# Sparring Women



## Anarax (Aug 21, 2017)

Over the years I've sparred many women. Just about all of them were respectful and great martial artists. However; there are those few that wish to take things up a few notches, which I'm all for. The problem lies in their urge to want to up the intensity but when you increases intensity they say it isn't fair.

One example I had was with a Tae Kwon Do black belt that started taking a Karate class that I recently started. I was only a white belt, but I had previous training from other systems that she wasn't aware of. The round starts and she has great speed and technique, but telegraphs every kick. She had very little to no hand skills and was dropping them on every kick. I'm able to check almost everything she throws at me, so I counter attack with very little power. She starts to kick harder but now she's telegraphing even worse than before. I decided to up my striking power to match her own. We wear headgear in sparring and are discouraged from striking the face, only the headgear. She winds up her kick and begins to throw it, I check it as a I deliver a firm strike to her headgear. I feel her getting angrier as she starts kicking harder. I'm able to land the same counter on her multiple times. She eventually loses all composure and tells me I'm hitting to hard. She tells the instructor and he tells both of us to ease up. I was disgusted by her attitude and the lack of discipline a black belt from another system had.   

I didn't walk away with any regrets given I just responded to what was thrown at me. I'm curious if anyone else has had a similar experience? Or how they would have handled that situation?


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2017)

That's not about sparring women it's about sparring* a person* who was an idiot. It has nothing to do with gender.


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## Buka (Aug 21, 2017)

Apologies in advance, bro, I do not mean to nitpick nor cherry pick, that is not my intent - but yet, I do it anyway. But merely to point out something that should help. Your second sentence - "_Just about all of them were respectful and great martial artists."
_
No_, _they aren't, actually, they aren't even close. What's described isn't really respectful, not even if we stretch it with forgiving and open imaginations. And as for "great", c'mon now, my brother. _
_
You should get out there and go find some great ones. And ask them the same questions as your post. Then bring them to your school and have them work with the gals. It will change everything.


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## Anarax (Aug 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> That's not about sparring women it's about sparring* a person* who was an idiot. It has nothing to do with gender.



Unfortunately it does. Granted there are "idiots" as you put it, from both sexes. What I was differentiating was the standard of black belts and training when it comes to the sexes. A lot of dojos don't even let men and women spar eachother. However; a lot of the dojos that due don't pressure the females in sparring as much. There are dojos that train them as they would a man, but many times that's not the case. I have no doubt she came from a school that the male students let her beat up on them.  How else could she have achieved the rank of black belt unless she was given a pass. Maybe I should have titled my thread differently, but there is a problem with double standards when it comes to the sexes in martial arts. The only people it's harming is women themselves.


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## Anarax (Aug 21, 2017)

Buka said:


> Apologies in advance, bro, I do not mean to nitpick nor cherry pick, that is not my intent - but yet, I do it anyway. But merely to point out something that should help. Your second sentence - "_Just about all of them were respectful and great martial artists."
> _
> No_, _they aren't, actually, they aren't even close. What's described isn't really respectful, not even if we stretch it with forgiving and open imaginations. And as for "great", c'mon now, my brother.
> 
> You should get out there and go find some great ones. And ask them the same questions as your post. Then bring them to your school and have them work with the gals. It will change everything.



The example I have was a contrasting exception to my opening statement. I know full and well that Black Belt was neither great not respectful. Sorry for the confusion


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## Headhunter (Aug 21, 2017)

I posted something similar recently noting that a 12 year old girl and an older were throwing harder shots because they knew they weren't going to get hit back and of course that doesn't apply to all women but when I spar women I spar them with the same mentality as I'd spar with a man. Because In both cases I'm not trying to hurt them. The only time I'd lighten up is if it was a younger student (e.g teenager) or a complete beginner but again I'd do the same if it was a boy in those situations.

Oh and be careful a certain someone is probably now going to say you're scared of girls now


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## Headhunter (Aug 21, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Unfortunately it does. Granted there are "idiots" as you put it, from both sexes. What I was differentiating was the standard of black belts and training when it comes to the sexes. A lot of dojos don't even let men and women spar eachother. However; a lot of the dojos that due don't pressure the females in sparring as much. There are dojos that train them as they would a man, but many times that's not the case. I have no doubt she came from a school that the male students let her beat up on them.  How else could she have achieved the rank of black belt unless she was given a pass. Maybe I should have titled my thread differently, but there is a problem with double standards when it comes to the sexes in martial arts. The only people it's harming is women themselves.


Sorry but I completely disagree there. Yeah there's probably a few bad clubs who do this but most I've seen women spar the men and any woman black belt is just as good as a male black belt.  Heck in my gym there's women who are European champions who are excellent fighters.

Now I'm not the type who'll cry sexist at any little thing but frankly your post does seem to have a bit of sexism in it


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2017)

Anarax said:


> The example I have was a contrasting exception to my opening statement. I know full and well that Black Belt was neither great not respectful. Sorry for the confusion





Anarax said:


> Unfortunately it does. Granted there are "idiots" as you put it, from both sexes. What I was differentiating was the standard of black belts and training when it comes to the sexes. A lot of dojos don't even let men and women spar eachother. However; a lot of the dojos that due don't pressure the females in sparring as much. There are dojos that train them as they would a man, but many times that's not the case. I have no doubt she came from a school that the male students let her beat up on them.  How else could she have achieved the rank of black belt unless she was given a pass. Maybe I should have titled my thread differently, but there is a problem with double standards when it comes to the sexes in martial arts. The only people it's harming is women themselves.



I think your experiences differ very much from mine, every dojo, gym and class I've ever seen has been mixed allowing men and women to spar against each other, even the MMA ones. It's beneficial for both. I also haven't seen any difference in standards because men and women train together, are tested the same and yes do pressure them. I haven't seen any place that allows the females to beat up the men, why would they? Are the places you seen this happen, I assume you've seen it rather than have just heard about this happening, local to you, countrywide or what? I'm sorry to disagree with you but as I said I've have come across this before, in fact what I've seen is the opposite, males often being rougher on women than other males. Often this is 'justified' by saying it's for their own good.
I wouldn't say there is a problem with double standards in martial arts, many men do feel diffident about sparring with a woman but not to the extent they'd allow a woman to beat them up. I've found places that don't spar hard or do points/no touch sparring for anyone to be more troubling, as I say the norm for most places I've been to is that sparring is done to the standard of the lower grade, the grade being the important decider on the percentage of power used not the gender.


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## Headhunter (Aug 21, 2017)

Another thing here is she was throwing hard kicks okay but you were hitting to the head and obviously hitting hard to the head is more dangerous than hitting to the body so there's that and frankly I don't believe the situation is based on gender. You hear about this is all forms of life someone gives but they can't take that happens in martial arts, in school yard pranks, in cristism at work and it happens with males and females and yeah sure that's a sucky situation you were in but I don't believe it's got anything to do with gender that could easily have happened with a guy or a girl


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## Anarax (Aug 21, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Sorry but I completely disagree there. Yeah there's probably a few bad clubs who do this but most I've seen women spar the men and any woman black belt is just as good as a male black belt.  Heck in my gym there's women who are European champions who are excellent fighters.
> 
> Now I'm not the type who'll cry sexist at any little thing but frankly your post does seem to have a bit of sexism in it



The problem with taking it lightly on women is a failing of the instructors and students, not the women. Most of them probably aren't even aware of the sub-par training they're receiving. Instilling in them a false self-confidence that they can defeat a man is dangerous. Not that a woman can't defeat a man, but those that can't will be in for a rude awakening. If people haven't seen this themselves, that doesn't change the fact it does occur. It's not sexist, it's just reality


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## Anarax (Aug 21, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Another thing here is she was throwing hard kicks okay but you were hitting to the head and obviously hitting hard to the head is more dangerous than hitting to the body so there's that and frankly I don't believe the situation is based on gender. You hear about this is all forms of life someone gives but they can't take that happens in martial arts, in school yard pranks, in cristism at work and it happens with males and females and yeah sure that's a sucky situation you were in but I don't believe it's got anything to do with gender that could easily have happened with a guy or a girl



Where did I say she was only kicking me in the body? She was trying to kick me in the head too


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2017)

Anarax said:


> The problem with taking it lightly on women is a failing of the instructors and students, not the women. Most of them probably aren't even aware of the sub-par training they're receiving. Instilling in them a false self-confidence that they can defeat a man is dangerous. Not that a woman can't defeat a man, but those that can't will be in for a rude awakening. If people haven't seen this themselves, that doesn't change the fact it does occur. It's not sexist, it's just reality



Ok, who is taking it easy on women? have you proof this is happening or is this what you've been told or you are surmising based on a couple of experiences you've had? How do you know they are receiving poor training? Who says these women have a false self confidence? You are speaking as if you know this to be a fact but aren't saying how you know it is. Could it actually be that this woman annoyed you therefore you think all women are badly trained?


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## Headhunter (Aug 21, 2017)

Anarax said:


> The problem with taking it lightly on women is a failing of the instructors and students, not the women. Most of them probably aren't even aware of the sub-par training they're receiving. Instilling in them a false self-confidence that they can defeat a man is dangerous. Not that a woman can't defeat a man, but those that can't will be in for a rude awakening. If people haven't seen this themselves, that doesn't change the fact it does occur. It's not sexist, it's just reality


Frankly how do you know what that woman has and hasn't done in her training. Did you speak to her did she tell you this or is it just baseless assumption? She may frankly just not be a talented fighter. You say she's a taekwondo black belt well maybe she's great at her forms and great at doing the kicks in the air and on the pads and does great self defence 1 step techniques but she just struggle in her sparring. I've seen plenty of people like that there's no shame in it we can't all be amazing at everything and yeah sure some guys may go lighter on women heck I've probably been guilty of it a few times but okay say a guy throws lighter shots? So what you seem to think that heavy sparring is needed to he good you can still spar with small amounts of power and throw them at speed.


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## Anarax (Aug 21, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Frankly how do you know what that woman has and hasn't done in her training. Did you speak to her did she tell you this or is it just baseless assumption? She may frankly just not be a talented fighter. You say she's a taekwondo black belt well maybe she's great at her forms and great at doing the kicks in the air and on the pads and does great self defence 1 step techniques but she just struggle in her sparring. I've seen plenty of people like that there's no shame in it we can't all be amazing at everything and yeah sure some guys may go lighter on women heck I've probably been guilty of it a few times but okay say a guy throws lighter shots? So what you seem to think that heavy sparring is needed to he good you can still spar with small amounts of power and throw them at speed.



She made the point to tell everyone in class she's a "fighter" and is "amazing" at sparring. She also shared with us the hard training she received at her previous school.


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## Headhunter (Aug 21, 2017)

Anarax said:


> She made the point to tell everyone in class she's a "fighter" and is "amazing" at sparring. She also shared with us the hard training she received at her previous school.


Hard training? What does hard training mean...that could mean anything. It could mean they did a lot of press ups and cardio work, it could mean they ran their forms hundreds of times a night.

Also maybe she is good under taekwondo rules but I'm assuming this is a different style and again I doubt it's anything to do with gender. A lot of taekwondo people have that issue with their hands being low.

Tbh this is starting to sound like you're just pissed off you got told off. Suck it up move on.

Look this girl doesn't sound like a nice person. Yeah that happens but i think it's unfair to label all women martial artists on one sparring session that upset you


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## Anarax (Aug 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, who is taking it easy on women? have you proof this is happening or is this what you've been told or you are surmising based on a couple of experiences you've had? How do you know they are receiving poor training? Who says these women have a false self confidence? You are speaking as if you know this to be a fact but aren't saying how you know it is. Could it actually be that this woman annoyed you therefore you think all women are badly trained?



I obviously think that, hence my opening statement saying almost all are respectful and great martial artists. Read first, then respond is the usual order. I've sparred many women and have had great experiences with them. Yes I was annoyed by checking her kicks and countering her, then her breaking down in front of everyone. That sound annoying for me?


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## Headhunter (Aug 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, who is taking it easy on women? have you proof this is happening or is this what you've been told or you are surmising based on a couple of experiences you've had? How do you know they are receiving poor training? Who says these women have a false self confidence? You are speaking as if you know this to be a fact but aren't saying how you know it is. Could it actually be that this woman annoyed you therefore you think all women are badly trained?


This is happening a lot lately people thinking they know what's the truth with 0 actual proof.


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## Headhunter (Aug 21, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I obviously think that, hence my opening statement saying almost all are respectful and great martial artists. Read first, then respond is the usual order. I've sparred many women and have had great experiences with them. Yes I was annoyed by checking her kicks and countering her, then her breaking down in front of everyone. That sound annoying for me?


Yeah you said that but then contradict yourself saying women aren't getting trained properly. And yeah it's annoying but that's life get over it, toughen up. There's more important things to worry about than an annoying sparring session


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## Anarax (Aug 21, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Hard training? What does hard training mean...that could mean anything. It could mean they did a lot of press ups and cardio work, it could mean they ran their forms hundreds of times a night.
> 
> 
> Also maybe she is good under taekwondo rules but I'm assuming this is a different style and again I doubt it's anything to do with gender. A lot of taekwondo people have that issue with their hands being low.
> ...



Told off? I was never told off. Tbh, this thread was supposed to open the forum up for discussion about similar experiences. However; people just want to bring emotion into it and get offended. Sounds like you need to look at situations more objectively and check your emotion and sensitivity at the door


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Also maybe she is good under taekwondo rules



and why was she wearing a TKD black belt in a karate class?

You get people who think they are greater than they are, you get boasters, it's life. It's not a gender issue but one of someone thinking they are something they'd aren't or are actually far less self confident than they want you to think, again not a gender thing. Actually the OP made a point of telling us that he wasn't a beginner actually though he was a white belt in karate, and had lots of experience so........

There's always the issue of course of how hard is too hard, one person's hard maybe another's well that wasn't very hard! Again though the OP made a point of matching her 'hardness', why? Would it have been difficult to say look let's calm this down a bit or would that seem like giving in to a woman? if a white belt is sparring a black belt, regardless of gender one goes at the pace and force that a white belt can take, not too easy but just enough to challenge the white belt. The black belt has more experience, more control. If they are coming on too hard then stop *you don't escalate it.* 

I also bet I've sparred with more men who go harder than women, I've sparred with more men than women for whom sparring with women is a problem for their egos, this is in karate and grappling.


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## Anarax (Aug 21, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah you said that but then contradict yourself saying women aren't getting trained properly. And yeah it's annoying but that's life get over it, toughen up. There's more important things to worry about than an annoying sparring session



I said most places aren't teaching them under the same conditions as men. I didn't say all women, but it is a problem in martial arts.


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## Headhunter (Aug 21, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Told off? I was never told off. Tbh, this thread was supposed to open the forum up for discussion about similar experiences. However; people just want to bring emotion into it and get offended. Sounds like you need to look at situations more objectively and check your emotion and sensitivity at the door


LOL here we go again. What the heck have I got to be emotional about. You tell us a story but don't like it if people don't agree with you. If I think you're wrong I'm going to tell you you're wrong sorry if you don't like it....actually nah I'm not. That's how this site works it's not randomly agreeing with every single thing. I'm discussing your opinion on women's training. I've never insulted you I've not called you names I've simply said my opinion.


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Told off? I was never told off. Tbh, this thread was supposed to open the forum up for discussion about similar experiences. However; people just want to bring emotion into it and get offended. Sounds like you need to look at situations more objectively and check your emotion and sensitivity at the door



Whoa, steady there. What if we haven't had the same experience though which is what we are telling you. There's no emotion here from us, I guarantee it, no one is offended so you may want to take back your comments. You made statements but they are actually opinions, if you don't like them being challenged then I'm afraid it's not us that is being sensitive.


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## Headhunter (Aug 21, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I said most places aren't teaching them under the same conditions as men. I didn't say all women, but it is a problem in martial arts.


Well I've been training martial arts for over 40 years all over the world in numerous styles and never seen it


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I said most places aren't teaching them under the same conditions as men. I didn't say all women, but it is a problem in martial arts.



No, it's not. You think it is but it's not. It may be a 'problem' in some classes, with some instructors but not in martial arts.


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## Headhunter (Aug 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> and why was she wearing a TKD black belt in a karate class?
> 
> You get people who think they are greater than they are, you get boasters, it's life. It's not a gender issue but one of someone thinking they are something they'd aren't or are actually far less self confident than they want you to think, again not a gender thing. Actually the OP made a point of telling us that he wasn't a beginner actually though he was a white belt in karate, and had lots of experience so........
> 
> ...


I might be wrong but I don't think she was wearing the black belt all the op said was she is a black belt. But yeah I never buy into the whole pass it down the line or if you hit me hard I'll hit you harder rubbish that just causes more problems. If I ever get hit hard I'll continue fighting at my same pace and maybe I'll up the speed and frequency of my attacks but never the power or if it's to much I'll tell them to lighten up or simply step away from the spar and refuse to carry on with that partner unless they agree to calm it down. I have nothing to prove to anyone to risk getting my head smashed in and I don't want to potentially hurt someone just for a bit of ego


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## Headhunter (Aug 21, 2017)

Look you want advice this is my advice. Before each spar ask your partner how hard they want the intensity to be if the instructor hasn't already told you what he wants. If they say light sparring then great do it and if they turn up the power tell them we need to keep it light like agreed. If they say they want to go hard that doesn't mean you have to try and knock them out but it means you both know that they may go in hard and if they do complain you can just say they were okay with going hard. But personally I think going in and throwing full contact shots is a waste of time anyway


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2017)

PS, I've been training for over 40 years as well, karate, MMA MT, BJJ as well as lots of other bits and bobs, I was in the Royal Air Force so travelled around and was lucky enough to try all sorts of things and I'm female.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well I've been training martial arts for over 40 years all over the world in numerous styles and never seen it



There isnt as many women in martial arts as men and if you have 20 kg on a girl you have to adapt your training. They dont have the depth of expertise to draw off.

We find that issue in our club training fighters. If we had a heap of girls training for fights they could spar and train a bit more realistically. 

And yeah I have sparred a few girls who go flat out all the time.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Look you want advice this is my advice. Before each spar ask your partner how hard they want the intensity to be if the instructor hasn't already told you what he wants. If they say light sparring then great do it and if they turn up the power tell them we need to keep it light like agreed. If they say they want to go hard that doesn't mean you have to try and knock them out but it means you both know that they may go in hard and if they do complain you can just say they were okay with going hard. But personally I think going in and throwing full contact shots is a waste of time anyway


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2017)

drop bear said:


> There isnt as many women in martial arts as men and if you have 20 kg on a girl you have to adapt your training. They dont have the depth of expertise to draw off.
> 
> We find that issue in our club training fighters. If we had a heap of girls training for fights they could spar and train a bit more realistically.
> 
> And yeah I have sparred a few girls who go flat out all the time.



In TKD and karate though there are more women than you'll find in MMA or MT, classes are often balanced equally between men and women. I did quite a lot of research on this because I could see and we all knew there were a lot of women in these styles so we were looking to recruit them to come across and try MMA. The karate style I did had a lot of women training as well as instructors.


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2017)

drop bear said:


>




Not a gender thing though


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 21, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Over the years I've sparred many women. Just about all of them were respectful and great martial artists. However; there are those few that wish to take things up a few notches, which I'm all for. The problem lies in their urge to want to up the intensity but when you increases intensity they say it isn't fair.
> 
> One example I had was with a Tae Kwon Do black belt that started taking a Karate class that I recently started. I was only a white belt, but I had previous training from other systems that she wasn't aware of. The round starts and she has great speed and technique, but telegraphs every kick. She had very little to no hand skills and was dropping them on every kick. I'm able to check almost everything she throws at me, so I counter attack with very little power. She starts to kick harder but now she's telegraphing even worse than before. I decided to up my striking power to match her own. We wear headgear in sparring and are discouraged from striking the face, only the headgear. She winds up her kick and begins to throw it, I check it as a I deliver a firm strike to her headgear. I feel her getting angrier as she starts kicking harder. I'm able to land the same counter on her multiple times. She eventually loses all composure and tells me I'm hitting to hard. She tells the instructor and he tells both of us to ease up. I was disgusted by her attitude and the lack of discipline a black belt from another system had.
> 
> I didn't walk away with any regrets given I just responded to what was thrown at me. I'm curious if anyone else has had a similar experience? Or how they would have handled that situation?


Most likely she'd been able to outclass others in her previous training, and rarely (or never) had to deal with being outclassed. If she was used to it, she wouldn't have been frustrated.

I've run into guys like that, too. More guys than gals, in fact, but that's maybe just due to population distribution in MA.


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## Anarax (Aug 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Whoa, steady there. What if we haven't had the same experience though which is what we are telling you. There's no emotion here from us, I guarantee it, no one is offended so you may want to take back your comments. You made statements but they are actually opinions, if you don't like them being challenged then I'm afraid it's not us that is being sensitive.



Tez 3, I apologize for my previous reply. I got your response confused with someone else. You've been respectful, I apologize for the sending you the wrong message. Thank you for your insight.


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 21, 2017)

Sparring is always a bit difficult for me at first because I'm typically friends with everyone in the dojo. I often worry about harming them and go too soft. 

Complete strangers however I don't care at all. 

Sifu told me to spar as if they are a stranger but that is difficult for me. I am very defensive with friends and family so I am just naturally careful.

In a fight though, he told me to be as the ocean. Not caring what is in my way, just do what you are going to do and that's it. There is a middle ground here that has to be found with everyone and for some it is more difficult.


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## Kiron (Aug 22, 2017)

There is no much difference about the sparring with women. Unless she is pretty skilled that he can go with the flow with her sparring partner who is a man or the man is pretty skilled that he can control the whole fight without hurting the woman.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 22, 2017)

Oddly enough, they stick me with women, and tell them it's OK to try to kill me.


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## shihansmurf (Aug 22, 2017)

I spar with them the same way I do the male students. I'm mindful of the size/strength difference but if the partner wants to go light I do, if they want to swing for the fences then that is fine as well. I've got a pretty good right cross from my boxing days and I find that most of the time people figure put pretty quickly how to regulate their hitting power after getting stung a couple of times. 

Treating a female differently because of their gender sends the message that their rank and skill isn't equal to a male's and I don't believe that. Again, I am mindful of size and strength differences as I am with a male that is smaller than I am but I treat a female brown belt as I would a male brown belt. To do other wise is disrespectful.

Just my view,
Mark


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 22, 2017)

Anarax said:


> She made the point to tell everyone in class she's a "fighter" and is "amazing" at sparring. She also shared with us the hard training she received at her previous school.



Anything else you haven't shared yet that might change responses so far?

I am also curious if since you were obviously superior, did you get her off to the side and offer to show her what she is doing that is so wrong?  Even if she was inappropriately angry, if she is anywhere near a good MA,  she has to realize that she is either doing something wrong, or you are doing something very good.

And if she is that good an MA, she surely would want to know.  How else is she going to have a chance to score on you in the future?


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 22, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I said most places aren't teaching them under the same conditions as men. I didn't say all women, but it is a problem in martial arts.



Cites?


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Most likely she'd been able to outclass others in her previous training, and rarely (or never) had to deal with being outclassed. If she was used to it, she wouldn't have been frustrated.
> 
> I've run into guys like that, too. More guys than gals, in fact, but that's maybe just due to population distribution in MA.



I sparred on the wee


Ironbear24 said:


> Sparring is always a bit difficult for me at first because I'm typically friends with everyone in the dojo. I often worry about harming them and go too soft.
> 
> Complete strangers however I don't care at all.
> 
> ...



Iron sharpens iron.

 Create a professional mental attitude. Where your input creates the martial artist they will be.

We have some awful drills for our fighters. And we have female fighters. And they can scream and cry during those drills.

That that feels terrible to just keep torturing someone like that.

But it is not about my feelings. The job has to get done.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I sparred on the wee


I'm not sure I want to know what that means, DB.


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## Kiron (Aug 22, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Anything else you haven't shared yet that might change responses so far?
> 
> I am also curious if since you were obviously superior, did you get her off to the side and offer to show her what she is doing that is so wrong?  Even if she was inappropriately angry, if she is anywhere near a good MA,  she has to realize that she is either doing something wrong, or you are doing something very good.
> 
> And if she is that good an MA, she surely would want to know.  How else is she going to have a chance to score on you in the future?


I agree with you!


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## Anarax (Aug 22, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Anything else you haven't shared yet that might change responses so far?
> 
> I am also curious if since you were obviously superior, did you get her off to the side and offer to show her what she is doing that is so wrong?  Even if she was inappropriately angry, if she is anywhere near a good MA,  she has to realize that she is either doing something wrong, or you are doing something very good.
> 
> And if she is that good an MA, she surely would want to know.  How else is she going to have a chance to score on you in the future?



Can't tell if you're being condescending or genuine. Regardless, she wanted nothing to do with me afterwards. I approached her after practice and she raised her hands in a defensive position like I wanted to harm her.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Can't tell if you're being condescending or genuine. Regardless, she wanted nothing to do with me afterwards. I approached her after practice and she raised her hands in a defensive position like I wanted to harm her.



Yep been there before as well.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Can't tell if you're being condescending or genuine. Regardless, she wanted nothing to do with me afterwards. I approached her after practice and she raised her hands in a defensive position like I wanted to harm her.



He's being genuine, have you looked at the whole incident from a detached viewpoint as if you were watching someone else? Are there things you could have said or done differently that would have diffused the situation or do you believe you are totally in the right? Bear in mind before you answer that you believe there's a problem with women in martial arts, that there's a problem with the way they are treated and the way they train which is not substantiated by anyone else's experience in martial arts.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 23, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Can't tell if you're being condescending or genuine. Regardless, she wanted nothing to do with me afterwards. I approached her after practice and she raised her hands in a defensive position like I wanted to harm her.



Sorry if I came across as being genuine in a condescending way .  But I really think we can overcome people's lack of MA knowledge by a different approach than "You give 75%, I've got 85% waiting for you."

But it looks like you did and if she reacted that way, let your instructor know (if you haven't already), and have as little to do with her as possible.  I mean totally avoid if possible.  She sounds like she is having an identity crisis which might cause her to try and beat you in any way she can, fair or not, with help or not.

All that said, it might be helpful in future posts to be sure to let us know all things that might bear on the situation and therefore our response.


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## Anarax (Aug 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> He's being genuine, have you looked at the whole incident from a detached viewpoint as if you were watching someone else? Are there things you could have said or done differently that would have diffused the situation or do you believe you are totally in the right? Bear in mind before you answer that you believe there's a problem with women in martial arts, that there's a problem with the way they are treated and the way they train which is not substantiated by anyone else's experience in martial arts.



I have looked at it from another point of view. I'm not ashamed nor regret how I handled the situation. I don't ask my partner to lighten up if they wish to go hard, being pressured is a part of sparring. It's good to learn how to deal with different energies and tempos as well. However; I didn't feel tremendous pride over what occurred, I feel indifferent about the whole experience. In sparring it's great when both people can walk away having learned something. I know I didn't learn anything,  but maybe she did. 

I shouldn't have said that "most" places take it easy on women. However; I've witnessed this numerous times with multiple students and multiple schools. I can understand if other people haven't witnessed this, and I'm glad not all schools have this problem. It is still a problem that occurs though, and as MAs we should strive to improve it. When I started MA I would hold back on a female students foolishly thinking I was doing them a favor. Who was I really helping though? That doesn't mean that I want to blast women as hard as I can, but treat them as I would a male student of the same rank. It's disrespectful to them and their training to treat them as less. I want to clarify that isn't the women's fault nor should they be blamed. However; it's how the instructors, students and schools don't provide them with the training that they provide the male MAs. I have spoken to other instructors and students about this problem, some have seen the same thing. I am not alone in witnessing this probelm


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## Anarax (Aug 23, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Sorry if I came across as being genuine in a condescending way .  But I really think we can overcome people's lack of MA knowledge by a different approach than "You give 75%, I've got 85% waiting for you."
> 
> But it looks like you did and if she reacted that way, let your instructor know (if you haven't already), and have as little to do with her as possible.  I mean totally avoid if possible.  She sounds like she is having an identity crisis which might cause her to try and beat you in any way she can, fair or not, with help or not.
> 
> All that said, it might be helpful in future posts to be sure to let us know all things that might bear on the situation and therefore our response.



Yes, I approached her hoping we as MAs we could help each other learn something new. I'm sure she could have shared something with me that I could improve on as well. Unfortunately, she wasn't having any of it and wanted nothing to do with me. Yes, I should have shared more about the experience and provide details to paint a more complete picture.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> He's being genuine, have you looked at the whole incident from a detached viewpoint as if you were watching someone else? Are there things you could have said or done differently that would have diffused the situation or do you believe you are totally in the right? Bear in mind before you answer that you believe there's a problem with women in martial arts, that there's a problem with the way they are treated and the way they train which is not substantiated by anyone else's experience in martial arts.



No. That is my experience as well. Women tend to power up.


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## Tez3 (Aug 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I feel indifferent about the whole experience.



Dare I suggest that's not how you feel because you wouldn't haven't posted about it otherwise.



Anarax said:


> However; I've witnessed this numerous times with multiple students and multiple schools.



Just how many? How many places have you trained at and why so many? Do you travel a lot or do you just move places because you don't like where you are or feel you should just go somewhere else?


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2017)

But anyway.  If you are better than a girl who is throwing bombs then I would suggest trying to avoid their punches and kicks. 

As I have said I have girls that try to take my head off.  That is why I have footwork. Move and just patter away. 

If it is a guy. I kick his leg to death.


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## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I have looked at it from another point of view. I'm not ashamed nor regret how I handled the situation. I don't ask my partner to lighten up if they wish to go hard, being pressured is a part of sparring. It's good to learn how to deal with different energies and tempos as well. However; I didn't feel tremendous pride over what occurred, I feel indifferent about the whole experience. In sparring it's great when both people can walk away having learned something. I know I didn't learn anything,  but maybe she did.
> 
> I shouldn't have said that "most" places take it easy on women. However; I've witnessed this numerous times with multiple students and multiple schools. I can understand if other people haven't witnessed this, and I'm glad not all schools have this problem. It is still a problem that occurs though, and as MAs we should strive to improve it. When I started MA I would hold back on a female students foolishly thinking I was doing them a favor. Who was I really helping though? That doesn't mean that I want to blast women as hard as I can, but treat them as I would a male student of the same rank. It's disrespectful to them and their training to treat them as less. I want to clarify that isn't the women's fault nor should they be blamed. However; it's how the instructors, students and schools don't provide them with the training that they provide the male MAs. I have spoken to other instructors and students about this problem, some have seen the same thing. I am not alone in witnessing this probelm


Well you obviously don't feel Indiferent about it do you


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## Anarax (Aug 24, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well you obviously don't feel Indiferent about it do you



It's difficult to tell if you're being condescending or genuine. Either way, indifferent as in not proud nor ashamed over what occurred. Emotionally indifferent, hope that clarifies it.


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## Anarax (Aug 24, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Dare I suggest that's not how you feel because you wouldn't haven't posted about it otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> Just how many? How many places have you trained at and why so many? Do you travel a lot or do you just move places because you don't like where you are or feel you should just go somewhere else?



As I replied to hh, emotionally indifferent about the situation. I didn't feel proud nor ashamed about the experience. I cross trained for a while so I learned multiple systems at once. I was also fortunate enough to be apart of two groups that would travel to other affiliated gyms and roll or spar with their guys. The places that I trained at also had other programs and classes, thus I got to observe other people training as well. I'm speaking from experience about the problems at MA schools.


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## Tez3 (Aug 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> As I replied to hh, emotionally indifferent about the situation. I didn't feel proud nor ashamed about the experience. I cross trained for a while so I learned multiple systems at once. I was also fortunate enough to be apart of two groups that would travel to other affiliated gyms and roll or spar with their guys. The places that I trained at also had other programs and classes, thus I got to observe other people training as well. I'm speaking from experience about the problems at MA schools.



Your posts belie your 'emotional indifference'. You may have been to a few places within travelling distance of where you are but you are being told by people from a much wider distance as well as in different countries that what you think to be true actually isn't.

I'm not sure why you think people are being condescending to you, is this a common thing with you? perhaps your interaction with the person in your OP may have been caused by your inability to understand where people are coming from.


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## Anarax (Aug 24, 2017)

I have no emotional feelings towards the woman I sparred nor the situation. I have logical conclusions of her and the situation, but no emotional investment. We traveled to many gyms not just a few, and trained with them. There was a network of gyms that were either affiliates or friends with our instructor.  We would travel to gyms that were both close and far away. We would usually hold up in a hotel overnight or travel to multiple gyms on one outing. 

I'm sure you can understand the complexities of reading a post vs talking to someone. Tone of voice, body language and overall attitude isn't available to read in a post. Thus, when 1) a new user you don't have any previous experience with uses odd wording, 2) when someone you have experience with has been emotional and disrespectful before. It's reasonable to think they are being condescending when posts are written intentionally or unintentionally condescending.


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## Anarax (Aug 24, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Your posts belie your 'emotional indifference'. You may have been to a few places within travelling distance of where you are but you are being told by people from a much wider distance as well as in different countries that what you think to be true actually isn't.
> 
> I'm not sure why you think people are being condescending to you, is this a common thing with you? perhaps your interaction with the person in your OP may have been caused by your inability to understand where people are coming from.



I forgot to reply to your quote, the above reply was meant for you. I thought the last sentence of your first paragraph was a question, I now realized it's a statement. Scientifically it's much more difficult to prove something doesn't exist, yet it's much easier to prove something does exist. A statement like "that never happens" or "that's impossible" is inaccurate. As I've stated before, I've experienced this problem numerous times, thus that makes it a reality. For someone else to say that I'm wrong or what I believe isn't true is stating an absolute. An absolute they couldn't possibly know, given they haven't stepped foot in every MA school. It would be as inaccurate for me to say this problem is everywhere in every MA school.


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## jobo (Aug 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I forgot to reply to your quote, the above reply was meant for you. I thought the last sentence of your first paragraph was a question, I now realized it's a statement. Scientifically it's much more difficult to prove something doesn't exist, yet it's much easier to prove something does exist. A statement like "that never happens" or "that's impossible" is inaccurate. As I've stated before, I've experienced this problem numerous times, thus that makes it a reality. For someone else to say that I'm wrong or what I believe isn't true is stating an absolute. An absolute they couldn't possibly know, given they haven't stepped foot in every MA school. It would be as inaccurate for me to say this problem is everywhere in every MA school.



take no notice they are just picking on the new guy, they do it a lot.
yes i think women are generaly allowed to get away with things that males would be punished for, i get the same thing not just with women but also wimpy blokes who hand it out but get all indignant if its returned. 

we have one very strong woman who punches really very hard if you hit back at even half of that, she has an asthma attack and has to sit the rest of the lesson out


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## Tez3 (Aug 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> take no notice they are just picking on the new guy, they do it a lot.
> yes i think women are generaly allowed to get away with things that males would be punished for, i get the same thing not just with women but also wimpy blokes who hand it out but get all indignant if its returned.
> 
> we have one very strong woman who punches really very hard if you hit back at even half of that, she has an asthma attack and has to sit the rest of the lesson out



If asking questions is 'picking on someone' then you must have a very hard life. Does someone asking if you want brown or white bread constitute bullying in your eyes then? I assume you'd like us to censor our questions so that we don't upset you anymore.


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## jobo (Aug 24, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> If asking questions is 'picking on someone' then you must have a very hard life. Does someone asking if you want brown or white bread constitute bullying in your eyes then? I assume you'd like us to censor our questions so that we don't upset you anymore.[/QUOT
> you attacking the guy in you passive aggressive way


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## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I have no emotional feelings towards the woman I sparred nor the situation. I have logical conclusions of her and the situation, but no emotional investment. We traveled to many gyms not just a few, and trained with them. There was a network of gyms that were either affiliates or friends with our instructor.  We would travel to gyms that were both close and far away. We would usually hold up in a hotel overnight or travel to multiple gyms on one outing.
> 
> I'm sure you can understand the complexities of reading a post vs talking to someone. Tone of voice, body language and overall attitude isn't available to read in a post. Thus, when 1) a new user you don't have any previous experience with uses odd wording, 2) when someone you have experience with has been emotional and disrespectful before. It's reasonable to think they are being condescending when posts are written intentionally or unintentionally condescending.


No ones being condescending. This is a discussion page you post something people will discuss it. No one hear has been disrespectful in any real way as there's rules against it


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## Anarax (Aug 24, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> No ones being condescending. This is a discussion page you post something people will discuss it. No one hear has been disrespectful in any real way as there's rules against it



Yes, you have, not that I care if you have. You post reply after reply then finally share your opinion, which is what the thread was all about to begin with. Tez and I are having a conversation and you wish to drop your little half-assed passive aggressive comment after you have already stated your opinion. You even reply to tez on my behalf clarifying something about what I posted. Now you're addressing something I said to tez again. Learn when to bow out of a conversation especially when you have nothing else worthwhile to contribute


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## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Yes, you have, not that I care if you have. You post reply after reply then finally share your opinion, which is what the thread was all about to begin with. Tez and I are having a conversation and you wish to drop your little half-assed passive aggressive comment after you have already stated your opinion. You even reply to tez on my behalf clarifying something about what I posted. Now you're addressing something I said to tez again. Learn when to bow out of a conversation especially when you have nothing else worthwhile to contribute


Okay buddy you keep crying and having a tantrum lol you're not going to like this forum much if you actually believe that was disrespectful. But not that you care of course and you're not upset at all right. I'm going to post whatever I want so deal with it.


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## MA_Student (Aug 28, 2017)

How to handle it? Suck it up move on...what else can you do about it..it's sparring **** happens


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## JP3 (Aug 28, 2017)

Anarax, I've got a question which I can't figure out what's been posted so far. I may have missed it, and if so, just let me know.

In the O/P you described the situation, and how the thing seemed to escalate, with harder and harder techniques being exchanged, etc.

My question is this... Did anyone ever pause to ask a question, or to offer instruction?

Just curious, but this was an obvious teachning moment, definitely for your training/sparring partner, as for her sparring defense work vs. counterpunching people..... and maybe for you as an instance where your ability to teach could be improved?

I've had this type of thing happen before, and back int he day, if they wanted to just amp it up, I'd answer them, going to the same place they would and ending up hurting feelings, marking someone up, generally not being a win-win training situation.

Note:  You can "lose" a sparring match and yet still "win" in the gaining of knowledge.

What I've found is a better way is to point out, right when it starts to amp up, that it IS getting more intense... pause just for a moment to make sure both sides are very aware that things are turning in that direction, and then literally stop for a short time, perhaps 10 seconds, and verbally recognize what's happening (she's getting frustrated as she can't make contact, you counter and pop her) and use the moment to teach her how to deal with it. Dealing with it could be anything at all which would improve what she's doing, such as recognizing (she may not even be aware) that she's telegraphing, or making sure the person knows where they leave an opening as they execute a kick/punch/technique, etc.... or how to move to set-up better... whatever it is.

So, did you talk about it at any point, or only after?


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## Anarax (Aug 28, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Anarax, I've got a question which I can't figure out what's been posted so far. I may have missed it, and if so, just let me know.
> 
> In the O/P you described the situation, and how the thing seemed to escalate, with harder and harder techniques being exchanged, etc.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your thoughtful question. The more of her kicks I checked the more power she kicked with. I was aware of what was happening, but I didn't say anything. She was a higher belt than me at the time, thus I didn't feel it was appropriate giving direction to a higher rank in that particular system.

I couldn't agree more, I learn the most when I spar someone more skilled than I. Personally I don't walk away from sparring thinking I've won or lost. However; post-sparring I assess and think what do I need to improve on? Yes I tried to speak to her afterwards, but that wasn't productive either.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 28, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Thank you for your thoughtful question. The more of her kicks I checked the more power she kicked with. I was aware of what was happening, but I didn't say anything. She was a higher belt than me at the time, thus I didn't feel it was appropriate giving direction to a higher rank in that particular system.
> 
> I couldn't agree more, I learn the most when I spar someone more skilled than I. Personally I don't walk away from sparring thinking I've won or lost. However; post-sparring I assess and think what do I need to improve on? Yes I tried to speak to her afterwards, but that wasn't productive either.


This is one of the areas where TMA is weak, IMO (as a TMA practitioner). There's a reticence to give advice to those who started before us (the primary reason they are a more advanced rank). Remember this as you advance, and ask advice from those of lower rank who can teach you something.


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2017)

Anarax said:


> One example I had was with a Tae Kwon Do black belt that started taking a Karate class that I recently started. I was only a white belt





Anarax said:


> She was a higher belt than me at the time,



Surely though at the time you were both white belts? Did she wear her TKD black belt in a karate class?


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This is one of the areas where TMA is weak, IMO (as a TMA practitioner). There's a reticence to give advice to those who started before us (the primary reason they are a more advanced rank). Remember this as you advance, and ask advice from those of lower rank who can teach you something.



Some people dont want to hear it even if they have just been flogged. Giving advice after sparring is kind of an art in itself. Personally I mostly dont bother any more. If they ask I tell them. If they dont. It can be a mystery.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Some people dont want to hear it even if they have just been flogged. Giving advice after sparring is kind of an art in itself. Personally I mostly dont bother any more. If they ask I tell them. If they dont. It can be a mystery.


True, there's a lot of individual - and ego - involved. I just think there's a common inhibition in TMA (at least, as I've experienced it) against giving advice to those with higher rank. In part, it is rightly earned, as early on the advice most of us would give to even someone with a year or two of experience would be crap. Later, though, many students are capable of useful feedback. My technique gets better when students tell me which throw, takedown, or lock felt more complete or just barely managed to work. And likewise, when someone tells me the technique just overwhelmed them, who doesn't normally just give in to a technique because they "should".


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## Anarax (Aug 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Some people dont want to hear it even if they have just been flogged. Giving advice after sparring is kind of an art in itself. Personally I mostly dont bother any more. If they ask I tell them. If they dont. It can be a mystery.



One important thing I left out, she's a dirty fighter. She tried to kick me hard in the groin multiple times, tried. When she was unable to break my posture in a clinch, she dug her nails into the back of my neck and tore into it. 

Given her attitude and intent, I didn't feel it was a good idea to give her advice. In addition to her higher rank, it was an awkward situation. It was a long round, I'm recalling more details the more I think about it.


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2017)

We don't have room for more than one pair to spar at a time, it's annoying but can't be helped but it does mean an instructor is watching all the time along with the other students. Feedback is easily given as well as teaching people who want to corner fighters how to 'watch' in a way that will be helpful to their fighter. If one is ramping it up beyond the level decreed by the instructor then that too is easily sorted.


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2017)

Anarax said:


> One important thing I left out, she's a dirty fighter. She tried to kick me hard in the groin multiple times, tried. When she was unable to break my posture in a clinch, she dug her nails into the back of my neck and tore into it.
> 
> Given her attitude and intent, I didn't feel it was a good idea to give her advice. In addition to her higher rank, it was an awkward situation. It was a long round, I'm recalling more details the more I think about it.



Why didn't you mention this in your OP? It changes the whole situation from the one you described and turns into one that should have been reported to the instructor immediately. It also makes the sparring you did change from her head kicking you to a clinch fight, which was it?
Why do you keep saying she's a higher rank? If her rank is in TKD it doesn't carry over into karate. Is she a higher rank than you in karate?


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## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

Anarax said:


> The problem with taking it lightly on women is a failing of the instructors and students, not the women. Most of them probably aren't even aware of the sub-par training they're receiving. Instilling in them a false self-confidence that they can defeat a man is dangerous. Not that a woman can't defeat a man, but those that can't will be in for a rude awakening. If people haven't seen this themselves, that doesn't change the fact it does occur. It's not sexist, it's just reality



In the span of 20 years, I've only knocked out 2 women during sparring. Is that good or bad?


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