# Yang Mian



## TaiChiTJ

This is an interesting website with some video: 


http://www.yangmian.com/default.asp


----------



## Steel Tiger

Just checked out the site (its Aussie, woohoo) and the videos.  The Steel Hand and Steel Body stuff looked like pretty standard qi legerdemain to me, that would deduct from its uniqueness.  I don't know about the elbow freestyle, looked like they were just doing the same thing over and over, and the last guy, Guiseppe, everything he threw was way too high.  Maybe he's just short, but most of his techs were aimed above someone's head.

The school is clearly associated with the Sydney University which should lend it some credibility, but I don't think the videos did them good service.


----------



## pete

since finding this under the tai chi chuan forum and poking around a bit at their site, i'm not sure this is tai chi or 'internal' martial art. not saying good, bad, or indifferent. but here's my rationale: 

(1) tai chi chuan is a balance of hard and soft, characteristically hard on the inside and soft on the outside (where xingyi, also internal is hard on the outside and soft on the inside. these guys look to be training to develop external hardness, iron bell cover, etc. 
(2) internal arts train to respond with full consciousness and mind intent, where external arts train countless repetitions of pre-programmed responses in order to deliver unconscious reflex response (or the term 'muscle memory') - read the 'freestyle' description on the site and see where these guys fit. 
(3) tai chi chuan works on the principles of complimentary opposites (yin & yang).  for every up there is a down, for every left there is a right - in looking at the video of their 'power punch' exercise, i see total relaxation but no counterbalance, all energy is going in the same direction. this is similar to what i experienced in a Systema workshop i attended several years ago.  not like tai chi chuan at all, not internal by definition.

maybe it's good stuff, maybe not... nobody will ever really know from a couple of paragraphs and video clips.  those are just some observations from the gallery.  maybe someone who has trained with these guys and understands their art will post more...

pete.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Kung fu yes, External yes
Internal no, Taiji no


----------



## jamesjbs

Hello,
As a new member to this site, I found this thread from 2007, regarding Yang Mian.

As a student of Yang Mian, I'd like to say that it is very much an internal style, focusing on the development of fajing as may be seen in the videos on youtube and on the Yang Mian website. www.yangmian.com 
 Its focus is upon developing flexibility and power instead of specific techniques.  This allows practitioners of any martial arts to adopt Yang Mian as a supplement to their existing training in order to quickly raise their levels.

This results in a practitioner developing power which can be heard up to 30m away in a short period of time (2 years!) 

1. The training does not rely on external strength, rather, the cultivation of chi to develop fajing. Once base power develops, the techniques are then learnt in a relatively short time, without years of repetition of forms.

2.The elbow freestyle you saw uses some of the _26_ different elbows of the Yang Mian System. In addition there are many other aspects to learn including steel body,steel hand,ghost hand,reflex mind etc,etc.

You are right, Systema would be the only other place to use the entire body offensively but I do not know if it is using internal power.

May I suggest checking out a site : which gives a Taiji practitioners viewpoint of Yang Mian. www.taichiacademy.com.au/courses.php?id=21


----------



## Xue Sheng

Note: In Chinese martial arts the whole body is considered a fist
.
Also for the record

Master Yang is not associated with the Yang Taiji family nor do I see anywhere on his site where he claims to be associated with the Yang Taiji family or Taijiquan for that matter. His background appears to be 

Trained with Chan Zi in Monkey System Kung Fu
Trained with Yi Chen, in the Shaolin martial arts, philosophy, and Buddhism
Trained in "other" martial arts


----------



## blindsage

jamesjbs said:


> As a student of Yang Mian, I'd like to say that it is very much an internal style, focusing on the development of fajing as may be seen in the videos on youtube and on the Yang Mian website. www.yangmian.com


If you can refer to a specific video that demonstrates fajin that would be great because I don't see any.




> This results in a practitioner developing power which can be heard up to 30m away in a short period of time (2 years!)


What does this mean? The practioner's movement is so fast it breaks the sound barrier?



> You are right, Systema would be the only other place to use the entire body offensively but I do not know if it is using internal power.


Many martial arts do this. And all of the 'internal' arts use the entire body offensively while using 'internal power'.



> May I suggest checking out a site : which gives a Taiji practitioners viewpoint of Yang Mian. www.taichiacademy.com.au/courses.php?id=21


Strategically placed marketing is your reference?


----------



## ggg214

never heard about it!


----------



## jamesjbs

Interesting replies, In answer

I did not intend to imply that Master Yang had association with Yang Taiji family.The holder of this website is however also a student of Master Yang.Thats all, I thought it might offer some info. 
I also dont know the guy, so the 'Strategically placed marketing is your reference' statement is lost. Breaking the sound barrier? What are you talking about..?
For my part, after 8 years of Brazilian Jujitsu, I came to this style which offers everything I want and thats the end of it for me. Talk is cheap check it out for yourself.


----------



## mograph

I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. 

After all, although yiquan (for example) is now established and its founder's reputation is strong, if one were to come across yiquan for the first time through its YouTube videos, one would think it was pretty stupid. Its reputation seems to exist independently of those videos, but that reputation was built over time, through martial challenges at the beginning.

Although in this day and age, I doubt that we would see an old-style "all comers" challenge to prove the worth of Ying Mian and its founder outside the organization. However, I don't see why established martial artists couldn't visit, and if impressed, spread the word.

I myself, however, have seen how the claims of a founder can become quite exaggerated by its adherents. The only claims that hold water for me are specific, first-person claims such as "I could only do _that_ before, and I can do _this_ now." I don't place much worth in general claims about what an art _can_ do. To me, they sound too much like marketing claims, with the risk of a cult-like devotion based on those marketing claims. I've been there, and made those claims myself ... erroneously.

Anyway, it's hard to judge an internal art by its videos, or any general claims of its adherents. Maybe it's something special, maybe it's not, maybe it's a collection of established techniques under a new name. If I lived in Australia, I might check it out.


----------



## Xue Sheng

jamesjbs said:


> Interesting replies, In answer
> 
> I did not intend to imply that Master Yang had association with Yang Taiji family.The holder of this website is however also a student of Master Yang.Thats all, I thought it might offer some info.
> I also dont know the guy, so the 'Strategically placed marketing is your reference' statement is lost. Breaking the sound barrier? What are you talking about..?
> For my part, after 8 years of Brazilian Jujitsu, I came to this style which offers everything I want and thats the end of it for me. Talk is cheap check it out for yourself.


 
I did not say he did imply that he was associated with the Yang family, I was just posting based on previous posts and my previous assumption that he claimed he was Taijiquan... and he did not

However I am sorry I do not see anything fajing or "internal"

This is not to say it is bad, it may be very good, I just do not agree with the fajing and internal claims.


----------



## blindsage

jamesjbs said:


> I also dont know the guy, so the 'Strategically placed marketing is your reference' statement is lost.


The link you posted for a Taiji perspective has all the hallmarks of a marketing piece.



> Breaking the sound barrier? What are you talking about..?


This was a response to your statement, "This results in a practitioner developing power which can be heard up to 30m away in a short period of time (2 years!) ". What are you talking about?



> For my part, after 8 years of Brazilian Jujitsu, I came to this style which offers everything I want and thats the end of it for me. Talk is cheap check it out for yourself.


I'm glad you found something you like. The videos actually look fine to me, and in order to evaluate it's quality I would definitely agree that I would have to experience it in person. The problem is that some of the claims you make don't make sense, and the comments you chose to respond to don't address them.



> This results in a practitioner developing power which can be heard up to 30m away in a short period of time (2 years!)


What does this even mean, and what does it prove?



> The training does not rely on external strength, rather, the cultivation of chi to develop fajing.


There is not a single example of fajin in any of the videos on the website. I don't see any evidence of this statement.  Could you refer me to a specific video?



> You are right, Systema would be the only other place to use the entire body offensively but I do not know if it is using internal power.


This is incorrect. A lot of arts use the entire body offesively, and all of the 'internal' arts use the entire body while using internal power.

None of my comments have to do with the quality of the art. They are specific references to specific statements.


----------



## jamesjbs

Most of your statements are fair enough. I can see how you would assume the marketing angle, although it was more my enthusiasm than anything else.
The whole thing is you'd need to check it out in person as you say.


----------



## 5rings

jamesjbs said:


> Hello,
> As a new member to this site, I found this thread from 2007, regarding Yang Mian.
> 
> As a student of Yang Mian, I'd like to say that it is very much an internal style, focusing on the development of fajing as may be seen in the videos on youtube and on the Yang Mian website. www.yangmian.com
> Its focus is upon developing flexibility and power instead of specific techniques. This allows practitioners of any martial arts to adopt Yang Mian as a supplement to their existing training in order to quickly raise their levels.
> 
> This results in a practitioner developing power which can be heard up to 30m away in a short period of time (2 years!)
> 
> 1. The training does not rely on external strength, rather, the cultivation of chi to develop fajing. Once base power develops, the techniques are then learnt in a relatively short time, without years of repetition of forms.
> 
> 2.The elbow freestyle you saw uses some of the _26_ different elbows of the Yang Mian System. In addition there are many other aspects to learn including steel body,steel hand,ghost hand,reflex mind etc,etc.
> 
> You are right, Systema would be the only other place to use the entire body offensively but I do not know if it is using internal power.
> 
> May I suggest checking out a site : which gives a Taiji practitioners viewpoint of Yang Mian. www.taichiacademy.com.au/courses.php?id=21


 yes I believe it to be an Internal art, and I like the idea of fast development in the style, the freestyle movements were Impressive, lots of elbows at odd angles dismantle any good defense, it's like watching Bon Sao gone wild........This type of defense works for me. very Impressive!
"Alway try to think outside the Traditional Box"


----------



## Drifter

G'day guys and gals. Hopefully I can clear a few things up for anyone interested in a bit more info about the Yang Mian system. I have currently been training with Master Yang for almost 1.5 to 2 years. Basically once I started to understand how it worked I never looked back, I would say that its easy to learn, but takes time and patience to master. Basically the more you train the better you get, very simple. Some people learn fast,some people learn slow, theres nothing wrong with that and dont let anyone tell you otherwise. 
Yang Mian's system is internal as mentioned earlier, I have a friend who also does Tai Chi and says it is very similar, which rely's on fa jing and to obtain fa jing properly you must be relaxed no matter what move you are trying to do. Once you understand how to be relaxed, you will pick up the power, you will strike faster, use less energy and when you hear that thump, you know your getting it right.

So far in the time I have been training I have been taught and know off by heart, 10 different elbows, 2 different punches and a few hammer fist variations, 1 grappling technique ( I haven't focused on grappling yet). Have been doing steel hand since I started, steel body, steel forearm and have developed basic fa jing in most of my moves. Im by no means perfect, developing proper fa jing takes time, and ive still got a lot more power that can be developed. the thing that I found is the thump isnt always a good indication of how strong you are, usually you have to hit someone to find out. Ive already did lots of testing with my mate who also trains with me and we test each other and yes, I can tell you now, it hurts on the inside, and usually leaves a slapping pain on the outside due to the speed of the move. From what Ive seen of Bruce Lee's documentary's and training footage, he definitely has fa jing. Another thing that I noticed, Qi plays a big role in this style of martial arts. He also teaches a few moves which are not shown or mentioned which develop the Qi which I believe is the key to it all. From what Ive gathered about Qi so far is that producing Qi sort of like charges you like a battery charger charges the battery, except theres no limit to your charge, you just keep developing stronger Qi the more you try to develop it. That Qi you develop in turn makes your martial arts much more stronger.

I was very scepticle at the start as everyone has a right to be, a lot of masters claim alot and rarely deliver. The thing I found as the best course of action is to give it a try. Previously Ive done Taekwondo, not very long mind you, regardless it doesn't require rocket science to figure out if a teacher is good or not and the best way to find out is to train with them for a while. No risk, no reward. After doing taekwondo I heard about master Yang from a mate who had been already training, so I gave it a try, once I did it, I never went back to taekwondo. Also im not trying to say that taekwondo is not good, its just that I found that it wasn't for me.

The first step you need to consider when choosing your martial arts style is to look at what you want to get out of it. Do you want defense, offense, counter-attack, etc or a combination of them. If you have worked out what you want, all you need to do is simply do a bit of research on which martial arts focuses on your chosen style and go for it. Best way to find a good master is through friends or word of mouth or to ask around, even complete strangers, I do it all the time. Once you have heard about a few masters, go try them out. Try to find masters that teach traditional martial arts or close to it, your better off for it, and make sure they teach conditioning, I cant stress how important that part is, make sure you do it.

As most of you have learned or will learn, practice makes you good, a lot of practice makes you very good, and no your not born with great martial arts skills. I know this is a lot of info to take in, but I believe martial arts should be shared to everyone, not kept secret and forgotten, which a lot of masters tend to do.

Hopefully I have been of some help.


----------



## blindsage

Drifter said:


> Yang Mian's system is internal as mentioned earlier, I have a friend who also does Tai Chi and says it is very similar, which rely's on fa jing and to obtain fa jing properly you must be relaxed no matter what move you are trying to do. Once you understand how to be relaxed, you will pick up the power, you will strike faster, use less energy and when you hear that thump, you know your getting it right.


The theory sounds good, but I don't see this demonstrated anywhere on the website, can you refer me to a video that shows this?



> From what Ive seen of Bruce Lee's documentary's and training footage, he definitely has fa jing.


None of the systems that Bruce Lee studied taught fajin, if you see it in his movement then you are confused as to what fajin is.


----------



## Drifter

Sorry, I have the wrong spelling for fajin. Actually your right Blindsage, I dont think there is any videos of the sound coming from the elbows and punches.
 All Ive seen are videos of the river rock breaking 



 and Charlie doing his freestyle dragon elbow http://www.yangmian.com/videos/freestyle/52.wmv another video of Tony punching a pavement brick in half 



. Ive trained with charlie and Tony, Ive only met Rami a few times, Rami has already gone back to Germany and is currently teaching now, Rami already knows a form of martial arts, he wouldn't say what it was but when I saw him do a demonstration it looked like Krav Maga, but I could be wrong. Here's a video of Rami being taught by Master Yang, this is probably a good example of the style I could find, by the way, Rami only trained for around 3 months with Master Yang 



. Actually its strange why they haven't done any videos on the sound that is produced, I suppose it has to be seen to be believed. To be honest I had to actually train with Master Yang before I believed any of his martial arts system, but once you try it, you soon understand and you can make your own mind up after that.

Regarding Bruce Lee, that was just my opinion, that is just one of my theories, but I cant prove otherwise, and who's to say that he revealed all that he learned. Just something to ponder.


----------



## jamesjbs

There is  a video somewhere on the following site http://www.yangmiansteelhand.com/index.html with the power sound coming from body when executing the punches.
(Drifter, like you, I also had to go and see it for myself).


----------



## Xue Sheng

Power sound coming from anywhere does not equal fajin

fajin requires Internal training, proper relaxation (both internal and external), proper body alignment, flexibility and breath coordination with movement.


----------



## blindsage

Drifter said:


> Sorry, I have the wrong spelling for fajin. Actually your right Blindsage, I dont think there is any videos of the sound coming from the elbows and punches.


Fajin is not demonstrated by a sound. Someone posted a Chen Xiaowang video on another thread that demonstrates what fajin looks like. None of the Yang Mien videos demonstrate this. That's not saying the system isn't good, or any value judgement period. It's just saying that I don't see anything related to fajin. Fajin is not just hitting relaxed with waist power, which _is_ what the videos show. This is a great method for generating power, but it is not fajin.



> All Ive seen are videos of the river rock breaking
> 
> 
> 
> and Charlie doing his freestyle dragon elbow http://www.yangmian.com/videos/freestyle/52.wmv another video of Tony punching a pavement brick in half
> 
> 
> 
> . Ive trained with charlie and Tony, Ive only met Rami a few times, Rami has already gone back to Germany and is currently teaching now, Rami already knows a form of martial arts, he wouldn't say what it was but when I saw him do a demonstration it looked like Krav Maga, but I could be wrong. Here's a video of Rami being taught by Master Yang, this is probably a good example of the style I could find, by the way, Rami only trained for around 3 months with Master Yang
> 
> 
> 
> . Actually its strange why they haven't done any videos on the sound that is produced, I suppose it has to be seen to be believed. To be honest I had to actually train with Master Yang before I believed any of his martial arts system, but once you try it, you soon understand and you can make your own mind up after that.


I'm not making a statement whether or not I 'believe' in Master Yang's system. I'm saying a specific statement was made and the evidence is not there to back it.



> Regarding Bruce Lee, that was just my opinion, that is just one of my theories, but I cant prove otherwise, and who's to say that he revealed all that he learned. Just something to ponder.


Bruce is one of the most studied MAists who ever lived. We pretty much know what he studied. None of it taught fajin. But again, relaxed hitting with waist power is not fajin.


----------



## ggg214

i am confused.
why do you say relaxed hitting with waist power is not fajing?


----------



## blindsage

ggg214 said:


> i am confused.
> why do you say relaxed hitting with waist power is not fajing?


Because fajin requires more, see the Chen Xiaowang video.


----------



## Xue Sheng

ggg214 said:


> i am confused.
> why do you say relaxed hitting with waist power is not fajing?


 
First define relaxed hitting

And it is not waist power; Power is directed by the waist. If you are using power from your wasit you are not getting the power from your root.

Fu Zhongwen

Chen Zhonghua

Chen Xiaowang

Han Xingyuan


----------



## mograph

Ah -- for some reason, those old directions now seem clearer. "Begins with the feet, directed by the waist" and all that. The waist focuses, channels, directs the power which issues from the feet/root/ground. 

It's almost as if the waist directs your own power in the same way that you direct the opponent's power. Not too much intervention involved, because that would break the connection.

... or maybe I'm thinking too much.

(Hey, Han Xingyuan was my teacher's teacher!)


----------



## Drifter

blindsage said:


> Fajin is not demonstrated by a sound. Someone posted a Chen Xiaowang video on another thread that demonstrates what fajin looks like. None of the Yang Mien videos demonstrate this. That's not saying the system isn't good, or any value judgement period. It's just saying that I don't see anything related to fajin. Fajin is not just hitting relaxed with waist power, which _is_ what the videos show. This is a great method for generating power, but it is not fajin.
> 
> 
> I'm not making a statement whether or not I 'believe' in Master Yang's system. I'm saying a specific statement was made and the evidence is not there to back it.
> 
> 
> Bruce is one of the most studied MAists who ever lived. We pretty much know what he studied. None of it taught fajin. But again, relaxed hitting with waist power is not fajin.





> Power sound coming from anywhere does not equal fajin


I dont believe I said that sound equals fajin, I merely mentioned that sound is produced while doing it.



> fajin requires Internal training, proper relaxation (both internal and external), proper body alignment, flexibility and breath coordination with movement.


Yes that is correct, I dont know who that was directed at, regardless, my post intention was not to describe fajin, but to describe Master Yang's art style in a simple way for others to understand. All those little things you mentioned will come to you with practice, it cant be told to you, but the master will guide you in that direction, you need to discover and understand it for yourself. 

From what Ive learned, fajin basically means explosive power. To achieve it you need to be relaxed, the power should start from your feet, but I thought that was a common thing all martial artists should know regardless if your trying for explosive power or not. For those who didn't know that, you will learn it naturally while practicing your martial arts, I know that because thats how I found out. I can see this post is heading off topic, so Im just gona end it at that. 



> Ah -- for some reason, those old directions now seem clearer. "Begins with the feet, directed by the waist" and all that. The waist focuses, channels, directs the power which issues from the feet/root/ground.
> 
> It's almost as if the waist directs your own power in the same way that you direct the opponent's power. Not too much intervention involved, because that would break the connection.
> 
> ... or maybe I'm thinking too much.



Your on the right track mograph , it all begins with the feet. Not sure I understand what you mean by the other part you mentioned? 

To jamesjbs, which days do you train, do you come to the gym, I train on Saturdays, from about 9am-12pm.

For those who are interested, good luck in your martial arts endeavor's and never give up and dont listen to the negative's until you try the martial arts your self. If anyone has any more questions to ask, feel free to PM me.


----------



## ggg214

i don't know whether there is a special definition of fa jing. from the posts above, i feel that only internal MAs have fajing, but external don't.
in my understanding ,fa jing is to use your  explosive power on your opponent, that's all.it doesn't consider whther your power comes from waist or foot. 
meanwhile, i have an opinion that CMA is very economical. if your waist can enhance your explosive power, why do you use it only in directing? it's a big waste!
when  talking about chinese old direction, it's better to read chinese version. about waist, i have found several sayings, such as "&#21457;&#20110;&#33136;" or "&#20027;&#23472;&#20110;&#33136;", the meaning is not just directing.


----------



## jamesjbs

Gidday Drifter,
I live in Brisbane and head down to Sydney to train.
Your posts have been pretty much my experience of Yang Mian too.
I dont have much to add.








(A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still)


----------



## Xue Sheng

ggg214 said:


> i don't know whether there is a special definition of fa jing. from the posts above, i feel that only internal MAs have fajing, but external don't.
> in my understanding ,fa jing is to use your explosive power on your opponent, that's all.it doesn't consider whther your power comes from waist or foot.
> meanwhile, i have an opinion that CMA is very economical. if your waist can enhance your explosive power, why do you use it only in directing? it's a big waste!
> when talking about chinese old direction, it's better to read chinese version. about waist, i have found several sayings, such as "&#21457;&#20110;&#33136;" or "&#20027;&#23472;&#20110;&#33136;", the meaning is not just directing.


 
Can you have any power in your waist without a root?


----------



## East Winds

There is a lot of nonsense talked about Fa Jing/Jin. There is no connotation of "explosive" in Fa Jing. Fa Jing just means  "issue energy". That is, ANY of the Taiji energies. And I do believe you need a root although the root does not necessarily have to be in the feet.

Very best wishes


----------



## Xue Sheng

OK this is driving me nuts, mostly because I did not know, but I just asked my wife

It is f&#257; jìn, &#30332;&#21185; not f&#257; j&#299;ng &#30332;&#31934;

And I am as guilty as the next guy for using the term fajing

Not wanting to hijack this thread another post will follow


----------



## East Winds

Xue Sheng,

You are of course absolutely right. However the terms have been used interchangeably for many years which is why I used the Fa Jing/Jin format.

Very best wishes


----------



## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:


> Xue Sheng,
> 
> You are of course absolutely right. However the terms have been used interchangeably for many years which is why I used the Fa Jing/Jin format.
> 
> Very best wishes


 
So is Kung Fu and Wushu 

I have used them interchangably for many years too... but from now on...it's fajin for me


----------



## ggg214

Xue Sheng said:


> Can you have any power in your waist without a root?


 
XUE SHENG

i don't want to deny the effect of a root in fa jin. 

but i don't agree with that the waist is only used in directing power.


----------



## Xue Sheng

ggg214 said:


> XUE SHENG
> 
> i don't want to deny the effect of a root in fa jin.
> 
> but i don't agree with that the waist is only used in directing power.


 
It is not only used for directing power, but it is rather important for fajin and its function is a bit more like the hub of a wheel in that case. However power does not come "only" from the waist if we are talking fajin. The function of the waist is, for the most part, in the case of fajin to direct power especially if you are talking a Neijia. However I personally believe you will find the same function in a waijia. As hard as my Sanda Sifu tried to not discuss things in neijia and waijia terms he was saying and doing the same thing just with more modern terminology

Fajin is an efficient release of energy and to do that you need to be relaxed, minimize muscular tension and have a root. Not necessarily in the sense we tend to think about it as rooted via the yongquan (&#28263;&#27849;), you can be laying down, seated, on one foot or on your knees and be rooted.

But to say relaxed hitting and waist power is all you need for fajin is not correct since the power is not generally generated in the waist but power form the waist can most certainly contribute to it (it can also hinder if you have to much tension) and in English to say Relaxed hitting needs to have the term defined as to what you mean. I can keep my arms very relaxed and use my waist to generate power to start swinging them around like a windmill and then start hitting stuff but that is not fajiin.


----------



## mograph

ggg214 said:


> ...but i don't agree with that the waist is only used in directing power.


 If you're saying that the waist can play a role in generating the power, being part of the whole-body generation of power, yet still respecting its role as the director of generated energy, then I'm with you, for what it's worth. 

In other words, you're saying that if the waist opted out of the power-generation circuit and focused solely on direction, the whole-body connection would be broken at the waist, no?


----------



## Drifter

Ive just gone and did a bit of info gathering by asking other students from my class regarding yang mian's system and also on fajin. They all pretty much had a similar description in there own words.

So far from what Ive collected, fajin from what Ive understood, is apparently all internal, Yang Mian's system is internal and also external, basically when we initiate our attack it starts soft, but then at the point of impact we become springy/tense, elastic is probably a more accurate description. That is from Master Yang's description, not in those exact words mind you. Again Im not saying that we use Fajin, but I believe we do in some form or another.

Also If you watch carefully in the Chen video you will see one hand will always touch his body before doing his attack, from what Ive been told, thats where he gets his internal power from, by channeling it from his body. Again thats just a theory so don't criticize me.

When we train we are basically trying to get that kind of sudden explosive fajin style power like in the chen xiaowang video. From some of the more experienced students, which have been doing it for over 10 years, to achieve that kind of power like what you see from Chen Xiaowang takes a few decades or more. The students who have been doing it for over ten years dont even have Chen Xiaowang's power, its similar because I can see that they are very fast and from what Master Yang demonstrated on me, he physically punched me in the stomach and I flew back at least a meter. I believe it is similar, but I have no proof other then comparing from what Ive actually seen with my own eye's.

So far from what Ive learnt with Master Yang is our internal part we learn is to protect our inside, so therefore we can take outside forces and feel very little to no pain. The external is the hardness you feel when we punch or elbow. So far Im able to take a full punch to the abs or body and just shrug it off with little pain, from another student in my class, thats another story, Im still developing the internal strength, which takes longer.

PS. This is all just from my experience and from other people's experience and knowledge, I would very much like to give proof of such things as Ive mentioned above by doing some demonstrations of myself, but I wont do that unless my Master gives me permission to do otherwise. Sorry.


----------



## Xue Sheng

I forget this quote from time to time but it is very applicable here



> During the end of the Ming dynasty, some none CMA scholar created the word "internal" so Chinese can argue about "internal" vs. "external" for the next 300 years. --- Adam Hsu


 
And 366 years after the Ming Dynasty fell we are still arguing about it

Also see the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan -1669, just after the Ming dynasty.


----------



## mograph

Drifter said:


> Also If you watch carefully in the Chen video you will see one hand will always touch his body before doing his attack, from what Ive been told, thats where he gets his internal power from, by channeling it from his body. Again thats just a theory so don't criticize me.


This isn't aimed at you. I wouldn't place too much stock in that sort of theory, because I don't believe that someone of his level would be so disconnected as to need to touch himself with his hands in order to ... send power from his hands to his body? From his body to his hands? He has it or he doesn't have it -- he doesn't need to touch himself to "channel" it. This view of fa jin perpetuates the idea that internal energy is somehow like Green Lantern's charging his Power Ring. These ideas tend to keep students from learning real internal power by describing it in impossible, unrealistic terms, and it perpetuates the idea of "Chinese" as "exotic".

I suspect the hand thing is just a habit he developed over the years.

Just my opinion. 
More practice.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Drifter said:


> Also If you watch carefully in the Chen video you will see one hand will always touch his body before doing his attack, from what Ive been told, thats where he gets his internal power from, by channeling it from his body. Again thats just a theory so don't criticize me.


 
Not meaning to criticize but your wrong. People like Chen Xiaowang (19th generation Chen family) do not need to touch their body to get internal power. I have never meant Chen Xiaowang but I have meant and trained a bit with Chen Zhenglei (19th generation Chen family) and he can generate power and hit you with it from just about any place and there is no need to touch his body to do it. The same goes for my Yang taiji Sifu who is technically 5th generation Yang and a student of Tung Ying Chieh. He will seem very relaxed and can hit you hard with what appears to be little effort on his part, and he is not touching his body. 

Chen Xiaowang is simply doing a demo in the attached video. In real fighting applications it would not be as obvious. 



mograph said:


> This isn't aimed at you. I wouldn't place too much stock in that sort of theory, because I don't believe that someone of his level would be so disconnected as to need to touch himself with his hands in order to ... send power from his hands to his body? From his body to his hands? He has it or he doesn't have it -- he doesn't need to touch himself to "channel" it. This view of fa jin perpetuates the idea that internal energy is somehow like Green Lantern's charging his Power Ring. These ideas tend to keep students from learning real internal power by describing it in impossible, unrealistic terms, and it perpetuates the idea of "Chinese" as "exotic".
> 
> I suspect the hand thing is just a habit he developed over the years.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> More practice.


 
Exactly. 

I can tell you from experience that Chen Zhenglei does not need to channel by touching his body and he can be very explosive in application. And both Chen Zhenglei and Chen Xiaowang come from pretty much the same training background


----------



## Drifter

> Not meaning to criticize but your wrong. People like Chen Xiaowang (19th generation Chen family) do not need to touch their body to get internal power. I have never meant Chen Xiaowang but I have meant and trained a bit with Chen Zhenglei (19th generation Chen family) and he can generate power and hit you with it from just about any place and there is no need to touch his body to do it. The same goes for my Yang taiji Sifu who is technically 5th generation Yang and a student of Tung Ying Chieh. He will seem very relaxed and can hit you hard with what appears to be little effort on his part, and he is not touching his body.



Ok cool, atleast that info is cleared up. Thanks for the info.

All this debating about fajin is giving me a headache lol. You have a good point there Xue sheng, regarding about all this argument about internal/external. Maybe its as simple as it appears to be and we could just be looking too hard into it. Its driving me nuts because you hear so many different opinions I keep ending up back at square one.

I asked Master Yang today regarding fajin, he said its internal and to understand it, you need to feel it. Thats basically all he said regarding fajin. Also another thing he said is he doesnt explain too much when he is teaching us because we need to understand it first by discovering it before we can actually learn it,(does that make sense?) once we discover it then we can delve deeper into what it is he is teaching us.

anyway, thanks for the reply's all.


----------



## East Winds

Drifter,

_*"we need to understand it first by discovering it before we can actually  learn it",*_

I completely understand this philosophy!!!! After 20 years of studying/learning Chinese Internal Arts I still suddenly get a flah of light and ask my teacher why he hadn't told me about this particular thing before. His reply is usually "I have been telling you that from day one. You just haven't been listening"

Good luck with your studies.

Very best wishes


----------



## mograph

Indeed. Can everything be immediately grasped through verbal or written explanation?

... or videos?


----------

