# Mou Meng Gung Fu: The Nameless Art



## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 11, 2017)

Mou Meng Kuen, also known as Wú-míng ch‘üan or Wumingquan (translated to Standard English as "Nameless Fist" or "Nameless Boxing") falls in the category of non-classical martial arts. Wumingquan is a modernized self-defense system, not to be confused with Wuxingquan ("Shapeless Boxing") and other older traditional Chinese martial arts with similar names or meanings. For over a decade, this Gung Fu system existed only as a nameless series of personal experiences, training experiments and knowledge exchanges between several martial artists with different ranks and styles all originating from different schools. Only recently have I actually started to refer to this no-name skill as Mou Meng Gung Fu, after some friends of mine suggested that I give it a name. Mou Meng Kuen or Nameless Boxing is a very basic self-defense system which promotes physical fitness and longevity. Nameless Boxing is not an all-encompassing martial art, nor was it designed to deal with every aspect of martial arts training. Nameless Boxing does not require much physical strength, flexibility, training time or training space to learn. This system was developed to accommodate every student regardless of age, gender, height, weight or disability. The techniques were designed to be simple and easy to learn in a short time period. Nameless Boxing incorporates kicking, boxing and wrestling techniques with an emphasis on stand-up fighting or kickboxing. The techniques in this system are similar to those found in other Gung Fu systems, but are actually a conglomeration of elements taken from several different styles including even some techniques from non-Chinese martial arts. Hei Gung or Qigong training is a big part of Mou Meng Gung Fu along with proper dieting, meditation and Hatha Yoga exercise. The stances and footwork in this system are similar to what you might find in southern Shaolin short-fist Chinese Boxing styles, and in fact you could probably even classify Mou Meng Gung Fu as a southern style. There are no ranks or trophies in this system. Practitioners of Wumingquan are refered to simply as brothers and sisters, juniors and seniors. There are no "masters" in this style of Gung Fu, as I the founder do not claim to be a master of martial arts, nor do I have any students apart from my own family and friends. I will most likely add more to the description of Nameless Boxing as time goes on, but right now I just wanted to present my art to the rest of the internet MA circle since there's really no other mention of it elsewhere that I am aware of. If anyone has any questions about Mou Meng Gung Fu or about myself, feel free to ask and I will try to provide answers to the best of my ability. Thank you again for allowing me to discuss my style.


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## CB Jones (Apr 11, 2017)

Since this is your system that you founded.  If you have any videos that you can post...it might be interesting to watch and be helpful to to posters grasp what your system is.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 11, 2017)

I do have many various home training videos and pictures on my phone and I don't mind sharing them as soon as I learn how. I'm still new to the site and still rather new to this phone but once I figure it all out then sure, it would be my pleasure. (I tried to upload a video just now but it said the file was too large). One of the biggest things that others will notice from my videos and pictures is the variety of different training methods. Sometimes the training seems very slow and relaxed like the internal schools and other traditional Chinese martial arts with their form training and sensitivity drills. But other videos will show a different side to this style with more emphasis on freestyle sparring or shadow boxing drills. Wumingquan also incorporates boxing drills, kicking drills and wrestling drills which are sometimes practiced altogether but sometimes also practiced seperately. I will try to upload some of these things as soon as I get a chance.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 12, 2017)

Still no videos, but here perhaps some photos? These pictures show me and my friends practicing boxing, kicking, kickboxing and wrestling drills. All of these are incorporated in Wumingquan, the art of namelessness. (Apart from the high kick, I did that just for fun).


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 12, 2017)

I agree with CB Jones, a demonstration video would really help us get a better idea of the system you have developed. In the meantime, I have a question. There are thousands of different Martial Arts, And each one has the same basic punches and kicks. What separates your system from theirs? Usually what separates Chinese styles is the philosophy they follow, and then the techniques are simply a way of expressing that philosophy. For example, both Northern Shaolin and Wing Chun have the same basic kicks and punches, but they use those techniques completely differently to reflect the philosophy of the style. 

So, my question is, what is the philosophy of your style?


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 12, 2017)

Well, my philosophy is the same as others, just like my punches and my kicks. I just chose to call it Gung Fu to be honest, because I like Chinese martial arts. (And because I used to practice CMA, moreso than other styles). Wumingquan incorporates a lot of the same techniques, methods and theories found in the southern Chinese Boxing systems in the Hong Kong area. I suppose you could attach it to their Taoist or Buddhist philosophies. As for me personally, I was influenced by Bruce Lee's philosophy, like everyone else.


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## Headhunter (Apr 12, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Well, my philosophy is the same as others, just like my punches and my kicks. I just chose to call it Gung Fu to be honest, because I like Chinese martial arts. (And because I used to practice CMA, moreso than other styles). Wumingquan incorporates a lot of the same techniques, methods and theories found in the southern Chinese Boxing systems in the Hong Kong area. I suppose you could attach it to their philosophies. As for me personally, I was influenced by Bruce Lee's philosophy.


Your philosophy is "the same as others" your moves are from other martial arts so what makes your style...yours, to me it sounds like you're using other styles and just giving it a different name. Forgive me if I'm wrong but there doesn't seem to be anything unique about your style. Feel free to correct me


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 12, 2017)

Well, that's the thing about my style. It's not unique. It's not new, except for the name of it. I coined that term just recently. But the style itself isn't new, it's been in practice now for over a decade. And there's nothing unique about it. Now if I really wanted to, I suppose I could present a crazy argument that my style is "like JKD but with TCMA forms" but then that still wouldn't make it very unique now would it? So really, the only thing unique about my style is it's name and the fact that it's not Jun Fan.


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## KangTsai (Apr 12, 2017)

What an oxymoron of a name.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 12, 2017)

Therein lies the philosophy.


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 12, 2017)

So, this is less of a formal system and more a summation of your own fighting style. You've taken those elements from other systems that you liked or suited you, and put them all together. While this is quite a common phenomenon (hell, pretty much every MMA and UFC fighter does this), I don't think anyone has actually bothered to name their style of fighting or teach it to others in a formalised way. You quote it as being a "modernised self-defence" system, which to me links it to systems like Krav Maga and Systema which were specifically designed for "real world combat". Have you tested your system in the field?


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 12, 2017)

Some of the CMA elements in Wumingquan include:

- Siu Nim Tau
- Dok Gerk Siu Nim Tau
- Jee Yau Bok Gik
- Chi Sau
- Chi Gerk
- Gor Sau
- Lin Sil Die Dar
- Chung Seen
- Chum Jong
- Ji Gok Geng
- Duen Geng
- Tui Sau
- Bong An Chi Sao
- Don Chi Gerk
- Sui Jow
- Ying Jow / Fu Jow
- Chui Ying
- Churng Wai
- Da Sa Bao
- Dit Yeung Juk
- Faan Sau
- Pak Sao Ngoy Da
- Jik Chung Choi
- San Sau


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 12, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> So, this is less of a formal system and more a summation of your own fighting style. You've taken those elements from other systems that you liked or suited you, and put them all together. While this is quite a common phenomenon (hell, pretty much every MMA and UFC fighter does this), I don't think anyone has actually bothered to name their style of fighting or teach it to others in a formalised way. You quote it as being a "modernised self-defence" system, which to me links it to systems like Krav Maga and Systema which were specifically designed for "real world combat". Have you tested your system in the field?



Which field? I have tested it repeatedly in sparring, modifying things ever so slightly as I progressed. In fact I'm still modifying things as I go. Sometimes it seems like there's always something to learn. As I learn, I grow. As I grow, I change. That too has much to do with Wumingquan's philosophy. However, the core foundation of Wumingquan remains very simple and unchanging. The techniques are very basic beginner level. Somewhat similar to Krav Maga in a little way, but different.

I have only been to three sport fighting events in my life. I earned a 1st place trophy for Sanshou kickboxing, a 2nd place trophy in amateur Western boxing, and a 3rd place trophy in Judo wrestling. That was between the years of 2005 and 2010, if my memory serves. Other than that and a few bare-knuckle street fights here and there, I've never really had to use my style in the field to be honest.


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 12, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Which field? I have tested it repeatedly in sparring, modifying things ever so slightly as I progressed. In fact I'm still modifying things as I go. Sometimes it seems like there's always something to learn. As I learn, I grow. As I grow, I change. That too has much to do with Wumingquan's philosophy. However, the core foundation of Wumingquan remains very simple and unchanging. The techniques are very basic beginner level.
> 
> I have only been to three sport fighting events in my life. I earned a 1st place trophy for Sanshou kickboxing, a 2nd place trophy in amateur Western boxing, and a 3rd place trophy in Judo wrestling. That was between the years of 2005 and 2010, if my memory serves. Other than that and a few bare-knuckle street fights here and there, I've never really had to use my style in the field to be honest.



Ok, so let me ask you this. If you were to advertise your system to the public, would you market it as a self-defence system, or a sports system?


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 12, 2017)

I don't think I'll ever teach it openly to the public, to be honest. But if I had to give it a label, I would definitely market it as a self-defense system.


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 12, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I don't think I'll ever teach it openly to the public, to be honest. But if I had to give it a label, I would definitely market it as a self-defense class.



Well, thank you for your honesty, something that appears rarely in today's world. I respect you for that.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 12, 2017)

Thank you for your interest. And for the opportunity to speak about my martial art.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 12, 2017)

The reason I say that my style is self-defense system is because we practice techniques which are illegal in most sport fighting competitions. Mou Meng Gung Fu (or Wu Ming Kung Fu, whichever you prefer) utilizes snake-like finger strikes, tiger-like raking nails and eagle-like gouging or clawing techniques as well as some dragon-like elbow and knee strikes targeted at the groin area or the back of the head. There are also some mantis-like trapping and bone breaking methods incorporated into this system as well, while our footwork and defensive techniques are almost crane-like in nature. Another reason I decided to call it Wumingquan, for its Chinese roots. Wumingquan favors the usefulness of any means to defend oneself, even to the extent of grabbing hair or clothes. Brass knuckles, electrical stun guns,  pepper spray, knives and firearms  are also not out of the equation in this style. We don't train in weapon forms or drills per say but we do train with weapons. We also keep our shoes on most of the time when we train, unless we're on the mats. Another thing people will notice is that this style does not have height or weight divisions, nor does it separate gender.


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## oaktree (Apr 12, 2017)

There is a movie called that. 
功夫无名_百度百科

My style is called 变态八卦掌 at least my wife says so.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 12, 2017)

my question is why.   let be honest, by your own admission your art is basic and nothing special.  mediocre at best.  you say you are not going to teach what you do publicly, so why are you putting a name on it and coming to a martial art forum to introduce it and talk about it?  it kinda screams ego and possible narcissist to me.  im all for someone creating or doing their own thing, thats what i am doing.  but i have more than 30 years training in traditional systems and i felt i could bring something of value to the table.  i suspect your rather young compared to some of us old folk here and thats great but i hope you realize that by doing your own mediocre style you will never rise above that level of mediocrity.   why not train in a system you think is really great?  at least you would get really good at something.


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## DanT (Apr 12, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Mou Meng Kuen, also known as Wú-míng ch‘üan or Wumingquan (translated to Standard English as "Nameless Fist" or "Nameless Boxing") falls in the category of non-classical martial arts. Wumingquan is a modernized self-defense system, not to be confused with Wuxingquan ("Shapeless Boxing") and other older traditional Chinese martial arts with similar names or meanings. For over a decade, this Gung Fu system existed only as a nameless series of personal experiences, training experiments and knowledge exchanges between several martial artists with different ranks and styles all originating from different schools. Only recently have I actually started to refer to this no-name skill as Mou Meng Gung Fu, after some friends of mine suggested that I give it a name. Mou Meng Kuen or Nameless Boxing is a very basic self-defense system which promotes physical fitness and longevity. Nameless Boxing is not an all-encompassing martial art, nor was it designed to deal with every aspect of martial arts training. Nameless Boxing does not require much physical strength, flexibility, training time or training space to learn. This system was developed to accommodate every student regardless of age, gender, height, weight or disability. The techniques were designed to be simple and easy to learn in a short time period. Nameless Boxing incorporates kicking, boxing and wrestling techniques with an emphasis on stand-up fighting or kickboxing. The techniques in this system are similar to those found in other Gung Fu systems, but are actually a conglomeration of elements taken from several different styles including even some techniques from non-Chinese martial arts. Hei Gung or Qigong training is a big part of Mou Meng Gung Fu along with proper dieting, meditation and Hatha Yoga exercise. The stances and footwork in this system are similar to what you might find in southern Shaolin short-fist Chinese Boxing styles, and in fact you could probably even classify Mou Meng Gung Fu as a southern style. There are no ranks or trophies in this system. Practitioners of Wumingquan are refered to simply as brothers and sisters, juniors and seniors. There are no "masters" in this style of Gung Fu, as I the founder do not claim to be a master of martial arts, nor do I have any students apart from my own family and friends. I will most likely add more to the description of Nameless Boxing as time goes on, but right now I just wanted to present my art to the rest of the internet MA circle since there's really no other mention of it elsewhere that I am aware of. If anyone has any questions about Mou Meng Gung Fu or about myself, feel free to ask and I will try to provide answers to the best of my ability. Thank you again for allowing me to discuss my style.


What styles have you personally studied and for how long have you studied them and under whom have you studied?


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 12, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> my question is why.   let be honest, by your own admission your art is basic and nothing special.  mediocre at best.  you say you are not going to teach what you do publicly, so why are you putting a name on it and coming to a martial art forum to introduce it and talk about it?  it kinda screams ego and possible narcissist to me.  im all for someone creating or doing their own thing, thats what i am doing.  but i have more than 30 years training in traditional systems and i felt i could bring something of value to the table.  i suspect your rather young compared to some of us old folk here and thats great but i hope you realize that by doing your own mediocre style you will never rise above that level of mediocrity.   why not train in a system you think is really great?  at least you would get really good at something.



Thank you for your response. I'll try to answer your question the best I can.

I no longer see styles, so I no longer think in terms of "this style is better than that style" or what have you. I'm not really in the martial arts to compete, I'm just in it to train and better myself. It's a very personal thing for me, which is why I don't teach publicly. And I will be the first to tell you that my style isn't everyone's cup of tea. I'm not trying to build a clan like the Gracies, or go out and look for fights against other martial artists. My system offers basic self-defense training. Nothing more and nothing less. The beauty of my style is in its simplicity. I never said it was all-encompassing or the best style out there. My style wasn't designed to make people the best. It was designed to make people better and to arm them with something so that they are not completely defenseless if they ever find themselves in a situation. I encourage everyone to go out and learn new styles and new methods, because my art is open to learning new things. It's very simple and open to improvement. But I also encourage people to master the basics before attempting to go out and learn new things, and that's really all I have to offer is the fundamental basics of self-defense. If someone were to learn only a single takedown, but then practice that one takedown for several years until they have mastered it, then what good will ten thousand punches and kicks be against that one takedown? That's kind of the philosophy that I have when I train in martial arts. I hope that answers your question.

The reason I decided to join this MA forum is to be around people that I can identity with. It's fun to talk about martial arts. And of course, yes, I wanted to present my style to the MA circle so that others will get a better understanding of me as well. I couldn't come in as a TCMA practitioner, or as a MMA practitioner, or as a JKD practitioner or what have you. So I came forward as a Wumingquan practitioner. This is my style, as opposed to what they do.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 12, 2017)

DanT said:


> What styles have you personally studied and for how long have you studied them and under whom have you studied?



Thank you for your response.

I have about 25+ years of training off and on in different martial arts circles around the globe. There are times when I would study hard and train very hard, and then there were times when I stopped training for a while, then went back to training hard. Sometimes I was invited to different schools to train in different styles. I have a lot of good friends in the MA world, not all of them have the same style or teachings. So my art doesn't really have a linear family tree or lineage like some other styles do. Everyone I trained with has had something new and different to offer as far as my own personal development is concerned. Sometimes I train with masters or even grandmasters, and sometimes I train with beginners and those with no experience. Now the actual foundation of Wumingquan was established about 10 years ago, but at that time it had no name, we just called it "martial arts" even though we had our own curricula at that time. It wasn't until December 2017 that I actually coined the term Wumingquan in reference to this style. Since then, that's what we call it now.


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## DanT (Apr 12, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Thank you for your response.
> 
> I have about 25+ years of training off and on in different martial arts circles around the globe. There are times when I would study hard and train very hard, and then there were times when I stopped training for a while, then went back to training hard. Sometimes I was invited to different schools to train in different styles. I have a lot of good friends in the MA world, not all of them have the same style or teachings. So my art doesn't really have a linear family tree or lineage like some other styles do. Everyone I trained with has had something new and different to offer as far as my own personal development is concerned. Sometimes I train with masters or even grandmasters, and sometimes I train with beginners and those with no experience. Now the actual foundation of Wumingquan was established about 10 years ago, but at that time it had no name, we just called it "martial arts" even though we had our own curricula at that time. It wasn't until December 2017 that I actually coined the term Wumingquan in reference to this style. Since then, that's what we call it now.


Very nice. May I ask which styles specifically you incorporated into Wumingquan?


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 12, 2017)

DanT said:


> Very nice. May I ask which styles specifically you incorporated into Wumingquan?



I didn't incorporate any styles into Wumingquan, only the techniques. Wumingquan has only one form or taolu. Everything else is mostly two-man drills and sparring. So the answer is not as straight forward as one might expect, because there were a lot of different styles and teachings over the years. Wumingquan borrows ideas from a lot of different styles, not always evenly either. Some styles will have had more influence than others, and that will reflect in the way a Wumingquan practitioner focusses himself and trains. But as far as the very basics and what we have written, Wumingquan in its current state was influenced by TCMA, MMA, JKD, Judo or Aikido and bare-knuckle boxing. That's not all there is to it, but of all the styles I came into contact with, I would have to say that those 4-5 styles probably had the most influence. TCMA being mostly a reference to the southern Shaolin short-fist styles like Wing Chun Kuen and other styles associated with the Five Elders.

On a side note, it's always funny when I train with my buddies and people approach us wanting to learn Wumingquan, because they always go to the biggest person in our group. The biggest person in my circle right now is a man who weighs about 400 lbs. Everyone always thinks he's the headmaster because he's so big and in Wumingquan we don't wear any special uniforms or belts to distinguish ranks, so people tend to automatically assume that the biggest student must be the headmaster. We've actually had some fun with people because of that. I'm rather small compared to some of the guys I train with, so it throws people off when they walk up and discover that the 400 lbs wrestler is actually a student of the 140 lbs. kickboxer. It makes for some fun pranks. Good laughs. I love my family.


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## jobo (Apr 12, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> my question is why.   let be honest, by your own admission your art is basic and nothing special.  mediocre at best.  you say you are not going to teach what you do publicly, so why are you putting a name on it and coming to a martial art forum to introduce it and talk about it?  it kinda screams ego and possible narcissist to me.  im all for someone creating or doing their own thing, thats what i am doing.  but i have more than 30 years training in traditional systems and i felt i could bring something of value to the table.  i suspect your rather young compared to some of us old folk here and thats great but i hope you realize that by doing your own mediocre style you will never rise above that level of mediocrity.   why not train in a system you think is really great?  at least you would get really good at something.


I think tha
t's a bit harsh to be honest. He hasnt described his system as having mediocrity, rather its a simple system to provide self defence taken from the best other styles have to offer. If I were to be critic of traditional martial art for self defence, it would be that there is to much flim flam, to many graceful movements with no payoff , to many variations' on the same thing, techniques that take years to master, if you ever get there, when you want protection now. You could cheerfully throw away 90% of ( nearly )any of them and actually have a better system for self defence


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 12, 2017)

jobo said:


> I think tha
> t's a bit harsh to be honest. He hasnt described his system as having mediocrity, rather its a simple system to provide self defence taken from the best other styles have to offer. If I were to be critic of traditional martial art for self defence, it would be that there is to much flim flam, to many graceful movements with no payoff , to many variations' on the same thing, techniques that take years to master, if you ever get there, when you want protection now. You could cheerfully throw away 90% of ( nearly )any of them and actually have a better system for self defence


I'm not trying to be harsh,  just honest. If he is enjoying what he is doing then that's great.  But by his descriptions and answers I'm reading mediocre, I'm not feeling excited or particularly interested. This may have more to do with personality or writing skill then the art itself but the posts by the OP are not really answering the questions. The replies seem wishy washy. To me it feels like the art is most likely a reflection of his answers , not well organized and thought out.


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 12, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I'm not trying to be harsh,  just honest. If he is enjoying what he is doing then that's great.  But by his descriptions and answers I'm reading mediocre, I'm not feeling excited or particularly interested. This may have more to do with personality or writing skill then the art itself but the posts by the OP are not really answering the questions. The replies seem wishy washy. To me it feels like the art is most likely a reflection of his answers , not well organized and thought out.



You kmow, when I first read the OP I had similar thoughts, but after reflecting on it I realised that it doesn't matter. As the OP said, he's not looking to market this to the masses, or make it seem like the best thing since sliced bread. The style doesn't seem impressive or exciting because it's not meant to be. It is simply the culmination of one person's Martial Arts experience. 

I actually really admire the OP for this, because he has taken his years of traditional Martial Arts training and created his own fighting style from it. This to me is a much purer form of Martial Arts than many traditional styles because it is adapted to the person using it.


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## oaktree (Apr 12, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> You kmow, when I first read the OP I had similar thoughts, but after reflecting on it I realised that it doesn't matter. As the OP said, he's not looking to market this to the masses, or make it seem like the best thing since sliced bread. The style doesn't seem impressive or exciting because it's not meant to be. It is simply the culmination of one person's Martial Arts experience.
> 
> I actually really admire the OP for this, because he has taken his years of traditional Martial Arts training and created his own fighting style from it. This to me is a much purer form of Martial Arts than many traditional styles because it is adapted to the person using it.


Um for someone not about marketing and all that his avatar seems to do the opposite I mean my avatar is of two Asian lesbians kissing but that doesn't mean I am advertising Asian lesbians....well not yet at least


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## Steve (Apr 12, 2017)

I think we have some narcissists on this forum.   What's the problem with one more?


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 13, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I'm not trying to be harsh,  just honest. If he is enjoying what he is doing then that's great.  But by his descriptions and answers I'm reading mediocre, I'm not feeling excited or particularly interested. This may have more to do with personality or writing skill then the art itself but the posts by the OP are not really answering the questions. The replies seem wishy washy. To me it feels like the art is most likely a reflection of his answers , not well organized and thought out.



Is it really that I'm not answering questions though? Or am I not giving the answers that you expected? Actually I appreciate your honesty and straight forwardness. I'm not even offended by it. I apologize if I sound defensive or even passive. The truth is, my style is just that, another style. Sure I could be boastful and try to put on this persona like I'm the King of Gung Fu or the Champion of Hong Kong, but I would be lying if I said that. To be really real with you and also with myself, I must admit that my style isn't that advanced. In fact, the very thing you look down on is the very thing we look up to in this system. Someone described it earlier as an oxymoronic name for a style. But it's that very nothingness and somethingness that describes my art. Simplicity is the goal in this method of training. For other schools, it might be too simple. But for us, it's the foundation we are most concerned with.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 13, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Um for someone not about marketing and all that his avatar seems to do the opposite I mean my avatar is of two Asian lesbians kissing but that doesn't mean I am advertising Asian lesbians....well not yet at least



Well you are right to say that I am somewhat marketing my martial art, in a way. I do not own a business licence. I don't own a school. I don't teach publicly, or to outsiders with no previous martial arts experience apart from my own family and friends. But by joining this MA circle, I had no choice but to market myself because that's the whole point of being here. I didn't want to lie to anyone and claim lineage to anyone or act like I'm a master of some style that's already on the board, because I'm not really a master of any of your styles. I've probably seen them or trained with people who practice those styles, but I am not a master. The only thing I've mastered is myself, and my own style. But even that too is debatable. So really, it's just a matter of perception. And you are correct to say that my avatar is an advertising logo. You are incorrect to say that yours is not. But I'm not judgmental anyway so it doesn't really matter. I like criticism. It helps me to reflect.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 13, 2017)

Still no luck with the videos, but here are some more pictures for you all to look at. Unlike the last pictures, here we are practicing bare-knuckle with shoes on. You might notice the difference in the style too. The first set of pictures I showed you are more like MMA sparring. These ones are more like TCMA sparring. Both ways are incorporated in Wu Ming Kung Fu. (I apologize for the blurriness, but this was unrehearsed live-action freestyle sparring and the camera wasn't fast enough to capture every motion).


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 13, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> You kmow, when I first read the OP I had similar thoughts, but after reflecting on it I realised that it doesn't matter. As the OP said, he's not looking to market this to the masses, or make it seem like the best thing since sliced bread. The style doesn't seem impressive or exciting because it's not meant to be. It is simply the culmination of one person's Martial Arts experience.
> 
> I actually really admire the OP for this, because he has taken his years of traditional Martial Arts training and created his own fighting style from it. This to me is a much purer form of Martial Arts than many traditional styles because it is adapted to the person using it.


I agree with you. I have done something similar, and when I see someone else being creative I get excited and want to engage  with them and find out all about it.  But I'm not getting that dynamic. After 33 posts in the thread I still don't know anything about the OP and his art. Or why he created it rather than study an existing style, his motivations or his own personal philosophy about martial arts.


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## Buka (Apr 13, 2017)

Steve said:


> I think we have some narcissists on this forum.   What's the problem with one more?



Can we get shirts?


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## oaktree (Apr 13, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Well you are right to say that I am somewhat marketing my martial art, in a way. I do not own a business licence. I don't own a school. I don't teach publicly, or to outsiders with no previous martial arts experience apart from my own family and friends. But by joining this MA circle, I had no choice but to market myself because that's the whole point of being here. I didn't want to lie to anyone and claim lineage to anyone or act like I'm a master of some style that's already on the board, because I'm not really a master of any of your styles. I've probably seen them or trained with people who practice those styles, but I am not a master. The only thing I've mastered is myself, and my own style. But even that too is debatable. So really, it's just a matter of perception. And you are correct to say that my avatar is an advertising logo. You are incorrect to say that yours is not. But I'm not judgmental anyway so it doesn't really matter. I like criticism. It helps me to reflect.


What I mean is this, You created a name(though for someone who understands Chinese I think it sounds cartoonish) You created a logo and call it 无为non classical martial arts the nameless art. 17 years on martial art forums and I have seen many people come on who say they created their own art and though you do not own a business or teach outsiders who is to say down the line a message on a forum 5 years from now we will be asked is the Mou meng gungfu dvd set worth purchasing? Maybe I am more jaded having been through these types of discussions before especially with people who use weird Chinese names and or Japanese names for their made up style.


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## DanT (Apr 13, 2017)

What techniques form the core or wumingquan? For example I might say for Wing Chun:

1.Straigh Punch
2. Lap Da
3. Pak Da
4. Tan Da
5. Front kick

Or for N.Shaolin:

1. Straight punch
2. Hook Punch
3. Windmill Punch
4. Double Gorilla Punch
5. Roundhouse Kick

What about for wumingquan what are the 5 core techniques would you say?


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## mograph (Apr 13, 2017)

Have you created a YouTube or Vimeo channel? You could then post the links here.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 13, 2017)

There will never be Mou Meng Gung Fu DVD's for sale. Mou Meng Gung Fu is not a professional business, and although students could probably learn a lot about this style by watching videos or looking at pictures and reading books, etc. I feel like the only way to truly learn any martial art is through personal training. Every single practitioner in this system has trained with me in person. Not a single penny or profit has been made at this time in over 10 years. Here we do not judge people by their abilities or their wallets. You can not buy my system. The only way to learn it is in person. We judge people by their moral character and eagerness to become better. For that reason, Mou Meng Gung Fu will never be taught openly to the public.

Some people might say that after 30+ posts in this thread, they still don't know anything about me or my style. I tried to upload some pictures for everyone to give you all a better idea about myself and my style. I'm not exactly sure what else you were expecting to see or learn. You can't expect me to just give my style away to people I barely know or have never even met before. I'm no Einstein but I'm not that foolish. Let's be fair. I do not have a YouTube channel or anything like that. Someone asked for some pictures and I gave you some pictures. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask and I will try to answer to the best of my ability. Thank you for your interest.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 13, 2017)

Some of the CMA elements in Wumingquan include:

- Siu Nim Tau
- Dok Gerk Siu Nim Tau
- Jee Yau Bok Gik
- Chi Sau
- Chi Gerk
- Gor Sau
- Lin Sil Die Dar
- Chung Seen
- Chum Jong
- Ji Gok Geng
- Duen Geng
- Tui Sau
- Bong An Chi Sao
- Don Chi Gerk
- Sui Jow
- Ying Jow / Fu Jow
- Chui Ying
- Churng Wai
- Da Sa Bao
- Dit Yeung Juk
- Faan Sau
- Pak Sao Ngoy Da
- Jik Chung Choi

Chung Kuen, Lop Da, Pak Da, Bong Da, Tan Da, Jik Tek, Biu Ma and Biu Sau are all fundamental core teachings or techniques in Mou Meng Kuen.


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## mograph (Apr 13, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I do have many various home training videos and pictures on my phone and I don't mind sharing them as soon as I learn how. I'm still new to the site and still rather new to this phone but once I figure it all out then sure, it would be my pleasure. (I tried to upload a video just now but it said the file was too large). One of the biggest things that others will notice from my videos and pictures is [...]. I will try to upload some of these things as soon as I get a chance.





Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I tried to upload some pictures for everyone to give you all a better idea about myself and my style. I'm not exactly sure what else you were expecting to see or learn. You can't expect me to just give my style away to people I barely know or have never even met before. [...] I do not have a YouTube channel or anything like that.


Um ...  so you no longer want to upload videos? What changed your mind?


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 13, 2017)

mograph said:


> Um ...  so you no longer want to upload videos? What changed your mind?



I don't mind sharing one or two videos with this MA forum. I never had a YouTube channel. All of my videos are recorded on my phone, so they aren't the best quality. The problem I have is like I said before, I'm still new to this phone and also to this site. Technology is changing so rapidly and I'm not very good with computers or electronics. I tried to upload some videos to this site, but I kept getting error notifications so I decided to upload some pictures for you all instead. That way you could at least get some idea of who I am and what I do.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 13, 2017)

I feel I should probably say this. If anyone is looking for some "secret" training methods or "special" techniques in my style, they're not going to find it. There is nothing really unique or special about this particular martial art. Most of what I can show you has already been done before by other members on this site, so I don't really have anything new to offer you. There are only two requirements in this system. One is that you learn it and practice it. The other requirement is that you just keep learning it and practicing it. That's the only secret.


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## DanT (Apr 13, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Some of the CMA elements in Wumingquan include:
> 
> - Siu Nim Tau
> - Dok Gerk Siu Nim Tau
> ...


These are mostly Southern Fujian / Wing Chun methods and techniques. How long have you trained Wing Chun for? Also have you studied any northern styles? I find that the northern styles (Lohan, Cha, Chang) in my personal experience compliment southern styles well.


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## Buka (Apr 13, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I don't mind sharing one or two videos with this MA forum. I never had a YouTube channel. All of my videos are recorded on my phone, so they aren't the best quality. The problem I have is like I said before, I'm still new to this phone and also to this site. Technology is changing so rapidly and I'm not very good with computers or electronics. I tried to upload some videos to this site, but I kept getting error notifications so I decided to upload some pictures for you all instead. That way you could at least get some idea of who I am and what I do.



I feel you, brother. It only took me six years on here, and Dirty Dog being kind enough to point it out, that I didn't actually need a picture hosting site to post pictures on our forum.

I know, I'm retarded, sue me.


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 13, 2017)

DanT said:


> These are mostly Southern Fujian / Wing Chun methods and techniques. How long have you trained Wing Chun for? Also have you studied any northern styles? I find that the northern styles (Lohan, Cha, Chang) in my personal experience compliment southern styles well.



I'm terrible when it comes to the Chinese names of moves and forms, which ones from that list come from Fujian? All the ones I found were either from Wing Chun or JKD.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 13, 2017)

DanT said:


> These are mostly Southern Fujian / Wing Chun methods and techniques. How long have you trained Wing Chun for? Also have you studied any northern styles? I find that the northern styles (Lohan, Cha, Chang) in my personal experience compliment southern styles well.



You know your stuff well my friend. I actually was a student of Yip Family style Wing Chun Kuen for about five years and then I practiced Hung Suen style WCK for about another 2 years after I moved away. As I mentioned before, Wumingquan was heavily influenced by WCK at the core level. But actually, I would have to say that it was probably even more influenced by "Non-Classical Gung Fu" which is a style very similar but different to Wing Chun, just with similar words and techniques. I did a lot of sensitivity drills and sticking hands exercises with the founder of that system, but unfortunately he passed away in 2012 and I never received a certificate in that system. I had several WCK teachers in the early 2000's era from several different schools. Some exchanging of styles did take place and it was a great learning experience for everyone who was involved.

I do not have any formal training in any northern Shaolin styles that I am aware of. I gained a lot of knowledge and exposure to a wide variety of TCMA styles over the past 20 years. I'm not even 100% sure about the names of all those styles. I had a few JKD instructors at one time, but most of them have since passed away. I was told that JKD borrowed some elements from northern Shaolin styles, though how much I'm not exactly sure. That was also many years ago, but I kept some of those JKD elements with me throughout the years and a lot of those WCK/JKD elements can still be seen in my style today. So you and Midnight-shadow are both correct to make that assumption. Good eyes.


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## oaktree (Apr 13, 2017)

Here are some fun facts about the name Wu Ming depending on the Hanzi:
无名：indefinable, indescribable 
无明：Ignorance and delusional
污名：bad reputation

Just saying some people may think when you say your art to a native speaker and don't get the tone right they might think your art is the art of ignorance


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 13, 2017)

Haha that's funny. 

I didn't know that. Thank you. It was meant to be read as 无名 (wú-míng). That translates to Standard English as "no-name" or namelessness. I would say that's equivalent to being "indefinable" and "indescribable" but now I hope I'm pronouncing it right. How do you pronounce it correctly? I am not fluent in Chinese languages and dialects. This might cause some to ask me, why then did I choose a Chinese name? But again, I was just paying my respects to Chinese martial arts. It's not all Chinese, but a great majority of it is. Again some of the non-Chinese elements in Wumingquan are borrowed from Judo or Aikido, Jujitsu or Jujutsu, Boxing, Wrestling, JKD, MMA and bare-knuckle boxing. However, most of the techniques I practice are very basic and can be found having many variations within several different martial arts around the entire world.


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## oaktree (Apr 14, 2017)

Chinese Pronunciation - Tones - ChinesePod
It is with a second tone so like asking a question. 
I think one of the best Hanzi and Kanji dictionaries online
Cojak Hanzi Dictionary: About the Software
Pleco is a great Chinese dictionary I use it often with my wife(native of Zhuhai) 
Pleco Chinese Dictionary - Android Apps on Google Play
Gambatte with your new art.


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## Jenna (Apr 14, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> There will never be Mou Meng Gung Fu DVD's for sale. Mou Meng Gung Fu is not a professional business, and although students could probably learn a lot about this style by watching videos or looking at pictures and reading books, etc. I feel like the only way to truly learn any martial art is through personal training. Every single practitioner in this system has trained with me in person. Not a single penny or profit has been made at this time in over 10 years. Here we do not judge people by their abilities or their wallets. You can not buy my system. The only way to learn it is in person. We judge people by their moral character and eagerness to become better. For that reason, Mou Meng Gung Fu will never be taught openly to the public.
> 
> Some people might say that after 30+ posts in this thread, they still don't know anything about me or my style. I tried to upload some pictures for everyone to give you all a better idea about myself and my style. I'm not exactly sure what else you were expecting to see or learn. You can't expect me to just give my style away to people I barely know or have never even met before. I'm no Einstein but I'm not that foolish. Let's be fair. I do not have a YouTube channel or anything like that. Someone asked for some pictures and I gave you some pictures. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask and I will try to answer to the best of my ability. Thank you for your interest.


I say just do your thing how you do it and fret less about persuading the world 
Since you invite question I should like to ask why you say: "You can't expect me to just give my style away to people I barely know".. That sound like your martial art it is not for sharing? Me I would have not time for persuading any one toward my art whose mind seem to me closed or whose nature in questioning seem to me argumentative.. is that why you would not give your style away to people you barely know? or some thing besides?? and in that case what have you established as your criteria for giving it away? Thank you


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 14, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> my question is why.   let be honest, by your own admission your art is basic and nothing special.  mediocre at best.  you say you are not going to teach what you do publicly, so why are you putting a name on it and coming to a martial art forum to introduce it and talk about it?  it kinda screams ego and possible narcissist to me.  im all for someone creating or doing their own thing, thats what i am doing.  but i have more than 30 years training in traditional systems and i felt i could bring something of value to the table.  i suspect your rather young compared to some of us old folk here and thats great but i hope you realize that by doing your own mediocre style you will never rise above that level of mediocrity.   why not train in a system you think is really great?  at least you would get really good at something.



Since I've never met or worked out with Mou Meng, I have no idea of what is skill level is like or how well his personal system holds together. Might be great, might be crappy, might be average. Who knows.

I do appreciate that he's not trying to advertise himself with inflated, self-awarded ranks or dubious stories about winning dozens of life-or-death battles, nor is he insisting that his art contains all the best parts of other arts with none of the flaws. That puts him ahead of 90% of the people out there I see who have created and named their own martial art.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Well, my philosophy is the same as others, just like my punches and my kicks. I just chose to call it Gung Fu to be honest, because I like Chinese martial arts. (And because I used to practice CMA, moreso than other styles). Wumingquan incorporates a lot of the same techniques, methods and theories found in the southern Chinese Boxing systems in the Hong Kong area. I suppose you could attach it to their Taoist or Buddhist philosophies. As for me personally, I was influenced by Bruce Lee's philosophy, like everyone else.



In this case, I think Midnight Shadow was asking not so much about cultural/religious philosophies like Taoism or Buddhism, but more about the underlying principles which tie your system together. Tactical focus, principles of power generation, training priorities, that sort of thing. As has been pointed out many times on this forum, techniques are just particular expressions of the underlying principles of a martial art. The reason why (for example) Wing Chun teaches punching differently than Western boxing comes down to the differing principles and priorities in the two systems.

Can you talk a bit about what those principles would be for your system?


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 14, 2017)

Jenna said:


> I say just do your thing how you do it and fret less about persuading the world
> Since you invite question I should like to ask why you say: "You can't expect me to just give my style away to people I barely know".. That sound like your martial art it is not for sharing? Me I would have not time for persuading any one toward my art whose mind seem to me closed or whose nature in questioning seem to me argumentative.. is that why you would not give your style away to people you barely know? or some thing besides?? and in that case what have you established as your criteria for giving it away? Thank you



Thank you Jenna, I will try to answer this question the best I can.

I don't teach Mou Meng Gung Fu to anyone except for my closest family and friends. There are a number of reasons why. One of the biggest reasons being that I am not a Master of Gung Fu, so I do not want to give anyone the wrong impression. I am just a fellow student. Another reason I do not teach Mou Meng Gung Fu to outsiders is because some of the techniques can be dangerous if done incorrectly or carelessly. I don't want anyone to get hurt. The only way to pass this system on correctly is through very small circles in one-on-one training. I never train with more than two or three other people at a time. We're talking about a very small private class with 2-3 students at maximum. Mou Meng Gung Fu wasn't designed for mass production, but for very high quality training in a short period of time. Practiced correctly, someone should be proficient in this martial art after only a few years of basic training. So that's one reason why we don't share it with the masses. I wanted to keep it pure and simple. Another reason I don't teach my art openly to other people is because it's a family style. Mou Meng Gung Fu is a dangerous system which requires humility, trust, loyalty, honesty and a good moral character. Some of the techniques are meant for damaging nerves and breaking bones, so it's important for students in this system to have discipline and self-restraint. Mou Meng Gung Fu isn't actually meant to injure anyone, but is meant for longevity and the preservation of life. So it's important to keep it within the family. I hope that makes sense.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 14, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu has several principles and training methods, some of which are very different and contradictory to others, even within our own system. It's not as easy as 1-2-3 in this style of martial arts. Some things are easier said than done, but in this case it's the opposite. Mou Meng Gung Fu employs punches that are similar to Wing Chung Gung Fu punches. We also have sparring methods similar to Wing Chun's sparring methods. However, we also employ punches that are more similar to Western Boxing, and we have different sparring methods which don't look anything at all like Wing Chun, so I'm afraid it's difficult to explain our core principles and structure because we don't really have one. Balance is our philosophy and fluidity is our structure.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 14, 2017)

In case this is your first time to this thread, I mentioned earlier that MMK has only one form or taolu. It's an empty-hand form called Sil Lum Tao (lit. "Shaolin Way") and it is a very important, integral part of this system. Sil Lum Tao is not for fighting or full-contact sparring. It is only for training. Most of our Wumingquan training "is" sparring, which can sometimes be very rigorous and hard on the practitioner. There are a lot of un-set fast movements in this style, so we counter balance it with Sil Lum Tao, which is very slow and works on building internal power to compliment the external. There are 108 movements in our method of Sil Lum Tao, which focus on several principles and theories such as the centerline theory, immovable elbow theory, simultaneous attack and defense, bridging and sticking. These principles and theories makeup the bulk of MMK training. Practioners in this style will normally practice this form very slowly, which helps them to meditate and relax after a hard workout. Sil Lum Tao is gender neutral and does not require much speed, strength or flexibility. This makes it easier for everyone to learn, regardless of age or disability. Qigong is incorporated into our Sil Lum Tao form as well, with different muscles being tensed or relaxed at different times in order to promote health, fitness, longevity and muscle memory.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 14, 2017)

As I mentioned before, MMK (short for Mou Meng Kuen) has no trophies or ranking system. The goal in this style is a very personal journey, and that will differ from person to person. So we don't really practice MMK to beat other people. We practice MMK to beat the worst enemy of all, which is ourselves and our own limitations. Sparring is a major part of this system and makes up about 80% of the training. In fact, it's such an important part of this system that we have actually broken it down into several different ways of sparring. We have boxing, kicking, kickboxing, wrestling, trapping hands drills, sticking hands and sticking legs exercises, sensitivity drills and even simulation sparring (with one hand, one leg or blindfolded to simulate fighting while being injured). Combined all of that with the slower SLT form training, and you will have a very good understanding of what we do in Mou Meng Kuen.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 14, 2017)

I mentioned just earlier in another thread that boardgame Chess is also a part of Wumingquan training. In fact it is a requirement to learn Chess when practicing this martial art, as the game has much to offer as far as personal growth and development. Every practitioner in this style is an active Chess player, and we play the game for many reasons. One reason is for light conversation, personal reflection and philosophical discussion. Another reason is for the challenge. We use Chess to symbolise different theories, principles and concepts when fighting. For example, the idea of MMK is to control the centerline. The idea of Chess is to control the center of the board. So there are a lot of training tools we utilize in Chess to help compliment our training in Mou Meng Kuen, something that you probably don't see in a lot of other martial arts.


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## vince1 (Apr 14, 2017)

So you are basically a self defense teacher incorporating a variety self defense techniques from other martial arts. My sifu has black belts from six different types of martial arts and teaches self defense using the best self defense techniques from all six. He didn't give it a name but calls the school by his first and last name self defense school.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 14, 2017)

vince1 said:


> So you are basically a self defense teacher incorporating a variety self defense techniques from other martial arts. My sifu has black belts from six different types of martial arts and teaches self defense using the best self defense techniques from all six. He didn't give it a name but calls the school by his first and last name self defense school.



That makes perfect sense. I used to refer to my system as Wu Wei Gung Fu for a short time period (Wu Wei is my name in Chinese), until I met the founder of Non-Classical Gung Fu who showed me a different style that was also called Wu Wei (meaning "non-action"). After that, I stopped calling my style Wu Wei Gung Fu because I didn't want to step on anyone's toes or give the wrong impression. I chose to name it Mou Meng Gung Fu because nobody else uses that name snd it's easier to distinguish.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 15, 2017)

I am seeing a bunch of Wing Chun terms being thrown out with all manner of ******** fortune cookie speak with a smidgeon of Chinese mysticism thrown in to add some flavor.

When you can name all those techniques, you are not nameless.

Also, if all you know are techniques and not the concepts behind the techniques, as well as the science and physics behind them, you really should not be teaching.  Concepts need to be understood, not technique.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 15, 2017)

DaleDugas said:


> I am seeing a bunch of Wing Chun terms being thrown out with all manner of ******** fortune cookie speak with a smidgeon of Chinese mysticism thrown in to add some flavor.
> 
> When you can name all those techniques, you are not nameless.
> 
> Also, if all you know are techniques and not the concepts behind the techniques, as well as the science and physics behind them, you really should not be teaching.  Concepts need to be understood, not technique.



Mou Meng Kuen is just a name. Please don't get stuck on it. Someone already mentioned earlier that it's an oxymoronic name for a style. I don't feel the need to address this matter any further. It's just a name, plain and simple.

I do not teach this system to outsiders, only to my closest family and friends. I am not a self-proclaimed Master of Gung Fu, but this is something I've already said before. I guess I should have also mentioned that I'm not interested in mastering other people's concepts and physics. I'm way too busy right now in trying to master my own.

And did you just compare me to a Chinese mystic? I'm not sure whether to be offended or to take that as a compliment (lol). But no, in all seriousness I do agree with you. But I'm not going to address this matter right now, because I feel like it's already been addressed. As time goes on and more posts are being made, I think others will see that not only can I talk the talk, but I can also practice what I preach. I mean, just from the pictures I've posted on here, already you can see a difference in the skill level. So I'm not going to waste my time trying to fit into other people's perceptions (from a WCK or some other perspective). I do what I do and it works for me. Everything else is irrelevant.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 15, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I mean, just from the pictures I've posted on here, already you can see a difference in the skill level. So I'm not going to waste my time trying to fit into other people's perceptions


yeah .....we will have your T shirt sent to you.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 15, 2017)

Uggh,

More of the secret ninja like fu master who has Wu Wei as his Chinese name.  Umm, no your Chinese name is most definitely not Wu Wei.  No Chinese would ever give you that name,  you chose it yourself.  It is evident...

You came here to proclaim about your supposed style with no name.  But the "techniques" are pretty much Wing Chun terms.  Umm, I getting the feeling you are either just a nutbag or your a troll looking for kicks. 

You are not offering anything but BS and made up chop suey wing chun mixed with whateverelse.

The fortune cookie speak is the give away.  

the "I only teach privately" is more BS,  you really have no clue as to what you are doing, if you did you would not post up about your made up mess on a martial arts forum.

25 years?  I think not.  If you had 25 years in the Chun, you would not be posting up this nonsense son.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 15, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I mean, just from the pictures I've posted on here, already you can see a difference in the skill level.



Delusion at its finest.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 15, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Therein lies the philosophy.



Of what?  You made up no name chop suey?

I think not.

You cannot have a no name system with techniques with names.

No names.

Get it?

Apparently you do not.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 15, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> The reason I say that my style is self-defense system is because we practice techniques which are illegal in most sport fighting competitions. Mou Meng Gung Fu (or Wu Ming Kung Fu, whichever you prefer) utilizes snake-like finger strikes, tiger-like raking nails and eagle-like gouging or clawing techniques as well as some dragon-like elbow and knee strikes targeted at the groin area or the back of the head. There are also some mantis-like trapping and bone breaking methods incorporated into this system as well, while our footwork and defensive techniques are almost crane-like in nature. Another reason I decided to call it Wumingquan, for its Chinese roots. Wumingquan favors the usefulness of any means to defend oneself, even to the extent of grabbing hair or clothes. Brass knuckles, electrical stun guns,  pepper spray, knives and firearms  are also not out of the equation in this style. We don't train in weapon forms or drills per say but we do train with weapons. We also keep our shoes on most of the time when we train, unless we're on the mats. Another thing people will notice is that this style does not have height or weight divisions, nor does it separate gender.




Oh, watch out the deadly not for sport material from all manner of styles.

You are 33 and claim 25 years of training.

You have been watching too many kung fu moves and not actually training.

If you did not train in tiger, or mantis, or dragon, you do not understand the concepts underlying all your no name techniques.

Fly Fly No Name...

Fly Fly.....


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## DaleDugas (Apr 15, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Which field? I have tested it repeatedly in sparring, modifying things ever so slightly as I progressed. In fact I'm still modifying things as I go. Sometimes it seems like there's always something to learn. As I learn, I grow. As I grow, I change. That too has much to do with Wumingquan's philosophy. However, the core foundation of Wumingquan remains very simple and unchanging. The techniques are very basic beginner level. Somewhat similar to Krav Maga in a little way, but different.
> 
> I have only been to three sport fighting events in my life. I earned a 1st place trophy for Sanshou kickboxing, a 2nd place trophy in amateur Western boxing, and a 3rd place trophy in Judo wrestling. That was between the years of 2005 and 2010, if my memory serves. Other than that and a few bare-knuckle street fights here and there, I've never really had to use my style in the field to be honest.



So you have been in a few street fights?  What did you break?  Were you injured?  What happened to the people you supposedly fought with?  

And yet you claim to teach self defense without really being in many fights.   How do you know your material will work in the street?


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## DaleDugas (Apr 15, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Some of the CMA elements in Wumingquan include:
> 
> - Siu Nim Tau
> - Dok Gerk Siu Nim Tau
> ...



You have no true understanding of these.

Remember you said you have not had to use your material for real in the field.

Hence you have no real understanding of the concepts of ALL these techniques and how to apply said concepts in the "field".


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## DaleDugas (Apr 15, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Well, my philosophy is the same as others, just like my punches and my kicks. I just chose to call it Gung Fu to be honest, because I like Chinese martial arts. (And because I used to practice CMA, moreso than other styles). Wumingquan incorporates a lot of the same techniques, methods and theories found in the southern Chinese Boxing systems in the Hong Kong area. I suppose you could attach it to their Taoist or Buddhist philosophies. As for me personally, I was influenced by Bruce Lee's philosophy, like everyone else.



I was not influenced by Bruce Lee, as he is dead, buried and rotten.  His supposed "kung fu' skills were not that good.  He died in his 30's.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 15, 2017)

DaleDugas said:


> So you have been in a few street fights?  What did you break?  Were you injured?  What happened to the people you supposedly fought with?
> 
> And yet you claim to teach self defense without really being in many fights.   How do you know your material will work in the street?



Good question. 

Just for the record, I do not promote violence in any way. Sometimes things happen that we have no control over. Yes or no? And sometimes we may end up in situations where you have to fight your way out. Yes or no? So what I'm going to tell you is very honest and personal. I have been in a few brawls out in the street (maybe I'm just being humble). Sometimes things got broken. Sometimes people got injured. Not all the time, but sometimes. I have received several sprains and fractures over the years, usually due to my own stupidity and improper body alignments. Most of the injuries I received were to my hands and feet. But over the years, I am improving and getting better at not getting injured so much. Of course, I don't get in as many fights as I used to either. I guess now I just have to have faith that I can defend myself in a street fight. Until then, I'll just keep on training.

As for the 6 other posts you just blasted me with, I have no comment. But please do not blast me on my own thread.

Fair enough?


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 15, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> yeah .....we will have your T shirt sent to you.



What part of what I said in that short statement you quoted (or in anything I said on this forum for that matter) suggests that I want a T shirt? However, if you want to send me a T shirt, I'll wear it. I'll even send you pictures, if that'll make you happy.


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## CB Jones (Apr 15, 2017)

Well with all due respect, if you are gonna  come on a martial arts board and introduce a new martial arts style that you created....you should expect to have to defend it against critics.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 15, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Well with all due respect, if you are gonna  come on a martial arts board and introduce a new martial arts style that you created....you should expect to have to defend it against critics.



Of course, and I welcome criticism. It comes with the territory. But that doesn't mean I have to respond to it or take abuse from it. Jenna taught me that earlier during this thread. 

And to whomever it may concern, please do not disrespect another martial artist in my threads. I don't care if it's Bruce Lee, or another member of this site. Don't do it. I happen to have a lot of respect for Bruce Lee, and I feel like some people are just being rude, regardless of whatever they say is true or not. Just please don't be rude, that's all I'm asking.

Fair enough?


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 15, 2017)

DaleDugas said:


> You are 33 and claim 25 years of training.
> 
> If you did not train in tiger, or mantis, or dragon, you do not understand the concepts underlying all your no name techniques.



I have over 25+ years of off and on experience in martial arts. That is correct, but that's not what you said. Please quote me in the future.

I do not having any formal training in the traditional northern or southern mantis, dragon, eagle or tiger style Kung Fu systems. I noticed you also didn't mention crane. But I did train in tiger-crane style Karate and in snake-crane style Kung Fu, and actually I did give you the Chinese names of some of the techniques we practice in Nameless Boxing, twice if you want to get technical. But I digress. Animal imitating movements and techniques exist in a lot of martial arts and are not just exclusive to one method or system. Nor is every style the same. So please don't confuse what I do with what others do. This is Wu Ming Kung Fu and our ways are different.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 15, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I have over 25+ years of off and on experience in martial arts. That is correct, but that's not what you said. Please quote me in the future.
> 
> I do not having any formal training in the traditional northern or southern mantis, dragon, eagle or tiger style Kung Fu systems. I noticed you also didn't mention crane. But I did train in tiger-crane style Karate and in snake-crane style Kung Fu, and actually I did give you the Chinese names of some of the techniques we practice in Nameless Boxing, twice if you want to get technical. But I digress. Animal imitating movements and techniques exist in a lot of martial arts and are not just exclusive to one method or system. Nor is every style the same. So please don't confuse what I do with what others do. This is Wu Ming Kung Fu and our ways are different.


Ok I got to ask what is tiger crane karate.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 15, 2017)

Mouthboxing fakes need not be teaching made up chop suey.

delusion at it finest.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 16, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Ok I got to ask what is tiger crane karate.



Do you two guys (Dale included) even practice martial arts? Or do you just troll the site, flame people's threads, knit-pick at what we say and make yourselves look bad in front of everyone else who's actually trying to learn? If so, how are you not banned yet? It seems like a lot of wasted time and energy to be honest. I mean, if you really have to ask questions like this, then you need to do less talking and more studying. Welcome to the internet. Search for the answer you seek, then return to me when you have found it. Right now, neither of you are ready to taste my tea. You are both way too "challengy" and (judging by your line of questioning) not quite educated enough to pass judgments or make constructive criticisms. Study more. Train more. Talk less. I'm sure the Karate forum, or Google search engine could probably help you out (Goju-ryu, Wado-ryu, Shito-ryu, Shorin-ryu, Uechi-ryu, Shotokan and Kyokushin are all tiger-crane styles of Karate), so you might want to try there first before coming to me. This thread is not about Karate, it's about Wu Ming Kung Fu, so I will ask you both again very nicely to please be respectful and mindful of where you are and what you say. After going to work as a security guard (I'm a club bouncer, bodyguard and S.E.O.) dealing with drunkards, drug dealers, prostitutes and challengy idiots who just want to fight all night, the very last thing I need when I get home and check my notifications is to get bombarded by ignorant questions and rude statements from people I don't even know in reference to things that have absolutely nothing to do with my style, or me as a person. So please, have courtesy while you're here or I'll have you reported for trolling my thread. Thank you.

Dale, you were already warned once. I asked you nicely. But since you wanted to continue being rude, I already reported you to the staff. I shall make an example out of you, so that others can see that I'm not messing around. Please leave. Go talk that internet toughguy crap on your own threads. I won't tolerate it here.


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## Buka (Apr 16, 2017)

If there are t-shirts to be given out, I want one, please. (I so love martial arts t-shirts. A weakness, what can I say?) As for everything else, might be best to chill out. Chilling out is never a bad thing.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 16, 2017)

Buka said:


> If there are t-shirts to be given out, I want one, please. (I so love martial arts t-shirts. A weakness, what can I say?) As for everything else, might be best to chill out. Chilling out is never a bad thing.



I like you Buka, you seem pretty chill to me. I look for that quality in other martial artists. Sometimes life can be very unchill, so just being around other martial artists who are chill is sometimes a good thing. Thank you for just being who you are. I admire that.


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## oaktree (Apr 16, 2017)

Hi Mu Ming, Dale Dugas is one of the leading authorities on Iron palm, an Acupuncturist, and has been training in Chinese martial arts for a long time. He also speaks Chinese. In my opinion I would listen to his advice.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 16, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Hi Mu Ming, Dale Dugas is one of the leading authorities on Iron palm, an Acupuncturist, and has been training in Chinese martial arts for a long time. He also speaks Chinese. In my opinion I would listen to his advice.



Be that as it may, that still doesn't give him the right to bully people around or be disrespectful towards the deceased. I don't care if you're Gene LeBell, you just don't do that. I will not tolerate it. He's just being sore because I won't come out of my shell. That says a lot more to me than anything you just said.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 16, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Do you two guys (Dale included) even practice martial arts? Or do you just troll the site, flame people's threads, knit-pick at what we say and make yourselves look bad in front of everyone else who's actually trying to learn? If so, how are you not banned yet? It seems like a lot of wasted time and energy to be honest. I mean, if you really have to ask questions like this, then you need to do less talking and more studying. Welcome to the internet. Search for the answer you seek, then return to me when you have found it. Right now, neither of you are ready to taste my tea. You are both way too "challengy" and (judging by your line of questioning) not quite educated enough to pass judgments or make constructive criticisms. Study more. Train more. Talk less. I'm sure the Karate forum, or Google search engine could probably help you out (Goju-ryu, Wado-ryu, Shito-ryu, Shorin-ryu, Uechi-ryu, Shotokan and Kyokushin are all tiger-crane styles of Karate), so you might want to try there first before coming to me. This thread is not about Karate, it's about Wu Ming Kung Fu, so I will ask you both again very nicely to please be respectful and mindful of where you are and what you say. After going to work as a security guard (I'm a club bouncer, bodyguard and S.E.O.) dealing with drunkards, drug dealers, prostitutes and challengy idiots who just want to fight all night, the very last thing I need when I get home and check my notifications is to get bombarded by ignorant questions and rude statements from people I don't even know in reference to things that have absolutely nothing to do with my style, or me as a person. So please, have courtesy while you're here or I'll have you reported for trolling my thread. Thank you.
> 
> Dale, you were already warned once. I asked you nicely. But since you wanted to continue being rude, I already reported you to the staff. I shall make an example out of you, so that others can see that I'm not messing around. Please leave. Go talk that internet toughguy crap on your own threads. I won't tolerate it here.


I dont think my last post was challenging or rude. You said you studied tiger-crane karate. I ask what that is because I have never heard of a style of karate called tiger-crane. Your next post goes on to mention 6 other styles of karate which all have familiar names but those styles are not called tiger crane karate. So are you saying you studied one of those styles or more than one of those, and if so why didn't you just use the proper name so everyone new what you are referring to? For you to say you studied tiger-crane karate implies that  tiger crane  is the official name of the style.
Your post was confusing, you should not get up set just because I asked for clarification.


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## Buka (Apr 16, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I like you Buka, you seem pretty chill to me. I look for that quality in other martial artists. Sometimes life can be very unchill, so just being around other martial artists who are chill is sometimes a good thing. Thank you for just being who you are. I admire that.



You know how it is. You get X amount of Martial Artists together and what do you have?

 X amount of opinions about X amount of subjects, details, intricacies, training exercises, fighting methods, styles, terms, rules, procedures, histories, adaptations, equipment, etc. It's all good. Hope so, anyway.


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## oaktree (Apr 16, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Be that as it may, that still doesn't give him the right to bully people around or be disrespectful towards the deceased. I don't care if you're Gene LeBell, you just don't do that. I will not tolerate it. He's just being sore because I won't come out of my shell. That says a lot more to me than anything you just said.


Who died? I think since we on this site who have been here for a long time and see someone create their own style especially for us who practice Chinese arts we ask questions though some things sound odd to us, I also can agree that I think it is a little odd someone gives you the name wuwei无为 Dale does have a point the characteristics and concepts of your art do sound some what hodge podge with fortune cookie type logic.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 16, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I dont think my last post was challenging or rude. You said you studied tiger-crane karate. I ask what that is because I have never heard of a style of karate called tiger-crane. Your next post goes on to mention 6 other styles of karate which all have familiar names but those styles are not called tiger crane karate. So are you saying you studied one of those styles or more than one of those, and if so why didn't you just use the proper name so everyone new what you are referring to? For you to say you studied tiger-crane karate implies that  tiger crane  is the official name of the style.
> Your post was confusing, you should not get up set just because I asked for clarification.



To be honest, I'm not upset with you. I'm upset with Dale, so I may have been too harsh on you just now. My apologies. Allow me to stress something for you one more time if I may. I no longer believe in styles. I no longer believe that "this" style is better than "that" style or what have you. So although it may seem rather vague of me sometimes, you have to taste my tea before you can understand my point of view. I already answered one or two questions in regard to my previous "style" training experience. But the more I get caught up in looking backwards towards my stylized past, the less I look forward to my nameless future. One should not confuse what I do with anything else. If you try to perceive my art from a Wing Chun perspective or a Karate perspective, you will miss the mark entirely. Mou Meng has no perspective. We see things simply as they are and do not try to specify it or form any opinion of it. That is why I said "tiger-crane" style Karate, in a more broader sense (Karate being the umbrella term in this case as opposed to a specific style). I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I hope this helps.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 16, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> To be honest, I'm not upset with you. I'm upset with Dale, so I may have been too harsh on you just now. My apologies. Allow me to stress something for you one more time if I may. I no longer believe in styles. I no longer believe that "this" style is better than "that" style or what have you. So although it may seem rather vague of me sometimes, you have to taste my tea before you can understand my point of view. I already answered one or two questions in regard to my previous "style" training experience. But the more I get caught up in looking backwards towards my stylized past, the less I look forward to my nameless future. One should not confuse what I do with anything else. If you try to perceive my art from a Wing Chun perspective or a Karate perspective, you will miss the mark entirely. Mou Meng has no perspective. We see things simply as they are and do not try to specify it or form any opinion of it. That is why I said "tiger-crane" style Karate, in a more broader sense (Karate being the umbrella term in this case as opposed to a specific style). I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I hope this helps.


Actually no it doesn't help.  
So what your saying is that I'm to stupid and uneducated in martial arts to differentiate between a martial art that you studied in the past and what you are practicing presently and that I would confuse the two and would not be able to comprehend the subtleties between the two, if you were to divulge the name of the karate style you did in the past.
If I promise to not judge your new practice based on the name of a karate style you studied perhaps years and years ago would you please disclose the name of karate.  Because my question is not pertaining to your personal present practice but rather you as a person and your background. It's simple inquiry with a simple answer. You stated you had studied karate, I was curious as to the style. Does not seem like an irrational query for a conversation about martial arts. As an analogy if we both owned and liked corvettes it would not be unreasonable to ask what year you had.
I think you don't like me because you have not answered any of my questions. You have been very deceptive in your posts. I have been very direct.
What style of karate did you train in?
Who was your teacher?
Simple question, simple answer and they have nothing to do with your current art.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 16, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Who died? I think since we on this site who have been here for a long time and see someone create their own style especially for us who practice Chinese arts we ask questions though some things sound odd to us, I also can agree that I think it is a little odd someone gives you the name wuwei无为 Dale does have a point the characteristics and concepts of your art do sound some what hodge podge with fortune cookie type logic.



I'm not sure if your translation of Wu Wei is the same as mine. This is not wuwei (no-action), like I said before. Wu is my Chinese family name. I'm not exactly sure of the meaning, it appears to be a common name. Wei is my Chinese given name, which means "to protect" or "defend" (This is also the meaning of my name in English, Celtic, German, French and other languages). As for my style, Wumingquan, that is the name I chose for my system. Surely you've all heard much stranger and more cartoonish names for a martial art system. Why get stuck on this one? Anyways, names aren't that important. What's important is that it works for me and I'm okay with that. If that's what it takes to distinguish my style from other styles, then so be it. Wuxingquan is a rather strange name for a style which still has shapes and forms, but nobody bickers about that style. So please, don't bicker about mine. It's my style, I will call it what I want.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 16, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> What style of karate did you train in?
> Who was your teacher?
> Simple question, simple answer and they have nothing to do with your current art.


 
I had 2 different Karate instructors. That was many years ago. One of them was a Kyokushin black-belt named Erick Klow, and he was my younger brother. My other instructor was a Shotokan brown-belt named Sensei Rokko, and I was his only student (to earn his black-belt, he was required by his own Sensei to teach me 1-on-1 through private backyard training).

And please don't take this the wrong way. But honestly, I don't really like your type (not singling you out specifically). I know your type. All they do is concern themselves with styles, ranks, ribbons, belts, trophies, lineages and things that don't really matter. Wumingquan has no ranks or trophies or belts or certificates. My type are not concerned with such things, just to be fair. Nothing personal.


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## oaktree (Apr 16, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I'm not sure if your translation of Wu Wei is the same as mine. This is not wuwei (no-action), like I said before. Wu is my Chinese family name. I'm not exactly sure of the meaning, it appears to be a common name. Wei is my Chinese given name, which means "to protect" or "defend" (This is also the meaning of my name in English, Celtic, German, French and other languages). As for my style, Wumingquan, that is the name I chose for my system. Surely you've all heard much stranger and more cartoonish names for a martial art system. Why get stuck on this one? Anyways, names aren't that important. What's important is that it works for me and I'm okay with that. If that's what it takes to distinguish my style from other styles, then so be it. Wuxingquan is a rather strange name for a style which still has shapes and forms, but nobody bickers about that style. So please, don't bicker about mine. It's my style, I will call it what I want.


Ya who knows what Wu it is strange your family names you a Chinese name but doesn't teach you Chinese. Wei is also used in the word for toilet 卫浴 or maybe they named you 无谓. 
Well considering that there is an actual movie in China that the guy uses is called Wumingquan I would say not really except for the guy who really called his style fist of the north star. 

You do know that Wuxing 五行 means five elements in reference to the five elements found in Daojiao.
Xingyiquan 形意拳 means form intent boxing in my opinion the form is created by the intent meaning like Bengquan the intent(意） is to be like an arrow straight in which creates form(形）intent and form are one in the same in my opinion. With out intent there is no xingyiquan, without correct form or expression of the intent there is no xingyiquan this is the concept and why there is so much power in the punches.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 16, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I had 2 different Karate instructors. That was many years ago. One of them was a Kyokushin black-belt named Erick Klow, and he was my younger brother. My other instructor was a Shotokan brown-belt named Sensei Rokko, and I was his only student (to earn his black-belt, he was required by his own Sensei to teach me 1-on-1 through private backyard training).


Thank you.  
I hope you understand that martial arts has always been scrutinized and full of misunderstanding over the years. We tend to be sensitive about dishonesty.  The people on MT are a good group with a lot of knowledge, honesty will get more respect than titles, rank or boasting. Anything anyone says that is not fact or accurate or a lie will quickly be flushed out. We are kinda unforgiving like that.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 16, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Ya who knows what Wu it is strange your family names you a Chinese name but doesn't teach you Chinese. Wei is also used in the word for toilet 卫浴 or maybe they named you 无谓.
> Well considering that there is an actual movie in China that the guy uses is called Wumingquan I would say not really except for the guy who really called his style fist of the north star.
> 
> You do know that Wuxing 五行 means five elements in reference to the five elements found in Daojiao.
> Xingyiquan 形意拳 means form intent boxing in my opinion the form is created by the intent meaning like Bengquan the intent(意） is to be like an arrow straight in which creates form(形）intent and form are one in the same in my opinion. With out intent there is no xingyiquan, without correct form or expression of the intent there is no xingyiquan this is the concept and why there is so much power in the punches.



Someone else had mentioned that there was a movie called Wumingquan (or was that you?), but I've never seen it. I'll have to check that out some time. And the Wuxingquan that I was refering to was Shapeless Boxing, a northern Shaolin style with several shapes and forms.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 16, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Thank you.
> I hope you understand that martial arts has always been scrutinized and full of misunderstanding over the years. We tend to be sensitive about dishonesty.  The people on MT are a good group with a lot of knowledge, honesty will get more respect than titles, rank or boasting. Anything anyone says that is not fact or accurate or a lie will quickly be flushed out. We are kinda unforgiving like that.



Completely understandable.


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## oaktree (Apr 16, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Someone else had mentioned that there was a movie called Wumingquan (or was that you?), but I've never seen it. I'll have to check that out some time. And the Wuxingquan that I was refering to was Shapeless Boxing, a northern Shaolin style with several shapes and forms.


The Wuxingquan form in references to Shaolin is the five animal form Wu also means five. I could not find a Shaolin one in regards to no form, shapeless style in English , Pin yin or hanzi. There is a Wudang style that has a shapeless boxing though.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 16, 2017)

I guess I should say this. I had many teachers in the past. Most of them are dead now, and I don't like to talk about it much, so I apologize for being somewhat secretive about my past. I am emotionally attached to my family and I take my art very seriously. I get really offended when people disrespect the dead. In this case, someone mentioned Bruce Lee, who I never met in person but who I am also very fond of as a martial artist. Some of Bruce Lee's students were my teachers for a while before they passed away, so I tend to get a bit touchy whenever someone talks about Bruce Lee's "rotten" corpse. I really don't feel that was necessary. But I digress. Please don't judge me for my anger earlier, as I feel it was justifiable. Happy Easter to everyone on MartialTalk (yes Dale, that includes you too).


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2017)

Anybody have a torch or a pitchfork I can borrow?   I left mine at home.  .


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 16, 2017)

oaktree said:


> The Wuxingquan form in references to Shaolin is the five animal form Wu also means five. I could not find a Shaolin one in regards to no form, shapeless style in English , Pin yin or hanzi. There is a Wudang style that has a shapeless boxing though.



Thank you for the correction. I wish I could edit my previous post now, but it has a time limit for doing so. I will be more careful next time.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 17, 2017)

As of today, I'm changing the structure and the way we train in Wumingquan (this isn't the first time) so everything I posted previously on this thread in regards to Wu Ming Kung Fu is no longer accurate or up-to-date. Please keep that in mind, for those who trend this thread regularly. Wumingquan is a living art. The new structure is madeup entirely of Chinese Gung Fu, but that could change again in the future so just as a forewarning, try not to get stuck on it.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

Fake mouthboxers suck.


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## Grenadier (Apr 17, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Well, my philosophy is the same as others, just like my punches and my kicks. I just chose to call it Gung Fu to be honest, because I like Chinese martial arts. (And because I used to practice CMA, moreso than other styles). Wumingquan incorporates a lot of the same techniques, methods and theories found in the southern Chinese Boxing systems in the Hong Kong area. I suppose you could attach it to their Taoist or Buddhist philosophies. As for me personally, I was influenced by Bruce Lee's philosophy, like everyone else.




I'm going to be rather straightforward with you here, and repeat the words of wisdom passed down by Bob, the former owner of this forum... 

You are *NOT* Bruce Lee.

If you're going to synthesize your own system, you'd better have real credentials that can be proven, and solid footing in at least one respectable martial art.  Being a dilettante in the martial arts world doesn't make you an expert, especially if you don't have the credentials to back you up. 

The above suggestion isn't done out of malice.  I'm simply trying to tell you how to avoid a lot of trouble in the future.  Otherwise, you're going to be constantly on the defensive, trying to justify your art's existence to a multitude of critics.  These critics are going to be far more acerbic than why you see in this community.

You already have a lot of suspect info in your description of your training.  For one thing, no self-respecting Shotokan kyu rank holder (the brown belt you mentioned) would have the gall to call himself "Sensei."  If his actual sensei made him teach out of his garage, with no supervision from at least an established dan grade holder, then it shows irresponsibility in a glaring manner.  Furthermore, if you claim lineage from a black belt holder in Kyokushin Karate, it's a sure bet that there will be a lot of people interested to know who this "Erick Klow" character was, since almost every Kyokushin school keeps records of who earned their black belts from them.  

Again, you may very well have the credentials, and I'll simply remind you that when you make such statements, you're going to be scrutinized.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Good question.
> 
> Just for the record, I do not promote violence in any way. Sometimes things happen that we have no control over. Yes or no? And sometimes we may end up in situations where you have to fight your way out. Yes or no? So what I'm going to tell you is very honest and personal. I have been in a few brawls out in the street (maybe I'm just being humble). Sometimes things got broken. Sometimes people got injured. Not all the time, but sometimes. I have received several sprains and fractures over the years, usually due to my own stupidity and improper body alignments. Most of the injuries I received were to my hands and feet. But over the years, I am improving and getting better at not getting injured so much. Of course, I don't get in as many fights as I used to either. I guess now I just have to have faith that I can defend myself in a street fight. Until then, I'll just keep on training.
> 
> ...



Fake mouthboxers need not be respected nor shown any respect.

They need be shown the door.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

No Name was whining about why I was pooping on his thread in a few private messages.

Really? Seems you cannot see the forest through the trees.

Some fake wannabe who teaches "privately" has his panties in a bunch because the adults showed up and started asking why someone with no real discernable background is teaching in the first place.

His second PM states the he supposedly lives near me and that he would love to go out for drinks, or play boardgames.

LMAO.

You were asked some serious questions and deflected pretty much all of them.

You listed a whole slew of Wing Chun terms but I am betting money you really have no idea what you are talking about and even less what you are physically doing.  You never claim any teacher but claim training in all manner of things.

Mouthboxers suck.

Stop being one.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Do you two guys (Dale included) even practice martial arts? Or do you just troll the site, flame people's threads, knit-pick at what we say and make yourselves look bad in front of everyone else who's actually trying to learn? If so, how are you not banned yet? It seems like a lot of wasted time and energy to be honest. I mean, if you really have to ask questions like this, then you need to do less talking and more studying. Welcome to the internet. Search for the answer you seek, then return to me when you have found it. Right now, neither of you are ready to taste my tea. You are both way too "challengy" and (judging by your line of questioning) not quite educated enough to pass judgments or make constructive criticisms. Study more. Train more. Talk less. I'm sure the Karate forum, or Google search engine could probably help you out (Goju-ryu, Wado-ryu, Shito-ryu, Shorin-ryu, Uechi-ryu, Shotokan and Kyokushin are all tiger-crane styles of Karate), so you might want to try there first before coming to me. This thread is not about Karate, it's about Wu Ming Kung Fu, so I will ask you both again very nicely to please be respectful and mindful of where you are and what you say. After going to work as a security guard (I'm a club bouncer, bodyguard and S.E.O.) dealing with drunkards, drug dealers, prostitutes and challengy idiots who just want to fight all night, the very last thing I need when I get home and check my notifications is to get bombarded by ignorant questions and rude statements from people I don't even know in reference to things that have absolutely nothing to do with my style, or me as a person. So please, have courtesy while you're here or I'll have you reported for trolling my thread. Thank you.
> 
> Dale, you were already warned once. I asked you nicely. But since you wanted to continue being rude, I already reported you to the staff. I shall make an example out of you, so that others can see that I'm not messing around. Please leave. Go talk that internet toughguy crap on your own threads. I won't tolerate it here.



Son,

I have been training in martial arts for 39 years this October. Longer than you have been alive on this planet. I have lived in Asia for extended periods of time, and can speak, read and write, fluent Japanese and read and write Chinese, and butcher my way through it verbally.  I am an Acupuncture Physician and Doctor of Oriental Medicine here in Florida.  So yeah, son, I am more than qualified to question your bullsh it.

Seems you have also challenged me in your post.

"Right now, neither of you are ready to taste my tea."

Your rather pathetic watered down fortune cookie spouting silliness wants none of what I offer for real.

You are not a bodyguard nor a bouncer. 

You might be a security guard, but you have some serious delusions that are affecting your ability to deal with reality. You do not deal with drug dealers or whores, etc.  You are talking out of your behind.

Report me for asking questions and not taking your fortune cookie speak Bullsh it as gospel?

You are seriously misinformed, son.

Seriously.

I never challenged you, I asked you questions and you deflected pretty much all of them.

Seems you are not what you claim to be.

Stop talking and go find yourself a real teacher. 

No one here believes your tales.


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## DanT (Apr 17, 2017)

I think we'd be a lot more understanding if you list the styles you trained in and for how long and under whom. Example:

-7 years TKD under Joe Bob
-8 years Baoquan under Bob Joe
-5 years BJJ under Job Boe

Etc.

You say you studied under students of Bruce Lee, cool, share their names with us so we can learn who they are. Share the names of all your teachers and for how long you trained with them as well as the style. At least this way we can give you some benefit of the doubt.


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## oaktree (Apr 17, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> As of today, I'm changing the structure and the way we train in Wumingquan (this isn't the first time) so everything I posted previously on this thread in regards to Wu Ming Kung Fu is no longer accurate or up-to-date. Please keep that in mind, for those who trend this thread regularly. Wumingquan is a living art. The new structure is madeup entirely of Chinese Gung Fu, but that could change again in the future so just as a forewarning, try not to get stuck on it.


Huh? I think a different approach would be better in presenting your style.

Here is an example of presenting a style created. We will call it Lee style Baguazhang.
Lee style Baguazhang was created by Henry Lee after his training in liang style Baguazhang after more than a decade as a private student of the inheritor of the 5th generation liang style master David liang.
Master Lee who also is a first degree black belt in judo and escrima, wanted to add more of a throwing approach and knife orient empty hand technique to his Baguazhang.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

DanT said:


> I think we'd be a lot more understanding if you list the styles you trained in and for how long and under whom. Example:
> 
> -7 years TKD under Joe Bob
> -8 years Baoquan under Bob Joe
> ...




This would mean we would actually find out that he has not really studied under anyone.

Me thinks he has read books and watched a lot of youtube instruction.

He deflects direct questions...


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## DanT (Apr 17, 2017)

DaleDugas said:


> This would mean we would actually find out that he has not really studied under anyone.
> 
> Me thinks he has read books and watched a lot of youtube instruction.
> 
> He deflects direct questions...


Weird question but do you go to the Baltimore competition? Your name is so familiar...


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Which field? I have tested it repeatedly in sparring, modifying things ever so slightly as I progressed. In fact I'm still modifying things as I go. Sometimes it seems like there's always something to learn. As I learn, I grow. As I grow, I change. That too has much to do with Wumingquan's philosophy. However, the core foundation of Wumingquan remains very simple and unchanging. The techniques are very basic beginner level. Somewhat similar to Krav Maga in a little way, but different.
> 
> I have only been to three sport fighting events in my life. I earned a 1st place trophy for Sanshou kickboxing, a 2nd place trophy in amateur Western boxing, and a 3rd place trophy in Judo wrestling. That was between the years of 2005 and 2010, if my memory serves. Other than that and a few bare-knuckle street fights here and there, I've never really had to use my style in the field to be honest.



Quoting all his posts before he backpeddles.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Some of the CMA elements in Wumingquan include:
> 
> - Siu Nim Tau
> - Dok Gerk Siu Nim Tau
> ...



Who did you train in Wing Chung with?


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## Jenna (Apr 17, 2017)

This reads like a very angry thread.  Anger can make it difficult to assimilate passionate disagreement and can render that argument like whistling in the wind.. just sayin


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Well, that's the thing about my style. It's not unique. It's not new, except for the name of it. I coined that term just recently. But the style itself isn't new, it's been in practice now for over a decade. And there's nothing unique about it. Now if I really wanted to, I suppose I could present a crazy argument that my style is "like JKD but with TCMA forms" but then that still wouldn't make it very unique now would it? So really, the only thing unique about my style is it's name and the fact that it's not Jun Fan.



He thinks he is Bruce Lee...


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> The reason I say that my style is self-defense system is because we practice techniques which are illegal in most sport fighting competitions. Mou Meng Gung Fu (or Wu Ming Kung Fu, whichever you prefer) utilizes snake-like finger strikes, tiger-like raking nails and eagle-like gouging or clawing techniques as well as some dragon-like elbow and knee strikes targeted at the groin area or the back of the head. There are also some mantis-like trapping and bone breaking methods incorporated into this system as well, while our footwork and defensive techniques are almost crane-like in nature. Another reason I decided to call it Wumingquan, for its Chinese roots. Wumingquan favors the usefulness of any means to defend oneself, even to the extent of grabbing hair or clothes. Brass knuckles, electrical stun guns,  pepper spray, knives and firearms  are also not out of the equation in this style. We don't train in weapon forms or drills per say but we do train with weapons. We also keep our shoes on most of the time when we train, unless we're on the mats. Another thing people will notice is that this style does not have height or weight divisions, nor does it separate gender.



if you have never trained in these styles?  How do you know these skills are like them?


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Thank you for your response. I'll try to answer your question the best I can.
> 
> I no longer see styles, so I no longer think in terms of "this style is better than that style" or what have you. I'm not really in the martial arts to compete, I'm just in it to train and better myself. It's a very personal thing for me, which is why I don't teach publicly. And I will be the first to tell you that my style isn't everyone's cup of tea. I'm not trying to build a clan like the Gracies, or go out and look for fights against other martial artists. My system offers basic self-defense training. Nothing more and nothing less. The beauty of my style is in its simplicity. I never said it was all-encompassing or the best style out there. My style wasn't designed to make people the best. It was designed to make people better and to arm them with something so that they are not completely defenseless if they ever find themselves in a situation. I encourage everyone to go out and learn new styles and new methods, because my art is open to learning new things. It's very simple and open to improvement. But I also encourage people to master the basics before attempting to go out and learn new things, and that's really all I have to offer is the fundamental basics of self-defense. If someone were to learn only a single takedown, but then practice that one takedown for several years until they have mastered it, then what good will ten thousand punches and kicks be against that one takedown? That's kind of the philosophy that I have when I train in martial arts. I hope that answers your question.
> 
> The reason I decided to join this MA forum is to be around people that I can identity with. It's fun to talk about martial arts. And of course, yes, I wanted to present my style to the MA circle so that others will get a better understanding of me as well. I couldn't come in as a TCMA practitioner, or as a MMA practitioner, or as a JKD practitioner or what have you. So I came forward as a Wumingquan practitioner. This is my style, as opposed to what they do.



Seems he has not had indepth instruction from real teachers.  Why else would he do the fortune cookie speak deflection.

Remember, he is claiming to be a Bodyguard Bouncer S.E.O.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I didn't incorporate any styles into Wumingquan, only the techniques. Wumingquan has only one form or taolu. Everything else is mostly two-man drills and sparring. So the answer is not as straight forward as one might expect, because there were a lot of different styles and teachings over the years. Wumingquan borrows ideas from a lot of different styles, not always evenly either. Some styles will have had more influence than others, and that will reflect in the way a Wumingquan practitioner focusses himself and trains. But as far as the very basics and what we have written, Wumingquan in its current state was influenced by TCMA, MMA, JKD, Judo or Aikido and bare-knuckle boxing. That's not all there is to it, but of all the styles I came into contact with, I would have to say that those 4-5 styles probably had the most influence. TCMA being mostly a reference to the southern Shaolin short-fist styles like Wing Chun Kuen and other styles associated with the Five Elders.
> 
> On a side note, it's always funny when I train with my buddies and people approach us wanting to learn Wumingquan, because they always go to the biggest person in our group. The biggest person in my circle right now is a man who weighs about 400 lbs. Everyone always thinks he's the headmaster because he's so big and in Wumingquan we don't wear any special uniforms or belts to distinguish ranks, so people tend to automatically assume that the biggest student must be the headmaster. We've actually had some fun with people because of that. I'm rather small compared to some of the guys I train with, so it throws people off when they walk up and discover that the 400 lbs wrestler is actually a student of the 140 lbs. kickboxer. It makes for some fun pranks. Good laughs. I love my family.



More BS about making a system from other systems he knows NOTHING about.


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## CB Jones (Apr 17, 2017)

Man, this thread turned savage.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

He will never post up video, as then we can see how horrific this BS is.

His photos show some horrific material as well with elbows up, huge openings and offerings that a real fighter would exploit.

Thank god, he is teaching this made up chop suey drek privately.

Bruce Lee Wannabees mouthboxers suck.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Man, this thread turned savage.


 
BS never should be respected nor reverred.

Mouthboxing and those who purport it, suck.

Maybe those who make up chop suey should not and then attempt to bring it on a real martial arts forum?

Remember this guy is claiming he is teaching this BS privately and not out to publicize or promote it yet his avatar says the complete opposite. Why would you create an avatar with the uber private secret squirrell mishmash you teach, unless you really want people to know what it is....

He seems unable to wear his big boy pants.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2017)

Jenna said:


> This reads like a very angry thread.  Anger can make it difficult to assimilate passionate disagreement and can render that argument like whistling in the wind.. just sayin



and who asked your opinion?

no one...


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 17, 2017)

Thread locked pending staff review.


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