# Practicing with a bigger guy



## Manny (Oct 29, 2009)

Well, I am not the average Méxican, I am a mix of italian/french with hispanic and I am tall and heavy, I'm 6 feet tall and  260 pounds and it's easy to me to do the kenpo techs on other of my classmates, however yestarday working with a Hungarian classmate  who is taller than I ( I guess he is 6' 4") and well built I was having a hard time trying to defend myself so I had to aplly more force to subdue him. It was nice to see that no matter I feel strong there are stronger men on the streets and I have to use more force to cope a bigger man.

How do you subdue a bigger fellow inside dojo?

Manny


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## dianhsuhe (Oct 29, 2009)

I don't...I run around the dojo until they get tired, then I kick them in the nuts.


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## Xinglu (Oct 29, 2009)

dianhsuhe said:


> I don't...I run around the dojo until they get tired, then I kick them in the nuts.



LOL, and what if the fox won't chase the rabbit :wink2:

Manny, personally, I'm five foot nothing. That makes just about every non-child opponent bigger than me.  I like fighting bug guys mostly because they think that power and force is everything.  They tend to forget about technique and speed.

Step one: establish a psychological advantage.
Step two: hit the openings they give you with speed, accuracy, and use those to re-establish number one (I like to wink at them... it aggravates them into doing things they normally wouldn't).  Remember, big men like to fight very differently then small guys (or average guys)  the real key is to get them to fight on your terms and not theirs.  If I play their game (the big guy fighting game), I lose.  But if they play mine... I win. :burp:


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 29, 2009)

Manny said:


> Well, I am not the average Méxican, I am a mix of italian/french with hispanic and I am tall and heavy, I'm 6 feet tall and 260 pounds and it's easy to me to do the kenpo techs on other of my classmates, however yestarday working with a Hungarian classmate who is taller than I ( I guess he is 6' 4") and well built I was having a hard time trying to defend myself so I had to aplly more force to subdue him. It was nice to see that no matter I feel strong there are stronger men on the streets and I have to use more force to cope a bigger man.
> 
> How do you subdue a bigger fellow inside dojo?
> 
> Manny


Start thinking like a small guy; because, you are. This is why it is so great to train with a lot of different body types. As for how to become stronger in the face of a larger opponent...      guideline. But you knew that.:yoda:
Sean


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## dianhsuhe (Oct 31, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> LOL, and what if the fox won't chase the rabbit :wink2:
> 
> 
> Step one: establish a psychological advantage.
> Step two: hit the openings they give you with speed, accuracy, and use those to re-establish number one (I like to wink at them... it aggravates them into doing things they normally wouldn't). Remember, big men like to fight very differently then small guys (or average guys) the real key is to get them to fight on your terms and not theirs. If I play their game (the big guy fighting game), I lose. But if they play mine... I win. :burp:


 
If the Fox won't chase me then I have no need to subdue him/her.  Avoidance is the greatest skill we can exercise.  

Daniel- Bring your sparring gear Monday.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Oct 31, 2009)

Manny said:


> Well, I am not the average Méxican, I am a mix of italian/french with hispanic and I am tall and heavy, I'm 6 feet tall and 260 pounds and it's easy to me to do the kenpo techs on other of my classmates, however yestarday working with a Hungarian classmate who is taller than I ( I guess he is 6' 4") and well built I was having a hard time trying to defend myself so I had to aplly more force to subdue him. It was nice to see that no matter I feel strong there are stronger men on the streets and I have to use more force to cope a bigger man.
> 
> How do you subdue a bigger fellow inside dojo?
> 
> Manny


 
Force is not the best answer.. It can be used but force is used in place of good technique.
The key with going against bigger guys is to make sure your angles of attack are correct, really get control of their HWD zones and control them, and when they are attacking you have to choose when to start your defense... againt bigger attackers you have a much smaller window to get things right, our techniques are all designed to capitalize on mistakes our opponent makes, so against bigger guys you need to try to get that first mistake to be bigger then usual and you have a better chance to succeed.

Consider yoruself lucky to have a bigger guy in your classes.. I am one of the biggest around.. 6'3" and 260.. I have to search out bigger opponents.
Take advantage of it, and have him gradually increase his resistance, and work on your control of his body..

Using force is going to get you tired... and that is a bad thing in a fight.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Oct 31, 2009)

dianhsuhe said:


> If the Fox won't chase me then I have no need to subdue him/her. Avoidance is the greatest skill we can exercise.
> 
> Daniel- Bring your sparring gear Monday.


 
For those talking about making them chase you... you have an issue... what if they are armed?
Do you really want to back up and give the opponent the chance to pull a gun and kill you?

Making space and running can be a good thing, but it can be the worst thing as well..

You have got to learn to examine the environment and the opponent and make the best decisions based on the entire picture. I highly recommend you do not use the cut and run manuever everytime a bigger guy faces you...


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## Xinglu (Oct 31, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> For those talking about making them chase you... you have an issue... what if they are armed?
> Do you really want to back up and give the opponent the chance to pull a gun and kill you?
> 
> Making space and running can be a good thing, but it can be the worst thing as well..
> ...



Ahem... the question was how to deal with a larger person in the dojo... like in sparring...  If you're having to deal with opponents armed with knives and guns during your dojo's sparring sessions perhaps you should consider another studio....


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## MJS (Oct 31, 2009)

Manny said:


> Well, I am not the average Méxican, I am a mix of italian/french with hispanic and I am tall and heavy, I'm 6 feet tall and 260 pounds and it's easy to me to do the kenpo techs on other of my classmates, however yestarday working with a Hungarian classmate who is taller than I ( I guess he is 6' 4") and well built I was having a hard time trying to defend myself so I had to aplly more force to subdue him. It was nice to see that no matter I feel strong there are stronger men on the streets and I have to use more force to cope a bigger man.
> 
> How do you subdue a bigger fellow inside dojo?
> 
> Manny


 
With bigger people you will notice that you do have to adapt whatever it is you're doing, to that person.  Sometimes you will have to go a bit harder as well.  Nothing wrong with some contact in the dojo.


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## Sigung86 (Nov 1, 2009)

61 years old... 5' 11.5" tall.  230 pounds of fighting fury... I still think gun.


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## dianhsuhe (Nov 1, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> For those talking about making them chase you... you have an issue... what if they are armed?
> Do you really want to back up and give the opponent the chance to pull a gun and kill you?
> 
> Making space and running can be a good thing, but it can be the worst thing as well..
> ...


 
Dave, you missed the humor train...again!  You seem so serious...did you read the whole thread?  We have "an issue"? LOL

If they are armed then I run in a zig-zag pattern until they run out of ammo then I come back and kick 'em in the nuts..

As it happens I do not have to, "learn to examine the environment and the opponent and make the best decisions based on the entire picture".  I might because it is a good idea but not simply because you mentioned it..LOL


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## dianhsuhe (Nov 1, 2009)

6'3" and 260lbs.?  I can definitely outrun you then...Even whilst zig-zagging!  Even if you are wearing one of those low-drag sleeveless shirts!

I will continue to stay light-hearted but it is worth mentioning that your "assertiveness" is annoying.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Nov 1, 2009)

dianhsuhe said:


> 6'3" and 260lbs.? I can definitely outrun you then...Even whilst zig-zagging! Even if you are wearing one of those low-drag sleeveless shirts!
> 
> I will continue to stay light-hearted but it is worth mentioning that your "assertiveness" is annoying.


 
I would be willing to take that Bet about the outrunning lol.. we should really get together and play a bit, since we both are in San Diego... and I mean that as written.. you say you and Jason Gonzalez are friends, call him and ask him about me.. he will back my comment that I can be taken at my word on that.

Also if the comment was about how to handle a big man in the dojo, I would think the point is trying to learn how to handle it in the streets.. running as the go to plan can get you into trouble and I was pointing it out..

regardless of how humurous you want to be, the point is I take self defense serious, because to many schools and clowns out there don't, they teach crap to their students.. including the whole zig zagging until the opponent runs out of bullets and then going to kick them in the nuts. You may have been joking, but there are people that teach similar thoughts to that...lol

I am assertive only about that which I know to be true.
If you think I am wrong then please lets discuss it, but dont try to cover up your comments as me being overly assertive, and you just being humorous, thats a copout and avoiding addressing the comments all together.

Once again I would really love to see you outrun me, or any large athletic opponent, over a short a distance when we are engaged in a confrontation, I simply can't see that happening in the vast majority of cases, especially if you have to backpedal, or sidestep to try to get away from the confrontation.... If you don't believe me try it out..

I will admit however that I completely missed your obvious humor in your post to Manny... doing multiple things, and reading your post as written, combined with all the similar comments I have heard from people led to my comments...


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## Xinglu (Nov 1, 2009)

Don't make me use my force choke... you can't outrun the force :wink:


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## dianhsuhe (Nov 1, 2009)

Every once in awhile I like to joke a bit on the forums, the zig-zag is clearly a reference to that will ferrel movie where he is running away from a dinosaur (he called it a serpentine pattern I think).

I am sure that "Manny" knew I was kidding about running around and the kick in the nuts.

I have a sense of humor, maybe it is a fault...

I have not seen Jason in years, he could probably attest to my running speed but not much else.

Jamey


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## Xinglu (Nov 1, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Also if the comment was about how to handle a big man in the dojo, I would think the point is trying to learn how to handle it in the streets..



Before, I issue any form of response to this, let me clarify with a few questions.

So you train for real fights in your dojo and you don't "spar" like "lesser dojo's and schools"? No pads... on hard ground... obstacles on the floor, improvised weapons laying around... live weapons and full contact?

Do you allow eye gouging? 
Biting? 
Throat shots?
Do you forgo cups and all other safety equipment (because you won't have those on the street)?

Do you really think the sole purpose of sparing it to train for a street fight?


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## LuckyKBoxer (Nov 1, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Before, I issue any form of response to this, let me clarify with a few questions.
> 
> So you train for real fights in your dojo and you don't "spar" like "lesser dojo's and schools"? No pads... on hard ground... obstacles on the floor, improvised weapons laying around... live weapons and full contact?
> 
> ...


 
Do you want a ridiculous answer to your ridiculous question?

While many of those things are not practiced, they are pointed out. We do Kenpo, we work on controlling our opponent in a confrontation so that we eliminate their ability to eye gouge, bite, strike our throats, kick us in the nuts in any confrontation.

I do not wear a cup unless we are doing drills that I have to allow my partner to strike my groin.. I do not spar with a cup.. We do recommend our students do it, and I can not remember any tournament that allowed the option to not wear one.

Unless I missed the point of the kenpo forum, that this was posted into, then I have to say my answer was from a kenpo viewpoint.. at least the American Kenpo I study. Other arts might have different answers... I am giving the answer from a Kenpo viewpoint, not Tae Kwon Do, or another art.

I never said anything about other schools being lesser schools or dojos.. once again a paranoid person makes assumptions about something instead of asking questions so they feel superior, or so they can demean the person they are talking to. Get a grip on reality pal.... sure we point spar, sure we do touch only sparring drills.... we do light contact sparring drills.. and we do full contact sparring drills... we do random attacker drills, and we do drills where the "bad guys" have hidden weapons, including clubs, knifes and guns... fake of course..we do techniques and work on our abilities to manipulate our opponents body to control them so they are unable to do the things you describe... is it fullproof? Of course not, nobody except those dedicating their full time to the study will ever come close to perfecting kenpo, and I have yet to see anyone who has perfected it even spending full time... but thats the goal.. to defend onesself in a real confrontation, against whatever possible scenario.. Choosing to run everytime is a bad choice as a first go to choice.. I never said its not a choice, just that it can be an issue in a real encounter if any one of several scenarios happen to be true.

I can appreciate the humor.. but I thought the question was a serious one, from someone wanting a serious response.. land of the lost was funny... Will was funny... the comment was funny... Never said it wasn't... I just gave a realistic answer... whats so wrong with that?


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## Xinglu (Nov 2, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Do you want a ridiculous answer to your ridiculous question?


Sure, why not?  But I asked seven questions, so perhaps seven ridiculous answers would be in order?



LuckyKBoxer said:


> While many of those things are not practiced, they are pointed out. We do Kenpo, we work on controlling our opponent in a confrontation so that we eliminate their ability to eye gouge, bite, strike our throats, kick us in the nuts in any confrontation.  I do not wear a cup unless we are doing drills that I have to allow my partner to strike my groin.. I do not spar with a cup.. We do recommend our students do it, and I can not remember any tournament that allowed the option to not wear one.


 Okay...



LuckyKBoxer said:


> Unless I missed the point of the kenpo forum, that this was posted into, then I have to say my answer was from a kenpo viewpoint.. at least the American Kenpo I study. Other arts might have different answers... I am giving the answer from a Kenpo viewpoint, not Tae Kwon Do, or another art.


 Being that we are in a Kenpo forum, I would have hoped that you would give you interpretation of a kenpo answer.  In fact, everyone here gave an answer from a kenpo stand point, even the kenpoka who answered with levity. So, can you show me where anyone said otherwise?  Furthermore, will Kara-Ho give the same answer as EPAK? or as SKK?  I doubt it.  Each system of Kenpo has different approaches to everything, to me that is the beauty of it.  There is no black and white answer. Not even in Kenpo.  Heck, not even in EPAK, because it is all relative to the practitioner and what they bring to the table.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I never said anything about other schools being lesser schools or dojos.. once again a paranoid person makes assumptions about something instead of asking questions so they feel superior, or so they can demean the person they are talking to. Get a grip on reality pal....


 And I'm sure that it's your interpretation of reality that you want me to grip onto... :wink: I asked questions, how did they demean you? However, you demean me by labels (such as paranoid) and by implication: unrealistic (because I don't have that grip you seem to want me to have) and ridiculous (because, in your opinion, I ask ridiculous things).

It's cool, I'm a big boy and don't take it personally, but in the future, it will help your argument to drop the _ad hominem_ elements.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> sure we point spar, sure we do touch only sparring drills.... we do light contact sparring drills.. and we do full contact sparring drills... we do random attacker drills, and we do drills where the "bad guys" have hidden weapons, including clubs, knifes and guns... fake of course..we do techniques and work on our abilities to manipulate our opponents body to control them so they are unable to do the things you describe... is it fullproof? Of course not, nobody except those dedicating their full time to the study will ever come close to perfecting kenpo, and I have yet to see anyone who has perfected it even spending full time... but thats the goal.. to defend onesself in a real confrontation, against whatever possible scenario.. Choosing to run everytime is a bad choice as a first go to choice.. I never said its not a choice, just that it can be an issue in a real encounter if any one of several scenarios happen to be true.


This is what I was looking for.  Thank you.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I can appreciate the humor.. but I thought the question was a serious one, from someone wanting a serious response.. land of the lost was funny... Will was funny... the comment was funny... Never said it wasn't... I just gave a realistic answer... whats so wrong with that?


I never said you didn't appreciate it, nor did I ever imply you didn't. Likewise, I never speculated or implied anything as to how funny you found anything about anything.

I never even criticized or asked questions about your answer to the OP.  I asked questions about something you said in response to me pointing out that Manny's question related to "in the dojo." Clearly, that provoked you, and that's fine. But let's hang me for things I actually said and did, not the other disagreements you may or may not have with other posters.

So to be clear, my questions had nothing to do with your initial response to the OP, how funny you thought anything was, if you can appreciate anything, or as to weather or not kenpo or non kenpo answers were given. They had everything to do with your response, which I quoted before asking. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Manny (Nov 3, 2009)

dianhsuhe said:


> Every once in awhile I like to joke a bit on the forums, the zig-zag is clearly a reference to that will ferrel movie where he is running away from a dinosaur (he called it a serpentine pattern I think).
> 
> I am sure that "Manny" knew I was kidding about running around and the kick in the nuts.
> 
> ...


 
Yes I knew you were kidding, but it makes sense on the street runing around the BIG gay and kick him in the nuts.

I have a sense of humor too, jejejejeje.

Manny


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## still learning (Nov 3, 2009)

Hello,  When facing bigger guys?  ....on the streets...become the "cat" and fight like one....

Seen lots of dogs running away too...from a cat that is cornor....
(note: the cats sometimes lose too...)

 Street fights has... NO rules....do what one must to survive...let the eyes have it!

Aloha,   ... Biting works too.....snacks anyone?


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 4, 2009)

If you expect to rely on eye gouges or the like, you have already lost.
Sean


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## still learning (Nov 4, 2009)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you expect to rely on eye gouges or the like, you have already lost.
> Sean


 
Hello, OK ..We lost...What do you recommend? 

Aloha, 

..how come tournament rules do not allow eye pokeing and gouges? ....guessing not effective? ...it a good thing we learn other things too...spitting and biting...slapping is good too..

What did one eye, say to the other eye? ...between you and me? something "smells"..


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 4, 2009)

Being a smaller guy myself, I constantly train with people bigger and stonger than myself, and I can tell you from experiance that it is not simply a matter of applying more force/strength. Knowing the right angels, and understanding momentum has helped me make up for my smaller stature. Also, being fast as hell helps!


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 5, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, OK ..We lost...What do you recommend?
> 
> Aloha,
> 
> ...


Its just that eye gouges are a pipe dream. At least 90% of martial arts application is non lethal crap that occurs from day to day. And you go to jail for puting people eyes out. Lets just try learning the bigger picture.
Sean


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## still learning (Nov 5, 2009)

Touch Of Death said:


> Its just that eye gouges are a pipe dream. At least 90% of martial arts application is non lethal crap that occurs from day to day. And you go to jail for puting people eyes out. Lets just try learning the bigger picture.
> Sean


 
Hello, Please explain?  " ..lets just try learning the bigger picture?"...

Need "eye"'s to see the bigger picture?  ....unless you poking'em...

Eye gouging is one technique...raking the eyes is another technique..that scatches the outer surface..which can heal...in time..

Raking one eyes...will give you a chance to escape or fight back...?

Touch of Death?  ...one touch we die?  ...eye ball touching..is it the same..?

Sorry just having fun here....

Everyone knows there are techniques ...which one has to choose NOT to use...and Know when to use those to save a life or your own life...

...and take the tarkets...when it becomes available too....

Never limit one self to one tarket ...to save one self or saving others....  
Eyes..is just another tarket..this one believes...can be very effective...

A woman get throw down and jump by a rapist...her hands can reach his face?    ...(A).; should she hug him?  (B)....kiss him?  ...or (C)gouge his eyes?

My Daughter does High School Wrestling and Judo....only 106lbs....and does not want to learn ""Kempo" our style...

What technique do you think I tell her the most of.....(A) is for me....hope you (C) the answers.....

Aloha,   ....seeing is believing...or NOT seeing?  .....UM?   

PS:  Just having fun....& and practicing the the 7 deadly techniques...
and learning about the Big Picture too...in HID's


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## still learning (Nov 6, 2009)

Hello,  Final fiqure it out?  by "Touch of Death".

LETS JUST TRY LEARNING THE BIGGER PICTURE....meaning...

"To look at it with Bigger Eyes...."   

Aloha,

Thanks...still learning..


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 10, 2009)

I think learning to get off the line of attack and circling a lager opponent is more usefull than expecting to end the fight with and eye poke or gouge. 
Sean


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## still learning (Nov 10, 2009)

Touch Of Death said:


> I think learning to get off the line of attack and circling a lager opponent is more usefull than expecting to end the fight with and eye poke or gouge.
> Sean


 
Hello, Avoidance is always a good choice and being out line of attack or circling is a good idea...

Can we be out of line of attack or go in circles for "ever"?  

..than we need to decide? ...fight or flee?   if we run? ...must run faster and farther..

...if we decide to "fight" ?  ...use what we know to end any confrontations...the "eyes" ...can be the nose...can be the throat,..can be knees, can be the groin....or those "eyes" ..two tarkets here..

Aloha,  ...MY first choice ...is the eyes!  ...when can?

One must see to succeed...take away the sights? ...makes things more easy...

I am sure when sparring someone always gets hit in the eyes...and must Stop!   ..see it works


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 13, 2009)

Stop his attitude.
Sean


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm 5'4", so I'm shorter than almost everyone in my dojo. I regularly spar with men 6' and over, and one of my sparring partners is 6'6" and 260 lbs. So I am always interested in advice on how to neutralize a height advantage. 

Clearly, in EPAK (and I assume other styles of kenpo) we are given techniques which allow us to cancel the height zone of a larger attacker. Knee shots, groin shots, sweeps, etc...all are good if your attacker is 1) not a trained MA and 2) committed to an attack that you've been trained to deal with (eg. right step through punch). But it's a different story when you are squared up with a guy who is trained and wanting to go toe to toe (and this difference has been discussed repeatedly in other threads). In this case, it becomes a huge challenge for a smaller person to overcome the natural advantage of more mass and greater reach that the larger opponent possesses.

I'm a yellow belt, so I'm a raw beginner. But I'm slowly starting to add some skills to my repertoire that I can rely on while sparring. Two things I've started using with really big opponents are low leg kicks ( I try to combine these with punching combos but I still suck at that), and getting inside his reach, latching onto him, and throwing knees. If he bear hugs me then I stomp feet and bite and reach down and squeeze that groin.

Additional advice would be appreciated!!


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## still learning (Nov 14, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> I'm 5'4", so I'm shorter than almost everyone in my dojo. I regularly spar with men 6' and over, and one of my sparring partners is 6'6" and 260 lbs. So I am always interested in advice on how to neutralize a height advantage.
> 
> Clearly, in EPAK (and I assume other styles of kenpo) we are given techniques which allow us to cancel the height zone of a larger attacker. Knee shots, groin shots, sweeps, etc...all are good if your attacker is 1) not a trained MA and 2) committed to an attack that you've been trained to deal with (eg. right step through punch). But it's a different story when you are squared up with a guy who is trained and wanting to go toe to toe (and this difference has been discussed repeatedly in other threads). In this case, it becomes a huge challenge for a smaller person to overcome the natural advantage of more mass and greater reach that the larger opponent possesses.
> 
> ...


 
Hello, On the streets..if you are wearing shoes? ....kicking someone in the shins? ....usually will hurt your attacker...

Can be done fast and unseen...easy to do low kicks...then down them...stomp on the ankles and run...approx 42 bones in the foot...break a few...gives you a running advantages..

Aloha,

...If up close..perfer "side of the shoe" rake method... (steel toe shoes helps too) ..and still poke them in the eyes too....Ha! Ha!  ...deadly touching..UM!


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 18, 2009)

Don't over-reach or lean. Fight your fight at your level and don't expose your self to get a head shot. Learn to get and stay off the line of attack.
Sean


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Nov 18, 2009)

Touch Of Death said:


> Don't over-reach or lean. Fight your fight at your level and don't expose your self to get a head shot. Learn to get and stay off the line of attack.
> Sean


 
Good advice. I'm bad about over-reaching and leaning in, because my reach is so limited and I want to press an attack but I don't want to get my head punched. Last week I hunkered down a bit and focused on lower body and groin shots, which helped.


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