# Hapkido Hand Strikes: Neglected?



## Doomx2001 (Jan 27, 2013)

In most styles of Hapkido there are hand strikes (knifehand, ridgehand, vertical fist, horizontal fist..etc), but, how often do we train our hands? 

The point and question I'm eluding to is this: we often practice kicks almost every class if not every single class, but do we treat hand strikes with the same respect as we do our legs?
In my opinion some styles do, while others neglect it all together. 

So what is your all's striking training methods? Is hands strikes neglected in Hapkido?


 - Brian


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## Uncle (Jan 27, 2013)

Improper balance of hand and foot techniques seems to be the norm in Korean martial arts and seems to be one of the major reasons they can't compete with other arts at higher levels.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle said:


> Improper balance of hand and foot techniques seems to be the norm in Korean martial arts and seems to be one of the major reasons they can't compete with other arts at higher levels.


Higher levels of what?


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle said:


> Improper balance of hand and foot techniques seems to be the norm in Korean martial arts and seems to be one of the major reasons they can't compete with other arts at higher levels.


I have another theory: Korean arts in the US are notorious for fast promotion; so, you have a lot of Black belts that should have had more time in the art, but I wouldn't discount the arts themselves. Geez! LOL


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## Uncle (Jan 27, 2013)

I would never discount Korean arts entirely but you don't usually see a whole lot of taekwondo guys in high level full contact fighting and when you do what you usually see is kicks common to kickboxing and muay thai and that they've cross trained in boxing/kickboxing/muay thai to shore up the weaknesses in hand techniques.


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## iron_ox (Jan 27, 2013)

Hello all,

From my perspective, most people, even those in "Hapkido" don't even know what strikes are from the art of Choi Dojunim, and which are just add ons from other places because the actual strikes are not known.  Another issue is that most people do not take the time to find the correct muscles in the hand that must be tightened and conditioned to make strikes effective.  That would be the first thing that should be addressed.  "Finding" the muscles in the hand that actually are part of the contact of the strike and learning to control them is a bit of a slow process, but very useful.

Not sure what is meant by "improper balance" between use of hand and foot, certainly is not all the case in Hapkido. Possibly in some sort of sporting venue, but certainly not as a martial art.


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## Doomx2001 (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle said:


> I would never discount Korean arts entirely but you don't usually see a whole lot of taekwondo guys in high level full contact fighting and when you do what you usually see is kicks common to kickboxing and muay thai and that they've cross trained in boxing/kickboxing/muay thai to shore up the weaknesses in hand techniques.



I would agree with that overall. The thing I've notice with almost all martial arts is that for martial arts (regardless of country of origin) that have kata's, the students don't fight/spar the way they train. Their kata's don't reflect their fighting nor does their fighting reflect their katas. 

Regardless of kata's (as that is a different issue altogether), most people (but not all) who train to do blocks, certain hand movements, and joint locks, never do them when sparring. It always looks like a kick boxing match, because it is. And that to me is very disappointing. Training how to use hands is very important as that is a 'close range' tool. And 'close range' is where Hapkido operates. Kicking is good for distance, distraction, and 'long range' fighting. You really do need a balance of both. 

For me personally, I feel training the hands should be about 60% and the legs 40% of your training at any given class. Especially since most kicks taught today are unrealistic in a street fight, and that is not to say that people can't do high kicks in a street fight, just that most of us humans cannot. I think it is fine to train to do flashy high kicks for the purpose of loosening up your lower body for more flexability, but for practicallity low level kicks aim at the belly or lower should be the focus of the kicking regime. 

Anyway, my opinions aside, what blocking and striking sets do you all train? How many repetitions?


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## Doomx2001 (Jan 27, 2013)

iron_ox said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Most people do not take the time to find the correct muscles in the hand that must be tightened and conditioned to make strikes effective.  That would be the first thing that should be addressed.  "Finding" the muscles in the hand that actually are part of the contact of the strike and learning to control them is a bit of a slow process, but very useful.



Could you expound on this a little more? I'm curious as to GM Choi's perspective on hand strikes/blocks as you was taught. I think that would add more depth to what were talking about.


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## iron_ox (Jan 27, 2013)

Doomx2001 said:


> Could you expound on this a little more? I'm curious as to GM Choi's perspective on hand strikes/blocks as you was taught. I think that would add more depth to what were talking about.



Hello all,

I think one of the most important things is to recognize that Hapkido is a "Sword art without a sword".  The strikes likewise are very similar to sword motions, and often have not only similar trajectories but also similar targets.  It might be easier to explain in video I'm thinking.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 27, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> I have another theory: Korean arts in the US are notorious for fast promotion; so, you have a lot of Black belts that should have had more time in the art, but I wouldn't discount the arts themselves. Geez! LOL



With respect, Korean arts in Korea itself are rather fast.  On the flip side, the quickest I've seen a Korean Hapkido GM here in America promote to Dan rank is a single weekend with no prior HKD training.  That unfortunately isn't an exaggeration.  Sometimes it is more about the greenbacks than quality.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 27, 2013)

Doomx2001 said:


> So what is your all's striking training methods? Is hands strikes neglected in Hapkido?
> - Brian



As far as the striking aspects, in our training hand techniques far outweigh foot techniques.  The reason is that the majority of my/our students are more apt to be involved in a close-quarter altercations where a quick strike with the edge-of-hand/forearm/elbow followed by a lock/throw is far likelier than a kick.  And the kicking we do is also designed for CQ tactics i.e. low kicks, kicks to off-balance/set up for something else etc.  

I'm not claiming this is the norm for other HKD schools, just ours (if/when we use that label).


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## Doomx2001 (Jan 27, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> As far as the striking aspects, in our training hand techniques far outweigh foot techniques.  The reason is that the majority of my/our students are more apt to be involved in a close-quarter altercations where a quick strike with the edge-of-hand/forearm/elbow followed by a lock/throw is far likelier than a kick.  And the kicking we do is also designed for CQ tactics i.e. low kicks, kicks to off-balance/set up for something else etc.
> 
> I'm not claiming this is the norm for other HKD schools, just ours (if/when we use that label).



So how do you guys practice your blocks and strikes?


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## Dwi Chugi (Jan 27, 2013)

Doomx2001 said:


> In most styles of Hapkido there are hand strikes (knifehand, ridgehand, vertical fist, horizontal fist..etc), but, how often do we train our hands?
> 
> The point and question I'm eluding to is this: we often practice kicks almost every class if not every single class, but do we treat hand strikes with the same respect as we do our legs?
> In my opinion some styles do, while others neglect it all together.
> ...



The system of Hapkido I teach is dedicated to pure street defense in the first year of training. It's more of hoshinsool/yusool system at first and less of a Hapkido art form. 

In MuSool Hapkido; we only use palm heal strike, hammer fist and elbow strikes in the first year in training. 

The only kicks or leg strikes we use in that time period is front kick, round kick (with the ball and instep), inverted kick, cut/push kick and knees. Most of the kicks are done on the lower part of the body. The cut/push kick is used for distance control and the knees can be thrown in the clinch. 

We spend about the same amount of time striking as we do kicking however, we spend more time on takedowns and throws then striking and kicking.

Most of the blocking is done in a more of a covering fashion. Our goal in the first year is to close the gap and tie up the attackers arms. Secure a take down or throw and lock up the attacker while the defender is still on their feet. 

Our system focuses more on someone with no or very little skill attacking you at first. I believe you are way more likely to be attacked by a street thug than a trained martial artist. Someone that knows nothing attacks differently than someone that is trained. We use a lot of drills to secure muscle memory. 

In the second and third year of training (after green belt) our system starts to look more like Hapkido and less like a yusool or jujitsu style.  We add more of the strikings you see in other Hapki systems. They include knife hand strike, ridge hand, Hapkido knuckle, spear hand, spear fingers as well as strikes you may or may not see in other systems like jab/cross punches. 

The only other kicks added to the second and third year of training are side kick, twist kick and spin back kick. All the kicks are low kicks except for the back kick. That is aimed for the mid-section of the body. 

We add soft outer, inner and upper blocks so we can trap the hand of our attacker for throws. 

Our time from white to green belt is right at a year. It takes another year to 18 months to obtain a purple belt. To earn a brown belt a student needs to be training regularly for a year or a little more. Brown to deputy black belt takes about a year and a half. Deputy black belt to black belt takes six months to a year. 

My cousin has been training for 8 years and will be testing for his black belt in October. I only mentioned the time frame because someone posted that Korean systems give black belts fast. That may be true in some styles of the Korean arts but both myTaekwondo and Hapkido Masters made me wait for the appropriate time so in turn, my students do the same. 

I know I "quoted" the original question but tried to answer all other questions and statements posted after that question as well.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 28, 2013)

Doomx2001 said:


> So how do you guys practice your blocks and strikes?



Most of our blocks are actually strikes in-and-of-themselves.  For example, what is typically called a high block (which typically is very ineffective/dangerous as an actual high block) is a forearm ram/strike while pulling the attacker off-balance.  A low block (which again is a very ineffective/dangerous movement if used as a block) is a hammer fist strike to a lower extremity, again while off-balancing the attacker and setting them up for a throw or other conclusion.  An inside knife hand block is far more effective while grappling to damage an attackers arm either from the inside (to set up a low block/hammer fist or from the outside to set up an arm bar/take down).  As an actual block to stop an incoming punch it is marginal to ineffective due mainly to action/reaction time.

As far as an actual block is considered, we do so off of the flinch response and it is all gross motor skilled reactions.  In this regard, a palm heel block is effective as is the O'Neill Cover and wedge block.  

For training on striking we use a variety of methods.  Live action drills of course where we are striking someone that is moble and doesn't want to be struck.  Use of the BOB is great for targeting and conditioning against a big, heavy object and of course solo/kata/form training (like shadow boxing).  Also body conditioning where your partner is throwing a live punch at you and you are blocking it as hard as possible (within the bounds of safety and common sense of course) to condition the arms/legs/torso etc.  This isn't necessarily HKD and is actually an old Okinawan karate drill that I use from my early days in Karate.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 28, 2013)

Dwi Chugi said:


> My cousin has been training for 8 years and will be testing for his black belt in October. I only mentioned the time frame because someone posted that Korean systems give black belts fast. That may be true in some styles of the Korean arts but both myTaekwondo and Hapkido Masters made me wait for the appropriate time so in turn, my students do the same.



I like this, it is the way it should be done.  No need to rush just for a piece of colored cloth.


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## Dwi Chugi (Jan 28, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I like this, it is the way it should be done.  No need to rush just for a piece of colored cloth.



Thank you. I agree. I take very little stock in rank. It was made up for judo and comes from a Japanese board game called go. Japanese swimming used the rank system first and Kano adopted it from them. At first it was white belt and black belt but when judo started to spread to Europe they adopted a color belt system. The Koreans jumped on board with their arts. 

A few years back I had a father bring in his 15 year old son that had obtained a third degree black belt in Taekwondo. He wanted to know how long it would take him to earn his Fourth Dan in my taekwondo program and I told him 5 or 6 years at least. The father took his son to a school two city's north of me and he received his rank at age 16. 

After obtaining the rank the kid comes back and says "I'm a master of taekwondo and I'm looking for a job to teach". I'd just hired one of my First Dans and I told him that I only hire my own black belts. He relayed to me that I was making a mistake because he was a master and my 1st Dan just got her black belt. 

I just saw the kid again and he is now in his 20's. He asked me about training in Hapkido. I told him to come in for an interview and he asked if he could wear his 4th Dan black belt. I told him if he could stay on his feet for more than two minutes against a green belt I would allow him too. He thought for a minute and asked, "well they are allowed to throw"?.  My reply was "of course, it's Hapkido". He said "but I don't know Hapkido so that wouldn't be fair".  I guess the light bulb went off because he volunteered to wear a white belt. Blows my mind.


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## Dwi Chugi (Jan 28, 2013)

With the above being said, I do respect martial artist of any rank that has earned that rank.


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## iron_ox (Jan 28, 2013)

Hello all,

In terms of striking, many if not all of the strikes are designed to be done in concert with other techniques, and are rarely done as stand alone things.  While I feel everyone should express their idea of how to fight, when talking about Hapkido, things like "boxing punches" are not really appropriate for the art.  But again, if someone is teaching a hybrid/variant of the art, it is their choice clearly.

As far as the discussion about "time to rank"....yes, in Korea it takes about one year, or a little more to get to black belt - this is because, and I agree, that black belt is a beginner rank - it is not designed to confer mastery, but to show that the person has a grasp of some basics, can take a break fall, and is beginning to have a knowledge of energy dynamics in a conflict.  The Founder of Hapkido only taught for 36 years, he made four 9th dans, a few dozen 8th dans, and more 7th dans - the end of the training curriculum.
I have found that often the reason people are not ranked is because there is a lack of material after black belt from that instructor for the student to learn.  That has been my experience, and may not be the case always. Rank was done on ability, thus many moved very fast through the ranks, they were not held back artificially to drag out, as another example a financial obligation like a contract.


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## Instructor (Jan 28, 2013)

iron_ox said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I think one of the most important things is to recognize that Hapkido is a "Sword art without a sword".  The strikes likewise are very similar to sword motions, and often have not only similar trajectories but also similar targets.  It might be easier to explain in video I'm thinking.



Great analogy...


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## Instructor (Jan 28, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> With respect, Korean arts in Korea itself are rather fast.  On the flip side, the quickest I've seen a Korean Hapkido GM here in America promote to Dan rank is a single weekend with no prior HKD training.  That unfortunately isn't an exaggeration.  Sometimes it is more about the greenbacks than quality.



This is the exception rather than the rule though.  Most Hapkido Schools expect several years of training for Dan rank(at least one year for quick students).  Most also agree that 1st Dan is really the beginning of learning.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 28, 2013)

iron_ox said:


> Hello all,
> 
> In terms of striking, many if not all of the strikes are designed to be done in concert with other techniques, and are rarely done as stand alone things.



Good way to put it.  It makes an excellent lead in to something beyond just the initial strike.  This will give Hapkidoin options in the force continuum that other arts may not provide.



> As far as the discussion about "time to rank"....yes, in Korea it takes about one year, or a little more to get to black belt - this is because, and I agree, that black belt is a beginner rank - it is not designed to confer mastery, but to show that the person has a grasp of some basics, can take a break fall, and is beginning to have a knowledge of energy dynamics in a conflict.



This makes sense as long as the art in question has material after the first Dan.  I don't consider (in the case of some arts) additional forms that are just reworks of the same movements as 'advanced' material.  It will all be relevent to the art in question and more specifically the the school in many/most cases.  The problem creeps up though when a person claims BB status.  As the example above about the 4th Dan shows, it just doesn't always mean what you may think it means.  In the example I gave in another thread, one TKD school was offering, through a Korean Hapkido GM, a HKD BB in just one weekend seminar with no prior HKD experience.  So the HKD BB we run into (or any BB in any art for that matter)...are they a legit Dan holder that knows the material and has sweat equity in the art....or did they get it after a weekend for another piece of wall candy?  

If someone makes a BB in one year, and they KNOW the material (whatever material was required) then thumbs up.  And if they have more material after first Dan to strive for, and additional thumbs up.


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## Instructor (Jan 28, 2013)

I feel a Hapkidoin with a year of training from a reputable school (regardless of belt rank) is a reasonably skilled fighter.  They would do well against untrained attackers.  But real ability in this art takes time, I've been at it for decades and I still learn something new every practice.


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## Dwi Chugi (Jan 28, 2013)

Instructor said:


> I feel a Hapkidoin with a year of training from a reputable school (regardless of belt rank) is a reasonably skilled fighter.  They would do well against untrained attackers.  But real ability in this art takes time, I've been at it for decades and I still learn something new every practice.



I have to agree with you Instructor. After a year of training you should know what you are doing and how to be safe in an attack. 

I think at black belt level one should have mastered the basics of an art.  I understand being a black belt does not make you a superman but it should give you a fighting chance and the more experience you have the better chance you have. A black belt should be able to share their knowledge as well. 

I do not look down on others standards, I just know what mine are. I do think other arts look down at the Korean arts for this reason but I know we don't do things to impress other styles. 

Perhaps I am missing the boat because in my schools 12 year history I have only promoted four people to the rank of black belt in MuSool Hapkido.  I offer contracts if the student wants one but they are not required to be a student at my dojang.


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 29, 2013)

In the Hapkido I learned, you could indeed obtain a black belt in one year.  But it required a lot of time in the dojo.  There was a published set of techniques to learn.  If you didn't spend the time and learn those techniques you would not be promoted.  Not to black belt, nor to any belt you were aspiring to.  It pretty much required 5 or more nights at school per week, and learning more than one technique per session.  It also required demonstration of learning for a belt, not just attendance.  That was on post and set up that way due to most people only being in Korea for one year.  Frankly, there weren't that many black belts as most didn't begin training the minute they arrived in Korea, nor did many attend more than two nights a week.  Two nights a week was the norm expected unless you demonstrated a strong desire and ability to learn, and asked our GM to be allowed to train more often.

Off post it was a different matter.  One technique at a time until mastered, then the next.  You could still learn quickly, but not as much.

As to strikes, our method of teaching strikes was they were first taught as ways to break off a grab.  Later, they might be a way to block a strike or kick, or a final move after a block.


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## Instructor (Jan 29, 2013)

Dwi Chugi said:


> I have to agree with you Instructor. After a year of training you should know what you are doing and how to be safe in an attack.
> 
> I think at black belt level one should have mastered the basics of an art.  I understand being a black belt does not make you a superman but it should give you a fighting chance and the more experience you have the better chance you have. A black belt should be able to share their knowledge as well.
> 
> ...



My teacher has only promoted three to black belt, me and his two son's.  My senior student earned his High Green Belt (5th Gup).  I just sort of offhanded commented to him, "no pressure but you've advanced further than any of my other students and I've been teaching for years."

It isn't that we are hard core or the material is particularly hard to learn, it's just that so few are really committed to staying with something long enough to excel.


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 29, 2013)

Instructor said:


> My teacher has only promoted three to black belt, me and his two son's. My senior student earned his High Green Belt (5th Gup). I just sort of offhanded commented to him, "no pressure but you've advanced further than any of my other students and I've been teaching for years."
> 
> It isn't that we are hard core or the material is particularly hard to learn, *it's just that so few are really committed to staying with something long enough to excel*.



I think the bolded statement is true of all martial arts, but Hapkido particularly.  There are intricate moves to be learned, and there is pain involved in learning as well.  Not everyone wishes to continue that for Hapkido advancement.  The stretching and cardio alone can be daunting.

As I said, no doubt that is true with other martial arts as well.


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