# The Conflict of Gi vs No Gi



## GreatSayiaman

I was always wondering why there is always a conflict between the practitioners who like the train in the Gi and the Practitioners that only train No Gi. Never understood and never got it. 

I do train in a gym that is primarily No Gi but they started to have Gi classes at the gym. and I have trained at Schools where they do train in Gi and No Gi. Personally I love both aspects of the BJJ Game.

Anyone know why this is when it comes to this issue within the BJJ community???


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## Headhunter

Ego plain and simple some people love to believe their way is superior to everyone else's and there's no middle ground


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## Kung Fu Wang

The MA skill that you apply on summer sandy beach is different from the MA skill that you apply on winter ski slope. You need to know how to take advantage on your opponent's clothes. Your skill also should not depend on your opponent's clothes.


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## drop bear

Different games.

We have guys who won't wear GI. They just don't like it.


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## GreatSayiaman

drop bear said:


> Different games.
> 
> We have guys who won't wear GI. They just don't like it.


I completely get different games however I do not get why most of the BJJ community is at each others throats about Gi vs No Gi


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## CrazedChris

No idea.  I do know that we are setting up a new dojo soon and the sensei said we mus have our gis on, or at least the pants, with a tshirt, during the super hot months.


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## Flying Crane

GreatSayiaman said:


> I completely get different games however I do not get why most of the BJJ community is at each others throats about Gi vs No Gi


Are they at each other’s throats?  I hadn’t heard this.


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## GreatSayiaman

Flying Crane said:


> Are they at each other’s throats?  I hadn’t heard this.



Its like the community from the more traditional Brazilian side of the community say train the Gi and it improves your No Gi Game. While the more Modern side of things ie 10th Planet JJ say the Gi is worthless get rid of the Japanese Superhero outfit. That is the conflict im talking about


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## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Are they at each other’s throats?  I hadn’t heard this.


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## Flying Crane

GreatSayiaman said:


> Its like the community from the more traditional Brazilian side of the community say train the Gi and it improves your No Gi Game. While the more Modern side of things ie 10th Planet JJ say the Gi is worthless get rid of the Japanese Superhero outfit. That is the conflict im talking about


Well, how heated is the debate, really?


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## oldwarrior

GreatSayiaman said:


> Its like the community from the more traditional Brazilian side of the community say train the Gi and it improves your No Gi Game. While the more Modern side of things ie 10th Planet JJ say the Gi is worthless get rid of the Japanese Superhero outfit. That is the conflict im talking about



It not a super hero outfit ...

I am fairly sure when the Gi was first introduced (Kano i think if memory serves ) the people still studying in Kimono would have had issues and probably vice versa so isn't a new thing and as one reply said ...it just a way of saying they think there way is the best lol.


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## Tony Dismukes

Flying Crane said:


> Well, how heated is the debate, really?


Not at all. Most BJJ practitioners do both. A minority specialize. 10th Planet is the only association I know who don’t do gi at all, but I’ve never seen them bad-mouth those who do train in the gi.

Really, the only argument is for those who train just for competition, and who choose to only compete in one format (gi or no-gi), is there an advantage to sometimes training in the other format or should you stick strictly to the way you plan to compete? Opinions differ, but I’ve never met anyone who got mad about it.

For those who train BJJ as a martial art, the answer is to train both. For those who train as a sport, but like some variety in your tournaments, then the answer is again both.


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## Danny T

Two different games. Some people like boxing some like kickboxing.


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## Tony Dismukes

drop bear said:


>


I haven’t asked Brian, but I suspect he was just ****-stirring for clicks.


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## Danny T

Tony Dismukes said:


> Not at all. Most BJJ practitioners do both. A minority specialize. 10th Planet is the only association I know who don’t do gi at all, but I’ve never seen them bad-mouth those who do train in the gi.
> 
> Really, the only argument is for those who train just for competition, and who choose to only compete in one format (gi or no-gi), is there an advantage to sometimes training in the other format or should you stick strictly to the way you plan to compete? Opinions differ, but I’ve never met anyone who got mad about it.
> 
> For those who train BJJ as a martial art, the answer is to train both. For those who train as a sport, but like some variety in your tournaments, then the answer is again both.


And Eddie Bravo does a lot in gi pants just no gi top.


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## Flying Crane

Tony Dismukes said:


> Not at all. Most BJJ practitioners do both. A minority specialize. 10th Planet is the only association I know who don’t do gi at all, but I’ve never seen them bad-mouth those who do train in the gi.
> 
> Really, the only argument is for those who train just for competition, and who choose to only compete in one format (gi or no-gi), is there an advantage to sometimes training in the other format or should you stick strictly to the way you plan to compete? Opinions differ, but I’ve never met anyone who got mad about it.
> 
> For those who train BJJ as a martial art, the answer is to train both. For those who train as a sport, but like some variety in your tournaments, then the answer is again both.


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## Deafdude#5

I couldn’t care either way. I’ve trained with gi and with just a singlet (talk about skimpy).
It’s a mindset issue for me.


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## drop bear

GreatSayiaman said:


> I completely get different games however I do not get why most of the BJJ community is at each others throats about Gi vs No Gi



Because one is a pyjama wearing freak who is still living in the 70s and the other is lycra wearing weirdo who thinks he is an Olympic swimmer or something.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Not at all. Most BJJ practitioners do both. A minority specialize. 10th Planet is the only association I know who don’t do gi at all, but I’ve never seen them bad-mouth those who do train in the gi.
> 
> Really, the only argument is for those who train just for competition, and who choose to only compete in one format (gi or no-gi), is there an advantage to sometimes training in the other format or should you stick strictly to the way you plan to compete? Opinions differ, but I’ve never met anyone who got mad about it.
> 
> For those who train BJJ as a martial art, the answer is to train both. For those who train as a sport, but like some variety in your tournaments, then the answer is again both.



Clubs get GI weird though. There are competitions that would not allow my tie dye for example.


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## Deafdude#5

Interesting. I’d like to see a photo of that tie dye gi.

Did you dye it yourself?

I can’t imagine why that wouldn’t allow it though. Hard core traditionalists?


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## Tony Dismukes

Here's what I tell my students regarding gi vs no-gi ...

Training in the gi is good for your defense. By wearing a gi you have provided your opponent with a whole bunch of sturdy handles they can use to control you. When you go to escape a submission or a bad position, you can't rely on explosiveness or slipperiness - you need good technique and proper leverage.

Training no-gi will sharpen your offense. You don't have convenient handles to control your opponent so you need good technique to keep them from escaping your submissions and dominant positions with explosiveness and slipperiness.

For self-defense, you and your opponent might or might not be wearing sturdy clothing of the sort which allows for gi-centric techniques, so it's good to be prepared for either eventuality.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


>


Wow...he doesn't really grasp the idea of the belt being a concept, sometimes. He needs to lay off the caffeine.


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## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> Wow...he doesn't really grasp the idea of the belt being a concept, sometimes. He needs to lay off the caffeine.


Brian is a smart guy (his day job is as a college professor), so I'm sure he must get the concept. As I said before, I suspect he was just trolling for clicks.


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## Gerry Seymour

I hadn't heard of there being such a divide. It's a bit surprising to me. I prefer training in a gi. I sometimes wear one even when I attend seminars and am the only one in a gi. Like Tony said, I think there's value in working both. I own a full no-gi set (spats, shorts, rash guard), and I like training in it when I get a chance. More important to me is getting the opportunity to train against folks not wearing a gi. I don't train so much to depend upon the uniform (as you'd see in Judo, for instance), but it's interesting to see how much changes when there's a light t-shirt, rash guard, or no shirt.

Back to your question about why there is so much acrimony: ego. There's no other answer I can think of.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> Brian is a smart guy (his day job is as a college professor), so I'm sure he must get the concept. As I said before, I suspect he was just trolling for clicks.


I hope so. Otherwise, that was a bit much.


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## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> Brian is a smart guy (his day job is as a college professor), so I'm sure he must get the concept. As I said before, I suspect he was just trolling for clicks.



If that was the case he got what he wanted. That one really blew up at the time.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Wow...he doesn't really grasp the idea of the belt being a concept, sometimes. He needs to lay off the caffeine.



Or ranked rash guards.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Or ranked rash guards.


I saw some of those. Kinda cool, actually. One set I saw actually had belts printed on them, as if to say, "See? It's a BELT!"


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I saw some of those. Kinda cool, actually. One set I saw actually had belts printed on them, as if to say, "See? It's a BELT!"


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## GreatSayiaman

drop bear said:


> Or ranked rash guards.


Thanks for the Opinions, However for Jiu Jitsu at the place I train at it is Primary No Gi, I have done Gi Jiu Jitsu in the Past and The Gym I am at started Gi Classes, For myself I'm an advocate of Jiu Jitsu (BJJ/GJJ)in General both Gi and No Gi love both Aspects of the Game. Like I stated I'm mostly a Muay Thai guy and in MT there are no Belt Ranks so for myself I could care less about Rank and I just want to Learn the Art of Jiu Jitsu (BJJ/GJJ) both the Self Defense Aspect and Sporting Aspect.


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## drop bear

GreatSayiaman said:


> Thanks for the Opinions, However for Jiu Jitsu at the place I train at it is Primary No Gi, I have done Gi Jiu Jitsu in the Past and The Gym I am at started Gi Classes, For myself I'm an advocate of Jiu Jitsu (BJJ/GJJ)in General both Gi and No Gi love both Aspects of the Game. Like I stated I'm mostly a Muay Thai guy and in MT there are no Belt Ranks so for myself I could care less about Rank and I just want to Learn the Art of Jiu Jitsu (BJJ/GJJ) both the Self Defense Aspect and Sporting Aspect.



Part of learning the art is competing though. And you need rank to compete fairly.


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## Brian R. VanCise

*As Tony mentioned* from a martial perspective you need skill in both.  If your opponent has heavy clothing or a coat that allows you to utilize hand holds to slow them down or for chokes then that skill in the Gi could really pay off.  However if they are shirtless or a light t-shirt then No-Gi may be the skill that you need.  One thing I feel that people some times miss on is that it is easier to move from Gi to No-Gi.  Meaning, that if you train Gi it is an easier transition to No-Gi than vice versa.  *Train both and have the more complete skill set!*


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## Gerry Seymour

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *As Tony mentioned* from a martial perspective you need skill in both.  If your opponent has heavy clothing or a coat that allows you to utilize hand holds to slow them down or for chokes then that skill in the Gi could really pay off.  However if they are shirtless or a light t-shirt then No-Gi may be the skill that you need.  One thing I feel that people some times miss on is that it is easier to move from Gi to No-Gi.  Meaning, that if you train Gi it is an easier transition to No-Gi than vice versa.  *Train both and have the more complete skill set!*


I'm curious why it is easier to transition from gi to no-gi. My training started with gi, so I agree that's a relatively easy transition, but I'd assumed the transition in the other direction was similar.


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## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *As Tony mentioned* from a martial perspective you need skill in both.  If your opponent has heavy clothing or a coat that allows you to utilize hand holds to slow them down or for chokes then that skill in the Gi could really pay off.  However if they are shirtless or a light t-shirt then No-Gi may be the skill that you need.  One thing I feel that people some times miss on is that it is easier to move from Gi to No-Gi.  Meaning, that if you train Gi it is an easier transition to No-Gi than vice versa.  *Train both and have the more complete skill set!*



But easier from no GI to MMA?


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I'm curious why it is easier to transition from gi to no-gi. My training started with gi, so I agree that's a relatively easy transition, but I'd assumed the transition in the other direction was similar.



Because grips are a form of black voodo magic.


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## Brian R. VanCise

The big reason it is easier is that the Gi game is a slower game with more grips, more options than No-Gi.  Someone starting with No-Gi has a lot of extra things to learn with all the Gi chokes, etc.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Brian R. VanCise said:


> it is easier to move from Gi to No-Gi.


Have to disagree with you on this. The jacket will give you a good pulling. Without jacket, most of your pulling is gone. You can still pull with some contact points. But it's easy for your opponent to break away. Also your pulling contact point will not be the same as your pushing contact point. If you have to switch contact points, you will lose your timing advantage.

For example, you can't do this push, pull, sweep without jacket.


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## Gerry Seymour

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The big reason it is easier is that the Gi game is a slower game with more grips, more options than No-Gi.  Someone starting with No-Gi has a lot of extra things to learn with all the Gi chokes, etc.


I can see that.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Have to disagree with you on this. The jacket will give you a good pulling. Without jacket, most of your pulling is gone. You can still pull with some contact points. But it's easy for your opponent to break away. Also your pulling contact point will not be the same as your pushing contact point. If you have to switch contact points, you will lose your timing advantage.
> 
> For example, you can't do this push, pull, sweep without jacket.


For BJJ, it's not as big a problem as it would be for Judo or SC, from what I can see. On the ground, there's less use of the uniform (and less dependency upon it), so the loss of those grip points isn't as troublesome.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> For BJJ, it's not as big a problem as it would be for Judo or SC, from what I can see. On the ground, there's less use of the uniform (and less dependency upon it), so the loss of those grip points isn't as troublesome.



Heaps of sweeps and preventive stuff.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Heaps of sweeps and preventive stuff.


Yeah, I didn't say it wasn't used. I'm comparing the use of clothing grabbing (and its impact on technique) to standing - so, comparing what you'd see in Judo comp to BJJ comp. Much more use of - and dependency upon - the cloth in Judo. I have wondered at times if some of that difference is because of the different cut of the BJJ gi.


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## GreatSayiaman

drop bear said:


> Part of learning the art is competing though. And you need rank to compete fairly.


I see where you are coming from when it comes to ranking and I have competed in the past and was fun, However I see comps as a way to see where I'm weak and strong at outside of sparring in my comfort zone and I see it where if I move up within the Ranking System within my school cool and keep training and learning.If not keep training and learning still. Like I said maybe it is due to the Muay Thai mentality  I have now since training with my Kru.


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## TSDTexan

Tony Dismukes said:


> Here's what I tell my students regarding gi vs no-gi ...
> 
> Training in the gi is good for your defense. By wearing a gi you have provided your opponent with a whole bunch of sturdy handles they can use to control you. When you go to escape a submission or a bad position, you can't rely on explosiveness or slipperiness - you need good technique and proper leverage.
> 
> Training no-gi will sharpen your offense. You don't have convenient handles to control your opponent so you need good technique to keep them from escaping your submissions and dominant positions with explosiveness and slipperiness.
> 
> For self-defense, you and your opponent might or might not be wearing sturdy clothing of the sort which allows for gi-centric techniques, so it's good to be prepared for either eventuality.



for real fun roll with a gi on, against a no gi opponent.


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## CoachRonald

GreatSayiaman said:


> I was always wondering why there is always a conflict between the practitioners who like the train in the Gi and the Practitioners that only train No Gi. Never understood and never got it.
> 
> I do train in a gym that is primarily No Gi but they started to have Gi classes at the gym. and I have trained at Schools where they do train in Gi and No Gi. Personally I love both aspects of the BJJ Game.
> 
> Anyone know why this is when it comes to this issue within the BJJ community???





GreatSayiaman said:


> I was always wondering why there is always a conflict between the practitioners who like the train in the Gi and the Practitioners that only train No Gi. Never understood and never got it.
> 
> I do train in a gym that is primarily No Gi but they started to have Gi classes at the gym. and I have trained at Schools where they do train in Gi and No Gi. Personally I love both aspects of the BJJ Game.
> 
> Anyone know why this is when it comes to this issue within the BJJ community???



Hi buddy,

In Brazil there were an ancient conflict between gracie schools (Gi) and luta livre ones,  that is a species of submission wretling modality. 

I' m not sure about US,  but I think it's for the same reason,  since the gracie family tried to impose their system over the others current system, by chalanging and defeating figthers representative of these arts.  

However,  nowadays it's been overcome.


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## donald1

The way I see it if your going to a class where people wear a gi you should wear a gi. If you don't have one get one. There are plenty of schools that don't wear gi. I've always worn a uniform. So I rarely put thought to it. Other than the fact that wearing a black gi in the summer time gets really hot really fast.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Why did Chinese wrestling use jacket in the ancient time?

When you have

- no jacket on, you can move around and avoid wrestling, your opponent can't do much about it.
- jacket on, if your opponent grabs on you, it's hard for you to break away, you have to wrestle after that.

Also with jacket, when your opponent throws you, at the end of his throw, he can pull your jack and reduce the falling impact. The jacket is used to protect your opponent from injury.


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## Chester Wright

Typically I prefer No-Gi for a number of reasons. The first being that not everybody that walks into a gym/dojo has a Gi, most everybody does own a pair of shorts and a t-shirt at least to train with. Second being No-Gi usually allows for a wider variety of lower body submissions in competition. Third I am usually less sore after doing No-Gi, while when I work Gi my arms and especially my hands get pretty well wasted after a training sessions.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Chester Wright said:


> Typically I prefer No-Gi for a number of reasons.


The jacket wrestling can make you lazy. If you can use your monster grips to hold on your opponent's jacket, if he cannot break your grips, he cannot apply any technique on you. The problem is, if you just keep doing this, you can develop a strong defense (in jacket wrestling). But you still have not develop any offense skill yet.

It's like the BJJ ground game. You can hold your opponent on the ground but you can't arm bar, leg bar, or choke him. That will not be good either.


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## PiedmontChun

Doing both is good. Whether Judo or BJJ, the gi gives a lot of practice in controlling someone with their own clothing and defending against someone doing the same to you. A lot of technical submissions.
The flipside is training without the gi forces you to gain leverage in slightly different ways, be more explosive, and not rely on clothing grips. Its like learning both sides of a coin.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The jacket wrestling can make you lazy. If you can use your monster grips to hold on your opponent's jacket, if he cannot break your grips, he cannot apply any technique on you. The problem is, if you just keep doing this, you can develop a strong defense (in jacket wrestling). But you still have not develop any offense skill yet.
> 
> It's like the BJJ ground game. You can hold your opponent on the ground but you can't arm bar, leg bar, or choke him. That will not be good either.


Some of the Judo and BJJ uniforms address the issue by making the lapel too thick to grab as easily. The sleeves on most BJJ uniforms are close enough to the arm to also make them harder to hold onto.


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## Hanzou

Both are awesome. Some of the stuff those no-gi guys pull off is a sight to behold. However, there's something almost magical about jiujitsu in the gi, and tying a belt around your waist. I used to love buying a new gi (always white) and putting it on for the first time.

About the ONLY thing I prefer about no gi over the gi is that it's cheaper to buy shirts and shorts than it is to buy a good gi. Considering that I had to wash my gi almost every time I practiced made me yearn to be in a 10th planet gym.


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## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Both are awesome. Some of the stuff those no-gi guys pull off is a sight to behold. However, there's something almost magical about jiujitsu in the gi, and tying a belt around your waist. I used to love buying a new gi (always white) and putting it on for the first time.
> 
> About the ONLY thing I prefer about no gi over the gi is that it's cheaper to buy shirts and shorts than it is to buy a good gi. Considering that I had to wash my gi almost every time I practiced made me yearn to be in a 10th planet gym.


I have to say I'm with you on the feel of putting on a gi. I could train in street clothes, but I just like putting on my gi too much.


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## quasar44

No-gi is more mma version . More Easy to learn because they gut many things out !!!

GI is more complex . It has insane amount of submissions and positions . Gi is more like physics 

No Gi is more athletic ability and they teach more leg locks !!


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## Gerry Seymour

quasar44 said:


> No-gi is more mma version . More Easy to learn because they gut many things out !!!
> 
> GI is more complex . It has insane amount of submissions and positions . Gi is more like physics
> 
> No Gi is more athletic ability and they teach more leg locks !!


Gi and no-gi may or may not have that different a focus. The main difference is - as the "no-gi" term suggests - the presence of the gi. That gi changes many things in small but significant ways. It provides more to grab on (and more to need to defend against), a few cloth-based techniques (like a scarf choke - I've long since forgotten the technique name), more friction, etc.


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## joemoplata

Good gyms are doing both.


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## dvcochran

joemoplata said:


> Good gyms are doing both.



There is absolutely nothing wrong with schools/gyms doing both but there has to be a dividing line. This reminds of what has happened to a lot of TKD. Much of it has became so competition focused there are original training/tools/skills not being taught in some dojangs.
Competition is great; it was a huge part of my life but there are fundamental aspects that get lost or never learned if competition is the only focus.
No style covers everything; that is why there are many different styles. When tenured people within a specific style can see deficits within the teaching methods of certain groups within That style, that is a indicator of potential problems.
It sounds like the Martial Art vs. Martial Sport argument.


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## Kung Fu Wang

quasar44 said:


> GI is more complex .


IMO, non-jacket wrestling is more complex.

For example,

With jacket, you can do foot sweep by holding on your opponent's sleeve and upper collar.

Without jacket, you have to train:

  - Upper arm push. shoulder pull sweep.
  - Neck wiping sweep.
  - Elbow locking sweep.
  - Palm lift upper arm sweep.
  - Eyebrow wiping sweep.
- ...

Without the wrestling jacket, you have to find many different contact points. This make the throwing art more complicate.



joemoplata said:


> Good gyms are doing both.


One should learn both:

- Winter time ski slope SD skill, and
- Summer time sand beach SD skill.


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## drop bear

No gi in summer. Gi in winter


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, non-jacket wrestling is more complex.
> 
> For example,
> 
> With jacket, you can do foot sweep by holding on your opponent's sleeve and upper collar.
> 
> Without jacket, you have to train:
> 
> - Upper arm push. shoulder pull sweep.
> - Neck wiping sweep.
> - Elbow locking sweep.
> - Palm lift upper arm sweep.
> - Eyebrow wiping sweep.
> - ...
> 
> Without the wrestling jacket, you have to find many different contact points. This make the throwing art more complicate.
> 
> 
> One should learn both:
> 
> - Winter time ski slope SD skill, and
> - Summer time sand beach SD skill.


Offense is more complex in no-gi. Defense is more complex with the jacket. Best to practice both.


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## quasar44

I don’t have time or strength to do both 
I only do no-gi


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## quasar44

I will always be a white level lol


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## quasar44

The judo foot sweeps look cool !!
I just don’t like throws as I don’t enjoy being slammed like that .
A double leg is very safe 
Being picked up and slammed at my age maybe too much


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## quasar44

I tried a judo throw once and I injured my biceps for 2 months


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## Gerry Seymour

quasar44 said:


> I tried a judo throw once and I injured my biceps for 2 months


Then you probably did it wrong.


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## quasar44

gpseymour said:


> Then you probably did it wrong.



because the coach could not teach judo


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## Gerry Seymour

quasar44 said:


> because the coach could not teach judo


That's a possibility.


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## Danny T

quasar44 said:


> No-gi is more mma version . More Easy to learn because they gut many things out !!!
> 
> GI is more complex . It has insane amount of submissions and positions . Gi is more like physics
> 
> No Gi is more athletic ability and they teach more leg locks !!


Read post #20 on this thread by Tony Dismukes


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## quasar44

And gi totally kills my fingers 
My fingers suffer badly


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## Tez3

quasar44 said:


> I just don’t like throws as I don’t enjoy being slammed like that .
> 
> Being picked up and slammed at my age maybe too much





quasar44 said:


> because the coach could not teach judo





quasar44 said:


> And gi totally kills my fingers
> My fingers suffer badly




What exactly are you training? It sounds as if you aren't being taught techniques properly unless you are just trying them on your own? Learning to breakfall is invaluable, not just for martial arts, it's very handy if you can instinctively breakfall when it's icy etc.


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## Hanzou

I think one interesting side effect of gi-based grappling is the potential damage it can do to your fingers from all the gripping and grip fighting that you have to do. I’ve seen the hands of competitive Bjj and Judo fighters who work primarily in the gi, and their fingers are mangled.

No-gi allows more universal grips that deal less long term damage. If you’re an artist, musician, writer, or someone who depends on their fingers, that’s definitely something to consider.


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## dvcochran

Hanzou said:


> I think one interesting side effect of gi-based grappling is the potential damage it can do to your fingers from all the gripping and grip fighting that you have to do. I’ve seen the hands of competitive Bjj and Judo fighters who work primarily in the gi, and their fingers are mangled.
> 
> No-gi allows more universal grips that deal less long term damage. If you’re an artist, musician, writer, or someone who depends on their fingers, that’s definitely something to consider.


I am in a up fighting style and my right thumb has been broken once and dislocated three times from hooking it on the sleeve of a dobok (gi). Yes, it was mostly my fault but not sure being a grappling is a main factor in your argument.


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## Hanzou

dvcochran said:


> I am in a up fighting style and my right thumb has been broken once and dislocated three times from hooking it on the sleeve of a dobok (gi). Yes, it was mostly my fault but not sure being a grappling is a main factor in your argument.



Up fighting style as in Stand up fighting style right?

I'm talking about this;

7 Things to Consider About Finger Damage & BJJ | JitsGrips

Finger Pain in BJJ and What to Do About It


Back to the topic on No-Gi vs Gi; Rash guards can be used for other sports, and you can wear them in non-training places and people won't look at you funny. Advantage: No-gi.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> No-gi allows more universal grips that deal less long term damage.


When I grab on your jacket, if you keep rotate your arm to wrap my hand inside your jacket that I can't pull it out, it can hurt my fingers big time. In jacket wrestling, It's not illegal to do so.


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## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I grab on your jacket, if you keep rotate your arm to wrap my hand inside your jacket that I can't pull it out, it can hurt my fingers big time. In jacket wrestling, It's not illegal to do so.



From experience, I've had occasions where I had to switch to wrestling grips and avoid gi grips after long training sessions. So yes, finger pain is a real issue.


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## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> I think one interesting side effect of gi-based grappling is the potential damage it can do to your fingers from all the gripping and grip fighting that you have to do. I’ve seen the hands of competitive Bjj and Judo fighters who work primarily in the gi, and their fingers are mangled.
> 
> No-gi allows more universal grips that deal less long term damage. If you’re an artist, musician, writer, or someone who depends on their fingers, that’s definitely something to consider.


I hadn’t thought of that. I’ve had some finger injuries over the years, but most weren’t anything you’d see later. I don’t remember any among folks I trained Judo with, but that was a long time ago, and I was pretty young - not really paying attention to that long of thing. With the grips that wrap in the fabric, I can see that being an issue.


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> With the grips that wrap in the fabric, I can see that being an issue.


This is why short finger nails is a must. Many people had their finger nails been torn apart in jacket wrestling.


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## dvcochran

dvcochran said:


> I am in a up fighting style and my right thumb has been broken once and dislocated three times from hooking it on the sleeve of a dobok (gi). Yes, it was mostly my fault but not sure being a grappling is a main factor in your argument.



Check that; I should have said left thumb as I am left handed and biased.


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## dunc

Damage to the fingers is definitely an issue with grappling in a gi
I’ve found releasing early when someone is stripping my grips to have made a big difference
You do still get some wear and tear damage from fighting to finish chokes, holding onto grips etc, but the big change for me was the one above


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> From experience, I've had occasions where I had to switch to wrestling grips and avoid gi grips after long training sessions. So yes, finger pain is a real issue.



I mostly pinch the gi. If they really want it back they can have it


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## Hanzou

dunc said:


> Damage to the fingers is definitely an issue with grappling in a gi
> I’ve found releasing early when someone is stripping my grips to have made a big difference
> You do still get some wear and tear damage from fighting to finish chokes, holding onto grips etc, but the big change for me was the one above





drop bear said:


> I mostly pinch the gi. If they really want it back they can have it



Unfortunately it's hard to give up a grip when you've fought for it, so I've definitely made the mistake of hanging on for far too long, which leads to some pain later.

The collar and the bow and arrow choke were big pains in the **** for me based on finger pain. Also trying to perform grip sleeve-based guards also sucked after awhile to the point where I started doing no-gi variations for those guards. Like I said, I'm rapidly heading to the point where I might just go no-gi grips for everything whether I'm in the gi or not. I was able to avoid the cauliflower ears, so I'm going to make every effort to avoid having jacked up fingers.


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## dunc

Yeah
I don’t do bow and arrow (my teacher doesn’t believe in it) and find my fingers are fine with the deep collar grip style of chokes and controls (which I use a lot)
For open guard I try to get to the collar pretty quickly which again seems to minimise the stress on the fingers


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## Kung Fu Wang

drop bear said:


> I mostly pinch the gi. If they really want it back they can have it


You are talking about in the middle of the grip fight. When you obtain your grips, you move in, and apply your throw.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> Unfortunately it's hard to give up a grip when you've fought for it,


Agree! It's very difficult to create a chance that you have 1 grip on your opponent while your opponent has no grip on you. Since your grip can pull your opponent around, you don't want to give up your grip that easy.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why short finger nails is a must. Many people had their finger nails been torn apart in jacket wrestling.


We always kept them trimmed just to keep from cutting each other with them.


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## dunc

dunc said:


> Damage to the fingers is definitely an issue with grappling in a gi
> I’ve found releasing early when someone is stripping my grips to have made a big difference
> You do still get some wear and tear damage from fighting to finish chokes, holding onto grips etc, but the big change for me was the one above



Whilst I've very much developed a "game" that minimises injury and wear and tear as much as possible there are a few chokes that use that can still mess with your fingers
Collar chokes from the back, but given you've got all the way there it's kinda worth the water and tear on the fingers
Ezekiel can mess your fingers up if your hand is misaligned, so if I've not quite set it up correctly then nowadays I just threaten it and surf the reaction to something else
Loop chokes, but generally if they're not on you can switch into a reversal/sweep anyways


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