# Ki Chuan Do



## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 8, 2009)

I'm checking out a Ki Chuan Do/Guided Chaos school on thuesday. From what I've read about it I like it a lot and I think it would compliment my WC greatly. I hope I won't be dissapointed...

What do you guys think of it? Would it benefit a WCer? Would love to hear from people who have experience in it.

This are some example of Ki Chuan Do:





 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHbUQYLjQsM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/user/mattkovsky


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## Sandstorm (Feb 8, 2009)

Whilst I am not familiar with this 'style' first hand, I do a very similar exercise in my classes to encourage people to understand the chaos of street combat. Hands-on sparring which is similar to that which you have posted, is, I believe, essential for anyone wanting to grasp what exactly being in a 'real' fight consists of. I think you will do well to attend and see what you think. Personally, I encourage such exercises, but do not let them interfere entirely with the art being taught. This, to me, is an exercise in reality checking. 

As to your direct question of 'will it help your WC? Well, I think you will be able to utilise some of the WC you have within this exercise, and that can only really be a good thing. Just don't think you can get away with trying to lock the arm of a strong assailant who just keeps pounding and swinging

Good luck with it.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 8, 2009)

I'm not a Wing Chun person anymore and I know little about Ki Chuan Do (but something in my memory is giving me a bad feeling and I think it has been discussed on MT before, but that could be wrong) 

But why not just train Wing Chun to better your Wing Chun instead of looking to other styles?


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 8, 2009)

> I'm not a Wing Chun person anymore and I know little about Ki Chuan Do (but something in my memory is giving me a bad feeling and I think it has been discussed on MT before, but that could be wrong)
> 
> But why not just train Wing Chun to better your Wing Chun instead of looking to other styles?


 
Notice that what I asked was not that if Ki Chuan Do will better my WC. Ofcourse only WC can better my WC. Infact what I was asking was if it would compliment it. It's probably becouse I chose poor wording in my question. What I meant with: Would KCD benefit my WC was; would KCD compliment my fighting system? Would it benefit me as a fighter/martial artist?

I say this becouse I consider WC my fighting method(more or less).



> Whilst I am not familiar with this 'style' first hand, I do a very similar exercise in my classes to encourage people to understand the chaos of street combat. Hands-on sparring which is similar to that which you have posted, is, I believe, essential for anyone wanting to grasp what exactly being in a 'real' fight consists of. I think you will do well to attend and see what you think. Personally, I encourage such exercises, but do not let them interfere entirely with the art being taught. This, to me, is an exercise in reality checking.
> 
> As to your direct question of 'will it help your WC? Well, I think you will be able to utilise some of the WC you have within this exercise, and that can only really be a good thing. Just don't think you can get away with trying to lock the arm of a strong assailant who just keeps pounding and swinging
> 
> Good luck with it.


 
Yes, I look forward in training it becouse of the things you mention. I wonder tho: do I neceserely have to change my WC to assimilate KCD concepts which I deeply agree with(as far as I read about them). What I want to do is just upgrade my fighting method in something yet more effective and realistic.

Does this make sense?


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## Sandstorm (Feb 8, 2009)

I personally think that this type of 'exercise' will benefit anyone from any style. It will show them what does/doesn't work effectively in that sort of situation. Please note that I stress the word 'exercise' as this is not training in Martial Arts IMO. It is opening the door to the real aspects of what can/does happen in a stret confrontation. Most are uncomfortable with this and don't wish their 'Arts' bubble to burst. I would much prefer to know what I am getting into in a real fight and be able to handle it as efficiently as possible with realism, than to start throwing fancy kicks or locks that end up turning me into an A&E statistic.

As to your question do I neceserely have to change my WC to assimilate KCD concepts, not at all. I believe that what this experience will do is show you what is and what isn't effective from the movements you have learned. Your Chi Sau exercises should give you a solid foundation of understanding body mechanics and positioning, as well as timing, speed and manipulation.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

Respect, and again, good luck to you.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 8, 2009)

Exactly! I absolutely agree. I'm mailing with the instructor right now and he sounds like a pretty smart and open-minded type of guy. I just hope he's good too


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## geezer (Feb 8, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1119466 said:
			
		

> ... I look forward in training it becouse of the things you mention. I wonder tho: do I neceserely have to change my WC to assimilate KCD concepts which I deeply agree with(as far as I read about them). What I want to do is just upgrade my fighting method in something yet more effective and realistic.
> 
> Does this make sense?



Sure, it makes perfect sense. I believe that the best of the combat-oriented WC/WT schools already include this kind of training. But, they can't give you the same chance to train with people from different backgrounds. And then, there's the benefit of getting an outside perspective from your trainers or coaches as well. At any rate it sounds like you've decided to give it a go. Keep us posted and let us know how it turns out.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 8, 2009)

> Sure, it makes perfect sense. I believe that the best of the combat-oriented WC/WT schools already include this kind of training. But, they can't give you the same chance to train with people from different backgrounds. And then, there's the benefit of getting an outside perspective from your trainers or coaches as well. At any rate it sounds like you've decided to give it a go. Keep us posted and let us know how it turns out.


 
Yes, acctualy I did allready decide. I would still love to hear from people who have experience in the art. I personaly haven't heard of it before yesterday.

And on a sidenote; to me this looks a bit Systemish(what do you think Si-Je?). Just that the instructor who has experience in both tells me that KCD focuses even less on techniques and more on sensitivety.

I will keep you guys informed. Can't wait till thuesday


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## profesormental (Feb 8, 2009)

Greetings.

My impression is that they have a good idea what to do, yet not HOW to do it.

Wing Chun focuses on HOW to do things, so if you remember your Wing Chun and do WHAT they instruct, you should have fun.

There are many situational drills in the book and their demos. High level execution comes from knowing HOW to do things, and their execution shows a lack of training there.

That doesn't mean that they don't get results, because they do.

That means that they teach you how to swim by throwing you in the water, and not by progressively teaching you correct swimming technique. You'll end up swimming in both instances, yet in one you'll swim much better.

Yet if you have good technique, you are free to learn from the drills and execute techniques with much more power, stability and structure, while adjusting to the situation more appropriately. Skill + Experience.

Have fun!

Juan M. Mercado


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 8, 2009)

interesting...So what would be the benefits you think to cross training ku chuan do?


Also do you think training White Crane Kung Fu would benefit the WCer?




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1119417 said:
			
		

> I'm checking out a Ki Chuan Do/Guided Chaos school on thuesday. From what I've read about it I like it a lot and I think it would compliment my WC greatly. I hope I won't be dissapointed...
> 
> What do you guys think of it? Would it benefit a WCer? Would love to hear from people who have experience in it.
> 
> ...


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## mook jong man (Feb 8, 2009)

I think the ground stuff and the weapons defences will benefit you a great deal . But the sensitivity exercise looks like very bad chi sau sparring with a high stance hence they seem to end up on the ground a lot .

 My honest opinion is that a good agressive Wing Chun man will blow straight through their centerline , they seem to do this constant slapping down of any hand that comes near them and when that doesn't work they immediately change to a circular strike and attack the outside , leaving a great gaping hole in their defence .

 To a person not trained in the intricacies of  Chi Sau their method would look very aggressive and dynamic , but too me all I see is holes in defence , no economy of movement , hands all over the place and no sticking . It really looks like they are trying to reinvent the Chi Sau wheel when its already been invented hundreds of years ago . 

Anyway you should already be doing aggressive Chi Sau sparring , one thing we used to do at our school was for both people to start off in Chi Sau sparring then at random times one person will break out of the mold and start throwing circular strikes , grabs or anything he wants to .

I guess what I am saying is that go there and learn the ground stuff , and the weapon defences but don't take too much notice of their sensitivity drill and their hand sparring method , in my opinion it is not as efficient as Wing Chun hand sparring .

 What I mean is by all means spar them , but stick to your Wing Chun methods don't try and copy their way . If you see something of theirs that you like , take it and put it through your Wing Chun filter and see if it fits in with our principles , if it doesn't can it be modified or tweaked a little bit so it does , if it can't then disregard it.


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 9, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> interesting...So what would be the benefits you think to cross training ku chuan do?
> 
> 
> Also do you think training White Crane Kung Fu would benefit the WCer?


 
Personally, no. For me, white crane was like a watered down version of wing chun

Any training is good (ie exercise etc), but if you are to go beyond your art, look for things that are missing in your wing chun (grappling, clinchwork, explosive long range kicks, sparring, etc) and look for arts that can help with that


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## futsaowingchun (Feb 9, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1119417 said:
			
		

> I'm checking out a Ki Chuan Do/Guided Chaos school on thuesday. From what I've read about it I like it a lot and I think it would compliment my WC greatly. I hope I won't be dissapointed...
> 
> What do you guys think of it? Would it benefit a WCer? Would love to hear from people who have experience in it.
> 
> ...




I have a good friend who studied Ki Chuan Do under Perkins. he got a belt belt from him. The system  was not designed to fight Martial artist,but to be able to defend your self from being a victim. I would say it will not help your Wing chun. My friend letter learned Wing Chun and it was nothing liked he learned.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 9, 2009)

Thanks for all the responses. Profesor, Mook; I understand what you guys are saying and I completely agree. And from a WC standpoint I also see holes in what they are doing. But I don't intend to forget my WC training when I do this I just want to explore this instinctive reactions concepts a bit. In the worse case scenerio I see this guys as people I'll be able to train my WC sensitivety with.

Again, I don't want to better my WC by doing this, but from what I've read about the art and discused with the instructor this is a very conceptual style and it's mostly built on principals. It's something that I think would better and traditional martial artist. Now in my case, we did alooot of Chi Sao in class. But what bothered me was; you do X technique against Y attack. Now that may very well be the very best response to that particular situation but when you're in a street fight(and if you've been in one you'll now what I'm saying) if you'll try to remember the technique for that attack your screwed. And yes I know WC has all the answers but to this day I haven't seen anybody perform a good WC technique(by my taste) against a realistic attack. Not even Emin not even my instructor. Note that this is just my personal experience from my training.

Now what I want to do with all this is to get in touch with my instinctual reactions and study more how much of WC can I realy perform in an realtively uncontroled eviroment. I have allready studied this with sparring friends and random attacks but go into a school that specialises in this is even better IMHO.



> I have a good friend who studied Ki Chuan Do under Perkins. he got a belt belt from him. The system was not designed to fight Martial artist,but to be able to defend your self from being a victim. I would say it will not help your Wing chun. My friend letter learned Wing Chun and it was nothing liked he learned.


 
Yes, I get the same feeling. This is also one of the reasons I'm checking this out as becouse as smart as WC is, to realy be able to use it in a chaotic street fight takes alot more training than most like to promote. And as other have noted I feel I don't realy have to let go of my WC to do all this. But I'll know more on thuesday.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 9, 2009)

Some of the training in the video I liked. I really like that padded room for close quarter type training. I am unsure about that roll type kick.

You might just check it out and see and if you can post about your experience.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 9, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Some of the training in the video I liked. I really like that padded room for close quarter type training. I am unsure about that roll type kick.
> 
> You might just check it out and see and if you can post about your experience.


 
Agreed on the padded room, that was something that caught my eye for my classes. I usually work in corners, but a fully enclosed small space like that is a great idea. As with anything, it does have it's issues and some of the stuff did look overly chaotic, but then, you have to allow for how you would react in ANY situation against any attack.

Again, please keep us updated on how the class went for you.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 10, 2009)

Does anyones practice Wing Chun for Chaotic sitituations. Do you guys practice preparing for an actual combat???


Do you guys design drills around different scenarios such as

Sparring Blind folded
Sparring in a dark room
Sparring in a small room like a bathroom
Sparring with one hand (only)
Sparring on the ground (Kneeling or sitting)
Sparring against Multiple opponents
Sparring up against a wall

An many other drills tp prepare you for utter chaos when in actual combat?





Sandstorm said:


> Agreed on the padded room, that was something that caught my eye for my classes. I usually work in corners, but a fully enclosed small space like that is a great idea. As with anything, it does have it's issues and some of the stuff did look overly chaotic, but then, you have to allow for how you would react in ANY situation against any attack.
> 
> Again, please keep us updated on how the class went for you.


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## geezer (Feb 10, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Does anyones practice Wing Chun for Chaotic sitituations. Do you guys practice preparing for an actual combat???
> 
> 
> Do you guys design drills around different scenarios such as
> ...


 
One such drill I participated in an Escrima class at an EBMAS seminar involved sitting down with your eyes shut while your "opponent" circled around you at an unknown range. When the instructor shouted "go", he attacked from any angle and range. At that moment you opened your eyes and had to defend yourself. It was tough.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 10, 2009)

At Ebmas we had some realistic training methods. But nothing spectacular. At my latest WC school the most realistic training was "hard" Chi Sao. I have allways trained as realisticly as possible in my "free" time tho.

Anyway thats one of the main reasons I went to visit this KCD school. And the first lesson is behind me. I have mixed feelings about the class but I can't realy judge on my first lesson. What I can say is that they seem to be a pretty no-boolsheet type of class which I like. The people there are mostly bodyguards, cops or military. I was the youngest guy there.

I liked the way they train against multiple attackers. I also liked the way my WC handled in this kind of training. Considering the time the guys there are training their Contact flow(which is basicly a bit non-technical Chi Sao where everything goes) they are pretty good. It turns out this has been in my hometown for a good month. Another interesting thing is that they hardly teach techniques they only tell you which are the primary targets you should be focused on and tell you the basic tactics like directness, simplicity, flow and nearest weapon to nearest target. WC basicly just a bit diffrent execution.

I get the feeling that I won't be getting technicaly better from this but I feel this kind of training is a very good method to find out what works for my from my WC training and what doesn't. I also think this will help my flow and spontaneus reactions.

One interesting thing I noticed was diffrence in power generation; they seem to get their power from dropping(you drop your weight on the fron leg while hitting) instead of the WC way where we use body structure/alignment from a relatively natural and upstanding position.

In any case I can't realy judge from my first lesson. I decided I'll stick for a month and then I'll be able to decide better whether this kind of training is realy what I want/need.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 10, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Does anyones practice Wing Chun for Chaotic sitituations. Do you guys practice preparing for an actual combat???


 
Hi Yoshiyahu, and thank you for the questions. I will try and answer as clearly as I can

Wing Chun as the art form, no. Most of the centreline attack and defence drills are practical, but a fight is not a simple case of mechanics, unlike performing techiniques. The techniques help us to understand the mechanics of the human body so we can utilise as much of what we've learned as possible given the circumstances. A fight is not a drill. It isn't organised sparring. It is brutal, quick, completely unpredictable and yes, down right chaotic. An 'art' cannot prepare us for that IMO. What an art CAN do, is give us the basics with which we manipulate and use to our advantage, as well as hopefully a better level of stamina than our aggressor, a better understanding of how to move within the chaos and a level of conditioning (mind and body) that will hopefully allow us to take the situation at hand, control it as best we can and overcome it.

Now, in answer to your questions......

Do you guys design drills around different scenarios such as

Sparring Blind folded       Yes 
Sparring in a dark room    No, due to A) using the above and B) as this is done in a class environment
Sparring in a small room like a bathroom no, but I like the idea of the small padded room as shown in the footage. I also encourage people to compete so they feel under pressure in an enclosed environment
Sparring with one hand (only)    absolutely, yes
Sparring on the ground (Kneeling or sitting)   again, absolutely, at all ranges from all angles/levels
Sparring against Multiple opponents     most definately
Sparring up against a wall   again, yes, as well as the aforementioned corner work

An many other drills tp prepare you for utter chaos when in actual combat?

Any drill that may help is one that I will employ in my classes. Various forms of armed/unarmed/multiples and any other combination that pressure tests the individual and gives them at least some small incling of what it's like to be in such a hectic scenario without luxuries, comforts, security etc etc. You're in that fight, you're in it alone and that's the best way IMO to prepare yourself. Take away any and every security. 
My hope at the end of each session, is that the students walk away from that class and never have to use any of what they've learned, but that they can feel A) they may have some realistic chance of survival and B) the drills are so potent and the reality of street conflict so brutal, they steer clear of ever getting into such a situation in the first place.

This element of the class is not the martial arts. It isn't the execution of perfect technique or form. This portion of the class is for self defence, and to me, there is a huge difference.
I hope this has come through clearly enough? and thank you once again for asking.


ERU, it  sounds ok. I wasn't sure what you could expect as I have not been to their classes or anything. I am very familiar with Geoff Thompsons 'Animal Day' etc and they are pressure tests. Keep at it, as you say, and see how it goes. 
Good luck


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 11, 2009)

> I also think this will help my flow and spontaneus reactions.


 

Did your WC school teach you guys to be more rigid? Or did you guys learn flow as well as routine techniques?

My Sifu always emphasize WC has a flow when sparring and in combat. He always said to use your flow!










			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1120905 said:
			
		

> At Ebmas we had some realistic training methods. But nothing spectacular. At my latest WC school the most realistic training was "hard" Chi Sao. I have allways trained as realisticly as possible in my "free" time tho.
> 
> Anyway thats one of the main reasons I went to visit this KCD school. And the first lesson is behind me. I have mixed feelings about the class but I can't realy judge on my first lesson. What I can say is that they seem to be a pretty no-boolsheet type of class which I like. The people there are mostly bodyguards, cops or military. I was the youngest guy there.
> 
> ...


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 11, 2009)

Sparring Blind folded  nope because this does not simulate any real street event. If you are blinded, you will be feeling pain etc and will react differently
Sparring in a dark room  same reason, but your sensitivity in chi sao will give you better reactions than most
Sparring in a small room like a bathroom  we have many small kwoons where space is a premium. Practising in a small crowded area is better than training one on one in a tiny room
Sparring with one hand (only)  yes. But again, in a real fight, if your hand is broke, chopped off etc, you wont react the same way
Sparring on the ground (Kneeling or sitting)  yes hence the need for BJJ
Sparring against Multiple opponents  all the time, but you must know your limits. No matter how good you are, numbers always beats skill. Personally I have fought 12 guys in a brawl and come out alive, but most of it was luck
Sparring up against a wall  yes all the time. Kevin Chan is one of the best Ive seen at dealing with this and usually does demos where he allows one of his instructors to push him into a wall with any force they like in any position they like and he destroys them

Yoshiatsu, you seem to want to prepare for the worst. What with your defence against Mace and your recent post on the need for wing chun being tested in the ring etc
Are you a pessimist? You cant live your life in too much fear. ***** happens. It just does. You can try to prepare for it, but life will just chuck worser stuff at you!


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 11, 2009)

> Did your WC school teach you guys to be more rigid? Or did you guys learn flow as well as routine techniques?
> 
> My Sifu always emphasize WC has a flow when sparring and in combat. He always said to use your flow!


 
No, we were thought to relax and flow. Looking at videos on youtube I would say we were quite relaxed a flowing. It depends on the people too I guess. But I'm a skinny SOB so I don't realy have an option to go rigid.

We were thought all that but we never sparred at class. We did flowing drills and Tai Chi pushhands as my instructor was pretty knowledgable on Tai Chi too.



> Yoshiatsu, you seem to want to prepare for the worst. What with your defence against Mace and your recent post on the need for wing chun being tested in the ring etc
> Are you a pessimist? You cant live your life in too much fear. ***** happens. It just does. You can try to prepare for it, but life will just chuck worser stuff at you!


 
Yp, thats true.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 14, 2009)

_No, I don't mean to seem negative. I asked questions about things I either think about or have trained in. To see how others respond. I like to hear others imput as well. So I asked question and prying questions to get others to go into detail on their thoughts or opinions on any given subject._

_The mace defense was to see if anyone else has every heard of developing tolerance against pepper spray. I guess the answer was no there. As for WC being tested in the ring...I think thats a positive. I know you may disagree. But its a fighting art. In a fight we should be able to adapt to any given situtation. If we can not adapt we should try to practice to learn how to adapt. My main opinion is most WC guys only use one percent of their WC in the ring. Such as chain punch,front kick and maybe a neck grab to take down. But the other techniques like basic pak sau and bong sau and even gan sau are not used. I was woundering why. I think ring figthers have an added advantage. They use their kung fu on regular basis. No my friend I am not living in fear...thanks for your concern though. I am sorry if I come off that way. I just am person who see's WC for combat. An how to apply it in the most advantageou ways is one my principals. I try to find topics that deal with using WC in real fights and try to think of scenario's I have experience or heard about from others._

_I hope thats okay with you Kamon?_


*Kamon Guy*: 





> Yoshiatsu, you seem to want to prepare for the worst. What with your defence against Mace and your recent post on the need for wing chun being tested in the ring etc
> 
> Are you a pessimist? You cant live your life in too much fear. ***** happens. It just does. You can try to prepare for it, but life will just chuck worser stuff at you!


 




Kamon Guy said:


> Sparring Blind folded  nope because this does not simulate any real street event. If you are blinded, you will be feeling pain etc and will react differently
> Sparring in a dark room  same reason, but your sensitivity in chi sao will give you better reactions than most
> Sparring in a small room like a bathroom  we have many small kwoons where space is a premium. Practising in a small crowded area is better than training one on one in a tiny room
> Sparring with one hand (only)  yes. But again, in a real fight, if your hand is broke, chopped off etc, you wont react the same way
> ...


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