# Isn't This Disgusting?



## Big Don (Dec 29, 2007)

From USA Today:
Girl won Hannah Montana tickets with fake essay   GARLAND, Texas (AP)  An essay that won a 6-year-old girl four tickets to a Hannah Montana concert began with the powerful line: "My daddy died this year in Iraq."
 While gripping, it was not true  and now the girl may lose her tickets after her mom acknowledged to contest organizers it was all a lie.


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## Lisa (Dec 29, 2007)

This line is especially revolting:



> "We did the essay and that's what we did to win," Priscilla Ceballos, the mother, said in an interview with Dallas TV station KDFW. "We did whatever we could do to win."



Wow.  Teach your child to win at all costs.  Lie and pull on the heart strings of others to get what you want.  Theres a Christmas message for you.


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## Kacey (Dec 29, 2007)

That's just unspeakably wrong.


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## BrandiJo (Dec 29, 2007)

I think i read somewhere that the committee wasn't going to take the tickets back.  However, i am not aware of the rules, but did it say the essay has to be true? if not it could be murky water.


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## fireman00 (Dec 29, 2007)

That story is unbelievable... there are hundreds of children who whose mom or dad HAVE died in Iraq and this woman seems to have no issues with the web of deception she wove?    Absolutely disgusting that their morals, scruples, ethics are so screwed up that they would conspire to write such a story.    They should be made to visit families who have lost a parent to see what their life has become.


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## exile (Dec 29, 2007)

At this point, if the committee _doesn't_ take the tickets back, they are collaborating in this loathsome deception and helping promulgate the message that lying is OK if the stakes are important enough to you. We should be watching this episode in the same way we watch to see whether major league baseball will step up and confiscate the official records held by people who wind up being convicted of steroid use/abuse in the BALCO cases. In both cases, and all similar cases, we're seeing individual creepiness of a kind which will always be with us; the major question is, what will the response be of powerful or high-profile institutions to this kind of personal dishonesty? If they play along and give it a pass, that would be the worst aspect of the whole case. If people are going to be creeps, the last thing we need is for organizations to send the message that yes, this is how you succeed.


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## grydth (Dec 29, 2007)

Scene I'd like to see: a war widow from Iraq thoroughly kicking the snot out of the "mother" that put the 6 year old up to this and saying, " I just *did what I had to do*, too!"

With all the fake veterans ("Stolen Valor") we have seen, can there be real surprise that kids are doing this?


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## michaeledward (Dec 29, 2007)

I think the prices for Hannah Montana concert tickets is disgusting. And that parents choose to pay the exhorbitant prices from the ticket resellers and auction sites is disgusting. And the Disney marketing of Miley Cyrus as the product 'Hannah Montana' is disgusting. 

A little girl making up a story to win concert tickets, I am not sure that is disgusting. 

I can't help but wonder at the outrage of her chosen topic, and not seeing a similar outrage for the prosecution of a war which has some 160,000 fellow Americans in harms way. 

Incidentally, I checked, and by definition, the word 'essay' seems to have a strong leaning toward, but not a specific reference to, a 'truthful' personal opinion.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 29, 2007)

That mother NEEDS in some way to be punished for this. I have no other civilized words fit for posting at this time.

I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt that her surname does not automatically equate to illegal alien status because if that *did* turn out to be true, what I'd have to say about her stealing the honor of an American Soldier and trivializing the grief of families who have lost loved ones  for her own ends would be sufficiently worse as to have my account under review just like that.


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## Big Don (Dec 29, 2007)

If people were not willing to pay the high prices for the tickets, the price would go down. That is how capitalism and free markets work.


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## michaeledward (Dec 29, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt that her surname does not automatically equate to illegal alien status


 
Well, isn't that nice of you. Have you seen Tellner's thread?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 29, 2007)

Okay that is disgusting!


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## BrandiJo (Dec 29, 2007)

i guess i only see a problem if the essay was supposed to be a true story or evet. I mean i have done some pretty creative writing in classes and they stretched the truth and pulled heart strings. So i only would fault the mother if she coached her child to write (and helped write) a fictional story when the contest was for a true story.


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## crushing (Dec 29, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> A little girl making up a story to win concert tickets, I am not sure that is disgusting.


 
I know little children can be manipulative, but for her to have the understanding of human psychology to pull this off on her own would be incredible for a six year old.  I don't think of the little girl as the one that did something disgusting.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 29, 2007)

> i guess i only see a problem if the essay was supposed to be a true story or evet. I mean i have done some pretty creative writing in classes and they stretched the truth and pulled heart strings. So i only would fault the mother if she coached her child to write (and helped write) a fictional story when the contest was for a true story.




That's pretty much exactly as it appears to me.

The whole" cheating to win" thing is bad enough, but you probably guessed by now, me being in the military, and serving in direct support of the servicemen and women who have to literally risk everything over there, why I have such strong feelings concerning the lack of respect shown this country's soldiers by one of its own citizens for ANY reason, let alone such a trivial stupid purpose as this.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 29, 2007)

crushing said:


> I don't think of the little girl as the one that did something disgusting.


 
Nobody is , he just wants to stir the pot because he can't NOT stir it.It's in his blood, he can't help it. May as well tell the poor fellow to stop breathing.


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## michaeledward (Dec 29, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> me being in the military,


 
That's a stretch of a claim, isn't it?


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## Big Don (Dec 29, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> That's a stretch of a claim, isn't it?


How is claiming a child's father was a soldier that was killed not offensive to the military?


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 29, 2007)

Big Don said:


> How is claiming a child's father was a soldier that was killed not offensive to the military?


 
After looking to see what was in Mike's message( I don't think he realizes he's on my Ignore list), it appears he is, true to form, attempting to bait me, in this case by calling my military service into question,(and, once again, a totally off topic hijack as well) possessing the temerity to insinuate that because I am in the Massachusetts State Guard and not a federal branch of the military, that my claim to be in the military is a "stretch of a claim".

Used to be a time I'd have gotten mad about this sort of thing but at this point it's so old that I want to laugh, but instead I'm just shaking my head.

So before once again, and this time finally, consigning our favorite Confused Gentleman to the depths of Ignoreville, I will clarify the matter definitively for those of you who matter:

In point of fact it is no stretch of any claim: The MASG Is Part of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Military Division, organized under Chapter 33 of the Massachusetts General Laws and our chain-of-command is identical to that of the regular Massachusetts Army and Air National Guard, we get our orders from the same people, that being the Governor through the Adjutant General.

Anything else those of you interested would like to know may be found at the State Guard's website( www.mastateguard.com )

For what it's worth I'm also in the US Civil Air Patrol (www.cap.gov) at the same time.

The most elite military unit since the Knights of the Round Table it ain't, but no doubt it is greater service than my accuser will EVER perform.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.


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## Lisa (Dec 29, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> I think the prices for Hannah Montana concert tickets is disgusting. And that parents choose to pay the exhorbitant prices from the ticket resellers and auction sites is disgusting. And the Disney marketing of Miley Cyrus as the product 'Hannah Montana' is disgusting.



Disgusting yes, but in a different sense then what the subject of this thread is about.  There are different degrees and types of disgust.



michaeledward said:


> A little girl making up a story to win concert tickets, I am not sure that is disgusting.



I don't think a little girl making up a story is disgusting either, kids makes stories up to get what they want all the time.  What I find disgusting is that the mother allowed and for all intense purposes, helped the child do a dishonst thing for a set of tickets to a concert of someone that in 5 years we won't even know anymore.  That is disgusting.



michaeledward said:


> I can't help but wonder at the outrage of her chosen topic, and not seeing a similar outrage for the prosecution of a war which has some 160,000 fellow Americans in harms way.



You really think that there is no outrage for that?  I have read threads on subjects of the war here, do a search.  However, if you feel that there isn't one that sufficiently satisfies that specific topic, please feel free to start one.  This thread isn't about that.



crushing said:


> I know little children can be manipulative, but for her to have the understanding of human psychology to pull this off on her own would be incredible for a six year old.  I don't think of the little girl as the one that did something disgusting.



I don't think she did either, as I quoted earlier in the thread:



> "We did the essay and that's what we did to win," Priscilla Ceballos, the mother, said in an interview with Dallas TV station KDFW. "We did whatever we could do to win."



The mother was obviously involved.  And that is not only disgusting but sad beyond words.  Teaching a child to out right lie to win concert tickets and use a subject to pull on the heart strings of others, is repulsive.


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## michaeledward (Dec 29, 2007)

The State Militias report through the Department of Homeland Security. They are not part of the Department of Defense. 

Anyone who chooses to look at the term 'military', as commonly referenced in this country, will recognize that our 'Military' is organized in five branches (Army, Air Force, Marines, Navy, Coast Guard), with the Commander-in-Chief being the President of the United States. 

I mean no disrespect to anyone's service. To claim that the Massachusetts State Guard is 'military' is far outside the normative use of that term. You are not under the command of the President. The Massachusetts State Guard is under the command of Governor Deval Patrick.


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## Lisa (Dec 29, 2007)

Can we please just get back to the subject at hand and not make this about anyone in particular.


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## Kacey (Dec 29, 2007)

I agree with Lisa - teaching a child to lie deliberately to win tickets to a concert is reprehensible.

As far as nit-picking about whether or not the militia is part of the military based on who it reports to, I find that to be a different topic entirely; perhaps you should start another thread if you wish to discuss that issue.


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## michaeledward (Dec 29, 2007)

OK, so why aren't we discussing the reprehensible adjudicators for Club Libby Lu? No doubt, with the popularity of the Market Machine that is Hannah Montana, they received thousands of entries. 

It would seem to me that Club Libby Lu chose the essay in question to garner free press; to generate attention and dollars based on a dead soldier. 

No doubt, every person who submitted an essay would say the exact same thing about their entry; "_We did the essay and that's what we did to win. We did whatever we could do to win_." Other entrants may not have chosen to enter a fictional essay, but I am certain each of them entered with the intention of doing whatever they could to win.  That is why people participate in these types of events. Hell, when I buy a Lottery Ticket, I do it so that I can win. 

The mother was honest with the company when asked if the story was true. There was no ongoing deceptions. It was a work of fiction to win a highly sought after prize. 

It would seem to me that if one wishes to be outraged, Saks, and Club Libby Lu would be a good place to start. 

There's no such thing as 'bad', free press, eh?


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## Big Don (Dec 29, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> The State Militias report through the Department of Homeland Security. They are not part of the Department of Defense.
> 
> Anyone who chooses to look at the term 'military', as commonly referenced in this country, will recognize that our 'Military' is organized in five branches (Army, Air Force, Marines, Navy, Coast Guard), with the Commander-in-Chief being the President of the United States.
> 
> I mean no disrespect to anyone's service. To claim that the Massachusetts State Guard is 'military' is far outside the normative use of that term. You are not under the command of the President. The Massachusetts State Guard is under the command of Governor Deval Patrick.


You don't know what the hell you are talking about.


> The National Guard, the oldest component of the Armed Forces of         the United States and one of the nation's longest-enduring institutions,         celebrated its 370th birthday on December 13, 2006. The National         Guard traces its history back to the earliest English colonies in         North America. Responsible for their own defense, the colonists drew         on English military tradition and organized their able-bodied male         citizens into militias.


http://www.ngb.army.mil/About/default.aspx
The National Guard is a reserve component of the military, hence their officers having RESERVE commissions, hence the .mil web address, which is exclusive to the military and DOD. The National Guard did indeed grow out of the old militias, but the idea that they are not a part of the military is foolish, even for you.


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## MJS (Dec 29, 2007)

*Attention All Users:*

*Please return to the original thread topic which is:*



> From USA Today:
> Girl won Hannah Montana tickets with fake essay GARLAND, Texas (AP)  An essay that won a 6-year-old girl four tickets to a Hannah Montana concert began with the powerful line: "My daddy died this year in Iraq."
> While gripping, it was not true  and now the girl may lose her tickets after her mom acknowledged to contest organizers it was all a lie.


 
Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin


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## Big Don (Dec 30, 2007)

Now USA Today is reporting that she has lost the tickets due to her story being a lie


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## Kreth (Dec 30, 2007)

Big Don said:


> Now USA Today is reporting that she has lost the tickets due to her story being a lie


From the comments:


> Mom and daughter are already working on the next essay:
> 
> Dear Publishers Clearing House,
> 
> Today I was diagnosed with terminal cancer.............


:lol:


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## Tez3 (Dec 30, 2007)

I say chaps, never mind arguing who is in the military...who the hell is Hannah Montana? 

From the OED
*essay*



   *noun* /*ess*ay/ *1* a piece of writing on a particular subject. *2* [SIZE=-1]formal[/SIZE] an attempt or effort. 
   *verb* /e*say*/ [SIZE=-1]formal[/SIZE] attempt. 
  [SIZE=-1] DERIVATIVES[/SIZE] *essayist* [SIZE=-1]noun[/SIZE] *essayistic* [SIZE=-1]adjective[/SIZE].   [SIZE=-1] ORIGIN[/SIZE] Old French _essai_ trial; the verb is an alteration of [SIZE=-1]ASSAY[/SIZE].


An essay is a piece of writing no more no less. The rules of the competition would have to be checked to see whether rulles were broken.


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## Kreth (Dec 30, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> who the hell is Hannah Montana?


Long version. Short version: Second generation redneck "musician" currently being pimped by Disney.


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## Tez3 (Dec 30, 2007)

Kreth said:


> Long version. Short version: Second generation redneck "musician" currently being pimped by Disney.


 
Sounds fun! 

I suspect the aspect of cheating is not whether essay was true or not, as I said that depends on the rules but perhaps whether is was actually written by the child.


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## michaeledward (Jan 4, 2008)

I can't help but wonder if the reaction of our fellow citizens was more disgusting than the original event. 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22502162/



> The 25-year-old Ceballos, who has two other children, said that the negative publicity and public scorn heaped on her since her ruse was exposed three days after Christmas has forced her out of her home and destroyed her life.


 
Perhaps a bit hyperbolic, perhaps not.


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## Big Don (Jan 4, 2008)

Forced her out of her home? How? She win that with different lie? Unless she had, there is no way it could have forced her from her home.


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## crushing (Jan 4, 2008)

michaeledward said:


> I can't help but wonder if the *reaction of our fellow citizens was more disgusting *than the original event.


 
The collective reaction (whatever that may be) or specific reactions of some people?

Is it the really scorn and negativity, or the tell-tale heart that  *DESTROYED HER LIFE*. (hyperbolic, indeed!)

I hope she can move on, didn't pretty much everyone else that cared much about it do so already?


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## tellner (Jan 4, 2008)

People will do despicable things for money or for things that are worth money. This is not exactly news :shrug:


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## TheArtofDave (Jan 11, 2008)

I too, find this very disgusting and feel as if they should have been disqualified at best. I know the little girl would be heart broken because of this but her mother should not have enouraged such dishonest behaviour to begin with.

Now I because of a medical condition was not able to serve in the military. But before my knowledge of this it was destined to be life at one time until recently.

Every branch of the military has reserves. Air Force/Navy has the National Air Guard. The National Guard is usually Army based. But usually its just the reserves which are suppose to be on a part time basis. Unfortunately in today's military you've got the extended leave until they get this war figured out. I applaud, and support all of our soldiers because they're our best line of defense. 

Ok sorry to be patriotic in a disgust related thread but I just wanted to throw that out there. Back to the original topic now.


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## michaeledward (Jan 11, 2008)

I guess it is OK for Hannah Montana to present a fiction. The irony is so thick on this. 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Music/01/11/music.hannahswitch.ap/index.html



> After Hannah has completed the featured verse on the duet with the Jonas Brothers, *a body double appears approximately one to two minutes* prior to the end of the song in order to allow Miley to remove the Hannah wig and costume and transform into Miley for her solo set. Other than during this very brief transitional moment in the show, Miley performs live during the entirety of both the Hannah and Miley segments of the concert."


 
I wonder if this will generate any outrage about 'fake' or 'phony'.


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## crushing (Jan 11, 2008)

michaeledward said:


> I guess it is OK for Hannah Montana to present a fiction. The irony is so thick on this.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Music/01/11/music.hannahswitch.ap/index.html
> 
> ...


 
If you are being serious.  

I don't see why it would generate outrage and it really isn't ironic.  It's just a show.  People have become 'other' people on stage for years and have used all sorts of tricks and techniques to put on a show and keep a show moving.  Just ask Vincent Furnier, Dee Snider, Brian Warner, and a host of others, many not as shocking and outrageous as the few I named.

People shouldn't be any more outraged by this than by finding out that Jack Bauer is really a part played by Kiefer Sutherland and he has a body double doing some of his parts too.


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## Big Don (Jan 11, 2008)

crushing said:


> If you are being serious.
> 
> I don't see why it would generate outrage and it really isn't ironic.  It's just a show.  People have become 'other' people on stage for years and have used all sorts of tricks and techniques to put on a show and keep a show moving.  Just ask Vincent Furnier, Dee Snider, Brian Warner, and a host of others, many not as shocking and outrageous as the few I named.
> 
> People shouldn't be any more outraged by this than by finding out that Jack Bauer is really a part played by Kiefer Sutherland and he has a body double doing some of his parts too.


Don't forget the Brady's, they were on tour too...


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## michaeledward (Jan 11, 2008)

crushing said:


> If you are being serious.
> 
> I don't see why it would generate outrage and it really isn't ironic. It's just a show. People have become 'other' people on stage for years and have used all sorts of tricks and techniques to put on a show and keep a show moving. Just ask Vincent Furnier, Dee Snider, Brian Warner, and a host of others, many not as shocking and outrageous as the few I named.
> 
> People shouldn't be any more outraged by this than by finding out that Jack Bauer is really a part played by Kiefer Sutherland and he has a body double doing some of his parts too.


 

I am being serious. 

There is a stir in the world because someone wrote an essay that wasn't genuine, to be able to see a show. 

And then the performer in that show, a make believe character in the first place, has to have a stand-in to play the make believe character.

I think it makes that outrage about the disingenuiness of the essay even more petty.


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## diamondbar1971 (Jan 12, 2008)

I agree, does the phrase "Looking through a glass darkly" apply here and look at what the mother has taught her daughter, not to mention the millions of other kids out there that are asking their parents, why didn't we do that, etc.


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## Kacey (Jan 12, 2008)

michaeledward said:


> I am being serious.
> 
> There is a stir in the world because someone wrote an essay that wasn't genuine, to be able to see a show.
> 
> ...



I don't.  Having a body double for the short time needed to make a costume change is a standard show business method to keep the show moving along; unlike, say, Milli Vanilli, no actual deception about the artist's abilities are being made - just a stage trick to facilitate a costume change.  I fail to see how that is equivalent to a parent encouraging (and given the age of the child, facilitating) a child to lie about a parent's death in war to win concert tickets.


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## Cruentus (Jan 12, 2008)

michaeledward said:


> I am being serious.
> 
> There is a stir in the world because someone wrote an essay that wasn't genuine, to be able to see a show.
> 
> ...



Well, some people value integrity, and some people don't value it as much. Those of us who value integrity are offended by the notion, nature, and degree of the dishonest essay, and are not offended by a show that isn't violating any integrity rules, as we would expect some artistic leeway there.

Those of us who don't know what integrity is or don't value it as highly would think that both the essay and the show is the same type of thing, with both being equally disingenuine...


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## michaeledward (Jan 12, 2008)

Well, as long as everybody agrees that we are talking of "situational ethics".

Deception is wrong if a little girl does it.

Deception is not wrong if Walt Disney Corporation does it.


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## Kacey (Jan 12, 2008)

michaeledward said:


> Well, as long as everybody agrees that we are talking of "situational ethics".
> 
> Deception is wrong if a little girl does it.
> 
> Deception is not wrong if Walt Disney Corporation does it.



I don't believe that's what I said, and it's certainly not what I meant.  Deception is wrong if it's meant for material gain; deception is not wrong if it's meant for entertainment - else magicians would have no audiences.  

Many people enjoy being deceived when they know it's happening; they become challenged by attempting to uncover the deception - again, many people are fascinated by stage magic and sleight of hand.  People do not enjoy being deceived, however, when there is a cost (or loss of potential benefit) - thus, people enjoy sleight of hand on stage, but not when it's used by a pickpocket.


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## Cruentus (Jan 12, 2008)

michaeledward said:


> Well, as long as everybody agrees that we are talking of "situational ethics".
> 
> Deception is wrong if a little girl does it.
> 
> Deception is not wrong if Walt Disney Corporation does it.



I see. So this has nothing to do with anything else but the fact that you seek an opportunity to slam a corporation that you don't like. Now I got it.


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## Cruentus (Jan 12, 2008)

Kacey said:


> I don't believe that's what I said, and it's certainly not what I meant.  Deception is wrong if it's meant for material gain; deception is not wrong if it's meant for entertainment - else magicians would have no audiences.
> 
> Many people enjoy being deceived when they know it's happening; they become challenged by attempting to uncover the deception - again, many people are fascinated by stage magic and sleight of hand.  People do not enjoy being deceived, however, when there is a cost (or loss of potential benefit) - thus, people enjoy sleight of hand on stage, but not when it's used by a pickpocket.



Kacey; you don't need to justify your statements in my opinion. You understand the difference between a trick and being lied too. You also know that the difference is what is behind the act, not the act itself. A magic show has integrity even though trickery is involved; where as a cheating card dealer has no integrity. And so on. A show with artistic leeway used to put on a good performance has integrity. An essay that lies and disrespects fallen soldiers to win a contest has no integrity.

Unfortunatily, not all of us care about integrity, and therefore some might not see the difference between a trick and being lied too. Or worse, some are willing to overlook the difference in order make a statement or a point. Well, that is unfortunate, as the person who either sees no difference , or wants you to think there is no difference between a pickpocket and a street magician or a disrespectfully honest essay and a stage performance is not someone anyone should trust. Ever...

I am just glad that you or I are not like that.


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## michaeledward (Jan 12, 2008)

Cruentus said:


> I see. So this has nothing to do with anything else but the fact that you seek an opportunity to slam a corporation that you don't like. Now I got it.


 
Actually, I like Disney. 

We went to the Orlando Disney Mecca when we were married. And we returned last year.

Please feel free to continue to make suppositions about my attitudes and beliefs, and spread those suppositions as you wish.


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## michaeledward (Jan 12, 2008)

Kacey said:


> I don't believe that's what I said, and it's certainly not what I meant. Deception is wrong if it's meant for material gain; deception is not wrong if it's meant for entertainment - else magicians would have no audiences.
> 
> Many people enjoy being deceived when they know it's happening; they become challenged by attempting to uncover the deception - again, many people are fascinated by stage magic and sleight of hand. People do not enjoy being deceived, however, when there is a cost (or loss of potential benefit) - thus, people enjoy sleight of hand on stage, but not when it's used by a pickpocket.


 
Kacey, I believe you. I am certain your meaning is not what it appears to be. But, I don't know that the body double is quite the same as a magic trick. 

I once paid for some tickets to see a revival of Jesus Christ Superstar. The billing included Irene Cara and Dennis DeYoung of Styx. When we were seated at the show (UMass Amherst), both Ms. Cara and Mr. DeYoung were no shows. I was quite upset, because I was led to believe I would be seeing these two actors on stage. I apprecaite the need for understudies, but when both headliners are no shows; something stinks. 

In this instance, it is not that the headliner is a 'no show', but instead needs to attended to business offstage. This does not require a 'body double'; it gives the appearance that Ms. Cyrus can dance, in a place and time when people are not expecting to be fooled. 

I have seen Stevie Nicks in concert a couple of times. Now there is a performer who has some costume changes (and an old coke habit) that needed to be attended too of-stage. Never did she use a body double. If she was off stage for a couple of minutes, the band vamped and everything was OK. 

The deception is wrong. Is it a big deal? Of course not. But, I don't think it was a big deal that the essay was fiction either. 

I think what had people up in arms, is that the fiction included a United States soldier dying. I think the essay raises some uncomfortable questions about soldiers dying; questions many of us would rather not face. I think those who were most outraged by the essay are cut from the same cloth as those who told me, when I vigorously opposed the invasion of Iraq, that I should leave the country or that I was a Nazi Sympathizer. 

It appears that it is still taboo to question the military in any way. 


P.S. Incidentally, I think the mother encouraging the girl to win at all costs is poor sportsmanship if you will. But, it is also the American way.


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## jks9199 (Jan 12, 2008)

michaeledward said:


> Well, as long as everybody agrees that we are talking of "situational ethics".
> 
> Deception is wrong if a little girl does it.
> 
> Deception is not wrong if Walt Disney Corporation does it.


Explain what is so heinous about the stage-show using a slight deception to maintain the show while allowing the next scene to be set.  The "true" performer is on stage, sings, leaves the stage while someone else dances, then returns to sing some more.  For a moment or three, a different person is dancing -- but the audience gets to see the "true" artist before & after.  (I wonder what your take on some of the other kid-aimed shows around, where they use completely different casts in the costumes on the road show compared to the tv show that inspired it, is...)

Compare this to "winning" the prize with an outright fabrication, with no apparent basis in truth.  On top of which, a fabrication that claims a status & respect that is unmerited.

I think there's a pretty major difference between the two.


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## michaeledward (Jan 12, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Explain what is so heinous about the stage-show using a slight deception to maintain the show while allowing the next scene to be set. The "true" performer is on stage, sings, leaves the stage while someone else dances, then returns to sing some more. For a moment or three, a different person is dancing -- but the audience gets to see the "true" artist before & after. (I wonder what your take on some of the other kid-aimed shows around, where they use completely different casts in the costumes on the road show compared to the tv show that inspired it, is...)
> 
> Compare this to "winning" the prize with an outright fabrication, with no apparent basis in truth. On top of which, a fabrication that claims a status & respect that is unmerited.
> 
> I think there's a pretty major difference between the two.


 
jks9199 ... let us first recognize that the outrage is not about the 'winning' but the 'entering' ... the person who created an essay had absolutely no input on which essay was chosen as the winning essay. I have already voiced my opinion about the nature of the publicity Club Libby Lu judges were hoping to garner from the selection of the essay in question. But, neither the mother, nor the child, acted as judges to select the winning essay. 


I don't understand the difference that you cite. To me, they are both deceptions. One significant difference is that the producers of the Hannah Montana stage show are perpetrating their deception on thousands of paying patrons. Whereas, the author of the essay, was hoping only to deceive a panel of judges. (That is if the rules required the work to be non-fiction; to date, I don't believe it has been shown that the essay had to be first person factual.).


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## jks9199 (Jan 12, 2008)

michaeledward said:


> jks9199 ... let us first recognize that the outrage is not about the 'winning' but the 'entering' ... the person who created an essay had absolutely no input on which essay was chosen as the winning essay. I have already voiced my opinion about the nature of the publicity Club Libby Lu judges were hoping to garner from the selection of the essay in question. But, neither the mother, nor the child, acted as judges to select the winning essay.
> 
> 
> I don't understand the difference that you cite. To me, they are both deceptions. One significant difference is that the producers of the Hannah Montana stage show are perpetrating their deception on thousands of paying patrons. Whereas, the author of the essay, was hoping only to deceive a panel of judges. (That is if the rules required the work to be non-fiction; to date, I don't believe it has been shown that the essay had to be first person factual.).


I do believe that a "tell us why you should win" contest does carry the implication that the entries should be truthful...  

With that said...  I guess you're just a joy to be around, since you apparently brook no untruth, and tolerate nothing less than absolute honesty.  Pity the person who asks you "how do I look"...

You're upset over a few moments in a stage show -- and you're not alone (or there'd be no story.)  Personally, I expect a certain amount of deception or stagemanship in a stage performance.  For example, I'm under no illusion that some of the dances that pop singers do today can be done while singing...  I know they must be lipsyncing at least for some of the dance sections.  I just don't see something like that -- when the vast majority of the show is, to every indication, what it's advertised as being is nearly the same thing.  

Now -- going to see a stage show, and finding that the advertised stars are both unavailable...  That would piss me off.  I could handle ONE of them -- but not when it's two big names, and they're both out.  That's a point where I feel a respectable stage would offer a credit of some sort...


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## michaeledward (Jan 12, 2008)

You got to love the dicohtomy of opinion here on MartialTalk. 

In the last half-dozen posts, or so, a couple of interesting comments seemed to be made about me. 



			
				jks9199 said:
			
		

> I guess you're just a joy to be around, since you apparently brook no untruth, and tolerate nothing less than absolute honesty.


 
And



			
				Cruentus said:
			
		

> not all of us care about integrity, and therefore some might not see the difference between a trick and being lied too. Or worse, some are willing to overlook the difference in order make a statement or a point.


 
To be honest, it is not specifically spelled out that Cruentus was talking about me, although that does seem to be strongly implied. 

In one statement, I am honest to the point of pain. In the other, I am petty an willing to be dishonest to make a point. It is hard to imagine that both posters seem to be refering to the same person. 


For many years, I was a paid performer. I think it is sad that audiences have come to accept the lip-synched performances; and all that goes along with that.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 12, 2008)

michaeledward said:


> For many years, I was a paid performer.


 
Clown?


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## Cruentus (Jan 13, 2008)

Incidentally, I think that jks was being sarcastic.... back the the regularly scheduled discussion....


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## Big Don (Jan 13, 2008)

No sane person can equate an actress doing what actresses do to what the mother and child did in this case. 
Everyone knows Hannah Montana isn't real, that is half of the show...


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 13, 2008)

Gents, enough with the personal cracks. It grows tiring seeing it in almost ever thread involving certain mixes of individuals. Debate and discuss all you want, but enough is enough.


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## Cruentus (Jan 13, 2008)

michaeledward said:


> To be honest, it is not specifically spelled out that Cruentus was talking about me, although that does seem to be strongly implied.



I don't want to make inferences about you as a person or your opinions. But I can make inferences about certain lines of thinking; if you fit that line of thinking or not is up to you to decide and explain if you wish.

My observation is that people who can't ethically seperate one act from another where there is a clear ethical seperation are morally bankrupt people, and need to re-evaluate themselves.

Here are some examples of what I am talking about: 

_Someone who lies in advertising to sell products, and simply says, "Well, people want to buy into lies all the time. Look at all the people who pay to see psychics and spiritual advisor's. Like them, I am using a little creative expression to make people feel better about themselves when they buy my product, and what is wrong with that?" 

Someone who steals peoples money by claiming via e-mail to be a wealthy businessman who just needs some personal information to wire transfer money into an account, of which the recipient will be rewarded 10%. After working on these people and stealing identities and thousands, saying, "Well, it's not like I am breaking into their homes and holding them up at gunpoint. They volunteered this information, were dumb enough to participate, and deserve to learn a lesson and lose their money"

Someone who says, "I don't agree with violence, but I can sympathize with Muslim's wanting to run planes into buildings, or do terrorist acts on us because we send our military into other countries, and we arrange trade to benefit us, and therefore we are just as bad as they are, if not worse. How else are they supposed to fight back? As long as we continue our foreign policy, we deserve to have terrorist acts against us.."_

Now, the above examples are not outragous; it is a synopsis of the corrupt logic we have all seen in different circumstances.

The problem is, the people making those arguments see (or want us to believe) that there is no ethical separation between different acts that clearly should be separated, and therefore one act is justifiable given the other. There is a clear difference between going to a psychic and paying for that service, and being lied too on an advertisement or by a salesperson and buying a product based on those lies. To a person who doesn't live in an ethical gray area where anything could be justified, the separation between these acts is very apparent. But, for a person who is himself morally bankrupt will not see (or will not want others to see) the differences. The morally bankrupt person does not see these ethical differences, and therefore would be the type of person who would sympathize with the terrorists, or lie and deceive, or support the liar and deceiver to suit an end, because they see that all these acts stand on the same ethical grounds.

Such a person is morally corrupt, and needs to re-evaluate himself. And, such a person cannot be trusted.

As this applies here, to think that artistic leeway taken on a stage show and lying and saying your father dies in Iraq to win an essay contest is on the same ethical level demonstrates the same level of moral corruption as any of the examples above.

Luckily, it is good to see that most people understand integrity, and are rightfully offended by the essay, and don't think that it sits on the same ethical playing field as a stage show...


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## crushing (Jan 13, 2008)

michaeledward said:


> Actually, I like Disney.
> 
> We went to the Orlando Disney Mecca when we were married. And we returned last year.


 

More Disney deception along the Hannah Montana character line.  The Mickey Mouse you may have seen on the Disney property is not only not really a mouse, but is a part played by more than one person.

If I were to engage in suppositions about people's belief and attitudes, I doubt many people are really outraged about these so-called deceptions.


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