# Fleecing black belts



## Rumy73 (Jul 29, 2013)

I would like your input on a practice common in Dc, Md, NoVa. Tkd schools and hapkido schools have created gup ranks in between Dan levels. These are KKW certification issuing schools. While the KKW has no such requirement, in my experience, masters are not exactly forthcoming that the practice is a creation of the school. It allows the school the generate testing fees every month or two on top of the contractual monthly fee.  The cost for black belts increases with each Dan level. In this area first Dan is about $450-$600.  Although I could easily be a third Dan by now under KKW standards, I refuse to pay these fees, which I find outrageous. What do these "dan gup tests" consist of? Schools teach various weapons forms (copying Chinese and Japanese staff katas, etc.). While nice to learn, it is not KKW TKD. Students should be given the option. However, that is not the case and Dan tests are essential held hostage. Taekwon dinero.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jul 29, 2013)

I've seen gup tests at every 6 months for black belts.  I think the logic is to keep students focused on coming to class and learning. The gup exams were similar to colour belt test (i.e., no big fanfare).  I agree on your comment on black belt costs of $450-600: that's the amount I have seen for 1st dan/poom.  In fact, one instructor said they charge $600 like all the Korean masters, so it sounded like the Korean masters got together and agreed on pricing.


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## jks9199 (Jul 29, 2013)

I haven't examined the practices of the schools around here closely, but I'm not surprised to hear it.  Lots of the schools are about money, and if they had to meet the requirements of the day care center that they are thinly disguising, they'd go out of business.  I could see progress checks or something like that, especially for kid black belts.  But any fees involved should be minimal, and really, I don't see charging anything for it.  

But... isn't "dan gup" kind of an oxymoron?


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## Rumy73 (Jul 29, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> But... isn't "dan gup" kind of an oxymoron?


 yes, it is. When one master told me about it. i saw the money flash in his eyes and nearly laughed.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 29, 2013)

welll.......ok......hmmmm...i got nothing.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 29, 2013)

I think that like many things the issue is "Buyer Beware".     My students get a "Handbook" the very first day.  Test fees thru 5th Dan are listed. There is a note to the effect that like most things, fees are subject to change.  Mostly it has to with with the org. which issues Dan certs raising fees over time.  I know some foind my one year probation for First Dans (No fees involved) objectionable, but it is disclosed from day one. 

I am aware of an ITF Pioneer who did this (long deceased and long gone from the ITF before that).  The rationale was to keep people from coasting through the time in grade and not really being up to par when their eligibility date arrived. 

I will say that my basic feeling is you should be told / informed about all relevant charges up front. Some have BB clubs , fundraisers and other mandatory items that come as a "Surprise' along the way agfter much time, effort and $ is invested.  That surprise borders on fraud.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jul 29, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> Test fees thru 5th Dan are listed.


That's pretty uncommon.  Every school I have attended talks about the monthly fees, but never about higher belt test fees.  Most may say something like "belt fees start at $30 for the yellow belt test" but no one ever says "and 1st degree black belt is $600".  No one new would sign up!


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## Rumy73 (Jul 29, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> I think that like many things the issue is "Buyer Beware".     My students get a "Handbook" the very first day.  Test fees thru 5th Dan are listed. There is a note to the effect that like most things, fees are subject to change.  Mostly it has to with with the org. which issues Dan certs raising fees over time.  I know some foind my one year probation for First Dans (No fees involved) objectionable, but it is disclosed from day one.
> 
> I am aware of an ITF Pioneer who did this (long deceased and long gone from the ITF before that).  The rationale was to keep people from coasting through the time in grade and not really being up to par when their eligibility date arrived.
> 
> I will say that my basic feeling is you should be told / informed about all relevant charges up front. Some have BB clubs , fundraisers and other mandatory items that come as a "Surprise' along the way agfter much time, effort and $ is invested.  That surprise borders on fraud.



OK, I get buyer beware, but it is sad contradiction when martial arts are supposed to represent good ethics yet these kinds of shady business practices are rampant in my area. In defense of people new to MA, they would not even know what questions to ask. In terms of experienced people, I asked lots of questions but did not know to look for land mines everywhere.


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## rlobrecht (Jul 29, 2013)

The school I left did this.  They called the tests recertifications, and then you were labeled x Day y level.  The recertification tests are the same $50 a gup test is, and are held the same way as a gup tests. There are 4 recertification tests between Dan tests (at least 1st - 3rd.)  The school is traditional, so not KKW, and no master org to listen to.  Traditionally 2nd Dan and 3rd Dan each have 3 new patterns, so each recertification has you test  one of those.  The fourth has you test with a weapons pattern.

Dan tests also increase by $50 a test, starting at $350 for 1st Dan.

This wasn't advertised for new members, but by the time you're attending the advanced color belt class, you've figured it out.

Rick


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 29, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> I would like your input on a practice common in Dc, Md, NoVa. Tkd schools and hapkido schools have created gup ranks in between Dan levels. These are KKW certification issuing schools. While the KKW has no such requirement, in my experience, masters are not exactly forthcoming that the practice is a creation of the school. It allows the school the generate testing fees every month or two on top of the contractual monthly fee.  The cost for black belts increases with each Dan level. In this area first Dan is about $450-$600.  Although I could easily be a third Dan by now under KKW standards, I refuse to pay these fees, which I find outrageous. What do these "dan gup tests" consist of? Schools teach various weapons forms (copying Chinese and Japanese staff katas, etc.). While nice to learn, it is not KKW TKD. Students should be given the option. However, that is not the case and Dan tests are essential held hostage. Taekwon dinero.


I trained in the Maryland area at a school that adopted this practice long after I started.  The tests were for various miscelaneous weapon forms.  I left within two years, but this was not the reason.  

Personally, I think that after you've collected five hundred dollars for a testing fee, you shouldn't be collecting more fees for tests that don't even involve a belt (thus no product to order).  If the school wishes to arrange their dan grade curriculum in this way, that is really a matter of preference.  The quality of the material is another matter.  If it is a good, worthwhile program that is one thing.  But if it is just grafted on filler designed to keep people paying without teaching anything of value, then I'd say the student is at a point where they've outgrown the school.

As for myself, I teach in Maryland.  I don't do this.  I'm independent, so I don't charge for tests at all, as I have no organization to pay into.


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## WaterGal (Jul 29, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I've seen gup tests at every 6 months for black belts.  I think the logic is to keep students focused on coming to class and learning.



Yeah, I think this can be good reason to have small tests for students between dan/poom tests.  I think it can be helpful (and not just in martial arts, but most anything) to have small, achievable short-term goals to focus on.  If you've only got one huge deadline that's far off, it can be easy to procrastinate, or to get intimidated and think you can't do it.

So I don't think that "geup" tests for dan holders are _necessarily _about ripping students off.  Though it seems a little iffy if they're 1) not upfront about it and 2) are charging as much for a test where you get a new belt as a test where you don't.

I also think it's the school owner's perogative if they want to teach  additional material beyond what the KKW strictly requires.  Frankly,  doing one form for 2 years can get a little boring, and I think it's great  that some teachers are throwing in extra things like weapons techniques  or whatever to keep it interesting for students.


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## RTKDCMB (Jul 29, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I think the logic is to keep students focused on coming to class and learning.



Usually when one gets to black belt they should be fairly self sufficient when it comes to their own development


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## Carol (Jul 29, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Usually when one gets to black belt they should be fairly self sufficient when it comes to their own development



That's what I thought too. Granted, I have never been a black belt, and may never be one.  However, I thought one of the main reasons why earning BB was like being a white belt all over again is because the black belt this to be self-sufficient and manage their own path.  Is my perception way off here?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Rumy73 (Jul 29, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, I think this can be good reason to have small tests for students between dan/poom tests.  I think it can be helpful (and not just in martial arts, but most anything) to have small, achievable short-term goals to focus on.  If you've only got one huge deadline that's far off, it can be easy to procrastinate, or to get intimidated and think you can't do it.
> 
> So I don't think that "geup" tests for dan holders are _necessarily _about ripping students off.  Though it seems a little iffy if they're 1) not upfront about it and 2) are charging as much for a test where you get a new belt as a test where you don't.
> 
> I also think it's the school owner's perogative if they want to teach  additional material beyond what the KKW strictly requires.  Frankly,  doing one form for 2 years can get a little boring, and I think it's great  that some teachers are throwing in extra things like weapons techniques  or whatever to keep it interesting for students.



Let me tell you some dollar amounts. Bb gup test fees are $60 a pop. Bb are expected to test 10 times a year. Then add the average monthly fee of $125-$150. Finally, when Bb is ready to do a dan test, that will be about $600 or more. Taekwon Dinero.


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## chrispillertkd (Jul 29, 2013)

I first saw this kind of thing back in the early 1990s. The school in question requited an additional 4 tests between each dan level (they termed them "credits" instead of dan gups). I don't recall the testing fee for these tests but it was on top of charges that were very highly marked up already ($300 for a KKW first dan). 

By the time one reaches first dan they should be able to set a long term goal. That is, while testing from 10th to 9th gup might be a matter of waiting two or three months while learning material and practicing it testing from first to second dan _usually_ involves a waiting period of 18 months to two years. By the time a student reaches that rank the time between gup tests could gradually be lengthened so the student gets used to having a longer period of time between tests and, thus, develop a better ability to put off the need for (almost) instant gratification. It's exactly the same kind of idea between the minimum time in grade requirements lengthening to dan ranks. I know many schools where the period of time between the more advanced gup ranks are about six months and they tend to produce students that suffer no great impediment at keeping motivated in their training.

Pax,

Chris


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## RTKDCMB (Jul 29, 2013)

Carol said:


> That's what I thought too. Granted, I have never been a black belt, and may never be one.  However, I thought one of the main reasons why earning BB was like being a white belt all over again is because the black belt this to be self-sufficient and manage their own path.  Is my perception way off here?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



No your perception is right on, when you get a black belt you go from being a big fish in a small pond to being a small fish in an even bigger pond, A black belt should be able to manage their own path but with guidance from his instructor and those more senior.


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## ks - learning to fly (Jul 30, 2013)

although I might draw some fire for my response, I feel I should say that My dojang does keup testing and I agree with it completely. My instructor - who btw does not hide fees - says they are considered 'review' or maintenance tests and I think it's completely necessary....Our keup test are every six months between 1st and 2nd Dan and we need at least 50 lessons between tests, the cost is minimal...I guess the reason I'm a little confused about some of the posts I've read is because some seem to think that once they earn their black belt should be able to 'determine their own path'....However, if Black Belt is considered the 'beginning of serious study' - wouldn't it be fair to think that an occasional review test would prompt a student to hold themselves accountable to a disciplined training regimen??  Further, if it's the beginning - wouldn't it be the time where your instructor would be a valuable asset? 

Again, this is only my opinion - but my next keup test is in October and I'm looking forward to it!


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 30, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> No your perception is right on, when you get a black belt you go from being a big fish in a small pond to being a small fish in an even bigger pond, A black belt should be able to manage their own path but with guidance from his instructor and those more senior.



You are expecting a lot from a 7 year old


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## andyjeffries (Jul 30, 2013)

ks - learning to fly said:


> I guess the reason I'm a little confused about some of the posts I've read is because some seem to think that once they earn their black belt should be able to 'determine their own path'....However, if Black Belt is considered the 'beginning of serious study' - wouldn't it be fair to think that an occasional review test would prompt a student to hold themselves accountable to a disciplined training regimen??  Further, if it's the beginning - wouldn't it be the time where your instructor would be a valuable asset?



In my mind, it's because black belt holders (yudanja) are supposed to have "grown up".  Ignore for now children doing Taekwondo, and child black-belts.  Think during my explanation of coloured belts as being "children in Taekwondo" and black belts as "adults" (albeit 1st/2nd/3rd Dan are young adults, just out of Taekwondo teenage years).  So, regardless of the practitioner's real age, consider the rank to be their age for the purposes of this post.

So while coloured belts (children) need frequent reinforcement that they are doing the right thing, adults should need less so.  Young adults probably need it more than older adults (hence why the dan tests get less frequent the higher/older - in my analogy - you get).

It's often said that Korean GM at the Kukkiwon don't like international masters to attend the Kukkiwon instructor course with patches and badges, etc saying things like "children need these things, not master instructors".  While, I didn't hear that when I attended the Instructor course in July this year, the same principle does hold true.  Children (coloured belts) need frequent reinforcement in terms or badges or tests, adults (black belts) should need this less and less.

So, I don't feel that yudanja need additional tests in between dan tests.  And just because in my option there shouldn't be all these additional tests, it doesn't mean your instructor isn't a valuable asset - they aren't there just as an exam provider ;-)


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## RTKDCMB (Jul 30, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> You are expecting a lot from a 7 year old



Which 7 year old are you referring to?


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## Thousand Kicks (Jul 30, 2013)

I am a little confused by people's responses that these Dan gup tests keep black belts focused and/or are maintenance tests in preparation for the next dan test. At my school, the head instructor has final say on whether any student can test, colored belts or black belts. If you are attending class regularly and putting in the effort your instructor should know if you are ready for the next test. A maintenance test, at least in my eyes, would mean your instructor is not sure if you are ready (i.e. has not been paying attention to your training), or as the OP said, is trying to generate additional revenue. 

If in the span of time between dan tests you can't find anything that you need to improve, then you're not being honest with yourself. No maintenance test is going to help with that problem.


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## sfs982000 (Jul 30, 2013)

Our school does Mid-tem testing for black belt ranks.  Beginning at first degree to go to second degree you have to have a successful midterm test from second to third degre 2 succsessful midterms, etc....  The midterm tests have a set fee which in my school is cheaper than most testing fees.


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## msmitht (Jul 31, 2013)

I have seen this practice and find it both interesting and despicable. Mid level testing is good for black belts as it keeps them on their toes, so to speak, but should not be a means of generating revenue. There was a school in Los Angeles that made Black belts take 4 in term tests that each cost $160. The tests for poom/Dan were 1k, 2k,3k...etc.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 31, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Which 7 year old are you referring to?



 A black belt should be able to manage their own path but with guidance from his instructor and those more senior. 







 Originally Posted by *Earl Weiss* 

				 You are expecting a lot from a 7 year old 

Any 7 year old


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## SJON (Jul 31, 2013)

As a brief aside, I wonder if you could enlighten me.

Is this highly commercial model the norm? I mean, do most schools in the US operate fixed-duration contracts, black-belt clubs, special leadership courses, etc., or is it just a particular type of school?

How about in the UK? Perhaps Andy could fill me in on this. When I was training in the UK (this was nearly 20 years ago) most clubs operated out of church halls or other hired premises, charged on a cash-in-hand class-by-class basis and were run by masters who had a day job.

How about in other European countries? Gnarlie?

Here in Spain most clubs belong to professional gyms, and the master is usually the owner. Payment is usually monthly and can be cancelled at any time. There is no obligation to grade, and no obligation to get KKW homologation of Dan grades. My own Dan grades are under the Spanish national federation and under an independent master, and I chose not to get KKW homologation for any of them, nor was I under any pressure to do so. I don't recall ever testing for "half grades" between coloured belts either (I did in the UK, though).
The only way BB's are fleeced here is via the obligatory refereeing courses that are a requirement for each Dan grade, and the way the instructor courses are set up.

Cheers,

Simon


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 31, 2013)

SJON said:


> As a brief aside, I wonder if you could enlighten me.
> 
> Is this highly commercial model the norm? I mean, do most schools in the US operate fixed-duration contracts, black-belt clubs, special leadership courses, etc., or is it just a particular type of school?


I cannot speak for the rest of the US, but in the DC Metroplitan area, Northern VA, and Maryland in general, it is the norm.  I see enough bellyaching about it on the web from people all over the US to confidently say that it is fairly common in most of the US, though I won't go so far as to say 'most' due to lack of firsthand information.


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## andyjeffries (Jul 31, 2013)

SJON said:


> Is this highly commercial model the norm? I mean, do most schools in the US operate fixed-duration contracts, black-belt clubs, special leadership courses, etc., or is it just a particular type of school?
> 
> How about in the UK? Perhaps Andy could fill me in on this. When I was training in the UK (this was nearly 20 years ago) most clubs operated out of church halls or other hired premises, charged on a cash-in-hand class-by-class basis and were run by masters who had a day job.



This is still the case.  Most clubs in the UK (with literally a handful of exceptions coming to mind) operate out of hired premises for a few classes per week and are either cash-in-hand class-paid basis or at most, monthly automated payment.  Most instructors do it as a labour of love, making minimal money (if any) and have a day job.

That certainly describes me.  We've had monthly payments for years for adults (no contract or anything, just if you want to train, you pay each month).  We switched to automated (standing order) payments about a year ago and it's made a considerable difference.



SJON said:


> There is no obligation to grade, and no obligation to get KKW homologation of Dan grades. My own Dan grades are under the Spanish national federation and under an independent master, and I chose not to get KKW homologation for any of them, nor was I under any pressure to do so.



For Kukki-Taekwondo in the UK, generally Kukkiwon certification is a must (either through British Taekwondo, our WTF MNA, or through other bodies).



SJON said:


> I don't recall ever testing for "half grades" between coloured belts either (I did in the UK, though).



We have 10 kup ranks (in our club, although this is fairly standard in the UK).  Every other kup rank is a stripe/tag - but this isn't considered a "half grade", but a full kup rank.  We could use different colours for each of the 10 grades, but it's been long tradition to use something like "white, yellow, green, blue, red, black" with a stripe/tag alternating with the full colour belt.



SJON said:


> The only way BB's are fleeced here is via the obligatory refereeing courses that are a requirement for each Dan grade, and the way the instructor courses are set.



We now don't have obligatory referee courses or instructor courses to sit Dan tests (only to be a referee or instructor, respectively).  You must have attended a technical seminar in the year before you test (but the cost is reasonable).


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## SJON (Jul 31, 2013)

Thanks. That reminds me of another difference between the UK and Spain. Here the colours are white, yellow, orange, green, blue, *brown*, red/black for junior BB's (must be re-graded for adult BB), black.

Actually, now that I think of it, kids here nowadays do have what I referred to as half grades, but they don't use stripes, they use belts that are - for example - half yellow and half orange lengthwise, like the junior red/black belt. When I came to Spain I was a blue belt under a UK KKW-affiliated org that used a stripe system, but had to start again from white over here. Back then it was all "whole colour" belts in Spain, no tags, stripes or whatever, but that was ages ago. I don't recall when the "bi-colour" belts came in, but that could be seen as a concession to commercialism, I suppose.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 31, 2013)

In the Hapkido I studied, we had gup ranks.  They were stages (or perhaps levels) of learning.  There were 8 gups from white belt to 1st Dan, and 8 gups from 1st Dan to 2nd Dan.  From 2nd Dan to 3rd Dan, there were again levels, but I don't recall them being referred to as gups.  Each gup was tested at the end of learning for that gup.  I seem to remember the tests were $30 each for a gup.  Practice BB was $50, and the BB was $100.  There was also a monthly fee, which I think was also $30.  Now this was back in the 80s, so it doesn't really apply to today's ways of doing things.  But I think my GM's son is probably doing the same thing in NJ where he has his school, just adjusting for inflation/cost of living.

So as I understood gup, it was a level.  Every level contained new techniques.  Some were completely new, others new, but built on previous learning.  Some gups were completely grappling, some punch defense, some kick defense, some other things, such as knife defense, sword defense, or counters to previous techniques.  I saw no problem with that.  I was always learning new things, with what I saw as reasonable divisions in learning.

Divisions, whether called gup or something else, purely for monetary reasons is unfortunate.  Even for maintaining interest.  But perhaps that just says something about American society.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 31, 2013)

this is nothing but a revenue generation tool, and serves no purpose other than making money. this sounds like a ATA or KKW tactic


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## granfire (Jul 31, 2013)

One of the few very god tings of the ITA.
Tests were every two month, color belts 50 bucks, BBs 95.

To be eligible for BBtest you had to log in a certain amount of classes before the test - in that specific time frame between tests, so you were reasonbaly sure to be in some sort of a shape. From first probationary through - I am thinking 3rd - the $$ was the same. Not sure about further on up, since those were tested at the national tournament.

450 per test? Interesting....


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 31, 2013)

In the organization I used to belong to they started with "check-up" tests once a year for black belts, but these check-ups eventually became actual tests. I think several organizations do something similar.

Each rank between dans is designated with a title or number, so it's easy to figure out how much minimum time before their next dan test. For some orgs it's as simple as 4.1, 4.2, etc., but others have some funny titles (at least to me): 4 senior, 4 top senior, 4 high top senior...the higher the dan grade the more ridiculous the titles get. 

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2


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## WaterGal (Jul 31, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Let me tell you some dollar amounts. Bb gup test fees are $60 a pop. Bb are expected to test 10 times a year. Then add the average monthly fee of $125-$150. Finally, when Bb is ready to do a dan test, that will be about $600 or more. Taekwon Dinero.



$60 a test almost every month?  That does seem kinda outrageous.  

Our dojang does do some mini-tests between dan tests for the reasons I mentioned before, but they're only $20 a few times per year (our regular geup fee is $40, every 2-3 months).  And even with the costs of boards, a certificate, etc, we're still earning a little profit off each test. 

So while schools do have to make a profit on various things in order to stay in business and for the teacher(s) to earn a decent living, especially in expensive areas - there definitely is a point where it becomes fleecing the students.  It sounds like that school had crossed that line.


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## mango.man (Aug 1, 2013)

My daughter's school did this and presumably still does.  She attended from 98-06.  BB's didn't have to pay for the tests but had to test at just about every color belt test and demonstrate that they could perform under the pressure and scrutiny of a testing environment.  I think it was more about getting as many blackbelts to show up and assist with the testing of color belts than it was about testing the skills of the blackbelts.  But they were evaluated and although nothing changed on their uniforms etc they were referred to as 1st Dan / 3rd Gup for example and they could not test for their next Dan until the proper time in rank requirement passed and they had completed 10 intermediary tests from 1st Dan / 10 Gup - 1 Gup.

As long as we didn't have to pay I was OK with it and with the goofy Dan\Gup designation.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 1, 2013)

The OP has another thread that, aside from the specifics of dan/gup gradings, is essentially the same; bemoaning testing fees in the MD/DC/NoVA area.  The following is my response on that thread:



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'm going to preface this by saying that I find the proliferation of testing fees and additional fees to be distasteful and by adding that I do not charge for testing.
> 
> One of the reasons for the increase in testing fees is unrelated to greed or a lack of integrity.  I live and train in the area you are posting about and I spent many years in retail, both on the sales floor and in management.  Landlords in this area are rent crazy.  They would rather have empty space than charge a more reasonable rent.  Buildings here literally sit empty for_ years _because of this.  When I was training with my last Korean master, I saw firsthand how the mall management squeezed more and more money from him.  A good friend ran a bookstore next to the dojang, which is partly how I found the dojang.  He couldn't afford it, didn't want to close or move, so he accepted a buyout offer from a larger bookstore.
> 
> ...


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## mango.man (Aug 1, 2013)

Here is what I replied to the other thread:



			
				mango.man said:
			
		

> When they tell you that little Johnny green belt's testing fee is going up because the Kukkiwon has raised their fee, that is when it is time to run away.
> 
> Yes I have seen that in writing as the excuse for raising testing fees on color belts.  So sad to report that no parents or even adult students questioned such a thing.


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## msmitht (Aug 1, 2013)

SJON said:


> As a brief aside, I wonder if you could enlighten me.
> 
> Is this highly commercial model the norm? I mean, do most schools in the US operate fixed-duration contracts, black-belt clubs, special leadership courses, etc., or is it just a particular type of school?
> 
> ...



Its the norm. Parents usually do not do their proper homework and just take their child to the closest school with the most convenient schedule. Black belt clubs(lol), overcharging for tests and poor standards plague schools in case.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 1, 2013)

mango.man said:


> My daughter's school did this and presumably still does.  She attended from 98-06.  BB's didn't have to pay for the tests but had to test at just about every color belt test and demonstrate that they could perform under the pressure and scrutiny of a testing environment.  I think it was more about getting as many blackbelts to show up and assist with the testing of color belts than it was about testing the skills of the blackbelts.  But they were evaluated and although nothing changed on their uniforms etc they were referred to as 1st Dan / 3rd Gup for example and they could not test for their next Dan until the proper time in rank requirement passed and they had completed 10 intermediary tests from 1st Dan / 10 Gup - 1 Gup.
> 
> As long as we didn't have to pay I was OK with it and with the goofy Dan\Gup designation.



My old GM did the same thing with regards to having yudanja at geub gradings, and I suspect the motivation was much the same.  Personally, I think it's a good idea.


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## jks9199 (Aug 1, 2013)

msmitht said:


> Its the norm. Parents usually do not do their proper homework and just take their child to the closest school with the most convenient schedule. Black belt clubs(lol), overcharging for tests and poor standards plague schools in case.



And sometimes, they just want a martial art themed day care...

Minor soapbox rant...

So many of the commercial martial arts schools, which in the greater DC area seem to be rather dominated by TKD and its variants, are really just disguised day care services.  They pick the kids up after school, have a "homework period", other activities and tuck a martial arts class in while watching the kids until the parents claim them.  Except that they don't meet the student/caregiver ratios required, may not have done a background check on the staff, who may not even speak English proficiently...  But they dodge the requirements because they are "martial arts programs" not "daycare centers."  I don't mind the daycare aspect; it's a business call.  I DO mind that they don't meet the requirments of a daycare center.  And it's going to keep going that way until we have a tragedy...


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 1, 2013)

Some interesting points about not meeting daycare license requirements.  Here is a funny story from the opposite side.

I worked at a company that paid parents $15/day upon a receipt from any licensed daycare.  So one woman got herself and her home licensed as a daycare, worked the early shift, and took care of 1 child after school: her own!  The company soon changed its policy that it paid for "any" licensed daycare!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 2, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The OP has another thread that, aside from the specifics of dan/gup gradings, is essentially the same; bemoaning testing fees in the MD/DC/NoVA area.  The following is my response on that thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is a follow up post that I had made in the other thread.  Information correction:


Daniel Sullivan said:


> I did some digging and looked up monthly rent and you are correct, making the average rent for a twenty thousand square foot studio about 3,300 dollars.  I'm surprised I didn't catch that myself.  Thanks!
> 
> When I left the Gaithersburg school where I had trained, they had about eighty students in total at the time.  But when they were healthier, they had about a hundred, which would mean $10,000 a month.Take away 3300 in rent and you're left with 6,300 per month.  Take out costs of insurance, payroll, utilities and taxes and you are probably down to around five thousand per month left over for the owner.  That is roughly 60k a year gross income for the owner, which in Montgomery County, MD, isn't an outrageous salary.  Now, from that 60K, he/she needs to provide themselves with health insurance, retirement, and all of the things that I get as benefits from my day job.  I don't know what that works out to specifically, but if you have a family, it is not a lavish income in this area at all.


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## Tgace (Aug 2, 2013)

I hear through word of mouth that a local school has a policy where black belt tests will only be conducted ONLY during a yearly seminar where various martial arts notables are brought in. 

The student is made to pay the $500 seminar fee (to increase seminar attendance and fund the attendees I assume) and show up for the seminar or he/she wont be promoted until he/she can attend the next seminar, typically a year later.

It's an interesting twist on the belt testing fee meme.


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## Rumy73 (Aug 3, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This is a follow up post that I had made in the other thread.  Information correction:



This guy who Daniel mentions now runs  big warehouse in Md as a dojang. No heat or AC. He does not tell parents about the lack of climate control. Nice.


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## Gorilla (Aug 3, 2013)

A twenty thousand square ft Dojang for 100 students is way to much square feet!

am I reading that wrong...3-5k would be more than enough!!!!!


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 3, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> This guy who Daniel mentions now runs  big warehouse in Md as a dojang. No heat or AC. He does not tell parents about the lack of climate control. Nice.


I remember in his book that Chuck Norris said he started training in Korea at a place without climate control.  As I recall, he said winter was fine because he could wear more clothes and warm up, but summer was terrible since he would sweat a lot, and in training for hours, he thighs would rub raw.


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## Archtkd (Aug 3, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> A twenty thousand square ft Dojang for 100 students is way to much square feet!
> 
> am I reading that wrong...3-5k would be more than enough!!!!!



That number can't be accurate.  That kind of space should be a 1,000-member dojang.


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## terrylamar (Aug 3, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> A twenty thousand square ft Dojang for 100 students is way to much square feet!
> 
> am I reading that wrong...3-5k would be more than enough!!!!!



I could teach 100 students school in 2,000 square feet and that includes restrooms, changing rooms and office.  Not every one of the 100 students would come to every class, every day.  Figure 25% would come to your busiest class, maybe sometimes a few more.  Even packed, we have all been to seminars where we have to turn at a 45 degree angle to fit everyone in.  A 3-5K school could handle weapons like the sword or staff.   In 20K floor space you would get lost.


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## terrylamar (Aug 3, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I remember in his book that Chuck Norris said he started training in Korea at a place without climate control.  As I recall, he said winter was fine because he could wear more clothes and warm up, but summer was terrible since he would sweat a lot, and in training for hours, he thighs would rub raw.



I realize it wouldn't be for everyone, but I like this idea and have been considering it.  I would call it Sparta or something like that.  My idea of classes is real hard training.  It may not be a commercial success, but it would have some hardcore students.


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## Carol (Aug 3, 2013)

terrylamar said:


> I realize it wouldn't be for everyone, but I like this idea and have been considering it.  I would call it Sparta or something like that.  My idea of classes is real hard training.  It may not be a commercial success, but it would have some hardcore students.



What, indoors? On a flat surface?   Protected from the rain and the snow and the wind?  

You should join me hiking up a mountain sometime.


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## terrylamar (Aug 3, 2013)

Carol said:


> What, indoors? On a flat surface?   Protected from the rain and the snow and the wind?
> 
> You should join me hiking up a mountain sometime.



Trust me, there would be frequent training sessions in the outdoors!


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## SJON (Aug 4, 2013)

terrylamar said:


> i realize it wouldn't be for everyone, but i like this idea and have been considering it.  I would call it sparta or something like that.  My idea of classes is real hard training.  It may not be a commercial success, but it would have some hardcore students.



I like the idea, but nowadays it wouldn't really be viable, except - as you say - for hardcore students, i.e. not a commercial venture.

On the other hand, the Crossfit and Crossfit-a-like gyms here in Spain are just that: basic warehouse-type facilities, very spartan. That's supposed to be part of the appeal.

But then, Crossfitters are probably a different breed to a significant proportion of potential TKD students. Also, here at least, MA gyms are not just MA. They usually have to run several activities to keep it commercially viable, so as well as the MA and weights, you find aerobics, dance, health Tai Chi, fitness classes for senior citizens, kids' summer activities, etc. That client base wouldn't take kindly to a warehouse with no showers, although even they would consider air conditioning to be something for soft Americans .


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## SJON (Aug 4, 2013)

Actually, I remember at least half of my training in the UK nearly 20 years ago was done in unheated premises (church halls, student union rooms not intended for MA practice) with hard floors and no showers, which meant blood blisters on the feet, hard falls and walking home afterwards smelling bad. The other half of the time we at least had mats on the floor.

We also did a lot of medium-to-heavy contact sparring with zero protective gear, which was also commonplace in Spain until a few years ago, and still is in some dojangs.

Perhaps that's what we mean by "hardcore". But there were always plenty of students, so either people have changed or there has been a shift in focus to target a different market.


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## SJON (Aug 4, 2013)

New thread started here http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/110876-harshness-of-training?p=1588004#post1588004 to avoid drift.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 5, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> A twenty thousand square ft Dojang for 100 students is way to much square feet!
> 
> am I reading that wrong...3-5k would be more than enough!!!!!


That's because I was writing it wrong.  Too many zeros!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 5, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> This guy who Daniel mentions now runs  big warehouse in Md as a dojang. No heat or AC. He does not tell parents about the lack of climate control. Nice.


This is not entirely accurate.  Assuming he hasn't moved or made any major renovations to the dojang, he put in six long electric base board heaters before I left.  The front area and the after school program area are air conditioned and there is a duct to the training area.  Ceiling fans and a large back door that we could open mitigated a lot of the issues with heat.  It was not ideal, considering the size of the training area, but to say that he has _*no *_heat or AC is not correct.  Now, the effectiveness of what he has is a different topic.  

Not having trained there in several years, I won't comment one way or the other, as there has been time enough for him to either have moved or to have gutted the place and renovated it.  You and anyone reading my post can make of it what you will.

For myself and the hardcore students, particularly the kendo students, it was tollerable except on the coldest of days.  For a large school with a mix of predominantly kids?  That is another matter.  Most of my time with him was at the Flower Hill location, which was retail space and was heated and air conditioned.  No idea how it's all working out for him.  

I'm not promoting or sticking up for him, but I do have first hand knowledge of the school.  If I see accusations posted about it that aren't accurate, I feel obliged to point it out.  As I said on the other thread, I will not denigrate any specific schools or teachers publicly and I will not offer to discuss any issues with former dojangs privately.  I've laid to rest any differences I've had with prior places of training and have moved on with my life.    

Aside from it being a matter of decorum, and in the case of the gentleman you're posting about, a matter of simply not wishing to disrespect a former sabeom on a public forum, going after people online can sometimes have negative offline consequences.  

In the end, what does it matter?  The people who would benefit most from an online review of the school aren't on MT.  I'm no longer training there and am very happy where I am and doing what I'm doing.   Every place where I have trained has provided me with something positive and has increased my knowledge in some way.  Sometimes in unexpected ways, but in some way nonetheless.  I take the good and leave behind any negativity, and I wish him and his well.


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## Rumy73 (Aug 5, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This is a follow up post that I had made in the other thread.  Information correction:



Actually it is accurate, I have been there more recently than you. The heaters he installed are left off or broken. There is no AC anywhere in the place. Everything I said here, I said to him.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 6, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Actually it is accurate, I have been there more recently than you. The heaters he installed are left off or broken. There is no AC anywhere in the place. Everything I said here, I said to him.



That is unfortunate.  He was very generous to my kids and I when we were there.  I had hoped that things were going better.


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## WaterGal (Aug 6, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That's because I was writing it wrong.  Too many zeros!



Yeah, 20,000 sf is the size of a grocery store.  That being said, the $3000-ish/month you had listed for a _2,000_ sf space in the suburbs of a big city is on par with my experience.  Our rent is more than that, though our space is larger and in a great location.  Add to that another grand or more in utilities, liability insurance and marketing..... it's an expensive business.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 10, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> I would like your input on a practice common in Dc, Md, NoVa. Tkd schools and hapkido schools have created gup ranks in between Dan levels. These are KKW certification issuing schools. While the KKW has no such requirement, in my experience, masters are not exactly forthcoming that the practice is a creation of the school. It allows the school the generate testing fees every month or two on top of the contractual monthly fee. The cost for black belts increases with each Dan level. In this area first Dan is about $450-$600. Although I could easily be a third Dan by now under KKW standards, I refuse to pay these fees, which I find outrageous. What do these "dan gup tests" consist of? Schools teach various weapons forms (copying Chinese and Japanese staff katas, etc.). While nice to learn, it is not KKW TKD. Students should be given the option. However, that is not the case and Dan tests are essential held hostage. Taekwon dinero.



By necessity, both martial arts and martial sports are taught by rote:

1*:* the use of memory usually with little intelligence <learn by _rote_> 
2*:* mechanical or unthinking routine or repetition 

The reason is simply to instill instinctive muscle memory to reduce reaction time.  Thus the idea that a black belt, who outside of Korea probably has several years of training, needs to have gup testing (or recertification training) is beyond stupid.  And any attempt to justify this money-grab by saying it motivates students to continue training doesn't speak very highly of the training itself holding the interest of the student.  Indeed, it would inticate that the training in question is sub-par and that only a financial incentive being held over the head will retain students.

Money grab and nothing more.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 10, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> And any attempt to justify this money-grab by saying it motivates students to continue training doesn't speak very highly of the training itself holding the interest of the student.
> 
> Plus Black belts should be mentally strong enough to motivate themselves, which also reflects upon the school and its training.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 11, 2013)

rtkdcmb said:


> kong soo do said:
> 
> 
> > and any attempt to justify this money-grab by saying it motivates students to continue training doesn't speak very highly of the training itself holding the interest of the student.
> ...


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## msmitht (Aug 11, 2013)

At a school down the street they offer 4different programs that their black belts can train in after 1st Dan. Black belt classes are free with tuition. Weapons class is 25 extra per month. Xma is another 25. MMA class requires another uniform and is another 25 per month. I believe that there are also instructor classes where they have to memorize previous forms and test on that knowledge(again, more $). 
Seems OK but the dues keel piling up. Guess that's why I get a lot of business from them. Their black belts don't like dropping rank but seem to be OK once they realize that there are different standards/rules/poomsae...etc. one parent insisted on keeping rank. A trip to watch state championship changed her mind.
No problem with making money but some schools seem to be only about that. Sad really. It puts a bad taste in their mouths that might never go away.


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## arnisador (Aug 11, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Usually when one gets to black belt they should be fairly self sufficient when it comes to their own development



It depends on the art--in some cases that's essentially the end of new material but in other arts there may be significant new material up to 3rd or even 5th degree black belt. 

These between-dan grades sound silly and money-grubbing to me in any event. But one reason colored belts initially took hold, I've been told, is that kids couldn't stay on track if the system was just white-black or white-green-brown-black. They needed more continuous reinforcement and shorter-term goals. Of course now it's done for money but if you have an 11 year old 3rd degree black belt then maybe you still need these cheap tricks to keep them coming back instead of switching to soccer.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 11, 2013)

This may be controversial, but I don't see anything wrong with creative ways to increase profitability, as long as the student perceives some value in it.

You can say that extra tests or belts are just a money grab and extra motivation shouldn't be needed, but I would say that you (general you) are maybe out of touch with the reality of most students these days.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 12, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> This may be controversial, but I don't see anything wrong with creative ways to increase profitability, as long as the student perceives some value in it.
> 
> You can say that extra tests or belts are just a money grab and extra motivation shouldn't be needed, but I would say that you (general you) are maybe out of touch with the reality of most students these days.
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2



There is always a balance between what the instructor believes the students need and what the students actually want and since they are students they don't always know whats best for them. The only thing the instructor can do is to lead by example and to guide them along their journey.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 12, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> This may be controversial, but I don't see anything wrong with creative ways to increase profitability, as long as the student perceives some value in it.



In the following rant the term 'you' is meant as a general 'you' and not specific.  

Creative ways to increase profitability?  So now charging a reasonable fee for the instruction itself isn't enough anymore?  Charging ridiculous amounts of money for a piece of paper and a piece of cloth isn't enough anymore?  We now need to hold their Dan certification hostage by charging '_recert_' fees and '_in-between_' grade fees?  And that is exactly what it is...holding the Dan cert hostage.  What happens if they don't/can't continue to pay the *scam-fees*?  Does their knowledge and experience suddenly fly out of their heads?  Do they suddenly forget how to do a form?  No, but it will affect whether or not they receive the promotion they've earned or the next one.  Or do we now rescind the Dan cert if they don't cough up the additional funds?  

I'm going to call it for exactly what it is...a SCAM.  It is bilking even more money out of the student than has already, unfortunately, become the accepted norm.  If you have to hold a students Dan cert for any length of time to keep them coming to class (and paying tuition) or if you have to charge 'recert' or 'in-between' fees then what you're teaching in-and-of-itself isn't enough to hold the interest of the student.  Which speaks very poorly of what you teach.  

But I'll add this into the mix.  I can't really blame ANY student of TKD for splitting after they've reached Dan grade.  In almost every segment of TKD I've seen there is very *little to no* new information to learn.  Yes, there may be new forms for each Dan grade but it is nothing more than a remix of the same material that was learned as a yellow belt.   How many forms do you need to throw a punch or kick?  I'd say.....one.  I don't mean to piss anyone off, but I'm sure I've already gone and done it so I'll forge ahead and say that most modern TKD is very shallow in-and-of-itself which is why it doesn't hold many people's attention after the first Dan.  And I formed this opinion years ago after quite a lengthy discussion with a 7th Dan in a certain TKD organization that is, shall we say, rather large.  He stated he had trained under the same Korean GM for 30 years but hadn't learned a single 'new' thing in the last 23 years of the 30.  Not because he wasn't motivated, just there wasn't anything new to learn.  Just a rehash of colored belt material.  And this is a perfect example of block/punch/kick methodology vs. advanced techniques in the forms.  Like it or not, there are two views that exist.  One is learn a new form for every single colored and black belt level where the forms are just the same type of stuff b/p/k rehashed.  The other is to take a single form and learn every piece of information it contains.  Many that don't know this information will scoff and put down this methodology.  Oh...it doesn't exist.  Oh...there is nothing in the forms.  Oh...you're reverse engineering.  

Whatever

I can...and have taken a SINGLE form and taught every aspect of it for years on end to students who just couldn't get enough and kept coming back for more.  And I didn't charge belt testing fees.  I didn't charge recert fees.  I didn't charge for a Dan test.  I didn't hold up their cert to keep them coming back.  And these students learned not only b/p/k but also locks, throws, chokes, cavity pressing, misplacing the bone/tendon etc off of ONE form.  

So I'll end the rant with just this;  if you have to have creative tricks to keep them coming back...maybe you need to examine what you're teaching instead.   EVERY instructor should have continuing education.  Sadly, most don't hence the creative tricks and scams.  

Again, generic 'you' and not intended towards anyone specific here on the board or anywhere.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 12, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> This may be controversial, but I don't see anything wrong with creative ways to increase profitability, as long as the student perceives some value in it.
> 
> You can say that extra tests or belts are just a money grab and extra motivation shouldn't be needed, but I would say that you (general you) are maybe out of touch with the reality of most students these days.
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2


The conundrum is that if you raise your tuition, people will leave because they see an immediately measurable difference in what they pay.  If you increase the number of tests, the fees for testing, or have a fee that escalates with the grade, it doesn't register as a more expensive school.  Even with a 500.00 first dan test, it is viewed as this nebulous thing far off in the future.  

I think creative ways to increase profitability are just fine.  But there is a fine line between increasing profitability and just plain gouging.  The problem that I have with some of that stuff after first dan is that you're hammering a smaller number of students who have already bled for you and who have already absorbed two or more years of creative profit generation and are now at a point where their presence in the school benefits other students and the school on your behalf.  

Black belt students are usually assigned greater responsibility and are often asked to lead classes, especially in taekwondo schools.  Last week, due to a family emergency, one of my first dan kendo students took the class for me.  That is something that a kyu grade student couldn't have done; it was not a beginner class and required someone with a strong enough knowledge of the material to be able to teach it.  In my case, this is a rare exception; I have never handed my teaching duties to a yudansha prior, but many TKD schools have first through third dan students teaching regularly.  

No value judgement on teaching ildans, but I think that handing these students more responsibilities and then charging them even more for the privlidge of having them is just wrong.  And I have seen it done more times than I would like to.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 12, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I think creative was to increase profitability are just fine.  But there is a fine line between increasing profitability and just plain gouging.  The problem that I have with some of that stuff after first dan is that you're hammering a smaller number of students who have already bled for you and who have already absorbed two or more years of creative profit generation and are now at a point where their presence in the school benefits other students and the school on your behalf...No value judgement on teaching ildans, but I think that handing these students more responsibilities and then charging them even more for the privlidge of having them is just wrong.  And I have seen it done more times than I would like to.



+1


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 12, 2013)

I'm going to add to my previous statement that charging people to be on the demo team is another thing that I consider to be pure price gouging.  Even making them buy their own demo uniforms; as a business owner, these things can be deducted as business expenses.

Want creative ways to increase profitability?  Here are a few that don't involve, to quote the title of the thread, fleecing black belts:

*Special clubs (*BBC, leadership, masters, etc.).  So long as membership in such clubs isn't required for promotion or to learn important parts of the syllabus.
*Daycare, after school programs, summer camps*.  I'm not a huge fan of these, but done well, they can keep the lights on and keep tuition at a reasonable rate.
*Events*.  Special events held at the school with an at the door fee; perhaps students are free and guests are charged or students are charged a lower rate than guests.  Movie nights, potluck, etc.
*Birthday parties*.  I list this separate from events even though it technically is an event.  Birthday parties usually command a greater fee than a movie night.
*Fund raising*.  Hold fund raising events, get people to sponsor students in some endeavor to raise money for the school, etc.
*Pro shop*.  So long as you don't _require_ students to buy from you, overcharge to your hearts content.  Or price yourself competitively and establish a retail presence.  

These are just a few things that I came up with off the top of my head that don't necessitate gouging your students with tests or crazy tuition.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 12, 2013)

I happen to agree that price gouging and other similar practices are not good. However, I happen to think that just like nearly anything else, a fair price is what the market will bear. Why do name brands cost more than non name brands if not because of perceived value? If an instructor is savvy enough (not dishonest) to create a perception of high value, I say more power to them.

As for recertification fees, these are not unique to Taekwondo or even MA. I was a certified teacher. Because I didn't take the classes/refresher courses set out by the state (I no longer live in the state), I'm no longer a certified teacher in that state. The state basically holds teachers' certifications hostage. Even better, the requirements change over time. I'm sure there are plenty of examples from other fields, as well.

To be extra clear, I'm not advocating hidden costs or unethical business practices, just saying that I think some people are a little touchy about MA as a business. 

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 12, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> I happen to agree that price gouging and other similar practices are not good. However, I happen to think that just like nearly anything else, a fair price is what the market will bear. Why do name brands cost more than non name brands if not because of perceived value? If an instructor is savvy enough (not dishonest) to create a perception of high value, I say more power to them.
> 
> As for recertification fees, these are not unique to Taekwondo or even MA. I was a certified teacher. Because I didn't take the classes/refresher courses set out by the state (I no longer live in the state), I'm no longer a certified teacher in that state. The state basically holds teachers' certifications hostage. Even better, the requirements change over time. I'm sure there are plenty of examples from other fields, as well.
> 
> ...


I'm not touchy about it personally, but there are a lot of monkey games that are not played in other businesses.  In fact, one of the justifications for Toyota's higher cost is that you'll pay *less* as you drive the car and will get paid back when you sell the car.  MA businesses already charge a fairly high monthly rate and the longer you drive, the *more* you pay.

Tuition rates are already set at what the market will bear in most places.  Thus the extra fees.  Testing fees, be they a set rate per test or escalating fees as students advance are also fairly consistent from school to school.  The addition of interval tests with extra fees between dan grades is something I began to see only within the past five years and is a practice that I just cannot get behind.

Now, if you're tuition rate is next to nothing, then I'm much more forgiving of weird testing fees.  But schools that do this with test fees are never charging low tuition rates.


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## dancingalone (Aug 12, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Want creative ways to increase profitability?  Here are a few that don't involve, to quote the title of the thread, fleecing black belts:
> 
> *Special clubs (*BBC, leadership, masters, etc.).  So long as membership in such clubs isn't required for promotion or to learn important parts of the syllabus.
> *Daycare, after school programs, summer camps*.  I'm not a huge fan of these, but done well, they can keep the lights on and keep tuition at a reasonable rate.
> ...



Some are cheesier than others.  

Another common practice in my area is to charge different rates for attendence 2x a week vs. 3x vs. unlimited classes.  It is understood that the students on the higher packages will advance faster in great deal due to the more frequent instruction and repetition received.  As a result, the majority of the students are enrolled in at least the middle package even if they sometimes come in only 1x or 2x a week.

I supplement my school earnings with corporate contracts but I understand not everyone has that "luxury".


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## dancingalone (Aug 12, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I can...and have taken a SINGLE form and taught every aspect of it for years on end to students who just couldn't get enough and kept coming back for more.  And I didn't charge belt testing fees.  I didn't charge recert fees.  I didn't charge for a Dan test.  I didn't hold up their cert to keep them coming back.  And these students learned not only b/p/k but also locks, throws, chokes, cavity pressing, misplacing the bone/tendon etc off of ONE form.



I like a lot of what you say, but the facts are the facts.  There's no way I could make my living from martial arts instruction as I currently do if I taught TKD in this way.  It's not just theory either - I've seen it with my own eyes.  I also teach Goju-ryu which has a slow, enstill it in the bones pedagogy.  There is very little crossover between my TKD and Goju students even though I encourage both groups to train with each other and waive any additional fees if they're already training in one art.  The Goju guys occasionally take the TKD classes because of the increased opportunities for sparring and kicking & pad practice.  Meanwhile, the TKD people for the most part find Goju-ryu very, very hard to get into because of the foundational hojo undo and sanchin exercises.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 12, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> Some are cheesier than others.



Oh, absolutely!  And some of them have cheese Whiz spread *on top* of the cheese too!  

I don't personally endorse them, but they can be done without inflicting financial hardship on the students, particularly those who've already paid heavily into your school.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 12, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> I happen to agree that price gouging and other similar practices are not good. However, I happen to think that just like nearly anything else, a fair price is what the market will bear. Why do name brands cost more than non name brands if not because of perceived value? If an instructor is savvy enough (not dishonest) to create a perception of high value, I say more power to them.
> 
> As for recertification fees, these are not unique to Taekwondo or even MA. I was a certified teacher. Because I didn't take the classes/refresher courses set out by the state (I no longer live in the state), I'm no longer a certified teacher in that state. The state basically holds teachers' certifications hostage. Even better, the requirements change over time. I'm sure there are plenty of examples from other fields, as well.
> 
> ...



To be clear, none of my 'rant' was directed at you or anyone.  Just a rant.  I wanted to clarify this as I used you're quote as a spring board 

As for the post above that I've quoted, I understand what you're saying as far as a teacher's recert.  And I can understand this as I have to have recert/continuing education/logged teaching hours for some of my LEO instructor certs.  And I support this as new material may be added to the outline to be passed on to the student.  Or material may have been taken away if found to be ineffectual or something better has replaced it.  I have annual recert training on everything from firearms to CPR to defensive tactics.  This is as a Deputy, but more often than not I'm teaching the class which satisfies both in-service as well as instructor recert in one shot.  So I can see recert for teachers.  I can't see it for students though.  If new material has been added to the art, or a different yet better way to do something then simply add it in or make it a criteria for a new Dan level.  This in and of itself supplies a motivational goal for the student.  

I could see something like:  white to black belt is the b/p/k stuff.  First Dan to second Dan is the beginning of locks.  Second to third Dan introduces throws and sweeps.  Third to fourth Dan gets into weapons etc.  This is just an example, but just as yellow to green (or whatever) introduces new concepts to train in (and/or master) the Dan ranks could do the same thing.  Thus keeping the attention of the student and supplying a boat load of motivational goals.  

If some instructors don't have additional material beyond the first Dan (or whatever level) then that is motivation for the instructor to him/herself gain additional knowledge.  Yes, it takes time and effort.  But it is part of being the very best instructor you can be and offering the most you can possibly offer to the student.  

Some of my continuing education in the arts has been 'are you frigging kidding me this hurts' painful.  But it was time and energy well spent and I learned material that I can now pass on to students.  

I just think there are better ways to motivate a student while at the same time providing a service worthy of what is being charged for the venue.  

I'll second Daniels suggestions as well as being excellent motivational tools that enhance interest while keeping the doors open and food on the table.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 12, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> I like a lot of what you say, but the facts are the facts.  There's no way I could make my living from martial arts instruction as I currently do if I taught TKD in this way.  It's not just theory either - I've seen it with my own eyes.  I also teach Goju-ryu which has a slow, enstill it in the bones pedagogy.  There is very little crossover between my TKD and Goju students even though I encourage both groups to train with each other and waive any additional fees if they're already training in one art.  The Goju guys occasionally take the TKD classes because of the increased opportunities for sparring and kicking & pad practice.  Meanwhile, the TKD people for the most part find Goju-ryu very, very hard to get into because of the foundational hojo undo and sanchin exercises.



I can fully understand what you're saying.  I've seen TKD folks (not picking on TKD folks) come to me and doing stuff like hard-body training (sanchin) and seeing their eyes go wide.  'What do you mean you're going to be punching and kicking and pounding on me while I'm doing a form'?!?  'What do you mean I've got to whack my shin with a bowling pin'?!?

What I'm talking about it what can be taken out of a single form.  You've got the b/p/k stuff to train on.  But you've also got a lot of throwing, locking etc stuff that just leads to so much other stuff that one can train on for quite a long time.  Yes, the TKD would look more like Hapkido just as Karate would look more like AJJ.  And yes, I understand that not everyone can and/or would do this OR the focus of the school isn't geared towards this type of training (in otherwords a sport oriented school would not need this type of training as it wouldn't help them in their specific pursuit).  So in some ways, my argument can not be applied to some schools with any validity.  I fully recognize and understand that.  But for those schools I really think other things (like others have suggested) are a much better path for student motivation/retention.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 12, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> To be clear, none of my 'rant' was directed at you or anyone.  Just a rant.  I wanted to clarify this as I used you're quote as a spring board
> 
> As for the post above that I've quoted, I understand what you're saying as far as a teacher's recert.  And I can understand this as I have to have recert/continuing education/logged teaching hours for some of my LEO instructor certs.  And I support this as new material may be added to the outline to be passed on to the student.  Or material may have been taken away if found to be ineffectual or something better has replaced it.  I have annual recert training on everything from firearms to CPR to defensive tactics.  This is as a Deputy, but more often than not I'm teaching the class which satisfies both in-service as well as instructor recert in one shot.  So I can see recert for teachers.  I can't see it for students though.  If new material has been added to the art, or a different yet better way to do something then simply add it in or make it a criteria for a new Dan level.  This in and of itself supplies a motivational goal for the student.
> 
> ...



Don't worry, I didn't take it personally.

Also, I want to clarify, asking a student to re-certify a dan grade (with the exception of someone who has been out for a long time and needs major refreshing) is not something I agree with. I was thinking re-certification for instructors. But I don't have an issue with adding check-up tests between dans if the instructor thinks it helps motivation, and I think using this kind of motivation says a lot more about society than it does about the quality, or lack thereof, of the training.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 12, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> ...with the exception of someone who has been out for a long time and needs major refreshing...



This is something that I would find appropriate.  It allows someone the goal of getting back up to snuff without making them start from scratch (assuming that they haven't lost everything).  Case-by-case basis.


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## Gorilla (Aug 12, 2013)

Training at a commercial school...would be impossible for us!!! We train at odd hours and with specific trainers for different things!!!!

i have been reading this thread and the whole idea of a commercial school just would not work in a serious sport environment!

During the very demanding parts of our training period a lot of people drop out or don't attend regularly!!! There  are basically only a 4 athlete group that trains together!

They have been running regularly on their own for years!!!!  We just started running with endurance athlete that is going to teach them how to run properly and periodization before meets and tournaments!   Just so many different type of way to train in martial arts!!


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 12, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> This may be controversial, but I don't see anything wrong with creative ways to increase profitability, as long as the student perceives some value in it.


The problem is that the school is PRESUMING that the student sees value in it. My examples of things that add profitability but don't add value for me personally:

1) Mandatory uniform with the school's name printed on it.  A standard TKD uniform is not allowed, which would otherwise let you move between schools more easily.  The printing probably adds $15-20, and of course the cost is passed along.
2) Mandatory tournaments.
3) Plaques, photos, embroidered belts, etc.. at Black Belt Testing.  And of course, with the black belt, you need another new uniform with the school's name on it!
3) Mandatory equipment purchase from the school, under the guise of ensuring the right equipment is purchased.  (You cannot purchase WTF-approved equipment from elswhere).

All of the above are under the guise of adding value, but it is really just passing more costs to the student while PRESUMING the student wants these things.


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## dancingalone (Aug 12, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The problem is that the school is PRESUMING that the student sees value in it. My examples of things that add profitability but don't add value for me personally:



Some of my money-maker pet peeves:



certification overload - you can now become certified in instructorship, weapons, joint locking, self-defense, just about anything.  So far as I can tell, this just meant that you took a test from your teacher in whatever subject we're talking about and you paid a fee to get some paperwork affirming you passed.  Eh?  Whatever happened to the regular old belt test?
differentiating uniforms based on what program you're enrolled in - so people in the BBC might get to wear blue tops with their white pants, and those in the MC get to wear all blue, etc.  Meanwhile, if you're just a basic program loser, you have to stick with the all whites.  It's distasteful to me because I think the dojang/dojo should be a place where we are free from outside social distinctions and whatever personal respect or distinction we have should be earned through our deeds there rather than based on our money or our titles outside.
mandatory special seminars - additional study should be encouraged, but I don't like forcing students to sign up for extra lessons otherwise they don't get to advance with their classmates that did.  For much the same reasons, I don't like "BB Review" seminars - that's called regular class in my book.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 12, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> differentiating uniforms based on what program you're enrolled in - so people in the BBC might get to wear blue tops with their white pants, and those in the MC get to wear all blue, etc.  Meanwhile, if you're just a basic program loser, you have to stick with the all whites.


Please enlighten me as I have never been to a school with a separate BBC.  If you are not in BBC, does that mean you are not looking to test for a BB? Or is the BBC really for the "4-5 times per week" membership versus 2-3 times per week?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 12, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Please enlighten me as I have never been to a school with a separate BBC.  If you are not in BBC, does that mean you are not looking to test for a BB? Or is the BBC really for the "4-5 times per week" membership versus 2-3 times per week?



There is a local school that does this.  It actually is a karate/ninjutsu school.  If you're in the BBC, you wear a black gi.  If not, white.  I've visited the school and trained there a few times.  I had no issues with the teaching or the material, and the staff were excellent.  They don't overload you on tests and certs, but they definitely have the club and uniform thing going and a huge banner that reads, "We are a blackbelt school."  

It doesn't seem to interfere with teaching or learning and there is no differentiation between the material you learn from club members to non club members.  If I recall, regular members can train twice a week for the monthly rate (not unusual in my area) and club members can come as often as they wish.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 12, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Training at a commercial school...would be impossible for us!!! We train at odd hours and with specific trainers for different things!!!!
> 
> i have been reading this thread and the whole idea of a commercial school just would not work in a serious sport environment!
> 
> ...


Probably not a commericial/non-commercial issue.  More of a school flavor issue.  A commerical school could have a very strong competitive program.  The odd hours is more of a scheduling issue.


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## dancingalone (Aug 12, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Please enlighten me as I have never been to a school with a separate BBC.  If you are not in BBC, does that mean you are not looking to test for a BB? Or is the BBC really for the "4-5 times per week" membership versus 2-3 times per week?



A Black Belt Club can be either thing you describe.  I'll explain the first option. 

I've seen a few competitors offer a basic program which will take the student up 2-3 geup levels at most.  It's considered the beginner's program and frequently has a limited number of offered classes, like 2 a week.  Thereafter if you want to advance you have to sign up for the BBC or higher.  Though in theory, students are permitted to stay in the basic program indefinitely, if they are fine with practicing the same material over and over again; in reality, most people switch over to a higher package rather quickly if they didn't already pick it upon enrollment.

There's a certain pricing psychology in play here.  You offer a lower price that you advertise ("as low as"), but once you get a prospect in the door, they're immediately upsold on the BBC.  I mean, people always want the 'best' for their kiddos, right?

The funny thing is that beginner's classes can be great assets for your school if they're run properly.  They shouldn't be treated like low offerings, and at the same time, they shouldn't be changed at whim to whatever the teacher wants to do that night or geared towards any more advanced students that showed up.  My beginner's class is decently popular because people know we'll be doing some calisthenics, working the basic movements, and then pounding on pads and heavy bags.  A good, no frills workout where you will sweat and get better even if it is geared towards 'beginners'.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 13, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The problem is that the school is PRESUMING that the student sees value in it. My examples of things that add profitability but don't add value for me personally:
> 
> 1) Mandatory uniform with the school's name printed on it.  A standard TKD uniform is not allowed, which would otherwise let you move between schools more easily.  The printing probably adds $15-20, and of course the cost is passed along.



I agree with most of what you said. Our uniform style is spec'd by the national org.  It is not school specific and yes it costs perhaps $15.00 more than a plain uniform ($50.00 retail all in) but I think that the darn thing easily lasts 5 years except for kids who outgrow it, the extra cost over time is nominal.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 13, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The problem is that the school is PRESUMING that the student sees value in it. My examples of things that add profitability but don't add value for me personally:
> 
> 1) Mandatory uniform with the school's name printed on it.  A standard TKD uniform is not allowed, which would otherwise let you move between schools more easily.  The printing probably adds $15-20, and of course the cost is passed along.
> 2) Mandatory tournaments.
> ...



1) Most of the school's I've seen and all of the schools I've been a part of offered a free uniform with the first membership plan, even 1 month intro plans.

2) I've never seen mandatory tournament participation required outside of instructors, though it's often highly encouraged, especially if the school is hosting the event.

3) Most of this stuff is geared for kids. I think they probably see plenty of value in it. As an adult, you likely don't need all that stuff.

4) This is a tricky one. If the instructor wants the student's to be uniform in respect to gear, this is probably the easiest way to accomplish that. Hopefully, the prices will be reasonable compared to other sellers. I probably wouldn't require students to purchase from me, but I'd certainly request and encourage it. Every little bit helps, especially in this economy.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 13, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The problem is that the school is PRESUMING that the student sees value in it. My examples of things that add profitability but don't add value for me personally:
> 
> 1) Mandatory uniform with the school's name printed on it.  A standard TKD uniform is not allowed, which would otherwise let you move between schools more easily.  The printing probably adds $15-20, and of course the cost is passed along.
> 2) Mandatory tournaments.
> ...



1) Its is pretty standard for a school to have its own uniforms with the schools name on it unless it is part of a larger group of organizations. A school is advertised by the quality of its students so it often helps if the general public can see the schools name on them. In my school we have our own uniforms that students purchase but we have no objection to someone getting one 2nd hand or wearing a plain uniform of similar style as long as it does not have another school's name on it. Uniforms are meant to be just that, uniform.

2) Its a free country, martial arts participation is voluntary so if tournaments are your thing then they should be voluntary as well.

3) Plaques and photos should be a gift from instructor to student, I have never seen them offered personally.Embroidered belts - I don't think I've ever seen a black belt that was not embroidered. With my school the belt is included as part of the grading fee. A black belt is something you are supposed to have for a long time so why shouldn't it be embroidered. We have instructors uniforms that are in the same style but with the black piping on the bottom made of a thicker material that cost 2-3 times as much as a regular uniform. However they are voluntary but most instructors will buy them because they look a lot better, last 3-5 times longer and have a much better sounding snap to them when you punch and kick.

4) Mandatory equipment - usually a big money grabber. In my school we do not compete in tournaments so there is no protective gear to buy. Students are not required to buy focus mitts or kicking shields but branch instructors will often buy their own wherever they can get them.

If a school is all about the money then they can use these things to squeeze money out of the students but for schools that don't some of the things you mentioned are not necessarily bad things as long as they are voluntary and not mandatory.


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## SJON (Aug 13, 2013)

Reading over a lot of what would appear to be the norm in the US, I can't decide whether in Europe we're incredibly backward or a lot less gullible.

Sure, the MA's do have a certain cult-like air about them even over here, but honestly, the kind of hard-sell, relentlessly marketed stuff I'm reading would have even school owners here - never mind the general public - in fits of laughter.

No offence. I find it genuinely bemusing. And amusing. And rather depressing.

Cheers,

Simon


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 13, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> 3) Embroidered belts - I don't think I've ever seen a black belt that was not embroidered. With my school the belt is included as part of the grading fee. A black belt is something you are supposed to have for a long time so why shouldn't it be embroidered.



BY embroidered, I mean with the school's name and student's name.    When the $20 BB is embroidered with the school name, making it a $50 belt, the cost is passed along via the high testing cost.  If you are moving or changing schools, you then have to buy another belt.  I'd rather save the extra $30 for embroidering and have a plain $20 belt.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 14, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> BY embroidered, I mean with the school's name and student's name.    When the $20 BB is embroidered with the school name, making it a $50 belt, the cost is passed along via the high testing cost.  If you are moving or changing schools, you then have to buy another belt.  I'd rather save the extra $30 for embroidering and have a plain $20 belt.



Back in 1989 when I passed for my 1st Dan the belts were about $60 and my grading cost about $150. My original belt was stolen while I had stopped training at the school and was doing another art. Then when IO came back to my original school I was given a replacement belt at no charge. I have heard that some school in America was charging $1000 for a 1st Dan test. So it varies quite a bit. Unfortunately belts cost money and they have to be paid for somehow. Most black belts that I train with are quite happy to have their name on their belts because it is something that is theirs.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 14, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> BY embroidered, I mean with the school's name and student's name.    When the $20 BB is embroidered with the school name, making it a $50 belt, the cost is passed along via the high testing cost.  If you are moving or changing schools, you then have to buy another belt.  I'd rather save the extra $30 for embroidering and have a plain $20 belt.


Not automatically; the school could easily absorb the dealer cost for an embroidered belt, though after a 500.00 black belt test, I suspect that a mere 50.00 over a KKW registration fee (the total would be less than 150.00) would be considered reasonably.


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## Rumy73 (Aug 14, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not automatically; the school could easily absorb the dealer cost for an embroidered belt, though after a 500.00 black belt test, I suspect that a mere 50.00 over a KKW registration fee (the total would be less than 150.00) would be considered reasonably.



What is the real cost of kkw registration? In my area, they charge $80-$100.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 14, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> What is the real cost of kkw registration? In my area, they charge $80-$100.



For first dan, it was about eighty dollars.  While that info isn't recent, I seem to recall Puunui indicating that it was still rougly that.  A former school owner that I knew said that she went through USAT and it was 100, so it probably is 80-100 depending on what channel you go through.  I know that the KKW made stylistic changes to their certs and rolled out a school certification program about three years or so back, so prices may be different.  But I'd bet that a KKW first dan is still no more than one hundred.


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## dancingalone (Aug 22, 2013)

I just learned from a new student that one of my competitors charges $500 and some change to test for chodan.  This was enough of a hit financially to get him to switch schools even though he was mere months away from testing for BB there... Kinda odd since I charge $250 myself (don't charge at all for color belt tests) and you'd think the $250 difference shouldn't be too bad considering the big upheaval...  but there you go.

No point to my story other than just to share.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 22, 2013)

I wish I could visit the national association on a "test day" and just test without all the fuss and cost.  But that is not possible in Canada - I have to go through a school and pay $500-700 after tax.


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## WaterGal (Aug 29, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'm going to add to my previous statement that charging people to be on the demo team is another thing that I consider to be pure price gouging.  Even making them buy their own demo uniforms; as a business owner, these things can be deducted as business expenses.



While we don't charge for the demo team, other than to buy the uniform (and we went with a simple cheap one to save the students money), I do understand why people do.  

Putting on a demo at a large local event typically costs $200-300.  Plus you're working an extra 1-3 hours a week every week. It's a lot to do for free.  I think it's worth it, but others may not.


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## WaterGal (Aug 29, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The printing probably adds $15-20, and of course the cost is passed along.



To be real honest with you, the printing costs like $3, at least with the guys we use.  Shipping and sales tax are bigger costs.  Though we give them one for free anyway.



> 2) Mandatory tournaments.



Agreed.  Tournaments can be great and fun, but not everyone wants to do that.  Schools should have it be available but not required.



> Mandatory equipment purchase from the school, under the guise of ensuring the right equipment is purchased.  (You cannot purchase WTF-approved equipment from elswhere).



Eh... I think it depends.  If you're just taking classes, whatever, but if you're going to be doing demonstrations and tournaments to represent the school it's only right to have gear that has the school name on it.  That's the approach we take, and honestly, most of the students/parents don't know what they need and are happy to have us handle it for them for basically the same price as they'd pay on Century/Dynamics website.


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## WaterGal (Aug 29, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> Some of my money-maker pet peeves:
> 
> differentiating uniforms based on what program you're enrolled in - so people in the BBC might get to wear blue tops with their white pants, and those in the MC get to wear all blue, etc.  Meanwhile, if you're just a basic program loser, you have to stick with the all whites.  It's distasteful to me because I think the dojang/dojo should be a place where we are free from outside social distinctions and whatever personal respect or distinction we have should be earned through our deeds there rather than based on our money or our titles outside.



Yeah, I agree with this one.  Uniform means "one form".  The whole reason you have a uniform to make everybody look the same, to equalize everyone.  Letting people with a more expensive membership wear a special uniform is..... distasteful to me, and I think would just cause dissension and drama.

We have a "black belt program", but that's just our name for the longer-term membership (i.e. long enough for most people to get a black belt).  It's actually cheaper than the regular membership.  There's no special uniform, or patch, or any way for anyone to know.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 30, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> While we don't charge for the demo team, other than to buy the uniform (and we went with a simple cheap one to save the students money), I do understand why people do.
> 
> Putting on a demo at a large local event typically costs $200-300.  Plus you're working an extra 1-3 hours a week every week. It's a lot to do for free.  I think it's worth it, but others may not.


I respectfully disagree.  Demos are advertisement for your school.  Your students are essentially participating in an advertisement.  They're already paying to attend class and for the privilege to test.  Cost of demos and equipment for them should be part of the schools advertising budget and written off at tax time.  Not passed onto the students, who aside from pride and recognition, really don't get anything out of it.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 30, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> ... if you're going to be doing demonstrations and tournaments to represent the school it's only right to have gear that has the school name on it.



I was actually talking about buying standard equipment (i.e., without a school logo) from the school.  Having the school name on it is even worse in my opinion, as another school will be even less likely to allow the student to use their own equipment rather than buying it from the school.


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## WaterGal (Aug 30, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I respectfully disagree.  Demos are advertisement for your school.  Your students are essentially participating in an advertisement.  They're already paying to attend class and for the privilege to test.  Cost of demos and equipment for them should be part of the schools advertising budget and written off at tax time.  Not passed onto the students, who aside from pride and recognition, really don't get anything out of it.



Like I said, we don't charge for demo team.  I agree that it does help promote the school, so I feel like we can eat the cost.

But I disagree with on your last point.  Students _should _be getting something more out of demo team than pride and recognition.  I can't speak for other schools, but our demo/competition team gets special training above and beyond the other students. They spend 1-2 hours a week learning things like how to do back flips, break tiles, and flashier kicks (540, etc) than we usually do in regular class. They do extra cardio endurance training. And when demo season is over they get more intense sparring training so they can do competitions.

To be honest, that's one of the main reasons we do demo/competition team.  I think it's important to have a place for the more dedicated students to get more intense training and learn extracurricular material.  I think a lot of schools feel that people should have to pay extra money to get that extra value.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 30, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> Students _should _be getting something more out of demo team than pride and recognition.  I can't speak for other schools, but our demo/competition team gets special training above and beyond the other students. They spend 1-2 hours a week learning things like how to do back flips, break tiles, and flashier kicks (540, etc) than we usually do in regular class.


How do you bring new students into the demo team? I imagine you want the best to be on your demo team, so I am curious about the lower ranked students who can't put on as good of a demo.  Also, do the less athletic form part of the team, or is it only the best students?

If it's only the most athletic and impressive students, is it in a way like the Russian gulags - the strong who do good work get more food and continue to get stronger, while the weak who can't do as much get less food and stay weak?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 30, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> Like I said, we don't charge for demo team.  I agree that it does help promote the school, so I feel like we can eat the cost.


Understood, but I was specifically referring to schools who do charge.



WaterGal said:


> But I disagree with on your last point.  Students _should _be getting something more out of demo team than pride and recognition.  I can't speak for other schools, but our demo/competition team gets special training above and beyond the other students. They spend 1-2 hours a week learning things like how to do back flips, break tiles, and flashier kicks (540, etc) than we usually do in regular class. They do extra cardio endurance training. And when demo season is over they get more intense sparring training so they can do competitions.
> 
> To be honest, that's one of the main reasons we do demo/competition team.  I think it's important to have a place for the more dedicated students to get more intense training and learn extracurricular material.  I think a lot of schools feel that people should have to pay extra money to get that extra value.


A demo/competition team is really a competition team that also does demos.  Nothing wrong with that, but the idea that I should charge you for the privilege of doing all the hard work to make my school look good is an idea that I personally cannot embrace.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 30, 2013)

We have a really complicated, detailed, and rigid approach to the demo team.

We announce the demo. Whoever is available and interested in doing it shows up.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 31, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> What is the real cost of kkw registration? In my area, they charge $80-$100.



The current cost of Kukkiwon 1st Dan is US$70.  For interest the remaining fees are (2nd=US$90, 3rd=US$120, 4th=US$150, 5th=US$300, 6th=US$350, 7th=US$450, 8th=US$275, 9th=US$275). Yes, it's not a typo, the 8th and 9th Dan costs go down (I assume because you have to go to Korea to test for those, so they charge a little less in recognition that it will cost you extra to visit Korea for them).

Source: Grandmaster Kim, Joong-Young, President of Changmookwan, Vice-chairman of Kukkiwon High Dan Promotion Test Panel - 22nd August 2013


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 31, 2013)

Andy, do you know whether a foreigner can test in Korea for 1st dan by going to KKW at some designated time and paying the USD70 for a test?  There was a post maybe a year ago asking that, but I don't think it was ever answered conclusively, and you seem to be "in the know".


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## WaterGal (Sep 3, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> How do you bring new students into the demo team? I imagine you want the best to be on your demo team, so I am curious about the lower ranked students who can't put on as good of a demo.  Also, do the less athletic form part of the team, or is it only the best students?
> 
> If it's only the most athletic and impressive students, is it in a way like the Russian gulags - the strong who do good work get more food and continue to get stronger, while the weak who can't do as much get less food and stay weak?



We have open try-outs.  Anyone that can do all their forms correctly, break some boards, run two miles and show good attitude can be on the team.  Even if they're a yellow belt.  (I actually really like having lower belts on the team, because it shows both the students and the audience that they can learn cool things at our school even without studying for years.)  

More experienced or acrobatic/athletic people are obviously going to be able to do more at the demo, but everybody gets to do something, even if it's just breaking a few boards and doing Taegeuk 1.


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## WaterGal (Sep 3, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Understood, but I was specifically referring to schools who do charge.



Sure, and I was explaining why some other schools might decide to charge, because it involves a lot of extra work and money on the master's part.



> A demo/competition team is really a competition team that also does demos.



Not really, at least not with us.  People can choose to do competitions, demos, or both.  Competitions around here are mostly held when it's too cold to do demos, so we can focus on one or the other depending on the time of year.

ETA:  I actually prefer demos over competitions, because they teach cooperation and don't cost the students money.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 3, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> ETA:  I actually prefer demos over competitions, because they teach cooperation and don't cost the students money.



The two aren't really comparable.  For the student, demos are like a grading in that they require the student to perform at peak ability in front of others.  A demo can also allow for a student to show a measure of creativity.  I was asked to create my own form for a demo some time ago.  It was a lot of fun to do and it was a task that required me to take into consideration different elements of the art and make a coherent expression of the art.

Competition allows the students to test their skills in a tallent pool larger than that of their own school and generally require the student to be in top condition and to train particularly hard, generally harder than for demos precisely because of the competitive element.  

Demos and competitions are both of value to the student, but for different reasons.


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## andyjeffries (Sep 4, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Andy, do you know whether a foreigner can test in Korea for 1st dan by going to KKW at some designated time and paying the USD70 for a test?  There was a post maybe a year ago asking that, but I don't think it was ever answered conclusively, and you seem to be "in the know".



I'm due to speak to the Kukkiwon about another matter, but the guy I need to speak to isn't working today.  When I speak to him (hopefully later today or tomorrow) I'll ask him for you.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 4, 2013)

Thanks Andy.  I would guess that if it is possible, the test would be in Korean, so the challenge for non-Korean speakers would be to understand.  For instance, if I were told to in Korean to do a front leg roundhouse, all I would understand is the "roundhouse" part, and I'd do a rear-leg roundhouse.  If possible, I'd try to wait 1 second and see what one of the Koreans is doing!


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## Jaeimseu (Sep 4, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Thanks Andy.  I would guess that if it is possible, the test would be in Korean, so the challenge for non-Korean speakers would be to understand.  For instance, if I were told to in Korean to do a front leg roundhouse, all I would understand is the "roundhouse" part, and I'd do a rear-leg roundhouse.  If possible, I'd try to wait 1 second and see what one of the Koreans is doing!



The test is conducted in Korean, however there is a sign with a number for poomsae, and testers are usually in groups of 10 or a little more, so if you're unsure of a command then you can take a peek at the others around you.

The typical test consists of some basic movements, kicking combinations in the air(no targets), a couple of poomsae, and then one "round" of sparring (anywhere from 30-90 seconds).

Hopefully Andy can give a definitive answer, but I was under the impression that you needed 6 months residence to test at Kukkiwon.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2


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## andyjeffries (Sep 5, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> Hopefully Andy can give a definitive answer, but I was under the impression that you needed 6 months residence to test at Kukkiwon.



I just spoke to a friend at the Kukkiwon.  She said that only skip dans can be performed at Kukkiwon for less than 8th Dan.  So no non-resident foreigner could do a test at Kukkiwon for 1st Dan.  If they can get a 4th Dan or higher to recommend them for jump dan to 2nd Dan, they could do that.

I think there may be access methods if you go through (and have a good relationship with) your kwan, but aside from that it's a no go.


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## WaterGal (Sep 8, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The two aren't really comparable.  For the student, demos are like a grading in that they require the student to perform at peak ability in front of others.  A demo can also allow for a student to show a measure of creativity.  I was asked to create my own form for a demo some time ago.  It was a lot of fun to do and it was a task that required me to take into consideration different elements of the art and make a coherent expression of the art.
> 
> Competition allows the students to test their skills in a tallent pool larger than that of their own school and generally require the student to be in top condition and to train particularly hard, generally harder than for demos precisely because of the competitive element.
> 
> Demos and competitions are both of value to the student, but for different reasons.



I agree with that, but I mean with finite time and resources, I'd choose demos and training for them over competitions and training for that (even though logistically/organizationally demos are more work and expense for us).  I think, as the school and team grows, though, we'll have to see what people's preferences are and work with that.


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## WaterGal (Sep 8, 2013)

That's interesting.  Mr WaterGal was interested in doing his 5th at KKW, because it would be cool and all that, but GM dissuaded him on the grounds that being severely jet-lagged in an unfamiliar place where the test is entirely conducted in Korean might not lead to the best possible test performance.  He seemed to think it would be possible for him to arrange it, but like you say there might be access methods for a Korean grandmaster that others don't have.  Or he just might not know.


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## Koshiki (Sep 22, 2013)

Wow. My original schools BB testing fees are all in the $50-100 range... That said, it's not exactly an affluent area, fees haven't increased in the 13 years I've been there, and the Shihan is among the worst businessmen I have ever met...


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