# How much stick/ knife training is really necessary???



## cfr (Jul 20, 2008)

Greetings Seld Defense gurus. SD is really not my biggest reason for training, fun is. While I would like whatever I do to save my rear if the time came, it's really never been a big concern. Anyways, I recently added some FMA to my training. While I really do like the instructor and see the value in it, I keep wondering exactly how much knife/ stick training is really necessary for the real world? What are the chances I would run into an expert in this area trying to kill me? Better yet, how much skill does it really take to be able to stab someone or be able to hit them with a stick? It seems as though, *in my extremely limited FMA experience,* FMA training is really designed to go up against another skilled FMA'er? Very hard to get my head past this thought, but I don't want to bail out simply due to my own ignorance, so I thought I'd see what you guys thought???


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## stickarts (Jul 20, 2008)

The aim of most martial arts is achieve a high skill level and assume you may or may not be facing someone else with a high skill level. But you try to be prepared for a worst case scenario.
The beauty of stick fighting is that what you learn can be applied in an emptyhand situation or with sticks. 
In general, to directly answer your question, I think having some stick and knife training is necessary if you want to be a well trained martial artist but it may not be necessary to be a Grandmaster if you are just trying to learn basic self defense.


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## Deaf Smith (Jul 20, 2008)

I have a smattering of stick and knife skills. I don't know what level is 'necessary' cause you have to know just what kinds of attacks you will face. And since I don't have a crystal ball, who knows what the actual level of training at anything is really necessary.

Happly I do have considerable skills with Glocks, and that kind of makes up for the others.

Deaf


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## kailat (Jul 20, 2008)

As with what you said in the beginning makes the most sense at all..  It is that your doing MA for fun.  This is an honest answer that many of us sometimes fail to believe ourselves.  MA is fun, it should be and it should be taken serious at the times its meant to be, but yet at the other end, not so serious.  I think when we think of self defense we all get a little paranoid to the sense that we will all be attacked by this really mean and bad guy with major skills and we won't be able to defend ourselves.  WELL, natural instinctive fight or flight will most of the time work.  However, how much training is enough training?  IN any said martial art-skill level be it tae kwon do, karate, judo or stick and dagger training (fma) enough is essentially your own gain.  Its when you are satisfied you know enough.  I"ve been going at this FMA game for nearly 25years and Its just not enough for me.  I know martial arts like its my job and yet its not.  I started to slow down alot on my training this past year mainly because of life, family, money and just plain and simple "TIME"... even if I take a time off, i'll always have what i've learned.  So will you ever fight against a skilled FMA practicioner?  Some think so, some doubt it, unless you plan on doing competition style fighting wekaf etc...

  there is a difference in being a soldier and  being a martial artist.. so once you figure out the difference in mindset and training amongst the two you can then figure out what your training regime should be that best suites you and your lifestyle.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 20, 2008)

cfr said:


> Greetings Seld Defense gurus. SD is really not my biggest reason for training, fun is. While I would like whatever I do to save my rear if the time came, it's really never been a big concern. Anyways, I recently added some FMA to my training. While I really do like the instructor and see the value in it, I keep wondering exactly how much knife/ stick training is really necessary for the real world? What are the chances I would run into an expert in this area trying to kill me? Better yet, how much skill does it really take to be able to stab someone or be able to hit them with a stick? It seems as though, *in my extremely limited FMA experience,* FMA training is really designed to go up against another skilled FMA'er? Very hard to get my head past this thought, but I don't want to bail out simply due to my own ignorance, so I thought I'd see what you guys thought???




If a person can train to go up against a trained person with a knife or stick then they should be able to read and react to the untrained as well. 

In my experience, having a stick move fast at you, and then having the untrained swing at you also has the possibility of working but your training should kick in. I have had tire irons, baseball bats, golf clubs, 2x4's and clubs and others blunt items. Being familiar with the weapons and understanding the movements made it easier for me to react and survive the encounter. 

As to blade work, most of not chosen to engage, but those that have, usually offered me their weapon which gave me a chance to react and survive. I have been asked before, what I teach beginners on knife defense, and then someone asks what would I do and it is different. This confuses people as they wonder why do you teach one and do another. It is a beginning way to get people to move. They have to understand how to move and some basic principals before they can move to the next level of understanding. They also get a chance to begin moving and improving their timing to then move like the better trained people. Remember we all learned to crawl before we learned to walk. Or at least most of did, I am sure some of those out there skipped it but there are few of them.


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## mook jong man (Jul 20, 2008)

The footwork i learned in Kali Illustrisimo and the constant knife sparring has made my Wing Chun footwork a lot more explosive . 

I also like to think perhaps i am a little more brave now after being exposed to blunt machetes and just putting the hockey helmet on and going up against our instructor , even though the knife and sticks are padded they still hurt and when you get hit in the head you see stars .

 I think if you weren't already a martial artist you probably wouldn"t get back up after one of these strikes , but somehow you just get tougher and you keep getting back up and getting back in there . 

I think all these things have a carry over effect to what ever art you do , and even if you are never in a knife fight in your whole life at least you have developed these attributes.


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## terryl965 (Jul 20, 2008)

As much as you need


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## arnisador (Jul 20, 2008)

cfr said:


> I keep wondering exactly how much knife/ stick training is really necessary for the real world? What are the chances I would run into an expert in this area trying to kill me? Better yet, how much skill does it really take to be able to stab someone or be able to hit them with a stick?



An untrained person with a knife is extremely deadly, even to a highly trained individual. Someone who is fast and dedicated is going to be hard to handle. An untrained person with a stick gives you a little more room to maneuver, but a drunkard with a baseball bat will still give you a heck of a time. It takes very little skill to be deadly with these weapons (esp. the knife, though the reach of the stick generally makes it a superior weapon in skilled hands).



> It seems as though, *in my extremely limited FMA experience,* FMA training is really designed to go up against another skilled FMA'er?



Answering this is difficult. The FMAs evolved for real combat. Many take an offensive attitude: If you attack me, I attack you back! Remember first that if you must face the knife, knowing what it can do is important. Where I study JKD, even senior JKDers often say to me "I didn't know you could hit me from that angle with the stick!" Experience with the weapon matters. Your average street thug knows relatively little about the knife..._but he knows 2-3 tricks and that's enough for the one time he faces you_. These tricks are traded by gang members, in prisons, etc. They will know _something_. Training in the FMAs prepares you for anything (but there's no guarantee you can make it work when you need it, sadly). A little FMA training will open your eyes to the possibilities of the knife, making whatever other training you engage in that much more realistic.

But many FMAs have gone further. They have developed counters to their own counters. It isn't a game: Like in chess, the winner may well be he who makes the next-to-last mistake. (With knife vs. knife, both sides can lose, of course). It improves overall skills...sensitivity, ability to pick up on surprising lines of attack, ability to flow from one situation to the next, etc. Even if you never use anything more than a simple defense, training for a higher level increases the odds you can successfully perform at a basic level under stress. 

Some arts have taken it further. There are stick-fencing arts that are so intricate that it does indeed seem as though only a fellow high-level practitioner of the same art could even throw the technique that would let you pull off your counter! Balintawak Eskrima comes to mind. We always warn people to avoid the "fencing/dueling" mentality if they're interested in self-defense. Tehre's nothing wrong with practicing the arnis version of kendo, but one must be clear about it!

Some people say that you must be prepared for three types of opponents: An untrained fighter; a trained fighter from a different system; and a trained fighter from your system. If you believe that, then starting with simple defenses and progressing is good. In JKD we very much train for different types of fighters: The wild swinger, the boxer, the kickboxer, teh grappler, etc. In the FMAs we generally consider first the untrained knifer/stickfighter, and then progress to a more skilled opponent, and ultimately many arts look at how to counter their _own _techniques. So I would say that No, FMA training is not designed to soley go up against another skilled FMAer, but that at the higher levels you do learn that also. But it's a good reminder that you should work with beginners at your school and cross-train with others when possible.

I can't emphasize strongly enough that the average street criminal knows more about the knife than you think he does. His training is not systematic, but if he's still at it then it's effective. He knows how to distract you to set up (his or his accomplice's) shot; he knows how to get in a fast and effective strike; and he knows how to handle a simple "arms up" counter. Don't underestimate him. If he's been to prison, he's been in and survived a knife culture.

Short answer: I'm biased, but I'd recommend training with an FMAer for a few months. If you haven't, you probably don't know how much you don't know about what the knfie and stick can do. A few months of this will pay life-long dividens as you judge the usefulness of knife defense techniques taught to you in other arts. 

Good luck.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 21, 2008)

cfr said:


> Greetings Seld Defense gurus. SD is really not my biggest reason for training, fun is. While I would like whatever I do to save my rear if the time came, it's really never been a big concern. Anyways, I recently added some FMA to my training. While I really do like the instructor and see the value in it, I keep wondering exactly how much knife/ stick training is really necessary for the real world? What are the chances I would run into an expert in this area trying to kill me? Better yet, how much skill does it really take to be able to stab someone or be able to hit them with a stick? It seems as though, *in my extremely limited FMA experience,* FMA training is really designed to go up against another skilled FMA'er? Very hard to get my head past this thought, but I don't want to bail out simply due to my own ignorance, so I thought I'd see what you guys thought???


 Sounds like you're doing a lot of dueling in FMA.  The answer to question is that in a REAL situation where your life is on the line, if you have the choice of picking up a knife or bludgeon over using your hands or feet, what are you going to do?

As to the question of 'how much skill is necessary to stab someone or hit them with a stick' a better question is how much skill do THEY need to hit YOU with a stick or stab YOU with a knife, and how much skill do you need to defend yourself from it.  It doesn't take a lot of skill to stab or hit someone, but it takes skill to defend against that.  Understanding the dynamics of stick, knife and empty hand is critical for self-defense, throw in gun and you've covered the threats you can face from another human being.


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## SamT (Jul 21, 2008)

You have to look a bit beyond what you do when you're practicing. For example, in our Tang Soo Do dojang, at 5th Gup, we begin to learn to use escrima. I'm not too good on what we do with them, but I do believe that we apply what we learn with those to canes and similar items.

Also, learning everything you can puts more at your disposal to use in different situations. It also gives you more of a choice and exposes you to things that may work better for you. You never know, there may be a high level manuever that you'll learn, and think "Hey, this is actually pretty easy and effective." And be sure, there will be many that will have you thinking "Oh what the heck is this for?"

And a bit of off topic advice, keep on training them, even when they get boring. Doing so creates muscle memory, and your body will take over in a situation in which you need to use what you learn.


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## cfr (Jul 21, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Sounds like you're doing a lot of dueling in FMA.


 
Not really, why? 



sgtmac_46 said:


> As to the question of 'how much skill is necessary to stab someone or hit them with a stick' a better question is how much skill do THEY need to hit YOU with a stick or stab YOU with a knife, and how much skill do you need to defend yourself from it. It doesn't take a lot of skill to stab or hit someone, but it takes skill to defend against that. Understanding the dynamics of stick, knife and empty hand is critical for self-defense, throw in gun and you've covered the threats you can face from another human being.


 
Now THIS makes sense to me. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!


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## MJS (Jul 21, 2008)

cfr said:


> Greetings Seld Defense gurus. SD is really not my biggest reason for training, fun is. While I would like whatever I do to save my rear if the time came, it's really never been a big concern. Anyways, I recently added some FMA to my training. While I really do like the instructor and see the value in it, I keep wondering exactly how much knife/ stick training is really necessary for the real world? What are the chances I would run into an expert in this area trying to kill me? Better yet, how much skill does it really take to be able to stab someone or be able to hit them with a stick? It seems as though, *in my extremely limited FMA experience,* FMA training is really designed to go up against another skilled FMA'er? Very hard to get my head past this thought, but I don't want to bail out simply due to my own ignorance, so I thought I'd see what you guys thought???


 
I started a thread a while back about weapons and how they function.  IMHO, I feel that if one is going to work weapon defense, they should know how the weapon works, how it can be used, etc.  I doubt that we'll ever face a world class grappler, boxer or FMA master in a street fight, however, I do believe that we should train for the worst case scenario.  

Its not rocket science when it comes to swinging a blade or stick.  But, training in a weapon based art, you will find that there are a number of things that can be done.  I've been training in Arnis for a while now, and my eyes are still opened at the things I see.


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## MJS (Jul 21, 2008)

cfr said:


> It seems as though, *in my extremely limited FMA experience,* FMA training is really designed to go up against another skilled FMA'er? Very hard to get my head past this thought, but I don't want to bail out simply due to my own ignorance, so I thought I'd see what you guys thought???


 
I disagree.  Thats like saying BJJ is only good for going up against another BJJist in a ring.  Many of the FMAs that you'll come across are weapon based arts.  Compare some of the weapons work you see in a TMA vs. the FMAs and you will see a huge difference.  I've added in some FMA flavor to many of my Kenpo club and knife disarms, because IMHO, the FMAs are at the top of the list when it comes to weapons.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 22, 2008)

I think a simple answer may be that it is better to have some understanding of how to strike and defend with a stick and knife then to have none.  
Yes anyone can pick up a stick and swing it but not all know how to defend in a relatively safe way.
As for the knife, well, In most knife attacks are not seen until to late.  Most people do not duel with knives, they stick and slice then sick to kill. Knowing what body movements may preclude a knife attack is as important as knowing what to do. Yes if you know the attack is coming or if the weapon is presented before an attack knowledge of how to handle the event might keep you alive


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## still learning (Jul 27, 2008)

Hello, How much stick and knife training needed?  ....none if facing NO knife or stick attackers....   or feel you will never use a knife or stick?

One would limit themselves if they do not learn ANY level of knife or stick attacks and One would limit themselves if they do not learn how to use a knife or stick.

So the answer please?   ......859

Aloha,   still at 456

PS: not learning any? .....(0) knowledge....equals.....getting hurt real bad!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 27, 2008)

cfr said:


> Not really, why?


 What I mean is that it sounds like you're doing a lot of stick on stick drills that appear pretty unrealistics EXCEPT in an FMA stick fight.....but there is FAR MORE to the FMA's than just that.


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## CatNap (Jul 27, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> I have a smattering of stick and knife skills. I don't know what level is 'necessary' cause you have to know just what kinds of attacks you will face. And since I don't have a crystal ball, who knows what the actual level of training at anything is really necessary.
> 
> Happly I do have considerable skills with Glocks, and that kind of makes up for the others.
> 
> Deaf


 
I'm a Beretta girl myself....I've studied Arnis for close to five years.  It's a great style and yes, it can be applied to empty hands as well. I don't know, for me, Wing Chun kind of suited me more but I wouldn't mind jumping back into Arnis.  It's an effective art as well.


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## Imua Kuntao (Jul 27, 2008)

What you really need to know is when you should side step or when to move backward and when to move forward, also every angle has is own techniques, you need to know when and how to apply them. Then there is the matter of know the opponents balance and the targets. There is also timing and judging distance. How much do you need to know about stick and knife?, they are extentions of the body and are of different lengths. It all depends of how well you want to be prepared for self-defense


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## KenpoTex (Jul 28, 2008)

CatNap said:


> I'm a Beretta girl myself....


 I'll try not to hold that against you...


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## cfr (Aug 2, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> What I mean is that it sounds like you're doing a lot of stick on stick drills that appear pretty unrealistics EXCEPT in an FMA stick fight.....but there is FAR MORE to the FMA's than just that.


 
Yes that is correct. For now I'm going to continue training and trust the process, which is pretty out of charachter for me, so I'll keep my fingers crossed.


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## TridentOne (Aug 5, 2008)

You don't want to only focus on technique, even though you may only train for fun. For instance with sticks, your hands need to feel the sticks banging or your likely to run into problems if you need to use a stick for SD. Technique is nice but hard practice is necessary to get used to the banging and adrenaline.


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## Langenschwert (Aug 6, 2008)

Simply put, if you want to learn how to deal with weapons, you've got to learn how to use them.  If you think that training "knife defence" once a week is going to cut it, you're dead wrong.  If you're really serious about using your unarmed training to fend off a knife attack, then it's something you've got to train every day.  There are so many ways a knife weilder can mess up a skilled unarmed MAist it's not even funny.  Remember that even today, 60% of stabbings are fatal.

So the answer is: if you want to be prepared to use it for real, you've got to train it LOTS. 

Best regards,

-Mark


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