# In the "Nor"Shadow of a lie



## Cruentus (Jul 14, 2003)

Hello.

I just thought I would disclose that your response to Lemont Norshadow won't be able to be addressed by "Lemont" because Lemont is not a real person.

Lemont was a shared account by at least 2 or more of Dr. Jerome Barber's students. This was disclosed at the Symposium over the weekend to Myself, Rich Parsons, and Tim Hartman. Being that Rich is a moderator and bound by contract to report account violations, Rich had to report this activity. It looks that the administrators of this forum then decided to "Ban" the Norshadow account (this conclusion is based on the _banned_ under Norshadows name here). Rightfully so, given that account activity such as this is against the rules.

It is my understanding, however, that who ever wrote the posts here under lemont can sign up with his own account.

So, hopefully whoever addressed you in this thread under the lemont name will be willing to sign up with their own account under their own name. It's just always nice to know who your having a discussion with.....

wouldn't you agree?

Your Friend in the arts,
Paul Janulis
:asian:


----------



## bloodwood (Jul 14, 2003)

Paul
This is a very interesting turn of events. I would guess that DrB had a hand in this by what you're saying and that will not due his reputation any good. Norshadow was very outspoken and a Big defender of DrB (how convenient). Now that you have let the cat out of the bag, how about filling us in on the details as to how this discovery came about. There are several people on MT that have had run ins with Lamont, and I'm sure would like the low down on this deception. Does MAO know yet? How about Dan? This should be a hot potato. Time for some people to start treading water.   :sadsong: :iws:


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 15, 2003)

I'm not sure I am the best person to fill in details here. Plus, that really isn't the context of this thread.

The "Lemont" thing was apparently some kind of a joke of some sort that Dr. Barber, Tom Bolden, Richard Curren, Tim Kashino, and possibly some of Dr. B's students were in on.

The problem here is, I am not sure what the puchline was, or who the joke was on, or what the point of the whole thing was. I know what I saw and experienced, but the reality is that I am confused myself as to what the point was entirely.

So perhaps it would be best if you addressed the question to Dr. Barber himself. I would do it in a seperate thread also. I am sure that Dr. B can explain the situation much better then I could.

Thanks,
PAUL
:asian:


----------



## Red Blade (Jul 15, 2003)

Doesn't Dr. Barber have control of his students? Also, why would Tom Bolden be involved?


----------



## Emptyglass (Jul 15, 2003)

Hi Paul:

Please check your facts before making statements/assumptions such as the one below. Until I entered that room, I had no idea who Lamont Norshadow was and in fact I believe I responded to him a few times myself. I was going to dinner with Dr. Barber, Punong Guro Bolden, Guro Kashino and the other folks you mentioned so I did need to find out where we were going and where my ride to dinner was.

In all truth, I'm not sure I understand anyone's interest in this for 2 reasons. First, it seems as though the moderators/administrators handled the situation very rapidly and to their satisfaction.

Secondly, if you have issue with statements that were made by whoever was posting under the screenname Lamont Norshadow, then argue your points based upon the facts. It really shouldn't matter who the person is.

In truth, anyone can remain anonymous on an internet forum such as this if they wish by a variety of methods. It is easy. So the fact that the Norshadow1 screename turned out to be multiple people posting on one account is truly a non-issue.

How do I know that's you typing Paul? How do you know this is me? How do I know someone isn't calling you on the phone and telling you what to say here? How do you know someone isn't asking someone to post pre-written responses via e-mail? It's pointless and it seems that if that is the heart of what's bothering anyone, they are not going to be satisfied regardless of explanations.

More likely it seems to me that the Norshadow screenname made some postings which upset some people because they were closer to the mark or more honest than some people would prefer and that is what is at the heart of some folks' concern about this.

Thanks,

Richard Curren






> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I'm not sure I am the best person to fill in details here. Plus, that really isn't the context of this thread.
> 
> The "Lemont" thing was apparently some kind of a joke of some sort that Dr. Barber, Tom Bolden, Richard Curren, Tim Kashino, and possibly some of Dr. B's students were in on.
> ...


----------



## Emptyglass (Jul 15, 2003)

Hi Red Blade:

Actually my answer to your question is "No, Dr. Barber doesn't control his students." Why? He doesn't have to. Personally, I always do my best to ensure that I do everything I can to honor and respect Dr. Barber as a teacher, friend and mentor and the art that he's been kind enough to entrust me with the responsibility of learning.

Each of us is an individual who grows in an individual direction. For myself, I don't need Dr. Barber to control my actions as he's taught me properly on how to conduct myself.

As for Punong Guro Bolden, I don't know if he was "involved" or just going to dinner like myself. Why don't you ask him yourself? I believe you can contact him through the American Modern Arnis Associates web site here: 
http://www.americanarnis.com

Thanks,

Richard Curren

PS: To bring up a point from my earlier post, how does anyone know who you are Red Blade, since you continue to remain anonymous to the best of my knowledge? Why couldn't you be multiple people posting under one screen name? Perhaps we should investigate? 

RSC



> _Originally posted by Red Blade _
> *Doesn't Dr. Barber have control of his students? Also, why would Tom Bolden be involved?
> *


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 15, 2003)

Admin Note: 

Thread spun off from others.  Please confine the "NorShadow" discussion here.

The fact that Norshadow wasn't who he claimed has been very evident to us for months due to various interesting coincidences.  As it stands right now, we are currently examining the evidence and will be issuing a full disclosure shortly.

In the mean time, the "Norshadow" account has been banned to prevent the liar from accessing MartialTalk again.

Liar?  Yes.  As to the ID (or claimed ID) we have than on file for many members, but not all. Those found to be falsifying it will be dealt with accordingly.

:asian:


----------



## Emptyglass (Jul 15, 2003)

Hi Mr. Hubbard:

Note: I've taken an interest in this thread since my name became connected with it based on an incorrect assumption by another member. Also there was some curiousity about why I don't think this "revelation" matters. But now, I'm here so I might as well do like everyone else and say what I want to. 

You said:

"Just want to keep things contained while the villians sweat out their exposure"

Villains? As an internet professional who managed the set up and moderates a forum of about 60,000 members, I can say from some experience, I'm not sure villain is the proper word.

This sort of thing happens all of the time on forums and in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with it. On the internet, information is the key, not identity. I'm sure you must realize this as the Admin on this site. Was the information Norshadow1 posted correct? I truly can't see the problem here as there is absolutely no way on earth for any internet Forum Administrator to do anything about this situation.

I say again, how do you know this is Richard Curren speaking and not some other person? All you have to go by is an IP address and the bio information that has been given to you by the member. Even the response e-mail can be set up by one person for another. I could be letting someone use my computer to type their responses. The same thing could hold true for Red Blade, Bloodwood, Bob Hubbard, Paul Janulis or anyone else. Therefore if we've established that there is no real way to determine identity on the internet, then the only thing you have to go by is the information and its veracity.

As much as I enjoy using them, internet forums are a joke when it comes to establishing identity. If they were'nt we wouldn't have the problems with internet predators we have today. It is the nature of the beast of a totally free exchange of information.

As for Norshadow1, I agreed with many of the things that screenname posted and disagreed with some. Do I feel cheated or slighted because I now discover that person was multiple people. No, I didn't know who it was in the first place so what difference does it make? I think that if you don't separate internet persona from person, you aren't quite right in the head.

I say good for any of the people online and on this Forum who are doing this (I'm positive there are others), anonymity is an advantage of the internet and I suspect that if people didn't feel that it was necessary to post anonymously due to the prejudice that connecting a person with an internet persona can garner, they wouldn't go to the efforts to do it.

It seems to me there is another issue here that someone (some people?) has that they are not willing to make public. Otherwise I can't see what the big deal is.

These are my opinions so if you disagree, take them up with me.

Thanks,

Richard Curren (or is it? )


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 15, 2003)

Nah...can't disagree with most of the points you made.  I can verify certain things with the information I have at hand.  Supenas of ISPs can usually get more information, but that steps usually not taken due to the fact that to lie is not illegal. (If it was, we'd have no 'leaders')

Short of requiring a creditcard to verify ID (like the adult sites do) theres not much we can do given out operating budgets.

I verify things a certain way.  Some are technical.  Some are personal.  I havent met you, but Tim, Rich, and Paul have. I have met them, they verify you do 'exist' so thats good enough for me.

The problem with "Norshadow" is that his existance as a person was vouched for by Dr. Barber.  The banter that occured at times was that of an old friend with some closeness. So, based on that, Dr.B. was aware of the duplicity.

The question of "Was Jerome Barber also Lamont Norshadow?" however is not one easily answered.  Who were the "Norshadows" will never be known fully.  The fact that there was more than 1 person involved however is very much a fact.


Richard,
 I can't say for certainty that you didn't know about things.  (Man do I ever wish I was a Sith..I could just read minds from miles away...heh)   Signs that are apparent in a face to face are invisible on the internet.
 I can however very strongly state that you were not him.  

Peace.

:asian:


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 15, 2003)

I'm going to address a few points...

1. I didn't start this thread, just to let you know. In the thread "The basic problem of Modern Arnis and the future" was where this started. Dan McConnell (MAO) had addressed "Lemont" on Friday, when I was on my way up to Buffalo. I was simply letting him know that Norshadow was not a real person, and what had occured. Who ever wrote what MAO had addressed under the "Lemont" alias could come on line with there own account to continue the conversation. Then Bloodwood asked for details, and I explained what happened, who seemed to be "in" on it, and that Dr. Barber is really the one who should explain everything.

I understand that Bob moved this to a seperate thread; and that this is the right thing to do. I just thought I would tell you this so you don't think that I started a thread on this subject. I merely was responding to someone else.

2. I don't need to "check my facts" on what happend. I was there. All I know is Tim Hartman, Rich Parsons, and I walk into a private room with Dr. B and Tom Bolden. You, Tim Kashino, and one other student, the "Largo-Mano" guy (Kevin maybe?) were there already. The two Serrada Eskrima guys also followed us to the room, but it was clear that they had no idea what was going on, so they had nothing to do with this "Lemont" business. Then Dr. Barber disclosed that "Lemont" was actually 2 or more of his students sharing an account. Then, there was that largo Mano Demo. Then we all left.

All I know is what I saw; I don't know to what level people were involved, all I know is that it appears that the people I previously mentioned were "in" on it. Maybe they weren't. Really, Dr. Barber is the one who should explain all this. This was his deal.

I just disclosed who appeared to be involved, and I asked Bloodwood to address Dr. Barber for some answers. I thought this was the fair thing to do, given the circumstance.

Regarding you....O.K. you explained your position. That you weren't actually involved. This is fair, so now lets let those who were explain what the whole point was, and answer questions accordingly.

3. Regarding "Identity": Yes it is true, people can lie about there identity on the net. This is ashame. All we can do is watch out the best we can, and hope that people will be honest enough, and that people will have the balls to not lie about their identities.

Also, there is a big difference between taking a surname and saying, "I am choosing to state my opinions, but not to disclose who I am at this time," and taking a surname and letting multiple people collaborate together, all acting like the same person, to manipulate other people. One is honest, the other is not. This is a very simple distinction. 

I can respect one not wanting an identity known, even though I do not operate this way, and I post my identity freely. It's the lying part that I don't like.

4. Just for the record, I am not really "upset" about anything that was said, I am just having a difficult time understanding the point, or motive behind all of the nonsense. I guess it was a joke, or something, but on who? Regarding what? Where's the big punchline? I have no idea, and I am very confused. So, when questioned, I really didn't have an answer. 

So, Richard, I really don't have much to say, and I am not trying to bad-mouth anyone, I am just waiting to learn what the point of all this was. I'm sure others are awaiting an answer as well......


----------



## DoctorB (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Red Blade _
> *Doesn't Dr. Barber have control of his students? Also, why would Tom Bolden be involved?
> *



Do you have "control" over your staudents?

Tom Bolden was not involved, he merely witnessed an "audition"
as did Rich Parsons.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## DoctorB (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I'm not sure I am the best person to fill in details here. Plus, that really isn't the context of this thread.
> 
> The "Lemont" thing was apparently some kind of a joke of some sort that Dr. Barber, Tom Bolden, Richard Curren, Tim Kashino, and possibly some of Dr. B's students were in on.
> ...



Thanks for the directing the question to me, but have you asked Mr. Hartman, why he had you take the floor when the matter of the audition was between himself and Lamont (Keith) and it involved some private discussions that I was not privy to until very late in the exchange process.

You folks do not really want the full explaination so don't ask for it. 

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *Thanks for the directing the question to me, but have you asked Mr. Hartman, why he had you take the floor when the matter of the audition was between himself and Lamont (Keith) and it involved some private discussions that I was not privy to until very late in the exchange process.
> 
> You folks do not really want the full explaination so don't ask for it.
> ...



To answer your question regarding Tim not going to the floor for the demonstration: 

Since Remy's passing, Tim is my primary instructor for Modern Arnis. He is also a high ranking Datu. No offense here, but given his status, I felt that it was almost disrespectful to ask him to get on the floor with someone who is very much his junior to uke for a demonstration. How would you have felt if I brought in one of my students to demonstrate something, and I asked Mr. Bolden to be a uke in a demonstration? See what I mean....it doesn't exactly fit.

Since I claim no status, it was only appropriate for me to get on the floor.

I said some jokes, and I tried to keep it light, but the reality is it was my duty to go on the floor in his place. I didn't need to question Tim on it; I was fullfilling my duty.

Respectfully,
Paul Janulis


----------



## DoctorB (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> *Paul
> This is a very interesting turn of events. I would guess that DrB had a hand in this by what you're saying and that will not due his reputation any good. Norshadow was very outspoken and a Big defender of DrB (how convenient). Now that you have let the cat out of the bag, how about filling us in on the details as to how this discovery came about. There are several people on MT that have had run ins with Lamont, and I'm sure would like the low down on this deception. Does MAO know yet? How about Dan? This should be a hot potato. Time for some people to start treading water.   :sadsong: :iws: *



Hey Blood-boy, 

In this case your guess would be wrong!  I got involved late in the midst of a private exchange.  As for my reputation, I'll put it up against yours at any point in time, as soon as I know your real name.  

There was never any attempt to make a secret of Norshadow's association with me nor did I deny knowing him.  So he used a screen name, so what, don't you?

There was no discovery, no uncovering of secret information... 
Lamont (Keith) choose to reveal his true identity.  He also gave  his friend and fellow training partner the use of the ID because Tim Kashino's log-ons were always dis-continued because they had a .mil extenstion.  You will have to discuss that with Bob Hubbard and Rich Parsons as to why .mil is not allowed on the MTC.

As for treading water...  I doubt it.  My students are free to do what they feel is appropriate so long as they do not slander or injure someone's character.  As Norshadow, Keith, never slandered anyone!  The issue was between Mr. Hartman and Keith.  It involved a guessing situation in which Mr. Hartman among others was wrong in what they suspected.  Too bad, but it happens and if Hartman had asked me - directly - I would have told him that his speculation was incorrect.  In addition he would have been incorrect for quite a long time more if Keith had decided to retain the Norshadow identity. 

The situation was kept away from the Symposium participants and it should have been kept waway from the forum membership. It was because the "audition" did not go well for the Hartman side and the "secret" was revealed, not discovered, that the thread was promolgated.  As for an explaination... maybe, if Keith decides to give it... as for me, I witnessed the "audition" and it confirmed all of my previous comments and beliefs.  Tim Hartman, not Paul Janulis, should have been on the floor with Norshadow (Keith).  Paul was pushed out on the floor and was taken totally by surprise when he was told by Mr. Hartman to work with Keith.  That's all I have to say on the matter. 

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *There was no discovery, no uncovering of secret information...
> Lamont (Keith) choose to reveal his true identity and he had given his friend and ffellow training partner the use of the ID because Tim Kashino's log-ons were always dis-continued because they had a .mil extenstion.  You will have to discuss that with Bob Hubbard and Rich Parsons as to why .mil is not allowed on the MTC.*



There are a few bits here I want to address:

1- .mil is not blocked by this site, the server, or our datacenter.  We do infact have members connecting from DoD sites all over the world, Japan and Germany being 2 major locations.

2- Tims logons being disconected.  To the best of my knowledge, this is the first I'm hearing of a problem.  Certainly, there is no reference to the name "Tim Kashino" in my email archives (which go back to 1994).  So if he had problems, I don't remember being told about them, and there is no email indicating such.

3. Sharing of accounts is not encouraged, and if you choose to do so, you are responsible for what is posted under your account.  We have banned people in the past for this.


> Account Policy:
> 1- One account per member
> 2- Keep your account information private (password).
> 3- Purposefully violating the security of the forum or allowing someone else to use your account may result in suspension or ban.



4. False Identity. - While it is not 100% possible to verify an ID, the simple fact is that it is our requirement that -we- (the MT staff) at least have an ID on file,   According to "Norshadow"s account his name is "Lamont NorShadow".  So that is by itself a violation of this forums rules and policies.

I will avoid the obvious comments about the disrespect shown to this forum and myself by those involved.

There is more on the technical side, however we are still examining information as we try to determine just how many "NorShadows" there were.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *. . .
> There was no discovery, no uncovering of secret information...
> Lamont (Keith) choose to reveal his true identity.  He also gave  his friend and fellow training partner the use of the ID because Tim Kashino's log-ons were always dis-continued because they had a .mil extenstion.  You will have to discuss that with Bob Hubbard and Rich Parsons as to why .mil is not allowed on the MTC.
> ...




Jerome,

Hmmmm, I think there was a misunderstanding. I thought I said there might be an issue with the .mil IP's,  was not sure. Later when Tim Kashino explained in person to me, that he could also not log in from the cyber cafe, outside the base. I then told him to contact myslef with the details of the errors or better yet one of the Admins.

I did not mean to cloud the issue.


Richard Curren,

I believe you were not involved, until the end. I respect your adamant denile in person and here. You are someone who wishes to contribute to the Martial Arts' and Martial Talk Communities'.

:asian:


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 15, 2003)

Once again, regarding Datu Tim Hartman not going on the floor, read my post above. If Tim hadn't of handed me the stick, I would have asked for the stick and would have gone in his place regardless.

Tim is my instructor. If Tim is asked to Uke, or anything of the sort, I will go in his place if I am present. If Tim is "challanged" even, I will go in his place if I am present. The only thing that would stop me is a direct order from Tim not to. This would be the same if Remy Presas was alive. It is also the same for any of my other instructors. This is the dedication I have to those who are considered my teachers.

As to me posting this in a public forum, the "Lemont issue" involved a public forum. I was only answering MAO who was replying to Lemont. Keith is free of course to set up his own account and reply. 

I wasn't really sure, Dr. B, what you wanted revealed in regards to the demonstration. I wasn't going to say more then what I had when I replied to Dan McConnell originally, and I was going to let you or Keith (if he decides to open an account) reply accordingly. Then Mr. Curren pushed me with his response to say more then I planned. What did you expect me to do? I thought this was your "practical joke" anyways? Perhaps it was Keith's? I don't really know anymore, so that is why I deferred the question to you or Kieth to explain.

Hopefully this clarifies that.

Also, one more thing.....  



> It was because the "audition" did not go well for the Hartman side and the "secret" was revealed, not discovered.



I am not so sure what you mean here. How exactly did the "audition" not go well? I don't understand? Please explain?

Paul

P.S. I am loggin off now...I'll be able to address replies tomorrow!:asian:


----------



## DoctorB (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *To answer your question regarding Tim not going to the floor for the demonstration:
> 
> Since Remy's passing, Tim is my primary instructor for Modern Arnis. He is also a high ranking Datu. No offense here, but given his status, I felt that it was almost disrespectful to ask him to get on the floor with someone who is very much his junior to uke for a demonstration. How would you have felt if I brought in one of my students to demonstrate something, and I asked Mr. Bolden to be a uke in a demonstration? See what I mean....it doesn't exactly fit.
> ...



Nice explaination, Paul, but I do not buy it for one reason, the matter was between Mr. Hartman and Norshadow (Keith) and no one else.  They created the situation and we were there to witness an "audition".  As for what I knew and when that is not for discussion, public or private.   As for me discussiong or exchanging comments on the forum with Norshadow, sure I did and why wouldn't I?  Did I agree with him 100%, NO!  Did I get pissed at a couple of his comments, YES!  But in the end the matter comes back to this point, it was between Mr. Hartman and Mr. Keith... Hartman should have been on the floor, not you!  If his skill level were so far above Keith's then he could have taught Keith a lesson...  Keith and Hartman put this mess together and only Keith stepped up to the plate to follow through... No other discussion is going to change that fact, it is now history.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *. . .
> 
> Keith and Hartman put this mess together and only Keith stepped up to the plate to follow through... No other discussion is going to change that fact, it is now history.
> ...




Jerome,

Excuse me, was this audition in essence a challenge? If it was then why call it a Demonstration or an Audition. Why did you not say so?

Now, I am really confused


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 15, 2003)

Just outta curiosity....where was this 'base'?  Norshadows been quite the world traveler it seems....


----------



## DoctorB (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Jerome,
> 
> Hmmmm, I think there was a misunderstanding. I thought I said there might be an issue with the .mil IP's,  was not sure. Later when Tim Kashino explained in person to me, that he could also not log in from the cyber cafe, outside the base. I then told him to contact myslef with the details of the errors or better yet one of the Admins.
> ...



Hello Rich,

I understand what you said in person and above.  There is no confusion or problem from my perspective, I just tried to report the fact of the problem with the .mil as best I could.  There are other converstaions that I am unaware of and can not speak to from first hand knowledge so I did not mention them in my post.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 15, 2003)

The following is the correspondence that was initiated by Lamont with me.


E-mail 1



> _Lamont Wrote _*
> Datu Hartman,
> 
> Based on a couple of private e-mails that I have recently received and your earlier concerns that I might be a MT.com member with a duplicate membership, I am proposing the following idea.  Put DocB and myself on your WMAA Philadelphia Camp Roster in October.  We would like to have a full hour for presentation, the same as your other instructors. DocB will teach his hand tools program (palm stick, kubotan and Gunting Knife).  I will teach Modern Arnis Largo Mano Single Stick.  And before you ask, yes, I did train with Professor Presas at several camps and seminars.
> ...



E-mail 2



> _Hartman Wrote _*
> Lamont-
> 
> I forwarded the e-mail to the camp hosts and discussed it with them on the phone last night. The response was that it was your responsibility to prove who you are and they wasn't going to pay you to prove it. I agree with them on this point. Rich Parsons (an MT.com Moderator) and myself (an MT.com Advisor) will be attending the Symposium. Introduce yourself to us and then we can very your existence. Since this is an MT matter it has NO barring on WMAA function. This is YOUR problem and YOU need to solve it.
> ...



E-mail 3



> _Lamont Wrote _*
> Datu Hartman,
> 
> You're on!  I will expect to see both you and Rich Parsons at the Symposium.  THEN let's do the Philadelphia Camp.  I knopw that I have some positive things to offer and teach.  Very few Modern Arnis people are doing any type of largo mano style and I am ready and able to show it.  It is something that Remy did spend a bit of time working with me on because I showed an interest in it.
> ...



E-mail 4


> _Hartman Wrote _*
> Lamont-
> 
> there is really no need to go all the way to Philadelphia to prove that you are a real person. You have committed to attending the Symposium in July. I'm one of the presenters there, I would be more than happy to verify you existence to MT.com after meeting you.
> ...



E-mail 5


> _Lamont Wrote _*
> Datu Hartman,
> 
> Let's do more than merely verify my existence for an internet forum. Let's have a real martial arts alliance and work together.
> ...



E-mail 6



> _Hartman Wrote _*
> Lamont-
> 
> As of March 15, 2003 GM Anding De Leon was added to the Philly camp. This was to complete the teaching roster. Since then there have been several inquiries to teach at this event which had to be turned down. There is no room for other instructor and if there was you would not be considered without any of our members having seen you perform. If you would like to teach at an event I would suggest talking to Dr. Barber. He might be able to put you in the symposium. Looking forward to meeting you there.
> ...



E-mail 7



> _Lamont Wrote _*
> Thanks for the reply.  Why you are pushing this off to DocB is ridiculous. The problem is between you and I with regard to me existance as a seperate living person or a duplicate e-mail account.  You have already talked with DocB about me in the past.  I will be happy to "audition" for you and Rich Parsons at the Symposium and then go to your Michigan Camp to teach, or is that venue already filled as well?  Are you running an Alliance or a closed shop?  Is the organization open to new ideas and information?  As I said before, most Modern Arnis people are not familiar with the largo mano style as Professor Presas did not often teach it.  I asked him about it because of what I saw in his Modern Arnis book from the Philippines.  He pulled me aside and taught me.  Do you know the Modern Arnis largo mano style of striking and footwork?  If I have read and understand your web site dedication correctly, you and your organization members should be interested in this information.
> 
> See you at the symposium - do I get the audition?
> ...



E-mail 8



> _Hartman Wrote _*
> See you at the Symposium.
> 
> Tim Hartman*



E-mail 9



> _Lamont Wrote _*
> OK!  Now that we have that settled, are you going to answer my other questions?  As the leader of the WMAA, I would like to have your response to my questions.  Be straight forward, be honest.
> 
> Lamont *



E-mail 10



> _Hartman Wrote _*
> Like I said. I'll talk to you at the camp.
> 
> Tim Hartman*


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 15, 2003)

That being said, whats the significance of this audition? I never asked for one or wanted to give one.


----------



## jaybacca72 (Jul 15, 2003)

as being an outsider looking in and reading i am truly digusted with this whole audition thing,i did think that my modern arnis peers were above these school yard actions but i guess i was mistaken. if you wanted to pick a fight with hartman then say so,this audition talk is bs and if i was there the following day i would taken hartmans place as well if i had known wether he wanted it or not. whoever norshadow is or was your actions have been in poor taste and iam ashamed to be associated with you by modern arnis name only. 
much later
jay :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:


----------



## bloodwood (Jul 15, 2003)

DrB
My reputation is not on the line, but yours is.
So far all you've done is offer a bunch of long winded crap that diverts attention away from the fact that you and your students have some kind of ax to grind with Tim Hartman and his organization. Those emails from norshadow to Tim Hartman clearly show some intent to try and goat Tim Hartman or somebody from his organization into saying something he shouldn't that you could use against him and his people just as you staged this so called audition where all parties weren't aware of what was going on and what you REAL motives were. So if you want to go on the offensive, go right ahead. It won't work.

As for Paul stepping in for his instructor, I would buy the man a beer. Well done.

bloodwood


----------



## Roland (Jul 15, 2003)

This sharing of accounts sounds a lot like what Doug was doing, eccept he was honest about what he did.
(and maybe a little less selective of who he allowed access to his account, but by too much by the sounds of it.)

This whole 'audition' thing sounds pretty funny, I think we should all just laugh it off.
I mean, who invites themselves to someone else's camp?
It would have been nice to see a real challenge though, that would have been cool.
Rules - First blood, or know out, or submission....?
How do you think we would have called it?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 15, 2003)

The comparison with Doug is valid.  The difference IMHO is that he was upfront in it.  His 'crime' was not thinking through the fallout of his actions. (Security and potential legal issues).  His intent however was not malicious or for his own gain.  Just fun. 

In this case, it is multiple people posting under 1 psudeoname.  The funny part is the posts where 'Norshadow' takes exception to others using a handle, yet is now revield to be a fraud.  Many of those posts were 'bannerwaving' for Dr. Barbers event,  so it could be suggested that they were for his own political or financial gain.  It can also be thought that it was to further some political agenda. 

This 'challenge' thing sounds like a poor mans rehash of the whole 'MoroMoro' crap, only worded a bit more politely. 

Personally, in my opinion its this kind of gameplaying that gives the arts a bad name.  Those involved in this duplicity should be ashamed of themselves for the insult they gave to the late GM's memory. 

Now, someone will say "Bob, you don't know the full story" and they will be right.  Y'all can hash out the personal, political and other BS.  I'm focusing on the technical side of things. Trust me, thats even more interesting that the 'stick envy' I see going on here.

:soapbox:


----------



## Emptyglass (Jul 15, 2003)

Rich:

While I appreciate your nice comments. Just to clarify my position here, I'm not denying or confirming anything nor have I. I just wasn't involved in the identity of Norshadow1. I didn't know where everyone had gone and came looking. I wasn't asked to leave and stayed to watch and was quite interested by what I saw and heard.

I'm just not sure why this is so important to some people. The admins handled the issue and now it is over. Big deal. I still agree with what I saw of Norshadow's posts and as far as Dr. Barber, Tim Kashino, Keith and the rest are concerned. I'm in their corner. 

Thanks,

Richard Curren




> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Jerome,
> 
> Hmmmm, I think there was a misunderstanding. I thought I said there might be an issue with the .mil IP's,  was not sure. Later when Tim Kashino explained in person to me, that he could also not log in from the cyber cafe, outside the base. I then told him to contact myslef with the details of the errors or better yet one of the Admins.
> ...


----------



## arnisador (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> *This sort of thing happens all of the time on forums and in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with it. *



It does indeed happen all the time on many fora. On this board it's disallowed. You're right that we're quite limited in our ability to prevent and detect it. But it is against our rules and we do something when we find out about it. This place is meant to be the opposite of rec.martial-arts.

You may think there's nothing wrong with it in general and in fact I'd agree with you--but do you not think that we have the right to forbid it even if it can be hard to enforce? (Remember, many times it _is_ easy to catch if the person doesn't know about the fact that their IP address is logged and what that means.) We think we should be able to set our own rules for our own board.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## arnisador (Jul 16, 2003)

Someone claiming to be Lamont NorShadow, a presence on MartialTalk and the Eskrima Digest, e-mailed Tim Hartman witha  very forward suggestion he be put on the instructor's list for a WMAA camp. This is poor etiquette; Lamont NorShadow then insisted on an audition. Mr. Hartman did not grant this request but merely said they could speak at the Symposium. Apparently at the Symposium he insisted on giving the audition (or perhaps Dr. Barber insisted for him--I was not there and am unsure). It seems that if he is to audtition for Mr. Hartman, Mr. Hartman should watch the audition--I would have expected Lamont NorShadow to bring a student to help him demonstrate. If indeed he attempted to insist that Mr. Hartman partner him then it would be more of his rude attempt to tell Mr. Hartman what to do (as per the e-mail cited above, where he wrote "_Put DocB and myself on your WMAA Philadelphia Camp Roster in October. We would like to have a full hour for presentation, the same as your other instructors._"). I doubt that it would look good if I went up to Datu Worden and insisted he partner me for an audition so I could be put on his Water and Steel Camp; it doesn't sound any better here.

What I am hearing does not reflect poorly on Mr. Hartman. As for the audition not going as Mr. Hartman might have liked, I don't get this--wasn't it only Lamont NorShadow who was auditioning? How can an audition reflect porrly on its audience?

Finally, I am unclear--is "Keith" Lamont NorShadow's actual first name or his surname?


----------



## bloodwood (Jul 16, 2003)

> I'm just not sure why this is so important to some people. The admins handled the issue and now it is over. Big deal. I still agree with what I saw of Norshadow's posts and as far as Dr. Barber, Tim Kashino, Keith and the rest are concerned. I'm in their corner.



OVER? it's just beginning. DrBarber's directing of this deal is disgusting. It is admirable that you are staying in his corner but remember that corner is on a sinking ship. When you act without honor you lose all credibility. I would find it hard to trust anything that DrB has to say from this point on.

bloodwood


----------



## Cthulhu (Jul 16, 2003)

Personally, I will not show any support or interest for Barber or any of his future events.  Those who perpetuated the lie are also suspect.  This is my personal view and does not reflect the opinions of MartialTalk or its staff.

Regarding this 'audition', those who insisted on this 'audition' were extremely rude and out of line.  It would be like a garage band showing up at a Metallica concert demanding to be heard so they could be placed on the bill.  Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  Hartman had every right to tell these people to guzzle arsenic.  They should consider themselves grateful that he gave them any time at all.

Cthulhu
getting more disillusioned with Modern Arnis because of crap like this.  Thanks, Barber.


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 16, 2003)

I just want to quickly address this:



> Nice explaination, Paul, but I do not buy it for one reason, the matter was between Mr. Hartman and Norshadow (Keith) and no one else.



It really wasn't just between those two, though. This is why you should "buy it." As the host of the Michigan camp, I was let in on this conversation. Also, the hosts of the DE camp were he first "volunteered" were let in on it as well.

You see, people really thought this Norshadow guy wanted to get a teaching spot at a WMAA camp. This made it much more then a conversation between Tim and Kieth. This made it the business of all camp hosts, potential camp attendees, the WMAA board, as well as the entire WMAA.

Now Tim posted the entire conversation on this board, so people can see the exchenge. I guess it's everybodys business now.

So why would Tim go out on the floor if Keith was demonstrating so he could get a teaching spot? Wouldn't Tim want to see this demo from a 3rd person perspective so he can make his judgement? If anything, I would think that Kieth would have brought a training partner for the demonstration, or that he would have just used one of your other students. I know when Tim, or anyone, does a Demo, they usually use a familiar student to aid them. This only makes sense.

Unless of course your implying that this was supposed to be more then just a demo.

What I am trying to get to the bottom of here is how your trying to position this "audition." If this was supposed to be something more then just a Demo, then lets not speak in axioms, let's just spit it out.

I e-mailed you privately regarding the issue, and I'll patiently wait for an answer.

I hope we can get to the bottom of this, and clear up this issue in a friendly manner.

Respectfully,
Paul Janulis


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 16, 2003)

Jerome and Tim,

I just got back from Buffalo after getting up (according to my left coast body time) at 2:00 AM to make a plane flight.

Guys, this is ridiculous.  I don't care if the contimuing enmity goes on between you two until hell freezes over but this"Lamont Norshadow audition" and the degree of importance of "Lamont's secret identity" and it's alleged ramifications is *kids on the playground bull$h!t!*

*This demeans all of us!*

Sorry, gents.  We should be above this.  Both of you are my friends so I speak frankly.  This kind of crap puts us in the muck and personally, Modern Arnis - everybody's Modern Arnis whether it's WMAA, WMAC, IMAF, MARPPIO, DAV, or any of the black sheep renegades - we don't need this.  RP would've $h!t over this one.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## arnisador (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *RP would've $h!t over this one.*



Someone using a false name and identity so he could set up a demonstration of the "secret techniques" that the Professor taught only him, and insisting that a datu stand for some sort of unspecified challenge? Yes, seeing how the Professor treated [_name omitted_--"the Duck" if you were there (MSU 1987 or 1988)] in public for what I would consider lesser offenses, I wonder how he'd take it if he knew that the host of a Modern Arnis event had orchestrated such an affair. This deceit hardly seems in keeping with an event meant to be one that would bring people together in his memory after his passing.

I just can't see what Dr. Barber and "Keith" hoped to gain by using the Symposium to play a trick on one of the guest instructors, and by the pushy and rude behaviour of "Lamont NorShadow" in general. Bashing Mr. Hartman and/or *PAUL* after the fact for not following whatever secret rules were in effect isn't winning any points with me either.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *Jerome and Tim,
> 
> Guys, this is ridiculous.  I don't care if the contimuing enmity goes on between you two until hell freezes over but this"Lamont Norshadow audition" and the degree of importance of "Lamont's secret identity" and it's alleged ramifications is kids on the playground bull$h!t!*


* 

Dan-

Remember this is Camp Barber starting sh$t and wasting everyone's time! I was keeping to myself until THEY went out of their way to screw with me. I understand not wanting to take sides. If that is what you're going to do then stay out of the way. 

Remember they are also messing with the WMAA. An org that you are a member of!*


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *Dan-
> I understand not wanting to take sides. If that is what you're going to do then stay out of the way.
> 
> Remember they are also messing with the WMAA. An org that you are a member of! *



Tim,

Thus far I am seeing this as a Jerome/Tim thing.  Clarify for me where it's directly an attack on WMAA.  

Yours,
Dan


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *Tim,
> 
> Thus far I am seeing this as a Jerome/Tim thing.  Clarify for me where it's directly an attack on WMAA.
> ...



Tim,

I talked to Dan briefly over the phone, and I clarified this a bit. I think that we are now all on the same page.

I am waiting for Dr. B's response to my p.m. so I can clarify things for myself before I post much more. 

tick-tock-tick-tock...............(Jeprody theme song)

still waiting..........


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *Dan-
> 
> Remember this is Camp Barber starting sh$t and wasting everyone's time! I was keeping to myself until THEY went out of their way to screw with me. I understand not wanting to take sides. If that is what you're going to do then stay out of the way.
> ...



Let me clarify.  This is one episode stemming from a long history.  I don't thnk this is an isolated anti-WMAA incident.  This is more of a continuation of the Tim/Jerome thing I heard about when I got together with Tim over a year ago and from my understanding, it goes a ways back.

Yours,
Dan anderson


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 16, 2003)

This may stem from a long history.....

but unfortunatily WMAA camp hosts, The Board, and WMAA members, AND Mr. Barbers students, AND Tom Bolden (to what level he was actually involved, I do not know) AND 2 unsuspecting Californians who had nothing to do with the "feud". all got dragged into it to a level.

The WMAA got dragged into it on a business level when this character was asking to teach at one of our events. All sorts of false implications were made in the P.M.'s (which Tim posted so we as evidence) that the "WMAA is a closed org.", and things of that sort. The WMAA might also being implimented on a technical level, as if to say that "we are not ready to 'handle' Largo Mano techniques"........as if WMAA interpretation of Modern Arnis is somehow incomplete.

So I agree with what your saying Dan, in that this stems from a long history. However, many people at this stage in the game got dragged into this feud, unfortunatily.

As you might already know, I have an easy solution as soon as I get my pm answered by Dr. B that will put all of this to rest.

   :asian:


----------



## DoctorB (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Personally, I will not show any support or interest for Barber or any of his future events.  Those who perpetuated the lie are also suspect.  This is my personal view and does not reflect the opinions of MartialTalk or its staff.
> 
> Regarding this 'audition', those who insisted on this 'audition' were extremely rude and out of line.  It would be like a garage band showing up at a Metallica concert demanding to be heard so they could be placed on the bill.  Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  Hartman had every right to tell these people to guzzle arsenic.  They should consider themselves grateful that he gave them any time at all.
> ...



You are quite welcome!  Since I do not ever recall you attending anything that I ever hosted before the Symposium, I guess I will not miss you at any future events.

I was never part of the "audition" other than being an observer and since it was Hartman who suggested both the "audition" and the Symposium as the site, perhaps you need to take that matter up with him.  I was placed in the middle of a dispute and I allowed it to play out.  Others have made it into the big deal that it has become.  It was not my job to "save" either person, they are both grown men.  Hartman thought he knew something about the true identity of Norshadow, but he was wrong!  Now you, even further away from the main players and outside of the loop in terms of some private messages, want to make judgements based on what has been posted thus far.  Good luck!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 16, 2003)

> I was never part of the "audition" other than being an observer and since it was Hartman who suggested both the "audition" and the Symposium as the site



This is incorrect. Go back to the Private Message exchange between Tim and Lemont that Tim posted here. You will never read it where Tim suggests an "audition," as you put it. He just says that he'd like to meet Lemont at the symposium.

And again, you qoute audition. Are you gonna answer my question in the PM or what?


----------



## DoctorB (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Tim,
> 
> I talked to Dan briefly over the phone, and I clarified this a bit. I think that we are now all on the same page.
> ...



E-mail me directly.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *E-mail me directly.
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D. *



If you mean me, and not Dan, I actually did e-mail you directly.

I'll try again, though.

thanks!

:asian:


----------



## DoctorB (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *Jerome and Tim,
> 
> I just got back from Buffalo after getting up (according to my left coast body time) at 2:00 AM to make a plane flight.
> ...



Dan, 

The basic problem with this is that some people assume that I have all of the power to create this thing - I didn't.  There are some things that I knew after the fact and I was pulled in to it.  It was not my place to stop it.  I let it play out to it's own conclusion.
I let go of it Sunday morning.  Norshadow is banned - ok, he's banned.  Life goes on.  Dispute with Tim?  Nah!  We are not best friends, but so what?  Life goes on!  I am looking forward to some other things and others can stall out and beat this Norshadow thing until they get too tired to care any more.  That is their thing, not mine.  Yes, Keith is one of my students, and yes he shared the Norshadow ID with another friend and fellow student.  Now everyone knows, it's done Norshadow has been banned and that is that.  Anything else that you need or want to say, just call me.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 16, 2003)

:angry: 

ticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticotockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktock.......


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 16, 2003)

I can't be logged on all night, unfortunatily.

I hope Dr. B will answer my private e-mail either here or in private, and I'll address anything that needs to be addressed tomorrow.

good-night kisses.....

 

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


----------



## bloodwood (Jul 16, 2003)

> The basic problem with this is that some people assume that I have all of the power to create this thing - I didn't. There are some things that I knew after the fact and I was pulled in to it. It was not my place to stop it. I let it play out to it's own conclusion.


 I let go of it Sunday morning. Norshadow is banned - ok, he's banned. Life goes on. Dispute with Tim? Nah! We are not best friends, but so what? Life goes on! I am looking forward to some other things and others can stall out and beat this Norshadow thing until they get too tired to care any more. That is their thing, not mine. Yes, Keith is one of my students, and yes he shared the Norshadow ID with another friend and fellow student. Now everyone knows, it's done Norshadow has been banned and that is that. Anything else that you need or want to say, just call me.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

This is a typical DrB post, confrontational and a chip on his shoulder. Maybe he hasn't realized it yet but he shot himself in the foot on this one. He also is getting nastier with each post, so I guess he's aiming for his other foot now.

bloodwood


----------



## Cthulhu (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *Now you, even further away from the main players and outside of the loop in terms of some private messages, want to make judgements based on what has been posted thus far.  Good luck!
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D. *



Not necessarily.  Via my instructor, I have access to Datu Inocalla, and through him, the MoTTs.  Unfortunately, I was unable to make their seminar this past weekend, but I'm sure I'll hook up with them eventually.      If Mr. Hartman ever makes it back down to Florida, I'd be more than happy to meet with him as well.

Cthulhu


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Not necessarily.  Via my instructor, I have access to Datu Inocalla, and through him, the MoTTs.  Unfortunately, I was unable to make their seminar this past weekend, but I'm sure I'll hook up with them eventually.      If Mr. Hartman ever makes it back down to Florida, I'd be more than happy to meet with him as well.
> 
> Cthulhu *



:asian:


----------



## arnisador (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *since it was Hartman who suggested both the "audition" and the Symposium as the site*



This doesn't seem to be correct--looking at the e-mail exchange, Lamont NorShadow suggested the audition after having suggested he teach at a camp. Mr. Hartman seemed to be discouraging it and merely said they could _talk_ at the Symposium. If you're going by what was posted, I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that Mr. Hartman suggested the audition. If you're not going by that then you must know something the rest of us don't.



> *I was placed in the middle of a dispute and I allowed it to play out.  *



I understood that you brokered the actual meeting at the Symposium--calling Mr. Hartman and others into a separate room and introducing Lamont NorShadow to them, and that you broke the news that the Lamont NorShadow character did not exist and was one or more other individuals. Is this accurate?



> *Hartman thought he knew something about the true identity of Norshadow, but he was wrong! *



He was lied to by one or more of your students, if that's what you mean.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 16, 2003)

The following is part of a post from Escrima Digest. June 8, 1999 from Lamont Norshadow.



> *
> From: Norshadow@NSTAFF.SUNYERIE.EDU*
> Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 19:33:48 EST
> Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #207
> ...



Let me explain how the E-Digest works. To post you must submit from the e-mail address that you signed up on. Notice the address: Norshadow@NSTAFF.SUNYERIE.EDU  This is a STAFF address from the college where Dr. Barber works.  Neither of the two people who are claiming to be Lamont at the moment were at the college at that time nor were they staff.  Lamont has been around for quite some time and can be traced on E-Digest and other forums out there.  With information like this, it is hard for me to think that it is anyone except for Dr. Barber himself.  Maybe some of the posts were from his students, but as we see in this sample post, it was used to placate his ego and do a little self-promotion.  Seeing that this is a STAFF e-mail address, it makes it kind of hard for anyone else to be making the posts.  I have no clue what has caused this recent attack from Dr. Barber and/or his pupils.  In the past year, I have let Dr. Barber use my school three times at no cost for events that he was promoting.  He and his students have always been welcome to visit and I have always made it a point to go over to his people, greet them, shake hands, etc.  

Now I have this childish, unprovoked attack.  I havent said anything nor done anything to Dr. Barber, yet several of his students helped him in playing these games.  This kind of crap has been happening for over ten years now and Im putting an end to it now.  Dr. Barber and his students are no longer welcome at my school or any of my events here in Buffalo.  If Dr. Barber or his people show up, they will be asked to leave the premises and treated as trespassers, with the exception of Keith.  From reading these posts that Dr. Barber has been putting up on MartialTalk, I get the feeling that this audition was supposed to be more of a challenge that anything else.  If this was the case, I would have been more than happy to pick a stick up and crack him in the head.  As we all know, I am flying to the Philippines so I can meet  Moro Moro.  Picking up a stick and walking across the floor would have been much easier.  Personally I think Dr Barber is trying to make it something that it is not. I think those who understand the English language could tell from the e-mail correspondence that I posted on MT that it was Lamont who mentioned an audition.  I tried to make my point in a polite manner but someone didnt get it.  I had planned on telling whomever was going to claim that they were Lamont that they were a clueless idiot and wasnt interested in the pair teaching at my event. 

This whole thing has been a waste of my time as well as the administrative staff at MT.  Barber was caught breaking the rules and is now scrambling to find a fall guy.  I dont care how he tries to explain away how Lamont had a staff e-mail address from Dr. Barbers college, I am done with this BS.  I want to thank all who have shown me support through all of this and maybe Camp Barber may do us all a service by finding themselves a new playground.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 16, 2003)

For those keeping score:

"NorShadow" either posted or visited MartialTalk from the following locations:

The Locations:
ECC College
Chicago Il.
Tampa Fl.
Naval Military Address' Pacific Fleet
San Diego, Ca
Hawaii

These are aproximate due to the nature of these traces, and also the fact that given the current climate, I'm not backtracing a military network too hard.  I am of course willing to turn over full web logs to any attorneys and LEOs.

Dr. Barber is a staff member at ECC.
Tim Kashino is a member of the military and has accessed this forum from the same locations as "NorShadow".
"Keith" I have no clue who he is.

The majority of the posts took place from ECC, with the more recent ones coming from San Diego, CA or the military address'.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *Jerome and Tim,
> 
> I just got back from Buffalo after getting up (according to my left coast body time) at 2:00 AM to make a plane flight.
> ...



Dan,

Yes as adults one would assume that people are above this type of thing. Yet it is the human being that keeps surprising me the most. And not in a good way 

And I did have a load of this. (* Get it RP = Rich Parsons Cheap Humor , when we all know it is Remy Presas *)

It was good to talk to you today on the phone.
:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Someone using a false name and identity so he could set up a demonstration of the "secret techniques" that the Professor taught only him, and insisting that a datu stand for some sort of unspecified challenge? Yes, seeing how the Professor treated [name omitted--"the Duck" if you were there (MSU 1987 or 1988)] in public for what I would consider lesser offenses, I wonder how he'd take it if he knew that the host of a Modern Arnis event had orchestrated such an affair. This deceit hardly seems in keeping with an event meant to be one that would bring people together in his memory after his passing.
> 
> I just can't see what Dr. Barber and "Keith" hoped to gain by using the Symposium to play a trick on one of the guest instructors, and by the pushy and rude behaviour of "Lamont NorShadow" in general. Bashing Mr. Hartman and/or PAUL after the fact for not following whatever secret rules were in effect isn't winning any points with me either. *



Arni,

I need this right now. The Duck  :rofl: :roflmao:

I have not heard that name in years. And I remember meeting him 1987, first Mi Camp.

:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *. . .
> 
> I was never part of the "audition" other than being an observer and since it was Hartman who suggested both the "audition" and the Symposium as the site, perhaps you need to take that matter up with him.  I was placed in the middle of a dispute and I allowed it to play out.  Others have made it into the big deal that it has become.  It was not my job to "save" either person, they are both grown men.  Hartman thought he knew something about the true identity of Norshadow, but he was wrong!  Now you, even further away from the main players and outside of the loop in terms of some private messages, want to make judgements based on what has been posted thus far.  Good luck!
> ...




Jerome et al,

Unfortunately, I was there and wish I could forget it.

Yet, to me, it was you who *Directed* the naming of the students, and then for the *audition* to begin. You seemed to enjoy this involvement and how it was all playing out.

Sunday Morning when I talked to Tim K., he was not surprised nor upset with the ban of the Norshadow account. When I talked to Keith, he looked surprised and gave me a look like why would he care about the account and or sign up with his real name, when I told him, he could. You see, I was trying even then to be polite to everyone involved. I felt obliged to tell everyone in person and not do it online.

Later that morning when I told you and Richard C. at the same time, Richard was upset to be included. You were surprised, and upset after you had heard my comments. You told me, we could not do this. You told me, we had no right to do this. You told me, that we do not know what we have done. Then you were muttering about how it should have been Tim (H) on the floor, and that it was all Tim's Fault. You then told me it was not me, and that you would talk to Tim (H). I left you and Richard then to attend a session of the symposium.

Now this could have been someone who was just caught off guard and upset, and talking out loud. Or it could have been someone upset over not having things go their way or the way they envisioned them to have gone.

If I had to choose, who was upset by reading people and their reactions, when I was informing them of the Decision to BAN Norshadow. Then I would have to pick you as being not only involved, but also deeply involved, just based upon reaction alone.


At the end of Sunday, Tim Kashino paid me a great compliment, by asking why I had not taught at the symposium. I replied that I had asked to teach just like many others, yet for what ever reason I did not make the list. Yet, I  was not going to miss the event and the chance to work out with some of those on your original list. I go to events, and people see me, and I have been asked by people who host to teach. Hence my two appearances with the WMAA. As a Non-member I hope you can see that they do invite people in that they know or have seen.  I show up and if people like me and what I have to offer, cool. If not then no big deal.  This is how I do things. No better, no worse, just me.

With this post I do not expect you to wish to see me, at any of your events, even though I have tried to  remain neutral in this. You see I have been a long standing member of Eskrima Digest and also Martial Talk. I have seen and replied to Lamont's posts. The writing styles and jokes and cross posts are just too close, to not have been influenced by You, Jerome. 

OK, so someone was using a fake name. OK someone wanted to teach at an event and they were told no. Then the audition came about whether it was asked for or just given. The announcement of the fact that two people were Norshadow. Two rules broken, one when checked the real names for the Admins, was Lamont Norshadow, and the second not keeping your password private. So the account was banned. Now dealing with the fall out. Personally I wish I could just forget it all and have it go away.


Once again I do not understand what you gain from this line of reasoning? I do not understand the point of the audition nor the denial of involvement? I see no logical way to benefit from this event. And in this I include myself. I loose if I stay quiet with my opinions, for I Have to listen to all the innuendoes and half statements. I loose if I speak out, for it is my word versus yours, and that of your students.

And in the End as Dan Anderson has put it, we all loose.

I apologize to the members of MY and in particular the Modern Arnis. community. I may or may not be online for a while. If it is an emergency call me at 248-467-9454 or e-mail me at richparsonsjr@yahoo.com.  I will be out riding my motorcycle or teaching my students for their test coming up soon, or even training myself, or traveling to teach or to learn from others.

With Respect and with Apologies.
:asian:


----------



## Emptyglass (Jul 17, 2003)

Hi Rich:

Actually, I just happened to kind of be in the vicinity of that conversation and didn't hear any of it (other than the part about the account being deleted) as you guys were talking kind of low, it was kind of loud in the gym and quite honestly not my concern. I wouldn't call my reaction upset, more confused as to why you were telling me about it. But hey, whatever. 

Thanks,

Richard Curren



> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *
> Later that morning when I told you and Richard C. at the same time, Richard was upset to be included.
> :asian: *


----------



## Roland (Jul 17, 2003)

Just curious.









Of course it sounds like a few bad apples making it suck for the rest of us really.
Or maybe it is the other way around with a few serious practioners who made it a problem for those who had other agendas.


----------



## Dieter (Jul 17, 2003)

> So, did anyone really go to this event to train? Just curious.



Well as a techer and participant of the symposium I can say, that neither the "Norshadow", nor the "audition" issue was a matter of discussion there. Both came up really only here in the forum after the symposium had ended. 
Maybe exept for those few people, who were there during the discussion/audition. 
That my have been 6 people or so, you would have to ask somebody, who was there (I think Paul Janulis, Rich Parson, Tim Hartman, "Keith", Richard Curren and Dr. Barber from what I have read. But I am not sure)
I was not there and we did not hear about it.

I would say 90% were there to train and have fun and they succeeded, even though we hear here mostly the other 10%


Regards


Dieter Knüttel


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> *Just curious.*



Roland,
The answer is *yes*.  I and everyone else came to teach and train.  The _Lamont audition_ was, in terms of time and energy, a brief moment _after_ a full day of training sessions.  Unfortunately, it has been blown up to appear like it was the buzz of the entire Symposium.  It was closed doors and only a few people knew about it.  

I was was almost there as I was going to go to be "introduced" to Norshadow as "he" and I had some pleasant exchanges on MartialTalk and if one really explores the various Symposium threads, "he"owed me a beer.  Then, in some hitherto unrevealed til now secret plan, I got waylayed by people wanting to buy my books and the next thing you know, they were nowhere to be found.  I suspect it was a plot to keep me out of the loop and into the $ (humor, guys!).

This whole thing is an unfortunate occurance which is taking on the flavor of being the main topic of the Symposium.  That is sad but believe me, it wasn't the Symposium.  It took about just as much time as Jerome and I discussing a disagreement I had late in the Sympo except apparantly our disagreement got handled and this one didn't  

I had a good time there hooking up with my WMAA buds Tim, Rich and Paul.  I always have a good time with them, whether talking or training.  I finally got to meet Tom Bolden, who I've heard about for some time.  We went over some connected history regarding FMA and kenpo.  As usual, Dieter and I got into some fun free play which ended up in both of simultaneously locking each other up.  I met and was very impressed with the personality of Dawud Muhammed.  Very nice guy!  And as always, any time I'm around my "little brother" Bram, I find there isn't enough time.  It goes way too quickly.  As usual, his CSSD/SC students were the model of manners and great training partners.  I got to meet and play with Tim Kashino and Rich Curren, two guys I've had e-conversations with.  Again good fun.  I didn't hook up with Peter Vargas nor Paul Martin but it certainly wasn't personal - time restraints.

My only personal regret is I didn't get there in time to participate on Friday night.  Oh well.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *Dan,
> 
> Anything else that you need or want to say, just call me.
> ...



Jerome,
I emailed part of this to you privately but this is for the public record as well.  You and I - no problem.  Tim and I - no problem.   It's the stuff like this Norshadow business that demeans all of us.  

I am guilty of that as well with stuff with Kelly and (Randi Shea led) IMAF.  My fences have been mended and now I get long with them as well as my current circle of friends and compatriots.  Unfortunately, this is part of the "legacy" RP left us.  A very fragmented group.  Or is it just a microcosm of what Y2K society in the US consists of?  Hmmm.

Yours,
Dan

PS - You get a chance to check out the Miles Davis cds?


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 17, 2003)

Then we can put this horse to rest.....:deadhorse 

1. *CHALLANGE??* : Based on what I have been hearing from others, as well as what has been posted on line, it has been implied was that this "audition" was more then just a Demo, but that it was a challange match of some kind.

If this was supposed to be a challange match, then this imply's 2 things. #1 Tim Hartman backed down from a challange. #2 I was beat by "largo mano" in a challange match. Both implications I take serious issue with.

Niether implication could be further from the truth; up until implications where made, we all took this as a demonstration, Kieth included. It was clear that I was only feeding him a 1-12 strike to aid him in his demo, so he wouldn't get hurt, and so he could share his technique with us. It was clear that I was not trying to beat him. It was also clear that he wasn't trying to beat me either. Outside of a few accidental grazes with the cane due to lack of control, Kieth wasn't trying to hit me.

Bottom line: this was a demonstration, not a challange.

I needed to make sure that we were all on the same page on this one, however. This was what my Private E-mail was about to Dr. Barber. If Dr. Barber was saying that this was a challange, then I would be put in the poor position to have to personally remedy the situation. 

I am happy to say, that at least according to the Private E-mail, Dr. Barber agrees that this was not a "challange match." So, thankfully, we are all on the same page with this one at least.

So I'll repeat for clarity: THIS AUDITION WAS A DEMONSTRATION, NOT A CHALLANGE!

2. *Malicious intent?* I am not sure what actual outcome was intended by Dr. Barber and/or his students with this situation. But based on all the evidence available, the only thing that seems clear to me is that this was all one big attempt to Bring Tim Hartman and the WMAA down, an attempt that horribly failed.

Now, I will admit that I have been angry with others in the past. I have argued with, and hammered on others regarding issue's of "truth". I, however, would never try to hurt someones career or life, nor would I ever actually wish someone ill-will. This does not seem to be the case with this other "camp."

I guess my point is that I understand that Dr. B and Datu Hartman have had their troubles in the past. This is more then just a case of "2 people argueing". This is a case of a group of Dr. Barbers students (how big or small, I do not know) and Dr. Barber himself (to what level of involvement I cannot say, but he "brokered" the deal, which is enough involvement for me) maliciously trying to construct a scenario to bring down someone else (Mr. Hartman and the WMAA in this case).

This attempt has blown up in their faces. However, this doesn't change the fact that this behavior is malicious. This doesn't change the fact that this behavior is destructive! It is destructive to those guilty of the behavior, and it is destructive to the Modern Arnis Community! And to add fuel to the fire, a great idea and potentially great event (symposium) was used as the "proving ground" for this malicious and negative behavior.

Furthermore, let us not forget that despite differences, Tim has tried very hard to keep the Barber camp in the Modern Arnis Family. They've always been invited to our events. Dr. Barber has used Tim's school for events. Dr. B's students have always been welcomed in Tim's school. If you want to go back even further, I believe Tim had been asked by Remy Presas in the past to strip Dr. Barber of his rank, and to give him the boot; Tim did not oblige Remy on this request. 

And all this for what!?!?!? Tim extends his hand, only to have it slapped. Well, I was glad to hear how Tim will be handling this from now on. The Barber camp has f-ed up on this one for the very last time; and now they are officially cut off. I am glad to see that Tim is going to seperate himself from people who insist on being malicous towards him. It would take, I am sure, a great amount of apologies and healing time for this decision to change.

And as for those of you who were a part of this malicious behavior: shame on you! You have disgraced yourself, and your art. If you can be saved, I hope you will learn from this and make ammends. For those of you who were a part of this, and who will always be malicious, you have just nailed yourselves into your own coffin; and by Tim cutting you off, the shovels of dirt have been thrown on your grave.

3. *To be, or not to be............involved????*

I wanted to state that becuase I did not (and still do not) know who to trust regarding this circumstance, when mentioning the "audition," I mentioned those who were there based on what I had seen.

Apparently some individuals were angry with me because they claim that they were only a witness, and not directly involved.

I have something to say regarding this. Perhaps some of you will recall when you were younger a parent or teacher warning you to pay attention to who you hang around with? That some people might be bad influences on you? I'll appropriatly quote my on mother hear: "if you are at the store, and one of your dopy friends that your with decides to shoplift, guess what? You'll go to jail with him as an accomplice!" Get what I mean? Some friendly advise from someone who hasn't been around for very long: watch who you decide to hang around with. 

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then it must be a duck, right boys and girls?

So, for some of you who "only witnessed", I assumed that you were a duck. So did/do everybody else. This was/is a fair assumption.

And if you weren't "involved" in that audition, then guess what? You should have talked to Tim, Rich, or Myself the next day in private to clear things up.

So I will apoligize to a degree if I threw you name in as an accomplice if you were only a witness......................but ask yourself, is it really my fault?

My suggestion to those who (whether accidently or on purpose) "walk like ducks" is this: If you value your own developement or CAREER as a martial artist, don't hang out with people who are going to suck you into negative situations, or play you like a pawn in a immature and malicious game. Start hanging out with people who are actually going to help you.

4.  *Conclusion:* 

I'll conclude this long post with this: It has been cleared up that this audition was not a challange match. It has been determined that there was maliciuos intent with this charade, at the very least. It has all been handled accordingly. So at least on a Modern Arnis level, the problem is taken care of for now, for it will probably never be "solved."

All that is left is the problem between Martial Talk and the violators. I am sure the Administators of this forum, who I trust to make fair and right decisions, will conclude this problem accordingly, and keep us posted on these conclusions.

But from an Arnis perspective, we can let this go into the archives, and move forward towards bigger and better things.

Any questions or concerns with me, please PM me.

Thank You,

Paul Janulis


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dieter _
> *
> 
> I would say 90% were there to train and have fun and they succeeded, even though we hear here mostly the other 10%
> ...



Good point, Dieter. This B.S. was not the focus of this event. I had fun training and meeting new people for sure.

What made this event good was not the host, or the instructors. It was the group of students who came to learn and train. There "agenda" was to train and have a good time. These were the people who I actually had fun with.

I echo Rich when I say that I wish I wasn't apart of these other personal agendas that were negative. Oh well, can't change the past. I can only be glad to have experienced the positive training within the event.

  :asian:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dieter _
> *
> I would say 90% were there to train and have fun and they succeeded, even though we hear here mostly the other 10%
> Regards
> Dieter Knüttel *



It was hard for me to enjoy myself with JB using the Symp as a stage for these games of his. As I said when you where at my home, I felt that the symp was part of a bigger plan.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> All that is left is the problem between Martial Talk and the violators. I am sure the Administators of this forum, who I trust to make fair and right decisions, will conclude this problem accordingly, and keep us posted on these conclusions.



Yes, lets wrap this unpleasentness up now.

As of today, Doctor Barber has been suspended from MartialTalk for his part in this incident. Other interested parties have been refered to this thread for details.

He will be allowed back in Mid October.

It is unfortunate that an event with the potential to be something wonderful is marred by this scandal.  Those involved in the deception should be ashamed of themselves, and in my -opinion- are not fit to call themselves martial artists.


With this said, let us put this unfortunate chapter behind us.  I understand there were many excellent sessions at the symposium, and I hope that everyone will now focus on the positive that came out of the event, rather than this negative.

Peace.
:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jul 18, 2003)

I went to the symposium to see some people I have not before. They were either my senior in rank or in age and or both. And I wanted to see them for myself. Being the Young Pup of 36 and having 17+ years of Modern Arnis.

I did not see everyone I wanted too. I did get a chance to work with some I did, and also to talk with old friends, even if we have ben friends for only a year or so 


:asian:


----------



## Emptyglass (Jul 19, 2003)

Bob:

Actually the Symposium was something wonderful and unfortunately some people who attended (and some who didn't) have chosen to concentrate on this relatively minor and private topic rather than make statements or ask questions about the quality of the Symposium and its participants and instructors. Talk about concentrating on a distraction.

What did this entire thing have to do with the Symposium proper? Nothing at all, all of the instructors who attended still taught (including Mr. Hartman and Dr. Barber who organized and ran the thing by the way), all of the participants still seemed to enjoy themselves and absorb what was useful to them.

I think it is unfortunate that you (a person who didn't attend) feels that they are in a position to judge how successful or valuable the event was. Anyone, who chooses to believe that the organization of the entire Sympoisum with instructors and students from all over the world was simply to further some kind of political agenda or grudge between anyone is a fool plain and simple.

These are my personal opinions so if you have any comments or questions about them, take them up with me. 

Thanks,

Richard Curren




> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *It is unfortunate that an event with the potential to be something wonderful is marred by this scandal.
> :asian: *


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 19, 2003)

Richard,
  I think you misunderstood what I said.  I didn't say that the Symposium was negated or a total setup.  I said it was marred by this incident.  Nothing more.

I'm more interested in hearing about the actual event at this point as I was unable to attend due to a prior commitment. (That being a seminar on web development and a photoshoot for a charity project at a sci-fi convention)

As to judging, well, I can only go by what is focused on by those who were, and there is more 'negative' than 'positive' at this moment.  I'd prefer that those who were there goto the 'good' threads and fill us in on all the fun they had.

As I said:


> With this said, let us put this unfortunate chapter behind us. I understand there were many excellent sessions at the symposium, and I hope that everyone will now focus on the positive that came out of the event, rather than this negative.




Everyone, if you were involved with the Symp., please put up your thoughts.  But not in this thread.  Please either use an existing symposium thread, or start a fresh one.  

Thank you.
:asian:


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *
> 
> As to judging, well, I can only go by what is focused on by those who were, and there is more 'negative' than 'positive' at this moment.  I'd prefer that those who were there goto the 'good' threads and fill us in on all the fun they had.
> ...



Bob,
Unfortunately, most of the yap has been with the Norshadow biz but there was FAR more positive in the event.  Hell, *I* was there!  How can you have anything but a wonderful event with me there?  You've been to the two WMAA camps and I was there.  Were they not truely wonderful events?  Thank you - With that, your Honor, I rest my case.

Wonderfully yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## arnisador (Jul 19, 2003)

Remember, while this event may have been of relatively small importance to the Symposium, it is of more importance to this webboard as this board was the medium used for the deception. So, I am not surprised to see it heavily discussed here, but I too would like to see more detailed reviews of the Symposium itself!


----------

