# who gave ed parker his black belt ?



## suicide

:wavey: answer : the real deal !


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## Xinglu

I'm glad we could have this conversation


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## suicide

and does it really matter who gave him his black belt ? :toilclaw:


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## terryl965

Well does it matter now, no. Should it matter yes, we all have a lineage and was trained by someone. Nobody woke up and said I am a Black Belt today.


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## jks9199

You did start the thread...

so I sort of figured you might care.  :shrug:


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## MA-Caver

terryl965 said:


> Well does it matter now, no. Should it matter yes, we all have a lineage and was trained by someone. Nobody woke up and said I am a Black Belt today.


Go to any McDojo and you'll find plenty of guys who started out that way years ago. :lol: 

But I think Parker gotten his BB from whomever he learned Kenpo from back in Hawaii then went from there with creating EPAK 



> From Wiki:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Parker
> Some time in the 1940s, Ed Parker was first introduced to Kenpo by Frank Chow. Frank Chow introduced Ed Parker to William Chow, with whom Parker trained while serving in the Coast Guard and attending Brigham Young University. *In 1953 he was promoted to the rank of black belt.*


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## Damon1698

William Chow? Idk but thats it maybe? he was saying something in an interview that "ed parker claims hes a black belt under me when hes just a purple" something along those lines


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## Twin Fist

oh for craps sake, that old thing again?


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## suicide

is this something that has been talked about many times before ? or is it something thats contreversial that no ones wants to talk about ? or is it a lil of both ?


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## jks9199

suicide said:


> is this something that has been talked about many times before ? or is it something thats contreversial that no ones wants to talk about ? or is it a lil of both ?


I thought you didn't care?


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## Xinglu

You answered your own question, didn't seem like you wanted much discussion in the first place.


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## suicide

so whats the real story behind that black belt ? 

o i get it you know and you dont want no one else to know - its all good ... take it to your grave brother !


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## shihansmurf

If it turned out that Ed Parker was never a black belt would it invalidate the incredible impact that he made in the martial arts world?  Did the strip of colored cloth really that he wore provide him with his knowledge, ability, teaching skills, or genius?

We make too much of a bit of fabric.
Mark


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## James Kovacich

Even if he didn't, he earned it by seeking more knowledge and what it took him to get where he arrived.


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## Xinglu

Dude - it has nothing to do with keeping anything secret. You were as clear as mud.  

Bottom line, he claimed he earned one from Chow, Chow denied this.  Neither men are around to explain so we are left with nothing more than conjecture and speculation.

In the end does it matter?  Parker was talented and made a huge impact to the MA world especially here in America.


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## punisher73

Xinglu said:


> Dude - it has nothing to do with keeping anything secret. You were as clear as mud.
> 
> Bottom line, he claimed he earned one from Chow, Chow denied this. Neither men are around to explain so we are left with nothing more than conjecture and speculation.
> 
> In the end does it matter? Parker was talented and made a huge impact to the MA world especially here in America.


 
Short Answer, Parker earned his blackbelt under Chow.

Long Answer:

1) Chow earned his BB under Chow, there are pictures of Parker training with Chow in which he is wearing it.

2) There WAS NO purple belt when Parker trained with Chow, so that couldn't have been a possibility

3) Chow, while a great martial artist, was very bitter in the end and would vent about people if asked.  It is more likely, he was bad mouthing Parker due to his success while Chow was broke and pennyless.

In the end, both were great martial artists and contributed alot to various systems today.  

More importantly, how does that effect what you are doing to better yourself and protect yourself?


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## shesulsa

What a strange beginning to a thread.


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## Jdokan

I remember Villari being ostracized for "elaborating" his credentials....Now I hear (sorry I lead a very sheltered life) Parker did the same...  I think the journey & where it leads somebody is more important than how it started...still though...it's not nice to fabric a truth....regardless of the intent....not saying we're not all guilty of it...just saying it's not nice....


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## celtic_crippler

Politics.


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## John Bishop

punisher73 said:


> Short Answer, Parker earned his blackbelt under Chow.
> 
> 
> 2) There WAS NO purple belt when Parker trained with Chow, so that couldn't have been a possibility


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## Xinglu

Thank you for that John, as they say, a photo is worth a thousand words...


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## James Kovacich

At some point, probably based on his achievements, Adriano Emperado promoted Ed Parker to 8th degree. I think that alone takes away the need to prove whether or not Ed Parker got his 1st black belt.


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## Xinglu

punisher73 said:


> Long Answer:
> 
> 1) Chow earned his BB under Chow, there are pictures of Parker training with Chow in which he is wearing it.
> 
> 2) There WAS NO purple belt when Parker trained with Chow, so that couldn't have been a possibility
> 
> 3) Chow, while a great martial artist, was very bitter in the end and would vent about people if asked.  It is more likely, he was bad mouthing Parker due to his success while Chow was broke and pennyless.
> 
> In the end, both were great martial artists and contributed alot to various systems today.
> 
> More importantly, how does that effect what you are doing to better yourself and protect yourself?



1. there are pictures of parker training with chow wearing a dark colored belt, this does not imply he was a BB.  It is impossible to distinguish the difference between purple, green, blue, brown, or black in old black and whites.  It is really hard with new black and whites.  Please provide evidence that indicates that it was a BB and not some other colored belt.  Just look at John's photo and compare the belts of Bobby Lowe and Adriano Emperado - they both look the sam, but one IS black the other IS blue.

2. Well, there is evidence on this very thread that directly contradicts your assertion.

3. People _*were*_ lying about how much training they received from him, you'd be upset if people were doing that to you too.  But that does not a liar make.  So please provide evidence of Chow's deceit regarding Parker's rank.


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## Xinglu

James Kovacich said:


> At some point, probably based on his achievements, Adriano Emperado promoted Ed Parker to 8th degree. I think that alone takes away the need to prove whether or not Ed Parker got his 1st black belt.



Sure, Like I said, Parker was skilled and did great things, so what does it really matter?

Besides, he didn't teach Kara-Ho Kempo, so it doesn't matter if he was a BB under chow.


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## Omar B

No it does not matter dude.  I don't even do Kenpo and have learned, swiped and outright stolen a lot of stuff from Kenpo.  One of these days I would love to get into it fully, but at the moment I can't (besides, Kali, Krav Maga and Tang Soo Do are ahead of it on my list).


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## punisher73

Xinglu said:


> 1. there are pictures of parker training with chow wearing a dark colored belt, this does not imply he was a BB. It is impossible to distinguish the difference between purple, green, blue, brown, or black in old black and whites. It is really hard with new black and whites. Please provide evidence that indicates that it was a BB and not some other colored belt. Just look at John's photo and compare the belts of Bobby Lowe and Adriano Emperado - they both look the sam, but one IS black the other IS blue.
> 
> 2. Well, there is evidence on this very thread that directly contradicts your assertion.
> 
> 3. People _*were*_ lying about how much training they received from him, you'd be upset if people were doing that to you too. But that does not a liar make. So please provide evidence of Chow's deceit regarding Parker's rank.


 
The picture that was posted is of Emperado and his students along with Chow. Others have stated that Chow did not use the color purple at that time frame.

Also, Parker was already ranked as a BB in Judo prior to leaving the islands and going to BYU. I am assuming the main question's intent was who gave Parker his BB in Kenpo.

As to the evidence of Chow's deceit read the BB interview which was done in 1984 and then publised about 15 years AFTER it was done.

1) Chow claims that he got his BB from his father and NOT Mitose. No proof has ever existed of that. Chow's other brothers got their training in Danzan-Ryu and Chow was known to have trained with them as well.

2) Chow claims that Parker did train with him and got to purple. Chow then says that Parker did most of his training under Emperado. Emperado had already started Kajukenbo and states that Parker only trained with him for 2 weeks. Parker also verifies that he only trained with Emperado a short time.

3) Says that Cerio is his true successor if you want to learn his system. Yet, anyone who has trained with Chow states that Cerio was only with him a very short period of time (even though it greatly influenced how he approached his kenpo).

So when you read through this interview, you can see that Chow was a bitter man who held some long time grudges. He disavows his association with Mitose, who gave him his belt. And then says that Parker mainly trained with Emperado. The interview taken as a whole shows that the source is not credible.  Chow also makes claims about Parker's popularity and how is he so big on the mainland, then degrades Parker's association.  There is also and interview with Emperado about how Chow wanted to be involved and rename their system to get credit.


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## John Bishop

punisher73 said:


> The picture that was posted is of Emperado and his students along with Chow.


a

No it's not.  And those were not Sijo's students.  Sijo never had a school at the Nuuanu YMCA.  That was the Chow school that Parker trained at, and Sijo assisted at.  
Sijo's school in 1950 was at the Palama Settlement Gym.  Prior to that it was at the Halawa Veterans Housing.


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## celtic_crippler

So? 

Is anyone here actually disputing SGM Parker's rank, his contributions, or his skill? 

Or just bickering about wheter or not purple belt ranks existed in 1950? 

Ed's not in the picture so it really doesn't matter nor does it really pertain to the topic of this thread.


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## suicide

no just a simple question who gave him his bb in kenpo ? everything he did for kenpo is recognized and thats cool but the question was : who gave ed parker his black belt ? from the looks of things the info is blurred maybe will never know - its all good though.



:whip:


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## Carol

The superimposed text on the photo implies that the _all ranks superimposed _on the photo were accurate _as of the given datestamp_ of the photo.

For there to be a purple belt in 1950, that must also mean that:


Professor Chow was referring to himself as a 10th dan red/black belt in in August, 1950.


Sijo Emperado was a 5th dan in August 1950, when he was 24.
And, all this happened before Professor Chow met James Mitose, and before Professor Chow had the dream to call his system "Kara Ho"

Are those dates accurate? 
(Not being smart-alecky here.  I honestly do not know if those dates are accurate or not)


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## John Bishop

Carol Kaur said:


> The superimposed text on the photo implies that the _all ranks superimposed _on the photo were accurate _as of the given datestamp_ of the photo.
> 
> For there to be a purple belt in 1950, that must also mean that:
> 
> 
> Professor Chow was referring to himself as a 10th dan red/black belt in in August, 1950.
> 
> 
> Sijo Emperado was a 5th dan in August 1950, when he was 24.
> And, all this happened before Professor Chow met James Mitose, and before Professor Chow had the dream to call his system "Kara Ho"
> 
> Are those dates accurate?
> (Not being smart-alecky here.  I honestly do not know if those dates are accurate or not)




On 9-18-89, Thomas Young told me that he and Chow started training with Mitose in his garage around 1941-42.  He preceded Chow by about 3 months. 
By the time Mitose opened the "Official Self Defense Club" around 1944-45, both Young and Chow were already black belts. 

On 12-12-92, Sijo Emperado told me that he started training with Chow in 1946.  Around 1947, he was promoted to black.  In 1950, Chow told him that Mitose promoted him to 10th degree, so he was promoting him (Emperado) to 5th degree.  
Several years later Chow started calling himself "Jugodan" 15th degree.  Emperado's explained the rank with one statement,  "whateva, he was one bad dude.  So no one ever questioned his rank".


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## Carol

John Bishop said:


> On 9-18-89, Thomas Young told me that he and Chow started training with Mitose in his garage around 1941-42.  He preceded Chow by about 3 months.
> By the time Mitose opened the "Official Self Defense Club" around 1944-45, both Young and Chow were already black belts.
> 
> On 12-12-92, Sijo Emperado told me that he started training with Chow in 1946.  Around 1947, he was promoted to black.  In 1950, Chow told him that Mitose promoted him to 10th degree, so he was promoting him (Emperado) to 5th degree.
> Several years later Chow started calling himself "Jugodan" 15th degree.  Emperado's explained the rank with one statement,  "whateva, he was one bad dude.  So no one ever questioned his rank".



Thank you very much Mr. Bishop!  I didn't realize all of that happened as early as it did.  :asian:


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## Xinglu

punisher73 said:


> The picture that was posted is of Emperado and his students along with Chow.





			
				John Bishop said:
			
		

> No it's not. And those were not Sijo's students. Sijo never had a school at the Nuuanu YMCA. That was the Chow school that Parker trained at, and Sijo assisted at.
> Sijo's school in 1950 was at the Palama Settlement Gym. Prior to that it was at the Halawa Veterans Housing.



As Mr. Bishop has already stated, this is incorrect.



punisher73 said:


> Others have stated that Chow did not use the color purple at that time frame.


 Who?  Furthermore, they are clearly mistaken as the photograph directly contradicts them.



punisher73 said:


> Also, Parker was already ranked as a BB in Judo prior to leaving the islands and going to BYU.


 This is irrelevant.  No one is disputing Parker's skill or knowledge.  Just that his kenpo rank under Chow is disputable.  Which as I said is almost irrelevent since he didn't teach Kara-Ho Kempo.



punisher73 said:


> I am assuming the main question's intent was who gave Parker his BB in Kenpo.


 Right, of which no evidence to contradict Chow's statement that he did not issue one to Parker has been presented by you.



punisher73 said:


> As to the evidence of Chow's deceit read the BB interview which was done in 1984 and then publised about 15 years AFTER it was done.


 It does not invalidate his claim against Parker's rank in Kara-Ho Kempo.



punisher73 said:


> 1) Chow claims that he got his BB from his father and NOT Mitose. No proof has ever existed of that. Chow's other brothers got their training in Danzan-Ryu and Chow was known to have trained with them as well.


  This is irrelevant and has nothing to do with Parker's rank.  Nice attempt at a Starw-man argument though :wink:



punisher73 said:


> 2) Chow claims that Parker did train with him and got to purple.


  Please provide evidence to the contrary.



punisher73 said:


> Chow then says that Parker did most of his training under Emperado. Emperado had already started Kajukenbo and states that Parker only trained with him for 2 weeks. Parker also verifies that he only trained with Emperado a short time.


 This is irrelevant to what rank Chow gave him.  Any training under Emperado would be irrelevant at this point since he was teaching Kajukenbo and not Kara-Ho.  Even if Parker earned a BB in Kajukenbo that would not be a BB under Chow or in Chow's Kempo.



punisher73 said:


> 3) Says that Cerio is his true successor if you want to learn his system. Yet, anyone who has trained with Chow states that Cerio was only with him a very short period of time (even though it greatly influenced how he approached his kenpo).


 This is irrelevant to Parker's rank under Chow.  Furthermore, GM Kuoha is the true successor and he has the documentation to prove it.



punisher73 said:


> So when you read through this interview, you can see that Chow was a bitter man who held some long time grudges.


 So?  Once again, this does not a liar make. 



punisher73 said:


> He disavows his association with Mitose, who gave him his belt.


 So? Lots of people did, Mitose was not easy to like and there was a lot of negative politics surrounding him.  It is also irrelevant to Parker's rank.



punisher73 said:


> The interview taken as a whole shows that the source is not credible.


 This is your opinion, a disputable one at that.  



punisher73 said:


> Chow also makes claims about Parker's popularity and how is he so big on the mainland, then degrades Parker's association.


  Yes, he was angry.  This doesn't mean he lied about Parker's rank.



punisher73 said:


> There is also and interview with Emperado about how Chow wanted to be involved and rename their system to get credit.


 Irrelevant, this has nothing to do with Parker's rank.


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## Xinglu

celtic_crippler said:


> Is anyone here actually disputing SGM Parker's rank, his contributions, or his skill?



Rank in American Kenpo? No. I also see no reason to doubt Chow's claim about Parker's rank in Kara-Ho. Like I said, It doesn't affect that Parker had mad skills and it does not take away from anything he accomplished or did. 

The only way it would matter is if Parker was claiming to teach Kara-Ho Kempo, which he did not.  He taught EPAK. And as the founder of EPAK no one can or should dispute his rank in EPAK.


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## suicide

Xinglu said:


> Rank in American Kenpo? No. I also see no reason to doubt Chow's claim about Parker's rank in Kara-Ho. Like I said, It doesn't affect that Parker had mad skills and it does not take away from anything he accomplished or did.
> 
> The only way it would matter is if Parker was claiming to teach Kara-Ho Kempo, which he did not. He taught EPAK. And as the founder of EPAK no one can or should dispute his rank in EPAK.


 

and no one is ? but the question remains : who gave ed parker his black belt ?


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## James Kovacich

Maybe it was Sonny Gascon.


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## Xinglu

suicide said:


> and no one is ? but the question remains : who gave ed parker his black belt ?



In general or in Kenpo? Because he was a BB in Judo before he left Hawaii.


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## shesulsa

Chuck Norris. :barf:


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## Joab

Hopefully nobody gave him his black belt, hopefully he earned it.


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## LawDog

I believe that this question hs been asked many times before within this forum.
Mr Parker was a very good person and martial artist and that is what really counts.


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## suicide

Xinglu said:


> In general or in Kenpo? Because he was a BB in Judo before he left Hawaii.


 
this is a kenpo question ...


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## shesulsa

:deadhorse:tantrum::fart::btg:irates:


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## punisher73

Xinglu said:


> As Mr. Bishop has already stated, this is incorrect.
> 
> Who? Furthermore, they are clearly mistaken as the photograph directly contradicts them.
> 
> This is irrelevant. No one is disputing Parker's skill or knowledge. Just that his kenpo rank under Chow is disputable. Which as I said is almost irrelevent since he didn't teach Kara-Ho Kempo.
> 
> Right, of which no evidence to contradict Chow's statement that he did not issue one to Parker has been presented by you.
> 
> It does not invalidate his claim against Parker's rank in Kara-Ho Kempo.
> 
> This is irrelevant and has nothing to do with Parker's rank. Nice attempt at a Starw-man argument though :wink:
> 
> Please provide evidence to the contrary.
> 
> This is irrelevant to what rank Chow gave him. Any training under Emperado would be irrelevant at this point since he was teaching Kajukenbo and not Kara-Ho. Even if Parker earned a BB in Kajukenbo that would not be a BB under Chow or in Chow's Kempo.
> 
> This is irrelevant to Parker's rank under Chow. Furthermore, GM Kuoha is the true successor and he has the documentation to prove it.
> 
> So? Once again, this does not a liar make.
> 
> So? Lots of people did, Mitose was not easy to like and there was a lot of negative politics surrounding him. It is also irrelevant to Parker's rank.
> 
> This is your opinion, a disputable one at that.
> 
> Yes, he was angry. This doesn't mean he lied about Parker's rank.
> 
> Irrelevant, this has nothing to do with Parker's rank.


 
Each one is a link in the chain. Why would nothing ever be said about this while Parker was alive (or Chow for that matter). Each item pointed out was that Chow changed and exagerated known facts as was pointed out in several of the claims in the interview. You are choosing to ignore all of the other things that were wrong with what Chow said, but suddenly that one item is to be taken as fact. It's not a strawman argument, it is presenting everything as a whole to show that the information in that interview is not accurate and is only for an agenda to stir the pot.

Why would Sijo Emperado promote Parker to 5th Dan, if he knew that he had been lying all these years about his rank from Chow? Ralph Castro studied with Chow and recieved his Brown Belt from Chow and was promoted to Black belt by Parker, don't you think that he would have known that Parker was never promoted by Chow? 

There are many respectable MA's that knew and trained with Chow and I have never heard/read one of them say he wasn't promoted.

Correct on being wrong about the photo though.  Had read from someone else that Chow only used white, brown, black when parker trained with him.


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## celtic_crippler

punisher73 said:


> Had read from someone else that Chow only used white, brown, black when parker trained with him.


 
I had a "senior" tell me that. 

Anyway...yeah, it's no secret that though Chow kicked much butt he was definately a whack-job and said some outlandish things in his life.


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## James Kovacich

If it's real?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11108&d=1247981837


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## suicide

James Kovacich said:


> If it's real?
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11108&d=1247981837


 

all we need to do now is verify tthat sig.


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## Ray

What I really want to know is "who gave Newton his professorship"


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## John Bishop

Here's samples of Prof Chow's signature from 1973 and 1986.













(1986)


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## Sigung86

terryl965 said:


> Well does it matter now, no. Should it matter yes, we all have a lineage and was trained by someone. Nobody woke up and said I am a Black Belt today.


 
Some have...


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## Sigung86

Y'know... I just sort of stumbled in and posted my above post before I realized this sucker ran on for four pages.  I might be a little bit blind, or maybe age is catching up, but these kinds of arguments are crap for want of a better word, particularly about this subject.  There is so much that is undocumented about the early days of most all the martial arts that folks practice now.  

Speaking with a friend of mine last night about rank, high rank, and how much does it count.  Having been a martial artist since around 1963, sorry no real documentation back that far, and having come up a long way in the intervening years, I guess my attitude is, "Who really cares"?  Not just about Mr. Parker, but about all of our arts, interpretations, and subjunctures, in general.  Was the first Black Belt ever given to the very first Black Belt recipient in those halcyon days of yesteryear, issued from Heaven?

I tend to look at knowledge and such as a real test of a martial artist.  Would you stop and learn from an Orange Belt, purple, blue, green, or one of the modern 3 degrees of brown if they maybe had something to offer?  Why not?  I would, and often do.  I have, for instance, a twelve year old, small in stature, young lady who, on occasion, gives me insights into what we normal or larger size folks take for granted, that may not work for diminutive folks.  She's barely a blue belt, and still manages to instruct.  Should she be ignored?

To me, the value of the Black Belt is all simply because we've all granted it credence.  The old Kung-fu schools had no such gradings.  You either were recognized by your peers, or not.

Who really cares about the old lore, legends myths, and perhaps, outright lies.  If you spend time perfecting what you have found and what works for you... Then I repeat... What the Hell does it matter regarding who gave what to who and when?  Interestingly, it seems that no one ever questioned Bruce Lee on his abilities, and yet he never attained a Black Belt anywhere.  He thought belts were good for holding up pants, only.  Me too!
:yoda:


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## shaolin-warrior

sorry duplicate...


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## dianhsuhe

My understanding is that Professor Chow gave Mr. Parker his Black-Belt when he (Parker) left to teach here in the mainland, and there was an agreement between the two that would have been mutually beneficial but this agreement was apparently never fulfilled by Mr. Parker.

Professor was not happy at all with Mr. Parker and did not like his Kenpo, of which Parker admittedly changed 90%.  Professor called it "Mosquito fighting".

Mr. Parkers skill and contributions are certainly not in question these days...

Some day soon I hope we can all focus on furthering all of these mens systems, ideals.


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## Milt G.

suicide said:


> :wavey: answer : the real deal !


 
Hello,

I do not think Evander Holyfield, AKA; "the real deal", gave Ed Parker his black belt. 

I think it was given to him by William Chow and recognized over the years by many prominent martial arts founders and leaders.  Of course, it was not given in American Kenpo, or EPAK.  Those "variations" did not exsist at that time.  It was given in Kenpo Karate, I believe.

Of course there are various opinions on this subject.  But going on lineage, appropriate in this case, it was William Chow.

An interesting, if over discussed, topic.

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

I remember clearly what Ed Parker said when I asked him about it. 

"Who the hell are you? How the hell did you get in my house at 3:00 in the morning past that alarm system Rich Hale installed? Get outta here before I kick da crap out of you and call da cops!"

Ahhh, memories. I should have sued him for the sprained ankle I got running down the stairs.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

suicide said:


> all we need to do now is verify tthat sig.


 
Look at the cursive "fessor" and at the hieght of "Chow" above the lines. Particularly, the nature of the 2 "ss" in "Professor": The space between them, , between them at the 'e' of the 'fe', the fatness of the first s, the narrowness of the 2nd.


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## shaolinmonkmark

ok, so , now we have to bring in an " FBI signature expert ?"

LOL!!!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

shaolinmonkmark said:


> ok, so , now we have to bring in an " FBI signature expert ?"
> 
> LOL!!!


 
Hey. It's already been done for other kenpo lineage claimants. People do wierd stuff to bolster their claims or diminish those of others.


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## shaolinmonkmark

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Hey. It's already been done for other kenpo lineage claimants. People do wierd stuff to bolster their claims or diminish those of others.


 
right, but scientists, criminalogists, and CIA have all noted, that as time goes, on, and we get older, our "Hand writing " may slightly diminsh/or change a bit.
(Im not sticking up for anyone at all, just stating that time maybe could be a factor In this case.(?)


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## shaolinmonkmark

only way to really find out, is compare the hand writing and signatures at , before and after the same time parker received his.
That way, we can get earlier ones, around the same time, and, after parker got his.


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## jks9199

And they have to be comparable exemplars...  Which those don't really appear to be.


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## LawDog

Nick Cerio's Nidan and Godan cert's both have Professsor Chows hand writting on them.


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## shaolinmonkmark

Awesome start.Now, we need "The tracy's, and "Parkers."
Also, if we could obtain Walter Godin's too, as he was promoted to 10th by chow i believe later than parker(?)

"*Godin left California and started Godins School of Self Defense in Kaimuki, Hawaii. He began teaching when he called Chinese Kempo Karate in 1961. Around this time, Godin also went back to training with Chow, who was now teaching Kara-Ho Kempo, and studied Hawaiian Lua with Brother Abe Kamahoahoa. On December 16, 1973, Chow promoted Godin to the rank of Professor. Godin trained lots of martial artists including Martin Buell, John Hackleman, Eugene Sedeño, Delilah Godin, Bill Takeuchi and David Tavares. Godin continued to teach and operate the only standing school in the Palamas Settlement until his recent passing on August 7, 2001.*


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## shaolinmonkmark

godin received his 10th degree from chow in 1963, so it would make sense to possibly view the certifacate.


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## John Bishop

Sijo Emperado was Prof. Chow's first black belt.  He was also 5th degree "chief instructor" under Chow.  Even though he had his own school and system, he also taught at Chow's school until 1955.  
Here is what he told me about Parker.  Around 1953-54, Chow called him at home.  Chow could not read or write much more then his name and address, so he  asked him to come over and read a letter he got from Parker.  
The letter was advising Chow how well Parker was doing teaching kenpo, and how many people were interested in learning the art.  He asked Chow if he could promote him to black belt so he could continue to teach and open a branch school for Chow.  
Sijo said Chow grumbled and did not want to do it.  Sijo told Chow that it would be a good thing if Parker opened a branch school on the mainland.  More people would learn about Prof. Chow, and want to come to Hawaii to train with him.  Chow relented and sent Parker the certificate. 
The arrangement Parker and Chow had turned sour, and Parker was not promoted any higher by Chow.  
Years later when Sijo was promoting some of the senior Kajukenbo instructors on the mainland, he told them to also make a certificate for Parker.  He then promoted Parker to 8th degree for his contribution to the spread of kenpo on the mainland.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

John Bishop said:


> Sijo Emperado was Prof. Chow's first black belt. He was also 5th degree "chief instructor" under Chow. Even though he had his own school and system, he also taught at Chow's school until 1955.
> Here is what he told me about Parker. Around 1953-54, Chow called him at home. Chow could not read or write much more then his name and address, so he asked him to come over and read a letter he got from Parker.
> The letter was advising Chow how well Parker was doing teaching kenpo, and how many people were interested in learning the art. He asked Chow if he could promote him to black belt so he could continue to teach and open a branch school for Chow.
> Sijo said Chow grumbled and did not want to do it. Sijo told Chow that it would be a good thing if Parker opened a branch school on the mainland. More people would learn about Prof. Chow, and want to come to Hawaii to train with him. Chow relented and sent Parker the certificate.
> The arrangement Parker and Chow had turned sour, and Parker was not promoted any higher by Chow.
> Years later when Sijo was promoting some of the senior Kajukenbo instructors on the mainland, he told them to also make a certificate for Parker. He then promoted Parker to 8th degree for his contribution to the spread of kenpo on the mainland.


 
Akin to what I'd heard as well. Mr. Parker was a childhood hero of mine, and remain(s)/(ed) so. In addition to running with the Parker kenpo crowd, I also ran with some of the Hawaiian kenpo/kempo people. From them, I would hear things about Mr. P. that were not always complimentary, particularly about his business dealings and how he handled his relationships with people in the industry. Luckily, I never saw that side of him, and apparently never gave him cause to. But I understand he could be a disagreeable sort when business dealings or isues of loyalty were at stake.

Thanks for your insight and recollections on this, Mr. Bishop.

D.


----------



## Damon1698

he's dead
he's a legend
just leave it at that


----------



## suicide

how many other KENPO or KAJUKENBO instructors have recieved a bb in this way ?


----------



## John Bishop

suicide said:


> how many other KENPO or KAJUKENBO instructors have recieved a bb in this way ?




In the 50's-60's, probably quite a few.  It was pretty common for kenpo & kajukenbo practitioners to come to the mainland looking for jobs.  And many joined the military and traveled around the world.  
Because of a shortage of any accessible karate or kung fu schools, a lot of them started teaching.  (Just as you had Brazilian Ju juitsu color belts opening schools in the 90's).  After establishing large followings of students, some were promoted to black.


----------



## Danjo

This gets posted from time to time, but here it is again. You can compare signatures on this with the others:


----------



## Milt G.

Danjo said:


> This gets posted from time to time, but here it is again. You can compare signatures on this with the others:


 
Hello,

I think, if issued these days, that this certificate could, and would be, considered suspect in regards to validity.  I say this as it appears to be a generic certificate form obtainable anywhere.

However, issued when it was holds much more credence, IMO, as that is basically what was available at the time.  There were far less options then are available today.

Thank you for posting it, again.
Milt G.


----------



## celtic_crippler

John Bishop said:


> Sijo Emperado was Prof. Chow's first black belt. He was also 5th degree "chief instructor" under Chow. Even though he had his own school and system, he also taught at Chow's school until 1955.
> Here is what he told me about Parker. Around 1953-54, Chow called him at home. Chow could not read or write much more then his name and address, so he asked him to come over and read a letter he got from Parker.
> The letter was advising Chow how well Parker was doing teaching kenpo, and how many people were interested in learning the art. He asked Chow if he could promote him to black belt so he could continue to teach and open a branch school for Chow.
> Sijo said Chow grumbled and did not want to do it. Sijo told Chow that it would be a good thing if Parker opened a branch school on the mainland. More people would learn about Prof. Chow, and want to come to Hawaii to train with him. Chow relented and sent Parker the certificate.
> The arrangement Parker and Chow had turned sour, and Parker was not promoted any higher by Chow.
> Years later when Sijo was promoting some of the senior Kajukenbo instructors on the mainland, he told them to also make a certificate for Parker. He then promoted Parker to 8th degree for his contribution to the spread of kenpo on the mainland.


 
In summary and to clarify...

By this assertion you're saying that:

Ed Parker did not earn his black belt from Chow by testing and actually demonstrating his skill and knowledge.
Ed Parker was awarded a black belt from Chow because he simply asked for one.
Now, if we accept that assertion we must also concede that:

Chow awarded black belts to the underserving, or more specifically awarded rank to those who had not demonstrated the knowledge and skill necessary based on the actual standard Chow himself established; otherwise, Parker would have been granted the rank before he left for the mainland.
And, if that is the case then:

That calls into question the legitamacy of any/all black belts awarded by Chow, including the one he awareded to Emperado. If he did it once, then it's likely he did it more than once.
That also calls into question the legitamacy of any/all black belts awarded by both Emperado and Parker, as well as any others granted black belts by Chow who then promoted others.
In essence, in one post you've not only called into question the legitamacy of several systems spawned from the teachings of Chow, but also called into question the legitamacy of every single student that followed! ...including yourself and I of course.

... interesting. 

I find it fascinating that the political BS of old still permeates the arts today. Even though it is now widely recognized for what it is, there are still those that chose to perpetuate politics when they should in fact be spending that energy perpetuating the art instead. 

Once one separates bruised egos and rumors from these great men, there's really no disputing any of their accomplishments. There is also too much evidence to dispute their skill and knowledge as well... so what's the point of this thread really? What purpose does it really serve? Perhaps a trollish post to spark old arguments and hurt feelings, to stir up the crap once again so to speak? 

This thread should have died a while back IMHO. :shrug:

Peace. :asian:


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

celtic_crippler said:


> In summary and to clarify...
> 
> 
> By this assertion you're saying that:
> Ed Parker did not earn his black belt from Chow by testing and actually demonstrating his skill and knowledge.
> Ed Parker was awarded a black belt from Chow because he simply asked for one.
> Now, if we accept that assertion we must also concede that:
> Chow awarded black belts to the underserving, or more specifically awarded rank to those who had not demonstrated the knowledge and skill necessary based on the actual standard Chow himself established; otherwise, Parker would have been granted the rank before he left for the mainland.
> And, if that is the case then:
> That calls into question the legitamacy of any/all black belts awarded by Chow, including the one he awareded to Emperado. If he did it once, then it's likely he did it more than once.
> That also calls into question the legitamacy of any/all black belts awarded by both Emperado and Parker, as well as any others granted black belts by Chow who then promoted others.
> In essence, in one post you've not only called into question the legitamacy of several systems spawned from the teachings of Chow, but also called into question the legitamacy of every single student that followed! ...including yourself and I of course.
> 
> ... interesting.
> 
> I find it fascinating that the political BS of old still permeates the arts today. Even though it is now widely recognized for what it is, there are still those that chose to perpetuate politics when they should in fact be spending that energy perpetuating the art instead.
> 
> Once one separates bruised egos and rumors from these great men, there's really no disputing any of their accomplishments. There is also too much evidence to dispute their skill and knowledge as well... so what's the point of this thread really? What purpose does it really serve? Perhaps a trollish post to spark old arguments and hurt feelings, to stir up the crap once again so to speak?
> 
> This thread should have died a while back IMHO. :shrug:
> 
> Peace. :asian:


 
The Hawaiian lineage martial arts effectively lack the "purebreed" lineages sported proudly by the Japanese budo aristocracy, and start with whomever stated whatever splinter. Of that, I have always been proud. I wrote somewhere before about the differences between a thoroughbred AKC-papered poodle and a backyard pitbull-rottie mix from the bad side of town, and that I would rather be the mix than the poodle when the SHTF. 

A BB in the Hawaiian lineages is nothing more, to me, than acknowledgement that we come from that line of scrappers. Proud of it meself.


----------



## celtic_crippler

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> The Hawaiian lineage martial arts effectively lack the "purebreed" lineages sported proudly by the Japanese budo aristocracy, and start with whomever stated whatever splinter. Of that, I have always been proud. I wrote somewhere before about the differences between a thoroughbred AKC-papered poodle and a backyard pitbull-rottie mix from the bad side of town, and that I would rather be the mix than the poodle when the SHTF.
> 
> *A BB in the Hawaiian lineages is nothing more, to me, than acknowledgement that we come from that line of scrappers. Proud of it meself*.


 
Me too. 

All this political ga-ga only distracts and detracts from perpetuating the arts though... it just rubs me the wrong way... it's like two 6 year olds bickering about who's dad can whup the other's.


----------



## pete

celtic_crippler said:


> In essence, in one post you've not only called into question the legitamacy of several systems spawned from the teachings of Chow, but also called into question the legitamacy of every single student that followed! ...including yourself and I of course.
> 
> 
> ... interesting.


 
The legitimacy of belts, grading, and rank (whatever that _really_ means) is far different than the legitimacy of a system or an art.  I haven't seen where that is being called to task.  

pete


----------



## Danjo

No one gave out belts until Jigoro Kano in Judo, and these were for sporting accomplishments. Funakoshi followed suit with Karate and then it was on like Donkey Kong. Rank is meaningful within the system it's given in.


----------



## celtic_crippler

pete said:


> The legitimacy of belts, grading, and rank (whatever that _really_ means) is far different than the legitimacy of a system or an art. I haven't seen where that is being called to task.
> 
> pete


 
I reccomend rereading the previous posts. 

If a person's ability is in question, then it stands to reason that the system or art created by said person would also be in question. No? 

Anyway...this thread is making me tired. I should follow my own advice and do what I can to contributing to it's death instead of feeding it. 

Y'all enjoy! Peace!


----------



## dianhsuhe

celtic_crippler said:


> I reccomend rereading the previous posts.
> 
> If a person's ability is in question, then it stands to reason that the system or art created by said person would also be in question. No?
> 
> Anyway...this thread is making me tired. I should follow my own advice and do what I can to contributing to it's death instead of feeding it.
> 
> Y'all enjoy! Peace!


 
Me too Crippla!

(BUMP)

LOL


----------



## John Bishop

celtic_crippler said:


> In summary and to clarify...
> 
> By this assertion you're saying that:
> 
> Ed Parker did not earn his black belt from Chow by testing and actually demonstrating his skill and knowledge.
> Ed Parker was awarded a black belt from Chow because he simply asked for one.
> Now, if we accept that assertion we must also concede that:
> 
> Chow awarded black belts to the underserving, or more specifically awarded rank to those who had not demonstrated the knowledge and skill necessary based on the actual standard Chow himself established; otherwise, Parker would have been granted the rank before he left for the mainland.
> And, if that is the case then:
> 
> That calls into question the legitamacy of any/all black belts awarded by Chow, including the one he awareded to Emperado. If he did it once, then it's likely he did it more than once.
> That also calls into question the legitamacy of any/all black belts awarded by both Emperado and Parker, as well as any others granted black belts by Chow who then promoted others.
> In essence, in one post you've not only called into question the legitamacy of several systems spawned from the teachings of Chow, but also called into question the legitamacy of every single student that followed! ...including yourself and I of course.
> 
> ... interesting.
> 
> I find it fascinating that the political BS of old still permeates the arts today. Even though it is now widely recognized for what it is, there are still those that chose to perpetuate politics when they should in fact be spending that energy perpetuating the art instead.
> 
> Once one separates bruised egos and rumors from these great men, there's really no disputing any of their accomplishments. There is also too much evidence to dispute their skill and knowledge as well... so what's the point of this thread really? What purpose does it really serve? Perhaps a trollish post to spark old arguments and hurt feelings, to stir up the crap once again so to speak?
> 
> This thread should have died a while back IMHO. :shrug:
> 
> Peace. :asian:



It's not a assertion, opinion, or even a justification.  I'm just relaying the eye witness account of the circumstances of Ed Parker's kenpo black belt promotion.  
I have no clue what Prof. Chow's requirements for black belt were at the time.  Or even if there was a set requirement.  
I think the formalized testing and set standards for belt ranks came  about more recently in history.  
I've known instructors who did/do no rank testing at all.  Some promoted based on time in grade, some just went with their opinion of the students abilities at the time.  Some got promoted for teaching others.  
And it's not just in the Hawaiian arts.  We've all heard the story of Joe Lewis getting hjs black belt in Okinawa in 7 months.  Other's in a years time.  We've heard the stories of military men in Okinawa coming home with 6th-7th degrees in Isshin Ryu, because their instructor felt he would never see them again, and they would need the rank to grow their organizations.
I think we get into problems when we apply modern standards to earlier times.


----------



## punisher73

John Bishop said:


> It's not a assertion, opinion, or even a justification. I'm just relaying the eye witness account of the circumstances of Ed Parker's kenpo black belt promotion.
> I have no clue what Prof. Chow's requirements for black belt were at the time. Or even if there was a set requirement.
> I think the formalized testing and set standards for belt ranks came about more recently in history.
> I've known instructors who did/do no rank testing at all. Some promoted based on time in grade, some just went with their opinion of the students abilities at the time. Some got promoted for teaching others.
> And it's not just in the Hawaiian arts. We've all heard the story of Joe Lewis getting hjs black belt in Okinawa in 7 months. Other's in a years time. We've heard the stories of military men in Okinawa coming home with 6th-7th degrees in Isshin Ryu, because their instructor felt he would never see them again, and they would need the rank to grow their organizations.
> I think we get into problems when we apply modern standards to earlier times.


 
I think the last sentence sums it up perfectly.  I remember reading about Ueshiba also spot promoting Koichi Tohei to around 5th degree before he went to Hawaii.  It was a way to establish Aikido outside of Japan.

People here in the US (as seen by this thread alone) seem stuck on the issue of rank and having a need for one instead of someone's abilities and skill at teaching.  Originally, no one cared about rank because there was none.  Show me what you got and I'll learn from you...period.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Sensei Cherlyn Kuoha (Grandmaster's oldest daughter) was given her Black-Belt (on the spot) by Professor Chow after knocking another BB out while sparring.  She was 15 and I think an orange or purple belt at that time.

He literally stepped over the downed blackbelt and told her she was to be promoted immediately.

Pretty cool I think-


----------



## Xinglu

dianhsuhe said:


> Sensei Cherlyn Kuoha (Grandmaster's oldest daughter) was given her Black-Belt (on the spot) by Professor Chow after knocking another BB out while sparring.  She was 15 and I think an orange or purple belt at that time.
> 
> He literally stepped over the downed blackbelt and told her she was to be promoted immediately.
> 
> Pretty cool I think-




I think that is fair.  If you can consistently dominate and in this case KO a BB in your system... then hey, why not.


----------



## Milt G.

Xinglu said:


> I think that is fair. If you can consistently dominate and in this case KO a BB in your system... then hey, why not.


 
Hello,

I see your point and understand, I think?

I, however, feel that the black belt ranking should not be "bestowed" for fighting ability only.  I think that level must take into consideration one's knowledge in the system and training in the art, as well.

There are many highly skilled "street fighters" with little or no traditional martial arts training, or ability.  Should they be given a 3rd Dan because they sucessfully "mugged" and knocked out a 3rd Dan?  Or, perhaps a 4th dan, because they defeated a 3rd Dan?  

I know that this type of ranking is fairly common in Judo, or at least was.  Of course that was in a purely sporting realm.  I, too, know that in the old days (40's and 50's, perhaps into the 60's) that ranking was more related to ones fighting ability.  These days, if you are consistantly "knocking out" your classmates and peers, I think some classes in control would be merited.  Certainly not a promotion.  

This is the 21st century.  I would not wish ranking directly related to ones own fighting ability.  The same ability that can vary day by day, opponent by opponent.  So, when the brown belt defeats the black belt does the brown get black, or the black get brown???  Or, both?

Not to take the significance away from fighting ability, or to discount the last two posts...  I know that things used to be somewhat different in the "olden" days.  Just to offer a different side of the discussion.

Pro's, con's, etc...???

A nice topic discussion "branch".  Thank you.
Milt G.


----------



## dianhsuhe

I agree with Milt G. actually...The arts are about much more than fighting.

I have always loved the story though about this because:

1.  It was a woman who KO'd a man
2.  The man was a Professor Chow BB
3.  The woman was 15 and relatively low ranking

She still teaches and trains (Kara-Ho) in Idaho also...

Not sure how many women were promoted to BB by Professor Chow-


----------



## Xinglu

It is also my understanding that she was using Kara-Ho to defeat this BB. When a novice is using the material taught to beat other BB in the system, I don't see the problem with using a fast track method.  Furthermore, Professor Chow knew what he wanted to see in his BB, and clearly she had it.


----------



## Milt G.

Xinglu said:


> It is also my understanding that she was using Kara-Ho to defeat this BB. When a novice is using the material taught to beat other BB in the system, I don't see the problem with using a fast track method. Furthermore, Professor Chow knew what he wanted to see in his BB, and clearly she had it.


 
Hello,

Purple to black is certainly the "fast track".   Who she was related to probably did not hurt, either.  May have been the reason her "opponent" handled her differently, as well.  If he did, of course?  I may have.  I do not come at 15 year old colored belts like I do advanced adults.  So, the same could happen to me, I guess?

Who knows?  Many "variables" here...

I thank you guys for your input!
Milt G.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> Purple to black is certainly the "fast track".  Who she was related to probably did not hurt, either. May have been the reason her "opponent" handled her differently, as well. If he did, of course? I may have. I do not come at 15 year old colored belts like I do advanced adults. So, the same could happen to me, I guess?
> 
> Who knows? Many "variables" here...
> 
> I thank you guys for your input!
> Milt G.


 
Very possible Milt!  I will have to ask Grandmaster Kuoha to tell the story again the next time I see him.  I almost want to say she was using a high-kick for the K.O. (Dad taught her that-) which is what spawned the origin of the high kicks in Kara-Ho.

I know Professor did not do them, but when he saw Grandmaster use them, Professor helped make them "Kara-Ho style" and permitted their addition into the system.

Wish we had her fight on video...


----------



## Milt G.

dianhsuhe said:


> Very possible Milt! I will have to ask Grandmaster Kuoha to tell the story again the next time I see him. I almost want to say she was using a high-kick for the K.O. (Dad taught her that-) which is what spawned the origin of the high kicks in Kara-Ho.
> 
> I know Professor did not do them, but when he saw Grandmaster use them, Professor helped make them "Kara-Ho style" and permitted their addition into the system.
> 
> Wish we had her fight on video...


 
Hello,

I always find it interesting to learn how the martial styles, and arts, have become what they are today.  Much of their "evolution" is related as much to personality as it is to other factors.

I have always enjoyed the history of the systems.  I have learned, over time, that you must take everything with "a few grains of salt".  The stories are told, even by those that were there, differently to some then to others.  The story sometimes changes with time or "interest" as well.  We all have the truth.  Every story and "recount" has some basis in fact.  We just have to decide what truth we are willing to believe and which "parts" are the fact.  Of course, like personalities, the point of view and perception can be different for each of us.  We are all subject to our own beliefs and prejudices.

In the end we all tend to believe what we want.  Right or wrong, we may not always know...  We may never really know.

Thank you,
Milt G.


----------



## KenpoDave

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> I see your point and understand, I think?
> 
> I, however, feel that the black belt ranking should not be "bestowed" for fighting ability only. I think that level must take into consideration one's knowledge in the system and training in the art, as well.
> 
> There are many highly skilled "street fighters" with little or no traditional martial arts training, or ability. Should they be given a 3rd Dan because they sucessfully "mugged" and knocked out a 3rd Dan? Or, perhaps a 4th dan, because they defeated a 3rd Dan?
> 
> I know that this type of ranking is fairly common in Judo, or at least was. Of course that was in a purely sporting realm. I, too, know that in the old days (40's and 50's, perhaps into the 60's) that ranking was more related to ones fighting ability. These days, if you are consistantly "knocking out" your classmates and peers, I think some classes in control would be merited. Certainly not a promotion.
> 
> This is the 21st century. I would not wish ranking directly related to ones own fighting ability. The same ability that can vary day by day, opponent by opponent. So, when the brown belt defeats the black belt does the brown get black, or the black get brown??? Or, both?
> 
> Not to take the significance away from fighting ability, or to discount the last two posts... I know that things used to be somewhat different in the "olden" days. Just to offer a different side of the discussion.
> 
> Pro's, con's, etc...???
> 
> A nice topic discussion "branch". Thank you.
> Milt G.


 
I think there is a certain amount of "Master's Prerogative."  There are formal standards and goals, but there are also moments when someone unexpectedly displays a level of skill or knowledge that is consistent with a higher ranking.  I have seen things like this done on a few occasions, and heard of them as well, and in all cases that I am aware of, the rank was bestowed on someone who would "stick around and grow into the belt."


----------



## Milt G.

KenpoDave said:


> I think there is a certain amount of "Master's Prerogative." There are formal standards and goals, but there are also moments when someone unexpectedly displays a level of skill or knowledge that is consistent with a higher ranking. I have seen things like this done on a few occasions, and heard of them as well, and in all cases that I am aware of, the rank was bestowed on someone who would "stick around and grow into the belt."


 
Hello, Dave...

I fully agree.  Have seen much of the same, myself.  Have even done a couple.  I do think a "bump" from an early colored belt to black belt is a bit excessive, though.  At least, it is not something I would consider doing.  I cannot speak for all, as I have learned over the years.  I think of "bumps" as extending one, maybe two, ranks at most...

Of course these are just my opinions...  Any similarity between MY opinions, and REAL opinions, is purely coincidential...  

Happy Halloween to you, Sir...
Milt G.


----------



## dianhsuhe

I would also not jump someone in rank and I do not think must of us would...But we are talking about Professor Chow, and we are talking a time when a colored belt had YEARS of experience.

She did stay around and teaches in Idaho.

Good input folks!


----------



## Doc

dianhsuhe said:


> My understanding is that Professor Chow gave Mr. Parker his Black-Belt when he (Parker) left to teach here in the mainland, and there was an agreement between the two that would have been mutually beneficial but this agreement was apparently never fulfilled by Mr. Parker.
> 
> Professor was not happy at all with Mr. Parker and did not like his Kenpo, of which Parker admittedly changed 90%.  Professor called it "Mosquito fighting".
> 
> Mr. Parkers skill and contributions are certainly not in question these days...
> 
> Some day soon I hope we can all focus on furthering all of these mens systems, ideals.



According to Ed Parker Sr., when he finally contacted Chow and asked him to come to the mainland to set him up as promised, Chow refused to leave Hawaii. When Parker asked why, Chow said, "I don't want to leave my home. You are now on your own." Parker kept his promise but Chow according to Parker, was not interested at the time. It was only later when Parker's notoriety blossomed that Chow appeared to have a change of heart, but Parker had moved on.


----------



## Doc

punisher73 said:


> Short Answer, Parker earned his blackbelt under Chow.
> 
> Long Answer:
> 
> 1) Chow earned his BB under Chow, there are pictures of Parker training with Chow in which he is wearing it.
> 
> 2) There WAS NO purple belt when Parker trained with Chow, so that couldn't have been a possibility
> 
> 3) Chow, while a great martial artist, was very bitter in the end and would vent about people if asked.  It is more likely, he was bad mouthing Parker due to his success while Chow was broke and pennyless.
> 
> In the end, both were great martial artists and contributed alot to various systems today.
> 
> More importantly, how does that effect what you are doing to better yourself and protect yourself?



To put things in context, in that same interview where he said Parker was a purple belt, he also placed his own rank at 15th degree. Chow was good at pulling your leg, and often would say things just to see how you reacted to it, and then contradict himself later in the conversation.

I don't know of anyone who seriously questions Mr. Parker's Black Belt rank, but even if some dain bramaged person did, what would it matter? Mr. Parker proved he deserved it. Now how about all the guys that have "legitimate" rank, but don't deserve it.


----------



## MarkC

Doc said:


> To put things in context, in that same interview where he said Parker was a purple belt, he also placed his own rank at 15th degree. Chow was good at pulling your leg, and often would say things just to see how you reacted to it, and then contradict himself later in the conversation.
> 
> I don't know of anyone who seriously questions Mr. Parker's Black Belt rank, but even if some dain bramaged person did, what would it matter? Mr. Parker proved he deserved it. Now how about all the guys that have "legitimate" rank, but don't deserve it.



The Kara-Ho people took that 15th degree thing seriously, it's printed on the membership cards and certificates. Or at least it was.
I always thought 10th was about it....


----------



## Doc

MarkC said:


> The Kara-Ho people took that 15th degree thing seriously, it's printed on the membership cards and certificates. Or at least it was.
> I always thought 10th was about it....


Once again, according to Mr. Parker, when Mitose claimed the rank of 10th degree, William Chow responded by saying, "If Mitose is 10th, than I'm 15th degree." Apparently as Mr. Parker told it to me, it was not that Chow took the rank seriously, he was only expressing where he felt he was relative to some others claiming 10th. Once again, often making statements for shock value to see how others responded. After all, who was around that was going to tell him he couldn't be 15th? That was his point.


----------



## MarkC

That's what I assumed too, sir.


----------



## Danjo

Wow. I remember when I was a kid reading Black Belt Magazine (and several other publications most of which are no longer in print). It was rare that I would read about someone's rank. It was always just that someone was a black belt. No one really cared about the rank after that point unless you were in their organization. It was all about what you could do. We didn't care about what rank Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, or Frank Smith had. I still don't know what rank any of them are. Don't care either. They were still my childhood heroes. (Later this category of "performers" would shift to people like Chuck Liddell, Randy Coutre, Fedor Emilianenko etc.)

There were also those that were my martial arts heroes that were due to TV or Movies: David Carradine, Tom Laughlin, Jim Kelly, Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris (again), Steven Segal, and the Power Rangers (kidding). Again, I couldn't care less about their ranks (if some of them even had any).

Later, I had other heroes in the martial arts world. These were not the "performers" like those mentioned above, but rather the inovaters and teachers. Prof. Chow, Ed Parker, Choki Motobu, Helio Gracie, Adriano Emperado etc. I never dropped my admiration for the previous groups of martial artists mentioned above (though they are all only partial lists), but I had expanded my definition of martial artist.

These days, my focus has shifted to those I actually know (though none of the above is diminished to my mind either). My instructor and the others that I have met and learned from hold more of a place in my ratings. Again, their rank has nothing to do with it. If someone can teach me something I didn't know before, or improve something I already have, then that's all that counts. Whether said knowledge has been rewarded with a stripe on the belt or not is irrelevant.

Rank is important within an organization for organizational purposes (mostly to do with seniority). Outside of that: Who cares?


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## KenpoDave

Doc said:


> Once again, according to Mr. Parker, when Mitose claimed the rank of 10th degree, William Chow responded by saying, "If Mitose is 10th, than I'm 15th degree." Apparently as Mr. Parker told it to me, it was not that Chow took the rank seriously, he was only expressing where he felt he was relative to some others claiming 10th. Once again, often making statements for shock value to see how others responded. After all, who was around that was going to tell him he couldn't be 15th? That was his point.


 
That is interesting.  I did not recall Mitose ever claiming a degree of black belt.  I had always heard that Chow's claim of 15th was in response to Parker claiming 10th.  After all, Chow had taught Parker, and it was unusual at that time for there to be more than one.  Not anymore, though...


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## Milt G.

KenpoDave said:


> That is interesting. I did not recall Mitose ever claiming a degree of black belt. I had always heard that Chow's claim of 15th was in response to Parker claiming 10th. After all, Chow had taught Parker, and it was unusual at that time for there to be more than one. Not anymore, though...


 
Hi, Dave...

I agree.  That is how I heard the story as well.  

I believe the interview with William Chow (written) related this same version.  Did Chow make that statement in regards to James Mitose as well?  I would certainly not put it past him.  As I understand it, Chow never really claimed 15th Dan.  He was just using it as an example of his knowledge and skill as compared to others holding the 10th Dan in Kenpo.  I think he had some "feelings" about others that were elevated to the same rank as his.

I have not heard about James Mitose claiming any certain rank, either.  I do know that the early Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo system did have a detailed rank structure.  All understood that James Mitose (Later, Thomas Mitose, because of blood line only.  In the earlier times, anyway.) was at the top of the "food chain".  Mitose was considered the "honorable great grandmaster" only, to the best of my recollection.  The seniors of Kosho-Ryu could be asked.  Sadly, some bad feelings and politics may cloud the issue some.  The same as some other arts, I guess?

Kenpo...  A long and winding road.  At best, and at worst.

Happy Holidays.
Milt G.


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