# handguns for self defense



## Runs With Fire (Aug 10, 2017)

My wife will be twenty-one this month. Bought her a pistol and going to go through a cpl course as a birthday present. I got her a gen 2 Remington R51.  For myself, I have a n old Glock 20 with night sights.  Now, the discussion of ccw weapons came up at a conference immediately following a carjacking with firearms segment.  The man who taught the class often is a fairly high profile lawyer and works with some high profile clients.  He sometimes carrys three pistols. A kimber .380 on his ankle, a 1911 on his side iwb, and a custom short barreled rifle 5.56 in his briefcase. 
A friend of mine carrys a glock 17 and a sometimes  (I forgot which one)a mini draco or zastava ( ak pistol).
I've been ridiculed for concealed carrying a full size pistol and for carrying a 10mm.  But it conceals well.  I also open carry when it won't cause a fuss. I have big hands and I shoot alot so the larger frame of my glock doesn't seem like overkill.  My position has been to carry the most firepower you can fully utalize. Let' trade opinions.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 10, 2017)

When I carried (no longer practical to do so), my approach was to carry what was most "natural" for me to shoot. I tried a 1911 officer's model .45, but the gun and the round didn't seem to work as well for me - the one wasn't as natural an aim for me as the Glock 17 I'd had for years, and the other produced a different kind of force than I was used to (more of a "shove"). So, I went back to a Glock, and went for the .40. Less easily concealed, not nearly as pretty, but it was as easy for me as the G17, and aiming is as natural as pointing.


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## CB Jones (Aug 10, 2017)

I like the Glock 43.   Very comfortable IWB.  I carry it all day.

Also carry a Glock 17 and a S&W Bodyguard in my backpack.


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## Buka (Aug 10, 2017)

God, I so hate guns. Even having worked with them my whole career, I fricken' hate them.

But I like to carry a Raven 25. Why? Because it's the only gun I've never seen jam in nearly forty years, and I don't miss with it. If I have to use it in civilian life, I don't care about knock down power, I just want to get their attention.


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## drop bear (Aug 10, 2017)

Buka said:


> God, I so hate guns. Even having worked with them my whole career, I fricken' hate them.
> 
> But I like to carry a Raven 25. Why? Because it's the only gun I've never seen jam in nearly forty years, and I don't miss with it. If I have to use it in civilian life, I don't care about knock down power, I just want to get their attention.



More like a fire extinguisher than the fire brigade?

The brigade fights fires. The extinguisher gets you to the exit.


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## Runs With Fire (Aug 10, 2017)

Buka said:


> God, I so hate guns. Even having worked with them my whole career, I fricken' hate them.
> 
> But I like to carry a Raven 25. Why? Because it's the only gun I've never seen jam in nearly forty years, and I don't miss with it. If I have to use it in civilian life, I don't care about knock down power, I just want to get their attention.


Interesting,  don't know many guys who own a 25.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 10, 2017)

Buka said:


> God, I so hate guns.


I hate when my opponent has gun and I don't.

Please ...






I would love to have one of these. This gun is not popular in US. It was very popular in my father's time back in China. You can switch between automatic and semi-automatic. When you switch to automatic, you can pull trigger just once and all 20 bullets will shot out.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 10, 2017)

Model 10 S&W 38 Special, 4 inch barrel, fixed sights, Pachmyr grip.

Sometimes a Derringer in 32ACP. 

Never both at the same time. I don't have to compensate for anything.


I've heard all the arguments against a 32, against a 38, against wheelguns, against derringers. Yawn. I know what I need and I know how to use it. Most opinions come from people who've never shot at anyone or been shot at.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 10, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I hate when my opponent has gun and I don't.
> 
> Please ...
> 
> ...


Glock 18 will do that, too. I'd love one of those.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 10, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Model 10 S&W 38 Special, 4 inch barrel, fixed sights, Pachmyr grip.
> 
> Sometimes a Derringer in 32ACP.
> 
> ...


I very much like a .380 as an easy carry gun. Not a lot of technical stopping power, but dead easy to shoot.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Glock 18 will do that, too. I'd love one of those.


That's what I'll call "hand gun".


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I very much like a .380 as an easy carry gun. Not a lot of technical stopping power, but dead easy to shoot.


380 is fine. Never much liked the 9mm para. Do like 7.65x25 tok and 9x18.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I very much like a .380 as an easy carry gun. Not a lot of technical stopping power, but dead easy to shoot.


Also some inexpensive but we'll made 380s out there now. Impressive.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 10, 2017)

As a firearms instructor the best gun you can have is one that you are effective with and that you carry with you all the time! 

Arguments about this or that caliber or size are all irrelevant.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 10, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> 380 is fine. Never much liked the 9mm para. Do like 7.65x25 tok and 9x18.


I love shooting 9mm para. For some reason, I shoot that round better than anything else except .22.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 10, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Also some inexpensive but we'll made 380s out there now. Impressive.


I have an old Ortgies I really like. Not the most dependable gun, but if I could find one just like it that was dependable...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 10, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> As a firearms instructor the best gun you can have is one that you are effective with and that you carry with you all the time!


This is why Walther PPK is my favor. When I put it in my pocket, sometime I don't even notice it's there.






I also like Colt 45 (gold). It makes me feel like a gang leader.


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## Runs With Fire (Aug 11, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> As a firearms instructor the best gun you can have is one that you are effective with and that you carry with you all the time!
> 
> Arguments about this or that caliber or size are all irrelevant.


I partly disagree.    A friend of mine runs a gun store and and teaches Michigan CPL.   His course reqires full magazine or wheel fired from every caliber he stocks under .41 magnum.  Very often, he'll have women bring their own .22lr semi auto because anything else seemed big and somebody said it would hurt them.  after firing several larger frame handguns,  opinions usually change.  Same thing with my wife. We to the fancy pants range and tried ten common pistols of varying size/ caliber.  At first she was scared of " the big ones" but she couldn't wield/ didn't approve of snubs, sub compact, or the smaller compacts;  especially the little. 380 and 9mm.  Her favorite was my Glock 20 (10mm) so- called magnum. Just because she could control it better.  Then, there's an acquaintance of mine from Texas  who, while checking out from an executive protection gig, confronted a 6.5 credemore in a large open hall with a 32 keltec.   Luckily another officer was well armed and two hours late in going home.  Everyone in his company now carries full frame. 45's mandatory.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 11, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why Walther PPK is my favor. When I put it in my pocket, sometime I don't even notice it's there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've been looking at PPK's for a long time. Their size is similar to the Ortgies I like so much, just not as smoothly rounded - some of which is actually a good thing (the Ortgies will bite if you grip too high - no beavertail to protect the hand).


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I partly disagree.    A friend of mine runs a gun store and and teaches Michigan CPL.   His course reqires full magazine or wheel fired from every caliber he stocks under .41 magnum.  Very often, he'll have women bring their own .22lr semi auto because anything else seemed big and somebody said it would hurt them.  after firing several larger frame handguns,  opinions usually change.  Same thing with my wife. We to the fancy pants range and tried ten common pistols of varying size/ caliber.  At first she was scared of " the big ones" but she couldn't wield/ didn't approve of snubs, sub compact, or the smaller compacts;  especially the little. 380 and 9mm.  Her favorite was my Glock 20 (10mm) so- called magnum. Just because she could control it better.  Then, there's an acquaintance of mine from Texas  who, while checking out from an executive protection gig, confronted a 6.5 credemore in a large open hall with a 32 keltec.   Luckily another officer was well armed and two hours late in going home.  Everyone in his company now carries full frame. 45's mandatory.


There are exceptions where one caliber is better than another (more rounds in the average 9mm, more penetration in .357, etc.). In most use-of-force circumstances, being competent and comfortable with the gun is more influential than the caliber until you get to extreme comparisons (.22LR vs. .45ACP, for instance). Caliber does matter, so please don't hear me saying it doesn't. I'm not sure any handgun is a good option against a 6.5 Creedmoor (handgun vs. rifle is usually a bad idea for one or the other, depending upon context). And the difference in caliber doesn't really seem relevant to that situation, unless the guy holding the rifle is hard to bring down. Being able to shoot accurately from a distance and behind cover seems more relevant. For me, in that situation, I'd rather have my old Glock 17.


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## Runs With Fire (Aug 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> There are exceptions where one caliber is better than another (more rounds in the average 9mm, more penetration in .357, etc.). In most use-of-force circumstances, being competent and comfortable with the gun is more influential than the caliber until you get to extreme comparisons (.22LR vs. .45ACP, for instance). Caliber does matter, so please don't hear me saying it doesn't. I'm not sure any handgun is a good option against a 6.5 Creedmoor (handgun vs. rifle is usually a bad idea for one or the other, depending upon context). And the difference in caliber doesn't really seem relevant to that situation, unless the guy holding the rifle is hard to bring down. Being able to shoot accurately from a distance and behind cover seems more relevant. For me, in that situation, I'd rather have my old Glock 17.


That's exactly it, especially the distance part.  In a handgun, I'm not looking at size,  I'm looking at max effective range.  Being accurate and having adequate lethality at longer ranges.  I'd say 100 yds maximum,  10-50 yds preferably.  I know most shootings are under fifteen feet, and I'm supposed to get away if possible,  but as a dad, I'm more likely to engage if it means ending a threat.   I am talking with the security team at my church about carrying during my sunday school class.  In that situation,  there is no retreating with 20-30 first graders.   Mine is a corner classroom with about 50 yards both  directions down the hall from the center of the room.  I would need to be able to handle 50 yards and shooting through my classroom windows. no threat of over penetration as all walls are concrete block and brick. They recomend a full size 40  as minimum.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 11, 2017)

*Here is the thing to always remember.*  If you do not have it on you then it isn't doing you any good.  Way to many people want the biggest gun possible with the highest caliber.  However, lugging that 45 around all day and concealing it well can be really difficult for most people and after awhile they might not carry it.

Plus if you can't shoot a 45 well then you probably shouldn't be carrying it.  However if you can carry and conceal it easily and you are proficient with it then it would be a great fit for you.

People are different.  We come in different shapes and sizes and varying degrees of skill when it comes to firearms proficiency.  So each and everyone of us should carry what we are comfortable with and proficient with.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 11, 2017)

Everyone I know who has a CPL or CCW or whatever the equivalent is, doesn't always carry.

I've had a few people argue with me and say they carry 100% of the time.  I  call BS.  No you do not.

It's too hot.  The gun is too big.   It prints through your summer clothes.  You're wearing shorts.  Blah blah blah blah blah.

You don't carry 100%.

And even if you do, MOST people with permits do not.

That's a fact.  A fact.  Argue all you like, it's a fact.

The gun you do not have with you will not save you.

The gun you do have with you MAY NOT save you either.

But it's a damned sight better than the one you left behind because it wasn't working with your jodhpurs that day.

Big calibers.  Very nice.  Fashionable guns.  Lovely.  The gun-du-jour and the caliber all the hip dudes are talking about impresses me not at all.

And three carry guns including a sawed-off AR in a briefcase?  Are you woofing me?  That's not being prepared, that's a walking mental illness right there.


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## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I've had a few people argue with me and say they carry 100% of the time. I call BS. No you do not.



Excluding when I'm in bed....I am carrying.

When I get up in the morning either my Glock 43 goes in my waistband or my S&W Bodyguard goes in my pocket.....no exceptions.



On second thought, do take it out when I work out but I do carry the bodyguard when I go running or walking.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 11, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Excluding when I'm in bed....I am carrying.
> 
> When I get up in the morning either my Glock 43 goes in my waistband or my S&W Bodyguard goes in my pocket.....no exceptions.
> 
> ...



No exceptions - except there are exceptions.  That's my point.

The best gun to have is the one you carry.

And while I am not putting you down for not carrying in bed or in the shower or whilst making sweet sweet love or whatever, I am saying that some of these gigantic boomsticks are not going to be carried by most people.  Feel free to exclude yourself from 'most people' but yeah, it's most people, and by a huge margin.  You're not the typical CCW person, you're the rare exception.

I spent too many years in law enforcement, too much time with fellow gun-nuts, too much general curiosity ("Dude, are you carrying today?  No?  Why not?") to believe otherwise.

I am also singularly unimpressed with the plethora of OMG super cool whatever whatever tacticool guns and calibers.  Every year it's the newest fashion, the newest accessory, and it's all runway models clutching their beaded purses as far as I can see.  It's fetishism is what.  It's beard-bro hipster crapola of the finest kind.

I wish people would take concealed carry as seriously, no, more seriously, than religion.  It's a somber, sobering, experience, and you don't take the f'ing thing off.  You train with it, you carry it, and you STOP getting all fetishy about it.  It's a good, valuable, trustworthy, tool.  It's a potential life-saver MAYBE.  All these arguments about 380 versus 9mm versus 41 cal versus 45 ACP versus blah blah blah make me want to vomit.  Find a gun you're going to actually freaking carry.  Buy it.  Train with it.  Have it with you always.  Done.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 11, 2017)

Heh.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 11, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Here is the thing to always remember.*  If you do not have it on you then it isn't doing you any good.  Way to many people want the biggest gun possible with the highest caliber.  However, lugging that 45 around all day and concealing it well can be really difficult for most people and after awhile they might not carry it.
> 
> Plus if you can't shoot a 45 well then you probably shouldn't be carrying it.  However if you can carry and conceal it easily and you are proficient with it then it would be a great fit for you.
> 
> People are different.  We come in different shapes and sizes and varying degrees of skill when it comes to firearms proficiency.  So each and everyone of us should carry what we are comfortable with and proficient with.


That second paragraph was why I got rid of my 1911 Officer's. It carried well, but my shooting with it wasn't nearly as good as with other guns. Still better than others I've shot with, and I _*really*_ liked the gun, but practicality won out.

Unfortunately, I now can't practically carry on a regular basis.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 11, 2017)

I used to carry daily.  I don't now.  Felt a little naked when I first quit.  Then I didn't miss it much, and now not at all.  I have considered going for a concealed carry, but I'm not so sure I want to.  Granted there are a lot more nuts on the streets, but I try to spend time where they aren't.

But if I do return to carrying, I am not sure what I would carry.  A .45 auto is surprisingly easy to conceal and carries plenty of firepower with modern hollow point rounds.

A 380 round is still potent with a hollow point round, and even more concealable.

A .45 long round hasn't lost its killing power in the many years it has been around.  The weapons to shoot it aren't so concealable.  But if you fire at a miscreant and miss, the noise will probably make him think he has been shot and give you time to aim properly. 

The two guns/rounds that scare me the most, are the most concealable.  They are .22 and .25.  Both guns, but especially the .22 (non-jacketed) are known to ricochet at every bone they get introduced to.  Given the right path, you can almost bleed out before you hit the ground.    Don't know why there is such fascination with big guns/rounds except for specific circumstances.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That second paragraph was why I got rid of my 1911 Officer's. It carried well, but my shooting with it wasn't nearly as good as with other guns. Still better than others I've shot with, and I _*really*_ liked the gun, but practicality won out.
> 
> Unfortunately, I now can't practically carry on a regular basis.



2nd time I have seen the reference to 1911 Officer weapon.  How did that differ from the common 1911A1 the US Army used?

EDIT:  I looked it up.  I once met a guy while in MA in 1970.  I think he came from NH.  He made a short barreled .45.  It was neat, but it was only more concealable due to the shortened barrel.  I just decided I didn't want to have one.  I guess I need to get out more.  I had never heard of the 1911 Officers.

Besides, I had been carrying .45 concealed for a couple of years in Vietnam.  I was quite comfortable with it.


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## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Don't know why there is such fascination with big guns/rounds except for specific circumstances.



Because big guns provide better penetration and do more damage lessening your need for precision during a gun fight.

With a .22 you better be lucky


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 11, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> 2nd time I have seen the reference to 1911 Officer weapon.  How did that differ from the common 1911A1 the US Army used?
> 
> EDIT:  I looked it up.  I once met a guy while in MA in 1970.  I think he came from NH.  He made a short barreled .45.  It was neat, but it was only more concealable due to the shortened barrel.  I just decided I didn't want to have one.  I guess I need to get out more.  I had never heard of the 1911 Officers.


It's smaller. 3.5" barrel, I think, and 1 round fewer in the mag. Makes it lighter and easier to conceal. Also makes it less forgiving with .45 (and likely with .40) than a full-size 1911. Also note that I may be using the wrong term for the model. I've heard references to both Officer and Commander models, and I'm not sure if they are the same thing - I seem to recall some 1911 folks explaining thnere was a difference between the two designations. I'm also not sure whether my Springfield was approximately spec for either one. I seem to remember Springfield had it labeled as one or the other.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 11, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Because big guns provide better penetration and do more damage lessening your need for precision during a gun fight.
> 
> With a .22 you better be lucky



That said, I know of two GIs getting shot with a .45.  Both at point blank range.  One in the stomach.  He grabbed his stomach, protested that the MP shot him, and wilted.  The other, granted high on pills (which I was always told was what the .45 was designed to stop), was first pistol whipped, then shot in the thigh, but kept up a good fight.  An MP shot him again, the 2nd time in the foot (lots of bones to interact with) and kept fighting for a few moments, then sat down and declared he was a little tired, but after he had rested, he was going to get up and really beat the crap out of the two MPs.

The .45 is a pretty big caliber.

EDIT:  Barring striking a bone, I would say .22 or 25 have a lot of penetration.  They don't however have the weight over all, just for their size.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 11, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Because big guns provide better penetration and do more damage lessening your need for precision during a gun fight.
> 
> With a .22 you better be lucky



Being a good shot will suffice.  No luck needed then.  I am a good shot, but better with a rifle than a pistol.  Still, I don't do bad.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 11, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Because big guns provide better penetration and do more damage lessening your need for precision during a gun fight.
> 
> With a .22 you better be lucky



If you're in a gunfight, you'd better be lucky.

I agree that a big round has, in general, more 'stopping power' than a smaller round.

But that's just one facet.  An important one, but still there are other points to be considered.

The first is what I said already.  Bigger calibers, bigger guns.  Tradeoff for a smaller gun with a larger caliber, usually in terms of ability to control the weapon while firing.  Bigger guns tend to be carried concealed less often.  They're big, after all.  Heavy, generally.  They become a PITA.  They don't hide well with beach wear.  Etc.

The second is realistic threat evaluation.  I don't carry a chemical weapon gas mask because I evaluate that I won't be attacked by a nerve agent on the street, and if I was, I would not have sufficient warning or time to don and clear such a mask before I had taken a lethal dose.

So.  What threat does one imagine they need multiple large-cap magazines, more than one firearm, or uber-large calibers for, exactly?

Is a .22 or a 25ACP an unacceptable round for self-defense?  No.  People can and have defended themselves with such rounds.  In terms of one-shot lethality, sure, it's clear they offer less power.  But they offer other advantages, such as light weight and concealability.    Again, any gun that you have on you is better than the one out in your car or left in the dresser at home.

Eternal arguments about one-shot stops with various calibers misses the point, in my estimation, and often amounts to little more than gun-fetish masturbation.  Two decades ago, it was the wonder-nine guns that everyone was losing their minds over.  Then .40 and .41 and OMG Desert Eagle, take me now Lord.  Whatever.  Figure out the realistic threat, evaluation your own ability or desire to protect against it, and then train, train, train, and carry, carry, carry.  A 22 is fine if you'll carry it with you everywhere and every time you go out and train hard with it.

Yes, you have to be lucky.  We all do.


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## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> EDIT:  Barring striking a bone, I would say .22 or 25 have a lot of penetration.  They don't however have the weight over all, just for their size.



And that's the a big part of the problem.  Aside from soft tissue those rounds penetration and energy is effected to greatly by other things.

Also the wound channels are smaller and do less damage requiring more precision.

With those you have to hope that nothing negatively effects the bullet and that you get perfect shot placement.  A 9mm - .45 caliber are much more efficient calibers compared to the .22 or .25.


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## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Being a good shot will suffice.  No luck needed then.  I am a good shot, but better with a rifle than a pistol.  Still, I don't do bad.



Doesn't matter.

With the adrenaline and blood pressure spike along with the fear....you aren't making pinpoint shots.

I've been part of enough shootings investigations to know that perfect shot ain't happening.

Even when we do sims round training and do force on force you see the shots spread out and almost none are perfect.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 11, 2017)

A derringer is called a 'belly gun' for a good reason.  The idea is you will be engaging at a very close distance with one.   Draw, shove it in the bad guy's belly (or eye or ear or etc) and fire. If that is not the case, then a derringer is the wrong gun for the encounter.  The question then is what kind of encounter does not suppose will occur?


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## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If you're in a gunfight, you'd better be lucky.
> 
> I agree that a big round has, in general, more 'stopping power' than a smaller round.
> 
> ...



Disagree.

When I fire my 9mm or .40 cal I don't have to hope it can punch through my attackers cell phone....I know it's going through.  I'm not depending on luck to get that round through.

When I fire my 9 mm or .40 cal I'm not hoping or depending on getting a good deflection off a bone....I know it's going through causing damage.  I'm relying on my ability....not luck.

And 20 years ago finding small easy concealed 9mm, .40 cal, or .45 was difficult, but not anymore.  There are a bunch of guns in these calibers that are just as easily concealed as .22s.


It's not about one shot stops....it's about having a better tool to depend on.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 11, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Doesn't matter.
> 
> With the adrenaline and blood pressure spike along with the fear....you aren't making pinpoint shots.
> 
> ...



Then is a larger caliber really such a big advantage, if you can't hit vital areas?



CB Jones said:


> Disagree.
> 
> When I fire my 9mm or .40 cal I don't have to hope it can punch through my attackers cell phone....I know it's going through.  I'm not depending on luck to get that round through.
> 
> ...



All good points.  But really we're kind of nit picking each other don't you think?  If I have a small caliber such as a .25 auto, and it goes between your ribs, nicks your heart, and goes out your other ribs, you will be as dead as if I used a 50 cal machine gun bullet following the same path. 

So should I always carry a 50 cal pistol hoping to follow the same path, knowing it will be more destructive?  No.

There are just too many variables to consider, the size, weight, and speed of the bullet, the anatomy of the victim, the shooter's experience and mental makeup, and experience with the weapon used.  I don't think we can do much more than speak in generalities.  I can dispute your beliefs and you mine.  I am sure we can each come up with real life anecdotes to dispute each other.  Fun to debate, but not to take to seriously.


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## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> But really we're kind of nit picking each other don't you think? If I have a small caliber such as a .25 auto, and it goes between your ribs, nicks your heart, and goes out your other ribs, you will be as dead as if I used a 50 cal machine gun bullet following the same path.



Will you think it is nitpicking when your .25 auto round hits my phone and a rib and fails to penetrate my chest cavity while my 9 mm goes through your phone, rib and lung?

Hey this has the ability to kill you:






But if you ask me what's a good gun for self defense I'm not gonna tell you that a Wogdon Flintlock is a good choice.

Just like a .22 or a .25 is not a good choice when now they make 9mm and .40s that are just as small but are more effective and efficient.

Fact is .22 and .25 are not good calibers for self defense.


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## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

@oftheherd1,

If you feel comfortable carrying a .25 that is fine.

I just don't think it's a good idea to suggest that caliber to someone who is looking to get a CCW when we know there is much better guns out there for that purpose.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 11, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Then is a larger caliber really such a big advantage, if you can't hit vital areas?



cant remember the specifics but recently there was a shooting where the victim was shot in the shoulder, the fragmentation bounced all inside the chest cavity puncturing lungs and his heart.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 11, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> @oftheherd1,
> 
> If you feel comfortable carrying a .25 that is fine.
> 
> I just don't think it's a good idea to suggest that caliber to someone who is looking to get a CCW when we know there is much better guns out there for that purpose.


I think the way some of us look at it is a continuum. A 22 is probably better than a punch (well, better than _*my*_ punch, anyway), as far as capacity to put someone down with a hit to the body (variously better and worse on the bony head, depending whether it hits bone or not). A .380 is probably better than a .22. A .45 is probably better than a .380.

So, I agree that a .22 or .25 is not a great choice. I do think it's better, in the moment it's needed, than not having one, so long as the person who chose it was aware of its limitations.


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## Charlemagne (Aug 11, 2017)

I started off with a CZ P-01 for CCW, before after selling it and trying a few different options.  About a year and a half ago, I treated myself to another CZ P-01, this time with the Defensive Carry package from Cajun Gun Works, and some upgraded sights.  

Never should have sold the first one, but I guess you live and learn.​


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## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> So, I agree that a .22 or .25 is not a great choice. I do think it's better, in the moment it's needed, than not having one, so long as the person who chose it was aware of its limitations.



Absolutely it's better than nothing.

But chance favors the prepared mind, so in preparation I'm not choosing the "better than nothing" weapon.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 11, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Absolutely it's better than nothing.
> 
> But chance favors the prepared mind, so in preparation I'm not choosing the "better than nothing" weapon.


Agreed. If I'm carrying, I'm carrying more than a .22 or .25, unless nothing else is available in the situation. I view the small calibers like a kubotan - sometimes it's just best the tool I can manage to take with me. If it's not, I haven't much use for it.


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## Charlemagne (Aug 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. If I'm carrying, I'm carrying more than a .22 or .25, unless nothing else is available in the situation. I view the small calibers like a kubotan - sometimes it's just best the tool I can manage to take with me. If it's not, I haven't much use for it.



I'd have to agree with that as well.  With good shot placement smaller calibers can and will end the fight quickly.  However, in a stressful situation and with a moving target (the other guy gets a vote) a critical hit with a small caliber is not guaranteed to end the fight immediately.  The attacker might bleed out an hour later, but if he had time to kill you or your loved one before doing so, what was the point?  To me, a 9mm and up, with the correct round choice, is the way to go.  

The same thing is true for HD guns such as a shotgun.  Sure, someone might bleed out from birdshot at close range, but there are also stories of guys getting shot in the face with and living.  Shooting the home invader with #1 buckshot and up (my personal preference being OOBuck) has a far better chance of ending things NOW.  And, if you are in a situation where you have to use your firearm for defensive purposes (God forbid), that is the point.  

Anyone who is thinking of CCW should get Massad Ayoob's books and spend a good amount of time reading them.  This is the one I would start with: 

https://smile.amazon.com/Gun-Digest...8&qid=1502635580&sr=8-4&keywords=Massad+Ayoob


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## Buka (Aug 13, 2017)

Each to his own, you carry what you want, I'll carry what I want.

I carried everywhere, on duty and off, in court, in churches, in schools, at the beach in a bathing suit, in bars, hospitals, on air planes, in government buildings, everywhere, for years. All legally, mind you. 

But I still hate guns. Hate gun lovers, gun haters, the NRA, the anti-NRA folks, I even hate threads about guns. I hate everything and everybody that has to do with guns.

Yet....I still carry all the time. Ain't easy being an old hypocrite. Gets confusing sometimes.


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## Runs With Fire (Aug 14, 2017)

I love my guns. The only thing that relaxes me like burning up a brick of 22 is a calm day fishing.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 14, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> @oftheherd1,
> 
> If you feel comfortable carrying a .25 that is fine.
> 
> I just don't think it's a good idea to suggest that caliber to someone who is looking to get a CCW when we know there is much better guns out there for that purpose.



It would be a consideration due to how easily it can be concealed, and the damage it can do if strikes the right spots. 

I know a man who was head shot with a .25.  The bullet went straight through his brain and lodged against the far inside of his skull.  The first time I saw him after the shooting, he had a large portion of his left frontal bone missing and a depression where it had been.  The next time I saw him that had received reconstructive surgery.  You would not know he had been shot there.  He said knowing his prior physical condition, he knew he had lost a little physical coordination, but others could not tell.

A man with him was shot through the chest with the same .25.  He ran about 50 yards, dropped, and died.

I hear what all of you are saying.  I don't disagree except that any gun can kill.  None should be ignored.  The important things imho, are practicing enough with the weapon to be able to shoot accurately, and telling yourself in your mind often enough what is justification for using a gun, and steeling yourself to use it immediately when that justification is encountered. 

But isn't that true for all guns and calibers?


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## lklawson (Aug 17, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> My wife will be twenty-one this month. Bought her a pistol and going to go through a cpl course as a birthday present. I got her a gen 2 Remington R51.


I own an R51.  I was an early adopter and bought a Gen 1, traded it for the 1911R1 and, when the Gen 2 came out, I bought one.  Some of the R51's have some quirks.  The two that stand out are a quirk with the magazines (may not affect you - shoot it first) and a quirk with the Leade/Freebore which will probably affect you if you hand load.  I don't recall what the policy here on MT for recommending off-site forums but I'm on an R51 specific forum which you might find helpful.  PM me and I'll link for you if you're interested.

You should also be aware that the R51 sights are set, from the factory, to Center Hold, not Target.  I discuss it in my review of the gun here:
Review - Remington R51




> For myself, I have a n old Glock 20 with night sights.


How old?  Tritium sights have a "best if used before" date.



> I've been ridiculed for concealed carrying a full size pistol and for carrying a 10mm.  But it conceals well.


Meh.  If you can conceal it then it works.




> I also open carry when it won't cause a fuss. I have big hands and I shoot alot so the larger frame of my glock doesn't seem like overkill.  My position has been to carry the most firepower you can fully utalize. Let' trade opinions.


My opinion on what gun you should carry?  I have two and only two requirements for your carry gun.
1) Your gun must be reliable.  It should go bang when you press the trigger, every time you press the trigger, and only when you press the trigger.
2) You must be reliable.  You should only deploy the gun when you are legally justified in doing so, deliver bullets to what your intended target is, and only deliver bullets to your intended target.

I don't care what brand you prefer, what caliber you like, where on your body you carry, or how you carry.

I don't care about the brand of gun, as long as YOUR GUN is reliable, it can be a "cheap junk brand Saturday night special."  I don't care what caliber you prefer, from .22LR & .25ACP, up through .460 Rowland because, statistically speaking, there's darn little difference between calibers when it comes to "making the bad guy stop attacking you" and, in fact, (depending on your preferred study) has between a 60% and 90% success rate without ever being fired.

Buy what you want.  Carry what you want.  As long as you're safe and your gun is safe, it doesn't matter.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Aug 17, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I would love to have one of these. This gun is not popular in US. It was very popular in my father's time back in China. You can switch between automatic and semi-automatic. When you switch to automatic, you can pull trigger just once and all 20 bullets will shot out.


They're still popular but pretty much are all in collectors hands now.  The ones that weren't worn out or blown up by over-pressure ammo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Aug 17, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> 380 is fine. Never much liked the 9mm para. Do like 7.65x25 tok and 9x18.


Are you a Makarov collector?  I've got an IJ70 18AH with 3 mags that I'm looking to divest myself of.  They're kinda hard to come by these days.  If you're interested send me a PM.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Aug 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Will you think it is nitpicking when your .25 auto round hits my phone and a rib and fails to penetrate my chest cavity while my 9 mm goes through your phone, rib and lung?


Platt was notably unimpressed by 9mm Winchester Silvertips.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 17, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Then is a larger caliber really such a big advantage, if you can't hit vital areas?
> ...
> I am sure we can each come up with real life anecdotes to dispute each other.  Fun to debate, but not to take to seriously.






CB Jones said:


> Will you think it is nitpicking when your .25 auto round hits my phone and a rib and fails to penetrate my chest cavity while my 9 mm goes through your phone, rib and lung?
> 
> Just like a .22 or a .25 is not a good choice when now they make 9mm and .40s that are just as small but are more effective and efficient.
> 
> Fact is .22 and .25 are not good calibers for self defense.



I was going to let this thread go, but I guess it still has some life.  

So ...

Why would I shoot your phone if you are the one I want to shoot?  If they make 9mm and .40s that are as small as a .25, I need to start looking at pistols again.  Seriously?

I agree a .22 is less good in general.  But any gun can kill.  If I have a gun I am skilled at using, and I think you are a real threat to my life, I would not suggest you discount any gun in my hands.  Nor expect me to aim through anything but clothing.  That is if I think the only way I can safely end the threat is to kill you.

That is all assuming of course, I did not think my MA would handle the situation.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 18, 2017)

Buka said:


> God, I so hate guns. Even having worked with them my whole career, I fricken' hate them.
> 
> But I like to carry a Raven 25. Why? Because it's the only gun I've never seen jam in nearly forty years, and I don't miss with it. If I have to use it in civilian life, I don't care about knock down power, I just want to get their attention.



So than why do you carry them or work with them if you hate them?


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## Runs With Fire (Aug 18, 2017)

lklawson said:


> I own an R51.  I was an early adopter and bought a Gen 1, traded it for the 1911R1 and, when the Gen 2 came out, I bought one.  Some of the R51's have some quirks.  The two that stand out are a quirk with the magazines (may not affect you - shoot it first) and a quirk with the Leade/Freebore which will probably affect you if you hand load.  I don't recall what the policy here on MT for recommending off-site forums but I'm on an R51 specific forum which you might find helpful.  PM me and I'll link for you if you're interested.
> 
> You should also be aware that the R51 sights are set, from the factory, to Center Hold, not Target.  I discuss it in my review of the gun here:
> Review - Remington R51
> ...



Read that review, I agree with your conclusions.    I haven't had any problems  with the r51.  It's about my favorite pistol ever.  More accurate than my glock until 50 yards, then they're  bout equal.   Got it used, so it's broken in but still a bit crispy.

  Target hold always throws me off.  I have a Heritage  revolver, took me forever to make a habit of aiming below the point of impact.  It realy throws me off.  Just bought a new caplock muzzleloader,  set at target hold.  Nearly took last place at the shoot, shot over the target at 100 yds. 

The glock is a gen 2. Tritium is dead.  I want to try and paint em white.


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