# The war on rank



## JTKenpo (Nov 13, 2008)

When asked about rank most martial artists will say that rank doesn't matter it is the skill of the student/instructor whom ever.  Yet all the boards, lots of the threads and many of the posts all revolve around somebody being upset that so and so has this rank from that person or an honorary rank from such and such organization or "I have been in the arts twice as long as that guy over there with 28 stripes on his belt".

So......if its not what its all about and no one should care about rank why are we all so wrapped up in it?

someone please splain to me.


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## Drac (Nov 13, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> When asked about rank most martial artists will say that rank doesn't matter it is the skill of the student/instructor whom ever. Yet all the boards, lots of the threads and many of the posts all revolve around somebody being upset that so and so has this rank from that person or an honorary rank from such and such organization or "I have been in the arts twice as long as that guy over there with 28 stripes on his belt".
> 
> So......if its not what its all about and no one should care about rank why are we all so wrapped up in it?
> 
> someone please splain to me.


 
If someones explains it to you *PLEASE* forward a copy to me...I have *NEVER* understood the whole battle of ranks...


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## Carol (Nov 13, 2008)

Because rank does matter.

It doesn't mean everything.  It doesn't mean more is better than less. But, it does matter.


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## hkfuie (Nov 13, 2008)

People usually really, really want things to be "fair."  But it ain't like that in the martial arts.  It's not all equal and it's not all fair.  And alot of the talk in martial arts is pure hot air.

Also, people like to compare themselves to others and gauge where they are.  I think the fact that there is no absolute way of telling where you are in the grand scheme of martial arts skill and knowledge drives some of us really, really crazy. 

Some people will have a bazillion stripes and they just have a bazillion stripes.  I'm never gonna have a bazillion stripes.  

Also, some people get really cool titles and make people bow to them and require blind faith and following.  And I ain't never gonna have that, either.  

I am sooooo jealous.  I better stop writing before I just give it all up and QUIT!


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## Carol (Nov 13, 2008)

hkfuie said:


> People usually really, really want things to be "fair."  But it ain't like that in the martial arts.  It's not all equal and it's not all fair.  And alot of the talk in martial arts is pure hot air.
> 
> Also, people like to compare themselves to others and gauge where they are.  I think the fact that there is no absolute way of telling where you are in the grand scheme of martial arts skill and knowledge drives some of us really, really crazy.
> 
> ...



Or, just hit the dojo on the way home and enjoy the adrenaline rush which will make having a bazillion stripes and blind-faith followers seem...irrelevant


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## morph4me (Nov 13, 2008)

Rank is important to some people, not important to others, and others think it makes them seem profound to say rank isn't important when it's all they think about, depends on their individual ego and need to be recognized for their accomplishments. To each his own.


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## JadeDragon3 (Nov 13, 2008)

I think rank & lineage is a big deal.  Rank is a big deal because if you are learning from a 1st degree black belt you aren't going to go very far in that system before your going to have to find a new teacher.  If your studying under a 7th degree black belt your obviously going to be able to go further in that system.  I think lineage is just as inportant as rank too.


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## KELLYG (Nov 13, 2008)

So does rank matter.  In some ways yes and in some ways no.

I have seen people that have a high rank and know, by watching them preform, that they  are not up to par with the belt that they have on. 
Some people earn rank by being in a system long enough to progress due to, time in, but there skill set is lacking.   I have seen some students that I train with and know they have a stronger skill set than those that out rank them. 

 I have always felt that my skills are not up to what my current belt level. There has always been a growing into the new rank period of time.  This is the way that I have felt thru each belt level from white belt up!!  
I also feel that today I am a little better than yesterday and that tomorrow I will be better than the day before.  And so on and so on and so on. Trust me I have earned each belt/rank that I have worn, and wear them with pride, but still strive to continue to improve. I also know that I can learn from anyone regardless of rank if I see that they have a better understanding of something than I do and I am not ashamed to ask for help. 

For the most part it just depends what you are training for cloth or knowledge?


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## Nomad (Nov 13, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> lots of the threads and many of the posts all revolve around somebody being upset that so and so has this rank from that person or an honorary rank from such and such organization or "I have been in the arts twice as long as that guy over there with 28 stripes on his belt".


 
Intellectually, most of us do understand that there is no standardized system, and that the kid down the street that gets handed a dan ranking after a ridiculously short time while we had to sweat and put in many long years for something that others will view as "the same" doesn't matter in the end, because we are (most likely) a much better martial artist than he is.

However.  This issue definitely hits on people's sense of fairness, and the concept that there should be standards for certain accomplishments, and that two people who have similar time & intensity should be rewarded equally.  

Then there's the big villain in the closet of the psyche... EGO.  I suspect that this one accounts for a big, big percentage of the arguments, griping, whining, etc. that surrounds rank, honorary ranks, and so on.

So in short, most people's intellect says it really doesn't matter, but their ego screams "unfair!"


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## bostonbomber (Nov 13, 2008)

If rank is so important, then should a person be demoted if they neglect their art and lose skill?  Once someone gets a black belt are they always a black belt?


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## hpulley (Nov 13, 2008)

Unfortunately, rank only really means something to someone else.  Within your dojo/school I hope your instructor knows where you are without checking the cloth around your waist.  But the irony is, you can't really compare belts given out to different schools or systems.

If you really want a black belt or stripes that badly I'm sure you can order them online.  Create your own school and you can be your own grandmaster.

Honorary ranks and degrees don't mean much though some high ranks are pretty much honorary anyways.

If you think you should be at a higher rank then ask your instructor if you can test for it.  Then be honest with yourself about how well you did.

Or perhaps we should do it like the old days to see if people deserve their rank: fights to the death.  Think you're as good as that black belt over there?  Prove it...


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## pete (Nov 13, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Rank is a big deal because if you are learning from a 1st degree black belt you aren't going to go very far in that system before your going to have to find a new teacher. If your studying under a 7th degree black belt your obviously going to be able to go further in that system.


 that is a very naive statement.  

you are making an assumption that the guy with the fancier belt knows more and can transmit that knowledge to you... not always the case, but unfortunately probably what many consumers think to be true.

arghh.. that's what i like about the traditional chinese arts, no belts, no rankings, no crazy titles - just teacher and student.  '

pete


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## DavidCC (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm really proud of my daughter who just earned her purple belt, she's 8yrs old.

The other day in the lunch room I overheard a snippet, somebody was saying to someone else "Wow, a 7 yr old black belt? That's amazing!"

I didn't like it.  It bothered me.  Kayla worked (and fought) very hard for a long time to get where she is now.  Was there any way I could make this woman understand... but then I thought, if she's impressed by that, and doesn;t see what's wrong with calling a 7yr old child a Black Belt, then her opinion is pretty far from mattering to me.

But I sure would like to see my girl kick that kid's butt ROFL  sorry I know that's bad...


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## DavidCC (Nov 13, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> When asked about rank most martial artists will say that rank doesn't matter it is the skill of the student/instructor whom ever. Yet all the boards, lots of the threads and many of the posts all revolve around somebody being upset that so and so has this rank from that person or an honorary rank from such and such organization or "I have been in the arts twice as long as that guy over there with 28 stripes on his belt".
> 
> So......if its not what its all about and no one should care about rank why are we all so wrapped up in it?
> 
> someone please splain to me.


 
It's only confusing because you are trying to assign the entire MA community, on teh internet and off, one consistent point of view... Impossible... You and I are in the same system (sortof) and we almost never agree on anything LOL.  Some care and some don;t, and some care differently than others.  It depends on teh one wearing it, and the one judging him.


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## JTKenpo (Nov 13, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> It's only confusing because you are trying to assign the entire MA community, on teh internet and off, one consistent point of view... Impossible... You and I are in the same system (sortof) and we almost never agree on anything LOL. Some care and some don;t, and some care differently than others. It depends on teh one wearing it, and the one judging him.


 

It's a general statement yes and I did state that, but I don't pretend to state that everyone has the same point of view.  If you don't understand that it is a general question looking for the readers point of view then I'm sorry.  Personally I like that we don't agree because most times it makes (me atleast) try to see it from the others point of view, even if I still don't agree.  As for the same system I don't see how, all of your combos have been changed before you even got there, now you are changing even more.  Not that it is right or wrong, that is your path (meaning that of your school).  And just so we are clear I see absolutely nothing wrong with what you are doing in fact I applaud it.  I too teach much outside the realm of the #'d combos and katas.


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## terryl965 (Nov 13, 2008)

Does rank matter YES and it always will, let me explain joe smoo down the street is a 9th degree BB and he demands 200.00 a month and joe smoo up the street is only gettint 95.00 because he is a 4th. So up the street guy finds two friends to cross rank and up his rank so he is now a 10th and also on the Soke council of the Universe, now he is getting 300.00 a month not because he knows more but because he is now the Soke of all Soke's. My point is simple people equate stripes to knowledge, when it should be the other way around. To me give me a person that has more years than me and can actually train me in something and make me learn some new material and has only a BB and that is fine by me.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Nov 13, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Does rank matter YES and it always will, let me explain joe smoo down the street is a 9th degree BB and he demands 200.00 a month and joe smoo up the street is only gettint 95.00 because he is a 4th. So up the street guy finds two friends to cross rank and up his rank so he is now a 10th and also on the Soke council of the Universe, now he is getting 300.00 a month not because he knows more but because he is now the Soke of all Soke's. My point is simple people equate stripes to knowledge, when it should be the other way around. To me give me a person that has more years than me and can actually train me in something and make me learn some new material and has only a BB and that is fine by me.


 
I almost agree, but not quite. For many years, I was the SAME rank as someone clearly senior to me, having been a protege of my systems founder for many, many years. For many years after he passed, I outranked someone who clearly has more knowledge than I about many intricacies in our shared system. As I write this, I am outranked by guys who were brown belts, or brand spanking new blacks, when I was the same rank I am now, many years back. 

More specifically, I'm a 5th in Parkers kenpo. There are guys who I absolutely consider my seniors who are the same -- and lower -- ranks as I. Conversely, there are guys who are 7ths, 8ths, and even 10ths, who I in no way consider to be my seniors, or anywhere near worthy of the stripes on their belts. There are 9ths in the system who are infinitely more deserving of respect as elder statesmen than many of the 10ths who outrank them. 

There are several sets of "audiences" viewing ones actions and decisions at any point in time. There is the public, and they are the ones who care most about the stripes. Then there is the jury of our peers...those guys wearing the premature higher ranks have to look their betters in the eyes at tournaments and camps, and deal with knowing their peers are whispering unkindly behind their bakcs, if not outright talking smack as loudly as they can for all to hear.

I know my betters. And when they take the front of the class, I turn my knot to the side, and perk up an ear to learn what I might. Regardless of their style, background, whatever. Even regardless of who can beat whom...at a recent camp I was a guest instructor at, an oldster from another system showed to teach a segment. Nothing new offered, but the man offering it is a living icon, worthy of respect. I gave it gladly. Told the student I brought with me who was complaining about having already heard the content from other profs to shut up and train; that this man has absolutely earned the right to respect, and we will give it to him in spades.

Same camp had several guest profs who were "younger" in the arts than I, yet earned my definite respect as peers, because of their intelligence, commitment, earnestness, and work ethics. One from a really disreputable lineage history put on one of the best belt tests for a colored belt I've seen outside the Islands, and did it with (to me) all the right contexts in place. Props to them all; I learned much, and look forward to learning more, AND at some level continuing to be worthy (hopefully) of their respect and friendship in the years to come.

Flip side: I also recently walked out of a presentation by a guy from my system with more fame and stripes than I, cuz he was a dolt and talking nonsense that would get people hurt. I made sure he and his staff knew what I was doing, and why.

Earned rank is respected by those in the know; bought, schmoozed, or assumed rank is not. Simple, really.

D.


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## Drac (Nov 13, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Earned rank is respected by those in the know; bought, schmoozed, or assumed rank is not. Simple, really.D.


 
That about says it all...


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> When asked about rank most martial artists will say that rank doesn't matter it is the skill of the student/instructor whom ever. Yet all the boards, lots of the threads and many of the posts all revolve around somebody being upset that so and so has this rank from that person or an honorary rank from such and such organization or "I have been in the arts twice as long as that guy over there with 28 stripes on his belt".
> 
> So......if its not what its all about and no one should care about rank why are we all so wrapped up in it?
> 
> someone please splain to me.


 
Personally, I'm not upset over anyones rank.  I don't lose any sleep over it, because at the end of the day, its not me, but the other person, that has to worry about what others may think of them.   I simply inqure about rank, because it often amazes me how some are so obessed with gathering up 20 belts in 20 styles with 7th, 8th and 9th degrees.  

Of course, some people may view one person, and assume that everyone else in the art in question, is like that as well.

So, in the end, you're right, we should be focusing on the skill, not the rank.  So, if thats the case, why the need for some to broadcast their credentials?


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2008)

morph4me said:


> Rank is important to some people, not important to others, and others think it makes them seem profound to say rank isn't important when it's all they think about, depends on their individual ego and need to be recognized for their accomplishments. To each his own.


 
Of course, one would think that if the person in question was that ego driven to be recognized, that they would want to be known for their skill.  Afterall, that is what matters when it comes to SD, not the cloth tied about their belly.


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> I think rank & lineage is a big deal. Rank is a big deal because if you are learning from a 1st degree black belt you aren't going to go very far in that system before your going to have to find a new teacher. If your studying under a 7th degree black belt your obviously going to be able to go further in that system. I think lineage is just as inportant as rank too.


 
So in this scenario, we're assuming that the 1st degree has his/her own school?  So if thats the case, and if the school isn't a belt factory and makes the student put in the time and make sure they really know the material, then by the time they reach the BB level, its very possible the 1st degree could have moved up a level.


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Does rank matter YES and it always will, let me explain joe smoo down the street is a 9th degree BB and he demands 200.00 a month and joe smoo up the street is only gettint 95.00 because he is a 4th. So up the street guy finds two friends to cross rank and up his rank so he is now a 10th and also on the Soke council of the Universe, now he is getting 300.00 a month not because he knows more but because he is now the Soke of all Soke's. My point is simple people equate stripes to knowledge, when it should be the other way around. To me give me a person that has more years than me and can actually train me in something and make me learn some new material and has only a BB and that is fine by me.


 
So, like Pete said in response to JD's comment, people are looking at that high rank, going 'ohh and ahh' and assuming that because a person is an 8th, they are somehow better.  Sure, upon first look, that is the natural line of thought, yet in the end, that may not be the case, because the lower rank could very well know more and perhaps apply the material better.  

From personal experience, I know of a few lower ranking black belts, that had much more practical skill than the teacher.  The teacher never did much of anything with those students, due to the fact that they'd probably make him look foolish.  Sparring...forget it...the lower BBs would clearly out fight him.  

Due to the fact that I don't know who is reading this, I won't mention any names, however, if Stickarts is reading this thread, I'm sure he'll know who I'm talking about.


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## furtom (Nov 14, 2008)

hkfuie said:


> People usually really, really want things to be "fair."  But it ain't like that in the martial arts.



Very true. I think if you substitute "real world" for "martial arts" it will be even more true! :wink2:


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## Doc (Nov 14, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> I think rank & lineage is a big deal.  Rank is a big deal because if you are learning from a 1st degree black belt you aren't going to go very far in that system before your going to have to find a new teacher.  If your studying under a 7th degree black belt your obviously going to be able to go further in that system.  I think lineage is just as inportant as rank too.



The problem with your assessment is you are assuming the ranks actually represent what they are supposed to. I know several 1st degree ranks that know a lot more than quite a few 7th's, and higher I could name.


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## Drac (Nov 14, 2008)

Doc said:


> I know several 1st degree ranks that know a lot more than quite a few 7th's, and higher I could name.


 
Ditto on that comment...


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## KempoGuy06 (Nov 14, 2008)

rank is only important to me because i like pretty colors 

and it gives me a tool to explain my progression in the arts to someone not in the arts and I like to have goals in place

B


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## morph4me (Nov 14, 2008)

MJS said:


> Of course, one would think that if the person in question was that ego driven to be recognized, that they would want to be known for their skill. Afterall, that is what matters when it comes to SD, not the cloth tied about their belly.


 
True, but you can tell someone that you're a 25 degreee black belt with blu polka dots and get the oohs and aahs of the undeducated masses to help feed your ego. You'd have to demonstrate skill, and that might show your flaws and weaknesses, and you wouldn't want people to know about those


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## MJS (Nov 14, 2008)

morph4me said:


> True, but you can tell someone that you're a 25 degreee black belt with blu polka dots and get the oohs and aahs of the undeducated masses to help feed your ego. You'd have to demonstrate skill, and that might show your flaws and weaknesses, and you wouldn't want people to know about those


 
LOL, true!  Whats sad, is that the uneducated will fall for this, hook, line and sinker.  To the uneducated, those con artists look appealing, while the ones who know better, will see thru them.  

A quote that I've seen Mr. John Bishop use in his sig line..."Time will either promote you or expose you."  Truer words were never spoken.


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## DavidCC (Nov 14, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> It's a general statement yes and I did state that, but I don't pretend to state that everyone has the same point of view. If you don't understand that it is a general question looking for the readers point of view then I'm sorry. Personally I like that we don't agree because most times it makes (me atleast) try to see it from the others point of view, even if I still don't agree. As for the same system I don't see how, all of your combos have been changed before you even got there, now you are changing even more. Not that it is right or wrong, that is your path (meaning that of your school). And just so we are clear I see absolutely nothing wrong with what you are doing in fact I applaud it. I too teach much outside the realm of the #'d combos and katas.


 
I agree 

asides : not ALL our combos are changed!  We still do the same #6   LOL and many more I'm sure

but is "the system" just "the techniques"?  Or is it more?  sorry, wrong thread for that


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## hkfuie (Nov 14, 2008)

Nomad said:


> However.  This issue definitely hits on people's sense of fairness, and the concept that there should be standards for certain accomplishments, and that two people who have similar time & intensity should be rewarded equally.
> 
> Then there's the big villain in the closet of the psyche... EGO.



Yeah, that's the difficulty, the idea that it should be standard.  That is so basic, my mind just assumes it without me realizing it, so I am sure the non-m.a. public would assume the same.

I have to admit I have had my struggles with this.  But I see it as an opportunity to grow every time I deal with it again.    I wish I could say it has never bothered me.    It is a good thing b/c it teaches me humility.  My skills are not about the belt and they are not about what others think, anyway.  There is more than one path through martial arts knowledge and more than one reason to train.  

Ahhh...I feel better.  Maybe I will take Carol's approach and just go train.


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## Ray (Nov 14, 2008)

When I first started in Kenpo, advancement was what I sought. 

At green belt, I changed my goal from advancement to becoming as good as the best that I knew and vowed to never test until I was as good as them.

At this point I still want to increase my skill and knowledge.  I'm content to wear my 19 year old black belt for now.  I know I'll never be as good as I want to be. And there is no end to knowledge and things to learn.


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## jks9199 (Nov 14, 2008)

There are several "problems" with rank and comparing ranks.  First -- rank is NOT absolute.  My 2nd level black belt has several meanings: it means I'm a black belt in my art, having met the criteria at the time I was initially promoted, and have been promoted once since then.  It means nothing in comparison with any other black belt in any other system by itself.  Without knowing WHEN I was promoted, you don't even have a clue what tests I passed -- or if I passed any to be advanced!  

To me, rank is a quick, rough sorting of where people's skills within their art are.  In some cases, a black belt indicates a lot of skill and knowledge; in others, it means that you've learned the basics well enough to finally really start learning.  In some styles, any black belt is expected to be able to teach; in others, only those particularly selected and licensed or designated are instructors.  A red belt in TKD is often the step below black; in many Japanese styles, it designates a very high level black belt!

I see rank as a personal guide within my system -- but only a guide.  Rank isn't the same as status or respect.


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## Danjo (Nov 14, 2008)

It all depends on how you identify yourself I think. When I think of myself as a member of the Emperado-Reyes-Forbach-Bishop lineage, then I am _very_ proud of my black belt because  know that they are not given away and anyone who knows that lineage well, knows what my black belt means. When I think of myself as a _Kajukenbo_ black belt, then I am still proud, because I know that _MOST_ of those ranks are given out properly compared to other organizations I've had dealings with, or ones I've observed. When I think of myself as a "Martial Artist" then my rank is almost meaningless given how little standardization there is and how many of them are merely sold to children etc. So it all depends on how I identify myself as to how proud I feel of my black belt.


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## MJS (Nov 14, 2008)

Danjo said:


> It all depends on how you identify yourself I think. When I think of myself as a member of the Emperado-Reyes-Forbach-Bishop lineage, then I am _very_ proud of my black belt because know that they are not given away and anyone who knows that lineage well, knows what my black belt means. When I think of myself as a _Kajukenbo_ black belt, then I am still proud, because I know that _MOST_ of those ranks are given out properly compared to other organizations I've had dealings with, or ones I've observed. When I think of myself as a "Martial Artist" then my rank is almost meaningless given how little standardization there is and how many of them are merely sold to children etc. So it all depends on how I identify myself as to how proud I feel of my black belt.


 
Great post, and the underlined part brings up an interesting point.  Granted its probably next to impossible to have everyone use the same standards, because some will probably be lower or higher than others, but it sure would be nice to see something in place.

I could see some margin for error in the first few ranks, ie: yellow and orange.  But once they start to advance up, that margin needs to be smaller.  People are not perfect, but my God, if someone is up for green belt, you'd think that things would look sharp.  

I"ve sat on my share of rank tests, and there were many times when I felt like telling the person to leave the floor, pack their bags, and come back when they knew what they were doing.  

Im certainly not implying that I'm perfect...lol...I'm far from it.  We all have our brain farts.  But once you remember what it is you're supposed to be doing, then dammit, do it with some effort.


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## ares (Nov 14, 2008)

Some people see it as a sign of accomplishment. That's how I see it. But I also know that I must always remember to keep studying and improve in what I know. I have seen some people come into the dojo with a higher rank then me, but when we would train I could see that they didn't practice much in the lower rank stuff, so they were sloppy and unpolished. Rank is only that you have learned things up to a certain point. If you don't keep learning and perfecting what you already know then your belt doesn't mean squat.


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## zeeberex (Nov 14, 2008)

ares said:


> Some people see it as a sign of accomplishment. That's how I see it. But I also know that I must always remember to keep studying and improve in what I know. I have seen some people come into the dojo with a higher rank then me, but when we would train I could see that they didn't practice much in the lower rank stuff, so they were sloppy and unpolished. Rank is only that you have learned things up to a certain point. If you don't keep learning and perfecting what you already know then your belt doesn't mean squat.




I already posted this once, its the journey. Once you get to black, it wears over time utlimately returning to white, and you get to begin again...... You refine your understanding with every repetition. Point? Stop obsessing on rank, and enjoy the ride.


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## kidswarrior (Nov 15, 2008)

zeeberex said:


> I already posted this once, its the journey. Once you get to black, it wears over time utlimately returning to white, and you get to begin again...... You refine your understanding with every repetition. Point? Stop obsessing on rank, and enjoy the ride.


This is certainly true for me, personally. 

From white to black, rank was pretty much everything. It was all about me. After 1st black, 2nd for sure, kinda lost interest in my rank, and it's become about helping others (which actually forces me to strive to get _much _better--staying ahead of the students, and all that ).


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## hkfuie (Nov 15, 2008)

Rank keeps people in the arts until they learn enough to fall in love with their art.  

So I guess until you stop worrying about rank, you're just dating your art.  

Once you fall in love with your art, or martial arts, THEN it's all about learning and growing.  That's my theory, at least.


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## Kenpodoc (Nov 15, 2008)

I'm proud of my Blackbelt because it was given to me by my Instructor Mr. Hatfield and his  instructor Mr. Wedlake. They felt I deserved it and I was honored to recieve it and remain honored.  beyond that it is just a piece of cloth and certainly ranks are difficult to compare school to school, let alone art to art.  Judge the person and don't  worry about the belt. 
Last week I got a chance to train with Doc Chapel and I would gladly return to white belt if it would get me more time on the mat with Doc.  I feel the same about the time I've spent with Mr. Wedlake.

Jeff


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## jamz (Nov 16, 2008)

I've only been practicing for a year, but am halfway through the "color scale", so now belt advancements stop coming quickly.  If I continue at the normal pace, working up through the rest of them will take another four years or so.  For me, now is a good time to forget about rank, or at least put it in the back of the mind, because it will be a very long (but enjoyable) trip, and to lust after the next belt color will just make it frustrating.  Brown is a year and a half alone at my school.

Especially important to forget about it because I know I could swap schools within the system and "get" a black belt much faster (villaris, ya know...heck I could get one in the mail).... but as my instructor says, you could get a black belt faster, but if you put in more time, and more practice, you could be so much _better_, which is why it takes a while at her dojo, and that's also why I stay there.


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## Doc (Nov 16, 2008)

jamz said:


> I've only been practicing for a year, but am halfway through the "color scale", so now belt advancements stop coming quickly.  If I continue at the normal pace, working up through the rest of them will take another four years or so.  For me, now is a good time to forget about rank, or at least put it in the back of the mind, because it will be a very long (but enjoyable) trip, and to lust after the next belt color will just make it frustrating.  Brown is a year and a half alone at my school.
> 
> Especially important to forget about it because I know I could swap schools within the system and "get" a black belt much faster (villaris, ya know...heck I could get one in the mail).... but as my instructor says, you could get a black belt faster, but if you put in more time, and more practice, you could be so much _better_, which is why it takes a while at her dojo, and that's also why I stay there.


While it is commendable to not focus on rank in study sir, it is important to recognize that, "time in grade" is only one of many indicators of competency. There is a plethora of "brick" sporting black belts who would do well to actually learn something before beginning to teach others and attach such accouterments, albeit many have multiple decades of time wearing the uniform.


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## hpulley (Nov 16, 2008)

The converse problem to just being focused on belts and the syllibis is that you learn nothing else.  Like the kids in school who could ace a test but couldn't answer a practical off-book question about the subject, people who know exactly what kata and techniques are required for their next belt but nothing else are going to be very one (or at best two) dimensional.  Take the time to get good, to get breadth in the art and to really understand rather than just going through the motions and doing the bare minimum.

The other funny one I hear is that black belt is high enough, that a person will switch arts so they can get a different black belt.  As if that is the end!  Don't get me wrong, I cross train and love cross training so I think doing multiple arts is great but to think of stopping learning an art just because you get a black belt makes it sound like something very different than how I think about it.  I don't think you could ever be done learning an art and even if you were, you could come up with extensions to it.


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## sjansen (Nov 16, 2008)

Doc said:


> While it is commendable to not focus on rank in study sir, it is important to recognize that, "time in grade" is only one of many indicators of competency. There is a plethora of "brick" sporting black belts who would do well to actually learn something before beginning to teach others and attach such accouterments, albeit many have multiple decades of time wearing the uniform.


 
I agree. And, the fact that you studied under such and such does not make you any more competent than the next guy. Your family tree does not matter much either if it does not have roots. Why is everyone so concerned about rank  and family tree and not what they see. The proof is in the pudding. If someone is a hen, call them a hen. If someone is not then so be it. When ones who call themselves so, they are probably not. The ones who say "I am just a student" are the ones you want to learn from. If they prostate others you probably want to look elsewhere. 

Remember that tigers strike for what can be seen. Dragons strike for what maters.


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## kenpo3631 (Nov 17, 2008)

> There is a plethora of "brick" sporting black belts who would do well to actually learn something before beginning to teach others and attach such accouterments, albeit many have multiple decades of time wearing the uniform.


 
Say it ain't so Doc, say it ain't so!  

:roflmao:


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## kenpo3631 (Nov 17, 2008)

sjansen said:


> The ones who say "I am just a student" are the ones you want to learn from.


 
That's not entirely true either.


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## SL4Drew (Nov 17, 2008)

Danjo said:


> It all depends on how you identify yourself I think. When I think of myself as a member of the Emperado-Reyes-Forbach-Bishop lineage, then I am _very_ proud of my black belt because know that they are not given away and anyone who knows that lineage well, knows what my black belt means. When I think of myself as a _Kajukenbo_ black belt, then I am still proud, because I know that _MOST_ of those ranks are given out properly compared to other organizations I've had dealings with, or ones I've observed. When I think of myself as a "Martial Artist" then my rank is almost meaningless given how little standardization there is and how many of them are merely sold to children etc. So it all depends on how I identify myself as to how proud I feel of my black belt.


 
For the record, I think Kajukenbo handles lineages and ranks better than most arts--Chow descended or otherwise.


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## shihansmurf (Nov 20, 2008)

Danjo said:


> It all depends on how you identify yourself I think. When I think of myself as a member of the Emperado-Reyes-Forbach-Bishop lineage, then I am _very_ proud of my black belt because know that they are not given away and anyone who knows that lineage well, knows what my black belt means. When I think of myself as a _Kajukenbo_ black belt, then I am still proud, because I know that _MOST_ of those ranks are given out properly compared to other organizations I've had dealings with, or ones I've observed. When I think of myself as a "Martial Artist" then my rank is almost meaningless given how little standardization there is and how many of them are merely sold to children etc. So it all depends on how I identify myself as to how proud I feel of my black belt.


 
I have been conflicted on the subject of rank for quite a long time. On the one hand it means little to nothing to me, yet on the other I find that I  give the subject a great deal of importance. I am preparing to grade in about a year, so the matter has been on my mind a bit.

I am not that big a fan of it for a lot of reasons. The selling of ranks for fun and profit. The false sense of security that an "unearned" rank imparts in a person. The over inflater sense

Rob Redmond has several articles on his site that have influenced my views on rank and its "value". For the most part I find that it is difficult to place objective worth in any of it. You do, however, raise an interesting point of view that I had not really considered.  I respect and value the opinion of my teachers and, when the rank is viewed as an outward symbol of their assessment of my skill and ability, then it is priceless.

I appreciate your contribution to this thread.

Thank you.

Mark


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## Doc (Dec 3, 2008)

Keep in mind the modern origin of the rank issue has its roots firmly place in American Capitalism. Belt stripes originated in America, and went wild in the business of kenpo. Prior to the creation of the business, no one wore stripes. It was a smaller community and everyone knew who the bad asses were. You didn't need stripes to know the Emperado, or Parker were people you spoke in hushed tones to with no furtive gestures.

No the business of the martial arts created this atmosphere of rank hustle. I know a guy who promoted him self to 7th, because a guy moved into a building in his neighborhood who was 6th, and thought he was justified. I asked him "what he would do if the 6th degree left or closed down? Would he "take his 7th back off." He had no answer.

Even Parker never wore stripes until 7th, forced to by the business and his own students wearing stripes. Rank is primarily important if you're trying to "sale" something in a ranked discipline. The general public actually thinks these ranks mean something. Why study with a 2nd, when there is a 5th down the street? It's all about competition and salesmanship.


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## marlon (Dec 3, 2008)

KELLYG said:


> So does rank matter. In some ways yes and in some ways no.
> 
> I have always felt that my skills are not up to what my current belt level. There has always been a growing into the new rank period of time. This is the way that I have felt thru each belt level from white belt up!!
> I also feel that today I am a little better than yesterday and that tomorrow I will be better than the day before. And so on and so on and so on. Trust me I have earned each belt/rank that I have worn, and wear them with pride, but still strive to continue to improve. I also know that I can learn from anyone regardless of rank if I see that they have a better understanding of something than I do and I am not ashamed to ask for help.


 
I really enjoy the above...and ditto.  I remind myself often that my current rank means that i have completed my previous rank and not this one yet.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Carol (Dec 4, 2008)

shihansmurf said:


> I have been conflicted on the subject of rank for quite a long time. On the one hand it means little to nothing to me, yet on the other I find that I  give the subject a great deal of importance. I am preparing to grade in about a year, so the matter has been on my mind a bit.
> 
> I am not that big a fan of it for a lot of reasons. The selling of ranks for fun and profit. The false sense of security that an "unearned" rank imparts in a person. The over inflater sense
> 
> ...



And that's why its important to see how an instructor (or potential instructor) views the subject of rank.  Have they earned it through hard work and contributions to the art?  Or was it a prize that was awarded for joining a different organization?  Or did they essentially promote themselves  (whether or not they found someone else to sign off on the rank jump)?

How the instructor views rank is going to indicate a lot about what a students rank under that instructor will mean.  It may take several years of work to earn a black belt.  After putting in all that time, effort, and money in to one's training, the rank earned should be one that the student can be thoroughly proud of achieving.


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## LawDog (Dec 4, 2008)

Belt stripe ranking, being an American creation or not does mean something inside a school of quality. These little stripes represent a standerized level of physical and mental acheivement, a quality control thing. 
Granted there are many schools that use these little stripes for monitary gain, shame on them. I cannot understand why a school owner would remove part of his / her schools quality control because others abuse it.
One should not care what the "coat tail" riders do, be concerned instead with your own students.
By using these little stripes you have on display a visable mulit level of achievements for your students, they can look across your dojo floor and see the many different levels of abilities and associate them to these little foolish stripes.
In the martial arts of today there seems to be little of no standerized quality control levels.
To each their own path to follow.
:ultracool


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 11, 2008)

We all know that rank is only of any import within a given system.  My kumdo yidan is only of import within my own school.  My Taekwondo ildan is only of import at Kukkiwon schools.  The public is wrapped up in it because all they see is a black belt.

But while we in the MA community may say that it is skill, not rank which is important (which is true, by the way), rank will get you into certain conversations or help you to be taken seriously in certain conversations.  

Lastly, some systems, such as the Kukkiwon, require one to be of a specific rank before they are allowed to promote anyone to first dan, so there is sometimes an administrative component as well.

Daniel


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## Danjo (Dec 11, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> We all know that rank is only of any import within a given system. My kumdo yidan is only of import within my own school. My Taekwondo ildan is only of import at Kukkiwon schools. The public is wrapped up in it because all they see is a black belt.
> 
> But while we in the MA community may say that it is skill, not rank which is important (which is true, by the way), rank will get you into certain conversations or help you to be taken seriously in certain conversations.
> 
> ...


 
There are also other times when rank matters outside of your school. Tournaments for example, only want black belts to judge/referee etc. for various reasons, so in a sense that's outside recognition of your rank. Also, having a black belt from a school tells the outside world what a black belt in your school looks like. The problem comes when complete novices take all black belts to men the same thing. You can see this in a lot of other situations. There is a world of difference between Sheriff Andy Taylor of Mayberry, and Sheriff Buford Pusser of McNairy County, but they both have the title "Sheriff".


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 11, 2008)

Danjo said:


> There are also other times when rank matters outside of your school. Tournaments for example, only want black belts to judge/referee etc. for various reasons, so in a sense that's outside recognition of your rank. Also, having a black belt from a school tells the outside world what a black belt in your school looks like. The problem comes when complete novices take all black belts to men the same thing. You can see this in a lot of other situations. There is a world of difference between Sheriff Andy Taylor of Mayberry, and Sheriff Buford Pusser of McNairy County, but they both have the title "Sheriff".


Good observation regarding the tournaments.  USAT has not only blackbelt requirements, but I do believe that to qualify for the olympics, you not only have to be USAT, but Kukkiwon as well.

I also liked your sheriff analogy.

Daniel


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