# Who is against this?



## Touch Of Death (Mar 21, 2007)

I was Jamming to my new "Kings X" CD and I caught them bitching about paying for cable TV for prison inmates. Who is against this and why?
Sean


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I was Jamming to my new "Kings X" CD and I caught them bitching about paying for cable TV for prison inmates. Who is against this and why?
> Sean


 
You would be surprised as to what the inmates have available to them in prison.  A roof over their head, 3 meals a day, plus snacks and certain food items available from the prison, rec. time, both inside and out, and weight equipment.  The place where I worked had TVs in the day rooms that have cable.  No HBO, Showtime or anything like that, but they got more than the basic channels.  They also had the option of having a TV in their cell.  

So...as you can see, prison/jail is not what it should be IMHO.

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 21, 2007)

MJS said:


> You would be surprised as to what the inmates have available to them in prison. A roof over their head, 3 meals a day, plus snacks and certain food items available from the prison, rec. time, both inside and out, and weight equipment. The place where I worked had TVs in the day rooms that have cable. No HBO, Showtime or anything like that, but they got more than the basic channels. They also had the option of having a TV in their cell.
> 
> So...as you can see, prison/jail is not what it should be IMHO.
> 
> Mike


What should it be?


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> What should it be?


 
It should be a place to serve time for a crime, not a country club resort.  IMO, they should be in their cells for 22-23 hrs coming out for 1-2 only.  I don't believe that weight equipment is a necessity.  I don't believe that 4 hrs of rec time a day should be given either.  The TV should be in the day room, not in the cell.  

Does this sound harsh??  Of course.  With the way things are, they pretty much have all the comforts of home.  

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts as well Sean. 

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 21, 2007)

It is by far less expensive to entertain the inmates than to be mean to them. The number of inmates per guard increases when they have a release for their aggression. TV is not only the opiate of the masses, it is the opiate of the prison system. The alternative is a group of criminals with nothing better to do than figure out how to fight the system and the guards are there only direct access to the system. I've studied this so I'm ready for your response:mst: 
Sean


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## arnisador (Mar 21, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> It is by far less expensive to entertain the inmates than to be mean to them. The number of inmates per guard increases when they have a release for their aggression. TV is not only the opiate of the masses, it is the opiate of the prison system.



It all comes down to economics. Pay $50/month for cable or $2500/month for another guard. No one wants to see them coddled...but no one wants higher taxes either. There's no winning!


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> It is by far less expensive to entertain the inmates than to be mean to them. The number of inmates per guard increases when they have a release for their aggression. TV is not only the opiate of the masses, it is the opiate of the prison system. The alternative is a group of criminals with nothing better to do than figure out how to fight the system and the guards are there only direct access to the system. I've studied this so I'm ready for your response:mst:
> Sean


 
I'm still confused by your answers.  Are you against TV or for it for the inmates?  I think you also may be misunderstanding as I didn't say anything about being mean to them.  IMO, prison should leave the impression as a place that you don't want to return to.  With the way it is, you'd be surprised at the repeat offenders.


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## Tames D (Mar 21, 2007)

MJS said:


> You would be surprised as to what the inmates have available to them in prison. A roof over their head, 3 meals a day, plus snacks and certain food items available from the prison, rec. time, both inside and out, and weight equipment. The place where I worked had TVs in the day rooms that have cable. No HBO, Showtime or anything like that, but they got more than the basic channels. They also had the option of having a TV in their cell.
> 
> So...as you can see, prison/jail is not what it should be IMHO.
> 
> Mike


Where do I sign up for this free ride?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 21, 2007)

MJS said:


> I'm still confused by your answers. Are you against TV or for it for the inmates? I think you also may be misunderstanding as I didn't say anything about being mean to them. IMO, prison should leave the impression as a place that you don't want to return to. With the way it is, you'd be surprised at the repeat offenders.


Sorry... I am for the TV. As The Prison system rapidly becomes our laregest gross national product, we need to do it as cheaply as possible. Most of these guys were raised to be criminals; so, I doubt the detourant effect. Until we can target problem kids in the school system, we need to do what the prison system does; it seperates the problem people from the population. We need to stop pretending its about the inmates. In the end the people want them to re-offend so they can be taken away... again.
sean


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> Where do I sign up for this free ride?


 
Come to CT.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 21, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> Where do I sign up for this free ride?


just put an X here.
Sean


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## KeeblerElf (Mar 21, 2007)

I say give them the TV. But cable? C'mon, I didn't get cable in my house til I was 18. I had the really basic channels (like 7 of them) and dial up internet. Give them books, lots and lots of books. And educational materials that they can learn from and more books. And paper, pencils, crayons, markers, etc. Or have them do something constructive with their time, like write a novel. I don't think they should get all the amenities they get such as the cable on their tv, but a 6X6 prison cell and no daylight seems a little cruel. Unless you are a mass murderer or rapist something like that. Than give them the 6X6 cell with nothing. I have no sympathy for people that kill other people or rape other people. Just MHO.


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Sorry... I am for the TV. As The Prison system rapidly becomes our laregest gross national product, we need to do it as cheaply as possible. Most of these guys were raised to be criminals; so, I doubt the detourant effect. Until we can target problem kids in the school system, we need to do what the prison system does; it seperates the problem people from the population. We need to stop pretending its about the inmates. In the end the people want them to re-offend so they can be taken away... again.
> sean


 
Notice in post 4 I mentioned the TV.  Give it to them in the day room, not in the cell.  In addition, the rec time should be cut in half.  I remember a thread on here not too long ago about that Sheriff in Arizona, I believe.  The guy that has tents for them rather than cells.  Judging by what the article said, the inmates there didn't seem like they wanted to keep coming back.

Mike


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## Tames D (Mar 21, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> just put an X here.
> Sean


Throw in a massage service and I'm there. 

But seriously, I feel they should have some of these "luxuries", but I feel that if prison is made too comfy it might make it a little easier for an ex con that's having a hard time on the outside to commit more crimes. He has nothing to lose, if he doesn't get away with it then he goe's back to a place that's "not that bad". I want to know that they will have incentive NOT to go back in once their out..


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 21, 2007)

MJS said:


> Notice in post 4 I mentioned the TV. Give it to them in the day room, not in the cell. In addition, the rec time should be cut in half. I remember a thread on here not too long ago about that Sheriff in Arizona, I believe. The guy that has tents for them rather than cells. Judging by what the article said, the inmates there didn't seem like they wanted to keep coming back.
> 
> Mike


But they will... Anyhow, up in the Northwest the prison system makes a tidy profit off the inmates by overcharging for TV's, headphones, and cable service. Its a win win for the prison. They actualy profit. They will just fight in the rec room.
Sean


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> Throw in a massage service and I'm there.
> 
> But seriously, I feel they should have some of these "luxuries", but I feel that if prison is made too comfy it might make it a little easier for an ex con that's having a hard time on the outside to commit more crimes. He has nothing to lose, if he doesn't get away with it then he goe's back to a place that's "not that bad". I want to know that they will have incentive NOT to go back in once their out..


 
Thats my point.  Its a place to do time, not a resort.


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> But they will... Anyhow, up in the Northwest the prison system makes a tidy profit off the inmates by overcharging for TV's, headphones, and cable service. Its a win win for the prison. They actualy profit. They will just fight in the rec room.
> Sean


 
Well, I've been out of that job for a long time now.  Bottom line is, the state is going to do what they want to do.  The COs were there to ensure the safety and security of the facility.  We could moan and groan all we want about what they should/should not have, but it did no good.


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## Ping898 (Mar 21, 2007)

MJS said:


> Notice in post 4 I mentioned the TV. Give it to them in the day room, not in the cell. In addition, the rec time should be cut in half. I remember a thread on here not too long ago about that Sheriff in Arizona, I believe. The guy that has tents for them rather than cells. Judging by what the article said, the inmates there didn't seem like they wanted to keep coming back.
> 
> Mike


 

I remember another article about the sheriff who was making the prisoners wear pink jumpsuits...or maybe he painted the cells pink....either way, helped reduce repeat offenders, at least in his district...no telling if they went some place else to commit a crime...


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 21, 2007)

Ping898 said:


> I remember another article about the sheriff who was making the prisoners wear pink jumpsuits...or maybe he painted the cells pink....either way, helped reduce repeat offenders, at least in his district...no telling if they went some place else to commit a crime...


Prolly


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## Laurentkd (Mar 22, 2007)

MJS said:


> Notice in post 4 I mentioned the TV. Give it to them in the day room, not in the cell. In addition, the rec time should be cut in half. I remember a thread on here not too long ago about that Sheriff in Arizona, I believe. The guy that has tents for them rather than cells. Judging by what the article said, the inmates there didn't seem like they wanted to keep coming back.
> 
> Mike


 

I remember enjoying that post as well.  I am not that educated on this particular subject, and I'll admit that I don't know if having cable tv lowers the instances of fights, etc (someone posted something about paying for cable vs paying for another guard).  But I do know that it bums me out to think that I don't feel I can spend the money on cable for myself, yet any prisoner that lives off of my tax dollars gets it (they also have a better work out facility, and probably classier food than me too!).  Now I am not saying "woe is me." I am pretty fresh out of college, live alone, and trying to get my foot in the door as a professional martial artist, but it's still hard to feel good about how my tax dollars are used when I wouldn't even use them that way on myself.


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## Senjojutsu (Mar 22, 2007)

When one says prison there are so many levels or variants, just like Martial Arts training:

Low Security environments/Resident Halfway Houses
The County Jails, or &#8220;Houses of Correction&#8221; for misdemeanors & low-grade felons
Medium to Maximum Security State Prisons & Penitentiaries
The Federal low security camps - &#8220;Club Feds&#8221; for white-collar criminals
All other Federal Prisons up to &#8220;Super Max&#8221; in Colorado

Having been around, my two cents is I think the &#8220;Prison Rehabilitation Movement&#8221; which really blossomed during the 1960s is one of the great scams of the 20th century, not up there with the Ponzi Scheme called Social Security - but close.

At best, IMHO for those who will be on the outside shortly offering two &#8220;support programs&#8221; during incarceration that should focus on correcting two issues that are directly tied to why many of these people are in prison in the first place may be cost effective:

1) Offer to teach the inmates how to read & write at the high school level since so many inmates have almost no significant educational background. I am not talking &#8220;offsite college degrees programs&#8221; but correcting how many of them are functionally illiterate or worse.

2) Any reasonable therapies for them to address their alcohol and drug abuse problems. This is why so many of them are there in the first place. They are not just problem drinkers, but violent problem drinkers who also abuse a potpourri of prescription and illegal drugs. One cannot hold any type of stable employment on the outside with the frequent benders these guys (& girls) typically go on.

Short of that - lock &#8216;em up and any work details and/or light industry programs that help reduce the taxpayer&#8217;s cost are as a rule are a good thing. Just remove the Cable TV, or their weight gyms and squash courts. Keep on saying, &#8220;Incarceration is Punishment&#8221; and make it so every day.

BTW everyone talks about the costs of incarceration.
Has anyone done a comparison what a &#8220;career criminal&#8221; can cost society when they are on their crimes sprees amongst us law-abiding productive type citizens between jail stints?


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2007)

Senjojutsu said:


> When one says prison there are so many levels or variants, just like Martial Arts training:
> 
> Low Security environments/Resident Halfway Houses
> The County Jails, or Houses of Correction for misdemeanors & low-grade felons
> ...


 

Very nice post!  I'm in agreement with everything said here.  Regarding 1 and 2, I'd like to comment on that.  Those programs are offered to the inmates.  School, Bible Study, AA, NA, etc., are all programs that are offered.  Nothing wrong with this, as it just may turn someone around.  However, one thing thats always been on my mind, is why didn't these people take advantage of these programs before they landed in jail/prison??  If someone is concerned with their narcotics addiction, one would think that they'd seek out the many programs rather than waiting.

Like I said, I'm not against those programs, but one has to wonder if they're really interested in turning their life around, or if they're using it as an excuse to get out of the block for a few hours.

Mike


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## Drac (Mar 22, 2007)

*IT'S JAIL, NOT A COUNTRY CLUB*....I would like to see the penial system return to the Alcatraz Prison style settings..One man per cell and none of the* EXPECTED* comforts..That's why Sheriff Joe out in Arizona is a hero to many of us in LE..Make the inmates live in tents, wear pink shoes and socks etc...etc..


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> But they will... Anyhow, up in the Northwest the prison system makes a tidy profit off the inmates by overcharging for TV's, headphones, and cable service. Its a win win for the prison. They actualy profit.


 
Out of curiosity, how do you know how much the prison charges for this stuff?




> They will just fight in the rec room.
> Sean


 
Having a TV, headset or any other amenity is not going to prevent a fight.  An environment like this can blow up at any moment.  Having items such as you mention is not going to decrease the violence in prison.

Mike


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## Don Roley (Mar 22, 2007)

Question that I hope someone can answer....

Is it true that the courts have ruled that it is their *right* to have a television in their cell with cable if they want?


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2007)

Laurentkd said:


> I remember enjoying that post as well. I am not that educated on this particular subject, and I'll admit that I don't know if having cable tv lowers the instances of fights, etc (someone posted something about paying for cable vs paying for another guard). But I do know that it bums me out to think that I don't feel I can spend the money on cable for myself, yet any prisoner that lives off of my tax dollars gets it (they also have a better work out facility, and probably classier food than me too!). Now I am not saying "woe is me." I am pretty fresh out of college, live alone, and trying to get my foot in the door as a professional martial artist, but it's still hard to feel good about how my tax dollars are used when I wouldn't even use them that way on myself.


 
Like I said in another post, having a TV is not going to limit the number of fights.  I recall one night a fight breaking out in the dayroom over a board game.  I saw the post that you're referring to about the decrease of violence.  Speaking for myself, I'm curious as to how that assumption came about. 

Mike


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> Question that I hope someone can answer....
> 
> Is it true that the courts have ruled that it is their *right* to have a television in their cell with cable if they want?


 
Honestly Don, I really don't know.  I wonder if it said that they had to be allowed access to TV.  Now if it was termed that way, then its pretty open ended.  They have access to a TV in the dayroom, so as I said, if thats the case, they're technically not being denied.

Mike


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## Bigshadow (Mar 22, 2007)

IMO, those that commit heinous crimes against society should be processed for fertilizer.  There is no need to keep them around.  In our effort to be so humane to those that see others as being less human we have created a beast of a system that continually feeds off of society.  

Sometimes, society must do what doesn't feel good to keep society safe.  Safe isn't just about the people it also the resources that support the people within the society.

Having said all that...  Where's the humanity?


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## Bigshadow (Mar 22, 2007)

Drac said:


> *IT'S JAIL, NOT A COUNTRY CLUB*....I would like to see the penial system return to the Alcatraz Prison style settings..One man per cell and none of the* EXPECTED* comforts..That's why Sheriff Joe out in Arizona is a hero to many of us in LE..Make the inmates live in tents, wear pink shoes and socks etc...etc..



I saw a segment about Sheriff Joe.  I thought his idea was TOTALLY AWESOME!


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## Bigshadow (Mar 22, 2007)

Drac said:


> *IT'S JAIL, NOT A COUNTRY CLUB*....I would like to see the penial system return to the Alcatraz Prison style settings..One man per cell and none of the* EXPECTED* comforts..



I really liked the idea of Devil's Island, the French Penal Colony off the coast of French Guyana (I believe that is the location).  What is the name of that prison movie where they were on a high security island and were warring with one another?


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## Drac (Mar 22, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> I really liked the idea of Devil's Island, the French Penal Colony off the coast of French Guyana


 
Violent sexual offenders, murders, etc...etc..will go there..The run of the mill criminal will go Alcatraz..


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## Grenadier (Mar 22, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> I really liked the idea of Devil's Island, the French Penal Colony off the coast of French Guyana (I believe that is the location).


 
Speaking of which, they were showing "Papillon" on AMC recently...



> What is the name of that prison movie where they were on a high security island and were warring with one another?


 
No Escape:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Escape


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## KempoGuy06 (Mar 22, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I was Jamming to my new "Kings X" CD and I caught them bitching about paying for cable TV for prison inmates. Who is against this and why?
> Sean


No TV, no free time no anything. They are in prison for a reason. If we are complaing about over crowded jails, start issuing the death penalty to every prisoner that has been convicted of murder or worse. Then we dont have to worry about not enough room.

B


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2007)

MJS said:


> Out of curiosity, how do you know how much the prison charges for this stuff?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A former inmate told me he was charged $350 for a $60 TV and why, thats how. The idea of the head set is that you are in your cell by yourself, not bothering you celly, as opposed to a large rec room with one show on in a room full of violent criminals. And, I'm sorry, but statistics show you are wrong. I don't know what else to tell you.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> I really liked the idea of Devil's Island, the French Penal Colony off the coast of French Guyana (I believe that is the location). What is the name of that prison movie where they were on a high security island and were warring with one another?


They were soooo successfull.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2007)

KempoGuy06 said:


> No TV, no free time no anything. They are in prison for a reason. If we are complaing about over crowded jails, start issuing the death penalty to every prisoner that has been convicted of murder or worse. Then we dont have to worry about not enough room.
> 
> B


I'm sorry; I was discussing reality.
Sean


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## Bigshadow (Mar 22, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> They were soooo successfull.
> Sean




Sean, what is it that determines Success and failure?


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## Bigshadow (Mar 22, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> No Escape:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Escape




Great movie!


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## Bigshadow (Mar 22, 2007)

Drac said:


> Violent sexual offenders, murders, etc...etc..will go there..The run of the mill criminal will go Alcatraz..



Agreed!


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> Sean, what is it that determines Success and failure?


Cost for the growing population actually. Those evil prisons you mentioned can't hold all the folks we want gone. And its not as if guys that came out of Alcatraz became business executives. 
Sean


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## KempoGuy06 (Mar 22, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm sorry; I was discussing reality.
> Sean


I know, this would make a perfect world but that will never happen. In the mean time in my opinion if the TV's and other things cost the tax payers less than Im for it, if they help control the population while also keeping gaurds safe that again Im for it. But the fact that we spend all this money to keep inmate comfortable in prison while we have homeless people living on the streets is kind of rediculous

B


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> Agreed!


How much more taxes are you willing to pay to ensure that criminals are properly tortured to your liking?
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2007)

KempoGuy06 said:


> I know, this would make a perfect world but that will never happen. In the mean time in my opinion if the TV's and other things cost the tax payers less than Im for it, if they help control the population while also keeping gaurds safe that again Im for it. But the fact that we spend all this money to keep inmate comfortable in prison while we have homeless people living on the streets is kind of rediculous
> 
> B


Funny how the public votes for more prisons, but doesn't vote to feed kids. Why do you suppose that is?
Sean


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## Bigshadow (Mar 22, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> How much more taxes are you willing to pay to ensure that criminals are properly tortured to your liking?
> Sean



Stick them on an island far from anywhere with no means to get off the island and they can pick how they torture each other.  If any manage to make it off the island and to the civilized world, then they can be dealt with *"for less than the cost of a cup of coffee"*.

How much taxes you think that would cost?


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## Bigshadow (Mar 22, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Cost for the growing population actually. Those evil prisons you mentioned can't hold all the folks we want gone. And its not as if guys that came out of Alcatraz became business executives.
> Sean



I don't think they are evil, I think they need to get tougher.


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## Drac (Mar 22, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> How much more taxes are you willing to pay to ensure that criminals are properly tortured to your liking?
> Sean


 
*Whatever it costs..*Maybe when word hits the streets about how terrible it is the whole *"Jail-aint-so-bad"* attitude might cease and force adults to think twice about comitting an act that will land them there..No, it's *NOT* a cure all and it won't magically decrease the crime rate overnight but I believe it will help..


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## tradrockrat (Mar 22, 2007)

Drac said:


> *Whatever it costs..*Maybe when word hits the streets about how terrible it is the whole *"Jail-aint-so-bad"* attitude might cease and force adults to think twice about comitting an act that will land them there..No, it's *NOT* a cure all and it won't magically decrease the crime rate overnight but I believe it will help..



ditto...


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> A former inmate told me he was charged $350 for a $60 TV and why, thats how.


 
Ok...and you're using this analogy for every prison in the world????  



> The idea of the head set is that you are in your cell by yourself, not bothering you celly, as opposed to a large rec room with one show on in a room full of violent criminals.


 
Oddly enough I saw inmates where I worked, that had all those things available to them and there were many times when they'd be right there in the day room with everyone else.



> And, I'm sorry, but statistics show you are wrong. I don't know what else to tell you.
> Sean


 
Show me these stats.


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## KempoGuy06 (Mar 22, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Funny how the public votes for more prisons, but doesn't vote to feed kids. Why do you suppose that is?
> Sean


Because the majority of the public are morons and have their idea backwards

B


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## KempoGuy06 (Mar 22, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> How much more taxes are you willing to pay to ensure that criminals are properly tortured to your liking?
> Sean


More? How about less? Pay me about 1 million a year and I will torture the inmates myself. Im very imaginative and I garuntee thats far less than what we pay now. In fact what are there 1 billion people in the US, say everyone paid an even amount of taxes to support my salary the would be $.001 from every person. Wouldnt you say that would be worth it to make sure that these criminals are getting what they deserve?

B


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> How much more taxes are you willing to pay to ensure that criminals are properly tortured to your liking?
> Sean


 
Tortured???  Are you saying that limiting the things they have is torture??  I'm sorry, but if they can't do the time, don't do the crime!  They have access to phone calls, they have access to medical attention, including dental, they have access to a shower, they have access to TV, they have access to 3 square meals a day, they have access to visitors, they have access to councelors, they have access to the prison store, they have access to laundry, they have the chance to work in the prison, such as in the kitchen, and they have rec time, both indoor and out.  Oh they also have access to weight equipment.  So tell me Sean...exactly how are they being abused, or in your exact words tortured???

Mike


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## Don Roley (Mar 22, 2007)

Drac said:


> *Whatever it costs..*Maybe when word hits the streets about how terrible it is the whole *"Jail-aint-so-bad"* attitude might cease and force adults to think twice about comitting an act that will land them there..No, it's *NOT* a cure all and it won't magically decrease the crime rate overnight but I believe it will help..



What about locking them in a cell by themselves for most of the day, except when small groups of them are allowed out to eat? They can socialize for an hour or two, exercise to radio calethenics piped into the cells but otherwise be locked down. This would also probably cut down on rapes in prison as well as the schools that teach criminals to be better criminals and the violence against the staff.


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> What about locking them in a cell by themselves for most of the day, except when small groups of them are allowed out to eat? They can socialize for an hour or two, exercise to radio calethenics piped into the cells but otherwise be locked down. This would also probably cut down on rapes in prison as well as the schools that teach criminals to be better criminals and the violence against the staff.


 
Personally, I'd like to see this all the time, but here in CT., this is only at the Max. security prison.  23 hr. lockdown, whenever an inmate is taken from his cell, his hands are cuffed, feet are shackled and there are at least 2 CO's with the inmate.  Keep in mind that at this particular facility, this is where the worst of the worst are kept.  Inmates that have assaulted staff, constant violations, etc.

Mike


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2007)

Don, here is a link to the prison that I was referring to.



> Prisons in Connecticut use modern equipment to ensure maximum security.
> Northern Correctional Institution is a level 5 maximum security prison - the highest level of security in the Connecticut Corrections system. It is a special management unit that deals with problem inmates brought here from throughout the state's prison system.
> On any given day, the gray walls and green cell doors inside the Northern facility look exactly like the day before or the day after. This dismal place is home to people who chose to commit crimes more serious than most of us can comprehend.
> Level 5 inmates have assaulted staff or other inmates, and are a threat to the general prison population. The facility is also home to Death Row inmates awaiting capital punishment, and includes a close-custody gang program. Gangs, whether formed on the outside or inside, are considered high-risk groups requiring special security attention. The facility includes a chronic discipline unit which houses numerous problem inmates. The goal of the unit is to change their behavior and return them to the general prison population.


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## Don Roley (Mar 22, 2007)

Mike,
What is the reason for it not being used (or a similar system) in other prisons? One prisoner in a cell with a roll up bed. Tables brought into the central area and food served there while all the guards watch. Then repeat per cell block.


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> Mike,
> What is the reason for it not being used (or a similar system) in other prisons? One prisoner in a cell with a roll up bed. Tables brought into the central area and food served there while all the guards watch. Then repeat per cell block.


 
In CT there are 3 jails and the rest are prisons.  The jails are basically the intake facilities.  In other words, they are a short stay place.  The other facilities are long term.  They use the Level 1-5 system, 5 obviously being the worst.  

Why is this not used all over??  I honestly don't know.  I worked in the jail setting, so that was pretty much all I knew, for the time I worked there.  They ate in the day rooms and then returned to the cell until rec time.  A total of 51 inmates to one guard.  Walking down the hallway, I was outnumbered 17-1.  There were 3 halls, each with 17.

IMHO, I think it would be in the best interest of the staff, to have things run like the article I linked.


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## jks9199 (Mar 22, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> Question that I hope someone can answer....
> 
> Is it true that the courts have ruled that it is their *right* to have a television in their cell with cable if they want?


My understanding is that it's not a right -- it's a privilege.

But, as far as I know, you can't compell a prisoner to work.  Let's see...  If I don't work, I don't get dinner and the mortgage company ain't gonna be understanding about keeping the roof over my head.  Prisoner don't work... He gets 3 squares (if bland & boring) and keeps his roof.

Granted, the door locks on the wrong side... and you might find out that you're Bubba Ray's dancing partner, like it or not...


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> Stick them on an island far from anywhere with no means to get off the island and they can pick how they torture each other. If any manage to make it off the island and to the civilized world, then they can be dealt with *"for less than the cost of a cup of coffee"*.
> 
> How much taxes you think that would cost?


Only America's dignity.
sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2007)

Ok...and you're using this analogy for every prison in the world???? 
 No I said the Northwest.



Oddly enough I saw inmates where I worked, that had all those things available to them and there were many times when they'd be right there in the day room with everyone else.
 Humans are social creatures.



Show me these stats.
 No, you look em up. I took these classes about ten years ago; I'll trust things haven't changed since they showed them to me. Plus I couldn't begin to do a successfull search.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> My understanding is that it's not a right -- it's a privilege.
> 
> But, as far as I know, you can't compell a prisoner to work. Let's see... If I don't work, I don't get dinner and the mortgage company ain't gonna be understanding about keeping the roof over my head. Prisoner don't work... He gets 3 squares (if bland & boring) and keeps his roof.
> 
> Granted, the door locks on the wrong side... and you might find out that you're Bubba Ray's dancing partner, like it or not...


They make you work. Secondly in the Northwest the guards tend to frown on forced sodomy. I thought the voting public did too. what is your take? rape good or bad.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2007)

Drac said:


> *Whatever it costs..*Maybe when word hits the streets about how terrible it is the whole *"Jail-aint-so-bad"* attitude might cease and force adults to think twice about comitting an act that will land them there..No, it's *NOT* a cure all and it won't magically decrease the crime rate overnight but I believe it will help..


No, how much more of your paycheck do you want to go to the corrections system? on top of the war, the streets and highways, ect.


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Ok...and you're using this analogy for every prison in the world????
> No I said the Northwest.


 
Ok.





> Oddly enough I saw inmates where I worked, that had all those things available to them and there were many times when they'd be right there in the day room with everyone else.
> Humans are social creatures.


 
Yes, we are social.   So even with that TV and headset, they're still going to come out and be in a room with violent people.  Really Sean, this isn't the Ritz that they're staying at, its a prison man.  





> Show me these stats.
> No, you look em up. I took these classes about ten years ago; I'll trust things haven't changed since they showed them to me. Plus I couldn't begin to do a successfull search.


 
Well, many things change, so yes, I'd imagine that stats would change.  Seeing that you were the one to mention stats, you should provide them, if thats what you're building your case on.


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## Darksoul (Mar 22, 2007)

-The issue with prisons is just a smaller part of the big problem in this country. Why do people end up in prison? Multiple answers to that one, biggest one is lack of education and opportunity. And why are those a problem in this country? Multiple answers to that as well. City schools are often a breeding ground for the criminal element. Why? Again, multiple answers. See where I'm going with this? Everything in this country is connected, from how we treat other people to our environmental problems to our prison situation, you can always find a connection.

-Now that might make the problem seem too great to handle. I don't believe it is. Before people end up behind bars, we need to address the issues that put them on that path. Poverty, education, opportunity. 
Things won't be peferct but I believe a lot can be made better if we could focus. Now should a person have access to the aforementioned and still proceed to a life of crime, and therefore prison, the place should be somewhere to fear. Yes, fear. A place you really don't want to end up in, cause who knows what might happen inside those walls. Sounds mean, doesn't it?

-If a person is willing to break the law then punishment should be swift and appropriate. No bleeding hearts! If you kill another person, rape, assualt, whatever, then perhaps you have no place in this world. There are people out there who want justice to be served but then make it so that that justice means very little. My problem exactly with the 8th amendment, protection against cruel and unusual punishment, and excessive fines and bail. Poor people cannot pay those last two and depending on the crime, should repay society some other way. Once upon a time, the death penalty was normal, not cruel and unusual.

-I have more to add but my thoughts are flying to fast. Let me leave you with this: I had a sociology professor who also taught college classes to inmates. He stated that the prison had the lowest recidivism rate when the immates had access to education. When they ended the classes, due to public protest, the prison experienced higher recidivism rates. I don't think they should get free college when I had to pay for mine but this shows how important the education is, so effort should be made to educate before prison.

-Just my two cents, good topic, one worth reviewing regularly.

A--->


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## Drac (Mar 22, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> What about locking them in a cell by themselves for most of the day, except when small groups of them are allowed out to eat? They can socialize for an hour or two, exercise to radio calethenics piped into the cells but otherwise be locked down. This would also probably cut down on rapes in prison as well as the schools that teach criminals to be better criminals and the violence against the staff.


 
That's how Alcatraz was run and it WORKED..No gyms etc etc...


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## Gray Phoenix (Mar 23, 2007)

Prison should be a place that a person would not grow to like. Of course there are many different types of prisons. The guy who crashed his car into his living room because he was drinking to much shoudl not be thrown in with the murders and rapists. I say that because I believe that prisons/punishment should be consumate with the crime. The guy caught with a dead girl in his bed should be given nothing. Assuming he isnt executed, I would have no problem locking him in a cell with 5 other people just like him with food shoved through an access port. never to see the light of day. No offer of protection or recreation. As far as the economics, sedatives in the food. :nuke:

Anywho, not to drift too far. the prison expierience shoudl fit the crime.


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## Don Roley (Mar 23, 2007)

Drac said:


> That's how Alcatraz was run and it WORKED..No gyms etc etc...



Ok. So why go with more interaction between prisoners? More time in their cell means less chance of riots, attacks, etc. It also would require less people to watch them. Wouldn't that help save money as well?


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## Don Roley (Mar 23, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Funny how the public votes for more prisons, but doesn't vote to feed kids. Why do you suppose that is?



Well, you see the government is in charge of taking people and putting them away for a long, long time. That is not something you or I can do. If we did, if everyone did that, it would be chaos. I know I would love to send away a few people who irritate me, but we need an objective source to do so and not the public at large.

The government needs to do this because there are people that would kill our kids, rape our wives and take everything we have worked for.

But helping other people is something that everyone can do. So the public at large can do it themselves with no need for an objective source like the government to take charge.

So, how much have you done to help feed kids? Have you perhaps taken another job, sold everything you don't need for survival (like the computer you are typing on) and moved into the bare minimum apartment you need to surivive?

Or are you talking about _*people other than yourself*_ paying for things you want so that you can feel morally superior?


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## Drac (Mar 23, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> Ok. So why go with more interaction between prisoners? More time in their cell means less chance of riots, attacks, etc. It also would require less people to watch them. Wouldn't that help save money as well?


 
My post was somehow mis-read or I didn't make my point clear..I do *NOT* condone more interaction between..Keep them in their cells.Let them out to eat, shower and minimum time in the yard...


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## Don Roley (Mar 23, 2007)

Drac said:


> My post was somehow mis-read or I didn't make my point clear..I do *NOT* condone more interaction between..Keep them in their cells.Let them out to eat, shower and minimum time in the yard...



I did not say that. But somehow there has been a move to getting them out of their cells and interacting with each other. You oppose tha, I oppose tha, but since the time of Alcatraz that has been the case. Why is that? Why not keep them seperated from each other in their cells? At some point someone had to have given a reason to put them together more. I really want to know the reasons why that choice was made.


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## Drac (Mar 23, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> I did not say that. But somehow there has been a move to getting them out of their cells and interacting with each other. You oppose tha, I oppose tha, but since the time of Alcatraz that has been the case. Why is that? Why not keep them seperated from each other in their cells?


 
I don't know..Some of the "drug boys" are only strong and resistant to authorty when surrounded by their friends..





			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> At some point someone had to have given a reason to put them together more. I really want to know the reasons why that choice was made.


 
We will probably never know..


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 23, 2007)

MJS said:


> Tortured??? Are you saying that limiting the things they have is torture?? I'm sorry, but if they can't do the time, don't do the crime! They have access to phone calls, they have access to medical attention, including dental, they have access to a shower, they have access to TV, they have access to 3 square meals a day, they have access to visitors, they have access to councelors, they have access to the prison store, they have access to laundry, they have the chance to work in the prison, such as in the kitchen, and they have rec time, both indoor and out. Oh they also have access to weight equipment. So tell me Sean...exactly how are they being abused, or in your exact words tortured???
> 
> Mike


I wasn't talking about what they have, I was refering to the conditions the poster wanted them to have and implying it would cost more money to do so. That is the point of this whole thread by the way.:angel: 
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 23, 2007)

Darksoul said:


> -The issue with prisons is just a smaller part of the big problem in this country. Why do people end up in prison? Multiple answers to that one, biggest one is lack of education and opportunity. And why are those a problem in this country? Multiple answers to that as well. City schools are often a breeding ground for the criminal element. Why? Again, multiple answers. See where I'm going with this? Everything in this country is connected, from how we treat other people to our environmental problems to our prison situation, you can always find a connection.
> 
> -Now that might make the problem seem too great to handle. I don't believe it is. Before people end up behind bars, we need to address the issues that put them on that path. Poverty, education, opportunity.
> Things won't be peferct but I believe a lot can be made better if we could focus. Now should a person have access to the aforementioned and still proceed to a life of crime, and therefore prison, the place should be somewhere to fear. Yes, fear. A place you really don't want to end up in, cause who knows what might happen inside those walls. Sounds mean, doesn't it?
> ...


The whole problem with the education portion of the argument is that because the voting public denys a free education for everyone, we should deny prisoners a chance of rehabilitation.
sean


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## MJS (Mar 23, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I wasn't talking about what they have, I was refering to the conditions the poster wanted them to have and implying it would cost more money to do so. That is the point of this whole thread by the way.:angel:
> Sean


 
Personally, I think that they have enough.  The list of things that I gave, with the exception of the weights, is pretty much a requirement.  We can't deprive them of medical care, food, a shower, or a phone call, but we can limit other things.  IMO, despite what some people (inmates) may say, they really don't have it bad in prison.  

Like I said...don't do the crime if ya can't do the time..plain and simple.   The idea is to hopefully reform someone, not give them a Club Med vacation resort treatment.

Mike


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## MJS (Mar 23, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> The whole problem with the education portion of the argument is that because the voting public denys a free education for everyone, we should deny prisoners a chance of rehabilitation.
> sean


 
IMHO, if someone really wanted help, either with an addiction or with education, my question is, why did they wait until they landed in prison to get help??  There are many resources outside of prison.  In addition, I often have to wonder if they're really interested in getting that help in prison, or if they're using that time as an excuse to get out of the block for a few hours.  I used to see a large group head down to Bible study each week.  Now, if they were so interested in religion, why were they out committing crimes?  

Mike


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## jks9199 (Mar 23, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> I did not say that. But somehow there has been a move to getting them out of their cells and interacting with each other. You oppose tha, I oppose tha, but since the time of Alcatraz that has been the case. Why is that? Why not keep them seperated from each other in their cells? At some point someone had to have given a reason to put them together more. I really want to know the reasons why that choice was made.


I know that some of the reasons are logistical (there isn't enough space for the prisoners to be locked up that way in many facilities), and some are humanitarian (man is, as has been noted, a social animal).  

I've had a chance to speak with prison adminstration personnel several times, and heard different opinions about how to deal with prisoners.  Just one example...  Every year, the Hell's Angels do a run by a prison in California to "honor" their members that are locked up.  The prison actually lets the inmates line up along the fence for the drive-by; it's like they're on a reviewing stand at a parade.  The first time I heard of this, I thought it was nuts...  Until a prison officer explained how much control and leverage they get from this event.


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## tradrockrat (Mar 23, 2007)

what I find so fascinating about threads such as this is how so many opinions are based upon differng views of what government is actually for.

Some people feel government should stay out of everything, others feel it's the governments job to provide everything, while others feel the governments job is to protect its citizens from outside harm only.

Just an observation, but I think that this fundamental disharmony is why we'll never reach a consensus about such topics.

Mr. Roley has posted a few exceptional posts here IMHO - but that is because (I think) that we have a basic fundamental agreement on governemntal roles in this case.

Dark Soul made a great post about the economic / educational issues with crime, but IMHO it doesn't change what we should do with the convicts once they get to prison.  It has everything to do with _*keeping*_ them out of prison in the first place.


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## jks9199 (Mar 24, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> The whole problem with the education portion of the argument is that because the voting public denys a free education for everyone, we should deny prisoners a chance of rehabilitation.
> sean


Define a free education...

I'll grant that many areas public school systems aren't great -- but they're there.  And, in even the worst, somehow, many students manage to learn because they choose to bother.  I'll even openly admit that I wasted most of my high school years doing just enough to get by...  

Or are you suggesting that college and other higher ed should be free, as well?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 24, 2007)

MJS said:


> IMHO, if someone really wanted help, either with an addiction or with education, my question is, why did they wait until they landed in prison to get help?? There are many resources outside of prison. In addition, I often have to wonder if they're really interested in getting that help in prison, or if they're using that time as an excuse to get out of the block for a few hours. I used to see a large group head down to Bible study each week. Now, if they were so interested in religion, why were they out committing crimes?
> 
> Mike


No one goes to prison in the hopes of salvation. They are put there. If you don't believe me open the doors and see who leaves. The public does not believe the prisoners deserve rehabilitation and so they will limit it as much as possible. Therefore we treat them like human beings as cheaply as possible and build more prisons to hold the growing number of people we want off the streets.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 24, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Define a free education...
> 
> I'll grant that many areas public school systems aren't great -- but they're there. And, in even the worst, somehow, many students manage to learn because they choose to bother. I'll even openly admit that I wasted most of my high school years doing just enough to get by...
> 
> Or are you suggesting that college and other higher ed should be free, as well?


An emphatic yes.
sean


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## MJS (Mar 24, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> No one goes to prison in the hopes of salvation. They are put there. If you don't believe me open the doors and see who leaves. *The public does not believe the prisoners deserve rehabilitation and so they will limit it as much as possible.* Therefore we treat them like human beings as cheaply as possible and build more prisons to hold the growing number of people we want off the streets.
> Sean


 
I beg to differ on that.  Seems like anytime I pick up the paper, someone is stating that due to the over crowding, the inmates should be offered help before prison time.



Touch Of Death said:


> An emphatic yes.
> sean


 
So Harvard should let people attend for free?

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 24, 2007)

MJS said:


> I beg to differ on that. Seems like anytime I pick up the paper, someone is stating that due to the over crowding, the inmates should be offered help before prison time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just cuz you read somthing in the paper does not mean the public will actually vote to throw money at it. And I think the first two years of college should be universaly free. This would include all the remedial training to get you to the starting point. We are the richest nation on earth, by the way.
Sean


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## MJS (Mar 24, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Just cuz you read somthing in the paper does not mean the public will actually vote to throw money at it.


 
Sean, you made a pretty solid statement when you said:



> The public does not believe the prisoners deserve rehabilitation and so they will limit it as much as possible.


 
While the things in the paper should be taken with a grain of salt, the fact remains there is at least a split...some saying yes and some saying no.  




> And I think the first two years of college should be universaly free.


 
Please explain why?  



> This would include all the remedial training to get you to the starting point. We are the richest nation on earth, by the way.
> Sean


 
Remedial training??   Don't you think that the remedial training should take place before college??  If someone can't read or write, why are they progressing grade after grade??


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## jks9199 (Mar 24, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> An emphatic yes.
> sean


Then we're going to have to agree to disagree...

I busted my butt to pay for college.  As a result, I valued it more than many classmates.  For example, one fellow student actually complained once that the teacher's assignments in the course were cutting into his golf game...  This as I was working midnights, going to school, and working additional jobs.  No... I wasn't sympathetic.

But even beyond my personal bias, higher education isn't right for everyone, especially right after high school.  In fact, I think many kids today would be better served by a year of compulsory, para-military organized, service to the community.  I'm not suggesting everyone needs to be a soldier, but I think that the paramilitary structure with strict personal accountability has a lot of benefits instead of what's almost become an additional 4 years (for those who can afford it) of pseudo-adulthood without consequence.

I don't have any problem with student loan programs, grant programs, or scholarships (though I'm getting to the point that I think athletic scholarships at the top level for sports like football or basketball should be scrapped in favor of true farm teams...).  But I don't want my tax money going to ensure higher education...


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 25, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Then we're going to have to agree to disagree...
> 
> I busted my butt to pay for college. As a result, I valued it more than many classmates. For example, one fellow student actually complained once that the teacher's assignments in the course were cutting into his golf game... This as I was working midnights, going to school, and working additional jobs. No... I wasn't sympathetic.
> 
> ...


And welcome to the prison system becomming our largest GNP.
Sean


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## Ronin Moose (Mar 25, 2007)

Not sure what luxuries our inmate population deserves?  I say leave it up to Sheriff Joe.......

http://www.reelectjoe.com/

-Garry


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## jks9199 (Mar 25, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> And welcome to the prison system becomming our largest GNP.
> Sean


How?

You say that not giving everyone an automatic two years of college will guarantee that they'll go to prison?  Sorry... Lots of people manage to make legal choices who don't have any college -- and some of them don't even have a high school diploma.  I don't buy your reasoning, such as it comes through in one-liners.

I'd like to see a greater emphasis on providing useful vocational education, whether that's in the traditional trades like carpentry, masonry, plumbing, or electrical work, or in more modern areas like aspects of the computer industry, law enforcement, or office management.  I'd like to see the public schools freed of the need to be nannys and babysitters and allowed to concentrate on educating people instead of minding them.  I'd like to see more people accept responsibility for their own choices, too.  I said I wasted my high school years; there's no reason why I didn't work hard enough to live up to the capability I have and had and earn academic scholarships, except that I couldn't be bothered.  But that was my choice; nobody else was responsible for it.  And winding up in prison is typically (like virtually always) the product of a serious of choices to do illegal activities, even for drug addicts.  Most states now have diversionary programs for first time drug offenders; that means to get convicted of a felony for simple possession means that you've probably chosen not to accept the help provided at least once.  (In my experience... It's more than once.)  Outside of drug offenses... It usually takes more than one deliberate choice to commit a felony and end up in prison.  (Prison and jail are not the same.)  Most first offenders are pled out, often to misdemeanor offense.  Many felons don't go to prison; prisons are simply too crowded, and many receive substantial suspended sentences.


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## Don Roley (Mar 25, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> And I think the first two years of college should be universaly free. This would include all the remedial training to get you to the starting point. We are the richest nation on earth, by the way.



Let me get this straight, you are saying that people who mamage to get through 12 years of free education and still do not have basic skills should be then given *even more* free education in the hope that this time it will be different?

Either the case is the free educational system is a failure (which would mean that even more would just be throwing good money after bad) or you have to think that *there are reasons other than lack of education* that cause people to turn to crime.

I lean toward the latter. I think that it is not a case of a lack of education leading to crime, but a factor or factors that cause people to turn to crime *and* cause them to do poor in school.

Look over that again. The reason they can't read and the reason they are boosting cars are the same thing. If you only try to treat one of the symptoms in the hope the other one goes away you are going to fail and fail miserably.

The reasons are probably quite varied, but it is pretty much beyond the educational system to deal with. Hence we need to courts and jails. I can tell you as a teacher that there are kids I see that I just know are going to be in trouble with the law later on. There is not a damn thing I can do to prevent it. If they want help to get themselves better educated the teachers will fall over themselves trying to help them. But these kids will not seek it out if they don't know something. A few of them actually do well, but are just twisted in some way.

And I think that your opinion is an insult to the guys that do not do well in school and yet struggle to walk the straight and narrow. Over my years as a teacher I have seen kids who just can't seem to grasp some of the stuff they are being asked to learn. In a few cases, they made bad choices about how much to study and in some cases they were just born without the ability to learn as much as the typical person. I know a few of these kids even years after they have left me and are now adults. 

One of them works at a convinience store at the last train transfer of my journey home after martial arts class. I stop by and get a _chuhai_ or something to drink on the last train I take across town and help kill the pain from training. He is probably going to be working jobs like that the rest of his life because he does not have the ability to do much of anything else. But he does his job damn well and always greets me and the customers with a big smile and an honest desire to help.

This guy spent years in English class and all he can use is "Hello Mr Roley" but he does not do crime. But why should be bother if there is an excuse that criminals would not be criminals if only they were better educated? Why try to walk the correct path when there is a ready- made excuse for taking whatever actions you want instead of resisting the temptations?

But if you really want to help people go to school, you are quite free to contribute _*your*_ money to various charities that will help poor kids go to college. Before you ask anyone else to be _forced_ to spend money so you can feel morally superior you should cut back on any spending for yourself and lead by example. So come back after you have stopped training in martial arts, going to the movies and such and instead use the money to send kids to college.


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## kenpotroop (Mar 25, 2007)

Sean you seem pretty passionate about this. I have toured the places they have it easy to the most part.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 26, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> How?
> 
> You say that not giving everyone an automatic two years of college will guarantee that they'll go to prison? Sorry... Lots of people manage to make legal choices who don't have any college -- and some of them don't even have a high school diploma. I don't buy your reasoning, such as it comes through in one-liners.
> 
> I'd like to see a greater emphasis on providing useful vocational education, whether that's in the traditional trades like carpentry, masonry, plumbing, or electrical work, or in more modern areas like aspects of the computer industry, law enforcement, or office management. I'd like to see the public schools freed of the need to be nannys and babysitters and allowed to concentrate on educating people instead of minding them. I'd like to see more people accept responsibility for their own choices, too. I said I wasted my high school years; there's no reason why I didn't work hard enough to live up to the capability I have and had and earn academic scholarships, except that I couldn't be bothered. But that was my choice; nobody else was responsible for it. And winding up in prison is typically (like virtually always) the product of a serious of choices to do illegal activities, even for drug addicts. Most states now have diversionary programs for first time drug offenders; that means to get convicted of a felony for simple possession means that you've probably chosen not to accept the help provided at least once. (In my experience... It's more than once.) Outside of drug offenses... It usually takes more than one deliberate choice to commit a felony and end up in prison. (Prison and jail are not the same.) Most first offenders are pled out, often to misdemeanor offense. Many felons don't go to prison; prisons are simply too crowded, and many receive substantial suspended sentences.


We will build more.
Sean


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## jks9199 (Mar 26, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> We will build more.
> Sean


Build more what?  Schools?  Prisons?  Bicycles?  Software programs?  Dagwood sandwiches?  Donut collections?  Monuments?  Houses?  Roads?  (Please... tell me roads!  We need them in my area!)  

How about actually responding with more than a vague one liner?  Tell me how guaranteeing more education will reduce prison populations.  Tell me how you'd change the educational system so that people won't choose to commit crimes.  Tell me how 2 more years of education will offset the incredible temptation to a kid who sees his drug dealing dropout homeboy driving new cars and wearing more bling than his hardworking folks see in a year...   Tell me how more free schooling will produce people willing to accept the responsibility to make the legal choice in the face of temptation like that.

Will it guarantee them a better job?  I doubt it.  Will it make them more fit for work?  Maybe, maybe not.  

Just show me how lack of college sent anyone to prison...


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## MJS (Mar 27, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Build more what? Schools? Prisons? Bicycles? Software programs? Dagwood sandwiches? Donut collections? Monuments? Houses? Roads? (Please... tell me roads! We need them in my area!)
> 
> How about actually responding with more than a vague one liner? Tell me how guaranteeing more education will reduce prison populations. Tell me how you'd change the educational system so that people won't choose to commit crimes. Tell me how 2 more years of education will offset the incredible temptation to a kid who sees his drug dealing dropout homeboy driving new cars and wearing more bling than his hardworking folks see in a year... Tell me how more free schooling will produce people willing to accept the responsibility to make the legal choice in the face of temptation like that.
> 
> ...


 
Good questions and ones I'd like to hear the answer to.  Post #82 has some questions I'm curious about as well.

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 27, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Build more what? Schools? Prisons? Bicycles? Software programs? Dagwood sandwiches? Donut collections? Monuments? Houses? Roads? (Please... tell me roads! We need them in my area!)
> 
> How about actually responding with more than a vague one liner? Tell me how guaranteeing more education will reduce prison populations. Tell me how you'd change the educational system so that people won't choose to commit crimes. Tell me how 2 more years of education will offset the incredible temptation to a kid who sees his drug dealing dropout homeboy driving new cars and wearing more bling than his hardworking folks see in a year... Tell me how more free schooling will produce people willing to accept the responsibility to make the legal choice in the face of temptation like that.
> 
> ...


I don't have the figures in front of me but the illiteracy rate in prison is very high. My answer to the question of education lies with children and not the already damaged adult. We need to boost the K-12 in a big way. We need to Identify the future criminals and deal with them and thier family situation before it comes to a head. Don't start telling me how this will violate our constitutional rights because we live in a nation that now jails you for having brown skin and being Muslim without a trial or right to legal council. Saving a few kids shouldn't raise any eyebrows.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 27, 2007)

kenpotroop said:


> Sean you seem pretty passionate about this. I have toured the places they have it easy to the most part.


They have it easy because its cheaper to do so. I am not an inmate hugger. I just feel the prison system needs to be put in the hands of the republic and not so much the public. Voters are too easily lead astray by their emotional responses to crime and criminals.
Sean


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## jks9199 (Mar 27, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't have the figures in front of me but the illiteracy rate in prison is very high. My answer to the question of education lies with children and not the already damaged adult. We need to boost the K-12 in a big way. We need to Identify the future criminals and deal with them and thier family situation before it comes to a head. Don't start telling me how this will violate our constitutional rights because we live in a nation that now jails you for having brown skin and being Muslim without a trial or right to legal council. Saving a few kids shouldn't raise any eyebrows.
> Sean



OK... you want to identify the "future criminals."  How are you going to do that?  What mechanism are you going to use? 

You want to change the educational system to build better literacy; I agree, the public educational system is overwhelmed because too many tasks other than education have been placed on it, and that the so-called "accountability" movement isn't working.  It's led to teaching to the test, by necessity, and some aspects of the testing process just aren't working.  It's absolutely unreasonable to expect a person who doesn't speak English well to pass a test in English, for example -- but No Child Left Behind denies funding to school systems that administer more appropriate tests to students from immigrant families (whether the student's family immigrated legally or illegally is immaterial.)  So... how do you want to change it?  Add two more years?  Don Roley already questioned simply adding more time; if they aren't learning it in 13 to 15 years (counting some of the Headstart type of programs)...  What's two more years going to do?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 27, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> OK... you want to identify the "future criminals." How are you going to do that? What mechanism are you going to use?
> 
> You want to change the educational system to build better literacy; I agree, the public educational system is overwhelmed because too many tasks other than education have been placed on it, and that the so-called "accountability" movement isn't working. It's led to teaching to the test, by necessity, and some aspects of the testing process just aren't working. It's absolutely unreasonable to expect a person who doesn't speak English well to pass a test in English, for example -- but No Child Left Behind denies funding to school systems that administer more appropriate tests to students from immigrant families (whether the student's family immigrated legally or illegally is immaterial.) So... how do you want to change it? Add two more years? Don Roley already questioned simply adding more time; if they aren't learning it in 13 to 15 years (counting some of the Headstart type of programs)... What's two more years going to do?


The next two years are what everyone needs to simply sharpen their skills for the job market: the typing they didn't take, pass english 101, 201 if possible, sharpened math skills ect.
As for the K-12 system, we should pay a salary for the quality of person dealing with our children, boost counceling services, throw some truant officers in the game (saw that on the "little Rascals"), smaller class rooms ect.
Sean


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## Drac (Mar 27, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> OK... you want to identify the "future criminals." How are you going to do that? What mechanism are you going to use?


 
If he prefects it he can sell it to the LE communities on the city, state and federal levels and make a FORTUNE...


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 27, 2007)

Drac said:


> If he prefects it he can sell it to the LE communities on the city, state and federal levels and make a FORTUNE...


Smarter people than me already know exactly how to do this, its getting the public to ignore the "eye for an eye" justice mentality that is the issue. If I can do that, I would be rich indeed.
sean


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## Drac (Mar 27, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> its getting the public to ignore the "eye for an eye" justice mentality that is the issue. If I can do that, I would be rich indeed.


 
Some little punk-gang-banger-drug-boy breaks in a senior citizens house robs it and beats the occupant half to death..What do you think should be done??? I 'd love to tell you what I think should happen and it *AIN'T* *COUNSELING*  but someone would drop a dime on me to the Senior Mods..


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 27, 2007)

Drac said:


> Some little punk-gang-banger-drug-boy breaks in a senior citizens house robs it and beats the occupant half to death..What do you think should be done??? I 'd love to tell you what I think should happen and it *AIN'T* *COUNSELING* but someone would drop a dime on me to the Senior Mods..


An excellent example of the Eye for an Eye mentality that I am talking about. Thank you. Already you can do nothing personaly because you have a government that handles these issues for you; so, that you yourself are not put into prison.
Sean


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## Drac (Mar 27, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> An excellent example of the Eye for an Eye mentality that I am talking about. Thank you. Already you can do nothing personaly because you have a government that handles these issues for you; so, that you yourself are not put into prison.
> Sean


 
I am willing to bet that if you worked the streets with me for one month and got to know and deal with these little lost ones your whole outlook would change...


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## Kacey (Mar 27, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> OK... you want to identify the "future criminals."  How are you going to do that?  What mechanism are you going to use?



Sadly, quite a few states do it by literacy rates in the early grades - why spend money on education when you can build more prisons?  (for those who can't tell, there's a great deal of sarcasm in this statement)



> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In many states, the prison systems look at the number of students not reading on grade level in grades two, three, or four to determine the number of prison cells to build ten years hence (Lawmakers Move to Improve Literacy, 2001). The fact that the prison system can use this prediction formula with great accuracy should make us all cringe, but the critical point is that if businesses can use educational data for predictions, so can educators.[/FONT]



Also here:



> Dr. Grover (Russ) Whitehurst: Yes. Again, the predictability of reading for life success is so strong, that if you look at the proportion of middle schoolers who are not at the basic level, who are really behind in reading, it is a very strong predictor of problems with the law and the need for jails down the line.
> Literacy for societies, literacy for states, literacy for individuals is a powerful determinate of success. The opposite of success is failure and clearly, being in jail is a sign of failure.
> People who dont read well have trouble earning a living. It becomes attractive to, in some cases the only alternative in terms of gaining funds, to violate the law and steal, to do things that get you in trouble. Few options in some cases other than to pursue that life. Of course reading opens doors.



And here:



> Many states, including Indiana and California, predict the number of prison cells that will be needed in 10 to 12 years by looking at the reading scores of third-grade students today.



And here:



> _If you want to know how many prison cells to build, look at the number of third graders who cant read. _  Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-LA)



I could keep going... but I think I'm beating a dead horse.  My point is that _extending_ the educational process is not going to help the majority of failing students - changing how the education system helps them will do that.  And then, of course, there are so many factors that affect success in school that have nothing whatsoever to do with the school that it becomes a chicken-and-egg question:  does reading difficulty predict future criminal activity, or does criminal activity stem from the inability to read, and thus to get a job requiring reading?  Or is it a totally different issue?  Simply because a correlation exists does not make the correlated items causal - likewise, predictive data is not absolute - it is merely predictive.

The problem, as I see it, is that American society has fallen into the trap of being reactive, rather than proactive - way too little is spent on prevention, and way too much is spent on punishment; reverse that, and it might actually work.  But further education is _not_ the only method of prevention - it is a _piece_ of the prevention puzzle, but there are way too many non-educational influences to attempt to fix everything through the education system - which, as has been said, is doing way too many things it was never intended to do already.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 27, 2007)

Drac said:


> I am willing to bet that if you worked the streets with me for one month and got to know and deal with these little lost ones your whole outlook would change...


They did teach us and "us against them" mentality develops in Law enforcement; so, I believe you. They do tell us to resist. I just chose not to go to prison as an employee or an inmate. 
Sean


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## bydand (Mar 27, 2007)

Drac said:


> Some little punk-gang-banger-drug-boy breaks in a senior citizens house robs it and beats the occupant half to death..What do you think should be done??? I 'd love to tell you what I think should happen and it *AIN'T* *COUNSELING*  but someone would drop a dime on me to the Senior Mods..





Drac said:


> I am willing to bet that if you worked the streets with me for one month and got to know and deal with these little lost ones your whole outlook would change...



Hats off to the ones who DO have to deal with the reality of the criminal situation and not just academically deal with this element.  It is easy for those of us who sit on the outside looking in to tell those who are there how it looks like something should be done, quite a different story when you are the one dealing with it. 

Drac, I would love to hear your thoughts (probably know exactly what you would say anyway) but you are right, you would get at least a rude post warning. LOL

More schools would be great, first 2 years free would be a gigantic waste of money.  As much as I would like that having 4 boys myself, the reality is if you don't care enough in High School, you are not going to care in College when you are away from home, away from regular "rules" and nobody standing over your shoulder asking why you didn't do what the Prof asked you to do.   If this sounds like experience talking, you would be right.  I pissed away my scholarships due to those very reasons, and was asked to leave my first 2 universities even though I had a free ride and high enough scores on entrance exams and IQ tests that universities were calling me and offering spots.  I was not a borderline case who had to choose between university or crime to get by, but I would not have been able to go to school without the free ride.  Did it help me in the long run?  I made some good friends, learned how much I could drink before falling down, and how to piss off an entire university administrative staff; but no, the free 2 years of school did nothing for helping me.  

The schooling I got when I had to work my butt off to go, ate Raman noodles by the ton because it was the only thing I could afford in enough quantity to make me feel full, and literally counted pennies to pay for books and gas, is the school that I appreciated and finally grew up to be a productive (or as productive as I am going to get) member of society.


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## jks9199 (Mar 27, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Smarter people than me already know exactly how to do this, its getting the public to ignore the "eye for an eye" justice mentality that is the issue. If I can do that, I would be rich indeed.
> sean


Cite 'em.  I've got to say that I haven't seen any single reliable predicter for which person would commit crimes.  I've arrested people who could literally buy & sell me, and people who would be lucky to have 2 cents, for all sorts of crimes.  And I've found many more people who, despite enormous temptation and opportunity, choose NOT to break the law, whatever their education, literacy or personal situation.

In my current assignment, I deal primarily with gangs.  As in criminal street gangs, like MS-13, Sur 13, 18th Street, Bloods, Crips, Gangster Disciples, quite a few 1%er motorcycle clubs, and so on.  Before I go any further, let me toss one caveat out:  Gangs are a highly regional, highly variable phenomenon, even in the so-called national or international gangs.  In my area, we see things that a West Coast gang investigator would say are crazy; they see things we'd say are nuts.

With that said, guess what?  It's not just poor kids that are successfully recruited into these groups.  Many of them are quite literate; more than a few are bilingual.  The energy and creativity they put into some of their gang knowledge is astounding; if they'd turn it to a positive venue, the sky's the limit on what they can achieve.  (I'm not suggesting that illiteracy doesn't severely hamper one's choices in life; there's no doubt about it that the modern workforce in the US demands a high level of literacy even for lots of traditionally unskilled labor or trades.)

There are some things that are fairly common; we frequently find that they turn to the gang for family support that they don't find at home.  But it's often not because the parents aren't trying.  We almost always find a "live for this moment" or "live fast, die young" mentality that I almost have to call hopeless.  What do we seldom find?  Active, informed and involved parents, not buddies, and not parents who deny that their kids can do wrong.  Parents that have bothered to teach the kids right from wrong, and held them accountable for their choices.  (Interestingly, the gangs often hold their members VERY accountable for choices...  And I've already said that I feel that the educational system has been so tied down by extraneous and unrelated crap that it's hard to educate.  Hell, some places can't even fail a kid who does no homework, and doesn't pass any tests!)

As for other offenders that I've dealt with over my years in law enforcement?  I see the same thing; repeat offenders seldom feel that they should be held accountable; they almost all have some explanation why it was someone else's fault or why they "had" to commit the crime.  Very few openly admit that they were responsible and that their choices led them to crime.  Some have learned what to say... But few truly accept their own accountability for their choices.

Of course, my sample is small, and inherently biased.  I work and live in what tends to be at least middle, and often tending towards upper class areas, socio-economically.  There's no control group, and, quite honestly, I don't generally care why someone commits a crime, unless the reason is an element of the offense.  It's also limited to those who got caught; a psychology professor of mine made a very powerful argument that we have some very brilliant psychopaths running companies today, and responsible for things like Enron.

Improvements in the educational system cannot help but improve society, in many ways.  That, I believe, we can take as a given.  But I don't personally believe that educational change alone will significantly impact crime.  To do that, we need societal changes, as well.  When we have multiple politicians who could not meet the minimum entry standards for law enforcement with regard to integrity, when we have academics and parents seeking to excuse people from their personal responsibility for the choices they make -- we'll have significant societal problems, as reflected in crime rates.


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## heretic888 (Mar 28, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Cite 'em.  I've got to say that I haven't seen any single reliable predicter for which person would commit crimes.



jks9199,

It has been awhile since I've looked into this sort of stuff, but there are telltale signs in young childhood that strongly correlate with criminal behavior during adolescence and adulthood. In general, the children with low literacy rates, poor grades, and who have difficulty exhibiting self-control and attention are statistically highly likely to engage in delinquent or criminal behavior in later years.

Once again, Kacey was spot on with her analysis of the situation, in my opinion. We have traditionally been too reactive (i.e., punishment, "eye for an eye") and not proactive enough (i.e., prevention, rehabilitation) in our legal system. Drac's posts pretty much embody the problems here, in that much of the general populace (including many LEO's) aren't concerning with seeing what we as a society can do to stop this behavior at its source, but simply making the people that engage in the behavior "pay". And, of course, once they have "payed" they're back on the streets again --- with all the same pathologies and issues they had beforehand --- only, this time, prison has made them even more dangerous than they were before.

That's how it looks to me, anyway.


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## Monadnock (Mar 28, 2007)

Which is why violent offenders should be locked up and kept that way, with some rehab and assessment to see if they are fit to return at the end of their senetence, not let back onto the streets.

Rapists, molesters and murderers, let 'em rot for life.

As for kids with bad grades, I'm not sure sure the Justice system is the right answer as preventative medicine.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 28, 2007)

Monadnock said:


> Which is why violent offenders should be locked up and kept that way, with some rehab and assessment to see if they are fit to return at the end of their senetence, not let back onto the streets.
> 
> Rapists, molesters and murderers, let 'em rot for life.
> 
> As for kids with bad grades, I'm not sure sure the Justice system is the right answer as preventative medicine.


Your right the justice system should not be involved in making sure the kids don't fall throught the cracks. That is the responsibility of the education system; so, fund it.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 28, 2007)

bydand said:


> Hats off to the ones who DO have to deal with the reality of the criminal situation and not just academically deal with this element. It is easy for those of us who sit on the outside looking in to tell those who are there how it looks like something should be done, quite a different story when you are the one dealing with it.
> 
> Drac, I would love to hear your thoughts (probably know exactly what you would say anyway) but you are right, you would get at least a rude post warning. LOL
> 
> ...


Its hard to stay objective when you are surrounded by scum day after day. I would not applaud subjectivism however. It is easy to sit here on a computer telling you guys what I learned ten years ago about the criminal justice system; however, the anecdotal evidence of how you pissed away scholarships; does not help deviants get better in the least.
Sean


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## bydand (Mar 28, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Its hard to stay objective when you are surrounded by scum day after day. I would not applaud subjectivism however. It is easy to sit here on a computer telling you guys what I learned ten years ago about the criminal justice system; however, the anecdotal evidence of how you pissed away scholarships; does not help deviants get better in the least.
> Sean



Never intended it to.  Just showing that 2 years of free college isn't the answer for everybody.  If I get the slant of the last comment, I wouldn't want my kids going to university with a bunch of deviants because they (the deviants) can go without any outlay or commitment.  We need to catch the at risk kids *LONG *before they are college age, by then they have set their course generally and all extra schooling would do, is generate a criminal who is better spoken and well read.


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## MJS (Mar 28, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> The next two years are what everyone needs to simply sharpen their skills for the job market: the typing they didn't take, pass english 101, 201 if possible, sharpened math skills ect.
> As for the K-12 system, we should pay a salary for the quality of person dealing with our children, boost counceling services, throw some truant officers in the game (saw that on the "little Rascals"), smaller class rooms ect.
> Sean


 
I agree.  It would be nice to make sure that these people had the proper skills.  My question and one that I asked earlier, is, why are these people progressing grades if they don't have the skills?  In other words, if someone is failing a subject, having difficulty, etc. why are they being moved to the next grade?  

That being said, the first problem that needs to be dealt with is why are the teachers moving them?


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## Monadnock (Mar 28, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Your right the justice system should not be involved in making sure the kids don't fall throught the cracks. That is the responsibility of the education system; so, fund it.
> Sean


 
Perhaps in small part, since it is a requirement by law that kids get an education up through the age of 16 or 18, but there's a lot more resting on the parents. Let's fund them instead.


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## MJS (Mar 28, 2007)

Monadnock said:


> Perhaps in small part, since it is a requirement by law that kids get an education up through the age of 16 or 18, but there's a lot more resting on the parents. Let's fund them instead.


 
Yes, I agree.  IMHO, too many times, people want to pass the buck to someone else.  We should be starting with the parents.


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## jks9199 (Mar 28, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Your right the justice system should not be involved in making sure the kids don't fall throught the cracks. That is the responsibility of the education system; so, fund it.
> Sean


I disagree... And I suspect people are beginning to know what's coming next.

It's not the educational system's job to ensure that a particular student learns.  It's the job of the educational system to make sure that the information and knowledge is available to the students.

It's the STUDENT's job to learn, and at an earlier age, their parents's job to do all they can to encourage them to do so.  You cannot make a person learn.  The old adage about being able to lead a horse to water, but not make it drink is perfectly apt here.  Society can support and encourage parents in the effort of helping their kids learn; witness the simple disparity, even in identical school systems between Asian students whose family and culture strongly support education, and many black students who don't benefit from that very strong support of education (and can even be criticised  and ostracized for putting too much emphasis on education!)  Society can support and encourage education in general -- but society cannot make any one person choose to learn.

In the end, the responsibility for staying out of jail is simple.  It rests on choices of the individual more than anything else.  If you don't make choices to associate with criminals and to commit criminal acts, the odds of finding yourself in prison are very slim (I admit; they does exist.  Mistakes -- or worse -- have put innocent people in jail or prison, but I'm not aware of a better system than the one we have.).


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 28, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I disagree... And I suspect people are beginning to know what's coming next.
> 
> It's not the educational system's job to ensure that a particular student learns. It's the job of the educational system to make sure that the information and knowledge is available to the students.
> 
> ...


Yes, its very easy to use the "lead  haorse to water" analogy, but when you see how the other leading Industrialized nations are avoiding the problem all toguether, I suggest you look there first.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 28, 2007)

Monadnock said:


> Perhaps in small part, since it is a requirement by law that kids get an education up through the age of 16 or 18, but there's a lot more resting on the parents. Let's fund them instead.


Great, what's your plan?


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## jks9199 (Mar 28, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Yes, its very easy to use the "lead  haorse to water" analogy, but when you see how the other leading Industrialized nations are avoiding the problem all toguether, I suggest you look there first.
> Sean


Are other industrialized nations really avoiding the problem?  The truth is that it's hard to say.  You'd have to begin by looking at the legal system; they're not all the same, and that will shape their prison populations, as will their correctional system.  Also, many (if not most) countries are much more demographically homogenous (in multiple factors from ethnicity to society) than the USA.  That also will have an effect on their prison population and rate of incarceration.

Very simply -- you can't look at only one element of a very complex system, and claim that "if only we fix this, the problem will go away."  I've got a sure fire way to reduce the prison population.  Crime rates have consistently shown a link between the population of 18 to 25 (or so) year olds, especially males.  So... I can solve that problem.  For the next 12 years -- no more draft.  We'll just kill 'em all.  Crime rates will plummet.

But, y'know... I just don't see many people going for that approach.  It's got some major problems with it...

I've never said (and, in fact, have said the opposite) that improving the educational system -- but not by simply adding 2 more years -- won't benefit society and reduce the crime rates.  I will say that simply adding 2 more years of education by itself is unlikely to do so; those who will benefit from it will seek it on their own in our current system, and those who need it to acquire basic skills won't.  Revamp the educational system; let's make sure that everyone who gets a high school diploma is really able to read and write, and, in light of today's environment, has a basic level of computer literacy.  Let's provide more vocational education, especially targetting those who are either unready or just plain not fit for college, whether by temperment or intelligence/learning aptitude.  We don't need a nation of college professors who can't find a working toilet...  Let's get the schools out of the nanny/babysitting business.

But let's also try teaching something else, from an early age.  Let's get people to accept that it's not whether or not you tried, or whether everyone got a turn, and that life's just plain not fair.  Let's teach people that when you make a bad choice -- it has consequences.  And you've got to take them...

I bet that, even if we changed nothing else in our educational system, if we got people to accept and realize that they are responsible for their actions and their choices -- for good or ill -- we'd see a reduction in crime rates.  And I bet society would be doing better, too.


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