# The small, Medium and large circles



## futsaowingchun (Apr 18, 2016)

.a.short demo on how I approach using small, Medium and large circles in my wing chun...


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## geezer (Apr 19, 2016)

Haven't seen you posting in a while, _Futsao_. Where ya' been?

One thing I notice in your video is that you talk a lot about moving your opponent's arm out of the way. This is a little different emphasis than my VT/WC. Our emphasis seems to be more on agreeing with, and _using_ our opponent's force. _Huen sau_ comes into play to slip around a strong arm rather than moving it.

On the other hand, there are times when you need to use force to redirect a powerful technique, as in the Guat-sau and Lau-sau sequence from the WT SNT form which may be used to sweep aside and then scoop a front thrusting kick. That would be a "big circle" in your terminology. See 1:40-43 and again at 1:50-53 in the clip below:






Here are some of Alex Richter's WT students demonstrating this against a round kick. Personally I find this more useful against a thrusting kick or a push-kick, but either way you get the idea: big circle against heavier force.


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## Phobius (Apr 20, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> .a.short demo on how I approach using small, Medium and large circles in my wing chun..



As always I like your way of putting up so many theories and aspects of training on YouTube. Therefore it feels so bad to not be agreeing with them and speak up about it.

My worries on this video of yours is for the medium circle on his punching arm (2:22) you push his hand/arm. In doing so you actually give him force to circle around you in same way and punch you while you are doing medium circle to push his arm. The reason it seems to work is because he stops moving his arm when you stop doing the circle.

Try and train this circle while he attempts to come around and do a circular punch on the side at the moment when you start pushing his hand in a circle. Such an attempt would in my view land with a punch to the face instantly. Do you know anything in regards to above demonstration that would prevent such a thing? Especially given that your arm just became weak due to the circular movement and will be unable to circle back upwards to deflect the punch.


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## LFJ (Apr 20, 2016)

That "Lau Gerk" technique incredibly underestimates the speed and power of a good kicker.  

It's walking right into a heavy knockout for sure!


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## Phobius (Apr 20, 2016)

LFJ said:


> That "Lau Gerk" technique incredibly underestimates the speed and power of a good kicker.
> 
> It's walking right into a heavy knockout for sure!



There is a possibility that it is just practise of technique without footwork. That this is not how it is actually applied in realistic manner. Seems to me like a practise video.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 20, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> .a.short demo on how I approach using small, Medium and large circles in my wing chun...


Not a Chunner, but it seem to me, you could use big circles all the time, if you direct them at your opponent.


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## LFJ (Apr 20, 2016)

Phobius said:


> There is a possibility that it is just practise of technique without footwork. That this is not how it is actually applied in realistic manner. Seems to me like a practise video.



I don't think so. There was footwork. It's called a kick defense and presented as a real application.


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## geezer (Apr 20, 2016)

LFJ said:


> That "Lau Gerk" technique incredibly underestimates the speed and power of a good kicker.
> 
> It's walking right into a heavy knockout for sure!



Yeah. An older friend of mine, who's a NVTO VT sifu was a top TKD guy and kickboxer back in the '70's, says the same thing. He feel that a lot of WC today underestimates what a really good kicker can do.

As for the gwat-sau and lau-sau to deal with a kick... well I prefer legs to deal with legs whenever possible. Still, in my experience, the gwat-lau-throw sequence can work very well against mid-high level thrusting kick if you close explosively.

The trick is side-step and close inside _fast_ ...using the strategy of side to center, or _yau pin, yap ching. _When your opponent tries to slip a push-kick right under your man-sau, you convert it into a "wiping" gwat-sau to deflect his kick and turn his body aside giving you a very favorable position to attack his center.


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## geezer (Apr 20, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Not a Chunner, but it seem to me, you could use big circles all the time, if you direct them at your opponent.



Big circles are used effectively by many styles. WC by contrast, favors straight line attacks and a minimum of movement. In other words, the smallest movement possible to get the job done. 

So we'd use big circles rarely, and even then, using the shortest arc possible.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 20, 2016)

Phobius said:


> As always I like your way of putting up so many theories and aspects of training on YouTube. Therefore it feels so bad to not be agreeing with them and speak up about it.
> 
> My worries on this video of yours is for the medium circle on his punching arm (2:22) you push his hand/arm. In doing so you actually give him force to circle around you in same way and punch you while you are doing medium circle to push his arm. The reason it seems to work is because he stops moving his arm when you stop doing the circle.
> 
> Try and train this circle while he attempts to come around and do a circular punch on the side at the moment when you start pushing his hand in a circle. Such an attempt would in my view land with a punch to the face instantly. Do you know anything in regards to above demonstration that would prevent such a thing? Especially given that your arm just became weak due to the circular movement and will be unable to circle back upwards to deflect the punch.


You observation is correct about 2:22. The next step would be a punch to the head in the form of a hook.

I think it's important when practicing and exploring techniques, that you simulate how to do the technique against your style and how to do the technique against someone who is in a common fighting stance.  In the video the "demo guy" is in that well known Wing Chun stance. I come from a circular system and the first thing that I can tell you is that we wouldn't use that circular redirection in that manner. 

Circular motions are applied to the side of the arm where resistance is weakest and not the top and bottom were resistance is the strongest. 

One of the weaknesses or mistakes that many Wing Chun practitioners have is that they forget about stuff that comes from the outside and underneath. 

The forearm circle technique that he is talking about in the demo would work better if you want to keep your opponent's arm pinned down allowing you to punch over his arm.  To make it work he will need to start the circle on the outside of his opponents hand pushing inward. When the opponent resists to the side ways push, continue with the circle and push down on the arm and stick.  At this point his guard should be low enough for you to strike his face or biceps. Sticking to his hand will prevent that arm from being able to strike above your harm.

We do this drill all the time and as long as your arm is sticking his arm will be totally useless for punching.

To be honest if he does that same move  in 2.22 to someone that is good with Tai Chi applications.  They will have an opportunity to break that arm in less than a second.  That inside punch is perfect for a "play the lute" counter.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 20, 2016)

LFJ said:


> That "Lau Gerk" technique incredibly underestimates the speed and power of a good kicker.
> 
> It's walking right into a heavy knockout for sure!



The guy in the video stated it's not the best technique to use against a roundhouse.  It's one of those techniques that you do when you get caught off guard. It's where you do the technique and pray for the best.

The only problem is that most people freeze their feet when caught off guard.  Their hands may move fast but there's no guarantee that the feet would move forward. 

You'll usually see people lean back in an effort to get away from the kick, while their feet basically stays in one place.  My guess this is one of those techniques where you have to constantly train the body to move forward every time a kick is detected.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 20, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> .a.short demo on how I approach using small, Medium and large circles in my wing chun...


In your clip, you have not addressed the most common situation. When you put pressure to spin your opponent's left arm as a downward block (at 1.26), your opponent can borrow your spinning force, add his own force, spin his left arm, and hay-maker (or hook punch) at the side of your head. His hay-maker can not only hit your head but also interrupt your right punch to his chest (circle against straight line principle).

When you downward parry your opponent's leading arm, you will have 2 situations:

1. too hard to move - the bridge has been established, you can grab on his arm and pull yourself in.
2. too easy to move - the bridge contact has fail. When this happen, you have to take advantage on his moving path.

IMO, it will be much safer that whenever you use a "clockwise downward parry", you should always followed by a "counter-clockwise wrap" so you can interrupt your opponent's hay-maker that coming toward your head.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 20, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> .a.short demo on how I approach using small, Medium and large circles in my wing chun...


Forgot to say. Thanks for the video.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 20, 2016)

geezer said:


> Big circles are used effectively by many styles. WC by contrast, favors straight line attacks and a minimum of movement. In other words, the smallest movement possible to get the job done.
> 
> So we'd use big circles rarely, and even then, using the shortest arc possible.


But the mere act of putting your elbow on center, requires that big circle.


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## LFJ (Apr 21, 2016)

geezer said:


> As for the gwat-sau and lau-sau to deal with a kick... well I prefer legs to deal with legs whenever possible. Still, in my experience, the gwat-lau-throw sequence can work very well against mid-high level thrusting kick if you close explosively.



Yeah, I've done a fair bit of Sanda and there are many kick catches and throws that work great. 

Scooping a front kick like that, with the right timing and footwork is perhaps feasible, but not something I'd dream of doing against a fast and powerful round kick. There's a huge gap to the head left wide open, and a hand there "just in case" isn't going to be able to stop it.



JowGaWolf said:


> The guy in the video stated it's not the best technique to use against a roundhouse.  It's one of those techniques that you do when you get caught off guard. It's where you do the technique and pray for the best.



I think he was talking about standing still and using the two-arm chop block as the emergency technique. Ideally, he wants to go in with the scoop and throw. I just think it's applied against the wrong type of kick.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 21, 2016)

LFJ said:


> I think he was talking about standing still and using the two-arm chop block as the emergency technique. Ideally, he wants to go in with the scoop and throw. I just think it's applied against the wrong type of kick.


.  Same here. I'm thinking that it's the wrong technique for that type of kick.  I can see it working against a kick that is aimed to the side of the body and not the head. In cases where the opponent isn't flexible enough to kick for the head or if they have been trained not to kick much higher than the waist.

A similar technique is used here.


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## PiedmontChun (Apr 21, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Yeah, I've done a fair bit of Sanda and there are many kick catches and throws that work great.
> 
> Scooping a front kick like that, with the right timing and footwork is perhaps feasible, but not something I'd dream of doing against a fast and powerful round kick. There's a huge gap to the head left wide open, and a hand there "just in case" isn't going to be able to stop it.
> 
> ...



If I remember correctly, I learned this Lau Gerk against both roundhouse and front thrust kick, and it was taught very early, before even learning the entire SNT. It do think it is a very hit or miss technique. Misjudge the height of the kick and you are eating it, midjudge the timing and you are walking right into it. A properly executed Lau Gerk does deflect and control the kick at its weakest point though, since a roundhouse kick just doesn't have nearly the same power close to the kicker's body, at say, the knee or hamstring. The gwat to tan hand moves forward as it moves up, and the angle is very effective at uprooting the attacker. Its just.... not easy to do it right.

Geezer makes an excellent point about using legs to deal with kicks versus the arms / hands, but that is obviously more advanced WT curriculum. Looking back, I think learning Lau Gerk the way the video shows mostly importantly taught the principle of exploding in when possible and closing the gap to stifle an attacker, and by practicing it (albeit pretty 'simulated' as to not literally throw your partner) helped reinforce that timing.


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## LFJ (Apr 21, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I can see it working against a kick that is aimed to the side of the body and not the head. In cases where the opponent isn't flexible enough to kick for the head or if they have been trained not to kick much higher than the waist.



Eh, but how do I know how flexible an opponent is or know their full training history? 

Plus the height of round kicks can be very deceptive and too fast to judge.

I personally would forgo this application against any round kick. Just too risky.


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 21, 2016)

geezer said:


> Haven't seen you posting in a while, _Futsao_. Where ya' been?
> 
> One thing I notice in your video is that you talk a lot about moving your opponent's arm out of the way. This is a little different emphasis than my VT/WC. Our emphasis seems to be more on agreeing with, and _using_ our opponent's force. _Huen sau_ comes into play to slip around a strong arm rather than moving it.
> 
> ...




I've been busy at work which leAves little time for other things  like making videos. 

Moving the bridge is a more traditional approach in the fut sao lineage,but we also use it the same way as you do. We have a saying " if you can't go through the mountain go around it". It just depends on the situation. This video just covers the concept of the 3.circles not technique focused. From the idea you can figure out how to apply it in many applications. How you use the big circle to catch a kick is a good one. I just forgot to put it in my video.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 21, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Eh, but how do I know how flexible an opponent is or know their full training history?


 You can get a good read on a persons flexibility by the way they move and by the ease of how they move.  In a real world self-defense situation, I take a look at the pants and the shoes.  People who can do flexible kicks like to wear clothing that allows them to do those type of kicks.  The day that someone round house kicks me in the face while wearing skinny jeans is the day that I'll be truly surprised.

People who wear sagging pants are also less likely to do any flexible kicking techniques.  

Big people are the ones that harder to read with flexible kicks because their size looks like it's not possible.  We had a fat guy student that used to take Taekwondo and his kicks would throw us off because he didn't look like he could throw them fast or high.  We literally had to spar with him and ignore the body weight. But when you look at his foot movement you can see him position himself to kick his footwork was solid as well.










After you spar with a few people that kick, you'll start developing a feel for the maximum height that kick will be.




.


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## Phobius (Apr 21, 2016)

Overweight people are often very flexible. Question remains if they know own how to do those kicks or have strength to do it. But flexibility has nothing to do with weight except I personally seen more flexible people among those overweight in my country / area.


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## LFJ (Apr 21, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> In a real world self-defense situation, I take a look at the pants and the shoes.  People who can do flexible kicks like to wear clothing that allows them to do those type of kicks.  The day that someone round house kicks me in the face while wearing skinny jeans is the day that I'll be truly surprised.



The best kicker I ever met had huge horse legs, so he couldn't wear jeans anyway. He always wore heavy steel-toed boots, but his head-height kicks were still blindingly fast. And a front could switch to a round in a flash.

Hence I prefer to move my *** rather than try to be clever with a kick catch or something.



> People who wear sagging pants are also less likely to do any flexible kicking techniques.



Fortunately, that is one trend that has not caught on on this side of the world... 



> After you spar with a few people that kick, you'll start developing a feel for the maximum height that kick will be.



After sparring with them for a bit, sure. I don't think we should underestimate someone we've never seen before and know nothing about though.


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## wckf92 (Apr 23, 2016)

LFJ said:


> I just think it's applied against the wrong type of kick.



Especially the chunner guys footwork. Seems odd. He doesn't appear to have an option to back him up if was against a beast of a kicker, or if god forbid things don't go his way. Even his angle seemed odd for that technique or application.


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## KPM (Apr 23, 2016)

---I'm coming to this thread a bit late, and not sure that Phobius' comments were addressed.

_My worries on this video of yours is for the medium circle on his punching arm (2:22) you push his hand/arm. In doing so you actually give him force to circle around you in same way and punch you while you are doing medium circle to push his arm. The reason it seems to work is because he stops moving his arm when you stop doing the circle._

---This is prevented by making the circle more of a spiral.  It should be traveling in, not outward.  This way the opponent is hit as he is being deflected.

_Try and train this circle while he attempts to come around and do a circular punch on the side at the moment when you start pushing his hand in a circle. Such an attempt would in my view land with a punch to the face instantly._

---This is why you go in as you circle...spiral.  You are hitting him, which slows his own strike down a bit.  And you should always have your backup hand in place to deal with a possible punch.  Cover high line and low line at the same time.

---Mike's video did help me to realize one thing though!   One of the differences I see between Wing Chun and Weng Chun is which circle is used more often.   In general, Wing Chun uses the small circle quite a bit.   In general, Weng Chun seems to put more emphasis on the medium circle.  At first this seems contradictory because Weng Chun likes to work in pretty close, we try not to stay at arm's length.  But what makes the medium circle work is the spiraling action I mentioned.  Weng Chun uses the idea of "Yi Do Sau."  This means doing blocks/parries with the portion of the arm from the mid-forearm to the elbow.  We do not use the wrist area and palm to block/parry nearly as much as Wing Chun.  Hence there aren't as many Huen Sau's (which primarily use the small circle), and there are no Pak Sau's!   By using the proximal part of the  forearm as the blocking surface and this spiraling action with the circle....the technique has more forward pressure and goes into the opponent and converts quickly and naturally to a strike.  Hope that makes sense!


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 24, 2016)

Phobius said:


> As always I like your way of putting up so many theories and aspects of training on YouTube. Therefore it feels so bad to not be agreeing with them and speak up about it.
> 
> My worries on this video of yours is for the medium circle on his punching arm (2:22) you push his hand/arm. In doing so you actually give him force to circle around you in same way and punch you while you are doing medium circle to push his arm. The reason it seems to work is because he stops moving his arm when you stop doing the circle.
> 
> Try and train this circle while he attempts to come around and do a circular punch on the side at the moment when you start pushing his hand in a circle. Such an attempt would in my view land with a punch to the face instantly. Do you know anything in regards to above demonstration that would prevent such a thing? Especially given that your arm just became weak due to the circular movement and will be unable to circle back upwards to deflect the punch.


You would apply the circle when he makes the commited move not before hand,so he can use the momentum against you.


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 24, 2016)

KPM said:


> ---I'm coming to this thread a bit late, and not sure that Phobius' comments were addressed.
> 
> _My worries on this video of yours is for the medium circle on his punching arm (2:22) you push his hand/arm. In doing so you actually give him force to circle around you in same way and punch you while you are doing medium circle to push his arm. The reason it seems to work is because he stops moving his arm when you stop doing the circle._
> 
> ...



Where did you learn Weng Chun?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 24, 2016)

KPM said:


> _My worries on this video of yours is for the medium circle on his punching arm (2:22) you push his hand/arm. In doing so you actually give him force to circle around you in same way and punch you while you are doing medium circle to push his arm. The reason it seems to work is because he stops moving his arm when you stop doing the circle._


That's my concern as well. To assume that your opponent doesn't know how to borrow your force is not realistic. I found out this the 1st time by luck. Long time ago, my opponent gave me a hard block. When he did that, since his head was open, I borrowed his force, added into my force, rotated my arm, and gave a nice hay-maker hit on the side of his head. Since then, instead of waiting for such opportunity. I always threw a punch and let my opponent over committed block to open himself up. In order to prevent my opponent from doing this to me, I always use a "counter-clockwise wrapping" followed by a "clockwise downward parry". This way I can interrupt his haymaker if needed.


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## KPM (Apr 24, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> Where did you learn Weng Chun?



Hong Kong


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 24, 2016)

KPM said:


> Hong Kong



which family? Tang?


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## KPM (Apr 24, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> which family? Tang?



Yes.  Studied with Michael Tang the current lineage holder for Tang Yik Weng Chun.


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 27, 2016)

Ok good. I hear his pole is very good. That's his specialty. I have a good friend who used to train with Michael Tang from Brooklyn so I'm very familiar with Weng Chun.


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