# What are the most universal effective takedowns?



## TMA17

My mind was racing thinking about how many different takedowns there are in Judo.  I love watching Judo videos.  But the reality is, as I see it, you don't need to know that many.  Piggybacking off the other post recently about practing one technique for a year or so, vs learning numerious techniques, what takedowns work against almost any opponent regardless of size?  

Let me use a body type example:  A short muscular build with a low center of gravity.  If you had to take someone built like that to the ground, what would be your go to move?  Single or double leg?  What particular judo takedown?  Assume the opponent is shorter than you. 

For Judo I was thinking the one (can't remember the name) where you move in fast, put your right foot in between his legs, move your foot in a circular motion (to the right) and keep moving forward to knock him down.


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## Gerry Seymour

This gets back to something discussed in another thread, right now. In my opinion, the only reason to study a wide range of takedowns is to better understand the underlying principles that tie them together, so you can apply those principles more broadly, expanding the range of application for the few most useful takedowns.

Of course, in a grappling competition, there's also the advantage of having a wide range of tools in your toolbox, so it's harder for your opponent to guess what's coming.

So, what I consider the most useful: 

single-leg (probably throw in double-leg, but I've never trained that specifically, and just see it as an extension of single-leg)
seoi nage and its variants (which to me includes shoulder throws and body-drop throws, including NGA's Mugger's Throw)
hip throw (a wide range of things fit this name)
off-balancing throws (this would include things like the Russian wrist snap, NGA's Spin-Around and 2-on-1, and probably Aikido's tenchi nage)
leg sweeps (to me, they're mostly variations of each other)
Now, none of those are universal - all are situational. Some situations are created by rules, others by intent, others by body type, etc. if I were sticking to the most universal, I'd keep the first and last categories on that list. If I had to go for an absolute, I'd just keep the first. But that'd be a very limited repertoire.


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## TMA17

Good stuff gpseymour.

I saw this and it looked pretty effective.


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## Gerry Seymour

TMA17 said:


> Good stuff gpseymour.
> 
> I saw this and it looked pretty effective.


I like that collar drag takedown - uses similar principles to drop seoi nage. The other I like, technically, but don't feel much confidence in for some reason. I've never really analyzed why I don't see it as a reliable tool outside the BJJ context (where I accept that instructor's endorsement).


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## Christopher Adamchek

Great topic
So for my self defense classes we focus on effective, naturalish, throws that dont require two hand grasping points.  Including throws such as:

1. Reaps - focusing on clavicle push set up and adaptive variations such as karate's folding screen throw that basically is pushing the chin back as you reap.
2. Hip throws - focusing on a side hip rolling throw (more just offsetting the opponent) but mostly the shoulder wheel where one arm is pushing on their head during the entire throw.
3. Head pulls - pulling or twisting on the head/ears/nose/chin till they eventually go down, very effective from clinching
4. Double leg - cause i typically see people go for it without training so id like to see people atleast do it right
5. Levering throws - such as the breath throw (kokyu nage)

They work great for quickly getting an inexperienced person to be able to successfully throw someone


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## Buka

They're all good if you can work them well. To me, number 3 of Christopher's post above, or an old fashion American football tackle.


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## Tony Dismukes

TMA17 said:


> For Judo I was thinking the one (can't remember the name) where you move in fast, put your right foot in between his legs, move your foot in a circular motion (to the right) and keep moving forward to knock him down.


Sounds like O Uchi Gari, which I've had some success with.


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## TMA17

Tony Dismukes said:


> Sounds like O Uchi Gari, which I've had some success with.




That's the one Tony, thanks!


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## JR 137

TMA17 said:


> My mind was racing thinking about how many different takedowns there are in Judo.  I love watching Judo videos.  But the reality is, as I see it, you don't need to know that many.  Piggybacking off the other post recently about practing one technique for a year or so, vs learning numerious techniques, what takedowns work against almost any opponent regardless of size?
> .


I’m answering this as a wrestler, but I’m pretty confident that the same thing applies in Judo...

You need to know a lot of throws, even though you may only end up using a handful. The more throws you know, the more you know how to avoid/counter. If you don’t know the lateral throw, you’ll push back when your opponent pushes into you. Once you push back just enough, he’ll use your push to help him throw you. Knowing that throw, even if you never use it keeps you from setting yourself up for it. Same for practically any other throw.

The more throws you know, the more you realize how important it is to keep a solid stance. Arms in close enough, knees bent enough, not leaning too far forward or backward. Just maintaining that will negate most throws. Why? They won’t be able to use your arms against you, your weight against you, etc. They’ll have to muscle every throw. 

When you see judoka constantly using the same throws over and over again, it’s because the opponents are negating the other throws. It’s beca they’re setting the opponent up for that throw by getting him to adjust/counter different throws. Keep the opponent moving and they’ll break their stance, this opening them up for the particular throw they’re actually looking for. If all the did was go for that one throw every time without setting it up properly, it would never work on an opponent who’s got some experience. 

It’s like watching boxers constantly knocking out people with a left hook. If all they knew was that left hook and didn’t throw anything else, it would never land. Or at least never land cleanly enough to KO beyond a once in a blue moon lucky punch.


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## TMA17

Great points JR.  Do you think Judo throws though are from too high of a stance?  I've read that when faced against a wrestler, which keep a lower stance, it's harder to pull off many Judo throws.


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## Gerry Seymour

TMA17 said:


> Great points JR.  Do you think Judo throws though are from too high of a stance?  I've read that when faced against a wrestler, which keep a lower stance, it's harder to pull off many Judo throws.


Others here have far more Judo experience than me, but here’s my take. Most Judo techniques won’t directly apply against that low wrestling stance. The principles will still apply, though, so a Judoka should be able to manage some takedowns. The bigger problem is what JR is getting at: the Judoka won’t have the counters for several key wrestling takedowns.


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## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> Others here have far more Judo experience than me, but here’s my take. Most Judo techniques won’t directly apply against that low wrestling stance. The principles will still apply, though, so a Judoka should be able to manage some takedowns. The bigger problem is what JR is getting at: the Judoka won’t have the counters for several key wrestling takedowns.


That’ll also work the other way too. If I as a wrestler don’t know what a judoka is looking for, he’ll set me up easily. No different than if I don’t know what a BJJer is looking for, I could leave an arm somewhere where he wants it for an arm bar.


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## JR 137

TMA17 said:


> Great points JR.  Do you think Judo throws though are from too high of a stance?  I've read that when faced against a wrestler, which keep a lower stance, it's harder to pull off many Judo throws.


I think on average judoka are probably standing a bit higher, but not to the point they can’t adjust. I have practically zero Judo experience. But watching them, the principles are practically the same - off balance them, leverage, push/pull, etc. One major difference that stands out to me is the use of the thrower’s leg in a lot of throws in Judo. It looks like it adds a bit of extra I don’t know... oomph... to their throws. A competent judoka shouldn’t have much problem adjusting to a wrestler and vice versa.


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## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> That’ll also work the other way too. If I as a wrestler don’t know what a judoka is looking for, he’ll set me up easily. No different than if I don’t know what a BJJer is looking for, I could leave an arm somewhere where he wants it for an arm bar.


In this case, I think the advantage of surprise goes to the wrestler. The stance frustrates a lot of standard Judo strategy. My personal take is that Wrestling focuses more on avoiding the takedown, and Judo focuses more on getting the takedown. That latter focus leaves more openings, somewhat by design.


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## TMA17

Makes sense.  I can't remember where I read it, but it was talking about how most Judokas stand in a more upright stance.  So far in my experience in Judo this is what we do.  That upright stance is a problem for a wrestler who stands low, but as JR pointed out, the judoka could also set up the wrestler if he's good enough.  I'm making a transition soon to a BJJ school 5 minutes away.  The guy studied under Gracie.  They teach more basic takedowns with lower stances.


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## TMA17

Ok here is where I saw it. 

Judo for BJJ - Grapplearts


Learn to deal with stances that are overly defensive.  Most BJJ matches will have both competitors in a bent over defensive posture that would be a defensive penalty in judo. Secondly, double leg takedowns are popular in BJJ but prohibited in the current judo rules, so the BJJ player must use a lower stance to defend against that attack. Judoka in contrast use a very strong upright stance.

"I asked World Champion Xande Ribeiro at a seminar how he felt training in judo improved his BJJ. Instead of naming specific techniques like I assumed, he said that the attributes of explosiveness, gripping and balance/ momentum were the most important things that carried over for him."


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## TMA17




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## Gerry Seymour

I think a lot of this gets back to context. Unless you're facing a BJJ player or wrestler, you might never see someone in that low stance, so Judo has less problem in self-defense in general than when facing BJJ or wrestling.


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## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> In this case, I think the advantage of surprise goes to the wrestler. The stance frustrates a lot of standard Judo strategy. My personal take is that Wrestling focuses more on avoiding the takedown, and Judo focuses more on getting the takedown. That latter focus leaves more openings, somewhat by design.


I don’t think it’s that at all. A wrestler will try to take you down without being taken down first. Judo isn’t any different as far as I know.

But the basic stance...

Wrestlers will take you down by either throwing you or single/double leg takedown. They’re attacking and defending the legs. If a wrestler stands too high, single/double leg takedown time. Stands too low, pull them down with a grab to the back of the neck.

When we’re talking about wrestlers getting low in their stance, we’re thinking folkstyle (collegiate/scholastic) and freestyle. Watch Greco-Roman wrestling; they’ll typically stand as high as judoka. Why? They’re not allowed to attack the legs in Greco. Therefore it’s all throws.

Judo doesn’t allow leg takedowns anymore, and to be honest, I don’t think it was an often used thing anyway. Maybe just the level I’ve seen though. I worked the Empire State Games for several years. It was basically an NYS Olympics. Working wrestling most years, Judo was either on the other side of the arena or started before or after wrestling. I always hung around to watch it and help out. According to a lot of sources, the Empire State Games was a very high level Judo competition. Basically a step below international level competition. I didn’t see any leg takedowns. The biggest difference I saw was the pace. Wrestling was high pressure and make things happen, Judo was was more stand your ground and counter. 

Edit: Wrestling was predominantly college guys. Judoka were typically a few years older on average. Think early 20s guys vs mid-late 20s guys.


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## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> I don’t think it’s that at all. A wrestler will try to take you down without being taken down first. Judo isn’t any different as far as I know.


I was speaking philosophically. It accounts for the difference in stance, and the rules in Judo that penalize too much defense. You are correct they're basically approaching the same job, but with a slight difference in priority.



> But the basic stance...
> 
> Wrestlers will take you down by either throwing you or single/double leg takedown. They’re attacking and defending the legs. If a wrestler stands too high, single/double leg takedown time. Stands too low, pull them down with a grab to the back of the neck.
> 
> When we’re talking about wrestlers getting low in their stance, we’re thinking folkstyle (collegiate/scholastic) and freestyle. Watch Greco-Roman wrestling; they’ll typically stand as high as judoka. Why? They’re not allowed to attack the legs in Greco. Therefore it’s all throws.
> 
> Judo doesn’t allow leg takedowns anymore, and to be honest, I don’t think it was an often used thing anyway. Maybe just the level I’ve seen though. I worked the Empire State Games for several years. It was basically an NYS Olympics. Working wrestling most years, Judo was either on the other side of the arena or started before or after wrestling. I always hung around to watch it and help out. According to a lot of sources, the Empire State Games was a very high level Judo competition. Basically a step below international level competition. I didn’t see any leg takedowns. The biggest difference I saw was the pace. Wrestling was high pressure and make things happen, Judo was was more stand your ground and counter.
> 
> Edit: Wrestling was predominantly college guys. Judoka were typically a few years older on average. Think early 20s guys vs mid-late 20s guys.


I think you're correct about Judo never having much in leg takedowns. I don't recall any from my experience with it 30+ years ago.


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## Martial D

TMA17 said:


> My mind was racing thinking about how many different takedowns there are in Judo.  I love watching Judo videos.  But the reality is, as I see it, you don't need to know that many.  Piggybacking off the other post recently about practing one technique for a year or so, vs learning numerious techniques, what takedowns work against almost any opponent regardless of size?
> 
> Let me use a body type example:  A short muscular build with a low center of gravity.  If you had to take someone built like that to the ground, what would be your go to move?  Single or double leg?  What particular judo takedown?  Assume the opponent is shorter than you.
> 
> For Judo I was thinking the one (can't remember the name) where you move in fast, put your right foot in between his legs, move your foot in a circular motion (to the right) and keep moving forward to knock him down.


My favourite takedown is a lead right uppercut, but a left cross will do in a pinch.


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## TMA17

Martial D said:


> My favourite takedown is a lead right uppercut, but a left cross will do in a pinch.



I've only ever punched someone in the face once, and that was when I was 15.  I'm more of a passive/avoid confrontation person.  I've always thought though without gloves it has to hurt like hell to punch someone in the face without gloves on.  LOL


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## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> The bigger problem is what JR is getting at: the Judoka won’t have the counters for several key wrestling takedowns.





JR 137 said:


> Judo doesn’t allow leg takedowns anymore, and to be honest, I don’t think it was an often used thing anyway.



One thing that makes a significant difference is the jacket. When you have a good grip on your opponent's lapel that makes it a lot easier to stuff low line attacks (double and single legs) even when you have a more upright stance.

The upright stance is less effective for shooting low line attacks, but it's better for most other Judo throws (hip throws, foot sweeps, etc). Since the gi lessened the danger from low line shots (and now the new rules have completely eliminated those attacks), the upright stance makes more sense.



gpseymour said:


> My personal take is that Wrestling focuses more on avoiding the takedown, and Judo focuses more on getting the takedown.





JR 137 said:


> The biggest difference I saw was the pace. Wrestling was high pressure and make things happen, Judo was was more stand your ground and counter.



Both wrestling and Judo place a heavy emphasis on offense and have rules which penalize stalling. The difference is that the gi makes it much easier to slow down the movement and thwart attacks. That's why wrestling seems to have more continuous movement and action - the contestants don't have that convenient handle to hold each other in place. A lot of the anti-stalling rules in Judo are focused on the allowable grips, because with the right grips on the gi you can potentially stall for a long time.


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## PiedmontChun

Some takedowns are more "high percentage" than others, depending on the relative body type of you and your opponent.

But.... people will favor takedowns which land them* in the particular position they want* to fight from. Example: My coach, in competition, prefers to pass someone's guard or stack them, playing a top heavy submission strategy, so he WANTS them to pull guard. Therefore, he defends his own legs like a wrestler would, keeps strong grip to keep opponent from getting too close, preventing a single or double leg takedown and somewhat forcing the other guy to play a bottom guard game. One of his long term female students is super lanky / flexible; therefore her strategy is almost the polar opposite. Pull guard early, fight for sleeve grips, often finish with a triangle choke or working toward a back take and choke.

As a bigger (slower), older guy who never wrestled, my wrestling type takedowns are terrible. I did a bit of Judo so foot sweeps from standing are something I look for but don't count on. An explosive collar drag is something I really like in a BJJ context, really using your body weight and stepping off angle to jerk someone off their feet and to the mat. Depending on how they react, you can use it to get to a top position, or pull them into a closed guard and then work from there. As a relative BJJ beginner, I generally have no preference on using a guard from bottom, or trying to stay on top and attack, so I try both, but it seems like with time most people develop a preference for what position(s) they want to fight from, and that sort of dictates their takedown strategy.


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## JR 137

Tony Dismukes said:


> One thing that makes a significant difference is the jacket. When you have a good grip on your opponent's lapel that makes it a lot easier to stuff low line attacks (double and single legs) even when you have a more upright stance.
> 
> The upright stance is less effective for shooting low line attacks, but it's better for most other Judo throws (hip throws, foot sweeps, etc). Since the gi lessened the danger from low line shots (and now the new rules have completely eliminated those attacks), the upright stance makes more sense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both wrestling and Judo place a heavy emphasis on offense and have rules which penalize stalling. The difference is that the gi makes it much easier to slow down the movement and thwart attacks. That's why wrestling seems to have more continuous movement and action - the contestants don't have that convenient handle to hold each other in place. A lot of the anti-stalling rules in Judo are focused on the allowable grips, because with the right grips on the gi you can potentially stall for a long time.


I was going to say grabbing the jacket too, but I forgot.

I didn’t think about grabbing the jacket would stifle leg takedowns and add to the more upright posture, but it makes a ton of sense.

In my limited judo watching experience, I’ve only seen stalling called a couple times. I think wrestling is far quicker to call it, but the whole jacket grabbing makes sense. Once a wrestler is suspected of stalling or doing a technique that’s a known stalling hold, the referee will start counting and motioning with his arm. Like a basketball referee does when the ball is being brought up to half court. I’ve never seen a judo referee do that. I’m not sure how they determine stalling and if there’s an official count, but I imagine there is.


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## Tony Dismukes

JR 137 said:


> I was going to say grabbing the jacket too, but I forgot.
> 
> I didn’t think about grabbing the jacket would stifle leg takedowns and add to the more upright posture, but it makes a ton of sense.
> 
> In my limited judo watching experience, I’ve only seen stalling called a couple times. I think wrestling is far quicker to call it, but the whole jacket grabbing makes sense. Once a wrestler is suspected of stalling or doing a technique that’s a known stalling hold, the referee will start counting and motioning with his arm. Like a basketball referee does when the ball is being brought up to half court. I’ve never seen a judo referee do that. I’m not sure how they determine stalling and if there’s an official count, but I imagine there is.


I’m not very experienced in Judo competition, so I don’t know what sort of warnings a ref might give for stalling. I do have a book by an elite Judo competitor where he mentions that in high level competition matches can be decided by who can manipulate their opponent into accruing stalling penalties. That gets a bit more esoteric than what you will see in lower level competition, so I’m not sure exactly how it works.


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## Martial D

TMA17 said:


> I've only ever punched someone in the face once, and that was when I was 15.  I'm more of a passive/avoid confrontation person.  I've always thought though without gloves it has to hurt like hell to punch someone in the face without gloves on.  LOL


So wait, you've never sparred? You really should if you do any sort of striking art. It helps a lot.

Also, yes it's very easy to hurt your hand hitting skull with bare knuckles .


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## JR 137

TMA17 said:


> I've only ever punched someone in the face once, and that was when I was 15.  I'm more of a passive/avoid confrontation person.  I've always thought though without gloves it has to hurt like hell to punch someone in the face without gloves on.  LOL


Punching someone’s face doesn’t hurt as much as the rest of the head.

Adrenaline kicks in and you really don’t think about it until afterwards.


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## TMA17

Martial D said:


> So wait, you've never sparred? You really should if you do any sort of striking art. It helps a lot.
> 
> Also, yes it's very easy to hurt your hand hitting skull with bare knuckles .



Oh no I've sparred, but we had gloves on.


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## Kung Fu Wang

TMA17 said:


> What takedowns work against almost any opponent regardless of size?


May be the question should be asked, "What is the universal effective set up?" Is there any universal set up that will work for all throws? The answer is yes.

When you have 1 grip on your opponent while your opponent has no grip on you, if your opponent tries to obtain his grip back, you can move in at that moment and "apply almost any throw that you are good at it".

In order to apply this strategy, you have to be good at

- tearing, to tear apart your opponent's grip, and
- circular dragging.

How to drag your opponent in circle and apply your throw when you have 1 grip but your opponent has no grip can be seen in this clip.


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## Hanzou

IMO, I think clench-based takedowns are extremely effective. That said, I think it generally depends on your body type and your general athletic ability. I think flying takedowns would mess someone up, but I can't do them to save my life.

Double Leg takedowns and Football tackles aimed at the legs have proven to be highly effective in various contexts.

I also like this takedown by Firas Zahabi, it reminds me of a spider-monkey.


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## TMA17

Nice thanks for sharing.


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## Hanzou

TMA17 said:


>



As I've said many times, one of the best things contemporary Bjj did was to keep an open mind to other grappling systems and allow those grappling systems to be merged and synthesized into a hybrid grappling system that is somehow STILL called Bjj.

I think the worst thing Judo did was to continuously attempt to purge ground grappling and wrestling from the sport instead of allowing the sport to evolve naturally. If you check out the old stories about Judo, one of the main things that leap out to you is how much Kano seems to have an outright distaste towards ground fighting or the idea of Judo turning into a form of western wrestling. 

One theory that has been floating around is that leg locks were banned from Judo practice not because they were too dangerous, but because they were too effective against standing opponents. This reportedly screwed with Kano's vision of Judo as an art of standing throws. Considering their effectiveness, and the fact that Sambo, Bjj, and MMA all practice leg locks without too much issue, I'm inclined to believe that theory.


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## Martialartsenthusiast

Over the shoulder throw (seoi nage)
All trips are good,ouchi gari, osoto gari
Uchi Mata
Overall hip throws
Foot  sweeps
Double and single leg takedowns
Soto makikomi and it's variations

Sacrifice throws like sumi gaeshi Also work very well has counters.


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## O'Malley

gpseymour said:


> I was speaking philosophically. It accounts for the difference in stance, and the rules in Judo that penalize too much defense. You are correct they're basically approaching the same job, but with a slight difference in priority.
> 
> 
> I think you're correct about Judo never having much in leg takedowns. I don't recall any from my experience with it 30+ years ago.



Is it possible that the stance thing has to do with the origins of both arts? From what I understand, lower stances reduce mobility compared to upright stances (they might also expose vital points?). Since the techniques of judo come from older styles that were used in armed encounters (on the battlefield and/or in civilian armed encounters) where one had to worry more about the weapon (not to mention multiple opponents) and less about the takedown, it might make sense that it has retained a higher stance. In comparison, wrestling has been used in a lot of cultures as a way to submit humans and cattle, often turning into a sport. Parameters such as weapons and multiple opponents did not influence wrestling as much as they influenced judo. An element that supports that theory is that in other forms of wrestling (and that had similar goals) such as sumo, the stance is lower than in judo.







Thoughts?



Hanzou said:


> I think the worst thing Judo did was to continuously attempt to purge ground grappling and wrestling from the sport instead of allowing the sport to evolve naturally. If you check out the old stories about Judo, one of the main things that leap out to you is how much Kano seems to have an outright distaste towards ground fighting or the idea of Judo turning into a form of western wrestling.



I don't know about the leg locks issue (someone who knows about judo history might want to chime in) but the above quote is not true. Kano actually researched western wrestling and, when he saw something worthwhile, he tried to incorporate it as much as he could (for example, by inviting the best martial artists he could find to teach at the Kodokan or by sending some of his best students to study under famous masters). What's more, he already incorporated ground techniques into his judo when he conceived it but, when his judoka were defeated in shiai by Tanabe Mataemon of Fusen-ryu using ground-fighting, Kano allegedly asked Tanabe to teach ground-fighting at the Kodokan so that judo shifted towards a balance between standing and ground grappling. He also welcomed the desire of some of his students such as Oda Tsunetane or Yaichihyoue Kanemitsu to further develop ground fighting, which led to the invention of things like Kosen judo or the triangle choke (source: Ellis Amdur, _Hidden in Plain Sight_, revised edition). Some of the guys at the Kodokan had a strong focus on ground fighting, among which Mistuyo Maeda who later taught the Gracies.

The myth of Kano hating ground-fighting and wanting to "purge" it from judo does not hold up, because

1) he was the one to put it in judo in the first place;
2) he could have removed it anytime if he had wanted to;
3) when he saw that ground-fighting was effective, he added more of it to judo;
4) when his students further developed ground-fighting, he supported them.

One would not be making much of a stretch if one were to say that it was Kano's interest in the ground techniques of Fusen-ryu (and other koryu before them) that popularised them through judo.


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## Gerry Seymour

O'Malley said:


> Is it possible that the stance thing has to do with the origins of both arts? From what I understand, lower stances reduce mobility compared to upright stances (they might also expose vital points?). Since the techniques of judo come from older styles that were used in armed encounters (on the battlefield and/or in civilian armed encounters) where one had to worry more about the weapon (not to mention multiple opponents) and less about the takedown, it might make sense that it has retained a higher stance. In comparison, wrestling has been used in a lot of cultures as a way to submit humans and cattle, often turning into a sport. Parameters such as weapons and multiple opponents did not influence wrestling as much as they influenced judo. An element that supports that theory is that in other forms of wrestling (and that had similar goals) such as sumo, the stance is lower than in judo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts?


That makes sense. There are a lot of factors that influence how a given art or style develops, and I could see those being strong influences in the stances adopted by Judo. And since Judo hasn't (at least for the last 40 years - the part of Judo history I'm vaguely aware of - beyond that I'm mostly clueless) done a lot of adopting material from outside, there wouldn't be a lot of reason for proponents to change the stances that are working for them.


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## Deleted member 39746

I assume a knife introduced to the jugular doesnt constitute a take down in this context?       Its pretty effective for the most part.


Also worth noting, it would be iffy to drop down if you dont have some softish material under your knees, just worth noting preservation of them for the leg takedowns.


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## Tony Dismukes

Rat said:


> Also worth noting, it would be iffy to drop down if you dont have some softish material under your knees, just worth noting preservation of them for the leg takedowns.


You generally only have to touch your knee to the ground for a double leg takedown when your opponent is crouched in a low wrestling stance. If he’s standing up throwing punches you don’t need to go that low.


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> I think you're correct about Judo never having much in leg takedowns. I don't recall any from my experience with it 30+ years ago.


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## dvcochran

Kung Fu Wang said:


>


Those are variations of the single and double leg takedowns in wrestling. I am asking because I do not know, which came first Roman wrestling or Kung Fu? Hey @JR 137 , look familiar?


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## Kung Fu Wang

dvcochran said:


> Those are variations of the single and double leg takedowns in wrestling. I am asking because I do not know, which came first Roman wrestling or Kung Fu? Hey @JR 137 , look familiar?


I don't know about wrestling history. The Chinese wrestling can be traced back to yellow emperor time period (2711 BC?)

This picture can be traced back to the Chin Dynasty (246 BC ~ 207 BC).








- The wrestling double legs drops knee down.
- The Kung Fu double legs does not.

- The wrestling single leg uses both hands to grab the leg.
- The Kung Fu single leg uses one hand to grab the leg, and use the other hand to push the upper body (neck, shoulder, head, ...).


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## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> You generally only have to touch your knee to the ground for a double leg takedown when your opponent is crouched in a low wrestling stance. If he’s standing up throwing punches you don’t need to go that low.


And even if you go to the knee, it's not with a lot of force. I played goalkeeper in soccer for 11 years, and rarely wore knee pads. It probably wasn't a good decision, but even kneeling on a rock never caused much of a distraction in the moment. As @drop bear might comment, the ground isn't lava.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


>


We didn't cover those when I was training, but then I never got to anything like the whole curriculum. I don't recall ever seeing any of the upper belts working those.


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## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> I was speaking philosophically. It accounts for the difference in stance, and the rules in Judo that penalize too much defense. You are correct they're basically approaching the same job, but with a slight difference in priority.
> 
> 
> I think you're correct about Judo never having much in leg takedowns. I don't recall any from my experience with it 30+ years ago.





Kung Fu Wang said:


>


There’s also Te Guruma.








(Second video has no sound.)


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> We didn't cover those when I was training, but then I never got to anything like the whole curriculum. I don't recall ever seeing any of the upper belts working those.


When you use "under hook" to throw your opponent forward, if he resists, you can borrow his resistance, reverse your throwing direction, and change your forward throw into backward single leg or double legs. The under hook is very suitable for that combo switch (because your arms are under your opponent's arms and easier to reach to his leg/legs).


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## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> And even if you go to the knee, it's not with a lot of force. I played goalkeeper in soccer for 11 years, and rarely wore knee pads. It probably wasn't a good decision, but even kneeling on a rock never caused much of a distraction in the moment. As @drop bear might comment, the ground isn't lava.


It doesn’t have to be a lot of force, but I see a lot of guys who should know better dropping their knee down hard on a double leg. I tell my students that even on a padded mat there’s a long term toll involved with repeatedly smashing your knee down hard. Not only that, it makes the double-leg less effective because the impact goes down into the ground instead of forward into your opponent. 

The trick is to drop your hips first as low as possible and then drive forward, rather than just dropping your knee straight down to the ground from a higher stance. Ideally your knee should just lightly touch and go on the ground.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Tony Dismukes said:


> dropping their knee down hard on a double leg.


My teacher always said, "Do you have any dignity to drop your knee/knees in front of your opponent during competition?"


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## Tony Dismukes

Oh, I almost forgot sushi nage:


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## Kung Fu Wang

Tony Dismukes said:


> Oh, I almost forgot sushi nage:


After one Chinese wrestling tournament that a girl's pants was ripped apart by this kind of pants grabbing, the pants grabbing is not allowed in Chinese wrestling.

IMO, in this situation, it's better to use both hands to grab his left leg instead.

At 0.17.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> Oh, I almost forgot sushi nage:


I love the autocorrect on that post, Tony. I'm now trying to figure out exactly what "sushi nage" would be. 

I learned sukui nage years ago in my NGA training, but never had a name for it.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> After one Chinese wrestling tournament that a girl's pants was ripped apart by this kind of pants grabbing, the pants grabbing is not allowed in Chinese wrestling.
> 
> IMO, in this situation, it's better to use both hands to grab his left leg instead.
> 
> At 0.17.


With one leg held, there's still contact to the ground. If they're flexible, they can hang on and maybe not get thrown. Of course, to get both legs, you have to expose yourself a bit more if you go from the front, but from the side (as in the video Tony posted), it's not much exposed. It limits the opportunities a bit as a trade-off for being less exposed.


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## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> I love the autocorrect on that post, Tony. I'm now trying to figure out exactly what "sushi nage" would be.
> 
> I learned sukui nage years ago in my NGA training, but never had a name for it.


Dammit. Didn’t even spot that one. My iPad keeps thinking it knows how to spell better than I do and comes up with some really oddball replacements. (Like Jiu Mitsubishi for jiu-jitsu.)


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## dvcochran

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't know about wrestling history. The Chinese wrestling can be traced back to yellow emperor time period (2711 BC?)
> 
> This picture can be traced back to the Chin Dynasty (246 BC ~ 207 BC).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - The wrestling double legs drops knee down.
> - The Kung Fu double legs does not.
> 
> - The wrestling single leg uses both hands to grab the leg.
> - The Kung Fu single leg uses one hand to grab the leg, and use the other hand to push the upper body (neck, shoulder, head, ...).



Kung Fu is older by a quite a bit it looks like. Wrestling shoots are taught both single arm and double arm. When first learning I believe we were always taught to drop the knee down. But that changes with experience. Good post.


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> With one leg held, there's still contact to the ground. If they're flexible, they can hang on and maybe not get thrown.


Not if you get under the knee first, reach to the ankle, step away, turn around, and lift the ankle over your shoulder.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not if you get under the knee first, reach to the ankle, step away, turn around, and lift the ankle over your shoulder.


As with most techniques, it has its advantages, when the technique can be applied properly. The other technique doesn't require the high lift, and actually opens opportunities for ground follow-ups and slams.


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## PiedmontChun

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not if you get under the knee first, reach to the ankle, step away, turn around, and lift the ankle over your shoulder.


I've worked a similar takedown but stepping to the *outside* as you elevate their leg, versus the *inside* of their leg. It allows for turning them away from you as they fall, so you can follow them to the ground and take their back to setup a submission. I quite liked it. Similar mechanics, different finish.


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## Gerry Seymour

PiedmontChun said:


> I've worked a similar takedown but stepping to the *outside* as you elevate their leg, versus the *inside* of their leg. It allows for turning them away from you as they fall, so you can follow them to the ground and take their back to setup a submission. I quite liked it. Similar mechanics, different finish.


There's one in NGA that's taught initially (and often left there) as a kick defense, that is similar to what you describe. It'd be unlikely to work as a kick defense against a reasonably good kicker, but trains some reasonable options should you get under a leg somehow. Most places don't train any alternate entries, which is a shame. I need to dig that back up and dust it off before students get to that level.


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## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> Those are variations of the single and double leg takedowns in wrestling. I am asking because I do not know, which came first Roman wrestling or Kung Fu? Hey @JR 137 , look familiar?


I was reading this from a while back and somehow never got around to replying...

Looks very familiar. A variation on the double leg takedown we often used. We called it the kamikaze double. We were taught to hit with our head rather than how they’re hitting with their shoulder. A few years later when I started coaching, they were using the shoulder like in the video. The shoulder is far better from an attacker’s safety perspective. Football eliminated “spearing” which is basically tackling by  burying the top of your helmet into the guy, and our head wrestling coach carried that over to this - spearing is a great way to break your neck. Spearing in football was banned a year or two after I graduated.

Edit: the kamikaze double is a lot harder to pull off in wrestling due to the lower stance. It’s most effective when the opponent is nearly upright. With the stereotypical wrestling stance of the head and shoulders forward and bent at the waist, they’re not presenting a great target, hence the traditional double is used far more often. If given equal opportunity to use either one, I’d kamikaze double every time. I’d rather the opponent on his back.


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## marques

TMA17 said:


> My mind was racing thinking about how many different takedowns there are in Judo.  I love watching Judo videos.  But the reality is, as I see it, you don't need to know that many.  Piggybacking off the other post recently about practing one technique for a year or so, vs learning numerious techniques, what takedowns work against almost any opponent regardless of size?
> 
> Let me use a body type example:  A short muscular build with a low center of gravity.  If you had to take someone built like that to the ground, what would be your go to move?  Single or double leg?  What particular judo takedown?  Assume the opponent is shorter than you.
> 
> For Judo I was thinking the one (can't remember the name) where you move in fast, put your right foot in between his legs, move your foot in a circular motion (to the right) and keep moving forward to knock him down.


I would say single leg, even without much experience with it, because easy grip, good control and easy/ier transitions to something else when it fails. 

Slim and light versus round and fat makes difficult any above waste grab (for me at least - and I would replace single leg for a low kick as well  ).

Just a push with the right timing and direction(s) also makes an easy takedown, especially when you can mix it with surprise (not in a Judo match).


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## Kung Fu Wang

*What are the most universal effective takedowns? *

Since your hands are close to your opponent's upper body and your legs are close to your opponent's legs, the most effective take down is to let your hand to do your hand job and to let your leg to do your leg job. This way, both your hand and your leg only have to move a short distance. Also since your hands control your opponent's upper body, you will have less chance to be punched.

Since all leg skill require single leg balance, this may be difficult for beginners to do.

To deal with your opponent's body, if you land

- both feet on the ground, you have only 2 hands.
- 1 foot on the groung, you have 2 hands plus 1 leg.

In Chinese wrestling, this move is called "front cut (or diagonal cut)". In Judo, This move is called "large outer reap".


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## JP3

gpseymour said:


> I love the autocorrect on that post, Tony. I'm now trying to figure out exactly what "sushi nage" would be.
> 
> I learned sukui nage years ago in my NGA training, but never had a name for it.


Think, "scooping throw" and you'll be good. Can be a mean competition throw, and that's meant in just about every sense of the word.

Speaking of interesting takedowns, not that you'd want to use it during a situation where they could punch you and it'd be OK by the rules, or no rules, but kosoto-gari works really well for me, when I'm the taller, longer-limbed orangutan in a match.


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## Gerry Seymour

JP3 said:


> Think, "scooping throw" and you'll be good. Can be a mean competition throw, and that's meant in just about every sense of the word.
> 
> Speaking of interesting takedowns, not that you'd want to use it during a situation where they could punch you and it'd be OK by the rules, or no rules, but kosoto-gari works really well for me, when I'm the taller, longer-limbed orangutan in a match.


It seems like every time I’m reminded of a Judo throw I’ve forgotten, my planned curriculum expands.


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## Tony Dismukes

JP3 said:


> Think, "scooping throw" and you'll be good. Can be a mean competition throw, and that's meant in just about every sense of the word.
> 
> Speaking of interesting takedowns, not that you'd want to use it during a situation where they could punch you and it'd be OK by the rules, or no rules, but kosoto-gari works really well for me, when I'm the taller, longer-limbed orangutan in a match.


In a fight where punches are allowed, kosoto gari works well in conjunction with a body lock. It’s one of the first takedowns taught in classic Gracie jiu-jitsu.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> In a fight where punches are allowed, kosoto gari works well in conjunction with a body lock. It’s one of the first takedowns taught in classic Gracie jiu-jitsu.


What do you mean by "body lock", Tony?


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## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> What do you mean by "body lock", Tony?



Here's an example of one, but I'm not sure that's the one Tony was talking about specifically.






My personal favorite takedown is the standing Kimura.


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## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Here's an example of one, but I'm not sure that's the one Tony was talking about specifically.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My personal favorite takedown is the standing Kimura.


Which part is the body lock? I'm trying to grasp the meaning of the term.


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## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> Which part is the body lock? I'm trying to grasp the meaning of the term.



Around the 25-27 second mark. 

Edit: And the 55-60 second mark.


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## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> In a fight where punches are allowed, kosoto gari works well in conjunction with a body lock. It’s one of the first takedowns taught in classic Gracie jiu-jitsu.



And similar to some thai clinch sweeps.


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## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> And similar to some thai clinch sweeps.



I really need to join a MT gym at some point.


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## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Around the 25-27 second mark.
> 
> Edit: And the 55-60 second mark.


Thanks.


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## Tony Dismukes

Hanzou said:


> Here's an example of one, but I'm not sure that's the one Tony was talking about specifically.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My personal favorite takedown is the standing Kimura.


That’s not exactly the way I teach it, but it’s the general idea.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> Around the 25-27 second mark.
> 
> Edit: And the 55-60 second mark.


Glad to see you come back.

In the striking environment, do you think any take down that require "clinch" (such as bear hug) is always more difficult to do than those that doesn't? If we just talk about the upper body contact, what can be easier than just to use your leading arm to jam your opponent's upper arm?


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## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Glad to see you come back.
> 
> In the striking environment, do you think any take down that require "clinch" (such as bear hug) is always more difficult to do than those that doesn't? If we just talk about the upper body contact, what can be easier than just to use your leading arm to jam your opponent's upper arm?



You mean why do you let your opponents arm dangle freely? Supposedly, that free arm cant do much because you have their hips locked, they're off balance, and they dont have any reasonable targets. I've never used that body lock in a striking situation, so I cant say one way or another.


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## JP3

Tony Dismukes said:


> In a fight where punches are allowed, kosoto gari works well in conjunction with a body lock. It’s one of the first takedowns taught in classic Gracie jiu-jitsu.


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## JP3

Tony Dismukes said:


> In a fight where punches are allowed, kosoto gari works well in conjunction with a body lock. It’s one of the first takedowns taught in classic Gracie jiu-jitsu.


Nomenclature, Tony. When you say "body lock," what is it that you're doing. Might be one of the "spine locks" I use, but maybe not.  I mean, I can see a kosoto working great from a clinch, like that. Is that what you mean?


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## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> You mean why do you let your opponents arm dangle freely? Supposedly, that free arm cant do much because you have their hips locked, they're off balance, and they dont have any reasonable targets. I've never used that body lock in a striking situation, so I cant say one way or another.


It's possible but I won't say that's the "most universal effective" strategy. What's the easiest way to establish contact in the striking environment when fists are flying? IMO, the bear hug is not the one.


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## Tony Dismukes

JP3 said:


> Nomenclature, Tony. When you say "body lock," what is it that you're doing. Might be one of the "spine locks" I use, but maybe not.  I mean, I can see a kosoto working great from a clinch, like that. Is that what you mean?


Yeah, in a BJJ/wrestling context a "body lock" is basically a grip with both arms around the opponent's torso. For the kosoto gari set up I like an under-the-arms* bear hug/clinch from the front or side with your center of gravity lower than your opponent's and with your forearm across the small of their back pulling their hips in tight to yours. I teach my students to get the top of their head under the opponent's chin, which helps to break their structure. It's a control position, not a submission like a joint (arm/wrist/finger/knee/ankle) lock.

*(You can also do a body lock from the side with the opponent's near arm trapped, but that would typically be used for a lifting throw rather than breaking the opponent down backwards as in the video above.)


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> I really need to join a MT gym at some point.



Yeah. They have some straight up voodoo.


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## JP3

Tony Dismukes said:


> *(You can also do a body lock from the side with the opponent's near arm trapped, but that would typically be used for a lifting throw rather than breaking the opponent down backwards as in the video above.)


I got you. In the side position, that's where I'd find taniotoshi quite often, too.


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## Buka

My wife always liked this one. Worked well for her.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> View attachment 22283
> My wife always liked this one. Worked well for her.


I've never met her, and I think I'm a little scared of her.


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## JR 137

Buka said:


> View attachment 22283
> My wife always liked this one. Worked well for her.


Looks like she’s throwing around a rag doll. Now I know why you kept her around all these years


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## Buka

gpseymour said:


> I've never met her, and I think I'm a little scared of her.





JR 137 said:


> Looks like she’s throwing around a rag doll. Now I know why you kept her around all these years



That's her Jits instructor, working on her take downs. She has some good ones, she's a good Martial Artist.

Used to be a nice person. But now, as described by friends - "A door in your home, purposely slamming hard enough to hurt your ears, over and over and over." (Their words not mine) Probably the most apt description I've ever heard.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> That's her Jits instructor, working on her take downs. She has some good ones, she's a good Martial Artist.
> 
> Used to be a nice person. But now, as described by friends - "A door in your home, purposely slamming hard enough to hurt your ears, over and over and over." (Their words not mine) Probably the most apt description I've ever heard.


Yikes.


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## Kung Fu Wang

This short guy used bear hug, inner hook to take his opponent down over and over.


----------

