# The "Karate Chop" as a School Discipline Method.



## arnisador (Sep 26, 2005)

I don't know where to post this, but it _must_ be posted:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1578279,00.html



> [font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif] *Alan Travis, home affairs editor
> Monday    September 26, 2005
> The Guardian*
> 
> [/font] 	   	   [font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Staff in privately run child jails have been told they can use a painful "karate chop to the nose" technique to control troublesome teenagers as a result of an internal review of restraint methods after the death of a 15-year-old last year, the Guardian has learned.[/font]


 Certainly the staff must have options, but to hear it described is still somewhat disturbing. Sausages and babies, I suppose...


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## shesulsa (Sep 26, 2005)

Wow.  Just ... wow.


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## mj-hi-yah (Sep 26, 2005)

That was difficult to read.  There must be less physical ways to deal with teens.  I agree that the staff needs options, but I am concerned that some will use it as an excuse to abuse.


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## arnisador (Sep 26, 2005)

Yes, I don't know what to say. Almost anything that's effective will sound abusive when described in print...yet, striking the nose seems a bit harsh to me.


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## mj-hi-yah (Sep 26, 2005)

This reminds me of something.  We had a child come to the camp I directed.  She was from another country and had been in an orphanage all of her life.  A family here was considering adoption, and had her here on a trial basis to see if she could adjust to this new family.  Anyway she spit at people, and bit, scratched, pinched her care givers etc., it was so sad.  She spoke Russian and yelled at her counselors in angry tones.  I'm sure the language barrier was a source of frustration for her, but I've taught many children who have had English as a second language and I've never witnessed anything like this display of behavior before.  All I could think was that in this institution she came from she must have suffered a lot of abuse!  At what point does such a thing cross the line from protection of the staff to abuse of the children?


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## arnisador (Sep 27, 2005)

But, some of it is protection of children who may injure themselves (or other children) if their behaviour isn't interrupted.

I agree with you about your example, but there are so many possibilities!


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## Jonathan Randall (Sep 27, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> This reminds me of something. We had a child come to the camp I directed. She was from another country and had been in an orphanage all of her life. A family here was considering adoption, and had her here on a trial basis to see if she could adjust to this new family. Anyway she spit at people, and bit, scratched, pinched her care givers etc., it was so sad. She spoke Russian and yelled at her counselors in angry tones. I'm sure the language barrier was a source of frustration for her, but I've taught many children who have had English as a second language and I've never witnessed anything like this display of behavior before. All I could think was that in this institution she came from she must have suffered a lot of abuse! At what point does such a thing cross the line from protection of the staff to abuse of the children?


I know what you mean. In many East Bloc orphanages, particularly in Romania and parts of Russia, abuse is all but guaranteed. Some years ago, I came into contact with a young woman who, by the age of 16 had lived through more than I can imagine - and I came from an emotionally and physically abusive home myself.

It's a hard choice that many who have not dealt with self-destructive behavior cannot understand - discipline them quickly, but sharply, or allow them to destroy themselves. Now the "karate chop" seems like a very bad choice, in my book. I'm not opposed to some amount of physical restraint or discipline - in self-abusers it can save their lives - but this sounds incorrect. Still, the article could be out of context, so I reserve some judgement because there is no easy answer to an out of control, emotionally unbalanced yet physicallly formidable teenager.


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## MJS (Sep 27, 2005)

This is a sign that there needs to be better training methods for the staff.  Working joint manipulation/pain compliance would be a better choice IMO.  Giving people the OK to start hitting them could very possibly lead to serious cases of abuse.  I doubt that every LEO or CO out there are complete angels.

Mike


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## mj-hi-yah (Sep 27, 2005)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> there is no easy answer to an out of control, emotionally unbalanced yet physicallly formidable teenager.


Yes this scenario presents a dilemna for the care givers, I agree.  



> But, some of it is protection of children who may injure themselves (or other children) if their behaviour isn't interrupted.


  This is a real difficulty I agree.  I had a friend that worked with developmentally disabled teens.  Some of them were much larger/stronger than their care givers.  There was one young man who would bite people very hard and clench his teeth and not let go.  One day he bit the speech teacher on her breast.   They had a very difficult time getting him to release his bite.  Needless to say, it was such a painful experience for the teacher that she quit.  I'm sure it is not always easy to fill these types of positions, and finding quality workers becomes an issue as well.  I do understand that workers, the children themselves and other children need some protection. :asian:   It would be interesting to hear from someone who works with children described in the article, as I am sure there are many extenuating circumstances.


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## shesulsa (Sep 27, 2005)

My ex worked with teens in juvenile corrections and I remember that whenever they had an issue with a teen where the boy had to be restrained in some fashion he always felt sad for the boy and always analyzed very closely what happened and how they could do it better.  He was always particularly upset when they had to do tie-downs and always solemnly marveled at how others could do that and not feel a bit bad about it.

 He offered his services as a martial artist to help analyze safe control, compliance and restraint methods and was repeatedly turned down.  Interesting and sad that a more violent element of martial arts has been introduced here.


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## arnisador (Sep 27, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> This is a sign that there needs to be better training methods for the staff. Working joint manipulation/pain compliance would be a better choice IMO.


I thought the same. But that's a lot of training. These people need many other types of training too--a degree, First Aid, what have you. Is it realistic to hope that they could all be mde competent in this too? I don't know. Look at how much H2H that LEOs and the military get! It's not all that much, and LEOs arrest people all the time of course.

It's the usual thing of people needing many skills. We spend 14 or so years training a general surgeon, including college, but would people pay the price to have others be so throughly trained?

It's tough. I too would prefer to see restraints used. But a blow can get the attention of someone who is very wound up better than "twisting harder" does, sometimes. I'd likely use a lock, but I don't feel good saying that all should.

Yet...we're talking about hitting kids. Ugh.


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## TonyM. (Sep 27, 2005)

"Privately run child jails" is the part I have the most problems with.


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## mj-hi-yah (Sep 27, 2005)

TonyM. said:
			
		

> "Privately run child jails" is the part I have the most problems with.


Yes it reminds me of the movie _Holes._


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## Andrew Green (Sep 27, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> This is a sign that there needs to be better training methods for the staff. Working joint manipulation/pain compliance would be a better choice IMO. Giving people the OK to start hitting them could very possibly lead to serious cases of abuse. I doubt that every LEO or CO out there are complete angels.
> 
> Mike


 I disagree with that...  Joint manipulation is more dangerous then hitting.  All they got to do is try to rip themselves out and *snap*, they are in rehab.  And a broken nose will heal a lot faster then a broken wrist or arm.

 There are safer ways, and more effective ways, to restrain someone then relying on pain from manipulating joints.

 But training costs money and takes time.  And staff training is always one of the first things to get the money for cut.


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## John Lacy (Sep 27, 2005)

Can't think of one good thing this can bring. There must be a better way!


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## MJS (Sep 27, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I disagree with that...  Joint manipulation is more dangerous then hitting.  All they got to do is try to rip themselves out and *snap*, they are in rehab.  And a broken nose will heal a lot faster then a broken wrist or arm.
> 
> There are safer ways, and more effective ways, to restrain someone then relying on pain from manipulating joints.
> 
> But training costs money and takes time.  And staff training is always one of the first things to get the money for cut.



I agree that it can be dangerous.  IMO, I think I'd go with some other methods available before I'd resort to striking.  Of course, it would probably help if we knew what the rules/regulations are where this is taking place.

Mike


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## MJS (Sep 27, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I thought the same. But that's a lot of training. These people need many other types of training too--a degree, First Aid, what have you. Is it realistic to hope that they could all be mde competent in this too? I don't know. Look at how much H2H that LEOs and the military get! It's not all that much, and LEOs arrest people all the time of course.



I know, its certainly not as much training as they should be getting.  



> It's the usual thing of people needing many skills. We spend 14 or so years training a general surgeon, including college, but would people pay the price to have others be so throughly trained?



Funny thing about that is, how many times do we see medical mistakes happening.  Someone getting the wrong limb amputated, etc.  These are people going to school for years and mistakes still happen.



> It's tough. I too would prefer to see restraints used. But a blow can get the attention of someone who is very wound up better than "twisting harder" does, sometimes. I'd likely use a lock, but I don't feel good saying that all should.
> 
> Yet...we're talking about hitting kids. Ugh.



I agree.  We can sit here and try to play out what we'd do, but in reality when it comes down to the heat being on, I'm sure we'll all react different.

Mike


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## tradrockrat (Sep 27, 2005)

WHOA!!!



I worked two years in a Level five (maximum restrictive environment) locked psychatric facility for teens and I have to tell you there is NO WAY you should need to use either strikes OR joint locks on the child -- EVER -- PERIOD!!

There are well established tactics and guidleines for working witrh this population and they work.

Some of them include simple policies such as 

1. All take downs and restraints are to be carried out by MORE than one staff member - at no time may a staff member initiate a restraint by him / her self. -- EVER

2. When taking a patient to the ground, you must control the momentum as to gently place the patient on the ground face first with a firm grip on his / her forearm jusrt above the wrist, and another hand on the bicep / tricep as you use your inside leg to brace out the patients leg and lower them to the floor - this is actually quite easy on any patient but the largest ones.  It also places you in an excellent position to control the patients arms and legs.  After the take down, up to three more staff can engage and restrain the head and legs - gently!

3.  No restraint may last longer than 20 minutes from initiation to release - EVER.  By then, the patient should have either been de-escalated, or given an Intra Muscular sedative (a shot in the butt).  Either way, the patient should have been removed by gurney to a De-escalation room (padded walls).


I was often involved in more than one restraint a day at this job, and in two years not one patient was ever hurt by anyone but themselves.


(once, however, I did have to do a little "improv" with a mattress when a patient manged to make / aquire a shank and was threatening to use it.  I picked up a mattress from another room and rushed him with it, pinning him to the wall until the other stakk disarmed him.  Still, no one was hurt - including the patient.)


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## tradrockrat (Sep 27, 2005)

God.  I just re-read the article - those people are twenty years behind.  Hugs and wraparounds?  Seated Restraints?  No wonder the kid died - an adult was sitting on his chest!



Today's modern systems do not involve ANY trunk restraints what-so-ever!

Christ, all they have to do is pay one visit to the states.


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## CrankyDragon (Sep 27, 2005)

We are instructed in Handle With Care, the only authorized method of restraint is the PRT. No harm is to come of any juv, strikes or blows are NOT authorized and may result in termination or even charges filed.

http://handlewithcare.com/prt.htm

 BTW, this is only used when an individual has lost all self control (Fighting, throwing property, threatning staff or other kids, etc..), verbal calming, restrictions, sanctions, etc..   is always first used.  

 I cant beleive(Sp?) theres anyplace that allows any strikes to be used in the managment of juv behavior, its just not acceptable.

  Andrew


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## Makalakumu (Sep 27, 2005)

I am a teacher and so is my wife.  She worked at a level five facility for older children and I've worked in similar settings.  My current setting is at a school that teaches primarily adjudicated youth...convicted felons, sex offenders, and violent criminals...all under the age of 18.  

Striking a student is not permitted and is not even needed.  There has been a lot of good stuff said above about techniques that should be allowed, so I won't add, however, I do have something to say.

Striking a kid destroys any sort of rapport one has with these children.  And without that rapport helping them, much less teaching them, is impossible.  These kids are survivors and they have dealt with some **** that will make your blood curdle.  Striking them would immediately put a target on your chest.  "You hurt me - I hurt you."  

Restraints are different.  When we are done, both parties walk away in good health...although we are a bit tired.  When we held a kid, it was to protect them from themselves.  Our techniques were designed to immobilize, not cause pain because pain defeated the purpose of protection.  

I've had kids who have thanked me after being held down.  They realized that they were out of control and they appreciated the way we handled them until they could pull it together.  I don't think this would have happened if striking was allowed.


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## Jonathan Randall (Sep 27, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I am a teacher and so is my wife. She worked at a level five facility for older children and I've worked in similar settings. My current setting is at a school that teaches primarily adjudicated youth...convicted felons, sex offenders, and violent criminals...all under the age of 18.
> 
> Striking a student is not permitted and is not even needed. There has been a lot of good stuff said above about techniques that should be allowed, so I won't add, however, I do have something to say.
> 
> ...


You are so correct. I remember being struck with a wooden paddle in school during the 1970's for a trivial offense. After that, I avoided that particular staff member and had I ever been in trouble that needed adult help, whether of my own making or not - that person would have been the absolute last person on the planet I would have come to for advice or help.

Discipline is often necessary, but chopping a kid on the nose is a bad idea. I personally have nothing against applying a sound swat on the behind of a two year old who is pulling plugs out of electrical outlets or running into traffic (psychological well-being means nothing if the child's dead), but popping a fifteen year old in the nose is ill-advised and counterproductive.

Thanks for the input of your experience - I just wish you hadn't disabled Reputation so that I could give you some.


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## arnisador (Sep 27, 2005)

Thanks to those offering real-life experiences and information.

We should remember that those arrested by police have occasionally died from restraints--there was a spate of cases incolving a chokehold not long ago--so restraints of the martial arts sort aren't clearly safer than strikes.

The PRT is basically a double wing lock?


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## tradrockrat (Sep 28, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Striking a kid destroys any sort of rapport one has with these children. And without that rapport helping them, much less teaching them, is impossible. These kids are survivors and they have dealt with some **** that will make your blood curdle. Striking them would immediately put a target on your chest. "You hurt me - I hurt you."
> 
> Restraints are different. When we are done, both parties walk away in good health...although we are a bit tired. When we held a kid, it was to protect them from themselves. Our techniques were designed to immobilize, not cause pain because pain defeated the purpose of protection.
> 
> I've had kids who have thanked me after being held down. They realized that they were out of control and they appreciated the way we handled them until they could pull it together. I don't think this would have happened if striking was allowed.


 This is, of course, the most important part.  You're supposed to be HELPING the child.  Thanks for mentioning this and pointing it out.  I've had students (I was a teacher at the facility) thank me for helping them as well.  That's the whole point of being there.


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## BrandiJo (Sep 28, 2005)

I dont think there should ever be a cause to hurt a child in restraining him/her joint locks can be used i belive that a friend of my who works in a child jail type thing uses them, but it only causes discomfort when the child resists and they have to be very careful around wrists elbows knees and what not and htey are never to do it alone.


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## TonyM. (Sep 28, 2005)

I studied this at the Vermont State Hospital in '82. It's so effective I used it as a Correctional Officer as well. 
P.S. I didn't have to.
www.nappi-training.com


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## arnisador (Sep 28, 2005)

I couldn't get much from the site--what is NAPPI's approach to physical control, when needed?


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## TonyM. (Sep 28, 2005)

They have a system of non painfull holds such as the half basket and full basket that protect you as well as the patient. They are generally used with comforting rational talkdown. Avoid the S.O.L.V.E. system. It's too formulatic and I've seen people go balistic when they know their being preached to by a parrot.


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