# exercise for fast non telegraphic kicks



## mook jong man (Jun 23, 2008)

I remember somebody telling me years ago that in Hong Kong they do an exercise for developing fast and non telegraphic kicks. 
The exercise involves putting most of your weight on the leg that you are going to kick with and trying to minimise any shoulder movement whilst doing the kick as fast as you can. ​You generally find that if you don't kick fast and retract the leg fast then you might fall over.
 Having done this exercise a few times i find that when i go back to kicking normally my shoulders don't move as much and my kicks are faster.
 Any learned people have any theories on how this may work.?​


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## geezer (Jun 23, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> I remember somebody telling me years ago that in Hong Kong they do an exercise for developing fast and non telegraphic kicks.
> The exercise involves putting most of your weight on the leg that you are going to kick with and trying to minimise any shoulder movement whilst doing the kick as fast as you can. ​You generally find that if you don't kick fast and retract the leg fast then you might fall over.
> Having done this exercise a few times i find that when i go back to kicking normally my shoulders don't move as much and my kicks are faster.
> Any learned people have any theories on how this may work.?​



Boy that's a tough one. _If_ I understand you, you are saying that you heavily weight the kicking leg, which would usually be the lead leg in a typical advancing-step position. That would normally have the following consequences:

1. You would have to _shift your weight_ to kick, regardless of how fast you move, which would slow your kick down _and_ telegraph its delivery. 
2. By committing an excessive amount of weight to the lead leg, _you become vulnerable to knee shots and sweeps_.
3. It sounds like the only way you pull this off is to throw and retract your kick before your body has time to topple forward. That's a dangerous over committment. If your kick is deflected, you will go down. And, in the Wing Chun/Tsun I've been exposed to, _you don't retract a kick_ as you might in Karate. You drop it to the floor from its extended position and use it as a step forward....pressing the attack.

But then again I could have it all wrong....


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## mook jong man (Jun 24, 2008)

In our lineage both your feet are equal not one in front of the other and if we step in or kick to bridge the gap the other leg automatically comes up to be in line with the other foot.
 But im only thinking of it as an exercise and i didn't think about how it would work for those wing chun branches that have one foot forward.


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## matsu (Jun 24, 2008)

from a WC beginners point of view and a reasonably experienced karateka surely it would be  easier to distract your opponent by throwing lots of hands. this would stop any telegraphing happening.
lots of people esp from other styles and i see it sooo many times in the ufc where the hands are dropped as they kick.....DOH!! thats why liddell gets to counter so easily methinks

i have not started kicking in wing chun per say but i will still be wary of not pulling my leg back,some of the people i train with now are so quick they would grab it in an instant.

just my tuppence
 matsu


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 24, 2008)

Why would you want to? 
If you start trying to use stamp kick from a sparring range (distance), you are going to end up getting kicked yourself

The point of 'invisible kicks' is not they are so fast that they canot be seen, but that you are in a position where your opponnt cannot see your feet (clinch range), to the side of your opponent


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## matsu (Jun 24, 2008)

kamon......consise and bang on as usual...:shock:


mjm. i understand the reasoning for training in certain ways to eliminate or correct certain faults or tendencies and cant comment from a WC perspective bue to my in experience.

matsu


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## stone_dragone (Jun 24, 2008)

As I read the OP, it seems that it's a reasonable exercise to try...if it works for you, great, if not, don't use it.  

One of the things that has gotten lost in the shuffle of this conversation is that it is presented as an _*exercise*_, not a fighting tactic. Few would argue that the push-up or sit-up have direct 1:1 applications for fighting, and they are exercises, too.

I'm willig to give it a try and I'll let you know if it works for me.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 24, 2008)

Quite so, *SD* :tup:.

For myself, with over a decade in kung fu, I don't see a problem with trying such an excercise if it works for you.  As long as it doesn't become an instinctive part of your technique it wont do much harm.

However, I do think that 'telegraphing' is a much more difficult thing to suppress than simply not moving the shoulder before the kick is on the way.  An opponent with decent zanshin (what we call combat/situational awareness and alertness) is going to be aware of the whole body and will pick up on _intention_ before the attack begins.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2008)

It seems to me that the exercise is worth trying but as to telegraphing the height and range of the kick would make a big difference as well. 

Not telegraphing a low kick while in close like Wing Chun tends to fights would seem to me to not be that big of an issue. It is pretty easy to do a low short rang kick quickly with power and not telegraph it. And it is a lot harder for the opponent to see if you are close. However as the range and height increases so does the amount of telegraphing that the body does in order to properly execute said kick. 

The only training I know of (and I am sure there are others) that helps decrease telegraphing is throwing a lot of kicks to strengthen the muscles that are necessary to execute the kick and thereby reducing the need for any telegraphing.


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## brocklee (Jun 26, 2008)

We're in such a close range that if the opponent can see you're legs, he should be punched in the head cause he's looking down.  Get used to moving around an opponent while stamp kicking at the same time.  If you've gotten used to blocking and throwing a punch at the same time, work on step kicking and punching at the same time.  I use the kick simply to get the fellows eyes to go down because it's a major distraction.  The other guy usually looks down because it's so unexpected.  Practice on Mook Jung's leg.  That's what it's there for 

You'll never telegraph one of our kicks if your shoulders remain square and you've learned how to separate the upper half from the bottom.  Like a tank


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## Si-Je (Jul 2, 2008)

We do that type of drill sometimes.  I used to do heel kick to WC side kick over and over so I could shift to each kick faster and faster.  
It's really good to do it on a kicking pad too.  (We'd strap a kicking pad to a tree and drill that too).

It seemed to help me.  
When we kick with one foot forward (advanced stance?) we usually kick with the lead leg.  It gets there faster, and use the kick as a step into your opponent.  
You could drill from advanced stance and leave your weight on the back leg as you do heel kick over and over, and do the same when kicking a kicking pad.  (It'll work your lower back and hips really hard kicking against resistance).  Making your kick more solid, faster, and your balance better when kicking.

Of, course, you could do the same drills with basic stance too.  (my fav.)
Play with it, do heel kicks, then side kicks, throw in a hook kick every now and then too.  All with the same leg.  

note:  don't worry about hands when doing this drill.  Just keep them up in the ready position.  Add chain punching and such later.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 2, 2008)

It's a lot easier to hide a motion while you are moving then it is to hide it while standing still.  You'd likely have better luck working on setups then drills that don't translate directly to what you are trying to do, which is spar.

If you don't want someone to see your kick coming, get there attention somewhere else (ex punch them in the face, while they are blocking, kick), its much more effective then trying to have them not see it by throwing it with as little motion as possible.


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## brocklee (Jul 2, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> It's a lot easier to hide a motion while you are moving then it is to hide it while standing still.  You'd likely have better luck working on setups then drills that don't translate directly to what you are trying to do, which is spar.
> 
> If you don't want someone to see your kick coming, get there attention somewhere else (ex punch them in the face, while they are blocking, kick), its much more effective then trying to have them not see it by throwing it with as little motion as possible.



quite true in most circumstances but it doesn't really apply where WC is concerned.  We remain square for a number of reasons, one is so that we have 2 halves that work together as one, and the other is to minimize telegraphing due to extremely large motions.


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## Zero (Jul 25, 2008)

Ok, I don't do wc anymore sorry but I have done enough to appreciate the applications from a simple level.  Having done TKD and karate for almost twenty years I have a bit of experience in kicking, low and high.

In my experience, the focus should not be so much on the non-telegraphed/shadow/invisible kick etc but on _timing_. Aside from in close low kicks and knees while in combination with boxing and grappling, your kick is one of the most telegraphed attacks there is. Particularly such as your round house kick from the back leg.  There is no way an experienced fighter who is also versed in kicking is not going to pick up on this from a static environment. 

The beauty of such lethal and powerful attacks is in their execution with timing: you work some in-close combos, you rock your opponent with a quick jab, or they step out from their own attack and then, wham, as they are moving or retracting you are already expanding (Bruce Lee talk there, sorry) into them.  

I have fought in quite a few muay thai competitions so appreciate the roundhouse off the back leg for pure power but being a karetaka have always favoured the front kick; be it a snap kick or hook kick.  This is much easier to mask when done correctly.  From the front foot it is much closer to your opponent's head anyway (while you are just out of range of punches).  As said before, if you throw a straight or jab and as retracting flick up your front kick, moving and chambering your front knee directly up the centre line this can be very hard to see coming.  The leg actually moves up under the opponent's chest/chin and then the kick (be it face of foot or shin) snaps up to the side of the head/temple/jaw (or hook from the alternative side with heel connection). 

Of course, again, when fighting an experienced opponent you need to work this in with timing.  It sounds crazy but sometimes even slowing the first part of this kick down (in bringing the knee up) works beautifully when timed right as you then whip/snap the kick out at a totally different tempo.

Don't get me wrong. I try everything I can not to telegraph also - but it is the fighter with great timing that will be one of your worst and hardest fights.

On a training note, if not already, why not complement what you are doing with timing training with moveable targets (double-end bag/bounce-back bag) and training partners.


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## Si-Je (Jul 25, 2008)

You could drill bagwork while kicking, tan sau, and punching to re-inforce your ability to move multiple actions as one.
Or just punching while kicking.

This way your not wasting motion and forward force while you punch.  If you can punch them you can kick them too.  They may be preoccupied by the punch allowing you to land your kick.  Or see the kick but not the hand.  Either way you make contact.  Hopefully with both.

The main thing that seems to make WC kicking telegraph less, is that you do kick from a stationary position.  When kicking a roundhouse from the back leg in a front "side" forward stance you will have to shift your weight to free up the back leg to kick and allow the front foot to pivot.  This will telegraph big time.

But, say kicking from basic stance or with the front foot in advanced stance will reduce the level of telegraphing your kicking.  

We drill making the kick your actual step forward.  
"Marching" with heel kick or hook kick kicking while kicking the bag.  Alternating each leg as if you were marching.  Then drill it with tan sau, or with dai sau and/or chain punching.
This way, whenever your opponent moves your ready to enter and follow through spontaneously.

If your kick IS your step it will telegraph less as a kick, giving your opponent less time to react.  

This should improve your power and speed in kicking.


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## kaizasosei (Jul 25, 2008)

> have any theories on how this may work.?




the kicking leg must be losened at the hip to some degree and the base leg must be sturdy because if the kick is blink of an eye fast, it could take you off balance if the angle is a bit off.

j


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