# Officer stabbed in a school...



## Allen a.k.a. Destroyer (Oct 17, 2009)

Ok, I'm not entirely sure where this post would be most appropriate... but it seemed like a knife defense kind of thing...

I overheard local news talking about a high school kid (or was he middle school? i forget) walking into a school police officer's office area and just stabbing him with a knife.

Stupid. The kid had issues I'm sure... but that's not the reason for this post...

Instead of employing any kind of knife defense disarm and restraining the troubled kid... he pulled out his gun and shot him. Notice I said "had issues" in the earlier sentence. Mhm... "He's dead, Jim."

I understand that if someone is coming at you to cut/stab the odds are pretty high that you're gonna be cut/stabbed before you even realize there's a knife. Panic, ok... I understand that... But it just seems that police officers could use some serious regular training and not just police academy. I wonder how often most cops do any kind of training for things like that. Every time one of my area instructors has offered seminars for local police no one ever shows up. It's like they think they know it all, or their gun is the only answer they'll ever need, or is it just the mentality of the police in my area, or... I don't know... I'm no cop, maybe I should be.

My point here being a life could have been saved, thrown in a correctional facility and maybe had a chance to do something with their life. Yeah, maybe a longshot, but still...

Any thoughts?


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## KenpoTex (Oct 17, 2009)

You're bringing up two different issues:
1. Cops don't train as much as they should. 
2. Was the officer's response appropriate?

The first topic (cops and extra training) has been covered extensively...do a search.

As to the second issue:
If the facts are as you stated (student attack police officer with knife, officer shoots student) then I think the situation ended exactly as it should.  A knife attack is a deadly force situation.  Attempting to respond with anything less than deadly force is foolish and only serves to heighten the risk.  What if the officer had tried to "disarm and restrain" the student and was unsuccessful?  If the student took out the officer (even if by luck alone), who would have stopped him from attacking and possibly killing others?

All I can really say without more info...got a link to the story?


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 17, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> All I can really say without more info...got a link to the story?




Found this.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 17, 2009)

Jade Tigress said:


> Found this.



Thanks!  Based on that limited information, we don't know much about what happened yet.

However, in general, I would say that as a private citizen, no matter how much MA training and ability I had, if someone stabbed me with a knife and they still had the means to keep stabbing me, and I had a gun, I would not hesitate to shoot the person stabbing me.

Every situation is different, and we really do not know what the officer might or might not have been able to do instead of employing his sidearm.


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## Archangel M (Oct 17, 2009)

This one rates right up there with "why didnt he just shoot him in the leg or something".


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 17, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> This one rates right up there with "why didnt he just shoot him in the leg or something".



Yeah, I actually heard that again recently (about a different incident).  A person of above-average intelligence actually asked me why cops didn't shoot guns out of people's hands.  I'm sure Ed Topperwein could have done it, but I doubt anyone else can, especially while being bum-rushed and punched & kicked & bit, in the dark, at close range, etc, etc.


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## shesulsa (Oct 17, 2009)

Man, I was *just* having this conversation with an old high school buddy!

Knife attacks are often under-appreciated.  The knife is teh d34dly and very personal.  You don't "accidentally" stab someone 37 times, ya know what I'm saying?

Let me ask the OP - Allen a.k.a. Destroyer - what do you think was the motive behind the stabbing? What do you think the person with the knife was trying to do to the officer, exactly? 

Tickle him?
Nick him so he needed a band-aid?
Help him shave?

I seriously doubt his motives were anything but killing him or at the very least, doing him serious and possibly permanent harm.  Perhaps his motive was to get the officer's gun and pull a Columbine.

This, friend, is why we train ... is it not?  And it is why the police (and others) carry firearms.  If the student initiated the attack then the officer was definitely within most policies to use the sidearm.  In some locations, you don't have to wait for the attack - if the suspect *draws* a knife you can fire, but I'm fairly certain that varies from city to city, city to county to state, etcetera.

It is sad someone had to die - I won't be cavalier - but this sounds (right now and without all the facts, of course) justified.


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## Archangel M (Oct 17, 2009)

I'd have shot him if he even displayed a knife and was advancing on me...screw trying to disarm him. Anybody who proposes knife disarms as anything except a last ditch, do or die, proposition knows little about the realities of self-defense.


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## jks9199 (Oct 17, 2009)

Allen a.k.a. Destroyer said:


> Ok, I'm not entirely sure where this post would be most appropriate... but it seemed like a knife defense kind of thing...
> 
> I overheard local news talking about a high school kid (or was he middle school? i forget) walking into a school police officer's office area and just stabbing him with a knife.
> 
> ...


This was a classic knife attack.  No warning, just stab, and you're bleeding.  You don't know how badly you're hurt, you don't know who else he's going to stab.  The cop did exactly the right thing; he utilized lethal force in response to lethal force used against him, and which was still able to be used against others.

I guarantee the cop didn't go to work that morning saying "I wanna shoot a kid today!"  I guarantee he's not thrilled or happy that he killed someone -- but he may well be thrilled that he's alive and returning home to his family.


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## Allen a.k.a. Destroyer (Oct 17, 2009)

Maybe I asked that simply because I don't go around carrying a gun. That's a mindset I'm not familiar with (see also: yet). But that's why I posted here, to see what the experts had to say.

You're all right... I just didn't think about it like that.

Thanks, I'll do a search and see what else I can find on police and their training (sorry, just joined the forum).


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## KenpoTex (Oct 17, 2009)

Allen a.k.a. Destroyer said:


> Thanks, I'll do a search and see what else I can find on police and their training (sorry, just joined the forum).



here are a couple of threads on the subject to get you started:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60894
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60013


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## Guro Harold (Oct 17, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> here are a couple of threads on the subject to get you started:
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60894
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60013



Thanks for taking the time to gather this info!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 18, 2009)

From the information we have it would appear that the officer responded appropriately.  Lethal force was brought to bear by the knife wielding attacker and the officer responded in kind to save his life.  I am sure that everyone involved is upset about the situation as well because it is tragic and yet from all accounts to this point the officer acted appropriately.


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## lklawson (Oct 19, 2009)

Allen a.k.a. Destroyer said:


> Any thoughts?


Yes.

Knives are freaking *DANGEROUS* and I completely support the LEO's decision.  There are just so blasted *many* places on the human body where you can bleed a man out in bare minutes.

You don't screw around with a knife.  Light him up.  Slap leather and get busy.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Oct 19, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yeah, I actually heard that again recently (about a different incident).  A person of above-average intelligence actually asked me why cops didn't shoot guns out of people's hands.


Oh for crying out loud.

Sure, I'll say try "shooting the gun out of his hand" as soon as the start issuing .45 LC rounds made of silver and a fiery steed of the same name.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Oct 19, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> What do you think the person with the knife was trying to do to the officer, exactly?
> 
> Tickle him?


"You might tickle a fellow's ribs a long time with 
this instrument, Colonel, before you'd make him 
laugh,"​Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Oct 19, 2009)

Allen a.k.a. Destroyer said:


> Maybe I asked that simply because I don't go around carrying a gun. That's a mindset I'm not familiar with (see also: yet).


It's the same mind set as studying martial arts for self defense instead of "self improvement."

It's like Insurance.  You really REALLY hope you don't have to use it.  Ever.  But just in case your house catches on fire or your car slides off the road, you've got that insurance.

A big difference is that there's a lot more training required to use this kind of insurance responsibly.  Recognizing when you are being threatened with Deadly Force is one of those training requirements.

See section 10, "Deadly Force and the Force Continuum" of the Newbie's Guide to Self Defense:

http://lklawson.isa-geek.org/sync/Martial_Arts/Newbies_Guide_to_Self_Defense_1-0.txt

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## punisher73 (Oct 19, 2009)

Thought I would post this, since it shows REAL knife attacks caught on tape, some of them involving LEO's.





 
Watch all the videos and you will see, that in close range and with a knife you are at a disadvantage even if you do have a firearm.  Think about it...You have a crazy person with a knife and you shoot them right in center mass and take out their heart, how long before they know their dead?  How long can you keep going?  Even 3-5 seconds is a LONG time for someone to keep attacking you with a knife.

Also, watch the videos and think to yourself...Would those disarms they taught me REALLY work against someone like that?  Would I want to be that close to try?  What happens when I'm that close and it doesn't work?


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## INDYFIGHTER (Oct 19, 2009)

The LEO was in the right.  Had he hesitated he could have been killed and then the wacko kid would have had access to his firearm putting everyone in that school in danger.  He did his job.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 20, 2009)

Allen a.k.a. Destroyer said:


> Ok, I'm not entirely sure where this post would be most appropriate... but it seemed like a knife defense kind of thing...
> 
> I overheard local news talking about a high school kid (or was he middle school? i forget) walking into a school police officer's office area and just stabbing him with a knife.
> 
> ...



A knife is lethal force........period.  The appropriate response to lethal force is not slap and tickle.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 20, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> This one rates right up there with "why didnt he just shoot him in the leg or something".



Yeah, no kidding........bottom line, the officer not only has an obligation to protect his OWN life........but if he gets taken out, now the kid not only has a knife, but he also has a GUN!


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 20, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I'd have shot him if he even displayed a knife and was advancing on me...screw trying to disarm him. Anybody who proposes knife disarms as anything except a last ditch, do or die, proposition knows little about the realities of self-defense.



Anyone who suggests choosing to go hands on with a knife attacker IF the other option is easily shoot them, obviously knows ZERO about knife attacks and defense and how they usually turn out......Uncle Kim's Esoteric skills of the Orient knife disarm class aside.

That's no slight against the OP........we all have had some poor ideas at one time or another.  The fact that Destroyer asks illustrates an interest in learning........so let this be the first lesson.  Knives are DANGEROUS!


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## tallgeese (Oct 24, 2009)

I think just about all the responses are dead on here.  

The officer was presented with a deadly force threat and responded in an appropriate manner.

Sounds like a good shoot to me.


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## seasoned (Oct 24, 2009)

Once the officer was stabbed, the threat needed to be stopped. Shooting the suspect was the logical thing to do, for fear of arming the suspect not only with a knife, but the officers firearm as well.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 24, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Once the officer was stabbed, the threat needed to be stopped. Shooting the suspect was the logical thing to do, for fear of arming the suspect not only with a knife, but the officers firearm as well.


 Excellent point!

It's a point I believe many people miss when the discussion of law enforcement use of force comes up.  Many people forget (or never understand) the fact that an LEO's job is not only protect himself from harm, but ALSO to intervene to protect society from the actions of individuals who have shown, by word and deed, that they intend to harm others.  

It's an important point, because unlike the average person, who retreating from the situation is enough, the LEO's job IS to stop the situation using whatever means are necessary.......so even in situations where the LEO may possibly be able to retreat, he is mandated, if the situation requires, to engage and end a threat to the public as a whole, and not retreat if retreating would allow a threat to continue.


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## Allen a.k.a. Destroyer (Oct 25, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> A knife is lethal force........period. The appropriate response to lethal force is not slap and tickle.


 
Tickle..? You *really* don't know me. lol

But seriously... The opinions here have definitely gotten me considering firearms for personal defense again. It's just a matter of training, permit, and finding a favorite.

If anyone has any reccomendations as to caliber or great places to get a conceal and carry permit for multiple states (I travel a little) etc. I would welcome the input. Please send me a pm. Thanks! I've kinda got my eye on a .45 silvertip round after reading a reccomendation in this:
http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/external/surviving_armed_assaults, 
something that would stop a person dead in their tracks. Guns were made for a singular purpose afterall... why get something that takes 4 or 5 shots to do it? I've heard stories of guys taking entire revolver loads of a smaller caliber and still come for a few seconds... If i had to draw, I wouldn't want to give them that much time.

And I swear... next person that suggests I "tickle" to disarm... oh hell no. In combat hapkido we have these things called military combatives... yeah... it's called a maim. Usually a permanent condition...

*Definitions of 'maim'* 
(m&#257;m) 



Dictionary.com · The American Heritage® Dictionary - (2 definitions)


[Middle English_ maimen_, from Old French_ mahaignier_; see mayhem.]
*(transitive verb: maimed, maim·ing, maims.)*


To disable or disfigure, usually by depriving of the use of a limb or other part of the body. See synonyms at batter1
To make imperfect or defective; impair.
*(derivatives)*

maim&#769;er noun
Synonyms
cripple 
dismember 
mutilate


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## Allen a.k.a. Destroyer (Oct 25, 2009)

lklawson said:


> See section 10, "Deadly Force and the Force Continuum" of the Newbie's Guide to Self Defense:
> 
> http://lklawson.isa-geek.org/sync/Martial_Arts/Newbies_Guide_to_Self_Defense_1-0.txt


 
Thanks Kirk! I'll definitely read through it all, as well.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 25, 2009)

Allen a.k.a. Destroyer said:


> Tickle..? You *really* don't know me. lol
> 
> But seriously... The opinions here have definitely gotten me considering firearms for personal defense again. It's just a matter of training, permit, and finding a favorite.
> 
> ...




Knives kill.  Anything you can do with your hands, can be done far more efficiently with a blade....and MORE.....you can't disembowel with your barehands.......you can't severe arteries and nerves, penetrate to vital organs, severe limbs.......and therein lies the disparity.


With all due respect to Hapkido....and Hapkido is an excellent art....it's not primarily a blade art, even though it teaches knife defense.  

The FMA's are blade arts.......I recommend supplementing your knowledge in the knife with the FMA's.  A different perspective is gained by actively training in the offensive use of the blade.  It grants one a better understanding and respect of the blade than simply training defense drills against wooden and plastic training knives.  

Training the offensive mindset of how to to penetrate another persons defenses with a blade for maximum damage tends to bust a lot of 'Knife defense' myths.




Check out Dog Brothers DLO 1 and 2. 




RESPECT THE BLADE!


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## Allen a.k.a. Destroyer (Oct 25, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Knives kill. Anything you can do with your hands, can be done far more efficiently with a blade....and MORE.....you can't disembowel with your barehands.......you can't severe arteries and nerves, penetrate to vital organs, severe limbs.......and therein lies the disparity.
> 
> 
> With all due respect to Hapkido....and Hapkido is an excellent art....it's not primarily a blade art, even though it teaches knife defense.
> ...


 
Right. Thanks for the link. It's just that you are the second person to suggest I "tickle" to *disarm*. I just wanted to clarify.

My long time sparring partner and training buddy trains across the country in a school that does some FMA. We get together on occasion and swap training methods and techniques. And of course, spar. One of the more interesting knife drills involved trying to disarm or stop the attack when it wasn't a preset attack just for technique practice's sake. But even then, there's a flaw in drills like that... you still know there's a knife coming. 

Comic relief: Maybe I need to hire someone like Kato from the Pink Panther movies (the first ones) to just randomly attack me with weapons to keep me "sharp". lol kidding


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 25, 2009)

Allen a.k.a. Destroyer said:


> Right. Thanks for the link. It's just that you are the second person to suggest I "tickle" to *disarm*. I just wanted to clarify.
> 
> My long time sparring partner and training buddy trains across the country in a school that does some FMA. We get together on occasion and swap training methods and techniques. And of course, spar. One of the more interesting knife drills involved trying to disarm or stop the attack when it wasn't a preset attack just for technique practice's sake. But even then, there's a flaw in drills like that... you still know there's a knife coming.
> 
> Comic relief: Maybe I need to hire someone like Kato from the Pink Panther movies (the first ones) to just randomly attack me with weapons to keep me "sharp". lol kidding



Good idea! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA8QrOAghZ0&feature=related


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## lklawson (Oct 26, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> The FMA's are blade arts.......


Some of them, yes.



> I recommend supplementing your knowledge in the knife with the FMA's.


Or *ANY *primarily knife/blade oriented art.

Granted, FMA's are generally more available, but they're not the only thing going.



> A different perspective is gained by actively training in the offensive use of the blade.  It grants one a better understanding and respect of the blade than simply training defense drills against wooden and plastic training knives.


I distinctly recall the first time I started applying standard knife offense to Tomiki Tanto Randori as the attacker.  I'd never done Tanto Randori before and didn't know the "rules."  After slashing the ever living crap out of my randori opponent, I was unceremoniously informed that I was attacking wrong (you've seen the Jim Carrey karate skit, right?).  Seems that the only legal attack with the tanto in Tanto Randori is a fully committed thrust to the torso concomitant with a step.  Think "reverse punch while holding a tanto."

And even then people were getting "stabbed" by a foam tube "tanto" more often than they were defending against it.



> Training the offensive mindset of how to to penetrate another persons defenses with a blade for maximum damage tends to bust a lot of 'Knife defense' myths.


"No Lie" blades, magic markers, and "Shok-Knives" are fun tools as well.



> Check out Dog Brothers DLO 1 and 2.


I like the DB stuff.  Good group.  Love their catch phrase.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Allen a.k.a. Destroyer (Nov 1, 2009)

Shock... knives..? *raises eyebrow*
Search reveals www.shocknife.com  this..?

Oh my... a very nice play pretty. Er, I mean... Training Tool! Yes, for training... hahah. Too bad I'm not a school owner yet, lol. Can't afford that now. Maybe I can talk an instructor into getting certified. It's a great idea!

As for "attacking wrong"... no. Bleeding to death from many slashes and stabs is just as effective as a good stab in the heart, lung or other vital organ. I've seen that skit: 



 "You attacked me wrong!" lol


Kudos on the movie link sgtmac! Nail on the head.

Humor is the spice of life.


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## lklawson (Nov 2, 2009)

Allen a.k.a. Destroyer said:


> Shock... knives..? *raises eyebrow*
> Search reveals www.shocknife.com  this..?
> 
> Oh my... a very nice play pretty. Er, I mean... Training Tool! Yes, for training... hahah. Too bad I'm not a school owner yet, lol. Can't afford that now. Maybe I can talk an instructor into getting certified. It's a great idea!


They're still just a training tool, of course.  They've got some drawbacks as well.  No tool is perfect.  They're *HARD *so some of the things you do in sparring might need to be passed on or such.  I'd say not to snipe to the hands with these bad boys.  Too easy to break a small bone.  And you should be aware that not everyone reacts the same way.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.  Part of the goal of "Shock-Knives" is to push adrenal stress and adrenal dumps.  I let myself go into adrenal dump pretty easily in pretty much all of my sparring (knife/bowie/'hawk/singlestick/bata/Judo/whatever).  So I accept that my fine motor skills are impacted, though not so much as some others - I've learned how to work around/with and somewhat mitigate, but there's only so much you can do; tying a shoe is rough, give up threading a needle.

Anyway, I'm getting away from myself here.  So, when a friend of mine brought Shock Knives to a seminar, I had to try them out.  I barely felt them, even at the highest setting, during sparring.  Adrenal dump.  Yeah, they're freaking intimidating sounding when you trigger the button; sparks flashing and cracking loudly all over.  But I felt only a sort of distant buzzing feeling when they hit me.  I imagine if someone snuck up behind me while I was unaware and jammed one in my side I'd darn well feel it.  But not while Fight or Flight was coursing through my veins.

And that's not a bad thing.  It's an important lesson.  There's a reason that some tough cusses can take such a beating and keep coming, all busted up and broken.  Some people are conditioned to ignore pain and some people are Adrenal Dumping.  God help you.  You can stink'n well *KILL* a person and his body just not know it yet.  Word to the wise.

Another issue with the "Shock Knives" is that they're expensive as all heck.  Last time I checked there were some mil surplus firearms that cost less.  And, despite the price, they're still mechanical devices that are vulnerable to breakage, loss, theft, and general wear (one of those Shock Knives my friend brought just plain broke during the weekend).

I understand that there may be someone making a competing product but I've not yet seen one in person (or even piccys on the net).  So there's a bit of single-source vendor lock in as well unless you're willing to try to build your own (I'm working on a set but back shelved them last year because of time constraints).



> As for "attacking wrong"... no. Bleeding to death from many slashes and stabs is just as effective as a good stab in the heart, lung or other vital organ.


In the Western Martial Arts (WMA) tradition there is a debate dating back centuries (quite literally) over which is more effective the cut or the thrust.  I've seen historic documents arguing one side or the other from the very distant past (think "Romans") and just two weeks ago saw a modern debate on the same topic in another popular fourm devoted to WMA blade skills.



> I've seen that skit:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's a spice that has a taste of truth to it.  Makes it memorable.  We're fortunate that the skit was recorded.  I'm still hunting for the William Shatner SNL skits online.  They must be there, right?  ;-)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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