# Bogu kUMITE



## The Kai (Mar 8, 2005)

I  know there are couple of practioners of this type of fighting.  I am considering making incorporating this type of idea for higher levels.  Acouple of questions
1.)  Are there cheaper alternatives to the "traditional" gear
2.) Can you feel impact?  Enough so to keep you honest
3.)  are there meets or get togethers where one could spar around?

Thank any input apprieciated


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## Nashi no ki (Mar 8, 2005)

Well depending on what you think is traditional protection, maybe the kendo armour like protection, I would recommend anzen super safe bogu(helmet and chest protector), if the chest protector is still too pricy try a teakwondo chest protector. We dont use hand padding or things like that, so bare fist.

About impact, yes when technique is properly applied a nice bang accompinies a heavy feeling of impact. It can really hurt sometimes. (I even went KO once from a yodan zuki)

There are ofcourse cons and pros, big pro I think is that you can get in close with a technique and that you can feel/ see/ experience what happens to the technique when applied in full force.


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## Yeti (Mar 8, 2005)

I agree completely with Nashi no ki. I once got a broken rib from a mawashi geri to the chest.    :vu:   This was using a traditional TKD chest protector when I was young and stupid and fighting another individual of the same mentality...control was not even a consideration.  However, if you plan on introducing this to your senior students, this lack of control should be a non-issue.

-Mike


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## RRouuselot (Mar 8, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I know there are couple of practioners of this type of fighting. I am considering making incorporating this type of idea for higher levels. Acouple of questions
> 1.)  Are there cheaper alternatives to the "traditional" gear
> 2.) Can you feel impact?  Enough so to keep you honest
> 3.)  are there meets or get togethers where one could spar around?
> ...


 1) ebogu.com has some good eals on "modern" bogu. There is a link to their site on my website. http://www.geocities.com/ryushikan/tokyodojo.html

 2) Yes, you can feel it a bit. On my webpage you can see some photos, the bottom row shows how much you can feel bogu.  One of the students is getting knocked down  by a punch. 

 3) You will just have to check in your area. The number of folks that still do this type of training is getting less and and less. More people are going for non-contact type sparring.


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## RRouuselot (Mar 8, 2005)

Nashi no ki said:
			
		

> Well depending on what you think is traditional protection, maybe the kendo armour like protection,
> 
> 1)I would recommend anzen super safe bogu(helmet and chest protector), if the chest protector is still too pricy try a teakwondo chest protector. We dont use hand padding or things like that, so bare fist.
> 
> ...


 1)The bubble masks from Anzen tend to break. I have seen at 3 that collapsed on to guys noses. Not a pretty sight. Plus they fog up and are hard to breath out of.

    The type of helmet below works with boxing or MMA type gloves. They dont normally break and are easy to breath out of.


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## Nashi no ki (Mar 9, 2005)

Actually there is a new kind of "bubble" helmet, which should be safer, and doesnt fog up.


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## RRouuselot (Mar 9, 2005)

Nashi no ki said:
			
		

> Actually there is a new kind of "bubble" helmet, which should be safer, and doesnt fog up.


 
 Do you have a website or a photo of one?


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## RRouuselot (Mar 9, 2005)

A few bogu kumite photos:


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## The Kai (Mar 9, 2005)

Are you wearing the kendo bogu??

Would there be any events, clinics the the midwest??


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## TimoS (Mar 9, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> A few bogu kumite photos



I'll add one of mine. This was taken during our tuesday morning kumite training class (every tuesday morning from 7 - 8:30)


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## RRouuselot (Mar 9, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Are you wearing the kendo bogu??
> 
> Would there be any events, clinics the the midwest??


 The top photo they are wearing metal bogu helmets that are similar to kendo helmets.
 The bottom 2 photos they are wearing helmets like the one in the other photo I posted.


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## Nashi no ki (Mar 9, 2005)

Not in action but still;



http://www7.plala.or.jp/shishi44/ruru3.htm

The above is a link to a japanese page, which shows the different kinds of helmets, scroll half way down the page. Picture number 4 is the newer version of picture number 3, which seems better.


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## RRouuselot (Mar 9, 2005)

They are basically the same mask. One is made by Super safe and the other by a different company. The site describes the rules and possible uses for each helmet. It says which organizations use which type. The author goes on to describe that 3 & 4 are safe, however, I have seen 3 & 4 types break right across peoples noses leaving some pretty big cuts and dont recommend them for hard punches. 

    We actually use #6 on that page which is used by Nihon Kempo and various Law Enforcement here in Japan.


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## The Kai (Mar 10, 2005)

Does the helmet you posted protect your head?  (i'm not expecting 100 percent)
In advance i Thank you for your time.
The body protecter can you still feel impact
you don't wear regular boxing gloves do you?


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## The Kai (Mar 10, 2005)

Timo S.

What helmet are you guys wearing??
Gloves??


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## TimoS (Mar 10, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Timo S.
> 
> What helmet are you guys wearing??
> Gloves??



The helmet is the same one Robert showed here previously, but that is only a practise helmet for us. In competition were using this kind of helmet 





The picture is from 2000 Finnish championships. As for gloves, everybody seems use different types. Some people are using boxing gloves


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## Nashi no ki (Mar 12, 2005)

Just an other remark, like in any kumite, of course a bit of restrain is also necessary in bogu kumite, specially concerning jodan waza.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 12, 2005)

What are the rules for Bogu Kumite?


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## RRouuselot (Mar 12, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> What are the rules for Bogu Kumite?


 For us it's:
 No strikes to to the groin, back, back of the head. Other than those you can hit as hard as you want.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 12, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> For us it's:
> No strikes to to the groin, back, back of the head. Other than those you can hit as hard as you want.



How about leg kicks?  Are knees viable targets?  How about nage?  Do the matches continue when they go to the ground?


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## RRouuselot (Mar 12, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> How about leg kicks? Are knees viable targets? How about nage? Do the matches continue when they go to the ground?


 
 Knee kicks are not encouraged but occasionally happen. We try not to do stuff like that because of possible injury....plus you wouldn't want it done to you either. 
 Takedowns, knockdowns are allowed.
 If we use the black padded helemets and MMA gloves we let it go to the ground and goes until submission.


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## TimoS (Mar 13, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> How about leg kicks?  Are knees viable targets?  How about nage?  Do the matches continue when they go to the ground?



Our rules prohibit those. The explanation I've been given for not allowing throws is that when using kendo-style helmets (which can also be used in competitions and I think they use those in Japan), the throws could damage (or even break) the other guys neck.

So our rules allow strikes and kicks only to the protected areas


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## Makalakumu (Mar 13, 2005)

Whoops, double post.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 13, 2005)

TimoS said:
			
		

> Our rules prohibit those. The explanation I've been given for not allowing throws is that when using kendo-style helmets (which can also be used in competitions and I think they use those in Japan), the throws could damage (or even break) the other guys neck.
> 
> So our rules allow strikes and kicks only to the protected areas



We do a similar type of sparring at my dojang and at my teacher's dojang.  The rank limitation is red belt (or about 3 years training) before someone can begin.

We do not allow knee kicks or leg kicks because of the crippling injury potential.  We allow all foot sweeps and some throws.  Some throws are banned for safety reasons.  Doing ukemi in full gear can present some difficulty, especially the head first falls.

When a fight goes to the ground, we let it go until submission.  

We call this type of sparring full contact and the contact is heavy, but it is controlled (so its not really full).  But I have been knocked down by heavy blows before.

Do your schools spar multiple people in this fashion?  At Cho Dan we have to spar two people.  At Ee Dan it becomes three.  At Sam Dan it's four.  This is where things really get dicey...

Here is an interesting question.  I have a pretty long laundry list of injuries from this type of training (and from other more extreme types).  Four of these injuries have prevented me from training for six months or more in my MA carreer.  What do you think about the cost to benifit ratio of this type of training?  Is the cost of injury greater then the benefit received?

I used to think that injuries were just something that happened and when they happened you healed and then jumped back in.  Now I have a carreer and two children.  The last two broken bone incidents I've had came from this type of sparring.  I broke two ribs and my clavicle.  On both of these occasions, I was out of work and my wife had to take care of both of my children.  I began to see how these injuries were incredibly unfair to my family.  What do you think?

upnorthkyosa


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## TimoS (Mar 13, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Do your schools spar multiple people in this fashion?  At Cho Dan we have to spar two people.  At Ee Dan it becomes three.  At Sam Dan it's four.  This is where things really get dicey...



Not usually, but it would be interesting. Then again, I am only a 1. kyu so I haven't been around that long  I have heard our sensei talk about how some people at his teacher's dojo in Japan spar: one person has to fight two people, but not at the same time: they take turns, so that while one is fighting, the other rests and then after some time (can't remember off-hand how long time) they switch places


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## The Kai (Mar 18, 2005)

Upnorthkyosa raised a interesting point, how is the injury rate?  and how does that affect your sparring?

The 1st school I went to did kickboxing every class, you would up fighting around various injuries and bruises.  Eventually you got real conservative while sparring.  Years later when working with the Muay Thai people I was surprised to see they did'nt spar hard for the most part.  Unless they were getting paid to spar hard!
Do you guys have a practice mode vs competetion mode?  Or is it throwing leather as hard as you can


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## TimoS (Mar 18, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Do you guys have a practice mode vs competetion mode?  Or is it throwing leather as hard as you can



We have a competition mode and a practice mode. I wouldn't want to go against one guy from our club in full competition mode every tuesday morning  During last years Finnish championships he punched one guy so hard his helmet's metal grid (protecting his face) actually bent  :ultracool  Served the guy right, though, because he had just defeated me  :wink2:


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## RyuKyu_Kempo (Nov 24, 2006)

I'm not sure how old this thread is, but @ my dojo we use the following:
Combat Sports international chest protector
Everlast boxing headgear wear a metal face cage (we made these actually by attaching a face cage made for softball to the head gear)
title boxing kempo gloves
combat sports shin & instep gloves
cup and mouth peice

rules we use allow for leg kicks, knees, take downs and grappling.


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