# The Unseen Enemy!



## Gaston (Jun 26, 2004)

One of the points never mentioned in self defense is blood borne diseases.  This factor does raise certain issues.  Sure we need to be able to physically defend ourselves, but at what cost?   If you succeed in defending yourself an attack, only to suffer with a life long condition, or possibly death do to contact with a contagious disease.  Did you actually defend your self?  A couple of cases in my area clearly demonstrate the relevance of my concerns.



Eg1 our local block busters (video store) was robbed at needle point by two small female minors. (With the threat of AIDS) all caught on you guessed it Video cameras.  The employee who relayed the story to me is by no means a little man.  Regardless of your training, obliging the attackers wishes or evasion seems to be the only logical option.  



Eg2 in a neighboring city a simple bar scuffle resulted in the winner losing a major amount of flesh to flesh eating disease, after punching his opponent in the mouth. 



This factor _might_ be a good argument for grappling as a primary self defense art as the majority of the techniques are not known for inflicting bloody wounds.  Yes I know your opponent will be initially closer, and throws can cause lesions but they are being thrown _away _from you.  Any comments that would help me sort through this one would be appreciated.  





flesh eating disease site (graphic)

http://www.jyi.org/volumes/volume5/issue8/features/hu.html


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## Ceicei (Jun 27, 2004)

Do you know statistics of this disease happening among martial artists? Considering the extent of injuries the martial artists face (especially among hard styles), I wonder how many. The article you referenced indicates that those who take steroids may increase the risk of catching this disease. I really hope that martial artists, as a whole, generally shun steroids. Nevertheless, it appears to be pretty rare since the article indicate only 600 cases were reported in USA during 1999.  Maybe this is the least of our worries within grappling?

- Ceicei


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## tmanifold (Jun 27, 2004)

My understanding is that the actually odds of communicating something like AIDS from the type of blood spilled in a fight are astromically high. Lottery type high. Besides grappling could involve blood just as easy. Not only is their biting and scratching on the gorund, you could split your head or the other guys when you go to the ground. If you smack head someone could get a bleeding lip.

In a true self defense situation I would not worry too much. The odds are better that you will die by having your head stompped in rather than by blood borne pathogens. If you do get cut get checked out. If the risk is high the docs will put you on pills that I understand are pretty effective in killing HIV is taken soon enough.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 27, 2004)

Gaston said:
			
		

> One of the points never mentioned in self defense is blood borne diseases.  This factor does raise certain issues.  Sure we need to be able to physically defend ourselves, but at what cost?   If you succeed in defending yourself an attack, only to suffer with a life long condition, or possibly death do to contact with a contagious disease.  Did you actually defend your self?  A couple of cases in my area clearly demonstrate the relevance of my concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Considering you are using Martial Arts in defense of you life and not a scuff on your Rebocks the thought of dying after five, ten, or even Twenty years kicks the snot out of dying at the monent of confrontation. And I'll lay odds that any given women would rather take the chance of dying from blood spatter than actual AIDS infection from rape, but I'm just hypothesizing :uhyeah: 
Sean


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## Gaston (Jun 27, 2004)

Good points with regards to the statistics I thank  you for well thought responses, and enjoy the chance to discuss this topic. By the way Ceicei glad to hear your class is going well.  Please keep the opinions coming.  I am not trying to start a panic, I was just wondering about other mas opinions on this topic and NF provides a dramatic example.







			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> Do you know statistics of this disease happening among martial artists? Considering the extent of injuries the martial artists face (especially among hard styles), I wonder how many. The article you referenced indicates that those who take steroids may increase the risk of catching this disease. I really hope that martial artists, as a whole, generally shun steroids. Nevertheless, it appears to be pretty rare since the article indicate only 600 cases were reported in USA during 1999. Maybe this is the least of our worries within grappling?
> 
> - Ceicei


 


NF works to fast to pose a large concern within a class setting usually.  Also, most Dojos advocate cleanliness and wound care which are both listed under prevention methods.  I was mainly referring to a self defense scenario. Dirty dark alley people with questionable hygiene ect....



[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Symptoms*

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]Very severe pain beyond what you would expect from the type of wound or injury 
Flu-like symptoms: fever, weakness, vomiting, diarrhea, dehydration 

Condition worsens without any improvement 

Less frequent urination 

Possibility of a sunburn-type rash 

Possibility of large, dark boil-like blister(s) 

Possibility of shock 
[/font] [/font]

I often wonder about the accuracy of statistics, for example how many assailants take part in surveys or assaults that are never reported?  I am just wondering mind you. I do know that the hospital staff went to a new level of precautions when treating the man from Fort St. John.  Perhaps some of them fell into the higher risk group or maybe they were not sure of the statistics.  I do hope the CDC were indicating steroids usage as a _medication._

*The CDC warns that those with a higher risk of contacting the disease are people with chronic illnesses like cancer, diabetes, and kidney diseases requiring dialysis, and those who use medications such as steroids. Breaks in the skin, such as cuts, surgical wounds, and chicken pox increase the chance of bacteria entering the body.** Keeping the skin intact is an important factor in preventing NF. *

It seems to me at least the last two sentences indicate an increased risk during any confrontation. 

_Quote: Tmanifold_
_"In a true self defense situation I would not worry too much. The odds are better that you will die by having your head stompped in rather than by blood borne pathogens. If you do get cut get checked out. If the risk is high the docs will put you on pills that I understand are pretty effective in killing HIV is taken soon enough_."
* 

Tmanifold I totally agree with you about the immediate effectiveness of head stomping and probably 1,000 other techniques for speed. I am just trying to get others opinion with regards to the disease factor. Im sure you would equally agree. Any of those 1,000 techniques would be preferred to 18hours of NF and then........
(Hey it's an accurate description).
* 
*Medical sciences ability to cure you after the fact in some cases is not promising.*
*Treatment of NF (flesh eating disease)*

No vaccine is available to prevent GAS infections. Since many types of GAS exist, one of the challenges facing scientists is the development of one vaccine to combat all the different types. Early diagnosis and early medical treatment are the keys to surviving NF. Blood or pus cultures can be used to diagnose NF, and treatment includes intravenous antibiotics (penicillin and clindamycin) and aggressive surgical debridement (removal of infected tissue). Surgical intervention can range from removing flesh, subcutaneous tissue, and fat in early stages, to major limb amputation in advanced stages. The combination of early diagnosis, antibiotics, and surgery is usually sufficient to save patients' lives. 

(NF can spread through human tissue at a rate of 3 cm per hour, Twenty-five percent of its victims die, and in severe cases, the patient is dead within 18 hours.)  They (CDC) mean EARLY medical treatment

Hey Touch'O'Death I was working on this response while you posted I'm not ignoring you JIC. As you see with NF it's hours not years.

Eg1 our local block busters (video store) was robbed at needle point by two small female minors. (With the threat of AIDS) all caught on you guessed it Video cameras. The employee who relayed the story to me is by no means a little man. Regardless of your training, obliging the attackers wishes or evasion seems to be the only logical option. 

I assume you were referring to this quote where I suggested _compliance_. This suggestion is solely limited to the eg. (They were stealing videos bo-hoo, right).  In a rape case the factors make it an entirely different situation. In the senario you are giving as it is a loose-loose situation I would have to agree with your odds.
 
Quote: Touch'O'Death
"I'll lay odds that any given women would rather take the chance of dying from blood spatter than actual AIDS infection from rape, but I'm just hypothesizing :uhyeah: 
Sean"

 
Again, I am not trying to start a panic, I was just wondering about other mas opinions on this topic and NF provides a dramatic example.



Thanks Gaston


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## Bod (Jul 15, 2004)

More likely to get staph and fungal infections doing grappling than any other martial art I can think of


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## Enson (Jul 15, 2004)

i guess the best thing to say is that even if you get these deseases (chances are highly unlikely) its better to live a few more years than to never be able to see your family again because you were scared of getting poked.


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## Shogun (Jul 15, 2004)

I'd be worried about metal. I heard lock jaw really sucks. I accidently stapled my arm the other day. it hurt. but I'll get over it.


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## Gaston (Jul 16, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i guess the best thing to say is that even if you get these deseases (chances are highly unlikely) its better to live a few more years than to never be able to see your family again because you were scared of getting poked.


I agree with you the chance of catching something is rare, just not as rare as you think. My mother-in laws friend was giving out blankets one winter night (volunteer work). Apparently he startled a homeless person & they attacked him biting him on the hand. The volunteer has since passed away from aids. So although its rare its not totally impossible. Similarly getting attacked by a gang of assailants is to most of us just as rare, but it is still an interesting scenario to discuss. In the Video store scenario, the needles can be said to represent a _potentially_ deadly weapon. In a case like this is the use of deadly force a valid defense. Kind of a "I thought the gun was loaded" case. Or given the odds and what was at stake "theft of store property", would it be worth the risk either way? Another question; if the scenario were different and the attackers had wanted more than _loot_; would the use of an equal level of hostility deadly be a legal defense? More food for thought thanks for your feedback.

Gaston


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## Gaston (Jul 16, 2004)

Bod said:
			
		

> More likely to get staph and fungal infections doing grappling than any other martial art I can think of


Good points, any thoughts on my last post? As far as experiences with contagious conditions ect?
Gaston


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## Shogun (Jul 16, 2004)

_



potentially deadly weapon

Click to expand...

Potentially. IMO, is the more dangerous kind. Just like Kinetic and Potential energy, there are Pontentially dangerous weapons, and (whatever kinetic weapons would be called). Potential makes it so one does not know the level of danger associated with the weapon. with a gun, the range, size of ammunition, accuracy of shooter, etc all are factors of potential._


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## Feisty Mouse (Jul 16, 2004)

Makes me love Kali even more - hooray for the long-range stickwork!

lol


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## PeachMonkey (Jul 16, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Makes me love Kali even more - hooray for the long-range stickwork!


 Long-range is great until a skilled farmboy grappler shoots in and you're on the ground and disarmed, Mouse


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## Feisty Mouse (Jul 17, 2004)

lol - grappling with a stick is even better (at least in sparring).  I do better with a weapon in my hand, for some reason.  Punyo, punyo!


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## Gaston (Jul 18, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> _Potentially. IMO, is the more dangerous kind. Just like Kinetic and Potential energy, there are Pontentially dangerous weapons, and (whatever kinetic weapons would be called). Potential makes it so one does not know the level of danger associated with the weapon. with a gun, the range, size of ammunition, accuracy of shooter, etc all are factors of potential._


All weapons are potentially dangerous just not all of them have the range of potential I am concerned with. My point was, _*depending on site of insertion*_ a needle poke is a rather minor injury. What it caries drugs, tainted blood or poison is impossible to determine until after the fact. A firearm when it is empty presents a psychological deterrent and an irregular bludgeon. This compared to its being loaded with blanks, live rounds ect.... So if confronted with a weapon whose "ammo" is impossible to determine do you: assume the situation is one of life and death (loaded)and respond likewise or ignore the *potentially* _*deadly*_ content of the needle and treat it like a very _small_ knife (unloaded)? 

Gaston


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## 8253 (Sep 17, 2004)

Any time there is a physical fight, there is a certain amount of risk.  It is just a fact that you will have to decide, do you want to die now or later.  The decision is totally up to the person who is in the confrontation.  Personally i would prefer taking the chance on a cure being found in the next 10 or so years.  At least that way i have a chance to survive.


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## OULobo (Sep 17, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Makes me love Kali even more - hooray for the long-range stickwork!
> 
> lol



Amen sista, as for the grappling farmboy, that's why god invented machetes and knives (clearing brush is a secondary use), if not a .45.

I think I would crack up laughing if someone threatened me with a syringe. Right before I grab the first thing handy and beat them profusely with it.


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## hardheadjarhead (Sep 17, 2004)

Okay...let's look at the ODDS of catching some of these things in a training environment.  At the bottom of this post I'll deal with effective means of avoiding transmission of diseases during martial arts training.

*NECROTIZING FASCIITIS (The "flesh eating disease").*

http://www.nnff.org/nnff_factsheet.htm

Ugly...but rare.  The CDC estimates 500-1,500 cases per year, of which 20% are lethal.  In 2001 more young people between the ages of 25 and 34 _died of heart disease _ (3,900) than this estimated high end total for all ages  dying of necrotizing fasciitis.

*HIV/AIDS.*

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/aidsstat.htm

384,906 people were infected with AIDS in the U.S. in 2002 and roughly 850,000-950,000 are infected with HIV but don't have AIDS.  This is out of a population of 275 million people.  40,000 people are infected each year...again out of 275 million people.  Virtually ALL infections are caused by sex or shared needle use.

*VIRAL HEPATITIS.*

The most common means of transmission are through sex and needles.  Health workers are at risk, as are family members in constant contact.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis/b/fact.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis/c/fact.htm

Hepatitis B: There are 1.25 million chronically infected Americans, about a third of whom caught the disease in childhood.

Hepatitis C:  3.9 million chronically infected Americans (1.8%).

*STAPH INFECTIONS.*

Common and treatable, even those resistant to anti-biotics.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/hip/Aresist/mrsafaq.htm


*HOW TO AVOID TRANSMISSION.*

1. Wash up following every training session.

2. If you have an open wound, cover it.

3. Wash and apply antiseptic to any injuries sustained during training, and apply a bandage.

4.  During training, avoid having sex with your partner unless they're wearing a condom.

5.  Do not share needles when doing intravenous drugs with your partner during training.

6.  Do not, at any time, touch your partner during training.

7.  Do not dip your weapons (sticks, training blades) into human fecal matter prior to training.  Do not insert your weapon into your partner's rectum and then continue training.  Ask your partner to avoid doing this as well.

8.  At all times during training wear a chemical/biological Hazardous Materials (HAZMAT) suit.  Incinerate the suit following each training session.

9.  If you suspect a limb has been infected, amputate it without delay.



Regards,


Steve


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## still learning (Nov 19, 2004)

Hello, Any disease you get by contact, will not be good. Some are deadly than others,some are not. We live in a world with many people traveling to, from and thru our cities, there will be things we cannot control, and we must live our lives as best as we can. Life is not fair, you may have been in many conflicts,and never got hurt. The next guy just happen to walk by and gets knock down and get cripple for life,those things happen. Anything can happen? Accept it and live life to the fullest.....Do not worry! Let the other guy worry....? Aloha


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