# black belts



## senseiblackbelt (Aug 21, 2016)

what is the difference between the first/second and third dan in black belts? 
And when i mean difference i mean difference in what you learn when you go up in belts.


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2016)

About a hundred pounds in grading fees.


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## KangTsai (Aug 21, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> what is the difference between the first/second and third dan in black belts?
> And when i mean difference i mean difference in what you learn when you go up in belts.


What martial art to you actually train in?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 21, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> what is the difference between the first/second and third dan in black belts?
> And when i mean difference i mean difference in what you learn when you go up in belts.


That depends entirely upon the art and school. Even within NGA (my primary art), there's a difference from one association (and some independent schools) to the next, and between the mainline and Shojin-ryu.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 22, 2016)

It means you're further along in the curriculum for that particular school. Without being specific about the school, there's no way to give a better answer.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> what is the difference between the first/second and third dan in black belts?
> And when i mean difference i mean difference in what you learn when you go up in belts.


In my system, the difference are:

1st - offense skill
2nd - tournament experience
3rd - defense and counter skill
4th and up - contributation


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## Tames D (Aug 22, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In my system, the difference are:
> 
> 1st - offense skill
> 2nd - tournament experience
> ...


Does this mean that a student can not advance beyond 1st if they have no interest in competing in tournaments? Is your system a sport based system?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Does this mean that a student can not advance beyond 1st if they have no interest in competing in tournaments? Is your system a sport based system?


That's true. If a student has no interest in tournament competition, he will stay in his 1st degree for the rest of his life. It's a "sport" base system and "sport" experience is a must.


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## Tames D (Aug 22, 2016)

Fair


Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's true. If a student has no interest in tournament competition, he will stay in his 1st degree for the rest of his life. It's a "sport" base system and "sport" experience is a must.


Fair enough.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In my system, the difference are:
> 
> 1st - offense skill
> 2nd - tournament experience
> ...



This lines up with what I've seen in other groups. In the system I came up in (NGAA), it was:

1st - Defensive skill, technical competence, instructor certification ("Instructor")
2nd - Higher competency at higher skills (blending, jumping kicks. weapons use), instructor trainer certification ("Chief Instructor")
3rd-5th - contribution to the art/association
6th - theoretically head-of-style (though he never took that rank - likely will promote his successor to it when he retires)


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 22, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> what is the difference between the first/second and third dan in black belts?
> And when i mean difference i mean difference in what you learn when you go up in belts.



That would depend on where you're training at. Where I've trained it mostly means you would know more katas.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> 1st - Defensive skill, technical competence, instructor certification ("Instructor")


Some MA systems don't like to teach "defense and counter" in the beginner training stage (for example, 3 years later). Those system want their students to act like a tiger and trying to eat their opponent alive - attack, attack, and still attack.

The long hair guy in this clip has that "tiger spirit".


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## Buka (Aug 22, 2016)

First black - kind of fun. After that, not so much anymore.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 22, 2016)

Buka said:


> First black - kind of fun. After that, not so much anymore.



Hey now, its after you get your first black belt that's when the real fun starts.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 22, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Hey now, its after you get your first black belt that's when the real fun starts.


It's the effort to fulfill odd requirements (martial politics, tournament, writing) yo advance that is not so fun.


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## Buka (Aug 23, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Hey now, its after you get your first black belt that's when the real fun starts.



True, it does. But that's when the belt doesn't really matter any more. In a rank system, we all want to get that black one....and, then, you know.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 23, 2016)

Buka said:


> True, it does. But that's when the belt doesn't really matter any more. In a rank system, we all want to get that black one....and, then, you know.



Some people want further rank advancement after making first degree black belt and some don't but just want to keep getting better. Some people are satisfied getting to a lower rank such as brown belt and after that don't care for any further advancement. And then there are those who don't care much for rank advancement at all, they're in the martial arts for other reasons. As for me, I see getting the first black belt as a rite of passage, but that's just me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some people want further rank advancement after making first degree black belt and some don't but just want to keep getting better. Some people are satisfied getting to a lower rank such as brown belt and after that don't care for any further advancement. And then there are those who don't care much for rank advancement at all, they're in the martial arts for other reasons. As for me, I see getting the first black belt as a rite of passage, but that's just me.


Most folks in a ranking system will see it the same way. It's part of the culture we adopt when we stay in those systems long enough. It's actually one of the reasons I shifted instructor certification to 2nd dan, so folks not interested in being certified instructors could reach black belt (something they could not do in the system I came up through). I think most folks who have no interest in rank either learn an interest after joining a system with ranks, or they lose interest in that system and find something without ranks (or with very few).


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 23, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Most folks in a ranking system will see it the same way. It's part of the culture we adopt when we stay in those systems long enough. It's actually one of the reasons I shifted instructor certification to 2nd dan, so folks not interested in being certified instructors could reach black belt (something they could not do in the system I came up through). I think most folks who have no interest in rank either learn an interest after joining a system with ranks, or they lose interest in that system and find something without ranks (or with very few).



Or, as in my case, they enjoy a system with rank, but don't really worry about progressing through the ranks. I'm told to promote, so I do. Otherwise, I just do my thing.


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## pgsmith (Aug 23, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> what is the difference between the first/second and third dan in black belts?
> And when i mean difference i mean difference in what you learn when you go up in belts.


  As has been said, it is entirely dependent upon the art and school.
  The thing that most people that don't practice a martial art fail to understand, is that a "black belt" only means something *within the organization that granted said rank.* A black belt in a Wado ryu karate organization means absolutely nothing in BJJ or kendo or Taekwondo. It only means something within the Wado ryu organization that granted the belt. Heck it doesn't even mean anything to a different Wado ryu organization, unless they've got a reciprocal agreement in place saying that they'll recognize the other organization's ranks. (Just using Wado ryu as an example. I don't even know if there is more than one Wado ryu organization.  )

  I hold various dan ranks in three different sword arts and four organizations. One had a very detailed progression where you were required to know and perform certain kata and techniques to progress through the ranks. Another had only six kata for rank testing. The same six kata were performed for a panel consisting of the head of the school and the main instructors from Japan and U.S. for every rank test. Your demeanor and performance determined whether they thought you were ready for the next rank.

  So, to get a definitive answer to your question it would need to be much more detailed as to which art and organization, since different schools and organizations have different ideals and different methodologies for attaining those ideals.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Or, as in my case, they enjoy a system with rank, but don't really worry about progressing through the ranks. I'm told to promote, so I do. Otherwise, I just do my thing.


There are those. I mostly moved up in student ranks because that was the only way to get to the next part of the curriculum. After that, I progressed to black because that was the path to get certified as an instructor.


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## JR 137 (Aug 23, 2016)

The OP mentioned Kyokushin in another thread.

Kyokushin dan ranks mean learning different kata, techniques/strategies, perhaps different weapons (depending on the IKO and/or instructor).

Kyokushin in most countries has competition requirements to advance.  They're not based on the outcome, but if you competed.  Depending on the rank, you need to have competed locally, nationally, and internationally.  There are exceptions for age, disability, affordability, and number of competitions available.  There aren't very many Kyokushin/knockdown tournaments in the US, but Europe, Japan and Asia are different.  This is allegedly more for quality control than for competition sake; in bigger competitions, you face more opponents from various areas, so it's to make you get out of your comfort zone and apply what you've learned against unknown and fully resisting opponents.

Competition isn't really going to get you to advance in rank.  There's been many lower dan ranks who've won the All-Japan and World Open tournaments.  By lower dan, I mean 3rd, give or take 1.

But with most promotions in dan rank, you learn a bit more, but it's mainly improving yourself and your art.  The highest dan ranks are typically awarded for advancing the art; teaching for a long time, promoting many people, your students going on to be what you were, etc.

Every school has different requirements, therefore there's no good answer to "what does a higher dan ranking mean?"


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 24, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> As has been said, it is entirely dependent upon the art and school.
> The thing that most people that don't practice a martial art fail to understand, is that a "black belt" only means something *within the organization that granted said rank.* A black belt in a Wado ryu karate organization means absolutely nothing in BJJ or kendo or Taekwondo. It only means something within the Wado ryu organization that granted the belt. Heck it doesn't even mean anything to a different Wado ryu organization, unless they've got a reciprocal agreement in place saying that they'll recognize the other organization's ranks. (Just using Wado ryu as an example. I don't even know if there is more than one Wado ryu organization.  )


True enough. But I do think that most people know that even those that don't train in the martial arts. Most people with experience in martial arts and I suppose even lots of people who don't have experience with martial arts know that BJJ, Kendo, and Taekwondo are radically different but for people who do train in martial arts most of them know that even among similar styles or the same style taught by different organizations that any belts you earn apply to only the school or organization where you earned it. 

However, knowing that you've earned a belt at a good reputable school where you have to work hard to get it, that is what I call an accomplishment and I believe it is something to strive for and something to feel good about if you do it, but that's just me.

And of course no matter what belt you get or what level you reach there is always more to learn, always ways to improve. The learning never stops.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> True enough. But I do think that most people know that even those that don't train in the martial arts. Most people with experience in martial arts and I suppose even lots of people who don't have experience with martial arts know that BJJ, Kendo, and Taekwondo are radically different but for people who do train in martial arts most of them know that even among similar styles or the same style taught by different organizations that any belts you earn apply to only the school or organization where you earned it.
> 
> However, knowing that you've earned a belt at a good reputable school where you have to work hard to get it, that is what I call an accomplishment and I believe it is something to strive for and something to feel good about if you do it, but that's just me.
> 
> And of course no matter what belt you get or what level you reach there is always more to learn, always ways to improve. The learning never stops.


I don't think most people outside MA understand this, at all. To them, for the most part, BB represents some near-mystical level of mastery. For those of us who have some significant amount of training (I don't know what that means - definitely more than a year for most folks), it eventually becomes clear that BB is often a watershed rank, but is nothing magical. We don't become invincible, etc.

There are systems where BB is fairly easy to reach. I used to have an issue with that on principle, but I've come to accept that it's just a difference in how they use rank. I'm not talking about the schools that give away black belts without delivering effective training, I'm just talking about those who use that rank as a starting point for students to advance from after they have some basic competency. As long as there is rigor in the training long-term, I don't really care if they give the BB as the first belt to hold the dogi closed. It won't mean the same thing mine does, and that's okay.
_
I'm rambling a bit...no coffee yet._


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 3, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think most people outside MA understand this, at all. To them, for the most part, BB represents some near-mystical level of mastery. For those of us who have some significant amount of training (I don't know what that means - definitely more than a year for most folks), it eventually becomes clear that BB is often a watershed rank, but is nothing magical. We don't become invincible, etc.
> 
> There are systems where BB is fairly easy to reach. I used to have an issue with that on principle, but I've come to accept that it's just a difference in how they use rank. I'm not talking about the schools that give away black belts without delivering effective training, I'm just talking about those who use that rank as a starting point for students to advance from after they have some basic competency. As long as there is rigor in the training long-term, I don't really care if they give the BB as the first belt to hold the dogi closed. It won't mean the same thing mine does, and that's okay.
> _
> I'm rambling a bit...no coffee yet._



I do agree that there is nothing magical about the black belt, it is just one belt after brown or whatever system your dojo uses. Yes there are some dojos where BB is quite easy to reach and as such I've come to the conclusion a long time ago that its not just the belt that matters but also where and how you got it. As you pointed out, there is nothing mystical or magical about the black belt and it doesn't make you a grand master or anything. As such, what I don't get is why lots of dojos make a big deal about promoting a student from brown to black (assuming that they're training in a system where black is right after brown.) As I said its just one belt up so I don't see the point in making it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up any of the other earlier belts. JR137 I believe mentioned something about his dojo being a bit like that and it would be interesting to read what he has to say about it if he responds to this thread. He has made some good contributions.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> I do agree that there is nothing magical about the black belt, it is just one belt after brown or whatever system your dojo uses. Yes there are some dojos where BB is quite easy to reach and as such I've come to the conclusion a long time ago that its not just the belt that matters but also where and how you got it. As you pointed out, there is nothing mystical or magical about the black belt and it doesn't make you a grand master or anything. As such, what I don't get is why lots of dojos make a big deal about promoting a student from brown to black (assuming that they're training in a system where black is right after brown.) As I said its just one belt up so I don't see the point in making it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up any of the other earlier belts. JR137 I believe mentioned something about his dojo being a bit like that and it would be interesting to read what he has to say about it if he responds to this thread. He has made some good contributions.


In many styles (including the mainline of NGA, and to a lesser extent in Shojin-ryu), there is a purposeful difference between brown and black. We consciously draw a line and say "On one side of this line, you may be an average student. On the other side, you must excel." In the mainline of NGA, shodan (first degree black) promotion includes instructor certification (training at brown includes a minimum of a year of student teaching), so there are very strict requirements to get that rank. It is, in my opinion, the hardest rank to get. For those who pursue it, nidan is actually often easier because of all the work they had to do (and all they had to learn) to reach shodan.

I've maintained most of that in Shojin-ryu, except for the instructor certification. BB is still damnably hard to get to, but should take a bit less time, since student teaching comes after reaching shodan (making that optional, allowing for those who don't wish to teach), and nidan is the instructor rank.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 7, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> In many styles (including the mainline of NGA, and to a lesser extent in Shojin-ryu), there is a purposeful difference between brown and black. We consciously draw a line and say "On one side of this line, you may be an average student. On the other side, you must excel." In the mainline of NGA, shodan (first degree black) promotion includes instructor certification (training at brown includes a minimum of a year of student teaching), so there are very strict requirements to get that rank. It is, in my opinion, the hardest rank to get. For those who pursue it, nidan is actually often easier because of all the work they had to do (and all they had to learn) to reach shodan.
> 
> I've maintained most of that in Shojin-ryu, except for the instructor certification. BB is still damnably hard to get to, but should take a bit less time, since student teaching comes after reaching shodan (making that optional, allowing for those who don't wish to teach), and nidan is the instructor rank.



I see. So are your instructors from the USA?


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## JR 137 (Sep 7, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> As such, what I don't get is why lots of dojos make a big deal about promoting a student from brown to black (assuming that they're training in a system where black is right after brown.) As I said its just one belt up so I don't see the point in making it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up any of the other earlier belts. JR137 I believe mentioned something about his dojo being a bit like that and it would be interesting to read what he has to say about it if he responds to this thread. He has made some good contributions.



Not quoted, yet I agree with it - there's nothing magical nor mystical about a black belt.

My former school and current school do make black belt tests much harder than the rest.  That's all I know, and I like that approach.

Yes, black is literally the next color after brown (or whatever color a particular system uses; I think most TKD schools use red), but there's a big difference between what's expected from a black belt and a colored belt student.  Not in a bad way, but colored belts tend to be promoted when they're good enough (relatively speaking).  Black belts are held to a much higher standard in this regard.  People routinely fail black belt tests.  A classmate I'm close to promoted to 1st dan about 6 months ago.  Out of approximately 30 candidates from various dojos, I think 22 were promoted.  They weren't called out publicly, but after each night, there were less people the next session.  They were taken aside at the end of the session and told behind closed doors they needed more time before they tested again.  My CI has never had anyone fail a black belt test in his 30+ years teaching.  Keep in mind it's the head of the organization doing the testing, not him.  He's there to assist his teacher and support his students.  

Black belts are expected to be leaders or role models.  They set the tone in class, and they're expected to help people below them.  They're supposed to have a quiet dignity about them, and not a "look at me" mentality.  While they're not experts, they are a lot closer to it than the beginners are; they should be able to easily explain and/or demonstrate stuff to people below them.  Not in a running a class sense, but in a helping students out sense and being someone lower ranks can look at if they're stuck during class.

Failing a colored belt test is quite rare, failing a black belt test happens more than often enough to say it happens.  But just like testing for a colored belt, black belt candidates are invited to test when their CI feels they're ready and not when the student feels they're ready (although a student can respectfully decline taking the test).

I know, 1st dan is just one step up from brown belt, but it's a big step.  It's hard to put into words, but if you were a student at our dojo, you'd understand.  It's a cultural thing I guess.  Not that what we do is inherently better not worse than what anyone else does (so long as they're not just handed out to anyone who's paid).

A black belt is someone the lower ranks are supposed to look up to.  Not from a guru standpoint, but from a knowledge and technique standpoint.  You've got to prove you're worthy.  Some believe in a demanding physical test, others believe that the test is every minute you're on the floor.  Both are correct, and even in dojos with rigorous black belt tests, you still have to earn the invitation to test.  I prefer the hard test personally, but again, it's all I know.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 7, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> I see. So are your instructors from the USA?


NGA, so far as we know, only exists in the USA. The original dojo in Chitose (Hokkaido prefecture) closed sometime in the 1970's, I think.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2016)

I learned something new tonight.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 8, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> NGA, so far as we know, only exists in the USA. The original dojo in Chitose (Hokkaido prefecture) closed sometime in the 1970's, I think.



If the NGA only exists in the USA it still could've been founded and run by people from the orient. Are your instructors originally from the orient or are they born in the USA?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> If the NGA only exists in the USA it still could've been founded and run by people from the orient. Are your instructors originally from the orient or are they born in the USA?


It was founded in Japan (as I said, in Hokkaido prefecture). Richard Bowe studied under Morita Shodo when he was stationed in Japan, and brought the art to the US in 1962 (I'm pulling that year from my memory, so I might be off a bit) when Morita died. The dojo in Chitose was taken over by Nara Tominosuke (Morita's step-son), who became the head of the art. Some years later, Nara stopped teaching publicly (he apparently continued teaching some private lessons) and closed the dojo. Upon Nara's death, as far as we know, there were no instructors teaching NGA in Japan (nor anywhere else, except the US). NGA exists today solely because of Richard Bowe's efforts here in the US.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 12, 2016)

So gpseymour and JR 137 thank you for your responses. You both said some really meaningful stuff. Anyway I would first like to point some stuff out. Most of this should be obvious but I just want to clarify it for good measure. First of all in terms of belts and the order they go in every school has its own system. Ranking systems with colored belts vary from dojo to dojo and brown might not necessarily be the belt right before black. JR 137 as you said there are some TKD schools where red is right before black. Well for sake of discussion in my example Im using a system where brown is right before black because its a common system in lots of dojos. Also, in some systems with the belts in between white and black there might be multiple levels per belt, for instance, a system might have multiple levels of brown belt. Again for sake of discussion and for sake of simplicity in my example there is only one level of brown belt. So with my example you reach brown and then right after that would be black. 

So anyway, what you both said about it being a huge step from brown to black, from what I know that is very much an American thing. In Japan supposedly black belt is simply the belt after brown and they don't make such a big deal of promoting a student from brown to black like they do in the USA. Naturally of course the black belt test is going to be harder than any of the tests for the previous belts simply because its a more advanced belt but as far as it being proportionally harder not so much. In Japan it will not take proportionally much longer or be proportionally much harder to promote from brown to black than it will be to promote up to any of the previous belts. JR 137 I believe you said in another thread that you have a background as a school teacher. That can work well in this discussion and make for some good analogies. Lets say a high school or college student is taking a bunch of history classes, the first year or semester they take History I, than after that they take History II then History III and finally History IV. Now, History IV is not necessarily any harder than History III, II, or I its simply sequential. From what I know the belt system in Japan including the black belt is more like that. 

Now, also, from what I know about the belt system in Japan, when it starts to get really hard is after you make black belt and you want to advance up the various black belt degrees. Getting from 1st degree to 2nd degree is going to be really hard and getting from 2nd degree to 3rd degree is going to be harder still and so forth. That does make sense. As it is, I can tell you from my own experience that after you make black belt it doesn't get easier it gets harder. For one thing they expect more out of you but also you expect more out of yourself. 

In the USA though supposedly its much easier, after you make black belt, to be promoted up the various degrees than it is in Japan.

So that is what I know about how things differ in the two cultures in regards to getting promoted to black belt and getting promoted beyond that if you pursue the higher degrees. So what is your take on the two systems?


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 13, 2016)

Usually the number of white stripes on your belt.


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## JR 137 (Sep 13, 2016)

@PhotonGuy 

In my post, I was using brown as referring to brown as the last belt before black.

As far as things being different here vs Japan, my Kaicho was born and raised in Japan.  Tadashi Nakamura was sent to the US by Mas Oyama to spread Kyokushin.  He left Kyokushin in 1976 and formed Seido Juku (the system I'm in).  My teacher has been his student since before he left Kyokushin and tested for 1st (and possibly 2nd) dan under him during the Kyokushin days.  He claims the black belt tests were just as difficult back then as they are now.  A bit different in what they did, but there was still a big difference in the difficulty between brown and 1st dan.

My former organization's founder was also Nakamura's student before he left and started his own organization.

I don't know about the rest of Japan, but Nakamura wasn't doing anything differently in this regard than what he was doing as the head instructor in Kyokushin's honbu in Tokyo.  Maybe it's more a Kyokushin thing than a rest of Japan thing?  Shigeru Oyama (no relation to Mas Oyama) also allegedly kept this practice when he left Kyokushin and started Oyama karate.  Nakamura and Shigeru Oyama occasionally tested each other's students for black belt after both had left Kyokushin.  My instructor nor any of his students didn't test under Shigeru Oyama, but several of his classmates did; he also assisted tests when Shigeru Oyama's students were tested.

Not sure how the rest of Japan views the jump between brown and black belt (assuming brown is the last colored belt), but these guys came to the US as high ranking black belts from Japan.  Both were the top instructors in Kyokushin's honbu before being sent here by Mas Oyama.


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## pgsmith (Sep 13, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> In my post, I was using brown as referring to brown as the last belt before black.
> 
> As far as things being different here vs Japan, my Kaicho was born and raised in Japan.  Tadashi Nakamura was sent to the US by Mas Oyama to spread Kyokushin.  He left Kyokushin in 1976 and formed Seido Juku (the system I'm in).  My teacher has been his student since before he left Kyokushin and tested for 1st (and possibly 2nd) dan under him during the Kyokushin days.  He claims the black belt tests were just as difficult back then as they are now.  A bit different in what they did, but there was still a big difference in the difficulty between brown and 1st dan.



  Here is the Japanese perspective as seen through my eyes and the Japanese arts that I've practiced. Shodan (1st black) and above are referred to as yudansha, which literally means those who have a dan rank. Colored belts (in some arts they have kyu ranks rather than colored belt ranks) are referred to as mudansha, which literally means those who have no dan rank. A dan ranking means that a person has understood the very basics, and can now begin actually practicing the art. In Japan, you are literally not a *real* student until you have achieved a dan ranking. This is why a black belt test is considerably more difficult than a colored belt test in any art that I am familiar with. Shodan is the first "real" ranking. The colored belts (or kyu grades) are there just to let a person know how they are progressing, and for ease in competitions for sport arts.


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## JR 137 (Sep 13, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Here is the Japanese perspective as seen through my eyes and the Japanese arts that I've practiced. Shodan (1st black) and above are referred to as yudansha, which literally means those who have a dan rank. Colored belts (in some arts they have kyu ranks rather than colored belt ranks) are referred to as mudansha, which literally means those who have no dan rank. A dan ranking means that a person has understood the very basics, and can now begin actually practicing the art. In Japan, you are literally not a *real* student until you have achieved a dan ranking. This is why a black belt test is considerably more difficult than a colored belt test in any art that I am familiar with. Shodan is the first "real" ranking. The colored belts (or kyu grades) are there just to let a person know how they are progressing, and for ease in competitions for sport arts.



Excellent post.  I'd rate it agree, like, informative, etc., but I can only choose one.  Although students here in the US are usually seen as "real students," they're certainly not taken as seriously as yudansha (for the most part). There's a lot more turnover in kyu ranks than in yudansha, and kyu ranks generally haven't proven that they're going to stick around for a long time.  My former Sensei said he personally knew a few high ranking Japanese instructors who really only considered sandans and above serious students.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 15, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> So gpseymour and JR 137 thank you for your responses. You both said some really meaningful stuff. Anyway I would first like to point some stuff out. Most of this should be obvious but I just want to clarify it for good measure. First of all in terms of belts and the order they go in every school has its own system. Ranking systems with colored belts vary from dojo to dojo and brown might not necessarily be the belt right before black. JR 137 as you said there are some TKD schools where red is right before black. Well for sake of discussion in my example Im using a system where brown is right before black because its a common system in lots of dojos. Also, in some systems with the belts in between white and black there might be multiple levels per belt, for instance, a system might have multiple levels of brown belt. Again for sake of discussion and for sake of simplicity in my example there is only one level of brown belt. So with my example you reach brown and then right after that would be black.
> 
> So anyway, what you both said about it being a huge step from brown to black, from what I know that is very much an American thing. In Japan supposedly black belt is simply the belt after brown and they don't make such a big deal of promoting a student from brown to black like they do in the USA. Naturally of course the black belt test is going to be harder than any of the tests for the previous belts simply because its a more advanced belt but as far as it being proportionally harder not so much. In Japan it will not take proportionally much longer or be proportionally much harder to promote from brown to black than it will be to promote up to any of the previous belts. JR 137 I believe you said in another thread that you have a background as a school teacher. That can work well in this discussion and make for some good analogies. Lets say a high school or college student is taking a bunch of history classes, the first year or semester they take History I, than after that they take History II then History III and finally History IV. Now, History IV is not necessarily any harder than History III, II, or I its simply sequential. From what I know the belt system in Japan including the black belt is more like that.
> 
> ...


I think a lot of this goes back to differing definition of rank cut-offs. From what you're saying (and from what I've heard from others), it sounds like many Japanese schools treat black belt rank the way NGA treats brown, or maybe even purple (just before brown) in the mainline of NGA. For us, brown is normally the first belt with a significantly harder test - maybe twice as hard as previous tests. Black bumps that up another notch, being at least 50% tougher than brown, plus adding instructor training to achieve it. It takes a bare minimum of 1 year to go from brown to black in mainline - much longer than the minimum time at any previous rank - because of the instructor certification requirement. I think, for mainline, the instructor certification is the reason for the higher level of emphasis on black. If we re-colored the belts (making mainline's brown into black), you'd get something pretty much as you describe for the Japanese schools.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 15, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Colored belts (in some arts they have kyu ranks rather than colored belt ranks) are referred to as mudansha, which literally means those who have no dan rank.



That's interesting. In NGA, we use both colored belts and kyu ranks (white = rokkukyu in mainline, yonkyu in Shojin-ryu). It never occurred to me that the kyu ranks were used elsewhere like dan ranks, not needing different colored belts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 15, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Here is the Japanese perspective as seen through my eyes and the Japanese arts that I've practiced. Shodan (1st black) and above are referred to as yudansha, which literally means those who have a dan rank. Colored belts (in some arts they have kyu ranks rather than colored belt ranks) are referred to as mudansha, which literally means those who have no dan rank. A dan ranking means that a person has understood the very basics, and can now begin actually practicing the art. In Japan, you are literally not a *real* student until you have achieved a dan ranking. This is why a black belt test is considerably more difficult than a colored belt test in any art that I am familiar with. Shodan is the first "real" ranking. The colored belts (or kyu grades) are there just to let a person know how they are progressing, and for ease in competitions for sport arts.


Hmm, in mainline NGA, they say almost that exact thing when promoting someone to purple belt (nikkyu). A student is considered a serious student of NGA at that point, and has enough knowledge to actually start to get good. At purple belt, they also get the last 10 techniques in the core curriculum.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 15, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> As has been said, it is entirely dependent upon the art and school.
> The thing that most people that don't practice a martial art fail to understand, is that a "black belt" only means something *within the organization that granted said rank.* *A black belt in a Wado ryu karate organization means absolutely nothing in BJJ or kendo or Taekwondo.* It only means something within the Wado ryu organization that granted the belt. Heck it doesn't even mean anything to a different Wado ryu organization, unless they've got a reciprocal agreement in place saying that they'll recognize the other organization's ranks. (Just using Wado ryu as an example. I don't even know if there is more than one Wado ryu organization.  )
> 
> I hold various dan ranks in three different sword arts and four organizations. One had a very detailed progression where you were required to know and perform certain kata and techniques to progress through the ranks. Another had only six kata for rank testing. The same six kata were performed for a panel consisting of the head of the school and the main instructors from Japan and U.S. for every rank test. Your demeanor and performance determined whether they thought you were ready for the next rank.
> ...



*Bolded and underlined:*  I think you mean it a different way, but since 1st dan black belt meant a great sense of accomplishment to me, and I knew what I had put in to it, I respect the ranks of other organizations.  It a practitioner in another system has a higher dan than me, I pay that person respects.  I would have to be very sure a system was totally bogus not to show that respect.  Even so, I probably still would, simply to show lower students what I thought was proper protocol.

I realize this had been asked in a Karate forum, but others in different arts have commented.  So, in the Hapkido I studied,

1st dan was defense against many kinds of grabs (using strikes, breaks[grapples and throws], pressure points, punches, kicks, knives, and a taste of offense just before the black belt test. 

2nd degree was a lot of the same, but using different techniques and pressure points, also sword use and defense.  Also throw defense and ground defense techniques.

3rd degree was counters to white belt techniques, and a *lot* of short stick defenses and offense.

4th degree - I don't know as I didn't train that far.  I was told that it was mostly healing techniques, but I don't know.

And so of course I don't know what was above.  In his book, Kimm showed a lot more techniques being taught at higher levels.


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## Buka (Sep 15, 2016)

I'm not sure what a black belt means. You would think I'd know after all this time, but I really don't. Seems to me that the martial arts community in general doesn't really know what a black belt means, either, but that's just my opinion.

Ah, the mysteries of life. Good thing we've got lots of teachers to explain these things to us.


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## pgsmith (Sep 15, 2016)

Buka said:


> Ah, the mysteries of life. Good thing we've got lots of teachers to explain these things to us.


  I liked that phrase so much that I felt it needed repeating!   It is a true statement (in my opinion) for life in general. Our lives are filled with teachers (many of whom don't even know that's what they're doing!) that can explain a great deal if we make the effort to recognize what they're teaching us.


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## Jenna (Sep 15, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> I liked that phrase so much that I felt it needed repeating!   It is a true statement (in my opinion) for life in general. Our lives are filled with teachers (many of whom don't even know that's what they're doing!) that can explain a great deal if we make the effort to recognize what they're teaching us.


Agree.. and I would go even further and suggest we have the grace to have lessons put their selves slap bang in front of our paths as though to impede them almost all of the time yet we do not apprehend these as lessons or teachings at all  x


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 15, 2016)

In BJJ, black belt is that last rank which is officially based on proof of technical prowess. After that the degrees are typically* based on continued time in grade training. It's not automatic - you still have to be promoted by a higher ranked instructor based on his/her perception that you are still training/teaching/contributing to the art in a manner befitting a BJJ black belt. If you aren't actively training or aren't associated with a higher ranked instructor, then you probably won't get promoted further.

*(There are no universal rules in BJJ, so I'm sure there are instructors out there who do technical testing for the higher degrees of black belt, but they would be the exceptions.)

Most arts that use the belt ranking system consider a newly promoted black belt to be a "1st dan" or "1st degree black belt". In BJJ, "degrees" refers to the stripes on the belt, so a newly promoted black belt would be a "zero degree" BB. (That term isn't used, but "1st degree" doesn't apply until he/she gets the next promotion.)

The typical time in grade expectations for BB degrees are as follows:


3 years for degrees *1, 2 and 3*

5 years for degrees *4, 5 and 6*

7 years for degree *7* (black and red)

7 years for degree *8* (white and red)

10 years for degree *9* (red)

That makes the cumulative years for promotion 3,6,9,14,19,24,31,38,48. Based on that I should be receiving my 9th degree black belt in BJJ at some point after my 98th birthday. I plan on making it a big celebration. You're all invited.


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## Buka (Sep 15, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That makes the cumulative years for promotion 3,6,9,14,19,24,31,38,48. Based on that I should be receiving my 9th degree black belt in BJJ at some point after my 98th birthday. I plan on making it a big celebration. You're all invited.



I'll be there, bro. With bells on.


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## JR 137 (Sep 16, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In BJJ, black belt is that last rank which is officially based on proof of technical prowess. After that the degrees are typically* based on continued time in grade training. It's not automatic - you still have to be promoted by a higher ranked instructor based on his/her perception that you are still training/teaching/contributing to the art in a manner befitting a BJJ black belt. If you aren't actively training or aren't associated with a higher ranked instructor, then you probably won't get promoted further.
> 
> *(There are no universal rules in BJJ, so I'm sure there are instructors out there who do technical testing for the higher degrees of black belt, but they would be the exceptions.)
> 
> ...



Just bought my plane ticket.  Can you recommend any good hotels, or can I just crash on your couch?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Just bought my plane ticket.  Can you recommend any good hotels, or can I just crash on your couch?


Why the plane ticket? If we all take our time, everyone can respectively walk, swim, and meander there and make it in time. If anyone needs me, I'll be strolling along I-40. If I cover a few dozen miles a year, I'll make it, Tony.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 16, 2016)

I wouldn't want to miss it for the world. 

I have arranged for my casket to be shipped there for the event, and back. 

I no longer drink, but that isn't a problem, just pour some appropriate libation over the casket.


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## pgsmith (Sep 16, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Just bought my plane ticket.  Can you recommend any good hotels, or can I just crash on your couch?



  I don't think Tony's picture makes him look _quite_ that old, but I've been wrong before.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 16, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> I don't think Tony's picture makes him look _quite_ that old, but I've been wrong before.


That picture is probably over 10 years old by now. I really should take a new one.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 19, 2016)

Buka said:


> I'm not sure what a black belt means.


That depends. It depends on where you get a black belt and the standards that the instructor you get it under has. That's why I consider where and how you got the belt to be just as important, if not more important, than the belt itself.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 19, 2016)

So pgsmith and JR 137 considering your posts you both seem to regard the first degree black belt as just the beginning into the world of martial arts. Lots of dojos and lots of martial artists would agree with you. JR 137 you said yourself that a black belt is by no means considered an expert, at least not in your dojo, and pgsmith you said that a first degree black belt is simply seen as a "real" student, somebody who understands the basics. Another words, a serious beginner. As I said such a view of the black belt is not uncommon in the world of martial arts and it is for that reason why I don't see the point of making the black belt test proportionally much harder than the brown belt test. Naturally it should be harder since the black belt is a more advanced belt but for it to be proportionally that much harder and for it to take proportionally much longer to go from brown to black than to go up any of the earlier belts seems a bit unbalanced to me. A big jump would be going from white directly to black and its for that reason why you don't go from white directly to black you go through all the colored belts. From what I know in the old days the only belts they had were white and black, that was when they first started to use belts as a ranking system and at the time they didn't come up with the rainbow of all the different colored belts in between. If going from brown to black is such a big jump than it stands to reason that perhaps there should be belts in between brown and black.

From what I know about BJJ it typically takes 2 years to get from brown to black, that is the average. As it is though it also typically takes 2 years to get from purple to brown, 2 years to get from blue to purple, and 2 years to get from white to blue. It doesn't take one year to get from purple to brown and then 5 years to get from brown to black so I see the BJJ system as being more balanced.


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## Zephyor (Sep 20, 2016)

is the 6th dan the max you can attain?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> That depends. It depends on where you get a black belt and the standards that the instructor you get it under has. That's why I consider where and how you got the belt to be just as important, if not more important, than the belt itself.


I think this is the overriding response. If I know your school's policies and practices, then your black belt tells me something. If I don't, then it might as well be chartreuse for all it tells me.

(I'm going to introduce a chartreuse belt, and put heavy requirements on getting the next one. The hideous color should motivate students to work hard to get out of it. Maybe I'll charge a testing fee for the next belt up.)


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2016)

Zephyor said:


> is the 6th dan the max you can attain?


Who was this addressed to?


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## JR 137 (Sep 20, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I think this is the overriding response. If I know your school's policies and practices, then your black belt tells me something. If I don't, then it might as well be chartreuse for all it tells me.
> 
> (I'm going to introduce a chartreuse belt, and put heavy requirements on getting the next one. The hideous color should motivate students to work hard to get out of it. Maybe I'll charge a testing fee for the next belt up.)



Be careful.  My almost 6 year old daughter is a blue belt.  Blue's her favorite color.  And the belt matches the kanji on the gi.  She doesn't want the next belt (yellow), or the one after that (green) or anything else.  Not even black.  She said the only other color she wants is red.  Our Kaicho is the only one in the organization who wears a solid red belt.

I guess she'll have to wait about 60 years or so for that one.  I can't imagine what her blue belt will look like after 60 years of consistent training.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Be careful.  My almost 6 year old daughter is a blue belt.  Blue's her favorite color.  And the belt matches the kanji on the gi.  She doesn't want the next belt (yellow), or the one after that (green) or anything else.  Not even black.  She said the only other color she wants is red.  Our Kaicho is the only one in the organization who wears a solid red belt.
> 
> I guess she'll have to wait about 60 years or so for that one.  I can't imagine what her blue belt will look like after 60 years of consistent training.



You know, I could see that. I really liked my blue belt (one of my favorite colors, too). It was much nicer than the green and purple (next two colors), and brown is just drab (after purple). I'd have been happy to go from blue to black.


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## Buka (Sep 20, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I think this is the overriding response. If I know your school's policies and practices, then your black belt tells me something. If I don't, then it might as well be chartreuse for all it tells me.
> 
> (I'm going to introduce a chartreuse belt, and put heavy requirements on getting the next one. The hideous color should motivate students to work hard to get out of it. Maybe I'll charge a testing fee for the next belt up.)


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 20, 2016)

When I get around to creating my own system and promoting myself to Supreme Grandmaster, I'm going to commission myself a custom made Technicolor Dream Belt. It will have all the colors of the rainbow _and_ it will glow in the dark.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> When I get around to creating my own system and promoting myself to Supreme Grandmaster, I'm going to commission myself a custom made Technicolor Dream Belt. It will have all the colors of the rainbow _and_ it will glow in the dark.


Tony and the Amazing Technicolor Dreambelt


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 21, 2016)

Zephyor said:


> is the 6th dan the max you can attain?


Depends on the system. In many systems I've seen 10th dan is the highest.


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## pgsmith (Sep 21, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> When I get around to creating my own system and promoting myself to Supreme Grandmaster, I'm going to commission myself a custom made Technicolor Dream Belt. It will have all the colors of the rainbow _and_ it will glow in the dark.



  Well, that does away with any of your ninja training then eh? Hard to be invisible when your belt glows.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 21, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Well, that does away with any of your ninja training then eh? Hard to be invisible when your belt glows.


My belt will glow in the dark so brightly that it will destroy the night vision of any attacker, allowing me to defeat them while they are temporarily blinded. It's a variant of the metsubishi tactics used by the ninja of yore.


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## JR 137 (Sep 22, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> My belt will glow in the dark so brightly that it will destroy the night vision of any attacker, allowing me to defeat them while they are temporarily blinded. It's a variant of the metsubishi tactics used by the ninja of yore.



And you can turn it on and off with your mind.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 23, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Depends on the system. In many systems I've seen 10th dan is the highest.


I have seen a Ninja dude with an 18th Dan in a documentary once.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 27, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> I have seen a Ninja dude with an 18th Dan in a documentary once.



Interesting. I didn't think Ninjutsu even had ranks, although some of the American schools that advertise Ninjutsu have incorporated ranks into the system.


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## Hyoho (Sep 27, 2016)

In Japan a Shodan or black belt rank means you are qualified beginner. Part of the colored belt system invented by the founder of Judo, Kano Jigoro. Other styles of M.A. particularly in the West even those that are not even related to Japanese Budo have taken this and changed it to mean something else. As mentioned it just depends on what you do. Dan grades (black belts) are association related.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2016)

E


Hyoho said:


> In Japan a Shodan or black belt rank means you are qualified beginner. Part of the colored belt system invented by the founder of Judo, Kano Jigoro. Other styles of M.A. particularly in the West even those that are not even related to Japanese Budo have taken this and changed it to mean something else. As mentioned it just depends on what you do. Dan grades (black belts) are association related.


Even in Japan, it varies a bit by system (or has varied, anyway). Shodan was always the first advanced rank in NGA, even in Hokkaido.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 30, 2016)

Hyoho said:


> In Japan a Shodan or black belt rank means you are qualified beginner. Part of the colored belt system invented by the founder of Judo, Kano Jigoro. Other styles of M.A. particularly in the West even those that are not even related to Japanese Budo have taken this and changed it to mean something else. As mentioned it just depends on what you do. Dan grades (black belts) are association related.



From what I know yes, in Japan it means you're a serious beginner. And thats why I don't see why a school would make it a big jump to go from brown to black as discussed earlier in this thread. If making Shodan is no big deal than I don't see why schools would make it a big deal. 

Perhaps in the USA its the almost mythical and magical status that has been associated with the black belt why its often a big jump to get from brown to black in American schools. But as you said Shodan means qualified beginner, at least in Japan it does. So for that reason I wouldn't expect it to be a big jump in terms of time and difficulty to get from brown to black if you're training in Japan under a Japanese instructor, or if you're training in the USA and your instructor is a Japanese immigrant.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 30, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> From what I know yes, in Japan it means you're a serious beginner. And thats why I don't see why a school would make it a big jump to go from brown to black as discussed earlier in this thread. If making Shodan is no big deal than I don't see why schools would make it a big deal.



Most of us are not in Japan.
Just in case you didn't know.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 30, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Most of us are not in Japan.
> Just in case you didn't know.



Perhaps not but that's not to say that there aren't instructors from Japan who move to the USA and set up schools in the USA. Lots of people teaching in the USA are from Japan including my first instructor.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 30, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Perhaps not but that's not to say that there aren't instructors from Japan who move to the USA and set up schools in the USA. Lots of people teaching in the USA are from Japan including my first instructor.



Who then decided what shodan would mean within their system. Just as they do in every system. I'd be willing to bet that the meaning of shodan varies as widely among schools/systems in Japan as it does schools/systems in the USA.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 1, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> From what I know yes, in Japan it means you're a serious beginner. And thats why I don't see why a school would make it a big jump to go from brown to black as discussed earlier in this thread. If making Shodan is no big deal than I don't see why schools would make it a big deal.
> 
> Perhaps in the USA its the almost mythical and magical status that has been associated with the black belt why its often a big jump to get from brown to black in American schools. But as you said Shodan means qualified beginner, at least in Japan it does. So for that reason I wouldn't expect it to be a big jump in terms of time and difficulty to get from brown to black if you're training in Japan under a Japanese instructor, or if you're training in the USA and your instructor is a Japanese immigrant.



Blanket statements will rarely be as accurate as they sound.

As I said in another post, there has always been a significant difference between brown and black in NGA, even dating back to the original dojo in Hokkaido. Testing has always been significantly more rigorous, expectation has always been a lot higher, and there has always been some ceremony around that particular promotion (moreso, even, than other dan ranks).


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 1, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Who then decided what shodan would mean within their system. Just as they do in every system. I'd be willing to bet that the meaning of shodan varies as widely among schools/systems in Japan as it does schools/systems in the USA.


I'd also question why it even matters what it means in Japan, unless we're talking about within an association, making a comparison between countries. Japan has a different culture, so unless we are trying to maintain consistency within a particular association, there's no reason why we need the belts systems to be the same between countries. We should be focused on doing what works best for the students and the school, and that doesn't always come from Japan just because the art did.


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## Hyoho (Oct 1, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Most of us are not in Japan.
> Just in case you didn't know.


Yes I know but it's still a Japanese system of denoting what level you have reached that has been bastardized by other countries and forms of M.A. Why make it something it's not? Rokudan usually denotes a national level. Sandan is high school graduation level.

When I taught M.A in the West as adult education the college required some sort of qualification. But that was provided by coach award showing I could teach not dan-i (having dan)

Many foreigners go to Japan short term and come away with a 'take away grade' but living there is a different story.

Work hard enough it's not so difficult taking grades living in Japan either if you practice every day. I gave up with an accumulated  27 shodan shinsa by the time I was 42 to devote myself to Koryu.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 1, 2016)

Hyoho said:


> Yes I know but it's still a Japanese system of denoting what level you have reached that has been bastardized by other countries and forms of M.A. Why make it something it's not? Rokudan usually denotes a national level. Sandan is high school graduation level.
> 
> When I taught M.A in the West as adult education the college required some sort of qualification. But that was provided by coach award showing I could teach not dan-i (having dan)
> 
> ...


By "bastardized" you mean "used a way I don't like". In every case, it only means what a group agrees it means.


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## Hyoho (Oct 1, 2016)

Probably means the most to those who have the highest and set the new rules. But in actual fact its not about that at all. It's a mark of progression with added responsibility.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Blanket statements will rarely be as accurate as they sound.
> 
> As I said in another post, there has always been a significant difference between brown and black in NGA, even dating back to the original dojo in Hokkaido. Testing has always been significantly more rigorous, expectation has always been a lot higher, and there has always been some ceremony around that particular promotion (moreso, even, than other dan ranks).



If you mean that "serious beginner" is a blanket statement than I might see where you're coming from.

So with the kind of difference that you describe between brown and black in NGA than maybe there should be belts in between brown and black. It doesn't really make sense to have going from brown to black to be like going from white directly to black. That's an exaggeration of course.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I'd also question why it even matters what it means in Japan, unless we're talking about within an association, making a comparison between countries. Japan has a different culture, so unless we are trying to maintain consistency within a particular association, there's no reason why we need the belts systems to be the same between countries. We should be focused on doing what works best for the students and the school, and that doesn't always come from Japan just because the art did.



Well because as I mentioned before there are instructors from Japan who move and set up schools in the USA. Being from Japan I would think they would do things the way they're done in the culture that they're originally from and that they grew up in.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> If you mean that "serious beginner" is a blanket statement than I might see where you're coming from.
> 
> So with the kind of difference that you describe between brown and black in NGA than maybe there should be belts in between brown and black. It doesn't really make sense to have going from brown to black to be like going from white directly to black. That's an exaggeration of course.



We've never had a need for any other ranks in there. It fits the progression. By brown belt, students have received the entire core curriculum (only a few bits held back for yudansha to learn) and met the minimum standards for defensive use, so the path from brown to black is about improving ability and learning to teach. It would be safe to compare our ranks to what you're referring to by aligning mainline NGA's purple with the shodan you're thinking of, then keeping each step of promotion aligned (brown = nidan, shodan = sandan, teaching certificate). It's really not such a big jump, since there's no new curriculum introduced in that interim - just a lot of new responsibility accepted. As long as we all know what our own ranks mean, there's no confusion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well because as I mentioned before there are instructors from Japan who move and set up schools in the USA. Being from Japan I would think they would do things the way they're done in the culture that they're originally from and that they grew up in.


That's one approach they could take, and most of us who open a school do something similar: we do what we're used to. Some, however, will have decided to make an adjustment they think better fits the culture they've moved to. I don't see anything wrong with either approach - just different decisions.


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## Hyoho (Oct 2, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Perhaps in the USA its the almost mythical and magical status that has been associated with the black belt why its often a big jump to get from brown to black in American schools. But as you said Shodan means qualified beginner, at least in Japan it does. So for that reason I wouldn't expect it to be a big jump in terms of time and difficulty to get from brown to black if you're training in Japan under a Japanese instructor, or if you're training in the USA and your instructor is a Japanese immigrant.



Thing is most Budo in Japan simply cover costs. The Nippon Budokan charter specifies that that no money should be made from it. Many groups are directly members or affiliated as its linked to Monbusho (Japan Education). That in turn gives them facilities to train in. People who teach Budo in education are usually members of a Phys/Ed Faculty and are professional educators.

So bearing this in mind Japanese who go to other countries to teach are doing it as a business. All well and good but I knew one who returned to Japan to be treated very badly by his peers. Speaking from experience I see no problems with shugyo (going to Japan to do intensive training for months or a year) and return with a higher rank. Ranks being awarded to promote a specific group in the West should be gone. The days of having a double standard with Japan are over. Plenty of good Westerners out there teaching some good Budo. I was in the rank system for years but left it to train in 
'old school' that had no rank as everyday training was more important. 

I do have to say that even in Japan.....when you reach or try for a very high ranks is not just based on ability but also a "Get to know you element with committee seniors in that particular Budo. In that I fail as I really don't want socializing to be connected to rank.

Above all we pass people on what they 'can' do. Not what the cant do.


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## PhotonGuy (Nov 4, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> We've never had a need for any other ranks in there. It fits the progression. By brown belt, students have received the entire core curriculum (only a few bits held back for yudansha to learn) and met the minimum standards for defensive use, so the path from brown to black is about improving ability and learning to teach. It would be safe to compare our ranks to what you're referring to by aligning mainline NGA's purple with the shodan you're thinking of, then keeping each step of promotion aligned (brown = nidan, shodan = sandan, teaching certificate). It's really not such a big jump, since there's no new curriculum introduced in that interim - just a lot of new responsibility accepted. As long as we all know what our own ranks mean, there's no confusion.





gpseymour said:


> That's one approach they could take, and most of us who open a school do something similar: we do what we're used to. Some, however, will have decided to make an adjustment they think better fits the culture they've moved to. I don't see anything wrong with either approach - just different decisions.



You do have a point there. When somebody moves to a different culture they adjust to that culture and this would also apply to Japanese instructors who move to the USA. Your system obviously works for your school. The way you describe it it sounds like up through brown belt is all about learning the material and then to go from brown to black is about perfecting what you've learned. You also mentioned that when you go from brown to black you learn how to teach. In my primary dojo you start doing some assistant teaching when you're a brown belt. 

Anyway, in academics its 70-79 is a C, 80-89 is a B and 90 and above is an A. A ten point difference between each grade. Now, lets say that you had to get a 98 or higher to get an A and that 80-97 is a B. That sounds a bit unbalanced to me and they're really making a big deal about giving the A grade to students. That sounds similar to if dojo makes it a big jump to get from brown to black and for it to be proportionally much harder and to take proportionally much longer than to go up any of the earlier belts.


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## PhotonGuy (Nov 4, 2016)

Hyoho said:


> Thing is most Budo in Japan simply cover costs. The Nippon Budokan charter specifies that that no money should be made from it. Many groups are directly members or affiliated as its linked to Monbusho (Japan Education). That in turn gives them facilities to train in. People who teach Budo in education are usually members of a Phys/Ed Faculty and are professional educators.
> 
> So bearing this in mind Japanese who go to other countries to teach are doing it as a business. All well and good but I knew one who returned to Japan to be treated very badly by his peers. Speaking from experience I see no problems with shugyo (going to Japan to do intensive training for months or a year) and return with a higher rank. Ranks being awarded to promote a specific group in the West should be gone. The days of having a double standard with Japan are over. Plenty of good Westerners out there teaching some good Budo. I was in the rank system for years but left it to train in
> 'old school' that had no rank as everyday training was more important.


Interesting that in Japan they don't teach martial arts as a business so much. From what I know about the Japanese they are big into business and profit, just look at their role in the car industry for instance. From what I heard about shugyo its really hard, intense training that you don't do on a regular basis but the objective is to push yourself as never before and reach new levels physically and mentally. If I do go to Japan or anywhere else to do shugyo I would be doing it not for the goal of getting a higher rank but for the goal of reaching new levels in body and mind. And yes westerners can be just as good as easterners and they can be excellent instructors.



Hyoho said:


> I do have to say that even in Japan.....when you reach or try for a very high ranks is not just based on ability but also a "Get to know you element with committee seniors in that particular Budo. In that I fail as I really don't want socializing to be connected to rank.


From what I know yes, reaching the very high ranks is dependent on stuff other than skill and ability and some of that is getting to know and being accepted by other members of your martial arts community. Supposedly all ranks after 5th degree are not earned from instructors through demonstration of skill in the martial arts but are rather given to you by your peers as a result of how much you contribute to the art and so forth.



Hyoho said:


> Above all we pass people on what they 'can' do. Not what the cant do.


Well good. I wouldn't want to train in a school that does it otherwise. And that's why I would not be satisfied with buying a belt of whatever color and designs I choose, as some people have suggested.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> You do have a point there. When somebody moves to a different culture they adjust to that culture and this would also apply to Japanese instructors who move to the USA. Your system obviously works for your school. The way you describe it it sounds like up through brown belt is all about learning the material and then to go from brown to black is about perfecting what you've learned. You also mentioned that when you go from brown to black you learn how to teach. In my primary dojo you start doing some assistant teaching when you're a brown belt.
> 
> Anyway, in academics its 70-79 is a C, 80-89 is a B and 90 and above is an A. A ten point difference between each grade. Now, lets say that you had to get a 98 or higher to get an A and that 80-97 is a B. That sounds a bit unbalanced to me and they're really making a big deal about giving the A grade to students. That sounds similar to if dojo makes it a big jump to get from brown to black and for it to be proportionally much harder and to take proportionally much longer than to go up any of the earlier belts.


The difference is that an academic A is not a progression after a B. It's a better score. To me, it's more like the difference between graduation from elementary school and middle school (no big deal) versus high school (big deal at the time), college (actually kinda big deal), and university (significantly bigger deal, but rarely as celebrated).


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## Hyoho (Nov 5, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Interesting that in Japan they don't teach martial arts as a business so much. From what I know about the Japanese they are big into business and profit, just look at their role in the car industry for instance. From what I heard about shugyo its really hard, intense training that you don't do on a regular basis but the objective is to push yourself as never before and reach new levels physically and mentally. If I do go to Japan or anywhere else to do shugyo I would be doing it not for the goal of getting a higher rank but for the goal of reaching new levels in body and mind. And yes westerners can be just as good as easterners and they can be excellent instructors.
> 
> 
> From what I know yes, reaching the very high ranks is dependent on stuff other than skill and ability and some of that is getting to know and being accepted by other members of your martial arts community. Supposedly all ranks after 5th degree are not earned from instructors through demonstration of skill in the martial arts but are rather given to you by your peers as a result of how much you contribute to the art and so forth.
> ...



There are jobs in Japan that are no go unless you have minimum Sandan level. Even if not Dan grades in anything are highly respected when being interviewed for a position. 

Godan  (5th) plus are far from given. You need the skill as well as peers approval. The gap between nanandan and hachidan is so high only the best with natural fighting abilty will get there.

When I took my first national grade (Rokudan) there were nearly 3000 entrants. The percentage that will pass has already been decided even if your are good enough. Some friends of mine that had practiced around 30 years had tried around ten times. So much as move wrong after the initial etiquette and it's a yellow flag (seen enough thanks try again next year).

The way I look at it you can be doing Budo or whatever you like but it's the Japanese method of repetition, try try and try again to do better. the aim for perfection that has carried on from things like Budo into industry. Every year my students graduated, even if they never found the time to practice again? I just knew in my heart that they would succeed in something with the values they had been taught.


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## PhotonGuy (Nov 8, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> The difference is that an academic A is not a progression after a B. It's a better score. To me, it's more like the difference between graduation from elementary school and middle school (no big deal) versus high school (big deal at the time), college (actually kinda big deal), and university (significantly bigger deal, but rarely as celebrated).


OK than how about this. Lets say you're taking history classes in high school or college. You start with History I. After that in the next year or next semester you move on to History II and then History III and finally History IV, each year or semester moving up one. Now, History IV isn't necessarily harder than History III, II or I its simply sequential. Nevertheless each history class is a progression from the previous class.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 8, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> OK than how about this. Lets say you're taking history classes in high school or college. You start with History I. After that in the next year or next semester you move on to History II and then History III and finally History IV, each year or semester moving up one. Now, History IV isn't necessarily harder than History III, II or I its simply sequential. Nevertheless each history class is a progression from the previous class.


That's all accurate, but not necessarily analogous to the way rank progression works in many arts.


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## Human Makiwara (Nov 11, 2016)

The difference is proficiency in your art. You may learn a new kata for each new Dan rank from 1-3 (depending on your school/style) but your overall understanding of the material you are studying is greater. 

We had paper writing, teaching and tournament requirements at the end of the kyu ranks and into shodan. Being able to legitimately relay what you have learned to another student is a lot harder than it seems. Competing in tournament and performing in public demonstrations are also more difficult than just showing up for class. 

Every school is different. Every teacher too. The old saying you get out of it what you put in holds very true here.


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## PhotonGuy (Nov 15, 2016)

Buka said:


> True, it does. But that's when the belt doesn't really matter any more. In a rank system, we all want to get that black one....and, then, you know.



And then you just keep on training to keep developing skill and ability, at least that's what I do. As it is, after you make black belt it doesn't get easier it gets harder. After you get a black belt you start to train even harder, at least that's my experience.


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## Hanshi (Nov 27, 2016)

Interesting post, pgsmith.  My karate rank differs between two organizations I belong to although both recognize my highest.  In my youth I competed some and later put on tournaments myself.  I also was active in officiating within other's tourneys and took students to tournaments around the state.  While active, it was never required to compete or be involved in tournaments.  Just me, but I don't like the idea of tourney participation being required for rank.  It_ is _a fun and a learning experience but adds little to actual fighting ability, which has always been first in my career.  The real stuff one does on the street is mostly banned in tournaments.  I was never especially good at point sparring but when it came to boxing, where I could actually "hit" my opponent, I did much better.  Other's mileage may vary.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 27, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> what is the difference between the first/second and third dan in black belts?
> And when i mean difference i mean difference in what you learn when you go up in belts.



Let me explain it for you.  These guys are all crazy, don't listen to them.

1st Dan - knows nothing but how to find the changing room.  But he knows he knows nothing.  The best black belt.
2nd Dan - knows nothing but thinks he knows something.  Gets beat up in class a lot by brown belts.
3rd Dan - Entitled to be addressed as 'sensei'.  Gains 50 pounds, buys a new gi.
4th Dan - Opens dojo, fails, goes back to original dojo.  Buys sports car.
5th Dan - Opens dojo, succeeds. Takes students to tournaments, ignores rules against coaching from sidelines.  Thinks he can still spar.  He cannot.
6th Dan - Goes to tournaments and stands around talking with other high Dan ranks.  Has run belt sander over black belt so that it's so frayed it is barely holding together.
7th Dan - Might actually know something, but isn't talking.  Gets red-and-white panel belt, which curiously is still called a black belt.  Starts to add titles like Shihan, Doshi, Big Kahuna, Mostacholli, etc. to actual Dan rank.
8th Dan - Writes a bad book full of bad advice that only students buy and no one reads.  Affects a slight Asian accent even if not Asian.
9th Dan - Has a string of dojos, others teach for him.  Goes to Hall of Fame banquets that he pays to attend.  Trophy wife.
10th Dan - Dies.  People talk nice about him.


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## Hyoho (Nov 27, 2016)

Here's my list. 
1st Dan - Practice
2nd Dan - Practice and stand there as a practice dummy for kids. (Before you learn to hit people you need to be hit and lose a lot)
3rd Dan - Practice and manage to occasionally hit my teacher.
4th Dan - Travel all over the place extra teaching school, uni.  There are not enough older sensei to go round as WWll banned Budo for 7/8 years.
5th Dan - Now its full time practices/teaching morning, evening, all weekend.
6th Dan - More of the same but now I have judge as well and do association work as its national level. My own practice? Join a teachers club, police practice. Take part in  teachers competition.
7th Dan - More of the same. damn, in a population of 2 million there are only 5 other guys my age and rank. Now I have to participate in "everything".

In conclusion and 27 dan grades later in various arts I gave up at 42 to concentrate on Kobudo where there are "no" ranks. I just wanted to practice. Still teaching and doing international seminars but through over use and over training my knees are giving up on me! For some its a hobby. For me it's industrial injury sustained from a job.


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## Tames D (Nov 27, 2016)

Here's my list.
1st Dan -$500
2nd Dan - $1,000
3rd Dan - $2,000
4th Dan - $4,000
5th Dan - $8,500
6th Dan - $10,000
7th Dan - $15,000

Cash, Check, Credit Card


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## Buka (Nov 28, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Let me explain it for you.  These guys are all crazy, don't listen to them.
> 
> 1st Dan - knows nothing but how to find the changing room.  But he knows he knows nothing.  The best black belt.
> 2nd Dan - knows nothing but thinks he knows something.  Gets beat up in class a lot by brown belts.
> ...



Spit Rolling Rock all over my laptop.


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## Buka (Nov 28, 2016)

Having been down this road more than a bit, all I can tell you is this - those guys who were once white belts, and are now wearing belts with stripes, bells and whistles, are the same guys. They just fight better. Or not.


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## JR 137 (Nov 28, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Here's my list.
> 1st Dan -$500
> 2nd Dan - $1,000
> 3rd Dan - $2,000
> ...



10th dan - Priceless*

* Used to be you were already dead when promoted to 10th dan


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 28, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> 10th dan - Priceless*
> 
> * Used to be you were already dead when promoted to 10th dan



I forgot to mention that once a 10th Dan passes, lots of people will suddenly pop up and claim to have trained with him and/or to have been promoted by him.  Amazing how many students a dead 10th Dan had.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 28, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I forgot to mention that once a 10th Dan passes, lots of people will suddenly pop up and claim to have trained with him and/or to have been promoted by him.  Amazing how many students a dead 10th Dan had.


I think I'll proclaim myself a dead 10th dan. Maybe I'll pick up some new students that way. Unfortunately, many of them will probably not be near enough to actually come to class...


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 4, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Let me explain it for you.  These guys are all crazy, don't listen to them.
> 
> 1st Dan - knows nothing but how to find the changing room.  But he knows he knows nothing.  The best black belt.
> 2nd Dan - knows nothing but thinks he knows something.  Gets beat up in class a lot by brown belts.
> ...



So, if I were to go by your list, I would want to get to 1st Dan and stop there.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 4, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Here's my list.
> 1st Dan -$500
> 2nd Dan - $1,000
> 3rd Dan - $2,000
> ...



If that's how you want to do it than I would recommend just buying whatever belt(s) you want at stores or on the internet and it will be much less pricey. I would not recommend, however, to wear any belt you buy at a school where you didn't earn it or at a school that teaches a system that you did not earn the belt in. If you do you could end up like that guy who really embarrassed himself in front of an entire BJJ class when the instructor called him out for not having earned the black belt he was wearing.


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## Tames D (Dec 4, 2016)

*Tames D Said:*
Here's my list.
1st Dan -$500
2nd Dan - $1,000
3rd Dan - $2,000
4th Dan - $4,000
5th Dan - $8,500
6th Dan - $10,000
7th Dan - $15,000

Cash, Check, Credit Card



PhotonGuy said:


> If that's how you want to do it than I would recommend just buying whatever belt(s) you want at stores or on the internet and it will be much less pricey. I would not recommend, however, to wear any belt you buy at a school where you didn't earn it or at a school that teaches a system that you did not earn the belt in. If you do you could end up like that guy who really embarrassed himself in front of an entire BJJ class when the instructor called him out for not having earned the black belt he was wearing.


I have a feeling you didn't understand my post...


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