the RADIAL LINE REFERENCE, canceling your width. 

PAUSE

3.  	Maintain CONTACT MANIPULATION with your left arm and BRUSH upward to turn the arm slightly. Then pivot to your left toward 12 o'clock and step forward and PAM into a left forward bow with your left hand striking down on his upper forearm with a hammer-fist, and continues to a PIN of your opponent's right arm to your body, and .

STUDY PARTNER: This action will force you to bend forward and jerk your head to your left.

3.	. execute a right thrusting heel palm strike to his right center of jaw, fingers pointed to your left and allow your hand to RICOCHET past your opponent's head rubbing and maintaining CONTACT MANIPULATION with your forearm. Maintain your fingers pointed to the left and tension in your heel-palm.

STUDY PARTNER: This action will cause you to straighten your back and force your head up and back slightly, but your arm is still pinned not allowing your lower body to move back. Additionally the strike to the side of the jaw should cause PMD and significantly stun you.

STOP PAUSE

4. Then HOOK/STRIKE the back of his neck, and control your opponent's height by ANCHORING your right elbow in front and against his chest, while executing a right knee strike to your opponent's lower centerline. Do not allow your opponent to bend forward. CONTACT MANIPULATE his depth with your forearm.

STUDY PARTNER: This action will definitely cause you to take at least one step backwards with your right foot because you are misaligned and will attempt to recover your balance.

5.  	Maintain CONTACT MANIPULATION and plant your right foot forward into a right neutral bow with a GRAVITY PAM. 

PAUSE

6.	Maintaining CONTACT MANIPULATION, Push-drag reverse slightly forcing his head to move toward you. Then CONTROL RELEASE and push-drag forward with a right inward elbow strike to your opponent's head or centerline creating a GUIDED COLLISION.

STUDY PARTNER: This action will cause you to move up and back and you should collapse to the ground from misalignment, PMD, and momentum.

7.  	Right front crossover, covering out toward 7:30 and PAM your right foot.

Timing & Breathing Signature: 1  P 2,3 P 45 P 6 C


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## Dominic Jones

Hi Dr. Chapél 

I have acouple of questions: :asian:

Why does the attacker step forward with the left before the right foot?  Would the defence change if the attacker just stepped through with their right foot?

On the first move of the defence, from a standing postion, I step through with my left foot into a left neutral bow (pivoting my shoulders to 'ride' the attack).  Do you step back because the attack is too strong?  I find that the stronger the attack, the quicker the turning of my shoulders is, thus feeding my step forward?

Cheers Dominic


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Dominic Jones _
> *Hi Dr. Chapél
> 
> I have acouple of questions: :asian:
> 
> Why does the attacker step forward with the left before the right foot?  Would the defence change if the attacker just stepped through with their right foot?
> *


*

No, but this type of assault is more likely than a push from a static position. Confrontations are dynamic and some are usually forseeable to the aware, but not always. The question has to be asked "if a person was going to come over to you to push you, how would they get there?" Answer: They'd walk and once they were within range they step and push with significant body momentum. If they simply stepped forward the technique would just be easier to perform. 




			On the first move of the defence, from a standing postion, I step through with my left foot into a left neutral bow (pivoting my shoulders to 'ride' the attack).  Do you step back because the attack is too strong?  I find that the stronger the attack, the quicker the turning of my shoulders is, thus feeding my step forward?
		
Click to expand...


The attack is a push not an "attempted push" that you can "ride." If you can step forward than you're moving prematurely and anticipating. 

Try practicing with your eyes closed to simulate a surprise push you didn't see coming. That will change your mind about stepping forward.*


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *That's what you'll find at ALL of our schools. Everyone is taught to execute the same effective way to establish a firm base of the art through black black belt. When guys get together from different schols it doesn't matter because they all have the same understanding. A technique line allows you to see the technique over and over by different people all doingthe same thing. Of course higher ranks do it better but all the same. *




And this will stop most of all of the bichering. :asian: :asian: :asian:


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## Dominic Jones

Thank you Dr Chapel



> Originally posted by Doc
> The attack is a push not an "attempted push" that you can "ride." If you can step forward than you're moving prematurely and anticipating.



Yes, I was anticipating and moving early.   But isn`t this essential?

I can see in "Glancing Salute" that if you do not anticipate and move early then, to survive the initial assault , you should step back.

However if you don`t move early enougth and get hit by a punch, it could be difficult to survive that attack.  For example in "Sleeper", the attack is a right punch.  The defence involves stepping up to a left neutral bow similiarly to "Glancing Salute"

Do we teach our students to improve their reaction time so that they can anticipate and step towards the attack.  Or do you consider this to be unrealistic?

Cheers Dominic :asian:


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Dominic Jones _
> *Thank you Dr Chapel
> Yes, I was anticipating and moving early.   But isn`t this essential?
> *


*
Only if you're practicing "attempted pushes." And then you won't know what to do when you actually get pushed.



			I can see in "Glancing Salute" that if you do not anticipate and move early then, to survive the initial assault , you should step back.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly, and not by choice. That is how he is affecting your body. Now the question is what do we do "after" it happens. The very nature of the attack means we react AFTER the attack, not during.



			However if you don`t move early enougth and get hit by a punch, it could be difficult to survive that attack.
		
Click to expand...

A punch is not a push. If you were to anticpate a push and treat it as a punch, there would be no difference between the two attacks. Let's just train for a punch to the shoulder.



			For example in "Sleeper", the attack is a right punch.  The defence involves stepping up to a left neutral bow similiarly to "Glancing Salute"
		
Click to expand...

No they are not similar at all unless that is what you choose to do, which in my opinion would be a big mistake.



			Do we teach our students to improve their reaction time so that they can anticipate and step towards the attack.  Or do you consider this to be unrealistic?
		
Click to expand...

What are you training for? There is no correlation between a punch and a push. A push  must be absorbed because by definition it is something that has already happened. How quick were your reactions when your eyes were closed and you didn't know when it was coming? Weren't you forced to step back? Well that's what happens when you get pushed. If you choose to react to a push as if it were a punch, then you're not training to handle a push. Practicing to anticipate and "ride" is fine and not a bad thing, but what happens when you aren't ready and you get pushed when you're not looking? When do you train for that? Or are you one of those people who is always on guard?

There are distinctions between assaults that are directed in your direction, and those that affect you physically before you can counter. Do you do the same with a headlock, wrist grab, bear-hug, etc? Do you move before he grabs you? If you do then you're doing what most have been taught in commercial Kenpo because the mechanisms to extricate yourself or Survive The Initial Assaultare not a part of the art. For that matter the attacks are not even a part of the art. "Twisted Twig" is a good example. Were you taught how to attack with a wrist flex and throw or take him down, or does he just hand you his hand and then move before you can grab it well? You can't learn the defense if the offense isn't realistic. You'll never learn to block punches until somebody really tries to hit you. You'll never learn to deal with pushes if you move before you're actually pushed. It's your call, but don't lie to yourself, because sooner or later you may catch yourself being dishonest and it tends to be painful. Jedi Parker proved that to me long ago in a galaxy far far away where the resistance was coming together for a last assault on the death star and he ......

Wait a minute, I seem to have lost my train of thought. Age you know.*


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Only if you're practicing "attempted pushes." And then you won't know what to do when you actually get pushed.*



Sir,
Would it be your opinion then to practice techniques stepping backward as well as stepping forward? 



> The very nature of the attack means we react AFTER the attack, not during.



Now this is a good analogy.  Many times over we practice techniques by just saying; ok, were going to do ...... then we react in the technique line. Anticipating if you will. How could in street altercation would one know whether to do Glancing Salute or Triggered Salute? How would one know specifically if it's going to be a cross shoulder push or a direct? How about a center chest push:idunno: Of course then there's the push that's set up for an immediate punch. You may not specifically agree with the "what if" phase but  if someone were to half heartedly execute a right push (or fake push), then move directly into a left cross we may have gotten punched by trying to pull off "I think I should do Glancing Salute" here.

Just a personal question here but do you consider the first move of Flashing Mace and Glancing Salute related? I understand that the mechanics are slightly different but as the entry move to F.M. being for a live hand technique then G.S. is a semi-live technique. G.S. we have a little bit of time for the trap settle in neutral bow and then hyperextension on the elbow whereas F.M. the first move is more explosive.

Another question or more; 
in one of your previous posts you talked about this tech. being in your curriculum 102. Do you consider your yellow 101, orange 102 and so forth? Then in turn when a student moves up in rank does the curriculum become 201, 202 and so on? If I'm not mistaken you may have posted on here or in the article you wrote you spoke of actually 5 levels in your curriculum. If that is the case does the student have to learn, refine, and understand the course curriculum from 101 - ?, 201 - ?, 301 - ?, 401 - ?, and 501 -?; so in turn by reaching the fifth level they have gone through all of this material 5 times over again?

Alright at the moment I think I'm out of questions.


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Sir,
> Would it be your opinion then to practice techniques stepping backward as well as stepping forward?
> *


*
Well sir that's a general question that demands a specific answer, therefore my answer is - it depends on many factors speciifc to the assaut itself. In the case of the push however the  answer is absolutely not.  When you are pushed you are already affected when you respond.



			Now this is a good analogy.  Many times over we practice techniques by just saying; ok, were going to do ...... then we react in the technique line. Anticipating if you will. How could in street altercation would one know whether to do Glancing Salute or Triggered Salute? How would one know specifically if it's going to be a cross shoulder push or a direct?
		
Click to expand...

Because it has already happened. Commercial Kenpo has people moving prematurely on these kind of assaults therefore it is difficult to conceive anything else. I don't allow  it because I teach the proper  mechanisms to  SIA (Survive the InitialAssault)



			How about a center chest push:
		
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Sam Ting



			idunno: Of course then there's the push that's set up for an immediate punch. You may not specifically agree with the "what if" phase but  if someone were to half heartedly execute a right push (or fake push), then move directly into a left cross we may have gotten punched by trying to pull off "I think I should do Glancing Salute" here.
		
Click to expand...

Only if you react to what hasn't happened yet.



			Just a personal question here but do you consider the first move of Flashing Mace and Glancing Salute related?
		
Click to expand...

No.



			I understand that the mechanics are slightly different but as the entry move to F.M. being for a live hand technique then G.S. is a semi-live technique. G.S. we have a little bit of time for the trap settle in neutral bow and then hyperextension on the elbow whereas F.M. the first move is more explosive.
		
Click to expand...

There is no corellation between the techniques whatsoever.



			Another question or more; 
in one of your previous posts you talked about this tech. being in your curriculum 102. Do you consider your yellow 101, orange 102 and so forth? Then in turn when a student moves up in rank does the curriculum become 201, 202 and so on? If I'm not mistaken you may have posted on here or in the article you wrote you spoke of actually 5 levels in your curriculum. If that is the case does the student have to learn, refine, and understand the course curriculum from 101 - ?, 201 - ?, 301 - ?, 401 - ?, and 501 -?; so in turn by reaching the fifth level they have gone through all of this material 5 times over again?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, that is correct sir. Green is 105. brown  begins at 201 and black is 301. when the 101 material is revisted as a black belt the first time it becomes 2101, the third 3101, etc.*


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Yes, that is correct sir. Green is 105. brown  begins at 201 and black is 301. when the 101 material is revisted as a black belt the first time it becomes 2101, the third 3101, etc. *



Very cool idea. Relearning and refining are priorities. That's very interesting to see your ideas behind your curriculum.:asian:


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Very cool idea. Relearning and refining are priorities. That's very interesting to see your ideas behind your curriculum.:asian: *


I find that it is quite functional. The goals and focus are different  for each level. The first time the focus is on functional basic skills and  body mechanics along with basic theory of applications. A student must make the Default Technique functional first and foremost and thereby lays a foundation of an inflexible  functional curriculum to black forcing extreme competence. So you might say the first level is about the huge vocabulary of basics, how and the many ways they interact with each other, and making them work in a realistic stressful environment.

At the second level when each Default Technique is studied again, the aggression level is raised and all assaults become   multiple. That is the stakes are raised and the emphasis is to take the previous vocabulary and basics and expand their applications without venturing significantly outside of the previously learned mechanism for a specific assault. ie. Sword and Hammer at first level is a flank close shoulder grab. At the second level it is a close shoulder grab with a right punch. If the previous lesson was learned well, then the technique will still work and the additional punch poses no problem because of the  base methodology learned.

The third level is where all your previous skills and training come together so lengthy execution should no longer be a reality. A student should now be capable of utilizing the first one or two moves of their original Default technique to conclude and assault.  In some cases the block itself should end it, in others the first strike should because now your level of precision and reactions are so fined tuned,  understanding how, why and actually precisely hitting nerve cavities properly should not be a problem. ie. Sword and Hammer's first move should be a nerve strike to the centerline conclusion.

At the fourth go around the emphasis shifts competely to nerve, activations and manipulations off of the same Default Techniques with a "stunning" first move and now a concluding manipulation that also utilizes cavity presses with possible additional nerve strikes interspersed within the sequence as you desire. ie. Sword and hammer  becomes (at your descretion) "stun and controlled takedown and a pin." The level of severity of the destruction is modulated by you so you may borrow from every previous level of your study, mixing your responses as you see fit at the time.

Thus curriculum is wholly inflexible  for a great deal of your study as it should be. You are being taught many things and you cannot have significant flexibility and personal preference until your foundation is learned well enough to do so. When you are young with have a limited vocabulary you have difficulty expresing yourself. As your vocabulary grows so does your ability to express your feelings. But it is not until you have matured and been exposed to many words and their proper usage do you become extemporaneously articulate. You can force a ten year old  to read the dictionary and attempt to know every word and its definition. It will not make him articulate without the experience of time and proper usage which will take years. Along the way he may pick up some words and use them well, but he will not be fluent no matter how much you pile on him.. "Let time be your measurement to skill and knowledge." - Ed Parker.

Thus the goal is to  lay a functional curriculum that all students share and there is a specific "right and wrong" to everything. No tailoring, no personal preferences, no re-arrangement, etc. All that you need is taught in the curriculum as it should be used  in proper context as your abc's are. Then slowly you expand and begin to see how these things fit together and can create new expressions with the same old letters.  Then when you are  significantly knowledgeable and skilled, than you make flex your extemporaneous muscles within the context of now proven concepts and learned limitations to that flexibility.

The curriculum is the same no matter which student you talk to. A technique line has each student performing the technique the same as everyone else, thus students and teachers alike can truly help each other. Only through this methodology is a true foundation available to keep the art alive. Questions may be asked and one strict answered given.

And every year as the staff becomes more knowledgeable, I raise the stakes and incorporate more information at level one and all the levels rise proportionately. Those who teach are responsible for these refinements at all levels below them. Those who do not remain, competent where they are. Thus some older higher ranks who are satisfied with their level are eventually surpassed by lower rank and younger students who contiue to be envolved in the continuing education process. 

There fore it would not be unusual for a green belt to explain current information to a black belt who has not studied and kept pace with lower material. It forces everyone to respect everyone else regardless of rank. No one can dismiss anyone because the knowledge is spread throughout the student body. Like any good university, you may stop or leave, but your major continues to grow and change with the times and improve. I wonder what those that got their MBA before the internet think of e-commerce. Of course I guess they would have to go back to school to find out about it to keep that MBA current.

Now that is what Parker meant by "evolving." Changing the art isn't evolution, it's just changing. Something that motion based kenpo is supposed to do anyway for the benefit of the individual student, and not for betterment of the Art Curriculum. There is a journey, but you have a guide to keep you going in the right direction. All exploration is within yourself. You ay rummage through a dictionary and "discover" a new word, but it won't give you an encyclopedia understanding without a teacher.

Remember this : Motion based kenpo is all about the students quick skills, and there is nothing wrong with that and what it was designed for. My mission is to preserve an art, evolve and make skillful students too. And that creates mandates that don't work in the average commercial studio environment. Just different.


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## Michael Billings

I did not want to neglect thanking you for posting "Glancing Salute."  I have been in the midst of moving my office, and unloading a storage stall for home, plus doing some physical therapy for my recent ankle surgery.  A result is I have not been on line nearly as much as in the past, none-the-less, I did not want you to think I did not appreciate your post or this thread.  As always, thanks for sharing.

Yours in Kenpo


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## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *8.  	GLANCING SALUTE:
> 
> ATTACK: 12:00. Take two steps. First with your left as you approach and then step forward with your right foot and forcibly push with your right hand across to their right shoulder. Be sure the push is committed transferring your weight to your front foot in anticipation of overcoming the significant resistance of their body mass.
> 
> 1.  	Standing naturally, when your opponent pushes your right shoulder with his right hand. SURVIVE THE INITIAL ASSAULT  (The force of his push will turn your right shoulder, misalign your hips and cause your right foot to step rearward to regain your balance. When your right foot plants, PAM and pivot your hips forcibly into a modified forward bow toward 3:00 to absorb his energy.) Simultaneously, your right thumb edge of your clenched fists wrist, PINS your opponent's right wrist to the right side of your chest (FITTING PRINCIPLE) as you SLAP-CHECK BAM your left thigh on the side. Maintain your head and chin pointing at your attacker at all times.
> 
> STUDY PARTNER: This action will cause all of your weight to be transferred to your forward foot and your right shoulder will be forced slightly to the your left beyond the RADIAL LINE REFERENCE.
> 
> 2.	Immediately after the above action QUICKTIME execute a left inward vertical forearm strike at a slight upward angle slight above and against the joint of your opponent's right elbow to cause a hyperextension.
> 
> STUDY PARTNER: Done properly this action will cause you to stand straight up and on your toes and pull your rear shoulder further beyond the RADIAL LINE REFERENCE, canceling your width.
> 
> PAUSE
> 
> 3.  	Maintain CONTACT MANIPULATION with your left arm and BRUSH upward to turn the arm slightly. Then pivot to your left toward 12 o'clock and step forward and PAM into a left forward bow with your left hand striking down on his upper forearm with a hammer-fist, and continues to a PIN of your opponent's right arm to your body, and .
> 
> STUDY PARTNER: This action will force you to bend forward and jerk your head to your left.
> 
> 3.	. execute a right thrusting heel palm strike to his right center of jaw, fingers pointed to your left and allow your hand to RICOCHET past your opponent's head rubbing and maintaining CONTACT MANIPULATION with your forearm. Maintain your fingers pointed to the left and tension in your heel-palm.
> 
> STUDY PARTNER: This action will cause you to straighten your back and force your head up and back slightly, but your arm is still pinned not allowing your lower body to move back. Additionally the strike to the side of the jaw should cause PMD and significantly stun you.
> 
> STOP PAUSE
> 
> 4. Then HOOK/STRIKE the back of his neck, and control your opponent's height by ANCHORING your right elbow in front and against his chest, while executing a right knee strike to your opponent's lower centerline. Do not allow your opponent to bend forward. CONTACT MANIPULATE his depth with your forearm.
> 
> STUDY PARTNER: This action will definitely cause you to take at least one step backwards with your right foot because you are misaligned and will attempt to recover your balance.
> 
> 5.  	Maintain CONTACT MANIPULATION and plant your right foot forward into a right neutral bow with a GRAVITY PAM.
> 
> PAUSE
> 
> 6.	Maintaining CONTACT MANIPULATION, Push-drag reverse slightly forcing his head to move toward you. Then CONTROL RELEASE and push-drag forward with a right inward elbow strike to your opponent's head or centerline creating a GUIDED COLLISION.
> 
> STUDY PARTNER: This action will cause you to move up and back and you should collapse to the ground from misalignment, PMD, and momentum.
> 
> 7.  	Right front crossover, covering out toward 7:30 and PAM your right foot.
> 
> Timing & Breathing Signature: 1  P 2,3 P 45 P 6 C *



What I've gathered from this written version is PAM is another word for AND.   If you step back with the right AND then stomp or PAM with the left (and I'm assuming that's what you meant) as you wrote tells me this.    Also the fact that by stepping back you teach a built in misconception of the attack.   The idea to me is that you percieve the attack slightly before the push which will engage the forward movement of the left leg.    Should you step back with this attack, the technique of Attacking Mace comes to mind or some other extemporaneous version of the many I've learned.     In a heightened adrenal state you should be aware (the eight considerations of combat) of the actions happening to you, not to close your eyes and wait for a push.      To teach it this way robs the student of the perception of action IMHO.    Would you care to go into this more?


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I did not want to neglect thanking you for posting "Glancing Salute."  I have been in the midst of moving my office, and unloading a storage stall for home, plus doing some physical therapy for my recent ankle surgery.  A result is I have not been on line nearly as much as in the past, none-the-less, I did not want you to think I did not appreciate your post or this thread.  As always, thanks for sharing.
> 
> Yours in Kenpo *


Mr. Billings I would think so such thing..


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## Doc

> What I've gathered from this written version is PAM is another word for AND.



No Mr. OBriant, it is not. I usually hesitate to post technique descriptions from our curriculum because they contain phrases, mechanisms, and concepts that may be confusing or misunderstood. The information is designed to be augmented by physical interaction with competent instructions.



> If you step back with the right AND then stomp or PAM with the left (and I'm assuming that's what you meant)



Im sorry but you seemed to have misread that.



> Also the fact that by stepping back you teach a built in misconception of the attack.



No I disagree, the misconception is someone can always anticipate any assault.



> The idea to me is that you percieve the attack slightly before the push which will engage the forward movement of the left leg.



I understand that, and I addressed that in previous posts. The idea that YOU perceive the attack before it occurs is a motion concept taught by many that I do not subscribe to. From my perspective, it is a very large assumption that in my opinion makes the assault no different than a punch like attack.



> Should you step back with this attack, the technique of Attacking Mace comes to mind or some other extemporaneous version of the many I've learned.



I have no doubt you have many variations that you may perform. I know your teacher very well and he is indeed talented but conceptually teaches different than I. Multiple variations prevent the establishment of a specific way to examine the model of the assault.



> In a heightened adrenal state you should be aware (the eight considerations of combat) of the actions happening to you,



This is another assumption. No one is in a heightened adrenal state all the time. To assume otherwise is a false assumption, in our philosophy.



> not to close your eyes and wait for a push.



I never suggested someone should close their eyes to wait to be pushed, except as a training aid to the poster who was doing as you suggested and anticipating the push and was (as I see it) moving prematurely apparently as you do as well. I wanted him to experience what happens when you cant anticipate the push.

It is ludicrous to wait to be pushed in an actual encounter if you are aware of an impending assault. Proper training, in my opinion should address the distinct possibility of being caught unaware in the real world. Anything else is an attempted push. I have previously stated motion-based Kenpo deals in attempts in areas where SubLevel Four Kenpo does not.

Oddly enough the latest issue of SWAT Magazine has a story on Special Forces Training. Part of their training as stated in the story, is to close the eyes for some attacks so they cannot be anticipated, and therefore force them to react to circumstances. It is only in this manner that you can train for the unanticipated.



> To teach it this way robs the student of the perception of action IMHO.



Conversely, in my opinion, to teach in the manner you subscribe to will deny the student the opportunity to react effectively to an actual push. We differ in that my definition of a push is something that has already happened and should NOT be anticipated or in the progress of happening. 

With all the striking assaults, students have a significant number of opportunities to react to, and experience the perception of action as taught in motion kenpo. This is simply a philosophical difference between two very diverse interpretations of the art. Neither is right or wrong, only different and those who successfully subscribe to the philosophy of your teacher have no reason to do anything else. 

However I was not taught that way by Mr. Parker, and it is one of many discords between the philosophy of his motion based commercial art and the SubLevel Four kenpo Curriculum, that I accept. Most of what Ive said was addressed in previous posts on this string and others. Beyond that, I simply can and do choose to agree to disagree vehemently.


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## ProfessorKenpo

Would you care to go a bit more indepth on your idea of PAMing,   Maybe I misunderstood the concept?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Would you care to go a bit more indepth on your idea of PAMing,   Maybe I misunderstood the concept?
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> 
> Clyde *


A PAM is a mechanism sir utilized to create structural integrity when the body moves into a naturally "disassociated mode." (I have written the beginning of a paper on this subject and it is availble on Jason Bugg's site). Unfortunately it is something that must be taught, and it is circumstantially dedicated. It stands for, (in this case) Platform Aligning Mechanism. Those who have come to visit seem to be impressed with a simple demo of how it can work.

The larger issue in this particular technique is how we, as teachers, conceptually present and teach a particular assault. We have a larger responsibility that goes well beyond our own personal skill and capabilities to convey information of the most benefit to students. 

Punches are taught as you correctly stated, to be "anticipated" because we are "reacting" to an "in progress" assault from greater distance or range. Pushes tend to come from a much closer distance because the assailant has been allowed inside our personal space for various reasons. But I still maintain a push, by definition, has already occured, and the term as I was taught does not define an in progress action or event.

But I do understand where you're coming from and why. Thank you sir for your interaction.


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## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *A PAM is a mechanism sir utilized to create structural integrity when the body moves into a naturally "disassociated mode." (I have written the beginning of a paper on this subject and it is availble on Jason Bugg's site). Unfortunately it is something that must be taught, and it is circumstantially dedicated. It stands for, (in this case) Platform Aligning Mechanism. Those who have come to visit seem to be impressed with a simple demo of how it can work.
> 
> The larger issue in this particular technique is how we, as teachers, conceptually present and teach a particular assault. We have a larger responsibility that goes well beyond our own personal skill and capabilities to convey information of the most benefit to students.
> 
> Punches are taught as you correctly stated, to be "anticipated" because we are "reacting" to an "in progress" assault from greater distance or range. Pushes tend to come from a much closer distance because the assailant has been allowed inside our personal space for various reasons. But I still maintain a push, by definition, has already occured, and the term as I was taught does not define an in progress action or event.
> 
> But I do understand where you're coming from and why. Thank you sir for your interaction. *




OK, got that but can you describe what PAMing is without showing it.   I was shown A version of it and ran some initial  blind tests to prove or disprove the theory.     As of yet I've discovered it doesn't work, but I may be doing it wrong.    I get the slap ck principle (I believe you call it BAMing), Larry is well known for that and has passed it down to his underlings.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *OK, got that but can you describe what PAMing is without showing it.   I was shown A version of it and ran some initial  blind tests to prove or disprove the theory.     As of yet I've discovered it doesn't work, but I may be doing it wrong.    I get the slap ck principle (I believe you call it BAMing), Larry is well known for that and has passed it down to his underlings.
> 
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> 
> Clyde *


Sir, the reason it is only referenced and not explained in our coursebooks, is because it is designed to be explained and taught in context of it's immediate application by an instructor. Everything is activity dedicated.

Perhaps Larry would be the best one to show it to you because he would be capable of putting it in context with his teaching philosophy, and explain how its relationship with BAM is used in his interpretation, which is different from mine. 

There is probably some misunderstandings as well because the terminology was created by me from my conversations with and notes from Mr. Parker.


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## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Sir, the reason it is only referenced and not explained in our coursebooks, is because it is designed to be explained and taught in context of it's immediate application by an instructor. Everything is activity dedicated.
> 
> Perhaps Larry would be the best one to show it to you because he would be capable of putting it in context with his teaching philosophy, and explain how its relationship with BAM is used in his interpretation, which is different from mine.
> 
> There is probably some misunderstandings as well because the terminology was created by me from my conversations with and notes from Mr. Parker. *



OK

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *OK
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> 
> Clyde *


Once again thanks for the interaction, sorry I couldn't do more over the  forum.


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## Dominic Jones

> Originally posted by Doc
> Punches are taught as you correctly stated, to be "anticipated" because we are "reacting" to an "in progress" assault from greater distance or range. Pushes tend to come from a much closer distance because the assailant has been allowed inside our personal space for various reasons. But I still maintain a push, by definition, has already occured, and the term as I was taught does not define an in progress action or event.



Thank you Doc.  I think your above quote answers my previous question about anticipating attacks.



> Originally posted by Dominic
> However if you don`t move early enougth and get hit by a punch, it could be difficult to survive that attack.



Cheers Dominic:asian:


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Dominic Jones _
> *Thank you Doc.  I think your above quote answers my previous question about anticipating attacks.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers Dominic:asian: *



No, I thank you. I love these discussions.  A punch is something that can be thrown without contact. A push by definition describes and action that has already taken place and requires contact.


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## Touch Of Death

First of all I have no clue what PAM is but I get the gist of what you are trying to accomplish. We approach the problem you suggest by eliminating the "natural stance" that is we use the cycle of considerations to suggest that an attack could come from anyone so we act accordingly. I'm not saying we square off with everyone we see ( but perhaps we do mentaly) I look at it as sort of a game and although my feet are toguether or slightly apart, I've already chosen my lead leg and my hands are already innocently enough where they need to be. I must admit my eyes were glazing over with the vague descriptions or detailed descriptions for that matter. I would like to see and feel that PAM Idea though. maybe someday. The bottom line with what we are doing is to make as many choices before the attack as possible. I'll quit babbling now.


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## Doc

This post is in response to a private message I received regarding "slapchecks," and a request that I respond publicly.

In the beginning when Ed Parker Sr. began teaching Kenpo from the strict Chinese perspective, and before he began the transition to motion based Kenpo, the Slap-Check was a natural component of the art. Old film of Parker will show he rountinely "slap-checked" in all his executions in the early sixties. In the Chinese Arts, the Slap-Check (or Pak Sao at it is called in Wing Chun) is used essentially as it was used by Ed Parker Sr. in th beginning. Its other related concepts are Lop-Sao (blocking hand), and the Chi-Sao (sticking hand). Most in motion Kenpo are unaware of its existence and only a few attempt to mimic its use, but are unaware of how it actually is used or its many functions. 

The reason for the lack of knowledge for such a important part of American Kenpo comes from Mr. Parkers decision to begin, by personal preference and necessity, to teach a motion based concept. This motion component does not utilize the Slap-Check/Pak Sao and was actually purposely abandoned by Mr. Parker in his teachings in the early sixties, in favor of a more interpretive and less strict in-formal style of Kenpo, which emphasized his written Positional Checks, over "Slap-check Theory, and its multiple functions. 

Unfortunately, even then and now, students of Ed Parker attempted to mimic Mr. Parkers use of the Slap-Check. Their early misunderstanding is the origin of the term slap art used by "traditionalist" of the time. Some of the traditionalist didnt understand it, right along with Ed Parkers students who attempted to mimic their teacher, and misapplied it by "slapping" all over the place. Slapping the leg repeated in sparring became fairly commonplace at the time. 

Although some accidently ocassionally getting it right, without the understanding of this modern tool of American Kenpo, it is possible to do as much harm to yourself as your opponent, and impossible to development consistency because of its many sub-categories of execution.

Some made fun of Ed Parker students even though they respected Ed Parker himself. Mr. Parker never taught it to his students, nor is it included in any of his so-called definitive writings.  He never explained its use and would only suggest if asked, It helps your timing. There are some who still mimic Ed Parker, but really have no understanding of its use, and in fact, I have actually seen it used it in a negative fashion by slapping for sound effects or simply to mimic what they have seen.

But the term Slap-check as I use it is a very broad and general term that has many subcategories of more specific definitions and uses. Its use with proper body mechanics can generate and move energy, align the body properly in ways and places not easily understood, and it also has some obvious physical mechanics of execution.

Also, every positive effect you may generate for yourself will have a negative impact and effect on your opponent if performed correctly. The how, when, what and why are all a part of SubLevel Four Kenpo Curriculum. In the beginning you learn mechanically how, and when to develop their proper timing and execution in every Default technique sequence. Later you begin to understand what you do has an effect on everything else you do and finally why. There is no part of your body that you can move that doesnt have a significant effect on another part of your anatomy. Positive or negative simply depends.


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## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *This post is in response to a private message I received regarding "slapchecks," and a request that I respond publicly.
> 
> In the beginning when Ed Parker Sr. began teaching Kenpo from the strict Chinese perspective, and before he began the transition to motion based Kenpo, the Slap-Check was a natural component of the art. Old film of Parker will show he rountinely "slap-checked" in all his executions in the early sixties.
> 
> Most in motion Kenpo are unaware of its existence and only a few attempt to mimic its use, but are unaware of how it actually is used or its many functions.
> 
> The reason for the lack of knowledge for such a important part of American Kenpo comes from Mr. Parkers decision to begin, by personal preference and necessity, to teach a motion based concept. This motion component does not utilize the Slap-Check/Pak Sao and was actually purposely abandoned by Mr. Parker in his teachings in the early sixties, in favor of a more interpretive and less strict in-formal style of Kenpo, which emphasized his written Positional Checks, over "Slap-check Theory, and its multiple functions.
> 
> Unfortunately, even then and now, students of Ed Parker attempted to mimic Mr. Parkers use of the Slap-Check. Their early misunderstanding is the origin of the term slap art used by "traditionalist" of the time. Some of the traditionalist didnt understand it, right along with Ed Parkers students who attempted to mimic their teacher, and misapplied it by "slapping" all over the place. Slapping the leg repeated in sparring became fairly commonplace at the time.
> 
> Although some accidently ocassionally getting it right, without the understanding of this modern tool of American Kenpo, it is possible to do as much harm to yourself as your opponent, and impossible to development consistency because of its many sub-categories of execution.
> 
> Some made fun of Ed Parker students even though they respected Ed Parker himself. Mr. Parker never taught it to his students, nor is it included in any of his so-called definitive writings.  He never explained its use and would only suggest if asked, It helps your timing. There are some who still mimic Ed Parker, but really have no understanding of its use, and in fact, I have actually seen it used it in a negative fashion by slapping for sound effects or simply to mimic what they have seen.
> 
> But the term Slap-check as I use it is a very broad and general term that has many subcategories of more specific definitions and uses. Its use with proper body mechanics can generate and move energy, align the body properly in ways and places not easily understood, and it also has some obvious physical mechanics of execution.
> 
> Also, every positive effect you may generate for yourself will have a negative impact and effect on your opponent if performed correctly. The how, when, what and why are all a part of SubLevel Four Kenpo Curriculum. In the beginning you learn mechanically how, and when to develop their proper timing and execution in every Default technique sequence. Later you begin to understand what you do has an effect on everything else you do and finally why. There is no part of your body that you can move that doesnt have a significant effect on another part of your anatomy. Positive or negative simply depends. *



Doc,

I agree with some of what you said, particularly the idea that SGM Parker didn't create this apparently old chinese concept. I found an interesting article that gives another perspective on what SL-4 calls "slap checking".

http://www.eurekainternalarts.com/publications/news2.html 

One question I have that probably isn't for this forum is in the realm of "Slap-check Theory" how many different versions of slap checks are there? Have you defined them by purpose and application? Both good and bad? Being the researcher you are I'm guessing the answer is yes. Have you written any academic text on the subject beyond the surface stuff that you'd be willing to share?

jb:asian:


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Doc,
> 
> I agree with some of what you said, particularly the idea that SGM Parker didn't create this apparently old chinese concept. I found an interesting article that gives another perspective on what SL-4 calls "slap checking".
> 
> http://www.eurekainternalarts.com/publications/news2.html
> 
> One question I have that probably isn't for this forum is in the realm of "Slap-check Theory" how many different versions of slap checks are there? Have you defined them by purpose and application? Both good and bad? Being the researcher you are I'm guessing the answer is yes. Have you written any academic text on the subject beyond the surface stuff that you'd be willing to share?
> 
> jb:asian: *


Yes I have identified more than a dozen. Some are physically pretty obvious like contributions to "Directional Harmony," whereas others are more intrinsically internal energy based applications. And of course they can manifest themselves positive or negative, with regard to you or your opponent.  So the number of applications can grow significantly.

I have been writing on the subject quite a bit, but it is more difficult when it comes to the internal. Black Belt asked for an article but making it "make sense" is not easy in pragmatic terms. 

The Chinese would use flowery language metaphors to describe what is difficult to write otherwise, and now I see "why." "The Crane unleashes an exploding wing" sounds great but what does it mean? It is indeed difficult to codify why a backfist snycronous with an attendent "slapcheck" on the appropriate part of the body creates an "energy surge" that magnifies its effectiveness. Or why a "slapcheck" on the wrong part of your body can have such a disruptive effect on your own energy and make you susceptible to your opponents offensive strikes.

I am still writing and although some applications are difficult to describe in terms of physics, there is no denying it is real and quite effective in proper application. But like everything else, it is "situationally dedicated" making verbalization difficult and demonstrations paramount. 

This is also why I say the knowledge is almost non-existent. The Chinese didn't really pass it to anyone but "family" and even then it was difficult. The fact it didn't survive outside the Chinese Culture in other martial arts is not surprizing. All they ever passed was the "Busbishi" which outlined the Five element Theory or Dim Mak, but never gave any additional clues as to "how." The index of certain information was hidden in Okinawa Kata but real applcations were not included. 

Ed Parker emphasized the "how" over the "why." (Which he was still working on) He would say, "which one is more important?" If you spent all your time on trying to understand "why" something exists and function, you would have no time left to  learn "how." 

He said, "You can't learn to be the scholar and warrior at the same time." (That is an anomoly he himself created in motion based kenpo.) "Everyone talks about 'why' but very few can actually teach you 'how.' They've got it backwards" because they never learned 'how' themselves.

That was an interesting article and I noticed he too had to resort to metaphors and subjective language. Something I dislike. I like firm definitions, and I guess that's why Im still working on that one. But at least I know I can show you "how."

We had an exam today and we have three new green belts who passed their course. Man they were awesome, and the body mechanics exhibited were exemplary. One over forty, and the other well over fifty.

The truth is in you, but somebody has got to teach it. You can't find it on your own.

Thanks JB. Intelligent,  thought provoking, and informative as usual.


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Yes I have identified more than a dozen. Some are physically pretty obvious like contributions to "Directional Harmony," whereas others are more intrinsically internal energy based applications.
> 
> Black Belt asked for an article but making it "make sense" is not easy in pragmatic terms.
> 
> It is indeed difficult to codify why a backfist snycronous with an attendent "slapcheck" on the appropriate part of the body creates an "energy surge" that magnifies its effectiveness. Or why a "slapcheck" on the wrong part of your body can have such a disruptive effect on your own energy and make you susceptible to your opponents offensive strikes.
> 
> I am still writing and although some applications are difficult to describe in terms of physics, there is no denying it is real and quite effective in proper application. But like everything else, it is "situationally dedicated" making verbalization difficult and demonstrations paramount.
> 
> The index of certain information was hidden in Okinawa Kata but real applcations were not included.
> 
> Ed Parker emphasized the "how" over the "why." (Which he was still working on) He would say, "which one is more important?" If you spent all your time on trying to understand "why" something exists and function, you would have no time left to  learn "how."
> 
> He said, "You can't learn to be the scholar and warrior at the same time." (That is an anomoly he himself created in motion based kenpo.) "Everyone talks about 'why' but very few can actually teach you 'how.' They've got it backwards" because they never learned 'how' themselves.
> 
> That was an interesting article and I noticed he too had to resort to metaphors and subjective language. Something I dislike. I like firm definitions, and I guess that's why Im still working on that one. But at least I know I can show you "how."
> 
> The truth is in you, but somebody has got to teach it. You can't find it on your own.
> 
> Thanks JB. Intelligent,  thought provoking, and informative as usual. *



Doc,

Most wouldn't have bothered to say they had "identified more than..." they would just say ancient chinese secret or gotta pay to play (and probably not really know themselves). I've always appreciated that about you..If you ever do figure out a way to convey the various applications of "slapcheck theory" into words I'd be very interested in reading it. 

jb:asian: 

p.s. Got a reply email from Marty M. the other day. He has really done really well for himself in the business world, executive VP and co-founder. That balance is a hard thing to achieve (still working on it), most (not all) just focus on one of the other with amazing, disasterous or mediocre results. I always thought he was very good at the SL-4 system based on what I saw on video and our one meeting. Maybe he'll come back to active training one day...


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Doc,
> 
> Most wouldn't have bothered to say they had "identified more than..." they would just say ancient chinese secret or gotta pay to play (and probably not really know themselves). I've always appreciated that about you..If you ever do figure out a way to convey the various applications of "slapcheck theory" into words I'd be very interested in reading it.
> 
> jb:asian:
> 
> p.s. Got a reply email from Marty M. the other day. He has really done really well for himself in the business world, executive VP and co-founder. That balance is a hard thing to achieve (still working on it), most (not all) just focus on one of the other with amazing, disasterous or mediocre results. I always thought he was very good at the SL-4 system based on what I saw on video and our one meeting. Maybe he'll come back to active training one day... *


For sure.

Yeah I miss Marty, but that is the price you pay when your students are well educated grounded and purposeful people. Some move on because of business and more important life goals that take them geographically from you. If he was still here, he'd still be in the thick of it.

My one conselation is, my students never go to another teacher. They either quit altogether or eventually come back to me.


----------



## teej

Doc, you posted;

ATTACK: 12:00. Take two steps. First with your left as you approach and then step forward with your right foot and forcibly push with your right hand across to their right shoulder. Be sure the push is committed transferring your weight to your front foot in anticipation of overcoming the significant resistance of their body mass.

1. Standing naturally, when your opponent pushes your right shoulder with his right hand. SURVIVE THE INITIAL ASSAULT  (The force of his push will turn your right shoulder, misalign your hips and cause your right foot to step rearward to regain your balance. 

A very interesting perspective. The majority of posts I read here have the standard being taught of stepping forward with the left leg. I was taught the same way. The difference seems to be the intent of the attacker. If your attacker really steps in with intent and follow through, if you are able to step forward, (again the attacker stepped in hard, fast causing his arm to push past you as you pivot) your step forward would probably put you too far up his arm or past it to execute the forearm strike?

Anyway, Doc my question to you is this with the same type of attack with intent that you described, how would that affect Triggered Salute?  If the attacker attacks the same way you described, 2 steps really hitting you with his push, but with a straight shoulder push, were you taught to step forward with your right or back with your left to do Triggered Salute? If I follow your previous thinking correctly, you probably step back with your left.

thanks, yours in Kenpo,
Teej


----------



## 8253

instead of striking the opponents elbow with an elbow, maybe a palm heel to the elbow.  From there his right foot will probably be forward, personally i believe from there a quick snap kick to the front of the knee should effectively diffuse the problem.


----------



## teej

I for one do not teach striking the elbow with an elbow. It may work, but it may also slip or glance up & off. The greater margin for error is to strike at or above the elbow with a left forearm strike. (think of your forearm as an iron bar striking. you have atleast a 12" potential striking surface as opposed to a 1" elbow area]

Kicking the front knee? Well there are many possibilities for defusing the problem. However; this is a standard technique taught in the "ideal phase". The technique is taught in a specific way so the instructor can teach the student specific principles as well as disguised repitition. The technique is just a tool for the instructor to use to teach. It may certainly work the way it is taught. The various ways to effectively diffuse the problem are learned by learning the techniques, but more importantly by your spontaneous drills where you most certainly can kick the front knee if you find yourself in position to do that.

Teej


----------



## 8253

as far as the techniques go they are just a guide to proper movement.  it is the adaptations that is what get the job done.  as far as kicking the knee in front of you, it doesent go just for knees.  It goes for anything that is in front of you that you can disable as quickly as possible.  That was just one of the many variations that can work.


----------



## rmcrobertson

I don't think that the point is simply to disable, "whatever's in front of you," as quickly as possible. In fact, there are lots of times in which doing that will get you into more trouble--for example, kicking that front leg in response to a right push could quite easily bring the opponent's left hand and foot forward.

One way of handling this might be to make some decisions about the kind of kick. Another might be to check that knee as you step in...as per the "ideal," technique," before anything else.


----------



## 8253

how about this  :btg:


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## 8253

WooooHooooo Kick'em in the nads


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## sumdumguy

Here in lye's one of the great problems in Kenpo today. People are to quick to just change tech's for the purpose of immediate results, rather than study the concepts and theory of the technique to better understand what is really supposed to happen, thereby making execution of the technique even more effective. 
      Zone cancellation through the (proper) use of a geometrical path executed to the opponents elbow coupled with the left leg knee check to the opponent's right leg. Zone cancellation is further compounded with the left arm anchoring while pulling (inside shape of the crane) the opponent's right arm back on a 7 plane and simultaneously executing the palm heel strike to the chin... cont...... 
     These simple concepts allow for total dominance of an opponent not the opportunity for a left punch or follow up anything. What if is good, but keep it in the what if realm of the system. Ideal execution and practice of the base system is important for beginners to start to grasp the concepts of said system.
Just my opinion.... :asian:


----------



## 8253

As i have said in the past techniques are just guidelines.  No opponent will react the exact way the a technique is practiced.  You must study the variables or you will stick yourself in a pattern that will cause you to become predictable.  As far as a fight goes every time you move your opponent counters untill he sees an opening, therefore i belive that instead of a check or something along that line it is better to break the arm or the leg to effectively incapacitate your opponent from being able to successfully countering your movements.


----------



## Michael Billings

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> Here in lye's one of the great problems in Kenpo today. People are to quick to just change tech's for the purpose of immediate results, rather than study the concepts and theory of the technique to better understand what is really supposed to happen, thereby making execution of the technique even more effective.
> Zone cancellation through the (proper) use of a geometrical path executed to the opponents elbow coupled with the left leg knee check to the opponent's right leg. Zone cancellation is further compounded with the left arm anchoring while pulling (inside shape of the crane) the opponent's right arm back on a 7 plane and simultaneously executing the palm heel strike to the chin... cont......
> These simple concepts allow for total dominance of an opponent not the opportunity for a left punch or follow up anything. What if is good, but keep it in the what if realm of the system. Ideal execution and practice of the base system is important for beginners to start to grasp the concepts of said system.
> Just my opinion.... :asian:


 What he said!

 -Michael


----------



## sumdumguy

8253 said:
			
		

> As i have said in the past techniques are just guidelines.  No opponent will react the exact way the a technique is practiced.  You must study the variables or you will stick yourself in a pattern that will cause you to become predictable.  As far as a fight goes every time you move your opponent counters untill he sees an opening, therefore i belive that instead of a check or something along that line it is better to break the arm or the leg to effectively incapacitate your opponent from being able to successfully countering your movements.



Gee I never thought of that.....


----------



## Rainman

8253 said:
			
		

> As i have said in the past techniques are just guidelines.  No opponent will react the exact way the a technique is practiced.  You must study the variables or you will stick yourself in a pattern that will cause you to become predictable.  As far as a fight goes every time you move your opponent counters untill he sees an opening, therefore i belive that instead of a check or something along that line it is better to break the arm or the leg to effectively incapacitate your opponent from being able to successfully countering your movements.



This is another misconception... when the target is struck with pin point accuracy, and on the plane that dictates cancellation for that target, you begin the process of zone cancellation. Coupled with timing you remove the ability for an opponent to counter-   This is not easy and neither is AK... However if you are not able to use these tools, it might be wise to go through your material and find out what links are missing...  

Techniques are more like working models to explore-  variables are diminished when zones are cancelled.  Here is the real what if= what if you didn't cancel the zone?  then you have variables to contend with.   So yes, to error is human and is always smart to prepare for the worst case scenario... But also study for dominance, it is the American way.


----------



## rmcrobertson

Nope, the point is not to simply break whatever's in front of you: it's to remove the attacker's ability to keep attacking. Obviously, if this means walking away or talking the guy out of it, that's what you try first.

More specifically, the stuff mentioned about "zone cancellation," is quite right; another way to put it is that you are trying to eliminate the opponent's ability to turn toward you, in any dimension of height, width, or depth.

Another of the current problems with kenpo appears in the proliferation of unnecessarily obscure, in-group language such as (sorry in advance), "geometrical path executed to the...elbow."

In the first place, one doesn't execute a geometrical path: a "geometrical path," unless the language shifted on me late last night, is the trajectory a strike, block, parry, etc. takes. You execute a kick along a chosen path, in other words.

Moreover, I'm afraid that I don't agree that martial arts are simply about, "dominance," or that dominaance is somehow, "the American way."

As your skill and ability increases, I'd thought, we were supposed to learn to do more than just bust the other guy up, especially when not absolutely necessary. Of course, I'm not there yet...


----------



## pete

> Of course, I'm not there yet... rmcrobertson



it sounds as if you may be closer than you think, or at least facing the right direction with the wind at your back~ 

pete


----------



## Rainman

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Nope, the point is not to simply break whatever's in front of you: it's to remove the attacker's ability to keep attacking. Obviously, if this means walking away or talking the guy out of it, that's what you try first.
> 
> More specifically, the stuff mentioned about "zone cancellation," is quite right; another way to put it is that you are trying to eliminate the opponent's ability to turn toward you, in any dimension of height, width, or depth.
> 
> Another of the current problems with kenpo appears in the proliferation of unnecessarily obscure, in-group language such as (sorry in advance), "geometrical path executed to the...elbow."
> 
> In the first place, one doesn't execute a geometrical path: a "geometrical path," unless the language shifted on me late last night, is the trajectory a strike, block, parry, etc. takes. You execute a kick along a chosen path, in other words.
> 
> Moreover, I'm afraid that I don't agree that martial arts are simply about, "dominance," or that dominaance is somehow, "the American way."
> 
> As your skill and ability increases, I'd thought, we were supposed to learn to do more than just bust the other guy up, especially when not absolutely necessary. Of course, I'm not there yet...


 
Go to a seminar and learn the material- other than that I don't see how any of your comments can be taken seriously... I am afraid your commments are irrelevant to us as you are a prime example of the "whys" that don't exist in the commercial product.  

Absurd statements such as "a good technique line is the heart of the art", "circles are flat",  and trying to reinterpret the fact that dominance in a combat situation is paramount begs the question... If you are not there yet, how do you know it all?

Good day sir, I will not be responding to you again because I find no value in  doing so.


----------



## rmcrobertson

Dear Rainman:

I am sorry, but I still don't agree with some elements of what was previously posted. And I'm a little confused by your response, inasmuch as I largely--though not entirely--agreed with your postings on this thread. 

As for your suggestion that I attend more seminars, sorry, I haven't the time. Fortunately, I'm still studying in a place (though not often enough, in my opinion) that pretty much guarantees learning properly. I am sorry that your attempts at bullying are not working in my direction, so that I continue to express different ideas than yours. 

On serious matters, I continue to argue that the point isn't simply to smash whatever's in front of you. Though I certainly understand the impulse, and I agree that at certain stages of training this is essential, I don't buy some of the readings of, "Glancing Salute," I've read below.


----------



## Touch Of Death

*Mod Warning*
Please keep your comments polite and respectfull. :asian:


----------



## 8253

im sorry but you guys lost me when you started talking about Geometrical stuff and zones and cancelations.  I didnt take American Kenpo and these things are not included in our curriculum.  As far as talking your way out or walking away goes, these are the best options without a doubt.  However when the situation has been elevated to physical use of force it is always better to end it as quickly as possible.  For example. the first posting was for a technique of a front right cross cross shoulder push.
When your opponents right hand reaches you shoulder (not the first time, exhaust you verbal options first) if you grab his right hand with your right hand and step back with your right foot into a bow stance, the opponent will probably step forward with his right foot.  Then still holding on to their right hand (preferably by the wrist to turn their arm) you are in a good position to execute a palm heel strike with your left hand to thier right elbow.  Which will more than likely make them not want to turn to face you.    From the strike point you should be in somewhat of a horse stance.  Still holding on to the opponents right arm you could either turn back into the bow stance and do a snap kick to thier right knee which should still be forward, or while executing the palm heel strike you could bring you stance from the bow stance to the horse stance and bring you feet together from there and then to a short shuffle and knife kick to their right knee.  
Of course this is an ideal technique and modifications would have to be made for an actual situation.  As far as technical sayings im not sure about zones or anything like that.  This is the way that we train.  To end a physical altercation as quickly as possible.


----------



## Touch Of Death

8253 said:
			
		

> im sorry but you guys lost me when you started talking about Geometrical stuff and zones and cancelations.  I didnt take American Kenpo and these things are not included in our curriculum.  As far as talking your way out or walking away goes, these are the best options without a doubt.  However when the situation has been elevated to physical use of force it is always better to end it as quickly as possible.  For example. the first posting was for a technique of a front right cross cross shoulder push.
> When your opponents right hand reaches you shoulder (not the first time, exhaust you verbal options first) if you grab his right hand with your right hand and step back with your right foot into a bow stance, the opponent will probably step forward with his right foot.  Then still holding on to their right hand (preferably by the wrist to turn their arm) you are in a good position to execute a palm heel strike with your left hand to thier right elbow.  Which will more than likely make them not want to turn to face you.    From the strike point you should be in somewhat of a horse stance.  Still holding on to the opponents right arm you could either turn back into the bow stance and do a snap kick to thier right knee which should still be forward, or while executing the palm heel strike you could bring you stance from the bow stance to the horse stance and bring you feet together from there and then to a short shuffle and knife kick to their right knee.
> Of course this is an ideal technique and modifications would have to be made for an actual situation.  As far as technical sayings im not sure about zones or anything like that.  This is the way that we train.  To end a physical altercation as quickly as possible.


Well for one thing, rather than the heel palm strike the tech has us use our entire forearm for margin for error. Because its across your body the angle would be a little awkward for an heel palm. And because we went with the forearm we havent pushed him away enough to be able to see and guage a kick to the knee; however if you quick switched your left leg to the rear on your first move you could deliver a pretty devastating round house or hard sweep to which ever leg he had foward at the time. Anywho the situation calls for knee strikes because of his close proximity :asian: 
Sean


----------



## rmcrobertson

Oh. Well, the "zone," stuff is pretty straightforward, as is the, "cancellation," material.

American kenpo (you might look at Ed parker's, "Infinite Insights," books), says that you have three basic dimensions--height, width, depth--and a set of zones that you can "cut," the body up into, in order to understand issues like range, or penetration of a strike or whatever.

Basically, when people talk about, "cancelling," (and we often moosh together zones and dimensions), they're talking about cancelling an opponent's ability to move up or down (height), to turn toward or away from you (width), or to move toward or away from you (depth),

So, in Glancing Salute, attacking the arm you're shoved with lets you cancel their width, because as you attack their right arm, their left side turns away from you; at the same time, you're checking (again, "cancelling," and "checking," get used a bit too interchangeably...I know I do it) their height, because as you pin and break that right arm, the opponent tends to come up on their toes. 

The move that's being discussed--following that first move by stepping in and checking (or even kicking) their right knee--involves a depth check, because your opponent will find that it's darn hard to advance when he's being kneed, especially since this is accompanied by getting hit in the face with a heel-palm strike that "glances," around to the back of the neck.

I'm just arguing that as you step in from there and deliver a right downward diagonal elbow, you don't kick the lead leg, because a) this is awkward at that angle, and b) you might turn the opponent's left side toward you--you kick the back leg/left leg, because this will help control their width and keep that left side away. 

After the base technique, there's an ending--or an, "extension," if you prefer--that teaches going after the opponent's undamaged left side and left supporting leg.

One other issue: people do, quite legitimately, get taught different versions of the same techniques. I tend to be a bit formal, even traditional, even anal, and stick to what's called the "ideal," level, before moving on, because I think that does a better job of teaching students the necessary concepts (basic ideas) and principles (rules of actual motion) of kenpo.

Does that help at all?


----------



## sumdumguy

Well, I will keep this as polite as possible. Since it's obvious that you are replying to several posts but did not specify who's.... and just feel like being argumentative.



			
				rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Nope, the point is not to simply break whatever's in front of you: it's to remove the attacker's ability to keep attacking. Obviously, if this means walking away or talking the guy out of it, that's what you try first....


This is the obvious, we are talking about after all this crap happens.



			
				rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> More specifically, the stuff mentioned about "zone cancellation," is quite right; another way to put it is that you are trying to eliminate the opponent's ability to turn toward you, in any dimension of height, width, or depth....


There are lot's of "ways to put it" but it is reffered to as "zone cancellation" this encompasses all THREE of the dimensional zones of your opponent. Not specifically, more a generic term. 



			
				rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Another of the current problems with kenpo appears in the proliferation of unnecessarily obscure, in-group language such as (sorry in advance), "geometrical path executed to the...elbow."...


Include the entire thing, "the proper use of geometrical paths, executed to the elbow." This means ( for you lamen) that the inward forearm strike should be executed using (applying the use of) geometrical path to increase your margin for error and allow for greater "control" of your opponent. vs. executing a palm heel or elbow strike to the opponent's elbow, which is a more precise weapon and allows for little margin for error, especially at the beginning stage of learning in the AK system.



			
				rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> In the first place, one doesn't execute a geometrical path: a "geometrical path," unless the language shifted on me late last night, is the trajectory a strike, block, parry, etc. takes. You execute a kick along a chosen path, in other words....


See above..... trajectory, a geometric curve or suface the cuts all the curves or surfaces of a given system at a constant angle. Are you saying you cannot execute an inward block along a path, or it doesn't follow a path or possibly a line. Those are your only options for either to be executed on, or do you have some enlightening piece of information you wish to share and straighten me out?



			
				rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Moreover, I'm afraid that I don't agree that martial arts are simply about, "dominance," or that dominaance is somehow, "the American way."...


Look at the global dealings that we have and how America deals with others. I would have to partially agree with you about the martial arts not being about dominance, but then why did you reply with all these silly little "I'm right your wrong" answers, if you weren't trying to show your dominance in the arts or knowledge? I was simply offering my opinion when posted, not correcting peoples interpratations of the system or technique.



			
				rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> As your skill and ability increases, I'd thought, we were supposed to learn to do more than just bust the other guy up, especially when not absolutely necessary. Of course, I'm not there yet...


We are talking about a Self-defense technique, not Peace and love. The idea is to be more effective when "needed". I didn't run down to the local pub and try this out on five people to come up with the best solution. I've done this tech thousands of times on the matt with hundreds of different people.

Understand this, I have no intentions of forcing my opinions or practices on anyone that does not ask for them. This forum (for me) is more of a means of entertainment, with the exception of a couple of people on here there isn't much being said. I don't do pissing matches and I don't do critisisms of other peoples information (made that mistake once). 
Peace out....  :asian:


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## rmcrobertson

First off, I am precisely saying that one executes a strike along a, "geometrical path." Absolutely. However, one does not execute a geometrical path; one executes a strike following a particular....and anyway, you see what I'm saying.

But strictly speaking, the sort of whole-forearm strike you quite correctly advocate does not really follow a narrow path. To borrow from Mr. Parker, it "squeegees," as though you were clearning a window pane.

Second, certainly it's correct to say that the zone theory includes consideration of height, width and depth. I thought that that was what I wrote. However, zones are not only height, width and depth: see "The Encyclopedia of Kenpo," under the headings "Zone Theory," and "Dimensional  Zone Concept." Zones also include obscure zones, the outer rim concept, and some other things. "Dimensional zones," specifically include dividing, "their opponent's body...into vertical and horizontal zones (sections) as viewed from the front, sides and back," which is where the "Venetian blind," analogy that Mr. Parker sometimes used came from. 

As, I suspect, you already know. 

You mention my, "silly little I'm right, you're wrong answers," or whatever it was. Sorry you don't care for them.

However, as a general policy statement, here's the reality: while it has become fashionable to claim that ANYTHING goes in kenpo, and that it's all just a matter of seeing things differently, or having been taught differently, I don't buy that for a minute. 

There are, in fact, rights and wrongs in self-defense techniques--for example, teaching students to kick the opponent's lead knee in the ideal version of Glancing Salute. And the reason this ain't right has to do with what I mentioned--first the tech teaches (again, in the ideal phase) to step in as a response to a cross-push (Triggered Salute taught stepping in as a response to a straight push, yes?), and it's pretty hard to kick that lead leg from there; and second, teaching kicking that lead leg screws with the way students learn about cancelling zones.

For that matter, there are right and wrong ways to do forms, sets, and everything else, including basics. There's an increasingly-large range of possibilities as knowledge grows, sure, but one still has to stay within what people like E.D. Hirsch called, the "horizon," of meanings--within certain bounds, in other words.

I'd argue that kenpo is also developing a bad habit of creating more and more obscurantist language, one that traces back in part to some of Mr. Parker's own pseudo-scientific language.

And as for other matters, I didn't remark upon walking (or in my case, running) away because I didn't think people knew that. I remarked upon walking (or in my case, running) away, because I wanted to make a point about a consistent policy of cancelling out an opponent's ability to hit you, one that extends from walking/running all the way through to the ends of the technique extensions and beyond.

Oh yes, and last---I suspect you'd agree that martial arts offer one among many ways beyond violence, eh? Dominance games are certainly part of what we are, but they aren't all there is, as you already know, yes?

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.


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## sumdumguy

My point is, that if I wanted to be more precise in my description of terms and or use of them, I would have. Although precision of descriptions of motion and terms does educate people, leaving something for investigation by said people will educate them further hopefully. Additionally, I do not specify or use to much precision with the terms because there are to many interpretations of each term and it typically changes the thread to trying to understand what ones interpretation of that term was/is. "give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for the rest of his life" something like that... 
      Since we all seem to love to quote Mr. Parker, book 5 page 64, qoute of Tom Riskas thesis. "One's formal training, then, is a function of physical conditioning and the effective tailoring of various ideas and concepts to the individual's mental and physical capacity." Same book page 233, "I further hoe that capitalizing on my discoveries will allow those who are interested, more time to experiment and exploit other areas needing study."
      Experimentation, exploitation that's all that's happening here.... Q & A... Like I said, It's all entertainment to me... 
Are we having fun yet.  :boing2:


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## 8253

I believe the first posting asked for variations of the technique also.  As far as trying to say im right and your wrong, im not going to do that due to the fact that i believe we may be going in the same direction with this but just using different methods.  I belive all of these techniques will work when executed properly.  I prefer to use the variation which i previously described in stepping back instead of forward.  We are taught to disect the techniques and learn different variables to solve the problem.  This variation is just a preferance.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

8253 said:
			
		

> I believe the first posting asked for variations of the technique also. As far as trying to say im right and your wrong, im not going to do that due to the fact that i believe we may be going in the same direction with this but just using different methods. I belive all of these techniques will work when executed properly. I prefer to use the variation which i previously described in stepping back instead of forward. We are taught to disect the techniques and learn different variables to solve the problem. This variation is just a preferance.


The techniques were designed for an ideal attack, and by changing the technique you've also altered the nature of attack.   If you're stepping back instead of forward in Glancing Salute, you've drastically altered your margin of error with little to no depth cancellation as it will also have an effect on height cancellation with these new depth parameters.   If you're dissecting a technique, ensure you do so with the 3 points of view in mind.

DarK LorD


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## 8253

I have looked at the depths of it, and i tried it several times last night. I found that when I stepped forward i was to close to the opponent and in such a position to where i couldnt have struck the elbow as it was described.  I found that when i stepped in after pinning the arm, the elbow always bent down into their ribs.   I did however notice there are other good targets such as the right side of the head and the right side of the neck.  
As far as steping back goes it gives you space and access to the elbow and knee.  Both ways have their pro's and con's, i just prefer stepping back.


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## teej

Here is another variable to look at if you are having trouble with "The Standard Technique". Look at the ending stance of the attacker.

Has the attacker stepped in straight where their knees are pointing straight? Have they atepped forward into a right neutral bow? How about those begining students that step in to push and end up in a side horse stance?

Again the standard is taught to teach specific principles. Changing angles or targets can change the principles meant to be taught. You practice your changes in spontaneous & what if drills.

As for the anything goes theory, well ya anything can work in the correct circumstances. However as Mr. Robertson hinted at, Kenpo does have specific rules, principles and theories that apply. If you get away from these, you are not doing American Kenpo. 

The standards are taught to teach the student correct body movement, and the proper AK principles. This has been the problem with SOME of the break off systmes as well as SOME individuals that receive their black belts and go off on their own thinking they are instructors. They make changes to things without understanding why or what the standards are suppose to teach.

I have been watching someone recently whom is a rather respected Black Belt in the Martial Arts industry. He is NOT an Ed Parker black belt. However, he has been teaching Ed Parker techniques. This individual wears an advanced rank. He has the standard technique moves and targets, but he has absolutely NO body mechanics. No motion what so ever. Everything is fast and speedy AND ALL ARM motion. He shows no understanding of the power principles. He hits hard with his fast arms, I'll give him that. But it ends there.
And it is being reflected in his students as well. Everything is the back up mass of the arm. Hardly any hip movement at all. Very little rotation if any. Having the techniqe moves does not make it Ed Parker Kenpo. You have to have an understanding of the concepts and principles. Why they are taught the way they are. What SGM Parker wanted to get accross.

Yes there is room for variation and alteration, but you have to understand the principles of this system. That is why the student needs a quality instructor to guide them, which is also why instructors should seek out seniors for guidance in what they are teaching.

I look to this type of forum and its sometime controversy to stimulate thought so I can further ask my instructor for his opinion and guidance. That is one way I can grow as an instructor.

Again, yes you can change and adapt techniques for certain situations. The standard has the attacker attacking in a specific way [ideal phase] and stance so you can study certain targets and principles. The further drills you or your instructor run will prepare you to adapt to different situations as different body sizes, different attacker stances, etc. If you don't know or understand the principles, ask what they are. What is this standard techniqe trying to teach? 

If your understanding is that Glancing Salute is just teaching you how to deal with a cross shoulder push attack, you are completely misguided. You have a lot more questions and evaluating to do.

On a different note, I do not always agree with Mr. Robertsons view of things, but he has been making some valid points in this thread. My opinion is  that we all can learn something from everyone.

Teej


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## rmcrobertson

In its ideal form, "Glancing Salute," teaches stepping forward with the left foot. Period; end of story. You're welcome to step back, but that is not the ideal form of the technique, and it should not be taught that way unless there's some awfully good reason--on the level of the student not having a left leg, for example. 

There's another reason for stepping forward that hasn't been mentioned. Yellow belt techniques, and Short Form 1, teach retreating primarily. Orange belt techniques--and the form often started at the end of Orange materials, Short 2--teach advancing, and stepping up to the weapon you're employing. Sorry, but when you jack around with these basics, you're jacking around with the student's ability to learn. Sure, a few do perfectly well this way. I would not have. 

In fact, I think these changes say a lot more about the instructor's lack of knowledge, boredom, and misplaced ideas about creativity than they do about  the character of kenpo. 

It is interesting to see it mentioned that when you step forward, "I did however notice there are other good targets such as the right side of the head and the right side of the neck." Absolutely right. This is why the technique is called, "Glancing Salute:" in its ideal form, the initial attack on the opponent's right arm is followed up with a right heel-palm that "glances," off the right side of the jaw, and around to the back of the neck so that they can be pulled down into a follow-up, if necessary. But it seems to me significant that this did not open up without a step forward.

Incidentally, this is also an opportunity to teach/to learn moving directly from strike to strike (sequential flow, if I recall...looking it up....yes, pretty much...must work on my grasp of terms, before Clyde steps in ugly) and setting up the next move--that, "billiard-ball," analogy Mr. Parker often used.

Step back on the inital move, and the technique's very name makes no sense.


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## 8253

First off is American Kenpo a hard or soft style?  As i said before, i didnt take American Kenpo. Look guys, it asked for variations, i gave a variation, you questioned it, i responded.  At least i bothered to try it in the described manner and found out that yes there are ways to strike if you step forward with your left foot.  I just prefer a different way.  i believe that you are right in your opinions of the techniques, but i believe i am also right.  I can accept different answers for one question but you dont have to try to shove your opinion down my throat over and over again.  I do practice principles of motion for added effeciency to tecniques and variations.  An open mind is a wonderful thing.  And by the way Mr. rmcrobertson just because i do things different doesnt mean you have to insult me or my instructor.  Insults dont get a person very far in my beliefs.


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## Michael Billings

8253,

  I did not see an insult from Robert, unless you took his 



> In fact, I think these changes say a lot more about the instructor's lack of knowledge, boredom, and misplaced ideas about creativity than they do about the character of kenpo.


 as the insult. I do not think it was directed specifically at you necessarily, or your teacher, although that may be debatable in this context. Rather, Robert, as have we all, had to adjust to what we perceive as the amount of material which is not being taught by a great many people. There are actually generations of teacher out there who never even met Mr. Parker, much less were exposed to what he was teaching in the late '80's. 

 The Ideal Phase of the technique is taught, and intended to be taught by Mr. Parker, the way Robert describes it ... and trust me, Robert and I do not agree about everything, but I do respect he and his teacher's ability and depth of knowledge. In this case, the major Principle or Concept being taught is Purposeful Compliance, as noted in the Encyclopedia of Kenpo, and the manuals (unpublished) that he and his 3-4 in-group students were working on at the time. Puposeful Compliance is defined as[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]: Yielding to pressure an opponent exerts against your body in order to utilize the force exerted against them. This could be stepping back, put in this case it is not, rather it is providing torque (through rotation) for the vertical forearm strike to the opponent's elbow, which by the way, is just creating a fulcrum ... your torso works just as well, but that is a What-If Phase.

  -Michael



  [/size][/font]


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## rmcrobertson

Apologies, but I stand behind what I wrote.

More generally (and apologies in advance), but this sort of thing is not a matter of opinion, with all opinions being equal. Similarly, in the sciences all opinions about issues like, say, evolution are not equal--in fact it's finally not a matter of opinion at all. 

When one says that, "Darwin, fundamentally, was right," or, "Glancing Salute in its ideal phase begins with a step forward," one isn't relying on opinion, but on testable reality. Moreover, teaching it that way dovetails with a) the nature of the teaching system in kenpo; b) certain concepts and principles, as already mentioned; c) practical self-defense.

Another point worth mentioning is that stepping back suggests that one is avoiding getting pushed at all, able to react so fast that the attack never properly lands. Yet there are several techniques around orange and purple belt--Triggered Salute, Clutching Feathers, Snapping Twig come to mind immediately--that are designed to come into play after a grab or push has arrived. All of them--and Glancing Salute too--partly rely on the attacker's, "locking," their arm in place so that it can be attacked.

I'm sorry for any insult. I had thought I'd made it clear that  I, at least, have the same problems I  see in what you're writing, the same errroneous impulses that I'm criticizing.

But nonethless, it isn't just opinion. And I'm interested in why folks override basic kenpo concepts and principles, and start changing things that were fine to begin with.


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## 8253

I also owe an apology to you guys.  Hey one way or the other i appreciate your honesty and willingness to stand behind what you say.  I look foreward to future conversation.


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