# hidden tecniques in tsd hyung? was dillmen on to something?



## master dave (Nov 30, 2002)

do you believe that there are hidden movements in tsd hyung? remember the pyung ahn hyung, pinon in okanawan, or heian in japanese are not the creation of hwang kee. these hyung or kata were incorporated in our system as with our black belt forms, bassai, naihanji 1,2,and 3  a ship soo, jindo(chinto) row hi, kong san kun, sei san, wan shu and jion. did the korean masters know the hidden tecniques but omit that part of training to the u.s. service men? i also holding rank in shotokan or karate do practiced these same katas while studing shotokan. my love and life long comitment is to tang soo do, but were we really taught everything? are we actually attacking meridans and pressure points in our hyung? is grappling hidden in tsd hyung?  in the turning portion of jin-do (chin-to) at the end of the hyung is it really breaking the neck of the opponant? is wan shu full of these hidden movements? is what is believed to be a high punch really not a punch but comming straight up with the back of the hand attacking under the chin? pressure points? was wan shu also not known as the killing kata? in the last movement when you pick up your opponant dumping him do you land on opponant taking his life? are the pyung ahn hyungs also full of these hidden movements? please understand im no fanatic! not a dillmen fan either! never read any of his book or seen any of his videos. but is he on to something? if so why werent we taught this? ive been studing tang soo do now going on 35 years,  i would like t har your opinions on the rather contraversal subject. so what do you think? is there more to tang soo do then meets the eye?:asian:


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## Shinzu (Jan 8, 2003)

i think so.  many techniques can be translated many ways by different martial artists.  for example what a white belt sees in a punch is completely different than what a black belt sees in that same punch.  we must seek out and find the hidden meaning in all our techniques.


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## mtabone (Jan 8, 2003)

Of Course!!!!!


Everything has a million applications. as long as one has an imagination, there is limitless stuff to learn. Take a low block. It is also a hammer fist motion to a low part of the body, or knee. a high block is also a attack to the head/neck. a Punch, a deflecting Block, etc etc etc. A never ending cycle of Ideas and techniques. All you need, is to never let the light out of your mind!!!!

Most Real Martial Arts, Especially TSD, have many things in them. One must not just learn TSD, but STUDY it. Big difference. 


TANG SOO!!!
Michael Tabone


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## yilisifu (Jan 8, 2003)

The original Tangsoodo forms are actually Japanese versions of traditional Okinawan kata.

   The Okinawans, having no great love for the Japanese, did not teach them the hidden applications and techniques in the forms.  Thus, when Hwang Kee learned these forms from the Japanese, he did not learn this material.  One has to go back to the Okinawans to learn the real techniques.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 8, 2003)

Yilisifu is correct.
The ghiddenh teachings probably were not passed on to the Koreans since they were not passed on to the Japanese by the Okinawans. 
Some might say they were passed on to the Japanese but after living here for the last 15 years I have yet to see it. Also, most Okinawans would agree with mecccin fact I have heard Okinawans refer to Japanese Karate as gwooden man karateh or gTokyo Karateh.

As for Dillmancc..hHeh isnft onto anything the Okinawans havenft already known for a long time.


Tang SooDo is actually the Korean way to say Karatedo using the China kanji for Kara not the Ku/sky

Example:

è¹


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## Shinzu (Jan 8, 2003)

there are many things to consider. 

for example did you realize that the movements in the phyung ahn cho dan form (from a top view) actually form the kanji that means "phyung ahn".  very interesting.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 20, 2003)

Something I learned from RyuShiKan, and am now learning to fully appreciate in my training, is that originally a student only ever learned a handful of forms...  One or two or three was enough.  

From what I have learned, from my teacher (Yilisifu) and others, the vast collection of forms stems more from the hope of one teacher at one point in time to preserve all the forms he had found/learned, not so much because they were all necessary for study.

Right now I am working on memorizing a new form (Gan Ba Hu, "Chasing Eight Tigers"), practicing Naihanchi Shodan so as not to disappoint RyuShiKan overly much with my pathetic performance when I return to Japan to visit this summer, and reviewing the Yiliquan forms I know in order to apply judicious amounts of WD40...  Forms are lifelong study material anyway, so I have a lot to work on.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## arnisador (Mar 5, 2003)

Since these came from Japan and hence from Okinawa and hence largely from China, they do have "hidden" techniques!

I like the way a math. teacher of mine once described a difficult textbook--it's "dehydrated" so you have to add a lot of water on your own to get anything out of it. Sometimes I think "hidden" (as in intentionally) buried is the wrong adjective--hard to see, yes, but not exactly hidden.


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## Shinzu (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Something I learned from RyuShiKan, and am now learning to fully appreciate in my training, is that originally a student only ever learned a handful of forms...  One or two or three was enough. *




this is true gichen funakoshi was not able to even start to learn the next form until his teacher were satisfied with his current performance.  i think this is the problem with forms nowadays.  students are more interested in quantity rather then quality.

i have seen my old sensei perform the 1st basic form with such grace and power that i know i have a long way to go.


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## yilisifu (Mar 6, 2003)

Knowledge of the true meaning of forms is one reason why so many martial arts practicioners nowadays disdain their practice.  They aren't aware of what the forms really teach.

All fighting arts use them in one way or another; even western boxing.  They may very short, but they use them.  A given boxing coach (once himself a boxer) teaches his students which combinaitons worked well for him.  They practice these combinations (very short forms) over and over...

Asian martial arts, particularly the Chinese and Okinawan, are much older than western boxing and their arts allow for many other types of techniques (kicking, throws, joint techniques), so their forms are naturally longer.

In the distant past, those who created many of these forms wanted to conceal it's real techniques so unworthy people (who might spy on their practice which was often held outdoors) could not learn the real techniques.  They covered them with "camoflouge"; layers of other techniques which hid them from untrained eyes.

This camoflouge still works today.  And many people fail to see the "practicality" of forms and stop training with them.  In doing so, they lose a wealth of knowledge that could have been theirs had they not given up their search.


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## Shinzu (Mar 7, 2003)

agreed.  forms are a very important part of any art and bulid the foundation for greater things to come.


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## okinawagojuryu (Mar 20, 2003)

I do believe there are hidden moves in the forms . The reason why they were never taught is the fact , you have to remember Hwang Kee learned these forms from books . There definately is some tuite applications in the Okinawan versions , as well as throws , grappling techniques , etc. ; There's even some throws in Kicho Hyung IL Bu , you just gotta look for them , but their there . 

David Somers


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## Shinzu (Mar 20, 2003)

good points  ,but can you please elaberate on what you have found to be hidden?


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## okinawagojuryu (Mar 20, 2003)

I dont wanna go into any of the tuite apps , because I dont know if there are any young kids reading this , but will talk about some of the throws , escapes , etc . 

In Kicho hyung IL bu , on the turns you would turn , and down block , these could be throws . Also the down blocks could be defenses against a wrist grab. 
Kicho Hyung Sam Bu - you down block , going down the center line , follwed by 3 side punches . Why are you doing the side punches , you are slipping the punch , like a boxer would slip a jab . 
Pyung Ahn Cho Dan is full of Tuite apps. , but i'll explain some of the basic ones . Going down the front - low block , high open hand block , 3 high blocks - you block the guys kick , then block his punch , the next high block is an arm break , then you would clear the arm out w/ the next 1 , then the last high block would be a punch to the jaw .
Bassai - the opening move & then the middle blocks to the rear : 
middle block the guys punch , and smack them in the ear , disturbing their equal libream , then you would grab them by their hair , collar , ear , or whatever & throw them to the rear , followed up by a downward backfist .
These are just some examples , got more but getting sleepy & long winded .

David


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## Shinzu (Mar 21, 2003)

i agree with your points, but i do not really consider these techniques to be hidden, in my opinion.  these movements could be translated into many different defenses.


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## okinawagojuryu (Mar 21, 2003)

Ok , I'll explain one of the less dangerous 1's .  Just a general 1 ; Ha Dan Soo Do Mahkee - In TSD if u r doin a right Ha Dan Soo Do Mahkee , you would swing your hands up behind your head , w/ u'r palms facing eacother , then come down w/ the low soo do . If your opponent throws a front kick at you , you would trap it by grabbing the calf , and placing the other hand on top of the knee , pull them in , and strike the nerve / pressure point on the inside of the thigh of your opponents opposite leg . I've got alot more , but not gonna get into them here . Too dangerous & too hard to explain in writting . This stuff should be learned from an instructor anyway . 

David


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## Shinzu (Mar 22, 2003)

i see your point   our ha dan soo do mahkee comes from one hand over the opposite ear and the other cocked behind our back. i have done it the way you speak of at my last dojang also.


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## mtabone (Mar 23, 2003)

Our Ha Dan Soo Do Mahk Kee chambers one at the shoulder/head, palm up, and the other hand at the hip, palm down. I have never seen any TSD that chambers with both hands palms together above the head. I have seen some TKD people do this, but then again, that is not Tang Soo Do.


Michael Tabone


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## okinawagojuryu (Mar 23, 2003)

I believe the way you are doing it is the newer way . If you train w/ some of the older masters , that broke off from the USTSDMDKF ( Now USSBDMDKF ) , such as Kim Jae Joon , or Shin Jae Chul , you will see this is the way they teach it . There are several ways to teach Soo Do , yours is just 1 of the many ways .

David


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## mtabone (Mar 24, 2003)

Interesting, as my Lineage is also from the Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Fed. (Now Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Fed.) Though I will most assuredly look into it.

Michael Tabone


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## mtabone (Mar 24, 2003)

I believe the "New" Way was introduced around the time of 1978 or so. And yes, the "Older" way was to raise both hands above the head straight with one hand, both palms facing down, I believe. The "New" Way emphasized the hip rotation. I learn something new everyday. 


Tang Soo
Michael Tabone


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## okinawagojuryu (Mar 25, 2003)

I didnt know when it was instilled . I wonder how many of the other TSD groups do it that way ??????????? I totally forgot that way of doing it till you brought it up . I trained for a long time w/ The WMDKTSDF , & a lil' while w/ the WTSDA , they both do it the old way . Then I trained for a lil' while w/ a fed. studio , & I just didnt like the new way of doing things , the new forms , the newer way to do techniques , etc . ; Now , I have almost made a full transition over to Goju Ryu though , but still practice some of the TSD forms , but w/ more of an Okinawan , or Japanese flavor to it . I hope to meet your KJN , when he comes to FL next month .
I've communicated w/ him quite a bit .

David


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## mtabone (Mar 25, 2003)

I think I should clarify something about myself. While my lineage is directly to Moo Duk Kwan, my Kwan Jhang Nim Is Charles Ferraro. His instructor was the now Kwan Jhang Nim H.C. Hwang. I am a member of the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan. Just wanted to clarify. Thanks

Tang Soo!
Michael Tabone


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## okinawagojuryu (Mar 26, 2003)

Yep , I know . He's supposed to be comming to FL next mo. , I think . To his school down here in Plantation .

David


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