# Kenpo Question



## Mon Mon (Jan 20, 2003)

I do not study Kenpo but i am curious as i have read some of my Arts books I have heard how Kenpo came to Japan. I am wondering what is the relation to Japanese Bujutsu and Kenpo? Also What was the first style of Kenpo in China and how did Kenpo become Kung Fu or how are the 2 similar and different in techniques or philosiphy? 


Thank You


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## theletch1 (Jan 22, 2003)

The best way to find out what you want to know is to check out www.tracyskenpo.com  He has a fairly detailed history of kenpo on his site as well as a short history of James Mitose.  Mr. Mitose is responsible for bringing kenpo from Japan to the U.S.  Happy hunting!  Theletch1


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## Blindside (Jan 22, 2003)

Hi Mon Mon,

Lets just say the history of kenpo is an ongoing debate, and that there is NO concensus.

Basically, everyone coming off Ed Parker can get back to his instructor, Professor Chow, then the debate takes off.  

Good luck and take everything with a grain of salt,

Lamont


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## kenpo3631 (Jan 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by theletch1 _
> *The best way to find out what you want to know is to check out www.tracyskenpo.com  He has a fairly detailed history of kenpo on his site as well as a short history of James Mitose.  Mr. Mitose is responsible for bringing kenpo from Japan to the U.S.  Happy hunting!  Theletch1 *



You may want to bring your pillow too. Tracy is very long winded and some of it seems a bit hokey, considering all the "secret" file stuff. What up with the Parker bashing stuff?... Just my opinion though


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## Samurai (Jan 23, 2003)

My understanding is the term "Kenpo" or "Kempo" is another translation of the Chinese term "chunfa" or loosely translated, FIST ARTS.  

Now kenpo  is not kung-fu, but the orgins are in the Chinese fighting arts.  

Jeremy Bays


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## theletch1 (Jan 23, 2003)

Ok, I didn't say the only way to find out what you wanted to know was from the Tracy site..... it is a good starting point though to point you in the right direction.  There are as many different ideas as to the specific history as there are students of the art.  It seems our history is just as maleable as our future.  I, for one am content with going back as far as professor Chow and then seeing just how many different theories I can find from there.  

"Make civilized the mind... Make savage the body"


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## jazkiljok (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Samurai _
> *My understanding is the term "Kenpo" or "Kempo" is another translation of the Chinese term "chunfa" or loosely translated, FIST ARTS.
> 
> Now kenpo  is not kung-fu, but the orgins are in the Chinese fighting arts.
> ...



yes, a term also used by the Okinawan masters who came to Japan to spread their arts.  It was commonly used in tandem as in Karate Kenpo, long before Mitose came along. The Okinawan's had less issues with referring back to the Chinese mother arts then the Japanese, so they kept on using it even when "karate" was changed to mean empty hands (dropping the chinese connected "t'ang" hand)

In fact when the the Japanese Karate Club in Hawaii invited the leading masters in Japan to the islands back in the 20s and 30s just before the war- ads for demo's called them masters of karate and kenpo. All  well before Mitose started his Self Defense Club.

So Mitose didn't bring Kenpo to the islands. 

But again as you note- Kenpo is like saying Chuanfa and it doesn't really tell you anything about the style or what is being taught.

Ed Parker put Kenpo on the map in the states (even worldwide) and his dominance and popularity there transformed Kenpo from a generic term to one more closely associated with what he was teaching in the arts.

peace.
 :asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Samurai _
> *My understanding is the term "Kenpo" or "Kempo" is another translation of the Chinese term "chunfa" or loosely translated, FIST ARTS.
> 
> Now kenpo  is not kung-fu, but the orgins are in the Chinese fighting arts.
> ...



KENPO is translated Fist Law, or law of the fist (just a minor point, although the understanding could be the same as chuanfa).

As for Kenpo being a martial arts style... American Kenpo is not really a style of martial art, but a system. Just some clarifications from a Kenpoists point of view.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear :asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *You may want to bring your pillow too. Tracy is very long winded and some of it seems a bit hokey, considering all the "secret" file stuff. What up with the Parker bashing stuff?... Just my opinion though *



I think that some of the things posted on Al Tracy's site is pretty far fetched, especially about Mitose and the lineage information presented there. I've always been told by all of the instructors I've had (Trejo being one of them) that Mitose isn't part of our lineage, oh well... No reason to beat that dead horse again... It's almost unrecognizable.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear

P.S. You back from Bosnia?


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## kenpo3631 (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I think that some of the things posted on Al Tracy's site is pretty far fetched, especially about Mitose and the lineage information presented there. I've always been told by all of the instructors I've had (Trejo being one of them) that Mitose isn't part of our lineage, oh well... No reason to beat that dead horse again... It's almost unrecognizable.
> 
> Sincerely,
> ...



Not yet...

This post came from Germany. I am at the staging point for the actual deployment. Typical Army....:rofl:  We get activated then wait three months to get in country.:asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *Not yet...
> 
> This post came from Germany. I am at the staging point for the actual deployment. Typical Army....:rofl:  We get activated then wait three months to get in country.:asian: *



I remember.

*HURRY UP, AND WAIT!* 

Good to see you posting.

Keep in touch,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:


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## Chronuss (Jan 24, 2003)

one of the best places to start for some history is The Journey by Tom Bleecker.  very good book with some histories and experiences of some of the high ranking Kenpo practioners of today, including Mr. C., who is on this board, Mr. Trejo, and Mr. Planas, even Elvis is included.  also, the Infinite Insights series has some Kenpo history throughout all five books.


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## bahenlaura (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I think that some of the things posted on Al Tracy's site is pretty far fetched, especially about Mitose and the lineage information presented there. I've always been told by all of the instructors I've had (Trejo being one of them) that Mitose isn't part of our lineage, oh well... No reason to beat that dead horse again... It's almost unrecognizable.
> 
> Sincerely,
> ...



 

i agree. 
you just have to go on the net read on. there are lots and lots of info. when you are finished use common sence and go from there.
don't believe verything you read.
don't believe me.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 25, 2003)

It's amazing how many good informations you can get from you, guys. :asian: 
Over here we only get a piece of the history and the rest you have to go search on the net, and as bahenlaura said, you can't believe all you read :shrug:


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## theletch1 (Jan 25, 2003)

I've heard it said that you should believe nothing you read and only half of what you see..... makes researching our history a bit tough doesn't it.  There are enough folks on this forum that you should be able to get just as confused as the rest of us and then come to your own conclusion.... until some one comes up with a time machine to find the "truth" any way. 

"make civilized the mind....make savage the body"


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## WilliamTLear (Jan 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by theletch1 _
> *I've heard it said that you should believe nothing you read and only half of what you see..... makes researching our history a bit tough doesn't it.  There are enough folks on this forum that you should be able to get just as confused as the rest of us and then come to your own conclusion.... until some one comes up with a time machine to find the "truth" any way.
> 
> "make civilized the mind....make savage the body" *



There is always someone out there that can tell you their version of the truth... Expereince is the best teacher.


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## Michael Billings (Jan 26, 2003)

Oss Billy.  The grasshopper learns from riding the wind.

-MB:asian:


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## bahenlaura (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Oss Billy.  The grasshopper learns from riding the wind.
> 
> -MB:asian: *



 
Ooosss!

However when the wind gets too violant. Grasshopper needs to have faith and land somewhere for shelter.

:asian:


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## Katie Simmons (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *You may want to bring your pillow too. Tracy is very long winded and some of it seems a bit hokey, considering all the "secret" file stuff. What up with the Parker bashing stuff?... Just my opinion though *



Parker and Tracy had a falling out back in the late seventies  (or therabouts). It was basically the start of all the bad blood between the American Kenpo people and the Tracy crew. It deeply hurt both Ed Parker and Al Tracy; neither of them ever got over it. All the bashing is just spite. They each sort of trained their respective followings against the other, and we all know how it went from there. Anyhow, we know for sure that Ed Parker taught both Al and Jim Tracy. To get the history further back, just contact Ted Sumner at www.sanjosekenpo.com. He's got documentation for most of it.


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## Chronuss (Jan 27, 2003)

Or...if you're feeling reeeaaaalllly brave, you could ask Mr. C. on this very board.  Mr. C. is a very knowledgable man whom I've the esteemed pleasure (or maybe he had) of beating my fat **** around.     usually, if you ask Mr. C., he'll usually get back to you.


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## kenpo3631 (Jan 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Oss Billy.  The grasshopper learns from riding the wind.
> 
> -MB:asian: *



And the Tracy's by riding the Golden Banana? :rofl:  

It's been a long day...


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## kenpo3631 (Jan 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Katie Simmons _
> *Parker and Tracy had a falling out back in the late seventies  (or therabouts). It was basically the start of all the bad blood between the American Kenpo people and the Tracy crew. It deeply hurt both Ed Parker and Al Tracy; neither of them ever got over it. All the bashing is just spite. They each sort of trained their respective followings against the other, and we all know how it went from there. Anyhow, we know for sure that Ed Parker taught both Al and Jim Tracy. To get the history further back, just contact Ted Sumner at www.sanjosekenpo.com. He's got documentation for most of it. *



And the Tracy's also stated in a _Black Belt_ mag article that a Parker black belt is the equivilent of a blue belt in the Tracy system....  I believe that was said *after* Mr. Parker's death too. Hmmmm, who's was bashing whom?


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 28, 2003)

And you're following their example? Let their words speak for themselves... Enough said.


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## Sigung86 (Jan 28, 2003)

Boy OH Boy!!!!  I can't wait to see where the Bash Tracy's vs Bash Parker goes this time.

One would think that by now... With all the expert testamony available in the Journey, the Tracy website, and individual, unbiased truths and speculations, that it would have all been put to rest ... Wonder why not?

Unfortunately we, each and everyone, are subjected to our own Belief Systems (BS) ... Most of us can not remember what we had for breakfast yesterday, much less, exactly the way words and deeds went down 10 - 15 - 20 years ago.  History and memory seem to have a way of benefiting the rememberer, regardless of PoliticoKenpo afiliation.

It is probably conceivable that neither the Tracy's nor Ed Parker were angels in all the interactions, coming ins and going outs.  There were/are some large egos in place, for right or wrong.  Is it possible that this is all subjective at best? 

I suspect that all the snide comments, second hand investigation, and speculation is not going to put Humpty-Dumpty back together again.



Just some speculations on our individual BS (Belief Systems)

Dan


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## jazkiljok (Jan 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Boy OH Boy!!!!  I can't wait to see where the Bash Tracy's vs Bash Parker goes this time.
> 
> One would think that by now... With all the expert testamony available in the Journey, the Tracy website, and individual, unbiased truths and speculations, that it would have all been put to rest ... Wonder why not?
> ...



the road to all misery in the arts has been money.  the business of the arts has more then soured enough relationships and distorted reality and created  "truths" for warring factions that simply exist to justify their anger and frustrations born of these deals gone wrong. these "truths" of course are all subject to change depending on the mood of the individual.

Yes, ego also plays a part-- everyone of these pioneers of the arts want (or wanted) what they see (saw) as their proper place in the sun. 

and look now at all the Elder, Senior, Successor, Stupendo Grandmasters popping up with their own NEW found facts and truths to justify their "rightful" position in the Kenpo community.

the bashing between kenpo groups is almost as much a tradition now as wearing gi's and saying the kenpo creed.

well that's what my BS says for the day.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 28, 2003)

But kenpo bashing is only funny if the other people is around to answer. 

And if you have a problem with an individual, you'd better sort it out with him than involve other people. IMHO.


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## bahenlaura (Jan 28, 2003)

I believe we can elevate our Art above other's by elevating our Skills, Knowledge and Warriorship above others.

Burt
:asian:


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## kenpo3631 (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *And you're following their example? Let their words speak for themselves... Enough said. *



I am not bashing...I am stating a *fact*. I have also seen and have possession of a seminar tape in which Al Tracy himself flat out states that Ed Parker was involved with drugs and was in fear of his and his family's life from threats of Asian gangs. Mr.Parker involved with drugs! *I don't think so* and why would he be running from asian street gangs for?:shrug: Hmmmm sounds far fetched to me, what do you think?


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## Sigung86 (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *I am not bashing...I am stating a fact. I have also seen and have possession of a seminar tape in which Al Tracy himself flat out states that Ed Parker was involved with drugs and was in fear of his and his family's life from threats of Asian gangs. Mr.Parker involved with drugs! I don't think so and why would he be running from asian street gangs for?:shrug: Hmmmm sounds far fetched to me, what do you think? *



I think you are sitting around with nothing better to do than to try and stir up a ration of crap.  

Bashing is bashing ... Rehashing is rehashing... whining is whining ... Nothing new ... No change ... Net Zero Gain ...

Jeez ... Just when you think it's safe to go back in the water .... 
 

Dan


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> * Hmmmm sounds far fetched to me, what do you think? *



That's his problem (Tracy's), not mine. And I won't be doing a mountain out of a grain of sand.


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## kenpo3631 (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *I think you are sitting around with nothing better to do than to try and stir up a ration of crap.
> 
> Bashing is bashing ... Rehashing is rehashing... whining is whining ... Nothing new ... No change ... Net Zero Gain ...
> ...



I heard what I heard and saw what I saw. It's not a ration of crap. I am not rehashing, bashing, or whining about anything. 

It takes a big man to bash a dead man 

The seminar I spoke of was well after Mr. Parkers death. I can't imaging how someone who owes his beginning in Kenpo to Ed Parker could make such bolstrous accusations, especially when the man being accused can't defend himself.


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## Sigung86 (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *I heard what I heard and saw what I saw. It's not a ration of crap. I am not rehashing, bashing, or whining about anything.
> 
> It takes a big man to bash a dead man
> ...



OK... Let's see here.  Mr. Parker has been dead how long? ...

The battle between Him and Al Tracy has been over how long? ...

You've had your tape of Al Tracy for *HOW LONG?* ...

Your point for raising issues that everyone who was involved *THEN* is aware of now, and continuing to rehash and defend yourself and your actions in a *Whiney* fashion would be *WHAT?*

This is not whiney rehashing *HOW*???

What is your desired outcome?  Get all of us to get together and go beat up Al Tracy?  Make all the Tracy Stylist get together and immediately surrender to the nearest EPAK school and throw ourselves on the mercy of the local Black Belt?  Promise to see the light and immediately put on white belts and learn the *One True Way?*

Seems like you ought to be out practicing your tactile fremitus, or hypodermoclysis, or something else that might be more practical and useful, than this banal effluvia that you are trying to pass off as intelligent and useful posting.

Get over thngs that you can not change ... No one outside of you seems to care anymore.  And perhaps me, because knowing who you are, I know that your are capable of much more and better things than this kind of drivel.

Dan


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## kenpo3631 (Feb 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *OK... Let's see here.  Mr. Parker has been dead how long? ...
> 
> The battle between Him and Al Tracy has been over how long? ...
> ...



I am not whining or bashing or trying to stir the pot. I am simply stating the *TRUTH* !

I could care less what happened between Parker and Tracy. It has no bearing on my life. I am just stating that in many facets of the Kenpo community there is still mistrust and bad blood. It is true. It happens everywhere where there is a split in ideals or whatever you may have.

I am not saying that Tracy practioners are bad nor would a propose that Parker practitioners are better than Tracy's. But if you want to run to the nearest EPAK Studio be my guest.

The whole jist of my post was to simply point out that things were said some time ago about a dead man who had no way to defend himself.  Also, if you read the history on the Tracy website some of it is really hokey. People should hear all sides before blindly believing what they read.


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## Sigung86 (Feb 1, 2003)

OK ... Lance... Now ... You are making the sound of a lone voice crying out in the wilderness... It sounds like the Tracy's did something to you that you didn't like much... And you are still carrying a grudge.

You've made us all aware of how evil the Tracy's are.  

Let it ride, and get on with things....  I won't post anymore, because you  really are beating a dead horse that very few people care about or find relevent to anything that is going on 
TODAY.

You have to make your own future in the Martial Arts, not Al Tracy, Ed Parker, Frank Trejo, Dennis Conatser, etc. etc. etc.

You may now have the last word about how evil the Tracy's are ... But when you run out of things to say about them, who is next?

Dan:asian:


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## kenpo3631 (Feb 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *OK ... Lance... Now ... You are making the sound of a lone voice crying out in the wilderness... It sounds like the Tracy's did something to you that you didn't like much... And you are still carrying a grudge.
> 
> You've made us all aware of how evil the Tracy's are.
> ...



I am sure I am not the only one who feels that way about what happened. Anyone who saw this tape would by now probably dismiss Tracy and drive on, but deep inside it would bother them as it did me.

The Tracy's never did a thing to me. I have no grudge with them. I just made a point that Al Tracy was out of line and that to the best of my knowledge slandered Ed Parker Sr.

 This is an opinion board and in my opinion that man (Tracy) is held in very low regards. 

This has nothing to do with what is going on today *YOU'RE RIGHT* ! The original post touted Tracy's website as informative (which it is) and I just gave _MY_ opinion about it. You are the one it seems to have heart burn with what I have to say about Al Tracy.  I don't mean to step on toes it just my opinion.

There won't be anyone else, because nobody else has said those things about Ed Parker Sr. :asian:


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