# The knee is NOT the best target for self defense



## zDom (Aug 31, 2009)

Not sure I am decided on this opinion, but for the sake of argument I'm going to say:

*The knee is NOT the best target for self defense.*

Reasons:

&#8226; They are roundish, narrow targets that are hard to get a solid strike on with forward moving linear kicks such as front, side or stomp kicks. Tendency is for the strikes to glance and slide off to one side or the other. Its either bullseye or nothing.

&#8226; They are below the hip joint. The downward motion on forward moving linear kicks such as side or stomp kicks make it hard to get a solid strike: tendency is to slide down the leg.

&#8226; Easy for opponent to move the target out of the way.

&#8226; Must be within hand striking range to deliver a knee kick.

I might even suggest that the knee is NOT even a GOOD choice.

(A better target might be the quadriceps, even ...)

*Best target:* dinner-plate sized target with the top at the belly button and the bottom at the groin. Target includes the hip joint, bladder, genitals, lower abdomen.

This hip-area target is very EASY to land a solid hit on because:

&#8226; Flat-ish, hence a much lower tendency to glance off to the side.

&#8226; Strike on the "bullseye" hits something vulnerable as well as strikes that are slightly off from the bullseye.

&#8226; At about the same level at the kicker's hip joint providing

a) maximum range &#8212; i.e., out of range of the target's hands.

and

b) Liner forward moving kicks are coming in at a roughly perpendicular angle which results in force more likely to be delivered to the target and less likely to slide off.

&#8226; Hard for opponent to move target out of the way: they must move their entire body to displace this target! (My football coach used to advice us to always tackle at the hip: no matter what they do with their legs or upper body, where the hips go they go!)

Having a long "Muay Thai" heavy back to train at, I find that even with a wider, stable target, are I am able to deliver more force with kicks and more consistently at about hip height. THAT is the "Boom Zone" for kicking.

Therefore I submit for discussion that the lower abdomen area as described above is the BEST CHOICE for a self-defense kick.

Discuss


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## Ironcrane (Aug 31, 2009)

zDom said:


> Not sure I am decided on this opinion, but for the sake of argument I'm going to say:
> 
> *The knee is NOT the best target for self defense.*
> 
> ...



This should make for an interesting topic. For the points you made, I shall give my counter arguments. Based off my own experience.

- I never had a hard time getting a good shot at the knee with a kick. 

- I usually throw kicks to the knee when my opponent is already in motion, so it's not that easy for them to avoid it.

- I have thus far been able to stay out of arms reach with low side kicks to the knee.


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## zDom (Aug 31, 2009)

Ironcrane said:


> This should make for an interesting topic. For the points you made, I shall give my counter arguments. Based off my own experience.
> 
> - I never had a hard time getting a good shot at the knee with a kick.
> 
> ...



During free sparring or full contract/self defense?

Forward moving linear kicks ... or roundhouses to the sides of the knees?

(Based on full-contract sports, I submit that MOST kickers do not connect with enough force to end a conflict even after over a dozen roundhouse kicks to the side of the knee area).

Provide specific examples along with descriptions of the results.


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## nitflegal (Aug 31, 2009)

Hmm, I like the knee as a target, myself.  The primary reason is that, unlike targets from the groin up, it is very difficult to block without being forced into an angle  or sacrificing balance.  Speaking from experience, I've been axe kicked on the quad and, while it hurt like heck then and spasmed throughout the night, it didn't incapacitate me during the fight.  The knee, on the other hand not only is painful more easily but function compromise happens fairly easily.  It also forces the opponent to widen their focus and maintain defense all down the legs, which limits them to an extent.  

Matt


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## zDom (Aug 31, 2009)

Further thoughts for discussion:

front moving linear kicks create and/or maintain distance between you (the defender) and the attacker, hence are a better choice than strikes against the side of the knee.

Furthemore, a front moving linear kick to the attacker's hip area will place/keep them at legs-distance at the conclusion of the kick (i.e., out of hand striking range) whereas during a kick to the knee they may be simultaneously striking you in the head/face area or pulling you into a clinch.

Additionally, if they "shoot" at the same time, a knee kick may pass under their body whereas a HIP kick is at the same level as their head/shoulders.


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## zDom (Aug 31, 2009)

nitflegal said:


> Hmm, I like the knee as a target, myself.  The primary reason is that, unlike targets from the groin up, it is very difficult to block without being forced into an angle  or sacrificing balance.  Speaking from experience, I've been axe kicked on the quad and, while it hurt like heck then and spasmed throughout the night, it didn't incapacitate me during the fight.  The knee, on the other hand not only is painful more easily but function compromise happens fairly easily.  It also forces the opponent to widen their focus and maintain defense all down the legs, which limits them to an extent.
> 
> Matt



Comment: I find that even martial artists have difficulty blocking kicks below the belt. Moving the lead knee out of range is as simple as moving front leg backward to a switched stance. Moving the HIPS out of range takes considerably more movement.

How many documented or even anecdotal knee incapications can we come up with? I have always THOUGHT it is a great way to end a fight ... but I have never, in all my years of collecting anecdotes, heard of one  Not a single one.

The ONLY ones that come to mind are those in movies, i.e., fiction such as "Roadhouse."

I've seen a couple of guys in UFC matches look like they were in some pain from repeated kicks to the side of the knee  but only a few (5% maybe?) actually threw in the towel over them, although more were a contributing factor in them losing to some other attack eventually.

But in self defense, we do not have three 3-minute rounds to deliver cumulative damage for a finish with some other technique, do we?



So.. anyone out there END a fight with a knee kick? Raise your hand and tell us all about it


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## jarrod (Aug 31, 2009)

the best target for self defense is the one that is the most vulnerable at the time and offers the least risk to attack.  no target is a guaranteed stopper, so it's important to have a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc target in mind.  there is no "best" target.

the knee is a valid target, imo, but just like any other target you shouldn't count on your attacker stopping immediately & writhing in pain as beautiful large breasted women flock to you.  it's just a target.  there are no magic bullets.  

jf


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 31, 2009)

Opinions of a MA newbie, take it for what it may be worth:

For self-defense, I think the knee is a good target.

The knee can be struck from multiple angles.  The knee is often a leading target, out in front of every other part of the bad guy's body.  It may be easy for a trained MA'ist to move the knee, but most non-trained people put weight on their leading knee, and cannot retract it quickly, nor can they protect it effectively.  Once they plant the leg, the knee's not going anywhere.

It is also an unexpected attack (for a non-MA'ist).  People expect to be kicked in the snarglies, punched in the face.   They do not expect to have the knee taken out with a side-thrust kick that doesn't even come from directly in front of them.  Even when dealing with LE, bad guys don't have experience with LE taking out a knee, as we are (or were, in my day) trained NOT to take the knee, as damage there is generally permanent.

A person kicked in the groin can sometimes stagger away.  Nobody hops away on one leg.  A drug-addled person can ignore severe pain, but nobody can ignore a joint that will no longer support weight.

Just my thoughts.  I'd have no hesitation to try to take the knee in a self-defense situation.  Not that I'd ignore shots to the solar plexus, but if he's going to stick that knee out there and plant weight on it...


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## jks9199 (Aug 31, 2009)

jarrod said:


> the best target for self defense is the one that is the most vulnerable at the time and offers the least risk to attack.  no target is a guaranteed stopper, so it's important to have a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc target in mind.  there is no "best" target.
> 
> the knee is a valid target, imo, but just like any other target you shouldn't count on your attacker stopping immediately & writhing in pain as beautiful large breasted women flock to you.  it's just a target.  there are no magic bullets.
> 
> jf


Great post.

I don't like the groin area as a target for self defense because too many folks think it's an instant fight ender.  Unless you can reliably destroy the hip structure with the shot, it's not.  Yeah, there are lots of targets and lots of vulnerabilities... but it's not as reliable as some people think.

The best target is the target that you can strike with the most effect at the moment.  Depending on the specifics of the situation, that could be anything from literally the toes or fingers on up to targets like the throat or eyes.  Whatever you do should be part of a sequence of attacks, because the odds are that one shot won't stop the fight.


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## blindsage (Aug 31, 2009)

I'm not even sure how to engage this discussion.  

Are all front kicks comitted moving ones?  

Are all front kicks linear (are most)?  

When people are talking about targeting the knee, are they only talking about as a single distance attack from kicking range?  

What if you target the knee in trapping or clinch range?  Is it a valid target then?

What if you aren't looking at single attack vectors?

What if your kicking methods aren't limited to kickboxing style roundhouses and front kicks?

What if you use a kick to the knee as a feint or distraction?  Is it valid then?

What if you're targeting the back support knee when you're opponent is kicking?

If you do use a front kick, are you limited to pushing your opponent away?

With most fighting stances at a 45 degree angle to the opponent, why won't front kicks be likely to slide off the torso?  Especially if the opponent moves at all?

And why is it either or?  Who claimed the knee was "best"?  Why are we limiting our targets?  When did one OR the other become a useful way to strategize for SD?


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Aug 31, 2009)

zDom said:


> How many documented or even anecdotal knee incapications can we come up with? I have always THOUGHT it is a great way to end a fight ... but I have never, in all my years of collecting anecdotes, heard of one  Not a single one.
> 
> The ONLY ones that come to mind are those in movies, i.e., fiction such as "Roadhouse."
> 
> ...


 
When I was 18, I incapacitated a man in a streetfight with a snapping side kick to the knee. I'd had a self-defense course the previous year, and that was one of the few techniques that I mastered. I did it hard and fast, and it was right on target. He went down like a ton of bricks, and I ran away. Slowly, because I'm not a fast runner. 

I like this particular kick, because I'm short (so most men's hips are higher than mine). At this stage in my training, I seem to be able to generate a lot of power and accuracy with low leg kicks, but I lose power and accuracy with kicks above my waist. This may change as my training progresses, but until then I'll keep this kick in my arsenal.


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## still learning (Aug 31, 2009)

Hello,  The Knees are a very good tarket to AIM for!   Just the legal aspects can be "costly" if sue or go to court for damages....which can last a life time...

To say the knees are NOT the best tarkets...is like saying everything else is NOT good either...All tarkets will need some kind of feint..or high/low...techniques to be able to open the Tarkets? 

A hard kick to the Knee ( damage them) ..will almost end the Fight right way...which is what you will want to do in any "street confrontations"
A damage knee will be hard to stand on and chase after you...

Study tarkets that will end most attacks?  ...the knees will be on the list of "best" tarkets to take out....

To stop an attack from advancing many time lifting your foot and put it on the front knee of the attacker...will many times stop them in there tracks...study this further...

Knees .....most of us have two of them...one on each side of the legs...
many times both are use in praying....

We "pray" you will understand the effects of attacks to the knees...is a GREAT tarkets!!!

   ....best NOT to train yourself of what is NOT the best tarkets to hit(knees)...every tarket...when set up or comes available should be taken into accounts..

Limit the minds...will limit one self........Aloha..


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## Deaf Smith (Aug 31, 2009)

There is no 'best' target. Only some targets that are more available than others.

Most martial artist don't practice knee attacks (or any leg attack) anywhere near as much as face or body attacks. 


And that is really the problem.

Deaf


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## MJS (Aug 31, 2009)

I like what Jarrod said in his post.   I feel the same way.  For me, I'm not looking for the 1 hit, 1 kill.  I'm looking for a series of hits to get my desired result.  Is the 1/1 possible?  Sure, but IMO, its a crap shoot, and one that I dont want to always bank on.  

So, while wearing sneakers, boots, etc., I'm sure that a good hard shot to the knee or shin will get a result.  We will most likely get a reaction.  And that is the reaction that I want to take advantage of.  If I can get in a hit, to take the bad guys mind off of his original intent, just for a second, that buys me enough time to do something else.

I'm thinking back to the Kajukenbo Fight Quest episode, when Prof. Harper, now, GM Harper, had one of his guys take Doug thru some SD techs.  The guy made the comment, "This hit sets up my second hit, which sets up my third hit, which sets up my fourth hit." and so forth.  

Kenpo and especially Arnis, focus alot on low line kicks.  I'm training them all the time, and I feel confident enough to hit there and confident enough that I will get a reaction.


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## seasoned (Aug 31, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Opinions of a MA newbie, take it for what it may be worth:
> 
> For self-defense, I think the knee is a good target.
> 
> ...


Good points as always, Bill. The smallest of people can take down the biggest, using the knee strike. As with any kick, we should practice it often. Most hits need to be somewhat precise, the knee kick is no exception.


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## K-man (Aug 31, 2009)

The knee is one of my preferred targets. No matter how big and strong a man is, the side of his knee is always vulnerable. I teach a number of knee joint kicks and which one you use depends on your position relative to your attacker. A frontal attack on the knee will be next to useless if his knee is bent so that to me is not an option. A shin kick to the side of the knee, delivered with trained force will cause an enormous amount of damage. That's the one I train most. And finally if you're off the line and can get in behind the knee with the kick it is a relatively safe takedown option.
I like the lower abdomen option as well, but if an attacker is charging at you with intent, that's like standing in front of a moving truck. It might stop if you're lucky. I prefer to punch that area if I'm in close. :asian:


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## mwd0818 (Aug 31, 2009)

I do agree with the "dinner plate" target being a solid one, but for kicks in a real self-defense situation, that one is getting a little high for me to really target with regularly.  (It's definitely still in "range" but it is at the upper limit.)

Knees are great targets, although the superlative best implies that it is better than others.  As mentioned earlier, the best target is the one that presents itself in the situation.  Instead, in pure self-defense classes, I teach primary and secondary targets.  Knee is a primary target meaning that if it's there, it's probably a good bet.

One of the best things about the knee as a target in coming from a Kenpo background is this:

1) If it hits with enough force, there is significant structural damage that can end the fight.
2) If it doesn't hit with enough force for #1, it can disrupt the body's structure, opening up a variety of additional targets (especially the head) while checking the opponent's available counter-attacks
3) If it doesn't do enough for #1 or #2, it can change an opponent's focus to a lower zone, thereby opening up additional targets in the upper ranges (away from the attacker's focus) - see #2


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## MA-Caver (Aug 31, 2009)

I agree that the knee is a good target. Granted it does have to be hit correctly like K-man said but once struck (fist, foot, elbow) then the damage is there and the guy isn't able to stand on it and the pain can be excruciating, think of football and basketball players that have blown out their knees, those guys aren't rolling around screaming because it tickles. 
Also in the heat of a fight most people do not even think about their knees as a potential target, as stated most will worry about their groin and faces. Some will think their abs are tough enough to handle a hard strike but then they learn the hard way on that one.  
A good hammer fist to the knee I've learned helps when the attacker has you in a vise from behind and has you bent over forward trying to push/muscle you to the ground. If one strike doesn't do it then I've found from experience that the second hit usually gets them thinking "oh ****!" and they let go and try to back away to protect that spot. 
Question was asked if a knee shot ended a fight. For me it has, in one altercation. I got knocked to the ground with the guy standing over me, he stepped in range and bent over to start pummeling me to nothingness, (I'm on my left side) I thought of kicking upwards to his groin but saw the left knee was straight and had his weight on it, so I lashed out with a snap kick and hit the knee cap dead on, there was a loud pop... followed by silence, then a thud and a long scream. Seems this guy had previous knee problems (possible football injury?) and well... he's out, gone, end of the matter. I left him there. 
Go for the knee, you may discover the guy might have had prior problems with it like I did. Even if you miss, it puts you into either an inside step for YOUR knee to go up to the groin or an outside step for your knee to go for that hip joint.


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## Aikicomp (Sep 1, 2009)

I teach that the knees (among many others) are primary targets (In the right situations). There are targets all over the body and all of them are viable in the right application. The human body is a weak vessle (relatively) and as martial artists we are trained to exploit these weaknesses.

There are no best targets. You must choose which target is most vulnerable in any situation and choose the best available target with the proper application of technique at the given time to achieve the most beneficial result.

To say or think that the knee is not the best target for self defense is very odd and in all honesty it is quite the opposite. 

In the right situation a kick to the knee can end an altercation instantly and destroy a person's ability to walk normally for the rest of their life. If done to a point of major hyper-extention (from the front) or if from the sides it will cause a massive amount of damage, ranging from a minor dislocation to major trauma to connective tissues and structures and may even force amputation. ( Not sure on the amputation but it seems possible. If there are any medical people here maybe they can clarify)

The knee is a very weak part of the body and if attacked with the right technique at the right time it can have devastating results for the attacker.

So, to the OP. Do not write the knees off as non viable targets, they are anything but.

Michael


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## Ironcrane (Sep 1, 2009)

zDom said:


> During free sparring or full contract/self defense?
> 
> Forward moving linear kicks ... or roundhouses to the sides of the knees?
> 
> ...



Fully awake now, and not rushing to get to work on time so I'll try to be more specific. I'm less of an expert on knee kicks then I sounded. I use a forward moving linear side kick. More of a hoping, jamming side kick with my hip put into it. I use it during free sparing, and self defense practice, but I always hold back on the kick.

One of my roommates once kicked an attacker in the knee, and after he encountered that guy again, he was walking around with a cane.

And I actually have a hard time using it in sparing, because I use it as a counter attack, and pretty much all my partners are defensive. But what happens is, when my sparing partner advances on me, the knee kick stops them right in their tracks. Also when punches come after my head, throwing that jamming side kick will bring my head out of reach, while I can still reach them.


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## Akira (Sep 1, 2009)

Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses but I've kicked someone in the knee with full force (accidently) and it had no effect.  I wouldn't recommend it as an effective target.  It's a lot smaller and harder then the thigh.

I've also been kicked hard in the knee and all it did was piss me off.

Knees are for kneeing people with, not for kicking at.


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## crushing (Sep 1, 2009)

zDom said:


> I've seen a couple of guys in UFC matches look like they were in some pain from repeated kicks to the side of the knee  but only a few (5% maybe?) actually threw in the towel over them, although more were a contributing factor in them losing to some other attack eventually.
> 
> But in self defense, we do not have three 3-minute rounds to deliver cumulative damage for a finish with some other technique, do we?


 
The guys in the UFC do quite well in defending against kicks to the knee and their MMA training and toughening programs make their knees a less vulnerable target.

Also, I don't see the knee as really being targetted so much in the UFC, but instead the area just above the knee joint.  Those guys don't want the tops of their feet or shins going right into the bony part of a knee.  If they were wearing shoes or boots (which is likely in a SD situation), then you may actually see the knee being targetting right in the side of the hinge.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 1, 2009)

I cannot speak for competition; the knee is not a valid target in any of the events that I have competed in.

In self defense, I have used the side kick to the knee and it worked quite well;  I am still here to post.

Daniel


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## Stac3y (Sep 1, 2009)

As a bullied kid, I put a few other kids down with knee kicks. They hurt. Haven't used one as an adult, but we practice them a lot.


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## MJS (Sep 1, 2009)

The odds of the average guy taking the time to condition his legs I'd imagine are pretty slim, so while it may do nothing more than piss the person off, I'm sure that it caused enough pain to buy you time to do other things.

Of course this kicking the knee debate is often talked about endlessly with MMA guys, who, like so many other targets, feel that kicking there is a waste of time.  

I wonder if there is some sort of medical documentation out there to show knee injuries, as a result of a kick.  Of course, what I find interesting, is that the knee can be damaged in sports related injuries, it can be damaged as a result of a knee bar, yet it can't be damaged as a result of a kick??


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## blindsage (Sep 1, 2009)

Akira said:


> Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses but I've kicked someone in the knee with full force (accidently) and it had no effect. I wouldn't recommend it as an effective target. It's a lot smaller and harder then the thigh.
> 
> I've also been kicked hard in the knee and all it did was piss me off.
> 
> Knees are for kneeing people with, not for kicking at.


No, knees are for walking, damaging them interferes with that, a lot.  I guess _everybody_ else on here who has had real life experience of actually damaging an attacker's knee is just a fool, and probably a liar, then.


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## blindsage (Sep 1, 2009)

crushing said:


> The guys in the UFC do quite well in defending against kicks to the knee and their MMA training and toughening programs make their knees a less vulnerable target.
> 
> Also, I don't see the knee as really being targetted so much in the UFC, but instead the area just above the knee joint. Those guys don't want the tops of their feet or shins going right into the bony part of a knee. If they were wearing shoes or boots (which is likely in a SD situation), then you may actually see the knee being targetting right in the side of the hinge.


MMA training toughens the _knee _joint?! Wow, that's a new revelation to me. Can you detail some of that training?

UFC guys don't target knee because it's bad form in pretty much all kickboxing styles to do so. It's not about the bony part of the knee, it's about permanently damaging your opponent. Just like joint locks on the ground, they don't just put them on full force and snap the joint, they give the opponent a chance to tap out, otherwise it would be considered bad form, bad sportsmanship, and just plain f***** up.


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## crushing (Sep 1, 2009)

blindsage said:


> MMA training toughens the _knee _joint?! Wow, that's a new revelation to me. Can you detail some of that training?


 
Nice!  "new revelation".  Once again, over the top.  LOL!

Anyhoo, how specific do you want the stretching and strengthening excercises of the muscles that support the knee to be?  A lot of them are similar to exercises people do to help them avoid injury while engaged in various physical activities, and for people that may be suffering from athritis.

Maybe all the various motion and strengthening excercises that help people avoid and/or recover from injuries are like butter on a burn, and don't really help?

Until then, we have stuff like this:  http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/32814.php


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 1, 2009)

The main issue that I see in this discussion is this: 

One end of the spectrum is that UFC and other mma athletes train in a way as to strengthen themselves to that the knee is not as easily damaged if struck.

The other end of the spectrum is that in an SD scenario, the attacker is unlikely to have conditioned themselves in such a specialized way. In fact, I would go so far as to say that UFC and other MMA athletes are unlikely to be attacking people outside of the ring.

I am not familiar enough with MMA rules to know if knee blows are legal or not, but guarding the knee was mentioned earlier in this thread, so I suppose that it is. Once again, an attacker is unlikely to be trained to guard below his waist. 

If the attacker does not go down after you strike his knee, you do something else. Same for groin shots, head shots, or any other shot. Unless you rely on a knee shot as a silver bullet that will immediately end a confrontation, your strategies are likely to be unaffected by the views presented in this discussion.

My own opinion is that strengthening a body part, whatever it is, makes it more resistant to injury, but not invulnterable to it. The knee is a viable target, but not the only target.

Daniel


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## howard (Sep 1, 2009)

Several years ago I remember seeing Dan Severn suffer a fight-ending injury from a single outward kick to the front or medial side of the knee. He went right down. Within about a minute or so, his knee was swollen very badly.

In looking at his record, I think it must have been a fight against Pedro Rizzo in September 2000. I definitely remember that his opponent was Brazilian, but I couldn't remember his name.


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## blindsage (Sep 1, 2009)

crushing said:


> Nice! "new revelation". Once again, over the top. LOL!
> 
> Anyhoo, how specific do you want the stretching and strengthening excercises of the muscles that support the knee to be? A lot of them are similar to exercises people do to help them avoid injury while engaged in various physical activities, and for people that may be suffering from athritis.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are correct, there are a number of exercises that help strengthen the muscles of the knee to help prevent injury.  This is generally to help prevent _self_ injury from normal range of motion usage.  If you can show me any evidence that indicates any real protection from being kicked I would apprectiate it.  And yes, I would say that a younger, fit person would be _less_ likely to be injured as the result of an impact to the knee that a senior citizen, but generally you would expect the younger, fit person to have a better resistance to all injury.  This doesn't necessarily lead to a conclusion that stretching and strengthening the knee muscles is of any significant protection against a strong kick to that region.  But again, show me some evidence to say otherwise and I'll be happy to change my tune.


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## crushing (Sep 1, 2009)

blindsage said:


> Yes, you are correct, there are a number of exercises that help strengthen the muscles of the knee to help prevent injury. This is generally to help prevent _self_ injury from normal range of motion usage. If you can show me any evidence that indicates any real protection from being kicked I would apprectiate it. And yes, I would say that a younger, fit person would be _less_ likely to be injured as the result of an impact to the knee that a senior citizen, but generally you would expect the younger, fit person to have a better resistance to all injury. This doesn't necessarily lead to a conclusion that stretching and strengthening the knee muscles is of any significant protection against a strong kick to that region. But again, show me some evidence to say otherwise and I'll be happy to change my tune.


 
Nope, don't have anything to change your tune.  It is only a guess that because exercises have been shown to help protect an individual from self injury, similar training may provide some degree of protection against injury inflicted by others.  It seems reasonable to think that stronger muscles and more flexible joints, may help reduce the likelyhood of injury such as an hyperextension from a strike.

For example, take an normal average American knee.  What is the minimum strike that it would take to injury that knee?  If that person were to to engage in stengthening and flexibility exercises, would that knee be more likely to be able to withstand that same strike?  My guess is yes, and that is what I based my comments on.  It would make for an interesting study.  I don't think there is any excercise that can make the knee invulnerable.


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## Xinglu (Sep 1, 2009)

Against the average Joe who tends to lock his legs and fight straight legged... I'll go for the knees every day of the week and twice on sunday.  A locked knee is asking to get kicked and will end the fight.

Find me an MMA guy who locks his knees and fights straight legged.  

It all comes down to *awareness* of who you are fighting and what they are doing with their body.


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## blindsage (Sep 1, 2009)

crushing said:


> Nope, don't have anything to change your tune. It is only a guess that because exercises have been shown to help protect an individual from self injury, similar training may provide some degree of protection against injury inflicted by others. It seems reasonable to think that stronger muscles and more flexible joints, may help reduce the likelyhood of injury such as an hyperextension from a strike.
> 
> For example, take an normal average American knee. What is the minimum strike that it would take to injury that knee? If that person were to to engage in stengthening and flexibility exercises, would that knee be more likely to be able to withstand that same strike? My guess is yes, and that is what I based my comments on. It would make for an interesting study. I don't think there is any excercise that can make the knee invulnerable.


That all makes perfect sense to me.  I think those exercises would make it more likely to be able to withstand the same strike.  The question is by how much.  I don't think it would be to any really signficant degree.


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## BLACK LION (Sep 1, 2009)

I would not consider the knee a target if I was just kicking the leg... There is a potential danger if they are skilled at blocking with thier leg and you could easily catch the patella and make a bad day for your foot or shin...  

I do consider the knee a viable target if I wish to destroy that legs ability to function... or temporary disable movement so I can get elsewhere... sometimes its the only ready target in a combative situation where you are caught on your knees, sitting down, on your back or stomach... 
So many things can be done to the knees to disorient movement temporarily or permanently...  

I would consider ankles to be a less viable target no matter what  since they are structurally stronger and have more degrees of rotation... If this was brought up I would agree....


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## Zero (Sep 2, 2009)

zDom said:


> Comment: I find that even martial artists have difficulty blocking kicks below the belt. Moving the lead knee out of range is as simple as moving front leg backward to a switched stance. Moving the HIPS out of range takes considerably more movement.
> 
> How many documented or even anecdotal knee incapications can we come up with? I have always THOUGHT it is a great way to end a fight ... but I have never, in all my years of collecting anecdotes, heard of one  Not a single one.
> 
> ...


 
ZDom, I have to totally disagree with you on this one. From my own experience, I have ended a competition fight with a TKO from a knee strike. It was a leg/shin attack to the opponent's outer side of knee - this region is very prone to buckling when struck with power and there is no way to build up any form of musculature around the side ligaments to a degree to offer any decent protection to strikes. I have also felt that I have markedly weakended my opponents from knee strikes in many fights - and you see this all the time in the likes of K1 by the pros.

I have also been badly injured by a side knee strike myself in kyokoshin tournament, I was able to continue the fight but it took 3 months physio before had it healed and could fight again.

You are however right regarding evading a knee strike, as aside from the above example where I came "a cropper" I have genuinely found it easy pulling back the leg and evading such strikes, in fact at times have used it as bait...but it all comes down to timing...

However, this strike is easily executed outside of punching/hand range and if executed from the front foot, given the lowness of the strike you do not loose marked centre of gravity and if experienced can defend against any shoots or take downs.

If my own anecdotes aren't good enough, see the link for a great fight stopper with a beautiful knee attack used to perfection by late, great Andy Hug:




 
I also think Ray Sefu went down to a side knee strike to Filho or Hug and this is on youtube.  In fact, I'm not sure what K1 fights you're watching as there are plenty where Ernesto has Ended fights with a knee strike...check out youtube and maybe you will change your mind on this target.

Also IMO, a knee strike is great in street fighting and SD, you can take down an inexperienced fighter in one strike or lead into a KO head strike. Sure there are other targets but you go for the gap as always and what is presented.


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## BLACK LION (Sep 2, 2009)

Lets not forget the knee is a joint that has zero degrees of rotation in every direction but the natural bend...  using the correct angle and proper striking medium it is a text book target ...   Knees are very strong but they are also very weak...  

Knees are great targets in many ways... One important scenario in which knees are very important is when facing multiple attackers...  I am fond of dumping the combatants into the legs of thier accomplices as this makes for a great strike and sure way to kill 2 birds with one stone...     

I am also fond of stomping or striking to the back or side of the knee to assist in drop throws and dumps...  

Knees are good for takedowns as well as I dont know how many times the opportunity comes to use the knees to assist in a dump or drop...
Legs also tend to fly up when people get dumped on the groud and the knee is often offered as a target by default...  

I think its more about knowing what the knee is and what it is not...  its easy to write something off if the understanding of how to use it is not available...


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## still learning (Sep 2, 2009)

Hello, Once read about an attack of three guys approaching you to the  front of you, coming to you...throw your body sideways into the knee areas.....catching all three..

NOT sure of this technique? .....but it has remaim on my mind for some reason....MIGHT not be a solve all technique...YET it may have a place for it!

Knees kicks..can be an inside kick (kick the knees) out ward, ..a hook kick? or inside out cresant kick...

Thighs...will also be tarket along with knees....Shins...slide down with shoes...

So many choices when...when one tarkets near the knees...

Aloha, knee pads..great for tile working..


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## zDom (Sep 3, 2009)

Great discussion! 

Thanks, all, for participating!


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## BLACK LION (Sep 3, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, Once read about an attack of three guys approaching you to the front of you, coming to you...throw your body sideways into the knee areas.....catching all three..


 
This is actually a good way to break both knees on a single attacker that is larger or coming at you while you are kneeling or lying down... 

One drill we have simulates being put face down and having to agress an approaching threat... you do a push up and lay across the knees to lock them and drop them...  acts kind like rolling a barrel into someones legs whilem they are running...   

Also...the type of shoes you wear may or may not limit your striking ability...   I learned from a JKD practitioner long ago that hard toe boots are king...


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## Akira (Sep 4, 2009)

There's one other point I want to make...a strike to the knee is very easy to avoid, just a small step back.

Blindsage I didn't call anyone a liar, I'm just saying in my experience knee strikes haven't been effective.  Other people may have used them with great success.  I can only speak about my experience.


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## blindsage (Sep 4, 2009)

Akira said:


> There's one other point I want to make...a strike to the knee is very easy to avoid, just a small step back.


If you are thinking of a knee attack in just one simple context, with one attack vector happening.  There are a lot of different context in which the knee could bee attacked.  Thinking only of attacking it as a single attack from kicking range seriously limits your perspective.



> Blindsage I didn't call anyone a liar, I'm just saying in my experience knee strikes haven't been effective. Other people may have used them with great success. I can only speak about my experience.


Appreciate the clarification.


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## celtic_crippler (Sep 4, 2009)

The throat is better...

...but the knee ain't bad either. :EG:-muahahaha


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## Ojisan (Sep 4, 2009)

Most of the discussion has been around sparring situations or MMA. In self defense situations, at least in application of karate kata, the kicks follow the momentary locking of the uke in a position ( arm bar, balance disruption, etc,) where he cannot pull the knee out of the line of attack. In that scenario, you can severly damage the joint.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 4, 2009)

The knee vs a low kick to the side of the knee

That's all


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## myusername (Sep 5, 2009)

My opinion on this is that like all targets, the knee is a viable one to gun for if it is available to you and your primary targets are not. Dependent on your given position it may be the only target available to you at the time so of course for self defence purposes it is wise to know how to attack it.

However, striking the knee effectively enough to finish a fight does require a high level of skill (or luck) to be able to do this consistantly. Like others on this thread, my personal view on knee strikes is that they are best used in combinations or to set up a more high percentage finishing strike.

In self defence to truly neutralise my opponent I feel that I would need to attack the high perecentage targets that interfere with the attackers air supply, blood supply or conciousness. These primary targets are the chin, jaw, temples, throat, carotid artery, cervical vertebrae. 

I recognise that these targets are hard to hit as people naturally tend to protect them well. Therefore, we need secondary targets such as the knee, ribs, groin etc etc etc etc etc to distract the opponent and open up the primary targets. However, I would not rely on these secondary targets to finish a pumped up adrenalised attacker.

I do feel that the knee comes under a secondary target and NOT a primary one.

As for the OP's thinking about higher level abdominal kicks being better for self defence than knee kicks my instinct on this is to disagree. Purely on the basis that the higher you kick the more susceptable you are to having your leg grabbed and sacrificing balance. Obviously this will again depend on skill level and any opportunities in the attack.


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## mwd0818 (Sep 7, 2009)

myusername said:


> ...These primary targets are the chin, jaw, temples, throat, carotid artery, cervical vertebrae.
> 
> I recognise that these targets are hard to hit as people naturally tend to protect them well. Therefore, we need secondary targets...



Interesting - I consider the chin, jaw, and temple to be secondary targets for the reason you mentioned - they are harder to hit and people tend to protect them well . . . 

Of course it comes back to definitions and the way in which you treat primary versus secondary targets.  I consider the knee a primary because it can open up secondary targets (temple, throat, etc.).


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## Stonecold (Sep 7, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> Interesting - I consider the chin, jaw, and temple to be secondary targets for the reason you mentioned - they are harder to hit and people tend to protect them well . . .
> 
> Of course it comes back to definitions and the way in which you treat primary versus secondary targets.  I consider the knee a primary because it can open up secondary targets (temple, throat, etc.).


I have been in many violent encounters, most guys dont defend the chin, jaw or head area, as a trained fighter would. Only skilled fighters work defence and think about takeing damage, most street incounters are fast, wild & uncontroled, charging in with chin up, head forward looking to land that looping hook punch to your head.   I have always had success with the stright down the middle approach, hard lead leg front kick to the lower ab's followed by jab,cross to the face. As Mike Tyson said ( everyone has a plain .. till they get punched in the mouth ) .  Don't get me wrong I will take any target given to me, this just workers well for me.


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## still learning (Sep 7, 2009)

Hello, NO two fights will be the same.....

Tarkets..hit them when available.....

Aloha,  (Kona has a brand new "Tarket Store" )

PS: Good place to Tarket?


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## myusername (Sep 7, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> Interesting - I consider the chin, jaw, and temple to be secondary targets for the reason you mentioned - they are harder to hit and people tend to protect them well . . .
> 
> Of course it comes back to definitions and the way in which you treat primary versus secondary targets.  I consider the knee a primary because it can open up secondary targets (temple, throat, etc.).



Yes I think this is a definition difference rather than a difference of opinion. The reason I call those primary targets "primary targets" is that they are the ones I am really interested in. The others are second in priority and only to be used if my primary targets aren't availiable or to open up the persons defences so that I can hit the primary targets. 

Targets that effect the airway, brain and blood supply are the only certain "manstoppers" because if they are attacked hard enough through strikes, strangles or chokes they will switch the attacker off. Adrenalised people can walk through groin shots and even fight with broken limbs (if they are conscious and desperate enough) but if they are knocked out then they aren't fighting! So those targets that can knock my attacker out are my primary focus.

Also, if I am in a lucky enough position to defend myself with a pre-emptive strike from the fence position I don't really want to waste my first shot on a knee strike! I want that first pre-emptive strike to count so I would be best to go for something simple and quick like banging them hard on the chin!


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## MJS (Sep 7, 2009)

Like I said before, if a target presents itself, I'm going to take advantage of it.  Unless we KO the guy with one shot, chances are, anything we throw, is going to upset the guy, so I take the knees are not good targets, the guy will be too conditioned, the guy will have a good defense, comments, with a grain of salt.  

Now, this isn't to say that there aren't some guys out there that are tough but is every guy who tries to carjack us, mug us, etc the next Ken Shamrock?  I highly doubt it.  

I hate to use this as a reliable source to go on, but what the hell...I'll use it anyways.   Look at youtube.  Seriously, how many street fights can we view, where the combatants are what we'd call skilled?  I see alot of wild swingers.  If thats the skill that we're going to face on the street, well, I dont think theres much to worry about.  Again, this isn't to say these guys are to be taken lightly, because if you're not careful and they connect with something, you could get caught, but IMO, those guys or should I say punks, that we see are not trained or skilled fighters.  Hell, some of them remind me of some newbies that I used to spar with. LOL.  Enter into the ring feeling all big and cocky, swinging with all their might, yet a few well placed sidekicks to their gut usually took the steam out of them.


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## mwd0818 (Sep 7, 2009)

myusername said:


> Yes I think this is a definition difference rather than a difference of opinion. The reason I call those primary targets "primary targets" is that they are the ones I am really interested in. The others are second in priority and only to be used if my primary targets aren't availiable or to open up the persons defences so that I can hit the primary targets.
> 
> Targets that effect the airway, brain and blood supply are the only certain "manstoppers" because if they are attacked hard enough through strikes, strangles or chokes they will switch the attacker off. Adrenalised people can walk through groin shots and even fight with broken limbs (if they are conscious and desperate enough) but if they are knocked out then they aren't fighting! So those targets that can knock my attacker out are my primary focus.
> 
> Also, if I am in a lucky enough position to defend myself with a pre-emptive strike from the fence position I don't really want to waste my first shot on a knee strike! I want that first pre-emptive strike to count so I would be best to go for something simple and quick like banging them hard on the chin!



Yup - theory and idea are the same, we are just differing on definitions.  My secondary targets are considered as such because they will likely be the second targets you get to.  But they are often the stoppers as well.  The primary targets are the ones you focus on as your most likely opportunitites at first.

And I agree about the broken limbs, which is one reason I like destroying the knee if necessary - it's real tough to continue a fight when the function of a supporting structure is destroyed.


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## still learning (Sep 8, 2009)

Hello, In any strikes? ...which will be more easly damage?

the fist to the face? or a kick to the knees?

muliple attackers....best to end any attacker as quick as one can....KNEES is one good way too...

Aloha, ....fist to thoat might be a better face tarket?


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## wolfeyes2323 (Sep 9, 2009)

knees are a fundamental target,   as are all major joints in the body, 
the bonus with knees is that pressure to the knee will , also unbalance 
and drive the opponent to the ground .  Damage to the knee seriously 
limits mobility,   and causes great pain. 
The effects of attacking the knee are also psychological, and emotional .

this is true even if it is not your knee,  It is one thing to see someone 
Ko&#8217;d ,  it is quite another to hear his knee being torn ,  and 
the cries of the recipient and he writhes in pain.

the knee is a easy joint to attack and damage because the 
weight of the individual works against him,  the knee 
just has to be misaligned and the recipients own weight 
will do the rest of the damage.

How we attack the knee determines the amount of damage
and the effects,   In sports leg kicks seldom damage the knee
because the angle of the kick is in and up,  this hurts but the 
knee is strong enough to resist and the recipient can 
lift his leg or move his weight from it , so no damage is done.

the knee is most giving if attacked  from behind,
kicking behind the knee and dropping your weight downward 
on the back of the leg , will drive the opponent to ground 
but not damage the knee,  because this is the direction
the knee works in.   

the knee is strongest from the front
Kicking into the front of the knee is easily resisted,
this is the strong side of the knee, and this has 
little effect, unless it has somehow already been 
straightened or hyper extended.

the knee is most vulnerable if attacked from the sides at a downward 
angle .  as a hinge joint it is not designed to move in this direction.
To attack a joint like the knee or elbow,  (both are hinge joints)
pressure is applied above the joint and at the other end of long 
bone attached to the joint.   This is a classic arm bar, when speaking 
of the elbow,   
When speaking of kicks, the ground acts as the trapping mechanism 
for the foot,  Once the knee buckles under downward pressure , 
the foot is trapped sideways against the ground, there is no 
way to elevate the pressure by moving the foot,   the weight of 
the individual is  on the misaligned joint , and the recipient can 
not fall fast enough to stop the damage. 

To insure that the weight of the individual is on the leg 
before attacking the knee,  we can seize the opponent 
and pull downward,  this draws his weight onto his 
forward knee as he attempts to resist, unbalance, 
once this occurs ,  it is like breaking wood for the fire with 
a nice downward angled blade kick into the side of 
the leg just above the knee.  Snap , crackle , pop 

This is a great kick done with shoes or boots, which just 
enhance the effects.

The fact that the to resist unbalance from pulling a 
opponent  must put pressure on his front foot , means 
that  the knee is a easy target, as you can time when this 
will happen, and somewhat control the ability of 
the opponent to move his weight from it.

All of this and we have not even talked about kicking into 
the nerves and major arteries above the knee on the inside 
of the thigh before driving downward into the knee,
(best done with the toe tip, or cowboy boots : )  ) 

I have seen people take a punch to the face that I 
 thought would drop anyone, 
I have seen people hit in the head with pool cues 
bottles, and all kinds of other things and still keep 
going, (they don&#8217;t have enough brains to be ko&#8217;d : ) ) 
   If you get a kick angled downward into 
the knee,  EVERY ONE , and ANYONE  will fall.
That makes the knee a great target.
It starts a reaction that none can resist. 
Romney^..^


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## Kwanjang (Sep 10, 2011)

Interesting observation. I would concur! I think if you attack the knee it should be after you have deprived them of clarity of thought!


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 11, 2011)

Interesting thread.  Somehow I had missed it until now.

I think the knee is a great target.  I often advise it over the groin for women facing a male opponent.  In the Hapkido I learned, we often included the knee in our defense, whether is was a direct attack, or secondary in a continuing defense.  Other than the way it was intended to use, the knee is weak.  The patela is a floating bone and also weak.  It can be dislocated from the side, top, or bottom.  It can be broken if jammed to the ground from the back.  A near miss may cause sufficient pain to the lower thigh or upper shin, to slow down an opponent (I was once struck on the lower thigh bone and couldn't walk right for a couple of weeks.) or will catch one of the opponent's legs in the thigh muscles.

People don't tend to protect the knee.  But as others have said in this thread, no target is the only one to be concentrated on for self defense.  You go for what you can get to while protecting yourself.  But never neglect the knee, and don't go too high unless you certain of not being caught off balance.  I was always told by my GM that the old Hapkido masters felt low kicks were always the best.

So no, I do not agree with the OP's assertion.  All available targets are the best, including the knee.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 11, 2011)

Its all a matter of how you hit it.
A hit with the Ball of the Foot, coming on from the side (Youre standing in front), hitting hard enough could damage that Leg for Life.
And so forth.


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## OKenpo942 (Sep 12, 2011)

I think the knee is a great target. Even if the target is missed, the strike will likely land somewhere on the leg and more importantly cause a stopping of momentum or a flinch, which for a good martial artist will be capitalized upon by following with subsequent strikes. 

Best case scenario: The knee strike will hit it's intended target and have the desired result of immobilizing your attacker and ending the threat. Fight over.

Worst case scenario: The knee strike misses the intended target and does not stop the threat. You have failed to train and do not recognize the fact that the optimal rarely occurs. You hesitate when the desired result does not occur and you get your bell rung or taken to the ground. You have failed to prepare for a likely grapppling situation and you are beaten to a pulp.  Fight over. 

Likely scenario: See the first paragraph. You are a well rounded martial artist who has trained for both stand up and grappling realities. Subsequent strikes or submissions lead to desired end result (threat is neutralized). Fight over.

Bottom line; Don't fail to train for reality. Fights are too dynamic and there are an infinite number of variables to only train for the ideal.

 James


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## softstylist (Sep 17, 2011)

I would agree with what has been said by others about striking what ever target is available at the time but the knee is still a major target to be considered. I come from a jiujitsu background and we always have a hold of the person in some fashion when we strike so kicking the knee is usually done when the attacker is not in a position to see it coming.


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## seasoned (Sep 18, 2011)

softstylist said:


> I would agree with what has been said by others about striking what ever target is available at the time but the knee is still a major target to be considered. I come from a jiujitsu background and *we always have a hold of the person in some fashion when we strike so kicking the knee is usually done when the attacker is not in a position to see it coming.*


Okinawan goju side kick, target, knee.


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## chinto (Sep 26, 2011)

here is my 2 cents worth.  the knee is a good target, so is the ankle and the groin if your fast and have the target, so are the eyes, the throat, under the arm and a lot of other targets!

in a real self defense situation I would say you have 2 things to figure out fast. one, is this life and death or just a stupid person. if in doubt assume and act on its for your life. the other one is simple. how fast can i stop this individual and or him/her and friends?   targets, any you can hit ! if multiple attackers lethal force is authorized in my state. but the one big rule is SURVIVE! DO WHAT EVER YOU HAVE TO TO SURVIVE!  run, jump, fight or kill.


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