# Cross-Training in Kuk Sool Won and Tae Kwondo



## Jedmus (Oct 7, 2016)

I've been training in ITF Tae Kwondo for a while and will be grading for my blue belt this week. I was just wondering what opinions are of training in both Tae Kwondo and Kuk Sool Won as I have found a very good school in my area for this.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 7, 2016)

I have never studied Kuk Sool Wojn, but I think it to share similarities of the Hapkido I studied.  That is, it has a predominance of grappling techniques.  I personally think an art like TKD and KSW would complement each other.  If you find that not so, you would have to stay with the one you prefer.

If you choose to do so, let us know how it goes, and if you think they compliment each other or interfere with each other.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2016)

I stumbled across some of their organizational information online, not long ago.  Their rule books and such were available for perusal.  What I got from reading that is that they forbid their students from cross training.  You have to agree to train nothing but Kuk sool, or they don't accept you as a student.  Their rules even state that you cannot train other stuff in private, if memory serves.

Perhaps some teachers are more lenient about it and don't try to enforce what seems to me to be unenforceable without seriously invading someone's privacy.  But if they find out you still train or practice something else, they can choose to reject you as a student.  It's in the bylaws.


----------



## Jedmus (Oct 7, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I have never studied Kuk Sool Wojn, but I think it to share similarities of the Hapkido I studied. That is, it has a predominance of grappling techniques. I personally think an art like TKD and KSW would complement each other. If you find that not so, you would have to stay with the one you prefer.
> 
> If you choose to do so, let us know how it goes, and if you think they compliment each other or interfere with each other.



Thanks for your help, I'll go along to the classes on monday and let you know what I think but hopefully you're right and it will help to complement my Tae Kwondo



Flying Crane said:


> I stumbled across some of their organizational information online, not long ago. Their rule books and such were available for perusal. What I got from reading that is that they forbid their students from cross training. You have to agree to train nothing but Kuk sool, or they don't accept you as a student. Their rules even state that you cannot train other stuff in private, if memory serves.
> 
> Perhaps some teachers are more lenient about it and don't try to enforce what seems to me to be unenforceable without seriously invading someone's privacy. But if they find out you still train or practice something else, they can choose to reject you as a student. It's in the bylaws.



Is this Kuk Sool or Kuk Sool Won? I haven't heard of that before and like you said, I don't see a way that they can forbid students from training in other Martial Arts


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2016)

Jedmus said:


> Thanks for your help, I'll go along to the classes on monday and let you know what I think but hopefully you're right and it will help to complement my Tae Kwondo
> 
> 
> 
> Is this Kuk Sool or Kuk Sool Won? I haven't heard of that before and like you said, I don't see a way that they can forbid students from training in other Martial Arts


It was kuk sool won, if there is a difference I guess I don't know it.  It's the one headed and controlled by the Suh family.  

They can't control what you do in your life, but they can refuse to teach you if you are doing something they don't like.  Instructor certification is highly controlled and they can insist that instructors follow their rules, or be likewise kicked out.  It is a business, whether or not the training is any good.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2016)

Go here, and check out page nine.

http://www.kuksoolwon.com/secure/securedocs/WKSA Black Belt Handbook.pdf


----------



## chrispillertkd (Oct 7, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I have never studied Kuk Sool Wojn, but I think it to share similarities of the Hapkido I studied.



GM Seo, In Sun (GM Suh, In Hyuk's brother) studied with the founder of Hapkido, GM Choi, Yong Sul so that wouldn't be totally surprising, IMHO.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## drop bear (Oct 7, 2016)

Do that thing you want to do.


----------



## Jedmus (Oct 10, 2016)

Thanks for the information everyone  it looks like some classes are more strict than others with this. I'm going to ask today when I go for my trial there and see what he says. If not I may look around for Hapkido as I definitely want to train in something else to complement my Tae Kwondo


----------



## Jedmus (Oct 10, 2016)

Went to the Kuk Sool Won classes tonight and they said that when my training hits a certain point I would likely be asked to choose. Really liked the system but if it means not training in any other martial arts I'd rather not limit myself by joining Kuk Sool Won


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 11, 2016)

Jedmus said:


> Went to the Kuk Sool Won classes tonight and they said that when my training hits a certain point I would likely be asked to choose. Really liked the system but if it means not training in any other martial arts I'd rather not limit myself by joining Kuk Sool Won



Did they say what that point was?  In Korea, it wasn't uncommon that when a student in an art reached 3rd Dan, they would be encouraged to pick another art and earn a 1st Dan.  Then decide if they wanted to stay with the new art, or return to the first art. 

But if they are going to say you must choose at some point in the colored belt levels, I would ask why.  Of course, if you choose to study there, when you reach that level, you may understand why and decide on your own.  I thought my limited prior study of TKD was a help when I began studying Hapkido, but I had no desire to again take up TKD.


----------



## Jedmus (Oct 11, 2016)

All that they said was that they may find themselves having to re-teach certain things and that it may hinder my progress but I have messaged them to see if they will make an exception as I have cross trained previously in Aikido while going Tae Kwondo and found it didn't hinder my progress in any way. They are quite a new school (only opened a year ago) so it may be that they haven't had any experience with this before.

I was looking into Hapkido or Kuk Sool One but unfortunately there are no Hapkido schools in my area


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 11, 2016)

Jedmus said:


> All that they said was that they may find themselves having to re-teach certain things and that it may hinder my progress but I have messaged them to see if they will make an exception as I have cross trained previously in Aikido while going Tae Kwondo and found it didn't hinder my progress in any way. They are quite a new school (only opened a year ago) so it may be that they haven't had any experience with this before.
> 
> I was looking into Hapkido or Kuk Sool One but unfortunately there are no Hapkido schools in my area



Well, as I said, I have never studied Kook Sul Won, and only seen it demonstrated a couple of times.  But I didn't find anything I had to relearn from TKD to Hapkido.  I would think that could only happen if in the TKD you are studying, you learned a technique that is done differently from the Kook Sul Won you will study.  That shouldn't be difficult.  There can't be that many you will learn in TKD, and you will simply tell yourself to learn a new technique, similar to one you already know.  That probably will happen a few times in Kook Sul Won anyway.  But I wouldn't ask them to make exceptions.  Either do things their way or don't study there.

That is my opinion only and isn't binding on your Kook Sul Won school.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 11, 2016)

Jedmus said:


> Went to the Kuk Sool Won classes tonight and they said that when my training hits a certain point I would likely be asked to choose. Really liked the system but if it means not training in any other martial arts I'd rather not limit myself by joining Kuk Sool Won


The link I posted, suggests to me that this is at black belt level.

Depends on your situation.  You could just practice your TKD privately and not let them know.  That probably means practice alone, not with another school or training partners, or eventually you will be seen.

It's up to you.  I understand the idea that you should focus on one method, and it is up to the teacher to decide if he is willing to teach you.  But writing it into the bylaws seems a bit draconian.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 11, 2016)

I wouldn't bother.  Kuk Sool Won does not chamber their kicks, TKD does.  There's also a lack of emphasis on what is called kime in Japanese karate (something that TKD also has, more or less) and that will be a pain for you when practicing the KSW forms.

The overlap within both arts is considerable.  I'd suggest you take up something like aikido instead if you want to cross train and continue to train ITF TKD.  Better yet, stay with the TKD exclusively until you reach a relatively expert level.  Blue belt is kinda early to start thinking about seeking out other MA experiences.


----------



## Jedmus (Oct 12, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> The link I posted, suggests to me that this is at black belt level.
> 
> Depends on your situation. You could just practice your TKD privately and not let them know. That probably means practice alone, not with another school or training partners, or eventually you will be seen.
> 
> It's up to you. I understand the idea that you should focus on one method, and it is up to the teacher to decide if he is willing to teach you. But writing it into the bylaws seems a bit draconian.



I have been in conversation with the Kuk Sool Won school and he has decided that, as long as I do not bring my TKD training into my Kuk Sool Won classes and vice versa, I can train with him as normal. 

All he did was message my instructor in TKD to let her know personally as a sign of respect


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 12, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> The link I posted, suggests to me that this is at black belt level.
> 
> Depends on your situation.  You could just practice your TKD privately and not let them know.  That probably means practice alone, not with another school or training partners, or eventually you will be seen.
> 
> It's up to you.  I understand the idea that you should focus on one method, and it is up to the teacher to decide if he is willing to teach you.  But writing it into the bylaws seems a bit draconian.



In your link, they are not only prohibited from practicing another art, they are not allowed to discuss other art's techniques, and they are required to report other students who practice another art.

I could see reluctance in allowing study of another grappling art, out of fear it might confuse the student, or that the student might give false impressions, but that seems unlikely to me.  But it is their art and school.

I would be reluctant to lie to my school's instructors and other students.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 12, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> In your link, they are not only prohibited from practicing another art, they are not allowed to discuss other art's techniques, and they are required to report other students who practice another art.
> 
> I could see reluctance in allowing study of another grappling art, out of fear it might confuse the student, or that the student might give false impressions, but that seems unlikely to me.  But it is their art and school.
> 
> I would be reluctant to lie to my school's instructors and other students.


I agree.  entering into the school with a deception from the get-to is likely to end badly.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 12, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> In your link, they are not only prohibited from practicing another art, they are not allowed to discuss other art's techniques, and they are required to report other students who practice another art.
> 
> I could see reluctance in allowing study of another grappling art, out of fear it might confuse the student, or that the student might give false impressions, but that seems unlikely to me.  But it is their art and school.
> 
> I would be reluctant to lie to my school's instructors and other students.



You just don't train in schools that do that.

It screams of cult.  And the benefits just dont reflect the cost.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 12, 2016)

drop bear said:


> You just don't train in schools that do that.
> 
> It screams of cult.  And the benefits just dont reflect the cost.


I agree.  Especially the bit about other students having an obligation to tattle.  No thanks.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 13, 2016)

From the black belt handbook linked above:


> 2. Black Belts shall not exchange any technical knowledge with students or Instructors from other Martial Arts styles whatsoever.
> 3. Black Belts may not attend Martial Arts seminars organized by other Martial Arts styles, organizations, associations, etc. Black Belts may attend Kuk Sool Won™ seminars and workshops only.  Black Belts must immediately inform the WKSA if he or she has knowledge that any member attends any Martial Arts instructions, seminars or workshops organized by associations other than the WKSA.





> 13. Black Belts must not wear any Black Belt other than those presented by or obtained from WKSA headquarters. Black Belts 1st and 2nd Degree shall wear the standard width black belt.  Upon promotion to 3rd Degree and higher, the wider width Black Belt may be worn.  A Black Belt may embroider their name (if desired) on the Belt provided from WKSA HQ only.  Note: Only the name- no other embellishment.
> 14. All Black Belt Uniforms, Generals' Uniforms, Instructor Uniform, Training Uniform, BBC Pants and Patches must be obtained from WKSA or suppliers approved by WKSA in writing.  Currently the only authorized supplier of these items is GayaWon, LLC.





> 16.  Publishing or discussion of any personal information, disparaging remarks or statements, or grievances relating in any way to another member, any do-jahng, the Association, or any employee, officer or owner of the foregoing, is prohibited. This Handbook sets forth the acceptable way to discuss and resolve issues and must be followed.  The use of internet forums, blogs and social networking sites to discuss grievances or other matters relating to the Association is prohibited. Any person found to be breaking this rule may have their Association membership revoked, thus forfeiting all privileges and rights of membership.
> 17. Black Belts must always be addressed by their proper martial art title both in *and out* of the School.  Using WKSA titles, even among friends, shows the highest respect and courtesy.



Yeah ... I wouldn't touch this organization with a 10 foot pole, but that's just me. Not a fan of control freaks or cult-like institutions.


----------



## Jacob (Feb 1, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Did they say what that point was?  In Korea, it wasn't uncommon that when a student in an art reached 3rd Dan, they would be encouraged to pick another art and earn a 1st Dan.  Then decide if they wanted to stay with the new art, or return to the first art.
> 
> But if they are going to say you must choose at some point in the colored belt levels, I would ask why.  Of course, if you choose to study there, when you reach that level, you may understand why and decide on your own.  I thought my limited prior study of TKD was a help when I began studying Hapkido, but I had no desire to again take up TKD.


From my understanding off it from my instructor, They want to try and prevent Kuk Sool from being watered down with other arts. Kuk Sool was passed down generationally, and In Hyuk Suh, the grandmaster, is the first to teach it largely outside of the family. He doesn't want too many other martial arts to look like Kuk Sool and vice versa.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Feb 2, 2017)

Jacob said:


> From my understanding off it from my instructor, They want to try and prevent Kuk Sool from being watered down with other arts. Kuk Sool was passed down generationally, and In Hyuk Suh, the grandmaster, is the first to teach it largely outside of the family. He doesn't want too many other martial arts to look like Kuk Sool and vice versa.



I can understand one's belief in the art one teaches, and that it contains good techniques.  But I have seen moves and techniques that I thought were good enough to learn.  That whether or not they may be techniques taught at higher belts in Hapkido.  A good technique is a good technique.

A good technique does not water down other arts, including my Hapkido, unless it strongly contradicts a specific application of techniques in that art.  I think that unlikely in effective MA, but it might be possible.

If my teacher were not to wish to teach that, so be it.  It would be his decision for himself and his school.  I would probably wish to learn it anyway, and just wouldn't flaunt it in my Hapkido classes.

EDIT:  I see you haven't gone to the Meet and Greet sub-forum and introduced yourself.  It gives us a chance to know you a little better.  At any rate, Welcome to MT.


----------



## thanson02 (Feb 5, 2017)

Jacob said:


> From my understanding off it from my instructor, They want to try and prevent Kuk Sool from being watered down with other arts. Kuk Sool was passed down generationally, and In Hyuk Suh, the grandmaster, is the first to teach it largely outside of the family. He doesn't want too many other martial arts to look like Kuk Sool and vice versa.



I run into this with my martial art as well and I have heard this rational from different people in our community over the years.  I also know that every one of them eventually quit because their fervor eventually dies out.  For those of us us who stick around, we understand the need for distinctiveness in what we do.  We also know that the reasons we train can be different then why others train, our attitudes towards what we do changes over time, and you can tip your hat towards quality techniques provided by other systems.

The thing with the passing down generationally is that it ends up being a game of phone tag.  Every instructor will give you, not what they were taught, but their current understanding of what they have.  That can be either be really good or really bad, but they might be required to pass on the information regardless.  There is also the attitude that a particular system is promoting in regards to their system.  When you mix systems, you mix attitudes and values.  That is fine if everyone agrees on what they are, but when they do not, it causes issues.  All you need to do is look at all the debates between traditional martial artist and the MMA community to get a feel for that one.


----------

