# 15th Dan - is this possible?



## ryuu (Sep 29, 2007)

I thought the highest was only 9th Dan? And then I read stuff like the wikipedia entry for Stephen K. Hayes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_K._Hayes) which says that he has a 10th dan. So.. pls enlighten me. What's the actual case with the dans? Reason I'm asking is I'm determining if the person I'm looking to train with is for real or not...


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## grydth (Sep 29, 2007)

The highest legit rank I ever saw was a 10th dan in Goju-ryu.

One suspects in this age of meaningless titles, rampant self-promotion and competitive hype, that 20th, 50th or even 100th dans are possible... Are these creatures worthwhile as teachers befitting the rank?  You decide.


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## ryuu (Sep 29, 2007)

yeah, I'm deciding right now. I know that hype and self-promotion is probably inevitable when it comes to certain motivations, but "officially speaking" (?), there must be some kind of a limit to the dan? or is there no such thing as a limit? I'm not too sure about how the system of ranks works in (Bujinkan) ninjutsu.

thanks for the reply!


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## ArmorOfGod (Sep 29, 2007)

Most styles go to 10th dan, but Bujinkan ninjutsu goes to 15th dan.

AoG


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## Andy Moynihan (Sep 29, 2007)

ryuu said:


> I thought the highest was only 9th Dan? And then I read stuff like the wikipedia entry for Stephen K. Hayes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_K._Hayes) which says that he has a 10th dan. So.. pls enlighten me. What's the actual case with the dans? Reason I'm asking is I'm determining if the person I'm looking to train with is for real or not...


 

The way I understand it is this( someone from the Bujinkan will likely correct me if this is incorrect):

At the time Stephen Hayes was a student of Masaaki Hatsumi, Hatsumi's system hadn't yet been reorganized into what's now called the Bujinkan, it was still whatever it was called before then ( I think Togakure-Ryu Ninpo but my history's hazy). At this time( I believe late 70's early 80's), 10th degree *WAS* the top rank, and Hayes earned this legitimately.

Now apparently at *some* point between that time and now, the system was reorganized into what is now known as the Bujinkan( I do not know what the difference is), and the new rank structure changed to include 11th through 15th degree. By this time Hayes had decided to walk his own path and did not continue on this one.

Not being a student of the Bujinkan, or of ninjutsu apart from a minor historical interest, that's the best I can give you.


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## ryuu (Sep 29, 2007)

ok, great, thanks, guys! I think I found my answer already... Just checked with the wikipedia entry on Bujinkan (I believe this should be trustworthy enough?), and saw that yes, previously it was only 10, but after that, got changed to 15... I was previously looking at the entry for "ninjutsu", and therefore could not find this info. Or does somebody have any issues with the ninjutsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjutsu) or Bujinkan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bujinkan) wikipedia entries?


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## jks9199 (Sep 29, 2007)

There are several threads on Bujinkan ranking in these forums.  They're worth checking out.

But the short answer, as has been given, is yes.  Bujinkan ranks run up to the 15th dan; there's a 15th dan who posts on MT with some regularity.

The top rank, within any system, is determined by that system.  Some systems define ranks that nobody has earned yet; others have titles, but no dan ranking.  There are also lots of threads about ranking in martial arts around MT; I'd check them out, too.


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## ryuu (Sep 29, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> There are several threads on Bujinkan ranking in these forums.  They're worth checking out.



sorry, but do you have any specific threads in mind? I'd do a search for them, except that the search results don't seem to be too related to ranking.


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## arnisador (Sep 29, 2007)

I have heard that strictly speaking the system still goes only to 10th dan but that there are 5 additional honors one can earn after becoming a 10th dan that are loosely described as 11th through 15th dan. Is that so, or is it so that there is a literal 15th dan rank?

In principle, Judo has 11th and 12th dan ranks. The latter (and maybe both?) can only be given posthumously. Other traditional Japanese systems stop at 5th or 8th dan. It varies!


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## newtothe dark (Sep 29, 2007)

Originally there wasn't all these color belts and stripes and tabs and panels and what not. All the arts have changed over time for many different reasons just as man and nature evolves so have the arts and their visual aides. Just a opinion not meant as a flame.


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## LuzRD (Sep 29, 2007)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49550

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18950

if you have questions about a specific shihan you could ask if anyone here knows of them. its a good chance someone knows of them or has trained with them or...


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Sep 29, 2007)

newtothe dark said:


> Originally there wasn't all these color belts and stripes and tabs and panels and what not. All the arts have changed over time for many different reasons just as man and nature evolves so have the arts and their visual aides. Just a opinion not meant as a flame.



My friend, I'll have to stand behind you on this one!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 30, 2007)

arnisador said:


> I have heard that strictly speaking the system still goes only to 10th dan but that there are 5 additional honors one can earn after becoming a 10th dan that are loosely described as 11th through 15th dan. Is that so, or is it so that there is a literal 15th dan rank?
> 
> In principle, Judo has 11th and 12th dan ranks. The latter (and maybe both?) can only be given posthumously. Other traditional Japanese systems stop at 5th or 8th dan. It varies!


 
Arnisador has a pretty good grasp here on the Bujinkan ranking system.

Truthfully ranking systems or lack there off are different in almost every style.  This is a probably the way it should be as each system is unique unto itself.


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## phlaw (Sep 30, 2007)

There is this moron in my town that actually uses basic math and adds up his rank to get to 15th degree...

http://www.marquartstkd.com/


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## SKB (Sep 30, 2007)

phlaw said:


> There is this moron in my town that actually uses basic math and adds up his rank to get to 15th degree...
> 
> http://www.marquartstkd.com/


 
Wow!


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## newtothe dark (Sep 30, 2007)

phlaw said:


> There is this moron in my town that actually uses basic math and adds up his rank to get to 15th degree...
> 
> http://www.marquartstkd.com/


 

Thats way to funny guess a fourth degree is a master now as he says he is a triple master lol


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## grydth (Sep 30, 2007)

You know, these remind me of all the silly made up awards Hollywood used to heap on Michael Jackson 'Entertainer of the Century' type fluff.... until they found out he had this thing for young boys...

I wonder when even these titles will not suffice to describe their radiant martial splendor.... what new ones can be made up? Century Dan?


Super-Di-Duper Grandestmaster and 75th Dan (and Counting)  Grydth


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## Fushichou (Oct 3, 2007)

Rankings between arts is not very comparable, we like to pretend that they are, but in reality they are loosely comparable at best.  They are often likened to academic degrees, but in academia there are accreditation bodies that provide standard benchmarks of what degrees mean, and it is quite expected from students to go from one school to another and their degrees transfer because they are teaching the same subject.  A Ph.D. in Physics from M.I.T. doesn't mean starting over as an undergrad when you go to Cal Tech because they are teaching California Physics instead of Boston Physics.  

All a ranking shows is that a martial arts organization has recognized the skill/dedication/development (or to be cynical, pocketbook) of a member and assigned it a number and/or color.  Because of similarities in ranking, we get the illusion that they can be easily compared.

If somebody said they were a 9th Dan in Judo, that would mean they were one of the very best judoka alive, and one of the best ever, and they would be famous throughout their entire system.  If somebody said they were a 9th dan in Kendo, that's even more outrageous since 9th Dan is even more rare in that art (I don't even know if there are any currently alive).  If somebody said they were a 9th Dan in Bujinkan Ninjutsu, that wouldn't be an outrageous claim at all and there are a good number of Shidoshi with that rank or higher.  

So, if Sensei Joe down at the local dojo says he's a Nth Dan in whatever art, that isn't inherently an outrageous claim, depending on the context of the ranking system of that art, but it does mean that the wise potential student should investigate the art he teaches and see how it's ranking structure holds up and if his rank can be verified with any larger organization.

The kyu/dan system was created for Judo by Jigoro Kano, and in his own life he never specified it only went to 10, he actually wrote originally there was no theoretical upper limit and that if somebody was good enough there was no reason they couldn't reach 11, or 12 or whatever.  

Now, as Kano only promoted others to 10th Dan in his own lifetime, and posthumously he was recognized as a 12th Dan (to my knowledge, he never claimed any Judo rank in his own life, the 12th Dan was given as a sort of posthumous lifetime achievement award to the founder), it became tradition to think of 10th Dan as the limit of human achievement, and when other arts copied the rank system, this went with it.


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