# How to defeat a Wrestler



## Yoshiyahu

I was woundering if you guys had experience or advice on how to defeat a wrestler or grappler with using strickly Wing Chun techniques. Some people think you have to study BJJ or Greco Wrestling to be able to defeat a wrestler. But I was wounder if there are any Wing Chun Purist who know how to defeat a western wrestler using strickly Wing Chun tecnhiques and principals?


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## jarrod

1) it's going to depend greatly on the grappler you are facing, since there are many styles of grappling, many types of grappler, & many methods of attack within each style.

2) while grappling is not the be all end all of fighting, the best anti-grappling is grappling.  nobody has more practice at beating wrestlers than other wrestlers.

jf


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## MJS

I agree with Jarrod on this one.  While there are grappling concepts in alot of arts, IMO, if one really wants to take their training up a level, they'll need to work with someone who specializes in the art the person is trying better themselves in.  If someone wants to better their weapon defense, it may be a good idea to work with someone in a weapon based art.  The same for grappling.  

Now, this isn't to say that the WC person, the TKD person or any other art, has to quit their base art and take up BJJ for 20yrs.  Instead, take the WC grappling defenses, and fine tune them.  Working with a grappler will certainly help in this area.


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## seasoned

Yoshiyahu said:


> I was woundering if you guys had experience or advice on how to defeat a wrestler or grappler with using strickly Wing Chun techniques. Some people think you have to study BJJ or Greco Wrestling to be able to defeat a wrestler. But I was wounder if there are any Wing Chun Purist who know how to defeat a western wrestler using strickly Wing Chun tecnhiques and principals?


 
Are we talking dojo, tournament, sport, or self defense. Granted I dont want to be taken to the ground, but if I am, I am not going to play their game. I dont want it to sound easy, and I always think in self defense terms, so I guess I would stick to the rule breakers. *lets keep it clean with no biting, eye gouging, no kicking to the knees, or head butting. *These would be my first chose for self defense. Every art will tell you, that their art, is the best for defeating someone. All I really know is, when they legalize eye strikes in any competition there will be a lot of pain taking place in a hurry. Remember you can take sport and turn it into self defense, but you cant take self defense and turn it into sport. Just some of my thoughts. J *
*


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## Nolerama

I'll assume you'll want to keep the fight standing.

Don't get taken down, and make sure your strikes count towards a knockout, and are faster than the other guy's.

It's not a WC vs grappler thing, it's a striker vs grappler. However, I feel that if the guy manages to take you down, then you might have a problem... So familiarize yourself with some ground technique IMHO.


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## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> I was woundering if you guys had experience or advice on how to defeat a wrestler or grappler with using strickly Wing Chun techniques. Some people think you have to study BJJ or Greco Wrestling to be able to defeat a wrestler. But I was wounder if there are any Wing Chun Purist who know how to defeat a western wrestler using strickly Wing Chun tecnhiques and principals?




It never hurts to familiarize yourself with what others are doing.  Just "assuming" that certain techniques/principles will work against "a grappler" (Generalized) is what gave birth to the Gracie's.  All the kung fu, karate, tkd, hapkido...ect they all thought they had the answer untill being humbled in numerous challenge matches.  Also, *in order to truly apreciate the speed, skill, and athleticism of even a mediocre wrestler you need to get on the mat with him before dangerously assuming.  *How will you know what to practice for if you don't have an idea what's in a grappler's bag???  When I whent from kickboxing to MMA (just training, not competing), I knew my hands and feet very well and would rather (much rather) slug and kick it out on the feet.  I had no illusions of becoming a grappler, but still learned how to do the basic chokes and locks as well as body positioning.  Believe me, it was an eye opener.  Everyone has a plan untill they get punched in the chin or slammed by a wrestler! LOL  These guys can disguise their shots and do them faster....FAR FASTER than what most people believe in their heads while practicing a scenario based flow of techniques.


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## Yoshiyahu

All very excellent Advice. I love the input.

*dungeonworks Said*:"_How will you know what to practice for if you don't have an idea what's in a grappler's bag_???" 

*Yoshiyahu: *A grappler bag is the black long heavy bag on the floor. You practice trasitioning around the bag. Grabbing the bag. Pulling it etc.Kinda like the bag the mma guy used on the movie "Never Back Down".

_Also Dungeonworks doesn't Wing Chun also teach Chokes and Joint Locks?_

*Nolerama: *_Don't get taken down, and make sure your strikes count towards a knockout, and are faster than the other guy's.
_
*Yoshiyahu says*: Nolerama _How do you advoid getting taken to the floor_?

*seasoned,*_ I am speaking of Tourament,Dojo,sport or friendly challenge match between other martial artist?_


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## profesormental

Greetings.

Self defense situations is very different from sport type situations.

So a meaningful answer could be better formulated if the situation was defined. If not, only general information would be extracted.

Hope that helps.


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## jarrod

Yoshiyahu said:


> All very excellent Advice. I love the input.
> 
> *dungeonworks Said*:"_How will you know what to practice for if you don't have an idea what's in a grappler's bag_???"
> 
> *Yoshiyahu: *A grappler bag is the black long heavy bag on the floor. You practice trasitioning around the bag. Grabbing the bag. Pulling it etc.Kinda like the bag the mma guy used on the movie "Never Back Down".


 
i think dungeonworks meant "grappler's bag of tricks" rather than a grappling dummy or a floor bag.



Yoshiyahu said:


> *Yoshiyahu says*: Nolerama _How do you advoid getting taken to the floor_?


 
in most cases unless you knock out a grappler before he initiates a takedown, you will not be able to defend his takedown without resorting to grappling techniques.  notable exceptions are if he shoots & runs into a knee strike or an uppercut.

from what i know of WC it typically relies on linear attacks.  i would recommend not over-committing to a full-on straight blast unless you have knocked his head back with an initial strike.  if you blast straight in without breaking his centerline, you will most likely run straight into a double leg takedown.  almost all grapplers will instinctively change levels & attack the legs when faced with a high pressure linear attack.  

hope this helps,

jf


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## GBlues

Well, I think this is an obvious answer.

1. If you have room to move don't let him grab you.

2. If you don't he's probably going to, and then your probably going to the ground. If he's good, more than likely.

Simple direct answer, but it's really not. Grappling is a very natural art I've noticed. It really doesn't take long to pick up some life saving skills in that department. The little bit that I've learned has served me alright in my to-shindo classes. Most of those guys had been doing it longer than me, and I did ok. Not great, but if I had known nothing, I'd of been getting it alot worse. So even a little is better than none. Also, grappling looks slow sometimes in the UFC and other of type matches, but it can go down very fast. Faster than most people think. We went for 2 minute rounds and I'm desperately out of shape, cause after the second bout I couldn't go on. 4 minutes is a long time when your rolling around on the floor with a guy, trying to get a choke or hold or anything like that. Endurance is key. You really should try it out, you'll probably really like it, and be surprised at how fast you can pick some of that stuff up.


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## seasoned

jarrod said:


> i think dungeonworks meant "grappler's bag of tricks" rather than a grappling dummy or a floor bag.
> 
> 
> 
> in most cases unless you knock out a grappler before he initiates a takedown, you will not be able to defend his takedown without resorting to grappling techniques. notable exceptions are if he shoots & runs into a knee strike or an uppercut.
> 
> from what i know of WC it typically relies on linear attacks. i would recommend not over-committing to a full-on straight blast unless you have knocked his head back with an initial strike. if you blast straight in without breaking his centerline, you will most likely run straight into a double leg takedown. almost all grapplers will instinctively change levels & attack the legs when faced with a high pressure linear attack.
> 
> hope this helps,
> 
> jf


 

Call it luck, maybe. What you train is what you will use. Case in point, from an experience I had with a person that did a two leg take down on me. During a class I was teaching, some visitors stopped in to observe my class. The class was at a local college I was teaching at for years. Sure, from time to time people would stop in because this was the only class on campus, and I was always open for new students. This particular night was different though, this night 3-4 young males came in at the middle of my class and were watching and commenting to each other about the class. I stopped my class and tried to interact with them but got a weird feeling about the situation. Toward the end of class, when the sparring part came, I was ask if I wanted to spar, by one of the visitors. I felt this was a challenge and was taken back by the invitation to spar in my own DoJo. I figured once they watched the sparring, that it would be enough to discourage them. At the end of class, we bowed out, class was over, and we were preparing to leave and I was asked again. I am not sure which of us made the mistake, and I do regret the out come, but the worst happened. Once we bowed and squared off I moved first, thinking I could easily discourage him. My leg went up, half power, to feel him out but as my leg returned to the floor he moved in very fast and grabbed both my legs. With no prior training in anything but GoJu, I tucked my chin, grabbed his hair, and by the time we hit the ground my thumb was deep into him eye. The match ended that fast. Proud, no, lucky, maybe. I am a firm believer that what you train at you will use in the heat of battle, not sport, but battle. When my legs were grabbed, and I felt threatened and in danger, it was in someone elses hands, not mine. The teachings that were drilled into me coming up through the ranks were, never go to the ground, but if you do, then you have a fraction of a second to react before the dreaded ground meets your back. With legs tied up, one hand grabbing his hair, and only one hand free, I did whet instinct taught me, I survived. Out come, lacerated eye, trip to the hospital for him, court action, with the college being sued. End result, my students verified everything, and because of the entire situation, it was deemed self defense, case closed. Did I luck out, yes, in more ways then one. Do I want to grapple, no, I am a GoJu practitioner, and my kata contain just enough to help me at the right times. Do I condemn people that cross train, no way, it just makes me look deeper into my kata, knowing that it is a cruel world out there, and in the blink of an eye, or in this case, the plucking of one, things happen very fast, so train hard, and expect anything, knowing that your mind conditioned reflexes will take over.


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## jarrod

seasoned said:


> Call it luck, maybe. What you train is what you will use. Case in point, from an experience I had with a person that did a two leg take down on me. During a class I was teaching, some visitors stopped in to observe my class. The class was at a local college I was teaching at for years. Sure, from time to time people would stop in because this was the only class on campus, and I was always open for new students. This particular night was different though, this night 3-4 young males came in at the middle of my class and were watching and commenting to each other about the class. I stopped my class and tried to interact with them but got a weird feeling about the situation. Toward the end of class, when the sparring part came, I was ask if I wanted to spar, by one of the visitors. I felt this was a challenge and was taken back by the invitation to spar in my own DoJo. I figured once they watched the sparring, that it would be enough to discourage them. At the end of class, we bowed out, class was over, and we were preparing to leave and I was asked again. I am not sure which of us made the mistake, and I do regret the out come, but the worst happened. Once we bowed and squared off I moved first, thinking I could easily discourage him. My leg went up, half power, to feel him out but as my leg returned to the floor he moved in very fast and grabbed both my legs. With no prior training in anything but GoJu, I tucked my chin, grabbed his hair, and by the time we hit the ground my thumb was deep into him eye. The match ended that fast. Proud, no, lucky, maybe. I am a firm believer that what you train at you will use in the heat of battle, not sport, but battle. When my legs were grabbed, and I felt threatened and in danger, it was in someone elses hands, not mine. The teachings that were drilled into me coming up through the ranks were, never go to the ground, but if you do, then you have a fraction of a second to react before the dreaded ground meets your back. With legs tied up, one hand grabbing his hair, and only one hand free, I did whet instinct taught me, I survived. Out come, lacerated eye, trip to the hospital for him, court action, with the college being sued. End result, my students verified everything, and because of the entire situation, it was deemed self defense, case closed. Did I luck out, yes, in more ways then one. Do I want to grapple, no, I am a GoJu practitioner, and my kata contain just enough to help me at the right times. Do I condemn people that cross train, no way, it just makes me look deeper into my kata, knowing that it is a cruel world out there, and in the blink of an eye, or in this case, the plucking of one, things happen very fast, so train hard, and expect anything, knowing that your mind conditioned reflexes will take over.


 
seasoned, thanks for sharing your story, it is very instructive.

i didn't mean to give the impression that grapplers are indestructable, anyone is vulnerable to attacks such as you mentioned, & anyone interested in self-defense should train that sort of fighting.  based on your description, however, it sounds as if your opponent may have thought he was in a sport-fighting/sparring situation while you felt you were in a self-defense situation.  i think that one lesson to be learned here is that in all sparring situations the rules must be discussed & agreed upon before sparring begins.  as a grappler, i wouldn't go into a karate school & expect to be allowed to do takedowns unless it was agreed upon first.  but i also wouldn't expect to lose my eye, either.  

as i mentioned, i believe it is possible to beat a grappler without being one yourself, but the OP was asking how to do it with strictly WC techniques.  i don't know if hair pulling or eye gouging are WC techs, so i was going with what i know about that art.  for my part, i have to admit i sometimes get frustrated with the idea some folks have that a poke in the eye, a shot to the groin, or a bite will completely unravel a grappler.  as you mentioned in your post, these techniques are instictual, & not off-limits to a grappler either.  

an important concept in judo is _kazushi_, the off-balancing of your opponent before attempting to throw him.  good _kazushi_ can be a sophistocated gripping technique, or it can be a simple eye gouge.  many grapplers train for sport only, but i think it is a mistake to assume that all grapplers are not fully prepared for life-or-death assaults.

in any case, we are treading ground that has been covered many times.  as usual, it will come down to the individual practitioners as much as their respective arts.  every approach to fighting has it's advantages & disadvantages.  

with all respect,

jf


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## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> All very excellent Advice. I love the input.
> 
> *dungeonworks Said*:"_How will you know what to practice for if you don't have an idea what's in a grappler's bag_???"
> 
> *Yoshiyahu: *A grappler bag is the black long heavy bag on the floor. You practice trasitioning around the bag. Grabbing the bag. Pulling it etc.Kinda like the bag the mma guy used on the movie "Never Back Down".
> 
> _Also Dungeonworks doesn't Wing Chun also teach Chokes and Joint Locks?_
> 
> *Nolerama: *_Don't get taken down, and make sure your strikes count towards a knockout, and are faster than the other guy's._
> 
> *Yoshiyahu says*: Nolerama _How do you advoid getting taken to the floor_?
> 
> *seasoned,*_ I am speaking of Tourament,Dojo,sport or friendly challenge match between other martial artist?_


 
1) Yes, the 'bag' as its been pointed out, is his skill set.  

2) Many arts teach jointlocks and chokes.  However, as I said in my first post, it may be necessary to look at arts that specialize in a particular area if you want to expand.

3) How do you avoid getting taken down?  Work with a grappler.  Now, I'm not saying that you have to totally rearrange your technique, but, working with a grappler, will allow you to make some small changes to make the defense even better.  Think of it this way...if you can successfully defend a takedown against a grappler, then you should have no problem with a takedown attempt by your average Joe.


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## hungfistron

> Do I condemn people that cross train, no way, it just makes me look deeper into my kata, knowing that it is a cruel world out there, and in the blink of an eye, or in this case, the plucking of one, things happen very fast, so train hard, and expect anything, knowing that your mind conditioned reflexes will take over.




Well said.  


There will always be a technique that will counter another technique in any style or martial art.  If you train to depend on one particular favorite to use on a particular style then you may lose more than a mere match.  As *Seasoned* stated its best to train until your techniques are not thought of, but rather they work themselves out of you. 


There are no shortcuts to any style, everyone will determine for themselves whether are not a technique will work based on their amount of practice, and effort.  Don't assume that any wrestler will beat anyone that just practices standup, and vise versa.  It all depends on the situation, and the level of skill of the martial artist.


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## Si-Je

Using only WC/WT concepts should suffice.  
    Rooting in stance is very important and extremely under appreciated.
re-direction/pivot of the opponents force and inertia using WC concepts.
The good old "sprawl" for closer shoots.
of course, attack and defense being the cause and result of the other, speed in response to opponents energy, follow up in striking (and kicking) immediately is cruitial to any WC/WT defense.
    And my favorite, the anti-grappling techniques utilized in WT although others may give it little credit, I've seen it in action against grapplers/wrestlers/JKD/BJJ etc. and executed successfully many times.  Even experimented with my own personal experiences and training.  
I still think that training in an opponent's art/style will only enslave you to their way of fighting, thinking, and stratagy.  Cross training can be useful and even fun, but focus on mastery and practical application of your art would be more useful in a fight.


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## geezer

Si-Je said:


> Using only WC/WT concepts should suffice....
> I still think that training in an opponent's art/style will only enslave you to their way of fighting, thinking, and stratagy. Cross training can be useful and even fun, but focus on mastery and practical application of your art would be more useful in a fight.


 
Dunno. I take a broad view of what's WT/WC. So yeah, I think it _will _suffice if applied properly. Still, How are you going to develop good skill with those techniques if you don't train hard with a _good_ grappler? Hell, Emin worked years with Raiza to get his version of WT "anti-grappling" polished. And he's not exactly a "slow learner"!


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## Si-Je

Training "with" a good grappler is a good thing. Going to the classes and training exclusively in that style is another thing altogether.

We went to a BJJ seminar a couple of years back and took one of our students. He had one arm. Throughout the entire seminar we had to show him WT/WC anti-grappling techniques because the BJJ and wrestling techniques they were teaching all required two hands/arms.
If you learn to play/fight by those rules, you will be limited to those very grappling "rules" and techniques.

We workout with wrestlers, grapplers, etc, and it's really fun. But, I don't study these techniques and try to utilize them on an opponent. Why would I?
Why use up all that effort and energy to try to force a technique to work for me against giagantic hubbie when WC concepts save my skin everytime? Without the Pain and strain of using brute strength in disguise as leverage?
Over three years of Ju-Jitsu when I was a teenager, and two years of weight training taught me what it truely takes to make those techniques work when you truely need them. I'm a female, I can gain muscle mass, lift weights and all that jazz, but so can a man, and his muscle mass is just bigger/more. Better to stick to WC concepts and use his strength, speed, inertia, and force against him. Re-direction, deflection. And a wee bit of chi helps too. lol! 

check these out, instructional seminar demonstrating WT concepts against grappling.  Just basic stuff to give you another way of looking at defending such attacks.





 




 
Reminds me, I need to practice this stuff more.  Having a toddler put a halt to my training with a quickness! lol!  (she's already doing WT anti-grappling, bicycle kicking and such. lol! Diaper changes are fun!)


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## jarrod

Si-Je said:


> Why use up all that effort and energy to try to force a technique to work for me against giagantic hubbie when WC concepts save my skin everytime? Without the Pain and strain of using brute strength in disguise as leverage?


 
no offense intended, but this statement shows that you really have no understanding of jujitsu.  i think we should be able to have this discussion without being derogatory towards each other's art.

jf


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## bs10927

I'm new in Wing Chun but is there sprawling?  i thought that was a wrestling concept?


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## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Training "with" a good grappler is a good thing. Going to the classes and training exclusively in that style is another thing altogether.


 
So basically you're against cross training?  Of course, in order to fully understand something, it may require a bit more than just working, but thats just my opinion. 



> We went to a BJJ seminar a couple of years back and took one of our students. He had one arm. Throughout the entire seminar we had to show him WT/WC anti-grappling techniques because the BJJ and wrestling techniques they were teaching all required two hands/arms.
> If you learn to play/fight by those rules, you will be limited to those very grappling "rules" and techniques.


 
Well, this is where we need to be able to take the material and adapt it to what our base art is.



> We workout with wrestlers, grapplers, etc, and it's really fun. But, I don't study these techniques and try to utilize them on an opponent. Why would I?
> Why use up all that effort and energy to try to force a technique to work for me against giagantic hubbie when WC concepts save my skin everytime? Without the Pain and strain of using brute strength in disguise as leverage?
> Over three years of Ju-Jitsu when I was a teenager, and two years of weight training taught me what it truely takes to make those techniques work when you truely need them. I'm a female, I can gain muscle mass, lift weights and all that jazz, but so can a man, and his muscle mass is just bigger/more. Better to stick to WC concepts and use his strength, speed, inertia, and force against him. Re-direction, deflection. And a wee bit of chi helps too. lol!


 
And this is why technique IMO, is more important than strength.  I love to roll with people who try to 'fight' everything I do.  I just relax and it frustrates the hell out of them.  Then I look for my opening. 



> check these out, instructional seminar demonstrating WT concepts against grappling. Just basic stuff to give you another way of looking at defending such attacks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reminds me, I need to practice this stuff more. Having a toddler put a halt to my training with a quickness! lol! (she's already doing WT anti-grappling, bicycle kicking and such. lol! Diaper changes are fun!)


 
I'll have to watch those when I get home.  Youtube is on the no-no list at work.


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## Yoshiyahu

Jarrod. My lineage of Wing Chun has Eyegouges, Thrusting fingers in eyes, Arm breaks, Leg breaks, Joint locks, Take downs and also Hair pulling to punch him in the face!

I have been hearing that Wing Chun schools don't teach this now. But Wing Chun is a street fighting art. So whats allowed in the street is allowed in Wing Chun. That being said all is permissable.

What do you think?


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## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> Jarrod. My lineage of Wing Chun has Eyegouges, Thrusting fingers in eyes, Arm breaks, Leg breaks, Joint locks, Take downs and also Hair pulling to punch him in the face!
> 
> I have been hearing that Wing Chun schools don't teach this now. But Wing Chun is a street fighting art. So whats allowed in the street is allowed in Wing Chun. That being said all is permissable.
> 
> What do you think?


 
I've been training in Kenpo for quite some time, and pretty much every tech. in the system has what you mentioned above.  Not quite sure of what you're trying to say, but....while those tools are certainly good ones, I wouldn't want to rely on just those.  In other words, this is why I say its good to know some ground work.


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## dungeonworks

jarrod said:


> i think dungeonworks meant "grappler's bag of tricks" rather than a grappling dummy or a floor bag....



Yes, this is exactly the meaning of "bag" I was aiming for.  Thanks for pointing that out Jarrod!!!


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## Si-Je

jarrod said:


> no offense intended, but this statement shows that you really have no understanding of jujitsu. i think we should be able to have this discussion without being derogatory towards each other's art.
> 
> jf


 

I did not mean to offend, or be derogatory about grappling.  I'm meaning to make the observation from my experiences in Ju-Jitsu, that there is much more strength needed than advertised.  I loved Ju-Jitsu, it was really a fun art but it wasn't the BJJ that is so popular today.  More of a traditional Japanese style. 
Those techniques work much better if one is matched against someone closer to their size and strength.  Sure, I could do throws on much larger men in the dojo, but it is easier to throw your opponent if you can get them stunned, or offbalenced first.  Hense, striking, kicking, etc.
The joint locks are executed useing both your hands on one of your attackers arm or wrist.  This ties up your hands and commits them to the joint lock, whilist your attacker still has another hand/arm free to punch you.
The Judo/JuJitsu throws usually leave you with your back to your opponent for cruitial seconds before you throw them down.  (and yet, we followed the opponent to the ground rarely.  That was the point of throwing them.  Get them on the ground while keeping your feet. )  But, in reality, the opponent usually ends up taking you with them in a throw or a takedown, so what was taught in the dojo was incomplete.  Yet, we learned ground fighting too, but once again, this ground fighting utilizes alot of energy, more so if the attacker weighs more (more weight on your chest, etc, makes it hard to breathe and such) or is much stronger than you, leverage will help, but you are still using alot of strength against strength.
I am very small, short, small boned, lean frame, etc.  Using this type of strategy on the ground against someone who is twice my weight (littarly) will not help me in truth, and I have injured myself resisting and using force on force with these "leveraged" techniques against large people.
The best strategy is to get the grappler off you asap, get yourself in position to strike and repeatedly following up until they are done.  Change their balance, motion, and body position so they cannot get set to lock out on you, or become positioned for a strong hold.
Negate their structure, balance, and force re-directing them into a position that is more advantageous for you.

I love wrestling, I love ju-jitsu!  Ground fighting was sooooo fun!  But, WC/WT concepts utilized against a grappler and in ground fighting is just more effecient to me than trying to return the same energy that a stronger, bigger attacker throws at me.  
I know that grappling and BJJ have evolved and have been tested against alot of styles in the past and have done very well against alot of traditional martial arts; but that doesn't sway my understanding of WC's effectiveness, practicality, and usefulness in using against a grappler of any sort.


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## Si-Je

MJS said:


> So basically you're against cross training? Of course, in order to fully understand something, it may require a bit more than just working, but thats just my opinion.
> 
> Everyone seems to love the idea of cross-training these days.  sigh.  I have "cross-trained", I've taken several styles for long periods of time.
> I just prefer to train one at a time to focus primarialy on what that art teaches.
> It's like learning a new language.  Are you going to take German at the same time while your learning Portuguese?  Wouldn't that take longer for you to become fluent in either language?
> 
> As for grappling, it's not my cup of tea.  I've done various versions of wrestling/grappling type arts in the past.  I've found the art I want to use, "become fluent in" so to speak, because it is so universal.
> 
> Besides, the question was what would one use against a Grappler that was 100 percent Wing Chun.  I answered that question, and my answer does not include cross-training in another art.  I includes perfecting WT principles and concepts in combat, the ring, street, etc.
> It's a great question and deserves a great answer.


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## MJS

Si-Je said:


> MJS said:
> 
> 
> 
> So basically you're against cross training? Of course, in order to fully understand something, it may require a bit more than just working, but thats just my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone seems to love the idea of cross-training these days. sigh. I have "cross-trained", I've taken several styles for long periods of time.
> I just prefer to train one at a time to focus primarialy on what that art teaches.
> It's like learning a new language. Are you going to take German at the same time while your learning Portuguese? Wouldn't that take longer for you to become fluent in either language?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I've said many times in similar discussions on the cross training subject, I feel that the person should have a solid base art first and THEN look at other things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for grappling, it's not my cup of tea. I've done various versions of wrestling/grappling type arts in the past. I've found the art I want to use, "become fluent in" so to speak, because it is so universal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thats fine.  Of course, like I also always say, if someone wants to expand their knowledge in a certain area, they're going to have to look outside the box.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, the question was what would one use against a Grappler that was 100 percent Wing Chun. I answered that question, and my answer does not include cross-training in another art. I includes perfecting WT principles and concepts in combat, the ring, street, etc.
> It's a great question and deserves a great answer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmm...if we look back to the first UFC, we saw style vs. style match ups.  We saw people who, for quite some time, were one dimensional fighters.  I think we also saw how that worked too.  On a slightly different note, you should check out a thread I started today in the General MA section.  Its called, "Does one prepare you better than the other?"  I kind of hit on comments such as you made in this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> I did not mean to offend, or be derogatory about grappling.  I'm meaning to make the observation from my experiences in Ju-Jitsu, that there is much more strength needed than advertised.  I loved Ju-Jitsu, it was really a fun art but it wasn't the BJJ that is so popular today.  More of a traditional Japanese style.
> Those techniques work much better if one is matched against someone closer to their size and strength.  Sure, I could do throws on much larger men in the dojo, but it is easier to throw your opponent if you can get them stunned, or offbalenced first.  Hense, striking, kicking, etc.
> The joint locks are executed useing both your hands on one of your attackers arm or wrist.  This ties up your hands and commits them to the joint lock, whilist your attacker still has another hand/arm free to punch you.
> The Judo/JuJitsu throws usually leave you with your back to your opponent for cruitial seconds before you throw them down.  (and yet, we followed the opponent to the ground rarely.  That was the point of throwing them.  Get them on the ground while keeping your feet. )  But, in reality, the opponent usually ends up taking you with them in a throw or a takedown, so what was taught in the dojo was incomplete.  Yet, we learned ground fighting too, but once again, this ground fighting utilizes alot of energy, more so if the attacker weighs more (more weight on your chest, etc, makes it hard to breathe and such) or is much stronger than you, leverage will help, but you are still using alot of strength against strength.
> I am very small, short, small boned, lean frame, etc.  Using this type of strategy on the ground against someone who is twice my weight (littarly) will not help me in truth, and I have injured myself resisting and using force on force with these "leveraged" techniques against large people.
> The best strategy is to get the grappler off you asap, get yourself in position to strike and repeatedly following up until they are done.  Change their balance, motion, and body position so they cannot get set to lock out on you, or become positioned for a strong hold.
> Negate their structure, balance, and force re-directing them into a position that is more advantageous for you.
> 
> I love wrestling, I love ju-jitsu!  Ground fighting was sooooo fun!  But, WC/WT concepts utilized against a grappler and in ground fighting is just more effecient to me than trying to return the same energy that a stronger, bigger attacker throws at me.
> I know that grappling and BJJ have evolved and have been tested against alot of styles in the past and have done very well against alot of traditional martial arts; but that doesn't sway my understanding of WC's effectiveness, practicality, and usefulness in using against a grappler of any sort.



My Sifu also has master level rank in Hakko Ryu and Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu as well as Wing Chun.  He can flow from one to the other at the speed of thought practically and says both are very complimentary...and painfully shows this quite regularly.  I though BJJ locks hurt but man, the larger joints and chokes feel pleasant compared to the wrist locks!  I was a *BIIIIIG *doubter of wristlocks untill I trained here.

Also Si-Je, just to clarify what I said earlier in the thread was from a "get familiar" angle and not to go train and master all things grappling.


----------



## MJS

dungeonworks said:


> My Sifu also has master level rank in Hakko Ryu and Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu as well as Wing Chun. He can flow from one to the other at the speed of thought practically and says both are very complimentary...and painfully shows this quite regularly. I though BJJ locks hurt but man, the larger joints and chokes feel pleasant compared to the wrist locks! I was a *BIIIIIG *doubter of wristlocks untill I trained here.
> 
> Also Si-Je, just to clarify what I said earlier in the thread was from a "get familiar" angle and not to go train and master all things grappling.


 
You made some great points in this post!!   People always tend to think that cross training involves so much work.  I've been training in Arnis for a long time and only last year, tested for my black belt.  With the time I've been training, one would assume I'd be higher ranked.  IMO, its not about that.  What it is about is learning, and if that takes X number of years, so be it.  I'm far from a BJJ master, but I know enough of the basics.  

You also mentioned your inst. being able to flow from one thing to the next.  Its amazing how arts that blend together well can do that.


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## Si-Je

I am aware of the flow from one technique to the other in ju-jitsu.  And as a master, you can do whatever you like because you've mastered what you know.
Plus, WC has plenty of joint locks, and throws/takedowns of it's own.  No one art monopolizes a type of technique.  (although I've never seen anything like chain punching in any other art before.  Kempo does have a great continious flow of hand attacks that could be similar in concept) Their are many variants of the same if not similar techniques in many different arts.

cross-training can seriously confuse the student especially in wing chun.
I've see this many times with our students, other people's students in WC and it usually is more detremental when the student is just starting WC.  After more of a full understanding of the art is achieved cross-training is more doable.
But...
We had a two year student that decided to cross-train BJJ.  He left us for 8 months and came back to spar my hubbie on the mats.  He didn't tell us he went off to train BJJ, he wanted to keep it as a surprise to test out the WT anti-grappling.
It was a very entertaining sparring match, but our student was unable to lock out on Hubbie, much less complete most of the techniques he tried.  So, no, I didn't get to see much of BJJ in action, it looked pretty ineffective and incomplete to me, because I didn't know what techniques he was trying to do, nor did I get to see any of them completed.  

Moral: this frustrated our student to no end, he'd paid a ton of money to cross-train, and wasted valuble time in WC/WT training.  He felt embarressed when he confessed to us that he'd left to cross-train because he knew we didn't think it was a good idea.  We don't get upset about cross-training, or forbid it, it just usually causes the student more trouble than it was worth.  
That's when we started teaching the anti-grappling earlier in classes to keep the students well rounded in their self defense at an earlier stage.

In reguards with defending against a grappler.  Chainpunching, kicking, kneeing as they shoot in, I've found to be very effective.  Destroy the head, for the body follows the head every time reguardless what art you take, simple phisiology.

"Attack is defense, defense is attack, each is the cause and result of the other." - Lau Tzu

If they pick you up off your feet to slam you down, keep the neck locked and let them throw you.  (I've done this in Ju-Jitsu as well as in WC/WT)  The give you the head, then keep that gift!  This will take most of the power out of their throw, keep your back from getting slammed flat and losing your breath, keep control of the opponent while being thrown.  When on the ground, either use the neck/head to get up with, or let go and start using chi sau sensitivity on your back, chainpunching, leg sensitivity and leverage the oppoent's weight off your body, and re-direct and deflect their energy as you would standing.
roll, corkscrew, and pivot your way out of the hold/position of your attacker and come up "swingin" (i.e. kneeing, kicking, and chainpunching) letting your attackers inertia and body to help you up as you attack.  
Don't let them up, don't let them get collected, set, or escape.  Punch until their done.

for defense against a clinch standing up against a wall or "cage", use chum kui form (when on arm is on top of the other and you  pivot from side to side for example) and use the same technique/concept against the "clinch".  This will change their body position and balance freeing you for immediate attack to keep them from re-grouping and flowing to another attack or strategy.  (I just learned this one from Hubbie, it was sooo cool!  And surprisingly effortless in nature against a really aggressive and strong clinch)

Again, good rooting in stance will give the foundation for further action, whatever it needs to be.  Pivoting when the opponent's force is too great will unbalance their attack and allow you to respond with your own attack.  A good old fashioned kick, or knee to the face as they shoot in is often effective even if you don't get a tooth knocked out or a TKO, it still disturbs the direction of their inertia and body position severely.
Or just chainpunching or chainpalm striking the back of the head/neck if they are so inclined to shoot in to your legs low enough to expose to you.
These can all be executed in combination, simultaneously with one another, in different succession depending on the need of the situation.
Sensitivity, flow, response, and relaxation are key, as well as not anticipating the opponent's next move.

Hense, why I don't wish to cross-train in grappling arts.  This would encourage me to anticipate their next move, try to read them to guess what technique they might try next, and teach me to work within the restraints of their art.
One needs to adapt, react to what is given, stay relaxed, and feel the energy of the opponent to respond correctly to their attack.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

*MJS *Let me clarify my statement. I am not saying anything about relying on street combat techniques. What I was pointing out to Jarrod is When I first started learning Wing Chun Hair pulling and eye gouge were some of the very basics I was taught in fighting. Also I was taught to use anything as weapon from a pair of pliers you can carry around in your pocket, to combination lock for a locker. All make very good weapons and are compatible with Wing Chun. In my lineage Knee stomping and scraping down the shin is also a technique. My only point to Jarrod was that Wing Chun does in fact teach hair pulling and eye gouging, since he stated he didn't know if they were WC techniques?


*Jarrod Said*:"_but the OP was asking how to do it with strictly WC techniques. i don't know if hair pulling or eye gouging are WC techs, so i was going with what i know about that art_."



MJS said:


> I've been training in Kenpo for quite some time, and pretty much every tech. in the system has what you mentioned above. Not quite sure of what you're trying to say, but....while those tools are certainly good ones, I wouldn't want to rely on just those. In other words, this is why I say its good to know some ground work.


----------



## GBlues

Well, I'm going to say this and probably catch alot of heat. If a grappler shoots for your legs and you stand still, and chain palm strike his neck or head, if he's got your legs and he's good most likely your going down. Once on the ground the reality is you are fighting his fight, it's not your fight anymore. As far as chain punching the head, that could cause some serious problems for you if you strike in the wrong place, and break your hand. The head is hard. You know in the UFC there were guys that tried chain punching the head, and more often if you watch they aren't landing solid blows number one, the head is round, so there being deflected and taking away much of the power. Secondly most of them ended up in a ground fight. If you are a striker, and that's all you know, you can not let the grappler grab you that's it. Unless you have some wresting or jujitsu, or somekind of grappling experience your done. My instructor routinely in our classes ends the ground game in about 30 seconds. That's not very long. Yeah, he's the instructor, and his partners have been doing it for less time, but some of those guys have 3 or 4 years in grappling. So, to say that your going to break your hand on this guys head, or drop into a perfect stance, that is immovable, well come on. Mistakes happen. Not to mention, the simple fact, that if all you do is strike, regardless of well we have specific techniques to deal with grapplers or not. It will work some of the time, you get in a confrontation with somebody that has some experience and things might change. Also 8 months is not a long time in any martial art. 

Now, I will say this she is right about jujitsu taking more strength than people let on. Grappling is alot about power. If you don't have the strength to force the guy to do what you need to do, in order to do the technique, probably you won't get that technique. That's why some of Royce Gracies matches went so long. Not because it was superior skill that one out. It was superior endurance. He let the guy grapple himself to death until he could force a technique on him, and get the submit. 45 minutes is a very long time to do battle. I mean shoot 2 minutes is a long time. Now, not taking anything away from Royce, cause he did have some very fast bouts, but it's still something to consider. The other thing is this if you haven't gone to the ground in a confrontation, and your on equal footing with your opponent, what happens next? If you can grapple you go for the shoot, cause your not winning and have to assume that he either doesn't want to go to the ground or doesn't know how. So if you have a good ground game, that range can be taken into consideration as possible avenue to end the fight. IF you don't it's not really much of an option because again your out of your element. Anyways that's ,my piece.:asian:


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## Si-Je

If you punch the back of base of the head and/or neck you can kill a person.  (third lumbar for example) We're not punching the forehead like they did repeatedly in the old UFC fights.  Plus, most of those guys that did that threw out all their technique as soon as they climbed in the ring. 
"chain"Palmstriking the head is just as effective if not more, and a great supplement.
As for the stance, I don't think anyone's claiming that rooting in your stance is invincible or makes you immovable forever.  But it surely buys you enough time to re-direct and attack your opponent.
And sure, if a grappler gets ahold of you you are in trouble, but you still don't have to play the grappling game.  That's where sensitivity comes in.  WT/WC sensitivity, and concepts in deflection of your opponent.

The WT groundfighting is fairly new in the game of wing chun, and folks haven't seen much of it yet.  But, we hope to change a bit of that soon.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

*Si-Je: *Your Responses are on mastery Level. You sound like you really know your stuff. Wow, I believe all arts are useful. I believe some arts take longer to be able to fight with than others. Plus your hubbie sounds like he is pretty vetted. I don't think Someone who is in a beginner in Wrestling is going to be your hubby. Now A high school championship wrestler Might do alot better than your average Joe who pays for classes. But still How many years has your Hubbie been training WC. Then look at the wrestlers he defeats and subtract how many years they been practicing Wrestling. Its just simple mathematics. A BJJ fighter who been training for 20 years is going to beat a Wing Chun who been training for 3 years in some cases. An a Wing Chun Guy who has been training for 10 years will more than likely floor a BJJ Guy. Simple isn't it.

No style is superior. Only the Fighter is better. Thats what really matters. But I am not really interested in wrestling. I think those who train for great strength and endurance make better wrestlers. In other words if you can bench press 300lbs and Jump rope for 30 minutes straight with out stopping there aint too many people who are going to be able to out wrestle you. But this is My Humble Opinion. Just like Andre the Giant. A Gracie or average size BJJ wrestler would not be able to Submit Andre the Giant no way. An your average sumo wrestler would mop the floor with a BJJ fighter. But thats because they have more body mass and strength.

So when it comes to Wrestling Skill and technique matter. But if you both have the same skill level than the winner of the fight will be the bigger and stronger. So then Size, Strenght matter.

*Si-Je:* Your points on using wing chun tactics to defeat a wrestler is well noted. Check out this street fight of these two girls. You will see later in clip one girl rushes in for a take down. The Zakeshia turns the take down around an ends up on a dominant posistion an then grounds an pounds.

Check the video out:





 

Now these two were evenly match. One was a little bit bigger in weight. But that didn't matter she still loss. Even though Zakeshia doesnt do Wing Chun she was still dominant by using Wing Chun principles such as her sloppy take downs an reversals. She use the attackers force against her an threw her to ground. The heavier girl thought her weight colliding with Zakeshia would knock Zakeshia down. But Zakeshia just asbord her body crash an bounced off her an then swung her around to the ground. I think this amateur video is good a video showing ground fighting in street.


Here is another video of Black guy using his bigger body mass to ground and pound

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuGPk2VfkJM&feature=related


----------



## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> All very excellent Advice. I love the input.
> 
> *dungeonworks Said*:"_How will you know what to practice for if you don't have an idea what's in a grappler's bag_???"
> 
> *Yoshiyahu: *A grappler bag is the black long heavy bag on the floor. You practice trasitioning around the bag. Grabbing the bag. Pulling it etc.Kinda like the bag the mma guy used on the movie "Never Back Down".
> 
> _Also Dungeonworks doesn't Wing Chun also teach Chokes and Joint Locks?_
> 
> *Nolerama: *_Don't get taken down, and make sure your strikes count towards a knockout, and are faster than the other guy's.
> _
> *Yoshiyahu says*: Nolerama _How do you advoid getting taken to the floor_?
> 
> *seasoned,*_ I am speaking of Tourament,Dojo,sport or friendly challenge match between other martial artist?_



Yoshiyahu, I meant it as "Grappler's bag of tricks".  Sorry for the confusion.  I just think it's imperative to have some type of understanding how other stylists may see a situation.  I guess another way of putting it would be for a Wing Chun/Tsun guy to walk a mile in a grappler's shoes.  Same could be said for practitioner's of any style.  If you don't, you end up training in stale hypothetical situations, such as the one at my first Tae Kwon Do school back in the day.  The knife defense in that school was *PERECTLY* designed to maximize the damage your attacker intended to impose on you! LOL

I know the UFC or MMA is a sport oriented fight game, but it's the closest substitute to a real fight that we may have and if their is one thing we should have learned from the early days is to never neglect aspects of your training.  EVERYBODY neglected grappling, so in the begginning, Gracie was subbing most everybody.  Stylists of all disciplines were lost and took what the skinny Brazillian had to offer.  Now, the Gracies are just a pioneering name in the sport and not domineering as they once were.

The Wing Chun I study is a principle based art and not a technique based art.  If you stay within the principles, blocks, locks, and chokes happen as do defense against grappling as I am told.  Sifus' demonstrated things that surely would work.  Problem is, you have to do everything perfect which is the X-Factor.  Me personally, I'd resort to grabbing a throat, deep tissue massage of the eye, grab the nut bag and squeeze, twist flesh, grab a clavicle...ect.  The problem is, a good grappler can do all of this too but likely with better positioning and body control than non grapplers (Body Control meaning they move you where they want you).


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## dungeonworks

GBlues said:


> Well, I'm going to say this and probably catch alot of heat. If a grappler shoots for your legs and you stand still, and chain palm strike his neck or head, if he's got your legs and he's good most likely your going down. Once on the ground the reality is you are fighting his fight, it's not your fight anymore. As far as chain punching the head, that could cause some serious problems for you if you strike in the wrong place, and break your hand. The head is hard. You know in the UFC there were guys that tried chain punching the head, and more often if you watch they aren't landing solid blows number one, the head is round, so there being deflected and taking away much of the power. Secondly most of them ended up in a ground fight. If you are a striker, and that's all you know, you can not let the grappler grab you that's it. Unless you have some wresting or jujitsu, or somekind of grappling experience your done. My instructor routinely in our classes ends the ground game in about 30 seconds. That's not very long. Yeah, he's the instructor, and his partners have been doing it for less time, but some of those guys have 3 or 4 years in grappling. So, to say that your going to break your hand on this guys head, or drop into a perfect stance, that is immovable, well come on. Mistakes happen. Not to mention, the simple fact, that if all you do is strike, regardless of well we have specific techniques to deal with grapplers or not. It will work some of the time, you get in a confrontation with somebody that has some experience and things might change. Also 8 months is not a long time in any martial art.
> 
> Now, I will say this she is right about jujitsu taking more strength than people let on. Grappling is alot about power. If you don't have the strength to force the guy to do what you need to do, in order to do the technique, probably you won't get that technique. That's why some of Royce Gracies matches went so long. Not because it was superior skill that one out. It was superior endurance. He let the guy grapple himself to death until he could force a technique on him, and get the submit. 45 minutes is a very long time to do battle. I mean shoot 2 minutes is a long time. Now, not taking anything away from Royce, cause he did have some very fast bouts, but it's still something to consider. The other thing is this if you haven't gone to the ground in a confrontation, and your on equal footing with your opponent, what happens next? If you can grapple you go for the shoot, cause your not winning and have to assume that he either doesn't want to go to the ground or doesn't know how. So if you have a good ground game, that range can be taken into consideration as possible avenue to end the fight. IF you don't it's not really much of an option because again your out of your element. Anyways that's ,my piece.:asian:




Thanks for saving me the typing!!!  Also, note how many times guys in kickboxing or MMA get kicked in the knee and elbowed in the head....and the fight continues far more than it is ended.

Great post GBlues.


----------



## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> *MJS *Let me clarify my statement. I am not saying anything about relying on street combat techniques. What I was pointing out to Jarrod is When I first started learning Wing Chun Hair pulling and eye gouge were some of the very basics I was taught in fighting. Also I was taught to use anything as weapon from a pair of pliers you can carry around in your pocket, to combination lock for a locker. All make very good weapons and are compatible with Wing Chun. In my lineage Knee stomping and scraping down the shin is also a technique. My only point to Jarrod was that Wing Chun does in fact teach hair pulling and eye gouging, since he stated he didn't know if they were WC techniques?
> 
> 
> *Jarrod Said*:"_but the OP was asking how to do it with strictly WC techniques. i don't know if hair pulling or eye gouging are WC techs, so i was going with what i know about that art_."


 
Ok, sorry about that.  Must've missed that other post while trying to keep up with everything.


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## Si-Je

Thanks for the compliment, I hope to one day reach a level of high compitence.  Hubbies trained for a long time in WT and WC, he's really tough and loose at the same time.  
I was big headed with my skill in Ju-Jitsu when we met and I first started training.  I was really good, confident, and achieved rank in that art.  He had a really hard time converting me totally to the Wing Chun way of fighting.  (about a good two years of training before my stubborn, Irish, punkrocker, thick headed mentality actually started to truely "get it")!
I've been an irritating student, (not that I ment to be disrespectful or hard) but, because I had such a hard time letting go of old training, and erasing old muscle memory.  (my body would just react the way I was taught before I could think) 
The ju-jitsu still messes me up when we get to the really close-in fighting of Wing Chun.  (working on grade 4 stuff, just getting introduced to bui gee) I keep wanting to grab (or grapple) throw, choke and stuff.  I noticed right away that whenever he teaches me the next level of WT/WC and I'm not familiar with that range or movement I fall right back into ju-jitsu.  ACK!  Frustrating to both of us, I can't help it sometimes, until I start getting comfortable with the new technique, range or whatever.
I wish I could have learned WC instead of ju-jitsu back when I was a kid, my WC training would not have been so hampered.  I always pick up new technique fast in any art, except WC/WT.  (it really ticks me off sometimes! lol!)  But, I think that's because I've trained like 4-5 other arts prior to learning WC/WT.  (That's probably why I grab the head/neck when picked up off the ground in a grapplers shoot-in/takedown.  Can't seem to get rid of that particular ju-jitsu technique/reflex.  But it seems to go well with WT anyways.)
We've noticed that new students to WC that have never taken another art before progress MUCH faster too.  Empty cup and all that.  
But with everyone wanting to cross-train, we're coming across the same problems with more and more people coming to learn WC.  So, I guess I was good training for my teacher too. lol!


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## Si-Je

dungeonworks said:


> Thanks for saving me the typing!!! Also, note how many times guys in kickboxing or MMA get kicked in the knee and elbowed in the head....and the fight continues far more than it is ended.
> 
> Great post GBlues.


 

The technique when kicking in the knee is different in WC than in kickboxing.  
the elbow technique is different in WC than in kickboxing.
You can't look at a strike from another art, and judge that just because a guy can "take it" from a kickboxer or other that they'll have the same reaction to technique from a completely different art.

I've heel kicked large, tough, and heavily muscled men in the knee and their knee collapses just fine.  (I don't kick full force of course but in training full force isn't needed, their body position is still changed like I want it to)
You use a kickboxing/mui tai kick, kicking shin to shin or whatever is completly different energy than a WC hook kick or heel kick which will bring an opponent down/collapse the knee whether or not you break it.  (which is more highly likely especially if their big and strong)


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## Si-Je

ATTACK OF THE CHI! 
Check out this guy from Sifu Fungs school, I love this guy.  He explaines the concepts of WC really well in reguards to dealing with wrestlers, or whatever.

part 1 of 2




 
part 2




 
This is some of the stuff I'm starting to really learn now.  Believe it or not (don't care) it works, and is as effective as it is weird.


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## mook jong man

> I've heel kicked large, tough, and heavily muscled men in the knee and their knee collapses just fine.


 
The shin is a good target too , ever walked into the edge of a coffee table .
 My Sifu showed me once exactly where he aimed his low heel kick and it was just below the knee , slightly to the inside of the shin , there seems to be a nerve point there .
 He did it lightly on me and it caused excruciating pain even though he hardly used any power .


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## Sukerkin

Nice video links, *Se-Ji*.  

I'm always a bit suspicious of things that are framed in a somewhat 'Cult-like' fashion with 'hidden wisdom' and so forth but I know from my own years as a Lau-Gar practitioner that the fundamentals of Wing Chun are quite sound and would never dream of trying to argue against something that I know from personal experience works very well as a practical art :tup:.


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## Yoshiyahu

Okay Understandable. I make mistakes too Its all apart of reading. Were not perfect readers I suppose. 



MJS said:


> Ok, sorry about that. Must've missed that other post while trying to keep up with everything.


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## Yoshiyahu

Si-Je check out your signature. You have Strong spelled wrong as "*Stong*"


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## Yoshiyahu

*Si-Je* what Lineage does your Hubbie teach?

Because My Sifu often taught chokes,holds,Chin-Na and neck and head grabs along with claw to the face. The first thing I do is grab the head when someone shoots an bury their head to ground if I am fast enough. I was wondering does your hubbie not teach head and neck grabs? As for following back to your comfort zone? Are you speaking of sparring? When you revert back to Ju-Jitsu? Personally I think Judo or Ju-Jitsu compliments Wing Chun very nicely. An so does Muay Thai or Tae Kwon Do. A strong Karate fighter who learns the soft side of Wing Chun along with the flow would be very dangerous as well!

I love the Judo throws. If you can perform them on someone in street thats just impressive. The attackers is on the ground ready to be stomped before he knows it!



Si-Je said:


> Thanks for the compliment, I hope to one day reach a level of high compitence. Hubbies trained for a long time in WT and WC, he's really tough and loose at the same time.
> I was big headed with my skill in Ju-Jitsu when we met and I first started training. I was really good, confident, and achieved rank in that art. He had a really hard time converting me totally to the Wing Chun way of fighting. (about a good two years of training before my stubborn, Irish, punkrocker, thick headed mentality actually started to truely "get it")!
> I've been an irritating student, (not that I ment to be disrespectful or hard) but, because I had such a hard time letting go of old training, and erasing old muscle memory. (my body would just react the way I was taught before I could think)
> The ju-jitsu still messes me up when we get to the really close-in fighting of Wing Chun. (working on grade 4 stuff, just getting introduced to bui gee) I keep wanting to grab (or grapple) throw, choke and stuff. I noticed right away that whenever he teaches me the next level of WT/WC and I'm not familiar with that range or movement I fall right back into ju-jitsu. ACK! Frustrating to both of us, I can't help it sometimes, until I start getting comfortable with the new technique, range or whatever.
> I wish I could have learned WC instead of ju-jitsu back when I was a kid, my WC training would not have been so hampered. I always pick up new technique fast in any art, except WC/WT. (it really ticks me off sometimes! lol!) But, I think that's because I've trained like 4-5 other arts prior to learning WC/WT. (That's probably why I grab the head/neck when picked up off the ground in a grapplers shoot-in/takedown. Can't seem to get rid of that particular ju-jitsu technique/reflex. But it seems to go well with WT anyways.)
> We've noticed that new students to WC that have never taken another art before progress MUCH faster too. Empty cup and all that.
> But with everyone wanting to cross-train, we're coming across the same problems with more and more people coming to learn WC. So, I guess I was good training for my teacher too. lol!


----------



## jarrod

Yoshiyahu said:


> Jarrod. My lineage of Wing Chun has Eyegouges, Thrusting fingers in eyes, Arm breaks, Leg breaks, Joint locks, Take downs and also Hair pulling to punch him in the face!
> 
> I have been hearing that Wing Chun schools don't teach this now. But Wing Chun is a street fighting art. So whats allowed in the street is allowed in Wing Chun. That being said all is permissable.
> 
> What do you think?


 
i think that it sounds like a very effective form of WC.  i also think that if your WC includes joint locks & takedowns, then grappling is included in your art.  so when you asked how to defeat a grappler, i was assuming that you were asking from a perspective of pure striking.  

also, my styles of jujitsu include all of the techniques above.  sport grappling is the most prevalent form of grappling, but many grapplers don't neglect the down & dirty elements either.

jf


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## Si-Je

LOL!  That's been like that forever!  We're not perfect spellers either.  HAHAHAHa.!!
Thanks.


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## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> *Si-Je* what Lineage does your Hubbie teach?
> 
> Because My Sifu often taught chokes,holds,Chin-Na and neck and head grabs along with claw to the face. The first thing I do is grab the head when someone shoots an bury their head to ground if I am fast enough. I was wondering does your hubbie not teach head and neck grabs? As for following back to your comfort zone? Are you speaking of sparring? When you revert back to Ju-Jitsu? Personally I think Judo or Ju-Jitsu compliments Wing Chun very nicely. An so does Muay Thai or Tae Kwon Do. A strong Karate fighter who learns the soft side of Wing Chun along with the flow would be very dangerous as well!
> 
> I love the Judo throws. If you can perform them on someone in street thats just impressive. The attackers is on the ground ready to be stomped before he knows it!


 
Hubbie teaches head and neck throws, I'm just haveing a hard time learning those well.  He's the only one I have to work with and him being 6'4" and me 5'4" I feel like I'm over-reaching everytime I try to reach for his head/neck.  Gotta throw a kick in there at the same time to work, takes a little more to pick up.
I can do it when somone shoots in to grapple my legs, because, well, they just give you their head.  But standing is difficult for me.

Usually I revert to Ju-Jitsu (fighting that though) when he has me deflecting a punch while "shooting in" with advanced stance or such to the point we're body to body standing.  3rd range.  I come in that close I want to throw, or choke (we did alot of chokes while standing up in Goshin Ju-Jitsu, we'd strike first to "tenderize the meat" before we threw too.  But every technique was only done with the right side.  Very bad)
When I feel body on body contact my reflex is to leg sweep, hip or shoulder throw, or wrap the arm for standing joint locks and breaks.  This NEVER works on Hubbie.  I've tried repeatedly for 4 years!  Especially the throws (Mr. black belt in Judo, ack!)  
Throws work better when you feed off the opponents forward energy.  The wilder, faster and stronger the better.  And keeping your feet is cruitial, otherwise there's no point to thowing the guy!  To me it's akin to getting a punch in while getting punched at the same time.  
But, all this is "small circle" ju-jitsu and mess's up my foreward force.  My energy goes everywhere.  (That's why he calls me sparky, I guess.  lol)

As for stomping on the ground after a throw, had a couple of favorite ju-jitsu moves for that after a throw where you stand on their neck and twist their arm around that same neck standing leg.  Good stuff!  If you can keep the arm and your own feet after the throw.  

His lineage is Sifu Fung and Sifu Boztepe.


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## Si-Je

dungeonworks said:


> I know the UFC or MMA is a sport oriented fight game, but it's the closest substitute to a real fight that we may have and if their is one thing we should have learned from the early days is to never neglect aspects of your training. EVERYBODY neglected grappling, so in the begginning, Gracie was subbing most everybody. Stylists of all disciplines were lost and took what the skinny Brazillian had to offer. Now, the Gracies are just a pioneering name in the sport and not domineering as they once were.


 
I never saw a Gracie fight a Japanese Ju-Jitsu fighter.  Or a Wing Chun fighter.


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## Si-Je

mook jong man said:


> The shin is a good target too , ever walked into the edge of a coffee table .
> My Sifu showed me once exactly where he aimed his low heel kick and it was just below the knee , slightly to the inside of the shin , there seems to be a nerve point there .
> He did it lightly on me and it caused excruciating pain even though he hardly used any power .


 
That's what we aim for in heel kick too.  good explanation of heel kick


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## Si-Je

jarrod said:


> i think that it sounds like a very effective form of WC. i also think that if your WC includes joint locks & takedowns, then grappling is included in your art. so when you asked how to defeat a grappler, i was assuming that you were asking from a perspective of pure striking.
> jf


 
This is a common misconception of WC.  Joint locks and takedowns have always been apart of WC/WT.  Again, the Japanese or Brazillians don't have a monopoly on joint, chokes, throws or takedowns.  Many, Many arts have these techniques, sometimes in the higher ranks only.  Savate (street, not sport), and Zipota have these techniques, Chinese "wrestling" has been around forever, even Muy Tai.


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## Yoshiyahu

Oh let me clarify my Statement. What I mean about how do you defeat a Wrestler is from standing up. With out being taking to the ground. So from striking standing Joint locks and standing throws and takedowns. How do you defeat a Ground fighter who trying to wrestle you an take you down to ground?



jarrod said:


> i think that it sounds like a very effective form of WC. i also think that if your WC includes joint locks & takedowns, then grappling is included in your art. So when you asked how to defeat a grappler, i was assuming that you were asking from a perspective of pure striking.
> 
> also, my styles of jujitsu include all of the techniques above. sport grappling is the most prevalent form of grappling, but many grapplers don't neglect the down & dirty elements either.
> 
> jf


----------



## GBlues

Yoshiyahu said:


> Oh let me clarify my Statement. What I mean about how do you defeat a Wrestler is from standing up. With out being taking to the ground. So from striking standing Joint locks and standing throws and takedowns. How do you defeat a Ground fighter who trying to wrestle you an take you down to ground?


 
Don't let him grab you. Move around alot! IF you've got room. ANother thing too, if he shoots, you can step back into a wide horse stance for stability. Sink your knees as you drop your elbow into the guys clavicle area. My father did that to me when my wrestling buddies in highschool were showing me things. Stopped me dead in my tracks. Dropped straight to my knees. From there you can keep slamming elbows into that region while mixing it up with elbows to the side of the face or even a good shot to the temple. Be wary about striking with elbows to the temple region, or even to the base of the neck where the spine meets the head. This can cause serious injury, and even death. This is a life or death deal, not trying to stop your buddy that's into grappling when your sparring. After you have stopped him from the shoot with the elbow you may be able to push him off of you and get away. Another effective way is when he shoots throw your legs out behind you like your going to lay belly down on his back. Keeps your legs further away, and frees your arms up again for elbow, strikes, and punches. For me it's a rather difficult move and is just really putting off the inevitable fact that now your grappling. YOu can also when you throw your legs out behind you snake your arm, ( either one) around his throat performing ( I believe correct me if I'm wrong), a guillotine choke. He'll either A: Try to gain control of your legs, B: Break the choke, or C: try to get out of it by standing up. HOld on! Throw your legs further out, putting more of your weight on his back, you have leverage on your side now. DOn't let go, till he taps, (sparring), or is unconscious,(self-defense). Those are ones that I usually try to work with depending on the situation and have used them all, to varying degrees of success. I hope that was helpful. Generally this last one ususally for me anyways only works against somebody that thinks they can wrestle or grapple but doesn't really have a clue. Cause really there are lots of ways to get out of those for grapplers and wrestlers. I have some knowledge of grappling but there are others here that most assuredly could and would make mince meat out of me on the ground. Again I hope this was helpful.


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## Yoshiyahu

I am no black belt in Judo. I wish. But I love to add a little of judo in my Wing Chun. I like to interelate styles to confuse someone I am sparring with. Most of the time I tell people I practice Tai Chi. So when we spar they have preconceive notion Of how I am going to spar. But actually I have been studing the Tai Chi Seriously for less than a Year. I started seriously studing the Tai Chi This pass summer. So I guess its been about six months. I have been practicing the Wing Chun since I was 16 and Now I am 32. So I use other tactics to keep them guessing so they can't form a strategy. I use high kicks from time to time so they think maybe he is a kick boxer. Then when they attempt to close the gap to stop my kicks. I turn up the Wing Chun.




Si-Je said:


> Hubbie teaches head and neck throws, I'm just haveing a hard time learning those well. He's the only one I have to work with and him being 6'4" and me 5'4" I feel like I'm over-reaching everytime I try to reach for his head/neck. Gotta throw a kick in there at the same time to work, takes a little more to pick up.
> I can do it when somone shoots in to grapple my legs, because, well, they just give you their head. But standing is difficult for me.
> 
> Usually I revert to Ju-Jitsu (fighting that though) when he has me deflecting a punch while "shooting in" with advanced stance or such to the point we're body to body standing. 3rd range. I come in that close I want to throw, or choke (we did alot of chokes while standing up in Goshin Ju-Jitsu, we'd strike first to "tenderize the meat" before we threw too. But every technique was only done with the right side. Very bad)
> When I feel body on body contact my reflex is to leg sweep, hip or shoulder throw, or wrap the arm for standing joint locks and breaks. This NEVER works on Hubbie. I've tried repeatedly for 4 years! Especially the throws (Mr. black belt in Judo, ack!)
> Throws work better when you feed off the opponents forward energy. The wilder, faster and stronger the better. And keeping your feet is cruitial, otherwise there's no point to thowing the guy! To me it's akin to getting a punch in while getting punched at the same time.
> But, all this is "small circle" ju-jitsu and mess's up my foreward force. My energy goes everywhere. (That's why he calls me sparky, I guess. lol)
> 
> As for stomping on the ground after a throw, had a couple of favorite ju-jitsu moves for that after a throw where you stand on their neck and twist their arm around that same neck standing leg. Good stuff! If you can keep the arm and your own feet after the throw.
> 
> His lineage is Sifu Fung and Sifu Boztepe.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> ATTACK OF THE CHI!
> Check out this guy from Sifu Fungs school, I love this guy. He explaines the concepts of WC really well in reguards to dealing with wrestlers, or whatever.
> 
> part 1 of 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> part 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is some of the stuff I'm starting to really learn now. Believe it or not (don't care) it works, and is as effective as it is weird.


 
I have a question.  In the first clip, when he was doing the headlock defense, he was still in an upright position vs. being bent over, the way a true headlock would be applied.  So, was his intention to show what he could do while standing, with the attack not fully applied?  Would this same move work had the attack been applied fully, and being bent over?


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## MJS

Si-Je said:


> I am aware of the flow from one technique to the other in ju-jitsu. And as a master, you can do whatever you like because you've mastered what you know.
> Plus, WC has plenty of joint locks, and throws/takedowns of it's own. No one art monopolizes a type of technique. (although I've never seen anything like chain punching in any other art before. Kempo does have a great continious flow of hand attacks that could be similar in concept) Their are many variants of the same if not similar techniques in many different arts.
> 
> cross-training can seriously confuse the student especially in wing chun.
> I've see this many times with our students, other people's students in WC and it usually is more detremental when the student is just starting WC. After more of a full understanding of the art is achieved cross-training is more doable.
> But...
> We had a two year student that decided to cross-train BJJ. He left us for 8 months and came back to spar my hubbie on the mats. He didn't tell us he went off to train BJJ, he wanted to keep it as a surprise to test out the WT anti-grappling.
> It was a very entertaining sparring match, but our student was unable to lock out on Hubbie, much less complete most of the techniques he tried. So, no, I didn't get to see much of BJJ in action, it looked pretty ineffective and incomplete to me, because I didn't know what techniques he was trying to do, nor did I get to see any of them completed.
> 
> Moral: this frustrated our student to no end, he'd paid a ton of money to cross-train, and wasted valuble time in WC/WT training. He felt embarressed when he confessed to us that he'd left to cross-train because he knew we didn't think it was a good idea. We don't get upset about cross-training, or forbid it, it just usually causes the student more trouble than it was worth.
> That's when we started teaching the anti-grappling earlier in classes to keep the students well rounded in their self defense at an earlier stage.
> 
> In reguards with defending against a grappler. Chainpunching, kicking, kneeing as they shoot in, I've found to be very effective. Destroy the head, for the body follows the head every time reguardless what art you take, simple phisiology.
> 
> "Attack is defense, defense is attack, each is the cause and result of the other." - Lau Tzu
> 
> If they pick you up off your feet to slam you down, keep the neck locked and let them throw you. (I've done this in Ju-Jitsu as well as in WC/WT) The give you the head, then keep that gift! This will take most of the power out of their throw, keep your back from getting slammed flat and losing your breath, keep control of the opponent while being thrown. When on the ground, either use the neck/head to get up with, or let go and start using chi sau sensitivity on your back, chainpunching, leg sensitivity and leverage the oppoent's weight off your body, and re-direct and deflect their energy as you would standing.
> roll, corkscrew, and pivot your way out of the hold/position of your attacker and come up "swingin" (i.e. kneeing, kicking, and chainpunching) letting your attackers inertia and body to help you up as you attack.
> Don't let them up, don't let them get collected, set, or escape. Punch until their done.
> 
> for defense against a clinch standing up against a wall or "cage", use chum kui form (when on arm is on top of the other and you pivot from side to side for example) and use the same technique/concept against the "clinch". This will change their body position and balance freeing you for immediate attack to keep them from re-grouping and flowing to another attack or strategy. (I just learned this one from Hubbie, it was sooo cool! And surprisingly effortless in nature against a really aggressive and strong clinch)
> 
> Again, good rooting in stance will give the foundation for further action, whatever it needs to be. Pivoting when the opponent's force is too great will unbalance their attack and allow you to respond with your own attack. A good old fashioned kick, or knee to the face as they shoot in is often effective even if you don't get a tooth knocked out or a TKO, it still disturbs the direction of their inertia and body position severely.
> Or just chainpunching or chainpalm striking the back of the head/neck if they are so inclined to shoot in to your legs low enough to expose to you.
> These can all be executed in combination, simultaneously with one another, in different succession depending on the need of the situation.
> Sensitivity, flow, response, and relaxation are key, as well as not anticipating the opponent's next move.
> 
> Hense, why I don't wish to cross-train in grappling arts. This would encourage me to anticipate their next move, try to read them to guess what technique they might try next, and teach me to work within the restraints of their art.
> One needs to adapt, react to what is given, stay relaxed, and feel the energy of the opponent to respond correctly to their attack.


 
Thanks for taking the time to explain things.  Hey, crosstraining may not be for everyone.  IMO, I think there is alot of value in it, so on that aspect, we'll have to agree to disagree. 

Out of curiosity, what is your husbands grappling background?  Has he done any ground work or does he strictly stick with WC antigrappling?


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## mook jong man

I am from that school and it is drilled into us from day one to maintain structure by having a straight back , your body can be pulled forward or back or from the side but your neck and spine will stay in alignment .

 From what i have seen of the man you would be very hard pressed to make him bend over , even if you did manage it he would just do a different application from the Bil Gee form .


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## seasoned

mook jong man said:


> I am from that school and it is drilled into us from day one to maintain structure by having a straight back , your body can be pulled forward or back or from the side but your neck and spine will stay in alignment .
> 
> From what i have seen of the man you would be very hard pressed to make him bend over , even if you did manage it he would just do a different application from the Bil Gee form .


 
I like your point. Structure, as we all know, is always maintained on our part, as we try to disrupt it on the part of out aggressor. Si-Fu showed some links of a person using techniques that looked weak, but in reality I saw him disrupting the structure of his volunteer. Once any attack is aloud to proceed past that window of opportunity, where we can easily disrupt his movement then it is harder to defend against . Case in point, in the video as the head lock was being applied, the attackers structure, from my observation , was immediately broken before the lock or strike could be applied. As the arm comes around the neck, both persons are up right, and at this time you need to disrupt, unbalance that person so as to stop their technique. Some schools of thought are to learn how to get out of holds, and other schools of thought are to react in the first stages of their movement. I know as a beginner, we learned to block a front kick. But as a higher belt we learned to stop the foot as it leaves the floor. But as an advanced student we observed a weight change in our opponent, and reacted to his technique before it even starts. At the master level a person can see your intentions before you think them. Mystical, no,. With this advanced stage of training, you are no faster then you were in the beginner level, but what you have gained with years of training is a sensing, and feeling ability that far exceeds any speed you can ever work at. One analogy, then I will rest my point. When you first learn to drive a car, a ball bounces out into the road. At the permit level, mind and foot are not one, and the ball gets run over. Stage two after many years of driving you perceive movement up ahead, see kids playing ball, and if it happens to end up in the road, you are able to react early on. My finishing statement is, you learn so you can forget. The learning needs to be complete, so you own it. The forgetting, must also be complete, so the mind is open and free to react. Thought to ponder.


----------



## MJS

mook jong man said:


> I am from that school and it is drilled into us from day one to maintain structure by having a straight back , your body can be pulled forward or back or from the side but your neck and spine will stay in alignment .
> 
> From what i have seen of the man you would be very hard pressed to make him bend over , even if you did manage it he would just do a different application from the Bil Gee form .


 


seasoned said:


> I like your point. Structure, as we all know, is always maintained on our part, as we try to disrupt it on the part of out aggressor. Si-Fu showed some links of a person using techniques that looked weak, but in reality I saw him disrupting the structure of his volunteer. Once any attack is aloud to proceed past that window of opportunity, where we can easily disrupt his movement then it is harder to defend against . Case in point, in the video as the head lock was being applied, the attackers structure, from my observation , was immediately broken before the lock or strike could be applied. As the arm comes around the neck, both persons are up right, and at this time you need to disrupt, unbalance that person so as to stop their technique. Some schools of thought are to learn how to get out of holds, and other schools of thought are to react in the first stages of their movement. I know as a beginner, we learned to block a front kick. But as a higher belt we learned to stop the foot as it leaves the floor. But as an advanced student we observed a weight change in our opponent, and reacted to his technique before it even starts. At the master level a person can see your intentions before you think them. Mystical, no,. With this advanced stage of training, you are no faster then you were in the beginner level, but what you have gained with years of training is a sensing, and feeling ability that far exceeds any speed you can ever work at. One analogy, then I will rest my point. When you first learn to drive a car, a ball bounces out into the road. At the permit level, mind and foot are not one, and the ball gets run over. Stage two after many years of driving you perceive movement up ahead, see kids playing ball, and if it happens to end up in the road, you are able to react early on. My finishing statement is, you learn so you can forget. The learning needs to be complete, so you own it. The forgetting, must also be complete, so the mind is open and free to react. Thought to ponder.


 
Thank you both for your replies.   Seasoned, after reading your reply, this sounds like what I would call pre-empting the attack, with a strike/defense of your own.  If we saw someone cock their hand back for the haymaker type punch, its pretty much a no brainer to know whats coming next.  

Now hopefully you can answer my next question.  Of course, if someone was reaching towards us, one would expect that we'd begin our defense then, not waiting.  ex: someone starts reaching towards us to grab our lapel.  At that point, we could defend even though the grab has not happened.  Now, in the case of the video clip with the headlock, had this been fully applied, what would his response have been?  At that point, obviously his structure isn't as stable as if he were standing.  In my art, Kenpo, we have defenses in the event that the attack is actually completed.  Harder to defend?  Sure, however, there are still ways to cancel out certain actions of our opponent.

Looking forward to your reply. 

Mike


----------



## mook jong man

MJS said:


> Thank you both for your replies.  Seasoned, after reading your reply, this sounds like what I would call pre-empting the attack, with a strike/defense of your own. If we saw someone cock their hand back for the haymaker type punch, its pretty much a no brainer to know whats coming next.
> 
> Now hopefully you can answer my next question. Of course, if someone was reaching towards us, one would expect that we'd begin our defense then, not waiting. ex: someone starts reaching towards us to grab our lapel. At that point, we could defend even though the grab has not happened. Now, in the case of the video clip with the headlock, had this been fully applied, what would his response have been? At that point, obviously his structure isn't as stable as if he were standing. In my art, Kenpo, we have defenses in the event that the attack is actually completed. Harder to defend? Sure, however, there are still ways to cancel out certain actions of our opponent.
> 
> Looking forward to your reply.
> 
> Mike


 
MJS the man in the clip has been training for about 22 years I think and he is at a very high level not all Wing Chun guys could do what he is doing . You must understand that learning the Bil Gee form is many years down the track for most Wing Chun people . 

From memory I think the Bil Gee application when bent over in a head lock is to put your out stretched arm in front of the opponents neck and force their head back as you straighten your back and stand up . 

Obviously this takes a high level of skill against a strong attacker , so most people in the junior grades are taught to strike to the groin as soon as they feel they are being pulled down into a headlock .

I can't say this is true for all Wing Chun schools because they are all different but this is what we did at our school when I was there about 8 years ago .

 But it could be a bit different now because some of the chief instructors have achieved high rank in BJJ and I think they teach a fair bit of ground fighting there now but with a more self defence orientated slant .


----------



## MJS

mook jong man said:


> MJS the man in the clip has been training for about 22 years I think and he is at a very high level not all Wing Chun guys could do what he is doing . You must understand that learning the Bil Gee form is many years down the track for most Wing Chun people .
> 
> From memory I think the Bil Gee application when bent over in a head lock is to put your out stretched arm in front of the opponents neck and force their head back as you straighten your back and stand up .
> 
> Obviously this takes a high level of skill against a strong attacker , so most people in the junior grades are taught to strike to the groin as soon as they feel they are being pulled down into a headlock .
> 
> I can't say this is true for all Wing Chun schools because they are all different but this is what we did at our school when I was there about 8 years ago .
> 
> But it could be a bit different now because some of the chief instructors have achieved high rank in BJJ and I think they teach a fair bit of ground fighting there now but with a more self defence orientated slant .


 
Thanks for your reply. :ultracool  I'm not familiar with the form you mention, however, the concept of using the arm is familiar.  We check the opponents leg with ours, while doing 2 hammerfist strikes, one to the groin and one to the kidney area.  Our rear hand can then reach up behind and grab whatever is available, ie: hair, eyes, nose, chin, pulling their head back, allowing us to continue the defense.


----------



## Si-Je

Bui Gee form video with Mrs. Wagner.  She's awesome!  Commercial for Nike.





 
This is the advanced stuff.  I've barely just started learn some of this.  Not even the whole form yet.  And the Chi your learning the whole time your training WC, but alot of the time you don't know it.


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## Si-Je

MJS said:


> Out of curiosity, what is your husbands grappling background? Has he done any ground work or does he strictly stick with WC antigrappling?


 

Just Judo, and Recon training stuff. He dislikes grappling, and BJJ very much.  To the point it makes him mad sometimes.  
When I first started training and I told him I did Ju-Jitsu, he thought it was BJJ and well, he's almost predjuced against it.  It took me over a year to be able to show him the blaringly apparent differences in the two arts!

I'm not as against grappling and BJJ as he, but I'm not into it or a fan of it.
I think his distaste for it comes from the knowledge that Army guys in Iraq have been using it, and coming back with broken legs, hips, backs and such due to the fact their trying to use it on concrete, stairs, hallways, and other such urban warfare environments, with full battle gear on, a 100lb. pack, riffle, and all the other gear getting in the way.
But that's fodder for another thread.  Just explaining why he hates it so much.

Oh, a little tip on arm bars and such:  manipulate the wrist as well, twisting up the arm, and you'll have more control over a stronger attacker.  Plus, you'll break the wrist, elbow, and dislocate the shoulder with the same twisting and "barring" motion.  And it's much harder to get out of for your opponent.  Usually, they break their own arm.  

P.S. sorry for the multiple posts.  I don't know how to quote multiple people in one post response.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Just Judo, and Recon training stuff. He dislikes grappling, and BJJ very much. To the point it makes him mad sometimes.
> When I first started training and I told him I did Ju-Jitsu, he thought it was BJJ and well, he's almost predjuced against it. It took me over a year to be able to show him the blaringly apparent differences in the two arts!
> 
> I'm not as against grappling and BJJ as he, but I'm not into it or a fan of it.
> I think his distaste for it comes from the knowledge that Army guys in Iraq have been using it, and coming back with broken legs, hips, backs and such due to the fact their trying to use it on concrete, stairs, hallways, and other such urban warfare environments, with full battle gear on, a 100lb. pack, riffle, and all the other gear getting in the way.
> But that's fodder for another thread. Just explaining why he hates it so much.
> 
> Oh, a little tip on arm bars and such: manipulate the wrist as well, twisting up the arm, and you'll have more control over a stronger attacker. Plus, you'll break the wrist, elbow, and dislocate the shoulder with the same twisting and "barring" motion. And it's much harder to get out of for your opponent. Usually, they break their own arm.


 
Thanks for getting back to me.   Interestingly enough, I've heard many people defend the use of MMA/BJJ because the Military uses it.  My usual reply is how or why would someone want to roll or try to roll wearing all that stuff??  I never get an answer. LOL.  



> P.S. sorry for the multiple posts. I don't know how to quote multiple people in one post response.


 
No problem.  If you look at the bottom of each post, you should see buttons that say Thanks and Quote.  Right next to the quote button is the multi quote feature.  So, if I wanted to quote you and mook jong man, I'd click the multi quote button on each of your posts, then click the post reply button.  Both posts should appear.  I hope that helps. 

Mike


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## Si-Je

Marines learn something totally different.  And Force Recon is a totally different training program than the regular marines.

But special forces in all branches learn more than the regular enlisted guys.

But, for civilians wanting to learn what SF guys learn is really impractical for the civiy lifestyle.  Their techniques are augmented to the needs of special forces, i.e. quick kill, working with the gear carried, firearms usagae, working with a team and such.  We're just not going to have much use in daily life for that kind of training. 
We have a situation where largely in a self-defense senario you'll be all alone against an attacker, or multiple attackers, unarmed (most likely), and the use of extreme force would hold harsh legal issues.  (Unless your in Texas! lol!)

But either way, the need to stay off the ground for extended periods of time is equally critical.


----------



## jarrod

Yoshiyahu said:


> Oh let me clarify my Statement. What I mean about how do you defeat a Wrestler is from standing up. With out being taking to the ground. So from striking standing Joint locks and standing throws and takedowns. How do you defeat a Ground fighter who trying to wrestle you an take you down to ground?


 
ah, i misunderstood your origional post then.  you've already received some good tips on this from other posters.  all the best, if i were any closer to st. lou i would look you up.  if you're ever in the KC area look me up, it would be fun to train & work with a good WC guy.



MJS said:


> Thanks for getting back to me.  Interestingly enough, I've heard many people defend the use of MMA/BJJ because the Military uses it. My usual reply is how or why would someone want to roll or try to roll wearing all that stuff?? I never get an answer. LOL.
> 
> Mike


 
this is a good example of what's good for the goose not being so good for the gander, so to speak.  too often people confuse fighting, combat, & self-defense.  they are all very different levels of conflict & the same tactics can't be used in them universally.  

sambo is a very good example of a grappling style that adapts well to military usage.  sure it has it's sport-fighting element, but that it not the whole of the art.  for instance, in judo you win the match if you throw your opponent flat on his back.  in sambo, a throw only wins the match if you throw your opponent on his back _& stay on your feet_.  the idea is that from there you are stomping his head in with your combat boots.  

so i think that's it's a good idea for the army to train mma/bjj since it has a fairly short learning curve, but i would like to see it augmented with more combat oriented skills later.  as you mentioned, rolling with an 80lbs+ pack is not really practical.  

jf


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> I never saw a Gracie fight a Japanese Ju-Jitsu fighter.  Or a Wing Chun fighter.



Royce fought Kazyushi Sakuraba a few times, Rickson made a living fighting them, and Helio started to whole thing fighting Kimura....who later became the name of a shoulder lock that Kimura used to break Helio Gracie's.  Many of the Gracies fought in Japanese promotions in protest to the UFC's rule changes back in 2000, which is why you likely haven't seen them.

Technically speaking, BJJ and JJJ are the same techniques.  BJJ focuses on a different technique application and has more of a focus on chokes, elbows, knees, and shoulders.  JJJ seems to favor wrist locks and the standing grappling game(not to say they don't have a ground game).  Wristlocks are virtually useless in sport with heavily taped hands and wrists....although there is a Japanese fighter/JJJ named Shinya Aoki.  If you get the chance, he is something to watch if you enjoy JJJ.


----------



## jarrod

dungeonworks said:


> Royce fought Kazyushi Sakuraba a few times, Rickson made a living fighting them, and Helio started to whole thing fighting Kimura....who later became the name of a shoulder lock that Kimura used to break Helio Gracie's. Many of the Gracies fought in Japanese promotions in protest to the UFC's rule changes back in 2000, which is why you likely haven't seen them.
> 
> Technically speaking, BJJ and JJJ are the same techniques. BJJ focuses on a different technique application and has more of a focus on chokes, elbows, knees, and shoulders. JJJ seems to favor wrist locks and the standing grappling game(not to say they don't have a ground game). Wristlocks are virtually useless in sport with heavily taped hands and wrists....although there is a Japanese fighter/JJJ named Shinya Aoki. If you get the chance, he is something to watch if you enjoy JJJ.


 
for the record though, sakuraba is primarily a catch wrestler.  he trained under billy robinson.  i believe aoki has a background in catch as well, but i could be mistaken.  

i agree with you for the most part in your analysis of bjj/jjj though.  i have studied two different japanese/american hybrid styles, & the two major differences i've noticed are the emphasis on the guard in bjj, & the length of time it takes to promote.  a good jjj school should place the same emphasis on leverage & technique as a bjj school however.  strength & conditioning should assist in any competitive martial art, but shouldn't be a substitute for technique.

jf


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> The technique when kicking in the knee is different in WC than in kickboxing.
> the elbow technique is different in WC than in kickboxing.
> You can't look at a strike from another art, and judge that just because a guy can "take it" from a kickboxer or other that they'll have the same reaction to technique from a completely different art.
> 
> I've heel kicked large, tough, and heavily muscled men in the knee and their knee collapses just fine.  (I don't kick full force of course but in training full force isn't needed, their body position is still changed like I want it to)
> You use a kickboxing/mui tai kick, kicking shin to shin or whatever is completly different energy than a WC hook kick or heel kick which will bring an opponent down/collapse the knee whether or not you break it.  (which is more highly likely especially if their big and strong)



How is the energy different in Wing Chun and kickboxing???  Aside the round kicks, many are still linear like in Wing Chun.  I like the directness and non telegraphic nature of the Wing Chun kicks, but they are nowheres near as powerfull as they are from a conditioned an well trained kickboxer as I have exerienced on my own body.  Same with knees and elbows.

Tae Kwon Do has vuirtually the same thing as the front kick of Wing Chun as did Koeikan and I believe Muay Thai.  I've seen many a knees get kicked in person and in MMA fights.  It is not as dramatic of a technique as many believe.  It is if you hit it at the correct angle with their weight on it (as taught in Wing Chun), but even then (see the recent Brandon Vera vs Kieth Jardine...Vera landed THE Wing Chun front kick!).


----------



## Si-Je

I strongly disagree that BJJ and JJJ use the same techniques.  Not Aiki or Goshin Ju-Jitsu (which is even more americanized form of JJJ).

We used alot of "tate dori" standing escapes, i.e. standing chokes, joint locks, throws (where you are still standing always) pressure points, and kicks and strikes.
BJJ does not do these techniques at all.

When we throw an attacker to the ground at the most you go down with them to one knee (two only if one is on their neck and the other on their kidney/rib) You generally keep the arm of the attacker you threw them with and then proceed to break it as soon as they hit the ground.  These technques were used much like wringing out a wet rag, the "rag" being the opponent's arm.  You twist the wrist, which the elbow in turn gets "twisted" as you apply pressure against the elbow at the same time, ringing out the arm until the shoulder pops out of socket.
From here you can stop at their threshold of pain an risk further fighting by "submitting" them.  But we didn't train to submit, we trained to break every joint we got ahold of as fast as possible.
In class we were controlled, of course.  But, practiceing Kotogashi (wrist throw) you had to jump over your own arm (like the stunt men do in Steven Segal movies) to save the wrist from breaking.  Later you learn counters without the jump, but you still practice with your uke (partner) by jumping over your arm so they can finish the breaking motion of the wrist throw/break.
Just an example of major difference.

Another ex.  the BJJ armbar on the ground, where you put both your legs over the guys chest with their arm between your legs to "break" the elbow over your own pelvis.  (I hate that technique!  so macho.  so difficult strength expended wise, and takes soo much time!)

equivilant JJJ armbar on the ground:  
Opponent is on their side/ribs laying on the ground. (usually after being thrown judo style.  if you do a shoulder throw and keep hold of their arm when they land you will achieve this position)  You drop straight to your knees landing one knee on his rib and the other on the side of his neck.  You still have the arm tucked under your armpit from throw.  (most times they help you by grabbing you with that arm.  Good, makes certian you still have arm.)  You brace your forearm thats wrapping their arm against the back of their elbow.  That same hand/arm of yours grabbs your other bicep.  Your free hard extends toward the opponent either with the palm braced against their side or just covering your centerline.
They only have one way to roll over, (away from you, your knees, legs, and feet keep them from rolling over on their back.  you never want your opponent on their back.  They can still defend.)  and that will break their own arm.
Release the arm wrap (or if they wiggle free) to manipulate the wrist and elbow in a figure 4 position for bigger dudes.  Big tip though:  pull wrist up toward you as you push the elbow down towards them.  This WILL absolutely destroy the arm in one motion, breaking the wrist, elbow, and dislocating the shoulder.
BJJ doesn't do anything like this.  Not that I've EVER seen or heard of.


----------



## Si-Je

dungeonworks said:


> Tae Kwon Do has vuirtually the same thing as the front kick of Wing Chun as did Koeikan and I believe Muay Thai. I've seen many a knees get kicked in person and in MMA fights. It is not as dramatic of a technique as many believe. It is if you hit it at the correct angle with their weight on it (as taught in Wing Chun), but even then (see the recent Brandon Vera vs Kieth Jardine...Vera landed THE Wing Chun front kick!).


 
no sweetie. not the same.  tae kuan do front snap kick hits with the ball of the foot, or in some systems flat of the bottom of the foot.  (but not many)

WC heel kick is, true to it's name, kicking the attacker with the heel of the foot.  Toes pointed to the celing, and cocked to the outside of the body, while the heel goes straight down the centerline.  Plus, no knee snapping motion like tae kwon do.

These guys that have gone in UFC claiming to be WC/WT are not.  I don't know what on Earth kind of style their trying to use in there, but what I've seen is, well nothing.  Heard about a guy that recently fought that was supposed to be real WC/WT, but can't remember his name, and when I did rememeber I couldn't find a video on the fight.  poop!


----------



## jarrod

Si-Je said:


> I strongly disagree that BJJ and JJJ use the same techniques. Not Aiki or Goshin Ju-Jitsu (which is even more americanized form of JJJ).
> 
> We used alot of "tate dori" standing escapes, i.e. standing chokes, joint locks, throws (where you are still standing always) pressure points, and kicks and strikes.
> BJJ does not do these techniques at all.


 
this is not correct.  most bjj schools emphasize the sport or mma aspects of the art, but all the techniques you described are included in the art.  i believe rorian's lineage still emphasizes these techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN8Y0jfVDqI&feature=related



Si-Je said:


> Another ex. the BJJ armbar on the ground, where you put both your legs over the guys chest with their arm between your legs to "break" the elbow over your own pelvis. (I hate that technique! so macho. so difficult strength expended wise, and takes soo much time!)


 
this is not the correct way to do juji-gatame/the armbar.  your knees should be squeezed together to prevent the elbow from going to your groin/pelvis.  your heels should be squeezing towards your butt in order to squeeze your opponent's shoulders together, thereby minimizing his strength.  his arm should be close to your chest, so that you are using the muscles in your back rather than just your arms.  so done correctly, you are using the muscles of your legs, back, & arms against their solitary arm.  i've used this technique repeatedly on guys literally 100lbs larger than me, & i'm not particularly strong for my size.  



Si-Je said:


> equivilant JJJ armbar on the ground:
> Opponent is on their side/ribs laying on the ground. (usually after being thrown judo style. if you do a shoulder throw and keep hold of their arm when they land you will achieve this position) You drop straight to your knees landing one knee on his rib and the other on the side of his neck. You still have the arm tucked under your armpit from throw. (most times they help you by grabbing you with that arm. Good, makes certian you still have arm.) You brace your forearm thats wrapping their arm against the back of their elbow. That same hand/arm of yours grabbs your other bicep. Your free hard extends toward the opponent either with the palm braced against their side or just covering your centerline.
> They only have one way to roll over, (away from you, your knees, legs, and feet keep them from rolling over on their back. you never want your opponent on their back. They can still defend.) and that will break their own arm.
> Release the arm wrap (or if they wiggle free) to manipulate the wrist and elbow in a figure 4 position for bigger dudes. Big tip though: pull wrist up toward you as you push the elbow down towards them. This WILL absolutely destroy the arm in one motion, breaking the wrist, elbow, and dislocating the shoulder.
> BJJ doesn't do anything like this. Not that I've EVER seen or heard of.


 
these techniques exist in bjj, largely because bjj is descended directly from jjj.  

jf


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> no sweetie. not the same.  tae kuan do front snap kick hits with the ball of the foot, or in some systems flat of the bottom of the foot.  (but not many)
> 
> WC heel kick is, true to it's name, kicking the attacker with the heel of the foot.  Toes pointed to the celing, and cocked to the outside of the body, while the heel goes straight down the centerline.  Plus, no knee snapping motion like tae kwon do.
> 
> These guys that have gone in UFC claiming to be WC/WT are not.  I don't know what on Earth kind of style their trying to use in there, but what I've seen is, well nothing.  Heard about a guy that recently fought that was supposed to be real WC/WT, but can't remember his name, and when I did rememeber I couldn't find a video on the fight.  poop!



I know of Alan Orr and Aaron Baum.  They are English I believe.  They also train BJJ for their MMA endeavors.  On a side note, before he died, Carlson Gracie Jr. was training Wing Chun with Sam Kwok or Sam Chan...can't remember.  I believe Rickson does too now, but cannot confirm.

The kick from TKD is not called a heel kick...I forget because TKD was half a lifetime ago for me....but Koeikan is not, and has the same linear kick using the same part of the foot, the heel.  We also used it similar to a back kick as well.


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> I strongly disagree that BJJ and JJJ use the same techniques.  Not Aiki or Goshin Ju-Jitsu (which is even more americanized form of JJJ).
> 
> We used alot of "tate dori" standing escapes, i.e. standing chokes, joint locks, throws (where you are still standing always) pressure points, and kicks and strikes.
> BJJ does not do these techniques at all.
> 
> When we throw an attacker to the ground at the most you go down with them to one knee (two only if one is on their neck and the other on their kidney/rib) You generally keep the arm of the attacker you threw them with and then proceed to break it as soon as they hit the ground.  These technques were used much like wringing out a wet rag, the "rag" being the opponent's arm.  You twist the wrist, which the elbow in turn gets "twisted" as you apply pressure against the elbow at the same time, ringing out the arm until the shoulder pops out of socket.
> From here you can stop at their threshold of pain an risk further fighting by "submitting" them.  But we didn't train to submit, we trained to break every joint we got ahold of as fast as possible.
> In class we were controlled, of course.  But, practiceing Kotogashi (wrist throw) you had to jump over your own arm (like the stunt men do in Steven Segal movies) to save the wrist from breaking.  Later you learn counters without the jump, but you still practice with your uke (partner) by jumping over your arm so they can finish the breaking motion of the wrist throw/break.
> Just an example of major difference.
> 
> Another ex.  the BJJ armbar on the ground, where you put both your legs over the guys chest with their arm between your legs to "break" the elbow over your own pelvis.  (I hate that technique!  so macho.  so difficult strength expended wise, and takes soo much time!)
> 
> equivilant JJJ armbar on the ground:
> Opponent is on their side/ribs laying on the ground. (usually after being thrown judo style.  if you do a shoulder throw and keep hold of their arm when they land you will achieve this position)  You drop straight to your knees landing one knee on his rib and the other on the side of his neck.  You still have the arm tucked under your armpit from throw.  (most times they help you by grabbing you with that arm.  Good, makes certian you still have arm.)  You brace your forearm thats wrapping their arm against the back of their elbow.  That same hand/arm of yours grabbs your other bicep.  Your free hard extends toward the opponent either with the palm braced against their side or just covering your centerline.
> They only have one way to roll over, (away from you, your knees, legs, and feet keep them from rolling over on their back.  you never want your opponent on their back.  They can still defend.)  and that will break their own arm.
> Release the arm wrap (or if they wiggle free) to manipulate the wrist and elbow in a figure 4 position for bigger dudes.  Big tip though:  pull wrist up toward you as you push the elbow down towards them.  This WILL absolutely destroy the arm in one motion, breaking the wrist, elbow, and dislocating the shoulder.
> BJJ doesn't do anything like this.  Not that I've EVER seen or heard of.



The mechanics are the same, the focus of the application and strategy are different.  I should have noted I was speaking of the armbar you mentionedRemember, BJJ is the son of JJJ.  Gracie simplified and modified it much as Jigoro Kano did with JJJ.  Some would argue that it is Judo, but that is about as fruitful an argument as the Yim Wing Chun story.  I guess if we want to get really technical, the Greeks and/or Indians (Asian) invented it all LOL.

Edit:  forgot this link http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/history.shtml


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## jarrod

dungeonworks said:


> The mechanics are the same, the focus of the application and strategy are different. I should have noted I was speaking of the armbar you mentionedRemember, BJJ is the son of JJJ. Gracie simplified and modified it much as Jigoro Kano did with JJJ. Some would argue that it is Judo, but that is about as fruitful an argument as the Yim Wing Chun story. I guess if we want to get really technical, the Greeks and/or Indians (Asian) invented it all LOL.
> 
> Edit: forgot this link http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/history.shtml


 
not so!  i strongly dispute the claim that all asian martial arts spread from greece.  that may be a topic for another thread though  

jf


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## dungeonworks

I was meaning grappling, not all martial arts.


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## jarrod

i think that it is especially untrue of grappling arts.  grappling is a fairly universal aspect of physical culture; all you need are two bodies & a semi-soft place to land.

jf


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## dungeonworks

...and a pair of them tight skivies! LOL


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## Si-Je

Darlin's!
That video of BJJ standing defenses falls far short of what is taught.  Did they just like go to a seminar and add technique to wrestling?  I don't mean to be an a**, or too disrespectful, but when BJJ is compared to Goshin in anyway what-so-ever, it gets under my skin.
And here is why.

This is Goshin Ju-Jitsu throws 
Beginner to internediate levels:





application of kotogashi off a jab cross punches
and application of ashi nage (foot throw)





ahhhh, memories! The joys of being a limber female uke (the one getting thrown)
you flip to save the joints so your tori (doing the techniques) can finish the full technique
as it would be used in real life.  Sensi's love us!  We make them look really good! lol!
p.s. this is similar to how I cracked the vertebre in my neck, (Sensi didnt' do it, a fellow brownbelt did stressing that I was about to surpass him in rank) a little gift from Ju-jitsu that I shall cherish always, and effectively keep me out of the ring FOREVER.





makes me hurt to watch it. pressure points and take downs
they blurred out a kill move to the front of the throat in the middle here.
And a wee bit of weapons defense techniques.





really basic tate dori self defense (standing escapes and "takedowns")
This training is why I have a hard time following up with wing chun takedowns so much.
I was trained to back off the opponent when he was down.





Well, that's all I could find on youtube that was similar to what I took in Texas.
My old system substuted the Japanes/kempo striking with really WEAK Wing Chun (but still effective against most other stuff) couldn't find anything on my of federation guys. 
Founder took Aiki Ju-jitsu from some guy in Oklahoma, the WC from a guy in Fort Worth, and aparently the Goshin stuff from wherever too. And just mixed them all in his own style. But he's still one of the best martial artists I've ever come across. Dude knew so many arts (most mastered) that he couldn't hardly keep them apart from the other. But all in all, it's one
of the best arts I've ever taken. And much love out to the founder, he's a cool, and pretty good guy!

Aibu-Jitsu-Ryu is another of his federations


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## jarrod

proof that it didn't originate in greece!  they did it NEKKID!!!

:lol2:


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## jarrod

& sweetheart, it gets under my skin when people who know very little about jujitsu tell me what jujitsu is or isn't.  especially when evidence of what jujitsu is is presented, then written off.  

you seem to have a strong prejudice against grappling.  that's fine, it's not for everyone.  but i don't think you quite grasp the core principles of jujitsu, brazilian or otherwise, anymore than i have a deep understanding of wing chun.  

jf


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## Si-Je

Did you even Watch the videos?!
You can talk to anyone in my old federation and they'll tell you exactly how much I know of the art, dear.

Anyways, training in Wing Chun has evolved my "ju-Jitsu" techniques to a totally different level.  Now, the joint locks are done with one hand, groovy stuff.

And I really don't see a point in getting into a huff and puff match with you online.  I've paid my dues in Goshin three fold, as student, demo uke, and Sempi for over three years.  I trained in DFW and with the founder in West Texas.  Shodai had two federations, and I was lucky to train in both.

BJJ is Brazillian, don't try to link it to some Japanese roots man.  It may have a couple of techniques from some Japanes stylist, but whatever.
Goshin's much, much different, and it's blatently apparent in the video's I posted.
Peace out!


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## jarrod

honestly no, i'm doing some CPU maintanence right now & it would take forever to load those vids. i will look at them later, though. but my point was that you said bjj did not include standing techs, & it does. you described why an armbar requires lots of strength, & i explained how, if done correctly, it does not. 

you may have knowledge of one style of jujitsu, but that is just one branch on the tree. as for bjj not having japanese roots...it is descended from judo, which is descended from jujitsu. i really don't see how you can argue that bjj doesn't have japanese roots. why do they call their uniforms kimonos? why is it call "jiujitsu"? i don't think that's portugese. if bjj were brazilian, they wouldn't even wear gis, they's wear those bananna hammocks that they wear to the beach. 

anyway, i don't intend for this to escalate. perhaps we can return to this thread tomorrow with cooler heads.

jf


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## Yoshiyahu

Excellent Post GBlues. People like you keep this tread alive Thankyou for your experience and knowledge. Keep it up?




GBlues said:


> Don't let him grab you. Move around alot! IF you've got room. ANother thing too, if he shoots, you can step back into a wide horse stance for stability. Sink your knees as you drop your elbow into the guys clavicle area. My father did that to me when my wrestling buddies in highschool were showing me things. Stopped me dead in my tracks. Dropped straight to my knees. From there you can keep slamming elbows into that region while mixing it up with elbows to the side of the face or even a good shot to the temple. Be wary about striking with elbows to the temple region, or even to the base of the neck where the spine meets the head. This can cause serious injury, and even death. This is a life or death deal, not trying to stop your buddy that's into grappling when your sparring. After you have stopped him from the shoot with the elbow you may be able to push him off of you and get away. Another effective way is when he shoots throw your legs out behind you like your going to lay belly down on his back. Keeps your legs further away, and frees your arms up again for elbow, strikes, and punches. For me it's a rather difficult move and is just really putting off the inevitable fact that now your grappling. YOu can also when you throw your legs out behind you snake your arm, ( either one) around his throat performing ( I believe correct me if I'm wrong), a guillotine choke. He'll either A: Try to gain control of your legs, B: Break the choke, or C: try to get out of it by standing up. HOld on! Throw your legs further out, putting more of your weight on his back, you have leverage on your side now. DOn't let go, till he taps, (sparring), or is unconscious,(self-defense). Those are ones that I usually try to work with depending on the situation and have used them all, to varying degrees of success. I hope that was helpful. Generally this last one ususally for me anyways only works against somebody that thinks they can wrestle or grapple but doesn't really have a clue. Cause really there are lots of ways to get out of those for grapplers and wrestlers. I have some knowledge of grappling but there are others here that most assuredly could and would make mince meat out of me on the ground. Again I hope this was helpful.


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## Si-Je

Hubbies a black belt Judo, and assure that BJJ is NOT decended from Judo.  He never heard of BJJ in the 70's-80's when he was involved in Judo.
I became aware of BJJ through the UFC fights when they started in the 90's, that's when I took JJJ.  Never heard a peep about it until Gracie came bounding in the ring.

News to us.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Thank you for the invite. i am still looking for skilled people who I can spar with and train with from other styles including BJJ who are alot better than me so My Wing Chun can grow. I been getting soft over the years. I haven't had any challenges in while. Except for Chi Sao and sparring with people at Tai Chi class and at my house. I need to interact with more skilled people so I can grow. Atleast people of other styles.

I wish you were in STL too. Getting taking to ground and learning how to escape from your skilled submission locks or pins would do me alot of good.



jarrod said:


> ah, i misunderstood your origional post then. you've already received some good tips on this from other posters. all the best, if i were any closer to st. lou i would look you up. if you're ever in the KC area look me up, it would be fun to train & work with a good WC guy.
> 
> 
> 
> this is a good example of what's good for the goose not being so good for the gander, so to speak. too often people confuse fighting, combat, & self-defense. they are all very different levels of conflict & the same tactics can't be used in them universally.
> 
> sambo is a very good example of a grappling style that adapts well to military usage. sure it has it's sport-fighting element, but that it not the whole of the art. for instance, in judo you win the match if you throw your opponent flat on his back. in sambo, a throw only wins the match if you throw your opponent on his back _& stay on your feet_. the idea is that from there you are stomping his head in with your combat boots.
> 
> so i think that's it's a good idea for the army to train mma/bjj since it has a fairly short learning curve, but i would like to see it augmented with more combat oriented skills later. as you mentioned, rolling with an 80lbs+ pack is not really practical.
> 
> jf


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## Yoshiyahu

The Reason why some Wing Chun Kicks are not powerful is because people don't train them. Bruce Lee front Kicks and Side kicks were extremely powerful. Because he kicked a 400lbs heavy bag. Thats how Wing Chun guys can generate more power. Start hitting a heavy sand bag. When you send 200lbs flying up to roof then your ready to launch a human body. Also practicing hundreds of kicks in the air aid in increasing power along with strecthing and horse stance!



dungeonworks said:


> How is the energy different in Wing Chun and kickboxing??? Aside the round kicks, many are still linear like in Wing Chun. I like the directness and non telegraphic nature of the Wing Chun kicks, but they are nowheres near as powerfull as they are from a conditioned an well trained kickboxer as I have exerienced on my own body. Same with knees and elbows.
> 
> Tae Kwon Do has vuirtually the same thing as the front kick of Wing Chun as did Koeikan and I believe Muay Thai. I've seen many a knees get kicked in person and in MMA fights. It is not as dramatic of a technique as many believe. It is if you hit it at the correct angle with their weight on it (as taught in Wing Chun), but even then (see the recent Brandon Vera vs Kieth Jardine...Vera landed THE Wing Chun front kick!).


----------



## mook jong man

I absolutely reject the notion that Wing Chun kicks are not powerful . As with everything it depends of the pedigree of the person you are trained by .
 Unless you have gone around to every Kwoon in the world and held a kick shield for them it is a bit of a generalisation to say they have no power . 
The many branches of Wing Chun are varied and have different ways of doing things , just because you have felt the power of one lineage or even one school and deemed it lacking that might not be the case for every lineage or Kwoon . 

Case in point one of the instructors at our school was held up by a bloke at an atm and he hook kicked him in the thigh and broke the bloke's femur ( our hook kick only travels about 3 feet but is amplified by latching the attacker into the kick) I would say that's plenty of power .

 The point I'm trying to make is that not all Wing Chun is created equal and in the commercial world we live in people won't spend enough time on the basics as they should to build a solid stance . 

Indeed in my own lineage in our Sigungs school in Hong Kong the students don't get taught to kick till after about 4 years , they mostly do chi sau for 5 or 6 hours a night 6 days a week, he requires that their stance is rock solid and they have thorough understanding of Sil Lum Tao form .

 Sigung thinks that any one thats been training for less than 10 years is still a beginner . But believe me if you are hit by these people you do not get back up .

 Now I ask you what westerners in commercial schools are going to train like that , they expect to learn a new trick every night before they've even mastered the last one and think they should be learning the pole 3 months after they join up , and if they don't get what they want they walk out and go to some charlatan who will give it to them .
End of rant .


----------



## seasoned

MJS said:


> Now hopefully you can answer my next question. Of course, if someone was reaching towards us, one would expect that we'd begin our defense then, not waiting. ex: someone starts reaching towards us to grab our lapel. At that point, we could defend even though the grab has not happened. Now, in the case of the video clip with the headlock, had this been fully applied, what would his response have been? At that point, obviously his structure isn't as stable as if he were standing. In my art, Kenpo, we have defenses in the event that the attack is actually completed. Harder to defend? Sure, however, there are still ways to cancel out certain actions of our opponent.
> 
> Looking forward to your reply.
> 
> Mike


 
Once the head lock is applied and you are bent over, there are 3 things that could happen to the person in the head lock. First you could get thrown to the ground, second while he has your head in his arm, his other fist is hitting your face, and third while you are in the head lock he could swing his leg closest to you, out, and drop straight down, bringing you with him. All three places are not where you want to be.J When you are first grabbed in the head lock, say by his left arm, and he bends over and locks in, multiple things need to happen. You need to adjust your left leg as far forward as you can and check his left leg. At the same time you will use your left hand to grab his arm that is around your neck, pull down, and turn your head toward his body, and tuck your chin in. Also while doing the top two, bring your right arm up from behind and as mentioned, grab what ever you can, and pull back while standing upright again. As you begin to return to the upright position, let go of his arm with you left hand and strike his groin. While he is quite preoccupied slip your head out and apply an arm bar to the arm that held your head. Once the arm bar is applied, drive him to the ground, face down, keep a hold of his left arm while you kneel into the middle of his back with your right knee, grab his hair, pull up, and slam his face into the ground. While still holding his left arm, stand up, lift your right leg up and do a stomp kick to the middle of his back. After that, step back, turn and run, and dont look back. This is a complete, from beginning to end, but you can stop where ever you want. J


----------



## Si-Je

I totally FEEL you man! (mook jong man)
This is why we don't have alot of students!  One little girl came into our class and asked me what our "special super secret power move was!"  
I couldn't help it, I said, " XX, triangle, circle, back, up, right button!"  (I'm a nintendo kid, it slipped out before I could stop it!) lol!
She wasn't interested in the class.  I told her the chainpunching was the bestest, baddest, super secret, power move to start with.  (she was 9).  Went to Karate class.
But, we did get two 10 and 12 year old brothers who were the best!  They'd been kicked out of everyother karate school and such, kung fu guys won't teach kids around here, so we happily took up the "rejects".  They were totally awesome.  But, we only had three kids, one teenage boy, and four men.  And ONE woman! 
Can't get women to take the class as much as I'd like.  But they love my WC aerobics class.  

There's alot of schools that have marketing down to a science, they sell CD's online, charge you 200 a month for "coaching" in your "business", and hand out belts like candy.  One guy we taught for, his orginazations kids classes was like that.  Had a great business, was a good guy, really bad self-defense.  I spent 6 weeks re-teaching the kids TKD kicking, because it was too sloppy, couldn't let that slide.  He wouldn't let us teach the kids WC at all because he said they'd win too much and crap out his other instructors.  But, they didnt' even know how to block TKD style in sparring!  Fixed that too.  
We didn't last long there, but learned alot about the mentality we were trying to teach to.
People seem to need to feel that their making progress, they need to "see" that progress in an official looking format, i.e. a certificate, belt, stripe, trophey, plaque or patch.  They want to be able to gage their progress compared to others in class in a time scale/goal oriented manner so they feel like they're learning at the rate they're supposed too.
I blame the industrial revolution, public school grading and teaching systems, and general work force "Office Space" (like the move) type mentality that is rampant here in the U.S.  And the instant glorification of media in general here.  We have unrealistic expectations placed on us by ourselves and by others, and it's the defacto.  
Wing Chun "progress" is not always so gratifying, noticable, or glorified and celabrated.  
Mostly I think, "man! I'm just sucking at this!  I thought I was getting good!"  And that's when Hubbie shows me "new" stuff, that seems like the "old" stuff only for some reason it's harder because he added one or two little movements or concepts.  Right?!
You have to be pretty stubborn to do WC/WT for a quality period of time.


----------



## mook jong man

Si-Je said:


> I totally FEEL you man! (mook jong man)
> This is why we don't have alot of students! One little girl came into our class and asked me what our "special super secret power move was!"
> I couldn't help it, I said, " XX, triangle, circle, back, up, right button!" (I'm a nintendo kid, it slipped out before I could stop it!) lol!
> She wasn't interested in the class. I told her the chainpunching was the bestest, baddest, super secret, power move to start with. (she was 9). Went to Karate class.
> But, we did get two 10 and 12 year old brothers who were the best! They'd been kicked out of everyother karate school and such, kung fu guys won't teach kids around here, so we happily took up the "rejects". They were totally awesome. But, we only had three kids, one teenage boy, and four men. And ONE woman!
> Can't get women to take the class as much as I'd like. But they love my WC aerobics class.
> 
> There's alot of schools that have marketing down to a science, they sell CD's online, charge you 200 a month for "coaching" in your "business", and hand out belts like candy. One guy we taught for, his orginazations kids classes was like that. Had a great business, was a good guy, really bad self-defense. I spent 6 weeks re-teaching the kids TKD kicking, because it was too sloppy, couldn't let that slide. He wouldn't let us teach the kids WC at all because he said they'd win too much and crap out his other instructors. But, they didnt' even know how to block TKD style in sparring! Fixed that too.
> We didn't last long there, but learned alot about the mentality we were trying to teach to.
> People seem to need to feel that their making progress, they need to "see" that progress in an official looking format, i.e. a certificate, belt, stripe, trophey, plaque or patch. They want to be able to gage their progress compared to others in class in a time scale/goal oriented manner so they feel like they're learning at the rate they're supposed too.
> I blame the industrial revolution, public school grading and teaching systems, and general work force "Office Space" (like the move) type mentality that is rampant here in the U.S. And the instant glorification of media in general here. We have unrealistic expectations placed on us by ourselves and by others, and it's the defacto.
> Wing Chun "progress" is not always so gratifying, noticable, or glorified and celabrated.
> Mostly I think, "man! I'm just sucking at this! I thought I was getting good!" And that's when Hubbie shows me "new" stuff, that seems like the "old" stuff only for some reason it's harder because he added one or two little movements or concepts. Right?!
> You have to be pretty stubborn to do WC/WT for a quality period of time.


 
You are a 110 % correct , but I think that it is a problem that effects all martial arts , the dreaded Mcdojo syndrome . They are dictated to by the student because they depend on the student for profit , so for Gods sake don't do anything to piss off the prescious student or they will leave taking there fees with them . 

I think a lot of the real effective Wing Chun is being taught in guy's garages where they don't have to depend on the student for fees or only a small nominal amount and don't have to teach kids . 

The kind of places where you have to be in the know to get into and have a letter , I know that is the case with Sigungs school in Hong Kong where he teaches in his small apartment and you had to have a letter of recommendation from somebody to be able to train there , and if they don't like you or think you might be of dubious character then you are out of there buddy . 

That reply about the nintendo was a classic what was the expression on her face like when you said that ? I'll tell you a good one , I used to have these two young chinese boys in my class , they were good boys did everything you told em to do . 

They were identical twins one was named Lionel and the other was named Ritchie . In our school it was required that you had your name on your shirt.
 One day I was teaching a technique to the group and the boys were standing right next to each other and I looked at them and started laughing because when they stood together it spelled LIONEL RITCHIE . 

Needless to say the joke was lost on them because they were young and wouldn't know Lionel Ritchie from a bar of soap , but I thought it was hilarious .


----------



## Yoshiyahu

You are right Mook Jong Man. What I am speaking about is some people who lineage don't do phyiscal contact. Some lineages do only Chi Sau and drills. No kick shields, No Kicking the tree. Rarely do stance work outside of doing forms and drills. They rarely practice kicks,
So there kicks have no power when they decided to kick. Furthermore their kicks looks sloppy because they don't practice kicks. i asked this one Sifu what he does to work on his kicks. he says he doesn't practice kicks. I was like wow. An he only punches in air. I asked him about the wall bag or heavy bag. He says well that I only tap the wall bag lightly. I don't give it any impact. Just light taps. I like the idea. But you should use harder blows along with light taps. in my opinion you should mix it up. The light an slow taps build chi. But the Explosive snap an power also helps increase fa-jing. You need to practice Fa-Jing as well as Chi.

Some wingchunners and sifus don't teach that. I am bless that my sifu did. An much of what you said reminds me of my sifu.




mook jong man said:


> I absolutely reject the notion that Wing Chun kicks are not powerful . As with everything it depends of the pedigree of the person you are trained by .
> Unless you have gone around to every Kwoon in the world and held a kick shield for them it is a bit of a generalisation to say they have no power .
> The many branches of Wing Chun are varied and have different ways of doing things , just because you have felt the power of one lineage or even one school and deemed it lacking that might not be the case for every lineage or Kwoon .
> 
> Case in point one of the instructors at our school was held up by a bloke at an atm and he hook kicked him in the thigh and broke the bloke's femur ( our hook kick only travels about 3 feet but is amplified by latching the attacker into the kick) I would say that's plenty of power .
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is that not all Wing Chun is created equal and in the commercial world we live in people won't spend enough time on the basics as they should to build a solid stance .
> 
> Indeed in my own lineage in our Sigungs school in Hong Kong the students don't get taught to kick till after about 4 years , they mostly do chi sau for 5 or 6 hours a night 6 days a week, he requires that their stance is rock solid and they have thorough understanding of Sil Lum Tao form .
> 
> Sigung thinks that any one thats been training for less than 10 years is still a beginner . But believe me if you are hit by these people you do not get back up .
> 
> Now I ask you what westerners in commercial schools are going to train like that , they expect to learn a new trick every night before they've even mastered the last one and think they should be learning the pole 3 months after they join up , and if they don't get what they want they walk out and go to some charlatan who will give it to them .
> End of rant .


----------



## mook jong man

Yoshiyahu said:


> You are right Mook Jong Man. What I am speaking about is some people who lineage don't do phyiscal contact. Some lineages do only Chi Sau and drills. No kick shields, No Kicking the tree. Rarely do stance work outside of doing forms and drills. They rarely practice kicks,
> So there kicks have no power when they decided to kick. Furthermore their kicks looks sloppy because they don't practice kicks. i asked this one Sifu what he does to work on his kicks. he says he doesn't practice kicks. I was like wow. An he only punches in air. I asked him about the wall bag or heavy bag. He says well that I only tap the wall bag lightly. I don't give it any impact. Just light taps. I like the idea. But you should use harder blows along with light taps. in my opinion you should mix it up. The light an slow taps build chi. But the Explosive snap an power also helps increase fa-jing. You need to practice Fa-Jing as well as Chi.
> 
> Some wingchunners and sifus don't teach that. I am bless that my sifu did. An much of what you said reminds me of my sifu.


 
What the hell is the point of having a wall bag if your just going to caress it tenderly with little love taps , you might as well go and punch your pillow lol .

 It is very important to hit the wallbag as hard as you can to condition your knuckles , develop elbow force and be able to learn to relax and not let the recoil of the strike travel back into your body .

 In my opinion you can only develop that skill by striking objects that give you resistance not by punching the air , don't get me wrong I've done a fair bit of air punching myself , it has its place .
 But it should always be balanced with a lot of impact training on equipment as well .


----------



## Si-Je

mook jong man said:


> You are a 110 % correct , but I think that it is a problem that effects all martial arts , the dreaded Mcdojo syndrome . They are dictated to by the student because they depend on the student for profit , so for Gods sake don't do anything to piss off the prescious student or they will leave taking there fees with them . .


 
lol!  student's WILL get ticked off, WC/WT's frustrating.  it's inevitable.  And there are alot of McDojo's running around as the norm.



mook jong man said:


> I think a lot of the real effective Wing Chun is being taught in guy's garages where they don't have to depend on the student for fees or only a small nominal amount and don't have to teach kids .
> 
> The kind of places where you have to be in the know to get into and have a letter , I know that is the case with Sigungs school in Hong Kong where he teaches in his small apartment and you had to have a letter of recommendation from somebody to be able to train there , and if they don't like you or think you might be of dubious character then you are out of there buddy . .


 
True that.  We've had the best students in a small class.  Just me and hubbie, so we can't split up the class to teach larger groups of people.  (only two instructors)
I love teaching kids because they expect nothing, and therefor see everything.  And do what you tell them without as much guff.  Therefore learn faster.  I always liked a more private class than the bigger ones, especially training WC/WT.



mook jong man said:


> That reply about the nintendo was a classic what was the expression on her face like when you said that ? .


 
Perterbed was the expression.  People are waaaay too serious these days.  Training should be fun, otherwise, why would you do it for long?  Kid was serious, I found her comical, and thought she was joking, had a bit of wit to her.  Misjudged that one.  I've had to seriously curb my weird sense of humor, many don't get it or apprectiate my corney, goofey mindset, especially adults.  Kids are more apt to like it.  Told hubbie, I don't want to teach adults anymore.  Just teach women and kids.  (women have more understanding for the lighter side usually)


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I totally agree with you. I don't know this guy is either a sifu or high ranking student. But I just don't understand. He is also the guy who says he doesn't practice kicks. He has wing chun instructional videos on youtube and website. Don't get me wrong he is very skilled...I love his Chi Sau just awesome. But he said that if you hit the wall bag hard you will develop arthritis when your old. An he says there is no reason to practice kicks. They will be there when you need them? I just don't get it. Either he was pulling my chain and wanted to hold knowledge for himself. Or he really doesn't do those things. I was just wanted outside opinions. To see how close it matches up to what I have learn from my sifu an studied on my own?


But I guess alls his kwoon do is Forms.Chi Sau and Partner Drills. Tends to be alot of that lately.

Very interesting!



mook jong man said:


> What the hell is the point of having a wall bag if your just going to caress it tenderly with little love taps , you might as well go and punch your pillow lol .
> 
> It is very important to hit the wallbag as hard as you can to condition your knuckles , develop elbow force and be able to learn to relax and not let the recoil of the strike travel back into your body .
> 
> In my opinion you can only develop that skill by striking objects that give you resistance not by punching the air , don't get me wrong I've done a fair bit of air punching myself , it has its place .
> But it should always be balanced with a lot of impact training on equipment as well .


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Whats the difference between Gracie Jiu Jitsu and regular Japanese Jiu Jitsu?


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> Whats the difference between Gracie Jiu Jitsu and regular Japanese Jiu Jitsu?


 

no, no, please no.  lol!  
I see absolutely no correlation of WC/WT principles in BJJ or Japanese Ju-Jitsu.  JJJ has smaller circles, sometimes called small circle ju-jitsu, I've missed those circles in BJJ, don't see 'em.  

I've done the all time favorite BJJ armbar on hubbie (where you put the arm between your legs as you lay your legs on their chest and arch your back for the elbow break.)
Right there biggest difference of BJJ from JJJ.  manipulation of only one joint.  Hubbie is much stronger and was able to simply arm curl out of the arm bar on me and stronger men too.  Too much use of strength.  

JJJ similar armbar I would have opponent on their side/ribs, with one knee in their rib and other in the side of their neck/head.  Pinned.  You wrap your arm around their arm, tucking their wrist/forearm under your armpit, pinneing it there.  The wrapping arm's forearm braces against the elbow joint, that same hand locks out on the other arm in a triangle fashion.  Your arch your back, working against the wrist and the elbow.  Or if they shift and are able to bend the elbow you "tan sau" the bent elbow you have wrapped and pivot whole body towards their head.  breaks the elbow and the shoulder out of socket.

Most arm bars in JJJ you manipulate the wrist as well to give better leverage in the armbar.  I have not ever seen this done in BJJ.  People say because the wrists are taped you can't do that.  A torking twisting motion on the wrist (like a corkscrew) would still hurt on a taped up wrist.  JJJ flexes the small bones in the back of the hand and fingers to exert control and pain while setting up for joint locks and to keep a person in a joint lock.  BJJ doesn't.  

I've got more. lol!  There's so much more! lol!  
Basically, JJJ "locks out" on a joint, or choke, BJJ doesn't.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Wow, Sounds like you should be writing books now on that...very good...





Si-Je said:


> no, no, please no. lol!
> 
> 
> 
> I see absolutely no correlation of WC/WT principles in BJJ or Japanese Ju-Jitsu. JJJ has smaller circles, sometimes called small circle ju-jitsu, I've missed those circles in BJJ, don't see 'em.
> 
> I've done the all time favorite BJJ armbar on hubbie (where you put the arm between your legs as you lay your legs on their chest and arch your back for the elbow break.)
> Right there biggest difference of BJJ from JJJ. manipulation of only one joint. Hubbie is much stronger and was able to simply arm curl out of the arm bar on me and stronger men too. Too much use of strength.
> 
> JJJ similar armbar I would have opponent on their side/ribs, with one knee in their rib and other in the side of their neck/head. Pinned. You wrap your arm around their arm, tucking their wrist/forearm under your armpit, pinneing it there. The wrapping arm's forearm braces against the elbow joint, that same hand locks out on the other arm in a triangle fashion. Your arch your back, working against the wrist and the elbow. Or if they shift and are able to bend the elbow you "tan sau" the bent elbow you have wrapped and pivot whole body towards their head. breaks the elbow and the shoulder out of socket.
> 
> Most arm bars in JJJ you manipulate the wrist as well to give better leverage in the armbar. I have not ever seen this done in BJJ. People say because the wrists are taped you can't do that. A torking twisting motion on the wrist (like a corkscrew) would still hurt on a taped up wrist. JJJ flexes the small bones in the back of the hand and fingers to exert control and pain while setting up for joint locks and to keep a person in a joint lock. BJJ doesn't.
> 
> I've got more. lol! There's so much more! lol!
> Basically, JJJ "locks out" on a joint, or choke, BJJ doesn't.


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> Wow, Sounds like you should be writing books now on that...very good...


 
lol! your too kind.  I'd have to actually take BJJ classes, and I don't really want to do that.  
I'll go to a couple of seminars though, (as long as their free! lol!)  I just wait until some BJJ guy comes into class and watch and work out with them.  I don't mention my JJJ training at all.  It confuses them when they think I'm all Wing Chun.  (which I am, now) 

One thing about BJJ is when they try for a hold, lock, or choke the way they direct their energy on the hold it's very defined, labored, and often obvious.  They tend to get too focused on one technique and work at it till they have it, even if they never get the hold.  Instead of flowing to another joint lock, choke, or hold.  Oh, it's hard to explain without sounding snotty, I really don't mean it that way.  It's just that studing JJJ we drilled often to flow from one wrist or arm lock to another.  If we encountered too much resistance, then you'd flow to another joint lock in the direction that their pulling away, pushing, or moving to.  
i.e. - I try kotogashie (wrist lock) and their too strong and resist too much, then you jerk quickly into reverse-kotogashie (a meaner wrist lock incorporating the elbow upward.  Breaking wrist and elbow), if that doesn't work, you flow bend the elbow and take the arm behind them, still flexing the wrist fingers pointing up while behind their back (this re-inforces an arm twisted behind their back)  And on and on, until you hear a "snap".  But, we would drill these locks standing, sitting, and on the ground.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Why did you have to take BJJ Classes?





Si-Je said:


> lol! your too kind. I'd have to actually take BJJ classes, and I don't really want to do that.
> I'll go to a couple of seminars though, (as long as their free! lol!) I just wait until some BJJ guy comes into class and watch and work out with them. I don't mention my JJJ training at all. It confuses them when they think I'm all Wing Chun. (which I am, now)
> 
> One thing about BJJ is when they try for a hold, lock, or choke the way they direct their energy on the hold it's very defined, labored, and often obvious. They tend to get too focused on one technique and work at it till they have it, even if they never get the hold. Instead of flowing to another joint lock, choke, or hold. Oh, it's hard to explain without sounding snotty, I really don't mean it that way. It's just that studing JJJ we drilled often to flow from one wrist or arm lock to another. If we encountered too much resistance, then you'd flow to another joint lock in the direction that their pulling away, pushing, or moving to.
> i.e. - I try kotogashie (wrist lock) and their too strong and resist too much, then you jerk quickly into reverse-kotogashie (a meaner wrist lock incorporating the elbow upward. Breaking wrist and elbow), if that doesn't work, you flow bend the elbow and take the arm behind them, still flexing the wrist fingers pointing up while behind their back (this re-inforces an arm twisted behind their back) And on and on, until you hear a "snap". But, we would drill these locks standing, sitting, and on the ground.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> I've done the all time favorite BJJ armbar on hubbie (where you put the arm between your legs as you lay your legs on their chest and arch your back for the elbow break.)
> Right there biggest difference of BJJ from JJJ. manipulation of only one joint. Hubbie is much stronger and was able to simply arm curl out of the arm bar on me and stronger men too. Too much use of strength.


 
I've tried this as well.  Of course, one of the main differences between actually making the tech. work or not, is having the arm glued to your chest before you begin to go down for the armbar.  Additionally, you (the person doing the armbar) need to be close to the other person.  If there is a gap that will make it much easier to escape/resist.  






Si-Je said:


> One thing about BJJ is when they try for a hold, lock, or choke the way they direct their energy on the hold it's very defined, labored, and often obvious. They tend to get too focused on one technique and work at it till they have it, even if they never get the hold. Instead of flowing to another joint lock, choke, or hold. Oh, it's hard to explain without sounding snotty, I really don't mean it that way. It's just that studing JJJ we drilled often to flow from one wrist or arm lock to another. If we encountered too much resistance, then you'd flow to another joint lock in the direction that their pulling away, pushing, or moving to.
> i.e. - I try kotogashie (wrist lock) and their too strong and resist too much, then you jerk quickly into reverse-kotogashie (a meaner wrist lock incorporating the elbow upward. Breaking wrist and elbow), if that doesn't work, you flow bend the elbow and take the arm behind them, still flexing the wrist fingers pointing up while behind their back (this re-inforces an arm twisted behind their back) And on and on, until you hear a "snap". But, we would drill these locks standing, sitting, and on the ground.


 
Personally, I never understood why someone would continue to focus on getting that lock if they're having that much difficulty.  I mean, like you said, why not move onto something else?


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> Why did you have to take BJJ Classes?


 
Oh, everyone always complaines when I talk about this stuff on here that I've never taken BJJ for weeks, months, or years, whatever.  
We went to a couple of seminars, and have trained with BJJ students of 8 onths to 10 years in our sparring classes back when when had a building for the school.
It just isn't an art I want to devote time to learning from what I've been exposed to.  It'll just mess up my WC/WT, get in the way of working on striking and keeping my space from attacker when they are in grappling range.  I don't want to play their game, I want to play my game, WC/WT.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> I've tried this as well. Of course, one of the main differences between actually making the tech. work or not, is having the arm glued to your chest before you begin to go down for the armbar. Additionally, you (the person doing the armbar) need to be close to the other person. If there is a gap that will make it much easier to escape/resist. ?


 
Yes, I was as close as you could get.  Had his arm right in my cleavage, totally on the chest from beginning to end. 
It is simple physics.  He outweighs me 100% body mass, he benches 250lbs, He curls 100 lbs.  I weigh all together 120 lbs, it's easy for him to curl my bodyweight with one arm enough to get out.  Just not going to work on a larger opponent.  That's why they have weight classes in UFC so this stuff will work.





MJS said:


> Personally, I never understood why someone would continue to focus on getting that lock if they're having that much difficulty. I mean, like you said, why not move onto something else?


 
I agree totally, and only demonstrate the technique to teach the students the favorite BJJ armbar, so they can practice getting out of it with WT anti-grappling, so it's as "real" as we can get it.  When they get that down, I lock out on them using Japanese Ju-jitsu, when they can get out of those locks then their set.  When they can use tan sau and corkscrew their body and get out of a joint locked wrist, elbow, and shoulder in jeporady then any joint lock they come across will be escapeable.  But, that is waaaaay further on in their training.  
The BJJ techniques are much easier to start with to train them how to escape locks and holds without injury to the learning student.  I'm just now learning how to escape from JJJ techniques.  This is all where chi sau comes into full play.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Yes, I was as close as you could get. Had his arm right in my cleavage, totally on the chest from beginning to end.
> It is simple physics. He outweighs me 100% body mass, he benches 250lbs, He curls 100 lbs. I weigh all together 120 lbs, it's easy for him to curl my bodyweight with one arm enough to get out. Just not going to work on a larger opponent. That's why they have weight classes in UFC so this stuff will work.


 
So, let me ask you this...pre weight class, you had Royce fighting guys that outwieghed him and he still pulled off the win, although it did take a bit of time.  IIRC, the idea of BJJ, again, in the Royce days, was technique over strength.  Today, watching some of the MMA matches, yes, the focus now seems to be G&P as well as trying to use strength over tech.  

For the record, I'm not a BJJ nutrider.  I do enjoy BJJ, however, I'm not so blind that I think that its the best thing since sliced bread. LOL.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> So, let me ask you this...pre weight class, you had Royce fighting guys that outwieghed him and he still pulled off the win, although it did take a bit of time. IIRC, the idea of BJJ, again, in the Royce days, was technique over strength. Today, watching some of the MMA matches, yes, the focus now seems to be G&P as well as trying to use strength over tech.
> 
> For the record, I'm not a BJJ nutrider. I do enjoy BJJ, however, I'm not so blind that I think that its the best thing since sliced bread. LOL.


 
Royce did fight larger men in the day, but he's not a small man.  he's 6'2" and was about 185 lbs of lean muscle.  This is nowhere what I've got going for me, or just about ANY woman.  I've 5'4" 120lbs. of soft, just had a baby couple of years ago muscle. lol!  (no, I'm in really good shape, but still)  
My arm length is half hubbie's arm reach, for me to use these techniques on a guy like him is just very highly improbable.
So, for a tiny woman bebopin' around in life if I get attacked by the unknown attacker he could be bigger and more muscular than hubbie.  (who is very lean for his height of 6'5" not alot of body builder type mucles.  Just wicked athletic build strength)
To me, this very technique could possibly litteraly put my life in danger, and so many women believe that training BJJ is the best way to defeat a larger and stronger man. This is just not true.  Not scientifically, not practially, and not realisticly true.

Why should I train this when I KNOW it won't work on a much larger and stronger attacker?

That's why these MMA guys are hitting the weight room because they know they have a much chance of beating a BJJ fighter with bulk and strength.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Didn't the UFC start off with out weight classes and gloves.




Si-Je said:


> That's why they have weight classes in UFC so this stuff will work.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Royce did fight larger men in the day, but he's not a small man. he's 6'2" and was about 185 lbs of lean muscle. This is nowhere what I've got going for me, or just about ANY woman. I've 5'4" 120lbs. of soft, just had a baby couple of years ago muscle. lol! (no, I'm in really good shape, but still)
> My arm length is half hubbie's arm reach, for me to use these techniques on a guy like him is just very highly improbable.
> So, for a tiny woman bebopin' around in life if I get attacked by the unknown attacker he could be bigger and more muscular than hubbie. (who is very lean for his height of 6'5" not alot of body builder type mucles. Just wicked athletic build strength)
> To me, this very technique could possibly litteraly put my life in danger, and so many women believe that training BJJ is the best way to defeat a larger and stronger man. This is just not true. Not scientifically, not practially, and not realisticly true.
> 
> Why should I train this when I KNOW it won't work on a much larger and stronger attacker?
> 
> That's why these MMA guys are hitting the weight room because they know they have a much chance of beating a BJJ fighter with bulk and strength.


 
A few questions:

You said, "He curls 100 lbs."  

Is this 1 handed or with both hands?

As for this post...according to Sherdog, and this very well could've changed, Royce is 6'0 and 176lbs.  He beat Dan Severn who is 6'2, 250.  He beat Kimo who is 6'3, 235.  Remco Paroel 6'2, 250.  

And then we have Helio Gracie.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hélio_Gracie



> Due to his smaller size, he realized many of the judo moves required brute strength that his diminutive stature did not allow. He began adapting the moves for his particular physical attributes, and through trial and error learned to maximize leverage, thus minimizing the force that needed to be exerted to execute the move. From these experiments, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, formally Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, was created. Using these new techniques, smaller and weaker opponents gained the capability to defend themselves and even defeat much larger opponents.


 
As for the fighters of today..IMHO, the UFC has changed its focus.  The original focus was to pit style vs. style, to show that GJJ was superior, that you did not need to be a huge man in order to defeat someone.


----------



## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> Didn't the UFC start off with out weight classes and gloves.


 
Yes.


----------



## Si-Je

When did Royce Gracie beat Kimbo Slice? They have never fought. (not that I've ever heard)
Last time I saw Royce fight he got beaten by an American collegic wrestler (Matt Hughes), and he pounded his head in the mat from behind. inchworm style.

Hubbie curls 100lbs both arms. He curls me with both arms. Sure, pin his other hand with my legs, which my legs are as big as his arm that I'm trying to pin. Sounds like an arm wrestling match to me, not very effecient.
(again, why would one even try to do this?! It's a mystery to me. I'd much rather have him on his side and my knees in his ribs and neck with his arm wrapped leaving him only one way to roll,.. and that will dislocate his shoulder or break his own elbow. That's JJJ style.) 

Or even better, have my knee in his groin/gut, and the other knee in his throat and be chainpunching his brains out. Ryding him like a boogie board where ever he trys to roll to, constantly chain punching his head, ribs, throat, stomach, groin, whatever. That's anti-grappling style.

Royces weight, height, and strength ratio is nothing comparied to the contrast between someone of my size against someone as tall, heavy, and strong as hubbie.
You tell a small man, my size and weight, and have them do this on another man hubbies size and weight, then I'll consider these techniques. 

Even with the added leverage you use in Japanese Ju-Jitsu you still need a ton of strength to pull off those techniques against larger stronger opponents. That's when I used to lift weights to get stronger for JJJ class. Well, I'm not 18 anymore, and don't want to have to be doing that. It's a waste of time, unless you just like spending hours in the gym. And I HATE the gym, it's a meat market. lol! When I want to work out, I want to be left alone. so anyways....

What was the question again? lol. 
Oh, and yes, they didn't have weight classes or gloves in the early days of UFC. That's when it was fun. But, that's when the JJJ sensi elbowed some poor guy in the head until he crushed in the entire side of his face. Very horrible. But, that's what I was taught, so oh well. 

I never saw Gracie fight a JJJ fighter, WT/WC fighter, a Judo fighter (he may have, just haven't see that one yet), or a Suai Jaou fighter (chinese wrestling, can't spell it. ack.) etc.. 
there are certian stylist that he chooses not to fight. Sure, he fought a couple of kung fu stylists, but that doesn't cover ALL kung fu, and it doesn't prove BJJ against kung fu. Ever see the movie fearless with Jet Li, true story about a real wu shu founder, and he fought fighters for years before he came out on top as the best kung fu. That's because there's sooooo many.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> A few questions:
> 
> You said, "He curls 100 lbs."
> 
> Is this 1 handed or with both hands?
> 
> As for this post...according to Sherdog, and this very well could've changed, Royce is 6'0 and 176lbs. He beat Dan Severn who is 6'2, 250. He beat Kimo who is 6'3, 235. Remco Paroel 6'2, 250.
> .


 
250-176= is a 74lb weigh difference. 235-120=115 lb weight difference. very drastic in comparision. now Add that royce was only 2 inches shorter than Severn, and that I am a full foot shorter than a man of hubbies stature. Arm range of me and hubbie, he can hit me in face before my fist gets to his bicep. His arm reach is 80 inches. I don't know what mine is, about 55-60 on a guess.



MJS said:


> As for the fighters of today..IMHO, the UFC has changed its focus. The original focus was to pit style vs. style, to show that GJJ was superior, that you did not need to be a huge man in order to defeat someone.


 
That may be so as in back in the day. When it first came out I wasn't aware that the Gracie family owned some of the stock and sat on the board of directors or whatever for the UFC. That really changes my attitude and perspective of the old UFC fights. They seem, more set up to favor GJJ. 
But, I never got the impression that a "small" man could defeat a really larger stronger man using GJJ or BJJ whatever from the early days. Just saw another lean, muscular, tall man wrapping his entire body around another man's single arm, or choking them out with a Gi, etc. I knew better then, and I really know better now NOT to believe that hog wash. I was taking JJJ when the Gracies came out, we all watched it together, and laughed. Honestly. 
Some of the techniques may have looked familiar for a second, then he does something completely off the wall, don't know where that stuff came from. Must be a Brazil thing, seriously.
I really enjoyed watching Ken Shamrock beating Royce in the old UFC days, that was a 45 minute fight of you watching two big buys hugging each other on the matts, hardly moving at all. They were at a stalemate for 45 minutes! The most boring fight ever, what won the match? The strength and Stamina of the larger, stronger fighter Ken Shamrock. 
Done deal. That's what UFC taught me about BJJ.

Ken Shamrock won this fight.  I don't care what anyone says.




Who's lookin' pretty now?  The stronger fighter.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> When did Royce Gracie beat Kimbo Slice? They have never fought. (not that I've ever heard)
> Last time I saw Royce fight he got beaten by an American collegic wrestler (Matt Hughes), and he pounded his head in the mat from behind. inchworm style.


 
No, not Kimbo, Kimo, from UFC3.
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Kimo-Leopoldo-43



> Hubbie curls 100lbs both arms. He curls me with both arms. Sure, pin his other hand with my legs, which my legs are as big as his arm that I'm trying to pin. Sounds like an arm wrestling match to me, not very effecient.
> (again, why would one even try to do this?! It's a mystery to me. I'd much rather have him on his side and my knees in his ribs and neck with his arm wrapped leaving him only one way to roll,.. and that will dislocate his shoulder or break his own elbow. That's JJJ style.)
> 
> Or even better, have my knee in his groin/gut, and the other knee in his throat and be chainpunching his brains out. Ryding him like a boogie board where ever he trys to roll to, constantly chain punching his head, ribs, throat, stomach, groin, whatever. That's anti-grappling style.
> 
> Royces weight, height, and strength ratio is nothing comparied to the contrast between someone of my size against someone as tall, heavy, and strong as hubbie.
> You tell a small man, my size and weight, and have them do this on another man hubbies size and weight, then I'll consider these techniques.
> 
> Even with the added leverage you use in Japanese Ju-Jitsu you still need a ton of strength to pull off those techniques against larger stronger opponents. That's when I used to lift weights to get stronger for JJJ class. Well, I'm not 18 anymore, and don't want to have to be doing that. It's a waste of time, unless you just like spending hours in the gym. And I HATE the gym, it's a meat market. lol! When I want to work out, I want to be left alone. so anyways....
> 
> What was the question again? lol.
> Oh, and yes, they didn't have weight classes or gloves in the early days of UFC. That's when it was fun. But, that's when the JJJ sensi elbowed some poor guy in the head until he crushed in the entire side of his face. Very horrible. But, that's what I was taught, so oh well.


 
We could go round and round with this. The fact remains that GJJ fighters have fought and beat people who are larger.  

God, the more I talk about this, I feel so dirty, like those BJJ nutriders. LOL!



> I never saw Gracie fight a JJJ fighter, WT/WC fighter, a Judo fighter (he may have, just haven't see that one yet), or a Suai Jaou fighter (chinese wrestling, can't spell it. ack.) etc..
> there are certian stylist that he chooses not to fight. Sure, he fought a couple of kung fu stylists, but that doesn't cover ALL kung fu, and it doesn't prove BJJ against kung fu. Ever see the movie fearless with Jet Li, true story about a real wu shu founder, and he fought fighters for years before he came out on top as the best kung fu. That's because there's sooooo many.


 
Hey, I don't know what to tell you.  Personally, I'd have loved to have seen the Royce/Emin fight, but it seems like both sides  not agree.  Oh well....


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> 250-176= is a 74lb weigh difference. 235-120=115 lb weight difference. very drastic in comparision. now Add that royce was only 2 inches shorter than Severn, and that I am a full foot shorter than a man of hubbies stature. Arm range of me and hubbie, he can hit me in face before my fist gets to his bicep. His arm reach is 80 inches. I don't know what mine is, about 55-60 on a guess.


 
Fact remains he fought Severn primarily on his back for their entire fight, and still pulled off a win. 





> That may be so as in back in the day. When it first came out I wasn't aware that the Gracie family owned some of the stock and sat on the board of directors or whatever for the UFC. That really changes my attitude and perspective of the old UFC fights. They seem, more set up to favor GJJ.


 
Yes, thats very possible and possibly quite true.





> But, I never got the impression that a "small" man could defeat a really larger stronger man using GJJ or BJJ whatever from the early days. Just saw another lean, muscular, tall man wrapping his entire body around another man's single arm, or choking them out with a Gi, etc. I knew better then, and I really know better now NOT to believe that hog wash. I was taking JJJ when the Gracies came out, we all watched it together, and laughed. Honestly.


 
Like I said, I'm not going to go round and round. Its out there, its been proven. Of course, I could turn the tables, and say that its laughable that you think that WC is the ultimate art as well. Judging by some of your posts, that is the impression that you give off. 




> Some of the techniques may have looked familiar for a second, then he does something completely off the wall, don't know where that stuff came from. Must be a Brazil thing, seriously.
> I really enjoyed watching Ken Shamrock beating Royce in the old UFC days, that was a 45 minute fight of you watching two big buys hugging each other on the matts, hardly moving at all. They were at a stalemate for 45 minutes! The most boring fight ever, what won the match? The strength and Stamina of the larger, stronger fighter Ken Shamrock.
> Done deal. That's what UFC taught me about BJJ.


 
That fight, the joke that it was, was declaired a draw. And before you get too cocky, Shamrock lost to Gracie in UFC 1 to a RNC.



> Ken Shamrock won this fight. I don't care what anyone says.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who's lookin' pretty now? The stronger fighter.


 
Can't watch this fight at work. I'll have to comment on that later.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> No, not Kimbo, Kimo, from UFC3.
> http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Kimo-Leopoldo-43
> 
> 
> 
> We could go round and round with this. The fact remains that GJJ fighters have fought and beat people who are larger.
> 
> God, the more I talk about this, I feel so dirty, like those BJJ nutriders. LOL!....


 
Okay, I remember Kimo, the simoan guy? Didn't he have long hair in that fight and Gracie was yanking on his doo? If that's the fight I'm remembering, they stopped that fight too early. Kimo never tapped out, wasn't locked out either. Gracie had him in an armbar but Kimo was curling out of it when they stopped the fight.

BJJ nutriders, lol! I'm gonna use that one! that's good.

But, your right, we could go on forever and people have. They just call Gracie undefeated, I disagree.




MJS said:


> Hey, I don't know what to tell you. Personally, I'd have loved to have seen the Royce/Emin fight, but it seems like both sides not agree. Oh well....


 
That would be groovy! But, why make UFC more rich off such an awesome fight? I think that was the biggest problem. Besides, you've got two "emporers" with their own kingdoms so to speak, why do either of them need to risk that? Get their student's to do the work, that's the benefit of becoming someone who's already made a name for themselves. No need for either of them to prove anything else. It's time for the next generation to do that....
hint, hint... lol!


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> Fact remains he fought Severn primarily on his back for their entire fight, and still pulled off a win.
> 
> Like I said, I'm not going to go round and round. Its out there, its been proven. Of course, I could turn the tables, and say that its laughable that you think that WC is the ultimate art as well. Judging by some of your posts, that is the impression that you give off.
> 
> That fight, the joke that it was, was declaired a draw. And before you get too cocky, Shamrock lost to Gracie in UFC 1 to a RNC.


 
I know Gracie beat Shamrock in UFC 1, just don't like that fact that he declares he's totally undefeated.  Just not true.

As for WC/WT being the ultimate art in my opinion.  Well sure, why would I train it?  lol! 
no, really, it's just the most effecient and practical art I've ever come across.  It's enabled me to defend in situations I always thought impossible.
So what if I think it's the ultimate?  People often have that opinion of the arts they train, BJJ, MMA, karate, TKD, judo, penjak silat, krav maga, etc... 

I have unwavering faith in the art I train, and will not be convinced by those that want to say it's not totally bad a**, because they don't like it, understand it, or have never heard of it.  Whatever their reasoning for trying to convince me it's not well rounded and a "complete system" of fighting is just bunk.

1.  It has weapons in it.
2.  It has ground fighting (anti-grappling) in it and takedowns/throws
3.  It has pressure points, nerves, chi in it (avoiding grappling and takedowns completely with stance and structure, then learning how to attack your opponent's structure with that same energy)
4.  It encompasses the five fighting distances in it and trains you how to engage in each distance.

How can it not be a completely well rounded system?  This is why I think it's the ultimate.  I don't need to crosstrain, I just need to finish learning THIS art.

And that will never happen, your always learning WT/WC forever. lol!  But, that's okay with me.  And yes, I'm uppitty still love ya'll though!


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Okay, I remember Kimo, the simoan guy? Didn't he have long hair in that fight and Gracie was yanking on his doo? If that's the fight I'm remembering, they stopped that fight too early. Kimo never tapped out, wasn't locked out either. Gracie had him in an armbar but Kimo was curling out of it when they stopped the fight.


 
Here is that fight:




 
If you look close, you will see Kimo tap and yes, it seems that the arm was locked.  



> BJJ nutriders, lol! I'm gonna use that one! that's good.


 
Applies to other arts as well, not just BJJ. 



> But, your right, we could go on forever and people have. They just call Gracie undefeated, I disagree.


 
Yup.





> That would be groovy! But, why make UFC more rich off such an awesome fight? I think that was the biggest problem. Besides, you've got two "emporers" with their own kingdoms so to speak, why do either of them need to risk that? Get their student's to do the work, that's the benefit of becoming someone who's already made a name for themselves. No need for either of them to prove anything else. It's time for the next generation to do that....
> hint, hint... lol!


 
Personally, the Gracies have the 'anywhere, anyone, anyplace' motto, so I don't know why they just didn't hold the fight at the Gracie Academy?  Royce comes off as the best in the world, as does Emin, so both should just stop making excuses and just fight.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> I know Gracie beat Shamrock in UFC 1, just don't like that fact that he declares he's totally undefeated. Just not true.


 
I believe he has more losses than he lets on.



> As for WC/WT being the ultimate art in my opinion. Well sure, why would I train it? lol!
> no, really, it's just the most effecient and practical art I've ever come across. It's enabled me to defend in situations I always thought impossible.
> So what if I think it's the ultimate? People often have that opinion of the arts they train, BJJ, MMA, karate, TKD, judo, penjak silat, krav maga, etc...
> 
> I have unwavering faith in the art I train, and will not be convinced by those that want to say it's not totally bad a**, because they don't like it, understand it, or have never heard of it. Whatever their reasoning for trying to convince me it's not well rounded and a "complete system" of fighting is just bunk.
> 
> 1. It has weapons in it.
> 2. It has ground fighting (anti-grappling) in it and takedowns/throws
> 3. It has pressure points, nerves, chi in it (avoiding grappling and takedowns completely with stance and structure, then learning how to attack your opponent's structure with that same energy)
> 4. It encompasses the five fighting distances in it and trains you how to engage in each distance.
> 
> How can it not be a completely well rounded system? This is why I think it's the ultimate. I don't need to crosstrain, I just need to finish learning THIS art.
> 
> And that will never happen, your always learning WT/WC forever. lol! But, that's okay with me. And yes, I'm uppitty still love ya'll though!


 
See, the above is the same thing that those BJJ nutriders say....that BJJ is the best.  Hey, I like my arts as well, but again, I'm not so blind as to say that its unbeatable.  If there was an unbeatable art, that art would put all the others out of business.  

As far as your list goes...there are weapon disarms, as well as a few weapon forms.  There are defenses against grappling attacks.  Depending on who you talk to, you may find some that have a more indepth understanding of the ground fighting aspect.  PP/nerve strikes can easily be incorporated.  Various ranges are addressed in the techs. as well.

IMHO, many arts have what you say.  However, I would be very hard pressed to say that WC weapon work is better than a weapon based art such as Arnis and Kali.  Those are weapon based arts, and I dont feel that a non weapon based art is going to have that edge over an art that specializes in a particular area.  

Like I say, I enjoy very much, the arts that I do.  Again, I will admit that there are limitations.  BJJ for example lacks in the weapons area as well as when it comes to fighting more than one person.  Yet we see those nutriders who swear by it saying that its the ultimate in self defense.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> See, the above is the same thing that those BJJ nutriders say....that BJJ is the best. Hey, I like my arts as well, but again, I'm not so blind as to say that its unbeatable. If there was an unbeatable art, that art would put all the others out of business. .


 
Who said WC/WT is an "unbeatable art"?  That's stretching it a bit, since it always depends on the practitioner that applies it.  I think it's one of the best self defense arts out there, yes, but nothing is unfallable.



MJS said:


> As far as your list goes...there are weapon disarms, as well as a few weapon forms. There are defenses against grappling attacks. Depending on who you talk to, you may find some that have a more indepth understanding of the ground fighting aspect. PP/nerve strikes can easily be incorporated. Various ranges are addressed in the techs. as well.
> 
> IMHO, many arts have what you say. However, I would be very hard pressed to say that WC weapon work is better than a weapon based art such as Arnis and Kali. Those are weapon based arts, and I dont feel that a non weapon based art is going to have that edge over an art that specializes in a particular area. .


 
I never said it was better than Arnis and kali or other weapon based arts, simply that it incorporates weapons as much as anyother balanced or "well rounded" art.  Although, I'm finding that alot of people don't get as far in WC/WT to learn the weapons training.  Eitherway, the principles are largely the same.  A weapon is an extention of your arm, you use it very similar to how you fight open handed, whatever style.



MJS said:


> Like I say, I enjoy very much, the arts that I do. Again, I will admit that there are limitations. BJJ for example lacks in the weapons area as well as when it comes to fighting more than one person. Yet we see those nutriders who swear by it saying that its the ultimate in self defense.


 
I don't see as many limitations in WC/WT I guess as other people might.  I guess the style or "lineage" of what I'm taught pretty much covers most bases.  I do think it's a superior form of self-defense than some other arts, but again, to call it the "ultimate" would be based on preference and speculation.  I would call upon WC/WT before anything else I've EVER trained, any other style I've ever worked with in the past.  

For a test of self defense technique do this: take any technique you learn from anywhere anystyle and try to execute it while standing in a door frame, or lying down on the floor in a narrow door frame.  Can it be done in that kind of position?  With only that much space to work with?  If it can't, I wouldn't train it as much.  Chunk it.

You get attacked for real that's about all the space you may have, and that "what if" senario is better to be prepared for and made comfortable than not, and finding yourself in a "tight spot" just to Only Then find out that your grappling won't work in the hallway to your apartment, or your spinning kick doesn't work between two parked cars, or that you have a hard time lunging deep in the isle of a bus.  Bad times to find that out.  Self defense isn't for the mats, the ring, or the dojo, it should be designed what it's intended to be used for.  The street.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> Here is that fight:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you look close, you will see Kimo tap and yes, it seems that the arm was locked.
> 
> 
> Personally, the Gracies have the 'anywhere, anyone, anyplace' motto, so I don't know why they just didn't hold the fight at the Gracie Academy? Royce comes off as the best in the world, as does Emin, so both should just stop making excuses and just fight.


 
Been a long time since I saw that fight. Barely saw him tap. Didn't they fight again? oh, well. 

As for fighting at the Gracie's Academy, I sure wouldn't fall for that one. lol! Neutral ground is a MUST, you don't fight anyone on their "turf" unless your a bully, crazy, or just .... There are legal issues to consider too, what if you beat Gracie and he sued you for disturbing his place of business? In Texas that's really serious offense, don't know about other states, but it doesn't seem like a good idea. What if you beat him and his other students and black belts decided to "bano" (gang jump) you right there who's to stop that from happening?

What if we offered the same challenge to BJJ stylists to come to our school and match fight? Would they? I think you'd have the same stalemate, one person saying "no, come to me", the other, "no, YOU come over here." lol!
Neutral ground is the best. A tourney, or such, this would make it fair to all involved.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Wow very informative...you have been a busy bee Si-Je




Si-Je said:


> When did Royce Gracie beat Kimbo Slice? They have never fought. (not that I've ever heard)
> Last time I saw Royce fight he got beaten by an American collegic wrestler (Matt Hughes), and he pounded his head in the mat from behind. inchworm style.
> 
> Hubbie curls 100lbs both arms. He curls me with both arms. Sure, pin his other hand with my legs, which my legs are as big as his arm that I'm trying to pin. Sounds like an arm wrestling match to me, not very effecient.
> (again, why would one even try to do this?! It's a mystery to me. I'd much rather have him on his side and my knees in his ribs and neck with his arm wrapped leaving him only one way to roll,.. and that will dislocate his shoulder or break his own elbow. That's JJJ style.)
> 
> Or even better, have my knee in his groin/gut, and the other knee in his throat and be chainpunching his brains out. Ryding him like a boogie board where ever he trys to roll to, constantly chain punching his head, ribs, throat, stomach, groin, whatever. That's anti-grappling style.
> 
> Royces weight, height, and strength ratio is nothing comparied to the contrast between someone of my size against someone as tall, heavy, and strong as hubbie.
> You tell a small man, my size and weight, and have them do this on another man hubbies size and weight, then I'll consider these techniques.
> 
> Even with the added leverage you use in Japanese Ju-Jitsu you still need a ton of strength to pull off those techniques against larger stronger opponents. That's when I used to lift weights to get stronger for JJJ class. Well, I'm not 18 anymore, and don't want to have to be doing that. It's a waste of time, unless you just like spending hours in the gym. And I HATE the gym, it's a meat market. lol! When I want to work out, I want to be left alone. so anyways....
> 
> What was the question again? lol.
> Oh, and yes, they didn't have weight classes or gloves in the early days of UFC. That's when it was fun. But, that's when the JJJ sensi elbowed some poor guy in the head until he crushed in the entire side of his face. Very horrible. But, that's what I was taught, so oh well.
> 
> I never saw Gracie fight a JJJ fighter, WT/WC fighter, a Judo fighter (he may have, just haven't see that one yet), or a Suai Jaou fighter (chinese wrestling, can't spell it. ack.) etc..
> there are certian stylist that he chooses not to fight. Sure, he fought a couple of kung fu stylists, but that doesn't cover ALL kung fu, and it doesn't prove BJJ against kung fu. Ever see the movie fearless with Jet Li, true story about a real wu shu founder, and he fought fighters for years before he came out on top as the best kung fu. That's because there's sooooo many.


----------



## Si-Je

oooh, oh! He hasn't fought Aikido, Krav Maga, or Silat either. lol!


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Hell have just do some challenging...




Si-Je said:


> oooh, oh! He hasn't fought Aikido, Krav Maga, or Silat either. lol!


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Who said WC/WT is an "unbeatable art"? That's stretching it a bit, since it always depends on the practitioner that applies it. I think it's one of the best self defense arts out there, yes, but nothing is unfallable.


 
Actually, you kinda gave that impression here.

"As for WC/WT being the ultimate art in my opinion. Well sure"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ultimate[1]

 d*:* the best or most extreme of its kind 




> I never said it was better than Arnis and kali or other weapon based arts, simply that it incorporates weapons as much as anyother balanced or "well rounded" art. Although, I'm finding that alot of people don't get as far in WC/WT to learn the weapons training. Eitherway, the principles are largely the same. A weapon is an extention of your arm, you use it very similar to how you fight open handed, whatever style.


 
Hmm..IIRC, in past discussions, I had said that many arts cover a wide variety of areas, ie: weapons, ground work, etc.  I also suggested that if one wanted to expand, looking at another art would be necessary.  That comment is usually met with people saying that their art has it all.  My usual reply is I beg to differ.  





> I don't see as many limitations in WC/WT I guess as other people might. I guess the style or "lineage" of what I'm taught pretty much covers most bases. I do think it's a superior form of self-defense than some other arts, but again, to call it the "ultimate" would be based on preference and speculation. I would call upon WC/WT before anything else I've EVER trained, any other style I've ever worked with in the past.


 
See above. 



> For a test of self defense technique do this: take any technique you learn from anywhere anystyle and try to execute it while standing in a door frame, or lying down on the floor in a narrow door frame. Can it be done in that kind of position? With only that much space to work with? If it can't, I wouldn't train it as much. Chunk it.


 
Well, of course environment is going to dictate what you can/can't do.  Let me give this as an example.  Many times, people ask if techiques are trained on both the left and right side.  So, a tech. that would normally be done for say a right punch, do that same tech. for a left punch.  Now, some do this, and some dont.  The ones that dont usually say that there're other techs. that address the left, so why bother trying to modify something.  So the same can be said about trying to modify a stand up tech for a ground attack.  There are specific ground fighting techs. that address a mount escape, so instead of playing around with a stand up tech., I'm going to use one specifically for the ground. 



> You get attacked for real that's about all the space you may have, and that "what if" senario is better to be prepared for and made comfortable than not, and finding yourself in a "tight spot" just to Only Then find out that your grappling won't work in the hallway to your apartment, or your spinning kick doesn't work between two parked cars, or that you have a hard time lunging deep in the isle of a bus. Bad times to find that out. Self defense isn't for the mats, the ring, or the dojo, it should be designed what it's intended to be used for. The street.


 
Yup, many times I've said that the goal of SD should be to be able to adapt on the fly and we should be able to deal with the situation presented to us and modify as necessary.   So yes, in those tight quarters, we certainly won't be rolling on the ground, but we will be in the standing grappling/clinch range.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Been a long time since I saw that fight. Barely saw him tap. Didn't they fight again? oh, well.


 
AFAIK, that was the only time they fought.



> As for fighting at the Gracie's Academy, I sure wouldn't fall for that one. lol! Neutral ground is a MUST, you don't fight anyone on their "turf" unless your a bully, crazy, or just .... There are legal issues to consider too, what if you beat Gracie and he sued you for disturbing his place of business? In Texas that's really serious offense, don't know about other states, but it doesn't seem like a good idea. What if you beat him and his other students and black belts decided to "bano" (gang jump) you right there who's to stop that from happening?
> 
> What if we offered the same challenge to BJJ stylists to come to our school and match fight? Would they? I think you'd have the same stalemate, one person saying "no, come to me", the other, "no, YOU come over here." lol!
> Neutral ground is the best. A tourney, or such, this would make it fair to all involved.


 
Did you ever see the long exchange between Emin and Rorion?  An offer was made to fight in the UFC, someone backed out because of one reason or another.  Another place was suggested, someone backed out.  I mean really, if they wanted to fight bad enough, stop the excuses and make it happen.  

See, this is why people shouldn't make the claims that their art is the best.  Gracie always said, "Anywhere, anyone, anytime" and when people take them up on that, someone comes up with an excuse.  People talk crap about Kenpo all the time.  Ya know what, I could care less.  I don't walk around claiming that its something its not.  Does this mean I am ashamed of my art?  Of course not.  If someone wants to think its something less, thats fine.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Hey guys we got way off topic...originally the topic was



*Never really knew...* 
*Man I never really knew what Wing Chun was before I youtubed it. I mean Ive seen the style just never put a name to it. I love this style of fighting. Too bad there are no schools in my area.*


We got to get back on topic here. May we can start up a thread concerning UFC...or add some comments to an old one....


Here is a possible thread that may interest you:

*How to defeat a Wrestler:*

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70343



MJS said:


> AFAIK, that was the only time they fought.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever see the long exchange between Emin and Rorion? An offer was made to fight in the UFC, someone backed out because of one reason or another. Another place was suggested, someone backed out. I mean really, if they wanted to fight bad enough, stop the excuses and make it happen.
> 
> See, this is why people shouldn't make the claims that their art is the best. Gracie always said, "Anywhere, anyone, anytime" and when people take them up on that, someone comes up with an excuse. People talk crap about Kenpo all the time. Ya know what, I could care less. I don't walk around claiming that its something its not. Does this mean I am ashamed of my art? Of course not. If someone wants to think its something less, thats fine.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

In your opinion what must a Wing Chun Disciple do to make his Kicks Strong and not weak...how should he practice it so it stands out. Whats a good way to develop a Kick that can send a wrestler flying if he is foolish enough to shoot straight in on you. 


Also Do you believe Wing Chun can stand against a Wrestler with out playing the wrestlers game?




mook jong man said:


> I absolutely reject the notion that Wing Chun kicks are not powerful . As with everything it depends of the pedigree of the person you are trained by .
> Unless you have gone around to every Kwoon in the world and held a kick shield for them it is a bit of a generalisation to say they have no power .
> The many branches of Wing Chun are varied and have different ways of doing things , just because you have felt the power of one lineage or even one school and deemed it lacking that might not be the case for every lineage or Kwoon .
> 
> Case in point one of the instructors at our school was held up by a bloke at an atm and he hook kicked him in the thigh and broke the bloke's femur ( our hook kick only travels about 3 feet but is amplified by latching the attacker into the kick) I would say that's plenty of power .
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is that not all Wing Chun is created equal and in the commercial world we live in people won't spend enough time on the basics as they should to build a solid stance .
> 
> Indeed in my own lineage in our Sigungs school in Hong Kong the students don't get taught to kick till after about 4 years , they mostly do chi sau for 5 or 6 hours a night 6 days a week, he requires that their stance is rock solid and they have thorough understanding of Sil Lum Tao form .
> 
> Sigung thinks that any one thats been training for less than 10 years is still a beginner . But believe me if you are hit by these people you do not get back up .
> 
> Now I ask you what westerners in commercial schools are going to train like that , they expect to learn a new trick every night before they've even mastered the last one and think they should be learning the pole 3 months after they join up , and if they don't get what they want they walk out and go to some charlatan who will give it to them .
> End of rant .


----------



## mook jong man

Yoshiyahu said:


> In your opinion what must a Wing Chun Disciple do to make his Kicks Strong and not weak...how should he practice it so it stands out. Whats a good way to develop a Kick that can send a wrestler flying if he is foolish enough to shoot straight in on you.
> 
> 
> Also Do you believe Wing Chun can stand against a Wrestler with out playing the wrestlers game?


 
For strong kicks you have to have a solid base , ie a good stance , develop speed in your kicks by using only the muscles needed to execute the kick , this is achieved by repetition and also you must train power by kicking various types of equipment heavybags , hand held kick shields etc.

In regards to kicking a wrestler I would not recommend it at all , he is already trying to get to your legs , throwing out a kick is just handing it to him on a plate .



> Also Do you believe Wing Chun can stand against a Wrestler with out playing the wrestlers game?


It depends on what you define as playing the wrestler's game , I am not governed by any rules so I will do what ever it takes . I have done shootfighting before so I might use techniques from that or I might use Wing Chun.
 It depends on what the posture of the attacker is , at waist height , diving for my boot laces , head up or down , face exposed etc , and at what stage I recognise the attack is coming .


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> AFAIK, that was the only time they fought.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever see the long exchange between Emin and Rorion? An offer was made to fight in the UFC, someone backed out because of one reason or another. Another place was suggested, someone backed out. I mean really, if they wanted to fight bad enough, stop the excuses and make it happen.
> 
> See, this is why people shouldn't make the claims that their art is the best. Gracie always said, "Anywhere, anyone, anytime" and when people take them up on that, someone comes up with an excuse. People talk crap about Kenpo all the time. Ya know what, I could care less. I don't walk around claiming that its something its not. Does this mean I am ashamed of my art? Of course not. If someone wants to think its something less, thats fine.


 
Guess they didn't want to fight that bad then.
I'm so tired of the old addage of the "gracie anytime anywhere" open challenge.  It's obviously just not true.  He wouldn't fight anytime and anywhere in this scenario.  Whatever the reason.  Emin didn't make that bold statement, so him "backing out" isn't to me isn't a "disgrace" or detriment to his word or character.

Anyways, will try to get a fight sceduled soon, but since these people like to have fighters fight for free or peanuts in pay, this may take us awhile.  We have to cover the cost of registering and medical ourselves, and we just don't have it right now.  Hubbie's doing this for himself and his love of the art.  We've both realized that even if he wins, it won't matter to anyone, they'll have plenty of excuses to downplay his victory over a BJJ, wrestler, or MMA fighter.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Thankyou for your response very interesting?




mook jong man said:


> For strong kicks you have to have a solid base , ie a good stance , develop speed in your kicks by using only the muscles needed to execute the kick , this is achieved by repetition and also you must train power by kicking various types of equipment heavybags , hand held kick shields etc.
> 
> In regards to kicking a wrestler I would not recommend it at all , he is already trying to get to your legs , throwing out a kick is just handing it to him on a plate .
> 
> 
> It depends on what you define as playing the wrestler's game , I am not governed by any rules so I will do what ever it takes . I have done shootfighting before so I might use techniques from that or I might use Wing Chun.
> It depends on what the posture of the attacker is , at waist height , diving for my boot laces , head up or down , face exposed etc , and at what stage I recognise the attack is coming .


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Guess they didn't want to fight that bad then.
> I'm so tired of the old addage of the "gracie anytime anywhere" open challenge. It's obviously just not true. He wouldn't fight anytime and anywhere in this scenario. Whatever the reason. Emin didn't make that bold statement, so him "backing out" isn't to me isn't a "disgrace" or detriment to his word or character.


 
Just for clarification, I was not pointing fingers at one particular person.  Both sides are just as much to blame for the fight not happening.  IMO, it seems like it was alot of the old saying, "All talk, no action."  

For your reading enjoyment.  Yes, its a long read. 



> Anyways, will try to get a fight sceduled soon, but since these people like to have fighters fight for free or peanuts in pay, this may take us awhile. We have to cover the cost of registering and medical ourselves, and we just don't have it right now. Hubbie's doing this for himself and his love of the art. We've both realized that even if he wins, it won't matter to anyone, they'll have plenty of excuses to downplay his victory over a BJJ, wrestler, or MMA fighter.


 
I'm not up to date on the payscale for fighters, but I have to wonder....a newbie to the UFC vs. someone who has been there for a while....who is going to get the higher pay?  I mean, I'd think that if you've already proven yourself and are on the level of a Randy or Chuck, you're going to get more, than if you were fighting for the first time in the UFC in the prelim. matches.  I mean, even in the real world, you don't get top pay at your job, if you've only been there for a month. You work your way up, you prove yourself and gradually you get your pay raises.


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> Guess they didn't want to fight that bad then.
> I'm so tired of the old addage of the "gracie anytime anywhere" open challenge.  It's obviously just not true.  He wouldn't fight anytime and anywhere in this scenario.  Whatever the reason.  Emin didn't make that bold statement, so him "backing out" isn't to me isn't a "disgrace" or detriment to his word or character.



How is it not true???  Ever seen any of the "Gracie Jiujitsu in Action" series???  Show me a Wing Chun or another martial artist(s) that step or have stepped up as they have.  I'm not talking those of "verbal" record, but those with actual evidence such as the library of video tape that the Gracie's have.  Yes, you can go into any of the Gracie Family run dojo's to this day and have a crack at the $10k.  They've done it for years and years.



Si-Je said:


> Anyways, will try to get a fight sceduled soon, but since these people like to have fighters fight for free or peanuts in pay, this may take us awhile.  We have to cover the cost of registering and medical ourselves, and we just don't have it right now.  Hubbie's doing this for himself and his love of the art.  We've both realized that even if he wins, it won't matter to anyone, they'll have plenty of excuses to downplay his victory over a BJJ, wrestler, or MMA fighter.



MMA is not the career if you want money.  Rashaad Evans just made $130,000 WITH a $60,000 bonus for fight of the night...and that was for taking the 205 lb. belt, with an undefeated 18-0-1 MMA record, and the marketability from a hit reality TV show.  Most local MMA events, here in Michigan, they fight for free or in rare cases (fights in the Indian Reserves) under $100 ($700-$1000 if they compete and win a 4-8 man tourney) because in many states, ametuer MMA is all that is legal and because there are not near as many (if any) ametuer regulations.


----------



## jarrod

dungeonworks said:


> MMA is not the career if you want money. Rashaad Evans just made $130,000 WITH a $60,000 bonus for fight of the night...and that was for taking the 205 lb. belt, with an undefeated 18-0-1 MMA record, and the marketability from a hit reality TV show. Most local MMA events, here in Michigan, they fight for free or in rare cases (fights in the Indian Reserves) under $100 ($700-$1000 if they compete and win a 4-8 man tourney) because in many states, ametuer MMA is all that is legal and because there are not near as many (if any) ametuer regulations.


 
KC area you can get $200-$500 your first pro fight IF you fall in with a good sized promotion. hardly good money. most fighters i know get most of their money off of the ticket sales. like DW said, it's not a high paying career.

jf


----------



## MJS

Found these links:
http://www.fighting-mma.com/articles/ufc-its-time-to-pay-up.php

http://www.fighting-mma.com/mma-news/ufc-fighter-salaries.php


There are more out there, which I'm sure would give more info.  I just posted the above as an example.  Something else to consider...how many times in a year is each person going to fight?  If you fight 3 times a year, making $10,000 for each fight...is that enough to survive in todays world?  Now, someone like Chuck, who may make 6 figures for each fight...he will probably be better off, but don't forget, he's built himself up, vs. someone who is just getting their feet wet.


----------



## dungeonworks

MJS said:


> Found these links:
> http://www.fighting-mma.com/articles/ufc-its-time-to-pay-up.php
> 
> http://www.fighting-mma.com/mma-news/ufc-fighter-salaries.php
> 
> 
> There are more out there, which I'm sure would give more info.  I just posted the above as an example.  Something else to consider...how many times in a year is each person going to fight?  If you fight 3 times a year, making $10,000 for each fight...is that enough to survive in todays world?  Now, someone like Chuck, who may make 6 figures for each fight...he will probably be better off, but don't forget, he's built himself up, vs. someone who is just getting their feet wet.



Usually on Sherdog and MMAweekly, they put up salary payouts and list any bonuses for things like Fight of the Night, KO of the Night, Sub of the Night...ect.  Usually the UFC doubles the salary for such bonuses capping them at $60k and they do not include sponsors payments, which is where the fighters actually get ahead financially.  One overlooked factor to casual MMA fans is that these guys usually have to pay sparring partners and trainers and any medical out of pocket.

Also, to stay on topic and not hijack this thread I would like to make a note on my comments.  I am not stating grappling or Wing Chun/Tsun is better or worse.  I am saying that their is a lot to learn from BJJ/GJJ that is applicable to most if not all principles of WC/T.  To be more speciffic, I think the principles of WC/T can *IMPROVE A PLAYERS JIUJITSU*.  Another gained attribute of combining them is fittness levels which is applicable to any physical conflict.  You may have the exception to the rule or freakish WC/T player that has uncanny ability to adapt his/her WC/T and be freakishly ridiculously near impossible to take to the ground altogether, but for a guy like me that was 35 and brand new to WC with experience in a few different styles, I will need a crutch before it is realisticly possible for me to grasp WC concepts to that level.  My Sifu's disciple is one of those guys that would fall under "freakish" ability to avoid the ground! LOL  He has sensitivity nearing JEDI-LIKE ability! LOL  As for Sifu himself, I doubt I would be conscious beyond 3 seconds of my best day and that is saying a lot IMVHO.


----------



## jarrod

dungeonworks said:


> Usually on Sherdog and MMAweekly, they put up salary payouts and list any bonuses for things like Fight of the Night, KO of the Night, Sub of the Night...ect. Usually the UFC doubles the salary for such bonuses capping them at $60k and they do not include sponsors payments, which is where the fighters actually get ahead financially. One overlooked factor to casual MMA fans is that these guys usually have to pay sparring partners and trainers and any medical out of pocket.
> 
> Also, to stay on topic and not hijack this thread I would like to make a note on my comments. I am not stating grappling or Wing Chun/Tsun is better or worse. I am saying that their is a lot to learn from BJJ/GJJ that is applicable to most if not all principles of WC/T. To be more speciffic, I think the principles of WC/T can *IMPROVE A PLAYERS JIUJITSU*. Another gained attribute of combining them is fittness levels which is applicable to any physical conflict. You may have the exception to the rule or freakish WC/T player that has uncanny ability to adapt his/her WC/T and be freakishly ridiculously near impossible to take to the ground altogether, but for a guy like me that was 35 and brand new to WC with experience in a few different styles, I will need a crutch before it is realisticly possible for me to grasp WC concepts to that level. My Sifu's disciple is one of those guys that would fall under "freakish" ability to avoid the ground! LOL He has sensitivity nearing JEDI-LIKE ability! LOL As for Sifu himself, I doubt I would be conscious beyond 3 seconds of my best day and that is saying a lot IMVHO.


 
you're not going to get any sympathy here, dungeonworks!  WC is a complete & superior art with nothing to gain by associating with other arts.   :roflmao:

jf


----------



## Si-Je

With WC/WT you don't need other arts to balance out you fighting range.  
And Wing Chun concepts fitting in with BJJ concepts?!? seriously?  Don't swallow that BJJ propoganda.


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> With WC/WT you don't need other arts to balance out you fighting range.
> And Wing Chun concepts fitting in with BJJ concepts?!? seriously?  Don't swallow that BJJ propoganda.




I disagree....strongly.  It is every bit dependent on the practitioner, their skill level, and their physical attributes...and YES, Wing Chun concepts could very well be integrated into the BJJ system as noted by Carlos Gracie Jr.  He being somewhat of an expert on the subject, well, I would find it hard to disagree given his pedigree and documented success in NHB/Vale Tudo matches.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> With WC/WT you don't need other arts to balance out you fighting range.
> And Wing Chun concepts fitting in with BJJ concepts?!? seriously? Don't swallow that BJJ propoganda.


 
"As for WC/WT being the ultimate art in my opinion. Well sure"

"Who said WC/WT is an "unbeatable art"? 


So, pretty much you're saying that it is the ultimate art.


----------



## GBlues

Si-Je said:


> With WC/WT you don't need other arts to balance out you fighting range.
> And Wing Chun concepts fitting in with BJJ concepts?!? seriously? Don't swallow that BJJ propoganda.


 
Yeah that's because wing chun/wing tsun, is so well designed to work in kicking range, punching ranges, trapping ( which is what it was actually designed for), and grappling ranges. Makes me wonder why Bruce Lee advocated so much cross training if wing chun has everything anybody will ever need. I mean hell, we should all stop studying our particular styles because she's found the only one that will work perfectly in every situation, and it's WING CHUN! LOL! Sorry I had to go there.

Furthermore this thread has been hijacked numerous times and is grossly off topic. This has nothing to do with how to defeat a wrestler. THis has become a wing chun/wing tsun is so much better than everything else out there, and a no BJJ or mma or this style or that is so much better than wc/wt. GET REAL! If you like it, it works for you, you enjoy it, great! But there are flaws in every style, system and art known to man! If you refuse to believe that then you are blind. Now, the original question again is " How to defeat a wrestler" we have a person who has asked this question, and has received truthfully very few answers or suggestions. So lets get off of the art bashing, and the gracie's did this or didn't do that, and get back on topic. Cause' personally I find for myself that since there are supposed to be some very knowledgeable martial artists on this forum, that I too, might learn something of value. THus far, I ain't learned much! I've learned that BJJ and JJJ from the videos shown look an awful lot alike, now let's see some videos on how beat a wrestler when your not a wrestler. 


Please
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





?


----------



## MJS

GBlues said:


> Yeah that's because wing chun/wing tsun, is so well designed to work in kicking range, punching ranges, trapping ( which is what it was actually designed for), and grappling ranges. Makes me wonder why Bruce Lee advocated so much cross training if wing chun has everything anybody will ever need. I mean hell, we should all stop studying our particular styles because she's found the only one that will work perfectly in every situation, and it's WING CHUN! LOL! Sorry I had to go there.


 
Don't be sorry...its the truth. 



> Furthermore this thread has been hijacked numerous times and is grossly off topic. This has nothing to do with how to defeat a wrestler. THis has become a wing chun/wing tsun is so much better than everything else out there, and a no BJJ or mma or this style or that is so much better than wc/wt. GET REAL! If you like it, it works for you, you enjoy it, great! But there are flaws in every style, system and art known to man! If you refuse to believe that then you are blind. Now, the original question again is " How to defeat a wrestler" we have a person who has asked this question, and has received truthfully very few answers or suggestions. So lets get off of the art bashing, and the gracie's did this or didn't do that, and get back on topic. Cause' personally I find for myself that since there are supposed to be some very knowledgeable martial artists on this forum, that I too, might learn something of value. THus far, I ain't learned much! I've learned that BJJ and JJJ from the videos shown look an awful lot alike, now let's see some videos on how beat a wrestler when your not a wrestler.
> 
> 
> Please
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?


 
Hmm..I wouldn't say it drifted that far.  I commented earlier in the thread, that the best way to defend or defeat a particular art, would be to study something similar.  Want to keep up with a good puncher...work with a boxer.  Want to be better at stick and knife....go to the FMAs.  Want to be a better grappler....look for Sambo, Judo, or BJJ or even wrestling.  As far as the bashing goes....par for the course.  Sometimes I have to wonder if people bash something because they know deep down that its really worth something, but are too proud to admit it.

Mike


----------



## Si-Je

dungeonworks said:


> I disagree....strongly. It is every bit dependent on the practitioner, their skill level, and their physical attributes...and YES, Wing Chun concepts could very well be integrated into the BJJ system as noted by Carlos Gracie Jr. He being somewhat of an expert on the subject, well, I would find it hard to disagree given his pedigree and documented success in NHB/Vale Tudo matches.


 
What?  What is his "pedigree" in Wing Chun? How is he an "expert" on wing chun?  When did this happen?  If you want to swallow a clever marketing ploy to get folks to cross-train into BJJ then that's one thing.  But, BJJ techniques and "concepts" have nothing to do with WT/WC concepts.  Show me how the 5 principles of WC/WT fit with BJJ technique and concepts.  

And why would the physical attributes of a Wing Chun student or practitioner have anything to do with their "need" to compensate for these "short comings" with BJJ?  Don't tell me the same old stuff about how BJJ is designed for smaller people defending against larger opponents.  I totally disagree from experience and being a smaller person.  It does not work on larger opponents.  Sigh.
I see here the death of Wing Chun espectially in America.  If WC/WT practitioners and teachers alike are supplementing their wing chun with BJJ instead of fully teaching Wing Chun this is a crying shame.  And a sham.
But, each to whatever crutch needed.  You don't believe in the art, fine.  I can't change folk's minds in this, ya'll have already decided this is what you want to do.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> What? What is his "pedigree" in Wing Chun? How is he an "expert" on wing chun? When did this happen? If you want to swallow a clever marketing ploy to get folks to cross-train into BJJ then that's one thing. But, BJJ techniques and "concepts" have nothing to do with WT/WC concepts. Show me how the 5 principles of WC/WT fit with BJJ technique and concepts.


 
I won't comment on Bruce Lee...I'll save that for someone who could comment better than I.  However, as far as the BJJ goes...well, I beg to differ.  As I said before when talking about specific techs. I'd rather use a proven escape or counter, instead of trying to figure something out by translating a standup tech to the ground.



> And why would the physical attributes of a Wing Chun student or practitioner have anything to do with their "need" to compensate for these "short comings" with BJJ? Don't tell me the same old stuff about how BJJ is designed for smaller people defending against larger opponents. I totally disagree from experience and being a smaller person. It does not work on larger opponents. Sigh.
> I see here the death of Wing Chun espectially in America. If WC/WT practitioners and teachers alike are supplementing their wing chun with BJJ instead of fully teaching Wing Chun this is a crying shame. And a sham.
> But, each to whatever crutch needed. You don't believe in the art, fine. I can't change folk's minds in this, ya'll have already decided this is what you want to do.


 
So WC is basically the ultimate art then?  Out of curiosity, what is your background with BJJ?  How long have you trained in it, and who did you train with?  Perhaps its not the art, but the person doing the art.  In other words, if you don't have a solid understanding of how to apply something, of course you're going to have issues.


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## Yoshiyahu

MMA and other mixed martial arts must run its course...this is happening in other styles like Tai Chi...Si-Je...there are styles of Tai Chi that mixed Bagua and Xing Yi...there are even different stlyes of tai Chi that are mixed like sun style and wu style and chen style and yang style...its pretty crazy...I know of form that is very nice..it looks shaolin...but it is mongrel form....it has elements of 

Bagua
Tai Chi from "Yang, Chen and Sun"

So this is happening all Chinese MA right now...an I asked a sifu does he teach the pure wing chun system...he says he can give private lessons but they will be very expensive...like hundreds of dollars a class....

I see a market...its great...the Market will be pure Wing Chun or Pure Bagua or Pure Tai Chi....

In about ten years people will thirsty for a pure style in chinese martial arts...or Japanese martial arts will grow in popularity...MMA will persist in popularity...until CMA Purist step up and defeat the MMA's terribly...

But I do agree with some...you have to fight with others from different styles including wrestlers....this will prepare you for anything that may happen in a fight...but your skill level has to be high enough to defeat a wrestler a muay thai fighter a karate man or aikido or judo man. 

I would wondered who would win between a highschool or college wrestler verses BJJ?

Personally i like how many of the Judo moves look...if someone was skilled enough to pull those judo moves that would cool...slamming foes on the hard concrete on their heads...although Wing Chun has throws and take downs...some sifu's don't like teaching them...most Wing Chun Kwoons I have seen don't have mats...

But my Sifu fuses other styles with his...but he learn them exclusively...not mixed...his main style would five animals and five elements....he also is very skilled in the WC...atleast more skilled than I...He is able to totally hide his force so you can not sense his intent. Sensitivity almost doesn't work with him...Also he is growing in Tai Chi Chen style...He is Yang Tai Chi sifu ordained by a Chinese master. He also is skilled in Baguazhang...

So when he fights you do not know what he will use...





Si-Je said:


> What? What is his "pedigree" in Wing Chun? How is he an "expert" on wing chun? When did this happen? If you want to swallow a clever marketing ploy to get folks to cross-train into BJJ then that's one thing. But, BJJ techniques and "concepts" have nothing to do with WT/WC concepts. Show me how the 5 principles of WC/WT fit with BJJ technique and concepts.
> 
> And why would the physical attributes of a Wing Chun student or practitioner have anything to do with their "need" to compensate for these "short comings" with BJJ? Don't tell me the same old stuff about how BJJ is designed for smaller people defending against larger opponents. I totally disagree from experience and being a smaller person. It does not work on larger opponents. Sigh.
> I see here the death of Wing Chun espectially in America. If WC/WT practitioners and teachers alike are supplementing their wing chun with BJJ instead of fully teaching Wing Chun this is a crying shame. And a sham.
> But, each to whatever crutch needed. You don't believe in the art, fine. I can't change folk's minds in this, ya'll have already decided this is what you want to do.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> I won't comment on Bruce Lee...I'll save that for someone who could comment better than I. However, as far as the BJJ goes...well, I beg to differ. As I said before when talking about specific techs. I'd rather use a proven escape or counter, instead of trying to figure something out by translating a standup tech to the ground..


 
I wasn't asking about Bruce Lee I was asking what is this Gracie guys pedigree in Wing Chun?  I know where Bruce learned from.





MJS said:


> So WC is basically the ultimate art then? Out of curiosity, what is your background with BJJ? How long have you trained in it, and who did you train with? Perhaps its not the art, but the person doing the art. In other words, if you don't have a solid understanding of how to apply something, of course you're going to have issues.


 
You guys keep saying WC is the ultimate art. lol! I don't even have to say it ya'll say it for me.  It's better than BJJ in my not so humble opinion.  
My "training' in BJJ has been sparring with students of that art ranging from 1 year to 10 years in BJJ.  If they can't "mount" me, or choke me out or put me in a joint lock then I must be doing something right. lol!
I've tried to explain the techniques to you guys numerous times, the concepts of WT ground fighting, and you just won't listen you just refuse to understand it or even try it.  I don't know what to tell ya anymore.
I don't need to have a strong solid knowledge of BJJ and give them my money and train it for years.  I learn how to defeat it, taken from someone who's already figured out how to do it.  It's a simple as that.  Hubbie's learned this, his teacher learned this and it's worked for them, It'll work for me or anyone that wants to learn how to do it.  
You want to defeat a wrestler, don't wrestle him!  Punch his brains out, they think they can take it and train for that, so then, fine.  They train to get hit so hit them over and over and over again.  Simplicity.


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## Si-Je

I don't know why you'd think WT/WC was mainly developed for trapping.  My other teacher tells me that there are three schools of Wing Chun, and if you put them all together you'll get the whole system.

There are teachers that focus on the trapping mostly.
There's the Blitz mentality.
There's the deflection school of teaching.
Each teacher usually focus's more on one of the three per their preference.  But, put them all together, you'll have the complete art.

Many people get hung up on the trapping, and think that's all WC/WT's about, that everything we do is to that end.  This is a big misconception.  Trapping is great, if it "happens" you don't try to force it.  If you do, it won't work.  Sometimes you don't even need to trap, so why try for it all the time.  etc....


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> I wasn't asking about Bruce Lee I was asking what is this Gracie guys pedigree in Wing Chun? I know where Bruce learned from.


 
Ok.






> You guys keep saying WC is the ultimate art. lol! I don't even have to say it ya'll say it for me. It's better than BJJ in my not so humble opinion.
> My "training' in BJJ has been sparring with students of that art ranging from 1 year to 10 years in BJJ. If they can't "mount" me, or choke me out or put me in a joint lock then I must be doing something right. lol!
> I've tried to explain the techniques to you guys numerous times, the concepts of WT ground fighting, and you just won't listen you just refuse to understand it or even try it. I don't know what to tell ya anymore.
> I don't need to have a strong solid knowledge of BJJ and give them my money and train it for years. I learn how to defeat it, taken from someone who's already figured out how to do it. It's a simple as that. Hubbie's learned this, his teacher learned this and it's worked for them, It'll work for me or anyone that wants to learn how to do it.
> You want to defeat a wrestler, don't wrestle him! Punch his brains out, they think they can take it and train for that, so then, fine. They train to get hit so hit them over and over and over again. Simplicity.


 
Should I go back and find those posts again, that I pointed out to you?  

So, someone whos trained BJJ for 10yrs...should probably be black belt level...and they could not submit you??????  

You have your mind made up.  You claim that we don't understand WC, and while that may be true for me at least, I can say that you refuse to see what we're trying to say as well.  I don't believe I've said that you had to spend years training it.  Whats wrong with simply cross referencing ideas with someone who grapples?  Hey, if you don't want to add anything, thats fine.  You claim that you have beat it.  Tell me though...where does the WC anti grappling methods come from?


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> Ok.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should I go back and find those posts again, that I pointed out to you?
> 
> So, someone whos trained BJJ for 10yrs...should probably be black belt level...and they could not submit you??????
> 
> You have your mind made up. You claim that we don't understand WC, and while that may be true for me at least, I can say that you refuse to see what we're trying to say as well. I don't believe I've said that you had to spend years training it. Whats wrong with simply cross referencing ideas with someone who grapples? Hey, if you don't want to add anything, thats fine. You claim that you have beat it. Tell me though...where does the WC anti grappling methods come from?


 
oh my god, dude I've DONE this.  I've "cross referenced" ideas with many people that grapple for the past two years.  I've stated this over and over again, why do you refuse to remember it?  We had a 10 year BJJ teacher and teacher of JKD sparr hubbie repeatedly, couldn't get him to the ground.  Sure, I could spar with him, but instead I sparred more with his students.  I worked with him on ground fighting sure, but he couldn't submit me either on the ground.  He couldn't even get Hubbie ON the ground!  We all became friends and they'd come over and spar like everyother saturday for months.  We've been teaching together for the past 4 years, every MMA, grappler, BJJ had nosed student has come into our classes and wanted to work on ground fighting right away.  Hubbie obligizes.  I do too at times, but I'm busy running the school, taking care of the kiddo lately.  All "matches" have been friendly and fun, but I'm about to be done with that.

Why do you ask me where the WT anti-grappling methods come from?  I'd wager you already think you know?  That's why your asking me.
It's simple WT philosophy and techniques. Same as when your standing, chi sau with the legs as well as your arms.  Watch the video.  Ask a question about the technique, fine and good.
You want to know about the origions of anti-grappling ask Sifu Emin.  He's hubbie teacher, I've never met him, wouldn't know the origins.  Never thought to ask, it seems pretty obvious to me where it comes from.  WT concepts and theories methods of fighting. period.

I can understand other WC/WT students may not want to learn this stuff because of the politics linked to Sifu Emin, but that's no reason to leave a BIG hole in your WC/WT defense to the point you have to cross train in a totally different and irrevelant art to the style your studying.  ack!
The stuff works. I've yet to see it NOT work.  
Your the fellows that have already made up your minds.  I don't hear people saying, "hey, yea, I tried that stuff.  I trained it for awhile." or " yeah, I sparred with a guy that knows anti-grappling".  Not hearing that.  Just hearing people avoid conversation on the practicality of the techniques and questions about how does it work.
you want to debate semantics and such fine.  I've just been trying to share with other chunners a viable alternative to BJJ, one that is more effecient and true to their art.
But, that's the problem with the art.  BJJ is stronger than the Wing Chun community because they are uniformed and united in their style, the techniques, grading, and such in a way WT/WC will NEVER be because people can't let go the old "my kung fu is better than yours", and "my master is better than yours" mentality.
it's a ground fighting system that works created by a master that knows what he's doing.


----------



## jarrod

opcorn:


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> What?  What is his "pedigree" in Wing Chun? How is he an "expert" on wing chun?  When did this happen?  If you want to swallow a clever marketing ploy to get folks to cross-train into BJJ then that's one thing.  But, BJJ techniques and "concepts" have nothing to do with WT/WC concepts.  Show me how the 5 principles of WC/WT fit with BJJ technique and concepts.
> 
> And why would the physical attributes of a Wing Chun student or practitioner have anything to do with their "need" to compensate for these "short comings" with BJJ?  Don't tell me the same old stuff about how BJJ is designed for smaller people defending against larger opponents.  I totally disagree from experience and being a smaller person.  It does not work on larger opponents.  Sigh.
> I see here the death of Wing Chun espectially in America.  If WC/WT practitioners and teachers alike are supplementing their wing chun with BJJ instead of fully teaching Wing Chun this is a crying shame.  And a sham.
> But, each to whatever crutch needed.  You don't believe in the art, fine.  I can't change folk's minds in this, ya'll have already decided this is what you want to do.



You missed it completely.  Here is a link to a video of one of the seminars I am refferencing with Sam Kwok, disciple of Ip Ching and Ip Chun....Ip Man's sons.  He also agrees on this assessment, and seeing his Wing Chun pedigree, who am I to argue with that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3jJ-lb7N8A&feature=related

More on Sam Kwok from Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Kwok

So, here we have Sam Kwok, a Wing Chun master with undisputable pedigree as to if he learned the "real" Wing Chun and Carlson Gracie Jr., from the family that birthed Brazillian Jiujitsu and proved its worth in many bare knuckle no holds barred and Vale Tudo matches (read: hardly any rules at all, if any...the less restricted and more brutal precursor to MMA).  To me, and I am speaking solely on my own behalf here not others, this is quite reputable and not just marketing.  Sam Kwok and Carlson Gracie Jr. trained together and were good friends.  If these guys, with all of their martial wisdom and experience come to the conclusion that BJJ and Wing Chun work well together, I think it is safe for me to say there is some meat on the bone to chew there.  Some may agree, you may not, but I will take their word for it and have a looksey at it. LOL


----------



## Hand Sword

All of this bickering is pointless! If you want to know how to beat a wrestler go right to the ultimate pro for an answer! I'm sure Vince McMahon or one of his writers could write up a script where you come out the winner! (For a small fee of course) Both sides will get their licks in, some foreign objects, Steel cage, etc.. It would be dynamic!


----------



## Si-Je

Painful to watch that video.  Looks like their enjoying the marketing benefits. lol!  money money money, money!

I like how he demonstrates how hard it is to take someone down when their in WC stance, and then goes ahead and condones teaching BJJ to his students.
Instead of focusing on the art, let just forget that and go ahead and cross train something else.

So, since these masters want to cohoot together to make more money, and their very knowledgable in their respective arts, I should just jump up and conform too.  Hey, everyone's doing it!  I should too! lol!
Not my style.  Ya'll train your BJJ, enjoy. lol!  Wondering why this is on a Wing Chun thread to begin with.  Here, let me go to the BJJ board and start talking about how WC is so awesome and that all BJJ people just NEED to learn WC for the striking (since their striking is so pittaful lol!)
I'm sure I'd get run right off that board, but I guess folks can do that here on the WC/WT threads.  And I should just agree with ya.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Painful to watch that video. Looks like their enjoying the marketing benefits. lol! money money money, money!


 
Likewise, one could say it was painful to watch Emin do antigrappling against someone who a) isn't a grappler or b) isn't trying. 



> I like how he demonstrates how hard it is to take someone down when their in WC stance, and then goes ahead and condones teaching BJJ to his students.
> Instead of focusing on the art, let just forget that and go ahead and cross train something else.


 
Actually, it shows 2 people who are open minded to training other things.  



> So, since these masters want to cohoot together to make more money, and their very knowledgable in their respective arts, I should just jump up and conform too. Hey, everyone's doing it! I should too! lol!
> Not my style. Ya'll train your BJJ, enjoy. lol! Wondering why this is on a Wing Chun thread to begin with. Here, let me go to the BJJ board and start talking about how WC is so awesome and that all BJJ people just NEED to learn WC for the striking (since their striking is so pittaful lol!)
> I'm sure I'd get run right off that board, but I guess folks can do that here on the WC/WT threads. And I should just agree with ya.


 
Actually, anyone is free to post in any section they would like.  If you would like to go to the MMA/BJJ section on this forum, that is fine.  Of course, and I'm speaking for myself, but I've said in the past, that BJJ does seem to be lacking in the striking area.  That should be evident from watching any of Royce Gracies fights.  

You've made it very clear that you're set in your ways.  I doubt anyone will change your mind.  Sad actually, because there is so much out there, but thats ok, you keep doing what you're doing.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> oh my god, dude I've DONE this. I've "cross referenced" ideas with many people that grapple for the past two years. I've stated this over and over again, why do you refuse to remember it? We had a 10 year BJJ teacher and teacher of JKD sparr hubbie repeatedly, couldn't get him to the ground. Sure, I could spar with him, but instead I sparred more with his students. I worked with him on ground fighting sure, but he couldn't submit me either on the ground. He couldn't even get Hubbie ON the ground! We all became friends and they'd come over and spar like everyother saturday for months. We've been teaching together for the past 4 years, every MMA, grappler, BJJ had nosed student has come into our classes and wanted to work on ground fighting right away. Hubbie obligizes. I do too at times, but I'm busy running the school, taking care of the kiddo lately. All "matches" have been friendly and fun, but I'm about to be done with that.


 
Umm...ok



> Why do you ask me where the WT anti-grappling methods come from? I'd wager you already think you know? That's why your asking me.
> It's simple WT philosophy and techniques. Same as when your standing, chi sau with the legs as well as your arms. Watch the video. Ask a question about the technique, fine and good.
> You want to know about the origions of anti-grappling ask Sifu Emin. He's hubbie teacher, I've never met him, wouldn't know the origins. Never thought to ask, it seems pretty obvious to me where it comes from. WT concepts and theories methods of fighting. period.


 
Well, you can assume whatever you'd like.  I asked a simple question.  I guess I'm not getting an answer.  



> I can understand other WC/WT students may not want to learn this stuff because of the politics linked to Sifu Emin, but that's no reason to leave a BIG hole in your WC/WT defense to the point you have to cross train in a totally different and irrevelant art to the style your studying. ack!
> The stuff works. I've yet to see it NOT work.
> Your the fellows that have already made up your minds. I don't hear people saying, "hey, yea, I tried that stuff. I trained it for awhile." or " yeah, I sparred with a guy that knows anti-grappling". Not hearing that. Just hearing people avoid conversation on the practicality of the techniques and questions about how does it work.
> you want to debate semantics and such fine. I've just been trying to share with other chunners a viable alternative to BJJ, one that is more effecient and true to their art.
> But, that's the problem with the art. BJJ is stronger than the Wing Chun community because they are uniformed and united in their style, the techniques, grading, and such in a way WT/WC will NEVER be because people can't let go the old "my kung fu is better than yours", and "my master is better than yours" mentality.
> it's a ground fighting system that works created by a master that knows what he's doing.


 
Alrighty then.


----------



## Hand Sword

OK since the sides aren't quite won over yet..to go along with my last post here (and shame on me for forgetting) We can add the WWE Divas too! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (or male hunk for you Si-Je!)


----------



## GBlues

Si-Je said:


> Painful to watch that video. Looks like their enjoying the marketing benefits. lol! money money money, money!
> 
> I like how he demonstrates how hard it is to take someone down when their in WC stance, and then goes ahead and condones teaching BJJ to his students.
> Instead of focusing on the art, let just forget that and go ahead and cross train something else.
> 
> So, since these masters want to cohoot together to make more money, and their very knowledgable in their respective arts, I should just jump up and conform too. Hey, everyone's doing it! I should too! lol!
> Not my style. Ya'll train your BJJ, enjoy. lol! Wondering why this is on a Wing Chun thread to begin with. Here, let me go to the BJJ board and start talking about how WC is so awesome and that all BJJ people just NEED to learn WC for the striking (since their striking is so pittaful lol!)
> I'm sure I'd get run right off that board, but I guess folks can do that here on the WC/WT threads. And I should just agree with ya.


 
Here's the thing whether right or wrong, people will base there opinions on things they have seen, heard, or felt. Most of us have seen wc/wt practioners brag about how great there art is in countering grapplers. This being done JUST before a match in the UFC. What happens? THe wc/wt guy gets taken down to the ground and stomped. That is what happened the few times I have seen that particular style in action in the octagon. Now that is not to say that there aren't techniques in wc/wt that can and do deal with that aspect of combat. What it does say, is that those particular practioners were either mislead, or were not taught what you and your husband teach. Or perhaps you a have learned a hybrid form of wc/wt, not knowing it. It could happen. Now you are the one that got this whole tangent going on the verasity of wc/wt versus bjj, or jjj, or any other grappling art. No one is to blame but you. If you rember the first question asked, by the person who started this thread, it was not, "Hey, is wc/wt better for grappling than bjj?" He did not ask that question. He asked, " How do you defeat a wrestler, when your not one?, ( paraphrasing)" He got many different responses some were, " You should consider cross training in some grappling" Yet it wasn't what he was looking for. It was how do you defeat a wrestler while not being one, in other words how does a striker defeat a grappler. YOU, are the one that came on here and said, " YOu don't need bjj, all you need is your wc/wt, don't worry about that other stuff it's worthless." Basically that is what you said, I'm not going to go back through the whole thread to make sure that I get the quote right. That is what you said. YOU got this started. 

No one has all of the answers. You know it's like a guy asked about a sucker punch in another thread, one of the responses was, "Block it", yet that kind of defeats the purpose of a sucker punch. By definition you don't see it coming until it's too late, and there fore get punched. THat's why it's called a sucker punch. You just got punched by a sucker.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




The same is true with a striker. It is very feasible, to defeat a grappler with only stand up attacks, but you need room. Personally I don't care what anybody says, if a grappler grabs you, and he's good, it's his world, and you'd better be comfortable there, or at least know how to tread water, or your going to drowned. Now just imagine, all the things that you can do with wc/wt:shrug: against a grappler. YOu then add his own tricks to your arsenal how much easier will it be to defeat him, using wc/wt plus his own skills against him. YOu know what he's going to do before he does it. And no sensitivity training is not good enough. Grapplers have sensitivity training to, just in a different way. It's been ingrained in them for the purpose of grappling and nothing else. THe same with any striking art, your sensitivity is ingrained for striking, and facing stiking opponents, and that's it! If you are a purist that is what it is for. The adding is not to take away from your primary art, it is for giving you an otherwise unknown edge, against your opponent. You yourself are cross training now. Your original art was jujitsu, you have said so yourself. THen you switched to wc. Why? Was your jujitsu lacking in something? Probably for you it was. What about your wc, what if it fails you one day? Or you feel that it did? Are you going to then start saying that people should only study boxing? Because wc is worthless? No, because your jujitsu, and wc, have added to your core knowledge of what you can do, and what your oppenent is most likely to do. It's chess. YOu have to plan 5 moves in advance or your just going tit for tat. It goes nowhere. Do you practice shooting in on people to take them to the ground? If not why? What if you are facing another wc practioner and neither can gain an edge? Then what? YOu going to try and take him to the ground having never done a shoot? COuld be dangerous. You've never trained it. This is what these people mean. THey are taking Musashi's advice to heart. His advice was this.
"Know yourself and not your enemy you will win half of your confrontations. Know your enemy and not know yourself, you will win half of your confrontations. KNOW your enemy and KNOW yourself and in a hundred battles you need not fear a loss." Very valuable words from a great martial artist. WHo unlike most practioners today actually fought to the death. He died an old man, of natural causes.There is something to be said for that. THe advice these people gave was heartfelt, and to the best of there knowledge. Just as yours is, but for some reason you are like a baby that holds onto it's mother for comfort when the strong wind blows. You refuse to open your eyes for fear that the fear will be a reality. Your jujitsu failed you somewheres or you feel that it did, and so now you have wc, and so you push it on other people because your heart is in the right place, but your knowledge may be lacking when it comes to true combat. My father feels the same way about grappling as your husband, he thinks it's worthless, but this is not true. It has it's merits, just as wc/wt, or kenpo, or kung-fu, or judo or any other art does. To forsake your previous training for a percieved inadequacy is like trading wives everytime you have to clean a dish. It would be pointless. Instead you focus on the strong points and learn to deal, ( protect) the weak points. I'm going to cut this off here because it's getting long winded and I believe that I made my point. Let's get back please to how to defeat a wrestler when you are a striker. Perhaps some specific techniques that you and the other posters have found work for you. :asian:


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> Likewise, one could say it was painful to watch Emin do antigrappling against someone who a) isn't a grappler or b) isn't trying.


 
That was an instructional seminar.  The BJJ video posted by someone stating that BJJ is designed for smaller people to be able to fight against a big person, sent a video of a guy doing BJJ on a skinny tiny boy.  Sure he rolled him over afterward, but he was just as "compliant" as Emin's partner in his video.  

Your throwing double standards here.  BJJ guys can have an instructional video on BJJ but when Emin does it it's weak?  Plus, his demo partner was a long time in ju-jitsu and judo, he states that earlier in one of the other 6 parts to that video set.

And how hard would you really try if you knew you were going to get a knee or a foot in the face?  You learn really quick that the harder you go in against WC/WT the harder you get hit, that's why we train to be relaxed and flow.  This is done standing or on the ground.


[/quote]Actually, it shows 2 people who are open minded to training other things. [/quote]

I've stated many times on here the many other arts I have trained.  Sure, it's fun, I've been training in one art or another since I was 10 years old.  I'm not "new".  lol!
Or "closed minded" to training other arts, but this does seriously affect a wing chun fighter in usually a negative way.  Unless they have a good 3-5 years in WT/WC first, or have come from different arts.  Ever hear to old addage, "you can't serve two masters?" Do one then the other, to do them at the same time will hurt your training.



MJS said:


> Actually, anyone is free to post in any section they would like. If you would like to go to the MMA/BJJ section on this forum, that is fine. Of course, and I'm speaking for myself, but I've said in the past, that BJJ does seem to be lacking in the striking area. That should be evident from watching any of Royce Gracies fights.
> 
> You've made it very clear that you're set in your ways. I doubt anyone will change your mind. Sad actually, because there is so much out there, but thats ok, you keep doing what you're doing.


 
Oh sure, I'll just go to the BJJ/MMA section and "pick a fight" lol!  That would be fun, now you mention it.  But, it's late and I don't really care what they think of WC/WT.  It's other wing chunners thoughts of WC/WT that concerns me.  Or actually, I'm finding really doesn't concern me at all, it makes me sad for them to cross-train like this and water down their training, but it really doesn't have anything to do with me personally at all.  I should stop taking it so personal.  Just love this art and hate to see it go down like this.

I guess hubbie will have to be my kight in shinning armor! lol!


----------



## Si-Je

Seriously GBlues? Your talking about VT guy that went in the ring? I didn't see a lick of anything resembling WT/WC/VT, don't even know where he learned that stuff or if he was even a real student of wing chun.
Sure, I'll just say I'm a kempo master and go in the octogon people will believe me.

And no, you don't need BJJ.  I didn't start this thread.  This thread was started to discuss techniques for beating a wrestler/bjj/grappler.  I've stated some very good techniques, and people just jump on the band wagon that you've JUST GOT TO USE BJJ!  I disagree.  Simple.


----------



## Hand Sword

Now that would be quite an outfit for the solutions I gave to the question! The promo would be awesome! A knight in armor vs. some cavemen or something! Awesome! "Whatcha ya gonna do wingchunner when these pythons run wild ova youuuuu! Grrr!"


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> That was an instructional seminar.


 
I figured that by all of the people there.   Of course, nothing says that after a slow-mo demo, the pace couldn't have been picked up.  Kinda like when I teach a tech. in class.  I do it slow, so as to explain whats going on.  Then I have the person really throw a strike so it can be seen in real time. 




> The BJJ video posted by someone stating that BJJ is designed for smaller people to be able to fight against a big person, sent a video of a guy doing BJJ on a skinny tiny boy. Sure he rolled him over afterward, but he was just as "compliant" as Emin's partner in his video.


 
Sorry, not familiar with the video you are speaking of.



> Your throwing double standards here. BJJ guys can have an instructional video on BJJ but when Emin does it it's weak? Plus, his demo partner was a long time in ju-jitsu and judo, he states that earlier in one of the other 6 parts to that video set.


 
Double standards?  LOL!  Ok.  I think you're missing the point.  See my above post regarding doing things slow then fast.



> And how hard would you really try if you knew you were going to get a knee or a foot in the face? You learn really quick that the harder you go in against WC/WT the harder you get hit, that's why we train to be relaxed and flow. This is done standing or on the ground.


 
See above.




> Actually, it shows 2 people who are open minded to training other things.
> 
> I've stated many times on here the many other arts I have trained. Sure, it's fun, I've been training in one art or another since I was 10 years old. I'm not "new". lol!
> Or "closed minded" to training other arts, but this does seriously affect a wing chun fighter in usually a negative way. Unless they have a good 3-5 years in WT/WC first, or have come from different arts. Ever hear to old addage, "you can't serve two masters?" Do one then the other, to do them at the same time will hurt your training.


 
And I am sure you can find where I've said many times, that anyone who crosstrains should have a base art first, and THEN if they want to look at something else, to do it.  I try to avoid suggesting a newbie begin 2 arts at the same time.  





> Oh sure, I'll just go to the BJJ/MMA section and "pick a fight" lol! That would be fun, now you mention it. But, it's late and I don't really care what they think of WC/WT. It's other wing chunners thoughts of WC/WT that concerns me. Or actually, I'm finding really doesn't concern me at all, it makes me sad for them to cross-train like this and water down their training, but it really doesn't have anything to do with me personally at all. I should stop taking it so personal. Just love this art and hate to see it go down like this.
> 
> I guess hubbie will have to be my kight in shinning armor! lol!


 
Well, yeah, its pretty obvious that you're passionate about the art.  I think its apparent to everyone in this thread.  I've been doing Kenpo for over 20yrs, so sure, you could say that I'm passionate about that.  However, in addition to fully enjoying the other arts I train in, one of the main things it does, is make my Kenpo that much better.


----------



## Hand Sword

Great! But can you Wrassle??????


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Lets go to bjj boards an promote Wing Chun...great idea....




Si-Je said:


> Painful to watch that video. Looks like their enjoying the marketing benefits. lol! money money money, money!
> 
> I like how he demonstrates how hard it is to take someone down when their in WC stance, and then goes ahead and condones teaching BJJ to his students.
> Instead of focusing on the art, let just forget that and go ahead and cross train something else.
> 
> So, since these masters want to cohoot together to make more money, and their very knowledgable in their respective arts, I should just jump up and conform too. Hey, everyone's doing it! I should too! lol!
> Not my style. Ya'll train your BJJ, enjoy. lol! Wondering why this is on a Wing Chun thread to begin with. Here, let me go to the BJJ board and start talking about how WC is so awesome and that all BJJ people just NEED to learn WC for the striking (since their striking is so pittaful lol!)
> I'm sure I'd get run right off that board, but I guess folks can do that here on the WC/WT threads. And I should just agree with ya.


----------



## mook jong man

There are a lot of variables about the way he can come in , assuming that he is coming in about waist height with his head to one side and both arms are grabbing for the waist . 

I can take a small step back to absorb his forward energy or just let one foot slide back in a side step type motion.

 At the same time I use a Chit Sau to his near arm to stop the grab ( Don't let him  complete the grip ) and if his head is down I bring a Fook Sau down on the base of his skull with a cup shaped hand with great force and if he is still coming forward I push down on his head then direct his face into the concrete .

 If his head is up I can use a Chit Sau to the side of his neck or a elbow strike to his collarbone . After any of these I would follow up with knee strikes to the face if need be. If he comes down extremely low then I will try to move my legs back out of his range and match his level by widening my base into a type of low horse stance and try to apply something from there.

 As I said there are a lot of variables , what if he comes from the back or the side etc. You have to have some basic knowledge on the ground and in my opinion it doesn't matter what the ground art is .

 It  is more important that you can be accustomed to being on the ground and not freak out from the sensory overload of having your chest compressed so you can't breathe properly , of having the opponent so close that your vision is obscured , and the anaerobic capacity that is needed on the ground all these things can overwhelm you if you have no experience of it.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Question about Wrestling...why do you wrestle?

Do you believe in 90% of street fights will go to ground?

If you have multiple attackers do you want to end up shooting for one of their legs and taking them to the ground?

*Gblues I believe you said*: 





> My father feels the same way about grappling as your husband, he thinks it's worthless


 
Can you explain why this is?

*Poor Si-Je* Also Several of you guys are beating up on Si-Je pretty badly...I mean come on give the lady a break...Women are more emotional than males...I personally don't care who disagrees with me...I aim to be disagreeable...lol...ha ha...But she had some valid post earlier...On how to defeat a grappler...

*Si-Je had some good points*:



> Training "with" a good grappler is a good thing. Going to the classes and training exclusively in that style is another thing altogether.
> 
> We went to a BJJ seminar a couple of years back and took one of our students. He had one arm. Throughout the entire seminar we had to show him WT/WC anti-grappling techniques because the BJJ and wrestling techniques they were teaching all required two hands/arms.
> If you learn to play/fight by those rules, you will be limited to those very grappling "rules" and techniques.
> 
> We workout with wrestlers, grapplers, etc, and it's really fun. But, I don't study these techniques and try to utilize them on an opponent. Why would I?
> 
> Why use up all that effort and energy to try to force a technique to work for me against giagantic hubbie when WC concepts save my skin everytime? Without the Pain and strain of using brute strength in disguise as leverage?
> 
> Over three years of Ju-Jitsu when I was a teenager, and two years of weight training taught me what it truely takes to make those techniques work when you truely need them. I'm a female, I can gain muscle mass, lift weights and all that jazz, but so can a man, and his muscle mass is just bigger/more. Better to stick to WC concepts and use his strength, speed, inertia, and force against him. Re-direction, deflection. And a wee bit of chi helps too. lol!


 

*Si-Je again*


> Using only WC/WT concepts should suffice.
> Rooting in stance is very important and extremely under appreciated.
> re-direction/pivot of the opponents force and inertia using WC concepts.
> The good old "sprawl" for closer shoots.
> 
> of course, attack and defense being the cause and result of the other, speed in response to opponents energy, follow up in striking (and kicking) immediately is cruitial to any WC/WT defense.
> 
> And my favorite, the anti-grappling techniques utilized in WT although others may give it little credit, I've seen it in action against grapplers/wrestlers/JKD/BJJ etc. and executed successfully many times. Even experimented with my own personal experiences and training.
> I still think that training in an opponent's art/style will only enslave you to their way of fighting, thinking, and stratagy. Cross training can be useful and even fun, but focus on mastery and practical application of your art would be more useful in a fight.


 

*Famous Si-Je Qoute*:





> I am very small, short, small boned, lean frame, etc. Using this type of strategy on the ground against someone who is twice my weight (littarly) will not help me in truth, and I have injured myself resisting and using force on force with these "leveraged" techniques against large people.
> 
> The best strategy is to get the grappler off you asap, get yourself in position to strike and repeatedly following up until they are done. Change their balance, motion, and body position so they cannot get set to lock out on you, or become positioned for a strong hold.
> Negate their structure, balance, and force re-directing them into a position that is more advantageous for you.
> 
> I love wrestling, I love ju-jitsu! Ground fighting was sooooo fun! But, WC/WT concepts utilized against a grappler and in ground fighting is just more effecient to me than trying to return the same energy that a stronger, bigger attacker throws at me.
> 
> I know that grappling and BJJ have evolved and have been tested against alot of styles in the past and have done very well against alot of traditional martial arts; but that doesn't sway my understanding of WC's effectiveness, practicality, and usefulness in using against a grappler of any sort.


 
So in reality she had some great answers in the beginning...I think one you guys must have set her off or something...Lets reconcile and get back on point...Lets digress back to topic if you don't mind...Anyway...She loves Groundfighting but she hates BJJ...so lets let by gones be by gones...Personally I think any art someone takes time and dedication to practice diligently will be a great art for that person...Even if you gave a person Six Techiques to practice every day for Ten years eight hours a day they will be hard to beat. If they practice it diligently for instance.

Techinques
1.Front Kick
2.Side Kick
3.Front punches
4.Hook Punches
5.Throws
6.Round House kick

These seven techniques would be very powerful over ten years...Even with out forms and all the knowledge...they would grow and become powerful. and people would a hard time defeating them...why because they practice every day for eight hours a day there front kick side kick round house hook throw and front punches.

I personally see nothing wrong with ground fighting are wrestling. I personally just don't like watching it. It sorta of bores me. I love to see fist and feet flying an blocks and bobing and weaving and evasive manuvenurs going. 

*So let me redirect question:*

_How can you defeat a wrestler while being a Wing Chun purist with out using Wrestling techniques and still maintian Wing Chun principals, Structure and Flow?_


----------



## GBlues

Si-Je said:


> Seriously GBlues? Your talking about VT guy that went in the ring? I didn't see a lick of anything resembling WT/WC/VT, don't even know where he learned that stuff or if he was even a real student of wing chun.
> Sure, I'll just say I'm a kempo master and go in the octogon people will believe me.
> 
> And no, you don't need BJJ. I didn't start this thread. This thread was started to discuss techniques for beating a wrestler/bjj/grappler. I've stated some very good techniques, and people just jump on the band wagon that you've JUST GOT TO USE BJJ! I disagree. Simple.


 
Yes you have made some very good statements about techniques. My humblest apologies. Now back to the topic, at hand.


----------



## GBlues

*Gblues I believe you said*: 
Quote:
My father feels the same way about grappling as your husband, he thinks it's worthless 
Can you explain why this is?


Yeah, my pops believe it takes to long to defeat you opponent in a grappling situation. The other problem is if your small like me (I'm 5'3" tall), a bigger opponent has the upper hand. Generally speaking they are going to be stonger, and weigh more. I have been in very few confrontations with guys my size. They are usually much bigger, (they just like me I guess ), and stronger. So to get into a wrestling match with a guy who is 6'1" tall, is not a good idea for me, no matter how good my techniques. Cause' it's probably going to go 45 minutes or longer, assuming I can hold him off that long. I don't pride myself on how long I can last, I pride myself on how fast it was ended. If you have good targeting, you can end a fight with strikes very quickly. In the converse if you have a good ground game it is possible to end it very quickly there, also. Just my fathers experience tells him that a going to the ground is a bad thing. I would agree. If I can stay on my feet I much prefer it, however, I have met guys that are alot faster than me, and I don't like getting my teeth knocked out. The safest place in a tornado is in the eye. So if I feel like I'm really getting the worst of the deal, I will try to take it to the ground, even with my limited knowledge of grappling, I feel confident enough, that the average joe, doesn't know as much as I do, and I have a chance there.

My dad's opinion on the matter of grappling is basically this. If a guy wants to roll around on the ground, when I tear his eyeballs out that's where he'll be. Right where he wants to be rolling around on the ground. Screaming about how he aint got eyes anymore. Gross, gory, definitely excessive force, but you get the point. His opinion is if a fight goes longer than two minutes your in trouble. THe longer it goes the more chance he has to hurt you. Two minutes is a long time, and you will start getting tired after that. Unless your a runner who has good endurance, but still you will, start getting tired at some point. Rolling around on the ground just takes to long, on average. 

Now look at it from another angle. YOur in a confrontation, you punch a guy in the face, and bloody his nose. He shoots and you can't stop him. With the onset of AIDS in our day and age, it's NOT a good idea to take the chance on getting there blood in your mouth. It goes to the ground there is a good chance, some of his blood may get in your mouth. If it does, and he happens to pass along that particular disease, you may have beat him to bloody pulp, but he wins cause your going to die, and it ain't gonna' be pretty. All of those reasons are why my dad thinks grappling is worthless. He just has the opinion that striking is the best, it ends the fight faster, when used properly, and saves alot of wear and tear on your body, in a real confrontation. Anyways I hope that I answered your question.:asian:


----------



## Si-Je

Gblues, you'r pop's has it right.  He's answered that question for you in the same or similar manner I would have.

As for getting "overemotional" I hope you guys had fun poking at Si-Je, lol!
But, realize taking BJJ doesn't make your "kempo" better, it just is another art you take other than kempo.  Now, Tai Chi could make your wing chun better as an example.  
But the two are so different they do conflict, that's what I've been trying to say.(ex. kempo and BJJ)
Aiki Ju-Jitsu is has a strong striking technique to it too, that might be more akin to kempo, and they do more technique standing.  Just an example.

I've got lots of posts on here about how to defeate a wrestler with pure WC/WT which was the origional post.  The BJJ got added by other folks that were missing the point of the post.  That believe that WC/WT won't work against a wrestler or grappler.   I so strongly disagree, I'm seriously re-considering my origional withdrawl from competition.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> As for getting "overemotional" I hope you guys had fun poking at Si-Je, lol!
> But, realize taking BJJ doesn't make your "kempo" better, it just is another art you take other than kempo. Now, Tai Chi could make your wing chun better as an example.
> But the two are so different they do conflict, that's what I've been trying to say.(ex. kempo and BJJ)
> Aiki Ju-Jitsu is has a strong striking technique to it too, that might be more akin to kempo, and they do more technique standing. Just an example.


 
Sorry, you're wrong.  That is YOUR assumption.  You would be surprised as to how easy I can go from a Kenpo tech., into a lock from Arnis, to a takedown and finish with a sub. from BJJ.  The 3 blend very well together.  You seem to think that its hard to transition from one to the next...it isn't.  

Additionally, there are a number of takedown defenses in Kenpo.  I like to test those defenses against a grappler...someone who really knows how to shoot in, not do some half assed attempt.  By understanding how the grappler operates, I can adapt my Kenpo tech. to that.  I'm not changing my tech., I'm simply making an adjustment, keeping the Kenpo principles, and completing the move.  Now, you may be thinking, "Well, sure you're changing your Kenpo."  No, I'm not, and the difference is this....if I was going to change the Kenpo tech., I'd change it to a sprawl.  However, I'm still doing the base Kenpo tech.  If someone were to look at the tech., they'd still see Kenpo.  Small, subtle adjustments is all I'm doing.  



> I've got lots of posts on here about how to defeate a wrestler with pure WC/WT which was the origional post. The BJJ got added by other folks that were missing the point of the post. That believe that WC/WT won't work against a wrestler or grappler. I so strongly disagree, I'm seriously re-considering my origional withdrawl from competition.


 
Hmm...so you're saying that nobody from outside WC can comment?  Seeing that WC is not a grappling art, I suggested BJJ, as well as other grappling arts, so that the WC person can better understand how a grappler operates.  Of course, thats met with resistance by those, you being one of them, who seem to think that its a complete ultimate art.  As I've said, all arts are complete to a point.  However, it would not hurt to look at an art that specializes in something, to see how they work.  BJJ has not hurt my Kenpo and neither has Arnis.  

Let me use another RL example that you may understand.  You can go to a doctor with a problem.  You can tell them all about it, and they might be able to suggest something.  Of course, there're those times when they send you to a specialist...someone who specializes in a certain area, to continue to help with your problem.  I'd be willing to bet that you would tell your doc. that he should be able to help you, that you don't NEED a specialist, because he is already a doc and should be able to solve any problem.  Sorry, it doesn't always work that way.

Good luck with your training.


----------



## Si-Je

Okay guys, I get hyper and am not clear sometimes.  BJJ has been beaten in the ring several times, it is totally possible to defeat a takedown with striking concepts, that's my main point.  It is possible to use 100% wing chun to defend against a wrestler/BJJ whatever strickly ground fighting style.  It has been done numerous times.
Yes, people have been tapped out.

To break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure.  (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".
So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.  
BUT..
That larger opponent has other limbs, moving, punching, kicking, elbowing limbs to deal with while you concentrate all your time and effort on one joint.  See?

I started adapting WT/WC concepts to the JJJ I used to know so well, just to find out it stopped being JJJ technique.  WT/WC has joint locks too, but they are done very differently.  They are usually done with only one hand or arm on the joint, with no "lock out" on the arm or wrist.  This leaves your other hand free to deflect or strike as needed.  This doesn't force the joint lock, and if the lock is lost you continue chainpunching or flow into whatever is needed to continue to attack the opponent.
So, what I thought was using JJJ with WC/WT concepts BECAME wing chun.
To commit your entire body into a joint lock and force the submission does require more strength than is needed to execute a joint lock.  When I wrap my whole body around a guys arm, thus clinging to him while he picks me up off the ground and slams me on my back, neck or head is just not effecient!  And it's painful, and to me silly.  When I can aquire joint locks in other fashions that are not so harmful and dangerous to my small frame.

No, I don't like BJJ, we all know that, because I see it as 
largely and grossly inefficient.  It takes too long to get into position for most of those techniques, too much effort, too much energy spent on one movement, too much commitment of the entire body for too long on one set technique.

I cringe to imagine a small woman doing these techniques on a large man on the concrete in the street, with nails, glass, wood, trash, and oil, etc... The road rash and body slames required to fall to the ground and execute these techniques I see as a horrible danger to anyone trying to use this in street or self-defense situations.  
Like i've said: can you do these techniques between two parked cars in the parking lot, on a staircase, in a narrow hallway, in a bus isle, INSIDE a parked car, in your bathroom (especially if it's as tiny as mine! lol!)  Wing Chun is designed for these situations specifically and these are your battle grounds in the real world, not some octogon, not some cage.  If one feels they NEED a "ground game" for the cage, great, use BJJ (I still wouldn't but that's me.  It seems specially designed for the ring and does well when you have lots of room to do it) But, think carefully and question if these techniques can be used in a real situation.  
Just your preference in training, depending on what your training for.  I'm always in a mindset of realistic self-defense and am not interested in sport fighting.  But, that is me.  And my opinions on practical technique IS heavilly biased due to my critical anyalyzing of technique that I see won't work in these situations.  
So, how is BJJ going to help your WC/WT in this light?
I hope this clarifies more of the mindset I am coming from, and why I get so "passionate" about self-defense and BJJ.


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> I was woundering if you guys had experience or advice on how to defeat a wrestler or grappler with using strickly Wing Chun techniques. Some people think you have to study BJJ or Greco Wrestling to be able to defeat a wrestler. But I was wounder if there are any Wing Chun Purist who know how to defeat a western wrestler using strickly Wing Chun tecnhiques and principals?


 
This is the entire point of this thread. Right here. Not asking how you would "mesh" other grappling styles in your WT/WC, but how would you use strickly Wing Chun against a wrestler.
I have been answering this question over and over, just to have people keep adding in that you've GOT to have a grappling style "meshed" into your art.
I disagree. 
Why people kept bringing up the BJJ and other grappling styles as a necesisity, I don't know. Maybe they just can't see what a WC/WT "purist" sees, that it is NOT needed. If you feel you need it, fine. I don't need it, thank you very much.
And Hubbie who trained with Master Gima in Okinawia in Kenpo Karate would be very interested to know that BJJ is needed to supplement that art for a wrestler by someone who seems to have rank in the art. And very disapointed. 
This post, I've not let him see yet (good thing he's at work lol!) I'd get an earfull and probably some more anti-grappling training! lol! (on second thought, yeah, I'm gonna show that post to him right away! thanks for the fuel for the "fire" so's I can get more spontaneous training! lol!)


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Well excelent points....Very interesting. Well let me asked you How can you use a strickly fighting Art with out transitioning to a Wrestling art. How can you defeat a wrestler with out using ground fighting or learning ground fighting?




MJS said:


> Sorry, you're wrong. That is YOUR assumption. You would be surprised as to how easy I can go from a Kenpo tech., into a lock from Arnis, to a takedown and finish with a sub. from BJJ. The 3 blend very well together. You seem to think that its hard to transition from one to the next...it isn't.
> 
> Additionally, there are a number of takedown defenses in Kenpo. I like to test those defenses against a grappler...someone who really knows how to shoot in, not do some half assed attempt. By understanding how the grappler operates, I can adapt my Kenpo tech. to that. I'm not changing my tech., I'm simply making an adjustment, keeping the Kenpo principles, and completing the move. Now, you may be thinking, "Well, sure you're changing your Kenpo." No, I'm not, and the difference is this....if I was going to change the Kenpo tech., I'd change it to a sprawl. However, I'm still doing the base Kenpo tech. If someone were to look at the tech., they'd still see Kenpo. Small, subtle adjustments is all I'm doing.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm...so you're saying that nobody from outside WC can comment? Seeing that WC is not a grappling art, I suggested BJJ, as well as other grappling arts, so that the WC person can better understand how a grappler operates. Of course, thats met with resistance by those, you being one of them, who seem to think that its a complete ultimate art. As I've said, all arts are complete to a point. However, it would not hurt to look at an art that specializes in something, to see how they work. BJJ has not hurt my Kenpo and neither has Arnis.
> 
> Let me use another RL example that you may understand. You can go to a doctor with a problem. You can tell them all about it, and they might be able to suggest something. Of course, there're those times when they send you to a specialist...someone who specializes in a certain area, to continue to help with your problem. I'd be willing to bet that you would tell your doc. that he should be able to help you, that you don't NEED a specialist, because he is already a doc and should be able to solve any problem. Sorry, it doesn't always work that way.
> 
> Good luck with your training.


----------



## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well excelent points....Very interesting. Well let me asked you How can you use a strickly fighting Art with out transitioning to a Wrestling art. How can you defeat a wrestler with out using ground fighting or learning ground fighting?


 
This is the reason I crosstrain.  I train BJJ so I can better understand how they operate.  Many people in Kenpo are sharing the same thoughts with Sije...they think that they can use Kenpo, in its pure form, without using any grappling concepts.  I take certain techs. from Kenpo and test them against a grapplers attack.  Will my pure Kenpo tech. work against someone who grapples, someone who knows how to shoot?  I adapt the BJJ defense into the Kenpo defense.  The tech is still Kenpo.  Again, if it wasn't, I'd simply use the sprawl, which is the common defense against a shoot.  I'm trying to use the Kenpo defense.  However, as I said, I will make subtle adjustments.

If my defense fails, and I do land on the ground, I will still feel confortable.  That is why I train BJJ.  So one minute I'm in Kenpo mode, the next I land on my rear, and switch to BJJ.

Don't misunderstand.  I don't like to advocate rolling on the ground, trying to look for a submission.  I want to get back up.  BJJ will provide me with the escape and the means to get back up. 

The same applies to my Arnis training.  There are knife drills in that art, that are not in Kenpo, so when I'm working my Kenpo knife defense, I'm more aware of the 'what if'.  If I need to transition to Arnis, its really a very simple process.


----------



## GBlues

Si-Je said:


> This is the entire point of this thread. Right here. Not asking how you would "mesh" other grappling styles in your WT/WC, but how would you use strickly Wing Chun against a wrestler.
> I have been answering this question over and over, just to have people keep adding in that you've GOT to have a grappling style "meshed" into your art.
> I disagree.
> Why people kept bringing up the BJJ and other grappling styles as a necesisity, I don't know. Maybe they just can't see what a WC/WT "purist" sees, that it is NOT needed. If you feel you need it, fine. I don't need it, thank you very much.
> And Hubbie who trained with Master Gima in Okinawia in Kenpo Karate would be very interested to know that BJJ is needed to supplement that art for a wrestler by someone who seems to have rank in the art. And very disapointed.
> This post, I've not let him see yet (good thing he's at work lol!) I'd get an earfull and probably some more anti-grappling training! lol! (on second thought, yeah, I'm gonna show that post to him right away! thanks for the fuel for the "fire" so's I can get more spontaneous training! lol!)


 
Hmm.....you absolutely do not need to take bjj or jjj to learn how to defeat a grappler or wrestler. But I would think it would be beneficial to practice your art against them. Most arts have a specialty, something they are known for or very good at. Of course when you think of these various arts there are things they are not known for. As an example Kenpo is not known for being a grappling art. It's known for it's very fast linear and circular, lightning fast hand strikes. Kenpo Karate is one of the faster striking arts, just the way it was designed. It's designed to end it. However, when I think of WC I think of very fast chain punching, trapping hands, elbows, knees etc... Close quarters fighting art. What both of these arts are not known for, ( at least from everything I have heard or read about, or even trained some in), is grappling. There just not known for it. Now they may have, elements but I woud imagine it would be more for stopping your opponent from ever taking you to the ground. I know my experience with Kenpo is don't let him take you to the ground. If he does, get out of that situation as fast as possible. 

Every art is designed for something different. Cultural experiences, or personal experiences of the individual. So if the bulk of a founders experience tells them that they will always, or almost always end the fight standing, why mess with the ground. I'm gonna end it before it ever gets there. Someone else's experience shows them they have gone to the ground 99% percent of the time, so they will develop a system of fighting that deals with that aspect only. He says, "I'm not gonna' focus on strikes because all of my experience says it's going to the ground so I'm taking it there first."

Striking and Grappling are two completely different ideologies. In those ideologies you have a whole slew of arts that are but aren't the two. Example Aikido, is not known for it's strikes. Most people will tell you that it doesn't even have strikes, but it does. Yet it is not a striking art, it is a grappling art. There strikes are distractory so that they can get the throw they want more easily. When you focus on only one thing, your going to get very good at that one thing, regardless of what it is. The downside, is that your are missing out on some other things. I think that is why most people in the martial arts world push cross-training so much. Because they themselves have focused on one thing so much that they see the holes and the gaps in there own training. Beyond that since the advent of the UFC every tom, dick,and harry thinks he knows how to grapple. The same with when the Bruce Lee movies became popular, everybody thought they knew how to kick, and punch, and block. But you don't until you take some kind of training. So when you focus on striking only, that is what you know, striking. When you only focus on grappling that is what you know, grappling, and so on and so forth. It will leave gaps but, you may be good enough to adapt if you train with other practioners from other styles. It will leave you more well rounded. 

Finally there are lots of videos on you tube of fights taking place in the street where both participants are rolling around on the ground. SO it is possible you could end up there, and be in that element. but since you train with other practitioners you probably have tested what you are trained in and know what you are capable of defending against and what your not. So.....enjoy the spontanous classes
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 LOL!


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Excellent but long...wow..Did you know Bruce Lee learn some Judo informallly from one the guys he made an instructer of Jun Fan Gung Fu?

Also in some of movies you will Bruce going to the ground as well...

But the thing Si-Je is saying...it takes a while for WC to be engrained in your mind...If you already a style that you are comfortable that you have practice for some years...then cross training one or two new styles will not be so bad....

I personally see her point...Because right now I am cross training Tai Chi and Bagua...Its very difficult...but this is just the beginning...It will take me awhile to catch up everyone else because I am taking everything in all at once...But I have a foundation in WC. So if I get in trouble I can fall back on the WC....Thats the benefit...Of having the WC engrained...So what is saying first get atleast three years of WC or BJJ under you belt first...Then cross train a new style with it...

If you passion is WC then go all out...study one...

If your passion is BJJ stick with that...

Its like learning a foriegn language...Can you learn Chinese and Arabic together. Are would you find yourself kinda blending the two different languages from time to time...Would it be easier to learn Arabic first for three to seven years then move on to adding Chinese.

So in other words one should practice one art an get a foundation then add another art later?

Do you think its easier to learn two arts at the same time or learn one first and add another later....





GBlues said:


> Hmm.....you absolutely do not need to take bjj or jjj to learn how to defeat a grappler or wrestler. But I would think it would be beneficial to practice your art against them. Most arts have a specialty, something they are known for or very good at. Of course when you think of these various arts there are things they are not known for. As an example Kenpo is not known for being a grappling art. It's known for it's very fast linear and circular, lightning fast hand strikes. Kenpo Karate is one of the faster striking arts, just the way it was designed. It's designed to end it. However, when I think of WC I think of very fast chain punching, trapping hands, elbows, knees etc... Close quarters fighting art. What both of these arts are not known for, ( at least from everything I have heard or read about, or even trained some in), is grappling. There just not known for it. Now they may have, elements but I woud imagine it would be more for stopping your opponent from ever taking you to the ground. I know my experience with Kenpo is don't let him take you to the ground. If he does, get out of that situation as fast as possible.
> 
> Every art is designed for something different. Cultural experiences, or personal experiences of the individual. So if the bulk of a founders experience tells them that they will always, or almost always end the fight standing, why mess with the ground. I'm gonna end it before it ever gets there. Someone else's experience shows them they have gone to the ground 99% percent of the time, so they will develop a system of fighting that deals with that aspect only. He says, "I'm not gonna' focus on strikes because all of my experience says it's going to the ground so I'm taking it there first."
> 
> Striking and Grappling are two completely different ideologies. In those ideologies you have a whole slew of arts that are but aren't the two. Example Aikido, is not known for it's strikes. Most people will tell you that it doesn't even have strikes, but it does. Yet it is not a striking art, it is a grappling art. There strikes are distractory so that they can get the throw they want more easily. When you focus on only one thing, your going to get very good at that one thing, regardless of what it is. The downside, is that your are missing out on some other things. I think that is why most people in the martial arts world push cross-training so much. Because they themselves have focused on one thing so much that they see the holes and the gaps in there own training. Beyond that since the advent of the UFC every tom, dick,and harry thinks he knows how to grapple. The same with when the Bruce Lee movies became popular, everybody thought they knew how to kick, and punch, and block. But you don't until you take some kind of training. So when you focus on striking only, that is what you know, striking. When you only focus on grappling that is what you know, grappling, and so on and so forth. It will leave gaps but, you may be good enough to adapt if you train with other practioners from other styles. It will leave you more well rounded.
> 
> Finally there are lots of videos on you tube of fights taking place in the street where both participants are rolling around on the ground. SO it is possible you could end up there, and be in that element. but since you train with other practitioners you probably have tested what you are trained in and know what you are capable of defending against and what your not. So.....enjoy the spontanous classes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL!


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## GBlues

Yoshiyahu said:


> Excellent but long...wow..Did you know Bruce Lee learn some Judo informallly from one the guys he made an instructer of Jun Fan Gung Fu?
> 
> Also in some of movies you will Bruce going to the ground as well...
> 
> But the thing Si-Je is saying...it takes a while for WC to be engrained in your mind...If you already a style that you are comfortable that you have practice for some years...then cross training one or two new styles will not be so bad....
> 
> I personally see her point...Because right now I am cross training Tai Chi and Bagua...Its very difficult...but this is just the beginning...It will take me awhile to catch up everyone else because I am taking everything in all at once...But I have a foundation in WC. So if I get in trouble I can fall back on the WC....Thats the benefit...Of having the WC engrained...So what is saying first get atleast three years of WC or BJJ under you belt first...Then cross train a new style with it...
> 
> If you passion is WC then go all out...study one...
> 
> If your passion is BJJ stick with that...
> 
> Its like learning a foriegn language...Can you learn Chinese and Arabic together. Are would you find yourself kinda blending the two different languages from time to time...Would it be easier to learn Arabic first for three to seven years then move on to adding Chinese.
> 
> So in other words one should practice one art an get a foundation then add another art later?
> 
> Do you think its easier to learn two arts at the same time or learn one first and add another later....


 
Learn one then add if you feel that you need to later. I wouldn't do two at the same time, until I had a firm foundation in one art. NO matter what that are is. LOL! I had a girlfriend once and her dad taught 5 different styles. Actually he taught one, it was the five different styles combined into one. If you could get your black belt in 5 years in each art, that's 25 years. However, if you learn 5 at the same time it will take 25 years to get proficient at even one of them. I personally think you should get really good at one, first. 5 years is a long time, you take two at the same time it will increase your learning time. Because you can not concentrate on the one. You now have to do two, so your looking at 10 years to become proficient at the both. Where as if you do one, and then concentrate on the second, and it compliments your first art, it actually should take you less time to become proficient with the 2nd, and 3rd, and 4th, and on, and on. Just my opinion.


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## MJS

GBlues said:


> Hmm.....you absolutely do not need to take bjj or jjj to learn how to defeat a grappler or wrestler. But I would think it would be beneficial to practice your art against them. Most arts have a specialty, something they are known for or very good at. Of course when you think of these various arts there are things they are not known for. As an example Kenpo is not known for being a grappling art. It's known for it's very fast linear and circular, lightning fast hand strikes. Kenpo Karate is one of the faster striking arts, just the way it was designed. It's designed to end it. However, when I think of WC I think of very fast chain punching, trapping hands, elbows, knees etc... Close quarters fighting art. What both of these arts are not known for, ( at least from everything I have heard or read about, or even trained some in), is grappling. There just not known for it. Now they may have, elements but I woud imagine it would be more for stopping your opponent from ever taking you to the ground. I know my experience with Kenpo is don't let him take you to the ground. If he does, get out of that situation as fast as possible.
> 
> Every art is designed for something different. Cultural experiences, or personal experiences of the individual. So if the bulk of a founders experience tells them that they will always, or almost always end the fight standing, why mess with the ground. I'm gonna end it before it ever gets there. Someone else's experience shows them they have gone to the ground 99% percent of the time, so they will develop a system of fighting that deals with that aspect only. He says, "I'm not gonna' focus on strikes because all of my experience says it's going to the ground so I'm taking it there first."
> 
> Striking and Grappling are two completely different ideologies. In those ideologies you have a whole slew of arts that are but aren't the two. Example Aikido, is not known for it's strikes. Most people will tell you that it doesn't even have strikes, but it does. Yet it is not a striking art, it is a grappling art. There strikes are distractory so that they can get the throw they want more easily. When you focus on only one thing, your going to get very good at that one thing, regardless of what it is. The downside, is that your are missing out on some other things. I think that is why most people in the martial arts world push cross-training so much. Because they themselves have focused on one thing so much that they see the holes and the gaps in there own training. Beyond that since the advent of the UFC every tom, dick,and harry thinks he knows how to grapple. The same with when the Bruce Lee movies became popular, everybody thought they knew how to kick, and punch, and block. But you don't until you take some kind of training. So when you focus on striking only, that is what you know, striking. When you only focus on grappling that is what you know, grappling, and so on and so forth. It will leave gaps but, you may be good enough to adapt if you train with other practioners from other styles. It will leave you more well rounded.
> 
> Finally there are lots of videos on you tube of fights taking place in the street where both participants are rolling around on the ground. SO it is possible you could end up there, and be in that element. but since you train with other practitioners you probably have tested what you are trained in and know what you are capable of defending against and what your not. So.....enjoy the spontanous classes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL!


 
Very well said.   When I first joined this forum, I was always running around in the Kenpo section, saying how that was the one thing that Kenpo lacked.  Man did I take heat for that. LOL.  I wasn't seeing it.  I had many back and forth debates, people telling me that it was MY Kenpo that was lacking, not Kenpo as a whole.  So, after talking with people, I went to experiment.  I had someone get me in the mount and I tried to apply Kenpo.  Sure, there were a few techs. where I could apply ideas, but what I was looking for was what you'd typically see in BJJ.  

Kenpo ground fighting is the dirty fighting that we hear about.  Dont look for those submissions, but just fight dirty to get back to your feet.  So, while I keep that line of thinking, I use the BJJ to aid the Kenpo.  Use the BJJ during the initial escape and finish with Kenpo on the ground.  

So, maybe it is MY Kenpo thats lacking.  Perhaps one of the Kenpo Seniors would have been able to just use Kenpo.  However, for me, instead of trying to apply a standup tech. to the ground, why not use a proven method of escape, and then finish with your base art?  Seems to work for me.  

Like I said, the arts that I train in all blend together very well.  The 3 have made me a more well rounded martial artist.


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## Yoshiyahu

Great point excellent I believe thats what we are all saying!


But can you share with us what are some of best tactics for defeating a wrestler while sticking to a standing art with out combining ground fighting...in other words...how do you defeat a wrestler while not playing his game?





GBlues said:


> Learn one then add if you feel that you need to later. I wouldn't do two at the same time, until I had a firm foundation in one art. NO matter what that are is. LOL! I had a girlfriend once and her dad taught 5 different styles. Actually he taught one, it was the five different styles combined into one. If you could get your black belt in 5 years in each art, that's 25 years. However, if you learn 5 at the same time it will take 25 years to get proficient at even one of them. I personally think you should get really good at one, first. 5 years is a long time, you take two at the same time it will increase your learning time. Because you can not concentrate on the one. You now have to do two, so your looking at 10 years to become proficient at the both. Where as if you do one, and then concentrate on the second, and it compliments your first art, it actually should take you less time to become proficient with the 2nd, and 3rd, and 4th, and on, and on. Just my opinion.


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## Steve

Yoshiyahu said:


> Great point excellent I believe thats what we are all saying!
> 
> 
> But can you share with us what are some of best tactics for defeating a wrestler while sticking to a standing art with out combining ground fighting...in other words...how do you defeat a wrestler while not playing his game?


Learn some version of a sprawl.  Mind your distancing so that you can maintain space between yourself and the wrestler.  Avoid giving him grips, and learn how to break those grips, just in case.  While a well timed knee to the head could stop a double leg takedown, it's as likely to miss as not.  However, a good sprawl and SEVERAL knees to the head can really do wonders.  Or, a good sprawl, drive the head down while you stand back up and create distance.  Chuck Liddell is great at this.

Learn enough grappling so that if you ARE taken to the ground you can improve your position or create enough space to stand back up.  Whether that's "anti-grappling" or whatever, you will need to avoid being defenseless on the ground.

Finally, as others have said, regardless of the techniques you're training, do so against competent grapplers with resistance, so that you can develop the timing and facility to execute the techniques when you need them.


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## Yoshiyahu

Okay I am familiar with using the Sprawl. I had to use this against police officer friend of mines who wanted to see if he could take me down. I use the sprawl and place my weight on his neck an head then push his face down to ground while dropping my weight at the same time...Then I rolled around his body Went for python head lock on his neck an use my weight to prevent him from getting up easily...if he attempted to get up I would kick the back of his supporting knee to get him back down...Still holding the Headlock until he submitted or tapped.


But as for your statement on using the Knee while someone is shooting for your legs...This could be disadvantageous. Especially if the combatant is bigger in weight than you. For one he has momentum coming at you. So he has the power of his weight along with the momentum generated from his legs. Your in a stactic posistion lifting up one knee to make a chanceful contact with his chin to stop his momentum...


While your essentially on one leg...you may hit him but your power in that knee may not be forceful enough to break off his momentum which he has already committed to. Laws of Phyiscs state he is already in motion and being carried by inertia along with his legs propelling his entire body forward. So even if the shock or pain stops his legs from shooting his body is still in forward motion and his arms are ready for the clinch of your legs..or in this case one leg which he grabs on his way to ground an pulls out from under you while your knee makes contact with his face...Which would do doubt lessen the impact of your knee since he destroyed your foundation which would would have given you leverage and added power in lifting the knee. I would suggest if your fast enough to side step while grabbing a outside arm an warding it off or pulling it pass you, outside of your gates...Use his momentum that he has already committed to, inorder to throw or redirect his energy pass you gaining you the advantage to out flank him or drive behind him and take him out or too the ground. Now This is something I have experiences against a slower opponent so it will not work on everyone. But if your faster than the guy going for the shoot I would suggest this tactic...

But the average MMA guy is not going to just shoot for your legs...he is going to go for your arms an use leverage to bring you down to ground like in judo. Or he may shoot for your waist or use your shoulders to bring you down...Many different scenarios to look out for...It depends on skill level of the wrestler. Some Grapplers try to flank you pick you up from the back throw or slam you down to ground then gain a dominant posistion on your back. 
Like this: 

 or This 



From here you may try to roll using your hips or legs as leverage and also use the strength in shoulders to roll. If the person gains a dominant posistion over you from the front(On top of your chest), then the best thing to do is umpa or raise up your hips off the ground and back when you can to create space for you work Pak Sau Chainpunch and Grappling on the ground. If you can get a hand free utilize chain punches or short elbow strikes when your opponent is close to you. 


But WC is about feeling so the main thing you want to do is gain access to his arm bridge. Try to gain a dominant posistion an lock his arms out so he can not get momentum to shoot nor can he accurately lock out to your arm for a take down. If he tries to redirect to lower level then thats where upper cuts come in at...Wing Chun does have upper cuts and hooks. I love to grab the back of head an attempt to push their chin into their chest when I see the combatant drop lower than my shoulder height. 

But your advice is sound...But if one uses Wing Chun he wants to be in trapping distance against a grappler...Maybe using kicks agaisnt shins and knees when he is far away...But when close he wants to use trapping and striking together. When the head moves the body follows. If he goes to ground he wants to relax and work his sensitivity to where can strike and roll over to dominant posistion or switch posistion in sprawl to lock out his opponent by a joint lock..Chin Na to he reaches his pain thresh hold and submits or chokeout from behind where the combatant can not use his arms are leverage to fight him off! 

Now Ways to continue the fight from a striking point of view would be total flow of techniques. That means you should not be static but constantly moving from foot work to hand motions. You should be attacking upper and lower gates contiously With kicks and punches. Attack From what ever distance the grappler is at. If he is in grappling range. The best thing to do while your both standing is to break through his bridge with snapping back fist. Stun him while kicking the shin with edge of you foot or stomping the shin or knee. Then while kicking the shin commence chain punch to face. If he draws back out of range bridge the gap by another kick to shin or inside of the knee. Hopefully he goes down on one knee. If he goes down on one knee circle around to opposite side chain punch and hook the face hard and then go back to chain punches alternating between fast short hooks and chain punches. If he reaches over or bridges with the closes hand. Grab that hand turn it away from your body while contiously punching with your free hand to face. This will give you advantageous posistion while standing. 

To Remain in on the outside with out using inside fighting strategies change up the tactics. If he makes it back to his feet utilize front kicks to his thighs to stop his progress, Use instep kick to side of his knees or thight or shin when in close. When at a distance use some long boxing or hung gar punches mixed up with the Wing Chun punches. Along with long kicks. Round house kick the Sides of shins or calf muscles. Front kick his Dan Tien or belly button or stomach. Stomp kick his knee or shin and Blade kick the shins. Use Stop kicks and Stop punches interchangeable with Chain punches. If he tries to gain contact by bridging give him no bridge...destroy the bridge. Pak Da constantly to destroy his bridge. Jut Da to remove his foundation and strike. 


*Tactics for outside fighting*:
When he gets close Fast front kick to his sternum or diaphram.

Contious chainpunches to the nose while alternating round house kicks to the sides of legs(shins, knees and thigh).

When he comes close Pak Sau and utilize a fast Snapping back fist to stun him followed by stepping chain punch and front kicks.  

Use Combo Strikes to his Chin Nose and Jaw. Like Chain punch,Hook,Chainpunch upper cut, Chain punch hook, or Slight hook Torque punch slight hooks twice upper cut chain punch.

Constant kicking the Knees and Shins when moves forward.

Constant kicking diaphram when you move forward. 

Contious chain punches or combos while kicking the shins or knees.

Stop kicks followed by a combos or chain punchs.

Stop hits followed by the above.

Use endurance and strength and punishing techniques to wear oppoent out.

Punish his arms by banging the with your bone in your fore arm. 

Use Aikido or Chin na when the opponent gives you a bridge to give you advantageous striking or leg take down manuever.


_But I am no Wrestler or Grappler...So shows what I know...I only know what has worked utilizing Wing Chun against few fighters. Not all does it work against. Many of these tactics I describe concerning ground fighting doesn't work against other Skilled Wing Chun fighters I have encountered...But if you have the phyiscal conditioning meaning strength training and stamina and endurance training it may work for you!_

But just a little word of caution I don't advise lifting up the leg against someone who is trying to capture your balance and uproot you or throw you. To Do so would be suicide. Just because he is shooting for your legs doesn't mean he doesn't know how to move the knee or kick out of his path while he is forward motion to turn your body over to side. Very bad posistion to be. You leave yourself open to all sorts of techniques!





stevebjj said:


> Learn some version of a sprawl. Mind your distancing so that you can maintain space between yourself and the wrestler. Avoid giving him grips, and learn how to break those grips, just in case. While a well timed knee to the head could stop a double leg takedown, it's as likely to miss as not. However, a good sprawl and SEVERAL knees to the head can really do wonders. Or, a good sprawl, drive the head down while you stand back up and create distance. Chuck Liddell is great at this.
> 
> Learn enough grappling so that if you ARE taken to the ground you can improve your position or create enough space to stand back up. Whether that's "anti-grappling" or whatever, you will need to avoid being defenseless on the ground.
> 
> Finally, as others have said, regardless of the techniques you're training, do so against competent grapplers with resistance, so that you can develop the timing and facility to execute the techniques when you need them.


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## GBlues

In my opinion if you get into situations;
Like this: 

 or This 

 as a straight striker your screwed. Not necassarily but most likely. The reason being you've trained mostly striking, not wrestling or grappling. So the reality is you can't get into these situations. You have to beat the guy before he can get you here. Couple of things to consider about this also, is are we sparring, or going balls to the wall self-defense? 

That being said, in a self-defense situation, you know when your going to have to fight, before the fight happens. You just do. Like I've always been told, "If you know your going to fight, don't wait, get it on!". This meaning that a pre-emptive attack is better than a reactionary response. Couple of other things is to observe his stance, his movement, should give you some idea of his intention, whether it be to pummel you to death with strikes or to just take you to the ground and either break something or try to pummel you to death while he sits on your chest.

Now I've found that there are some things you can do that will, increase your odds. I wear a baseball cap pretty much everywhere I go. It's a good tool. People don't realize it but it is. You can snap that thing off and fling it into somebody's face pretty quick! Being a WC guy like you are this, may or may not depending on your adversaries skill level, give you enough time to clear the gap and get into the trapping range that you want to be in and begin to pummel him with strikes. He won't be thinking about shooting or taking you down anymore, he'll be more concerned with trying to get away from you. 

Good footwork, is a must to keep yourself at a distance. You don't want to be so close that he can get that shoot, or get a hand on you. You really have to wait for the right moment in time, to do anything. Everything is timing, anyways I wish I could finish my post but I gots to go, so, I'll try and expand upon this a little bit later.
:asian:


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## Yoshiyahu

Excellent response I love it...I can not find to much fault with it...


But one thing I have to share...going to ground is not the end for WC...
My Sifu also knows the ground fighting of Gung Fu too. As a matter of fact prior to Wing Chun I studied a small portion of Judo and Aikido. So I would use those in the Wing Chun. But Wing Chun uses Chin Na...Which I found strange...because the Vary moves In Chin Na are also in Aikido...An Chin Na can be applied on the ground. It wouldn't be wise to assume all Wing Chun artist are afraid to be on the ground....

Another thing I was speaking of Sparring not fighting!

Of course in a fight you are to be relentless and show no mercy. What I mean is you don't hold back

*Tactics for street fight*
Punch the Adams Apple.
Squeeze the Adams Apple.
Knife hand the Adams Apple.
Phoenix fist the Adams Apple.
Finger Jab the Adams Apple.
Strike the Eyes with Fingers,thumbs or Phoenix Eye Fist.
Kick the gonads and groin.
Punch the Gonads and groin.
Finger jab under the arm pits. 
Phoenix eye fist the temples.
Finger Jab or Phoenix Eye Fist the soft part of neck behind the Ears.
Kick the Pelvic bone. Kick in the knee backwards and scrabe down the shins with the foot.

Stab throat and eyes with metal fountain pen!
Stab Sternum or Diaphram repeately with metal fountain pen.
Attack soft tissue behind the ear with metal pen.
Attack under the arms with pen.
Punch back of neck consistently
Break the nose
split the lip

etc etc...These are some techniques for fighting with...

But I like your advice concerning the hat...As for ground fighting many WC fighters spar both standing and on the ground. My Sidai who loved to wrestle as has moved away so I havent had any skilled wrestlers to spar with in about three years so I am out of practice actually. But WC does have ground fighting. The Ground is not somewhere most people who fight in my area do. The Average Joe Blow around here will attack you like Mohammed Ali. They don't desire to be tied on the ground with no one. Most of the cats around here advoid the ground at all cost....So your pretty much going to be a duke out.

As for take downs...WC has them...I do like the shoot for the legs. But WC doesn't run in for your legs and tackles you the same ways as shoot fighting does. WC will grab the back of your knees and try to pull them in and lift them up in the air to cause you to land on the back of your head. This move is found in Bil Jee. But this gives me time to attack you when you get up off the ground before you have time to set and find your center of gravity.

But a warning to you. Don't believe all WC fighters don't have a ground a game.

My Sidai Was a High School Wrestler
My Muay Thai Friends loves to wrestle
My Police officer friend is always trying shoot for my legs
I took Aikido and Judo for a very short time

So We have both outside Grappling experience and Wing Chun Ground fighting experience. Don't be confuse...Ground fighting is not something new to WC...Its just alot of the time people Don't train the ground fighting because of lack of sparring partners to train it with...Most Strikers Hate ground fighting. Which is understandable...Because depending on your area of census. The majority of your attackers will be more prone to boxing. I where I grew up...When we were kids we would Wrestle all day long like in Junior high...But in High School Trying to wrestle in a fight would get your **** kicked...Especially if they had friends!


*True High School Story*:
One little story. I remember one time in High School I was a Senior. I was small for most kids...I was only about 5'8 and weighed about 145lbs wet. Any way I went to a county school But thanks to gangster movies everyone one in my county thought they were bloods,crips or Folk Nation or Gangster Disicples. Anyway there was the made up imaginary crip set called Third floor. There were about seven of these guys. They tried to punk three of us one day. Some of the guys were bigger than us. But they were underclassmen. But because of their size they thought they were tough. My Sidai instigated a fight with the guys. My other friend Rodney was very muscular and he was a high school wrestler too. So the fight broke out My Sidai hitting people with Wing Chun Strikes and kicks and using Wrestling moves to slam guys on the hard stone floors. An Rodney was punching and kicking people across the hall. It look like something in the movies...Eventually the Made of Crip set gave up their attack...We went are separate ways. But it just so happen I was walking on Third floor three days later...An these guys who called themselves third floor crips where there...It was like ten of them...I was like three by my self I could handle but ten I don't know So I am getting ready to start punching and kicking differnet people to get around them to get down the hall to my class. Anyway...They were like how about big boy fight him...Big boy was some big ole taller fat kid...He tried boxing first. He was punching at me...Boy so fat I could block his strikes with hand because he was slow as heck. But I let one in so I could Jut Sau...That means jerking hand...I grab his hand pulled him in an started striking the back of his head...Now honestly he tried to run around in a circle. I guess he thought he make me let go of his Arm and stop hitting him. But I kept hitting him in the head until he stop running around in a silly circle. Then  backed up. Getting ready for the kicks. He came in like he was going to punch again so I am ready to block. He got between trapping and grappling range then reach out an grabbed me with both hands. So In my mind he is about to throw me on my back on the ground. I wrapped my legs around his body. An my arms around his neck and started squeezing. He wanted to drop down on the ground with me...But if he let go of his hands I was going to kick my legs back out. But he realize he wasn't in a good posistion because even if he flew down to hard floor he would more than likely hurt his knuckles and fingers. So He placed me down lightly on the ground an was light dude let go. I let go he ran backwards I kipped up off the ground ran towards him and gave him double palm stike in his chest and stomach and senting him tumbelling back into his Clique. After that I said are we finish. He retorted to his Gang"That guy is crazy." Now I left out the other comical stuff I said an then while I was hitting him...But it was definitely a show to see. But this is high school So I am sharing that even though people train WC or Muay Thai never Assume they never go to ground. An if they do go to ground chances are they meditate on ways to get up quickly from the ground or dominate when put to dirt.

Just my little two cents...Please respne again!



Favorite Aikido move I like to apply while sparring or fighting!













GBlues said:


> In my opinion if you get into situations;
> Like this:
> 
> or This
> 
> as a straight striker your screwed. Not necassarily but most likely. The reason being you've trained mostly striking, not wrestling or grappling. So the reality is you can't get into these situations. You have to beat the guy before he can get you here. Couple of things to consider about this also, is are we sparring, or going balls to the wall self-defense?
> 
> That being said, in a self-defense situation, you know when your going to have to fight, before the fight happens. You just do. Like I've always been told, "If you know your going to fight, don't wait, get it on!". This meaning that a pre-emptive attack is better than a reactionary response. Couple of other things is to observe his stance, his movement, should give you some idea of his intention, whether it be to pummel you to death with strikes or to just take you to the ground and either break something or try to pummel you to death while he sits on your chest.
> 
> Now I've found that there are some things you can do that will, increase your odds. I wear a baseball cap pretty much everywhere I go. It's a good tool. People don't realize it but it is. You can snap that thing off and fling it into somebody's face pretty quick! Being a WC guy like you are this, may or may not depending on your adversaries skill level, give you enough time to clear the gap and get into the trapping range that you want to be in and begin to pummel him with strikes. He won't be thinking about shooting or taking you down anymore, he'll be more concerned with trying to get away from you.
> 
> Good footwork, is a must to keep yourself at a distance. You don't want to be so close that he can get that shoot, or get a hand on you. You really have to wait for the right moment in time, to do anything. Everything is timing, anyways I wish I could finish my post but I gots to go, so, I'll try and expand upon this a little bit later.
> :asian:


----------



## GBlues

HaHa!!! That was a good story. Hmm....I didn't realize there was apparently so much grappling in WC!? It's not what you here about the art very much, like I said in my previous post, the majority of what I hear is, mostly about the verasity of the trapping. That's cool. In another thread  I touched upon the average bar room streetfighter/brawler. And one of the things about those guys is some of them, may have been very accomplished highschool wrestlers at one point. The cool thing about grappling I think is that it doesn't take quite so much maintenance to stay  proficient at it. I mean yeah you still have to practice and stuff, but it seems to stay with you longer, with less constant practice. Anyways, I don't assume much of anything anymore. Especially when it comes to fighting.

Sounds to me like you would feel pretty comfortable on the ground anyways. From your previous post. I guess the question is then how in depth is the WC training for ground fighting? If your asking how to keep from going to the ground with straight strikes I really can't think of anything to add, from my other posts. However since you've studied Aikido, that could very well play in your favor also. I don't know how many throws WC has, but it might be beneficial to even let the grappler place a hand  on you and then go for the, (if I spell this right, if not forgive me, I'm going to sound it out), Akodiguiesh???, ( you know the wrist lock throw) and flop him on his head! Or even steal a technique from Kenpo! THe lapel grab, when he tries to grab your shirt, say with his right hand, reach your right hand across trapping his left. Bring your left up and over, striking downward on his arm right in the crook of the elbow. This will cause him to come forward more, take that same left, and shoot a knife hand chop to the throat, or backfist to the nose, or even finger jab to the eyes. Should by enough time to start that classic WC chain punching, or very likely leave you the opening for his groin.

Or even this one, and I've been thinking about this one for a long time. Have never tested it yet, and don't know about the feesability of this one, but it holds my imagination quite a bit. Royce Gracie used to do this little kick for the knee to set up the shoot. I seen a few guys avoid this for awhile, and then they go for the leg block or the low block with there hands and then pretty much it was over he was shooting. He'd usually get them right away after like 1st, 2nd, or third shot on this. I've been doing some thinking about this particular method of setup. The guys that avoided this method the most were those that would simply back away from the attack. Royce was always using this to gauge his distance also for the shoot. If he was close enough to hit you, he's close enough to get you. Here's my thinking on this one. As they do this set-up kick, they are setting a pattern a rythm also. As you shuffle step back they're getting used to the fact that, that's what your going to do. I kick, he shuffles back. Now he'll either change tactics right away, or he'll do it a 4th time maybe, or even a you could do  this on the 2nd or third attempt, depends on the timing. But one time, when he raises that leg to kick, you shoot yourself, dropping to a knee, grabbing his kicking leg. Yeah I know, crazy, but it might work. It'll leave your head and chest exposed to attack, cause with your free hand you've got to be striking the groin at the same time. If you can actually get THIS to work up to this point you'd be golden. Cause' your getting an injury right away, that will cause him to bend over. Now at this point in my mind I see it going one of two ways. Either a quick stand smashing the top of your head into his face, as he bends over,( double the damage
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), or standing up sweeping his supporting lag out, from under him dropping him on his back, with a quick step through his legs, to stomp on this adams apple, throat etc.... and then go home. Probably if you could pull this off and were very good at it, take all of about 10-20 secs. to end the confrontation. Now if it doesn't go good, I see VERY BAD THINGS IN STORE FOR THE GUY THAT TRIED IT!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also IF you got this to work, and depending on your size and how deep your able to get inside his comfort zone, he might smash his face on your head no matter what when he bends over from the groin punch. You guys on here will HAVE to tell me what you think of that one. Cause' I foresee that one would be very hard to pull off against somebody that is as skilled as Royce or somebody that just even has say 2-3 exp, behind him.:asian:


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Hey GBlues...Now your talking...In a second we have to return back to how to defeat a grappler with out going to the ground...But you are making some good points...


The main thing about ground fighting is you just have to do...its exactly like Chi Sau only not standing up

Wing Chun has over 70 Chin Na techniques which includes arm locks and throws.

But not all Wing Chun lineages really go into detail...Now we did because our Sifu was a fighter. We didn't go in depth on ground fighting like MMA schools. But we got some minor practice among one another. Sifu would speak of turning off force...Parrying strikes to face....

As for Japanese terminology...I dont remember hardly any terminology...But my Aikido instructure had us do mostly take down drills the entire class after we practice stretching, Rolls and Throwing.

Some of the drills are very applicable. But you mention one of my old judo take downs...Where the guy grabs you by your shirt and you grab his shirt or arm and you can flip him over your back...Another move was you roll backwards kick you foot in his chest an when you get flat on your back kick him in the air over you...Nasty technique...Those were my favorites...Some of Aikido Techniques take too long an are too Slow so I try to miminize down to what works the majority of the time...


But you mention someone skilled like Gracie...I don't know too many people who can honestly say they are skilled enough to beat Gracie in Jiujitsu. Needless to say not to many strikers think they can beat Mike Tyson in striking...Even with kicks...


But as for the weapons of Wing Chun Man...he is never limited...

Oh I hear all the time Wing Chun doesn't kick above the Stomach or Waist...Wing Chun doesn't usually kick above the Waist...But just because it doesn't usually. What would happen if the wing chun man has he hands behind his back...He would probably kick your face off if he could. Ha Ha...My Sihing says all the time he doesn't fight with high kicks...But that doesn't mean he doesn't practice them...We practice defense drills with one another. My Sihing is very strecth out an kicks very high...Possibly over my head if he wants to. But in a fight usually he is going aim below your hips...Thats to prevent you from grabbing his feet with your hands. To reach his feet you have to bend down. lol...So I tell people all the time Wing Chun has principals but just because it has principals in fighting you can bend the rules...Like Wing Chun is mostly linear. But if you look at Bil Gee form you will see right and left hooks. Also Wing Chun has an upper cut. Some Wing Chun people actually are lazy...They practice everything...So some Wing Chun people can not kick high...can not throw circle attacks.Can not ground fight. Some Wing Chun people have terrible flexibility. An when they get fifty they will understand then why their body is in such bad shape.

People think Wing Chun fighters don't have stamina...But whats up with jumping rope and running...Wing Chun is not a lazy man's art as it is becoming in states...Its for fighters. I have heard one guy says he doesn't even practice kicks...He has videos showing his wing chun...but he is very lazy...he doesnt practice kicks...he doesnt hit the wall bag or punching bag with force...He doesn't work to increase his strength and punching power Etc etc...Now of course he could just be talking an actually lying to me because he doesn't want me know he is not that lazy...or he is being truthful...There is so much more to WC than practicing Forms,two man Drills and Chi Sau all day. Most people think thats all there is...No thats just the beginning...

But also did you know the Chain punch can be altered to be many different types of punching? Not just all straight chain punches...you can alternate strikes. Like a Crane does...

But the tactics you meantion for the shoot sound like a pretty good one...

I have suggestion for you...

Get a buddy...Buy some head gear with a face shield or cage.

Practice light contact sparring an trying to shoot in on him after every three strikes you throw...He is to use a kick,knee, elbow or upper cut stop you. Now this way you get used to seeing how is body structure changes...feel the change and possibly block or parry the blow or evade the kick. This will also help you with your timing. Because he knows your going to shoot. But you time it just right to where his attack is void...Now if he tries to kick you or knee you practice deflecting the kick or moving it out the way as you shoot for the legs...move the knee on through and shoot for the side of the hips and slam him down!

This could be a great skill builder...It allows you to work on shooting...It allows your friend to work on striking so you can't shoot.

Tell me what you think?




GBlues said:


> HaHa!!! That was a good story. Hmm....I didn't realize there was apparently so much grappling in WC!? It's not what you here about the art very much, like I said in my previous post, the majority of what I hear is, mostly about the verasity of the trapping. That's cool. In another thread I touched upon the average bar room streetfighter/brawler. And one of the things about those guys is some of them, may have been very accomplished highschool wrestlers at one point. The cool thing about grappling I think is that it doesn't take quite so much maintenance to stay proficient at it. I mean yeah you still have to practice and stuff, but it seems to stay with you longer, with less constant practice. Anyways, I don't assume much of anything anymore. Especially when it comes to fighting.
> 
> Sounds to me like you would feel pretty comfortable on the ground anyways. From your previous post. I guess the question is then how in depth is the WC training for ground fighting? If your asking how to keep from going to the ground with straight strikes I really can't think of anything to add, from my other posts. However since you've studied Aikido, that could very well play in your favor also. I don't know how many throws WC has, but it might be beneficial to even let the grappler place a hand on you and then go for the, (if I spell this right, if not forgive me, I'm going to sound it out), Akodiguiesh???, ( you know the wrist lock throw) and flop him on his head! Or even steal a technique from Kenpo! THe lapel grab, when he tries to grab your shirt, say with his right hand, reach your right hand across trapping his left. Bring your left up and over, striking downward on his arm right in the crook of the elbow. This will cause him to come forward more, take that same left, and shoot a knife hand chop to the throat, or backfist to the nose, or even finger jab to the eyes. Should by enough time to start that classic WC chain punching, or very likely leave you the opening for his groin.
> 
> Or even this one, and I've been thinking about this one for a long time. Have never tested it yet, and don't know about the feesability of this one, but it holds my imagination quite a bit. Royce Gracie used to do this little kick for the knee to set up the shoot. I seen a few guys avoid this for awhile, and then they go for the leg block or the low block with there hands and then pretty much it was over he was shooting. He'd usually get them right away after like 1st, 2nd, or third shot on this. I've been doing some thinking about this particular method of setup. The guys that avoided this method the most were those that would simply back away from the attack. Royce was always using this to gauge his distance also for the shoot. If he was close enough to hit you, he's close enough to get you. Here's my thinking on this one. As they do this set-up kick, they are setting a pattern a rythm also. As you shuffle step back they're getting used to the fact that, that's what your going to do. I kick, he shuffles back. Now he'll either change tactics right away, or he'll do it a 4th time maybe, or even a you could do this on the 2nd or third attempt, depends on the timing. But one time, when he raises that leg to kick, you shoot yourself, dropping to a knee, grabbing his kicking leg. Yeah I know, crazy, but it might work. It'll leave your head and chest exposed to attack, cause with your free hand you've got to be striking the groin at the same time. If you can actually get THIS to work up to this point you'd be golden. Cause' your getting an injury right away, that will cause him to bend over. Now at this point in my mind I see it going one of two ways. Either a quick stand smashing the top of your head into his face, as he bends over,( double the damage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), or standing up sweeping his supporting lag out, from under him dropping him on his back, with a quick step through his legs, to stomp on this adams apple, throat etc.... and then go home. Probably if you could pull this off and were very good at it, take all of about 10-20 secs. to end the confrontation. Now if it doesn't go good, I see VERY BAD THINGS IN STORE FOR THE GUY THAT TRIED IT!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also IF you got this to work, and depending on your size and how deep your able to get inside his comfort zone, he might smash his face on your head no matter what when he bends over from the groin punch. You guys on here will HAVE to tell me what you think of that one. Cause' I foresee that one would be very hard to pull off against somebody that is as skilled as Royce or somebody that just even has say 2-3 exp, behind him.:asian:


----------



## GBlues

Yoshiyahu said:


> Hey GBlues...Now your talking...In a second we have to return back to how to defeat a grappler with out going to the ground...But you are making some good points...
> 
> 
> 
> The main thing about ground fighting is you just have to do...its exactly like Chi Sau only not standing up
> 
> Wing Chun has over 70 Chin Na techniques which includes arm locks and throws.
> 
> But not all Wing Chun lineages really go into detail...Now we did because our Sifu was a fighter. We didn't go in depth on ground fighting like MMA schools. But we got some minor practice among one another. Sifu would speak of turning off force...Parrying strikes to face....
> 
> As for Japanese terminology...I dont remember hardly any terminology...But my Aikido instructure had us do mostly take down drills the entire class after we practice stretching, Rolls and Throwing.
> 
> Some of the drills are very applicable. But you mention one of my old judo take downs...Where the guy grabs you by your shirt and you grab his shirt or arm and you can flip him over your back...Another move was you roll backwards kick you foot in his chest an when you get flat on your back kick him in the air over you...Nasty technique...Those were my favorites...Some of Aikido Techniques take too long an are too Slow so I try to miminize down to what works the majority of the time...
> 
> 
> But you mention someone skilled like Gracie...I don't know too many people who can honestly say they are skilled enough to beat Gracie in Jiujitsu. Needless to say not to many strikers think they can beat Mike Tyson in striking...Even with kicks...
> 
> But as for the weapons of Wing Chun Man...he is never limited...
> 
> Oh I hear all the time Wing Chun doesn't kick above the Stomach or Waist...Wing Chun doesn't usually kick above the Waist...But just because it doesn't usually. What would happen if the wing chun man has he hands behind his back...He would probably kick your face off if he could. Ha Ha...My Sihing says all the time he doesn't fight with high kicks...But that doesn't mean he doesn't practice them...We practice defense drills with one another. My Sihing is very strecth out an kicks very high...Possibly over my head if he wants to. But in a fight usually he is going aim below your hips...Thats to prevent you from grabbing his feet with your hands. To reach his feet you have to bend down. lol...So I tell people all the time Wing Chun has principals but just because it has principals in fighting you can bend the rules...Like Wing Chun is mostly linear. But if you look at Bil Gee form you will see right and left hooks. Also Wing Chun has an upper cut. Some Wing Chun people actually are lazy...They practice everything...So some Wing Chun people can not kick high...can not throw circle attacks.Can not ground fight. Some Wing Chun people have terrible flexibility. An when they get fifty they will understand then why their body is in such bad shape.
> 
> People think Wing Chun fighters don't have stamina...But whats up with jumping rope and running...Wing Chun is not a lazy man's art as it is becoming in states...Its for fighters. I have heard one guy says he doesn't even practice kicks...He has videos showing his wing chun...but he is very lazy...he doesnt practice kicks...he doesnt hit the wall bag or punching bag with force...He doesn't work to increase his strength and punching power Etc etc...Now of course he could just be talking an actually lying to me because he doesn't want me know he is not that lazy...or he is being truthful...There is so much more to WC than practicing Forms,two man Drills and Chi Sau all day. Most people think thats all there is...No thats just the beginning...
> 
> But also did you know the Chain punch can be altered to be many different types of punching? Not just all straight chain punches...you can alternate strikes. Like a Crane does...
> But the tactics you meantion for the shoot sound like a pretty good one...
> 
> I have suggestion for you...
> 
> Get a buddy...Buy some head gear with a face shield or cage.
> 
> Practice light contact sparring an trying to shoot in on him after every three strikes you throw...He is to use a kick,knee, elbow or upper cut stop you. Now this way you get used to seeing how is body structure changes...feel the change and possibly block or parry the blow or evade the kick. This will also help you with your timing. Because he knows your going to shoot. But you time it just right to where his attack is void...Now if he tries to kick you or knee you practice deflecting the kick or moving it out the way as you shoot for the legs...move the knee on through and shoot for the side of the hips and slam him down!
> 
> This could be a great skill builder...It allows you to work on shooting...It allows your friend to work on striking so you can't shoot.
> 
> Tell me what you think?


 was talking about defeating a grappler without going to the ground. I was thinking of everything standing up. LOL! Guess I wasn't descriptive enough sorry.
The technique that your describing about putting your foot in the guys stomach, and rolling back, to throw him over you...I have heard this called a 'monkey flip'
I was just using Gracie as an example of that kick that he used to use in the UFC back in the day. I wouldn't go to the ground with someone like that. Or try and fight Mike Tyson. I'd just shoot the guy and run! LOL!
 No, I did not know that about Wing Chun. Thanks for the information on that. I appreciate it.
I'm going to have to try that drill. I think it would be fun. I really want to try taking the guy down from that front knee kick, though. I think that it would really put a crimp in the grapplers game. At least for Street Self-Defense. Course you may never meet a guy that fights like a Gracie, but still be a cool move to get good at. I think. If it can be done. Anyways, back to how to defeat a grappler while standing.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Okay how do you defeat grappler standing up..continue...

An the below comments about Mike Tyson and Royce Gracie made me laugh...lol




GBlues said:


> I was talking about defeating a grappler without going to the ground. I was thinking of everything standing up. LOL! Guess I wasn't descriptive enough sorry.
> 
> The technique that your describing about putting your foot in the guys stomach, and rolling back, to throw him over you...I have heard this called a 'monkey flip'
> 
> I was just using Gracie as an example of that kick that he used to use in the UFC back in the day. I wouldn't go to the ground with someone like that. Or try and fight Mike Tyson. I'd just shoot the guy and run! LOL!
> No, I did not know that about Wing Chun. Thanks for the information on that. I appreciate it.
> 
> I'm going to have to try that drill. I think it would be fun. I really want to try taking the guy down from that front knee kick, though. I think that it would really put a crimp in the grapplers game. At least for Street Self-Defense. Course you may never meet a guy that fights like a Gracie, but still be a cool move to get good at. I think. If it can be done. Anyways, back to how to defeat a grappler while standing.


----------



## mook jong man

We used to practice Chi Sau , with one person attempting to tackle at random and it was found on the first few times people usually got taken to the ground.

 But after that they became quite adept at picking up the body cues and most times were able to avoid the tackle.

 I believe more Wing Chun schools should train like this , we are already training at close range so why not just include shoots and tackles as part of the drill.

 Surely if you can develop the reflex to stop them from Chi Sau range would this not enhance your ability to stop them from longer ranges .


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Excellent idea...Mook Jong...I practice some similiar with friend as well...Great strategy.





mook jong man said:


> We used to practice Chi Sau , with one person attempting to tackle at random and it was found on the first few times people usually got taken to the ground.
> 
> But after that they became quite adept at picking up the body cues and most times were able to avoid the tackle.
> 
> I believe more Wing Chun schools should train like this , we are already training at close range so why not just include shoots and tackles as part of the drill.
> 
> Surely if you can develop the reflex to stop them from Chi Sau range would this not enhance your ability to stop them from longer ranges .


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## Yoshiyahu

I guess we exhausted this topic...No more comments eh?


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## Hagakure

Yoshiyahu said:


> I guess we exhausted this topic...No more comments eh?


 
Not quite amigo. 

My take is that utilising a combination of WC techniques, including increased awareness of a grapplers shoot, looking for body signs/positions that will alert you to what he/she will do next is key. Combine that with the chi sao drills and it's a "start". 

I also believe that training with grapplers is pretty important too. In my view, and I've seen it borne out in the UFC as a test bed, that the _longer_ you can frustrate a grapplers attempts to take you to the ground, the more frustrated they will become, when they will likely fall back onto their secondary strength, i.e _striking_, simply because they can't take you to the ground. It's safe to say it's a good idea to practice grappling techniques, and something I intend to add to my repetoire.

So, in conclusion, practice looking for signs, train against grapplers and their techniques, as someone previously mentioned to get used to the speed that these guys can move, utilise WC techniques/applications such as chi sao. You don't necessarily need to train a new art if you don't want to, but I certainly think you need to train _with_ grapplers at some point if you're serious about defeating them.

I watched Matt Hughes trying to repeatedly take down GSP a while back, and every time was resisted and avoided, and then bludgeoned with strikes. It is possible, but you've got to be able to know when the shoot is coming, ways to get out of it, stay on the ground, then hit hardest, fastest and first to put them down. Would be my take on it.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I love your post...This is so true, I plan to engage some grapplers when the snow is gone and it warms up. This is very true one needs to train spar or fight wrestlers to know what to expect.



Hagakure said:


> Not quite amigo.
> 
> My take is that utilising a combination of WC techniques, including increased awareness of a grapplers shoot, looking for body signs/positions that will alert you to what he/she will do next is key. Combine that with the chi sao drills and it's a "start".
> 
> I also believe that training with grapplers is pretty important too. In my view, and I've seen it borne out in the UFC as a test bed, that the _longer_ you can frustrate a grapplers attempts to take you to the ground, the more frustrated they will become, when they will likely fall back onto their secondary strength, i.e _striking_, simply because they can't take you to the ground. It's safe to say it's a good idea to practice grappling techniques, and something I intend to add to my repetoire.
> 
> So, in conclusion, practice looking for signs, train against grapplers and their techniques, as someone previously mentioned to get used to the speed that these guys can move, utilise WC techniques/applications such as chi sao. You don't necessarily need to train a new art if you don't want to, but I certainly think you need to train _with_ grapplers at some point if you're serious about defeating them.
> 
> I watched Matt Hughes trying to repeatedly take down GSP a while back, and every time was resisted and avoided, and then bludgeoned with strikes. It is possible, but you've got to be able to know when the shoot is coming, ways to get out of it, stay on the ground, then hit hardest, fastest and first to put them down. Would be my take on it.


----------



## Hagakure

Yoshiyahu said:


> I love your post...This is so true, *I plan to engage some grapplers when the snow is gone and it warms up*. This is very true one needs to train spar or fight wrestlers to know what to expect.


 
Totally, wouldn't fancy rolling around the ground when it's covered in snow. Brrrrr!!


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## KamonGuy2

This goes back to the format of the fight. Very similar to the BJJ argument raging in another thread

If its two people at either side of a ring, then wing chun will have an advantage (kicks, striking, seeing your opponent coming, etc)

If it is in a bar or street and you are pounced on a chunner will struggle. 

Yet it does come down to the skills of each practitioner rather than the arts themselves

My bro (who is a chunner) started BJJ late last year in the US. The lessons were full of big  wrestlers. When they tried to grab hold of him, they found it difficult because he wasnt tense/using strength

Most wrestlers arent too bothered about taking you down to the ground (ie they can fight stand up), buit we are currently working on a lot of clinchwork at Kamon utilizing fak saos and huen saos to strip structure with minimal energy

As I have always said, it is wise to know some kind of ground/clinch art to help compliment your wing chun

If anyone in London is interested in that kind of stuff, try and get down to the Kamon Croydon class on Mondays (you are welcome to sit and watch) and Master Chan will give a brief demo of clinchwork in wing chun 

He is a very nice guy and as long as you dont p*ss him off, you can pretty much ask him anything

One bit of advice though  dont lie about where youre from. He doesnt care if youre from another school so long as youre open about it. In fact it usually helps his demos as it is easier to explain things if you know wing chun already!


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## Yoshiyahu

No what I meant is during winter seasons I hybernate...i dont come out as much. I am sure the mma fighting is done indoors. lol...but i totally agree with you. Most of snow is melted but its like 17 degress outside. I am in the house covered in four blankets with the heat on 80 degrees. I hate cold....




Hagakure said:


> Totally, wouldn't fancy rolling around the ground when it's covered in snow. Brrrrr!!


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## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> No what I meant is during winter seasons I hybernate...i dont come out as much. I am sure the mma fighting is done indoors. lol...but i totally agree with you. Most of snow is melted but its like 17 degress outside. I am in the house covered in four blankets with the heat on 80 degrees. I hate cold....



You'd hate Michigan then....17 degrees is spring jacket weather!  Heck, I get excited when the mercury rises above 15 F!!!!


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## mook jong man

What the hell are you people whinging about , in some parts of Sydney this weekend its going to be 47 C . 

I went out in the backyard to do a kettle bell workout the other day and between the heat and all the smoke from the bush fires that are going on I nearly passed out .

 Man I reckon I would love that cold weather , I'd go outside and make myself a Mook Jong out of the snow , sort of like a Wing Chun snowman .


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## Hand Sword

Well Boston is in the lower digits with snow and ice currently!


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## sjansen

Si-Je said:


> Gblues, you'r pop's has it right. He's answered that question for you in the same or similar manner I would have.
> 
> As for getting "overemotional" I hope you guys had fun poking at Si-Je, lol!
> But, realize taking BJJ doesn't make your "kempo" better, it just is another art you take other than kempo. Now, Tai Chi could make your wing chun better as an example.
> But the two are so different they do conflict, that's what I've been trying to say.(ex. kempo and BJJ)
> Aiki Ju-Jitsu is has a strong striking technique to it too, that might be more akin to kempo, and they do more technique standing. Just an example.
> 
> I've got lots of posts on here about how to defeate a wrestler with pure WC/WT which was the origional post. The BJJ got added by other folks that were missing the point of the post. That believe that WC/WT won't work against a wrestler or grappler. I so strongly disagree, I'm seriously re-considering my origional withdrawl from competition.


 
Your Pop's not right in the head. He can be taken down at will by any wrestler worth his salt. The bulldog/steer throw that many propose will not work as wrestlers who know what thier doing keep their elbows close to their body. Also, wrestlers who have you on the ground will put you in a choke and your dead.


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## Yoshiyahu

My Friend lets not get this Wrestler vs strikers stuff started again. Its pointless..




sjansen said:


> Your Pop's not right in the head. He can be taken down at will by any wrestler worth his salt. The bulldog/steer throw that many propose will not work as wrestlers who know what thier doing keep their elbows close to their body. Also, wrestlers who have you on the ground will put you in a choke and your dead.


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## jarrod

Yoshiyahu said:


> My Friend lets not get this Wrestler vs strikers stuff started again. Its pointless..


 
pointlessly hilarious!  :uhyeah:

j/k, you're right of course.

jf


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## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> My Friend lets not get this Wrestler vs strikers stuff started again. Its pointless..



Oh the irony! :xtrmshock


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## futsaowingchun

Don't play the guys game..Play your game..


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## Yoshiyahu

Dont you agree?



dungeonworks said:


> Oh the irony! :xtrmshock


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## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> Dont you agree?



Oh I agree, and have from the start....just funny seeing you post it given your (and Si-Je) tendency to shoot down cross training in one thread and prop it up in another, hence the irony.


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## Yoshiyahu

Oh well to be honest its not crosstraining Si-je shoots down. Crosstraining can be beneficial...

The part we disagree on is a new martial artist someone who has never studied any martial arts begins to learn martial arts for the first time an starts learning Tiger and Crane, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido. I don't think this would be as productive as someone learning Japanese Jiujitsu for three years before adding a new art such as Muay Thai. An then later add a third art. I think this way you have a great foundation. Now if you have studied WC for like five years already and you want to learn Hapkido and TKD I think that would be more beneficial if you have the time and money.

I see both pro's and con's to cross training.


Pro's
More than one art to draw from
Use different techniques to defeat an oppponent
Extra training can increase stamina

Con's 
Start to get the arts confused or mesh together.
More money to learn two or more at the same time
Time taking away from perfecting one art.

Just to name a few. But learning another art could you more techniques to draw from an add to your fighting ability. As for Si-Je I believe her main point was BJJ is a comabative sport. An training BJJ will not prepare you for an actual fight. It will actually give you a false sense of confidence which could get you killed in the street. As for me I dont feel either way since Most BJJ people dont just study BJJ but also Muay Thai,Judo and boxing. So to me if their BJJ lacks something they will make up for it with Judo or MT. But this is my opinion. 


But the whole idea of which style is better is nonsense...there are no unbeatable styles. Maybe an unbeatable fighter. But not style...WC is not even a style of Kung Fu...its a system. 

As for BJJ...I never liked ground fighting much...I really dont care for it. I respect every martial art including Tae Kwon Do which many fighters today have no respect for. But Just because I respect an art doesn't mean I would like to learn it. So for me BJJ is merely something I dont like as perference. It has nothing to do with how valid or effective the art is.




dungeonworks said:


> Oh I agree, and have from the start....just funny seeing you post it given your (and Si-Je) tendency to shoot down cross training in one thread and prop it up in another, hence the irony.


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## kaizasosei

Interesting perspective and some really good points you make about the pros and cons, Yoshi...
but, please, check out this guys wrestling.  I think one thing that is good is watching wrestling and taking it very seriously, then actually sparing(wrestling) with a wrestler.  Also i think it is good to try to think up different strategies.






j


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## Eru IlÃºvatar

Cool video! I liked it.


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## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> Oh well to be honest its not crosstraining Si-je shoots down. Crosstraining can be beneficial...
> 
> The part we disagree on is a new martial artist someone who has never studied any martial arts begins to learn martial arts for the first time an starts learning Tiger and Crane, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido. I don't think this would be as productive as someone learning Japanese Jiujitsu for three years before adding a new art such as Muay Thai. An then later add a third art. I think this way you have a great foundation. Now if you have studied WC for like five years already and you want to learn Hapkido and TKD I think that would be more beneficial if you have the time and money.


 
Who is advocating a new student, one thats never trained, start taking up 5 arts at the same time?  I know for a fact you will not see a post like that from me.  I have always maintained that a student should wait until the advanced ranks such as brown or black before taking something else on.  



> I see both pro's and con's to cross training.
> 
> 
> Pro's
> More than one art to draw from
> Use different techniques to defeat an oppponent
> Extra training can increase stamina


 
Wow, we agree on something.



> Con's
> 1)Start to get the arts confused or mesh together.
> 2)More money to learn two or more at the same time
> 3)Time taking away from perfecting one art.


 
1) Only if the person is new.  There is nothing wrong with meshing them together.  As I've said, there've been many times that I've started a Kenpo tech., and finished it with a lock from Arnis.  

2) Nothing is cheap.  

3) Why is time a factor?  Learning is a never ending journey.  There shouldn't be a race to get something done.





> Just to name a few. But learning another art could you more techniques to draw from an add to your fighting ability. As for Si-Je I believe her main point was BJJ is a comabative sport. An training BJJ will not prepare you for an actual fight. It will actually give you a false sense of confidence which could get you killed in the street. As for me I dont feel either way since Most BJJ people dont just study BJJ but also Muay Thai,Judo and boxing. So to me if their BJJ lacks something they will make up for it with Judo or MT. But this is my opinion.


 
BJJ will prepare you more than you think.  While it, like ALL arts, have their weak spots, it will prepare you best, in the event you find yourself on the ground in a fight.  Fact of the matter is, is that you can't predict what will happen in a fight.  If you find yourself on the ground in a fight, and don't have the ground skills, well, you're going to wish you had.




> But the whole idea of which style is better is nonsense...there are no unbeatable styles. Maybe an unbeatable fighter. But not style...WC is not even a style of Kung Fu...its a system.


 
Then tell me...why do you start all these art vs. art threads?  Sounds like you're contradicting yourself here.  Perhaps you should take a look at this, specifically section 4.1.  You're not trolling are you?????????



> As for BJJ...I never liked ground fighting much...I really dont care for it. I respect every martial art including Tae Kwon Do which many fighters today have no respect for. But Just because I respect an art doesn't mean I would like to learn it. So for me BJJ is merely something I dont like as perference. It has nothing to do with how valid or effective the art is.


 
Then don't train it!!  You keep harping on BJJ when the ground comes up, because I know for a fact, I've mentioned other ground arts, such as Judo and Sambo and wrestling.  Hey, there're arts that I'm not fond if, yet, I still feel that someone may be able to gain something from them.


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## Yoshiyahu

You have an interesting post. On many of things you said I agree. The things I disagree on arent worth mentioning.


But as for someone new...The con's all pretain to someone new learning many different arts at once. But as for someone who studied lets say 20 years in kenpo or hung gar. Cross train five styles away. It won't really matter then because you already have strong art that you fight with.

As for BJJ...Personally I just don't like how it looks...Thats all I can say.

As for style vs style...thats nonsense...more like fighter vs fighter and the one with more skills and experience wins. 




MJS said:


> Who is advocating a new student, one thats never trained, start taking up 5 arts at the same time? I know for a fact you will not see a post like that from me. I have always maintained that a student should wait until the advanced ranks such as brown or black before taking something else on.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, we agree on something.
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Only if the person is new. There is nothing wrong with meshing them together. As I've said, there've been many times that I've started a Kenpo tech., and finished it with a lock from Arnis.
> 
> 2) Nothing is cheap.
> 
> 3) Why is time a factor? Learning is a never ending journey. There shouldn't be a race to get something done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BJJ will prepare you more than you think. While it, like ALL arts, have their weak spots, it will prepare you best, in the event you find yourself on the ground in a fight. Fact of the matter is, is that you can't predict what will happen in a fight. If you find yourself on the ground in a fight, and don't have the ground skills, well, you're going to wish you had.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then tell me...why do you start all these art vs. art threads? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. Perhaps you should take a look at this, specifically section 4.1. You're not trolling are you?????????
> 
> 
> 
> Then don't train it!! You keep harping on BJJ when the ground comes up, because I know for a fact, I've mentioned other ground arts, such as Judo and Sambo and wrestling. Hey, there're arts that I'm not fond if, yet, I still feel that someone may be able to gain something from them.


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## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> You have an interesting post. On many of things you said I agree. The things I disagree on arent worth mentioning.
> 
> 
> But as for someone new...The con's all pretain to someone new learning many different arts at once. But as for someone who studied lets say 20 years in kenpo or hung gar. Cross train five styles away. It won't really matter then because you already have strong art that you fight with.
> 
> As for BJJ...Personally I just don't like how it looks...Thats all I can say.
> 
> As for style vs style...thats nonsense...more like fighter vs fighter and the one with more skills and experience wins.




BJJ may not look as pretty to the untrained eye as say, aikido or JJJ because everything they do is live (two high level BJJ'ers tech.'s do look pretty smooth and sweet though).  EVERY traditional art looks far sloppier and not how it is trained when it comes to knocking slobber out of someones mouth, just look at Wing Chun and the Cheung vs Boztepe (not to beat this dead horse again, just an example of my point).  Same with Karate, TKD, or whatever else.

I still do not believe a new student is going to be confused or hurt  by cross training.  Heck, I studied Math, English, and History in school and never confused any of it with eachother (except in Algebra.  I always felt the need to check my grammar with all them dang letters and numbers! LOL).  I would agree if the hypothetical student had very bad short term memory or not enough time to practice each art regularly oustide of class....but I feel that way about anyone studying just one art as well.  If you don't practice, you are not benefitting 100%.


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## Steve

dungeonworks said:


> BJJ may not look as pretty to the untrained eye as say, aikido or JJJ because everything they do is live (two high level BJJ'ers tech.'s do look pretty smooth and sweet though).  EVERY traditional art looks far sloppier and not how it is trained when it comes to knocking slobber out of someones mouth, just look at Wing Chun and the Cheung vs Boztepe (not to beat this dead horse again, just an example of my point).  Same with Karate, TKD, or whatever else.
> 
> *I still do not believe a new student is going to be confused or hurt  by cross training.*  Heck, I studied Math, English, and History in school and never confused any of it with eachother (except in Algebra.  I always felt the need to check my grammar with all them dang letters and numbers! LOL).  I would agree if the hypothetical student had very bad short term memory or not enough time to practice each art regularly oustide of class....but I feel that way about anyone studying just one art as well.  If you don't practice, you are not benefitting 100%.


I agree with this completely.  While I think that MJS, Jarrod and many others make a ton of sense when it comes to the subject of crosstraining, I disagree with them on one point.  I don't believe that having a "base" art is necessary or beneficial.  It's certainly a legitimate way to go and might work better for some.  However, I don't believe that training in two discreet arts at the same time, even as a beginner, would be confusing at all.  There are positives and negatives to each approach, but just etching into stone that "Thou shalt have a base art, or thou art wrong," is in my opinion a mistake.

To keep this on topic, to defeat a wrestler... if you want to only use wing chun, I would recommend that you look for quality wrestlers to train with.  The better the wrestlers, the better you will be able to use your training against them.  However you might do it and regardless of technique used, defending against a quality wrestling take down, feeling what people mean by "heavy hips" and experiencing that freakish core strength makes will be all the difference.  

I've said this many times in other discussions, but HOW you train anything is more important, IMO, than WHAT you train.  In every other endeavor humans choose to learn, we learn by doing.  For some reason, martial arts are the only thing I can think of where we often attempt to learn something complex without any kind of actual experience.  We learn math by doing math.  We learn to read by reading.  We play baseball, soccer, or golf to gain experience in those sports.  Wrestlers improve by wrestling.  

But for some reason, when it comes to discussions like this, "How to defeat a wrestler," we forget this fundamental bit of human nature.  I don't know.  Maybe I'm oversimplifying the topic, but it seems to me that this thread could have been 2 posts long.  "How do we defeat a wrestler?"  Well, we would need to train to some degree WITH wrestlers.  Simple as that.  On a regular basis, we would need to figure out a way to get with some wrestlers and try to apply the theory.  Without that crucial practicum, the entire thing would remain an academic exercise...  kind of like learning to cook by memorizing cookbooks, but never stepping into the kitchen.


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## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> You have an interesting post. On many of things you said I agree.


 
Ok.



> The things I disagree on arent worth mentioning.


 
No, probably not.




> But as for someone new...The con's all pretain to someone new learning many different arts at once. But as for someone who studied lets say 20 years in kenpo or hung gar. Cross train five styles away. It won't really matter then because you already have strong art that you fight with.
> 
> As for BJJ...Personally I just don't like how it looks...Thats all I can say.
> 
> As for style vs style...thats nonsense...more like fighter vs fighter and the one with more skills and experience wins.


 
If you don't like it, don't train it.  Its that simple.  There are other ground arts to pick from.  As for the style vs. style....maybe you should practice what you preach, seeing that you tend to post those types of threads, and ask questions of that nature.  I've pointed a few out to you already.


----------



## MJS

stevebjj said:


> I agree with this completely. While I think that MJS, Jarrod and many others make a ton of sense when it comes to the subject of crosstraining, I disagree with them on one point. I don't believe that having a "base" art is necessary or beneficial. It's certainly a legitimate way to go and might work better for some. However, I don't believe that training in two discreet arts at the same time, even as a beginner, would be confusing at all. There are positives and negatives to each approach, but just etching into stone that "Thou shalt have a base art, or thou art wrong," is in my opinion a mistake.


 
Hey Steve,

I hear what you're saying.  Its just my opinion.  I'm sure others will have varying experiences.   I suppose in the end, it'll come down to what each person can handle.  You may have one that is a fast learner and capable of learning 2 different arts at the same time, and you may have another who can't.  Either way, whatever works best. 



> To keep this on topic, to defeat a wrestler... if you want to only use wing chun, I would recommend that you look for quality wrestlers to train with. The better the wrestlers, the better you will be able to use your training against them. However you might do it and regardless of technique used, defending against a quality wrestling take down, feeling what people mean by "heavy hips" and experiencing that freakish core strength makes will be all the difference.
> 
> I've said this many times in other discussions, but HOW you train anything is more important, IMO, than WHAT you train. In every other endeavor humans choose to learn, we learn by doing. For some reason, martial arts are the only thing I can think of where we often attempt to learn something complex without any kind of actual experience. We learn math by doing math. We learn to read by reading. We play baseball, soccer, or golf to gain experience in those sports. Wrestlers improve by wrestling.
> 
> But for some reason, when it comes to discussions like this, "How to defeat a wrestler," we forget this fundamental bit of human nature. I don't know. Maybe I'm oversimplifying the topic, but it seems to me that this thread could have been 2 posts long. "How do we defeat a wrestler?" Well, we would need to train to some degree WITH wrestlers. Simple as that. On a regular basis, we would need to figure out a way to get with some wrestlers and try to apply the theory. Without that crucial practicum, the entire thing would remain an academic exercise... kind of like learning to cook by memorizing cookbooks, but never stepping into the kitchen.


 
Well said.  Can't add anything to that!


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Excellent post Steve...I agree if you don't train in given art I suggest you train with Wrestlers. If someone wants to cross train an art I would suggest an art that gives you a little bit of both.

So yea I think MMA would be the next best step if you don't spar and do drills with wrestlers. Atleast in MMA you can constantly spar wrestlers.




stevebjj said:


> I agree with this completely. While I think that MJS, Jarrod and many others make a ton of sense when it comes to the subject of crosstraining, I disagree with them on one point. I don't believe that having a "base" art is necessary or beneficial. It's certainly a legitimate way to go and might work better for some. However, I don't believe that training in two discreet arts at the same time, even as a beginner, would be confusing at all. There are positives and negatives to each approach, but just etching into stone that "Thou shalt have a base art, or thou art wrong," is in my opinion a mistake.
> 
> To keep this on topic, to defeat a wrestler... if you want to only use wing chun, I would recommend that you look for quality wrestlers to train with. The better the wrestlers, the better you will be able to use your training against them. However you might do it and regardless of technique used, defending against a quality wrestling take down, feeling what people mean by "heavy hips" and experiencing that freakish core strength makes will be all the difference.
> 
> I've said this many times in other discussions, but HOW you train anything is more important, IMO, than WHAT you train. In every other endeavor humans choose to learn, we learn by doing. For some reason, martial arts are the only thing I can think of where we often attempt to learn something complex without any kind of actual experience. We learn math by doing math. We learn to read by reading. We play baseball, soccer, or golf to gain experience in those sports. Wrestlers improve by wrestling.
> 
> But for some reason, when it comes to discussions like this, "How to defeat a wrestler," we forget this fundamental bit of human nature. I don't know. Maybe I'm oversimplifying the topic, but it seems to me that this thread could have been 2 posts long. "How do we defeat a wrestler?" Well, we would need to train to some degree WITH wrestlers. Simple as that. On a regular basis, we would need to figure out a way to get with some wrestlers and try to apply the theory. Without that crucial practicum, the entire thing would remain an academic exercise... kind of like learning to cook by memorizing cookbooks, but never stepping into the kitchen.


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