# Failed Testings and Demotions



## DuneViking (Jan 20, 2006)

I have had discussions where the sujbects of failing a test and getting demoted come up. Generally, the true test comes long before the testing and I will not recommend a student that has not already demonstrated proficiency. Testing is more of a formal demonstration. I can, however, see demotion as a tool, but then again, if that is where a student is going, it might be better to just show them the door, which, incidently, is one of the first lectures students get- This is the way things are, they are this way because they work. While we will listen and try to make reasonable accommodations for special situations, if you get bored, are more interested in what's on TV tonight, cant behave, etc... , there's the door. Do us all a favor and use it rather than make yourself and others unhappy. 

What thoughts do you have on the subject?


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## Henderson (Jan 20, 2006)

I have personally witnessed students having their belts stripped and given a piece of clothesline to wear around their waists when their performance has dropped from expected levels.

Frank


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## DuneViking (Jan 20, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> I have personally witnessed students having their belts stripped and given a piece of clothesline to wear around their waists when their performance has dropped from expected levels.
> 
> Frank


Wow, really!? Interesting. Thanks you for your post.


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## Sam (Jan 21, 2006)

Failing a test should be a possibility. I've heard instructors say that when they test you they are sure you will get it. I hope that my instructor has faith in me when I test. But I also think that it should be possible to fail. If you do terrible and forget everything because of pressure, you should have to re-test.

Demotion, in my opinon, should not be a possibility. Once you have earned something, you have earned it. Taking away a person's belt does not mean they no longer know the material. If anything its false advertising. A new student may think the person is less experienced or skilled than they are. Kick them out before you demote them.


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## DuneViking (Jan 21, 2006)

Sam said:
			
		

> Failing a test should be a possibility. I've heard instructors say that when they test you they are sure you will get it. I hope that my instructor has faith in me when I test. But I also think that it should be possible to fail. If you do terrible and forget everything because of pressure, you should have to re-test.
> 
> Demotion, in my opinon, should not be a possibility. Once you have earned something, you have earned it. Taking away a person's belt does not mean they no longer know the material. If anything its false advertising. A new student may think the person is less experienced or skilled than they are. Kick them out before you demote them.


Thanks Sam, 

I agree that failing should be a possibility. We usually handle this at a required pre-testing before the formal testing. Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Blindside (Jan 21, 2006)

The only test I've seen fail was a brown belt test, he gassed about half-way through.  

I've also seen a couple of demotions or temporary removal of rank as punishments.  On our certificates it says "this rank can be revoked at any time due to....."  



> Demotion, in my opinon, should not be a possibility. Once you have earned something, you have earned it. Taking away a person's belt does not mean they no longer know the material.


 
Sam, you are assuming that the ranking is only a measure of knowledge.  In the case of higher ranks it can also hold symbology as your status as an instructor or representative of the school.  Actually, the only demotions/rank removal that I have seen has happened to brown or black belts, quite frankly below that you don't really represent the school.  We'd figure out something else for an orange belt.

Lamont


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## TigerWoman (Jan 21, 2006)

We have had several who failed at testings.  Usually because a student just shows up to test without permission and puts the paperwork through.  The master doesn't see him until he gets to the table. I think there is where the student should be told to go home rather than take the money and fail him. If a student fails to break a board he is given two weeks to accomplish it.  But usually this can go on for a month or two for higher belts.  If too much is wrong in the test, he/she definitely fails and has to completely re-test. 

I don't think I have ever seen a demotion.  Usually when a student is not performing up to standards for his/her rank, usually colored belt ranks, he just stays at that rank.  If disrespect, fighting outside school etc., something more serious then they are suspended until they have shown they have changed.  Since black belts don't get promoted unless an arduous mental, physical test is passed, it would have to be a major reason to get demoted.  The master did say he took one black belt away for fighting.  Not that he physically got the belt, but that particular person wouldn't have been able to wear it in the dojang or our events. TW


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## Miles (Jan 21, 2006)

I've failed people (including my own son) but never have demoted anyone.

If someone almost fails, then I will promote them conditionally and tell them that they did not perform as well as I feel they can and that I expect them to train extra hard.

I have had students come back to training after a soccer/basketball/baseball season and forget their poomsae.  I tell them that at one time they knew it and I expect them to practice TKD at home all year round even if they are not coming to class. I will work with them outside of class to get them back up to their previous level of proficiency as soon as possible, but they still wear their prior rank.

Miles


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## Kacey (Jan 21, 2006)

I will not let a student test unless s/he is capable of passing - but not everyone who is capable of passing is able to perform appropriately under pressure. I have had a couple of students fail - one who lost it under the pressure of the testing - (she was testing for her I Dan, and went to pieces; she stuck with it and passed at another testing 9 months later - I am quite proud of her for retesting instead of dropping out, which is what most students would do, especially considering she was 17 at the time of the first testing. She still attends class as regularly as her college schedule will allow her - mostly on weekends and during school vacations. 

The other was a different case entirely; he was 12 years old and wanted to drop out, but his parents wouldn't let him. He was very capable, and would do a good job if pushed, but totally unmotivated unless performance was part of a contest - and he apparently did not consider testing a contest worth his effort. He tested for 2nd gup red belt and failed miserably - he made significant mistakes (like adding or leaving out movements) in 5 of his 7 patterns (all patterns, for all ranks, are performed at testing), wandered through his sparring and step sparring, and barely touched the boards he was supposed to break. There were other issues with the family as well (like tendency to not pay dues and to drop the student's younger brother off because he "wants to try class again to see if he's ready" - translation: we need a babysitter while we go shopping for presents). After I returned the student's testing form to him, his father asked to speak to me about his son could possibly fail - I went through the form and comments with him point by point - then I told him it was up to him and his son if the boy came to class, but that if he did come, dues were due that day; I never saw him again.

I have only demoted a student once, and it was a special case. I have a couple of students who have cognitive delays (IQs below 70), and one came to my class with a green belt (6th gup) from a McDojo and no memory of anything he had learned there - if, indeed, he HAD learned anything there. In addition to the cognitive delay, he also has cerebral palsy, and I suspect that the McDojo in question had no clue what they were getting into in accepting him as a student; he's the *only *person I am aware of who has *ever *been refused when his parents tried to renew his contract. After 4 years in my class, his knowledge was up to that of a yellow belt (8th gup) but his behavior was poor - emotionally and cognitively, he's about 6 or 7, and his promotions are dependent primarily on performing his patterns closely enough to be recognizable, as he is physically and otherwise unable to perform at any reasonable standard, but he enjoys class and works hard most of the time. However, he has a problem with social skills, and I had tried everything I could think of to get his behavior in line with class standards - especially to get him to stop trying to have conversations with the students around him during class, especially during class exercises. I was out of town for a week and left my senior student to teach the class, and his behavior for her was horrific - to give my senior student credit, I didn't hear about it from her, as she thought it was her fault for being unable to control it; I heard about it from a parent who was watching her child in class. He was demoted for failing to maintain class behavior standards simply because I was not there - and it's been quite effective; I took his green belt and gave him a yellow belt (more in keeping with his actual abilities, and leaving room to demote him again if need be). This was an unusual and isolated incident, and I have never demoted anyone else. It was extremely difficult for me, and I sincerly hope I am never faced with such a situation again.

There are isolated cases in which a student makes a greivous error and must be disciplined, but the error is not so greivous as to show the student the door - generally when there are extenuating circumstances, as in the case I described. I know of another incident in which a pair of students, who never really liked each other, got into a fight (and I do mean fight, not sparring match - it was quite spectacular). One of them left the dojang without asking for permission rather than risk the fight restarting. They were both 1st gup high red belts. While neither of them lost their belts, they were limited to lower rank (blue and down) techniques and patterns for 6 months, and were not allowed to test (despite readiness) for over a year, when they were supposed to have tested the next month - the year was to give them time to demonstrate the type of control over themselves and their emotional outbursts that is necessary for a black belt, which they eventually did, and eventually tested successfully.


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## arnisador (Jan 21, 2006)

We failed two people on a black belt board I ran. One took it very hard and dropped out of training (at least, in our system). It happens...I agree that only 'ready' students should be put up, but people can still freeze, and if your test means something, they have to fail.


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## DuneViking (Jan 22, 2006)

Kacey said:
			
		

> I will not let a student test unless s/he is capable of passing - but not everyone who is capable of passing is able to perform appropriately under pressure...
> The other was a different case entirely; ... I never saw him again.
> 
> I have only demoted a student once, ...


 
Thank-you for your stories. We do some things similarly. We have a pre-testing before any testing. This is really where the student fails or passes. The formal testing is more of a public presentation of the students new skill set, but I would have no problem failing someone with a terrible attitude. I have never seen anyone at our black belt workouts who tested have a bad attitude-we sometimes have gup ranks test at these workout too. I have had kids in our club classes have bad attitudes. 2 of our instructors had enough of him sulking for being passed over for promotion and I spent considerable extra time giving him private lesons, at no cost ( my personal philosophy on a case by case basis) and was to the point of letting him go. I asked to speak to his mother and found out there were of course 2 or more versions on the past months. Together, we continued to push him in the right direction to show responsibility and dedication and he slowly began to come around. He truely wanted to train-which was why he succeeded. Later he had an exchange program through his school and went to Japan for 2 weeks staying with the family of a Kendo Master there. As we hoped, this changed his attitude. His progress still varies, but he keeps moving in the right direction. 

Overall, I have not seen a testing failure in our organization, but then again, I have not seem everything. We tend to fail the students before the testing and explain why at that time. It has been said that rank can go down as well as up, but it has never been necessary to do more than that.


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## Sam (Jan 22, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Sam, you are assuming that the ranking is only a measure of knowledge.  In the case of higher ranks it can also hold symbology as your status as an instructor or representative of the school.
> Lamont



This sounds too much like taking away rank because of political reasons.
People who have been entrusted to teach or represent a school are chosen because of excellent merit. For the most part I cant see someone drastically changing. They have earned their rank and it is theres whether someone says so or not. I could rip up my high school diploma, or the state could - But I have nevertheless less earned it. If they are not representing the school well, remove them from the school. If they are not upholding the standards of instruction, fire them. (I'm talking about disrespecting students, ignoring codes of conduct... not political things. Politics shouldn't have a place in the martial arts. But it worms in.)

Dan certificates are earned just as kyu certificates are earned.


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## evenflow1121 (Jan 22, 2006)

Once a student has earned a belt or rank, well he or she has earned it.  I fail to see the concept where one that earns an orange belt for example is all of a sudden demoted back to yellow.  However, the door concept I like for several reasons, but not to write them all, let's just say it was the concept used at my studio, but more importantly than that it is a good way to keep students in line as far as what we expect from them. I totally agree with your concept, if you are in a studio to learn martial arts, well that is what you are there for, if you are not serious about it then not only are you wasting your time, but possibly everyone else around you. Individuals get tossed out of martial arts organizations because they fail to meet the requirements, but seldom have I ever heard them get demoted.

As far as failing exams, with higher rank comes more responsibility and proficiency, if the student lacks it then he or she should not be allowed to advance.  Even if you have gone through practice runs with the student, and believe the student is ready, the exam, is what counts. Thus, if he or she can not perform during the exam, they should not get promoted.


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## karatekid1975 (Jan 24, 2006)

I have never seen someone get demoted, but I have seen people fail, myself included. I knew my stuff, so I thought. But I "cracked" under pressure, and I failed. It happens. But the last test I aced. Go figure.


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## searcher (Jan 24, 2006)

The possibility of failing a test should be a reality and so should demotion, as long as it is not because of a poor performance.   I have failed students before and it was due to poor performance.   I have only been a part of 2 demotions and they had nothing to do with skill or performance.   Both were demoted for stealing from others in the school.  They were both demoted and expelled from the school.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2006)

Sam said:
			
		

> This sounds too much like taking away rank because of political reasons.
> People who have been entrusted to teach or represent a school are chosen because of excellent merit. For the most part I cant see someone drastically changing. They have earned their rank and it is theres whether someone says so or not. I could rip up my high school diploma, or the state could - But I have nevertheless less earned it. If they are not representing the school well, remove them from the school. If they are not upholding the standards of instruction, fire them. (I'm talking about disrespecting students, ignoring codes of conduct... not political things. Politics shouldn't have a place in the martial arts. But it worms in.)
> 
> Dan certificates are earned just as kyu certificates are earned.


 
I agree.  well said.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2006)

searcher said:
			
		

> The possibility of failing a test should be a reality and so should demotion, as long as it is not because of a poor performance. I have failed students before and it was due to poor performance. I have only been a part of 2 demotions and they had nothing to do with skill or performance. Both were demoted for stealing from others in the school. They were both demoted and expelled from the school.


 
kicking them out of the school for stealing seems to me to be the appropriate response.  I just can't see how you can take away their rank, however.  You can refuse to recognize them, and no longer allow them to be part of your school or organization, but if the rank has been given, how do you take it back?  Ask for their belt and certificate back?  If someone told me to give them back, i would not (at least not the cert., but you can easily buy a new belt).

The student has an obligation to not represent himself as a member of your group and not mislead people, esp. if he is teacher level.  But there is still a rank certificate with his name on it and that won't change.

Especially if someone is at instructor rank and he is kicked out of an organization, no one can stop him from teaching independently.  Nobody needs to be part of a larger organization if he doesn't want to.  He just needs to not present himself as part of the organization that he was removed from.  However, I think he can still honestly claim to have received his training and rank from the instructors, just be honest about his current standing (or lack, thereof) with the group.

Without the actual cooperation of the person being demoted, I can't see how this can be successful.


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## DuneViking (Jan 29, 2006)

When the subject of demotion came up in our club and organization, it was always in reference to performance of skills, honorable and respectful behavior in class, humility or lack thereof, and voluntary effort as well as diligence. It was also in the context of testing, noting that the student can go up-or down. :viking3:


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## Flying Crane (Jan 29, 2006)

DuneViking said:
			
		

> It was also in the context of testing, noting that the student can go up-or down. :viking3:


 
Is this also true for the teacher?  Could the teacher's teacher also demote him, and what if the demotion left him at a level that was not considered proper as an instructor?  Does the school suddenly become defunct, and all rank that he had given to students is no longer valid?

Personally, I think this kind of thing opens up a Pandora's Box of potential problems.  I understand what you are saying, and I can see the logic behind the idea of demoting for an overall decrease in performance level, but at what point does it end?  People could be going up and down all over the scale and it would screw up everyone's notion of where they stand, as an instructor or as a student.

I gotta stand by my position that once rank is given, it cannot be taken away.  A person can be removed from an organization but they still hold the rank, no matter what.


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## DuneViking (Feb 5, 2006)

FlyingCrane said:
			
		

> Is this also true for the teacher? Could the teacher's teacher also demote him, and what if the demotion left him at a level that was not considered proper as an instructor? Does the school suddenly become defunct, and all rank that he had given to students is no longer valid?


 
Theoretically, yes, the teacher could be demoted, but no, the ranks given out are not lost, because all testings are through the head of the organization, we just recommend for testing. 





> Personally, I think this kind of thing opens up a Pandora's Box of potential problems. I understand what you are saying, and I can see the logic behind the idea of demoting for an overall decrease in performance level, but at what point does it end? People could be going up and down all over the scale and it would screw up everyone's notion of where they stand, as an instructor or as a student.


 



			
				DuneViking said:
			
		

> . . . I can, however, see demotion as a tool, but then again, if that is where a student is going, it might be better to just show them the door, which, incidently, is one of the first lectures students get- . . .
> 
> 
> . . . It has been said that rank can go down as well as up, but it has never been necessary to do more than _...[say]..._that.


 
The idea is not to demote and promote, the idea is to make people think how they behave, especially at advanced ranks. Control also means for ego and respect and humility. Sometimes, rank swells the head over time and pushes other things to the side. This type of discussion is only meant as a gentle reminder of what it means to advance in rank, especially after first Dän. Here the most development hopefully takes place in one's heart, soul, mind, and spirit, becomming more humble and more respectful and more considerate and compassionate of others as well as honing one's edge physically. Learning from the head up, so to speak. Thank you for your comments, they allowed me to see the requirements for more detailed explination. It would be chaos to continually go up and down in rank, of course, but as a tool to make people think, it can be invaluable. 
:yinyang: :viking1:


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## TheBattousai (Feb 7, 2006)

Just my 2 cents:
Failing is something that happens at every good school (not a mcdojo). When people just don't commit themselves, they are doomed to failure in more things than just the MA. Demotions are different, I concur with most here on that they shouldn't have their rank taken away. But, I've heard of there "title" being taken away (never seen though), like the sensai or the kyoshi titles, but they can earn it back and there still whatever rank they are (i.e. Renshi at 4th bb, title taken or dropped to Sensai, but they are still 4th bb). The possibility of being kicked out of the school and no longer being recognized by the school is there, but only if something really bad was to have been done.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 7, 2006)

If a demotion were to actually take place, especially for someone who is at the instructor level, then it is probably due to politics.  I would suggest that the scrutinized instructor should probably read the writing on the wall and gracefully bow out before this happens.  Agree to mutually sever ties between the instructor and the school/parent organization, and let the instructor go is own way.  He keeps his rank because nobody can take away what he has learned and the skills he has developed, but he also needs to be honest with future students in telling them that he is no longer a member of that school/organization.

At the same time, I think it would be acceptable to tell future students that he trained with XX school or organization, and received rank from them, but he has since severed all ties and has no relationship with them.  Honesty all the way around, as well as recognizing and accepting the events of the past is appropriate.  There is no reason to pretend that the instructor did NOT get his training and rank thru the school or organization.


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## Yeti (Mar 3, 2006)

I'm a little late chiming in here, but I have seen two students get promoted and then have that rank stripped in the same day.

Duing a belt test, two blue belts were testing for red. Part of the test was of course, sparring. These two were opponents and were repeatedly warned by the testing board to watch their control and demonstrate the ability to control techniques up to par with their rank. After the 3rd warning they were asked to sit down. At the end of the test, they were asked to stand where they were awarded their red belts and then immediately had them stripped for not listening to the board and not demonstrating control. 

Quite humbling for both parties. In true MA spirit, these guys took the criticism to heart and worked especially hard before the next test, and passed that one with no issues.


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## Mr.Rooster (Mar 5, 2006)

Failed testings?   If you mean testing and not being promoted afterwards as a failed test I think that in itself is incorrect.
If we are talking martial testing, this ought to be looked at and told to the student testing that is a learning experience for them and a teaching experience for you and/or whomever else.    I think it's better to say they ought to test again because you have seen them do better in class time and you want to see that kind of proficiency for the test.  

As for a person being shown the door, I think that ought to only be for dangerous situations, not as a matter of not feeling like dealing with someone who may be experiencing growing pains.  Even we adult's have platau's we reach and/or ruts that we get stuck in.   Part of mastery is working through that/those times successfully.   I don't think we should be too quick to give up on a person/student and then expext them to trust/believe in us at the same time.   We, as Instructor's ought to lead by example more and show even more tolerance then a student we are supposedly trying to teach the same character intangibles to.   This also goes for peers, instead of bad mouthing a person behind there back or saying they are not putting forth the effort or whatever other negative scenario's you can think of that you may have observed/experienced in the dojo/dojang, try to always remember that we are all unique human beings, and we are unique for a reason.  Also, until you walk a mile in another's shoes, you have no idea what that person is going through so try to help and be supportive,  but don't be too quick to judge or give up on  a person just because you don't feel like dealing with it.  This is one of those things where I think your actions could speak louder then your words.  Remember, like I try to do, the way we act and react to things, is it accurate with the way we are trying to teach our student's as we ought to not be asking the student's to do something we can't or won't do oursleves.


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## stickarts (Mar 5, 2006)

For us, the true test for requirement material is done in the pre-test. The test is a ceremony, a chance for the student to show their strengths, and is a great diagnostic tool for the instructors to see if our program is working. If students don't do well on a test then it means we need improvement in our curriculum and / or teaching methods. On occaision if a student didn't do well, we would discuss with the student what needs improvement and then meet with them again in 2 weeks so they can re-do the requirements that weren't performed well in order to keep their rank.
While experience and knowledge cannot be taken away, we do reserve the right to cease to recognize someones ranking if they abuse what they have been taught. This is only a last resort. Good communication up front prevents most problems. Just the knowledge that ranking may be taken away has prevented problems.
This has worked for us but we are still always learning better ways and change is eternal! :0)
Good previous posts!


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