# Mom Barred From Park For Breast Feeding



## MJS (Aug 3, 2010)

> EAST HAMPTON  
> A day at the beach for a nursing mother and four children last Tuesday turned into a confrontation with the town's parks department, followed by one with the police department this week, the woman and her husband said Monday.
> 
> Officials for both departments said Monday that the incident, at Sears Park on Lake Pocotopaug, is being investigated.
> ...


 
Link


So, who do you feel was in the wrong here?


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## MBuzzy (Aug 3, 2010)

If this was in the US then the park was in the wrong.  A breastfeeding mother is protected by law to breastfeed wherever she is authorized to be with the child.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 3, 2010)

Plus, this is what....the 4th case of this THIS YEAR.  Seriously, how dumb do you have to be at this point to try to remove someone from a public location.  Unless there is a posted rule, which does not conflict with state or federal law...chances are, you and your organization are going to be in the national news and get some complaints.

My wife breastfeeds and while we've never been removed, we do have friends and acquaintances who make it very clear that they aren't comfortable with it.  So.....what did the world do before Formula?


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 3, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> If this was in the US then the park was in the wrong.  A breastfeeding mother is protected by law to breastfeed wherever she is authorized to be with the child.



Not that I am aware of.

http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14389

However, Connecticut, where she was located, apparently has a state law allowing it, which may well override any local law to the contrary:



> Forty-four states, the* District of Columbia* and the *Virgin Islands *have laws with language specifically allowing women to breastfeed in any public or private location (*Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Washington, Wisconsin and Wyoming*).



Personally, I don't care much either way; I'm not offended, but I don't much care to see it, either.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 3, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Not that I am aware of.
> 
> http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14389
> 
> However, Connecticut, where she was located, apparently has a state law allowing it, which may well override any local law to the contrary:


 
Not sure what you mean here, your statements are a bit contradictory.  You said not that you're aware of, but posted the link showing that at least 44 states ALLOW you to breastfeed in any location that the mother and child are authorized to be.  Connecticut is one of the states that ALLOWS you to breastfeed any where that the mother is allowed to be....so, that is a law - state law or federal law, still a law.

There are of course states WITHOUT breastfeeding laws at all.  None prohibit it, some just don't have specific laws.  Which means that it can end up in the court of the owner or administrator of the location.  OR local government....but those people should be aware that law or no law, in today's climate, chances are, you'll end up on the news.


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## Big Don (Aug 3, 2010)

Discretion is the keyword missed by these "poor oppressed mothers". My little sister is currently breast feeding, but, knows there is a time and a place for it. She doesn't yank off her shirt in a park or shopping mall to feed the baby. If these "poor oppressed mothers" had some class and discretion, there wouldn't be stories like this ever.


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## crushing (Aug 3, 2010)

Big Don said:


> Discretion is the keyword missed by these "poor oppressed mothers". My little sister is currently breast feeding, but, knows there is a time and a place for it. She doesn't yank off her shirt in a park or shopping mall to feed the baby. If these "poor oppressed mothers" had some class and discretion, there wouldn't be stories like this ever.


 

:BSmeter:


Apparently, according to the park manager, the place to feed a baby is the toilet.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 3, 2010)

Big Don said:


> Discretion is the keyword missed by these "poor oppressed mothers". My little sister is currently breast feeding, but, knows there is a time and a place for it. She doesn't yank off her shirt in a park or shopping mall to feed the baby. If these "poor oppressed mothers" had some class and discretion, there wouldn't be stories like this ever.


 
Yeah - I don't know who the poor opressed mothers are, but the last story, a woman in a restaurant was asked to go to the restroom to feed her child.  So....she is supposed to what, sit on the toilet?  Stand in a corner?  

I agree that there should be some discretion, but feeding your baby at a park is not a stretch at all.  It is different if she is exposing herself or being blatant, but sorry, there is nothing wrong with feeding your kid.  

At some point, people are going to have to get used to this.  There is nothing obscene, inappropriate, or wrong with breastfeeding.  It was done like that for thousands of years, technology creates an alternative and all the sudden, mothers have to go stand in a corner or put a blanket over their head so that no one feels uncomfortable?!?

What gets me is that the same people who scream about not having their rights taken away and complain and political correctness are the same ones who want to ban breastfeeding in public at all.

Sorry, but I deal with this a lot and it is getting ridiculous, medical study upon medical study proves that it is the most healthy way to raise a child.  44 of 50 states have LAWS stating specifically that you CANNOT prevent a mother from breastfeeding.  Most of those states ALSO provide that a mother cannot be prosecuted for indecent exposure while feeding her child.  I do take this one a bit personnally, because it is archaic to lump all breastfeeding mothers into a group and say that they should "have some class and discretion."  

As far as I'm concerned, you don't like it, don't watch.


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## CoryKS (Aug 3, 2010)

I agree, moms _should_ be barred from parks for breast feeding.  That **** ain't right.

Wait, what?  Oh, it was the kid who was breast feeding?  Well, that's okay then.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 3, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> Not sure what you mean here, your statements are a bit contradictory.  You said not that you're aware of, but posted the link showing that at least 44 states ALLOW you to breastfeed in any location that the mother and child are authorized to be.  Connecticut is one of the states that ALLOWS you to breastfeed any where that the mother is allowed to be....so, that is a law - state law or federal law, still a law.
> 
> There are of course states WITHOUT breastfeeding laws at all.  None prohibit it, some just don't have specific laws.  Which means that it can end up in the court of the owner or administrator of the location.  OR local government....but those people should be aware that law or no law, in today's climate, chances are, you'll end up on the news.



You said that if the mother was in the US, then it was legal.  This would imply a federal law, or a uniform network of identical state laws.  I am not aware of any such federal law or blanket of identical state laws.  So...

In any case, I just don't see it as a big deal.  Public breastfeeding is like any other bodily function such as spitting or picking one's nose.  Odious, but people do it.  Life goes on.


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## crushing (Aug 3, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> In any case, I just don't see it as a big deal. Public breastfeeding is like any other bodily function such as spitting or picking one's nose. Odious, but people do it. Life goes on.


 
Maybe it's because of my own experiences in seeing my own children breastfeed and I've seen the closeness of mother and child while the mother continues to give and provide life through this nourishment. I've seen the mother fight through mastitis and illness and go through great difficulties to provide the child nourishment and a special bond and additional health benefits that come with breast milk. When I see a woman breastfeeding in public and think that is pretty cool because they are sharing that bond and benefits, and that the mother is willing to challenge some ridiculous concept of what decency is. But, I don't see breastfeeding as being at all similar to spitting or picking one's nose.


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## Steve (Aug 3, 2010)

I don't have a problem with it as long as it's discreet. 

That said, I think that when a baby is old enough to walk up and ask mama for her boob, he or she is old enough to drink from a cup. But that's just me. Two years old, and we're talking about a child that is walking, probably talking to some degree and drinking from sippy cups, eating pretty much what the rest of the family is eating and just doesn't need mama's milk for nutrition. There's no real physical need for it after the baby's first birthday.

Edit to add:  I also don't see it as being gross or unseemly.  I just see it as being a modesty thing, and like it or not, our country has some ideas about what's acceptable.  Boobs in public (as much as I'd prefer otherwise) just isn't considered okay by most Americans.  But it's not what I would characterize as a "bodily function such as spitting or picking one's nose."


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## MBuzzy (Aug 3, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You said that if the mother was in the US, then it was legal. This would imply a federal law, or a uniform network of identical state laws. I am not aware of any such federal law or blanket of identical state laws. So...
> 
> In any case, I just don't see it as a big deal. Public breastfeeding is like any other bodily function such as spitting or picking one's nose. Odious, but people do it. Life goes on.


 
Got it!  You're right, there is no federal law....well, kind of.  There IS a federal law that says that if you are on Federal Property of any kind, women can breastfeed in any location that they are authorized to be.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 3, 2010)

crushing said:


> But, I don't see breastfeeding as being at all similar to spitting or picking one's nose.



Or farting, I forgot farting. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




It's _physically_ similar.  It's a bodily function.  Normal, natural, and if you see it as beautiful and wonderful, more power to you.  I find it less offensive than the aforementioned, but it's on the same scale (for me).  To each their own, eh?  I don't want it to be banned, but I'm not especially thrilled to see it, either.


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## Stac3y (Aug 3, 2010)

crushing said:


> :BSmeter:
> 
> 
> Apparently, according to the park manager, the place to feed a baby is the toilet.



Thanks for calling BS on Big Don's remark. 

As for the park manager: I don't want to eat my lunch in a bathroom; babies shouldn't have to, either. Now, I'll admit that there are some women who do stupid stuff like leave their shirts open for their nipples to dry, but the vast majority of breastfeeding women feed their babies discreetly, showing much less skin than your average teenager. (NOt to mention the fact that people don't get upset about bare-chested men in public.) There's nothing disgusting, sexual, or prurient about nursing a child--if you think there is, the problem lies in your own psyche.

I was very discreet (nobody ever saw anything but the back of my babies' heads when I nursed in public), and I nursed my oldest for 13 months and my youngest for 3 and a half years. Infants need to eat when they need to eat--not at pre-set times. The only way to avoid breastfeeding in public is to sequester mother and child for a year or more. The the physical and psychological health benefits of breastfeeding are way more important than somebody accidentally getting an eyeful, anyway. /soapbox


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 3, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> But it's not what I would characterize as a "bodily function such as spitting or picking one's nose."



In what way is it different? It is a bodily function, agreed?  And it is an excretion.

Most of our excretory functions are performed in private.  Breathing and sweating are examples of excretory functions that we perform everywhere, but they are involuntary.  The rest we either perform in private or we generally wish people would.

When I was stationed in Okinawa, there were still villages with benjo ditches.  Public urination wasn't considered a private function.  Doesn't mean it was extra special nifty and cool, it just meant that their standards were a little different than ours.

I'm not squicked by breastfeeding in public, but I don't think it's something wonderful and lovely, either.  I don't run screaming out of the building if someone farts in a conference room.  We live with it; doesn't mean it's super great.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 3, 2010)

Big Don said:


> Discretion is the keyword missed by these "poor oppressed mothers". My little sister is currently breast feeding, but, knows there is a time and a place for it. She doesn't yank off her shirt in a park or shopping mall to feed the baby. If these "poor oppressed mothers" had some class and discretion, there wouldn't be stories like this ever.


 
Yank off her shirt? Exagerating a bit? I've only known a couple mothers to breastfeed, never did I see them pull off clothes to do it (much to my personal disappointment with one of said mothers). The baby's usually just tucked into her shirt; very little's actually visible. 

But it is interesting that you make personal attacks against the mothers for choosing to breastfeed. I see no lack of discretion involved; if a mother's chosen to breastfeed rather than use formula, they only have so much control over when the baby gets hungry. Unless you think they should just stay home and wait on Father to win the bread, like good little housewives.   Then it's not an issue of propriety, but the mothers daring to be with their children in public.  

The mother was confronted by the Parks Department and then the Police Department (although I can't really say I blame the PD, who were likely just responding to a call) for something that's protected by 44 out of 50 states! They have a legitimate complaint, and I'm sorry you fail to see it that way.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 3, 2010)

So, why wasn't this thread titled "Mom Barred for Baring"? :boing1:


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## Steve (Aug 3, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> In what way is it different? It is a bodily function, agreed? And it is an excretion.


You're intentionally baiting the subject and trying to stir the pot.  As you've made perfectly clear, we're all entitled to our opinions, but at this point, bringing it up in multiple posts on this thread, it's pretty clear you're trolling for an argument.   It's telling that you compare it to picking one's nose, rather than blowing one's nose.   One can be done politely and isn't a big deal to most people.  The other is almost universally considered pretty gross.  It's clear you went out of your way to shake things up.  

Where you see an excretion, I personally see it as having more to do with eating publicly than farting.   If you think it's distasteful, that's fine.  You've made that very clear.  I don't find it so.  Others clearly don't, either.  

Again, personally, the only thing that raised an eyebrow for me was the age of the baby.  I think that, in general, babies are a little old for formula or nursing when they can ask to be fed in complete sentences.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 3, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> You're intentionally baiting the subject and trying to stir the pot.



I didn't think I was.  I thought I was pointing out an internal inconsistency.  Hmmm, something about not being able to use each other's yardsticks that I mentioned in another thread - I should take my own advice.  Bowing out now.


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## Steve (Aug 3, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I didn't think I was. I thought I was pointing out an internal inconsistency. Hmmm, something about not being able to use each other's yardsticks that I mentioned in another thread - I should take my own advice. Bowing out now.


You're a riot, Bill, comparing feeding a baby to spitting, picking one's nose, and farting, stirring things up and then standing back like Urkel saying, "Did I do that?"


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## Big Don (Aug 3, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> Thanks for calling BS on Big Don's remark.
> 
> As for the park manager: I don't want to eat my lunch in a bathroom; babies shouldn't have to, either. Now, I'll admit that there are some women who do stupid stuff like leave their shirts open for their nipples to dry, but the vast majority of breastfeeding women feed their babies discreetly, showing much less skin than your average teenager. (NOt to mention the fact that people don't get upset about bare-chested men in public.) There's nothing disgusting, sexual, or prurient about nursing a child--if you think there is, the problem lies in your own psyche.
> 
> I was very discreet (nobody ever saw anything but the back of my babies' heads when I nursed in public), and I nursed my oldest for 13 months and my youngest for 3 and a half years. Infants need to eat when they need to eat--not at pre-set times. The only way to avoid breastfeeding in public is to sequester mother and child for a year or more. The the physical and psychological health benefits of breastfeeding are way more important than somebody accidentally getting an eyeful, anyway. /soapbox


How interesting that you, yourself practiced discretion and never had a problem breastfeeding wherever you happened to be, and yet, you take me to task for merely mentioning that discretion is called for.


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## MJS (Aug 3, 2010)

Big Don said:


> Discretion is the keyword missed by these "poor oppressed mothers". My little sister is currently breast feeding, but, knows there is a time and a place for it. She doesn't yank off her shirt in a park or shopping mall to feed the baby. If these "poor oppressed mothers" had some class and discretion, there wouldn't be stories like this ever.


 
IMO, I think discretion is the key word here.  I'm sure there're some women who dont think twice about doing this, and others that do take other people into consideration.  

I'm not familiar with the park in question, so I dont know if there was a more private, discrete area around, but I suppose this would be no different than changing the child.  Frankly, the sight of someone exposing a diaper full of ****, in public view is pretty gross.  Some people may not want their child to see this.  Taking the child to the bathroom, to the car or a more private area of the park, may've been a better option.


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## MJS (Aug 3, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> In what way is it different? It is a bodily function, agreed? And it is an excretion.
> 
> Most of our excretory functions are performed in private. Breathing and sweating are examples of excretory functions that we perform everywhere, but they are involuntary. The rest we either perform in private or we generally wish people would.
> 
> ...


 
Bodily function or not, there is still a right and wrong way to do something.  I work in a medium sized area.  Frankly, if I'm eating my dinner, and one of my co-workers decides to fart, I shouldn't have to smell ****, while I'm trying to eat.  Excuse yourself, go outside, to the bathroom, or hold it.


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## MJS (Aug 3, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> You're intentionally baiting the subject and trying to stir the pot. As you've made perfectly clear, we're all entitled to our opinions, but at this point, bringing it up in multiple posts on this thread, it's pretty clear you're trolling for an argument. It's telling that you compare it to picking one's nose, rather than blowing one's nose. One can be done politely and isn't a big deal to most people. The other is almost universally considered pretty gross. It's clear you went out of your way to shake things up.
> 
> Where you see an excretion, I personally see it as having more to do with eating publicly than farting. If you think it's distasteful, that's fine. You've made that very clear. I don't find it so. Others clearly don't, either.
> 
> Again, personally, the only thing that raised an eyebrow for me was the age of the baby. I think that, in general, babies are a little old for formula or nursing when they can ask to be fed in complete sentences.


 
The age of the kid caught my attention too, as well as the cop in the article.  I've been out and about, and have seen much worse things than this.  I simply dont look.  If someone else doesnt have enough class to take others into consideration, then what can I say.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 3, 2010)

2 isn't too old to breastfeed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breastfeeding

Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breastfeeding_in_public#United_States


Bottom line, it's natural, it's not indecent, folks need to get over their "boobie fetish".
It's also got a growing amount of legal protection. 
So, my opinion is, the mom's in the right, the cops/park not.


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## Steve (Aug 3, 2010)

For the record, I don't ever intend to get over my boobie fetish.  I'm a fan!


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## crushing (Aug 3, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> For the record, I don't ever intend to get over my boobie fetish.  I'm a fan!




You know that is pretty much the same as nasophilia, right?


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## girlbug2 (Aug 3, 2010)

I have breastfed my two kids for a total of 3 1/2 years, been around dozens of other breastfeeding moms that I was aware of, and countless others that I wasn't aware of, and NEVER have I seen one of them just "yank off their clothes" in public or in private. It doesn't happen. Women raised in this culture are far too conscious of the social taboos of exposing themselves, and take great pains to avoid letting anybody see even the tiniest scrap of breast when feeding their babies (ironic, that nobody gets riled up when non-breastfeeding ladies show plunging cleavage). There are specially made bras and outerwear that I have worn just for this purpose. Or, I have covered myself and the baby with a blanket when necessary.

In short, I call shenanigans on the park service.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 3, 2010)

MJS said:


> IMO, I think discretion is the key word here.  I'm sure there're some women who dont think twice about doing this, and others that do take other people into consideration.
> 
> I'm not familiar with the park in question, so I dont know if there was a more private, discrete area around, but I suppose this would be no different than changing the child.  Frankly, the sight of someone exposing a diaper full of ****, in public view is pretty gross.  Some people may not want their child to see this.  Taking the child to the bathroom, to the car or a more private area of the park, may've been a better option.



So the argument here is that mothers should use discretion.  So who defines that?  What is discretion?  To me, that means don't unnecessarily expose herself....I don't want my wife exposed as much as anyone else, I don't want anyone else looking at her!  But where did location come into discretion and where do we draw that line?  People use the slippery slope argument quite frequently.  So we start saying you can't do it around people who it offends.  Then you can't do it in public.  Then you have to be locked in a closet?  All because it makes you uncomfortable?  We're not talking about bodily excrement or anything unsanitary.

Bottom line here, I refuse to send or allow my wife to be sent to the toilet to feed our child.  There is nothing shameful about it and she shouldn't have to be ashamed or move somewhere else. 

People are just going to have to get used to it, it isn't going away, and lately EVERYONE who denies a woman or makes some comment is ending up with some very bad press and a bunch of angry protesters.  Not something any business or government agency wants around.  Oh yeah and all those people....ended up apologizing.



MJS said:


> Bodily function or not, there is still a right and wrong way to do something.  I work in a medium sized area.  Frankly, if I'm eating my dinner, and one of my co-workers decides to fart, I shouldn't have to smell ****, while I'm trying to eat.  Excuse yourself, go outside, to the bathroom, or hold it.



Ok - Farting and breastfeeding - two WAY different things.  One is EXCREMENT, one is nourishment.


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## Carol (Aug 3, 2010)

To borrow a criticism of PETA...

...its easier to harass young women nursing than it is to harass a bunch of bikers.

(no offense to bikers...love you guys/gals )

If the demographics of the average nursing mother was equivalent to the demographics of the average biker tough guy...we wouldn't be hearing much about this at all, methinks.


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## Steve (Aug 3, 2010)

crushing said:


> You know that is pretty much the same as nasophilia, right?



Lol.  You're right,  I guess, if we buy the nose picking/breast feeding analogy.   I think boobs are way sexier than noses though.  

Carol, that's an excellent point!


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## CanuckMA (Aug 3, 2010)

First off, I'll state that I'm in favour of allowing women to breastfeed wherever and whenever they please/need to.

However, I do see a distinction between breastfeeding an infant whose primary diet consyts of breast milk, and a 2 year old who should be mostly on solids. If the 2 year old gets hungry in public, there are other things that could be fed. Someone mentioned discretion, that is one example.

The park is still totally in the wrong.


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## MJS (Aug 4, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> So the argument here is that mothers should use discretion. So who defines that? What is discretion? To me, that means don't unnecessarily expose herself....I don't want my wife exposed as much as anyone else, I don't want anyone else looking at her! But where did location come into discretion and where do we draw that line? People use the slippery slope argument quite frequently. So we start saying you can't do it around people who it offends. Then you can't do it in public. Then you have to be locked in a closet? All because it makes you uncomfortable? We're not talking about bodily excrement or anything unsanitary.
> 
> Bottom line here, I refuse to send or allow my wife to be sent to the toilet to feed our child. There is nothing shameful about it and she shouldn't have to be ashamed or move somewhere else.
> 
> People are just going to have to get used to it, it isn't going away, and lately EVERYONE who denies a woman or makes some comment is ending up with some very bad press and a bunch of angry protesters. Not something any business or government agency wants around. Oh yeah and all those people....ended up apologizing.


 
In the end, I suppose it comes down to good, old fashioned common sense.  Of course, that will no doubt vary from person to person.  As I said, I've seen worse, so the sight of someone at the next table in the restaurant breast feeding isnt going to make me ask for the check early, grab my wife and get up and leave.  As I said, I simply wont look.  Could someone use a blanket, strategically placed so nothing was showing?  Of course.  OTOH, some will feel that they shouldn't have to.  IMO, those are the ones that are not exercising common sense.  But as I said, if the woman isnt worried about showing passerbys her breast, if her husband doesnt care, then thats fine.  Again, I wont look.  







> Ok - Farting and breastfeeding - two WAY different things. One is EXCREMENT, one is nourishment.


 
This was a comment from me in response to an earlier post by Bill.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 4, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Personally, I don't care much either way; I'm not offended, but I don't much care to see it, either.



The thing with breastfeeding is that you don't even see any breasts.
At least the women I've seen breast feed keep one breast covered, and the other one has a baby in front of it. This must mean that people complained just because they were reminded of the existence and biological purpose of breasts, rather than because they actually saw any.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 4, 2010)

I wonder what this talk about 'discretion' is about.
I've known several women who breastfeed, including friends of ours.

As someone already indicated: never have I seen women yanking off their clothes, swinging out their breasts and shouting 'suck on that'.
Instead, other than some ruffling of clothes, you won't see anything other than a baby whose mouth is physically at the same location as the nipple of the breast you're not seeing. And there are no sucking noises either.

So how much more discreet can you be, other than not being there at all? And considering that you won't actually see anything, what is there to be offended about?


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## MJS (Aug 4, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> The thing with breastfeeding is that you don't even see any breasts.
> At least the women I've seen breast feed keep one breast covered, and the other one has a baby in front of it. This must mean that people complained just because they were reminded of the existence and biological purpose of breasts, rather than because they actually saw any.


 
Interestingly enough, there was a photo in my paper today, stating that August is National Breastfeeding Awareness Month.   Anyways...theres a female in the pic, nursing a baby.  No blanket, its clear what the child is doing, however, more of her breast is showing, than normal, if she had her shirt on, covering herself.  Again, this is fine, but there may be some people who, when their kids see this and ask, "Mommy, Mommy...what is that lady doing over there??" that may take offense, because now they have to explain something to their child.


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## MJS (Aug 4, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I wonder what this talk about 'discretion' is about.
> I've known several women who breastfeed, including friends of ours.
> 
> As someone already indicated: never have I seen women yanking off their clothes, swinging out their breasts and shouting 'suck on that'.
> ...


 
Its very simple....use a blanket, excuse yourself and go to another room, etc.  People complain and ask..."What was this woman supposed to do, feed her kid in an unsanitary bathroom or in a hot car?"  Heres a question...how is the bathroom any more unsanitary than the park bench?  The kid is being held right?  

I've seen women breastfeeding, and they're covered appropriately.   Again, just because its a natural thing, doesnt mean it cant be done in a discreet fashion.  No different than burping or farting.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 4, 2010)

MJS said:


> Its very simple....use a blanket, excuse yourself and go to another room, etc. People complain and ask..."What was this woman supposed to do, feed her kid in an unsanitary bathroom or in a hot car?" Heres a question...how is the bathroom any more unsanitary than the park bench? The kid is being held right?


 
I'm assuming you've been in a park bathroom before?  They stink, there's usually no AC, often cramped, and gods only know what people have left in there.  All that's fine for a 2-minute bathroom stop, but feeding a kid in there?  I'd much rather feed the kid on the park bench.  At least there'd be a breeze.  

Anyway, what we've been arguing is that there's really nothing indecent about it. As others have pointed out:

1) There's state laws protecting breastfeeding in public in 44 out of 50 states.
2) Mothers who choose to breastfeed can only do so much to prevent the kid from getting hungry when out of the house.
3) Most bathing suits and low-cut tops show more boobie-flesh than breastfeeding does.  Furthermore, many maternity shirts (if that's an accurate phrase) are designed to reduce exposure and provide comfort.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 4, 2010)

About getting questions from your kids... that happens. And then you have to explain it. It's how parenting works. First time my daughter saw a friend of ours nursing he infant, she said '_what on earth are you doing?'_ which is a fair enough question. So we explained how it worked, and made the comparison with a mother sheep and her ewe (is that the correct word?) and that was the end of it.


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## Tez3 (Aug 4, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> About getting questions from your kids... that happens. And then you have to explain it. It's how parenting works. First time my daughter saw a friend of ours nursing he infant, she said '_what on earth are you doing?'_ which is a fair enough question. So we explained how it worked, and made the comparison with a mother sheep and her ewe (is that the correct word?) and that was the end of it.


 
The mother sheep is the ewe, the 'baby' is a lamb. 

MJS, I imagine the photo in the picture accompanying the article is probably more graphic than is usual when mothers breast feed, for journalistic purposes. I have seen many women breastfeed in public and have never seen more than would be seen anyway and in this country that's a lot! Our tabloid newspapers as many know are fond of the topless models, in fact being topless or nearly topless is quite common here. 
I find men are the most anti to breast feeding never mind in public, sometimes it's as if they think breasts are their toys, purely for their pleasure and seeing them put to the use they were intended for makes them jealous! Not all men I hasten to add, the more neanderthal among us. Women breast feed and babies needs come first so if you see a woman breastfeeding live with it, look away if it upsets you but ask yourself why and answer honestly.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 4, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> Yeah - I don't know who the poor opressed mothers are, but the last story, a woman in a restaurant was asked to go to the restroom to feed her child.  So....she is supposed to what, sit on the toilet?  Stand in a corner?
> 
> I agree that there should be some discretion, but feeding your baby at a park is not a stretch at all.  It is different if she is exposing herself or being blatant, but sorry, there is nothing wrong with feeding your kid.
> 
> ...



Bravo. As a husband who has supported his wife as she breastfed two children to 22  and 26 months, I had to deal with this exact issue numerous times. My wife was even shut down at work and she needed to remind her employer of her legal rights under the law. Keep up the good fight. It's worth it!


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## MJS (Aug 4, 2010)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> I'm assuming you've been in a park bathroom before? They stink, there's usually no AC, often cramped, and gods only know what people have left in there. All that's fine for a 2-minute bathroom stop, but feeding a kid in there? I'd much rather feed the kid on the park bench. At least there'd be a breeze.


 
I guess they all vary then, because what you're describing sounds more like a portapotty than anything else that I've seen.  All of the park bathrooms that I've been in, while not 5,000sq ft., are not sardine cans either.  Again, as I said, the mother is holding the child, not placing him/her down.  Then again, we're harping on the bathroom arent we?  I mean, it was mentioned and people are taking it to the bank.  I'm sure we could all think of any number of places.

Of course, I'm sure you've also read my posts in which I said that I was not offended by someone breast feeding.   Lets not take a few negative things that I've said and make me out to be some anti breast feeding person.  I simply said that people should use some common sense.  Of course, we all know thats lacking with some people in the world.


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## MJS (Aug 4, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> About getting questions from your kids... that happens. And then you have to explain it. It's how parenting works. First time my daughter saw a friend of ours nursing he infant, she said '_what on earth are you doing?'_ which is a fair enough question. So we explained how it worked, and made the comparison with a mother sheep and her ewe (is that the correct word?) and that was the end of it.


 
I agree, however, its a fact that there're some parents out there in the world, who, instead of teahcing their kids about life, try to shelter them.  I mean, take sex for example.  Instead of properly educating their kids on the 'birds and the bees' they shelter them, like some glass egg, thinking that their kids will never be exposed to such a 'horrible' thing. LOL!  Come on now...we all know that you can't turn on the tv today, without seeing someone in bed, kissing, having sex, etc.


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## MJS (Aug 4, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> The mother sheep is the ewe, the 'baby' is a lamb.
> 
> MJS, I imagine the photo in the picture accompanying the article is probably more graphic than is usual when mothers breast feed, for journalistic purposes. I have seen many women breastfeed in public and have never seen more than would be seen anyway and in this country that's a lot! Our tabloid newspapers as many know are fond of the topless models, in fact being topless or nearly topless is quite common here.
> I find men are the most anti to breast feeding never mind in public, sometimes it's as if they think breasts are their toys, purely for their pleasure and seeing them put to the use they were intended for makes them jealous! Not all men I hasten to add, the more neanderthal among us. Women breast feed and babies needs come first so if you see a woman breastfeeding live with it, look away if it upsets you but ask yourself why and answer honestly.


 
The photo that I mentioned today, does not seem to be on the papers site.  Not sure if it will be or not.  The only pic that we have to go on, is the one with the link that I provided.  Anyways...I can't comment on whether or not it was intentionally more revealing or not.  I guess only the woman and photographer could verify that.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 4, 2010)

Personally, I've yet to find a restroom I would want to dine in.


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## Nomad (Aug 4, 2010)

It's a boob.  Get over it.  It's also the one time it's actually performing the function it was designed for... feeding a child.

Oh yeah, I forgot the disaster that occurred and obviously damaged millions of viewers during the infamous "Wardrobe Malfunction" a few years back.  Likely this was the real cause of the financial meltdown that happened shortly thereafter...

This country is _*SOOOOOOOOOO*_ uptight.


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## Stac3y (Aug 4, 2010)

As I used to say, if anyone gave me the hairy eyeball while I was (discreetly) nursing my babies, "Well, excuse ME for being a MAMMAL!" 

'Cos we ARE, y'know.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 4, 2010)

Ok - people keep throwing around this "use discretion and common sense," well, I would challenge ANY of you to define that.  I mean, let's make it explicit, exactly what are we dealing with here?  My definition of discretion is obviously different from others.  When my wife feeds, she doesn't cover up or use a blanket, but you CAN'T tell.  Today she feed the baby while talking to someone and when she was done and I took him, they asked why I was taking him and we told him that she just fed the baby.  He had no clue it was going on in front of him.  When we visited my parents.  My dad walked in to the living room and said "I thought you were going to feed the baby." to which my wife said "I am feeding him."  

I would actually like a definitive list - in the minds of the people who are saying how important discretion is, WHERE can women feed and under what circumstances?  

From reading this, from what I know, and from seeing countless mothers breastfeed, either you have all had experiences where you were flashed or it isn't about discretion and HOW it is done....it is just that you're uncomfortable with the idea, because I have NEVER seen a woman just flop her breast out and be blatant about showing skin.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 4, 2010)

Ok, so I went to Epcot today with my family and some friends.  My wife and her friend both breastfeed our kids.  My son is 6 months and theirs is 5 months.  My wife and our friend breastfed our babies in the Italian restaurant, on a ride (one of the boat rides for kids), and on a few benches outside. 

For those who say that women should go to the restroom....this is a Disney park and there aren't like, benches or seats or couches in restrooms, so what is the intention?  Go to the bathroom and stand in front of the sink?  Oh, or maybe in a stall?  Where exactly shall they do it?  Walk around until they find a bathroom with a place to sit?  Or just stand?  How about the babies that take 20-30 mins to eat?  I suppose standing and holding your baby in the restroom is perfectly fine?  Sorry, just not an option; at least until restrooms or public places have standard locations equipped for breastfeeding...but then, why waste the money when the bench is just fine??

Last, in Epcot, I counted at least 12 women breastfeeding.  All were discreet, in that you couldn't see anything other than the back of the baby's head, only 1 was using a cover (VERY young baby), and they were all in public.  On benches, in the park, in restaurants...The point here is that it is getting more and more common.  Those who are uncomfortable are really going to have to learn to deal with it.  It isn't going away and chances are, you'll see more of it and women will feel more free to feed in public.


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## Carol (Aug 4, 2010)

If you ever need proof of how we as a nation have an unhealthy obsession with food....look at how the outcry over mothers that breast feed in public completely dwarfs the outcry over mothers that sometimes substitute skim milk (alone) for infant formula so their kid doesn't grow up fat.


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## crushing (Aug 5, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> Last, in Epcot, I counted at least 12 women breastfeeding. All were discreet, in that you couldn't see anything other than the back of the baby's head, only 1 was using a cover (VERY young baby), and they were all in public. On benches, in the park, in restaurants...The point here is that it is getting more and more common. Those who are uncomfortable are really going to have to learn to deal with it. It isn't going away and chances are, you'll see more of it and women will feel more free to feed in public.


 
Hope your wandering eyes don't get you in too much trouble!  I've found a pair of sunglasses helps.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 5, 2010)

I was walking through the Mall of America a couple of days a go and there were breastfeeding women everywhere.  Most people hardly even notice because the moms aren't taking off their shirts and flopping out boob.  Did you know they have special clothing and bras that are made for breastfeeding?  One snap and kid is on the teat before you even know it.  If you don't know what to look for, you probably wouldn't see anything different them mom holding the baby close to her bosom.  

Now, let's say we are at the beach or at the park and it's really hot and baby is cranky and needs food.  Do you really want to be that asshat that complains because you saw a little flash of skin?  Give me a break.  Breastfeeding is a tough (and worthwhile job) and for crying out loud, our society needs to do everything it can to encourage healthy behavior.  

If I witnessed this scene in the park, I'd tell the prudes to mind their own business and really think about what they are objecting to.  Hopefully, they'd be drinking a soda or holding a McDonalds bag and I'd really let them have it.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 5, 2010)

Nah, in a park that crowded, it is hard to avoid looking at people.  Plus, to be quite honest, if I didn't have a wife and friends who breastfeed, I probably would not have known what they were doing.  I think that a lot of people really think that when a woman is breastfeeding she wears a big neon sign.  Most of them are so good at it that you can't tell.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 5, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> If I witnessed this scene in the park, I'd tell the prudes to mind their own business and really think about what they are objecting to. Hopefully, they'd be drinking a soda or holding a McDonalds bag and I'd really let them have it.


 
I think that my new attitude is that if people can complain about my wife breastfeeding, then I can complain about a 400 lb person eating fried chicken and ice cream because THAT disgusts me and makes me uncomfortable.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 5, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> I think that my new attitude is that if people can complain about my wife breastfeeding, then I can complain about a 400 lb person eating fried chicken and ice cream because THAT disgusts me and makes me uncomfortable.



Yeah, it's ironic and sad that people will complain about parents who give their children the absolute best food possible and then say nothing about shoving their kids full of poison at CrackDonalds.  I figure that if people really want to make a scene about breastfeeding, it's okay to make an equally large scene about this irony.

Their high horse ain't got nothing on mine.  LOL!


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> Ok - people keep throwing around this "use discretion and common sense," well, I would challenge ANY of you to define that. I mean, let's make it explicit, exactly what are we dealing with here? My definition of discretion is obviously different from others. When my wife feeds, she doesn't cover up or use a blanket, but you CAN'T tell. Today she feed the baby while talking to someone and when she was done and I took him, they asked why I was taking him and we told him that she just fed the baby. He had no clue it was going on in front of him. When we visited my parents. My dad walked in to the living room and said "I thought you were going to feed the baby." to which my wife said "I am feeding him."
> 
> I would actually like a definitive list - in the minds of the people who are saying how important discretion is, WHERE can women feed and under what circumstances?
> 
> From reading this, from what I know, and from seeing countless mothers breastfeed, either you have all had experiences where you were flashed or it isn't about discretion and HOW it is done....it is just that you're uncomfortable with the idea, because I have NEVER seen a woman just flop her breast out and be blatant about showing skin.


In general I agree with you that most women ARE discreet.  I can tell you what I think of, and where a lot of my comments come from, is a situation where I was on a metro bus in Seattle.  It was a while back... over a decade ago when I was in college.  I was sitting at the back, chatting with a lady who had a toddler...  3 or 4 years old.  Nothing weird at all until he decided he was hungry.  While the mom kept talking, he literally pulled her shirt open (it was a loose shirt and he just pulled the neck down to expose her breast) and then pulled her boob out of her bra all the while telling her that he was hungry.  She literally didn't miss a beat.  She kept talking. After he exposed her breast, she scooped him up to eat.

THAT is what I would characterize as indiscreet (and creepy).  The way I've seen most moms handle it, I have no problems.


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## MJS (Aug 5, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> Ok - people keep throwing around this "use discretion and common sense," well, I would challenge ANY of you to define that. I mean, let's make it explicit, exactly what are we dealing with here? My definition of discretion is obviously different from others. When my wife feeds, she doesn't cover up or use a blanket, but you CAN'T tell. Today she feed the baby while talking to someone and when she was done and I took him, they asked why I was taking him and we told him that she just fed the baby. He had no clue it was going on in front of him. When we visited my parents. My dad walked in to the living room and said "I thought you were going to feed the baby." to which my wife said "I am feeding him."
> 
> I would actually like a definitive list - in the minds of the people who are saying how important discretion is, WHERE can women feed and under what circumstances?
> 
> From reading this, from what I know, and from seeing countless mothers breastfeed, either you have all had experiences where you were flashed or it isn't about discretion and HOW it is done....it is just that you're uncomfortable with the idea, because I have NEVER seen a woman just flop her breast out and be blatant about showing skin.


 
Discreet:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discreet

You just said it about your wife, I believe Stac3y said it as well, in addition to myself.  So you just said that your wife doesnt cover up, but nobody can tell shes feeding.  THAT is discreet!  Lets not turn this into some federal case here, as its really simple....if you can do something without drawing a ton of attention to yourself, that IMHO is being discreet.

Common Sense:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/common sense

Again, this isn't rocket science here.  Solid, sound judgement.  

Ex: Getting behind the wheel of a car, after you've had alot to drink:  No common sense.

You've obviously had way too much to drink, so rather than drive yourself, you have someone drive you or you call a cab: Common Sense.  

As I said, we're starting to make way too much of this.  Its pretty clear cut if you ask me.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 5, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> In general I agree with you that most women ARE discreet.  I can tell you what I think of, and where a lot of my comments come from, is a situation where I was on a metro bus in Seattle.  It was a while back... over a decade ago when I was in college.  I was sitting at the back, chatting with a lady who had a toddler...  3 or 4 years old.  Nothing weird at all until he decided he was hungry.  While the mom kept talking, he literally pulled her shirt open (it was a loose shirt and he just pulled the neck down to expose her breast) and then pulled her boob out of her bra all the while telling her that he was hungry.  She literally didn't miss a beat.  She kept talking. After he exposed her breast, she scooped him up to eat.
> 
> THAT is what I would characterize as indiscreet (and creepy).  The way I've seen most moms handle it, I have no problems.



See, I'm way cool with that.  I would rather the kid nurse on demand as long as he/she wishes rather then suck on a bottle of tooth decay.  The longer a child nurses, the better, that's what study after study shows.  How society chooses to react to it is something we need to address.  Besides, extended nursing is quite common all across the world.  

At any rate, I don't think moms even need to be "discreet" about it.  The adults around need to change their attitudes because breastfeeding is literally one of the best things parents can do for their children.  It's far more important then choosing to be offended by an occasional flash of boob.  

Getting "creeped out" by it is a personal issue, there is nothing wrong with what the woman did.  This is not the same as a woman flashing her boobs in public or any of the other things that people get upset about when it comes to nudity.  I think that if moms nurse with confidence and convenience when their children need food, society will eventually grow up.

Three cheers for the moms who give their children the best and are willing to put aside silly societal mores in order to do so.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> See, I'm way cool with that. I would rather the kid nurse on demand as long as he/she wishes rather then suck on a bottle of tooth decay. The longer a child nurses, the better, that's what study after study shows. How society chooses to react to it is something we need to address. Besides, extended nursing is quite common all across the world.
> 
> At any rate, I don't think moms even need to be "discreet" about it. The adults around need to change their attitudes because breastfeeding is literally one of the best things parents can do for their children. It's far more important then choosing to be offended by an occasional flash of boob.
> 
> ...


Okay.  And all of this is your opinion.  Seriously.  Study after study also shows that after 12 months old, a child no longer needs the nutrition offered by formula or breast milk.  At that point, it's no longer biological.  It's psychological and emotional, which gets much, much more gray.

The situation I mentioned was, whatever else you might believe, indiscreet.  MBuzzy asked for an example.  I offered one and I think, whether you agree with her or not, you would agree that she was indiscreet.  You don't seem to think she should have to be indiscreet, but that's beside the point.  

This being Seattle, I'm sure that many people around here would applaud that woman.  Personally, and I said it earlier in the thread, 2 year old kids should in most cases be drinking from a cup, and eating solid foods with a fork or spoon.  I wouldn't call out parents who choose to do otherwise, but certainly by 3 or 4, we're bordering on a creepy kind of codependence.  I stand by that statement, personal or not.  I never intended it to be taken otherwise.  At 3 or 4 years old, we're no longer talking about nursing a baby.


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## Stac3y (Aug 5, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Okay. And all of this is your opinion. Seriously. Study after study also shows that after 12 months old, a child no longer needs the nutrition offered by formula or breast milk. At that point, it's no longer biological. It's psychological and emotional, which gets much, much more gray.
> <snip>
> 
> Personally, and I said it earlier in the thread, 2 year old kids should in most cases be drinking from a cup, and eating solid foods with a fork or spoon. I wouldn't call out parents who choose to do otherwise, but certainly by 3 or 4, we're bordering on a creepy kind of codependence. I stand by that statement, personal or not. I never intended it to be taken otherwise. At 3 or 4 years old, we're no longer talking about nursing a baby.


 
Please do some more research. The prevailing opinion among experts on nursing is that kids should wean when THEY are ready, not when it's convenient for mom. That's why one of mine weaned at 13 months, and the other at 3.5 years. That's when they were ready. There's nothing creepy or codependent about it, and psychological needs and emotional bonding are every bit as important as nutrition. Once a child starts eating solid food, nursing generally becomes a once or twice a day event. My younger child nursed only at bedtime from around a year on. Additionally, nursing past a year old continues to confer immunity and provide protection against allergy and asthma. 

Both of my sons are extremely well-adjusted, high achievers, whose behavior is considered exemplary by their teachers and other adults (though they can be a bit of a pain at home, like all kids.) Neither one is at all a mama's boy, either. You can get more information on breastfeeding at http://lllusa.org/.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> Please do some more research. The prevailing opinion among experts on nursing is that kids should wean when THEY are ready, not when it's convenient for mom. That's why one of mine weaned at 13 months, and the other at 3.5 years. That's when they were ready. There's nothing creepy or codependent about it, and psychological needs and emotional bonding are every bit as important as nutrition. Once a child starts eating solid food, nursing generally becomes a once or twice a day event. My younger child nursed only at bedtime from around a year on. Additionally, nursing past a year old continues to confer immunity and provide protection against allergy and asthma.
> 
> Both of my sons are extremely well-adjusted, high achievers, whose behavior is considered exemplary by their teachers and other adults (though they can be a bit of a pain at home, like all kids.) Neither one is at all a mama's boy, either. You can get more information on breastfeeding at http://lllusa.org/.


At this point, maybe I should just step back myself.  I never said that psychological or emotional needs are unimportant.  I said that at 12 months old, the biological need isn't there.   I also said that at 3 or 4, it's codependence.  I still stand by that.  It's like kids at that age who still use a bottle.   Of course, this is speaking only for me and my kids.  I don't presume to speak on behalf of any other parents.  Take it for what it's worth.

I would like to back up a little and just ask the question.  If you were on a public bus, and a 3 or 4 year old toddler literally pulls his mom's boob out of her bra, telling her in a complete sentence that he's hungry, would you consider that discreet or indiscreet?


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## Flea (Aug 5, 2010)

From the Onion's article on Janet Jackson a few years back ...  :angel:

Personally I think the whole breast-feeding squeamishness says more about our discomfort as a society with sexuality.  The whole point of breasts is for feeding offspring.  As a culture we have sexualized that body part arbitrarily, and therefore making it visible in public is "obscene" simply by its miscategorization.  The unspoken agreement being that anything sexual is *bad* and must be hidden from view lest our eyes be stricken with blindness from the awfulness of it all.  

Not that it'll happen, but I think it would be enormously helpful for Americans to have an open discussion about what we constitute as sexual, what aspects of it are "good" and "bad," and why.


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## Stac3y (Aug 5, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I would like to back up a little and just ask the question. If you were on a public bus, and a 3 or 4 year old toddler literally pulls his mom's boob out of her bra, telling her in a complete sentence that he's hungry, would you consider that discreet or indiscreet?


 
Discreet or indiscreet isn't really the question, here. A 3 or 4 year old should have been taught by that time (in fact, much sooner), that nursing is not self-serve. Asking in a complete sentence if s/he can nurse, and respecting the mother's authority when she says either yes or no, is appropriate behavior for a child of that age. For toddler (NOT infants) establishing nursing as something that is asked for and given only in appropriate circumstances is important for teaching children to respect other people's bodies and develop boundaries between themselves and others. 

Now, if the 3 or 4 year old says, "Mama, I'm hungry, may I nurse?" I have no problem with the child being allowed to nurse on the bus, and I don't think it's indiscreet. Yanking Mom's breast out of her shirt is a whole other story, and indicates a serious lack of corrective guidance in the home. I've heard of this behavior, but I've never seen it, even here in hippy-dippy Austin. Nursing a toddler doesn't mean letting him/her treat you disrespectfully.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> Discreet or indiscreet isn't really the question, here. A 3 or 4 year old should have been taught by that time (in fact, much sooner), that nursing is not self-serve. Asking in a complete sentence if s/he can nurse, and respecting the mother's authority when she says either yes or no, is appropriate behavior for a child of that age. For toddler (NOT infants) establishing nursing as something that is asked for and given only in appropriate circumstances is important for teaching children to respect other people's bodies and develop boundaries between themselves and others.
> 
> Now, if the 3 or 4 year old says, "Mama, I'm hungry, may I nurse?" I have no problem with the child being allowed to nurse on the bus, and I don't think it's indiscreet. Yanking Mom's breast out of her shirt is a whole other story, and indicates a serious lack of corrective guidance in the home. I've heard of this behavior, but I've never seen it, even here in hippy-dippy Austin. Nursing a toddler doesn't mean letting him/her treat you disrespectfully.


Thanks, Stacey.  Discreet or not was exactly the question MBuzzy asked, so it was the point of the story.  Outside of that, I agree with you that there are other things going on.

I'm still not convinced that there's any legitimate or even healthy psychological/emotional reason for a 3+ year old to be nursing, but I'm neither a mom nor a pediatrician, so I'll cede the point.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 5, 2010)

Flea said:


> Personally I think the whole breast-feeding squeamishness says more about our discomfort as a society with sexuality.  The whole point of breasts is for feeding offspring.  As a culture we have sexualized that body part arbitrarily, and therefore making it visible in public is "obscene" simply by its miscategorization.  The unspoken agreement being that anything sexual is *bad* and must be hidden from view lest our eyes be stricken with blindness from the awfulness of it all.
> 
> Not that it'll happen, but I think it would be enormously helpful for Americans to have an open discussion about what we constitute as sexual, what aspects of it are "good" and "bad," and why.



While I agree with you, it is nothing new.  There was a time when it was obscene for women to show their calves, because that was known as the most sensual part of the female figure.  At one point it was the neck and I'm sure it will continue to evolve.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2010)

MBuzzy, do you understand now what is meant by discretion?  Do you agree?


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## MBuzzy (Aug 5, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> MBuzzy, do you understand now what is meant by discretion?  Do you agree?



Sorry, I had to put the baby to bed!

Well, first off, you had one bad experience years ago and that stinks that this person seems to have shaped your opinion of breastfeeding women.  I most certainly understand the definition (Thanks MJS  ) of the WORD discretion.  Not what I was talking about though.

An example is great....and I agree, there is plenty wrong with that example.  I think the child was a bit old (although that choice is up to the mother) and I think that the mother should have taught her child better.  Definitely indiscreet.  In fact, just by discussing, we have already pointed out that even in THAT situation, there was a line where she could have been discreet and where she was not, even with it being a 4 year old kid.  But then based on that, I could say that "Martial Arts instructors should really stop just handing out belts for nothing" based on a single school.  One bad instructor DOES NOT characterize all others.  In fact, I would say that the vast majority of breastfeeding mothers ARE very discreet.

The point that I was really trying to make is that DEFINING discreet is not going to work in this case.  I mean, I know what discreet is and I know what common sense is, but those definitions ARE NOT universally interpreted.  Everyone has different thresholds for those things.  

When I say that I challenge someone to DEFINE IT, I mean let's put some explicit limits on it.  But that is kind of rhetorical, because even if you apply your limits, then we can argue for 4 more pages about where those limits are.  It is going to be different for everyone.  One person may think that discreet is not showing any skin, another may say that discreet is always moving yourself from where others can see and others may think that feeding their 4 year old child on a bus is perfectly discreet.  I would disagree....but that is how someone may feel.

Bottom line here is that saying that women should be discreet honestly accomplishes nothing.  I feel that my wife is VERY discreet, others disagree.  The manager that kicks a woman out of a Johnny Rockets for breastfeeding obviously thought that she wasn't discreet.  LUCKILY, the laws that do exist PROTECT a woman and allow her to feed anywhere that she wants in fact, many of them go so far as to say that as long as she's feeding, she CANNOT be prosecuted for indecent exposure.  It seems that the lawmakers have ruled on what is discreet and what isn't.  Basically, you can feed your child, they didn't add stipulations that say "You can feed your child, but only if no one around you can see skin."


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> Sorry, I had to put the baby to bed!


Me too.  Although she goes to be pretty early.





> Well, first off, you had one bad experience years ago and that stinks that this person seems to have shaped your opinion of breastfeeding women.  I most certainly understand the definition (Thanks MJS  ) of the WORD discretion.  Not what I was talking about though.


NO!  Jesus Christ, you're missing the entire point.  She didn't shape my opinion of breastfeeding women.  She DID very clearly shape my opinion of an indiscreet breastfeeding woman.  You "challenged" anyone to define the term.  I gave you a perfect example.  Outside of that, though, I've gone out of my way to make it very clear that I have no problem with women who nurse their babies in public.  It's just not a big deal... unless the woman goes out of her way to be indiscreet.


> An example is great....and I agree, there is plenty wrong with that example.  I think the child was a bit old (although that choice is up to the mother) and I think that the mother should have taught her child better.  Definitely indiscreet.  In fact, just by discussing, we have already pointed out that even in THAT situation, there was a line where she could have been discreet and where she was not, even with it being a 4 year old kid.  But then based on that, I could say that "Martial Arts instructors should really stop just handing out belts for nothing" based on a single school.  One bad instructor DOES NOT characterize all others.  In fact, I would say that the vast majority of breastfeeding mothers ARE very discreet.[/qjuote]And honestly, I can't think of anyone so far who would disagree with you that the vast majority of breastfeeding mothers ARE very discreet.  It's the ones who aren't to whom I'm referring.  And there are some.  That's all.  And those who aren't discreet... should be.  Wouldn't you agree?
> 
> 
> > The point that I was really trying to make is that DEFINING discreet is not going to work in this case.  I mean, I know what discreet is and I know what common sense is, but those definitions ARE NOT universally interpreted.  Everyone has different thresholds for those things.
> ...


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## Tez3 (Aug 6, 2010)

When we have young drunk women pulling their tops up and showing off their boobs in pubs, clubs and the street most nights of the week, the subject of breast feeding in public seems a bit tame. If you only see boobs you can consider yourself lucky, skirts go up and down with increasing monotony leaving nothing to the imagination. I do wonder why it's the chubbier girls that feel the need to expose so much flesh though.
I wouldn't breastfeed beyond a year, there's nothing at that ppoint in breast milk they can't get in proper food. I find 4 years olds breast feeding to be a bit of a middle class fad tbh. It's difficult here as they start school at four, can't imagine teachers allowing mums in to feed their children.


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## Blade96 (Aug 6, 2010)

think the park wrong in kicking out the mum, but i do find breast feeding gross. Why? because lovers also use the nipples when making whoopee and then a mum gives that same nipple to a baby....:barf:


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## Tez3 (Aug 6, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> think the park wrong in kicking out the mum, but i do find breast feeding gross. Why? because lovers also use the nipples when making whoopee and then a mum gives that same nipple to a baby....:barf:


 


Well, you could ask yourself why nature had us making love  in the first place. . . . . . to make babies! Also why are breasts there?
If I see a mother breastfeeding my first reaction is one of warmth at a picture of love. It's one of those things that is a true symbol of how humans can be instead of how we are sometimes, it's the opposite of wars, cruelty, unhumanity and horror. It's love and us at our best. It's hope.
You may never understand unless you have put your baby to the nipple and looked into that baby's eyes and lost yourself in them, it is the most overwhelming emotion you will ever feel. There is nothing to compare. perhaps it works with bottles, I don't know but certainly that connection is missing, it is fundamental and goes to the very core of your being and you will never understand why something so tiny can do this to you but that bond is there for life and maybe even beyond. Religious or not there's no doubting this a miracle. Love and life.


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## CoryKS (Aug 6, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> think the park wrong in kicking out the mum, but i do find breast feeding gross. Why? because lovers also use the nipples when making whoopee and then a mum gives that same nipple to a baby....:barf:


 
Not sure if serious.


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## Blade96 (Aug 6, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Not sure if serious.



im serious. Its gross to me. the idea of it.

Of course maybe i shouldnt even be in this thread in first place. since Im probably the only one here who doesnt like babies. 

I didnt agree with what the park did with the Mum, though.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> im serious. Its gross to me. the idea of it.
> 
> Of course maybe i shouldnt even be in this thread in first place. since Im probably the only one here who doesnt like babies.
> 
> I didnt agree with what the park did with the Mum, though.


 

I think you may want to have a good think about that, the idea of a women being merely for a mans pleasure I find somewhat disturbing. it may mean you aren't comfortable with your own body if you reject what your body is made for. There's no reason breasts can't be for pleasure as well but the primary function is to feed babies and most women are happy with their 'dual use'. To be grossed out by breast feeding is a little odd.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 9, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> There's no reason breasts can't be for pleasure as well but the primary function is to feed babies and most women are happy with their 'dual use'. To be grossed out by breast feeding is a little odd.


 
In all fairness, the majority of the time guys spend thinking about women's breasts is NOT in the context of feeding babies, so it's likely that seeing them used for that purpose may just be plain ackward.  Along that line of thought, I wonder if there'd be a significant change in views on breastfeeding between bachelors and fathers, the latter being more exposed to nature's intended use.


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> At this point, maybe I should just step back myself. I never said that psychological or emotional needs are unimportant. I said that at 12 months old, the biological need isn't there. I also said that at 3 or 4, it's codependence. I still stand by that. It's like kids at that age who still use a bottle. Of course, this is speaking only for me and my kids. I don't presume to speak on behalf of any other parents. Take it for what it's worth.
> 
> I would like to back up a little and just ask the question. If you were on a public bus, and a 3 or 4 year old toddler literally pulls his mom's boob out of her bra, telling her in a complete sentence that he's hungry, would you consider that discreet or indiscreet?


 
IMO, I'd find that a bit indiscreet, however, I'm not going to hop off the bus prior to my destination, nor will I say something to her or to the driver.  Of course, I'd also wonder what the hell a 3 or 4 yo child is doing breast feeding in the first place. LOL!


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> Discreet or indiscreet isn't really the question, here. A 3 or 4 year old should have been taught by that time (in fact, much sooner), that nursing is not self-serve. Asking in a complete sentence if s/he can nurse, and respecting the mother's authority when she says either yes or no, is appropriate behavior for a child of that age. For toddler (NOT infants) establishing nursing as something that is asked for and given only in appropriate circumstances is important for teaching children to respect other people's bodies and develop boundaries between themselves and others.
> 
> Now, if the 3 or 4 year old says, "Mama, I'm hungry, may I nurse?" I have no problem with the child being allowed to nurse on the bus, and I don't think it's indiscreet. Yanking Mom's breast out of her shirt is a whole other story, and indicates a serious lack of corrective guidance in the home. I've heard of this behavior, but I've never seen it, even here in hippy-dippy Austin. Nursing a toddler doesn't mean letting him/her treat you disrespectfully.


 
Actually, I think that it is the question, seeing that this is what sparked the incident in the first place.  Whether or not a 2, 3 or 4yo should be nursing was, IMO, the potatoes, to the main meat of the original article.


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> When we have young drunk women pulling their tops up and showing off their boobs in pubs, clubs and the street most nights of the week, the subject of breast feeding in public seems a bit tame. If you only see boobs you can consider yourself lucky, skirts go up and down with increasing monotony leaving nothing to the imagination.


 
While I do see your point, the 2 incidents are most likely going to be viewed differently, I'd think.  If we look at Mardi Gras, we see women lifting their shirts for beads.  I wonder if they are getting arrested for public nudity?




> I do wonder why it's the chubbier girls that feel the need to expose so much flesh though.


 

LOL, funny you say that, because I often wonder the same thing.


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## Tez3 (Aug 9, 2010)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> In all fairness, the majority of the time guys spend thinking about women's breasts is NOT in the context of feeding babies, so it's likely that seeing them used for that purpose may just be plain ackward. Along that line of thought, I wonder if there'd be a significant change in views on breastfeeding between bachelors and fathers, the latter being more exposed to nature's intended use.


 
Fair enough but I wouldn't expect the same awkwardness or disgust from a woman which is what prompted my post.


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## Steve (Aug 9, 2010)

MJS said:


> IMO, I'd find that a bit indiscreet, however, I'm not going to hop off the bus prior to my destination, nor will I say something to her or to the driver. Of course, I'd also wonder what the hell a 3 or 4 yo child is doing breast feeding in the first place. LOL!


And for what it's worth, I didn't hop off the bus or say anything to her or the driver, either.  I tried to hide my surprise, but it was awkward.  At the same time, I've never forgotten it.  It remains a vivid memory for exactly the two reasons you picked up on.  It was extremely indiscreet, and it was shocking to see a child so old nursing.  Others also made good points in that it spoke to other issues with that mother/child relationship... lack of respect, lack of boundaries, etc.


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## CanuckMA (Aug 9, 2010)

I'd say that once the child is on a regular diet of solids, he's likely old enough to not have to be breastfed in public. If the kid is hungry, there are substitutes, including expressed breast milk in a cup.


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## Steve (Aug 9, 2010)

MJS said:


> LOL, funny you say that, because I often wonder the same thing.


Back in the late 80's, I drove a friend to a star trek convention.  I was shocked to discover that the larger the woman, the less fabric she would use in her costume.  I saw what looked like a very curvy young lady wearing a Klingon uniform with full makeup and a very large (250 lbs +) woman dressed in what amounted to three silk handkerchiefs.  

This inverse ratio of fabric to skin needing to be covered has got to be related to the Conservation of Ninjutsu.  Both involve inverse proportions that at first seem counter intuitive.  The Conservation of Ninjutsu rule is where the more ninja you face, the less danger you're in.  If you're facing 20 ninja, you should have little difficulty defeating them all; however, if you face only one ninja, you are in deep trouble.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 9, 2010)

MJS said:


> IMO, I'd find that a bit indiscreet, however, I'm not going to hop off the bus prior to my destination, nor will I say something to her or to the driver. Of course, I'd also wonder what the hell a 3 or 4 yo child is doing breast feeding in the first place. LOL!


 
My views on breastfeeding changed RADICALLY when I had a child.  In fact, I admit that I really didn't understand or know about it AT ALL before my wife was pregnant, but after a great deal of research and 6 months with a baby, I am about as far as can be from where I was before. 

While I still have the capacity to view breasts in the sexual manner, I have no qualms about my wife weighing her breasts to see which one to feed off of and her taking one out to feed (at home of course, when there is no discretion requirements).


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## MBuzzy (Aug 9, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> NO! Jesus Christ, you're missing the entire point. She didn't shape my opinion of breastfeeding women. She DID very clearly shape my opinion of an indiscreet breastfeeding woman. You "challenged" anyone to define the term. I gave you a perfect example. Outside of that, though, I've gone out of my way to make it very clear that I have no problem with women who nurse their babies in public. It's just not a big deal... unless the woman goes out of her way to be indiscreet.


 
  I think we're both missing each other's point.  My point is that an example is great, but doesn't provide a definition.  Unless you're saying that the instance that you cited is the ONLY way for a mother to be indiscreet.  For a definition like this, the only way to do it is to provide a measuring stick by which people can live.  My point is that to you, it is obvious what constitutes discreet....but to others it isn't so obvious.  Their definition is different.  The basis of ANY discussion is definition.  While an example does demonstrate the point, it doesn't give anyone a way to determine if their behavior fits into that bucket.  

For example - my definition of discreet in terms of breastfeeding is:

A mother who feeds her child when and where he/she needs to eat, but does it in a manner that minimizes exposure of her nipple to others.  

Other than that, it is pretty much up to her.  I couldn't care less how uncomfortable my wife makes someone when my kid is eating. 




stevebjj said:


> And honestly, I can't think of anyone so far who would disagree with you that the vast majority of breastfeeding mothers ARE very discreet. It's the ones who aren't to whom I'm referring. And there are some. That's all. And those who aren't discreet... should be. Wouldn't you agree?


 

That is true, it seems that MOST are not the problem, in fact, in the majority of the stories that make the news, the mother was being discreet and unobtrusive.  It was some employee or other person who didn't like the IDEA of breastfeeding, not the specific incident.

I agree that those who aren't discreet should be...its just that there are SO FEW.  Every mother who breastfeeds still has some sense of humility and doesn't want her nipple brandished about.  But her version of the definition of discreet may still vary wildly from yours and many other people's.




stevebjj said:


> But we can agree that the woman on that bus meets the definition of indiscreet. Can't we? It seems to me that when MJS and I and others talk about discretion and common sense, we're not talking about any kind of gray area. We're talking about the oblivious moms who really only make things harder for the "vast majority" of nursing mothers who just want to feed their babies without making a big deal about the entire thing. And of course you're right, even if the child is 4 and pulling mom's boob out himself. Legally, there's no recourse. Doesn't mean I and everyone else around isn't forming an opinion about that person. And as you said, potentially about breastfeeding in general.


 
Ok - but again, that is one incident.  I agree, that one incident was a bit off...but it is up to the mother and HER definition of discreet, based on the law.  What it boils down to is standard across really any discussion.  A very small percentage of people screw things up for the rest.  It just so happens in this case that the small percentage of people are most likely still in the right legally and it is the observers who are causing the problems.


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## crushing (Aug 9, 2010)

Discreet is when no one knows the mother is breast feeding?
Discreet is when you are able to recognize the mother is breast feeding, but don't see any skin?
Discreet is when you only catch a glimpse of the side of a breast when a mother is breast feeding?
Discreet is when the breast is only exposed for a moment until the baby's head is in the way.


No! No! No! No!  Discreet is checking out the breast feeding mother in the park and catching a glimpse without her catching you.  If she does catch you, tell her to go to the toilet and complain to your boss before the mother rats you out.


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2010)

Heres a thought, and I dont know if its already been mentioned or not in this thread....how about if the mother pumped breast milk into a bottle and used that method to feed?  Now, I'm not saying this is something she has to do, just an option.  Some may say, "Well, why should she have to?  Afterall, its her right to breast feed!"  and you're right, it is.  Again, this was simply an option.

I guess I was just thinking along the 'discreet' lines.


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## crushing (Aug 9, 2010)

MJS said:


> Heres a thought, and I dont know if its already been mentioned or not in this thread....how about if the mother pumped breast milk into a bottle and used that method to feed? Now, I'm not saying this is something she has to do, just an option. Some may say, "Well, why should she have to? Afterall, its her right to breast feed!" and you're right, it is. Again, this was simply an option.
> 
> I guess I was just thinking along the 'discreet' lines.


 
Yes, it's an option, an inconvenient and completely unnecessary option.  Besides that, sometimes when infants get used to one type of nipple, they won't latch on to another.  There is the chance that a baby that is fed from a bottle may not accept the mother's nipple.

The best scenario is to not worry too much about what the mother is doing unless she is putting someone in danger.


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2010)

crushing said:


> Yes, it's an option, an inconvenient and completely unnecessary option. Besides that, sometimes when infants get used to one type of nipple, they won't latch on to another. There is the chance that a baby that is fed from a bottle may not accept the mother's nipple.


 
So, then what you're saying is that until the child is old enough to no longer breast feed, that the mother is basically a prisoner in her home, unless she can take the child with her?  She could never leave the child with a sitter?  What does the mother do about work?  Does she stay out of work until the child is old enough to no longer have to nurse?  

Sincere questions here BTW, as I have no idea. 



> The best scenario is to not worry too much about what the mother is doing unless she is putting someone in danger.


 
Of course, and as I've said a few times already, the sight of this wont upset or bother me.  I simply said that discretion and common sense should be used.   Of course, we all know thats not always the case.


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## CoryKS (Aug 9, 2010)

Jayzus, people make things so complicated.  This is literally something so easy a cave(wo)man could do it.


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## Steve (Aug 9, 2010)

Personally, I don't know how this became such a big deal. I really don't understand why we're all saying pretty much the same thing and still arguing. 

In fact, I'm going to completely reverse my opinion. I fully endorse a woman's right to be topless in public, nursing or not. If women are routinely topless, than issues of discretion magically disappear. 

But you'll never convince me that a child older than one NEEDS to be nursed, or that a child older than two SHOULD be nursing or at least in the process of being weaned.  This also applies to being fed formula or milk from a bottle.


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Personally, I don't know how this became such a big deal. I really don't understand why we're all saying pretty much the same thing and still arguing.


 
I agree.



> In fact, I'm going to completely reverse my opinion. I fully endorse a woman's right to be topless in public, nursing or not. If women are routinely topless, than issues of discretion magically disappear.


 
All in favor.....I. 



> But you'll never convince me that a child older than one NEEDS to be nursed, or that a child older than two SHOULD be nursing or at least in the process of being weaned. This also applies to being fed formula or milk from a bottle.


 
Agreed.


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## crushing (Aug 9, 2010)

MJS said:


> So, then what you're saying is that until the child is old enough to no longer breast feed, that the mother is basically a prisoner in her home, unless she can take the child with her? She could never leave the child with a sitter? What does the mother do about work? Does she stay out of work until the child is old enough to no longer have to nurse?
> 
> Sincere questions here BTW, as I have no idea.


 
I didn't say anything of the sort.  There is no reason for her to be a prisoner in her home or a prisoner of a park toilet or some sort of breastfeeding burka to satisfy some man's definition of being discreet.

My wife wanted to breast feed our first child.  We had a bit of a communication problem with the nurses at the German Krankenhaus where he was born.  After the nurses began feeding him with the bottle without our realizing it.  After that he rejected his mother's nipple in favor of the easier feeding from the bottle.

Many mothers pump their breast milk for the baby to drink at a time when it is more convenient for the mother, such as when she is at work or away from home.  But, there is that risk of rejection, which may lessen as the infant gets older.  Also, because this can be done, doesn't mean that women should be compelled to do it when it is completely unnecessary.


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## CanuckMA (Aug 9, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> In fact, I'm going to completely reverse my opinion. I fully endorse a woman's right to be topless in public, nursing or not. If women are routinely topless, than issues of discretion magically disappear.


 

Move to Ontario?


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## Blade96 (Aug 10, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I think you may want to have a good think about that, the idea of a women being merely for a mans pleasure I find somewhat disturbing. it may mean you aren't comfortable with your own body if you reject what your body is made for. There's no reason breasts can't be for pleasure as well but the primary function is to feed babies and most women are happy with their 'dual use'. To be grossed out by breast feeding is a little odd.



well im not like 'most women'



Tez3 said:


> Fair enough but I wouldn't expect the same awkwardness or disgust from a woman which is what prompted my post.



well, I am a woman who has awkwardness and disgust for the whole thing.

but just cause i dont like anything to do with procreation, babies and breastfeeding does not mean that i dont like my body.


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## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> well im not like 'most women'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
but finding my body disgusting is upsetting for me.


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## MJS (Aug 11, 2010)

crushing said:


> I didn't say anything of the sort. There is no reason for her to be a prisoner in her home or a prisoner of a park toilet or some sort of breastfeeding burka to satisfy some man's definition of being discreet.
> 
> My wife wanted to breast feed our first child. We had a bit of a communication problem with the nurses at the German Krankenhaus where he was born. After the nurses began feeding him with the bottle without our realizing it. After that he rejected his mother's nipple in favor of the easier feeding from the bottle.
> 
> Many mothers pump their breast milk for the baby to drink at a time when it is more convenient for the mother, such as when she is at work or away from home. But, there is that risk of rejection, which may lessen as the infant gets older. Also, because this can be done, doesn't mean that women should be compelled to do it when it is completely unnecessary.


 
IMO, thats pretty much what it implied though.  Again, I have no issues with someone, discreet or indiscreet.  So basically, the mother can pump, but runs the risk of having the baby reject her nipple, if its bottle fed.  So she either a) takes that chance or b) she doesnt.  As I said, with the trend of feeding your kid via nipple until they're 2, 3 or 4, she is going to have to take that kid with her wherever she goes, or pump milk into a bottle.


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## Blade96 (Aug 11, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> *Jayzus*, people make things so complicated.  This is literally something so easy a cave(wo)man could do it.



LOL, i thought Newfoundlanders were the only ones who said jayzis! 

see we say Lard Tunderin' Jayzis :uhyeah:


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## MJS (Aug 13, 2010)

http://www.kpho.com/news/24615629/detail.html?source=pho

*



			PHOENIX --
		
Click to expand...

*


> A Valley mother said she was kicked out of McDonald's for breastfeeding her 5-month-old son.
> 
> Clarissa Bradford said she had just arrived at the McDonald's restaurant at 51st Avenue and Cactus Road on Wednesday night after church. However, once she started nursing baby Ceagan in the play area, she said the restaurant manager told them to leave.


 

Found these statements interesting:



> "I was completely covered, I was wearing a T-shirt, he was covering anything that was exposed, and my T-shirt was draped across his face," Bradford said. "I'm on my third baby. I've gotten pretty dang good at nursing discreetly."


 



> "That's going to fix it? That's going to fix the trauma that happened to me last night to me and my children? I don't think so. A slap on the hand is not good enough," Bradford said. "I want them to advocate for nursing moms. That would be enough for me."


 
Trauma?  I guess there're alot of real sensitive people in the world.


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