# Question about the Godai



## KageMusha (Sep 17, 2006)

First of all, Hi.  This is my first post.  I have been reading this forum for a while and have gotten alot of info from it, but haven't posted until now.

I am still new to the Bujinkan with just under a year of training, but I am very curious of how other dojos present and train the Godai.  I like the idea of it, but do not fully understand it yet.  Any help would be great.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 17, 2006)

The concept of godai is a relic from the past, in which there were a whole lot of inaccuracies floating around as to what was really being taught in Japan. So I suggest you stop worrying about it and concentrate on moving your feet and affecting the other person's balance.


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## Fu_Bag (Sep 17, 2006)

KageMusha,

What you may find out here is that the Godai training method that was originally spread in the 80's isn't looked upon so nicely by some people.  There should be heaps of information on this topic scattered around the Ninjutsu section.  Check all of that out and you'll see what I mean.  At the very least, I think that Don Roley and Kizaru have discussed how those who live and train in Japan see the issue.  That is a very good place to start.

Take care,

Fu Bag


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## eyebeams (Sep 18, 2006)

KageMusha said:


> First of all, Hi. This is my first post. I have been reading this forum for a while and have gotten alot of info from it, but haven't posted until now.
> 
> I am still new to the Bujinkan with just under a year of training, but I am very curious of how other dojos present and train the Godai. I like the idea of it, but do not fully understand it yet. Any help would be great.



It's no longer used by the Bujinkan. The idea of the elements ocasionally turns up outside of the Bujinkan and outside of Stephen Hayes (but within the Takamatsuden), despite the fact that he was supposed to have made it up. At this point, you cannot get a definitive answer without risking your standing in the Bujinkan.


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## Kreth (Sep 18, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> At this point, you cannot get a definitive answer without risking your standing in the Bujinkan.


This is silly. The Go Dai is not a Bujinkan thing. It was something Hayes developed when he was busy dumbing things down for us ign'ant Americans...


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## Don Roley (Sep 18, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> It's no longer used by the Bujinkan. The idea of the elements ocasionally turns up outside of the Bujinkan and outside of Stephen Hayes (but within the Takamatsuden), despite the fact that he was supposed to have made it up. At this point, you cannot get a definitive answer without risking your standing in the Bujinkan.



I have to second Kreth on this. To be no longer used by the Bujinkan, it had to have been used by the Bujinkan at some point.

The godai in the san shin is a form of counting. Certain sections of certain schools are supposed to be done with the feeling of water, or air- but not earth or the rest of the godai. Thus it is not the Godai as is written about by Stephen Hayes.

The system that Stephen Hayes came up with was supposed to be a gap between what he learned in Japan and the western audiences he was writing for. The mental ideas that he came up with for the various elements are not part and have never been part of the teaching of the Bujinkan. It may be of value, but it is not part of the Bujinkan and never has.


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## eyebeams (Sep 18, 2006)

Kreth said:


> This is silly. The Go Dai is not a Bujinkan thing. It was something Hayes developed when he was busy dumbing things down for us ign'ant Americans...



I've read at least references to elemental qualities (specifically invoked by mudra) in the Genbukan.

Hm! What's this in Sanmyaku #3?


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## Kreth (Sep 18, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> I've read at least references to elemental qualities (specifically invoked by mudra) in the Genbukan.
> 
> Hm! What's this in Sanmyaku #3?


References to elemental influences != Go Dai


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## Don Roley (Sep 18, 2006)

Kreth said:


> References to elemental influences != Go Dai



Again, with the voice of reason.

There are mudras with elemental influences. They are not what Hayes developed and taught. If you read what Hayes wrote you will not be getting the lessons that are taught in Japan. There have been a lot of people that looked at these references and jumped to conclusions based on their past reading of Hayes' stuff. So Hayes' writings in many ways harmed others in their study of Bujinkan.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 18, 2006)

Kreth and Don and right on based on what I have been taught.  The godai is more of a Stephen Hayes thing and now a To Shin do aspect.  Definately not Bujinkan. 

Have we busted this *myth* yet?


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## Tengu6 (Sep 18, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Kreth and Don and right on based on what I have been taught. The godai is more of a Stephen Hayes thing and now a To Shin do aspect. Definately not Bujinkan.
> 
> Have we busted this *myth* yet?


 
The Godai is definately a SKH thing, at least the way he uses it. There is a huge problem with this method, and that is because he ties certain Kamae to these feelings, and since you spend roughly 9 months to a year in each "element", there are certain kamae such as Kosei, Hira Ichimonji, Jumonji, Hoko, Doko that you will not see or work with for years. 

Also, you think you can only move forward in Jumonji, and backward in Ichimonji......

I always felt like he had all these starving students and only fed you enough to keep you alive but still hungry.......and he had the only food. I was in that system for a year before I even _knew_ about the Bujinkan, and I only found out by accident.

Markk Bush
www.bujinmag.com


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## Cryozombie (Sep 18, 2006)

So when I study Koyoku, should I be in "Fire" mode, or "Wind" Mode?

LOL

Sorry guys.  Couldnt help myself.​


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## eyebeams (Sep 18, 2006)

Kreth said:


> References to elemental influences != Go Dai



Actually, the index (reproduced at http://www.japanesetranslations.co.uk/bujinkan/sanmyakuindex.htm) says, and I quote:

"Chi-Sui-Ka-Fu-Ku = Go-dai"

That's kinda, sorta, the exact opposite of what you're saying.


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## Don Roley (Sep 18, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> Actually, the index (reproduced at http://www.japanesetranslations.co.uk/bujinkan/sanmyakuindex.htm) says, and I quote:
> 
> "Chi-Sui-Ka-Fu-Ku = Go-dai"
> 
> That's kinda, sorta, the exact opposite of what you're saying.



But of course, we are talking about what Hayes created and not quibbling over terms.

Yes, there is a method of counting called the godai. We use it in the sanshin and even the classifications of the highest rank in the Bujinkan. 

No, the stuff that Hayes does is not what is taught in Japan. The feelings he tries to put you into for certain techniques are wrong from the context of the Bujinkan.

And no, asking questions about it will not endanger your standing in the Bujinkan...:bs1:


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## eyebeams (Sep 18, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> But of course, we are talking about what Hayes created and not quibbling over terms.
> 
> Yes, there is a method of counting called the godai. We use it in the sanshin and even the classifications of the highest rank in the Bujinkan.
> 
> No, the stuff that Hayes does is not what is taught in Japan. The feelings he tries to put you into for certain techniques are wrong from the context of the Bujinkan.



I've also read various people talking about the feel of this or that technique in elemental terms (even in this thread!), as well as it being mentioned in respect to the application of a kuji-in feel to kamae. Not all of these people were connected to Hayes.

As for "what is taught in Japan," lots and lots of instructors use a syllabus different from what's taught in Japan. As for the "feel," the Hayes-line teacher I worked with cautioned students not to force a feeling into a particular technique arbitrarily, so I have a suspicion that people assume that Hayes' approach is much simpler than it actually is.



> And no, asking questions about it will not endanger your standing in the Bujinkan...:bs1:



It depends on who you ask, doesn't it? Or is it OK to train with a Genbukan dojo to find out about Tanemura's use of elemental principles in training?


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## Don Roley (Sep 18, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> I've also read various people talking about the feel of this or that technique in elemental terms (even in this thread!), as well as it being mentioned in respect to the application of a kuji-in feel to kamae. Not all of these people were connected to Hayes.



Gary,

The amount of people that can talk with authority about kuji-in as used in the Bujinkan are very low. The amount of people that make things up like kuji-in and elemental feelings are much greater. And I think that most of us started off reading Hayes and our outlook is thus influenced. We see things we think we are going to see.

If you really care about the matter, take it up with Hatsumi. I am telling you what I have heard and been taught for years here in Japan. Why the hell would I lie? 

And your comment about the Genbukan is just not relevent to this discussion at all. Asking questions will not endanger your standing in the Bujinkan as you tried to say. But both the Genbukan and the Bujinkan have policies against training with each other due to some issues the heads have with each other.


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## eyebeams (Sep 19, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Gary,



My real name is Malcolm Sheppard. I'm not affiliated with anything-kan or toshin-whatever. I briefly trained with J. Courtland Elliot and some of his students when he was offering Ninpo-based self-defense in Toronto in the early 90s and I have quite a bit of affection for the Takamatsuden. According to some quick research, Elliot is listed as a Bujinkan judan, but he was also one of Hayes' students. I have no idea what he's up to now and wish him well.

And lest you think I'm some kind of Toshindo stooge, let it be known that I sent a politely worded email to SKHQuest asking if Hayes held any menkyo in the Takamatsuden. I have yet to recieve a reply, which disappoints me.



> The amount of people that can talk with authority about kuji-in as used in the Bujinkan are very low. The amount of people that make things up like kuji-in and elemental feelings are much greater. And I think that most of us started off reading Hayes and our outlook is thus influenced. We see things we think we are going to see.



I haven't actually read anything by Hayes other than brief articles. The balance of the reading I can remember is some Jack Hoban and Charles Daniel, Essence of Ninjutsu and the Grandmaster's Book.

In any event, I wonder if Hayes' use of the godai with Buinkan training (not Toshindo) has been overstated. If you read articles in Ura and Omote by people who used this method they emphatically deny that there are rigid postures and protocols for each element or just one element per technique, which seems to be the defacto assumption here.



> If you really care about the matter, take it up with Hatsumi. I am telling you what I have heard and been taught for years here in Japan. Why the hell would I lie?



Nobody's accusing anybody of lying. As I said in the big thread at e-budo, I think many of the changes have to do with a perspective that is sincere but not strictly factual. The truth related to documented facts is not the same as the truth that comes from progressive "Daikomyo." Some things are, from a certain perspective, true and have always been true if they result from what is regarded as a deeper revelation about the nature of the art. As a Bujinkan yudansha, you are doubtless obligated to follow that feeling as much as you would the feel of a given technique. That's not deceptive at all, but for the purposes of historical and hoplological study, revelation and historicity need to be more clearly differentiated than they do in the internal tradition of an art.



> And your comment about the Genbukan is just not relevent to this discussion at all. Asking questions will not endanger your standing in the Bujinkan as you tried to say. But both the Genbukan and the Bujinkan have policies against training with each other due to some issues the heads have with each other.



Given that the only way to find this sort of thing out meaningfully would be to actually train with the Genbukan, this is kind of a non-starter.


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## Don Roley (Sep 19, 2006)

Sorry about the slip up. I thought you were named Gary for some reason.



eyebeams said:


> In any event, I wonder if Hayes' use of the godai with Buinkan training (not Toshindo) has been overstated. If you read articles in Ura and Omote by people who used this method they emphatically deny that there are rigid postures and protocols for each element or just one element per technique, which seems to be the defacto assumption here.



Well I am going by what Hayes wrote in his books on the subject. What he writes in those is quite a bit different from how the art has been taught in Japan. It has never been the way he portrays it.

I understand you do not have a lot of experience in the subject matter, but if you did, if you had come to Japan and trained and talked with the people that were around at the time as well as read the sources from the time in question, there has not ever been use of the godai as Hayes laid it out in his books. It is a system of counting. The mental aspects of the art are quite different from the way Hayes presents them.

I understand how some people can be a bit testy with you. Try to look at it from an outsider's viewpoint. You are a kenpo/ kung fu guy who has never been in the Bujinkan trying to tell people who are in the Bujinkan and in many cases have trained in Japan with Hatsumi what the real story of their art is.

Isn't that a bit strange when you think about it?


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## eyebeams (Sep 19, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Sorry about the slip up. I thought you were named Gary for some reason.
> 
> Well I am going by what Hayes wrote in his books on the subject. What he writes in those is quite a bit different from how the art has been taught in Japan. It has never been the way he portrays it.



Well, some say that and some don't. Since my experience comes from a period before Hayes' alienation from the Bujinkan, I'm inclined to be skeptical.



> I understand how some people can be a bit testy with you. Try to look at it from an outsider's viewpoint. You are a kenpo/kung fu guy who has never been in the Bujinkan trying to tell people who are in the Bujinkan and in many cases have trained in Japan with Hatsumi what the real story of their art is.
> 
> Isn't that a bit strange when you think about it?



The "real story" will be whatever the dominant narrative is that emerges from people talking and the customs of the organization -- and I've already alluded to some of the dynamics I suspect are in play there. I'm not trying to "convince" anyone of anything, but I do encourage people to dissect their experiences carefully. 

Am I skeptical that the Bujinkan has always taught in one way and always had the same stories about its traditions and practices? Yes I am, but such situations are not especially unusual and that it does not indicate any kind of intentional deception.

You and others have often remarked on people misunderstanding this or that element of the Bujinkan because of a cultural gap, but it works both ways. Some koryu claim their techniques have been unchanged for an unlikely amount of time. Others claim a supernatural element in their pedigree or that they were inspired by a religious or spiritual experience. These kinds of narratives occur in the present day (Tanemura's Iga Hakuun Ryu) and Hatsumi is no "atheist" when it comes to these things himself. The fact that these things are accepted parts of the narrative, combined with the authority Hatsumi holds, means that when you say such and such a thing is true, it might not be true with the contexts of people who are not a part of that set of customs. What is true according to internal tradition is not enough when that tradition has its own standards of truth.

As for me, I'm engaged in research for my own edification. That means asking questions and encouraging others to do the same, and those questions are not bound by what is customary in any particular organization, except to the particular people I feel I owe face to.


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## Don Roley (Sep 19, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> Well, some say that and some don't. Since my experience comes from a period before Hayes' alienation from the Bujinkan, I'm inclined to be skeptical.



To be more precise, you trained with Court Elliott, who was mainly associated with Hayes. You heard the stories as Hayes put it out and from his people.

You can dress up what you say in a lot of different ways, but you have not been to Japan, not seen the sources I have and yet you are trying to say that you know what is part of the Bujinkan better than people who have for more experience in it than you.

If you think that you are right, then write to Hatsumi (in Japanese) for clarification. He will tell you straight out. You might also try asking people that were there when you were not, or translating some of the older books in Japanese for explinations of the Godai as Hayes explains them- i.e. they don't exist.

Or you could just admit you were wrong, learn from the experience and move on.


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## eyebeams (Sep 19, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> To be more precise, you trained with Court Elliott, who was mainly associated with Hayes. You heard the stories as Hayes put it out and from his people.



I don't recall Court Elliot mentioning Stephen Hayes aside from the time Hayes came to Toronto to do a lecture (when he said, "Stephen Hayes is in Toronto, holding a lecture at U of T at such and such a time"). I found out who taught him by asking a random student.



> You can dress up what you say in a lot of different ways, but you have not been to Japan, not seen the sources I have and yet you are trying to say that you know what is part of the Bujinkan better than people who have for more experience in it than you.



And you can dress up the fact that you're a part of an innately authoritarian organization run by a guy who believes in psychic powers, the spirits of the dead floating by his ear and tapeworm cures via shugendo magic as well - hell, I've taken pains to be respectful of the cultural worldview surrounding the Bujinkan, but you are apparently confusing this discussion for a fight, so I suppose I will have to be indelicate. There are reasons that all of what I said exists and I have a measure of respect for that. But that doesn't change the fact that this affects the kind of information that source and its representatives are going to provide -- even if it makes sense in a certain cultural context.



> If you think that you are right, then write to Hatsumi (in Japanese) for clarification. He will tell you straight out. You might also try asking people that were there when you were not, or translating some of the older books in Japanese for explinations of the Godai as Hayes explains them- i.e. they don't exist.



This is a straw man. I have no doubt that Hayes expanded the godai as the basis for his own martial pedagogy. I am not suggesting that Hayes only adopted a preexisting system whole cloth. But people in this very thread have said that some things have an "elemental" quality and I have read similar statements elsewhere. And of course, I'd love to read that Sanmyaku article.

Meanwhile, for all I care, the Bujinkan, Quest Centers and their respective members and associates can continue mugging each other via backhanded nemawashi or crass commercialism as much as they like.


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## Don Roley (Sep 19, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> I don't recall Court Elliot mentioning Stephen Hayes aside from the time Hayes came to Toronto to do a lecture (when he said, "Stephen Hayes is in Toronto, holding a lecture at U of T at such and such a time"). I found out who taught him by asking a random student.



Doesn't matter what you heard or did not hear. I trained with Court at the '96 Daikomyosai and was there when he passed his godan test. I am quite certain I can say that if you learned stuff from him prior to that, what you learned came from Hayes more than it did from Hatsumi.





eyebeams said:


> And you can dress up the fact that you're a part of an innately authoritarian organization run by a guy who believes in psychic powers, the spirits of the dead floating by his ear and tapeworm cures via shugendo magic as well - hell, I've taken pains to be respectful of the cultural worldview surrounding the Bujinkan, but you are apparently confusing this discussion for a fight, so I suppose I will have to be indelicate. There are reasons that all of what I said exists and I have a measure of respect for that. But that doesn't change the fact that this affects the kind of information that source and its representatives are going to provide -- even if it makes sense in a certain cultural context.



You are wrong about so much of what you say about Hatsumi, the orginization and the culture. I dare say that I know a bit more about the culture than you do and it does not explain away the lack of facts for your argument.



eyebeams said:


> This is a straw man. I have no doubt that Hayes expanded the godai as the basis for his own martial pedagogy. I am not suggesting that Hayes only adopted a preexisting system whole cloth. But people in this very thread have said that some things have an "elemental" quality and I have read similar statements elsewhere. And of course, I'd love to read that Sanmyaku article.



When we talk about the Godai, we are either talking about a system of counting in Japan or the system Hayes set up. When you talk about other things, you are not talking about the godai. There are kata where you are supposed to try to emulate the feeling of water or air (not earth, etc AFAIK) but that is not what Hayes says to do. You have not even read the sanmyaku article. You do not know what you are talking about and seeing that there are references to Earth levels of the judan and thinking that it has something to do with this conversation. But it does not and you just do not know enough to understand that is does not.



eyebeams said:


> Meanwhile, for all I care, the Bujinkan, Quest Centers and their respective members and associates can continue mugging each other via backhanded nemawashi or crass commercialism as much as they like.



You seem to be quite good at it yourself. You might want to tone things down a bit.


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## eyebeams (Sep 19, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Doesn't matter what you heard or did not hear. I trained with Court at the '96 Daikomyosai and was there when he passed his godan test. I am quite certain I can say that if you learned stuff from him prior to that, what you learned came from Hayes more than it did from Hatsumi.



Thank God I managed to recognize ganseki nage that last time I saw a local Bujinkan guy do it, since the Hayes version of that period must be totally wierd and awful, despite looking pretty much the same. Or not.

I must admit I've never been able to understand this Bujinkan eccentricity, where even members of the organization itself can't be trusted for accurate information unless they're Japanese. I can walk downtown and get reliable answers about Daito-Ryu and Iaido from a qualified practitioner, right down to controversies and frank discussions of the difference between history and traditional narrative. But for some strange reason, the far more common arts of the Bujinkan will apparently lead me astray unless I haul *** to Japan. I therefore feel bad for students in places other than Japan.



> You are wrong about so much of what you say about Hatsumi, the orginization and the culture. I dare say that I know a bit more about the culture than you do and it does not explain away the lack of facts for your argument.



Feel free to rebut in detail about how the Bujinkan is a democracy, there's no story about Takamatsu being cured of tapeworms by an ascetic, Hatsumi does not talk about transmitting sakki remotely, and so on. You know and I know that I am not pulling this stuff out of thin air, and I'd be happy to hear more about the context in which you view stories and situations like this.



> When we talk about the Godai, we are either talking about a system of counting in Japan or the system Hayes set up. When you talk about other things, you are not talking about the godai. There are kata where you are supposed to try to emulate the feeling of water or air (not earth, etc AFAIK) but that is not what Hayes says to do.



I'd have to go back to my memory of specific techniques and compare.



> You have not even read the sanmyaku article.



Okay. Let's hear about the article then. I'd be happy to hear responses that are longer on facts than denials.



> You do not know what you are talking about and seeing that there are references to Earth levels of the judan and thinking that it has something to do with this conversation. But it does not and you just do not know enough to understand that is does not.



What? I never brought this up. You seem to be having another episode where you assume I'm that Gary Arthur guy.



> You seem to be quite good at it yourself. You might want to tone things down a bit.



I am neither selling anything nor attempting to create a consensus before getting formal approval from my senior, so no, not really.


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## Don Roley (Sep 19, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> Thank God I managed to recognize ganseki nage that last time I saw a local Bujinkan guy do it, since the Hayes version of that period must be totally wierd and awful, despite looking pretty much the same. Or not.



Just because a ganseki nage is the same does not mean that EVERYTHING that comes from Hayes is the same as it is in Japan and I think you know that.



eyebeams said:


> I must admit I've never been able to understand this Bujinkan eccentricity, where even members of the organization itself can't be trusted for accurate information unless they're Japanese.



False accusation. I never mentioned Japanese even though all the guys that were there the longest are Japanese. If you ask someone like Doron Navron or Quinton Chambers about the godai you will get the same answer I am giving you. What Hayes taught is not the same as it was taught in the past. Trying to make this a racial issue is not cool.


 I can walk downtown and get reliable answers about Daito-Ryu and Iaido from a qualified practitioner, right down to controversies and frank discussions of the difference between history and traditional narrative. But for some strange reason, the far more common arts of the Bujinkan will apparently lead me astray unless I haul *** to Japan. I therefore feel bad for students in places other than Japan.





eyebeams said:


> Feel free to rebut in detail about how the Bujinkan is a democracy, there's no story about Takamatsu being cured of tapeworms by an ascetic, Hatsumi does not talk about transmitting sakki remotely, and so on. You know and I know that I am not pulling this stuff out of thin air, and I'd be happy to hear more about the context in which you view stories and situations like this.



We are not a democracy, but we are not required to do certain things and always back the party line. You merely need to read the posts here to see that. You portrayal of us like we were a cult just because we will not accept your version of events is not going to go over well.

I honestly feel like I am dealing with one of those conspiracy theorists. When people who are in a better position to know give a statement that runs counter to what you want to believe, you say that it is because they are part of the conspiracy.


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## eyebeams (Sep 19, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Just because a ganseki nage is the same does not mean that EVERYTHING that comes from Hayes is the same as it is in Japan and I think you know that.



Sure. Hayes invented kata. He and his students have made it clear on several occasions that the godai was never strictly hardwired to a given technique in such and such a fashion, or applied exclusively.

To repeat: I am not asserting that the all-encompassing, Hayes style godai existed before Hayes developed it.



> False accusation. I never mentioned Japanese even though all the guys that were there the longest are Japanese. If you ask someone like Doron Navron or Quinton Chambers about the godai you will get the same answer I am giving you. What Hayes taught is not the same as it was taught in the past. Trying to make this a racial issue is not cool.



I would hope for a more nuanced answer, actually. And though it's been like pulling teeth, you have provided one when you talked about earth not being a distinct feeling in the Bujinkan. This is actually quite useful to me on a number of levels. I wonder about how this sort of thing is treated in the Gnebukan, given their dojo kun. There's an opportunity to meet Shoto Tanemura coming up that I may take advantage of if I can get the cash together.

And nationality and location isn't race. I have heard things that I consider overly Asiaphiliac from a few people, but not from you or in this thread.



> We are not a democracy, but we are not required to do certain things and always back the party line. You merely need to read the posts here to see that. You portrayal of us like we were a cult just because we will not accept your version of events is not going to go over well.



Don, you chose to be offended. When I originally brought this stuff up, I said it was acceptable in a certain context. What part of that did you misunderstand? I find nothing wrong with this kind of folklore and spiritual traditions. They are not the same as historical truth, but historical truth is not necessarily "better."

A for a "party line:" There are people you are not allowed to train with and policies you must follow, and a culture of consensus in keeping with organizational tradition. Of *course* it's a party line. Again, there's nothing wrong with it, and I never said there was.But it isn't conducive to certain lines of questioning, either. 



> I honestly feel like I am dealing with one of those conspiracy theorists. When people who are in a better position to know give a statement that runs counter to what you want to believe, you say that it is because they are part of the conspiracy.



Don, in this thread you've implied I'm a sockpuppet for a banned Toshindo guy and accused me of a number of things, up to and including something to do with the judan levels that I never even wrote and found bizarre to read. You are onviously following a train of thought that is becoming more and more divorced from what I am actually saying.

As for anyone else, I would appreciate any account of that Sanmyaku article.


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## Kizaru (Sep 19, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> ...tapeworm cures via shugendo magic as well....


 
What's wrong with Shugendo?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 19, 2006)

Malcolm,

You have to understand that when Stephen Hayes published his books he was just starting along on the path of Budo Taijutsu under Hatsumi. (he was just a beginner)  He made many mistakes that anyone would have made given his understanding of the language and art.  I know for a fact that I have been at a Doron Navon seminar a long, long, long time ago where he mentioned very casually that Hayes's Godai was not correct and that he had elaborated on it.  Don Roley has given you good information.  The Godai is a counting system in Budo Taijutsu and not at all like what Hayes used early on and uses now in To Shin Do.  Those are the facts and you can verify them with pretty much any Bujinkan Shidoshi, Shihan throughout the world by simply emailing them. (though some who were with Hayes might still hold onto a little of the old days)  If you are still interested in Budo Taijutsu I would urge you to join a Bujinkan Dojo and go to Japan and see Hatsumi.  It certainly is an eye opener!  Good luck in your training.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 19, 2006)

As for spirits floating around etc. - Hatsumi sensei once "allowed" some American guy to become the next Soke.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 19, 2006)

> I wonder about how this sort of thing is treated in the Gnebukan, given their dojo kun. There's an opportunity to meet Shoto Tanemura coming up that I may take advantage of if I can get the cash together.




I was gonna stay out of this alltogether, because I don't give a damn.  However, I just wanna point one thing out.

Eyebeams, you keep coming back to "The Genbukan says" or "The genbukan does" or "I wonder what the genbukan would say about that"

My only comment is "As far as what the Genbukan does _in regards to a discussion on Bujinkan training_, it is irrelevant, since the Bujinkan is NOT the Genbukan."


----------



## Tengu6 (Sep 19, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> Sure. Hayes invented kata. He and his students have made it clear on several occasions that the godai was never strictly hardwired to a given technique in such and such a fashion, or applied exclusively.


 
Sorry, your info is not exactly correct. In Hayes System, Specific Kamae and techniques ARE ties to a specific element in the begining.......and by begining I mean as you first pass through the elements, and this takes at least FOUR YEARS. Then, when you are in "Void" mode, you mix elements. 

So like I said, you will not work with certain kamae for years in some cases.

Markk Bush
www.bujinmag.com


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 19, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> A for a "party line:" There are people you are not allowed to train with and policies you must follow, and a culture of consensus in keeping with organizational tradition. Of *course* it's a party line. Again, there's nothing wrong with it, and I never said there was.But it isn't conducive to certain lines of questioning, either.



No, you seem to be trying to confuse the issue by accusing Bujinkan members of having to subscribe to a certain viewpoint. We will not say what you want us to, so you say that we are under pressure to change our story.

Well, we do have rules on our behavior. We can't be addicted to drugs and a few rules like that. We are quite free to state our opinion and if you read here, you will find that we do.

Now if you do some research, you will find that the system of godai in Japan is just a way of counting. If you ever get that Sammyaku article you will find that it is talking about the earth level, water level, etc of the judan. It is not anything to do with Hayes and how he laid it out. Tengu6 is correct in his description when he said,



> In Hayes System, Specific Kamae and techniques ARE ties to a specific element in the begining.......and by begining I mean as you first pass through the elements, and this takes at least FOUR YEARS. Then, when you are in "Void" mode, you mix elements.



I have run across people who have made it to Japan that still thought this was the case with the Bujinkan. It is not.

BTW- why do you bring up Gary Arthur? I thought your name was Gary because there is another current member here who is named Gary. I never mentioned a last name.


----------



## eyebeams (Sep 20, 2006)

Tengu6 said:


> Sorry, your info is not exactly correct. In Hayes System, Specific Kamae and techniques ARE ties to a specific element in the begining.......and by begining I mean as you first pass through the elements, and this takes at least FOUR YEARS. Then, when you are in "Void" mode, you mix elements.
> 
> So like I said, you will not work with certain kamae for years in some cases.
> 
> ...


 
Which Hayes system? I can think of three offhand, going from Bujinkan with Hayes ideas as part of the base to his own Kasmui-An and then Toshindo.


----------



## eyebeams (Sep 20, 2006)

Kizaru said:


> What's wrong with Shugendo?


 
Nothing. I don't know it's record for removing tapeworms via occult means, though.


----------



## eyebeams (Sep 20, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> I was gonna stay out of this alltogether, because I don't give a damn. However, I just wanna point one thing out.
> 
> Eyebeams, you keep coming back to "The Genbukan says" or "The genbukan does" or "I wonder what the genbukan would say about that"
> 
> My only comment is "As far as what the Genbukan does _in regards to a discussion on Bujinkan training_, it is irrelevant, since the Bujinkan is NOT the Genbukan."


 
It's entirely relevant. The martial poem used in Genbukan sessions mentions the study of the five elements of nature and other references have popped up. These are most definitely not reminders to count to five. If The Genbukan and Bujinkan have their origins in Takamatsu's arts, where the hell did it come from?


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 20, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> The martial poem used in Genbukan sessions mentions the study of the five elements of nature and other references have popped up.



A poem...... with something you want to think has relevance to the discussion.......

Does the term "grasping at straws" ring a bell with you?

If you had come onto this thread with an open mind instead of throwing insults you might have learned something. Instead, you started off by saying that merely talking about things like this endangers our status in the Bujinkan.

If you had done some research you might have found that we are telling you what we are because it is the truth and _not_ because we are reverse racists in an orginization that does not brook dissent with official stories. There are no official stories about the godai. Just the truth.

If you had just admitted that you were wrong and had not done the research you would have gotten a better reception. Instead you first tried to say there was something in an issue of Sanmyaku that backed what you wanted to be true without even reading it. And Sanmyaku is the official newsletter of Hatsumi. So it is really strange that you say that Hatsumi is trying to rewrite history after trying to make your case by means of referencing his newsletter- which you had not read.

If you want advice to help overcome your lack of knowledge in the subject matter, I am still willing to help you by reccomending some works. You can start with Japan- A Short Cultural History by Varley. But if you merely do not wish to admit that you are wrong and the others here who have far more knowledge and experience in the Bujinkan are telling the truth then I don't see how this discussion can reach a pleasent end.


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 20, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> It's entirely relevant. The martial poem used in Genbukan sessions mentions the study of the five elements of nature and other references have popped up. These are most definitely not reminders to count to five. If The Genbukan and Bujinkan have their origins in Takamatsu's arts, where the hell did it come from?




Hmm.  Lessee... maybe... Another source they were added from?

Dood, that argument is like saying Waffles and Pancakes both come from the same box of pancake mix on the shelf, so both must have Oil in them.

Heaven forbid one gets oil added to it when its no longer pancakes.


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 20, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> Dood, that argument is like saying Waffles and Pancakes both come from the same box of pancake mix on the shelf, so both must have Oil in them.



More like we all worship the Norse Gods because we use the days of the week.

Hey, the days of the week we use in English originally came from the days held sacred by the Norse gods. Thursday was Thor's day, Wodin's day came before that, Freya, Tyr....you can look it up yourself.

By the time what we know as the English language reached a recognizable state, the origins of these terms had been mainly lost and the Christian church even at it's most zealous does not seem to have tried to stamp out the use of the term "Thursday" for another without reference to the Norse religion. Because as far as everyone was concerned, there was no signifigence to them other than being the days of the week.

It is much the same way with the Godai. In ancient buddhism there is some signifigence to them. But for the Bujinkan and the sanshin, etc, they are just counting systems. Nothing more.

I have not seen no heard the poem eyebeams refers to and can't be sure it even is what he says it is. But maybe Tanemura with his research into ancient religions that he does pulled out something on them from a long time ago. But that would be like me doing some research into the Norse gods for a book and my English students thinking that I was trying to sneak in some old-time religion by making them learn the word "Thursday."

This is a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. If only people would bother to try to learn the whole picture before they tried making their case on the internet.


----------



## eyebeams (Sep 20, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> Hmm.  Lessee... maybe... Another source they were added from?
> 
> Dood, that argument is like saying Waffles and Pancakes both come from the same box of pancake mix on the shelf, so both must have Oil in them.
> 
> Heaven forbid one gets oil added to it when its no longer pancakes.



Which source would that be? They're supposed to have nothing to do with Ninpo, remember?


----------



## eyebeams (Sep 20, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> More like we all worship the Norse Gods because we use the days of the week.
> 
> Hey, the days of the week we use in English originally came from the days held sacred by the Norse gods. Thursday was Thor's day, Wodin's day came before that, Freya, Tyr....you can look it up yourself.



That makes perfect sense, when it's the remnant of customs that were suppressed for fairly naked political reasons.

I find it interesting that former Bujinkan mmembers have recently taken the time to contact me with recollections about the godai.



> This is a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. If only people would bother to try to learn the whole picture before they tried making their case on the internet.



I think it's certainly a case where an attempt by one group to assert control over its history does not guarantee accuracy.


----------



## eyebeams (Sep 20, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> If you had come onto this thread with an open mind instead of throwing insults you might have learned something. Instead, you started off by saying that merely talking about things like this endangers our status in the Bujinkan.



The Bujinkan has its reasons for doing its thing. I have repeatedly said that this is the Bujinkan's business, but it isn't necessarily satisfying for individuals.

It is clear that you are uncomfortable with some things about Hatsumi and the Bujinkan, because you interpreted simple descriptions of them as belittling insults. Your discomfort with yamabushi magic and the spirits of dead samurai being a part of recent Bujinkan stories is really not my problem, and you appear to have more of a problem with it than I do.



> If you had done some research you might have found that we are telling you what we are because it is the truth and _not_ because we are reverse racists in an orginization that does not brook dissent with official stories. There are no official stories about the godai. Just the truth.



Don, it is obvious that you feel it is your duty to manage the Bujinkan's image. You've made it clear in past confrontations with others. You've made it clear when you expressed anger that the makers of Shinobi Winds did not limit themselves to carefully managed interactions between Hatsumi and interviewers. This is also normal and even commendable. It is just not compatible with everyone's aims and objectives.



> If you had just admitted that you were wrong and had not done the research you would have gotten a better reception. Instead you first tried to say there was something in an issue of Sanmyaku that backed what you wanted to be true without even reading it. And Sanmyaku is the official newsletter of Hatsumi. So it is really strange that you say that Hatsumi is trying to rewrite history after trying to make your case by means of referencing his newsletter- which you had not read.



I merely asked a question about the issue. It does not compose the entirely of this discussion. Unfortunately, at this point I am disinclined to take your word for it.



> If you want advice to help overcome your lack of knowledge in the subject matter, I am still willing to help you by reccomending some works. You can start with Japan- A Short Cultural History by Varley. But if you merely do not wish to admit that you are wrong and the others here who have far more knowledge and experience in the Bujinkan are telling the truth then I don't see how this discussion can reach a pleasent end.



This discussion is already pretty unpleasant, but no less illuminating.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 20, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> It is clear that you are uncomfortable with some things about Hatsumi and the Bujinkan, because you interpreted simple descriptions of them as belittling insults. Your discomfort with yamabushi magic and the spirits of dead samurai being a part of recent Bujinkan stories is really not my problem, and you appear to have more of a problem with it than I do.


 
I said, Hatsumi once "allowed" an American to become the next Soke. Hint hint.

And guess what? My current teacher has claimed to be a reincarnation of Takamatsu.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 20, 2006)

Really, you need to understand that your lack of knowledge and trying to pass off inaccuracies is what is getting people to respond to you.  If you cannot read between the lines basically what Don, Techno, and everybody else is saying is that you do not know what you are talking about.  

Don is just trying to refute and show you where your _*inaccuracies*_ are that is all. 

If you do some serious research and actually train in this art then maybe we would be willing to listen to what you are saying.  However, you seem bent on portraying something as it simply is not nor ever was.  Good luck in your training and hopefully if you are really interested in the Bujinkan you will find a qualified Sensei to train under.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 20, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> Which source would that be? They're supposed to have nothing to do with Ninpo, remember?



Well, lets see... since I am not a Genbukan student I cant answer that for you, perhaps you should ask the Genbukan where it came from.  

They could have pulled the references from religious texts, a poem (as you suggested) or you could be making the whole thing up, since you seem totaly clueless as to the facts and refuse to listen to them.  For all I know, since you have no real knowlage of the Bujinkan, you could have none of the Genbukan either, and just pulled that reference out of your *** to play like you are an authority figure.


----------



## eyebeams (Sep 20, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> Well, lets see... since I am not a Genbukan student I cant answer that for you, perhaps you should ask the Genbukan where it came from.



That's the plan. 



> They could have pulled the references from religious texts, a poem (as you suggested) or you could be making the whole thing up, since you seem totaly clueless as to the facts and refuse to listen to them. For all I know, since you have no real knowlage of the Bujinkan, you could have none of the Genbukan either, and just pulled that reference out of your *** to play like you are an authority figure.



http://www.genbukan.org/Amatsu_Tatara_Martial_Art_and_/Ninja_Seishin/ninja_seishin.html

This is interesting:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/boyden.wilson/amatsu_background.htm


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## Cryozombie (Sep 20, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> That's the plan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So... you are taking a poem which mentions 5 elements from a non bujinkan site, and a Healing site which references "Godai" but not the elements in relation to Godai... and trying to justify that the godai is the 5 elements IN THE BUJINKAN.

Oh, I see how that works... Hey look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38864&page=3

Look at that! Two sites on the internet, one referencing Hitler, and One referencing Eyebeams.

THEREFORE, EYEBEAMS IS HITLER!

Ahem.  Try again, pal.


----------



## eyebeams (Sep 20, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> So... you are taking a poem which mentions 5 elements from a non bujinkan site, and a Healing site which references "Godai" but not the elements in relation to Godai... and trying to justify that the godai is the 5 elements IN THE BUJINKAN.



I merely find its use interesting in the context of a healing system headed by Hatsumi. Whos' reading between the lines now?


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 20, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> I merely find its use interesting in the context of a healing system headed by Hatsumi. Whos' reading between the lines now?



Your posts contain more misdirection than an Episode of Criss Angel.


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## Don Roley (Sep 21, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> That makes perfect sense, when it's the remnant of customs that were suppressed for fairly naked political reasons.



Oh for Cuthulu's sake! You don't still believe in that whole ninja- as- oppressed- minority crud, do you?

Do some research, find out the truth and stop trying to be right. Maybe then you will learn something.


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## eyebeams (Sep 21, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Oh for Cuthulu's sake! You don't still believe in that whole ninja- as- oppressed- minority crud, do you?
> 
> Do some research, find out the truth and stop trying to be right. Maybe then you will learn something.



I'm not talking about anything in the distant past.


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## Kreth (Sep 21, 2006)

*flips through Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki*
Hrm, no Godai here... next question.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 21, 2006)

Once again Kreth that is a great point!  Eyebeams why not try moving onto some other discussion.  The people in the know constantly are trying to tell you what is reality concerning the Bujinkan.  Since we have explained to you how it is, why not move on to another subject in an area you are familiar with.


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## Don Roley (Sep 21, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> I'm not talking about anything in the distant past.



Oh, so your comment about something being supressed for political reasons was a slap at Hatsumi.

Tell you what, go ask Major Manaka about this. He was there in the early days of training but has left the Bujinkan. So he would be able to tell you what I am and you can't accuse him of lying out of loyalty to Hatsumi to try to prove yourself correct.


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## KageMusha (Sep 21, 2006)

Why did I even ask about the Godai?  Oh yeah, I know why......


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## eyebeams (Sep 22, 2006)

Kreth said:


> *flips through Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki*
> Hrm, no Godai here... next question.



So now the Tenchijin is the tradition instead of the component ryuha?


----------



## eyebeams (Sep 22, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Oh, so your comment about something being supressed for political reasons was a slap at Hatsumi.



You should know nemawashi is more involved than that and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the person running the show.



> Tell you what, go ask Major Manaka about this. He was there in the early days of training but has left the Bujinkan. So he would be able to tell you what I am and you can't accuse him of lying out of loyalty to Hatsumi to try to prove yourself correct.



Why can't I ask Shoto Tanemura?


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## Don Roley (Sep 22, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> So now the Tenchijin is the tradition instead of the component ryuha?



No, I don't think you understand what it is.

It was a curriculum put together in the early days of the Bujinkan to serve as a platform as to what to teach. 

Again, it was put together a good long time ago so if the Godai as a way of doing things in the Bujinkan is not in it, you can't say that it was there and later dropped by Hatsumi as part of some conspiracy.


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 22, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> You should know nemawashi is more involved than that and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the person running the show.



You are sounding more and more like those kooky conspiracy theorists with every post.

And all because you don't want to admit you were wrong.

How sad.

But if you start to listen instead of insult and posture, I am sure many of us will still be willing to help you out of your ignorance.


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## eyebeams (Sep 22, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> No, I don't think you understand what it is.
> 
> It was a curriculum put together in the early days of the Bujinkan to serve as a platform as to what to teach.
> 
> Again, it was put together a good long time ago so if the Godai as a way of doing things in the Bujinkan is not in it, you can't say that it was there and later dropped by Hatsumi as part of some conspiracy.



It depends on what you mean by "godai." I have never argued that Hayes' particular godai existed before Hayes.

But whaddaya think of this?

_Much of what Soke was saying drew from Buddhism, which none of the translators (including myself) knew anything about. Of note was the mention of the "Rokudai." In addition to the conventionally known "Godai" (Chi, Ka, Sui, Fu, Ku) there is a sixth (Shiki), which refers to "Consciousness." Soke said that Musashi's focus only on the five rings fell short of the truth. Shiki is an important aspect of the Buddhist tradition and played a frequent role in Soke's discussions throughout my time there.
_


----------



## Kizaru (Sep 22, 2006)

KageMusha said:


> I am still new to the Bujinkan with just under a year of training, but I am very curious of how other dojos present and train the Godai...


 
Godai (&#20116;&#22823;&#65289; : "Five Greats". A belief system from Tendai sect Buddhism using five elements as a fundamental structure to describe relationships between the physical reality and "emotional" reality. (Tendai sect Buddhism is an esoteric form of Buddhism found in Japan).

Gogyo (&#20116;&#34892: "Five Lines", "Five Ways" et al. Originally a system of describing the physical world developed by Chinese Taoists. Later imported to Japan through Feng Shui and adapted as an ordering or numbering system. 

Gogyo no Kata (&#20116;&#34892;&#20043;&#22411: In the Bujinkan, the Gogyo no kata was brought into the Tenchijin ryaku no Maki from Gyokko ryu by Hatsumi sensei. Basicly, its just five fundamental kata to teach smooth movement, proper striking, etc. There is no relation to an "elemental feeling" for each drill.

Godai no kata: As far as I know, the Godai kata were developed by Stephen Hayes, and are taught within his Toshindo system. The physical movements came from kata Stephen Hayes learned from Hatsumi sensei.

The movements of the Gogyo no Kata and the Godai are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. The purpose behind the motions themselves are different as well. In the past year I've had quite a few people ask me what the difference between the Gogyo no Kata and the Godai are; I think because the names sound so similar, and the fact that thet both use "Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space" (even though they are used in different ways)there has been some confusion.


----------



## Kizaru (Sep 22, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> But whaddaya think of this?
> 
> _Much of what Soke was saying drew from Buddhism, which none of the translators (including myself) knew anything about. Of note was the mention of the "Rokudai." In addition to the conventionally known "Godai" (Chi, Ka, Sui, Fu, Ku) there is a sixth (Shiki), which refers to "Consciousness." _


 
Godai is a concept from Tendai sect Buddhism.

Rokkudai is a concept from Shingon sect Buddhism.

Japanese martial arts were influenced by the religious influences around them the same way that martial arts in other cultures were influenced by the religions around them. The quote you are refering to was drawing on Buddhist concepts, not necessarily concepts that are organic to the Bujinkan. As far as I know, there is no "godai" concept organic to the ryu ha in the Bujinkan.

If you are interested in learning more about Stephen Hayes' "Godai no kata", I suggest you contact someone in his Toshindo organization.

If you are interested in learning more about the "Godai" concepts in Buddhism, I suggest you contact a Tendai sect priest.

If you are interested in getting some soul, I suggest you look here:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/2006/06/shoesouls.html


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## eyebeams (Sep 22, 2006)

Kizaru said:


> Godai is a concept from Tendai sect Buddhism.
> 
> Rokkudai is a concept from Shingon sect Buddhism.



Actually, they aren't divided precisely among sects. There are fourfold, fivefold and sixfold models used depending on the context, sometimes expressed in nested series. The fivefold model is common as it mirrors the scheme of worldly buddhas emanating from Dainichi.



> Japanese martial arts were influenced by the religious influences around them the same way that martial arts in other cultures were influenced by the religions around them. The quote you are refering to was drawing on Buddhist concepts, not necessarily concepts that are organic to the Bujinkan. As far as I know, there is no "godai" concept organic to the ryu ha in the Bujinkan.



It was, I believe, in relationship to Juppo Sessho.


----------



## Kreth (Sep 22, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> It was, I believe, in relationship to Juppo Sessho.


So now we've gone from Hayes' Shoshinsha Godai no kata being part of the Bujinkan (disproven) to fishing for any references to godai in Bujinkan material? :idunno:


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 22, 2006)

Oh my, this thread is going nowhere! :idunno:




 :ninja:


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 22, 2006)

KageMusha said:


> Why did I even ask about the Godai? Oh yeah, I know why......


 
Because you, sir, are a troublemaker.  ROFLMFAO


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 22, 2006)

No, Eyebeams, why dont you stop embarrasing yourself...

ROFL.  Pathetic, man.  Just freakin pathetic.  

Was I even close?  14 about right?


----------



## Kizaru (Sep 22, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> ....The fivefold model is common as it mirrors the scheme of worldly buddhas emanating from Dainichi..


Okay, so you know a little something about Buddhism, I suppose my simplified explanation was unneccesary.



eyebeams said:


> It was, I believe, in relationship to Juppo Sessho.


And as I am sure you already know, the concept "Juppo Sessho" is originally from Japanese Buddhism. If it's Buddhism you're interested in, again, I urge you to find someone teaching Buddhism, as that's a more direct vehicle to what you're looking for.

&#21512;&#25484;
Gassho.


----------



## Fu_Bag (Sep 22, 2006)

I can't believe that you guys didn't know the long since abandoned secrets of the Super Secret Ninja Godai Training Method can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaolin_Showdown


" The use of the artifacts is shown to be usually combined with the use of the martial arts, which are portrayed as evoking internal, mystical powers linked to the classical elements that work synergistically with the Shen Gong Wu. The show makes frequent use of Chinese culture and archetypes despite the international setting  the Xiaolin Temple is in China and the origins of most of the Shen Gong Wu all seem to be Chinese. However, the elements they use are not Chinese. Chinese Mythology refers to the 5 elements as earth, water, metal, wood, and fire. They use the Greek elements of fire, earth, water, and wind. "

Glad to be of service  

Fu Bag


----------



## Fu_Bag (Sep 22, 2006)

Nimravus said:


> And guess what? My current teacher has claimed to be a reincarnation of Takamatsu.


 

Wow.  How does he know?  How would someone know that they were the reincarnation of Takamatsu-sensei?  Really thick fingernails?  At least you must be getting top-knotch training!!!  

I'm just playing.  I'm not trying to insult anyone here.  That just seems a little unusual is all....


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 23, 2006)

Kreth said:


> So now we've gone from Hayes' Shoshinsha Godai no kata being part of the Bujinkan (disproven) to fishing for any references to godai in Bujinkan material? :idunno:



Anyone besides me getting a case of deja vu and the names Bruce Calkins and Blooming Lotus keep popping up? 

Some people can use the internet to find out new things. Others seem to only use it to find references that might relate in some way with what they want things to be. Being _right_ seems to be more important than being correct.


----------



## eyebeams (Sep 23, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> No, Eyebeams, why dont you stop embarrasing yourself...
> 
> ROFL.  Pathetic, man.  Just freakin pathetic.
> 
> Was I even close?  14 about right?



Ad hominems do not an argument make.


----------



## eyebeams (Sep 23, 2006)

Kreth said:


> So now we've gone from Hayes' Shoshinsha Godai no kata being part of the Bujinkan (disproven) to fishing for any references to godai in Bujinkan material? :idunno:



Well no, we didn't. If you review my posts, you'll see that I've repeatedly stated that I believe Hayes' godai is his own invention. So triumphantly going, "See, Hayes' godai isn't there!" is missing the point -- repeatedly. I suppose it's more comfortable to attack a stawman, but it's not honest engagement.

But it also appears that the assertion that the elements were only used for counting is also untrue.

I am indeed fishing for references to the godai (and related schema) in Bujinkan material. That's kind of the point.


----------



## eyebeams (Sep 23, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Anyone besides me getting a case of deja vu and the names Bruce Calkins and Blooming Lotus keep popping up?



Bruce Calkins is a mediocre martial artist who got too big for his britches, but in the past  I've said that he certainly illustrates the process behind martial arts mythology.  Calkins' case also illustrates the advantages of current technology in being able to put that mythology in its place, and it makes me wonder what many arts would be like if they'd been founded after the rise of the internet.

This is actually a pretty big deal in traditional martial arts narratives. One example would be the reevaluation of Morihei Ueshiba in light of video from his later life being available to a mass audience. Aikido mythology held that he was still an able fighter into old age, but the video shows students complying with techniques out of obvious respect for Osensei.

This has caused Aikidoka to reframe this stage of his life by suggesting that culivating "ki" in Aikido is something with a strong social dimension. Similarly, it's become easier to get multiple perspectives on a topic.

There's an argument -- a legitimate one -- that this free flow of information and opinion is contrary to the traditional structures of budo. You, Don, certainly hold this opinion. In the past you've expressed anger when people speak to Hatsumi outside of customary channels (Shinobi Winds) and have opposed detailing specific technical matters.

The problem is that this view -- your view -- of budo does not compel others to agree. Your sense of moral superiority is misplaced outside of the context of your own organization.



> Some people can use the internet to find out new things. Others seem to only use it to find references that might relate in some way with what they want things to be. Being _right_ seems to be more important than being correct.



The only conclusion I've reached is that Buddhist elemental schemes have been referred to in the past as something more than a mere counting system (though those references are not equivalent to Hayes' method).


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## eyebeams (Sep 23, 2006)

Ninja Seishin Towa,
  Shin Shin Shiki O Shinobu,
  Ninniku Seishin O Konpon To Suru.​ Chijoku O Shinonde Urami O Hojisaru,
  Nintai Seishin O Yashinau Kotoni Hajimaru Mono De Aru.​ Nin Towa,
  Kokoro No Yueni Yaiba O Oite,
  Yaiba De Hito O Kizutsuketari Suruyona Mono Dewa Naku,
  Kajo Waraku,
  Hana No Gotoki Joai O Motte,
  Heiwa O Tanoshimu Mono De Aru.​ Yueni,
  Tai O Motte Shizen Ni Aite No Ken O Sake.
  Sugata O Kesu,
  Kyojitsu Tenkan No Myo O E,
  Iccho Kuni No Tame Toka,
  Gi No Tame Ni,
  Chi, Sui, Ka, Fu, Ku,
  No Dai Shizen O Riyoshite.
  Aite O Seisuru Koto Ga,​ Ninja No Konpon Gensoku De Aru.​ ​ Original by Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei (Amatsu Tatara Ryumon no Maki).​ ​ *TRANSLATION :*​ ​ "The essence of 'Ninniku Seishin' is the spirit of the Ninja who has the power to use patience together with the body, mind and subconscious. It is this power that one must develop by training hard. The result will lead to the ability to pocket any insult and later throw it away together with all traces of resentment (Nintai Seishin). The true meaning of 'Nin' is having a heart as peaceful, joyful and lovely as that of a flower (Kajo Waraku). One should never place the blade before the heart. It is also very important to acquire a good knowledge of diversionary tactics using both the heart and body, so that in emergencies one will be able to disappear. This is known as 'Kyojitsu Tenkan', and is for defeating evil with the powers of Earth, Water, Fire, Wind and Air for Justice, in the defense of oneself, or one's country."​


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## Dale Seago (Sep 23, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> This is actually a pretty big deal in traditional martial arts narratives. One example would be the reevaluation of Morihei Ueshiba in light of video from his later life being available to a mass audience. Aikido mythology held that he was still an able fighter into old age, but the video shows students complying with techniques out of obvious respect for Osensei.



Do you think these are, necessarily, mutually exclusive?


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## eyebeams (Sep 23, 2006)

Dale Seago said:


> Do you think these are, necessarily, mutually exclusive?



That kind of ability does not necessarily translate into every context folded under martial arts or self-protection, but they can cross over to a degree.


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## Don Roley (Sep 23, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> But it also appears that the assertion that the elements were only used for counting is also untrue.



No, not if you are talking about the Bujinkan and the traditions that make it up.

As has been stated, the godai was found in Buddhism from a long time past. Its use lost the aspects of religion and bacame merely a means of counting. Just like the days to honor the Norse gods became just a way of telling what day it was in Christian Europe.

So even though there is some use of the Godai _outside_ the traditions of the Bujinkan does not mean that there is any relation to the way of counting in the Bujinkan despite how much that there is _newashi_ (snicker, snort... do you even know what you are saying) going on that you try to hint at.


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## Don Roley (Sep 23, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> There's an argument -- a legitimate one -- that this free flow of information and opinion is contrary to the traditional structures of budo. You, Don, certainly hold this opinion. In the past you've expressed anger when people speak to Hatsumi outside of customary channels (Shinobi Winds) and have opposed detailing specific technical matters.



No, you are not correct about the above at all.

Go ahead and take a look at what I actually wrote about the Shinobi winds documentary. I made no mention of "customary channels" and my problems with the documentary were in the lack of accuracy as well as the way the guy acted towards Hatsumi.

If you want to say that there is some sort of conspiracy to conceal the truth and that you are in fact correct, you failed. Big time. There is nothing stopping me from stating my opinion and giving facts. You can ask several people in both the Bujinkan and the staff of martialtalk- _nothing_ stops me from saying what I think or know.


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## eyebeams (Sep 23, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> No, not if you are talking about the Bujinkan and the traditions that make it up.



So Takamatsu was exhorting students to count to five and Ben Cole was talking about Hatsumi lecturing about how you might also count to six, eh?


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## eyebeams (Sep 23, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> No, you are not correct about the above at all.
> 
> Go ahead and take a look at what I actually wrote about the Shinobi winds documentary. I made no mention of "customary channels" and my problems with the documentary were in the lack of accuracy as well as the way the guy acted towards Hatsumi.



Amazingly, Don, it is normal to go up to a guy with a camera and ask questions when you're filming a documentary, no matter how important you believe the guy to be.


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## Jonathan Randall (Sep 23, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> Amazingly, Don, it is normal to go up to a guy with a camera and ask questions when you're filming a documentary, no matter how important you believe the guy to be.



Yes, that is true, but unless you wish it to be an adversarial and counterproductive relationship, you go through proper channels and exercies appropriate courtesy and respect.


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## eyebeams (Sep 23, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:


> Yes, that is true, but unless you wish it to be an adversarial and counterproductive relationship, you go through proper channels and exercies appropriate courtesy and respect.



Not necessarily. Sometimes it's preferential to get a raw response instead of a mediated one.


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## Kizaru (Sep 23, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> But it also appears that the assertion that the elements were only used for counting is also untrue.


The "elements" are used for counting in the Bujinkan. If you trained in the Bujinkan, live or have lived in Japan and spoke fluent Japanese like some on this board do, that fact would be common sense. 




eyebeams said:


> So Takamatsu was exhorting students to count to five and Ben Cole was talking about Hatsumi lecturing about how you might also count to six,


I believe you are taking Ben Cole's quote out of context, and in so doing, are completely missing the point of the exchange in question.




eyebeams said:


> I am indeed fishing for references to the godai (and related schema) in Bujinkan material...


 
Why are you fishing for godai references in the Bujinkan? I would suggest that you find a more constructive way to spend your time...I can see that my last two posts here were a complete waste of mine...


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## Kizaru (Sep 23, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> Original by Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei (Amatsu Tatara


 
Oh really?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 23, 2006)

Kizaru said:


> ...I can see that my last two posts here were a complete waste of mine...


 
Kizaru, 

I appreciated your post and I know that the other Budo Taijutsu practitioners did as well.  As for eyebeams, well he is working on his own little agenda.


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## eyebeams (Sep 23, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Kizaru,
> 
> I appreciated your post and I know that the other Budo Taijutsu practitioners did as well. As for eyebeams, well he is working on his own little agenda.



What's this agenda exactly?


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## Cryozombie (Sep 23, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> What's this agenda exactly?



My guess would be to be a Dickhead so you can get a giggle out of the attention you are recieving.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 23, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> What's this agenda exactly?


 
I think it is pretty obvious.  You have been ranting against the Bujinkan on E-budo, Kutaki no Mura and here.  You are simply on an agenda!


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## Fu_Bag (Sep 23, 2006)

I'm honestly curious about why some people want for there to be a literal translation of Xiaolin Showdown type stuff into the Bujinkan curriculum? Is the greater purpose of the Bujinkan to serve peace and justice or to compete for Shen Gong Wu? This isn't a dig at anyone. I just don't understand why a non-issue is such a huge deal.

The point has been made by people who live in Japan and train with Hatsumi-sensei that it's a counting method. Isn't it possible that, even with what was posted in that poem, that it's still just a counting method that refers to a cyclical approach to dealing with situations? People have had such strategies for a very long time, haven't they?

Being able to utilize natural elements to achieve your goals doesn't necessarily mean that people are supposed to go around saying "I'm feeling really Windy today". Say that on a crowded elevator and see where it gets you. Sorry if I missed it but what has Hatsumi-sensei's official answer pertaining to this mess been?

If it's "The Godai is a method of counting", then why say that Takamatsu-sensei was really talking about some kind of psychological or spiritual stuff? I just don't see that being verified by those who speak Japanese fluently, live in Japan, train with Hatsumi-sensei, and have, apparently, spent many hours studying such things.

How would claiming this Xiaolin Showdown stuff is real, and present in the Bujinkan, harm the Bujinkan? Sorry if I'm missing something here. I'm just having a hard time figuring out why someone would use it as a rallying cry against the Bujinkan.


Fu Bag


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## bydand (Sep 23, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> My guess would be to be a Dickhead so you can get a giggle out of the attention you are recieving.



So eloquent, I love it!  I agree also 100% by the way.


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## KageMusha (Sep 23, 2006)

If I new it would cause this much trouble, I would have kept my mouth shut.


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## Fu_Bag (Sep 23, 2006)

KageMusha said:


> If I new it would cause this much trouble, I would have kept my mouth shut.


 
LOL!!!  Well, KageMusha, welcome to the Ninjutsu section!  You may notice that there are some subjects that people post on to intentionally stir up trouble.  I would definitely use the "Search" function in the upper right corner of the forum toolbar to avoid a repeat of this in the future.  Don't worry about it, though.  Hindsight is always 20/20.  

Fu Bag


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## Cryozombie (Sep 23, 2006)

KageMusha said:


> If I new it would cause this much trouble, I would have kept my mouth shut.



LOL!

Yeah, what were you thinking?


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## KageMusha (Sep 23, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> LOL!
> 
> Yeah, what were you thinking?




I am not sure.  But me and you are going to have some words tomorrow.:whip:


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## Cryozombie (Sep 23, 2006)

KageMusha said:


> I am not sure.  But me and you are going to have some words tomorrow.:whip:



Why did your wife have my kid?


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## KageMusha (Sep 23, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> Why did your wife have my kid?



She had my kid.  But you will have my foot stuck up your ***.


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## eyebeams (Sep 23, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think it is pretty obvious. You have been ranting against the Bujinkan on E-budo, Kutaki no Mura and here. You are simply on an agenda!



That's odd. I specifically said that one article that could be construed as damaging to Hatsumi (claiming he tried to join a koryu org) shouldn't be taken that way. And I've never posted to kutaki.


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## eyebeams (Sep 23, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> My guess would be to be a Dickhead so you can get a giggle out of the attention you are recieving.



Again with the ad hominems, I see.


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## eyebeams (Sep 23, 2006)

Kizaru said:


> The "elements" are used for counting in the Bujinkan. If you trained in the Bujinkan, live or have lived in Japan and spoke fluent Japanese like some on this board do, that fact would be common sense.


 
 Funny thing: Not everyone who's trained with the Bujinkan thinks so. One individual shared his recollection of its use entire outside of Hayes. Another told me about the relationship between two different elemental schemes. I don't take them entirely at their word.



> I believe you are taking Ben Cole's quote out of context, and in so doing, are completely missing the point of the exchange in question.


 
Explain how.



> Why are you fishing for godai references in the Bujinkan? I would suggest that you find a more constructive way to spend your time...I can see that my last two posts here were a complete waste of mine...



It's for my personal edification.


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## Don Roley (Sep 24, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> Funny thing: Not everyone who's trained with the Bujinkan thinks so. One individual shared his recollection of its use entire outside of Hayes. Another told me about the relationship between two different elemental schemes.



Not everyone in the Bujinkan lets their lack on knowledge about the subject matter get in the way of them pontificating as if they were an expert.

If they are not people who were around for a long, long time and possibly read some books by Hayes, I really don't put too much importance on what they say, especially since you won't give their names. 

And speaking of people that talk like experts, could you tell us what you think the word _newashi_ means. :lfao:


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## Kizaru (Sep 24, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> Funny thing: Not everyone who's trained with the Bujinkan thinks so...I don't take them entirely at their word.


If you don't take them at their word, why bother telling us?



eyebeams said:


> Explain how.


Prove you're worth the time for an explanation.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 24, 2006)

Malcolm,

I am sorry if I mixed you up with someone else on Kutaki who was acting the same way you are on this thread.  

When Kizaru just asked you to prove *your worth *for an explanation of anything that was a pretty poignant question!  At this point I am inclined to think that you are not really worth wasting time explaining how we do things in Budo Taijutsu.  You seem to be fishing for something to help you justify a wrongfully preconceived notion  and to find something to needle the Bujinkan.  People who I respect and who are very knowledgeable on the subject have told you what you needed to know and yet you continue on.  You are choosing to ignore the truth.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 24, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> Again with the ad hominems, I see.



Seems to be all your pathetically tiny mind can comprehend.


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## eyebeams (Sep 24, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> Seems to be all your pathetically tiny mind can comprehend.


 
It seems more likely that your ability to support your position with a real argument has just run out of steam. That's usually the cause of personal attacks.


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## eyebeams (Sep 24, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Not everyone in the Bujinkan lets their lack on knowledge about the subject matter get in the way of them pontificating as if they were an expert.
> 
> If they are not people who were around for a long, long time and possibly read some books by Hayes, I really don't put too much importance on what they say, especially since you won't give their names.


 
Fortunately, the importance you place upon things is not a guiding principle for anyone else. As some of these folks are still Bujinkan members, I'd rather not give their names. 



> And speaking of people that talk like experts, could you tell us what you think the word _newashi_ means. :lfao:


 
That would depend on the spelling, Don, though one of those definitions is extremely amusing in light of this discussion.


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## eyebeams (Sep 24, 2006)

Kizaru said:


> If you don't take them at their word, why bother telling us?


 
Because I'm not taking *anyone* entirely at their word.



> Prove you're worth the time for an explanation.


 
What are you afraid of?


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## eyebeams (Sep 24, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Malcolm,
> 
> I am sorry if I mixed you up with someone else on Kutaki who was acting the same way you are on this thread.
> 
> When Kizaru just asked you to prove *your worth *for an explanation of anything that was a pretty poignant question!


 
Not especially. Questions like that are contrary to the idea of free exchange -- and that's an important principle in such things.

As I've said repeatedly, the free exchange between intellectuals is not one of the traditional values of budo. This means that the ways in which budo creates stories about itself are not compatible with actually learning the truth of those stories.



> At this point I am inclined to think that you are not really worth wasting time explaining how we do things in Budo Taijutsu. You seem to be fishing for something to help you justify a wrongfully preconceived notion and to find something to needle the Bujinkan. People who I respect and who are very knowledgeable on the subject have told you what you needed to know and yet you continue on. You are choosing to ignore the truth.


 
It is interesting that you've formed opinions about everything from my agenda to who I "really am" (though mistakenly) because of what other people have told you.

You're better off asking the same questions (this includes asking them of the kind of people Don Roley "doesn't place importance on," -- though he sure as hell dogs those people wherever they arise -- and asking *yourself* about the biases in your methods) as I am and coming to your own conclusions. Doing what you're told is fine in a training hierarchy, but it's not for this.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 24, 2006)

Eyebeams, Malcom or however you really are.  You have been proven to *know very little* about budo taijutsu on this thread.  You are fishing for whatever it is _*I do not know nor do I care*_.  I formed my opinions on you based on your own writings.  Needless to say I am done responding to you it is simply just not worth it. (my time is more valuable than that)  You are not here in the pursuit of knowledge or intellectual exchange. (that much is evident)  Enjoy whatever little game you are playing.


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## eyebeams (Sep 24, 2006)

Just a general comment:

Reviewing this thread, it seems that on the balance, I have been the one providing external references to what I am talking about. I have also repeatedly expressed a feeling of respect and understanding for the Bujinkan's traditions -- even its eccentricities.

Here's what the core issues are:

1) The uses of the godai and other schemes in the Bujinkan. This is not Hayes godai; assuming I mean this is a strawman.

2) There are multiple references to such schemes in sources that emanate from Hatsumi himself, right to the Bujinkan. One of these is a counting system. One of them is a system of divisions in Amatsu medicine. One of them is an analogy used to explain the relationship between consciousness and space in juppo sessho. There are others that are more controversial. I am interested in the significance of these references, but it is not controversal that the ones I mentioned actually exist.

3) There are strong implications of such systems within the Takamatsuden in general. This comes from references in the Genbukan and a strong suggestion that Takamatsu himself made such references.

These references and where they fit within the structure of Takamatsu's descendant teachings if the focus of my interest -- not whether or not it's just a system of counting or kata with "feeling." Those are both positions that don't line up with the facts, but aside from those, there's certainly a lot of room for interpretation.

Since there appears to be some confusion, let's list what this is not about. To wit:

1) I don't care about your organizational politics except in situations where they prove a hindrance -- and they do indeed. It's your choice to stand by your position and have your loyalties, but that choice does not compel anyone else.

2) I don't really care who you believe has ultimate authority in such and such a context. These are questions about budo, not budo-style questions. There is no definite appeal to authority for a right answer -- just answers that are analyzed based on completeness or consistency.

3) I'm not a member of your organizations, an organization you don't like or anything like that.


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## eyebeams (Sep 24, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Eyebeams, Malcom or however you really are. You have been proven to *know very little* about budo taijutsu on this thread. You are fishing for whatever it is _*I do not know nor do I care*_. I formed my opinions on you based on your own writings. Needless to say I am done responding to you it is simply just not worth it. (my time is more valuable than that) You are not here in the pursuit of knowledge or intellectual exchange. (that much is evident) Enjoy whatever little game you are playing.


 
You need to decide what your position is. Either you have an opinion because of what you made a decision as an individual or you have one because of what other people tell you. You need to either decide this is utterly unimportant or resolve it within your own mind using an honest intellectual method. You need to either justify your statements or reject them. You need you "set your gut," to use a reference some people may understand.

Your sense of discomfort is your to resolve -- and it's ultimately not my problem. That's the chief barrier here: Many assume that because they follow a certain kind of propriety, others are bound to. Reactions like this do pit the lie to the notion that the Bujinkan is not a "traditional" budo group -- for better or for worse, this is as traditional as it gets.


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## jks9199 (Sep 24, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> Not especially. Questions like that are contrary to the idea of free exchange -- and that's an important principle in such things.
> 
> As I've said repeatedly, the free exchange between intellectuals is not one of the traditional values of budo. This means that the ways in which budo creates stories about itself are not compatible with actually learning the truth of those stories.
> 
> ...


 
At this point -- from an outsider's view -- you seem to be looking to disagree or hunting for arguments and you seem to have decided that anyone who doesn't say what you want them to and doesn't think the same way that you do is part of some sort of conspiracy/plot/scheme to deny the "real knowledge."  You look around for Illumanati, too?



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Eyebeams, Malcom or however you really are. You have been proven to *know very little* about budo taijutsu on this thread. You are fishing for whatever it is _*I do not know nor do I care*_. I formed my opinions on you based on your own writings. Needless to say I am done responding to you it is simply just not worth it. (my time is more valuable than that) You are not here in the pursuit of knowledge or intellectual exchange. (that much is evident) Enjoy whatever little game you are playing.


 
I have to agree; I don't know why the same people that took the time to answer my question with courtesy and politeness are still dealing with Eyebeams.  (Y'know...  for the Christians, a scripture passage just came to mind as I typed his name...)


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## Cryozombie (Sep 24, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> It seems more likely that your ability to support your position with a real argument has just run out of steam. That's usually the cause of personal attacks.



No, I just understand there is no argument.  We all know the facts, you refuse to see them, so now, the only thing left to say is what a moron you are.

My mom always said if you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all, but I figure, what the ****, she's dead, so its not like she can yell at me anymore.

So... yeah.

You = Ignorant of the subject matter.


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## Kizaru (Sep 24, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> It seems more likely that your ability to support your position with a real argument has just run out of steam. That's usually the cause of personal attacks.


Hmm...Intersting point.



			
				Kizaru said:
			
		

> Prove you're worth the time for an explanation.





eyebeams said:


> What are you afraid of?


 
Thank you for answering my question.

Clearly, your response demonstrates your inability to prove there is any merit in continuing to assist you in finding the information you seek. At the same time, your meek attempt at instigation is amusing at best.

In light of _*your*_ having resorted to personal attack, by your own assertion, it would seem that _*your*_ arguement has run out of steam...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





As an aside, "eyebeams", please don't fool yourself into thinking my response proves you're worth my (or anyone else's) time; it's not written for your edification, it's written for the benefit of the others on this board.


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## Kizaru (Sep 24, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> No, I just understand there is no argument. We all know the facts, you refuse to see them, so now, the only thing left to say is what a moron you are.


Excellent point; quite enlightening.



Technopunk said:


> My mom always said if you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all, but I figure, what the ****, she's dead, so its not like she can yell at me anymore.


While I'm sure all here are compassionate towards your mother's condition; I would like to add that your clarity of perspective on this point is summarliy erudite.



Technopunk said:


> You = Ignorant of the subject matter.


The depth of axiomatic truth you have been able to extract from this dialogue is exemplary.


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## Lisa (Sep 24, 2006)

Thread locked pending admin review.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator


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