# Defense or Offense?



## lklawson (Nov 10, 2010)

When you teach knife, what do you like to teach first, Defense or Offense, and why?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Drac (Nov 10, 2010)

lklawson said:


> When you teach knife, what do you like to teach first, Defense or Offense


 
Defense



lklawson said:


> and why?


 
For those time when you dont have a knife on you and someone pulls one..


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## Skpotamus (Nov 11, 2010)

The first thing we teach is empty hand defense.  Actual knife duels aren't real common in my area (although at least one has happened recently, but they're pretty rare).  These incorporate getting intermediary tools into play, sticks, magazines, rocks, bottles etc to help you defend against the knife.  

After that, access drills to get the knife into play while you're fighting (grappling range, on the ground, etc), for after you've dealt with the knife attack coming at you (going for your own knife too soon is a great way to get cut).  

After that we go through offensive drills for knife work.  Going through cut sequences.  Targets, etc.  

After that we get into some knife vs knife defensive work, but that's mostly for playtime, a lot of our empty hand stuff works well with the knives out too.  

We spend the vast majority of our time (probably 90%) on knife defense.


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## tim_stl (Nov 11, 2010)

offense.  defense is predicated on offense; any defensive technique will start with 'if you are attacked like this...'  it important to know how a weapon is 'best' used, so that you know how to thwart it.



tim


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## Thesemindz (Nov 11, 2010)

Offense.

It's no different from unarmed combat in this respect. All defense begins with the attack. You can't properly understand how to defend against a weapon, whether it's a knife, a punch, or someone spitting in your face, unless you understand how and why that weapon is used.

I don't teach a kick defense before I teach the kick attack. I don't teach a knife defense before I teach a knife attack. Even if we put all other considerations aside, how are the students supposed to drill the technique if they don't know how to do a proper attack. That's part of being a good uke too.


-Rob


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 11, 2010)

It's hard to defend against something you don't understand how to use.
Sean


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## MJS (Nov 11, 2010)

lklawson said:


> When you teach knife, what do you like to teach first, Defense or Offense, and why?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
Defense.  The majority of the knife stuff that I teach is pretty much all based on the FMAs.  While there are many arts out there that do focus on the offensive side of the blade, Remy Presas frowned upon teaching alot of offensive knife work.  We do have various drills that we teach with the blade, ie: blade vs. blade, blade vs. stick, etc., that are taught as just that...drills.  However, if you think about it, it is offensive knife work.  

The more advanced students, should be capable of exploring and finding things on their own, as far as the offensive knife stuff goes.  I mean, if ya think about it, any of the drills and/or empty hand stuff that we do, can easily be applied to the blade.  So yes, its in there, just not as visable as other arts.


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## Skpotamus (Nov 12, 2010)

tim_stl said:


> offense.  defense is predicated on offense; any defensive technique will start with 'if you are attacked like this...'  it important to know how a weapon is 'best' used, so that you know how to thwart it.
> tim



How a weapon is best used and how you'll see it used by an attacker are not the same thing, IME.  Everything I've read and seen points to the common street knife attacks being the psycho stab and the sewing machine (strong arm pumping the knife into the person's stomach area) style attacks.  IE, untrained responses to rage when they've got a knife handy.  

It's kind of like learning to defend a jab, cross and hook, then seeing people throw barroom haymakers at each other in street fights.  An actual cross in a street fight is a rarity.


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## Ken Pfrenger (Nov 12, 2010)

I am firmly in neither camp Since much of the knife work I do is more along the lines of a traditional dueling style, offence(spelled correctly in this case) and defence(also spelled correctly) have an equal role...perhaps I lean towards offence a bit more but more out of practical reasons than dogmatic ones. It is nice to have everyone using their blade with a certain degree of skill from the start. Not saying that it is the only way but for me it works better.


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## tim_stl (Nov 12, 2010)

Skpotamus said:


> How a weapon is best used and how you'll see it used by an attacker are not the same thing, IME.  Everything I've read and seen points to the common street knife attacks being the psycho stab and the sewing machine (strong arm pumping the knife into the person's stomach area) style attacks.  IE, untrained responses to rage when they've got a knife handy.



i'm not saying that you should _only _learn to defend against 'trained' attacks.  similarly, you shouldn't _only _learn to defend against a sewing machine attack.  i want my students to immediately understand just how things can go horribly wrong for the defender (which is what is 'best' for the attacker).  the basic defenses against a knife that are designed with these possibilities in mind, and it's been my experience that teaching them what to avoid first helps them get the mechanics for the defense down more quickly.

tim


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## Yoshin9 (Nov 12, 2010)

Defense because the majority of students don't carry knives and the majority of attackers who use knives don't use any fancy knife martial art, it's all slash and stab.

For Knife offense I like the FMAs but there is a good number of FMA knife defenses I don't care for. Too much blade grabbing and arm against blade disarms.


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2010)

Yoshin9 said:


> Defense because the majority of students don't carry knives and the majority of attackers who use knives don't use any fancy knife martial art, it's all slash and stab.
> 
> For Knife offense I like the FMAs but there is a good number of FMA knife defenses I don't care for. Too much blade grabbing and arm against blade disarms.


 
Grabbing the blade:  Not sure who's doing that, but thats suicide IMO. LOL.  For clarification, I'm assuming you're talking about wrapping your entire hand around the blade?

Blade against arm disarms:  Nothing wrong with that IMO, providing of course you're a) disarming against the flat of the blade and b) using the correct part of your arm.  

I suppose it'll vary from person to person, but many of the FMA people that I know, carry a blade.  Myself, no, I dont carry.


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## Master Dan (Nov 13, 2010)

Good posts all but I would like to bring up a couple points:

First it concerns me when I hear suposed experts telling people beginers a short self defense class they can disarm a knife atack or that they should? There is no such thing as not getting cut in a real knife encounter with a determined atacker. 

You need to understand what if feels like getting cut or stabed and not be afraid or sick at the site of your own blood. If you don't have that run if you can.

Second: I was horrified reading in BB mag one day a guy standing facing totally front defending against knife atacks. You need to learn at the very least get your torso and vital areas away. The worst thing about digital in movies now it gives the impression that all blocks work and are acurate? standing exposing your vital areas counting on some basic block to work will get you killed.

Experts: If your knowledgeable you can tell if the person with the knife is an amature or a pro. If they are an expert you are in deep trouble don't care who you are run if you have nothing put between you and that person. Except in the case of a throwing expert never turn your back. I had an oportunity to visit with some Korean knife comandos and they could stick a knife very deep in thick wood at any point at quite a distance I would not have wanted to be a target? On that issue an interesting artical about a North Korean comando raid with knives into South Korea and a fight hand to hand ensued. Those who stayed thier ground and fought survived though injured the ones who became afraid and ran died.

Over the years I learned some very good techniques for the average joe to at least to survive for a time how to remove your self from what looks like a bad position. Your right we train both as the defender and atacker because how can you understand defending if you do not understand the atack. Had an oportunity to work with Dr. Park who at one time was considered #1 or #2  rated fastest wepons and knife artist. Interesting point with knife on knife fight your first target is not the body or other areas but the opposing person's hand holding the knife now you have a knife and they have none.

Alot of years and alot of scars lots of blood for the most part does not bother me but one night just getting up to turn off a water faucet with a fancy porcelain handle broke and gutted my left hand and artery. When the light went on I instantly started shock numb face and started loosing consciousness. I knew I had 2 seconds to recover or I would pass out and then maybe bleed out. I did a recover move for shock and regained my composure then did first aid and got to hospital two hours of surgery and 6 months using a rubber ball to regain total use of my hand.

I think you guys are right for the most part we are not going to encounter expert MA knife person on the street and if we did I would hope that most are kind and courteous and would not wish to hurt anyone with out good reason but there are some people comming out of prison that have had nothing better to do than improve skills and agression you can generaly spot them.


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## lklawson (Nov 15, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> Experts: If your knowledgeable you can tell if the person with the knife is an amature or a pro. If they are an expert you are in deep trouble


Even with an amateur you can be in deep trouble.  The fencing masters of old called them the "Vulgar Fencer."  Their meaning was that untrained folks will frequently do random, unexpected, and even suicidal (to themselves) things because (being untrained) they don't know any better.

You can't expect them to act or react in a certain way.  They don't know that if they do X, Y, or Z, they will cause mutual death.

Amateurs aren't any less dangerous, they're just dangerous in a different way.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Nov 16, 2010)

Skpotamus said:


> How a weapon is best used and how you'll see it used by an attacker are not the same thing, IME. Everything I've read and seen points to the common street knife attacks being the psycho stab and the sewing machine (strong arm pumping the knife into the person's stomach area) style attacks. IE, untrained responses to rage when they've got a knife handy.
> 
> It's kind of like learning to defend a jab, cross and hook, then seeing people throw barroom haymakers at each other in street fights. An actual cross in a street fight is a rarity.


 
 There is alot of merit to what you are saying (You dont want to spend all your time training for your fellow martial stylist or that's all you know of) but at the same time if you train against Boxing, a redneck throwing a haymaker is alot easier to deal with. Whereas if you spend all your time training against the low profficientcy of your average person you will be in alot of trouble when you come across one (or more) of the smaller number who know how to fight.

 We work against commited knife attacks (The guy that trys to run you through or drive the knife into your face) , prison style shanking (sewing machine as you put it with the other hand "amping" ) and FMA/IMA/H2H knife work.

 I spend alot of physical and mental time preparing for my worst case opponent. The last guy I tangled with was handled with ease but the next time (if there is one) it might not be the case. Resting on one's laurals is pretty much pride before the fall, IMO.

 Shugyo!


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

The place you are most likely to get here is your backside. It's the favourite way of  yobs who bank on you being too embarrassed to go to the police or even to hospital. Most used in football crowds, a quick stab and they are gone. Other things used here are craft knives and worst of all two razor blades stuck together a few cms apart. It's slashed across the face, the blades make two cuts that are impossible to stitch properly because of their closeness. Most knife attacks here aren't face to face but are from behind or in a crowd.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Nov 16, 2010)

lklawson said:


> When you teach knife, what do you like to teach first, Defense or Offense, and why?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
 Iklawson,

 I pressume you mean defense or offense when you have a blade?

 We start knife training pretty much my mentor, Col. Jim Tirey taught begingers which was both offensive and defensive or more apptly in a counter attacking way.

 First thing I teach is to Plice with your blade In icepick grip into the forearm of an oncomming low/mid level stab (This can felet their forearm pretty bad).
Then feed their knife arm to towards their center line as you flank the knife arm side, bring blade under armpit and rip, stab down into the side of the neck and dump them.

 That was the first drill he showed me so I keep the tradition alive because there are alot of lesson in that sequence and much like a musical scale, you dont have to do the whole thing.

 After that we teach the dueling Bowie style Jim taught. Again like a scale it's more the individual notes more than a whole sequence, so it is not just usefull for dueling.

 As the students progress, my partner and I start into Pekiti Tarsia/Silat.

 It all helps with unarmed v knife.


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