# "Mandatory" Events!!!



## 11 Bravo Infantry (Apr 9, 2011)

So,

My question is....have any of you ever had the displeasure of being told that, you HAVE to attend events (eg., tournaments, camps, seminars, etc.), or risk being passed over for promotion?!

I've never understood this policy! When the organization head tells school owners/instructors to MAKE their students compete, or they won't be considered for testing, to ME...seems  wrong. 

Now, I realize that it is a business....But come on. Encouraging students to compete, or attend camps is one thing, but FORCING them?! This just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, where organizations are concerned.


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## girlbug2 (Apr 9, 2011)

I practice a martial art other than Tang Soo Do, but yes the instructor has added requirements in the last year for students in my school to obtain their brown and black belts in Krav Maga. These requirements include successful completion of a certain number of seminars and courses outside the regular curriculum, including:

A certified firearms training course (a local instructor teaches it who happens to go to our school, but we have the option of getting certified with any instructor)
Carjacking seminar (taught by our instructor)
Third Party Gun Defense seminar (taught at our school by guest instructor)
Knife defense seminar, beginning and advanced (taught at our school by guest instructor)

There are a few others, but you get the idea.

The intent as I understand it, is to ensure that our martial art is fully explored, as it is not focused only on "open hand" techniques that we practice daily at school but also involves weapons. I can see the point of it, although it is inconvenient at times. OTOh we dont' have to participate in any kind of camp, competitions or tournaments. Personally I don't see the value in requiring that for students; that kind of thing should be something done for personal enjoyment IMO.


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## poollshark (Apr 9, 2011)

11 Bravo Infantry said:


> So,
> 
> My question is....have any of you ever had the displeasure of being told that, you HAVE to attend events (eg., tournaments, camps, seminars, etc.), or risk being passed over for promotion?!
> 
> ...


I don't think I'd be thrilled to be told that and it might cause me to reevaluate if the school and I are a proper match. Now possibly a required seminar or something of that nature for advanced students that has a particular purpose but isn't feasible for my regular classes might be reasonable.
I think it's something I'd address on a case by case basis.

George


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## puunui (Apr 9, 2011)

I used to have a requirement that all students have to compete in one sparring tournament before they get promoted to 1st Dan. But I relaxed off that and don't require that anymore.


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## 11 Bravo Infantry (Apr 10, 2011)

poollshark said:


> I don't think I'd be thrilled to be told that and it might cause me to reevaluate if the school and I are a proper match. Now possibly a required seminar or something of that nature for advanced students that has a particular purpose but isn't feasible for my regular classes might be reasonable.
> I think it's something I'd address on a case by case basis.
> 
> George



I completely agree. It just frustrates me, because, again, even though I KNOW it's a business...FORCING students to compete, or go to karate camp is just ridiculous!
Ugh!!


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## DMcHenry (Apr 10, 2011)

One of the styles I trained in had that requirement. At certain levels, you also had to attend a summer camp too.

For a while, I began requiring my students to collect so many 'points' for promotion, which could be gotten from various things, including tournaments, seminars, etc.

I don't mind having to attend for a certain amount of experience (tournaments, seminars, etc) but I wouldn't want to be told that I "have" to attend any particular event.


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## Manny (Apr 11, 2011)

I wasn't a competitor, in fact I think I compete in no more than 10 tournaments from green to black belt. TKD is a very competitive martial art, my fisrt tournament was as a green belt so I started not to early as you may see. I sparred in local and regional tournaments the most.

When I reached red belt status my sambonim told me to become a black belt I will HAVE to assit or teach a minimum of 100 hours and atenden 5 black belt tournaments as a minimum. As I wrote above I never been a competitor and sparr in 5 tournaments minimun in one year was a little harsh to me buy I'll have to so I did it.

In the actual dojang where I train and teach the students don't have to go tornaments to earn his black belt, offcourse it's desireable but no mandatory.

Manny


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## miguksaram (Apr 11, 2011)

11 Bravo Infantry said:


> So,
> 
> My question is....have any of you ever had the displeasure of being told that, you HAVE to attend events (eg., tournaments, camps, seminars, etc.), or risk being passed over for promotion?!
> 
> ...



Why is it wrong?  If an instructor is upfront with a new student and says...hey you must attend these events if you are to considered for certain ranks...then what is the big deal?  The student signs up knowing what is required of them.  

Let's say they don't mention it.  Ok..not a good policy, but none the less this is what is required.  You don't agree with it..fine, you are more than welcome to leave and go to another school once you fulfill any contractual obligations.


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## miguksaram (Apr 11, 2011)

puunui said:


> I used to have a requirement that all students have to compete in one sparring tournament before they get promoted to 1st Dan. But I relaxed off that and don't require that anymore.



We are required to participate in at least two events per rank be it a inner school tournament or an outside school tournament.  We have been let some students slide if tournaments were not available during their stint in a particular rank.  

We have never had any complaints about this requirement.


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## Nomad (Apr 11, 2011)

What's wrong with "compulsory fun"?


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## 11 Bravo Infantry (Apr 11, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Why is it wrong?  If an instructor is upfront with a new student and says...hey you must attend these events if you are to considered for certain ranks...then what is the big deal?  The student signs up knowing what is required of them.
> 
> Let's say they don't mention it.  Ok..not a good policy, but none the less this is what is required.  You don't agree with it..fine, you are more than welcome to leave and go to another school once you fulfill any contractual obligations.



Sorry if I struck a nerve. I love to compete. But I certainly don't want to be TOLD that I MUST compete, or be passed over for promotion. We all know what tournaments, camps and seminars are. I've seen students, who couldn't afford the aforementioned and barely could scrape up enough for tuition, who STILL were expected to shell out money for tourneys and camps. Or, again, NOT be considered for promotion! 

And by the way, when I first started, years ago....I was never told of tournaments, camps and seminars being mandatory, or you wouldn't be considered for testing. If so, I would have walked. Like I said, encouraging students is one thing. But forcing them, is quite another entirely.


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## miguksaram (Apr 12, 2011)

11 Bravo Infantry said:


> Sorry if I struck a nerve. I love to compete. But I certainly don't want to be TOLD that I MUST compete, or be passed over for promotion.


You did not strike a nerve, but if you don't like the policy...leave.



> We all know what tournaments, camps and seminars are.


What are they?



> I've seen students, who couldn't afford the aforementioned and barely could scrape up enough for tuition, who STILL were expected to shell out money for tourneys and camps. Or, again, NOT be considered for promotion!


Again, if this  school was  not upfront then yes..it is bad policy and people who do not want  to follow the policy or can not afford the policy should have the  option of being let out of any financial responsibilities to the  school.  HOWEVER....if in their contract it was so stated, then this  falls into the buyer beware policy. Don't sign without reading.



> And by the way, when I first started, years ago....I was never told of tournaments, camps and seminars being mandatory, or you wouldn't be considered for testing. If so, I would have walked. Like I said, encouraging students is one thing. But forcing them, is quite another entirely.


Now if requirements changed over the years during your stay there, the perhaps it is time to part ways if you do not agree with the policy change.  If they are doing this for money then the best way to squash such a thing is leave and hit them where it hurts....their bottom line.


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## Archangel M (Apr 12, 2011)

I fail to see what tournament competition has to offer vis a vis rank/experience other than advertising for the school or an ego boost for the instructor when tropheys are won.

I think that the "manditory" seminars about firearms, self-defense laws, etc as mentioned upthread have more value.


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## puunui (Apr 12, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> If an instructor is upfront with a new student and says...hey you must attend these events if you are to considered for certain ranks...then what is the big deal?  The student signs up knowing what is required of them.




I remember in Judo everyone would compete at all of the tournaments, which were held pretty frequently. There wasn't any question about it, and we treated it like how players in any other sport treated games -- it was part of the experience. You naturally think that you will be suiting up and going to the game, and if you don't plan on going, you needed to tell the coach you are going to be absent.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 13, 2011)

Nomad said:


> What's wrong with "compulsory fun"?



The fact that it is compulsory.
What you think of as 'fun' may be something I really don't like.


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## dancingalone (Apr 13, 2011)

I believe in judo you must compete to advance to dan rank.  Apparently, there is precedent for the practice.  I don't see a big deal myself so long as the requirements are revealed upfront.  I can understand the OP getting a little chapped if this was added after he joined and had been training for a matter of years.


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## sfs982000 (Apr 14, 2011)

In my school they highly encourage competing in tournaments, which is fine, but not necessarily my cup of tea.  I do know that I'll be limited as far as advancing higher than 2nd Dan by not competing, right or wrong I've accepted that.  It was explained to my upfront and I do plan on crossing that bridge when I get to it.  Right now I'm just enjoying the training I'm getting and making the most of it.  
I would have to agree with the majority of the responses that if it wasn't explained up front that the individual would have a right to be upset, but if the instructors are honest up front the individuals only options are to keep shopping around for a school that fits what they're looking for or accept the terms.


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## miguksaram (Apr 14, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> I fail to see what tournament competition has to offer vis a vis rank/experience other than advertising for the school or an ego boost for the instructor when tropheys are won.
> 
> I think that the "manditory" seminars about firearms, self-defense laws, etc as mentioned upthread have more value.



So do you believe any type of competition is useless?  Basketball, baseball, soccer, etc.  Do you see all competition as just an outlet for those to boost their ego?

There are a lot more lessons to be learn in competition than just winning a piece of hard plastic.  It is too bad you can't see that.


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## miguksaram (Apr 14, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> The fact that it is compulsory.
> What you think of as 'fun' may be something I really don't like.



Then don't go to a school that has mandatory competition as a part of their belt requirements.


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## miguksaram (Apr 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I believe in judo you must compete to advance to dan rank.  Apparently, there is precedent for the practice.  I don't see a big deal myself so long as the requirements are revealed upfront.  I can understand the OP getting a little chapped if this was added after he joined and had been training for a matter of years.



Yes, I could see being upset as well.  However, things change and if you disagree with those changes then leave.  If enough students quit due to this change then the school owners may very well get the hint that they need to re-evaluate that part of their requirement.


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2011)

You know god gave us a mind to evaluate everything our life has to offer, what one may see as a problem other see's as a value. With that being said if you do not like what the cook is cooking than leave the kitchen, it really is that simple. Just for the record I personally cannot seeing demandind any of my students to do a tournament, I will suggest and tell them why I believe it is good for them but bottom line is they need to make that decission.


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I believe in judo you must compete to advance to dan rank.  Apparently, there is precedent for the practice.



I was looking at an old Judo Handbook from I think the AAU program which showed the promotion requirements. Those who competed at tournaments and won were promoted much faster than those that did not compete, I want to say five or ten times faster.


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## Nomad (Apr 14, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> The fact that it is compulsory.
> What you think of as 'fun' may be something I really don't like.



That was why I put quotes around "compulsory fun".  It's very much an oxymoron like "political solutions" or "military intelligence", and tends to go hand-in-hand with "being volunteered" for something. 

The very act of making something that you would normally find fun compulsory somehow makes it automatically less fun...


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## dancingalone (Apr 14, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Yes, I could see being upset as well.  However, things change and if you disagree with those changes then leave.  If enough students quit due to this change then the school owners may very well get the hint that they need to re-evaluate that part of their requirement.



True, but I think there's some room in there for dissent rather than "Love it or leave it".  A wise school owner will listen to his senior students and give then leeway as needed or deserved.  I wouldn't tell someone who has been training with me for years that they need to start going to tournaments or else no more promotions.


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## Montecarlodrag (Apr 17, 2011)

The moment you start enforcing events, students will start to leave.

As a Dojang owner, you can make a mandatory event once a year, but not every seminar and tournament because it will only upset people.

Students have a life, they also have to go to school/work and have to pay many other things.


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## Phenix_Rider (Apr 18, 2011)

Ugh, now I "have to" go to a SWAT seminar *rolleyes* for all the higher gup/kyu ranks.  

Really, if I had been asked to go it wouldn't be a big deal.  I'm in there at least two hours on saturdays anyway, training and assisting.  A seminar to standardize teaching practice and polish leadership skills is a good thing.  But my issue is, it's up on the white board "MANDATORY" and $25.  That bothers me.  I'm trying to cut back expenses so I can leave my apartment and buy a house.  Which means I'm skipping all the optional (paid) classes while still attempting to advance my traning, as well as cutting back in other areas of my life.  (Not eating lunch, eating out less, not buying anything I don't need, eating cheap on travel so I can keep per diem, keeping the heat way down, etc, etc)

I've already been reconsidering my fit in this school.  Seems to me like business practice is over riding teaching practice, and that doesn't sit well with me.  I especially don't like to see that an event I have to pay for is mandatory.  Then there's the dynamic between the owner and his son...  I won't go into that, other than to mention the son just skipped his second dan test.  As in, didn't bother going in front of the head of the association.  Just didn't test at all, when he had been scheduled to test for months.  

I'm almost looking forward to a new school, besides dreading searching a good one out.


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## Phenix_Rider (Apr 18, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> So do you believe any type of competition is useless? Basketball, baseball, soccer, etc. Do you see all competition as just an outlet for those to boost their ego?
> 
> There are a lot more lessons to be learn in competition than just winning a piece of hard plastic. It is too bad you can't see that.


 
Not useless at all.  BUT those sports are entirely based around competition.  If you want to set up a martial arts school/club like a sports team/club so be it.  If you say UP FRONT "You will be expected at every game/tournament" that's different than what I'm hearing here.  Neither have I seen a sports club where you pay dues, and on top of that, pay for every segment of every event you must compete in.  If you bill a school as "traditional" or "self defense" then making tournament competition a requirement is wrong.  Most modern tournament rules have absolutely nothing to do with self defense.  The way I see it, you can make something compulsory or exact a fee for it, not both.  

If you want to make it a requirement for rank, it should be included in the dues.  One quarter of a month's dues for ten students (here I'm talking about my SWAT seminar) isn't going to hurt a business.


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## jks9199 (Apr 18, 2011)

Phenix_Rider said:


> Ugh, now I "have to" go to a SWAT seminar *rolleyes* for all the higher gup/kyu ranks.
> 
> Really, if I had been asked to go it wouldn't be a big deal.  I'm in there at least two hours on saturdays anyway, training and assisting.  A seminar to standardize teaching practice and polish leadership skills is a good thing.  But my issue is, it's up on the white board "MANDATORY" and $25.  That bothers me.  I'm trying to cut back expenses so I can leave my apartment and buy a house.  Which means I'm skipping all the optional (paid) classes while still attempting to advance my traning, as well as cutting back in other areas of my life.  (Not eating lunch, eating out less, not buying anything I don't need, eating cheap on travel so I can keep per diem, keeping the heat way down, etc, etc)
> 
> ...



Sounds like you may have a fit problem with that school.  I don't like that they're mandating students pay for things unexpectedly.

On a side note -- don't skip lunch.  Pack it.  You'll save a boatload of money unless you really cram a lot in when you pack it, and you'll probably eat healthier.


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## miguksaram (Apr 18, 2011)

Phenix_Rider said:


> Not useless at all.  BUT those sports are entirely based around competition.  If you want to set up a martial arts school/club like a sports team/club so be it.  If you say UP FRONT "You will be expected at every game/tournament" that's different than what I'm hearing here.



That doesn't really pertain to my comment I made.  The poster said that competition in martial arts is about boosting ego.  With that logic you can say competition in anything is about boosting egos regardless of how it original structure is set up.



> Neither have I seen a sports club where you pay dues, and on top of that, pay for every segment of every event you must compete in.


I believe gymnastics, ice skating, speed skating, fencing and there are others out there that you have to pay for your gym fees, association fees, etc. and still pay for your own competition fees.  



> If you bill a school as "traditional" or "self defense" then making tournament competition a requirement is wrong.  Most modern tournament rules have absolutely nothing to do with self defense.  The way I see it, you can make something compulsory or exact a fee for it, not both.



Why is it wrong.  Judo, Taekwondo, Kyokushin are just a few that are traditional martial arts and implement sports aspect.  Plus are you saying a school that has scenario/scripted self defense moves are more geared for streets than those those who also do tournaments?



> If you want to make it a requirement for rank, it should be included in the dues.  One quarter of a month's dues for ten students (here I'm talking about my SWAT seminar) isn't going to hurt a business.



Then perhaps they should jack up your dues to cover the cost of the SWAT seminar.


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## miguksaram (Apr 18, 2011)

Phenix_Rider said:


> Ugh, now I "have to" go to a SWAT seminar *rolleyes* for all the higher gup/kyu ranks.
> 
> Really, if I had been asked to go it wouldn't be a big deal.  I'm in there at least two hours on saturdays anyway, training and assisting.  A seminar to standardize teaching practice and polish leadership skills is a good thing.  But my issue is, it's up on the white board "MANDATORY" and $25.  That bothers me.  I'm trying to cut back expenses so I can leave my apartment and buy a house.  Which means I'm skipping all the optional (paid) classes while still attempting to advance my traning, as well as cutting back in other areas of my life.  (Not eating lunch, eating out less, not buying anything I don't need, eating cheap on travel so I can keep per diem, keeping the heat way down, etc, etc)
> 
> ...



I think you should cut your loses and move on to a different school.  At this point you know what they are about and it doesn't look like they will be changing anytime soon.


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## sfs982000 (Apr 18, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I think you should cut your loses and move on to a different school. At this point you know what they are about and it doesn't look like they will be changing anytime soon.


 

I would have to agree, at this point it's pretty obvious what the school is about and if you're not happy with the instruction or business practices they conduct you'll be a lot happier finding another school to attend.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 18, 2011)

Nomad said:


> That was why I put quotes around "compulsory fun".  It's very much an oxymoron like "political solutions" or "military intelligence", and tends to go hand-in-hand with "being volunteered" for something.
> 
> The very act of making something that you would normally find fun compulsory somehow makes it automatically less fun...



My bad. Thanks for the explanation


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## Gabriel Binette (Apr 24, 2011)

11 Bravo Infantry said:


> So,
> 
> My question is....have any of you ever had the displeasure of being told that, you HAVE to attend events (eg., tournaments, camps, seminars, etc.), or risk being passed over for promotion?!
> 
> ...



i heard thats an ATA thing. are you ATA?


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## ganglian (Apr 24, 2011)

11 Bravo Infantry said:


> So,
> 
> My question is....have any of you ever had the displeasure of being told that, you HAVE to attend events (eg., tournaments, camps, seminars, etc.), or risk being passed over for promotion?!
> 
> ...




A business is also a service, you should start with questioning the teahcer's motives at that point imo


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## 11 Bravo Infantry (Apr 25, 2011)

Gabriel Binette said:


> i heard thats an ATA thing. are you ATA?



I've never heard of ata.....no, I am not.


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## OldKarateGuy (May 14, 2011)

In my original Judo school, promotion included sparring with (randori) and beating several students of the rank being tested for. Obviously, competing at tournaments made that more familiar. In addition, one was expected to support the dojo by attending special events, including tournaments, when possible. However, there was no requirement and no rules about it.

In JKA shotokan, dan tests are traditionally only offered at camps and/or special events, like a national/North American tournament, or perhaps a seminar from a visiting senior dan from Japan. If you were going to take a dan test, you were expected to attend (and pay for) the event. An old saying...'Your black belt test starts the first day of camp." If you couldn't be bothered to attend and participate with energy, you probably were not going to pass your test. An unwritten rule, but enforced fairly strictly. It was partially about the money, but also about the dedication and commitment being displayed. Along the lines of "Too good to attend camp and learn from the experts? You probably don't need a new black belt rank." There was no corresponding unwritten rule about kyu ranks, although it never hurt to have the senior dan in your region/association see you at camps and tournaments. 

In my current organization (WTSDA), our region tried to encourage students to attend at least two (out of three or four) regional events per year (tournaments, camps, clinics, etc). It used to be a requirement for dan-level tests, but we don't enforce it. Times are tough.

A school that requires a financial commitment for supplemental events - especially that benefit the school - should make those requirements clear from the beginning. I must admit I don't like the idea, but understand that most (?) martial arts schools are a business, first and foremost. If the instructor can't afford to keep the school open, then all the great instruction in the world won't help.


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## puunui (May 16, 2011)

OldKarateGuy said:


> In JKA shotokan, dan tests are traditionally only offered at camps and/or special events, like a national/North American tournament, or perhaps a seminar from a visiting senior dan from Japan. If you were going to take a dan test, you were expected to attend (and pay for) the event. An old saying...'Your black belt test starts the first day of camp." If you couldn't be bothered to attend and participate with energy, you probably were not going to pass your test. An unwritten rule, but enforced fairly strictly. It was partially about the money, but also about the dedication and commitment being displayed. Along the lines of "Too good to attend camp and learn from the experts? You probably don't need a new black belt rank." There was no corresponding unwritten rule about kyu ranks, although it never hurt to have the senior dan in your region/association see you at camps and tournaments.
> 
> In my current organization (WTSDA), our region tried to encourage students to attend at least two (out of three or four) regional events per year (tournaments, camps, clinics, etc). It used to be a requirement for dan-level tests, but we don't enforce it. Times are tough.




In your opinion, how does JKA Shotokan compare to WTSDA Tang Soo Do? Any similarities? Any differences?


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## DMcHenry (May 16, 2011)

I'm not with WTSDA, but did attend one of their regional Dan testings and events this weekend.  From what I could tell, they do track (points) participation in this (Texas) region.  They had a Dan testing, tournament, and seminar besides a dinner celebration for the regional director's 40 years in MA.  It was all very nice and well done, seemed to be well worth while for the participants (and I had fun too).

Mac


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## OldKarateGuy (May 21, 2011)

@puunui -

JKA vs WTSDA. First, it's just my opinion. Don't want to offend anyone. Someone else might see this completely differently. 

The forms are nearly identical. WTSDA uses the older, traditional names (which were changed in the JKA for the most part by Funakoshi). Korean art has more high kicks (no surprise) and more jumps, while JKA has more low moves and sliding moves with the student close to the ground. So, for instance, in a 180 degree turn, WTSDA might have a slower turn with high, outside-to-inside kick, while shotokan might have quick low spin and a stomp kick. 

WTSDA blocks are all hip rotation with the technique, that is, no reverse rotation. So, as an example, a high block starts from the opposite hip with the torso sideways, turns into the block and finishes with the body square. JKA, you drive the blocking shoulder forward while pulling the opposite shoulder back, finishing sideways. (assuming both are front hand high blocks). Generally, WTSDA hand technques tend to be more circular. 

JKA shotokan emphasizes (in forms) always maintaining the same height (except when the kata calls for a change), hands and feet finish at the same time, etc. TSD seems not to be concerned with either of these.

There's lots of this detail difference, but generally, a student from one would instantly recognize the other's forms.  

As for promotional tests, I think JKA emphasizes very specific and precise technique, forms with no error, not much room for deviation from association standards. WTSDA is a much more physical test, with room for (minor) errors as long as the energy and spirit is there. 

Point sparring rules: no contest here. WTSDA is liability aware, full gear, no sweeps, no grabs, no punches to head or back, etc. JKA - put on your gloves and don't attack joints or groin. 

Despite the similarities, I really think a comparison is apples and oranges. Completely different mentality and philosophy at work. 

There was a link to a '60's vintage black and white video of Hwang Kee's school in Seoul a while back. Look at that video and then look at a video of, say, Osaka Sensei doing a form. I think both are very representative of the respective styles. 

And last, I think WTSDA is more susceptible to regional variations in forms and technique, while JKA style is very well documented with very little room to wander off the farm, so to speak.


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