# Avoidance question



## Flamebearer (Jan 5, 2005)

Here's a question for all the grappling people:
I have a background in TKD, no groundfighting training whatsoever. So what are the best ways to avoid getting thrown on your back (and eating lots of grass or whatever other vegetation happens to be on the ground). Specifically, if someone comes at you quickly from about five feet away with their arms open (think bear hug), what's the best way to move so you don't end up on the ground?

 I've tried moving to the side, but it usually happens so fast that I can't get out of the way.

Thanks.
-Flamebearer


----------



## James Kovacich (Jan 5, 2005)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> Here's a question for all the grappling people:
> I have a background in TKD, no groundfighting training whatsoever. So what are the best ways to avoid getting thrown on your back (and eating lots of grass or whatever other vegetation happens to be on the ground). Specifically, if someone comes at you quickly from about five feet away with their arms open (think bear hug), what's the best way to move so you don't end up on the ground?
> 
> I've tried moving to the side, but it usually happens so fast that I can't get out of the way.
> ...


You could start by getting your "double underhooks" which is both of your arms under his. (Think your arms under his arm pits) You can control his arms by raisining your arms upward (while under his arms). With the pressure on his arms going upward it makes it difficult for him to complete his take down.

Also step back with 1 leg for a strong base. 

But you rreally need to get some good mat time in. Nothing replaces that.


----------



## cashwo (Jan 5, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> ...get some good mat time in. Nothing replaces that.


This is what I'm finding out as I come from a TKD background and have started down the BJJ path recently. Somwhere I read that if you don't want to be taken down then learn how to grapple, if you don't want to be hit learn boxing, and so forth. If i run across the article again I'll post it, it was a good article or maybe it was on a DVD, arg, I don't remember.


----------



## Sarah (Jan 5, 2005)

I agree, you need to learn to be comfortable on the ground, more often than not that is where a fight will end up (especially in the case of woman being attacked).

As for avoiding a tackle, I donno about different techniques, but I would defiantly step off line for a start. Maybe try working on reading your partners body more, you should be able to see it coming in just enough time to move.

Good luck with it.


----------



## James Kovacich (Jan 5, 2005)

I teach my students all the fight ranges with the focus being staying on our feet. But I constantly tell them that if you want to fight your fight and not you opponents fight, then you box a grappler and grapple a boxer. 

It does not work 100% like that but thats the mentality. I tell them to understand grappling one has to put in their mat time. It's not about being a great grappler, all that is needed is to be a good grappler.

My students are punishers. Thats the way I teach them, how to beat all of the systems that I've trained in. If someone is going to make them fight, then they deserve to be punished. :uhyeah:


----------



## MJS (Jan 5, 2005)

Looks like you've got some good replies.  I'll also agree that having some knowledge about the ground is key.  

I know you said its hard to get off line, but if you can, you might be able to throw a kick.  Nothing fancy..a simple front kick will work.  Akja gave some good advice.  Once the hooks are attained, and balance is established, knees to the groin, as well as digging your nails into the lat muscles are also 2 options.

Mike


----------



## Sarah (Jan 5, 2005)

I just love that comment



			
				akja said:
			
		

> If someone is going to make them fight, then they deserve to be punished. :uhyeah:


At my JJ Dojo we have a saying...Claim it, Own it, Break it!


----------



## Andrew Green (Jan 5, 2005)

Basic clinch tips for those with no experience against others without much either!

 - Keep your hips away from their hips.  Stick your but out and push their hips away

 - Stay low, the lower your center of gravity the harder it is to make you fall.  

 - If they come at you low keep your hips under them and in front of them.  Block them with your hips, but do not let them get under your hips.

 - Punch your way out, don't push them away without hitting, cause you will get hit... hard...  Push with your body, not by extending your arms.

 - Learn how to hit while moving backwards, If you can stop the first attempt and do a little damage in the process it will make them a little more cautious.


 - Keep both feet on the ground.  Don't try to kick, don't let them get your leg up, both feet on the ground.


----------



## James Kovacich (Jan 5, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Looks like you've got some good replies.  I'll also agree that having some knowledge about the ground is key.
> 
> I know you said its hard to get off line, but if you can, you might be able to throw a kick.  Nothing fancy..a simple front kick will work.  Akja gave some good advice.  Once the hooks are attained, and balance is established, knees to the groin, as well as digging your nails into the lat muscles are also 2 options.
> 
> Mike


Exactly. Once in control, bring the neck down use the knee, then take a guillotine or side choke or take 'em down or just punish 'em.

[*Also, learn to sprawl!!*


----------



## James Kovacich (Jan 5, 2005)

Sarah said:
			
		

> Claim it, Own it, Break it!



That comes easier than most would think. If your technique is good, when it's time to use it, bones will break.


----------



## Erik (Jan 5, 2005)

Unfortunately, TKD is the perfect antithesis for grappling. All those high kicks and a bit of boxing are like an archer shooting arrows. Once the swordsman (or grappler) comes in, you're toast.

 There is nothing you can do in TKD that will protect you against grapplers other than getting out of the way and keeping your distance. Once a grappler can touch you with the hand you are in range for a single- or double-leg takedown. 

  If you are kicking, you just lost your last bit of stability and will be going down even more easily.

  Takedown defense is a discipline of its own.  

 The first line of defense is a sprawl. Grappler shoots for your legs and you throw your legs back, sink your hip into his head or neck, and you had better get your underhooks in. 

 Think of the underhooks like catching a person with your arms. In wrestling we called the double underhook the "cowcatcher". Maybe that helps you imagine it? Or better to look it up on the 'Net somewhere.

 The worst thing you could do is to try one of those cool TKD kicks. You'll go down and probably land on your head which could injure you.

 But you probably need to learn enough about grappling to be able to sprawl, get your hooks, and styme the grappler enough that you're able to get back up and open the distance between him and you.

 From a sprawl with underhooks you may be able to repeatedly knee the guy's head on the top.  Don't overestimate this technique's effectiveness.  Your quad muscle is softer than the knee and is probably what will make contact.  Also, the top of the head is pretty solid.  

 Don't expect those knees to just knock the guy out.  But it is about all you have from that position.  I don't suggest elbowing the back because it won't hurt him enough to be worth the rist of loosing your position and being taken the rest of the way down.

 That being said, my trainer, Ralph Gracie, got KO'ed by a knee to the face (not top of head) as he shot a takedown at PRIDE last year.  Very, very rare, but it can be done, even to the best.

  But that's an artform in and of itself.  You're not going to learn it or any other takedown defense in TKD.


----------



## shane23ss (Jan 5, 2005)

Great responses here! My two cents is what has already been said here. If you are a "striker" first, try to get out of the way. If you see that doesn't work, or you can't pull it off, then MAKE SURE you get the under hooks. If you can get the under hooks and keep your hips low and away, also try to get his arms up as high as you can by pushing up with your arms under his arm pits. Sort of like you are trying to pull his shirt over his head with the top of your shoulders. If you can do all of this, then you have taken away any leverage he has. When getting out of this, keep both feet on the ground unless you feel that he is off balance. If he is off balance, then start with the knees. If he is not off balance, then hit, hit hard and hit fast while getting away. If all this fails and you do go to the ground, then you should be in a decent position with the under hooks. Try to get up as quick as you can to bring the fight back to you.


----------



## James Kovacich (Jan 5, 2005)

Erik said:
			
		

> That being said, my trainer, Ralph Gracie,
> .


So you're from the Bay?


----------



## Aaron Little (Jan 5, 2005)

As someone above said, takedowns defense is an art unto itself. 

You asked your question with a specific attack in mind. The opponent comes at you from 5 feet with arms spread to bear hug. If their arms are spread jab them in the face and move. Anyone crazy enough to step towards you with their hands down deserves to be jabbed in the face. 

If that that does not work then a forearm stop is your next line of defense. Front or rear forearm stop, pivot off line and strike. 

If that does not work your next line of defense would be working for underhooks. The thing is though from five feet away if you just automatically go for the underhook then you are unnecessarily tying yourself to him. I can only assume that if your are not comfortable with your takedown defense, then you are probably not to comfortable in the clinch either. Any high school wrestler on here should know what I mean by hands, forearms, hips, sprawl. There is no reason to tie up if you do not need to.

Some one suggested the sprawl. The sprawl is a tool that absolutely belongs in everyones toolbox. That being said, it does not really work when your opponent is coming at you straight up. Their shoulders need to be below your own for a sprawl to be effective. It is a very bad scene to sprawl and leave your opponent standing in front of you. It is pretty easy to set someone up once you figure out the he is sprawl happy though.


This is all in reference to the specific takedown \ attack mentioned in the original question.

I hope that this helps.


----------



## The Prof (Jan 5, 2005)

You really have to know how to play the game of you wish to have a chance at winning or survuving.  If you are lightening fast and can deliver your best shot with accuracy, that "may" help.  Remember though, some people can take the best of shots and not go down.   Of course you can always try to take out a knee cap or ACL or something like that.

Grappling is great fun.  If you have not already done so, try it with someone who is skilled at it.  Learn and enjoy.  
Again remember, there are many people who can take a good shot to the chops.

GOOD LUCK in whatever you choose.


----------



## MJS (Jan 5, 2005)

Good points Aaron!!  While there were many excellent replies, you're correct, this was a question with a specific attack.  For all attacks, there is that before, during and after phase.  That being said, we can actually break this question down into 3 parts.

1- What to do prior to the grab.

2- What to do after you're grabbed.

3- What to do after you land on the ground.
-----------------------------------
1- Create more distance between you and the attacker.  Put something in-between you and the attacker. Strike the attacker, as you mentioned.

2- Work the underhooks, knees, etc.

3- Do what you can to get back onto your feet.  Here is where having some basic ground skills will help out.

Mike


----------



## Flamebearer (Jan 7, 2005)

So many great tips... when they don't get too technical. A "sprawl", for instance.  I assume that involves throwing yourself on the ground...
Yes, I do realize that some formal training in a grappling art would be useful. That comes after I get competent in TKD... 
Basically all I know about groundfighting is establish a firm base by spreading your legs out on the ground and don't turn your back. After that I try to go for nerve points and bashing knees in if they are presented-although that involve taking a foot off the ground.
My takedown repertoire involves sweeps, leg drags (which I'm not very good at), a hip toss, and some arm controls. Obviously with my training at present, I wouldn't go throwing myself on top of the person I just took down.




			
				Erik said:
			
		

> The worst thing you could do is to try one of those cool TKD kicks. You'll go down and probably land on your head which could injure you.


 
Roundhouse to the face!  
No,high kicks are for training and sparring. I love it when I can catch someone else's high kick and put them on their tail. 
In a street situation my targets would be knees, groin, and at highest, solar plexus. 
So that's pretty much where I'm coming from.Thanks for your comments, I'd love to read more!!
-Flamebearer


----------



## Andrew Green (Jan 7, 2005)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> So many great tips... when they don't get too technical. A "sprawl", for instance. I assume that involves throwing yourself on the ground...


 No, it means keeping yourself from being thrown to the ground 

 Basically you have to widen your base, get your feet out wide and behind you to push back, Get your hip to block them, not letting them get under your hips. So if they shoot really low, your hips may end up on the ground but your upper body is on top of them. BUT it is very easy for yout to then stand up and attempt your boot to the head, with there head down low


----------



## shane23ss (Jan 8, 2005)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> Yes, I do realize that some formal training in a grappling art would be useful. That comes after I get competent in TKD...


One of the smartest things I've heard in a while.:asian:


----------



## Erik (Jan 10, 2005)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> My takedown repertoire involves sweeps, leg drags (which I'm not very good at), a hip toss, and some arm controls. Obviously with my training at present, I wouldn't go throwing myself on top of the person I just took down.


Actually, you would want to make sure you are on top of your opponent. That's very, very important. If you're not putting your weight on them so they're somewhat sandwiched, then you are at greater risk as you need to use your weight to immobilize him/her.

 From there, you can keep hitting and/or get off of him/her and return to standing.  If s/he is on top, you will be stuck and unable to disengage and return to the engagement range that TKD favors.

  For takedowns I suggest judo and greco-roman and freestyle wrestling.  These guys own the market on this kind of thing.  

 I enjoyed doing TKD and sparring with my Korean MA buddies and I certainly respect the disciplines (I did kuk sool for a while) but if you want to be practical, I'd suggest boxing and some sort of grappling with submissions. For a full-spectrum fight, TKD may not be what you are looking for.

 For a great MA with a lot of fitness, culture, and some cool acrobatics, TKD is awesome, but to blend a hybrid style with solid takedown defense, it may not be the best thing for you as TKD's engagement range is pretty far out (end of the leg distance) and a grappler gets right through that range really fast. You'll get one shot and if it doesn't knock him out (very rarely does, but has happened) you will find yourself fighting with non-TKD oriented skills.


----------



## psi_radar (Jan 10, 2005)

A sprawl looks a lot like the posture you'd take if you were trying to unstick a car from sand or snow, with your arms under the bumper and your feet pretty far out behind you, legs spread for stability and strength, leaning at about a 60 degree angle (if standing is 90). Now picture the car as a person instead, your arms under theirs, head under your chest. A sprawl is executed to foil the takedown, happening simultaneously, so it's very much a timing move that requires practice. Ask any wrestler to show you, it's one of the first moves they learn. 

Another simple maneuver you may want to try is shoving their head downward to the ground while they're shooting in. You'll probably have to be moving backward yourself while doing this so you don't get overwhelmed by the speed of their attack. This probably won't hurt him, but it might get him to change his tactics--people's natural reaction to this is to right themselves, stand up straight. They might get discouraged or turn to striking, which is more your forte. 

If you know any Silat people, ask them to show you a Patu Coppala. This is another simple and very effective move that's useful in this situation and countless others. An elbow to the jaw, nose or temple can take away a shooter's enthusiasm too.


----------



## Lisa (Jan 10, 2005)

I have a heck of a time sprawling too.  For me it is a mental thing, I think.  Anyways, I really like Psi radar's rendition of what a sprawl looks like.  I received a really good answer to sprawling from one of the other students in my school.



> Remember to fall just infront of your opponent, with your hips landing first.  Your arms will be either catching your oponent or around their back, or whatever, but you aren't stopping your opponent by pushing down at your arms; you're pulling them down with your center of mass.
> If you take a piece of paper and drop it, it floats to the ground in a very unsteady manner.  However, if you fold the paper diagonally from corner to corner, both ways, your paper is slightly cone shaped.  If you drop it now, it floats straight to the ground without all the unbalance a flat paper has.  Try it!
> This is how a sprawl works, with your hips being the center of mass.
> Falling infront means your hips should be landing first, and just infront of your opponent's head or a little to the side, giving him little room, but probably not hurting him since your hips are carrying the most weight force.  Since you're also moving horizontally as well as down, more than just your hips will absorb the impact when you land, lessening the point force on contact.  I also find that wherever my arms are, they take up the rest of the landing force so I don't get hurt.  When your partner shoots, you should have already changed levels, but you'll likely only want to sprawl once they are actually shooting.  Then, your arms or possibly your chest will come in contact with your opponent first, giving you control as you fall.   So, your hips hit the ground first yet don't crush your opponent's head, but your arms give you control before then, and take up the rest of the shock.


This made lots of sense to me.  Hope it helps. 

p.s.  Thanks Kyle!


----------



## psi_radar (Jan 10, 2005)

I'd like to add that a sprawl isn't an end in itself; a quick follow-up move (such as a shuck or a guillotine) is required since a skilled shooter can easily escape a sprawl after he gets his legs back under him. That, and all your weapons are occupied (except maybe your teeth) during the sprawl.


----------

