# Sifu Benny Meng's Wing Chun University



## coffeerox (Jul 26, 2010)

I just found this today while browsing WC videos.  Benny Meng of the VT Museum started an online learning program similar to what you see with Michael Wong and Jin Yeung (or is it Young, sorry) The difference is that this is not free, it costs 35 bucks/mo to subscribe to current and future videos within the curriculum. Here are some sample clips from the training videos

Intermediate Lap Sau





Pak Sau





What do you guys think about this?  In my opinion, the content is good. I'm kind of disappointed they mixed in the old videos instead of making new ones and supplementing that with Chu Shong Tin's seminar (which I've seen btw).  If you check out the SNT curriculum page, you'll see what I mean.  These videos come from the VHS tape they made a long while back. 

http://vtm-dlp.com/catalogue/snt/snt.html

Utilizing both videos does make it easier to understand but I think it would have been more helpful if it was more structured and step by step rather than giving us the run-down and then covering finer points through the seminar.

Once it gets into the new videos though, it gets a lot better.  He goes through the lesson explaining the details and showing us the application and it's different variations.  This is the kind of step by step I was talking about.

Having gone through both Jin's and Michael Wong's lessons, I would say that the lessons are on par.  They are all valuable as they have something different to teach.  For instance, Michael Wong focuses on adapting WC to real life situations and Jin focuses on body structure and concepts.  Both of them actually compliment each other very well.  

As for the value, the catch is that you'll be paying 35 a month for a month but you'll be waiting for new videos to be created and uploaded.  Once you've seen and practiced all there is, the subscription loses it's value very quickly.  Personally, I prefer Michael and Jin's model however I am drawn to what Benny Meng has to offer.


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## geezer (Jul 27, 2010)

The topic of learning WC from books, video and on-line courses has already been covered. The opinion of experts is clear: _Don't waste your time or money._ 

DVDs, videos, books and the like can be a great _supplement_ to hands on training, but never a substitute. If you frequent _Jin Young's_ website, you'll note that _this_ is all he's trying to do. His videos are a great supplemental aide to his students in the Hawkins Cheung - Gary Lam sub-system. And, they are a great way to share  and discuss ideas with other WC branches. They aren't a "do-it-yourself" program!!!

Another thing, investigate what's available, visit different classes, then make a decision, and commit to one system or branch for _at least six months_. Don't monkey around, switching from group to group. Even within the WC family, you shouldn't try to "cherry pick" just what you like from different groups. That's like trying to build a car with parts from half-a-dozen different models. Even if they are all the same brand, you still wont end up with something that works well!

So, if you don't like what's available on your side of town (my group for example) then get out to Tempe and visit Joy's class... but don't waste his time if you aren't serious! No car? No problem. My tiny, 4 foot 11-in. tall 14-year old daughter decided she wanted to attend an arts high-school in Tempe. Every day she'd get up a dawn, walk to _the light-rail station_ and commute 50 minutes each way to get there... because she really wanted to go to _that_ school. A student transport pass cost her less than $30 a month. My point is that _it can be done._ Or you can sit at home, watch you-tube and "teach yourself". See how that works for you!


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 27, 2010)

geezer said:


> The topic of learning WC from books, video and on-line courses has already been covered. The opinion of experts is clear: _Don't waste your time or money._


 
That about covers it.

Distance learning, Online Learning, Video learning in martial arts is at best a supplement to training with a real live teacher on a regular basis


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## jks9199 (Jul 27, 2010)

Dude -- you've had people all but offer to come and pick you up so that you can train.

What the hell else do you want?  There's no wing chun download for your brain, or pill that'll give you _mad skillz_.  It takes real training, with a real teacher for all but a tiny handful of incredibly talented individuals who would excel at ANY physical undertaking.

Quit making excuses and looking for easy ways out, and invest some sweat equity.  Geezer has told you about training opportunities that I have to accept his word are doable -- because you're the one who keeps making excuses and looking for distance training and the like.


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## Boozmork (Jul 27, 2010)

Agreed. I was really introduced to Wing Chun through a few of those online tutorials. 
It was a terrible idea because you don't really learn anything except the ability to mirror what you perceive to be correct. 
With someone teaching you in person they can test you and give you specific advice and even tailor training exercises specifically for you. 
I'm not as experienced as a lot of the people on here but three months with Sifu must equate to at least three years in front of youtube . 

I have to do a bit of travelling to get to class as well. I don't see it as a negative though. It gives me chance to turn my mind onto training and off from everything else. And on the way back I get to detox a little and let the lesson sink in properly before my mind gets occupied by anything else.

Get to class!!  Chi Sau is so much fun, you can't do that remotely without breaking your monitor


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## mook jong man (Jul 27, 2010)

_YouTube doesn't hit back._


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## coffeerox (Jul 27, 2010)

what the hell are you guys talking about? seriously?  This was a post about the *content* on Benny Meng's website, not about my training or whatever the hell you guys twisted it into.

@geezer:  I don't hate your class/branch/sub-system or anything, I meant every word that I said when I was trying to get it together so I can start coming back down.  Actually recent events have shown me that I need to get back more than ever.



> Dude -- you've had people all but offer to come and pick you up so that you can train.



I DO have people that come pick me up to train.  Every Wednesday in fact.  It's not a class, but we at least have people trained in other styles that I can at least play around with, like spar, do drills shown to me in videos and test my application to see what the result is.  This is an alternative while I get my finances together to go back to geezer's class.

This thread wasn't even about me.  I was showing you guys what I found and I wanted to know your opinion on the CONTENT of the clips, not what you think about self training and turning it into an issue about me.   

I don't even feel welcome anymore because I feel that as soon as I try to say something you're gonna get me for me being a self-trainer.  Thanks a lot guys.



> His videos are a great supplemental aide to his students in the Hawkins Cheung - Gary Lam sub-system.



A student of his asked if it was possible to do it at home, he said yes.  That's all I need to know about Jin's videos.  A part of self-training is the student, how able he is to absorb what is being taught and putting it into practice.  If the student can't learn what is being taught to him at home, how is he able to learn when being taught in person?  Benny Meng has covered this question as well.  It says on the FAQ that some things can be done solo, but for the most part you need a training partner to make this happen.  Even Michael Wong after oh, 20 or so odd lessons, says that you need a partner.

@Steve, if you can get a day off on Wednesday afternoon/evening, I invite you to come over to our training sessions.  We don't just sit there and theorycraft.  I'm not saying we know everything and are masters or whatnot, we just come together to put into practice what we learned.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 27, 2010)

The general view is that video and book training is a compliment to, not a replacement for classroom training. Learning under a qualified instructor will be faster, more reliable, provide immediate feedback and correction. Learning by book or video means you risk repeating mistakes and incorrect movements until they become hard to "unlearn" when you do finally start working steadily with a real instructor.  A couple buddies coming by to play martial arts is not a substitute for a serious study group led by an experienced practitioner. If you memorize the alphabet ACBDFE, it'll be a chore to fix it later.

Content of the clips is fine. Most of the clips from reliable instructors are.


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## coffeerox (Jul 27, 2010)

> A couple buddies coming by to play martial arts is not a substitute for a  serious study group led by an experienced practitioner.


That goes against Bruce Lee's idea of putting things into practice to see if it works or not.  The simple fact is, something is being taught to me, I drill it as shown, and I test it in sparring.  That's already more than what most Wing Chun students do!



> Even within the WC family, you shouldn't try to "cherry pick" just what  you like from different groups. That's like trying to build a car with  parts from half-a-dozen different models. Even if they are all the same  brand, you still wont end up with something that works well!



I don't agree with that at all.  If you want to say that, then might as well denounce Jeet Kune Do, both Jun Fan and Concepts because that's exactly what they do.  Might as well throw in MMA while you're at it.

What I do, is the same concept as JKD, but applied to only 1 style.  For instance, there's different stances used by different WC lineages.  William C's adopts a sideways stance with a rear and lead leg.  Others use a square on stance, some just use a straight up natural fighting stance.  The point is not that you cherry pick one of these and use it as you like.  The point is that you study why they are used, put it into practice and find what works.  

It could be that all of it works, but they are trained that way for a specific purpose.  For instance, Master Wong's uses both square on AND the traditional WC stance as well as a natural fighting stance.  Why? Because in a real life situation, you're not going to be ready to go into your WC stance.  You have to do what is natural for you, your automatic reflexes that WC trains, will come in and THAT is where your stance work will come in.

It's not cherry picking at all.  It's learning the varieties within your style and why those variations exist.  There is no "this way" or "that way"  you use "no way" as "way".  Tan Sau is a Tan Sau, doesn't matter what lineage you are from,  there may be MORE ways to use Tan Sau that you haven't thought of, but the more ways you learn to use Tan Sau, in the end, it's just a Tan Sau.  

This idea also came from Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do.  It's not a riddle book, you have to have a certain level of comprehension (which is outside of Martial Arts) to understand what he is saying.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 27, 2010)

You're not Bruce Lee.


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## jks9199 (Jul 27, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> You're not Bruce Lee.


He ain't even Leroy Green...


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## coffeerox (Jul 27, 2010)

typical attitudes of poor martial artists, I can't even call you martial artists if you can't accept somebody the way they are and discuss things like gentleman.  Like i said this post wasn't meant to be about self-training and wasn't meant to be about me, however YOU people made it about me.

You can say whatever you like about my martial art background but we all come from different walks in life and have our strengths in our own areas.  I'm more insulted by the fact that people aren't debating the issue at hand and instead resorting to personal attacks because that's all you can do.  If you want to do that then I can play that game too.  Just remember not to get angry because I'm the best there is in that area.  You started it, not me. 

What's sad is that this is coming from the moderator and administrator.  I would expect this from a member but you guys run the site.  Your attitude is supposed to be above this but it isn't.


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## coffeerox (Jul 27, 2010)

geezer, pick your best student and we'll do a sparring match.  We'll see what a self-taught has to offer.


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## geezer (Jul 27, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> what the hell are you guys talking about? seriously?  This was a post about the *content* on Benny Meng's website, not about my training



OK, to get back to the OP, I'm not a huge fan of Benny Meng's interpretation of the art, but that's just my personal opinion. As far as the video'd go, I've only seen "sample clips" similar to the ones you posted, and I think they are probably useful to Mr. Meng's students. However, I am not a fan of "distance learning", even outside the martial arts. I'm old school about that. Even when talking about purely _academic_ subjects, I'd rather sit my butt down in a small classroom and learn face to face with a good professor... and not through some online program. Now when it comes to learning a martial art like WC, I think that is all the more true. You can't get the "feel" without crossing bridges with people that have experience. My problem with the videos is that they are seem to be presented as a "course" in WC. I simply don't see that as workable. On the other hand, Jin's stuff seems to be presented as a supplement for his student, and a way of sharing with other WC folks. I don't have a problem with that at all.  




coffeerox said:


> @Steve, if you can get a day off on Wednesday afternoon/evening, I invite you to come over to our training sessions.  We don't just sit there and theorycraft.  I'm not saying we know everything and are masters or whatnot, we just come together to put into practice what we learned.



As you know, I have the Y class on Weds. eves. so that won't work. But we do a Sat. thing at Kiwanis Park and it might be fun to get together. Also, I think it's great that you actually experiment with stuff on your own. I'm all for that. I think the best students always try to take what they learn in class and test it out on their own. The question is, "If you haven't committed to a school yet, exactly _what_ are you testing out?" I know some guys that are great martial artists who never got a really high rank in any traditional art, but they did have a really strong foundation before going off on their own. Something to think about.


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## geezer (Jul 27, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> geezer, pick your best student and we'll do a sparring match.  We'll see what a self-taught has to offer.


Sorry, didn't see this, I was typing a reply to your earlier remarks (see above). Anyway, you sound a bit angry. I think you should just try to relax and take it in stride. I've been doing my best to help you, but a lot of people seem to be mis-interpreting what you say already, and this might also be taken the wrong way. It would be better to PM me about sparring practice. I'm off to Disneyland on Thurs. but will be back in about 6 days. Keep in touch. --Steve


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## jks9199 (Jul 27, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> typical attitudes of poor martial artists, I can't even call you martial artists if you can't accept somebody the way they are and discuss things like gentleman.  Like i said this post wasn't meant to be about self-training and wasn't meant to be about me, however YOU people made it about me.
> 
> You can say whatever you like about my martial art background but we all come from different walks in life and have our strengths in our own areas.  I'm more insulted by the fact that people aren't debating the issue at hand and instead resorting to personal attacks because that's all you can do.  If you want to do that then I can play that game too.  Just remember not to get angry because I'm the best there is in that area.  You started it, not me.
> 
> What's sad is that this is coming from the moderator and administrator.  I would expect this from a member but you guys run the site.  Your attitude is supposed to be above this but it isn't.


Interestingly enough, I've said NOTHING about your skills.  I've never met you nor seen you move; you may be one of that tiny minority I mentioned.

I have, repeatedly, addressed your attitude.  I'll say it bluntly: as long as you make excuses, you won't be successful in your training.  When you choose to stop making the excuses, and find ways to make it work -- then you may well excel.

A "violence prone playgroup" (to steal a name) can be a great training environment, once you have a certain base level of skills built up.  Until then, unless you have someone with a lot of skill guiding and shaping it, you stand a much better chance of getting hurt and ingraining bad habits and improper technique that you feel "works."  I've got a student who took several years to realize that, rather than relying on tricks and trying to over-analyze what his opponent might do, if he simply did what he was taught -- and kept working with it until he could do it under pressure -- he'd succeed.  That's why I don't encourage students to spar without supervision.

I suppose, though, that we're derailing this thread, which you apparently started to discuss the one website.  I apparently misunderstood your seeking opinions about it; you weren't intending it as means of furthering your own training without actually attending formal (or informal) classes with a wing chun sifu, and just wanted to kibbitz about the site.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 27, 2010)

Let me make this perfectly clear.

You want things to go your way, you write a script and hire actors. You want feedback, accept that you're not going to like all of it.

I stated a true fact. You are NOT Bruce Lee. Lee was traditionally trained, you are not. Lee is considered a martial arts genius, acknowledged by serious players in the arts as such. You're a kid learning from books and videos making an *** out of himself on a web forum full of traditional martial artists. I have no idea of your ethnicity, so can't say if you and he are both Chinese, however Lee is dead, and you are not.  So I have listed at least 3 verifiable ways you are NOT like Bruce Lee.

As to the "I can play the game too" and all that, I'll be even blunter:
1- Read the rules again. You did read them when you signed up right?
2- Pay careful attention to the part about "Challenge Posts".

Now, if you wish to continue to post about training off videos and books, accept the fact that the majority of the members here look at that material as supplemental at best, and you'll continually be reminded of that.  If you don't want to hear it, I suggest you find a forum populated by like minded folks and hear what you want to hear. 

As to the videos, as I said, they are ok. However you yourself said "would have been more helpful if it was more structured and step by step" which is why you train from a legit instructor. You don't have to wait for "tape 2" to get more information, you simply ask for clarification.  

Just because you -think- you are monkeying the movements right, doesn't mean you are.  My JKD instructor was anal in correcting every little thing. Hands off by a degree, elbows a quarter inch too wide, stance an inch too wide, etc.  My Wing Chun instructor was just as particular in correcting things. My bookshelf is has 4 shelves over flowing with books by some seriously good folks.  My video library, huge, and the Youtube bookmarks several thousand long.  When I want to train, I find a flesh and blood instructor, I don't just go out back and bang with my friends.  Course, my videos are out there. Lets see yours.


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## Tensei85 (Jul 27, 2010)

To OP,

I've previously trained under Benny Meng for over a decade. So to the question of the thread, I would say the content for the Online University will be detailed & generally decently put together. Take note, I say "will be" as I haven't viewed the actual University site so I can't comment much on the content provided. But let me say from the vid's offered & posted it seems well put together with decent knowledge & can be used as a complementary training device as long as it's not substantially different from what your Sifu has to offer and you have that particular skill set training platform in motion. 

Benny Meng is a knowledgeable practitioner & Instructor of Wing Chun, has something to offer the community.

"Now is it worth $35 per month"? I would say it depends on the knowledge of the Student that is intending to use this device for training purposes.

If your brand new & don't know your way around Wing Chun than I would say most likely yes, it provides some type of structure & unit as well as it is from the same source, well give or take a few haha. 

Now if your well experienced and can see what is genuine, not that this is not. Than I would say you really have what you need so train more with that, so probably would not be worth your $35 instead spend it for a private lesson with your Sifu, would get more out of it. 

So that's really all I can say to this thread without getting too personally involved which is never good over the Internet. 

Haha confusing but hope it helps.

p.s. I'm glad your taking your training more seriously and am looking for ways to train with Geezer, he's a great guy! Lot to offer...

Enjoy

Also p.s.s Addendum, If your brand new and have a Sifu it may or may not be useful as it may just confuse you & the instructions your Sifu is providing so take that into consideration as well but still decent knowledge provided none the less.


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## mook jong man (Jul 28, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I just found this today while browsing WC videos. Benny Meng of the VT Museum started an online learning program similar to what you see with Michael Wong and Jin Yeung (or is it Young, sorry) The difference is that this is not free, it costs 35 bucks/mo to subscribe to current and future videos within the curriculum. Here are some sample clips from the training videos
> 
> Intermediate Lap Sau
> 
> ...


 
I only watched the first two clips because my internet connection is really slow.
From the bits I saw it was nothing ground breaking , pretty basic really.
With the first clip the major difference I saw with the way he did lap sau and the way we do it is that his Wu Sau hand was right back.

Ours is forward and in line with our Bong Sau , both making contact with the opponents punching arm , so that they both support each other .
As we roll up into Bong Sau our Wu Sau or Dai Sau is driving up so that the opponents strike is deflected up .

Having our Wu Sau already in a forward position supporting our Bong Sau means we can absorb greater force and our Wu Sau is already in position to latch their attacking arm down rather than having to travel from further back.
It might seem like a trivial difference but nano seconds count in Chi Sau sparring and in real fighting.

In the second clip I am in  agreement with the contact point of his Pak Sau because the heel of the palm is in the natural line of the bone structure of the forearm.

I don't know whether he was trying to cater for beginners by just giving them a simple straight punch defence or not .
But we prefer to use the Pak Sau mainly for breaking through a guard , its pretty low on my list as a deflection to a straight punch I must say.

The reason for this is that the palm heel area is a very small surface area in which to intercept someones wrist at very high speed.

In comparison , the surface area when using a Tan Sau or counterpunch is a lot larger using the forearm to intercept , this is a lot more forgiving at very high speed and pretty much only has to be placed on the centreline in order to make contact rather than trying to parry across with a Pak Sau .

Plus the fact that it is rather passive in execution , only turning the incoming force away laterally , even though it can be followed up almost at the same time with a strike from your other hand.

The Tan Sau or using your centreline punch to intercept  are very invasive and aggressive right from the get go.
The opponent is immediately on the defensive as the techniques can deflect and strike through in one motion using only the one arm.

The driving elbow force inherent in these techniques will also have a much more adverse effect on the opponents structure , often times smashing straight through and collapsing their arms and affecting their balance Mainly because it is aimed at the centreline rather than merely redirecting force sideways.

Pak Sau has its place as an emergency type technique if you haven't got time to mount a better defence , but it shouldn't be a go to technique for defence against straight punches.

There are superior techniques that are a lot more economical and indeed much safer for the user.

PS.  Don't be so disrespectful to Geezer , the bloke was probably already training in Wing Chun while you were still on your mummy's tit.


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## coffeerox (Jul 28, 2010)

> You want feedback, accept that you're not going to like all of it.


*I WASN'T ASKING FOR FEEDBACK FOR MYSELF*

*I WASN'T ASKING FOR SELF-TRAINING FEEDBACK*

*THAT IS COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC*

Tensei85 and mook jong man's posts were exactly the kind of discussion I was looking for.  Instead I'm getting RAGGED ON!!!  How the hell do you think I'm going to react to it? Defensively of course.  You and other people are challenging me hard and I'm hitting back.  I don't care who it is.



> I stated a true fact. You are NOT Bruce Lee. Lee was traditionally  trained, you are not. Lee is considered a martial arts genius,  acknowledged by serious players in the arts as such. You're a kid  learning from books and videos making an *** out of himself on a web  forum full of traditional martial artists. I have no idea of your  ethnicity, so can't say if you and he are both Chinese, however Lee is  dead, and you are not.  So I have listed at least 3 verifiable ways you  are NOT like Bruce Lee.


Your problem is that you think I'm trying to "BE" like Bruce Lee and I'm not.  I'm merely following his research and teachings.  Just because I understand what he is saying and you don't doesn't mean you can discredit me and my intelligence.

I read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.  I took that and used it in a different direction, but still kept the same concept.  You and anybody else can criticize me all you want for it but I'm not going to change my mind.



> 2- Pay careful attention to the part about "Challenge Posts".


Practice what you preach.  Don't challenge me and say all these things when it's off-topic and then expect me not to react this way.



> Now, if you wish to continue to post about training off videos and  books, accept the fact that the majority of the members here look at  that material as supplemental at best, and you'll continually be  reminded of that.


That's fine but that was not the topic of this thread.  **I** was not a topic of this thread until people MADE ME the topic of this thread.  This thread was *not about self-training* and it was made into one.  You're not listening to me. Of course you're not because you're too busy being right that you don't see you're wrong.

Bob Hubbard.  You don't like me very much, you don't like what I believe in, and you react according to that.  I don't blame you.  What I really criticize you on is that you are an administrator and you don't hold yourself up to that standard.  You're going around flaunting your power like every other admin and mod I've seen.  You can't hold your ground in a real conversation so what are you gonna do, ban me? LOL that's all you can do.  I bet talking is all you can do in real life too.

Seriously.  Forget what I've said in the past, and just treat me like a human being, because that is what we all would like to be treated.  I haven't done anything to you to deserve this treatment.  I've shown nothing but respect towards you but you've shown nothing but contempt for me.  It may or may not be the actual truth, but that is the way *I* see and feel about it, so that is the way it is.  How you react is up to you.


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## dosk3n (Jul 28, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Practice what you preach. Don't challenge me and say all these things when it's off-topic and then expect me not to react this way.


 
He hasnt actually challenged you. He was meaning the challenge post to Geezer that pretty much sounded like you said get your best fighter and I will show you I can kick his ***... I know thats not how you said it but you must agree it kinda sounds that way and he never said anything like that to you so he is practicing what he preaches.

On the other hand I have to agree I didnt originally read the thread as being something that was aimed for feedback and it just sounded like you were sharing what he had found. Theres nothing wrong with that. I actually encourage this.

I think this threads got a bit out of hand now and turning in to a slagigng match and should be closed.

We ALL need to be a bit more open minded. After all we're all friends here right?


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## coffeerox (Jul 28, 2010)

> He hasnt actually challenged you.


Well going by standard forum rules, he has challenged me.  His posts are very aggressive and I'm instinctively striking back.



> He was meaning the challenge post to  Geezer that pretty much sounded like you said get your best fighter and I  will show you I can kick his ***


So what he means by "Challenge posts" are actual physical challenges?  Because we're not talking about that at all.  We're talking about aggressive behavior on the internet.  To be fair, I'm only defending myself here yet Bob wants to go into all sorts of off-topic stuff which is mainly criticizing me.  Who's 'challenging' who?



> it just sounded like you were sharing what he had found


That's exactly what I intended.  Had we actually gone into a proper discussion in the first place, it would have been very interesting discussion on Lap Sau and Pak Sau and the subtle differences between lineages but instead, it's turned into (in Bob's words) monkeying around imitating martial arts with friends.  I also invite Bob to our gathering.  If he isn't afraid to get punched in the face.  We'll see who the monkey is then.

---

By the way, I want to get this out there.  I have NEVER in my LIFE, seen so much hostility within a MA community.  Generally any MA community I go into, there are always people welcoming you to the group and be happy to discuss or answer questions.  I've been on the most hostile place of them all, Youtube, and nearly every Sifu there has answered or clarified my questions and were a delight to talk to.  I've been on many forums for other topics of interest and a lot of them are actually very interesting and have lots of good information and different viewpoints.  That's the kind of thing that I want to see here.


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## dosk3n (Jul 28, 2010)

Listen mate Im being a mediator here. Im taking no sides and have no grudge agains you or Bob, but come on a threat of punching someone in the face is not needed. I know your defending yourself but from what? Youre not in danger from people on a web forum.

Everyone just needs to drop it and start on a clean slate. When coffeerox posts dont take in to account past discussions as that just preemts an argument.

I work in a call centre and if we read notes and see that a complaint has been made by a customer in the past we sometimes assume that the call you are about to take is going to be a complaint and get defensive. Were told not to do this and to take every call like a new one.

The same seems to happen here. We have read Coffeerox previous posts and know the outcome of them and we no he self trains so we have assumed the intension of the original post as something other than it is.

People may disagree this has happened but read over it again and the thread has went down a direction that could have taken so many other routes if we hadnt assumed.


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## MJS (Jul 28, 2010)

*ADMIN NOTE:*

*Folks, We've already generated a few reported posts in this thread.  I strongly suggest that everyone read the forum rules, specifically the part on challenges.  

Before this thread gets closed and people get banned, return to the topic at hand.  If you can't post in a civil fashion, dont post at all!

MJS 
MT Asst. Admin*


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## zepedawingchun (Jul 28, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> That goes against Bruce Lee's idea of putting things into practice to see if it works or not. . . . . . .
> 
> It's not cherry picking at all. It's learning the varieties within your style and why those variations exist. There is no "this way" or "that way" you use "no way" as "way". Tan Sau is a Tan Sau, doesn't matter what lineage you are from, there may be MORE ways to use Tan Sau that you haven't thought of, but the more ways you learn to use Tan Sau, in the end, it's just a Tan Sau.
> 
> This idea also came from Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do.


 
Bruce Lee may have used it in his book, but the ideas you're talking about were used in Wing Chun before Bruce ever wrote them down. Many of the concepts Bruce used came from his training in Wing Chun.


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## Vajramusti (Jul 28, 2010)

This is a good forum- let's try to keep it that way.The thread really deteriorated which is usually not the case here.
I did not think what I saw of the video(s) as posted particularly striking.

joy chaudhuri


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## matsu (Jul 28, 2010)

*Just because you -think- you are monkeying the movements right, doesn't mean you are. My JKD instructor was anal in correcting every little thing. Hands off by a degree, elbows a quarter inch too wide, stance an inch too wide, etc. My Wing Chun instructor was just as particular in correcting things. My bookshelf is has 4 shelves over flowing with books by some seriously good folks. My video library, huge, and the Youtube bookmarks several thousand long. When I want to train, I find a flesh and blood instructor*

you can get into very bad habits by just following a pic or a video-even with the best will in the world and be the most natural athelete....you still gonna need to be *"shown"* the right way

*Tan Sau is a Tan Sau, doesn't matter what lineage you are from, there may be MORE ways to use Tan Sau that you haven't thought of, but the more ways you learn to use Tan Sau, in the end, it's just a Tan Sau. 
*gonna have to disagree on this one mate.BUT..... its only a tan sau if its done correctly.
for what it is worth.....so many times with the "written/text internet language" things can be misread misunderstood because of inflection of tone -or lack of it,sarcasm cannot be "heard" and so you cannot jump on what you thought the other person "said"....for example in my head you deff disrespected geezer in writing, even if you didnt mean it in that context,and you have to be very careful doing that.
so guys......chill out.
we are all on here to learn....just mytuppence
matsu


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## coffeerox (Jul 28, 2010)

> gonna have to disagree on this one mate.BUT..... its only a tan sau if its done correctly.



We're all going to have different opinions so you're welcome to yours.  However mine is that Wing Chun gives fewer basic tools but you use the concepts to apply your tools in such that you don't need thousands of techniques to counter thousands of different kinds of attacks.  Have you ever heard of Tan Sau Ng?


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## shaolin_al (Jul 29, 2010)

Sifu Joy Chadhuri I hae been told by a sifu I keep in touch with in L.A. named Dou Wanchun that you're skills are as good as can be and its an honor to have you on this forum to share ideas with us. I am a student of geezer and he is one of the best teachers I have been able to find in the martial arts community of Phoenix and I drive 27 miles one way just to train with him twice a week. Cofferox you're ideas are respected on this forum and no one was trying to attack you even if it seemed so. Making challenges over the internet is going to look wrong to anyone on these forums as we have the same goal as you which is to share ideas about the differences in wing chun and stay updated on ideas and concepts each of us learn. Don't waste so much energy on the internet trying to defend yourself if you feel threatened since you will never meet any of these people in person most likely anyways. Just be respectful because respect is given when it is earned.


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## cwk (Jul 29, 2010)

let's try to get this thread back on track.
I don't really have much to say about the clips. There's nothing wrong with them and I'm sure meng sifu is a good practitioner and teacher but nothing special jumps out at me.Then again it's only a short clip, I'd have to see the whole video to make an informed opinion.
I was taught to do bong sau the same way as Mook described with the Wu sau resting on the bong arm. The advantages of this are as Mook described in his post. I've had someone say that doing it like this makes it easier for the oponent to grab your wu sau but as I explained to them, bong sau changes on contact and doesn't stay there waiting to be grabbed so the chances of this hapening are very slim at best.
 The only advantage I can think of having the wu sau held further back is that if you were pulled by your opponent, it could help you to regain your own centre and help with facing if you are turned...maybe.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Maybe someone on here could enlighten me as to the advantages of holding wu sau further back?


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## Rion (Jul 29, 2010)

For me learning by video`s is a no no,because i can be slow sometimes and i never get the full reason behind something unless it`s explained to me a good few times or unless my Sifu keeps hiting me till i block right. And i would say it`s because of exp but everyone learns differently i guess some people can pick up little bits from a video and other`s need to be shown.


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## mook jong man (Jul 29, 2010)

cwk said:


> let's try to get this thread back on track.
> I don't really have much to say about the clips. There's nothing wrong with them and I'm sure meng sifu is a good practitioner and teacher but nothing special jumps out at me.Then again it's only a short clip, I'd have to see the whole video to make an informed opinion.
> I was taught to do bong sau the same way as Mook described with the Wu sau resting on the bong arm. The advantages of this are as Mook described in his post. _*I've had someone say that doing it like this makes it easier for the oponent to grab your wu sau but as I explained to them, bong sau changes on contact and doesn't stay there waiting to be grabbed so the chances of this hapening are very slim at best.*_
> The only advantage I can think of having the wu sau held further back is that if you were pulled by your opponent, it could help you to regain your own centre and help with facing if you are turned...maybe.
> ...


 
The Wu Sau's only there for a split second , just enough time to help deflect and then its latching their attacking arm down.

But its really  no drama if they try to grab it anyway , we just convert it to a low Bong Sau and now our other hand becomes the Wu Sau.
 So basically our arms just change roles and we go straight back into Lap Sau again.

I really can't think of any advantage to having the Wu Sau further back unless maybe your paranoid about getting hit in the throat perhaps.


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## shaolin_al (Jul 29, 2010)

I agree, having the wu sao back tends to be what a person wants to do naturally but in the end it can turn out to be bad form sometimes.


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## Tensei85 (Jul 29, 2010)

Wu Sau;

If I remember correctly I think they hold the Wu Sau back farther to cover the Height range easier, can't say I agree or disagree with it but that's the logic that they utilize. So in this case it's similar to what Mook Jong posted on blocking the throat area or whatnot. 




> However mine is that Wing Chun gives fewer basic tools but you use the concepts to apply your tools in such that you don't need thousands of techniques to counter thousands of different kinds of attacks. Have you ever heard of Tan Sau Ng?


 
Haha, coming previously from the lineage that claims Cheung Ng (&#24373;&#20116-Tan Sau Ng I don't think he is your best advocate here considering neither &#24373;&#20116; nor &#19968;&#22645;&#22823;&#24107; Yat Cham Dai Si can actually be verified as having existed. But that's not saying much because most people can't even agree if Wong Long existed in the 1600's or not for Northern Mantis.

But the concept of "Tan Sau Ng" is still of use & an interesting piece, regardless of fact or fiction. 

"So that being said I would be cautious of any type of information that is being generated as having existed before the 1850's, as really the only evidence we really have of ancestry is during the Hung Suen period". 

But I guess there will still be more research to come, hopefully one day we'll have more evidence to substantiate what really happened during the 1600's-1700's for Wing Chun evolution, absent of sale's pitches, marketing & ego boosters. Haha, that would be great!


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## mook jong man (Jul 29, 2010)

Lovely family the Ng's , and such an easy surname to spell.
There was Tan's twin brother Bong Sau Ng , the sister Fook Sau Ng and their doting parents father Wu and mother Jut.

They had some great parties at their house , but one time Bong _rolled up _to the party very drunk , Tan didn't like this and said " Listen mate , your really starting to _pierce_ me off"

The party started to run out of beer and Fook said " Hey Bong lend me some cash so I can go buy some more beer".

But Bong , being a real tight **** with money just _turned her away_ and said " Nah , go and ask mum and dad".

She went and asked Wu , but he was even more _guarded _than Bong with his money.
An argument ensued " You've spent your pay check at the race track again haven't you dad ? " said Fook.

"Stop trying to _control_ me Fook , its my money I'll do what I want with it "
said Wu.

Fook burst into tears , her mother Jut came over to console her daughter ,
" Don't worry about your father , he's just being a _jerk " _said Jut.

At that moment cousin Huen Sau walked in the front door and said " Look people , stop your petty bickering , go out to the backyard and enjoy the party , its much too beautiful an evening to stay _inside _cooped up in the house".


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## yak sao (Jul 29, 2010)

Mook, you nut....you really need to get out more.


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## mook jong man (Jul 30, 2010)

yak sao said:


> Mook, you nut....you really need to get out more.


 
I would , but then the Missus would just have all the locks changed over again while I'm out.   :lol:


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## profesormental (Jul 30, 2010)

Greetings.

About Wu Sao...

Surprisingly, Wu Sao is very important for alignment in preparation for many explosive movements. It should hit your chest for best effect, with your index finger right underneath your chin. It aligns your shoulder and hand to generate power for a stamping palm, thrusting Tan Sao and good cover for you chin if need be (specially to intercept it with a short Pak sao).

Easy to demonstrate, hard to do on text. Too many applications. Really improves explosiveness and power. It has significantly improved mine and my students speed, power and explosiveness.

Don't underestimate that little guarding hand...

About the videos... the more the merrier. Yet if it's worth it for you, go ahead and get them. I have reasons of my own not to, which are not personal at all. It is about the execution and the skills being taught.

Hope that helps.


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