# Jigen Ryu, Bushi Matsumura, and Shuri Ryu Connections



## Makalakumu (Jan 24, 2009)

I've just finished reading Patrick McCarthy's 2008 translation of the Bubishi and one of the many profound things I learned in the book is that Bushi Matsumura, the Grandfather of Karate, recieved his Menkyo Kaiden in the Jigen Ryu style of Kenjutsu.  Based on some of the research I've done, I've noticed that they do have empty hand lists that they still practice today.  

Mr. McCarthy includes an interview with the head of the style where he asked the question, does karate influence Jigen Ryu because of Matsumura's presence?  The Soke of Jigen Ryu replied, "Most certainly!  The real question, however, is which influenced which."

All of this is intriguing because I've wondered for a long time at the connection between JMAs and Okinwan Martial Arts.

Also, I'm wondering about how this influence might have played out in the technical details of the various kata that were passed from Matsumura.  McCarthy states that Matsumura blended various CMAs, indiginous Okinawan MAs, and Jigen Ryu into what he taught.  Matsumura's students were people like Itosu and Azato (who is also reputed to have received Menkyo in Jigen Ryu) who were both Gichin Funakoshi's teachers.  Thus it would seem obvious to me that you should see these principles the kata that were passed down that lineage.

Lastly, Jigen Ryu is known for its First Strike.  This school of swordsmanship taught its students to emphasize the first strike above all others, up to a point where it did not teach follow up blows.  I'm wondering if this connection provided the basis for Shotokan's emphasis on the first strike.

Like I said, this connection is very provacative and I'd like to discuss it.  Tell us what you think.  If anyone can find videos of Jigen Ryu, post them!


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 24, 2009)

Here are some Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu vids that I found interesting.









http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Jigen+Ryu&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

Can anyone find some empty hand clips?


----------



## exile (Jan 24, 2009)

A point that Abernethy makes in his _Bunkai-Jutsu_ book might be relevant here, m. He notes that

_During the 11th century, a number of Japanese warriors fleeing from the Taira-Minamoto wars made their way to Okinawa. Many of the Minamoto samurai took Okinawan wives and remained upon the island for the rest of their days. The bujitsu of the Minamoto samurai had a large influence on the fighting methods employed by the Okinawan nobles. *One part of Minamoto bujitsu that had an influence on the development of karate was the idea that all motion is essentially the same. Whether striking, grappling or wielding a weapon, the Minamoto samurai taught that all combative methods relied on similar physical movements. *An individual would be taught a particular physical movement and would then be shown how that movement could be adapted to achieve varying goals._​
(Abernethy, _Bunkai-Jutsu_, pp.16&#8211;17). 

This seems to bear directly on the line of connection you were asking about. If IA is correct, Okinawan karate incorporated techniques, and combat perspectives which go back to weapon-based MAs originating in the castle-era Japanese warrior class.... a Japan-to-Okinawa shaping influence which antedates Matsumura by hundreds of years, and might indicate that the transmission of ideas from JMAs to Okinawan empty-handed combat methods you're thinking of might go back a _loooong_ way.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 24, 2009)

I've used the above to justify the inclusion of Judo style throws into my karate curriculum.  Technically, in some of the kata, the hand placement and footwork is exactly what you find in the kata form of several Judo throws.  

This is a bit different, however.  Here we have an actual lineage and documentation of training that we can look back and say he learned from him and he learned from him and so on.  Matsumura taught the people directly in our lineage, Exile and he drew specifically from Jigen Ryu.  

And, according to McCarthy, the influence can still be seen.  

My guess is that a lot of the joint locking and throwing techniques probably come from the empty hand portions of the Jigen Ryu.  My guess also is that the emphasis on the First Strike, probably also originates here.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 24, 2009)

Here is a website from Harada Sensei.  Anyone speak German better then me?

http://www.jigen-ryu.org/jigenryud.html

Here is a description of Jigen Ryu Jujutsu.



> Jigen Ryu Ryu Jujutsu beinhaltet Harada Senseis Erfahrungen aus den Stilrichtungen Kodokan Judo, Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu und Takuma Ryu Jujutsu. Der stärkste Einfluss ist aber sicher dem Hakko Ryu Jujutsu zuzuschreiben, in welchem Harada Sensei als direkter Schüler des Gründers Okuyama Yoshiji (Ryuho) die höchste Lehrlizenz erreicht hatte. Okuyamas Koho Igaku Shiatsu bildet auch die Grundlage für das Jigen Ryu Shiatsu. Kennzeichnend für das Jigen Ryu Jujutsu ist vor allem die zwingende Wirkung der Techniken, bei gleichzeitigem völligen Verzicht auf die Anwendung von Muskelkraft zur Überwindung der vom Gegner eingesetzten Kraft.
> 
> Mit Kampfkünsten wie Schwertziehen (Iaido oder Iaijutsu  - die beiden Begriffe werden in unserer Schule synonym verwendet) und Bogenschießen (Kyudo) hatte sich Harada Sensei ursprünglich hauptsächlich beschäftigt, um daraus Erkenntnisse für sein Jujutsu zu gewinnen. Vor allem Körperhaltung und Atmung (beim Kyudo), ebenso wie das Greifen des Schwerts beim Halten und besonders beim Schneiden, sowie die Konzentration der Energie auf die Schwertspitze beim Iaido  beeinflussten Harada Senseis Jujutsu.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 24, 2009)

Here is a website of their four empty hand jujutsu lists.

http://www.jigen-ryu.org/jigenryud.html

Can anyone help with the understanding of this?  Some of these lists have the same name as the lists I learned in Danzan Ryu, but I have no idea if they are the same thing.


----------



## exile (Jan 24, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Here we have an actual lineage and documentation of training that we can look back and say he learned from him and he learned from him and so on.  Matsumura taught the people directly in our lineage, Exile and he drew specifically from Jigen Ryu.
> 
> And, according to McCarthy, the influence can still be seen.
> 
> *My guess is that a lot of the joint locking and throwing techniques probably come from the empty hand portions of the Jigen Ryu.*  My guess also is that the emphasis on the First Strike, probably also originates here.



If it pans out, this bit of historical sleuthing provides the perfect rebuttal to people (like Rob Redmond) who dispute the relevance of controlling moves, such as locks, pins and throws, for karate and related arts and who instead attribute the current movement to rediscover such moves in kata as a defensive reaction to the rise and popularity of MMA. To show the influence of Jigen Ryu empty-hand methods on Sokon Matsumura would be to vindicate completely the kind of bunkai you, I and many other people see as the optimal interpretation of formal patterns in the karate-based arts.

Well done, m.!


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 24, 2009)

Thanks, Exile. My german is not strong enough to get the nuances. Do you have a good translation site that you rely on? I've got family in _Der Vaterland_ that could probably help also.

BTW - I can't believe someone would suggest that locking and throwing would NOT be part of the curriculum for self defense.  Even a cursory look at the kata would disprove that.  The sad thing about Redmond is that he runs a pretty popular website and he has the potential to influence a lot of people.

Alas, hopefully this will put the nails into that coffin.  On the other hand, some people simply will never change.  It doesn't matter what you show them or say.  I think that for karateka, it comes down to ego.  If you can't admit that you didn't learn something and you think of your self as an expert, you can't EVER let anyone think that something this obvious could be true.  

Academics, martial arts, bells and ribbons becoming more important then the material.  I see parellels between this and the way the scientific community reacted when Agassiz presented his findings on the Ice Ages.


----------



## exile (Jan 25, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Thanks, Exile.  My german is not strong enough to get the nuances.  Do you have a good translation site that you rely on?  I've got family in _Der Vaterland_ that could probably help also.



Sorry, but I'm going to be useless here&#8212;wait, maybe not! One of my colleagues is German&#8212;she'd be happy to give me an idiomatic translation off the top of her head (since her English, minus the slight German accent she still has, is flawless). Lemme show her the passage and I'll post her translation as soon as I get it from her.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 25, 2009)

exile said:


> Sorry, but I'm going to be useless herewait, maybe not! One of my colleagues is Germanshe'd be happy to give me an idiomatic translation off the top of her head (since her English, minus the slight German accent she still has, is flawless). Lemme show her the passage and I'll post her translation as soon as I get it from her.


 
Thanks for that, Exile.  I have a cousin who lives in Hamburg.  She married a Polish immigrant and bounces back and forth from there and Manhatten, so if that doesn't work out, I'm not up a creek without a paddle.

Just to keep this discussion going, here are some videos from one of their empty hand lists.

http://www.jigen-ryu.org/jigenryud.html

Video one

Video two

Video Three

Also, the photos are pretty helpful in understanding the list.  If anyone practices Karate and Aikijutsu, I'd be interested to hear what you think of this.


----------



## exile (Jan 25, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Thanks for that, Exile.  I have a cousin who lives in Hamburg.  She married a Polish immigrant and bounces back and forth from there and Manhatten, so if that doesn't work out, I'm not up a creek without a paddle.
> 
> Just to keep this discussion going, here are some videos from one of their empty hand lists.
> 
> ...



Not to worry. My colleague Judith can do this in five minutes or less. Will post as soon as I get a translation from her.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 25, 2009)

exile said:


> Not to worry. My colleague Judith can do this in five minutes or less. Will post as soon as I get a translation from her.



That's awesome!  

Now, I'm seeing some close quarters applications from Naihanchi 1-3 in the vids and photos I posted.  There is certainly more in those forms, but I can see the movements reflect there.

This is so interesting because this thread has the potential to pull in judoka, jujutsuka, aikidoka and all sorts of different folks that practice koryu arts.  I wish there was a way to put out a clarion call to more people.


----------



## exile (Jan 25, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> That's awesome!
> 
> Now, I'm seeing some close quarters applications from Naihanchi 1-3 in the vids and photos I posted.  There is certainly more in those forms, but I can see the movements reflect there.
> 
> This is so interesting because this thread has the potential to pull in judoka, jujutsuka, aikidoka and all sorts of different folks that practice koryu arts. * I wish there was a way to put out a clarion call to more people.*



I agree. Why not send solicitations to participate to the relevant separate fora in the JMA section? Just include the link to this thread, pointing out that this is a great chance for some practical collaborative work across stylistic boundaries. I suspect Tom (morph4me) and some of the other JMA folk would be more than a little interested in this line of inquiry.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 25, 2009)

Here is a general description of the Jigen Ryu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigen-ry&#363;



> Jigen-ry&#363; (&#31034;&#29694;&#27969 is a traditional school (kory&#363 of Japanese martial arts founded in the late 16th century by Togo Chui (1561-1643) in Satsuma Province, now Kagoshima prefecture, Kyushu, Japan.[1] It focuses mainly on the art of swordsmanship.
> 
> Jigen ry&#363; is known for its emphasis on the first strike: Jigen-ryu teachings state that a second strike is not even to be considered.[2]
> 
> ...


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 25, 2009)

Here is the wiki entry on Sokon Matsumura.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S&#333;kon_Matsumura

This entry talks specifically about Jigen Ryu.



> He was the first to introduce the principles of Satsuma's swordsmanship school, Jigen-ry&#363;, into Ry&#363;ky&#363; kobujutsu (Ryukyuan traditional martial arts) and he is credited with creating the foundation for the bojutsu of Tsuken. He passed on Jigen-ry&#363; to some of his students, including Ank&#333; Asato and Itarashiki Chochu. The Tsuken Bo tradition was perfected by Tsuken Seisoku Ueekata of Shuri.[4]



Interesting.  Perhaps much of the usage of the Bo in Kobudo comes from Jigen Ryu as well.  I wonder how many other weapons, besides the sword they teach?


----------



## seasoned (Jan 25, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Thanks, Exile. My german is not strong enough to get the nuances. Do you have a good translation site that you rely on? I've got family in _Der Vaterland_ that could probably help also.
> 
> BTW - I can't believe someone would suggest that locking and throwing would NOT be part of the curriculum for self defense. Even a cursory look at the kata would disprove that. The sad thing about Redmond is that he runs a pretty popular website and he has the potential to influence a lot of people.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you, for a very informative post. It has been long understood by some, that traditional kata contain all elements of battle, as you point out, with you diligent research. It has always been said, in my GoJu training  dont show me 1000 techniques, but show me a few principles of movement, that are inherent in all techniques. As shown in kata, movements overlap, and Bunkai has many different meanings, which constitutes many arts combined. 
 :asian:


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 25, 2009)

According to McCarthy, Toudi Sakagawa (Matsumura's teacher) and Sokon Matsumura both traveled to Satsuma in Japan in order to learn Jigen Ryu.

Here is some more information on Satsuma, the Shimazu Clan, and a possible direct connection to Aikijutsu.



> The Shimazu were descendants of the Seiwa Genji branch of the Minamoto clan. The founder, Shimazu Tadahisa (d. 1227), was a son of _Shogun_ Minamoto no Yoritomo (1147-1199) with the sister of Hiki Yoshikazu. Tadahisa's wife was a daughter of Koremune Hironobu, descendant of the Hata clan, whose name Tadahisa took at first.


 
What this information does is that it connects empty hand techniques in Jigen Ryu with actual instructors in the arts that formed aikijutsu disciplines.  Ijuin Yashichiro is not on family tree I provided, but many other important people among the Shimazu Samurai were.  In my opinion, from all of this presented, it can directly be inferred that aikijutsu and jujutsu had a direct impact on the devolopment of our modern karate kata.  

Here is a more direct description of the Seiwa Genji branch and the people involved.  These are the people who became the Shimazu and these are the people who passed on the techniques of Aikijutsu.  I personally note the Takeda Family because my teacher trained extensively in Takeda Ryu Aikijutsu under Master Dale Swerdtfeger.  It would probably be safe to assume that there would be similarities between Jigen and Takeda Ryu empty hand lists.


----------



## chinto01 (Jan 26, 2009)

Let me start by saying that this is a great topic! I tried to click on the videos but they do not link anymore. Anyone else having this problem?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 26, 2009)

The videos come from their first empty hand list Shoden no Maki.  The link I provided takes you to the page where you can access the videos and photos.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 26, 2009)

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

I found this translation website.  It works pretty good for basic words.  This might be useful for this discussion.


----------



## exile (Jan 26, 2009)

I sent a note to my colleage Judith earlier this morning about that German passage; should hear from her at one point this afternoon. Will let you all know when she replies.


----------



## exile (Jan 26, 2009)

And here we go!

_Jigen Ryu Ryu Jujutsu beinhaltet Harada Senseis Erfahrungen aus den Stilrichtungen Kodokan Judo, Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu und Takuma Ryu Jujutsu. Der stärkste Einfluss ist aber sicher dem Hakko Ryu Jujutsu zuzuschreiben, in welchem Harada Sensei als direkter Schüler des Gründers Okuyama Yoshiji (Ryuho) die höchste Lehrlizenz erreicht hatte. Okuyamas Koho Igaku Shiatsu bildet auch die Grundlage für das Jigen Ryu Shiatsu. Kennzeichnend für das Jigen Ryu Jujutsu ist vor allem die zwingende Wirkung der Techniken, bei gleichzeitigem völligen Verzicht auf die Anwendung von Muskelkraft zur Überwindung der vom Gegner eingesetzten Kraft.
_

JRRJ contains HS's experiences from the styles KJ, DRA and TRJ. But the strongest influence surely comes from  the HRJ, in which HS had achieved, as a direct student of the founder OY (R), the highest teaching qualification. Okuyama's KIS is also the foundation for JRS. A distinct property of JRJ is mainly that the techniques are forcefully/definitely in effect [I would probably be able to give a better translation here if I knew what they are talking about] while at the same time there is a complete dispensation with using muscle power to conquer the power used by the opponent.


_Mit Kampfkünsten wie Schwertziehen (Iaido oder Iaijutsu - die beiden Begriffe werden in unserer Schule synonym verwendet) und Bogenschießen (Kyudo) hatte sich Harada Sensei ursprünglich hauptsächlich beschäftigt, um daraus Erkenntnisse für sein Jujutsu zu gewinnen. Vor allem Körperhaltung und Atmung (beim Kyudo), ebenso wie das Greifen des Schwerts beim Halten und besonders beim Schneiden, sowie die Konzentration der Energie auf die Schwertspitze beim Iaido beeinflussten Harada Senseis Jujutsu._

Originally, HS had mainly concerned himself with martial arts like "pulling a sword"? (Schwertziehen) (Iaido or Iaijutsu -- the two notions are synonyms in our school) and shooting with bow and arrows (Kyudo) to gain experiences for his Jujutsu. Body posture and breathing (in Kyudo) as well as the grabbing of the sword when holding it and cutting, as well as the concentration of the energy on the tip of the sword in Iaido influenced Harada Sensei's Jujutsu.

Original text in italics, translation in red, Judith's editorial comments in green.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 26, 2009)

It sounds like Harada Sensei has a lot of experience in other JMA, but that he's attempted to preserve Jigen Ryu.  I think this connection is pretty solid evidence of a connection between Shuri-Ryu and aikijutsu and jujutsu.  What do you think the implications of this would be?


----------



## kaizasosei (Jan 26, 2009)

just to help complete the translation 




> _Okuyamas Koho Igaku Shiatsu bildet auch die Grundlage für das Jigen Ryu Shiatsu. Kennzeichnend für das Jigen Ryu Jujutsu ist vor allem die zwingende Wirkung der Techniken, bei gleichzeitigem völligen Verzicht auf die Anwendung von Muskelkraft zur Überwindung der vom Gegner eingesetzten Kraft._


 
Okuyamas Koho Igaku Shiatsu also forms the basis for the jigen ryu shiatsu.  Jigen Ryu is characterized by the forcefull effect of its techniques while at the same time completely refraining from the use of muscular power. 
----------------------------------------------------------------

j


----------



## TimoS (Jan 27, 2009)

Sorry, I have to be the sceptic in this discussion, but I really would like to see what are concrete influences of Jigen ryu on Shorin ryu?  Or, as the soke seems to imply, maybe the influence was the other way round and Matsumura's te influenced Jigen ryu somehow (and I would still like to see how). As I see it, Matsumura's legacy is best seen in these two kata: Seisan and Gojushiho and I have a hard time imaging any influence on those from sword work, especially Jigen ryu's "crazy granny" style kenjutsu. BTW, Shuri ryu is something totally different and has nothing whatsoever to do with Bushi Matsumura and his teachings.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 27, 2009)

TimoS said:


> Sorry, I have to be the sceptic in this discussion, but I really would like to see what are concrete influences of Jigen ryu on Shorin ryu? Or, as the soke seems to imply, maybe the influence was the other way round and Matsumura's te influenced Jigen ryu somehow (and I would still like to see how). As I see it, Matsumura's legacy is best seen in these two kata: Seisan and Gojushiho and I have a hard time imaging any influence on those from sword work, especially Jigen ryu's "crazy granny" style kenjutsu. BTW, Shuri ryu is something totally different and has nothing whatsoever to do with Bushi Matsumura and his teachings.


 
Shuri and Shorin may be completely different now, but they both drew on the teachings of Matsumura in some way.  I would say that their empty hand lists would help you understand some of the tuite you find in the various kata.  Also, some of the throwing and lifting seem to look as if they are mimicked in aikijutsu and jujutsu.  I've been looking for videos of these, but haven't been very successful.  I do, however, have some background in Takada Ryu and Danzan Ryu and I can see some similarities in my own training.  Anyway, what exactly would you be looking for?  You aren't going to see people in Jigen Ryu performing karate kata...

BTW - the training video that gets laughed at so often, as it was explained to me, the exercise is something meant to build strength and fighting spirit.


----------



## TimoS (Jan 27, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Shuri and Shorin may be completely different now, but they both drew on the teachings of Matsumura in some way



No, what I meant is that what is now known as Shuri ryu has nothing whatsoever to do with Matsumura. "Shuri-te" (a term that is somewhat misleading) evolved into Shorin ryu. Historically speaking there never was a "Shuri ryu" back in the days of Bushi Matsumura, as the concept of ryu in karate (or ti back in those days) just wasn't there. There was e.g. the ti of Bushi Matsumura or the ti of Chan Migwa aka Chotoku Kyan. The whole concept of named ryu came later. Shuri ryu is something put together by Robert Trias.



> Also, some of the throwing and lifting seem to look as if they are mimicked in aikijutsu and jujutsu



Well, the thing about karate kata is, you will find stuff that looks more or less the same in just about any martial art. Hell, I've seen stuff in Praying mantis and Hung Gar kung-fu that looks similar to the applications of karate kata. Doesn't mean they are related in anyway.



> BTW - the training video that gets laughed at so often, as it was explained to me, the exercise is something meant to build strength and fighting spirit.


Yes, I know


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 27, 2009)

TimoS said:


> No, what I meant is that what is now known as Shuri ryu has nothing whatsoever to do with Matsumura. "Shuri-te" (a term that is somewhat misleading) evolved into Shorin ryu. Historically speaking there never was a "Shuri ryu" back in the days of Bushi Matsumura, as the concept of ryu in karate (or ti back in those days) just wasn't there. There was e.g. the ti of Bushi Matsumura or the ti of Chan Migwa aka Chotoku Kyan. The whole concept of named ryu came later. Shuri ryu is something put together by Robert Trias.



Thank you for making that distinction.  I suppose the usage of any modern terms is going to be problematic because the origins of the terms are quite nebulous.  You make an interesting point in regards to "Matsumura Te" or "Kyan Te" or etc.  Am I correct in the assumption that you are saying that back "in those days" karate was very personalized?



TimoS said:


> Well, the thing about karate kata is, you will find stuff that looks more or less the same in just about any martial art. Hell, I've seen stuff in Praying mantis and Hung Gar kung-fu that looks similar to the applications of karate kata. Doesn't mean they are related in anyway.



True, but the point here is that we've got documented proof that Karate is linked back through people like Matsumura to specific arts who were taught by specific people.  Patrick McCarthy does an excellent job, IMO, of showing these connections in his 2008 edition of his translation of the Bubishi.

While karate may resemble other arts like praying mantis or hung gar, it doesn't, as you say, mean that there is a connection.  The difference between this and Jigen Ryu or Fukien White Crane or Monk Fist Boxing (as Patrick McCarthy has shown) is that there IS a connection between those arts in karate.  The resemblance is NOT circumstantial.  

In fact, McCarthy shows in his book how the two forms that you provided above, Seisan and Gojushiho, both have analogues in systems of Quanfa that were imported from China.  Please forgive me if this is information that you already know.  

My point in this thread is that I believe the connection to Jigen Ryu connects karate to aikijutsu and jujutsu concepts.  Jigen Ryu has four empty hand lists that were passed on through a direct lineage.  I do not know if the lists that Matsumura would have learned would be the same as what is taught today, but I think it's a safe assumption styles of throwing, locking, unbalancing, and redirecting using body placement and technique that are found in aiki and ju jutsu schools would also be found in karate kata.  

This information is very valuable for people who are training in dojos where the applications of the kata have been de-emphasized.  



TimoS said:


> Yes, I know



As to the swordsmanship, I'm not sure what relationship it may have.  The first thing that comes to mind, however, is makiwara training.  The Jigen Ryu is known for whacking poles against standing targets or targets as were portrayed in the video alone.  In some pictures I have seen, students of Jigen Ryu were required to perform cuts on standing poles so many times that over time, the poles were eroded inward on both sides.  This every day "sword makiwara" practice would seem to be analogous.

Also, I wish that I were more familiar with kobudo because another point that McCarthy makes is that six foot staff and many other weapons were introduced to the Okinawans by the Shimazu.  So much so, that Matsumura and his teacher Sakagawa traveled to Japan and were taught Jigen Ryu and were allowed to bring it back to Okinawan and spread it among the countryside.  The belief was that, should Okinawa be invaded from outside, the familiarity with weapons would cause the island to be better defended.

I have not been able to determine if modern Jigen Ryu teaches any other weapons besides sword, however.


----------



## TimoS (Jan 27, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Am I correct in the assumption that you are saying that back "in those days" karate was very personalized?



Kind of, yes. Back in Bushi Matsumura's days and those before him, the kata list of the masters was probably much shorter and it is only later on that we begin to see that the masters collected several kata from different instructors. Just as an example let us consider two Shorin ryu greats: Kyan and Itosu, who were probably the two most influential masters in Shorin ryu lineages (although they themselves didn't name their styles). Off the top of my head I cannot remember who were Itosu's teachers, except for Bushi Matsumura, but Kyan studied under Matsumura, his father and maybe also grandfather, Maeda, Oyadomari, Matsumora, Yara and Tokumine. From each of these masters (well except for his father and grandfather) he picked up one or two kata. Itosu, on the other hand, had (at least partially) different instructors, so his kata curriculum looks different. His karate also looks quite different. 




> True, but the point here is that we've got documented proof that Karate is linked back through people like Matsumura to specific arts who were taught by specific people.  Patrick McCarthy does an excellent job, IMO, of showing these connections in his 2008 edition of his translation of the Bubishi.



I may have to get that edition. I have one that is few years old



> While karate may resemble other arts like praying mantis or hung gar, it doesn't, as you say, mean that there is a connection.  The difference between this and Jigen Ryu or Fukien White Crane or Monk Fist Boxing (as Patrick McCarthy has shown) is that there IS a connection between those arts in karate.  The resemblance is NOT circumstantial.



Well, yes, there is a connection between some chinese arts and karate, but so far the connections have been established to the Goju and other more recent "imports". Shorin ryu has roots that go much much further and no-one's been able to satisfactorily show that what are the root styles of Shorin ryu, when, how and by whom they imported to Okinawa



> In fact, McCarthy shows in his book how the two forms that you provided above, Seisan and Gojushiho, both have analogues in systems of Quanfa that were imported from China.  Please forgive me if this is information that you already know.



Ok, now I really need to get that edition



> My point in this thread is that I believe the connection to Jigen Ryu connects karate to aikijutsu and jujutsu concepts.  Jigen Ryu has four empty hand lists that were passed on through a direct lineage.  I do not know if the lists that Matsumura would have learned would be the same as what is taught today, but I think it's a safe assumption styles of throwing, locking, unbalancing, and redirecting using body placement and technique that are found in aiki and ju jutsu schools would also be found in karate kata.



Here's kind of another problem I have with that: Shorin styles don't have a whole lot of locking techniques and throws in them. Yes, some, but according to Zenpo Shimabukuro, the main emphasis is on kicks, punches and blocks. The "Shuri-te" was after all the art of king of Okinawa's bodyguards and when you're protecting the king, you dispatch the would-be assailants as quickly as possible and if they happen to die in the process, well, that's just too bad. Locks and throws, IMHO, don't fit that well into that. 



> This information is very valuable for people who are training in dojos where the applications of the kata have been de-emphasized.



Well, yes, again, kind of. On the other hand, if you are missing the applications, why not go back to the roots instead of trying to "reverse engineer" the applications from moves in kata? After all, there are plenty of styles where the applications have never been lost. I understand that that isn't always possible, especially if the kata have been heavily modified for one reason or another.




> Also, I wish that I were more familiar with kobudo because another point that McCarthy makes is that six foot staff and many other weapons were introduced to the Okinawans by the Shimazu.  So much so, that Matsumura and his teacher Sakagawa traveled to Japan and were taught Jigen Ryu and were allowed to bring it back to Okinawan and spread it among the countryside.  The belief was that, should Okinawa be invaded from outside, the familiarity with weapons would cause the island to be better defended.



Now this I find even harder to believe. First of all, the staff is such a basic weapon that most likely every culture has at some point in their history adopted it to be used as a weapon. Also, the staff work that I've seen from mainland Japan is quite different from the Okinawan staff work and also, most japanese staff arts are, to my understanding, more or less geared towards use on the battlefield or at least against a sword wielding assailant. The okinawan stuff looks to me more geared towards e.g. law enforcement usage



> I have not been able to determine if modern Jigen Ryu teaches any other weapons besides sword, however.



I've sent a query about that to a friend who knows quite a lot about these things.


----------



## TimoS (Jan 27, 2009)

Ok, almost forgot to mention this: it is quite possible that Seisan in some form can still be found in chinese martial arts. After all, it is a kata that can be found in (at least) Goju, Uechi and some Shorin schools. Each different, but I believe each derive from the same kata. However, we do not know when the Shorin ryu version was brought to Okinawa. And Gojushiho is a totally different story altogether, so far no-one's been able to find anything like it in China. But I guess I'll have to get the Bubishi and see what McCarthy writes.

Just as an interesting comparison, check here http://www.cyberbudo.com/budosai/2007_video.php and you can see four different versions of Sanchin kata: two okinawan (Morio Higaonna and Shinyu Guchi) and two chinese versions. They're all in highlights part 4.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 27, 2009)

TimoS said:


> Here's kind of another problem I have with that: Shorin styles don't have a whole lot of locking techniques and throws in them. Yes, some, but according to Zenpo Shimabukuro, the main emphasis is on kicks, punches and blocks. The "Shuri-te" was after all the art of king of Okinawa's bodyguards and when you're protecting the king, you dispatch the would-be assailants as quickly as possible and if they happen to die in the process, well, that's just too bad. Locks and throws, IMHO, don't fit that well into that.



One would think that breaking a joint or bone and/or tossing someone on their head would protect the king as well?

It's interesting when you start to compare the body positioning that happens in certain aikijutsu and jujutsu styles and look for similarities in kata.  There are places in kata where you simply aren't where your attack thought you would be so that you either run into a strike or you find yourself completely unbalanced and falling to the ground.  Also, there are places in the kata where the grabbing twisting and breaking seem very obvious.  

In both cases, when I've learned empty hand lists from aiki or ju arts, I've been amazed at the similarities.  For me, coming from an art that has de-emphasized the applications, an art that I don't want to quit, "reverse engineering" is one of the options that I have which goes alongside learning what the original application was.  It's not a dirty word in my karate vocabulary.

That said, I find it exciting to see that there may be an actual historical link to some of the other arts that I've trained in and what I'm doing in karate now.  I think that some of the throws and locks and other stuff that I learned doing that, really does apply to kata also and may have always been a part of the kata.  

I've had a chance to train with several Okinawan practitioners over the years.  People from Isshinryu, Ryu Te, Shorin Ryu, and Goju.  I've had a chance to learn some of "the real" applications and I see the connections there too.

That said, I also see some major differences.  I guess my point remains the same, if Matsumura really did combine elements of indigenous Okinawan arts, elements of Quanfa, and Jigen Ryu into "Matsumura Te" then the similarities that I've noticed shouldn't be surprising.  Nor should they be considered coincidental.


----------

