# Looking for knife fighting footage



## Franc0

I've spent the last couple of days searching the net for some footage of actual K2K encounters, with no luck yet. Though I've seen tons of great footage of real fights, police/security surveillance footage of some nasty attacks and the like, I've yet to find any footage of an actual knife fight.
Has anyone out there come across any?

Franco


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## MarkBarlow

A knife on knife fight is actually pretty rare.  Usually, the person who initiated the fight failed to inform the other party to come properly prepared.  

That touches on a another point...how realistic is the training that most schools offer regarding "knife fighting"?  I'm very pessimistic when it comes to any edged weapon attack and doubt the average martial artist has a concept of what is actually involved in a knife assault.


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## Rich Parsons

masterfinger said:


> I've spent the last couple of days searching the net for some footage of actual K2K encounters, with no luck yet. Though I've seen tons of great footage of real fights, police/security surveillance footage of some nasty attacks and the like, I've yet to find any footage of an actual knife fight.
> Has anyone out there come across any?
> 
> Franco


 

Having been in situations myself where I had a knife on me and have someone else pull a knife, I was always:

1) Unable to get to my knife as I was too busy defending.
2) I was able to get to my knife as they presented way to early and once faced with another armed opponent their intimidation did not work and they left.


It does not surprise me that there is little to no footage. Put the odds of having one combined with having a camera on it at the same time, and the probability goes down real low.


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## Brian R. VanCise

There are a couple of clips out there that I have viewed in the past.  However both Mark and Rich are right on in that in reality most of the time one person get's the knife out and the other person does not have a chance to access it.  Couple that with the fact that camera's are not everywhere and few have been caught.

I will look around for some clips.


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## jks9199

MarkBarlow said:


> A knife on knife fight is actually pretty rare.  Usually, the person who initiated the fight failed to inform the other party to come properly prepared.


I don't know so much that it's a failure on the one party's part so much as a deliberate omission...

For some odd reasons, lots of people who want to stick sharp things in other folks find that other folks aren't especially willing to participate.  Odd as that may be...  The intended "stickee" frequently, if advised ahead of time, does something just unconscionably rude like bringing a gun to a knife fight!


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## MarkBarlow

jks9199 said:


> For some odd reasons, lots of people who want to stick sharp things in other folks find that other folks aren't especially willing to participate.  Odd as that may be...  The intended "stickee" frequently, if advised ahead of time, does something just unconscionably rude like bringing a gun to a knife fight!



There's a statement I've heard repeated over and over by people who have actually been attacked with an edged weapon (I said it myself), "I didn't know I was in a knife fight until I felt the knife."  That's a huge hole to dig yourself out of and most people can't do it.  That's why knives are so popular as offensive weapons all over the world.  They work.

To be honest, I've always thought that the term _knife figh_t was misleading.  It gives the impression of two evenly matched combatants each using a knife.  In reality, if someone is the victim of a dedicated attack, he/she probably won't have the time or ability to bring their weapon into play.


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## doc D

Hello

I think timing is a key here. I carry a knife , being a Silat and Pekiti Tersia Kali man....so, all that needs to happen to potentially cause a knife vs . knife incident is for someone to show up with a knife and one of us ...I assume in this case, my attacker, has a knife out and (hopefully)mine comes out. When it comes out ( if it does) is a question of timing ....can I disengage with distance and get mine out? Can I get mine out fast enough to be ready for the attack before it is initiated? Do I have better options than my little tactical folder ? Do I , sensing something is amiss, go ahead and discretely deploy my knife, then find out this guy has one ? etc, etc...... Ideally ,Knife vs knife training should be more conceptual in nature . Really, it is more of : he has a short weapon vs I have empty hand or a short weapon as well. His hand could have a knife , box cutter, sharp pencil, bottle , tent post,screw driver , carpet cutter, etc and you have a knife or empty hand ( or a pen, ashtray, mag light). The routes of motion , ranging, footwork , body positioning , etc. you train through should all presume the knife is present regardless of if you see it or not. The hand manipulations , deflections , etc, should not be so vastly different from your empty hand vs, knife or empty hand vs empty hand work. Then ,"knife in hand "work merely addresses the unique considerations of that weapon bearing condition. Ultimately ,the drill trained needs to be transferrable to weapon vs empty hand and empty hand vs empty hand variants of combat situation. Since, knives have to be dealt with not necessarily with a knife in hand ....and the knife may , more often, be employed in other situations, a good knife program should not dwell exclusively on the actual "knife to knife" situation. Perhaps , the problem with a knife to knife focused program is it is a unique system being attached to another /other unique hand fighting system(s) and other weapon system(s) that all use different principals and movement patterns rather than having a core system that transfers to all combative situations. 

Knives are everywhere ,as are other potential weapons. Everyday, as workers visit my clinic or people disrobe to have a physical , I observe tactical folders ( as well as screw drivers, box cutters, etc....). Its not like knife and "knife like " weapons wielding people are few and far between. If one of them pulls out a knife , since I have one as well....we have all the ingredients for "knife to knife". I just have to get mine out....and that is hard to predict if it could or would happen. No one can say with certainty until after the fact.The question again is "timing" and also "situational pressure". If I would manage to get my knife out ...perhaps ,because he drew his to threaten more than attack, and I use that hesitation to get mine out....now we are starring at each other with knives in hand .....now the question may be in "will to fight" .

Knife on knife fights do happen. Consider that people do not fold and crumble from immediate shock when hit with a knife, so the notion that because you are hit, your knife won't come out is innaccurate. Perhaps ,what people find hard to imagine is two people with equal blades lining up on each other to "duel" as if they are in a Tae Kwon Do style sparring match with knives substituted for kicks and punches.There are a lot of possible scenarios. An "ambush " style attack ,of course ,leaves you way behind in time and your knife may very well never deploy, but the response patterns practiced with the knife in hand may still be able to come out if you realize what is happening AND your training has emphasized these responses to be valid with OR without weapon in hand. 

I think it would be hard to catch these sudden explosions of violence on video tape. I've seen the results of real world ( yes they do happen !!) knife on knife encounters in my ER. My first one was amusing . The young lady felt she was the "winner". She told me this as I was repairing a long laceration on her forearm.......and getting ready to repair her facial wounds. She told me her opponent , another young lady, had a pretty cheap knife ...when it hit her forehead the blade broke on the skull...she took that opportunity to seize her and drive her knife into that girl's abdomen.

The results are often not for the squeamish or faint of heart. 

With Respect,

Doc D


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## Cruentus

A knife is not a tool for dueling in our culture anymore. Part of fights in the real world is attempting to "one up" your opponent by trying to gain the unfair advantage. So, a knife encounter usually involves the knifer trying to get the knifee by surprise. And what we have found is that through our experience, once your engaged, you have to fight off the attacker with whatever you have IN YOUR HAND to buy time to pull another weapon. This means that you essentially have to fight empty handed (at least for the initial attack) if you are caught by surprise for most situations.

All this adds up to a lot fewer knife vs. knife encounters then some people think..


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## zDom

MarkBarlow said:


> "I didn't know I was in a knife fight until I felt the knife."



Ya, that is usually the case with someone who really wants to use a knife and has an inkling of how to use it.

At age 16, I took stupidity (or gross inexperience) in dealing with knives to a new level.

I KNEW he had a knife (switchblade) because he had brandished it once but then made a show of putting it away

(perhaps, in retrospect, because he figured it might be harder to bridge the gap and stab me once I saw him waving it around)

Then as I sat down in my car and prepared to drive off I soon discovered that he had redeployed the knife under his shirt, allowing him to hit me with an icepick-style stab as I started the car and drove off.


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## Trent

I agree with Mark Barlow and Doc D.  The vast majority of knife situations are knife attacks, not knife fights, and those attackers have no interest at all in engaging in a fight.  They wish to stab or slice repeatedly with no opposition.  If they think there may be a fight, they won't engage.  

I've been the victim of approximately four stabbings (Three ended up cutting my hands and forearms and one was an icepick that ended up in the upper part of my back over my lungs that just missed anything vital.) due to previous high risk occupations.  I've carried a knife since I was 7 years old and none of those times was I able to access my blade or other weapon during the incident as I was attacked from ambush and had to deal with the knife or icepick NOW which required immediate use of all of my appendages with extreme prejudice.  This was before any training in Kun Tao Silat or Cinco Teros Escrima as well, but I had trained in Muay Thai and an obscure family kung fu system along with some other arts.  I wish I knew then what I know now.  I'd have fewer scars.

If knife attackers see that you are aware of them at all times, or are armed, typically they won't even approach you.  Often, they will set up a distraction if they wish to stab you badly enough.  They don't want a fight; they want a victim.

In the past with many states (and some are still that way) it was a felony to carry a fixed blade knife concealed, but only a misdemeanor to carry a gun concealed.  There is a reason for that.  The mindset that it takes for someone to attack from ambush with a knife with the intent of doing lethal harm his a whole 'nother level than "point and shoot," not to mention the lack of the noise and attention getting that a firearm causes creating instant witnesses.  Knife attackers are sneaky by necessity due to the nature of the weapon (most know nothing of martial arts, or very little) requiring them to get close and risk retaliation.  Or if they are skilled, they will certainly avoid cameras and witnesses at all costs.

When I practice or teach knife techniques with others, one will usually start with the knife out and the other starts with the knife in the sheath or pocket-- put away. Sometimes both start empty-handed with weapons in pockets and sheaths. Often, we have one guy ambush another without warning during training and the other person doesn't even have a weapon.  It usually doesn't go well for the defender, but surprises do happen.


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## Trent

I forgot to add above, and for some reason don't see the edit feature right now, that knife fights between two knowing and willing participants do happen, but that is a rare thing.  In each instance that I've seen the results of a knife fight, both participants were sliced up pretty badly.


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## Franc0

I was personally involved in what I've been told by several people, was the most realistic "knife fight" I'll ever see. When I used to work in a bad neighborhood, I was walking back from a 7-11 when I was approached by what looked like a homeless guy. He pulled out a steak knife and told me to give him my wallet. I said "take it easy, lemme get my wallet for you", and I pulled out my Cold Steel Scimitar, which looked way more menacing than the other guys steak knife. I asked him "You sure you wanna try to take my wallet?" He took one look at my knife,  dropped his and ran away real fast. 

Franco


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## Trent

masterfinger said:


> I was personally involved in what I've been told by several people, was the most realistic "knife fight" I'll ever see. When I used to work in a bad neighborhood, I was walking back from a 7-11 when I was approached by what looked like a homeless guy. He pulled out a steak knife and told me to give him my wallet. I said "take it easy, lemme get my wallet for you", and I pulled out my Cold Steel Scimitar, which looked way more menacing than the other guys steak knife. I asked him "You sure you wanna try to take my wallet?" He took one look at my knife,  dropped his and ran away real fast.
> 
> Franco



Yep, that's most "knife fights" many folks never hear about.


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## Cruentus

Trent said:


> Yep, that's most "knife fights" many folks never hear about.



Unless, of course, you have seen the famous Crocodile Dundee #1.


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## jdp29

Study some AMOK! with Tom Sotis, and you will notice that "accessing" is a topic covered early and in depth.  While you are trying to deploy your weapon, you are in serious danger if you cannot position yourself to safety for that second or two your need to draw your own weapon.  The blade is no good if it is in your pocket.


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## hafoc

Trent said:


> Yep, that's most "knife fights" many folks never hear about.


  Yeah, did one of those myself.


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## sgtmac_46

Rich Parsons said:


> Having been in situations myself where I had a knife on me and have someone else pull a knife, I was always:
> 
> 1) Unable to get to my knife as I was too busy defending.
> 2) I was able to get to my knife as they presented way to early and once faced with another armed opponent their intimidation did not work and they left.
> 
> 
> It does not surprise me that there is little to no footage. Put the odds of having one combined with having a camera on it at the same time, and the probability goes down real low.



That doesn't surprise me.......I suspect it's pretty rare the man who will INTENTIONALLY face another man, blade to blade.......attack an unarmed man, yes.......attack another man on equal ground, NO!

It would be my humble guess that it is EXACTLY as you point out....

1) Unable to retrieve blade due to surprise attack.....

2) Retrieved blade deters attack as the potential attacker now perceives even ground and retreats.......

The second scenario does illustrate the benefit of being armed.........the presence of the weapon (and the will to use it) deterring further aggression.


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## sgtmac_46

jks9199 said:


> I don't know so much that it's a failure on the one party's part so much as a deliberate omission...
> 
> For some odd reasons, lots of people who want to stick sharp things in other folks find that other folks aren't especially willing to participate.  Odd as that may be...  The intended "stickee" frequently, if advised ahead of time, does something just unconscionably rude like bringing a gun to a knife fight!



True, if advised ahead of time.........typically the successful knifer is the master of concealing his intent and his weapon until ready to deploy.


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## sgtmac_46

Trent said:


> I forgot to add above, and for some reason don't see the edit feature right now, that knife fights between two knowing and willing participants do happen, but that is a rare thing.  In each instance that I've seen the results of a knife fight, both participants were sliced up pretty badly.



I'm familiar with a couple of those myself.......usually involving drugs and alcohol and two (or more) knuckleheads with more bravado than sense........with the result of both going to the hospital for surgery and dozens of stitches (or worse).


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## sgtmac_46

masterfinger said:


> I was personally involved in what I've been told by several people, was the most realistic "knife fight" I'll ever see. When I used to work in a bad neighborhood, I was walking back from a 7-11 when I was approached by what looked like a homeless guy. He pulled out a steak knife and told me to give him my wallet. I said "take it easy, lemme get my wallet for you", and I pulled out my Cold Steel Scimitar, which looked way more menacing than the other guys steak knife. I asked him "You sure you wanna try to take my wallet?" He took one look at my knife,  dropped his and ran away real fast.
> 
> Franco



That deterrent effect that seems to be the case in most instances where TWO blades are deployed.


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## sgtmac_46

Here's a good video involving some knife (and gun and bludgeon) use.


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## BLACK LION

Violence is about the unfair advantage which is completely devoid of a deuling nature...    many very good points have been made here about the practicality and im-practicality of knife encounters...  most often they are felt not seen and also often perceived as a punch by the receiver.   Most often a knifing is executed by ambush... there are times when a knife is brandished or reached for... I have yet to meet someone that sees my 9" fixed blade on my hip and has an urge to pull and duel... they more than likely dont want to get cut or stabbed and will gladly pick someone whom they can control and manipulate...     If I do encounter a blade, I dont train to try and pull and engage... I engage with my body first and if time and space warrants I pull and continue...


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## sgtmac_46

BLACK LION said:


> Violence is about the unfair advantage which is completely devoid of a deuling nature...    many very good points have been made here about the practicality and im-practicality of knife encounters...  most often they are felt not seen and also often perceived as a punch by the receiver.   Most often a knifing is executed by ambush... there are times when a knife is brandished or reached for... I have yet to meet someone that sees my 9" fixed blade on my hip and has an urge to pull and duel... they more than likely dont want to get cut or stabbed and will gladly pick someone whom they can control and manipulate...     If I do encounter a blade, I dont train to try and pull and engage... I engage with my body first and if time and space warrants I pull and continue...




Undetected movement for total surprise on the enemy.......speed, surprise and violence of action.

The successful knifer is an ambush predator.......and ambush predators don't fight even battles.


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## Rich Parsons

sgtmac_46 said:


> Undetected movement for total surprise on the enemy.......speed, surprise and violence of action.
> 
> The successful knifer is an ambush predator.......and ambush predators don't fight even battles.


 
The times I have been cut/stabbed it came as a surprise attack and in many cases they hit and were back into the crowd while I was wondering why my leg where I got hit was now wet.


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## Franc0

I started this thread 12/07. With all of the street fight vids, video'd assaults, cell phone recorded sucker punches & ***** slaps etc. seen on youtube and the like, there still isn't one video or surveillance tape showing one single knife 2 knife encounter?!? 
Enquiring minds want to know, why do YOU think this is so?
In my personal encounter, there just happened to be no cameras where my "non-encounter" happened.

Franco


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## sgtmac_46

masterfinger said:


> I started this thread 12/07. With all of the street fight vids, video'd assaults, cell phone recorded sucker punches & ***** slaps etc. seen on youtube and the like, there still isn't one video or surveillance tape showing one single knife 2 knife encounter?!?
> Enquiring minds want to know, why do YOU think this is so?
> In my personal encounter, there just happened to be no cameras where my "non-encounter" happened.
> 
> Franco



I think it's because, as I noted, most modern knifers are ambush predators.......and the presence of a knife in the hand of a would-be victim who is prepared, deters such attack as the element of surprise is now gone.

That hasn't always been the case.......'dueling' in earlier times not only occurred, it was actually quite common.  The recorded encounters of such American luminaries as Jim Bowie seem historically accurate enough.

Dueling, however, isn't en vogue in the modern street.......ambush and group encounters seems to be the current fashion.


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## lklawson

masterfinger said:


> I started this thread 12/07. With all of the street fight vids, video'd assaults, cell phone recorded sucker punches & ***** slaps etc. seen on youtube and the like, there still isn't one video or surveillance tape showing one single knife 2 knife encounter?!?
> Enquiring minds want to know, why do YOU think this is so?
> In my personal encounter, there just happened to be no cameras where my "non-encounter" happened.
> 
> Franco


I am aware of one.  The gist of it is: Low quality vid., 4 participants, all deployed knives, three against one.  The one guy managed to fend off the attacks but not without getting hit with thrusts, tripping on a curb, and getting kicked in the nuts.  The knife hits appear to be in a non-critical area.

For some reason the participants weren't insanely stupid and were unwilling to close range to deliver thrusts and cuts except in rapid in-and-out attacks which minimized contact.  The three attackers attempted to surround and attack from odd angles while the defender's attention was elsewhere.  The defender kept in continuous movement and  attempted to use terrain and local obstacles (cars, etc.) to protect his back and limit his opponent's access to him.

Even when he gets kicked and trips, his knife prevents his opponents from swarming him.

I'm currently in a net-nannied environment so I can't test the link to see if it still is valid, but here is what I had before.  Hope it works:

http://www.putfile.com/sz332

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

lklawson said:


> I'm currently in a net-nannied environment so I can't test the link to see if it still is valid, but here is what I had before.  Hope it works:
> 
> http://www.putfile.com/sz332


Ah fooey.

Apparently that link doesn't dredge up the vid. anymore.  I'll see if I can suss it out elsewhere.

Sorry.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## BLACK LION

prison and gang activity reshaped the face of urban conflict....   Veeeerrrry good posts  SGT


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## lklawson

BLACK LION said:


> prison and gang activity reshaped the face of urban conflict....   Veeeerrrry good posts  SGT


"Put 'em Down, Take 'em Out." is, even yet today, still considered one of the "must reads" of modern knife fighting.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## sgtmac_46

lklawson said:


> "Put 'em Down, Take 'em Out." is, even yet today, still considered one of the "must reads" of modern knife fighting.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



It's out of print but one can (and I did) find a complete copy online.


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## Eazy

Quench on this- Its all i could find for now. 2 fighters 2 knives. 

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/980533/

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html Here's a good site to look at as well

This ones crazy-
http://www.fightauthority.com/street-fights/knife-attack-myths/
Note in these vids The first fight flick how much distance is gained very quick with big sweeping swings of the knife and very fast. They do not show alot off these type of attacks in the training ive seen on  youtube flicks. 
That ive made my personal concerns on another knife thread here.


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## Eazy

Watch this JOCIC 6 Dan AKIDO JU JUTSU Knife deffence Pro job excellent footage style and music 
http://www.livevideo.com/video/A6433231DDA7480CB43E556118DDFD2B/real-aikido-knife-fighting.aspx
I personally think that knife attack skills (Not defence) should only be for those who have showed a life comitment to True Martial Arts and have at least a black belt that shows that comitment These are People that have proven respect for the Martial arts and can be more trusted not to miss use it.


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