# Flashing Wings and Gathering Clouds



## Ceicei (Nov 15, 2003)

The two techniques, "Flashing Wings" and "Gathering Clouds", share many similarities and some differences in motions.  

Besides the obvious, I'm wondering about the more subtle differences with the movements.  I've also heard it said the pressure points/nerve strikes differ between them, but I do not see how? 

Would anyone care to elaborate?

- Ceicei


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## WhiteTiger (Nov 16, 2003)

Can you post a description of Gathering Clouds for us Tracy's guys.


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## Hollywood1340 (Nov 16, 2003)

From www.kenponet.com


1. An attacker at 12 o'clock in a left fighting stance throws a right reverse punch. 

2. Step your left foot to 10:30 into a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a left inward parry to the outside of your attacker's right arm and a right inward vertical middle knuckle rake to your attacker's right ribs. 

3. Immediately execute a right outward handsword to your attacker's lower right ribs. 

4. Step your right foot to 1:30 into a right neutral bow to buckle your attacker's right knee with your right knee as you execute a right inward elbow to your attacker's right ribs. (Your left hand is now bracing against your attacker's right elbow.) 

5. Execute a right front scoop kick to your attacker's groin as you execute a right two-finger eye hook to your attacker's left eye. 

6. Plant your right scoop kick back to 7:30 into a left neutral bow facing 1:30. 

7. Cross out.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 16, 2003)

Talking about the wrong tech. oops!


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 16, 2003)

I guess you could work the eye gouge after you bent the guy over with the elbow on Flashing wings. The Illiad Crest is just waiting to get beat on with both techs too, I suppose.


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## WhiteTiger (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks Hollywood,

We call it Parting the Waves.


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## Michael Billings (Nov 16, 2003)

You beat me to it ... I was going to say "Parting the Waves", and note that the "parting" portion of the technique was in the extension, which I did not learn until I started EPAK.

-Michael


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## Doc (Nov 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> *From www.kenponet.com
> 
> 
> ...



Wow! Themes aside, as I understand what was written, that first defensive move will get you killed for sure. Hope nobody is actually trying to do that on the street.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Wow! Themes aside, as I understand what was writen, that first defensive move will get you killed for sure. *


Amen to that.


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## MisterMike (Nov 17, 2003)

Why not? They're still talking "Ideal Phase" aren't they?


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## M F (Nov 17, 2003)

> Wow! Themes aside, as I understand what was written, that first defensive move will get you killed for sure. Hope nobody is actually trying to do that on the street.



Doc,
What exactly about this part will get you killed in the street?  It seems to me that step to 10:30 gets you offline of the incoming punch, which I think is a pretty good idea.  Maybe you could explain what you have your students do in this technique.  Thanks.


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## Kenpomachine (Nov 17, 2003)

> What exactly about this part will get you killed in the street?



You're steping into the punch. It would be different if it wasn't a reverse punch... At least, that's how I see it, because I haven't been taught this technique.


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## WhiteTiger (Nov 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Wow! Themes aside, as I understand what was written, that first defensive move will get you killed for sure. Hope nobody is actually trying to do that on the street. *



Only about 35% of all Kenpo techniques start with this movement.  I don't know how you can say this without invalidating the entire system.

Unless your just stirring things up to see what comes to the surface.


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## Shiatsu (Nov 17, 2003)

I believe what he is saying is that the block and strike combonation will get you killed.  As someone who works in apprehending people from time to time, including prisoners in Iraq, I will say this.

The mid knuckle strike is the main problem.  I'm sorry but I am 5'7 and 190, I would not in my wildest dreams attempt that strike on a much larger, angry opponent moving at a full speed attack that most people here have never seen the other side of.  Motions are great, but only if you can apply them when it counts.  

Otherwise you are carrying a locker on your back into a fight with 200+ techniques, none of which you have ever used in a truthful combat situation.

It is kind of like the schools that practice two hand pushes from a stand still position.  Hell no, have the attacker get in a football stance and truly attack the person.  You will find out if you have good basics and balance or not.

As I always say  " There is a difference between being a marksman on a gun range, and a marksman when you are getting shot at".  Just something to think about.:asian:


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## Blindside (Nov 17, 2003)

I usually use the inward parry/inward center-knuckle strike as a gunting strike to the arm.  Count me amoung those who don't like the middle knuckle strike to the body.

Lamont


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## MisterMike (Nov 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> *I usually use the inward parry/inward center-knuckle strike as a gunting strike to the arm.  Count me amoung those who don't like the middle knuckle strike to the body.
> 
> Lamont *



The middle knuckle strikes are in quite a few places in Kenpo.

Inverted to the eye in Obscure Claws, vertically thrusted to the solar plexus in Parting Wings, in uppercut fashion in Raking Mace. I think it is a nice little modification to the normal fist.


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## Michael Billings (Nov 17, 2003)

I use the inverted middle-knuckle to the sternum in Obscure Claws, we attacked the eyes with the "Claws".  

The vertical middle-knuckle stike is nice for "Pin-Pointing," as anyone can testify.  I have seen, oh, maybe 4-6 versions of Parting the Waves/Gathering Clouds, and I think a lot of Kenpoist are doing some version of a punch now, with more stopping power, then letting it arc through to rebound off your own waist to the next strike.  

I have seen handswords and heel palms, horizontal, vertical and uppercut punches all used with the parry.  Then there are the famous "Hot Hands" from the West LA school guys.  Good for practice as they really elicit a reaction, without breaking or rupturing any organs. 

I personally make sure my head is the 1st thing moved with my parry, and I tend to throw a low right hook, contingent on range and target availability.  This is not my "Ideal", but is the way I often end up executing it against a bigger opponent.

-Michael

_(edited since I cannot tell my right from my left)_


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## MisterMike (Nov 17, 2003)

Gathering Clouds was never really one of my favorites. As it is written above, I wouldn't really run it that way either. If you step to 10:30 and parry and strike, you're kind of "Straddling the paddle." 

Also, if the middle knuckle does have an effect, most likeley he's going to hod where it hurts and cover those ribs, nullifying that handsword in the next step. (Of course there are other targets)

But I just always thought it was kind of an awkward tech anyways.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 17, 2003)

I think this is on of those techs that could end up happening. Obviously if you are holding a pen or somthing in your right hand and your hand is down instead of up, and then suddenly you are attacked. Suddenly the ribs are your only target. It could happen; so, I don't see a problem practicing varrying methods of getting into the fight from this position. However to call a middle knuckle rake ideal over, say, an open handed slap is silly. My gripe with this tech is that it assumes to much injury on the first counter strike.


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## M F (Nov 18, 2003)

> I think a lot of Kenpoist are doing some version of a punch now, with more stopping power, then letting it arc through to rebound off your own waist to the next strike.



I do a vertical punch with a little hook on the end to get the handsword (or hammer) going.  Doc said, "that first defensive move will get you killed for sure."  As I see it the first defensive move is the step to 10:30 with the parry.  I thought of the middle knuckle rake as the first offensive move.  I have used this footwork and parry in sparring frequently, and in actual confrontations more than once.  I used a similar action long before becoming involved in Kenpo, and it has worked for me without getting me killed.


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## Michael Billings (Nov 18, 2003)

I have used it also and survived, but I caught the guy stepping in with his right, rather than a true Reverse Punch, which is what the Ideal Phase of the technique calls for.  It definitly "stopped" his completing his step through.  The punch doubled him over checking height, and the parry-punch (left-right) checked width (although height being checked certainly did that also.)  I think I probably hit either his his Liver or a little above (Gall Bladder), and only caught a floating rib if any.  But his elbows were definitly not "down" until his right folded into his right front side where I struck.

(_Inserted with edit_)
Of note was the stance I used, now that I think about it.  There was no "Straddling the Paddle" as I did my usual modified close kneel.  Having had knee surgery, I tend to keep the rear leg's knee pointed more toward 12:00, but do not drop down enough to call it a true close kneel.  It is more of a modified Neutral Bow than anything else, and in that technique, or Flashing Wing, it sets up some great clockwise rotation for the second strike
(_End inserted edit_)

My head was the 1st thing that moved and my step was to 9:30 or 10:00 ... not 10:30, but I was in a hurry.  His being bent over precluded the handsword, but he was set up nicely for a Flashing Wing graft, even though nothing else was necessary.

I honestly did not think about the technique itself, and want more info about why Doc thinks it will get me killed?  (No sarcasm intended.)

-Michael


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Nov 18, 2003)

Technique descriptions from:  www.nackordkarate.com
These links contain pictures which some may find helpful.  This is not how I do the techniques, but I thought it might be somewhat helpful for comparison.
Right Click and choose open in a new window.
Gathering Clouds 
Flashing Wings 



I, as many others have stated, also use more of a linear to hook type of punch as opposed to the middle knuckle rake.  However, I don't do the parry and rake simultaneously, instead I treat it more like a slipping manuever where I try and slip to the outside of the punch and parry with my left hand.  The punch or rake comes about a quarter beat after the slip and parry, not at the same time.  My main concern with doing these movements simultaneously is that you never really know if your attackers punch is going to be a straight, roundhouse, or hook punch.  If you assume and/or expect one or the other you will likely get creamed, this is why I slip and parry before I punch.

Also the way we perform flashing wings in the AKKI is a little different.  We don't swing the elbow through, doing so requires you to PULL the elbow shot a little in order to carry through to the outward, rather we solidify the elbow shot which can then dig quite a bit and move directly to a controlled maintenance position.  So after the elbow we use the right hand to come over and check down (i.e. Hammer down) while the left circles up and over hitting a couple of different targets along the way until it checks the opp's right arm.  We then fire a left upward palm heel to the opp's face and hook the jaw with our right hand.  These movements are accomplished in about the same amount of time that it takes to do the inward rake and outward chop from gathering clouds (just to give a time frame).

This method works well because it provides a secondary course of action when performing Gathering clouds (or any technique that has the possibility of the opponent covering low).  In otherwords, should your opponent begin to cover low after the first strike or two then it requires almost no change to flow right into (AKKI) Flashing Wing which allows us to easily remove the obstruction, check the opponent, as well as provide easy entry to a controlled maintenance position that permits a number of possible moves (for instance leaping crane).

I believe that Chapel's statement about gathering clouds had to do with the simultaneous parry and rake (in which case I agree), however, I think it was a bit *self-righteous* to spout the ineffectiveness of a particular movement without offering any sort of explanation as to why such a movement is bad.


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## dcence (Nov 18, 2003)

There are a couple of interesting things when you look at Gathering and Flashing together.

(1)   Look at what the right hand is doing in both techniques.  Same thing, basically.  In Flashing, you do inward elbow, outward handsword, inward palm heel.  In Gathering you do inward middle knuckle, outward handsword, inward elbow.  The right hand is doing the same pattern (inward, outward, inward) in both techniques.  The difference is the use of upper and lower case in the first and third strike.  One is really just opposite (or reverse depending on how you look at it) of the other.

(2)  You can blend the two techniques.  After the inward elbow in Gathering, insert the right outward, left inward, right inward sequence of Flashing to get to the eye hook.

(3)  If they step through, on Gathering, I often step behind their right leg with the inward elbow, instead of in front, then do the eye hook-scoop kick from behind.  I guess I just am not that hip on buckling shin to shin.

(4)  If you have a problem with that middle knuckle strike causing damage you aren't doing it right, IMO.  It should be a vertical straight punch from the hip moving in a linear way directly to the ribs that penetrates and then grafts into a hooking method of execution.  I tell my students to think of taking a chunk out of the guys' side with that strike.  I have seen too many do this strike with a wide swing arc.  It should fire straight forward linearly then after contact graft into a circular move to blow through the right ribcag.

(5)  I do it like Kenpo Yahoo as far as the timing with the parry and strike, but the space between the parrry and the strike almost imperceptible.  Step to neutral and parry, then as soon as the punch passes (which is pretty much immediately), rotate into the middle knuckle strike.

I like to step more to 11:00 or 11:30 on the very first move; just enough to slip the punch.

(6) In Gathering, with the right outward handsword do a left outward palm heel claw to the face.  I did this once and caught the guy right in the nose with a little too much for a technique line (back when I didn't have much control...[Right, as if I have some now]).

Just random thoughts.

Derek


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## Michael Billings (Nov 19, 2003)

Great post ... except for the last sentence:  Darn man, just had to be judgmental and critical?  I personally take offense, as it was just plain rude.  Who knows why he posted, and has not posted more.  Of note is that other's agreed with him.

I think, like maybe he does not live on this Board?  Regardless of this, great post on the AKKI technique.  You are including the Black Belt Extension with your description, sorta kinda.  I do like the solid elbow, I do the same often, then move through.

See here for the Black Belt Extensions (EPAK) from my web page:

*Blue Extensions: ref. Flashing Wing (#3) *

Respectfully,
-Michael


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Nov 19, 2003)

Sorry I've just never been to keen on the idea of people walking up and saying,"That's wrong" then walking off without any explanation.  If I were to walk up to one of your students and say,"why the hell are you doing that?  That's just stupid."  Is that not an equivocal statement to "If you do that you'll get killed on the street?"  Sure it may not sound as bad, but equivocal none the less.  

If I don't offer any explanation and just leave others to speculate as to why I said something, then I have done nothing but try to make someone else feel inferior while touting my knowledge, because after all I was the one who noticed they were doing something wrong.  This is almost the exact definition of self-righteous which is why I decided to use this particular word.  

If I have a problem with something, or disagree with something I try to back up my statements with specifics in order to carry on a conversation, which is what I thought forums were for.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Sorry I've just never been to keen on the idea of people walking up and saying,"That's wrong" then walking off without any explanation.  If I were to walk up to one of your students and say,"why the hell are you doing that?  That's just stupid."  Is that not an equivocal statement to "If you do that you'll get killed on the street?"  Sure it may not sound as bad, but equivocal none the less.
> 
> If I don't offer any explanation and just leave others to speculate as to why I said something, then I have done nothing but try to make someone else feel inferior while touting my knowledge, because after all I was the one who noticed they were doing something wrong.  This is almost the exact definition of self-righteous which is why I decided to use this particular word.
> ...


I'm sure it was done to spark conversation. That is what this forum is about.


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## Doc (Nov 20, 2003)

Excuse me for having a job that I have to attend to ocassionally, preventing me from follow up posts to suit someone elses idea of expediency.  

I think usually I have attempted to share as much as this medium can handle. So much so that some have complained I post too much and some things I write are ignored. Now I give my opinion briefly to see if anyone is interested in another perspective, and I'm branded "self righteous." 

Some of my time is spent answering Private Mesages and personal e-mail in depth as well. So for those who have a problem, please excuse my lack of expedient posting. Fortunately there are other sources where these questions may be answered for different perspectives should I be "too slow."

Help him out Mr. Billings I'm feeling a little "self righteous" right now.


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## Doc (Nov 20, 2003)

Now that is off my chest, my problem with the technique description(s) is the attack is defined as a "reverse punch." My understanding of the term is that the punching hand enjoys a reverse relationship with the foot on that side, meaning it is to the rear. If that is the case, width control  will be virtually impossible because of the position of the hip, and make one susceptable to a crossing left hand.

As far as the initial strike to the rib cage, I agree with Dcence. The rest of the technique is somewhat different however.

I'm going back to work now so if you don't get a post from me in 5 minutes, its because I have some bills to pay.


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## kenpo3631 (Nov 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *You're steping into the punch. It would be different if it wasn't a reverse punch... At least, that's how I see it, because I haven't been taught this technique. *



Absolutely. Try it with your opponent throwing a right step through punch


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## kenpo3631 (Nov 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *I believe what he is saying is that the block and strike combonation will get you killed.  As someone who works in apprehending people from time to time, including prisoners in Iraq, I will say this.
> 
> The mid knuckle strike is the main problem.  I'm sorry but I am 5'7 and 190, I would not in my wildest dreams attempt that strike on a much larger, angry opponent moving at a full speed attack that most people here have never seen the other side of.  Motions are great, but only if you can apply them when it counts.
> ...



The middle knuckle strike is a "minor move" IMO. You are "cocking" your hand in preparation for the chop to the rib cage. The thinking would be if your going to bring your right hand across so you can chop you might as well take something out in the process, hence the middle knuckle rake.


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## kenpo3631 (Nov 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *Gathering Clouds was never really one of my favorites. As it is written above, I wouldn't really run it that way either. If you step to 10:30 and parry and strike, you're kind of "Straddling the paddle."
> 
> Also, if the middle knuckle does have an effect, most likeley he's going to hod where it hurts and cover those ribs, nullifying that handsword in the next step. (Of course there are other targets)
> ...



That's why this is in the "Leaping Crane" family grouping. Just look at the different options. Like a buffet table awaiting the onslaught...


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## MisterMike (Nov 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *That's why this is in the "Leaping Crane" family grouping. Just look at the different options. Like a buffet table awaiting the onslaught... *



Haha..yes, I agree. And let's not forget Circling the Horizon


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## dcence (Nov 20, 2003)

> The middle knuckle strike is a "minor move" IMO. You are "cocking" your hand in preparation for the chop to the rib cage. The thinking would be if your going to bring your right hand across so you can chop you might as well take something out in the process, hence the middle knuckle rake.



Yes, but be aware or (beware) that minor move can stop the guy dead in his tracks if done correctly.  Think of  taking a chunk out  of the attacker's ribcage.  It is truly wicked done this way.  The key is having a forward projecting linear strike that grafts into a hook  after penetration instead of the loopy raking strike a lot of folks do.


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## dcence (Nov 20, 2003)

I didn't  notice the 'reverse' punch issue.  If it is a reverse punch, the angle of incidence is practically non-existent for the  middle knuckle punch.  I would instead alter the strike to the inside of the guys upper arm (or if the guy has extra long arms and you  are concerned with reach).  It is a very sensitive place between the biceps and triceps.

Gathering is a good technique for a lead right hand punch such as a jab or backfist.

Let me pass something past you guys for comment  if you care.  I often change the timing a little and instead of parrying first, the sequence is more like this, slipping the punch moore than parrying it;

1.  Step into wide kneel, slip punch with middleknuckle  strike (left hand up checking) 
2.  Left hand checks outside of right arm
3.  Pivot back to neutral with the right outward handsword.

Left hand is up in case the punch is a roundhouse instead of straight.

It does require you to be good at slipping punches which is sometimes a lost art within the art.

Derek Ence


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## kenpo3631 (Nov 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dcence _
> *Yes, but be aware or (beware) that minor move can stop the guy dead in his tracks if done correctly.  Think of  taking a chunk out  of the attacker's ribcage.  It is truly wicked done this way.  The key is having a forward projecting linear strike that grafts into a hook  after penetration instead of the loopy raking strike a lot of folks do. *



Agreed, however the point of my comment was that the middle knuckle rake is just that, a "minor" setting up for a "major" move. It is up to the defender if he/she want to deliver it as hard or as passive as they want. Heck you could "delete" the middle knuckle all together if you wanted to and just draw your hand across your body as you stepped with the left hand parry (why someone would do this I don't know) but you can do it just the same.

That reminds me...Mr. Parker used to kill (hit really hard) with his minor moves, he'd rattle you with a finger whip and it felt like you got hit with a Mac truck


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## dcence (Nov 20, 2003)

> Agreed, however the point of my comment was that the middle knuckle rake is just that, a "minor" setting up for a "major" move. It is up to the defender if he/she want to deliver it as hard or as passive as they want. Heck you could "delete" the middle knuckle all together if you wanted to and just draw your hand across your body as you stepped with the left hand parry (why someone would do this I don't know) but you can do it just the same.



I don't disagree, but it sort of begs the question of whether a minor move ceases to be minor when it causes major damage.  What exactly is the difference between a major and minor move?

To me it is a matter of emphasis.  That  middle knuckle strike can be as major as the handsword following it, or even more so.  In fact, I would  rather get hit with  the handsword than the  middle knuckle done as a major.

Certainly, all moves shouldn't be made major, otherwise major-minor becomes a distinction without difference.  And if everything is done as a major move, it ruins fluidity and timing.

My point is you dictate whether a move is major or minor, not the technique.  For example I have been hit and have hit with the little over head finger whip in Finger Set harder than with a good solid punch.  Your emphasis makes something major or minor.  Make the technique serve you, not you the technique.

My instructor has said, "you are starting to do Kenpo right, when your checks actually hurt."


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## dcence (Nov 20, 2003)

> Like a buffet table awaiting the onslaught



Reminds me of the  time Mr. C., Mr. Parker and a few of us went to a buffet in Vegas after a  seminar.  And I thought I could eat....  LOL.  Makes me sad to think  about it -- it was only a month or two before Mr. Parker passed away.


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