# what makes it kenpo?



## twinkletoes (May 31, 2003)

This is an OPINION question:

What is it that makes kenpo what it is?  

What can be changed without losing "the kenpo" in it?

Could you.......

....change or remove all the katas?

....change or remove all the techniques?

....change or remove some of the techniques?

....change the way basic strikes, stances, etc. are done?

....not make reference to the same principles?

....call it something else?

and would it still be Kenpo?  

This is an actual question, not forum weirdness.  I want to know what people think defines kenpo opposed to other systems.  

If someone had a system that was based on drills instead of techniques, would it be kenpo?

If someone had a system in which the basic moves were done differently, would it still be kenpo?

If you changed the name but taught the same material the same way, that seems obviously to still be kenpo.......



Thoughts?


Best,

~Chris


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## KenpoDragon (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *This is an OPINION question:*


* Every question on this forum is a matter of opinion.




			What is it that makes kenpo what it is?
		
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 EVERYTHING in the ORIGINAL system. 




			What can be changed without losing "the kenpo" in it?

Could you.......

....change or remove all the katas?
		
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Why would you want to do that???




			....change or remove all the techniques?
		
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I seriously hope your joking!!!




			....change or remove some of the techniques?
		
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 Why would you want to do a thing like that???




			....change the way basic strikes, stances, etc. are done?
		
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 There are only a set number of basic moves-all else are variations of the same. Quoted from 3rd Brown Belt sayings.




			....not make reference to the same principles?
		
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 The "principles" are what the system is based off of.




			....call it something else?
		
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 I think that has been done quite enough already.




			and would it still be Kenpo?
		
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 In my opinion NO!!!  




			This is an actual question, not forum weirdness.  I want to know what people think defines kenpo opposed to other systems.
		
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 Simply put, the effectiveness of "our" system. 




			If someone had a system that was based on drills instead of techniques, would it be kenpo?
		
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                 Nope.




			If someone had a system in which the basic moves were done differently, would it still be kenpo?
		
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                      Nope.




			If you changed the name but taught the same material the same way, that seems obviously to still be kenpo.......
		
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 This is true, but SO many people see fit to alter this or alter that, just so they can call it "their" system. If you changed everything then it wouldn't be Kenpo, it would be whatever you decided to call it. Here in lies the difference between sticking to what works in general for everyone, and sticking to what works only for you. In Kenpo we are taught to learn the "base" techniques and alter if necessary what we need to, to make it work for us. Unfortunately when some teachers do this, they decide to stick with what worked best for them and teach that, not the true "base" techniques, but their version of them. This is the problem that occurs, not everyone is equal in height, weight, or strength, speed, flexibility,etc.etc. Altering a technique should be done on an "individual" basis, not a mass basis. This of course is "only" my opinion on the matter, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

:yinyang: :asian:*


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## Blindside (May 31, 2003)

Hmmm, someone better notify Professor Chow that what he did wasn't kenpo since he didn't have the principles, techniques, forms, and arguably not even the same basics.  Yet Mr. Parker decided to call what he created "kenpo."

Lamont


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## kenpochip (May 31, 2003)

I'll throw this out there.
I've had conversations about similar topics.
(Such as how much of a human body can you replace with artificial parts and still have a human?) 


For Kenpo, I think you can change techniques and forms as long as the principles and concepts are covered.   
If the students end up moving like students in the "original" kenpo, then it is still kenpo, perhaps should even be considered the same or "pretty much the same" kenpo.

What one would have done under this scenario is to 
create a new teaching method for the same subject (kenpo).
Some people get attached to the teaching method and consider that to be inseparable from the subject.   Most things can be improved, so getting too attached to a teaching methodology might keep one from trying something better.


Now, if you substantially change all or most of the basics,  you might still have kenpo, but it would definitely deserve to be distinguished by some other name.  It wouldn't really be the SAME kenpo.  It might be super-Kenpo or new-improved Kenpo with a Golden Drop of Rich creamy nougat.  Ah.. .. Nougat


KenpoChip


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## ProfessorKenpo (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *This is an OPINION question:
> 
> What is it that makes kenpo what it is?
> ...



From the voice of experience it sounds as if you want to create  your own system of particular aspects of the 15 arts you've studied.    You're 23 and started at 6 which leaves 17 years of martial arts study, and the fact that you've attained a degree in philosophy, which eats up a substantial amount of time.        What exactly are you looking for?   Are you looking for recomendations to create a hybrid art?   It would help if you made your intentions a little less vague.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Kenpomachine (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *What is it that makes kenpo what it is?  *



The way it makes us move, leaving room to personal interpretations as well.



> What can be changed without losing "the kenpo" in it?



It seems that the way the curriculum is set. There's chinese kenpo, Tracy's kenpo, EPAK, etc, and they're all kenpo.



> Could you.......
> ....change or remove all the katas?



No, it has been said before that they're the compendium of kenpo.



> ....change or remove all the techniques?



Not all, but some of them. You said you are Tracy, right? There are less techniques in EPAK, and it's still kenpo  And there's people in EPAK that teach the extensions and people that don't.



> ....change or remove some of the techniques?



See above, and also read about Doc Chapél, Paul Mills and Skip Hancock just to name a few.



> ....change the way basic strikes, stances, etc. are done?



NO



> ....not make reference to the same principles?



As in motion kenpo vs sublevel-4? But I may be wrong here, as I don't know that much about SL-4



> ....call it something else?


It's been already done: AKKI, Kenpo 2000, SubLevel-4, chinese kenpo, Tracy's kenpo, EPAK...



> and would it still be Kenpo?


If you're true to the system, I think so. But that's only my opinion.

An FWIW, in my school sets are not taught as part of the program and we have less than 16 techniques per belt. And it's still kenpo 



> This is an actual question, not forum weirdness.  I want to know what people think defines kenpo opposed to other systems.



Its philosophy as an american martial art among other things.



> If someone had a system that was based on drills instead of techniques, would it be kenpo?


No, you still need the techniques to learn self defense. But there are many drills that can be done with them.



> If someone had a system in which the basic moves were done differently, would it still be kenpo?


I don't think so.



> If you changed the name but taught the same material the same way, that seems obviously to still be kenpo.......



Yes, so it seems.

Ok, it seems like one has to explore more than one kenpo branch before trying to answer in a convincing way what is kenpo  

Good luck in your search!!


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## twinkletoes (Jun 1, 2003)

ProfessorKenpo-

Actually, it's just the opposite.  I have NO intention of starting "my own" anything, except for a studio.  I want to change the way I train, because in my experiences I have found more efficient and effective methods than the first ones I learned.  The question is, when I take out all the tech's and katas and maybe more, and add tons of other stuff, what am I teaching? (If it has a name)

~Chris


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *ProfessorKenpo-
> 
> Actually, it's just the opposite.  I have NO intention of starting "my own" anything, except for a studio.  I want to change the way I train, because in my experiences I have found more efficient and effective methods than the first ones I learned.  The question is, when I take out all the tech's and katas and maybe more, and add tons of other stuff, what am I teaching? (If it has a name)
> ...




Have you really found more efficient methods?   I used to think the same way in my youth.     After many years with a good instructor I saw the error of my ways.     You should really get to know your art more before condemning it though it sounds as if you are more suited to the JKD philosophy, if so, attain skills there and call it anything you  like.   

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## twinkletoes (Jun 1, 2003)

ProfessorKenpo,

I have tried to choose my words carefully so as not to sound like I am condemning my art, because I don't feel that I am.  I like kenpo!  I haven't said anything bad about it!  I just want to change the way I train my students!

I said that in my experience (and I don't mean to say that it will be the same for others, whose experiences will be different) I have found more efficient/effective measures.  This means that I have taught students many different ways (I have) for many years (also true) and that I have observed methods that work better than others, when it comes to developing a certain skill set.  

To give it numbers (since you already have), I will make it more concrete.  I am 23, and have studied kenpo since 1988.  This august will mark my 15th year in the art.  I became an assistant instructor at age 11 (blue belt), joined the paid staff at 14 (brown belt), became a black belt at 16, and earned a 3rd degree black belt 2 years ago this September.  I have been learning to teach for the last 12 years.  I have studied 15 other arts, and have senior ranks in some of them.  So I have a decent well of experiences to draw from (I'm no expert, but not many people are).  

Now, I am not looking to 1) change the skillset or 2) tell others that they should do things the way that I am.  But I have found ways that I personally can more quickly and more effectively develop the target skillset in my students.  From my experiences, this is the way that I am most comfortable teaching.  

So what I am asking, really, is how much can we change the training approach, yield the same results, and call it the same thing?  

~Chris


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *ProfessorKenpo,
> 
> I have tried to choose my words carefully so as not to sound like I am condemning my art, because I don't feel that I am.  I like kenpo!  I haven't said anything bad about it!  I just want to change the way I train my students!
> ...



You have 15 years in the martial arts in 15 different arts and have achieved senior ranks in that time, along with a degree in philosophy, do the math.     As I said before, I used to think the same way, until I saw the crystal for what it was, a diamond, not just a rock.     I see guys like you all the time and I have to wonder if it's because you're not getting the instruction you need to really interpret the art, or there's a larger agenda at work.   If you don't like it, change it by all means.     If you think you have a better way, then do so.    Your students will tell the tale later in their training if you've done something wrong or right.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> 
> 
> In my opinion NO!!!  .
> ...


Well, KenpoDragon I can just see you consulting you r encyclopedia on this one; however, it's all Kenpo no matter what changes one makes. When skin kisses skin...


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## twinkletoes (Jun 1, 2003)

I think I'm a little troubled by lines like "I see guys like you all the time and I have to wonder if it's because you're not getting the instruction you need to really interpret the art, or there's a larger agenda at work."  

I'm not trying to start trouble!  Also, my instructor was tops!  (He is now retired and I have limited access to him).  He is in the top 2 most functional martial artists I know!  (Too close to call)

My problem is this (I am speaking personally about my training environment--yours may not correspond on all points.  If it doesn't, try to see why the differences might give me a certain perspective):

We teach a number of techniques and patterns and forms.  

The tech's etc. are prearranged (with numerous variations)

We do not expect that if our students got into a real fight they would use a curriculum technique move for move (because of the dynamic and chaotic environment of an actual situation).

We use the techniques as examples and say "these are just samples of how it *could* go.  Use them as an idea, until you can spontaneously act using appropriate measures." 

We spar using *very* limited rules:  limited targets & tools, no weapons, no grappling, etc.

After 15 years of using techniques and katas I am just NOW reaching a point where spontaneous action is appropriate, speedy, powerful, etc. to the point where I am confident it could be effective.   



Now again, these are the circumstances that I find myself in--your training experience may be different.  Perhaps your school does much more grappling, or weapons sparring, or spontanaeity drills than mine.  But this is the environment that has given me this perspective.  

Now, if our goal is to teach effective improvisation, why not teach something like this:

-introduce skills (teach the basic, just the way you do now)

-drill the basics in specific and alive ways to foster attributes, especially timing, positioning, and improvisation.

-increase the nature of the drills so as to become more realistic (while maintaining safety, of course) so that improvisation branches out

-spar (safely) with a growing number of allowed tools and situations, including allowing clinching, striking in the clinch, takedowns, grappling, etc.  occaisionally introduce weapons, multiple attackers, etc.


This kind of training environment teaches improvisation through application of good technique in a variety of situations, without the use of prearranged techniques and katas.  Normally, it is considered a JKD Concepts approach (or SBG, if you want to be really specific).  

Students who I have begun using this method with (as early as their first class) have shown tremendous improvement over others.  They respond more quickly, and more appropriately on a consistent basis, even at white belt.  They are still working on the same MOVES and doing them the same WAY as the other students, and the other instructors are teaching them the same way as their classmates.  They are still Kenpo students.

It seems to me that I am teaching them Kenpo the JKD way.  Does that seem right to anyone else?  I am allowing them to freely learn and experiment in an alive fashion, while still introducing and developing the moves of kenpo karate.  Now, I have only introduced maybe 75% of what I've listed above:  I have not yet introduced many students to weapon sparring, or sparring that includes both striking and grappling.  Also, multiple opponent sparring has been extremely limited.  However, it is working, and working well.  They are developing skills more quickly than the other students at the school.  

Again, I am not saying that this is the method everyone should follow.  However, it is a method that (for me) is showing vast advantages over other methods.  So is it Kenpo the JKD way?  I think that might be an appropriate way of thinking about it.  Would I call it that?  Never.  It's Kenpo in my book, until the basic moves / concepts undergo radical change.  

Best,

~Chris


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## KenpoDragon (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Well, KenpoDragon I can just see you consulting you r encyclopedia on this one; however, it's all Kenpo no matter what changes one makes. When skin kisses skin... *


 Awwww....is little Touch"o"Death mad because I embarrassed him in another thread???? Go cry to your momma boy. Just because you don't have a friggin clue about what your talking about, doesn't mean the rest of us don't!!!!


:wah:  :lol:


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *I think I'm a little troubled by lines like "I see guys like you all the time and I have to wonder if it's because you're not getting the instruction you need to really interpret the art, or there's a larger agenda at work."
> 
> I'm not trying to start trouble!  Also, my instructor was tops!  (He is now retired and I have limited access to him).  He is in the top 2 most functional martial artists I know!  (Too close to call)
> ...



Don't be troubled, I'm just playing devil's advocate.  I'm assuming you're Tracy Kenpo and not American.   If that is the case, I would suggest you take a look at our curriculum and you might possibly feel differently.   Most that are with Tracy Kenpo are happy but personally I feel it lacks alot of the techno thinking I'm used to, not that it's a bad thing, I like to use the brains instead of brawn.   Mind you I'm a big guy and could probably make anything work if I had the mind to, you know, mind over matter, if you don't mind, it don't matter.   Good luck in your edeavors.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *Awwww....is little Touch"o"Death mad because I embarrassed him in another thread???? Go cry to your momma boy. Just because you don't have a friggin clue about what your talking about, doesn't mean the rest of us don't!!!!
> 
> 
> :wah:  :lol: *



DUDE, you really need to chill a bit, please.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Kirk (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *DUDE, you really need to chill a bit, please.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...




Oh **** .. now I've seen everything


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Oh **** .. now I've seen everything  *



I  don't get that bad Kirk, I usually don't resort to telling someone to go cry to momma, not yet anyway. LOL

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Klondike93 (Jun 1, 2003)

twinkletoes - I've been reading how you still like kenpo and all that but when I visited the web site you have in your signature there's no mention of it. All I could find on it was in your bio but no where else. Lots of mention about BJJ, Krav Maga and Modern Arnis, but where's the kenpo curriculum at? 

I don't have an answer for you, but I thought I would ask where's the kenpo?



:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Jun 1, 2003)

I do not mean to slam you twinkletoes.  I rarely feel the need to feel superior ... well at least to try to prove my superiority or the superiority of my Art ... *Cuz I Ain't.* 

I have been around way to long to feel comfortable with your "changing Kenpo" per se.  Method of teaching, hopefully, is what you are referring to.  Your years in Kenpo, while worthy of respect, have to be tempered by the fact that at 11years old, or 14, or 17 or 21 you cannot understand or necessarily absorb the lessons that were being taught at the time.  Now, you can revisit them and, contingent on your subjective recall, re-analyze, evaluate, and prioritize your lessons.  I really encourage you to sit down and do this.  

I am specifically thinking about my own epiphanies over the years.  OK, so I got black, then I got another black (in Kenpo this time, circa 1986 under the Steven LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Gary Swan, Brian Duffy lineage.)   Then after meeting Dennis Conatser, Ed Parker, Howard Silva, Bob Liles, etc.  I get to start all over again and learn it all anew.  Maybe I am being somewhat pushy here, but you have to understand that there is so much to learn in your own Art, it staggers the mind, literally!  There are layers and layers and layers of Kenpo.  You can take it as far as you want to ... or not.  But don't blame Kenpo for the limitations you chose to place on it.

It is OK if you want to do BJJ or JKD.  I have both at my school ... but they are different Arts.  I have more than I can handle being in John Sepulveda's organization, under Tommy Burks, with friends like Dennis Conatser who help me challenge my own Journey regularly.  A true mark that you have attained wisdom (and maturity) is when you realize how much you don't know.  In this case I am specifically addressing Kenpo.  Heck, I have been at it since 1979, 24 years now, with a decade of other martial arts prior to that, and I am still opening my eyes and mind in amazement whenever I have a lesson with John Sepulveda, Dennis Conatser, or my teacher.

You are a 3rd in an Art that takes a lifetime to evaluate, dissect, re-evaluate, and learn to apply.  Maybe you need to look at it from another perspective, or spend some time with some of the other Seniors in the Art, they all have a different perspective on material that came from the same source ... Ed Parker.

Good Luck and Good Hunting.
:asian:


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## Kirk (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *I  don't get that bad Kirk, I usually don't resort to telling someone to go cry to momma, not yet anyway. LOL
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



I know .. but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to give you a hard
time  :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *Awwww....is little Touch"o"Death mad because I embarrassed him in another thread???? Go cry to your momma boy. Just because you don't have a friggin clue about what your talking about, doesn't mean the rest of us don't!!!!
> 
> 
> :wah:  :lol: *


Listen KenpoDragon, I didn't realiize I was addressing a twelve year old but just remember its not our job to make sure you take your meds so get it on a schedule. I see you think your way of doing Kenpo is the one and only way of doing things, and you wonder how people talking in different languages understand eachother, but not all of us are blessed with your naivette'. There is a great big scary world out there that you know nothing about; I'm not asking you to look. Just realize its there.


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## Steve Howard (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *I think I'm a little troubled by lines like "I see guys like you all the time and I have to wonder if it's because you're not getting the instruction you need to really interpret the art, or there's a larger agenda at work."
> 
> I'm not trying to start trouble!  Also, my instructor was tops!  (He is now retired and I have limited access to him).  He is in the top 2 most functional martial artists I know!  (Too close to call)
> ...



Chris,
  I'm glad to hear that you still call it kenpo.  The fact is, you should.  The training methods you are using aren't exclusive to JKD or BJJ and they certainly aren't new to kenpo.  My own system lineage has utilized similar training methods for over 30 years.  And you need to consider an important possibility--that the reason your students progress more quickly isn't because you have SUBSTITUTED certain training methods, but because you have SUPPLIMENTED their training methods.  If you were to remove the rest of the kenpo curriculum training methods from your students' program, you would likely see an actual decrease in thieir skills.  Why?  Because one set of methods teaches the student how to move correctly, while the other set of methods teaches them how to move appropriately.  
   So, be careful about "eliminating" the "traditional" kenpo training methods.  Too many people have already tried to reinvent the wheel to find out it worked better before they started tampering with it.  However, I would certainly continue your training in the manner you have been doing; the two training methods naturally complement and support each other.  This is why so many other kenpo instructors already train this way.

Best wishes for your continued success.

Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com


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## Steve Howard (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I do not mean to slam you twinkletoes.  I rarely feel the need to feel superior ... well at least to try to prove my superiority or the superiority of my Art ... Cuz I Ain't.
> 
> I have been around way to long to feel comfortable with your "changing Kenpo" per se.  Method of teaching, hopefully, is what you are referring to.  Your years in Kenpo, while worthy of respect, have to be tempered by the fact that at 11years old, or 14, or 17 or 21 you cannot understand or necessarily absorb the lessons that were being taught at the time.  Now, you can revisit them and, contingent on your subjective recall, re-analyze, evaluate, and prioritize your lessons.  I really encourage you to sit down and do this.
> ...



Michael,
an excellent post with sound advice.  I myself often refer to kenpo as an "onion" whose layers are only exposed through dedication and experience.  I also agree that too many people try to "change" kenpo before truly understanding it (something I make no claim to doing, please understand).  It is also one of the reasons people feel the need to "cross-train" in other systems.  Unfortunately, oftentimes, what they have gone to other systems to seek was always present in kenpo to begin with.  That is not to say that cross-training is bad--when done for the right reasons and with the right perspective.  It can be a great way to gain new perspectives and insights in the art and to increase knowledge in specific aspects of combat.  But again, it takes a fairly mature martial artist (another thing I am not claiming to be) to know where, when and how to apply cross-training effectively.
That being said, so long as the "traditional" (for lack of a better word) kenpo training methods are not de-emphasized or abandoned there can be a lot of gain in introducing certain "alive" training methods.  My own lineage has utilized such supplimental methods for the past 30 years, to great effect.  As my own instructor used to say, "if you find something of value, add it--but never throw any of the KENPO away."

Salute,

Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com


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## KenpoDragon (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *DUDE, you really need to chill a bit, please.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...


 Out of respect for you Mr.O'briant, I will chill. I do apologize for my actions, but honestly, it was "self-defense". Touch"o"Death attacked me first.

:asian: KenpoDragon


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## Billy Lear (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *it's all Kenpo no matter what changes one makes.*



I strongly disagree. If the basics are changed and the fundamentals are different then it isn't Kenpo anymore. There is a point that things cease to have a relationship. Why just the other day I was talking to my cousin 20 times removed about this very thing, and... well, I hope you get the point. :shrug:

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *Out of respect for you Mr.O'briant, I will chill. I do apologize for my actions, but honestly, it was "self-defense". Touch"o"Death attacked me first.
> 
> :asian: KenpoDragon *



Thanks, and I can appreciate your passion for what we do, I'm the same way (I need meds too I guess LOL) but have learned a little more temperance with these forums over the last few months so I know how you feel.     Shoot me an email sometime to exchange phone #'s, you're in LA so maybe sometime we can get together to share some of that passion, and don't call me Mr. or Sir, it's Clyde, I like my name, it reflects a long line of good genes and heritage.  

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## twinkletoes (Jun 2, 2003)

Klondike93 - 

My website used to list Kenpo.  After a couple of people asked me about it, I started to realize that I wouldn't be satisfied teaching the curriculum in the same manner I had been taught.  I took it off the site until I could reach a decision about what it was that I felt needed changing.  I have not yet reached a decision (hence this thread).  

Michael Billings - 

Thanks for the encouragement.  I don't take it as a slam.  And if you'll read my earlier posts carefully, I have taken pains to be clear that I am only changing the training methods, not the methods of application.  

I completely understand that I do not know the whole of my art.  I am very aware that there is much left to learn.  However, I am losing my desire to learn more things, because the teaching method through which I am learning is so outdated and inefficient.  You said yourself "You are a 3rd in an Art that takes a lifetime to evaluate, dissect, re-evaluate, and learn to apply."  I am looking to teach my students so that they will learn to apply in less than a lifetime  (I know I'm twisting your quote a little, but I feel it's more accurate in my circumstances than you might realize).

Steve Howard - 

Thanks to you for your encouragement.  I don't aim to reinvent the wheel--only to reach the same destination faster.  I recognize the distinction you make about substitution vs. supplementation:  you will just have to take my word that it is working the way I described.  I strongly agree with the words you've written.  

Best,

~Chris


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *I strongly disagree. If the basics are changed and the fundamentals are different then it isn't Kenpo anymore. There is a point that things cease to have a relationship.
> Billy Lear, UKS :asian: *


When does it stop being kenpo? As long as the moves are logical its Kenpo. kenpo differs from boxing because the strikes are limmited to thrusts and the rules allow for a few stance variations. It is then Kenpo with said restrictions. The names of the kenpo techs have no bearing on you as a fighter. Tae kwon do fighters kick and punch; the good ones use point of origin, stabilize there base, create distance, get off the line of attack, ect.
what is not kenpo about a good fighter in any style. 
You've been drinking a mighty tall bottle of cough syrup if you think you are privy to secret stuff that the rest of the world doesn't know. Ed parker put it into simple terms he taught and thought at different levels based on who he was dealing with. The krav Maga style of fighting is Kenpo through a different filter; its a little less complex but maybe kenpo is taught at to high a level. Maybe we push the lower belts to fill in the dead space before they have solid stance and striking skills. Lets face it some of the techs are ,at best, unusefull. I say a kenpoist is a competent fighter, not a person that has memorized the terms and techs of an encylclopedia of kenpo. Sometimes its just physical verbage, when a simple and direct plan will do.


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## twinkletoes (Jun 2, 2003)

Well said!


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## Billy Lear (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *The krav Maga style of fighting is Kenpo through a different filter; its a little less complex but maybe kenpo is taught at to high a level. Maybe we push the lower belts to fill in the dead space before they have solid stance and striking skills. Lets face it some of the techs are ,at best, unusefull. I say a kenpoist is a competent fighter, not a person that has memorized the terms and techs of an encylclopedia of kenpo. Sometimes its just physical verbage, when a simple and direct plan will do. *



So if I use your method of reasoning here... A Volkswagon is a BMW, only a little less complex. Not that they could both simply be cars. I guess Volkswagons just aren't good enough to have their own identity anymore... we'll just call 'em not so good BMWs.

I still disagree. I feel that Logic can be found in many Martial Systems and that it is arrogant to call everything Kenpo.

I disagree with you about the techniques. I feel that they are all useful. 

I haven't memorized all of the terms from the Kenpo books, but I can navigate them just fine. I wonder... does that make me a bad Kenpoist?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 2, 2003)

Wow, I missed a lot by not checking in this weekend...

Let me say a few things:

1)  Kenpo is more than just Ed Parker's American Kenpo.  Kenpo includes all of the children of EPAK:  Tracy's, offshoots of Tracy's, offshoots of EPAL.  Kenpo includes all of the children of William Chow:  Kara-Ho, CHA-3, Kajukenbo, Shaolin Kenpo, Shaolin Kempo, and too many more to list.

Only EPAK and its descendants use the principals, vocabulary, forms and techniques of EPAK.  Others such as Tracy's may be very similar.  Most are quite disimilar.  It was a real eye opener to attend a seminar taught by Grand Master Ralph Castro several years ago.  His system is awesome, it is Kenpo, but it is totally different from EPAK in terms of content, vocabulary, and in many of the principals.   

I think that Twinkletoes may have had a hidden agenda here (and not a bad one) by asking how we can change Kenpo.  But I'd like to go back to the thread topic and ask everyone to answer "what is Kenpo" -- while keeping in mind that Kenpo is more than just EPAK.

2)  I think we aught to be ashamed of ourselves attacking Twinkletoes seniority just because he is 23.  So he is not as old and fat as some of the Kenpo masters.  He has been doing this since he was a kid so much of his understanding and movement will be more native than many of ours.  Also, he is smart enough to seek more, explore more, and add more.  

It is a great fallacy within Kenpo and many traditional martial arts to equate age with mastery.  Sure, you know more when you do something for 30 years than when you do it for 15.  But, how much more really?  If you are doing the same material you learned in the first 10 years, are you spending the next 20 years learning 20 years more material or are you just repeating the first 10 years over and over again?  I am not suggesting that most of us who are continuing Kenpo for 20 or 30 years are not learning and growing.  But I would suggest that someone who has accomplished a Black Belt in Kenpo and has exposed himself to several other arts is not just repeating his first few years of training but is truly on a path to supplement and continue learning.  

3) This talk about peeling back the onion is silly.  Sure, you can peel all the layers off the onion.  What do you get when you are done?  Onion slices.  It still looks like onion, smells like onion, tastes like Onion.  How many slices do you have to peel before determining that you know as much as you need to know about an onion and how it tastes?  At some point, you don't learn any more by peeling more layers off the onion.    At some point you need to go and find some other seasonings to throw in the soup.  Even onion soup has more than just onion to flavor it.

I could go on and on...but I'll save it for later posts.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> I disagree with you about the techniques. I feel that they are all useful.
> [/B][/QUOTE
> Oh, that is rich. So all the techniques Ed parker through out of his system are usefull? was he just making some bad descisions? What does the word usefull mean to you?
> ...


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## Billy Lear (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


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## Michael Billings (Jun 2, 2003)

... Mr. Sepulveda's people block different.   That is the most ridiculous statement I have read ... being I just returned from a camp where over 30 of his Black Belts were there.  I am former UKS / IKKA and the blocks looked and felt the same to me.  Geez guys, gimme a break.  If you hold up an example, make sure it is either correct or that one of his Black Belts is not a regular MartialTalk poster and reading it.  

It looks a little silly, and I feel stupid correcting you on a public forum.  The last time I did it I received a private apology, but none on the forum in which the criticism was made.  So I tend to let people say and believe what they want.  But the Prof does not read this forum and can't correct this perception himself ... ergo my post.

Don't assume what he shows in a seminar or elsewhere is the limit of what he does or teaches.

Left over Right


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## Billy Lear (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *... Mr. Sepulveda's people block different.   That is the most ridiculous statement I have read ... being I just returned from a camp where over 30 of his Black Belts were there.  I am former UKS / IKKA and the blocks looked and felt the same to me.  Geez guys, gimme a break.  If you hold up an example, make sure it is either correct or that one of his Black Belts is not a regular MartialTalk poster and reading it.
> 
> It looks a little silly, and I feel stupid correcting you on a public forum.  The last time I did it I received a private apology, but none on the forum in which the criticism was made.  So I tend to let people say and believe what they want.  But the Prof does not read this forum and can't correct this perception himself ... ergo my post.
> ...



Mr. Billings,

I think he was giving a hypothetical example... I don't think John Sepulveda is doing things differently... I was only responding to his (Possibly hypothetical) example.

Your friend always,
Billy Lear, UKS


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *... Mr. Sepulveda's people block different.   That is the most ridiculous statement I have read *


Whoa!, come down off the Empire State building there King Kong. I said Those guys have an inward blocking method that is different from my own. That is not a rediculous statement or an opinion; it is a fact. Since you havent seen the comparrison you are defending somthing you are not fully comprehending. My question is that should one be termed Kenpo and the other be called somthing else?  

Billy Lear,
fist law sounds like a martial art to me. If it isnt, what about fist law that is destinctive from the word martial art?


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## rmcrobertson (Jun 2, 2003)

Why don't you just look up the blocks in Mr. Parker's, "Infinite Insights," or Larry Tatum's reissued, "Confidence: A Child's First Weapon?" Then you'll know, and you won't have to rely on generalizations....


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## Elfan (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *....change or remove all the katas?*


Yep.



> ....change or remove some of the techniques?


Yep.



> ....change or remove all the techniques?


Yep.



> ....change the way basic strikes, stances, etc. are done?


You could change the way you taught or thought about them but the "basics" reflect the principles upon which kenpo is based.


> ....not make reference to the same principles?


Well I supose if you could somehow teach the principles without making refernce to them then I supose.  But why would you want to do that?  Logical application of the principles of motion and self defense IS kenpo.


> ....call it something else?


Sure.  I think I'll call it Elfan-Ryu Ninja Karate.



> If someone had a system that was based on drills instead of techniques, would it be kenpo?


No, kenpo isn't based on techniques OR drills.


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## Matt (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *This is an OPINION question:
> 
> What is it that makes kenpo what it is?
> ...


They weren't really there at the beginning any way, why not.


> *
> ....change or remove all the techniques?*


There is only a little bit of overlap between your kenpo and my kempo as far as specific techniques go


> *
> ....change or remove some of the techniques?*


That's happened countless times already, although not nearly often enough in the 'remove' department. In my lineage, everybody had to put their 2 cents (and then some) in.


> *
> ....change the way basic strikes, stances, etc. are done?*


Now this starts to affect its kenpo-ness. 


> *
> ....not make reference to the same principles?*


That depends. The principles exist, we all just seem to have different terms for them. If you start ditching the principles, however, it ceases to be kempo/kenpo. 


> *
> ....call it something else?
> 
> and would it still be Kenpo?
> ...



Kata were not emphasized in the early versions (Mitose, Chow), 'Tricks' were. Hard training, strong fundamentals, tough people. 

As the material has proliferated, kenpo has become infested with 'collectors'. I feel that a system with hundreds of techniques is suitable for someone with no imagination, creativity, or ambition to train in a chaotic environment similar to combat. Techniques should be examples of principles. 

Matt


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Why don't you just look up the blocks in Mr. Parker's, "Infinite Insights," or Larry Tatum's reissued, "Confidence: A Child's First Weapon?" Then you'll know, and you won't have to rely on generalizations.... *



I wasn't asking which one was right I am asking should one method be called kenpo and the other somthing else. I'm sure larry Tatum has all kinds of things to say on the subject but we don't discuss. The difference in angles is somthing I noticed at the Vegas Camp one year. These subtle differences that I noticed change the whole dynamic of the art in my opinion. I had a chance to ask Mr. Sepulvida himself but I didnt want to say "why do yall block so funny?" or somthing to that affect. I have the infinite Insights and it does not address blocking from a fighting stance and what your exact angle should be in relation to your opponent, or wheather or not you block on the upside or the downside of the circle. If it did there wouldn't be any confusion.


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## Billy Lear (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Billy Lear,
> fist law sounds like a martial art to me. If it isnt, what about fist law that is destinctive from the word martial art? *



Touch'O'Death,

Fist Law sounds like a martial art? I agree it does sound like a martial art but the definitions of these words are not interchangable. 

Martial Art = War Art.

*To quote Mr. Pick (because I think his definition of this term is the best I've seen):*

Martial means war and war means kill. Art is an expression. Martial Art is an expression of war.

*Now here is my understanding of the word Kenpo:*

Kenpo = Fist Law.

Ken means fist, which is a hand clenched with the fingers doubled into the palm and the thumb doubled inward across the fingers. A clenched fist can often be associated with fighting, but not necessarily the act of killing. Law is a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority.

I would venture to say that Kenpo (in it's purest form) is a persons unmitigated control over his/her fists.

If you delve into the rabbit hole a little deeper the fist takes on it's own meaning in our salute. Within this context it represents the physicality of the practitioner. Therefore, a master of Kenpo is considered a master of his/her physical self.

The words have different implications and therefore they have different meanings. I'm sorry, but I disagree with you about this too.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:


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## Michael Billings (Jun 3, 2003)

My criticism was directed at Touch'O - not you. You were responding to his/her post. 

Although I do personally take offense to the remark:



> _Posted by Touch'O'Death_
> 
> Whoa!, come down off the Empire State building there King Kong.



It was not your reply that I was responding to. 

If you look at my history of responses and interactions on this board and any other, you will see I try to be a moderating influence ... not to be confused with a Moderator, (I want to express my personal opinion and learn through dialogue, which is difficult if you are also in an "authority" position.) 

I was terse and somewhat irritated by Touch'O'Death's statement only in that he/she seems to be consistently critical of certain aspects of Kenpo. It is the history more than the specificity of the statement that set my tone. I guess when he brought it home by using the President of my Association I reacted in haste:



> _Posted by Touch'O'Death_
> 
> All of the Sepulvida people block at a different angle than the way I have been taught ...



Your quote is very specific, however, In re-reading it I see you did not say that "your way" was the "correct" way, nor did you say it was the "standard", "norm", or "Ideal" for Kenpo practitioners. I am 100% certain of John Sepulveda's teaching methods, his knowledge of Methods of Execution, Paths of Motion, Angles of Degree and various Natural Weapons used in blocking. That is not to say he does not modify them appropriately at times. 

I apologize for getting so wrapped up in the criticism that I lost the actual thread topic in my response. Of course it is all Kenpo, and the Infinite Insights gives us the Ideal Phase, from which we develop our baseline for Basics.

Left over Right


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## Robbo (Jun 3, 2003)

If I'm reading this post correctly I assume you are asking how much can you distill EPAK to get to the core of what it (Kenpo) is.

Get rid of everything and by starting with a clean slate determine what elements make Kenpo what it is. Well.....

Kenpo is the study of motion and therefore there should some movements that everything within the system is extrapolated from.

Wouldn't these be the master key movements?

So any system that teaches the master key movements and how to effectively employ them could be Kenpo.

Or....are the MKM much older than any definition of a system and Mr. Parker based a system on acheiving a intuitive understanding of them in a way that was much more logical and structured than any system of the day?


It would have been a easier question to answer if you had asked what makes EPAK EPAK.

Rob


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## twinkletoes (Jun 3, 2003)

Robbo,

Sorry, I don't mean anything that specific (EPAK).  I mean Kenpo.  That's what makes it harder.  

BUT I do like what you've said here: 



> are the MKM much older than any definition of a system and Mr. Parker based a system on acheiving a intuitive understanding of them in a way that was much more logical and structured than any system of the day?



That sounds like a good avenue for this discussion to explore...

Best,

~TT


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## Billy Lear (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Although I do personally take offense to the remark:
> 
> Whoa!, come down off the Empire State building there King Kong.
> *



It seems to me that Touch 'O' Death thinks he's in possession of all the answers. His lack of character in his responses also dictates that he isn't here to share his opinions, or expereinces, but to impose them.

Mr. Billings, you're a good man. Don't let this guy take up too much space in your head. :asian:


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## Wes Idol (Jun 3, 2003)

M, 

I'm sorry for you having to read some of the garbage found on this string.  Not withstanding a few others who have taken childish hits, I really wish all internet posts had to be followed by a face to face.

Anyways, keeping good thoughts when you come to mind.

Your friend, 
W


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *So if I use your method of reasoning here I wonder... does that make me a bad Kenpoist?  *



PROBABLY, Sorry I challanged your little world, but beside defending my self against Kenpo Dragon and those that hevent actualy read what I wrote. What have I stated as fact that so upset you?


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## KenpoDragon (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *PROBABLY, Sorry I challanged your little world, but beside defending my self against Kenpo Dragon and those that hevent actualy read what I wrote. What have I stated as fact that so upset you? *


 Out of respect for one of my Seniors (Clyde) I will keep my words as clean as possible. If you look at your posts you will see that you, not me, were the first to shoot. What was it you said, "I can just see KenpoDragon grabbing his Encyclopedia now" or something to that effect. You were not defending yourself from me, you struck first, I reacted and counter striked. So with all due respect, don't pretend that your innocent here Touch"o"Death, because you are not.

 :shrug:


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *Out of respect for one of my Seniors (Clyde) I will keep my words as clean as possible. If you look at your posts you will see that you, not me, were the first to shoot. What was it you said, "I can just see KenpoDragon grabbing his Encyclopedia now" or something to that effect. You were not defending yourself from me, you struck first, I reacted and counter striked. So with all due respect, don't pretend that your innocent here Touch"o"Death, because you are not.
> 
> :shrug: *



Hey Dragon, disregard any previous remarks from myself, I have now abdicated my nice thoughts.    

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## KenpoDragon (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Hey Dragon, disregard any previous remarks from myself, I have now abdicated my nice thoughts.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...


 Is that a "Fire at Will" command I hear? Or did I miss interpret your words Clyde?

:asian: KenpoDragon


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## twinkletoes (Jun 3, 2003)

Um, hi guys.  Not to sound bored, but are you guys actually arguing over who is arguing with who, and who started arguing first?  Yikes.

So let' say that it's true:  two kenpoka do your inward blocks differently.  Certainly you both do Kenpo--that much seems clear.  What else could you do differently and still have it be kenpo?  Forms.........techniques........stances.........sparring....what else?

~TT


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## lonekimono (Jun 3, 2003)

I don't understand this i left one post where people were not so nice,now i stop here and i see people  doing handsword's to each other.
will it ever end?


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## lonekimono (Jun 3, 2003)

Now about what makes it kenpo

look at  it this way  K E N P O
now tell yourself what is in between the k and the E take  a good look at it and you will see that it is SPACE and it's all the way to the o. that called  "doing it by the number's".
now take the word KENPO and write it not print it,what have you got? no spaces, that shows how we keep the teq, moving and with the flow, ie five swords when you do it by the numbers it looks like a robot, but when you let it go look out.
that what makes it kenpo:asian: :asian: 





> strike like the paw of the tiger, block with the wisdom of the dragon.          G. Elmer (ackks)


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 3, 2003)

King Kong died from smog ya know.........


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## Klondike93 (Jun 4, 2003)

And so speakith the great one  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 


:asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2003)

Ok I'll try again. When is my motion not kenpo? Krav Maga is Kenpo as far as I'm concerned. If you don't believe that, what about it or any other system makes it not Kenpo? And KD I'll even let you consult your book on this one.


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## lonekimono (Jun 4, 2003)

what can i say,at lease no one was yelling at each other  and oh the dog pic's, na i won't go there.


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## lonekimono (Jun 4, 2003)

HEY SEAN i see that you like music, well kenpo is music and back in the late 70's the blackbirds had a BIG hit that was kenpo also.
do you know what it was? and can you name that tune???


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *HEY SEAN i see that you like music, well kenpo is music and back in the late 70's the blackbirds had a BIG hit that was kenpo also.
> do you know what it was? and can you name that tune??? *


No, Maybe if you hum a few bars...


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *Is that a "Fire at Will" command I hear? Or did I miss interpret your words Clyde?
> 
> :asian: KenpoDragon *



Fire for effect Captain, one over the bow.   Yea, you read me right.   I called last night but no answer on the # you gave, try again today.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Billy Lear (Jun 4, 2003)

First, if you are going to quote me, put my words in the correct context and don't manipulate them.

Second, I think I met you in Las Vegas a few years ago at Jeff Speakman's Annual Kenpo Camp. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't we discuss a guy named Aaron Wheeler while I was passing out flyers for Frank Trejo's tournament? If that wasn't you, I must have you mixed up with a much nicer guy.

Third, You seem to have a personal issue with me. Your condescending approach on this board does not speak very highly of you or your instructor right now. You've successfully pissed off a lot of people in a very short amount of time. Some of them have more time in the art than you've been alive. I suggest you re-think the way you approach people in the future.

Fourth, fortunately for you "My" world is a little larger than you think. If my world were smaller... I'd be in my car driving over to have a little chat with you right about now. If you think I'm all talk, and no play... you're wrong. I've always wanted to visit Spokane.

Lastly, I will fight you or any other black belt that disrespects me without prior cause. I'm sure there will be a time and place where we can finish this in the future. Don't forget to eat your Wheaties... I have a long memory.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:


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## Robbo (Jun 4, 2003)

I'm waiting for some intelligent replys to the question of what makes Kenpo Kenpo and I keep reading these really bad posts about who insulted who. 

Give it a rest and get back to the subject.

Rob


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## tonbo (Jun 4, 2003)

Okay, my unsolicited take on the whole thing:

It's like cooking, IMHO.  You have trademark elements of a style, just like you might have trademark sauces, spices, or even foods of a particular ethnicity.

For Kenpo, the theories of motion, the terminology, the creeds, the forms, the philosophies, etc. .....these are what make the art what it is.   It doesn't matter whether it is EPAK Kenpo, Bob's Kenpo, or Billy Joe's Magic Ninja Kenpo.....it is still, at it's heart, Kenpo.

If I were to use fake crab meat (you know the stuff..) when rolling sushi, is it still sushi?  What if I am not a certified sushi chef?  Well, yes....it is still inherently sushi.  It may not be true Japanese, master-crafted sushi, but it will do in a pinch.  Same here.  If you take the theories behind Kenpo, use the ideas and terminology, and so forth......you can call your style whatever you want to, but it will still inherently be "kenpo" at it's heart.

Kenpo, like any other martial art, does not reside mainly in the blocks and strikes of the art.  Most martial arts use the same strikes and blocks, although some will vary the angles, names, etc.  The variance in the arts comes mainly from their philosophies, histories, and "seasoning" that they have.  Arts that develop from a war-based, no-nonsense culture, for example, will be a bit different from arts developed by a peaceful, isolated culture.  It's just the nature of the beast.

My very simple point is this:  If you feel the need to change an art, then do it.  Call it what you will.  Be the super-awesome, most godlike, ascendent, resplendant Grandmaster Poobah, if you wish.  However, if you base your style on the theories and basis of Kenpo, it is *still* an offshoot of Kenpo.  No getting around that.

Okay, now on to the other stuff.  Look, to quote the Grandmaster Monty Python:  "Look, this is supposed to be a *happy* occasion.  Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who....".  Can't we just agree to disagree, and pick up from there?  Hey, if someone wants to tell me that what I am doing is not "true" Kenpo, well, fine.  That's their opinion.  *My* opinion is that I practice an "offshoot" of Kenpo, and that's what I'm going to call it:  Kenpo.  Does someone putting a different name to an art change the fact that those that *know* Kenpo will see it for what  it is?

To leave with a few quotes:

"A rose by any other name still smells just as sweet" (okay, I know that's not the exact quote.....sorry, but I'm at work)

"I yam what I yam" (from another venerable master)

"If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck."

"DUCK!!"

All respect intended.  Flames ignored, opinions appreciated.

Peace--  :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 4, 2003)

This thread got some blood flowing!:rofl: 

What makes Kenpo Kenpo for me is the logical approach to the martial arts.  Mr. Parker evaluated what he was taught (and continued to learn) and considered his "street" experience and developed a pragmatic approach to self defense.  Of course it expanded way beyond just self defense once he got the ball rolling and widened the base to also include many other aspects.

The "Kenpo Tools" tm aka all the essential factors that make up the Art (principles, concepts, web of knowledge, universal pattern, equation formula, terminology, 3 points of view, etc., etc.) all contribute to my (our) definition of KENPO.

I believe that Kenpo is the Best Art there is....... (bias I realize, but hey.........) I feel we have the ultimate [if utilized and focused upon] such as: we have just as many or more kicks than TKD and can or have the ability to do them better if worked, we have the power of shotokan if focused on, we have the redirection of Aikido when utilized, we have the flow and beauty of any of the Kung/Gung/Gong fu systems when wanted, we have the sweeps, reaps, and throws of Judo if desired, we have the skills of a boxer, or grappler, or the option of various weapons from swords, knives, clubs, spears, quando's, chain whips, bull whips, throwing stars........ and on and on and on.  But............. it all depends on the individual and his/her experiences and journey, desires and instruction that is essential.  It doesn't just flow up to your door step automatically!  Seek and ye shall find.   :shrug: 

I enjoy my colorful mix of material that I have experienced and will continue to explore and share that material with my students 'till I end my existence on this planet.

To me............ no matter what I do...........  IT IS KENPO.

:asian:


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## Disco (Jun 4, 2003)

First, let me state that I am an outsider to Kenpo. Mabey with this aspect, I could give a different viewpoint. 

I asked a Kenpo person many, many years ago, "what makes your art different from the others"? This was his answer.........................

"Kenpo is a mindset. We train to make that mindset a reality. That mindset is...... total annihilation"!

So with that as a base of reference, I would say Kenpo is Kenpo. Really dosen't matter who, why or where. Kenpo is Kenpo!

The one thing aside from the above, and this is a personal observation. You Kenpo people sure are PASSIONATE about your art. I do envy you all for that, your one big family. 
:asian:


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## jeffkyle (Jun 4, 2003)

Very Well put Mr C.!


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## lonekimono (Jun 4, 2003)

what a way to start your day, a cup of coffee and martial talk,,
and oh yes my meds   and oh billy don't go to spokan i was there it rains ALL THE TIME .
and now to get to the point, WHY are people ripping each other apart over kenpo "WHO CARES" if they want to do something other than the way you/we/ me do it i don't care!!
like i said before it's the way we write not print, we start out printing and learn how to write ( thats means to flow).

 anyway :rofl: 

ps Mr C you know me,i love how u say thing's


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## Billy Lear (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *what a way to start your day, a cup of coffee and martial talk,,
> and oh yes my meds   and oh billy don't go to spokan i was there it rains ALL THE TIME .
> and now to get to the point, WHY are people ripping each other apart over kenpo "WHO CARES" if they want to do something other than the way you/we/ me do it i don't care!!
> ...



Elmer,

I responded to the guys posts intelligently, and without insult. He insists on being a jerk.

I personally think that Kaith should have deleted  Touch "O" Death after he called Kaith a racist in the Locker Room. The "Seig heil" comment that was posted there wasn't very much better either since Mike Seigel is Jewish and he probably had family die in the holocaust.

As for the topic on this thread... I think there is a point that it isn't Kenpo anymore, and that to me is when the basics are altered to a point that they cannot be identified as being Kenpo anymore. Not one or two minor changes in the system, but something that drastically changes it in it's entirety.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:


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## tonbo (Jun 4, 2003)

> You Kenpo people sure are PASSIONATE about your art. I do envy you all for that, your one big family.



Amen.

Let's keep it that way... 

:asian: 

Peace--


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## Billy Lear (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> *Amen.
> 
> Let's keep it that way...
> ...



I agree! :asian:


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## Michael Billings (Jun 4, 2003)

... but hey, what family isn't?  

Awesome posts in bring this thread back around.  Thanks guys.

Oss!


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *First, if you are going to quote me, put my words in the correct context and don't manipulate them.
> 
> Second, I think I met you in Las Vegas a few years ago at Jeff Speakman's Annual Kenpo Camp. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't we discuss a guy named Aaron Wheeler ...
> Lastly, I will fight you or any other black belt that disrespects me without prior cause. I'm sure there will be a time and place where we can finish this in the future*


Oh yea, I remember you. You were telling me how you were going to beat up Aaron Wheeler and just getting all worked up talking about it. I can only assume that fight didn't occur because you would be that grease spot his dogs licked up off the carpet. So I made your list, what an honor. Perhaps instead of making lists of all the people you plan to beat up you should quit Kenpo and work on that list of personality traits that makes you so hostile. You can go ahead and dis my instructor but I wonder about your instructor teaching such an angry person. you still havent listed any specific things that make a move non-kenpo. Do you know what your talking about?


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## Billy Lear (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Oh yea, I remember you. You were telling me how you were going to beat up Aaron Wheeler and just getting all worked up talking about it. I can only assume that fight didn't occur because you would be that grease spot his dogs licked up off the carpet. So I made your list, what an honor. Perhaps instead of making lists of all the people you plan to beat up you should quit Kenpo and work on that list of personality traits that makes you so hostile. You can go ahead and dis my instructor but I wonder about your instructor teaching such an angry person. you still havent listed any specific things that make a move non-kenpo. Do you know what your talking about? *



As I recall you were the one that wanted to kick Aaron's *** not me... as I recall it was because he was teaching so close to your school...

And, oh yes... you're the *only* one on my list. :shrug:

As for me giving up Kenpo, you should pray that I do. :asian:


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## Michael Billings (Jun 4, 2003)

You are chasing each other from thread to thread fighting.  From the Circle of  Doom to this one.  It is getting nasty and NOT APPRECIATED.  

Billy, I know you are responding or reacting.  Touch'O'Death thrives on the controversy.  Treat his posts as if that is the hidden intent.  What is he getting out of the interactions, since it is not learning or information.  Vicarious sublimation?  Safe Aggression?  Etc.  I know you, so I am addressing you and not him.  I don't want to play with him NO MO', so I won't.  You on the other hand are not in the same boat at all.  Rise above it Brudda.

Keeping the Flame Alive!


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## lonekimono (Jun 4, 2003)

Hey MR DEATH knock it off  this has got to stop !!! 
and you my friend show no way that you are a true martial art's person,what's with all the little kid NAME CALLING 
these people on MARTIAL TALK(most of them) are my friends and brother's/sister's in the art's.
I don't know where you came from and i'm not going to say anything bad about you and whatever system you do, but let's act like we have some gray matter left:asian: 
so please lets get on with the post and have some good times.

    thank you





> know what you know,,you know the rest


 :asian: :asian:


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## Jay Bell (Jun 4, 2003)

Hey folks...please tone it down a bit.  We're adults, not kids on a playground...


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## lonekimono (Jun 4, 2003)

Been saying the same thing:asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *As I recall you were the one that wanted to kick Aaron's *** not me... as I recall it was because he was teaching so close to your school...
> 
> And, oh yes... you're the only one on my list. :shrug:
> ...


Well, you remember wrong. I don't own a school. The instructor at the school I currently train in was not happy. I met Arron and hung out a little. Your exact words were "when I get my hands On him..." Sounds like you doesnt it?


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## Billy Lear (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Sounds like you doesnt it? *



Nope, but things change... Don't they. :shrug:


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 4, 2003)

Ok folks this is an official  warning stop the name calling and challanges  or take some time off from the forum.
 We enjoy haveing all of you post but keep it friendy and respectful. 
  There will not be a 2nd warning 

tshadowchaser
moderator


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## Billy Lear (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch 'O' Death_
> 
> *Oh yea, I remember you. You were telling me how you were going to beat up Aaron Wheeler... *



Aaron has made many people angry, and I recall saying that if you wanted to kick his *** you would have to take a number, period.



> _Originally posted by Touch 'O' Death_
> 
> *Perhaps instead of making lists of all the people you plan to beat up you should quit Kenpo and work on that list of personality traits that makes you so hostile.*



I'm not usually a hostile guy, but Frank has never condoned me taking crap off of anyone. Especially the condescending crap that you've been spouting lately.



> _Originally posted by Touch 'O' Death_
> 
> *You can go ahead and dis my instructor but I wonder about your instructor teaching such an angry person.*



Skip Hancock has never been rude to me (and I never dissed him). But, you decided to be rude to me from the get go. Hell, you've been absolutely abnoxious to everyone that disagrees with you on this board (regardless of the topic). When you decided to start trash talking me... of course I got angry.



> _Originally posted by Touch 'O' Death_
> 
> *you still havent listed any specific things that make a move non-kenpo.*



Flying side kick =  not Kenpo.



> _Originally posted by Touch 'O' Death_
> 
> *Do you know what your talking about?*



Um... Yes. Yes I do.


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## Billy Lear (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *Ok folks this is an official  warning stop the name calling and challanges  or take some time off from the forum.
> We enjoy haveing all of you post but keep it friendy and respectful.
> There will not be a 2nd warning
> ...



I read you loud and clear. :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2003)

> [i
> Flying side kick =  not Kenpo.
> [/B]


So, kicking a guy off his horse is not Kenpo. Does this include all jumping kicks or just that one. And it follws that as long as a Tea-kwon-do man makes sure not to kick their opponent off of a horse is a Kenpo guy?


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2003)

any thing else?


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## Billy Lear (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *So, kicking a guy off his horse is not Kenpo. Does this include all jumping kicks or just that one. And it follws that as long as a Tea-kwon-do man makes sure not to kick their opponent off of a horse is a Kenpo guy? *



I posted that flying side kicks are not Kenpo, period.

What is Tea-Kwon-Do? I've heard of Tae-Kwon-Do before, but Tea-Kwon-Do...?

I'm not sure I follow the second part of your post. It doesn't make any sense, possibly due to the grammatical errors in it.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2003)

correcton Tae kwon do; so, Is it all Kenpo until a flying side kick happens? Is there anything else that is not kenpo we need to keep an eye out for? Are you out of answers?


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## Kenpodoc (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _
> *I'm waiting for some intelligent replys to the question of what makes Kenpo Kenpo and I keep reading these really bad posts about who insulted who.
> 
> Give it a rest and get back to the subject.
> ...



Personally I think that what makes kenpo Kenpo is lineage and history.  There is considerable variation amongst the various lineages but ultimately it is from the same family.  

The other side of this question is when is the art no longer kenpo.  I think probably when the leader of that line chooses to call it something else. 

Personally I enjoy all the kenpo infighting on these boards.  American Kenpo draws independent ornery practitioners whoare opinionated and generally looking to the future and not just the past. Personally I recommend playing hard in the studio then going out for a beer, but sparring on line will do in a pinch.


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## Billy Lear (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *correcton Tae kwon do; so, Is it all Kenpo until a flying side kick happens? Is there anything else that is not kenpo we need to keep an eye out for? Are you out of answers? *



I gave you one example of one movement that I consider to not be Kenpo. I'm not going to afford you anymore of my time. **Ignore option activated, Sean Wold, is no more... Ahhh, and now back to Martial Talk without any further interruptions.** 
:2xbird:   :2xbird:   :2xbird:


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## Kenpodoc (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *
> 
> Flying side kick =  not Kenpo.
> ...



I saw an old video with Mr. Parker doing a Flying side Kick in a demo, it  looked like Kenpo to me.  

I've seen so much variation from Kenpo group  to Kenpo group that I'm convinced that Kenpo is a Family of people related by history and lineage.  Sort of like the Gambini family but a lot more fun.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Billy Lear (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *I saw an old video with Mr. Parker doing a Flying side Kick in a demo, it  looked like Kenpo to me.
> 
> I've seen so much variation from Kenpo group  to Kenpo group that I'm convinced that Kenpo is a Family of people related by history and lineage.  Sort of like the Gambini family but a lot more fun.
> ...



Jeff,

I do not doubt for a minute that Mr. Parker could infact do a flying side kick. I am only saying that it is not a part of his Kenpo system as he left it. (If you have a copy of that video I would love to see it, not that I doubt you... only that I like seeing Mr. Parker in action.)

As for the second part of your post... I understand exactly where you're coming from there, and can subscribe to that train of thought to a point... A good question to ask would be... Can someone divorce themselves from Kenpo? Does this happen from changes to the system (in it's fundamentals and basics), or does this occour as a result of changing affiliations and associations?

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *. A good question to ask would be... Can someone divorce themselves from Kenpo?  *



I doubt it. It's in the blood my man.  



> Does this happen from changes to the system (in it's fundamentals and basics), or does this occour as a result of changing affiliations and associations?



I think basics are just respresented slightly differently from instructor to instructor. The second part of the question I can't really answer. I believe it's a personal point of view.


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## twinkletoes (Jun 4, 2003)

I am pleased to see that we have a couple of factors that seem necessary in Kenpo:

#1 - mindset of "annihiliation".  This perhaps leads to the old reputation of kenpo as an art of "overkill" (or "overskill" as I usually hear it said by the kenpoka). Call it what you will, kenpo is a multi-strike format, emphasizing an overwhelming and continuing offensive until the threat is neutralized.  

#2 - Kenpo is eclectic in its methods and origin.  It is hard and soft, linear and circular, and uses striking and grappling.  It employs all methods which it finds useful.  It contains karate, kung fu, jujutsu, judo, aikido, chin na, pressure points/kyusho, and more.  

These seem to be integral parts of Kenpo.  To change these would be to lose its "kenpo-ness".  What else is necessarily inherent in Kenpo?

~Chris

PS - I use flying side kicks in my kenpo.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _*
> I use flying side kicks in my kenpo.
> *



We do too!

:rofl:


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## Kirk (Jun 4, 2003)

Not that I've seen a ton of differences among the different 
lineages of kenpo, but I love seeing the various aspects.  It's 
allowed me to choose the one I like best, or take some from
this one, and some from that, and put them together.


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## lonekimono (Jun 4, 2003)

You the man billy :asian: :asian: :asian:


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## KenpoDragon (Jun 5, 2003)

Man, take a day away from the keyboard and all hell breaks loose. 2 Accounts suspended???  Now I DEFINATELY understand Touch"o"Death's but Billy's awwwwwww that's just plain wrong. I noticed the MOD WARNING but I didn't notice any violations of it from Billy, after that. See Touch"o"Death, you went and screwed this post up, with your blatantly rude attacks on anyone who disagrees with your way of thinking. Now I normally don't attack a man who can't defend themselves, but in your case I'll make an exception......hehehe. This FORUM is for martial artists from ALL backrounds and styles, just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean that "they" are wrong. You say that you have this many years in the art, so what!!! Plenty of guys on this forum have three times your years in the "art", time in the "art" is one thing, knowledge in the "art" is something else entirely. I knew eventually your mouth would right a check that your body couldn't cash. Man I would not want to be you!!! You have irritated some mean mothers!!! You should always know who you are messing with, and exactly what they are capable of. I seriously suggest that when you get back from your "vacation" that you tone it down, a lot. Just my "humble" opinion though.


 :asian: KenpoDragon


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## Disco (Jun 5, 2003)

I can't believe after all this time and debate and fighting that not one of you guys really know the answer.

Oh the shame of it all......................................


I guess you have to be outside the circle to see the truth......


    "WHAT MAKES IT KENPO"?


Come on people, we all can see!   IT"S THE LETTER "K" :rofl: :rofl:


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## tonbo (Jun 5, 2003)

"What makes it Kenpo?"

All the Kenpoka.  Plain and simple.  

Guys like GoldenDragon who keep the "original" material alive, continue to explore it and pass on the material.....and add in enough to keep it living.

Peace--


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## lonekimono (Jun 5, 2003)

Hey disco what do you mean outside the circle to see the truth??
and you know it don't really matter anyway,i know it works when I need it,,so hows your day /night so far??


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## Disco (Jun 5, 2003)

I've got a car and a wife and there both working, so I'm in good shape. Thanks for asking


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## Turner (Jun 5, 2003)

This topic hits very close to home with me since it almost looks like Chris is telling my story. I started learning the martial arts when I was 7 and I'm now 24 giving me 17 years of experience in a variety of different martial arts. I've discovered that Kenpo is my art because many of the same principles that I discovered over the years (Web of knowledge, family groupings, Overskill, equation formula and etc) were also discovered by Mr. Parker long before I was even alive. That excites me, and yet as I look at the curriculum developed by Mr. Parker, I see problems. The techniques and the forms are great, don't get me wrong, but I feel that the same thing can be accomplished in a more efficient manner.

All of the techniques are very fun and I'm sure very effective to use. (I haven't used them in combat so I can't attest to their effectiveness.) Yet I see far too much of the same combinations used over and over in different techniques. In some cases it is necessary because it is teaching a certain point... that the same technique can be used in response to a different attack. That is wonderful and should be taught, but how many times? I believe that once is enough.

The web of knowledge is something that I believed in long before I even knew who Mr. Parker or Kenpo was and so I know that it should be taught and yet I think that the web of knowledge as presented by EPAK needs a little work to connect each level of the web and create the whole. The goal should be to provide the student the ability to defend themselves against an attack as soon as possible. Most arts teach that you might as well fall over and die if you get cornered before you reach your black belt. I disagree and think that you should have experience against as many different types of attacks as possible to give you a fighting chance as early as purple belt. So why are defenses against knives presented at the higher levels? Why are defenses against multiple assailants presented at higher levels? I think they should be included as early as yellow belt.

My approach to teaching my students is this: I'm responsible for his or her life if s/he is attacked. If I hold her back by teaching her foreign languages, how to weave baskets or by saying that she has to remain in rank for X amount of time and she gets attacked and doesn't know what to do... IT IS MY FAULT. So I want my teaching to be as efficient as possible. I know that I can't teach her how to defend herself against every single situation so I have to spend my time teaching her the basic concepts of self defense... how each move needs to flow with each other, how to add or subtract or rearrange moves in a technique so that she can adjust to fit the situation, how to maximize her attack by making the assailant work against himself. This is my duty... relaying the concepts of combat.

Mr. Parker was a brilliant man in his creation of Kenpo. Give him credit where it is due. But was he perfect? Absolutely not! Is it so illogical to think that someone can't continue to build where He left off? I don't have to be a brilliant man to take his teachings and improve them. I have a base to go on. The brilliance has been given to me and by looking at it and putting it under the microscope it is possible to see flaws and work on improving them just as I expect for someone to work on those improvements and find flaws and make it even better. That is the way of the world.

Since Kenpo is all about Analogies, lets use one. Inventing the wheel. Is this about reinventing the wheel? Absolutely not!
A long time ago someone discovered that round objects rolled and used that concept to make a stone wheel.
A long time ago someone discovered that the body could be used as a weapon.
Time passed and someone realized that it would be easier of the wheel where made out of wood.
Time passed and someone realized that elbow strikes were more effective than striking with the fist.
Time flies by and now we have a very light tire that is extremely durable.
Time flies by and now we have Kenpo Karate.

A tire still has room to evolve. It can be made lighter and more durable.
Kenpo still has room to evolve. That evolution can come from any one of us, whether it is a 23 year old or 50 year old. Age doesn't mean anything when it comes to making discoveries. It is all about perspective.

Chris may be utterly wrong in his approach just as I might be, but the seniors should do everything in their power to encourage him/me to help the art evolve instead of giving reasons why we don't have the experience to have a hand in it's evolution. As misguided as I might be, improving the art and seeking more efficient ways to convey the art should be encouraged rather than supressed.

That is my opinion and I'm a nobody so feel free to ignore me.

Doug


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## lonekimono (Jun 5, 2003)

Hey turner when you write your book i'll buy it but this to long to read right now, have to go open the school,,oh and disco must be great to be the king


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 5, 2003)

Right on!  You two open-minded youngsters are why Kenpo has a bright future.  Keep what works, discard what doesn't.  Find out what else works, add it to your Kenpo.  Most importantly, keep on keepin on.


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## lonekimono (Jun 5, 2003)

OFK i was born in 1955, started kenpo in 65 u do the math, cause i don't like to  anymore   :rofl:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 5, 2003)

Lonekimono:  I was born in 1961 and started Kenpo in 1973.  You are clearly much more senior than I.  I can only hope that you are not as fat as I am.  I also hope that we can all respect and benefit from the inquisitiveness and open-mindedness of the next generation.


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## twinkletoes (Jun 5, 2003)

Doug-

That was a very sensible and well thought post.  I think we see eye to eye on many things.  I'm glad to see we are not the only ones, either.  

Certainly we recognize that a great level of knowledge went into the creation and organization of what we know as modern Kenpo Karate.  We would be equally foolish not to recognize that nothing we do today is "the pinnacle of development" in any field.  Kenpo must develop along with our understanding of everything else in the world.  Times change.  

(To that end, I think it was late in Infinite Insights Vol 1 that Mr. Parker used an example of a machine gun in the colliseum.  If we still had the understanding and used the methods of that time, we would not be taking into account modern technological advances.  I believe he says that it behooves us to keep abreast of new developments in ways to use our natural weapons.  I believe that this also includes the way we train them.)

Best,

~Chris


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## Disco (Jun 5, 2003)

Shhhhhh........ Not so loud, my wife mite hear...................

Have a good workout at the school.....:asian:


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## Kirk (Jun 5, 2003)

Are you saying that:

Forms have been used for centuries in the martial arts.  Mr Parker
passed away 13 years ago, and before his passing he mentioned
nothing of eliminating forms AFAIK.  But in the past 13 years,
technology has advanced so much that we should now eliminate
forms and techniques and move on to something else???


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 5, 2003)

Kirk:  That is exactly the argument proposed by advocates of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, JKD, Muay Thai, and Mixed Martial Arts.

Even if you think this view is extreme, there is some validity in the argument that spenidng more time on basics, technique application, and sparring is a more effective method for training to fight.


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## twinkletoes (Jun 5, 2003)

Kirk,

Yes and no.  Boxing and wrestling have been around longer than many other martial arts, and they contain neither forms nor techniques.  My understanding of the origin of kata is that it was often used to teach long-distance students who had limited amounts of time with the master.  This way the material was in a memorizable and easy-to-practice format.  In that contect, they are an excellent tool.  

I know that people will say "but forms and techniques build attributes:  they teach correct motion and movement, and they build attention to detail and accuracy, as well as focus an concentration.  When done the right way they are also quite a workout."  These people are right--there'so denying these things.  There are other important attributes, though, like timing and distancing.  These cannot be practiced fully through pre-choreographed routines, even two-man ones.  

Forms and techniques DO develop the attributes I mentioned above.  But so does bag work, pad work, and other kinds of drills.  These drills can also build the other attributes I mentioned, and foster better ability for improvisation.

Does that mean they should be replaced?  I'm not sure.  That's a big decision.  However, it does mean that they are not the "be all and end all" of learning the martial arts that some people would say they are.  And even admitting that is a big step for some people.

Best,

~Chris


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## A.R.K. (Jun 5, 2003)

Posted by Disco way back on another page...



> "Kenpo is a mindset. We train to make that mindset a reality. That mindset is...... total annihilation"!



That was Ed Parker, right?

:asian:


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## lonekimono (Jun 5, 2003)

OFK you are a man with wisdom:asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 6, 2003)

Lone Kimono:  Thanks for the complement.


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