# Sparring



## abe_tz

Can one only become a good fighter and be prepared for a fight if they spar? Or is simply learning the form and ingraining those movements into one's reflexes just as efficient?


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## Bill Mattocks

abe_tz said:


> Can one only become a good fighter and be prepared for a fight if they spar? Or is simply learning the form and ingraining those movements into one's reflexes just as efficient?



There is no good answer to this.  Everyone is different, every situation is different.

First, we must ask what you mean by 'good fighter'.  Do you mean someone capable of defending themselves outside of the martial arts environment, as in self-defense?

Then we must ask what you mean by 'sparring'.  Do you mean one-point touch-based tournament sparring?  Full-contact?  Something in between?

Of course, a lot depends on the person, their training, and what they are trying to get out of it.  One person might simply practice what they are taught and never spar, and yet be able to put that training into use in a self-defense situation.  Another might be terrific at point-sparring in tournaments and not be able to defend themselves worth a lick when the need arises.

It is often said that we will respond as we are trained.  Train to hit hard, we hit hard.  Train to lightly touch, and we lightly touch.  I used to believe this as well.  I don't anymore.

People are complex creatures.  Self-defense fighting is a very different situation than anything (thankfully) most people ever face.  It is extremely difficult to make general statements about what is best for any individual person with regard to their ability to defend themselves in a self-defense situation.


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## JowGaWolf

abe_tz said:


> Can one only become a good fighter and be prepared for a fight if they spar? Or is simply learning the form and ingraining those movements into one's reflexes just as efficient?


 Yes, but with exceptions.  People who spar and prepare for a fight almost always doe better with fighting than those who don't spar or prepare to fight.  Can you be a good doctor without practicing medicine or training to be a doctor?
Can you be a good singer without practicing and training to be a singer? Keep in mind that training is an action that you do repetitively that makes you better than you were before the training.

We train the things that we want to be good with.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

abe_tz said:


> Can one only become a good fighter and be prepared for a fight if they spar? Or is simply learning the form and ingraining those movements into one's reflexes just as efficient?


Not sparring and just practicing in the air is definitely not as efficient as sparring and practicing technique. I would argue that it's not sufficient as well. IMO you can't become a good fighter without sparring. However, just sparring won't make you a good fighter. If I had no experience but me and my brother or a friend sparred every day for years, even if we made a ring and gave ourselves 3 3-minute rounds and went full contact, we would probably both lose horribly if we tried to fight someone who trained at a gym or dojo with sparring for the same amount of time.
Now if me or my friend did that every day, and fought with someone who went to a dojo for the same amount of time but never sparred (Assuming neither of us went into a rage or froze on the spot etc.), I would honestly bet on hypothetical me to win. Can't say for sure but IMO the experience fighting and slowly figuring things out on our own would trump someone who has all the technical knowledge in their head but has never tried any of it out on another person.


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## Buka

Uh oh


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## Kung Fu Wang

abe_tz said:


> Can one only become a good fighter and be prepared for a fight if they spar?


You can only "test" your skill through sparring. You cannot "develop" any skill through sparring. Your skill can only be "developed" through "partner drill".

For example, no matter how many rounds that you may have done your sparring, you will never suddenly execute a perfect "flying knee", "spin hook kick", or "hip throw"  in your sparring. In other words, you will never use any new moves that you have not trained. You just repeat doing what you like to do. In the long run, your skill will be limited.

Also, the technique is only the 50%. The other 50% is the ability (such as strength, speed, balance, flexibility, ...) that you can't obtain from just sparring.


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## Touch Of Death

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can only "test" your skill through sparring. You cannot "develop" any skill through sparring. Your skill can only be "developed" through "partner drill".
> 
> For example, no matter how many rounds that you may have done your sparring, you will never suddenly execute a perfect "flying knee", "spin hook kick", or "hip throw"  in your sparring. In other words, you will never use any new moves that you have not trained. You just repeat doing what you like to do. In the long run, your skill will be limited.
> 
> Also, the technique is only the 50%. The other 50% is the ability (such as strength, speed, balance, flexibility, ...) that you can't obtain from just sparring.


I don't think I could disagree more. Sparring is the perfect place to try new things. Especially if you limit yourself to the new things. Free sparing should never be free. Work on something. It's OK.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can only "test" your skill through sparring. You cannot "develop" any skill through sparring. Your skill can only be "developed" through "partner drill".
> 
> For example, no matter how many rounds that you may have done your sparring, you will never suddenly execute a perfect "flying knee", "spin hook kick", or "hip throw"  in your sparring. In other words, you will never use any new moves that you have not trained. You just repeat doing what you like to do. In the long run, your skill will be limited.
> 
> Also, the technique is only the 50%. The other 50% is the ability (such as strength, speed, balance, flexibility, ...) that you can't obtain from just sparring.


If you're consciously thinking about your sparring, and what you are doing, you'll practice using new strategies and techniques all the time.


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## crazydiamond

I have been "sparing" once a week on top of regular classes. I have learned some good practical application of normal weekly training (which does include some minor contact).  I am too old to enter the ring for MMA fighting or boxing, but from a basic self defense standpoint what I am learning most at this point is to overcome the fear, panic of getting hit - particularly in the head.  This appears to be what my instructor wished to help us with - not freezing up or falling apart when someone hits you.  I am still not there yet - my instructor got a good hook in to my head while boxing sparing a month ago - and I am still dealing with the emotions of it (sorry if that makes me sound like a Pu$$y). We have also done 3-1 with the boxing gloves, hits coming in from all sides, and that was also a major thing to get over.


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## Touch Of Death

crazydiamond said:


> I have been "sparing" once a week on top of regular classes. I have learned some good practical application of normal weekly training (which does include some minor contact).  I am too old to enter the ring for MMA fighting or boxing, but from a basic self defense standpoint what I am learning most at this point is to overcome the fear, panic of getting hit - particularly in the head.  This appears to be what my instructor wished to help us with - not freezing up or falling apart when someone hits you.  I am still not there yet - my instructor got a good hook in to my head while boxing sparing a month ago - and I am still dealing with the emotions of it (sorry if that makes me sound like a Pu$$y). We have also done 3-1 with the boxing gloves, hits coming in from all sides, and that was also a major thing to get over.


Cover up and rest, while you plot various evils.


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## Andrew Green

abe_tz said:


> Can one only become a good fighter and be prepared for a fight if they spar? Or is simply learning the form and ingraining those movements into one's reflexes just as efficient?



Think about this question in any other context.  Can you be a good swimmer without swimming?  Can you be a good driver without ever driving a car?  Can you be a good basketball player without ever playing a game?

You might be able to get more prepared then "the other guy", but calling yourself good at something you've never actually done seems kind of odd.


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## LeftchopFTW

Andrew Green said:


> Think about this question in any other context.  Can you be a good swimmer without swimming?  Can you be a good driver without ever driving a car?  Can you be a good basketball player without ever playing a game?
> 
> You might be able to get more prepared then "the other guy", but calling yourself good at something you've never actually done seems kind of odd.



That is spot on buddy!

That is a great answer to a really good question.

I would 100% agree with you.

Once again buddy great opinion, great point and I am picking up what you are throwing down my brother.

Kind Regards

LCFTW


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## Bill Mattocks

Andrew Green said:


> Think about this question in any other context.  Can you be a good swimmer without swimming?  Can you be a good driver without ever driving a car?  Can you be a good basketball player without ever playing a game?
> 
> You might be able to get more prepared then "the other guy", but calling yourself good at something you've never actually done seems kind of odd.



The other side of this coin is that a driver actually practices by driving.  A swimmer practices swimming by getting in the water and swimming.  Sparring, even with moderate to heavy contact, is not fighting.  It resembles fighting in some ways.  It is similar to fighting.  But fighting it is not.

So I don't think you can directly compare the one to the other.  The only way to practice fighting in a self-defense context is to fight in a self-defense context.  A more logical argument would be, can you learn to drive by driving a simulator?  That's a more apt comparison.

Also, I threw this out there, but please do not ignore it.  In my experience, even people who have trained for combat, such as in the military, do not all respond the same way when faced with such situations.  Some fight, some freeze, some run away, some freak out.  And you can't predict which one will do what; even though they all had the exact same training.

I just don't think there is any realistic way to practice for pure self-defense that is 'better' than another type of training  in a provable way.  Everyone has their opinions, but that's what they are; opinions.  There are no 'facts' other than our own experiences and things we've seen and heard, and those do not constitute facts, they constitute anecdotal evidence.


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## JowGaWolf

crazydiamond said:


> what I am learning most at this point is to overcome the fear, panic of getting hit
> - particularly in the head


 This is a common fear for many people so don't feel bad about it.  This fear slowly goes away as you do more and more contact sparring.  Ironically fearing getting hit has the opposite effect, it seems to cause people to get hit more in the place they don't want to get hit.

Here's how I got over it.  I analyzed my defenses and I identified the things on my body that I can't condition and the things on my body that I can condition.
1. Head - I can't condition so my head gets priority defense.
2. Arms can be conditioned so I don't worry about defending them as much 
3. Ribs can't be conditioned so I know I need to protect my ribs.  If my arms are conditioned then I can use my arms as a shield and if I can prevent the hit from landing solid then my ribs and arms should be fine.
4. Stomach. - I can condition that and no defense is really needed as long as I don't take a direct hit. Moving with the force of a punch to the stomach or moving so the punch or glances my stomach should keep it safe long enough for me to finish the fight.
5. Legs - I can't use my hands to protect my legs because then that takes them away from guarding my head and punching my opponent.  This means that I need to make sure that my legs can defend themselves with leg checks, kicks, conditioning, and strong stances and quick movement.  The better my legs can do this the less likely I'll need to use my hands to help.

Now everything is fairly covered and I'm not so worried about getting hit. Some areas have a higher priority depending on who I'm fighting.  I don't know if something like this would help you, but it has worked fairly well for me.


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## FriedRice

Buka said:


> Uh oh




  Training w/o sparring, then make sure you only fight women, children and old men.


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## pgsmith

FriedRice said:


> Training w/o sparring, then make sure you only fight women, children and old men.



  That all depends upon your definition of fighting. Are you defining fighting as being in a ring with rules and a referee, or maybe being accosted by a drunk at a bar, or maybe it's attempting to keep the thugs that have jumped you from killing you for your phone, or it could also be the insurgent that snuck up behind you and is trying to wrest your rifle away from you. What sort of fighting are you talking about? I've done very little sparring, but have had more than my share of fighting, none of it with children or old men.


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## FriedRice

pgsmith said:


> That all depends upon your definition of fighting. Are you defining fighting as being in a ring with rules and a referee, or maybe being accosted by a drunk at a bar, or maybe it's attempting to keep the thugs that have jumped you from killing you for your phone, or it could also be the insurgent that snuck up behind you and is trying to wrest your rifle away from you. What sort of fighting are you talking about? I've done very little sparring, but have had more than my share of fighting, none of it with children or old men.



All of the above. And punching someone in the face to KO them, works anywhere.


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## crazydiamond

JowGaWolf said:


> This is a common fear for many people so don't feel bad about it.  This fear slowly goes away as you do more and more contact sparring.  Ironically fearing getting hit has the opposite effect, it seems to cause people to get hit more in the place they don't want to get hit.



Thanks. 

I am kind of sorta just getting "used" to taps to the head. I This includes putting my cloves up and just dealing with a hit though my gloves pressed to my head. My fellow students (beginners) tend to be as kind as I am when light sparing - and they are at my level in terms of speed. I am 50 and started when I was 49.

My instructor however is 3 degree black belt and one time MMA fighter. He pushed a little more on the intensity and frankly when I went to hit him, he came in so quick I could not see it coming. I did not freeze, or stop hitting back or defending and was able to lightly catch him with a counter cross - but I will be honest that was the hardest I have been hit and I kind of had to process that feeling for a long while after classes. 

From a self defense perspective I think I am better suited not to crumble or panic if I am caught with a punch now in the real world - and I would work harder as you say to defend against it.


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## FriedRice

crazydiamond said:


> I am 50 and started when I was 49.
> 
> but I will be honest that was the hardest I have been hit and I kind of had to process that feeling for a long while after classes.
> 
> From a self defense perspective I think I am better suited not to crumble or panic if I am caught with a punch now in the real world - and I would work harder as you say to defend against it.



Buy good headgear, like $80-100 that Boxers use,  and not the junk that many TMA schools train with, made by Century, Pro Force...   You are taking a lot of risks at your age with head shots...sparring, even with the agreed upon, light level, can spike to hard at times when people get mad....but it's true, getting hit pretty hard and often, is apart of real Self Defense training.


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## Andrew Green

Bill Mattocks said:


> The other side of this coin is that a driver actually practices by driving.  A swimmer practices swimming by getting in the water and swimming.  Sparring, even with moderate to heavy contact, is not fighting.  It resembles fighting in some ways.  It is similar to fighting.  But fighting it is not.



Perhaps, but the goal is simulating reality as close as you can.  If you are going to train for a fight (boxing, mama, may thai, etc) you are going to spar, and spar pretty hard.  It's still not a fight, but you want to get close.  If you are going to go into space, you're going to spend time in simulators.  

It's also a build up.  You don't muck around on dry land doing exercises about diving then step up onto the 10 meter and go for a fancy dive.  You build up, one step at a time.  Are you saying that because I can't actually do a couple flips off the 10 meter I should not bother with training on the tower until I have to try it for the first time?

All that said, who cares?  Most of us are never going to get in a street fight in our life.  Do what's fun for you, if you don't like sparring then don't spar.  But in that fantasy world where fights happen as frequent as in kung fu movies the person who trained the closest to reality is going to be at an advantage.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

crazydiamond said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I am kind of sorta just getting "used" to taps to the head. I This includes putting my cloves up and just dealing with a hit though my gloves pressed to my head. My fellow students (beginners) tend to be as kind as I am when light sparing - and they are at my level in terms of speed. I am 50 and started when I was 49.
> 
> My instructor however is 3 degree black belt and one time MMA fighter. He pushed a little more on the intensity and frankly when I went to hit him, he came in so quick I could not see it coming. I did not freeze, or stop hitting back or defending and was able to lightly catch him with a counter cross - but I will be honest that was the hardest I have been hit and I kind of had to process that feeling for a long while after classes.
> 
> From a self defense perspective I think I am better suited not to crumble or panic if I am caught with a punch now in the real world - and I would work harder as you say to defend against it.


Something that I've seen done to work with this, that appears to have worked well:
Have a spar where both of you are moving back and forth, you don't attack, and your partner just tries to punch your head while you dodge. They start off slow and then get faster. Helps build confidence that you know what to do when someone comes at your head faster, and it slowly acclimates you to the super fast punches your sensei throws.
It won't help so much with the actual 'getting hit' part, but it should hopefully help responding when the punch comes, and its a way to do it that doesn't risk any brain injuries.


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## Bill Mattocks

Andrew Green said:


> Perhaps, but the goal is simulating reality as close as you can.



Is that the goal?  And does sparring simulate reality?  I am not at all certain that this has been proven to be the case.  You are making an assumption.



> If you are going to train for a fight (boxing, mama, may thai, etc) you are going to spar, and spar pretty hard.  It's still not a fight, but you want to get close.  If you are going to go into space, you're going to spend time in simulators.



I agree that sparring is good practice for controlled fighting, which is just sparring for points, extra hard.  Again, I do not assume that sparring is anything like a real fight.



> It's also a build up.  You don't muck around on dry land doing exercises about diving then step up onto the 10 meter and go for a fancy dive.  You build up, one step at a time.  Are you saying that because I can't actually do a couple flips off the 10 meter I should not bother with training on the tower until I have to try it for the first time?



I said nothing of the kind.  I said that practice at swimming is swimming.  If you want to use it as an analogy, then practice fighting is fighting.  Not sparring.



> All that said, who cares?  Most of us are never going to get in a street fight in our life.  Do what's fun for you, if you don't like sparring then don't spar.  But in that fantasy world where fights happen as frequent as in kung fu movies the person who trained the closest to reality is going to be at an advantage.



I never said I don't like sparring, where did you get that?  We spar in my dojo, I've sparred in various tournaments, I find it entertaining and fun.

I am not even convinced that sparring is not effective to try to prepare for a self-defense situation that might never happen; but I am also not convinced that it is.  As I mentioned, I've seen trained military professionals freeze or otherwise not behave the way they were trained in stressful situations; this leads me to believe that people are different.  Not everyone reacts the same way, even when they have the same training.  I don't know how to get around that.

I've certain had to fight for my life, hand-to-hand, with people who wanted to kill me.  It was not fun, not once.  I haven't had it happen since I started martial arts training (I started formal training at age 46) and may never have it happen again.  I only know a few things for certain, and they only apply to me.  One is that I know I try hard not to get into fights.  I'll go to great lengths to avoid one.  Another is that if the fight is on, I can keep my head and do what I have to do.  Another is that I'm a freaking monster if I think my life is in danger.  And (so far) when losing isn't a good option, I haven't lost.

I don't know if sparring has helped me with 'street' (by which I mean self-defense, I don't get into 'challenge' or 'macho bullpucky' fights) or not.  I tend to think it has.  But I have no proof of that, and neither does anyone else.  It's all guesswork.


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## Dinkydoo

A combination of fitness/conditioning, good pad/partner drills to ingrain good habits (like forward pressure, stepping to the side when under stress instead of just backwards, blocking properly...etc) and free sparring will be required if you want to be able to fight. 

Sparring is great for lots of things but without the good padwork/partner drills, I've found it's not so good. You'd be surprised at how much you can spar without actually getting any better. If you can't or haven't tried to do something as a reflex in a drill, don't expect to be able to do it in free sparring. 

General guidelines that work for me


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## Touch Of Death

Dinkydoo said:


> A combination of fitness/conditioning, good pad/partner drills to ingrain good habits (like forward pressure, stepping to the side when under stress instead of just backwards, blocking properly...etc) and free sparring will be required if you want to be able to fight.
> 
> Sparring is great for lots of things but without the good padwork/partner drills, I've found it's not so good. You'd be surprised at how much you can spar without actually getting any better. If you can't or haven't tried to do something as a reflex in a drill, don't expect to be able to do it in free sparring.
> 
> General guidelines that work for me


Pads? We don't need no stinkin' pads.


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## Dinkydoo

Touch Of Death said:


> Pads? We don't need no stinkin' pads.


You can use your gloves as pads or just block instead if you like - I enjoy that. Kicks can be a bit.....eventful though!


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## crazydiamond

FriedRice said:


> Buy good headgear, like $80-100 that Boxers use,  and not the junk that many TMA schools train with, made by Century, Pro Force...   You are taking a lot of risks at your age with head shots...sparring, even with the agreed upon, light level, can spike to hard at times when people get mad....but it's true, getting hit pretty hard and often, is apart of real Self Defense training.



Thanks - I kind of agree with you.. but my instructor does not - he feels headgear encourages sparing partners to hit harder and the gear will not help then. This is the gear I got before I started the class -I have never got to use it. The again our sparing is not intense at this point and we have 16 oz gloves. But I may have another discussion with the instructor in the future. 

Boxing sparing is maybe once every 5 weeks (we do other sparing other weeks).

Headgear with Cheek and Chin Protection, MMA Headgear


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## Touch Of Death

crazydiamond said:


> Thanks - I kind of agree but my instructor does not - he feels headgear encourages sparing partners to hit harder and the gear will not help then. This is the gear I got before I started the class -I have never got to use it. The again our sparing is not intense at this point.
> 
> Headgear with Cheek and Chin Protection, MMA Headgear


They gotta toughen you up a little. A lot of pain is superficial, like hair pulling. It hurts, but did you die? Stuff. You need some contact conditioning, before you pad up. What if you forgot your gym bag, on the street?


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## drop bear

Bill Mattocks said:


> Is that the goal? And does sparring simulate reality? I am not at all certain that this has been proven to be the c



Dosent my techniques have the same effect in sparring as they do in self defence?


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## JowGaWolf

Bill Mattocks said:


> Sparring, even with moderate to heavy contact, is not fighting. It resembles fighting in some ways. It is similar to fighting. But fighting it is not.


 This is true but for the most part the only real difference between fighting and sparring is the intensity.  To keep students from trying to hit each other too hard.  I remind them that if a weak or slow punch makes contact, then a strong and fast punch will surely make contact.


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## Bill Mattocks

JowGaWolf said:


> This is true but for the most part the only real difference between fighting and sparring is the intensity.



 I disagree, if you are referring to the kind of fighting one is likely to encounter in a self-defense situation or a typical barroom brawl. I have never encountered a so-called real life situation that resembled sparring in any way other than there were fists involved.


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## JowGaWolf

Technique is technique.  do you throw a punch in a barroom differently than you throw a punch in sparring? Or is it the same punch at a higher intensity?


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## Bill Mattocks

JowGaWolf said:


> Technique is technique.  do you throw a punch in a barroom differently than you throw a punch in sparring? Or is it the same punch at a higher intensity?



I throw a different punch when my feet are slipping under me in blood, when I have a kabar embedded in my flak jacket, when I'm trying to punch a guy whose buddy has one of my arms in a half-assed wristlock, when I'm kneeling on the desert sand with a steel helmet banging  me on the bridge of my nose, and so on.

In other words, I threw what I could and technique be damned. I also used mace, a maglite, and a night stick at various times. I have hit people on the head with a 45. Whatever it took.

The only time anyone ever tried to square off with me it was a fake, his buddies tackled me from the side and I got a good head kicking for being foolish.

And although that was all long before I ever started training, and I have excellent techniques now (bragging), I am not convinced that sparring is the reason for it. I'm sure it didn't hurt.


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## Bill Mattocks

And now that you've got me thinking about it, I realize that I never learned to testicle grab sparring, or knee in the face, eye gouge, eardrum slap, or hyper extend elbows sparring. I did learn in the dojo though. I did not develop my punch sparring, but on the heavy bag and with a willing (and pain tolerant) uke. The stances and transitions I've learned, I have used sparring, but I didn't learn them there. 

Sparring is great. I've learned a lot doing it. It does not resemble any fight I've ever been in. I'm not a badass, I didn't grow up streetfighting. I had a job where trained Marines tried to kick my *** and occasionally tried to kill me no fooling, and I had to deal with it. I gained a small level of understanding that a real fight is chaos.


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## drop bear

Bill Mattocks said:


> I disagree, if you are referring to the kind of fighting one is likely to encounter in a self-defense situation or a typical barroom brawl. I have never encountered a so-called real life situation that resembled sparring in any way other than there were fists involved.



Yet a lot of people do.  Bjjers jump guard and sub people.  Boxers punch guys in the head.  Tkders drop people with kicks. People self defence in a reflection of their style of fighting

They are not all just closing their eyes and swing for the rafters 
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...xmKJy6cVwcU4ep-lA&sig2=dEJ-HnpxxSbmXeFUIebaUQ


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## JowGaWolf

Bill Mattocks said:


> I realize that I never learned to testicle grab sparring, or knee in the face, eye gouge, eardrum slap, or hyper extend elbows sparring. I did learn in the dojo though. I did not develop my punch sparring, but on the heavy bag and with a willing (and pain tolerant) uke. The stances and transitions I've learned, I have used sparring, but I didn't learn them there.


  I do all of these in sparring to a certain extent.  Testicle grabs for me are a combination of conditioning the hand and improving grip strength and technique.  In sparring I target the groin as if I was going to grab or strike the groin but I never make contact, knees to the face we do the same way. This allows me to throw my knee as if I was going to knee the face and it gives my sparring partner the opportunity to block the knee that is coming to his face, eye gouge we do at distance so that the fingers aren't close to the face.  We do eardum slaps as well but do not target the ear (we target the cheek) unfortunately we hyper extend elbows during sparring but it's not done full force.  I recently hyper extended my sparring partners elbow after caught his punch.  He tried to remove his arm so I locked it, when he couldn't escape he tried to punch me with the other hand, which at I responded by increasing pressure on his elbow until he stopped his attack.  A real fight situation would have just been more intense and the pressure would have be quickly done instead of gradually done.

Punching for me works like this. Pads and heavy bags develop conditioning.  Sparring develops technique because I have to know how to throw punches in the context of someone punching back at me or trying to take me to the ground.  A heavy bag can tell me if my opponent is watching my eyes to determine when and where I'm going to throw a punch.  A heavy bag can't force me to change strategy when my initial game plan doesn't work.  A heavy bag can't attack me or put me in a bad situation.

All of the techniques that I drill are eventually done in the context of fighting via sparring.  This includes 2 vs 1 sparring and sparring against other fighting systems. Drilling techniques is not the same way as using techniques in contact sparring and without the sparring, a person isn't going to be able to utilize those techniques in the context of fighting.  In my school the students who spar are significantly better at reading attacks and defending against attacks. 

I'm not saying this is a right or wrong case, I just wanted to share a little of how sparring is done in my school.


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## Bill Mattocks

Sorry, deleting my reply. Taking me places I don't want visit again. Think what you want about the efficacy of sparring. Perhaps you're right. I'm done.


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## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Dosent my techniques have the same effect in sparring as they do in self defence?


No


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## Flying Crane

JowGaWolf said:


> Technique is technique.  do you throw a punch in a barroom differently than you throw a punch in sparring? Or is it the same punch at a higher intensity?


It is different.  In sparring I am holding back.  That makes delivery very different on fundamental levels.


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## Paul_D

JowGaWolf said:


> Technique is technique.  do you throw a punch in a barroom differently than you throw a punch in sparring? Or is it the same punch at a higher intensity?


No, it's not the same punch at all.  Boxers throw punches differently.   When they argue at a press conference and it descends into a brawl does it look anything like the skilled exchange of a boxing match?  

They aren't stood in the same stance for a start, as they usually grab hold of each other, it's just wild fists flailing.  So boxers punch differently in a brawl than they do in training.


----------



## drop bear

Paul_D said:


> No, it's not the same punch at all.  Boxers throw punches differently.   When they argue at a press conference and it descends into a brawl does it look anything like the skilled exchange of a boxing match?
> 
> They aren't stood in the same stance for a start, as they usually grab hold of each other, it's just wild fists flailing.  So boxers punch differently in a brawl than they do in training.


https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...K-1PJs9EP_3O_Y0bA&sig2=qhdrslsJfRQddYHn_YHsQg


----------



## Paul_D

drop bear said:


> https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=intent://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L4bF30OyR4#Intent;scheme=http;package=com.google.android.youtube;S.browser_fallback_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D0L4bF30OyR4;S.android.intent.extra.REFERRER_NAME=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com.au;launchFlags=0x8080000;end&ved=0ahUKEwj4__ObmLjKAhVBGpQKHQUlDVsQjjgIHzAB&usg=AFQjCNFpN7D4gDWyKK-1PJs9EP_3O_Y0bA&sig2=qhdrslsJfRQddYHn_YHsQg




"The address wasn't understood"


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> No



So when I punch a guy in the face in sparring and I punch a guy in the face in self defence. What do you think is the difference?


----------



## drop bear

Paul_D said:


> "The address wasn't understood"



Yeah something weird is going on with the links at the moment. Anyway it was a guy using boxing in a street fight.

It happens.


----------



## Paul_D

drop bear said:


> So when I punch a guy in the face in sparring and I punch a guy in the face in self defence. What do you think is the difference?


Self defence doesn't take place at sparring distance for one.


----------



## Paul_D

drop bear said:


> Yeah something weird is going on with the links at the moment. Anyway it was a guy using boxing in a street fight.
> 
> It happens.


No worries ;-)

So does this, which proves the point that throwing a punch in training is not (necessarily) equal to throwing a punch for real.


----------



## drop bear

Paul_D said:


> No worries ;-)
> 
> So does this, which proves the point that throwing a punch in training is not (necessarily) equal to throwing a punch for real.



If it is a sometimes thing then it s a different point. Sometimes boxers brawl. But that is in and out of the ring.


----------



## Paul_D

drop bear said:


> If it is a sometimes thing then it s a different point. Sometimes boxers brawl. But that is in and out of the ring.



JOGAWOLF stated that:-
Technique is technique. do you throw a punch in a barroom differently than you throw a punch in sparring? Or is it the same punch at a higher intensity?

My post was the explanation why punches are thrown differently in bars than they are sparring.  I just chose boxers as their sparring and their brawling is the most dramatic example of this difference.


----------



## drop bear

Paul_D said:


> JOGAWOLF stated that:-
> Technique is technique. do you throw a punch in a barroom differently than you throw a punch in sparring? Or is it the same punch at a higher intensity?
> 
> My post was the explanation why punches are thrown differently in bars than they are sparring.  I just chose boxers as their sparring and their brawling is the most dramatic example of this difference.



Some boxers might. Some don't. For mma the lines are blurred a bit more because you can clinch and strike. Which you can't do in boxing.

If you look at guys like mark hunt. They street fight in the cage. 

So what jow had said could still be correct that he dose the same stuff in training as in a street fight. I certainly do.


----------



## drop bear

Paul_D said:


> Self defence doesn't take place at sparring distance for one.



Never happens at sparring distance. Is this a rule I don't know about?

How about this. I create a sparring distance so that I don't get my head punched in trying to trade in the pocket.


----------



## Paul_D

drop bear said:


> Some boxers might. Some don't. For mma the lines are blurred a bit more because you can clinch and strike. Which you can't do in boxing.
> 
> If you look at guys like mark hunt. They street fight in the cage.
> 
> So what jow had said could still be correct that he dose the same stuff in training as in a street fight. I certainly do.


But Mark Hunt can't street fight when someone grabs him and is pushing/pulling and wildly flailing fists at you.  Having a drunken idiot in a bar grab your and push/pull changes your posture, and has no relevance to what you do in the cage.


----------



## Paul_D

drop bear said:


> trying to trade in the pocket.


You are confusing fighting and self defence.


----------



## drop bear

Paul_D said:


> You are confusing fighting and self defence.



Oh. So self defence has the rule that all fights have to start and end in the pocket but fighting dosent.

You know you can move back when a person comes towards you? You don't have to be lips to lips with a guy hoping you will be able to catch that first punch he throws.

If you looked at self defence tactically you can take the fight to a place where you feel comfortable fighting the guy. 

You never saw the cheesy surviving edged weapons video? Create space put a barrier in between you and the threat. Then you are in sparring range.


----------



## drop bear

Paul_D said:


> But Mark Hunt can't street fight when someone grabs him and is pushing/pulling and wildly flailing fists at you.  Having a drunken idiot in a bar grab your and push/pull changes your posture, and has no relevance to what you do in the cage.



You are not serious. Are you? Regardless of whether or not you are mark hunt. (Becaue he is a big strong guy who is going to punch your head off your shoulders )Grabbing pushing and pulling is exactly what you do in the cage to break the other guys posture.


----------



## Paul_D

drop bear said:


> Oh. So self defence has the rule that all fights have to start and end in the pocket but fighting dosent.
> .


Again you are talking about fighting and self defence as though they were they same thing.  They are not.


----------



## drop bear

Paul_D said:


> Again you are talking about fighting and self defence as though they were they same thing.  They are not.



OK. Why does creating space work for fighting and not self defence?


----------



## Paul_D

drop bear said:


> OK. Why does creating space work for fighting and not self defence?


My reply was to your first sentence:-

_So self defence has the rule that all fights have to start and end in the pocket but fighting dosent._

You start with "self defence" and then start taking about "fighting".

I didn't bother reading any more as it is clear you are unable to understand the difference, and we can;t discuss the finer points when we are talking at cross purposes.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> So when I punch a guy in the face in sparring and I punch a guy in the face in self defence. What do you think is the difference?


Intent. 
That changes everything, including the physical delivery of the technique and the results on the other guy, which change how the encounter may develop and evolve and end.


----------



## FriedRice

Paul_D said:


> But Mark Hunt can't street fight when someone grabs him and is pushing/pulling and wildly flailing fists at you.  Having a drunken idiot in a bar grab your and push/pull changes your posture, and has no relevance to what you do in the cage.



Haha, if some drunken idiot grabs Mark Hunt in a bar, grabbing and push/pull him....that drunken idiot is dead meat in a million ways. It's so easy for me to beat up untrained dumbasses in the street as a fighter, let alone drunken ones. But here, you're talking about MARK FARGIN HUNT, and you think that he'd be a helpless little girl b/c he doesn't train your SD magic?


----------



## Flying Crane

Who is mark hunt?  Should I have heard of him?


----------



## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> Who is mark hunt?  Should I have heard of him?


Mike Hunt's brother.


----------



## Andrew Green

Bill Mattocks said:


> And does sparring simulate reality?



Some degree of reality yes.  

"Real life" fighting comes in many forms, sparring simulates whatever you want.  Most of the time this is designed around 1-on-1 unarmed fights.  That's not the only form of sparring though.  Sparring in fencing would prepare you better for a sword fight then not sparring.  Sparring with sticks for a stick fight.  You can do 2-on-1 sparring... there is / was even a promotion somewhere that promoted 5-on-5 fights, and another I think that did 3-on-3 in a obstacle course like environment.  Military training often involves exercises designed to simulate a real battlefield, which is essentially a form of "sparring" with different words used for it.

At the end of the day nothing is ever going to give you reality though.  Some people are going to freeze up, panic, etc. as soon as the safeties are turned off or a situation happens that wasn't planned.

At the end of the day I don't think most of us are "really" preparing for a real situation, most people don't get into those.  The people that do it's going to matter more for though, and for them sparring should resemble reality as much as possible.  Which a lot of the time is going to mean more situational sparring, but still sparring.


----------



## pgsmith

drop bear said:


> So when I punch a guy in the face in sparring and I punch a guy in the face in self defence. What do you think is the difference?


  In sparring, the other fellow is not trying to kill you. I've never been in a fight defending myself where the other fellow wasn't trying to kill me.


----------



## FriedRice

Touch Of Death said:


> Mike Hunt's brother.



You've never seen Mike Hunt.


----------



## drop bear

pgsmith said:


> In sparring, the other fellow is not trying to kill you. I've never been in a fight defending myself where the other fellow wasn't trying to kill me.



How does that effect what I do?


----------



## pgsmith

drop bear said:


> How does that effect what I do?



  If you cannot tell the difference between someone trying to kill you and sparring, I am happy to never have had to spar with you since many of your sparring partners have undoubtedly been seriously injured.. 

  Sorry, I can't educate you any further on that.


----------



## drop bear

pgsmith said:


> If you cannot tell the difference between someone trying to kill you and sparring, I am happy to never have had to spar with you since many of your sparring partners have undoubtedly been seriously injured..
> 
> Sorry, I can't educate you any further on that.




Let me guess what you said sounded good but breaks down on the technicalitys?

Do you think i f I punch someone and they fall over. That was because they did not want to kill me?


----------



## Touch Of Death

FriedRice said:


> You've never seen Mike Hunt.


It is just common knowledge that, if you mess with Mark Hunt, you are messing with Mike Hunt.


----------



## FriedRice

pgsmith said:


> In sparring, the other fellow is not trying to kill you. I've never been in a fight defending myself where the other fellow wasn't trying to kill me.



What's the difference between an MMA fighter throwing a full power punch, with everything he's got....right into his opponent's face in trying to knock him the freak out in the cage/ring......vs. this same MMA fighter throwing a full power punch, with everything he's got.....right into your face to knock you the freak out, in the street?

Answer:  It's going to be a lot easier for him to knock you the F out with just one punch, vs. him trying to do the same to a REAL fighter, of his equal, in the ring/cage. Once you're knocked the F out, and you're unconscious body is lying on the cement....your life is at the mercy of this MMA fighter. He can go home or wait for the police or stomp on your head  until it cracks, brains oozes out and you die and he goes to jail for life or executed by the State.  That is if you haven't died yet from getting KO'ed in the street and your head cracks open from dropping on the concrete. Or maybe just coma, concussion or full paralysis. 

Also, unless some attacker in the street, announces that he will be "trying to kill you", it would require true mind reading abilities to know this while it's happening. Otherwise, it's usually just a fist fight where both guys swings wild haymakers all over the place. Who do you think will be better in this situation? Someone who spars hard (often enough, but not always) and used to their partner trying to KO them for real?  Or someone who spars light and pretend striking at nutsacks, etc. and completely afraid of sparring hard for KO's?


----------



## Bill Mattocks

I think an awfully lot of people in this thread have never been in a fistfight outside of a controlled environment, or they've forgotten what it was like if they did.  Perhaps on the schoolyard back in the short pants days, we squared up and traded punches in a more-or-less dignified manner, punctuated by the bell ringing to call us back into the classroom.  But I have never, and I am sorry I have to keep insisting on this, NEVER been in a real honest-to-goodness fight where one or more guys was seriously trying to end me, that looked ANYTHING like sparring.  I think anyone who still doesn't get that needs to go to a local bar, make some insulting remarks about somebody's girlfriend, and then challenge them to do something about it when they take exception.  That is a fight.  Then tell us how much it resembles what you do in a tournament.


----------



## FriedRice

Touch Of Death said:


> It is just common knowledge that, if you mess with Mark Hunt, you are messing with Mike Hunt.



Nobody messes with Mike Hunt.


----------



## FriedRice

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think an awfully lot of people in this thread have never been in a fistfight outside of a controlled environment, or they've forgotten what it was like if they did.  Perhaps on the schoolyard back in the short pants days, we squared up and traded punches in a more-or-less dignified manner, punctuated by the bell ringing to call us back into the classroom.  But I have never, and I am sorry I have to keep insisting on this, NEVER been in a real honest-to-goodness fight where one or more guys was seriously trying to end me, that looked ANYTHING like sparring.  I think anyone who still doesn't get that needs to go to a local bar, make some insulting remarks about somebody's girlfriend, and then challenge them to do something about it when they take exception.  That is a fight.  Then tell us how much it resembles what you do in a tournament.



I'd love to do this, unfortunately I have a job, assets and a clean criminal record. Knocking out people in the street can cause serious injuries, paralysis or even death. And this can happen with just ONE punch or kick.

The closest thing that I get to this happy fun times, is to let new people who tries out our class to throw any kind of strikes they want and at full power at me, and I only defend. Most don't even touch me. And I'm a nobody, ammy fighter.   Kind of like this:


----------



## drop bear

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think an awfully lot of people in this thread have never been in a fistfight outside of a controlled environment, or they've forgotten what it was like if they did.  Perhaps on the schoolyard back in the short pants days, we squared up and traded punches in a more-or-less dignified manner, punctuated by the bell ringing to call us back into the classroom.  But I have never, and I am sorry I have to keep insisting on this, NEVER been in a real honest-to-goodness fight where one or more guys was seriously trying to end me, that looked ANYTHING like sparring.  I think anyone who still doesn't get that needs to go to a local bar, make some insulting remarks about somebody's girlfriend, and then challenge them to do something about it when they take exception.  That is a fight.  Then tell us how much it resembles what you do in a tournament.



OK. But you are not the definition of fighting.

I have been squared off on guys in street fights before. I now create that environment because there are a few reasons why it is a bit safer for me.

I can choose to do either. This toe to toe sug fest it not always forced on me.

This is so I can use the methods that I have learned in sparring to defend myself. That way I am not wasting my time training.


----------



## drop bear

I mean does nobody know how to exit out of a striking combination or why you do it?


----------



## Bill Mattocks

FriedRice said:


> I'd love to do this, unfortunately I have a job, assets and a clean criminal record. Knocking out people in the street can cause serious injuries, paralysis or even death. And this can happen with just ONE punch or kick.
> 
> The closest thing that I get to this happy fun times, is to let new people who tries out our class to throw any kind of strikes they want and at full power at me, and I only defend. Most don't even touch me. And I'm a nobody, ammy fighter.   Kind of like this:



That's cute.  Wait until one of them tells you he doesn't want to fight, turns away, and then sucker punches you.  Or waits until you turn away and kicks you square in the balls from behind or breaks a bar stool over your head.  Or has his buddies grab your arms from the sides; you didn't even know they were his friends until they grab you and then he coldcocks you.  Or he lowers his head and charges you and the barroom is so crowded you can't evade.  Or etc etc etc.  All I'm saying is that you are imagining what a fight must be like.  It's not.  You say you don't want to find out what one is like.  That's cool.  But you don't know what you don't know.  That could be a problem.

All I keep reading is basically this:

I don't know what real fighting is, but I imagine it is like sparring, only harder, so I practice sparring really hard and I am covered.  It's not and you're not.


----------



## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> I mean does nobody know how to exit out of a striking combination or why you do it?


I am a choir member.


----------



## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> I am a choir member.



Not that there is anything wrong with that.


----------



## drop bear

Bill Mattocks said:


> That's cute.  Wait until one of them tells you he doesn't want to fight, turns away, and then sucker punches you.  Or waits until you turn away and kicks you square in the balls from behind or breaks a bar stool over your head.  Or has his buddies grab your arms from the sides; you didn't even know they were his friends until they grab you and then he coldcocks you.  Or he lowers his head and charges you and the barroom is so crowded you can't evade.  Or etc etc etc.  All I'm saying is that you are imagining what a fight must be like.  It's not.  You say you don't want to find out what one is like.  That's cool.  But you don't know what you don't know.  That could be a problem.
> 
> All I keep reading is basically this:
> 
> I don't know what real fighting is, but I imagine it is like sparring, only harder, so I practice sparring really hard and I am covered.  It's not and you're not.



This discussion will go better if you dont invent stuff.


----------



## FriedRice

Bill Mattocks said:


> That's cute.



"Danger" is my middle name. My first is "Stranger".



> Wait until one of them tells you he doesn't want to fight, turns away, and then sucker punches you.



Sounds like a spinning strike that just needs to be defended against or countered, been there done that.



> Or waits until you turn away and kicks you square in the balls from behind or breaks a bar stool over your head.



Yeah, I always turn around w/my back completely towards someone who was just a moment ago, said that he was going to "kill and rape" me, which actually is quite merciful if you think about it consididering I won't feel the 2nd part of such dual atrocities towards another man.



> Or has his buddies grab your arms from the sides; you didn't even know they were his friends until they grab you and then he coldcocks you.



How come, in all of these SD situations, I'm always alone? Why can't I have friends to watch my back or be a wingman, while cruising for babes? I'm so lonely.



> Or he lowers his head and charges you and the barroom is so crowded you can't evade.



Say hi to the Muay Thai Plum, then the twins...knee #1 and knee #2, then say high to the twins again and again until everything goes bright then dark. This actually happens a lot, but an equally trained MMA fighter would know proper head placement during the entry for, most likely, a takedown attempt...to not get kneed or guillotined....and he's going to be way faster and explosive, vs. fatboy at a bar.



> Or etc etc etc.  All I'm saying is that you are imagining what a fight must be like.  It's not.  You say you don't want to find out what one is like.  That's cool.  But you don't know what you don't know.  That could be a problem.
> 
> All I keep reading is basically this:
> 
> I don't know what real fighting is, but I imagine it is like sparring, only harder, so I practice sparring really hard and I am covered.  It's not and you're not.



Sounds like you've never been in many street fights and just making a lot of this up, which is standard for SD classes. Sure they could happen, but knocking someone the F out, solves a lot of problems...anywhere. I've been in many street fights actually,  I'd just rather not incriminate myself (although I was mostly a minor then). Mostly when I was not a trained & experienced fighter too. But now, I especially don't go out looking for fights   as I'll get prosecuted by the State and most likely get sued in civil courts afterward, once they find out that I'm a trained fighter.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Paul_D said:


> No, it's not the same punch at all.  Boxers throw punches differently.   When they argue at a press conference and it descends into a brawl does it look anything like the skilled exchange of a boxing match?
> 
> They aren't stood in the same stance for a start, as they usually grab hold of each other, it's just wild fists flailing.  So boxers punch differently in a brawl than they do in training.


 Self Defense situation




He got hit with a hook.  The same technique type of punch used in boxing

See hook at mark 18


----------



## JowGaWolf

Paul_D said:


> Self defence doesn't take place at sparring distance for one.


Sometimes it does. There are many fights that have started with someone being verbally abusive and moving towards the person.  Not every self-defense situation begins with an unexpected attack.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

You imagine how fights work, you have all the answers.  Good luck to you.  Later.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Paul_D said:


> No worries ;-)
> 
> So does this, which proves the point that throwing a punch in training is not (necessarily) equal to throwing a punch for real.


You can see the Lews throw a right cross at Mike Tyson

You can clearly see what type of punches are being thrown





The shape and form of some techniques are flexible.  A hook can be thrown short or long, it can be thrown while rooted or while moving. A hook can be thrown as a lead hood or rear hook.  The technique of throwing the hook is going to be the same or close to being the same in each case.  What changes is how the power is generated.  A moving hook does not generate power the same way a person would generate power for a hook while standing still.

A boxing technique doesn't have to look like what we see in the boxing ring for it to be a boxing technique.


----------



## MartialMasters

Any Art consists of Theory and Practice.

Some people excel in (and prefer working with) one more than the other.
Some theories and some practices are better and worse than others.

Anything that helps you grow in either regard is "good", but there is also no such thing as a perfect artist. Even monkeys fall out of trees.

So, nothing is guaranteed to make you "good"...and there is no perfect practice or theory, but I'm certainly a fan of trying to develop a good sense of both, which means study, training, different kinds of sparring, etc.


----------



## Ironbear24

A guy slapped me across the face, I kicked him in the face and his lips were busted. That's self defense, was real fighting. Good game folks, kenpo helped me do that.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think an awfully lot of people in this thread have never been in a fistfight outside of a controlled environment, or they've forgotten what it was like if they did.  Perhaps on the schoolyard back in the short pants days, we squared up and traded punches in a more-or-less dignified manner, punctuated by the bell ringing to call us back into the classroom.  But I have never, and I am sorry I have to keep insisting on this, NEVER been in a real honest-to-goodness fight where one or more guys was seriously trying to end me, that looked ANYTHING like sparring.  I think anyone who still doesn't get that needs to go to a local bar, make some insulting remarks about somebody's girlfriend, and then challenge them to do something about it when they take exception.  That is a fight.  Then tell us how much it resembles what you do in a tournament.


How many of us still throw punches like the first punch that we ever threw? We don't, the reason why we don't is because we learned how to punch a certain way which is more effective.   Once we learn the technique to punching, kicking, and moving, we never go back to how we punched when we were 6.

It's the same with sports,  once you learn how to do something, you don't go back to how you used to do it when you weren't skilled at it. Punching and kicking technique works the same way especially if you are fighting for your life.  You aren't going to fight like a 6 year old who has never punched or kicked before.  You are going to use the techniques that you have to the best of your ability.  If you can get a punch, kick, knee, shoot a gun, duck, move, hide, then you are going to do it to the best of your ability and it's going to be done with some sort of technique that you have learned.  

As for starting fight with someone, by insulting their girlfriend.  It wouldn't change the fact that I'm going to use some sort of technique to move, punch, defend, or attack.
Think of it this way.  Once a person learns the techniques of how to fight on the ground, they never go back to fighting like someone who doesn't know how to fight on the ground.
Swat team trains technique for entering a building,  why would they enter the building the same way as they would before they learned the technique.

Once you learn how to use a technique you tend to rely on that technique big time.  You might not think that you were using technique but I'm pretty sure without a doubt you were.  I know for a fact that all the fights that you have been in were at a higher skill and technique level than when you first learned how to punch and kick with technique.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Ironbear24 said:


> A guy slapped me across the face, I kicked him in the face and his lips were busted. That's self defense, was real fighting. Good game folks, kenpo helped me do that.


Funny, you didn't describe a kenpo reaction.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Flying Crane said:


> It is different.  In sparring I am holding back.  That makes delivery very different on fundamental levels.


no disagreement there.


----------



## Ironbear24

Touch Of Death said:


> Funny, you didn't describe a kenpo reaction.



There are no two karatekas that are the same. I am very different from most and my sifu often commented on that. Sometimes it was good, sometimes not so good as I was the black sheep of the dojo.


----------



## drop bear

Bill Mattocks said:


> You imagine how fights work, you have all the answers.  Good luck to you.  Later.



See.  This is stupid. Ok now i say the same thing back and we get nowhere. 

It is just the death of a sensible discussion.


----------



## drop bear

If your sparring does not look like your fighting. Then you need to fix your sparring.


----------



## Buka

Ironbear24 said:


> There are no two karatekas that are the same. I am very different from most and my sifu often commented on that. Sometimes it was good, sometimes not so good as I was the black sheep of the dojo.



Your next progression should be to become the black wolf of the dojo. Keep at it.


----------



## Ironbear24

Buka said:


> Your next progression should be to become the black wolf of the dojo. Keep at it.



I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.


----------



## FriedRice

Bill Mattocks said:


> You imagine how fights work, you have all the answers.  Good luck to you.  Later.



Now that's funny. You're the one who posted a laundry lists of What If's with your SD fantasy scenarios....I refuted each one of them, and now you accuse me of what you did?


----------



## drop bear

drop bear said:


> You are not serious. Are you? Regardless of whether or not you are mark hunt. (Becaue he is a big strong guy who is going to punch your head off your shoulders )Grabbing pushing and pulling is exactly what you do in the cage to break the other guys posture.




Mark hunt.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Ironbear24 said:


> There are no two karatekas that are the same. I am very different from most and my sifu often commented on that. Sometimes it was good, sometimes not so good as I was the black sheep of the dojo.


I kind of quit following this thread, but my two cents, is that my Kenpo training is for holding back in a fight. You just have to tell yourself, "Use Kenpo" or (You Art Here) and leave the fantasy for the TV. If your response is not part of the 154, you are thinking outside the box. That might sound like it will make you win, but the box was designed to help you win, and keep you safe. Consider it.


----------



## Touch Of Death

FriedRice said:


> Now that's funny. You're the one who posted a laundry lists of What If's with your SD fantasy scenarios....I refuted each one of them, and now you accuse me of what you did?


Bill is describing his Active Marine days. It only sounds fictional to non-military. LOL


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Mark hunt.


Snort...what...hmm?  Sorry, I wasn't paying attention...who? Why?


----------



## Ironbear24

Touch Of Death said:


> I kind of quit following this thread, but my two cents, is that my Kenpo training is for holding back in a fight. You just have to tell yourself, "Use Kenpo" or (You Art Here) and leave the fantasy for the TV. If your response is not part of the 154, you are thinking outside the box. That might sound like it will make you win, but the box was designed to help you win, and keep you safe. Consider it.



I'm sorry but I don't agree with this at all. Why should I hold back if someone attacks me? They obviously have no respect for me so I am not going to show them any at all, they are obviously trying to harm me for whatever the stupid reason may be whether it be for their pride or mugging ect.

This is the one time where I feel should never hold anything back, all it takes is one clean hit for me to go down and be in trouble so I need to watch out for that.

Keep in mind I also have no clue what the other person knows, for all I know he could be a martial artist too and if that's the case all the more reason to not hold back. I was told you never know what the other person knows or what they are capable of so treat all opponents as if they know more than you do.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Snort...what...hmm?  Sorry, I wasn't paying attention...who? Why?



There are some people who don't Spar properly who under pressure go to what is intuitive rather than what they have trained.

These people are under the mistaken belief that sparring dosent look the same as a self defence. Now it can and it can't. Mark hunt is a brawling fighter. His sparring (or competition in this case) looks like a street fight.

It is an example of how sparring methods reflect self defence methods. 

Now if you Spar realistically it will resembles what you would do in a self defence fight. So the issue is not sparring as a training tool but the kind of sparring that some people engage with and potential issues within the martial artist themselves.

You quite often see this when a martial artist is put under pressure. Either in sparring, competition or self defence.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Ironbear24 said:


> I'm sorry but I don't agree with this at all. Why should I hold back if someone attacks me? They obviously have no respect for me so I am not going to show them any at all, they are obviously trying to harm me for whatever the stupid reason may be whether it be for their pride or mugging ect.
> 
> This is the one time where I feel should never hold anything back, all it takes is one clean hit for me to go down and be in trouble so I need to watch out for that.
> 
> Keep in mind I also have no clue what the other person knows, for all I know he could be a martial artist too and if that's the case all the more reason to not hold back. I was told you never know what the other person knows or what they are capable of so treat all opponents as if they know more than you do.


I didn't say, "Hold back your intensity"!!!... (sighing and wondering why I try sometimes)


----------



## Ironbear24

Touch Of Death said:


> I didn't say, "Hold back your intensity"!!!... (sighing and wondering why I try sometimes)



I'm sorry. It's just it's internet and many things such as tone and context can get lost since body language and spoken tone are lost here.

I understand what you mean now. Prohibited the use of specific techniques such as thundering hammers and flashing mace which could very well kill someone or mail them, but do not pull back the intensity of your strikes.

I got it know.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> Keep in mind I also have no clue what the other person knows, for all I know he could be a martial artist too and if that's the case all the more reason to not hold back. I was told you never know what the other person knows or what they are capable of so treat all opponents as if they know more than you do.



That's why I always wear my TapOut shirts and camou pants to deter the situation.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Touch Of Death said:


> I didn't say, "Hold back your intensity"!!!... (sighing and wondering why I try sometimes)


What I'm trying to say is, trust in your art, or change the art.  And, who are you to change the art?


----------



## Touch Of Death

Ironbear24 said:


> I'm sorry. It's just it's internet and many things such as tone and context can get lost since body language and spoken tone are lost here.
> 
> I understand what you mean now. Prohibited the use of specific techniques such as thundering hammers and flashing mace which could very well kill someone or mail them, but do not pull back the intensity of your strikes.
> 
> I got it know.


No! I mean, only use Thundering Hammers and Flashing Mace, for God's sake!


----------



## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> What I'm trying to say is, trust in your art, or change the art.  And, who are you to change the art?




He is the guy who gets punched in the face if it dosent work for him.


----------



## FriedRice

crazydiamond said:


> Thanks - I kind of agree with you.. but my instructor does not - he feels headgear encourages sparing partners to hit harder and the gear will not help then. This is the gear I got before I started the class -I have never got to use it. The again our sparing is not intense at this point and we have 16 oz gloves. But I may have another discussion with the instructor in the future.
> 
> Boxing sparing is maybe once every 5 weeks (we do other sparing other weeks).
> 
> Headgear with Cheek and Chin Protection, MMA Headgear



If someone hits you too hard with your headgear, you really have to tell them to tone it down. There's no shame in this. Also, the headgear vibrates and distributes the impact, so it may feel like you're getting hit harder...it's kind of weird. I'm still not 100% on the debate about headgear helping or not. I get hit less, w/o the headgear due to better field of vision....the headgear increasing the size of target and it's nice and dry causing clean shots landed, unlike a sweaty head that can cause glancing shots and more misses.   But I will put on the headgear when sparring hard and especially vs. people that I know who usually beat me. With the headgear, I can clearly tell that I'm not as damaged the next day. My 1st headgear sucked (some TMA joint for $10 used, next $100 Everlast with the face bar, sucked too. The next 2 full face at $50/each Title, was ok. The $90 Fighting Sport one is the best so far. I can tell a big difference in protection.

Pure Boxing gyms knows this more than other arts, including MMA, because pure Boxers go hard more often than most. And they always wear headgear as it's mandatory in most Boxing gyms.


----------



## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> He is the guy who gets punched in the face if it dosent work for him.


Was it Kenpo? If not... FAIL!


----------



## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> Was it Kenpo? If not... FAIL!



Good point. Loosing with kempo is better than winning with your own stuff. By the way looking at kempo sparring you could just as easily mma that.


----------



## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> Good point. Loosing with kempo is better than winning with your own stuff. By the way looking at kempo sparring you could just as easily mma that.


I have plenty of brick walls, to talk to around here, but thanks for your input.


----------



## Tez3

Amateur boxing has stopped male boxers from wearing head guards, World Rugby has gone with an American study and concluded head guards do little to prevent concussion. The problem being that even wearing head 'protection' the brain still hits the skull which is what causes the damage. A hit to the head still rattles the brain however soft.

World Rugby Player Welfare - Putting Players First : 2009 - Does Padded Headgear Prevent Head Injury in Rugby Union Football?

New regulations banning head guards in male boxing

Boxing And Mixed Martial Arts Could Wreck Your Brain


----------



## Ironbear24

Touch Of Death said:


> No! I mean, only use Thundering Hammers and Flashing Mace, for God's sake!



I'm so confused


----------



## Touch Of Death

Ironbear24 said:


> I'm so confused


Limit yourself to good, safe, Kenpo, but do it really hard, and with any, or all the techniques... even if it kills them. How is that? I can't make it any plainer. SAFE being the key word, because if, anything goes, was such a good idea, they would tell you that.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> Amateur boxing has stopped male boxers from wearing head guards, World Rugby has gone with an American study and concluded head guards do little to prevent concussion. The problem being that even wearing head 'protection' the brain still hits the skull which is what causes the damage. A hit to the head still rattles the brain however soft.
> 
> World Rugby Player Welfare - Putting Players First : 2009 - Does Padded Headgear Prevent Head Injury in Rugby Union Football?
> 
> New regulations banning head guards in male boxing
> 
> Boxing And Mixed Martial Arts Could Wreck Your Brain


The way that they go at each others head wouldn't be allowed in my school.  Three's no reason why they should be trying to knock each others heads off.





Same with these kids.  





The way that we throw our punches utilized the weight of our body, we don't just punch with our arms so even our weakest punches are coming in with significant force when we connect our body to the punch.  I think other martial arts have a similar challenge where there's no way they can spar like these kids were sparring an not hurt someone regardless of if they have headgear on or not.


----------



## Tez3

It's not just the kids amateur boxing that have stopped head guards it's adults.  Studies have also shown that in boxing bouts the fighters are quite likely to be dehydrated from cutting weight which means the fluid around the brain is far less than normal leaving the brain unprotected. This is nearly always the case of jockeys in horse racing who sustain brain injuries from fall as they are constantly cutting weight, they of course wear hard helmets that you would imagine protect the brain better than martial arts/boxing head guards. It's the action of the brain hitting the skull that does the damage and there's nothing that can be done to actually protect the brain with anything like a head guard or bubble wrap.  
If you spar and do head shots, if you fight and do head shots with or without a head guard you are damaging your brain to a greater or lesser extent. If you get KOd there is damage.  People have to decide for themselves what risks they are willing to take doing martial arts or playing contact sports.


----------



## pgsmith

Tez3 said:


> If you spar and do head shots, if you fight and do head shots with or without a head guard you are damaging your brain to a greater or lesser extent. If you get KOd there is damage.  People have to decide for themselves what risks they are willing to take doing martial arts or playing contact sports.



  Hmmmm ... perhaps that explains some of the statements by those that rabidly believe in sparring.


----------



## FriedRice

JowGaWolf said:


> The way that they go at each others head wouldn't be allowed in my school.  Three's no reason why they should be trying to knock each others heads off.



This is just routine hard sparring at a Boxing gym. A lot of people in here always gets pissy when I told them that sparring for KO's doesn't just exist, but regularly (just not always or even mostly). There's light to medium sparring too that's happening regularly.



> The way that we throw our punches utilized the weight of our body, we don't just punch with our arms so even our weakest punches are coming in with significant force when we connect our body to the punch.



So you think Boxers  aren't doing the same thing. You think Boxers don't understand hip rotation, pivoting, shifting weight, and even the use of the shoulders to punch harder and faster? Mayweather made $180,000,000 for one fight and Pacquaio $120,000,000 for losing. You think with that much money on the line, tens of millions of dollars in resources and decades of developing a craft of a multi-billion dollar sport....and not to mention Worldwide fame and glory..... that they wouldn't be able to figure out what you know at your school in a strip mall? When was the last time that a TMA event paid over $20,000 for one fighter and the event was held in a real stadium and not some hotel ballroom?



> I think other martial arts have a similar challenge where there's no way they can spar like these kids were sparring an not hurt someone regardless of if they have headgear on or not.



You seem to think that there's some special powers that TMA's have that's completely unknown to Boxers and other sports fighter such as MMA. Even if most UFC fighters aren't even making 1/36,000th of what Mayweather's making for a fight, you think we don't know about techniques?

No, the problem with most other martial arts, meaning most of the TMA ones, is that you never spar this hard so you think it's Mortal Kombat 1, 2 and 3 or something when you see it. To put it bluntly, you're scared of it. You think people may die or something. But this is standard practice for fighting gyms and fighters. Not all who trains at such gyms, go this hard though, usually only the fighters or those who want to, would go this hard.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> This is just routine hard sparring at a Boxing gym. A lot of people in here always gets pissy when I told them that sparring for KO's doesn't just exist, but regularly (just not always or even mostly). There's light to medium sparring too that's happening regularly.
> 
> 
> 
> So you think Boxers  aren't doing the same thing. You think Boxers don't understand hip rotation, pivoting, shifting weight, and even the use of the shoulders to punch harder and faster? Mayweather made $180,000,000 for one fight and Pacquaio $120,000,000 for losing. You think with that much money on the line, tens of millions of dollars in resources and decades of developing a craft of a multi-billion dollar sport....and not to mention Worldwide fame and glory..... that they wouldn't be able to figure out what you know at your school in a strip mall? When was the last time that a TMA event paid over $20,000 for one fighter and the event was held in a real stadium and not some hotel ballroom?
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to think that there's some special powers that TMA's have that's completely unknown to Boxers and other sports fighter such as MMA. Even if most UFC fighters aren't even making 1/36,000th of what Mayweather's making for a fight, you think we don't know about techniques?
> 
> No, the problem with most other martial arts, meaning most of the TMA ones, is that you never spar this hard so you think it's Mortal Kombat 1, 2 and 3 or something when you see it. To put it bluntly, you're scared of it. You think people may die or something. But this is standard practice for fighting gyms and fighters. Not all who trains at such gyms, go this hard though, usually only the fighters or those who want to, would go this hard.



Why are you so upset? Calm down. In TMA we do spar very hard, but keep in mind we cannot do this all of the time because that would simply be unrealistic, many people in TMA wish to strive to become professional fighters and it would make zero sense to risk injurying yourself to such an extent (because accidents can and will happen).

That you have to put a halt in your training to recover from well, TRAINING. Many of us also do not like to use gear, this means if we go full contact, yes believe it or not. People could end up dead or seriously hurt, we train with no gear because gear is not going to be with you in a street fight.

Now sparring for the sake of training for sport is of course different, there are rules there to keep in mind and one of those rules is don't go full force, that applies to competitions too, they don't want you going full force even there.


----------



## Kenpoguy123

Ironbear24 said:


> I'm sorry. It's just it's internet and many things such as tone and context can get lost since body language and spoken tone are lost here.
> 
> I understand what you mean now. Prohibited the use of specific techniques such as thundering hammers and flashing mace which could very well kill someone or mail them, but do not pull back the intensity of your strikes.
> 
> I got it know.



Sorry but I personally don't believe that flashing mace or thundering hammers could kill someone. Thundering hammers is mainly attacks to the body and the knees and flashing mace uses a hammerfist and a back knuckle to the head. Those techniques may hurt a lot but I very very much doubt you could kill someone with those 2. Kenpo does have killing techniques backbreaker, leap of death etc but those 2 you listed probably won't


----------



## Tez3

I think the fact that FriedRice finds medical research 'funny' and is still chucking out insults about posters here says more about his seriousness and willingness to discuss a subject which has potential medical concerns for many martial artists and sportsmen.


----------



## JowGaWolf

FriedRice said:


> So you think Boxers aren't doing the same thing. You think Boxers don't understand hip rotation, pivoting, shifting weight, and even the use of the shoulders to punch harder and faster?


This statement right here tells me that you don't understand what I'm referring.  I don't pivot on the ball of my foot to generate power.  I don't don't rotate my hip to generate power, I use my waist.  I also don't use my shoulder to punch harder and faster.  So to answer your question no I don't think the majority of boxers are doing the same thing.



FriedRice said:


> You seem to think that there's some special powers that TMA's have that's completely unknown to Boxers and other sports fighter such as MMA


 Not once have I even said such a thing.



FriedRice said:


> is that you never spar this hard so you think it's Mortal Kombat 1, 2 and 3 or something when you see it. To put it bluntly, you're scared of it.


And yet know one who has sparred against me and has gotten a weak punch from me has any doubt that I have more power than what I'm giving and to this day no one has ever asked me to to hit them harder than those punches that came in solid.  



FriedRice said:


> Not all who trains at such gyms, go this hard though


 This is a good thing.


----------



## Ironbear24

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Sorry but I personally don't believe that flashing mace or thundering hammers could kill someone. Thundering hammers is mainly attacks to the body and the knees and flashing mace uses a hammerfist and a back knuckle to the head. Those techniques may hurt a lot but I very very much doubt you could kill someone with those 2. Kenpo does have killing techniques backbreaker, leap of death etc but those 2 you listed probably won't



A hammer fist to the back of the neck can kill someone because it can sever the connection to the brain.


----------



## Flying Crane

FriedRice said:


> This is just routine hard sparring at a Boxing gym. A lot of people in here always gets pissy when I told them that sparring for KO's doesn't just exist, but regularly (just not always or even mostly). There's light to medium sparring too that's happening regularly.
> 
> 
> 
> So you think Boxers  aren't doing the same thing. You think Boxers don't understand hip rotation, pivoting, shifting weight, and even the use of the shoulders to punch harder and faster? Mayweather made $180,000,000 for one fight and Pacquaio $120,000,000 for losing. You think with that much money on the line, tens of millions of dollars in resources and decades of developing a craft of a multi-billion dollar sport....and not to mention Worldwide fame and glory..... that they wouldn't be able to figure out what you know at your school in a strip mall? When was the last time that a TMA event paid over $20,000 for one fighter and the event was held in a real stadium and not some hotel ballroom?
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to think that there's some special powers that TMA's have that's completely unknown to Boxers and other sports fighter such as MMA. Even if most UFC fighters aren't even making 1/36,000th of what Mayweather's making for a fight, you think we don't know about techniques?
> 
> No, the problem with most other martial arts, meaning most of the TMA ones, is that you never spar this hard so you think it's Mortal Kombat 1, 2 and 3 or something when you see it. To put it bluntly, you're scared of it. You think people may die or something. But this is standard practice for fighting gyms and fighters. Not all who trains at such gyms, go this hard though, usually only the fighters or those who want to, would go this hard.


This is a really bizarre post.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> A hammer fist to the back of the neck can kill someone because it can sever the connection to the brain.



A standard punch in the head has killed people.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> Why are you so upset? Calm down. In TMA we do spar very hard, but keep in mind we cannot do this all of the time because that would simply be unrealistic, many people in TMA wish to strive to become professional fighters and it would make zero sense to risk injurying yourself to such an extent (because accidents can and will happen).
> 
> That you have to put a halt in your training to recover from well, TRAINING. Many of us also do not like to use gear, this means if we go full contact, yes believe it or not. People could end up dead or seriously hurt, we train with no gear because gear is not going to be with you in a street fight.
> 
> Now sparring for the sake of training for sport is of course different, there are rules there to keep in mind and one of those rules is don't go full force, that applies to competitions too, they don't want you going full force even there.



They want people going full force in our competitions.


----------



## Ironbear24

That's never going to happen. Competition is for sport, not to try and kill eachother. If they want full force then start your own underground kumite where the goal is to kill your opponent. Otherwise it will never happen. Even in "UFC" they do not use their full power and have respect for their opponents.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> Why are you so upset? Calm down.



Are you that sensitive to think that I was getting upset? You should take your own advice. 



> In TMA we do spar very hard, but keep in mind we cannot do this all of the time because that would simply be unrealistic, many people in TMA wish to strive to become professional fighters and it would make zero sense to risk injurying yourself to such an extent (because accidents can and will happen).



Show me where I said that no TMA ever sparred hard or that sparring hard should be "all the time". 



> That you have to put a halt in your training to recover from well, TRAINING. Many of us also do not like to use gear, this means if we go full contact, yes believe it or not. People could end up dead or seriously hurt, we train with no gear because gear is not going to be with you in a street fight.



I guess you haven't fought in the street nor the ring/cage much, if at all. MMA fighters understands the concept of not taking injuries more than you would, because we sometimes go hard while you don't.  MMA gloves is hardly anything, and we wear a cup and mouthguard in fights, that's it. Most TMA spar with a full Dog-Bite training suit on, and you still don't go hard. What's the different with you fighting in the street vs. an MMA fighter fighting in the street? You think we have no idea what to do w/o any gloves on?


----------



## FriedRice

JowGaWolf said:


> This statement right here tells me that you don't understand what I'm referring.  I don't pivot on the ball of my foot to generate power.  I don't don't rotate my hip to generate power, I use my waist.  I also don't use my shoulder to punch harder and faster.  So to answer your question no I don't think the majority of boxers are doing the same thing.



You're right, Boxers are doing it way better than you are with their techniques if all you're using is your waist. 



> And yet know one who has sparred against me and has gotten a weak punch from me has any doubt that I have more power than what I'm giving and to this day no one has ever asked me to to hit them harder than those punches that came in solid.



I guess this would depend on who you spar against.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> That's never going to happen. Competition is for sport, not to try and kill eachother. If they want full force then start your own underground kumite where the goal is to kill your opponent. Otherwise it will never happen. Even in "UFC" they do not use their full power and have respect for their opponents.



Oh LMAO......so with tens of millions of $$$$$$ and worldwide fame and glory on the line.....UFC fighters are really holding back all this time?  Then there's Mayweather who fought for $180,000,000 and Pacquaio for $120,000,000 for their ONE fight.  You must train with Tex.


----------



## Ironbear24

No I haven't been in many street fights and I take pride in that. That is a sign of me being a responsible adult and not someone who goes around acting all huffy and puffy.

I have only been in 2 street fights and they all ended in less than 30 seconds because I am striking full force. No gear. No protection padding and no holding back. I have not fought in a cage because my matches have been in a ring and no we did not wear a dog bite uniform, just gloves, not boxing gloves but very lightweight ones with open fingers for grappling.

Some headgear and a mouthpiece. That's it. Think outside of the octagon, because you are not some superior martial artist because you but yourself in one. You are seriously asking me what the difference would be in a street fight vs mma? 

Well for one if you drop gaurd, there are no rules prohibiting your opponent from jumping onto you with his full body weight or slamming the ball of his foot into your nuts. There are no rules to protect you against getting hit in the throat or your neck which would kill you.

Further more you seem to be contradicting your own statements because you say " when did I say TMA doesn't go hard?" 

Then you say "we in mma go hard when you  don't" so which is it then? Are you saying mma goes hard and TMA does not or are you saying they both do? Because you can't exactly claim both statements.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> Oh LMAO......so with tens of millions of $$$$$$ and worldwide fame and glory on the line.....UFC fighters are really holding back all this time?  Then there's Mayweather who fought for $180,000,000 and Pacquaio for $120,000,000 for their ONE fight.  You must train with Tex.



Believe it or not they do, imagine what would happen if someone died? How would this affect the fighters  reputation? Further more if they were not holding back then the fights would no way in hell last multiple rounds like they do. People would be out cold within a couple clean hits the head, doesn't matter who you are. 

Biology is biology and science is science no matter who you are. We are all made the same and an 800 psi punch to the side of the head is going to rattle your brain and knock you the hell out, or worse.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> I think the fact that FriedRice finds medical research 'funny' and is still chucking out insults about posters here says more about his seriousness and willingness to discuss a subject which has potential medical concerns for many martial artists and sportsmen.


I'm always surprised how many people underestimate the power behind a martial artist's punch.


FriedRice said:


> You're right, Boxers are doing it way better than you are with their techniques if all you're using is your waist.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess this would depend on who you spar against.


A hard hit to the head is a hard hit to the head regardless of who is doing it or receiving it. You can't condition your face


----------



## Ironbear24

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm always surprised how many people underestimate the power behind a martial artist's punch.
> 
> A hard hit to the head is a hard hit to the head regardless of who is doing it or receiving it. You can't condition your face



This what I always tell people who are new and think big muscle guys will always win fights. I myself am pretty big and muscular, but guess what? My face doesn't have those muscles and is just as vulnerable and is a weak point just like any one else's face.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> That's never going to happen. Competition is for sport, not to try and kill eachother. If they want full force then start your own underground kumite where the goal is to kill your opponent. Otherwise it will never happen. Even in "UFC" they do not use their full power and have respect for their opponents.



What do you mean full power?  For me that is defined as punching the guy as hard as you can as often as you can untill someone has to drag you off them.  Then give the guy a hug.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> A hard hit to the head is a hard hit to the head regardless of who is doing it or receiving it. You can't condition your face



You actually  sort of can.  Head movement is a component of the damage you recieve.  And that can be controlled with position and neck strength.


----------



## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> What do you mean full power?  For me that is defined as punching the guy as hard as you can as often as you can untill someone has to drag you off them.  Then give the guy a hug.



Fighting with the intent to kill them. What you explain is not that and is respectable fighting for sport.


----------



## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> You actually  sort of can.  Head movement is a component of the damage you recieve.  And that can be controlled with position and neck strength.



More or less yeah but it won't make that huge of a difference. A clean hit with a good follow through is going to do some damage.


----------



## JowGaWolf

FriedRice said:


> Boxers are doing it way better than you are with their techniques if all you're using is your waist.


Here's what I use when I generate my punch.  Force from pushing from by back leg + Force from Forward movement from the push from my leg (a minimum it's 200lbs of force) + Force of twisting from my waist + Force from arms = My Punch.     If I time my punch or pull my opponent into me then you can add + Force of me pulling my towards my fist.

You are right that there's nothing magical about Kung Fu but there's a lot of mechanics and "Force Multipliers" that are in martial arts that aren't in boxing.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> Fighting with the intent to kill them. What you explain is not that and is respectable fighting for sport.



You dont fight anyone with the intent to kill them.  You are supposed to be trying to stop them.

Otherwise intent to kill is a very superficial concept. To misquote rocky.

"it is not how hard you hit that is important. It is how hard you get hit and keep moving forwards.  That's how winning is done. "


----------



## Flying Crane

JowGaWolf said:


> Here's what I use when I generate my punch.  Force from pushing from by back leg + Force from Forward movement from the push from my leg (a minimum it's 200lbs of force) + Force of twisting from my waist + Force from arms = My Punch.     If I time my punch or pull my opponent into me then you can add + Force of me pulling my towards my fist.
> 
> You are right that there's nothing magical about Kung Fu but there's a lot of mechanics and "Force Multipliers" that are in martial arts that aren't in boxing.


I don't know what is or is not in a boxers punch.  I only know what is in mine and I'm satisfied with that.  

I've seen boxing footage that has left me unimpressed in terms of punching mechanics, yet as athletes they can certainly be effective with their punching.

I'm not an athlete of that same caliber as a top rated boxer.  Not by a long shot.  But the mechanics I use in punching still give me the tools to hit really hard.  So what I have works well for me, regardless of what others have and how well it works for them.  Those are independent issues.  The one does not affect the other.  How powerfully I can hit, using my methodology, in no way affects how powerfully someone else can hit using their methodology.  The one does not cancel out the other.  All I really care about is how well my stuff works for me.  And I don't much care what others might think of it.  

I think it's important to not forget these issues.  Otherwise the discussion devolves back into arguing over who has the biggest dick.

On that note, have I mentioned how big mine is?  I'd like to show it to you all... <unzips>


----------



## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> You dont fight anyone with the intent to kill them.  You are supposed to be trying to stop them.
> 
> Otherwise intent to kill is a very superficial concept. To misquote rocky.
> 
> "it is not how hard you hit that is important. It is how hard you get hit and keep moving forwards.  That's how winning is done. "



That's my point. Sane people don't go into any competition thinking I'm going to kill this s.o.b you fight with the intent to down them not kill them.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> Here's what I use when I generate my punch.  Force from pushing from by back leg + Force from Forward movement from the push from my leg (a minimum it's 200lbs of force) + Force of twisting from my waist + Force from arms = My Punch.     If I time my punch or pull my opponent into me then you can add + Force of me pulling my towards my fist.
> 
> You are right that there's nothing magical about Kung Fu but there's a lot of mechanics and "Force Multipliers" that are in martial arts that aren't in boxing.



Boxing isnt a fixed style. If you punch harder then you should be able to beat boxers at their own game.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> You actually  sort of can.  Head movement is a component of the damage you recieve.  And that can be controlled with position and neck strength.


  Head movement isn't the same as conditioning the face to take an impact.  Moving your head is an effort to get out of the way of a punch and not take it.  Neck strength is not face strength. 
Yeah this guy thought that he can condition the head to take a hit 





But life proved him wrong.  Guess what he doesn't do anymore.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> I don't know what is or is not in a boxers punch.  I only know what is in mine and I'm satisfied with that.
> 
> I've seen boxing footage that has left me unimpressed in terms of punching mechanics, yet as athletes they can certainly be effective with their punching.
> 
> I'm not an athlete of that same caliber as a top rated boxer.  Not by a long shot.  But the mechanics I use in punching still give me the tools to hit really hard.  So what I have works well for me, regardless of what others have and how well it works for them.  Those are independent issues.  The one does not affect the other.  How powerfully I can hit, using my methodology, in no way affects how powerfully someone else can hit using their methodology.  The one does not cancel out the other.  All I really care about is how well my stuff works for me.  And I don't much care what others might think of it.
> 
> I think it's important to not forget these issues.  Otherwise the discussion devolves back into arguing over who has the biggest dick.
> 
> On that note, have I mentioned how big mine is?  I'd like to show it to you all... <unzips>



The biggest dick is a good analogy because the question is easily answered. You can physically compare them. 

This is how sparring works.  Instead of trying to talk your way around a subject you rely on physical evidence.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> Head movement isn't the same as conditioning the face to take an impact.  Moving your head is an effort to get out of the way of a punch and not take it.  Neck strength is not face strength.
> Yeah this guy thought that he can condition the head to take a hit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But life proved him wrong.  Guess what he doesn't do anymore.



It is a component in the overall strategy designed to help yo be less bashed. Using only that component is questionable.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> The biggest dick is a good analogy because the question is easily answered. You can physically compare them.
> 
> This is how sparring works.  Instead of trying to talk your way around a subject you rely on physical evidence.


And as I say, I don't much care what you think about what I do.  You actually have no idea what i do.  Meh.


----------



## Tez3

Shaken Baby Syndrome, anyone familiar with it? It's when a baby is shaken and it's brain bounces off the skull backwards and forwards causing brain damage usually severe enough to cause haemorrhage and death. This is exactly what happens when you take a head shot., your brain hits the bone of your skull and then hits the other side. It's far from being a laughing matter. I put up the scientific links before this is still scientific but perhaps easier to read for those who think such things are funny.
What Really Happens to Your Brain When You Get Punched in the Head


----------



## Ironbear24

Tez3 said:


> Shaken Baby Syndrome, anyone familiar with it? It's when a baby is shaken and it's brain bounces off the skull backwards and forwards causing brain damage usually severe enough to cause haemorrhage and death. This is exactly what happens when you take a head shot., your brain hits the bone of your skull and then hits the other side. It's far from being a laughing matter. I put up the scientific links before this is still scientific but perhaps easier to read for those who think such things are funny.
> What Really Happens to Your Brain When You Get Punched in the Head



Yup this way not everybody spars full force all of the time. But apparently fried rice thinks boxers and mma people are invincible and immune to this kind of damage. Or maybe there is not much up there that can shake around?


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Boxing isnt a fixed style. If you punch harder then you should be able to beat boxers at their own game.


Winning in boxing has nothing to do with how hard you punch.  Only someone who doesn't understand fighting would even think that just because they can hit harder means that they can win a fight or "beat someone at their own game"

1.  A boxer can punch harder than me, I don't care because I don't box
2.  I'm not a boxer so why would I try to win a fight as one?  Why would a boxer try to win as a martial artist when he's not a martial artist?


----------



## Flying Crane

Tez3 said:


> Shaken Baby Syndrome, anyone familiar with it? It's when a baby is shaken and it's brain bounces off the skull backwards and forwards causing brain damage usually severe enough to cause haemorrhage and death. This is exactly what happens when you take a head shot., your brain hits the bone of your skull and then hits the other side. It's far from being a laughing matter. I put up the scientific links before this is still scientific but perhaps easier to read for those who think such things are funny.
> What Really Happens to Your Brain When You Get Punched in the Head


Sometimes you gotta step back and let people do to themselves what they will.

You can't idiot-proof the world.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Flying Crane said:


> I don't know what is or is not in a boxers punch.  I only know what is in mine and I'm satisfied with that.
> 
> I've seen boxing footage that has left me unimpressed in terms of punching mechanics, yet as athletes they can certainly be effective with their punching.
> 
> I'm not an athlete of that same caliber as a top rated boxer.  Not by a long shot.  But the mechanics I use in punching still give me the tools to hit really hard.  So what I have works well for me, regardless of what others have and how well it works for them.  Those are independent issues.  The one does not affect the other.  How powerfully I can hit, using my methodology, in no way affects how powerfully someone else can hit using their methodology.  The one does not cancel out the other.  All I really care about is how well my stuff works for me.  And I don't much care what others might think of it.
> 
> I think it's important to not forget these issues.  Otherwise the discussion devolves back into arguing over who has the biggest dick.
> 
> On that note, have I mentioned how big mine is?  I'd like to show it to you all... <unzips>


I never said boxers couldn't hit hard or don't hit hard
If you look at my previous posts, none of what you are mentioning is in my comments.  There is a lot of assumptions being made about what I said which is why the conversation had taken the course.  If you look back you can see where I'm talking about some non-pro boxers trying to hit each other hard in the head.  This whole thing about who is hitting harder didn't come from me. 

Then you made a comment about me only hitting with my waist so I posted how I generate my power so you don't have to guess about how I hit.  If you post how you draw your power for your punch then you'll see clearly that you we both may throw a jab, but how we put power into that jab is different.  That's just the mechanics of if, it's not a who hits harder issue for me as that all depends on who is throwing the punch.  But the mechanics of a punch is fairly consistent.


----------



## Flying Crane

JowGaWolf said:


> I never said boxers couldn't hit hard or don't hit hard
> If you look at my previous posts, none of what you are mentioning is in my comments.  There is a lot of assumptions being made about what I said which is why the conversation had taken the course.  If you look back you can see where I'm talking about some non-pro boxers trying to hit each other hard in the head.  This whole thing about who is hitting harder didn't come from me.
> 
> Then you made a comment about me only hitting with my waist so I posted how I generate my power so you don't have to guess about how I hit.  If you post how you draw your power for your punch then you'll see clearly that you we both may throw a jab, but how we put power into that jab is different.  That's just the mechanics of if, it's not a who hits harder issue for me as that all depends on who is throwing the punch.  But the mechanics of a punch is fairly consistent.


My comments weren't intended for you, tho your post was my springboard.  My views actually parallel yours fairly consistently.

The comment about you using your waist was not made by me.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Flying Crane said:


> My comments weren't intended for you, tho your post was my springboard.  My views actually parallel yours fairly consistently.
> 
> The comment about you using your waist was not made by me.


Sorry about Flying Crane.   I'll make sure that comment will get to the right person lol.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> And as I say, I don't much care what you think about what I do.  You actually have no idea what i do.  Meh.



Kind of hard to be on a discussion forum if you dont care about what other people do.  

I mean why do you bother?


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> Winning in boxing has nothing to do with how hard you punch.  Only someone who doesn't understand fighting would even think that just because they can hit harder means that they can win a fight or "beat someone at their own game"
> 
> 1.  A boxer can punch harder than me, I don't care because I don't box
> 2.  I'm not a boxer so why would I try to win a fight as one?  Why would a boxer try to win as a martial artist when he's not a martial artist?



If hard punching has no relevance then why bring it up?

For your question. You can pretty much box however you want. It isnt judged on looks.  You dont have to fight like a boxer.

Now why would a boxer fight like a martial artist?  Because he feels he is more successful that way.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Shaken Baby Syndrome, anyone familiar with it? It's when a baby is shaken and it's brain bounces off the skull backwards and forwards causing brain damage usually severe enough to cause haemorrhage and death. This is exactly what happens when you take a head shot., your brain hits the bone of your skull and then hits the other side. It's far from being a laughing matter. I put up the scientific links before this is still scientific but perhaps easier to read for those who think such things are funny.
> What Really Happens to Your Brain When You Get Punched in the Head



Says the person who is a referee for a combat sport.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> If hard punching has no relevance then why bring it up?
> 
> For your question. You can pretty much box however you want. It isnt judged on looks.  You dont have to fight like a boxer.
> 
> Now why would a boxer fight like a martial artist?  Because he feels he is more successful that way.


Here are my original comments about hitting hard from post #113  Notice my comment in red. It talks about the intensity at which they are trying to hit each other's head. Which reflects back to the damage that the head is taking.  You can clearly see and hear in both videos the impact of the glove as it hits the head. You can see how many times the head is absorbing the strike even when they hid being the gloves.  This is the danger that Tez3 has been speaking of.
"The way that they go at each others head wouldn't be allowed in my school. Three's no reason why they should be trying to knock each others heads off."

My comments in the blue was to highlight the difference between out students at my school spar vs how they were sparring in the video. For sparring at my school, we can't throw punches with the same intensity because of how we generate power and that even our weakest punches come in with a lot of force.  I literally can punch very hard without having to really punch with my arm.  It's like the same effort it takes to reach for a glass of water but landing with power.  
There's nothing magic about it.  Give it a try.  Hold your arm out straight then launch your entire body weight so that your fist collides with the target.  What you will notice is that you can ram your fist into the target without punching.  It will feel as hard as a punch but in reality you didn't punch. 
Bruce Lee demonstrated this ability with his famous 1 inch and 6 inch punch.  That force that he generated didn't come from doing a boxing swing.  Now add the force of a punch to this technique and the power of the punch multiplies.  Now imagine that hitting your head multiple times as shown in the video.  This should make it clear of the damage to the head that it causes.  This is the focus of my comments.  I used boxing videos because I know boxers take numerous impacts to the head
"The way that we throw our punches utilized the weight of our body, we don't just punch with our arms so even our weakest punches are coming in with significant force when we connect our body to the punch. I think other martial arts have a similar challenge where there's no way they can spar like these kids were sparring an not hurt someone regardless of if they have headgear on or not."


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> Here are my original comments about hitting hard from post #113  Notice my comment in red. It talks about the intensity at which they are trying to hit each other's head. Which reflects back to the damage that the head is taking.  You can clearly see and hear in both videos the impact of the glove as it hits the head. You can see how many times the head is absorbing the strike even when they hid being the gloves.  This is the danger that Tez3 has been speaking of.
> "The way that they go at each others head wouldn't be allowed in my school. Three's no reason why they should be trying to knock each others heads off."
> 
> My comments in the blue was to highlight the difference between out students at my school spar vs how they were sparring in the video. For sparring at my school, we can't throw punches with the same intensity because of how we generate power and that even our weakest punches come in with a lot of force.  I literally can punch very hard without having to really punch with my arm.  It's like the same effort it takes to reach for a glass of water but landing with power.
> There's nothing magic about it.  Give it a try.  Hold your arm out straight then launch your entire body weight so that your fist collides with the target.  What you will notice is that you can ram your fist into the target without punching.  It will feel as hard as a punch but in reality you didn't punch.
> Bruce Lee demonstrated this ability with his famous 1 inch and 6 inch punch.  That force that he generated didn't come from doing a boxing swing.  Now add the force of a punch to this technique and the power of the punch multiplies.  Now imagine that hitting your head multiple times as shown in the video.  This should make it clear of the damage to the head that it causes.  This is the focus of my comments.  I used boxing videos because I know boxers take numerous impacts to the head
> "The way that we throw our punches utilized the weight of our body, we don't just punch with our arms so even our weakest punches are coming in with significant force when we connect our body to the punch. I think other martial arts have a similar challenge where there's no way they can spar like these kids were sparring an not hurt someone regardless of if they have headgear on or not."



Dont know. Boxing ranges from being able to hit lightly to hitting hard.

If you have that issue start slow and work up to high intensity.

I dont think you punch harder than anybody else who does it for a living.


----------



## Tez3

Flying Crane said:


> Sometimes you gotta step back and let people do to themselves what they will.
> 
> You can't idiot-proof the world.



Oh I agree wholeheartedly, that's why I said before that we have to decide for ourselves what we are willing to risk, however no one should be ridiculed or called names because of the decision they make. Deciding not to do something doesn't mean they are afraid to do it or _that they can't_, merely that they don't want to.

Sparring to 'knock each other's block's off' isn't an indication of superior skill or spirit, it's just sparring to knock each other's block off.


----------



## crazydiamond

I don't have the experience yet, but again for me taking my martial art (a mixed martial art) for self defense...I appreciate the boxing parts of my art. As my instructor has mentioned that (old school punching) is most likely whats going to happen in the street.

Back to punching sparing concerns - I don't think I am going to condition my ability to take a hit to the head - but somewhat I am . I think to an extent everyone has a different jaw (ability to handle a punch). As a newbie -this has been about overcoming fear and feeling like I am not going to "shut down" or crumble completely if someone starts throwing punches.  Most of our regular class does not show up for sparing class out of fear they are going to get clocked. I get that completely. But I am not interested in taking this too far, I will never compete at my age, and not looking for a bar fight, its just for me about "enough" contact during sparing to get some muscle memory and emotional response conditioning and learn to defend better and control distance.   I think developmental sparing helps with this objective.

Thankfully I am in a Mixed martial art system and sparing class this week is stick fighting - and there I get to wear a helmet with no worries.  next week it will probably be some grappling.


----------



## Paul_D

crazydiamond said:


> As my instructor has mentioned that (old school punching) is most likely whats going to happen in the street.
> /QUOTE]
> It has to be born in mind though the damage that you can do to your hand, punch the head.  It's no good taking out the first guy and then yo have to deal with his mates with a broken hand.  I train heel palm for head strikes.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Says the person who is a referee for a combat sport.



And that has to do with what? I'm passing on scientifically valid information about what happens when your head gets hit, I've said that it is each individual's decision to make whether they participate in martial arts/sports that inflict head shots. If you know the facts then you can make an informed decision, I've not said whether I believe one should spar/fight with headshots or not so really your post is just another cheap shot at me.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Dont know. Boxing ranges from being able to hit lightly to hitting hard.
> 
> If you have that issue start slow and work up to high intensity.
> 
> I dont think you punch harder than anybody else who does it for a living.


I know I don't hit harder than anybody else who does it for a living.  By default many of the techniques in martial arts are more concerned about landing punches and strikes in specific areas more than they are about just hitting hard. Strikes to the joints, certain places on the head that would 1. be against the rules in a sporting event and 2. wouldn't be possible to actually hit with big boxing gloves on.


----------



## RTKDCMB

I am sure that I know plenty of women, children and old men that could spar the crap out of you.


----------



## RTKDCMB

FriedRice said:


> How come, in all of these SD situations, I'm always alone?


Maybe it's your personality?


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> If your sparring does not look like your fighting. Then you need to fix your sparring.


if your self defense starts to look like fighting then you need to fix your self defense.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> standard punch in the head has killed people.


Usually it was the fall that killed them.


----------



## Tez3

RTKDCMB said:


> Usually it was the fall that killed them.



Nearly always. We had a case just before Christmas here in the local town, the boyfriend and husband of a woman were fighting, bf punches husband, one punch,who went down and hit his head on the pavement, died. Another, a couple of years ago, a civilian chef at one of the barracks was out drinking got in a fight, one punch he went down and again hit his head and died. It's quite distressingly common.


----------



## Skaw

RTKDCMB said:


> I am sure that I know plenty of women, children and old men that could spar the crap out of you.



How often do you spar with children?


----------



## FriedRice

JowGaWolf said:


> Here's what I use when I generate my punch.  Force from pushing from by back leg + Force from Forward movement from the push from my leg (a minimum it's 200lbs of force) + Force of twisting from my waist + Force from arms = My Punch.     If I time my punch or pull my opponent into me then you can add + Force of me pulling my towards my fist.
> 
> You are right that there's nothing magical about Kung Fu but there's a lot of mechanics and "Force Multipliers" that are in martial arts that aren't in boxing.




First off, I really do like some of the very, technical stuff that you post up, but here, you are way, way, way out of line in trying to imply that you know how to punch better than Boxers. This is absolutely ridiculous. There's like a million videos on YouTube showing proper punching techniques just as good and better than yours.  

You think that Mayweather's ONE fight purse of $180,000,000 can't buy him 10,000 Kung-Fu guys like you to come train him on how to super-punch like you, if it was worthwhile for him? Boxing is a multi-billion dollar industry. When was the last time that a Kung-Fu tournament sold out a stadium rather than the usual, hotel ballroom venue + $5/entrance?


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> Believe it or not they do, imagine what would happen if someone died? How would this affect the fighters  reputation? Further more if they were not holding back then the fights would no way in hell last multiple rounds like they do. People would be out cold within a couple clean hits the head, doesn't matter who you are.



OMG, you never fought before have you? Here's a clue, the other guy ain't gonna stand still for you to hit him at full Fist of Fury like the way you do it vs. a bag or some other old guy holding a pad and thinking it'll kill someone for sure. 



> Biology is biology and science is science no matter who you are. We are all made the same and an 800 psi punch to the side of the head is going to rattle your brain and knock you the hell out, or worse.



After 20+ years of UFC's, the ghost of Fred Ettish still lives on.


----------



## FriedRice

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm always surprised how many people underestimate the power behind a martial artist's punch.
> 
> A hard hit to the head is a hard hit to the head regardless of who is doing it or receiving it. You can't condition your face



Like I said, it depends on who you spar against. Maybe if you spar Tex. But say a UFC fighter, ain't going to stand still because arthritis has set in, to let you Super Dragon punch him in the face and absorb the full force. Even the bottom of the barrel UFC fighter, who never even get  to fight on Free TV at the bottom of the fight card....for like $3,000-5,000.....will jack you up.....and the UFC signs up like 500+ fighters. Heck, even the average, local Pro Fighter who can't even make it to this #500 spot and be the lowest guy on the UFC roster..... you wouldn't even touch his face before he KO's you.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> And that has to do with what? I'm passing on scientifically valid information about what happens when your head gets hit, I've said that it is each individual's decision to make whether they participate in martial arts/sports that inflict head shots. If you know the facts then you can make an informed decision, I've not said whether I believe one should spar/fight with headshots or not so really your post is just another cheap shot at me.



 You have posted constantly the risks of head trauma without saying whether or not you should Spar makes you position clear.

That you post this information without disclosing that you are involved in exactly this activity is dishonest.

You have not given all the information so someone can make a decision. Because you did not explain your personal involvement. 

I have given the information that you are involved in this activity. So that people can make an informed decision.

If this was a discussion on riding bikes and all you posted was information on bike crashes.then you would not be giving accurate information even though technically you are giving facts.


----------



## FriedRice

drop bear said:


> What do you mean full power?  For me that is defined as punching the guy as hard as you can as often as you can untill someone has to drag you off them.  Then give the guy a hug.



I really thought I've heard some really wild stuff on TMA forums, but what he said about how Pro fighters who fights for tens of millions up to $180,000,000 like Mayweather.....and how he thinks that they never throw full power because it's a sport.....when all that money, fame and glory is on the line.....I think this is the most delusional thing I've heard, ever. Hell, some guy fighting his first fight for free, will always throw everything he has and the kitchen sink, in trying to really kill the other guy.


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> if your self defense starts to look like fighting then you need to fix your self defense.



Not if it looks like you are winning.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> Yup this way not everybody spars full force all of the time. But apparently fried rice thinks boxers and mma people are invincible and immune to this kind of damage. Or maybe there is not much up there that can shake around?



Show me where I said any of this, otherwise you're a liar and made all of this up.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> I know I don't hit harder than anybody else who does it for a living.  By default many of the techniques in martial arts are more concerned about landing punches and strikes in specific areas more than they are about just hitting hard. Strikes to the joints, certain places on the head that would 1. be against the rules in a sporting event and 2. wouldn't be possible to actually hit with big boxing gloves on.



So OK. If you sparred with gloves on and had rules it would reduce the danger of hurting people in training.

Which is of course why they are there in the first place.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> You have posted constantly the risks of head trauma without saying whether or not you should Spar makes you position clear.
> 
> That you post this information without disclosing that you are involved in exactly this activity is dishonest.
> 
> You have not given all the information so someone can make a decision. Because you did not explain your personal involvement.
> 
> I have given the information that you are involved in this activity. So that people can make an informed decision.
> 
> If this was a discussion on riding bikes and all you posted was information on bike crashes.then you would not be giving accurate information even though technically you are giving facts.



Bollocks, this is yet another attempt to start an argument and to troll, you don't actually want to know anything about whether I spar full contact or not because you already know that we do at my club, *I've said so numerous times*, I even got censured by a poster, Steve, here because he thought my breaking a student's nose was disgusting etc etc. Ask him. I've also said I've been KO'd twice, but you don't actually want to know, you prefer call me a liar and start one of your online arguments merely because it amuses you. Well son, I think you should concentrate on your own training and grow up.
I don't know why you think that my training style has anything to do with others training and why they would check what I do before deciding what they do, they aren't that kind of stupid. The information on what happens to the brain when hit has been available for a long time, you can choose to ignore it but it has nothing to do with what I do, I recommend people look at facts and make their own minds up, surely you can do that without wondering what others do?


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Bollocks, this is yet another attempt to start an argument and to troll, you don't actually want to know anything about whether I spar full contact or not because you already know that we do at my club, *I've said so numerous times*, I even got censured by a poster, Steve, here because he thought my breaking a student's nose was disgusting etc etc. Ask him. I've also said I've been KO'd twice, but you don't actually want to know, you prefer call me a liar and start one of your online arguments merely because it amuses you. Well son, I think you should concentrate on your own training and grow up.
> I don't know why you think that my training style has anything to do with others training and why they would check what I do before deciding what they do, they aren't that kind of stupid. The information on what happens to the brain when hit has been available for a long time, you can choose to ignore it but it has nothing to do with what I do, I recommend people look at facts and make their own minds up, surely you can do that without wondering what others do?



You really have to stop crying troll every time you struggle to make a point. Just make the point or don't. But constantly playing the victim gets a bit tired.

I explained my position. You can agree with it or not. I don't really care.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> You really have to stop crying troll every time you struggle to make a point. Just make the point or don't. But constantly playing the victim gets a bit tired.
> 
> I explained my position. You can agree with it or not. I don't really care.



But my dear boy, I'm not the victim here, you are because you constantly cry for attention, and really you know I'm not the only one who calls you troll...remember your lessons from Chris Parker who totally owned you?

I do wonder how long the Mods are going to allow this thread to stay open because of the posts of a couple who choose to be uncivil and call respected posters liars, afraid and 'know nothings'. I think this thread has run it's course and has disintegrated into the usual nastiness.


----------



## ShortBridge

abe_tz said:


> Can one only become a good fighter and be prepared for a fight if they spar? Or is simply learning the form and ingraining those movements into one's reflexes just as efficient?



As others have pointed out, it's a nuanced question that will always set up a variety of passionate responses.

Fair to say though that forms and reflexes are not sufficient, on their own, to make someone into a fighter if they weren't one to begin with.


----------



## ShortBridge

Andrew Green said:


> ...If you are going to train for a fight (boxing, mama, may thai, etc) ...



...and let's leave my mama outta this.


----------



## Hanzou

abe_tz said:


> Can one only become a good fighter and be prepared for a fight if they spar? Or is simply learning the form and ingraining those movements into one's reflexes just as efficient?



I have yet to see a fighter that doesn't spar. Let me know when you find one.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Kind of hard to be on a discussion forum if you dont care about what other people do.
> 
> I mean why do you bother?


That is a question I ask myself every time I engage in "discussion" with you and a couple others.  Why bother?

However, there are some others here who are able to have meaningful discussions, and I value their opinions and knowledge.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> OMG, you never fought before have you? Here's a clue, the other guy ain't gonna stand still for you to hit him at full Fist of Fury like the way you do it vs. a bag or some other old guy holding a pad and thinking it'll kill someone for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> After 20+ years of UFC's, the ghost of Fred Ettish still lives on.



Where did I ever say people stand still and let me hit them or even people stand still and let people hit eachother? You are just being obtuse yet again.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> So OK. If you sparred with gloves on and had rules it would reduce the danger of hurting people in training.
> 
> Which is of course why they are there in the first place.


definitely


----------



## JowGaWolf

FriedRice said:


> Like I said, it depends on who you spar against. Maybe if you spar Tex. But say a UFC fighter, ain't going to stand still because arthritis has set in, to let you Super Dragon punch him in the face and absorb the full force. Even the bottom of the barrel UFC fighter, who never even get  to fight on Free TV at the bottom of the fight card....for like $3,000-5,000.....will jack you up.....and the UFC signs up like 500+ fighters. Heck, even the average, local Pro Fighter who can't even make it to this #500 spot and be the lowest guy on the UFC roster..... you wouldn't even touch his face before he KO's you.


I wouldn't be able to touch his face before he knocks me out? Only arrogant fighters think that. And I'm sure none of them would share your assumption about my fighting skill. I actually like people who are arrogant like that not taking me serious or feel that I'm a threat. That gives me an advantage.


----------



## Flying Crane

I keep seeing reference to large sums of money.  I can't quite wrap my head around how that is relevant to this discussion so I'm gonna write that off as someone's personal obsession.  

Either that or it's a sign I need to play the lottery again...


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> That is a question I ask myself every time I engage in "discussion" with you and a couple others.  Why bother?



Because i force people to have original  thoughts or to really understand why they think what they do. 

Rather than just accepting what they have been told. 

It is the same reason you should spar. And spar hard and as many different people as you can.

Because learning is not meant to be comfortable.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> I keep seeing reference to large sums of money.  I can't quite wrap my head around how that is relevant to this discussion so I'm gonna write that off as someone's personal obsession.
> 
> Either that or it's a sign I need to play the lottery again...



If there is big money you are more likley to attract quality people. Rule of thumb.


----------



## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> If there is big money you are more likley to attract quality people. Rule of thumb.



Quantity of people maybe. Idk about quality.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> I wouldn't be able to touch his face before he knocks me out? Only arrogant fighters think that. And I'm sure none of them would share your assumption about my fighting skill. I actually like people who are arrogant like that not taking me serious or feel that I'm a threat. That gives me an advantage.



These conversations always confuse me.  Instead of having a logic gymnastics session. You could just go do it.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> Quantity of people maybe. Idk about quality.



If we are talking about competition the more people who participate the better the top two guys are going to be.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> If there is big money you are more likley to attract quality people. Rule of thumb.


more like attract fighters who want to make by fighting


----------



## Touch Of Death

Ironbear24 said:


> Quantity of people maybe. Idk about quality.


A quality student, is a rich student.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> These conversations always confuse me.  Instead of having a logic gymnastics session. You could just go do it.


just go do it? For the purpose of?
With things like this it is better to take comfort in one's ability and let people think what they want.  It doesn't bother me or get under my skin. Say I fight against a UFC fighter and I land a good punch, then what? Say I don't land a punch but I land a kick. Say I don't land anything then what? No big gain either way.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> If there is big money you are more likley to attract quality people. Rule of thumb.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That is some funny stuff.  I guess that's why I bother.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Because i force people to have original  thoughts or to really understand why they think what they do.
> 
> Rather than just accepting what they have been told.
> 
> It is the same reason you should spar. And spar hard and as many different people as you can.
> 
> Because learning is not meant to be comfortable.


You overestimate yourself.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> just go do it? For the purpose of?
> With things like this it is better to take comfort in one's ability and let people think what they want.  It doesn't bother me or get under my skin. Say I fight against a UFC fighter and I land a good punch, then what? Say I don't land a punch but I land a kick. Say I don't land anything then what? No big gain either way.



You would become a multi-millionaire and become one of the most sought after martial arts instructor/coaches on the planet. Additionally you'd change the face of martial arts forever, and put Jow Ga on the map.

Yeah, no biggie right?


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> You would become a multi-millionaire and become one of the most sought after martial arts instructor/coaches on the planet. Additionally you'd change the face of martial arts forever, and put Jow Ga on the map.
> 
> Yeah, no biggie right?


I do martial arts for myself and not for money or fame. There are better ways to make money and fame than fighting.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> just go do it? For the purpose of?
> With things like this it is better to take comfort in one's ability and let people think what they want.  It doesn't bother me or get under my skin. Say I fight against a UFC fighter and I land a good punch, then what? Say I don't land a punch but I land a kick. Say I don't land anything then what? No big gain either way.



  Doesnt work after you have allready backed yourself on the topic to then claim you have no intrest.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> You overestimate yourself.



Not at all.  That is not a boast it is a concept i feel is important.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> I do martial arts for myself and not for money or fame. There are better ways to make money and fame than fighting.



Which is the typical, and (frankly) laughable response that TMA practitioners make when the rubber hits the road.

You constantly make fight videos and discuss how your tactics allow you to overcome the typical MMA strategy utilizing traditional Chinese MA. It seems rather strange that you're not willing to take it to the next step and make history. If I were in your place I certainly would.


----------



## JowGaWolf

I don't make fight videos. I record my sparring sessions. I share my videos to be informative even when the video doesn't show me at my best.
When some said that kung fu doesn't have take downs. I showed a video where I used a take down. As far as I know only 2 people showed a video of a technique that some said was not possible.  One was a powerful back fist the other was a takedown.  Neither was a video of you.  If I felt like I needed to prove my skills for you, then I would fight you since you are the only one who seems. To have an issue about my abilities.  But since you champion the skills of others and not your own, I'll just let you let believe what you will.  You want me to prove my abilities to you by fighting someone else who isn't questioning my abilities and could care less. 
That that's the big joke about TCMA
. People telling me to show proof of my abilities and always want me to fight someone else who isn't asking for proof


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> Which is the typical, and (frankly) laughable response that TMA practitioners make when the rubber hits the road.
> 
> You constantly make fight videos and discuss how your tactics allow you to overcome the typical MMA strategy utilizing traditional Chinese MA. It seems rather strange that you're not willing to take it to the next step and make history. If I were in your place I certainly would.



Please don't lump us all in the same category because you have a disagreement with one guy.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Doesnt work after you have allready backed yourself on the topic to then claim you have no intrest.


yet you still can't tell me what's the point. To show that you were wrong? Yeah that's a big accomplishment. Highlight of my life is to show you are wrong. And after I do then what? You think too highly of yourself when you think people have to show you proof of something.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Ironbear24 said:


> Please don't lump us all in the same category because you have a disagreement with one guy.


lol.  You'll have even a bigger laugh when you ask what he's disagreeing with.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> If I were in your place I certainly would.


 Stop talking if and Get in my place and make history for yourself, since that's what YOU want.


----------



## Ironbear24

JowGaWolf said:


> lol.  You'll have even a bigger laugh when you ask what he's disagreeing with.



Honestly I have no idea and I don't care to be honest. Many people here seem like they are arguing just for the sake of arguing.


----------



## Tez3

Ironbear24 said:


> Honestly I have no idea and I don't care to be honest. Many people here seem like they are arguing just for the sake of arguing.



That's the truth and the sad thing is it's driving people away, they come here to discuss martial arts in a friendly way just to find it's turned into that site that starts with a B. I know several people who just aren't coming back here. On another thread a poor chap who had only been here a few days was being called a liar among other things. There's very little point in sticking around to be insulted ( badly) is there or to try to get a debate going. An argument is where people argue who is right, a debate is where people argue what is right, there's a big difference. I'm done with this thread, it will be locked soon I imagine.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> Stop talking if and Get in my place and make history for yourself, since that's what YOU want.



That's the part you don't seem to get; I can't make history because I practice a MA that's already been proven in the ring. What's another Bjj guy in MMA going to prove? Everyone in MMA already does Bjj to some degree. Further, I'm not even close to the level of guys like Kron Gracie, Damian Maia, or Ryan Hall.

You, on the other hand come from a style that is nonexistent in MMA. You say that you have the secret of how not to get taken down, and you say that you have a better striking method than MMA/Boxing and it all comes from ancient Chinese methods? Even if you win a few fights on the amateur level, you'd become a sensation and turn the MA world on its head.

I simply find it odd that you and no one else you train with have ANY desire to be fighters. It reeks of that "master in the mountain" excuse where there's this guy that can beat all those silly sport fighters, yet he is above the money and the fame, and just rather live like a bum in the mountain.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> yet you still can't tell me what's the point. To show that you were wrong? Yeah that's a big accomplishment. Highlight of my life is to show you are wrong. And after I do then what? You think too highly of yourself when you think people have to show you proof of something.



I don't think expecting proof has anything to do with anybody thinking highly of themselves. I think everyone can reasonably expect proof. 

The point is that if you have a conversation that could easily be resolved by actually doing the thing they are discussing. It seems simpler to actually do the thing.

As described to me.

So you are holding a pen and we are all discussing what would happen if you let it go. You say it will drop,I say it will go straight up hanzou says it will explode.

By the end of the conversation you give up put the pen away and suggest we will never really know.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> That's the part you don't seem to get; I can't make history because I practice a MA that's already been proven in the ring. What's another Bjj guy in MMA going to prove? Everyone in MMA already does Bjj to some degree. Further, I'm not even close to the level of guys like Kron Gracie, Damian Maia, or Ryan Hall.
> 
> You, on the other hand come from a style that is nonexistent in MMA. You say that you have the secret of how not to get taken down, and you say that you have a better striking method than MMA/Boxing and it all comes from ancient Chinese methods? Even if you win a few fights on the amateur level, you'd become a sensation and turn the MA world on its head.
> 
> I simply find it odd that you and no one else you train with have ANY desire to change the MA world for the better. It reeks of that "master in the mountain" excuse where there's this guy that can beat all those silly sport fighters, yet he is above the money and the fame, and just rather live like a bum in the mountain.



When someone does a karate kick or wing chun maneuvers they don't say oh great karate and wing chun. They say oh what a great display of a muay Thai kick. Or even when a Kenpo guy does a take down they say oh what great bjj technique. The problem is many people into mma don't have an extensive knowledge of martial arts and only know how to spout the names of the same 4 styles you always see in it.

If he were to use his techniques successfully I already know what would happen. The comments would be oh what great bjj and oh what great muay Thai. That is one of the problems with mma in general, it is called mixed martial arts yet where is the mixing at? It's always the same 4 styles that are typically executed poorly, nearly all the fights consist of swinging wildly and or making out on the floor.

What is so ultimate about this?


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> That's the truth and the sad thing is it's driving people away, they come here to discuss martial arts in a friendly way just to find it's turned into that site that starts with a B. I know several people who just aren't coming back here. On another thread a poor chap who had only been here a few days was being called a liar among other things. There's very little point in sticking around to be insulted ( badly) is there or to try to get a debate going. An argument is where people argue who is right, a debate is where people argue what is right, there's a big difference. I'm done with this thread, it will be locked soon I imagine.



Eg.

Combat Jiu-Jitsu with Matt Bryers


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> When someone does a karate kick or wing chun maneuvers they don't say oh great karate and wing chun. They say oh what a great display of a muay Thai kick. Or even when a Kenpo guy does a take down they say oh what great bjj technique. The problem is many people into mma don't have an extensive knowledge of martial arts and only know how to spout the names of the same 4 styles you always see in it.
> 
> If he were to use his techniques successfully I already know what would happen. The comments would be oh what great bjj and oh what great muay Thai. That is one of the problems with mma in general, it is called mixed martial arts yet where is the mixing at? It's always the same 4 styles that are typically executed poorly, nearly all the fights consist of swinging wildly and or making out on the floor.
> 
> What is so ultimate about this?


----------



## Ironbear24

Was this supposed to change my opinion of ufc? It does not. What it did was show me some excellent martial artist and what they do to practice. I have much respect for mma itself and the participants but that doesn't mean I have to find the ufc entertaining or agree that is the best thing ever.

These are all great martial artists but when they get into that octagon, all I end up seeing is fraternity brawling and foreplay.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> Was this supposed to change my opinion of ufc? It does not. What it did was show me some excellent martial artist and what they do to practice. I have much respect for mma itself and the participants but that doesn't mean I have to find the ufc entertaining or agree that is the best thing ever.
> 
> These are all great martial artists but when they get into that octagon, all I end up seeing is fraternity brawling and foreplay.



Yeah I say the same thing about football. But apparently there is a skill to it.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> I think everyone can reasonably expect proof.


 And why do you need proof of my abilities?  



drop bear said:


> The point is that if you have a conversation that could easily be resolved by actually doing the thing they are discussing.


The only thing that is not resolved is your belief in my abilities and you are free to believe or not believe.  



drop bear said:


> This goes back to what I was saying before about people thinking that someone has to answer to them.  You can choose to believe me or not believe me.  We aren't talking about a Pen.  We are talking about abilities.  I know my abilities and capabilities, where they begin and end.   You know know nothing of me, never sparred or trained with me, never received a punch or kick from me.  You don't know anything about me outside of what I say and the videos I show.  And that's the truth of where you stand and your knowledge about what I can do and can't do.   I don't need to show you proof to be validated. The only thing that's not resolved is your belief, and I have nothing to do about how your believe or what you believe. Believe what you want.  Now the conversation is resolved.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> When someone does a karate kick or wing chun maneuvers they don't say oh great karate and wing chun. They say oh what a great display of a muay Thai kick. Or even when a Kenpo guy does a take down they say oh what great bjj technique. The problem is many people into mama don't have an extensive knowledge of martial arts and only know how to spout the names of the same 4 styles you always see in it.



That would be because many arts share techniques, and people claim that someone charging forward throwing chain punches is doing Wing Chun or something when in fact they're just chain punching. Have a guy in the octagon doing this;







And we'd have an entirely different ball game.



> If he were to use his techniques successfully I already know what would happen. The comments would be oh what great bjj and oh what great muay Thai. That is one of the problems with mma in general, it is called mixed martial arts yet where is the mixing at? It's always the same 4 styles that are typically executed poorly, nearly all the fights consist of swinging wildly and or making out on the floor.
> 
> What is so ultimate about this?



Except Jow Ga and traditional CMA in general looks nothing like Muay Thai. Thus there's no way for people to confuse it with the standard kickboxing striking style you see in MMA. Additionally there would be no confusion with Bjj either, since Chinese ground fighting is rare to nonexistent because of the belief by CMA exponents that they can shrug off the takedown.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> That's the part you don't seem to get; I can't make history because I practice a MA that's already been proven in the ring.


What you don't get is that I'm not trying to prove anything.  I've said it before in this forum.  That I want to be a good representation of Jow Ga.  It doesn't matter if I win or lose.  The only thing that I care about is when I fight, that my fighting looks like Jow Ga.  I've said that multiple times.  If I train Jow Ga then my fighting better look like Jow Ga and not some generic kickboxing with basic kicks and punches.  Below is a quote from the description in the video below.  I'm assuming the other guy does kung fu? karate? kick boxing?  It's hard to tell because it's just basic kicks and punches. But it's clear that one guy does kung fu and it shows the applications of the techniques that he practices in the form.  This is what a good representation of a Martial Art is, when it answers yes to the question "Does your fighting looking like what you practice." 
"The wonderful and inspiring thing about Sifu Colvin is that he fights using exactly the same techniques that he practiced in his forms prior to the bout."





All of this glory hunting that's not my plan that's YOUR PLAN. 
You can still make history.  Boxers and MMA fighter make history all the time.



Hanzou said:


> You, on the other hand come from a style that is nonexistent in MMA. You say that you have the secret of how not to get taken down, and you say that you have a better striking method than MMA/Boxing and it all comes from ancient Chinese methods?


  I definitely know that I didn't say this.  I know I talked a lot about the horse stance and how to use to to avoid take downs, and how I think there were some misunderstandings about the saying "a strong stance can defeat a take down."  I remember that conversation.  I don't remember me saying that Jow Ga striking techniques are better than some other style.  As a matter of fact I've never even said that Jow Ga was better.  So all the stuff that you think I've said I haven't said.  I've shared differences between Jow Ga and other fighting systems only because there are differences.  That's just information and not any recognition that one system is better than another.

If you get tired of me talking about Jow Ga and the fighting system that I study and train in, then just don't read my posts.  Some people do TKD some people do  BJJ and they talk about what they do.  Not quite sure why you and some others feel so threaten about what I say that I have to prove something to you every time I talk about what I do.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> Have a guy in the octagon doing this;


Next.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> That's the truth and the sad thing is it's driving people away, they come here to discuss martial arts in a friendly way just to find it's turned into that site that starts with a B. I know several people who just aren't coming back here. On another thread a poor chap who had only been here a few days was being called a liar among other things. There's very little point in sticking around to be insulted ( badly) is there or to try to get a debate going. An argument is where people argue who is right, a debate is where people argue what is right, there's a big difference. I'm done with this thread, it will be locked soon I imagine.


It's the reason I take a break from this place every year or so for a long amount of time. It's also why I end up leaving/not paying attention to threads that I was interested in half the time. I could be having a good conversation with someone, come back in a few hours to 3 pages of back and forth arguing of the same posts over and over, and maybe 2 posts that relate to the OP. Just frustrating and not worth it at all, IMO.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> That would be because many arts share techniques, and people claim that someone charging forward throwing chain punches is doing Wing Chun or something when in fact they're just chain punching. Have a guy in the octagon doing this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And we'd have an entirely different ball game.
> 
> 
> 
> Except Jow Ga and traditional CMA in general looks nothing like Muay Thai. Thus there's no way for people to confuse it with the standard kickboxing striking style you see in MMA. Additionally there would be no confusion with Bjj either, since Chinese ground fighting is rare to nonexistent because of the belief by CMA exponents that they can shrug off the takedown.



There is a way to confuse it though. It's called being ignorant. And no people arent going to perform kata in any form of combative competition. As far as the belief that cma can shrug off takedowns I believe it, but I don't think it will work 100% of the time as many factors are involved here. It really would come down to the two fighters and not their styles.

Here is a way to make that fit more into UFC. Take off the guys GI, give him some tattoos, and put him in some shorts and make sure he has a rap sheet. Make the open palms closed fists and there you go. (Disclaimer) that last paragraph was a joke.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> And why do you need proof of my abilities?
> 
> The only thing that is not resolved is your belief in my abilities and you are free to believe or not believe.



Martial arts needs to be evidence based not belief based. Otherwise martial artists will subscribe to any old thing so long as it sounds plausible.

You wind up with yellow bamboo.

Evidence based training is what separates good training from bad.

And having a look it seems to be consistant across the board.

What Martial Arts Have to Do With Atheism


----------



## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> Martial arts needs to be evidence based not belief based. Otherwise martial artists will subscribe to any old thing so long as it sounds plausible.
> 
> You wind up with yellow bamboo.
> 
> Evidence based training is what separates good training from bad.
> 
> And having a look it seems to be consistant across the board.
> 
> What Martial Arts Have to Do With Atheism



I think the point he is trying to make is that he cares less what you think about his fighting styles effectiveness.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> I think the point he is trying to make is that he cares less what you think about his fighting styles effectiveness.



If he cared less. He would not have brought the subject up or suggested he would give whichever fighter a run for his money.

People make these statements because they care.

The original post was this.

"I wouldn't be able to touch his face before he knocks me out? Only arrogant fighters think that. And I'm sure none of them would share your assumption about my fighting skill. I actually like people who are arrogant like that not taking me serious or feel that I'm a threat. That gives me an advantage."


----------



## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> If he cared less. He would not have brought the subject up or suggested he would give whichever fighter a run for his money.
> 
> People make these statements because they care.
> 
> The original post was this.
> 
> "I wouldn't be able to touch his face before he knocks me out? Only arrogant fighters think that. And I'm sure none of them would share your assumption about my fighting skill. I actually like people who are arrogant like that not taking me serious or feel that I'm a threat. That gives me an advantage."



That was his response to something entirely different though. Friedrice told him that the lowliest ameauture mma fighter could beat him flawlessly. He said that kind of cockiness gives him an advantage.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Martial arts needs to be evidence based not belief based. Otherwise martial artists will subscribe to any old thing so long as it sounds plausible.
> 
> You wind up with yellow bamboo.
> 
> Evidence based training is what separates good training from bad.
> 
> And having a look it seems to be consistant across the board.


"Evidence based" refers to the person taking the martial art not the person who doesn't take it.  Why do you need evidence that Jow Ga works or not when you aren't the one who is doing Jow Ga?  You don't take Jow Ga so it doesn't matter what works and what doesn't work in that system, since you won't be doing any of it anyway.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> "Evidence based" refers to the person taking the martial art not the person who doesn't take it.  Why do you need evidence that Jow Ga works or not when you aren't the one who is doing Jow Ga?  You don't take Jow Ga so it doesn't matter what works and what doesn't work in that system, since you won't be doing any of it anyway.



Well it would be nice if it worked I suppose. Kind of make it more martial arty.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Skaw said:


> How often do you spar with children?


Considering I do a self defense oriented family martial art, often. I don't go full on though.


----------



## RTKDCMB

FriedRice said:


> Show me where I said any of this



It is pretty clearly implied here:



FriedRice said:


> Even the bottom of the barrel UFC fighter, who never even get to fight on Free TV at the bottom of the fight card....for like $3,000-5,000.....will jack you up.....and the UFC signs up like 500+ fighters. Heck, even the average, local Pro Fighter who can't even make it to this #500 spot and be the lowest guy on the UFC roster..... you wouldn't even touch his face before he KO's you.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> If there is big money you are more likley to attract quality people.


Or gold diggers.


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> Or gold diggers.



Well that too. 

The top competitions do attract the top guys though. Is that a given? Or does anybody have an issue with that?


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> It is pretty clearly implied here:



To be honest. They are in a different league. I have sparred some of them they bashed me without trying.

I found the experience worthwhile i think it is good to test with good guys others may not see the point.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Which is the typical, and (frankly) laughable response that TMA practitioners make when the rubber hits the road.



And this statement is typical of someone who makes an assertion based on their own ignorance who cannot accept that other people have different motivations than he does.

Just out of interest; how rich and famous are YOU. Because if you are not rich and famous doing the fighting style you do then you can't be very good.


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> And this statement is typical of someone who makes an assertion based on their own ignorance who cannot accept that other people have different motivations than he does.



If I said that I practice a grappling style that is on par or superior to Bjj, Wrestling, Sambo, etc., and that I can use it against professional fighters, why would anyone be out of line to demand that I prove it?


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> If I said that I practice a grappling style that is on par or superior to Bjj, Wrestling, Sambo, etc., and that I can use it against professional fighters, why would anyone be out of line to demand that I prove it?


That wasn't the argument. The argument was that you seem to think that the only reason TMA practitioners are not competing in MMA to be rich and famous is because they can't, not because they just don't want to.


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> That wasn't the argument. The argument was that you seem to think that the only reason TMA practitioners are not competing in MMA to be rich and famous * is because they can't,* not because they just don't want to.



That would be the most logical conclusion, since TMA practicioners who enter MMA/NHB competition without significant cross-training in the core MMA styles tend to get destroyed.


----------



## Buka

I think anybody who enters a MMA/NHB competition without significant cross-training, and more important, specific training geared to the particular form of competition - is going to get destroyed, regardless of what their base art happens to be.


----------



## Hanzou

Buka said:


> I think anybody who enters a MMA/NHB competition without significant cross-training, and more important, specific training geared to the particular form of competition - is going to get destroyed, regardless of what their base art happens to be.



Kwon Gracie has done pretty good so far, and as near as I can tell he's only using old school Gracie JJ.

Roger Gracie did pretty good in MMA using mainly Gjj as well. He did cross-train in Muay Thai to sharpen his striking though.

Point is, guys like Alan Orr or Shawn Obasi who come from TMAs like Wing Chun have to change their entire style and cross-train heavily in order to be competitive. The level of cross-training is so major for those styles that WC instructors (for example) have actually commented that TMAs like WC aren't suited MMA;


----------



## Gerry Seymour

*Okay, that's odd - this showed as a response to the wrong comment. Original comment was early in the discussion, talking about being a good swimmer without swimming, etc.*

I agree, in principle, but would like to propose a better comparison:
Can you call yourself a good ocean swimmer if you've only ever swam in a lake?
Can you call yourself a good road driver if you've only ever driven in a simulator?
These would be similar, in my mind, to trying to develop fighting skill for self-defense without some sparring.

At the same time, can you call yourself a good road driver if you've only ever driven on a track in races? This is an (obviously flawed) analogy for preparing for self-defense only by practicing sparring under rules (rather than including some simulation of other attack types, for instance).

There is value on both sides (sparring - including competition - and simulation of specific attacks), and ignoring either will almost certainly make your self-defense training less effective.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

FriedRice said:


> Buy good headgear, like $80-100 that Boxers use,  and not the junk that many TMA schools train with, made by Century, Pro Force...   You are taking a lot of risks at your age with head shots...sparring, even with the agreed upon, light level, can spike to hard at times when people get mad....but it's true, getting hit pretty hard and often, is apart of real Self Defense training.



I'll argue one adjustment to that: getting hit hard and often in the head is *apart from* Self Defense training. It delivers the exact things we're working to avoid: potential long-term injury. Taking an occasional reasonably hard shot to the head can help prepare mentally and emotionally. Getting hit more often than that, and with full force, is harmful even with head gear or boxing gloves.

It's a question of priorities. If I want to be the best I can possibly be, I should start training as early as I can, train as often as I can, and train as hard as I can. Then, for a while (until the injuries catch up, if I've received any), I'll be the best I can be. For most of us training for SD, we need to be reasonably prepared for the most likely and most common attacks, plus whatever preparedness we can gain for the less-likely ones.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Kwon Gracie has done pretty good so far, and as near as I can tell he's only using old school Gracie JJ.
> 
> Roger Gracie did pretty good in MMA using mainly Gjj as well. He did cross-train in Muay Thai to sharpen his striking though.
> 
> Point is, guys like Alan Orr or Shawn Obasi who come from TMAs like Wing Chun have to change their entire style and cross-train heavily in order to be competitive. The level of cross-training is so major for those styles that WC instructors (for example) have actually commented that TMAs like WC aren't suited MMA;



You are assuming these folks did NOT prepare for the adversaries they'd face (and their respective styles). Just because they are sticking mainly to BJJ/GJJ doesn't mean they didn't train against those other types.

I actually find it odd that there are two contradictory and mutually-exclusive arguments against I see on the 'Net these days: 1) they don't adapt, and keep doing the same things, and 2) when practitioners enter combat, they have to do new stuff (adapt) which isn't part of their art (which assumes the art CANNOT adapt). Oddly, both of these accusations typically come from those who favor MMA competition, and are often both said by the same people in diffferent threads. 

Either the art isn't adapting, or it is adapting when someone adds a "new" move. When someone adopts a new move, are they adapting the style (using moves that fit with the principles and techniques already within the art) or are they incorporating another art into their fighting (using moves and principles that don't fit within their core style). And does the answer actually matter, beyond the academic question?


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## Ironbear24

It's a very one sided argument here, you can take the same logic and ask what would happen if a bjj guy entered a competition where grappling is not allowed? And all you are permitted to do is strike? 

He would be destroyed obviously. No matter what your style is you have to train to prepare yourself for what you are going to be fighting against.


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## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> You are assuming these folks did NOT prepare for the adversaries they'd face (and their respective styles). Just because they are sticking mainly to BJJ/GJJ doesn't mean they didn't train against those other types.



I'm sure they did prepare for their adversaries. However, you can prepare for your adversary by trying to find the solution within your base style, or branching out and incorporating a different style. Those are two very different things. Roger opted to do the latter, and incorporated Muay Thai striking to augment his Bjj grappling. Kron *appears* to be doing the former. Either way, its clear that the base of both of their MMA styles is Bjj. My argument is why aren't we seeing guys doing stuff like this in MMA;









> I actually find it odd that there are two contradictory and mutually-exclusive arguments against I see on the 'Net these days: 1) they don't adapt, and keep doing the same things, and 2) when practitioners enter combat, they have to do new stuff (adapt) which isn't part of their art (which assumes the art CANNOT adapt). Oddly, both of these accusations typically come from those who favor MMA competition, and are often both said by the same people in diffferent threads.
> 
> Either the art isn't adapting, or it is adapting when someone adds a "new" move. When someone adopts a new move, are they adapting the style (using moves that fit with the principles and techniques already within the art) or are they incorporating another art into their fighting (using moves and principles that don't fit within their core style). And does the answer actually matter, beyond the academic question?



The reason you're getting those arguments is because the other side is purposely dodgy and refuses to give a straight-forward answer. When all else fails they resort to the classic arguments that they're either above fighting in a cage, they have no desire to seek "fortune and fame", or that their martial art of choice is too deadly for competitive fighting.

There's nothing wrong with an art adapting. Bjj adapts constantly, and I think its a wonderful thing. However, the difference is that traditional styles (for the most part) don't believe in adaptation. They believe that the system's creator had all the answers for fighting hundreds of years ago, so any change to the system is blasphemy, and is why you see so many Karate and Kung Fu systems today. Usually one minor disagreement caused a disciple of the main system to create a completely new martial art.


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## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> You are assuming these folks did NOT prepare for the adversaries they'd face


This is the danger zone for most martial arts that are popular like TKD and Karate. They train against their own style so the become really good with that.  But when they go against a different style they forget to adapt their skill set to deal with what is being used against them.  This is why on technique has multiple applications.  in some cases the same technique can be used for setting up striking or grappling techniques.  The only way to learn how to adapt is to practice against the style that will be attacking you.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> You are assuming these folks did NOT prepare for the adversaries they'd face (and their respective styles). Just because they are sticking mainly to BJJ/GJJ doesn't mean they didn't train against those other types.
> 
> I actually find it odd that there are two contradictory and mutually-exclusive arguments against I see on the 'Net these days: 1) they don't adapt, and keep doing the same things, and 2) when practitioners enter combat, they have to do new stuff (adapt) which isn't part of their art (which assumes the art CANNOT adapt). Oddly, both of these accusations typically come from those who favor MMA competition, and are often both said by the same people in diffferent threads.
> 
> Either the art isn't adapting, or it is adapting when someone adds a "new" move. When someone adopts a new move, are they adapting the style (using moves that fit with the principles and techniques already within the art) or are they incorporating another art into their fighting (using moves and principles that don't fit within their core style). And does the answer actually matter, beyond the academic question?



That I back to the concept of form follows function. Some people will change their techniques to fit reality.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> I'm sure they did prepare for their adversaries. However, you can prepare for your adversary by trying to find the solution within your base style, or branching out and incorporating a different style. Those are two very different things. Roger opted to do the latter, and incorporated Muay Thai striking to augment his Bjj grappling. Kron *appears* to be doing the former. Either way, its clear that the base of both of their MMA styles is Bjj. My argument is why aren't we seeing guys doing stuff like this in MMA;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason you're getting those arguments is because the other side is purposely dodgy and refuses to give a straight-forward answer. When all else fails they resort to the classic arguments that they're either above fighting in a cage, they have no desire to seek "fortune and fame", or that their martial art of choice is too deadly for competitive fighting.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with an art adapting. Bjj adapts constantly, and I think its a wonderful thing. However, the difference is that traditional styles (for the most part) don't believe in adaptation. They believe that the system's creator had all the answers for fighting hundreds of years ago, so any change to the system is blasphemy, and is why you see so many Karate and Kung Fu systems today. Usually one minor disagreement caused a disciple of the main system to create a completely new martial art.



It is very obvious your knowledge of Chinese martial arts is very limited. Nobody is going to perform kata or kata forms in a fight. Kata and combat are separate things.


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## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> The reason you're getting those arguments is because the other side



There are no sides. We are all martial artists. These sides you talk about are arbitrary and fictional. They only exist in your mind.


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## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> It is very obvious your knowledge of Chinese martial arts is very limited. Nobody is going to perform kata or kata forms in a fight. Kata and combat are separate things.



So Kata has no combat applications?


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> So Kata has no combat applications?



That depends on the martial art. I'm assuming you don't know this because bjj doesn't have kata. Kata is ideally supposed to be light impact training which is good for when you are sore from previous training or from matches. Some katas are designed to practice combat technique but many of the kata you seen in Chinese styles are more of an art and meant for training qi gong.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> I'm sure they did prepare for their adversaries. However, you can prepare for your adversary by trying to find the solution within your base style, or branching out and incorporating a different style. Those are two very different things. Roger opted to do the latter, and incorporated Muay Thai striking to augment his Bjj grappling. Kron *appears* to be doing the former. Either way, its clear that the base of both of their MMA styles is Bjj. My argument is why aren't we seeing guys doing stuff like this in MMA;



I've also never seen that particular stance in any of the various kung fu (any style) sparring videos I've watched. Admittedly, I've not watched all of them, but if it were common, I'd expect to have seen it by now. They don't use it frequently for sparring amongst themselves, so why expect it with others?



> The reason you're getting those arguments is because the other side is purposely dodgy and refuses to give a straight-forward answer. When all else fails they resort to the classic arguments that they're either above fighting in a cage, they have no desire to seek "fortune and fame", or that their martial art of choice is too deadly for competitive fighting.



Some do. I, however, am from that "other side", and know that some of all of those statements can be true (most of the people I know who study TMA - the styles I interact with the most - have no interest in competition, most of them won't hurt someone for contest, most have no desire for recognition for their martial skill, and some of the techniques in EVERY art are too dangerous to be used in competitive fighting). I also know that none of those statements are the entire reason. There's a lot more that goes in: whether the individual believes competition is valuable for their SD training, whether they are willing to risk injury that impedes everyday life and their ability to defend themselves, whether they want to incur the extra expense of gear and time necessary train for and to get good enough for competition, etc. Somewhere in there, there is also the question of the effectiveness of the training (not the style, IMO, because the way a style is trained appears to have a more powerful impact than the style itself).



> There's nothing wrong with an art adapting. Bjj adapts constantly, and I think its a wonderful thing. However, the difference is that traditional styles (for the most part) don't believe in adaptation. They believe that the system's creator had all the answers for fighting hundreds of years ago, so any change to the system is blasphemy, and is why you see so many Karate and Kung Fu systems today. Usually one minor disagreement caused a disciple of the main system to create a completely new martial art.



That hasn't been my experience with most. Yes, most are slow to change things - they want to work with what has proven effectiveness (at least in the dojos I've studied at, where there was some evidence to work from) and only adapt where they find something specifically lacking. Most, however, are very good at making gradual adaptations (drastic changes are new styles, not adaptations) once they reach a high enough level of understanding to see where they'd like to strengthen one point or another. Sometimes, they just adapt their school, rather than the art, as in the case of one instructor I know who decided he wanted his students to have more than our rudimentary (effective, but limited) ground work to choose from, so he studied GJJ and added some classes. I took the other route, and added more focus to the ground work and leveraged the principles of the standing techniques to expand by using what I've learned by rolling with MMA folks.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> That I back to the concept of form follows function. Some people will change their techniques to fit reality.



I'm not clear what you mean by that.


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## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> That depends on the martial art. I'm assuming you don't know this because bjj doesn't have kata. Kata is ideally supposed to be light impact training which is good for when you are sore from previous training or from matches. Some katas are designed to practice combat technique but many of the kata you seen in Chinese styles are more of an art and meant for training qi gong.



This guy seems to have no problem applying it to combat;








gpseymour said:


> I've also never seen that particular stance in any of the various kung fu (any style) sparring videos I've watched. Admittedly, I've not watched all of them, but if it were common, I'd expect to have seen it by now. They don't use it frequently for sparring amongst themselves, so why expect it with others?.



It appears to be a variation on the crane stance, given his "beak hand" and the raised leg.


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## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> This guy seems to have no problem applying it to combat;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to be a variation on the crane stance, given his "beak hand" and the raised leg.



There was no combat here.


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## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> There was no combat here.



He said you can use the stance to avoid a sweep, block a kick, or to kick.

In other words, he believes (and I'm sure he's not alone) that you can use that stance for fighting/combat purposes.

And here's some Tiger/Crane self defense moves;






Definitely different than what you're seeing in MMA. I highly doubt an ignorant MMA viewer would confuse those movements and attacks for you're standard MMA striking.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> He said you can use the stance to avoid a sweep, block a kick, or to kick.
> 
> In other words, he believes (and I'm sure he's not alone) that you can use that stance for fighting/combat purposes.



It is probably a stance that you fluidly transition into throughout the fight I guess. Similar to front stance and horse stance and corkscrew stance in kenpo. If that is the case then yes this stance can be used in combat. Though I seriously doubt he is going to have his hands on his hips during the fight.


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## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> It is probably a stance that you fluidly transition into throughout the fight I guess. Similar to front stance and horse stance and corkscrew stance in kenpo. If that is the case then yes this stance can be used in combat. Though I seriously doubt he is going to have his hands on his hips during the fight.



So were you wrong when you said that *no one* would perform this stance in a fight?

Additionally, why wouldn't we see these types of stances in MMA?


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## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> He said you can use the stance to avoid a sweep, block a kick, or to kick.
> 
> In other words, he believes (and I'm sure he's not alone) that you can use that stance for fighting/combat purposes.
> 
> And here's some Tiger/Crane self defense moves;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely different than what you're seeing in MMA. I highly doubt an ignorant MMA viewer would confuse those movements and attacks for you're standard MMA striking.



Aaaand this is banned in UFC. Eye pokes are not allowed and neither is clawing eachother. Chinese martial arts are made to win at any cost not be tournament legal.


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## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> Aaaand this is banned in UFC. Eye pokes are not allowed and neither is clawing eachother. Chinese martial arts are made to win at any cost not be tournament legal.



You can modify the eye poke into a punch.

As for clawing, while the UFC doesn't allow it, there are plenty of MMA outfits that do. Rio heroes being the biggest one.

Or again, you can modify the clawing into a punch or something else.

No thoughts on the palm strike to the chest that supposedly sent that kid flying? That's perfectly legal in MMA.


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## Ironbear24

You won't see any good practitioner have his hands on his hips while blocking a kick with his or her shin as you saw in the video. And I said you won't see Katanot that stance in combat. I was talking about the picture you posted originally with that guy trying to imitate some crouching tiger hidden dragon jumbo.

If you want to split hairs, yes you can see crane in fighting if according to you crane is simply lifting up one leg in a front position.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> So were you wrong when you said that *no one* would perform this stance in a fight?
> 
> Additionally, why wouldn't we see these types of stances in MMA?





Hanzou said:


> You can modify the eye poke into a punch.



And when you do that it will then be simply a punch and people will not identify it as Chinese martial art.

Rio heroes is in Brazil. I doubt people want to fly all the way to Brazil for that, let alone they probably never heard of it. I know I haven't until now.


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## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> You won't see any good practitioner have his hands on his hips while blocking a kick with his or her shin as you saw in the video. And I said you won't see Katanot that stance in combat. I was talking about the picture you posted originally with that guy trying to imitate some crouching tiger hidden dragon jumbo.
> 
> If you want to split hairs, yes you can see crane in fighting if according to you crane is simply lifting up one leg in a front position.



I'm not splitting hairs. I'm pointing out that the original stance I posted has direct combat applications and is supposed to be used for fighting.






You told me that those stances aren't for fighting, but for improving your "qigong". So which is it? Either these guys are right and that stance is a perfectly legitimate fighting stance that can be used for fighting purposes, or you're right and that stance is simply for exercising, and all those guys who say it has a combat application are uninformed.



Ironbear24 said:


> And when you do that it will then be simply a punch and people will not identify it as Chinese martial art.



Nah, check out the crane beak block right before the eye poke counter;





People will definitely recognize that as CMA.


----------



## Azulx

Ironbear24 said:


> You won't see any good practitioner have his hands on his hips while blocking a kick with his or her shin as you saw in the video. And I said you won't see Katanot that stance in combat. I was talking about the picture you posted originally with that guy trying to imitate some crouching tiger hidden dragon jumbo.
> 
> If you want to split hairs, yes you can see crane in fighting if according to you crane is simply lifting up one leg in a front position.



I can't seem to find the initial debate of what is being discussed between the 13 pages of post. Is the topi,c the effectiveness of the crane stance in a fight?


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> I'm not splitting hairs. I'm pointing out that the original stance I posted has direct combat applications and is supposed to be used for fighting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You told me that those stances aren't for fighting, but for improving your "qigong". So which is it? Either these guys are right and that stance is a perfectly legitimate fighting stance that can be used for fighting purposes, or you're right and that stance is simply for exercising, and all those guys who say it has a combat application are uninformed.



I already answered you. Yes it can be but not in the way you see it in your original pic you posted. If you really want to know about crane you are better off asking a Chinese martial artist. My fighting style is kenpo and judo and neither of them are Chinese arts, kenpo did originate from china but we have modified crane and the other forms so much that it is a different art now.


----------



## Ironbear24

Azulx said:


> I can't seem to find the initial debate of what is being discussed between the 13 pages of post. Is the topi,c the effectiveness of the crane stance in a fight?



Originally the post is about the importance of sparring in martial arts training. Somehow it became another MMA vs TMA thread. There really should be no divide here in the first place as we are both practically identical.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou what is funny about previous post? I am just being honest here and I can only speak using my own experience. My knowledge of Chinese martial arts is not the greatest as it comes from kenpo which is not a Chinese martial art. I have been around Chinese martial arts and that is about it.


----------



## Azulx

Ironbear24 said:


> I already answered you. Yes it can be but not in the way you see it in your original pic you posted. If you really want to know about crane you are better off asking a Chinese martial artist. My fighting style is kenpo and judo and neither of them are Chinese arts, kenpo did originate from china but we have modified crane and the other forms so much that it is a different art now.



I don't know if y'all or debating the effectiveness of the crane in sport fighting or street fighting. My MA is Taekwon-Do from my perspective this is how I feel about the crane. In my first collegiate karate sparring tournament, in my semi-final match, I was one point away from winning. Now I am not aware of the chinese traditional crane stance, but we do use the one leg stance where the other leg is in the air chambered for a front kick. As I approached my opponent I raised my leg and left it locked in the one-leg stance ( which is what we call it). It became difficult for my opponent to strike my body , because my chambered leg was blocking, as far as my hand placement it remained in our traditional sparring stance, one hand by the ear, the other right under the eye . With the chambered leg I transitioned it into a twisting kick which landed right on my opponents chin. In point sparring I found that the one leg stance was practical and worked. It was different, and not everyone is used to it. 

Now I have never been in a street fight or a fight where I found that my life was in danger. If I ever do come across this situation, the crane stance really wouldn't be one of my go-to techniques. Simply because A, it's not something we train in enough to where I would feel comfortable enough to use it in a life or death situation. B, I would do my best to stay away from leaving my feet or losing balance in a fight, leading to C, if I get my leg caught or got taken down as A TaeKwon-Do practitioner I would be at a huge disadvantage as I am not trained in ground fighting. This is simply my opinion, and I am sure there are people out there who have a killer crane stance, I just personally don't and wouldn't use it in a street fight.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> Hanzou what is funny about previous post? I am just being honest here and I can only speak using my own experience. My knowledge of Chinese martial arts is not the greatest as it comes from kenpo which is not a Chinese martial art. I have been around Chinese martial arts and that is about it.



It's funny because originally you said that that particular stance was for kata only. Now you're saying that it can be used for fighting. Then you said that the applications I showed weren't the same as the original stance, but in fact they were. So yeah, I find the backtracking pretty funny.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> It's funny because originally you said that that particular stance was for kata only. Now you're saying that it can be used for fighting. Then you said that the applications I showed weren't the same as the original stance, but in fact they were. So yeah, I find the backtracking pretty funny.



It is not backtracking though. The original picture was much different from the video you posted. You posted a pic of an akward looking guy doing something straight out of an old dubbed Kung fu theatre movie.

I posted to it saying that seems like a more kata stance as it looked very theatrical and silly.

Then you posted a video after that of a guy doing crane in an entirely different manner which still seemed silly for combat application as his hands are at his hips and his legs are shaking as he is in the stance.

So then I said yeah you can use it for combat BUT it will not be done that way with your hands at your hips because that leaves your face wide open along with your center line above the waist. I added to it that it is a transitional stance as let's be honest. Do you think it is going to be a fighting stance? 

No way it will be. It is going to be done do block kicks from a side stance as shown in the video or done to begin a front kick or some form of jumping front kick.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> It is not backtracking though. The original picture was much different from the video you posted. You posted a pic of an akward looking guy doing something straight out of an old dubbed Kung fu theatre movie.
> 
> I posted to it saying that seems like a more kata stance as it looked very theatrical and silly.
> 
> Then you posted a video after that of a guy doing crane in an entirely different manner which still seemed silly for combat application as his hands are at his hips and his legs are shaking as he is in the stance.



Yeah, the guy had a problem keeping his leg up, but that wasn't the point. The only difference between the picture I posted and the video were the placement of the hands. The fighting application was completely based on the leg placement (sweep, kick block, kick), so where the hands were didn't really matter.



> So then I said yeah you can use it for combat BUT it will not be done that way with your hands at your hips because that leaves your face wide open along with your center line above the waist. I added to it that it is a transitional stance as let's be honest. Do you think it is going to be a fighting stance?
> 
> No way it will be. It is going to be done do block kicks from a side stance as shown in the video or done to begin a front kick or some form of jumping front kick.



Well in the last vid I posted you had those two guys outside showing an application for the hands as well. The lower hand was used to block and grab the wrist, while the other hand was used to block a counter punch. Finally, the raised leg was used to kick the guy. Again, a general application utilizing the basic stance shown.

The question is why aren't we seeing any of those lovely stances and techniques in NHB/MMA fights? The majority of it is perfectly legal.


----------



## Ironbear24

The other video I have not seen because you must have  edited it into your post after I responded. I'll look at it, from what I know of chinese martial arts, which is not the best mind you. Many of them are very humble and don't wish to no partake in tournaments. I honestly despise this attitude as it can only improve an individual as a martial artist but that is how many of them are. 

I don't believe it can't work in mma. It works everywhere else so I don't see why not.


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## Ironbear24

Hanzou. I think you will find this interesting, cung le, a Chinese fighter who practices sanshou. Apparently he is doing well in the mma scene. Unfortunately for most Chinese martial arts and many more striking styles in general there was no training to defend against grappling simply because it was never common place.

Until it became more common in the mid 90's they didn't began implementing it into their training. This could be why you aren't seeing many Chinese styles because of the stubborness to not implement new stuff into their training regiment. Not all of them are lke this but there are plenty.


----------



## FriedRice

gpseymour said:


> I'll argue one adjustment to that: getting hit hard and often in the head is apart from Self Defense training. It delivers the exact things we're working to avoid: potential long-term injury. Taking an occasional reasonably hard shot to the head can help prepare mentally and emotionally. Getting hit more often than that, and with full force, is harmful even with head gear or boxing gloves.
> 
> It's a question of priorities. If I want to be the best I can possibly be, I should start training as early as I can, train as often as I can, and train as hard as I can. Then, for a while (until the injuries catch up, if I've received any), I'll be the best I can be. For most of us training for SD, we need to be reasonably prepared for the most likely and most common attacks, plus whatever preparedness we can gain for the less-likely ones.




I don't disagree with what you're saying. Like some old lady with Osteoporosis is not going to be able to take full shots to the face and body on a regular basis just so she can get really good at Self Defense. My main point is that the highest level of MA training is to train as a fighter, which will translate into SD when such situation arises...with the exception of gun disarming, training....which Fighter's training, in general, would lack....while gun disarming in itself, is highly risky to begin with and even more rare than H2H attacks/confrontations.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Ironbear24 said:


> There was no combat here.


Agreed. There was also no use of the kata, itself. He was explaining how a part of a stance, reinforced in kata, can find application in combat. I think most arts that have kata do at least this - they use the movements learned in kata to reinforce the combat training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> So were you wrong when you said that *no one* would perform this stance in a fight?
> 
> Additionally, why wouldn't we see these types of stances in MMA?


Since what was shown in the video was actually just variations of why you might raise a leg, all of those are applicable. We've seen front kicks (one leg raised). We've seen leg checks (one leg raised). If anyone was trying to sweep legs (which I don't recall seeing in a while), we'd probably see some people raising a leg to avoid those, as well.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> You can modify the eye poke into a punch.


That changes the entire shape and dynamic of the movement.



> As for clawing, while the UFC doesn't allow it, there are plenty of MMA outfits that do. Rio heroes being the biggest one.
> 
> Or again, you can modify the clawing into a punch or something else.


Again, altering the nature of the movement. You're essentially asking why people aren't using Tiger and Crane movements to do things they aren't good for. Would you use your side kick to do a front kick? I'm not debating the effectiveness of these techniques for the street (I don't know the principles behind them, and haven't tested them), but simply saying "you could adapt it to a punch" assumes that movement is almost a punch.



> No thoughts on the palm strike to the chest that supposedly sent that kid flying? That's perfectly legal in MMA.


That's not a palm heel of the sort I (and maybe you) am used to. I was taught the palm heel as a striking force (like a typical straight punch or backfist). My understanding is that many strikes in CMA use a driving force, more like a really hard shove. Those will shove someone back if they aren't really well rooted. I can do similar things in some of my techniques, assuming I find someone who has created that opening. If they don't create that opening, you just don't use that particular aspect of the technique. Again, I can't speak to the effectiveness of the strike, but I do know (from having felt it) that even a fairly slow palm heel from at least some CMA's can have tremendous driving force - far more than mine have.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> I've also never seen that particular stance in any of the various kung fu (any style) sparring videos I've watched. Admittedly, I've not watched all of them, but if it were common, I'd expect to have seen it by now. They don't use it frequently for sparring amongst themselves, so why expect it with others?


  You have seen that one leg stance in sparring and fighting.  It's very common.  I had a discussion with some of the student at my school covering some similar concerns about what we practice ans why we don't see it.

With kung fu there are multiple things going on at the same time so in that one leg stance you are seeing multiple techniques that may or may not be done at the same time. In that particular picture there is a leg raise a low block and a what looks like to be a crane technique? 
Various Applications  
1. The one leg stance can be done to either avoid a sweep, leg check, or to launch a kick.  You have seen this technique many times before.  As it's usually done without the other hands in position. That one leg stance can also be used to quickly fire off a front snap kick or a front hill kick.  I actually showed this in one of my videos when my sparring partner was attacking. 

2. The low hand down is a block with the hand directed at knee coming up or if the hand strong enough it could be against a kick before the kick is powerful.  This technique of standing on one leg and low blocking is probably best suited for a move that is similar to what I do.  I will sweep you so that you lift your leg and as that leg is lifted I'll knee the crap out of you.  So this technique would work. If you don't block my knee or interrupt it then I can land that knee into the thigh of the raised leg.

3. The third part looks like a crane technique which we don't have or practice in Jow Ga so I couldn't tell you if what the guy is doing is even correct or not in terms of that hand.  In Jow Ga  both hands are blocking. There is however a crane technique in Tai Chi that looks similar to what this guy is doing with his form.  When you see the hand position like that you can think of it as a defense against a punch.   In Tai chi someone would punch at my face with their lead hand I would hook and redirect that punch with my hand shaped like that. In the context of the picture it could be a similar principle where the punch is hook and a heel kick or a snap kick is done shorty after while the punch is being redirected. That's just my best guess but like I said that particular part isn't in my style of fighting where I'll stand on one leg.  In my system this technique would be a multiple  attacker technique where both hands are blocking, where the leg up is to deal with a possible sweep or knee or just a counter balance while I'm avoiding the sweep.. While the other hand is blocking the other attacker that's on the other side.

The key component that the photo isn't showing is the transition which would help to make more sense of what this guy is doing provided that's a real technique for someone.

In practice standing like this guy does is done for strength building, conditioning, and balance training that will be required to do this in a real fight situation.  This is what the application of the form looks like in UFC.  Notice the position of the low hand and the knee,


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> It's funny because originally you said that that particular stance was for kata only. Now you're saying that it can be used for fighting. Then you said that the applications I showed weren't the same as the original stance, but in fact they were. So yeah, I find the backtracking pretty funny.



You originally posted a stylized version of that stance. Go back to the original image you posted, and show where anything OTHER THAN the leg up is actually in the video you posted later. That stylized stance - if it exists - would not likely be a fighting stance, but would still have application for fighting.

What I think Ironbear said was that many kata were for qigong development, not for fighting. That doesn't mean that movements in them aren't also in the fighting portions of the art.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Ironbear24 said:


> It is probably a stance that you fluidly transition into throughout the fight I guess. Similar to front stance and horse stance and corkscrew stance in kenpo. If that is the case then yes this stance can be used in combat. Though I seriously doubt he is going to have his hands on his hips during the fight.


Kung Fu training of forms are never straight forward to someone looking on the outside. Once the application is understood then the training of that application becomes clearer.  It's not just just the technique that is being trained, it's the muscles, the tendons, the response time, the balance and the ability to root on one leg that has to be trained as well.  In kung fu as well as many other martial arts, "The tree grows from the roots." Using a technique with a weak root or absence of conditioning will = a failed and ineffective deployment of a technique.

That's why many martial artist will always recommend that a person learns under a teacher because there is so much more going on than what our eyes see.  The teacher helps bring understanding of it and practice helps the student to be good at it.  Once you understanding it, then you'll begin to see it more in more when people fight.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> Hanzou. I think you will find this interesting, cung le, a Chinese fighter who practices sanshou. Apparently he is doing well in the mma scene. Unfortunately for most Chinese martial arts and many more striking styles in general there was no training to defend against grappling simply because it was never common place.
> 
> Until it became more common in the mid 90's they didn't began implementing it into their training. This could be why you aren't seeing many Chinese styles because of the stubborness to not implement new stuff into their training regiment. Not all of them are lke this but there are plenty.



I've known about Cung Le for quite some time. His success in MMA isn't surprising since Sanshou is pretty much Chinese MMA with hand techniques from western boxing, kicks from Kung fu and Muay Thai, and takedowns from Chinese wrestling.

They're pretty weak against grappling though, since they have no ground game. Cung Le actually had to cross-train in Bjj in order to prepare himself for the UFC.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> I've known about Cung Le for quite some time. His success in MMA isn't surprising since Sanshou is pretty much Chinese MMA with hand techniques from western boxing, kicks from Kung fu and Muay Thai, and takedowns from Chinese wrestling.
> 
> They're pretty weak against grappling though, since they have no ground game. Cung Le actually had to cross-train in Bjj in order to prepare himself for the UFC.



Well then I don't get why you are asking why Chinese martial arts is not used in it, since this guy is using it. Sure he is using it with other arts but cmon dude. You can't knock it or him for that because it is called mma for a reason.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> That changes the entire shape and dynamic of the movement.









The movement is trapping the punch with the "beak" and countering because there's an opening. That opening can literally be anything. Hell, you could go for a backlist to the face. That would be more reliable than attempting to poke out their eyes out from that angle.




> Again, altering the nature of the movement. You're essentially asking why people aren't using Tiger and Crane movements to do things they aren't good for. Would you use your side kick to do a front kick? I'm not debating the effectiveness of these techniques for the street (I don't know the principles behind them, and haven't tested them), but simply saying "you could adapt it to a punch" assumes that movement is almost a punch.







Why can't you punch/palm strike/elbow from that angle? It's the exact same general motion, and frankly would be a bit more effective than trying to scratch someone in the face.

Just for comparison, up kicking and heel kicking to the kidneys were both banned in the UFC, and that adversely affected Guard play. However, the Guard is still used in MMA, despite some of its striking being stripped away.



> That's not a palm heel of the sort I (and maybe you) am used to. I was taught the palm heel as a striking force (like a typical straight punch or backfist). My understanding is that many strikes in CMA use a driving force, more like a really hard shove. Those will shove someone back if they aren't really well rooted. I can do similar things in some of my techniques, assuming I find someone who has created that opening. If they don't create that opening, you just don't use that particular aspect of the technique. Again, I can't speak to the effectiveness of the strike, but I do know (from having felt it) that even a fairly slow palm heel from at least some CMA's can have tremendous driving force - far more than mine have.



That's fine. I'm just curious as to why we don't see any of this in any form of competition. The only aspects that couldn't be applied are the eye poke and the scratch, methods that have a low chance of success anyway.



Ironbear24 said:


> Well then I don't get why you are asking why Chinese martial arts is not used in it, since this guy is using it. Sure he is using it with other arts but cmon dude. You can't knock it or him for that because it is called mma for a reason.



There's a pretty big difference between Sanshou and classic Chinese martial arts. Again, the core of Sanshou is western boxing, not native Chinese styles.

BTW, its called MMA because the styles that eventually formed the core of it weren't "complete" martial arts. Bjj for example doesn't have much in way of punches and kicks. Wrestling lacks striking completely, and has no ground submissions. Muay Thai is lacking in ground grappling, and so forth. 

However, those traditional MAs have great amounts of both striking and grappling, so it should have no issue in a MMA competition right?


----------



## Touch Of Death

So, if I pull somebody's eye out and throw it at them, that has a low chance of success?


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## Ironbear24

Touch Of Death said:


> So, if I pull somebody's eye out and throw it at them, that has a low chance of success?



No. That happens to me all the time and I still perform the 100 fists of kenpo and reduce my enemies to dust anyways. I simply just put it back in after the fight is over.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Speaking of Kenpo and cranes, the technique, leaping crane should be re-named scampering yard bird, because all to many people start doing the Ralph Machio, when they should be doing the Larry (Yard) Bird.


----------



## Ironbear24

Touch Of Death said:


> Speaking of Kenpo and cranes, the technique, leaping crane should be re-named scampering yard bird, because all to many people start doing the Ralph Machio, when they should be doing the Larry (Yard) Bird.



My leaping crane is pitiful. I'm a stocky muscular guy at 5'9 205. My leaping crane is often scoffed at and called the staggering bear.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Ironbear24 said:


> My leaping crane is pitiful. I'm a stocky muscular guy at 5'9 205. My leaping crane is often scoffed at and called the staggering bear.


Sounds like you are doing it right. The tech is, launch, and front cover to 10:30; Kick directly to the side, as you do this maneuver. That's it. You don't crane out, you don't turn to face, you just kick directly to the side. You don't even have to look, but it is ok if you do.


----------



## Ironbear24

Well it is comforting to know I can do it right even though I am not 150 pounds and can fly through the air like some people can.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Ironbear24 said:


> Well it is comforting to know I can do it right even though I am not 150 pounds and can fly through the air like some people can.


Flight is over rated.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> You have seen that one leg stance in sparring and fighting.  It's very common.  I had a discussion with some of the student at my school covering some similar concerns about what we practice ans why we don't see it.
> 
> With kung fu there are multiple things going on at the same time so in that one leg stance you are seeing multiple techniques that may or may not be done at the same time. In that particular picture there is a leg raise a low block and a what looks like to be a crane technique?
> Various Applications
> 1. The one leg stance can be done to either avoid a sweep, leg check, or to launch a kick.  You have seen this technique many times before.  As it's usually done without the other hands in position. That one leg stance can also be used to quickly fire off a front snap kick or a front hill kick.  I actually showed this in one of my videos when my sparring partner was attacking.
> 
> 2. The low hand down is a block with the hand directed at knee coming up or if the hand strong enough it could be against a kick before the kick is powerful.  This technique of standing on one leg and low blocking is probably best suited for a move that is similar to what I do.  I will sweep you so that you lift your leg and as that leg is lifted I'll knee the crap out of you.  So this technique would work. If you don't block my knee or interrupt it then I can land that knee into the thigh of the raised leg.
> 
> 3. The third part looks like a crane technique which we don't have or practice in Jow Ga so I couldn't tell you if what the guy is doing is even correct or not in terms of that hand.  In Jow Ga  both hands are blocking. There is however a crane technique in Tai Chi that looks similar to what this guy is doing with his form.  When you see the hand position like that you can think of it as a defense against a punch.   In Tai chi someone would punch at my face with their lead hand I would hook and redirect that punch with my hand shaped like that. In the context of the picture it could be a similar principle where the punch is hook and a heel kick or a snap kick is done shorty after while the punch is being redirected. That's just my best guess but like I said that particular part isn't in my style of fighting where I'll stand on one leg.  In my system this technique would be a multiple  attacker technique where both hands are blocking, where the leg up is to deal with a possible sweep or knee or just a counter balance while I'm avoiding the sweep.. While the other hand is blocking the other attacker that's on the other side.
> 
> The key component that the photo isn't showing is the transition which would help to make more sense of what this guy is doing provided that's a real technique for someone.
> 
> In practice standing like this guy does is done for strength building, conditioning, and balance training that will be required to do this in a real fight situation.  This is what the application of the form looks like in UFC.  Notice the position of the low hand and the knee,




I was referring to the stylized stance in the original picture he posted. The one that looked something like the "Crane Kick" from the original _Karate Kid _movie. That's what I haven't seen in anything combat-related. As I said in a later post, one-legged positions (especially as transitions) exist all over the place, and are certainly not exclusive to Crane style, or even to CMA.


----------



## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> So, if I pull somebody's eye out and throw it at them, that has a low chance of success?



Depends on if they are fighting back.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> It's a very one sided argument here, you can take the same logic and ask what would happen if a bjj guy entered a competition where grappling is not allowed? And all you are permitted to do is strike?
> 
> He would be destroyed obviously. No matter what your style is you have to train to prepare yourself for what you are going to be fighting against.



Hopefully after he looses he wont bang on about training for the street and instead learn some striking skills.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> BTW, its called MMA because the styles that eventually formed the core of it weren't "complete" martial arts. Bjj for example doesn't have much in way of punches and kicks. Wrestling lacks striking completely, and has no ground submissions. Muay Thai is lacking in ground grappling, and so forth.
> 
> However, those traditional MAs have great amounts of both striking and grappling, so it should have no issue in a MMA competition right?



Actually, it wasn't called MMA "because the styles...weren't 'complete' martial arts". It was called MMA because it was a Mixed Martial Arts Tournament (as opposed to a Karate Tournament or Judo Tournament). The concept, as I understand it, was to let each use their own style. Of course, some quickly realized they had an advantage if they cross-trained (or were already cross-trained), so then everyone had to cross-train to be competitive.

You have a belief, and I think there's some reasonable evidence to back you up. You just seem to need everyone to agree with you, in spite of the fact that there is significant evidence (from self-defense episodes) to support their belief, as well. I know people from TMA's - both competitive and non-competitive - who have used their skills for self-defense (and related uses, like bouncing and police work), some in life-threatening situations. I don't know as many MMA competitors, so it's not surprising I don't know any who have used it on the street. I certainly don't know any who tried and failed. 

Oddly (to me), I had a discussion about this six or seven years ago with a guy who had been a pretty serious MMA competitor for a few years, and he said he'd probably fall back on Greco-Roman wrestling, rather than the techniques he used successfully in his MMA fights. I'm not sure I agree with that choice, but that's his opinion of it, from the inside.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Depends on if they are fighting back.


No, it doesn't. Chance of success is statistical, not situational. The chance of someone fighting back after having their eye pulled out is pretty low, yielding a high chance of success.

Now the chance of success at pulling someone's eye out is pretty low, whether they are fighting back or not, given the structure of the eye and the musculature attached to it.

So, it depends which success you're looking at the chances of.


----------



## Touch Of Death

gpseymour said:


> Actually, it wasn't called MMA "because the styles...weren't 'complete' martial arts". It was called MMA because it was a Mixed Martial Arts Tournament (as opposed to a Karate Tournament or Judo Tournament). The concept, as I understand it, was to let each use their own style. Of course, some quickly realized they had an advantage if they cross-trained (or were already cross-trained), so then everyone had to cross-train to be competitive.
> 
> You have a belief, and I think there's some reasonable evidence to back you up. You just seem to need everyone to agree with you, in spite of the fact that there is significant evidence (from self-defense episodes) to support their belief, as well. I know people from TMA's - both competitive and non-competitive - who have used their skills for self-defense (and related uses, like bouncing and police work), some in life-threatening situations. I don't know as many MMA competitors, so it's not surprising I don't know any who have used it on the street. I certainly don't know any who tried and failed.
> 
> Oddly (to me), I had a discussion about this six or seven years ago with a guy who had been a pretty serious MMA competitor for a few years, and he said he'd probably fall back on Greco-Roman wrestling, rather than the techniques he used successfully in his MMA fights. I'm not sure I agree with that choice, but that's his opinion of it, from the inside.


That is very natural, in fact I think Greco-Roman wrestling was invented because, people don't like to get hit, and when it hits the fan, they can stop the pain, by simply moving in.


----------



## Touch Of Death

gpseymour said:


> No, it doesn't. Chance of success is statistical, not situational. The chance of someone fighting back after having their eye pulled out is pretty low, yielding a high chance of success.
> 
> Now the chance of success at pulling someone's eye out is pretty low, whether they are fighting back or not, given the structure of the eye and the musculature attached to it.
> 
> So, it depends which success you're looking at the chances of.


Well, since it is attached, and all, you just couldn't go very far, before throwing it back.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Touch Of Death said:


> That is very natural, in fact I think Greco-Roman wrestling was invented because, people don't like to get hit, and when it hits the fan, they can stop the pain, by simply moving in.



Sounds interesting. I know nothing of it - maybe time for a new bit of research. Thanks!


----------



## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> Hopefully after he looses he wont bang on about training for the street and instead learn some striking skills.



Sadly this is pretty common.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> I was referring to the stylized stance in the original picture he posted. The one that looked something like the "Crane Kick" from the original _Karate Kid _movie. That's what I haven't seen in anything combat-related. As I said in a later post, one-legged positions (especially as transitions) exist all over the place, and are certainly not exclusive to Crane style, or even to CMA.


.  Yes I know which picture.  That's where people get confused about what kung fu looks likes.  When you see it like that you are seeing 3 different applications being trained at the same time. It doesn't mean that they are all done at the same time.

Keep in mind that one kung fu technique may have 2 or more different applications which either use all parts of a techniques or only part of the techniques or changes the order in which the technique is done in the form.  This is what what is meant in kung fu when they say "don't fight with the form"

When I fight using kung fu, I don't fight with the form, I fight with the technique.  Just because Step 2 comes after Step 1 in the form doesn't mean it's going to follow the same order in the fight.  I don't know how to explain it any better than this.  Don't expect kung fu to look like what we see in the movies or snapshots of kung fu poses. That way the next time someone say "why don't we see stuff like this picture" then you'll be able to take a look at the parts of what is in that picture and determine if multiple techniques are being trained at the same time or if it actually a combination attack, like a 1-2 jab.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> .  Yes I know which picture.  That's where people get confused about what kung fu looks likes.  When you see it like that you are seeing 3 different applications being trained at the same time. It doesn't mean that they are all done at the same time.
> 
> Keep in mind that one kung fu technique may have 2 or more different applications which either use all parts of a techniques or only part of the techniques or changes the order in which the technique is done in the form.  This is what what is meant in kung fu when they say "don't fight with the form"
> 
> When I fight using kung fu, I don't fight with the form, I fight with the technique.  Just because Step 2 comes after Step 1 in the form doesn't mean it's going to follow the same order in the fight.  I don't know how to explain it any better than this.  Don't expect kung fu to look like what we see in the movies or snapshots of kung fu poses. That way the next time someone say "why don't we see stuff like this picture" then you'll be able to take a look at the parts of what is in that picture and determine if multiple techniques are being trained at the same time or if it actually a combination attack, like a 1-2 jab.



We have some similar issues with the Classical Techniques in NGA - they are actually kata, and when we get into the applications, things can look and work very differently.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> Sadly this is pretty common.



Happens in mma a bit. You get bashed in boxing and come out with the "but I could have taken him down" comment.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> We have some similar issues with the Classical Techniques in NGA - they are actually kata, and when we get into the applications, things can look and work very differently.



Depends on your reference. If form follows function then yes. If it dosent then you obviously don't understand the kata well enough.

There seem to be two schools of thought on that issue.

(Late explanation on that earlier comment I made)


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> No, it doesn't. Chance of success is statistical, not situational. The chance of someone fighting back after having their eye pulled out is pretty low, yielding a high chance of success.
> 
> Now the chance of success at pulling someone's eye out is pretty low, whether they are fighting back or not, given the structure of the eye and the musculature attached to it.
> 
> So, it depends which success you're looking at the chances of.



You are less likely to get the shot if you are being punched in the face. It is reference to that concept where your partner fires a flaccid punch and stands there while you unleash the deadly.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> That would be the most logical conclusion


Only if your logic is flawed, hasty generalization and all.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Depends on your reference. If form follows function then yes. If it dosent then you obviously don't understand the kata well enough.
> 
> There seem to be two schools of thought on that issue.
> 
> (Late explanation on that earlier comment I made)


That still doesn't explain your "form follows function" comment. That's an engineering motto, which basically means that the form of a thing must flow from the function it is meant to serve, rather than being entirely for looks (in cases where the latter might make it less functional).

So, if you mean by that phrase that movement and stance (in MA) should all be based upon the need of the application, I agree entirely. If that's not essentially what you meant, please let me know.

As for your reference to our kata, your "form follows function" doesn't really seem to have any relevance. The kata version of our techniques in many cases has no true combat function. I'll pick one for explanation. The Classical Technique is called "Unbendable Arm", and starts from a static same-side grip (so uke's left hand gripping nage's right, for instance, and not crossing their bodies). The response involves slightly complicated footwork, specific angles of movement, an uke who hangs on as if your arm were worth keeping while standing still as if he were standing on a land mine, and multiple weight shifts. If I showed it to you, you'd say there's no way that's a self-defense move. And you'd be right. The point of that kata is to work on weight shifts, double-weighting an uke, dropping the one point (center of gravity), practicing the mechanics of an arm that doesn't bend without tension, and several other things. In application, very little is the same. Typically when we use Unbendable Arm in application, it's a very simple unbending, not-tense arm being used to off-balance the attacker (shoved in his face while entering, for example), and most of the rest of the "Technique" is absent. That's how several of our Classical Techniques work, though UA is clearly the most distant from application.

Oh, and before you say something so definitive about someone's art (if you don't see it, you don't understand the kata), maybe you ought to know at least a little about the art? I know that might be true in your art (I know it is in many, as I've heard from experienced practitioners in those), but our kata are often not nearly as deep. For instance, unlike what I've been shown/explained in some CMA kata, there are not multiple movements and options in a single point of our kata. There are not multiple levels in them - they are straightforward, for the most part (again, UA being the most notable exception). I've actually been working on some new kata with multiple movements in them, to build a training tool that delivers some of those benefits, but they are not currently in the art.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I think anybody who enters a MMA/NHB competition without significant cross-training, and more important, specific training geared to the particular form of competition - is going to get destroyed, regardless of what their base art happens to be.



I've actually been told by several instructors in various arts that they don't consider their arts as stand-alone arts, in the first place. (One was a BJJ instructor, another from some style of Karate I've forgotten.) To them, their style was about something specific (BJJ for ground fighting, for instance), and they expected students to seek other bits in other arts, even if only in occasional seminars. Of course, I know other instructors in some of those same styles who either believe their style is fairly complete for what they teach it for (some including self-defense), and others who have adopted information from other styles they studied to bring in what they felt was missing. I do know that in some Japanese TMA, if the training history actually goes back to the samurai, the style may have originated with the expectation of certain existing experience among the students, and may not have taught it for that reason - it wasn't necessary if they already knew it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> You are less likely to get the shot if you are being punched in the face. It is reference to that concept where your partner fires a flaccid punch and stands there while you unleash the deadly.


I'm not sure how this is a response to my post...


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> When all else fails they resort to the classic arguments that they're either above fighting in a cage, they have no desire to seek "fortune and fame", or that their martial art of choice is too deadly for competitive fighting.


Your art is not above fighting in a cage,, your martial art is not too deadly for competitive fighting, how rich and famous are you?


----------



## RTKDCMB

Azulx said:


> Is the topi,c the effectiveness of the crane stance in a fight?


Daniel Laruso did alright with it.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Azulx said:


> In my first collegiate karate sparring tournament, in my semi-final match, I was one point away from winning. Now I am not aware of the chinese traditional crane stance, but we do use the one leg stance where the other leg is in the air chambered for a front kick. As I approached my opponent I raised my leg and left it locked in the one-leg stance ( which is what we call it). It became difficult for my opponent to strike my body , because my chambered leg was blocking, as far as my hand placement it remained in our traditional sparring stance, one hand by the ear, the other right under the eye . With the chambered leg I transitioned it into a twisting kick which landed right on my opponents chin. In point sparring I found that the one leg stance was practical and worked. It was different, and not everyone is used to it.


Wasn't that the ending to the Karate Kid?


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> You are less likely to get the shot if you are being punched in the face. It is reference to that concept where your partner fires a flaccid punch and stands there while you unleash the deadly.



That video is a prime example of what happens when you don't do full contact sparring.


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> Your art is not above fighting in a cage,, your martial art is not too deadly for competitive fighting, how rich and famous are you?



My art is also common in the MMA world. Again, *everyone* in MMA does Bjj, so a Bjj guy winning a few amateur fights is no big deal.

A traditional Kung Fu guy winning amateur MMA fights? An amateur Kung Fu guy competing onTUF and beating MMA fighters? Yeah, they can write their own ticket.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> That video is a prime example of what happens when you don't do full contact sparring.


Really?


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> Really?



I'm not surprised that you think that's a real fight.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> I'm not surprised that you think that's a real fight.


I'm not surprised that you would deflect when proven wrong.


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> I'm not surprised that you would deflect when proven wrong.



Uh, how was I proven wrong? I said that the first video showed crappy technique and fantasy, and you show a video of a phoney fighting match showing more crappy, nonsensical technique to "prove me wrong"?

Okay....


----------



## Tez3

Isn't bringing up Ashida Kim in a martial arts debate/discussion the martial arts equivalent of Godwin's Law? I mean, really, who ever brings him into a serious conversation?


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> ...guys like Kron Gracie, Damian Maia, or Ryan Hall.


who?  Should I know who these people are?  Bah, I just don't give a rat's ***.  



> You, on the other hand come from a style that is nonexistent in MMA. <snip>... and you say that you have a better striking method than MMA/Boxing and it all comes from ancient Chinese methods?



Yup, I do say exactly that.  And it's a method you will never understand.

I don't claim that I myself am skilled enough to defeat these MMA people, I don't actually care one way or the other.  But yeah, my methodology is superior.  



> I simply find it odd that you and no one else you train with have ANY desire to be fighters. <snip> and just rather live like a bum in the mountain.



I actually have a wife, a son, a house overlooking the California coastline, two cars and a job with a large company making decent money. I'm no bum living in the mountain.

How about you?  have you moved out of your mother's basement yet?


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> It appears to be a variation on the crane stance, given his "beak hand" and the raised leg.



Um... I actually train in the Tibetan white crane method.  We don't do that...


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> who?  Should I know who these people are?  Bah, I just don't give a rat's ***.



Since that quote wasn't directed towards you, I wouldn't expect you to.



> Yup, I do say exactly that.  And it's a method you will never understand.
> 
> I don't claim that I myself am skilled enough to defeat these MMA people, I don't actually care one way or the other.  But yeah,* my methodology is superior. *




Of course it is.



> I actually have a wife, a son, a house overlooking the California coastline, two cars and a job with a large company making decent money. I'm no bum living in the mountain.



Of course you do.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Since that quote wasn't directed towards you, I wouldn't expect you to.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you do.


So, have you moved out of your mother's basement yet?


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> So, have you moved out of your mother's basement yet?



I'd rather talk about how your crane style methodology is better than the methodology coming from MMA.

Are you up to it?


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> I'd rather talk about how your crane style methodology is better than the methodology coming from MMA.
> 
> Are you up to it?


I'd like to know if you've moved out of your mothers basement yet.  And I'd like to see video on YouTube to prove it, if you claim that you have.  After all, if it isn't on YouTube, it didn't happen.  We all know that to be a fact.


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> I'd like to know if you've moved out of your mothers basement yet.  And I'd like to see video on YouTube to prove it, if you claim that you have.  After all, if it isn't on YouTube, it didn't happen.  We all know that to be a fact.



I take that as a "no" then?

Can't say I'm surprised.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> I take that as a "no" then?
> 
> Can't say I'm surprised.


Let me know when you move out of your mother's basement.


----------



## Azulx

RTKDCMB said:


> Wasn't that the ending to the Karate Kid?



Lol, it was also the ending of Lyoto Machida vs. Randy Couture.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> That video is a prime example of what happens when you don't do full contact sparring.



I've seen folks who didn't do full-contact sparring, and none of them did this kind of lazy stuff.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Uh, how was I proven wrong? I said that the first video showed crappy technique and fantasy, and you show a video of a phoney fighting match showing more crappy, nonsensical technique to "prove me wrong"?
> 
> Okay....



Interesting - it looks like a pre-arranged outcome. Some decent hits a few times (unless their acting was better than in WWE), but it certainly looks partly choreographed given the repeated throws. So, can we count heavy-hitting pre-arranged stuff as "sparring"? We haven't really defined what sparring is. If we assume (as appears to be the case) that this was very loosely choreographed (providing some key opening, pre-arranged ending), is the part in between valid sparring at any level? If we accept that it's sparring (and I think we can for this sentence, at least), then we have to accept that sparring doesn't remove the garbage we saw in your original posting - that requires GOOD sparring.

That would be in keeping with what I know of all training: none of it is terribly useful unless it's good. That would hold true for kata, solo practice, practicing specific attacks and responses, shadow boxing, strength training, endurance training, and nearly everything else I can think of.
*
Hey, look, I'm back on the topic of sparring!*


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Uh, how was I proven wrong?



You displayed Ashida Kim as an example of what happens when someone doesn't spar full contact so I showed you a video of Ashida Kim sparring full contact, pretty obvious really.



Hanzou said:


> I said that the first video showed crappy technique and fantasy, and you show a video of a phoney fighting match showing more crappy, nonsensical technique to "prove me wrong"?



By picking the worst example you could find you were attempting to imply that Ashidia Kim is the inevitable result of never sparring full contact, you failed.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> I'm not surprised that you think that's a real fight.



What about it is fake?


----------



## Ironbear24

Flying Crane said:


> Let me know when you move out of your mother's basement.



How mature of you.


----------



## pgsmith

Ironbear24 said:


> What about it is fake?



  If it involves Ashida Kim, then the answer is "everything". 



Ironbear24 said:


> How mature of you.



  You do realize that kids are the only ones that ever say that right?


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> That still doesn't explain your "form follows function" comment. That's an engineering motto, which basically means that the form of a thing must flow from the function it is meant to serve, rather than being entirely for looks (in cases where the latter might make it less functional).
> 
> So, if you mean by that phrase that movement and stance (in MA) should all be based upon the need of the application, I agree entirely. If that's not essentially what you meant, please let me know.
> 
> As for your reference to our kata, your "form follows function" doesn't really seem to have any relevance. The kata version of our techniques in many cases has no true combat function. I'll pick one for explanation. The Classical Technique is called "Unbendable Arm", and starts from a static same-side grip (so uke's left hand gripping nage's right, for instance, and not crossing their bodies). The response involves slightly complicated footwork, specific angles of movement, an uke who hangs on as if your arm were worth keeping while standing still as if he were standing on a land mine, and multiple weight shifts. If I showed it to you, you'd say there's no way that's a self-defense move. And you'd be right. The point of that kata is to work on weight shifts, double-weighting an uke, dropping the one point (center of gravity), practicing the mechanics of an arm that doesn't bend without tension, and several other things. In application, very little is the same. Typically when we use Unbendable Arm in application, it's a very simple unbending, not-tense arm being used to off-balance the attacker (shoved in his face while entering, for example), and most of the rest of the "Technique" is absent. That's how several of our Classical Techniques work, though UA is clearly the most distant from application.
> 
> Oh, and before you say something so definitive about someone's art (if you don't see it, you don't understand the kata), maybe you ought to know at least a little about the art? I know that might be true in your art (I know it is in many, as I've heard from experienced practitioners in those), but our kata are often not nearly as deep. For instance, unlike what I've been shown/explained in some CMA kata, there are not multiple movements and options in a single point of our kata. There are not multiple levels in them - they are straightforward, for the most part (again, UA being the most notable exception). I've actually been working on some new kata with multiple movements in them, to build a training tool that delivers some of those benefits, but they are not currently in the art.



Two schools of thought on the issue of kata. Yours is different to others.it is important to know people think differently about things. That way when we have a discussion we are not discussing different things.

So here I am not talking specifically about your kata.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure how this is a response to my post...



Moves that attack the eye are considered inherently better than moves that don't but it is a misconception in that the person still needs to reach that eye while protecting his own.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Isn't bringing up Ashida Kim in a martial arts debate/discussion the martial arts equivalent of Godwin's Law? I mean, really, who ever brings him into a serious conversation?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Moves that attack the eye are considered inherently better than moves that don't but it is a misconception in that the person still needs to reach that eye while protecting his own.



Since my point was that removing an eye in combat would be damnably difficult (if even theoretically possible) - to such a point that the person fighting back doesn't measurably decrease your likelihood of being able to do so. It was a bit tongue-in-cheek, though technically accurate.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> Interesting - it looks like a pre-arranged outcome. Some decent hits a few times (unless their acting was better than in WWE), but it certainly looks partly choreographed given the repeated throws. So, can we count heavy-hitting pre-arranged stuff as "sparring"? We haven't really defined what sparring is. If we assume (as appears to be the case) that this was very loosely choreographed (providing some key opening, pre-arranged ending), is the part in between valid sparring at any level? If we accept that it's sparring (and I think we can for this sentence, at least), then we have to accept that sparring doesn't remove the garbage we saw in your original posting - that requires GOOD sparring.
> 
> That would be in keeping with what I know of all training: none of it is terribly useful unless it's good. That would hold true for kata, solo practice, practicing specific attacks and responses, shadow boxing, strength training, endurance training, and nearly everything else I can think of.
> *
> Hey, look, I'm back on the topic of sparring!*



No, we count fake, choreographed fights as fake choreographed fights. That video has little to nothing to do with sparring.


----------



## Hanzou

RTKWCMB said:


> You displayed Ishida Kim as an example of what happens when someone doesn't spar full contact so I showed you a video of Ishida Kim sparring full contact, pretty obvious really.



He wasn't sparring full contact. He was performing an act for a crowd. It's no different than WWE wrestling, or a carnival show, everything is scripted and plotted out ahead of time, and the stunts are rehearsed in order to wow the crowds.

Again, I'm not surprised that you fell for it.



> By picking the worst example you could find you were attempting to imply that Ashidia Kim is the inevitable result of never sparring full contact, you failed.



Well first off I didn't find the example, Drop Bear did. I simply commented on it, since Ashida Kim is the epitome of fake/phoney martial arts.



Ironbear24 said:


> What about it is fake?



Just about everything about that was fake. Again, its a choreographed fight show no different than what you see in WWE wrasslin'.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Since my point was that removing an eye in combat would be damnably difficult (if even theoretically possible) - to such a point that the person fighting back doesn't measurably decrease your likelihood of being able to do so. It was a bit tongue-in-cheek, though technically accurate.



Fair enough.


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> Your art is not above fighting in a cage,, your martial art is not too deadly for competitive fighting, how rich and famous are you?



Because they are better fighters than me at that level. They are better fighters than hanzou at that level and we would get bashed. I wouldn't look forward to try to do them in the street either.

Sparring these guys at any real pace puts me at a real risk of being crippled because I am not at that level and don't have the defence.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> He wasn't sparring full contact. He was performing an act for a crowd. It's no different than WWE wrestling, or a carnival show, everything is scripted and plotted out ahead of time, and the stunts are rehearsed in order to wow the crowds.
> 
> Again, I'm not surprised that you fell for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Well first off I didn't find the example, Drop Bear did. I simply commented on it, since Ashida Kim is the epitome of fake/phoney martial arts.
> 
> 
> 
> Just about everything about that was fake. Again, its a choreographed fight show no different than what you see in WWE wrasslin'.



Around the middle and toward the end it seemed like there was "throw me, ok now you throw me now" kind of bit going. I wasn't sure if this was coincidental or as you said. A show.

Does this fighter have negative reputation for doing this?


----------



## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> Because they are better fighters than me at that level. They are better fighters than hanzou at that level and we would get bashed. I wouldn't look forward to try to do them in the street either.



Odds are they won't fight in street. Street fighting is just  idiotic and frowned upon.
I hope you aren't just saying these guys are pros and I will never try to get to their level.

If that is the case you are only creating your own glass ceiling.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> Around the middle and toward the end it seemed like there was "throw me, ok now you throw me now" kind of bit going. I wasn't sure if this was coincidental or as you said. A show.
> 
> Does this fighter have negative reputation for doing this?








Enjoy.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> Enjoy.



What the @#$% did I just watch?


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> Odds are they won't fight in street. Street fighting is just  idiotic and frowned upon.
> I hope you aren't just saying these guys are pros and I will never try to get to their level.
> 
> If that is the case you are only creating your own glass ceiling.




My success rate is a combination of lack of effort and natural talent. So yes I do create my own glass ceiling. And I do that intentionally. This is because I have other things that are more important to me the martial arts.

In comparison I have a friend who pretends to work late so he can sneak in hill sprints and his wife won't know.


----------



## Tez3

I propose Hanzou and dropbear take up Ashida Kim's challenge. We need to know who's martial arts is the best.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> I propose Hanzou and dropbear take up Ashida Kim's challenge. We need to know who's martial arts is the best.




apparently you can't,and people have tried. He puts too many conditions on the fight until it collapses under its own beurocracy and then claimed victory.

Talk:Ashida Kim/Archive 1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ashida Kim Called OUT and Punked!


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> apparently you can't,and people have tried. He puts too many conditions on the fight until it collapses under its own beurocracy and then claimed victory.
> 
> Talk:Ashida Kim/Archive 1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Ashida Kim Called OUT and Punked!



and now you see the pointlessness of posting *anything* by him.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> and now you see the pointlessness of posting *anything* by him.



Not pointless at all. It is a classic manipulation of the street sport debate.

Ashida kim is why we should Spar.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Ironbear24 said:


> Odds are they won't fight in street. Street fighting is just  idiotic and frowned upon.
> I hope you aren't just saying these guys are pros and I will never try to get to their level.
> 
> If that is the case you are only creating your own glass ceiling.



I disagree on that latter point. It's mostly a matter of 1) did he start soon enough to get in the training time, 2) does he have enough natural talent to start with from wherever he started, and 3) is he willing to put in the time, pain, and effort needed. Most of us can readily acknowledge that we are going to fall short on that last one - I simply am not interested in training as much as would be required, even if I were young enough to go that route. That's not creating a glass ceiling, it's acknowledging one's own priorities, and that's a good thing.

Unless he _is_ actually saying he can't reach their level just because it's their level. Then you're spot on.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Not pointless at all. It is a classic manipulation of the street sport debate.
> 
> Ashida kim is why we should Spar.


I disagree. Bad sparring, with an instructor who doesn't know or acknowledge his shortcomings, can produce someone who thinks they are better than they are. I've seen a demonstration by a school that has competition trophies, where they demonstrated supposed SD responses. Their strikes were awful, and I can't see how they possibly win fights. The FedEx drop box I use is right outside their school, and I've seen them sparring in there - or what they believe is sparring.

Again, good training is what's needed. Sparring is a great component - perhaps even a nearly necessary component for effective SD training - but it is not a cure-all.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I disagree on that latter point. It's mostly a matter of 1) did he start soon enough to get in the training time, 2) does he have enough natural talent to start with from wherever he started, and 3) is he willing to put in the time, pain, and effort needed. Most of us can readily acknowledge that we are going to fall short on that last one - I simply am not interested in training as much as would be required, even if I were young enough to go that route. That's not creating a glass ceiling, it's acknowledging one's own priorities, and that's a good thing.
> 
> Unless he _is_ actually saying he can't reach their level just because it's their level. Then you're spot on.



I have had friends who have come from nothing to become elite fighters. It is definitely dooable. You just can't do it and treat martial arts like a hobby.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I disagree. Bad sparring, with an instructor who doesn't know or acknowledge his shortcomings, can produce someone who thinks they are better than they are. I've seen a demonstration by a school that has competition trophies, where they demonstrated supposed SD responses. Their strikes were awful, and I can't see how they possibly win fights. The FedEx drop box I use is right outside their school, and I've seen them sparring in there - or what they believe is sparring.
> 
> Again, good training is what's needed. Sparring is a great component - perhaps even a nearly necessary component for effective SD training - but it is not a cure-all.



Good point. You need to Spar people who are good.

Otherwise I was going back to topic. If this was a thread on drills then I would focus more on that aspect.

Bad sparring is easy to find. I generally just pick a sport and then look for a belt grading.

So muay Thai and black belt gives me this.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I have had friends who have come from nothing to become elite fighters. It is definitely dooable. You just can't do it and treat martial arts like a hobby.


Of course they have - it's doable at some point. Every champion was, at one point, "nothing". It's a matter of when you start (at age 40, it's too late unless you are a truly gifted person, as far as healing factor, etc.), where you start from (if you're totally clumsy, it takes longer to get totally good), and how much you are willing to put into it. I never said someone couldn't reach those levels - just that most of us admit we aren't going to do what would be necessary (the third part), regardless of the other 2.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> That video has little to nothing to do with sparring.


Apart from the fact that it was still contact sparring, choreographed or not.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> I propose Hanzou and dropbear take up Ashida Kim's challenge. We need to know who's martial arts is the best.


Well I will give Ashida Kim one point in his favor over Hanzou. We have actual evidence that he does martial arts of some form.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Ironbear24 said:


> What the @#$% did I just watch?


Well it certainly was not evidence of what happens when you don't spar full contact.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> Ashida kim is why we should Spar.


No, Ashida Kim is why we should train honestly with a competent school and instructor.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> He wasn't sparring full contact. He was performing an act for a crowd. It's no different than WWE wrestling, or a carnival show, everything is scripted and plotted out ahead of time, and the stunts are rehearsed in order to wow the crowds.
> 
> Again, I'm not surprised that you fell for it.



And again I am not surprised that you would find something to complain about and explain away when your example does not make the point you thought it would.



Hanzou said:


> Well first off I didn't find the example, Drop Bear did. I simply commented on it, since Ashida Kim is the epitome of fake/phoney martial arts.



You did not simply comment on it you attempted to use it as an example of what happens when you don't spar full contact. You may have not been the one who found it but you were the one who presented it as a false equivalency between phony/fake martial arts and martial arts that don't spar full contact.


----------



## Buka

Having been away from this thread for a bit, I just watched the two Ashida Kim videos.

I grudgingly admit I am more than a little jealous.


----------



## Ironbear24

RTKDCMB said:


> Well it certainly was not evidence of what happens when you don't spar full contact.



It was evidence of bullshido.


----------



## marques

abe_tz said:


> Can one only become a good fighter and be prepared for a fight if they spar? Or is simply learning the form and ingraining those movements into one's reflexes just as efficient?



To fight in a combat sport? It is absolutely required. With different aims and intensities...
Other ends, I'm not sure.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> It was evidence of bullshido.



Which spawns when a martial art isn't properly vetted. Typically styles with a heavy sparring component tend to do just fine in the vetting process.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> It was evidence of bullshido.



Well no. Ashida kim could be a brilliant and competent martial artist. He just chooses not to show it on YouTube. Because he is not interested in the attention.

Not everything is on you tube you know.

(See what I did there?)


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Which spawns when a martial art isn't properly vetted. Typically styles with a heavy sparring component tend to do just fine in the vetting process.



It is still layered. You have to have a system that actually works as well.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> It is still layered. You have to have a system that actually works as well.



Sure, but a fighting/sparring intensive style can work out its flaws a lot more quickly.

How? Because they quickly figure out what works and doesn't work. A baptism by fire if you will.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Sure, but a fighting/sparring intensive style can work out its flaws a lot more quickly.
> 
> How? Because they quickly figure out what works and doesn't work. A baptism by fire if you will.



Depends on the quality of the guy you are fighting.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Depends on the quality of the guy you are fighting.



Absolutely. You should fight as wide a group of people as possible. MMA guys, Boxers, Karate guys, whatever you can. You shouldn't restrict it to people within your own style.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> Absolutely. You should fight as wide a group of people as possible. MMA guys, Boxers, Karate guys, whatever you can. You shouldn't restrict it to people within your own style.


One should test his

- punching skill in boxing (such as golden glove boxing),
- punching/kicking skill in MT, kickboxing, ...
- wrestling skill in Shuai Chiao, Judo, wrestling, ...
- ground skill in BJJ,
- punching/kicking/wrestling skill in Sanda, Sanshou, ...
- punching/kicking/wrestling/ground skill in MMA,

in order to understand where exactly he may truly stand.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One should test his
> 
> - punching skill in boxing (such as golden glove boxing),
> - punching/kicking skill in MT, kickboxing, ...
> - wrestling skill in Shuai Chiao, Judo, wrestling, ...
> - ground skill in BJJ,
> - punching/kicking/wrestling skill in Sanda, Sanshou, ...
> - punching/kicking/wrestling/ground skill in MMA,
> 
> in order to understand where exactly he may truly stand.


That'd take way more time than I have for martial arts. As an ideal, sure.


----------



## Hanzou

Borrowed from another thread:






A pretty good representation of someone mostly doing sparring training, and someone mostly doing form training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Borrowed from another thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A pretty good representation of someone mostly doing sparring training, and someone mostly doing form training.


I don't see the evidence of the latter - it just looks like he was outclassed, to me.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> I don't see the evidence of the latter - it just looks like he was outclassed, to me.



He was outclassed because of his training.

His training encompassed a lot of forms.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> He was outclassed because of his training.
> 
> His training encompassed a lot of forms.


My point was that I don't see anything in there that indicates he trained a lot of forms nor that he only trained in them. I know nothing of that art/style, so I can only respond to what I see in the video. What I see issomeone who was outclassed, whatever the reason.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> I don't see the evidence of the latter - it just looks like he was outclassed, to me.


I think there's a lot to be said about this video.  To me it looks like form training isn't being don correctly, because he's moving at the same speed as a person would if they were doing the form.  For me correct from practice should consist of Form with Technique, Form with Power, Form With Speed, and From with Speed and Power. The form has to be practiced this way in order to be able to use the technique at the appropriate speed. His punches and kicks were too slow and I could tell that there wasn't any connection of power so he was basically using only the arms to generate the power.

The second issue I see is that the guy needs to work on his stance training because his footing was all over the place. Had his footing been better he would have been able to make use of some sweeps

If he does spar, then his sparring is lazy or one dimensional.  He was gassed out way too soon which makes me think he doesn't go hard on his forms because the forms alone should be building his cardiovascular endurance.  Continuous sparring will suck the energy out of you if you don't have that endurance.

The biggest problem that I have with this entire video is that for CMAs the fighting should be representative of your fighting system and I didn't see any baguazhang techniques in this fight.  You can even hear from his coaching crowd "circle, circle"   Had it not been for the title no one here would have known it was baguazhang or even some type of kung fu.

Last but not least.  Lack of understanding of the fighting application of the form. The only way to get this type of experience is to spar using the techniques.  Understanding comes from doing with knowledge and not just knowing what an application is.

What I did like the most was the Muay Thai fighter saw that he was the better fighter and started pulling the power off his attacks. At that point it was just an opportunity for the Muay Thai fighter to work on some of his other techniques.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> My point was that I don't see anything in there that indicates he trained a lot of forms nor that he only trained in them. I know nothing of that art/style, so I can only respond to what I see in the video. What I see issomeone who was outclassed, whatever the reason.


Training forms and knowing how to apply the technique in fighting are 2 different worlds.  Even if he trained forms he didn't train the application of those forms properly because there was no kung fu at all in what he did.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> The biggest problem that I have with this entire video is that for CMAs the fighting should be representative of your fighting system and I didn't see any baguazhang techniques in this fight.  You can even hear from his coaching crowd "circle, circle"   Had it not been for the title no one here would have known it was baguazhang or even some type of kung fu.



This. I think this is what I was seeing earlier. It just looks like someone poorly trained. I don't know much of CMA, but I'd expect to see something I recognize as not Western or Japanese. All I saw was weak sparring, with none of the hints of movements I'd recognize from what I'd call "typical" CMA - stances, circles, anything. 

Is this just another case of a poor example of an art against a better example of another? We all know there's plenty of that to be found in videos.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> My point was that I don't see anything in there that indicates he trained a lot of forms nor that he only trained in them. I know nothing of that art/style, so I can only respond to what I see in the video.



Read up on it, Baguazhang is quite a lovely style in terms of forms. Lots of circular movement, and quite an interesting theory on fighting.

In fact, many say that Ueshiba incorporated some Bagua principles into Aikido.



> What I see is someone who was outclassed, whatever the reason.



Then how do you think he was outclassed? Was the MT guy simply THAT much better than him?

My argument is simple; Muay Thai training is typically body toughening, hard contact, lots of cardio, and lots of sparring.
Internal Kung Fu training is typically lots of forms, and lots of philosophy.

The Muay Thai fighter is going to learn how to punch something, and how to take a punch. They're going to toughen their shins in order to leg check someone and and perform devastating leg kicks. They're probably going to supplement their training with weight and cardio training in order to compete in the ring.

The Bagua fighter is going to do forms and listen to philosophy about how to build their internal energy. Why lift weights when they're taught that power is generated from the ligaments and sinews? Why do cardio when everything is about being relaxed and calm? Why spar when the techniques are supposedly "too deadly" to mess around with?

Make them fight each other (in any context), and you get the results above. Crazy thing is they even told the MT fighter than he couldn't use elbows and knees. Imagine how much worse this fight would have went if those were allowed....


----------



## Hanzou

Here's another great example;






Goju Ryu vs Xingyi stylist. Both show off competent form work, but when they start to actually fight one another, everything falls apart.

Put either one of them in the ring with that MT fighter from earlier, and they would do about as well as that Bagua fellow.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> This. I think this is what I was seeing earlier. It just looks like someone poorly trained. I don't know much of CMA, but I'd expect to see something I recognize as not Western or Japanese. All I saw was weak sparring, with none of the hints of movements I'd recognize from what I'd call "typical" CMA - stances, circles, anything.
> 
> Is this just another case of a poor example of an art against a better example of another? We all know there's plenty of that to be found in videos.




A fight can also be a big nasty rude shock if you are not ready for it.

By the way the CMA fighter broke mentally. As much as people like to believe they are ready for life or death fights quite often they are not equipped to deal with that sort of punishment and have the will power to keep pushing on.

Sparring is one way of overcoming that issue.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> This. I think this is what I was seeing earlier. It just looks like someone poorly trained. I don't know much of CMA, but I'd expect to see something I recognize as not Western or Japanese. All I saw was weak sparring, with none of the hints of movements I'd recognize from what I'd call "typical" CMA - stances, circles, anything.
> 
> Is this just another case of a poor example of an art against a better example of another? We all know there's plenty of that to be found in videos.


 yep and I really hate those videos because they are often seen as a representation of a fighting system, when in reality it isn't.  How can we view someone as a representation of a fighting system when they literally aren't using anything from that fighting system.  

This video is of 2 students learning how to use their kung fu to fight.  The Jow Ga student is in the white shirt.  You can hear (I'm assuming) his Sifu in the background saying "Use technique from form"..  "no boxing.. no boxing hand."   The sparring isn't great but that's what every student should be trying to do; Using the techniques from the system. Once these guys learn what technique and when to use it, they'll be able to spar against someone like the Muay Thai student in the other video and you'll be able to tell that they are doing kung fu.





Losing is at its worst when a person says they do kung fu only to lose the fight without having done any kung fu.


----------



## JowGaWolf

I agree he was definitely outclassed and it wasn't because of what he was training in in.  It was because he didn't know how to use it or anything else against an opponent like that.  Even the Muay Thai fighter knew the guy was at a lower skill level after the first minute you can see him change the power of his attacks.  Which is the right thing to do when you are at a much higher skill level. 
These guys sparring are using the same fighting system and it's clear to see that they are of a higher skill level.  You can actually see how the technique of moving in a circle makes a harder target to hit. You can literally see kung fu techniques.  I actually saw one similar to one that I do.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Then how do you think he was outclassed? Was the MT guy simply THAT much better than him?



Yes, he was, but I don't know the reason, since I don't know either guy's background. I don't know whether it was the art, length of training, style of training, amount of training/intensity, difference in instructors, or what. Your assertion that MT would always prevail may be true - I simply said I wasn't familiar with the other art. The only thing I can clearly see in the video is that one fighter seems disciplined and shows good form, while the other does not. I don't see evidence of the claimed forms training, since I don't see anything I'd call good form even before he got hit the first time, which is what I'd expect from someone heavily (and well-) trained in forms.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> A fight can also be a big nasty rude shock if you are not ready for it.
> 
> By the way the CMA fighter broke mentally. As much as people like to believe they are ready for life or death fights quite often they are not equipped to deal with that sort of punishment and have the will power to keep pushing on.
> 
> Sparring is one way of overcoming that issue.


Yes, it is. It - at the very least - gets folks over the shock of getting hit, which can be really distracting the first few times.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> A pretty good representation of someone mostly doing sparring training, and someone mostly doing form training.



That is just an assumption. It may be a pretty good representation of someone that is more skillful; than someone else.



Hanzou said:


> My argument is simple; Muay Thai training is typically body toughening, hard contact, lots of cardio, and lots of sparring.



The bagua guy didn't seem to phased by the leg kicks from those conditioned shins.



Hanzou said:


> Make them fight each other (in any context), and you get the results above.



Another assumption.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Here's another great example;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Goju Ryu vs Xingyi stylist. Both show off competent form work, but when they start to actually fight one another, everything falls apart.
> 
> Put either one of them in the ring with that MT fighter from earlier, and they would do about as well as that Bagua fellow.



In this one, you can see both at least showing hints of their style. Neither appears to have done much realistic sparring, though, and they close distances ineffectively. I didn't think either form was great. I don't know the CMA forms at all, but his seemed to lack fluidity which I expected. The Goju guy had reasonable form, if a bit stiff (though I think that's actually how that form is supposed to be). My biggest issue with him was that his kiai (the shout) seemed to come entirely from the throat, which could indicate poor breath control - a real problem for sparring.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> I agree he was definitely outclassed and it wasn't because of what he was training in in.  It was because he didn't know how to use it or anything else against an opponent like that.  Even the Muay Thai fighter knew the guy was at a lower skill level after the first minute you can see him change the power of his attacks.  Which is the right thing to do when you are at a much higher skill level.
> These guys sparring are using the same fighting system and it's clear to see that they are of a higher skill level.  You can actually see how the technique of moving in a circle makes a harder target to hit. You can literally see kung fu techniques.  I actually saw one similar to one that I do.



Interesting that that video is used as an example of good Bagua, when in another thread it was considered sub-par Bagua by other CMA practitioners.



gpseymour said:


> Yes, he was, but I don't know the reason, since I don't know either guy's background.



The reason is *training*.


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> That is just an assumption. It may be a pretty good representation of someone that is more skillful; than someone else.



Again, exactly what makes someone more skillful than someone else?



> The bagua guy didn't seem to phased by the leg kicks from those conditioned shins.



We must have been watching a different video. The leg kicks devastated the mobility of the CMA practitioner and forced him to close the distance, where he ate multiple punches.




> Another assumption.



How exactly would them fighting outside on the concrete change anything?


----------



## Buka

Say you've only trained Jiu-jitsu. And you go into a boxing ring using only boxing rules. 
Reverse it, you only box and go into a jits match only using jits rules.

You can pretty much replace boxing and jits with whatever styles you want.

Look at the first UFC competition. It came about from one man's question of an age old fight question, who would win, a boxer or a wrestler? It then expanded (before the first UFC) to a style vs style tournament with very few rules. But even that wasn't a panacea to answer the question because the levels of talent of the respective fighters was not equal. The reason they weren't equal was because the promoter, Art Davie, couldn't get anyone to fight.(seriously, he tried)

I would have loved to have seen people like Mike Tyson, Dan Gable, Ernesto Hoost, Jean-Yves Theriault etc in that first UFC. That would have been one hell of a show. But that wasn't about to happen.

Even if it did......what the UFC has morphed into since, is a specific sport. Regardless of style, you aren't going anywhere if you are not training specifically for UFC rules and reality. It has nothing what-so-ever to do with what your main style might or might not be.

You can look at all the videoed fights you want, it really doesn't answer the question being asked, which is.....oh, hell, I forget what the hell the question is. 

Carry on.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Internal Kung Fu Conditioning is the same as external conditioning.


Hanzou said:


> Interesting that that video is used as an example of good Bagua, when in another thread it was considered sub-par Bagua by other CMA practitioners.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is *training*.


If your fighting looks like your fighting system then it's a good representation  of that system.  How well you use that system is a good representation of one's fighting ability.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Interesting that that video is used as an example of good Bagua, when in another thread it was considered sub-par Bagua by other CMA practitioners.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is *training*.


That's an assumption (possibly valid), of which I have no evidence. It could be he's not experienced enough. Of course, if I translate that to amount of training, then it fits your conclusion, so let's go with that: it's probably either amount of training, quality/intensity of training, or type of training, or some combination of the three.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> Internal Kung Fu Conditioning is the same as external conditioning.
> If your fighting looks like your fighting system then it's a good representation  of that system.  How well you use that system is a good representation of one's fighting ability.



That only works if your fighting system actually teaches you how to fight.


----------



## Flying Crane

gpseymour said:


> That's an assumption (possibly valid), of which I have no evidence. It could be he's not experienced enough. Of course, if I translate that to amount of training, then it fits your conclusion, so let's go with that: it's probably either amount of training, quality/intensity of training, or type of training, or some combination of the three.


I believe there is another factor, and that is how well a person is "cut out for" a particular system or methodology.  For some people a particular system is simply a poor match and they will never get any good at it, no matter how good others are with it, or they simply dislike the training methods or the approach to combat and so will not stick with the training and instead will find their interest in a different method.

This issue alone negates all of the arguments over XYZ style is the "best".  There is no objective way to make such a claim and if the "best" system is a poor match for someone, then it is the worst system.


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> I believe there is another factor, and that is how well a person is "cut out for" a particular system or methodology.  For some people a particular system is simply a poor match and they will never get any good at it, no matter how good others are with it, or they simply dislike the training methods or the approach to combat and so will not stick with the training and instead will find their interest in a different method.



Typically people like that will "wash out" early in their training. You're not going to get a black belt or instructor grade in a system if you "dislike the training methods".

The problem we're seeing here is people who are told they are good, *believe* they are good, and then when faced with someone from a competitive style, they get beaten down as if they had no training at all.


----------



## Flying Crane

JowGaWolf said:


> yep and I really hate those videos because they are often seen as a representation of a fighting system, when in reality it isn't.  How can we view someone as a representation of a fighting system when they literally aren't using anything from that fighting system.
> <snip>
> Losing is at its worst when a person says they do kung fu only to lose the fight without having done any kung fu.



I would say it depends on how you identify something as "from that fighting system"

My method uses what you might call "stylized" techniques.  While they can be effective if used right off the text book, in my opinion that stylization is really a training aid, an exaggeration of the movement, that helps the body understand deeper principles of full-body connection.  When it comes to actually using the techniques it doesn't matter what it actually looks like.  It could look like boxing, it could look like something that isn't stereotypically recognized as a technique.  But that doesn't matter as long as the underlying principle of full-body connection is being used.  That is the real lesson underneath the technique itself.

A casual observer might fail to recognize any of the "Kung fu" that is in there.  It very well may not look like the traditional techniques of our system.  Application can manifest a different form, as long as the principle is solid under it all.  And that is right out of the heart of our system.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Typically people like that will "wash out" early in their training. You're not going to get a black belt or instructor grade in a system if you "dislike the training methods".
> 
> The problem we're seeing here is people who are told they are good, *believe* they are good, and then when faced with someone from a competitive style, they get beaten down as if they had no training at all.


Yes and no.  Sometimes it isn't the like or dislike, but simply a lack of aptitude.  They often don't even realize it, may have had no other opportunities to try something else, and so just don't realize it.  They may spend years training, expecting that eventually it will all come together, but it doesn't.

I had that experience.  I trained in a method under a teacher who is very good, lots of experience and not someone you would want to mess with.  But eventually I had to recognize that the system just isn't a good match for me, I never had real confidence with it.  Regardless of how good he is, I would never be what he is in that method.  I was a shodan in that system.


----------



## Hanzou

Well I've done a bit more research, and the Bagua guy in that fight video is actually a sifu, and has done the art for over 30 years. 

So that puts things in perspective.


----------



## Ironbear24

These videos and conversations about style vs style are idiotic. I am not sure if I had said this before so if I repeat myself I so apologize. 

No one person can represent a fighting style. They can only represent themselves. I told friends of mine too and for awhile they just couldn't get it. 

When I spar against someone or fight against someone. It is ME who is doing it, not kenpo, not Judo but ME. So if I lose to a boxer or a wrestler or a goju ryu karateka. That does not mean the other person's fighting style is superior to mine. It is vice versa if I win this fight, it means that I was good enough to best my opponent, it was me who beat them and not my fighting style.

If i lost it means that the other person was better at it than me for whatever the reasons may be. Maybe they train harder? Maybe they have more experience? But whatever the case is it does not mean that it is the fault of my fighting system. If I won the same principles apply only reversed.

Blame yourself for your shortcomings and not your fighting style, because it is you who was bested and not your fighting style. A fighting style is like a tool, in the hands of an expert it can do amazing things but in the hands of an inexperienced person it won't get the person very far.

It really dissapoints me that so many people fail to grasp this as it is not complicated especially in a forum dedicated to martial arts.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> These videos and conversations about style vs style are idiotic. I am not sure if I had said this before so if I repeat myself I so apologize.
> 
> No one person can represent a fighting style. They can only represent themselves. I told friends of mine too and for awhile they just couldn't get it.



Let's be honest here; One of the reasons you view this conversation as "idiotic" is because it involves a set of styles that you are personally interested in practicing.

Also it's not one person, it's a pattern that has persisted for quite some time. What's the harm in discussing it, and trying to figure out what's going on?



> When I spar against someone or fight against someone. It is ME who is doing it, not kenpo, not Judo but ME. So if I lose to a boxer or a wrestler or a goju ryu karateka. That does not mean the other person's fighting style is superior to mine. It is vice versa if I win this fight, it means that I was good enough to best my opponent, it was me who beat them and not my fighting style.



The difference here is that if a boxer gets destroyed by a wrestler we acknowledge that it probably happened because the boxer didn't train grappling. If the wrestler gets knocked out by a boxer we acknowledge that the wrestler needs to develop their striking.

For some reason we can't do the same thing with traditional arts that focus more on forms than fighting. What's wrong with saying that "if you want to fight, you should probably spend more time fighting than doing forms".



> If i lost it means that the other person was better at it than me for whatever the reasons may be. Maybe they train harder? Maybe they have more experience? But whatever the case is it does not mean that it is the fault of my fighting system. If I won the same principles apply only reversed.



If your "fighting system" isn't training you how to fight, or is too complex or traditional for you to break down effectively, then yes it is the fault of your fighting system.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> Let's be honest here; One of the reasons you view this conversation as "idiotic" is because it involves a set of styles that you are personally interested in practicing.



I am not referring to you specifically. Every fighting style has people that are guilty of doing this. How is Kenpo karate and Judo involved here? I don't recall you ever questioning their efficiency, you seem to only target Chinese arts while forever praising anything UFC related. We have our disagreements yes but this is a general statement that does not single you out.



Hanzou said:


> The difference here is that if a boxer gets destroyed by a wrestler we acknowledge that it probably happened because the boxer didn't train grappling. If the wrestler gets knocked out by a boxer we acknowledge that the wrestler needs to develop their striking.



That is a very niche post and not exaclty what I am talking about here. You more or less agreed with me and stated that the individual must work to get improve their weakpoints. What I am referring to is if the boxer were to lose to the wrestler then everyone and their mother starts to claim "wrestling is better than boxing" because a boxer happened to lose to a wrestler.



Hanzou said:


> For some reason we can't do the same thing with traditional arts that focus more on forms than fighting. What's wrong with saying that "if you want to fight, you should probably spend more time fighting than doing forms".



Forms are important in all fighting. Whether you are a grappler or you are striking without forms you get bad technique and bad technique leads to being bad at fighting. If you referring to kata though, as I said before, bjj has no kata so you have no experience doing them.

Kata is not fighting drills or sparing and is only designed to help your form and help you with motions. It also serves as light work outs for when you are injured.

Now if a dojo is doing only kata then you and I are on the same page here. That is no way to train to be a good yet alone competant fighter. It is just one method of training that should be accompanied by sparring among other drills.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> I believe there is another factor, and that is how well a person is "cut out for" a particular system or methodology.  For some people a particular system is simply a poor match and they will never get any good at it, no matter how good others are with it, or they simply dislike the training methods or the approach to combat and so will not stick with the training and instead will find their interest in a different method.
> 
> This issue alone negates all of the arguments over XYZ style is the "best".  There is no objective way to make such a claim and if the "best" system is a poor match for someone, then it is the worst system.


Good point. I'd be horrible for TKD. I am good with kicks, but have an inherent dislike of higher kicks PLUS some apparently genetic inflexibility in my hips. Bad art for me, but it seems to agree with my brother.


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> Say you've only trained Jiu-jitsu. And you go into a boxing ring using only boxing rules.
> Reverse it, you only box and go into a jits match only using jits rules.
> 
> You can pretty much replace boxing and jits with whatever styles you want.
> 
> Look at the first UFC competition. It came about from one man's question of an age old fight question, who would win, a boxer or a wrestler? It then expanded (before the first UFC) to a style vs style tournament with very few rules. But even that wasn't a panacea to answer the question because the levels of talent of the respective fighters was not equal. The reason they weren't equal was because the promoter, Art Davie, couldn't get anyone to fight.(seriously, he tried)
> 
> I would have loved to have seen people like Mike Tyson, Dan Gable, Ernesto Hoost, Jean-Yves Theriault etc in that first UFC. That would have been one hell of a show. But that wasn't about to happen.
> 
> Even if it did......what the UFC has morphed into since, is a specific sport. Regardless of style, you aren't going anywhere if you are not training specifically for UFC rules and reality. It has nothing what-so-ever to do with what your main style might or might not be.
> 
> You can look at all the videoed fights you want, it really doesn't answer the question being asked, which is.....oh, hell, I forget what the hell the question is.
> 
> Carry on.



It is no longer what is the best style but what works best regardless of style.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Well I've done a bit more research, and the Bagua guy in that fight video is actually a sifu, and has done the art for over 30 years.
> 
> So that puts things in perspective.


Would it, if his opponent was also bagua? Are you certain that nobody can train 30 years without properly understanding the art? There was an instructor - actually senior to me, within the same dan rank - who had been training our art significantly longer than me, but who showed no understanding of the principles of the art. He trained under exactly the same series of 4 chief instructors I trained under, but didn't seem to "get it". I can't blame that on training or the art - that is either a mismatch (poor choice of arts for him) or mostly on him.


----------



## Flying Crane

Oh for the love of f##k.

Here is the truth about traditional martial arts.

Many people fail to practice in a manner that develops competent fighting and defense skills.  That is a truth.  There are many reasons for this, including the simple fact that most of us have no actual need for the skills, most of us can get thru life without ever ever needing to defend ourselves, so in the big picture many of us have allowed out training habits to lapse and lose effectiveness.  Also, many people don't actually enjoy fighting.  They don't enjoy hurting others, or getting hurt.  So they are disinclined to do so for fun and entertainment.  In addition, many people fail to recognize their own lack of real skill, and perpetuate the myth that they themselves have good fighting and defense skills, when in reality they do not.  That is a truth.

However, for those who understand them properly and pursue training in the proper ways, these traditional methods can still build extremely effective skills.  And yes, when done properly, forms/kata is a part of that process although it does not need to be.  Training that includes forms, when done properly, can give you very effective skills.  oh and lest I forget to mention it, training that does NOT include forms, when done properly, can give you very effective skills.  Likewise, sparring can be part of that picture as well.  Or not.  And it depends on how you define your sparring, because there are many ways to do it and still call it by the same name.  Can we move on past that now?

In my observations, fewer people who practice traditional martial arts have the kind of fighting skills that they ought, quite possibly myself included.  But that is a failure of the people, and the instructors.  That is not a failure of the methodology or the system itself.

Are we all able to understand that distinction?


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> It is no longer what is the best style but what works best regardless of style.


Which boils down to being a style vs. style argument.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Typically people like that will "wash out" early in their training. You're not going to get a black belt or instructor grade in a system if you "dislike the training methods".
> 
> The problem we're seeing here is people who are told they are good, *believe* they are good, and then when faced with someone from a competitive style, they get beaten down as if they had no training at all.


See my last post.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> I am not referring to you specifically. Every fighting style has people that are guilty of doing this. How is Kenpo karate and Judo involved here? I don't recall you ever questioning their efficiency, you seem to only target Chinese arts while forever praising anything UFC related. We have our disagreements yes but this is a general statement that does not single you out.




So you're no longer seeking Tai Chi instruction?

How will Tai Chi help me become a better martial artist?




> That is a very niche post and not exaclty what I am talking about here. You more or less agreed with me and stated that the individual must work to get improve their weakpoints. What I am referring to is if the boxer were to lose to the wrestler then everyone and their mother starts to claim "wrestling is better than boxing" because a boxer happened to lose to a wrestler.



Well no, because there's plenty of examples of boxers beating wrestlers, especially once they learn takedown defense. Further, both parties fully acknowledge each other's weaknesses.

You simply don't see that coming out of TMA. I've often heard of TMA's "superior methods" compared to modern styles.




> Forms are important in all fighting. *Whether you are a grappler or you are striking without forms you get bad technique and bad technique leads to being bad at fighting.* If you referring to kata though, as I said before, bjj has no kata so you have no experience doing them.



So since Bjj has no kata or forms you're saying that Bjj stylists have bad technique, and they're bad at fighting?


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> That is a very niche post and not exaclty what I am talking about here. You more or less agreed with me and stated that the individual must work to get improve their weakpoints. What I am referring to is if the boxer were to lose to the wrestler then everyone and their mother starts to claim "wrestling is better than boxing" because a boxer happened to lose to a wrestler.



Really? This dosent happen in a mma environment.  Maby it is just a tma thing.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> So you're no longer seeking Tai Chi instruction?
> 
> How will Tai Chi help me become a better martial artist?



I did and I enjoy it and continue to take it. I do however understand it will not make the Chinese man from kill bill or something. I do this and have a better understanding of qigong.


----------



## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> Really? This dosent happen in a mma environment.  Maby it is just a tma thing.



I don't get what you mean here.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> So since Bjj has no kata or forms you're saying that Bjj stylists have bad technique, and they're bad at fighting?



No I because bjj practices forms too. I said bjj has no kata in it. Kata is just one way to practice forms.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Really? This dosent happen in a mma environment.  Maby it is just a tma thing.


Seriously? I see folks use this in MMA discussions often. Many MMA guys feel one style or another (bagua vs. MT, maybe?). I don't think this is any more prevalent in one are than another. It's people's ego making them feel like they have to be "right", so others have to be "wrong."


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> Would it, if his opponent was also bagua? Are you certain that nobody can train 30 years without properly understanding the art? There was an instructor - actually senior to me, within the same dan rank - who had been training our art significantly longer than me, but who showed no understanding of the principles of the art. He trained under exactly the same series of 4 chief instructors I trained under, but didn't seem to "get it". I can't blame that on training or the art - that is either a mismatch (poor choice of arts for him) or mostly on him.



Do you really think there are boxing, Bjj, Muay Thai, Judo, Sambo, wrestling, etc. instructors who have been practicing for 30 years and suck at the fundamental  basics of their style?

Not very likely.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> You simply don't see that coming out of TMA. I've often heard of TMA's "superior methods" compared to modern styles.



It is seen in TMA though. Maybe you are just not experiencing it because you only do bjj which in my opinion is a traditional art. But that is off topic, the point is many TMA styles can admit their strengths and weaknesses, for example many Tae Kwon do people admit that their ground game is non existent and they have poor punches compared to other fighting styles, but their ability to fight longer distance with fast powerful kicks is incredible.

Even with kenpo many sifu's have adapted Judo and Jiu Jiutsu into their dojo so the students will know how to better defend against experienced grapplers.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> No I because bjj practices forms too. I said bjj has no kata in it. Kata is just one way to practice forms.



And what "forms" do you think we practice?



Ironbear24 said:


> It is seen in TMA though. Maybe you are just not experiencing it because you only do bjj which in my opinion is a traditional art. But that is off topic, the point is many TMA styles can admit their strengths and weaknesses, for example many Tae Kwon do people admit that their ground game is non existent and they have poor punches compared to other fighting styles, but their ability to fight longer distance with fast powerful kicks is incredible.



Neither TKD or Bjj are traditional martial arts. Both come from very modern MA styles.



> Even with kenpo many sifu's have adapted Judo and Jiu Jiutsu into their dojo so the students will know how to better defend against experienced grapplers.



Hasn't Kenpo always been an eclectic martial art that actively absorbs outside influences?


----------



## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> Really? This dosent happen in a mma environment.  Maby it is just a tma thing.



Wait I think I get what you are saying now.

And you have to be kidding me. Just look around on these forums. People.like hanzou and friedrice do nothing but go around talking about how they feel mma is better than TMA and the majority of TMA is just bad.

Sorry hanzou, didn't mean to lump you in there with friedrice, you are much more respectable than that idiot.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Do you really think there are boxing, Bjj, Muay Thai, Judo, Sambo, wrestling, etc. instructors who have been practicing for 30 years and suck at the fundamental  basics of their style?
> 
> Not very likely.


If they have skills that let them survive without learning the principles of that art/style, it is possible (except for the rules. As I've said before, which limit alternatives and force folks to work the style in question). sparring helps eliminate poor fighters. Since those are all arts/styles that depend heavily on it, that reinforces what I've said previously about the value of sparring.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> And what "forms" do you think we practice?



How many various "gaurds" and maneuvers do you have  in bj? When you train in those and practice the positioning and motions of your body that is like practicing forms.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> Wait I think I get what you are saying now.
> 
> And you have to be kidding me. Just look around on these forums. People.like hanzou and friedrice do nothing but go around talking about how they feel mma is better than TMA and the majority of TMA is just bad.
> 
> Sorry hanzou, didn't mean to lump you in there with friedrice, you are much more respectable than that idiot.



That is not a style thing. That is a training methodology thing.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> And what "forms" do you think we practice?
> 
> Neither TKD or Bjj are traditional martial arts. Both come from very modern MA styles.
> 
> 
> 
> Hasn't Kenpo always been an eclectic martial art that actively absorbs outside influences?



Yes and the reason for that was to strenghten itself as a style. It accepted it had weaknesses and became eclectic to fix the weaknesses.


----------



## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> That is not a style thing. That is a training methodology thing.



What does expressing ones opinion of whether or not certain styles are effective have to do with ones methos of training?


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> How many various "gaurds" and maneuvers do you have  in bj?



Too many. 



> When you train in those and practice the positioning and motions of your body that is like practicing forms.



Meh... I can't say I agree with that. Anytime I'm practicing a guard or position, I'm working with someone else, or I use my grappling dummy. However, everything I do is practical and designed to work in a fight. There's no "who has the prettiest guard" competitions in Bjj. 

You earlier pointed out that the more eccentric stances in Kung Fu would never be used in a fight. You won't find anything like that in Bjj, where everything has a fighting application.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> What does expressing ones opinion of whether or not certain styles are effective have to do with ones methos of training?



So if you do a style that never trains with resistance. Then you will see a whole heap of baggage attached to that style. The more resistance less baggage.

Mma is a good example of that as it is a leaned up version of a lot of different martial arts. It has even cleaned up a lot of bjj,s baggage.

Some styles will never change their methods of training. That is fine. But they will never become top tier fighters either.

So. When we compare boxing and wrestling you can see the merits of both. A wrestler may beat a boxer but a wrestler can also become a better fighter by learning boxing. 

Some styles don't compare or don't compare well.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Too many.
> 
> 
> 
> Meh... I can't say I agree with that. Anytime I'm practicing a guard or position, I'm working with someone else, or I use my grappling dummy. However, everything I do is practical and designed to work in a fight. There's no "who has the prettiest guard" competitions in Bjj.
> 
> You earlier pointed out that the more eccentric stances in Kung Fu would never be used in a fight. You won't find anything like that in Bjj, where everything has a fighting application.


The Kung fu I practice has nothing to do with being pretty.  An outsider may not comprehend the purpose of something, but it's all in there for a reason and the reason ain't to be pretty.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> If they have skills that let them survive without learning the principles of that art/style, it is possible (except for the rules. As I've said before, which limit alternatives and force folks to work the style in question). sparring helps eliminate poor fighters. Since those are all arts/styles that depend heavily on it, that reinforces what I've said previously about the value of sparring.



It also reinforces the reality that it's easier to become an instructor with 30 years experience with anemic fighting skills in a form-centric style.


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> The Kung fu I practice has nothing to do with being pretty.  An outsider may not comprehend the purpose of something, but it's all in there for a reason and the reason ain't to be pretty.



Tibetan White Crane right?






Lovely.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> Too many.
> 
> 
> 
> Meh... I can't say I agree with that. Anytime I'm practicing a guard or position, I'm working with someone else, or I use my grappling dummy. However, everything I do is practical and designed to work in a fight. There's no "who has the prettiest guard" competitions in Bjj.
> 
> You earlier pointed out that the more eccentric stances in Kung Fu would never be used in a fight. You won't find anything like that in Bjj, where everything has a fighting application.



You are implying that you can only practice forms alone. That is simply incorrect. There things such as two person kata and technique drill.

We do not train to not look "pretty " but we excencuate the motions so when it comes time to fight or compete we will not fudge the moves and techniques due to be being under pressure. When you are under pressure you will half *** things if you are not trained properly and one of these methods is to over excencuate.

This is because you will end up doing it the way you were taught it, so taking that to competition or a fight you will do it fast, a but slopppier maybe, but still do it fine because you are normally over excencuating it under normal conditions.

Now there are also katas that are designed to be more artful and "pretty" but those are a separate thing entirely and are not meant for fighting to my knowledge.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> So if you do a style that never trains with resistance. Then you will see a whole heap of baggage attached to that style. The more resistance less baggage.
> 
> Mma is a good example of that as it is a leaned up version of a lot of different martial arts. It has even cleaned up a lot of bjj,s baggage.
> 
> Some styles will never change their methods of training. That is fine. But they will never become top tier fighters either.
> 
> So. When we compare boxing and wrestling you can see the merits of both. A wrestler may beat a boxer but a wrestler can also become a better fighter by learning boxing.
> 
> Some styles don't compare or don't compare well.


A "top tier fighter" by what yardstick?  Not everyone needs or wants to be in competition.  But if they train a system that is interesting, keeps them fit and healthy, and gives them reasonable self defense skills that enable them to get home safely if some idiot tries to start something with them, that's all most people need or want.  Very few people want or can make the commitment to training needed to become a top tier competition martial athlete.

Is that a concept you can agree on?


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> Tibetan White Crane right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lovely.



Bro, you gotta problem with looking pretty? 

(Cracks knuckles whilst wearing high heels.)


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> It also reinforces the reality that it's easier to become an instructor with 30 years experience with anemic fighting skills in a form-centric style.


I don't think there's much debate on that. I mean, anyone could teach boxing, just as anyone could claim expertise in any other art/style. Sparring should identify particularly weak instructors/trainers, assuming it's not just their students fighting each other. This is the biggest benefit, IMO, of competition.


----------



## Ironbear24

Form is also in everything. It is essentially working alongside the laws of physics, boxers do it. All martial arts do it.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Tibetan White Crane right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lovely.


Yup.  Is there something you need explained?  I'll give you a hint:  I've already explained it.  Go back and re-read my post in this thread, #395.

I don't expect you to understand it from just looking at it.  It requires some explanation and hands -on to get it.  But I've given you the concept.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> A "top tier fighter" by what yardstick?  Not everyone needs or wants to be in competition.  But if they train a system that is interesting, keeps them fit and healthy, and gives them reasonable self defense skills that enable them to get home safely if some idiot tries to start something with them, that's all most people need or want.  Very few people want or can make the commitment to training needed to become a top tier competition martial athlete.
> 
> Is that a concept you can agree on?



As I said that is fine. But you don't get "I only want enough martial arts to give myself some street defence and I would rather not kill myself for 12 weeks preparing for a fight so I can get bashed in front of 800 people"

You get "my system dosent bother with sport because they train for the street. Which is harder so therefore my martial arts is better"


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> Neither TKD or Bjj are traditional martial arts. Both come from very modern MA styles.



So how exactly do you define a modern martial art vs a traditional martial art?


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> As I said that is fine. But you don't get "I only want enough martial arts to give myself some street defence and I would rather not kill myself for 12 weeks preparing for a fight so I can get bashed in front of 800 people"
> 
> You get "my system dosent bother with sport because they train for the street. Which is harder so therefore my martial arts is better"


Well there is some historical context here.  In old China/Japan/Korea/Indonesia/etc., before modern communication and before the ability to call 911 and expect help to arrive shortly, in the reality in which many of these systems were developed, they were absolutely practiced with homicidal intent.  That is still within the system, even if most people today do not practice to that level.  And it isn't an issue of "secret" or "magical" techniques.  It was just damn hard training with a lot of intensity and the knowledge that you very well may need your skills today to save your own life or the lives of your family or fellow villagers.  Because the police wouldn't come to help you, there were no hospitals to patch you up afterward, and the army was probably being used by the ruling class to repress you.  You were on your own, your safety and survival was up to you.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:  I do believe the methodology of my system is a better punching method than boxing.  However, I am not of a comparable athletic level to expect to routinely defeat an experienced boxer.  I know my own limits and I'm not afraid to acknowledge them.  But I do believe my method is better, it digs deeper and grows a stronger root. 

But that's meaningless to a boxer who's methods work just fine for the context and can certainly overlap well in real self defense.  I would never say a boxers skills are poor.  They obviously work, and can work quite well.  But I don't believe a boxers method represents the pinnacle of punching methodology.  If you disagree with my assessment, you are welcome to do so.  But I will never accept a list of competition accomplishments as proof of anything, other than what happened in that ring on that day, between two competitors who both agreed to be there.

You need to look at your own presentation in the issue.  All too often you come in with some disparaging remarks about TMA, and that leads to an overinflated reply, and it's all whacked out of proportion.  But look at your own contribution to the argument.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Flying Crane said:


> The Kung fu I practice has nothing to do with being pretty.  An outsider may not comprehend the purpose of something, but it's all in there for a reason and the reason ain't to be pretty.


people make the mistake of thinking kung fu is like what we see on tv shows and movies.  This usually causes students to try to fight like that.  When it's correctly applied is far from fancy and it's very brutal and unforgiving. Some people won't get it.  So dont waste your energy on those who have their minds made up.


----------



## Flying Crane

JowGaWolf said:


> people make the mistake of thinking kung fu is like what we see on tv shows and movies.  This usually causes students to try to fight like that.  When it's correctly applied is far from fancy and it's very brutal and unforgiving. Some people won't get it.  So dont waste your energy on those who have their minds made up.


Fighting is ugly.  Regardless what method you use.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Flying Crane said:


> Fighting is ugly.  Regardless what method you use.


fighting is ugly but not all of it has the same level of brutality.  At least with boxing you can do every technique that is taught, in the ring.  You can't say the the same about kung fu and other martial art fighting systems.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> You are implying that you can only practice forms alone. That is simply incorrect. There things such as two person kata and technique drill.



Not at all. However, there is a real difference between this;






And this;












> We do not train to not look "pretty " but we excencuate the motions so when it comes time to fight or compete we will not fudge the moves and techniques due to be being under pressure. When you are under pressure you will half *** things if you are not trained properly and one of these methods is to over excencuate.
> 
> This is because you will end up doing it the way you were taught it, so taking that to competition or a fight you will do it fast, a but slopppier maybe, but still do it fine because you are normally over excencuating it under normal conditions.
> 
> Now there are also katas that are designed to be more artful and "pretty" but those are a separate thing entirely and are not meant for fighting to my knowledge.



Okay, but why do all of that nonsense when you can just do the actual move and drill it with a partner, ramping up the resistance as you go? I have yet to see any evidence that those eccentric movements and "hidden techniques" give you any benefit whatsoever. In fact, I would argue that quite a bit evidence points to all of that form work as being detrimental to your overall fighting ability.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> So how exactly do you define a modern martial art vs a traditional martial art?



Well Bjj comes from Judo and Catch Wrestling. Kind of hard to consider that traditional when Judo itself is considered one of the first modern MAs.

TKD comes from Shotokan Karate, which was the first modern form of karate.

I would consider a traditional MA something like Kito-Ryu or Xingyiquan.


----------



## Flying Crane

Lots of people do forms poorly and for them it is a waste of time.

Others understand how to use forms to train effectively.  For them, it is tremendously valuable.  Explaining to you in such a way that you can fully grasp it will take more than some YouTube clips and an online forum venue.  This is where you step back and say, "ok, that's an aspect of training that I don't understand so I'll simply not pass judgement".

Go ahead, give it a try.


----------



## JowGaWolf

BJJ forms.  Forms train correct movement and develops and conditions the body for that movement.  The videos below is no different from doing a kung fu form. Forms are done over and over so that the movement becomes natural.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> Not at all. However, there is a real difference between this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, but why do all of that nonsense when you can just do the actual move and drill it with a partner, ramping up the resistance as you go? I have yet to see any evidence that those eccentric movements and "hidden techniques" give you any benefit whatsoever. In fact, I would argue that quite a bit evidence points to all of that form work as being detrimental to your overall fighting ability.



I can't speak for Chinese martial arts. Or any of these long eccentric forms because kenpo simply doesn't have them. We have kata but our katas have a lot of blocking and striking into them. 

Regardless of how different it is, you still practice forms albeit with a person, the only difference is you do not have kata. You still go through drills to work on technique which is a purpose of many kata,  not all of them but many.

Tae Kwon do came from shotokan karate? If this is factual i didn't know this. Anyway another thing kata is good for is training when you are injured. You can't always train full contact all of the time. What do you consider kenpo karate then? And I'm pretty sure bjj comes from well, Jiu Jiutsu. It is even in the name of it.


----------



## JowGaWolf

MMA technique sparring training with a partner that doesn't resist.  The same thing that many MMA fanboys make fun of when TMA's do it.   What is it that they say? No one is going to let you just grab them to do this move.





I think munch of the confusion is because of a limited understanding of what sparring is and what form training really is.  If you are drilling a fighting motion over and over, you are in fact doing a form.  If you drilling that motion with a partner then you are sparring. If you are applying that motion in free sparring, then you are working on "real world" application.  Free sparring against other fighting systems will help the practitioner learn what motions to use and when. 

Not every technique can be applied in every situation nor should the same  technique be applied to every situation.  Grappling techniques only work if the practitioner can grab his opponent. If the grappling practitioner cannot grab his opponent then none of his grappling techniques will be useful.

If sparring isn't focused on training technique then technique won't be used when the real fight comes.  Which brings back to what I've said plenty of times.  Fighting should look that the forms/motions that you train, drill, and spar with.


----------



## Ironbear24

In reality I look at and think much of this is silly, but in a healthy way as we learn from eachother through this type of discussions. I learned a lot about mma, JowGa kung fu and bjj among other arts from this this thread alone.

I feel it is silly because we are all martial artists but for some reason there seems to be a divide, there should be no divide because we are all dumb enough to hit each other in the head over and over again and find it fun. Maybe we have all been hit in the head too many times or something but either way we are all martial artists, we just go about hitting each other differently.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> BJJ forms.  Forms train correct movement and develops and conditions the body for that movement.  The videos below is no different from doing a kung fu form. Forms are done over and over so that the movement becomes natural.



You're kidding right? Those are exercise drills, and they're almost entirely made up of techniques that we actually use when we fight and grapple. To say that they're no different than doing Kung Fu forms is laughable. There's no "bunkai" to decipher in Bjj drills because it's very apparent what each of those drills are for, and why you're doing them.

I would also disagree that forms train the correct movement, and those movements eventually become "natural". When Kung Fu guys fight, they tend to end up looking like kick boxers, not their forms. If forms taught the correct movement, we'd be seeing CMA practitioners fighting like their forms instead of ending up looking like everyone else.

Anyone fight like this?






Nope.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> Tae Kwon do came from shotokan karate? If this is factual i didn't know this. Anyway another thing kata is good for is training when you are injured. You can't always train full contact all of the time.



Yes. TKD even shares many forms with Shotokan, just modified with Korean names.



> What do you consider kenpo karate then? And I'm pretty sure bjj comes from well, Jiu Jiutsu. It is even in the name of it.



Depends on which Kenpo karate you're talking about. 

Bjj comes from Judo. The problem is that when the Brazilians picked up Judo it was also called Kano Jiujitsu.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Hanzou said:


> Yes. TKD even shares many forms with Shotokan, just modified with Korean names.



This isn't really true. While the pinan forms were used by some Tang Soo Do schools, the unification movement that created Tae Kwon Do also replaced those forms with forms (such as the palgwae, taegeuk, chang hon, etc) unique to Tae Kwon Do. There are no major Tae Kwon Do systems using the Shotokan forms. And those few individuals who do (such as the Moo Duk Kwan system taught by Sabumnimrush) are more properly named Tang Soo Do, since that is the curriculum they teach. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> I would also disagree that forms train the correct movement, and those movements eventually become "natural". When Kung Fu guys fight, they tend to end up looking like kick boxers, not their forms. If forms taught the correct movement, we'd be seeing CMA practitioners fighting like their forms instead of ending up looking like everyone else.
> 
> L


Go back and re-read my earlier post, #395.


----------



## Hanzou

Dirty Dog said:


> This isn't really true. While the pinan forms were used by some Tang Soo Do schools, the unification movement that created Tae Kwon Do also replaced those forms with forms (such as the palgwae, taegeuk, chang hon, etc) unique to Tae Kwon Do. There are no major Tae Kwon Do systems using the Shotokan forms. And those few individuals who do (such as the Moo Duk Kwan system taught by Sabumnimrush) are more properly named Tang Soo Do, since that is the curriculum they teach.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.



Here's a list; 


Five _Pyung Ahn_ forms are used in traditional taekwondo as relatively simple, introductory forms. These correspond to the five Pinan forms of Shotokan.
Three Shotokan forms called Naihanchi are used, though sometimes they are called _Chul-Gi_ forms when used in taekwondo.
Shotokan form Bassai is sometimes called _Pal-sek_.
Chintō is used under the name _Jin-Do_.
Rōhai is used, sometimes under the name _Lohai_.
Kūsankū is used under the name _Kong-Sang-Koon_.
Enpi is used under the name _Sei-shan_.
Jitte is used under the name _Ship-soo_.
Gojūshiho is used under the name _Oh-sip-sa-bo_.

Hyeong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> You're kidding right? Those are exercise drills, and they're almost entirely made up of techniques that we actually use when we fight and grapple. To say that they're no different than doing Kung Fu forms is laughable. There's no "bunkai" to decipher in Bjj drills because it's very apparent what each of those drills are for, and why you're doing them.
> 
> I would also disagree that forms train the correct movement, and those movements eventually become "natural". When Kung Fu guys fight, they tend to end up looking like kick boxers, not their forms. If forms taught the correct movement, we'd be seeing CMA practitioners fighting like their forms instead of ending up looking like everyone else.
> 
> Anyone fight like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.



At the moment we are doing movement drills that could be paralleled with the the concept of forms.  In that we move around in these silly stances in an effort to train a whole bunch of core balance and movement. I might have to see if i can find a video.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Forms are exercise drills that teach correct movement, it also strengthens and conditions the muscles that are involved in that movement.  BJJ does the same thing.
Forms include punching, blocking, kicking all of which are used in fighting.  Punches in a system are performed a certain way. Not all fighting systems punch the same way nor do they generate power the same way.

There is no "Bunkai" in BJJ because BJJ is not Karate, However by defintion: Bunkai "literally meaning "analysis" or "disassembly", is a term used in Japanese martial arts referring to process of analysing kata and extracting fighting techniques from the movements of a "form" (kata)"
There is analysis and disassembly referring to the process of analyzing BJJ form/movement and extracting fighting techniques from the movement of a "form"
You cannot have a well developed fighting system without analysis of form/movement and extracting fighting techniques from the movement. 
This is analysis and disassembly of movement.  He is literally analyzing form (both movement and position). and extracting the techniques from the movements.





Any fighting system with specific movements that have to be done a certain way, has form.  BJJ has movements that must be done a specific way, so those movements are the forms of BJJ.  Fighting systems are nothing but a detailed analysis of attack and defend and extracting fighting techniques from the movements of a form.  

This guy is running through his forms and the same benefits that kung fu gets by going through forms are the same benefits that he is getting through forms.
The following are his words not mine: 
"We do this at the end of training to increase stamina, it's good to loosen the body, ... you can't be tight. So this works the lungs,  It also works your mobility and the mind"  "so this movement is for you to have power."  All the benefits he's listing are the same benefit that people get from doing form in other martial arts, especially kung fu. 




The concept of drilling  a specific form/movement with analysis  and extracting fighting techniques from the movement is the root of a fighting system.  The understanding that a specific movement will have a specific result when done correctly (meaning using the correct technique at the correct time) is analysis all day.  BJJ wouldn't have existed if Analysis of movement and form never took place.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> You're kidding right? Those are exercise drills, and they're almost entirely made up of techniques that we actually use when we fight and grapple. To say that they're no different than doing Kung Fu forms is laughable. There's no "bunkai" to decipher in Bjj drills because it's very apparent what each of those drills are for, and why you're doing them.
> 
> I would also disagree that forms train the correct movement, and those movements eventually become "natural". When Kung Fu guys fight, they tend to end up looking like kick boxers, not their forms. If forms taught the correct movement, we'd be seeing CMA practitioners fighting like their forms instead of ending up looking like everyone else.
> 
> Anyone fight like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.


I fight like that, my sifu fights like that and his sifu fights like that.  My first sifu fought like that.  I've already showed videos of me using the technique at 0:16, the trap backfist, at 0:18, the uppercut at 0:23, the kneeling punch at 0:30, the big punches at 0:44 -0:47, the block at 0:06.

People who have seen my videos have actually seen me in free sparring using some of these techniques.  Some of the same techniques in that form are being used by me here
This technique is the same technique being used at 0:16 in the video that you showed.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Training correct movement will make your movement naturally correct
Training incorrect movement will mean that you will naturally do that movement incorrectly.  This is the same reason why some people jab with their elbows out.  They trained their jab incorrectly so now it's naturally incorrect.  

Moving Correctly and Applying Correct Movement in a fight are 2 different things.  Moving correctly is done without an opponent.  Applying Correct Movement is done against an Opponent. 




Hanzou said:


> When Kung Fu guys fight, they tend to end up looking like kick boxers, not their forms.


 By the way.  I'm a "Kung Fu" guy and nothing in the videos that I showed looks like kick boxing.  The reason why is because I spend most of my time focusing on  Moving Correctly and Applying Correct Movement in the context of the fighting style or fighting system that my opponent will use against me.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> MMA technique sparring training with a partner that doesn't resist.  The same thing that many MMA fanboys make fun of when TMA's do it.   What is it that they say? No one is going to let you just grab them to do this move.



Incorrect. They don't make fun of people learning techniques at a slow pace, they make fun when they see techniques that have zero level of effectiveness being passed off as effective techniques.

Wing Chun anti grappling being a great example of that phenomenon.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> At the moment we are doing movement drills that could be paralleled with the the concept of forms.  In that we move around in these silly stances in an effort to train a whole bunch of core balance and movement. I might have to see if i can find a video.



Yeah, but you guys don't believe that there's some secret techniques in those movements that teaches you how to fight. You guys recognize that you're only doing those excercises to develop your core.

I mean Yoga has some pretty weird poses that develop flexibility and stamina, but I would never call Yoga a kata or martial art form.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> Forms are exercise drills that teach correct movement, it also strengthens and conditions the muscles that are involved in that movement.  BJJ does the same thing.



Again, you're confusing drilling techniques with forms/kata. Forms/Kata have more in common  with dancing than an excercise drill.

Again, you're not going to win a form competition doing a Bjj shrimp crawl.



> This guy is running through his forms and the same benefits that kung fu gets by going through forms are the same benefits that he is getting through forms.



Simply because he supposedly gets the same benefits does not make the two the same thing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Dirty Dog said:


> This isn't really true. While the pinan forms were used by some Tang Soo Do schools, the unification movement that created Tae Kwon Do also replaced those forms with forms (such as the palgwae, taegeuk, chang hon, etc) unique to Tae Kwon Do. There are no major Tae Kwon Do systems using the Shotokan forms. And those few individuals who do (such as the Moo Duk Kwan system taught by Sabumnimrush) are more properly named Tang Soo Do, since that is the curriculum they teach.



I'm learning new stuff, here. So, was TKD originally based mostly on Shotokan, and is now diverged by those changes in curriculum? And is all TSD closely related to TKD? Inquiring minds want to know.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.[/QUOTE]

Okay, this one caught me by surprise, and I almost got to test my Dell's "spill-resistant" keyboard.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Again, you're confusing drilling techniques with forms/kata. Forms/Kata have more in common  with dancing than an excercise drill.
> 
> Again, you're not going to win a form competition doing a Bjj shrimp crawl.
> 
> 
> 
> Simply because he supposedly gets the same benefits does not make the two the same thing.


I think it depends how each of you define "form". To me, a form is more like a kata - something you practice to specifications, sometimes without a partner. However, there's a blurry line there, so I can see his point, as well. In our style, the "kata" are called "Classical Techniques" or "Classical Forms". They are a very specific version of the technique, used for teaching specific movements, working with a semi-cooperative partner. These don't look like the kata/forms you'd see in competitions, and some show up in real fighting (self-defense) situations, while others are for teaching specific principles. While those principles would show up in real-world use, the form won't. These Classical Techniques are somewhere between the WC forms in the videos and BJJ's shrimping exercises (which I hate, by the way - good stuff, but I hate doing them).


----------



## Flying Crane

Forms competition is a can of worms all its own.  Lord knows Ive done too much of it myself in days past.

Forms were never intended to be performance art.  They are simply a training tool, not meant to be put on display for the world to gawk at.  Nobody was supposed to even see your forms other than members of your school.  Asking to see somebody's form is a bit like asking a carpenter to show you his toolbox.  That doesnt have a lot of relevance when you are thinking about buying a house that he just built.

They tend to be a fallback when people want to display their system.  It turns it into performance art, in most cases.  Forms competition means you are trying to impress a judge who probably has little or no knowledge of your system and your forms.  So the theatrics are emphasized and more often than not, the form is done poorly because of it, not done in a way that is an effective training tool.  It becomes like a gymnastics floor routine, pure show, little substance.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, but you guys don't believe that there's some secret techniques in those movements that teaches you how to fight. You guys recognize that you're only doing those excercises to develop your core.
> 
> I mean Yoga has some pretty weird poses that develop flexibility and stamina, but I would never call Yoga a kata or martial art form.


Isn't core strength and good stance part of the toolbox for winning a fight? If those same exercises were to incorporate punching movements and kicking movements and blocking movements, to add some exercise and help train the muscle memory, those would be forms. Would they lose any functionality? No. Would they gain any? Some, though I don't know how much, since I've never trained heavily in a style that used forms of that type.

The idea of "secret techniques" is, IMO, more marketing than realistic. The times I've had someone explain the secondary level of a kata (I suppose that's the bunkai?), it was just another way to see the movements - another set of responses that used some of the same actions. There was nothing secret, just something they didn't teach to new students, so as not to overwhelm them.

I've actually been working on a set of forms like this for my students, to be able to help them learn new techniques by saying, "Okay, you're going to be using this footwork combination from the first kata." Basically, they should help the less-coordinated and less-experienced students improve their movement on their own. It'd also be a tool for highly motivated students who wish I offered more classes, so they can practice more on their own.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Again, exactly what makes someone more skillful than someone else?



There are a number of factors, including but not limited to: How the artists fits with the art, the quality of the school, time training, attention to detail, experience etc.



Hanzou said:


> We must have been watching a different video. The leg kicks devastated the mobility of the CMA practitioner and forced him to close the distance, where he ate multiple punches.



He did not crumble down in pain after the first few kicks



Hanzou said:


> How exactly would them fighting outside on the concrete change anything?



You said 'any context' not just fighting outside on concrete.



Hanzou said:


> Well I've done a bit more research, and the Bagua guy in that fight video is actually a sifu, and has done the art for over 30 years.



And how much training did the Muay Thai fighter have?



Hanzou said:


> You simply don't see that coming out of TMA. I've often heard of TMA's "superior methods" compared to modern styles.



You clearly have not had exposure to them.



Hanzou said:


> Neither TKD or Bjj are traditional martial arts. Both come from very modern MA styles.



For an art to be traditional the art does not necessarily have to be old, only the traditions it follows have to be.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Ironbear24 said:


> So how exactly do you define a modern martial art vs a traditional martial art?


Well there goes another 20 pages of posts.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Here's a list;
> 
> 
> Five _Pyung Ahn_ forms are used in traditional taekwondo as relatively simple, introductory forms. These correspond to the five Pinan forms of Shotokan.
> Three Shotokan forms called Naihanchi are used, though sometimes they are called _Chul-Gi_ forms when used in taekwondo.
> Shotokan form Bassai is sometimes called _Pal-sek_.
> Chintō is used under the name _Jin-Do_.
> Rōhai is used, sometimes under the name _Lohai_.
> Kūsankū is used under the name _Kong-Sang-Koon_.
> Enpi is used under the name _Sei-shan_.
> Jitte is used under the name _Ship-soo_.
> Gojūshiho is used under the name _Oh-sip-sa-bo_.
> 
> Hyeong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


None of those are used in my school.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Again, you're confusing drilling techniques with forms/kata.



Drilling forms/kata/hyung  is drilling techniques, among other things. Each movement has a technique in it.



Hanzou said:


> Forms/Kata have more in common with dancing than an excercise drill.



And BJJ rolling looks a lot like special hugging, that doesn't mean there the same thing either.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou, it seems to me that you believe forms/kata are intended to be a performance/demonstration aspect of the martial arts.  While it is true that it is often used in that manner, it is not the intention or purpose of what forms are.  They are simply a way of drilling the methods of the system.  It's more formalized than just making up a drill on the spot, but it is essentially the same thing and is for the same purpose.

It's clear you don't like them.  I know I've said this in the past, but I'll say it again: so don't do them.  Why do you care so much if others do them?  What is the crusade all about?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

RTKDCMB said:


> For an art to be traditional the art does not necessarily have to be old, only the traditions it follows have to be.



That's the definition I've always worked from. Essentially, it would differentiate those that still wear gi, bow in the style of the originating country, use terms that go back to the original language of the art (in my case, Japanese), and that sort of thing. I don't think there's a stark line you can draw between traditional and modern; it's more a matter of what they do more of.

Certainly many folks in the ryuha (those older Japanese arts that have a specific history within their art that goes back hundreds of years) would refer to anything created in the last century as "modern" (including NGA), but most folks in the TMA world consider TMA to include those styles/arts that maintain many of the traditions of the older styles (again, including NGA).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

RTKDCMB said:


> And BJJ rolling looks a lot like special hugging, that doesn't mean there the same thing either.



Again, almost had to test my Dell's "spill-resistant" keyboard this morning.
(Remind me not to say this the next time I'm in a Gracie training center!)


----------



## Gerry Seymour

RTKDCMB said:


> Well there goes another 20 pages of posts.


We are good at side-tracking around here, aren't we?


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, but you guys don't believe that there's some secret techniques in those movements that teaches you how to fight. You guys recognize that you're only doing those excercises to develop your core.
> 
> I mean Yoga has some pretty weird poses that develop flexibility and stamina, but I would never call Yoga a kata or martial art form.



I defiantly think people expect too much out of forms. But that is the person. 
You could do forms develop your core and become a better fighter.

Or do yoga.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, but you guys don't believe that there's some secret techniques in those movements that teaches you how to fight. You guys recognize that you're only doing those excercises to develop your core.
> 
> I mean Yoga has some pretty weird poses that develop flexibility and stamina, but I would never call Yoga a kata or martial art form.



I defiantly think people expect too much out of forms. But that is the person. 
You could do forms develop your core and become a better fighter.

Or do yoga.


----------



## drop bear

The difference between say mma drills and some forms is that mma technique comes about as a reflection of fighting. So the drill is supposed to look like what I would do if I was actually trying to apply the technique. Form work can go the other way in that people can try to apply the technique so that it looks like the form.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> I defiantly think people expect too much out of forms. But that is the person.



This can be true.  It depends on the person.



> You could do forms develop your core and become a better fighter.
> 
> Or do yoga.


I disagree, forms are not a type of yoga.  What I get from forms is beneficial to combat, not just an overall fitness benefit.

I'll pose the same question to you: you don't like forms, so don't do them.  Nobody says you must.  Why do you care so much about what others are doing?  What do you hope to accomplish by debating it for pages and pages, over and over?


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Again, almost had to test my Dell's "spill-resistant" keyboard this morning.
> (Remind me not to say this the next time I'm in a Gracie training center!)



They have heard it before.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> The difference between say mma drills and some forms is that mma technique comes about as a reflection of fighting. So the drill is supposed to look like what I would do if I was actually trying to apply the technique. Form work can go the other way in that people can try to apply the technique so that it looks like the form.


You also should go back and re-read my earlier post, #395.  Fighting definitely does not need to look like the form.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> This can be true.  It depends on the person.
> 
> 
> I disagree, forms are not a type of yoga.  What I get from forms is beneficial to combat, not just an overall fitness benefit.
> 
> I'll pose the same question to you: you don't like forms, so don't do them.  Nobody says you must.  Why do you care so much about what others are doing?  What do you hope to accomplish by debating it for pages and pages, over and over?



Three posts on it. How many have you done?


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> You also should go back and re-read my earlier post, #395.  Fighting definitely does not need to look like the form.




And 

Some 

Forms.

It is why I wrote it like that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> They have heard it before.


That doesn't mean they'd let me off easy for saying it. They are nice guys, but like to get intense, especially with folks who don't have their ground game.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Three posts on it. How many have you done?


I don't know what you are telling me here.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> And
> 
> Some
> 
> Forms.
> 
> It is why I wrote it like that.


Would you care to elaborate on your message here, a bit?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> The difference between say mma drills and some forms is that mma technique comes about as a reflection of fighting. So the drill is supposed to look like what I would do if I was actually trying to apply the technique. Form work can go the other way in that people can try to apply the technique so that it looks like the form.



This last sentence is where my understanding of forms differs. Forms are not about a "look", but about learning the principles - how to move a given way while keeping balance, covering a certain angle, moving from one stance to the other, etc. With forms, the practitioner can learn to internalize these principles, then access those principles and basic movements when they are needed in application. The forms I'm familiar with (possibly not all, there are many forms I'm not acquainted with) don't create the art, they were created out of the art, based upon the techniques and movements used in combat. Practicing the form is just an additional way to work on those principles, another way of drilling. The exactness of the form, in my experience, gives the student something specific to work on when they are working solo. The variation within the form gives the advanced practitioner something to tinker with, when working solo, to explore some different weight shifts, slight alteration to stances, etc. to see what the effect on their own body would be. Then they take that information when they work with a partner, to see how that translates to an effect upon the partner. This latter part leads to new adjustments for open sparring.

It's not the only path to those adjustments, of course. I'm sure there's a parallel path somewhere in things like boxing, perhaps during shadow boxing or other drills, where solo discovery leads to adjustments in sparring.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Would you care to elaborate on your message here, a bit?



Not everybody treats forms in the same manner. Some people believe that if a technique dosent work from a form it is because you don't understand the form well enough.

People get weird about it. And try to read too much into it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Not everybody treats forms in the same manner. Some people believe that if a technique dosent work from a form it is because you don't understand the form well enough.
> 
> People get weird about it. And try to read too much into it.



I've had people make that argument. When we got to discussing it deeper, what they meant (in my vocabulary) was that the person didn't understand the technique the form was supposed to teach. They'd missed some key principle, and were only doing the movement from the form, rather than using that movement to activate, for instance, a weight shift. I think some folks get it in their heads that the form is the technique, rather than the technique being something the form is intended to help teach. I've even seen this in my own art, where someone would comment that a student didn't understand the Classical Technique (essentially, a kata of the technique) well enough, and that's why it failed. I'd assert that the student didn't understand the technique the CT was supposed to teach, which is the actual fuctional application and the principles needed to make it useful.

So, yeah, some folks get tied up in the form, rather than recognizing the form is a tool, and the techniques are the reason for the form (if it's that kind of form - not all are) rather than the result of the form.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Not everybody treats forms in the same manner. Some people believe that if a technique dosent work from a form it is because you don't understand the form well enough.
> 
> People get weird about it. And try to read too much into it.


I can agree with that.  Is this a reason to disparage forms across the board?

I've agreed numerous times, both in this thread and in others, that many people do not understand forms, do not practice them appropriately, and get little or nothing from it.  I've also acknowledged that some forms are poorly designed and have little or nothing of value to offer.  This is all my opinion.

But I still see value in my own practice for forms.  I don't disparage it across the board.  Just because some people do something poorly, or lack the appropriate understanding or whatever, doesn't mean the whole thing is defunct.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> I can agree with that.  Is this a reason to disparage forms across the board?
> 
> I've agreed numerous times, both in this thread and in others, that many people do not understand forms, do not practice them appropriately, and get little or nothing from it.  I've also acknowledged that some forms are poorly designed and have little or nothing of value to offer.  This is all my opinion.
> 
> But I still see value in my own practice for forms.  I don't disparage it across the board.  Just because some people do something poorly, or lack the appropriate understanding or whatever, doesn't mean the whole thing is defunct.



OK. But why are you honking on to me about it. I am not disparaging forms across the board.

When I have argued forms it was because I was arguing dogma. Which is a different issue.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> OK. But why are you honking on to me about it. I am not disparaging forms across the board.
> 
> When I have argued forms it was because I was arguing dogma. Which is a different issue.


Are you saying you don't have an issue with forms, only with forms practiced poorly?

Because I've certainly gotten the message that you simply think forms are a joke, and that you have a willingness to argue about it.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Are you saying you don't have an issue with forms, only with forms practiced poorly?
> 
> Because I've certainly gotten the message that you simply think forms are a joke, and that you have a willingness to argue about it.



Well don't just make the accusations. Find the evidence.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Well don't just make the accusations. Find the evidence.


At this point I'm simply asking you a straight question.

I don't care if you don't like forms yourself.  That's your issue and non of my business.

But it does get tiresome when the forms are disparaged across the board, over and over here in the forums.  So, just so I'm clear, what is your position?


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> At this point I'm simply asking you a straight question.
> 
> I don't care if you don't like forms yourself.  That's your issue and non of my business.
> 
> But it does get tiresome when the forms are disparaged across the board, over and over here in the forums.  So, just so I'm clear, what is your position?



Forms are fine for what they are. I dont like them so i dont do them. 

But i dont like when they are treated as dogma.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Well don't just make the accusations. Find the evidence.


I don't think he was making an accusation - just asking you to clarify based upon the impression he'd gotten. I'll admit I had a similar impression until your last couple of posts, so I apparently misread your intent.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I don't think he was making an accusation - just asking you to clarify based upon the impression he'd gotten. I'll admit I had a similar impression until your last couple of posts, so I apparently misread your intent.



People read what they want to i suppose.


----------



## Flying Crane

error


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Forms are fine for what they are. I dont like them so i dont do them.
> 
> But i dont like when they are treated as dogma.


I can live with that. Thank you.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> People read what they want to i suppose.


Not always. Sometimes, it's just a miscommunication. People read what they think is there - sometimes driven by their expectation, and sometimes driven by a difference in vocabulary, communication style, or any number of other things. This is (and always has been) part of the difficulty of text-based communication. Your expression and voice likely would have been clearer to me than your words. Words are far more ambiguous than full, in-person communication.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> They don't make fun of people learning techniques at a slow pace, they make fun when they see techniques that have zero level of effectiveness


 Not sure what making fun of people has to do with anything.  



Hanzou said:


> Again, you're confusing drilling techniques with forms/kata. Forms/Kata have more in common with dancing than an excercise drill.


When a martial artist does a form/kata, he/she is "drilling the techniques."  That's what forms are "drilling the technique"


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Not always. Sometimes, it's just a miscommunication. People read what they think is there - sometimes driven by their expectation, and sometimes driven by a difference in vocabulary, communication style, or any number of other things. This is (and always has been) part of the difficulty of text-based communication. Your expression and voice likely would have been clearer to me than your words. Words are far more ambiguous than full, in-person communication.



Doubtful. I am worse in person.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Doubtful. I am worse in person.


Then we'd need beer.


----------



## Touch Of Death

The opposite of form, is slop. Just sayin'


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> I think it depends how each of you define "form". To me, a form is more like a kata - something you practice to specifications, sometimes without a partner. However, there's a blurry line there, so I can see his point, as well. In our style, the "kata" are called "Classical Techniques" or "Classical Forms". They are a very specific version of the technique, used for teaching specific movements, working with a semi-cooperative partner. These don't look like the kata/forms you'd see in competitions, and some show up in real fighting (self-defense) situations, while others are for teaching specific principles. While those principles would show up in real-world use, the form won't. These Classical Techniques are somewhere between the WC forms in the videos and BJJ's shrimping exercises (which I hate, by the way - good stuff, but I hate doing them).



I think we're entering a slippery slope when we start claiming that a Bjj guy is doing the equivalent of a Kung Fu form when they're practicing a kimura, or that doing jumping jacks is the equivalent of a Kung fu form or kata.

Katas/Forms are very specific things tied to martial arts. They're so specific that a mental image pops in your head as soon as you mention them.



gpseymour said:


> Isn't core strength and good stance part of the toolbox for winning a fight?



Sure, but forms aren't the only way to develop core strength and balance. It can even be argued that they aren't even close to being the best way.




> The idea of "secret techniques" is, IMO, more marketing than realistic.



I agree.



> I've actually been working on a set of forms like this for my students, to be able to help them learn new techniques by saying, "Okay, you're going to be using this footwork combination from the first kata." Basically, they should help the less-coordinated and less-experienced students improve their movement on their own. It'd also be a tool for highly motivated students who wish I offered more classes, so they can practice more on their own.



I'm of the camp that says that the only thing you should be drilling are the actual techniques. The superfluous stuff is just fluff that dilutes your training time.

As Bruce Lee said: "Anyone who places so much time on kata is wasting their time".


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> There are a number of factors, including but not limited to: How the artists fits with the art, the quality of the school, time training, attention to detail, experience etc.



You do understand that the quality of the school, the time spent training, the attention to detail, and the level of experience all leads back to *training* right?

Further, I think if you've reached the level of instructor and have been practicing an art for decades, at that point you should be a pretty good fit.



> He did not crumble down in pain after the first few kicks



Simply because he didn't crumble doesn't mean the leg kicks weren't damaging his mobility. His entire fighting method changed after those first two leg kicks, and you could see how desperate he become and how erratic his movements become. Those kicks were doing some damage.



> You said 'any context' not just fighting outside on concrete.



Feel free to name some contexts where the Kung Fu fighter could have prevailed, considering that he was outclassed on just about every level.




> And how much training did the Muay Thai fighter have?



Certainly not 30 years worth.




> For an art to be traditional the art does not necessarily have to be old, only the traditions it follows have to be.



There's a difference between a traditional MA, and a modern MA that pretends to be traditional.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> I think we're entering a slippery slope when we start claiming that a Bjj guy is doing the equivalent of a Kung Fu form when they're practicing a kimura, or that doing jumping jacks is the equivalent of a Kung fu form or kata.
> 
> Katas/Forms are very specific things tied to martial arts. They're so specific that a mental image pops in your head as soon as you mention them.



Actually, what comes into my head is a montage of stuff, including stylized kata, three-step combos, some of the BJJ drills I've done, our Classical Techniques, and even some shadow boxing (which, to me, is either free-form kata, or solo sparring, or both).



> Sure, but forms aren't the only way to develop core strength and balance. It can even be argued that they aren't even close to being the best way.


Agreed. I don't think anyone would argue forms are better than calisthenics or some of those BJJ exercises. That's just one side benefit from some forms.



> I agree.


Crap. I hate it when that happens.



> I'm of the camp that says that the only thing you should be drilling are the actual techniques. The superfluous stuff is just fluff that dilutes your training time.


And I'm not far from that camp. I think there's high value in some forms, especially for solo practice away from class/gym; however, I think they should be a small portion of training time. To me, they are best used to illustrate principles in a way that can become a common language between instructors - clearly more important in a system (TMA, ryuha, even stuff like Krav) than in a gym where people are learning a mixture of styles. In a system, we want to preserve some commonality because that's what makes it a "system". In the MMA gym, commonality isn't important - there will be some, because what's effective will proliferate, but nobody cares really if fighters from different gyms fight differently.

I don't have a problem with those who train forms more than me. don't have a problem with those who choose not to use forms, either. If their training works for them, that's cool with me. Some on each side will not have the skill I do. Some on each side will have more. What works for them doesn't have to work for me, and vice-versa.


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## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> Hanzou, it seems to me that you believe forms/kata are intended to be a performance/demonstration aspect of the martial arts.  While it is true that it is often used in that manner, it is not the intention or purpose of what forms are.  They are simply a way of drilling the methods of the system.  It's more formalized than just making up a drill on the spot, but it is essentially the same thing and is for the same purpose.
> 
> It's clear you don't like them.  I know I've said this in the past, but I'll say it again: so don't do them.  Why do you care so much if others do them?  What is the crusade all about?



I don't do them, and I actively avoid arts that practice them.

If people choose to spend their training time doing them, that is their prerogative. However, saying that these movements make you an effective fighter is rather hard to swallow since endless examples have showed solid form and lackluster fighting ability.


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## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> I don't do them, and I actively avoid arts that practice them.
> 
> If people choose to spend their training time doing them, that is their prerogative. However, saying that these movements make you an effective fighter is rather hard to swallow since endless examples have showed solid form and lackluster fighting ability.


I understand that this is your opinion.  I doubt that is lost on anybody.

Do we still need to bicker about it endlessly, or can we all let it go?


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## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> I understand that this is your opinion.  I doubt that is lost on anybody.
> 
> Do we still need to bicker about it endlessly, or can we all let it go?


Because practicing stances is so silly.


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## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> I understand that this is your opinion.  I doubt that is lost on anybody.
> 
> Do we still need to bicker about it endlessly, or can we all let it go?



Well this thread sort of pertains to all that, so clearly we'd be discussing forms vs sparring.

In any case, I feel that this discussion has run its course. I'll let you guys have the last word.


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## Touch Of Death

Hanzou said:


> Well this thread sort of pertains to all that, so clearly we'd be discussing forms vs sparring.
> 
> In any case, I feel that this discussion has run its course. I'll let you guys have the last word.


No people, no practice, sounds limiting. Life is a form, and you can perform, or just sit by the phone; it is your choice.


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## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> There's a difference between a traditional MA, and a modern MA that pretends to be traditional.


There is a difference between what YOU think a traditional martial art is and what it actually is.


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## RTKDCMB

gpseymour said:


> shadow boxing (which, to me, is either free-form kata, or solo sparring, or both).


If your shadow boxing movements are prearranged then it is kata, if it is not then it is solo sparring.


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## Touch Of Death

RTKDCMB said:


> If your shadow boxing movements are prearranged then it is kata, if it is not then it is solo sparring.


Spontaneous form, actually.


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## Dirty Dog

Hanzou said:


> Here's a list;
> 
> 
> Five _Pyung Ahn_ forms are used in traditional taekwondo as relatively simple, introductory forms. These correspond to the five Pinan forms of Shotokan.
> Three Shotokan forms called Naihanchi are used, though sometimes they are called _Chul-Gi_ forms when used in taekwondo.
> Shotokan form Bassai is sometimes called _Pal-sek_.
> Chintō is used under the name _Jin-Do_.
> Rōhai is used, sometimes under the name _Lohai_.
> Kūsankū is used under the name _Kong-Sang-Koon_.
> Enpi is used under the name _Sei-shan_.
> Jitte is used under the name _Ship-soo_.
> Gojūshiho is used under the name _Oh-sip-sa-bo_.
> 
> Hyeong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Of course, if you actually _*read*_ that article, it is clear that what I said is correct. Name one major TKD organization that uses these forms, please. 
Their use of the name "taekwondo" in the out of context quote is incorrect. These forms were used when the art was commonly called Tang Soo Do. Before the name taekwondo was even coined. Places that still use them typically (as I said in the first place...) are teaching tang soo do.


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## Hanzou

Dirty Dog said:


> Of course, if you actually _*read*_ that article, it is clear that what I said is correct. Name one major TKD organization that uses these forms, please.
> Their use of the name "taekwondo" in the out of context quote is incorrect. These forms were used when the art was commonly called Tang Soo Do. Before the name taekwondo was even coined. Places that still use them typically (as I said in the first place...) are teaching tang soo do.



And I was correct as well; TKD came from Shotokan and (some styles) still have renamed Shotokan kata within them.


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## mograph

I often find the phrase "necessary, but not sufficient" useful.


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## Buka

Hanzou said:


> In any case, I feel that this discussion has run its course. I'll let you guys have the last word.



Cool, my brother, last word it is. "Plastics"


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