# Erroneous Aikido, The Amazing Story of..



## Jenna

So Aikido does not work.  You have seen the videos.  Ain't no lies on Youtube.  Put a little Tchaikovsky over the visuals and you have instant ballet de-caf and performed lovingly by men with long hair who are in touch with theirselves and by girls who are soft and sweet and imagine theirselves as rather quite dangerous underneath..  So Aikido does not work.  FACT.. Oh no I am not being sarcarrrrstic, me I think Aikido does work and but I would add a big smelly caveat to that because I think it only works if you train it to work.  Someone in Brian's "Real Aikido" thread mentioned the idea of Aikido being very "big" and that for me is one of the worst issues with what I would call Erroneous Aikido [it is a form very widely practiced and but sshhhh it is kind of secret like the dark arts stuff concealed and enshrouded in that nobody is allowed to speak of!]  Now I am just giving my opinion here, that is all. 

*Q. What is Erroneous Aikido?*
*A.* Erroneous Aikido is indeed very big, utilises half the mats in a series of seemingly random turning movements that serve only to impress people that are watching through the window and dizzy everyone else participating.  Of course Erroneous Aikido is practiced in THREE dimensions and so I would see the Erroneous Aikido practitioners reach levels of airborne activity that are unconquerable to other mere ground based martial arts.  Furthermore, Erroneous Aikido can have an element of martial philosophising and [scuse the word] "spirituality" and which is, I have noticed, remarkably easy for practitioners of the style to translate into sanctimoniousness and snobbery.. 

*Q. Where does Erroneous Aikido originate from?*
*A.* I do not know where the system of Erroneous Aikido originated from.  Wikipedia says it came from a place called Ignorance, a nation formed by Major Marshall Fallacy and now no longer recognised by the international community as having any validity.  Haha though you know how Wikipedia is at best!  

*Q. Can you recommend a good Erroneous Aikido school or club in my area?*
*A.* Fortunately Erroneous Aikido is widespread in its outreach.  Like most of you, I have practiced the style [without perhaps initially realising, such is the stealthy nature of its didactics].  With a sense of sadness I had watched many of my contemporaries subsequently leave Erroneous Aikido to pursue careers in fields as diverse as ballet and modern dance, studio stunt work and various forms of the clergy.
*
Q. What are the benefits of Erroneous Aikido?*
*A.* Fortunately most practitioners of Erroneous Aikido do not realise the true error in their forms and are free to blissfully enjoy the gentle bonding with hippie friends that every peaceful martial art should.  

*Q. Are there drawbacks?*
*A.* Sadly, some others might reach that point of enlightenment, perhaps upon realising that the man trying to wrest their purse or wallet from their soft, manicured hands is perversely uncompliant when the pin is deftly applied to his wrist, does not respect the circle nor even the notion of universal harmony.  Sadly for those practitioners of Erroneous Aikido, their journey is over.  They can progress no further in that style and are often forced into more, should we say, "barbaric" and cruel forms of martial art.

*Q. What is the career progression for an awakened Erroneous Aikidoka?*
*A.* Take heart! for the most unconvinced of Erroneous Aikido practitioners, they are the ones that perhaps during their training had had the epiphany moments, realising the potential in Aikido as Ueshiba presented his ideas.  Perhaps they were sceptical of their own practices [caught the wrong end of many a tsk tsk for accidentally hurting someone in the dojo - sound familiar?].  Sceptical of Erroneous Aikido, yet finding a core and seeds of a potent martial art within their style.  For these pracitioners, they will not leave for other shores where the natives disavow the flowing hakama and jump on each other, potentially HURTING their training partners, and calling it a martial discipline [Philistines!]  These practitioners will take the good core from their Erroneous Aikido and they will make it grow into something altogether more practical; something closer to the original idea; something that sloughs off the nonsense, limp-wristed Erroneous Aikido pedagogies.  Then THESE become the Aikidoka that are fit to call themselves.

 Jenna x


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## K-man

Jenna, as I would have expected you have cut to the quick! Inciteful and succinct, how can any of us follow such wizardary of expression?  I am just so glad I am on your side, or should that be  .. by your side?


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## Xue Sheng

Jenna said:


> So Aikido does not work. You have seen the videos. Ain't no lies on Youtube. Put a little Tchaikovsky over the visuals and you have instant ballet de-caf and performed lovingly by men with long hair who are in touch with theirselves and by girls who are soft and sweet and imagine theirselves as rather quite dangerous underneath.. So Aikido does not work. FACT.. Oh no I am not being sarcarrrrstic, me I think Aikido does work and but I would add a big smelly caveat to that because I think it only works if you train it to work. Someone in Brian's "Real Aikido" thread mentioned the idea of Aikido being very "big" and that for me is one of the worst issues with what I would call Erroneous Aikido [it is a form very widely practiced and but sshhhh it is kind of secret like the dark arts stuff concealed and enshrouded in that nobody is allowed to speak of!] Now I am just giving my opinion here, that is all.
> 
> *Q. What is Erroneous Aikido?*
> A. Erroneous Aikido is indeed very big, utilises half the mats in a series of seemingly random turning movements that serve only to impress people that are watching through the window and dizzy everyone else participating. Of course Erroneous Aikido is practiced in THREE dimensions and so I would see the Erroneous Aikido practitioners reach levels of airborne activity that are unconquerable to other mere ground based martial arts. Furthermore, Erroneous Aikido can have an element of martial philosophising and [scuse the word] "spirituality" and which is, I have noticed, remarkably easy for practitioners of the style to translate into sanctimoniousness and snobbery..


 
This would explain why early in my CMA training I had little or no respect for Aikido. I was able to easily defeat any Aikido person I sparred. That was until a woman half my size that apparently did not practice Erroneous Aikido slammed me to the floor a few times. I thought that was very cool and I have been rather impressed by Aikido ever sense but I have always been very worried about Aikido due to a couple of things.

First the over emphasis of spirituality by many that train Aikido; Spirituality seems to matter more than the Martial art and I too have seen that translate into sanctimoniousness and snobbery.



Jenna said:


> *Q. Are there drawbacks?*
> A. Sadly, some others might reach that point of enlightenment, perhaps upon realising that the man trying to wrest their purse or wallet from their soft, manicured hands is perversely uncompliant when the pin is deftly applied to his wrist, does not respect the circle nor even the notion of universal harmony. Sadly for those practitioners of Erroneous Aikido, their journey is over. They can progress no further in that style and are often forced into more, should we say, "barbaric" and cruel forms of martial art.
> 
> *Q. What is the career progression for an awakened Erroneous Aikidoka?*
> A. Take heart! for the most unconvinced of Erroneous Aikido practitioners, they are the ones that perhaps during their training had had the epiphany moments, realising the potential in Aikido as Ueshiba presented his ideas. Perhaps they were sceptical of their own practices [caught the wrong end of many a tsk tsk for accidentally hurting someone in the dojo - sound familiar?]. Sceptical of Erroneous Aikido, yet finding a core and seeds of a potent martial art within their style. For these pracitioners, they will not leave for other shores where the natives disavow the flowing hakama and jump on each other, potentially HURTING their training partners, and calling it a martial discipline [Philistines!] These practitioners will take the good core from their Erroneous Aikido and they will make it grow into something altogether more practical; something closer to the original idea; something that sloughs off the nonsense, limp-wristed Erroneous Aikido pedagogies. Then THESE become the Aikidoka that are fit to call themselves.


 
And the other one you have touched on above but it is not only Aikido that has fallen to this. Training hurts and it is supposed to. No you are not suppose to go out a bust up your training partner and send them to the hospital but if you train any MA properly it will push you beyond your limits and you WILL get hurt form time to time and if you are not hurt (talking minor hurt here people) while training in the controlled atmosphere of the school (example get punched in the face while sparing) if you are ever unlucky enough to have to use what you train for real and the other guy hits you in the face you will be in so much shock that no amount of light (soft) training will ever prepare you for it and you will lose BIGTIME.

And lastly



Jenna said:


> *Q. What are the benefits of Erroneous Aikido?*
> A. Fortunately most practitioners of Erroneous Aikido do not realise the true error in their forms and are free to blissfully enjoy the gentle bonding with *hippie* friends that every peaceful martial art should.


 
Hippies...nough said


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## punisher73

Totally agree, why would they call Ueshiba's training hall "hell dojo" if it was practiced how most people practice it today?

Look through his book "Budo" at the pictures of him performing techniques and you see HIM grabbing the person sometimes to perform the technique and striking vital points to apply the lock/throw.  Early students talk about when he grabbed their wrist to throw them they had big bruises where he grabbed because he was so strong.

In the book "Invincible Warrior" (biography of Ueshiba) it talks about him cutting and carrying wood and doing other things to increase his strength and condition his body.  Yet, now all you here is that weight training, etc. will ruin your technique.


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## Jenna

Thank you all for taking time to read my terrible ranting I am sorry and but I am grateful to you all too thank you!!

*@K-Man*, thank you so much for replying and but I am not joking you know!  I am conscious of sounding snobbish too as though I am some big expert.  I had for a while sent a number of mails to uploaders on Youtube bout this [yes I had called it Erroneous Aikido] and some said the flamboyance was for the camera only and some said to bugger off and mind my business haha and which is ok I think Erroneous Aikido is like many false orthodoxies, not so happy to have critics!  So I am torn, should I just **** off and stop watching then and which was the response from a club in the north of England or maybe then I should accept the offer, Youre so great lets see how you do it.  

I accept that I am poacher-turned-gamekeeper since I know too well that I was myself a doer of Erroneous Aikido until I had it [quite abruptly] demonstrated to me the fallacy of my self-assuredness.  

*@Xue Sheng*, thank you also and I would not want to be misunderstood, I would have no issue with someone incorporating a non-physical aspect into their martial art; I think it is beneficial to step outside the strikes and the pins and realise how performing such actions is helping you holistically as a practitioner [my opinion only].  And but with Aikido, there is often [and I would cite the place where I am talking bout only I would not want to seem petty] often there is an equating of the ideas of Ueshiba with a softness, a stand-offishness [a femininity is a term I had used previously].  It is almost as if the Erroneous Aikidoka has a contempt for fighting and then this is perceived by doers of other arts as the Erroneous Aikidoka having a total despising for other martial arts altogether.  This to me is where the sanctimoniousness comes from and it misses the point that when it comes to it, the real, proper aikidoka can stand up and use their skills to fight.  I think that is a ridiculously basic notion missed by the Erroneous Aikidoka..

And yes, in the beginning I did not like being chastened when someone got hurt in training.  That was never my intention though to me I got hurt BECAUSE I was trying to learn how to fight and defend myself.  My dad taught me how to box and yes I wore headgear and gumshields and but at no stage was not getting hurt the major contributing factor in the training.  Yet last class I visited one of the seniors whinged off because he had had a collision of feet [his student having accidentally stamped him when unbalanced pffft..] then the student feels guilty or incompetent or both <- this is essential practice in Erroneous Aikido and from what you say, in other arts also perhaps? 

*@punisher73* oh yes that is exactly right and bang on the money! I am glad you remembered that bout the Kobukan see that is a well forgotten and buried part of history and is not found anywhere in the Erroneous Aikido handbook.  I am so happy you mentioned that!!  Thank you I could not add to that cept to thank you again and give you lots of exclamation marks!!!!!  

Jenna x


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## Xue Sheng

Jenna said:


> Thank you all for taking time to read my terrible ranting I am sorry and but I am grateful to you all too thank you!!


 
Not that I would ever rant mind you 

But that was not a rant it was a rather good post IMO that summed up your frustration rather well.



Jenna said:


> @Xue Sheng, thank you also and I would not want to be misunderstood, I would have no issue with someone incorporating a non-physical aspect into their martial art; I think it is beneficial to step outside the strikes and the pins and realise how performing such actions is helping you holistically as a practitioner [my opinion only]. And but with Aikido, there is often [and I would cite the place where I am talking bout only I would not want to seem petty] often there is an equating of the ideas of Ueshiba with a softness, a stand-offishness [a femininity is a term I had used previously]. It is almost as if the Erroneous Aikidoka has a contempt for fighting and then this is perceived by doers of other arts as the Erroneous Aikidoka having a total despising for other martial arts altogether. This to me is where the sanctimoniousness comes from and it misses the point that when it comes to it, the real, proper aikidoka can stand up and use their skills to fight. I think that is a ridiculously basic notion missed by the Erroneous Aikidoka..
> 
> And yes, in the beginning I did not like being chastened when someone got hurt in training. That was never my intention though to me I got hurt BECAUSE I was trying to learn how to fight and defend myself. My dad taught me how to box and yes I wore headgear and gumshields and but at no stage was not getting hurt the major contributing factor in the training. Yet last class I visited one of the seniors whinged off because he had had a collision of feet [his student having accidentally stamped him when unbalanced pffft..] then the student feels guilty or incompetent or both <- this is essential practice in Erroneous Aikido and from what you say, in other arts also perhaps?



I have no problem with someone incorporating the non-physical part either. Actually it is already incorporated in many arts from Japan and China, based on the Eastern way of thinking it is intrinsic. My problem only occurs when the non-physical is stressed over the physical to the point of looking down upon the physical side of any MA or thinking that the non-physical is the superior part of any MA when it is at best equal. Taijiquan has virtually been destroyed by this attitude. I have told this story before on MT (likely to  many times) about a guy I did Taiji Tuishou with many years ago that was absolutely horrible and afterwards I stated discussing the art and the martial arts of it with him to which he responded I dont DO martial arts!!!! I DO taiji and stormed out in an arrogant huff.

So Aikido is not alone in this and many MA styles and stylists do not train them like they are supposed to because they hurt and they dont want to get hurt. And in some cases it is a legitimate concern since we all have jobs we need to show up at and a serious MA injury could cause you some major issues but They dont even want to get a bruise and getting hit in the face is just not supposed to happen at all. This is why my last Wing Chun Sifu, who is very good, has no more than a dozen students and my first CMA Sifu has hundreds of students. Train Wing Chun and it hurtstrain with my first Sifu and you can get any certificate you are willing to pay for and there is no pain necessary. 

I once was at a martial arts demo thing and had an Aikijitsu teacher pull me out of a crowd of MAist to demonstrate a lock and takedown and when he tried, it failed. I train taiji and if you grab me I automatically relax (it is hard for me to not relax actually) and he could not do what he wanted to do if I relaxed. Relaxed or not he should have been able to do something, not just tell me I cant relax. 

And lastly my taiji Sifu has been at CMA for over 50 years and he is not a big fan of Aikido based on what little he has seen of it and the videos he has caught on the internet. But he is damn impressed by Ueshiba Morihei and Ueshiba Moriheis high level of skill, he also feels the same way about Judo but is rather impressed by old videos of  Jigoro Kano and Kyuzo Mifune. But then he is not happy with much of the taiji he sees today either, but I am going off topic, sorry


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## Daniel Sullivan

Jenna,

There are some people who's posts just make the world a better place and the day brighter, even when it is pouring rain outside.  You are one of those people.

Great thread!  

Daniel


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## amir

Jenna said:


> So Aikido does not work. You have seen the videos. Ain't no lies on Youtube. Put a little Tchaikovsky over the visuals and you have instant ballet de-caf and performed lovingly by men with long hair who are in touch with theirselves and by girls who are soft and sweet and imagine theirselves as rather quite dangerous underneath.. So Aikido does not work. FACT.. Oh no I am not being sarcarrrrstic, me I think Aikido does work and but I would add a big smelly caveat to that because I think it only works if you train it to work. Someone in Brian's "Real Aikido" thread mentioned the idea of Aikido being very "big" and that for me is one of the worst issues with what I would call Erroneous Aikido [it is a form very widely practiced and but sshhhh it is kind of secret like the dark arts stuff concealed and enshrouded in that nobody is allowed to speak of!] Now I am just giving my opinion here, that is all.
> 
> *Q. What is Erroneous Aikido?*
> *A.* Erroneous Aikido is indeed very big, utilises half the mats in a series of seemingly random turning movements that serve only to impress people that are watching through the window and dizzy everyone else participating. Of course Erroneous Aikido is practiced in THREE dimensions and so I would see the Erroneous Aikido practitioners reach levels of airborne activity that are unconquerable to other mere ground based martial arts. Furthermore, Erroneous Aikido can have an element of martial philosophising and [scuse the word] "spirituality" and which is, I have noticed, remarkably easy for practitioners of the style to translate into sanctimoniousness and snobbery..
> 
> *Q. Where does Erroneous Aikido originate from?*
> *A.* I do not know where the system of Erroneous Aikido originated from. Wikipedia says it came from a place called Ignorance, a nation formed by Major Marshall Fallacy and now no longer recognised by the international community as having any validity. Haha though you know how Wikipedia is at best!
> 
> *Q. Can you recommend a good Erroneous Aikido school or club in my area?*
> *A.* Fortunately Erroneous Aikido is widespread in its outreach. Like most of you, I have practiced the style [without perhaps initially realising, such is the stealthy nature of its didactics]. With a sense of sadness I had watched many of my contemporaries subsequently leave Erroneous Aikido to pursue careers in fields as diverse as ballet and modern dance, studio stunt work and various forms of the clergy.
> 
> *Q. What are the benefits of Erroneous Aikido?*
> *A.* Fortunately most practitioners of Erroneous Aikido do not realise the true error in their forms and are free to blissfully enjoy the gentle bonding with hippie friends that every peaceful martial art should.
> 
> *Q. Are there drawbacks?*
> *A.* Sadly, some others might reach that point of enlightenment, perhaps upon realising that the man trying to wrest their purse or wallet from their soft, manicured hands is perversely uncompliant when the pin is deftly applied to his wrist, does not respect the circle nor even the notion of universal harmony. Sadly for those practitioners of Erroneous Aikido, their journey is over. They can progress no further in that style and are often forced into more, should we say, "barbaric" and cruel forms of martial art.
> 
> *Q. What is the career progression for an awakened Erroneous Aikidoka?*
> *A.* Take heart! for the most unconvinced of Erroneous Aikido practitioners, they are the ones that perhaps during their training had had the epiphany moments, realising the potential in Aikido as Ueshiba presented his ideas. Perhaps they were sceptical of their own practices [caught the wrong end of many a tsk tsk for accidentally hurting someone in the dojo - sound familiar?]. Sceptical of Erroneous Aikido, yet finding a core and seeds of a potent martial art within their style. For these pracitioners, they will not leave for other shores where the natives disavow the flowing hakama and jump on each other, potentially HURTING their training partners, and calling it a martial discipline [Philistines!] These practitioners will take the good core from their Erroneous Aikido and they will make it grow into something altogether more practical; something closer to the original idea; something that sloughs off the nonsense, limp-wristed Erroneous Aikido pedagogies. Then THESE become the Aikidoka that are fit to call themselves.
> 
> Jenna x


 

Coming from Korindo Aikido, which is normally noted for its small circles of movement and practicality. You can guess my opinion on the big circles in most situations (every rule has execeptions).


On the other hand, because I come from a differnt style, much much smaller in size. I dare not call the larger styles "*Erroneous". *

Amir


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## Dan Anderson

My 2 cents worth.  The evolution of Erroneous or Big Aikido, I believe, is as follows.

If you read anything about the history of O-Sensei you'll know he was a "rough neck 'n' thug."  This is not an insult but an assessment and compliment.  O-Sensei's upbringing, martial arts wise, made him into real deal.  Also, at 5 feet tall and two hundred pounds and in-shape, he was no one to mess with.  Take a look at the demo photos of his 1936 (?) book.  His throws, takedwons and locks were usually preceded by a punch to the face or body. 

Fast forward a number of years and you get his religeous epiphany.  This combined with his continued progress in skill turns _*his aikido*_ into an effortless, flowing type of art.  From my observation over the past 43 years with many masters of different arts is that their personal art becomes smaller, the angles tighter, the alignments more fine tuned so that it appears that they aren't doing much of anything but boy, does it hurt!  The senior students take the small actions and either mimic them without going through the experience necessary to make them effective or turn them into larger actions in order to try to figure out what the hell their teacher is doing.

This is the art which has been taught over the years.  The only problem with it that what is being taught (from my admittedly small experience with aikido) is the end result without having gone through the preceding steps - the rough and tumble daitoryu aikijutsu of Sokaku Takeda (or any other like kind, real deal art).

Hmmm, it looks like this turned into 5 cents.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## bluekey88

You see this with the various schools of aikido.  Those headed by students who wroked with and seperated from ueshiba sesei in the early years tend to be "rougher" than those that worked with ueshiba sensei in his later years.

I, interestingly enough, am a former Aikidoka who was taught a blend of erroneous and true Aikido.  A lot of what we did worked, but (as is often the criticism of Aikido), was trained poorly.  Sometimes, i would go to my sensei with a question about how to deal with something.  for example, kicks, didn;t do much against them.  She went on to emonstrate several applications to common kicks.   However, in dealing jabs and barrages of punches, her things was to just bat them away and play defense.  A tactic that one cannot maintain indefintiely without tkaing the intiiative at some point (we needed to work more on atemi in my estimation).  

Eventually, I was forced to leave aikido and I studied around...tried to come back to aikido only to be confronted with a situation where I saw a high ranking, hihgly skilled, famous instructor BS his way through a demonstration.  I quit training that day.

However, I've found more and more that apply the principles i learned all those years ago in the practice of my current arts.  My amrtial arts are stronger for my Aikido experience.  I suppose it's not Aikido...but it's owkring for me.  Go figure.

Peace,
Erik


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## dancingalone

This is an interesting discussion.  Not too much I can add except by noting that I am an aikido student... and I teach Goju-ryu karate-do.  In the aikido class I attend, the teacher freely acknowledges that the techniques she teaches are more likely to be executed successfully with atemi included.  From time to time, she requests me to give a seminar on correct striking principles, though I only get a few takers.


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## Andy Moynihan

Well whenever I hear the accusation that Aikido doesn't work, my first response is "Which Aikido?"

The Hombu style which I guess is headed up By Uyeshiba's son? The freaky Omoto-kyo cultish religion type? Yoshinkan? Yoseikan? Nihon Goshin? Tomiki-Ryu? 

Does no one remember that when Uyeshiba had taught his main few disciples all he had, that he then told them each to go "find their own Aikido?" 

"Oh, but there's an overreliance on cooperative partners" Well find one of the Pre-epiphany schools.

"But you don't get to pressure test because there's no competitive or randori aspect" No? Go check out Tomiki-Ryu which DOES have randori.

If you find yourself curious about Aikido's principles of efficiency--go try it. If you like it but you know what's missing, go add it. What's hard?

Remember--Judo has a pretty good reputation in MMA circles who are ostensibly a hard assed bunch. And Judo's founder, Jigoro Kano, back in the way back when before all this splintering occurred, Went and saw Uyeshiba give a demonstration of Aikido( though I'm unclear if this is what he called it by this time), approached Uyeshiba afterward, and said to him "This is what I was trying to do ".


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## K-man

bluekey88 said:


> Sometimes, I would go to my sensei with a question about how to deal with something, for example, kicks, didn't do much against them. She went on to demonstrate several applications to common kicks. However, in dealing jabs and barrages of punches, her things was to just bat them away and play defense. A tactic that one cannot maintain indefintiely without taking the initiative at some point (we needed to work more on atemi in my estimation).


That sort of defence will not work with any style. Eventually something will get through and you will go down. The biggest problem is exhaustion. It takes more energy to defend than to attack and you also give up the initiative. Aikido teaches, and it applies to any other discipline although I never saw it formally taught in Goju, is evade the attack, enter with irimi, strike with kokyu. Works for me. :asian:


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## amir

Dan Anderson said:


> My 2 cents worth. The evolution of Erroneous or Big Aikido, I believe, is as follows.
> 
> If you read anything about the history of O-Sensei you'll know he was a "rough neck 'n' thug." This is not an insult but an assessment and compliment. O-Sensei's upbringing, martial arts wise, made him into real deal. Also, at 5 feet tall and two hundred pounds and in-shape, he was no one to mess with. Take a look at the demo photos of his 1936 (?) book. His throws, takedwons and locks were usually preceded by a punch to the face or body.
> 
> Fast forward a number of years and you get his religeous epiphany. This combined with his continued progress in skill turns _*his aikido*_ into an effortless, flowing type of art. From my observation over the past 43 years with many masters of different arts is that their personal art becomes smaller, the angles tighter, the alignments more fine tuned so that it appears that they aren't doing much of anything but boy, does it hurt! The senior students take the small actions and either mimic them without going through the experience necessary to make them effective or turn them into larger actions in order to try to figure out what the hell their teacher is doing.
> 
> ...
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


 
Dan

Your post apears to make sense and is logical, but Ueshiba history is very well recorded. His "religeous epiphany" occured between 1920 and 1929 and not after 1940.


Amir


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## amir

K-man said:


> That sort of defence will not work with any style. Eventually something will get through and you will go down. The biggest problem is exhaustion. It takes more energy to defend than to attack and you also give up the initiative. Aikido teaches, and it applies to any other discipline although I never saw it formally taught in Goju, is evade the attack, enter with irimi, strike with kokyu. Works for me. :asian:


 

Normally, I agree with you. I would not recommend anyone to just defend without taking the initiative as a tactics to follow. And an Aikidoka should be able to identify a suki and irimi, or to create some Kuzushi and utilize it directly.

Just remember reality is stranger then anything. I recall the story of another practitioner of our dojo who actually did just that - evaded his neighbor who attacked him with rage, for something like 5 minutes. As he described it, he hardly broke any sweat, while the attacker lost his breath and gave up from exhaustion. Neither was young at the time (the practitioner only started to train post his 40's).
Apparently, in that particular case, the practitioner felt he is not willing to cause damage (for obvious reasons), and on the other hand, he found out he was not able to restrain the attacker otherwise. Or perhaps, he was not good enough.

Amir


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## bluekey88

K-man said:


> That sort of defence will not work with any style. Eventually something will get through and you will go down. The biggest problem is exhaustion. It takes more energy to defend than to attack and you also give up the initiative. Aikido teaches, and it applies to any other discipline although I never saw it formally taught in Goju, is evade the attack, enter with irimi, strike with kokyu. Works for me. :asian:


 
Exactly.  Of course, as a young, bright-eyed student....I didn't know that at the time.  I learned the hard way that a patient opponnent will slowly pick you apart.  You either have to bait you oppoennet into over-committing to an attack, or you need to create an opportunity to take the initaitve, break their balance/structure, then the fight is yours.

Like I said, my study of other arts has made what I leanredin Aikido useful.  I can strike, I can move, I can create the opportunities...and then i can get a lock or throw, etc.  I KNOW Aikido works...it just needs to be trained correctly with intent.  Oncwe you can do that...THEN you can be nice.

Peace,
Erik


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## K-man

amir said:


> Normally, I agree with you. I would not recommend anyone to just defend without taking the initiative as a tactics to follow. And an Aikidoka should be able to identify a suki and irimi, or to create some Kuzushi and utilize it directly.
> 
> Just remember reality is stranger then anything. I recall the story of another practitioner of our dojo who actually did just that - evaded his neighbor who attacked him with rage, for something like 5 minutes. As he described it, he hardly broke any sweat, while the attacker lost his breath and gave up from exhaustion. *Neither was young at the time (the practitioner only started to train post his 40's).*
> Apparently, in that particular case, the practitioner felt he is not willing to cause damage (for obvious reasons), and on the other hand, he found out he was not able to restrain the attacker otherwise. Or perhaps, he was not good enough.
> 
> Amir


Mind you, it does nothing for neighbourly relations to apply your best MA technique and smack thy neighbour on the nose.  In this situation, where the practitioner was not feeling under threat, he probably undertook the best course of action.
As to the age issue, be aware that some of us were about 20 years older than those *young* fellas when we started aikido!! :asian:


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## amir

K-man said:


> Mind you, it does nothing for neighbourly relations to apply your best MA technique and smack thy neighbour on the nose. In this situation, where the practitioner was not feeling under threat, he probably undertook the best course of action.


 
Agree
But this was exactly my point in bringing this case forward.
Reality actually creates situations in which the good solution would apear improbable while giving advice. 
I do not recomend relaying only on defensive movement. But, in this example, it had actually provided the best possible solution.




K-man said:


> As to the age issue, be aware that some of us were about 20 years older than those *young* fellas when we started aikido!! :asian:


 :asian:


----------



## theletch1

The last several posts bring to mind a thought... at what point in the defensive technique of aikido does the technique go from purely defensive to either offensive or brutally stopping the attacker.  It seems that many folks think of a "purely defensive" technique as being one that only allows evasion of the blow or stopping the attack without stopping the attacker.  The locks of aikido, when taken to their extreme, are indeed defensive techniques but can be used to stop the attacker by destroying the weapon being used. The throws of aikido often end with the back of the head smacking the ground or the face being firmly planted into the pavement.  Perhaps it's just the idea that many folks have that defensive means weak... who knows.


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## Yari

theletch1 said:


> The last several posts bring to mind a thought... at what point in the defensive technique of aikido does the technique go from purely defensive to either offensive or brutally stopping the attacker. It seems that many folks think of a "purely defensive" technique as being one that only allows evasion of the blow or stopping the attack without stopping the attacker. The locks of aikido, when taken to their extreme, are indeed defensive techniques but can be used to stop the attacker by destroying the weapon being used. The throws of aikido often end with the back of the head smacking the ground or the face being firmly planted into the pavement. Perhaps it's just the idea that many folks have that defensive means weak... who knows.


 

Your on to something very important here. I bellive since you don't know when your attacker is "finished" you'll never know for sure that the attack is over. and giving the  attacker a second chance (knowing know that he knows you can defend yourself), is going to be hard.

So it mght be true that defending the initial attack can stop THAT attack, but the knowledge balance and escalation will change with each second you  wait "for the next attack". 

But by placing the attacker into a position (perferably physical), that can let him not attack will ensure that your defence had the wanted effect. 

I there belive that an aikido techique is not only the irimi and atemi, but all the way through (what ever it is/takes). And this can make Aikido a very nasty style to be confronted with.

/Yari


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## theletch1

My thoughts exactly, Yari.  The Erroneous Aikido precepts that Jenna set forth so clearly in the OP would seem to belie the fact that aikido consists of more than huge flowing circles used to deflect/redirect attack after attack with no-one getting injured in the process.  In a world where evading the first couple of attacks would leave your attacker standing back and saying "Ok, you've parried my attacks I give up" there'd be no need for any defense at all.  The finish is something that many folks don't train enough and fewer understand.


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## Andy Moynihan

Not strictly Aikido, but classical jujutsu had a concept called the "O-waza"( big/great/major technique) which, rather than concentrate only on one specific skillset, dealt with an attack with 4 consistent, specific steps

*initial block/parry/blend/defense of whatever kind

*Atemi--if it drops them, bonus, if not, their nervous system has something else to think about while you proceed with the real technique

*real technique( joint break, throw, other "manstopper" move)

*Finish them with atemi if they aren't finished already

Aikido being directly descended from a classical jujutsu ryu (Daito-ryu), I can see no reason why the "O-waza" concept would not be able to translate over.


----------



## Boyd Ritchie

Suenaka Sensei  is in my opinion, following the teaching and spirit of his master O'Sensei more so than others I have seen and trained with.  He says that if your Aikido is not street effective it is not Aikido. His book "complete aikido" is a great read and very insightful from an aikidoka that has been through hundreds of real fights.


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## amir

Andy Moynihan said:


> Not strictly Aikido, but classical jujutsu had a concept called the "O-waza"( big/great/major technique) which, rather than concentrate only on one specific skillset, dealt with an attack with 4 consistent, specific steps





Andy Moynihan said:


> *initial block/parry/blend/defense of whatever kind
> 
> *Atemi--if it drops them, bonus, if not, their nervous system has something else to think about while you proceed with the real technique
> 
> *real technique( joint break, throw, other "manstopper" move)
> 
> *Finish them with atemi if they aren't finished already
> 
> Aikido being directly descended from a classical jujutsu ryu (Daito-ryu), I can see no reason why the "O-waza" concept would not be able to translate over.




To my understanding and experience, most of the Korindo Aikido techniques are supposed to have the following steps:
* Blend with attacker movement while simultaneously redirecting the attacker and creating Kuzushi (in balance), utilize Atemi if needed to create additional Kuzushi and create a longer opening. At the end of this stage, one should be in a position to apply some techniques, with the attacker attached to him and imbalanced.
* perform a technique, or change due to attacker reactions (the latter implies he was not really imbalanced). If a technique was performed, the attacker should be locked \ thrown \ with broken limbs or some combination.
* If necessary - finalize the situation with control over the ground (optional secondary break) or finishing strike.  Note, from my understanding, such an act might be extremely illegal in most countries these days.


For most situations, techniques and variations, the first stages should not take more then one step and a twist, and may even take less movement on the Tori side.




However, as I pointed in earlier post, While this is a logical concept, real situations may call for other solutions (as was in the case of the evasion only from a neighbor in frenzy).


Amir


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## teekin

Jenna my dear, you know I wouldn't lie to you so I will say that my lessons in Aikido were abysmal. OMG. I so so so wanted to do the katana work but could not, would not, keep throwing myself to the mat. The brown belt I was working with could not execute wahtever it was that she was doing such that it produced any effect other that me needing to take a step or two to change my center of gravity. To show me what the drill was I had to  throw myself. In all the drill there were sufficient openings that I could have swept her, struck her, kicked her, choked her or thrown her with a judo move. I could have broken her grip and gotten my own lock or trapped her hand/arm during the throw and taken her arm into a new lock/break. 
 Now this girl is a brown with 6 years training and has 4" and 30lbs on me. I have aggression, maybe denser muscle, better/ stricter teachers, more aggressive training partners and insane pain tollerance. But she should by brown have sufficient technique to NOT require me to throw myself! This girl has the Illusion ( I wish I could make this all sparkley) that she is safe on the street. What is she going to do when some banger won't throw himself when she applies a wrist lock? Bloody hell, I'd much rather she know how to throw a decent chopping low kick or side kick to the knee. Maybe know what a carriage block is? Or how to execute a hip throw if someone grabs you from behind, straight standing armbar? Anything that gives her a prayer, or doesn't lie to her. That's my biggest beef Jenna, women are being sold lies and are going to pay. And pay and pay and pay...................
lori


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## Jenna

Oh thank you all for your discussion points.. I am very grateful and have enjoyed reading thank you!  There are a lot of valid points here! I would just add that I would not apply the Erroneous Aikido label to any particular style of Aikido.  Rather I would apply it to the schools of Aikido that have veered significantly from the original Way of the art.  I am not referring to how they apply that Way, what irks me most are these two things

1. The dilution of efficiency.  I see some frankly ridiculous inefficiency - the high and the wide, the misinterpretation of circular as BIG, and the running around everywhere - that, as contrasted with the efficient [big only WHEN big is required], the directed [you WILL move where I put you], and that done with intent [this is not a game and we will NOT run around here all day playing dodge].

2. The overemphasis on "spirituality".  And do not misunderstand, I would never ever seek to deny anyone a system of belief, and I personally adhere to principles of non-violence as far as I can, yet too many Aikido acquaintances of mine have again imo translated the idea non-violence into a horrible kind of effete, ponytailed softness and stand-offishness - this as contrasted to the DIRECT ENGAGEMENT of the opponent, that the opponent knows there and then that WE ARE NOT PLAYING pacifist and the intent is ever present to put them down and make them comply.

OK so I do not want to rant, though it is quite nice actually having a little rant haha.. Yes actually I did just want to rant.  I feel better now..

And Lori yes you are correct, the practice of Erroneous Aikido [and I would hazard that there are Erroneous forms of most MA] leave the practitioners wanting when **** happens.. And yes I know because I was that person.

Thank you
Janna x


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## Xue Sheng

Jenna said:


> And Lori yes you are correct, the practice of Erroneous Aikido [and I would hazard that there are Erroneous forms of most MA] leave the practitioners wanting when **** happens.


 

Exactly, and sadly this occurs more time and in more styles than most are willing to admit


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## Yari

Xue Sheng said:


> Exactly, and sadly this occurs more time and in more styles than most are willing to admit


 
I do aagree, and mostly it's because people don't want to see "reality" in the eye...

/Yari


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## Telfer

Hello People, Pardon my ignorance...I'm new here and I don't practice Aikido, but I find this thread very interesting on two points.

1. Strength.
2. Compliance.

Is it true that most Aikido schools do not REQUIRE a well above average level of physical strength in their students, particularly of the forearms and abs?

The compliance that everyone complains about...is this entirely about speed and retraction? A fast strike that is instantly retracted would be extremely difficult to grab...as you see in almost all demonstrations.


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## morph4me

Telfer said:


> Hello People, Pardon my ignorance...I'm new here and I don't practice Aikido, but I find this thread very interesting on two points.
> 
> 1. Strength.
> 2. Compliance.
> 
> Is it true that most Aikido schools do not REQUIRE a well above average level of physical strength in their students, particularly of the forearms and abs?
> 
> The compliance that everyone complains about...is this entirely about speed and retraction? A fast strike that is instantly retracted would be extremely difficult to grab...as you see in almost all demonstrations.


 

Aikido doesn't require above average strenth because the techniques are based on principles of structure and balance, and how to use them to your advantage and your opponents disadvantage. When a technique is done properly you find yourself in a bad position without really understanding how you got there.

Compliance is a different situation, many  aikido schools have uke's that fall down because they're"supposed to" or nage's that expect you to fall down or tap out because that's what's "supposed to" happen.  In the better schools compliance isn't really an issue because if nage doesn't do the technique properly uke either stands their or nails them. I've trained with both groups, and I prefer the people that stand there and slap me when I screw up a technique, because I learn more from them.


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## Jenna

morph4me has answered very well.. A++ Hope that is all clear to you?? Say if it is unclear, yes? 

I would only add that strength in the forearms for an aikidoka, while not requisite will help in the long run to sustain many Aikido techniques.  And but the techniques themselves in no way rely upon strength rather they utilise principles of impulse and momentum to redirect the motion of the opponent, and joint manipulation to lock them into the position you require. As for the abs? They are good if you live near a beach I guess  Actually, core strength is important though that would also include leg muscles, obliques, abs and back.  Yet, no, not in a "beach body" way at all 

I am not sure that retraction of strikes is common practice in any MA? Though I could be wrong?? I think WC / KF chain punching is an exception maybe? And but what happens in Aikido is that your opponent, through correctly executed technique will [or should] MAKE you move.  If you move BEFORE you absolutely have to, then you are being compliant, which is bad practice.  These are the lazy practitioners of Erroneous Aikido that "go with the flow" in a BAD way.  Here nobody is served when the two training partners move as though touched by gentle ghosts.  This to me is almost disrespectful to the whole idea of Aikido, of training and of MA!  I would widen that to encompass all martial artists that practice with that mindset, though I would not digress!! 

However, much of this apparent laziness may come from your personal experience, having had a technique done on you many times before, perhaps over many years of practice, you know ahead of time that, say, your shoulder will be dislocated if you do not sink down.  Thus you move too soon, before you have to.  So, although compliance in many cases is simple lazy and bad training, often it is actually a form of self-preservation [kind of like hitting the break-board softly so as not to hurt your knucks rather than following right through and snapping it].  However, that said, this halfhearted way of training also devalues the training, irrespective of what level those training have reached.  Practitioners in this case might as well dance with each other, or go outside for a smoke!

To prove that the Aikido works, nobody moves until they cannot do anything BUT move, then nage is aware of the level of pressure that needs to be applied for his technique to work and uke is aware of his own tolerances.  That is the only way to do Aikido, anything else is just flinching and ballet. 

Sorry if this sounds a bit ranty.. anyone else want to rant.  About anything? I will not feel so bad then haha.. I mean, have you seen the price of DVDs lately?
Jenna x


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## K-man

Jenna said:


> However, much of this apparent laziness may come from your personal experience, having had a technique done on you many times before, perhaps over many years of practice, you know ahead of time that, say, your shoulder will be dislocated if you do not sink down. Thus you move too soon, before you have to. So, although compliance in many cases is simple lazy and bad training, often it is actually a form of self-preservation [kind of like hitting the break-board softly so as not to hurt your knucks rather than following right through and snapping it]. However, that said, this halfhearted way of training also devalues the training, irrespective of what level those training have reached. *Practitioners in this case might as well dance with each other,* *or go outside for a smoke!*


Shame on you Jenna! Surely you know smoking is bad for your health. If all practitioners of 'erroneous aikido' did what you suggest we would end up with either a population explosion or fog like you see in China.


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## Yari

Jenna said:


> ....... I mean, have you seen the price of DVDs lately?
> Jenna x


 
No.... who buy's DVD's?


;-)
/Yari


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## Jenna

*@K-man*.. depends what they are smoking I guess.  Always wondered why those Aikido ppl were so chilled? Long as they do not inhale, as the presidents and politicians say   Eeeeeasy man.. haha..

*@Yari*.. now I cannot think what you mean dear Yari.. unless of course you refer to the quite legally downloading torrents of.. uh, I mean _lots _of good family movies off iTunes.  Yes, however much DVDs are, I am sure they are quite worth every penny haha..


----------



## amir

Telfer said:


> Is it true that most Aikido schools do not REQUIRE a well above average level of physical strength in their students, particularly of the forearms and abs?



This is true , because only minimal strength is required from your muscles to perform a technique. A basic idea in most M.A. I know of is concentrating the entire body structure and muscles of the Tori (technique Executioner in Japanese) on a small part of the Uke (technique recipient in Japanese). This is  true not only for Aikido, but for most M.A. I know of.
Aikido does not have unique technique. All of the Aikido techniques have many variations in many Ju-Jutsu styles. In all of those, this same concept applies.

Beware, the above does not mean Aikido does not require any force at all. You must have some force to hold on to Uke.

Also, the above does not mean that having force is a disadvantage in applying Aikido in a real situation (some make this mistake) - you could use excess force to cover a mistake, and apply a technique despite it. This is one reason people are discouraged from using force while training and learning - at that point, one wishes to uncover his mistakes and learn from them.




Telfer said:


> The compliance that everyone complains about...is this entirely about speed and retraction? A fast strike that is instantly retracted would be extremely difficult to grab...as you see in almost all demonstrations.



No, this is not an issue. Anyone trying to grab a fast strike is making a stupid mistake. If one chooses to relate to the strike and not avoid it altogether, the 
strike should be intercepted/controlled/diverted and only then one may be able to catch the hand or arm.
If I were to connect to the striking hand you would find retraction is not as easy as it normally is, and you would already be unbalanced. You could still retract the hand, but as you do this, I would get closer to you and continue the retraction itself to some other technique, against that arm or against the head or body that might have been opened during the retraction.
Again, non of the above is unique to Aikido, I have seen high level Karateka teach exactly the same things and concepts.


I may later write about Uke compliance.

Amir


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## Jenna

amir said:


> Beware, the above does not mean Aikido does not require any force at all. You must have some force to hold on to Uke.
> 
> Also, the above does not mean that having force is a disadvantage in applying Aikido in a real situation (some make this mistake) - you could use excess force to cover a mistake, and apply a technique despite it. This is one reason people are discouraged from using force while training and learning - at that point, one wishes to uncover his mistakes and learn from them.


I think the use of force in any Aikido technique is bad practice.  If someone is forcing at all, then something within their execution of the tech needs to be looked at. Can be anything from the ground up: their stance / balance to front and rear, their starting position before engagement, the mechanics of their drive from the core, the contact points for the technique and the application of torque.. 

There are many factors that determine why an aikidoka would force something, though there is absolutely an inherent problem if they are. It is not to be condoned nor excused and but rather corrected!  

Using force to cover a mistake is one of those things that happens.. that is fair enough.. And but better to stop the technique midway and address the issues rather than continuing with it.  Nothing is gained by that.  Two obvious reasons to eliminate use of force.. First, in the dojo, forcing can result in ligament and tendon damage either in you or your partner.  And but secondly, if your opponent in a real-life situation knows the first thing of Aikido or simple dynamics then your forcing may be a direct cause of your own defeat.


----------



## amir

Jenna said:


> I am not sure that retraction of strikes is common practice in any MA? Though I could be wrong?? I think WC / KF chain punching is an exception maybe? And but what happens in Aikido is that your opponent, through correctly executed technique will [or should] MAKE you move.  If you move BEFORE you absolutely have to, then you are being compliant, which is bad practice.  These are the lazy practitioners of Erroneous Aikido that "go with the flow" in a BAD way.  Here nobody is served when the two training partners move as though touched by gentle ghosts.  This to me is almost disrespectful to the whole idea of Aikido, of training and of MA!  I would widen that to encompass all martial artists that practice with that mindset, though I would not digress!!
> 
> However, much of this apparent laziness may come from your personal experience, having had a technique done on you many times before, perhaps over many years of practice, you know ahead of time that, say, your shoulder will be dislocated if you do not sink down.  Thus you move too soon, before you have to.  So, although compliance in many cases is simple lazy and bad training, often it is actually a form of self-preservation [kind of like hitting the break-board softly so as not to hurt your knucks rather than following right through and snapping it].  However, that said, this halfhearted way of training also devalues the training, irrespective of what level those training have reached.  Practitioners in this case might as well dance with each other, or go outside for a smoke!
> 
> To prove that the Aikido works, nobody moves until they cannot do anything BUT move, then nage is aware of the level of pressure that needs to be applied for his technique to work and uke is aware of his own tolerances.  That is the only way to do Aikido, anything else is just flinching and ballet.
> 
> Jenna x




Jenna

Reading your previous posts and agreeing with them, I think these suggestions come with great intent, but you miss the correct golden pass and get to the other extreme. I disagree the way you described Uke behavior (and perhaps the problem is in the description) for multiple reasons, all of which come down to two points: being a good Uke is a difficult thing, and one is learning as Uke too. A short list explaining more about this:

1. Not moving unless you have to is dangerous. Some locks could cause some damage during the time it takes one to feel the pain and start moving.
2. Not moving unless you have to is simply wrong. In this way Uke is learning to stay in disadvantageous situations. In the same instant Tori is learning techniques in non-realistic situations.
3. Learning this way, some technique could not happen - some techniques include mid-steps in which Tori uses Uke response to his being unbalanced and/or in a disadvantageous situation.
4. Being Uke one learns how to react to a situation. Ukeshould really learn to be "soft" - sensitive to the situation and adapting responsively. In some Aikido styles which have no sparring (not Korindo which I learn) this is the only opportunity Uke has.
5. (Continues 4) If Uke is not used to moving with the power he feels, he can not counter effectively. In fact, if Tori does not learn this, his techniques will always be late and in-effective, and the best learning of this is done as Uke.



Amir


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## Jenna

amir said:


> Jenna
> 
> Reading your previous posts and agreeing with them, I think these suggestions come with great intent, but you miss the correct golden pass and get to the other extreme. I disagree the way you described Uke behavior (and perhaps the problem is in the description) for multiple reasons, all of which come down to two points: being a good Uke is a difficult thing, and one is learning as Uke too. A short list explaining more about this:
> 
> 1. Not moving unless you have to is dangerous. Some locks could cause some damage during the time it takes one to feel the pain and start moving.
> 2. Not moving unless you have to is simply wrong. In this way Uke is learning to stay in disadvantageous situations. In the same instant Tori is learning techniques in non-realistic situations.
> 3. Learning this way, some technique could not happen - some techniques include mid-steps in which Tori uses Uke response to his being unbalanced and/or in a disadvantageous situation.
> 4. Being Uke one learns how to react to a situation. Ukeshould really learn to be "soft" - sensitive to the situation and adapting responsively. In some Aikido styles which have no sparring (not Korindo which I learn) this is the only opportunity Uke has.
> 5. (Continues 4) If Uke is not used to moving with the power he feels, he can not counter effectively. In fact, if Tori does not learn this, his techniques will always be late and in-effective, and the best learning of this is done as Uke.
> 
> 
> 
> Amir


Well yes and no Amir 

for your point # 1. I do not agree, the important factor you have omitted here is speed.  When beginning in the art, each technique should be completed at a very slow rate that sinuous tension can be felt before it is moved upon by both uke and tori.  Again, nothing should be forced, yet nobody moves unless their physiology makes them move.  To do otherwise is to learn nothing, neither as uke nor tori. When practitioners become more adept, those reflexes become the more efficient and necessarily quicker thus the technique is completed at a rate more akin to real life.  The situation you describe is more likely to occur if partners are either a. mismatched in their level of proficiency or b. forcing the technique as described above.. in either case yes, granted damage may very well be sustained so I agree with you on that part.

for your point #2 I do not quite follow this logic forgive me.. I am referring specifically to practice of singular technique wherein it is important that neither partner [and that includes tori] move until they ARE moved.  However if you are referring to randori type practice then yes standing static would be foolish, that is a given yes..

Agree with your point #3

for your point #4 well I think it depends here on what kind of training one does in one's Aikido and which kind of benefit is sought.  Yes, for uke to be [I would not use your word soft, rather, receptive or even absorbing] for uke to be this way is best for their learning, granted.  Yet this is not a situation which has a parallel in reality where the opponent will resist you with 100% effort.  In which case, if you do not MAKE him move, he will not move, you may end up on your back and lest you are adept at your BJJ too then that is not so good.  So if  you are practicing pure technique in a dojo void then yes receptive or absorbing uke.. else [and I know not many aikidoka practice real life situations - we were removed for doing this] and but for real life, hard, unreceptive, uncompliant, non-absorbing uke is requisite.  So yes and no here.. depends on what you are trying to get from your training [or which role you are acting].

Not wanting to kick up dust or nothing.. we is all friends here haha.. think you just want to argue w/me that is ok Jennax


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## morph4me

amir said:


> Jenna
> 
> Reading your previous posts and agreeing with them, I think these suggestions come with great intent, but you miss the correct golden pass and get to the other extreme. I disagree the way you described Uke behavior (and perhaps the problem is in the description) for multiple reasons, all of which come down to two points: being a good Uke is a difficult thing, and one is learning as Uke too. A short list explaining more about this:
> 
> 1. Not moving unless you have to is dangerous. Some locks could cause some damage during the time it takes one to feel the pain and start moving.
> 2. Not moving unless you have to is simply wrong. In this way Uke is learning to stay in disadvantageous situations. In the same instant Tori is learning techniques in non-realistic situations.
> 3. Learning this way, some technique could not happen - some techniques include mid-steps in which Tori uses Uke response to his being unbalanced and/or in a disadvantageous situation.
> 4. Being Uke one learns how to react to a situation. Ukeshould really learn to be "soft" - sensitive to the situation and adapting responsively. In some Aikido styles which have no sparring (not Korindo which I learn) this is the only opportunity Uke has.
> 5. (Continues 4) If Uke is not used to moving with the power he feels, he can not counter effectively. In fact, if Tori does not learn this, his techniques will always be late and in-effective, and the best learning of this is done as Uke.
> 
> 
> Amir


 
I'd like to follow Jenna's example and respond to each point.

1.  I agree to a point, but I dobn't think it's really an issue. When first learning the technique is put on slowly to avoid damage, at this point uke shouldn't move until tori moves him. When you get better and the attacks come faster, Tori is moving sooner so uke's attack doesn't stop, so his balance is compromised and he has to move to maintain the impetus of the attack and he walks into the lock.  

2. Not moving unless you have to doesn't mean that you stand there and wait until you're hit until you move, it means moving to blend with or avoid an attack. It means moving when it's appropriate to do so, not too late, but not too soon either.

3. This is only an issue if you start from a static position, and you don't unbalance uke so he has to move to maintain structural integrity.

4 & 5.  I agree with most of this, but I think it works the other way.  What happens to uke is a direct response to what tori does. If tori gives uke something to fight against, then uke will resist and the technique will be ineffective. On the other hand, if tori remains soft and uke can't find anything to resist, nothing to fight against, he is sucked into the technique because of his own momentum and to his detriment.


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## Yari

Hi

There is one thing I though about, the part that uke learns how to move compared to what tori does. 

This is normal human behavior...nobody wants to stand in harms way. But isn't this making uke move in a way that non-uke's would move? And isn't it going to create a stylistisk way of moving that isn't rooted in "reality".

/Yari


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## Xue Sheng

I do not train aikido and I am basing this on my background in Taiji Tuishou so I could be way off the mark, but it would seem to me that a person learning to be a good uke would be equally advantageous in a real world application as it would be to be good at Aikido. If you are not movable it is as likely to throw the other guy off and give you the advantage IMO.

However there would also be a disadvantage to being to rooted which I would think if one learns to be a good uke they would figure that out as well. And of course learning how not to be afraid of the fall, or attack, in the dojo would also be advantageous outside when you are in harms way.

IMO you are just cheating yourself and your training partner if you help them execute the technique by jumping or making it easy


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## amir

So far, this is a fruitful discussion, so let us continue to discuss: 


Jenna said:


> for your point # 1. I do not agree, the important factor you have omitted here is speed. When beginning in the art, each technique should be completed at a very slow rate that sinuous tension can be felt before it is moved upon by both uke and tori. Again, nothing should be forced, yet nobody moves unless their physiology makes them move. To do otherwise is to learn nothing, neither as uke nor tori. When practitioners become more adept, those reflexes become the more efficient and necessarily quicker thus the technique is completed at a rate more akin to real life. The situation you describe is more likely to occur if partners are either a. mismatched in their level of proficiency or b. forcing the technique as described above.. in either case yes, granted damage may very well be sustained so I agree with you on that part.


I may misunderstand your meaning by "nothing should be forced", if Uke has to be moved, is he not forced to move? 
Except from that, our experiences here with beginners may defer (must admit, many years have passed since I start, so I rely more on seeing others): 
- At least here, too often beginners try to force techniques, using force or speed instead of correct movement. 
- I have seen more then one beginner tapping continuously while hanging in an impossible position, yet, unable to sense where should he move to reduce the pressure on him, I have even seen some move in the wrong direction and almost dislocating something. 
- In Judo, only locks that create significant pain before damage are allowed. Many Aikido locks are disallowed because they do not belong in this category. 
- From my own experience and that of the other veterans here, some locks cause minor yet cumulative damage if one waits for them to really hurt. 
- I still remember several cases of practicing with some beginner who insisted they can withstand the technique. In the end, I did something similar to your suggestion and each of them did not show up a few lessons/weeks later because they were hurt and in pain. 



Jenna said:


> for your point #2 I do not quite follow this logic forgive me.. I am referring specifically to practice of singular technique wherein it is important that neither partner [and that includes tori] move until they ARE moved. However if you are referring to randori type practice then yes standing static would be foolish, that is a given yes.


About Tori:
To my understanding of Aikido, to stay in place would be wrong for Tori. In almost all cases of Uke actions, Tori should move, to create Kuzushi, to prevent Uke from following a grab with a strike or striking again
About Uke: 
One learns Aikido while he is Uke too (otherwise 50% of our training time would have been wasted).  I will continue about this below.
If the Uke learns to stay static in a disadvantageous situation, he will act the same way in real situations.
For example, in basic variations of Shiho-Nage and irimi-nage, Tori unbalnces Uke downwards, I expect Uke to resist this and try to restablize himself, and not to stay static with his head down, waiting for Tori to knee his face and elbow his head. 
Uke should be active, in a realistic manner aimed to maintain his attack and well being. Even if only one attack is practiced, Uke reaction to Tori should be realistic and reflect his desire to be in position for a second attack.



Jenna said:


> [I would not use your word soft, rather, receptive or even absorbing] ...


Soft is the common best translation of the Japanese concept. It does not mean weak, it means a combination of sensitive, feeling, responsive, etc.
Soft is the counter of stiff.
One memorable memory of mine is practicing with a Japanese Katori Shinto Ryu teacher and doing Randori with him (in a Korindo settings). He was very soft, but you could feel his muscles continuously working and flowing, just like a tiger.
I dislike the term absorb, since to me it connects to getting hit and absorbing it, while my training teaches not to get hit.


Jenna said:


> for your point #4 well I think it depends here on what kind of training one does in one's Aikido and which kind of benefit is sought. Yes, for uke to be for uke to be this way is best for their learning, granted.


I am assuming the aim of learning is martial, otherwise  you can do anything. When one is Uke one is also learning. A martial artist who is not soft, who continuously uses force against technique, is doomed to fail. The same is true in any M.A.
If one is looking for effective Aikido, one must be soft. One of the times to learn to be soft, is while being Uke. When you are Uke you are not only giving your partner opportunity to train, you are also learning  how to react. 


Jenna said:


> Yet this is not a situation which has a parallel in reality where the opponent will resist you with 100% effort. In which case, if you do not MAKE him move, he will not move, you may end up on your back and lest you are adept at your BJJ too then that is not so good. So if you are practicing pure technique in a dojo void then yes receptive or absorbing uke.. else [and I know not many aikidoka practice real life situations - we were removed for doing this] and but for real life, hard, unreceptive, uncompliant, non-absorbing uke is requisite.


Here we partially disagree, especially when looking at this from the martial prospective:
- I agree with "uncompliant", once one is not talking of beginners still learning their moves or intentionally leading someone to correct some point. 
- One (and not beginners) can and should do some isolated practice against 100% force resistance. It is good to develop correct techniques, moving from the center, etc.  This type of training should be done in progressive manner, to make Sure Uke is within his limits of responding well.
- In a real life fight, if you get the attacker to 100% resistance against your technique, then great  take advantage of his new direction of force to throw him with another technique. That is Tori being soft, feeling Uke and responding to it, not insisting rather flowing.
- I have heard more then one Judo teacher explain that anyone who tries to resist, be hard etc, is the easiest "prey". Same is true in Aikido. 
You do know the stories of the Oak tree and the grass, or the how to sense a sword fight as it starts (if you fell him strongly, kill him and get home. if you feel him lightly, be ready for a difficult fight, if you can not feel him  give in or make your peace with )?



Jenna said:


> So yes and no here.. depends on what you are trying to get from your training [or which role you are acting].


I am talking from the martial approach, as my teachers taught me in Korindo Aikido, which is considered a very practical style (though I doubt how many of those who copied that statement has ever seen any one actually doing Korindo).
Most of the practice time, Tori has to be soft to succeed, and Uke has to be soft, to learn to be better.



morph4me said:


> I'd like to follow Jenna's example and respond to each point. 1. I agree to a point, but I dobn't think it's really an issue. When first learning the technique is put on slowly to avoid damage, at this point uke shouldn't move until tori moves him. When you get better and the attacks come faster, Tori is moving sooner so uke's attack doesn't stop, so his balance is compromised and he has to move to maintain the impetus of the attack and he walks into the lock.


If this is the intention, I kind of agree, with the exceptions I wrote above.


morph4me said:


> 2. Not moving unless you have to doesn't mean that you stand there and wait until you're hit until you move, it means moving to blend with or avoid an attack. It means moving when it's appropriate to do so, not too late, but not too soon either.


I agree, but that should apply to both Tori and Uke.


morph4me said:


> 3. This is only an issue if you start from a static position, and you don't unbalance uke so he has to move to maintain structural integrity.


Again, mostly agree, just add moving away from disadvantageous situations to the specific case of structural integrity.


morph4me said:


> 4 & 5. I agree with most of this, but I think it works the other way. What happens to uke is a direct response to what tori does. If tori gives uke something to fight against, then uke will resist and the technique will be ineffective. On the other hand, if tori remains soft and uke can't find anything to resist, nothing to fight against, he is sucked into the technique because of his own momentum and to his detriment.


Here you describe the ideal. I am talking of the learning process.
I still remember the very few Randori-s in which I was close to that ideal, in those, too often the first to be felt by the other, immediately found himself so trapped in technique he just simply dropped (We did not need to follow things through with force, I am talking of randori/sparing of two sandans, each knowing the other's techniques work. We learned much more about sensitivity and timing without the resistance). I have also seen what happens if after shuch a randori I happen to work with a beginner  until I get back to my senses he can learn nothing since I counter anything he does and throw him away effortlessly, and this may answer Jenna about the martial aspect  soft means much faster (moving in response to intent not to end of action), soft means stronger (the whole body generates force).

Hope this is of interest
Amir


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## amir

Xue Sheng said:


> IMO you are just cheating yourself and your training partner if you help them execute the technique by jumping or making it easy




To some point, Uke should help tori to execute the technique, but only in accordance to Tori and Uke levels.Keeping Tori challenged to do the technique the best he can. 

If Tori is a beginner and Uke is experienced, Uke may have to lead Tori in his moves to do a correct technique (did it, and it is damn hard for Uke and a most teaching experience).
If Tori is more experienced, Uke should do his best to behave naturally, yet react to the power Tori is using. Uke should also not get Tori to put Uke at risk.

Uke should remember that scaling down is of  both speed and force, not only one of them. 
Uke should also not resist in such a way that changes the basic situation. I have seen more then one Uke who resisted so strongly to some technique that he practically invited a dozen others, instead of the one Sensei showed (luckily I am senior enough to respond in the Aikido way in such situations and not expected to force my way :uhyeah


Some people here seem to forget that it is easier to evade a technique through a loop-hole then to use all your force to resist. I could not resist a much stronger beginner (once he learns the basic mechanics), but normally I can find a dozen openings to evade and counter.
Force resistance is the lowest level of resisting. We aim higher.

Amir


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## amir

Yari said:


> Hi
> 
> There is one thing I though about, the part that uke learns how to move compared to what tori does.
> 
> This is normal human behavior...nobody wants to stand in harms way. But isn't this making uke move in a way that non-uke's would move? And isn't it going to create a stylistisk way of moving that isn't rooted in "reality".
> 
> /Yari



You need a good teacher, so you will learn how to receive correctly. 
Ukemy is not just falling, it is receiving the technique, at high level, you should use your softness to counter.

As you get to high levels, you should know to move in different ways, according to the level your partner should feel. It is not easy to be Uke.

We only learn if we get about 75% of successes, similar to one not getting much stronger by pushing a wall. If you wish to learn, you need a consistent experience, letting you learn from your mistakes, and succeed if you did correctly.
There is no point to my fully resisting a student in his first 5yrs, my superior experience and knowledge will let me find too many opportunities for him to learn to block them all at once, his successes will be opportunistic and related to my failings, not to his doing. (been there, done that, and got my Sensei to teach me to be better, the hard way)
A good Uke adjusts the level of practice to Tori, so tori will have to strain himself, but will mostly succeed. Tori should not learn more then 1-2 new pointers on any technique at a single lesson (and no more then 5-6 in the lesson), otherwise he will be overwhelmed and be unable to digest it all during his rest in order to get better the next lesson.

Amir


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## tempus

There are times I do have Uke tap before pain gets there.  One student was so fleixable his joints could bend flat.    You can try to give pain, but nothing.  Fast forward a few years and belt levels.  Guest black belt comes in applies a lock on the guy and he does not tap and then pop went the shoulder because he was waiting for pain while the visiting person did not know how flexible the guy was.

There is a young girl now in class who is just as flexible.  I am telling her to tap early so as not to get hurt.  As she moves up in levels I want her to counter strike.  If I am defending myself and apply a wrist lock that does nothing I should be moving into another technique or striking.  Not standing there.  Who klnows, my luck I will get attacked about a eveil ex-cirque du soleil person.

On another note, depending on the belt level, I counterstrike as Uke.  If I go to tear your head off and you miss the technique, you should be immediatly striking, to create energy and slow down the attacker, or going into another technique.  Low level belts I do not do that, but correct and attack again.  My reasoning is to make sure the person just does not stand there.  You need to do something.

Does anyone find issues with people wanting to strike?  I think punching drills should be part of any aikido school since a good punch makes for a realistic Uke.


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## Yari

tempus said:


> ....I think punching drills should be part of any aikido school since a good punch makes for a realistic Uke.


 
Yes, anything to emphesize reality, and make sure that you practice accordanly to what you might experience, is for me a good idea.

/Yari


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## theletch1

Yari said:


> Yes, anything to emphesize reality, *and make sure that you practice accordanly to what you might experience*, is for me a good idea.
> 
> /Yari


 Excellent idea.  Static, karate style punches aren't going to be the norm in a self defense scenario.  We will often work the big roundhouse punches and backhands that you see in the bar scene as well as the shoot that too many yahoos see in the MMA world and decide is a good idea to try in a fight.


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## tempus

I have some boxing experince, thanks Dad, that I tend to use on higher belts.  The issue is a lot of people let me get in close to throw a boxing style punch.  Boxing style I mean planted with hips twwisting and along wth the punching foot so it is a short straight or hook.  Either they blend the wrong way, which is okay as long as you get in and jam my punch before it goes to full power, or they get tagged because the blend has to be very quick.  Sometimes we will pratice the close punches and play with quick blocks and parries.

Some have caught on and kick me when I get in close and then follow up with technique.  Just glad I wear a cup.

-Gary


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## Telfer

Jenna said:


> Hope that is all clear to you?? Say if it is unclear, yes?
> 
> And but the techniques themselves in no way rely upon strength rather they utilise principles of impulse and momentum to redirect the motion of the opponent.


Yes, you could certainly redirect *A LOT* of momentum in such a way that the assailant is floored. This happens even when someone is running and trips on a pebble. 

I did this myself endlessly when I was kid playing King of the Hill. I took Judo from the age of 10-17 and would stand on top of a snow hill and have the other hurl kids hurl themselves at me and I would flip them down the other side with a different technique each time.

Nobody got hurt and it had nothing to do with real fighting, because in a real fight almost nobody is stupid enough to GIVE you that much momentum.

Its a matter of degree. A retracting punch doesnt contain enough momentum to put anyone down. The kinetic energy required to do this has to come from somewhere, and if its not from the assailant then it has to come from the Aikidoka.

In Judo we arrange arms and legs so that we use our large muscle groups against the opponent's small muscle groups...but even this still requires *adding* kinetic energy. It still pays to be physically strong.



> I am not sure that retraction of strikes is common practice in any MA?


Retraction of strikes is common to all striking arts including western boxing, karate, kung-fu, Muay Thai, etc.

The only time you see fists freezing in midair is in Movies and Wushu demos.


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## theletch1

Motion is motion is motion.  Whether the strike is coming at your head, from an angle OR going away from you on the retraction there is motion and energy.  Parry the punch and follow the retraction back in.  As that energy returns to the striker go with it and maximize it.  Because a punch is being retracted doesn't mean it can't be used.  Also, don't make the mistake of believeing that an aikido-ka doesn't know how to strike.  Any aikido-ka worth his/her salt has either studied a striking art perviously or has studied strikes in depth in order to better defend against them.


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## theletch1

BTW, Telfer.... you have exactly 4 posts on this site as of this posting and ALL of them are in the aikido section... and all of them show a somewhat disdainful outlook on aikido and none in your listed primary art/style of MMA.  Be aware that the rules that you agreed to abide by when you opened your account here forbid style bashing.  If you are willing to have open discussions on the art and are truly interested in what aikido has to offer then welcome.  If, however, your only objective is to stir the pot, as it were, then perhaps a quick re-read of the rules would be in order.


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## Telfer

theletch1 said:


> Whether the strike is coming at your head, from an angle OR going away from you on the retraction there is motion and energy.  Parry the punch and follow the retraction back in.  As that energy returns to the striker go with it and maximize it.


Thats a good point about following a retraction, assuming its slow enough to follow. 

The real question however is the AMOUNT of kinetic energy it contains and whether it is enough to put the opponent down by redirecting it.

If the whole body is throw at you, then yes there is enough energy to work with. But a standard jab...no.


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## Telfer

theletch1 said:


> all of them show a somewhat disdainful outlook on aikido and none in your listed primary art/style of MMA.  Be aware that the rules that you agreed to abide by when you opened your account here forbid style bashing.


The only reason I'm here is because there are strict rules, and I genuinely want to find out what the response is to a critique based on fundamental physics.

Usually when people say you should have a more 'open' attitude to any art...it means they want you to let your brains fall out.

I hope thats not the case here.


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## K-man

amir said:


> No, this is not an issue. Anyone trying to grab a fast strike is making a stupid mistake. If one chooses to relate to the strike and not avoid it altogether, the strike should be intercepted/controlled/diverted and only then one may be able to catch the hand or arm.
> If I were to connect to the striking hand you would find retraction is not as easy as it normally is, and you would already be unbalanced. You could still retract the hand, but as you do this, I would get closer to you and continue the retraction itself to some other technique, against that arm or against the head or body that might have been opened during the retraction.
> Again, non of the above is unique to Aikido, I have seen high level Karateka teach exactly the same things and concepts.



When we train against karate type strikes, often the arm is left extended.  This is of course totally unrealistic but offers the opportunity to train 'muscle memory'. Then we say, "ok, now retract after the punch".  The problem here is that the punch thrown is most often like the punches thrown in karate tournaments. These are very fast but equally unrealistic. Trying to catch one is a little like trying to catch smoke. They never reach their intended target, nor were they ever intended to reach the target. However, if the punch is fast, and delivered with intent, the story is quite different. If uke punches with the intent of actually hitting, then tori needs to either move off the line or move uke's arm of the line.  In either event the attack is not stopped. The split second it takes 'til uke reacts and retracts his fist is enough to give tori the time to capture the arm, or move in to deliver another technique. 
As amir said, this is not unique to Aikido.  We experience the same frustration in karate training.  Another reason for avoiding the tournament scene!


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## Xue Sheng

Telfer said:


> Thats a good point about following a retraction, assuming its slow enough to follow.
> 
> The real question however is the AMOUNT of kinetic energy it contains and whether it is enough to put the opponent down by redirecting it.
> 
> If the whole body is throw at you, then yes there is enough energy to work with. But a standard jab...no.


 
The response would be different from any MA perspective. You would not respond to a jab the same way as you would if someone was throwing their body weight at you


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## Telfer

Xue Sheng said:


> You would not respond to a jab the same way as you would if someone was throwing their body weight at you


Ok, how do you respond to a quick retracting jab?


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## K-man

Jenna said:


> I think the use of force in any Aikido technique is bad practice.  If someone is forcing at all, then something within their execution of the tech needs to be looked at. Can be anything from the ground up: their stance / balance to front and rear, their starting position before engagement, the mechanics of their drive from the core, the contact points for the technique and the application of torque..
> 
> There are many factors that determine why an aikidoka would force something, though there is absolutely an inherent problem if they are. It is not to be condoned nor excused and but rather corrected!
> 
> Using force to cover a mistake is one of those things that happens.. that is fair enough.. And but better to stop the technique midway and address the issues rather than continuing with it.  Nothing is gained by that.  Two obvious reasons to eliminate use of force.. First, in the dojo, forcing can result in ligament and tendon damage either in you or your partner.  And but secondly, if your opponent in a real-life situation knows the first thing of Aikido or simple dynamics then your forcing may be a direct cause of your own defeat.


This is one of the hardest lessons to learn, especially if you do possess more than the average strength.  We find during, the technique, that we come up against resistance so we do what is natural and add some extra force to the technique.  Against a weaker opponent we may get away with this but the truth is, the technique failed and against a stronger opponent it will fail every time.
As Jenna said, at this stage we must stop and look for the problem. Although the answer is simple it took me several years to get my mind around this concept.  "You can't win in aikido by using strength!"  You have to use 'soft'. (BTW, soft does not mean weak!!)  When we encounter resistance, we need to pause and absorb their strength, then continue, sometimes in a different direction.  The principle is simple.  Our ego prevents us from accepting it.


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## Xue Sheng

Telfer said:


> Ok, how do you respond to a quick retracting jab?


 
retracting, why am I responding to it retracting.

And can I assume from this post that you feel a response to a jab and a response to someone throwing their body weight at you should be the same?

And I am not going to get into typed demos


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## Telfer

Xue Sheng said:


> retracting, why am I responding to it retracting.


I didnt mean ONLY retracting. I mean a quick jab striking me in the jaw and then retracting.


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## Telfer

Xue Sheng said:


> can I assume from this post that you feel a response to a jab and a response to someone throwing their body weight at you should be the same?


I would not respond the same way no.


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## K-man

Telfer said:


> I didnt mean ONLY retracting. I mean a quick jab striking me in the jaw and then retracting.



Most jabs are probing.  If you have been struck on the jaw, you obviously did not evade or cover and you probably are not in position to counter immediately. If the jab is more probing then you probably will just cover or evade.
However, just because a jab is being retracted, and as such doesn't have great momentum, so what?  Where is it written that aikido needs always to redirect energy?  If I can enter, I will continue and take out my opponent regardless of his action or lack of action. It is about taking your opponent's centre.


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## Telfer

K-man said:


> Where is it written that aikido needs always to redirect energy?


Its usually said that Aikido does not require adding energy...and therefore does not require strength training.

So if youre not going to add energy, the attacker's energy must redirected.

The energy required to put him down has to come from somewhere.


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## morph4me

Telfer said:


> Ok, how do you respond to a quick retracting jab?


 
Why would you respond to a an attack that's moving away from you? 

You move when the attack is coming towards you, if you happen to be close to your attacker, you can add the momentum necessary when the punch retracts, if not, you do something else.


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## jks9199

Telfer said:


> Thats a good point about following a retraction, assuming its slow enough to follow.
> 
> The real question however is the AMOUNT of kinetic energy it contains and whether it is enough to put the opponent down by redirecting it.
> 
> If the whole body is throw at you, then yes there is enough energy to work with. But a standard jab...no.


Y'know...  Sometimes the best way to understand what one art or another might be capable of is direct experimentation.  With good attitudes, it can be a great learning experience for both sides.  Find yourself a skilled aikidoist who has actually worked with their system (maybe Letch can refer you), and see what they can do against a jab.

Even a flicking jab.

Aikido and the arts it derived from have been around for a while.  I kind of doubt that it's because they gave warm fuzzies to people...


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## jks9199

Telfer said:


> Ok, how do you respond to a quick retracting jab?


Well... my response is certainly not aikido-like.  I'll either step off and counter -- or step in and deliver my counter right down the line...  I don't care if it's a committed attack or not; once it's in range, it's my turn.


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## tempus

Every situation is different.  When we practice against quick jabs it is usually time your way to follow it back in and then do technique.  I on the other hand always found tapping the knee or the groin causes the jab to stop and the energy of the person bending forward gives me enough energy to work with.  It is very surprising what a tap to ones body can do when.  People get distracted easily.

The last fight I saw I was watching the UFC at a local bar with friends.  All of a sudden two big guys started going at it.  Were they boxing punches, no.  They both were throwing large round houses with each arm as fast as they could.  Both were connecting on each others face, but none had enought power to finish the fight before the bouncers dragged them out.  It surprised me that neither moved nor did either of them block.  It was very funny and surprising.  

My theory is train for every style and every situation.  Will you hit them all, no;  But, at least it will get you thinking if ever in a situation.  The other day we trained against all types of grips and multiple attackers with the lights off.  Changes everything when you cannot see very well.  Hence my  bruised foot where someones knee landed.

Enough rambling.  Time for sleep and then Turkey Day!

-Gary


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## K-man

Telfer said:


> Its usually said that Aikido does not require adding energy...and therefore does not require strength training.
> 
> So if youre not going to add energy, the attacker's energy must redirected.
> 
> The energy required to put him down has to come from somewhere.


What I actually wrote was "Where is it written that aikido needs *always *to redirect energy?"
So I agree with you that "it's *usually* said that Aikido does not require adding energy".
However, I have trained enough to know that Aikido can provide the initial attack and succeed. IMO, there are two reasons. One is that as you enter your opponent reacts, therefore you add to his momentum, or there is a tiny thing called 'ki' that I see demonstrated every time I train. Now we have had numerous discussions as to whether ki exists and I am not interested in beating that drum. Suffice to say, aikido without ki becomes ai-do. Ai-do IMHO is 'Erroneous Aikido' ... isn't that amazing? :asian:


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## morph4me

In those cases where it is required that energy be added by the aikidoka to redirect or off balance is about the amount of energy required to keep a beach ball in the air. Since the momentum is coming from the attacker, and the aikidoka flows with the energy, very little is required to keep it going or change it's course.


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## Telfer

K-man said:


> there is a tiny thing called 'ki' that I see demonstrated every time I train. Now we have had numerous discussions as to whether ki exists and I am not interested in beating that drum. Suffice to say, aikido without ki becomes ai-do.


There are two wild cards in Aikido...one is the development of Ki energy and the other is the development of precognition.

I'm perfectly happy to accept the existence of both, but I believe they are extremely rare. 

In a book on the Chinese internal arts Bruce Frantzis talks about going to Japan on his way to China and witnessing some paranormal force in the Aikido of Ueshiba...but he also makes a point of saying this force was nowhere to be found in Ueshiba's inner circle of students.

Ueshiba also made claims to a psychic precognition of any attacker's intention, making it easy for him to adjust his defense accordingly.

Now the only evidence I've seen of this in a living person was at an Aikido demonstration several years ago given by a Japanese master in his early sixties...cant remember his name sorry.

He performed this one stunt where he would stand passively and invite two LARGE members of the audience to try and lift him off the ground, with no apparent resistance on his part. They couldnt do it.

And another trick involving him kneeling at ease and having several people try to push him over from all directions. Again, he wouldn't budge.

This was a very impessive display of postural stability to say the least, almost magical, but the rest of the demonstration was horrible...the usual over commited attacks, arms freezing in mid air, nobody grabbed for his legs, no kicks, etc. 

It could be that Aikido isnt very effective without these two wild cards.

I really dont know.


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## tempus

To me ki is just the law of physics.  When I do a techinique and drop ki, in my mind, I am changing the balance and direction of the energy, or object in motion, to add or reduce pain.  I would need that numbers guy from the TV show to watch Aikido in action and draw out the equation.

-Gary


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## Yari

Telfer said:


> I didnt mean ONLY retracting. I mean a quick jab striking me in the jaw and then retracting.


 
I believe there is no one set way that will fix any situation (like a jab). In all styles (and even them that say there not styles), you work with basics. This is the fundamentals for how you will handle reality when it comes knocking on the door. Therefor you will not find a technique that is 100% correct for handling a jab. But you'll find techniques and scenario based cases that help you handled a jab situation. Of course you work on perfecting your basics, and in those cases you'll be doing 1 or 3 different techniques to handled the jab, when trying it in your scenario based practice. In some schools you'll even be wokring with the situation that the jab connected becuase you didn't see it; and work with the situation from there.

Aikido is more than just the technique; theres' the perception, the de-escalation, and then the technique. All these areas help define how you handle an attacker (in your request - a jab).


/yari


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## Yari

Telfer said:


> There are two wild cards in Aikido...one is the development of Ki energy and the other is the development of precognition.
> .......
> It could be that Aikido isnt very effective without these two wild cards.
> 
> I really dont know.


 
Well, there is many styles of Aikido, and even more people. You'll find rotten apples anywhere. Just like the people in you friendly neibourhood(sp?).

Ki and precognition, are not mystical for me. They are theories that are created to understand something that can't be explained more easly. If you look at Bateson, he states that if we knew 100% how our eyes worked; the way the signal changes and becomes manipulated before it reaches our eyes, we might not be able to trust our eyes. So we find a simple way of understanding how that works. The same for ki and precognation.

But that said. No matter what you do, I would state that everbody has precognation, it's the degree on how we choose to use it and how we let it influence our lives.

Really depning on how you define "what is Aikido", but I would say that precognintion and ki arn't nessecary for Aikido to be effective, but I know a lot of poeple are blinded by these and think that is the answer to all. But "knowing" ki and precon are going to enhanced your "aikido" (place any style here), becuase they are fundamental for how you handled your life.

/yari


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## theletch1

Ki, as Tempus pointed out, is more about bio-mechanics than any odd, mystical force.  The exercises that you describe are simple energy redirection drills that we in NGA do on a regular basis.  We have 15 drills like that and we call them "ki exercises".  Nothing mystical.  Nothing magical. It's just training with the same dedication that karate guys, muy thai guys and even MMA guys have.

The precognition element of aikido is another red herring in my opinion.  Just as you train to read what your opponents next move will be by watching his shoulders and hips, so does the aikido-ka.  When the attacker moves in a certain way to prepare for an attack (even nearly imperceptible movements) the aikido-ka moves (hopefully) in the correct way to intercept the energy of the attack.  Once you've engaged the attacker you are feeling for very small movements and shifts in energy to take that persons balance, or throw them or manipulate a limb or joint.  

As JKS pointed out, the absolutely best way to figure this all out is to find a quality aikido-ka (not someone committed to the mystical mumbo-jumbo-kumbayah stuff) and cross train with them.


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## K-man

theletch1 said:


> Ki, as Tempus pointed out, is more about bio-mechanics than any odd, mystical force. The exercises that you describe are simple energy redirection drills that we in NGA do on a regular basis. We have 15 drills like that and we call them "ki exercises". Nothing mystical. Nothing magical. It's just training with the same dedication that karate guys, muy thai guys and even MMA guys have.
> 
> As JKS pointed out, the absolutely best way to figure this all out is to find a quality aikido-ka (not someone committed to the mystical mumbo-jumbo-kumbayah stuff) and cross train with them.


Sorry but I must disagree. 99.99 pc of all aikido I have seen is biomechanics or plain force. 'Ki' is not the same as biomechanics and it is not a 'mystical force'. To label something you have obviously never experienced as _'mystical mumbo-jumbo-kumbayah stuff'_ demonstrates a lack of understanding of ki. Cross train by all means, but try and cross train with practitioners that do utilise ki. That is the sole reason I train aikido. As for the ki exercises you practise, I would love to see some on video if you have an example. Anybody can perform a ki exercise but whether it helps you to utilise ki is a totally different story. :asian:

BTW. Why do you spend your time practising 'ki' exercises if ki is mystical mumbo-jumbo-kumbayah stuff?


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## theletch1

K-man said:


> Sorry but I must disagree. 99.99 pc of all aikido I have seen is biomechanics or plain force. 'Ki' is not the same as biomechanics and it is not a 'mystical force'. To label something you have obviously never experienced as _'mystical mumbo-jumbo-kumbayah stuff'_ demonstrates a lack of understanding of ki. Cross train by all means, but try and cross train with practitioners that do utilise ki. That is the sole reason I train aikido. As for the ki exercises you practise, I would love to see some on video if you have an example. Anybody can perform a ki exercise but whether it helps you to utilise ki is a totally different story. :asian:
> 
> BTW. Why do you spend your time practising 'ki' exercises if ki is mystical mumbo-jumbo-kumbayah stuff?


NGA = Nihon Goshin Aikido.  Bio-mechanics... utilizing body movement, dropping of the center, dominating your attackers center with your own. My label of "mystical-mumbo-jumbo" refers to those aikido practitioners who've turned our art into little more than a meditation circle.  As for cross training... I do and have.  I trained h2h in the Corps, kempo for several years and train with a couple of MMA guys on the ground.  Relax, take a deep breath.  We're on the same side here.  I know aikido works, hell, I spend enough of my time teaching it so I better damn well know that it works. 

I practice ki exercises because learning to drop your center and redirect energy (using ki) are an integral part of the art that I teach.


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## Telfer

theletch1 said:


> Ki is more about bio-mechanics than any odd, mystical force.  The exercises that you describe are simple energy redirection drills that we in NGA do on a regular basis.  We have 15 drills like that and we call them "ki exercises".  Nothing mystical.  Nothing magical.


Well we know that the founder's teachings on Aikido are practically marinated in the paranormal...in contrast to Jigoro Kano who believed Judo was nothing more than clever engineering.

Like this guy moving massively heavy concrete blocks around in his backyard using only pebbles and logs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRDzFROMx0&feature=player_embedded

Ueshiba's teaching is different in that he speaks of using a force not known to science...very much like the Qi Gong masters of China:


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## theletch1

Telfer said:


> Well we know that the founder's teachings on Aikido are practically marinated in the paranormal...in contrast to Jigoro Kano who believed Judo was nothing more than clever engineering.
> 
> Like this guy moving massively heavy concrete blocks around in his backyard using only pebbles and logs:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRDzFROMx0&feature=player_embedded
> 
> Ueshiba's teaching is different in that he speaks of using a force not known to science...very much like the Qi Gong masters of China:


 Ueshiba's teachings changed a great deal over time.  The style of aikido that I study doesn't trace it's lineage back to Ueshiba but to Morida.  Regardless of where your lineage goes back to it will eventually lead you back to Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu in one form or another.  The idea of using a force not known to science is where O' Sensei wound up after his spiritual journeys.  As I said in my last post there are those in the world of aikido that have turned our art into little more than a meditation circle.  It's an art that appealed to many of the "hippie" types (and still does depending) because it didn't stress striking and seemed to stress harmony.  It was that type of practitioner that began the whole "Erroneous Aikido" concept that Jenna began the thread about.  There are few other arts out there, perhaps with the exception of some of the kung fu arts or the ninja arts, that have people studying with such extremely different philosophies of what the art is.  If you are interested, Telfer, in finding a spot for aikido in your MMA training then I urge you to find an aikido school that understands the martial side of the art and find a practitioner who's willing to exchange ideas and techniques with you.  As I've pointed out, I train with a couple of MMA guys when I get the chance and it's been rewarding for all of us.


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## Telfer

theletch1 said:


> If you are interested, Telfer, in finding a spot for aikido in your MMA training then I urge you to find an aikido school that understands the martial side of the art and find a practitioner who's willing to exchange ideas and techniques with you.  As I've pointed out, I train with a couple of MMA guys when I get the chance and it's been rewarding for all of us.


Even mentioning the word Aikido on an MMA forum is liable to get me killed. If fact, at least one forum doesnt even allow you to use the word KI unless you are VERY specific about what you mean. 

However, one of the most successful MMA competitors Bas Rutten has gone on record giving credit to some Aikido techniques at close range.

He explains here:





I personally would not train with a teacher unless he could do the tricks I saw demonstrated live...like you see in this clip at 3:30






After looking up your Shioda Morida this is about the only thing I could find.


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## theletch1

MacEwen Sensei is my instructors instructor.  He holds rank in several arts, applies a laser focused self defense mind set to his aikido and is someone that I really wouldn't want to have to defend against him at all.  That video was done 20 years ago and he's only gotten better since then.  I'm in a rush so can't respond to your post as it deserves but I'll take a moment  (probably tomorrow afternoon) to give it the attention it deserves. :asian:


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## theletch1

Sorry for the delay.  Real life can be a pain.

Bas is a great MMAist and IIRC holds dan ranking in at least two martial arts...that doesn't make him an expert on what an aikido-ka with the proper mind-set in his training is capable of.  

The exercises that you reference in the clip at 3:30 are two of the 15 exercises that we practice in NGA and which I'm sure other forms of aikido practice as well.  They aren't magical, mystical energy beams.  They are simply changing the direction of the flow of the energy that your attackers are giving you in such a way as to make the energy useless to your attacker but useful to you.  The be all and end all of this conversation is this... aikido is many things to many people.  If you train in aikido with a self defense mind-set you can make it what it was when it was first created... a brutally effective martial art.  If you approach it as a hobby or as a sprititual path then that's all you're going to get from it.  You're complaints about aikido aren't falling on deaf ears here.  Read all of this thread from the beginning and you'll see that most of the aikido-ka on this site are lamenting the fact that the art we loved has, to an extent, been hijacked by folks who've created the image of the art that has you believing that it's nearly useless.  Again, find an aikido-ka who approaches there training with an SD mindset and share your knowledge with them and accept there input and you'll have your eyes opened.

Now, having said that allow me to say this... I appreciate the fact that you've gotten your points across here in a polite and professional manner.  I look forward to discussing other aspects of the martial arts with you on the site. :asian:


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## Telfer

theletch1 said:


> The exercises that you reference in the clip at 3:30 are two of the 15 exercises that we practice in NGA and which I'm sure other forms of aikido practice as well.  They aren't magical, mystical energy beams.


I wonder if it only works on humans. I mean, supposing a crane swung into position and lowered a hook to lift him up with the force of his body weight, plus one pound??? Would he still remain rooted to the ground?

Regardless of whether someone traces their Aikido back to the founder of Aikido or to Takeda Sokaku we still end up with paranormal explanations.

MacEwen's talk of an 'inner body' and redirecting force into an opponent's body without moving at all would be inexplicable to any scientist or mechanical engineer.

The stories of psychic precognition from the lives of both Ueshiba and Sokaku are also WAY out there.


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## K-man

theletch1 said:


> MacEwen Sensei is my instructors instructor. He holds rank in several arts, applies a laser focused self defense mind set to his aikido and is someone that I really wouldn't want to have to defend against him at all. That video was done 20 years ago and he's only gotten better since then. I'm in a rush so can't respond to your post as it deserves but I'll take a moment (probably tomorrow afternoon) to give it the attention it deserves. :asian:


I spent some time on YouTube searching MacEwen Sensei. Some interesting video. If there were more instructors like him teaching aikido this thread would never have started.


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## tempus

When I can find time I do attend MacEwen Sensei advance classes.  He is very fast and technique just flows.  There is always something new to learn.  My goal is to find more free time in 2010 so I can attend more often.

-Gary


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## theletch1

Telfer said:


> I wonder if it only works on humans. I mean, supposing a crane swung into position and lowered a hook to lift him up with the force of his body weight, plus one pound??? Would he still remain rooted to the ground?
> 
> Regardless of whether someone traces their Aikido back to the founder of Aikido or to Takeda Sokaku we still end up with paranormal explanations.
> 
> MacEwen's talk of an 'inner body' and redirecting force into an opponent's body without moving at all would be inexplicable to any scientist or mechanical engineer.
> 
> The stories of psychic precognition from the lives of both Ueshiba and Sokaku are also WAY out there.


As I've said before, they are energy redirection exercises... not energy resistance exercises.  If you notice the men are able to easily pick him up at first and set him back down.  Why? He's stiffening up and providing resistance straight down against their straight up energy.  When they can't pick him up he's rolling his shoulders in toward his ears ever so slightly so that the energy being applied by the lifters is being shifted from lifting him straight up to pushing straight in.  He simply changes the direction in which the energy needs to work to accomplish it's mission.

In the second one they are trying to push his hands and arms toward the ceiling.  Were he simply pushing straight down they'd have no problem overpowering him.  He's not, though.  He's actually visualizing his own energy flowing from his center out the end of his fingertips and over the horizon.  The folks pushing up are applying their resistance in the wrong direction to complete the task.  

I have at least two engineers as students right now.  Both have told me that it didn't make any sense that these things could happen... until they trained long enough to understand the subtleties of how that energy is redirected.  Then it made perfect sense.  Nothing mystical, nothing magical.  It's an internal art and must be felt to be understood.  It's like saying fire burns.  You can explain it to me all day long.  Just looks like light to me.  I have to actually touch it to truly understand it.


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## Xue Sheng

Maybe this will help

*redirection*
verb 
1. to direct again. 
2. to change the direction or focus of: He redirected the children's energies toward building a sand castle instead of throwing sand at each other.  
adjective 
3. Law. pertaining to the examination of a witness by the party calling him or her, after cross-examination. 

* resistance* 
noun 
1. the act or power of resisting, opposing, or withstanding. 
2. the opposition offered by one thing, force, etc., to another. 
3. Electricity. a. Also called ohmic resistance. a property of a conductor by virtue of which the passage of current is opposed, causing electric energy to be transformed into heat: equal to the voltage across the conductor divided by the current flowing in the conductor: usually measured in ohms. Abbreviation: R 
b. a conductor or coil offering such opposition; resistor. 
4. Psychiatry. opposition to an attempt to bring repressed thoughts or feelings into consciousness. 
5. (often initial capital letter) an underground organization composed of groups of private individuals working as an opposition force in a conquered country to overthrow the occupying power, usually by acts of sabotage, guerrilla warfare, etc.: the resistance during the German occupation in World War II.  
6. Stock Exchange. resistance level.


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## Telfer

theletch1 said:


> He's actually visualizing his own energy flowing from his center out the end of his fingertips and over the horizon.


One often hears this kind of explanation in internal MA, but can you imagine the response if it was repeated at any institution of science???

According to science, the type of energy must be specified, and there is no scientific evidence that any form of energy can be manipulated or redirected with human thought...by visualizing???

Ultimately, we are still left with only paranormal explanations.

Not that I'm complaining...there may indeed be some form of energy not YET known to science.

In this clip a group of researchers tries to define and establish CHI as bio-electrical energy...without much success, at least with metering equipment.


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## theletch1

By visualizing the flow of energy I'm not attempting to truly "flow" some etherial force.  I'm simply visualizing how I want to move my energy.  The trouble that many folks have with aikido is that it just takes so damn long to get very proficient with and one of the reasons that's true is that it requires very minute shifts in balance and how you move your own force.  I think that perhaps I'm not doing too good a job of explaining myself when I talk about energy flow.  What I'm really doing when I "flow" energy is making a movement and then extending that motion over the horizon.  We're getting into one of those areas of the internal arts that are very easy for me to picture in my head but difficult for me to get across via this media.  I don't view my energy flow or dropping of ki in the way that the experimenters in your clip are viewing chi.


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## jks9199

I think that, in many cases, the visualization is simply a tool to enable you to do muscular/skeletal alignments.  For example, let's look at "extending my energy to the horizon."  What I've noticed is that when I simply reach my arm out, I automatically/unconsciously include a "stop" and counter-action as I reach full extension.  But... if I visuallize extending or reaching all the way to the opposite wall, or the horizon, there's a very subtle change in how I reach, and how things are aligned in my arm.


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## Telfer

theletch1 said:


> I think that perhaps I'm not doing too good a job of explaining myself when I talk about energy flow.  What I'm really doing when I "flow" energy is making a movement and then extending that motion over the horizon.  We're getting into one of those areas of the internal arts that are very easy for me to picture in my head but difficult for me to get across via this media.


I thank you for your efforts Jeff.


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