# TSD vs TKD stances



## karatekid1975 (Sep 6, 2002)

Hiya all.

I've done Tang Soo Do. Now I do TKD. Besides the forms, the major difference between the two are the stances. Tang Soo Do has deep stances. TKD has more up-right stances. I still use my deep stances at times. I either get "told" about it ( for having my stances too deep), and others say it looks good in forms. With that said, I'm getting mixed signals. Should I use the more up-right stances for TKD or no? Comments?


----------



## fissure (Sep 6, 2002)

First you must understand the difference between deep and long.
TSD and Shotokan have, over the last 15 yrs or so, lenghtened their stances to almost silly proportions.It is common to see front stances that that are so *long* that the rear foot can no longer be kept flat on the floor.
A deep stance is another matter. In a *deep* stance the length is the traditional distance.However the knees are bent more, dropping the stance down creating depth.This is very hard on the muscles and many have trouble with it, the easy answer is to lenghten the stance giving the impression of depth.
Compounding the problem you are having is the lack of depth most TKD dojang allow to pass as correct form.
In my opinion deep is good, and thats what I do!But as I have stated to you before, you are playing the role of student so you don't have the freedom that I do.Having said that, I find it hard to beleive any instructor would have too big a problem with a student making thier training *harder* on themselves!


----------



## karatekid1975 (Sep 6, 2002)

You do have a point there, fissure  I have a bad habbit ( urrrr... I wouldn't say bad) of using TSD techniques in TKD a lot, still. Deep stances is one. Hand techs during sparring is another (which is a big no no in WTF sparring). I miss TSD, but I wanna do good (or try) in TKD, so I'm trying to find a "happy medium".


----------



## MartialArtist (Sep 8, 2002)

In my training in TKD, we have both deep stances and upright stances.  It isn't limited to art really, maybe your school just uses this and that.

For deeper stances, you can get more power and more stability.  Upright, you are faster and more agile.


----------



## Kong (Sep 8, 2002)

I train itf style hyung with a very traditional master, and he always emphazises deep and strong stances. Most of the high or "standing" stances come from wtf style poomse. I like to train both as much as time allows.


----------



## Shinzu (Oct 4, 2002)

i'm not too familiar with TKD but i think that if your instructor requests you to perform a stance a certain way you should do what he asks.  i know it is very hard to re-train your body to do things differently.

when i began TSD i needed to re-train my body from shotokan.  then when i switched TSD schools, i needed to re-train my body again to perform the moves how my current instructor required me to.  it is definitely a pain in the a$$.  all in all everything you learn makes you a better martial artist.  i'm sure your instructor know this and sees how much effort you put into your training.  i don't think that he thinks you are doing anything wrong, i just think he wants everyone on the same page.


----------



## karatekid1975 (Oct 6, 2002)

Good point, Shinzu. I guess if I switched to another TKD dojang that taught WTF TKD (I do WTF TKD), the instructor would teach it different, eventhough it's the same art, right?


----------



## tshadowchaser (Oct 6, 2002)

TKD stances have had a wide range of dept and distance.  When I studied it back in the early 70's our stances where extremly low and long. Other Tkd schools had higher and shorter stances, while some of the TSD schools had even higher stances back then.  So there has been a evolution in both systems and it also depends on the instructors.
Shadow


----------



## Shinzu (Oct 6, 2002)

yeah, it's all gonna depend on the instructor.  even if it is the same style.  when i studied kung fu for a while the instructors front stance was different in that he taught you to angle your front foot 45 degrees so your knee would protect your groin.

talk about re aranging everything you learned... that was very hard.

just do you best


----------



## karatekid1975 (Oct 6, 2002)

Thanks Shinzu   And thanks Tshadow for the info


----------



## Shinzu (Oct 7, 2002)

anytime!!!


----------



## master dave (Dec 3, 2002)

there are differences in tang soo do stances. we do have the long stance. tkd uses much shorter stances which are quicker for tournament and sport karate but by speed you lack power. in a sport situation you want a point quick and get out of there! its not a real life threatining situation your faced with. let me explain the tang soo do deep stance! has your car ever ran out of gas? have you ever helped push a car ? go over to the wall, pretend its a car and you need to push it to the curb! now look at your stance, you cant put your entire body into an attack from a short stance! you can punch from a short stance! and punch,and punch and punch! but from the tsd long or deep stance one punch is all you need the power behind the punch is the same power and force as pushing a car! the fight is over! no points awarded! this is real life! life is not a game or spectator sport.

                 MASTER ZACKER/ TANG SOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## karatekid1975 (Dec 3, 2002)

Hiya Dave.

I did TSD and I loved it. I like the deeper stances better, but I now know that the TKD stance is for sport


----------



## TkdWarrior (Dec 3, 2002)

i havn't done TSD but i hav done deeeeep i mean way deep stances in Taichi(my teacher called it conditioning of legs) so they both hav it's purposes... deep stances gives u idea about good root, power generation n high stance gives u idea about mobility, stability while moving, 
in TKD we do we hav very high stances(ie for horse riding or sitting stance the distance b/w legs is about 1.5 shoulder) this gives u very good mobility. L stance or cat stance is same way very high...

<you cant put your entire body into an attack from a short stance! you can punch from a short stance! >
Master Dave in TKD basics the first stance is standing stance n even from there TKD teaches to punch IMO it's not about deep stance generate power, proper body mechanics that generate, deep stances just facilate them.
power is generated from legs controlled by waist n used by extremeties this is simple theory. it works with uprite stance
for ex if u watch boxer who hav highest stance but when they punch they hav best punch ever found...they even generate lots of power.

Laurie when u r learning TKD then u should be learning TKD not TSD, i know TSD is ur first art n u like it very much but this way u'll not be able to learn TKD rite. i hav to stop thinking about MT n learn TKD when i started TKD, but don't forget wat u hav learnt in TSD, unforutnately there's no "happy medium". even i hate to unlearn something learnt in TKD for taichi...
-TkdWarrior-


----------



## TkdWarrior (Dec 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by karatekid1975 _
> *, but I now know that the TKD stance is for sport  *


ah i hate to disagree with this...it's u who'll hav to use...chances r that u'll hav to learn TKD for life then wat u'll do? it's a decent MA not a sport... it depends how to want to use it...use i as a sport or MA...think again, think wise
My Advice practice both styles of stance(deepers n higher) they hav their places...i do both
-TkdWarrior-


----------



## fissure (Dec 4, 2002)

Master Dave, I fully understand the power aspect of TSD stances. But I don't believe I will ever see a TSD player drop into a full front stance in a street situation.
Again I refer to the point I made in my first post, i.e., TSD (and its parent art Shotokan) have favored increasingly long stances over the last couple decades. As a Master, you have seen this change for yourself. In the same manner TKD has placed its interest on kicking tech., sacrificing deep stances along the way.
Again long as opposed to deep is always going to be a key issue. It is easy to make a stance low by increasing it's length. Unfortunately a long stance does little to increase the angle that ones joints are positioned at, and it is this angle that builds tension and power in movement.
Real life, as you say, is far removed from the dojang - TKD or TSD.


----------



## Shinzu (Mar 1, 2003)

deep stances were not intended to be long.  this defeates the purpose.  a deep stance is supposed to increase your balance and your center of gravity..  a long stance may be good in certain situations but it has a tendency to leave you more open and off centered.


----------



## Andi (Apr 12, 2003)

> TSD (and its parent art Shotokan) have favored increasingly long stances over the last couple decades.



Just how long have they evolved to in TSD? I do TKD, and our walking/front stance is 1.5 shoulder widths long.  My mate who did Hapkido before TKD had a similar problem with the shorter TKD stances.

Having said that, I do tend to make my stances longer than they should be.....


----------



## WaterCircleHarmony (May 6, 2003)

> Just how long have they evolved to in TSD? I do TKD, and our walking/front stance is 1.5 shoulder widths long. My mate who did Hapkido before TKD had a similar problem with the shorter TKD stances.



You always beat me to the threads i read!

Anyway, good point about the TKD stances. In ITF TKD aren't all stances meant to have a set form of dimensions like Andi says or more accurately as is taught by ITF?

I was also told in a WTF class that the stances are more upright so that the kicks can be done from a natural walking movement.

How much do you lot agree with this?


----------



## Shinzu (May 6, 2003)

the fact is that every association is going to do things a bit different in the dojang, but on the street you have to do what works for you.  so practicing kicks without deep stances has it's advantages also.  the best way to adapt to things is to train many different ways with the same techniques.

it just makes you the better in the end!


----------



## Zepp (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shinzu _
> *the fact is that every association is going to do things a bit different in the dojang, but on the street you have to do what works for you.  so practicing kicks without deep stances has it's advantages also.  the best way to adapt to things is to train many different ways with the same techniques.
> 
> it just makes you the better in the end! *



Amen brother!


----------



## BrandiJo (Oct 6, 2004)

in my TKD class they stress deep and long stances ...im constantly getting told to fix mine so im not sure maybe its just your school or something???(or maybe my school? )


----------



## TigerWoman (Oct 6, 2004)

In our school, WTF style TKD, Taeguek forms, we learn all stances. The first form we use, Key Bong Hyung is all long stances.  Long and deep, meaning body low, front leg/knee bent with the lower half of the leg perpendicular to the floor, feet l-1/2 shoulders apart, back leg straight with the knee locked, heel down and foot angled 45°, weight mostly on the front leg.  From that position, it is required to step forward into another of the same stance and punch, then transfer back to the hind foot without the foot coming down pivot and go into the opposite side long stance.  This is not easy for the beginner but is very important to learn early to gain strength, balance, and agility, while learning the correct form. BTW, this is _not_ a fighting form, not used for sparring, only for poomse.

Also, the walking stance is shorter and is the same length as if you are walking normally. Not much walking stance after Taeguek#4. Most of the Taegueks have a combination of stances includiing cat stance, back stance and horseback stance. A few have only long stances which involve kicking from a long deep stance into the kick- front, round and side, slowly becoming more difficult as higher kicks and pivots are required.  TW


----------



## Mark Jorgensen (Oct 8, 2004)

I agree that a differentiation needs to be made between length and depth...

I teach TSD, and I can't tell you how often I've seen people mistake one for the other.  deep stances are important for the reasons mentioned, but lengthening stance too much in an attempt to get depth leaves you unbalanced, unstable, and immobile.

I blame it on competition forms to be honest.  I can't tell you how often I've seen ridiculously long stances, to the point that the practitioner has to readjust before theycan even move...they end up displaying a form that has stances of many different lengths and depths, with poor posture and body mechanics, and very rarely are able to finish teh form in the same place they began it.

I actually deduct points for this, because I think it displays a lack of understanding in regards to stance...but I'm amazed at the number of people who encourage it and thinkit looks good...

Ideally, I think all stances ought to be about the same length and depth...this maximizes mobility, ability to transition from one stance to the next, and power in delivery of technique.

It sees like the biggest victim is front stance...which is often misunderstood to begin with, but I digress....

I'm very tired of seeing front stance so long and off balanced that the student can't even move without readjusting, and can be tipped over with one finger...I'm tired of seeing horse riding stances with backsides sticking out....it really has become a problem, but it's oneinstructors should be fixing, not encouraging...


----------



## BrandiJo (Oct 8, 2004)

my insturctor is always on my case about my stances and it sounds like they agree with you UGH i do way to many pushups for them


----------



## Miles (Oct 15, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> In our school, WTF style TKD, Taeguek forms, we learn all stances. ....
> 
> Also, the walking stance is shorter and is the same length as if you are walking normally. Not much walking stance after Taeguek#4. Most of the Taegueks have a combination of stances includiing cat stance, back stance and horseback stance. A few have only long stances which involve kicking from a long deep stance into the kick- front, round and side, slowly becoming more difficult as higher kicks and pivots are required. TW


TW, you are correct that the walking stance is simply the length of a step.  And the front stance (ap kubi) is only 1/2 step longer than walking stance (ap seogi).  It really is not a very deep stance at all.  Some of the folks have said that stances vary from TKD school to TKD school-this should not be the case if they are adhering to the Kukkiwon's standards.

Miles


----------



## Hwoarang_tkd26 (Oct 16, 2004)

karatekid1975 said:
			
		

> Hiya Dave.
> 
> I like the deeper stances better, but I now know that the TKD stance is for sport


I think that I must dissagree with this as well.
IMO, short stances work the best for kicking, I have tryed kicking in a deep stance and it just simply doesn't feel right.
I can see how a deep stance will generate more power for punching or other hand techniques, but just like others have said in this forum: everything has it's place and it's up to you to figure out when to use it and what works for you.
But let me tell you how I would use both stances if it were "real life" as others have mentioned it, first of all I must tell you my philosify on the stances:

Ok, the short stance IMO is best for speed (in general), but dont underestimate the short stance because there are certain techniques that can be thrown (if properly) from a short stance that can be "devestating"
Then the deep stance IMO is best for power, but from what I can see the more power that is generated, the slower the technique is (in general).
So having said that, let me get back to the "real life" situation.
I would (personaly) start out in a short stance and hit my opponent/enemy/attacker with quick strikes just enough to "faze" them, then in the short amount of time they are trying to recover switch to deep stance and hit them with something hard enough to take them "out".

This is somewhat like a boxer, the boxer does quick jabs at his opponent then when the opponent is fazed, he will do an uppercut or some power strike to knock them out.
I Know that there are many out there that would argue against my philosify, bu this is just how I see it.

- Hwoarang_tkd26


----------



## Marginal (Oct 16, 2004)

If you've never really trained with deep stances, then it's hard to practice them for half an hour one day and the credibly claim that they're too slow.


----------



## Hwoarang_tkd26 (Oct 17, 2004)

Marginal said:
			
		

> If you've never really trained with deep stances, then it's hard to practice them for half an hour one day and the credibly claim that they're too slow.


hmm... somehow I sense that this post is sort of directed towards my last post on the thread, and if I am correct about this then let me say this much, I never said that the deep stances were "too slow", I only ment to bring out the idea that they are slower in comparison to short stances (in general). I apologize if anyone found my thread somewhat misleading from my original point that I was trying to make.
Yes you are correct, I dont regularly practice "deep stance", it's just that I believe what I see, and from what I have seen deep stances tend to be a little slower and a little more powerful (in general).


----------



## Marginal (Oct 18, 2004)

Nah. It applies equally to the idea that TKD is or should be solely defined by the Kukkiwon.


----------



## TigerWoman (Oct 18, 2004)

Hwoarang_tkd26 said:
			
		

> it's just that I believe what I see, and from what I have seen deep stances tend to be a little slower and a little more powerful (in general).



We practice deep stances quite a bit as a white-yellow-orange belt as that is the basis for most of the forms.  Once you have a practice of 30-40 minutes all long, deep stances, and especially when you haven't had much of that kind of practice, your muscles will be screaming.  Doing alot of that practice and kicking from that long stance shows alot of power because in order to do that, those muscles have to be developed.  And not only that, balance, coordination, agility to go from long stance to kick, transfer without touching to the opposite side long stance and then kick high, with power and hold the kicks. Those kicks are not supposed to be slow, they are snapped fast, but they are held at extension for a second.  Those that don't practice alot can't do it and it shows in testing and tournaments.  If a student can do that, developed through form, what can his kick do when delivered in normal fighting stance?  (fighting stance is not as deep, balanced or weight forward or back)  Well, it is much more powerful than those that didn't go to the effort of practicing the long stances.  

BTW, our long stance is shoulder length + 1/2 more apart - like a railroad track going vertically from your front to your back-between your legs. The length, how far your legs go out is approximately two walking stances-how far you would normally step.  The lower part of the forward leg is vertical at about 90° with the knee bent.  The rear leg is extended straight (knee not bent at all) with the heel on the floor. The weight is on the forward leg hence why is called the forward stance.  Try that and kick from it, go into another forward stance, then without putting your foot down transfer to the other side, forward stance in perfect form. It does take practice and all the other stuff I mentioned. TW


----------



## Miles (Oct 25, 2004)

Marginal said:
			
		

> Nah. It applies equally to the idea that TKD is or should be solely defined by the Kukkiwon.


What is TKD to you?

What role, if any, do you think the Kukkiwon serves in the promulgation and standardization of TKD?

Miles


----------



## DuneViking (Mar 10, 2005)

Our stances evolve over time of the student, as well as having evolved over the time of the art. From Um Uoon Kyu's Korean Tae Kwon Do Association of America, headed by E.B Sell in the early 70's, to our present organization-WMTKD, we learned what is commonly now called a front stance, as a square stance. To this day, I use the term, and when teaching students, I may gently push them from the side when it is too narrow, forcing them to take a step to regain stability, inevitably they step closer to a square rather than the long over-extended rectangle they started with. As the student progresses the size of the square shrinks a bit, until at dan rank it is slightly over shoulder width on a side for the most part. As for the walking stance, we simply shorten the square stance a bit more, and never lock the forward leg at the knee, for obvious reasons. 

Considering the back or rear stance, we may use longer deeper stances for "_tournament_" form preparation _only_. Fighting and self-defense are different. We stress approximately 1 to 1 1/2 the length of one's foot, with 80% of the weight on the rear leg, allowing the front foot to kick without the telegraphic weight shifting. 

The fighting stance is as the rear stance above. The Side stance may vary a bit from 2x to 1 1/2 times shoulder length.

Finally, we do not blindly follow WTF nor Kukkiwon styles, but temper things with practicality.


----------



## karatekid1975 (Mar 11, 2005)

Wow! This thread is two years old and still going LOL. I never told anyone how I fixed the problem.

Anyways, I asked my instructor about the stances, and he basically explained them like DuneViking did. I practice it this way now, because that's how I am being taught. It's not bad as I thought it would be


----------



## DuneViking (Mar 11, 2005)

karatekid1975 said:
			
		

> Wow! This thread is two years old and still going LOL. I never told anyone how I fixed the problem.
> 
> Anyways, I asked my instructor about the stances, and he basically explained them like DuneViking did. I practice it this way now, because that's how I am being taught. It's not bad as I thought it would be


Great, glad to hear your issue is resolved!


----------



## MichiganTKD (Mar 13, 2005)

From white belt to 1st Dan, our stances are very similar to Tang Soo Do or older style Tae Kwon Do. We do not practice walking stance outside of free fighting or basic kicking. Basics use traditional stances. The reason is that Tae Kwon Do basics, from the stances up to how you execute technique, are designed to strengthen your body from the ground up. Walking stances are great for speed and mobility, but they will not make your legs and hips strong.
Even after black belt, we do not use walking stances in forms unless it specifically calls for it. The stances remain traditional.


----------



## karatekid1975 (Mar 13, 2005)

I'm going to hi-jack my own thread hehehehe.

Anyways, what forms you do, MichiganTKD? I'm just asking, because we do the taegeuk forms and there are a lot of walking stances in those forms. At first, it was hard for me to get used to (coming from TSD and all).


----------

