# flashlight moves?



## still learning (Mar 8, 2006)

Hello, In our system we practice with a six inch stick (dowel), for striking and locks. Which is similar to using a six inch flashlight (mags- double AA..size.)

Anything can be use in place of the six inch stick...flashlights,short pipe,handles, and so on....?

So many things can be use for weapons....there is no limits of what you can train with...............one must open there mind!

........................I carry a 6 cell mag flashight with "C" size batteries, easlier to handle then the "D" size flashight, under my truck seat.

Just remember if you carry a baseball bat in your car ...... make sure you have a baseball glove and ball too! In case you search for weapons on you. The laws in your state could make this a deadly weapon? .....Aloha


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 8, 2006)

My thinking would be to use a small light like a pocket stick or kubaton, and a larger light either like a mace, or small club. The really large mags, maybe like a short stick.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 8, 2006)

while modifying your technique for flashlight, don't forget to use the bright end -- blind 'em, them whomp 'em.


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## Drac (Mar 9, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> while modifying your technique for flashlight, don't forget to use the bright end -- blind 'em, them whomp 'em.


 
Wahhhh..I wanted to say that...


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## Drac (Mar 9, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, In our system we practice with a six inch stick (dowel), for striking and locks. Which is similar to using a six inch flashlight (mags- double AA..size.)
> 
> Anything can be use in place of the six inch stick...flashlights,short pipe,handles, and so on....?
> 
> ...


 
That's whay I like Dan-Bong training..The short wooden stick is about the size of the flashlight I carry on duty..


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 9, 2006)

This is the topic of my latest book, _Flashlight Fighting_, available imminently from Paladin Press.

*Ad Sheet from This Month's Soldier of Fortune*


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## scottcatchot (Mar 9, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> That's whay I like Dan-Bong training..The short wooden stick is about the size of the flashlight I carry on duty..


 
I am not familiar with Dan-Bong, could you elaborate a little?


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

Phil Elmore said:
			
		

> This is the topic of my latest book, _Flashlight Fighting_, available imminently from Paladin Press.
> 
> *Ad Sheet from This Month's Soldier of Fortune*


 
Interesting book Phil, where did you learn these moves? 


My own thoughts are that whilst a mag light can be used as a club without need for specialist training, and as an assistance to see who you are about to shoot if you are firearm equiped, it is not a psarticularly relevant weapon for self-defence, particularly the small pocket lights. 

Scenario: Someone attacks you blind side.
Response: Fumble in pocket for totrch, turn it on, point at attacker and/or attempt to use it as an impact weapon. 
Result: Too slow. Not in keeping with common sense. 

Scenario: Confrontation
Response: Take light out of pocket and shine it in their eyes
Result: Situation esculated

Scenario: Confrontation where you are being threatened with a gun/knife
Response: Take light out of pocket....
Result: You have made it more likely that they will use the weapon. 

etc


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 9, 2006)

Creating hypothetical scenarios based on your own inabilities and suppositions is not a relevant evaluation of any methodology.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

> Creating hypothetical scenarios based on your own inabilities and suppositions is not a relevant evaluation of any methodology.


That sounds like an attempt at a cutting personal attack that does Phil. How about answering my query as to where you learned the flashlight-fu moves you are selling in your book?


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Mar 9, 2006)

The ad copy says "according to palm stick principals." One might then logically think that these are palm stick techniques, done with a similarly sized small flash light. I've done a small amount of playing around with some pocket stick techniques, and they translate very well to a small "maglite".


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## Andrew Green (Mar 9, 2006)

Phil Elmore said:
			
		

> This is the topic of my latest book, _Flashlight Fighting_, available imminently from Paladin Press.
> 
> *Ad Sheet from This Month's Soldier of Fortune*



So what can you tell us about where these methods come from, how they've been tested and if there is any record of there use in a live environment?


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 9, 2006)

> The ad copy says "according to palm stick principals." One might then logically think that these are palm stick techniques, done with a similarly sized small flash light. I've done a small amount of playing around with some pocket stick techniques, and they translate very well to a small "maglite".


 
They do indeed.  The book includes an appendix on larger maglites, too, though this is not the focus of the text.  (I keep one of the multi-D-cell models in brackets under my desk.)

http://themartialist.com/images/4dmaglite10.jpg


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## shesulsa (Mar 9, 2006)

_*MODERATOR WARNING:

This discussion will remain polite, respectful and troll-free or it will be locked.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Senior Moderator*_


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

Nothing inpolite about asking Phil where he learned the flashlight techniques he's selling.


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## MJS (Mar 9, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> Nothing inpolite about asking Phil where he learned the flashlight techniques he's selling.


 
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26480

Please take some time to read through the general posting rules of this forum.  The nature of the replies appears to be going against the grain of the rules.

Mike


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## MSUTKD (Mar 9, 2006)

What we need in martial arts is a peer review system, like we have in academia.  If I want to publish a scientific document it must adhere to academic standards and have some support from my peers in the field.  Those peers did not just write PhD next to their names, they went though an accepted process to achieve this status.  I know that it will not happen but I can dream.  In todays world if you are a good writer you can pawn off anything to anyone.  An example:  Dr. Phil (TV) selling us an exercise book.  He is very out of shape yet has a book on fitness.  I am sure he hired a writer but still I think you get the idea.  It is sad when we accept hypocrisy and mediocrity with open arms.  I encourage all training to use critical thinking and have the courage to do your best.  Question what you see and do not support those who do not lead from the front.  Would you go to a doctor who learned on the internet?  No?  Why not?

ron


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## terryl965 (Mar 9, 2006)

MSUTKD every single MA'er I know have there beliefs in there particular field of MA, most of them could not agree with a single takedown move let alone agree how a book should be written. I see no problem with someone writing a book on what they feel is the best way of doing things maybe it will work for them and not for me, does it make it bad, no not really just kinda useless for me thats all. I have read so many booksand seen so many techniques over forty years alot of it full of crap for me but to some it is there Bible.

I wish we as Ma'er could look pass one ego's and open our minds to the possibilities that are out there.
Terry


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Mar 9, 2006)

MSUTKD said:
			
		

> What we need in martial arts is a peer review system, like we have in academia.  If I want to publish a scientific document it must adhere to academic standards and have some support from my peers in the field.  Those peers did not just write PhD next to their names, they went though an accepted process to achieve this status.  I know that it will not happen but I can dream.  In todays world if you are a good writer you can pawn off anything to anyone.  An example:  Dr. Phil (TV) selling us an exercise book.  He is very out of shape yet has a book on fitness.  I am sure he hired a writer but still I think you get the idea.  It is sad when we accept hypocrisy and mediocrity with open arms.  I encourage all training to use critical thinking and have the courage to do your best.  Question what you see and do not support those who do not lead from the front.  Would you go to a doctor who learned on the internet?  No?  Why not?
> 
> ron


A peer review program would be proper, however, one must also look at the nature and quality of those on the panel. The questions asked may be valid, however the questioner may not be. In this example, you have a legitimate question "What did you base these on?" being asked initially by someone who apparently has a long history of antagonism towards the questioned, even having gone so far as to create some rather childish cartoons about the man. 

So I don't see it as a fair question in this instance.

Equally offensive is the fact that this topic is about what one can do with the device, yet has been now polluted by first an obnoxious self serving advertisement, and now risks a digression into fraud busting. Neither of which is cricket, mate.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> being asked initially by someone who apparently has a long history of antagonism towards the questioned, even having gone so far as to create some rather childish cartoons about the man.


Anyone interested in seeing the cartoons and similar material please just PM me.


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## MSUTKD (Mar 9, 2006)

Very good points, both of you.  It is hard to separate ego when we work so hard to achieve in our respective disciplines.  Thanks Terry and Edmund. 

ron


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 9, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> while modifying your technique for flashlight, don't forget to use the bright end -- blind 'em, them whomp 'em.


I think it would depend on the situation.  In a dark environment, I can see the shining of a bright light to temporarily screw up someones night vision, or a moving light to possibly distract and throw off their senses. It might also give a gunman a solid target to aim for. If I'm in a knife or openhand situation, might work as a concussion or pressure point tool though.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

Serious question: If confronted by someone armed with a blade or gun, is shining a torch in their face more or less likely to result in them using the weapon?


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 9, 2006)

What training with guns or knives do you have?  On what knowledge base do you presume to make any conclusions about their use or their applications?  What experience with either do you have in practical, real-world situations?


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## Drac (Mar 9, 2006)

scottcatchot said:
			
		

> I am not familiar with Dan-Bong, could you elaborate a little?


 
A short wooden stick about the size of a Stiron flashlight...Good for strikes and joint locks..A Google search will reveal more...


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 9, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> Serious question: If confronted by someone armed with a blade or gun, is shining a torch in their face more or less likely to result in them using the weapon?


I don't know. Good question.

Anyone have any crime statistics from reliable sources on such things? FBI profiler reports maybe?


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

Phil, are you going to try an Ad Hominem attack on my posting a straightforward question? Unlike you I am not publishing how-do books/articles on such topics to the general public. 

My training with firearms is mostly contained within my MTQ-1 qualification, which in my book is nothing to write home about, but almost certainly gives me first hand experience of weapons a Martialist would have wet dreams about.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Mar 9, 2006)

I dare say, I don't believe the lads quite understand things here. Any chance you gentlemen could take your personal problems somewhere else? I'm certain there is a forum out there which is geared towards such pointless drivel. Then again, perhaps flashlights at 10 paces would be more your sport?


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 9, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> Phil, are you going to try an Ad Hominem attack on my posting a straightforward question? Unlike you I am not publishing how-do books/articles on such topics to the general public.
> 
> My training with firearms is mostly contained within my MTQ-1 qualification, which in my book is nothing to write home about, but almost certainly gives me first hand experience of weapons a Martialist would have wet dreams about.


 
Whoever trained you couldn't have done a very good job, if in fact you are not lying.  You are making implications about defense against armed assault based on the fear that whomever is already presenting you with lethal force _might use that force if you make them upset_.  You are therefore basing your implications on the idea that one's defense against armed assault must be built on not upsetting one's attacker in the hope of avoiding the presented threat.  This is absurd and betrays an ignorance of the whole topic.


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## bydand (Mar 9, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> That sounds like an attempt at a cutting personal attack that does Phil. How about answering my query as to where you learned the flashlight-fu moves you are selling in your book?



Sounds a lot like most of your own posts Kickcatcher toward Phil.  Actually the techneques that are used with "palm sticks" could and DO translate very well for a small flashlight.  Would you try it at a distance against an armed attacker?  I would hope not!  Just as you wouldnt try the palm sticks that it was adapted from at distance.


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## MSUTKD (Mar 9, 2006)

A MTQ-1 is a standard qualification; I think that is at least something.  What is the US equivalent of the MTQ-1?

ron


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 9, 2006)

It's basics from what I can tell.
http://www.army.mod.uk/uotc/liverpool/mtq_1.htm


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## MSUTKD (Mar 9, 2006)

Well, military training is a solid foundation.  I think law enforcement training would also be valid in this discussion.  I think we should ask some expert military and or law enforcement individuals.  I also reiterate Bobs thoughtThere must be some statistics out there on this subject?  Maybe some one can do some research on the subject.

ron


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

I'm guessing people are googling "MTQ-1"; It's a British military qualification which basically qualifies me as cannon fodder, lol. It does not cover gun self-defence, beyond running away very fast in a zig-zag fashion, but it does give me a certain degree of awareness of what guns can do. 

BUT, that whole question is missing the point. You don't need hours of weapons fetish survivalist training to appreciate the general nature of guns or blades. and the question of whether someone threatening you with a weapons is more or less likely tto initate the attack upon you producing your own less capable weapon is again not a question requiring gun training.


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## terryl965 (Mar 9, 2006)

All I know is if someone pulls a gun on me my response is simple here my wallet have fun and buy a round on me at the local watering hole.
Terry


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 9, 2006)

My point is simply that you cannot evaluate the efficacy of a given methodology by saying, "Yeah, but you couldn't do that if someone was pointing a gun or a knife at you, because that might actually make him mad and then he'd _use_ the weapon with which he's threatening lethal force."  That's defeatism and also betrays a spectacular ignorance of weapons, regardless of the training the person expressing such an opinion claims to have.

To understand weapons and how they work, you _do_ have to have training with them.  You have to understand them in ways that preclude referring to those who do understand them as "fetishists."  That kind of rhetoric paints you as a hoplophobe who is pontificating from ignorance; I don't care if the army did put a rifle in your hands while telling you where to march with it.

When you are presented with the threat of lethal force, you can comply with the aggressor's demands or you can take action.  Any action you take this is not compliance could conceivably result in his execution of his threat.  Judging the veracity of the threat is the first step you take in determining your response to that threat.  To worry that someone with a gun might get annoyed and shoot you if you shine a light in his face is simply stupid; if you've made the decision not to comply and to take some action in response, irritating him with bright light is the least of your worries.  

It's also a stupid scenario contrived specifically to make a logically spurious point -- if you're going to defend against someone threatening you with a firearm, you had better be close enough to touch him or have the means to get there fast.  If that's the case, shining a light in someone's eyes is far and away a secondary concern -- because you should be beating the crap out of that person with the blunt end of the light.

If you're _not_ close enough to touch someone and they're pointing a gun at you, you can rush or you can run.  If you're doing either, blinding the shooter in low-light conditions _might_ give you an advantage.  It's a slim chance but better than nothing.

If you're not close enough to touch someone who is threatening you with a knife and you're not close enough for them to lunge at you and reach you with the blade, why are you shining lights?  You should be doing just about anything else, up to and including simply running for it.

When people pursuing their own hostile agendas create contrived hypothetical scenarios in an effort to "prove" opinions built on ignorance and uninformed assumptions, they do nothing but parade their own lack of knowledge about the things they presume to condemn.


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## shesulsa (Mar 9, 2006)

_*thread Locked Pending Admin Review 

G Ketchmark / Shesulsa
Mt Senior Moderator*_


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