# how long to spar



## cfr (Jul 19, 2003)

Im at a new school doing JKD, Silat, Kali, Muay Thai. I really dig the school and the cirriculum alot. Before this school my MA training is very limited. Anyways, I found out that sparring wont start until about 2 years into the training. I was really hoping to do some sparring sooner than that. I dont want to be billy bad *** or ever compete. But I do want to spar as Ive never done it. How much value do you put into sparring? Do you think 2 years is too long? Again, I really love my school, but this is frustrating.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 19, 2003)

I'm sure you will be working two man drills. It sounds like your instructor is trying to head any bads habbits off at the pass. Just work hard and stay with the program. you just might learn somthing.


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## MJS (Jul 23, 2003)

Sparring is definately an important thing to do.  However, you must make sure that it is realistic.  People always talk about sparring, and say that it is as close to a real fight as you can get.  It isnt if you are talking about point sparring, which is what alot of schools are geared towards.  For it to be close to a real fight, you need to train that way.  Not saying that you have to injure your partner, but put on some good gear, and go out and bang!!  Do your elbows, low line kicks, takedowns, grappling, etc.  

You will fight like you train, so if you don't train for realism, then if you find yourself in a situation, you'll also find yourself going to easy, pulling your shots, etc.

Sounds like you are at a good school and that the Inst has alot to offer.  Dont give up and keep training hard.  Getting good is not something that happens overnight.  It takes time and hard work!

Good Luck!!!!!!

Mike


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## cali_tkdbruin (Jul 23, 2003)

2 years of training before beginning to spar sounds a tad long to me, but then again I come from a different style. 

At my dojang we begin full contact sparring after 6 months of training in which we're thaught the basics such as blocks, dodging, attacking and counter-attacking... :asian:


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## kenpoevolution (Jul 23, 2003)

Even if you don't spar from an early stage of learning, it is probably important to work freestyle basics like we do in kenpo. Freestlye basics provide an easy method of constructing and ripping apart series of moves via the kenpo equation formula. 

For more information check out this site:

http://www.kenpo-texas.com/beltrequirements.htm


There is an explanation of the equation formula under orange belt and a set of freestlye technqiues listed under each belt.


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## Cruentus (Jul 23, 2003)

I believe that being a good fighter takes the ability not just to attack, but to counter, and to counter the counter. Sparring, semi-sparring, or "sparring like" drills is really the only way to help develop this ability


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## cali_tkdbruin (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I believe that being a good fighter takes the ability not just to attack, but to counter, and to counter the counter. Sparring, semi-sparring, or "sparring like" drills is really the only way to help develop this ability *



Yes, you're right IMHO. One also needs to develope good footwork too... :asian:


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## twinkletoes (Jul 24, 2003)

If you are working static, cooperative drills for two years before getting in the ring, forget it.  Go somewhere else.  

If you are working alive drills, with unscripted timing and footwork, that allow you to be spontaneous, creative, and original, then you don't need much sparring.  Those drills will make your skills functional.  Stay there!

~TT


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## cfr (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I believe that being a good fighter takes the ability not just to attack, but to counter, and to counter the counter. Sparring, semi-sparring, or "sparring like" drills is really the only way to help develop this ability *



What are "sparring like" drills?


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## cfr (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *
> If you are working alive drills, with unscripted timing and footwork, that allow you to be spontaneous, creative, and original, then you don't need much sparring.  Those drills will make your skills functional.  Stay there!
> 
> ~TT *




What are alive drills?  Lightly sparring?


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## twinkletoes (Jul 25, 2003)

Alive drills have 3 important features:  

-realistic resistance (i.e. there is no such thing as "you attacked wrong!")

-unchoreographed footwork (there must be footwork but it must not be scripted)

-unchoreographed timing (there should be an inherent need for appropriate timing)


These are part of what the Straight Blast Gym calls the I-method, which is:  Introduce, Isolate, Integrate.  

1st a skill is Introduced:  you learn how to throw a jab, apply a choke, do a roundhouse kick, shoot a double leg....whatever.  Doesn't matter.  You learn to do the move correctly.

2nd the skill is Isolated:  you drill in an alive manner to develop timing, positioning, and appropriateness with the skill.  For example, you and your partner put gloves on and he throws some basic attacks at you and you find the right time and place to use your jab (or whatever move was introduced).  You must move around freely and it shouldn't be "OK, you throw three punches and then I jab."  It's free and creative and involves a little improvisation on your part (when do i throw it, how do I get to the right range/position, etc.).  It teaches you to use the specific skill against real resistance.  

3rd the skill is Integrated:  You add this skill to your arsenal when you spar.  Try to integrate it with the rest of your tools.  If you have drilled in an alive manner, this will be easy. 

If you use this method, you can spend 5% of your time introducing the skill, 5% sparring, and the other 90% drilling with aliveness.  It works! 

I first experienced alive drilling when I started BJJ in '97.  I didn't have a term to discuss it, but I knew I liked that we trained against real resistance, and we had to learn to work around it.  It was lightyears ahead of the traditional standup training I had done for years and years.  About 6 months ago I saw the first set of SBG tapes by Matt Thornton, and it gave me a vocabulary and a way to apply that approach to everything.  Meeting Matt and training with him in a seminar was incredible, and now everything I teach is alive.  It's such a difference!  Students develop real skills right in front of your eyes, and not over months and months, but literally in minutes!  

~TT


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## Cruentus (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cfr _
> *What are "sparring like" drills? *



I am refering to my background in Modern Arnis where Professor Presas (Founder of that system) had designed different methods of teaching students how to "Counter the Counter" in a safe, seminar format. He would start us off with a pre-set, or drill, Such as the "6-count," where I strike to my partners head (With stick, knife, sword, or empty hand), he blocks and counter strikes to the body, and I block/counter stike to the knee, then he strikes to my head, I block/counter to his body, then he blocks/counters to my knee, etc. etc. etc. It is one continuous set of movements that is very easy to learn in a seminar format.

From learning the preset, though, you can then move away from the preset, where there is more of a free flow exchange. It started like a drill, but it ends up being free-sparring, where you and your partner are exchanging back and forth, but niether know who will do what next.

So, a "sparring-like drill" is any preset of movements that can grow into free-sparring. Many other systems of Martial Arts have excersises like this, where there is a give and take with an opponent. Tai Chi has Push hands, Systema has slow sparring, Grappling you can just go for "Take Downs" back and forth, and I have heard of "2 man forms" in some styles that can grow into free sparring. 

So, that is what I mean. I hope that this explains it! 

PAUL


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## Cruentus (Jul 25, 2003)

I liked your explaination. Training with "Aliveness" describes much of the training that I do. Good job!

:asian:


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## twinkletoes (Jul 26, 2003)

Paul,

Thanks, I can't take credit.  It's all Matt Thornton!  I started reading his works because I realized it gave me words to express what I experienced, and then I realized that he had already been there, and taken it to a whole new level!

Also, the progression you list for Modern Arnis is really good.  I wish I remembered, from something Roy Harris wrote, the 7 Kali drill phases he learned and teaches.

I will sum the parts relevant for our current discussion: 

Phase 1:  Learn the drill, get good at it (sumbrada, hubud lubud, etc.)

Phase 2:  Add fakes, destructions, etc

Phase 3:  Add other strikes, etc.

...........

Phase 7:  Full on sparring


Every drill eventually went through this progression, no matter what kind of pattern or dead drill it started as.  They all wound up being full on sparring in the end.  

I couldn't help but thinking "wow, I wish I had that progression in all the other stuff I study!"

~TT


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## cfr (Jul 26, 2003)

Have any of you been in a situation like mine and as a result done any sparring outside of class? Is that a bad idea? Any pointers?


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## Cruentus (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cfr _
> *Have any of you been in a situation like mine and as a result done any sparring outside of class? Is that a bad idea? Any pointers? *



Sparring is great outside of class, I think. You just have to remember a few things. 

#1 don't trust anybody. I love sparring with the cane (Eskrima Stick) with other Filipino Martial Artists. I don't use gear, but I know I have the control to throw a full speed/power shot at my opponent, yet stop it about an inch before the target. However, I can't trust that someone I do not know has that same type of control. So it is important that I don't let them get a shot off on me, because that could mean serious pain. Tough to do sometimes, sparring this way, so depending on experience of who I am dealing with, I sometimes slow it down.

#2 Be as curtious as you can. Try to figure out what they're "rules" are, and if you break a "rule" apologize, and try to fight within their perameters. If you are on there turf, this is the curtious thing to do. Remember, consider your sparring like "play" or a game where you are trying to learn as much as you can. Don't consider it a fight, or try to use it as a substitute for a fight. If you let your ego get involved you'll lose in the long run. Nothing substitutes a fight except a fight; this is probably the most important thing to keep in mind when sparring. 

So that's my advise! Have fun!


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