# Aikido in the MMA ring?



## Jenna

I did not get to reply in the other thread and have not had my concern put to rest.. so yea, I do Aikido for a while, I do not practice other arts or mix it up, I am a one art gal so just Aikido.. In a self-inflicted internet hypothetical-type nightmare I agree to get in the ring against a MMA fighter male or female does not matter seasoned for the same duration in their training as me in mine. For the sake of arguments or by the laws of Newton or perhaps the gods of luck and fate which decree: "87.3% of fights go to the ground", I am undone by my lack of ability under my opponents guard or mount or inferior in strength and take a beating and am damaged sufficiently that I need to learn some lessons, yes?  I am not certain exactly what lesson it is I have been taught or what action I ought to take??

Can some one explain in *simple* terms?

Like if the implication is that MMA beats Aikido, that is peachy whatever.. is maybe not relevant to me? I do not work in the Aikikai PR dept nor make my money from a Roly Poly AIki video channel so I have no stake. I have seen Aikidoka hammered in an MMA ring.. I do not understand wtf they are doing there or trying to prove and what is the lesson to be taken from their actual asskicking or from my imagined one??  

Like to hear your thoughts.. x


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## Tez3

We've been promoting fights for  over 17 years, we have been training fighters for slightly longer but I have yet to see any 'single' style fighter come into an MMA fight.  MMA is what it says it is MIXED martial arts. These days there is simply no place for a fighter who has just one style , sure the early UFCs had gimmick fights but that's not MMA.


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## tshadowchaser

Considering the philosophy behind Aikido I wonder why someone simply trained in Aikido would get into a MMA match. 
As for might be needed much of Aikido is for those on their knees or standing, but can you use the same movements while on your back? If not how do these moves need to be used to redirect or control someone on top of you.


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## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> We've been promoting fights for  over 17 years, we have been training fighters for slightly longer but I have yet to see any 'single' style fighter come into an MMA fight.  MMA is what it says it is MIXED martial arts. These days there is simply no place for a fighter who has just one style , sure the early UFCs had gimmick fights but that's not MMA.



While they're certainly not single style, you do have people who have spent the majority of their lives training in a particular discipline. For example Damian Maia, Ryan Hall, Gary Tonnen, and Kron Gracie have spent the majority of their time practicing Bjj for example. Loyoto Machida has spent the majority of his life practicing his family's style of Karate.

Where are the MMA fighters who have spent the majority of their time practicing Aikido?


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## Spinedoc

tshadowchaser said:


> Considering the philosophy behind Aikido I wonder why someone simply trained in Aikido would get into a MMA match.
> As for might be needed much of Aikido is for those on their knees or standing, but can you use the same movements while on your back? If not how do these moves need to be used to redirect or control someone on top of you.



This ^^^^^

Here's an interesting video of Roy Dean using a kotegaeshi takedown into a sankyo lock, but then applying it in a BJJ fashion. Cool….


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## Hanzou

Jenna said:


> I did not get to reply in the other thread and have not had my concern put to rest.. so yea, I do Aikido for a while, I do not practice other arts or mix it up, I am a one art gal so just Aikido.. In a self-inflicted internet hypothetical-type nightmare I agree to get in the ring against a MMA fighter male or female does not matter seasoned for the same duration in their training as me in mine. For the sake of arguments or by the laws of Newton or perhaps the gods of luck and fate which decree: "87.3% of fights go to the ground", I am undone by my lack of ability under my opponents guard or mount or inferior in strength and take a beating and am damaged sufficiently that I need to learn some lessons, yes?  I am not certain exactly what lesson it is I have been taught or what action I ought to take??
> 
> Can some one explain in *simple* terms?
> 
> Like if the implication is that MMA beats Aikido, that is peachy whatever.. is maybe not relevant to me? I do not work in the Aikikai PR dept nor make my money from a Roly Poly AIki video channel so I have no stake. I have seen Aikidoka hammered in an MMA ring.. I do not understand wtf they are doing there or trying to prove and what is the lesson to be taken from their actual asskicking or from my imagined one??
> 
> Like to hear your thoughts.. x



Here you go, in simple terms;


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## Spinedoc

Hanzou said:


> Here you go, in simple terms;



The mistake being made here is the assumption that anyone practicing Aikido even cares about Bas Rutten. Most, in fact, I would say the overwhelming majority of Aikidoka I know DON'T watch, nor do they care one bit about the UFC or MMA. It's not something they are into at all.


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## Hanzou

Spinedoc said:


> The mistake being made here is the assumption that anyone practicing Aikido even cares about Bas Rutten. Most, in fact, I would say the overwhelming majority of Aikidoka I know DON'T watch, nor do they care one bit about the UFC or MMA. It's not something they are into at all.



Except the question was about Aikido in MMA, and how it would perform in a MMA environment. Bas' viewpoint as a veteran MMA fighter, and as a legend in the sport is important here.

The mistake being made here is the assumption that MMA fighters hate Aikido just for the sake of hating it. The truth is that MMA fighters utilize what works in the cage, and if it doesn't work, they don't take it seriously.


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## drop bear

The lesson learned is it is not what you think will happen in a fight that matters. It is what actually happens that means anything.

So perception as Bas puts it is the key here. You need to take the lessons learned from fighting and apply it to your training. Not the lessons learned from training applied to fighting.

So if you were actually in our gym with the argument that akido works. We would get you to jump in the cage and make it work.


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## Steve

Jenna said:


> I did not get to reply in the other thread and have not had my concern put to rest.. so yea, I do Aikido for a while, I do not practice other arts or mix it up, I am a one art gal so just Aikido.. In a self-inflicted internet hypothetical-type nightmare I agree to get in the ring against a MMA fighter male or female does not matter seasoned for the same duration in their training as me in mine. For the sake of arguments or by the laws of Newton or perhaps the gods of luck and fate which decree: "87.3% of fights go to the ground", I am undone by my lack of ability under my opponents guard or mount or inferior in strength and take a beating and am damaged sufficiently that I need to learn some lessons, yes?  I am not certain exactly what lesson it is I have been taught or what action I ought to take??
> 
> Can some one explain in *simple* terms?
> 
> Like if the implication is that MMA beats Aikido, that is peachy whatever.. is maybe not relevant to me? I do not work in the Aikikai PR dept nor make my money from a Roly Poly AIki video channel so I have no stake. I have seen Aikidoka hammered in an MMA ring.. I do not understand wtf they are doing there or trying to prove and what is the lesson to be taken from their actual asskicking or from my imagined one??
> 
> Like to hear your thoughts.. x


I don't think you gain or lose much.  I also don't think aikido or MMA would gain or lose much.   It would be pointless.

I do think there is a lot of value for you individually to train with people from other arts... At least, if you are interested in training for fertile fighting skills.   You don't have to train bjj, for example, but if you really want to ensure that your skills are well honed, you might want to train your aikido with people who are experienced with bjj.   

Would go in reverse, as well.   Getting people from various styles together to workout and share knowledge is a good thing, IMO.


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## Steve

Hanzou said:


> Except the question was about Aikido in MMA, and how it would perform in a MMA environment. Bas' viewpoint as a veteran MMA fighter, and as a legend in the sport is important here.
> 
> The mistake being made here is the assumption that MMA fighters hate Aikido just for the sake of hating it. The truth is that MMA fighters utilize what works in the cage, and if it doesn't work, they don't take it seriously.


The topic actually isn't how aikido would fare in MMA.  The question was about what value competing in MMA would have for Jenna.  Very different.

I don't think entering MMA would be very useful at all for Jenna, but I do think some healthy competition, whether formal or informal, is vital to developing reliable skills.


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## Hanzou

Steve said:


> The topic actually isn't how aikido would fare in MMA.  The question was about what value competing in MMA would have for Jenna.  Very different.
> 
> I don't think entering MMA would be very useful at all for Jenna, but I do think some healthy competition, whether formal or informal, is vital to developing reliable skills.



I read it as how would her Aikido be helpful if she chose to compete in MMA.

Either way, the basic reality is that Aikido wouldn't serve her as well in MMA as some other disciplines would.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Here you go, in simple terms;


so how many years of Aikido did he train to make that judgement?


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> The topic actually isn't how aikido would fare in MMA.  The question was about what value competing in MMA would have for Jenna.  Very different.
> 
> I don't think entering MMA would be very useful at all for Jenna, but I do think some healthy competition, whether formal or informal, is vital to developing reliable skills.



Mma does give more scope for exploration.

Just because there is more going on.


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## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> so how many years of Aikido did he train to make that judgement?



And this is what jenna would gain from mma. 
We can wax lyrical about whether bas understands enough about akido to judge its usefullness or you could just find bas and akido him
Otherwise you would be committed to learning akido for ten years. Which seems like the long way to go about the issue.


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> so how many years of Aikido did he train to make that judgement?



Ask Bas. I'm sure he'd love to discuss how he reached that conclusion.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> And this is what jenna would gain from mma.
> We can wax lyrical about whether bas understands enough about akido to judge its usefullness or you could just find bas and akido him
> Otherwise you would be committed to learning akido for ten years. Which seems like the long way to go about the issue.





Hanzou said:


> Ask Bas. I'm sure he'd love to discuss how he reached that conclusion.



Well I dont know Bas so Im not sure Ill be discussing anything with him.  However if all he knows about Aikido is the have wrist locks well he may not be an exeprt on the topic


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## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Well I dont know Bas so Im not sure Ill be discussing anything with him.  However if all he knows about Aikido is the have wrist locks well he may not be an exeprt on the topic



I think the whole point of this thread is there is not a mma akido expert that exists.


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## ballen0351

At least he took the time to learn before passing judgement


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> I think the whole point of this thread is there is not a mma akido expert that exists.


Then Bas opinion it wont work is irrelevant to the topic


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## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Then Bas opinion it wont work is irrelevant to the topic



Lol.  Hardly.  As he has a fair idea of what will work.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Lol.  Hardly.  As he has a fair idea of what will work.


You just said working or not wasn't the topic


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## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> You just said working or not wasn't the topic



I must have said it quietly  because it isnt written on this thread.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> I think the whole point of this thread is there is not a mma akido expert that exists.





drop bear said:


> I must have said it quietly  because it isnt written on this thread.


Well according to you the topic is if there is an expert in Aikido in MMA not if Aikido would work in MMA


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Then Bas opinion it wont work is irrelevant to the topic



So who's opinion would be relevant? Aikidoka who have never fought in MMA (since we've established that Aikido as a base art in MMA is nonexistent)?


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> So who's opinion would be relevant? Aikidoka who have never fought in MMA (since we've established that Aikido as a base art in MMA is nonexistent)?


According to you..........


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> According to you..........



According to fighter histories and stats. I have yet to see any mma fighter have Aikido as their base style.

If you've found some to the contrary, please share.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> According to fighter histories and stats. I have yet to see any mma fighter have Aikido as their base style.
> 
> If you've found some to the contrary, please share.


Im not arrogant enough to believe I know what every fighter in the world is trained in.....................


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Im not arrogant enough to believe I know what every fighter in the world is trained in.....................



Okay..... well in the absence of any Aikido-based MMA fighter, Bas' viewpoint becomes extremely relevant to the topic.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Okay..... well in the absence of any Aikido-based MMA fighter, Bas' viewpoint becomes extremely relevant to the topic.


Nope he knows nothing about Aikido to pass judgment


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Nope he knows *nothing* about Aikido to pass judgment



Actually, we don't know how much he knows about Aikido.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Actually, we don't know how much he knows about Aikido.


well his explanation of wrist locks shows a lack of knowledge on the topic


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## Drew Ahn-Kim

I think there's a fundamental misconception about what a martial artist is supposed to be.  I love MMA, I train BJJ, however I appreciate all Martial Arts and realize they all have different functions and philosophies.  I also would never go on a crusade against other styles, BJJ doesn't need a spokesperson to advocate why its the best grappling style, that's what ADCC is for.  Everyone's martial arts journey is different, and at its core should be about personal growth and development, not about being the best fighter.

"There is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist. A fighter is training for a purpose: He has a fight. I'm a martial artist. I don't train for a fight. I train for myself. I'm training all the time. My goal is perfection. But I will never reach perfection." - Georges St. Pierre


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## Steve

Hanzou said:


> I read it as how would her Aikido be helpful if she chose to compete in MMA.
> 
> Either way, the basic reality is that Aikido wouldn't serve her as well in MMA as some other disciplines would.


That would be true if her goal were to do well in MMA.  If her goal is to improve her aikido, MMA wouldn't be all that helpful.  Wouldn't you agree?


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## Hanzou

Steve said:


> That would be true if her goal were to do well in MMA.  If her goal is to improve her aikido, MMA wouldn't be all that helpful.  Wouldn't you agree?



Well a good question to ask is why wouldn't MMA improve her Aikido?

If we are to believe that Aikido is a martial art that can be used in a fight, why couldn't it be useful for MMA purposes? MMA bouts are nothing more than sanctioned fights after all.


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## Drew Ahn-Kim

Hanzou said:


> Well a good question to ask is why wouldn't MMA improve her Aikido?
> 
> If we are to believe that Aikido is a martial art that can be used in a fight, why couldn't it be useful for MMA purposes? MMA bouts are nothing more than sanctioned fights after all.



It MAY improve her Aikido, but it very MAY not.  Training MMA requires you to focus on so many things that you will undoubtedly lose some of the time as well as cognitive resources that could be devoted to a single martial art discipline.  Also your statement supposes that Aikido's success is solely based on its ability to perform in a fight.  I don't know enough about Aikido to make any judgements of absolute certainty, but I'm pretty sure the art has much more to it then that.


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## ballen0351

Drew Ahn-Kim said:


> , that's what ADCC is for.


Whats ADCC?


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Well a good question to ask is why wouldn't MMA improve her Aikido?



Different goals, mindset, rules, motivation



> If we are to believe that Aikido is a martial art that can be used in a fight, why couldn't it be useful for MMA purposes? MMA bouts are nothing more than sanctioned fights after all.



Different goals, mindset, rules, motivation
....


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## Hanzou

Drew Ahn-Kim said:


> It MAY improve her Aikido, but it very MAY not.  Training MMA requires you to focus on so many things that you will undoubtedly lose some of the time as well as cognitive resources that could be devoted to a single martial art discipline.



Eh, not sure I agree with that. As a purple belt in Bjj, I occasionally cross-train with some MMA guys and I find it very beneficial since they'll actually throw strikes at me while I'm grappling them, show me how to mix in striking with my grappling, and I get to practice takedowns a lot more than I do at my home gym. I find those aspects to be very beneficial to my main discipline.

I can't imagine a Aikidoka wouldn't enjoy similar benefits from practicing with a MMA fighter.



> Also your statement supposes that Aikido's success is solely based on its ability to perform in a fight.  I don't know enough about Aikido to make any judgements of absolute certainty, but I'm pretty sure the art has much more to it then that.



I would say that any martial art's success hinges on the belief of its practitioners that it can protect them in a fight. I have yet to run across any MA practitioner who said that their art doesn't teach them how to fight, or how to defend themselves if some burly thug is looking to do them harm.

Heck, Aikidoka themselves relish in the tales of O'Sensei and Takeda Sōkaku's fighting abilities.



ballen0351 said:


> Different goals, mindset, rules, motivation



Those vary from person to person regardless of MA of choice. Not everyone practicing Aikido has the same goals, mindset, or motivation for example.


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## Drew Ahn-Kim

ballen0351 said:


> Whats ADCC?


ADCC is the Abu Dhabi Combat Club Submission Wrestling World Championship, funded by the Sheikh of UAE, it's a grappling tournament open to any style and has seen Wrestlers, BJJ, Judoka, Sambo, Shoot wrestlers, and various hybrids all compete.  Its one of the crown jewels, if not THE crown jewel of competitive grappling.

ADCC Submission Wrestling World Championship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Those vary from person to person regardless of MA of choice. Not everyone practicing Aikido has the same goals, mindset, or motivation for example.


Except the founders teaching of Aikido set the goals, mindset, and motivation.  It draws a certain type of person for example when the founder says things like this it doesn't really lend itself to competition or fighting in MMA.
"Aikido is not an art to fight with enemies and defeat them. It is a way to lead all human beings to live in harmony with each other as though everyone were one family. The secret of aikido is to make yourself become one with the universe and to go along with its natural movements. One who has attained this secret holds the universe in him/herself and can say, "I am the universe.""


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## ballen0351

Drew Ahn-Kim said:


> ADCC is the Abu Dhabi Combat Club Submission Wrestling World Championship, funded by the Sheikh of UAE, it's a grappling tournament open to any style and has seen Wrestlers, BJJ, Judoka, Sambo, Shoot wrestlers, and various hybrids all compete.  Its one of the crown jewels, if not THE crown jewel of competitive grappling.
> 
> ADCC Submission Wrestling World Championship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


AHH ok I don't play grappling games so I've never heard of it


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## Drew Ahn-Kim

*"I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine."
Bruce Lee*

Hanzou, I don't necessarily disagree with you, however I recognize that my mindset towards martial arts and combat are not universal.  I was raised in the shadow of a legendary grandfather, and competition was intrinsically linked to my relationship with Taekwondo and later Boxing, Judo, Karate, Muay Thai and BJJ.  This has been my path and its been what's best for me, but I would never attempt to suggest its the best for everyone.  Martial Arts and its various disciplines have so many different facets, and people have different motivations for taking part in them.  Ultimately I believe the most important thing in martial arts is the growth and evolution which they provide you as a human being, and that can take many forms.

There are plenty of students out there looking to learn about the most effective forms of MMA-relevant techniques, let them come to you and teach them what you know.

To Jenna (my sister's name by way), just focus on your own reasons for practicing Aikido, what your goals are, what you hope to achieve, and as long as its fufilling these aspects then you're five by five.

Happy New Year, and love to you all.  Let's keep growing and building.


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## RTKDCMB

ballen0351 said:


> well his explanation of wrist locks shows a lack of knowledge on the topic


His claim that it is impossible to catch a punch doesn't lend him any more credibility either.


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## RTKDCMB

ballen0351 said:


> Nope he knows nothing about Aikido to pass judgment


It's a common misconception that being an expert in one discipline qualifies someone to pass judgment on another.


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## Drew Ahn-Kim

Sorry to go to the Ryan Hall well again, but I think this speaks to several aspects of this conversation, as he discusses the idea of having a singular or perfect approach to grappling.


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## ballen0351

RTKDCMB said:


> His claim that it is impossible to catch a punch doesn't lend him any more credibility either.


True that's a better example to use


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## Tony Dismukes

Jenna said:


> I am undone by my lack of ability under my opponents guard or mount or inferior in strength and take a beating and am damaged sufficiently that I need to learn some lessons, yes? I am not certain exactly what lesson it is I have been taught or what action I ought to take??





Jenna said:


> I do not understand wtf they are doing there or trying to prove and what is the lesson to be taken from their actual asskicking or from my imagined one??



Hi Jenna!

I'm going to assume that Steve's reading is correct and your question is not anything to do with how Aikido might or might not work for you in an MMA fight, but rather what useful lessons you as an Aikido practitioner might learn from participating in (and losing) an MMA fight. If I'm incorrect in this, please let me know.

The answer to this really depends on your goals in your Aikido practice and what specific questions you might want to test in your MMA experiment.

If you are practicing Aikido as a vehicle for learning to live in harmony with others, then I don't think your MMA experience would hold any useful lessons.

If you are practicing Aikido for the sake of learning a traditional Japanese cultural art,  then I don't think your MMA experience would hold any useful lessons.

If you are practicing Aikido because you think it will make you a bad-*** fighter who can defeat other trained fighters in a challenge match, then your defeat in MMA will teach you that either a) you need to train more, b) Aikido is not an effective art for this purpose, or c) you have certain specific techniques or tactics or attributes that you need to adjust or improve.

If you are practicing Aikido for its combative applications in self-defense, then you may or may not have any useful lessons to learn from an MMA fight. Speaking as a non-Aikidoka who likes to watch the art, I can see legitimate self-defense combative applications for the art, but I don't think they're really suited for squaring up in a challenge match against a trained opponent. If you agree with that assessment, then you might not have any useful lessons to learn from an MMA fight. On the other hand, if you think that your Aikido has applications which should be useful against common MMA attacks such as a trained jab, cross, clinch, takedown, etc, then you would have the opportunity to try those out. If they failed, you would know that either your techniques weren't appropriate for that context or else you were missing something in your ability to apply them.


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## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Well according to you the topic is if there is an expert in Aikido in MMA not if Aikido would work in MMA



Bas rutten is the best expert we have so far.  

I mean at this stage i could suggest that playing the trombone will work in mma.  

I


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## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> His claim that it is impossible to catch a punch doesn't lend him any more credibility either.



It is pretty near impossible to catch a punch. 

That is not the training.  You just cant do it with any reliability.


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## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> It is pretty near impossible to catch a punch.
> 
> That is not the training. You just cant do it with any reliability.


If you don't routinely practice blocking skills then it would be pretty near impossible. For those of us that do it's not that hard.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> It is pretty near impossible to catch a punch.
> 
> That is not the training.  You just cant do it with any reliability.


Its also not Aikido you dont catch punches At least not like he was suggesting


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Bas rutten is the best expert we have so far.
> 
> I mean at this stage i could suggest that playing the trombone will work in mma.
> 
> I


trombones are against the rules so no


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Except the founders teaching of Aikido set the goals, mindset, and motivation.  It draws a certain type of person for example when the founder says things like this it doesn't really lend itself to competition or fighting in MMA.
> "Aikido is not an art to fight with enemies and defeat them. It is a way to lead all human beings to live in harmony with each other as though everyone were one family. The secret of aikido is to make yourself become one with the universe and to go along with its natural movements. One who has attained this secret holds the universe in him/herself and can say, "I am the universe.""



Then please explain Steven Seagal.  That's an example of an Aikidoka who is all about fighting, except that he'll never put himself in the position to fight anyone.

Additionally, there ARE competitive versions of Aikido. Tomiki and Shodokan Aikido for example.

So again, that mindset varies from person to person, not style to style.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Then please explain Steven Seagal.  That's an example of an Aikidoka who is all about fighting, except that he'll never put himself in the position to fight anyone.


so he's a fighter that doesn't fight so then no he's not a fighter.


> Additionally, there ARE competitive versions of Aikido. Tomiki and Shodokan Aikido for example.
> 
> So again, that mindset varies from person to person, not style to style.


No your still wrong but thanks for playing.


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> so he's a fighter that doesn't fight so then no he's not a fighter.



No, he's a guy that frequently challenges people, beats women, has an ego the size of Texas, and bullies people smaller than himself. Yet he's also a respected Aikido practitioner and teacher.

In fact, I would argue that Seagal was a big part of the rise in Aikido's popularity. Why? Because his films showed him destroying people with Aikido, and he had an air of arrogance/confidence on and off the screen.

I don't think Ueshiba would be too thrilled about Seagal as a prominent representative of his art.

As for being wrong about competitive or sport Aikido:

Shodokan Aikido - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Jenna

Thank you each and every for your comments, it is helpful to read various opinions I am grateful and glad conversation can happen on its own.. hope I do not spoil it by interjecting.. x

@Hanzou, you said “If we are to believe that Aikido is a martial art that can be used in a fight, why couldn't it be useful for MMA purposes? MMA bouts are nothing more than sanctioned fights after all”, yes this is a point I had wondered.. I watch the videos and see debate on other places and you can correct me here.. there seem to be an underlying implication that from my envisaged defeat in a MMA bout, that it is just another nail in Aikido coffin and Aikido in its purpose as a defensive fighting art is almost entirely invalidated, does this make sense what I am saying, and is this the appropriate conclusion??

~~~

@Tony Dismukes, @Steve, yes thank you both also for understanding me what I am asking and for your respective inputs which have now got me questioning my self more than I started haha.. TO draw on both of your points, can I  pick up on this maybe..



Tony Dismukes said:


> If you are practicing Aikido for its combative applications in self-defense, then you may or may not have any useful lessons to learn from an MMA fight. Speaking as a non-Aikidoka who likes to watch the art, I can see legitimate self-defense combative applications for the art, but I don't think they're really suited for squaring up in a challenge match against a trained opponent. If you agree with that assessment, then you might not have any useful lessons to learn from an MMA fight. On the other hand, if you think that your Aikido has applications which should be useful against common MMA attacks such as a trained jab, cross, clinch, takedown, etc, then you would have the opportunity to try those out. If they failed, you would know that either your techniques weren't appropriate for that context or else you were missing something in your ability to apply them.



Yes I concede this for me at least that I would likely fare poorly in a ring against a trained mixed discipline opponent, then again I am not ever going in that ring so that is not a concern, the concern is can a similar situation ever exist in reality? I do not mean like a statistical possibility rather an actual likelihood? I mean I used my training only rarely in the absolute last resort where I have on more than plenty occasion reasoned, smarmed, charmed or cajoled my way through a threat or not been there for the perceived threat to happen.. like these are the realities for me, any way, fighting would not do in most situations I am in and but that is besides that point.. I mean I have never had to deal with any one proficient in MMA, or any other art in the course of my duties or responsibilities..

Like you know it is not yet proven at all to me –quite opposite- that I am deficient in matters of my own defence using my own wares, common sense, available tools, the help of others, and my Aikido as a failsafe, yet that very deficiency is the clear implication is it not of such an envisaged defeat in a MMA bout?? I am speaking through limited experience.. only having sparred ever against mixed discipline fighters for kicks and laughs and not for serious.. Do you follow what I am saying? I cannot match these two things up.. have I just been lucky not to have encountered the wrong person?? Thank you all so much Jxxx

~~~Oh I always liked Bas Rutten and but the whole Rutten / Steven Seagal mouthoff I recall from days of old I wonder does this perhaps render Bas' viewpoint more partisan than proven? x


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> No, he's a guy that frequently challenges people, beats women, has an ego the size of Texas, and bullies people smaller than himself. Yet he's also a respected Aikido practitioner and teacher.
> 
> In fact, I would argue that Seagal was a big part of the rise in Aikido's popularity. Why? Because his films showed him destroying people with Aikido, and he had an air of arrogance/confidence on and off the screen.
> 
> I don't think Ueshiba would be too thrilled about Seagal as a prominent representative of his art.
> 
> As for being wrong about competitive or sport Aikido:
> 
> Shodokan Aikido - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Steven wasn't that bad in real life I met him at a SWAT conference.  But I don't disagree with most of,what you said.  As for Shodokan Aikdio it's not the Founders Aikido.  It is a system based off Aikido but still different.


----------



## Hanzou

Jenna said:


> @Hanzou, you said “If we are to believe that Aikido is a martial art that can be used in a fight, why couldn't it be useful for MMA purposes? MMA bouts are nothing more than sanctioned fights after all”, yes this is a point I had wondered.. I watch the videos and see debate on other places and you can correct me here.. there seem to be an underlying implication that from my envisaged defeat in a MMA bout, that it is just another nail in Aikido coffin and Aikido in its purpose as a defensive fighting art is almost entirely invalidated, does this make sense what I am saying, and is this the appropriate conclusion??



This is merely my opinion, but I place Aikido (as a whole) in the same group as Tai Chi, Yoga, and similar pursuits. I don't view it as a fighting art, but more as a spiritual pursuit. You see this within Aikido itself where many of the art's pioneers complain about how much the art has softened over the years, and how the Aikido you see today is nothing like the older version of the art, which was supposedly much harder.

You take Aikido to cultivate your spirit, learn some Japanese culture, and improve your attitude. You don't learn Aikido to learn how to stop kicks and punches from hitting you in the face.

Aikido certainly has some self defense attributes, but every physical activity has some self defense attributes.



> Oh I always liked Bas Rutten and but the whole Rutten / Steven Seagal mouthoff I recall from days of old I wonder does this perhaps render Bas' viewpoint more partisan than proven? x



Seagal is a notorious trash talker, especially in Hollywood where he has a reputation as a weirdo and a bully. Bas isn't the only prominent MMA personality he's rubbed the wrong way. Especially after he popped up in Anderson Silva's corner dressed like a giant penguin and started talking about how awesome he was in MMA.


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Steven wasn't that bad in real life I met him at a SWAT conference.  But I don't disagree with most of,what you said.  As for Shodokan Aikdio it's not the Founders Aikido.  It is a system based off Aikido but still different.



LoL! So are you saying that Shodokan Aikido isn't "real" Aikido?


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> LoL! So are you saying that Shodokan Aikido isn't "real" Aikido?


im saying it's different.  Its "real" since it exists and has "real" people doing it But it was founded by Tomiki not Ueshiba so it's different


----------



## Drew Ahn-Kim

I'm so lost now, Steven Seagal is being used in an argument about an entire martial art?

Hanzou, is this really worth all the energy?  If you are happy with the martial arts your doing and have such certainty that they are the best or at least superior then why are you so concerned with continually trying to prove this point.  I'm trying to see things from your side as well but I just don't get your beef with Aikido, or rather your need to try and convert people to see it your way.

Does it somehow personally offend you when others hold opinions that are incongruent with yours in regards to what this Martial Art is supposed to be?  Is this somehow negatively affecting your life and ability to train your disciplines?  Is there some renegade group of Aikido players rolling up to your dojo/gym on a regular basis and leaving a mess?

But I'm not here to tell anyone what to do, what to think or what to type.  If this is somehow an important crusade for you that you feel must be carried out, while I don't understand the need for it at all, I have no problem with you following your heart on this one.


----------



## Buka

I box, I grapple, I kick, I clinch, I fight....BUT, if I were going to compete in MMA you know what I'd do? I'd go train in an MMA gym that specialized in MMA competition. If I went in having only trained in American Karate I'd get eaten alive. It's the same with any art. MMA is a specialized sport specific to it's rules and what's commonly used in MMA competition.

I'm the best Gin Rummy player I've ever met. I am also the most sought out poker player in my social circle because I lose every single time I play. One has nothing to do with the other when you are playing seriously or for money.

And, yes there are arts that, in my opinion, might be better for your base art on which to build a successful MMA career. But that would only be a base and would only be my opinion.


----------



## Drew Ahn-Kim

Jenna said:


> @Hanzou, you said “If we are to believe that Aikido is a martial art that can be used in a fight, why couldn't it be useful for MMA purposes? MMA bouts are nothing more than sanctioned fights after all”, yes this is a point I had wondered.. I watch the videos and see debate on other places and you can correct me here.. there seem to be an underlying implication that from my envisaged defeat in a MMA bout, that it is just another nail in Aikido coffin and Aikido in its purpose as a defensive fighting art is almost entirely invalidated, does this make sense what I am saying, and is this the appropriate conclusion??
> 
> Yes I concede this for me at least that I would likely fare poorly in a ring against a trained mixed discipline opponent, then again I am not ever going in that ring so that is not a concern, the concern is can a similar situation ever exist in reality? I do not mean like a statistical possibility rather an actual likelihood? I mean I used my training only rarely in the absolute last resort where I have on more than plenty occasion reasoned, smarmed, charmed or cajoled my way through a threat or not been there for the perceived threat to happen.. like these are the realities for me, any way, fighting would not do in most situations I am in and but that is besides that point.. I mean I have never had to deal with any one proficient in MMA, or any other art in the course of my duties or responsibilities..
> 
> Like you know it is not yet proven at all to me –quite opposite- that I am deficient in matters of my own defence using my own wares, common sense, available tools, the help of others, and my Aikido as a failsafe, yet that very deficiency is the clear implication is it not of such an envisaged defeat in a MMA bout?? I am speaking through limited experience.. only having sparred ever against mixed discipline fighters for kicks and laughs and not for serious.. Do you follow what I am saying? I cannot match these two things up.. have I just been lucky not to have encountered the wrong person?? Thank you all so much Jxxx



So Jenna, I think that you should realize that in an MMA fight, the person who's trained MMA is always going to win (this even includes taking a championship Boxer and lining him up with a UFC Champion.)  In your own personal life do you think you're going to run into that many trained MMA fighters who are going to get into an altercation with you, I would wager not, as they are rarer then you'd think and they generally don't have the desire to get into street fights.

In terms of your concerns that Aikido not being that great in terms of transferring over to MMA, that doesn't invalidate the advantages it gives you in the real world against a non trained opponent.  I'm going to link the interview below but as Ryan Hall says, you can always design a fighter that can beat any other person in an altercation, that doesn't mean anything that's just theorycrafting and fantasy.  I highly suggest you watch this, I think it'll help you out a bit.  I admittedly no very little about Aikido, but I have to assume its far better than knowing nothing, not just for the techniques but do to your mindset and awareness in conflict situations.


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> im saying it's different.  Its "real" since it exists and has "real" people doing it But it was founded by Tomiki not Ueshiba so it's different



But do you consider it a different form of Aikido, or a different martial art entirely?

My point is that just because Ueshiba had a view on Aikido, doesn't mean that that's the only way someone can express doing Aikido. Just like Kano had a very specific view on Judo, but all of his students definitely didn't follow that view, and the art diverged. That doesn't change the fact that all of those various forms of expression aren't still Judo.

My other point is that practitioners like Seagal, and competitive variations of Aikido like Shodokan disprove your earlier statements.


----------



## Hanzou

Drew Ahn-Kim said:


> I'm so lost now, Steven Seagal is being used in an argument about an entire martial art?



If you had been paying attention, I used Seagal as a counter example of the type of person Aikido supposedly draws to it.



> Hanzou, is this really worth all the energy?  If you are happy with the martial arts your doing and have such certainty that they are the best or at least superior then why are you so concerned with continually trying to prove this point.  I'm trying to see things from your side as well but I just don't get your beef with Aikido, or rather your need to try and convert people to see it your way.



Uh, Where did I say that what I'm doing is the best, or superior to what anyone else is doing? 



> Does it somehow personally offend you when others hold opinions that are incongruent with yours in regards to what this Martial Art is supposed to be?



Nope.



> Is this somehow negatively affecting your life and ability to train your disciplines?



Nope.



> Is there some renegade group of Aikido players rolling up to your dojo/gym on a regular basis and leaving a mess?



Nope. However, it would be cool if that happened at some point. It's been a long time since I got to experience a good old fashioned dojo storm, especially one where the stormers are wearing skirts. 



> But I'm not here to tell anyone what to do, what to think or what to type.  If this is somehow an important crusade for you that you feel must be carried out, while I don't understand the need for it at all, I have no problem with you following your heart on this one.



Again, where are you getting the notion that this is some sort of crusade? I'm merely answering Jenna's question, and debating with a few posters.

Your membership to this forum just started yesterday. I recommend that you take a breath, relax and stop posting Ryan Hall vids. No one is attacking Aikido (or any other martial art) here.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> But do you consider it a different form of Aikido, or a different martial art entirely?


I think it's contrary to Ushieba teaching.  So it's different.   


> My point is that just because Ueshiba had a view on Aikido, doesn't mean that that's the only way someone can express doing Aikido. Just like Kano had a very specific view on Judo, but all of his students definitely didn't follow that view, and the art diverged. That doesn't change the fact that all of those various forms of expression aren't still Judo.
> 
> My other point is that practitioners like Seagal, and competitive variations of Aikido like Shodokan disprove your earlier statements.


it doesn't disprove anything.  There are always exceptions to every rule it doesn't make the rule less true,  Generally speaking go to an Aikido Dojo see they type of people it attracts they are going to be different then they type of people in a boxing gym.  Not better or worse just different.  And the mindset and teaching of Aikido as was passed down by the founder is different then most other martial arts.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> No one is attacking Aikido (or any other martial art) here.


yes you are that's what you do every chance you get you attack other styles


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> I think it's contrary to Ushieba teaching.  So it's different.



Different what? Branch of Aikido or martial art entirely?



> it doesn't disprove anything.  There are always exceptions to every rule it doesn't make the rule less true,  Generally speaking go to an Aikido Dojo see they type of people it attracts they are going to be different then they type of people in a boxing gym.  Not better or worse just different.  And the mindset and teaching of Aikido as was passed down by the founder is different then most other martial arts.



Let's stop pretending that Aikidoka or traditional martial artists in general are some "enlightened warriors" while more modern or sport martial artists are "violent meatheads" looking for fights. Nothing could be further from the truth. You have jackasses on both sides of the fence. I've met plenty of people who practice certain "spiritual" martial arts who are pretty abysmal people.



ballen0351 said:


> yes you are that's what you do every chance you get you attack other styles



Where?


----------



## Drew Ahn-Kim

"No one is attacking Aikido (or any other martial art) here."

" It's been a long time since I got to experience a good old fashioned dojo storm, especially one where the stormers are wearing *skirts*."

Also this is clearly an extension of the locked post about Roy Dean and Aikido from the general forum.

With that being said, if I misinterpreted you and you aren't attacking Aikido then apologies, however that leaves me even more confused as to what the point of your posts in this thread and the other are.  But look, I've got no real ill will towards you at all, you're more than entitled to whatever it is you believe and are trying to do here.

I'll also overlook the unnecessary swipe you took at me in that last paragraph.  Today's my day off and I'm calm as can be, heart rates sitting at a cool 55 bpm right now and I'm drinking some nice coconut water.  And thanks for the suggestion to relax, I think I shall do that, a bit burnt out from SBG circuits and gauntlet BJJ from yesterday.  I may or may not post more Ryan Hall videos, who knows?!  

Its a new year I'm feeling great, I'm glad to have found this forum, and if I am in fact rubbing anyone the wrong way just message me.  I'm very secure mentally, and pride myself on having an open mind so I'm always willing to be "schooled" and come to a new understanding of things.  

"I hope that in this year to come, you make mistakes. Because if you are making mistakes, then you are making new things, trying new things, learning, living, pushing yourself, changing yourself, changing your world. You're doing things you've never done before, and more importantly, you're doing something." - Neil Gaiman


----------



## Drew Ahn-Kim

Hopefully posting quotes is kosher.


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> If you don't routinely practice blocking skills then it would be pretty near impossible. For those of us that do it's not that hard.



And this is the crux of the thread. Because you could throw some mma gloves on jump in a cage and do it.

If you want to know if you can catch punches or do akido moves,land tkd kicks,fight from guard. Mma is still one of the best vehicles to try this out and still let you walk away afterwards.

When we were discussing standing arm restraints. This is where I test mine. This let's the other guy practice his bjj,or punching my head off or anything he wants to work on. 

Competition becomes a different set of priorities again. Which is where Bas was going with his answer. The game changes at pace. Don't believe me? Then go try it out come back with your own results.

So the advantage of mma is looking at what is not the clutter of what should be.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Steven wasn't that bad in real life I met him at a SWAT conference.  But I don't disagree with most of,what you said.  As for Shodokan Aikdio it's not the Founders Aikido.  It is a system based off Aikido but still different.



Might have been different experience if you were a girl.


----------



## Drew Ahn-Kim

drop bear said:


> And this is the crux of the thread. Because you could throw some mma gloves on jump in a cage and do it.
> 
> If you want to know if you can catch punches or do akido moves,land tkd kicks,fight from guard. Mma is still one of the best vehicles to try this out and still let you walk away afterwards.
> 
> When we were discussing standing arm restraints. This is where I test mine. This let's the other guy practice his bjj,or punching my head off or anything he wants to work on.
> 
> Competition becomes a different set of priorities again. Which is where Bas was going with his answer. The game changes at pace. Don't believe me? Then go try it out come back with your own results.
> 
> So the advantage of mma is looking at what is not the clutter of what should be.



I am still confused about the crux of this thread, but if it is that then yes your right.  The only problem is most gyms I know of would not let someone with no prior contact sparring training get hit with kicks and 4 oz gloves, and if you do find a gym that lets you do this make sure you get a heck of a good training partner who both knows what there doing and has the accuracy and restraint needed to make sure you don't get hurt.  They still need to be throwing the punches in a fight realistic manner however, but put 50% on them like Nick/Nate Diaz' pitter patter punches.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Its also not Aikido you dont catch punches At least not like he was suggesting



No. But akido also don't seemed to have a layered defence either. And single tier concepts don't work well against trained guys.

So I throw a punch you block. Is layer 1.

I throw a punch you block,I use that block to set up a double leg,you you spraw,I cut a corner,you stuff my head. And so on is the level of complexity you need to achieve.

Normally here I would use a video of Jason scully who will show you fifty different ways to set up an arm bar. Which you need if the other guy has fourty nine ways of defending one.


----------



## Drew Ahn-Kim

drop bear said:


> No. But akido also don't seemed to have a layered defence either. And single tier concepts don't work well against trained guys.
> 
> So I throw a punch you block. Is layer 1.
> 
> I throw a punch you block,I use that block to set up a double leg,you you spraw,I cut a corner,you stuff my head. And so on is the level of complexity you need to achieve.
> 
> Normally here I would use a video of Jason scully who will show you fifty different ways to set up an arm bar. Which you need if the other guy has fourty nine ways of defending one.



So these techniques don't exist in Aikido, or rather they do exist but are never trained in sequences as reactionary chains/transitions as in Wrestling, BJJ etc.?


----------



## drop bear

Drew Ahn-Kim said:


> I am still confused about the crux of this thread, but if it is that then yes your right.  The only problem is most gyms I know of would not let someone with no prior contact sparring training get hit with kicks and 4 oz gloves, and if you do find a gym that lets you do this make sure you get a heck of a good training partner who both knows what there doing and has the accuracy and restraint needed to make sure you don't get hurt.  They still need to be throwing the punches in a fight realistic manner however, but put 50% on them like Nick/Nate Diaz' pitter patter punches.



You could pop in to our gym and do it. I have a mate in the sunny coast who spent a whole day of full contact sparring trying to see if karate worked. (Fully stanced up hands down the whole shebang)


----------



## Spinedoc

Aikido does have a layered defense….at least at higher levels, we train in Kaeshi Waza all the time. What happens when the first technique doesn't work or is reversed, and how can you reverse someone else's locks or throws. It may not be same as MMA, but there is a more complex, nuanced defense at work.


----------



## drop bear

Drew Ahn-Kim said:


> So these techniques don't exist in Aikido, or rather they do exist but are never trained in sequences as reactionary chains/transitions as in Wrestling, BJJ etc.?



As far as I have seen yes. This changes the perception of what is high percentage.


----------



## drop bear

Spinedoc said:


> Aikido does have a layered defense….at least at higher levels, we train in Kaeshi Waza all the time. What happens when the first technique doesn't work or is reversed, and how can you reverse someone else's locks or throws. It may not be same as MMA, but there is a more complex, nuanced defense at work.



Do you have an example of that?

I will just go to the Jason scully demo to use an example of what I am on about.


----------



## drop bear

Drew Ahn-Kim said:


> I'm so lost now, Steven Seagal is being used in an argument about an entire martial art?
> 
> Hanzou, is this really worth all the energy?  If you are happy with the martial arts your doing and have such certainty that they are the best or at least superior then why are you so concerned with continually trying to prove this point.  I'm trying to see things from your side as well but I just don't get your beef with Aikido, or rather your need to try and convert people to see it your way.
> 
> Does it somehow personally offend you when others hold opinions that are incongruent with yours in regards to what this Martial Art is supposed to be?  Is this somehow negatively affecting your life and ability to train your disciplines?  Is there some renegade group of Aikido players rolling up to your dojo/gym on a regular basis and leaving a mess?
> 
> But I'm not here to tell anyone what to do, what to think or what to type.  If this is somehow an important crusade for you that you feel must be carried out, while I don't understand the need for it at all, I have no problem with you following your heart on this one.



There is an element that believes that overinflating the effectiveness of a training method is unethical. I agree with that mindset to a certain degree.

You can walk down the road of accepting all martial arts to far I think.


----------



## Drew Ahn-Kim

Just for some context building off the discussion of layered defense (and like I've said I can't say whether Aikido has this or doesn't since i haven't trained it) but here's an example of just how many layers of defense one has, often when they are still a white belt.  The first clip shows the 8 layers of guard which all manage distance and posture in various ways and you can move between them.  The second clip is a multi-faceted arm-bar defense and escape.

You can know all this and still get caught.  If Aikido does have similar defenses I'd be very interested to learn about them and see if they can be incorporated into my game.


----------



## Drew Ahn-Kim

drop bear said:


> There is an element that believes that overinflating the effectiveness of a training method is unethical. I agree with that mindset to a certain degree.
> 
> You can walk down the road of accepting all martial arts to far I think.



Edit: Drop we can discuss this later, I don't want to detract from this conversation about Aikido. I don't think you're wrong, I just think there's a little nuance.


----------



## Spinedoc

Here's an example of various Kaeshi Waza techniques being demonstrated by Nemoto Sensei. He is going slowly to demonstrate how to effect the reversal for the students in attendance, but basically it focuses on reversing a technique that someone else is trying to apply.





Here's another one showing iriminage. You'll note that the first several series, Nage simply executes iriminage, but then, uke reverses and throws nage. There are multiple reversals, and as you advance to higher levels you are expected to know these. I think at Nidan level you begin to be tested on them.


----------



## Drew Ahn-Kim

Will check these out Spinedoc.

Question: do you guys ever focus on grip fighting?


----------



## Hanzou

Spinedoc said:


> Here's an example of various Kaeshi Waza techniques being demonstrated by Nemoto Sensei. He is going slowly to demonstrate how to effect the reversal for the students in attendance, but basically it focuses on reversing a technique that someone else is trying to apply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another one showing iriminage. You'll note that the first several series, Nage simply executes iriminage, but then, uke reverses and throws nage. There are multiple reversals, and as you advance to higher levels you are expected to know these. I think at Nidan level you begin to be tested on them.



Beautiful.

Now when do we get to see that done to someone actually trying to take the Aikidoka to the ground, or trying to knock him out?


----------



## Drew Ahn-Kim

Spinedoc said:


> Here's an example of various Kaeshi Waza techniques being demonstrated by Nemoto Sensei. He is going slowly to demonstrate how to effect the reversal for the students in attendance, but basically it focuses on reversing a technique that someone else is trying to apply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another one showing iriminage. You'll note that the first several series, Nage simply executes iriminage, but then, uke reverses and throws nage. There are multiple reversals, and as you advance to higher levels you are expected to know these. I think at Nidan level you begin to be tested on them.



I definitely appreciate the fluidity of the technique, and certainly I'm not about to write it off without getting to train it or against it.
However do you not think that realistically the advancing attacks would look something like those in the first 30 seconds of this video?  Not even talking about changing the rules or making it a street fight, but rather if we just had the Aikido practitioner on offense give it 100% to try and reach the defender.






Hanzou, you better not hate on me using 3 Keenan Cornelius videos.


----------



## Spinedoc

That's not the purpose of Aikido…. We increase resistance as time goes on, but you will never see full on attacks like what Hanzou is espousing….... What's more, is most of the Aikidoka, I know, would quit before practicing like that. It is something that they have absolutely zero interest in. That being said, both videos were demonstrations of techniques. 

One of our other senior students and I will both practice FULL on, with lots of resistance, but our Sensei says when we practice it doesn't look much ike Aikido at all. More like a brawl with some Aikido techniques thrown in. Not to mention, we both have substantial previous martial arts experience, and most of the other students will nervously laugh when they watch us, and then ask when we work with them…"you aren't going to do that with me, are you?"

That wasn't the question. The question was about layers of defense, an Aikido has them. 

Here's the thing that I have noted with Aikido. It works….BUT….only against a fully committed attack. Someone who simply crouches and tries to jab or grab at you without committing. An Aikidoka would simply walk away. The whole purpose is to never fight……unless you have no other choice and someone commits to an attack. 

Most Aikidoka do not practice Aikido to fight….most of them never wish to..this is the part you keep missing. 

FTR, I'm practicing BJJ too, but not to fight. I'll never compete and have no interest in that. I'm practicing mainly to increase my fitness and it is offered right before my Aikido class so the time works…..

YMMV….


----------



## Paul_D

Hanzou said:


> Uh, Where did I say that what I'm doing is the best, or superior to what anyone else is doing?


I'm sorry, am I actually reading this correctly?  Your entire existence on this site has been to preach to anyone who will listen that what you do is superior to everything, and that anyone that does anything other than BJJ or MMA is wasting their time as it doesn't work.


----------



## Drew Ahn-Kim

Spinedoc said:


> That's not the purpose of Aikido…. We increase resistance as time goes on, but you will never see full on attacks like what Hanzou is espousing….... What's more, is most of the Aikidoka, I know, would quit before practicing like that. It is something that they have absolutely zero interest in. That being said, both videos were demonstrations of techniques.
> 
> One of our other senior students and I will both practice FULL on, with lots of resistance, but our Sensei says when we practice it doesn't look much ike Aikido at all. More like a brawl with some Aikido techniques thrown in. Not to mention, we both have substantial previous martial arts experience, and most of the other students will nervously laugh when they watch us, and then ask when we work with them…"you aren't going to do that with me, are you?"
> 
> That wasn't the question. The question was about layers of defense, an Aikido has them.
> 
> Here's the thing that I have noted with Aikido. It works….BUT….only against a fully committed attack. Someone who simply crouches and tries to jab or grab at you without committing. An Aikidoka would simply walk away. The whole purpose is to never fight……unless you have no other choice and someone commits to an attack.
> 
> Most Aikidoka do not practice Aikido to fight….most of them never wish to..this is the part you keep missing.
> 
> FTR, I'm practicing BJJ too, but not to fight. I'll never compete and have no interest in that. I'm practicing mainly to increase my fitness and it is offered right before my Aikido class so the time works…..
> 
> YMMV….



Oh I completely understand that the majority of Aikido do not want to fight, and I'm on the side of that being completely legitimate and ok.  I was just watching the videos you posted and actually saw some movements I thought may be applicable to BJJ so I was more inquiring if there was anything in the system to deal with that kind of pressure.  I've trained at SBG where they do a lot of movement based drills which have nothing to do with actual combat scenarios, but they sort of act as a glue between your striking skills and takedowns.  I'm just sort of off the cuff wondering if training these movements could have a similar effect.

Don't worry man, I get it.  I didn't mean to make you feel like I was attacking the art, I'm very ignorant of what techniques you do and don't have, and my whole career I've been interested in finding things from all kinds of disciplines to add into my overall game.

Its all love on this side.


----------



## Drew Ahn-Kim

Paul_D said:


> I'm sorry, am I actually reading this correctly?  Your entire existence on this site has been to preach to anyone who will listen that what you do is superior to everything, and that anyone that does anything other than BJJ or MMA is wasting their time as it doesn't work.



That is ridiculous as there are countless instances of things in BJJ and MMA which the consensus was "these are esoteric and a waste of time to train" that are now common place.  That's also just ignoring the fact that not all martial arts are about being the best at fighting.


----------



## Hanzou

Paul_D said:


> I'm sorry, am I actually reading this correctly?  Your entire existence on this site has been to preach to anyone who will listen that what you do is superior to everything, and that anyone that does anything other than BJJ or MMA is wasting their time as it doesn't work.



Hardly. What you do with your spare time is your business. I have never called any martial art useless, or a waste of time. If anything I question their methods and their results, but that is hardly saying that something doesn't work or that someone is wasting their time.

The OP in this thread was curious about being an Aikidoka within a MMA context. The resident Aikidoka refused to give her a straight answer, so others stepped in to help her out.


----------



## Spinedoc

No worries man. We do train with resistance, and it increases with time, but that being said, it is a problem in Aikido. Luminaries like Stanley Pranin have for years extolled that we have to move to a more "live" training environment. Apparently it was very much like that in O'Sensei's dojo, but he softened slightly after WWII, and his son softened substantially more. 

The one other senior student and I that practice that way, feel the same. BUT, you won't probably find many videos of that. It's not as pretty. 

Additionally, because of the Ukemi involved in Aikido…..resistance is a funny thing. It needs to be there, and you need to increase it…but it must be done slowly. 

The two injuries I have seen in Aikido both resulted from a new or junior student applying to much resistance to early. One was a student who claimed he had practiced Aikido when he was younger, and I think had too much faith in his ability. He tried to resist during Ikkyo, and ended up planted on his shoulder and sustained an AC separation. Another was a new student who resisted at the wrong time during shihonage and ended up doing a full back fall…which he wasn't ready for and he sustained a concussion. 

SO, live training and resistance is important…but only once ukemi has advanced to the point where you can take the fall.


----------



## Drew Ahn-Kim

Spinedoc said:


> No worries man. We do train with resistance, and it increases with time, but that being said, it is a problem in Aikido. Luminaries like Stanley Pranin have for years extolled that we have to move to a more "live" training environment. Apparently it was very much like that in O'Sensei's dojo, but he softened slightly after WWII, and his son softened substantially more.
> 
> The one other senior student and I that practice that way, feel the same. BUT, you won't probably find many videos of that. It's not as pretty.
> 
> Additionally, because of the Ukemi involved in Aikido…..resistance is a funny thing. It needs to be there, and you need to increase it…but it must be done slowly.
> 
> The two injuries I have seen in Aikido both resulted from a new or junior student applying to much resistance to early. One was a student who claimed he had practiced Aikido when he was younger, and I think had too much faith in his ability. He tried to resist during Ikkyo, and ended up planted on his shoulder and sustained an AC separation. Another was a new student who resisted at the wrong time during shihonage and ended up doing a full back fall…which he wasn't ready for and he sustained a concussion.
> 
> SO, live training and resistance is important…but only once ukemi has advanced to the point where you can take the fall.



I do also imagine this sharpens your timing as well


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Might have been different experience if you were a girl.


perhaps....being surrounded by a few hundred SWAT officers may have had his attitude I check too.  But he was humble and polite


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> And this is the crux of the thread. Because you could throw some mma gloves on jump in a cage and do it.
> 
> If you want to know if you can catch punches or do akido moves,land tkd kicks,fight from guard. Mma is still one of the best vehicles to try this out and still let you walk away afterwards.
> 
> When we were discussing standing arm restraints. This is where I test mine. This let's the other guy practice his bjj,or punching my head off or anything he wants to work on.
> 
> Competition becomes a different set of priorities again. Which is where Bas was going with his answer. The game changes at pace. Don't believe me? Then go try it out come back with your own results.
> 
> So the advantage of mma is looking at what is not the clutter of what should be.


and the cage is nothing like real life so it proves nothing.  You do security work you see the difference between dealing with a dude high on PCP or Crack vs playing around in a gym.  Its a totally different animal.  Even when we say "no rules" in the cage or whatever there are still rules the opponent is not trying to hurt you or kill you especially in a training session.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Different what? Branch of Aikido or martial art entirely?


it's just different.  They can say they are Aikido and that's fine to me of you change the philosophy of the style away from the original then you changed the style. Its not "real" or not "real" it's just different 


> Let's stop pretending that Aikidoka or traditional martial artists in general are some "enlightened warriors" while more modern or sport martial artists are "violent meatheads" looking for fights. Nothing could be further from the truth. You have jackasses on both sides of the fence. I've met plenty of people who practice certain "spiritual" martial arts who are pretty abysmal people.


Never once said anything like that.  I said the Founders philosophy was different then other styles so it attracts a different type of person (in general again every rule has exceptions) I've trained at different Aikido Dojos and been to larger seminars and they type of person is just different then what I've seen and met in Goju or BJJ or MMA gyms.  Even at my Judo dojo there is an Aikido class at the same,time on the same mats they were just different.  Not better or worse just different 




> Where?


lol go read 65% of the posts you make all over MT


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> and the cage is nothing like real life so it proves nothing.  You do security work you see the difference between dealing with a dude high on PCP or Crack vs playing around in a gym.  Its a totally different animal.  Even when we say "no rules" in the cage or whatever there are still rules the opponent is not trying to hurt you or kill you especially in a training session.



I would say that the cage is closer to real life than this;





I have yet to see that happen anywhere except in demos.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> I would say that the cage is closer to real life than this;


and? They don't hold seminars in an MMA gym where the teacher demos techniques?


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> and the cage is nothing like real life so it proves nothing.  You do security work you see the difference between dealing with a dude high on PCP or Crack vs playing around in a gym.  Its a totally different animal.  Even when we say "no rules" in the cage or whatever there are still rules the opponent is not trying to hurt you or kill you especially in a training session.



Their intent dosent really matter.  We train to the point that the other guy is stopped.
.


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> it's just different.  They can say they are Aikido and that's fine to me of you change the philosophy of the style away from the original then you changed the style. Its not "real" or not "real" it's just different



Well even Ueshiba wasn't doing original Aikido towards the end. He was doing some bizarre ki-stuff where he was throwing people without touching them. Of course the reality was that his students were throwing _themselves_ without him touching them, but I digress.



> Never once said anything like that.  I said the Founders philosophy was different then other styles so it attracts a different type of person (in general again every rule has exceptions) I've trained at different Aikido Dojos and been to larger seminars and they type of person is just different then what I've seen and met in Goju or BJJ or MMA gyms.  Even at my Judo dojo there is an Aikido class at the same,time on the same mats they were just different.  Not better or worse just different



You didn't say it, but that's what you're implying. 



> lol go read 65% of the posts you make all over MT



I don't need to read my own posts, I wrote them after all. 

Perhaps if you could provide some examples?


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Their intent dosent really matter.  We train to the point that the other guy is stopped.
> .


intent does matter no matter how "live" you train it's not real you know your partner isn't going to harm,you on purpose.  There is a safety net.  I roll in class I get board i don't get any excitment because it's just not real.


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> and? They don't hold seminars in an MMA gym where the teacher demos techniques?



Of course. However, the demonstrations are never far off from their actual application.

Example, here's a Mendes Bros. Bjj seminar;






Pretty standard stuff.

The little full contact Aikido I've seen looks nothing like that Seagal demo.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> You didn't say it, but that's what you're implying.


i wasn't implying anything.  Every style has it's own philosophy.  That's why we tell everyone that comes here try as many styles or schools as you can see what fits.  Because  are all different


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Of course. However, the demonstrations are never far off from their actual application.
> 
> Example, here's a Mendes Bros. Bjj seminar;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty standard stuff.
> 
> The little full contact Aikido I've seen looks nothing like that Seagal demo.


and? Where you at the entire Segal class that day or once again are you taking stuff from,YouTube with no context


----------



## Spinedoc

Hanzou said:


> I would say that the cage is closer to real life than this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have yet to see that happen anywhere except in demos.



I would suggest that you don't really have any understanding of what you are watching. During randori, this is a common move that actually works quite well when you have people coming to try and grab you. We practice this frequently. Until you actually, I don't know….go to an Aikido class and experience this, your criticism is without merit.


----------



## Hanzou

Spinedoc said:


> I would suggest that you don't really have any understanding of what you are watching. During randori, this is a common move that actually works quite well when you have people coming to try and grab you. We practice this frequently. Until you actually, I don't know….go to an Aikido class and experience this, your criticism is without merit.



Well FYI, I have participated in a few Aikido classes. That brief experience doesn't change my observations; Aikidoka don't perform like that outside of demonstrations.

In fact, if you look at competitive Aikido, it looks quite a bit different;


----------



## Spinedoc

Hanzou said:


> Well FYI, I have participated in a few Aikido classes. That brief experience doesn't change my observations; Aikidoka don't perform like that outside of demonstrations.
> 
> In fact, if you look at competitive Aikido, it looks quite a bit different;




Of course, and, YET AGAIN… we don't practice with the thought of EVER competing. The techniques Seagal Sensei was demonstrating above work quite well when you have someone running at you in a bar, on the street, etc. Competition where everyone is facing off and ready and prepared for someone to use a technique is not the same. Aikido never uses or relies on strength, if you have someone who knows what you are trying to do and resists you…then you do something else. I'd kick him in the nuts, headbutt him, apply chin na, punch him in the throat, or try to break his knee. I wouldn't even try Aikido in that situation. BUT, when you have someone attacking you, who is not prepared for your response (doesn't know what technique you will use), Aikido is perfect. Aikido, as I have said numerous times, does not work unless you have a committed attack. Someone who is trying to fight you, but doesn't want to commit (IE; jabs, or trying to grab at you without leaning in)….a true Aikidoka would simply walk away from that. Aikido hinges around your ability to unbalance someone and control their center….the only way to do this is to have them commit to an attack, if they don't, you'll have to do something else, but it won't be Aikido. 

Again, you have your opinions….whatever. I could care less. My Aikido works just fine for me. What's ironic is, the BJJ guys I train with, are always asking me to show them different wrist locks, etc. from Aikido. Interesting that you have such a negative opinion. I won't waste my time responding to your posts anymore. 

FTR, Shodokan is not considered mainstream Aikido. This was Tomiki's brainchild, it is not the Aikido of O'Sensei, and is not recognized by Hombu Dojo.


----------



## Hanzou

Spinedoc said:


> Of course, and, YET AGAIN… we don't practice with the thought of EVER competing. The techniques Seagal Sensei was demonstrating above work quite well when you have someone running at you in a bar, on the street, etc. Competition where everyone is facing off and ready and prepared for someone to use a technique is not the same. Aikido never uses or relies on strength, if you have someone who knows what you are trying to do and resists you…then you do something else. I'd kick him in the nuts, headbutt him, apply chin na, punch him in the throat, or try to break his knee. I wouldn't even try Aikido in that situation. BUT, when you have someone attacking you, who is not prepared for your response (doesn't know what technique you will use), Aikido is perfect. Aikido, as I have said numerous times, does not work unless you have a committed attack. Someone who is trying to fight you, but doesn't want to commit (IE; jabs, or trying to grab at you without leaning in)….a true Aikidoka would simply walk away from that. Aikido hinges around your ability to unbalance someone and control their center….the only way to do this is to have them commit to an attack, if they don't, you'll have to do something else, but it won't be Aikido.



Did you watch the Shodokan vid? There were several instances of someone charging someone else. Not a single one did what you say in that Seagal clip.



> Again, you have your opinions….whatever. I could care less. My Aikido works just fine for me. What's ironic is, the BJJ guys I train with, are always asking me to show them different wrist locks, etc. from Aikido.



Of course they're asking you about wrist locks. Wrist locks are legal in Bjj competition, and are great submissions when you have someone in an inferior position. :shrug:



> Interesting that you have such a negative opinion.



LoL! What negative opinion? I simply said that I've never seen what Seagal is doing above outside of demonstrations.



> FTR, Shodokan is not considered mainstream Aikido. This was Tomiki's brainchild, it is not the Aikido of O'Sensei, and is not recognized by Hombu Dojo.



I'm well aware that the Aikikai branch of Aikido is the most dominant. My point was that Aikikai isn't the only branch of Aikido out there.

Here's one thing you won't see in the Shodokan branch of Aikido;






That's one of the top instructors at the Aikikai performing no-touch Aikido. What's more interesting is that there's videos of Ueshiba doing the same thing.

Do you feel that Ueshiba and Watanabe can actually throw or manipulate people without touching them?


----------



## Steve

Hanzou said:


> Well a good question to ask is why wouldn't MMA improve her Aikido?
> 
> If we are to believe that Aikido is a martial art that can be used in a fight, why couldn't it be useful for MMA purposes? MMA bouts are nothing more than sanctioned fights after all.


kind of, but I think pressure testing woul


Hanzou said:


> Well FYI, I have participated in a few Aikido classes. That brief experience doesn't change my observations; Aikidoka don't perform like that outside of demonstrations.
> 
> In fact, if you look at competitive Aikido, it looks quite a bit different;


shodokan aikido looks pretty cool, though.  That throw at :26 was badass.


----------



## Hanzou

Steve said:


> shodokan aikido looks pretty cool, though.  That throw at :26 was badass.



I think Shodokan Aikido is very cool. I'd like to see it spread a bit wider and become more popular.


----------



## drop bear

Spinedoc said:


> Of course, and, YET AGAIN… we don't practice with the thought of EVER competing. The techniques Seagal Sensei was demonstrating above work quite well when you have someone running at you in a bar, on the street, etc



Then why dosent it work in a competition? What do you think makes the difference there.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Then why dosent it work in a competition? What do you think makes the difference there.


who says it doesn't?


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> who says it doesn't?



Everybody so far.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> intent does matter no matter how "live" you train it's not real you know your partner isn't going to harm,you on purpose.  There is a safety net.  I roll in class I get board i don't get any excitment because it's just not real.



That is two different issues if you get bored in training that is on you. 

But proof that a method works can be done in training. Regardless whether someone wants to kill you or not. Because you can take a person to the point that they can't kill you even if they wanted to.

If I have someone in a submission hold it is not reliant on their intent.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Everybody so far.


How many that actually train Aikido and know what he was even doing in the demo?


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> How many that actually train Aikido and know what he was even doing in the demo?



In a discussion of two people one of them. Which is why I asked the question.

It wasn't a demo. It was a competition.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> That is two different issues if you get bored in training that is on you.


Its boring because its not real its a game its fake its practice


> But proof that a method works can be done in training.


Of course it can to a point thats why we train


> Regardless whether someone wants to kill you or not. Because you can take a person to the point that they can't kill you even if they wanted to.


Its alot easier to get them there if they have no intention to hurt you in the first place


> If I have someone in a submission hold it is not reliant on their intent.


Sure Im talking about getting them to the submission in the first place.  No matter how you slice it training isnt real


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> It wasn't a demo. It was a competition.


Umm you commented on Spinedocs post about Seagal's DEMONSTRATION


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Its boring because its not real its a game its fake its practice
> 
> Of course it can to a point thats why we train
> 
> Its alot easier to get them there if they have no intention to hurt you in the first place
> 
> Sure Im talking about getting them to the submission in the first place.  No matter how you slice it training isnt real



The guys I train with are a lot harder to deal with than the guys I generally fight.  Because intent only gets you so far. Wanting to kill a guy really is only an advantage if you are winning.







If you get nailed your intent goes out the window. Hopefully you have trained to fight on.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> The guys I train with are a lot harder to deal with than the guys I generally fight.  Because intent only gets you so far. Wanting to kill a guy really is only an advantage if you are winning.


Must not have many PCP users there huh?




> If you get nailed your intent goes out the window. Hopefully you have trained to fight on.


Been a cop for 15 years been "Nailed" plenty


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Must not have many PCP users there huh?
> Been a cop for 15 years been "Nailed" plenty



Mostly steroids and ice here. 

Otherwise look that is fine. But bad intentions don't make you any tougher than any other intentions.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Mostly steroids and ice here.
> 
> Otherwise look that is fine. But bad intentions don't make you any tougher than any other intentions.


Spoken like a man thats never faced someone with bad intentions......


----------



## drop bear

I have faced guys with bad intentions. They were generally not very technically proficient or very tough.

OK I know I have been sort of pushing this point. But I have found the ultimate example of the trained guy vs the bad intentions guy.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> I have faced guys with bad intentions. They were generally not very technically proficient or very tough.
> 
> OK I know I have been sort of pushing this point. But I have found the ultimate example of the trained guy vs the bad intentions guy.


NO that is not a guy with bad intention that was a sport fight with rules and a ref and corner men and time limits etc..
We will just have to disagree because you will never convince me guys in your gym are as evil, violent, under some type of narcotic as you will run into on the street.  I'm not talking about some drunk knucklehead  at a bar looking for a fight I'm talking real bad dudes.  Thankfully these guys are rare but they are out there and no matter how "real" you practice its not the same


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> And this is the crux of the thread. Because you could throw some mma gloves on jump in a cage and do it.


I can test my ability to catch punches in my own art just fine.


----------



## Jenna

Hanzou said:


> This is merely my opinion, but I place Aikido (as a whole) in the same group as Tai Chi, Yoga, and similar pursuits. I don't view it as a fighting art, but more as a spiritual pursuit. You see this within Aikido itself where many of the art's pioneers complain about how much the art has softened over the years, and how the Aikido you see today is nothing like the older version of the art, which was supposedly much harder.
> 
> You take Aikido to cultivate your spirit, learn some Japanese culture, and improve your attitude. You don't learn Aikido to learn how to stop kicks and punches from hitting you in the face.
> 
> Aikido certainly has some self defense attributes, but every physical activity has some self defense attributes.


Well of course yes opinion is all I am asking and since you do not seem to be much a fan of Aikido and nor do you seem too histrionic over defending your art in your posts then I reason perhaps your perspective is useful.. You liken Aikido to Tai Chi and Yoga and I understand how you mean this, though as we know -I hope- both are more complex and extensive systems than we witness on "suppleness for girly girls and old folks" videos.. still, I know how you mean this.. 

When you say the art is softened, I can understand what you must be seeing and this make sense yes.. I would only suggest the art is the art, the art cannot be hard or soft, it is the application which has come from a certain training that determine its denseness or flow.. like you can make your own art hard or soft if that is how you were always taught or trained yes? That is never how I trained though perhaps that is why we were kicked out.. What maybe you see as softened yes, this is Roly Poly Aikido of the internet and friendly dojos and this to my opinion is a complete error of teaching.. I can explain the dynamic of this fyi though I do not much think it matter here as it is not what I was enquiring..

OK so it is an internet thing maybe or a male thing?? you can help me understand.. see me I have no stake in defending Aikido to any one for no minds would be altered and no purpose would be served cept to make clear I am insecure in my Aikido or to make clear I believe some thing of me is at risk, right? Yet people DO clearly feel that need to prove or defend their Aikido or other art to the extent they will acquiesce to peer pressures and step in a MMA ring where they ought not be because they are not trained for it?? Help me understand this.. Like what do they LEARN by this?? What am *I* supposed to learn were I to do this?? Has the MMA ring become the de facto official scientific proving ground for each art and therefore the arbiter of the validity or otherwise of each art.. is that correct?? then I get in the ring, get hammered and MMA declares Aikido useless and I myself run off and contemplate how I have wasted my life haha.. ???

I mean I have NEVER had to deal with a trained mixed discipline practitioner in a real situation.. nice people! and nor do I get how mixed training would assist me over Aikido to deal with an abusive father or unwanted advances from colleague at work.. it is like horses for courses.. does any of this make sense?? Anyway thank you for your kind reply I am grateful x


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> I can test my ability to catch punches in my own art just fine.



Yeah........ I say very tentatively.

If you are basically facing the same punches from the same people in the same sequence then you would be able to do some very clever things. 

But if the same punches are coming at you with quirky timing or angles you are going to struggle.

So I have done drills where my partner will throw a right cross at my head as hard and fast as he can. And I defend it with awesomeness. But I know exactly what is going to happen when.


----------



## Tez3

ballen0351 said:


> and the cage is nothing like real life so it proves nothing.  You do security work you see the difference between dealing with a dude high on PCP or Crack vs playing around in a gym.  Its a totally different animal.  Even when we say "no rules" in the cage or whatever there are still rules the opponent is not trying to hurt you or kill you especially in a training session.



Here, we have a number of doormen and women as well as police officers who fight MMA, they enjoy it *because it isn't real life*. They can train and compete without having to worry because there *are* rules which protect them.


----------



## Hanzou

Jenna said:


> Well of course yes opinion is all I am asking and since you do not seem to be much a fan of Aikido and nor do you seem too histrionic over defending your art in your posts then I reason perhaps your perspective is useful.. You liken Aikido to Tai Chi and Yoga and I understand how you mean this, though as we know -I hope- both are more complex and extensive systems than we witness on "suppleness for girly girls and old folks" videos.. still, I know how you mean this..
> 
> When you say the art is softened, I can understand what you must be seeing and this make sense yes.. I would only suggest the art is the art, the art cannot be hard or soft, it is the application which has come from a certain training that determine its denseness or flow.. like you can make your own art hard or soft if that is how you were always taught or trained yes? That is never how I trained though perhaps that is why we were kicked out.. What maybe you see as softened yes, this is Roly Poly Aikido of the internet and friendly dojos and this to my opinion is a complete error of teaching.. I can explain the dynamic of this fyi though I do not much think it matter here as it is not what I was enquiring..



Here's a good article for you to read. This is from one of the first non-Japanese practitioners of Aikido. He discusses how his art has softened over the years;

Is Aikido a Martial Art?



> OK so it is an internet thing maybe or a male thing?? you can help me understand.. see me I have no stake in defending Aikido to any one for no minds would be altered and no purpose would be served cept to make clear I am insecure in my Aikido or to make clear I believe some thing of me is at risk, right? Yet people DO clearly feel that need to prove or defend their Aikido or other art to the extent they will acquiesce to peer pressures and step in a MMA ring where they ought not be because they are not trained for it?? Help me understand this.. Like what do they LEARN by this?? What am *I* supposed to learn were I to do this?? Has the MMA ring become the de facto official scientific proving ground for each art and therefore the arbiter of the validity or otherwise of each art.. is that correct?? then I get in the ring, get hammered and MMA declares Aikido useless and I myself run off and contemplate how I have wasted my life haha.. ???




I can tell you what I learned from stepping in a MMA ring; How to defend against a trained person punching me in the face while I'm in guard, or how to punch someone in the face while still maintaining side control or mount. It was highly beneficial to me because it allowed me to apply my grappling against a trained striker. That's pretty important if I found myself in an altercation and ended up on the ground with someone trying to punch me in the face.

Again, an Aikidoka doesn't need to enter a MMA tournament to get that kind of experience. They can just go to a local MMA gym and spar some people and test their Aikido against another trained fighter. How does your Aikido work against someone trying to punch or kick you in the face? How does your Aikido work against someone trying to tackle you to the ground? How does your Aikido work against someone clinching you and trying to take you down? How does your Aikido work if someone is on top of you raining blows down on your face? 

Even if you get hammered, the knowledge you gain above is invaluable in my opinion, and it'll make your Aikido better. However on the flip side if you're successful, it'll make MMA better too. Which is why Aikidoka who shy away from such training truly baffle me, and leads me to think that they avoid such things for other reasons.



> I mean I have NEVER had to deal with a trained mixed discipline practitioner in a real situation.. nice people! and nor do I get how mixed training would assist me over Aikido to deal with an abusive father or unwanted advances from colleague at work.. it is like horses for courses.. does any of this make sense?? Anyway thank you for your kind reply I am grateful x



It's simple; If you can handle a trained fighter, then handling an untrained moron should be even easier. In my time in Bjj, I've sparred with college wrestlers, amateur boxers, MMA fighters, Judo and Bjj athletes, etc. After that, taking care of your fat, drunk uncle slapping around your aunt shouldn't be much of a problem.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> If you are basically facing the same punches from the same people in the same sequence then you would be able to do some very clever things.
> 
> But if the same punches are coming at you with quirky timing or angles you are going to struggle.
> 
> So I have done drills where my partner will throw a right cross at my head as hard and fast as he can. And I defend it with awesomeness. But I know exactly what is going to happen when.


You do know we actually spar don't you?


----------



## Jenna

Hanzou said:


> Here's a good article for you to read. This is from one of the first non-Japanese practitioners of Aikido. He discusses how his art has softened over the years;
> 
> Is Aikido a Martial Art?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you what I learned from stepping in a MMA ring; How to defend against a trained person punching me in the face while I'm in guard, or how to punch someone in the face while still maintaining side control or mount. It was highly beneficial to me because it allowed me to apply my grappling against a trained striker. That's pretty important if I found myself in an altercation and ended up on the ground with someone trying to punch me in the face.
> 
> Again, an Aikidoka doesn't need to enter a MMA tournament to get that kind of experience. They can just go to a local MMA gym and spar some people and test their Aikido against another trained fighter. How does your Aikido work against someone trying to punch or kick you in the face? How does your Aikido work against someone trying to tackle you to the ground? How does your Aikido work against someone clinching you and trying to take you down? How does your Aikido work if someone is on top of you raining blows down on your face?
> 
> Even if you get hammered, the knowledge you gain above is invaluable in my opinion, and it'll make your Aikido better. However on the flip side if you're successful, it'll make MMA better too. Which is why Aikidoka who shy away from such training truly baffle me, and leads me to think that they avoid such things for other reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> It's simple; If you can handle a trained fighter, then handling an untrained moron should be even easier. In my time in Bjj, I've sparred with college wrestlers, amateur boxers, MMA fighters, Judo and Bjj athletes, etc. After that, taking care of your fat, drunk uncle slapping around your aunt shouldn't be much of a problem.



Hey thank you for that article, yes I am familiar and also know Ellis to often appear easily irked and perhaps pedantic and but that is politicking and actually I agree with the points you would make by posting it and yes I would hold similar views often of how AIkido is erroneously practiced.. to me again though that is not to disparage the art, rather it is to justifiably deride how it is taught and how it is trained.. So ok I will try this once more and then disappear as I am frustrated by my inability to make the point.. if you do not understand me that is entirely my fault I apologise and but thank you for your reply, I appreciate your time and courtesy to me x

SO like personally speaking my Aikido is ok against the other disciplines, not super and but ok, I have had mess around sparring both mano mano and with weapon (MT and kali as well as plenty boxers) though I do not take it to any level because why would I?? 

Helped me to spot weaknesses and flaws in my art yes of course, that is common sense.. I was not persuaded to take up MT because what defence does core Aikido suggest to me against a flying knee.. no.. I have never had cause to need that.. and when actually would I in my every day reality??? so far never.. that is my point do you follow??

So I have survived multiple attempted assaults and actual assault situations three of which handled by Met Police bla bla bla and but never were these people martial artists.. THAT is a possibility only according to statistics and not real reality and so what will it really prove me in the MMA ring?? I am not ever going to meet these people in a situation where they want to harm me?? that is proven to me because it has never happened.. When physical violence HAS been visited upon me I do not automatically even WANT to pin the person to the floor it is like my father ffs.. and when I HAD to do that in another situation my Aikido was without fault.. does this not make sense?? What is now the lesson that I am beaten in the ring against trained multi-discipline opponent?? There ARE NOT MMA assailants any where that I am.. there is no such thing except in the fairy land of statistics.. are these MMA assailants a reality any where?? What is to be proven and to whose benefit?? 

SO like thank you again for your perseverance and courtesy I think you are a genuine person x


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> I have yet to see that happen anywhere except in demos.


I have already shown you that, in this thread. Probably from the same video.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Of course they're asking you about wrist locks. Wrist locks are legal in Bjj competition, and are great submissions when you have someone in an inferior position. :shrug:


BJJ has wrist locks, weird, awkward ones that aren't deadly:


----------



## Spinedoc

drop bear said:


> In a discussion of two people one of them. Which is why I asked the question.
> 
> It wasn't a demo. It was a competition.




Ummm, it wasn't a demo OR competition. It was an old video of Seagal Sensei conducting a seminar and teaching the correct way to throw in randori situations. Context people...context.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Here, we have a number of doormen and women as well as police officers who fight MMA, they enjoy it *because it isn't real life*. They can train and compete without having to worry because there *are* rules which protect them.



Here we have a number of mma fighters who become doormen. They enjoy it because it isn't real life and they don't have rules to restrict them. They can fight without having to worry about fighting a quality prepared oponant.


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> You do know we actually spar don't you?



I thought you didn't because self-defense or something.


----------



## drop bear

Jenna said:


> Hey thank you for that article, yes I am familiar and also know Ellis to often appear easily irked and perhaps pedantic and but that is politicking and actually I agree with the points you would make by posting it and yes I would hold similar views often of how AIkido is erroneously practiced.. to me again though that is not to disparage the art, rather it is to justifiably deride how it is taught and how it is trained.. So ok I will try this once more and then disappear as I am frustrated by my inability to make the point.. if you do not understand me that is entirely my fault I apologise and but thank you for your reply, I appreciate your time and courtesy to me x
> 
> SO like personally speaking my Aikido is ok against the other disciplines, not super and but ok, I have had mess around sparring both mano mano and with weapon (MT and kali as well as plenty boxers) though I do not take it to any level because why would I??
> 
> Helped me to spot weaknesses and flaws in my art yes of course, that is common sense.. I was not persuaded to take up MT because what defence does core Aikido suggest to me against a flying knee.. no.. I have never had cause to need that.. and when actually would I in my every day reality??? so far never.. that is my point do you follow??
> 
> So I have survived multiple attempted assaults and actual assault situations three of which handled by Met Police bla bla bla and but never were these people martial artists.. THAT is a possibility only according to statistics and not real reality and so what will it really prove me in the MMA ring?? I am not ever going to meet these people in a situation where they want to harm me?? that is proven to me because it has never happened.. When physical violence HAS been visited upon me I do not automatically even WANT to pin the person to the floor it is like my father ffs.. and when I HAD to do that in another situation my Aikido was without fault.. does this not make sense?? What is now the lesson that I am beaten in the ring against trained multi-discipline opponent?? There ARE NOT MMA assailants any where that I am.. there is no such thing except in the fairy land of statistics.. are these MMA assailants a reality any where?? What is to be proven and to whose benefit??
> 
> SO like thank you again for your perseverance and courtesy I think you are a genuine person x



Depends why you train. If you are focused on beating an assailant who attacks you on the street then fair enough. (Sort of)

If you are interested in how martial arts works from a pull it apart and play with it level then you might want to take it into competitions against trained guys.


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> BJJ has wrist locks, weird, awkward ones that aren't deadly:



Uh, there's nothing awkward about what Keenan was doing, and they have just as much chance of snapping your wrist as other types of wrist locks.

You also need to go old school;






I've also personally experienced this one, and can attest to how much it sucks;





BTW, I hate that particular wrist lock because the over hook is a big part of my guard game.


----------



## mograph

I think that the OP is asking:
a) "in order to do well in an MMA bout, what skills would I need to add to my aikido skillset?"
b) "how can I learn those skills?"

Is that right, Jenna?


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> I thought you didn't because self-defense or something.


You just haven't being paying attention.


----------



## Jenna

mograph said:


> I think that the OP is asking:
> a) "in order to do well in an MMA bout, what skills would I need to add to my aikido skillset?"
> b) "how can I learn those skills?"
> 
> Is that right, Jenna?


Those are pertinent and interesting questions my friend that have also got me wondering too.. And but hey you know what.. I cannot now surely say what my OP was -must be these meds haha- though if you will tell me what would be your answer to these two questions in your experiences I will give you mine yes?? 

I am not by any means a MMA person and so cannot accurately say what skills makes the most efficient MMA fighter.. though from experience of sparring for kicks and laughs alone mind.. I would answer your questions like this..

..because Aikido is an wholly reactive art, in order to succeed in a mixed discipline competitive situation the whole entire dynamic would need to change from reaction to pro-active.. atemi could not be incidental or co-incidental.. would need to be deliberate and also -I believe- the ability to generate pain only through -and in direct proportion to- uke resistance to the shape of my pin or lock on him would need to be supplanted by a more aggressive seeking out of that pain.. that is how a match is won, by tapout or ko yes?? 

Also, Aikido has not concern for winning.. so.. I do not know what would have to happen here to succeed in MMA.. I can stop doing a technique on an opponent when they stop trying to harm me.. they dictate what have to happen.. I would need to change that in a competitive bout to beating them by over-coming them.. do you follow?? the change seem too subtle maybe to mean any thing in reality?? I do not fight to win.. I fight only to stop them fighting me.. When I start trying to win, every thing changes in me over what happen when I am free to use Aikido without external contrived desire to win.. Desire to win causes physiological change, testosterone and cortisol production to a perceived stressor which increase aggression.. check this abstract if you are a sciencey person http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513801001003 and so physiologically my mind is not the same.. for me personally -and perhaps other Aikidoka- I am straight away on the back foot like in unfamiliar place.. does this make any sense at all???

so I do not know at all what art I would be doing then.. would not be Aikido least not as I do it.. would be indiscernible swirling in the melting pot of styles.. at best there might in MMA exist a little space for assorted Aikido techniques like many of the JJ techniques already in there and are relatable.. 

Aikido in MMA is only hypothetical yes? as too great an alteration in mindset and intent would have to occur that would perturb -for me any way- the whole way of doing the technique.. So I think OP is maybe me putting a question why these Aikidoka put their selves in the ring at all.. by trying to imagine what I ought to learn from being trashed in my hypothetical MMA bout etc.. what are they trying to prove? and what lesson ought they learn from a drubbing? do you follow me at all?? I absolve you if you do not haha.. what do you think? Do you think these Aikido people are coerced into asking these exact questions you have thought out?? I do not know.. I see insecurity where I see this happening.. they are worried they are vulnerable maybe and do not like their vulnerabilities laid out for them??? Interested to hear thought from your perspective.. CMA yes?? Though now I am reading all of this I am thinking you probably did not want all of my thoughts haha.. oh well thank you for your contribution and for making me think some more about stuff xx


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> You just haven't being paying attention.



That happens. From memory you don't do contact or something


----------



## Tez3

There is no one style in MMA, fighters _cherry pick the techniques_ _that work for them from a multitude of styles._ I'm not sure why so many people don't understand this.
It's *MIXED* martial arts, it's true many fighters have come from a single style but they haven't just kept that style they have mixed it up with stuff that works from other styles. More and more these days we don't even have people with an original style they are learning MMA as a whole.
Fighters are matched well before the fight, they then use tactics and techniques to beat their opponent, it's irrelevant what the fighters main style was to a large extent*, the important part is what the style is now.*
If someone who practices Aikido fancies having a fight, they will have to go the route all fighters do...train MMA.
There are Aikido techniques that work in an MMA fight as there are many other style's techniques that work, that's what we do, take techniques, not the whole style.
Are there people who do Aikido fighting in MMA, could well be but like every other MMA fighter they will be using MMA to compete. It's a very simple concept, just using techniques from other styles to meld into your fighting style yet constantly people are saying this style or that style doesn't work in MMA, well no, no style does other than MMA. Would you take Judo to a TKD competition or vice versa? Would you take a rugby player and expect him to play rugby at a cricket match? Or would you want a swimmer in a F1 race? Of course not then why expect anything other than MMA in an MMA fight? Accept MMA for what it is, MIXED MARTIAL ARTS and stop trying to put down other styles.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> That happens. From memory you don't do contact or something


We do plenty of sparring, punches and kicks are thrown with full speed and power but with control, it is non-contact sparring. Of course that doesn't mean we never get hit.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Jenna said:


> I have seen Aikidoka hammered in an MMA ring..





Jenna said:


> Do you think these Aikido people are coerced into asking these exact questions you have thought out?? I do not know.. I see insecurity where I see this happening.. they are worried they are vulnerable maybe and do not like their vulnerabilities laid out for them???



I've actually never seen an Aikidoka compete in MMA. Where have you seen this? Were they a pure Aikidoka or just someone who had that as part of their background?


----------



## Tez3

I've never seen a single stylist compete in an MMA fight, it's not a viable match up so most promoters wouldn't go for it.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> I've never seen a single stylist compete in an MMA fight, it's not a viable match up so most promoters wouldn't go for it.



Why isn't it a viable match up?


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Why isn't it a viable match up?



What promoters are looking for isn't what fight teams are looking for, they want two fighters of equal strength and experience ( unless the promoter is doing something dodgy). Fighters might be looking for a quick end to the fight but that's the last thing promoters want. A fight that can go either way and lasting through all the rounds is the ideal. A KO at the end is also preferable but standing toe to toe bashing it out pleases the fans. Promoters want all fights to go the distance, it's a horror when they all finish early, imagine having 12 fights on the card and they all finish in the first round, that's a short evening and the paying customers aren't happy. The bar takings will be low and even if the fights were good, people pay to see the fighters go in all rounds.
So when matching firstly they look for local fighters, they bring in the most ticket sales, if you can get a 'name' that's good but most of all you want matched fighters, it's about putting bums on seats and having those seats paid for as well as bar sales. Promoting is very expensive, you aren't going to take a risk on a fight that maybe won't 'sell' to the crowd. That doesn't mean that a single style is no good it means that the crowd want to see MMA at an MMA fight night.


----------



## Jenna

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've actually never seen an Aikidoka compete in MMA. Where have you seen this? Were they a pure Aikidoka or just someone who had that as part of their background?


You mean you were unable to find videos supporting the assertion on places like Sherdog maybe that Aikido-primary-art participants are not viable in mixed discipline competitive situation? I do not know where that viewpoint arises from then?


----------



## Tez3

Jenna said:


> You mean you were unable to find videos supporting the assertion on places like Sherdog maybe that Aikido-primary-art participants are not viable in mixed discipline competitive situation? I do not know where that viewpoint arises from then?



My opinion comes from over 16 years in MMA promoting as well as training. I never rely on videos from anywhere. I know most fighters here and certainly know the trainers, we match fighters.
It's as I said before, it doesn't matter what the 'primary art' is, everyone has to train and fight MMA if they want to compete. No one comes into the cage/ring now with just one art so actually it's irrelevant what primary art you have.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> My opinion comes from over 16 years in MMA promoting as well as training. I never rely on videos from anywhere. I know most fighters here and certainly know the trainers, we match fighters.
> It's as I said before, it doesn't matter what the 'primary art' is, everyone has to train and fight MMA if they want to compete. No one comes into the cage/ring now with just one art so actually it's irrelevant what primary art you have.




I wouldn't say its irrelevant.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> I wouldn't say its irrelevant.



Agreed. For example, Kron Gracie, Ryan Hall, and Chris Holdsworth's primary art is Bjj, and it's pretty evident when those guys fight that they're using their jiujitsu expertise. Further, their high level of skill in their primary art can give them an advantage or disadvantage depending on who they're fighting.


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Agreed. For example, Kron Gracie, Ryan Hall, and Chris Holdsworth's primary art is Bjj, and it's pretty evident when those guys fight that they're using their jiujitsu expertise. Further, their high level of skill in their primary art can give them an advantage or disadvantage depending on who they're fighting.




Well, no it doesn't matter so much what the primary art is because they have to bring the rest of their game up to match. A fighter hoping to be successful needs to be well rounded not better at one thing than another. Of course it's obvious they are using their BJJ skills, and of course it can give them and advantage or disadvantage depending on who they are fighting, I said as much. It's one reason coaches choose opponents carefully at the start of their fighter's careers, it can make a huge different to the fight record if you pick opponents you know are weak at something your fighter is good at. Later on, if/when your fighter is getting to the top you have less choice over who they fight therefore by the time they've got to that point the fighter should have brought his lesser skills up to the standard of his primary skill.
These days though more and more people are coming straight into MMA and training the all around game, we have less single style fighters now than in the beginning, another obvious thing of course.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Jenna said:


> You mean you were unable to find videos supporting the assertion on places like Sherdog maybe that Aikido-primary-art participants are not viable in mixed discipline competitive situation? I do not know where that viewpoint arises from then?



Where does the idea come from that Aikido skills are not applicable to the MMA context? Two places, I would say.

1) In thousands of MMA fights over the last 20+ years, we've never seen anyone apply Aikido techniques.
2) From those thousands of fights, we've developed some understanding of what sorts of techniques and tactics seem to work in that context and which do not.

From my standpoint, that's not a knock against Aikido. When I watch high-level Aikido practitioners, I can see certain skills and attributes which I think could have combative application under the right circumstances. In fact, if I had a good Aikido instructor locally who was interested in swapping Aikido lessons for BJJ lessons, I would happily trade knowledge. I just don't think that Aikido would have a lot of useful application in an MMA context.


----------



## Spinedoc

Tony Dismukes said:


> Where does the idea come from that Aikido skills are not applicable to the MMA context? Two places, I would say.
> 
> 1) In thousands of MMA fights over the last 20+ years, we've never seen anyone apply Aikido techniques.
> 2) From those thousands of fights, we've developed some understanding of what sorts of techniques and tactics seem to work in that context and which do not.
> 
> From my standpoint, that's not a knock against Aikido. When I watch high-level Aikido practitioners, I can see certain skills and attributes which I think could have combative application under the right circumstances. In fact, if I had a good Aikido instructor locally who was interested in swapping Aikido lessons for BJJ lessons, I would happily trade knowledge. I just don't think that Aikido would have a lot of useful application in an MMA context.




Don't know about that. 




I will say that the way the majority of Aikido is practiced makes it impractical for MMA. That's different than saying the techniques don't work.

Certainly here's an example, although the second example was different than the traditional udekimenage, you still had the tenkan, and the lock.....just a variation.


----------



## Tez3

and that is the crux of the matter....MMA takes techniques from many different styles, it does not take the style. You don't see fighters starting the fight using karate, then moving to Judo then to MT etc that would be plain silly instead you see techniques from the different styles being used in a (hopefully!) seamless manner with technique flowing into technique. At least that's what is aimed for, not the use of styles but the techniques from styles[/QUOTE]


----------



## Buka

Hanzou said:


> Agreed. For example, Kron Gracie, Ryan Hall, and Chris Holdsworth's primary art is Bjj, and it's pretty evident when those guys fight that they're using their jiujitsu expertise. Further, their high level of skill in their primary art can give them an advantage or disadvantage depending on who they're fighting.



Yes, true, no argument here. But Ryan Hall has trained in a lot of things. And I'm sure Kron did all kinds of training with Dad even though BJJ is with-out-a-doubt his primary art.

Then look at Holly Holm. Her primary art is boxing, but she knocked out Ronda with a kick. A sweet one, too.


----------



## elder999

Friend, @Jenna -

There are a few things I have to say-just for you-some as a fellow aikidoka, though Yoshinkan, and one who has done *many* other things-some are just logical.
We'll start with the just logical:

MMA is a *game,* with tools, and rules for their use-much like lacrosse, where I could actually hit people with my stick, but couldn't hit them with it clasped between both hands....

Another example, though, that might be more apt: as a kid, I competed at skeet and trap-I was really good. Somewhere in my mom's stuff, there's a vest with patches for hitting 100,250, and 500 clay-pigeons in a row, with .28 and .410 shotguns....while I don't shoot trap or skeet much anymore (though I'll still have a go, now and then, and had to be told to stop on a cruise ship, because I was "in the zone," and trying to get a complete set of glasses, instead of  just the one) I *do* compete with my pistols-usually,for competition, I've used my .45s...

Now, imagine I'm standing there, trying to shoot skeet or trap with a pistol-not gonna do very well against 12 year old me with an itty-bitty (literally!) shotgun, am I? Oh, I've actually shot at clay pigeons with a pistol, and done okay, but it's not a shotgun-it's not the right tool for the rules-get it?

Aikido, in some ways, is much the same way-though, and I'll address this later, it does have some training idiosyncrasies that many practitioners and instructors don't recognize the reason for. It has some tools that might be-*are*-used in MMA, but most of those can be found in other arts, and are universal: human beings are built the same, and some techniques, when it comes to joints, are going to look the same, whether it's catch-wrestling, BJJ, jujutsu, judo or aikido.

Anyway, aikido isn't going to give you all the tools you need for MMA...or, arguably, other things.




 
How much atemi do you actually practice in your dojo? 
Do you even know for certain what O sensei meant when he said this?


----------



## Tez3

Buka said:


> Yes, true, no argument here. But Ryan Hall has trained in a lot of things. And I'm sure Kron did all kinds of training with Dad even though BJJ is with-out-a-doubt his primary art.
> 
> Then look at Holly Holm. Her primary art is boxing, but she knocked out Ronda with a kick. A sweet one, too.



Exactly, as Elder says MMA is a game, a competition, you train to beat your opponent and you had better had a lot of techniques you are good at in your arsenal. I am primarily a karateka but I have trained a lot of different styles to get he techniques I need/want from them. You have to train styles to see techniques, you don't just get them from watching videos.


----------



## Tez3

elder999 said:


> Anyway, aikido isn't going to give you all the tools you need for MMA...or, arguably, other things.



Despite what some BJJers think no ONE style is going to give you all the tools you need for MMA.


Perhaps, and here's a thought, that's why it's called MIXED martial arts eh?


----------



## elder999

Tez3 said:


> Despite what some BJJers think no ONE style is going to give you all the tools you need for MMA.
> 
> 
> Perhaps, and here's a thought, that's why it's called MIXED martial arts eh?



Aikido, perhaps, even less-so-no, that's not true; it's just that the tools that it give you that apply (and I'm speaking of things that aren't simply "technique") are difficult to realize and apply, especially in that context.


----------



## Spinedoc

elder999 said:


> Aikido, perhaps, even less-so-no, that's not true; it's just that the tools that it give you that apply (and I'm speaking of things that aren't simply "technique") are difficult to realize and apply, especially in that context.



Exactly, sensitivity to an attack, maai, timing, speed, balance, all things Aikido stresses. Nothing to do with a specific technique.


----------



## Tez3

elder999 said:


> Aikido, perhaps, even less-so-no, that's not true; it's just that the tools that it give you that apply (and I'm speaking of things that aren't simply "technique") are difficult to realize and apply, especially in that context.



If you look at what I said, and I didn't mention Aikido, it was that no one style will give you all the tools you need. How is that not true?


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Agreed. For example, Kron Gracie, Ryan Hall, and Chris Holdsworth's primary art is Bjj, and it's pretty evident when those guys fight that they're using their jiujitsu expertise. Further, their high level of skill in their primary art can give them an advantage or disadvantage depending on who they're fighting.



Kron still enrages me by "doing it wrong" from a mma point of view.

We have Tkders coming up the ranks flash kicking people.

So yeah being well rounded is important. But it does not make a persons primary style irrelevant.

@elder. Holly Holm was a kickboxer as well.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Despite what some BJJers think no ONE style is going to give you all the tools you need for MMA.
> 
> 
> Perhaps, and here's a thought, that's why it's called MIXED martial arts eh?



Um.......

Mma is one style that gives you all the tools you need?

And yet people still train in their primary styles.


----------



## drop bear

elder999 said:


> Aikido, perhaps, even less-so-no, that's not true; it's just that the tools that it give you that apply (and I'm speaking of things that aren't simply "technique") are difficult to realize and apply, especially in that context.




Fighters don't do akido. If you are 16 and you want to be a ufc superstar you will head in the direction that is the most likely to get you there.

So akido will not have its fair share of tough competitive guys. The class will cater towards that.

So even if akido has the tools it will not have the people. 

This is also the issue with Australia and mma. Brazil has bjj,America has wrestling, Australia has swimming and football.
(Sort of we do have world class muay Thai but it is a smaller group)


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Spinedoc said:


> Don't know about that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will say that the way the majority of Aikido is practiced makes it impractical for MMA. That's different than saying the techniques don't work.
> 
> Certainly here's an example, although the second example was different than the traditional udekimenage, you still had the tenkan, and the lock.....just a variation.


I think it might be stretching a bit to call those examples in the cage "Aikido". The techniques shown are not unique to Aikido. The entries into the techniques and the details of the finish and the flavor of the movement are not what I typically see from Aikidoka demonstrating those techniques. I'm not sure either fighter has an Aikido background. Nevertheless, if you say that you recognize those as ways you might try to use your training in that context, I'll take your word for it.

Either way, I would note that these are not tremendously high-percentage moves in that setting. The second technique (which you are calling udekimenage but I would consider to be waki gatame) I have only seen applied from standing that one time in MMA. The first technique (which you are calling sayu nage but I would consider to be closer to a cross between sukui nage and a tai chi movement that I don't know the name of) is vanishingly rare in usage compared to double legs, single legs, suplexes, hip throws, shoulder throws, foot sweeps, and leg reaps. I don't think these are rare in applications because fighters don't know the techniques. I think they are rare because they are hard to set up in that context.


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## Spinedoc

Oh Tony, agreed.....and I was not meaning to propose that everyone in MMA is using Aikido all the time. They frankly aren't....just that if you look, you can see examples here and there.

There was an interview on BJJ Talk with a "Budo Jake" and Roy Dean....they both discussed Aikido and the fact that both had yudansha level training in Aikido. Both talked about how much Aikido helped to inform and grow their MMA and BJJ skills specifically with timing, distance, sensitivity, etc.

The point is, can Aikido alone survive in MMA, probably not. Can Aikido help an MMA fighter by improving his skills, absolutely.


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## Tony Dismukes

Spinedoc said:


> There was an interview on BJJ Talk with a "Budo Jake" and Roy Dean....they both discussed Aikido and the fact that both had yudansha level training in Aikido. Both talked about how much Aikido helped to inform and grow their MMA and BJJ skills specifically with timing, distance, sensitivity, etc.



I can buy that. My background in Bujinkan taijutsu has influenced my interpretation of BJJ, even though I don't often use much of my taijutsu any more.



Spinedoc said:


> The point is, can Aikido alone survive in MMA, probably not. Can Aikido help an MMA fighter by improving his skills, absolutely.



There was a quote in an earlier thread to the effect that Aikido was really intended for people who were already expert in some other form of martial art. There might be something to that. I can look at Aikido and see elements which I suspect could help me grow and improve as a martial artist.  On the other hand, I see a lot of missing pieces and training methods which seem like they would be problematic for someone with no other experience.


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## JP3

I sort of agree with Tony, and my only reservation is about the thought of "intended," but I can totally buy the thought that it "worked out" that way, since O-Sensei was reportedely a truly dangerous guy in the military doing real-workld hand-to-hand badness to folks before going spiritual in later life (I apologize if I am offending my fellow aikidoka with my rough description, blame my Texas upbringing).

I started young with aikido (age 8, 2 years then) and then went off and did kick-punch for a long time, and came back to aikido after about 10 years in judo to get a grappling element.

I can totally understand how to use my aikido skillset as my basic "Go-To" to start an engagement (I'm not sparring, I'm only in training for the not so fun & ames of actual edefensive tactic stuff now), but only the basic-basics, get out of the way, get hands up, move around Bad Guy, get him a touch out of position and off-balance.

And THEN drop a big straight left, or leg kick, or haraigoshi or... You get the idea.


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## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> Well, no it doesn't matter so much what the primary art is because they have to bring the rest of their game up to match. A fighter hoping to be successful needs to be well rounded not better at one thing than another. Of course it's obvious they are using their BJJ skills, and of course it can give them and advantage or disadvantage depending on who they are fighting, I said as much. It's one reason coaches choose opponents carefully at the start of their fighter's careers, it can make a huge different to the fight record if you pick opponents you know are weak at something your fighter is good at. Later on, if/when your fighter is getting to the top you have less choice over who they fight therefore by the time they've got to that point the fighter should have brought his lesser skills up to the standard of his primary skill.
> These days though more and more people are coming straight into MMA and training the all around game, we have less single style fighters now than in the beginning, another obvious thing of course.



Well I gotta disagree here. It matters a great deal for example that Kron Gracie and Ryan Hall are high level Bjj practitioners because it makes up for their very clear weaknesses in striking ability. I mean, I suppose you could argue that it doesn't matter what the primary art is as long as long as the person is very good at it. However, that argument leads to another problem; Where's the fighter that is combining high level Aikido skills with MMA basics?


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## Jenna

@elder999 haha yes that figure quoted seems to vary with the quoter and who they are citing 70%, 90%, 99%.. I have even seen it extrapolated in discussion to 100% and but yes certainly when atemi is not taken merely for kicking or punching this esoteric quote translates a lot less koan.. You are Yoshinkan then your interpretation -with respect- I have no doubt would go differently from mine  I know Aikido men spend whole nights in the bar after dojo in debating this **** haha.. still, Aikido is just not the right thing to be wheeled out in its true flavours for a MMA fight, yes? Because like your lacrosse stick it is not the right tool for that job yes?? ok make sense..

What is the lesson to be taken I ought to know then in certain internet corners where a theme of arguments is.. "if Aikido was worth **** then why do we see no evidence of it in MMA?" this has me wondering couple of things caused me to ask if any body here knew what that might be about given the clear point you make about Aikido just not a method of best fit for MMA, like surely your point is the end of the question, why is the discussion some times -maybe in certain places less moderated more partisan- go like: "no Aikido discernible in MMA therefore most likely conclusion aikido = **** QED" ??  x


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## Jenna

Spinedoc said:


> The point is, can Aikido alone survive in MMA, probably not. Can Aikido help an MMA fighter by improving his skills, absolutely.


Can I ask please the above point sounding reasonable, why do you think there is not much display of Aikido technique in MMA fighting?? Some yes ok Rik Ellis -son of Henry- sadly passed.. maybe Aikido should have influenced Anderson Silva when Seagal was around if it were that useful at all in mixed fighting? and but Aikido in MMA any where is rare, yes? why do you reason this in light of your point?? Like if Aikido is useful against ANY opponent, why is it not evidenced that much -SPECIFICALLY Aikido I mean not mere technique from root arts DRJJ / JJ- ? why do you think this can be the case? thank you x


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## drop bear

Jenna said:


> Can I ask please the above point sounding reasonable, why do you think there is not much display of Aikido technique in MMA fighting?? Some yes ok Rik Ellis -son of Henry- sadly passed.. maybe Aikido should have influenced Anderson Silva when Seagal was around if it were that useful at all in mixed fighting? and but Aikido in MMA any where is rare, yes? why do you reason this in light of your point?? Like if Aikido is useful against ANY opponent, why is it not evidenced that much -SPECIFICALLY Aikido I mean not mere technique from root arts DRJJ / JJ- ? why do you think this can be the case? thank you x



Go find a mma school and find out. I have some theories but without testing them we will never know.

I can't tell you why this wouldn't work.




And it is the same thing I mentioned on other threads. Single layered defence. Too much time and space needed to execute moves. Nothing set up.

As opposed to multiple attacks vs multiple defences. And a positional progression that creates a result.





But I don't do akido.


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## RTKDCMB

Spinedoc said:


> Don't know about that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will say that the way the majority of Aikido is practiced makes it impractical for MMA. That's different than saying the techniques don't work.
> 
> Certainly here's an example, although the second example was different than the traditional udekimenage, you still had the tenkan, and the lock.....just a variation.


What happens when you don't roll? I think that illustrates why some techniques shouldn't be practiced with full resistance.


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## Tony Dismukes

RTKDCMB said:


> What happens when you don't roll? I think that illustrates why some techniques shouldn't be practiced with full resistance.


In this context "full resistance" wouldn't mean trying to not go with the throw once the arm-break was already applied. It would mean trying to not let the other person get you into the arm-breaking position in the first place.


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## Spinedoc

Jenna said:


> Can I ask please the above point sounding reasonable, why do you think there is not much display of Aikido technique in MMA fighting?? Some yes ok Rik Ellis -son of Henry- sadly passed.. maybe Aikido should have influenced Anderson Silva when Seagal was around if it were that useful at all in mixed fighting? and but Aikido in MMA any where is rare, yes? why do you reason this in light of your point?? Like if Aikido is useful against ANY opponent, why is it not evidenced that much -SPECIFICALLY Aikido I mean not mere technique from root arts DRJJ / JJ- ? why do you think this can be the case? thank you x



In my opinion, Aikido works best in a chaotic combat or street situation. Not in a controlled one on one fight situation. The are a few reasons for this. I have found that Aikido works best with a committed attack, not jabbing or dancing around, but committing to a punch, strike, or grab, and it works best when you can blend instantly and they don't know what's happening.

The one time I have seen Aikido in real life was when I was in the Navy. I was young, a bunch of us were at a party, and some dude was messing with another guys girl. Guy shows up, pissed off, and pushes his girlfriend out of the way and starts to throw a punch at this other guy, bam, guy throwing the punch flies into the fall and lands on his head...fight over. He was out cold, whether from hitting the wall, landing on his head...or simply passing out (he was drunk), I don't know. At the time, I didn't have a clue as to what happened, but now I know that the guy being punched used a kaitenage technique and it happened fast, in about half a second...it didn't look pretty like in demo videos but it was very effective.

However, this is different than fighting in a controlled environment in a one on one situation where your opponent is well trained, and won't easily commit to an attack. Additionally, he understands what you are trying to do and will resist (which opens up other possibilities).

I think we don't see much Aikido because of this. Additionally, to get to a level where you can comfortable execute Aikido techniques against a very skilled opponent at high speeds takes a long time. At least a decade. For an MMA practitioner, it would be a better use of that time to train in boxing, BJJ, Judo, etc.

These are just my suppositions.


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## Tony Dismukes

Spinedoc said:


> In my opinion, Aikido works best in a chaotic combat or street situation. Not in a controlled one on one fight situation. The are a few reasons for this. I have found that Aikido works best with a committed attack, not jabbing or dancing around, but committing to a punch, strike, or grab, and it works best when you can blend instantly and they don't know what's happening.
> 
> The one time I have seen Aikido in real life was when I was in the Navy. I was young, a bunch of us were at a party, and some dude was messing with another guys girl. Guy shows up, pissed off, and pushes his girlfriend out of the way and starts to throw a punch at this other guy, bam, guy throwing the punch flies into the fall and lands on his head...fight over. He was out cold, whether from hitting the wall, landing on his head...or simply passing out (he was drunk), I don't know. At the time, I didn't have a clue as to what happened, but now I know that the guy being punched used a kaitenage technique and it happened fast, in about half a second...it didn't look pretty like in demo videos but it was very effective.
> 
> However, this is different than fighting in a controlled environment in a one on one situation where your opponent is well trained, and won't easily commit to an attack. Additionally, he understands what you are trying to do and will resist (which opens up other possibilities).
> 
> I think we don't see much Aikido because of this. Additionally, to get to a level where you can comfortable execute Aikido techniques against a very skilled opponent at high speeds takes a long time. At least a decade. For an MMA practitioner, it would be a better use of that time to train in boxing, BJJ, Judo, etc.
> 
> These are just my suppositions.



I agree with this and would add a couple more ideas.

I think many of the standing wristlock/armlock controls (from ay art, not just Aikido) are appropriate as a sort of grappling "sucker-punch" equivalent in the "pre-fight" stage where someone is posturing, shoving, grabbing, and generally working themselves up to full fight mode. This "pre-fight" stage is common in real fights and in LEO encounters, but doesn't exist in an MMA contest.

I think many of the "grab my wrist" techniques from Aikido have potential application in a weapon retention context. If the opponent lets go of your wrist when you start your technique, then you are able to deploy your weapon. If not, you have a chance to apply your Aikido technique. In an MMA setting, you aren't carrying a weapon, so if you present a credible threat of using your opponent's grip against him he can simply let go and hit you.


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## Tez3

Now I'm not going to vouch for the Aikido of this chap because I don't do Aiki. I didn't know him personally but I know the person who trained with him in MMA. Rik certainly believed that there's room for Aikido in MMA. Sadly he died al little while back so we can't ask any questions of him. He is survived by his father and his son.

Aikido vs MMA - Blitz Martial Arts Magazine

<data:blog.pageTitle/>


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## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> Now I'm not going to vouch for the Aikido of this chap because I don't do Aiki. I didn't know him personally but I know the person who trained with him in MMA. Rik certainly believed that there's room for Aikido in MMA. Sadly he died al little while back so we can't ask any questions of him. He is survived by his father and his son.
> 
> Aikido vs MMA - Blitz Martial Arts Magazine
> 
> <data:blog.pageTitle/>


Interesting. His dad has a YouTube channel that has a number of Rik's fights on them. (Also some fights from another Ellis student). If any Aikidoka care to go through those fights and see if they can spot moments where some Aikido is used, I'd love to see them. I haven't spotted any so far, but I've only watched a couple of the fights and I'm not an Aikidoka.


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## Tez3

Rik's father is Henry Ellis 6th dan AikiKai Hombu, Rik's son also fights MMA and has studied Aiki with his grandfather.
It perhaps proves what people are saying, that one must study Aikido for many years to be able to take techniques from it and use in MMA. They won't, I know, have used Aikido as a style but certainly it's likely that there are techniques in there if it's possible to put them there.


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## elder999

Jenna said:


> @elder999 haha yes that figure quoted seems to vary with the quoter and who they are citing 70%, 90%, 99%.. I have even seen it extrapolated in discussion to 100% and but yes certainly when atemi is not taken merely for kicking or punching this esoteric quote translates a lot less koan.. You are Yoshinkan then your interpretation -with respect- I have no doubt would go differently from mine  I know Aikido men spend whole nights in the bar after dojo in debating this **** haha.. still, Aikido is just not the right thing to be wheeled out in its true flavours for a MMA fight, yes? Because like your lacrosse stick it is not the right tool for that job yes?? ok make sense..
> 
> What is the lesson to be taken I ought to know then in certain internet corners where a theme of arguments is.. "if Aikido was worth **** then why do we see no evidence of it in MMA?" this has me wondering couple of things caused me to ask if any body here knew what that might be about given the clear point you make about Aikido just not a method of best fit for MMA, like surely your point is the end of the question, why is the discussion some times -maybe in certain places less moderated more partisan- go like: "no Aikido discernible in MMA therefore most likely conclusion aikido = **** QED" ??  x



A couple of things, @Jenna :

1) What many fluffy bunny aikidoka (not saying that you fall into this camp, just dredging up an ancient, derogatory term)-what many aikidoka forget is that Ueshiba was extraordinarily strong in his youth to middle age, had studied a variety of martial arts, had hunted boar with a sharpened stick (!!), had been some sort of militray butcher in Manchuria, and had interactions with a variety of martial artists as well...his students came from a diverse background of martial arts.

So let's assume, for a minute, that when he said that "atemi accounts for 99% of aikido," he meant that *atemi accounts for 99% of aikido.*
Then take a look at the atemi that exists within aikido-it is not only not exactly representative of atemi waza-it is, in fact, it's modeled on sword striking...what we have in aikido atemi waza is a _symbolic_ strike and movement, meant to represent a person attacking, in order to enhance movement, timing, and blending. The assumption-in the beginning-was that the student, having studied other martial arts, would understand this, and have been exposed to real strikes in his other training.

(You'll see that "*other* trianing" is a continuing theme here.)

2) Aikido, as a way to "aiki development," is really meant for polishing an already competent martial artist with (ahem) other training.

If you ever are interested in any recommendations for additional training, PM me.....I'd recommend, though, at a a minimum, a striking oriented art like wing chun-I'm not talking about MMA competition, here, hypothetical or otherwise, I'm talking about making your aikido more useful-Seagal sensei (since he was mentioned earlier) regularly uses techniques-blocks and strikes-from his gung fu training as entries for aikido. He also does a few things that are size and background specific, just as you should:I've always assumed that you're somewhat petite.....

Some kind of groundplay, like judo, would also be a good fit......


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## Star Dragon

Hi Jenna,

While you might see something that looks a little like an irimi-nage (that is, the short version Seagal is famous for, without tenkan movement) in an MMA fight occasionally, the locks that Aikido heavily relies on (including techniques like kote-gaeshi and shiho-nage) are probably not very effective in the octagon, as a good fighter who knows what to expect and has trained for this could quite easily get out of them.


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## drop bear

elder999 said:


> A couple of things, @Jenna :
> 
> 1) What many fluffy bunny aikidoka (not saying that you fall into this camp, just dredging up an ancient, derogatory term)-what many aikidoka forget is that Ueshiba was extraordinarily strong in his youth to middle age, had studied a variety of martial arts, had hunted boar with a sharpened stick (!!), had been some sort of militray butcher in Manchuria, and had interactions with a variety of martial artists as well...his students came from a diverse background of martial arts.
> 
> So let's assume, for a minute, that when he said that "atemi accounts for 99% of aikido," he meant that *atemi accounts for 99% of aikido.*
> Then take a look at the atemi that exists within aikido-it is not only not exactly representative of atemi waza-it is, in fact, it's modeled on sword striking...what we have in aikido atemi waza is a _symbolic_ strike and movement, meant to represent a person attacking, in order to enhance movement, timing, and blending. The assumption-in the beginning-was that the student, having studied other martial arts, would understand this, and have been exposed to real strikes in his other training.
> 
> (You'll see that "*other* trianing" is a continuing theme here.)
> 
> 2) Aikido, as a way to "aiki development," is really meant for polishing an already competent martial artist with (ahem) other training.
> 
> If you ever are interested in any recommendations for additional training, PM me.....I'd recommend, though, at a a minimum, a striking oriented art like wing chun-I'm not talking about MMA competition, here, hypothetical or otherwise, I'm talking about making your aikido more useful-Seagal sensei (since he was mentioned earlier) regularly uses techniques-blocks and strikes-from his gung fu training as entries for aikido. He also does a few things that are size and background specific, just as you should:I've always assumed that you're somewhat petite.....
> 
> Some kind of groundplay, like judo, would also be a good fit......



Krav reflects that as well. Imi was some sort of multi talented kill monster.

Imi Lichtenfeld - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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