# Kenpo Basic's



## Kenpoist (Feb 19, 2006)

*PARKERS LOGIC*

This method of spreading his art was made possible for one simple reason: The majority of Parkers black belts at the time were already advanced students in other arts, and they brought basic skills from their disciplines with them. They became Parker converts to his logic and reasoning approach. Even though many of their basics were different from what he wanted, they all had some measure of functional skill as a base. 

For the most part, these guys were old school street fighters, anyway. This meant they could take care of themselves on the street, and that is what kenpo karate was supposed to be about. This diversity in basics has been played out in students ever since. 

(from Dr. Chapel's Kenpo Roots Article)

Jumping off of Dr. Chapels first article, do you think that Kenpo schools are lacking in teaching their students the basic fundamentals?  Unlike most traditional schools where you spend entire classes kicking and punching up and down the dojo and standing in horse stances for 30 minutes at a time (as was my early years experience in Shotokan and TKD), many Kenpo schools go right into the meat of the system and believe you will learn proper stances/ punching/kicks as you practice your techniques and forms.

Are we being too soft on kenpo students? Should we focus more on basics skills before delving into the core curriculum (techniques)?  Do we need to bring back the hard and sound fundamentals of the traditional arts?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 19, 2006)

I think so. I'm supposed to be headed to class right now but I think i should add that an instructor should discourage the longing for new material an encourage the attitude of wanting to do the same old stuff at higher levels. what I am trying to say is don't cross Delayed Sword off your list, it is supposed to be your base... as in B1a, B1b, ect... or you could learn long four instead.
Sean


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## Brother John (Feb 19, 2006)

Kenpoist said:
			
		

> Are we being too soft on kenpo students? Should we focus more on basics skills before delving into the core curriculum (techniques)? Do we need to bring back the hard and sound fundamentals of the traditional arts?


1st: I don't really see how the part of Mr. Chapel's article you quoted had so much to do with your question. From what I understand, that which he said had to do with "Diversity" of basics because many had brought their methods of executing the basics from other arts that they'd already learned, not 





> lacking in teaching their students the basic fundamentals


. So I guess I don't see the relationship there.
But the question is good.

2nd: (pertaining to the portion I quoted above) As to "Are WE being too soft on kenpo students?".
I'm not. 
Basics are the meat of the art. The techniques/forms/sets...etc. are just different sequences and contexts in which to express those basics. The quality of our Techniques, sets and forms can Never exceed the quality of our basics. Never. I think that some MAY neglect giving their students a strong foundation in the fundamentals and hope that they pick it up along the way. I disagree with that approach!   ...but to each their own, and I don't believe that this is a wide-spread problem.  


> Should we focus more on basics skills before delving into the core curriculum (techniques)?


Yes _and *NO*_. It's not a matter of prefering one over the other, I don't think. It's a matter of getting them *both* right. The basics are extrememly important (the most important) in Kenpo (or Any martial art, in my opinion), but to only study them when executed independantly is only a minor first step. An important step, but just the first one. Then the basics are expressed through the Self Defense Techniques, Forms and Sets.... but they (basics) are still in there and the student is still learning to execute them, but now it's gaining more meaning and the student aquires a better concept of them because they are being done within a useful context. When a single basic is expressed in multiple variations through several different Techniques....then that one basic is understood all the more. But no matter HOW it's being expressed, we still have to be VERY adamant about HOW it's being done...the basics are still verymuch "In there". You wouldn't teach a child to 'read' by just having them look at individual words, standing alone on single sheets of paper. That's not reading, it's letter recognition. It's when you begin them on simple sentences and phrases that they are really learning how to read. You shouldn't skip the stage of learning word recognition through phonetics, but until you give the words a "use" and put them w/in a context...it's meaningless.
So...in short ((_too late_)) I think that we MUST stress proper form in the execution of the basics, wether they are being done w/in the context of a Technique, Form, Set.....or independantly in a horse stance....etc. 
Maybe what's lacking isn't a strong focus on the basics, but on getting the student to NOT sacrafice proper Form for other elements like speed, power, surprise....etc, while using those basics in a technique. I've seen Kenpoists who can stand in a horse stance and execute a right outward handsword at neck level with excellent form until the cows come home..... but then when they are trying to really RIP through five swords the form of their outward handsword to the neck gets sacrificed because they THINK they are whipping it out quick... 
If a student is taught well, they'd realize that the "Proper Form" of any basic is Exactly HOW to optimize all of those other elements: power, speed, fluidity, precision...etc., ect.


> Do we need to bring back the hard and sound fundamentals of the traditional arts?


Why would doing our basics "hard" be the "sound" way of doing them? I'd never want to practice them "hard", that's counter productive. It's a misconception to think that a basic executed HARD, is a basic executed well. 
Good form is what's important, NOT muscular tension. MOST of the time, muscular tension would actually defeat good form.

...Just my thoughts.
Your Brother
John


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## Kenpoist (Feb 19, 2006)

Good Points from both of you.  I was using Dr. Chapel's article more to go off on a tangent rather than direct comparison

  In my experience, I have seen schools where there is no time spent explaining to new students the essential basics like kicks, punches and stances. The student is left with trying to mimic the more experienced student&#8217;s and is already off to developing bad habits.  I would say at the very least show them how to execute a proper front kick (ball of foot etc..), reverse punch (how to roll the fold of your palm to make a fist, use the front two knuckles etc..) and other basic principles. 

 My previous TKD school set a good foundation for basics which helped me to excel in my Kenpo training.  The flip side could be applied to my TKD training &#8211; no practical Self-Defense was taught (but that is another thread).

Thanks fo the input-


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## kenposikh (Feb 19, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> I think so. I'm supposed to be headed to class right now but I think i should add that an instructor should discourage the longing for new material an encourage the attitude of wanting to do the same old stuff at higher levels. what I am trying to say is don't cross Delayed Sword off your list, it is supposed to be your base... as in B1a, B1b, ect... or you could learn long four instead.
> Sean


 
Dear Sir,

couldn't agree with you more, the stronger the basics the better the kenpo. It's like trying to build a house as fast as possible if you don't get the foundations(basics) solid then it ain't gonna stand up for long


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## Doc (Feb 20, 2006)

Kenpoist said:
			
		

> *PARKERS LOGIC*
> 
> This method of spreading his art was made possible for one simple reason: The majority of Parkers black belts at the time were already advanced students in other arts, and they brought basic skills from their disciplines with them. They became Parker converts to his logic and reasoning approach. Even though many of their basics were different from what he wanted, they all had some measure of functional skill as a base.
> 
> ...


For what its worth, I do.


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## Doc (Feb 20, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Basics are the meat of the art. The techniques/forms/sets...etc. are just different sequences and contexts in which to express those basics. The quality of our Techniques, sets and forms can Never exceed the quality of our basics. Never. I think that some MAY neglect giving their students a strong foundation in the fundamentals and hope that they pick it up along the way. I disagree with that approach!
> 
> Yes _and *NO*_. It's not a matter of prefering one over the other, I don't think. It's a matter of getting them *both* right. The basics are extrememly important (the most important) in Kenpo (or Any martial art, in my opinion), but to only study them when executed independantly is only a minor first step. An important step, but just the first one. Then the basics are expressed through the Self Defense Techniques, Forms and Sets.... but they (basics) are still in there and the student is still learning to execute them, but now it's gaining more meaning and the student aquires a better concept of them because they are being done within a useful context. When a single basic is expressed in multiple variations through several different Techniques....then that one basic is understood all the more. But no matter HOW it's being expressed, we still have to be VERY adamant about HOW it's being done...the basics are still verymuch "In there". You wouldn't teach a child to 'read' by just having them look at individual words, standing alone on single sheets of paper. That's not reading, it's letter recognition. It's when you begin them on simple sentences and phrases that they are really learning how to read. You shouldn't skip the stage of learning word recognition through phonetics, but until you give the words a "use" and put them w/in a context...it's meaningless.
> So...in short ((_too late_)) I think that we MUST stress proper form in the execution of the basics, wether they are being done w/in the context of a Technique, Form, Set.....or independantly in a horse stance....etc.
> ...


If you had let me answer you would have saved yourself a lot of typing. What am I saying? Keep answering! I couldn't have said it any better.


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## Bode (Feb 20, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> For what its worth, I do.


Uh... yeah. A few quotes from Doc:

"Fix your feat. I might as well stop teaching you if you can't get into a neutral bow"

While looking away from you, "Your timing's off. The slap check comes with the strike." He even hears our mistakes... and yes, he's right.

"Point your fingers UP damnit!"... yes, it's been said even for one finger (when delivering a heel palm strike). 

"Your upward block sucks."... said to everyone from black belts to white belts at some point. 

Of course, with all the hard work, Doc is very humorous and interlacing jokes in the class when needed.


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## Doc (Feb 20, 2006)

Bode said:
			
		

> Uh... yeah. A few quotes from Doc:
> 
> "Fix your feat. I might as well stop teaching you if you can't get into a neutral bow"
> 
> ...


Tuesday, you're dead.


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## IWishToLearn (Feb 21, 2006)

I just decided I'm heading to LA to go to Universal Studios for three days. Dr. Chapel is there any time before Friday if I am not at US all day long that I might be able to come bug ya again?


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## Doc (Feb 21, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> I just decided I'm heading to LA to go to Universal Studios for three days. Dr. Chapel is there any time before Friday if I am not at US all day long that I might be able to come bug ya again?


I will be available Thursday evening sir.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 21, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> I will be available Thursday evening sir.


 
Now I'M the one left out. You suck.


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## Doc (Feb 21, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Now I'M the one left out. You suck.


Your day will come.


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## IWishToLearn (Feb 22, 2006)

Universal Studios closes at 6PM. Same place I presume, what time are you around?


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## IWishToLearn (Feb 22, 2006)

Dr. Crouch where you located these days?


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## Doc (Feb 22, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Universal Studios closes at 6PM. Same place I presume, what time are you around?


After 8.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 23, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Dr. Crouch where you located these days?


 
Like the moniker says...freezing cold Napa Valley...right near where the 121/12 and the 29 intersect. Practice in scenic -- albeit also very cold -- St Helena. 

e-mail me and I'll get you my cell and office numbers if you'd like to hook up to train; jonesing for a kenpo fix.

Regards,

D.


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## IWishToLearn (Feb 23, 2006)

*grumbles*

*takes deep breath*

I must unfortunately cancel out on you Dr. Chapel - during today's outing to Universal Studios I made the mistake of riding the Back to the Future ride and it reaggravated (although technically speaking it never got un-aggravated...bah semantics) my back injury to the point where I seriously doubt my ability to drive the hour drive down to the hood tonight . A hundred thousand apologies, but I am down here until Sunday and if memory serves there may be a Saturday class I might be able to make it to. If not, I sincerely once again appreciate the invitation, and I'll do better on my next trip down here.

Dr. Crouch - I'm in Salinas, CA so someday I'll have to see if we can't hook up. Thanks for the offer!


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## Sapper6 (Feb 23, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> *grumbles*
> 
> *takes deep breath*
> 
> ...


 
why don't you just stop by Dr. Crouch's place first; let him fix you, and then cruise over to Doc's to get jacked up again.  

imagine that, kill two birds with one stone.


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## Doc (Feb 23, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> why don't you just stop by Dr. Crouch's place first; let him fix you, and then cruise over to Doc's to get jacked up again.
> 
> imagine that, kill two birds with one stone.


 I like that!


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## IWishToLearn (Feb 23, 2006)

Da|\/||\/|it! I'm already in Hollywood I don't want to go back North to go back South.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 23, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Da|\/||\/|it! I'm already in Hollywood I don't want to go back North to go back South.


 
Git yer butt in there!  I can assure you there is a 70% chance that there will be someone there who knows how to get you straight. And even if all you do is chat w/ Doc & watch the class...I mean, what are you going to do...take some advil and sit around the hotel? THEN TAKE SOME ADVIL AND SIT AROUND THE BAT-CAVE!

G'wan now,...git!

D.


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## Sapper6 (Feb 23, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Da|\/||\/|it! I'm already in Hollywood I don't want to go back North to go back South.


 
excuses are like buttholes...we've all got them, and...

besides, i'd give my left nut for a chance conversation with Doc, and you'd pass it up 'cause of a back ache...man up!  

really, hope you get feeling better.


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## kenposikh (Feb 24, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> *grumbles*
> 
> *takes deep breath*
> 
> ...


 
Hey Steve,

you're so close my advice is go in see Doc,

I used to have a bad lower back till I saw Doc and all the physios and chiropractors can't understand how I got fixed but Doc did it. Hey this man knows his stuff.

So my advice in this situation is go see him.


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