# Respecting men for their bodies, and women for their brains



## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

So another thread in the locker room reminded me of a question that could make for a good discussion, and maybe some surprises.

My wife is very intelligent, but she is also very beautiful. Of course, while she appreciates the attention her looks get her, it quickly becomes loathsome if it detracts from the respect for her intelligence.

Basically she would rather be admired/respected for her intelligence than her looks. And I believe her, it's not one of those "I _hate_ it when people tell me I'm so beautiful" attention stunts. It disgusts her to only be noticed for looks.

So we were watching a movie the other night, where the heroine enters the scene in a slinky evening gown, all done up, and all the men in the room are leering at her. She says "how would you feel if you were treated like that?"

My first thought was "I would LOVE IT!" And I told her so. Which started an interesting discussion. I've polled a couple of my guy friends about this, but no other women, but all of the guys agreed -- to be able to walk into a room full of confident, powerful women, and be able to turn their heads by our looks alone would be so much fun -- it's just not gonna happen, though.

Now the questions for discussion:

1. Is this a surprise to other women here?

2. Do other men feel this way?

3. Is it because men are "sight-oriented" when it comes to romance/sex that they want to be desirable by sight?

4. Or is it that we just want what we don't have - since men in our society aren't considered to be generally "good looking" on their own, but character matters, that if we got that, we would hate it, too?

The discussion ended with me, mock-poutingly, insisting: "Don't only pay attention to my brains! I have a _body_, too y'know!"


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 6, 2008)

Well I think everyone wants to be admired for their looks.  That seems to be pretty normal.  However, if you are only admired for your looks and nobody gives a care what you think well that would get really old, really quick.

I used to work a long time ago in a very upscale environment with a lot of *really* gorgeous people. (were talking New York runway model types or just maybe a tiny notch below) They all particularly to a T disliked it when they felt they were dismissed as being clueless.  This inevitably happened to them all the time so they worked extra hard to be taken seriously intellectually.


----------



## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well I think everyone wants to be admired for their looks.  That seems to be pretty normal.  However, if you are only admired for your looks and nobody gives a care what you think well that would get really old, really quick.
> 
> I used to work a long time ago in a very upscale environment with a lot of *really* gorgeous people. (were talking New York runway model types or just maybe a tiny notch below) They all particularly to a T disliked it when they felt they were dismissed as being clueless.  This inevitably happened to them all the time so they worked extra hard to be taken seriously intellectually.



So you don't think it's related to our "wiring"? Men are interested in looks, women in character? (generally speaking).


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 6, 2008)

thardey said:


> So you don't think it's related to our "wiring"? Men are interested in looks, women in character? (generally speaking).


 
You know there might be a little to that and I believe I have seen some studies particularly about how women size up mates in regards to their looking for someone that fits a genetic mix that will lead to success down the road.  So I do think we are hard wired differently but still pretty similarly. 

Still I know of no *women or men* who do not want to be found attractive and have people comment nicely on their looks and also be thought of as intelligent.


----------



## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Still I know of no *women or men* who do not want to be found attractive and have people comment nicely on their looks and also be thought of as intelligent.



But of course . . . but how many men, other than a couple of movie stars are complimented on their looks at all? Jeff Foxworthy seems to have hit it . . .

"Women's bodies were made to be alluring . . . Men's bodies were made to be able to pee while running away from large animals."

During the Renaissance, the male body was considered to be a pinnacle of beauty. When I read the short clip on "sexiest men of the year" last month -(I'm curious about such things), the picks were based on the personalities of the characters they played in the movies, not on looks at all.

I've made the joke for years -- When women "dress up" they put on less fabric, when men "dress up" they cover themselves in layers.


----------



## Jade Tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

Society as a whole values good looks. Studies have shown that objectively attractive people get paid more, etc. It's nice as a woman to have my intelligence acknowledged. Do I want to be unattractive and noticed only for my brains? Of course not. I like having my looks acknowledged as well. (Everyone does whether they admit it or not)

However, I *don't* like being "leered" at by lowlifes who only see a body. I'm more than a body. Men get noticed for their looks too, and brains are just as important. Believe it or not, there *are* good looking dumb guys out there. No thanks. 

My 17-year-old daughter is gorgeous, 6 feet tall, a natural blond, 140 pounds and a smart as whip honor student. I've asked her about guys at her school, does she like anyone, etc. Her response, "well, there's this hot guy but....he's stupid". She has no interest in a guy without brains no matter how "hot" he is. I've found the same. Most (not all mind you) but most of the really good looking guys I've known have been total *******s, thinking they're God's gift to women. Well, they never end up in any relationship for long. They end up getting dumped and usually end up with some good looking dumb girl where they maintain a shallow relationship until the next good looking shallow person comes along. 

The ultimate in a person is beauty AND brains, be they male or female. I also don't know any guys who will tolerate a dumb girl for long, no matter how good looking she is. This is where subjective good looks come in. And that is much more important IMO. That's why I don't believe in "love at first sight". Lust at first sight, but not love.


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 6, 2008)

It's not only a gender issue, there's an age element too.  

In my twenties I would never have dreamed of forming a relationship with someone shaped externally like my missus (who is, not to gild the lily, fat).  

Back then, when I too was 'prettier' than I am now, I had a succession of relationships, that never went anywhere (other than bed), with a number of physically beautiful girls/women.  

With one notable exception (she went on to take a Masters in Physics) their excellent 'externals' masked a lack of creditable 'internals' i.e. great looks but terrible personality and general lack of other traits good for building long term relationships.

I got so soured by the whole circus that I essentially opted out of the game for ten years or more and stopped looking for a wife.  

As the years rolled on, I got to know the woman who would later become my intended.  I liked her from the beginning but had an issue reconciling my 'internal image' of how my ideal woman should _look_ with the incontrovertible fact that I had found a woman who was ideal.  The small hinderance that she was seriously involved with a friend of mine was not an inconsiderable factor too .

Eventually, circumstances changed and she, via the auspices of a mutual friend, extended the notion that maybe we should get 'together' - the rest is history {and an expensive ring :lol:}.

My point (you knew I had one, right? ) is that, twenty years ago, hormones would've prevented me from forming a relationship with the woman who is right for me because she was not physically what society has taught me to want.  My own maturity (in years) allowed me to see past the physical to the things that truly matter.

It is a general truism that the younger you are, regardless of your gender, the more focussed on looks you are.  

When I was a mid-'teen, I was not appealing to the eye of my female contempories, which meant that I spent a lot of time pursuing my interests rather than girls (teenage egos being what they are, it was easier not to play than be rejected ).  As I left my 'teens, things settled down in the physical department and the fact that I had intelligence and 'interests' came into their own, such that I used to be accused (falsely, I hasten to add ) of being a babe-magnet.  That's an interesting inversion of the OP actually, as I used to protest that girls only liked me because I could hold a conversation and had a fund of anecdotes (some witty, some erudite) to draw on ROFL.

However, I've never been comfortable with being the centre of attention solely for how 'pretty' I'm perceived to be, so I can understand to an extent how some women feel if that is all they get, regardless of what other positive attributes they have.  I would dislike that total focus on the physical too, even if I did understand that, at first meeting, appearance forms a large part of how people react to you.  It's because, in the end, reaction based on looks is only temporary but is inhernetly limiting.  If someone takes a liking to you because of how you look but does not get the physical gratification they instinctively seek then that positive first impression can turn to a long-term negative.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 6, 2008)

Interesting thread.

I do believe there are some wiring issues.  I believe men in general tend to be visually oriented, and are more easily "aroused" in some way thru visual stimulation.  I believe women also possess this wiring, but it is either less prominent, or else women are conditioned by society to repress and deny their visual interests.  This is probably a big reason why the vast majority of pornography is geared toward a male's point of view.  It is accepted that most women simply lack any interest in it, whether or not that viewpoint is accurate.

I also believe that everyone would like to be confident that others find them physically attractive.  I just cannot believe anyone would actually like to be seen as ugly.

However, I can see how one's physical attractiveness could become a hinderance, and even an annoyance.  There is a difference between someone casting an appreciative second-glance at someone, and downright rude and intrusive leering.  Attention from the wrong person could even become a real danger, if that person is mentally imbalanced or is lacking in moral character and becomes a stalker who might do someone physical harm.  

I am also sure that people, both men and women, would like to be respected for their intelligence.  The perception that one's physical attractiveness implies mental weakness would probably be quite annoying for anyone.

There are some people, male or female, who are downright exhibitionists and love attention, especially centered around their physical attributes.  I suppose for those people, a room full of leering people would provide for a sexual rush, as long as they are confident that there is no threat of actual danger from the crowd.


----------



## Archangel M (Feb 6, 2008)

[sarcasm]Oh poor me. Being so good looking is such a burden.[/sarcasm]

I see where the original post is trying to go and I would have to agree. I would not mind being admired for my looks one bit. 

You can always prove your intelligence.


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 6, 2008)

I think that's sort of the question tho', *Angel* i.e. given a beautiful exterior can you ever really break free of it to prove your inner worth?

Also, there is a flip side to this in that if you are intelligent you can get very fed up with being expected to know the answer to all questions on every subject.  It's not so much a problem for me these days, with having had half my brain turned to mush via extreme-blunt-force-trauma, but it did used to get a bit annoying to be treated as a walking encyclopedia.

Any characteristic taken to excess and used to define you can be a burden.


----------



## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

Jade Tigress said:


> Society as a whole values good looks. Studies have shown that objectively attractive people get paid more, etc. It's nice as a woman to have my intelligence acknowledged. Do I want to be unattractive and noticed only for my brains? Of course not. I like having my looks acknowledged as well. (Everyone does whether they admit it or not)
> 
> However, I *don't* like being "leered" at by lowlifes who only see a body. I'm more than a body. Men get noticed for their looks too, and brains are just as important. Believe it or not, there *are* good looking dumb guys out there. No thanks.
> 
> ...



But what about the "decent-looking" guy. Sure, women may think he's cute, or something, but will he ever hear it? I guess what I'm wondering, (and this is more of a social thought experiment more than anything), is that while women have done a good job of teaching men that they want to be liked for *both* their brains and their looks (and deservedly so, though more work needs to be done), men have been content to be liked for one or the other. 

Men who are "hot" don't seem to care how their character and brains seem, and most men don't believe they are good-looking (strong and athletic, yes, but I'll cover that in a second), so they try to get women's attention by being smart, or charismatic, or funny.

Now, about being in shape -- I don't think our society actually regards a healthy man's body as "beautiful" -- it's efficient. It goes back to the "protector/provider" mentality, which is really a thing of the past.

Sure a guy is supposed to be chiseled and strong, and suits are designed to enhance that, since that appeals to the protector gene, but in another way, isn't that a little one-dimensional for men? At the root of it, couldn't that be taken to mean that men only have one purpose -- to be used as soldiers, or personal bodyguards? Sure, we're not sex-objects, but still objects to be used.

The modern man now has access to pursue beauty in ways that have rarely been allowed in history. While some men are getting "edged out" of their realms of power by women in the workplace, other men are seeing this as a freedom to pursue "beautiful things" like art, poetry, music, family, etc.

Now, while I'm sure that there are many women who do see the beauty of men, most men aren't aware of it. Men are complimented all the time on intelligence, character, etc - things that women would be preferred to be complimented on.

But 50 years ago, there were many men who appreciated the intelligence of women, but culturally it was never said. So many women felt undervalued because the compliments they got were one-dimensional: looks. I'm wondering if men would even care that the compliments and expectations that we get are one-dimensional too? Do we, as a culture, undervalue the looks of men, just as 50 years ago we undervalued the intelligence of women?


----------



## Archangel M (Feb 6, 2008)

Would a beautiful woman [if she were able] trade in her good looks for ugliness in order to have her mind appreciated?


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 6, 2008)

I'm wondering what role culture has to play in this too?  

I am in no way seeking to aggrandise myself (as I reckon I look like a fat Gollum ) but, since I 'grew up' I have not infrequently been complimented on my looks both directly and via flirting.  I suppose the fact that I am an inveterate flirter myself has an impact on this but could it be that British women are just more open on such things?


----------



## Archangel M (Feb 6, 2008)

And how does that saying go?

"Well...stupid can be temporary, but ugly is forever".


----------



## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I think that's sort of the question tho', *Angel* i.e. given a beautiful exterior can you ever really break free of it to prove your inner worth?
> 
> Also, there is a flip side to this in that if you are intelligent you can get very fed up with being expected to know the answer to all questions on every subject.  It's not so much a problem for me these days, with having had half my brain turned to mush via extreme-blunt-force-trauma, but it did used to get a bit annoying to be treated as a walking encyclopedia.
> 
> Any characteristic taken to excess and used to define you can be a burden.



Well, that is the question. Can we get by only on being respected for "character" alone? Or do we all crave being physically attractive, too? Age notwithstanding?

When I was younger and single, I was pursued by a young woman who was very pretty and nice, but I knew she only liked me because of my social position, not because she was attracted to me in any way. It turned me off completely.


----------



## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> And how does that saying go?
> 
> "Well...stupid can be temporary, but ugly is forever".



HA!
:lfao:


----------



## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Would a beautiful woman [if she were able] trade in her good looks for ugliness in order to have her mind appreciated?



Or the flip side:

Would an ugly "action hero" type guy trade in his abilities to be "hot"?


----------



## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

thardey said:


> Or the flip side:
> 
> Would an ugly "action hero" type guy trade in his abilities to be "hot"?



I know it's weird to quote myself, but I may have tipped my hand, there.

At one point, I was a big fish in a little pond, and I got attention for that. However, at the time I was a cripple, and so not athletic at all (I used crutches and canes from 17 to 22 yrs old. Over time, that was healed.

Now, I am very athletic, and I have an excellent build for almost any physical activity (6' tall, broad shoulders, thick chest, long arms and legs), but I have a psoriasis over about 60% of my body, and part of my face, which, on a good day, makes me look like a burn victim, and on a bad day, a leper.

I can do the "action hero" stuff, and I love adventures, and have been on several, but it's hard to stay confident when I take my shirt off. Essentially my skin _is_ ugly. I don't want to be ugly any more. I'm tired of being respected for charisma. At best, my wife overlooks it. Ideally I'd have both, but some days I wonder what life would be like on the other side . . .


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 6, 2008)

Zoolander:  "That Hansel, he's soo HOT right now!"


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 6, 2008)

There's one charcteristic that transcends all others and we've avoided mentioning it so far - confidence.

That indefinable air of being comfortable with yourself overrides nearly everything else.

*Thardey* I cannot walk in your shoes so I can't know exactly what it is like to feel as you do but, in that previously referred too 'teen-time I had such bad acne that even today I still look across my back and shoulders as if I've been hit by an Alien acid burst.  I have large purple scars down my internally destroyed right arm and a big welt in the middle of my chest.  I refuse to allow these to define me, any more than I allowed what used to be my high intelligence to define me.

As humans we all react first to appearance but, given some time, those other elements that make us *"Us"* will shine through - oddly enough, the hardest 'handicap' to overcome for this step is physical beauty.  The best example that occurs to me of this is Marilyn Monroe - driven to suicide because she could not escape the trap of her sexual appeal.


----------



## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> There's one charcteristic that transcends all others and we've avoided mentioning it so far - confidence.
> 
> That indefinable air of being comfortable with yourself overrides nearly everything else.
> 
> ...



I guess most of it depends on what we let ourselves be defined by, huh?

"People will treat you the way you teach them to treat you." (Unknown Author.)


----------



## Jade Tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> I do believe there are some wiring issues.  I believe men in general tend to be visually oriented, and are more easily "aroused" in some way thru visual stimulation.  I believe women also possess this wiring, but it is either less prominent, or else women are conditioned by society to repress and deny their visual interests.  This is probably a big reason why the vast majority of pornography is geared toward a male's point of view.  It is accepted that most women simply lack any interest in it, whether or not that viewpoint is accurate.



I do believe men are more visually oriented than woman. I know for me, I don't go gaga and get all wound up and tongue-tied over a good looking guy the way guys seem to get over a good looking woman. Do I want to be with a good looking man? Hell yeah. But he has to be good looking to ME, I don't care what other people think. I have met really good looking guys who I initially found very attractive, then after getting to know them, I found them less attractive. I have also met average looking guys that became very attractive to me after getting to know them. 

Outside the initial objective observance, attraction becomes subjective. Unfortunately, because we tend to dismiss people we don't find objectively attractive, we may never get to know their true beauty. (Sukerkin's case in point).



			
				thardey said:
			
		

> But what about the "decent-looking" guy. Sure, women may think he's cute, or something, but will he ever hear it? I guess what I'm wondering, (and this is more of a social thought experiment more than anything), is that while women have done a good job of teaching men that they want to be liked for *both* their brains and their looks (and deservedly so, though more work needs to be done), men have been content to be liked for one or the other.
> 
> Men who are "hot" don't seem to care how their character and brains seem, and most men don't believe they are good-looking (strong and athletic, yes, but I'll cover that in a second), so they try to get women's attention by being smart, or charismatic, or funny.



What about the "decent-looking" guy? Will he hear it? Does the "hot" guy  hear it? I suspect not. At least not as much by random women as woman do by random men. I don't know why. It's the difference in the genders I guess. However, there are now man candy calendars for women when there didn't used to be. And male strippers, and Chippendales. Before all this, there were eye candy calendars for men, female only strippers, and showgirls. So it is changing.

I suspect, and hope, men do hear this from their partners though. Oddly, I think when in a relationship, men are more validated in their looks than woman are. It seems that woman, once the "wooing" phase is over and she has been "won over", stops hearing all the things that wooed her in the first place. Does that mean the man has stopped thinking it? Or just that he no longer feels it necessary to voice? I suspect the latter. She still wants to hear it though. On the flip-side, a woman may not be comfortable voicing "you're hot" comments even though she may be thinking it, and guys still want to hear it. But don't you also want to hear you're smart too? 

I guess it boils down to being appreciated as a whole, and not valued more for one aspect of yourself. 

I do believe you have a point about men who don't believe they are good-looking trying to get a woman's attention by demonstrating other character traits. I believe woman do the same thing. Maybe they try too hard to be "sexy", or funny, or....smart. Attraction is a very complex thing. 

I can't speak for all women, obviously as individuals with different backgrounds there will be variance on the importance of each aspect. I can only speak from my life experiences, and I don't expect they will be true of all women or all men. 

Interesting topic.


----------



## Kacey (Feb 6, 2008)

Physical appearance can cause the first look - but personality will cause the second.  Good looking people of either gender get more attention initially, but often the more average-looking will get the second look.

In The Valley of Horses, by Jean M. Auel has two characters, Thonolan and Jondalar, who are discussing women, and why the older brother, Jondalar, chooses the one he chooses:



> "Sometimes there's a real beauty with half the men trying for her, but she only looks at you.  I know you aren't stupid; you know it - yet you pass her by and go pick out some little mouse sitting in a corner.  Why?" [Thonolan]
> "I don't know.  Sometimes the 'mouse' just thinks she's not beautiful, because she has a mole on her cheek or thinks her nose is too long.  When you talk to her, there's often more to her than the one everyone is after.  Sometimes women who aren't perfect are more interesting; they've done more, or learned something."  [Jondalar]



For me, the above quote sums things up nicely - beautiful people can be great, but the "mice" can often be a lot more interesting.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2008)

thardey said:


> My first thought was "I would LOVE IT!" And I told her so. Which started an interesting discussion. I've polled a couple of my guy friends about this, but no other women, but all of the guys agreed -- to be able to walk into a room full of confident, powerful women, and be able to turn their heads by our looks alone would be so much fun -- it's just not gonna happen, though.


 
Its not  I thought this was universal...happens to me all the time... must just be me then  

In my dreams... I couldn't even type that with a straight face. But seriously, this is a good topic 



thardey said:


> 1. Is this a surprise to other women here?


 
I can't answer this one, I'm not a woman.



thardey said:


> 2. Do other men feel this way?


 
Hell Ya... maybe :idunno:

But I can see were it would be annoying after a bit. I dated a woman, before I got married that was very intelligent and very attractive and she would get incredibly annoyed at men for not looking her in the eyes when she talked.

My wife on the other hand does not take much notice of it at all. She tends to ignore most and when she does notice she asks me what is wrong with them and thinks they are weird. But there is a MAJOR cultural difference between the two. My wife is Chinese and was born and raised in North China and the woman I dated prior to meeting my wife is a westerner and was born in raised in North America.



thardey said:


> 3. Is it because men are "sight-oriented" when it comes to romance/sex that they want to be desirable by sight?


 

Possibly, but then explain why woman stop to look at the athlete or movie star. It may be we are not as picky and a bit baser in our feelings. I had a professor (a PhD) in a Sociology class in college that insisted that it was because of pregnancy that woman tended to be more picky since, according to him, in prehistory a woman carried a baby for 9 months and needed more assistance and protection so they were more picky and more monogamous than males who were more interested in reproducing to support the species kind of thing. 

But then I always thought he was just looking for excuses to justify cheating on his wife and dating his female students so take that for what it is worth. 



thardey said:


> 4. Or is it that we just want what we don't have - since men in our society aren't considered to be generally "good looking" on their own, but character matters, that if we got that, we would hate it, too?
> 
> The discussion ended with me, mock-poutingly, insisting: "Don't only pay attention to my brains! I have a _body_, too y'know!"


 
Could be.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 7, 2008)

thardey said:


> So another thread in the locker room reminded me of a question that could make for a good discussion, and maybe some surprises.
> 
> My wife is very intelligent, but she is also very beautiful. Of course, while she appreciates the attention her looks get her, it quickly becomes loathsome if it detracts from the respect for her intelligence.
> 
> ...


 
I was a fairly decent looking fellow in my twenties, while working as a bouncer. Not much to do between fights but stand around and talk to the pretty girls, it didn't take long to figure out that many didn't have much to say...getting by on looks, they never had to develop a personality. Turns out, a male buddy of mine was that gender echo. Tall, blonde, strikingly handsome body-builder...he was married for most of the time we hung out, so never had cause or occasion to hit a club together. Once, during a seperation, we hit a couple clubs. I was surprised at the feeling of being the "ugly friend"...I wasn't actually, but I was certainly not him. He'd walk into a room, and the ladies' heads would turn, tongues would loll, and drinks would magically start appearing at his table. 

Of course, I had to razz him about it mercilessly. Much of which went over hi head. A longtime girlfriend of mine (and now ex-wife) was one of those "attractive, AND a genius" people. She met him, and was immediately bored. "He's got nothing to say; no depth. He's got by on looks for so long, he never had to develop a personality." I could relate, from my nights at the door trying to find stimulating conversation...eyes eventually get sated or bored.

During a seperation of my own, a buddy tried to set me up with a typical Southern California blonde. White, perfect teeth, big, fake rack, botox-based facial blandness...absolutely stunning to look at, horrible to talk to. About 10 minutes into meeting her, I'm looking around the room and floor for something. He says, "whatcha looking for?" I says, "some ductape and a skateboard wheel I can tape in her mought to shut her up; she has nothing to say, and the sound of her innane voice is starting to grate on my nerves." Obviusly, she didn't take well to the observation, nd left to find more adoring company...after all, she had spent a lot of OPM on her looks, and clearly wanted to be admired for them.

I have always preferred to be desired for my company, conversation, etc., over looks. I started off an awkward, ugly duckling in high school, was better in college, and now as a matter of contrast only, could be considered a decent enough looking guy. "By contrast", I mean simply...I've taken care of my body through diet and exercise because of my own commitment to living a healthy lifestyle, and aside from a growing bald spot on the back of my head (which, luckily, I can't see in the mirror so I can still fool myself that it's only thinning back there) I've not fallen into the middle aged paunch thing so many of my same aged peers have. I'm still not ken-doll like my buddy (who STILL is...the bastard). but I get by. Interestingly, however, I'd still rather have a night of stellar, brilliant, adroit, conversation over coffee or wine with an amazing mind, than the "don't we all look good" company that was so cool to aim for in my 20's.

Maybe it's all that testosterone conversion to estrogen that's making me want to chat interesting people up rather than mate with the beautiful people, but it's working for me.

Beauty fades...what's left after that?

D.

PS -- Re: Sight oriented. I think that's true of men. You wouldn't bother to read the book unless the cover was interesting to you. But I know that a cover alone is not enough. There has to be good content, or I'll never make it past the Introduction.


----------



## thardey (Feb 7, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Turns out, a male buddy of mine was that gender echo. Tall, blonde, strikingly handsome body-builder...he was married for most of the time we hung out, so never had cause or occasion to hit a club together. Once, during a seperation, we hit a couple clubs. I was surprised at the feeling of being the "ugly friend"...I wasn't actually, but I was certainly not him. He'd walk into a room, and the ladies' heads would turn, tongues would loll, and drinks would magically start appearing at his table.
> 
> Of course, I had to razz him about it mercilessly. Much of which went over hi head. A longtime girlfriend of mine (and now ex-wife) was one of those "attractive, AND a genius" people. She met him, and was immediately bored. "He's got nothing to say; no depth. He's got by on looks for so long, he never had to develop a personality." I could relate, from my nights at the door trying to find stimulating conversation...eyes eventually get sated or bored.



I've got a friend who looks like an Adonis, too. Very charismatic, as well. He's actually very intelligent, but he hides that until he gets to know someone. 6'4 wide shoulders, 6% body fat - triangle-shape. You get the drift. (But when he turns sideways he almost disappears.) I'm not sure why, but he keeps people at a distance by pretending to be shallow - it's his defense, I guess. 

The cool thing about him, though, is that he doesn't consider himself "better" than others because of how he looks. His version of "beauty" is purely based on confidence. However, he is very intimidating to hang out with, and if you're not confident, either male or female, you won't last long.

On the other hand the other day he said to me "I have an admirer! It's funny, she does what men wish they could do!"

He says "She'll be listening to you, then sort of blank out, and her eyes drop and she starts staring at my chest. Then she'll look up for a second, then she starts staring at my arms. It's funny!"

That conversation partly inspired this thread.

I have another friend who was, to put it kindly, homely. He knew it, and that fact what all of his sisters were gorgeous really made him the ugly duckling. But that guy's got character to burn. He could get any girl in school to flirt with him. _They_ would be chasing _him!_ That was nothing short of pure confidence. Later he had surgery to fix some dental issues, and his jaw got completely rebuilt. Totally changed his look. Now he looks like a square-jawed rugged cowboy, _and_ he's got the charisma. He's lovin' it. (He got married right around the time of the surgery -- she fell for the charisma, not the face.)


----------



## Senjojutsu (Feb 7, 2008)

Well, it's tough for good looking "U.S. Americans" males to compete when the bar is set this high, I present Exhibit A:

_Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question_ 





 
...the prosecution rests.

----------------------------------------------------
Perfect male T-shirt text for the singles club scene:

"Tell your nipples to stop staring at my eyes."

:lol2:


----------



## thardey (Feb 7, 2008)

Senjojutsu said:


> Well, it's tough for good looking "U.S. Americans" males to compete when the bar is set this high, I present Exhibit A:
> 
> _Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question_
> 
> ...



"Because there's like more to us U.S. Americans, and such, that don't have access to to mirrors. Like in the Afghanistan, where people have to work hard, and so they, like, aren't healthy. Because I feel that they don't have gyms, and so we're privileged, I believe.


----------



## CoryKS (Feb 7, 2008)

Senjojutsu said:


> Perfect male T-shirt text for the singles club scene:
> 
> "Tell your nipples to stop staring at my eyes."
> 
> :lol2:


 
Stop attacking my monitor with coffee.  :rofl:


----------



## IcemanSK (Feb 7, 2008)

I've always been attracted to gals who are smart, in addition to being attractive. For awhile, I was very interested in a woman who was into MA & our shared faith. But the more time I spent with her, I realized she wasn't terribly interested in any intellectual pursuits. I met my wife while on a trip to spent time with this other gal. 

My wife is a woman that stirs my intellect as well as attracts me in other ways. She is, as I've said, the total package.


----------



## Langenschwert (Feb 13, 2008)

I've found it very true that extremely attractive people are more likely to have nothing to say, due to getting by on their looks.  Not always, but it's a trend I've noticed.



> What about the "decent-looking" guy? Will he hear it? Does the "hot" guy hear it? I suspect not.


 
Nope.  We don't.  Well, not often.

I've even confused intimidation with indifference, as follows:

Once I went on a date (imagine that!) with a particularly attractive woman.  We were (I thought) having a pretty decent time, with good conversation.  However, the whole time this woman wouldn't make eye contact with me, always looking to the side or down at her hands, or whatever.  I was wondering why her body language is so indifferent and fidgety, thinking that I was crashing like a Stukka divebomber off the cliffs of Dover.

So after the date, it's time to say good night, and I gave her a kiss on the cheek goodnight.  Next thing I know she's after some major lip-lock and it turned out to be a very good evening.

I later asker her what was up, and she said that she was so nervous being out with such a good-looking guy.  Brad Pitt I'm not, but I'm not homely either... decent looking would be accurate, I think.  I thought that was odd, but kind of cool and flattering.

So no, we never hear it.  Not until things have already progressed.  I'd rather have the compliments up front, thankyouverymuch.  That way I can proceed with a bit more confidence!   Just a little "Mark, you look great" would go a long way.  Way further than nervous fidgeting while avoiding eye contact. 

Best regards,

-Mark


----------



## thardey (Feb 13, 2008)

Hey that's a good point. It's hard to know what kind of impression we're making. A little feedback goes a long way!

But not too much -- guys will always like a challenge!


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 13, 2008)

Everyone has always said that I need "Intentions of Romantic Involvement" paperwork, signed in triplicate by all grandparents (whether living or otherwise) and stamped by the local Council before I realise a girl is interested in me :lol:. I do normally get the picture if they start shedding clothes mind you {and that's not much of an exaggeration :blush:}.

To my credit, I did realise that maybe my missus was interested in being more than friends ... it just took me a while and a number of conversations with mutual friends.  Even then it took a close, female, friend of both of us, to corner me at the bar in the pub one night and ask me outright before I was sure .


----------



## thardey (Feb 13, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Everyone has always said that I need "Intentions of Romantic Involvement" paperwork, signed in triplicate by all grandparents (whether living or otherwise) and stamped by the local Council before I realise a girl is interested in me :lol:. I do normally get the picture if they start shedding clothes mind you {and that's not much of an exaggeration :blush:}.
> 
> To my credit, I did realise that maybe my missus was interested in being more than friends ... it just took me a while and a number of conversations with mutual friends.  Even then it took a close, female, friend of both of us, to corner me at the bar in the pub one night and ask me outright before I was sure .



Ha! I think us men are given _way_ too much credit when it comes to recognizing "subtle" (to us) signs. 

Ladies, think about it, if we were subtle, we would come up with better lines than: "Can I buy you a drink?" We often treat women the way that we prefer to be treated. It's the golden rule! If you want to know how to get our attention, look at how we try to get your attention, and do that!


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 13, 2008)

Good point, *Thardey*!  Straightforward does work with us, ladies .

I can admit that it has worked on me in the past - a lass came over as I finished my drink, said "Can I get you another?", I said (being a reactionary neanderthal) "No, its okay but what're you drinking?" and things proceded smoothly from there.


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Feb 13, 2008)

thardey said:


> Hey that's a good point. It's hard to know what kind of impression we're making. A little feedback goes a long way!
> 
> But not too much -- guys will always like a challenge!


 
Speak for yourself, bro.


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Feb 13, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Good point, *Thardey*! Straightforward does work with us, ladies .


 

In point of fact, straightforward is ALL that works with us. Subtle hints do not work. comically obvious hints do not work. Blatantly obvious hints do not work, OUT WITH IT already!


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 13, 2008)

Where did I hear that before?  Billy Connolly?  Robin Williams?  Regardless, still funny as anything :lol:.


----------



## Jade Tigress (Feb 14, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> In point of fact, straightforward is ALL that works with us. Subtle hints do not work. comically obvious hints do not work. Blatantly obvious hints do not work, OUT WITH IT already!



You guys are right about this, and us ladies should know it. We always hint and use subtlety, and then we complain when we don't get what we thought we were hinting so strongly for on a Birthday, or Christmas or something. Or, when we don't get help with something around the house. It's because we don't just come out and say it! 

Well, that's the conundrum in the differences between gender. Women think we're being obvious, and men don't see it at all.


----------



## Langenschwert (Feb 14, 2008)

Jade Tigress said:


> You guys are right about this, and us ladies should know it. We always hint and use subtlety, and then we complain when we don't get what we thought we were hinting so strongly for on a Birthday, or Christmas or something.


 
Damn straight.  A good pickup line is "Nice shoes, wanna ****?"   To which I'd reply: "Thank-you, and yes".  A bit of an exaggeration, but you get the idea.

Now ladies, you might be wondering _why_ we don't pick up on subtle clues.  It's not that we _can't_.  Guys are bred to be hunters, and any person that can be raised to track animals over bare rocks can pick up subtle clues.  It's that we _won't_.  The reason for this is that the fear of rejection is too great to be worth the risk.

Yet again, a case in point from my own experience:

Back in high school, I started hanging out with a certain female, who I found to be rather attractive.  We hung out on our free periods every day, just the two of us, talking and getting to know one another really well.  This went on for quite some time, until one evening I thought I'd give her a phone call (which I never had before).  So I phoned her, and instantly she got all distant and weird and quiet like, and our conversation, which had always been good, became strained and tense.  She was obviously uncomfortable with the fact that I called, which I found weird in and of itself.  So after chatting for about 15 minutes, I said goodnight.  And she never talked with me again.  So I ended up losing a friend for trying to act on what I thought was interest.

The fact of the matter is, when we're younger, guys tend to get punished for acting on what they think are clues showing interest.  If a woman coming and hanging out with me every day to the exclusion of everyone else isn't a sign of interest (and apparently for her, it wasn't), then my little adolescent brain didn't know what it was.  I still don't.  So, you learn that it's safer to ignore what might be subtle clues and only respond the the blatantly obvious.

Best regards,

-Mark


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 14, 2008)

Jade Tigress said:


> Well, that's the conundrum in the differences between gender. Women think we're being obvious, and men don't see it at all.


 
It may also be cultural as well. My wife is from China and does not always hint or use subtlety she goes STRAIGHT for the complaining 

Actually that is only partially true, she does not hint or use subtlety she just tells me what she wants for her birthday or what she wants done around the house and I am good with this, I take direction well.


----------



## thardey (Feb 14, 2008)

Jade Tigress said:


> You guys are right about this, and us ladies should know it. We always hint and use subtlety, and then we complain when we don't get what we thought we were hinting so strongly for on a Birthday, or Christmas or something. Or, when we don't get help with something around the house. It's because we don't just come out and say it!
> 
> Well, that's the conundrum in the differences between gender. Women think we're being obvious, and men don't see it at all.



Ah, but who gets to "cross the border" so to speak. To us boys, it would seem to be much easier to be straightforward and honest, and to put it honestly: Blunt.

However, then the women get stuck with a higher fear of rejection. (Welcome to our world.) If a man "misses" a cue, she may figure that either he is dense, and so not worth her time anyway; distracted, because if he was paying attention to her he would have picked up the clue, which means she would always be competing for his attention; or simply not interested right now. But she's not rejected.

If she comes right out and asks, then she could be rejected. On the other hand, _all_ women appear to have the _ability_ to be blunt, if not the courage. Many good men don't have the ability to be subtle, or at least, to properly interpret the subtlety of women.

Of course, it's the bold man indeed who can approach a woman who hasn't given him an invitation of some sort. Same would go for women, unless men learned to give subtle invitations (that would be food for comedy, right there!) So, to help women be bolder, men must be more subtle, but to help men be more subtle (per Lang's post), women must be bolder.

In other words, I've thunk myself into a corner.


----------



## Jade Tigress (Feb 15, 2008)

I ran across this on CNN yesterday.



> Women interpret others&#8217; emotions more quickly and accurately than men do &#8212; except when the emotion is anger, which men recognize as readily as women. Brain-imaging studies done at Stanford University have found that women use different neural pathways than men when identifying emotions in others.
> 
> Female brains showed greater activation of deeper, subcortical brain structures, like the thalamus, the limbic structures, the brain stem, and the cerebellum (which are connected to emotions), while males showed more activation in the frontal- and posterior-cortex areas (which are associated with reasoning). &#8220;This implies different emotional-intelligence capabilities for women and men,&#8221; says Louann Brizendine, M.D., a clinical professor of psychiatry at the University of California at San Francisco and the author of the new book _The Female Brain_ (Random House, $25, www.amazon.com).
> 
> ...



This part of the article addresses emotions, but I think it can be applied to subtleties in general. Men are _generally_ more straightforward than woman are.


----------

