# Where do we draw the line?



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 11, 2005)

For starters, I believe every Bujinkan member goes through a certain phase of development in which he or she becomes less and less naive. Usually, this begins with the realization of the fact that one can simply forget about putting on wrist locks on someone who doesn't want that without a little "persuasion".
I already know that everything I do can be countered with the right type of movement and timing, and no one has to prove to me that that is or isn't true - because I know it's true. Realistically speaking, there's always something that can be done, but that doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want to whenever.

One of the things I really hate at times about the Bujinkan is that you have virtually no guarantee whatsoever that the person you're training with has the same attitude towards training as yourself. Something really annoying I encountered while in Japan is that people can be very arbitrary in their ways of hitting you. Let's say I was doing a tengu dori style takedown, or if I'd just put a knee in someone's groin while elbowing his throat - I could always count on being hit in the ribs the moment after.
Sure, I'll take a hit to the ribs any time if I get to elbow the person hitting me in the throat or snap his neck beforehand - it's just so goddamn _pointless._ Has everyone forgotten what can happen when you get hit?

It's things like these that keep people from training with anyone from outside their dojo when at seminars. And that's a real shame, since there is much to learn out there. I know that adaptation and improvisation is essential, but at times, the resistance encountered is so strong that the only way around it would cause serious damage. I'm so ****ing tired of people who tense their arms if you stand still for half a second too long before completing your seioi nage, for instance...have they really forgotten that there won't be time for them to do that IRL? If it's shinken gata type training where the timing has to be exact, that's one thing, but that also means it's up to the instructor to decide beforehand. One of the basic premises for learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is that if you want to be able to do something quickly and correctly, you start with doing it slowly and correctly. Until you know it, that is.

I always thought excessive countering of techniques was beneath me - until today.

I was practicing a type of defense against a horizontal knee strike with another guy, a green belt who's been with us for about a year but has far less mat time than pretty much anyone else who came to us at the same time as he did. He's known for constantly tensing up, and I can accept that if beginners do it unintentionally (because THAT'S an interesting thing to deal with), but this time I could really tell that he did it for the sole purpose of messing up whatever it was I was trying to do. I noticed his arm was as tense as if he was holding on to something to save his life, which prevented me from setting up the technique we were practicing at the moment. Before I even had time to think it over, I hit him square in the jaw with a clenched fist.

It was nowhere near as powerful as it would have been for real, let alone hard enough to knock him to the ground, but given the repercussion I experienced courtesy of out mutual instructor for the day, that could very well have been the case. Indeed, the guy I hit took it much better than my instructor or myself.
When I finally had time to think the ordeal through, I realized that the resistance he offered was the same type as I encountered when I got into an altercation with a guy on new year's eve, which provoked pretty much the same reaction (no injuries on his or my part, though, but that's a different story). I understood that I had somehow "programmed" myself into responding with dakentai as soon as I encountered excessive tension and/or resistance, to "soften up" the guy I was dealing with. However, that seems to have worked a bit too well. I honestly didn't know what I was doing until I had done it. I have now decided to take a break from training for about a month, to calm myself down and ensure this doesn't happen again.

I left the dojo angered, both at myself for over-reacting and at the fact that there is no guarantee in the Bujinkan that the training resistance isn't too soft or too excessive. My question is therefore: where do we draw the line between being a good uke and behaving exactly like the "average Edited to conform to MT's Rules and Policies" we are most likely to encounter IRL? Especially when dealing with beginners, how many don't you think have quit their training due to lost faith in the system when they realized that there are things that cannot be done under certain circumstances? And everyone, please, take the "to spar or not to spar" discussion elsewhere for the time being.

All right, I'm off the soapbox. :soapbox:


----------



## Koinu (Jan 11, 2005)

The line between being a good Uke and a bad one is a fine one. The trouble is in the fact that many people only see the doing of a tec (tori) to someone as the real training. Learning how the tec feels when done to you as a good Uke is a major part of the training that some people just don't get. The instructors teach in a certain manner for a reason , we may not see that reason , so should do the tec as instructed. If someone wants to try to resist or throw in strikes other than what has been show by the instructor they should ask thier training partner if they can try this or that after doing the tec a few times as shown by the instructor.
My pet hate is those that don't try and hit you when training I think they are worse than a resisting Uke IMHO. I have trained with my fair share of resisting Uke's and have learned that this also is an good lesson because you will find people in a real fight that will resist but you will never find someone in a real fight that is not trying to hit you for real. I deal with resisting Uke's in much the same manner as you did if it go's beyond a reasonable level, or I just change the tec and reverse it to flow with the resistance.
I don't think you have done any thing wrong in your actions , and I don't see why your instructor made such an issue out of it as you taugh your partner a good lesson. I did very much the same to and Uke that was well know for resisting and throwing punches that were not there, He threw a punch at me once to often and at full speed and my elbow smacked him in the jaw before I knew I had even used it. He hit me but he was the one on the floor, he got up and said " I won't do that again" I said you should not have done it in the first place. People often say OH I could of hit you , My normal answer is yes you could have BUT AT WHAT COST.
Don't think to hashly of yourself and don't stop training you did nothing wrong and no one was hurt except thier pride and Ego. Gambatte


----------



## Blind (Jan 11, 2005)

I agree. Don't worry about it. In my experience beginners tend to unconsciously resist what they know is coming, often I think it comes from a need to know it works, and if you are a much higher rank it seems they assign you superman ability and assume you can make it work anytime. To me it sounds like you effectively demonstrated that nothing is set and if you do find resistance or cannot complete a method for whatever reason then you change. To my mind it is good for his learning and you made a good point, as long as they don't take it in training you should just do what you like because it is easier then it is fine IMO.

As for training partners you don't know, I guess the best you can do is look at it as a lesson in character assessment, unfortunately we can't always pick who we train with, what I try and do is feel out their personality and guess what type of attacks they will make and what their attitude is. We all strike out sometimes, I find the most annoying type (to go off topic a bit here) is the self appointed teacher. I have run into a few people who take it upon themselves to tell me how I should be training or what I am doing wrong. I am not saying that they were wrong and in many cases they may have been right, however in my opinion unless someone asks a person for advice or designates them as their teacher, they should keep to themselves(during a class at least-I guess I am being hypocritical writing here). 

Anyway it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong and I wouldn't bother with a break, unless you really feel it is necessary.


----------



## Blind (Jan 11, 2005)

My last post was a little off track, in regard to being a robot let them do what they like vs resist everything while trying to keep it real and take into account their strikes and such. I mostly lean towards let them do whatever in a learning environment with people I don't know. At hatsumi senseis class for example he is almost always doing stuff beyond the range of a mere mortal like myself, so I mostly play along and just try and get a feel for what he is on about and hopefully the person I train with allows me the same. Training with people I know well however I start slow and build up to where it starts to come apart then drop it back a bit. That way there is still a reasonable amount of pressure, I don't come apart and freeform it(leading into the sparring there).


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 12, 2005)

Blind said:
			
		

> I find the most annoying type (to go off topic a bit here) is the self appointed teacher. I have run into a few people who take it upon themselves to tell me how I should be training or what I am doing wrong. I am not saying that they were wrong and in many cases they may have been right, however in my opinion unless someone asks a person for advice or designates them as their teacher, they should keep to themselves(during a class at least-I guess I am being hypocritical writing here).


I totally disagree. I appreciate any and all clarification I can get, especially at bigger seminars out of town and so forth. It's so much better than the "nameless, bitter yudansha-ranking budo-snob" you also encounter at times; he's bigger than you, more highly ranked than you, and refuses to give any advice whatsoever when something goes wrong and you don't know why(often, such people have an affinity for avoiding larger training camps, but at the same time tend to attend any and all smaller seminars held by anyone who has recently been to Japan - I guess one could call them a subspecies of the "kata collectors").
As a matter of fact, I had to endure a similar thing with a guy I didn't know before at a seminar roughly a year and three months ago. I always took pride in being capable of doing a good job as an uke, but at this one time he apparently didn't think I was as forthcoming as he'd like, so I received a very similar treatment - an uppercut straight to the jaw which knocked me out cold for a few seconds. When I came to my senses lying on the floor, all he said was something like "you should have been more relaxed".

I absolutely DO NOT want to become such a person no matter what. And as I said before, it's one thing training with people that don't know they're tense because that in my experience has always turned out to be interesting, but it's quite another if someone tenses up just to destroy your ability to do whatever you had in mind for the moment.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 12, 2005)

Blind said:
			
		

> In my experience beginners tend to unconsciously resist what they know is coming, often I think it comes from a need to know it works, and if you are a much higher rank it seems they assign you superman ability and assume you can make it work anytime.


Thing is, we happen to have a head instructor who CAN make it work anytime...


----------



## Dale Seago (Jan 12, 2005)

This "problem of the uncooperative uke" is fairly common in our art. Personally, I feel it's an instructor's job to guide students in "how to be a good uke" for their partners in different stages of training. That also usually means the instructor has to physically show them what he's getting at.

For whatever it's worth, ours is not the only art where this problem crops up.    It's been recently discussed at some length in a Systema (Russian martial art) forum, and you might find it interesting to take a look through the thread: http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=837


----------



## Blind (Jan 12, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I totally disagree. I appreciate any and all clarification I can get, especially at bigger seminars out of town and so forth. It's so much better than the "nameless, bitter yudansha-ranking budo-snob" you also encounter at times; he's bigger than you, more highly ranked than you, and refuses to give any advice whatsoever when something goes wrong and you don't know why(often, such people have an affinity for avoiding larger training camps, but at the same time tend to attend any and all smaller seminars held by anyone who has recently been to Japan - I guess one could call them a subspecies of the "kata collectors").
> As a matter of fact, I had to endure a similar thing with a guy I didn't know before at a seminar roughly a year and three months ago. I always took pride in being capable of doing a good job as an uke, but at this one time he apparently didn't think I was as forthcoming as he'd like, so I received a very similar treatment - an uppercut straight to the jaw which knocked me out cold for a few seconds. When I came to my senses lying on the floor, all he said was something like "you should have been more relaxed".
> 
> I absolutely DO NOT want to become such a person no matter what. And as I said before, it's one thing training with people that don't know they're tense because that in my experience has always turned out to be interesting, but it's quite another if someone tenses up just to destroy your ability to do whatever you had in mind for the moment.


Well that sounds a bit extreme, each to their own I guess. To my mind if someone wants to know what they are doing wrong and they think you can help then they can ask, in which case to not reply is being one of the people you are talking about, the people I am talking about offering advice unasked I still think should just keep it to themselves, one guy I trained with at a daikomyosai spent so much time teaching me I didn't really get much practise. The interesting thing is he couldn't practise what was being preached. At the end of the day I am more than happy to give my advice if someone asks, but to comment on a persons training who you don't really even know seems pretty arrogant to me.


----------



## Don Roley (Jan 13, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> It's so much better than the "nameless, bitter yudansha-ranking budo-snob" you also encounter at times; he's bigger than you, more highly ranked than you, and refuses to give any advice whatsoever when something goes wrong and you don't know why.



I don't think that Blind was talking about those types. I too like to get advice from someone who is clearly my superior in the art. That is why I go to class.

However, _almost every last time_ I have seen someone jump in eagerly to correct a person they don't know at training it is a case of trying to be the alpha male of the dojo. Behind their words of advice and correction is the underlying message that they are better than the one they are giving advice to. And sometimes they don't have a clue themselves. Gee, do you think there is a relationship between their wanting to teach other people and their inability to listen to what the teacher says?  :idunno: 

I see that type of nonsense all the time. One person tries to dominate the other during their time together in training. It gets so bad sometimes that I try to stick to people that I know. One case I know of had one guy (whom we all make fun of in Japan) walking by two guys and telling the two of them that one of them really could learn a lot from the other. Translated into normal speak that means, "I know more than either of you and don't you forget it. That is why I can tell which of you should be teaching- because I sit on a level way above and can see down to yours."

And these dominance games can take the form of trying to foul up the other guys technique while he is doing it. If you know what is coming, you can make damn sure that it cannot go through as intended. You set yourself up for something else, but it forces the other guy to not do the technique and the idiot sits back in contentment knowing that the other guy can't make the technique work as demonstrated.

One time I was working out with an idiot who is called "Tuvak" behind his back. It was basic musha dori. But when I went to do it, Tuvak released the grab on my keikogi just as my hand was starting to slip over his arm and his whole arm just started to get pushed away. Without hesitation (because the big sin in the dojo I go to is sitting there surprised) I got my hand behind his elbow, had the other one grab his wrist and moved into a really nasty seoi nage. I got a compliment for it from my teacher. (Really rare from him.) I let the guy do the technique and then take my turn again and he does the same thing. Obviously, not a mistake. He planned it and I made the seoi nage I did a little more nasty the second time. So I get a little mad at him and the next time Tuvak goes to try musha dori I release at exactly the same time he did. Tuvak freezes and gets a lecture about how he needs to not just do things like a recipe from a cookbook. I know it was petty of me to play his game, but it felt so good to see his look of panic after he tried that type of stuff on me.

Oh yeah, I could vent a lot about these idiots in the Bujinkan. 

Traditionally, the senior student or teacher was the uke for the techniques. Thus the guy fouling you up as you try to do them was obvioulsy your senior and these dominance games were not as bad. He was already considered above you and everyone respected that. It was his job to point out mistakes. I am sure there are and were many abuses of the system, but it was a bit different from the nonsense going on now.

This is why I do not try to help people I meet at training unless they have a relationship with me. There is just too many people trying to convince the other that they are superior that I don't want to even appear to be that type of person. I have broken this rule only a few times. I do it with friends and expect it in return. I do it with students below me that are showing really bad habits. But it does lead sometimes to people not even trying to do the technique, but engage in almost sparring type stuff.

In fact, I am having problems with one guy right now. He has only been training a few years and I remember when he started with us. He did things like turn his back on my free hand, or concentrate to much on a technique and leaving himself open. So I would touch him and let him know the openings he had. Now he is trying to do the same thing. The difference is that he has _never_ been able to tag me. All he does is distract from what the teacher is trying to show. If I go to the outside of a punch, he tries a spinning back fist every time. I can see it coming from a mile off and have time to go out and get a latte, but still it comes every time and I can't do the thing that the teacher wanted us to do and instead deal with this ineffective attack. I am thinking of hurting him real bad the next time he tries it and pass it off as a training accident. (Oops, so solly! You did something the teacher didn't and I just reacted. Was that your larynx I crushed?) But for now, I usually try to practice with the leacherous kiwi rather than him.

So, rapping up my rant, I think that a senior student should do what he _knows_ needs to be pointed out. If a student is at an equal or lower level, he should not engage in ths type of behavior. Otherwise you get the problems with people trying to jockey for position over another.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 13, 2005)

I have no problem with people pointing out openings, but there are more constructive ways of doing so than suckerpunching without a word of advice. If I was a shihan, though, it would be another matter...


----------



## Mountain Kusa (Jan 13, 2005)

I find that if someone tenses up on me (the intentional tensers)I will do little kyusho things like pinching, or automatic nut protection reflex, touch them on the face around the eyes, etc, or change the technique to one which is not expected. I call it tough love, or learning the hard way, either way it will test their heart.


----------



## Kizaru (Jan 13, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> ... And sometimes they don't have a clue themselves. Gee, do you think there is a relationship between their wanting to teach other people and their inability to listen to what the teacher says? :idunno:
> 
> I do it with students below me that are showing really bad habits. But it does lead sometimes to people not even trying to do the technique, but engage in almost sparring type stuff.


Reminds me of that song from "Sesame Street"...

"One of these kids is not like the other,
One of these kids is doing his own thing...."


----------



## Cryozombie (Jan 14, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> So, rapping up my rant, I think that a senior student should do what he _knows_ needs to be pointed out. If a student is at an equal or lower level, he should not engage in ths type of behavior. Otherwise you get the problems with people trying to jockey for position over another.


 But isnt part of being a good Uke giving feedback...

 "Yeah, the pressure was good there" or "No I didnt feel it, but if you moved it a litte left I would have" etc...


----------



## Kreth (Jan 14, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> But isnt part of being a good Uke giving feedback...
> 
> "Yeah, the pressure was good there" or "No I didnt feel it, but if you moved it a litte left I would have" etc...


Ideally, yes. But a lot of people view being uke as downtime until they get to try the technique again...

Jeff


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 15, 2005)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> I find that if someone tenses up on me (the intentional tensers)I will do little kyusho things like pinching, or automatic nut protection reflex, touch them on the face around the eyes, etc, or change the technique to one which is not expected. I call it tough love, or learning the hard way, either way it will test their heart.


And then they do the same thing as an attempt to protect themselves and counter, and then you re-counter, and then they counter your re-counter etc. ad nauseum, and basically what you've got at the end of it all is an uncomissioned sparring match. 

Either that, or someone does a head takedown of some sort (it kind of amused me at Daikomyosai this year how many of the people being called up to demonstrate a technique did just that, by the way).


----------



## Dale Seago (Jan 15, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Either that, or someone does a head takedown of some sort (it kind of amused me at Daikomyosai this year how many of the people being called up to demonstrate a technique did just that, by the way).



From what I've observed -- both at Daikomyosai and at other classes -- that seems to be a Spanish cultural predilection.   They seem to tend to "default" to that more than anyone else.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 15, 2005)

I had the same problem while training with them, only the other way around...every single time I hit the floor, I received a kick to the head.:wah:


----------



## Don Roley (Jan 16, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I have no problem with people pointing out openings, but there are more constructive ways of doing so than suckerpunching without a word of advice. If I was a shihan, though, it would be another matter...



I am not talking about sucker punching someone. Touching them is usually enough. If someone can tap your forehead, then they could probably gouge your eyes. And if they had a small knife concealed.......

Telling someone that they are open is a nice thing to do. But I still remember the first time a Japanese senior reached up while being thrown in _ganseki nage_ and......touched....me.   It made a heck of a lot more impact than if he had merely told me about how Takamatsu was taken out by a guy from Musashi ryu while he was throwing him. Instead of cupping them, he could have grabbed hold and taken them with him. I knew it. Not just in the head, but through my entire being. It is like the difference between seeing a tall building from below and imagining yourself standing on the edge and actually standing there.

But as I said, this can easily run into some weird and distracting actions. I saw a case of that just yesterday. My partner and me were touching each other when we were open and asking each other what the other thought we could do better. I looked over at two visitors and saw that they were playing a version of _Quien es mas macho_ instead of what the teacher was showing. The techniques for the day were _Koku, Renyo_ and _Danshu._ And they were obviously starting with one of the first two, but they were pretty much ignoring the hand techniques to jump straight to the point where one could catch the other with a strong and fast kick. What they were doing was IMO an insult to the teacher. They should have waited until they were back in their country before they started doing their own thing and instead stayed with what was being taught at the time. But they had their own agenda I guess. I was about to scream at them when their teacher caught their eye and shook his head. I still made a point of not dealing with any of them after class and left before them.

Sorry, I still have a bad taste in my mouth over that. :soapbox:


----------



## Kreth (Jan 16, 2005)

I think it all comes down to how well you know your training partner. If I'm training with someone I don't know well, I'll probably only make a comment or touch them to illustrate a hole. If it's one of the crew I train with often, then I might throw in a slap or sometimes a reversal. It also depends on where I'm training. I feel a little more freedom to play around with a technique at my home dojo. When at someone else's dojo, or especially in Japan, I do my best to stick to what's being shown.
On the flip side of the coin, there's nothing I hate more than a ragdoll uke. I want feedback from my training partner, not someone who will take a dive every time I do the technique.

Jeff


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 16, 2005)

When performed by someone without a good understanding of kihon (or for that matter, whenever they are regarded as _techniques_ and thereafter deployed in actual combat), a lot of things coming out of Japan these days would be pretty easy to counter. All of it assumes that you understand kamae, distancing etc. correctly to begin with. Since, like I said before, there is no "quality" guarantee in the Bujinkan, when training at seminars or in Japan I personally would say it would be appropriate to be a little more forgiving than in regular training.


----------



## Kizaru (Jan 18, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> My partner and me were touching each other


You and your "partner" were "touching" each other? Where were you training, San Francisco?



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> I looked over at two visitors and saw that they were playing a version of _Quien es mas macho_ instead of what the teacher was showing. The techniques for the day were _Koku, Renyo_ and _Danshu._ And they were obviously starting with one of the first two, but they were pretty much ignoring the hand techniques to jump straight to the point where one could catch the other with a strong and fast kick. What they were doing was IMO an insult to the teacher.


Everyone comes to trainig for different reasons. I'm sure experienced teachers are accustomed to people with different motivations coming in through the door, and invest their time in each accordingly.
:asian:


----------



## Mountain Kusa (Jan 18, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> You and your "partner" were "touching" each other? Where were you training, San Francisco?
> 
> :asian:


Sir, you are way out of line here. In the last several threads I have read you always seem to be sniping someone, or making derogatory remarks. When I find an opening with my own students I tap their face or something to let them know there was an opening. Sometimes I will throw them when they either dont take balance or when they give me mine back. Either way it is good and respectfull training. 

 I make a motion that this individual be permanently banned.


----------



## MJS (Jan 18, 2005)

There are a few different options on MT that one can use if they are having a problem with a member.

1- PM

2- Email

3- Ignore

4- RTM

Please keep the discussion on a friendly and respectful level.

Mike


----------



## Floating Egg (Jan 18, 2005)

My way of dealing with these situations is through empathy. I try to observe what they're doing and why they're doing it. Sometimes, I may not agree with their motivations, but I think I can learn something from everyone, regardless of what their intentions are. 

At the end of the day, I'm not annoyed because I know that I've made the best of what some people might see as a negative situation. I'm also confident that I'm the only one responsible for my anger and frustration.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jan 18, 2005)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Sir, you are way out of line here. In the last several threads I have read you always seem to be sniping someone, or making derogatory remarks. When I find an opening with my own students I tap their face or something to let them know there was an opening. Sometimes I will throw them when they either dont take balance or when they give me mine back. Either way it is good and respectfull training.
> 
> I make a motion that this individual be permanently banned.


 Kizaru has his own "Special" relationship with some of the posters here... as such he may say some werid things when he posts to them that the general public doesnt get.   We tend to shake our heads at him when he does.  

 But, As MJS suggested, you can use the Ignore feature at the bottom of his profile to hide his posts, or if you find a problem with anyone's post use the Report to moderator functiont at the Top right hanb corner of the  post in question.

 :asian:


----------



## Don Roley (Jan 18, 2005)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Sir, you are way out of line here. In the last several threads I have read you always seem to be sniping someone, or making derogatory remarks.



Well in this case, Kizaru was my training partner for the session I was talking about. The most resentment I have for the post where he teases me about "touching" my training partner is that I nearly ruined a keyboard with my morning coffee I was laughing so hard. I nearly wrote about how my partner was moaning and seemed to be enjoying himself the harder I hit him just to toss the zinger back.

But I remembered that it was not only him and I reading these boards. That seems to be something he forgot.


----------



## Mountain Kusa (Jan 18, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Well in this case, Kizaru was my training partner for the session I was talking about. The most resentment I have for the post where he teases me about "touching" my training partner is that I nearly ruined a keyboard with my morning coffee I was laughing so hard. I nearly wrote about how my partner was moaning and seemed to be enjoying himself the harder I hit him just to toss the zinger back.
> 
> But I remembered that it was not only him and I reading these boards. That seems to be something he forgot.


I would probably be able to type better if i didnt have my foot in my mouth, I understand now and retract my statement. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to clarify this.:whip:  I just have to laugh now! It is funny


----------



## Kizaru (Jan 18, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Kizaru has his own "Special" relationship with some of the posters here...


Woo Hoo!



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> We tend to shake our heads at him when he does.


I like to keep things shakin'...



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> But, As MJS suggested, you can use the Ignore feature at the bottom of his profile to hide his posts,


"Ignore_ - _ance is Bliss"



			
				Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> I would probably be able to type better if i didnt have my foot in my mouth,


I know the feeling...I usually type all of my posts with my tongue, so if I've got anything in my mouth like a Reese's Peanut Buttercup, my foot or someone else's fist, it tends to make typing more complicated...



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> ...he teases me about "touching" my training partner ...my partner was moaning and seemed to be enjoying himself the harder I hit him ....


Bad Touch! BAD TOUCH!!!



			
				Donny Shihan said:
			
		

> But I remembered that it was not only him and I reading these boards.


That's right! "Hot Pants" and "Panda" read them too!!!


----------



## Dale Seago (Jan 18, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> That's right! "Hot Pants" and "Panda" read them too!!!



So do we skirt-wearers in San Francisco. And now that I think of it, Don's been known to wear one on occasion himself.   :uhyeah:


----------



## Kreth (Jan 18, 2005)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> So do we skirt-wearers in San Francisco. And now that I think of it, Don's been known to wear one on occasion himself.   :uhyeah:


The difference being that Don wears his in Roppongi while trying to pick up sailors...   

Jeff


----------



## Don Roley (Jan 19, 2005)

Kreth said:
			
		

> The difference being that Don wears his in Roppongi while trying to pick up sailors...



Let me make this damn clear for all of you morons.....


*I do not try to pick up sailors in Roppongi!!!!!!!* 

I have to go all the way to _Yokohama_ to find guys off the ship.

_Ohayo Gozaimasu_ everyone. I hope your morning coffee glistens gently as it drips from your keyboard and monitor.  :2xBird2:


----------



## Cryozombie (Jan 19, 2005)

Arite.  We have had our fun, can we bring the thread back on topic now?


----------



## Kizaru (Jan 19, 2005)

How do you keep you and your uke training on the topic at hand? Stop the distraction before it starts.

If you walk into a dojo or seminar that has alot of unfamiliar people, "interview" them; the same way people "interview" each other before a fight, mugging, or assault, but maybe in a more subtle way. Walk up to people, how do they make you feel? Don't judge a book by it's cover; by what you see, what do your guts tell you? Is this person at training for the same reason as you? Does this person have something to prove? Are they depressed? Excited? etc etc.... Introduce yourself; what do you read from them there? Shake hands; how do you react to contact with them, how do they react to contact with you? Make small talk; what do you read from them in there? Don't brag or otherwise be challenging during the interview in a way that could blossom out into a bigger issue during training. "Interview" a few people...who do you think you'd train with best today? Sometimes this "interview" technique will work, sometimes it won't, but I've felt I've learned alot even from the people who "fooled me" during the interview process. Also, if you have some kind of relationship with someone, no matter how shallow, it makes it easier to say, "hey let's stay on topic with what the teacher is doing" or give other constructive feedback rather than if you were two total strangers or the unknown new guy in the ninja school trying to prove himself to the veteran students and the teacher.

Being able to gather information in a subtle way about your environment and the people in it has a wide range of applications. In my own life, I've found that this "interview" skill I'm developing has taught me as much about others as it's taught me about how I interact with the world around me. 
:asian:


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 20, 2005)

That's probably fine and dandy as long as you don't show up a bit late, as well as in Japan, where you rarely if ever are told to switch training partners by the instructor...


----------



## DWeidman (Jan 21, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> ... where you rarely if ever are told to switch training partners by the instructor...


What is the general consensus out there about being forced to switch partners?

As a general rule - it annoys the crap out of me.

-Daniel


----------



## Kreth (Jan 21, 2005)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> What is the general consensus out there about being forced to switch partners?


I can see its usefulness as a training tool. I'll often have people switch, especially beginners. Otherwise, you'll see them train with the same person week after week. IMO, you should train with as many different people, and as many different body types as possible.

Jeff


----------



## Don Roley (Jan 21, 2005)

A certain instructor in Japan does what I call the "idiot drill." I have noticed that when there is someone acting  like an idiot with his partner, the shihan has us switch partners several times a night. It means more people have to put up with the guy for about ten minutes, but no one has to endure him for more than ten minutes.

And I think I should point out that the very idea of resisting a technique, or trying to make a technique work against a resisting opponent, is one I am opposed to and I think it is wrong.

I am not talking about acting like a Ron Duncan uke and throw yourself over at the merest touch. Nor am I talking about refraining from pointing out mistakes by "touching" them and the like. I am talking about trying to do _oni kudaki_ on someone who knows it is coming and is trying to resist you putting it on. I call it the "oni kudaki or bust" syndrome.

Some people still believe that _kyojitsu tenkan ho_ is about deceiving other people. Not quite. It is a bit more complicated than that. But in any case, in an art that puts a lot into the other guy thinking the wrong thing about you, doesn't it lack common sense to train to do something the other guy obviously knows of and is waiting for? The original post of this thread where Nimravus said he did not try to do the technique that was being resisted and instead punched the guy is an excellent example of combat strategy IMO.

Let me stress this..... If the other guy knows what is coming he can set up a resistance to it. So if he starts to resist, it means he knows what is coming. If you train yourself to double your efforts getting on a technique, you are training yourself to do the expected instead of flow into something the other guy _is not_ expecting. So, by trying to set it up so you have to work really hard to do oni kudaki, your training partner is trying to insall bad habits in you for combat.

I hope I made that clear. It is something I feel strongly about.


----------



## Dale Seago (Jan 21, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> It is something I feel strongly about.



So do I. It's why hearing things like, "Would that work on a resisting opponent?" make me want to tear my hear out and scream. If you're encountering resistance, you need to be doing something different.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 21, 2005)

I still don't see the point of always pointing out when and where you're capable of hitting your training partner. Many times such opportunities wouldn't have appeared if you both moved in "combat speed".


----------



## Don Roley (Jan 21, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Many times such opportunities wouldn't have appeared if you both moved in "combat speed".



And many times they will. I would rather not have even small flaws than to rely on no one being able to take advantage of them.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jan 22, 2005)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> If you're encountering resistance, you need to be doing something different.


  Ha! Yeah!  

 If you try and apply, say Omote, and the guy is ready for it... its not likely work, without really muscleing it... If you apply Omote, WHILE kicking him in the knee, so he is thinking about his knee, not the Omote, the omote will work...

  Is that what you mean?


----------



## Mountain Kusa (Jan 22, 2005)

Sometimes I switch the peole I am training with, and sometimes I dont. If I am training with someone that is condusive to "both" of us learning, good, If not, time to switch. I personally like training with several people as it gives me a wider range of movements and body types to work with. 

As far as classes, there are many reasons I will have peole switch; Ego's start kicking in, I need a more experienced person with someone new, two people are not taking things seriously so I might place them with two more mature or serious people. Sometimes I will place different weapons on the floor and have the people rotate around those weapons applying the principles of whatever we are doing with that weapon at that station.

Last week I handed out several sizes of sticks for hanbojutsu training, Everybody had fun and learned allot from that, and Got a particular good laugh when I pulled out a 1/2" dowel about 12" inches long and stated "oh well I guess this is all that is left for me" and stuck it under my belt." I had much fun with that. Size dosn't matter they finally said.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 22, 2005)

For a long time I wondered why it's characteristic of skilled taijutsu players not to stand still for very long times. Then I understood why (I think:uhyeah: ).


----------



## Bunkai (Jan 25, 2005)

Nimravus, I believe that the line should've been drawn by your instructor, on your way back into the dojo, after your childish antics.  To strike your uke like that is repugnant, and I am suprised that none of the shihan on this board reprimanded you for this...the dojo is not a place for ego or rage, and you exemplified both.
If I had been on the mat that day, it would not have been pretty.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 25, 2005)

Ooookay, so does that mean you as an instructor that day would have done nothing to solve the issue of the guy intentionally tensing up to sabotage his partner's training? If so, it wouldn't be a pretty sight so see him go to Japan, or any other large Bujinkan gathering...he'd have no problems finding people far less merciful than me there. 

As a side note, I'll never forget the time a guy was lifted by his hair and belt and threwn head first into the wall by our then head instructor for being a jerk to everyone he trained with... :whip:


----------



## Blind (Jan 25, 2005)

Bunkai said:
			
		

> Nimravus, I believe that the line should've been drawn by your instructor, on your way back into the dojo, after your childish antics. To strike your uke like that is repugnant, and I am suprised that none of the shihan on this board reprimanded you for this...the dojo is not a place for ego or rage, and you exemplified both.
> If I had been on the mat that day, it would not have been pretty.


To me it didn't sound like ego or rage, maybe it was frustration but as I said in an earlier post, if no one was hurt and his training partner got the point then it is a good lesson learned. Sometimes even the best of us fall down, and in the last part of your post what are you referring to???Would you have gone over and sorted him out?? Would that not have been you venting your rage at a person who was doing something that you didn't like?? Sounds an aweful lot like your ego is pretty healthy to comment on how pretty things would have been .


----------



## Cryozombie (Jan 25, 2005)

*Mod. Note. 
  Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

  -TECHNOPUNK
  -MT Moderator-*


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 25, 2005)

Blind said:
			
		

> To me it didn't sound like ego or rage, maybe it was frustration but as I said in an earlier post, if no one was hurt and his training partner got the point then it is a good lesson learned.


Thing is, I don't know if he did get the point or not.:idunno:


----------



## Don Roley (Jan 25, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Thing is, I don't know if he did get the point or not.:idunno:



He may not have learned that his ego was controlling him to the extent that he was playing a _quien es mas macho_ game with you by trying to sabotage your training.

He may not have learned that trying to prevent one type of technique opens you up to other types of techniques.

He may not have learned that it is best to do the most appropriate and least expected technique rather than force a move on someone who knows what is coming and is trying to prevent it.

But he probably knows by now that messing with the training partner is not a one way street and he can't do it without consequences in the future.


----------



## Dale Seago (Jan 25, 2005)

Very, very nicely put. Actions do have consequences.

I remember a seminar I taught years ago. . .Bill Atkins came down from the hills to train, and to help out as best he could. There were some non-Booj "jujitsu" folks training in the seminar, who didn't know who Bill was, and at one point Bill was partnered with one of them when the guy tried to get competitive and prove the technique wouldn't work. Which caused him to have to sit out the rest of the seminar with what turned out to be a torn rotator cuff.


----------



## Mighty Atom (Jan 25, 2005)

Training partners as in life outside the dojo will vary.

In your own dojo you have the time and possibility to "pick" your partners to alleviate continually training with an awkward / inexperienced / macho Uke.

We should were possible educate these people and explain that if they dont change that their opportunity to train will diminish as partners will be scarce.

You can point out their :uhyeah: failings by gentle persuasion, light touching or once in  a while a strike to distract.

Except that some people will not learn. If the technique is applied and the waza is complete and uke still taps you as if to say "I had you there" you need to know that this would not be case and uke would have been incapacitated prior to you allowing them to recover.

As long as you know then your training continues. If uke wants to go home and feel he "could of had you" despite your attempts to teach him other wise then its their training that suffers.

Change partners and keep going!!!!!


----------



## Don Roley (Apr 15, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I appreciate any and all clarification I can get, especially at bigger seminars out of town and so forth. It's so much better than the "nameless, bitter yudansha-ranking budo-snob" you also encounter at times; he's bigger than you, more highly ranked than you, and refuses to give any advice whatsoever when something goes wrong and you don't know why.



Old topic, but I remember when I first reading this how it struck a cord. Recent events have caused me to think about it even more.

Just how much do we owe our training partners? That seems to be the question to me.

The last few times I trained with certain teachers I got partnered with visiting green belts. They really did not know anything. I mean one did not even know _gedan uke._ The teacher was doing a variation of it and he just could not pull it off. When I said it was similar to what is in hicho no kamae no kata and the last two san shin movements he just looked at me with a blank look.

And when we picked up a rokushakubo.................

Now, I feel a bit guilty. I started out trying to point out the mistakes that caused them to not be able to do the techniques. But I cut back after a short while. It was taking too much of my time to tell them how to get better and the time I had to train and learn was being severely shortened as a result.

I understand what it is like to not understand what is going on and would like to help. But I was paying just as much money for the training as them and I do not see why I should sacrifice my entire lesson just to help people that should have gotten some more training before they showed up to Japan.

On the other hand, I really try to work out with a certain Japanese senior who will take the time to point out my many mistakes so that I can work on them later. I think I should return the favor to those with less experience than me. I do help out at my regular dojo with the other students, but how much should I give up of my own training for someone who just did not bother to prepare before coming to Japan?


----------



## Shogun (Apr 15, 2005)

> I am talking about trying to do _oni kudaki_ on someone who knows it is coming and is trying to resist you putting it on. I call it the "oni kudaki or bust" syndrome.


 
Ah, I hate that. when training, unless randori, you should be like a freaking noodle. a wet noodle. angel hair or somen style is preferable. usually, as mentioned. there are consequences for acting like an idiot, or trying to resist when someone is trying to learn proper tehcnique. I have asked my instructors before doing what I do and they cleared it, but when someone is being a ***whipe during training, and showing they are good at resisting, I show them I am good at Jiu Jitsu and make em give the floor a couple slaps.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 16, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Ah, I hate that. when training, unless randori, you should be like a freaking noodle. a wet noodle. angel hair or somen style is preferable.


I disagree. It's good to give a slight degree of resistance to work with to make sure the other guy really is twisting his spine and moving his feet. There is a difference between that and striving backwards while the techniques calls for uke to be pushed forward.


----------



## ShaneLayton (Apr 16, 2005)

To me being a good uke is just as important as being tori in any technique. You should give the attack as perfectly as possible ... this is uke's training in my humble and unsolicited opinion. When I am uke I try to give as perfect an attack as possible, and I do not "give" the technique to tori. I don't resist per se, but I do make tori apply the technique properly. He must take my balance, I don't give it away (at least not on purpose  ). 

Uke should not actively resist the technique because he should be concentrating on delivering the proper attack. Anything else just distracts from training, and we only have an hour and a half to two hours to train here. No time for distractions.


----------



## DWeidman (Apr 18, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Ah, I hate that. when training, unless randori, you should be like a freaking noodle. a wet noodle. angel hair or somen style is preferable. usually, as mentioned. there are consequences for acting like an idiot, or trying to resist when someone is trying to learn proper tehcnique. I have asked my instructors before doing what I do and they cleared it, but when someone is being a ***whipe during training, and showing they are good at resisting, I show them I am good at Jiu Jitsu and make em give the floor a couple slaps.


Training with the "noodle" group is a waste of time - as you learn practically nothing from a limp body.

Just act NATURAL - it really isn't that hard.  Being a "noodle" gives the other person a false sense of accomplishment.

-Daniel


----------



## Bigshadow (Apr 18, 2005)

ShaneLayton said:
			
		

> To me being a good uke is just as important as being tori in any technique. You should give the attack as perfectly as possible ... this is uke's training in my humble and unsolicited opinion.


 That is an excellent post.  I firmly believe that half of our training is learning to attack.  As Uke we should train as hard as we do as Tori.  Including not giving any data.

 There are times when the softening techniques are used, but I have often seen them used to "force" a technique, rather than the tori taking control of the kukan and the uke's spine.


----------



## Don Roley (Apr 19, 2005)

I think that the job of the uke is _not_ to give the most realistic attack he can. The attack must be realistic, but that is not the purpose.

The purpose is to give the tori the best example of the chance to use the technique.

The Bujinkan tries to get you to do not the "right" technique, but rather the most _appropriate_ technique. When you see a situation, you should be able to tell the most appropriate response. This comes from training in situations where you have experienced the most appropriate situation to use a particular move. From experience you are able to make that choice without thinking.

If the tori is open, or not doing the move in such a way that would make the move work, then he should be made aware of it. But to make things difficult by adding tension and the like makes the other guy to either do a differnet technique from what the teacher is doing or doing something that is less appropriate than the best.

If it a free response situation and the tori can do whatever he wants, then it does not matter. But if there is a specific technique the teacher wants done, then the uke should work to set up the situation that cries to the tori to do the move.


----------



## Bigshadow (Apr 19, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I think that the job of the uke is _not_ to give the most realistic attack he can. The attack must be realistic, but that is not the purpose.
> 
> But if there is a specific technique the teacher wants done, then the uke should work to set up the situation that cries to the tori to do the move.


 I agree with this too.  Obviously, if the instructor wants the students working on a particular technique, the uke needs to do the appropriate attack to draw out the technique (whatever this means to anyone).  However, the uke needs to do it properly and realistic at the same time (proper kamae, balance, no more data than is necessary, etc.)


----------



## Shogun (Apr 21, 2005)

By saying noodle, I am not saying limp. Noodles have a degree of resistance in them, including rigidness and flexibility. basically, an active posture is necessary. what I disagree with, is when one learns a new technique, and the other person is fighting, and pulling. Its hard to explain but the best way is for the Uke to just maintain a good base. in Aikido, Ukemi is almost more important than being Nage (tori).

I had this jerk 2nd kyu throwing me and smacking my sides when I was trying the technique. I simply asked him if he wanted to fight me oor learn the technique, and that I was very good in the former.


----------



## ShaneLayton (Apr 21, 2005)

Don, 

You said exactly what I was trying to say, only much better. Part of being a good uke is attacking well, and delivering the specified attack as perfectly as possible (just my opinion). The other part is dying well :duel: .

As for resisting or showing Tori's suki, I think that in the beginning, when learning a technique for the first time then Tori should concentrate on the mechanics of the waza. Tori needs to made aware of his suki and how to eliminate or reduce it, of course, and it needs to probably happen within the same lesson. Just not the very first time.


----------



## Kreth (Apr 21, 2005)

I think it depends on who I'm working with. If I'm working with a beginner, I will generally be fairly compliant the first few times, to let them get a feel for the technique, then gradually add resistance as they gain more confidence with what they're doing. With someone more advanced, I will respond normally based on what they're doing. Note that in neither case am I talking about actively fighting their technique, just providing a normal level of resistance.

Jeff


----------



## Shogun (Apr 22, 2005)

I think when learning a technique for the first time, the compliance should be very high. even for experienced guys. then, like you were saying, get more and more resistant. I like the idea of static resistance. basically, you just react to what your tori is doing, but give them something to work with.

No one like playing with a flat football.


----------



## Cryozombie (Apr 22, 2005)

Right?  Like, I am working on the concept of counters now, and the cool thing is, that when I am applying a technique, like say from the Kihon Happo, and the Uke makes it "not work" it really helps me look at where I need to be/what I need to do, in order for the counter not to work against the technique... or how to flow into somthing else, if need be...

So to an extent, if it's benefical to the training, its benefical to the training.

I think, what I am saying, is that sometimes, it has a place.


----------



## Shizen Shigoku (Apr 22, 2005)

If someone is trying to perform a technique on me and I am able to punch them in the face, then I punch them in the face - not hard - but I show them where their holes are.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 23, 2005)

See, this is what I mean. There are ALWAYS several kinds of openings, you can't take advantage of them arbitrarily. And even if there aren't any, that can cause your opponent to get desperate, which makes him even more dangerous.
Also, you often hear people say things like "if you take him to this position, he won't be able to punch you effectively". Well, the problem is, people who participate in violent confrontations tend to be in decent physical shape. This means that you can't count on them needing to use "taijutsu" to land blows that will hurt you.


----------



## Don Roley (Jun 11, 2005)

Ok, time to revisit an old thread based on things that happen in training.

Last night at Ayase I worked out with a visiting student. Nice guy. He made some mistakes that I noticed but did not point out. I know I made some mistakes and found out about them by observing what he was doing when I was an uke.

I think that finding out what I was doing wrong by experiencing them as uke had a lot more impact than if he had told me.

But some of the things I know Hatsumi was showing he never picked up. Maybe there were some things I never picked up.

There have been some comments in this thread about people that never tell you what you are doing wrong while working out with you. I tried to convey what I thought the other guy was doing wrong, but not by words.

I don't know if I did wrong or not. I am still chewing that over in my mind. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I tend to think that people that make a big show of telling you what you are doing wrong are kind of doing it to show that they know more than you. Boy have I seen that time and time again. I just do not want to appear like I am trying the same game on people.

I remember one time I was training years ago in Shiraishi's class with a visiting instructor. He had his students with him. As we went through the drills that were being shown I could tell the guy had no idea _at all_ about _kuzushi._  And anyone who knows Shiraishi knows that he does everything based around an understanding of kuzushi.

I got a little tired of this and stopped him and told him to watch Shiraishi as he demonstrated something and told him to watch for the balance. I pointed it out when Shiraishi stopped in the middle of a throw and told him how it made the move possible and to watch for it at all times.

A few days later I was at Ayase when Hatsumi pauses in the middle of a technique and asks, "why am I able to do this?" The guy I had been training with yells out in glee- "because you have his balance!"

The entire class stops to stare at this guy and I wanted to crawl into a hole. :toilclaw: 

Just another danger of telling your uke too much.

But just how much do we owe a uke and how should we let them know that we can tell they are leaving something out?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 11, 2005)

I did something at a seminar recently that I kind of regret looking back on it now... I trained with this quite big and strong guy (not huge, but bigger than average), who apparently had the habit of pulling his arm back into a semi-chicken wing just before throwing a punch so that his elbow wasn't lined up with his torso. I tried to break it to him easy that he would be able to hit me much harder and less telegraphed if he held his elbow close to his body and used his hips and spine to propel the punch instead of his shoulder muscles, but he just shrugged it off with the explanation that nobody would stand still with an outstretched arm in a real fight anyway. I don't know if it was due to communications difficulties or that I was coming across as a know-it-all, but I decided to not care about it any more and just get on with the training...later, I walked away right in the middle of the training session in question but that didn't have anything to do with the guy I was training with but rather with the person conducting the training...

I'm starting to think that correcting your uke verbally might be more acceptable if his movements are making it needlessly difficult to practice the stuff you're supposed to be practicing, for instance if you're practicing bo versus katana and his attacks aren't actually done at such a range that they would cause damage should they connect.


----------



## Henso (Jun 11, 2005)

I think it is imperative to have the courage to tell/advise another, tactfully, of course, when you observe something that might improve their skill/practice, or via any retort of theirs, learn something new. I think that although we all worry about looking like "know it alls," when we advise others, that it is ultimately counter productive to indulge our culture's politically correct sensibilities, fearing to offend others, while practicing an art that is not only supposed to incalcate real combat skills, but, also to lead to the diminishing of the ego.

For me, the answer seems clear, I cannot both hold onto to the tender sensibilities of a soft and decadent age, and yet learn the skills of a harder more primal time. I would personally request that anyone and everyone who I have the good fortune to train with, feel free to advise me as to their observations and assessments of my practices/abilities, otherwise, I might proceed under an errant assumption that all is well, when it is fact not.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 11, 2005)

I don't think you're going to look at it the same way once you've trained with a large enough number of people.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 23, 2005)

I think we all know that one way or another, no matter how much you try to hide it, your taijutsu reflects your personality. I for one don't like having to make decisions in a snap (even though my training has helped me a lot in this regard) which often means that I stand still in one place for too long periods of time which means I leave myself open for counters if my uke isn't feeling cooperative.

A month or two ago someone asked me if I thought I was a good uke, generally speaking. At the time, I replied that I thought I was, but I realized later that that wasn't really what I had been meaning to say. My definition of a good uke is first and foremost someone who doesn't make it any more or any less difficult for tori than he's told to at the given time. Does anyone disagree?

At the dojo I currently train at (not my regular place), everyone has the habit of countering or fighting back if for instance a lock isn't applied correctly or if there are any obvious openings. And of course, you as a tori get to work on your own improvisation skills to make sure uke doesn't escape just as easy as he'd thought. But that's all right in my opinion, because first of all everybody knows one another, and we all know and agree upon what the rules of the game are from the moment we step onto the mat. The most important point as I see it is that we all refrain from countering what tori's trying to do to such an extent that he's going to have to harm you seriously to stop you.

But what do you say to someone who protects himself so well that the only way around it all would be to hurt him, and whom at the same time tries to defend his actions by saying that he's just trying to be an uke with _awareness_?


----------



## buyuben (Jul 25, 2005)

After training in this for a while, and training with a lot of different people, you should hopefully begin to develop a sense regarding the willingness of your training partner to hear suggestions regarding their ability to 'get' what is being taught. You should also develop the ability to present your advice in a way that does not talk down to your training partner.

One trick I have when the person I am training with does not 'get it' and does not seem to be open to suggestion is to call the instructor over and ask questions regarding the exercise, usually focused on what is not working for my training partner without specifically stating so (that's assuming that I have a grasp on the exercise myself :uhyeah: ). Sometimes they seem to be more willing to listen to the instructor than myself. 

If they still are not willing to take the hint, I use them for the piece of training meat that they are and then find someone else to train with.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 14, 2005)

Ok, time to revamp an old subject...

Something I've noticed recently is that people who are used to having an over-cooperative uke (i.e. someone who goes down on voluntarily without you even having to perform the technique on him correctly) and suddenly are confronted with someone whom at least requires them to DO something in order for him/her to go to the ground, often display one out of two common behavioral patterns.

The first has already been touched on in this thread - attacking the head/neck/throat as a persuasive maneuver to make someone go down. The other, which is not quite as harmless, is to assume that the problem lies with the uke rather than with themselves. In other words, they can't tell the difference between the times when their movements lack one or more critical components required for them to be effective, and those when their uke is simply resisting what they're trying to do. This often results in them "reciprocating" what they believe to be an unreasonable degree of resistance.

This is the reason I've picked up the habit of saying something along the lines of "I lost it there" or "my fault, sorry" whenever I screw up. This softens up the person I'm training with since it shows them that I don't take myself too seriously (unless told to, of course) and also that I at least care about the person I'm training with to such an extent that we both can get the best possible training, and none of us has to walk away feeling like an idiot any more than usually.:asian: 

All right, I'm off the soapbox for now. :soapbox:


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 30, 2005)

New incident from the real world coming up...


Monday night I once again visited another dojo which I am not a permanent member of, which is something I believe strongly that everyone should do whenever the opportunity arises (there is only one person who has the closest equivalent to the "truth" about taijutsu, and he also happens to be a very poor teacher as well as live in another country). Without going into specifics, the training attitude at this particular place is that neither beginners nor advanced students should focus too much on specific technical details, i.e. if you want to elaborate on what the instructor just showed you, that is perfectly acceptable - at least everyone does it and nobody's really complaining openly.
Anyway, after a while I got to train with this guy I had never met before - young, probably about 15 or 16 at the most, with what I estimated as a training time of probably no more than a year. He started out throwing three sequential punches the way the technique we practiced called for, and as soon as I got control of his elbow joint I noticed he was resisting and trying to get up. I didn't think much of it just then, I simply bent my knees to make him go to the ground, and allowed him to roll away afterwards. 
He punched again, I gained control of his arm, and now he was resisting in another direction, a bit more obviously this time. I allowed him to get up again just in time for me to apply an ura oni kudaki henka and take him down into a take ori controlling hold on the ground, after which I said "you feeling anxious about something? No need to dude, chill out". He punches a third time, and this time I hardly got to control his arm before he turned clockwise and tried to hit me with a spinning elbow to the face. Now, I started to realize something was seriously wrong with him. I flinched with my right elbow and speared the triceps of his right attacking arm while simultaneously lightly kneeing the small of his back to break his balance. He then started to fall down but surprised me by managing to catch my neck in the fall. I could have resisted it but instead tried to follow him to the ground to see if I could talk som sense with him there. Ironically, I then found myself following the standard Gracie anti-headlock procedure by grinding my forearm against his carotid to make him release the grip, after which I put my left leg in front of his throat and my right knee at the back of his neck while grabbing the arm to apply - you guessed it - a kimura/reverse hammerlock.

Upon having him under my control, I gave it my last shot at being polite and asked "do we really have to be like this all the time?" 
He responded "it'll be more fun for you that way". Shortly after that, we were given a new technique which was apparently some sort of a koku/renyo henka, in which we were supposed to catch the leg and opposing arm (right leg - left arm) and take him down. Sure enough, partially due to my own sloppiness but also because of his behaviour, he tried to trap my leg with his arm after falling down. I decided that was to be the end of his antics. I therefore went down hard with my right knee on his right thigh just above his knee, put on my best expressionless Wanderlei Silva face and asked "do you want me to do those things as well?" 
"What?" he asked, looking mildly worried for the first time.
"That", I said briskly. Sure enough, he said nothing for a second or two after which we were given a new technique and told to switch partners. He seemed to behave a bit better towards the others after that, though I don't know how permanent that will be.

There are a lot of boundaries you will go over by doing certain things during training, just as there are a lot of messages you send out to others both by means of your actions and by means of your words. People have been known to complain about me that I often look too bored, distant and/or uninterested at times - in actuality, I pretty much never feel that way, it's just that I always practice the use of my peripheral vision as much as possible.

Ponder for a while what hesitance/willingness to go to the ground and continue to work from there will tell your partner about yourself. How will he react to you being tense in any way, how much will he let you experiment with techniques, what is his reaction to sudden moves, how much does he feel it is acceptable to give or receive verbal corrections? Also ask yourself during which circumstances you may apply hip throws or similar things without your partner feeling uncomfortable, how many times you can use a head takedown before your partner starts to think you have poor imagination and/or ability to improvise. When could you pull out a hidden weapon such as a neck/boot training knife, when do you start applying controlling holds after a takedown, and to what extent do you need to demonstrate your ability to control someone?

Somehow I've always felt that it takes some serious _cojones_ to be a good uke to someone you haven't met before, especially if you're visiting a training seminar or a dojo where you haven't been before. Any jerk who received hard slaps to the face by dad between 1982 and 1994 can be a pain in the a** to his training partner. The reason for this is very simple - you don't know what he might do to you, accidentally or intentionally. You don't know if he's one of those guys that makes something come loose in your elbow every time you practice with him. You don't know if his lack of control when wielding a bokken will result in a bloody nose or a black eye for your part.
On the other hand, I spoke about this issue earlier this year with the instructor who coined the term "rock-and-roll kihon happo", in which, as I've said before, the uke attempts to protect himself a little more than usually. He then said to me something along the lines of "well, that's exactly it. If I as an uke am going to play the part of not knowing what tori is going to do to me, of course I am going to defend myself a little more".

This got me thinking. How much are we actually programming ourselves to compliant uke, and how clever is that really in regards to reality? 
I know of some people who constantly b*tch about the fact that the people acting as uke for Hatsumi and the Japanese shihan tend to feed them way too meager and weak attacks, and that that is poor uke training because "you should always be in a position to attack again and again as uke". However, as anyone would know who has experienced instances in which someone has decided to test the Japanese for real, they are more than capable of dealing with whatever you throw at them without raising an eyebrow. The complex part is that the amount of punishment and/or negative reputation you're going to receive is at the very least equal to the amount of violence you dish out against them, which most people who act as uke to them are very well aware of.

Could it really be as simple as this - that it is the instructor's job to specify just how compliant people should be with each other, even at larger seminars?


----------



## Kreth (Nov 30, 2005)

I think you have to take responsibility for your own training. When I'm uke for someone I don't know, I usually start out mostly compliant, unless there's a huge hole in their technique. If it's someone I'm more familiar with, I'll be less so, but never to the extent of the moron you mentioned above.
I also feel that if you give a weak, unrealistic attack when asked to uke while a technique is being demoed for a class, that you're doing a huge disservice to the entire class. You're changing the dynamic of the whole interaction.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 30, 2005)

I just want to clarify one thing - I meant to write "how much do we program ourselves to BE compliant uke".


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 29, 2006)

*nudge nudge* 

I'm thinking of writing a lineup of the most common types of uke one may encounter in the Bujinkan. After reflecting on the issue for quite some time, I think I've been able to identify quite a bit of common denominators. In any traditional martial art you're probably bound to encounter a whole lot of strange individuals. It's as much a part of training as blowing your nose after a session and it coming out black.


----------



## eyebeams (Mar 29, 2006)

I have always preferred the protocol that makes tori responsible for outlining uke's behaviour and level of resistance. This means that tori needs to be honest with him/herself about what s/he wants or needs out of the practice.

I usually warm up with uke providing "single point" resistance. This means that uke is solely concentrating on the energy and sincerity of the intended attack instead of using it as a starting point for dynamic counters. Uke also has an easier job of trying to focus on a sincere, realistic (without the bounds of the movement) attack.

After that, we can escalate to dynamic resistance with no counterattack, dynamic resistance with counterattacks, and, finally, resistance and counterattacks with varying timing (we normally use "even" timing such as go no sen to bring the movement back and forth first) to get the jump in terms of speed and broken rhythm. If you define these expectations and are honest with yourself about which conditions you are ready for, you minimize misunderstanding.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 30, 2006)

I wish I could do what you're describing.


----------



## Tenchijin2 (Mar 31, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> After that, we can escalate to dynamic resistance with no counterattack, dynamic resistance with counterattacks, and, finally, resistance and counterattacks with varying timing (we normally use "even" timing such as go no sen to bring the movement back and forth first) to get the jump in terms of speed and broken rhythm.


 
As an aside... how are you defining go no sen? I've never seen any of the initiatives require an 'even' timing or rhythm.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 24, 2006)

As we all know, it's not very constructive to ask questions along the lines of "but if I do that, what if he kicks/punches/cuts/stabs/shoots/grabs me here like this?*" And instructors who are capable of constructively dealing with so-called what if-monkeys are preciously few. But when I come to think of it, all the people I've ever heard asking those kinds of questions have been men in their late thirties, and early to mid-forties who've just started training. Something to ponder.







*What you should be asking instead if you ask me, is this: "if he can do x to me at this point, what have I done wrong?"


----------



## Rubber Tanto (Jul 26, 2006)

In our dojo, we work on kata first in the traditional sense. And it is up to the tori/uke to decide if they want to add resistance to their training as they progress and become more comfortable with the technique they are working on. I have some "fixed" training partners that I love to train with because they, like me, like to see what happans when the technique is attempted under resistance, at slow speed and at real time.

I find this helps find ways to make a technique work better if it initially fails. Last week was a classic example where during light sparring after class with a fellow student, I manged to apply a genseki effortlessly for the first time to a completely resistant opponent that knew it was coming. It has taken me many attemps to make it work through resistant training, and I don't think I would have been able to had I not been practicing this in a resistant manner.

Anyway, back on topic. At the end of class, we run through what we have learnt under pressure. By having a line of uke attack you, one by one with a random punch/kick/grab and you seeing what comes to mind and executing that technique/s to takedown. It is down slow (say 60% speed) so as it is still a focus on technique. The uke must resist but still understand that their job is to help the tori learn and not to defeat the tori. When I strike is made, they must act accordingly to the strike and not pretend it didnt happen just because it was not full contact.

We do light sparring that is at 50% speed with very light contact also, this is really good at seeing what works when and what doesn't and maintains the taijutsu (so that it doesn't just become a fight). It also teaches us where we may leave potential openings for attack when under pressure.

I hope this was clear.

In a nutshell, I guess I'm saying that I like to learn and understand the mechanics of a technique on a compliant uke, but I feel I getter a better grasp of it after I have tried it on a resistant one under pressure.
~Nick


----------



## chrisa (Oct 10, 2007)

I am new to taijutsu and have only been training in it now for about two months.  My instructor is Luke Molitor of Dallas Tx and is excellent at his instructions, but I wanted to ask.  If you guys wanted to give some advice to the new ukes out there what would it be.  Maybe some of you guys advice will help me to become a better uke to the guys at my dojo.


----------



## Kreth (Oct 10, 2007)

chrisa said:


> I am new to taijutsu and have only been training in it now for about two months. My instructor is Luke Molitor of Dallas Tx and is excellent at his instructions, but I wanted to ask. If you guys wanted to give some advice to the new ukes out there what would it be. Maybe some of you guys advice will help me to become a better uke to the guys at my dojo.


Don't "help" your training partner. If they don't have a lock just right or your balance broken, then don't go down. They'll learn better, and you'll get to work on your ukemi when they do get it right.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 10, 2007)

Kreth said:


> Don't "help" your training partner. If they don't have a lock just right or your balance broken, then don't go down. They'll learn better, and you'll get to work on your ukemi when they do get it right.


 
This definately is sage advice!


----------



## newtothe dark (Oct 10, 2007)

One of the things I find that helps is make sure to change up your UKE for different body sizes big and strong and small faster etc some with longer arms and such lets you 'feel' the movement in use. Just something I like.


----------



## Kreth (Oct 10, 2007)

newtothe dark said:


> One of the things I find that helps is make sure to change up your UKE for different body sizes big and strong and small faster etc some with longer arms and such lets you 'feel' the movement in use. Just something I like.


Good point. A lot of people find one uke they're comfortable with and stick with them.


----------



## Bigshadow (Oct 10, 2007)

newtothe dark said:


> One of the things I find that helps is make sure to change up your UKE for different body sizes big and strong and small faster etc some with longer arms and such lets you 'feel' the movement in use. Just something I like.



Very good point!   I believe this is very important.


----------



## newtothe dark (Oct 10, 2007)

One of the other things i like to do is work with sensitivity and distraction. By this i mean i will train with loud annoying music playing (you know what you hate hehe) calm peaceful training another time. I also like to traing in winter gloves sometimes because we cant control the real world our grip might not be sure we might be at a concert, these things vastly affect how our skills will work so I try in training to cover as many differences. Just a thought I wanted to add hope it helps.


----------



## Bigshadow (Oct 10, 2007)

newtothe dark said:


> One of the other things i like to do is work with sensitivity and distraction. By this i mean i will train with loud annoying music playing (you know what you hate hehe) calm peaceful training another time. I also like to traing in winter gloves sometimes because we cant control the real world our grip might not be sure we might be at a concert, these things vastly affect how our skills will work so I try in training to cover as many differences. Just a thought I wanted to add hope it helps.



I just try to focus on the training and the principles that underly everything and teach myself to always be moving next, rather than focusing on training for every scenario I can dream up.  The way I see it, once I learned to ride the bike, I didn't have to learn it over again when I rode it in the rain or in the traffic.  It is all the same.  Just my thoughts.


----------



## stephen (Oct 11, 2007)

chrisa said:


> I am new to taijutsu and have only been training in it now for about two months.  My instructor is Luke Molitor of Dallas Tx and is excellent at his instructions, but I wanted to ask.  If you guys wanted to give some advice to the new ukes out there what would it be.  Maybe some of you guys advice will help me to become a better uke to the guys at my dojo.




Attack with intent to harm your partner. You can, and should, go slow but it needs to be a 'real' attack. 

The dynamics (but not the speed or power) need to be exactly the same as how you would attack normally. Otherwise, you'll be doing your partner a disservice by not allowing them to train properly, and you'll be doing yourself a disservice by learning to attack stupidly. 

When it's necessary, it will be easy to 'drop' in speed and power if your mechanics are correct.


----------



## Bigshadow (Oct 11, 2007)

stephen said:


> The dynamics (but not the speed or power) need to be exactly the same as how you would attack normally.



I agree, with exception of the power part.  If you move correctly, there will be strength/power even though you move slow.  I have had my bell rung a few times from someone who had good taijutsu but was moving slowly.


----------



## stephen (Oct 11, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> I agree, with exception of the power part.  If you move correctly, there will be strength/power even though you move slow.  I have had my bell rung a few times from someone who had good taijutsu but was moving slowly.



Fair enough.

Find: power
Replace: strength 

better.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 11, 2007)

stephen said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Find: power
> Replace: strength
> ...


 
Which is the exact reason we have so many people walking around just itching to ***** you over when training.

The current Bujinkan philosophy of not giving your opponent any information or intention to work with is a brilliant concept when executed properly. However, it carries with it a frequently overlooked side effect - it makes the people training unable to sense the difference between power and strength. Which means that the usual cop-out is that as soon as it starts to hurt, the other guy's using strength.


----------



## theletch1 (Oct 11, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Which is the exact reason we have so many people walking around just itching to ***** you over when training.
> 
> The current Bujinkan philosophy of not giving your opponent any information or intention to work with is a brilliant concept when executed properly. However, it carries with it a frequently overlooked side effect - it makes the people training unable to sense the difference between power and strength. Which means that the usual cop-out is that as soon as it starts to hurt, the other guy's using strength.


Attend a few aikido classes and you'll see many instances where using "strength" will actually negate to technique while using "power" and proper form will cause excruciating pain.  Many beginners attempt to muscle their way through a technique because they simply don't understand the difference as stated in Bigshadow's post.


----------



## Bigshadow (Oct 11, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Which is the exact reason we have so many people walking around just itching to ***** you over when training.
> 
> The current Bujinkan philosophy of not giving your opponent any information or intention to work with is a brilliant concept when executed properly. However, it carries with it a frequently overlooked side effect - it makes the people training unable to sense the difference between power and strength. Which means that the usual cop-out is that as soon as it starts to hurt, the other guy's using strength.



Fortunately that doesn't happen in the groups I have trained with here in Florida, at least not often.   Most that I have trained with, were totally destroying me and not using muscle.  To me when they try to muscle things, it seems it isn't nearly as effective and I can often use it against them, so it seems anyway.


----------



## stephen (Oct 11, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Which is the exact reason we have so many people walking around just itching to ***** you over when training.



I've seen bad training, but I don't think most of it is intentional. However, you're exactly correct, I think, concerning the misunderstanding between strength and power and the resultant suckage that can occur. 



Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> The current Bujinkan philosophy of not giving your opponent any information or intention to work with is a brilliant concept when executed properly.
> However, it carries with it a frequently overlooked side effect - it makes the people training unable to sense the difference between power and strength.




This is a really good point, I think it demonstrates a way of working with intention that I do not prefer. I like to think of it this way: New beginners are usually taught to do things in exaggerated way and later told to make it smaller and tighter. When dealing with newer people as tori, I think that uke should provide more intention than dealing with experienced people.

However, the key point is that the mechanics need to be the same in either case. Otherwise the uke is teaching themselves to attack poorly; one step forward, one step back training. There is a huge problem with, which is I think exactly what you're saying, mistaking weak and 'wet-noodly' with this no-intention/no-data idea. 

If people are being noodly, there's no need to do a "technique" - just punch the guy in the noggin! This can lead to a perceived problem when training outside your dojo in situations where you're _supposed_ to be working on "Technique 4 section B" and, really, it's just not going to work 'cause what the attacker needs is a right hook to the mouth. 

Kata are two sided, the attack HAS to be good otherwise the uke just won't get that far in his attack - you'll just get him first. 

So, If I'm punching at a newer guy I try to put enough intention to fill the room. If I'm punching at MY teacher, I try to be as intentionless and sneaky as possible. Both circumstances are good training for me and for my partner. 

I'm starting to ramble tangentially, so I'll stop for now - but I think this is an *excellent* topic. 



Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Which means that the usual cop-out is that as soon as it starts to hurt, the other guy's using strength.



Yeah, I guess we all provide internal and external cop-outs. My goal is to try to recognize when I'm BS-ing myself and stop it. It's the hardest part of my training. Shinshin Shingan, right?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 11, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> Attend a few aikido classes and you'll see many instances where using "strength" will actually negate to technique while using "power" and proper form will cause excruciating pain. Many beginners attempt to muscle their way through a technique because they simply don't understand the difference as stated in Bigshadow's post.


 
Either I don't understand, or we're saying the same thing.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 11, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> Fortunately that doesn't happen in the groups I have trained with here in Florida, at least not often. Most that I have trained with, were totally destroying me and not using muscle. To me when they try to muscle things, it seems it isn't nearly as effective and I can often use it against them, so it seems anyway.


 
Move around a bit, why don't you. :ultracool


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 11, 2007)

stephen said:


> I've seen bad training, but I don't think most of it is intentional.


 
I think it is, albeit on a subconscious level.



stephen said:


> If people are being noodly, there's no need to do a "technique" - just punch the guy in the noggin! This can lead to a perceived problem when training outside your dojo in situations where you're _supposed_ to be working on "Technique 4 section B" and, really, it's just not going to work 'cause what the attacker needs is a right hook to the mouth.


 
*Everyone* performes worse outside their own dojo. There's too many people with too many ideas as to what's supposed to be going on, which means that a lot of the times you're programming yourself to perform a technique under unsuitable circumstances.



stephen said:


> So, If I'm punching at a newer guy I try to put enough intention to fill the room. If I'm punching at MY teacher, I try to be as intentionless and sneaky as possible.


 
Picture this scenario - the newer guy interprets your assertiveness as non-purposeful aggression on your part, and either chickens out or tries to step up to the challenge with an added dosage of strength and hostility. I've seen both happen plenty of times.


----------



## stephen (Oct 11, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> *...*which means that a lot of the times you're programming yourself to perform a technique under unsuitable circumstances.


 
When I'm in this situation I shut down the 'training' part of my brain and don't come back after the class is over. It usually results in me falling down a lot for the other guy and going through the motions when I'm tori. 

In my opinion, training yourself to act inappropriately is suicide. 



Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Picture this scenario - the newer guy interprets your assertiveness as non-purposeful aggression on your part, and either chickens out or tries to step up to the challenge with an added dosage of strength and hostility. I've seen both happen plenty of times.



When I say using intention with newer students - I talking about specifically a very slo-mo attack. If they don't move they will feel my attack, but it will be no more than a very gentle 'push' (for lack of a better word). I use this as an opportunity to really, really focus on and train the 'structure' of my kamae while moving slowly. The way I train this it's actually very difficult for me to do (hard to explain in words though).

So, it's good training to me as well as my partner. In fact, I won't do anything that isn't good training for both people. In a two hour class, training well for half and poorly for half means I just should have went running instead!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 11, 2007)

stephen said:


> When I'm in this situation I shut down the 'training' part of my brain and don't come back after the class is over. It usually results in me falling down a lot for the other guy and going through the motions when I'm tori.


 
I'm not following.


----------



## Bigshadow (Oct 11, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Move around a bit, why don't you. :ultracool



I do when I can.   I was in New Jersey last year training with strangers. LOL


----------



## stephen (Oct 12, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I'm not following.




If I am a participant in bad training I stop training.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 12, 2007)

stephen said:


> If I am a participant in bad training I stop training.


 
I've walked out of ongoing training a couple of times, but I'd be hard-pressed to do that in the Honbu in front of the Shihan of your choice.


----------



## Bigshadow (Oct 12, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> but I'd be hard-pressed to do that in the Honbu in front of the Shihan of your choice.



So, what are you really saying here?


----------



## stephen (Oct 12, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I've walked out of ongoing training a couple of times



I said I stop my own training, not that I leave or sit out. I've never walked out of an ongoing training; I really don't care to draw that much attention. 

This is the situation I was trying to describe here:



			
				me said:
			
		

> When I'm in this situation I shut down the 'training' part of my brain and don't come back after the class is over. It usually results in me falling down a lot for the other guy and going through the motions when I'm tori.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 12, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> So, what are you really saying here?


 
That I'm willing to put up with more to be polite to a Japanese Shihan than a Western one.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 12, 2007)

stephen said:


> I said I stop my own training, not that I leave or sit out.


 
I'm still not sure I understand.


----------



## stephen (Oct 12, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I'm still not sure I understand.



You've heard of the phrase _going through the motions_ and understand what it implies, I assume?


----------



## Bigshadow (Oct 12, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> That I'm willing to put up with more to be polite to a Japanese Shihan than a Western one.



Interesting point of view.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 12, 2007)

stephen said:


> You've heard of the phrase _going through the motions_ and understand what it implies, I assume?


 
I remember the wording, but by all means, keep on elaborating.


----------



## stephen (Oct 12, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I remember the wording, but by all means, keep on elaborating.




I think that's as good as I can do for now. If you could sort of give me your thoughts, maybe I can clarify from there...


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 12, 2007)

What can I say? Stopping training for me means not being there.


----------



## stephen (Oct 12, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> What can I say? Stopping training for me means not being there.




Ok. 

For me, moving my arms and legs around in a dojo is not necessarily training.

I'm sure we can all remember people in school who where present physically in the class, but not actually learning.


----------



## newtothe dark (Oct 12, 2007)

I hear you but isnt that a disservice to your training partner and Sensi? Just a thought.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 12, 2007)

stephen said:


> Ok.
> 
> For me, moving my arms and legs around in a dojo is not necessarily training.
> 
> I'm sure we can all remember people in school who where present physically in the class, but not actually learning.


 
I can see now what you mean. As for me, I haven't been sure that what I've seen has been real or not for the past six years or so, so I'm not always in a position to make that distinction.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 12, 2007)

newtothe dark said:


> I hear you but isnt that a disservice to your training partner and Sensi? Just a thought.


 
No, as I said, everyone's satisfied with that arrangement.


----------



## stephen (Oct 12, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> As for me, I haven't been sure that what I've seen has been real or not for the past six years or so



That's a tough spot. Going to need to find a way out of that. 



Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> so I'm not always in a position to make that distinction.



Go with your gut. Have an opinion and either you'll be right or eventually proved wrong. Either way you'll learn something. 



Don't know what to say... That's a really, really tough spot. What does your teacher say about how you feel?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 13, 2007)

stephen said:


> That's a tough spot. Going to need to find a way out of that.


 
Don't see that happening anytime soon.



stephen said:


> Go with your gut. Have an opinion and either you'll be right or eventually proved wrong. Either way you'll learn something.


 
What I meant was that I'm not always able to tell if something I do in training will benefit me in the long run. There are times when I know that is the case, when I know that it isn't, and when I really don't know.



stephen said:


> Don't know what to say... That's a really, really tough spot. What does your teacher say about how you feel?


 
Which one?


----------



## stephen (Oct 13, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> What I meant was that I'm not always able to tell if something I do in training will benefit me in the long run.



That's what Sensei are for, that whole "Gone Before" thing. 



Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Which one?



Your main one.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 13, 2007)

stephen said:


> That's what Sensei are for, that whole "Gone Before" thing.


 
Sometimes I think that there's a problem these days in that a lot of the high-ups in the Bujinkan have forgotten what it's like to be kyu ranked. But that's the topic for another rant.



stephen said:


> Your main one.


 
He's not teaching anything this fall.


----------



## stephen (Oct 13, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> He's not teaching anything this fall.




Call him on the phone and explain your feelings...

Am I missing something?


----------



## stephen (Oct 13, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Sometimes I think that there's a problem these days in that a lot of the high-ups in the Bujinkan have forgotten what it's like to be kyu ranked.



How is being kyu ranked any different than being dan ranked? 

I mean the only difference I can think of is that at 5th dan you can file some paperwork and order patches.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 13, 2007)

stephen said:


> Call him on the phone and explain your feelings...
> 
> Am I missing something?


 
I'm not about to call any instructor on the phone for the sole purpose of speaking about training. I don't think many people would.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 13, 2007)

stephen said:


> How is being kyu ranked any different than being dan ranked?
> 
> I mean the only difference I can think of is that at 5th dan you can file some paperwork and order patches.


 
Seriously, you're joking, right?

I've had more than enough proof of the fact that the training atmospheres between dan ranked people, kyu ranked people and mixed groups are all totally different (at least it is in Honbu). Not to mention the very obvious fact that you're being observed and judged totally different depending on your belt color - which I actually feel should be cherished for as long as it last.


----------



## stephen (Oct 13, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I'm not about to call any instructor on the phone for the sole purpose of speaking about training. I don't think many people would.




Well, I can't speak for "many people", so I won't. I will however speak for my relationship with my teacher and my students:

I call my teacher often (once every week or two) to talk about training. Some of my students contact me every once in a while outside of dojo training as well to get my opinion or to bounce ideas off of me. 

Budo is transmitted man to man. To me, that means that one needs a personal relationsip with your teacher. 

If you can't ask your teacher what he thinks about your training, what's the point?


----------



## stephen (Oct 13, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Seriously, you're joking, right?



No.



Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I've had more than enough proof of the fact that the training atmospheres between dan ranked people, kyu ranked people and mixed groups are all totally different (at least it is in Honbu).



Well, I can't speak for the way others train. But I will mention how I train (and rank):

White: I am made of glass!
Green:  My safety is your responsibility
Black: My safety is my responsibility

So, I may treat people differently in this way, but it's no more than a safety issue. 



Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Not to mention the very obvious fact that you're being observed and judged totally different depending on your belt color



Well, maybe others do. I see a lot of people who aren't "my students" but who train on occasion with me. I really don't judge any differently based on their rank. Really. 




Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> which I actually feel should be cherished for as long as it last.




I think I understand where you're going with this....But you can't stay in grade school forever. And really, is anyone really ready for the "real world" when they graduate college?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 14, 2007)

stephen said:


> Well, maybe others do. I see a lot of people who aren't "my students" but who train on occasion with me. I really don't judge any differently based on their rank. Really.


 
Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to, I can't base my views on the Bujinkan on the opinions of one person, that one being yourself.




stephen said:


> I think I understand where you're going with this....But you can't stay in grade school forever.


 
I've made a pretty good effort. And no, you're probably never ready, but that's no excuse to not take some precautions.


----------



## stephen (Oct 14, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to, I can't base my views on the Bujinkan on the opinions of one person, that one being yourself.



Well, to be honest, I'm not sure anyone should be basing any views of the Bujinkan on anyone but Soke, as he IS the Bujinkan. 

As for the judging people based on rank. I don't even get it. Movement is movement. If two very differently ranked people move the exact same way are you going to have different opinions of the quality of the movement?





Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I've made a pretty good effort. And no, you're probably never ready, but that's no excuse to not take some precautions.




Seems to me that some people are looking for "The Glow (TM)"






It ain't comin'.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 14, 2007)

stephen said:


> Well, to be honest, I'm not sure anyone should be basing any views of the Bujinkan on anyone but Soke, as he IS the Bujinkan.
> 
> As for the judging people based on rank. I don't even get it. Movement is movement. If two very differently ranked people move the exact same way are you going to have different opinions of the quality of the movement?


 
You are definately correct in that movement is movement.  When I was last at the hombu dojo I worked with a Swede who was still just in the Kyu grade level.  His movement was *brilliant* and he was alot of fun to work with for that very short period of time.  Never over estimate someone based on their rank or status and never underestimate someone based on the same.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 14, 2007)

stephen said:


> Well, to be honest, I'm not sure anyone should be basing any views of the Bujinkan on anyone but Soke, as he IS the Bujinkan.


 
The way he practices Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is different from everyone else's way. 



stephen said:


> As for the judging people based on rank. I don't even get it. Movement is movement.


 
Totally agreed.



stephen said:


> If two very differently ranked people move the exact same way are you going to have different opinions of the quality of the movement?


 
Depends on who moves first, and the quality of those movements.




stephen said:


> Seems to me that some people are looking for "The Glow (TM)"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
"Hogwash." It's come around plenty of times. It's just that it's getting more and more rare.


----------

