# Could learning online work if..



## jezr74 (May 25, 2013)

I'm traveling a lot currently for work, and will be for another 2-3 months, will be stationary for 3-6 months then off again. And it is very hard to get a stable routine for practice.

I stumbled across this and got me thinking.

Sifu Wahnish has put together some online training for basic principles. And has interaction worked in interaction for assessment etc.

http://www.wingchunonline.com/

I totally, understand that online is not the way to go, but when I am stable in a country I will be using the closest WC option available. I've already researched places where I am for more than a month and can train.

My area of advice I'm looking for is if it seems feasible that I could use this online method while traveling to compliment what I learn on the ground when my living becomes more established? I have a number of idle hours at night and just need something to keep me occupied and hopefully learn something new and in the direction I've been looking which is WC.

Their claim an effective interactive option, so I thought I'd ask if it's worth a go just to get some basic learning. Even just for a month to trial it...

Thanks,

Jez


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## rlobrecht (May 25, 2013)

I don't know anything about Wing Chun, so this may not apply.

Not training at all for several months is bad.  You will regress, and forget things.  I also know that it is difficult to sit in a hotel room, and remind myself to train, or what to train.  I'd say that trying to use an online source to learn new techniques is probably a bad idea, but using an online source to give you a training routine sounds like a great idea.

Let us know how it works out.


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## Argus (May 25, 2013)

I was looking for a similar option when I started training as well, but I didn't find any good options. I was able to learn a lot about the art, and get a very good understanding of it, but there's still a lot you miss if you don't have experienced people and teachers to work with in person. However, there are a few points I'd like to make. I do believe that there are some things you can learn and practice on your own. Before I even went to my first class, I'd done a lot of research and checked out a lot of learning material from different lineages. I didn't do too much training on my own for fear of forming bad habits, but the little that I had practiced (stance, structure, punching) I found that I had actually practiced correctly.

Sensitivity and Chisau are a bit of a different animal, and you need an experienced training partner and/or teacher to learn those aspects of the system. But form and structure _may _be something you can start practicing on your own, especially if you are able to get corrections from a teacher at the beginning -- even if only for a few months.

I'm not sure that I would recommend many online courses, but I was somewhat impressed by an interview with Sifu Chuck from "Learn Wing Chun Online." You can listen to what he has to say here: http://wingchungeeks.com/sifuchuck/ It's important to realize though, that he considers his videos as something of a reference, or a starting place for students - you still need to make it out to class at some point.

If you can build a basic foundation in Wing Chun, I believe you may be able to travel and practice / attend different schools as you do. But in the beginning, it may be very difficult and confusing, because the quality and variety of systems in Wing Chun varies greatly. If nothing else, though, it may give you a great perspective on what's out there.


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## StormShadow (May 28, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> I'm traveling a lot currently for work, and will be for another 2-3 months, will be stationary for 3-6 months then off again. And it is very hard to get a stable routine for practice.
> 
> I stumbled across this and got me thinking.
> 
> ...



Sifu Wahnish is actually a good teacher and he has a kwoon in NY.  I've actually came across the same site, signed up and began testing out the program.  He is authentically involved in the online school and wants to know and invites all students to his school in ny to meet and touch hands with him.  In college I attended a kwoon but was unable to continue so I had to quit.  Was a little skeptical of how wing chun could be taught online but as I've witnessed it can be. BUT, you certainly need a partner to progress in the program.  Sifu Wahnish has and is continuing to set up ways his students can find training partners to practice.  But aside from partnering, the instruction is great and is really well done.  That part of it, to me, is better than being in a class.  I can replay the lesson at will and all lessons are shown from multiple angels and not merely "ran-though" but time is taking to ensure you get it the lesson. 

So in the beginning, like you I was skeptical as I thought how can you learn wing chun online without a partner to practice the principles. Well, put simply a partner is needed even online.  So if you so sign up, work with sifu wahnish to find a good training partner or sign up with a friend, family member ect. He also tells you at which point in the program you will need a partner.  In the very beginning he focuses on the basics such as footwork, filling space, staying in the center line, angle of deflection with hand positions ect. 

He is also very approachable and has a private members area forum where all students and sifu wahnish get together an interact. He will also personally critique to see how you are progressing.  Honestly, I don't know how he does it.  It seems daunting to have students all over and make the program truly interactive be he does make time in his life besides his job and family life and physical school to bring the program online.  I've actually spoke with him over the phone many times so I've had the opportunity to gauge him personally. To program is legit, you will learn alot.  If you cannot attend his physical school from time to time, he stresses that you find or have a good partner to work with you.


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## jezr74 (May 28, 2013)

I might just give it a go for a while, obviously my biggest concern is developing bad habits, but I might also drop in on various schools if they are near where I am working and get some physical guidance as well.

The online format they are talking about goes beyond what I've seen before, so has me curious.


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## Carol (May 28, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> I might just give it a go for a while, obviously my biggest concern is developing bad habits, but *I might also drop in on various schools if they are near where I am working and get some physical guidance as well.*



I've done this and it has been a fantastic experience!  If you can, drop in to visit schools whenever you are on the road.  You can meet many folks from MT that way, which is awesome.  Or even if you can't make a connection through MT or through your school, call the school before you arrive (evenings are the best time to reach a live person) and just say you're in the area on business and would like to check out a class.  

Most of the folks I have met have been very open and welcoming, and all have refused any payment for my visit even when I was extending a hand with money in it.   Chances are they will enjoy making a new friend just as much as you will


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 28, 2013)

Online training without correction (ie. working with a live instructor) is a great way to ingrain bad habits.   Using it as reference for material you already know.  Well now that is good!


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## jezr74 (May 28, 2013)

Anyone used Coaches Eye before? Wonder if if would be useful for MA.



via Nexus 7 w/Tapatalk - please ignore predictive text spelling errors


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## Cyriacus (May 28, 2013)

In response to the original post, it depends what you want exactly, in my opinion. If your goals are realistic for what you want to use to reach them, then do it. If not, youre better off going it independently. Take a step back and look at it that way.


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## jezr74 (May 28, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> In response to the original post, it depends what you want exactly, in my opinion. If your goals are realistic for what you want to use to reach them, then do it. If not, youre better off going it independently. Take a step back and look at it that way.



I feel like I'm wasting months when I can't train consistently. I have about 3-4 spare hours a few days a week spare, generally late at night. 

I'm hoping to learn and focus on basics in preparation until I'm stable again and can attend a kwoon on regular basis.

via Nexus 7 w/Tapatalk - please ignore predictive text spelling errors


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## Carol (May 28, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> I feel like I'm wasting months when I can't train consistently. I have about 3-4 spare hours a few days a week spare, generally late at night.
> 
> I'm hoping to learn and focus on basics in preparation until I'm stable again and can attend a kwoon on regular basis.
> 
> via Nexus 7 w/Tapatalk - please ignore predictive text spelling errors



Mmartial arts schools are typically built around folks with a 9-to-5 schedule.  

The irony? Most of the folks that need the skills the most -- the folks who use them for their profession -- are folks who do not work 9-to-5.  Law Enforcement, bouncers, military, etc...none of these folks typically work "normal" business hours.

Do you know anyone who is willing to do some training with you during off hours?  I used to work 2nd shift, towards the end of my time at that job I had a ragtag group that trained with me, usually outside, at Midnight or 1am.  We had an EMT, a LEO, a pizza shop owner, a nurse, a stay-at-home dad and a couple others.  We all had different backgrounds which made it even more of a mess.  But, getting together and doing drills with someone is IMO better than just staying at home, especially when you have different folks to bang on and different eyes to watch what you're doing.


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## Blindside (May 28, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> Anyone used Coaches Eye before? Wonder if if would be useful for MA.



Only if you have a coach who can tell you what you are screwing up.  My coach uses it for my lifting technique, but with my limited experience I wouldn't get much out of trying to have someone film me and then trying to self correct.


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## IYWC (May 29, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> I'm traveling a lot currently for work, and will be for another 2-3 months, will be stationary for 3-6 months then off again. And it is very hard to get a stable routine for practice.
> 
> I stumbled across this and got me thinking.
> 
> ...



Hey Jez,

What if you had a place which acts more as a resource rather than 'We can teach you wing chun online' Because we all know you need some live training so in your situation i guess it would be perfect for you to have a site where it provides resources and guides for the training that you are already doing in the live classes plus basic drills that you can train by yourself. So an online resource almost acting like a coach to improve or correct what you are learning in live classes.... there is not any resource like this at present but I'm thinking to create one, whats your thoughts? Would that benefit you and be something of interest? (these questions go to anyone reading this that practices wing chun btw)  

Cheers,
Jamie B


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## jezr74 (May 29, 2013)

IYWC said:


> Hey Jez,
> 
> What if you had a place which acts more as a resource rather than 'We can teach you wing chun online' Because we all know you need some live training so in your situation i guess it would be perfect for you to have a site where it provides resources and guides for the training that you are already doing in the live classes plus basic drills that you can train by yourself. So an online resource almost acting like a coach to improve or correct what you are learning in live classes.... there is not any resource like this at present but I'm thinking to create one, whats your thoughts? Would that benefit you and be something of interest? (these questions go to anyone reading this that practices wing chun btw)
> 
> ...



That's actually what I'm targeting with that site, I want it to supplement along with physical training. I think I wrote it up in the wrong way, but your right, that's what I'm looking for.

From what I've read of the Online site, that's what they do. And I think that is what your looking to work on as well. But I think the online component will have a stigma along with it as well, and is not a trusted source, especially for something that is rather physical. What caught my attention for the Wing Chun Online format was the interaction, and has me curious to how it work.

Next thing would be using an xBox Kinect and virtual chi sao, some what geeky.


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## StormShadow (May 29, 2013)

I really believe people have a misconception from what WCO really is.  You receive weekly lessons from Sifu Wahnish.  The lessons are filmed in multiple angles and in slow motion. You SHOULD have a partner to work with who is wing chun proficient to help you train.  Sifu Wahnish invites you to his ny school to attend a physical class.  He is in the process of implementing level testing.  In level testing there are NO belts of course.  Level testing will only gauge your progression and your handle on wing chun material. Sifu Wahnish is hoping to travel to central locations where his online students may come, touch hands with him, each other, get tested as well as practice and fellowship.  I am not to where I will be involved chi sao so I cannot tell you where/how that is learning from a online school.  But I have multiple partners who has experience in Wing Chun and I am able to visit Sifu Wahnish throughout the year to correct anything I am doing wrong.  If you are unable to see Sifu Wahnish, he will critique you from either video or live video.  Sifu Wahnish is also in the process of setting up capabilities to hold live online classes the same times as his physical school classes.  

Wingchunonline is much deeper than just merely a resource center. I've looked at other online schools and none really compares to this.  As a software engineer myself, it is impressive how he using the technology of today to solve distance issues and bring a wing chun education to those who would be otherwise unable to obtain it.

**In the first few weeks of training, there is no need of a partner as you only learning wing chun academic principles, stances, footwork, chain punching without footwork, the sil lum tao form, gate theory, and other basics.  Partnering comes in at the end of level one and continues.***


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## Instructor (May 29, 2013)

I can't speak about Wing Chun Online.  But a good friend of mine has been using AWCA Online and loves it!  He was showing me some of the drills he and his boys have been doing through there and it's pretty interesting stuff.

http://www.awcaonline.com/dlp/


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## StormShadow (May 29, 2013)

Seems like an interesting program.  Does his Sifu makes it appoint to partner with another who is proficient in wing chun?  As others have stated, you cannot learn sensitivity training without touching hands with someone.  Even in my program, I can learn the techniques and be awesome at performing it in the air, but it is best when performing against another.


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## StormShadow (May 29, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> I might just give it a go for a while, obviously my biggest concern is developing bad habits, but I might also drop in on various schools if they are near where I am working and get some physical guidance as well.
> 
> The online format they are talking about goes beyond what I've seen before, so has me curious.



If you would like samples of Sifu Wahnish's instruction, he has videos posted of different classes he teaches on his facebook page.  The name is the same wingchunonline. You can check it out and see if his training would be a fit for you.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2013)

The voice of dissent here, as always.  I will never endorse online/video instruction as the primary or only method of training.  I believe it is fine as a supplement to direct and regular and frequent face-to-face instruction with a good instructor, and then only if the material used is directly connected to the same instructor.  For example, if one's instructor created some videos to use as a reminder for students who are already working directly with him.

If you've learned some things directly from an instructor and then are travelling or relocating and not able to find another instructor, I believe you are much better off just practicing what you've already learned.  I do not endorse visiting local schools who are not connected to your instructor, even in the same system, unless you are ready and willing to put aside what you've already learned and wholly embrace what you are learning from the new teacher.  

Here's the thing:  consistency is very important.  Different schools of the same system often will do things differently, even if those differences are subtle and seem to be very slight.  Often those minor and slight differences can make a huge huge difference in results.  Or, those slight differences can simply create conflict in how things are done.  You gotta keep a consistent methodology or your training becomes sort of scizophrenic.  

Case in point:  we've recently had a visitor who trained under the same teacher that my sifu trained under, altho during a later era than my teacher.  This visitor would comment on what we were doing and sometimes demonstrate to illustrate his point.  I could see very clearly that some very fundamental details of how he did his stuff, right down to the very basics, is different from how we do it.  If I began adjusting what I was doing to be consistent with this visitor, it would completely disrupt the methodology that I've been taught by my sifu.  It would be confusing and very problematic.

I know a lot of people feel that training with a variety of teachers is a great thing.  It CAN be, but it can also cause problems.  You need to understand what those potential problems are, and who might be a good choice of someone to train with vs. someone who would not be good for you to train with.  Training with other teachers can sort of give you exposure to someone else's vision of your system and that can be a good thing.  But if you try to adopt everything that different teachers show you, you will end up with a lot of material that is inconsistent and problematic and it ends up kinda like a frankenstein's monster instead of a smooth and consistent methodology.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but that's my position on it.  More isn't always better.  Sometimes sticking with what little you've got and being really focused on it is much better.


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## jezr74 (May 29, 2013)

Might try this for s couple of months then and drop into the NY location when I'm working there.

via Nexus 7 w/Tapatalk - please ignore predictive text spelling errors


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## IYWC (Jun 3, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> That's actually what I'm targeting with that site, I want it to supplement along with physical training. I think I wrote it up in the wrong way, but your right, that's what I'm looking for.
> 
> From what I've read of the Online site, that's what they do. And I think that is what your looking to work on as well. But I think the online component will have a stigma along with it as well, and is not a trusted source, especially for something that is rather physical. What caught my attention for the Wing Chun Online format was the interaction, and has me curious to how it work.
> 
> Next thing would be using an xBox Kinect and virtual chi sao, some what geeky.



Yeh forsure I hear that. Yeah will definitely be the next stage where you just use your Xbox or PS and it takes you through the motons. Okay Jez well thanks for the feed back and hope the Wing Chun Online helps you out!


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## Domino (Jun 4, 2013)

Learning online is all good and well for shapes and form but energy and the finer points you will miss.
Go to a school and feel.


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## Dummy (Jun 4, 2013)

Online never works.


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## Instructor (Jun 4, 2013)

Dummy said:


> Online never works.



Would love an oppurtunity to change your mind.  What programs have you tried thus far?


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## Dummy (Jun 5, 2013)

Instructor said:


> Would love an oppurtunity to change your mind.  What programs have you tried thus far?



I've tried a wing chun online learning program i think it was more than a year ago , granted it helped but i didn't truly understand Wing chun until i started practicing with a friend who is to my knowledge the only other wc practitioner in my city( as it is a rarity in this country for people to practice anything other than karate or the ninja arts) it was a complete coincidence that i met him and started training with him but the experience really opened my eyes to the benefits of training in a physical space with another practitioner of the same art.

So , to be truthful it'll be hard to change my mind on this one. :s


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## StormShadow (Jun 5, 2013)

Dummy said:


> I've tried a wing chun online learning program i think it was more than a year ago , granted it helped but i didn't truly understand Wing chun until i started practicing with a friend who is to my knowledge the only other wc practitioner in my city( as it is a rarity in this country for people to practice anything other than karate or the ninja arts) it was a complete coincidence that i met him and started training with him but the experience really opened my eyes to the benefits of training in a physical space with another practitioner of the same art.
> 
> So , to be truthful it'll be hard to change my mind on this one. :s



Sorry to hear that.  On the other hand it's working for me based on the opinions of those whom I've touched hands with.  I guess it depends on the program and how it's actually taught and delivered online.  And the training partners you use to practice with.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 5, 2013)

Id like to think that it also depends a bit on why you want to learn (insert X here). 

I mean, if you take survival skills as an example, i think everyone should learn wilderness survival. But you dont have to go out and practice to get the information. So long as you can remember the important stuff, which can be taken just from some pictures and text, its not terribly hard to figure out. Now, on the other hand, if youre prepping for some theoretical apocalypse, or if just want to 'because', actual practice becomes imperative for your goals to be attainable.

If youre expecting to learn from scratch, and learn the nuances of the technical art, i doubt you can pull that off. But thats only one possible goal. If you set realistic goals with respect to the training method, of course it can work.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2013)

There's another issue, and that is that it's not difficult to see "results" and translate that into meaning that you are learning it.

It's not difficult to hurt someone.  You don't need a high level of skill to do so, you don't need perfect technique to do so, you don't need a sophisticated method or system to do so.  It's quite easy, in fact.

It's easy to hurt someone, or use a poorly done technique to hurt someone if you are athletic or physically strong.  The effectiveness in this case depends on the athleticism or on the strength, and it gets results even tho the technique itself is not done well, the principles of the system are not well understood nor utilized.  

So, if you believe you are learning a system from the video, I think there are other things to consider, other reasons why one might see "results" from their efforts.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> The voice of dissent here, as always. I will never endorse online/video instruction as the primary or only method of training. I believe it is fine as a supplement to direct and regular and frequent face-to-face instruction with a good instructor, and then only if the material used is directly connected to the same instructor. For example, if one's instructor created some videos to use as a reminder for students who are already working directly with him.
> 
> If you've learned some things directly from an instructor and then are travelling or relocating and not able to find another instructor, I believe you are much better off just practicing what you've already learned.



Agreed


Flying Crane said:


> I do not endorse visiting local schools who are not connected to your instructor, even in the same system, unless you are ready and willing to put aside what you've already learned and wholly embrace what you are learning from the new teacher.



Agree and diagree

On the agree side I am thinking Tung Kai Ying and Dong Zeng Chen both sons of Tung Hu Long and both Grandsons of Tung Ying Chieh but they do not look all that similar in form

On the disagree side Im thinking Chen Xiaowang, Chen Xiaoxing and Chen Zhenglei. Their traditional forms are very much the same however their short forms are different since they made uo their own. However even they teach some things in different orders at times

I have a more applicable Wing Chun comment that agrees with you but more on that later


Flying Crane said:


> Here's the thing: consistency is very important. Different schools of the same system often will do things differently, even if those differences are subtle and seem to be very slight. Often those minor and slight differences can make a huge huge difference in results. Or, those slight differences can simply create conflict in how things are done. You gotta keep a consistent methodology or your training becomes sort of scizophrenic.



Agree. I have trained with 2 different Wing Chun teachers. Both trace back solidly to Ip Man and both teach the main 3 forms different and those differences range from slight to great. And based on that you simply could not train with both and get anything and you would end up, as you said Schizophrenic.



Flying Crane said:


> Case in point: we've recently had a visitor who trained under the same teacher that my sifu trained under, altho during a later era than my teacher. This visitor would comment on what we were doing and sometimes demonstrate to illustrate his point. I could see very clearly that some very fundamental details of how he did his stuff, right down to the very basics, is different from how we do it. If I began adjusting what I was doing to be consistent with this visitor, it would completely disrupt the methodology that I've been taught by my sifu. It would be confusing and very problematic.



I have seen this in Yang Style Taiji and Chen if you have two teachers but this is generally one is a generationor more removed. However with that said I again point to Tung Kai Ying and Dong Zeng Chen to train with both I think would be a problem. Even though they both learned form their father, Tung Hu Ling. Although Tung Kai Ying also learned from his Grandfather Tung Ying Chieh.

Even my shifu and Tung Hu Ling, who both trained under Tung Ying Chieh, do the forms a little different, but not so much as to where I would see a problem if one were able to train with both.



Flying Crane said:


> I know a lot of people feel that training with a variety of teachers is a great thing. It CAN be, but it can also cause problems. You need to understand what those potential problems are, and who might be a good choice of someone to train with vs. someone who would not be good for you to train with. Training with other teachers can sort of give you exposure to someone else's vision of your system and that can be a good thing. But if you try to adopt everything that different teachers show you, you will end up with a lot of material that is inconsistent and problematic and it ends up kinda like a frankenstein's monster instead of a smooth and consistent methodology.



Yes, yes you can. Particularly if one teacher has a deeper understanding than the other



Flying Crane said:


> I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but that's my position on it. More isn't always better. Sometimes sticking with what little you've got and being really focused on it is much better.



Oh waitsorrygrrrrr I SOOOOOO disagree with you 

In more of an agreeing sort of way


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## StormShadow (Jun 5, 2013)

If you're in a program that is closely monitored by your Sifu, has help set in place where you have training partners, you're able to be critiqued by your sifu in person,  live and/or through video, You touch hands with your sifu periodically, you attend your school's camps, get togethers and train with other online students from your school, any perceived differences that someone may believe exists aren't there.  In my opinion, there likely trying to place themselves on a high plateau as their overall or capacity for skill is higher simply bc they're in a physical kwoon twice a week. I don't know about anyone else's online program structure but mine is pretty family oriented and has hybrid portions of it. I say you can pretty much learn everything online except for when sensitivity is needed.  You also need to be critiqued by your Sifu ( live in person if possible). Who knows, in 50 years with technology, you might be able to virtually feel chi soa too.  May even be able to chi soa against a virtual ip man. lol


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## StormShadow (Jun 5, 2013)

On the other side, if you are apart of a Everything online program, no partner needed, no camps ect.  Only practicing in the air, I believe you may be able to perfect forms, but you will not be really any good at application.  You need to apply what you learn and do that in a real fashion.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> If you're in a program that is closely monitored by your Sifu, has help set in place where you have training partners, you're able to be critiqued by your sifu in person, live and/or through video, You touch hands with your sifu periodically, you attend your school's camps, get togethers and train with other online students from your school, any perceived differences that someone may believe exists aren't there. In my opinion, there likely trying to place themselves on a high plateau as their overall or capacity for skill is higher simply bc they're in a physical kwoon twice a week. I don't know about anyone else's online program structure but mine is pretty family oriented and has hybrid portions of it. I say you can pretty much learn everything online except for when sensitivity is needed. You also need to be critiqued by your Sifu ( live in person if possible). Who knows, in 50 years with technology, you might be able to virtually feel chi soa too. May even be able to chi soa against a virtual ip man. lol



Sounds to me like this isn't really online learning.  If there is frequent face-to-face with the sifu, that is where the real learning is taking place.  Outside of that, with what you are describing, it sounds to me like it is just practice time on your own (which is important no matter what other arrangements are in place) with online or video supplements.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> On the other side, if you are apart of a Everything online program, no partner needed, no camps ect. Only practicing in the air, I believe you may be able to perfect technique, but you will not be really any good at application. You need to apply what you learn and do that in a real fashion.



You might be able to mimic what the technique looks like, even well enough to fool those who don't know much about it, but that's a far cry from perfecting it.


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## StormShadow (Jun 5, 2013)

No the program is online. I am just in constant contact with my sifu and visit the actual school when I can.


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## StormShadow (Jun 5, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> You might be able to mimic what the technique looks like, even well enough to fool those who don't know much about it, but that's a far cry from perfecting it.




To learn any form in MA you mimic it... I disagree.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> To learn any form in MA you mimic it... I disagree.



but there is much more to it than mimicry.  Mimicry does not mean understanding.  It doesn't mean you can do the technique well.  It doesn't mean you understand what drives the technique, where power comes from, etc.  Those things are often not visually apparent, and need a lot of direct feedback before you begin to understand it.  Mimicry only means that on the surface, on a superficial level, it looks like the same thing.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> No the program is online. I am just in constant contact with my sifu and visit the actual school when I can.



well then for you, it is not really online training.  Perhaps your results are better than for others in the program?  I dunno.

hey, ultimately if you are happy with it, then keep doing it.  From my experience, there are too many things deficient in the learning model, that cannot be made up without some serious face-to-face on a regular basis with a good instructor.  So I do not encourage it and I would never do it myself and I simply offer up my advice, which you are welcome to take or discard as you see fit.  But if you are satisfied with it, then keep doing it.


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## StormShadow (Jun 5, 2013)

Appreciate that.  I've studied other martial arts in a physical school before a few times a week.  And I do agree, many of the online programs look as if they are crap.  I've learned more from my sifu online in just a few months than months of training in a physical school previously.  Granted, I am comparing different arts but the fact remains, it depends on the Teacher, his program, your dedication, and the support the program provides.  It is certainly not impossible.  If done correctly, very achievable. So for those who aren't able to train in person constantly as they would like, I would advise them to conduct research and seek an authentic program with an authentic Sifu.  One who cares whether or not you are learning and applying wing chun principles correctly. Become part of a program where even though online, it's the closet thing you can get to a in person kwoon.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2013)

I'll add another thought or two here.   I don't know anything about you personally, nor about your skills and abilities.  But, IF IF IF it is possible for someone to actually learn in a quality way, a martial method and system online as the primary and/or only mode of instruction, then I think it is a rare individual who can be successful at it.  You say that it depends on the teacher and his program, and yes that would be true.  But it also depends heavily on the student trying to learn, and I would wager that the vast majority of people who might be inclined to try it will not have good results.  They may believe that they have good results, but in reality they will not.  So while there may be some gifted few who can be successful if they are using the right program, there are far far far more who will not be successful.  I think to present it as a mainstream option for anyone who wants to learn it would be misguided.

but of course this is also true of many students who train with a real teacher.  Many simply don't do well in the martial arts, regardless of the method of instruction.

That's my final two cents on it.


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## StormShadow (Jun 5, 2013)

My last thought on this, unless you are living with your sifu and training with him every day 5-7 days a week then a properly structured online program with in person training partners and live critiques by your sifu, are in actuality not very different from attending a kwoon, following along in class, then breaking up to do partner work, in my experience.  I will grant you that you need to be able to be redirected by your sifu with the sensitivity portion of wing chun, which is a great deal besides learning the forms. But, a proper online program should hold camps where it's students can attend and receive this interaction and possible corrections/adjustments to their application and or technique.  I was once of the mind set, "an online martial arts program... what the heck is that".  I gave it a try but just happened to find a thoroughly interactive program with sifu & community support.  I do not place limits on people. People can achieve some amazing things in the face of seemingly insurmountable obstacles.  In this case, there aren't any obstacles that insurmountable.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Agree. I have trained with 2 different Wing Chun teachers. Both trace back solidly to Ip Man and both teach the main 3 forms different and those differences range from slight to great. And based on that you simply could not train with both and get anything and you would end up, as you said Schizophrenic.



can't seem to help myself today, adding some more comments.  Anyway, I'm not a wing chun guy anymore, but I had something like 3-4 years of training thru a Community College phys. ed. program.  The sifu was a student of Chris Chan for about 30 years or so, and then became a student of Chris' brother Stanley, for a number of years, ten or so I think.  Well both Chris and Stanley were students of Ip Man, knew Bruce Lee, all that yadda yadda that doesn't mean a whole lot to me personally.

Anyway, Chris is known for taking a very power-heavy approach to the training.  His students do the forms, especially Siu Nim Tao with heavy tension, and build up power in that way.  They tend to be very heavy-handed when doing chi-sau.  This power-approach fundamentally guides how they do everything in their training.  Well that can work and some of those guys are pretty tough.  But I've heard some criticisms that a lot of wing chun doesn't approach it that way.  That power-heavy approach is not typical.  More emphasis is placed on sensitivity.  You might see Chris' power approach as wanting to use a hammer to fix everything, when a screwdriver might work better.  Sure, you can pound a screw in with a hammer.  It'll work.  But using a screwdriver will do it better, and won't strip the wood with the screw threads in the process so in the end it works better  The screw holds better when driven with a screwdriver, than when pounded with a hammer.

So if you train with a power-heavy approach, then train with a different sifu who doesn't work power in the same way, you will get conflicting instruction.  Which way do you practice?  It's not just a matter of the sequence of the forms being the same.  That's something else that Chris has done, he's modified the forms.  That's not such a big deal in my mind.  It's the underlying approach that he takes to his training and his instruction.  All that power.  It might be a valid approach in it's way (there are some tough fellows who train under him), but if you cross over with other teachers who don't take that same approach, that's where problems arise.  If you make a complete switch, then OK, but if you want to stay true to Chris' approach, AND follow someone else's approach without one giving way to the other, that's a real problem.

that's a real example of the kinds of conflicts that I'm thinking of.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> can't seem to help myself today, adding some more comments. Anyway, I'm not a wing chun guy anymore, but I had something like 3-4 years of training thru a Community College phys. ed. program. The sifu was a student of Chris Chan for about 30 years or so, and then became a student of Chris' brother Stanley, for a number of years, ten or so I think. Well both Chris and Stanley were students of Ip Man, knew Bruce Lee, all that yadda yadda that doesn't mean a whole lot to me personally.
> 
> Anyway, Chris is known for taking a very power-heavy approach to the training. His students do the forms, especially Siu Nim Tao with heavy tension, and build up power in that way. They tend to be very heavy-handed when doing chi-sau. This power-approach fundamentally guides how they do everything in their training. Well that can work and some of those guys are pretty tough. But I've heard some criticisms that a lot of wing chun doesn't approach it that way. That power-heavy approach is not typical. More emphasis is placed on sensitivity. You might see Chris' power approach as wanting to use a hammer to fix everything, when a screwdriver might work better. Sure, you can pound a screw in with a hammer. It'll work. But using a screwdriver will do it better, and won't strip the wood with the screw threads in the process so in the end it works better The screw holds better when driven with a screwdriver, than when pounded with a hammer.
> 
> ...



There was a bit more to it than just the forms. One used much more tension than the other. One was considerably more relaxed than the other and one actually had a better attitude than the other and his approach to teaching was much more friendly and relaxed and he is actually two generations away from Ip Man and the other is 1 generation away

I do not see how you could train with both and come out with anything coherent. There are to many approaches between them that come from opposite sides of the spectrum.

It was not only the forms



so HA...we agree again...that'll learn ya to mess with ME :uhyeah:


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> My last thought on this, unless you are living with your sifu and training with him every day 5-7 days a week then a properly structured online program with in person training partners and live critiques by your sifu, are in actuality not very different from attending a kwoon, following along in class, then breaking up to do partner work, in my experience. I will grant you that you need to be able to be redirected by your sifu with the sensitivity portion of wing chun, which is a great deal besides learning the forms. But, a proper online program should hold camps where it's students can attend and receive this interaction and possible corrections/adjustments to their application and or technique. I was once of the mind set, "an online martial arts program... what the heck is that". I gave it a try but just happened to find a thoroughly interactive program with sifu & community support. I do not place limits on people. People can achieve some amazing things in the face of seemingly insurmountable obstacles. In this case, there aren't any obstacles that insurmountable.



I think it depends on how often you are able to meet with the sifu and get those corrections, and what is the quality of that interaction time.  If it's a ton of students meeting all at once and sifu doesn't have the time to give one-on-one corrections, then the quality of the time spent isn't very high.  But, if there are frequent meetings with high quality interactions, then the online aspect becomes more of a supplementary issue.  Like I said earlier, the real instruction happens with sifu, while the online part just augments the practice time when away from the sifu.

I do not believe you need to be in class with sifu 5-7 times a week.  In fact, I believe that can be detrimental because it teaches you to be reliant on Sifu all the time.  It encourages you to NOT take ownership of the material and of your training.  As a beginner, it is more important to be in class more often, tho practice time alone is still important.  As your skill and knowledge increase, I would argue that it becomes more important to spend more of your time practicing on your own, and you need less time with Sifu.  If your foundation was properly built when you were a beginner and intermediate student, then as an advanced student your perceptive ability and your ability to understand the material and recognize how it all fits together is much greater.  You need less hand-holding from Sifu even when you are learning new material.  You can learn something new, and "own" it more quickly than you could as a beginner.  

But again, this all depends on how well your foundation was built in the beginning, and how well you understand the priciples of the system, vs. simply memorizing "the curriculum".  That curriculum should simply illustrate how the principles work.  It is more of an example and a way to practice the principles, rather than becoming an end in and of itself.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> I think it depends on how often you are able to meet with the sifu and get those corrections, and what is the quality of that interaction time. If it's a ton of students meeting all at once and sifu doesn't have the time to give one-on-one corrections, then the quality of the time spent isn't very high. But, if there are frequent meetings with high quality interactions, then the online aspect becomes more of a supplementary issue. Like I said earlier, the real instruction happens with sifu, while the online part just augments the practice time when away from the sifu.
> 
> I do not believe you need to be in class with sifu 5-7 times a week. In fact, I believe that can be detrimental because it teaches you to be reliant on Sifu all the time. It encourages you to NOT take ownership of the material and of your training. As a beginner, it is more important to be in class more often, tho practice time alone is still important. As your skill and knowledge increase, I would argue that it becomes more important to spend more of your time practicing on your own, and you need less time with Sifu. If your foundation was properly built when you were a beginner and intermediate student, then as an advanced student your perceptive ability and your ability to understand the material and recognize how it all fits together is much greater. You need less hand-holding from Sifu even when you are learning new material. You can learn something new, and "own" it more quickly than you could as a beginner.
> 
> But again, this all depends on how well your foundation was built in the beginning, and how well you understand the priciples of the system, vs. simply memorizing "the curriculum". That curriculum should simply illustrate how the principles work. It is more of an example and a way to practice the principles, rather than becoming an end in and of itself.



Basically if you are using DVD training and meeting with your shifu once a year for a couple days with 25 or more other people...... it is not going to work well.


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## StormShadow (Jun 5, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> can't seem to help myself today, adding some more comments.  Anyway, I'm not a wing chun guy anymore, but I had something like 3-4 years of training thru a Community College phys. ed. program.  The sifu was a student of Chris Chan for about 30 years or so, and then became a student of Chris' brother Stanley, for a number of years, ten or so I think.  Well both Chris and Stanley were students of Ip Man, knew Bruce Lee, all that yadda yadda that doesn't mean a whole lot to me personally.
> 
> Anyway, Chris is known for taking a very power-heavy approach to the training.  His students do the forms, especially Siu Nim Tao with heavy tension, and build up power in that way.  They tend to be very heavy-handed when doing chi-sau.  This power-approach fundamentally guides how they do everything in their training.  Well that can work and some of those guys are pretty tough.  But I've heard some criticisms that a lot of wing chun doesn't approach it that way.  That power-heavy approach is not typical.  More emphasis is placed on sensitivity.  You might see Chris' power approach as wanting to use a hammer to fix everything, when a screwdriver might work better.  Sure, you can pound a screw in with a hammer.  It'll work.  But using a screwdriver will do it better, and won't strip the wood with the screw threads in the process so in the end it works better  The screw holds better when driven with a screwdriver, than when pounded with a hammer.
> 
> ...



That's a good example. In fact, using that power approach fly's in the face of what wing chun is.  Ultimately, would you not end up using force against force?  What about the idea of when your opponent contracts you expand and vice versa?  If they were students of yip man then it seems odd they would adopt different principles that what wing chun is known for. To me it violates the whole economy of energy principle. That's interesting but if can see if you are taught regular wing chun principles vs the ones you've mentioned how that could be an issue but I would say that person has to decide what works for them in that case.


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## StormShadow (Jun 5, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Basically if you are using DVD training and meeting with your shifu once a year for a couple days with 25 or more other people...... it is not going to work well.



of course not if your aren't properly critiqued, using live video and applying it against a wing chun practitioner


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## StormShadow (Jun 5, 2013)

Just as it was once thought westerns could not learn the arts because they were not of the culture. My things have changed.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> That's a good example. In fact, using that power approach fly's in the face of what wing chun is. Ultimately, would you not end up using force against force? What about the idea of when your opponent contracts you expand and vice versa? If they were students of yip man then it seems odd they would adopt different principles that what wing chun is known for. To me it violates the whole economy of energy principle. That's interesting but if can see if you are taught regular wing chun principles vs the ones you've mentioned how that could be an issue but I would say that person has to decide what works for them in that case.



That is a common criticism of Chris' approach, tho like I said, he's got some tough students who can be very effective.  I'm not a wing chun guy so I'm not gonna comment on which is the better approach, but it's a good example of what kind of differences you might find out there, from one teacher to the next, even those who studied under the same teacher.  That's where the mix-and-match approach just really breaks down and can have some serious problems.  That's what I was getting at earlier when I was talking about consistency being very important.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Just as it was once thought westerns could not learn the arts because they were not of the culture. My things have changed.



That is not why westerners were not taught and to be totally honest if you truly want to do the CMA styles right you actually do need a bit of understanding of the culture from which they came


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## StormShadow (Jun 6, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> That is not why westerners were not taught and to be totally honest if you truly want to do the CMA styles right you actually do need a bit of understanding of the culture from which they came



It most certainly was part of the reason. To deny it is absurd. And I do agree you do also need to learn the culture from which it extended.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> It most certainly was part of the reason. To deny it is absurd. And I do agree you do also need to learn the culture from which it extended.



Sorry, no. Westerners were not denied access because they were not part of the culture, they were denied access for many reasons one of those being racial.

So to say it was not being part of the culture, which is defined as the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group. shows a lack of understanding of the word.

It had little to do with being part of the culture. You could be Kwai Chang Cane and born and raised in China but you are not going to be taught because you are half white. Not culture in that case, he would be part of the culture...that is racism.

And this has little to do with any of your post and is most certainly not a justification for learning a CMA via DVD. The fact that westerners were once not being taught any CMA, and they now are, has nothing to do with what you are proposing nor does it make your case in any way shape or form.


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## StormShadow (Jun 6, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Sorry, no. Westerners were not denied access because they were not part of the culture, they were denied access for many reasons one of those being racial.
> 
> So to say it was not being part of the culture, which is defined as the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group. shows a lack of understanding of the word.
> 
> ...




Please do not lecture me about the understanding of the word culture.  Culture - the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group.  Race and ethnicity do share similar characteristics.  How you cannot see that is evident on how you try to lecture me on the subject.  The reasoning for not teaching westerns was not only simply bc their skin was white. Factors stemmed from cultural aspects as well. So you're wrong.  

Another point that you fail to see is how it relates to the changing of mindsets.  Again, you cannot look beyond whats in front of you to see the grand picture.  Your statements actually justify your thinking and outlook.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Please do not lecture me about the understanding of the word culture. Culture - the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group. Race and ethnicity do share similar characteristics. How you cannot see that is evident on how you try to lecture me on the subject. The reasoning for not teaching westerns was not only simply bc their skin was white. Factors stemmed from cultural aspects as well. So you're wrong.
> 
> Another point that you fail to see is how it relates to the changing of mindsets. Again, you cannot look beyond whats in front of you to see the grand picture. Your statements actually justify your thinking and outlook.



Interesting response.....rather telling actually.... shows a lack of understanding of culture and history too..... not worth wasting time here anymore....

you have a nice day


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## wtxs (Jun 7, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Please do not lecture me about the understanding of the word culture.  Culture - the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group.  Race and ethnicity do share similar characteristics.  How you cannot see that is evident on how you try to lecture me on the subject.  The reasoning for not teaching westerns was not only simply bc their skin was white. Factors stemmed from cultural aspects as well. So you're wrong.
> 
> Another point that you fail to see is how it relates to the changing of mindsets.  Again, you cannot look beyond whats in front of you to see the grand picture.  Your statements actually justify your thinking and outlook.





Xue Sheng said:


> Interesting response.....*rather telling actually.... shows a lack of understanding of culture and history too*..... not worth wasting time here anymore....
> 
> you have a nice day



I'll have to agree with Xue Sheng, Stormshadow.  You do need an lesson in history my friend.  Amongst others, Google the Opium War.  

The racial issue (outsiders) has always been there, CMs are taught to chines only.  Only if you can go back in time ... then you can tell us we don't know sh$t.


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## StormShadow (Jun 7, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Interesting response.....rather telling actually.... shows a lack of understanding of culture and history too..... not worth wasting time here anymore....
> 
> you have a nice day



I decided this in my previous post as it pertained to your lack of understanding and viewing how topics are related. Poor vision. I hope you have a better day!


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## StormShadow (Jun 7, 2013)

Again, if you cannot understand how racial issues tie into cultural differences... there is nothing more to say.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 7, 2013)

Post error, my bad, see next post


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 7, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> I decided this in my previous post as it pertained to your lack of understanding and viewing how topics are related. Poor vision. I hope you have a better day!




So appreantly I have poor vision because I have a better understanding of, and more knowledge of Chinese history, culture and the Martial arts history of China than you... and I don't agree with your online/distance training silliness.....:hmm:....You know...I'm ok with that


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## StormShadow (Jun 7, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> So appreantly I have poor vision because I have a better understanding of, and more knowledge of Chinese history, culture and the Martial arts history of China than you... and I don't agree with your online/distance training silliness.....:hmm:....You know...I'm ok with that



haha @ silliness.... ok kid.
uhh yea... if you say so.


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## mograph (Jun 10, 2013)

What's the topic again?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 10, 2013)

mograph said:


> What's the topic again?




I am not sure&#8230;but apparently it is about my age and apparently I&#8217;m a kid&#8230;.I&#8217;m ok with being called a kid too&#8230;..


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## StormShadow (Jun 10, 2013)

You're right.  I apologize.  You have every right to your opinions and I respect that fact.


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## Kframe (Jun 16, 2013)

Flying crane, how can she make any improvement at all if she cant lay down roots to train? IF they already have a solid base, the online course can help.  Here is the rub with online. There needs to be interaction with the instructors. Now honestly this should not be a problem.  There are a number of video conferencing programs out there, and most people have video recorders on their laptops/computers any ways.   I would think regular video sessions  combined with self learning can work. At  some point though, you need a partner.  The Gracies are adamant about that. 

In there system, at Gracie Univeristy online, they have most of the  course as taught at the Gracie school online in the exact order you would learn it..  They make it clear that right off the bat you need a buddy.  Secondly, they have regular interaction. You send in the video and they critique it.  If its not good they will not promote you..  Is it perfect, no, but it fits with the philosophy of Helio Gracie, to bring GJJ to as many people as possible.  Now I don't have to use it, as I have a skilled grappler teaching me, but I am still watching and learning from it. 

I think that, as time goes on, you will see more distance learning of martial arts. Things like the Kinetic from X box has the potential to teach the basics and forms and drills at home.  I think that the difference between the crappy videos of the past and the distance learning of the future is that there will be increased direct interaction with a teacher via video conferencing. Combine that with linking up with a willing partner and it can work..  

Now if you use them to go over what you already know, that is probably the best way to do it. You can never work enough basics. 

Yes its not the same as a actual class, but its better then nothing. Doing nothing is not going to help you.


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## Kframe (Jun 16, 2013)

Wanted to add. Everytime these distance learning debates come up, the anti distance side only complains.  How bout making suggestions on how to improve online distance learning..   I stand by my suggestion of more video conferencing and interaction with the instructor.  Setting up a way to regularly link up with others is important.   

Colleges have proven distance learning... I have taken many class's online and have benefited from them immensely.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 16, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Wanted to add. Everytime these distance learning debates come up, the anti distance side only complains.  How bout making suggestions on how to improve online distance learning..   I stand by my suggestion of more video conferencing and interaction with the instructor.  Setting up a way to regularly link up with others is important.
> 
> Colleges have proven distance learning... I have taken many class's online and have benefited from them immensely.




Here is a great suggestion for distance training.

1.  Train regularly with an instructor in that system
2.  Travel and attend seminars and intensives with instructors in the system
3.  Use the distance training as an adjunct but not the main course of training

If you do the above particularly numbers 1 and 2 you have a good chance of not ingraining bad habits or learning poorly.  
However, if you just do learn from a video then you will definitely learn bad habits that you may never be able to undo.  I have seen this happen to people on more than one occasion!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 16, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Colleges have proven distance learning... I have taken many class's online and have benefited from them immensely.



Colleges have proven that you can actually learn course work from books and take tests online.  I would venture to say that they have not proven that you can learn physical applied sciences online.  They are very different!


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 16, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Colleges have proven that you can actually learn course work from books and take tests online. I would venture to say that they have not proven that you can learn physical applied sciences online. They are very different!



Exactly, I have done college courses online as well, but they teach theory and not so much application. You don't see online classes in Surgery classes but you can see online anatomy and physiology


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## Flying Crane (Jun 16, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Flying crane, how can she make any improvement at all if she cant lay down roots to train? IF they already have a solid base, the online course can help.  Here is the rub with online. There needs to be interaction with the instructors. Now honestly this should not be a problem.  There are a number of video conferencing programs out there, and most people have video recorders on their laptops/computers any ways.   I would think regular video sessions  combined with self learning can work. At  some point though, you need a partner.  The Gracies are adamant about that.
> 
> In there system, at Gracie Univeristy online, they have most of the  course as taught at the Gracie school online in the exact order you would learn it..  They make it clear that right off the bat you need a buddy.  Secondly, they have regular interaction. You send in the video and they critique it.  If its not good they will not promote you..  Is it perfect, no, but it fits with the philosophy of Helio Gracie, to bring GJJ to as many people as possible.  Now I don't have to use it, as I have a skilled grappler teaching me, but I am still watching and learning from it.
> 
> ...




I don't buy it.  I simply do not.  It is chock full of problems and not the way to go about it.  You don't have to agree with me.  But that's my position.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 16, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Wanted to add. Everytime these distance learning debates come up, the anti distance side only complains.  How bout making suggestions on how to improve online distance learning..   I stand by my suggestion of more video conferencing and interaction with the instructor.  Setting up a way to regularly link up with others is important.
> 
> Colleges have proven distance learning... I have taken many class's online and have benefited from them immensely.



face-to-face and hands-on.  Distance learning just isn't the way to do it.  It's not about trying to put a positive spin on it or looking for the positive aspects of it.  It's about this:  it's simply the wrong way to go about learning this kind of thing.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 16, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> face-to-face and hands-on.  Distance learning just isn't the way to do it.  It's not about trying to put a positive spin on it or looking for the positive aspects of it.  It's about this:  it's simply the wrong way to go about learning this kind of thing.



Totally agree!!!


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## Kframe (Jun 16, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Here is a great suggestion for distance training.
> 
> 1.  Train regularly with an instructor in that system
> 2.  Travel and attend seminars and intensives with instructors in the system
> ...



I agree with what you say..  How about this as another suggestion. How about instead of the videos being the primary lessons. The instructor sets up regular tri weekly live video conferences with his students. The students would preferably have a partner with them.  He could  lead the class and help individuals at the same time..  I think the videos can be used to teach things like the basics.  

You could have partner drills online as well, and then they would be reinforced with the tri weekly live class.. 

I have a interest in distance learning because for a good portion of my youth I lived in a town with no Martial arts with in 50 miles. Being that I was in college, I could not afford a car, so I was screwed.   Had a viable distance learning system been in place I could had a head start on where I am now.. 

I think tho, that certain systems lend themselves to partnered distance learning. GJJ is one of those systems. From the reviews I have read, and the videos I have seen the instruction is top notch.  Not all systems translate well into that kind of a format.


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## Kframe (Jun 16, 2013)

So basicly flying crane, if you cant get quality face to instruction, don't bother with martial arts ever.. WOW. 

Why is video conferencing a problem for you? IT is face to face..   How do you address someone who lives in a area with few choices, or no choices at all?  There is no other option.  I was in such a situation.. I lost valuable years of my youth because I had no were to train.. Had a well thought out distance learning system been in place I could have actually done some training instead of the bs I was doing to not be bored.. 

Your telling me, they can in no way help?  What about someone who wants to try a specific art, yet it does not exist in his or her state?  

Not even with video conferencing and and a regular partner?   

You cant accept that there are people and places were there is  little other options. 

I didn't ask you for a positive spin on it. I asked you to provide suggestions to improve it, so that people in situations were there is little martial arts available to them can train something..   So that the most amount of people have the opportunity to learn..


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 16, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I agree with what you say..  How about this as another suggestion. How about instead of the videos being the primary lessons. The instructor sets up regular tri weekly live video conferences with his students. The students would preferably have a partner with them.  He could  lead the class and help individuals at the same time..  I think the videos can be used to teach things like the basics.
> 
> You could have partner drills online as well, and then they would be reinforced with the tri weekly live class..
> 
> ...



If they were already students and *had a base in the system* and regularly met with their instructor.  Then they might get some benefit.  However, if there was no very regular feedback then I am afraid they would ingrain bad habits and hurt their training.  I cannot tell you how many times through the years I have had someone come to me and they learned some thing from a video. (particularly submission grappling)  Only to not really learn it properly and have ingrained bad habits that made it easy for someone who knew what they were doing to exploit.  In regards to the Gracie Jiujitsu program I think it is not good as well.  Sure they are going to turn out a few descent bjj practitioners but the vast majority will be crap. (maybe even craptastic)  They will miss fine details in the movement, they will ingrain bad habits over time and walla they in turn will be an inferior product in comparison to someone who goes to the Gracie Academy and practices there.  That is just the reality of the situation in my opinion!!!


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## Kframe (Jun 16, 2013)

Brian, so I presume that your ok with with idea of regular weekly video conferencing classroom sessions? Provided there was a partner for each student present?  

I think that the videos cant be the entire art.. Things like basics, and stances and movement drills can be done via video after the intial teaching.. I think that partner drills can also be online as well. Here is my take on it. The online content should be locked. In that, the students can only accsess it after they have had a number of video conference instruction sessions on those said drills.   No skipping ahead.   

None of this would be necessary if arts other then diluted sport karate and tkd were available in more parts of the world.  I would love to try wing chung, but sadly all I have with in a hours drive is a green sash wing chung guy, who also teaches Juan fan...  Something about it seems mcdojoish..


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## Leam (Jun 16, 2013)

The feedback loop is a critical part of learning. You can practice and then get in fights, or you can practice and spend time getting a critique from a teacher. Books and on-line beat nothing but physical skills are tougher to learn without someone who knows what they are doing giving you feedback. 

Use books and on-line for what you can get from them and find a teacher you can visit as often as you can. It may not be ideal, but you, and only you, can determine what your life priorities are. 

Leam


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## Flying Crane (Jun 16, 2013)

Kframe said:


> So basicly flying crane, if you cant get quality face to instruction, don't bother with martial arts ever.. WOW.



essentially, yes.  Life isn't fair.  I'm not trying to be mean about it, just honest.  sometimes things simply are not available to you.  If you want it, go to it.  I did.  I moved from Wisconsin to San Francisco in order to be able to train with the people I felt were the best.  that was my decision.  But if it isn't available, there are some things for which there simply are no other acceptable alternatives.  You'd be better off reading books and doing intellectual research, rather than pursuing distance learning like this.

If you want to believe distance and video learning will work, then go for it.  You don't need my permission.  But I promise you, the results will be no better than 5th rate.  The problem is, you won't be able to recognize it for what it is.  You will think it's great, or at least good enough.  I'm doing you a kindness: I'm giving you the truth.  I'm not going to lie to you and deceive you and help you believe something that isn't true.  If you want to believe it, well at least it wasn't me who lied to you or mislead you.



> Why is video conferencing a problem for you? IT is face to face..



No, it isn't.  It's thru a camera.  You CANNOT see and critique as well thru a camera, as you can face-to-face.  There are too many subtleties that are not perceivable or correctable when there is a camera between the sifu and the student.  It's simply not the same thing.



> How do you address someone who lives in a area with few choices, or no choices at all?  There is no other option.  I was in such a situation.. I lost valuable years of my youth because I had no were to train.. Had a well thought out distance learning system been in place I could have actually done some training instead of the bs I was doing to not be bored..



see above.



> Your telling me, they can in no way help?  What about someone who wants to try a specific art, yet it does not exist in his or her state?



see above.



> Not even with video conferencing and and a regular partner?



nope.



> You cant accept that there are people and places were there is  little other options.



oh, I do accept it.  I know it all too well.  I grew up in such a place.  see above.



> I didn't ask you for a positive spin on it. I asked you to provide suggestions to improve it, so that people in situations were there is little martial arts available to them can train something..   So that the most amount of people have the opportunity to learn..



it's not improvable.  It simply is not the venue for it.


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## yak sao (Jun 17, 2013)

I'm coming in rather late to the conversation. I tend to stay away from these of late because there is no convincing the person who wants to learn long distance that it is not a good idea.
 I live smack in the middle of nowhere...not a lot of kung fu to be found here. So I went and got it. I brought in instructors on a monthly basis for years and when they weren't coming to me, I was going to them.
 I've done this for something like 20 years now; it can be done.

 I have had many people over the years come to me saying they know this or that about Wing Tsun, only to find out that they picked it up from books or video. I don't ridicule them, I don't make fun of them. Quite honestly, I appreciate their plight: they wanted to learn, but it wasn't available to them, so they did what they thought was the next best thing.

 But time and time again these people prove that learning from video/books/online does not work. There is no substance to what they are doing. Their technique may look terrific, they may have it mimicked down to the most minute detail, but when it is pressure tested it falls apart.

 And I'm not talking balls out, "show me what you got" pressure testing. I'm talking simple things like being able to resist a minor push without toppling back in their stance, being able to disperse a heavy punch with a tan sau, without it collapsing in on them, being able to feel a punch coming from underneath and stopping it with a proper jum sau. 

 These are all basic things taught within the first couple of classes, yet these guys have "learned the whole system" from video and can't even do these things....so learning online?.......I'm not a fan.


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## mograph (Jun 17, 2013)

Distance learning is communicated by seeing and hearing, not touching.


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## StormShadow (Jun 17, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I agree with what you say..  How about this as another suggestion. How about instead of the videos being the primary lessons. The instructor sets up regular tri weekly live video conferences with his students. The students would preferably have a partner with them.  He could  lead the class and help individuals at the same time..  I think the videos can be used to teach things like the basics.
> 
> You could have partner drills online as well, and then they would be reinforced with the tri weekly live class..
> 
> ...



Wing chun as well as you know is certainly a partnered system.  My online program is pretty much that.  We are critiqued personally by live video, video and in person ( if you can make it to the kwoon, which I can). We all have wing chun training partners.  My partner studied with my sifu at his school for years, so I am a lucky one to have an experienced wing chun partner.  I've already been corrected by my sifu as he could see some things I was doing wrong.  As a person who has studied the traditional way and the online way, the online way works too.  The program just has to be "Very" interactive between student to sifu and student to student as well as having a viable partner.  If you can be corrected by your sifu, touch hands with him and other students from time to time, and have a viable training partner also of the same art, I say you have all the true support you need to become successful.  The rest is up to you and how well you train.


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## StormShadow (Jun 17, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> If they were already students and *had a base in the system* and regularly met with their instructor.  Then they might get some benefit.  *However, if there was no very regular feedback then I am afraid they would ingrain bad habits and hurt their training*.  I cannot tell you how many times through the years I have had someone come to me and they learned some thing from a video. (particularly submission grappling)  Only to not really learn it properly and have ingrained bad habits that made it easy for someone who knew what they were doing to exploit.  In regards to the Gracie Jiujitsu program I think it is not good as well.  Sure they are going to turn out a few descent bjj practitioners but the vast majority will be crap. (maybe even craptastic)  They will miss fine details in the movement, they will ingrain bad habits over time and walla they in turn will be an inferior product in comparison to someone who goes to the Gracie Academy and practices there.  That is just the reality of the situation in my opinion!!!




I think there is confusion between an online program and learning from a bunch of videos.  Yes, if you purchase a slew of videos off amazon to train from than I say your assessment is spot on.  You likely will develop bad habits with no one regularly "Over-seeing" your progress.  If you are apart of an online program where the sifu is responsible for "over-seeing" your progress and corrects your mistakes then I fail to see where the bad habits come into play.

There are many wing chun practitioners whom studied at a physical kwoon yet their wing chun is not very good.  I don't see the issue being the format of delivery but rather the student practicing.  So to say a student in a well supported online program by the sifu with all the possible trimmings outside of a 2 day a week kwoon visit would not become good is not accurate in my opinion.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 17, 2013)

There is in my opinion no way an instructor can provide adequate feedback to a student who is studying from their videos online.  By the time they could do it the student probably has already ingrained bad habits.  Take for instance I was teaching a student just the other day.  We were working on a handgun disarm and I noticed as he was practicing it on me that he twice flashed his own bicep with the muzzle while doing the disarm.  Done correctly this would not happen.  I immediately told him what he was doing.  I also showed to him what he was doing and how to correct it.  We proceeded to train and he did not make that mistake again.  No online sifu/instructor is going to be able to provide that kind of feedback even if they were doing the online training in real time.  How can I say that?  Well if you were not training with the person and looking at what he was doing from another angle you more than likely would have missed his mistake and he would have ingrained a very bad habit.  I have mentioned before that I have had quite a few people come in and train after having learned a submission move.  Unfortunately most of the time they learned it superficially with no depth or incorrectly.  I then had to show them their mistake or where the holes in it are or how easily it is countered because of this mistake they have ingrained.  Now I am not saying that you cannot learn some stuff provided you have a good base in the system you are working within and a real instructor that you are training with who can correct you.  What I am saying is that if this is your choice in learning the Martial Sciences then be prepared for lots of bad habits, poor skills and probably a craptastic experience.  It is much better to instead choose a real instructor, travel to them and or seminars and learn slowly with lots of corrections and hands on experience along the way!  Hope that helps!


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## StormShadow (Jun 17, 2013)

Certainly, which is why a good online program will provide multiple day bootcamps where you are touching hands with your sifu/sensi so bad habits don't last forever.  As I mentioned before, I've seen poor skills from those in a regular kwoon as I have good skill. Saying all online students will have poor skills most likely is a fallacy in actuality.  Granted some aspects greatly benefit from hand to hand contact with the sifu to ensure you are doing it correctly.  I certainly agree with that.  Again, for me it depends on the program and the level of interaction between students and your sifu whether or not we can label a format as crap, feasible or good.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 17, 2013)

*The problem is* once you have ingrained a bad habit it is really, really, really hard to take care of it.   We are going to agree to disagree here.  If you want to do online training or worse teach that way that is your prerogative.  Understand though that if you are learning you are probably learning poorly and the end result will more than likely be crap.  If your teaching and accepting money for it well that is just not cool in my book.  It's one thing to help your students out by having videos/online for them to study with regular and I mean weekly training that they can be corrected and get hands on feedback.  It's totally different if someone is just throwing crap out into the world taking money and saying learn it without regular feedback.  Just sayin........


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## mograph (Jun 17, 2013)

StormShadow, I think your program is actually classified as "blended learning:" a combination of online and live (hands-on) instruction.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 17, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Brian, so I presume that your ok with with idea of regular weekly video conferencing classroom sessions? Provided there was a partner for each student present?


 
I'm not Brian but I am not ok with this at all unless the person in the room with you has a whole lot of experience, otherwise you are two people with not experience and no real training trying to learn together via video/Video conferencing. A teacher, a real one that cares about the art he is teacing anyway, has to be in the room to see in 3 dimensions and to feel and to demonstrate, at times, by feel.


But I think I am at the same place Brian is on all of this, and likely the same place as Flying Crane too



Brian R. VanCise said:


> The problem is once you have ingrained a bad habit it is really, really, really hard to take care of it. We are going to agree to disagree here. If you want to do online training or worse teach that way that is your prerogative. Understand though that if you are learning you are probably learning poorly and the end result will more than likely be crap. If your teaching and accepting money for it well that is just not cool in my book. It's one thing to help your students out by having videos/online for them to study with regular and I mean weekly training that they can be corrected and get hands on feedback. It's totally different if someone is just throwing crap out into the world taking money and saying learn it without regular feedback. Just sayin........


 

I agree fully with what Brian posted and I don't think I could have said it better than that


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## StormShadow (Jun 17, 2013)

Yes hands on feedback is ideal.  With an online program, likely not feasible. Certainly receiving hands on feedback every other month, every month, or every 6 months is not a hindrance to learning.  Especially with intensive bootcamps can likely straighten things out that need be.  If a sifu is genuine in intent by stepping into the 21st century to spread of the art of wing chun, then I say go for it. Wing chun is not a art like karate or mma where there is a school in every gym or every 10 miles. And if that said sifu is taking time away from his family to genuine interact, teach and correct his online students be it through live video or in person, I think he should be compensated unless money doesn't help sustain a person's livelihood anymore. 

Alternatively, if said sifu just chucked up a bunch of vids and say pay me $60 per vid and you do not interact, speak with or see that sifu then likely everything you say stands.  This is just how I view it.  Also, if that sifu mentions you do not need a partner than that is also a red flag.

And honestly, there seems to be more effort involved in filming weekly lessons for an online program as opposed to teaching in class.  You have to be percise in everything you do to convey as much information as possible. A reason why correction in a online program should be more intensive than in a regular school.  And if the sifu cannot see from the video whether or not you are using proper form, he/she can always as you to make another with the appropriate angle.  

So basically, we are going to have to agree to disagree as you've mentioned.  Though, I agree with you on some points.


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## yak sao (Jun 17, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *The problem is* once you have ingrained a bad habit it is really, really, really hard to take care of it.   We are going to agree to disagree here.  If you want to do online training or worse teach that way that is your prerogative.  Understand though that if you are learning you are probably learning poorly and the end result will more than likely be crap.  If your teaching and accepting money for it well that is just not cool in my book.  It's one thing to help your students out by having videos/online for them to study with regular and I mean weekly training that they can be corrected and get hands on feedback.  It's totally different if someone is just throwing crap out into the world taking money and saying learn it without regular feedback.  Just sayin........



When we were first learning the Character Two stance, our si-fu would go around to each one of us and physically make adjustments to each of our stances. Push in here, pull out there. Nudge our knees in or out with his feet...that sort of thing.
This went on for several weeks. It started out as gross adjustments and over time became fine tuning.
One of my classmates was having a hard time getting comfortable in the stance. Si-fu would come around and adjust his hips, push him this way and that, getting him into a proper stance and go on to the next person. As soon as si-fu turned his back on him, my classmate went back to what was comfortable for him, even though he was just physically placed into the proper stance. 
This went on for weeks on end until one day, si-fu placed him in the proper stance and something "clicked", and he stayed put. Had he been doing this via video he never would have had that "aha" moment....or at the very least, the bad habit would have been so deeply ingrained it would have been next to impossible to overcome.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 17, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *The problem is* once you have ingrained a bad habit it is really, really, really hard to take care of it.



agreed, and I'll take it a step farther:  there are a hundred little details that all add up to doing it well or not doing it well.  Those little details just cannot be conveyed thru this medium.  It's just not possible.  It is limited to gross imitation, and that doesn't cut it.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 17, 2013)

yak sao said:


> When we were first learning the Character Two stance, our si-fu would go around to each one of us and physically make adjustments to each of our stances. Push in here, pull out there. Nudge our knees in or out with his feet...that sort of thing.
> This went on for several weeks. It started out as gross adjustments and over time became fine tuning.
> One of my classmates was having a hard time getting comfortable in the stance. Si-fu would come around and adjust his hips, push him this way and that, getting him into a proper stance and go on to the next person. As soon as si-fu turned his back on him, my classmate went back to what was comfortable for him, even though he was just physically placed into the proper stance.
> This went on for weeks on end until one day, si-fu placed him in the proper stance and something "clicked", and he stayed put. Had he been doing this via video he never would have had that "aha" moment....or at the very least, the bad habit would have been so deeply ingrained it would have been next to impossible to overcome.



BINGO!  Corrections need to be made over and over and over and over, time and again.  Getting corrections once a month, or once every six months, that's nowhere near often enough to get it.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 17, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Certainly receiving hands on feedback every other month, every month, or every 6 months is not a hindrance to learning. Especially with intensive bootcamps can likely straighten things out that need be.



it absolutely is a hindrance, it is not nearly enough to get the lessons thru.



> If a sifu is genuine in intent by stepping into the 21st century to spread of the art of wing chun, then I say go for it.



see, this is completely irrelevant.  So it's the 21st Century, so what?  Technology exists, but that doesn't mean it's the best choice for everything.  For some things, martial arts being one of those things, the old way of face-to-face and hands-on training is what works best.  That's all there is to it.  Coming into the 21st century just isn't relevant to this issue.


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## StormShadow (Jun 17, 2013)

We will just agree to disagree.  Especially if the student has opportunity to be corrected and has leisure to revisit older lessons from any point and those lesson are in angles not even usually viewable in a face to face setting. As we move forward in the 21st century and tech deepens, more and more sifu's will try this format out.  They've already started because they know structured, taught and supported properly there is no reason why a student cannot learn.  

Also to the point you cannot learn surgery online : http://www.intumed.com/


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 17, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Also to the point you cannot learn surgery online : http://www.intumed.com/



There not learning surgery on line

From the page you linked



> Surgeons in training have hectic schedules and finding time to study can be an added challenge. IntuMed's e-learning solution brings interactive material to the surgeons' fingertips via the Internet, 24/7. This program is geared for PGY1 and PGY2 surgical residents focusing on clinical surgery and basic science using multimedia and engaging content to promote learning by doing.



The page is for additional study for surgical residents focusing on clinical surgery. This means they are working in a hospital to become surgeons. This supports the statement I have made many times before about DVD learning. It is at best a supplement to regular training with a teacher.

The link you have supplied is just that, supplementary training


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## Flying Crane (Jun 17, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> There not learning surgery on line
> 
> From the page you linked
> 
> ...



and, I believe it's already been mentioned here but bears repeating: yes, you can learn intellectual material and thought provoking IDEAS thru online or video instruction.  You can even successfully take tests on the material and show your mastery.  But that's not the same thing as a physical skill.  For some subjects, online or video instruction works just fine.  For other subjects, it's nothing short of a disaster.


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## Kframe (Jun 17, 2013)

I can understand what you guys are saying.. I will give this topic much thought..  Ill say this though. The gracie combatives progamm is working for me, because of 2 reasons. A I have a grappling coach, and b I have experience with bjj.  I never considered those qualities when mentioning gjj combatives course.   I didnt occur to me, that I was using it as a supplement to my current training and not the primary source..   

Im reading some convincing arguments here.   Is my experience with the gracie combatives program irrelevant? Should that experience effect my opinion of distance learning over all?  How should I factor it in?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 17, 2013)

You have a bjj coach, you train and supplement it with the gracie combatives program.  I assume if you start doing anything wrong you coach will correct you and keep you from ingraining bad habits.  Sounds like a nice way to supplement your training!


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## mograph (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Yes hands on feedback is ideal.



Ah. Here's the nub of it: you believe it is "ideal", while myself and others believe it is _necessary_.



StormShadow said:


> If a sifu is genuine in intent by stepping into the 21st century to spread of the art of wing chun, then I say go for it.



If stepping into the 21st century means diminishing the value of an art, then you're welcome to it. You're setting up a straw man argument here, so I'm calling you on it. You're implying that those who do not support online martial arts learning are Luddites, but if you've been paying attention to the march of technology, it has been moving people away from physical contact. Such "progress" cannot be beneficial to an art dependent on subtle skills derived from physical contact. Of course we're in the 21st century, but we must not let our tools (e.g. the internet) cloud our vision and dictate our choices. Computers and means of distance communication are just tools, and if we think they can improve _everything_ in our lives, we would have let marketers ("drive the information superhighway!") frame the discussion. Sorry -- I'm not going to use a screwdriver to hammer a nail.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2013)

mograph said:


> Sorry -- I'm not going to use a screwdriver to hammer a nail.



But sometimes I'd like to use my computer to hammer a nail...


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## yak sao (Jun 18, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> But sometimes I'd like to use my computer to hammer a nail...




Or use a hammer to beat my computer.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2013)

yak sao said:


> Or use a hammer to beat my computer.



I think that's actually a better way of putting it.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> There not learning surgery on line
> 
> From the page you linked
> 
> ...



You're quite welcome.  Actually they are gaining practical knowledge online as well as practicing on the human body and practicals through basically following a surgeon around.  Good online programs incorporate distance learning as well as partnering and contact with your teacher at different point in time.  If may or may not take longer to learn this way but it certainly works for the serious student.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

You can take from it what you will.  Unless I specifically state that which you're accusing me of, than that's not what I meant.  Actually I do pay attention to technology, I would hope so at least being a software engineer.  Because of computers, you have online banking, medical equipment that saves your life, safer vehicles, in dept entertainment, a site to come visit and converse with your kung fu brothers, so on and son on.  I would say technology is far more than communication and the catalyst that progresses the human race forward.  I appreciate your opinions as you offer a different argument.  I would just prefer to judge individuals on individual skill and not from the medium in which they learned it.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> I would just prefer to judge individuals on individual skill and not from the medium in which they learned it.



we do, actually.  We judge someones skills for what they are.  Where they learned their skills often gives the answer to why they are good, or, um...not so good.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> we do, actually.  We judge someones skills for what they are.  Where they learned their skills often gives the answer to why they are good, or, um...not so good.



I would say rather who they learned from and even that isn't always the case.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2013)

This isn't an issue of pedigree.  Actually, in Chinese and Japanese martial arts, lineage does matter.  It matters quite a lot, actually.  It's only in western places like the US where people are happy to do whatever they want, that these issues get tossed aside.  

I get the American free-thinking, innovation, by your own person mentality.  It makes sense and works in a lot of ways.  But it's not compatible with certain things.  In Asian martial arts, lineage is important because not everyone out there actually has the knowledge and skill they might be claiming.  Knowing your lineage and the history of your method can help you judge who can walk the walk and who is worth learning from.  It helps you make good decisions about who to apprentice yourself to, in learning this stuff.  

But that's a whole different discussion than simply online or distance learning.  A good lineage holder could offer online instruction.  I still wouldn't trust it.  He may really know his stuff and be a good teacher in his own right.  But that doesn't mean online learning is a good idea.  

A legitimate lineage-holder should know better, by the way, and shouldn't be offering it in this manner.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> You're quite welcome. Actually they are gaining practical knowledge online as well as practicing on the human body and practicals through basically following a surgeon around. Good online programs incorporate distance learning as well as partnering and contact with your teacher at different point in time. If may or may not take longer to learn this way but it certainly works for the serious student.



But that is not distance learning of surgery.

It is a regular, hands on learning by surgical residents focusing on clinical surgery that also are using this online program to supplement their training. It is not online training and the occasional meet at a hospital it is the constant 24/7 grueling residency with a bit of online help.

This is not the same thing that you are talking about, this is not incorporating distance learning as well as partnering and contact with your teacher at different point in time. This is constant contact with those who are training you and when you have time going online. The online bit is at best secondary in this situation


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> I would say rather who they learned from and even that isn't always the case.



who they learned from, but also the manner in which they gained their instruction.

some people like to get a few lessons from a famous person and then claim to have "trained under" that person.  It's misleading.  Just because they brushed shoulders for a short time, or had a few lessons over a period of time, doesn't mean there was a legitimate teacher-student relationship.  The real question is not, "who do you claim was your teacher", but rather, "does the teacher claim you as his student?"  The answer to that question is far more telling.

If a famous person is offering online instruction, then it's like brushing shoulders with him for a short period.  It just doesn't add up to quality instruction, even tho the teacher may otherwise be very capable.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> You can take from it what you will. Unless I specifically state that which you're accusing me of, than that's not what I meant. Actually I do pay attention to technology, I would hope so at least being a software engineer. Because of computers, you have online banking, medical equipment that saves your life, safer vehicles, in dept entertainment, a site to come visit and converse with your kung fu brothers, so on and son on. I would say technology is far more than communication and the catalyst that progresses the human race forward. I appreciate your opinions as you offer a different argument. I would just prefer to judge individuals on individual skill and not from the medium in which they learned it.



You also have hacker, crackers, viruses, trojans, theft fraund and cyber attacks too. Yeah I'm in the whole computer thing too....just on the security side.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

I've heard the stories of student/teacher having a fallout disagreement than cutting ties.  Unless you have first hand accounts in these situations, it's merely formulating an opinion on limited knowledge.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> You also have hacker, crackers, viruses, trojans, theft fraund and cyber attacks too. Yeah I'm in the whole computer thing too....just on the security side.



ok..


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> I've heard the stories of student/teacher having a fallout disagreement than cutting ties. Unless you have first hand accounts in these situations, it's merely formulating an opinion on limited knowledge.



I'm not following what you are saying by this.  Yes, splits and disagreements happen.  where does that relate here?


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

You're eluding to watching some video, performing movements not understanding the sensitivity aspect of the art.  I am talking about following a weekly training program to progress you from point A to Point Z, touching hands with the teacher whom is teaching and working with another wing chun partner who perhaps has more experience than you have, while on the sensitivity aspect of the art.  Oh and by the way, being in live constant communication, phone, net and in person with the sifu.  I fail to see how someone "could not get it" i'm sorry.  Unless they are not serious about learning or an idiot, they should be able to not only learn but own it.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> You're eluding to watching some video, performing movements not understanding the sensitivity aspect of the art. I am talking about following a weekly training program to progress you from point A to Point Z, touching hands with the teacher whom is teaching and working with another wing chun partner who perhaps has more experience than you have, while on the sensitivity aspect of the art. Oh and by the way, being in live constant communication, phone, net and in person with the sifu. I fail to see how someone "could not get it" i'm sorry. Unless they are not serious about learning or an idiot, they should be able to not only learn but own it.



Working directly with a teacher, meaning being physically there with a teacher, allows the teacher to physically adjust your postures, movement, application, etc. And do it constantly until you get it. That cannot happen over the phone ot by e-mail or even with the ocassinal meeting. And working with another inexperienced person will just create more bad habits since you are both working based on "I think this is what he is doing" or I think this is how it works" and neither actually knows.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> You're eluding to watching some video, performing movements not understanding the sensitivity aspect of the art. I am talking about following a weekly training program to progress you from point A to Point Z, touching hands with the teacher whom is teaching and working with another wing chun partner who perhaps has more experience than you have, while on the sensitivity aspect of the art. Oh and by the way, being in live constant communication, phone, net and in person with the sifu. I fail to see how someone "could not get it" i'm sorry. Unless they are not serious about learning or an idiot, they should be able to not only learn but own it.



two questions:  1) how often meeting with the sifu, face-to-face.
2) how much more experienced than you, is your training partner?

You could have a month of experience and your training partner could have a month and a half.  That doesn't put his ability above yours.  You are both raw beginners.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> ok..



Basically you example is about as much of a justification for your argument as mine they really are not realted to the good or bad of online training.

If you are able to get together with an actual shifu on a regualar basis I highly recommend it...then talk about distance learning and how good it is


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> There are many wing chun practitioners whom studied at a physical kwoon yet their wing chun is not very good. I don't see the issue being the format of delivery but rather the student practicing. So to say a student in a well supported online program by the sifu with all the possible trimmings outside of a 2 day a week kwoon visit would not become good is not accurate in my opinion.



You said this yesterday and I meant to comment on it.  

Your observation is valid: lots of people who train in a real kwoon don't get it.  That's the nature of martial arts: it's tricky, it takes a lot of work and a lot of insights, and many people, under the best conditions, aren't up to it, are not able to thrive in it.  

so the question is, how could somebody hope to thrive if they are further removed from the instruction by separation thru the internet or phone or video conferencing or whatever other method?  How does that jive?  Most people don't thrive under the best conditions.  They certainly can't thrive from a greater distance.

You want to describe the internet experience as "being connected" in this manner.  I don't see it that way, at least not for martial arts.  In this case, it is being separated and being handicapped by internet interaction.  In this case, the internet is a hindrance, not a help.  It is an obstacle.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> two questions:  1) how often meeting with the sifu, face-to-face.
> 2) how much more experienced than you, is your training partner?
> 
> You could have a month of experience and your training partner could have a month and a half.  That doesn't put his ability above yours.  You are both raw beginners.



1. Live video- weekly, In person- that depends on where the student is located.  If you can do once or twice a month great.  If you live in the UK and can only make workshops and bootcamp, great.

2. Mine has 10 yrs experience over me.  Studied in a traditional kwoon of course. He sees no difference in my skill vs another whom visits a traditional kwoon twice or once a week.  I've made the same mistakes as others have made in a brick building. In some cases, I have actually performed better than students he has trained with in the past.  To each it's own I guess.  Learning at own pace in that you can revisit lessons definitely has its benefits.  

Though, even if he didn't have the training he has over me, two students with equal beginner ability can still progress.  Yes, they will make mistakes and yes that need to be corrected.  That's what learning is, you make mistakes and you learn from it.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> You said this yesterday and I meant to comment on it.
> 
> Your observation is valid: lots of people who train in a real kwoon don't get it.  That's the nature of martial arts: it's tricky, it takes a lot of work and a lot of insights, and many people, under the best conditions, aren't up to it, are not able to thrive in it.
> 
> ...




Could possibly be an obstacle for some.  Though not all.  It's always more than one way to skin a cat.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> You said this yesterday and I meant to comment on it.
> 
> Your observation is valid: lots of people who train in a real kwoon don't get it.  That's the nature of martial arts: it's tricky, it takes a lot of work and a lot of insights, and many people, under the best conditions, aren't up to it, are not able to thrive in it.
> 
> ...



Having studied martial arts in a traditional setting previously, If the online program didn't work for me, I would have stated that so others knew what my experiences were.  I apologize that it can & does actually work.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> 1. Live video- weekly, In person- that depends on where the student is located. If you can do once or twice a month great. If you live in the UK and can only make workshops and bootcamp, great.



in my opinion, this is not enough.  Yak Sau posted a little while back about his classmate who was getting constant correction for the same error before he was finally able to correct it.  That repeated correction doesn't happen enough if you meet once or twice a month, certainly not if it's just workshops and bootcamps once or twice a year.  I just do not believe it is enough to get it right, to get the corrections you need, as often as needed.



> 2. Mine has 10 yrs experience over me. Studied in a traditional kwoon of course. He sees no difference in my skill vs another whom visits a traditional kwoon twice or once a week. I've made the same mistakes as others have made in a brick building. In some cases, I have actually performed better than students he has trained with in the past. To each it's own I guess. Learning at own pace in that you can revisit lessons definitely has its benefits.



If your training partner has ten solid years of good training, then he could be at a sifu level.  In this case, you are not really learning from the Sifu thru the distance program.  You are learning from your training partner.  He is your real sifu, tho the head Sifu may be the one with oversite.  This is a common kind of arrangement in the martial arts, where branch schools will get oversight from some head master or something.  Using the internet or video conferencing for the oversite is a newer approach, and I don't agree with it for that either, but it's not the same as learning thru a distance program.  

In your case you may need to acknowledge that your reality is more traditional and you are not really learning from the head sifu thru a distance program.  The distance portion is merely supplemental, perhaps gives your training partner some guidance on curriculum structure for you, but he is really the one teaching you and it is face-to-face and in person.

Take that one element out of the mix, your training partner.  Replace him with someone of your level and if the two of you started from ground zero together I believe you could not progress in this way.



> hough, even if he didn't have the training he has over me, two students with equal beginner ability can still progress. Yes, they will make mistakes and yes that need to be corrected. That's what learning is, you make mistakes and you learn from it.



I think it would be a game-changer, if you and your training partner were both beginners together and tried to work thru a distance program.  It would be really difficult to the point of unrealistic, to try and get the corrections often enough for them to sink in.  I don't believe it's possible.

Also keep in mind, the physical techniques and curriculum of the system are not really what the training is about.  Those are just tools that are used to help you develop a set of skills.  Getting the physical movement "perfect" so that it looks just like sifu, isn't the point and isn't a measure of your skill.  It's what you can do with the skills that matter.  And that takes a level of insight that isn't built without exposure.  Being in the kwoon with a teacher and with other classmates is where those more nebulous lessons sink in.  If you don't have much of that kind of exposure, then you never develop real skill, even tho you may learn the complete system, the full curriculum.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Having studied martial arts in a traditional setting previously, If the online program didn't work for me, I would have stated that so others knew what my experiences were. I apologize that it can & does actually work.



Don't apologize for your position.  You clearly believe in this.  others of us do not.  It's just debate, it's not the end of the world.  The sun WILL still come up tomorrow morning.

But this topic does seem to come up regularly here.  We who are vocal here will speak up because we are sharing the fruits of our training and experience.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Much of what you say is mere theory with out much scientific evidence to back it coupled with alot of opinion.  I think I would know whether or not my training partner is my sifu lol.  Was your training partner your sifu when you began learning? In all, I am not going to reiterate with long drawn out paragraphs. You do not believe it works, that's great.  I believe it works, that's great.  

BTW, as far as looking like the sifu, I am trying to build my own personal kung fu by using the tools he teaches me.  You are correct, the measure of your skill in essence is how you apply the principles to your life as well as how well can you defend yourself using the principles.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Much of what you say is mere theory with out much scientific evidence to back it coupled with alot of opinion.



This is not scientific based study from you or any of us. I can just as easily say all you are saying is nothing more than an opinion as well and that opinion is based on far less experience than mine or Cranes or Brian's or, etc. I would not call it a theory though since what we are talking about has been proven by actually doing it and see the results of it. What you are putting forth however I would call theory

What we are saying is based on history and experience, not scientific study...and the same can be said of your position as well. The fact computers work well is not a good argument for your position



StormShadow said:


> I think I would know whether or not my training partner is my sifu lol. Was your training partner your sifu when you began learning?



Sometimes yes and sometimes no but he was always there to correct if necessary, to physically stop me if necessary, to physically position me in necessary, to stop bad habits before they begin if necessary



StormShadow said:


> In all, I am not going to reiterate with long drawn out paragraphs. You do not believe it works, that's great. I believe it works, that's great.



I'm ok with that, nothing to argue there, and I don't believe it works well nor do I believe it can. It can teach you something, that I do not doubt. However what it teaches you is not going to be at the level of understanding or the quality of those who actually train with their shifu on a regular basis, meaning being in the same room with a shifu on a regular basis, once or more a week.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> This is not scientific based study from you or any of us. I can just as easily say all you are saying is nothing more than an opinion as well and that opinion is based on far less experience than mine or Cranes or Brian's or, etc. I would not call it a theory though since what we are talking about has been proven by actually doing it and see the results of it. What you are putting forth however I would call theory
> 
> What we are saying is based on history and experience, not scientific study...and the same can be said of your position as well. The fact computers work well is not a good argument for your position
> 
> ...



If your receiving personal training from your sifu, face to face, not in a class of 15-20 ppl than nothing will compare to that.  It can be said attending a regular class will not achieve the level or quality as the instances of training just mentioned.  It's a rabbit hole really.  Even at it's base, some wing chun is better than none at all.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> This is not scientific based study from you or any of us. I can just as easily say all you are saying is nothing more than an opinion as well and that opinion is based on far less experience than mine or Cranes or Brian's or, etc. I would not call it a theory though since what we are talking about has been proven by actually doing it and see the results of it. What you are putting forth however I would call theory
> 
> What we are saying is based on history and experience, not scientific study...and the same can be said of your position as well. *The fact computers work well is not a good argument for your position*
> 
> ...



My position wasn't the fact that computers work well.  It was technology can and does enhance our everyday lives without being a hindrance.  Anything and everything can be misused. The fact people use "hacking" as a tool to gain information or personal gain does not prove anything and I fail to see how it is relevant to begin with;  but that point is moot.


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## wtxs (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Technology can and does enhance our everyday lives without being a hindrance.



After all had been said and done :argue: ... no amount of technology can replace or displace the most important element ... the human factor.  Now if you would excuse me, got to get more popcorn. opcorn:


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## mograph (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> My position wasn't the fact that computers work well.  It was technology can and does enhance our everyday lives without being a hindrance.


You're kidding, right? Technology is _never_ a hindrance to our everyday lives?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Even at it's base, some wing chun is better than none at all.



well yes, and at the same time, no.

Do you need to know the entire wing chun curriculum in order to fight or defend yourself?  No, of course not.  So some is better than none.
However, whether you know a little or a lot, it is only valuable if it is well learned, well understood, and well taught.  If not, if the quality is not high, then whether you know a little or a lot is irrelevant.  In fact, it can mislead you and create real problems in your training.  In that case, some is actually not better than none.  It really depends.

That's really what we are getting at: we do not believe that the quality can be high when transmitted thru this format.  Your opinion is otherwise, and that's fine.  But it really is your opinion and I suspect you may not have the experience to know one way or the other.  That's what's dangerous about it.  You may believe with all your being that what you've learned is of high quality, but in fact it very likely is not.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

mograph said:


> You're kidding, right? Technology is _never_ a hindrance to our everyday lives?



 God forbid you need a CAT scan, routine blood test, or have to brake suddenly at a stop light. I'm sure these are all hindrances to your livelihood.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> well yes, and at the same time, no.
> 
> Do you need to know the entire wing chun curriculum in order to fight or defend yourself?  No, of course not.  So some is better than none.
> However, whether you know a little or a lot, it is only valuable if it is well learned, well understood, and well taught.  If not, if the quality is not high, then whether you know a little or a lot is irrelevant.  In fact, it can mislead you and create real problems in your training.  In that case, some is actually not better than none.  It really depends.
> ...



Others may share your opinion as others share my opinion.  That part of it all is fine. You're judging something and someone simply because you have no experience with it, as if you have all-knowing knowledge of the fact.  Just because your beliefs /thought process/ego will not allow you to think/view beyond and/or comprehend it, does not mean it has no validity. Really in fact that's likely an opinion with nothing to stand on but personal beliefs.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Others may share your opinion as others share my opinion. That part of it all is fine. You're judging something and someone simply because you have no experience with it, as if you have all-knowing knowledge of the fact. Just because your beliefs /thought process/ego will not allow you to think/view beyond and/or comprehend it, does not mean it has no validity. Really in fact that's likely an opinion with nothing to stand on but personal beliefs.



no I am not judging you, and nothing about this is pesonal.  This has nothing to do with judment.  I am advising you that the path you are on is likely to lead you to disappointing results, and it may in fact be deceptive and you may not even realize it.  That is simply an issue under debate here.

What you do with that advice is up to you.  You became a major participant in this thread, but you didn't start it.  This is an open discussion that anyone can contribute to, and you can choose to listen and consider what is being said, or reject it.  That's up to you.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> no I am not judging you, and nothing about this is pesonal.  This has nothing to do with judment.  I am advising you that the path you are on is likely to lead you to disappointing results, and it may in fact be deceptive and you may not even realize it.  That is simply an issue under debate here.
> 
> What you do with that advice is up to you.  You became a major participant in this thread, but you didn't start it.  This is an open discussion that anyone can contribute to, and you can choose to listen and consider what is being said, or reject it.  That's up to you.



Appreciate your advice. I've been involved in formal and online.  You've been involved in only formal I take it.  I likely would have a better idea for comparing the two in regards to actually learning and trying to drive home those skills on others.  I'm sure you're a great martial artist with a lot of skill. Just please understand where I am coming from as well.  Nothing has ever been 100% one way and only one workable way in every case.  And I do not dimiss your opinion as learning face to face is of course optimum.  But, as I have seen results and others as well,even compared to a traditional student,  I am unable to also dismiss a responsible distant education as useless with no chance of becoming competent.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Appreciate your advice. I've been involved in formal and online. You've been involved in only formal I take it. I likely would have a better idea for comparing the two in regards to actually learning and trying to drive home those skills on others. I'm sure you're a great martial artist with a lot of skill. Just please understand where I am coming from as well. Nothing has ever been 100% one way and only one workable way in every case. And I do not dimiss your opinion as learning face to face is of course optimum. But, as I have seen results and others as well,even compared to a traditional student, I am unable to also dismiss a responsible distant education as useless with no chance of becoming competent.



alright, well, choose your path and good luck to you.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Thank you and continued success in your training.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 18, 2013)

*The thing is StormShadow* I totally agree with Flying Crane, Xue, etc.  We have all been around the block so to speak.  I actually have experience not only watching videos, making martial arts videos and yes providing DVD's and youtube videos for my students around the world.  Here is the kicker though.  With the videos that I put out there for my students there is no way they could learn what is taught on them well unless they are training with a *real live teacher* who can correct there mistakes or that they have advanced far enough to have a great grasp of the material. (even then they should be training with an instructor to make sure bad habits do not creep in)  This isn't once a week, twice a month or seminars a couple of times a year.  No they need a regular in person instructor who shows them not only the technique but also minute details and variations on it.  Not to mention the applications, two partner drills, etc, etc, etc.  They need someone in person with the right viewing angles that can show them where they are making mistakes.  They need someone in person who can give them depth to their training.  They simply cannot get that only from online video training.  I embrace technology but I am telling you that online video training is simply not as good or even good in general without a qualified teacher to show you what you need to work on.  It is good as adjunct training on top of training with a real life in person instructor!  Just not by itself as the sole means of training.  *If you do that the product in the end is bound to have lots of mistakes, bad habits and mediocre at best martial skill sets.*  So like Flying Crane, Xue and I and others have been saying to you if you learn only by this medium you will probably have a superficial understanding of it and probably it won't be that good.  We can't do anything more than give you advice some of us have a lot of years behind us backing up that advice!  Been around the block and seen a lot!  Just sayin.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Point well taken. Certainly depends on viewing angles, speed of instruction, explanation and overall quality of the teacher on how well the students can use the material that is through recorded or live video. This whole talk of bad habits seems to be a major sticking point. A student can be reviewed live by a sifu, in multiple angles not even typically possible with the naked eye to be corrected if need be.  The only major difference that I and other formal/ distant learning students see is you MUST have a good wing chun training partner. If the two or more are beginners, they should be persistent about the art and trying to be as correct as possible in performing the art. And also, I do not believe if you are engaging the teacher face to face every month constitutes and pure video training.  Especially if it's for multiple day periods over the entire course of a day. As I mentioned, it really depends. Just can't kick all distant learning instruction out and say " ahhh that doesn't work, it's trash" without properly evaluating it with unbiased intent.  It certainly has to be well supported by some form of live contact with the sifu.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> My position wasn't the fact that computers work well. It was technology can and does enhance our everyday lives without being a hindrance. Anything and everything can be misused. The fact people use "hacking" as a tool to gain information or personal gain does not prove anything and I fail to see how it is relevant to begin with; but that point is moot.



I failed to see how it was relevant when you brought it into the discussion and that was the point


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 18, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> God forbid you need a CAT scan, routine blood test, or have to brake suddenly at a stop light. I'm sure these are all hindrances to your livelihood.



So are you are saying that all technology enhances our lives and that you do not see any possibility of a hindrance from technology or are you just picking a choosing a few in an attempt your make your point seem more viable.


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> So are you are saying that all technology enhances our lives and that you do not see any possibility of a hindrance from technology or are you just picking a choosing a few in an attempt your make your point seem more viable.




Take from it what you will (if anything).


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## StormShadow (Jun 18, 2013)

Getting back to the actual question can online learning work.  I say yes with the right sifu, a well supported program directed by the sifu, community support, good use of video, an available sifu that answers questions and there to meet face to face, a program that supports training partners, workshops, bootcamps and training at the actual kwoon if you can make the trip to it.

You and those like you say no, under no circumstances, never in a million years will someone be able to learn.  It is completely and utterly impossible, impractical and illogical to even fathom that someone could.  You will have too many "uncorrectable" habits that your sifu will be unable to see even from multiple angles on video.  Furthermore, even if you are able to meet with your sifu somewhat regularly, your habits will be such that they will not be correctable throughout your entire existence.  You must be in a class at least two days a week to gain knowledge.

Two different points of views. One feels undoubtedly more qualified on the topic through years of training in one setting without having knowledge of being apart or trying such a distant learning program.  The other has tried both and is viewed by outside individuals whom have the art traditionally, that a proper, well supported distance education certainly can work for the serious individual. One has excellent points, few of which can be argued.  The other leans on results and the critiques of those who were once skeptical along with those who've trained for years to witness how it can work first hand.

You may be able to persuade others but not myself.  If I tasted steak, knows what it taste like, you aren't going to persuade me that it taste disgusting.  I would advise others to do the same.  Try it out for yourself and own your own kung fu.  Do not let others own your kung fu for you. Test it out, if it doesn't work for you, quit it and find a jkd or mma gym which are readily more available hence more traditional studying options.  I highly recommend jkd by the way too.


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## Kframe (Jun 18, 2013)

Flying crane and Brian, I have a question for you. Im hoping you can walk me through this.  

Ok, the more I read, the more I agree that online learning is not for primary instruction. Im leaning more to the supplemental..  My question is related to my boxing.  

Back a ways, after I had started boxing, my club changed its hours and I was no longer able to attend. That was when I  enrolled for the year at a MMA club. Now they are good strikers, but didn't give me the depth of boxing that I wanted. I found a website that contained a lot of the various movements, and defenses and combos and what not. www.myboxingcoach.com  is the website. 

It was directly because of that website I learned of the lead hand/rear hand block, and both the inside and out side variation of the palm parry.  I was able to utilize them in our hands only sparing to good success.  All because I learned them from that website.    Was it the website and his excellent videos, my previous experience or both that allowed me to watch him and learn?


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## Cyriacus (Jun 18, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Flying crane and Brian, I have a question for you. Im hoping you can walk me through this.
> 
> Ok, the more I read, the more I agree that online learning is not for primary instruction. Im leaning more to the supplemental..  My question is related to my boxing.
> 
> ...



First, sorry about being neither of the people you actually asked. I just have a contribution 

You can get good information online. Simple stuff is simple to learn (go figure). 

http://www.thehighdefinite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/LNgTU.jpg
(Im not sure im allowed to use a term on the forum thats at the bottom of it. Its a great example though)

Theres a difference between learning a few simple things online, augmenting your training online, and trying to actually learn from scratch.
In your case, you were already boxing. The site just gave you something to play with in training, which you ultimately taught yourself based on the site giving you the idea. Self directed learning works sometimes.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 19, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Flying crane and Brian, I have a question for you. Im hoping you can walk me through this.
> 
> Ok, the more I read, the more I agree that online learning is not for primary instruction. Im leaning more to the supplemental..  My question is related to my boxing.
> 
> ...



*I would venture to say* that based off your previous training and skill sets it was natural for you to pick up a few things from that website. (particularly if your previous training and exposure was really good)  Hopefully you did not ingrain any bad habits.  That would be a problem for your future training. (not that you did of course)  Yet people ingrain bad habits all the time and they rarely pick them up on their own.  Personally it is very easy for me to watch a video and duplicate what they are doing. (really easy)  If I did that however I would have no depth to the training and no real abilities in that system.  I do not have that problem because I actually learn from real in people, instructors who have corrected my mistakes over and over again and shown me the variations and brought depth to the training.  Imagine Kframe if you only went to that website  ( wwww.myboxingcoach.com ) to learn as your principle point of learning boxing.  Would you want to step into the ring with a trained boxer from a good club.  I doubt it!  Would you be a good boxer.  Probably not unless you were just a beast with all kinds of magnificent attributes!   Xue, myself or Flying Crane are not saying that videos are bad or even that internet online training is bad.  What we are saying however is that if that is your only source of training it is not very good.  Actually it is poor!  Instead, you need a real live in person instructor and then can utilize videos as a supplement for your training.  That actually is really, really good.  I watch videos, read books all the time on the Martial Sciences.  That has always been some thing that has inspired me to keep training!  Hope that helps!


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## mook jong man (Jun 19, 2013)

Having been at this Wing Chun instructing gig for quite a few years now , one thing that never ceases to amaze me is the ability people have to get something totally wrong even when I have demonstrated the application right in front of them multiple times and physically moved their arms through the whole technique.

I imagine this issue would become even more amplified if they had to learn from video or the computer.

Students are like learner drivers going down a highway and they keep wandering off the road , they need to have the driving instructor in the front seat with them to keep grabbing the wheel to make sure they stay in the lane and  don't drive into a ditch.

You could certainly learn a superficial version of Wing Chun from video , you could copy the structures of Tan , Fook and Bong Sau but they would have no substance to them , they would be an empty shell.

A very important component of Wing Chun techniques is the concept of "Forward Force" without this important element , Wing Chun techniques will not work optimally or indeed not at all.

"Forward Force" cannot be seen , it can only be felt.
How do you know what "Forward Force" feels like ? if you have never felt it before from someone who knows what they are doing.
This "Forward Force" / "Springy Force" also needs constant fine tuning from a qualified instructor , attempting to push too hard results in tension and the use of brute strength , not enough force results in angles collapsing.

It is a very fine line and needs to be constantly monitored with hands on instruction by an experienced teacher.
So unless they can find some way for Sony Playstations  and Nintendo Wii to simulate "Forward Force" that means you are stuck learning Wing Chun in person from cranky old bastards like me.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 19, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Getting back to the actual question can online learning work. I say yes with the right sifu, a well supported program directed by the sifu, community support, good use of video, an available sifu that answers questions and there to meet face to face, a program that supports training partners, workshops, bootcamps and training at the actual kwoon if you can make the trip to it.
> 
> You and those like you say no, under no circumstances, never in a million years will someone be able to learn. It is completely and utterly impossible, impractical and illogical to even fathom that someone could. You will have too many "uncorrectable" habits that your sifu will be unable to see even from multiple angles on video. Furthermore, even if you are able to meet with your sifu somewhat regularly, your habits will be such that they will not be correctable throughout your entire existence. You must be in a class at least two days a week to gain knowledge.
> 
> ...



Interesting, you like to embellish and omit things to try and make a case...don't you

First show me where I (or any of us) said all of this



> You and those like you say no, under no circumstances, never in a million years will someone be able to learn. It is completely and utterly impossible, impractical and illogical to even fathom that someone could. You will have too many "uncorrectable" habits that your sifu will be unable to see even from multiple angles on video. Furthermore, even if you are able to meet with your sifu somewhat regularly, your habits will be such that they will not be correctable throughout your entire existence. You must be in a class at least two days a week to gain knowledge.



Now as to this bit



> The other has tried both and is viewed by outside individuals whom have the art traditionally, that a proper, well supported distance education certainly can work for the serious individual.



You seem to have missed Brian's previous post.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *The thing is StormShadow* I totally agree with Flying Crane, Xue, etc. We have all been around the block so to speak. I actually have experience not only watching videos, making martial arts videos and yes providing DVD's and youtube videos for my students around the world. Here is the kicker though. With the videos that I put out there for my students there is no way they could learn what is taught on them well unless they are training with a *real live teacher* who can correct there mistakes or that they have advanced far enough to have a great grasp of the material. (even then they should be training with an instructor to make sure bad habits do not creep in) This isn't once a week, twice a month or seminars a couple of times a year. No they need a regular in person instructor who shows them not only the technique but also minute details and variations on it. Not to mention the applications, two partner drills, etc, etc, etc. They need someone in person with the right viewing angles that can show them where they are making mistakes. They need someone in person who can give them depth to their training. They simply cannot get that only from online video training. I embrace technology but I am telling you that online video training is simply not as good or even good in general without a qualified teacher to show you what you need to work on. It is good as adjunct training on top of training with a real life in person instructor! Just not by itself as the sole means of training. *If you do that the product in the end is bound to have lots of mistakes, bad habits and mediocre at best martial skill sets.* So like Flying Crane, Xue and I and others have been saying to you if you learn only by this medium you will probably have a superficial understanding of it and probably it won't be that good. We can't do anything more than give you advice some of us have a lot of years behind us backing up that advice! Been around the block and seen a lot! Just sayin.



Frankly what you do is your business and I tend to be of the belief that if one truely beleives in what they are doing and is comfortable with it that the views and opions of others really don't matter much nor would one be arguing for or against it, they would just train. 

I only have two real issues with this type of training; one is later, should you feel you have "mastered" all you need by video that you go off and train others. That is likely my biggest issue here because it does go to weakening (watering down) the art and propegates sub-standard martial arts and bills it as the real deal.

The other is with the person who it the "teacher" of this distance learning/online program. It generally is being done for only one reason...money... not the art, not for the students but simply for cash. 

Do what you will, I don't agree and feel you are very wrong, but that should not matter to you at all really


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## StormShadow (Jun 19, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> *Interesting, you like to embellish and omit things to try and make a case...don't you*
> 
> First show me where I (or any of us) said all of this
> 
> ...




Embellish??? Search the topic, that is what was basically said.  I believe I was being very accurate in those statements.  And your right, I respect most opinions represented here if they were represented in a correct manner.  Others I've disregarded honestly as I did not see much value in what was stated.  But yes people should pursue what they believe in and do so whole-heartedly.

Secondly, don't fret, my kung fu will be tested on others (live face to face as it is now), especially those whom studied traditionally, before I would decide to teach anyone and frankly I doubt I will have the time to train anyone except for my children.  If what I learned and "mastered" does not fly then no one gets taught and back to the drawing board.  Again, likely will not teach anyone outside of my own regardless.  And even so, my children will learn more than one art.

Well, regarding the cash issue, did you train traditionally for free?  That argument doesn't hold much weight really.  I converse with my sifu and I can only speak for my program.  It is not for the money. All distant students are invited and called to train in person as well.  We even have use of the kwoon off regular face to face training times if we need it. Of course with no additional fees.  So you tell me.

Personally, you have offered the least insight in these discussions and proved nothing but reinate points already made.  You have made one successful point though, people will do what they believe and the concerns of others really does not matter.  I will say, I do value how you hold wing chun in very high regard and care about the quality being taught.  Though I am trying to discern whether you truly care or is it for some self-serving aspect that you do.

BTW, if you or anyone else truly, truly, feels strongly about removing online instruction, I advise you or anyone else to open up your own kwoon and begin spreading the art we all love. If you believe distant education is a "problem", well become part of the solution.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 19, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Embellish??? Search the topic, that is what was basically said. I believe I was being very accurate in those statements. And your right, I respect most opinions represented here if they were represented in a correct manner. Others I've disregarded honestly as I did not see much value in what was stated. But yes people should pursue what they believe in and do so whole-heartedly.



Nope, they are not all there, and to say what was "basically said is not exactly what was said and you were not being accurate at all...please feel free search the thread and you will see many are not there. 



StormShadow said:


> .
> 
> Well, regarding the cash issue, did you train traditionally for free? That argument doesn't hold much weight really. I converse with my sifu and I can only speak for my program. It is not for the money. All distant students are invited and called to train in person as well. We even have use of the kwoon off regular face to face training times if we need it. Of course with no additional fees. So you tell me.



Actually many times I did not pay anything. My Sanda Sifu never charged and my taiji sifu. although he does charge for an hour class I tend to be there training 2 to 3 hours and my first sifu. although he would not do this now, did many times, not charge me for training. But even without that the argument is valid since those that charged were there, in the room and very interested in teaching their art properly. They were not teaching s substandard art online or via distance learning or video. 



StormShadow said:


> .
> Personally, you have offered the least insight in these discussions and proved nothing but reinate points already made. You have made one successful point though, people will do what they believe and the concerns of others really does not matter. I will say, I do value how you hold wing chun in very high regard and care about the quality being taught. Though I am trying to discern whether you truly care or is it for some self-serving aspect that you do.
> .



ahh yet another insult thrown my way from you...I preferred kid because it made me feel young again...... but if you wish to infer I am irrelevant.....since I did not mind being told I had "Poor Vision".....again...I'm ok with that.... because I am not so sure the others in this thread would agree with your assessment


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## StormShadow (Jun 19, 2013)

ok.. Do you feel better about yourself now?  Please continue your block quotations to address the remaining paragraphs I wrote. You're very entertaining.


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## StormShadow (Jun 19, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Nope, they are not all there, and to say what was "basically said is not exactly what was said and you were not being accurate at all...please feel free search the thread and you will see many are not there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually wasn't intended as an insult.  Just my view and opinion.  Nothing more.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 19, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Flying crane and Brian, I have a question for you. Im hoping you can walk me through this.
> 
> Ok, the more I read, the more I agree that online learning is not for primary instruction. Im leaning more to the supplemental.. My question is related to my boxing.
> 
> ...



I think you've gotten some good answers so far, I'll just add a thought.  This has kinda been covered, maybe I'm saying the same thing in a little different way.  If you already have some solid training in a particular system, then you can pick up some things via video.  Picking up things like combinations is easy, these are actually pretty superficial aspects of the fighting system.  Anybody can learn a combo from video and figure out how to use it effectively if you already have a solid grounding in the method.

What cannot be taught via video or video conferenceing is the deeper aspects that make the system as a whole function.  These are the principles upon which the system is built and that powers it all.  Different systems have a different approach when it comes to things like how to root properly, how power is generated in a strike, etc.  Those are subtle things that really need to be taught in a face-to-face, repeated environment.  Once you understand those issues and have some skill with them, then you can learn any combo from anywhere, and still apply those principles to that combo.  But the combo itself is superficial, it's not deep, it's not difficult.  It's the principles that are the most important, that gives you the tools to do anything you want with it.

So I'd say it was the fact that you had some serious boxing training that enabled you to pick up a combo and use it effectively, in the context of boxing.

Again, the issue is using video or video conferencing or distance learning as the only, or the primary, method of instruction.  As a supplement, I think we generally agree that it's fine as long as the supplemental material is well made and intelligently used.  But as a primary or only method of transmission it just falls really short.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 19, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> You will have too many "uncorrectable" habits that your sifu will be unable to see even from multiple angles on video.



if your sifu is worth his salt, he will be able to see the errors.  

In many cases the student will be unable to assimilate the corrections thru the video medium.  The corrections need to happen over and over, often the correction itself needs to be hands-on, meaning the sifu needs to physically move you into the correct posture or thru the correct movement pattern, and do it again and again, before you understand the correction.  You as a student need to be in a position where you see it done over and over again.  That's what requires face-to-face more frequently than once a month or at a bootcamp every six months.  You will get the correction at the boot camp, you will THINK you have made the appropriate adjustment, and yet you are actually still wrong but you won't get another chance to get corrected for another month or six months or whatever.  Explaining the correction thru video is unlikely to convey the true message that physically moving the student can do.  Ya gotta feel it, and feel it over and over.  



> Furthermore, even if you are able to meet with your sifu somewhat regularly, your habits will be such that they will not be correctable throughout your entire existence. You must be in a class at least two days a week to gain knowledge.



again, it's the quality of the corrections, actually feeling it when sifu moves you into position or physically puts pressure on you.  



> The other has tried both and is viewed by outside individuals whom have the art traditionally, that a proper, well supported distance education certainly can work for the serious individual.



would you share with us the extent of your training experiences?  For how long did you train in a traditional setting, in what method(s)?  For how long have you pursued the distance program?


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## wtxs (Jun 19, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> BTW, if you or anyone else truly, truly, feels strongly about removing online instruction, I advise you or anyone else to open up your own kwoon and begin spreading *the art we all love*. If you believe distant education is a "problem", well become part of the solution.



Because we do love our WC, that's why we stand by our collective assessment of "on line" training can not replace the human element required.  It is our responsibility to spread the the highest quality WC possible ... for free or fee. 



StormShadow said:


> ok.. Do you feel better about yourself now?  Please continue your block quotations to address the remaining paragraphs I wrote. You're very entertaining.



We do respect your take on the alternate training process, and you should do the same with ours.  continuation with all this arguments are useless and really really really getting boring. :soapbox::deadhorse

If you think Xue Sheng is entertaining, go back and look for an ex member name Coffeeroc, unless you be him in disguise.


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## StormShadow (Jun 19, 2013)

wtxs said:


> *Because we do love our WC, that's why we stand by our collective assessment of "on line" training can not replace the human element required.  It is our responsibility to spread the the highest quality WC possible ... for free or fee. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ok.. where do you teach?

Definitely agree.

Seriously doubt it. But hey you never know


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## StormShadow (Jun 19, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> if your sifu is worth his salt, he will be able to see the errors.
> 
> In many cases the student will be unable to assimilate the corrections thru the video medium.  The corrections need to happen over and over, often the correction itself needs to be hands-on, meaning the sifu needs to physically move you into the correct posture or thru the correct movement pattern, and do it again and again, before you understand the correction.  You as a student need to be in a position where you see it done over and over again.  That's what requires face-to-face more frequently than once a month or at a bootcamp every six months.  You will get the correction at the boot camp, you will THINK you have made the appropriate adjustment, and yet you are actually still wrong but you won't get another chance to get corrected for another month or six months or whatever.  Explaining the correction thru video is unlikely to convey the true message that physically moving the student can do.  Ya gotta feel it, and feel it over and over.
> 
> ...




Certainly 2.5 years of shotokan karate as a youngster.

2 years of boxing training in the gym as a teen

3 years of jkd training

And now about 4.5 months of wing chun training... via online and live.

Out of many of the post, you have made the most sense and most of your points I actually agree with.  Expect for not be able to achieve success.  You can replicate the kwoon outside of the kwoon.  You may have to work harder to seek experienced training partners and visiting the actually Sifu more but it can be done.  Now, you will not become the next yip man or leung bik but you can obtain decent skill with the proper corrections and overseeing of your growth by a dedicated sifu.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 19, 2013)

For the sake of discussion, I'll describe my own experiences with video instruction and distance learning situations.  Granted, what Stormshadow is describing does sound like there is at least an effort to have a more interactive distance program that what I experienced, but it was the late 1980s and early 1990s when I was doing this stuff and the internet wasn't much to speak of yet so a lot of those options simply didn't exist.

When I was in college, I stumbled into Capoeira and was absolutely captivated.  I already had a martial arts background, I had earned my Shodan in Tracy kenpo.  I was taking extra summer courses at the University of Wisconsin in Madison, and they have a capoeira club there.  That's where I discovered it, I had never seen it before.  I was enrolled at a small college in Minnesota for the regular school year, so my instruction in capoeira was limited to that summer session.  One of the guys made a video for me, he demonstrated a few movements and techniques, it was designed to give me some ideas to work on later.  When I was back at school during the rest of the year, I made a handful of trips back to Madison for some workshops when they would host a visiting instructor.  The following summer I was back in Madison and continued to train with them.  When I was away from Madison, I simply did the best I could with what I had learned.  I practiced pretty hard, but I knew I didn't understand it very well.  Finally, after graduation I was able to attend the club in Madison on a more regular basis for probably the better part of a year before I decided to move to San Francisco because at that time most of the best Capoeira teachers in the US were in that area.  It was a good move, I found a good instructor and trained like a maniac.  I finally progressed and got the quality of instruction that I knew I needed.  The Madison club had a lot of heart and had some good Capoeira players, but honestly they were at a lower/mid level themselves and the quality of the training I was getting, while good, was limited.

Getting that instruction in San Francisco made all the difference in the world.  I was stuck at a lower level of development and there was simply no way that I could progress beyond that until I found a good teacher and joined a solid school and got that instruction on a very regular basis.

There were times when my classmates and I would watch capoeira videos, the roda where the "games" are played, and yes, we could learn something from them.  We would see someone pull off an interesting movement in the game and that could inspire us and give us ideas.  But we weren't learning capoeira from it.  We already understood capoeira and we were training with our teacher.  That gave us the background to be able to see a combination and recognize how we might integrate it into what we do as well.  Without the solid capoeira training that we already had, we would never have been able to do that.  This is in line with my comments to Kframe above, in learning a bit of boxing from online to add to the boxing background that he already had.

Aside from this, I also experimented with some video tapes, I tried to learn some Chinese forms in that way.  I had been a kenpo guy, and we in our school were kinda intrigued by the Chinese stuff.  There was some precidence to it, Tracy Kenpo has adopted some Chinese forms into their curriculum so in that spirit we kinda saw it as maybe an OK thing to do.  In hindsight I am not a fan of how the Tracy's adopted that material, but that's a different issue.  So my instructors had gotten some instructional videos of Chinese forms from the Green Dragon studios in Stowe, Ohio.  I experimented with a couple of these, I was able to mimic the forms and whatnot, but in my heart I knew I was lying to myself.  I knew that I didn't really understand what I was doing.  I couldn't articulate it at the time but in hindsight I realized that there were deeper things in the CHinese arts that would make the forms make more sense, but that was what we were missing and we simply had no idea what it was.  We were just doing the forms, mimicing the movement, without really understanding what was underneath it all and what was driving it.  I tried to do this on a couple of occasions over those years and finally just dumped all of it.  I knew in my heart that it was fraudulent and had little value so I just decided to be honest with myself and left it behind.

So anyway, yes in my way I have experimented with the concept as well and whatever I may have gained from the process was far outweighed by what was missing.  Probably the most valuable lesson I learned was how much you really really do need a good instructor, and you need to have a consistent training schedule with him/her or else you just cannot learn this stuff the way it needs to be done.


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## mook jong man (Jun 19, 2013)

wtxs said:


> Because we do love our WC, that's why we stand by our collective assessment of "on line" training can not replace the human element required.  It is our responsibility to spread the the highest quality WC possible ... for free or fee.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Coffeerox , I remember him , that guy was a scream.
Also don't forget that other dude from Pakistan I think it was , who was asking for critique on his videos all the time and he fabricated some ******** story about being assaulted.
I can't remember his name at the moment.

But yeah those guys were good value.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 19, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Certainly 2.5 years of shotokan karate as a youngster.
> 
> 2 years of boxing training in the gym as a teen
> 
> ...



How young were you in Shotokan?  I began my martial arts training at age 13, in kenpo, in 1984.  Well, actually I had a bare handful of lessons in Tae Kwon Do at a younger age, but I can't really count that.  I earned my Shodan at age 16.  In hindsite I recognize that at that age, while I had heart and trained pretty hard, I think my understanding was not that deep, despite the rank I earned.  So much so that starting in 2006 I completely retrained back to Shodan in Tracy kenpo under a new teacher.

I say this because I know that at an early age the quality of the understanding simply is not that great.  A child's mind just doesn't grasp the deeper issues very well, even tho they may be able to do the physical movement fairly well.  

So you are listing, as your training in a traditional environment, 2.5 years, 2 years, and 3 years.  And much of that was at a young age.  Honestly, I think it is very possible that you hadn't gained enough experience yet to begin to understand the deeper issues in the training.  It was probably still at a superficial mimickry stage.  When I was young, I know that's all that I understood about it.  And it probably takes the first three years or even more, with an adult's mind, before you start to clue into the fact that there are much deeper issues that can vastly improve your training, once you understand them.  You've switched paths three times there, just when you might have been getting close to making some real progress.

What I'm saying is, I think your traditional training was probably not that deep or significant yet, it's very possible that you just don't understand what you are missing.


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## StormShadow (Jun 19, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> How young were you in Shotokan?  I began my martial arts training at age 13, in kenpo, in 1984.  Well, actually I had a bare handful of lessons in Tae Kwon Do at a younger age, but I can't really count that.  I earned my Shodan at age 16.  In hindsite I recognize that at that age, while I had heart and trained pretty hard, I think my understanding was not that deep, despite the rank I earned.  So much so that starting in 2006 I completely retrained back to Shodan in Tracy kenpo under a new teacher.
> 
> I say this because I know that at an early age the quality of the understanding simply is not that great.  A child's mind just doesn't grasp the deeper issues very well, even tho they may be able to do the physical movement fairly well.
> 
> ...


 

ok


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## StormShadow (Jun 19, 2013)

Yea in shotokan, I was like 11. Boxing well into solid teenage years.  Jkd was started in my college yrs.  I don't believe it takes a genius to understand what you need in your training *"for you"*. In my experiences, some ppl are more gifted, more in tune, listen better, grasp concepts better than others.  Some ppl it doesn't take as much to learn as others.  I have always been a believer it really depends on the individual.  The same learning method may not be the best case for each person.  Some ppl my not thrive in a class setting at all.  Some ppl require a class setting to learn else they have issues.  Some people have real trouble connecting concepts if it's not performed right in front of their eyes.  To each it's own.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 19, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> I don't believe it takes a genius to understand what you need in your training *"for you"*.



well, particularly in the early years of training the student often does not know what he needs.  Often what he THINKS he needs is the opposite of what he really needs, and that's where a good instructor comes in.



> In my experiences, some ppl are more gifted, more in tune, listen better, grasp concepts better than others. Some ppl it doesn't take as much to learn as others.



I don't disagree with this.  But in order to thrive, even a gifted individual needs quality instruction.


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## StormShadow (Jun 19, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> well, particularly in the early years of training the student often does not know what he needs.  Often what he THINKS he needs is the opposite of what he really needs, and that's where a good instructor comes in.
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't disagree with this.  But in order to thrive, even a gifted individual needs quality instruction*.



I don't disagree with that.


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## wtxs (Jun 19, 2013)

I feel the love comin' on man, what say you we move on to some thing more productive and heated discussions.:drinky:


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## Kframe (Jun 19, 2013)

To everyone who replied to me. Brian and Flying crane and Cyracius, thank you.  Brian your correct, despite the fact that the video instruction on that website Is top notch, I would not want to only learn my boxing from it. My boxing coach was able to pick up things I was doing. Don't drop your hands, stop leaning into the punch's,  don't hold your lead hand so far out, bring your rear up to you chin, ect...   

I think I can say im firmly in the supplementation camp now instead of the primary form of learning camp.   Case in point. Those blocks on www.myboxingcoach.com  a lot of them work optimally with a evasive movment before their application.  Such as the out side parry. Slip the jab, then as your returning to the center, they will launch their cross, that's the time to use the outside parry. As your coming back from the slip.. You cant get that from a video..


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 20, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> ok.. Do you feel better about yourself now? Please continue your block quotations to address the remaining paragraphs I wrote. You're very entertaining.



:hmm: and the next post says you did not intend to insault....interesting.... 

Actually I feel no different and block quotes tends to be the way many respond here, it tends to cut down on the confusion

And those were responses to your post, if you had read them you would see they were specific responses to the things you had said in some cases defenses of my position the first one ws to your claim that you were using "basic" statements of others that were "very accurate" when in fact they are not and if you go back through the posts anyone can see that. Therefore they are embellished. The second was to the cash issue and your statement that the "argument doesn't hold much weight really" I gave you a list of people I have trained with (right there with them not online) who charge nothing or very little, and I did omit one that was a Wing Chun sifu. Therefore your defense of the position did not work

Since you have no response other than another not so veiled insult then I guess your defense of your position, at least form the accuracy of your statements and the cash issue is not so much of a defense after all

As for the third block quote, it was just to point out your propensity for insulting people when you have no way to defend your position

I said it a while back and I should have stuck to my post, I will waste no more time here on you or your post.

Enjoy your online training


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## StormShadow (Jun 20, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> :hmm: and the next post says you did not intend to insault....interesting....
> 
> Actually I feel no different and block quotes tends to be the way many respond here, it tends to cut down on the confusion
> 
> ...




Thank you... Happy Training.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2013)

Kframe said:


> My boxing coach was able to pick up things I was doing. Don't drop your hands, stop leaning into the punch's, don't hold your lead hand so far out, bring your rear up to you chin, ect...



Bingo.  That's exactly the kind of thing you need a good instructor to do, to catch those errors as you are making them, not just in a review once a month or once every six months.  I can practically guarantee that you will make the very same mistakes again the very next day.  Those are the kinds of errors that people make without even realizing them.  That's why the corrections need to be made over and over, until the student really becomes consistent and starts to get it right without being corrected.  That takes time and repetition and will not happen on one's own.


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## mograph (Jun 20, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> God forbid you need a CAT scan, routine blood test, or have to brake suddenly at a stop light. I'm sure these are all hindrances to your livelihood.


Again with the straw man. I'm saying that technology_ can be_ a hindrance, not that it is _always_ a hindrance. You said it is _not_ a hindrance to our everyday lives ("It was technology can and does enhance our everyday lives without being a hindrance."), and I disagree with that.

I no longer object to your choice of training; that is up to you. However, there are limits to the usefulness of some technologies. In time, as you grow older, you may begin to see them. Good luck with your training.


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## strike101 (Nov 11, 2013)

Interesting thread.

There's another online learning site www.wingchunonline.net run by my sifu (I started recently), Colin Ward. It's ip chun lineage if thats what you're after. 
I find him to be a very good teacher and explains concepts and principles thoroughly and in a way that makes perfect sense.

In regards to learning online obviously for a lot of drills and chi sao you need a partner. Also I think using an online portal such as this is a good compliment to taking lessons in person. I imagine it's probably perfect for someone who doesn't have the time to attend a class often but really wants to learn wing chun. They could then learn basic principles with online videos and then be corrected if anything is wrong when they attend a lesson. Just my 2 cents


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