# The Fook Sau.



## Seeker (Sep 11, 2008)

Tonight we did chi sao and just about everyone punched right through my fook sau. Never had this problem before or just never realized it. I seem to do well in dan chi sau, but that's a different enviroment. I asked for pointers and got many "elbow on center-line" "forward energy" type replies. 

But I would like some pointers on how to improve my fook sau. I know it's probably near impossible without seeing or feeling what I am doing wrong to determine where I went wrong. So general tips would probably be of benefit.

Thanks.


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## martyg (Sep 11, 2008)

It would be good to start with how your family teaches/performs its fuk sao?  There's lots of variations, and it'd help to know where you're coming from so people's answers can be tailored to your specific needs.  Otherwise you're bound to get answers specific to other fuk sao shapes.


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## mook jong man (Sep 12, 2008)

If the shape of your fook sau is like mine , wrist bent with the hand relaxed looking like a swan or a cranes head and the arm in the optimum angle then you can use these tips.

make sure your wrist is on the centerline , even if you think it is check again , wrist on centerline is crucial.
maintain contact with his wrist , control his wrist and you control his whole arm , lose contact with his wrist you will get hit
as a general rule keep your tan sau high and your fook sau low , if your fook sau goes too high it is easier to hit through because you have less leverage and the distance you have to re-direct is increased
maintain slight forward force / elbow force but still keep the arm relaxed , people that i have met with great fook sau's all of them always felt like it was almost a dead weight.
keep your fingers pointed towards his centerline , in the up part of the cycle they are pointing at his chest, in the down part of the cycle you haven't changed the position of your wrist and the fingers are now pointing down , this aids in greater control and almost locks his wrist to your wrist.
when the strike comes in re-direct downwards with a TOR SAU ( the fingers flick upwards and you cut down from the elbow , using the edge and heel of the hand to direct his strike downwards.
You have to practice against a lot of strikes before you get the wrist positioning down properly . The best way to practice it is to isolate the movement and train with one arm at a time . You put your fook sau on and your partner puts his tan sau on and you get your partner to try and strike through with fast and hard palm strikes or punches .
 Play around with your wrist positioning , start off slightly off center so you can tell what that feels like , and then make incremental movements into the centerline after your partner does a strike , he should be giving you feed back and telling you when it is getting harder for him strike through so that you know when you are on the right track .
Eventually when your wrist is on the right spot he will not be able to strike through at all. The reason for starting with wrist off the centerline is that sometimes the body has to learn what the wrong way is so that it can learn what the right way feeels like
Don't forget that out of tan , fook and bong , fook sau is the hardest one to master.
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## martyg (Sep 12, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> If the shape of your fook sau is like mine ,



You might want to describe it more or post a picture somewhere.  What you described is pretty generic.



> wrist bent with the hand relaxed looking like a swan or a cranes head



Wrist bent to where?  Everyone's wrist bends in fuk sao.



> and the arm in the optimum angle



Optimum angle means what?  And to who?  Isn't that a bit subjective of a description?  What if his family teaches a different position as "optimum"?  Might it not be better (and less "exclusive") to state "arm at x angle"?


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## skinters (Sep 12, 2008)

seeker

try to not get caught up in to many complex answers .

keep your fooksau relaxed.

dont worry about this shape or that shape,a fooksau is a fooksau.

ask you partner to come forwards slowly,so you can get a better feel for it,then up the pace when your happy.

above all try to look at it as no big deal,it will take pressure off .

you might be focusing on it to much, wich is making you tense and slow to respond.


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 12, 2008)

Remember that there are various ways of doing chi sao and without looking at you or knowing what you have been taught it is hard to help

Mook Jong Man was spot on yet again. The wrist is the most important part of the fook sao. The elbow does not have to be in the centre line (in Kamon our elbow is at the edge of our body), although elbow in will have a tronger structire it is less mobile

You also may not be dealing with the energy of the punch right. You should disperse the attack coming in as opposed to trying to 'block it'

And are you sure that your opponents are maintaining stick when they hit you? ie breaking stic just to get the punch in? Because if they are, just hit them back!


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## geezer (Sep 12, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Remember that there are various ways of doing chi sao and without looking at you or knowing what you have been taught it is hard to help...
> 
> Mook Jong Man was spot on yet again. The wrist is the most important part of the fook sao. The elbow does not have to be in the centre line (in Kamon our elbow is at the edge of our body)...


 
There are _indeed_ many ways to employ fook sau in chi-sau...so it's tough to help you without crossing bridges!  I was once taught to really pull the elbow in toward center. More recently, another excellent practitioner has shown me the-level punch by straightening my hand and sinking my fook into a jum-sau. This is the classic Chi-dan movement. Later, another sifu showed me how to just ride and deflect the punch, letting it bend your arm upward. This was a much softer response than I'd seen before. And, hey, if it works, who am I to object. Good luck in solving your problem.


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## geezer (Sep 12, 2008)

geezer said:


> ... another excellent practitioner has shown me the-level punch by straightening my hand and sinking my fook into a jum-sau. quote]
> 
> *Dang!* _What the heck does any of that mean???_ I got called away from my computer just as I hit submit. Now It's too late to re-edit, so please let me clarify. I was trying to say that the first way I learned to dissolve a mid-level punch in chi-sau with my fook sau was by converting the it into a strongly sinking gum sau. Later, another sifu corrected the movement to make it much smaller, with more forward pressure. But, I was still desperately (and unecessarily) trying to force my elbow in towards centerline. Now, more recently, I've learned how to just let the fook sau flex upward and ride the incoming punch. This dissolves the punch very nicely and absorbs the force of a sharp blow without jolting your stance. Depending on the energy you receive, each of these different variations can work well. But if you mis-apply your energy, anything you do can backfire.


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## mook jong man (Sep 12, 2008)

The optimum angle or the ultimate angle varies from person to person , but is about where the elbow is approximately two fists distance from the body , in theory it is the best angle for defence and attack .


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## Seeker (Sep 15, 2008)

Thanks Mook Jong and everyone.

I had misunderstood the idea of keeping the elbow center which put my fook in an awkward posistion which made relaxing the arm impossible and me unable to sense and respond.

I kind of might have it sorted out with having my wife try and push past my fook. She's not trained in any MA, so you get something different everytime. 

As always, a lot of great tips on this forum.


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## mook jong man (Sep 16, 2008)

Wives can get through any fook sau mate , they use the secret nagging attack which causes excruciating pain to the opponents ears .


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## skinters (Sep 16, 2008)

teach you wife how chisao and do an hour everyday ...ok to much close contact with they wife might be a worry to some ,but women dont suffer with the ego as much as men ,and in the beggining the chisao i did with the wife made a lot of difference to my training,and was funny on times . its one of the few times you can slap the wife and get away with it LMFAO


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## naneek (Sep 21, 2008)

i also have the same problems with my fuk sao, i am a very big guy and find it difficult to keep my elbows in, all the advice that is posted here will also be a great help to me so thanks for asking the question seeker, and thanks for the answers to everyone else!


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## graychuan (Sep 24, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> If the shape of your fook sau is like mine , wrist bent with the hand relaxed looking like a swan or a cranes head and the arm in the optimum angle then you can use these tips.
> 
> keep your fingers pointed towards his centerline , in the up part of the cycle they are pointing at his chest, in the down part of the cycle you haven't changed the position of your wrist and the fingers are now pointing down , this aids in greater control and almost locks his wrist to your wrist.


We do the same thing here. Good description.




mook jong man said:


> when the strike comes in re-direct downwards with a *TOR SAU ( the fingers flick upwards and you cut down from the elbow , using the edge and heel of the hand to direct his strike downwards*.


We actually level off the Fook and dont change the position of the fingers so that we take the inside line on that low gate with the ulna bone. At this point if the partner tries to strike up from that outside line we roll from Fook up to a Bong. We will 'soften' the angle on the wrist of the Fook formation but we don't point the fingers up. We call this a Fook-Sao switch. You can see Sifu Rahim doing this with Franc at about 4:16 in this video. He also adds a Kao-Sao grab at the end of the switch a few times. We never lose contact with the wrist on this transition. Other than this difference we are both pretty much on the same page.




mook jong man said:


> You have to practice against a lot of strikes before you get the wrist positioning down properly . *The best way to practice it is to isolate the movement and train with one arm at a time* . You put your fook sau on and your partner puts his tan sau on and you get your partner to try and strike through with fast and hard palm strikes or punches .


Dan Chi Sao(single sticky hands) perhaps? You are doing some serious training, Mook. AND you have a very vivid idea of the concepts. Keep these posts comming, mane!


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## mook jong man (Sep 24, 2008)

Actually Graychuan i was thinking of just isolating that movement from tan sao to strike. 
But you have made a valid point he probably should go back to doing single sticking hands for a while until he fixes his positioning problems , as well we all should from time to time .


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## iwingchun (Nov 20, 2008)

Well, 

i will tell you that when your fook sau is ahead, your fingers must look at your knee, also i found a siu lim tao's http://www.wing-chun.ws/index.php?o...ng-chun-siu-lim-tao-william-cheung-&Itemid=58 demonstration from William Cheung.Take a look!


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 21, 2008)

Oh no, a Cheung fan...


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 6, 2008)

Some common ways I use fook sau when training?

I don't try an block with fok Sau I usually try to intercept with pak sau or Wu Sau then turn into fok sau in one motion. From the very second my hands go fok I hook the forearm or wrist of opponent outward away from my body. Then I shift my center line by turning my body or pivoting while striking with the other hand at same time. So in other words I intercept and fok while striking.

Also you can use fok sau as entry technique. Fok the leading guard by pulling it down with your crane hand or dragging it outward.

Fook is good for re-directing energy or turning the force away from the body. Don't forget to pivot. Remember those angles!

But This works for me. You maybe talking about something totally different. I hope it helps?


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