# Bringing dishonor...



## Ronin74 (Mar 23, 2009)

I know we live in a more modern society, but as practitioners of the martial arts, is it possible to bring dishonor to ourselves in the way we use our arts or conduct ourselves in the martial arts community?

The reason I'm asking is because at one point, we were asked to "represent the art correctly", and ever since then, I always felt like I crossed a line that I shouldn't have. I also felt like our actions- even thought we acted on instructions from our teacher- somehow brought our integerity into question, especially those of us who were involved in a few of these incidents.


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## terryl965 (Mar 24, 2009)

We as Martial Artist need to hold ourself above the rest simply because we have been tought that since day one, on the other hand like so many professional society says otherwise. For me it is about not bringing shame upon my Master and the art.


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## Nomad (Mar 24, 2009)

Ronin74 said:


> I know we live in a more modern society, but as practitioners of the martial arts, is it possible to bring dishonor to ourselves in the way we use our arts or conduct ourselves in the martial arts community?
> 
> The reason I'm asking is because at one point, we were asked to "represent the art correctly", and ever since then, *I always felt like I crossed a line that I shouldn't have.* *I also felt like our actions*- even thought we acted on instructions from our teacher- *somehow brought our integerity into question*, especially those of us who were involved in a few of these incidents.


 
I think you've answered your own question.  It is up to the individual (and possibly any organization to which the individual chooses to belong) to determine where their integrity and honor lie.  If you feel like you've violated it, you probably have.

Honor is an interesting word, filled with different meanings and connotations to different people.  People have picked fights & duels in the name of "defending their honor", which if examined more closely, generally means defending their *face* and ego.  

To me, honor is something you hold inside you; no one can dishonor you, but you can easily give away your honor by acting in a manner that you know is wrong or unethical.

If you find that you have violated your code of honor or your integrity, then the next question becomes how do you react to this?  Can you make reparations?  If not, can you at least use this as a learning experience that helped define where you will choose to make a stand in the future?  You can't change the past, but you can let the lessons learn affect how you react to similar situations in the future.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 24, 2009)

We are human not superheroes of great gurus or mythical monks and like everyone else we make mistakes. You need to look at it, face it, live with it, learn from it and move on.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 24, 2009)

Ronin74 said:


> I know we live in a more modern society, but as practitioners of the martial arts, is it possible to bring dishonor to ourselves in the way we use our arts or conduct ourselves in the martial arts community?
> 
> The reason I'm asking is because at one point, we were asked to "represent the art correctly", and ever since then, I always felt like I crossed a line that I shouldn't have. I also felt like our actions- even thought we acted on instructions from our teacher- somehow brought our integerity into question, especially those of us who were involved in a few of these incidents.




I have my opinions.

Others have their opinions. 


I find it in poor taste when someone tries to tell me or someone else that I am not acting like a "-----------------". Instructor/Black Belt/Master/Guro/Martial Artist/etcetera. 


I train in FMA. We teach and learn how to break people with sticks. We train to cut people up and open with blades. We train to do as much damage as we can with our bodies. 

So, if I make a comment of, "If the bad guy has a gun and I have knife and I can get his knife off line I have no problems with doing "X" with my knife or empty hand". Yet many may find the act of violence over the top or unacceptable to their morals or values. But to me it was survival. 

So while they might think I have brought dishonor to the arts or myself, many times I believe they have brought dishonor to the human race for not wanting to survive. So, we have a disagreement of opinions. So be it. 

But as Terry has stated, if you are true to yourself and true to those who have taught you then you should not have any problems. 

Thanks


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## Ronin74 (Mar 24, 2009)

I think it would take some time for me to individually quote and thank everyone's responses so far, but I wanted to say I really appreciate the input.

Nomad, I am in total agreement with you that honor is something you have inside that nobody can take away, and it can only be given up by me. In my case, although I acted under the instructions of my teacher (yes, he told us to do this), I willingly- and blindly- gave it away to support our group's ego.

As far as learning from it and making reparations, I'm slowly but surely moving forward and away from it. I've learned that my next teacher's (still looking for a new place to train) views can't be my own. We may agree or disagree on several things, but in the end, I'm the only person who can judge the man in the mirror. In regards to making reparations, I've bumped into a few of the past members of the "opposing" parties, and it's all water under the bridge for them. Sadly, some of them had chosen to give up training, with this being one of the reasons.

Rich, it's interesting that you would respond, because I am/was a fellow FMA practitioner. I'm of the same mindset that we do what it takes to survive, so there's no disagreement with that.

I should mention though, that the things we did took place within the FMA community, and if you're familiar with how heated disagreements can get, even between groups of the same style, then you might even know of the incidents that took place. I was always partially ashamed, because our arts have so much to offer, but the bickering did nothing to unify the different groups, and unfortunately during that time we only helped to increase friction between groups that could've benefited each other had we not done those things.


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## grydth (Mar 24, 2009)

Whatever wrong you may have done is no business of mine. From your writings it appears you may have played a role in a divisive break up of a group. There are many who do that, but you are one of the first I have seen that feels remorse over it.

I can humbly suggest if you feel the need to atone, that you become a unifier. There are many more dividers than unifiers in my experience in the MA, so you might do a true service.


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## Ronin74 (Mar 24, 2009)

grydth said:


> Whatever wrong you may have done is no business of mine. From your writings it appears you may have played a role in a divisive break up of a group. There are many who do that, but you are one of the first I have seen that feels remorse over it.
> 
> I can humbly suggest if you feel the need to atone, that you become a unifier. There are many more dividers than unifiers in my experience in the MA, so you might do a true service.


It was more like our group created more dividers and strengthened existing ones, but you're right, I do feel remorse over it.

I have been trying to atone for it, and the steps I've taken have gone from me walking away from the group (miss the old gang sometimes, but their views aren't mine), all the way to me trying to figure out how my training and experiences could benefit others. In all honesty, I haven't tried to be a unifier in the arts just because the obstacles would be more than what I'd be able to handle. There have been times that, as a representative of our group, some positive act could be twisted into something else because of someone else's ulterior motives.

As far as trying to instill some sense of honor back in myself, I've chosen to follow my own route, but it's hard because I honestly don't know of anyone who's ever done it. After receiving some great advice from other MT members on different threads, I'm trying to pay homage to my previous instructors for the knowledge they've given me that helped benefit me. As a few members had put it, some of my previous teachers may have changed, and maybe not for the better. However, it doesn't diminish the value or effectiveness of the knowledge or techniques they've taught me.

Like I said, I'm not totally sure how to do this, but I'm trying to let my morals and ethics be a guide, and maybe somehow, shake off that shame of giving up my honor to help make a group's reputation sound better.


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## Carol (Mar 24, 2009)

At the same time, how much about (dis)honor did you learn from your own exploration and from your maturity in the arts, versus what your instructor taught you?

Martial arts instructors are very good at communicating their expectations for things like payment and how to dress when on the mat/floor.  Most are even good at teaching people how to kick, punch, and use weapons.  

But how many instructors take time to teach proper ettiquette, or how to conduct oneself in certain situations?   Some instructors do....but there are also some instructors that don't.

There are a few MA instructors out there that aren't saints, but they are good fighters.  It sounds like you realized you weren't in a great situation, so you distanced yourself from it.   Sometimes the most powerful action you can take is to vote with your feet.

As far as being a uniter...I don't necessarily think that fragmentation is necessarily bad or good for the arts.  It has its drawbacks, but it has its benefits too...including the benefit of instructors having the freedom to teach as they see fit, and the benefit of individuals being able to distance themselves from those that aren't a good fit for one's own path.  :asian:


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## Ronin74 (Mar 24, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> At the same time, how much about (dis)honor did you learn from your own exploration and from your maturity in the arts, versus what your instructor taught you?
> 
> Martial arts instructors are very good at communicating their expectations for things like payment and how to dress when on the mat/floor. Most are even good at teaching people how to kick, punch, and use weapons.
> 
> ...


Truth be told, I think I had to learn more about it on my own than through my past teachers. It's not to say that it was never discussed, but I'd be lying if I said it came up more than topic of techniques, paying dues or use of proper titles. I wish we discussed being on time... lol.

I agree that some division isn't necssarily a good or bad thing. If anything, it plays a great role in allowing some styles to branch off and evolve. And if they should come back together, there would be much to learn from each other. My feelings of dishonoring myself though, stem from the things we did. We could've just said, "let them do their thing, and we'll do ours." However, we blindly followed instructions to discredit and ruin the reputations of other instructors of the same style. In my eyes, I felt like I gave up my honor in hopes to gain my teacher's favor (and perhaps appease my teacher's arrogance.) And while I know most of the people involved in those moments had let it go, it always stuck in my mind that I skewed from a path I had set on for myself.

I know a big part of it is also forgiving myself, but a randomly recurring reminder is when I hear some of the people I was in league with commit themselves to that cause, despite the friction it continues to create. I'm glad I learned the art the way I did and have no regrets for having learned the skills. However, it was never my place to tell others that they were "doing it wrong" or "missing some techniques", but sadly I did.


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## Kacey (Mar 25, 2009)

"With great power comes great responsibility" - Stan Lee, in various _Spiderman_ comics and, of course, the movie.

If you were teaching someone to use a gun, you would teach them to use it responsibly - to use it only when it is needed, and not for spurious purposes - showing off, to intimidate, because the user can't be bothered to be careful, etc.  

Teaching martial arts is, in many ways, the same.  Martial arts instructors teach people how to injure, maim, and kill others using their own body parts - the only difference between that and teaching someone to use a gun is that the knowledge of martial arts will be with you all the time - while a gun can be put down, stored, etc., and may not always be accessible when needed.  Martial arts instructors, therefore, have a similar responsibility - to teach their students to use what they've learned only when it is needed, and not for spurious purposes - showing off, to intimidate, because the user can't be bothered to be careful, etc.  Many MA instructors choose to teach that lesson through the concept of honor, which can be presented in many ways.  After all, if I, as an instructor, cannot trust you to treat others respectfully (e.g., with honor, courtesy, however you want to phrase it), how can I expect you to treat the skills I teach you respectfully?  And if I cannot expect you to treat the skills I teach you respectfully, why would I teach them to you, and make myself responsible for your misuse of those skills?

Others will not agree - they will look at my analogy between guns and MA skills, and say that in either case, the instructor is responsible only for teaching skills - not for what the students do with those skills.  That's their choice; for myself, I choose to include ethical use of skills in my instruction - and I choose to do so the way I was taught, by expanding those ethical behaviors beyond the dojang and into the lives of those I teach.


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## Ronin74 (Mar 25, 2009)

Actually, that does make sense to me Kacey, and I would agree with you.

In retrospect, the sad part with most of my past martial arts teachers was that there wasn't a lot of emphasis on the ethics that go with martial arts. That doesn't mean I can pawn that responsibility off on them, but they did quite the job in teaching me otherwise. For example, while my mindset would've been to "do what it takes to survive" a self-defense situation (including taking an attacker's life, if need be), they tended to push the limits towards the use of lethal force.

As for the situation I originally posted about, it seemed like we couldn't leave well enough alone, and were sometimes taught (and expected) to more or less push our views onto others.


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