# Belt Rankings in FMA



## arnisandyz

When I was growing up, I never heard of a blue belt in FMA.  I worked out with my uncles and cousins and friends, and no one claimed to be Datu, Blackbelt, or Master, or anything.  We all had something to share, something we learned from someone else besides us, and we all had fun. I think ranking followed more like some of the Chinese systems of seniority, and who can fight better than the other.  

I never heard of blue belt in Arnis until I went to some Modern Arnis seminars. (nothing personal against MA)  I think it was part of Professor Presas "Modernization", using belt rankings from other systems he studied in an effort to organize an art that is sometimes difficult to organize. I thought it was only in TKD where I would see a 14 year old be called "Sir" by people that could easily beat him.  Belt rankings can be good (maybe), but when it becomes more important than the training, its not too fun anymore.


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## Bob Hubbard

I study MA.  I can't off the top of my head remember if we have a blue belt, or how many or such.  The "race for a belt" isn't an issue at our school.  Theres no "bi-monthly belt test fee".  You get it when you earn it.  It's not the "prize", its the knowledge and skill.  I've left schools where you would "buy your belt" (had a belt test in 1 where they walked me through every movment, it was that bad of a day, and I still got it.  Worthless)

I think the belts are there for those who "keep score".  My experience has been, the ones who know, do.  Those who can't, worry the most about their rank.  (I also have a problem with 10yrold black belted sensei's, but thats a different rant) 

:asian:


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## arnisandyz

I use the color "blue" as and example.  I don't remember either what belt color is what. And I use Modern Arnis only as an example because it was the first FMA I came across that used a structured ranking system.  In actuallity, it may be some of these FMA systems that don't use rank or take it seriously that are the cause of high ranking instructors without putting the time in.  For example, Some guy travelled all the way to the PI to learn from an "old master" with the best intentions.  That old guy sees money (times are tuff back home I here) and gives the person who wants rank what he wants.  Doesn't really matter to the "master" he just wants to feed his family.  Everybody is happy and gets what they want, until the newly ranked Guro or Datu goes back home and claims to be the highest ranked instructor of his style taught to him in the PI.

So it works both ways, corruption of the ranking system and/or people who don;t use it and don't really care.


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## Bob Hubbard

Ahh, ok.  I misunderstood part of your post.   Think I get it now.

:asian:


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## thekuntawman

arnisandyz wrote "For example, Some guy travelled all the way to the PI to learn from an "old master" with the best intentions. That old guy sees money (times are tuff back home I here) and gives the person who wants rank what he wants. Doesn't really matter to the "master" he just wants to feed his family. Everybody is happy and gets what they want, until the newly ranked Guro or Datu goes back home and claims to be the highest ranked instructor of his style taught to him in the PI. "

well this is how we now have all this datu and tuhon rankings all over the place. and words like dumug, and all those fancy ways to tap sticks together. i saw with my own eyes how some people came to a teacher and says "i want to learn kinomutai" and he said he doesnt know what that is. after i show him a magazine with that guy paul vunak, he understnad what its suppose to be, and then the next time he sees a group he's going to teach it.

when i first open my school in 1993, i called it "filipino karate kali". you know what sometimes you do what you have to do. but i still try to make the best quality student. (of course you guys know there is no "kali" in the philippines right?)

this is why we have to fight against bad information. my friend from the philippines moved to ohio in 1991. she only knows three sinawali, but as a stickfighter she can probably beat most men. for four years she cant even get a class going at ohio state, because she doesnt know espada at daga, a lot of sinawali, or "panantukan"! and she is one of the top  stickfighters in the philippines! some guy who knows a table spoon of eskrima probably walk away from her class thinking she doesnt know anything. so i will say it now, not all "FMA" has single double and knife and espada at daga, the stick does not "tranlsate" perfectly to the hand, and disarming a knife will probably get you killed!

oh and one more thing, the philippine martial arts was not dead in the philippines in the 1970s. and all the great masters of the fighting style is NOT in america! thats all busyit.


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## thekuntawman

anyway, about your topic. i think the belt thing is okay. i dont do it in my school, but i grew up in the tournament circuit for karate point style. its good to give a student something he can see that he is working for it. the belt also helps the school stay alive, so we can have more philippine martial arts around. but a child should not even learn many parts of eskrima (blades and nerve and veins, and bone breaking and separating), so how can he become an expert at such a violent art? maybe if there is a "junior black belt" which the koreans call "dan bo" that is a good idea.

i dont like form, especially for the philippine martial arts, because the moves you do in a form are not good for a fighters, but as a separate skill for kids, maybe thats okay to. but you have to spend to much time to do something thats got nothing to do with your fighting technique, which isnt so good.


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## knifeman.dk

Hi
In DK we (MA) use the following belt ranks wich are presented by GM Ernesto Presas: White, yellow, green, blue, brown and black
they are all rimmed with the "next" belt colour.
Our students don´t chase for belts, they practise to know the art, to protect themselves, to exercise, to have lots of fun, but some times it is nice to be able to see at what level they are. 
Especially if you have an instructor from abroad or from another system. 
sincerly:asian:


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## Toasty

Mr. kuntawman...
Exactly what is up with all the thinly veiled disparaging remarks regarding Mr. Inosanto?
Just wondering about the bitterness...

Rob


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## thekuntawman

toasty, i dont have any bitternes to mr inosanto. he is my first martial arts hero except for chuck norris.

my problem is with his method of teaching. i dont agree with the seminars form of teaching, and i dont agree with the length of training time for moving up, and i dont like the quality of instructors that represent his style. in my opinion, the whole world is looking to him for what is the philippine martial arts, and even though i like HIS skill, his students do not represent what can be produce by the philippine martial arts. the main thing is how they learn. they study from him a few times in a year and they practice by themself. if doctors study this way, there would be so many more dead people dying in the hospitals today. 

another problem i have that he can travel the whole world, but no stops in the philippines. my opinion why, is that in the PI, they challenge. maybe he does not want to find out there is no dumug schools, or panantukan, or pananjakman in the philippines. there is no kali (except for the people who teach americans and europeans), and it is not "the mother art". all styles do not have to have single stick, double stick, knive, and espada at daga. there is so many pilipinos around that know this, i cant understand why, even if he was told it wrong, why he still says these art exist in the philippines. 

now when a filipino comes to the US to teach, he cant teach his art. no, he has to offer 10 sinawali drills, a million disarmings, a whole lot of stick to stick drills, and stories about death matches, or people will think he doesnt know anything about the "FMA". you dont know how many country boys i know who studied the "FMA" for five years (or less) and he thinks he knows more than i do.

there is a lot of young filipinos in the PI who treat danny inosanto like americans treat bruce lee. why cant they get a visit. why do they read misinformations in the magazine, and then they challenge the knowledge of their own teachers who have less education and intelleigence. you know its not just manong inosanto i disagree with, but also the presases, bustillo (at least he is trying) and everybody else who certifies men they dont even known for more than 10 or 20 times.

the philippines martial arts is treated like a cheap art, because money can buy it, instead of sweat dedication and three years of your life. which is worth 10 times any amount of money.


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## Toasty

O.K.
First of all, thanks for answering my question. 
Secondly, i dont speak for Mr. Inosanto. but i do remember him saying at a seminar (at which i got a certificate of attendence, nothing more) that he has tried at least 3 times to get there, but it's not the easiest country in the world to get to you know, (especially now) in 2 cases there was martial law declared just as he wass leaving to go there - so no go  & in the third case his son (or grandson) decided to be born early, again; priorities you know.
He does have other commiments and pleasing people who say he should go to the phillipines cause he teaches the arts i'm sure is not high on his list.
Third, I know an instructor needs at least 50 hours a year (not including his own training time obviously) with Mr. Inosanto to even be considered for next level of advancement, with a minimum of 4 years in between "apprentice instructor" and "associate instructor". So i'm not sure what kind of "instructors" of his youve run into but i would guess they might be misrepresenting themselves as being higher than they actually are, but agan i have no way of knowing that for sure.
By the way, I'm not in the JKD group per se, but my Muay Thai instructor is an Associate Instructor with Guro Inosanto as well.
Nor do i train in the Inosanto Filipino arts (actually i'm a Balintawak Eskrima student), but i do go to the seminars he does cause its a tremendous amount of knowledge that he has.

with respect
my .02 
Rob


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## Cthulhu

I believe the fault isn't with Inosanto, it's with the people who attend seminars, take their little participation certificate, and market themselves as JKD instructors from that alone.  These people are EVERYWHERE.  It's not just with Inosanto.  I know of one fairly well known martial artist who did something similar with Kuntao-Silat seminars.

From what I understand, people like Inosanto and Willem de Thouars tend to ignore those who claim certification but don't actually have it.  However, if you ask either of them if a person is a certified instructor or not, they'd be more than happy to tell you.

I think there are simply too many dishonest people participating in this practice, so Uncle and Inosanto simply can't invest the amount of time it'd take to track them all down and expose them.  If you come across someone claiming certification under Inosanto, first check out their certification to make sure they are not a 'seminar baby', then contact the Inosanto Academy to verify.  It may be a bit of a hassle, but it's worth it to ensure you're getting legitimate instruction.

Cthulhu


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## thekuntawman

kapatid arnisandyz wrote ". Belt rankings can be good (maybe), but when it becomes more important than the training, its not too fun anymore."

this is what is happening to the philippine martial arts. it is not taught to produce fighting skill, its done to give rank. when you ask a guy about his training, he wants to tell you what he is certified in. maybe it isnt belts, but rank today is everything.

if you look at the well known teachers today, what do we know about them except who they study with and what organization he has, and that he will be in town next week. you cannot raise a child a couple of times a year, and you really cant train a martial artist a couple of times a year. 

if you use 2 hours lessons, 50 hours a year is 25 lessons. thats not much. rank is given to fast. people start teaching to fast. so fast that when a guy says "i been doing arnis for 15 years" the others go "ooh!". 15 years is nothing. my teenage brother has almost 15 years. 

okay, yeah its late and i am bored. sorry!


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## Bob Hubbard

I think thats common in many arts though.  With the number of political promotions, paper certs and self promotions, its almost imposbile to keep score.  Short of entering into competitions or just getting into fights, I'm not sure there really is a way to keep score right now.  There are many 4th degree black blets out there who have never hit anything more agressive than a pad, who think they can handle an army.  I think the wakeup call for some of them will not be pleasent.

:asian:


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## arnisandyz

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> "I think thats common in many arts though. "
> 
> 
> This is true, but many other arts have gone through this for many generations (doesn't make it right) and we are now just seeing it happen to the FMA in our generation.  I am not denying that political corruption lies in all things, but I hate to see it happening in the FMA.  The true practitioners will be able to see through the paper.  It seems that the ones that really care about FMA will show you thier skills rather than thier "wall".   If I were ever to study under or with someone,  I will believe their skill and reputation more than thier rank.  There have been to many "masters", "datus", "guros" that have so much rank, but not much talent.  Whenever someone comes to me asking about lessons,  i don't talk about my lineage, I put a stick in thier hand and let them see what I can do and i see what they know. Some have been better than me, some not, but in any case, we exchanged something more than paper and usually no one gets hurt.
> 
> This reminds me of a time I walked into a local TKD school that also taught Krav Maga.  I went into the school to pay respects and exchange notes, I  have heard about the style, but never have seen anyone do it well.  Instead of demonstrating and sharing, they sat me down in front of a VCR and played a promo video of someone else doing the art, then tried to sell me a 3 month plan!  I still have never seen anyone represent the art well.  With the popularity of FMA rising, this is the same thing that is going to happen.
> 
> Buyer beware.


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## thekuntawman

we have a saying, that martial arts skill cannot be demonstrated, only proven. in the philippine martial arts we do not have forms like in other styles, but we have a skill that many people use to convince other people that they have fighting skill. and that is drilling and improvising. people are now confusing coordination with fighting skill, so when a guy is trying to convince you to study with him he will say, do this drill with me. then he improvise and takes your stick, or shows you 10 different ways to do a variation. the student walks away, saing that guy was good! but he was tricked, because he didnt see the instructor fight, or learn his fighting tactics, he saw a demonstration of coordination and senisitivity. this is a skill you can develop without fighting skill. i can teach it to a 10 year old kid, and he can be the best one on this form, but not really a good fighter. but if you show him a technique, and train him to use it, even the biggest guy here might get a suprise from even a 10 years old kid.

i want to paste somethng my sister wrote on my website, but i have to do it in another post.


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## thekuntawman

this is from "instructors kali" on my site.

At the GFC, we do not believe in teaching full curriculums by videotape and seminar. Nor do we give our style and techniques to those who are not members of the GFC family. Our family does not recognize those certified through seminars and videotape until they have been proven to have earned their rank. Many of these instructors lack the dedication and technical foundation built by training full time. As a result, the level of quality is low overall in the Philippine arts, and those who practice the arts do respect their craft as effective and complete fighting styles worthy of committed study. The instructors who promote the arts, after having the same attitude, never reach the higher levels of the art. Their understanding of the art is at an intermediate level, at best--limited to their ability to regurgitate information by rote memory or improvised (AKA "the flow"). Any lack of ability to apply techniques leads those to dismiss those techniques as a part of the "discard the useless and absorb the practical" philosophy. Because of this, the Philippine art has been coupled with Indonesian Silat, Muay Thai, and many other arts. The deterioration of once-prestigious warrior's skills is sad; today men who are unworthy of carrying the title "Guro" are now recognized as leaders of a generation of lost warriors. The Philippine martial arts may soon take its place next to Ninjitsu and Tae Kwon Do as over-commercialized martial arts.

To combat the failing system of teaching so popular in the Philippine martial arts community, the GFC is offering an Instructor's course, which covers application and understanding of the basics, advanced Arnis and Eskrima, empty hand fighting, coaching and teaching skills, philosophy and how to design a curriculum. Designing a curriculum is especially important, because many who attend seminars do not follow a progressive structure in their teaching. Advance and intermediate concepts are taught out of order, basic skills are not developed and honed, and memory, sensitivity and reflexive action are treated as separate skills. An ongoing, 3-year program cannot be taught in the same manner as a one-day seminar. These are reasons why instructors should not design a full time curriculum after only completing short courses over three years. Finally, one cannot expect dedication and commitment to a full time curriculum if the instructor did not do so either!


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## kuntawguro

thekuntawman said:


> anyway, about your topic. i think the belt thing is okay. i dont do it in my school, but i grew up in the tournament circuit for karate point style. its good to give a student something he can see that he is working for it. the belt also helps the school stay alive, so we can have more philippine martial arts around. but a child should not even learn many parts of eskrima (blades and nerve and veins, and bone breaking and separating), so how can he become an expert at such a violent art? maybe if there is a "junior black belt" which the koreans call "dan bo" that is a good idea.
> 
> i dont like form, especially for the philippine martial arts, because the moves you do in a form are not good for a fighters, but as a separate skill for kids, maybe thats okay to. but you have to spend to much time to do something thats got nothing to do with your fighting technique, which isnt so good.



In the Philippines we did sayaws, these were the forms of the style- in these forms were the formulas for  stepping, trapping, throwing,  and altitudes of attacks- I wouldn't say they were just for kids to  keep them busy- they were training tools to  put the formulas to work then apply them.


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## kuntawguro

The Palarong Pilipino is an athletic event in the Philippines that showcases  some martial arts competiton. In 1972 when I attended it, you had to have a belt rank to compete. This included stick fighting competition. As the Philippine Karate association was the governing body of these events, they set the rules. So, many of the FMA schools started to adapt ranking systems into their arts so that they too could compete in the Palarong and in the asian games.
 So, yes- many FMA clubs were forced to adapt rankings to  participate or be left out. There were also Sayaw competitions there too. Sayaw is a dance or kata or form  ( for those who are unfamiliar)


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## jasin

The traditional Filipino fighting arts don't have a ranking system because they were originally a fighting art used only for defense in combat. It was never a sport as many of the martial arts today, even some of the Filipino Martial arts, have evolved into! Any martial art school that is teaching a Filipino martial art and has a ranking system is not teaching the traditional Filipino martial arts -- their probably teaching a westernized version of some sorta Filipino martial art.


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## kuntawguro

jasin said:


> The traditional Filipino fighting arts don't have a ranking system because they were originally a fighting art used only for defense in combat. It was never a sport as many of the martial arts today, even some of the Filipino Martial arts, have evolved into! Any martial art school that is teaching a Filipino martial art and has a ranking system is not teaching the traditional Filipino martial arts -- their probably teaching a westernized version of some sorta Filipino martial art.



 Read my post above- they were forced to adapt a belt ranking system or be left out- that doesn't mean they are any less traditional in their curriculum-


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## kuntawguro

With Arnis  being accepted as the national sport of the Philippines , I am sure that belt ranks are going to be the way they arragnge competitions.  Adapt , or get left on the side of the road. I do not like the idea of belts, but, there is not a better way to catagorize a persons ability if done with set standards for ranking level.


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## kuntawguro

I have been teaching and promoting Kuntaw since 1973, since that time I have only advanced 14 people to the rank of black belt. I have a belt ranking system that does not go on a time in rank but strictly by  skill level. I do this by a  passbook. This book is set up for the rank to be tested for.

I do not line up 20 people and test them. Each student gets a book, in this book are a number of skill sets. Each student is responsible to have two instructors validate their ability in the skill sets. When the book is completed, they apply for testing. Any 10  skills are pulled from the book and they are tested in their ability to perform these skills. 

This way  the instructors know what skills they have not passed on in their classes and the student knows what is required of him. Those who do not wish to test for rank- still know what to ask for in regards to skills.


The  quality or quantity adage goes here. i do not seek to turn out 1000 black belts who know nothing, I am out to  produce students who are good at the art. If they do not make it to Black Belt, they did not earn it and thus , they cannot pass it on.

 The passbooks are broken down into history,  theory,  stances, blocks,  techniques, and weapons.

If an instructor has passed the skill on to his satisfaction, he  signs the person off.  The next instructor gets a chance to see what was passd on and adds to it or agrees to it and he signs off. If a student cannot perform a skill- the book goes unsigned and they stay where they are until they can  perform.


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## MJS

My Arnis group uses belt ranks, however, a) nobody wears a belt, and b) no belts are awarded until black belt.  Even those of us that do have BB's, only wear them for certain occassions, ie: the group photo at a camp.  

Personally, I think that much like any other art that uses rank, its done for the modern times, so people will have some sort of visual sign of progression.  Then again, just because one may be wearing a brown belt or even a black belt, doesnt mean that their skills are worthy of that rank.

For me, I'm more interested in how well the person knows the material, how well they understand it, how well they can do it, teach it, etc.  Those things are IMO, what really matters.  

As far as the material goes....there is no more material for me to learn per se.  I mean really, how many more versions of siniwali, how many katas, how many more whatever, do you really need to learn?  What matters now, is how well you can perform what you already know.  If what you know sucks, then anything else you learn will most likely suck too. LOL.  Instead, I take certain things, and work the hell out of them.  A few weeks ago, during a private lesson, my inst. put on an old dvd of the Prof.  We watched him teach things, even putting the dvd into slo-mo, and it was amazing to see the things he was doing, things that unless you were either taught or fortunate enough to catch, then you never learned them.  Even the way that some of the tapi-tapi, and palis-palis drills are done by some, vs. the way the Prof. did them...again, are you watching or are you really watching?

So its stuff like that, as well as giving back to the art, ie: taking on students of your own, teaching, etc.  That is the stuff that is taken into consideration, obviously along with being sure that you look sharp and know your stuff, that determines whether or not you are promoted or not.


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