# Opinions on Lenny Sly's Aikido Combative concepts?



## JP3

Lenny Sly is apparently a longtime aikido person, getting intot he youtube arena with a group near to Chicago, I think it is. He's got a lot of videos online talking about coming out of traditional aikido feel & practice and returning to a more personal combat art format (I'd call his stuff aikijutsu, certainly, myself).  I've some opinions from both a good/bad perspective on theories, but not on his practical applications which I think are pretty spot-on. I'd like to ask you what your collective opinions are.

Here is one video link which will get you over to YouTube to one of his videos, about aikido defense in real 2-punch attack-defense situation.






Let me know what you think!

Thx,
J


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## JP3

Shoot, I don't think I got the link in there.  Hrm...

Well, on youtube.com you can do a search for Lenny Sly Combative Concepts and his channel will come up and you can just pick a video from the growing list to check out. Apologies for my lack of web-ability.


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## drop bear

The other guy is still throwing himself.


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## ShawnP

put your cursor on the "youtube" logo at the bottom right and right click and choose "Open Link in New Tab" OR "Open Link in New Window" and this will take you to the youtube channel.


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## ShawnP

i liked this a lot, this is actually what i want to train in some day, if my health gets better. Thanks for posting.






i dont really agree with the attitude nor the language he uses i like the realism of what is being done in the class.


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## punisher73

I've watched a couple of the videos, he is from the Tenshin school (dojo that Seagal taught at).  It isn't really a "style" of aikido as it is an approach.  He makes it sound as if it is a seperate style of aikido.

As to the "throwing themselves" comment.  That is always the hard part of aikido.  If the person does the technique correctly, you throw yourself to avoid getting hurt.  Also, many times, you "throw yourself" when the technique is applied to learn how to breakfall properly etc.  The danger lies in the training when people throw themselves for no reason when the technique is not properly applied.


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## slink

punisher73 said:


> I've watched a couple of the videos, he is from the Tenshin school (dojo that Seagal taught at).  It isn't really a "style" of aikido as it is an approach.  He makes it sound as if it is a seperate style of aikido.
> 
> As to the "throwing themselves" comment.  That is always the hard part of aikido.  If the person does the technique correctly, you throw yourself to avoid getting hurt.  Also, many times, you "throw yourself" when the technique is applied to learn how to breakfall properly etc.  The danger lies in the training when people throw themselves for no reason when the technique is not properly applied.


When you contrast what gets taught in a lot of Aikido schools against what the Tenshin folks are doing I think that a case can be made that they are in fact different styles.


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## hoshin1600

As far as aikido goes I like the way he does technique.
As far as the attitude I can't stand it. Drives me up the wall.
I also don't like the fact that he slams my old teacher who passed away long ago,albeit without directly naming him and the organization.


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## Kung Fu Wang

JP3 said:


> Let me know what you think!


To compare the following 3 methods, IMO, 3 > 2 > 1.

1. Your opponent's legs are free.
2. You use your leg to block/trap his leg/legs.
3. You use your leg to kick/hook/sweep/scoop/... his leg/legs off the ground.

If you let your opponent to have 2 free legs to move around, he will have better chance to escape your attack and counter you. The more "leg skill" that you can add into your attack, the better result that your attack will have.


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## JowGaWolf

lol.. He must have been talking to Hanzou from here. Highly aggressive and fed up with someone who commented about his videos lol.  That pure TMA frustration that he's showing ha ha ha.


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## punisher73

slink said:


> When you contrast what gets taught in a lot of Aikido schools against what the Tenshin folks are doing I think that a case can be made that they are in fact different styles.



It is Aikikai Aikido.  Just because you train in a more aggressive manner than other schools doesn't make it a different style.  Now, if based on their training method they change how the techniques are done or change the system's approach like some other styles of Aikido, then "yes" call it by a different name.


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## adadses ginsberg

Sly is a knuckle head who studied a martial art like Aikido, didn't get the 'yin and yang' or the 'aiki' element, and now wants it to be like krav maga. Where are the pivots around the point of contact? Just shouting a lot just makes you look like a loudmouth embarrassment.


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## GPaul

To be called Aikido, there has to be aiki and I don't see evidence of aiki. It's all force meeting force.There is no presentation of yin in the videos. In one video, I winced as he performed Ikkyo. I winced because the ikkyo was so inexpert, unnecessary force was placed on the elbow joint, endangering uke. O'Sensei admonished us to be careful not to injure uke.

There is some validity regarding the quality of Aikido being taught. In large part, there are too many shodan teaching Aikido. The literal translation of shodan is beginner. And too many beginners call themselves Sensei. An example is in my backyard. A Tenshin dojo recently opened nearby and the teacher is shodan. Shodan! He'd had rank only a year or so before opening his dojo. What qualified Sensei allows a shodan to teach unsupervised?


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## Gerry Seymour

GPaul said:


> To be called Aikido, there has to be aiki and I don't see evidence of aiki. It's all force meeting force.There is no presentation of yin in the videos. In one video, I winced as he performed Ikkyo. I winced because the ikkyo was so inexpert, unnecessary force was placed on the elbow joint, endangering uke. O'Sensei admonished us to be careful not to injure uke.
> 
> There is some validity regarding the quality of Aikido being taught. In large part, there are too many shodan teaching Aikido. The literal translation of shodan is beginner. And too many beginners call themselves Sensei. An example is in my backyard. A Tenshin dojo recently opened nearby and the teacher is shodan. Shodan! He'd had rank only a year or so before opening his dojo. What qualified Sensei allows a shodan to teach unsupervised?


That depends which definition of "aiki" you are using. It certainly doesn't meet the definition used by Ueshiba late in his life. There is a lot of NOT meeting force with force in this guy's videos, which should be obvious.

For my part (missed this when it was originally posted, so I'll pitch in now @JP3 ), I like the execution of the techniques better than the softer execution I see in a lot of Aikido schools. They still seem to not be using (unless it's in videos I missed) much in the way of basic strikes and some of the body throws (where you don't need arms, like a basic hip throw). And, although he goes on in some detail about how their yokomenuchi is different, they're still not using punches from uke for most (any?) of their attacks, which just drives me nuts.

Oh, and his demonstration uke(s) have fantastic breakfalls.


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## GPaul

gpseymour said:


> That depends which definition of "aiki" you are using. It certainly doesn't meet the definition used by Ueshiba late in his life. There is a lot of NOT meeting force with force in this guy's videos, which should be obvious.
> 
> For my part (missed this when it was originally posted, so I'll pitch in now @JP3 ), I like the execution of the techniques better than the softer execution I see in a lot of Aikido schools. They still seem to not be using (unless it's in videos I missed) much in the way of basic strikes and some of the body throws (where you don't need arms, like a basic hip throw). And, although he goes on in some detail about how their yokomenuchi is different, they're still not using punches from uke for most (any?) of their attacks, which just drives me nuts.
> 
> Oh, and his demonstration uke(s) have fantastic breakfalls.



I've experienced a number of schools of Aikido, including some independent. What I see in the tapes doesn't jell with these schools. To be clear, I've had teachers who can hold their own in a scrap as well as those who can't. Anyway, what he is advocating doesn't correspond with anything I've experienced with many teachers, including those who were students of O'Sensei.


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## Gerry Seymour

GPaul said:


> I've experienced a number of schools of Aikido, including some independent. What I see in the tapes doesn't jell with these schools. To be clear, I've had teachers who can hold their own in a scrap as well as those who can't. Anyway, what he is advocating doesn't correspond with anything I've experienced with many teachers, including those who were students of O'Sensei.


As I said, it depends which definition of "aiki" you use. I've yet to find two instructors who agree completely on that term. By one of the definitions I've heard from Kondo Sensei of Daito-ryu, there's a fair amount of aiki going on there. By at least one of the definitions I use, there is. By the other, only part of the time.

That what he does doesn't look much like what is seen in Aikikai, I'll agree with. And JP's original thought of referring to it as "Aikijutsu" instead fits the mindset of most in Ueshiba's art. In other Aikido arts, the definition can be quite different.


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## GPaul

gpseymour said:


> As I said, it depends which definition of "aiki" you use. I've yet to find two instructors who agree completely on that term. By one of the definitions I've heard from Kondo Sensei of Daito-ryu, there's a fair amount of aiki going on there. By at least one of the definitions I use, there is. By the other, only part of the time.
> 
> That what he does doesn't look much like what is seen in Aikikai, I'll agree with. And JP's original thought of referring to it as "Aikijutsu" instead fits the mindset of most in Ueshiba's art. In other Aikido arts, the definition can be quite different.



O'Sensei called his Aikido The Art of Peace. He taught that Aikido is meant to neutralize an attacker and not harm him or her; at least cause as little harm as possible. Further, O'Sensei taught us to always practice with a smile on our face. Is his practice intended to harm the attacker or neutralize the attacker? It's easier to hurt an attacker than to neutralize while not causing harm. Does he smile during practice?


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## Gerry Seymour

GPaul said:


> O'Sensei called his Aikido The Art of Peace. He taught that Aikido is meant to neutralize an attacker and not harm him or her; at least cause as little harm as possible. Further, O'Sensei taught us to always practice with a smile on our face. Is his practice intended to harm the attacker or neutralize the attacker? It's easier to hurt an attacker than to neutralize while not causing harm. Does he smile during practice?


That was his later interpretation of aiki. In his early teachings, there are stories of students being injured and the power applied in the techniques. This is why early students tend to have produced different offshoots than later ones.


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## Martial D

JP3 said:


> Lenny Sly is apparently a longtime aikido person, getting intot he youtube arena with a group near to Chicago, I think it is. He's got a lot of videos online talking about coming out of traditional aikido feel & practice and returning to a more personal combat art format (I'd call his stuff aikijutsu, certainly, myself).  I've some opinions from both a good/bad perspective on theories, but not on his practical applications which I think are pretty spot-on. I'd like to ask you what your collective opinions are.
> 
> Here is one video link which will get you over to YouTube to one of his videos, about aikido defense in real 2-punch attack-defense situation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know what you think!
> 
> Thx,
> J


I tend to judge these sorts of videos more on the way the attacker attacks than what the response is. If anyone attacked me the way that guy is attacking he might beat me, but only because I can't stop laughing.

Other than that I can't really say.


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## hoshin1600

GPaul said:


> O'Sensei called his Aikido The Art of Peace. He taught that Aikido is meant to neutralize an attacker and not harm him or her; at least cause as little harm as possible. Further, O'Sensei taught us to always practice with a smile on our face. Is his practice intended to harm the attacker or neutralize the attacker? It's easier to hurt an attacker than to neutralize while not causing harm. Does he smile during practice?


I understand your point however if we put names aside ( aikido ,aikijiutsu)  this guy has purposely stepped outside of the tradition, thus we cannot judge what he does by the traditional standard. That would be judging an apple on how much it looks and tastes like a banana.  His videos show he has a distaste for most Ueshiba aikido and has adopted a more aggressive method. Traditionalists may think this then is not aiki and not aikido but that was not the original question from the OP as I understood it.  So to judge this guy's practice we need to account for the modified intent.


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## GPaul

hoshin1600 said:


> I understand your point however if we put names aside ( aikido ,aikijiutsu)  this guy has purposely stepped outside of the tradition, thus we cannot judge what he does by the traditional standard. That would be judging an apple on how much it looks and tastes like a banana.  His videos show he has a distaste for most Ueshiba aikido and has adopted a more aggressive method. Traditionalists may think this then is not aiki and not aikido but that was not the original question from the OP as I understood it.  So to judge this guy's practice we need to account for the modified intent.





hoshin1600 said:


> I understand your point however if we put names aside ( aikido ,aikijiutsu)  this guy has purposely stepped outside of the tradition, thus we cannot judge what he does by the traditional standard. That would be judging an apple on how much it looks and tastes like a banana.  His videos show he has a distaste for most Ueshiba aikido and has adopted a more aggressive method. Traditionalists may think this then is not aiki and not aikido but that was not the original question from the OP as I understood it.  So to judge this guy's practice we need to account for the modified intent.



If we are not allowed to judge this guy by the traditional standards of Aikido as put forth by the founder of Aikido, the corollary holds. That is, he cannot make a claim that he is practicing or teaching Aikido.


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## drop bear

GPaul said:


> O'Sensei called his Aikido The Art of Peace. He taught that Aikido is meant to neutralize an attacker and not harm him or her; at least cause as little harm as possible. Further, O'Sensei taught us to always practice with a smile on our face. Is his practice intended to harm the attacker or neutralize the attacker? It's easier to hurt an attacker than to neutralize while not causing harm. Does he smile during practice?



Sounds like BJJ not aikido.

Does the guy in the vid do anything reall different to any other Aikido guy? Doesnt look different to me.


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## hoshin1600

GPaul said:


> If we are not allowed to judge this guy by the traditional standards of Aikido as put forth by the founder of Aikido, the corollary holds. That is, he cannot make a claim that he is practicing or teaching Aikido.


You can judge him any way you see fit, I am not saying you are not allowed to. But since Lenny has purposely and vocally stated that what he is doing is different than traditional Aikido then I feel, to be fair we need to look at his techniques in that light. Do they work and match the intent for which he is trying to achieve. I think they do. Now if that intent is not in accordance with O'Sensei and you feel he shouldn't use the Aikido label then that is a different discussion in my mind.  There has been a thread similar to that about the term aikijiutsu.

Edit: I still don't like the guy.


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## hoshin1600

drop bear said:


> Sounds like BJJ not aikido.
> 
> Does the guy in the vid do anything reall different to any other Aikido guy? Doesnt look different to me.


Yeah he kinda does. But it's a little like a Rickson Gracie school vs 10th planet. Kinda the same, kinda different and people on the outside wouldn't know the difference.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Sounds like BJJ not aikido.
> 
> Does the guy in the vid do anything reall different to any other Aikido guy? Doesnt look different to me.


The “impact” to the uke is different. Less flow on some of the techniques - less of what you’ve heard me refer to as “pure aiki”. Still the same techniques and the same physical principles (including the physical “aiki”).


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## Gerry Seymour

hoshin1600 said:


> You can judge him any way you see fit, I am not saying you are not allowed to. But since Lenny has purposely and vocally stated that what he is doing is different than traditional Aikido then I feel, to be fair we need to look at his techniques in that light. Do they work and match the intent for which he is trying to achieve. I think they do. Now if that intent is not in accordance with O'Sensei and you feel he shouldn't use the Aikido label then that is a different discussion in my mind.  There has been a thread similar to that about the term aikijiutsu.
> 
> Edit: I still don't like the guy.


Pretty good comparison. There would be one difference, in that “Aikido” is both the art Ueshiba created and the category of arts, as designated by the Dai Nippon Butokku-kai. So, in this case, it’s a correct name, even if it’s a different art (which I don’t see it as).


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## Encho

I actually like Lenny's approach, looks a lot better than most Aikido schools I have visited as far as actual practical application. 
It may not have an Aiki approach but some people are not looking for that and just want something practical.
Lenny seems like a guy who loves Aikido and wants to showcase that Aikido as a practical martial art instead of the preconception that a lot have as being unrealistic.

I think a lot of people tend to view Aikido based on Ueshiba's teachings later in life in a romantic idealism that may not be translated accurately kinda of like that weird uncle who eats brownies and talks about how we are all are one translated by your aunt to your mom then to you.


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## Martial D

Maybe I'm a little biased here, but show me a video where the aikido guy is defending successfully against REALISTIC attacks, then we can have a serious discussion. Nobody will ever attack you like this guy (and every other guy in every aikido demonstration video ever) attacks.

Nothing against aikido one way or the other, but you can make literally anything look good if a guy just throws themselves at you like that.


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## drop bear

Martial D said:


> Maybe I'm a little biased here, but show me a video where the aikido guy is defending successfully against REALISTIC attacks, then we can have a serious discussion. Nobody will ever attack you like this guy (and every other guy in every aikido demonstration video ever) attacks.
> 
> Nothing against aikido one way or the other, but you can make literally anything look good if a guy just throws themselves at you like that.



There are Aikido comps where you will see it.


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## Martial D

drop bear said:


> There are Aikido comps where you will see it.



Where? I've looked, and looked, and looked.

It's all either the one guy throwing themselves at the other guy, or if actual competition its two guys tugging on each others gi sleeves.

Wheres the defense in application against actual attacks? I really do want to see that, but I haven't been able to find it. I'm sure you have several such clips queued up, do share.


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## Encho

Martial D said:


> Maybe I'm a little biased here, but show me a video where the aikido guy is defending successfully against REALISTIC attacks, then we can have a serious discussion. Nobody will ever attack you like this guy (and every other guy in every aikido demonstration video ever) attacks.
> 
> Nothing against aikido one way or the other, but you can make literally anything look good if a guy just throws themselves at you like that.


Hi Martial D,
You most likely won't see it as everything is a demo even what Lenny does. In my opinion Lenny looks like a guy who could most likely defend himself with his Aikido.


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## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> Where? I've looked, and looked, and looked.
> 
> It's all either the one guy throwing themselves at the other guy, or if actual competition its two guys tugging on each others gi sleeves.
> 
> Wheres the defense in application against actual attacks? I really do want to see that, but I haven't been able to find it. I'm sure you have several such clips queued up, do share.


In competition, it often looks more like Judo (because the other guy is countering everything, like Judo). On defensive application, if trained well, it looks like a bit of both, sometimes messier, and sometimes more violent.


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## GPaul

hoshin1600 said:


> Yeah he kinda does. But it's a little like a Rickson Gracie school vs 10th planet. Kinda the same, kinda different and people on the outside wouldn't know the difference.




And if you watch his ikkyo, uke is able to simply step back and walk out. I've seen it done many times because people don't understand the principle. What he does can work on the street, only if the attacker is unskilled and over extended.


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## GPaul

drop bear said:


> There are Aikido comps where you will see it.


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## GPaul

Encho said:


> Hi Martial D,
> You most likely won't see it as everything is a demo even what Lenny does. In my opinion Lenny looks like a guy who could most likely defend himself with his Aikido.



Here is a video to fit your question.


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## GPaul

Martial D said:


> Maybe I'm a little biased here, but show me a video where the aikido guy is defending successfully against REALISTIC attacks, then we can have a serious discussion. Nobody will ever attack you like this guy (and every other guy in every aikido demonstration video ever) attacks.
> 
> Nothing against aikido one way or the other, but you can make literally anything look good if a guy just throws themselves at you like that.



Hmm, I tried adding a video for you but it ended up placed elsewhere for reasons unknown.


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## Tony Dismukes

GPaul said:


>


Staged.


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## Encho

GPaul said:


> Here is a video to fit your question.


Hi GPaul I actually did not ask a question but made a statement, the video looks great for a training or demo and don't doubt the guy is skilled but it is what it is a demo. 
I suppose the question is why do aikidoka need to prove it works to validate the art for themselves? If a person is practicing the art and enjoys it for what it is then that really is all there is to it.  Lenny seems like a no b.s. kinda of guy and passionate about his aikido so it's not everyone cup of tea especially if you are more inclined to a more pacifist direction.


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## Martial D

GPaul said:


> Here is a video to fit your question.



Well, the throw off the collar grab is good, I could see that being useful, as it's a situation that sometimes happens.

I'll just leave it at that I suppose.


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## drop bear

Martial D said:


> Where? I've looked, and looked, and looked.
> 
> It's all either the one guy throwing themselves at the other guy, or if actual competition its two guys tugging on each others gi sleeves.
> 
> Wheres the defense in application against actual attacks? I really do want to see that, but I haven't been able to find it. I'm sure you have several such clips queued up, do share.



Hey look I am the first person to rag on Aikido when it is warranted. Which is pretty much always. But they are chunking guys on their butts who dont want to get chunked. And that is working.


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## drop bear

Encho said:


> Hi GPaul I actually did not ask a question but made a statement, the video looks great for a training or demo and don't doubt the guy is skilled but it is what it is a demo.
> I suppose the question is why do aikidoka need to prove it works to validate the art for themselves? If a person is practicing the art and enjoys it for what it is then that really is all there is to it.  Lenny seems like a no b.s. kinda of guy and passionate about his aikido so it's not everyone cup of tea especially if you are more inclined to a more pacifist direction.



It would be nice if your martial arts worked. I dont think being an effective martial artist stops you being a pacifist. In fact it probably helps. I mean there are plent of effective martial artists who can not hurt people.

Dude is getting handled and not crippled.


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## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> Staged.



And paid for I think.

That was rick roufus doing a promotional.


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## Encho

drop bear said:


> It would be nice if your martial arts worked. I don*'*t think being an effective martial artist stops you *from *being a pacifist. In fact it probably helps. I mean there are plent*y* of effective martial artists who can not hurt people.
> 
> Dude is getting handled and not crippled.


Hi *D*rop *B*ear,
Here is my original quote
* "Lenny seems like a no b.s. kinda of guy and passionate about his aikido so it's not everyone cup of tea especially if you are more inclined to a more pacifist direction*."
My post was in references to Lenny and his method of practice in his Aikido vs the more pacifistic idealism that the founder of Aikido is often quoted and interpreted as love and unity and not an emphasis on violent conflict that Lenny stresses as real world application.


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## Martial D

drop bear said:


> Hey look I am the first person to rag on Aikido when it is warranted. Which is pretty much always. But they are chunking guys on their butts who dont want to get chunked. And that is working.


This is..surprising. I did suspect there might be something hiding under all the theatrics, but this is the first real evidence I've seen of it. 

Thanks.


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## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> This is..surprising. I did suspect there might be something hiding under all the theatrics, but this is the first real evidence I've seen of it.
> 
> Thanks.


Tomiki folks appear to have more in-close control than I see in some of the other branches of Ueshiba's art.


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## GPaul

Exactly. And having stepped outside


Tony Dismukes said:


> Staged.



I thought so the first time I viewed it. This is from a roughly 50 minute video on National Geographic in which the MMA master/champion, shown at the beginning, later visits the dojo of the fellow attacked in the video. It's interesting as he attempts the skills of the sensei in the video. He is, btw, the son of the late Gozo Shioda, a student of O'Sensei and who many consider taught a harder style of Aikido.

Lenny Sly has a video showing his response to a similar attack but no kick. I wonder if he would have been blindsided by the karate kick. Keep in mind, too. All of his videos, every one, are by definition staged for the purpose of teaching.


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## GPaul

gpseymour said:


> Tomiki folks appear to have more in-close control than I see in some of the other branches of Ueshiba's art.





gpseymour said:


> Pretty good comparison. There would be one difference, in that “Aikido” is both the art Ueshiba created and the category of arts, as designated by the Dai Nippon Butokku-kai. So, in this case, it’s a correct name, even if it’s a different art (which I don’t see it as).



That's the inflection point. In Ueshiba Aikido, technique evolves from moving in response to an attack. Not from when I am attacked in a certain way, I will respond with a particular technique. This is why O'Sensei is quoted saying there are infinite Aikido techniques.


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## Gerry Seymour

GPaul said:


> That's the inflection point. In Ueshiba Aikido, technique evolves from moving in response to an attack. Not from when I am attacked in a certain way, I will respond with a particular technique. This is why O'Sensei is quoted saying there are infinite Aikido techniques.


I think that's the endpoint of most (all?) arts. That's when we transcend the "techniques and applications" approach, and start playing in what I call "the grey spaces between techniques". I think there's an earlier emphasis on this in Ueshiba's Aikido than in most arts, from my observations.


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## Tony Dismukes

GPaul said:


> I thought so the first time I viewed it. This is from a roughly 50 minute video on National Geographic in which the MMA master/champion, shown at the beginning, later visits the dojo of the fellow attacked in the video. It's interesting as he attempts the skills of the sensei in the video. He is, btw, the son of the late Gozo Shioda, a student of O'Sensei and who many consider taught a harder style of Aikido.
> 
> Lenny Sly has a video showing his response to a similar attack but no kick. I wonder if he would have been blindsided by the karate kick. Keep in mind, too. All of his videos, every one, are by definition staged for the purpose of teaching.


I have no objection to presenting a choreographed demo for purposes of exhibition or teaching. I have a problem with presenting such a demo and claiming it is a non-staged real fight. The clip shown was most definitely a staged demo and it was dishonest for the show to claim otherwise.


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## GPaul

GPaul said:


> Exactly. And having stepped outside
> 
> 
> I thought so the first time I viewed it. This is from a roughly 50 minute video on National Geographic in which the MMA master/champion, shown at the beginning, later visits the dojo of the fellow attacked in the video. It's interesting as he attempts the skills of the sensei in the video. He is, btw, the son of the late Gozo Shioda, a student of O'Sensei and who many consider taught a harder style of Aikido.
> 
> Lenny Sly has a video showing his response to a similar attack but no kick. I wonder if he would have been blindsided by the karate kick. Keep in mind, too. All of his videos, every one, are by definition staged for the purpose of teaching.



IMO, the key take away is the attackers agreed the problems both had was the defender simply moved off the line of the attack. This is the key feature of Aikido as the founder had refined it before his death.


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## Tony Dismukes

GPaul said:


> IMO, the key take away is the attackers agreed the problems both had was the defender simply moved off the line of the attack. This is the key feature of Aikido as the founder had refined it before his death.


Moving off of the line of the attack is an important feature of *lots* of martial arts, including boxing, MMA, Capoeira, and many, many more. If someone claims to be a MMA champion and to not know how to deal with an opponent moving off the line of attack, then they are lying about at least one of those claims.


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## GPaul

Tony Dismukes said:


> Moving off of the line of the attack is an important feature of *lots* of martial arts, including boxing, MMA, Capoeira, and many, many more. If someone claims to be a MMA champion and to not know how to deal with an opponent moving off the line of attack, then they are lying about at least one of those claims.



And these two attackers, with years of experience between them, said pretty much the same thing, Shiota pretty much disappeared when they attacked him. This seems much more than simply moving off line. I apologize for expressing this as typical off line movement.


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## Martial D

GPaul said:


> And these two attackers, with years of experience between them, said pretty much the same thing, Shiota pretty much disappeared when they attacked him. This seems much more than simply moving off line. I apologize for expressing this as typical off line movement.



The thing is using a staged example to support non staged application falls pretty flat. I do realize if you train aikido or akijujutsu in an alive combative fashion it can be a boon, but it seems like the overwhelming majority do not. I feel this is why(as with Wing Chun) aikido is not taken as seriously as it could be.


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## Gerry Seymour

GPaul said:


> And these two attackers, with years of experience between them, said pretty much the same thing, Shiota pretty much disappeared when they attacked him. This seems much more than simply moving off line. I apologize for expressing this as typical off line movement.


I do think the way some Aikidoka move off-line is different. And sometimes it just feels surprising, because they don't seem to be getting out of the way, then they do. I had a training partner who I would use to demonstrate using a soft push block with a small evasion, because he has strong, fast straight punches (rank in Shotokan, as well). He would always complain afterward that he was afraid he would hit me, and then it just didn't happen. The point of doing it that way is to keep them committed to the attack that seems to be working, until we can access the technique/principle we want to use.

_NOTE: I expect you know this - just expanding on your earlier comment._


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## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> The thing is using a staged example to support non staged application falls pretty flat. I do realize if you train aikido or akijujutsu in an alive combative fashion it can be a boon, but it seems like the overwhelming majority do not. I feel this is why(as with Wing Chun) aikido is not taken as seriously as it could be.


It's a particular challenge for Aikido (actually, for aiki arts), IMO, because if I know you're trying to do Aikido, I can take away many of the opportunities for "aiki" responses, leaving few of those opportunities and more opportunities for striking and Judo-style principles. So, if we want to practice aiki, we have to have a more cooperative situation more often, so I give you input (feed the right attacks) that make those techniques available. I think some branches of Aikido have taken too much focus on that pure aiki for a stand-alone art. It works well if you already have a functional base, but it doesn't allow students to form a functional base as cleanly as other arts do.


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## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> It's a particular challenge for Aikido (actually, for aiki arts), IMO, because if I know you're trying to do Aikido, I can take away many of the opportunities for "aiki" responses, leaving few of those opportunities and more opportunities for striking and Judo-style principles. So, if we want to practice aiki, we have to have a more cooperative situation more often, so I give you input (feed the right attacks) that make those techniques available. I think some branches of Aikido have taken too much focus on that pure aiki for a stand-alone art. It works well if you already have a functional base, but it doesn't allow students to form a functional base as cleanly as other arts do.



Well, as a guy that has worked WC into my functional repertoire, I understand that being a 'purist' isn't always the strongest option.

It seems that as a supliment to an existing repertoire it could and should have it's uses, mainly opertunities for small joint manipulation and getting off line in a way that's unexpected. I can't say for sure though as I've never trained a day of any 'aki' style.


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## Encho

GPaul said:


> IMO, the key take away is the attackers agreed the problems both had was the defender simply moved off the line of the attack. This is the key feature of Aikido as the founder had refined it before his death.


That is interesting as moving off the line of attack isn't a feature in daito ryu.


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## Gerry Seymour

Encho said:


> That is interesting as moving off the line of attack isn't a feature in daito ryu.


This is a point I've been meaning to ask about. Let me start with this: How much does Daito-ryu enter, versus exiting, in response to an attack?


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## Encho

gpseymour said:


> This is a point I've been meaning to ask about. Let me start with this: How much does Daito-ryu enter, versus exiting, in response to an attack?


I am not sure what you mean by exiting,
Entering is definitely there on a straight line, with the idea to beat the attacker to the punch sort of speak, at least on kihon level 
I don't want to say that all daito ryu technique are done on a straight line and my opinion that daito ryu teaches different ways of exposure of aiki.


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## Tony Dismukes

GPaul said:


> And these two attackers, with years of experience between them, said pretty much the same thing



I see two possibilities here.

a) The two were instructed to act as compliant ukes for a demonstration and describe the demonstrated techniques. Then editing and narration were used by the producers of the video to present the misleading impression that this was an actual sparring match.
b) The two were complicit in pretending a compliant demo was a sparring match.

Let's break down what is shown ...

1) The "karateka" grabs Shioda by the lapels like an untrained bully, does nothing else, and waits around for the aikidoka to perform a technique.

2) The "professional MMA fighter" throws a few tentative punches from out of range then, without any sort of setup to create a good opening, launches an out-to-in crescent kick. (Which is almost never used in MMA, for good reason.) When his target ducks out of the way, he allows the kick to turn him away from his target and makes no effort to recover his position. Then when Shioda pulls him down he makes no effort to defend himself on the ground and allows himself to be pinned in a position that any competent grappler could counter.

3) The two make no effort to work together intelligently. Instead they take turns throwing slow, sloppy punches without any set up and then leaving their arms extended at the end of the punch so the aikidoka can grab their wrists and apply a lock.

That's not a real fight. It's not a real sparring session. It's a compliant demo designed to make the demonstrator look good.



GPaul said:


> Shiota pretty much disappeared when they attacked him. This seems much more than simply moving off line.



Nothing in his evasive movement was particularly out of the ordinary.



gpseymour said:


> I do think the way some Aikidoka move off-line is different. And sometimes it just feels surprising, because they don't seem to be getting out of the way, then they do.



Good boxers will do this. Good capoeristas too. I was taught to do the same in Bujinkan Taijutsu, but since that is normally practiced with compliant partners I don't think practitioners are typically as skilled at pulling it off in a live situation.


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## Gerry Seymour

Encho said:


> I am not sure what you mean by exiting,
> Entering is definitely there on a straight line, with the idea to beat the attacker to the punch sort of speak, at least on kihon level
> I don't want to say that all daito ryu technique are done on a straight line and my opinion that daito ryu teaches different ways of exposure of aiki.


I've been curious about this, because NGA's entry tends to be a more direct line than Ueshiba's Aikido, on average. We move off-line in some cases, but often move specifically to intersect, to the point that some of us teach making contact at the hip or shoulder to break structure.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> Good boxers will do this. Good capoeristas too. I was taught to do the same in Bujinkan Taijutsu, but since that is normally practiced with compliant partners I don't think practitioners are typically as skilled at pulling it off in a live situation.


Agreed. I've frequently seen movement like that I described when I'm demonstrating the soft push block and evasion, from boxers and MMA fighters. I seem to recall seeing similar from Muay Thai fighters, and certainly have seen it in kickboxing and similar sports. The movement that seems more common in Aikido (but certainly not unique, IMO) is the way they enter off-line (which I don't tend to do as much, at least not that way). I'm not sure how to describe what seems different about it, but I have seen some of the more slippery boxers do similar things, so it does happen outside Aikido.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> It's a particular challenge for Aikido (actually, for aiki arts), IMO, because if I know you're trying to do Aikido, I can take away many of the opportunities for "aiki" responses, leaving few of those opportunities and more opportunities for striking and Judo-style principles. So, if we want to practice aiki, we have to have a more cooperative situation more often, so I give you input (feed the right attacks) that make those techniques available. I think some branches of Aikido have taken too much focus on that pure aiki for a stand-alone art. It works well if you already have a functional base, but it doesn't allow students to form a functional base as cleanly as other arts do.



Like learning knife defence without ever learning how to handle a knife.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Like learning knife defence without ever learning how to handle a knife.


No, not in any way I can figure.


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## Chris Li

GPaul said:


> O'Sensei called his Aikido The Art of Peace. He taught that Aikido is meant to neutralize an attacker and not harm him or her; at least cause as little harm as possible. Further, O'Sensei taught us to always practice with a smile on our face. Is his practice intended to harm the attacker or neutralize the attacker? It's easier to hurt an attacker than to neutralize while not causing harm. Does he smile during practice?



Well...he didn't, really, "The Art of Peace" is a rather liberal interpretation of the word "Aikido" that was made by John Stevens and misrepresented as a translation of the word. 

Neutralizing without harm to the attacker come from Sokaku Takeda and Daito-ryu, it wasn't originated by Morihei Ueshiba. I don't know about not smiling being a deal breaker, but many of his direct students recounted how hard it was to face the ferocious intensity of Morihei Ueshiba's countenance - and he certainly wasn't smiling all that time.

Best,

Chris


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## Kung Fu Wang

Chris Li said:


> "The Art of Peace"


This remind me the following:

- Help someone to go to heaven.
- Help someone to end his misery life.
- I only train for self-defense. I don't train to fight.
- ...

There is no peace in fighting. To make your opponent's head to meet the ground is not much civilized than to let his face to meet your fist.


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## Ryback

Well the thread is a bit old by now but I joined the forum very recently and I have a lot of catching up to do... 
Lenny is a student of Haruo Matsuoka Sensei and Larry Reynosa Sensei, both of whom were direct students of Steven Seagal Sensei. Contrary to what some of his students claim in order to advertise themselves as something different, Seagal never said that he has his own style, his Tenshin dojo and the ones affiliated with it are Aikikai dojos. He has his trademark approach and "style" but this doesn't constitute a different kind of ryu... 
Lenny is always talking (usually shouting and cursing) about how his Aikido is "Tenshin Aikido" which is different, faster, better, more practical in a fighting situation kind of Aikido but the truth is that this is just a publicity trick, one that has worked well in his favor too... 
Whether he likes it or not Tenshin dojo is a traditional Aikido Dojo so there is no difference between his days in traditional Aikido and his so called Tenshin training. 
The only difference is that Seagal's approach is indeed more focused on the practical application but he is not the only teacher doing that nor is Lenny the only person on the planet or in Aikido that knows how to use it effectively in a fight. 
He is sometimes right about common mistakes done in Aikido schools that diminish the effectiveness of the art but his way is not the only correct one, nor is he the only one approaching Aikido in such a manner. 
Sometimes he is claiming that a specific technique is unique only in the "Tenshin style" or that no one does hand deflections the way he does, which is utterly wrong, after all he is not familiar with every Aikido Dojo in the world is he?
Many times he has tried to demonstrate the wrong way that doesn't work as opposed to his own that works... Sometimes he is right, but most times he is watering down the one that is supposed not to be effective, he is showing it making deliberate mistakes in order to prove it wrong and then goes on to demonstrate his own approach. 
His Aikido is far from being unique, his whole movement his te sabaki, ashi sabaki, the use of kiri age,suri age and Uke nagaeshi deflections are all Seagal Sensei movements passed on to him by Matsuoka Sensei and Reynosa Sensei. His whole style is obviously Seagal based BUT he lacks Seagal's flow, he is using too much force and he is stiff during his randori probably because he is inflated like a body builder and it's too hard for him to move in a relaxed flowing way... 
Now, with that being said, I generally like him, believe it or not, he is fun to watch and I respect him as much as I respect any Aikido person...


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## now disabled

Ryback said:


> Well the thread is a bit old by now but I joined the forum very recently and I have a lot of catching up to do...
> Lenny is a student of Haruo Matsuoka Sensei and Larry Reynosa Sensei, both of whom were direct students of Steven Seagal Sensei. Contrary to what some of his students claim in order to advertise themselves as something different, Seagal never said that he has his own style, his Tenshin dojo and the ones affiliated with it are Aikikai dojos. He has his trademark approach and "style" but this doesn't constitute a different kind of ryu...
> Lenny is always talking (usually shouting and cursing) about how his Aikido is "Tenshin Aikido" which is different, faster, better, more practical in a fighting situation kind of Aikido but the truth is that this is just a publicity trick, one that has worked well in his favor too...
> Whether he likes it or not Tenshin dojo is a traditional Aikido Dojo so there is no difference between his days in traditional Aikido and his so called Tenshin training.
> The only difference is that Seagal's approach is indeed more focused on the practical application but he is not the only teacher doing that nor is Lenny the only person on the planet or in Aikido that knows how to use it effectively in a fight.
> He is sometimes right about common mistakes done in Aikido schools that diminish the effectiveness of the art but his way is not the only correct one, nor is he the only one approaching Aikido in such a manner.
> Sometimes he is claiming that a specific technique is unique only in the "Tenshin style" or that no one does hand deflections the way he does, which is utterly wrong, after all he is not familiar with every Aikido Dojo in the world is he?
> Many times he has tried to demonstrate the wrong way that doesn't work as opposed to his own that works... Sometimes he is right, but most times he is watering down the one that is supposed not to be effective, he is showing it making deliberate mistakes in order to prove it wrong and then goes on to demonstrate his own approach.
> His Aikido is far from being unique, his whole movement his te sabaki, ashi sabaki, the use of kiri age,suri age and Uke nagaeshi deflections are all Seagal Sensei movements passed on to him by Matsuoka Sensei and Reynosa Sensei. His whole style is obviously Seagal based BUT he lacks Seagal's flow, he is using too much force and he is stiff during his randori probably because he is inflated like a body builder and it's too hard for him to move in a relaxed flowing way...
> Now, with that being said, I generally like him, believe it or not, he is fun to watch and I respect him as much as I respect any Aikido person...




He is good to watch and I do enjoy his vids lol but like you I do have issues with how he always says how it doesn't work then goes into how it does and honestly all he his doing is actually applying the technique properly (ok he may add a few extras lol).

He doesn't have the flow that is for sure but I think that more to do with his in your face style and attitude and yes he is a big dude lol. 

I actually do get a chuckle at how he does say it don't work and all that is not right with Aikido yet he still wears the Hakama etc.

There is no doubt he can apply his techs that is for sure. I think his style is more into his marketing strategy than anything.

If imo you want to see a shihan flow then look at Tissier shihan as he does flow and if you ever get the chance to attend a seminar he will even say that some of the techs he learned way back he can no longer do them that way ie the big circles as he is to old etc then he will go on to show how he can still do them and flow but it a slightly different way


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## hoshin1600

I prefer to watch Lenny with the sound off.  the sound of fingernails running over a chalk board is much more pleasant to me.
if the volume is audible i get distracted from the voice i hear saying  "just shut up!  just shut up and do the technique...Just shut up!"  then i realize its me yelling it.


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## O'Malley

gpseymour said:


> I've been curious about this, because NGA's entry tends to be a more direct line than Ueshiba's Aikido, on average. We move off-line in some cases, but often move specifically to intersect, to the point that some of us teach making contact at the hip or shoulder to break structure.



According to my teacher (who trained both Daito-ryu and Iwama Aikido), OSensei was obsessed with the concept of ai-uchi (where both opponents kill each other) and thus modified Daito-ryu techniques in order to put the aikidoka in a safer position (the ideal is "I can hit him but he cannot hit me", the second best is "I can't hit him but I'm safe and in an advantageous position"). This is reflected in our stance (sankaku = bladed, triangular stance VS the squarer shikaku stance from Daito-ryu) and in our weapon work. 

In fact, my teacher also practices iaï/battô-do and fights in Atarashii Naginata and he told us that ha felt that his aikido put him in safer positions and made him much less likely to get hit but that it sometimes made him miss his target by a small distance.


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## Gerry Seymour

O'Malley said:


> According to my teacher (who trained both Daito-ryu and Iwama Aikido), OSensei was obsessed with the concept of ai-uchi (where both opponents kill each other) and thus modified Daito-ryu techniques in order to put the aikidoka in a safer position (the ideal is "I can hit him but he cannot hit me", the second best is "I can't hit him but I'm safe and in an advantageous position"). This is reflected in our stance (sankaku = bladed, triangular stance VS the squarer shikaku stance from Daito-ryu) and in our weapon work.
> 
> In fact, my teacher also practices iaï/battô-do and fights in Atarashii Naginata and he told us that ha felt that his aikido put him in safer positions and made him much less likely to get hit but that it sometimes made him miss his target by a small distance.


That makes sense. I can see how that focus would produce a different approach - and commonly different positions - than a different branch from Daito-ryu. Thanks!


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## now disabled

O'Malley said:


> According to my teacher (who trained both Daito-ryu and Iwama Aikido), OSensei was obsessed with the concept of ai-uchi (where both opponents kill each other) and thus modified Daito-ryu techniques in order to put the aikidoka in a safer position (the ideal is "I can hit him but he cannot hit me", the second best is "I can't hit him but I'm safe and in an advantageous position"). This is reflected in our stance (sankaku = bladed, triangular stance VS the squarer shikaku stance from Daito-ryu) and in our weapon work.
> 
> In fact, my teacher also practices iaï/battô-do and fights in Atarashii Naginata and he told us that ha felt that his aikido put him in safer positions and made him much less likely to get hit but that it sometimes made him miss his target by a small distance.




The stance I agree with as it puts different pressure on the pelvic area thus making movement "easier" and the weight distribution is slightly different 

Using the Bokken and the Jo does help a great deal not only with hand movement (many of the throws the hand /arm movement resembles how you would cut with the sword ) but most def with your foot movement ashi sabaki. As folks will know the first to bokken Kumitachi are almost identical to those of Kishima Shinto Ryu 

I do find it surprising that he said (maybe I got this wrong) that it sometimes made him miss by a small distance, That actually really interests me as I would have thought that it would have had the opposite effect. 

very interesting and a good post


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## Finlay

Just because you swear alot doesnt make you style more legit.

I know awesome fighters and doormen who are still polite

Take away that and what have you got, just a slightly harder style of aikido.


There is another video where they attack other styles of aikido and call them weak in the application of ikkyo.

Trouble is, they way they present 'how most schools do it' i have never seen. Seems largely a straw man argument


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## Finlay

My mistake... it was sankyo


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