# Bouncing in Poomsae



## wendyh (Feb 3, 2015)

Hello. I've trained for two years under my grandmaster and his students. Sometimes I go online to study new forms. I have noticed that I can't seem to find many videos in which the practitioner is NOT bouncing up and down after every movement in his form. Nobody I train with ever does this during forms. My boyfriend trains in Shotokan and no one in his school does this either. Is this a very common thing and is there logic behind it? What are you thoughts. Thanks!


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## TrueJim (Feb 3, 2015)

In Kukkiwon/WTF taekwondo, there's no bouncing...you're supposed to keep your head-height level throughout the form. 

However, some styles of ITF Chang Hon taekwondo do bounce...this is called the "sine wave."  You can read about it here: Taekwondo Sine Wave - Taekwondo Wiki


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## wendyh (Feb 3, 2015)

Huh. That's really interesting. Thank you


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 3, 2015)

If you're seeing a ton of bouncing, you're probably looking up Chang Hon forms as performed by ITF practitioners. The sine wave was introduced by General Choi in the mid- to late- 1970's. More correctly, I should say that's when I was first introduced to it. I'm sure it took a few years to spread...The presence or lack of sine wave in forms (commonly called "tul", not poomsae in Chang Hon systems) is an indicator of when a particular branch split off from the ITF.
Systems using the Palgwae, Taegeuk Songam or Pinan forms do not typically use sine wave movement.


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## Buka (Feb 3, 2015)

I haven't trained in TKD for some time, my instructor's TKD school is now in Japan. (I know, Japan, go figure....the commute is a real beech ) but the guys I always loved to fight were the bouncers. Just time the bounce - it was like ice cream on Christmas morning.


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## wendyh (Feb 3, 2015)

I still see it very often in Palgwe but I guess that would be up to the instructor to teach or not.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2015)

Buka said:


> the guys I always loved to fight were the bouncers. Just time the bounce - it was like ice cream on Christmas morning.


When your opponent goes up, he has to come down. When a lion tries to attack a deer, you just don't see that lion bounces up and down before it's attack.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 4, 2015)

Can you link to some of these videos? There aren't a whole lot of good videos of these forms out there. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## TrueJim (Feb 4, 2015)

wendyh said:


> I still see it very often in Palgwe but I guess that would be up to the instructor to teach or not.



You raise a good point Wendy, one that I've never much thought about before. The Palgwae forms are not part of General Choi's "sine wave" ...and yet we do tend to see a lot of _bouncing_ in the Palgwae forms in the videos on YourTube.

The best videos for the Palgwae forms that I've been able to find on YouTube are from "Master Park's Black Belt America" and they are a bit _bouncy_. Master Park s Black Belt America - YouTube  I've always assumed that the person in the video is intentionally slowing-down and exaggerating the movements in order to make the movements clearer.  (Just like people who make "sine wave" videos often exaggerate the sine wave in order to make it clearer.) But maybe that school actually teaches that bounciness. The school my son and I attend also does Palgwae forms (in addition to the Taegeuk forms) and we're not taught to bounce at all.


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## Gnarlie (Feb 4, 2015)

Youtube search 'Kukkiwon Palgwe' returns the official Kukkiwon videos for the Palgwe forms. Without sine wave.


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## Instructor (Feb 5, 2015)

In my TKD days we did the Chang Hon forms without the Sine Wave.  More Hip twist.  Frankly it looked a lot more like Karate.  First time I visited a school and they were bouncing around and the teacher told me in no uncertain terms that if I wasn't bouncing I was doing it wrong, well it kind of put me off TKD.  It wasn't the only thing but may have been the straw that broke the camels back.

Hapkido was always a better fit for me...


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## Archtkd (Feb 6, 2015)

wendyh said:


> Hello. I've trained for two years under my grandmaster and his students. Sometimes I go online to study new forms. I have noticed that I can't seem to find many videos in which the practitioner is NOT bouncing up and down after every movement in his form. Nobody I train with ever does this during forms. My boyfriend trains in Shotokan and no one in his school does this either. Is this a very common thing and is there logic behind it? What are you thoughts. Thanks!



What have you been training in for two years? Why are you using unverified online  training sources on the internet instead of relying on your grandmaster -- the qualifed  teacher you are paying to teach you?  Have you asked your grandmaster for the correct videos of whatever style he is teaching?


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## Archtkd (Feb 6, 2015)

wendyh said:


> I still see it very often in Palgwe but I guess that would be up to the instructor to teach or not.



The Kukkiwon no longer recognizes Palgwe forms as officia poomsae in Kukki style taekwondo, but here are the forms as taught in the past by Grandmaster Lee Kyu Hyun, a former chairman of the Kukkiwon's academic committee and former president of the Kukkiwon's World Taekwondo Academy. Note, he is not to be confused with GM Lee Kyu Hyung, former president of the Kukkiwon and also another great poomsae teacher. The pacing of the poomsae in the videos is done at instruction pace. Often people will look at the videos and mistakenly always perform the poomsae at that pace -- complete with the halting which the instructor is making for clarity.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 6, 2015)

I've never studied Palge forms, but it's interesting to me that Palge il jang is very similar to what we callled Kibon Poomsae. The clip below isn't from my school, but that's the form we did.

In terms of the question of boucing, my current master always tells me that I bounce too much.  But it seems more natural to me to go down if I go from a shorter stance to a punch + longer stance.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 6, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I've never studied Palge forms, but it's interesting to me that Palge il jang is very similar to what we callled Kibon Poomsae. The clip below isn't from my school, but that's the form we did.
> 
> In terms of the question of boucing, my current master always tells me that I bounce too much.  But it seems more natural to me to go down if I go from a shorter stance to a punch + longer stance.


 
Kibon (or kicho) just means "basic" forms. We teach 6 of them. The kicho forms are all very similar, and since moving from the kicho forms to the palgwae is a baby step, taken at a very low level, I suspect that the siimilarity is intentional.

I'm at work right now, so I can't see the video you posted, but I'll look at it when I am able.


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## Shajikfer (Mar 27, 2015)

A good way to practice keeping head level is to practice moving in your stances while holding a cup of water in your palm. Took me quite a while to get it down, but it really helped drill the idea into my head to keep my head level when I move.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 27, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I've never studied Palge forms, but it's interesting to me that Palge il jang is very similar to what we callled Kibon Poomsae. The clip below isn't from my school, but that's the form we did.
> 
> In terms of the question of boucing, my current master always tells me that I bounce too much.  But it seems more natural to me to go down if I go from a shorter stance to a punch + longer stance.



The video you posted is kicho 1, the first of 6 we teach. Students must learn this form before they're allowed to wear a dobak. 
I assume this person is performing the form correctly by the standards of his school, but not by ours. 
There is waaayyyyyy too much bouncy bouncy. 
He opens his hands during chambers, rather than maintaining a tight fist. 
He's looking around, not maintaining focus on his targets. 
His punches are too high. Middle punches should be aimed at the solar plexus. 
He's wearing a 3rd Dan belt, but apparently can't tie it evenly. 



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## TrueJim (Mar 27, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> The video you posted is kicho 1, the first of 6 we teach.



I'd be interested to know what the 6 kicho forms are that you teach. At the school my son and I attend, they teach 3 kicho ("kibon") forms, all variations essentially of Hwang Kee's kicho hyeong (il bu, ee bu, and sam bu). Do you use something like for your first three? And then what do you do for the next three?


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2015)

Archtkd said:


> What have you been training in for two years? Why are you using unverified online  training sources on the internet instead of relying on your grandmaster -- the qualifed  teacher you are paying to teach you?  Have you asked your grandmaster for the correct videos of whatever style he is teaching?




Bit harsh that, the lass is curious and why not, it's 2015 not 1815.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 27, 2015)

wendyh said:


> bouncing up and down ...


It's called "fire" strategy, one of many strategies used in MA.


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## Shajikfer (Mar 27, 2015)

Archtkd said:


> What have you been training in for two years? Why are you using unverified online  training sources on the internet instead of relying on your grandmaster -- the qualifed  teacher you are paying to teach you?  Have you asked your grandmaster for the correct videos of whatever style he is teaching?


 

As to relying solely on your grandmaster, the exploration of martial arts and further research into what you are practicing I think MUST be done.

For example; the Chung Do Kwan system I learned was radically changed from how I have observed others practicing the same style. This doesn't mean what I trained in was wrong per se, it just highlights the necessity to double check and make sure you are being taught what you have been told you are practicing, and varify whether or not your teacher has done this.

And that has nothing to do with them being qualified or not.

Additionally, across 7 styles of TKD one can literally end up doing 7 different versions of Koryo. And while I do understand something of the necessity of this through standardization of WTF, I have also watched over the last twenty years Tae Kwon Do become watered down in my opinion; such as the stances moving from being deeper as they are traditionally, to being even more raised than the same stances found in karate.

Additionally, just because the WTF endorses a single style of TKD (in the sense that they expect you to do a series of poomsae and techniques a very specific, certain way) does not mean that the other styles of doing TKD aren't equally valid. I started with WTF and gradually moved to systems that would fall under the ITF, and I have heard people in the WTF system at certain times refer to ITF as being 'unauthentic'.

I've seen arms crossed to initiate blocks, fist from hip, hand from shoulder, arms parralel before blocking and so on. None of these are wrong in terms of being 'authentic' from each other, save that only one method is what the WTF recognizes.

And considering for the survival of the art in the 1950s masters were sent across the world to ensure its continuance, I see no practical issue with the fact there are various styles of TKD that originated because of that.

I was very fortunate to train under grandmaster Jhoon Rhee for a time, as well as descendants of his students, but by no means would I ever say that his methods are the only right ones. That would be a disservice to venerable masters such as Won Kuk Lee, Hwang Kee and so on.


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2015)




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## Dirty Dog (Mar 28, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> I'd be interested to know what the 6 kicho forms are that you teach. At the school my son and I attend, they teach 3 kicho ("kibon") forms, all variations essentially of Hwang Kee's kicho hyeong (il bu, ee bu, and sam bu). Do you use something like for your first three? And then what do you do for the next three?



I don't know of any online resources showing the Kicho forms. Doesn't mean there are none, mind you, just that I've never looked for any. And since I am currently at work, I can't do so right now - YouTube is a banned site.

The kicho forms all follow the same "I" pattern on the floor. 
Kicho 2 includes high punches and high blocks.
Kicho 3 includes back stances, horse stances, outside middle blocks and side punches.
Kicho 4 includes reverse punches and triple punches.
Kicho 5 includes the cat stance, double punches and hook punches.
Kicho 6 includes palm up knifehand strikes, knee strikes, middle knifehand blocks and front snap kicks.
I am not entirely certain, but I think that the first 3 are either the ones taught by GM HWANG, Kee or derived from them. I do not know the origins of the last 3.


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## donald1 (Mar 28, 2015)

Buka said:


> it was like ice cream on Christmas morning.



What??


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## TrueJim (Mar 28, 2015)

Because they're so non-standardized, I've always found beginner forms really interesting.

We have the three classic forms often attributed to Hwang Kee, the kicho hyeong (il bu, ee bu, sam bu)
Then we have some new variants of those three, that usually go by the name kibon (hana, dool, set)
Then it seems we have the "sae kye" variants of the Hwang Kee forms (used in some _Tang Soo Do_ schools I believe) that replace some of the punches with front snap kicks.
Then we have Chuck Norris's _Chun Kuk Do_ variants, where instead of _replacing_ the punches with kicks, they basically just add front-snap-kicks before the punches (so that you get kick-punch combinations).
The final three that Dirty Dog mentions...I've never seen any reference to beginner forms like those. That's really interesting.

Kicho Hyeong Il Bu - Taekwondo Wiki


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## Archtkd (Mar 30, 2015)

Shajikfer said:


> As to relying solely on your grandmaster, the exploration of martial arts and further research into what you are practicing I think MUST be done. ...  This doesn't mean what I trained in was wrong per se, it just highlights the necessity to double check and make sure you are being taught what you have been told you are practicing, and varify whether or not your teacher has done this.



That's an interesting way to encourage taekwondo beginners to learn well. Find a good teacher,  pay them, but confirm if they are teaching you the correct thing in random discusssions on Martial Talk.


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## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2015)

Archtkd said:


> That's an interesting way to encourage taekwondo beginners to learn well. Find a good teacher,  pay them, but confirm if they are teaching you the correct thing in random discusssions on Martial Talk.




and get snarky replies from other random posters.

She was curious not checking whether her instructor was 'correct'....you aren't her instructor are you which would account for the archness of your posts. She's here for info not to be told off like a naughty little girl.


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## TrueJim (Mar 30, 2015)

Shajikfer said:


> As to relying solely on your grandmaster, the exploration of martial arts and further research into what you are practicing I think MUST be done...



Agreed. Even if it didn't *need* to be done, why in heaven's name would a person not *want* to do it? If a person is really into football, they're going to want to read about football. If a person is really into basketball, they're going to want to learn more about basketball.

It seems to me, it stands to reason that if a person is really _into_ taekwondo - like, they really enjoy it - they're just naturally going to want to read more about it, participate in forums, ask questions, talk to people from other schools and at tournaments, watch videos online...learn all the different ways people do things, or how things came to be the way they are. I can't imagine being sincerely into any sport, hobby, pastime, or martial art and at the same time not be curious enough to want to learn as much as I can from as many sources as I can.


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