# Latigo y Daga !



## Cruentus

:whip1: 

How many of you here play with the whip or Latigo (Spanish), or with soft flexable weapons in your FMA?

I know that some of you Sayoc Kali players might! I play myself, and I find it very useful...

I included some info on the Whip (Latigo), Sjambok, and soft weapons in my Ezine on my site (click below). Pretty interesting!

What I really want to know is how many of you play with Latigo y Daga, or whip and Dagger? Let's discuss...what is your strategy, both technical and tactical? What is your favorite techniques?

Whip away... :ultracool  :whip:  :whip1:  :deadhorse


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## Feisty Mouse

I'd be interested to hear what others have to say.  I have not learned how to use a whip yet, but am very curious about flexible as well as long-range weapons.


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## Guro Harold

Tulisan said:
			
		

> :whip1:
> 
> How many of you here play with the whip or Latigo (Spanish), or with soft flexable weapons in your FMA?
> 
> I know that some of you Sayoc Kali players might! I play myself, and I find it very useful...
> 
> I included some info on the Whip (Latigo), Sjambok, and soft weapons in my Ezine on my site (click below). Pretty interesting!
> 
> What I really want to know is how many of you play with Latigo y Daga, or whip and Dagger? Let's discuss...what is your strategy, both technical and tactical? What is your favorite techniques?
> 
> Whip away... :ultracool  :whip:  :whip1:  :deadhorse



Good page, Mark Allen is a great source for whip materials and videos!

The Sjambok is looks similar to the bambo weapon Bruce Lee used to draw an X on Dan Inonsanto in the movie "Game of Death".


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## John J

I never use the whip. However, Professor Amante Marinas's art of Pananandata includes Latigo y Daga. One of his senior disciples, Spencer Gee used to demonstrate this combination quite often. The whip they used was much shorter (possibly 3-4ft) and more rigid. You may wanna check out any of his books and/or videos because I am sure it is covered.

John J


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## OULobo

One of my instructors is extremely good with a bandana. He trains some of us in how to use it well. I also work various flexible weapons in Mande Muda although it isn't FMA. I always wonder what is the actual realistic ability of a whip in a confrontation. If nothing else, it has style.


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## Cruentus

John J said:
			
		

> I never use the whip. However, Professor Amante Marinas's art of Pananandata includes Latigo y Daga. One of his senior disciples, Spencer Gee used to demonstrate this combination quite often. The whip they used was much shorter (possibly 3-4ft) and more rigid. You may wanna check out any of his books and/or videos because I am sure it is covered.
> 
> John J



Hi John...

If you have any links to video demo's or instructional info fpr Prof. Marina's, I'd be happy to link them to my e-zine!

Thank you!


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## Cruentus

OULobo said:
			
		

> One of my instructors is extremely good with a bandana. He trains some of us in how to use it well. I also work various flexible weapons in Mande Muda although it isn't FMA. I always wonder what is the actual realistic ability of a whip in a confrontation. If nothing else, it has style.



What does your instuctor do with the bandana? What is the structure of how he teaches it?

I use a balintawak structure, with modern arnis templates and concepts to teach soft weapons. I am just wondering what others are doing.  :ultracool


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## OULobo

Tulisan said:
			
		

> What does your instuctor do with the bandana? What is the structure of how he teaches it?
> 
> I use a balintawak structure, with modern arnis templates and concepts to teach soft weapons. I am just wondering what others are doing.  :ultracool



Nothing so formal. He grabs the folk he thinks are up to it and shows it. The basic idea is the various ways to use a bandana as a whip or "rattail". It is a novelty attack with little combat aps, besides suprise. I use it more as a party trick than anything else. If you do it right, you should completely fray the bandana tip in three strikes. The strike makes a very distinctive sound if you hit it right.


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## Flatlander

OULobo said:
			
		

> Nothing so formal. He grabs the folk he thinks are up to it and shows it. The basic idea is the various ways to use a bandana as a whip or "rattail". It is a novelty attack with little combat aps, besides suprise. I use it more as a party trick than anything else. If you do it right, you should completely fray the bandana tip in three strikes. The strike makes a very distinctive sound if you hit it right.


What about in terms of wrapping, trapping, locking, and choking?

I've trained in improvised flexible weapons such as shirt, belt, hanky, jacket, for these types of things.  Pretty neat stuff.  I haven't done a lot more than basic familiarization, but I can definitely see translations in trapping hands, and MA locking, passing and disarming motions.


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## Guro Harold

flatlander said:
			
		

> What about in terms of wrapping, trapping, locking, and choking?
> 
> I've trained in improvised flexible weapons such as shirt, belt, hanky, jacket, for these types of things.  Pretty neat stuff.  I haven't done a lot more than basic familiarization, but I can definitely see translations in trapping hands, and MA locking, passing and disarming motions.



Right!!!

You can use the whip for sarong applications as well!!!

Palusut


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## Hollywood1340

As a martial artist, one should not go without Anthony Delongis's "Mastering the Bullwhip" Vol. I and II. I have both and it's changed the way I view the whip. He uses it from a MARTIAL standpoint and it's great. 
Support your local Whipster!


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## Guro Harold

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> As a martial artist, one should not go without Anthony Delongis's "Mastering the Bullwhip" Vol. I and II. I have both and it's changed the way I view the whip. He uses it from a MARTIAL standpoint and it's great.
> Support your local Whipster!



Mr. Delongis was also the whip instructor for the Roc's movie, "The Rundown".


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## Hollywood1340

Palusut said:
			
		

> Mr. Delongis was also the whip instructor for the Roc's movie, "The Rundown".


And Batman Returns amoung others. For those who may be intrested, you cand find the whip from the recent Catwoman Movie at www.westernstageprops.com Alex Green, who was whip coach in Mask of Zorro, coached that one.


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## Cruentus

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> And Batman Returns amoung others. For those who may be intrested, you cand find the whip from the recent Catwoman Movie at www.westernstageprops.com Alex Green, who was whip coach in Mask of Zorro, coached that one.



I have a link to Greens site on my E-zine!  :ultracool


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## Cruentus

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I have a link to Greens site on my E-zine!  :ultracool



Whoops...check that! I guess I don't  

I may have to add more links today or tomorrow...  :uhyeah:


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## Guro Harold

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Whoops...check that! I guess I don't
> 
> I may have to add more links today or tomorrow...  :uhyeah:



Hi Paul,

I think that you have a link to Mark Allen's site who sells Alex Green's videos.

Palusut


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## OULobo

flatlander said:
			
		

> What about in terms of wrapping, trapping, locking, and choking?
> 
> I've trained in improvised flexible weapons such as shirt, belt, hanky, jacket, for these types of things.  Pretty neat stuff.  I haven't done a lot more than basic familiarization, but I can definitely see translations in trapping hands, and MA locking, passing and disarming motions.



Just like Palusut said, I use my Cipicut sarong work from Mande Muda for most of the wrapping, trapping, throwing and choking.


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## Flatlander

OULobo said:
			
		

> Cipicut sarong work from Mande Muda


Help a brother out here - this is greek to me.  Could you define some of this?  

Thanks,

Dan


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## OULobo

flatlander said:
			
		

> Help a brother out here - this is greek to me.  Could you define some of this?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dan



Sure, Cipicut is a sub system of Mande Muda Penjak Silat. Mande Muda is a mixed bag of martial arts systems from all over Indonesia. Cipicut is a system of flexible weapons techniques that is loosely based on the sarong or decorative skirt that men wear in Indonesia.


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## Flatlander

:rofl:  I see!  Well the act of exposing yourself ought to be sufficient to scare them off, then.


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## Cruentus

Palusut said:
			
		

> Hi Paul,
> 
> I think that you have a link to Mark Allen's site who sells Alex Green's videos.
> 
> Palusut



heh...that's what I did. Thanks Harold!  :ultracool 

Man...I knew I heard that name from somewhere.  :uhyeah:


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## OULobo

Well if the excessive size doesn't scare up, it will at least shock them to the point where I can use the distraction for the first strike. Not to mention my family style of Wip Wang Do.  :whip1: 

 :supcool:


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## Cruentus

OULobo said:
			
		

> Well if the excessive size doesn't scare up, it will at least shock them to the point where I can use the distraction for the first strike. Not to mention my family style of Wip Wang Do.  :whip1:
> 
> :supcool:



Well...

I am Irish, so I scare them with my "Ken Doll" like frontal smoothness.  :rofl: 

Man...I crack myself up.


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## arnisandyz

I play with the whip informally as well.  i'm not great at it but i can make it pop a couple times.  I would guess if I were to use a whip for fighting supported by a knife the strategy would be to use the long range of the whip and a barrage of strikes to keep the opponent at bay, using the knife as a backup support weapon should they close inside the range of the whip.

or use the knife to cut myself free when my whip wraps around my body :xtrmshock


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## Cruentus

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> I play with the whip informally as well.  i'm not great at it but i can make it pop a couple times.  I would guess if I were to use a whip for fighting supported by a knife the strategy would be to use the long range of the whip and a barrage of strikes to keep the opponent at bay, using the knife as a backup support weapon should they close inside the range of the whip.
> 
> or use the knife to cut myself free when my whip wraps around my body :xtrmshock



Thats basically what I do...the whip is used for striking long range, while my knife is used for thrusting where I see openings. The amount of damage that a good whip can deliver is pretty amazing...you can slice someone up with the thing. Add this with the capabilities of a good long knife, and your assailent will need a firearm at 50 feet or more to stop you. Also worth mentioning...if the person manages to close in past your whip...you can use the whip as a grappling or tieing up tool to aid your knife work.

Now, in regards to making the whip "pop"... I don't find it to be that important for fighting application. I think your ability to hit a target is more important, then the "pop" will come naturally once you have the skill to hit your target.

PAUL :supcool:


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## Feisty Mouse

I just got my first experience manipulating a whip last night - a 6-footer to start, but one of the gentlemen who trains with me, who is also an artist, is making whips now, and has a beautiful, slender 12-footer waiting for me as soon as I can pay him!  It looks amazing.  

As long as I could get that loop going in the whip, cracking it wasn't too bad.  I could keep it going in a counter-clockwise manner abover my head, and crack it like doing a #1 strike, and continue.  For the backhand, I could snap it and crack it - it felt like performing a redonda - but then I had to reverse direction. 

Anyone out there with general advice on whip manipulation?  I'm just getting started here.


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## Hollywood1340

Less is more. To qoute Anthony Delongis "It's going 700 miles and hour, you don't have to" Relate your martial arts to structure of the whip. Stances, body weigh shifts, foot work. And start working on targeting early on. Making it go bang is one thing, but making it go bang where you want it to go is another.


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## Feisty Mouse

OK, thanks.  How would you suggest practicing targeting?  i.e. knocking empty soda cans off of a fence, that kind of thing, or cutting sheets of paper?  I have to think of how to use this with another weapon as well, it's true.  I like the long-range and flexible weapons because sometimes they are just so different or unusual (to me).  Imagining how to manipulate a whip - esp. a long one, like the 12' one - and also a knife or stick is making me think hard.  Which is good.


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## Hollywood1340

Start by being able to place the crack in a box in the air. The move to trees. Trees are an exellent target. Leaves can be cut, or taken off, branches wrapped. It's suprising to see you started with a 6'. Shorter whips are harder to crack. You'll find the "chamber" time of your 12' to be much greater. Also a whip of that length is best for wrapping and single cracks. To do the multiple volleys and not get fatigued, I would say 10' is the maximum. 8' is a good medium. I wish you good luck in your whip work


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## Feisty Mouse

Thanks!  

The 12' was intended to be an 8', I think - apparently the leather was so thin and stretchy that it became a 12' whip.  It's very light, and so is the handle - he made it "elegant and ladylike" for me, so it shouldn't be fatiguing too much.  

The 6' was a bit less intimidating to start on - I had to remember to keep slowing down and taking it easy.  I caught myself on my elbow at one point - got a bit of a cut there, but nothing much.    And of course wore goggles, love the goggles.


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## pesilat

Tulisan said:
			
		

> :whip1:
> 
> How many of you here play with the whip or Latigo (Spanish), or with soft flexable weapons in your FMA?
> 
> I know that some of you Sayoc Kali players might! I play myself, and I find it very useful...
> 
> I included some info on the Whip (Latigo), Sjambok, and soft weapons in my Ezine on my site (click below). Pretty interesting!
> 
> What I really want to know is how many of you play with Latigo y Daga, or whip and Dagger? Let's discuss...what is your strategy, both technical and tactical? What is your favorite techniques?
> 
> Whip away... :ultracool  :whip:  :whip1:  :deadhorse



I enjoy playing with the whip - in fact, there's a vid clip of me doing just that on my website at http://impactacademy.com

I _love_ flexible weapons - i.e.: sarong work (or, more specifically, extrapolating sarong work into other things like jacket, shirt, etc.). My instructor has a very good DVD for sale on flexible weapons - available at http://asianfightingarts.com - and it shows a little of him using a whip in place of the sarong.

I've not played much with latigo y daga. But, based on what I have played with, I'll make an educated guess and say that the knife would either come into play as a projectile (especially if you've got multiple blades) or if someone closes inside the whip. Once they've closed inside, some of the espada y daga material would be available or the knife could just be used on its own - especially if you've got another opponent at a longer range that you can attack with the whip.

Mike


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## Cruentus

Hi all...

I just had the chance to view Jim Keatings Whip tape...awesome deomstration and instruction on  how to use the whip combatively. I highly recomend this video! Good instruction on Latigo Y Daga as well!


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## Cruentus

pesilat said:
			
		

> I enjoy playing with the whip - in fact, there's a vid clip of me doing just that on my website at http://impactacademy.com
> 
> I _love_ flexible weapons - i.e.: sarong work (or, more specifically, extrapolating sarong work into other things like jacket, shirt, etc.). My instructor has a very good DVD for sale on flexible weapons - available at http://asianfightingarts.com - and it shows a little of him using a whip in place of the sarong.
> 
> I've not played much with latigo y daga. But, based on what I have played with, I'll make an educated guess and say that the knife would either come into play as a projectile (especially if you've got multiple blades) or if someone closes inside the whip. Once they've closed inside, some of the espada y daga material would be available or the knife could just be used on its own - especially if you've got another opponent at a longer range that you can attack with the whip.
> 
> Mike



Mike...I like your clips....especially the whip one!  :ultracool


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## Feisty Mouse

How many of you train whip for a particular hand, or train both? Curious....

ETA: Mike, watched your whip and flexible clips - was that a 10-footer whip?  Amazing sound!


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## Hollywood1340

Better with my right, but train both. Nothing is more fun and beautiful then double long whip IMO


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## Cruentus

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> How many of you train whip for a particular hand, or train both? Curious....
> 
> ETA: Mike, watched your whip and flexible clips - was that a 10-footer whip?  Amazing sound!



I always train both hands, however...I am better with certian things on my right. Whipping is one of them!  :supcool:


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## Dagatan

Where do you guys get your whips? Whats a good starter size?


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## Sifu Barry Cuda

Hey guys, In terms of flexible weapons I teach the tabak{chucks} alone, double,with a dagger, and with a shield.The bandanna is also used holding an end in each hand and using it in close range to trap, lock and throw.Ive personally trained the short bullwhip but never taught it.BTW on of my favorite flexible weapons is the car antenna, Barry  www.combatartsusa.com


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## Hollywood1340

Dagatan said:
			
		

> Where do you guys get your whips? Whats a good starter size?


Always a good question! As I've said previously, www.westernstageprops.com can't be beat for a good start. Although a good fighting whip is much less lengthy then the ones offered here, starting around 8' or so will get the proper body mechanics down before you shorten it up. You have something traveling over 700 miles and hour and when you shorten the length....well everything happens a lot faster. 8' is considered to be a good all around length, for cracks, wraps and cuts. I've always favored the American Swivel Handle, and they have a great starter set including whip, safety goggles (A must) ear plugs and an instructional video. The latigo whips seem heavy at first, but they carry the weight well and you develop a feel for them easily. They are fairly docile and forgiving and a great way to start. Also check out www.bullwhips.org to find the Whip Enthusiasts site, and maybe people in your area to crack with. You can also find "The Bullwhip Book" there, a great resource for learning your basics. I would also HIGHLY recomend purchasing  "Mastering The Bullwhip" Vols.1&2 from Anthony Delongis www.delongis.com He teaches the mechanics of the whip from a _martial arts _perspective and his insight on how the body works in both the arts and the whip help make the transition an easy one. Hope I've been of some help 
Support your local whipster!


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## Dagatan

Thanks for the info Hollywood1340.


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## Feisty Mouse

You may also want to look around in your local area for any leather crafts people.  My whip was made by a local gentleman who also trains at my studio, and it is a lovely thing, well-made, and cheaper than if I got it online.

Another possible option.


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## Hollywood1340

FM: I want pictures!!!
Dag: You can call me James 
Support your local whipster!


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## Dagatan

What length does everybody use? I know Feisty mouse said she uses 12 and 6ft but what about everyone else? I'm wondering about the combative usage of certain lengths.

Hollywood1340/James,
Where'd you learn to do two whips similtaneously?

Can someone do a review of the James Keating tape?


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## Hollywood1340

I use 10' almost exlusivly. And using two long whips takes knowing the basics on both sides of the body. Then, you flow. As you bring one forward and crack to an overhead, the other is following it. It's really air traffic control to make sure they don't cross and tangle. I'm now teaching a Delongis derivitive (Sp) of the long whip. The focus is on proper body mechanics to achieve power and accuracy for film work. If you're ever in my area www.geocities.com/flyingcircusstuntteam


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## Cruentus

Dagatan said:
			
		

> What length does everybody use? I know Feisty mouse said she uses 12 and 6ft but what about everyone else? I'm wondering about the combative usage of certain lengths.
> 
> Hollywood1340/James,
> Where'd you learn to do two whips similtaneously?
> 
> Can someone do a review of the James Keating tape?



Sorry for the late reply....but as to that review, I would say that Mr. Keating whip tapes are a great buy if you want combative application of the whip, rather then just the trickster stuff...

Paul


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## lhommedieu

John J said:
			
		

> However, Professor Amante Marinas's art of Pananandata includes Latigo y Daga. One of his senior disciples, Spencer Gee used to demonstrate this combination quite often. The whip they used was much shorter (possibly 3-4ft) and more rigid. You may wanna check out any of his books and/or videos because I am sure it is covered.
> John J



Rob Mulligan (another senior student of Master Marinas) dropped by our seminar on Saturday with two of his students.  Jose Capitulo makes an excellent version of a thin, tapered, braided rope latigo that is used by calesa (horse buggy) drivers in the Philippines.  Jose carefully researched the method by which they are made and makes an authentic, high-quality version of these artifacts.  Whereas the traditional latigo is a braided rope with several knots at the end that is dipped in glue or lacquer to make it somewhat stiff (and is brushed lightly over the horse to encourage it to move faster), some of Jose's whips had small pieces of glass embedded in the knots to make it an, um, more dramatic piece of hardware.  Jose also uses a kind of marine epoxy to coat the rope instead of lacquer because it makes his latigos more capable of standing up to martial arts practice.  The use of a popper at the end of the whip is advisable because it will keep the knotted end from fraying with repeated use.  (Interestingly, one such popper is a 10-inch or so piece of Christmas ribbon braided into the end of the whip).  The butt end of the rope is embedded in a short piece of rattan, over which Jose has braided cross-hatched twine that his also sealed in some sort of glue or lacquer.  The manufacture of these whips is a dying art and may soon die out altogether; Jose is to be commended for learning how to make such an excellent product (Of course, this is the kind of guy who made an accurate and to-scale desktop model of a Roman catapult capable of hurling small stones across a large room in his spare time). When Rob and Jose gave a light-sparring demonstration during one of the breaks, Rob was able to crack the whip at will at a measured distance from Jose (he later volunteered that one of the primary techniques to use this whip in fighting was to snap the knotted end across the eyes of the opponent).  

Contact information for Jose:  

NEPHALIM1@netscape.net

Best,

Steve


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## Airyu@hotmail.com

Hello and Great Thread running!

When I train I work both left and right sides in various patterns. Last year I had the opportunity to try out a Kangaroo hide whip from Australia, and that was one of the best cracking whips I have tried. The longest lasting has been my Sayoc Kali, braided nylon 8ft which I use for most of my training now.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## Dagatan

Airyu,
Is there a paticular reason Sayoc prefers 8ft. or is that more your personal preference?


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## Hollywood1340

I'm told the kanga is nice, but havn't had the capital to invest yet. The latigo does hold up well though. Rain sleet snow and mud. I've done it all and it just keeps cracking.
Support your local whipster!


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## Airyu@hotmail.com

Hello Dagatan,

Sayoc Kali does not favor any particular size, most people have a 6 or 8 foot length. I happen to have an 8ft one, although I have used as long as a 12ft leather one when I was in Dallas in the early 90's, the 6ft ones are alot easier to get a cracking pattern running with as well. 

Have fun and wear eye protection when training!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## HenchmanNoNameTag

Feisty,

I don't know if any video instruction exists from Eustaquio "Snookie" Sanchez Jr. or not.  (The guy who'd snuff candles out on students' heads while blindfolded, using a whip.)

I remember seeing a demonstration that he did once.  No one controlled a whip like he could.  Simply impressive.

Hope that helps...if any....

- The Henchman


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## Feisty Mouse

HenchmanNoNameTag said:
			
		

> Feisty,
> 
> I don't know if any video instruction exists from Eustaquio "Snookie" Sanchez Jr. or not. (The guy who'd snuff candles out on students' heads while blindfolded, using a whip.)
> 
> I remember seeing a demonstration that he did once. No one controlled a whip like he could. Simply impressive.
> 
> Hope that helps...if any....
> 
> - The Henchman


Thanks!  I'm of course still looking for advice and pointers - the whip seems to be its own animal.


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## Bammx2

I must say the best demonstration I have evr seen was a lady who performed with the chinese acrobats of canton...she was goooood!


 I am very interested in learning more about the whip,unfortunately,there is no one around to teach it.
 Until I actually had first hand experience with a whip,I thought it was a load of bull and there was no way possible to do any damage with one(god bless hollywood)
Then.....
 I got hit across the face with an 8 footer.
jaw muscle to jaw muscle,right across the bridge of the nose...
THAT was the single most painful thing I have EVER experienced in all my life!
My god,the pain they can inflict!:erg:
 Some say you should wear face protection when learning,...brother,they ain't just whistlin dixie!

A vile of morphine close by wouldn't be such a bad idea either...


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## Airyu@hotmail.com

Oh that had to hurt!

A couple of years ago, I pulled the eight footer back and the popper caught me on the arm and left a great cut that looked like the Z for Zorro! Still have the small scar there.... so be careful during your practice!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## Drifter

Guro Steve (if you don't mind me calling you that),

 In the 3 of 9 DVD, there was a whip demonstration, and in it, if I recall correctly, Tuhon Sayoc pointed out that sometimes the whip would be used with a live blade attached to the end of it. How is this skill trained and practiced, or is it just done without the knife? 

 Thank you in advance!


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## arnisador

I've heard the same said ata Sayoc seminar, but haven't seen it demonstrated.


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## Airyu@hotmail.com

Hello Guys,


 Yes it can be done! As I have done it myself and taken many whacks from it!!! ( I subscribe to the rule that I have to be able to do it if I am going to teach it...)

What I did  was to attach at first, a small piece of aluminum to the end of the popper and worked with that to get used to the new dynamics of the whip. Next I added a trainer and firmly attached that, and went to town training. Remember this does change the dynamics of the return and send of the whip motion so be extra careful when you are training in this manner.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## san miguel eskrima

In regards to bullwhips, below is a picture of a typical San Miguel Eskrima bullwhip that we use: 








I have more information and images on my Special Weapons Page on my website:

www.sanmigueleskrima.com


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