# UFC 193



## Dinkydoo

Who is looking forward to this?

I have an extremely busy day but I'm really looking forward to sitting down to watch this at 3am tomorrow morning. 

Rousey's Weigh In trash talk is particularly interesting....are we further heading down the route of WWE dramatisation of the competition or is it something more: fear of losing her title, a particularly painful weight cut...?

I can't wait to see Joanna Jedrzejczyk in action again and this has to be the fight of the night for me - a real strikers fighter and great to watch.


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## Tez3

I probably won't watch it live, too tired, spent most of last night trying to phone friends in Paris. I don't know whether I'm bothered anyway, as you say it's getting more and more WWE.


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## Dinkydoo

Hope they are all okay Tez, thoughts are with anyone over there and those who have friends/family staying in Paris right now. 

I know Rousey likes to play up to her adopted title as 'the best in the world', but that seemed uncharacteristic for her. I think a combination of being embarrassed that Holly didn't even flinch, a horrible cut (she wasn't looking good, even for a weigh in) and a bit of giddy nervousness got the better of her. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt for that once, but I can't stand the WWE stuff Dana has been pushing for. It attracts a wider audience I guess and it's debatable as to whether it helps UFC grow further or not, but I'm definitely not a fan of it. I don't mind fighting talk but it's easily overdone

I have a day of snowboarding with friends before a few drinks later on. The plan is to watch the event at mines if we're not too worn out!


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## Dirty Dog

Frankly, the smack talk and inherent lack of respect for ones opponents has pretty much soured me on the UFC.


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## Buka

I can't wait!


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## drop bear

Our coach is in it. So the team has set up a local pub to show it and we are all going down to make a day of it.


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## JowGaWolf

Dinkydoo said:


> Who is looking forward to this?
> 
> I have an extremely busy day but I'm really looking forward to sitting down to watch this at 3am tomorrow morning.
> 
> Rousey's Weigh In trash talk is particularly interesting....are we further heading down the route of WWE dramatisation of the competition or is it something more: fear of losing her title, a particularly painful weight cut...?
> 
> I can't wait to see Joanna Jedrzejczyk in action again and this has to be the fight of the night for me - a real strikers fighter and great to watch.


This is the one the things that I don't like about boxing and UFC.  I understand that it's a marketing stunt, but I think it's not necessary.and it sends out the wrong message about fighting in general.  People aren't dogs so there's no need to face them off like that to get them upset.  The best fights are going to be the ones where emotions of anger aren't in the in the way and the fighters are focused on the task at hand.  I rather fight someone who is angry at me than someone who is focused.  I can always count on an angry person to make flawed decisions when attacking me with anger.  A focused person isn't going to do make those mistakes, a focused person.

I look at anger like this: "I'm not angry at my enemy because that would require me to care enough about him to feel anger.  I will treat my enemy like an ant that I crush, void of emotion and concern; having only the focus of crushing the ant."  To me people are the most dangerous and more incredible when they are focused.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Should be a really good UFC event!


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## Brian R. VanCise

drop bear said:


> Our coach is in it. So the team has set up a local pub to show it and we are all going down to make a day of it.



Will your coach be in the prelims or main card and what is his name?


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## Tony Dismukes

I try to totally ignore the hype and trash talk and just watch the fights to study the fighter's technique when I have a chance. I don't have cable, so I usually don't get to see the fights until they end up on DVD or online.


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## Tez3

The timings of the UFC fight nights in the US are never good for us, the occasional European ones are okay but they seem to be rare now.


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## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Will your coach be in the prelims or main card and what is his name?



The pre prelims. His name is Anton zafir.

Won't show on foxtell for some insaine reason. You need fight pass.

Anton Zafir

But heaps of cool Aussies in this one.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Okay thanks,  here is hoping he wins and has continued success!


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## Tez3

UFC here is on BT Sport which some pay for though I don't as I have internet from the same provider, all the fights are shown usually probably because there's not much else on during the very early morning.


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## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Okay thanks,  here is hoping he wins and has continued success!



Yeah ditto.

He is doing this on no notice. The guy who was supposed to fight pulled out injured.

It seems interesting. Everybody has got together and are helping each other out with warm up sessions and the like. So worth it for him just to train with some top guys.


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## elder999

A few things....

My girl (Rousey) is crazy-as in psycho. No one wants to believe that, but time will prove me right. I'm rooting for her.....

The WWE stuff--don't believe all the hype-they actually get bonuses from Dana for delivering that ****....and it wasn't so much....

My home girl (Holly Holm) is coached by my friends-I don't think she has more than a puncher's chance, but might have with another four fights under her belt-but she's got good stuff. I'm rooting for her too!

(Holly Holm developed knockout power in both legs pretty quickly, and she's a good boxer, and has proven to be able to fight takedowns well- I think she might have a prayer of a chance, but that's about it.)

(Ronda Rousey can't *stand* to lose-which is part of where "champions" are defined: how well they pickup from losing. It will be interesting to see her finally lose her UFC title, if it ever happens.....)


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## Tez3

Are you saying that there are people who believe all the smack talk in the UFC?


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## kuniggety

I'm really looking forward to the fight. It's been interesting seeing Ronda transition to more striking.

As for trash talk, I've never been a fan. I like seeing fighters give each other a hug... Whether BJJ, MT, etc... It shows more respect for each other as fighters. They're brothers/sisters in the ring.


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## Brian R. VanCise

So far the fights have been great!!!


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## Buka

As for trash talk, it's not part of what I do personally, but done right, I find it almost an art form.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Uriah Hall stepping into the ring next...


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## Brian R. VanCise

Wow!  That is all I can say with the ending to this UFC!!!


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## Hanzou

Greg Jackson does it again. Holly Holm was a surgeon in that ring, and Rousey got too cocky with her "striking skills".

YTH did I stop betting on these kind of matches?


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## Buka

God, I love the fight game!  Wow, just wow.


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## Hanzou

She deserved to lose.


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## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> The timings of the UFC fight nights in the US are never good for us, the occasional European ones are okay but they seem to be rare now.



Yep. Set my alarm to see what turned out to be a bloody fight and woke just after it finished. Thankfully the people I know that are in Paris, are okay.


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## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> She deserved to lose.



Man that must have riled her up even more.


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## Buka

As we all hear, head kicks never work in a fight.


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## Drose427

Rhonda was smart to not just charge in, but just didnt have the striking experience to do what she needed to do.

Its incredibly hard to get proper takedowns on someone with good movement as she learned

Part of it falls to her coaches for letting her think her striking was up to par, and telling her shes doing good in between the rounds.

Thats being a cheerleader and not a coach


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## Tony Dismukes

Drose427 said:


> Rhonda was smart to not just charge in, but just didnt have the striking experience to do what she needed to do.
> 
> Its incredibly hard to get proper takedowns on someone with good movement as she learned
> 
> Part of it falls to her coaches for letting her think her striking was up to par, and telling her shes doing good in between the rounds.
> 
> Thats being a cheerleader and not a coach


Yeah,her coach was going on about how she could beat a womens world boxing champion in a boxing match, which is just delusional. Rousey is a world-class grappler and her striking has come along in the last couple of years, but she doesn't have high-level pro boxing skills.


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## kuniggety

To be fair, I thought Rousey was doing pretty good in the first round. She went in for a couple of failed take downs but she landed about as many solid blows as Holly. She just straight up dropped her guard in that second round and got rocked because of it.


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## drop bear

Drose427 said:


> Rhonda was smart to not just charge in, but just didnt have the striking experience to do what she needed to do.
> 
> Its incredibly hard to get proper takedowns on someone with good movement as she learned
> 
> Part of it falls to her coaches for letting her think her striking was up to par, and telling her shes doing good in between the rounds.
> 
> Thats being a cheerleader and not a coach



Coaching walks kind of a fine line.


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## Buka

elder999 said:


> A few things....
> 
> My girl (Rousey) is crazy-as in psycho. No one wants to believe that, but time will prove me right. I'm rooting for her.....
> 
> The WWE stuff--don't believe all the hype-they actually get bonuses from Dana for delivering that ****....and it wasn't so much....
> 
> My home girl (Holly Holm) is coached by my friends-I don't think she has more than a puncher's chance, but might have with another four fights under her belt-but she's got good stuff. I'm rooting for her too!
> 
> (Holly Holm developed knockout power in both legs pretty quickly, and she's a good boxer, and has proven to be able to fight takedowns well- I think she might have a prayer of a chance, but that's about it.)
> 
> (Ronda Rousey can't *stand* to lose-which is part of where "champions" are defined: how well they pickup from losing. It will be interesting to see her finally lose her UFC title, if it ever happens.....)



Elder, you know the Rousey family. How much is this going to mess up Ronda's head? Is she going to come back stronger, or fall apart?


And what I find fun to think about is what the promoters are going to do...... 
Will Holm fight somebody else before she meets Rousey again?
Where does this leave Miesha Tate?
Where does it leave Chris Cyborg?
If Holm DOES fight someone else before Rousey, and loses, how does that affect a rematch with Ronda?
Can Ronda actually beat Holm? If they fight again and Rousey loses again - is that the end of her career?
What about her movie roles, like that remake of Roadhouse, think the producers feel like throwing any money at that puppy now that she got her butt whooped. Unless, of course, Holm was a fellow bouncer. 

Oh, I so love this stuff.


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## Tony Dismukes

I do think this is good for the sport, in that it proves the women's division has a deeper bench of world-class fighters than just Rousey.


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## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> She deserved to lose.


She should have used her energy to stay focus on the fight instead of showing an attitude.


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## JowGaWolf

Buka said:


> As we all hear, head kicks never work in a fight.


Her recovery was bad and as a result that kick.


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## JowGaWolf

kuniggety said:


> To be fair, I thought Rousey was doing pretty good in the first round. She went in for a couple of failed take downs but she landed about as many solid blows as Holly. She just straight up dropped her guard in that second round and got rocked because of it.


  I agree.  The best defense in the world is "hands up".


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## JowGaWolf

Buka said:


> As we all hear, head kicks never work in a fight.





JowGaWolf said:


> I rather fight someone who is angry at me than someone who is focused. I can always count on an angry person to make flawed decisions when attacking me with anger. A focused person isn't going to do make those mistakes


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## JowGaWolf

Never get back to your feet like Rhonda does at
4:32
6:26
8:57
She made some beginner's errors when getting off the ground.  She should also learn how to kick and sweep.  Sweeps would have been perfect to use against Holly evasive movements.


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## Tony Dismukes

JowGaWolf said:


> Never get back to your feet like Rhonda does at
> 4:32
> 6:26
> 8:57
> She made some beginner's errors when getting off the ground.  She should also learn how to kick and sweep.  Sweeps would have been perfect to use against Holly evasive movements.


Thanks for finding that video. Holms executed her game plan perfectly. Very impressive.

I'm sure Ronda knows how to get back to her feet correctly, but by that point in the fight she was already somewhat concussed (not to mention frustrated). She hasn't had to deal with taking those kind of shots before in her career. It takes a fair amount of experience to be able to maintain perfect technique after you've eaten a bunch of hard shots to the head.


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## elder999

Buka said:


> Elder, you know the Rousey family. How much is this going to mess up Ronda's head? Is she going to come back stronger, or fall apart?



She's likely really depressed-and she'll be out for a while-rumor is a broken jaw, and she's got movie work in the next year, anyway....

How long she'll stay depressed? Hard to say-if she watches that fight more than twice, she could go on a carb and booze binge...she had a few opportunities to win, if she'd been fighting smarter.......I dunno.....If she stays in MMA, she'll make some changes in her coaching, for sure: she had no business boxing a boxer, but that's about what she tried to do. She's loyal, but her mom is right: Edmond Tarvedian is trouble, and in trouble-there's other people in that camp who could do a better job, frankly......

And, oddly enough, she pretty much predicted how the fight would go:






All props to Holly Holm and Greg Jackson, though-*this* is how you stick to a plan.


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## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> Never get back to your feet like Rhonda does at
> 4:32
> 6:26
> 8:57
> She made some beginner's errors when getting off the ground.  She should also learn how to kick and sweep.  Sweeps would have been perfect to use against Holly evasive movements.



I find it very odd that with all her years in MMA, and her ability to train with the best in the business, that Rousey throws almost no kicks. Was her intention to just use boxing and Judo for her striking/standup?

Holes comes from a boxing background, and she developed some very good kicking ability (thanks to Jackson and Winklejohn), so what's the deal?


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## elder999

Hanzou said:


> I find it very odd that with all her years in MMA, and her ability to train with the best in the business, that Rousey throws almost no kicks. Was her intention to just use boxing and Judo for her striking/standup?



You ever seen her throw more than a knee?

'Nuthin; odd about that-it's a skillset she's not comfortable with, or she  doesn't feel she needs for MMA....not like it would  have made any difference here....




Hanzou said:


> Holes comes from a boxing background, and she developed some very good kicking ability (thanks to Jackson and Winklejohn), so what's the deal?



Winklejohn has been Holly's boxing coach for her entire career....the transition to kickboxer was facilitated by this.


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## JowGaWolf

Tony Dismukes said:


> Thanks for finding that video. Holms executed her game plan perfectly. Very impressive.
> 
> I'm sure Ronda knows how to get back to her feet correctly, but by that point in the fight she was already somewhat concussed (not to mention frustrated). She hasn't had to deal with taking those kind of shots before in her career. It takes a fair amount of experience to be able to maintain perfect technique after you've eaten a bunch of hard shots to the head.


 I got nervous every time I saw her move her head forward when she was getting off the ground. It reminded me of this video




That guy getting hit like that is what made our school add a new drill to our training.  How to get up without the face punched or kick.  For our system the head always moves away from the attacker when getting up.  As for turning around, one should always do it as if an attack is already on it's way to face.  This has to almost be reflexive so that it becomes a natural part of turning around.

Holm also shows off a good reverse punch.  She actually leads with the reverse punch. She would fire a couple of lead hand jabs to make Rousey pay attention to the lead hand.  Once Rousey was focused on the lead hand, Holm would fire a reverse punch first and then follow up with the lead hand.  Now if I can only find that post where someone said that the reverse punch was useless 

I was surprise to see Rousey with such bad foot work. It was more unstable than I thought it would be, so I went to see what type of foot work training she did. Now I understand why her footwork is bad.  None of that footwork training she was doing in the video translates into the footwork that is done when fighting.





This would have been better training for less money.


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## Tony Dismukes

Hanzou said:


> I find it very odd that with all her years in MMA, and her ability to train with the best in the business, that Rousey throws almost no kicks. Was her intention to just use boxing and Judo for her striking/standup?



Kicking doesn't really fit into what has been Rousey's gameplan so far, which is to bull-rush her opponent in order to get the clinch.



JowGaWolf said:


> I got nervous every time I saw her move her head forward when she was getting off the ground. It reminded me of this video
> 
> That guy getting hit like that is what made our school add a new drill to our training. How to get up without the face punched or kick. For our system the head always moves away from the attacker when getting up. As for turning around, one should always do it as if an attack is already on it's way to face. This has to almost be reflexive so that it becomes a natural part of turning around.



Standing up safely is the second thing I teach new students. (The first being how to fall safely.) As I said, I'm sure Ronda knows the right way to do it, but a lot of things fall apart when you're concussed and frustrated. Especially since standing up while staying safe from punches isn't part of the Olympic Judo core skillset that she grew up practicing.



JowGaWolf said:


> Holm also shows off a good reverse punch. She actually leads with the reverse punch.



Kind of standard when fighting opposite leads, but she executed it beautifully.



JowGaWolf said:


> I was surprise to see Rousey with such bad foot work.



A lot of that was Holm _making_ her look bad.  Against a lesser opponent it wouldn't have shown up nearly so much. Fighting someone with really good evasive footwork is frustrating. Doing so while getting repeatedly punched hard in the face is extremely frustrating. That sort of thing really exposes any gaps in your training.

The ladder drill in that video is reasonably common for boxers, I believe. It's not so much an example of how to move in a fight as it is an exercise for developing agility and light feet. Kind of like jumping rope.


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## Hanzou

Tony Dislikes said:


> Standing up safely is the second thing I teach new students. (The first being how to fall safely.) As I said, I'm sure Ronda knows the right way to do it, but a lot of things fall apart when you're concussed and frustrated. Especially since standing up while staying safe from punches isn't part of the Olympic Judo core skillset that she grew up practicing.



What's that old saying? You get punched in the face as a Black Belt, you instantly become a Brown Belt? You get punched in the face again, and you instantly become a Purple belt?

I think by the end of that fight, Ronda had made it all the way back to White belt.


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## JowGaWolf

When I ran track, I did agility exercises that were similar to the movements of running the hurdles. When I played basketball I did agility exercises that were similar to the movements that a basketball player uses.  This was the same for tennis, soccer, lacrosse, and kung fu. Agility isn't a general skill set. The agility that a soccer play had is not the same agility that a basketball player. Agility is specific to the movement being used and the muscle group that creates the movement.  A person can do those ladder drills all day and never improve the footwork agility in fighting. 
With agility you have to train the movement that you are going to use in fighting.  
Train the agility for the ladder and you'll only be good at those ladder drills.  
Besides being light on your feet isn't always a good thing in fighting.  Quick feet are not the same as light feet.


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## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> What's that old saying? You get punched in the face as a Black Belt, you instantly become a Brown Belt? You get punched in the face again, and you instantly become a Purple belt?
> 
> I think by the end of that fight, Ronda had made it all the way back to White belt.


she did the wrong training for the task. Her loss makes sense when I look at clips from her training.  None of he sparring partners were mobile like holm.


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## kuniggety

I'm not saying anyone here is doing it but it's easy to judge someone's performance/where they screwed up/how they could've trained better/etc when it wasn't you in the fight. Hindsight is usually 20/20. I'm sure she's pointing out all of the same things to herself. I do the same things... I finish a roll and I think back to the various escapes (as an example) that my opponent did and what I could've done to shut it down. At the time though my mind was obviously somewhere else. All I know is that Ronda is a world class athlete who assuredly would knock me the hell out even if I am a man with more weight/muscle on him.


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## Tez3

This is the type of result that makes many 'supporter's of WMMA a bit uneasy. I've had loads of comments this weekend with people thinking it was a bit hard for a female fight. It's where reality clashes with ideals lol. Many support women fighting pro rules seeing it as equality, that women should do what they want but when it comes down to a brutal KO they baulk and start saying 'well, I don't really like seeing women bashed up' even my own instructor says that. I can see their point to a certain extent I suppose, we get people in the gym who are reluctant to spar with women or try to actually hit them, they learn of course. it's an upbringing thing, not all bad of course, men don't hit girls and girls don't hit anyone.
Fights that are mostly Judo/BJJ are usually enjoyed as it appears less brutal, more 'suitable for women', KO's and blood etc are less palatable for some.
I've only seen the clip of the KO, haven't had time to watch the fight so can't comment on it, will get around to watching it though.


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## punisher73

Rousey has been one dimensional since she started, but very good at what she did.  The UFC has hand fed her opponents to build the hype.  This is why many people have been saying that Rousey has been ducking Santos, that she wouldn't be able to handle someone of almost equal size and having good striking power. 

I am also against the UFC "instant rematch" approach in cases like this.  I understand it sometimes when the fight is very close, but she got owned the entire fight.


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## JowGaWolf

kuniggety said:


> I'm not saying anyone here is doing it but it's easy to judge someone's performance/where they screwed up/how they could've trained better/etc when it wasn't you in the fight. Hindsight is usually 20/20. I'm sure she's pointing out all of the same things to herself. I do the same things... I finish a roll and I think back to the various escapes (as an example) that my opponent did and what I could've done to shut it down. At the time though my mind was obviously somewhere else. All I know is that Ronda is a world class athlete who assuredly would knock me the hell out even if I am a man with more weight/muscle on him.


Somethings in relation to training to fight doesn't require hindsight.  In the video that someone posted Rousey said in an interview what she thought her opponent would try to do to win.  So that's not hind site and it came from her.  I made a statement before the fight even happened. That I would rather fight someone who is angry at me than someone who is focused on beating me.  Rousey even stated that her opponent would try to get in her head and kick her in the head.  You don't have to be a world class fighter to understand the mechanics and strategies of fighting.  There are many boxing coaches and UFC coaches who aren't world class fighters, but they train world class fighters and they do a good job at it.  Don't sell yourself short on your ability to analyze a fight or the effectiveness of training methods as they relate to fighting.


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## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> This is the type of result that makes many 'supporter's of WMMA a bit uneasy. I've had loads of comments this weekend with people thinking it was a bit hard for a female fight. It's where reality clashes with ideals lol. Many support women fighting pro rules seeing it as equality, that women should do what they want but when it comes down to a brutal KO they baulk and start saying 'well, I don't really like seeing women bashed up' even my own instructor says that. I can see their point to a certain extent I suppose, we get people in the gym who are reluctant to spar with women or try to actually hit them, they learn of course. it's an upbringing thing, not all bad of course, men don't hit girls and girls don't hit anyone.
> Fights that are mostly Judo/BJJ are usually enjoyed as it appears less brutal, more 'suitable for women', KO's and blood etc are less palatable for some.
> I've only seen the clip of the KO, haven't had time to watch the fight so can't comment on it, will get around to watching it though.


The fight itself didn't seem brutal to me. I've seen worse in terms of women fighting and bashing each other up.  There were good shots in the fight.  I'll actually use the fight as a training tool for students, because it highlights some of the things that we train in, but the students don't take as serious. For example footwork and stances.


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## elder999

elder999 said:


> She's likely really depressed-and she'll be out for a while-rumor is a broken jaw, and she's got movie work in the next year, anyway....
> 
> How long she'll stay depressed? Hard to say-if she watches that fight more than twice, she could go on a carb and booze binge...she had a few opportunities to win, if she'd been fighting smarter.......I dunno.....If she stays in MMA, she'll make some changes in her coaching, for sure: she had no business boxing a boxer, but that's about what she tried to do. She's loyal, but her mom is right: Edmond Tarvedian is trouble, and in trouble-there's other people in that camp who could do a better job, frankly......
> 
> And, oddly enough, she pretty much predicted how the fight would go:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All props to Holly Holm and Greg Jackson, though-*this* is how you stick to a plan.



To be completely fair, with a night to think more about it, Ronda's faced some pretty depressing losses in the past-and gone on to compete at an elite level again. She's got a lot going on, and, even without returning to MMA, she'll be fine.....


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## Dinkydoo

Late to rejoining my own thread: 

What a victory for Holmes, after the first 30 seonds I said to friends that if Rousey continues to chase after HH in this fashion that it would not end well for her. The bull-rush and takedown tactic did not work and HH's movement and boxing, as you'd expect, was really good. 

I'm not sure where Rousey goes from here, her standup is (going on that showing) much further off HH than I thought it was. If she's to reclaim her title from Holmes then her striking and  gameplan will need to seriously improve.


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## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> The fight itself didn't seem brutal to me. I've seen worse in terms of women fighting and bashing each other up.  There were good shots in the fight.  I'll actually use the fight as a training tool for students, because it highlights some of the things that we train in, but the students don't take as serious. For example footwork and stances.



It wasn't brutal, I've seen worse too, a friend of mine broke her opponents leg. I've been supporting and promoting women's MMA for many years and this is an attitude I come across a lot, along with the one that women's MMA can't possibly be as good as men's. :-(


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## Tony Dismukes

Nice breakdown by Firas Zahabi of how Holm was able to defend against Rousey's clinch:


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## kuniggety

Tony Dismukes said:


> Nice breakdown by Firas Zahabi of how Holm was able to defend against Rousey's clinch:



"You're going to see a boxer throw a judoka here." For some reason that line cracked me up. It was an awesome breakdown of the fight. Strikers take note.


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## Tony Dismukes

Part of why it's hard to stay the champion in any fight sport for too long is that once you are the champion you have the collective intelligence of coaches and fighters all over the world working to figure out the weaknesses in your game. Rousey has been working to broaden her skillset, but fundamentally she's been working the same approach for her entire fight career and it was inevitable that someone would eventually figure out how to counter it.


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## Tez3

Ronda Rousey’s Head Coach Edmond Tarverdyan Finally Speaks, & Gives A Shocking Take On The Fight

What are people's thoughts on this?


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## elder999

Tez3 said:


> Ronda Rousey’s Head Coach Edmond Tarverdyan Finally Speaks, & Gives A Shocking Take On The Fight
> 
> What are people's thoughts on this?



What's telling is that he's her principle striking coach, not just her "Head Coach."

He's taught her how to throw punches, but he hasn't really taught her how to box- as long as she was fighting MMArtists, other grapplers, and lower-tier kickboxers, it fit in with her skillset and game plan: she could go straight in and bull over an opponent. She's never displayed evasive movement, never cut off the ring, never circled-and never had to. She goes straight in, and most people have just stood there......

...and Edmond's gotta go.


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## EddieCyrax

Tez3 said:


> Ronda Rousey’s Head Coach Edmond Tarverdyan Finally Speaks, & Gives A Shocking Take On The Fight
> 
> What are people's thoughts on this?


Not sure what fight he was watching....


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## JowGaWolf

"“The game plan was pressing,” Tarverdyan said. “We knew Holly Holm was going to keep the distance. So we had to feint and get inside and pressure the right way so we can get on the side of the cage."
Horrible plan.  Do people go into a fight with only 1 plan?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> Ronda Rousey’s Head Coach Edmond Tarverdyan Finally Speaks, & Gives A Shocking Take On The Fight
> 
> What are people's thoughts on this?


Tarverdyan is a delusional idiot. Ronda's mom has been wanting Ronda to fire him and she's right.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tony Dismukes said:


> Tarverdyan is a delusional idiot. Ronda's mom has been wanting Ronda to fire him and she's right.


Her mom was a judo champion as well.  Her mom is very intelligent, she should have listed to her.




In another interview her mom said that the reason Ronda was so good at Judo was because she used to take her to different places (gyms).  Her mom seems to have a good sense of what fighting is about.
Her mom fighting





Her mom explains her comments about the coach. It's funny how what she stated is exactly what happened during the fight. I hope Rhonda will listen to her mom now.


----------



## Tames D

Hanzou said:


> What's that old saying? You get punched in the face as a Black Belt, you instantly become a Brown Belt? You get punched in the face again, and you instantly become a Purple belt?
> 
> I think by the end of that fight, Ronda had made it all the way back to White belt.


You really believe that???


----------



## Tames D

JowGaWolf said:


> she did the wrong training for the task. Her loss makes sense when I look at clips from her training.  None of he sparring partners were mobile like holm.


She lost a fight. Has nothing to do with her training. She's a great fighter. She just had a bad night. Analize the hell out of it but she just was out fought.


----------



## elder999

JowGaWolf said:


> Her mom was a judo champion as well.  Her mom is very intelligent, she should have listed to her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In another interview her mom said that the reason Ronda was so good at Judo was because she used to take her to different places (gyms).  Her mom seems to have a good sense of what fighting is about.
> Her mom fighting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Her mom explains her comments about the coach. It's funny how what she stated is exactly what happened during the fight. I hope Rhonda will listen to her mom now.


Her mom's what we call "about a what for."

As in, _ain't she about a *what for???*_






That famous Rousey armbar came straight from her mom. Her mom wrecked her knees, and _nage waza_ became too difficult for her to rely on, o she concentrated _ne waza_, and _katame waza_ and _kansetsu waza_ in particular-and went on to win a world championship that way...._ain't that about a what for??_


----------



## drop bear

Tames D said:


> You really believe that???



Yeah.  If you are being taken apart in the stand up.  It effects everything else.


----------



## Buka

elder999 said:


> What's telling is that he's her principle striking coach, not just her "Head Coach."
> 
> He's taught her how to throw punches, but he hasn't really taught her how to box- as long as she was fighting MMArtists, other grapplers, and lower-tier kickboxers, it fit in with her skillset and game plan: she could go straight in and bull over an opponent. She's never displayed evasive movement, never cut off the ring, never circled-and never had to. She goes straight in, and most people have just stood there......
> 
> ...and Edmond's gotta go.



Well said, every word.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

BJJ Scout posted a breakdown analyzing how the match might go a few days before the fight. Looks like they got a whole bunch of stuff exactly right.







Hanzou said:


> What's that old saying? You get punched in the face as a Black Belt, you instantly become a Brown Belt? You get punched in the face again, and you instantly become a Purple belt?
> 
> I think by the end of that fight, Ronda had made it all the way back to White belt.



Overstating the case, I think. By the end of the fight Ronda had been punched down from an Olympic champion with a strong MMA game to the level of a pretty good Judo black belt who might have won some state championships. (That's probably a bigger skill gap than the gap between a normal black belt and a normal white belt.) Holm was making her look bad, but if you had subbed in a lesser opponent in the last couple of minutes, Ronda would still have been dangerous.


----------



## Steve

Great article about Holly Holm from February, 2015 just prior to her UFC debut.  Very interesting, particularly in light of recent events. 

Holly Holm: Women's MMA 'would benefit greatly' if Ronda Rousey lost



> "I think when you see one person do well or kind of bring down the No. 1, then everybody thinks, well if she can do that, I can, too."
> 
> It's unclear what having a champion like Rousey who bullies every contender has done for the UFC... But ultimately, is it good for women's MMA to have someone so much better than the rest? Holm isn't sure. The Albuquerque, N.M., native thinks Rousey losing could be a boon to the rest of the women's bantamweight division.
> 
> "I think it kind of brings that person down to a normal level," Holm said.


----------



## elder999

Steve said:


> Great article about Holly Holm from February, 2015 just prior to her UFC debut.  Very interesting, particularly in light of recent events.
> 
> Holly Holm: Women's MMA 'would benefit greatly' if Ronda Rousey lost



What's really interesting is that, well-Ronda had already said she was gonna take a sort of "UFC vacation" to make a couple of movies. It's bad for business, though, to have a champion sitting idly with the title-Holly winning was *good business* for the UFC as well.


----------



## Tez3

Well, the UFC was never going to lose out was it.


----------



## elder999

Tez3 said:


> Well, the UFC was never going to lose out was it.



No, but having the champion sit on her championship for six months or more would have lost them some money......


----------



## Tez3

elder999 said:


> No, but having the champion sit on her championship for six months or more would have lost them some money......



They'll have had Plan B and probably C, they won't miss out.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> "“The game plan was pressing,” Tarverdyan said. “We knew Holly Holm was going to keep the distance. So we had to feint and get inside and pressure the right way so we can get on the side of the cage."
> Horrible plan.  Do people go into a fight with only 1 plan?



Mostly yes.


----------



## elder999

Tez3 said:


> They'll have had Plan B and probably C, they won't miss out.



Holly Holm winning *was* "Plan B."


----------



## Steve

elder999 said:


> What's really interesting is that, well-Ronda had already said she was gonna take a sort of "UFC vacation" to make a couple of movies. It's bad for business, though, to have a champion sitting idly with the title-Holly winning was *good business* for the UFC as well.


One of the wwe guys said the same thing l, alleging the fight was fixed for this exact reason.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## elder999

Steve said:


> One of the wwe guys said the same thing l, alleging the fight was fixed for this exact reason.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If it was fixed, it was pretty well fixed-kinda like saying Liston v. Ali was fixed-people say it to this day, but there's no proof. 

Holly Holm was just better....but a fix would have made good business sense.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Steve said:


> One of the wwe guys said the same thing l, alleging the fight was fixed for this exact reason.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, that's nonsense. Even if Rousey were the type to throw a fight*, the way you do that is to drop your guard for a moment, take a shot and go down. Make it look like a fluke and you don't have to take much damage. You don't deliberately run face first into hard shots repeatedly the whole fight until you're legitimately out cold.

*(Which I absolutely do not believe she is.)

If you want to see fights which may have been thrown, Ken Shamrock has a couple of likely candidates.


----------



## Steve

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, that's nonsense. Even if Rousey were the type to throw a fight*, the way you do that is to drop your guard for a moment, take a shot and go down. Make it look like a fluke and you don't have to take much damage. You don't deliberately run face first into hard shots repeatedly the whole fight until you're legitimately out cold.
> 
> *(Which I absolutely do not believe she is.)
> 
> If you want to see fights which may have been thrown, Ken Shamrock has a couple of likely candidates.


I hope it is clear that I don't subscribe to the idea that Rousey threw the fight.  I was only observing that Elder's opinions were identical to those of the pro wrestler, who used them to assert that the fight was thrown.


----------



## elder999

Steve said:


> I hope it is clear that I don't subscribe to the idea that Rousey threw the fight.  I was only observing that Elder's opinions were identical to those of the pro wrestler, who used them to assert that the fight was thrown.



And I'm not saying that either-what I *am* saying is that the timing is convenient-I have my suspicions, only because it's not like Ronda Rousey to show up so relatively unfit.....


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, that's nonsense. Even if Rousey were the type to throw a fight*, the way you do that is to drop your guard for a moment, take a shot and go down. Make it look like a fluke and you don't have to take much damage. You don't deliberately run face first into hard shots repeatedly the whole fight until you're legitimately out cold.
> 
> *(Which I absolutely do not believe she is.)
> 
> If you want to see fights which may have been thrown, Ken Shamrock has a couple of likely candidates.



If you were going to throw a fight.  You probably wouldnt do it via head kick.


----------



## drop bear

There is one important factor being missed. And hanzou mentioned it.  If the other person is a craftier striker.  You will look like a chump. 

Not only because you get hit.  But you then have to do stupid stuff to avoid getting hit.


----------



## Tez3

elder999 said:


> Holly Holm winning *was* "Plan B."




It's a business, they do what suits them. If Rousey threw that fight then she's also taking the wrong acting lessons, one's supposed to act not actually get KO'd, break your jaw etc.


----------



## elder999

Tez3 said:


> It's a business, they do what suits them. If Rousey threw that fight then she's also taking the wrong acting lessons, one's supposed to act not actually get KO'd, break your jaw etc.


eh-her jaw ain't broken. Her face is kinda messed up. She needed stitches in her lip, and has some serious bruises....pretty sure that fight wasn't a work, but it's still convenient-fairly certain Dana White's scouting had it that Holly had a good plan for Ronda-willing to bet that _he_ bet on Holly......and big....

in other news, though, how's this for classy?


----------



## JowGaWolf

elder999 said:


> eh-her jaw ain't broken. Her face is kinda messed up. She needed stitches in her lip, and has some serious bruises....pretty sure that fight wasn't a work, but it's still convenient-fairly certain Dana White's scouting had it that Holly had a good plan for Ronda-willing to bet that _he_ bet on Holly......and big....
> 
> in other news, though, how's this for classy?


Not classy in my book.  Just an opportunity.


----------



## elder999

JowGaWolf said:


> Not classy in my book.  Just an opportunity.


Nah, after all the **** (and it was pretty funny ****!!) she's said about him, it's just classy.


----------



## drop bear

elder999 said:


> eh-her jaw ain't broken. Her face is kinda messed up. She needed stitches in her lip, and has some serious bruises....pretty sure that fight wasn't a work, but it's still convenient-fairly certain Dana White's scouting had it that Holly had a good plan for Ronda-willing to bet that _he_ bet on Holly......and big....
> 
> in other news, though, how's this for classy?



It is good that she isnt hurt. 

Apparently dana looked pretty shocked at the time.


----------



## Steve

elder999 said:


> Nah, after all the **** (and it was pretty funny ****!!) she's said about him, it's just classy.


Classy?   Lol...


----------



## Tames D

Steve said:


> Classy?   Lol...


He made that statement to get in her pants. Can't fool me. He's a player LOL


----------



## jks9199

elder999 said:


> And I'm not saying that either-what I *am* saying is that the timing is convenient-I have my suspicions, only because it's not like Ronda Rousey to show up so relatively unfit.....


Maybe not so much a fix, as a combination of some overconfidence, some distraction with all the irons she's had in the fire, some ego (gotta prove she's got the stand-up game she's claimed), some convenient break in her fight career) ... and a nice helping of Dana White gets a win-win...


----------



## ShotoNoob

elder999 said:


> A few things....
> 
> My girl (Rousey) is crazy-as in psycho. No one wants to believe that, but time will prove me right. I'm rooting for her.....
> 
> The WWE stuff--don't believe all the hype-they actually get bonuses from Dana for delivering that ****....and it wasn't so much....
> 
> My home girl (Holly Holm) is coached by my friends-I don't think she has more than a puncher's chance, but might have with another four fights under her belt-but she's got good stuff. I'm rooting for her too!
> 
> (Holly Holm developed knockout power in both legs pretty quickly, and she's a good boxer, and has proven to be able to fight takedowns well- I think she might have a prayer of a chance, but that's about it.)
> 
> (Ronda Rousey can't *stand* to lose-which is part of where "champions" are defined: how well they pickup from losing. It will be interesting to see her finally lose her UFC title, if it ever happens.....)


\
Pyscho falls against mental discipline.... my standard won out....
\
Let's see who else stuck their foot in their mouth...


----------



## ShotoNoob

Hanzou said:


> Greg Jackson does it again. Holly Holm was a surgeon in that ring, and Rousey got too cocky with her "striking skills".
> 
> YTH did I stop betting on these kind of matches?


\
Oh gawd... not more Greg Jackson fonalling???


----------



## ShotoNoob

Buka said:


> As we all hear, head kicks never work in a fight.


The head kick worked because HOnda was pretty much battered & bewildered from the hand exchanges....  Holm's tactics were, in fact, spot on....


----------



## ShotoNoob

kuniggety said:


> To be fair, I thought Rousey was doing pretty good in the first round. She went in for a couple of failed take downs but she landed about as many solid blows as Holly. She just straight up dropped her guard in that second round and got rocked because of it.


\
Holm didn't get away unscathed.  Nevertheless, Honda really took a beating as well as experiencing a shutdown of her grappling tactics...  IMO, Honda lost by end of Round 1.  Round 2 was merely the finish of a defeated opponent....


----------



## ShotoNoob

JowGaWolf said:


> She should have used her energy to stay focus on the fight instead of showing an attitude.


\
Yeah, and you should have responded more focused on the substance of my replies...  Still, your sparring philosophy is sound....


----------



## ShotoNoob

JowGaWolf said:


> Her recovery was bad and as a result that kick.


\
HOnda was done mentally; and her overly aggressive attitude didn't fly against a superbly prepared professional boxer (kick boxer)...
\
= +1 for you, Ja Gow....


----------



## ShotoNoob

JowGaWolf said:


> I agree.  The best defense in the world is "hands up".


|
WRONG..... that's not kung fu @ all...


----------



## ShotoNoob

jks9199 said:


> Maybe not so much a fix, as a combination of some overconfidence, some distraction with all the irons she's had in the fire, some ego (gotta prove she's got the stand-up game she's claimed), some convenient break in her fight career) ... and a nice helping of Dana White gets a win-win...


\
So true.  These MMA champions have muti-faceted responsibilities.  They don't really get paid well until they make it to the top of the mountain... and the promotional pressures are intense....


----------



## kuniggety

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Holm didn't get away unscathed.  Nevertheless, Honda really took a beating as well as experiencing a shutdown of her grappling tactics...  IMO, Honda lost by end of Round 1.  Round 2 was merely the finish of a defeated opponent....


I agree. I'm curious about your reply of Holmes not getting away unscathed; I certainly didn't imply this. Random question but why are you spelling Ronda as Honda?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Hanzou said:


> I find it very odd that with all her years in MMA, and her ability to train with the best in the business, that Rousey throws almost no kicks. Was her intention to just use boxing and Judo for her striking/standup?
> 
> Holes comes from a boxing background, and she developed some very good kicking ability (thanks to Jackson and Winklejohn), so what's the deal?


\
Woah.... ya'alll told me a jillion times that grappling is nearly impossible for a striker to stop....  Come on....


----------



## ShotoNoob

kuniggety said:


> I agree. I'm curious about your reply of Holmes not getting away unscathed; I certainly didn't imply this. Random question but why are you spelling Ronda as Honda?


\
We agreed.  What's the issue?  Honda's a nickname fans have given her....


----------



## ShotoNoob

elder999 said:


> You ever seen her throw more than a knee?
> 
> 'Nuthin; odd about that-it's a skillset she's not comfortable with, or she  doesn't feel she needs for MMA....not like it would  have made any difference here....


\
Grappling can defeat a striker.  Problem was Honda's Judo game has transitioned away from the mental discipline I have talked about.  HOnda was very undisciplined mentally in the Holm fight.... and many MMA commenters have technically analyzed her mistakes grappling.
\
Relying on physical strength & aggression appears all the time in competition Judo - however such is contrary to traditional Judo's emphasis on a yielding philosophy and using the opponent's actions & strength against them.  Ronda scored a zero (@ best) against Holm re the manner in which traditional Judo is to be performed....
\
HOnda, in essense Judo-wise, defeated herself....


----------



## ShotoNoob

JowGaWolf said:


> I was surprise to see Rousey with such bad foot work. It was more unstable than I thought it would be, so I went to see what type of foot work training she did. Now I understand why her footwork is bad.  None of that footwork training she was doing in the video translates into the footwork that is done when fighting.


\
What's your opinion on Rousey's striking training regimen...????  Not just footwork....


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tony Dismukes said:


> Kicking doesn't really fit into what has been Rousey's gameplan so far, which is to bull-rush her opponent in order to get the clinch.


\
Tony, I can finally affirm your grappling position...


Tony Dismukes said:


> A lot of that was Holm _making_ her look bad.  Against a lesser opponent it wouldn't have shown up nearly so much. Fighting someone with really good evasive footwork is frustrating. Doing so while getting repeatedly punched hard in the face is extremely frustrating. That sort of thing really exposes any gaps in your training.


\
So Tony, tell how us to fight against really, good evasive footwork.  Your thoughts...


----------



## ShotoNoob

Hanzou said:


> I think by the end of that fight, Ronda had made it all the way back to White belt.


\
Holm nearly made Honda look like a white belt... Not quite.... but close.... Of course Holm is a championship boxer.... we have to give Honda some slack on that....


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tony Dismukes said:


> Tarverdyan is a delusional idiot. Ronda's mom has been wanting Ronda to fire him and she's right.


\
Tarverdyan teaches conventional MMA striking drills .... just like all other MMA camps as a drill.  Of course some go beyond that.  Actually a respected MMA coach who believes in boxing says Ronda's striking is good by MMA standards....against a Holly Holm he predicted Holm would win...


----------



## ShotoNoob

dup


----------



## ShotoNoob

JowGaWolf said:


> Her mom was a judo champion as well.  Her mom is very intelligent, she should have listed to her.


\
A little synthesis Ja Gow.  Rousey's MOM is super aggressive, sport win minded @ very high costs...  Here, her MOM's hard-charging, aggressive nature became a legacy of loss, not success, for daughter HOnda.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tames D said:


> She lost a fight. Has nothing to do with her training. She's a great fighter. She just had a bad night. Analize the hell out of it but she just was out fought.


\
NO.


----------



## ShotoNoob

I Picked Ronda to Win....  Was wrong....
\
I thought Ronda would fight smarter.  Holm's training vids/ Winkyjohn's striking training drills as posted, not that great.  In fact,  they suffered in principle from the same failing you all are beating up on Tarverdyan fom, and more....
\
So I got caught on both ends: under-performance by Honda leading into over performance by Holm...  Holm hit a lot harder than her past fight tape would lead one to believe.  Jackson & Winky & Co. garner credit for training harder hitting....IMO.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Pyscho falls against mental discipline.... my standard won out....
> \
> Let's see who else stuck their foot in their mouth...





ShotoNoob said:


> Oh gawd... not more Greg Jackson fonalling???




You know none of that makes any sense don't you? it's a whole lot of words purporting to be a sentence. And why are you calling Rousey 'Honda', they make cars they don't fight.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Tarverdyan teaches conventional MMA striking drills ....* just like all other MMA* *camps as a drill*.




Wrong. You know next to nothing about how MMA gyms train, I'm beginning to suspect you know far less than you think about martial arts in general.


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Oh gawd... not more Greg Jackson fonalling???



The guy produces champions. His sport style training gives them the superior mental clarity.


----------



## JowGaWolf

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> WRONG..... that's not kung fu @ all...


It has nothing to do with kung fu. The closer your hands are to the blocking position of your head, the faster your hands can get to that position.  The reality of defense is that if it takes 1 second for my opponent to attack me then I have less than 1 second to recognize the attack and to correctly react to it.  Hands up also makes it difficult to attack the head (if the guard is good), because you have to get through the guard.  An attack that hits the guard weakens or stops the impact that is going to hit the head.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

ShotoNoob said:


> So Tony, tell how us to fight against really, good evasive footwork. Your thoughts...


I'm far from an expert on the subject. There are a lot of skills that go into being good at closing on someone who has that kind of footwork. Lateral movement to cut off the available space rather than pivoting to follow the opponent. Good head movement to avoid getting hit while coming in. Baiting the opponent to attack you first and countering/closing as they strike. Feinting. Having a really, really good understanding of distance. Even if you know what to do, executing it can be difficult.

Of course, I train more from a self-defense perspective so I have a much easier option against someone who is being evasive and backing away. I can just leave.


----------



## Hanzou

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Woah.... ya'alll told me a jillion times that grappling is nearly impossible for a striker to stop....  Come on....



A striker who has no concept of how grappling operates will typically be at a disadvantage. However, when it comes to MMA, it's highly unlikely that you're going to encounter anyone who has no concept of grappling, or how to counter it.


----------



## JowGaWolf

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> A little synthesis Ja Gow.  Rousey's MOM is super aggressive, sport win minded @ very high costs...  Here, her MOM's hard-charging, aggressive nature became a legacy of loss, not success, for daughter HOnda.


That was her coaches plan, and he even stated so.  Rhonda's mom said  that her daughter was only as good as she was before UFC because she used to take her to different places to study Judo.  She didn't like the fact that she only stayed with one gym.  If I was a UFC fighter, I would want to be exposed to as many fighters as possible, I would want to know the various methods of attacks, defenses, and strategies that the fighters may use.  For example, If you go to one fighter, he may suggest to move side ways to prevent Holms from escaping, while another fighter may say that he doesn't chase an opponent with good footwork, he lets the opponent come to him.

There are always multiple approaches to attack an opponent.  When one strategy fails then you have to go to another.  If you have only one strategy and that strategy is failing, then you basically have nothing else to pull from.  The end result is that you keep doing the plan that fails.

Rhonda's coach made the assumption that rushing a striker always works.


----------



## kuniggety

JowGaWolf said:


> Rhonda's coach made the assumption that rushing a striker always works.



To Roussey's credit, the rushing in was working as it got her to get Holmes into a headlock twice and a clinch once. She even took Holmes to the ground once, which should've been the winning move for Roussey. It might've been because she took too many blows, I don't know, but her judo just wasn't where it should've been in the fight. It clearly cost her.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

kuniggety said:


> To Roussey's credit, the rushing in was working as it got her to get Holmes into a headlock twice and a clinch once. She even took Holmes to the ground once, which should've been the winning move for Roussey. It might've been because she took too many blows, I don't know, but her judo just wasn't where it should've been in the fight. It clearly cost her.


1) Holm had obviously prepared herself very well for defending the clinch, the headlock, and the armbar long enough to escape.
2) By the time Rousey had gotten her first clinch, she had already been hit hard enough to be hurt and at least mildly concussed. That will take some polish off of anybody's technique.


----------



## kuniggety

Tony Dismukes said:


> 1) Holm had obviously prepared herself very well for defending the clinch, the headlock, and the armbar long enough to escape.
> 2) By the time Rousey had gotten her first clinch, she had already been hit hard enough to be hurt and at least mildly concussed. That will take some polish off of anybody's technique.



Agreed. I'm just not sure how she should've approached it differently. Boxing/striking, while she has gotten better, is not her forte. She rushed and got into the grappling range three times where her strength really lies. She obviously failed at the grappling but that's exactly where she should've been.


----------



## JowGaWolf

kuniggety said:


> To Roussey's credit, the rushing in was working as it got her to get Holmes into a headlock twice and a clinch once. She even took Holmes to the ground once, which should've been the winning move for Roussey. It might've been because she took too many blows, I don't know, but her judo just wasn't where it should've been in the fight. It clearly cost her.


It wasn't working. Watch the fight again. Rousey spent the entire fight chasing Holmes.  Had the rushing worked she would have spent most of that time grappling. 
Correction: Rousey spent the entire fight chasing Holm, looking awkward with the footwork, and eating punches all because she was stuck on the plan of pressing and rushing in, which is why she stumbled to her knees looking like a clumsy teen with no coordination.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

kuniggety said:


> Agreed. I'm just not sure how she should've approached it differently. Boxing/striking, while she has gotten better, is not her forte. She rushed and got into the grappling range three times where her strength really lies. She obviously failed at the grappling but that's exactly where she should've been.


I think what she has to do now is learn to be more scientific about getting inside. The trick is to get to grappling range (possibly repeatedly)without having a concussion by the time she gets there. With previous opponents she was able to just bull rush them and grab the headlock. Holm exposed the weakness of that tactic.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think what she has to do now is learn to be more scientific about getting inside. The trick is to get to grappling range (possibly repeatedly)without having a concussion by the time she gets there. With previous opponents she was able to just bull rush them and grab the headlock. Holm exposed the weakness of that tactic.


Exactly. Even the Gracies don't rush in the way Rousey was rushing in.


----------



## Dinkydoo

Rousey out for 6 months - nothing new here, as per her plans for movie-work, but this makes it official unless a CT Scan can evidence no damage was caused on Saturday.

Joanna J also out with a suspected broken hand

Ronda Rousey suspended 6 months by UFC because of head injury


----------



## Dirty Dog

Dinkydoo said:


> Rousey out for 6 months - nothing new here, as per her plans for movie-work, but this makes it official unless a CT Scan can evidence no damage was caused on Saturday.
> 
> Joanna J also out with a suspected broken hand
> 
> Ronda Rousey suspended 6 months by UFC because of head injury



She was knocked out. She has, by definition, a grade III concussion, which won't show up on a CT anyway.
6 months out is a good idea regardless of the CT. 
If the CT shows anything, it will be:
1 A fracture, which is entirely recoverable.
2 A bleed or shearing injury, either of which is a damn good reason to retire.
3 One of Holms' toes, still lodged in her face (ok, not really...).


----------



## kuniggety

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think what she has to do now is learn to be more scientific about getting inside. The trick is to get to grappling range (possibly repeatedly)without having a concussion by the time she gets there. With previous opponents she was able to just bull rush them and grab the headlock. Holm exposed the weakness of that tactic.


Agreed. I think the goal should always be to get punched in the face less.


----------



## ShotoNoob

JowGaWolf said:


> It has nothing to do with kung fu. The closer your hands are to the blocking position of your head, the faster your hands can get to that position.  The reality of defense is that if it takes 1 second for my opponent to attack me then I have less than 1 second to recognize the attack and to correctly react to it.  Hands up also makes it difficult to attack the head (if the guard is good), because you have to get through the guard.  An attack that hits the guard weakens or stops the impact that is going to hit the head.


\
Ok, by your sparring adaptation.  But your 1st sentence defies traditional CMA.
\
In terms of the tactics you want to use in application & present in class.... I validate your application....\
\
How are you & boxing brother making out?


----------



## Dinkydoo

Dirty Dog said:


> She was knocked out. She has, by definition, a grade III concussion, which won't show up on a CT anyway.
> 6 months out is a good idea regardless of the CT.
> If the CT shows anything, it will be:
> 1 A fracture, which is entirely recoverable.
> 2 A bleed or shearing injury, either of which is a damn good reason to retire.
> 3 One of Holms' toes, still lodged in her face (ok, not really...).




I agree man, the bit about the CT wasn't me trying to be a fountain of medical knowledge - it came straight from the article.  I have a sacroiliac joint on my left knee, remember  

Despite the obvious health implications, I don't think a quick return to fighting after suffering a defeat like that (arguably for the first time), is a good idea. She has some soul searching to do after last weekend because not only did the better opponent on the night win, her self belief in her striking ability, the fight strategy and preparation was wrong. That means what she was being told by her team was incorrect and therefore it seems like some changes need to be made.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm far from an expert on the subject.


\
Well I don't know what to call it, then.  To me, you are very knowledgeable about the grappling arts, such as BJJ & Judo.  You've worked hard @ getting accomplished in your style; I believe you are an accomplished practitioner.


Tony Dismukes said:


> There are a lot of skills that go into being good at closing on someone who has that kind of footwork. Lateral movement to cut off the available space rather than pivoting to follow the opponent. Good head movement to avoid getting hit while coming in. Baiting the opponent to attack you first and countering/closing as they strike. Feinting. Having a really, really good understanding of distance.


\
See Tony, now you are validating my opinion about you.
\


Tony Dismukes said:


> Even if you know what to do, executing it can be difficult.


\
That's where the 'art' comes in after 'martial.'  Holm really showed the fruits of professional training...IMO.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Of course, I train more from a self-defense perspective so I have a much easier option against someone who is being evasive and backing away. I can just leave.


\
Yeah, but you know applied fighting as a generality...  You posts about what you do are well presented...IMO.  I especially enjoyed some of you perspectives about Judo...


----------



## elder999

Dinkydoo said:


> That means what she was being told by her team was incorrect and therefore it seems like some changes need to be made.




Not _team_-one guy. There is a team-it includes guys like Gene LeBell and Gokor Chivichyan, but he's the guy: head coach, principle striking coach, and she's insanely loyal...should be interesting.


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> The guy produces champions. His sport style training gives them the superior mental clarity.


\
I usually don't reply to your posts, sometimes I do to your alter-ego(s).\
|
Jackson exploits top talent who are blessed with that before they ever hit his gym....  Even solid UFC rated competitors can get bounced out of Jackson's if he sees someone more to his advantage towards his business success....
\
I hate to give Jackson credit... but his team certainly prepared Holm tactically... yet when I congratulated on that.... another MT poster robo-dis-agreed... poor shotonoob....


----------



## Dinkydoo

elder999 said:


> Not _team_-one guy. There is a team, but he's the guy: head coach, principle striking coach, and she's insanely loyal...should be interesting.


Okay, cool. I don't really know much about the structure of her team or any of the politics, just that fighting is a team endeavour - whether that team is an 'official' fight team, or the implicit one consisting of you and your instructor(s). 

It will be interesting to see what develops over the next few weeks


----------



## ShotoNoob

Hanzou said:


> A striker who has no concept of how grappling operates will typically be at a disadvantage. However, when it comes to MMA, it's highly unlikely that you're going to encounter anyone who has no concept of grappling, or how to counter it.


\
Blah, blah, thread continuation ad infinitude alert....  "booble," did I saw "booble?" ROTF


----------



## ShotoNoob

kuniggety said:


> To Roussey's credit, the rushing in was working as it got her to get Holmes into a headlock twice and a clinch once. She even took Holmes to the ground once, which should've been the winning move for Roussey. It might've been because she took too many blows, I don't know, but her judo just wasn't where it should've been in the fight. It clearly cost her.


\
YEp, yep, and yep.


----------



## ShotoNoob

The HOLM UPSET was one I didn't see coming.... though I noted Holm's potential.... I misjudged the level of skill & strength she executed against Rousey....  This was a once in 5-year MMA event.  I was rooting for Holm personally because of the striking style match up....
\
Thanks Holly for the vindication / validation of poor Shotonoob....


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> I usually don't reply to your posts, sometimes I do to your alter-ego(s).\
> |
> Jackson exploits top talent who are blessed with that before they ever hit his gym....  Even solid UFC rated competitors can get bounced out of Jackson's if he sees someone more to his advantage towards his business success....
> \
> I hate to give Jackson credit... but his team certainly prepared Holm tactically... yet when I congratulated on that.... another MT poster robo-dis-agreed... poor shotonoob....





ShotoNoob said:


> \
> I usually don't reply to your posts, sometimes I do to your alter-ego(s).\
> |
> Jackson exploits top talent who are blessed with that before they ever hit his gym....  Even solid UFC rated competitors can get bounced out of Jackson's if he sees someone more to his advantage towards his business success....
> \
> I hate to give Jackson credit... but his team certainly prepared Holm tactically... yet when I congratulated on that.... another MT poster robo-dis-agreed... poor shotonoob....



When your job is to turn out mma superstars. I am sure you go for the best basic talent.

But he does train some not so top tier guys. Kyle noke. Is a greg Jackson guy.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Dinkydoo said:


> Despite the obvious health implications, I don't think a quick return to fighting after suffering a defeat like that (arguably for the first time), is a good idea. She has some soul searching to do after last weekend because not only did the better opponent on the night win, her self belief in her striking ability, the fight strategy and preparation was wrong. That means what she was being told by her team was incorrect and therefore it seems like some changes need to be made.


\
Actually, most all of MMA striking training is incorrect for actual competition.... I can refer you to Ja Gow's threads, videos & post for a start...
\
Everyone is so quick to blame Tarverdyan.  Yet what he trains is identical to 90% of what MMA camps are doing....  Some exceptions  other than Jackson exist.  Nonetheless you are now criticizing precisely what I have been criticizing about MMA striking training all along.
\
Edmond Tarverdyan is now just the lighting rod 'cause Honda bombed....  MMA conventional training and Honda herself deserve the lionshare of blame... not Taverdyan.... that's the scapegoat easy way out for MT.


----------



## elder999

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Actually, most all of MMA striking training is incorrect for actual competitor.... I can refer you to Ja Gow's threads, videos & post for a start...
> \
> Everyone is so quick to blame Tarverdyan.  Yet what he trains is identical to 90% of what MMA camps are doing....  Some exceptions  other than Jackson exist.  Nonetheless you are now criticizing precisely what I have been criticizing about MMA striking training all along.
> \
> Edmond Tarverdyan is now just the lighting rod 'cause Honda bombed....  MMA conventional training and Honda herself deserve the lionshare of blame... not Taverdyan.... that's the scapegoat easy way out for MT.



SO what you're saying, then, is that MMA training is wrong for MMA?

Interesting.,


----------



## Dinkydoo

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Actually, most all of MMA striking training is incorrect for actual competitor.... I can refer you to Ja Gow's threads, videos & post for a start...
> \
> Everyone is so quick to blame Tarverdyan.  Yet what he trains is identical to 90% of what MMA camps are doing....  Some exceptions  other than Jackson exist.  Nonetheless you are now criticizing precisely what I have been criticizing about MMA striking training all along.
> \
> Edmond Tarverdyan is now just the lighting rod 'cause Honda bombed....  MMA conventional training and Honda herself deserve the lionshare of blame... not Taverdyan.... that's the scapegoat easy way out for MT.


So for the last year and a half, mostly at kickboxing and now latterly at Muay Thai and MMA, I've always been told not to chase an opponent straight on but to instead circle and use the jab as a measuring tool to gauge distance and get inside. Now I've personally been really bad at applying this theory (a few black eyes as evidence) but regardless, if your post was true then I've now trained at two different clubs that are doing what 90% of other gyms are not....

I seriously doubt that.


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> When your job is to turn out mma superstars. I am sure you go for the best basic talent.


\
As a businessman.... Jackson is the BEST in MMA.  But then he's lauded as being Mr, Nice Guy for everyone.... I've seen the same BS in my current karate org.... Promotion of the top echelon is rampant over the students.  The great character trait about Ja Gow is that he readily fesses up to his ego.... that's someone prospective students should value..... 



drop bear said:


> But he does train some not so top tier guys. Kyle noke. Is a greg Jackson guy.


\
Well thanks for the input.... I really don't follow Jackson closely.... I'm a traditional karate guy who Greg Jackson wouldn't want a guest appearance from me...  The way to outstrike Holly Holm or Jon Jones is traditional karate... the kind I have posted on.  Ja Gow might give them a run for the money....
\
I have literally shocked  the so-called tough guys at my current dojo; as well as elsewhere....  But with all the 'disagrees' and 'dislikes' I get like here; who is willing to train to traditional karate standards...???
\
In closing, Jackson DOES run the best MMA coaching business... With only Holly Holm & Jone Jones in the gym though, his income statement would be pretty bleak with out the regulars....   My dojo same commercial realization....


----------



## ShotoNoob

Dinkydoo said:


> So for the last year and a half, mostly at kickboxing and now latterly at Muay Thai and MMA, I've always been told not to chase an opponent straight on but to instead circle and use the jab as a measuring tool to gauge distance and get inside. Now I've personally been really bad at applying this theory (a few black eyes as evidence) but regardless, if your post was true then I've now trained at two different clubs that are doing what 90% of other gyms are not....
> 
> I seriously doubt that.


\
There's oodles of responses here claiming the reverse... that the Gracie's can really be stopped... that BJJ is too much for strikers without some 'specialized' training... by MT grappling teachers now doubt....
\
Why don't you give Ronda a call like Floyd M and offer your services....  MOreover, I said I thought Ronda would be smarter in concert with you; and my posts got disagree & dislike....  Talking out of both sides of one's mouth....
\
And you guys bust on Tarverdyan for promoting his fighter and his business...


----------



## ShotoNoob

elder999 said:


> SO what you're saying, then, is that MMA training is wrong for MMA?
> 
> Interesting.,


\
No, that's what you are saying,,, and isolating out what Tarverdyan does as the 'problem' ' cause Honda got creamed by a STRIKER (YEA, HOLLY!).
\
Like Jake Ellenberger going on record saying pre-Wonderboy fight.... "hhee, karate that's funny."  His MMA Training was "RIGHT" for MMA.  And Jake has a decent MMA record.  Against Wonderboy.....
\
Roll eyes is right... "hey Shotonoob, you're funny."  Your comment is right in sync with promotion... as was Ellenberger's really brilliant on that score...


----------



## Dinkydoo

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> There's oodles of responses here claiming the reverse... that the Gracie's can really be stopped... that BJJ is too much for strikers without some 'specialized' training... by MT grappling teachers now doubt....
> \
> Why don't you give Ronda a call like Floyd M and offer your services....  MOreover, I said I thought Ronda would be smarter in concert with you; and my posts got disagree & dislike....  Talking out of both sides of one's mouth....
> \
> And you guys bust on Tarverdyan for promoting his fighter and his business...



I'm not saying that I would have ANYTHING helpful to say to Rhonda Rousey in terms of improving her fight game....you're the one who's claiming to know how 90% of combat sport gyms train. All I'm saying is that from my experience of actually training at clubs teaching combat sports, I've found what you've said to be wrong - in general, people aren't taught to spar linearly, unless it's part of a specific strategy (which RR's recent fight evidently was)


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tony Dismukes said:


> 1) Holm had obviously prepared herself very well for defending the clinch, the headlock, and the armbar long enough to escape.


\
Yes... I think your details are spot on.... Holly was prepared to defend grappling.... HOnda's sub-par performance though.... greased the wheel of those Holm defenses...


Tony Dismukes said:


> 2) By the time Rousey had gotten her first clinch, she had already been hit hard enough to be hurt and at least mildly concussed. That will take some polish off of anybody's technique.


\
Holly smacked the crap outta Honda.... literally.  My striker over grappler thesis all along.... Proven by your post...  thx Tony.....


----------



## Dinkydoo

And generally yes, grapplers do tend to be a problem for anyone without some kind of grappling skillset. A high level striker can pose the same danger to someone who only knows how to wrestle, but there are differences.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

ShotoNoob said:


> Everyone is so quick to blame Tarverdyan. Yet what he trains is identical to 90% of what MMA camps are doing.... Some exceptions other than Jackson exist. Nonetheless you are now criticizing precisely what I have been criticizing about MMA striking training all along.
> \
> Edmond Tarverdyan is now just the lighting rod 'cause Honda bombed.... MMA conventional training and Honda herself deserve the lionshare of blame... not Taverdyan.... that's the scapegoat easy way out for MT.



I can't speak for others, but my dislike of Taverdyan's coaching isn't based on any in-depth analysis of his training methods. It's based on the fact that he isn't honest and realistic with his fighter. Leave aside the fact that before the fight he was claiming that Ronda's boxing was good enough for her to be a world champion boxer. Leave aside the fact that after the first round he told Ronda she was doing great. *After* the fight, he said that *he didn't think Holly Holm had gotten the better of Ronda is the striking department!!!
*
I think that's proof enough that either he's completely delusional and incompetent or else he's just so used to blowing smoke up Ronda's *** that he can't stop doing it even when it makes him look like an idiot. A coach needs to provide his fighters with honest, accurate feedback on how they are doing and what they need to work on. That's one of their most important jobs.


----------



## JowGaWolf

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Ok, by your sparring adaptation.  But your 1st sentence defies traditional CMA.
> \
> In terms of the tactics you want to use in application & present in class.... I validate your application....\
> \
> How are you & boxing brother making out?


The boxing guy is Missing in action. I haven't seen him for a while now. I'm doing good as far as kung fu goes.  I discovered how to use another technique and when to use it, so I'm really excited about it.  However, my kung fu other kung fu brother isn't so sure that I have the right deployment of it.  I saw doubt in his eyes when I told him that I finally understood the technique.  I'm pretty sure that I have it right because he was wide open and I knew that my next possible strike was that specific technique.  I should have just hit him the punch so he wouldn't have any doubt. lol.  But I'm definitely looking foward to using it again but I need to make sure that we have our cups on, because the position of my body felt like the punch would have hit his groin and not his stomach.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Dinkydoo said:


> I'm not saying that I would have ANYTHING helpful to say to Rhonda Rousey in terms of improving her fight game....you're the one who's claiming to know how 90% of combat sport gyms train.


\
Claim? silly.[/quote]
\
I'll go a step farther.  I believe their is MMA coaching talent among the MT who could improve Honda's MMA.  Caveat, though, see my reply below...  And I too have been critical of Tarverdyan....  But this was before the Rousey loss and I'm not going to dump on Tarverdyan for all the blame.... and for actually running an MMA training camp that fits with MMA conventions....
\


Dinkydoo said:


> All I'm saying is that from my experience of actually training at clubs teaching combat sports, I've found what you've said to be wrong - in general, people aren't taught to spar linearly, unless it's part of a specific strategy (which RR's recent fight evidently was)


Ha, why all  the double negatives?  I'm not trying to sell myself to Greg Jackson.... I have some pissed off MMA types @ my dojo, most calmed down compared to my arrival.... Like HOnda, don't take losing well ... to a Laszlo-kinda guy....
\
Moreover.... and proves the low quality of responses I get including new guy here who's trying so hard to understand & have patience with my material.... ya'll talking to 12year old prospective students...???
\
The Moreover is: What Judo teaches the principle tactic of moving in 1 direction?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tony Dismukes said:


> I can't speak for others, but my dislike of Taverdyan's coaching isn't based on any in-depth analysis of his training methods. It's based on the fact that he isn't honest and realistic with his fighter. Leave aside the fact that before the fight he was claiming that Ronda's boxing was good enough for her to be a world champion boxer. Leave aside the fact that after the first round he told Ronda she was doing great. *After* the fight, he said that *he didn't think Holly Holm had gotten the better of Ronda is the striking department!!!
> *
> I think that's proof enough that either he's completely delusional and incompetent or else he's just so used to blowing smoke up Ronda's *** that he can't stop doing it even when it makes him look like an idiot. A coach needs to provide his fighters with honest, accurate feedback on how they are doing and what they need to work on. That's one of their most important jobs.


\
Come on Tony... you're more competent than that...  Suddenly, Edmond's promotion isn't 'professional.'  Listen to Greg Jackson admit to making a mistake.... he always dodges direct responsibility....he's just smooth (tangential) & friendly about it....
\
Everybody in the MMA business has to promote, is expected to promote.  MMA people say dumb-stuff all the time.... see my Jake Ellenberger quote...  still valid promotion.
\
So Edmond is not slick at it.  At least his official face is loyal to Honda... how real, Honda's mom thinks he isn't and if I were Ronda, I'd also have Mom in my corner....


----------



## Tony Dismukes

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Well I don't know what to call it, then. To me, you are very knowledgeable about the grappling arts, such as BJJ & Judo. You've worked hard @ getting accomplished in your style; I believe you are an accomplished practitioner.
> \
> See Tony, now you are validating my opinion about you.
> \


Thanks for the kind words. I'll own up to having a bit of expertise on grappling in general. However your question was specifically on the best approach for fighting an elusive striker with high-level evasive footwork. The stuff I listed is just fundamental concepts. A true expert will understand all the small details that make or break the application of those concepts.


----------



## ShotoNoob

JowGaWolf said:


> The boxing guy is Missing in action. I haven't seen him for a while now.


\
What a truly great MMA presentation you two made.  Hope to see him back... Advice:  don't rough him up too much... that 'ego' thing you know.


JowGaWolf said:


> I'm doing good as far as kung fu goes.  I discovered how to use another technique and when to use it, so I'm really excited about it.  However, my kung fu other kung fu brother isn't so sure that I have the right deployment of it.  I saw doubt in his eyes when I told him that I finally understood the technique.  I'm pretty sure that I have it right because he was wide open and I knew that my next possible strike was that specific technique.


\
Well at the end of the day... it's you against the opponent.... not your "other kung fu brother."


JowGaWolf said:


> I should have just hit him the punch so he wouldn't have any doubt. lol.  But I'm definitely looking foward to using it again but I need to make sure that we have our cups on, because the position of my body felt like the punch would have hit his groin and not his stomach.


\
Go for it.... when I succeed, like at MT... sometimes I get, "you were lucky."  LOL.


----------



## Dinkydoo

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Claim? silly.



?? So you've personal experience of all fighting gyms and their approach to training ?? 



> I'll go a step farther.  I believe their is MMA coaching talent among the MT who could improve Honda's MMA.
> Caveat, though, see my reply below...  And I too have been critical of Tarverdyan....  But this was before the Rousey loss and I'm not going to dump on Tarverdyan for all the blame.... and for actually running an MMA training camp that fits with MMA conventions....



What conventions are those? 



> Ha, why all  the double negatives?  I'm not trying to sell myself to Greg Jackson.... I have some pissed off MMA types @ my dojo, most calmed down compared to my arrival.... Like HOnda, don't take losing well ... to a Laszlo-kinda guy....
> \
> Moreover.... and proves the low quality of responses I get including new guy here who's trying so hard to understand & have patience with my material.... ya'll talking to 12year old prospective students...???



I don't think you're in any position to be commenting on not being able to decipher another MT member's post. Stones and glass houses spring to mind...



> The Moreover is: What Judo teaches the principle tactic of moving in 1 direction?



No idea what that is, having never studied judo from a judo teacher. We're talking about having an MMA fight with a boxing and kickboxing champion and certainly in those disciplines, linear movement isn't heavily encouraged


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tony Dismukes said:


> Thanks for the kind words. I'll own up to having a bit of expertise on grappling in general. However your question was specifically on the best approach for fighting an elusive striker with high-level evasive footwork. The stuff I listed is just fundamental concepts. A true expert will understand all the small details that make or break the application of those concepts.


\
Sure Tony.
\
The interesting thing about the Holm win..... in complete concert with my philosophy.... and apparently in complete line with Jackson / Winky & Co. for Holm.... was expert execution of kihon technique.  READ BASIC...  Holm officially affirmed this about her training regimen post-fight.  Publicly....
|
In traditional karate, the small details are (incorporated) in understanding the mental discipline it takes overall to execute on a higher plane that Holly Holm can attain by boxing principles....
\
Anyhow, I have no doubt whatsoever that you know grappling and the key important principles of your approach & how to train them.... your posts demonstrate so, IMHO.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Dinkydoo said:


> No idea what that is, having never studied judo from a judo teacher. We're talking about having an MMA fight with a boxing and kickboxing champion and certainly in those disciplines, linear movement isn't heavily encouraged


\
Then come back to class prepared.... applies 2x to your other three comments...


----------



## Buka

Ronda's coach did not prepare her for Holm. Not one little bit. Ronda showed no clue in how to cut down the ring or move her head off center line. The only thing she did well was block with her face.

I love Ronda Rousey. I love her even more now than I did before she got her butt whooped. But with her far reaching resources and ample financial means, she has to get a better striking trainer. Lord knows she works hard enough. Or at least used to before all the media frame.

I'm rootin' for her all the way.


----------



## JowGaWolf

ShotoNoob said:


> Well at the end of the day... it's you against the opponent.... not your "other kung fu brother."


 That's true.   But I do have a specific person that I'm targeted.  Not in a bad way.  He trains at a Sanda school and they say he's really fast.  I want to see just how fast he is.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Buka said:


> Ronda's coach did not prepare her for Holm. Not one little bit. Ronda showed no clue in how to cut down the ring or move her head off center line. The only thing she did well was block with her face.
> 
> I love Ronda Rousey. I love her even more now than I did before she got her butt whooped. But with her far reaching resources and ample financial means, she has to get a better striking trainer. Lord knows she works hard enough. Or at least used to before all the media frame.
> 
> I'm rootin' for her all the way.


Your statement about training hard is what got me the most because we see it on a non professional level where good people train hard in low quality schools or in fake martial arts. Hard training is useless without correct training.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Dinkydoo said:


> I don't think a quick return to fighting after suffering a defeat like that (arguably for the first time), is a good idea. She has some soul searching to do after last weekend because not only did the better opponent on the night win, her self belief in her striking ability, the fight strategy and preparation was wrong. That means what she was being told by her team was incorrect and therefore it seems like some changes need to be made


  I personally wouldn't and don't.  When someone gets the best of me it's time to give training and strategy some real heavy thought.  I bury myself in many hours of video analysis no so much to see what I was doing wrong but to better understand my opponent and why my strategy didn't work.  I looked for missed opportunities and ask myself why I didn't see or why I was unaware of the opportunity.

A one size fits all fight strategy is rarely possible. The what if's have to be accounted for and there needs to be more than one plan of attack.   Questions like, "What  is the plan if I can't close the gap without eating heavy punches" should always have an viable answer or at a minimum a process that will allow an answer to be found during battle.  Rousey would have given herself some analytical time if she didn't press so much.  She also has to learn how to kick.  If her kicking ability is so terrible then they will need to figure something out.  Legs often have a longer reach than the opponents arms and from what I saw in the video there were lots of opportunities to throw some low kicks to the back of the leg. Knot up the calf muscle and the opponent will move less.


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> As a businessman.... Jackson is the BEST in MMA.  But then he's lauded as being Mr, Nice Guy for everyone.... I've seen the same BS in my current karate org.... Promotion of the top echelon is rampant over the students.  The great character trait about Ja Gow is that he readily fesses up to his ego.... that's someone prospective students should value.....
> 
> 
> \
> Well thanks for the input.... I really don't follow Jackson closely.... I'm a traditional karate guy who Greg Jackson wouldn't want a guest appearance from me...  The way to outstrike Holly Holm or Jon Jones is traditional karate... the kind I have posted on.  Ja Gow might give them a run for the money....
> \
> I have literally shocked  the so-called tough guys at my current dojo; as well as elsewhere....  But with all the 'disagrees' and 'dislikes' I get like here; who is willing to train to traditional karate standards...???
> \
> In closing, Jackson DOES run the best MMA coaching business... With only Holly Holm & Jone Jones in the gym though, his income statement would be pretty bleak with out the regulars....   My dojo same commercial realization....



I am sure he is open to the concept.  We have karate guys make guest apearances in our gym from time to time.

I think you shoud go train at jacksons gym.  You have a method that is too good to not be shared


----------



## paitingman

I think this fight was just very well prepared for and executed by Holm.

They knew there were holes in Ronda's game that they could exploit.

1. the main one being:
    She has shown little to no WRESTLING skills.
    her judo is world class, but her ability to fight for position outside of clinching and grip fighting is pretty absent.
    you never see her execute leg takedowns or shoot. something that could've been a big help when getting 
    outboxed.

Holm knew she had the superior footwork and striking, and clearly Ronda and her camp thought she could compete with her in those areas, but no. 

Rousey is an amazing athlete and should branch out and be exposed to more MMA focused coaching and really working on showcasing some wrestling skills


----------



## Dinkydoo

JowGaWolf said:


> I personally wouldn't and don't.  When someone gets the best of me it's time to give training and strategy some real heavy thought.  I bury myself in many hours of video analysis no so much to see what I was doing wrong but to better understand my opponent and why my strategy didn't work.  I looked for missed opportunities and ask myself why I didn't see or why I was unaware of the opportunity.



This is similar to my approach, although I usually don't have the video evidence to look back over I try to examine why I struggled to get inside, I was hit hard there AGAIN and what techniques I just wasn't getting off. I then try to incorporate solo drills into my training plan to remedy these issues before getting involved in heavy sparring again.



> A one size fits all fight strategy is rarely possible. The what if's have to be accounted for and there needs to be more than one plan of attack.   Questions like, "What  is the plan if I can't close the gap without eating heavy punches" should always have an viable answer or at a minimum a process that will allow an answer to be found during battle.  Rousey would have given herself some analytical time if she didn't press so much.  She also has to learn how to kick.  If her kicking ability is so terrible then they will need to figure something out.  Legs often have a longer reach than the opponents arms and from what I saw in the video there were lots of opportunities to throw some low kicks to the back of the leg. Knot up the calf muscle and the opponent will move less.



Funnily enough my MMA coach mentioned Rousey might have had more luck attacking the legs too, but from a takedown perspective rather than low kicking. Unfortunately for RR she either didn't prepare any other strategies or she was waiting for the nod from her head coach to change things up, which didn't happen.

I hope we see her fight in the UFC again. I had a feeling that she might retire if she'd beaten Holms at the weekend and go fulltime into movies or WWE. Maybe the nature of this defeat will influence her decision one way or the other.


----------



## ShotoNoob

JowGaWolf said:


> That's true.   But I do have a specific person that I'm targeted.  Not in a bad way.  He trains at a Sanda school and they say he's really fast.  I want to see just how fast he is.


\
We are really on the same wavelength.... My feeling was that stepping into the shoes (proverbially speaking) as a sparring partner... now this WAS the time to do a little reality testing.... I think you felt the same way....
\
HEY.  Rather that listen to me pontificate here about generalized thoughts.... Why don't you and Tony D., for instance, start a thread on Ronda Rousey's fortunes post-UFC 193.  Namely, what would be your & Tony's tactical breakdowns of specifically where HOnda should take her UFC competition strategy.  Mull it over....


----------



## ShotoNoob

Buka said:


> Ronda's coach did not prepare her for Holm. Not one little bit. Ronda showed no clue in how to cut down the ring or move her head off center line. The only thing she did well was block with her face.


\
This is where you east coast guys fall off the wagon....  Why wait 'til the hidden tiger (Holm), to prepare?  And on your last sentence.... that's typical for MMA competitors....  [the smiley isn't for you... it's for the MMA conventions we see in the UFC, etc.]
\
YOu guys have gone on & on when I criticized the Tarverdyan method (focus mitts, etc.) .... which you all said was standard striking training.... works inthe 'real' world you all said....  unlike kihon karate....  Ya'll said you used the focus pad approach... which has been universally accepted in boxing, karate and so on & so on....


----------



## ShotoNoob

JowGaWolf said:


> Your statement about training hard is what got me the most because we see it on a non professional level where good people train hard in low quality schools or in fake martial arts. Hard training is useless without correct training.


\
RE: Just what's being said about Honda & Coach Tarverdyan re the Holm Championship bout....


----------



## ShotoNoob

paitingman said:


> Rousey is an amazing athlete and should branch out and be exposed to more MMA focused coaching and really working on showcasing some wrestling skills


\
The cross training in wrestling is always one for consideration.  Especially since the venue is MMA.  That could be developed...
\
Why not, though, do Judo the way traditional sets out, requires?  A skilled judoka should be able to penetrate Holm's footwork.  The whole per-requisite for enacting a Judo throw is to be able to enter.  Again, I got pounded by youse guys about the issue of how keeping the Gracie's, the skilled BJJ players @ bay - was nigh impossible.... how i was a fool & a troll.
\
Now, we see really good boxing tactics destroy a 'world class' judoka... in your words...  Ya'll got caught in your own trap of contradicting yourselves by posting conversationally.  Ronda, a world class grappler - destroyed by a (ugh) striker. Told you I had mental discipline....
\
Remember the Matt Bryers / BJJ discussions when I was relatively new here @ MT?


----------



## ShotoNoob

The interest here @ Martial Talk is about appealing to a variety of styles... I understand.  I find it both puzzling & irritating though... that there is this tenancy to categorize Judo as insufficient to address a skilled striker.... when BJJ (a relatively new martial phenomena) is literally blasted as the answer to self defense against strikers.... we have a number of loyal BJJ practitioners here... I know.
\
Why is BJJ so problematic for strikers... when Judo is now labeled _ineffective_ in ability to clinch or for grip fighting (as paitingman says)?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Here's UFC 192 Open Workout preview.




\
Here's Honda in her demo.




\
Looks like decent MMA striking to me... what Honda is doing. Looks precisely in line with what all the other UFC superstars are doing.... and what ya'll affirmed when I signed on....
\
Note Honda hits hard... something Holm has been criticized about... no real power in strikes... particularly hands.... though some highlight reel KOs Holm has shown.
\
Now here is Shotonoob in female form (so apropos) training 1-step kumite to beat either Honda or Holm...  My Kaitlynn Jenner transformation -ha ha...ha.




Yep boys, that's how it's done (in principle).  Ya'll have panned & banned this kind of kumite training from BJJ ,whatever you-all do, MMA... the MMA world outright rejects it too.... see the YT vids (above) of UFC Greats doing what they do.
\
So what's the gameplan on striking for Honda / Holm rematch?  Honda has a minimum of 6 months.... likely a year or more... for you guys to get her act together... now that ya''ll have fired dear Edmond...  poor Edmund,,, he's now in with Shotonoob.... in the garbage can....
\
Postnote:  Hey, see Hendricks doing the boxing version of _kata_.  Shadowboxing = kata, ya know....


----------



## ShotoNoob

Questions, questions, questions... fodder for a new strategy for Honda thead....
\
Bye & bye... Ronda striking form is better in her demos compared to what she actually performs in large in the Octagon.  Proper 1-step kumite would take the demo-highlight Honda out in seconds... not 6 minutes like Holm did so spectacularly... That's the power of traditional karate.  But too hard to do... to hard to train....
\
So it's up to you'se guys now....


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> I understand. I find it both puzzling & irritating though... that there is this* tenancy* to categorize Judo as insufficient to address a skilled striker.... )



I didn't realise we'd moved into discussing renting houses and apartments?

Shotonoob, I'm afraid you're ranting and not a lot of it makes sense, either in the writing of it or the having a go at the posters on here. I've seen a lot of stuff about Rousey posted up and none of them call her 'Honda', why not just give her the courtesy of using her given name.
One step 'kumite'? nonsense. Just as a matter of interest how many pro MMA fighters have you trained or even amateur fighters or any fighters in anything?


----------



## JowGaWolf

ShotoNoob said:


> Here's UFC 192 Open Workout preview.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> \
> Here's Honda in her demo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> \
> Looks like decent MMA striking to me... what Honda is doing. Looks precisely in line with what all the other UFC superstars are doing.... and what ya'll affirmed when I signed on....
> \
> Note Honda hits hard... something Holm has been criticized about... no real power in strikes... particularly hands.... though some highlight reel KOs Holm has shown.
> \
> Now here is Shotonoob in female form (so apropos) training 1-step kumite to beat either Honda or Holm...  My Kaitlynn Jenner transformation -ha ha...ha.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep boys, that's how it's done (in principle).  Ya'll have panned & banned this kind of kumite training from BJJ ,whatever you-all do, MMA... the MMA world outright rejects it too.... see the YT vids (above) of UFC Greats doing what they do.
> \
> So what's the gameplan on striking for Honda / Holm rematch?  Honda has a minimum of 6 months.... likely a year or more... for you guys to get her act together... now that ya''ll have fired dear Edmond...  poor Edmund,,, he's now in with Shotonoob.... in the garbage can....
> \
> Postnote:  Hey, see Hendricks doing the boxing version of _kata_.  Shadowboxing = kata, ya know....


One steps were never meant for fighting with.  The only purpose of one steps is to train movement so you don't have to think about what comes next in a real fight.  One steps train muscle memory not fighting.


----------



## elder999

JowGaWolf said:


> One steps were never meant for fighting with.  The only purpose of one steps is to train movement so you don't have to think about what comes next in a real fight.  One steps train muscle memory not fighting.



Actually, one steps are really about training _ma-ai_......


----------



## JowGaWolf

elder999 said:


> Actually, one steps are really about training _ma-ai_......


I'll take your word on it.  The information that I found about ma-ai spoke of distance and timing and I'm not sure how one-steps fit into that since distance and timing are not constant. You may know something that I'm not aware of, so I'll take your word on it.


----------



## Tez3

Dear lord, I wish all the American commentators, fan boys etc etc would stop saying Rousey is bummed! it has us rolling around laughing until we cry. What it means in American is really not what it means elsewhere and puts a whole different complexion on why she'd hiding her face and staying quiet!!


----------



## Danny T

Who is Honda you keep referring to?

As to Ronda's striking skills, they have some power but her fundamentals are not very good. (as many of the grapplers turned strikers).
Ronda has done very well because she pressured and played her game. Grappling.
In this past fight the opponent was able to withstand the pressure with her footwork and distancing control exposing Rhonda's lack of striking defense and timing control. Ronda is a competitor; she will either learn from this, make changes and return better or she will loose again.


----------



## Dinkydoo

Tez3 said:


> Dear lord, I wish all the American commentators, fan boys etc etc would stop saying Rousey is bummed! it has us rolling around laughing until we cry. What it means in American is really not what it means elsewhere and puts a whole different complexion on why she'd hiding her face and staying quiet!!


Oh man, a knockout followed by a bumming!?!?! RR's Saturday night was even worse than I thought


----------



## paitingman

ShotoNoob said:


> Why is BJJ so problematic for strikers... when Judo is now labeled _ineffective_ in ability to clinch or for grip fighting (as paitingman says)?



you should read my post again. i think you misunderstood me. what I said was clinching and grip fighting are where her judo shines most...
and OUTSIDE of those two areas (clinching/grip fighting) her ability to fight for position hasn't been shown to be too effective.


----------



## Hanzou

Danny T said:


> Who is Honda you keep referring to?
> 
> As to Ronda's striking skills, they have some power but her fundamentals are not very good. (as many of the grapplers turned strikers).
> Ronda has done very well because she pressured and played her game. Grappling.
> In this past fight the opponent was able to withstand the pressure with her footwork and distancing control exposing Rhonda's lack of striking defense and timing control. Ronda is a competitor; she will either learn from this, make changes and return better or she will loose again.



Hopefully she fires her boxing coach.


----------



## ShotoNoob

JowGaWolf said:


> One steps were never meant for fighting with.  The only purpose of one steps is to train movement so you don't have to think about what comes next in a real fight.  One steps train muscle memory not fighting.


\
In you opinion....  aka your sparring-centric curriculum....


----------



## ShotoNoob

Danny T said:


> Who is Honda you keep referring to?


\
HOnda is a nickname ronda has been given by MMA fans.... Kinda catchy, don't you think...???



Danny T said:


> As to Ronda's striking skills, they have some power but her fundamentals are not very good. (as many of the grapplers turned strikers).


\
Right Danny. I will qualify your reply a bit further in that she ("Honda") looks good in practice with Edmond.  Transition to the Ocatagon against RESISTING OPPONENT... she goes downhill... degenerates often to brawling.  So do most of the MMA competitors (strikers & grapplers) we see publicly.... Jai Harman no.... his striking was very good....  Gave you a thumbs up on your MMA striking, Jai....


Danny T said:


> Ronda has done very well because she pressured and played her game.


\
Yes, dead on.  And most sensible fans & commentators see this as you do


Danny T said:


> Grappling.In this past fight the opponent was able to withstand the pressure with her footwork and distancing control exposing Rhonda's lack of striking defense and timing control.


\
Yeah, I've said repeatedly here the bona karate would do the same... actually better against a grappler-dependent MMA fighter, opponent.
\
Where HOlm surprised me is how she ramped up the intensity of her striking.... really pounding Ronda....  Traditional karate readily goes much higher in intensity....  It was the intensity of Holm hitting repeatedly & hitting hard.... basically took the fight by end of Round 1.... tactically speaking...


Danny T said:


> Ronda is a competitor; she will either learn from this, make changes and return better or she will loose again.


\
Danny, now you're talking to your students....  but good lesson no doubt....  I would be interested in seeing a thread where a striker specialist like Ja Gow and say you on the grappling end.  In fact, your style encompasses the divide between grappling & striking... so another grappling specialist like Tony D.... the three of you could put up a very good Thead on how Ronda should approach her MMA strategies going forward.... toward a successful return....
\
Final Note:  On of my big criticisms of Greg Jackson / Winky duo... is the fan base goes ga ga over the "Big Name," like these two have some special lock on MMA coaching....  My money is on Jai Harman, from his demos on striking alone.... he could provide the tactical input to Ronda...  I think Ronda could step up her striking a long way by studying under Jai Harman.....  and he has a mixed striking style resume to boot.  Make sense....?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> Dear lord, I wish all the American commentators, fan boys etc etc would stop saying Rousey is bummed! it has us rolling around laughing until we cry. What it means in American is really not what it means elsewhere and puts a whole different complexion on why she'd hiding her face and staying quiet!!


\
Tez3... I agree with your perspective here... The best thing HOnda can do right now is lay low.  Good, good, point....


----------



## elder999

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> HOnda is a nickname ronda has been given by MMA fans.... Kinda catchy, don't you think...???



She doesn't like it.

Used to live in her Honda Accord. That's where it comes from. 

So, no. Not so catchy.


----------



## ShotoNoob

elder999 said:


> She doesn't like it.
> 
> Used to live in her Honda Accord. That's where it comes from.
> 
> So, no. Not so catchy.


\
Pleaseeeee....


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Danny T said:


> Who is Honda you keep referring to?



It's a joke in some places online (like reddit.com/r/bjj), pronouncing the "R" in Ronda as if she were Brazilian.



ShotoNoob said:


> I will qualify your reply a bit further in that she ("Honda") looks good in practice with Edmond. Transition to the Ocatagon against RESISTING OPPONENT... she goes downhill... degenerates often to brawling. *So do most of the MMA competitors (strikers & grapplers) we see publicly*



I'll have to strongly disagree on that.



ShotoNoob said:


> I would be interested in seeing a thread where a striker specialist like Ja Gow and say you on the grappling end. In fact, your style encompasses the divide between grappling & striking... so another grappling specialist like Tony D.... the three of you could put up a very good Thead on how Ronda should approach her MMA strategies going forward.... toward a successful return....



Given that Ronda's grappling is far superior to my own, I would be pretty presumptuous to offer her advice on that topic.


----------



## elder999

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Pleaseeeee....



Hey, it's true-so called Portuguese pronunciations not withstanding, she used to live in her Honda Accord, and she doesn't like it.


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> Questions, questions, questions... fodder for a new strategy for Honda thead....
> \
> Bye & bye... Ronda striking form is better in her demos compared to what she actually performs in large in the Octagon.  Proper 1-step kumite would take the demo-highlight Honda out in seconds... not 6 minutes like Holm did so spectacularly... That's the power of traditional karate.  But too hard to do... to hard to train....
> \
> So it's up to you'se guys now....



Why it's it too hard to train?


----------



## ShotoNoob

JowGaWolf said:


> A one size fits all fight strategy is rarely possible.


\
That's wise for most practitioners


JowGaWolf said:


> The what if's have to be accounted for and there needs to be more than one plan of attack.


\
Already accounted for in the traditional version of the Judo curriculum....


JowGaWolf said:


> Questions like, "What  is the plan if I can't close the gap without eating heavy punches" should always have an viable answer or at a minimum a process that will allow an answer to be found during battle.


\
Already in the traditional karate curriculum....   certainly in the boxing "sweet science" curriculum.  The GRacie's advertised they had this nailed (NOT!).


JowGaWolf said:


> Rousey would have given herself some analytical time if she didn't press so much.


\
Yeah, this is kind of implicit in how you train.  Pressing the action is precisely though, the best route for a Judoka to do.  Hurling oneself across the Octagon.... now Judo has gone out the windowcompletely ... bad BJJ too TMU.


JowGaWolf said:


> She also has to learn how to kick.  If her kicking ability is so terrible then they will need to figure something out.  Legs often have a longer reach than the opponents arms and from what I saw in the video there were lots of opportunities to throw some low kicks to the back of the leg. Knot up the calf muscle and the opponent will move less.


\
Tactically ideal.  HOwever, I'm not the greatest kicker.... I can take people apart with my hands....  Am I prepared to kick tactically, absolutely as you say...


----------



## ShotoNoob

elder999 said:


> Hey, it's true-so called Portuguese pronunciations not withstanding, she used to live in her Honda Accord, and she doesn't like it.


\
Ha ha... I accede to you as the MT global ambassador....


----------



## elder999

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Pleaseeeee....


(And, in addition to being kinda psycho, haven't you noticed how sensitive she is?)
She auctioned the thing off, last year.

Ronda Rousey auctioning Honda she used to live in.

UFC Bantamweight Champion Ronda Rousey's Honda Accord LX 2005


----------



## Tony Dismukes

elder999 said:


> Hey, it's true-so called Portuguese pronunciations not withstanding, she used to live in her Honda Accord, and she doesn't like it.


Didn't know that.

I wasn't using the name anyway, since it seems like a fairly lame joke, but now I'll be certain not to in the future.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> HOnda is a nickname ronda has been given by MMA fans.... Kinda catchy, don't you think...???




Hell, I don't like her and I think that calling her that is stupid and disrespectful. What's with the upper case letters on some of your words?



ShotoNoob said:


> . So do most of the MMA competitors (strikers & grapplers) we see publicly....


I don't think you know what you are talking about really.



ShotoNoob said:


> Yeah, I've said repeatedly here the bona karate would do the same...



What is 'bona' karate?


----------



## ShotoNoob

edit


----------



## ShotoNoob

elder999 said:


> Hey, it's true-so called Portuguese pronunciations not withstanding, she used to live in her Honda Accord, and she doesn't like it.


\
Incidentally, I'm a big Ronda fan.  I appreciate her aggressive, sport champion mindset....  As a rule... useless against a mentally disciplined opponent like me.  I owe Holm my support for proving that unequivocally....
\
If I put my coach hat on, Ronda would best serve herself by branching out from Mom... who gave her a great start... and coaching base.  Ronda needs to direct her attention from being a bad *** to being a smart *** as the next step.... Jackson & Winky are smart asses.... very smart, nonetheless, about being asses. I think a striking trainor like Jai Harman could fill that void, without all the MMA celebrity ego nonsense  that Jackson / Winky carry as baggage...  A first step philosophically, would be to confine the personal attitude as a promotional necessary.
\
Holm demonstrated hands down that the "MEAN gIRLS" schlock isn't going cut it against honed, professional competitors....
\
A traditional karate mindset would benefit Ronda tremendously.  I don't see HOnda taking karate right now.  So I think a fellow MMA competitor & instructor like Jai Harman is the best route to do the kind of tactical methods say Ja Gow speaks off...  Jai's style is readily applicable to MMA... the Muay thai an optimal style striking< IMHO.


----------



## ShotoNoob

paitingman said:


> you should read my post again. i think you misunderstood me. what I said was clinching and grip fighting are where her judo shines most...
> and OUTSIDE of those two areas (clinching/grip fighting) her ability to fight for position hasn't been shown to be too effective.


\
Ya'll should read my posts again (&again &again)... Said a mouthful didn't ya....


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> . useless against a mentally disciplined opponent like me.



Not that you are one to boast of course...........



ShotoNoob said:


> Holm demonstrated hands down that the "MEAN gIRLS" schlock isn't going cut it against honed, professional competitors....



WHAT?



ShotoNoob said:


> A traditional karate mindset would benefit Ronda tremendously. I don't see HOnda taking karate right now



What's with the 'HOnda' thing? If you are a big fan you certainly aren't showing her any respect.

'a traditional karate mind-set'?  what's that when it's at home? do you mean disciplined? technique focused ? well she hasn't got anywhere in MMA has she with her current training.........>shakes head<

To be good enough at karate  and get to a stage, being taught properly, where she could use just karate as her stand up would take years. Better for her to go off to Thailand for Muay Thai or The Netherlands for kick boxing training.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tony Dismukes said:


> It's a joke in some places online (like reddit.com/r/bjj), pronouncing the "R" in Ronda as if she were Brazilian.


\
Don't really know the source... I feel like Holly Holm does about it... Holly speaks my position very well...


Tony Dismukes said:


> I'll have to strongly disagree on that.


\
Predictable.


Tony Dismukes said:


> Given that Ronda's grappling is far superior to my own, I would be pretty presumptuous to offer her advice on that topic.


\
Ok, then don't... I'll use Danny's T. answer here...


----------



## ShotoNoob

elder999 said:


> (And, in addition to being kinda psycho, haven't you noticed how sensitive she is?)
> She auctioned the thing off, last year.
> 
> Ronda Rousey auctioning Honda she used to live in.
> 
> UFC Bantamweight Champion Ronda Rousey's Honda Accord LX 2005


\
Again, Holly Holm speaks my mind professionally on such.  I respect Honda as an MMA competitor, and the successes she has worked hard for.  Very hard.
\
NO doubt now she can afford to upgrade her 'wheels.'


----------



## ShotoNoob

Here's some sanctioned sport karate.  Wonder how HOlm (her footwork) would fare against female karateka's doing this?




\
Holm was asked @ aRousey Post-fight interview... if she believed she had the skills to take on Machida.  Well here's some female karate competitors... Machida point fighting style.... some nice tactics by Ms. Brunette Ponytail...
\
Sport karate closing-the-distance. Ja Gow...  The hands down guard seen here also dis-proves your intuitive thinking about hands up guard being quicker necessarily....


----------



## elder999

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Incidentally, I'm a big Ronda fan.  I appreciate her aggressive, sport champion mindset....  As a rule... useless against a mentally disciplined opponent like me.  I owe Holm my support for proving that unequivocally....



Can't say she proved that. Not so sure what kind of fan you are when
\


ShotoNoob said:


> \
> I don't see *HO*nda taking karate right now.



....you keep calling her a "Ho," and thinking no one notices......


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Here's some sanctioned sport karate.  Wonder how HOlm (her footwork) would fare against female karateka's doing this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> \
> Holm was asked @ aRousey Post-fight interview... if she believed she had the skills to take on Machida.  Well here's some female karate competitors... Machida point fighting style.... some nice tactics by Ms. Brunette Ponytail...
> \
> Sport karate closing-the-distance. Ja Gow...  The hands down guard seen here also dis-proves your intuitive thinking about hands up guard being quicker necessarily....



That's not sparring that's playing. Sports karate is nothing close to MMA, it isn't even close to proper karate!


----------



## Tez3

elder999 said:


> Can't say she proved that. Not so sure what kind of fan you are when
> \
> 
> 
> ....you keep calling her a "Ho," and thinking no one notices......



He does it with 'HOlm' as well.


----------



## JowGaWolf

ShotoNoob said:


> Here's some sanctioned sport karate.  Wonder how HOlm (her footwork) would fare against female karateka's doing this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> \
> Holm was asked @ aRousey Post-fight interview... if she believed she had the skills to take on Machida.  Well here's some female karate competitors... Machida point fighting style.... some nice tactics by Ms. Brunette Ponytail...
> \
> Sport karate closing-the-distance. Ja Gow...  The hands down guard seen here also dis-proves your intuitive thinking about hands up guard being quicker necessarily....


I'll tell you how I'll handle it. 
1. Take the body hit and deliver a stronger hit to the face then give 5 other punches
2. Sweep my opponent while all of that jumping up and down is going on.
3. Redirect the punch and then punch my opponent in the face then give 5 other punches.
4. Take the body hit and hit my opponent in the face while she's celebrating her point score.

All of the tactics that are shown in the video are very wrong for MMA or real fighting. It works for point sparring which is why you only see it in point sparring.  Things like turning your back on your opponent is bad habit.  Jumping up and down is bad root and you can only move when you are on the ground.  I did this with a student and I was able to time his hop so that I could take advantage of him being in the air.  If you play it in slow motion you'll see just how those hops actually delays the increases the reaction time. They are also punching without defending. There are no parries and blocks against the punches.

ShotoNoob.. Here's my ultimate truth.  If my opponent has his or her hands down, then I'm going to hit or kick them in the face.


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> ShotoNoob.. Here's my ultimate truth. If my opponent has his or her hands down, then I'm going to hit or kick them in the face.



It would be rude not to!


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> It would be rude not to!


Very rude.
In my school we say. "If you get punched in the face then it's your fault because you should have blocked it."  The funny part about it is that we no longer feel bad about hitting someone in the face; he/she should have blocked it. lol.


----------



## Dinkydoo

JowGaWolf said:


> Very rude.
> In my school we say. "If you get punched in the face then it's your fault because you should have blocked it."  The funny part about it is that we no longer feel bad about hitting someone in the face; he/she should have blocked it. lol.


I've even found myself apologising to my training partner at times like this - "Crap, sorry I should have blocked that"


----------



## kuniggety

ShotoNoob said:


> Sport karate closing-the-distance. Ja Gow...  The hands down guard seen here also dis-proves your intuitive thinking about hands up guard being quicker necessarily....



JowGa hit it on the head pretty good but that video was awful if you're trying to say that is how someone should fight in MMA. They have zero base... They're basically asking for a grappler to take them to the ground. Hands down is never a good idea in a real fight. Some "sport" fighters put them down to bait as the real points usually come from the kicks (notice the number of high kicks used which would be terrible in MMA). Think of fencing. They don't stand there with their blade to the side. Why? Because it takes much longer for them to swing their arm/blade than it does for a flick of a wrist to parry.


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## Danny T

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> HOnda is a nickname ronda has been given by MMA fans.... Kinda catchy, don't you think...???


Ah. 
So what is with HO. Distasteful.



ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Right Danny. I will qualify your reply a bit further in that she ("Honda") looks good in practice with Edmond.  Transition to the Ocatagon against RESISTING OPPONENT... she goes downhill... degenerates often to brawling.  So do most of the MMA competitors (strikers & grapplers) we see publicly.... Jai Harman no.... his striking was very good....  Gave you a thumbs up on your MMA striking, Jai....


Actually her striking doesn't look good... even with her coach. A lot of holes in her fundamentals.



ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Danny, now you're talking to your students....  but good lesson no doubt....


Huh..., No. I was writing to the people here. Had nothing to do with my students at all.
Plain and simple either Rhonda will either learn from this and make changes or she will loose again.



ShotoNoob said:


> \
> I think Ronda could step up her striking a long way by studying under Jai Harman.....  and he has a mixed striking style resume to boot.  Make sense....?


Not until Jai learns to close the huge holes in his striking style. He continues to strike in the manner he does he won't go far in fight sports competition.


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## JowGaWolf

kuniggety said:


> JowGa hit it on the head pretty good but that video was awful if you're trying to say that is how someone should fight in MMA. They have zero base... They're basically asking for a grappler to take them to the ground. Hands down is never a good idea in a real fight. Some "sport" fighters put them down to bait as the real points usually come from the kicks (notice the number of high kicks used which would be terrible in MMA). Think of fencing. They don't stand there with their blade to the side. Why? Because it takes much longer for them to swing their arm/blade than it does for a flick of a wrist to parry.





kuniggety said:


> Because it takes much longer for them to swing their arm


You are so correct about how much longer it takes.  One would think that the position from hand down to hands up blocking wouldn't be a big difference but when looking at time that it takes in 10ths of a second. 1/10th of a second could be the difference between blocking a head shot and getting knocked out by one.  I often watch fight videos in slow motion to see just how fast attacks are and how slow reactions times are in relation to the attack.


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## JowGaWolf

Danny T said:


> Ah.
> So what is with HO. Distasteful.
> 
> 
> Actually her striking doesn't look good... even with her coach. A lot of holes in her fundamentals.
> 
> 
> Huh..., No. I was writing to the people here. Had nothing to do with my students at all.
> Plain and simple either Rhonda will either learn from this and make changes or she will loose again.
> 
> 
> Not until Jai learns to close the huge holes in his striking style. He continues to strike in the manner he does he won't go far in fight sports competition.


Did I read correctly?  Rousey is being compared to Jai Harman.  Even Jai would think "that's crazy."  Out of all of the superior strikers out there it's Jai that would greatly increase Rousey's sparring ability?  Holm would knock Jai out so I definitely don't think Jai is the go to person for striking lessons lol.  I thought Shotonoob didn't think highly of Jai Harman.


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## Steve

elder999 said:


> She doesn't like it.
> 
> Used to live in her Honda Accord. That's where it comes from.
> 
> So, no. Not so catchy.


Whenever I've heard it, it's a nod to her grappling skills and the Brazilian way of pronouncing the 'R' in one's name (e.g. Royce, Rickson, Renzo)

Most MMA fans would have no idea she ever lived in her car.


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## Buka

JowGaWolf said:


> Very rude.
> In my school we say. "If you get punched in the face then it's your fault because you should have blocked it."  The funny part about it is that we no longer feel bad about hitting someone in the face; he/she should have blocked it. lol.



Tongue firmly in cheek, we always used to say, _blocking's for pussies._


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## JowGaWolf

Buka said:


> Tongue firmly in cheek, we always used to say, _blocking's for pussies._


Ha ha.. how long did that last?


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## Koshiki

Buka said:


> Tongue firmly in cheek, we always used to say, _blocking's for pussies._



We always call it a secret black belt technique, the "Tao Face Block." Prevents undue wear and tear on the hands and arms, which as we know, are essential in striking and grappling.


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## drop bear

Chin parry.


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## Buka

JowGaWolf said:


> Ha ha.. how long did that last?



Forty years, give or take. All in fun. Heck, might as well have some fun when you're getting punched.


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## Buka

Dana White says the rematch will be the next fight in that division.
I think it's an all around bad idea. Any thoughts?

Dana White: Ronda Rousey is definitely getting an immediate rematch against Holly Holm


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## JowGaWolf

Buka said:


> Dana White says the rematch will be the next fight in that division.
> I think it's an all around bad idea. Any thoughts?
> 
> Dana White: Ronda Rousey is definitely getting an immediate rematch against Holly Holm


It's a business and they want to do a rematch while the fight is still hot.  Rousey needs to get a new coach and work on some other skill sets, like kicking.  My guess is that kicking doesn't come natural for her. If this is correct, then I'm not sure if she'll have enough time to learn how to kick.   Some people just aren't coordinated which means it could literally take a year to learn how to kick with any significant speed and power.   Hopefully she'll get a boxing coach to help her work on her defense.  I'll give that a year as well. 
Anything less than that is going to just put Rousey in the same situation that she was when she lost.

She doesn't have the same footwork and foot speed which means she'll need to learn how to fight smarter.


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## Dinkydoo

Unless RR changes her strategy and HH's takedown defence isn't on point, an immediate rematch will likely end the same way - there just isn't enough time to make up the difference in striking there is between the two fighters in ~ 3 months. 

I would be really impressed if RR managed to find holes in HH's game that allowed her to change the range of the fight without taking lots of shots to the head - I'd have to put money on Rousey finishing Holm by submission in that scenario. 

On first hearing this I thought "Aw no, a big money spinner that will probably signal the end for RR in UFC after being soundly beaten twice in a row" ... but now, I think it might be interesting.


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## jks9199

I agree; an immediate rematch is a bad idea.  It wasn't a close loss.  There's no compelling case that says she deserves an immediate rematch; she should earn it.  

Not only that, but Rousey is committed to at least on movie.  Why should Holm sit idle until Rousey is available to fight again?  Is Dana White so afraid of what might happen with a fighter he hasn't hyped (anyone know how much of Rousey as a business he owns/controls? and how that compares to Holm?) so much?

Honestly, as was said above, if Rousey loses a rematch as badly as she did this match, you have to figure she's pretty much done.  Or any pretense of credibility in the UFC promotions is done...


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