# Where Did Everyone Go?



## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

I haven't been active for some time, but now that I am back it seems the forum is a lot slower with fewer participating members than in the past.  Where do the cool kids go these days to talk martial arts?


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## jobo (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> I haven't been active for some time, but now that I am back it seems the forum is a lot slower with fewer participating members than in the past.  Where do the cool kids go these days to talk martial arts?


facebook


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## donald1 (Sep 29, 2020)

I usually just talk about martial arts here if not in class while it happens. Most of my friends could care less about martial arts so I rarely talk about it unless one of them brings it up. 

I kinda like Facebook... Like anything, it has pros and cons. Theres a lot of cringy 'inspiration quotes' on facebook. The martial arts groups there are no exception to this.

Other than that, same ol', same ol'.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 29, 2020)

Facebook, reddit and discord I believe. Not a fan of any of those personally when it comes to MA discussion.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2020)

I stay off Facebook altogether.


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## _Simon_ (Sep 30, 2020)

I'm active on 3-4 forums all up and this forum is the most active our of them! Looks good to me, but not sure what it usually was like [emoji14]


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## granfire (Oct 1, 2020)

Forums are declining in general.
I try to stay off FB these days.

Discord is the new platform, but who knows. 
It's good but lacks certain features. I am considering to start a channel to give my FB friends a means to not be there. 

And when you can't practice what you preach, you quickly run out of material to talk about.


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## jobo (Oct 1, 2020)

granfire said:


> Forums are declining in general.
> I try to stay off FB these days.
> 
> Discord is the new platform, but who knows.
> ...


yes they are, 10 years ago you could find an active forum on nearly and topic of intrest,
its hard to say why that may be, lot of reasons i suggest, moderation id one key reason, with mods shutting down any debate that becomes passioned, as people generaly want to talk about thibgs they feel pasiobate about with people who are equally passionate, it becomes an exercise in futility and peopke just go else where,, nothing kills a forum faster than a whole lot of people agreeing with each other , who wants to read that, apart from the people who cant stand being disagreed with, they go off and start their own fqcebook group were no one can disgree.


 i returned to a cycling forum, that 8 tears ago had 50 ir 60 active members arguing with extreme passion on the merits of varius chain lubrication, its not just ma that gets lost in the detail,  i was verbally attacked threaten with violance and suvsequently banned for saying i put wd 40 on my chain. which no one else agreed with

now there just two old blokes agreeing with each other on being old is&&%%

i used to go on conspiracy  site, where people threatenibg to stab me, fire bomb my house or sugesting we shoukd meet and sort it out like men was extremly common,

they never once turned up or maybe they did and realisibg how big i was kept going,  i miss the wild west internet

they eventually banned all the people who didnt think the world was flat, that we were rule by shape shifting pan dimebtial beings or that you are enslaved by your birth certificate  and the site just died of agreement

it was a little like going to the asylum to laugh at the loonies, but it pasted an hour on pleasantly enough


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## dancingalone (Oct 1, 2020)

jobo said:


> yes they are, 10 years ago you could find an active forum on nearly and topic of intrest,


I just joined a Facebook karate group.  It seems much more active and the broad majority of members use their actual names on their accounts.  I like that.  At least there is some knowledge there of who people are and whom they train with.


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## jobo (Oct 1, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> I just joined a Facebook karate group.  It seems much more active and the broad majority of members use their actual names on their accounts.  I like that.  At least there is some knowledge there of who people are and whom they train with.


im glad youve found somewhere your happy,

alot depends one what you want or need, a lot of facebook groups end up as echo chambers, where by their nature they are lijely to all agree that karate or what ever  is a very effective life enhancibg art, which is comftable to have your views reflected back at you, but can also be problematic  if  non of the views you have collectivly agreed on are ever challenged, you may well be collectivly wrong  about the art its application to the real world of the best way to train it,and you will stay collectivly wrong unless other vuews are heard and considered

and thts true no matter what the subject matter is


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## dancingalone (Oct 1, 2020)

jobo said:


> im glad youve found somewhere your happy,
> 
> alot depends one what you want or need, a lot of facebook groups end up as echo chambers, where by their nature they are lijely to all agree that karate or what ever  is a very effective life enhancibg art, which is comftable to have your views reflected back at you, but can also be problematic  if  non of the views you have collectivly agreed on are ever challenged, you may well be collectivly wrong  about the art its application to the real world of the best way to train it,and you will stay collectivly wrong unless other vuews are heard and considered



Well, point taken.  But, I'll be honest.  At my age and years of experience in karate, I'm not exactly looking to have my views changed by a young buck newly enchanted with <insert new art or method>.  I know a lot about karate and have learned from some of the best.  Haven't used it much in 'real' situations, nor do I expect to.  For me, it's a hobby personally and a profession where I make some income.  I am content to network and talk obscure fine points of the art with others of like mind and experiences.

Others may find it important to evangelize about their styles and systems.  I do not.


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## Steve (Oct 1, 2020)

I'm on a coffee forum and a soap making forum that are both very active.  In both cases, the thing that I think keeps them active is it's all based on performance.  As a result, there's a complete lack of ********.  And in each, there is a science element and an art element.  Both drive a lot of interesting discussion.

If you screw something up with soap, it can be diagnosed.  Did you add too much lye?  Did you pour it too hot?  Ultimately, was your technique sound? 

Similarly, if you screw something up with coffee, it can be diagnosed.  Roast, grinder, water, coffee maker, technique.  If it tastes bitter in the cup, it's because you did something wrong.  Period. 

Both have plenty of room for preferences and opinions, but everyone's opinions are respected and valued because they are all grounded in results.  "I do X this way, because it results in Y." 

MA isn't like that, and more to the point, this forum isn't like that.  We can't even agree on what a result looks like, much less have a discussion that is results driven.  Shoot, just today I had to explain again that to be an expert in something you have to do that thing.  It seems like common sense to me, and yet here we are.


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## jobo (Oct 1, 2020)

Steve said:


> I'm on a coffee forum and a soap making forum that are both very active.  In both cases, the thing that I think keeps them active is it's all based on performance.  As a result, there's a complete lack of ********.  And in each, there is a science element and an art element.  Both drive a lot of interesting discussion.
> 
> If you screw something up with soap, it can be diagnosed.  Did you add too much lye?  Did you pour it too hot?  Ultimately, was your technique sound?
> 
> ...


im facinated to know thereare devotees to either sufficent to run a forum, well coffee fine i live on it,  but indepth discusion on java blend, that sounds like heaven.
but soap, that stuff i qadh my feet with, that a suprise

though the most unussual one ive seen was a forum dedicated to the appreciaction of electricity pylons


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 1, 2020)

Many years ago, my friend asked me, "Why do you spend time on internet discussion? If someone says bad thing about you, what can you do?" Even today I still don't have answer for him.

A: What should I do ...?
B: You may try ...
A: Don't give me those mystery Chinese garbage ...
B: &^%$#@ 
A: @#$%^&


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## Steve (Oct 1, 2020)

jobo said:


> im facinated to know thereare devotees to either sufficent to run a forum, well coffee fine i live on it,  but indepth discusion on java blend, that sounds like heaven.
> but soap, that stuff i qadh my feet with, that a suprise
> 
> though the most unussual one ive seen was a forum dedicated to the appreciaction of electricity pylons


Coffee is pretty straightforward.  I mean, if you consider the choices between beans, roasting profiles (light roasts, dark roasts, prolonged first crack, etc), brewing method (moka pot, drip, pour over, french press, siphon/vacuum press, cold brew, espresso), and then the different equipment.  And that's really before you get into specific recipes or techniques.  I mean, there are a lot of discussions about dosing and extraction, grind quality.  It's art and science, which is fertile grounds (haha) for discussion.

Regarding soap making, it's actually very similar to coffee.  No one argues the science of it...  but you have a lot of discussion about technique.  And the choices and troubleshooting never end with soap making.  I mean, you can pretty much use any kind of oil to make soap, and they all have different types of acids in them (Lauric, Myristic, Palmitic, Stearic, Ricinoleic, Oleic, Linoleic, and/or Linolenic).  Each acid brings something unique to the party when it interacts with the lye.  So, it's a lot of individual trial and error.  Pig tallow is going to make a different bar of soap than olive oil (aka castile soap).  And this is just the soap.  You can also add all sorts of adjuncts, from essential oils to things like honey, charcoal, micas, clays, beeswax, coffee, beer, milks (e.g., goat milk).  And even after that, you have the art of making the soap.  Some people are just crazy talented.   For what it's worth, I make really good soap... but I'm still working on making artistic soap.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 1, 2020)

contrary to Jobo,  i feel there to much arguing and BS. there is a big difference between debating a topic or concept and being a $#!t bag who argues every little comment and irrelevant word someone writes.  i got sick and tired of people making a big deal out of how someone expresses their opinion and the words they use rather than the opinion and/ or intended concept itself.  i have seen martial arts forums, that like this one were really busy and once people started flaming each other and throwing insults the page all but disappeared. its sad to see but some people are just a cancer who drive all the decent people away.  if im your cancer ,,, im sorry.    i also think people in general (because of politics) are more divided and set in their ways and thoughts and do not want to hear others opinions.


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## jobo (Oct 1, 2020)

hoshin1600 said:


> contrary to Jobo,  i feel there to much arguing and BS. there is a big difference between debating a topic or concept and being a $#!t bag who argues every little comment and irrelevant word someone writes.  i got sick and tired of people making a big deal out of how someone expresses their opinion and the words they use rather than the opinion and/ or intended concept itself.  i have seen martial arts forums, that like this one were really busy and once people started flaming each other and throwing insults the page all but disappeared. its sad to see but some people are just a cancer who drive all the decent people away.  if im your cancer ,,, im sorry.    i also think people in general (because of politics) are more divided and set in their ways and thoughts and do not want to hear others opinions.


calling people s##t bags isnt really helping to foster a culture of calm considerate discusion,  is it?


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## Steve (Oct 1, 2020)

hoshin1600 said:


> if im your cancer ,,, im sorry.


This made me laugh out loud.  It brought to mind the phrase, "Every failed relationship in your life has one thing in common: you."


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 1, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Well, point taken.  But, I'll be honest.  At my age and years of experience in karate, I'm not exactly looking to have my views changed by a young buck newly enchanted with <insert new art or method>.  I know a lot about karate and have learned from some of the best.  Haven't used it much in 'real' situations, nor do I expect to.  For me, it's a hobby personally and a profession where I make some income.  I am content to network and talk obscure fine points of the art with others of like mind and experiences.
> 
> Others may find it important to evangelize about their styles and systems.  I do not.


Excellent!  Let's get obscure and discuss the finer points of advanced karate.  That may leave out some YouTube karate experts, though - Too bad.

Re: the drop off in posters, it has gone way down this year.  Those that purposely post provocative or illogical/dumb points just to be contrary and get a rise out of others may be a contributing factor; along with prolonged back and forth between two posters, each trying to top the other.  It is boring to the rest of us.  After 3 such back and forths each, if there is no agreement or compromise between the two, they should disengage and not consider it a surrender.  It's actually a victory for the rest of us.  Perhaps a Moderator could step in and suggest a conclusion to the dialog?


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## Steve (Oct 1, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Excellent!  Let's get obscure and discuss the finer points of advanced karate.  That may leave out some YouTube karate experts, though - Too bad.
> 
> Re: the drop off in posters, it has gone way down this year.  Those that purposely post provocative or illogical/dumb points just to be contrary and get a rise out of others may be a contributing factor; along with prolonged back and forth between two posters, each trying to top the other.  It is boring to the rest of us.  After 3 such back and forths each, if there is no agreement or compromise between the two, they should disengage and not consider it a surrender.  It's actually a victory for the rest of us.  Perhaps a Moderator could step in and suggest a conclusion to the dialog?


I actually put someone on the ignore list and it's been pretty nice.  Hopefully that helps with the back and forth you mention.  I'll not contribute to it anymore.


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## jobo (Oct 2, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Excellent!  Let's get obscure and discuss the finer points of advanced karate.  That may leave out some YouTube karate experts, though - Too bad.
> 
> Re: the drop off in posters, it has gone way down this year.  Those that purposely post provocative or illogical/dumb points just to be contrary and get a rise out of others may be a contributing factor; along with prolonged back and forth between two posters, each trying to top the other.  It is boring to the rest of us.  After 3 such back and forths each, if there is no agreement or compromise between the two, they should disengage and not consider it a surrender.  It's actually a victory for the rest of us.  Perhaps a Moderator could step in and suggest a conclusion to the dialog?


so in summary , you want any discusions you find boring to be shut down, whilst any discusions you enjoy to be alliwed to contibue even if other people find them boring

is that a fair summation?

have you considered the application of freewill and just dont read them?


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## _Simon_ (Oct 2, 2020)

jobo said:


> yes they are, 10 years ago you could find an active forum on nearly and topic of intrest,
> its hard to say why that may be, lot of reasons i suggest, moderation id one key reason, with mods shutting down any debate that becomes passioned, as people generaly want to talk about thibgs they feel pasiobate about with people who are equally passionate, it becomes an exercise in futility and peopke just go else where,, nothing kills a forum faster than a whole lot of people agreeing with each other , who wants to read that, apart from the people who cant stand being disagreed with, they go off and start their own fqcebook group were no one can disgree.
> 
> 
> ...


Holy crap that's intense... :s. It's amazing what people say behind the safety and distance of the internet that they frankly most likely wouldn't say when standing in front of them


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## _Simon_ (Oct 2, 2020)

Steve said:


> I actually put someone on the ignore list and it's been pretty nice.  Hopefully that helps with the back and forth you mention.  I'll not contribute to it anymore.


I've never put anyone on it... yet haha. It'd have to be a massively motivated reason haha

And re: coffee forums, I'm on 2 of them, one of them is dead quiet, and the other a fair bit of activity. But it has gotten a bit heated in there. It's interesting what gets discussed, but it seems of late that 90% is mainly threads about equipment and 'help me my machine/grinder isn't workiiiiiing'.

I prefer the more technical/art side of things, moreso brewing techniques, recipes, distribution, latte art etc. And chatting about what we're roasting and what new things we're trying out is fun too.


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## jobo (Oct 2, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Holy crap that's intense... :s. It's amazing what people say behind the safety and distance of the internet that they frankly most likely wouldn't say when standing in front of them


i think people just react very badly to anyone having an opinion that differs greatly from there own, particularly if that opinion out logics their own

its the whole safe place thing, where peopke want to be issoaled from divergent views, so they never have to consider the possibility that they are ilinformed incorrect or just out and out wrong 

you see it oft on her where clearly 3educated people start with personal insults the moment their logic fails them.or want someone banned, socially ostracized or just the esatblishment of a safe place where they dont have to hear any other opinion, the ignore button us just a put your fingers in your ears, im not listening " safe place" by another name

"" oh no, someone disagrees" got to stop their views reaching me"


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 2, 2020)

jobo said:


> so in summary , you want any discusions you find boring to be shut down, whilst any discusions you enjoy to be alliwed to contibue even if other people find them boring
> 
> is that a fair summation?
> 
> have you considered the application of freewill and just dont read them?



That is not a fair summation at all of what I said.  You are making leaps of erroneous conclusions.  Never suggested anything "be shut down."  This is product invented in your ever-contrary mind.  Suggesting that participants in endless back and forth dialogs try to get to some mutual agreement or stop repeatedly butting their heads against the wall (with some input from our friendly Moderators if helpful) is a far cry from what you represented.  

The way you twisted my post to appear over-extreme is an example of the purposely grating remarks that serve only to provoke, and do not serve the exchange of honest (agreeing or disagreeing) opinions.  Perhaps my post hit a little too close to home?


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## granfire (Oct 2, 2020)

I found that economic changes are reflected in forum usage.
A forum I used to frequent saw a significant drop in members in 2008, when the recession hit. 
It was about horses, so the lack of money forced a lot of people to sell, or rather give away. 
(the climate also changed, people were not as nice anymore)
They shot themselves in the foot when they made the occasional treat of an off-topic day a permanent fixture. You didn't forget the loonies in between sessions anymore, and that bled into the related discussions. 
then ownership changed, and moderation became lob sided. 
(and then I got banned 4 or 5 times, mostly for creating alts. Now I hardly ever check, usually only when I have hotel internet - because IP banned, LOL)

MT suffered when the political debate was banned. 
All life is political, and one can't discuss certain aspects in society without the topic becoming political.
However, the attic and basement were over the top. I don't miss the Russian troll bot who had some outlandish theories he was spreading. 

and the younger generation is not into forums. Too static.
Even FB is losing it's appeal (it's moderation is also very onesided)


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## dancingalone (Oct 2, 2020)

granfire said:


> I found that economic changes are reflected in forum usage.


Hi, Granfire.  I remember you from the "before times".  Are you still kicking?  I worked out a few years ago with some people that belonged to Dr. Kimm's org, and I recall talking about Hanmudo a few times with you and wondered how you were doing.

Sadly I think many of the people I used to interact with were older than me, and they may not be in the martial arts anymore even if they are still around.


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## jobo (Oct 2, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> That is not a fair summation at all of what I said.  You are making leaps of erroneous conclusions.  Never suggested anything "be shut down."  This is product invented in your ever-contrary mind.  Suggesting that participants in endless back and forth dialogs try to get to some mutual agreement or stop repeatedly butting their heads against the wall (with some input from our friendly Moderators if helpful) is a far cry from what you represented.
> 
> The way you twisted my post to appear over-extreme is an example of the purposely grating remarks that serve only to provoke, and do not serve the exchange of honest (agreeing or disagreeing) opinions.  Perhaps my post hit a little too close to home?


thats exaxtly what you said and youve just reiterated in different words

that threads you find boring should be closed by the mods, it probebly teue that the peopke involved dont find them boring, or they would stop

so the only person objecting is you, but you want the whole forum  moderated to your whims


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## granfire (Oct 2, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Hi, Granfire.  I remember you from the "before times".  Are you still kicking?  I worked out a few years ago with some people that belonged to Dr. Kimm's org, and I recall talking about Hanmudo a few times with you and wondered how you were doing.
> 
> Sadly I think many of the people I used to interact with were older than me, and they may not be in the martial arts anymore even if they are still around.


I am doing good. 
Life got in the way of me training, so I have not seen the inside of a dojo in a while (and I hated the direction the school was going)
Just putzing around these days, but need to reactivate this old body.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 2, 2020)

jobo said:


> thats exaxtly what you said and youve just reiterated in different words
> that threads you find boring should be closed by the mods, it probebly teue that the peopke involved dont find them boring, or they would stop
> so the only person objecting is you, but you want the whole forum  moderated to your whims


Please quote my post where I say threads should be closed, or heavily moderated by anyone.

You're ridiculous.  It seems were are in different dimensions of reality.   I'm disengaging.  Goodbye.


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## jobo (Oct 2, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Please quote my post where I say threads should be closed, or heavily moderated by anyone.
> 
> You're ridiculous.  It seems were are in different dimensions of reality.   I'm disengaging.  Goodbye.


goodbye.

thats what i said above about people just flouncing off if anyone dares to disagree


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## dancingalone (Oct 2, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Perhaps a Moderator could step in and suggest a conclusion to the dialog?



The forums definitely used to be more strongly moderated.  It seems more like a free-for-all right now with people from different styles freely crossing over into karate, for example, and offering their opinions on why karate should or should not do.  We used to reserve the General Talk forum for that. 

These days I prefer my threads more tightly focused.  Hmm.


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