# Folding utility knife (boxcutter)



## arnisandyz (Dec 22, 2003)

Has anybody played with this yet?  Being a new homeowner, I use my utility knife regularly for things around the house.  A utility knife can do some things better than a regular knife can like cutting weather stripping, trimming paper, fine cutting, etc.  Cool part is that you can always have a razor sharp blade (it is a razor after all) - if it gets dull, flip it around or put a new blade in.  I think its only like $25.

andy


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## arnisandyz (Dec 22, 2003)

they call it a "superknife"


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 22, 2003)

It's a handy little tool.  The pocket clip could be a little more substantial and the handle is a little too smooth for its size, but it's a nice little item.

There are other knives in this category, too.  Meyerco makes one that is essentially a razor blade holder fitted into the handle that their "Speedster" knife uses, and the whole thing is spring-assisted.  

Stanley, makers of standard tools you can find in any hardware store, also makes two different Sport Utility Knives that are retractable razor-blade utility knives on one end with one-hand-opening folding knife blades on the other end.  The knives are of relatively cheap steel and the housings are very large, making the overall tool very chunky, but if you carry it in a toolbelt this is not an issue and it's handy to have both types of knives in one unit.


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## arnisandyz (Dec 22, 2003)

That Myerco knife looks good and its the same price (maybe less) than the superknife!


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## 7starmantis (Dec 23, 2003)

OK, I have to ask....

The attackers durin the 9/11 attacks were brandishing "boxcutters" I would imagine similar to the ones mentioned above. How much damage could you inflict with one of those before someone takes you down. Its not like you could even really hit any main arteries or anything with the small blade. What would make a whole plane full of people sit in thier seats and not try to take them down if all they had were those knives? 
I know the one plane did "revolt" but I just dont see anyone doing any amount of damage to me with one of those before I've broken a knee or two, am I being optomistic? I don't think so.

Your thoughts?

7sm


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *OK, I have to ask....
> 
> The attackers durin the 9/11 attacks were brandishing "boxcutters" I would imagine similar to the ones mentioned above. How much damage could you inflict with one of those before someone takes you down. Its not like you could even really hit any main arteries or anything with the small blade. What would make a whole plane full of people sit in thier seats and not try to take them down if all they had were those knives?
> ...



I wish we could train for five minutes. Just a simple little aluminum trainer and you from a seated position getting up and into the isle way. You might be able to get a kick off, and this would be nice. Yet, if you are in the back, The Bad guy
 could just reach out and cut the throat of the old lady sitting next to the isle. Before you get there. Then tel everyone that you were teh cause, because you stood up. I would then procede as needed. How many of those people would you like to see die? Fear is of what might have happened to them is what kept them in their seats. Combined with teh staff telling them to co-operate as was theri training. Previous to this all hostage taking on airplanes was for political statments, not using them as guided missiles. After, you get to me, we could see where you were cut after the exchange. And yes, I might have more training in the knife, yet you have more training in martial arts then the average passenger.

No disrespect to you or those on the plane.
:asian:


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## Cruentus (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *OK, I have to ask....
> 
> The attackers durin the 9/11 attacks were brandishing "boxcutters" I would imagine similar to the ones mentioned above. How much damage could you inflict with one of those before someone takes you down. Its not like you could even really hit any main arteries or anything with the small blade. What would make a whole plane full of people sit in thier seats and not try to take them down if all they had were those knives?
> ...



With all do respect, a semi-trained knife player would kill you with one of those without a whole lot of problems.

The tool is razor sharp, and can severe most major arteries, despite what you might think. You don't need a large blade to do this. Your inside arms, neck, and inside leg arteries could all cut to pieces with ease.

Not to mention, all the preliminary cuts, and what those would do to you. 

Imagine this for a moment: 

a wildly slashing attacker with a box cutter... you close the gap like the good martial artists you are, and your right followed by your left moves in for the trap, as you move to deliver a powerful blow with your foot to his knee, hoping to be able to follow up with a successful disarm and barrage of strikes to the head. As you trap, your right hand becomes warm and mushy and wet for some reason. Your left hand stings like you've never felt before, as you expected to catch his wrist with your left, yet you can't even close your hand at all. Your kick thumps against something, but your focus was thrown completely off, as you glance at your arms to see blood pumping with every throb of your fast beating heart out of an artery from a gash in the inside of your left elbow; the other gash along your left forearm looks like a piece of rare beef hanging off bone. Your right palm is only cut prematurely on the palm, but that seems to sting now more then the left. But you've already stumbled with your footwork unconsciously, so you have to readjust to try to grab or punch him with your only working limb...your right hand. However, during the milisecond it takes for you to process this, you can almost hear the Pop of your right eye, as now you can no longer see out of it. You make a last ditch effort to flail a strike with your right hand as your head flinches back, and as your scream is immediately muffled by a girgling sound. Your out of breath, but when you try to inhale, all you can breath in is warm liquid. You think your on the ground by the back of your head hitting a surface of somekind, but all you can see is blackness, as you no longer know which way is up, with your last memory being your right hand measures the size of the gash in your throat, and the question of "what just happend in the last 3 seconds?" burning in your mind.

I wouldn't underestimate the power of even a small blade if I were you. You can be overtaken by a blade wielding attacker in a matter of seconds. If you make one mistake in gaining control of him you will be cut, repeatidly. He can afford to make a lot of mistakes, however, including being hit many times by your strikes, before it becomes a danger to him.

Just something to think about. I wouldn't underestimate the damage a little knife can do...

PAUL


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## Cruentus (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *I wish we could train for five minutes. Just a simple little aluminum trainer and you from a seated position getting up and into the isle way. You might be able to get a kick off, and this would be nice. Yet, if you are in the back, The Bad guy
> could just reach out and cut the throat of the old lady sitting next to the isle. Before you get there. Then tel everyone that you were teh cause, because you stood up. I would then procede as needed. How many of those people would you like to see die? Fear is of what might have happened to them is what kept them in their seats. Combined with teh staff telling them to co-operate as was theri training. Previous to this all hostage taking on airplanes was for political statments, not using them as guided missiles. After, you get to me, we could see where you were cut after the exchange. And yes, I might have more training in the knife, yet you have more training in martial arts then the average passenger.
> 
> ...



These are good points as well. How many women and children could one see die from getting up and trying to fight them off? I would fight...but I would want to know the motives of the hijackers first, so I wouldn't cause people to die when we could all land somewhere safely. This of course depends on the situation. Yet,  I am sure for a good part of the trip, they figured that they were taking a trip to Afganastan rather then being used as missles. 

Regardless, I would have to be convinced that we were going to die anyways before I tried something. I don't mind dieing from defending myself, but I have a problem with getting others killed if it can be prevented.

PAUL


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## arnisador (Dec 23, 2003)

They can nickel-and-dime you to death with one of those. (Of course, the bigger issue on 9/11 was that people ahd learned it was best to let hijackers do their thing if one wanted to live--people were right not to fight, from that point of view, even if they thought they could win.) Remember, some of the flight attendants _were_ found dead from knife wounds.


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## arnisador (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *Has anybody played with this yet? *



Do you have a website for it?


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## 7starmantis (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *With all do respect, a semi-trained knife player would kill you with one of those without a whole lot of problems.
> 
> The tool is razor sharp, and can severe most major arteries, despite what you might think. You don't need a large blade to do this. Your inside arms, neck, and inside leg arteries could all cut to pieces with ease.
> ...



With all do respect, I think you are over compensating a knife. I train almost daily against knifes, and I can tell you your story is a little off. Just because someone is weilding a kinfe doesn't make them super human in strength and speed as your story depicted. I'm not trying to underestimate a small knife, but as a paramedic, I can tell you from experience that a small knife like that can do bad damage, but not by mistake. A widly slashing attacker is not going to do much with that small of a blade against a trained MAist. 
I think the major advantage would be the threat of violence to some one else, but as we now know, sitting still in that situation kills more. 

My point is that even if you cut me three times with it in the process, I still would have shattered a knee and crushed a windpipe. I just dont see it being a weapon of choice.

7sm


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 23, 2003)

7SM,

If the bad guys from 9/11 went and got some trainng on how to fly a plane and not land it. What makes you think that they did not get some basic knife training. Enough not to over swing, or to over expose their knife wielding arm?

Just  a question, to better understand your point. 

Yes, I agree if the person gives you the standard attack that every first learns to defend against, which is the single committed attack with just the arm. Yes if the attacker makes the classic mistakes of giving away their weapon then it could be easy for anyone with some training to stop it. How many of the passengers were trained? The average person freezes at the sign of violence. As a paramedic, I am sure you are used to most of the forms of shock.

Sorry, not trying  to pick on you or anyone here. Just asking.


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## triwahine (Dec 23, 2003)

I never realized the damage a knife could inflict until I went to a seminar and got a better understanding.  My eyes were opened.  If one is trained in using a knife, he/she knows the strikes and major points of attack.  An untrained person may only understand that strength is needed to cause a good cut.  One major thing I got from it all was "you are going to get cut if you confront someone else with a knife".  Small knife, big knife; it really doesn't matter.  The extent of damage might vary, but medical help will be needed.  Just make sure to take care of yourself after having gone up against a knife.  Know first aide and know wher the hospital is.  Just because you may have "ruined" the attacker, doesn't mean you're out of the woods yet.  Take care of yourself, injure the attacker, and get help.

B


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## lhommedieu (Dec 23, 2003)

Boxcutters, for their particular time and purpose on 9/11:

I don't know for sure but I'm guessing that they were used because they was easy to conceal (i.e., a boxcutter doesn't "print" like a knife.  They were probably disassembled prior to the flight, stored in carry-on luggage, and reassembled on board).  

Statements about the skill needed and tactics used, etc. are somewhat off the point:  the hijackers succeeded because they (1) knew how to terrorize the crew and passengers, and (2) America was used to political hijackers - no one ever thought that a pilot would deliberately fly a plane into a building.  With respect to #1, women were killed in front of the passengers, who were told that the next person up out of their seat would cause another death.  It's easy to say what we would have done if we were there; we weren't.

Boxcutters are:

1) Capaple of doing lethal damage even in untrained hands.
2) Difficult to take away

I think that the only reason they didn't succeed with the third plane (the one that crashed in Pennsylvania) is that some of the passengers knew by that time what was going on, and rushed the hijackers en masse.  That's a far cry from going one-on-one, but who the f##k cares?  God bless them.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## arnisandyz (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Do you have a website for it? *



Arnisador, look here http://www.superknife.com/ and http://www.1sks.com/store/meyerco-speed-assisted-razor-knife.html for the myerco.

Wow,  when I posted this I was wondering if anyone was going to bring up 9/11.  I was thinking  of getting the knife strickly from a utility point of view,  I can see myself using this knife for more chores around the house than any other, but there is some really good discussion going on here.

I don't think anybody thinks the knife makes anybody "invicible" or "superhuman".  I do think that people that train offensively with a knife understands the damage it can do and have a certain amount of respect.  I can tell you this,  I would never go empty hand against this "little 1" blade if it were in the hands of my teachers, my peers, my students, or pretty much anybody that  demonstrates some skill and intent.  It doesn't mean I don't have confidence in my empty hand skill, and I would go in if I had too, but I'm not so niave as to think I will block it and crush the guys throat with one of my many hundred "deadly techniques".  I'd probably be scared shitless, but hopefully that will help keep me alive long enough to do something.

As far as the attackers having training in knife combat.  I think I remember a report claiming to have found manuals on close quarter combat which included knife fighting. There were also more than 1 attacker.  While your doing your deadly moves on attacker #1 you also have to consider attacker #2, but the jump spin wheel kick should take care of him. jk.

some boxcutter handles are made of plastic, so it probably would not be difficult to conceal the blade somewhere and assemble it on the plane.


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## Cthulhu (Dec 23, 2003)

A blade like the one in the photo provided by arnisandyz whould be long enough to reach quite a few major arteries.  Those trained in a blade oriented system would know what those targets are, so I don't think I'll mention them.  Also, these blades are razor sharp and would require next to no strength to leave a deep cut.  

I don't think many people would be able to mentally cope with a blade they know to be razor sharp, or at least, their past experience with box cutter-type blades will lead them to believe the blade is razor sharp.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *Arnisador, look here http://www.superknife.com/ *



Thanks, I ordered one!


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 24, 2003)

I've attached a picture of the Myerco.

Any knife can be razor-sharp.  A real "knife fight" -- not a "knife duel," mind you -- happens so quickly that there really ought not be a lot of thinking on the part of the person on the receiving end, as generally you won't be waving your knife around attempting to use it as a deterrent.

As for range, the concept of the range of a given blade is very much overrated.  In sparring with my teacher Dave, who always uses a reverse grip, I tried any number of tactics to increase my reach over his -- forward grip, longer training knife, etc.  It didn't matter to him because he didn't much care what my relative reach was;  he simply avoided, intercepted, or otherwise neutralized my attacks while getting in to carve me up.

Any sharp edge can be an effective self-defense tool.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *7SM,
> 
> If the bad guys from 9/11 went and got some trainng on how to fly a plane and not land it. What makes you think that they did not get some basic knife training. Enough not to over swing, or to over expose their knife wielding arm?
> ...



No problem, I agree with you, it wouldn't be easy, adn like others have said, defending against a knife mean you gettingcut regardless. I do think the attackers had some training, and their knowledge of terrorising people is what they used, thats all good. Lets take the whole situation away from 9/11 and say its in a backalley, pretty well lit and some guy steps in between you and your girlfriend/wife and pulls a boxcutter. What then? as a MAist you would have to addres the situation. Thats what I'm trying to get at. The boxcutter, away from the situation they were used in 9/11 is not a weapon I would fear to the point of not protecting myself or someone else. Thats all I'm saying, regardless of the cuts I receive, I'm also trained to not expose vital areas for them to cut. I just think a boxcutter type weapon is not one that would stop a trained MAist if they were forced to defend against it.



> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *As far as the attackers having training in knife combat. I think I remember a report claiming to have found manuals on close quarter combat which included knife fighting. There were also more than 1 attacker. While your doing your deadly moves on attacker #1 you also have to consider attacker #2, but the jump spin wheel kick should take care of him. jk. *



I'm not trying to say I'm a dangerous killing machine, but you have a knife and your attacking me, I'm not going to worry about wether a throat stirke was a little too hard or not. Oh, and I would never in my life use a jump spin wheel kick on anything.   I train in only serious reality fighting techniques. In my system, we almost never kick above the groin, most we use crushing knee kciks. And I can tell you from training with my Sifu and sihings that it doesn't take more than a few seconds for someone with real training who is in a serious situation to take out an attacker with any type of weapon. The training these guys had was meager at best, I just with they had tried to highjack a plane full of trained MAist, that would have been a bad day for them. 

7sm


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## arnisandyz (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> I'm not trying to say I'm a dangerous killing machine, but you have a knife and your attacking me, I'm not going to worry about wether a throat stirke was a little too hard or not. Oh, and I would never in my life use a jump spin wheel kick on anything.
> 7sm [/B]



My post wasn't pointed directly at you, but to those people who think they have the answer to everything. I don't know you personally, but you are bringing up some good conversation.

I wasn't really refering to the amount of force used, but more the attitude that many have going in against person with a  knife. Sorry for the miscommunication again.

Although you have trained against a knife (I don't know the extent of your training so I 'll assume it is as realistic as saftey permits)  do you think you average blackbelt (trained MArtist) would react the same way as yourself?

I think if any "properly trained" MArtist came to a point to where they HAD to do somthing the size or type of weapon won't really matter.  For example...to use your street situation - a guy pulls a boxcutter on you and your wife and newborn baby - you can't run and leave your family behind - you see he only has a boxcutter so you stand and fight.  If he had a butcher knife would the situation be any different?  It might look more intimidating, but  i think you'll still defend your family if needed.


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## arnisandyz (Dec 24, 2003)

Mr Phil, Do you prefer the Meyerco or the Superknife and why? I'm having a  hard time deciding.  The superknife is also available in a rubberized grip, so its between that one and the myerco.  The assist opening would be nice, but not really necessary for my utility needs, especialy if it requires more matenience.

As a side note, how do you think LEO might react to someone carrying a folding "boxcutter" in post 9/11? I would guess before 9/11 they would see it as a tool stockboys might use, now I think they might see it as a 'terrorist" type weapon. 

Thanks

Andy


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## arnisador (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *As for range, the concept of the range of a given blade is very much overrated.  In sparring with my teacher Dave, who always uses a reverse grip, I tried any number of tactics to increase my reach over his -- forward grip, longer training knife, etc.  It didn't matter to him because he didn't much care what my relative reach was;  he simply avoided, intercepted, or otherwise neutralized my attacks while getting in to carve me up.*



There are at least two major strategies for knife-fighting--the defang the snake, long range, nickel-and-dime them to death approach, where reach matters and a reverse grip would not usually be favored, and the get-in-deep approach. The former looks to make small cuts on the hands and forearms (or any other target of opportunity), whereas the latter looks to get in and make seriously damaging strikes on the main body.

I think the length of the knife can matter at long range--if two people have equal armreaches, a two-inch difference in blade length can be put to advantage--but it's much less of an issue if one intends to go in deep.

It's also a matter of your model of knife fighting. Some people say even the smallest cut can end or at least determine the fight and so they play it like tag--almost like karate-style point-sparring--whereas others think that a person can take a number of little cuts and it may be a fair trade to take one on the forearm but give one to the liver. I know lots of people who spar for first blood only--no matter how minor the cut or its location--and again, a reach advantage (be it from the knife or just armlength) can surely help.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *My post wasn't pointed directly at you, but to those people who think they have the answer to everything. I don't know you personally, but you are bringing up some good conversation.
> 
> I wasn't really refering to the amount of force used, but more the attitude that many have going in against person with a  knife. Sorry for the miscommunication again. *



No problem, I'm enjoying the conversation.



> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *Although you have trained against a knife (I don't know the extent of your training so I 'll assume it is as realistic as saftey permits)  do you think you average blackbelt (trained MArtist) would react the same way as yourself? *



I would have to say, the "average BB" I would not equate to my level of training, but then again, I have no idea how they train so I guess I can't really say that.



> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *I think if any "properly trained" MArtist came to a point to where they HAD to do somthing the size or type of weapon won't really matter.  For example...to use your street situation - a guy pulls a boxcutter on you and your wife and newborn baby - you can't run and leave your family behind - you see he only has a boxcutter so you stand and fight.  If he had a butcher knife would the situation be any different?  It might look more intimidating, but  i think you'll still defend your family if needed. *



Not neccesarily a different situation, but different strategy and techniques. Someone once said that the person holding the weapon, whatever it may be, is the one at the disadvantage, does no one believe that way ?

7sm


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## Blindside (Dec 24, 2003)

> Not neccesarily a different situation, but different strategy and techniques. Someone once said that the person holding the weapon, whatever it may be, is the one at the disadvantage, does no one believe that way ?



Not me, weapons are tools that make humans more efficient at killing/maiming.  If not, wars would be fought unarmed and that hasn't ever happened.  

Lamont


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## 7starmantis (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> *Not me, weapons are tools that make humans more efficient at killing/maiming.  If not, wars would be fought unarmed and that hasn't ever happened.
> 
> Lamont *



Well, we don't fight wars with boxcutters either. I'm talking about pure, street self-defense.

7sm


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Not neccesarily a different situation, but different strategy and techniques. Someone once said that the person holding the weapon, whatever it may be, is the one at the disadvantage, does no one believe that way ?
> 
> 7sm *




No, I do not believe the person holding the weapon is at a disadvantage, as long as that person knows about the weapon.

If the person is holding the barrel of a gun or the blade of a knife and it is not a being readied to be thrown, then you might say the person holding the weapon is at a disadvantage.

On average the drunk jock wanna be with the aluminum softball bat, may not be the most dangerous person you run across. They could be, yet on average they most likely are not.

You asked about the box cutter in the alley between you and your significant other. For me this would be hard to imagine, as a whole bunch of mistake would ahve to have been made to get the bad guy between me and the person I am trying to protect. Yes, the mistakes couls have been made by one or both. So, ok the mistakes were made. I would respect the box cutter for its capabilities and try to see what the guy wanted. Money NP, here is my wallet. Keys, here they are, no big deal. My life or that of someone I care about, then things are different.

As some people wish to have a tactics forum, this tactic could be discussed there also. Have you ever been in the point position, knowing it was not your job to survive, but to cause as much chaos and havoc in the ranks of the opponents to let the others have the best chance to get to cover or survive the encounter? Not may can do this in a cold and calculating way. Most who get there are just trying to save someone and are not thinking about their ownself.

So, if I had to get him to let go of the one I cared about, I would approach and tell him that anyone could kill a helpless person. A real man would take that blade and take me on, and in the end breath in my last breath. Are willing to try that? I have tried this before and it worked since I am still here. I have tried it when the person had a gun and I was trying to make a point that any fool could pull a trigger, yet a real man would do it with his bare hands or a blade. I played a psych game with them. Knowing I had no chance of retreat and was responsible for the safety of people around me. Yet, I respect the weapon for its attributes. Firearms, easy to fire and range. Blade, more range then empty hands and cutting and stabbing damage. And if empty hands, I assume he has or is trying for a weapon, because I am. I rock on the ground, somethign I pcik up, My belt, etc, ..., . It all depends upon the situation and the time involved.

Yet, I never fell like the guy with the weapon is at a disadvantage. Unless it is just so outrageous it does not make sense like I mentioned grasping the blade or trying to life an eight foot telephone poll, etc, ..., . Yet these are not the weapons I usually had seen. 

Just my opinion though, you can act and beleive as you think best and have your own opinion. I am not always right, nor do I pretend to be.

Enjoy the Holidays and be safe
:asian:


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 24, 2003)

Regarding range, that's a valid point, but it hinges on whether you believe range can be dictated and maintained in a "knife fight."



> Mr Phil, Do you prefer the Meyerco or the Superknife and why? I'm having a hard time deciding. The superknife is also available in a rubberized grip, so its between that one and the myerco. The assist opening would be nice, but not really necessary for my utility needs, especialy if it requires more matenience.



I actually prefer the Meyerco because I find the handle more ergonomic.  The whole thing is larger, which makes a difference -- the Super Knife is nice but just feels too small (and the handle material is a little slippery).



> As a side note, how do you think LEO might react to someone carrying a folding "boxcutter" in post 9/11? I would guess before 9/11 they would see it as a tool stockboys might use, now I think they might see it as a 'terrorist" type weapon.



I think you will raise more eyebrows with a boxcutter "knife" than with a standard utility knife.  In some places, carrying a boxcutter is even explicitly illegal (primarily because, prior to 9/11, small disposable boxcutters had already become popular with teenage miscreants).


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## arnisador (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Regarding range, that's a valid point, but it hinges on whether you believe range can be dictated and maintained in a "knife fight." *



It matters most when both people want to stay outside and play defang the snake. I see this happen in sparring often. Again, it depends on the "rules"--if a single hit, anywhere, ends it, then staying outside makes a lot of sense.

Of course, this knife dueling is not a likely street scenario for most of us.


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## arnisandyz (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> I would have to say, the "average BB" I would not equate to my level of training, but then again, I have no idea how they train so I guess I can't really say that.
> 
> ...


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## arnisandyz (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> Someone once said that the person holding the weapon, whatever it may be, is the one at the disadvantage, does no one believe that way ?
> 
> Another note on weapons.  I know KungFu relates many systems to animal movement so heres an analogy.
> ...


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## arnisador (Dec 24, 2003)

The "weapon as disadvantage" refers, I presume, to the idea that a person holding a weapon can be so focused on that weapon that they forget their other options.

But, a skilled knifer will be using both hands, let alone other parts of their bodies. I wouldn't count on benefiting from the "fact" that the attack must come from the knife and hence is limited and predictable.

Of course, a skilled knifer may well have more than one knife...you may be defending against the right hand quite successfully, only to find...


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## arnisandyz (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *The "weapon as disadvantage" refers, I presume, to the idea that a person holding a weapon can be so focused on that weapon that they forget their other options.
> 
> Agreed,  it can also come from an idealistic spiritual viewpoint.  The disadvantage being the person needs to rely on a weapon to compensate for some shortcoming, mental or physical while the confident weaponless warrior does not need any external "crutch" relying on the power within as the weapon.
> ...


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


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## 7starmantis (Dec 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *Agreed,  it can also come from an idealistic spiritual viewpoint.  The disadvantage being the person needs to rely on a weapon to compensate for some shortcoming, mental or physical while the confident weaponless warrior does not need any external "crutch" relying on the power within as the weapon.
> *



I wasn't going there with it, Bruce Lee is the one who said it, and I have to agree. Why produce a weapon in a fight if your not goign to use it? So your focus is on using that weapon. Now, it can be trained out of you to a degree, but we are talking about an average joe with maybe a year or so of training. Even if you think its not, your holding that weapon in order to use it, and you will tend to force a technique with your weapon without even thinking about it.



> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *If 2 street cats are fighting, would you thing the cat that has all of its claws or the cat that has been declawed would win and why?
> B]*


* 
But we are talking about humans who can learn and train, not instinct.




Originally posted by arnisandyz 
I happen to know many mcDojos that "train" for knife defense, that would really get someone killed if they tried some of what was taught. It really depends on the training, physical and mental.

Click to expand...

Very very true, I completely agree. I just feel more free without a weapon, I prefer none. Even against a weapon. Now there are situations where this doesn't hold true, a gun for example is a weapon not included, and other may apply, but generally speaking, I prefer no weapon, but that stems from my intense open hand training probably.

7sm*


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 25, 2003)

Trying to think yourself into the idea that the guy with the weapon is at a disadvantage facing the guy _without_ is wishful thinking.  It may help "psych you up" to face the weapon, but there's no reasonable person in the world who wouldn't trade places with an armed opponent if given the choice.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Trying to think yourself into the idea that the guy with the weapon is at a disadvantage facing the guy without is wishful thinking.  It may help "psych you up" to face the weapon, but there's no reasonable person in the world who wouldn't trade places with an armed opponent if given the choice. *



Bruce Lee is not considered a reasonable person?

I'm not thinking myself into any belief, and am in no way trying to "psych" myself up. I know firsthand the dangers of defending against a knife. Maybe thats why I train so hard against that situation. I have the medical records and scars to show for the experience I am speaking from. I never in my life want to defend against another knife, but I'm not naive enough to believe I have that choice completely by myself. I'm not saying I want  to fight an armed assailent, but I also don't want to fight an unarmed one. I do feel confident enough in my open hand skill that I would not want a weapon. Your looking at what I'm saying backwards...I'm not saying I want to fight an armed person, but that I want to fight unarmed.

7sm


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## lhommedieu (Dec 25, 2003)

7sm,

Im curious about the kinds of weapons that youve learned in the systems that you are studying.  A cursory look at Seven Star Praying Mantis Kung Fu, Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan, and Wah Lum Preying Mantis Kung Fu (on your profile) at various sites on the web shows that a wide variety of single and double weapons are taught in these systems, including (to name just a few):

dagger
broadsword
long sword
axe
halberd
spear
staff

It would take a rare level of skill to choose _not_ to use these weapons in a fight when the opportunity to use them was present.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## 7starmantis (Dec 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *
> dagger
> broadsword
> ...



Those are all weapons we use, including some traditional ones like the Monk Spade and such. However, as much training as we do in weapons, especially edged weapons, I do at the very least twice as much training in empty hand. Weapons are alot of fun, and are hard to train in and require lots of skill, however I feel more comfortable with no weapon. I feel almost constricted with a weapon in hand, regardless if its against an armed or unarmed opponant.

7sm


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Those are all weapons we use, including some traditional ones like the Monk Spade and such. However, as much training as we do in weapons, especially edged weapons, I do at the very least twice as much training in empty hand. Weapons are alot of fun, and are hard to train in and require lots of skill, however I feel more comfortable with no weapon. I feel almost constricted with a weapon in hand, regardless if its against an armed or unarmed opponant.
> 
> 7sm *



Yes, Weapons are hard to training.

Yet, one of the worst stabbings I witnesses was a total non-trained person against someone bigger and with an ax-handle. Teh guy with the knife just punched and cut the rib cage as the blade went by. The ax handle guy trapped the arm with the blade, and the blade guy just tried to pull his arm and hand free. Mean while he was stabbing and cutting the guy to shreads. The blad entered the rib cage and cut lung and nicked his heart, as well as just ugly damage. The Ax handle guy stepped back, not knowing he was cut, and patted his stomache and said,"You did nto even touch me or cut. See no Blood" All of us were just starring, including the knife guy who could not believe what he had done. One of the friends of the ax handle guy yelled at him to check under his arm. He saw the blood and started walking to a car. he Said, "I think we should go to the hospital now."  All of this with a fixed blade weapon that had entered his body numerous times, punctured his lung and touched his heart. The guy lived, spent 6 weeks in the hospital, and we all spent time in court arguing about who did what and why.

My point is that I have seen novices, grab a blade out of sheer terror and cause damage. If you do not respect the blade or weapon for its attributes, then you will find out the hard way.

Just My Opinion, and Experience.
:asian:


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## 7starmantis (Dec 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *My point is that I have seen novices, grab a blade out of sheer terror and cause damage. If you do not respect the blade or weapon for its attributes, then you will find out the hard way.
> 
> Just My Opinion, and Experience.
> :asian: *



That is a very good point, and I have learned about edged weapons the hard way. I was jumped by a guy with a knife, I didn't know he had. It was one of those situations that you try to walk away from and he wont let you. Needless to say I still have some nasty scars from that evening. I know from experience what they can do. I'm not saying you should grab the blade, there are a myriad of techniques available to an unarmed person against an armed, as well as a myriad available to an armed person. I think not fighting a person with any weapon is a good idea, but sometimes that's not possible. As a paramedic, I've seen 6 inch blades sever ribs and lungs. I'm not saying don't respect them, I'm not even saying I don't respect them, I'm simply saying I don't feel I need to use one.
People are taking that as a cocky statement of my intense skill level, and that is the farthest from what I'm saying, I'm just saying that having a knife doesn't make you any more skilled while attacking someone. Everyone seems to assume that if they have a knife they are going to win, I'm saying that is not always the case, trust me, I've seen it, I've done it.

7sm


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## Cruentus (Dec 26, 2003)

O.K., I am going to attempt to convey my opinions without being rude or insulting, but without sacrificing honesty. So bear with me.


Here are some of your statements: 

"I know the one plane did "revolt" but I just dont see anyone doing any amount of damage to me with one of those before I've broken a knee or two, am I being optomistic? I don't think so."

"My point is that even if you cut me three times with it in the process, I still would have shattered a knee and crushed a windpipe. I just dont see it being a weapon of choice."

"I would have to say, the "average BB" I would not equate to my level of training, but then again, I have no idea how they train so I guess I can't really say that."

"I just feel more free without a weapon, I prefer none. Even against a weapon. Now there are situations where this doesn't hold true, a gun for example is a weapon not included, and other may apply, but generally speaking, I prefer no weapon, but that stems from my intense open hand training probably."


These statements that you have been making sound like they are coming from someone who has NEVER had to defend themselves in real life, or from someone who is, at best, very ignorant of blade encounters, and/or self defense encounters all together. If this is true, then your followup statements about you being attacked with a knife, and so forth, would all be lies.

Now...I am not saying "Your a liar" and I am not saying "Your Ignorant." I don't know you, so I don't know the truth. But, I am telling you how it sounds to me. What you say make you very hard to believe to me.

Now, all I have to say is that it is too bad that your way down there in Texas, and I am way up here in Michigan, or we could solve this arguement very quickly.

I have said this before in othet threads, but I have a sort of "open challange" going here for anyone who is very confident with they're empty hand vs. knife skills. Basically, you try to take MY knife away, and I try to attack and kill you. I give my personal garuntee that more times then not you will be cut several times and fatally...and I don't care who you are or what you've trained in. Now...I am not being a jerk and putting forth an "empty challange." I would of course use a training blade, and I would be careful not to poke or strike in a way that would hurt or injure my challanger. I would also expect that if they are skilled enough to take away my blade, that they wouldn't "crush my throat or break my knees" in the process. It would be a friendly "training challange" but one that I would surely like you to be able to take me up on sometime.

For you, though, I would take the challange even further. You don't have to even disarm my knife. If you could pull of 3 good strikes to my head area, groin area, or knees before I can cut you fatally, then I would be impressed. I would wear a cup, knee pads, and a mouth guard, and you would have foot and hand pads. Again, not an empty challange, but a real challange that could be actually duplicated without risk of injury or law suit.

But for you, I would be happy to TAKE THE CHALLANGE EVEN FURTHER. Since it is said that I have considerable training with the knife, its almost not fair to do the challange with me. So, I would propose that we could even do it with a determined attacker with little or no martial arts experience. We would have to find someone we agreed on, of course. Now, since we agree that the Hijackers had some training, I would bet that I could train the average joe for 15 minutes with a knife, and that average joe could kill most trained martial artists. So, this average joe would get 15 minutes of training with me, and then they would do the challange with you. I'll bet that you get cut quite a few times, fatelly, even with the untrained attacker.

Anyways...its too bad that we are so far away, because if we were closer, I would want to do this today. If you are ever up in Michigan, or I am in Texas, I want to do this challange. We can notify each other by PM. The challange is open to anyone, really, but I specifically would like YOU to take me up on the offer.

Since I doubt that this will be a reality, I have to say that until its proven to me different, I have serious doubts about what you say.

With respect,

Paul Janulis


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## angrywhitepajamas (Dec 26, 2003)

I don't know about you guys but I'm more wary of people who do not have any knife training.  You don't know what they are going to do and if they are scared, they don't know what they are going to do either.  they just react.  

In addition what type of training woulf you guys recomend for a beginner in cabales escrima.


And If I may ask, Arinisador , where did you come by the information on the deceased flight atendents??


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## Cruentus (Dec 26, 2003)

Whoops...I made a mistake with a wrong post...sorry.


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## lhommedieu (Dec 26, 2003)

There are numerous accounts and time-lines to be found on the web that detail the events of 9/11.  I can't vouch for their authenticity, but I suppose you could look up the newspaper and t.v. news sources cited.  Here's one (I starred out the names out of respect for the individuals involved):

(8:21 a.m.) Another Flight 11 attendant, ********, calls American Airlines ground manager ********** and speaks calmly to him for 25 minutes until the plane crashes. Supposedly the call is not recorded but ********** took notes. [ABC News, 7/18/02] However, the Boston Globe says it has a transcript of the call. [Boston Globe, 11/23/01] Her first comment is, "Listen, and listen to me very carefully. I'm on Flight 11. The airplane has been hijacked." She identifies four hijackers (not the five said to be on the plane) and gives the seat numbers for them. Even before the plane crashes, staff are able to determine the names, phone numbers, addresses, and credit card information for these four hijackers, including Mohamed Atta and Abdulaziz Alomari. _She reports that two flight attendants have been stabbed and a passenger has had his throat slashed_ (my emphasis).  She says the hijackers seem to be of Middle Eastern descent. ["Over the next 25 minutes," ABC News, 7/18/02, AP, 10/5/01]

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## arnisador (Dec 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by angrywhitepajamas _
> *I don't know about you guys but I'm more wary of people who do not have any knife training.  *



I sometimes feel that way about empty-hand, but not the knife. Give me someone who basically punches with it!



> *And If I may ask, Arinisador , where did you come by the information on the deceased flight atendents?? *



Thanks *lhommedieu* for your post addressing this issue, as O was going from memory!


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## arnisador (Dec 26, 2003)

I understand *7starmantis*'s psoition. He's going to fight with what he knows. He may well be better off with his familiar empty hands than with an unfamiliar weapon. how often do we say, Don't use a weapon you don't know?

I'm reminded of a story of Angel Cabales (I think--I read this in a book at *Renegade*'s school). He was to fight someone (or possibly a pair of opponents) who used two sticks. He had the opportunity to use two sticks himself but said No, I have to use what I have trained with, what I know--the single stick. He won. I think one can find similar stories related to Miyamoto Musashi.

So, for him, if he was faced with a knife fighter, he might be best off not using a knife himself. *PAUL*, if you were being attacked by a knight wielding a mace, is it clear that you'd be better off using a mace yourself despite a lack of experience with it, or going in empty-hand against it? I might favour the latter, frankly.

It's a common refrain from those of us in the FMA and Indonesian martial arts that others don't understand how deadly the blade can be. On the other hand, look at how many people here--myself included--have lived to tell of being attacked by a knife-wileding thug. They're not all experts out on the street (which is the anticipated threat).

The problem is when those in traditional martial arts can't see that the blade can be used in a waythat is not merely an extension of the thrusts and chops they already know.

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6346


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## 7starmantis (Dec 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *These statements that you have been making sound like they are coming from someone who has NEVER had to defend themselves in real life, or from someone who is, at best, very ignorant of blade encounters, and/or self defense encounters all together. If this is true, then your followup statements about you being attacked with a knife, and so forth, would all be lies.
> 
> Now...I am not saying "Your a liar" and I am not saying "Your Ignorant." I don't know you, so I don't know the truth. But, I am telling you how it sounds to me. What you say make you very hard to believe to me.*



I'm sorry you find it hard to believe me, I'm trying to understand and have good conversation being as honest as I can. If my confidence in my empty hand skills makes you not believe me, then I say be careful of your comments that would make me doubt your knife skills such as.... 

"you try to take MY knife away, and I try to attack and kill you."

"you will be cut several times and fatally...and I don't care who you are or what you've trained in."

These are statements that equate to mine. I believe that you truly feel you are that good or skilled, but it does make me doubt the truthfullness of that.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Now, all I have to say is that it is too bad that your way down there in Texas, and I am way up here in Michigan, or we could solve this arguement very quickly.
> 
> But for you, I would be happy to TAKE THE CHALLANGE EVEN FURTHER...*



It sure does sound to me Paul, that you are trying to be a jerk, but thats cool. I'm not on this board personally challenging anyone, I'm just expressing my concerns and beliefs about martial arts. If you are ever in Texas, I would be happy to take you up for a friendly challenge, however either way it turned out would not change the fact that I would prefer no weapon in a fight.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Since I doubt that this will be a reality, I have to say that until its proven to me different, I have serious doubts about what you say.*


Thats ok Paul, you write me off because it makes you more comfortable. I don't present myself as better than anyone on this forum, but you seem to feel differently. I'm simply stating my beliefs. You have stated yours and I could say the exact same thing to you, but I understand that you are confident in your training, as well you should be, and that doesn't mean you are a complete liar, but maybe just a martial artist.

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Dec 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *It's a common refrain from those of us in the FMA and Indonesian martial arts that others don't understand how deadly the blade can be. On the other hand, look at how many people here--myself included--have lived to tell of being attacked by a knife-wileding thug. They're not all experts out on the street (which is the anticipated threat).
> *



I seem to be seeing this here, I don't mean to be "disrespecting" the knife, I understand its dangers, as well I do the Sum Gi Cuan (three-sectional staff), however, I don't really want to fight with one. I've seen what a knife can do firsthand as a paramedic, and myself in the encounter I had, I respect it, but I feel comfortable without one.

Again let me say, people seem to be taking what I'm saying backwards...I'm simply saying I don't want to use one in a fight, not that I would prefer to fight someone with a knife and myself be unarmed. Whether my opponent is armed or unarmed, I prefer to be unarmed.

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Dec 26, 2003)

I started a new thread about this, because I felt we were getting off topic here. 

See: New Thread 

7sm


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 27, 2003)

7StarMantis,

Let us make a few assumptions here. 

First, you are well trained and fell more than comfortable handling a knife.

Second, you choose not to approach or defend yourself with a make shift weapon.

Third, I am not being presumptuous or condenscending or insulting with my assumptions.

You are trained professional, and you are also a trained Martial Artist. You may and have done techniques and stuff in general that the person off the street would not be able to do nor feel comfortable to do.

It is fine for you to personally believe that you can handle a knife or boxcutter and to train for it.

The only issue(s) I have had were the way you said certain things in the written word here. As has been written before, you cannot see smile , inflection of body language here. You as a trained preofessional and trained martial artist may choose to think or react or act in a certain way. Thsoe who train with the knife a lot feel it is important to let people know that the knife is dangerous. I know you and everyone else is going DUH! it has an edge. Yet, many people only train against the knife in a static format with over committed punch/thrust strikes. The Novices out there will think they can ignore the dangers of the knife.

Now for example, you might be able to kick a knee or to trap a punch or hit a face, quite easily, when the techniques are done in singles. Yet when the first time you spar, it becomes much more difficult and your timing is all off, and you get hit and or miss the opponent. Just as the trained boxer, martial artist, etc, ..., has their fakes and jabs, so does knife fighting. The big difference is that with impact weapons you can take the trauma, and still react, where with edged weapons, you make be in risk of bleeding out. Yes, I know you personally are trained to avoid being cut in vital areas. The average joe on the street is not.

The next time you spar someone, do not tell the person you are sparring, that you imagine that there are blades attached to there hands and feet. And that every time you are touched, you will be bleeding from that spot. Remember where you were touched, and see what it reveals to just yourself.


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## Cruentus (Dec 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I'm sorry you find it hard to believe me, I'm trying to understand and have good conversation being as honest as I can. If my confidence in my empty hand skills makes you not believe me, then I say be careful of your comments that would make me doubt your knife skills such as....
> 
> "you try to take MY knife away, and I try to attack and kill you."
> ...



Couple of things (and I'll keep it short).

My "wrong post" was because I wrote something else that belonged in another forum, and I couldn't delete my post. I ment everything I said in my reply to you.

I am not trying to be a jerk, nor trying to show false confidence in my skills. I am just saying that it seems to me that you might not understand the dynamics of a blade. An untrained person doesn't have to have "superhuman skills" to cut you. He basically has to touch you with the blade and you are cut. It's that simple for him. You however have to prevent him from touching you; much more difficult. If someone is simply not overextending their strikes, and slicing wildly in all directions (with no skill) you will have a hard time dealing with it, no matter what your training is. And, with every little touch and cut, you are losing your capability to fight. And...it happends faster then you think. Read my first response...that is an accurate discription of what could happend to any trained person against a barely trained knife fighter. 

Now...are knife fighters invincable...no. No one is. But the responses I got for you is "I'd just break his knees and colapse his throat, even if I have to take a few cuts"; a "its no big deal, I'm so confident in skilled" type of a response. Every time I have heard this before, its all been bulls***. 

If you prefer to not use a knife...fine, I can respect that. But, I find your comment to be overconfident and niave sounding.

PAUL


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## arnisador (Dec 27, 2003)

Weren't you the same before being exposed to FMA? I know I was. "I know Karate, I can handle a guy with a knife--No Problem!" I didn't know what I didn't know.

It's more different than people think.


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## arnisador (Dec 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Thanks, I ordered one! *



It arrived yesterday. I got the rubberized handle version from www.superknife.com. As I had ordered it on the evening of 23 Dec., this was fast service! 

It seems like a handy little knife. I can definitely see its attractiveness as a work knife.

The handle is a bit smaller than I'd like. It opens easily with a snap of the wrist, but with two-handed openings I find it a little bit touchy about locking into place--when I open it two-handed, or one-handed with the thumb stud, I often have to give an extra push to get it to "click" into a locked position. This hasn't been an issue when I simply snap it open, save for the first time I did it. Perhaps it's mostly a matter of me adjusting to the knife, but other folders of a similar design don't seem to fail to lock nearly as often for me.

For the price--$22.50 plus $5 S&H, including a (velcro) belt sheath and refill blades--I'm happy with it.


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## arnisandyz (Dec 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *It arrived yesterday. I got the rubberized handle version from www.superknife.com
> 
> Thanks for the review!  I agree, for the price it would be a great little work knife to keep handy. I'll probably buy a bunch as gifts for my uncles, cousins etc.  too bad I found out about it to late for this Christmas.*


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## 7starmantis (Dec 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Weren't you the same before being exposed to FMA? I know I was. "I know Karate, I can handle a guy with a knife--No Problem!" I didn't know what I didn't know.
> 
> It's more different than people think. *



It is, but I have been exposed to it very much, from being attacked, and seriously cut...to training with the knife. 
I do understand the dynamics of it.

7sm


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## Makalakumu (Dec 28, 2003)

"I knife that is going to kill you is a knife that you won't see."  These are my instructor's words.  He also says, "if a person pulls a knife on you and asks for your wallet, give it too him.  If he asks you to go with him, fight."

I trained in Japanese Martial arts for 9 years before I switch to my current instructor in TSD/arnis (my instructor is a 4th dan in TSD and a Mastro in Arnis).  The knife work we did in karate was horse sh...  The moment I walked into an arnis class and put some red paint on a foam knife, I learned the truth.  It took about three seconds.  

Anyway, we did an experiment at a knife seminar once.  My instructor picked six men out of a crowd of beginners.  Three he trained for 30 minutes in the use of a knife and three he put out into the hall.  Then he put them all against empty handed black belts.  

Untrained had a 20 percent kill rate.  Trained had 50 percent.  One half hour of training in the knife is all it took to even the odds against a guy with a minimum of 5 years.  

Consequently, if I am faced with a knife, I'm going to be using foot jutsu if I can.  Am I a coward or am I prudent?


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## arnisador (Dec 28, 2003)

It's amazing how little training it takes to make someone very dangerous (as opposed to merely dangerous) with the knife. I've had a simialr experience--one lesson gives them lots of the ideas.

For some, that lesson comes while in prison!


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## Cruentus (Dec 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Weren't you the same before being exposed to FMA? I know I was. "I know Karate, I can handle a guy with a knife--No Problem!" I didn't know what I didn't know.
> 
> It's more different than people think. *



lol....I was exposed to FMA in 1990....and I was born in 1978. I didn't know what I didn't know mainly because I was too young to know anything anyways!


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## arnisador (Dec 29, 2003)

You know, I knew that about you but had forgotten!

Well, the point is that it's more different than people realize.


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 30, 2003)

"Martial" artists who harbor irrational fear of weapons are deluding themselves.  There can be no self-defense in an environment built on the evasion of reality.


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## Cruentus (Dec 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *"Martial" artists who harbor irrational fear of weapons are deluding themselves.  There can be no self-defense in an environment built on the evasion of reality. *



Yes...an irrational fear is not good. A realistic understanding is, however.


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 30, 2003)

Those who understand the _realistic_ applications and _limitations_ of [any given weapon] do not fear [weapons] at all.  That is why there are so few _real_ shooters who support gun control.  Every now and again the left-wingers try to produce someone they claim is on their side who is also an "avid shooter," but they're not often legitimate.

[edited for clarification]


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## Makalakumu (Dec 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Those who understand the realistic applications and limitations of [any given weapon] do not fear [weapons] at all.  That is why there are so few real shooters who support gun control.  Every now and again the left-wingers try to produce someone they claim is on their side who is also an "avid shooter," but they're not often legitimate.
> 
> [edited for clarification] *



What would you classify as a real shooter?  I would consider myself rather left politically, yet I have been hunting since I was a child and I own three guns - a 44 mag, 12 gauge, and a 7mm mag rifle.  With each of these weapons I can put up a quarter grouping.  Am I a "real shooter?"  Just curious...


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## arnisador (Dec 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *What would you classify as a real shooter? *



Please, no! Don't answer!


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## Makalakumu (Dec 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Please, no! Don't answer! *



Sorry, I sensed a stereotype that needed a little shaking.  It's an assumption though and many times I am completely wrong.  Wrong forum for this discussion anyway...


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## lhommedieu (Dec 31, 2003)

I can sense that discussion on this issue will likely mirror the one held previously on this thread:

Duck season!
Rabbit season!
Duck season...

It's been an enjoyable discussion, but I don't think I can take any more.

Respectfully,

Steve Lamade


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 31, 2003)

A "real shooter" is someone who is educated, trained, and experienced in the use of firearms -- as opposed to the "shooters" dragged out by gun control shills every once in a great while, who are generally lying about their knowledge of guns.  One example that comes readily to mind was some fellow who claimed to be a shooter but supported a ban on so-called "junk guns."  Can't have poor people defending themselves, after all.


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## Makalakumu (Dec 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *A "real shooter" is someone who is educated, trained, and experienced in the use of firearms -- as opposed to the "shooters" dragged out by gun control shills every once in a great while, who are generally lying about their knowledge of guns.  One example that comes readily to mind was some fellow who claimed to be a shooter but supported a ban on so-called "junk guns."  Can't have poor people defending themselves, after all. *



Good Point.


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## arnisador (Dec 31, 2003)

http://www.folders-r-us.org/

The "Terminology" section was useful for me!


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## arnisador (May 26, 2004)

I love this boxcutter, by the way. I'm going to order a second one so I don't have to keep ferrying this one back and forth between home and work. There's now an assisted open version:
http://www.1sks.com/store/meyerco-speed-assisted-razor-knife.html


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