# Gracie Fails Drug Test, Suspended



## PictonMA (Jun 14, 2007)

Um, wow.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news.asp?n_id=7908

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Thursday, June 14, 2007
 by Josh Gross (joshg@sherdog.com)

Mixed martial arts icon Royce Gracie (Pictures), best known as the slender gi-wearing Brazilian who twisted oversized competitors into knots during the early days of the Ultimate Fighting Championship, tested positive for traces of Nandrolone, a commonly used anabolic steroid, following his decision win over Kazushi Sakuraba (Pictures), June 2 in Los Angeles, the California State Athletic Commission revealed Thursday.  

Gracie (14-3-3) has been suspended from June 2, 2007 through May 30, 2008, and is fined $2,500, the maximum penalty by the CSAC. The 40-year-old member of the legendary fighting family has until July 13 to appeal the suspension to the CSAC. 

 Calls to Gracie's representatives were not immediately returned.


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## Grenadier (Jun 14, 2007)

Dang...  That's very disappointing, to say the least.  

Assuming that these positive tests are confirmed, I can only hope that the rest of the MMA world realizes, that even the legends have their flaws, and that this is something that everyone can learn from.


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## Ceicei (Jun 14, 2007)

Would this story throw into doubt the Gracie wins because of steroids?  I hope this doesn't encourage the thought that using steroids is the magic tonic to win matches or tear down the concept that technique can be as good as, if not better, than strength alone.

- Ceicei


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## MA-Caver (Jun 14, 2007)

This likely will have the same effect that finding out that professional ball players were using steroids to enhance their respective game(s). Now it will cast doubt not only on Gracie but upon all martial artists, especially exceptional ones who do feats that are sometimes considered magical because of the intense training they've put themselves through. 
Maybe they're not and I'd like to think that they never did... but I can't speak for everyone else. 
So what does this mean for (other) competitive martial artists? Drug testing? Gonna have to pee in a cup before you can get on the mat or in the ring? 

Lets hope it doesn't come to that.


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## ArmorOfGod (Jun 15, 2007)

Huh.
I didn't see that one coming.

AoG


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## D Dempsey (Jun 15, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> So what does this mean for (other) competitive martial artists? Drug testing? Gonna have to pee in a cup before you can get on the mat or in the ring?
> 
> Lets hope it doesn't come to that.



For professional fighter's this is already the case, as it's part of getting sanctioned in most states.  I doubt there would be any carry over to recreational / amateur martial arts and combat sports competitors.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 15, 2007)

Very dissapointing!


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## Odin (Jun 15, 2007)

I can only imagine the pressure of the revenge match against Saku got to him, after all it was not just himself Royce would have been fighting for and after fighting Hughes, he must of realised that he is not a young man anymore and the game has left him.

Poor guy.

I actually feel sorry for him.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 15, 2007)

Royce was an ectomorph (genetically long and skinny person) when he was young; things like that tend to exacerbate as we age into our 40's...easier to gain fat-weight because our metabolisms are aging, but harder still to gain muscle mass, because our genetics are contrary to it. One of my best buddies was a strength and conditioning coach for Royce before the first UFC ("Mick").

Mick had Royce on a 5 to 10 thousand calories per day diet, and hitting the weights in a split used by power-lifters to gain weight and strength for competitions (Mick himself being a heavy-weight kickboxer, and a 2 time powerlifting champ in California for his weight division...steroid free). After 6 months, Royce gained about 4 pounds; anybody else would have gained 15 to 30, or more, depending on their genetics. Royces body simply just did not want to hang on to the weight.

As we age, and less androgens (read: "man-making hormones") are floating through the bloodstream, it's easier to get injured, takes longer to heal, and we have to work about 4 times harder to make half the gains as when in our younger days. So, he would have had to eat 20 to 40 thousand calories a day (lotsa food, btw), work out that hard for 2 years (instead of 6 months), and would have gained a whopping 2 pounds. If he got hurt in training, it would set him back months, instead of weeks. And this with family honor, purses, and future fighting career on the line.

I'm not endorsing the use of steroids by older athletes, but I certainly get where the temptation would come in considering body-chemistry & genetics. And for the record, having seen his training regimen prior to the 1st UFC, he wasn't on the gear. He would have been much bigger if he were, and his stamina wouldn't have cashed out in fights such as his bout with Kimo Leopoldo. Additionally, as cortisol levels increase with the metabolism of exogenous testosterone ethers (roid use), there are tell-tale signs of inflammation over certain spots of the face and body. He did not have them during competition in the early days; several of his opponents, on the other hand, absolutely did.

To me, that only adds to his early accomplishments; detracts nothing. Guys on gear have substantial strength and stamina increases...and Royce beat them anyway.

Be good,

Dave


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## MA-Caver (Jun 16, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> As we age, and less androgens (read: "man-making hormones") are floating through the bloodstream, it's easier to get injured, takes longer to heal, and we have to work about 4 times harder to make half the gains as when in our younger days. So, he would have had to eat 20 to 40 thousand calories a day (lotsa food, btw), work out that hard for 2 years (instead of 6 months), and would have gained a whopping 2 pounds. If he got hurt in training, it would set him back months, instead of weeks. And this with family honor, purses, and future fighting career on the line.


How about simply accepting the fact that you're getting older and can't do the stuff that you used to. I mean I still go out and play with the younger guys (in caves, alright) but realize that I can't move like I used to and I have to go a bit slower than I used to go, that I can't climb up those 300 foot pits like I used to, still can but not as quickly and not quite as ready to go back down and do it again as soon as I get to the top.
Same thing with my Martial Arts. I can't do those nice spinning round-house kicks anymore, I can't stretch my legs (mainly because I haven't done it in years) high enough to tap someone on the forehead with my toe anymore. So I use something else but just as effective and easier for me to do. 
We get old, but honor remains and it's understanding that someone younger is going to be holding the title now. As for purses, should've squirreled some of that away huh? Career, train the next guy and take honor that he's winning because of your teachings.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 16, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> How about simply accepting the fact that you're getting older and can't do the stuff that you used to. I mean I still go out and play with the younger guys (in caves, alright) but realize that I can't move like I used to and I have to go a bit slower than I used to go, that I can't climb up those 300 foot pits like I used to, still can but not as quickly and not quite as ready to go back down and do it again as soon as I get to the top.
> Same thing with my Martial Arts. I can't do those nice spinning round-house kicks anymore, I can't stretch my legs (mainly because I haven't done it in years) high enough to tap someone on the forehead with my toe anymore. So I use something else but just as effective and easier for me to do.
> We get old, but honor remains and it's understanding that someone younger is going to be holding the title now. As for purses, should've squirreled some of that away huh? Career, train the next guy and take honor that he's winning because of your teachings.


 
I didn't say I condoned it; just understood the temptation. Age and treachery shouldoutta replace the athleticism of youth in MA, IMO. Not drugs.


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## tellner (Jun 16, 2007)

As one of the very good ones (Kendoka Steve Strauch) says:

"Sooner or later you lose your speed, you lose your strength and everybody learns your tricks. Then you find out if you're any damned good or not."

It's the unvarnished, 200 proof, raw gum unadulterated Word. 

Unfortunately, the body can only do so much. In the regular world where there are so many unpredictable factors and ways that a wise or at least clever man can change things to his advantage it isn't easy. Mifune-senseis are thin on the ground. That goes double (at least) for the extremely athletic highly focused world of gladiatorial competition. Randy Coture is noteworthy precisely because people like him are very rare combinations of skill, drive, and excellent genetics. If you've been dealt a hand that isn't quite as good it's going to be awfully difficult, especially at the very elite levels where tiny differences can mean victory or defeat.


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## zDom (Jun 18, 2007)

tellner said:


> As one of the very good ones (Kendoka Steve Strauch) says:
> 
> "Sooner or later you lose your speed, you lose your strength and everybody learns your tricks. Then you find out if you're any damned good or not."
> 
> It's the unvarnished, 200 proof, raw gum unadulterated Word.




I REALLY like that quote  Tried to rep ya but I'm presently tapped out.


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## Joe Divola (Jun 18, 2007)

How sad, I hope he never fights again, although I am sure he will somewhere where there isnt any testing


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## exile (Jun 18, 2007)

I have to say, I'm baffled by all of this... not.

I'm the world's poster-boy for ectormorphism. I started weight training when I was 50&#8212;10 years ago. So that makes me a lot older than Royce, eh? I wound up, by my calculations, adding 25 to 30 lbs of lean muscle mass over the past decade, learning enough focused force delivery to break three-board stacks (full 1" thickness) with a knifehand strike, and becoming faster now at 60 than I was as a competitive ski racher in my late 20s. Under ordinary circumstances, I wouldn't understand _any_ of this. Bloody hell&#8212;people in their 80s add substantial muscle mass from super-high-intensity weight-training routines! Sure, if you're in the elite class to begin with, it's harder to gain ground, but the nature of the improvement is different as well: if the second-best slalom skier in the world gains an average of just .1 of a second over a whole race in any given season, s/he will in all likelihood replace the current leader as World Cup circuit champion. That's no exaggeration, just a simple observation based on average finishing time differences between first and second place over a season or two of slalom championships. And I've no reason to believe things are any different in competitive MAs, or competitive anything-elses.

But it actually makes perfect sense if you add one assumption....

If RG was nailed for steroids, you can bet that the real reason he did it was not that things are oh-so-hard as you get older. The real reason is: the competition is doing it too. Mike Mentzer, the perennial runner-up in professional bodybuilding when Arnold S was the perennial winner, admitted to doing steroids late in his career because, as he said, he was tired of coming in second to guys who had way worse physiques and training routines but who were juicing like science projects year-round. The moral of Gracie's story, I suspect, is that a detailed look at the metabolic chemistry of the UFC guys would show just how common steroid use is there&#8212;enough so that a spectacularly talented guy like Gracie felt he couldn't win without following suit.

After the Tour de France cycling debâcle, the Bonds/McGwire/you-name-'em scandal in baseball and the long depressing history of steroid abuse in virtually every Olympic sport the East Germans ever competed in back in the day, is anyone really all that surprised at this development?


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## Sukerkin (Jun 18, 2007)

Right as ever, my friend ... and ... as ever ... the rep Gnomes say "No!" so you must suffer the embarassment of a public commendation .


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## Steel Tiger (Jun 18, 2007)

exile said:


> But it actually makes perfect sense if you add one assumption....
> 
> If RG was nailed for steroids, you can bet that the real reason he did it was not that things are oh-so-hard as you get older. The real reason is: the competition is doing it too. Mike Mentzer, the perennial runner-up in professional bodybuilding when Arnold S was the perennial winner, admitted to doing steroids late in his career because, as he said, he was tired of coming in second to guys who had way worse physiques and training routines but who were juicing like science projects year-round. The moral of Gracie's story, I suspect, is that a detailed look at the metabolic chemistry of the UFC guys would show just how common steroid use is thereenough so that a spectacularly talented guy like Gracie felt he couldn't win without following suit.
> 
> After the Tour de France cycling debâcle, the Bonds/McGwire/you-name-'em scandal in baseball and the long depressing history of steroid abuse in virtually every Olympic sport the East Germans ever competed in back in the day, is anyone really all that surprised at this development?


 
I'm not surprised at all by this.  There is clearly a 'Mentzer factor' involved in any competitive physical sport.  I think Exile is right is saying that Gracie's example just means the rest of the competition is probably seriously juiced.  There is an important factor in this and that is money.  This is a prize-fighting sport where to win is to earn more so its not surprising that competitors will go to extremes to get the winning edge.

Given the money involved and the popularity of the competition, it is inevitable that drug testing will come to be a significant factor.  How will it effect other MA competitions?  I don't think that testing will become mandatory across all MA competitions, but it is already a major factor of all Olympic MAs, and any that want to go in a high money professional way will have to take testing on board.


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## tellner (Jun 18, 2007)

Right as often, Exile. At that level even microscopic disadvantages are the difference between winning and losing. The competition's getting tougher as he's losing small bits of his physicality and the advantage that being the only grappler on the block had given him. So he added chemicals. 

Steroids and growth hormone are just the beginning. When genetic engineering kicks in MMA and other sports are going to get awfully strange.


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## exile (Jun 18, 2007)

tellner said:


> Right as often, Exile. At that level even microscopic disadvantages are the difference between winning and losing. The competition's getting tougher as he's losing small bits of his physicality and the advantage that being the only grappler on the block had given him. So he added chemicals.
> 
> Steroids and growth hormone are just the beginning. When genetic engineering kicks in MMA and other sports are going to get awfully strange.



This is something I've thought a lot about, because of the extremely troublesome ethical issue it raises. Suppose there is a way to rejigger the structure of certain chromosomes so that muscle recovery rates are significantly enhanced in individuals who undergo the treament. Because there's a large range in the normal spectrum of recovery times (it changes over time in individuals, diminishing with age, but also varies widely between individual practitioners: those with accelerated recovery tend to be amonst the top elite in any sport, because it gives them just that microscopic advantate), it's unlikely that any given test result could conclusively show an engineered effect in this physical property. So anyone who wants to ban the treatment would have to require, before the treatment becomes approved for use on human subjects, that all athletes in a given sport register their genetic profiles with the governing board in that sport, allowing later testing to reveal whether or not any given competitior underewent the proscribed treatment at a later date...

It's gonna get crazy, just as you say.


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## Steel Tiger (Jun 18, 2007)

exile said:


> This is something I've thought a lot about, because of the extremely troublesome ethical issue it raises. Suppose there is a way to rejigger the structure of certain chromosomes so that muscle recovery rates are significantly enhanced in individuals who undergo the treament. Because there's a large range in the normal spectrum of recovery times (it changes over time in individuals, diminishing with age, but also varies widely between individual practitioners: those with accelerated recovery tend to be amonst the top elite in any sport, because it gives them just that microscopic advantate), it's unlikely that any given test result could conclusively show an engineered effect in this physical property. So anyone who wants to ban the treatment would have to require, before the treatment becomes approved for use on human subjects, that all athletes in a given sport register their genetic profiles with the governing board in that sport, allowing later testing to reveal whether or not any given competitior underewent the proscribed treatment at a later date...
> 
> It's gonna get crazy, just as you say.


 
If it gets to this stage I can see 'professional' combat competitors being specifically engineered for the purpose.  Anyone looking to get involved through genetic retrofitting will be serious disadvantaged.  There might very well end up being a number of competition series determined by the genetic makeup of the competitors.

Its gonna get crazy might be putting it quite mildly.


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## Odin (Jun 20, 2007)

Joe Divola said:


> How sad, I hope he never fights again, although I am sure he will somewhere where there isnt any testing


 

To be fair this is not the only drug test he has done.....and he's been clean since then.

I realyl dont think it harms his legacy at all.


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## Odin (Jun 20, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> If it gets to this stage I can see 'professional' combat competitors being specifically engineered for the purpose. Anyone looking to get involved through genetic retrofitting will be serious disadvantaged. There might very well end up being a number of competition series determined by the genetic makeup of the competitors.
> 
> Its gonna get crazy might be putting it quite mildly.


 
I think we are all getting a wee bit other excited.

The nevada state are very strict on drugs, not all fighters are on them.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 21, 2007)

If the story is true, all I can say is-- very sad!


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## kaizasosei (Jun 21, 2007)

i do think that all drugs are not good and kindof a shameful thing...but i would rather know that a fighter was on some recreational drugs rather than steroids or hormones and the like.  it is kindof sad for me too although i am not the purest anymore, i have never ever even considered messing around with such things as steroids..also, i don't think that edge it gives is anything that special...i'm sure there are many weaknesses and negative sides.  

j


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 21, 2007)

Having been around athletes most of my life I can honestly say that in competition they are always generally looking for a way to improve and to win.  Inevitably now a days and even back in the day this has led to the decision of should I do steriods to improve my chances.  Do not fool yourself into thinking that any athlete has not considered or participated in such activity.  Personally out of the large majority of athletes that I know I can count on roughly two hands the number of athletes who did not take some type of performance enhancing steroid.  Add in the potential for massive amounts of money and the temptation is even greater.

Personally I wish Royce would not have succombed.  Having rolled with him and talked with him he is a really nice guy.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 21, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Personally out of the large majority of athletes that I know I can count on roughly two hands the number of athletes who did not take some type of performance enhancing steroid.


 
This brings into question the veracity and ultimate purpose of drug testing.  If so many people are on the gear and get by with it, why bother testing at all?  BTW - I read an article that stated that 1/4 or 1/2 high school althletes are using steriods.  I'll see if I can find it.


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## Ninjamom (Jun 21, 2007)

exile said:


> ......... is anyone really all that surprised at this development?


Ah, c'mon, Exile!!  You just told me that Santa Claus died!

Am I surprised at this development?  NO.
Am I saddened by it? Yes.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 21, 2007)

This saddens me.  I looked up to the guy.


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## AceHBK (Jun 24, 2007)

wow...wouldnt have seen this coming if Nostradamus told me himself


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## exile (Jun 24, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> If it gets to this stage I can see 'professional' combat competitors being specifically engineered for the purpose.  Anyone looking to get involved through genetic retrofitting will be serious disadvantaged.  There might very well end up being a number of competition series determined by the genetic makeup of the competitors.
> 
> Its gonna get crazy might be putting it quite mildly.





Odin said:


> I think we are all getting a wee bit other excited.
> 
> The nevada state are very strict on drugs, not all fighters are on them.



I think ST's speculations are probably only a decade or so from becoming realized, based on what I've read about the way that genetic fine-tuning is being ramped up to larger and larger organisms. So far as I know, there has never been any kind of structure that humans beings, once they understood, have not devised effective ways of altering to suit their specifications. It's not a matter of if, but when, as they say. And it will happen, simply because spectator sports are driven, ultimately, by the gate receipts, and people will pay to see more spectacular performances. How those performances came about, and the price that was paid, is of no concern to either the audience or the industry promoters, by and large. 

In response to Odin's post that we're getting to upset about this, I have to say that  I don't think anyone is getting distraught over this. The reason the issue is troubling is not just a matter of sport performance, however, but the whole vast ethical territory that wiring people for specific purposes raises, along the lines of ST's post. Anyone who's read James Blish's _The Seedling Stars_ has had a preview (from an astonishingly prescient writer) of what could lie up the linethere's a very good summary and overview of the book at 

http://www.sfsite.com/08b/ss110.htm

but the moral questions, and the impact on our own society, have only begun to open up...



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Having been around athletes most of my life I can honestly say that in competition they are always generally looking for a way to improve and to win.  Inevitably now a days and even back in the day this has led to the decision of should I do steriods to improve my chances.  Do not fool yourself into thinking that any athlete has not considered or participated in such activity.  Personally out of the large majority of athletes that I know I can count on roughly two hands the number of athletes who did not take some type of performance enhancing steroid.  Add in the potential for massive amounts of money and the temptation is even greater.
> 
> Personally I wish Royce would not have succombed.  Having rolled with him and talked with him he is a really nice guy.



Always, it seems, our heroic figures let us down in the end. The world of professional athletic competition becomes an increasingly bitter one as once-dominant athletes approach the end of their reign. And for those who don't have that status but still have to make a living in their sport, there may be little choice, practically speaking.



Ninjamom said:


> Ah, c'mon, Exile!!  You just told me that Santa Claus died!
> 
> Am I surprised at this development?  NO.
> Am I saddened by it? Yes.



That pretty much summarizes it, NJMM....


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## Marvin (Jun 24, 2007)

Do they test for steroid use in the NFL?


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## Odin (Jun 25, 2007)

The whole concept of fighters being ''wired'' for combat is a bit to sci-fi fantasy for my liking, im not going to say its not possiable since it has been so since the 50's but the main point of it will always be that governing bodies and even the sports fans just wouldnt allow it, you can see that just be reading the posts on this topic.

Also something people seem to get confused is that a fighter doesnt take steriods for the fight, he tends instead to take then to enhance his training for the fight, steriods do not increase ones skill or flexability or pain barrier...all they tend to do is increase muscle size. ( and some can increase aggresion levels, but wether that is a good thing is debate in its self)

I found this...its a wikipedia article on the substance that Gracie took.
The bit at the bottom is quite interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandrolone


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