# Performing the Katas by Iain Abernethy



## Black Belt Jedi (Feb 24, 2012)

I like reading this article. It gives beginners and experts in any Martial Art that does kata improve their skills.

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/performing-katas


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## Jason Striker II (Feb 24, 2012)

Abernethy Sensei's work is well-regarded by the majority of Karate community. IMO also, a very good source of Bunkai material.


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## seasoned (Feb 24, 2012)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> I like reading this article. It gives beginners and experts in any Martial Art that does kata improve their skills.
> 
> http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/performing-katas


Yes



Jason Striker II said:


> Abernethy Sensei's work is well-regarded by the majority of Karate community. IMO also, a very good source of Bunkai material.


And yes again...................


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## Kong Soo Do (May 29, 2012)

I credit Abernethy Sensei for reshaping my opinions on the value of kata within an art.  Whereas many arts, sadly, relegate forms to nothing more than a class-filler or something to 'do' to reach the next colored belt, Abernethy Sensei demonstrates the value that even a single kata can provide an art.  Indeed, look at his work on the Pinan/Heian katas as an example.  Taking just Pinan Shodan, there is enough information contained within this single kata to provide any Karateka months, even years of practical training.

For those that have read his articles on Pinan Shodan, or seen his video, look at the opening movement of that kata.  He demonstrates it as an effective shoulder lock, and take down.  This in and of itself opens up a plethora of balance displacement principles as well as lock variations.  He goes further and demonstrates how the principle is also effective on the ground.  Again, opening up a plethora of principles for practical training.  Just this opening movement could provided weeks worth, if not months worth of indepth training.


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## Tez3 (May 29, 2012)

If you ever get a chance to do one of his seminars go even if you have to walk all the way across a continent and sell the family to do so! You'll find he's a very good instructor and also a really nice guy with a good line in funny stories that illustrate what he's teaching. One of my favourite people.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 29, 2012)

I've got his Pinan/Heian video and he comes across as a good fellow.  I like his approach and teaching style as well.  He is informative, yet also encouraging in looking into applications for yourself.  I like that.  The 'my way is the only way' gets old and puts a crimp in delving into the art.  His approach puts you on the right path but then gives you freedom to see the sites as well along the way.


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## K-man (May 29, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I credit Abernethy Sensei for reshaping my opinions on the value of kata within an art.  Whereas many arts, sadly, relegate forms to nothing more than a class-filler or something to 'do' to reach the next colored belt, Abernethy Sensei demonstrates the value that even a single kata can provide an art.


I credit Iain Abernethy among a select few who turned my karate around from ordinary everyday boring to dynamic and exciting.  I would love to have the opportunity to train with him.    :asian:


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## rickster (May 29, 2012)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> I like reading this article. It gives beginners and experts in any Martial Art that does kata improve their skills.
> 
> http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/performing-katas




I also liked his article about high kicking


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## 72ronin (May 29, 2012)

K-man said:


> I credit Iain Abernethy among a select few who turned my karate around from ordinary everyday boring to dynamic and exciting. :asian:



Similar experience here. I can remember thinking something like "why isnt this standard practice", well, at some stage at least. Same with P McCarthy's work.
Kata and Kumite were seemingly so detatched from each other that the two had absolutely no crossover in my experience, Sparring was basicaly kickboxing and the kata were never looked at in any great depth beyond block/punch etc.
How we ever filtered karate down to that is beyond me!

And i could find old footage of the Japanese (Shotokan im talking of) passing kata over as block/punch too, so we dont have to take all the blame lol. I sometimes think of it like, "if one doesnt have the capacity to dig deeper then so be it" Like a natural progression within the undertaking. The problem is that somewhere along the line the standard of kihon kata kumite (as seperate entities) became the whole product, so here we are apparently looking outside the box kind of thing to find what was there the whole time!
That is, in my personal experience with Karate anyway.


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## K-man (May 30, 2012)

72ronin said:


> Similar experience here. I can remember thinking something like "why isnt this standard practice", well, at some stage at least. Same with P McCarthy's work.
> Kata and Kumite were seemingly so detatched from each other that the two had absolutely no crossover in my experience, Sparring was basicaly kickboxing and the kata were never looked at in any great depth beyond block/punch etc.
> How we ever filtered karate down to that is beyond me!
> 
> ...


I attended one of Patrick's seminars recently and enjoyed it very much. 

What style karate do you practise?    :asian:


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## 72ronin (May 30, 2012)

Shotokan (Shindo Karate Assoc.) - hosted Iain Abernethy a couple years ago.


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## chinto (May 31, 2012)

Kata is where its at folks, in the Traditional Karate Kata of Okinawa there are at least 5 techniques hidden in each movement of the kata!  so Go and LOOK for them. there are Throws, Locks, Brakes, sweeps, strikes and anything else you can think of hidden in there!  Grappling was and is part of Okinawan Karate! So are Strikes, Locks, sweeps, brakes and strikes! Its all in there. its a complete system designed with survival in real combat against armed and unarmed attackers!


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 1, 2012)

chinto said:


> Kata is where its at folks, in the Traditional Karate Kata of Okinawa there are at least 5 techniques hidden in each movement of the kata! so Go and LOOK for them. there are Throws, Locks, Brakes, sweeps, strikes and anything else you can think of hidden in there! Grappling was and is part of Okinawan Karate! So are Strikes, Locks, sweeps, brakes and strikes! Its all in there. its a complete system designed with survival in real combat against armed and unarmed attackers!



+1

Unfortunately, far too many arts that have their roots in Okinawan Karate have either moved away from this, or never taught it in the first place.  It is the students of these arts that I feel sorry for the most as it has robbed them of that which is truly the essense of the art.  There are some instructors though that have gone the extra mile to learn these applications and apply them to the forms that they teach.  I applaud them for the effort.  Those are the instructors, imho, who truly have their students best interest at heart (speaking from a SD perspective).  

As I mentioned recently in a TKD thread, TKD forms can/and do have these applications built in since they are derived from older Okinwan kata.  Therefore, TKD (and other arts that came from Okinawan Karate) can enjoy locks, throws, balance displacement etc as well.  This would tend to move away from the cookie-cutter approach to forms and thus churning out belt after belt as quickly as possible in an attempt to inflate an organizations total numbers, but, it would make for a much better martial artist in the long run.  Again, imho, that is a better bottom line than total numbers.


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## rickster (Jun 1, 2012)

Could one say thee are Katas in MMA, Boxing, Wrestling, Football, Baseball, etc.?


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 2, 2012)

Could you give me a better idea of what you're looking for in response?  Thank you.


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## rickster (Jun 2, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Could you give me a better idea of what you're looking for in response?  Thank you.



Are you directing this to me?


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## Chris Parker (Jun 3, 2012)

rickster said:


> Could one say thee are Katas in MMA, Boxing, Wrestling, Football, Baseball, etc.?



No. Not in this sense.


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## seasoned (Jun 3, 2012)

rickster said:


> Could one say thee are Katas in MMA, Boxing, Wrestling, Football, Baseball, etc.?



You could say this if memorization was the only goal. Martial arts kata go much deeper, learning patterns that can be adapted to many varied techniques.


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## Master Dan (Jun 3, 2012)

Jason Striker II said:


> Abernethy Sensei's work is well-regarded by the majority of Karate community. IMO also, a very good source of Bunkai material.



He is also well respected by those in the know in Taekwondo related to Bunkai interpretation of our own forms. Very nice man easy to talk with DVD's are worth having


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 3, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> He is also well respected by those in the know in Taekwondo related to Bunkai interpretation of our own forms. Very nice man easy to talk with DVD's are worth having



Very true.  Stuart Anslow and Simon O'Neill have both written books based upon this bunkai/hoshin interpretation methodology.  Although there are many in the TKD community that resist this methodology, it is a valid avenue of delving much deeper into the art of TKD (or any art based off of Okinawan karate).  It is a growing community within those arts as more and more students desire more 'meat' in their training beyond just the cookie-cutter 'learn a form-get a new belt' method of training.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 3, 2012)

rickster said:


> Could one say thee are Katas in MMA, Boxing, Wrestling, Football, Baseball, etc.?



Take an interpretive dance class and then look at kata. Better yet, take a look at hula and how it relates to lua. The Okinawan cultural tradition is similar.


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## Ray B (Jun 4, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Better yet, take a look at hula and how it relates to lua. The Okinawan cultural tradition is similar.



Karate is a lot like hula. You have the traditional, (kahiko) and modern, (auana).
You also have the same arguments about what is pono (traditional).

You will not find much lua in the modern stuff but the old traditional stuff is full of it.
Again, like traditional and modern kata.

I choreographed a fight scene commemorating the Makahiki last year for my halau.
Much of what I found was very similar to what I learned from karate.


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## Tez3 (Jun 4, 2012)

Is the dance a teaching method though? Kata is for teaching techniques, if the dance is simliar does it too have a meaning other than just doing the movements?


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## Makalakumu (Jun 5, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Is the dance a teaching method though? Kata is for teaching techniques, if the dance is simliar does it too have a meaning other than just doing the movements?



Yes, the dance is a teaching method.  Traditional Lua students start by learning all of the basics in Kane Kahiko.  These are the traditional male dances that have been passed down through the generations.  Eventually, males are selected for martial arts training, or they show interest, and begin to learn how to interpret the moves in a martial way.  So, the moves serve many purposes.  One of the purposes is to tell a story.  Another of the purposes is to actually teach martial arts technique.  

In Okinawan culture, dance serves much of the same function as it does in Hawaiian culture.  I don't know if kata tell a story like Kahiko tells a story.  I suspect that it very well could have, but that aspect of kata has been lost or is completely unknown outside small small segments of Okinawan culture.  What we do know is that moves in kata mean many different things.  They can be actual techniques.  They can be abbreviated versions of techniques.  They can illustrate principles.  They can tell a story of the progression of a fight.  They can contain specific knowledge of anatomy and how to attack it.  They can show weapon techniques.  They can hint at forms of attack not directly shown in the kata.  They can show how to heal an opponent.

In this way, kata and lua are very similar.  Hula forms the basis for Lua and Lomi Lomi (the Hawaiian healing massage, another traditional skill taught to warriors).  The motions with the body transcend all three.  It's very interesting.  Take a look at this dance and let me know what you think...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xr1Wd17w-g&feature=fvwrel

I wish I had more time.  My daughter's halau added a male kahiko class...


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## rickster (Jun 6, 2012)

seasoned said:


> You could say this if memorization was the only goal. Martial arts kata go much deeper, learning patterns that can be adapted to many varied techniques.



Martial arts kata go much deeper, learning patterns that can be adapted to many varied techniques........and other activities cannt do this as well per their speciality?


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## K-man (Jun 6, 2012)

rickster said:


> Could one say there are Katas in MMA, Boxing, Wrestling, Football, Baseball, etc.?


Getting back to your question. I could be convinced you _might_ be able to develop a kata for wrestling, less likely for MMA, even less for boxing and not at all for football or baseball. 

Could I ask what you understand as 'kata' and how do you see it applying in these areas?     :asian:


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## Tez3 (Jun 7, 2012)

K-man said:


> Getting back to your question. I could be convinced you _might_ be able to develop a kata for wrestling, less likely for MMA, even less for boxing and not at all for football or baseball.
> 
> Could I ask what you understand as 'kata' and how do you see it applying in these areas? :asian:



You wouldn't need kata for MMA surely as many of the styles encompassed within it already have them, karate, Judo, TKD etc.


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## Master Dan (Jun 7, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Very true.  Stuart Anslow and Simon O'Neill have both written books based upon this bunkai/hoshin interpretation methodology.  Although there are many in the TKD community that resist this methodology, it is a valid avenue of delving much deeper into the art of TKD (or any art based off of Okinawan karate).  It is a growing community within those arts as more and more students desire more 'meat' in their training beyond just the cookie-cutter 'learn a form-get a new belt' method of training.


Thank you well said why some choose to come from on high and speak for all that just because they cannot find it in thier book or a committee or org has not endorsed it? Our group believes and teaches that all MA regardless of style owes its origins to TCM 8,000 years ago. Why refuse to add more richness and reality to your personal training and better personal self defense. We always start when teaching seminars keep an open mind. I think resistance comes from the insecurity of not knowing. When you take away learning that was originally only passed down master to deciple so the public could not comprehend just from watching practice or art forms being required to be taught only as a school sport you are only left with myth and legend for many of the current party base line explainations of movements.

Allowing bunkai/hoshin interpretation methodology becomes a spirtual right freedom of expression not to be restricted by any person claiming heracy or so and so or committe never taught that or even worse ownership of all movements really who invented each basic single move that makes up the forms at its purest origin. It is infinite with out begining or end.


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## K-man (Jun 7, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> You wouldn't need kata for MMA surely as many of the styles encompassed within it already have them, karate, Judo, TKD etc.


True. What I was getting at was that boxing has rules to stop holding, therefore kata, which requires some form of restraint to ensure the next technique, will not really work or is not going to work well.  Best situation would be a predetermined response against a straight right or a left hook etc. With MMA you could use existing kata or perhaps look at developing something more suited for ground work. That's why I qualified my statement "_might _be able to develop".  Personally, I wouldn't bother, but the question was asked.       :asian:


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## Tez3 (Jun 7, 2012)

K-man said:


> True. What I was getting at was that boxing has rules to stop holding, therefore kata, which requires some form of restraint to ensure the next technique, will not really work or is not going to work well. Best situation would be a predetermined response against a straight right or a left hook etc. With MMA you could use existing kata or perhaps look at developing something more suited for ground work. That's why I qualified my statement "_might _be able to develop". Personally, I wouldn't bother, but the question was asked. :asian:




According to Iain though, who like myself comes from Wado Ryu, there are techniques within the katas for ground work. He is a Judoka as well so can see the movements that work on the ground. Even I can see some and I have to work at it usually. Watching Iain I get alot of 'ah so that's what that is' moments!


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## rickster (Jun 7, 2012)

K-man said:


> Getting back to your question. I could be convinced you _might_ be able to develop a kata for wrestling, less likely for MMA, even less for boxing and not at all for football or baseball.
> 
> Could I ask what you understand as 'kata' and how do you see it applying in these areas?     :asian:



Is Kata a rehearsed routine?

Is it a routine to bring about a degree of awareness?

Will it develop the awareness to a level of profficiency?


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## Chris Parker (Jun 8, 2012)

rickster said:


> Is Kata a rehearsed routine?
> 
> Is it a routine to bring about a degree of awareness?
> 
> Will it develop the awareness to a level of profficiency?



Firstly, how is you asking such open ended questions actually answering K-Man's one? You know, what do you understand kata as being? Because...



rickster said:


> Is Kata a rehearsed routine?



Kind of, but that's not really the point. The only reason it is a such is that that makes it a reliable and consistent teaching form.



rickster said:


> Is it a routine to bring about a degree of awareness?



No, that's not what kata is about.



rickster said:


> Will it develop the awareness to a level of profficiency?



Not really sure what you're talking about with "awareness to a level of proficiency"... but again, this doesn't appear to be really relevant, as it's completely devoid of what kata is about.

So, if you would be so kind, before we explain it to you, can you tell us what you understand kata to be, so we can see where you need correction?


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## Sojobo (Jun 8, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> According to Iain though, who like myself comes from Wado Ryu, there are techniques within the katas for ground work. He is a Judoka as well so can see the movements that work on the ground. Even I can see some and I have to work at it usually. Watching Iain I get alot of 'ah so that's what that is' moments!



Mr Abernethy may come from a Wado background, however his approach is very un Wado in my experience.

Wado-ryu does not have Bunkai - or at least not in the "Okinawan" karate sense.

That said, I am not saying that what he does is bad - far from it, but it's definitely not Wado.

Sojobo


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## Tez3 (Jun 8, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> Mr Abernethy may come from a Wado background, however his approach is very un Wado in my experience.
> 
> Wado-ryu does not have Bunkai - or at least not in the "Okinawan" karate sense.
> 
> ...



It's the Wado that I know as well as Iain and it's what taught here, it certainly does have Bunkai.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wado-Karate-Do-Kata-Bunkai-Vol-1/dp/B0017HP9GA

http://bunkaijutsu.com/tag/wado-ryu-bunkai/

http://japankarateintern.blogspot.co.uk/2008/06/more-wado-kata-team-kata-team-bunkai.html

http://karatedojo1.tripod.com/id11.html

Perhaps your Wado training didn't include Bunkai? Not everywhere does.


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## Sojobo (Jun 8, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> It's the Wado that I know as well as Iain and it's what taught here, it certainly does have Bunkai.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wado-Karate-Do-Kata-Bunkai-Vol-1/dp/B0017HP9GA
> 
> ...



My Wado training includes Kaisetsu, which is quite different to the process of bunkai.

http://www.ishikawa-karate.com/kata/kaisetsu.htm

Sojobo


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## Tez3 (Jun 8, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> My Wado training includes Kaisetsu, which is quite different to the process of bunkai.
> 
> http://www.ishikawa-karate.com/kata/kaisetsu.htm
> 
> Sojobo



That's very nice website! the curriculum is one I'm familiar with, however 20 years ago when I started Wado we did do Bunkai, I didn't discover it with Iain, he's just clarified it and made it easier to understand for me. Here's a discussion off Iain's old website about Kaisetsu.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000160


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## Sojobo (Jun 8, 2012)

I think the word Bunkai has become a "must have" within many Karate groups (even Wado ones) without its actual process being trully understood.

It is very much the driving force behind Okinwan karate like Goju-ryu, but of course Wado isn't Okinawan - its Japanese - and in most part, its DNA comes from Koryu Bujutsu (Shindo Yoshin Ryu etc).

If you train with some of the older Japanese intsructors like Hakoishi and Ohgami etc, they will use the expression like "explanation" of movement rather than Bunkai and then it is always within the omote of the kata itself.

This is different from Bunkai.

Does your goup practice Kihon Gumite, Idori and Tantodori etc Tez?


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## Tez3 (Jun 8, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> I think the word Bunkai has become a "must have" within many Karate groups (even Wado ones) without its actual process being trully understood.
> 
> It is very much the driving force behind Okinwan karate like Goju-ryu, but of course Wado isn't Okinawan - its Japanese - and in most part, its DNA comes from Koryu Bujutsu (Shindo Yoshin Ryu etc).
> 
> ...




I think you should go across to Iain's website and forum and argue it out lol, actually I think you'd enjoy the discussion, I'm a bit slow on the more esoteric discussions on martial arts, I really do the prefer the 'this is the technique, it does this and this is why' sort of approach! 

I left Wado, or rather it left me about 8 years ago when the club closed down and I took up Tang Soo Do which, and I expect this will upset a lot of people but it's my opinion that TSD is a poor substitute for Wado, there's not the depth and breadth I loved about Wado. We used to do Kihon Gumite though. I was sighing as I was looking at your website, I miss it a lot!


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## Sojobo (Jun 8, 2012)

hehe - I've popped over there a few times, and as I say, I don't think what he does is bad - but it's also not Wado. Iain and I have communicated over this (over the years) and tbf he does concede that whilst he uses the "frame" of wado kata to transmit his approaches - he is not suggesting it is Wado.

And, I admire him for that.

Sojobo


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## Tez3 (Jun 8, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> hehe - I've popped over there a few times, and as I say, I don't think what he does is bad - but it's also not Wado. Iain and I have communicated over this (over the years) and tbf he does concede that whilst he uses the "frame" of wado kata to transmit his approaches - he is not suggesting it is Wado.
> 
> And, I admire him for that.
> 
> Sojobo



Then the next time you come over, book on one of his seminars and I'll do the same, be good training!

I do think though that whatever you call it and however you deal with it, katas must be seen as more than just a pretty set of movements akin to dance. I get frustrated with those who say it's to teach you how to breathe/move your feet/show your moves off etc etc.


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## Sojobo (Jun 8, 2012)

I don't have a lot of time to train these days, so I'd probably go and train with a good Wado instructor (or my Koryu instructor) - before booking with Iain - but that's just me. 

To each their own. 


Sojobo


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## K-man (Jun 9, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> Mr Abernethy may come from a Wado background, however his approach is very un Wado in my experience.
> 
> Wado-ryu does not have Bunkai - or at least not in the "Okinawan" karate sense.
> 
> ...


I often wonder whether bunkai was taught much in karate at all. Hohan Soken is the only karateka of note that I have seen evidence of advanced knowledge of kata. He was the grandson of Soken Mutsumura, one of the true legends. Soken Matsumura, Kanryo Higaonna and Kanbun Uechi all studied versions of Kung fu to a very high level in China before bringing their knowledge back to Okinawa and incorporating it into the local 'Te'. I would assume the had a very high understanding of the kata they brought back with them.

I will use Goju as the example.  I believe kata is the 'book of knowledge', but it is written in a way that you need expert guidance to find your way. The man behind the formation of Goju Ryu was Kanryo Higaonna.  He spent many years in China learning then teaching Kung fu before returning to Okinawa and teaching Naha-Te. His student, and founder of Goju Ryu was Chojun Miyagi.  I believe the original guys did not pass on their full knowledge to any but their top student. In Miyagi's case that was Jinan Shinzato. He was killed during WWII.  

Now, I will present two hypothetical scenarios, both which end with the same conclusion. 

1. Higaonna may have taught Miyagi all he knew. Miyagi was with Higaonna for about 14 years or about the same time Higaonna was in China. He in turn may have taught or began to teach Shinzato, who was killed in the war. Miyagi had numerous senior students, but no nominated successor. His knowledge died with him in 1953.

2. Higaonna taught Miyagi the basics, but not the full knowledge of the kata. This may have been because Master Ryu Ryu Ko, the man who taught him, was still alive in China.  So he might have suggested that Miyagi travel to China to learn from Ryu Ryu Ko.  After Higaonna died, Miyagi went to China, but Ryu Ryu Ko was no longer there, so Miyagi may never actually have learned the secrets of the kata. He returned twice more, for short trips only, so would not have had time to learn anything profound.

Wado Ryu is a recent style. Probably, it never had 'bunkai'.  Yamaguchi claimed to be Miyagi's successor but Goju Kai only developed 'bunkai' in the 1980s, and it was just choreography. It did not exist when I started training. Yogi was Yamaguchi's mentor and a senior student of Miyagi but he didn't have the knowledge. Morio Higaonna is another high ranking Goju practitioner who has 'bunkai' on the web, but once again, it is choreography. He claims that An'ichi Miyagi was Chojun Miyagi's chosen one, but he didn't have the knowledge either.  

Eiichi Miyazato, was the elected successor to Miyagi, but not only did he not teach these 'hidden secrets', he encouraged Masaji Taira to 'explore' the kata.  

I'm not sure when George Dillman started with bunkai but I believe it was the 1980s and I think Iain Abernethy was not long after. So 'bunkai' is really a modern phenomenon.

Of what I have seen, George Dillman, Iain Abernethy and Masaji Taira are the ones who have done most to foster greater understanding of the kata. I know people are reluctant to take Dillman seriously, but his early work is very good. Iain's understanding and teaching is brilliant, and Taira's knowledge is just beyond everything I have yet found.

I would be interested in hearing if anyone has knowledge of 'bunkai' being taught prior to the 1980s.   :asian:


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## Makalakumu (Jun 9, 2012)

In the 1970s, Peter Carbone Sensei help Taika Oyata come to the United States.  Eventually, Oyata decided to make his home there.  The style that Oyata taught was Ryu Kyu Kempo.  George Dillman went to an Oyata Seminar early on and had his mind blown and that's how Dillman got his start.  I guess, as the story goes, Oyata actually promoted Dillman to 7th degree blackbelt in Ryu Kyu Kempo in order to encourage him to keep developing his ideas, but Dillman steered into weird waters and Oyata cut ties with him.  Further, I guess the main reason that Oyata changed the name of his style to Ryu Te was to distinguish himself from Dillman, who was using the name Ryu Kyu Kempo.  

At any rate, Taika Oyata is probably one of the foremost experts in the United States on the topic of bunkai.  I've gone to a seminar taught by him, hosted at one of his senior student's dojos in Moorhead, Minnesota.  Oyata did things with traditional karate kata that I have never seen before.  Oyata has precision striking, knowledge of anatomy, and combines it all with body manipulations and footwork.  And he ties it all back to the kata.  So, if you are looking for other sources within the US, people who are experts on the topic of bunkai and can teach you how it all relates back to kata, look no further then Oyata and Ryu Te. 

http://www.ryute.com/

As a side note, my Tang Soo Do teacher learned bunkai from one of Oyata's direct students.  He earned a shodan in Ryu Kyu Kempo before the name changed to Ryu Te.  So, this is the source of the bunkai in my art.  Essentially, my teacher began the process of dissecting the traditional TSD kata in the way that he was taught from his studies of Ryu Kyu Kempo and, since our arts kata share a similar lineage, much of the knowledge was directly transferable.  Therefore, I owe a lot of my knowledge of bunkai to Oyata Sensei.


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## K-man (Jun 9, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> In the 1970s, Peter Carbone Sensei help Taika Oyata come to the United States.  Eventually, Oyata decided to make his home there.  The style that Oyata taught was Ryu Kyu Kempo.  George Dillman went to an Oyata Seminar early on and had his mind blown and that's how Dillman got his start.  I guess, as the story goes, Oyata actually promoted Dillman to 7th degree blackbelt in Ryu Kyu Kempo in order to encourage him to keep developing his ideas, but Dillman steered into weird waters and Oyata cut ties with him.  Further, I guess the main reason that Oyata changed the name of his style to Ryu Te was to distinguish himself from Dillman, who was using the name Ryu Kyu Kempo.
> 
> At any rate, Taika Oyata is probably one of the foremost experts in the United States on the topic of bunkai.  I've gone to a seminar taught by him, hosted at one of his senior student's dojos in Moorhead, Minnesota.  Oyata did things with traditional karate kata that I have never seen before.  Oyata has precision striking, knowledge of anatomy, and combines it all with body manipulations and footwork.  And he ties it all back to the kata.  So, if you are looking for other sources within the US, people who are experts on the topic of bunkai and can teach you how it all relates back to kata, look no further then Oyata and Ryu Te.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this info.   I had the idea Dillman got his info from Hohan Soken as some of the material I have has come from there.  Coincidently, it is the same material circulated by Erle Montaigue, so I just assumed it was of Chinese origin.



> Taika was also introduced to Master Wakinaguri who was a Chinese Martial Artist and was also a Bushi warrior. Master Wakinaguri was asked to teach Taika the art of vital point striking and pressure point striking, techniques for which Master Wakinaguri was renowned.      http://www.ryushu.com/oyata.html



I obviously haven't done enough reading.  I wasn't aware that Ryukyu Kempo was of Okinawan origin. However it would seem that Taika received his knowledge from Wakinaguri, not from a traditional Okinawan karate style. It seems that both his teachers, Uhugusiku and Wakinaguri, were descended from the '36 Chinese families' of Okinawa.  So this ties in with my original thoughts, that bunkai was not commonly part of 'traditional' karate.      :asian:


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## Makalakumu (Jun 9, 2012)

From my research into this, traditional Okinawan styles are pretty much teaching a "modern" form of karate.  Many of the training methods implemented in Shotokan have been imported into Okinawan schools.  Based on what I've read at the Hawaii Karate Library and from other sources like Patrick McCarthy, Mark Bishop, and Iain Abernethy, traditional Okinawan Karate teaching methods never mentioned the word bunkai.  Bunkai is a modern word.  The Okinawans would teach you the drills in the kata in small sessions, presided over by the teacher, and once you had mastered those, then you were shown the kata.  Then, the movements in the kata would simply tie everything together.  There was no need for the term bunkai.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 9, 2012)

K-man said:


> ...so I just assumed it was of Chinese origin...It seems that both his teachers, Uhugusiku and Wakinaguri, were descended from the '36 Chinese families' of Okinawa.



Kara Te = China Hand

There probably isn't much that is Okinawan that isn't also Chinese.


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## rickster (Jun 9, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Kara Te = China Hand
> 
> There probably isn't much that is Okinawan that isn't also Chinese.



Actually, Kara te does NOT mean Chinese Hand

The proper earlier reference is Tang Te _ China Hand


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## Makalakumu (Jun 10, 2012)

rickster said:


> Actually, Kara te does NOT mean Chinese Hand
> 
> The proper earlier reference is Tang Te _ China Hand



Kara can mean Empty or Tang, which refers to China.


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## rickster (Jun 10, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Kara can mean Empty or Tang, which refers to China.



Nope. You are mistaken...Kara is in no reference to "China"

Kara and/or Te, is purely a Japanese reference-term


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## Makalakumu (Jun 10, 2012)

rickster said:


> Nope. You are mistaken...Kara is in no reference to "China"
> 
> Kara and/or Te, is purely a Japanese reference-term



I have some strong sources that seem to indicate that the character for Kara can be read as "China".

http://seinenkai.com/



> Around the late sixteenth century A.D., during the Sui dynasty of China, Karate was called _Te_ by the Okinawan people. _Te _means hand.  The term _Te_ took the prefix _To_ and thus became _To-Te_, but it is pronounced as _Tode_.  This prefix (Chinese ideograph) To can also be read as _Kara_; therefore, this ideographic combination can be read either as _Tode_ or _Karate_.
> 
> 
> Why and when this change took place is not known since there are  virtually no written references to the native art of the Okinawans; the  scant information that we have is based on oral transmission of the  traditions.  In the following speculation, however, we can see some very  tangible evidence of this change.
> ...



If you have some information that would overturn this, I would surely like to see it.  I would also like for my schools Japanese teacher, who is a skilled Wado stylist, to see it as well.


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## rickster (Jun 10, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> I have some strong sources that seem to indicate that the character for Kara can be read as "China".
> 
> If you have some information that would overturn this, I would surely like to see it.  I would also like for my schools Japanese teacher, who is a skilled Wado stylist, to see it as well.



You have taken this out of context.

Kara and Te, is Japanese reference

Tang/Tode/Tuti, is the Chinese Reference

Saying Karate is reference per translation to Chinese Hand is like incorrectly saying if you speak Chinese, you can speak Japanese because they are both from Asia. 

Now, in actual distinction, Tode/Tang originally had translated as Chinese Hand, but via the Japanese occupation they changed it to mean "Kara-Te, Empty Hand", as this was a attempt for the Japanese to get rid of the Chinese association


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## K-man (Jun 10, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> According to Iain though, who like myself comes from Wado Ryu, there are techniques within the katas for ground work. He is a Judoka as well so can see the movements that work on the ground. Even I can see some and I have to work at it usually. Watching Iain I get alot of 'ah so that's what that is' moments!


Ah, yes. I agree with you 100%. The kata can easily work with grappling.  The reason I said "developing something more suited to ground work", is because a lot of the kata portrays very nasty, or lethal, techniques.  Strikes with the point of the elbow, eye gouges, throat grabs, neck cranks, groin grabs, etc are all frowned upon in MMA competition. If you were to use kata for MMA (and I'm not suggesting you would) then the rules would have to be taken into account.  But, on the other hand, I don't believe kata was intended for use against trained martial artists either.

And, I can identify with the 'aha' moments. We all had the same experience the first time we trained with Taira. You could see the lights coming on all over the place.  Iain came to Melbourne two years ago and unfortunately I was away at the time. I'm really looking forward to next time he visits.      :asian:


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## K-man (Jun 10, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Kara Te = China Hand
> 
> There probably isn't much that is Okinawan that isn't also Chinese.


I agree that a lot of Okinawan martial arts are based on Chinese practice, but the Okinawans didn't import everything they learned.  On top of that, a lot of what they learned was not passed on when karate was being used to promote health and fitness in schools and universities. I think we are fortunate now to be training in the time a lot of the applications are being rediscovered.

Something that we practise is Tegumi, or Okinawan wrestling. I incorporate Qin Na into this as well.  Most Goju schools practise Kakie but very few use Tegumi.    :asian:


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## Chris Parker (Jun 10, 2012)

rickster said:


> You have taken this out of context.
> 
> Kara and Te, is Japanese reference
> 
> ...



Rickster. You're wrong. Deal with it.

The original term used on Okinawa was dominantly "Te" &#25163; (pronounced "ti/di" in the native dialect), sometimes "Tode/Todei". The first character, "to", is written with this character: &#21776;. That character is also pronounced "kara", and is a reference to Tang China. In other words, the term "karate" and "tode" are the same thing, written with the same characters, and with the same meaning: &#21776;&#25163;, "kara te", meaning "China (Tang Dynasty) Hand". In 1936 there was a meeting of some of the most dominant names in karate about what they were going to call their art for the Japanese people, and (from memory) Chojun Miyagi mentioned that he'd been using the same phrase (karate), but with a different character for the first part, meaning "empty", making "karate" &#31354;&#25163;.

In other words, "karate" (&#21776;&#25163 is Japanese for "China Hand", and is an older name for the art known today as "karate" &#31354;&#25163;. You're completely wrong with your references to "Chinese reference" and "Japanese reference", you know. And I have no idea what you're talking about with the whole "speak Chinese/speak Japanese" thing... yeah, and your dates on the name change are out as well.

So, uh, no.


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## Sojobo (Jun 10, 2012)

K-man said:


> Ah, yes. I agree with you 100%. The kata can easily work with grappling.  The reason I said "developing something more suited to ground work", is because a lot of the kata portrays very nasty, or lethal, techniques.  Strikes with the point of the elbow, eye gouges, throat grabs, neck cranks, groin grabs, etc are all frowned upon in MMA competition. If you were to use kata for MMA (and I'm not suggesting you would) then the rules would have to be taken into account.  But, on the other hand, I don't believe kata was intended for use against trained martial artists either.
> 
> And, I can identify with the 'aha' moments. We all had the same experience the first time we trained with Taira. You could see the lights coming on all over the place.  Iain came to Melbourne two years ago and unfortunately I was away at the time. I'm really looking forward to next time he visits.      :asian:



Can it?

I'd say an easier way to learn how to grapple was to learn grappling?

As a Wado-ka and a Jujutsu-ka - I can understand where you guys are coming from but I think you are wasting your time if I am being honest.

Trying to shoe-horn jujutsu techniques into Karate Kata (particularly Wado kata) is like reverse engineering to me. 

And it completely misses the point of doing solo kata in the first place imo.


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## Tez3 (Jun 10, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> Can it?
> 
> I'd say an easier way to learn how to grapple was to learn grappling?
> 
> ...




We aren't learning jujutsu from Wado Ryu kata at all, we were saying that there are takedowns and grappling movements in it. Ohtsuka Sensei was a Jujutsu master so it's more than likely that there are grappling movements in the kata, you put in what you know after all. 

Takedowns and grappling may be needed for defence, being on the floor isn't ideal, far from it but you don't _not_ learn to fight on the floor just because of that. Fighting isn't ideal but we learn to do it for self defence.
http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/karate-grappling-did-it-really-exist

What do you think the point of solo kata is?


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## Sojobo (Jun 10, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> We aren't learning jujutsu from Wado Ryu kata at all, we were saying that there are takedowns and grappling movements in it. Ohtsuka Sensei was a Jujutsu master so it's more than likely that there are grappling movements in the kata, you put in what you know after all.
> 
> Takedowns and grappling may be needed for defence, being on the floor isn't ideal, far from it but you don't _not_ learn to fight on the floor just because of that. Fighting isn't ideal but we learn to do it for self defence.
> http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/karate-grappling-did-it-really-exist
> ...



Hmm - What sort of Jujutsu do you think Otsuka was a master of?

In most main stream wado schools - the closest you will come to "ground work" is Idori - and to understand that, you have to look at where wado comes from.

Here is a good essay on the subject by Tim Shaw: 

http://www.wadoryu.org.uk/jujutsu.html

As to what the purpose of solo kata is...

Have a read of that first

Sojobo


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## Tez3 (Jun 10, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> Hmm - What sort of Jujutsu do you think Otsuka was a master of?
> 
> In most main stream wado schools - the closest you will come to "ground work" is Idori - and to understand that, you have to look at where wado comes from.
> 
> ...



Interesting but only the view of one club, in Chelmsford rather than a world authority.

I think you have mistaken what we are discussing, you seem to think we are or think we should be learning grappling in a Wado Ryo class. We don't. It is just that some of the techniques in the Bunkai are either takedowns or a grappling move that is intended for self defence. That's different from the idea I think you have of what we are discussing. We aren't talking about doing ground work in Wado.


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## Sojobo (Jun 10, 2012)

Not really,

It's the view held, and understood by most main stream Wado-ka today.

I have no axe to grind about Bunkai, ground work, Knife defense or defense against a piece of fruit - in Karate Kata...

It&#8217;s just that it&#8217;s not there in Wado Kata - never has been - and it&#8217;s a waste of your time (as a Wadoka) trying to find it. imo.

Best to look at the principles of movement you are learning from them - then combining that with the Wado's paired kata...

At that point you have half a chance of connecting the dots.

Sojobo


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## Makalakumu (Jun 10, 2012)

Okinawan Karate was influenced by the native Tegumi and Japanese Jujutsu.  Many of the old masters wrote about Tegumi matches and talked about it's relationship to kata and many of the old masters were also trained in Jigen Ryu, a school of swordsmanship known for it's powerful first strike.  Jigen Ryu has empty hand lists that show what a warrior would do when disarmed and some of these techniques can be found in karate kata.


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## Sojobo (Jun 10, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> ...many of the old masters were also trained in Jigen Ryu, a school of swordsmanship known for it's powerful first strike.



How acurate is that statement?

It is my understanding that very few (maybe some from the privileged classes) were actually exposed to Jigen-ryu - and then - how much would they have learnt?

Sojobo


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## Makalakumu (Jun 10, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> How acurate is that statement?
> 
> It is my understanding that very few (maybe some from the privileged classes) were actually exposed to Jigen-ryu - and then - how much would they have learnt?
> 
> Sojobo



In Patrick McCarthy's edition of the Bubishi, he shares an interview with the head of the Jigen Ryu School.  In that interview, they discuss records of who was awarded Menkyo Kaiden in the style on Okinawa and how much Okinawan martial arts may have influenced Jigen Ryu.  It was related that many Okinawans were trained in the style, including Matsumura and Asato, two of Funakoshi's direct teachers.  Therefore, Jigen Ryu techniques at least have the potential to be found in the kata they passed down.


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## Tez3 (Jun 10, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> Not really,
> 
> It's the view held, and understood by most main stream Wado-ka today.
> 
> ...




it's a good job then that I'm a Tang Soo Do'st and MMA person then!


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## Sojobo (Jun 10, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> In Patrick McCarthy's edition of the Bubishi, he shares an interview with the head of the Jigen Ryu School.  In that interview, they discuss records of who was awarded Menkyo Kaiden in the style on Okinawa and how much Okinawan martial arts may have influenced Jigen Ryu.  It was related that many Okinawans were trained in the style, including Matsumura and Asato, two of Funakoshi's direct teachers.  Therefore, Jigen Ryu techniques at least have the potential to be found in the kata they passed down.



Did you ever attend this guys lecture?

Do you know this Guy?

He makes a lot of sense 






Sojobo


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## Makalakumu (Jun 10, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> Did you ever attend this guys lecture?
> 
> Do you know this Guy?
> 
> ...



I know Charles Goodin and have attended several of his lectures. I was there when they dedicated the Hawaii Karate Library up at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. Here is an article that he wrote on the topic we're discussing.

http://seinenkai.com/art-bunkai.html



> After a few years of training, most Karate student will "know" several  kata.  Of course, there is a world of difference between being able to  merely perform the movements of the kata and truly understanding them.   Bunkai literally means to "separate" or "break down" ("bun") and  "understand" ("kai").  Kata bunkai means to break down the movements of  the kata and study their practical applications.
> 
> 
> Is bunkai really necessary?  If one studies Karate simply to get in  shape or perform kata in tournaments, bunkai may seem like a waste of  time.  What counts is looking good (as defined by the rules of the  competition), particularly to the judges and the crowd.
> ...



The rest of the article is based off of his deep research into the subject.  I especially liked this part.



> *Grappling.*  Here is where it gets really interesting.  When the  movements of kata were made public, the first thing to go was the  grappling element.  This seems to be particularly true in Shorin-Ryu  based systems.  Goju-Ryu evolved later and grappling seems to have not  been suppressed in the kata.
> 
> 
> However, in many systems, joint manipulation and grappling techniques  were either eliminated or changed into blocks.  Thus, a block might not  only also be a punch -- it might also be a joint lock or throw.  In  fact, for many Karate teachers, these are the more likely applications.   But if you execute a block with the body dynamics for a block, it might  not work properly as a throw.  Blocks work by stopping or redirecting  an attack.  Throws involve a completely different process of  intercepting and redirecting the attacker's momentum.  You have to know  what you are doing (blocking or throwing) in order to do it properly.
> ...


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## Tez3 (Jun 10, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> Not really,
> 
> It's the view held, and understood by most main stream Wado-ka today.
> 
> ...



I have no head for what I think of as the airy fairy arguments in martial arts so I've put this question to greater martial arts minds than mine.

However I'm curious as to your wording, you say you have no axe to grind about Bunkai etc in *karate* kata but say it's not in Wado Ryu, so what then do you class Wado Ryu as if not karate?


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## K-man (Jun 10, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> _The kata can easily work with grappling. The reason I said "developing something more suited to ground work", is because a lot of the kata portrays very nasty, or lethal, techniques. Strikes with the point of the elbow, eye gouges, throat grabs, neck cranks, groin grabs, etc are all frowned upon in MMA competition. If you were to use kata for MMA (and I'm not suggesting you would) then the rules would have to be taken into account. But, on the other hand, I don't believe kata was intended for use against trained martial artists either._
> 
> Can it?
> 
> ...


I have been learning Aikido for the past six years and I don't have to 'shoehorn' any of it into my karate kata. It is all there already. I just never recognised it.  Now that I have reasonable proficiency in Aikido, I can teach the grappling techniques contained in the kata to my guys.



> Jigoro Kano (the founder of Judo) began visiting Okinawa in 1927, and was so impressed with Sensei Miyagi&#8217;s toudijutsu. Kano was particularly impressed with grappling, locking and throwing techniques and the correct use of breathing. Kano invited him, along with Mabuni, to Japan in 1930 and 1932 to demonstrate at several tournaments.


What most people don't seem to understand, due to their exposure to 'sport karate', is the close nature of karate. As the Okinawan guys say, "once you engage, you don't disengage until it's over". That means keeping control by restricting your opponent's movements either by trapping or grabbing. 

Now, back to your question. If in grappling I used my my elbow, as shown in the kata, in a MMA tournament, I would be disqualified. That is because I would be using the point of the elbow. Therefore the kata would not be able to be used without modification. Secondly, kata was not designed for use against trained martial artists. So for these two reasons, I wouldn't be wasting my time trying to modify it. I actually said in my post I wouldn't suggest anyone try to use kata in MMA competition.

Your observation, "I'd say an easier way to learn how to grapple was to learn grappling", is quite right. A lot of my mates teach BJJ. I don't bother because I have no desire, or at my age there is no likelihood, to compete in grappling competition. Also, all of the guys I know who have trained BJJ for some time at a high level, have significant joint damage.
In the unlikely event I am engaged in a street altercation, and the even less likely chance it goes to the ground, I am confident in my ability to use the nasty techniques, I am intimately acquainted with, to inflict enough pain and or damage, for me to prevail.

*Makalakumu*'s post #65 accurately describes what karate used to be and some of us are teaching those methods. 

This thread is actually about Iain Abernethy ,  and on the table beside me is his book, "Understanding Kata & Bunkai - Karate's Grappling Methods".  If you are right in your thoughts on kata, it must be a book about nothing!   :asian:


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## Makalakumu (Jun 10, 2012)

K-man said:


> *Makalakumu*'s post #65 accurately describes what karate used to be and some of us are teaching those methods.
> 
> This thread is actually about Iain Abernethy ,  and on the table beside me is his book, "Understanding Kata & Bunkai - Karate's Grappling Methods".  If you are right in your thoughts on kata, it must be a book about nothing!   :asian:



Thanks!  I've been interested in this topic for years how and it actually is the subject of a book that I wrote.  I don't have Iain's book and would love it if you would elaborate on the underlined.


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## rickster (Jun 10, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Rickster. You're wrong. Deal with it.
> 
> The original term used on Okinawa was dominantly "Te" &#25163; (pronounced "ti/di" in the native dialect), sometimes "Tode/Todei". The first character, "to", is written with this character: &#21776;. That character is also pronounced "kara", and is a reference to Tang China. In other words, the term "karate" and "tode" are the same thing, written with the same characters, and with the same meaning: &#21776;&#25163;, "kara te", meaning "China (Tang Dynasty) Hand". In 1936 there was a meeting of some of the most dominant names in karate about what they were going to call their art for the Japanese people, and (from memory) Chojun Miyagi mentioned that he'd been using the same phrase (karate), but with a different character for the first part, meaning "empty", making "karate" &#31354;&#25163;.
> 
> ...



Uh, I did not mention any dates.

And oh, it was about getting rid of the Chinese association.

More like having to make it appear to be distinctively Japanese


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## Makalakumu (Jun 10, 2012)

rickster said:


> Uh, I did not mention any dates.
> 
> And oh, it was about getting rid of the Chinese association.
> 
> More like having to make it appear to be distinctively Japanese



The point is that the characters for "Empty" and "Tang" can both be pronounced as "Kara".


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## K-man (Jun 10, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Thanks!  I've been interested in this topic for years how and it actually is the subject of a book that I wrote.  I don't have Iain's book and would love it if you would elaborate on the underlined.





> If you are right in your thoughts on kata, it must be a book about nothing! :asian:


Ah! I can see some confusion.  By "you" I was addressing *Sojobo*.  I referred to your post as just what karate should be.

So, my comment was a bit of obtuse logic. Iain's book is on grappling in the kata .. some people claim there is no grappling in kata .. therefore, for them, the content of Iain's book must be about nothing. 

Here is the book I am referring to. You can peruse some of the content. The 'Introduction' says much of what we are discussing, in the first paragraph.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Kata-Bunkai-Karates-Grappling/dp/8172454260/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

And again, thank you (*Makalakumu* this time) for your great reference in #65.    :asian:


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## Tez3 (Jun 11, 2012)

Sojobo, I now have your answer to Bunkai in Wado Ryu, thanks as I said to greater minds themselves, in fact the person named in the OP.

There *is* Bunkai in Wado Ryu katas but the fact is they aren't Wado Ryu katas but katas practicised by Wadoka, the katas came long before Ohtsuka formed Wado Ryu and he would have been taught the Bunkai that is in them. It seems that Ohtsuka's karate teachers were clear that there were applications in these katas.  The Pinan series were by Itosu, Kushanku by Tode Sakagawa, Chinto was created by Soken Matsumura etc all with Bunkai in them. The katas were very little changed by Ohtsuka so the applications are still in there for those that want to see them. If you don't wish to train Bunkai it doesn't mean to say it's not there, just that you don't wish to train Bunkai. As Iain says you can't change things retrospectively, the katas were created with the applications in them, Ohtsuka took them over as they were so therefore there is applications in there. 

I will Pm you Iain's whole reply if you like?


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## Chris Parker (Jun 11, 2012)

rickster said:


> Uh, I did not mention any dates.
> 
> And oh, it was about getting rid of the Chinese association.
> 
> More like having to make it appear to be distinctively Japanese



Again, Rickster, you're wrong about pretty much everything here. "Getting rid of the Chinese association" was far from the only reason, and the only attempt to make karate seem to be distinctively Japanese was for the Japanese forms that developed in the early-mid 20th Century. But then again, one could also point out systems such as Shorinji Kempo, which was also founded in the mid-20th Century... not a lot of avoiding naming Chinese influence there (if you aren't aware, "Shorinji Kempo" is basically the Japanese pronunciation of "Shaolin Chuan Fa").

But to illustrate what I mean when I say you've been wrong this whole time.... 



rickster said:


> Makalakumu said:
> 
> 
> > Kara Te = China Hand
> ...



So here, you missed the reference to the Okinawan form, which predates the Japanese naming convention. I've also demonstrated (with the actual kanji themselves) that "Kara" can be written meaning "China", as well as "Te" meaning "hand". The use of the term "Tang" Te is just plain wrong. You've taken the Westernized form of the Chinese name for one of their early dynasties, and combined it with the Japanese term for "hand", missing that the Japanese term for the Chinese dynasty is "Kara" or "To", depending on how you read it. So, no.



rickster said:


> Makalakumu said:
> 
> 
> > Kara can mean Empty or Tang, which refers to China.
> ...



"Kara" (&#21776 specifically refers to China. You really don't have any argument against this. The evidence is that, well, it does. End of story, really.



rickster said:


> You have taken this out of context.
> 
> Kara and Te, is Japanese reference
> 
> Tang/Tode/Tuti, is the Chinese Reference



No. Wrong. Kara and Te are Japanese terms, the first can be (and was originally) written meaning "China, Tang Dynasty", later written to mean "empty". Tang is a Western reference to the Chinese dynasty/time period, not Chinese, or Japanese. Tode is an alternate Japanese reading of "Karate", with "kara" meaning "China". "Tuti" is the Okinawan pronunciation. The idea of any of them being a "Chinese reference" or a "Japanese reference" is just odd.



rickster said:


> Saying Karate is reference per translation to Chinese Hand is like incorrectly saying if you speak Chinese, you can speak Japanese because they are both from Asia.



Huh? I didn't address this earlier because, bluntly, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.



rickster said:


> Now, in actual distinction, Tode/Tang originally had translated as Chinese Hand, but via the Japanese occupation they changed it to mean "Kara-Te, Empty Hand", as this was a attempt for the Japanese to get rid of the Chinese association



And here's where you dealt with dates (referencing the Japanese Occupation).

For your information, though, here's an article on the meeting where the name was discussed. You may note persons such as Chojun Miyagi stating that yes, he used the term "Chinese Hand": http://www.isshinryu.nl/history/1936meeting.html

Now, now that that's dealt with, perchance you could answer this question from earlier? 



Chris Parker said:


> So, if you would be so kind, before we explain it to you, can you tell us what you understand kata to be, so we can see where you need correction?


----------



## TimoS (Jun 11, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Jigen Ryu has empty hand lists that show what a warrior would do when disarmed and some of these techniques can be found in karate kata.



So? Finding some things that are similar in two totally unrelated arts is not proof that one influenced the other. I can find some things in Tang Lang Kung-fu that are done almost exactly the same way that we do them in karate. All that proves is that there are only so many ways you can manipulate an opponent. Of course e.g. Jigen ryu _may_ have influenced karate, but there isn't really any evidence of that, one way or another. 


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TimoS (Jun 11, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Matsumura and Asato, two of Funakoshi's direct teachers.


Funakoshi learned from Itosu and Azato, NOT Matsumura 


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TimoS (Jun 11, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Again, Rickster, you're wrong about pretty much everything here. "Getting rid of the Chinese association" was far from the only reason


True. Actually the first written evidence of karate using the current kanji is already from 190x (1906, if my memory serves me correctly) in the book by Hanashiro Chomo. To me, this just goes to show that both meanings were probably quite widely used by then. 



---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rickster (Jun 11, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> The point is that the characters for "Empty" and "Tang" can both be pronounced as "Kara".



However, the kanji is different, and why?

Many Karateka and/or Japanese Karate instructors of the distant past, did not want it to be associated with China.

From PR reasons (perhaps the rivalry with China) Japan had chose to use Empty


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## rickster (Jun 11, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Again, Rickster, you're wrong about pretty much everything here. "Getting rid of the Chinese association" was far from the only reason, and the only attempt to make karate seem to be distinctively Japanese was for the Japanese forms that developed in the early-mid 20th Century. But then again, one could also point out systems such as Shorinji Kempo, which was also founded in the mid-20th Century... not a lot of avoiding naming Chinese influence there (if you aren't aware, "Shorinji Kempo" is basically the Japanese pronunciation of "Shaolin Chuan Fa").
> 
> But to illustrate what I mean when I say you've been wrong this whole time....
> 
> ...



I am aware of Shorinji Kempo, Shorin ryu.. (as well as the swastika symbol used) not only making these styles associated with China, but going back to Indian (Indian) roots (with the symbol)

That said, some Karate styles had paid lineage-homeage to their roots.

I did not or never said "ALL" Japanese Karate systems kept a dis-association with China


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## Sojobo (Jun 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> you say you have no axe to grindabout Bunkai etc in *karate* kata but say it's not inWado Ryu, so what then do you class Wado Ryu as if not karate?



Tez,

As explained in my PM, I am not suggesting that the practice of Bunkai withinKarate Kata is in anyway wrong or misguided, my point is that as a system -Wado-ryu does not utilise the process of Bunkai. 

This statement is not meant to be glib, it is borne out over 25 years trainingin mainstream Japanese Wado and I can vouch for the fact that it doesn't formpart of its pedagogy.

Why? Maybe Otsuka never learnt bunkai? More probable that he saw the"omote" of the kata and realised that it would be more useful as vehicleto assist in the transmission of key principles within in his vision ofWado-ryu as a whole? 

As you said in a previous post, Wado has a lot of depth. You can't take part ofit away and expect it still to work like Wado.

Does Wado have take downs, arm bars, throws, locks and holds etc.? It sure doesa plenty!!! However the methodology involved in realising this does not involve the process of disassembling solo kata to a point where it moves away from the external form of the Kata. This is where our paired kata (Kihon Kumite, Idori,Tanto-dori etc.) come in to play.

This brings me to your next question&#8230; What is Wado Ryu?

Well, many (if not most) of the paired kata mentioned above &#8211; are pretty much straight out of Shindo Yoshin Ryu which is not surprising considering Otsuka&#8217;s pedigree in it.

So really I suppose what I mean to say about the subject of the thread is that although Iain may be utilising Wado kata he is not &#8220;doing&#8221; Wado-ryu imo.

To be fair to him though &#8211; he is not saying that he is.

Sojobo


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## rickster (Jun 11, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Again,
> 
> 
> No. Wrong. *Kara and Te are Japanese terms*, the first can be (and was originally) written meaning "China, Tang Dynasty", later written to mean "empty". Tang is a Western reference to the Chinese dynasty/time period, not Chinese, or Japanese. Tode is an alternate Japanese reading of "Karate", with "kara" meaning "China". "Tuti" is the Okinawan pronunciation. The idea of any of them being a "Chinese reference" or a "Japanese reference" is just odd.



**BOLD** you just proved my point...these are Japanese terms/reference...Badda Bing!

*underline* you proved by point again that they change it to mean empty....why?-to not associate it with China....Badda Bing!


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## Tez3 (Jun 11, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> Tez,
> 
> As explained in my PM, I am not suggesting that the practice of Bunkai withinKarate Kata is in anyway wrong or misguided, my point is that as a system -Wado-ryu does not utilise the process of Bunkai.
> 
> ...




To be honest I'm now interested in carrying on this conversation as you have in your PM said that we are just taking pops at each other and I'm disrespecting Iain.

Your non use of Bunkai is fine but there's still a good many instructors and students who do use Bunkai in Wado Ryu. To not use Bunkai is different from saying it's not there. 

You've missed my point when I asked you what Wado is, you stated Bunkai is fine in karate, but not Wado Ryu hence you are saying Wado Ryu isn't karate.

Anyway, as my points are considered being argumentative rather than searching for information, I'll leave the thread to your greater wisdom, I'm sorry that all I have learned is that so many people are considered 'wrong'.


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## Sojobo (Jun 11, 2012)

Erm Tez,

Who is disrespecting Iain?

I don't think I have said anything disrespectful - if I have I apologise.


Again I reiterate - I have no problem with what Iain is doing (I think its good), but the process of Bunkai isn't practiced in mainstream Wado groups.


I've given you the why's and wherefores as I understand it.

Sojobo


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## Sojobo (Jun 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> .. I'll leave the thread to your greater wisdom, I'm sorry that all I have learned is that so many people are considered 'wrong'.



Come on Tez... no need for that, is there?

Sojobo


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## Tez3 (Jun 11, 2012)

Sojobo, you said it was disappointing I went to others to 'reinforce my view', the thing is I don't have a view, I went 'to other's with greater knowledge than mine to find an explanation as it's puzzling to me to have been taught Bunkai in Wado and for you to say there is none in it. I was taught Bunkai by my first Wado Ryu instructors over 20 years ago, the chief instructor Patrick Scantlebury started training in 1971 in Wado Ryu under Tatsuo Suzuki then as an instructor under Toru Tokamizowa, the whole organisation does Bunkai in Wado Ryu, you are saying there is no Bunkai in Wado, yet some obviously think there is. The fact you don't use it is different from there being none in it.


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## Sojobo (Jun 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Sojobo, you said it was disappointing I went to others to 'reinforce my view', the thing is I don't have a view, I went 'to other's with greater knowledge than mine to find an explanation as it's puzzling to me to have been taught Bunkai in Wado and for you to say there is none in it. I was taught Bunkai by my first Wado Ryu instructors over 20 years ago, the chief instructor Patrick Scantlebury started training in 1971 in Wado Ryu under Tatsuo Suzuki then as an instructor under Toru Tokamizowa, the whole organisation does Bunkai in Wado Ryu, you are saying there is no Bunkai in Wado, yet some obviously think there is. The fact you don't use it is different from there being none in it.



And it was disappointing Tez, 

You took my comments and emailed them to Iain - you then pasted his reply.

If I wanted discussion with Ian on the matter (and we have had them in the past) I would have contacted him directly.

The whole point of discussion forums like this is for us to share our own personal views and experiences - not others. 

Either way - I think this discussion has well and truly "jumped the shark", I've given you my experiences and evidenced that they are not privately held views.

I wish you luck with your training Tez.

Sojobo.


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## TimoS (Jun 11, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> Maybe Otsuka never learnt bunkai?



I have read part of an interview (?) of his grandson and at least according to him, Otsuka wasn't taught any applications to kata. I'll ask if the interview and/or quote is somewhere online.


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## harlan (Jun 11, 2012)

If anyone is interested, the topic has been cross-posted at Ian's forum and is currently under discussion. 

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/no-bunkai-wado-ryu-karate


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## Sojobo (Jun 11, 2012)

harlan said:


> If anyone is interested, the topic has been cross-posted at Ian's forum and is currently under discussion.
> 
> http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/no-bunkai-wado-ryu-karate



Sleves rolled up... I may be some time

Sojobo


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## Sojobo (Jun 11, 2012)

And... done.

Sojobo


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2012)

Are you freakin' kidding me?



rickster said:


> However, the kanji is different, and why?
> 
> Many Karateka and/or Japanese Karate instructors of the distant past, did not want it to be associated with China.
> 
> From PR reasons (perhaps the rivalry with China) Japan had chose to use &#8220;Empty&#8217;



Read the article I linked. Here it is again, for you: http://www.isshinryu.nl/history/1936meeting.html



rickster said:


> I am aware of Shorinji Kempo, Shorin ryu.. (as well as the swastika symbol used) not only making these styles associated with China, but going back to Indian (Indian) roots (with the symbol)
> 
> That said, some Karate styles had paid lineage-homeage to their roots.
> 
> I did not or never said "ALL" Japanese Karate systems kept a dis-association with China



Well, you seem to have missed the point of pretty much everything I said there... 



rickster said:


> **BOLD** you just proved my point...these are Japanese terms/reference...Badda Bing!
> 
> *underline* you proved by point again that they change it to mean empty....why?-to not associate it with China....Badda Bing!



What the hell, man? Every term that's been used (other than your insistence of "Tang") have been Japanese! And this started when Makalakumu gave the original term, referencing the Okinawan form, and the Chinese influence on Okinawan arts! You have been completely and singularly wrong for this entire thread, and no, the bold and the underlined do not support your point, as your point is beside what is stated there. 

Give it up, yeah?


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## K-man (Jun 12, 2012)

harlan said:


> If anyone is interested, the topic has been cross-posted at Ian's forum and is currently under discussion.
> 
> http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/no-bunkai-wado-ryu-karate


And to summarise Iain's reply, Wado did not compose their own kata. They brought it in from elsewhere.  The fact that 'maybe' most Wado schools don't teach bunkai to those katas doesn't mean the bunkai is not there, inherent in the kata.  It is there if you wish to go looking, but if you just want kata for competition or exercise, that's fine too.       :asian:


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## Sojobo (Jun 12, 2012)

K-man said:


> And to summarise Iain's reply, Wado did not compose their own kata. They brought it in from elsewhere.  The fact that 'maybe' most Wado schools don't teach bunkai to those katas doesn't mean the bunkai is not there, inherent in the kata.  It is there if you wish to go looking, but if you just want kata for competition or exercise, that's fine too.       :asian:



And to summarise my response - 

I am not saying that in the Kata where Wado kata originated from Bunkai isn't there? I am saying that Wado, as a school, traditionally do not utilise the process of bunkai within its structure.

Sojobo


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## K-man (Jun 12, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> And to summarise my response -
> 
> I am not saying that in the Kata where Wado kata originated from Bunkai isn't there? I am saying that Wado, as a school, traditionally do not utilise the process of bunkai within its structure.
> 
> Sojobo


And, isn't that exactly what I posted?  Some Wado schools teach bunkai and some don't. Yours doesn't, end of story.      :asian:


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## Makalakumu (Jun 12, 2012)

TimoS said:


> Funakoshi learned from Itosu and Azato, NOT Matsumura
> 
> 
> ---
> ...



Was Asato teaching for Matsumura 100% of the time, or did the old man come out to check on things?  I've seen it claimed that Funakoshi was instructed by Matsumura as well.  Do you have a reference that debunks this?


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## Makalakumu (Jun 12, 2012)

TimoS said:


> So? Finding some things that are similar in two totally unrelated arts is not proof that one influenced the other. I can find some things in Tang Lang Kung-fu that are done almost exactly the same way that we do them in karate. All that proves is that there are only so many ways you can manipulate an opponent. Of course e.g. Jigen ryu _may_ have influenced karate, but there isn't really any evidence of that, one way or another.
> 
> 
> ---
> ...



If it is shown that the people who created the kata were awarded Menkyo Kaiden in Jigen Ryu and some the techniques in the kata resemble sets on Jigen Ryu's empty hand lists, wouldn't that provide support to the thesis that Jigen Ryu may have influenced karate?  If the head of the current Jigen Ryu at the time of Mr. McCarthy's interview states that both arts may have influenced each other, doesn't that provide more support?  The only thing that is missing are written documents, which happens to be the problem with nearly all research into karate.  In the end, I think there is plenty of evidence to show that they are probably related, but there is no clear path to show the exact way they are related.  All resemblance could be a coincidence, but I doubt that.


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## TimoS (Jun 12, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> If it is shown that the people who created the kata were awarded Menkyo Kaiden in Jigen Ryu


Yes, but here's the thing: for most kata, we don't know who created them. For example, in Seibukan we know that Ananku was created by Kyan sensei and Wanchin by Zenryo Shimabukuro sensei. The rest of our "core" kata, we don't know (at least I can't remember reading any uncontroversial evidence). Sure, there's theories and stories about them, but nobody really knows for sure

Edit: please note that I'm not saying that karate wasn't influenced by Jigen ryu and/or vice versa, I'm just saying that we don't know. Maybe it was, but to what extent? What was brought into karate? When? By who?


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TimoS (Jun 12, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Was Asato teaching for Matsumura 100% of the time, or did the old man come out to check on things?



To my understanding, Funakoshi himself in his books said that his teachers were Azato and Itosu, so you can't get much better source than that.


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tez3 (Jun 12, 2012)

To be honest, this is where my attention wanders off, no disrespect to anyone but my interest is in 'does this techniques' work rather than where does it come from. I know how important it is to some to have the history etc of such things but I have little interest in it. I know it makes it a better art for some if they have as the anticedants but for me the training, the 'working' of it is better.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2012)

K-man said:


> And to summarise Iain's reply, Wado did not compose their own kata. They brought it in from elsewhere.  The fact that 'maybe' most Wado schools don't teach bunkai to those katas doesn't mean the bunkai is not there, inherent in the kata.  It is there if you wish to go looking, but if you just want kata for competition or exercise, that's fine too.       :asian:





Sojobo said:


> And to summarise my response -
> 
> I am not saying that in the Kata where Wado kata originated from Bunkai isn't there? I am saying that Wado, as a school, traditionally do not utilise the process of bunkai within its structure.
> 
> Sojobo





K-man said:


> And, isn't that exactly what I posted?  Some Wado schools teach bunkai and some don't. Yours doesn't, end of story.      :asian:



Ah, guys... 

Look, to be honest, I'd say you're both right... the difference really seems to be in the usage of terminology. And in that regard, I'd come down on Gary's side.

The big question seems to be the exact definition of "Bunkai". The common interpretation is that it's simply the application of the movements found in the kata, however that's not really what it means (as a process). Bunkai is the concept of taking the kata to pieces to discover the "hidden" aspects to the movements, the applications that aren't readily apparent (a block not being a block, but a joint lock or throw, for instance). The more "apparent" applications (a block is a block) are simply the applications, or explanations of the kata, which is terms Kaisetsu. As Wado Ryu has no real need of "hidden" grappling actions, being derived from Shotokan/Shorin Ryu karate and Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, the kata are explained by way of Kaisetsu, not Bunkai.

The problem is when the term Bunkai is used as a catch all for all applications from kata, which is I believe where the confusion is coming from. On the other forum, a member (Andy R) displayed this usage, when he asked his instructor about Bunkai in Wado, then questioned the instructor when an explanation of an action in a kata was mentioned. The instructor was displaying Kaisetsu, not Bunkai, which I believe is Gary's point.

Now, that isn't to say that you can't apply Bunkai (as it properly is) to the kata from Wado Ryu, there are certainly people who do so (Iain being one of them), but that isn't the same as there being Bunkai in Wado, just that some instructors use it.

So, in essence, Wado Ryu does not utilise Bunkai, as the term is properly used (but some instructors do), but there is Bunkai (in the common misinterpretation of the concept, meaning simply explanations and applications of the movements) taught.

Is that what we're all saying?


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## Tez3 (Jun 12, 2012)

Chris I think it's langauge that has been the problem all along, it was misunderstood when we said that there are grappling tecnhiques in the kata as us saying we are learning grappling by doing kata, it's been misunderstandings all along including it being thought I was looking to have others bolster my arguments when in fact I don't have any. For me it was simple, I'd been taught that there are techniques in kata which makes it more than just dancing for health or whatever some say it is, then I was told no, there is no techniques in Wado kata that's dealt with in other training used in that style.

If I turned round and said well all my instructors must have been rubbish then because they taught us the Bunkai that was passed on from _their_ instructors who were trained by the founder and there's not supposed to be any Bunkai in it, what sort of person would I then be? To me the _effectiveness_ of the techniques is what counts not the terminology not even it's history. If I'm faced by someone who is resisting me or who is threatening myself and/or colleagues I don't want to have to quote martial arts history at them, I'll save that for the journey to the nick!


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2012)

But how are you defining Bunkai then?


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## Tez3 (Jun 12, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> But how are you defining Bunkai then?




Whether the technique from the kata KOs you and/or incapacitates you or just a pretty 'cool' move in the dojo!  The former is Bunkai and the second is not. :ultracool


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2012)

But that's not Bunkai, that's just a technique. Bunkai is the taking apart of the kata in order to find hidden applications, not just "well, this strike to this point is really effective". And I think that's been Gary's point.


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## rickster (Jun 12, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Give it up, yeah?



Nope. Do you deny that the re-wording, reference, or term was changes to be not associated with China?

And meh, upon a scant few that held onto its "ties"


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2012)

You said "Karate" never meant "China Hand". You were wrong. You said that "Kara Te" was a reference to Japan, and "Tode" (and, for some as yet unexplained reason, Tang) were references to China, when "Karate" was a reference to China (in Japanese). You have been corrected on the kanji, terminology, dates, reasons, and more, yet you still argue. I really don't know how you can maintain any semblance of thinking you're right here.


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## rickster (Jun 12, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> You said "Karate" never meant "China Hand". You were wrong. You said that "Kara Te" was a reference to Japan, and "Tode" (and, for some as yet unexplained reason, Tang) were references to China, when "Karate" was a reference to China (in Japanese). You have been corrected on the kanji, terminology, dates, reasons, and more, yet you still argue. I really don't know how you can maintain any semblance of thinking you're right here.



Do you deny that the re-wording, reference, or term was changes to be not associated with China?

Can you absoultely state this as a non-possibility?


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## rickster (Jun 12, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> No. Wrong. Kara and Te are Japanese terms,,,,,,


 
_You again proved by point;_

_Kara and Te, is Japanese reference_


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2012)

rickster said:


> Do you deny that the re-wording, reference, or term was changes to be not associated with China?
> 
> Can you absoultely state this as a non-possibility?



If you'd read the article I linked for you (twice!), you'd see that it was more to do with not having any objections, and to differentiate between Okinawan and Japanese forms of karate, nothing to do with a disassociation from China. Hell, there was support for retaining the name "China Hand" as it was famous as that on Okinawa still.



rickster said:


> _You again proved by point;_
> 
> _Kara and Te, is Japanese reference_



Godsdammit, Rickster, no, it's not a Japanese reference, it's a Japanese term! And, depending on how it's written, it can be a direct reference to China! Which would make it a Chinese reference (in Japanese)!! I have no idea how you're managing to be this delusional!


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## rickster (Jun 12, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> If you'd read the article I linked for you (twice!), you'd see that it was more to do with not having any objections, and to differentiate between Okinawan and Japanese forms of karate, nothing to do with a disassociation from China. Hell, there was support for retaining the name "China Hand" as it was famous as that on Okinawa still.


I guess you were there. I guess you did not see how dominating Japan was to a point of trying to de-culturize any place they forced a take-over.

Besides that, their pride of trying to lay claim to something trying to be passed off being uniquely Japanese.






Chris Parker said:


> Godsdammit, Rickster, no, it's not a Japanese reference, it's a Japanese term! And, depending on how it's written, it can be a direct reference to China! Which would make it a Chinese reference (in Japanese)!! I have no idea how you're managing to be this delusional!



So a "term" cannot be a "reference"...hmmmnnnn


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## Sojobo (Jun 12, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> To be honest, this is where my attention wanders off, no disrespect to anyone but my interest is in 'does this techniques' work rather than where does it come from. I know how important it is to some to have the history etc of such things but I have little interest in it. I know it makes it a better art for some if they have as the anticedants but for me the training, the 'working' of it is better.



Hi Tez,

Personally, I think that understanding the history and traditions of your art is an important part of realising how and why the art works.

I expect my students to at least have an appreciation of this and my instructors (in both Wado-ryu and Koryu Bujutsu) expect the same from me.

I'm about to reply to Iain on his site and - at his request - I'm going to give him some more background on Wado-ryu, the part that Wado Kata play within its pedagogy and its connection to Shindo Yoshin ryu.

If you have the time, have a read - I think it will clear up a few things.

Sojobo


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## Tez3 (Jun 12, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> Hi Tez,
> 
> Personally, I think that understanding the history and traditions of your art is an important part of realising how and why the art works.
> 
> ...



I know a good amount of history of martial arts, what I don't go in for is the minutiae of it I'm afraid. I simply don't have the time, I work shifts, teach martial arts for four hours three nights a week if I can plus with the Olympics coming up I will be away for five weeks on deployment soon, I ref, corner and judge on MMA fights, as well as supporting my daughter's Cheer squad. There simply isn't enough time for me to go into the detail many do. I'm not ignorant of the history of Wado... and other styles, I also know some of that 'history' isn't, not with karate but with TSD etc being 2000 years old etc. We all have to cut our cloth according to what we have, I'm meeting myself coming back as it is. MT and Iain's site as well as his books, videos and the seminars I can get to have to comprise my training in traditional martial arts these days.


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## Tez3 (Jun 12, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> But that's not Bunkai, that's just a technique. Bunkai is the taking apart of the kata in order to find hidden applications, not just "well, this strike to this point is really effective". And I think that's been Gary's point.



I posted in jest but yes Bunkai as I understand it is the taking apart of the kata to find the techniques, that's what I was taught by my Wado instructors when I started 20 years ago. That's how I've always thought it was done until being told here there's no Bunkai _use_ in Wado.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 13, 2012)

rickster said:


> I guess you were there. I guess you did not see how dominating Japan was to a point of trying to de-culturize any place they forced a take-over.
> 
> Besides that, their pride of trying to lay claim to something trying to be passed off being uniquely Japanese.



Are you kidding me here?!?! Was I there? Seriously? Were the minutes of the actual meeting not enough for you?

After all, were you there? Or, more importantly, can you provide any evidence at all that supports your claims, aside from what you think the reasons were? Because so far, you've been proven wrong in every single aspect of this discussion.



rickster said:


> So a "term" cannot be a "reference"...hmmmnnnn



The words are Japanese, hence Japanese terms. They are not a reference to Japan. One of the Japanese words is a reference to China. I seriously can't believe you are being this thick-headed about this.



Tez3 said:


> I posted in jest but yes Bunkai as I understand it is the taking apart of the kata to find the techniques, that's what I was taught by my Wado instructors when I started 20 years ago. That's how I've always thought it was done until being told here there's no Bunkai _use_ in Wado.



Ah, that's better... Right, Tez. When you say that you "took the kata apart to find the techniques", were you looking at the individual actions/movements in order to understand them as they were presented (Kaisetsu), or were you looking at the movements to see alternate potential applications hidden within them (Bunkai)? I can certainly see the Kaisetsu approach being labeled as Bunkai, in fact, I think that'd be common, but that doesn't mean that they're the same thing.


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## TimoS (Jun 13, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Because so far, you've been proven wrong in every single aspect of this discussion.


I think this applies here:


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## Cayuga Karate (Jun 13, 2012)

Chris Parker wrote:



> Are you kidding me here?!?! Was I there? Seriously? Were the minutes of the actual meeting not enough for you?



Chris, 

I have read the minutes quite closely and I do not come away with your conclusion at all. I fully support Rickster's reading of history here. I do not believe the minutes, combined with a host of other historical issues, support your interpretation. I have little doubt that the term "empty" was imposed on the Okinawans at the 1936 meeting. It was indeed, somewhat of a face-saving meeting. The Okinawans were asked a bit about the history of their art. 

But the thought that this was some true collaboration, that the Okinawans really had any say in this decision, is, in my view, not really supported in the minutes.

I would be surprised if anyone would believe that if had the Okinawan masters said "no, we want to continue to call the art Toudi, and refuse to use the new kanji and call it karate," that this would have in any way been successful. 

It is my interpretation that the meeting was a mere formality, and that the decision to change the name was likely made long prior to the meeting. 

I would be happy to engage in a lengthier discussion of this. 

I fully acknowledge that this really does not pertain to anything meaningful in today's karate world. We are arguing over the historical semantics of a name change that began over a hundred years ago, and was completed 75 years ago. But I am very interested in this subject and would be quite happy to debate here the numerous factors that likely contributed to the name change. 

-Cayuga Karate


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## TimoS (Jun 13, 2012)

Cayuga Karate said:


> refuse to use the new kanji and call it karate,


New? Hardly. They were used already back in 1905 in Hanashiro Chomo's book "Karate Shoshu Hen", which means that they were probably used in that way previously, just not in writing that has survived to this day.



> Hanashiro was not only a pioneer in the school system, but he also pioneered          the use of the word "karate". In his August 1905 publication,          "Karate Shoshu Hen" (AKA "Karate Kumite"), the first          known use of the modern kanji was used.


From here


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## Chris Parker (Jun 13, 2012)

Cayuga Karate said:


> Chris Parker wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cool. Remember that the way this started here was that Rickster claimed that "Karate" had never meant "China Hand", and this has been a way of demonstrating (beyond what I felt was needed) that he was completely wrong.

But to get to your interpretation, the overall feel I get from the meetings minutes are that the art had been growing in popularity, but there was some confusion as to what it was, based on the name "China Hand". In other words, people thought it was a Chinese martial art, rather than an Okinawan one, so part of the reason for the name change was to alleviate this confusion. Another part of it was to try to begin a "unification" of karate, removing the separation between styles (Funakoshi, among others, was a supporter of the idea that there really aren't, or shouldn't be different karate systems, there should just be "karate"), and the Okinawan membership moved that the name change be taken on universally. The move away from a reference to China in the name wasn't anything to do with national pride, or shame, but more about the confusion the name was having. Even on Okinawa, Fukushima notes, the kanji "China Hand" make sense to those who already know what karate is, but not to others. It's also noted (by Shimabukuro) that the term "Tode" (which, really, is just an alternate pronunciation of the kanji that read "China Hand", as shown in an earlier post of mine) was used to show which of the arts were brought over from China, and "Te" was used to show the arts that developed on Okinawa. By that token, it's also more plausible that the name change was to show (again) a separation of origin, coming from either Okinawa, or newly developed in Japan, as opposed to China (again, nothing to do with shame of occupational action... knowing some of the stories that have come out of such events [meaning the occupation of Manchuria], such shame just wasn't as much of a factor).


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## Cayuga Karate (Jun 13, 2012)

Timo S wrote:



> New? Hardly. They were used already back in 1905 in Hanashiro Chomo's book "Karate Shoshu Hen", which means that they were probably used in that way previously, just not in writing that has survived to this day



So let's debate it then. 

First, My post clearly states: 



> We are arguing over the historical semantics of a name change that began over a hundred years ago, and was completed 75 years ago.



1905 is 107 years ago. This statement I wrote is an implicit reference to Hanashiro's text. Regarding my use of the term "new", I concede that the term "different" might have been clearer. However, regarding your statement "_which means that they were probably used in that way previously, just not in writing that has survived to this day_" I would be most interested if you had any further evidence, other than Hanashiro's text that the kanji for "empty" was common, as compared to the kanji for T'ang. For instance, Itosu ten lessons, published at the same time, use the kanji for T'ang. 

In contrast to your statement about the prevalence of the kanji for empty as far back as 1905, we can look to the 1936 meeting minutes themselves to shed light on this.  

Following are some statements from the 1936 meeting. I am particularly curious about your perspective on Miyagi's discussion of the controversial aspect of this name change. Why do you believe it was controversial?



> Chomo Hanashiro "In the old days, we, Okinawan people, used to call it "Toodii" or "Tode", not "Karate." We also called it just "Tii" or "Te." It means fighting with hands and fists."
> 
> Ota: We, too, called it "Toodii" or "Tode." ... Mr. Miyagi, do you use the word "Chinese Hand" for karate?
> 
> Chojun Miyagi: Yes, I use the Kanji "Chinese Hand" *as most people do so*. It has minor meaning. Those who want to learn karate from me come to my home and say "Please teach me Tii or Te." So I think people used to call "Tii" or "Te" for karate. I think "Karate" is good in the meaning of the word. As Mr. Shimabukuro said, the name "Jujutsu" was changed to "Judo." In China, in the old days, people called Hakuda or Baida for Chinese kungfu, Kenpo or Chuanfa (= Quanfa). Like those examples, names changes according to times. I think the name "Karate-Do" is better than just "Karate." However, I will reserve decision on this matter, as I think we should hear other people's opinions. *We had a controversy* on this matter at the meeting of Okinawa Branch of Dai Nippon Butokukai. *We shelved this controversial problem*. In the mean time, we, members of Okinawa Branch, use the name "Karate-Do" written in Kanji as "*The Way of Chinese Hand*." Shinkokai (= a karate promotion center) will be formed soon, so we would like to have a good name. [emphasis added throughout]



If the kanji for "empty" was in use since 1905, why would the name change have been considered controversial? 

But let's get back to Hanashiro's use of the kanji "empty" in 1905. I have an additional question for you. What does Hanashiro have in his background, that is quite different from most other karatemen of his day that would make him likely to consider this change back in 1905.

In other words, is there anything in Hanashiro's background that might lead him to use this term, one that may not have gained any significant usage within Okinawa, but was later adopted by Funakoshi in Tokyo?

- Cayuga Karate


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## TimoS (Jun 13, 2012)

Cayuga Karate said:


> I would be most interested if you had any further evidence


Well, I hardly can have evidence, when the oldest known historical evidence is the book. However, all I'm saying that since it was written in a book, it is quite likely that it was used in that context even before that. Can I prove it? No, of course I can't, but as you yourself highlighted, Miyagi sensei is saying that "most people" use the kanji for China. That already tells us that not everyone did. Why not? Who knows!


> In other words, is there anything in Hanashiro's background that might  lead him to use this term, one that may not have gained any significant  usage within Okinawa, but was later adopted by Funakoshi in Tokyo?


I wouldn't know. I haven't really read that much about Hanashiro Chomo.


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## Grenadier (Jun 13, 2012)

Cayuga Karate said:


> Timo S wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> So let's debate it then.



Debate is certainly encouraged, but this thread is for the purpose of discussing Abernathy's works.  If you wish to continue your debate, it's advisable to start a new thread.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 13, 2012)

There honestly isn't much to debate.  This aspect of the history of karate is clear.  The Kanji for Empty and Tang can both be pronounced as "Kara" and the Japanese eventually adopted the kanji for Empty.  At one point in time, karate used to be referred to as China Hand.  Why are people disputing this?


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## TimoS (Jun 13, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Why are people disputing this?


I haven't seen anyone disputing it. At least I'm not. All I'm saying is that both kanji were used in parallel for at least 30 years or so, probably longer.


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## Cayuga Karate (Jun 13, 2012)

Makalukumu wrote:



> There honestly isn't much to debate. This aspect of the history of karate is clear. The Kanji for Empty and Tang can both be pronounced as "Kara" and the Japanese eventually adopted the kanji for Empty. At one point in time, karate used to be referred to as China Hand. Why are people disputing this?



The question I have said I would debate is not whether it happened, or even when it happened, but rather why it happened.

And though many might believe this is irrelevant to their training today, I believe that the history of the arts should be debated because the history is not all that clear. 

Regarding the history of the role of Japanese influence on Okinawa, and karate, I think there is a great deal of misinformation and bad history out there. The history of karate, due to secrecy, and the destruction of Okinawan archives in WWII is very thin. There is not very much literature on the history.

So I believe it is within easy grasp of all of us, simply because so little exists. 

As karate transitioned from a secret art practiced by small groups in Okinawa, to a public art practiced not only in Okinawan public schools, but in Japanese colleges, and eventually high schools, there were changes to the art, and even the name.  

Many practicioners are very interested in what the art might have been, prior to these changes. What was the balance of kata practice, hojo undo, ti training, kobudo, prior to the modernization of karate?

What were the origins of these various training regimens. 

There is a wide diversity of opinion regarding these concepts, and much, in my view, is not supported by the historical record. And the various opinions on the name change, in my opinion, go right to the heart of some of these issues. 

So, in my view, it is a topic worthy of discussion.

-Cayuga Karate


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## Tez3 (Jun 13, 2012)

Cayuga Karate said:


> Makalukumu wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But not on this thread because this is about Iain Abernethy's take on kata and 'to Bunkai or not' 

Could a thread split be possible as Mod's warning not listened to? Pretty please?


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## Grenadier (Jun 13, 2012)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS*

Like the lady said, let's get back to the original topic.  If you want to continue discussing nomenclature, start a new thread.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator


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## Black Belt Jedi (Jun 17, 2012)

Since 2008, I have been addicted to Iain Abernethy's works on Karate. I'm hoping when he is ever going to do a seminar near my location, and I am hoping that I can afford his seminar. I have read his ebook An Introduction of Applied Karate.


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