# Coming to aid of LEO



## loki09789 (Mar 4, 2004)

Okay, I am bored and skimming old/dead issues for ideas:

For the LEO's/or those civvies who have done this:

What would be the best way to help out an LEO in need, most importantly so that you don't get mistaken for a bad guy, and secondly so that you don't make a bad situation worse?


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 4, 2004)

Well if you are an off duty sworn LEO and you see an officer in distress as you come by him i would identify myself as a police officer so he doesnt think you are with the person he is dealing with or someone else coming in to add to the situation.
When you are dealing with a situation and you see another person you dont know if he is friend of foe. So identiftying youself is the first thing. Second ask him or her if they are ok and need help? Then go from there.

As for a citizen if you are in that situation. I would recommend asking him are you ok, do you need some help? Then going from there.

You dont ever just want to rush in on a LEO when there is a situation. You have no idea what has happend or what is going on and if you rush in you might get hurt or shot.


Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				loki09789 said:
			
		

> Okay, I am bored and skimming old/dead issues for ideas:
> 
> For the LEO's/or those civvies who have done this:
> 
> What would be the best way to help out an LEO in need, most importantly so that you don't get mistaken for a bad guy, and secondly so that you don't make a bad situation worse?


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## Shodan (Mar 4, 2004)

Sorry.......brain not working today- what is an LEO?

  Thanks-
               :asian:  :karate:


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## Ceicei (Mar 4, 2004)

Shodan said:
			
		

> Sorry.......brain not working today- what is an LEO?
> 
> Thanks-
> :asian: :karate:


Law Enforcement Officer.  Also known as a police officer, highway patrol, sheriff, etc.


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## Ceicei (Mar 4, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Okay, I am bored and skimming old/dead issues for ideas:
> 
> For the LEO's/or those civvies who have done this:
> 
> What would be the best way to help out an LEO in need, most importantly so that you don't get mistaken for a bad guy, and secondly so that you don't make a bad situation worse?


Ask.  Don't just rush in to help without knowing what you can/can't do.  The LEO will be best able to determine if he needs assistance or if his own backup is coming on the way.

Some things are pretty obvious though.  Suppose a LEO is shot, laying there on the ground, and the bad guy is getting away?  Your best thing is to help the LEO by offering first aid or whatever, perhaps call 911 and basically be a very good witness if you saw the incident.  It is usually advised that chasing the bad guy is not a wise choice as he may be armed or in a situation that you may not be aware.

- Ceicei


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## Tgace (Mar 4, 2004)

If i was in a bad spot, alone and "rolling" with a bad guy, I would appreciate any help I could get. I would only recommend that the help be limited to holding him down and trying to get him cuffed. Leave any striking, spraying, etc up to the LEO. Identify yourself and say something like "Im here to help! or What do you need me to do?". If theres a group of LEO's dealing with something, stay out of it. Stay out of weapon issues unless its obvious a "good guy" is going to be killed and then be aware that you could be mis-identified in the process. Your right to use force in defense of yourself or another is practically the same under the law (with a few exceptions and liability issues) as mine.

My partner was involved in a foot chase with a guy who was faster and not wearing 10-20lbs. of gear, a bystander sprinted past him and tackled the BG.  Now Im not recommending that you help every LEO you see, but if you do get involved you are on your own in the legal realm (unless the LEO ordered you to assist, which they do have the power to do and you can be charged with refusing in NYS if the request was reasonable).


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## TonyM. (Mar 4, 2004)

Back in '82 I pulled an assailant off the back of a Burlinton VT Police officer that was struggling to cuff a suspect on the ground. I'd do it again.


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## Tony (Mar 5, 2004)

Well I was watching Police Action and I saw this once incident where a female Police officer had stopped his guy on the highway! She checked his background and found he had been in jail. He seemed all nice at first and didn't seem to mind having his van searched. But it took a turn for the worst when the guys punched her to the ground unconscious! Luckliy a good samaritan stopped to help her, the guy had escaped but he was locked up for 60 years I think! The guy who helped her used her radio to get help from her colleages and an ambulance was called!


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## OULobo (Mar 5, 2004)

Tony said:
			
		

> Well I was watching Police Action and I saw this once incident where a female Police officer had stopped his guy on the highway! She checked his background and found he had been in jail. He seemed all nice at first and didn't seem to mind having his van searched. But it took a turn for the worst when the guys punched her to the ground unconscious! Luckliy a good samaritan stopped to help her, the guy had escaped but he was locked up for 60 years I think! The guy who helped her used her radio to get help from her colleages and an ambulance was called!



Yep she had a broken jaw and was instantly knocked unconscious. A trucker came to her aid when he saw the attack. 

I saw another one where a clearly intoxicated man with his two young children in the car was stopped for swerving and he attacked the officer, and when the officer went down, the man mounted him and kept pounding him with the children watching and screaming. The situation went on until his backup came. Where was the civilian help there?


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## loki09789 (Mar 5, 2004)

It was before the cops got there but I helped a security guard trying to apprehend a shop lifter who had run out of the mall, across the street and into a scrub brush area on his way to a housing area.  I jumped into this at the point where the guy and the guard were entering the scrub...  the guard was spent from chasing the guy through waist deep snow, so I called to him, told him I also worked security (at the time) and offered to help.

He told me the guy had a knife (Fun) and I took an angle on the guy until I was between him and the housing area.  Lucky for me the guy was also tired and I could move faster through the snow than him.  The bad thing was that a school bus was letting kids off about 75 yards away and I was seriously concerned that the guy might get stupid, so I held my ground.  Luckily he only faked a charge at me and then changed direction parallel to the back of the houses along the highway

Long story short (too late), I was pacing the guy when the cops came on scene from the highway and started pointing guns and telling him to get down.  I stopped REAL fast then.  It was funny, but I stood around to make sure they didn't think I was fleeing, but they didn't even talk to me or anything.  I walked slowly back to my car, in case they started calling or suspecting me, but nothing.  I didn't ask if they wanted a statement or anything because I was applying for LEO jobs and didn't want my actions to be confused with an "audition" for them.

I have to assume that the security guard called in my description when it was reported to the cops...


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 5, 2004)

Tony

I remember seeing that show. The offender was calm until he saw he was not going to just get off. He beat her pretty bad. I am glad to see she survived and also that a civilian stopped to help her.

Its like a box of chocolates you never know what you are going to get.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 




			
				Tony said:
			
		

> Well I was watching Police Action and I saw this once incident where a female Police officer had stopped his guy on the highway! She checked his background and found he had been in jail. He seemed all nice at first and didn't seem to mind having his van searched. But it took a turn for the worst when the guys punched her to the ground unconscious! Luckliy a good samaritan stopped to help her, the guy had escaped but he was locked up for 60 years I think! The guy who helped her used her radio to get help from her colleages and an ambulance was called!


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## Tony (Mar 5, 2004)

Chicago Green Dragon said:
			
		

> Tony
> 
> I remember seeing that show. The offender was calm until he saw he was not going to just get off. He beat her pretty bad. I am glad to see she survived and also that a civilian stopped to help her.
> 
> ...



Hi Chicago Green Dragon

I watch that programme from time to time! It was sickening to see that guy beat the female Police Officer like that! Makes you realise that they do such a hard job! The guy who helped her was willing to help her after the incident, but I don't blame him because he was probably in fear of getting hurt himself. he did acted in selfless way and probably saved her life!
There are many incidents though where Police officers have been beat up and no one has helped them!


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 5, 2004)

Tony

It sickens me to see anyone get beat, but esp. a LEO. The scarey thing is that many people don't realize the severity of fighting with the police. If a person has no reguard for the law and fights the police what do you think he would do to a civilian.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				Tony said:
			
		

> Hi Chicago Green Dragon
> 
> I watch that programme from time to time! It was sickening to see that guy beat the female Police Officer like that! Makes you realise that they do such a hard job! The guy who helped her was willing to help her after the incident, but I don't blame him because he was probably in fear of getting hurt himself. he did acted in selfless way and probably saved her life!
> There are many incidents though where Police officers have been beat up and no one has helped them!


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## moving target (Mar 5, 2004)

> If a person has no reguard for the law and fights the police what do you think he would do to a civilian.



The same thing


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 5, 2004)

Actually they might do worse. Since a LEO is armed and typically civialians arent.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				moving target said:
			
		

> The same thing


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 11, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Okay, I am bored and skimming old/dead issues for ideas:
> 
> For the LEO's/or those civvies who have done this:
> 
> What would be the best way to help out an LEO in need, most importantly so that you don't get mistaken for a bad guy, and secondly so that you don't make a bad situation worse?


First of all an LEO is a civvie!

Second of all if I saw a cop getting stomped into the ground, like any other civilian, I would go to his aid, but not specifically cause he's a cop.


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 11, 2004)

WARNING! STRONG LANGUAGE!!! How not to get your A$$ kicked by police! (LINK REMOVED DUE TO ADULT CONTENT/LANGUAGE as per MT Rules & Policies)


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## KenpoTess (Jul 11, 2004)

Sorry Gary, but as per MT's Rules & Policies, No Adult Content/Language allowed as we do have Minors as members.  

Thanks

~Tess
-MT S. Mod-


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 11, 2004)

First rule when assisting an LEO always use the Radio and request aid to the Officer. First make sure officer is safe and secure and needs any immeadate first aid. Then go to radio and key the mic. 

"Dispatch clear the Channel emergency Traffic. Officer Down Officer Down! _Give Location to Dispatch_" Then protect the officer from further harm 

You will see LEO's coming out of the woodwork trust me I have been in a few Officer needs assist calls.

Keep the rotating lights on (so other officers can find the unit faster) and kill the siren so the officer can hear the sirens of other officers it is for psychological reason so he or she knows help is coming. Always ask the officer his or her name(look at name badge if unable to respond but continue to talk with him or her reassure them they will be fine. If possible get the name of any wife or husband tell the officer the wife or husband needs them and wants to see them again. 

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## loki09789 (Jul 12, 2004)

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> First of all an LEO is a civvie!
> 
> Second of all if I saw a cop getting stomped into the ground, like any other civilian, I would go to his aid, but not specifically cause he's a cop.


LEO are not a civilian.  Why? Because they have and exercise enforcement authority that goes beyond the civilian level.  By virtue of the job description there will be situations that they have to deal with very differently than a civilian would.  Civilians are not in the job of enforcement or detaining people on the average.  If we, as civilians encounter similar situations we are generally obligated to retreat if reasonable.  An LEO is usually going the other way while we are retreating.  Thus the point of the thread.  What are some things/safe practices/good ways to come to the aid of an LEO who 'seems' to be in need of assistance w/o complicating the situation further or getting shot/confused for a Bad Guy?

Good intentions aside, there are some smart practices that will make such civic minded, well meaning actions productive instead of stupid.


It would be like saying a soldier is a civilian in regards to Geneva Code or Combative/Non Combative status in a theater of operation, or an EMT is a civilian in terms of the laws in regards to their ministering first aid treatments.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 12, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> LEO are not a civilian. Why? Because they have and exercise enforcement authority that goes beyond the civilian level. By virtue of the job description there will be situations that they have to deal with very differently than a civilian would. Civilians are not in the job of enforcement or detaining people on the average. If we, as civilians encounter similar situations we are generally obligated to retreat if reasonable. An LEO is usually going the other way while we are retreating. Thus the point of the thread. What are some things/safe practices/good ways to come to the aid of an LEO who 'seems' to be in need of assistance w/o complicating the situation further or getting shot/confused for a Bad Guy?
> 
> Good intentions aside, there are some smart practices that will make such civic minded, well meaning actions productive instead of stupid.
> 
> ...


Sorry, police are civilians, just like judges, lawyers, senators, congressman, dogcatchers, UPS drivers, and the President of the United States - all civilians.
Unless you're on active duty in the armed forces, you're a civilian!


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## loki09789 (Jul 12, 2004)

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> Sorry, police are civilians, just like judges, lawyers, senators, congressman, dogcatchers, UPS drivers, and the President of the United States - all civilians.
> Unless you're on active duty in the armed forces, you're a civilian!


If the point is that these folks are no better than 'civilians' then I agree with you. If the point is that their jobs are the same as 'civilian' jobs, then I disagree. The point isn't a battle of the semantics of 'civilian' but what and how is the most effective and safe way to come to the aid of an officer.

LEO, Military and other civil servants that you listed, and some you didn't, swear oaths and are on the government payrole. That makes their job duties different than those of the private sector. Not to mention that, like Military and even firefighters and such, LEO - by virtue of their oath, payrole source, and job description - head into or stand up to physical danger where a 'civilian' is really only required to defend himself or herself.

If you want to discuss this connotation of 'civilian' further, then please PM me so we don't take this discussion topic on a tanget or start another thread.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 12, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> If the point is that these folks are no better than 'civilians' then I agree with you. If the point is that their jobs are the same as 'civilian' jobs, then I disagree. The point isn't a battle of the semantics of 'civilian' but what and how is the most effective and safe way to come to the aid of an officer.
> 
> LEO, Military and other civil servants that you listed, and some you didn't, swear oaths and are on the government payrole. That makes their job duties different than those of the private sector. Not to mention that, like Military and even firefighters and such, LEO - by virtue of their oath, payrole source, and job description - head into or stand up to physical danger where a 'civilian' is really only required to defend himself or herself.
> 
> If you want to discuss this connotation of 'civilian' further, then please PM me so we don't take this discussion topic on a tanget or start another thread.


It is not a question of semantics, it is a question of the United States Constitution, police are civilians.  Ask your elected representative, like the Mayor, if police are civilians, chances are they will say yes.


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## loki09789 (Jul 12, 2004)

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> It is not a question of semantics, it is a question of the United States Constitution, police are civilians. Ask your elected representative, like the Mayor, if police are civilians, chances are they will say yes.


So much for the demonstration of common courtesy......

This is not the topic of the thread.  I asked you if you wanted to discuss further this off topic discussion to take it to PM me or start a new thread.  Oh well.  We will have to disagree on this point.


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## Tgace (Jul 12, 2004)

While I was on a vacation, my partner was chasing a thief who was faster than him and not wearing 20+ lbs of belt, vest and boots. A speedy "civillian" sprinted past my partner and tackled the BG. Guy helped cuff and then asked if he could leave. Never asked for anything and didnt want any recognition. While I wont advise anybody to do the same, that guy gets my respect.


IMO, if you are going to help a LEO, help one who is alone (or if 2 are having a really hard time) and in trouble. If theres a mob of uniforms running about, stay out of it.


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## sifu nick (Aug 11, 2004)

As a Police Officer when engaged in potentially dangerous situation I would say the best thing you could do is call 911 and ask for back-up since due to circumstances beyond my control I may not have been able to. Otherwise actually putting yourself at risk alongside me I would frown upon unless it is an obvious life or death situation.  It is definetly a tough call.


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## Flatlander (Aug 11, 2004)

sifu nick, welcome to Martial Talk!  I see you've begun your posting, so keep it up!  If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.  Enjoy the forum, and happy posting!


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## shesulsa (Aug 11, 2004)

Flatlander, are you the official welcome wagon of MT?  Everytime a new user begins to post, you always welcome them and wish them happy posting.

 It's so sweet - kind of like...a DIAMOND in the rough...:lol:


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## OULobo (Aug 11, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Flatlander, are you the official welcome wagon of MT?  Everytime a new user begins to post, you always welcome them and wish them happy posting.
> 
> It's so sweet - kind of like...a DIAMOND in the rough...:lol:




He's just taking his Mod duties seriously and performing quite well.

 :wink1:  :ubercool:


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 11, 2004)

What helps in my case as a former Sheriff Deputy. I usually ID myself as a former LEO and ask if I can be of assistance. It is best to ask first unless of course the LEO is unable to respond due to the danger or a medical emergency to the officer.


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## Tgace (Aug 11, 2004)

Just as an interesting associated point, NY has this law. Never seen it charged myself, but its there....

NYSPL 195.10 Refusing to aid a peace or police officer.
A person is guilty of refusing to aid a peace or police officer when, upon command by a peace or police officer identifiable or identified to him as such he unreasonably fails or refuses to aid such peace or police officer in effecting an arrest, or in preventing the commission by another person of any offense.


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 11, 2004)

LOL! I can imagine the shock on someone's face when they are arrested when they tell you to go **** yourself when they are asked to assist. ^5 TGACE


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## Tgace (Aug 11, 2004)

Waiting for the right @$$%@&# to use this one on....


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## marshallbd (Aug 13, 2004)

Chicago Green Dragon said:
			
		

> Tony
> 
> I remember seeing that show. The offender was calm until he saw he was not going to just get off. He beat her pretty bad. I am glad to see she survived and also that a civilian stopped to help her.
> 
> ...


Not only did she survive, after reconstructive surgery, she is back on patrol....


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## marshallbd (Aug 13, 2004)

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> Sorry, police are civilians, just like judges, lawyers, senators, congressman, dogcatchers, UPS drivers, and the President of the United States - all civilians.
> Unless you're on active duty in the armed forces, you're a civilian!


Law Enforcement personnel are members of a paramilitary organization which puts them in the middle.  They have different rights and obligations (duties) than the average citizen.  They take an oath of office to perform those duties to uphold the law.  Civilians do not take an oath....that my friend is the difference. :asian:


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## OULobo (Aug 13, 2004)

marshallbd said:
			
		

> Law Enforcement personnel are members of a paramilitary organization which puts them in the middle.  They have different rights and obligations (duties) than the average citizen.  They take an oath of office to perform those duties to uphold the law.  Civilians do not take an oath....that my friend is the difference. :asian:



I disagree. Doctors take oaths, politicians take oaths and they are still civilians. Police officers are still liable for many things in civilian courts and they are still governed by civilian courts when off duty. The rights and duties given to them when they are on duty do not extend to them when they are off duty. Sounds pretty much they are civilians to me. They just get special goverment given powers during their work hours. In comparison all active military personel are governed by military courts all the time and as such are not civilians.


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## marshallbd (Aug 13, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> In comparison all active military personel are governed by military courts all the time and as such are not civilians.


Not true,  Military are subject to civilian law as well.  Then the UCMJ will be pressed.  I will concede that the civilian courts and civilian authorities will usually turn over jurisdiction to the military for punishment.  I understand what you mean about Police being civilian as they are refered to by the military as "civilian authorities".  however, in their case, I believe the oath to "protect and serve" is different than the hippocratic oath a doctor takes. It is more along the lines of the oath that is taken upon entrance into the military. Hence the Paramiltary moniker... Just my opinion and I am human so I could be completely wrong. :asian:


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## Tgace (Aug 13, 2004)

> The rights and duties given to them when they are on duty do not extend to them when they are off duty.


Not quite true. I am a Police Officer 24/7, on or off duty...my "powers" dont punch a time clock and are state wide (in NY). Not that Im going to jump into domestics off duty while Im with the family.... In NY there is a difference between Police and Peace Officers. Peace Officers powers are limited to location and job specification.


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 13, 2004)

The Military is also subject to the Double punishment clause which states you can and will be charged in civil courts and in the Military for the same crime if it violates the UCMJ. 

The same in Kansas a Peace Officer in Kansas if you are commissioned in this state you can go anywhere within its borders and have Police Powers and you can excerisce those powers.  However you must also respect other LE's boundaries at all timess.

IE never fish in another man's pond without asking first!


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## 8253 (Aug 14, 2004)

A civilian according to the Merriam Webster online dictionary defines a civilian under section 2A as one not on active duty in a military, police, or firefighting force.  This particularly means that while not on duty a LEO is a civilian, however where I work, all of the LEO's are on call all of the time.  This meaning that they are actually on duty 24/7.  To me this means that they do not meet the criteria for being a civilian.   
Just my opinion of my interpretation of the definition of a civilian.  I personally with or without the definition of a civilian do not believe that a LEO is a civilian.  I believe this due to the fact that a LEO has to put their own lives down for other people.  To me this really means that whatever the definition people should back up and think about what a LEO really does for people on a daily basis.  If people would quit watching episodes of COPS on TV where the scenes are chosen for the criteria of what is and is not allowed on regular tv, and start maybe looking at other cases, such as the more violent crimes that LEO's deal with on a daily basis, they wouldnt worry about whether a LEO is or is not a civilian.  Maybe they would just give them the respect that a LEO deserves for doing their duty.


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## OULobo (Aug 14, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Not quite true. I am a Police Officer 24/7, on or off duty...my "powers" dont punch a time clock and are state wide (in NY). Not that Im going to jump into domestics off duty while Im with the family.... In NY there is a difference between Police and Peace Officers. Peace Officers powers are limited to location and job specification.



So you are saying that when you are off duty you have the government given police powers. I'm not talking citizen's rights powers, like a citizen's arrest, I'm concerned with official police powers, like the power of arrest, power to detain, the power to search, ect.? You say your those powers are statewide? That must be unique to NY. Here in OH, a police officer is only allowed to use his government given powers if he is within the boarders of the government that gave him those powers; if he is a city cop, he can only operate within the city; if he is a county sheriff, he can only operate in the county; if he is a state trooper, he can only operate on state property like highways and interstates. Hell, until recently officers off duty weren't even allowed to carry thier service pistols off duty.


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## OULobo (Aug 14, 2004)

8253 said:
			
		

> If people would quit watching episodes of COPS on TV where the scenes are chosen for the criteria of what is and is not allowed on regular tv, and start maybe looking at other cases, such as the more violent crimes that LEO's deal with on a daily basis, they wouldnt worry about whether a LEO is or is not a civilian.  Maybe they would just give them the respect that a LEO deserves for doing their duty.



I personally think this is a very dangerous attitude. With all due repect to the police and their duties and responsibilities, like everyone in any industry, they are not capable of policing themselves. To not worry about their status as a civilian, is to not concern ourselves with the consequences of thier actions. I don't watch cop dramas, I've been on numerous ride alongs and I spent three months learning from the police exactly what is required of them, what they encounter and how the operate. Even if I didn't choose to experience these things, that doesn't mean that it should be taken for granted that all decenting opinions of police actions are based on late night TV "blue line" dramas. I give respect for the calibre of the individual person, not the badge they pin on.


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## Tgace (Aug 14, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> So you are saying that when you are off duty you have the government given police powers. I'm not talking citizen's rights powers, like a citizen's arrest, I'm concerned with official police powers, like the power of arrest, power to detain, the power to search, ect.? You say your those powers are statewide? That must be unique to NY. Here in OH, a police officer is only allowed to use his government given powers if he is within the boarders of the government that gave him those powers; if he is a city cop, he can only operate within the city; if he is a county sheriff, he can only operate in the county; if he is a state trooper, he can only operate on state property like highways and interstates. Hell, until recently officers off duty weren't even allowed to carry thier service pistols off duty.


From the NY criminal procedure law...

*NYSCPL 140.10 Arrest without a warrant; by police officer; when and where authorized.*

1. Subject to the provisions of subdivision two, a police officer may arrest a person for:

(a) Any offense when he has reasonable cause to believe that such person has committed such offense in his presence; and

(b) A crime when he has reasonable cause to believe that such person has committed such crime, whether in his presence or otherwise.

2. A police officer may arrest a person for a petty offense, pursuant to subdivision one, only when:

(a) Such offense was committed or believed by him to have been committed within the geographical area of such police officer's employment; and

(b) Such arrest is made in the county in which such offense was committed or believed to have been committed or in an adjoining county; except that the police officer may follow such person in continuous close pursuit, commencing either in the county in which the offense was or is believed to have been committed or in an adjoining county, in and through any county of the state, and may arrest him in any county in which he apprehends him.

3. _A police officer may arrest a person for a crime, pursuant to subdivision one, whether or not such crime was committed within the geographical area of such police officer's employment, and he may make such arrest within the state, regardless of the situs of the commission of the crime. In addition, he may, if necessary, pursue such person outside the state and may arrest him in any state the laws of which contain provisions equivalent to those of section 140.55._



Petty offenses are violations, crimes are felonies and misdemeanors. The CPL makes no distinction between "on or off-duty". 

Many States have such laws.


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## Tgace (Aug 14, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> I give respect for the calibre of the individual person, not the badge they pin on.


With all respect, to me that statement always rings as a veiled way of saying "I dont respect the Police for the job they do". (somehow everybody respects firemen though  ) Do you "respect" US Soldiers for the duty they do? Or do you have to get to know each of them and their work history first? There is a difference between respecting a persons service and respecting the person as an individual.

As to the Civilian Vs. (?) issue. Im not really solid with an opinion on that one. While Im not for creating an "Us vs. Them" atmosphere, there obviously is some sort of difference. Otherwise there wouldnt need to be things like "_Civilian_ Review boards" or "_Civilian_ Oversight committees" or "_Civilian_ employees in police departments" or "_Citizen_ Police academies".


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## 8253 (Aug 14, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> I personally think this is a very dangerous attitude. With all due repect to the police and their duties and responsibilities, like everyone in any industry, they are not capable of policing themselves. To not worry about their status as a civilian, is to not concern ourselves with the consequences of thier actions. I don't watch cop dramas, I've been on numerous ride alongs and I spent three months learning from the police exactly what is required of them, what they encounter and how the operate. Even if I didn't choose to experience these things, that doesn't mean that it should be taken for granted that all decenting opinions of police actions are based on late night TV "blue line" dramas. I give respect for the calibre of the individual person, not the badge they pin on.



It is a very dangerous attitude.  No body is capable of policing themselves.  As far as a LEO not being a civilian, i believe that i have already explained how i feel about that.  As far as the perception of most people of a LEO, most peoples perceptions are based on tv dramas.  I mean lets face it, how many people actually deal with LEO's every day.  Not very many.  I work in a County with only about 13000 people,and I have maybe talked to about 1000 to 2000 of them.  Repeatedly I might add.  That leaves about 11000 to 12000 people in this county alone who have not dealt with a LEO directly.  Yet if you ask these people who havent dealt with them their opinion, where do they draw their conclusions from.  As far as a badge goes, you are correct, it is not the badge, but the person.  However all LEO's do go into situations that are very dangerous to protect innocent people.  That is what I respect about the Deputies that i work with.


Originally Posted by OULobo
Here in OH, a police officer is only allowed to use his government given powers if he is within the boarders of the government that gave him those powers; if he is a city cop, he can only operate within the city; if he is a county sheriff, he can only operate in the county; if he is a state trooper, he can only operate on state property like highways and interstates.

This is just an informational correction, please dont take this the wrong way.  
In OH a police officer only has their powers in a particular jurisdiction unless assistance is asked for outside of that jurisdiction.  A Deputy Sheriff according to OPOTC is a Deputy Sheriff of Ohio.  Mainly the powers are used in a single jurisdiction.  A State Trooper has the authority to operate on any public roadway or property.  They however do not have the authority to handle a private property complaint.


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## OULobo (Aug 15, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> From the NY criminal procedure law...
> 
> *NYSCPL 140.10 Arrest without a warrant; by police officer; when and where authorized.*
> 
> ...



Then this is a differance between your state and mine as 8253 stated. OH officers can persue into other jurisdictions, but only if the offense was witnessed in thiers.


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## OULobo (Aug 15, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> With all respect, to me that statement always rings as a veiled way of saying "I dont respect the Police for the job they do". (somehow everybody respects firemen though  ) Do you "respect" US Soldiers for the duty they do? Or do you have to get to know each of them and their work history first? There is a difference between respecting a persons service and respecting the person as an individual.
> 
> As to the Civilian Vs. (?) issue. Im not really solid with an opinion on that one. While Im not for creating an "Us vs. Them" atmosphere, there obviously is some sort of difference. Otherwise there wouldnt need to be things like "_Civilian_ Review boards" or "_Civilian_ Oversight committees" or "_Civilian_ employees in police departments" or "_Citizen_ Police academies".



You can take my quote any way you want to, I stand by it just the same. The only respect I give an officer because of his badge is what the law requires, the rest is the same initial respect I would give any other human being regardless of occupation. 

I personally repect soldiers no more than anyone else, unless they have dones something more that deserves respect. I have met too many that are just in it because they don't have any other skills, needed to get out of town, just like guns, or just wanted to be a tough guy; no patriotism involved. I good individual that deserves respect will serve accordingly, so there is no need to respect their service, only the person that is serving. 

Not to be too picky, but _Civilian_ Review boards and _Civilian_ Oversight committees are things designed to monitor on duty officers, which as has been stated earlier in the thread (8253) are not considered civilian, they are not, however designed to monitor off-duty officers, which as has been stated earlier in the thread (8253) are considered civilians.


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## OULobo (Aug 15, 2004)

8253 said:
			
		

> It is a very dangerous attitude.  No body is capable of policing themselves.  As far as a LEO not being a civilian, i believe that i have already explained how i feel about that.  As far as the perception of most people of a LEO, most peoples perceptions are based on tv dramas.  I mean lets face it, how many people actually deal with LEO's every day.  Not very many.  I work in a County with only about 13000 people,and I have maybe talked to about 1000 to 2000 of them.  Repeatedly I might add.  That leaves about 11000 to 12000 people in this county alone who have not dealt with a LEO directly.  Yet if you ask these people who havent dealt with them their opinion, where do they draw their conclusions from.  As far as a badge goes, you are correct, it is not the badge, but the person.  However all LEO's do go into situations that are very dangerous to protect innocent people.  That is what I respect about the Deputies that i work with.



I guess I can agree with most of that, but please don't lump everyone into the TV educated masses. Some of us strive to learn things past the boob tube. Consequently, I have to say that I would respect anyone that goes into a dangerous situation to protect innocent people, but as we know, that isn't what is required of an officer, it is only what some (most) of them choose to do out of a greatly appreciated sense of duty and generocity. 



			
				8253 said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by OULobo
> Here in OH, a police officer is only allowed to use his government given powers if he is within the boarders of the government that gave him those powers; if he is a city cop, he can only operate within the city; if he is a county sheriff, he can only operate in the county; if he is a state trooper, he can only operate on state property like highways and interstates.
> 
> This is just an informational correction, please dont take this the wrong way.
> In OH a police officer only has their powers in a particular jurisdiction unless assistance is asked for outside of that jurisdiction.  A Deputy Sheriff according to OPOTC is a Deputy Sheriff of Ohio.  Mainly the powers are used in a single jurisdiction.  A State Trooper has the authority to operate on any public roadway or property.  They however do not have the authority to handle a private property complaint.



So I'm not far off base, if at all. Thanks for the extra info.


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## 8253 (Aug 15, 2004)

This has been an interesting topic and i appreciate your cander.  I look forward to future conversations.


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## Tgace (Aug 15, 2004)

http://www.s-t.com/daily/09-00/09-24-00/a01lo004.htm

Interesting article and dead on from a cops point of view.

As to the "respect" thing. I think that people mistake "respect" with some sort of fear or special treatment. What I mean is the occasional "Thank You for the job you do." I get from the odd passerby. They dont "know me" or the job I do. They are residents of the town that have seen our work in the news or on the occasional home scanner and appreciate our efforts. Very few of us are looking for "special treatment".


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