# 6 year old first dan??? whiskey tango foxtrot!



## TSDTexan (May 7, 2019)

what in the world is going on?

because she can do 40 moves, and correctly answered a written test on human anatomy... she gets a 1st dan at 6 years old?

6-year-old becomes youngest schoolgirl in UK to be 1st dan karate black belt

my biggest issue... is that a dan needs to understand a lot more then 40 techniques and answer test questions on anatomy.

a dan should have a basic level of mastery. Which looking at the video.... she doesn't. Secondly, a dan in two years... is highly suspect.

Thirdly, there is a basic level of maturity that i believe a dan should have. being able to understand what elements lead to a fight, and how to avoid a fight in the first place. ( stuff like de-escalation, threat awareness, conflict resolution, verbal communication skills... which a 6 year old does not possess yet)

i have been pondering this specific case in England. The whole thing is a blight on traditional MA.


----------



## mograph (May 7, 2019)

Child + black belt = meaningless.

McDojo.


----------



## skribs (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> what in the world is going on?
> 
> because she can do 40 moves, and correctly answered a written test on human anatomy... she gets a 1st dan at 6 years old?
> 
> ...



This is pretty close to fraud-busting, which I don't think we're supposed to do here.

One thing I notice is that she's outside on the grass, wearing shoes.  That change in traction compared with practicing inside on a mat or on a hard floor can really change how you do some of the moves.  We also don't know if that was a clip of her demonstrating the best of her abilities, or just messing around.

Regardless, what a black belt is, is different from school to school.  For example, your third point of understanding what elements lead to a fight and how to avoid them, is not a requirement at my TKD school, and it wasn't a requirement at my old school.  I think it's a good skill to know, but it typically falls outside the scope of the curriculum.  A 1st Dan at my old TKD school took people longer to obtain than at my current school, and a 1st Dan in BJJ takes a lot longer than most other arts.  What a "dan" means is up to the organization that certifies it.

Now, do I think it's a McDojo?  Yes.  Based on what I've seen, does it appear she should be a black belt?  No.  But these are my opinions, based on very little fact.


----------



## jobo (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> what in the world is going on?
> 
> because she can do 40 moves, and correctly answered a written test on human anatomy... she gets a 1st dan at 6 years old?
> 
> ...


your just annoyed as you failed a minor belt and this young child has suprised your achievements,  cant you just be happy for her,


----------



## CB Jones (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> what in the world is going on?
> 
> because she can do 40 moves, and correctly answered a written test on human anatomy... she gets a 1st dan at 6 years old?
> 
> ...



I see and agree with your point.....but their school....they can rank them how they want I guess.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> what in the world is going on?
> 
> because she can do 40 moves, and correctly answered a written test on human anatomy... she gets a 1st dan at 6 years old?
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, there are millions of examples of people that have black belts not worth the cost of the cloth around their waist.   It is pointless to berate them or the schools they belong to.   It will drive you nuts if you let it.  

Cubic zirconia may fool some people that they diamonds but they are most certainly not diamonds.    They are cheaper and more abundant but I don't know anyone that prefers them to the real thing.


----------



## jobo (May 7, 2019)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Unfortunately, there are millions of examples of people that have black belts not worth the cost of the cloth around their waist.   It is pointless to berate them or the schools they belong to.   It will drive you nuts if you let it.
> 
> Cubic zirconia may fool some people that they diamonds but they are most certainly not diamonds.    They are cheaper and more abundant but I don't know anyone that prefers them to the real thing.


well no, I'd suspect that they would fool most people outside the jewellery  business, and cz is not at all abundant,  its manufactured.  diamonds  value is not as a result if its scarcity,  it's as a result of market manipulation and price fixing. lots of people prefer cz because of the numerous civil rights abuses in the diamond  mining industry, particularly blood and conflict diamonds, uts the ethical choice  if all you want is something shiny, if your never going to sell it, it's rather pointless spending on artificially high priced stones, not quite as good at cutting things though


----------



## TSDTexan (May 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> your just annoyed as you failed a minor belt and this young child has suprised your achievements,  cant you just be happy for her,



funny man.
in tsd karate i am a third dan. and this has 0 to do with me. at least they could waited until she was older to give her a dan.


----------



## jobo (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> funny man.
> in tsd karate i am a third dan. and this has 0 to do with me. at least they could waited until she was older to give her a dan.


why, she has dedicated a third of her life to ma, she is just as worthy of high rank as all the old fat men strutting about with a black belt on, that can no longer even come close to reaching the testing standard,

if your going to set an arbitrary level of bb or Dans then it has to apply to all,

I put forward the idea, that decrepitude should mean demotion, that made several ( presumably past there best) posters quite cross


----------



## Martial D (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> what in the world is going on?
> 
> because she can do 40 moves, and correctly answered a written test on human anatomy... she gets a 1st dan at 6 years old?
> 
> ...



Meh. Legend has it that a black belt used to mean something.

It still can, but not always. The thing is, most people  can be lazy, in the sense that they will take the shortest route to the goal, while many are expoitative, in that they will take advantage of folks for a profit.

When you consider these two facts through the lense of martial arts, you will see a lot of mcblackbelts as the result.


----------



## Jaeimseu (May 7, 2019)

My opinion has changed on this issue as I have matured. Putting a black belt on a child doesn’t affect me at all. If a student meets a school’s requirements for black belt, give them a black belt. Who cares? If it devalues the training you (general you) have put in, that’s on you (general you).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 7, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> My opinion has changed on this issue as I have matured. Putting a black belt on a child doesn’t affect me at all. If a student meets a school’s requirements for black belt, give them a black belt. Who cares? If it devalues the training you (general you) have put in, that’s on you (general you).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I used to get worked up about what I called “belt mills”. I also got quite proud of my own rank. I do less of both these days.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (May 7, 2019)

It depends if you have the view the children circulem is comparative to the adults one.    If you don't, all a black belt would denote is top of that particular level. 

Personally speaking i dont know if they should do that or not and just award a different belt or something for it.  

Actually has me wondering of what they used to do with children and such for the styles which have a quite ridged belt structure historically.  Given a lot of these are considered and endorsed as life pursuits and there was a generation and still is of people who did it from a child to death. 

I presume it might have been going over the basics until you could get the first belt, then going through them.  say 10-death.

Edit: apart from belts not being that important and being viewed differently historically.


----------



## wab25 (May 7, 2019)

I say, good for her!!! I hope she keeps training. She started something at 4 years old and stuck with it for two years, she found out the requirements for something she wanted and she went out and did them. I am impressed that a 6 year old has stuck with something for 2 years.

Now, would I go study at that school? No. The UK is a heck of a drive from Florida...

Honestly though, others have already mentioned: their school, their requirements. But think about it, what does my belt mean to you? My own personal rank in Danzan Ryu Jujitsu... what does that mean to you? Do I know the first thing about your art? Where would I start training in your art? I know many here try to be polite, but in reality, my rank in DZR means just as much to your art as her rank means to your art and to you. The converse is also true. Your rank means the same as hers does, to a different school or different art.

This is why I get irritated by folks pulling rank over each other. The color of your thingy compared to the color of my thingy means nothing. How many stripes you have and where you put them mean nothing. 

The only thing that matters is that you train. Not that you once trained... or that you could train... or that you will train... It matters that you train, now. As long as you get out on the floor, and train to the best of your ability, you are humble enough to learn and improve and you are kind enough to share what you have learned with others. I have yet to be on the floor with someone that I could not learn from, regardless of their colors or stripes or patches...

Good for her! I hope she continues to train.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I used to get worked up about what I called “belt mills”. I also got quite proud of my own rank. I do less of both these days.



there is a thing that has been around a while.. Jr. Blackbelt. I would rather agree with awarding a jr. bb than assigning the 1st dan designation.

the article acts as if she is the first 6 year old 1st dan bb in the UK. I would disagree with that equivalence of what she was given with the idea of what Yudansha means.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 7, 2019)

wab25 said:


> I say, good for her!!! I hope she keeps training. She started something at 4 years old and stuck with it for two years, she found out the requirements for something she wanted and she went out and did them. I am impressed that a 6 year old has stuck with something for 2 years.
> 
> Now, would I go study at that school? No. The UK is a heck of a drive from Florida...
> 
> ...



i am happy she is training. i hope she continues for a while... or perhaps the rest of her life.

i agree we should all learn from each other regardless of where others are at in the curriculum with regard to our own journey in the same curriculum.

i just have a problem with this. I have been around a while, and I understand what karate became when it first accepted the dan system in Japan.

it just seems like people are playing fast and loose with terms they really dont understand.

its almost an insult or an affront to the history and tradition of karate. and it cheapens something that should be honored and respected more than this.

but this is just my opinion.


----------



## Buka (May 7, 2019)

I know she's just a little kid, a baby, but I've been been around a lot of kids in Martial Arts. She might possibly have the worst technique I've ever seen.

I don't find it cute, I find it very sad.


----------



## Jaeimseu (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> i am happy she is training. i hope she continues for a while... or perhaps the rest of her life.
> 
> i agree we should all learn from each other regardless of where others are at in the curriculum with regard to our own journey in the same curriculum.
> 
> ...



I hear lots of people say that child black belts “cheapen” something, but what do you feel is really cheapened (outside of your own mind)? I don’t think anyone is equating the ability of a 6 year old black belt with that of an adult black belt. And I don’t think the majority of non-martial artists care about anyone’s black belt. 

Having said that, I’m personally not a fan of belt mills. I use a poom (junior black belt) for kids in my school. I will say that I have seen many kid black belts over the years that had far better technique than adults with the same amount of training. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DocWard (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> i am happy she is training. i hope she continues for a while... or perhaps the rest of her life.
> 
> i agree we should all learn from each other regardless of where others are at in the curriculum with regard to our own journey in the same curriculum.
> 
> ...



I have pondered this for a few since reading the original post, along with the responses. Most of the comments I've found thoughtful and with merit, even if I am unsure whether I agree with them.

Yes, I am happy she is training, and that she has committed the time to it she has. That is somewhat rare for a child her age, and it does make me wonder how much her parents pressed her to continue.

As for the cheapening of something that should be honored and respected, I am keenly aware of how that happens constantly, in numerous areas beyond the realm of martial arts. From my perspective, if the requirements met were those put forth at the beginning of training, and not modified to take account for her level of physical and mental maturity, then I will accept that she has achieved dan rank at that school. If those running the school are OK with it for their school and system, I will not judge.

Does this mean she should be recognized as holding dan rank elsewhere? I don't know. I personally would struggle accepting her lining up with black belts at a seminar or such, knowing 40 techniques learned over two years, when there are lesser belts with a much more in-depth knowledge and understanding in their chosen systems, and much more time in training.

I feel compelled to stress that when I say taking account of her maturity, I mean just that. I have no problems with modifying curricula for people with specific impediments, regardless of age. In my opinion, doing so can be meaningful and helpful in those cases.


----------



## Headhunter (May 7, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> I see and agree with your point.....but their school....they can rank them how they want I guess.


They can but I think it's very obvious to everyone if she's a legit one or not


----------



## Headhunter (May 7, 2019)

Buka said:


> I know she's just a little kid, a baby, but I've been been around a lot of kids in Martial Arts. She might possibly have the worst technique I've ever seen.
> 
> I don't find it cute, I find it very sad.


But hey I'm sure her mummy paid the instructor a nice amount of money for it


----------



## Headhunter (May 7, 2019)

This is why there should be no kid black belts no one under the age of 18 should be given a black belt. I've always believed it and always will. I've never seen any kid black belt who I genuinely believe deserves to be called a black belt. Plus being a black belt is more than just doing the moves


----------



## Headhunter (May 7, 2019)

wab25 said:


> I say, good for her!!! I hope she keeps training. She started something at 4 years old and stuck with it for two years, she found out the requirements for something she wanted and she went out and did them. I am impressed that a 6 year old has stuck with something for 2 years.
> 
> Now, would I go study at that school? No. The UK is a heck of a drive from Florida...
> 
> ...


Good for her but shame on the instructor


----------



## Headhunter (May 7, 2019)

mograph said:


> Child + black belt = meaningless.
> 
> McDojo.


Agreed. 

Side note. as soon as I saw you had a disagree I guessed immediately who it was lol


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 7, 2019)

Buka said:


> I know she's just a little kid, a baby, but I've been been around a lot of kids in Martial Arts. She might possibly have the worst technique I've ever seen.
> 
> I don't find it cute, I find it very sad.


Im pretty sure its a result of rushing through all the material by 6. If she had learned a few punches, a front kick and a side kick, they might actually look okay.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 7, 2019)

mograph said:


> Child + black belt = meaningless.
> 
> McDojo.


It depends on what you're considering a child. A 6 year old and 17 year old are two entirely different things


----------



## Tez3 (May 7, 2019)

I looked at the article and stopped reading when I found out where it was. It's in Tyneside, that answers everything but I'm not sure how to explain it other than it's a no man's land of despair, drugs, gangs and unemployment where what she's done is certainly more than amazing, elsewhere not so much. 

I can't agree that a 6 year old black belt is right but I can see why they need it, it's one very small light in a socially deprived area with nothing but  despair.




wab25 said:


> Now, would I go study at that school? No.



I'd go, if they can keep a club going in that place they are going to be good.


----------



## Tez3 (May 7, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> But hey I'm sure her mummy paid the instructor a nice amount of money for it



Not where that club is she won't. Mum will be going off to the shop in her nightclothes to cash her giro.


----------



## mograph (May 7, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> It depends on what you're considering a child. A 6 year old and 17 year old are two entirely different things


Sure -- let's go for prepubescent. Before adolescence.

As for meaningless, I mean inter-dojo, across the art as a whole. Within one dojo, it might have meaning, but across dojos, it has lost meaning. The problem is that average people still think that a black belt has meaning across dojos: that it denotes an _absolute_ level of skill, rather than one that is relative to the dojo, and wildly inconsistent. 

But to be fair, experienced martial artists (here. at least) understand that a black belt has no meaning without knowing which dojo granted the belt. The meaning is assigned when it is associated with the relevant belt-granting dojo. 
It's like a college degree, to a certain extent: the school matters.


----------



## drop bear (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> i am happy she is training. i hope she continues for a while... or perhaps the rest of her life.
> 
> i agree we should all learn from each other regardless of where others are at in the curriculum with regard to our own journey in the same curriculum.
> 
> ...



Many martial artists defend the standard of no standard. And so ultimately support this. If you want to demonstrate effective techniques or competent martial artists it really has to be against resistance.


----------



## drop bear (May 7, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> This is why there should be no kid black belts no one under the age of 18 should be given a black belt. I've always believed it and always will. I've never seen any kid black belt who I genuinely believe deserves to be called a black belt. Plus being a black belt is more than just doing the moves



I have seen champion fighters who were under 18.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 7, 2019)

Rat said:


> It depends if you have the view the children circulem is comparative to the adults one.    If you don't, all a black belt would denote is top of that particular level.
> 
> Personally speaking i dont know if they should do that or not and just award a different belt or something for it.
> 
> ...


Belts are a fairly new innovation, historically speaking.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (May 7, 2019)

Yeah i can still get behind giving them a belt or a rank to say they completed a child's circulem but then you might consider using a different ranking system to denote its a children's one.  



Headhunter said:


> This is why there should be no kid black belts no one under the age of 18 should be given a black belt. I've always believed it and always will. I've never seen any kid black belt who I genuinely believe deserves to be called a black belt. Plus being a black belt is more than just doing the moves



I wouldn't put it under 18, but i would definitely say you haven't been doing it long enough to get what a black belt denotes under 12.         But if you are particularly savvy in the way of your style, you could be deserving of it before 18, out of principle i wouldn't go earlier than 16 maybe late 15 pending case.     After all if you starter proper at 5, thats 10 years of actual training, even if a portion of that was limited.         As far as i know you could get a working fundamental/basics knowledge of your style around 16-20 pending what time you started if yous tarted in the younger bracket.  As far as i know for a black belt thats deemed mastery of the basics enough to come to perfect them and their  usage and change them to suit yourself.   I think anyway, or something like that.  If you kind of meet that criteria, you do when you do, someone else does when they do.  Pretty arbitrary classification TBF.      Not to say i think a 6 year old should get the same classification of a 20 year old who has been doing it since they were 5.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> there is a thing that has been around a while.. Jr. Blackbelt. I would rather agree with awarding a jr. bb than assigning the 1st dan designation.
> 
> the article acts as if she is the first 6 year old 1st dan bb in the UK. I would disagree with that equivalence of what she was given with the idea of what Yudansha means.


I don't have dan ranking in my curriculum, at all, because I don't see a lot of point in it. But others do. I'm not sure why that word matters more than the color of the belt. Both are meant to indicate something specific for that school.

As for youth ranks, I favor them, just because it helps the kids have perspective on what their splash of color means. In the NGAA, the youth ranks aren't even the same curriculum, so don't mean anything like what the adult ranks mean, and I favor using the white-banded belts to make it easy to see the difference...because the kids have to go backwards if you only look at the color (from youth yellow to blue to green, then to adult yellow...).

Personally, I wouldn't award small kids the same rank as adults, ever. I just don't think it can mean the same thing in both cases. But that's me, and some folks disagree. I can't figure any way my opinion matters more to the world than theirs.


----------



## skribs (May 7, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> I hear lots of people say that child black belts “cheapen” something, but what do you feel is really cheapened (outside of your own mind)? I don’t think anyone is equating the ability of a 6 year old black belt with that of an adult black belt. And I don’t think the majority of non-martial artists care about anyone’s black belt.
> 
> Having said that, I’m personally not a fan of belt mills. I use a poom (junior black belt) for kids in my school. I will say that I have seen many kid black belts over the years that had far better technique than adults with the same amount of training.
> 
> ...



I find the opposite to be true.  To the uninitiated, the black belt is the supreme master of the martial arts.  I've had a lot of new students (and especially their parents) think that you're a Master at black belt level.  I'm a 3rd Dan and I'm still a couple away from being a Master.

Some people think that the black belt means you are absolutely perfect and know everything about the art.  A lot of parents think once their kid gets their black belt that they're done.  Like an achievement medal, and onto the next activity.  Most martial artists know that it's just a stepping stone, a path in your journey.  That a black belt is merely an advanced student (and the level of that advancement is up to the Master or organization that promoted them).

Several years ago, before I started back at Taekwondo, I watched Ip Man, the scene where Donnie Yen takes on 10 black belts and just destroys them.  It's one of my favorite fight scenes in any movie, particularly because there's a part where he's actually fighting 4 guys at once (instead of just a bunch of 1-on-1 fights in rapid succession).  Now, I'm nowhere near as good as Donnie Yen or Ip Man, but I could see myself going against a group of black belts with the same level of skill and tactics they had, and at least having a chance of being victorious.  And not because I'm arrogant or I believe I'd win (there would be a very slim margin of error, especially if they actually worked well as a team and had a good strategy to corner me), but because I know the limitations of a 1st degree black belt and how to exploit them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 7, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> This is why there should be no kid black belts no one under the age of 18 should be given a black belt. I've always believed it and always will. I've never seen any kid black belt who I genuinely believe deserves to be called a black belt. Plus being a black belt is more than just doing the moves


I've seen some folks in their teens who were better martial artists than I was in my early 30's (when I got my BB). I won't award a BB before age 18 at present, but I also won't teach anyone under 13 at present, so it's a safe bet nobody's likely to get to BB before 20 or so.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (May 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Belts are a fairly new innovation, historically speaking.



Not something i have looked into that well, all i know is without a specific belt structure (which does the same thing just in a official manner) you would just group people up based on seniority and thus implied knowledge and ability and actual ability/knowledge.  Has its pros and cons i must say.  

I would go out on a limb and say karate and maybe kung fu started the trend of belts?     And i think modern karate is relatively knew around the 1890's-1950's?

By all means correct me if i am wrong, im iffy on my historical knowledge on the styles and their inner workings.


----------



## Danny T (May 7, 2019)

So when Kano began utilizing the Black Belt do you know what the criteria for it was?


----------



## skribs (May 7, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> I hear lots of people say that child black belts “cheapen” something, but what do you feel is really cheapened (outside of your own mind)? I don’t think anyone is equating the ability of a 6 year old black belt with that of an adult black belt. And I don’t think the majority of non-martial artists care about anyone’s black belt.
> 
> Having said that, I’m personally not a fan of belt mills. I use a poom (junior black belt) for kids in my school. I will say that I have seen many kid black belts over the years that had far better technique than adults with the same amount of training.
> 
> ...



Let's say you started taking the fictional Skribs Kwon Do twenty years ago.  It's the best martial art ever, in my completely unbiased opinion.  It took you 15 years to earn your black belt.  You were the third black belt ever in the art, after me (the founder) and my first student.  15 long years, in which you had to learn everything under the sun, including groundfighting, take-downs, seventeen different clinches, joint locks, joint breaks, pressure points, a hundred striking combinations, and a dozen forms.  Your black belt test had a fitness portion that would rival the NFL combine, three full days on techniques and concepts, and enough written essays on training, teaching, and self defense law to satisfy a triple major in bio-engineering, education, and criminal law.

Now, 20 years after you started, and 5 years after you go through all of this, I take a 5 year old student who has been training with me for 3 months, I give her a test that consists of 5 punches, 3 kicks, and breaking a piece of balsa wood, and she gets her black belt!

On the one hand, you still have all of the other stuff - the knowledge, the fitness, and the technique.  That's what you care about, that's what others will care about when they see your technique.

On the other hand, if Gerry is looking for a school to take his daughter to, and he sees  that you're a 1st degree black belt in Skribs Kwon Do, and then looks up a video on Skribs Kwon Do and sees a 5-year-old 1st degree who knows 8 techniques, he's going to wonder what you can teach her.

This is what the cheapening of the black belt means.  (And yes, the story is super-exaggerated to highlight my point).  It doesn't mean anything for _you_, until it does.  It doesn't affect you, until the reputation catches up to you.  Even worse, if this girl can get her black belt in 3 months, why did it take you 15 years?

Another way of looking at it is the opposite of power creep in TV and video games.  There's a show I love (and actually started watching it because someone in my TKD class recommended it) called Supernatural.  There are some monsters in the first few seasons that are incredibly difficult for the heroes to fight.  They may spend an entire episode on one of these monsters, and it's something that has them scared witless the entire episode.

In the later seasons, there may be a dozen of these monsters, which are supercharged by some magical beast, and they're just cannon fodder to be mowed through like lawn gnomes.  They're no longer scary, and there's no real impact.

It's kind of the same effect.  If a black belt is really difficult to earn, and has very stringent guidelines on how to earn it, a black belt is something that generates a healthy fear and admiration.  But if a black belt is basically a participation trophy, then the reaction is "meh".  And even if you had to go through those stringent guidelines, people see it through the lens of "meh" because of what they've seen others have to go through to get their belt.


----------



## Steve (May 7, 2019)

Okay.  Well, I think she’s cute as a button, and like others, I’m glad she’s training.  She seems to enjoy it, though at 6 her technique looks pretty much like I’d expect it to.  I hope she keeps training.  I notice that her school purports to be an MMA gym.  I hope that the school is an actual MMA gym where, at some point, if she keeps at it, she’ll learn to do real stuff. 

Regarding her rank, I don’t see a lot of difference between her and other black belts in other schools or systems.  If the belt isn’t tied to some objective standard for performance, it’s really just a warm fuzzy anyway.  Not too worried about it.

What I think is potentially alarming here is that no one seems to be calibrating the difference between what she believes to be true regarding her performance and her actual trained ability.  What I mean is, it seems that, at least at this point, she’s being fed a line of bull about being a “force to be reckoned with” that is completely out of sync with reality.  She could very well be less capable of defending herself now than if she had no training at all.  She needs, at some point, to be coached through developing the skill, which means more than punching the air and doing kata.  But at 6, I think there’s still time for that.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (May 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> There's a show I love (and actually started watching it because someone in my TKD class recommended it) called Supernatural.



Threads doomed for now, hes brought up the flaws in Supernatural, pack up its a goner.


----------



## Tez3 (May 7, 2019)

Rat said:


> Threads doomed for now, hes brought up the flaws in Supernatural, pack up its a goner.




I'll post spoilers for Avengers Endgame.


----------



## Steve (May 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> Let's say you started taking the fictional Skribs Kwon Do twenty years ago.  It's the best martial art ever, in my completely unbiased opinion.  It took you 15 years to earn your black belt.  You were the third black belt ever in the art, after me (the founder) and my first student.  15 long years, in which you had to learn everything under the sun, including groundfighting, take-downs, seventeen different clinches, joint locks, joint breaks, pressure points, a hundred striking combinations, and a dozen forms.  Your black belt test had a fitness portion that would rival the NFL combine, three full days on techniques and concepts, and enough written essays on training, teaching, and self defense law to satisfy a triple major in bio-engineering, education, and criminal law.
> 
> Now, 20 years after you started, and 5 years after you go through all of this, I take a 5 year old student who has been training with me for 3 months, I give her a test that consists of 5 punches, 3 kicks, and breaking a piece of balsa wood, and she gets her black belt!
> 
> ...


This post is such an interesting contrast to the considerable body of posts on this forum downplaying the significance of a black belt.  I think some of those outraged are also some of the ones who have posted statements like, “a first Dan is really just a beginner.”  Or, “a black belt only means you know the basics.”


----------



## Steve (May 7, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> I'll post spoilers for Avengers Endgame.


Not a spoiler, but endgame was a bad movie.


----------



## Steve (May 7, 2019)

Is this the same school.?  If so, the testing seems more for fun than to demonstrate applied skill.


----------



## Buka (May 7, 2019)

Steve said:


> This post is such an interesting contrast to the considerable body of posts on this forum downplaying the significance of a black belt.  I think some of those outraged are also some of the ones who have posted statements like, “a first Dan is really just a beginner.”  Or, “a black belt only means you know the basics.”



Let me ask you this, brother, so suspend all reality for a moment. What if - and yes I know the shortcomings of "what ifs", but what if BJJ suddenly gave out Black Belts in a couple of years. And the ability of those Black Belts was on physical par with that child shown?


----------



## Tez3 (May 7, 2019)

Steve said:


> Not a spoiler, but endgame was a bad movie.




If a film is entertaining then it's never a bad film.


----------



## Steve (May 7, 2019)

Buka said:


> Let me ask you this, brother, so suspend all reality for a moment. What if - and yes I know the shortcomings of "what ifs", but what if BJJ suddenly gave out Black Belts in a couple of years. And the ability of those Black Belts was on physical par with that child shown?


Those dudes would have a very hard time competing against the other black belts at the pan ams or mundials.   I like the way BJJ does it, with completely different belts for kids.   But the main point is BJJ is self calibrating.   Schools who sell belts, or on the other side, sand bag their students, gain a reputation.


----------



## Steve (May 7, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> If a film is entertaining then it's never a bad film.


Err.... okay.  I thought it was a real stinker.   Like Last Jedi bad.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 7, 2019)

Steve said:


> Err.... okay.  I thought it was a real stinker.   Like Last Jedi bad.


Yes, but you’re just objectively wrong. It’s okay. I still like you even though I now know not to pay any attention to your opinion of movies.


----------



## jobo (May 7, 2019)

Buka said:


> Let me ask you this, brother, so suspend all reality for a moment. What if - and yes I know the shortcomings of "what ifs", but what if BJJ suddenly gave out Black Belts in a couple of years. And the ability of those Black Belts was on physical par with that child shown?


there only going to be on par with her physically if they were also only 6, il say it again she is only 6, 6 year old dont play soccer like a 20yo or ride bikes like a tour rider , they generally haven't developed much in the way of ballance and co ordination yet, which is one of the reasons they fall over quite a lot


----------



## Jaeimseu (May 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> Let's say you started taking the fictional Skribs Kwon Do twenty years ago.  It's the best martial art ever, in my completely unbiased opinion.  It took you 15 years to earn your black belt.  You were the third black belt ever in the art, after me (the founder) and my first student.  15 long years, in which you had to learn everything under the sun, including groundfighting, take-downs, seventeen different clinches, joint locks, joint breaks, pressure points, a hundred striking combinations, and a dozen forms.  Your black belt test had a fitness portion that would rival the NFL combine, three full days on techniques and concepts, and enough written essays on training, teaching, and self defense law to satisfy a triple major in bio-engineering, education, and criminal law.
> 
> Now, 20 years after you started, and 5 years after you go through all of this, I take a 5 year old student who has been training with me for 3 months, I give her a test that consists of 5 punches, 3 kicks, and breaking a piece of balsa wood, and she gets her black belt!
> 
> ...



Here’s the deal. That girl’s school doesn’t think it’s a belt mill. The crappy black belts people talk about don’t think they’re crappy black belts. I’ve heard plenty of people who I think are awful black belts scream about how standards need to be higher. 

People like to think, “At my school...” and imagine that all the other schools are belt mills. Most people aren’t very good. This includes black belts in pretty much any art where competitive fighting is not part of ranking. 

My opinion remains that the concept of “black belt” is only cheapened in the eyes of people who don’t know any better. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 7, 2019)

Steve said:


> Not a spoiler, but endgame was a bad movie.


I didn't end up watching it last week...will hopefully get around to it soon so I can argue with you about that.


----------



## WaterGal (May 7, 2019)

Steve said:


> Err.... okay.  I thought it was a real stinker.   Like Last Jedi bad.



Last Jedi bad? So you mean it was good?


----------



## WaterGal (May 7, 2019)

Steve said:


> Is this the same school.?  If so, the testing seems more for fun than to demonstrate applied skill.



While I can't say I'm particularly impressed by the skill level demonstrated here.... I honestly can't get angry about kids not being great at martial arts. If they're having fun and getting some benefit out of it, that's something. It's unfortunate they're not getting better instruction, but I'm sure they're all doing their best.


----------



## Steve (May 7, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yes, but you’re just objectively wrong. It’s okay. I still like you even though I now know not to pay any attention to your opinion of movies.


Haha.  It’s not my fault Im the only person around here who is able to distinguish my desire for something to be exceptional from a rational evaluation of that thing.

It’s like the little girl in the OP.  She is not good at karate.  Her parents probably cannot see that.  they want her to be exceptional so bad, their desire clouds their judgment.  

In the very same way, endgame is just... really bad.  . Put it this way.  If endgame were one of the first MCU movies, there might not be 22 of them.


----------



## WaterGal (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> there is a thing that has been around a while.. Jr. Blackbelt. I would rather agree with awarding a jr. bb than assigning the 1st dan designation.
> 
> the article acts as if she is the first 6 year old 1st dan bb in the UK. I would disagree with that equivalence of what she was given with the idea of what Yudansha means.



It's possible that she _does _have a Jr Black Belt rank, but that her parents or the poorly paid local journalist who wrote the article didn't know that. Lots of news outlets like to write feel-good local human-interest puff pieces in the format of "local [insert career/hobby] is the first [insert demographic] to win [some honor]!" I don't think they exhaustively research that kind of article; the point is to make newspaper-buyers feel like something nice is going on in their town, and as long as it does that, that's the important thing.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 7, 2019)

Steve said:


> This post is such an interesting contrast to the considerable body of posts on this forum downplaying the significance of a black belt.  I think some of those outraged are also some of the ones who have posted statements like, “a first Dan is really just a beginner.”  Or, “a black belt only means you know the basics.”




her basics are seriously in need of help.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 7, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> It's possible that she _does _have a Jr Black Belt rank, but that her parents or the poorly paid local journalist who wrote the article didn't know that. Lots of news outlets like to write feel-good local human-interest puff pieces in the format of "local [insert career/hobby] is the first [insert demographic] to win [some honor]!" I don't think they exhaustively research that kind of article; the point is to make newspaper-buyers feel like something nice is going on in their town, and as long as it does that, that's the important thing.



well... scrolling through the clubs Facebook wall... there are quite a few very young kids being recognized as first dan black belt. none of the post use the term Jr. Blackbelt.


----------



## Steve (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> her basics are seriously in need of help.


maybe.  But I think she could take most other 6 year olds.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (May 7, 2019)

Steve said:


> maybe.  But I think she could take most other 6 year olds.



Ip man child edition much?       (and i didn't just have a imagination of that)


----------



## TSDTexan (May 7, 2019)

1st dan at 6.... 4th dan at 12????


----------



## TSDTexan (May 7, 2019)

Steve said:


> maybe.  But I think she could take most other 6 year olds.


hm.mmm... maybe.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 7, 2019)

Steve said:


> Haha.  It’s not my fault Im the only person around here who is able to distinguish my desire for something to be exceptional from a rational evaluation of that thing.
> 
> It’s like the little girl in the OP.  She is not good at karate.  Her parents probably cannot see that.  they want her to be exceptional so bad, their desire clouds their judgment.
> 
> In the very same way, endgame is just... really bad.  . Put it this way.  If endgame were one of the first MCU movies, there might not be 22 of them.


Okay. That is the most impressive thread refocus I've seen.


----------



## WaterGal (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> well... scrolling through the clubs Facebook wall... there are quite a few very young kids being recognized as first dan black belt. none of the post use the term Jr. Blackbelt.



That could be a PR type thing, figuring that most people outside the school don't know the difference. We just say "black belt" in our social media posts too, even for the poom rank kids (not 6-year olds, but we've got 9 and 10 year old poom rank kids). But their certificates from KKW say "1st Poom", and we tell the students and parents what that means.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 7, 2019)

Rat said:


> Not something i have looked into that well, all i know is without a specific belt structure (which does the same thing just in a official manner) you would just group people up based on seniority and thus implied knowledge and ability and actual ability/knowledge.  Has its pros and cons i must say.
> 
> I would go out on a limb and say karate and maybe kung fu started the trend of belts?     And i think modern karate is relatively knew around the 1890's-1950's?
> 
> By all means correct me if i am wrong, im iffy on my historical knowledge on the styles and their inner workings.


In many arts, prior to the belt system, there were just three levels: student, instructor (certificate of license), and something akin to heir-apparent (certificate of complete transmission).

EDIT: Belts were introduced by Jigoro Kano in Judo (based on a similar structure from scholastics, IIRC). Originally, it was just white and black.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 7, 2019)

Danny T said:


> So when Kano began utilizing the Black Belt do you know what the criteria for it was?


As I recall, it was something to indicate competence (rather than mastery) - to differentiate the "experienced" players from the relative beginners.


----------



## dvcochran (May 7, 2019)

mograph said:


> Child + black belt = meaningless.
> 
> McDojo.


If you had expanded and said 6 years old with only two years experience I would Agree with your first sentence. 
If you are implying the school/organization listed is a McDojo, it would appear true from the article.


----------



## dvcochran (May 7, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> I see and agree with your point.....but their school....they can rank them how they want I guess.


I suppose you can argue free will and all, but doesn't this concern you for the impression it leaves for MA in general? I can see so many non MA people reading this and saying "how cute".

How would we feel if colleges started awarding under-graduate degrees to 6 year old's? I disdain the mysticism that used to be waived in some MA's but if we as a MA society do not hold certain things to a higher standard where does the bar stop?
Just a very sad and I am guessing parent motivated article.


----------



## Bruce7 (May 7, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> My opinion has changed on this issue as I have matured. Putting a black belt on a child doesn’t affect me at all. If a student meets a school’s requirements for black belt, give them a black belt. Who cares? If it devalues the training you (general you) have put in, that’s on you (general you).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE
> ...


----------



## Bruce7 (May 7, 2019)

Their might be good reasons not to start MA at age 3 or 4.
Most of the great Korean martial artist started at age 10 or older.
Most great America martial artist started in the Army, Air Force, Navy, or Marines as young men.
I see no advantage in starting MA at age 3 or 4.
My granddaughter is an excellent gymnast at age 9.
If she wanted to train in MA, in one year, she would be better than the 6 year old black at age 10 in martial arts.
At a young age gymnast or dance teaches young people to control their bodies.
I believe very young child can not understand what MA are about.

I know for fact with only 2 years training at age 18, I was better than a 18 year old with 12 years of training at tiger rock.
I had developed my body and mind throw sports , so when I started at age 16 I could not get enough training.
I still did sports, but every minute I was not doing sports, I was practicing MA.
The 18 year 4th dan does nothing but stand around and when she shows her technique it is sub par.

6 year old black belts a terrible idea.


----------



## dvcochran (May 7, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> I hear lots of people say that child black belts “cheapen” something, but what do you feel is really cheapened (outside of your own mind)? I don’t think anyone is equating the ability of a 6 year old black belt with that of an adult black belt. And I don’t think the majority of non-martial artists care about anyone’s black belt.
> 
> Having said that, I’m personally not a fan of belt mills. I use a poom (junior black belt) for kids in my school. I will say that I have seen many kid black belts over the years that had far better technique than adults with the same amount of training.
> 
> ...





DocWard said:


> I have pondered this for a few since reading the original post, along with the responses. Most of the comments I've found thoughtful and with merit, even if I am unsure whether I agree with them.
> 
> Yes, I am happy she is training, and that she has committed the time to it she has. That is somewhat rare for a child her age, and it does make me wonder how much her parents pressed her to continue.
> 
> ...



Agree, but none of us consider, at least younger age, an impediment do we? There are elements of what I consider training at the BB level that preclude a 6 year old. 
This is one of the rare occasions I will support stars and stripes on a belt. If a school cannot find another vehicle to keep people and kids interested in class and have to resort to awards, AND that keeps them coming, all the better. 
Someone mention Poom belts. Where does it stop? Does she get her 2nd Dan at 8-9 years old? And so on? Non sensical.


----------



## CB Jones (May 7, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I suppose you can argue free will and all, but doesn't this concern you for the impression it leaves for MA in general? I can see so many non MA people reading this and saying "how cute".



I can definitely see your point but in the grand scheme of things this is nothing but a small blurp that most people will probably never see.


----------



## Bruce7 (May 7, 2019)

Steve said:


> Is this the same school.?  If so, the testing seems more for fun than to demonstrate applied skill.


That is so bad I don't what to say.


----------



## skribs (May 7, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> well... scrolling through the clubs Facebook wall... there are quite a few very young kids being recognized as first dan black belt. none of the post use the term Jr. Blackbelt.



KKW gives "poom" to people under 16 and "dan" to people over 16.

My Master gives a black belt and calls them "dan", but their certificate and ID say "poom".  He encourages them by saying it's not their age, but their knowledge that matters.


----------



## Bruce7 (May 7, 2019)

Steve said:


> maybe.  But I think she could take most other 6 year olds.


You have not seen my grandchildren at age 6.


----------



## dvcochran (May 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> KKW gives "poom" to people under 16 and "dan" to people over 16.
> 
> My Master gives a black belt and calls them "dan", but their certificate and ID say "poom".  He encourages them by saying it's not their age, but their knowledge that matters.


Does your Master give Poom BB's to 6 year old's?


----------



## dvcochran (May 7, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> You have not seen my grandchildren at age 6.


Steve, I am sure that was meant as funny.  But even if that were true why would it matter? They are 6 years old for goodness sake. Let them be kids.


----------



## CB Jones (May 7, 2019)

mograph said:


> Child + black belt = meaningless.
> 
> McDojo.



After watching the videos...let me clarify my disagreement.

I disagree with an assumotion of any school that gives black belts to youth are mcdojos.  I feel before someone labels a school they should have some knowledge or proof of poor instruction.

If you were referring just to that school as a mcdojo....ok I can kinda see it.


----------



## Steve (May 7, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I suppose you can argue free will and all, but doesn't this concern you for the impression it leaves for MA in general? I can see so many non MA people reading this and saying "how cute".
> 
> How would we feel if colleges started awarding under-graduate degrees to 6 year old's? I disdain the mysticism that used to be waived in some MA's but if we as a MA society do not hold certain things to a higher standard where does the bar stop?
> Just a very sad and I am guessing parent motivated article.


Not all college degrees are equal.  There are reasons why degrees from MIT, Cal Tech, or Harvard are so highly regarded, and why others are not.

If a college started giving degrees to 6 year olds, so what?  That college would be undermining the value of only their degree . not degrees at large .


----------



## Steve (May 7, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Steve, I am sure that was meant as funny.  But even if that were true why would it matter? They are 6 years old for goodness sake. Let them be kids.


first, it was hilarious.    

And there was also a point in there that you missed.  That point is that we need to remember the context.  You can't apply an adult standard to a child, even if the vocabulary is the same.  The accomplishment is relative.   

Lastly, you raise ab interesting point.   If the idea of kids fighting is so distasteful, we really shouldn't be teaching them to fight.   Do you teach kids?  Surely not.  They are, after all, just kids, for goodness sake.


----------



## skribs (May 7, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Does your Master give Poom BB's to 6 year old's?



I think the youngest we've had is 8.  It would be possible, however unlikely, to get one at 6.  Our classes start at 4*, and it is a minimum of 2.5 years to get black belt**.  So at 6 1/2, someone could technically have a black belt.  However, that 2.5 year minimum is just that - a minimum.  That's if you test every 2 months for the first 9 tests, and every 4 months for the next 3 tests, in order to get your black belt.  Most students at age 4-5 take 6-8 months per test for the first few tests, and 4-6 months per test afterward.  So while it's technically possible, I don't think it will happen.

_*Some kids start at 3-1/2.  So technically they could get a black belt at 6, but it would still be really hard for them to get it because they also take 6-8 months per test.

**There is one exception, someone who tested on an accelerated schedule.  But that person was at the dojang 20 hours per week, and also had 4 years experience prior.  It took me 23 months to get my black belt._


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I suppose you can argue free will and all, but doesn't this concern you for the impression it leaves for MA in general? I can see so many non MA people reading this and saying "how cute".
> 
> How would we feel if colleges started awarding under-graduate degrees to 6 year old's? I disdain the mysticism that used to be waived in some MA's but if we as a MA society do not hold certain things to a higher standard where does the bar stop?
> Just a very sad and I am guessing parent motivated article.


Here's my current view, more or less:

Kano originally used a black belt to indicate someone with experience. It's a visual cue, and can be used in concert with other visual cues, like that it's a child. A child with experience (using that original usage) would be a black belt. What counts as "with experience"? Well, that's pretty vague, so there's a range of places where that line could be drawn. I could make a reasonable argument for drawing that line where I currently award yellow belt (the first rank I award), or anywhere between there and where I would award black belt, or even beyond that point.

My current preference is for BB to indicate an advanced student (in my curriculum, someone with probably more than 7 years of consistent, focused training). That's different from how my primary instructor defines it. I think it's different from the BB my brother has in TKD - I think it took him maybe 4 years or so to get his, and that's probably with him not making all the classes (he works in theatre, so his schedule gets wonky). I don't see much consistency anywhere in MA, except within a given association (and sometimes an art - BJJ has pretty good consistency from what I've seen). In any range, there are going to be those at the fringe (and perhaps outliers). The wider the range, the more "off" the outliers seem. So, someone with a legitimate BB in Judo (where BB tends to be fairly consistent) who is at the very low end of their range seems "off" to someone at the opposite end of that range. Same in NGA within the NGAA. And then we get the huge range of "martial arts BB", and the number that seem "off" to some of us is even higher.

But to someone with a similar standard to the belt in question won't think it's that odd. They're more likely to wonder why the heck it should take 7-10 years to get a BB.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Their might be good reasons not to start MA at age 3 or 4.
> Most of the great Korean martial artist started at age 10 or older.
> Most great America martial artist started in the Army, Air Force, Navy, or Marines as young men.
> I see no advantage in starting MA at age 3 or 4.
> ...


My question would be this: why does a very young child need to understand what MA is all about? Why couldn't MA training for them teach young people to control their bodies? And why do we need to compare a 10-year-old to a 6-year-old?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2019)

Steve said:


> Not all college degrees are equal.  There are reasons why degrees from MIT, Cal Tech, or Harvard are so highly regarded, and why others are not.
> 
> If a college started giving degrees to 6 year olds, so what?  That college would be undermining the value of only their degree . not degrees at large .


And would lose their accreditation, which is a large part of how those with knowledge assess the value of a degree from a school they're not otherwise familiar with.


----------



## Danny T (May 8, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> As I recall, it was something to indicate competence (rather than mastery) - to differentiate the "experienced" players from the relative beginners.


Yeap.
The almighty Black Belt was awarded to indicate which students were competent in falls and being thrown.
Absolutely nothing related to mastery rather toward safety for training.


----------



## dvcochran (May 8, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> So, someone with a legitimate BB in Judo (where BB tends to be fairly consistent) who is at the very low end of their range seems "off" to someone at the opposite end of that range.



But isn't this the key component of what you are saying? What/where is the base minimum? I agree this is near impossible to exactly define since, among other things, individual ideas and opinions differ. But is there not some gross set of skills and requirements that, as a MA community, we all agree are required to hold a given level? Surely we agree there are some standard general requirements.


----------



## dvcochran (May 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> I think the youngest we've had is 8.  It would be possible, however unlikely, to get one at 6.  Our classes start at 4*, and it is a minimum of 2.5 years to get black belt**.  So at 6 1/2, someone could technically have a black belt.  However, that 2.5 year minimum is just that - a minimum.  That's if you test every 2 months for the first 9 tests, and every 4 months for the next 3 tests, in order to get your black belt.  Most students at age 4-5 take 6-8 months per test for the first few tests, and 4-6 months per test afterward.  So while it's technically possible, I don't think it will happen.
> 
> _*Some kids start at 3-1/2.  So technically they could get a black belt at 6, but it would still be really hard for them to get it because they also take 6-8 months per test.
> 
> **There is one exception, someone who tested on an accelerated schedule.  But that person was at the dojang 20 hours per week, and also had 4 years experience prior.  It took me 23 months to get my black belt._[/





Steve said:


> Not all college degrees are equal.  There are reasons why degrees from MIT, Cal Tech, or Harvard are so highly regarded, and why others are not.
> 
> If a college started giving degrees to 6 year olds, so what?  That college would be undermining the value of only their degree . not degrees at large .


So, to put the article on scale, it was a student from a disreputable, non accredited school? I do not know anything about the school or system. I just know that within the community of this forum who are informed and intelligent students of some form of martial art, it could be seen as such. People outside our area of knowledge may see it differently, resulting in a negative effect on the MA society as a whole. 
Of course, we cannot control what the masses think but, just like the elite schools mentioned, should we not strive to maintain high standards?
Are not some saying it is ok to be the slum level, non-accredited school?


----------



## dvcochran (May 8, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> And would lose their accreditation, which is a large part of how those with knowledge assess the value of a degree from a school they're not otherwise familiar with.


Agree. Accreditation for colleges, to me, is considered the minimum standards for a school. Should not the requirements to reach BB, or something else possibly, be the same for MA's?


----------



## jobo (May 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Agree. Accreditation for colleges, to me, is considered the minimum standards for a school. Should not the requirements to reach BB, or something else possibly, be the same for MA's?


when they inevitably  put me in charge of the world,  just after I've banned war and poverty and greed,il deal with the black belt issue.

all blackbelts must have the minimum standard of being international level gymnasts. that's the only level of fitness and control of your body that is appropriate  to high rank in ma. on top of that they must be able to walk uninjured over broken glass, pick up red hot potss with their forearms and either fight 10 big bouncers at the same time or go ten rounds with a national champion boxer at the same weight division. anything less than this is bringing ma in to disrepute.

I considered including catching flies in mid flight, catching rattle snakes in mid strike  and sleeping on a bed of nails, but decided they were to hard to test

where would you put the minimum standard .? and why ?


----------



## Steve (May 8, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> You have not seen my grandchildren at age 6.


I am picturing the triplets from Brave.


dvcochran said:


> Agree. Accreditation for colleges, to me, is considered the minimum standards for a school. Should not the requirements to reach BB, or something else possibly, be the same for MA's?


degrees are really only used to evaluate qualifications, generally to get you a job.  Once you have the job, the degree itself is just a ceremonial indicator and the real value of the degree is in your application of what you learned.  So, to be clear, there are two finctions of a degree:  the reputation of the institution, and your ability to apply skills you learned (I.e., the quality of the education)   

Don't we already have this in MA?   Do we need more, and would that even be possible?


----------



## skribs (May 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> So, to put the article on scale, it was a student from a disreputable, non accredited school? I do not know anything about the school or system. I just know that within the community of this forum who are informed and intelligent students of some form of martial art, it could be seen as such. People outside our area of knowledge may see it differently, resulting in a negative effect on the MA society as a whole.
> Of course, we cannot control what the masses think but, just like the elite schools mentioned, should we not strive to maintain high standards?
> Are not some saying it is ok to be the slum level, non-accredited school?



I don't see how what you said applies to what I said.  It's not even the same art, let alone the same organization.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> But isn't this the key component of what you are saying? What/where is the base minimum? I agree this is near impossible to exactly define since, among other things, individual ideas and opinions differ. But is there not some gross set of skills and requirements that, as a MA community, we all agree are required to hold a given level? Surely we agree there are some standard general requirements.


Apparently not, since the school in the OP is part of that MA community. 

Based on Danny’s post, Kano and I would disagree greatly on what BB means, if we each insisted on using the definition we started our curriculum with. Am I too strict, or was Kano too lenient? Neither, I think.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 8, 2019)

Steve said:


> If a college started giving degrees to 6 year olds, so what? That college would be undermining the value of only their degree . not degrees at large .


Unless it was a supergenius child prodigy of epic proportions.


----------



## Tez3 (May 8, 2019)

jobo said:


> where would you put the minimum standard .? and why ?




Learning to read, write and use grammar...………….


----------



## jobo (May 8, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> Learning to read, write and use grammar...………….


I can do all three,  but grammar is of course optional, as is speeling
which grammatical  rule are you following with multiple full stops...............................


----------



## Danny T (May 8, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Apparently not, since the school in the OP is part of that MA community.
> 
> Based on Danny’s post, Kano and I would disagree greatly on what BB means, if we each insisted on using the definition we started our curriculum with. Am I too strict, or was Kano too lenient? Neither, I think.


Black Belt is whatever the particular awarding authority deems it to be.
It was not until 1935 that other colored belts such as yellow, orange, green, blue and purple entered the ranking system. Mikonosuke Kawaishi is generally regarded as the originator of this practice when he started teaching Judo in Paris in 1935.
There is no equally accepted industry standard as to what a Black Belt rank requirement is.


----------



## Steve (May 8, 2019)

Regarding what the masses think, its


RTKDCMB said:


> Unless it was a supergenius child prodigy of epic proportions.


It could happen.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 8, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> In many arts, prior to the belt system, there were just three levels: student, instructor (certificate of license), and something akin to heir-apparent (certificate of complete transmission).
> 
> EDIT: Belts were introduced by Jigoro Kano in Judo (based on a similar structure from scholastics, IIRC). Originally, it was just white and black.



according to my research, Dr. J borrowed the black belt from the blackbelt/black dash/ribbon award given for armoured swimming combatives of jujitsu.
think samurai water polo

He also, later introduced a brown belt just prior to black in his belt system....

Gichin Funakoshi took that three belt system and asked his student body to accept the green belt between white and black. I dont think it was implemented during his lifetime. there is some difference of opinion about that specific thing.


----------



## Bruce7 (May 8, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> My question would be this: why does a very young child need to understand what MA is all about? Why couldn't MA training for them teach young people to control their bodies? And why do we need to compare a 10-year-old to a 6-year-old?


they both would be 10


----------



## CB Jones (May 8, 2019)

Funny story:

Years ago, the USKA Director was an 8th or 9th dan blackbelt.  Some members of the organization convinced him that as the director he should wear his red and white belt (before that he only wore just his black belt) at the tournaments.

At a tournament, he was called over to settle a disagreement in the rules...as he was leaving the ring he overheard a spectator ask another spectator *"why they call this dude over here....he isnt even a black belt."*

That was the last time he wore the red and white belt.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 8, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> according to my research, Dr. J borrowed the black belt from the blackbelt/black dash/ribbon award given for armoured swimming combatives of jujitsu.
> 
> He also, later introduced a brown belt just prior to black in his belt system....
> 
> Gichin Funakoshi took that three belt system and asked his student body to accept the green belt between white and black. I dont think it was implemented during his lifetime. there is some difference of opinion about that specific thing.


Now how does go fit into the kyu/dan rankings? Did they steal it from MA to did MA steal it from go?

For the record, go rankings mean the same thing across the board, and in different countries. Just like my former elo 1500 for chess in the us meant the same thing in new york as it did in florida or Germany.


----------



## skribs (May 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Now how does go fit into the kyu/dan rankings? Did they steal it from MA to did MA steal it from go?
> 
> For the record, go rankings mean the same thing across the board, and in different countries. Just like my former elo 1500 for chess in the us meant the same thing in new york as it did in florida or Germany.



I think there's a few issues here.  The first is that objective measures (i.e. you must have X knowledge to pass your rank test) is different than subjective measures (i.e. you need to be in the top 0.01% of a competition to be a Grand Master).  

The second is that your ranking is based on the competition.  I used to play World of Warcraft, and there were times of day when arenas were populated by a bunch of people who had no clue what they were doing, and others where the other players were all no-life try-hards (like myself) who would just destroy you.  So if you play at one time of day, you may expect to get to a rating of 1100, but at a different time of day a rating of 1600.


----------



## Bruce7 (May 8, 2019)

My teacher started MA at age 10 and became a black belt at 17, 7 years of study.
At age 41, 31 years of study became an International Master Instructor by the World Taekwondo Federation in 1972.
IMO So a 6 year old year old with 2 years of questionable study has black belt makes no sense


----------



## TSDTexan (May 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Now how does go fit into the kyu/dan rankings? Did they steal it from MA to did MA steal it from go?



Kano started the modern rank system when he awarded _shodan_ to two of his senior students (Shiro Saigo and Tsunejiro Tomita) in 1883. Even then, there was no external differentiation between _yudansha_ (black belt ranks) and _mudansha_ (those who hadn't yet attained black belt ranking).







Kano apparently began the custom of having his _yudansha_ wear black _obi_ (belts) in 1886.

there is. debate whether it was Go or Shogi that he borrowed the dan system from.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 8, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> according to my research, Dr. J borrowed the black belt from the blackbelt/black dash/ribbon award given for armoured swimming combatives of jujitsu.
> think samurai water polo
> 
> He also, later introduced a brown belt just prior to black in his belt system....
> ...



1st error: 
dash should have been sash.

2nd error:

 between white and black.... is an error. It should have read between white and brown.
thus the order would have been white, green, brown, black.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> I think there's a few issues here.  The first is that objective measures (i.e. you must have X knowledge to pass your rank test) is different than subjective measures (i.e. you need to be in the top 0.01% of a competition to be a Grand Master).
> 
> The second is that your ranking is based on the competition.  I used to play World of Warcraft, and there were times of day when arenas were populated by a bunch of people who had no clue what they were doing, and others where the other players were all no-life try-hards (like myself) who would just destroy you.  So if you play at one time of day, you may expect to get to a rating of 1100, but at a different time of day a rating of 1600.


But you can have a subjective measure combined with an objective measure (you must know XY and Z. After that, you must compete so well in competition, or prove capability in a subjective manner). ELO and competitive rankings can take care of that part of it.

When it came to chess I never experienced that. Going to competitions, everyone there was serious and the rankings were legitimate. I don't know how that holds for online chess sites though, so it may be an online issue where people are playing/competing 24/7. I do know that from my experience, going to actual competitions/tournaments can keep rankings relatively steady. And it's a better measure than not measuring it at all.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> But you can have a subjective measure combined with an objective measure (you must know XY and Z. After that, you must compete so well in competition, or prove capability in a subjective manner). ELO and competitive rankings can take care of that part of it.
> 
> When it came to chess I never experienced that. Going to competitions, everyone there was serious and the rankings were legitimate. I don't know how that holds for online chess sites though, so it may be an online issue where people are playing/competing 24/7. I do know that from my experience, going to actual competitions/tournaments can keep rankings relatively steady. And it's a better measure than not measuring it at all.


This is all assuming you feel that rankings should mean something about actual ability in your art. If not, then it doesn't matter.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 8, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> Kano started the modern rank system when he awarded _shodan_ to two of his senior students (Shiro Saigo and Tsunejiro Tomita) in 1883. Even then, there was no external differentiation between _yudansha_ (black belt ranks) and _mudansha_ (those who hadn't yet attained black belt ranking).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't even realize that shogi had a dan system as well. Cool to know


----------



## skribs (May 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> But you can have a subjective measure combined with an objective measure (you must know XY and Z. After that, you must compete so well in competition, or prove capability in a subjective manner). ELO and competitive rankings can take care of that part of it.
> 
> When it came to chess I never experienced that. Going to competitions, everyone there was serious and the rankings were legitimate. I don't know how that holds for online chess sites though, so it may be an online issue where people are playing/competing 24/7. I do know that from my experience, going to actual competitions/tournaments can keep rankings relatively steady. And it's a better measure than not measuring it at all.



What I meant by my first point is that most dan ranks are not based on competition, but on meeting requirements in course material.

As to my second point - different people are competing in Europe, than America, than China.  So if on a scale of 1-10, the average American competitor is a 6, European competitor is a 4, and Chinese competitor is an 8, that will skew the ELO rankings.


----------



## AndreaLola (May 8, 2019)

I hope the link works.  

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## JR 137 (May 8, 2019)

The version of Kano’s black belts I’ve read:

Kano brought his students to train at another school. That school was run by one of Kano’s senior most students. During the course of training, the dojo owner asked Kano which were his top students so they can partner up/work with his top students.

Kano improvised and gave those students a black strip of fabric to wear as a belt over their regular belt to identify them easier in the sea of students. Kinda like giving a soccer goalie or a football quarterback a different colored jersey to easily identify them.

Very soon afterwards, he came up with the mudansha (no rank)/yudansha (ranked) system. I’m not sure if those students he gave those improvised black belts to were the first official black belts, or if he officially gave dan rank to the students mentioned elsewhere here first, then gave them dan ranking afterwards. I’d imagine he’d give his senior-most guys who were teaching/coaching official dan ranking first. 

I think he had 3 ranks after the first official black belts - white, brown, and black. 

The gentleman mentioned above who was teaching in Paris introduced the ranks between white and brown, and Kano liked it so he implemented it across all of Judo. 

I can’t remember where I read that story exactly. It was a well respected Judo source though.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 8, 2019)

AndreaLola said:


> I hope the link works.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk




now... this one has the hallmarks of Shotokan/JKA dan level kata. If the rest of the kyu forms and the forms for shodan were this good with Kime, and attention to timing, and precision in technique.... even i would be forced to grant a shodan to this person.

you dont get that good without logging the many many hours that it takes. I suspect thos girls parents are high dan who make the kid practice 3 to 4 hours a day.

my my my.... is this the next Rika Usami????


----------



## CB Jones (May 8, 2019)

AndreaLola said:


> I hope the link works.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



But can she take a punch...


----------



## TSDTexan (May 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> But you can have a subjective measure combined with an objective measure (you must know XY and Z. After that, you must compete so well in competition, or prove capability in a subjective manner). ELO and competitive rankings can take care of that part of it.
> 
> When it came to chess I never experienced that. Going to competitions, everyone there was serious and the rankings were legitimate. I don't know how that holds for online chess sites though, so it may be an online issue where people are playing/competing 24/7. I do know that from my experience, going to actual competitions/tournaments can keep rankings relatively steady. And it's a better measure than not measuring it at all.




What is remarkable is Dr. Kano had the early Kodokan rules allowing for the earning of dan by performing 3 techniques that scored Ippon in a single tournament.

This was how the bulk of the early Kodokan earned dan. testing for dan was uncommon


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2019)

AndreaLola said:


> I hope the link works.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Her forms are definitely better than mine.


----------



## JR 137 (May 8, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> What is remarkable is Dr. Kano had the early Kodokan rules allowing for the earning of dan by performing 3 techniques that scored Ippon in a single tournament.
> 
> This was how the bulk of the early Kodokan earned dan. testing for dan was uncommon


I don’t know what Kano’s rules for this were. I know today they’re pretty stringent. Something like beating several people higher ranked than you in a tournament in specific competitions. Stuff like Pan-Am games, Olympic qualifiers, etc., ie not local $hit show tournaments held to promote people who don’t deserve it. 

And I think you can go to the Kodokan and test in a similar manner. 

The rules for it are somewhere. I’ll look but can’t promise anything.


----------



## dvcochran (May 8, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Apparently not, since the school in the OP is part of that MA community.
> 
> Based on Danny’s post, Kano and I would disagree greatly on what BB means, if we each insisted on using the definition we started our curriculum with. Am I too strict, or was Kano too lenient? Neither, I think.


Point taken, but do you go around aligning yourself with pariah? I seriously doubt it. If you have to put a dress on it then I would consider the article a wolf in sheep's clothing.


----------



## Steve (May 8, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Her forms are definitely better than mine.


Yeah.  She’s on par with some of the xma kids I’ve seen.





This guy is also pretty good.


----------



## dvcochran (May 8, 2019)

Steve said:


> I am picturing the triplets from Brave.
> degrees are really only used to evaluate qualifications, generally to get you a job.  Once you have the job, the degree itself is just a ceremonial indicator and the real value of the degree is in your application of what you learned.  So, to be clear, there are two finctions of a degree:  the reputation of the institution, and your ability to apply skills you learned (I.e., the quality of the education)
> 
> Don't we already have this in MA?  Do we need more, and would that even be possible?


I agree they are not synonymous. Holding a degree in X does not mean you know or can do X. That is a constant in the engineering fields I am involved in anyway. But there is a considerable amount of groundwork and fundamentals learned at college. The big difference is for many jobs a person will not even be considered without a degree. Unless they have 10-15 years experience in a specific field.
The value of higher education has become white washed since society and the colleges sold most people on the lie that a high school graduate must go to college to ever get ahead. Sadly, most kids today end up with a huge debt and little to show for it. The kids who figured it out while still in high school and were truly ready for college still get a great deal of value from college. Like it or not, it is a prerequisite for most mid to upper level jobs. Those who succeed with out a degree either worked their way up from the bottom, had help along the way, or are simply exceptional. That said, I am a huge fan of trade and vocational school learning. We use a balance of both. Our engineers are all degreed. Our techs are junior college or trade school graduates. College or trade school completion shows a level of commitment I look for in people.  
The 2nd best programmer I have ever seen was self taught with a 2 year degree. But he is definitely in the exception category. 
So that I understand, how do we already have this in MA?


----------



## dvcochran (May 8, 2019)

jobo said:


> when they inevitably  put me in charge of the world,  just after I've banned war and poverty and greed,il deal with the black belt issue.
> 
> all blackbelts must have the minimum standard of being international level gymnasts. that's the only level of fitness and control of your body that is appropriate  to high rank in ma. on top of that they must be able to walk uninjured over broken glass, pick up red hot potss with their forearms and either fight 10 big bouncers at the same time or go ten rounds with a national champion boxer at the same weight division. anything less than this is bringing ma in to disrepute.
> 
> ...


It is a very good question that I do not have an answer for. But I feel there is a minimum standard. This would be a great exercise for someone who is up to the task of weighting different aspects that are common to the majority of MA's. 
The why is to maintain value in MA's and not letting it wash away into to obscurity.


----------



## dvcochran (May 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Now how does go fit into the kyu/dan rankings? Did they steal it from MA to did MA steal it from go?
> 
> For the record, go rankings mean the same thing across the board, and in different countries. Just like my former elo 1500 for chess in the us meant the same thing in new york as it did in florida or Germany.


What?


----------



## dvcochran (May 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> I think there's a few issues here.  The first is that objective measures (i.e. you must have X knowledge to pass your rank test) is different than subjective measures (i.e. you need to be in the top 0.01% of a competition to be a Grand Master).
> 
> The second is that your ranking is based on the competition.  I used to play World of Warcraft, and there were times of day when arenas were populated by a bunch of people who had no clue what they were doing, and others where the other players were all no-life try-hards (like myself) who would just destroy you.  So if you play at one time of day, you may expect to get to a rating of 1100, but at a different time of day a rating of 1600.


Both examples are measurable so they are not subjective. But I get what you are saying.


----------



## dvcochran (May 8, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> now... this one has the hallmarks of Shotokan/JKA dan level kata. If the rest of the kyu forms and the forms for shodan were this good with Kime, and attention to timing, and precision in technique.... even i would be forced to grant a shodan to this person.
> 
> you dont get that good without logging the many many hours that it takes. I suspect thos girls parents are high dan who make the kid practice 3 to 4 hours a day.
> 
> my my my.... is this the next Rika Usami????


I recognize that form as a version of kong sang koon.  What is it called in Shotokan?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> What?


Is that question about go, or chess' elo ratings?


----------



## Steve (May 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I agree they are not synonymous. Holding a degree in X does not mean you know or can do X. That is a constant in the engineering fields I am involved in anyway. But there is a considerable amount of groundwork and fundamentals learned at college. The big difference is for many jobs a person will not even be considered without a degree. Unless they have 10-15 years experience in a specific field.
> The value of higher education has become white washed since society and the colleges sold most people on the lie that a high school graduate must go to college to ever get ahead. Sadly, most kids today end up with a huge debt and little to show for it. The kids who figured it out while still in high school and were truly ready for college still get a great deal of value from college. Like it or not, it is a prerequisite for most mid to upper level jobs. Those who succeed with out a degree either worked their way up from the bottom, had help along the way, or are simply exceptional. That said, I am a huge fan of trade and vocational school learning. We use a balance of both. Our engineers are all degreed. Our techs are junior college or trade school graduates. College or trade school completion shows a level of commitment I look for in people.
> The 2nd best programmer I have ever seen was self taught with a 2 year degree. But he is definitely in the exception category.
> So that I understand, how do we already have this in MA?


I think you have some internally inconsistent views on the value of college.  But For what it’s worth, I, too, am a fan of practical degrees and certificates from trade programs.  I’m also a big fan of apprenticeships. 

I was saying, styles have reputations, schools have reputations, and where belts have a practical, objective purpose, they remain meaningful (e.g., competition).  Same as degrees.  You can’t be a doctor without a medical degree.   Can’t be a pharmacologist without a degree.  Architects, engineers, etc all require degrees.  And where the degrees are not intrinsically tied to a practical education, they can be exploited at for profit schools, where kids tend to go into a lot of debt.

So what more could we do in MA, and what good do you think will come of it?


----------



## Steve (May 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Is that question about go, or chess' elo ratings?


You keep bringing up ELO.   you’re bringing me down man.   Don’t bring me down.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I recognize that form as a version of kong sang koon.  What is it called in Shotokan?



kusanku (dai)
Here is Rika Usami doing it.






There are two Kusanku kata.

Kusanku Sho
and
Kusanku Dai

And the older... earlier version of Kusanku/Kong Sang Koon... found its way to Korea from Okinawa... through Japan.  Several versions of Kong Sang Koon made it to Korea, one was the Shotokan version, and then there was the Shudokan version, and lastly the Shito ryu version. I have seen Koreans perform these versions (with changes that time brings)


----------



## skribs (May 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Both examples are measurable so they are not subjective. But I get what you are saying.



What I mean is that in scenario 1, the way in which you obtain a rank is based on a static goal, whereas in scenario 2 it's a dynamic goal.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> It is a very good question that I do not have an answer for. But I feel there is a minimum standard. This would be a great exercise for someone who is up to the task of weighting different aspects that are common to the majority of MA's.
> The why is to maintain value in MA's and not letting it wash away into to obscurity.


One problem with trying to create a minimum standard across all MA is that there are too many approaches, and too many different priorities.

Many arts have no forms, so we can't use anything about forms as a common standard.
Some places aren't focused on anything but competition, with no interest in effectiveness outside those competitions. And those competitions vary widely (think MMA, compared to Judo, compared to Kendo, compared to fencing, compared to Olympic TKD), so there's no common standard there.
Some places are practicing for reasons other than actual fight prep, so effectiveness for fighting isn't a common standard (unless we use a definition of MA that excludes these).
Some systems don't have a set of delineated, standard techniques, and those that do have widely varying numbers (and ways of identifying what is a "different technique" when counting) so we can't even say X number of techniques.
Then we have the issue of difference of opinion of what the minimum should be.
I'm not sure where we'd find a common ground that's not highly subjective.


----------



## dvcochran (May 9, 2019)

Steve said:


> I think you have some internally inconsistent views on the value of college.  But For what it’s worth, I, too, am a fan of practical degrees and certificates from trade programs.  I’m also a big fan of apprenticeships.
> 
> I was saying, styles have reputations, schools have reputations, and where belts have a practical, objective purpose, they remain meaningful (e.g., competition).  Same as degrees.  You can’t be a doctor without a medical degree.  Can’t be a pharmacologist without a degree.  Architects, engineers, etc all require degrees.  And where the degrees are not intrinsically tied to a practical education, they can be exploited at for profit schools, where kids tend to go into a lot of debt.
> 
> So what more could we do in MA, and what good do you think will come of it?



Who is being inconsistent? A person can find gainful employment and use the titles you mention, even in the U.S without a degree. Their liability would be considerably greater since they would not have documented and certified education and training to support that they are qualified to do the work. As you say, this is an area where reputation carries weight. There are still  "doctors" in the eastern mountains of TN whose only training is the generations of education handed down to them from their family. Would I use one if I were in the mountains and fell and injured myself or fell sick? Yes. Would I follow up with other resources? Most likely. 

I have never had a fully non-degreed engineer work for me but I have worked with quite a few. Their title was awarded by the company they worked for and most were more than qualified. The main differences you see in this scenario is that their field of knowledge it very specific, limited to the needs of their company. Get them outside their specific knowledge and they can have trouble talking in generalities. This is an area where a good college education provides great value. 
At the end of the day, there are not many people who are highly successful with only one of the two components (college only or OTJ training). They would fall in my exception category.


----------



## dvcochran (May 9, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Is that question about go, or chess' elo ratings?


Yea, that is a language I do not understand.


----------



## dvcochran (May 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> One problem with trying to create a minimum standard across all MA is that there are too many approaches, and too many different priorities.
> 
> Many arts have no forms, so we can't use anything about forms as a common standard.
> Some places aren't focused on anything but competition, with no interest in effectiveness outside those competitions. And those competitions vary widely (think MMA, compared to Judo, compared to Kendo, compared to fencing, compared to Olympic TKD), so there's no common standard there.
> ...



I am spit balling. 
Your second bullet would fall into martial sport so could be factored out. There are tome styles like TKD that have both. 
Similar styles could find enough common ground to be grouped together like fields in upper education (engineering, arts, teaching, etc...)?
Delineation of technique could be tough but should be a qualifier. Just like most colleges require a specific subject (humanities for example)be mastered before attaining a degree. There is variability in this mastery from school to school but it implies proficiency. 
Not many people actively practicing a MA are doing so as a form of income. That is a big underlying factor. But I strongly feel there can and should be universal qualifiers to hold certain levels. There are dozens of different Doctorate degrees (like different styles). I usually hold someone in a different regard when I see PhD after their name. Until they give me a reason not to.


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am spit balling.
> Your second bullet would fall into martial sport so could be factored out. There are tome styles like TKD that have both.
> Similar styles could find enough common ground to be grouped together like fields in upper education (engineering, arts, teaching, etc...)?
> Delineation of technique could be tough but should be a qualifier. Just like most colleges require a specific subject (humanities for example)be mastered before attaining a degree. There is variability in this mastery from school to school but it implies proficiency.
> Not many people actively practicing a MA are doing so as a form of income. That is a big underlying factor. But I strongly feel there can and should be universal qualifiers to hold certain levels. There are dozens of different Doctorate degrees (like different styles). I usually hold someone in a different regard when I see PhD after their name. Until they give me a reason not to.


it would seem the first 5hing to do, would be to pick a minimum level of " fitness " so strengh, mobility reactions, endurance etc, that's very easy to do and very easy to measure.  then at least you have a level playing field to assess the various skill levels against.

just as you would have a minimum IQ level to even be considered for a phd, they dont wait till the end of the course to decided your to stupid


----------



## mograph (May 9, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> After watching the videos...let me clarify my disagreement.
> 
> I disagree with an assumption of any school that gives black belts to youth are mcdojos.  I feel before someone labels a school they should have some knowledge or proof of poor instruction.
> 
> If you were referring just to that school as a mcdojo....ok I can kinda see it.


Fair enough. Yeah, just this school.


----------



## wab25 (May 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> It is a very good question that I do not have an answer for. But I feel there is a minimum standard. This would be a great exercise for someone who is up to the task of weighting different aspects that are common to the majority of MA's.
> The why is to maintain value in MA's and not letting it wash away into to obscurity.


Ok, I will set the minimum standard for black belts, that all arts must follow. The requirements are as follows:


Fitness - run a mile in under 7 minutes, 50 sit ups in 1 minute, 10 pull ups and can continuously jump rope for 3 minutes.
Demonstrate all the Heian Katas
Demonstrate 20 Bunkai found in the Heian Katas
This should be good. Unless you practice something other than Shotokan Karate. The Judo, Jujitsu, BJJ guys are going to be really upset that they have to learn these silly kata. But I guess we should have separate standards for different groups of arts... one for striking arts and one for grappling arts. Ok, use the above for striking arts... too bad if you study TKD... in addition to those Taegeuk forms, now you have to also learn the Heians, because you will be graded only on the Heians. Now for grappling arts:


Fitness - run a mile in under 7 minutes, 50 sit ups in 1 minute, 10 pull ups and can continuously jump rope for 3 minutes.
Demonstrate 20 throws
Compete in and win a local Judo tournament
Sorry BJJ guys... you have to compete in Judo to get rank. But hey, now that we all agree, we finally have a minimum standard for black belt.

A bunch of you reading this are saying to yourselves, "Who are you and who gave you the authority to set the standards? These don't reflect my art at all." And you would be right. But aren't we all doing this? We are looking at other schools and other arts and deciding for them, what their minimum standard should be, based on the standard we have at our own school. And we have exactly the same authority to do this as I have to set a universal standard for all arts... None.

Take some time and read the threads on this site about how to find a Martial Arts school. What are people told to do? Go watch the class or take the free class if they offer one. Watch the instructor to see if you get along with his teaching style. Watch the upper rank students and assistant instructors to see if they can do what is being taught. Essentially, we tell people to go see what the instructor can do, and what he can teach his students to do. Use that to determine if it is a good school to go to.

Any school can set any standard they want for black belt. However, every school will be judged by the quality of those black belts, by the eyes of the public. That includes other martial artists and non-martial artists. And if some other school has a higher, lower or just plain silly standard... so what? That standard only effects you if you join that school. So the important thing is to make sure that you agree with the standards that are set where you train. If the standards are a little low, you can find ways to push them up. Or train somewhere else. Those standards are going to vary, even within the same art and the same organization. This is why we tell people looking for an art, to find a good instructor over finding a particular art. A good instructor will have good standards, and students rising to meet those standards. Your idea of good standards may change as you progress...


----------



## vince1 (May 9, 2019)

I totally agree with every school or martial art having different standards to obtain a black belt and have experienced this myself. I remember clearly as a kid being enrolled in TaeKwonDo/Hapkido and quickly moving through the ranks to get my red belt. I had a gymnastic background prior to being enrolled into TaeKwonDo.I found the forms relatively easy along with gymnastic ability got me to a high rank in a short period of time.

Fast forward to my current martial art Aiki Jiu Jitsu. It will take many years to obtain a black belt ,not because of my lack of physical ability but because of the standard, quantity  of material that I need to learn. I like the challenge and have a much greater appreciation for past Masters that created this particular martial art based on, hands on experience.

So when I see a child with the rank of black belt I see a child with a huge amount of potential in the coming years. More than likely when this child gets older will experiment with other martial arts wanting to learn more.


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2019)

I think this thread has jumped the shark.


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Ok, I will set the minimum standard for black belts, that all arts must follow. The requirements are as follows:
> 
> 
> Fitness - run a mile in under 7 minutes, 50 sit ups in 1 minute, 10 pull ups and can continuously jump rope for 3 minutes.
> ...


isn't that a bit easy on the fitness.? that really shouldnt a challenge for any one under 50( who has any pretence of being fit) if , as seems to be the case on here, we want bla k belts to be considered elite, then the fitness standards need to be elite as well. not sure quite were that should be ,! top 5% , top 10% of the population by age . certainly no lower than the upper quartile, or it really does stop being elite and just gets very ordinary.



not sure an ability to memorise  dance moves should be included,  technique s yes, but in any order against a fully resisting partner,  ie if you cant kick him in the head, you've failed your kicking exam  if you do get kicked in the head, you've failed your moving out of the way  exam.


----------



## Buka (May 9, 2019)

AndreaLola said:


> I hope the link works.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



That was awesome. 

So....if you're the parents of the girl in the OP do you even see the difference?

Are there people who don't see the difference? What about the poor kid from the OP, would she see the difference? I know every kid I've ever trained would see and know the difference.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2019)

Steve said:


> You keep bringing up ELO.   you’re bringing me down man.   Don’t bring me down.


That would have been much funnier if @Bruce7 had been bringing it up.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> just as you would have a minimum IQ level to even be considered for a phd


What??


----------



## CB Jones (May 9, 2019)

Buka said:


> That was awesome.
> 
> So....if you're the parents of the girl in the OP do you even see the difference?
> 
> Are there people who don't see the difference? What about the poor kid from the OP, would she see the difference? I know every kid I've ever trained would see and know the difference.



Well the difference is pretty obvious...

The girl in the OP is wearing a black gi and the other is wearing a white gi....


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2019)

..


jobo said:


> isn't that a bit easy on the fitness.? that really shouldnt a challenge for any one under 50( who has any pretence of being fit) if , as seems to be the case on here, we want bla k belts to be considered elite, then the fitness standards need to be elite as well. not sure quite were that should be ,! top 5% , top 10% of the population by age . certainly no lower than the upper quartile, or it really does stop being elite and just gets very ordinary.
> 
> 
> 
> not sure an ability to memorise  dance moves should be included,  technique s yes, but in any order against a fully resisting partner,  ie if you cant kick him in the head, you've failed your kicking exam  if you do get kicked in the head, you've failed your moving out of the way  exam.


Actually, some folks, even when really fit, don't run distance at any speed. When I was running 7-10 miles per day, I couldn't run a mile in 7 minutes. Never have managed that pace that I can recall. I could sprint reasonably fast (about as fast as anyone on the high school soccer team, except the track stars), and could run 10 miles at will if the hills weren't unusually steep. But a 7-minute mile? Nope. And these days I can't train distance running on a regular basis, so my mile pace is slower than it was, and probably won't ever get better than about 8 minutes again in my lifetime.


----------



## dvcochran (May 9, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> Well the difference is pretty obvious...
> 
> The girl in the OP is wearing a black gi and the other is wearing a white gi....


Well, parents can be pretty blind when it comes to their own kids.


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> ..
> 
> Actually, some folks, even when really fit, don't run distance at any speed. When I was running 7-10 miles per day, I couldn't run a mile in 7 minutes. Never have managed that pace that I can recall. I could sprint reasonably fast (about as fast as anyone on the high school soccer team, except the track stars), and could run 10 miles at will if the hills weren't unusually steep. But a 7-minute mile? Nope. And these days I can't train distance running on a regular basis, so my mile pace is slower than it was, and probably won't ever get better than about 8 minutes again in my lifetime.


obviously never trained hard enough, it's only half a brisk walking pace, my 55 years old sister is down to 9 mins after 4 months of training and that's an average over three miles but anyway it wasnt me who set that as the minimum standard for a black belt, and if you cant meet that youl have to hand your belt back , it's tough but I dont make the rules, but then you cant skip either, so .........


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2019)

Buka said:


> That was awesome.
> 
> So....if you're the parents of the girl in the OP do you even see the difference?
> 
> Are there people who don't see the difference? What about the poor kid from the OP, would she see the difference? I know every kid I've ever trained would see and know the difference.


do You think the girl in the second video is average or exceptional for 7 year olds?   

Do you think the child in the OP is average or below average for 6 year olds?

Do you think the parents of the young girl in the OP should be ashamed of her poor performance?  

I’m just trying to get a read here.   Because this thread seems to be taking an ugly turn.


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> What??


you need an IQ in the Top 5% to get a phd, you cant just walk in off the street and give it a go


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Well, parents can be pretty blind when it comes to their own kids.


I invite you to post a video of your child doing something.   I’ll post a video of a child who is way better at the same thing, and then we can judge you and your child.  Sounds like a fun and constructive thread to me.  Think of all the things we can learn.


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> you need an IQ in the Top 5% to get a phd, you cant just walk in off the street and give it a go


I don’t think they give prospective college students IQ tests.


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> you need an IQ in the Top 5% to get a phd, you cant just walk in off the street and give it a go


 they have interviews and tests and things


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> they have interviews and tests and things


IQ tests?


----------



## dvcochran (May 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> ..
> 
> Actually, some folks, even when really fit, don't run distance at any speed. When I was running 7-10 miles per day, I couldn't run a mile in 7 minutes. Never have managed that pace that I can recall. I could sprint reasonably fast (about as fast as anyone on the high school soccer team, except the track stars), and could run 10 miles at will if the hills weren't unusually steep. But a 7-minute mile? Nope. And these days I can't train distance running on a regular basis, so my mile pace is slower than it was, and probably won't ever get better than about 8 minutes again in my lifetime.


When I went through the police academy we had to run 5 miles in 50 minutes and most everyone also had to run a 6 1/2 minute mile. I really struggled to work up to the mile pace. I just do not have the correct anatomy to be a natural runner. I was only 23 but still remember the struggle. I was just out of college where I played football also. Back then I could line up and do several fast 40 or 100 yard sprints before running out of gas as long as I had a short breather in between. I used to hike a lot with no problems. But I never had the grace or rhythm or coordination, etc... to run any distance at all. Time has not helped the situation.


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2019)

Steve said:


> I don’t think they give prospective college students IQ tests.


phd students, not college  students, but yes they do IQ tests here to get in to the prestigious  universities  just at degree level


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> obviously never trained hard enough, it's only half a brisk walking pace, my 55 years old sister is down to 9 mins after 4 months of training and that's an average over three miles but anyway it wasnt me who set that as the minimum standard for a black belt, and if you cant meet that youl have to hand your belt back , it's tough but I dont make the rules, but then you cant skip either, so .........


I trained pretty hard. I could play a full game of soccer pretty easily. I could run, climb, etc. I was just slow at distance. Some (perhaps much) of it is because I have exercise-induced asthma, which kicks in during sustained activity. The brief rests in soccer and such let me ignore it, but running distance was a different story.

The skipping rope on the other hand is ENTIRELY because I haven't trained, so there's that.


----------



## dvcochran (May 9, 2019)

Steve said:


> I don’t think they give prospective college students IQ tests.


Sure they do; ACT, SAT, probably some I do not know about.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> you need an IQ in the Top 5% to get a phd, you cant just walk in off the street and give it a go


IQ is a REALLY weak predictor for success in most things. I challenge you to find a source that says you need a given IQ score to get a PhD.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> they have interviews and tests and things


You're not very familiar with the process, are you?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> When I went through the police academy we had to run 5 miles in 50 minutes and most everyone also had to run a 6 1/2 minute mile. I really struggled to work up to the mile pace. I just do not have the correct anatomy to be a natural runner. I was only 23 but still remember the struggle. I was just out of college where I played football also. Back then I could line up and do several fast 40 or 100 yard sprints before running out of gas as long as I had a short breather in between. I used to hike a lot with no problems. But I never had the grace or rhythm or coordination, etc... to run any distance at all. Time has not helped the situation.


The 5 in 50 I could have run at many times in my life. The 6 1/2, I might have managed if I'd only trained just for a mile (no distance training) for a few months. Might. Not sure even that would have gotten me there.


----------



## dvcochran (May 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> IQ is a REALLY weak predictor for success in most things. I challenge you to find a source that says you need a given IQ score to get a PhD.


I obviously do not know the exact differences but they give great weight to ACT and SAT scores. Are they not along the same lines?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Sure they do; ACT, SAT, probably some I do not know about.


That's not an IQ test.


----------



## dvcochran (May 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The 5 in 50 I could have run at many times in my life. The 6 1/2, I might have managed if I'd only trained just for a mile (no distance training) for a few months. Might. Not sure even that would have gotten me there.


I forget the age cutoff but not everyone had to run the mile. I had a coworker going through at the same time who can run like a gazelle. He helped me out a lot.


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> You're not very familiar with the process, are you?


relatively I have two people I'm close to that have phds, so I've had it described me to


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I obviously do not know the exact differences but they give great weight to ACT and SAT scores. Are they not along the same lines?


Not really. Those have their own problems, but they are intended specifically to predict academic ability (ACT). GMAT and similar exams used to test prospects for graduate school are more directed at making sure they have the prerequisite knowledge for that program.

IQ is meant to be a measure of general intelligence - it's a different measure - and I'm not aware of any school of higher education that uses IQ scores for admission.


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> IQ is a REALLY weak predictor for success in most things. I challenge you to find a source that says you need a given IQ score to get a PhD.


it's a very strong predictor that if you have a low IQ your not getting a phd


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> relatively I have two people I'm close to that have phds, so I've had it described me to


It sounds like you missed some key points.


----------



## dvcochran (May 9, 2019)

As far as I know, still the highest average money making degree combo is most any graduate level engineering degree combined with a business management bachelors. Lifetime earnings average higher than others.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 9, 2019)

Super quick edit: my statement was already said almost word for word. Next time I should read through the thread before replying.


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Not really. Those have their own problems, but they are intended specifically to predict academic ability (ACT). GMAT and similar exams used to test prospects for graduate school are more directed at making sure they have the prerequisite knowledge for that program.
> 
> IQ is meant to be a measure of general intelligence - it's a different measure - and I'm not aware of any school of higher education that uses IQ scores for admission.


all academic tests are tests of iq


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> all academic tests are tests of iq


Nope, they're tests of your knowledge of that specific field. An IQ test is meant to determine your intelligence quotient. IQ Test | Encyclopedia of Psychology


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Not really. Those have their own problems, but they are intended specifically to predict academic ability (ACT). GMAT and similar exams used to test prospects for graduate school are more directed at making sure they have the prerequisite knowledge for that program.
> 
> IQ is meant to be a measure of general intelligence - it's a different measure - and I'm not aware of any school of higher education that uses IQ scores for admission.


here you go, cambridge requires an assessment test is undertaken, that measures you IQ to be able to successfully complete the course,
hers an 3xample test, let me know how you go

Are you smart enough to get into Cambridge? Take the quiz

nb scroll Down, 

see I'm assuming you couldn't work that out for yourself


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Nope, they're tests of your knowledge of that specific field. An IQ test is meant to determine your intelligence quotient. IQ Test | Encyclopedia of Psychology


but. you can learn how to take IQ tests, so IQ test are in themselves a specific field


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> phd students, not college  students, but yes they do IQ tests here to get in to the prestigious  universities  just at degree level


Really?  That doesn’t track.  Can you share a link?


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Sure they do; ACT, SAT, probably some I do not know about.


Those are IQ tests?  Huh.  When I took the SAT, I didn’t get an IQ score. Are you guys sure you know what an IQ actually is?


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2019)

Steve said:


> I invite you to post a video of your child doing something.   I’ll post a video of a child who is way better at the same thing, and then we can judge you and your child.  Sounds like a fun and constructive thread to me.  Think of all the things we can learn.


@dvcochran not sure if your reaction means you don’t have kids or you’re ashamed of them.


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I obviously do not know the exact differences but they give great weight to ACT and SAT scores. Are they not along the same lines?


No, they’re not.  and also the SAT scores are used for entrance to college as an undergrad, not post grad.   Also, SAT scores are part of the entrance, but far from the weightiest.   Do you have experience with kids applying to college?  It’s way more than test scores.


----------



## dvcochran (May 9, 2019)

Steve said:


> @dvcochran not sure if your reaction means you don’t have kids or you’re ashamed of them.


I do not know if that was meant to be funny but it was not. We have one incredible son. Never have nor never will be ashamed of him. Why would you ever make that comment?
And yes, our son graduated college. What is your point?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> but. you can learn how to take IQ tests, so IQ test are in themselves a specific field


Okay, so we're in agreement. IQ tests are a specified field that is different than SAT/ACT/MCT/GRE. Each are separate field, and they are not the same.


----------



## dvcochran (May 9, 2019)

Steve said:


> No, they’re not.  and also the SAT scores are used for entrance to college as an undergrad, not post grad.   Also, SAT scores are part of the entrance, but far from the weightiest.   Do you have experience with kids applying to college?  It’s way more than test scores.


MA/CA * 100. I will put more stock in other standardized test, like the ACT and SAT.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> IQ is a REALLY weak predictor for success in most things. I challenge you to find a source that says you need a given IQ score to get a PhD.



you would be hard pressed to find a non diploma mill that has ever issued a phD to anyone with an iq of 70. 

while not a predictor of success... the cutoff for the American armed services is 70. There is a reason for that.


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I do not know if that was meant to be funny but it was not. We have one incredible son. Never have nor never will be ashamed of him. Why would you ever make that comment?
> And yes, our son graduated college. What is your point?


If you posted a video of him doing something, I’d be happy to find another kid to whom We could compare him.  I mean.   That’s what we’re doing here.  Right?   To be clear, I think that’s a terrible idea.   You’re the one doing it.


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> but. you can learn how to take IQ tests, so IQ test are in themselves a specific field


I’m still curious about which universities in Britain use IQ as an entrance criterion.  Which one is that again?  oxford?  Cambridge?  Art Institute of Shoreditch?


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> MA/CA * 100. I will put more stock in other standardized test, like the ACT and SAT.


You really seem stuck on the standardized tests in general.  I was saying that the standardized tests are just a part of the application.  Most And the ones you’re referencing are for undergrad degrees.  Well, except the IQ test... no one uses that.  Jobo was talking about graduate school.  

But, just for fun, can you explain how this relates to the thread?  



TSDTexan said:


> you would be hard pressed to find a non diploma mill that has ever issued a phD to anyone with an iq of 70.
> 
> while not a predictor of success... the cutoff for the American armed services is 70. There is a reason for that.


Saying that only people in the top 5% IQ are admitted to a PhD program is very different than saying someone with impaired cognition will be able to earn a PhD.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (May 9, 2019)

Steve said:


> I’m still curious about which universities in Britain use IQ as an entrance criterion.  Which one is that again?  oxford?  Cambridge?  Art Institute of Shoreditch?



None, they use the next best thing, A-Levels.    

Anyway, couldn't resist the jab, carry on.


----------



## drop bear (May 9, 2019)

If we can't rely on belts as a standard then as informed martial artists we would be better off using another method or at least validating that with other methods. 

In other words if our child black belt is the real deal. Then we would need to back that up with evidence. 

That would separate a good school from a crap one.


----------



## Buka (May 10, 2019)

_do You think the girl in the second video is average or exceptional for 7 year olds? 
_
*I think she is exceptional.*_ 

Do you think the child in the OP is average or below average for 6 year olds?_

*I think she's average for six year olds*.
_
Do you think the parents of the young girl in the OP should be ashamed of her poor performance?_
*
I do not think the parents of the young girl should be ashamed of anything.* *I'm rather surprised you would ask that. Nice try though.*
_
I’m just trying to get a read here.   Because this thread seems to be taking an ugly turn._
*
Yes, it is. Why are you trying to take it there, Steve?*


----------



## CB Jones (May 10, 2019)

drop bear said:


> If we can't rely on belts as a standard then as informed martial artists we would be better off using another method or at least validating that with other methods.
> 
> In other words if our child black belt is the real deal. Then we would need to back that up with evidence.
> 
> That would separate a good school from a crap one.



Well the black belt is the standard for that school or style.

For a universal standard maybe use a headband or scarf (might get choked with that though)

So...John Doe could be a black belt in John Doe-itsu but only a green headband in martial arts.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 10, 2019)

jobo said:


> all academic tests are tests of iq


IQ is a specific measure, and doesn't correlate to specific knowledge in any given field. So, no.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 10, 2019)

jobo said:


> here you go, cambridge requires an assessment test is undertaken, that measures you IQ to be able to successfully complete the course,
> hers an 3xample test, let me know how you go
> 
> Are you smart enough to get into Cambridge? Take the quiz
> ...


Still not actually an IQ test, which is the point.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 10, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> you would be hard pressed to find a non diploma mill that has ever issued a phD to anyone with an iq of 70.
> 
> while not a predictor of success... the cutoff for the American armed services is 70. There is a reason for that.


A reasonable statement, but one which seems to be irrelevant to the claim Jobo made.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 10, 2019)

drop bear said:


> If we can't rely on belts as a standard then as informed martial artists we would be better off using another method or at least validating that with other methods.
> 
> In other words if our child black belt is the real deal. Then we would need to back that up with evidence.
> 
> That would separate a good school from a crap one.


My question would be "real deal" in what sense, DB? That gets us back to what a BB "should" mean.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 10, 2019)

Steve said:


> You really seem stuck on the standardized tests in general.  I was saying that the standardized tests are just a part of the application.  Most And the ones you’re referencing are for undergrad degrees.  Well, except the IQ test... no one uses that.  Jobo was talking about graduate school.
> 
> But, just for fun, can you explain how this relates to the thread?
> 
> ...




Yes, there are two different thoughts. Yes, my statement is different than the other one. Ask yourself, why would I make the specific statement I did. The exercise might tell you something that could easily be missed or overlooked.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> A reasonable statement, but one which seems to be irrelevant to the claim Jobo made.



Do to my perception that Jobo has been trolling me, I put a filter on his comments. Would you do me the favor of paraphrasing his claim? I would appreciate it.


----------



## mrt2 (May 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> My question would be* "real deal" in what sense*, DB? That gets us back to what a BB "should" mean.


I can't speak for drop bear, but I do have a sense of child martial artists and who is the "real deal" and who is not?  (and who is something in between.)  My experience is the last 14 months since I came back to MA. 

Real deal among higher belts (brown and black belts) does not mean a genuine badass who can presumably fight against a fit adult and win.  But it does mean they can more than hold their own against kids their own size, and apply their technique.  And it means the same level of mastery over the curricullum as an adult student.  I have not seen a 6 year old who meets this criteria.  Among 7 year olds, maybe 1 in 100 is the "real deal".  Among 8 year olds, maybe also 1 in 100.  Among 9 year olds, things get better and it goes up to maybe 1 in 10.  The kids who stick it out to age 11 or 12 are mostly pretty good, and the ones who continue their training into their teenage years are exceptional.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 10, 2019)

The other thing that is just as bad (imo), as awarding dans to folks who havent really earned by demonstrating a dan level of skill with technique, dan level knowledge of the forms etc... is when organizations award dans for folks who clearly dont even know an inkling of the curriculum for it.

Like when the KKW gave Mr. President Obama a 7th Dan. TKD was something he dabbled in while in college. This practice just as much cheapens and disrespects those who actually did the work to earn that grade... as the former issue of the OP


----------



## mrt2 (May 10, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> The other thing that is just as bad (imo), as awarding dans to folks who havent really earned by demonstrating a dan level of skill with technique, dan level knowledge of the forms etc... is when organizations award dans for folks who clearly dont even know an inkling of the curriculum for it.
> 
> Like when the KKW gave Mr. President Obama a 7th Dan. TKD was something he dabbled in while in college. This practice just as much cheapens and disrespects those who actually did the work to earn that grade... as the former issue of the OP


Well, I don't anticipate former president Obama opening up a chain of TKD schools in the US, but if he does, I would expect people here and else where to call him out that his honorary black belt isn't real.


----------



## Steve (May 10, 2019)

Buka said:


> _do You think the girl in the second video is average or exceptional for 7 year olds?
> _
> *I think she is exceptional.*_
> 
> ...


.  I've found that not calling out things like this when they occur implies agreement.   How rude of me to point it out.

I got the same line in the military.  Staff sgt was complaining about his sister dating a black dude.  I told him he could be a racist, but I didn't want to hear about it.  Another sgt asked me why I was making it a big deal.   

Funny how rhis happens sometimes.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 10, 2019)

Buka said:


> _do You think the girl in the second video is average or exceptional for 7 year olds?
> _
> *I think she is exceptional.*_
> 
> ...




The 2nd girl is clearly someone who spends a very large amount of training under instructors who are meticulous. 
Not only is the technique clear, crisp and proper, but the speed and timing of the whole form was orthodox. that is a higher level issue, beyond just getting the correct techniques done at the correct location in the form.

But is she a Mozart? a true child prodigy? I would be inclined to say and even believe that her gift is a patient temperament and has a drive for excellence. And that she is in an environment that has all the things necessary for her to thrive and develop to this level.

Ronda Rousey didnt just decide one day to take judo. Her parents were high level judoka. Her mother was an Olympic gold medalist.

I cite Ronda as an example of a phenomenon... martial arts practitioners who have sought excellence and strived for unrelenting improvement.... who have children.

And if those children decide to follow in the footsteps of mom/dad... they are in an unique and exceptional position.


----------



## jobo (May 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Still not actually an IQ test, which is the point.


and you have a particular definition in mind that stops that being an IQ test, all test measure intelligence to one extent or another,

what stops that being a test of intelligence  and therefore an IQ test ?

I've taken and administered a considerable number of iq test and they differ massively dependent on which aspects of intelligence the test designer values, if you take 3 scores t you will most likely get three different scores, they are all however test of iq

. I did one a couple of years back which required me to do long division with pen and paper, something I'd not done in 40 years, which knocked my test score down to 90%  and caused me to have a debate with the testing authority that it wasnt a fair test of IQ as it required memory,  those complaints fell on dear ears,note, they insisted that it was a national test of IQ and pre existing knowledge was indeed a requirement of all IQ tests



the problem being that IQ its self is not adequately defined, as anything other that an ability to take IQ tests to a specified standard, and IQ test is only defined as a test that measures IQ. therefore they can look like anything you want and still fit under the heading of iq


----------



## jobo (May 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> IQ is a specific measure, and doesn't correlate to specific knowledge in any given field. So, no.


all IQ tests require specific knowledge in one or more fields,


----------



## vince1 (May 10, 2019)

If your a movie star and living in the U.S.A you can buy a degree from a prestigious University for your son/daughter. Just saying.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 10, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> Do to my perception that Jobo has been trolling me, I put a filter on his comments. Would you do me the favor of paraphrasing his claim? I would appreciate it.


That universities use IQ as a necessary qualifier for entry.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 10, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> I can't speak for drop bear, but I do have a sense of child martial artists and who is the "real deal" and who is not?  (and who is something in between.)  My experience is the last 14 months since I came back to MA.
> 
> Real deal among higher belts (brown and black belts) does not mean a genuine badass who can presumably fight against a fit adult and win.  But it does mean they can more than hold their own against kids their own size, and apply their technique.  And it means the same level of mastery over the curricullum as an adult student.  I have not seen a 6 year old who meets this criteria.  Among 7 year olds, maybe 1 in 100 is the "real deal".  Among 8 year olds, maybe also 1 in 100.  Among 9 year olds, things get better and it goes up to maybe 1 in 10.  The kids who stick it out to age 11 or 12 are mostly pretty good, and the ones who continue their training into their teenage years are exceptional.


I wouldn't assume a child must have the same mastery as an adult. Their brains are quite different, and I'd expect a different outcome. When I see a child with a BB, I assume there's a specific set of requirements for the BB.

But even if we assumed the same standards for child and adult BB, that puts us right back at the question of what the standards are for BB. Give me any given child, of any given skill level with a BB, and we can probably find an adult with a BB of similar skill level.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 10, 2019)

jobo said:


> and you have a particular definition in mind that stops that being an IQ test, all test measure intelligence to one extent or another,
> 
> what stops that being a test of intelligence  and therefore an IQ test ?
> 
> ...


There's a difference between testing intelligence, and using a test to calculate the Intelligence Quotient.


----------



## jobo (May 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> There's a difference between testing intelligence, and using a test to calculate the Intelligence Quotient.


so you keep saying, but as you also wont say what the fundamental differance is,  which leads me to suppose that you dont actually know,!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 10, 2019)

jobo said:


> so you keep saying, but as you also wont say what the fundamental differance is,  which leads me to suppose that you dont actually know,!


If that's what it leads you to, fine. I'm not actually here to try to correct your gross misinterpretations and unsupported assumptions for your understanding.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 10, 2019)

vince1 said:


> If your a movie star and living in the U.S.A you can buy a degree from a prestigious University for your son/daughter. Just saying.



actually.. i dont think the scandal was buying degrees. It was cheating the admissions tests. ACT, MCATs et cetera.

Wealthy people were paying to have their kids tested at an alternate location, where the proctors were "fixing" the outcomes to award higher scores to get them into such prestigious institutions.

somehow the cheat system was unveiled, which lead to the FBI investigation and a number of arrests.

But this is far easier to achieve then buying off an entire element of university admin to secure the actual diploma.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That universities use IQ as a necessary qualifier for entry.


hmmm. I dont think my point was specifically addressed @ that. Which means jobo's claim it is irrelevant may have some merit, if that was what it was meant to address.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (May 10, 2019)

Just to get the IQ thing done with.          Intelligence is just how well you acquire information and how well you retain and can apply it.    Obviously some people are more minded in some fields than others and they might be able to acquire and retain the knowledge given to them but not be able to freely apply it outside of taking exams for example.

Worth noting some universities take people based on professional experience and also bring people in who have worked in a field for long enough who may or may not have a official qualification or degree in the field.     And below universities do that as well.  I believe i heard of a good photographer not knowing the science behind photography just knows what does and does not make a picture better in context, cant explain why, just knows thats what you should do.

Back onto something i was thinking,  i do kind of wish they would let lower belts teach more often, or let people who say have a sports BTEC teach for the warm up/exercise component.  They might not be as knowledgeable in the field of the style as a black belt in it, but it doesn't mean they cant teach the white belts or below their belt to some degree and be pretty good at teaching which is a separate skill in its entirety.  Same with say TKD and the warm ups/exercises they do,if you have done a sport BTEC you know some exercises.    (hell you might have in some cases done TKD in your sports education)   Pet peeve of mine honestly.      It kind of takes the issue about questionable black belts away to some degree, plus i have no real issue if you prefix it with honorary if you traditionally only let black belts take a position in your organization.  as long as nobody thinks that equates you to a full one.   After all, skill in the style has no say in how well you can help run the organization.  

Outside the scope of the thread i know, but there is a IQ argument going on.  




TSDTexan said:


> actually.. i dont think the scandal was buying degrees. It was cheating the admissions tests. ACT, MCATs et cetera.



You technically buy your degree anyway, as you need to pay the university for the course, but yes the scandal would have been that.   given succession of a degree registered you to practice as some things.       Like if you did a engineering one, you could be registered as a chartered engineer which indicates you are trained to preform to the level of your registration.  Or getting membership to other bodies etc.       (which is basically fraud if you didnt pass your exams truly)


----------



## Steve (May 10, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> Yes, there are two different thoughts. Yes, my statement is different than the other one. Ask yourself, why would I make the specific statement I did. The exercise might tell you something that could easily be missed or overlooked.


I did think about it and I got nothing .  can you spell it out?  Why would you feel it necessary to say someone with a cognitive impairment would not be accepted into a PhD program?  If you're making a subtle point, it's too subtle for me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 10, 2019)

Steve said:


> I did think about it and I got nothing .  can you spell it out?  Why would you feel it necessary to say someone with a cognitive impairment would not be accepted into a PhD program?  If you're making a subtle point, it's too subtle for me.


He was responding to the IQ discussion, but couldn't see Jobo's posts.


----------



## Bruce7 (May 10, 2019)

Steve said:


> Yeah.  She’s on par with some of the xma kids I’ve seen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*The 7 year old girl was a lot better.*
My 9 year old granddaughter can do everything this kid did better and she does not do MA, she is a gymnast.


----------



## Bruce7 (May 10, 2019)

jobo said:


> isn't that a bit easy on the fitness.? that really shouldnt a challenge for any one under 50( who has any pretence of being fit) if , as seems to be the case on here, we want bla k belts to be considered elite, then the fitness standards need to be elite as well. not sure quite were that should be ,! top 5% , top 10% of the population by age . certainly no lower than the upper quartile, or it really does stop being elite and just gets very ordinary.
> 
> 
> 
> not sure an ability to memorise  dance moves should be included,  technique s yes, but in any order against a fully resisting partner,  ie if you cant kick him in the head, you've failed your kicking exam  if you do get kicked in the head, you've failed your moving out of the way  exam.


 I agree with you. In high school I could run a 5 minute mile. In the navy ran a mile on the beach in boots in 6 minutes.


----------



## Bruce7 (May 10, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> When I went through the police academy we had to run 5 miles in 50 minutes and most everyone also had to run a 6 1/2 minute mile. I really struggled to work up to the mile pace. I just do not have the correct anatomy to be a natural runner. I was only 23 but still remember the struggle. I was just out of college where I played football also. Back then I could line up and do several fast 40 or 100 yard sprints before running out of gas as long as I had a short breather in between. I used to hike a lot with no problems. But I never had the grace or rhythm or coordination, etc... to run any distance at all. Time has not helped the situation.


To be fair, when I ran track in high school on a track, I weighed 135 lbs. ran 50 in the quarter, 2:06 in half, so 5 minute was very doable.
The 6 minutes in the sand was different story.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 10, 2019)

Steve said:


> I did think about it and I got nothing .  can you spell it out?  Why would you feel it necessary to say someone with a cognitive impairment would not be accepted into a PhD program?  If you're making a subtle point, it's too subtle for me.



Well...  I was touching on IQ and its use. Someone pointed out that it wasnt useful or predictive as a measure of success. I was comparing the inverse. Its measure as a predictor of failure.

It is inversely true. Those who fall on the highest side of the bell curve might not matriculate into PhD-hood.... but the lowest of the low definitely will not succeed in progressing to that level.

Barring the most improbable case of a nearly braindead autist or something of the sort. If somehow he or she could get the paper written intelligibly enough (with help). perhaps in math (rainman) or chemistry.

A human who couldn't dress themselves, but could had a unique or revolutionary insight into a rarified extreme high level of specialized knowledge.


----------



## jobo (May 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> If that's what it leads you to, fine. I'm not actually here to try to correct your gross misinterpretations and unsupported assumptions for your understanding.


well if not why do you dedicate so much of your time to erroneously try to correct me,


----------



## Steve (May 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> He was responding to the IQ discussion, but couldn't see Jobo's posts.


Ah. The ignore thing.  That just causes confusion.   I get it now.


----------



## Steve (May 10, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> *The 7 year old girl was a lot better.*
> My 9 year old granddaughter can do everything this kid did better and she does not do MA, she is a gymnast.


I thought we already agreed your grand kids are awesome.  

Seriously, though, I don't believe many 7 year olds can do what the kid did in the video.   I also think his movements were as crisp and controlled as in the other video.   He just was trained to do different things.  And, most importantly, exceptional kids may invite comparison to one another, but I don't see much good comparing them to an average kid.  For most kids, teaching then there is value in an activity even if you're not elite is a great life lesson.


----------



## Steve (May 10, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> Well...  I was touching on IQ and its use. Someone pointed out that it wasnt useful or predictive as a measure of success. I was comparing the inverse. Its measure as a predictor of failure.
> 
> It is inversely true. Those who fall on the highest side of the bell curve might not matriculate into PhD-hood.... but the lowest of the low definitely will not succeed in progressing to that level.
> 
> ...


That all makes sense . my only quick note is that there is a differwnce between the root abd the effect.  The iq isnt the reason a person is rejected from a PhD program. The cognitive impairmebt is the reason.


----------



## WaterGal (May 10, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> The other thing that is just as bad (imo), as awarding dans to folks who havent really earned by demonstrating a dan level of skill with technique, dan level knowledge of the forms etc... is when organizations award dans for folks who clearly dont even know an inkling of the curriculum for it.
> 
> Like when the KKW gave Mr. President Obama a 7th Dan. TKD was something he dabbled in while in college. This practice just as much cheapens and disrespects those who actually did the work to earn that grade... as the former issue of the OP



Eh, plenty of universities give honorary degrees to people who never studied there. That doesn't devalue their degree. Giving an honorary black belt to the Pope or the US President or whatever is basically the same as giving them an honorary degree, IMO.


----------



## dvcochran (May 10, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> Eh, plenty of universities give honorary degrees to people who never studied there. That doesn't devalue their degree. Giving an honorary black belt to the Pope or the US President or whatever is basically the same as giving them an honorary degree, IMO.


Agree. To be fair, the Pope or President are not likely to be in a leadership role in MA. In regards to the original video, the leadership at the childs school may not have been the ones who initiated the video, but they must have agreed to it. A poor reflection.


----------



## dvcochran (May 10, 2019)

Steve said:


> You really seem stuck on the standardized tests in general.  I was saying that the standardized tests are just a part of the application.  Most And the ones you’re referencing are for undergrad degrees.  Well, except the IQ test... no one uses that.  Jobo was talking about graduate school.
> 
> But, just for fun, can you explain how this relates to the thread?
> 
> ...


I cannot say it applies to the original thread all. Like most threads it has derailed into something else. 
It is apparent you are trying to make it something very different. I will ask again, what is your point to the remarks you made?


----------



## Bruce7 (May 10, 2019)

Steve said:


> I thought we already agreed your grand kids are awesome.
> 
> Seriously, though, I don't believe many 7 year olds can do what the kid did in the video.   I also think his movements were as crisp and controlled as in the other video.   He just was trained to do different things.  And, most importantly, exceptional kids may invite comparison to one another, but I don't see much good comparing them to an average kid.  For most kids, teaching then there is value in an activity even if you're not elite is a great life lesson.


I agree the 7 year old is one of a kind.The form was a work of art.
It takes way more skill to do a traditional form that perfect than doing a flip.
Sorry for the bragging about the grandkids.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 10, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> Eh, plenty of universities give honorary degrees to people who never studied there. That doesn't devalue their degree. Giving an honorary black belt to the Pope or the US President or whatever is basically the same as giving them an honorary degree, IMO.



Honorary degrees actually have that printed on them. I have seen a few honorary dan certificates, that every one of them failed to have this printed upon them.

Of course, I have not seen every honorary dan certificate on the planet. So, I don't want to say that all such certs fail to state that the dan certificate is honorary.

The ones that are honorary, and a teacher hides this, and presents it as the same as an earned one...... well this practice does devalue others that were infact earned.

especially, when such individuals don't know the curriculum that that dan level should in fact know.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> Honorary degrees actually have that printed on them. I have seen a few honorary dan certificates, that every one of them failed to have this printed upon them.
> 
> Of course, I have not seen every honorary dan certificate on the planet. So, I don't want to say that all such certs fail to state that the dan certificate is honorary.
> 
> ...


I think they can devalue the ranks of others holding the same rank (especially from the same source), but mostly only if the person receiving the honorary rank treats it as if it were a standard rank. So, if you granted me 2nd dan in Texfu in recognition of my prolific contributions to Martial Talk, and I hang it in my office because it looks cool there, that has little effect. If, on the other hand, I put Texfu on the window of my dojo and start wearing 2 stripes on the end of my belt because of that certificate, that's a different thing.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think they can devalue the ranks of others holding the same rank (especially from the same source), but mostly only if the person receiving the honorary rank treats it as if it were a standard rank. So, if you granted me 2nd dan in Texfu in recognition of my prolific contributions to Martial Talk, and I hang it in my office because it looks cool there, that has little effect. If, on the other hand, I put Texfu on the window of my dojo and start wearing 2 stripes on the end of my belt because of that certificate, that's a different thing.


The issue is that you don't know what someone will use their honorary dan for. If you visited my imaginary dojo a couple times, and for convenience purposes I gave you an honorary first dan in William Kempo, I wouldn't expect you to start teaching william kempo or claiming rank in it. In fact, that's exactly why I would feel comfortable giving you that rank. But, with that certificate, you could include that in your resume if you chose to. But if you started promoting yourself as a 1st degree black belt in William Kempo, not knowing the tech's I normally teach, that would give people an incorrect impression of the art.


----------



## dvcochran (May 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> There's a difference between testing intelligence, and using a test to calculate the Intelligence Quotient.


I am hesitant to jump back into this conversation but here goes. I ask this purely to spark debate, nothing else. How do you define the difference between IQ and knowledge? 

When I am looking at engineers to hire I am less concerned with initiative in a physical sense, something I test for in my own way and have a good record for recognizing. When I am screening Techs, I look for a different "personality" that displays natural inclination to be hands-on. Can I give you detailed instructions on how I do this? Not that would be clear and make sense to anyone else I don't think. I have people working that I am certain would have an IQ in the genius range. Does that matter to the work we do? Only if it is pertinent and they can apply it. We have some people I affectionately call cubicle geeks. Brilliant at writing code or designing control systems and crazy in their breadth of general (trivial)  knowledge. But if you try to get them to get into the nuts and bolts of a problem outside their areas of expertise and they absolutely balk. This is different for each person so it is a personal endeavor to learn their strengths and what interest them. I believe this is a big part of why our turnover rate is very low. 

So, to circle back around to the OP, if everyone on this site were asked to be the judges at the 6 year old's BB testing, and she was judged purely on skill and correctness, I think and hope collectively she would receive poor grades. This is nothing to do with the child herself, or whether she should be testing or not. If you look at the video objectively, how can you not think the technique is below any BB standard?


----------



## jobo (May 11, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am hesitant to jump back into this conversation but here goes. I ask this purely to spark debate, nothing else. How do you define the difference between IQ and knowledge?
> 
> When I am looking at engineers to hire I am less concerned with initiative in a physical sense, something I test for in my own way and have a good record for recognizing. When I am screening Techs, I look for a different "personality" that displays natural inclination to be hands-on. Can I give you detailed instructions on how I do this? Not that would be clear and make sense to anyone else I don't think. I have people working that I am certain would have an IQ in the genius range. Does that matter to the work we do? Only if it is pertinent and they can apply it. We have some people I affectionately call cubicle geeks. Brilliant at writing code or designing control systems and crazy in their breadth of general (trivial)  knowledge. But if you try to get them to get into the nuts and bolts of a problem outside their areas of expertise and they absolutely balk. This is different for each person so it is a personal endeavor to learn their strengths and what interest them. I believe this is a big part of why our turnover rate is very low.
> 
> So, to circle back around to the OP, if everyone on this site were asked to be the judges at the 6 year old's BB testing, and she was judged purely on skill and correctness, I think and hope collectively she would receive poor grades. This is nothing to do with the child herself, or whether she should be testing or not. If you look at the video objectively, how can you not think the technique is below any BB standard?


well as above all tests  require under pinning knowledge,  all test scores can be improved with practise, so practice of IQ tests  give an under pinning knowledge of how IQ tests are constructed and means you are rated as having a higher IQ

, the only differance between what is commonly referred, very deductively  an an IQ test is how its scored. but then only superficially, you still end up with a ratio of comparison against a % of the test population.

and it's quite easy to conclude that say getting a phd means you need intelligence only present in 5% of the population.  how you measure that is largley irrelevant as long as its reasonably accurate.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> The issue is that you don't know what someone will use their honorary dan for. If you visited my imaginary dojo a couple times, and for convenience purposes I gave you an honorary first dan in William Kempo, I wouldn't expect you to start teaching william kempo or claiming rank in it. In fact, that's exactly why I would feel comfortable giving you that rank. But, with that certificate, you could include that in your resume if you chose to. But if you started promoting yourself as a 1st degree black belt in William Kempo, not knowing the tech's I normally teach, that would give people an incorrect impression of the art.


Agreed. That's part of the selection process of who you give it to (if you're going to do them). Pres. Obama, for instance, was a safe choice. The Karate guy you bring in to do a weekend seminar on kicks, because you heard good things about his seminars, probably isn't.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am hesitant to jump back into this conversation but here goes. I ask this purely to spark debate, nothing else. How do you define the difference between IQ and knowledge?
> 
> When I am looking at engineers to hire I am less concerned with initiative in a physical sense, something I test for in my own way and have a good record for recognizing. When I am screening Techs, I look for a different "personality" that displays natural inclination to be hands-on. Can I give you detailed instructions on how I do this? Not that would be clear and make sense to anyone else I don't think. I have people working that I am certain would have an IQ in the genius range. Does that matter to the work we do? Only if it is pertinent and they can apply it. We have some people I affectionately call cubicle geeks. Brilliant at writing code or designing control systems and crazy in their breadth of general (trivial)  knowledge. But if you try to get them to get into the nuts and bolts of a problem outside their areas of expertise and they absolutely balk. This is different for each person so it is a personal endeavor to learn their strengths and what interest them. I believe this is a big part of why our turnover rate is very low.
> 
> So, to circle back around to the OP, if everyone on this site were asked to be the judges at the 6 year old's BB testing, and she was judged purely on skill and correctness, I think and hope collectively she would receive poor grades. This is nothing to do with the child herself, or whether she should be testing or not. If you look at the video objectively, how can you not think the technique is below any BB standard?



IQ is meant to be a measure of overall intelligence, mostly considered aptitude for learning, more or less. (It's arguable whether it actually measures that, whether it's using a reasonable definition of "intelligence", etc.)

Knowledge is learning already achieved - often expressed as information that can be recalled and topics that can be understood based on that, sometimes as skills one can execute - usually in a given area.

So, I can have a higher IQ than the next guy, and still have less knowledge than him. Someone of average IQ who attends an engineering school and graduates will have a crapton of knowledge I don't possess.


----------



## jobo (May 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> IQ is meant to be a measure of overall intelligence, mostly considered aptitude for learning, more or less. (It's arguable whether it actually measures that, whether it's using a reasonable definition of "intelligence", etc.)
> 
> Knowledge is learning already achieved - often expressed as information that can be recalled and topics that can be understood based on that, sometimes as skills one can execute - usually in a given area.
> 
> So, I can have a higher IQ than the next guy, and still have less knowledge than him. Someone of average IQ who attends an engineering school and graduates will have a crapton of knowledge I don't possess.


your failing to make an adequate distinction between knowledge and memory. 

and as above, using IQ tests as practise means, he would be gaining knowledge and mean Mr average could quite easily become Mr well above average, if your only using standard IQ tests as a measure


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2019)

jobo said:


> well as above all tests  require under pinning knowledge,  all test scores can be improved with practise, so practice of IQ tests  give an under pinning knowledge of how IQ tests are constructed and means you are rated as having a higher IQ
> 
> , the only differance between what is commonly referred, very deductively  an an IQ test is how its scored. but then only superficially, you still end up with a ratio of comparison against a % of the test population.
> 
> and it's quite easy to conclude that say getting a phd means you need intelligence only present in 5% of the population.  how you measure that is largley irrelevant as long as its reasonably accurate.


You are quite correct about some of the issues with IQ tests (and there are others, of course). It's a useful measure in some ways, but relatively useless in most others. It doesn't correlate well to scholastic success, nor to success in other endeavors.

The folks getting PhD's do not all fall into the top 5% of IQ scores. It's probable there's a higher percentage of high IQ's in the lot than in the population at large. If I recall correctly, the _average _score for people graduating college is near that 5% mark, so there's clearly some correlation. Your original claim was that IQ was used to determine who could attend a PhD program, and that's what I was calling you out on. If that wasn't the claim you intended, then it's just a miscommunication.

EDIT: I looked around and managed to find some numbers that seem to match up. So the average IQ for folks with PhD is actually around that 5th percentile. That means about half of the people with PhD's are outside that group.


----------



## jobo (May 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> You are quite correct about some of the issues with IQ tests (and there are others, of course). It's a useful measure in some ways, but relatively useless in most others. It doesn't correlate well to scholastic success, nor to success in other endeavors.
> 
> The folks getting PhD's do not all fall into the top 5% of IQ scores. It's probable there's a higher percentage of high IQ's in the lot than in the population at large. If I recall correctly, the _average _score for people graduating college is near that 5% mark, so there's clearly some correlation. Your original claim was that IQ was used to determine who could attend a PhD program, and that's what I was calling you out on. If that wasn't the claim you intended, then it's just a miscommunication.
> 
> EDIT: I looked around and managed to find some numbers that seem to match up. So the average IQ for folks with PhD is actually around that 5th percentile. That means about half of the people with PhD's are outside that group.


which particular average are you using,as that has a significant bearing. ?

it does correlate to success, as previously discussed, it failed to take both social and personality issue in to accounts as they are at least as important, as it fails to acknowledge has certain skill sets like verbal communication as being important in success

and of course how your defining success,  academic  qualifications are success,  then you will not reach them with out the nessercery intelligence,  if being ritch is success, then there appears to be a very high% of really dim people who achieve that


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2019)

jobo said:


> your failing to make an adequate distinction between knowledge and memory.
> 
> and as above, using IQ tests as practise means, he would be gaining knowledge and mean Mr average could quite easily become Mr well above average, if your only using standard IQ tests as a measure


Memory is a function in the brain, and is a large part of how we generate what is commonly known as knowledge. If someone doesn't "know" something, they can't remember it (whether they could in the past or not). If you see a distinction between them, provide it.

As for your claim that someone could move from around the 50th percentile to something significantly higher just by practicing the test, I've never seen that in any study. The closest I've seen is that several years of schooling (in the write-up I'm recalling, it was early schooling) can raise the IQ by several points (I believe they cited an average of 7-8 points).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2019)

jobo said:


> which particular average are you using,as that has a significant bearing. ?
> 
> it does correlate to success, as previously discussed, it failed to take both social and personality issue in to accounts as they are at least as important, as it fails to acknowledge has certain skill sets like verbal communication as being important in success
> 
> and of course how your defining success,  academic  qualifications are success,  then you will not reach them with out the nessercery intelligence,  if being ritch is success, then there appears to be a very high% of really dim people who achieve that


It is a weak correlation, in most cases. If I said there was no correlation, that was a mis-statement on my part.

Other measures seem to correlate more strongly (EQ, as coined by Daniel Goleman is an attempt to measure aspects not included in IQ, like the ability to understand in active communication).

You aren't entirely wrong. You simply overstated the case in your early posts, including making a claim that IQ was used as an entry qualifier. You're now strawmanning my responses to try to make it as if I said IQ doesn't matter.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 11, 2019)

jobo said:


> you need an IQ in the Top 5% to get a phd


No, you don't. You just have to do the work and make an original contribution to a field of study. Speaking as someone doing a PhD right now.


----------



## jobo (May 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It is a weak correlation, in most cases. If I said there was no correlation, that was a mis-statement on my part.
> 
> Other measures seem to correlate more strongly (EQ, as coined by Daniel Goleman is an attempt to measure aspects not included in IQ, like the ability to understand in active communication).
> 
> You aren't entirely wrong. You simply overstated the case in your early posts, including making a claim that IQ was used as an entry qualifier. You're now strawmanning my responses to try to make it as if I said IQ doesn't matter.


we will never know if its weak or strong unless you have a working definition of " success" to compare it against.

your continuing  you MO of making up definitions to prove a point, that you refuse to reveal


----------



## jobo (May 11, 2019)

RTKDCMB said:


> No, you don't. You just have to do the work and make an original contribution to a field of study. Speaking as someone doing a PhD right now.


well you need a high IQ to make an original CONTRIBUTION, or put it another way, the fact you dont know that , makes me doubt tha your doing a phd or if that is so, that you will achieve it. QED!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2019)

jobo said:


> we will never know if its weak or strong unless you have a working definition of " success" to compare it against.
> 
> your continuing  you MO of making up definitions to prove a point, that you refuse to reveal


Actually, what's happening is you're continuing your MO of changing the target to avoid defending an entirely incorrect statement you made.

When we reach that point, we're done. So we're done here.


----------



## Buka (May 11, 2019)

TSDTexan said:


> Honorary degrees actually have that printed on them. I have seen a few honorary dan certificates, that every one of them failed to have this printed upon them.
> 
> Of course, I have not seen every honorary dan certificate on the planet. So, I don't want to say that all such certs fail to state that the dan certificate is honorary.
> 
> ...





gpseymour said:


> I think they can devalue the ranks of others holding the same rank (especially from the same source), but mostly only if the person receiving the honorary rank treats it as if it were a standard rank. So, if you granted me 2nd dan in Texfu in recognition of my prolific contributions to Martial Talk, and I hang it in my office because it looks cool there, that has little effect. If, on the other hand, I put Texfu on the window of my dojo and start wearing 2 stripes on the end of my belt because of that certificate, that's a different thing.





kempodisciple said:


> The issue is that you don't know what someone will use their honorary dan for. If you visited my imaginary dojo a couple times, and for convenience purposes I gave you an honorary first dan in William Kempo, I wouldn't expect you to start teaching william kempo or claiming rank in it. In fact, that's exactly why I would feel comfortable giving you that rank. But, with that certificate, you could include that in your resume if you chose to. But if you started promoting yourself as a 1st degree black belt in William Kempo, not knowing the tech's I normally teach, that would give people an incorrect impression of the art.




I have a few of those Honorary suckers. They're in a cardboard mailing tube in my closet. I just went and looked at them and yup, they say "Honorary Black Belt" right there on the front of them.

But I'll tell you what, they mean more to me than ones I've earned. To me, they are a great honor bestowed upon me by long time recognized Instructors from other systems/styles/lineages. Some of these people I've trained off and on with for forty years. I've trained some of their students in how to apply their own art to fighting and/or self defense, I've trained under some of their instructors, too, Masters, what-have-you. And back in the day we used to beat the crap out of each other in competitions, or at each others dojos.

I'm just surprised nobody as yet to give me an Honorary Punching Bag certificate. I think I've earned it.


----------



## jobo (May 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, what's happening is you're continuing your MO of changing the target to avoid defending an entirely incorrect statement you made.
> 
> When we reach that point, we're done. So we're done here.





gpseymour said:


> Actually, what's happening is you're continuing your MO of changing the target to avoid defending an entirely incorrect statement you made.
> 
> When we reach that point, we're done. So we're done here.


the original bone of contention is that you have a secret definition of IQ that you wont reveal, but you are using your secrete definition to conclude I'm wrong


----------



## dvcochran (May 11, 2019)

@jobo,  Let is go. It is ok, just let it go.


----------



## Headhunter (May 11, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> @jobo,  Let is go. It is ok, just let it go.


Wow jobo arguing about something? Damm that's rare....sarcasm


----------



## jobo (May 11, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Wow jobo arguing about something? Damm that's rare....sarcasm


as a general rule of thumb, if you need to explain you were being sarcastic you weren't  being sarcastic enough for it to count as sarcasm


----------



## jobo (May 11, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> @jobo,  Let is go. It is ok, just let it go.


its these people that flounce off rather than admit their error, it must be an American thing, flouncing off,


----------



## JR 137 (May 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Memory is a function in the brain, and is a large part of how we generate what is commonly known as knowledge. If someone doesn't "know" something, they can't remember it (whether they could in the past or not). If you see a distinction between them, provide it.
> 
> As for your claim that someone could move from around the 50th percentile to something significantly higher just by practicing the test, I've never seen that in any study. The closest I've seen is that several years of schooling (in the write-up I'm recalling, it was early schooling) can raise the IQ by several points (I believe they cited an average of 7-8 points).


From what I’ve read, they can improve by several points. But those few points are insignificant. They’re no where near a full standard deviation. When measuring IQ, a couple point swing is insignificant. What’s significant is if you can improve by a standard deviation, which is practically impossible. 

Most tests like admissions tests, such as the SAT, ACT, GRE, MCAT, et al. are measuring memory recall more than anything else. IQ is measuring complex problem solving far more than memory recall. Somehow with IQ, incorrect answers that show the correct thought process get awarded some points. In most other tests, the answer is either right or wrong. 

I saw quite a few sample tests from many tests during my graduate Measurement and Appraisal class. IQ test is quite a bit different than anything else I came across.

As far as predicting collegiate success... the SAT and ACT aren’t very reliable. Look at the drop out rate of undergrad students. The ASVAB test (Armed Services Vocational Battery) was statistically far better at predicting success within a field of study when we analyzed the data. That was around 2003, so things may have changed. But I doubt it, to be honest. 

When I was in high school, everyone took the ASVAB. I don’t think it’s like that anymore.


----------



## dvcochran (May 11, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Somehow with IQ, incorrect answers that show the correct thought process get awarded some points. In most other tests, the answer is either right or wrong.



This reminds me of when I would get dinged for not following the steps in algebra or calculus, even though I got the answer right. It never made good sense to me. When someone is first learning the formula or equation I get it. But not when you know how to apply them and can skip a few steps.


----------



## jobo (May 12, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> From what I’ve read, they can improve by several points. But those few points are insignificant. They’re no where near a full standard deviation. When measuring IQ, a couple point swing is insignificant. What’s significant is if you can improve by a standard deviation, which is practically impossible.
> 
> Most tests like admissions tests, such as the SAT, ACT, GRE, MCAT, et al. are measuring memory recall more than anything else. IQ is measuring complex problem solving far more than memory recall. Somehow with IQ, incorrect answers that show the correct thought process get awarded some points. In most other tests, the answer is either right or wrong.
> 
> ...


I take issue that a rise of say 8 points isn't significant, that's a SIGNIFICANTLY high % increase for someone who has a low score to begin with
, bu heres an article on a study which quotes a figure of 28 points increase that can be achieved by ration problem solving practise,  which by any measure is significant

New Evidence That IQ Can Be Increased With Brain Training


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 12, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> This reminds me of when I would get dinged for not following the steps in algebra or calculus, even though I got the answer right. It never made good sense to me. When someone is first learning the formula or equation I get it. But not when you know how to apply them and can skip a few steps.


For a couple of years in math, the math was too easy for me (they cured that when I got to calculus). The teacher would tell me I had to show all my steps, and I'd reply, "That IS all my steps!"


----------



## jobo (May 12, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> For a couple of years in math, the math was too easy for me (they cured that when I got to calculus). The teacher would tell me I had to show all my steps, and I'd reply, "That IS all my steps!"


I bet your to young to have learned to use a slide rule " calculator"


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 12, 2019)

jobo said:


> I take issue that a rise of say 8 points isn't significant, that's a SIGNIFICANTLY high % increase for someone who has a low score to begin with
> , bu heres an article on a study which quotes a figure of 28 points increase that can be achieved by ration problem solving practise,  which by any measure is significant
> 
> New Evidence That IQ Can Be Increased With Brain Training


A good example of a problem with the IQ test and defining intelligence (what IQ is "supposed" to be measuring should not be this malleable). Thanks for sharing that.

Note that this is not training by the test, but training to develop related skills. Interestingly, schooling doesn't seem to have a similar effect (or at least, not of this magnitude and time frame).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 12, 2019)

jobo said:


> I bet your to young to have learned to use a slide rule " calculator"


I've used one, but only out of intellectual curiosity. I had a very nice leather-based one that used to belong to my grandfather. No idea what happened to that - I'd love to have it on my desk right now.


----------



## jobo (May 12, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> A good example of a problem with the IQ test and defining intelligence (what IQ is "supposed" to be measuring should not be this malleable). Thanks for sharing that.
> 
> Note that this is not training by the test, but training to develop related skills. Interestingly, schooling doesn't seem to have a similar effect (or at least, not of this magnitude and time frame).


yes, but doing brain train that mimic IQ tests is much the same as doing brain training using iq tests,

but it is malleable,  the latest thinking is that iq is circa  50% genetic and 50% nurture / enviroment, even if that ratio is more towards genetics,, its fairly obvious that changing the environment for the better will have the effect of increasing your IQ, there is no way to factor that out

the issue is " education " should teach you to think, not just to be able to regurgitate  information, that commonly only comes into effect at university, and certainly not in state schools, by which time it's to late to effect your life choices, unless you take matters into your own hands as an adult


----------



## dvcochran (May 12, 2019)

jobo said:


> I bet your to young to have learned to use a slide rule " calculator"


Oh,  I remember the "slipstick" and the architects scale quite well. Still use the scale quite often.


----------



## dvcochran (May 12, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> For a couple of years in math, the math was too easy for me (they cured that when I got to calculus). The teacher would tell me I had to show all my steps, and I'd reply, "That IS all my steps!"


I hate calculus, because I do not use it everyday, but it is incredibly elegant. There are several conditions when we have no choice. In interpolated motion applications it is the best way to do the math. It is possible programming the motion without it but it gets really long and sloppy. Hard to troubleshoot.


----------



## JR 137 (May 12, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> For a couple of years in math, the math was too easy for me (they cured that when I got to calculus). The teacher would tell me I had to show all my steps, and I'd reply, "That IS all my steps!"


The problem is kids not showing any work and giving an incorrect answer. You have no way of really knowing if they understand and  can easily use the concept or not. A wrong answer in a complicated problem could mean they simply forgot to carry the 1 or messed up a simple addition or subtraction. Or it could mean they had no f’ing clue and wrote down anything. 

I’ve been teaching grades 5 and 6 math this year and I despise teaching it. No way I’m going to do it again. Except for two kids who are completely clueless, when my kids make mistakes, it’s the simple math, not how to do the actual problem. As a teacher, I can live with the simple mistakes and not get stressed out about it. It’s the kids who’ve got no clue that make me have to change the way I present it.

Them showing the work allows me to give partial credit. Only putting an answer down doesn’t.

Then there’s NYS tests. The Regents exam in algebra has taken an odd turn. In the multi-step section, which is quite a big portion, the correct answer is worth 1/10 points. So the kids like you who just put an answer down, even if it’s correct, will score a maximum of 5/50. We had one clown do just that. He refused to show his work all year. The teacher kept penalizing him (but not to that extent) and told him repeatedly he’d lose all those points when he took the NYS exam. His reply “I’ll show my work on that test.” He didn’t do it. He got every answer right and still failed it. And he was reminded during the test, even though we weren’t allowed to. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.


----------



## JR 137 (May 12, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> For a couple of years in math, the math was too easy for me (they cured that when I got to calculus). The teacher would tell me I had to show all my steps, and I'd reply, "That IS all my steps!"


In the calculus I took, it was all about skipping steps - derivatives.

I took technical math 1-3 during my 3 semester stint in mechanical engineering. Technical math was all engineering math - logarithms, derivatives, graphing stuff, et al. It was all calculus based. I actually did pretty well and the professors for those classes all told me I should be a math major because the way I see it and understand it. Not a chance. I despised it. Doing math for a realistic outcome is one thing; doing it for the sake of doing it and/or teaching it is quite another. I really liked using it in my technical physics 1 and 2 classes, but just sitting there doing math problems made me want to off myself.


----------



## CB Jones (May 12, 2019)

Kinda funny how far off track this thread has gone.

Started off about a 6 year old bb and now is on testing IQ and doing math....lol.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 12, 2019)

Buka said:


> I have a few of those Honorary suckers. They're in a cardboard mailing tube in my closet. I just went and looked at them and yup, they say "Honorary Black Belt" right there on the front of them.
> 
> But I'll tell you what, they mean more to me than ones I've earned. To me, they are a great honor bestowed upon me by long time recognized Instructors from other systems/styles/lineages. Some of these people I've trained off and on with for forty years. I've trained some of their students in how to apply their own art to fighting and/or self defense, I've trained under some of their instructors, too, Masters, what-have-you. And back in the day we used to beat the crap out of each other in competitions, or at each others dojos.
> 
> I'm just surprised nobody as yet to give me an Honorary Punching Bag certificate. I think I've earned it.



Glad to know that at least some of them honorary certs have it on em.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 12, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> Kinda funny how far off track this thread has gone.
> 
> Started off about a 6 year old bb and now is on testing IQ and doing math....lol.



yep. but not really. The MT posting community tends to do that. Something about attention spans and staying on poin...
HEY LOOK! Its a Squirrel!!!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 12, 2019)

jobo said:


> yes, but doing brain train that mimic IQ tests is much the same as doing brain training using iq tests,


The article you posted specifically said the training was NOT similar to an IQ test.



> but it is malleable,  the latest thinking is that iq is circa  50% genetic and 50% nurture / enviroment, even if that ratio is more towards genetics,, its fairly obvious that changing the environment for the better will have the effect of increasing your IQ, there is no way to factor that out


This is true. The research I've seen shows that effect mostly (not entirely, I don't think) in early experience. This is consistent with what we know of brain development. Environment probably has the most impact before and shortly after the dendritic "pruning" that occurs during toddler years.



> the issue is " education " should teach you to think, not just to be able to regurgitate  information, that commonly only comes into effect at university, and certainly not in state schools, by which time it's to late to effect your life choices, unless you take matters into your own hands as an adult


This is a common complaint of mine about how parts of education are handled. There's little linking of subjects to make the lessons more pertinent than the topic at hand. Math seems to teach more problem-solving than any other topic, but schools oddly miss the opportunity to show how this approach can be generalized outside that area. The best teachers surpass the curriculum and force (teach) people to think for themselves.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 12, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Oh,  I remember the "slipstick" and the architects scale quite well. Still use the scale quite often.


I actually have a scale in my workbench drawer, and sometimes even use it for its intended purpose.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 12, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> The problem is kids not showing any work and giving an incorrect answer. You have no way of really knowing if they understand and  can easily use the concept or not. A wrong answer in a complicated problem could mean they simply forgot to carry the 1 or messed up a simple addition or subtraction. Or it could mean they had no f’ing clue and wrote down anything.
> 
> I’ve been teaching grades 5 and 6 math this year and I despise teaching it. No way I’m going to do it again. Except for two kids who are completely clueless, when my kids make mistakes, it’s the simple math, not how to do the actual problem. As a teacher, I can live with the simple mistakes and not get stressed out about it. It’s the kids who’ve got no clue that make me have to change the way I present it.
> 
> ...


I actually teach that point when I teach Excel classes - I teach folks to use a similar step-by-step approach to complex formulae, so they can figure out where the error is.

My issue with "show your work" was that for a while, I literally looked at many questions and just knew the answer (of course, I was doing all the work quickly in my head, but wasn't actually having to think about it). Asking me to show my work would be like asking me to show the steps I took to find out 4+45=49. Of course, if I was wrong, the teacher could do nothing to help me.

I figured out the point of the exercise a year later in pre-calculus, which I dropped and re-took the next year (physics class taught me to think through the problem in steps again before that next year).


----------



## jobo (May 12, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The article you posted specifically said the training was NOT similar to an IQ test.
> 
> 
> This is true. The research I've seen shows that effect mostly (not entirely, I don't think) in early experience. This is consistent with what we know of brain development. Environment probably has the most impact before and shortly after the dendritic "pruning" that occurs during toddler years.
> ...


no it said it was dissimilar to the IQ test they used, not that is was dissimilar to all IQ tests, which come in various forms and DISIMILAR doesn't mean total different,  it has to have some similarities  to be considered dissimilar,


----------



## dvcochran (May 12, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> In the calculus I took, it was all about skipping steps - derivatives.
> 
> I took technical math 1-3 during my 3 semester stint in mechanical engineering. Technical math was all engineering math - logarithms, derivatives, graphing stuff, et al. It was all calculus based. I actually did pretty well and the professors for those classes all told me I should be a math major because the way I see it and understand it. Not a chance. I despised it. Doing math for a realistic outcome is one thing; doing it for the sake of doing it and/or teaching it is quite another. I really liked using it in my technical physics 1 and 2 classes, but just sitting there doing math problems made me want to off myself.


I Loved my physics classes. I could see the real world applications so it made sense. Derivation and integration is the calculus we use quite a lot. Not so much limits or standard analysis. SA models seem to be changing so rapidly I have no idea how anyone ever understand it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 12, 2019)

jobo said:


> no it said it was dissimilar to the IQ test they used, not that is was dissimilar to all IQ tests, which come in various forms and DISIMILAR doesn't mean total different,  it has to have some similarities  to be considered dissimilar,


You have an odd definition of dissimilar.


----------



## dvcochran (May 12, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> You have an odd definition of dissimilar.


I hate to admit it by jobo is not wrong.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 12, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I hate to admit it by jobo is not wrong.


The common definitions I find are similar to this one:
"not alike; different."

There's nothing in that definition that requires similarities.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 13, 2019)

jobo said:


> well you need a high IQ to make an original CONTRIBUTION, or put it another way, the fact you dont know that , makes me doubt tha your doing a phd or if that is so, that you will achieve it. QED!


This tells me that you have never undertaken any kind of higher education, much less a PhD. Then I suppose anyone with an IQ above 80 will seem high compared to you.


----------



## Orion Nebula (May 14, 2019)

jobo said:


> you need an IQ in the Top 5% to get a phd, you cant just walk in off the street and give it a go





RTKDCMB said:


> No, you don't. You just have to do the work and make an original contribution to a field of study. Speaking as someone doing a PhD right now.



While I disagree with the notion that it's a requirement to have an IQ in the top 5% to get a PhD, jobo's claim is actually somewhat supported by what little information I've seen on the topic. One source from the 1970's estimated the average IQ of a graduate degree holders to be 125, which is right around the 5% mark. I've seen a few more recent popular articles list 130 (in the 2-3% range) as the average for PhD holders, although people rarely cite their sources, so I'm not sure where they are finding their info.

However, as these are average values, that means there are people with both higher and lower IQ's who have PhD's, so an IQ of 125 or above is hardly a requirement. I would say this matches up with my limited exposure to graduate students at two universities, plus a variety of professors I've had along the way. There are plenty of people who seem particularly brilliant and everything comes easy to them, but there are also plenty of people who struggle a lot more with the coursework side of things but work their butts off to make sure they maintain a 3.0 GPA. They also work hard at their research and you don't need to have an IQ in the top 5% to think critically and come up with interesting new research questions that will expand human knowledge. 

Of course, IQ tests are biased and favor the socioeconomic groups in power that design them. This blog gives a brief overview of bias in intelligence testing. That's not to say that IQ testing isn't a useful tool for what it was designed for as well as other applications, but using it as a cutoff for being able to achieve this or that is a mistake.


----------



## jobo (May 14, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> While I disagree with the notion that it's a requirement to have an IQ in the top 5% to get a PhD, jobo's claim is actually somewhat supported by what little information I've seen on the topic. One source from the 1970's estimated the average IQ of a graduate degree holders to be 125, which is right around the 5% mark. I've seen a few more recent popular articles list 130 (in the 2-3% range) as the average for PhD holders, although people rarely cite their sources, so I'm not sure where they are finding their info.
> 
> However, as these are average values, that means there are people with both higher and lower IQ's who have PhD's, so an IQ of 125 or above is hardly a requirement. I would say this matches up with my limited exposure to graduate students at two universities, plus a variety of professors I've had along the way. There are plenty of people who seem particularly brilliant and everything comes easy to them, but there are also plenty of people who struggle a lot more with the coursework side of things but work their butts off to make sure they maintain a 3.0 GPA. They also work hard at their research and you don't need to have an IQ in the top 5% to think critically and come up with interesting new research questions that will expand human knowledge.
> 
> Of course, IQ tests are biased and favor the socioeconomic groups in power that design them. This blog gives a brief overview of bias in intelligence testing. That's not to say that IQ testing isn't a useful tool for what it was designed for as well as other applications, but using it as a cutoff for being able to achieve this or that is a mistake.


thanks for the support, people on here just disagree with me for the sake of it.

but I'd take issue with your statement , that as these are averages there must be lower scores, and even if there are lower scores to average of say 3, that these are lower than 5%


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 14, 2019)

..


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 14, 2019)

..


----------



## jobo (May 14, 2019)

RTKDCMB said:


> This tells me that you have never undertaken any kind of higher education, much less a PhD. Then I suppose anyone with an IQ above 80 will seem high compared to you.


that's a bit uncharitable, I'm very good at IQ tests, partly naturally  and as I've practised them to become better, I regularly score in the top 5,/10/ 15 % dependent on the make up of the test and how much time is a factor, I score a much higher % if time is tight, as if I know the answer I know it quickly and if I dont ,I realise that quickly and just move on.

this has translated in me breezing through a number of post grad qualifications as I can just read a book or 5 a week before and pass the exam, my masters was a struggle  as I had to pay attention and work for The full duration of the course and I have no where  near the work ethic required for a phd.

I take it you've judged part of your assessment on me as a result of my dyslexia,  and to be fair your  not the first to come to the conclusion I'm stupid, it's a problem I've had to face all my life, even more so  if you saw my hand writting

note to mods, isn5 there a rule here that includes mocking peoples disabilities ? just wondering as it seems to happen quite a lot


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 14, 2019)

jobo said:


> I take it you've judged part of your assessment on me as a result of my dyslexia, and to be fair your not the first to come to the conclusion I'm stupid, it's a problem I've had to face all my life, even more so if you saw my hand writting
> 
> note to mods, isn5 there a rule here that includes mocking peoples disabilities ?



I wasn't even aware you had dyslexia. It wasn't a factor in my response, which was about the Dunning-Kruger type comment you made. Also, I resent the fact that you try to use your disability to misrepresent my position as an argument tactic.


----------



## jobo (May 14, 2019)

RTKDCMB said:


> I wasn't even aware you had dyslexia. It wasn't a factor in my response, which was about the Dunning-Kruger type comment you made. Also, I resent the fact that you try to use your disability to misrepresent my position as an argument tactic.


well you claimed I had an IQ substanially less than 80, if that were so I would be educationally sub normal , which in its self would be a disability you were mocking, so no matter how you analyse it, you were mockinga disability

dont worry the mods only hand out warnings for e xpressing anti war sentiments,  mocking the afflicted  seems to be ok


----------



## Danny T (May 14, 2019)

Hahahahahaha...now he's a victim.


----------



## dvcochran (May 14, 2019)

jobo said:


> well you claimed I had an IQ substanially less than 80, if that were so I would be educationally sub normal , which in its self would be a disability you were mocking, so no matter how you analyse it, you were mockinga disability
> 
> dont worry the mods only hand out warnings for e xpressing anti war sentiments,  mocking the afflicted  seems to be ok


70 is the score for disability in the states. The field of law my wife works in deals with this.


----------



## dvcochran (May 14, 2019)

jobo said:


> well you claimed I had an IQ substanially less than 80, if that were so I would be educationally sub normal , which in its self would be a disability you were mocking, so no matter how you analyse it, you were mockinga disability
> 
> dont worry the mods only hand out warnings for e xpressing anti war sentiments,  mocking the afflicted  seems to be ok


You are arguing about who has a disability yet you concerned that the forum mods are going to slap your hand? That is really strange.


----------



## jobo (May 14, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Hahahahahaha...now he's a victim.





dvcochran said:


> 70 is the score for disability in the states. The field of law my wife works in deals with this.



he said lessthan 80 which if my abacus  doesn't deceive me includes 70 .?


----------



## jobo (May 14, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> You are arguing about who has a disability yet you concerned that the forum mods are going to slap your hand? That is really strange.


theres a sub plot, concerning the conversation I've had with the site admin about the horrendous bias used in moderation. they invited me to bring comments I found offensive to their attention. clearly most people would find abuse of those with disabilities to be offensive, but then its seems very different morals apply on here


----------



## DocWard (May 14, 2019)

jobo said:


> theres a sub plot, concerning the conversation I've had with the site admin about the horrendous bias used in moderation. they invited me to bring comments I found offensive to their attention. clearly most people would find abuse of those with disabilities to be offensive, but then its seems very different morals apply on here



Ooooohhhhhhhh... A sub-plot...

So, out of curiosity, why is it that you throw the yellow flag (Being as you are from the UK, maybe I should say flash a yellow card) claiming you're offended by someone "suggesting" you suffer from a developmental disability, but you have ~zero~ problem with going on and on about your former obese girlfriend? That could certainly be offensive to others, particularly anyone who has struggled with weight issues of their own. It can also be considered a disability in its own right.

Since I have been active on the forum of late, you have thought nothing of insulting the work ethic and even the intelligence of others, among many other things, and have been generally rude and abusive in your dealings with others. When you are called on your commentary, you either attempt to redirect the conversation using fallacious arguments, work to attack the person making comment, or refuse to comment altogether.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 14, 2019)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS: *

Please stay on topic, and keep the conversation polite and respectful. Thank you.

William H
@kempodisciple
MartialTalk Moderator


----------



## jobo (May 14, 2019)

DocWard said:


> Ooooohhhhhhhh... A sub-plot...
> 
> So, out of curiosity, why is it that you throw the yellow flag (Being as you are from the UK, maybe I should say flash a yellow card) claiming you're offended by someone "suggesting" you suffer from a developmental disability, but you have ~zero~ problem with going on and on about your former obese girlfriend? That could certainly be offensive to others, particularly anyone who has struggled with weight issues of their own. It can also be considered a disability in its own right.
> 
> Since I have been active on the forum of late, you have thought nothing of insulting the work ethic and even the intelligence of others, among many other things, and have been generally rude and abusive in your dealings with others. When you are called on your commentary, you either attempt to redirect the conversation using fallacious arguments, work to attack the person making comment, or refuse to comment altogether.


why would me having an obese girl friend, be offensive to others, even those with a substantial weight problem, it should give they hope that 5hey can get an attractive slim partners as well, and of course, apart from rare cases, fatness is self inflicted, though they can be viewed as having a disability, it's rather like chopping your own foot off with an axe and complaining about it. or really it's not, it's like putting a bag of cement in a rucksack  and walking around all day, when you can just choose to stop carrying it

nb she not a former obese girl friend,  she a former girl friend who to my knowledge is still obese.

but I did get a warning for say my ex was fat. hens3 my quest for equality  of treatment


----------



## DocWard (May 14, 2019)

jobo said:


> why would me having an obese girl friend, be offensive to others, even those with a substantial weight problem, it should give they hope that 5hey can get an attractive slim partners as well...



I don't recall saying I, or anyone else, might find it offensive that you had an obese girlfriend. Instead, it was your comments regarding her that mattered. See if any of these ring a bell:

"why would I lie about an very fat girl friend, its not something to be proud of, I wouldn't take her out in public , as 1) people would laugh at me..."

"have you ever gone out with a girl the size of a double wardrobe ? if so I bet you hid her away, if not why not"

I won't go into the other things you describe which lead me to believe you were mentally abusive.

In that thread and others you also chose to attack, belittle and dismiss others, their efforts and their histories. The fact that you merely received a warning may well show restraint on the part of the admin.


----------



## jobo (May 14, 2019)

DocWard said:


> I don't recall saying I, or anyone else, might find it offensive that you had an obese girlfriend. Instead, it was your comments regarding her that mattered. See if any of these ring a bell:
> 
> "why would I lie about an very fat girl friend, its not something to be proud of, I wouldn't take her out in public , as 1) people would laugh at me..."
> 
> ...


this is nothing but a personal attack, I will report you for haressment, and inciting hate

nb, I see the quote function is to complicated for you, perhaps if you requested some assistance it may help


----------



## DocWard (May 14, 2019)

jobo said:


> this is nothing but a personal attack, I will report you for haressment, and inciting hate



If you believe it is warranted, then do so. However, it is neither personal, nor an attack. It is an analysis of your actions based upon your comments, past and present, and what I believe are the rational conclusions that can be reached from them. I will not apologize for nor retract my statements, as I believe they are accurate and based upon sound reasoning.

See, the thing is, I don't react well to people I perceive as bullying others. I will make every effort to reveal them through their own words and actions. It is a flaw of mine.


----------



## jobo (May 14, 2019)

DocWard said:


> If you believe it is warranted, then do so. However, it is neither personal, nor an attack. It is an analysis of your actions based upon your comments, past and present, and what I believe are the rational conclusions that can be reached from them. I will not apologize for nor retract my statements, as I believe they are accurate and based upon sound reasoning.
> 
> See, the thing is, I don't react well to people I perceive as bullying others. I will make every effort to reveal them through their own words and actions. It is a flaw of mine.


report for additional haressemen more personal attacks and bully me

nb I see you've work out how to use the quote function, it pleasing to see you took the advice to seek help on board


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 14, 2019)

Thread locked pending staff review.


----------

