# Difference between Jodan Uke, and Jodan Age Uke?



## Mujician (Jan 24, 2017)

Pretty straight forward question - can anyone tell me the difference between these two blocks, or are they pretty much interchangeable names for the same block?


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 24, 2017)

Musician said:


> Pretty straight forward question - can anyone tell me the difference between these two blocks, or are they pretty much interchangeable names for the same block?



Might not be as straightforward as you think.  Every style of Japanese / Okinawan karate uses similar words but sometimes use them in a different manner.

Personally, I do not know the term 'jodan age uke'.  We use the term 'jodan uke' but even then, the way we do an upper body block is very different than the way others who use the same term do it.  We also do a slightly different upper body block that we call jodan tegata uke.

For me, 'jodan' means 'upper body / head' and 'uke' means 'to receive'.  'Tegata' means open hand (for us).

From my interaction with other schools of karate, they mean different things than we do when they call an exercise 'jodan uke' and they apply it with a different emphasis.

Sorry to make a seemingly simple topic difficult!


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## Mujician (Jan 24, 2017)

Age (pron: AG-ay) means rising.


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## Sojobo (Jan 24, 2017)

Jodan uke - is more or less a generic  term for any block / parry that is done at head height.

Jodan age uke - means upper rising block so refers to a head block the travels upwards to parry (compared to a block that parries an attack sideways).

Styles and groups tend to use variants in terminology.

What most Wado groups refer to as a Jodan uke - Shotokan folk would describe as Jodan age uke - although there are subtle differences between the two.


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## Paul_D (Jan 24, 2017)

Mujician said:


> or are they pretty much interchangeable names for the same block?


They are the interchangeable names for the same technique, but it's not a block.


















Sojobo said:


> Jodan age uke - means upper rising block


Uke doesn't mean block.


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## Hyoho (Jan 24, 2017)

The verb Ukeru is usually used as: to receive or catch. The verb ageru (e as in pet) is to lift or raise. Jodan as mentioned is higher or above. A block is not a parry. Different words again such as uke barai.


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## Sojobo (Jan 25, 2017)

Ah,... That's made things a lot clearer!


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## Mujician (Jan 25, 2017)

So, could someone tell me the difference between a block and a parry?


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## Sojobo (Jan 25, 2017)

I would say that a block is something that literally stops a technique in its tracks – effectively acting a crash barrier.

A parry on the other hand is more of a redirection of force.

I try not to get too hung up on the use of words like ‘block’ and ‘parry’ and how they translate between Japanese and English - I see them as nothing more than colloquialisms.

In the end, a technique is what it is.


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## Hyoho (Jan 25, 2017)

Sojobo said:


> I would say that a block is something that literally stops a technique in its tracks – effectively acting a crash barrier.
> 
> A parry on the other hand is more of a redirection of force.
> 
> ...


The two words become very important if you use a weapon especially a sword. Again in Japanese they are different The verb harau-to ward off or drive away is used. We have terminology such as ukebarai (catch and drive off). The 'h' changes to a 'b' as its within a word. For example hashi would become Ishibashi as in Stonebridge.

Transposed to become Bridgestone Tyres  by the owner Ishibashi Sojiro.

I often have the similar conversatation of the Japanese word Kiru (to cut). There is little we cut with a sword that is not extremly defined such as specific arteries. So in english the correct usage is better if we say 'slice'.


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## Sojobo (Jan 25, 2017)

> I often have the similar conversatation of the Japanese word Kiru (to cut). There is little we cut with a sword that is not extremly defined such as specific arteries. So in english the correct usage is better if we say 'slice'.



Indeed, I also practice sword and my instructors will call it a 'cut' when really that's the wrong way to describe it.

Here in the UK at least, the use of the phrase 'block' in karate is almost certainly a legacy of the early Japanese instructors using the word (probably because if it's visual simplicity).

Train with the likes of Ohgami sensei today and he still uses the term 'block' as a label for the movement.


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## Sojobo (Feb 8, 2017)

On the subject of blocks in karate (or any other martial art for that matter)...

Not sure whether I have posted this here before (apologies if I have), but the following is an excerpt from a Chinese manuscript called 'Rikuto' (c. 11th century BC)

来たれば即ち迎え、去れば即ち送り、
対すれば即ち和す。
五五の十
二八の十
一九の十
是を以て和すべし。
虚実を察し、陰伏を知り、
大は方処を絶ち、細は微塵に入る。
殺活機にあり、変化時に応ず。
事に臨んで心を動ずること莫(なかれ)や。

If it comes, then meet it, if it leaves, then send it away.
If it resists, than harmonize it.
5 and 5 are 10.
2 and 8 are 10.
1 and 9 are 10.
You should harmonize like this.
Intuit true and false, know what is hidden,
The large suppresses all, the small enters the microscopic.
There are chances for life and death, without reacting to changes.
Approach things without moving your heart (without being disturbed)


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## Hyoho (Feb 9, 2017)

But kanji has onyomi and kunyomi. There are both Confucianism and Buddhist derivation to meanings.


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## punisher73 (Feb 10, 2017)

In karate, I have not come across a separate term for "parry" in many styles.  Although, I believe that "barai" in some styles is used for that.  Even though most still translate "godan barai" as "lower block".

Based on the concept of "uke" meaning "to receive" and not "to block".  A block and parry are both in the concept of receiving.  In fact, the chambering of blocks and crossing of the hands as you execute the block with one hand as you re-chamber the other hand as taught in many styles kihon is specifically done that way to teach the parrying aspects of the "blocking" motion.  Mawashi Uke is another movement found in many, if not most, karate styles and teaches all of the various parries within it's motions to use parts of the circle as needed to redirect the incoming punch before counterattacking.

As to other uses of the motion, "yes" the jodan uke can be used to "block" and incoming punch or overhand type attack.  It can also be used for many other applications as well.  Always remember that originally the motions of a kata did not have a name or label to it.  So, that jodan uke, could be a rising forearm strike into the throat or it could be used to attack into an overhand right punch.  When books started to be published showing karate techniques, they had to put a label on the pictures as to what the motion was.  At this point, because of the label those techniques became "frozen" into what their application was supposed to be.


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## Paul_D (Feb 10, 2017)

punisher73 said:


> A block and parry are both in the concept of receiving.


Block s the concept of stopping something, which is pretty much the opposite of receiving.


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## Hyoho (Feb 11, 2017)

The Japanese word ukeru can also mean to receive something (a thing) but I would not think that applied in this context. It can also mean to catch a ball or stop a blow. The application of what I do in parrying is more or less to ward off an attack as in uke barai. This come from the the verb harau meaning to brush off or sweep away.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Block s the concept of stopping something, which is pretty much the opposite of receiving.


My understanding of "uke" is that it refers to being on the receiving end, rather than the concept of accepting. So, "ukemi waza" is the group of techniques used when receiving a technique (in many arts, this is primarily falls and rolls). If (and that's a big "if") that's an accurate usage, then anything used on the receiving end could use the term "uke" - including blocks.


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## Hyoho (Feb 11, 2017)

Yes. That meaning of uke would be as in submissive. To have, take or receive. Ukemi translates as defensive, passive. To be on the defense but lose initiative.


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## Paul_D (Feb 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> My understanding of "uke" is that it refers to being on the receiving end, rather than the concept of accepting. So, "ukemi waza" is the group of techniques used when receiving a technique (in many arts, this is primarily falls and rolls). If (and that's a big "if") that's an accurate usage, then anything used on the receiving end could use the term "uke" - including blocks.


But then you haven't received anything as you've stopped it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> But then you haven't received anything as you've stopped it.


I think it's more a positional reference than a conceptual one. You're either giving the punch or receiving it. The person blocking is the receiver.


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## Paul_D (Feb 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think it's more a positional reference than a conceptual one. You're either giving the punch or receiving it. The person blocking is the receiver.


Which is one reason karate techniques still keep getting mistaken as blocks.


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## Hyoho (Feb 11, 2017)

Is all in the translation into a bastardized language like English that the problems occur. I have written page upon page about some simple Japanese words and statements that are written in less than a line in Japanese. 

We can block, parry, ward off, catch an attack acting as a receiver but basically in Japanese the verb used is ukeru because we are taking it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Is all in the translation into a bastardized language like English that the problems occur. I have written page upon page about some simple Japanese words and statements that are written in less than a line in Japanese.
> 
> We can block, parry, ward off, catch an attack acting as a receiver but basically in Japanese the verb used is ukeru because we are taking it.


Translating even between similar languages (e.g.: Italian and French) has issues. Japanese and English are such different kinds of languages, it's nearly impossible to get a real translation between them on almost anything. Everything ends up being the best translation for a given context, and translating an entire word (in all contexts) is nigh unto impossible.


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## Hyoho (Feb 11, 2017)

Lol yes I know. Seven or eight translations of Musashi's Gorin no Sho out there. All interpretations done by people that have never even practiced his art. I have a fair amount of work but put it online for free. All adapted into modern Japanese by my mentors.  I try to stick to the original Japanese words when possible.

Hyoho.com


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## punisher73 (Feb 12, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Block s the concept of stopping something, which is pretty much the opposite of receiving.



From a physical aspect I would agree.  When you apply it as a mental state, they are the same.  When receiving a punch, you mentally have to be accepting of it to remain in control of the situation.  I hope it doesn't sound like I am just playing semantics, but I think it is an important concept.  I wish I could find the video on youtube where an okinawan karate master is talking about this concept.  It was very well done.


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