# I am not a Karateka, but I have a (rather self-interested) question...



## Marnetmar (Mar 15, 2014)

Greetings everyone! As I said I'm not a Karate practitioner, but rather a Wing Chun practitioner. Though both of our arts take a different approach to things, I have a lot of respect for Karate, and the reason I'm here is because I'm very curious about looking into where the art I practice came from, and one theory that I've been looking into is that Wing Chun evolved from Fujian White Crane which is also said to be an ancestor of Karate.

Something interesting I have found is that a few Karatekas have compared the Seisan, Sanchin and/or Tensho Katas, which allegedly evolved from the San Zhan form from White Crane *(Assuming I've done my homework correctly)*, to our first form Sil Lim Tao, usually also pointing out Wing Chun's possible origins in White Crane. At first I thought this claim was a little bit iffy, but then I came across a style of Wing Chun that actually resembles White Crane a great deal while still making use of all the basic Wing Chun techniques we know today, and their version of SLT actually resembled those three katas quite a bit more than the conventional version of SLT I was used to. When I looked at San Zhan, this foreign style of SLT I'd never seen before, and a conventional version of the form in that order, I saw what seemed to be a bit of an evolution between each style, and Seisan, Sanchin and Teshno seemed to match up very nicely.

So what I'm proposing is that, from what I could see, this other version of the SLT form looked MUCH more similar to the Seisan, Sanchin and Teshno katas some Karatekas have compared to conventional Wing Chun, which once again supports a theory of a common White Crane ancestor.

However, I am NOT a Karate practitioner, so I could very well be talking out of my rear end, so I decided to ask you guys if you think my point is valid or not. I'm not here to show any disrespect or to come off as ignorant (which I most likely am), I'm just a guy that's interested in finding out where his martial art came from.

Here is the San Zhan form from White Crane:






Here is the Seisan Kata from Goju Ryu:






Sanchin:






Teshno:






"Old" Sil Lim Tao:






Conventional Sil Lim Tao:






Once again, I'm just a guy that's interested in finding out where his martial art came from and decided to look to a few outsiders for help on his mission :asian:

Peace!


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## K-man (Mar 15, 2014)

I'm not sure that karate is the spot to be looking for origins of WC. Certainly there are similarities in the clips you posted but the common feature is in the Kung fu of the Fujian province in China. Matsumura, founder of Shuri-te, Higaonna, founder of Naha-te and Uechi, founder of Pangainoon (now Uechi-Ryu) all spent time in China studying the local martial art. All brought back kata they had learned and integrated them into their Okinawan art. 

One of the kata that Matsumura brought back was Hakutsuru. Here you will find many movements in common with Sil Lim Tao.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_IVGE8IhOEE

Basically the three Masters I referred to above became Kung fu Masters during their time in China so it should come as no surprise that there would be many similarities between WC and Okinawan Karate. WC has gone one way but is much closer to its roots than karate which has gone in a different direction. Karate, a blend of Kung fu and the local Te, changed radically when taken into the schools and universities, even more so in mainland Japan. 
Most karate you see around now is just hard. The original was a blend of hard and soft as is still practised in Okinawa. 

Now there are many WC practitioners on this forum who know much, much more about WC than I will ever know. They will undoubtably pass on their knowledge of WC's origins but from the karate perspective I guess it's fair to say we are just close cousins.
:asian:


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## TimoS (Mar 15, 2014)

K-man said:


> the karate perspective I guess it's fair to say we are just close cousins.
> :asian:



I would say distant cousins, but that is at least partly my Shorin perspective on this.


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## Marnetmar (Mar 15, 2014)

Thanks for your helpful replies guys! Very insightful.

Also, a little more white crane stuff. Their movements are really, really fascinating to watch:


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## K-man (Mar 15, 2014)

You might recognise some of the moves in this video of Uechi Ryu Sanchin. 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B7YDkZrJ-V0

And Naihanchi kata from Shorin Ryu.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TBKAZ3WxX78

Then there is Kakie which is similar to Chi Sau and Chi Na.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jzPErd8FXyw
:asian:


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## twendkata71 (Mar 16, 2014)

[I would say that Naha te(goju ryu) would be more closely related to WC than the Shuri te(shorin ryu). And if memory serves me right, none of the three masters stated trained with the same masters in China. Each brought back a distinctly different style of fighting. If they all trained in White Crane boxing, there are different styles of crane boxing.  Hiagoanna also brought back the iron body training that is not common in white crane.  
Pangainoon(or Uechi ryu) more closely resembles dragon,tiger and snake styles of Gung fu with some white crane or whooping crane style.   My research is still incomplete, but I will continue to look. As I research and find more I will post my findings.



QUOTE=K-man;1626839]I'm not sure that karate is the spot to be looking for origins of WC. Certainly there are similarities in the clips you posted but the common feature is in the Kung fu of the Fujian province in China. Matsumura, founder of Shuri-te, Higaonna, founder of Naha-te and Uechi, founder of Pangainoon (now Uechi-Ryu) all spent time in China studying the local martial art. All brought back kata they had learned and integrated them into their Okinawan art. 

One of the kata that Matsumura brought back was Hakutsuru. Here you will find many movements in common with Sil Lim Tao.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_IVGE8IhOEE

Basically the three Masters I referred to above became Kung fu Masters during their time in China so it should come as no surprise that there would be many similarities between WC and Okinawan Karate. WC has gone one way but is much closer to its roots than karate which has gone in a different direction. Karate, a blend of Kung fu and the local Te, changed radically when taken into the schools and universities, even more so in mainland Japan. 
Most karate you see around now is just hard. The original was a blend of hard and soft as is still practised in Okinawa. 

Now there are many WC practitioners on this forum who know much, much more about WC than I will ever know. They will undoubtably pass on their knowledge of WC's origins but from the karate perspective I guess it's fair to say we are just close cousins.
:asian:[/QUOTE]


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## twendkata71 (Mar 16, 2014)

I agree with Kman on the statement that karate today,on mainland Japan and around the world is very different from its Okinawan and Chinese ancestor arts. Especially styles like Shotokan, Kyokushinkai (and its offshoots) and Wado ryu, which barely resemble the original Okinawan karate brought to Japan. Shito ryu and Goju ryu on the mainland still somewhat resembles the Okinawan karate do/ karate jutsu. But you are right in that they are more hard, than a blend of hard and soft.
Most of karate or karate do today practiced around the world is so sport oriented that it has lost its connection to the "real karate " of the old masters and their original styles.


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