# MA used by marines/army/secret service?



## the_kicking_fiend (Mar 4, 2004)

Hey,

I was just wondering if anyone knew what martial arts the different military services of the world are using for close quarters unarmed combat?  I would be especially interested if anyone knew what the secret service may be using?

d


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## loki09789 (Mar 4, 2004)

Check out the Marine Corps Martial art thread.


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## ShaolinWolf (Mar 4, 2004)

I remember reading something about president Nixon(1972 or 1974...can't remember when this happened.) letting the wushu team from china come over and demonstrate stuff on the whitehouse steps. Jet Li was in that group when he was pretty young and he was the best then. The President even offered him a job for being his body guard. LOL. Anyways, I heard it was long after that they had some MA experts come in and teach MA to the Army. OF course they made their own style. But I don't quite know what kind of MA they used at the beginning. Can't remember what I read about that.


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## loki09789 (Mar 4, 2004)

I don't know about pre-WWII too much, but the images of bayonet training and empty hand from that time frame look like the Fairbarne/Applegate stuff.

WWII and after the general term was combat judo along with others.  THe modern Defendo sytem that is headquartered out of Canada is the evolution of Defendu which is a military hand to hand system in effect for a while.  SCARS system is another current military based hand to hand.  Gracie JJ is popular in Army boot camp, from what I have seen on documentaries as well.  

The old USMC LINE system had an ecclectic feel with some Kenpo and even a TKD flavor in some of the kick deliveries

Secret Service and FBI type of hand to hand would probably be fairly similiar to the general police defensive tactics training.  In LEO training it is really more about force continuums than about specific techniques.


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## kenpo12 (Mar 4, 2004)

the_kicking_fiend said:
			
		

> Hey,
> 
> I was just wondering if anyone knew what martial arts the different military services of the world are using for close quarters unarmed combat?  I would be especially interested if anyone knew what the secret service may be using?
> 
> d



The Marines now have their own system which is a hybrid of Boxing, karate, jiu jitsu, wrestling, etc.  Most other organizations have something similar but it varies from organization to organization and it also depends on the instructor.


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## KenpoTex (Mar 5, 2004)

As the others have said the Marines have their own hybrid system called "U.S.M.C. Martial Arts Program."  I'm not too familiar with the Army's systems, however I recently read that Mr. Mike Pick has designed a system known as American Kenpo Combatives that he is now teaching to the Special Forces (Green Berets).  The government agencies (F.B.I., Secret Service, Customs etc.) Use a lot of stuff derived from Aikido and Hapkido due to the locks and control applications found in those systems since their role is closer to that of a police officer rather than a soldier-in other words, their goal is to control/subdue rather than to kill.


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## OULobo (Mar 5, 2004)

I met a few retired Army SF guys (Green Berets) at a bar and I was trying to see what kind of stuff the gov. gave them to learn. They said that they were too busy trying to qualify, and that they didn't get to actually do any MA training and the HtoH/primitive wep. stuff at Bragg that was mandatory was minimal and very basic. One made a comment that the training was based more on survival, playing hide and seek, native interaction and firearms, not much close quarters stuff. Most militaries distill the less used stuff out fairly quickly for efficiency sake, and I don't think these guys get into a lot of HtoH or closequarters in the field. I'd imagine the rest of the Spec Ops. groups are no different.


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## Mormegil (Mar 5, 2004)

I heard (or read) somewhere that the BJJ in army training is primarily for confidence building, as you can train and make someone submit without doing any permanent damage.

My Sifu had mentioned it's probably not a good idea to use groundfighting in a team situation, as for every enemy soldier being taken down, you have one friendly soldier going down too (to take him down).


He also mentioned that some SEAL teams like Silat, since it can be used to imbalance an opponent while your holding your MP5 (shoving and hitting with the forearms, hips and legs are pretty common in Silat).


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## OULobo (Mar 8, 2004)

Mormegil said:
			
		

> I heard (or read) somewhere that the BJJ in army training is primarily for confidence building, as you can train and make someone submit without doing any permanent damage.
> 
> My Sifu had mentioned it's probably not a good idea to use groundfighting in a team situation, as for every enemy soldier being taken down, you have one friendly soldier going down too (to take him down).
> 
> ...



That makes sense, plus a lot of Silat styles use every "dirty" trick in the book and quite a few others too. I totally agree with the BJJ thing. Many combat instructors scream and yell of you take longer than 8 seconds to get a submit on the ground. Not to mention that BJJ is a little bit harder to use when there are othere opponents around and everyone has weapons, like in open ground warfare.


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## KennethKu (Mar 8, 2004)

> I remember reading something about president Nixon(1972 or 1974...can't remember when this happened.) letting the wushu team from china come over and demonstrate stuff on the whitehouse steps. Jet Li was in that group when he was pretty young and he was the best then. The President even offered him a job for being his body guard....



That is BS.  The Secret Service protects the PROTUS and the First family.  Like hell they would hire a commy foreign teenager for security details. Simply cannot be true.  Back in those days when the Yili folks were around, this would be loughed out of town.


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## Nicolas (Mar 9, 2004)

From what i´ve seen in the military they don´t bother to teach much about fighting empty handed. When you are carrying all the equipment it´s hard to play Bruce Lee. But i know many militars that actually do MA but they train by themselves. Nevertheless in a real combat situation it´s better to have a gun, you don´t want to go and punch your enemy.


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## Seig (Mar 9, 2004)

Admin NotePlease keep the discussion polite and respectfull.

Seig
MT Admin Team


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## Nightingale (Mar 10, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> That is BS.  The Secret Service protects the PROTUS and the First family.  Like hell they would hire a commy foreign teenager for security details. Simply cannot be true.  Back in those days when the Yili folks were around, this would be loughed out of town.



It is true... Nixon did say it, but he wasn't serious at the time. Jet Li was just a kid.  Here's the text from several articles:



> Eleven-year-old Li Lian Jie, winner of the Chinese national championship in the acrobatic martial art wushu, traveled to Washington, D.C., where he met then-president Richard Nixon. "When you grow up," Nixon asked the young boy, "do you want to become my bodyguard?" Li replied, "No, I don't want to protect one person, I want to protect billions of Chinese people." Instead of defending his countrymen, Li Lian Jie went on to entertain them - under the screen name Jet Li.





> As Jet remembers, President Richard Nixon stood with one of his female teammates, and Jet stood next to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. At one point, Nixon turned towards him and said, "Young man, your kung fu is very impressive! How about being our bodyguard when you grow up?"
> "No, " Jet blurted out. "I don't want to protect any individual. When I grow up, I want to defend my one billion Chinese countrymen!"
> People were stunned. There was an uncomfortable silence. Nobody had expected him to give that kind of an answer-least of all Jet. Kissinger was the one who finally broke the silence. "Heavens, such a young boy and he already speaks like a diplomat!" It wasn't until a few days later, when they were wrapping up their visit in the States with a dinner at the embassy that somebody showed them that their visit to the White House had made the New York Times, complete with picture and headline. The article described the entire exchange, and went on to wonder what kind of educational methods they were using in Red China if even the youngest representatives were trained to reply with such nationalist fervor.



oh, and Nixon was a POTUS, not a PROTUS.


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## Matt Bernius (Mar 10, 2004)

Mormegil said:
			
		

> I heard (or read) somewhere that the BJJ in army training is primarily for confidence building, as you can train and make someone submit without doing any permanent damage.



Exactly the case. The modern military uses hand to hand work simply to train confidence for the average enlistee. The technique taught are typically very, very basic. And they should be. These folks are training for armed combat. Very few soldiers will get into a close quarter system.

More specialized forces will learn more advanced techniques. But this Material is all focused around specific tasks (like Sentry removal). As for specific arts, it often depends on what resources specific commanders want to bring in. For example, the US Marine Force Recon unit in the Phillipines has trained with Tuhon Gaje and the Pekiti Tersia Kali camp. But that doesn't necessarily mean that all of the Marines train in Kali.

Typically, the military has the budget to, and does, bring in instructors from the  Martial Arts "flavor of the month" (no offense meant by this). During the boom in the mid 90's BJJ was brought in. Currently Tony Blauer and other RBSD folks have been doing work for Club Fed.

- Matt


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## Tony (Mar 10, 2004)

I know in my classes we have had people who were in the armed forces come to study Kung Fu! I happen to know that there is a class at the local Army barracks! But I don't know if it is taught differently to soldiers. I think we all learn the same. One thought thought though, what if an experienced Martial artist were to have a fight with a trained soldier who had learned some hand to hand combat? who would win. The trained soldier has learned specific techniques to eliminate enemy targets when he has to do so quietly and even to escape with his life! For that purpose he would have been trained extensively for reality, whereas a Martial Artist is not necessary going to war but consider Martial Arts and Military life are not that dissimilar! Both teach respect and we show this with a bow in Martial Arts and a  salute in the Armed forces. Both teach discipline but you can stop going to class whenever you want. However in the Army you are there until the duration.
Look at Taekwondo which is a system based on the military, founded by General Choi Hong hi. The classes I have seen seem very regimented. You have to line up in order of rank and bow to your instructor, who you call sir or master. Taekwondo is the national sport of Korea as well as what the Korean Army are taught. But the heads of state have bodyguards trained in Hapkido as it is a complete system, with all the techniques of Taekwondo, as well as locks and holds of Aikido and throws from jujitsu and also weapons!


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## arnisador (Mar 10, 2004)

Yes, confidence and aggression training are the principal reason for hand-to-hand training in the militray. The same is true of the pugil stick and, some argue, even the bayonet in this day and age.


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## psi_radar (Mar 10, 2004)

If you're also looking at other countries' military systems, there's Krav Maga from Israel and my favorite, Systema, which is used by the Russian Spetsnaz troops. 

Take note that the different branches you mentioned have very different missions. Bodyguarding duties, such as the Secret Service performs, involves much different tactics than all out battlefield combat. In that situation, your first goal is to protect your principle, then take out the threat if your comrades haven't already. Systema deals with bodyguarding issues as well as combat survival. I don't want to sound like an advertisement, but you may want to check out Vladimir Vasiliev's (the north american master of Systema) video on bodyguarding if you're interested in that kind of work. Pretty interesting stuff.


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## KennethKu (Mar 11, 2004)

Forgive me for getting off topic here.  It is painfully obvious that Nixon was making nothing more than pointless idle chit-chat with his quests. It is patently absurd to entertain the notion that the Secret Service would employ the service of a communist teenager to work security details for the POTUS and the First family.  

This is my last post on this topic.


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