# PNG 'sorry' for cannibal killings



## Big Don (Jan 1, 2008)

PNG 'sorry' for cannibal killings 

 *The descendants of cannibals in Papua New Guinea, who killed and ate four Fijian missionaries in 1878, have said sorry for their forefathers' actions.*


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## Ping898 (Jan 1, 2008)

I hate this kind of stuff, you should not have to apologize for something that you were in no way involved in....what does it matter if you apologize for something that your great great grandfather did....


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## Makalakumu (Jan 1, 2008)

The New Guinians should have eaten a few more of the missionaries.  Maybe they would have only ended up like the maori instead...


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## theletch1 (Jan 1, 2008)

Yeah, I hate to see that the PC mindset is expanding that far.  It has always bugged me to see others apologize for the actions of someone else when the apologizer had absolutely nothing to do with the initial actions.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 1, 2008)

Well, (white) Americans were supposed to apologize to (black) Americans for the Slavery, Americans in general were supposed to apologize to Japan for the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, supposed to apologize to Native Americans for atrocities committed in the 1800's, Germans were supposed to apologize for the Holocaust, NOBODY seems interested in trying to make Russia or the former USSR apologize for their actions against Jews behind the Iron Curtain. Japanese were supposed to apologize for actions against the Chinese during World War II, hmm, lessee... oh ok, the Brits for their actions against India when that country was seeking it's independence... Lets not forget (white) Aussies for trying to wipe out Aborigines in their respective country.... 

Gee seems everybody owes somebody somewhere an apology. Except of course ... hmm... Eskimos, Aborigines, tribes deep in Amazonian/African jungles, and a few other indigenous peoples.  

Are they gonna get it? 
Should they?
I'm not going to apologize for slavery or native american massacres, or for the bombings of two Japanese cities at the height of a long and terrible war where the other side-just-wouldn't-give-up even after they knew they were going to lose... I didn't do it, I didn't influence it, I didn't plan it, I sure as hell didn't WANT it to happen. 

The PC natives shouldn't be coerced into saying apologies for something their forefathers did either. It was a way of life and that way meant survival for them and their families. 
Present population can be like I am... ashamed of actions of their forefathers if they want to be. But to say "we're sorry" ?? Nope. 
That sounds more like Lawyer gobby-gook speak to me.


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## grydth (Jan 1, 2008)

As I've said, applying modern "values", if we actually have any, to past situations is fruitless.

The apology and reparations racket is dandy, for some, and it keeps the hate alive. We're getting like the Balkans with that. We recycle more hate than we do paper or glass.

Rather than all this venom about who ate whom in 1878, or who said a racist thing in 1868, or who broke their word in 1834....... know what I'd like to see?   A resolve to start behavng fairly and justly starting right now.

I'd like to see a state governor invite local Native Americans over for Thanksgiving. "Let's try this again, and keep it going..." 

I'd love to see a Jewish temple invite that heroic Askari hero over - and bring some Muslim friends - let's end the killing. How about a couple of imams returning the favor and repudiating the extremists? How about a Catholic Bishop buying them all lunch? And so on for the other religions...and ethnic groups.....

Instead of the rabidly partisan political exchanges, I'd like to see people on this Forum seek out others who are different and get to know them. 

Instead of reparations, I'd rather see regeneration..... a determination on a personal and societal level to end all this starting in 2008. 

Why let the assassins, the hate mongers, the homicide bombers, the corrupt politicians define our era?


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## Big Don (Jan 1, 2008)

I don't believe in apologizing for things beyond my control. If my great-great grandfather shot yours, either your's had it coming, or he should have apologized.


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## BrandiJo (Jan 1, 2008)

If it makes the people feel better why not do it? If for whatever reason they feel guilt or shame over something that happened in the past.. then they can say sorry and make amends. If they don't (or you don't) then let the past be past. But it think its really low to bashing them for doing something as simple as saying sorry and lighting a few candles.


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## tellner (Jan 1, 2008)

As long as they're good Christians now and say grace before eating I suppose it's alright :shrug:


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## arnisador (Jan 1, 2008)

Well, nothing wrong with them trying to be polite, but I agree with the PC concerns. It was a different time and place.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 1, 2008)

grydth said:


> As I've said, applying modern "values", if we actually have any, to past situations is fruitless.
> 
> The apology and reparations racket is dandy, for some, and it keeps the hate alive. We're getting like the Balkans with that. We recycle more hate than we do paper or glass.
> 
> ...


 
You and I think along the same lines.  We cannot control what happened in the past but we sure can control and hopefully improve what happens in the here and now and also in the future!


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## Cryozombie (Jan 1, 2008)

tellner said:


> As long as they're good Christians now and say grace before eating I suppose it's alright :shrug:



I dont appreciate that much.


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## searcher (Jan 1, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> I dont appreciate that much.


 

Nor I.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 1, 2008)

Does this mean I have to apologize for Frederick the Great of Prussia for his part in starting the 7 years war... and invading Selesia, even though neither Prussia or Selesia exists any longerhe is one of my ancestors


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## MA-Caver (Jan 1, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Does this mean I have to apologize for Frederick the Great of Prussia for his part in starting the 7 years war... and invading Selesia, even though neither Prussia or Selesia exists any longerhe is one of my ancestors


In YOUR case..... yes. 


(j/k)


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## tellner (Jan 2, 2008)

Let's call it half an apology then. The Catholics have gone back to calling for my forcible conversion, and it's not clear whether the Pope has gone back to calling down "G-d's curse on the perfidious Jew". The Protestant Fundamentalists have stated that I'm supposed to be shipped off to Israel to be killed so that Jesus will be *able* to return (as if anything a human being did could compel the All in All). The Baptists have declared that I am to be made a target of repeated conversion attempts whether I'm interested or not.

Individual Christians are great. I'm a bit fed up with the major denominations when they get a taste of power and the bit between their teeth.


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## Big Don (Jan 2, 2008)

tellner said:


> Let's call it half an apology then. The Catholics have gone back to calling for my forcible conversion, and it's not clear whether the Pope has gone back to calling down "G-d's curse on the perfidious Jew". The Protestant Fundamentalists have stated that I'm supposed to be shipped off to Israel to be killed so that Jesus will be *able* to return (as if anything a human being did could compel the All in All). The Baptists have declared that I am to be made a target of repeated conversion attempts whether I'm interested or not.
> 
> Individual Christians are great. I'm a bit fed up with the major denominations when they get a taste of power and the bit between their teeth.


More bigotry is an apology for previous bigotry?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 2, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> In YOUR case..... yes.
> 
> 
> (j/k)


 
:lol:

I can't begin to explain how much I needed that laugh this morning, thanks.


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## The Last Legionary (Jan 2, 2008)

Big Don said:


> More bigotry is an apology for previous bigotry?


 
I don't see bigotry there, I see statements of fact.



tellner said:


> Let's call it half an apology then. The Catholics have gone back to calling for my forcible conversion, and it's not clear whether the Pope has gone back to calling down "G-d's curse on the perfidious Jew". The Protestant Fundamentalists have stated that I'm supposed to be shipped off to Israel to be killed so that Jesus will be *able* to return (as if anything a human being did could compel the All in All). The Baptists have declared that I am to be made a target of repeated conversion attempts whether I'm interested or not.
> 
> Individual Christians are great. I'm a bit fed up with the major denominations when they get a taste of power and the bit between their teeth.


 
Can you prove any of those statements of fact?



MA-Caver said:


> Well, (white) Americans were supposed to apologize to (black) Americans for the Slavery, Americans in general were supposed to apologize to Japan for the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, supposed to apologize to Native Americans for atrocities committed in the 1800's, Germans were supposed to apologize for the Holocaust, NOBODY seems interested in trying to make Russia or the former USSR apologize for their actions against Jews behind the Iron Curtain. Japanese were supposed to apologize for actions against the Chinese during World War II, hmm, lessee... oh ok, the Brits for their actions against India when that country was seeking it's independence... Lets not forget (white) Aussies for trying to wipe out Aborigines in their respective country....
> 
> Gee seems everybody owes somebody somewhere an apology. Except of course ... hmm... Eskimos, Aborigines, tribes deep in Amazonian/African jungles, and a few other indigenous peoples.
> 
> ...


 
I'm sorry that I'm so great, and so many others aint!



grydth said:


> As I've said, applying modern "values", if we actually have any, to past situations is fruitless.
> 
> The apology and reparations racket is dandy, for some, and it keeps the hate alive. We're getting like the Balkans with that. We recycle more hate than we do paper or glass.
> 
> ...


 
You're making sense here. Stop it. That is the last thing we need.



tellner said:


> As long as they're good Christians now and say grace before eating I suppose it's alright :shrug:


 
Now that's funny. I always say grace before eating a missionary. But not a Fryer.  Too fatty.



Cryozombie said:


> I dont appreciate that much.


 


searcher said:


> Nor I.


 
Just remember, it's ok to kill a non-Christian. The Pope said so.
It's an old ruling, but I don't believe it was ever recinded.

But, let us continue the racism and bigotry here as we put modern values on ancient activities. It shines such a nice light on people. Ok, it's not a nice light, yer all ugly, and, and, your mothers dress you funny.
Now, lets all get together and kill each other for god like in the old days heh?


*IV*


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## donna (Jan 2, 2008)

As soon as someone says "sorry" for things that happened in history, all the decendents of the "victims" start to bellow for compensation!!. To me it seems that saying sorry has lost its true meaning.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 2, 2008)

donna said:


> As soon as someone says "sorry" for things that happened in history, all the decendents of the "victims" start to bellow for compensation!!. To me it seems that saying sorry has lost its true meaning.


Nah, it just like Elizabeth Browning's poem only re-written by an attorney: 
How much are you sorry?
Let me count the ways...
1 Million
2 Million
3 Million
4 Million.... (and so forth)

... at least until the lawyer's fee can pay off their new Rolls Royce with the deluxe leather interior.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 2, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> In YOUR case..... yes.
> 
> 
> (j/k)


 
oops, I almost forgot.
I apologize to Selesia for my ancestor Frederick the Great of Prussia

Sorry Selesia


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## grydth (Jan 2, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> oops, I almost forgot.
> I apologize to Selesia for my ancestor Frederick the Great of Prussia
> 
> Sorry Selesia



I'm sure Silesia forgives you.... but, as FTG  undoubtedly offended my ancestors of the era in some battle or other, there is a small matter of reparations. Paying my supporting membership here for the next 3 years would be a suitable balm for an injury which has festered unrecompensed for centuries now.

Another thing, what is all this "the Great" business? 

How come nobody ever claims to be descended from Siegfried the Mediocre or Alexander the So-so?  I think this "the great" business adds some mental anguish to my damages. Make that 4 years of Supporting Membership - and you're getting off easy!


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 2, 2008)

grydth said:


> I'm sure Silesia forgives you.... but, as FTG undoubtedly offended my ancestors of the era in some battle or other, there is a small matter of reparations. Paying my supporting membership here for the next 3 years would be a suitable balm for an injury which has festered unrecompensed for centuries now.
> 
> Another thing, what is all this "the Great" business?
> 
> How come nobody ever claims to be descended from Siegfried the Mediocre or Alexander the So-so? I think this "the great" business adds some mental anguish to my damages. Make that 4 years of Supporting Membership - and you're getting off easy!


 
Well would anyone have followed a guy named Fred the Mediocre into battle  

And actually I am not sure if I am a direct decendant of Fredrick's or his brother Prince Henry (the not so great) and if I can believe my ex-wife, and lord know I shouldn't, also related to the current royal family in England in some way and since it is always best to go for deep pockets....


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 2, 2008)

One final thing on this whole Selesia and my ancestor Frederick the Great of Prussia... ultimately 

:lisafault:


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## Andrew Green (Jan 3, 2008)

> The head of the mission, English pastor George Brown, avenged the killings by taking part in an expedition that resulted in the deaths of a number of tribespeople and the torching of several villages.



Ouch...  turn the other cheek indeed.  

From the avenging actions of the head of the mission, I'm going to guess that they where not the "Not interested?  Ok, we'll be on our way." sort of missionaries.

Wonder if the church will apologize for killing their people, torching their villages and attempting to kill their belief systems...

Should they have to apologize?  No, the people apologizing didn't do anything wrong, and you can't be held accountable for the actions of your ancestors IMO.

On the other hand the people are different, but the tribe / church / state / etc. often remain.  A year from now the US will have a new president, very likely with a different political party.  If whoever is running it pulls all troops out of the middle east do you think the Iraqi people would just go "Blank slate, you guys didn't do this, it was your predecessor. "  No, the US still remains, even with different people running it.  An apology on behalf of a individual is kind of pointless, but one on behalf of the country might help repair wounds.

Same as the church, yes, no one alive today had anything to do with the Inquisition.  Most of the people that implemented and ran residential schools are dead as well.  But the impact of those actions in peoples minds is still there. In the case of residential schools much more so then the inquisition as there are survivors of that still around.  An apology is more a way of saying "We, as a organization, have changed.  We regret the actions of our predecessors and agree that they where wrong, we promise not to repeat those actions."

At the end of the day people hold grudges against organizations and countries long after the people that ran them have died. Somewhere along the line someone has to step up and try to mend the wounds, even if they weren't alive when the wound was created.  Sometimes even when there side was the ones doing the "right" thing.


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## searcher (Jan 3, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well would anyone have followed a guy named Fred the Mediocre into battle


 


:rofl:


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 3, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well would anyone have followed a guy named Fred the Mediocre into battle



This is why GW doesn't lead from the front.......


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## grydth (Jan 3, 2008)

The troops have enough problems without the type of frontline 'leadership' that this President, or Bill and Hellary Clinton, would render.

The only result would be meaningless apologies from their descendants in future centuries - who will probably still rule what's left of the country.


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## grydth (Jan 3, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well would anyone have followed a guy named Fred the Mediocre into battle
> 
> And actually I am not sure if I am a direct decendant of Fredrick's or his brother Prince Henry (the not so great) and if I can believe my ex-wife, and lord know I shouldn't, also related to the current royal family in England in some way and since it is always best to go for deep pockets....



How'd you get your ex-wife to come up with such an illustrious heritage for you? 

Anything my ex would claim as to my origins, I should not want printed here!  Actually, I'm not sure I'd want to hear the _curent_ wife's speculations......


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 3, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> Ouch...  turn the other cheek indeed.
> 
> From the avenging actions of the head of the mission, I'm going to guess that they where not the "Not interested?  Ok, we'll be on our way." sort of missionaries.
> 
> ...


But what timeframe is in order?

People want apologies for things done decades, centuries, even a millenium ago.


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## Cirdan (Jan 4, 2008)

Two cannibals meet one day. The first cannibal says, "You know, I just can't seem to get a tender Missionary. I've baked them, I've roasted them, I've stewed them, I've barbecued them, I've tried every sort of marinade. I just can't seem to get them tender."
The second cannibal asks, "What kind of Missionary do you use?"
The other replied, "You know, the ones that hang out at that place at the bend of the river. They have those brown cloaks with a rope around the waist and they're sort of bald on top with a funny ring of hair on their heads."
"Ah, ha!" the second cannibal replies. "No wonder ... those are FRIARS!"

Two missionaries in Africa were apprehended by a tribe of very hostile cannibals who put them in a large pot of water, build a huge fire under it, and left them there. A few minutes later, one of the missionaries started to laugh uncontrollably.
The other missionary was incredulous, and said, "What's wrong with you? We're being boiled alive! They're going to eat us! What could possibly be funny at a time like this?"
The laughing missionary said, "I just peed in their soup!"

These two cannibals kill a missionary. They argue for a while about how to divide him up, when finally, one of them says, "Okay. You start at the head and I'll start at the feet."
So they begin their tasty feast. After a while one of them says, "Hey, this is really great. I'm having a ball."
"Slow down!" cries the other cannibal "You're eating too fast!"


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 4, 2008)

grydth said:


> How'd you get your ex-wife to come up with such an illustrious heritage for you?
> 
> Anything my ex would claim as to my origins, I should not want printed here! Actually, I'm not sure I'd want to hear the _curent_ wife's speculations......


 
I knew the Fred the Great stuff long before I meant her that is just a family thing. But the rest she came up with because she was a frustrated Historian. She studied history constantly and her specialty was European history and she had an infatuation with royalty and after reading several books she sat down and started telling me how, through Fred, I was connected to the Royal Family in England. I never really cared enough to look into it further so I have no idea if it is true or not, I am just trying to get you off of looking for reparations form me and pointing you in the direction of the Queen.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 4, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> But what timeframe is in order?
> 
> People want apologies for things done decades, centuries, even a millenium ago.



As long as the organization that committed the acts exists I imagine there will be people wanting apologies for past actions.

I really don't see what the harm is though, if the Church where too apologize for the crusades, that is good IMO.  It's recognizing that those actions where a mistake, and represent a belief that the church no longer holds.

If the church wanted an apology for feeding Christians to lions, well they are going to have a hard time finding the Roman Empire to get it from.  

But it really depends on the situation, for a long time the Catholic church has maintained that the popes words are the words of God, and infallible.  So if a long dead pope did some very nasty things, combined with a statement that popes are infallible, then that might be seen as still supporting the actions of the long dead pope, in which case a "well, that was perhaps not one of his infallible moments" might be in order.

If people started demanding reparations, that is a different matter.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 4, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> As long as the organization that committed the acts exists I imagine there will be people wanting apologies for past actions.
> 
> I really don't see what the harm is though, if the Church where too apologize for the crusades, that is good IMO. It's recognizing that those actions where a mistake, and represent a belief that the church no longer holds.
> 
> ...


 
So do the Mohawk Indians (of the Iroquois Confederacy) owe the Jesuits an apology for killing off 3 of their priests (in the 1600s) who brought them the gift of small pox? Or do the Jesuits owe the Mohawks an apology for bringing them small pox? Or do we call it even?


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## Andrew Green (Jan 4, 2008)

Never said the PNG folks owed an appology, as far as I am concerned they where on their land following their rules.  Missionaries came in and tried to strip there beliefs and replace them, got what they deserved.  Given the actions of their leader afterwards, I'm pretty sure they weren't there with terribly friendly intentions in the first place.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 4, 2008)

Yeah, 'cause, y'know, our generation should be held responsible for things people did however many generations ago who we may not even be RELLATED to.....[/dripping sarcasm]


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 4, 2008)

_or a long time the Catholic church has maintained that the popes words are the words of God, and infallible._


Just as a note, only when the pope speaks "ex cathedra" or "from the chair" and there are limits to how it is used and what it means.  Catholics do not believe that the pope is infallible in everything he says ('ex cathedra' has only been used once since 1870 and that was on a matter of doctrine)


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## Ceicei (Jan 4, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> _or a long time the Catholic church has maintained that the popes words are the words of God, and infallible._
> 
> 
> Just as a note, only when the pope speaks "ex cathedra" or "from the chair" and there are limits to how it is used and what it means.  Catholics do not believe that the pope is infallible in everything he says ('ex cathedra' has only been used once since 1870 and that was on a matter of doctrine)



Only once since then?  Didn't the words of the Pope hold more weight on a frequent basis when he speaks out every now and then each year from the Vatican?

- Ceicei


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