# How do fights 'go to the ground'?



## FearlessFreep (Feb 15, 2005)

I've heard it said that street fights often go to the ground; and I've heard different people from different backgrounds so that it either happens a lot, or doesn't happen much at all.  It really depends I guess on the situation and the fighters in question.

 So I'm wondering that in fights that do end up on the ground; what causes that to happen?  Is it 'inevitable'?  Or does it really depend on the fighters in question and what they do or want to do?

 The reason I ask is that I practice TKD and I'm still a relative beginner, but we don't do TKD for olympic sparring mostly, the focus on the training is more full rounded with a lot of emphasis on self-defense and fighting.  The more I think about it the more I see there is a big difference between 'what I would do in a sparring match' and 'what I woulasc d do against someone really trying to attack me' Anyway, we practice using basic TKD blocks to break grabs and avoid grabs in the first place; a lot of strikes to really hurt the aggressor (basic strikes like power to the solar plexus or kidneys or floating ribs, but also pressure point strikes to the wrist to break grasps and  knifehands to the jaw below the ear and stuff); and kicks to cause real damage (sidekick to break the knee, etc...) We do some basic takedowns as well and my instructor has said that we will do some ground fighting as well.

 But my reall queastion is...is going to the ground inevitable?  Or just something that seems to be comfortable either for those trained for it for the untrained.  I mean, if some guy bull rushes me with arms out to grab me and throw me down; I suppose I could go down and then fight from there, but given my background, I'm much more likely to try to stop his rush and avoid his grasp and put him down with hard strikes without going down myself.  If some guy pulls on knife on me for my wallet and I fight back, is that fight 'going to the ground'?

 I guess it seems to me that a fight going to the ground is less likely to happen if one of the fighters is well-trained at stand up fighting and hard striking and can beat back the opponent and is determined not to go down in the first place


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## lonecoyote (Feb 15, 2005)

Great post! Yeah, is it accidental, just something that happens when people serious about hurting each other tangle up, or is it intentional, as in someone has to make it happen? This is just my humble opinion, but I think it is a combination of both. Real fighting is chaotic, and your training sounds right on, Fearless, because simple stuff works best, but people do still just get tangled up sometimes.  The only thing I would humbly submit to you is that you shouldn't over simplify other people's takedowns, they're not just bull rushes with arms out, sometimes they are, but a lot of elements go into a proper takedown, and a good takedown of any kind can actually be hard to defend against. To fight well against something you should at least know a little bit about how it is done. Learn a basic single and double leg, and how to counter it, and at least try a supless, and learn to sprawl and spin and you won't get taken down if you are strong with your other stand up, at least against most untrained people.


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## loki09789 (Feb 15, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I've heard it said that street fights often go to the ground; and I've heard different people from different backgrounds so that it either happens a lot, or doesn't happen much at all. It really depends I guess on the situation and the fighters in question.
> 
> So I'm wondering that in fights that do end up on the ground; what causes that to happen? Is it 'inevitable'? Or does it really depend on the fighters in question and what they do or want to do?


Fights go to the ground because they are not dances where people are cooperating.  People are trying to disrupt balance, timing, power....and that leads to stumbles, trips, bobbles...and therefore people are on the ground.

Fatigue, lack of solid stance/transition training, Murphy's law....you name it.

It is NOT inevitable, it is consequencial of people that try to stay and 'fight it out' instead of fighting with a self defense mentallity - focus on escape and not 'winning' and you will be more likely to disengage before fatigue or other factors can create a ground situation.


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## OUMoose (Feb 15, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I mean, if some guy bull rushes me with arms out to grab me and throw me down; I suppose I could go down and then fight from there, but given my background, I'm much more likely to try to stop his rush and avoid his grasp and put him down with hard strikes without going down myself.  If some guy pulls on knife on me for my wallet and I fight back, is that fight 'going to the ground'?



You raise valid points, but there are a couple variables that are missing.  Fights on the street anymore are rarely one on one.  Look at it this way.  Some guy is bull rushing you and you're beating him down and not going down.  Now what happens when his friend comes from behind and tackles you?  Or perhaps just some schmoe from the forming crowd who just feels like throwing down?  

Yes, you could argue that you would be "aware" of the attacker behind you, but even the best fighters get blindsided sometimes, so what do you do when the proverbial excrement hits the air movement device?  If nothing else, groundfighting will teach you how to get back on your feet fast.  

And just a note, if someone pulls a knife on you for your wallet and you fight back, without trying everything you can to escape first, that's insanity.  A little bit of cash and some plastic that can all be replaced is NOT worth your life.  If someone pulls a knife and tries to hurt you or a loved one, that's a different story.  Might want to do some searching on these forums about knife situations and people's take on them.

Hope this helps!


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## KyleShort (Feb 15, 2005)

Going to the ground is also a product of your training.  If you train to take people down all day long, chances are you will be taking them down.  If you train high kicks all the time, chances are you are going down when you don't expect it (every time you lift a foot off the ground you remove 1/2 your balance, the higher you lift it the easier it is to exploit).  

If you train to stay on your feet, sprawl, move with them etc. then you will probably stay standing.  I have been in a number of altercations (teenage years) in the past and I have only been on the ground two times that I can recall.

UOMoose, what do you mean that nowadays fights are rarely 1:1 on the street?  What has changed and compared to what time period?  What data do you base this on?  Also, are you refering to bravado type fights or self defense situations?


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## Cruentus (Feb 15, 2005)

Short Answer: Fight's go to the ground usually because one party overwhelms and dominates the other while standing, causing the dominated party to hit the ground.

Just keep in mind with your training that some ranges are nearly unavoidable in certian fighting circumstances. The very close trapping/clinching range while standing is one of those ranges; it is nearly unavoidable in a weapon free one on one fight. I only mention this to you because I know that as a TKD player, you are most likely sparring from a longer range then where a real encounter will mostly occur. Just as long as you know this, you can make sure your preparing for the shorter range as well.

Knowledge is power, as they say...

Paul


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## KyleShort (Feb 15, 2005)

Hey Paul,

Wouldn't you say that in unarmed vrs. weapon there are essentially two ranges...running away or clinching?  To stay in media or largo is suicide.

All the more reason to train the clinch =)


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## Cruentus (Feb 15, 2005)

KyleShort said:
			
		

> Hey Paul,
> 
> Wouldn't you say that in unarmed vrs. weapon there are essentially two ranges...running away or clinching?  To stay in media or largo is suicide.
> 
> All the more reason to train the clinch =)



Sounds about right to me.  :ultracool 

On the issue of multiple opponents, if one digs through the Fed. Bureau of Statistics on Violent crime, one finds that a little less than 1/4 or 25% of violent crime involves more then one offender (multiple opponents). However, A much larger percentage (over 86%) of those multiple opponent encounters involved males or male and females (like husband and wife). 

So, are multiple opponent encounters the majority? No. But the statistic is high enough to worry about, and certian people will have a greater probability of being in such an encounter depenging on demographics. I think it would do everyone well to prepare for those situations.

Paul


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## OUMoose (Feb 15, 2005)

KyleShort said:
			
		

> UOMoose, what do you mean that nowadays fights are rarely 1:1 on the street?  What has changed and compared to what time period?  What data do you base this on?  Also, are you refering to bravado type fights or self defense situations?


I'm basing that statement off personal experience for the most part.  Of the altercations that I've witnessed or been part of, probably 75% of them were 2 or more guys showing aggression toward a single person.  Occasionally it was group on group, which is always interesting.  

Perhaps I just don't understand the term in this context, but what do you define as a "bravado" type fight?


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## James Kovacich (Feb 15, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Short Answer: Fight's go to the ground usually because one party overwhelms and dominates the other while standing, causing the dominated party to hit the ground.
> 
> Just keep in mind with your training that some ranges are nearly unavoidable in certian fighting circumstances. The very close trapping/clinching range while standing is one of those ranges; it is nearly unavoidable in a weapon free one on one fight. I only mention this to you because I know that as a TKD player, you are most likely sparring from a longer range then where a real encounter will mostly occur. Just as long as you know this, you can make sure your preparing for the shorter range as well.
> 
> ...



That sums it up really well. Some say going to the ground "just happens" and even go as far as using that as their excuse not to practice takedowns because going to the ground "just happens."

But the best defense is a good offense and if one practices takedowns and groundwork alongside or in someway "links" it to their standup. Then they will be much harder to take down.


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## Knifehand (Feb 15, 2005)

Here you go

This site has language, violence and beatings=Adult content... this is to show how people actually fight nowadays...if you didn't already know...

I dare not count how many times people end up on the ground....

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=838757


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 16, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I've heard it said that street fights often go to the ground; and I've heard different people from different backgrounds so that it either happens a lot, or doesn't happen much at all. It really depends I guess on the situation and the fighters in question.
> 
> So I'm wondering that in fights that do end up on the ground; what causes that to happen? Is it 'inevitable'? Or does it really depend on the fighters in question and what they do or want to do?
> 
> ...


On the street it's mostly by accident, although guys now days are learning the ground and takedown game.  Usually, a fight ends up on the ground because two people are upright grappling and either trip over each others feet or debris that's on the ground.  I've seen a few fights where someone has taken someone else to the ground purpose, but that's the exception, not the rule.  People who are getting punched have a tendency to want to hang on to the puncher, to avoid getting punched.  This contributes to the fights ending up on the ground for the "tripping" reasons i've already outlined.


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## MJS (Feb 16, 2005)

On a related note, check this thread out.


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19854&page=5&pp=15

Mike


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## OC Kid (Feb 16, 2005)

The last few street fights I was in, the guy I was fighting tried to get me on the ground. But I was to strong for him to put me there and he was untrained at take downs ect.

Now in these days with the popularity of BJJ alot of people are trained at taking people to the ground. It is their preferance. To be balanced in stand up fighting one should know the basics of ground fighting. Mainly how to avoid it.
I personally believe in just not playing with these guys. Take them out and do it quickly before they have a opportunity to take you down


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## rutherford (Feb 17, 2005)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> To be balanced in stand up fighting one should know the basics of ground fighting. Mainly how to avoid it.
> 
> I personally believe in just not playing with these guys. Take them out and do it quickly before they have a opportunity to take you down




Purely anecdotal, but I've never been hit while shooting in for the takedown.  If I've got a half-second to think before a fight, I decide immediately where my best chances lie.  If I want a ground fight, it's always gone that way.

Being patient, keeping distance, and shooting in at the right time has always been a very safe tactic.

I heartily encourage folks to train to account for this type of attacker.


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## Paul Genge (Feb 17, 2005)

Fights go to the ground for a number of reasons. Sometimes both parties end up there and in other times only one of the people involved go to the floor.

Going to the floor can be a result of being tripped or thrown, slipping up or tripping on something in your enviroment and as a matter of choice or necessity (I have heard that there is one filipino style where the first move is to go to the floor because it is designed for fighting on slippery and muddy surfaces, many styles of martial arts also have sutemi within their sylabus).

Learning to work in this enviroment is essential for anyone who is training skills for a self defence situation.  Unfortuantely the majority of schools that teach this kind of work either are sports basd or borrow their tactics from the sports enviroment.  If all you study is to grapple with an opponent it becomes very difficult to disengage from them when there are more than one person attacking you.

I have recently posted an article covering working from the ground against kicks. In it I cover principles used with the Russian System to survive what is a very dangerous situation.  There is also a video clip of the work in action.

I hope this is of some interest.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## OC Kid (Feb 17, 2005)

I did say one should know the basics of ground fighting. 

But Ill tell you this.When it comes to a street fight

 I am not going to tell you lets go outside unless Im planning on cracking you over the head from behind, or dont cross that line.unless when you do Im kicking you in the groin.

 When its time Im hitting you with beer bottles chairs, poking you in the eyes, I dont play, I fight to survive, If its a road rage Im not letting you out of the car.. Im plan on taking out the guy the fastest meanest most effective way possible.Then getting out of there period.


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## JAMJTX (Feb 17, 2005)

I never heard that "most fights go to the ground" until Brazilian Jujitsu got popular.  I don't know that to be a fact or that anyone can actually document that claim.

If it is true that most fights go to the ground, I am sure you will find that if you seperate fights that did and did not go to the ground, you will find that most of those that did go to the ground did not have a trained, experienced martial artists involved.

Even if most do go to the ground, you will find that none, or an extremely low percentage, start there.  The reason they go to the ground is that one participant thinks he will have an advantage by tackling or throwing the other and getting on top of him (which is not necessarily so).  Also involved here is the other participants inability to stay on his feet and properly defend himself.

In the street, the ground can be a dangerous place to be.  But it does not have to be. If properly trained, you can have an advantage on the ground - even if your opponent is still standing.  

But through proper training, you should be able to avoid going to the ground.


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## loki09789 (Feb 17, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> I never heard that "most fights go to the ground" until Brazilian Jujitsu got popular. I don't know that to be a fact or that anyone can actually document that claim.
> 
> .


Funny, now that you mention it, I don't remember all that much comment about most fights and the ground until BJJ and the UFC really came into the mainstream myself.  That may be because of where I was in training development and awareness of such things or it could be for other reasons.

I do know that as a SD focused artist, some ground skills are good to have, but like most things, too much can create 'bad habits'.

THere is a difference between being an art focused MA and a SD focused MA.  The Art focused can afford to specialize in a form of fighting that emphasizes one aspect of the whole.  An SD focused person needs to be able to do a little bit of everything, so to speak, but be able to all of that at a Black belt level of proficiency and intensity when it counts.

A Black Belt is just someone who can do White belt level skills with more consistency, power and confidence - thus creating more success/survivability when it counts IMO.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2005)

The ground is really the path of least resistance; so, when your control over the enviornment, range, and POSITIONS is compromised, the ground is naturaly where you end up. Once there you can panic and try to get back up so you can fight or you can relax and continue to fight with a feeling of relief. I must admit the latter eludes me even still, but I am training to be able to do so.
Sean


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## rutherford (Feb 17, 2005)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> I did say one should know the basics of ground fighting.
> 
> But Ill tell you this.When it comes to a street fight
> 
> ...




Sorry.  I believe perhaps you misunderstood my post, as it was _supporting_ what you said.  

Either that, or I'm misunderstanding you.


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## still learning (Feb 17, 2005)

Hello, Take a look on real street fighting videos of actual fights. Most of the time they do go to the ground,(not always). The above reasons from guys before me are all correct of the whys fights go to the ground. Expect it and train for ground fighting. Biting,scratching,pinching,eye gouging and so on. This is different from wrestling and Judo. Throws are the same though. 
 Real fighting is no rules, anything goes. Just keep fighting or lose. But no one likes to go to Jail , the Hospital or worst? 

  The best "win, win " is to walk away, if can?   .......be a winner, Aloha


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 17, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> I never heard that "most fights go to the ground" until Brazilian Jujitsu got popular. I don't know that to be a fact or that anyone can actually document that claim.
> 
> If it is true that most fights go to the ground, I am sure you will find that if you seperate fights that did and did not go to the ground, you will find that most of those that did go to the ground did not have a trained, experienced martial artists involved.
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstand the statement "Most fights go to the ground". That statement doesn't necessarily mean that one the combatants did a double-leg takedown on his opponent. 

Guess you didn't see many street fights before 1993.Usually the ground just ends up being where they end up. I can assure that most of them went to the ground unless someone got knocked out. It didn't look nice, neat and pretty like they do Post-Gracie, but there they went. It usually looked like two guys hugging each others neck and trying to pound each other with their free hand. There wasn't any talent or order too it, and they were usually just trying to stand up without getting hit. 

Sometimes someone got kicked or punched or hit by a beer bottle. I think the comment about "The path of least resistance" is probably the most accurate. 

I've had the dubious distinction of having been in a few pre-1993 (and a couple of post ones) street fights and watching a great deal more. Rolling around on the ground was pretty common from what I observed. Even then I was pretty good at maintaining my footing, but I still remember a couple of fights where I ended up on the ground with the guy, and not because we planned it.  I only remember a few actual fights where at least one party managed to stay on his feet, and that was fights where there was such a mismatch that one person dominated the other or knocked them out. If there was any kind of resistance at all, both parties invariably ended up on the ground. I still see that as being the case. 

That having been said, if you have some strong take down defense, some situational awareness, and some luck, you can avoid tripping over that garbage can, that water meter lid, or that garden fence in a street fight.


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## masherdong (Feb 25, 2005)

I would have to say that about 80% of all fights end up on the ground and that is because of both sides trying to throw off balance, timing, and rhythm.  This is why I love Kajukenbo because we incorporate Judo into our system and for our belt tests.  This way if I were to get into a fight (God forbid it) I would be able to handle myself on the ground.


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## safeeagle (Mar 26, 2005)

My feeling on this is that most fights that go to the ground, are between people who haven't been trained to fight. It's the safe way. What do boxers do to stop the punching they wrap up. Perhaps i'm being a little to simplistic on this matter.


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