# Probationary Black Belt ???????????



## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 21, 2005)

Due to a "falling out" with my original instructor I left his school in 2001 to train elsewhere and didn't return until late 2004 and then only sparingly. Anyhow, when I returned I noticed a number of 'Black Belts' with no red tips. When I asked what that meant (as I knew they didn't hold rank in other systems) I was told they were Probationary Black Belts. Apparently something got instituted where the 1st Degree Brown Belts would accumulate hours after learning the prescribed 1st Degree Black Belt material. Upon completing 100 of the 200 hours required to test for Black they would be awarded a Black Belt with no red tips without any kind of test. These 'probationary ranks' then have all of the 'privleges' of a Black Belt before their test. They give students the "birth of pain" on tests; they get saluted to before class, after class, and whenever entering/exiting the studio; and they get to line up with the Black Belts among other 'privleges and duties'. I'm curious if this practice is done in any other kenpo schools and what people think of it. I think it cheapens the experience of the Black Belt test for them as nothing changes for them except 2 inches of red tape and a piece of paper. They're already doing everything that the Black Belts do without going through test to get there. Any thoughts or comments?

James Hawkins III, HI
Hawkins Kenpo Karate
Baltimore, MD


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## marlon (Aug 21, 2005)

I have never heard of such a thing


Respectfully,
Marlon


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## RichK (Aug 21, 2005)

James, back in the 90's when I lived in Alaska our school had a similar thing. My instructor tested them (full test) for black but also video taped the test. He then sent in the tape to Mr Palanzo for him to view it and give a second thumbs up. It was more for a politics war we had going on with someone else there in the state.


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## MJS (Aug 21, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Due to a "falling out" with my original instructor I left his school in 2001 to train elsewhere and didn't return until late 2004 and then only sparingly. Anyhow, when I returned I noticed a number of 'Black Belts' with no red tips. When I asked what that meant (as I knew they didn't hold rank in other systems) I was told they were Probationary Black Belts. Apparently something got instituted where the 1st Degree Brown Belts would accumulate hours after learning the prescribed 1st Degree Black Belt material. Upon completing 100 of the 200 hours required to test for Black they would be awarded a Black Belt with no red tips without any kind of test. These 'probationary ranks' then have all of the 'privleges' of a Black Belt before their test. They give students the "birth of pain" on tests; they get saluted to before class, after class, and whenever entering/exiting the studio; and they get to line up with the Black Belts among other 'privleges and duties'. I'm curious if this practice is done in any other kenpo schools and what people think of it. I think it cheapens the experience of the Black Belt test for them as nothing changes for them except 2 inches of red tape and a piece of paper. They're already doing everything that the Black Belts do without going through test to get there. Any thoughts or comments?
> 
> James Hawkins III, HI
> Hawkins Kenpo Karate
> Baltimore, MD



IMO, you either get it or you don't.  If you're not ready for it, then you should remain a Brown until the inst. decides that you are ready.  I've never seen a prob. BB in Kenpo, usually just a Jr. BB, which they usually give to kids that are not quite old enough.  In the Arnis that I study, they have a Prob. BB.  As I said in the beginning...if the student is not ready why give them the belt?  As for the hours...they should already be building those hours up prior to the actual BB test.

Just my .02.

Mike


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## dubljay (Aug 21, 2005)

IMO this is like wearing a rank you have yet to earn.  Either you are a black belt, or you aren't.  Personally I would not wear it because it's not something I had earned.  It's a bad example to set, it's almost like lying... you wear a black belt but you have yet to test for it.  I think it's a poor idea... but thats just me.

 Just my opinion.

 -Josh


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## John Bishop (Aug 21, 2005)

In Kajukenbo we have a "probationary" black belt rank.  It's called "student black belt".   This is the first black belt rank awarded after the student passes their black belt test.    It is a probationary 1 year rank.  After the year, if the student is still active and in good standing with the school, it automatically becomes a 1st degree rank, and they are given a 1st. degree certificate and red stripe.  The 1st degree certificate is back dated to the date of their original black belt promotion.  
The way I do this is to have the testing board sign both a "student black" and a "1st degree" certificate on the original testing day.  I then hold the 1st degree certificate and present it to the student after the probationary period is over.  The 1 year period is sort of a guideline.  We've had student blacks take long breaks, or become inactive for several months or even a few years.  So some people have been awarded their 1st degree 4-5 years after their original test.


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## dubljay (Aug 21, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> In Kajukenbo we have a "probationary" black belt rank. It's called "student black belt". This is the first black belt rank awarded after the student passes their black belt test.  It is a probationary 1 year rank. After the year, if the student is still active and in good standing with the school, it automatically becomes a 1st degree rank, and they are given a 1st. degree certificate and red stripe. The 1st degree certificate is back dated to the date of their original black belt promotion.
> The way I do this is to have the testing board sign both a "student black" and a "1st degree" certificate on the original testing day. I then hold the 1st degree certificate and present it to the student after the probationary period is over. The 1 year period is sort of a guideline. We've had student blacks take long breaks, or become inactive for several months or even a few years. So some people have been awarded their 1st degree 4-5 years after their original test.


 
 See that makes sense to me as a probationary black belt.  Often times people quit after their black belt test, thinking its all over (well I've seen this in some cases), or they are burned out and need a break.  But awarding a belt before it has been earned is just plain silly.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 21, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> See that makes sense to me as a probationary black belt. Often times people quit after their black belt test, thinking its all over (well I've seen this in some cases), or they are burned out and need a break. But awarding a belt before it has been earned is just plain silly.


Yeah I can get with Mr. Bishops method.  I actually like that idea because I have seen SEVERAL people take a black belt test and then quit the same day as though the journey was over instead of just beginning.  But I can't understand this concept of testing for all ranks yellow-1st brown and then all of the sudden here's a BLACK BELT no test.  It hits me so deep that I don't go visit my original instructors school so much anymore because of the tension caused by my refusal to salute/acknowledge "Brown Belts in Black Belts clothing"


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## Doc (Aug 21, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> In Kajukenbo we have a "probationary" black belt rank.  It's called "student black belt".   This is the first black belt rank awarded after the student passes their black belt test.    It is a probationary 1 year rank.  After the year, if the student is still active and in good standing with the school, it automatically becomes a 1st degree rank, and they are given a 1st. degree certificate and red stripe.  The 1st degree certificate is back dated to the date of their original black belt promotion.
> The way I do this is to have the testing board sign both a "student black" and a "1st degree" certificate on the original testing day.  I then hold the 1st degree certificate and present it to the student after the probationary period is over.  The 1 year period is sort of a guideline.  We've had student blacks take long breaks, or become inactive for several months or even a few years.  So some people have been awarded their 1st degree 4-5 years after their original test.


I utilize it as well. Because of the extraordinary curriculum, required hours for each course level, and our teaching method, we often make such awards. The key is if you came to the school and watched students perform, you would have a difficult time determining who is who. The performance level of all students reaches a significant point well before black, so that black is simply an accumulation of certain information, not neccesarily additional skills.

Also I have a particular way in teaching that spreads the knowledge laterally to all students regardless of rank. In any given session, depending upon whom is in attendance, I will give specific viable information to a student who may be at a lower course rank intentionally. The student then has the responsibility to see that everyone is "introduced" to that knowledge, which I then reinforce.

This simply means everyone is oblidged to listen to everyone, rank level not withstanding. Thus on some level, the knowledge of the system is a product of the "collective" consciousness of all students and participants. Information ultimately will not flow just down, but outward to everyone's benefit. Most importantly, you will find no ego problems within our group no matter what your level. If you do, some yellow belt just might embarass you with a little information you don't have. I have one student in particular on the floor religiously at least two nights a week, who is first generation on the tree, who made black the same day Tatum, and Trejo made brown. He's on the floor doing everything everyone else does, wears no stripes, and works with whoever is in front of him. Only his grey hair gives him away.

Additionally, we wear no stripes or any belt markings indicative of rank level. On any given night you could see someone as high as 8th, and a 18 year old 1st black training together. YOU wouldn't be able to tell the differance other than the age tip off. Everyone moves well, with solid basics. All black belt ranks are emeritus/honorary in nature. If someone claims to be a certified teacher, ask to see their signed, sealed, and notarized teaching credential. This is the desired document, over and above rank course completion diplomas. When you pass the black course, you receive your diploma. But that's all it means. You passed. Nothing more or less. It is not a statement of anything other than meeting the requirements for the course. Should you quit the same day, (nobody ever has) so be it. You earned it.

We by design, focus on knowledge and skills, and not so much as black belt as a rank. It marks a certain level of knowledge and a source of pride to students for passing a course, but they put things in perspective and recognize its just a another belt and there is much more to learn. To that end, I have large numbers of black belts regularly in every class. Some as long as thirty plus years under my tutleledge, and they never seem to develop a "know-it-all" attitude. Some green belt just might make them look bad.

"We are the Borg. Resistance Is Futile - you will be assimilated" is a running joke in the "collective" known as SunLevel Four Kenpo. 

Keep them honest "over there" Hawkman and look out for the politics.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 21, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Keep them honest "over there" Hawkman and look out for the politics.


Will do sir.


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## kenpochad (Aug 23, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> IMO this is like wearing a rank you have yet to earn. Either you are a black belt, or you aren't. Personally I would not wear it because it's not something I had earned. It's a bad example to set, it's almost like lying... you wear a black belt but you have yet to test for it. I think it's a poor idea... but thats just me.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> -Josh


I agree, when you pass the test for BB then you should be a BB I mean 
why would you test for something if you have to wait a year for before you get it . just test when you ready. Either you are or you arent


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## Thesemindz (Aug 23, 2005)

At our school students are awarded a plain black belt with no stripes after the completion of their black belt test and thesis. This is a probationary black belt. Six months later, if they have remained a student in good standing and kept up regular attendance they are awarded their stripe. At this time they are a full first degree black belt. This is done for several reasons.

Partly this is a throw back to a time when instructors were tapping students for unpaid mandatory teaching assistance. This is no longer a practice at our school. We do have student assistants, but it is not a requirement for rank, and our student assistants are hand picked, trained and retrained consistently, and required to uphold the standards and practices of our organization. 

Now this practice exists for two reasons primarily. One is to stem the tide of quitters in the first degree. This is not a huge problem at our school, but students tend to burn out at one of several stages, and black belt is one. In my experience, this is due either to the student feeling they have arrived and no longer need to train, a gross misjudgement for any student at any skill level, or they moved into the next higher class, and since they are no longer the cock of the walk they get frustrated and give up. Some people have difficulty excepting the move from front of the line to back of the line, and I make it a practice to instruct my students from their first class in the understanding that growth in martial arts is a process. They will move from the back of the room as the new student, to the front of the room as the most advanced student, and then be rewarded upon achieving their next rank with becoming the new student again. This is a process to be embraced, not ashamed of. The other is to give the student time to ingest their growth.

I have no problem with a probationary black belt. I was one bad dude when I got my black belt, but my understanding, perspective, and skill level sky rocketed in the intervening six months, and it took me that long to accept the change in my life. I needed time to absorb the transition to black belt, and when my probationary period had ended and I had recieved my stripes, I was truly a black belt.

The journey to black belt takes time, and the transition doesn't occur over night, just because the belt ceremony last only a few minutes, doesn't mean that you go from brown to black so quickly.


-Rob


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## kenpochad (Aug 23, 2005)

Thesemindz


Never looked at it like that good point. There is alot that i dont understand not been able to experience them. that why I like this sit.
Im not yet a BB but Im on my why I will test for my brown september
:asian:


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 23, 2005)

I keep noticing that other people have experienced the "probationary" black belt as well. I have noticed one key difference however. Everyone else is saying "we have it, *after a test"*. I'm getting the general idea that a probationary rank without a test is largely unheard of and just may be worthy of my special flag that only a few have truly earned. The few, the proud, the...

:bs:


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## Doc (Aug 23, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> I keep noticing that other people have experienced the "probationary" black belt as well. I have noticed one key difference however. Everyone else is saying "we have it, *after a test"*. I'm getting the general idea that a probationary rank without a test is largely unheard of and just may be worthy of my special flag that only a few have truly earned. The few, the proud, the...
> 
> :bs:


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## kenpochad (Aug 23, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> :bs:


I like that Flag


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## Thesemindz (Aug 23, 2005)

Generally speaking, I would probably agree with your assesment of awarding a probationary belt before a test. The one point I might make though, is that it is not uncommon to award "recommended" ranks. For instance, many schools have a recommended brown belt, or a recommended black belt. Sometimes this is a green or brown belt with a black stripe running long down the center. This practice is common in many TKD schools where they award red/black belts for "recommended" black belts. This only means the student is getting ready to test, but has not yet and is still in the preparation phase. Perhaps asking this question in the TKD forum would yield more results? Perhaps if the instructor in question had framed the ranking differently it would have caused less friction. I don't know any of the involved parties, but maybe this is more a case of good intentions conflicting with bad communication. I try not to attribute to malevolance what can be explained away by ignorance.


-Rob


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 23, 2005)

Ralph Castro has a probationary Black Belt.

In Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, there is a "Fighter" Black Belt rank and an "Instructor" Black Belt.  Most of us are familiar with the Instructor rank -- a Black Belt with a Red Bar on one side.  As additional Black Belt degrees are earned, BJJ Black Belts add white stripes to their Red Bar.  The Fighter rank is rarely used.  Fighter rank is designated by a White Bar instead of the Red Bar.  The Fighter Rank is a good way to keep new Black Belts from jumping ship and opening their own school.  New Black Belts leaving to open their own school is still a problem in BJJ...in Kenpo it seems this doesn't usually happen until after 3rd Black...


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## kenposikh (Aug 24, 2005)

BAsically here in the UK within our orgaisation the BKKU we do have a probationary black belt (Shodan Ho) and I feel it serves two great purposes.

1. All those people who actually have an aoim of receiving a black belt and go no further will get a black belt say goodbye to them and they are not entered onto the family tree, so their personal goals are met however they havbe not realised that there is much more to be a dan grade than just the black belt.

2. We have a minimum two year gap between Black Belt (Shodan Ho) and Dan grade which is time used to assist in teaching spreading their knowledge and also to consolidate all that they know so that when they do eventually take there Dan grade they  prepared for the gruelling task ahead.

OUr dan grades are tested individually through a 5 to 7 hour grading where they are tested on forms sets techniques (all of them from yellow up including extensions) as well as breaking down forms and providing interpretations etc.

So personally I am all for the probationary black belt.


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## Satori (Aug 24, 2005)

I've never seen a school that had a "Probationary" Black Belt.  I've seen Junior Black Belts, and "Honorary Black Belts" for students with a high ranking in another style that switched (in this scenario, the students still had to learn ALL the required techniques and test...they were just allowed to keep wearing their rank).

One reason I can understand a "Pre Black Belt" w/o a test is, essentially, as a review of the students character.

I don't have much experience with American Kenpo, but it sounds like black belts are afforded a deal of "special treatment" by non-black belts.  In traditional Karate, black belt STUDENTS are treated no different than other students...if anything, the instructor is more harsh, unrelenting, and demanding (and at times belittling if the black belt demonstrates the wrong attitude).  This tends to "keep them in check" and to restrain attitudes and ego-tism.

Perhaps by giving the "Soon to be Black Belt" the rank before they actually test for it, the instructor is essentially giving the student enough rope to hang themselves with.  They are afforded the rights of the rank, saluted, etc... all with the intention of showing the instructor how the student will handle wearing a black belt.  

This could be another test...a test of moral character and humility.  Perhaps if the student behaves poorly, then after a grueling test the student is NOT awarded the rank and is told to figure out why they didn't pass (assuming their techniques were perfect, this would be a chance for some intense introspection).

Just an observation, as I personally don't think the color worn is important, as it only serves as a visual indication of a skill level that should be easily experienced and understood.

May you achieve
Satori


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 24, 2005)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Ralph Castro has a probationary Black Belt.
> 
> Should have provided this information in my previous post:
> 
> ...


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## Motobu-Ha (Aug 25, 2005)

I am a practitioner of Japanese/Okinawan Karate.

We use the probationary BB (Shodan-Ho), this is for those people who are almost ready for there 1st Degree test. The test for their Shodan-Ho, but the belt the are awarded is a BB with a white stripe down the middle of it. This way people see the different belt and don't assume they are a full ranked BB.

This is also the rank that youths (under 16) are awarded, since we do not promote people under 16 to 1st degree. This is a maturity issue.
But depending on the age of the student when they are up for Shodan-Ho the belts are different. They are:
8-11 y/o - Brown Belt w/ Black stripe down middle of belt
11-13 y/o - 1/2 Brown, 1/2 Black Belt (similar to a TKD sr. red belt)
13-16 y/o - Black belt w/ White stripe down the middle of the belt.

Stripes are also added to the ends to denote time at rank, this also lets the have a progression of rank (so to speak).

Some may not agree with this method, but its what we use.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 25, 2005)

Well I guess it could be worse. Instead of charging people $150 on Ebay for taped lessons, certificates and an unearned but given Black Belt people could be charging monthly dues for lessons, certificates and then an unearned but given Black belt. Wait a minute that's what's going on here! But the EBAY option is cheaper! But people keep harping on that. So it's better if you spend MORE money and TAKE LONGER to get the unearned but given Black Belt. Now I get it. It's morally better because there's MORE MONEY exchanged and the instructor actually trained the student as somepoint before _just handing out a black belt_. I finally figured it all out now. Now I'm _*SURE*_ that this gets my special flag. Which flag you ask.






This one.


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## CrankyDragon (Aug 26, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> I think it cheapens the experience of the Black Belt test


Ditto.


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## Sigung86 (Aug 27, 2005)

Being a bit of a non-traditionalist ... ahem ... I don't see where the use of a temporary Black Belt, or Black Belt select, or whatever is of any real use.

If it takes x amount of techniques, x amount of forms, x amount of teaching time or whatever the requirements are, then go ahead and promote...

It's much like in a college or high school setting... You complete a predetermined amount of material to receive the diploma or degree.  You get it, and get on with life. High School diplomas are usually not awarded in cases of drop out ... College degrees, the same, or else non-payment, but once you have completed x amount of requirements... ShaZaam!  You are one. 

In most TKD schools I've run across, the test for the "inbetween" or striped belt appears to be a way to catch just a tad bit more of lucre from the student.

Did you know there are schools that charge about 1000 bucks for the Black Belt test?  :idunno: 

If a student (female or male) looks, acts, moves, and generally comports as a Black Belt, then s/he is one, especially with the great gaping hollow in the lower areas left by the swiftly burgeoning gob of 10th degrees.  :uhyeah: 
We need to fill in underneath with indians for all the new chiefs to stand on...
 :readrules 

I like Doc's set up.. It's a little more involved, but it definitely achieves some important goals.  In the case of teachers, it is a Black Belt with one certificate for form and the other for function (teaching)... That's very cool, bu there is little to no emphasis there on belt ranks.  And, often times, the belts have become so common as to be almsot not worth running for... But then I"ve had my Black for about 30 years, so it may have lost some of its mystique.   :boing2:


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## Castle (Aug 28, 2005)

Sorry to interupt but what is "the birth of pain"?


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## Sapper6 (Aug 28, 2005)

NGAzone said:
			
		

> Ditto.



ditto again.


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## Sapper6 (Aug 28, 2005)

Castle said:
			
		

> Sorry to interupt but what is "the birth of pain"?




see here:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26357&highlight=birth+pain


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## TwistofFat (Sep 19, 2005)

One of the things I always liked about "our" version of Kenpo was the higher than average standard.  I wore my Brown Belt for 5 years and it was tattered and old (like me).  I knew the requirements for Black involved more than just knowing the techniques/forms required.  I was taught it meant coming to class, teaching others (and yourself) but then proving yourself under pressure, often violent pressure.  

I like Mister Bishop's and Doc's approach very much, but that takes a school and an instructor that is dedicated and stays in "business" long enough for the validation to occur (like Doc and Bishop, Cappi, Dye, and many others).  


"Seven years of college down the drain..."- Glenn.


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## BallistikMike (Sep 19, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> ..."We are the Borg. Resistance Is Futile - you will be assimilated" is a running joke in the "collective" known as *SunLevel Four Kenpo*.
> 
> Keep them honest "over there" Hawkman and look out for the politics.


Now I am no where insuating a spelling problem, but I just wanted to know...

Does Sunlevel Four Kenpo entitle Coronas, a beech, bikini dressed women and possibly, just maybe freshly made avacado dip?

Cause Im all about making the trip out to California for that class!!!!


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## Doc (Sep 19, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Now I am no where insuating a spelling problem, but I just wanted to know...
> 
> Does Sunlevel Four Kenpo entitle Coronas, a beech, bikini dressed women and possibly, just maybe freshly made avacado dip?
> 
> Cause Im all about making the trip out to California for that class!!!!


Yes it is SubLevel Four, and yes we do have that class, and its run by my student from the DEA.


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## BlackIce (Oct 21, 2005)

Kenpo Greetings,
We have a " Student Black Belt " who wears a 1/2 Brown , 1/2 Black Belt. This is a Rank for a Jr. Student (12-16 years old) that has not met our 3600 hrs of Teaching Time, and have not met the age requirement(must be at least 16 years old). I believe that if you can teach it properly to someone who has no idea what they are doing then you understand it. This student may compete as a JR. Black Belt but does not receive all the customs and courteseys of a Jr. Black Belt. a " Junios Black Belt " wears a Black Belt with a White Stripe through the middle. This is for a youth Student (12-16 years old) they have met all criteria for 1st Black Belt ( Thesis, 3600 Teaching hours, Curriculum, and Testing). They wear this rank untill 16 years of age at that time if they are in good standing and active then they awarded  1st Degree Black Belt upno completion of Our Written and Physical Exams.


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## arnisador (Oct 21, 2005)

By "3600 hrs of Teaching Time" do you mean time that they are being taught, or time that they themselves are teaching? Is this different from training time?


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## BlackIce (Nov 9, 2005)

They the Student Black Belts and 1st Browns (this student may not be ready to compete at a Black Belt Level) must have 3600 hours of in studio instruction time teaching other students. They may be Tiny tigers (3-7 year olds) Beginner classes(White - Blue Belt), or Advanced classes(Green-Brown Belt). My standards are very high and I only have 3 students who are qualified for Student Black Belt at this time. Does this help to explain how we use this rank?


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## arnisador (Nov 10, 2005)

I suppose...a 12 year old who amassed 3600 hours of teaching others would likely be in violation of child labor laws, no? That's about 2 hours per day for 5 years?


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## Sigung86 (Nov 10, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I suppose...a 12 year old who amassed 3600 hours of teaching others would likely be in violation of child labor laws, no? That's about 2 hours per day for 5 years?


 
Actually, that whole gig is in violation of federal labor laws, I do believe.
The intent is honorable, and traditional... The action is unlawful, as I recall, to have people teaching at a school for free like that.  That figures out to about 1.5 full man years of indenture, or essentially, slave labor.  And the Feds take a real dim view of that sort of actiivty.


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## Doc (Nov 10, 2005)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> Actually, that whole gig is in violation of federal labor laws, I do believe.
> The intent is honorable, and traditional... The action is unlawful, as I recall, to have people teaching at a school for free like that.  That figures out to about 1.5 full man years of indenture, or essentially, slave labor.  And the Feds take a real dim view of that sort of actiivty.


I wonder if the Arthur Murray Dance Studios know that.


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## Sigung86 (Nov 10, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> I wonder if the Arthur Murray Dance Studios know that.


 
Dunno Doc ... But Uncle Al Tracy sure does.   :whip: :uhyeah:


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## BlackIce (Nov 10, 2005)

Ok Ok I Get it,
So as to not get sent to "Club FED" for Child Slavery how would you recomend I help them get some "surevised instructional time" in for promotion purposes and not be in violation of anf federal or child labor laws? How do i help a 15/5 year old Student Black Belt get his time in? Or do I just reduce or remove the teaching criteria all together. Please give me some feerback.

Kenpo Salute​


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## arnisador (Nov 10, 2005)

Well, I would think it would suffice to re-describe it so it sounds like an activity, not a job. They're being trained to be teachers, right--they aren't already teachers?


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## BlackIce (Nov 10, 2005)

That is correct they are training to be teachers. It is basically set up as a trainning program. They don't open the stdio and start class. It is a class within the class I give them groups and assign certain material for them to cover. They are evaluated on their performance and how well they can convey the concepts being taught to other students


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## Sigung86 (Nov 10, 2005)

Again... No offense was intended nor is implied.  I'm not a lawyer, but it seems that rather than sit here and let a bunch of us mentally slobber over everything, rationalize and try to make what you are doing fit a niche, treat your business like a business.

Get hold of the labor people, or a labor type lawyer and find out what you can and can't do.

The whole thing simply revolves around covering your butt, and like I said, treating your business as a business.  In America ain't like it used to was in China, Japan, etc.  There are strict laws, and like in everything else, there are so many of them that we have to have lawyers to keep us from sinking in the quagmire.

I personally don't charge for lessons and teach for free several nights a week at a church and at my home, and with that in mind, my circumstance is different from yours.  My Black Belt levels does not require training in instructing to be eligible to be promoted.  The instructor training is hands on, after Black Belt and not a requirement.  Many folks who graduate to the Dan grades don't want to teach.  They move on, or simply stay as eternal students.  Have several who have been with me for over ten years.

If they don't want to teach, I don't make them do it.

You might also consider making the training classes for instructors an advanced thing and charge for it...

I would also consider picking Doc's brain if he has time.  I may be way off base here, after all... All I know is what I learned when I used to be a real Black Belt under Team Tracy.  And say what you want about the Tracy Organization, good and or bad, Al is first and foremost a business man and is going to do very little or allow very little that will be a detriment to his perceived operations.

With that in mind, if you ever have an opportunity to obtain any of his business tapes you will get an eyeful and lots to think about.  For instance ... Knowing Kenpo or whatever Martial Art you are into, is only ranked fourth on the list of things you need to know and or do to operate a successful business.....

Ask Arthur Murray.  :uhyeah: :uhyeah: :uhyeah:


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## RichK (Nov 10, 2005)

Child labor law states 14. Anyone below the age of 14 is not allowed to work. If someone is teaching in your school the need to be paid, it is a whole differnet type of laws for bartering. If the students are "attending" class and them you break them down to groups as group leaders then I think you are okay, but you should look up the laws in your area. You also need to be aware of the clock as on certain nights (school nights) they are not allowed to go past a certain hour.


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## Sigung86 (Nov 10, 2005)

RichK said:
			
		

> Child labor law states 14. Anyone below the age of 14 is not allowed to work. If someone is teaching in your school the need to be paid, it is a whole differnet type of laws for bartering. If the students are "attending" class and them you break them down to groups as group leaders then [/b]I think you are okay, but you should look up the laws in your area....[/b]


 
My point exactly ... Instead of trying to feel good about what we all may think, it is probably better to treat your school as a business, and find out what your legal requirements are.

But then... It's not my school.:idunno:


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## arnisador (Nov 10, 2005)

Definitely, talk to a lawyer! But also...isn't 3600 hours of teaching a _lot_ of time for a 12 year old? That's 7 days a week, 365 days a year, teaching 2 hours a day...for 5 years!!! Plus the child's own training...is that  realistic? Is it reasonable?


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## Seabrook (Nov 11, 2005)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> I personally don't charge for lessons and teach for free several nights a week at a church and at my home
> :uhyeah: :uhyeah: :uhyeah:


 
Wow. That is so awesome. Very few people would ever think about doing what you are. You really deserve to be paid well, but that is your perogative. 

My hat goes off to you sir.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## BlackIce (Nov 11, 2005)

Let Me Explain,
The Students in question are 14.5 and 15.5. We train 3 days a week for 1.5hrs.and they do group instruction for 30 mins twice a week. So thats about 4 hrs a month. I believe in learning by teaching. my students teach me something new every class.


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## arnisador (Nov 11, 2005)

Math. was never my best subject in school, but at 4 hours per month, amassing 3600 hours total will take about 900 months, or 75 years.

So, you have 15 year olds with 75 years of teaching experience?


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## BlackIce (Nov 17, 2005)

Heads Up!,
The 3600 hrs. is a test all unto itself. It is designed to see if the student will be dedicated enough to wholeheartedly attempt to "Earn" those hours. I never have expected them to amass that many "supervised teaching hours". It is an exercise in Commitment and Dedication. Traits that are lacking in this generation of young people.I will never promote someone under 16 years of age to Black Belt. That's my personal choice. I see 7 year olds sporting 3rd Degrees and above at tournament and it turns my stomach. McDojo's crank them out like hot cakes and make $$$$$$. but where are the real Character Building, Life Skills, and Practical Self-Defense Leassons? They are dissappering and being replaced by PAPER TIGERS and INTERNET DRAGONS...... The Lessons I learned in Keno as well as The ARMY have made me a STRONGER MAN and I will do my best to instill those qualities in my students.... The Future of our Nation!


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## Sigung86 (Nov 17, 2005)

BlackIce said:
			
		

> Heads Up!,
> The 3600 hrs. is a test all unto itself. It is designed to see if the student will be dedicated enough to wholeheartedly attempt to "Earn" those hours. I never have expected them to amass that many "supervised teaching hours". It is an exercise in Commitment and Dedication. Traits that are lacking in this generation of young people.I will never promote someone under 16 years of age to Black Belt. That's my personal choice. I see 7 year olds sporting 3rd Degrees and above at tournament and it turns my stomach. McDojo's crank them out like hot cakes and make $$$$$$. but where are the real Character Building, Life Skills, and Practical Self-Defense Leassons? They are dissappering and being replaced by PAPER TIGERS and INTERNET DRAGONS...... The Lessons I learned in Keno as well as The ARMY have made me a STRONGER MAN and I will do my best to instill those qualities in my students.... The Future of our Nation!


 
No problemo from me Bubba...

But ...  If I'as you, I'd look at this link... And go to the link that is on the page.

http://www.tracyskarate.com/Business/child_labor.htm

Say what you want about Tracy and his Karat&#233;, he is, after all, one Hell of a business head.

Your response appears to have taken a little too long to come up with and appears to be, somewhat, contrived.

Again... No offense to you or what you do.  It's not my school.  I just hate to see someone go down over something that is law and could have been prevented.

If you've checked with a lawyer and this all is your answer and you're sticking to it... Then that's ok I guess.  But it seems full of wholes to me.

Have a great day, and hopefully you will not take personal offense toward me for posting this.

Dan


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## arnisador (Nov 17, 2005)

BlackIce said:
			
		

> The 3600 hrs. is a test all unto itself. It is designed to see if the student will be dedicated enough to wholeheartedly attempt to "Earn" those hours. I never have expected them to amass that many "supervised teaching hours". It is an exercise in Commitment and Dedication.


 
I still don't get it. If a 16 year old has been training for 12 years and teaching for 10 of those years, he'd have to teach 360 hours/year on average to make this amount. That's basically an hour a day, 365 days a year. But presumably you have many students...how can they all amass this much teaching time? How many hours a day do your students train? If there are 5 such students, they each need to teach for an hour every day...even if these are 45 minute class periods called "hours" for convenience, that's still a heck of a lot of time.

How are people making this work? _Is_ anyone gettin in that much time?


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## MJS (Nov 17, 2005)

BlackIce said:
			
		

> Heads Up!,
> The 3600 hrs. is a test all unto itself. It is designed to see if the student will be dedicated enough to wholeheartedly attempt to "Earn" those hours. I never have expected them to amass that many "supervised teaching hours". It is an exercise in Commitment and Dedication. Traits that are lacking in this generation of young people.I will never promote someone under 16 years of age to Black Belt. That's my personal choice. I see 7 year olds sporting 3rd Degrees and above at tournament and it turns my stomach. McDojo's crank them out like hot cakes and make $$$$$$. but where are the real Character Building, Life Skills, and Practical Self-Defense Leassons? They are dissappering and being replaced by PAPER TIGERS and INTERNET DRAGONS...... The Lessons I learned in Keno as well as The ARMY have made me a STRONGER MAN and I will do my best to instill those qualities in my students.... The Future of our Nation!


 
There seems to be a bit of confusion on how someone can acheive this many hours.  Perhaps you can give us a few more details as to how your school does this task?

Mike


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## BlackIce (Nov 19, 2005)

"3600 hrs. The simplified version."
Timmy is 13 years old. he has trained with me for 4 years and has just been promoted to Green Belt. I say ' now that you are a Green Belt you are required the earn 3600 hrs. of Supervised Teaching Experience or turn 16 before you reach 1st Brown before I consider you for Black Belt Testing." So he enthusiasticly pick up 30 minutes here or there and write down his time in his student log......... Two years has past ..... Timmy is now 15 and has excelled above and beyond by my standards ( which are extremely high ). He has amassed a whopping 96 hrs in 2 years ( 30 mins. twice a week for 2 years ). He trains 3 day a week for 1.5 hrs. in the studio. He travels on our tournament team , and make all our team workouts ( 1 a month for 5 hrs. ). He dominates the advanced divisions. Now comes the dicision... He has 11 months before he turns 16.... He has become a strong leader and a skilled Kenpo practitioner. I say you are now a " Student Black Belt " ( he wears a 1/2 Brown 1/2 Black Belt ). He is allowed to compete as a Jr. Black Belt and earn prize $ at tournaments. He begins research for his thesis, and begins to learn the whole Kenpo Carriculum ( not the abridged version taught to children at our studio ). At 16 Timmy takes his Jr. Black Belt Exam God willing he passes and is awarded Jr. Black Belt Status. Do you understand how I use the 3600 hrs. A student is never supposed to amass that much time. It is a mental test I use to see if they are committed to the task at hand. I put an impossible goal in front of them to see if they will attempt to succeed. I use it to help develop mental toughness ( an old ARMY trick ... create a stressful environment to test the soldiers training and reactions to stress ). It may not be fair or even rational by martial arts standards, but I want my students prepaired the that Big Bad Nasty World waiting for them. If you don't factor the student actually having to earn that many hours it works out fine. Remember it is " Supervised Instruction ". A class within the main class nothing more... It is not free / slave labor.... It could be used as a Public Speaking exercise ( to get over shyness )..... Or help a Student Build Self-Esteem and Confidence. Anyway that's how I do it. I am by no means offended by any comments made by my Kenpo Brothers & Sisters. This is just an exchange of ideas and opinions.
Kenpo Salute
Tyrone Tablada​


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## arnisador (Nov 19, 2005)

Yes, now I understand.


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## John Bishop (Nov 19, 2005)

So what do you tell the kids who do the math and say: "Sensei, it will take me 75 years to collect 3600 hours of teaching time."


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## gmkuoha (Nov 19, 2005)

Hi there everyone, been gone a long time...been awfully busy traveling and fixing up our home. In the Chinese Kara-Ho Kempo Karate System, we have probations for every dan rank, from 1st on through. Evere promotion is 1-year  and then if they pass the physical test they will recieve their belts, and they also recieves a small diploma...but only till the board of directors view this student/instructor to see if they had progressed in that 1 year, does that instructor recieves his/hers large instructor's certificate that is signed a notarized by myself as mine was by Professor William Chow. Many times a person gets his/hers black belt and they can't handle it all and forgets what is humilty. This we have seen so many times, not only in our system..but many others. This way it keeps that person on "check" so to speak and if they know they are on probation...it seems as if they work even harder then they did before. Everey "dan" rank is the same 1-year even my highest ranking instructor at 6th dan goes through the same probationary period.
Grandmaster Kuoha


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## BlackIce (Nov 20, 2005)

Kenpo Greetings,
Mr. Bishop the average kid in my area is Not going to do the math. I live in in area in rural georgia where 85% of the county is functionally Illereterate. But you do have exceptions to that. To them I tell it is not the destination that is important ( the 3600 hrs. ), but the journey. Sure kids are smarter and want to know why this is this and that is that but sometime I say " Because I Say So ! " ..... I haven't had any complaints yet but if I do them I will reexamine my 3600 hrs. provision. Remember I never expect them to get that many hours so I don't dwell on the numbers I look for the Effort in that person. It's all a head game to develop mental toughness.

Kenpo Salute​


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Nov 20, 2005)

BlackIce said:
			
		

> Kenpo Greetings,
> Mr. Bishop the average kid in my area is Not going to do the math. I live in in area in rural georgia where 85% of the county is functionally Illereterate.
> 
> Kenpo Salute​


 
I'd move away from that scene as fast as my car could drive.   Illiterate?

DarK LorD


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## BlackIce (Nov 25, 2005)

Kenpo Greetings,
My 3600 hrs. " requirement " is Just like The ARMY's Victory Tower or The Marine Corps' Crucuble. It is exercise designed to test my Jr. Student's commitment level. It breaks down to ..... How Bad do you want It, and How Hard are you Willing to Work?


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## dianhsuhe (Nov 25, 2005)

Wow- this has turned into quite a thread... I understand that you are trying to motivate them and see how dedicated they are but I would adjust the math just so it makes sense... Set it high maybe but not obviously unachievable.



Just my .02

Jamey


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## BlackIce (Dec 3, 2005)

That is a good idea I may make it 300 hrs. or something like that. I use my studio and tournament team as outreach programs for the young people in my community. We even offer a " scholarship program " for our financially dis-advantaged students also. I do my part to give back. Thank Everyone for your honest and critical imput. This a new criteria being added to our cirriculum. I will regroup and make all the suggested corrections.

Kenpo Salute
Tyrone Tablada​


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## arnisador (Dec 3, 2005)

I do wonder if an achievable goal is better! Either way, good luck with your program.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Dec 4, 2005)

3600hrs?  Not sure about your "rural functionally illiterate area'" as you called it.  But here the kids will be quick to ask a kid who has achieved that belt already 'How many hours did you do?' And when that kid answers "96hrs" the first kid would ask the teacher "Why do I have to do 3600hrs when student X over there only did 96?" You need to give the kids a little more credit.  The functionally illiterate comment seems kind of off, or just downright saying your students are too dumb to do the math.  But I may have taken that part the wrong way, being functionally literate and all.  At any rate we had a school over here get shut down for the whole "student hours" requirement fiasco.  You definitely want to look up information on that topic to avoid a senseless lawsuit or shutdown.  The kids may not be smart enough to do math, but eventually one of the parents will be smart enough to make the phone call.


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## BlackIce (Dec 5, 2005)

85% of the adult popuplation in my community functions on a 3rd to 6th grade Education Level. Most of the county is comprised of Farms. Nothing negative or disrespectful was ment just a figure putout by The Goergia Department of Education. I want my studio to inspire ny students to braoden their horizons.... Like The Green Belt Pledge states.


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