# Differences between HKD and Kuk Sool



## jwreck

I've read a few places that Kuk Sool Won is merely repackaged HKD with a new name. A first, I was offended (Kuk Sool being my art of choice), then that gave way to mostly confusion. I can see some similarities, but not really. I studied HKD in Washington State but quit after two months because it seemed so limited. There were no kicks above the waist, and there were really very few strikes at all. Kuk Sool has a large arsenal of strikes as well as locks and throws. I've also read that HKD has basically all the kicks of TKD, so maybe the school I went to for HKD was some bastardized version? Anyway, I'd like to get your thoughts.


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## jwreck

Anyone?


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## fringe_dweller

Would love to help but I really don't know.

Bruce is a bit of a historian - I'm sure he could enlighten you as to the differences.

Grant


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## glad2bhere

Dear Jwreck: 

Answering your question in any kind of respectful detail would fill-up a whole lot more bandwidth than I think would be allowed here. However, let me give you some thoughts and maybe we can trade things back and forth to get you the information that you need.  here are some things to consider. 

1.) Korea after WW II wanted to identify a martial history or martial science around which to rally the citizenry of the time. Returning Ex-pats from around the Pacific Rim brought back their experiences and the single most organized was the MA of Japan. Many folks tried to form various amalgams of less organized Korean traditions from before WW II with the post WW II Japanese traditions with an eye towards forming a definitive national martial science. In their turn TKD, TSD, HKD, Kumdo and Kyudo all had their advocates for identifying their particular favorite as the premier Korean art. 

2.) In Hapkido there were many sub-groups who stirred together various mixes of technical skills. Coming from Choi you can generally split into two factions--- Early Choi and Late Choi. 

3.) Early Choi saw a huge effort to get the Hapkido arts to be a representative balance of grappling, kicking and striking. The more Japanese side represented by Ji Han Jae and Moo Woong Kim essentially mixed ju-jutsu (K. yu sool) with Taekyon and gave us what we have today. The more Korean/Chinese side represented by Joo Bang Lee and In Hyuk Suh gave us the Hwa Rang Do and Kuk Sool Won of today. 

4.) Late Choi saw a commitment to not mixing in material from other sources but rather in keeping things as much like Choi would like to have kept things. Kim, Yung Su and Lim Hyun-su are two good representatives of this lineage. 

5.) You asked about the difference between HwaRangDo and Kuk Sool Won and I must say that the single biggest similarity between the two arts is how hard each works to represent itself as disimilar from everybody else. This comes from the fact that early-on there was only room for one person at the top of the representative KMA pyramid and the people we are talking about were too short-sighted and immature to agree on who that person would be. The result was a falling out and each personality cooking-up some authority to validate their claim to fame. For instance, for years Joo Bang Lee told everyone that he was the 59th GM of a HwaRang lineage. 

6.) In actual  execution there has been a lot of work put into making things as different as possible. Each art has developed its own hyung or borrowed from places they would rather not talk about. Long stances and short stances come and go, as do emphasis on "Ki" or not. But motive, however, is not to produce a better art but rather to make sure that people see distinct differences between organizations so that there is less chance of membership erosion. Afterall if you learn to do a wrist-throw in a long stance that will mark you if you go to another school, yes? 
Hope this has been of some help. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere

Dear Folks: 

I am not sure if anyone wants to keep this string going or not. If there is still some interest in comparing and contrasting HRD with KSW I am wondering if anyone knows of a decent resource for the HRD hyung. GM Suh published his Red Book some years back and there is now a two volume set with black covers available through an ad in the TKD TIMES. However, I have not seen any comparable published material out of GM Joo Bang Lee since the three book set published back in the 1970-s.  Perhaps someone could offer a comment on the more recent tapes, yes? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## jwreck

I appreciate the reply Bruce, and yes, that was informative. I was actually asking about Hapkido and KSW though...I did figure it was mostly based in a "my style is better" competition type argument that led to many styles that are "different" but virtually the same.


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## Master Todd Miller

From my experience even in the Hapkido community there are major differances in the different organizations.

1. Direct Choi, Yong Sool influnced.

2. GM Ji, Han Jae influenced.  HRD, KSW are from this lineage.

3. Combination of many arts, not really Hapkido.

Some groups place more emphasis on kicking and others very little!

Some groups place more emphasis in alternative weapons, gun, Arnis type stick exct.


Just some thoughts

Todd M.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Todd: 

How do you feel about having less emphasis on the kicking in GM Lims' curriculum as compared with, say, GM Jis' Sin Moo Hapkido? Do you ever push the edge of the envelope and encourage your students to do more kicking over and above the material you train in from GM Lim?  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller

GM Lim and the Jungki Kwan teach many kicking techniques, all you need to do is askjavascript:smilie('')  I have always been very interested in the art of kicking, using the legs to strike, joint lock, block and off - balence.  From what I can gather Doju Nim Choi, Yong Sool practiced and used frequently.  He did not really teach in the sense demonstrating a kick and then asking his students to perform the kick.  He used the kicks in and with his technique, really inseparable, just movement and balence.  

In Korea kicking is a part of there upbringing so not as much time is needed by the time they get to Hapkido.

Peace

Todd Miller
smile


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## glad2bhere

Thanks, Todd. That helps clear things up for me a bit. The other question that comes to mind is the relationship with DRAJJ. 

(NOTE: I really don't want to start a discussion on any historical relationship between Choi and DRAJJ.) 

What I am asking about is the similarity in the material in GM Lims' curriculum and DRAJJ. The question comes to mind that if the material between these two arts is so close or at least approximates each other, why not just move closer to DRAJJ and network with one of the three or four main schools of that art? Have you found an advantage to connecting through a Korean interpretation of such material over simply studying the DRAJJ art itself?  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller

What I am asking about is the similarity in the material in GM Lims' curriculum and DRAJJ. The
                         question comes to mind that if the material between these two arts is so close or at least
                         approximates each other, why not just move closer to DRAJJ and network with one of the three or
                         four main schools of that art? Have you found an advantage to connecting through a Korean
                         interpretation of such material over simply studying the DRAJJ art itself? Thoughts?

There are differances in the two arts and from what I can see they are mostly cultural.  I have only seen a few DRAJJ schools and there are many similarities in what happens to opponent.

I have always liked the Korean frame of mind and have never seen ANYONE anywhere close to GM Lim, Hwe Jung Nim, Chief Master Lim, Master Shin just to name a few of the Jungki Kwan Masters.  I also like the way GM Lim teaches Hapkido through Guhapdo/Kumdo and vice versa.  It is like they are all a part of the classical Mudoin.

Take care
Todd Miller


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## glad2bhere

Dear Todd: 

Good points, all. I especially liked the emphasis on how there is a cadre of folks who have gathered around a particular view and have maintained a high level of quality where that is concerned. To my way of thinking that, more than anything else, is the sign of a sound and healthy lineage built around a sound and healthy approach. 

For myself, I still have problems with the mixture of Japanese and Korean sword material. I know that the Japanese and Koreans have been mixing things for generations. Some part of me still wishes that the sword that GM Lim promotes contained a higher % of Korean tradition rather than Japanese. There is a sadness that I feel to think that such traditions don't get every possible support from their own culture, but thats just one persons' opinion from over here in the US. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller

GM Lim studied Kumdo long before he studied Guhapdo/Iaido.  The fact is that  old day thought is to study from the best whatever country or state they are from.  I think this is what GM Lim has done dealing with Komei Sekkiguchi Sensei.  

Chung SuK Guhapdo (Blue Stone quick display sword}.  GM Lim has studied Korean & Japanese technique in order to give him understanding of both approaches.  Both his Hapkido & Guhapdo are Uniquely  Korean in tradition.  Developement through dilligent learning is wisdom in my opinion.

Take care
Todd Miller


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## jwreck

Well then let me ask this, why such a disparity in schools? As I said before, in the Hapkido school I attended briefly, I was greatly admonished for kicking above the waist during sparring, yet more often than not I read things about the versatile kicking style in Hapkido? WTF?


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## glad2bhere

Dear Todd: 

See, now thats where I begin to have a problem. Just exactly who is it that draws the line and where is it drawn? 

If we had been talking among a group of Western practitioners and they espoused a position such as "taking the best" from a number of sources, some traditionalist such as myself would come along and ask what loyalty or fealty did said person owe to his culture? 

Let's look at the score so far. 

1.) Choi returns from Japan with skills that he didn't have when he left at the age of ten. He claims to have studied under Takeda but does nothing to honor his teacher/student bond with his reported teacher. Instead he is honored as having started his own martial tradition. 

2.) A number of students who studied under Choi went on to start their own organizations and traditions. They acknowledge a connection with Choi for authenticity's sake, but only identify themselves as the heads of their respective lines. 

3.) There are three major Hapkido organizations (IHF, KHF, and the Kidohae) all of whom report promoting curriculums that trace back to Choi for authenticity, but none of which pay any funds to the Choi family. 

4.) We now have GM Lim who reports a direct lineage from Choi and has a cadre of practitioners to support him as well, but he is not above borrowing from Japanese traditions to "improve-on" his own material. 

You know, Todd, a guy could be forgiven for thinking that it is hypocrisy not neo-confucianism that drives the Hapkido world. When it comes to telling people how to pay fealty to their seniors, the Koreans seem to have written the book, letter and verse. But when it comes to "honoring" their place in the system or safe-guarding the integrity of the traditions,  then the book goes out the window. 

I think I can hold my own pretty well in a fight, so I am not so awful sure I need a person to tell me how to do that. I also think I use a sword pretty well though in Gods' own truth I don't know when I will ever have a need to demonstrate that prowess in mortal combat with a live blade. What I can always use more of is a bit more "Soul" in what I do and for that I expect the Koreans, Westerners, aborigines and anyone else who is interested to invest themselves to define the very heart of things. 

GM Lim is coming to Chicago and I for one would like to attend his presentation. What I am here to tell you is that I don't need someone to show me how to execute a technique against great resistance, how to crank harder, sweat more or condition myself with greater e'lan. The chances of my having to use my skills in a true life and death encounter are slim and none and even if the opportunity comes up my skills are sufficient to get the job done without doing time for manslaughter. What I do need is someone who is invested in 1,000 years of martial science to spill his guts about those traditions so that we can pass things on accurately to the next generation when the time comes. Otherwise, what I am hearing people report might as easily be said about any competent gym instructor. Now is GM Lim going to teach Korean tradition or is this going to be just one more Korean giving his particular take on what he thinks Korean traditions are "supposed to be". 

:soapbox: 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox

Hello all,

A few thoughts:

What is Korean Sword Tradition?  NONE.  The Koreans never had a sword culture - niether did the Chinese.  Only the Japanese, and only in the last 300 years or so has it been codified as a training tradition without the threat of constant war.  

Bruce, the Korean Sword tradition you are looking for does not exist - except maybe in the mind of a few Koreans who created it themselves of claim to study it from old books.  If a westerner said they had learned some stuff from a poorly diagramed book, he would be ridiculed.  If the Koreans learned Japanese sword tradition from the older fighting schools, be glad, especially if they then took those traditions and worked them into their own lexicon of technique.

As for the connection of Hapkido and DRAJJ - that is simple for those of us that believe the story of Choi, Yong Sul - he studied under Takeda longer than anyone and learned the whole syllabus - more than anyone has ever claimed - now, considering that Takeda named and codified DRAJJ himself (it therefore did not exist in that form before him), why should Hapkido feel obligated to the DRAJJ orgs. in Japan?  Choi did honor his teacher by claiming him (always) but changed the name of what he taught to not offend Korean sensibilities about the recently ousted Japanese.  

Now, about the DRAJJ in Japan - they cannot even define their own criteria for who is in charge - so why get involved in that mess?  In addition, since Choi was the only one to learn the whole system, why are the Japanese not running to Deagu for proper instruction?

Bruce, you need to get the real story of the Kidohae and the other Hapkido organizations to know who is paying what to whom - considering you will be hard pressed to find any Choi kin alive - except possibly his daughter in law.  And by the true story I mean the one other that told by the likes of the Suh/Seo family who have a real problem with the REAL story.

Hapkido comes from Choi, Yong Sul, not a non-existant Korean Royal Court instructor, or a telepathic Grandma - all these men have a single common thread, Choi, Yong Sul.  More than that, an even more potent thread that none of this stuff appears in Korea before Choi taught it widespread - and there are no other common bonds that these instructors share.

Bruce, you continue to call for "Korean-ness" of technique - then say we ignore the Chinese stuff - confusing.  Again, the very fact that an instructor who is Korean incorporates other cultural ideas into their repetoire begs the question - does that make them Korean - if not then how long does it take?  

Hey, since all this started in India why not call it all a curry and be done?

Always good to talk to you Bruce - you do keep me thinking!!

Kevin Sogor


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## Chris from CT

Hi Bruce.



> _Originally posted by glad2bhere _
> *4.) We now have GM Lim who reports a direct lineage from Choi and has a cadre of practitioners to support him as well, but he is not above borrowing from Japanese traditions to "improve-on" his own material. *


 
Choi, Yong-Sul borrowed the whole thing!   

Many of Choi's students (such as Suh, Bok-Sub, Ji Han-Jae, Lim, Hyun-Su, Rim Jong-Bae, etc.) have said that Choi, Yong Sul knew nothing about martial arts before being in Japan and it was there he learned a Japanese martial art, whether or not it was DRAJJ.  



> _Originally posted by glad2bhere _
> *When it comes to telling people how to pay fealty to their seniors, the Koreans seem to have written the book, letter and verse. But when it comes to "honoring" their place in the system or safe-guarding the integrity of the traditions, then the book goes out the window. *



I have been told that one of Choi, Yong-Suls major goals was to have Hapkido unified.   Unfortunately, everyone has their own way of doing it.  Some are aggressive in their ways such as the KHF while others, like GM Lim, just teaches what was passed down to him and builds relationships.  



> _Originally posted by glad2bhere _
> *What I am here to tell you is that I don't need someone to show me how to execute a technique against great resistance...*



But wouldn't it be nice to grow and learn how to make our existing techniques even more efficient so as we get older and our strength decreases we can still apply our techniques with great efficiency?  

I remember reading on the Dojang Digest about the benefits and downfalls of getting older in the martial arts.  Fight smarter, not harder was something I took out of that thread.  This is something that I personally have found with GM Lims teachings.  In the past, I was using too much strength and had to depend on my partner knowing what I was going to do to them to make it effective or they would be broken.  This hasnt been the case since learning Jung Ki Hapkido.  The principles that I have learned have made my techniques so much stronger while at the same time exerting ¼ of the strength that was needed previously and it no longer matters if the opponent knows whats coming or not.   I knew hundreds of techniques, but it really is the principles that make a good technique into a *great technique*.   If you want to work hard and grow, which I am sure you do, I would recommend you go to the seminar.  No matter where someone is in their Hapkido training, there will be something to benefit from going. 




> _Originally posted by glad2bhere _
> *The chances of my having to use my skills in a true life and death encounter are slim and none and even if the opportunity comes up my skills are sufficient to get the job done without doing time for manslaughter. *



With what I just said above about the principles, let me add that they also up your options as far as levels of force.  The off balancing that I have learned is one of the things that allows me to apply a technique on a resistant opponent (as in the case of a real attack) to take down and restrain without the added level of force that comes from striking.  Coming from years of dealing with toxically enhanced dumb-dumbs, let me say that some people have to be hit especially hard to have any affect if any.  The off balancing principles in Jung Ki Hapkido apply to anybody who was meant to have two arms, two legs and a head on top (or up their behinds) no matter what is surging through their systems.



> _Originally posted by glad2bhere _
> *What I do need is someone who is invested in 1,000 years of martial science to spill his guts about those traditions so that we can pass things on accurately to the next generation when the time comes. Otherwise, what I am hearing people report might as easily be said about any competent gym instructor. Now is GM Lim going to teach Korean tradition or is this going to be just one more Korean giving his particular take on what he thinks Korean traditions are "supposed to be". *



He will teach you what he learned from Choi, Yong-Sul.  So what is the difference from Choi, Yong-Sul teaching Korean traditions of Hapkido or GM Lim, besides one generation?  What Choi learned and what GM Lim teaches came from a Japanese art.  So it really depends on your definition of Korean traditions.  

If you want to learn some excellent technique from a good man who has spent many years with the founder of Hapkido, Choi, Yong-Sul, then you will enjoy it immensely.   If you want something that is strictly Korean, then you have your work cut out for you, no matter where you go in Hapkido.  


Take care Bruce. :asian:


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## glad2bhere

Dear Kevin and Chris: 

Well, you can't say things don't stay lively here!  

Let me try this in another way. 

The Koreans' DO have a sword tradition, but do NOT have a sword culture in the sense that the Japanese developed. What I mean is that the Koreans do have sword methods. Some of those methods they borrowed from the Japanese and some from the Chinese. Some they sorta modified for themselves. This process has been going on for generations and I think needs to be respected. That doesn't mean that they developed a CLASS such as the Samurai in Japan but they DO have a system of sword use and technique. The MYTBTJ may have been heavily borrowed from Chinese and Japanese traditions but the motive for taking what was taken, and the decision on how that material would be used was very much Korean--- by Koreans. I don't fault GM Lim for continuing the process into this generation. What I would like to see is considerably more emphasis on what has gone before, such that it is not lost, and then new material added a bit at a time so that students can see what is fundamentally Korean and what is being added and why. This is the same in the MYTBTJ where the authors identify what comes from where instead of just tossing it all together like a stew. 

As far as the Chinese influence, I know I have said this before but it bears saying one more time. The only reason that I advocate so strongly for recognition of Chinese influences is that the Japanese influences are so strong, so recent and so pervasive. It would be a mistake, I think to go wholely the other direction and only focus on Chinese traditions and ignore the Japanese influences. I CERTAINLY do NOT advocate making things up like the Kuk Sool Won people have done or as in the case of the HwaRangDo group! And while we are at it lets not forget the indigenous Korean practices such as Taek Kyon and Ssireum. I am not saying that we need to focus exclusively on these arts but lets admit to their influences and keep them safe in the transmissions of traditions. 

I just had a thought as I was getting ready to close this thread off, and this is more for folks who may not know me as do you, Kevin and Chris. Some people might think that I am being just a bit disrespectful to GM Lim in one way or another. For those lurking around the edges let me tell you that no arrogance or disrespect is intended and that I heartily encourage people to attend GM Lims seminars when he gets here in the Spring. What I hope to do in my writing is get people to do the very things that informed individuals are always pressing the KMA community to do. Ask questions--- require facts and documentation-----don't take "no" for an answer. I can take such a pro-active approach because I can use my years of experience to ask questions some gueppie lurking in the background is thinking, but afraid to ask. 

People with facts and experience at hand will respond and information will be broadcast. Fakes and frauds will pull away and give excuses. In both cases the KMA will be better for each camp being revealed for what it is.   FWIW. 

Best Wishes, (and a Happy New Year)

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller

The Korean sword styles we see today are heavily influenced by the Japanese and Chinese.  Take a look at some other Korean arts such as Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo, Kumdo, Kuk Sool Won, Hwarang Do, I could go on.  They are all influenced by each other.  The sword culture we see today is each group's take on it.  

The main thing to remember  is hard consistant training is where greatness and intuition come from, not a secret Japanese, Chinese or Korean tradition.

I think we all agree. Where just saying it differantly.

Take care
Todd M.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Todd: 

You are 100% right about the hard consistent training. With so many rationales given to do things in a half-spirited, haphazard fashion it is always a golden opportunity to train with dedication. 
I'm looking forward to the Spring Seminar. I just wish I would have been able to "follow" GM Lim back to the East Coast. Sounds like you folks are going to have a particularly fine time for the balance of the week! 

The only other point that I would stress is some need to continue to press for the integrity of the Korean arts as they have been defined. By this I mean that I get thoroughly disgusted with folks who routinely drag material from other places into their training curriculum. Okinawan and Japanese staff, nunchukas, sai, BJJ and a lot more has shown up in TKD and HKD schools. Its not that I have an issue with polishing or expanding ones' abilities. Its the representation of such material as somehow "traditional KMA" that bothers me. Certainly we can have a lively discussion on what constitutes "traditional", but I think everyone would agree that when someone starts using BJJ terminology to instruct in ground-fighting technique one needs to draw a line. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox

Hello All,

I was just wondering, we hear lots of talk about the relationship between Choi and Takeda, with talk on both sides. How about some on the inventive story of Kuk Sool Won?  Just a few points:

1.  Suh, In Hyuk was born in 1939, claimed to start training with Grandfather at age 5 - in 1944. (Here I take some big guesses, but bear with me...ok?) Grandfather was the last "Royal Court Instructor" - last Korean Court ended in 1910, so lets assume for argument he was 40 to have this post.  That means he was about 74 when he started training Suh, In Hyuk. OK, with me so far.

2. We know that Grandfather died during the Korean War from an injury, so between 1950 and 1953, so Suh, In Hyuk got around 6 - 9 years with Grandfather of training, making him around 11 - 14 years old.  

3. He then claims that he travelled the length of Korea going to monasteries getting techniques, quite a feat for an 11 year old after a major war... and then founded Kuk Sool Won in 1958, and officially in 1961.

 So, he collected all this as a child, walking around Korea going to monasteries getting techniques from monks that I guess taught no one else - and left no photos or traditions of their own (since none are in Korea today...).  So Suh, In Hyuk was the sole person in the world to learn and transmit all this information ( as a child no less...).  Whats more, if we are to believe the proses of long time Kuk Sool Won writer Jane Hallander, Suh studied many monks for a long time to get single techniques ( remember the story about the monk with the pipe?). 

So, in the course of 1825 days, Suh travelled to and learned from enough monks to build a system. 

4. Now, Seo, In Sun ( a brother) of Suh, took over the Korea Kido Hae in 1983, after it was abandoned for about 15 years, and with Suh founded the World Kido Assoc.  Now, they claim to be in control of all 31 traditional Korean martial arts, and all those that they deem to add, eg Combat HKD and Hoshinkido HKD, and issue certs to that extent, even though they are Kuk Sool Won, which they have said for years is NOT HKD.  Now, Seo has been ousted from Kido Hae, and starts a new orgainzation - not a Kuk Sool Won one, but a Hapkido one - strange- maybe to keep the cash cows of Combat HKD and Hoshinkido HKD happy,  hmmmm... (Even though he has no rank in HKD)

Do any of you remember the great stories written by Jane Hallander?  One of the most talented writers in martial arts. Remember when KSW had a story every month in one publication or another, well how did they all start?  With the same half page of drivel about how KSW was an ancient Korean martial art passed down from generation to generation?  Tell a lie often enough, right?

Suh claims to have trademarked KSW (although a recent check with US trademark registrations says no such record exists...) but in Canada, the trademark belong to a Master Moon, and in the UK it belongs to Fred Adams, niether have any connection to Suh - so were did the ancient stuff come from?  In fact, a branch of the Korea Hapkido Association in Soeul had a building called the Kuk Sool Won, not unlike the Kuk Ki Won for WTF, I know, I have some certs from there from the early 1970's - again no connection to Suh, In Hyuk. 

The first article written on Suh on his arrival to the US in 1974 states that he taught Kuk Sool Won Hapkido - and he learned from Choi, Yong Sul - but the story cahnged when he arrived in San Francisco.

Now a reality check, Suh came from Daegu City.  The home of Choi, Yong Sul, Suh even claims they were neighbors - but never trained together. OK, but seems strange considering the nature of HKD and KSW.

Last thing, what does KSW mean again, National Techniques Center right, so we could have KSW Baking and KSW Auto repair...by the way is it Kuk Sool Won or Kuk Sool?  I would never say Hapki for Hapkido.

A few thoughts,

Kevin Sogor


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## iron_ox

Hello all,

I am not trying to start a war, but there has been much talk about the relationship between Choi and Takeda, and I have Never seen a single post about the issue of the creation of KSW. 

I would love more data on the subjest if I am incorrect, but this is all from published accounts of the story.  I will happily provide the sources too.

Again, if I'm wrong, correct me by all means, but do so with some kind of proof, no a "Master told me so" thing -

Kevin Sogor


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## glad2bhere

Dear Kevin: 

If I can just dovetail on your post------

"......1. Suh, In Hyuk was born in 1939, claimed to start training with Grandfather at age 5 - in 1944. (Here I take some big guesses, but bear with me...ok?) Grandfather was the last "Royal Court Instructor" - last Korean Court ended in 1910, so lets assume for argument he was 40 to have this post. That means he was about 74 when he started training Suh, In Hyuk. OK, with me so far.

2. We know that Grandfather died during the Korean War from an injury, so between 1950 and 1953, so Suh, In Hyuk got around 6 - 9 years with Grandfather of training, making him around 11 - 14 years old. ......" 

GM Suh also made references to 5 notebooks left to him by his grandfather which contained considerable information about the material he would later use as the core of his system. There are, however, some interesting things that do not jive with Korean history at the turn of the last century. 

1.) The Korean military and the Royal Household were in such a shambles that the Korean King had to call in Chinese advisors to help build a working army. This same king also hired a certain Japanese Lt. Reizo to come to Korea and help build a "special unit" dedicated to security for the King and the Royal grounds. This same Lt. was murdered in a rebellion by Korean military vets who objected to the special treatment and pay that the new special unit members were getting. 

2.) The Chinese were ousted by the Japanese after a few years in the Sino-Japanese War in 1894. The Japanese tried to guide the Koreans to reform their governement and redefine the nature of how they defined a "state". Part of this was the Kabo Reforms of 1894 which included the development of a trained Police cadre through the establishment of a police academy. This was a pretty dismal failure and was crossed-up by the rise of nationalism in Japan that pressed for colonization in Korea. The result was that the Japanese took over security for Seoul and its precincts in 1907 and later took over the government, police and military in 1910. 

So what does this have to do with your post? Well, lets do that math over again. 

My understanding was that Grandfather Suh was considerably younger than 74 when he was injured in the Korean War. But lets just suppose thats accurate--- just for the sake of arguement. This would mean that he was born about 1880, yes? 
Even if he got a position with the palace security--- no mean feat in and of itself--- he would have only have been 20 or so in 1900, yes? Following this logic, he would have been sent home to his family's village sometime around 1907 to 1910 when he was 27 to 30, yes? This raises some very interesting questions. 

a.) The nature of palace security from 1880 to 1910 was so poor that various factions were constantly vying for who would control the grounds from time to time. Ultimately a group called the Guild of Peddlers volunteered to protect the king because they usual forces were either not competent or not trrust worthy. 

b.) Where did Grandfather Suh get his material to put in his notebooks? Chinese Advisors? Lt Reizo? The Japanese forces that took over after 1894 (when he was 14???) ? 

c.) It is a historical fact that the Korean forces were of such ppor condition and organization that the Japanese would only use them as beasts of burden to support their efforts in the Russo-Japanese War (1904). 

My sense is that much like Suahm Dosa is for Joo Bang Lee, and Choi Yong Sul is for GM Ji,  I will bet that Granfather Suh is more of a personality who is invoked to lend credibility to the KUK SUL WON curriculum. Nobody has actually read the notebooks, and GM Suh does not provide anymore details about where his material comes from. My suggestion is that we are dealing with personalities who are legends in their own minds and have bent things around to support their particular take on Korean martial traditions. I put this right up there with the folks who used to tell their students that the HwaRang warriors used TKD on the battlefield. :shrug: I don't fault GM Suh for propagating his take on Hapkido Mu-Do. I would have considerable more respect if his take was more in keeping with Korean martial traditions than in being yet one more revisionist contribution to Korean post-WW II mythology. 

BTW: I HAVE approached the KSW people down in Texas to address some of these questions. They don't want to talk about it. They believe what they want to believe and do not want to have to deal with facts. Whatever.
Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## jkn75

Hopefully, I can answer some of your concerns. I can't however address the History. Frankly, it is not discussed but I would like nothing more than a comprehensive history similar to Han Mu Do.

First, the Kidohae and Kuk Sool split over the issuing of certificates. As far as I know, In Hyuk Suh is no longer affiliated with the Kidohae or the World Kido Association. 

Second, Kuk Sool is used when referring to the martial art "I practice Kuk Sool." Kuk Sool won is used to refer to the association "There is a Kuk Sool Won tournament". TKD provides an example: they don't say " I practice International Tae Kwon Do Federation" they say "Tae Kwon Do". 

Third, some Kuk Sool people didn't like Jane Hallandar's writing. She got things wrong and cut and pasted the same 5 paragraphs in every article. However she loved Kuk Sool and did a lot for the association.

Fourth, Kuk Sool Won material in the textbooks is copyrighted and the Kuk Sool Won symbol is service marked. See here and search for Registration number 1234948. 

Fifth, see Han Mu Do for the history of Dr He Young Kimm and Kuk Sool and the use of Kuk Sool Won Hapkido (about page 7or 8).

Finally, Bruce what instructors in Texas have you contacted? I'm just curious. 

I hope this addresses some of the concerns about Kuk Sool Won. It is a good martial art even though it is similar to Hapkido, HRD, HMD, and DRAJJ. In the end though it comes down to quality instruction. There are good Kuk Sool instructors out there and regardless of the style, I would still be learning from them.


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## iron_ox

Hello all,

Thanks for the info. jkn75, but a few little items from your post...

Tae Kwon do is the name of a martial art, Kuk Sool Won (According to the trademark registration info you supplied) means Korean martial arts center - so what martial art is taught at this center?  I have an automobile, but when asked which kind I say Jeep, not auto.

Jane Hallander wrote for Suh, In Hyuk for close to 15 years, you say she got stuff wrong, well, who was directing the articles??  And yes she used the same 5 paragraphs at the beginning of each story, because Suh, In Hyuk needed something to legitimize his art other than saying "I made it all up myself..."

Interesting to note that a large piece of Han Mu Do was from the teaching of Kim, Moo-wong, a student of Choi Yong Sul.  I'll say it again, directly or indirectly, all roads in this vein seem to lead back to Great Grandmaster Choi, Yong Sul. 

The split of the KidoHae and the Suh/Seo Family is still up for debate, maybe the topic of a new thread.

In my opinion, if the teaching of Suh, In Hyuk is for you that is awesome.  

It is, as questioned in the first post of this thread, a repackaged version of the martial art taught by Choi, Yong Sul with some stuff that Suh, In Hyuk made up thrown in.  That is fine, but it is not fine to call it an ancient martial art, or related to Korean Royal Court Teaching or anything other than what it is, and that is the amagamation of the art of Choi, Yong Sul and additions by Suh, In Hyuk.  If that is your cup of tea, all power to ya.

Bruce, I loved the true historical evidence, many thanks, as always a great read...

New Year is upon us, Yahoo!

Kevin Sogor


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## glad2bhere

Dear JKN: 

This was about a year ago. I had been involved in pretty heavy research into the MYTBTJ and Korean sword. Since I get not a few questions about comparing and contrasting various Hapkido arts I had planned to talk with a Mr. Harmon who had published a couple of articles in BLACK BELT magazine. Most of the questions were a bit technical, but nothing for anyone to be defensive about. In fairness, the first person I talked to was very helpful and cordial and his name I wish I COULD remember. Since he made reference to Mr. Harmon being at the school "over there" I assume that he was in the Houston area though perhaps across town from the main school. The next two were about as arrogant and snotty as ever I have run into. When they finally learned that I was calling from Chicago they put me on to Mike Hill the head instructor of the KUK SOOL WON folks here. I have to tell you that he was about as arrogant as the other two gentlemen. The message I seemed to get from the latter three gentlement was that I would be very lucky to ever be chosen to train in GM Suhs' MA, that they don't spend time discussing KSW material with non-members and that if I ever thought I wanted to try joining they would be willing to take a look at my technique and consider me for possible membership. I figured that any people who were that full of themselves would never find room for my growth in their lifestyles. However I was left to consider if they were that abrasive with everybody who call or if the fact that I was an experienced KMA asking intelligent questions put them off. Anyhow, as much as I have admired the wonderful attention to detail in their technique, I don't think you could drag me into a school full of those kinds of individuals. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox

Hey Bruce,

Great point!  I have had two KSW Black Belts at my dojang in the last year, one made locally here in Chicago, one from some other school.  

Get this, at my own school, I was "advised" not to ask questions about KSW history or the founder or these two would leave (advised by the student of mine who brought them) - well I figuered their technique could talk for them - and it did, volumes.

I disagree that there is refined technique here, not from what I saw.  Many of the techniques were over dramatic and many simply didn't work.  What's more wierd is that the starting position for say a punch defence was so far apart from each other that the end of the punch was an arms length away from the defender.  I am still let puzzled over that day.

OK, I know that they are two from a group, but still if this is representative of the KSW technique in general, I'll stick to boring old Hapkido.

Kevin Sogor


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## glad2bhere

Dear Kevin: 

"........I disagree that there is refined technique here, not from what I saw. Many of the techniques were over dramatic and many simply didn't work. What's more wierd is that the starting position for say a punch defence was so far apart from each other that the end of the punch was an arms length away from the defender. I am still let puzzled over that day....." 

Funny you bring this up as I have had some odd experiences with KS people over the last few years.  They seem to be very good at what they do, but what they do has some pretty wobbly foundations in actual application.  The combat distance you mentioned is one example as are the elongated stances. I trained in Shutokan for quite a few years and as long and painful as those stances were to train in, our students never used them in S-D drills or situations.  In like manner there are a number of movements that I have seen KS people do which have legit and effective S-D applications but never seem to get beyond the theatrical or "after thought" stage in application. The much seen "rolling block" is used often as a flourish at the end of a technique but I have never seen anyone use it as an initial response to an attack where  it would be at its most effective. 

Curous stuff, this. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox

Hey Bruce,

I use rolling blocks aimed at pressure points all the time! My students and I can show you the bruises some time. LOL 

(Yahoo for me right?) 


 

Kevin Sogor


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## jkn75

If you look at the preface to the Kuk Sool Won textbooks, it says it most simply: Kuk Sool is not so much a martial art as it is a survey of the Korean Martial arts tradition. So are things going to overlap, yes. 

All of these Grandmasters trained in the same region, is it beyond the realm of thinking that they at some point trained together, no. 

It is not trademark information I supplied. This came from the federal government and it was provided because noone else could find it and it was said that Suh claimed to have trademarks. It was provided for the purpose that Kuk Sool Won is in fact trademarked. 

You wanted to know what the difference between Kuk Sool and Kuk Sool Won was. If you want to know what is taught at a Korean Martial Arts center walk in and observe a class. There are also textbooks, DVDs and handbooks that show what we do in Kuk Sool. You will see similarities to  Hapkido, etc. To be fair, there are similarities in Martial Arts from China, Japan, and Korea. 

Choi, Yong Sul's background is somewhat cloudy. How did he learn his stuff? Was it just DRAJJ plus what he decided to throw in? Why is that OK for the basis of Hapkido but if someone uses Hapkido + something else to start a Martial Art, that's bad. I see the problem that you all have, that In Hyuk Suh will not admit to Hapkido+his stuff. 

This is a great discussion. You guys have a lot of knowledge. I hope I have added somewhat to your understanding.


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## glad2bhere

Dear JKN: 

"......Why is that OK for the basis of Hapkido but if someone uses Hapkido + something else to start a Martial Art, that's bad. I see the problem that you all have, that In Hyuk Suh will not admit to Hapkido+his stuff....." 

Thats pretty close for me, but please let me tweak it just a bit, 'kay? 

My personal issue is now, and has always been that it is not too important to cause someone to admit that they are just a different tune formed from the same common melody. Rather, I would simply appreciate it if folks had been a bit more forthcoming or shot a little straighter with people down through the years. For example, its not all THAT important that Joo Bang Lee own that he got the greater portion of his stuff from Choi. What I would hope is that he not have constructed all the stuff about being the 59th grandmaster of a HwaRang lineage going back to the HwaRang Warriors. The same goes for In Hyuk Suh. OK, so he developed his own spin on Chois material. Thats fine, but why embellish it with tales that suggest he tramped Korea seeking out many masters, and combined that with material from notebooks his grandfather left him. I still have a copy of Kwang Sik Myungs original gold book ("Art of Masters") where he talks about getting his inspiration from a retreat into the mountains. Did he think noone would find out he trained under Han Jae Ji? 

I know some people go the other way and say that none of this makes ANY difference, and to an extent that is probably true. However, I can't shake the feeling that there is simply something not right about someone who misrepresents or embellishes the truth to validate his efforts. It just feels "Cheesy", ya know? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## greendragon

<<You know, Todd, a guy could be forgiven for thinking that it is hypocrisy not neo-confucianism that drives the Hapkido world. >>

Actually Confucianism has nothing to do with Hapkido or martial arts.  Confucists thought martial arts should not be practiced and wanted and tried to do away with them.  Hapkido and martial arts are more akin to Buddhism and Taoism and have nothing to do with Confucianism.


<<GM Lim is coming to Chicago and I for one would like to attend his presentation. What I am here to tell you is that I don't need someone to show me how to execute a technique against great resistance, how to crank harder, sweat more or condition myself with greater e'lan. >>

Why not?  No disrespect but it sounds like you have it all figured out.  So why do you ask so many questions?  Why do you need someone to give you more "soul"?   Sounds like you need a guru or a spiritual leader to follow instead of a hardcore down to earth Hapkido Master.  I think in the Hapkido world you will find your "soul" while you sweat, crank harder, and learn how to execute a technique against great resistance.  Being that Hapkido comes from a line of martial artists that pride themselves in serious self defense and looking further back to the times of Zen Buddhism in martial arts whether it is the Rinzai or the Soto sect the feeling is that you learn thru your own sweat and doing. To say you don't need that is amusing to me. Doing builds your discipline which in turn builds your willpower.  Again no disrespect but it sounds like you want Hapkido to be a neat little intellectual exercise more like a short philosophy or history class, well first and foremost Hapkido is for battle.  That means doing techniques against people that want to do you harm which means strong resistance with little or no verbal massage... IMHO
                                          Michael Tomlinson


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## jkn75

Bruce,

I definitely see your point and of course you don't need me to reassure you that they are valid. After reading a comprehensive history of someone (my favorite example is Dr. He Young Kimm), the whole going master to master thing is not going to fly unless names are named. Did In Hyuk Suh get instruction from his Grandfather and some training manuals from him? It is possible but with the history being what it is, it is not concrete. Who was the Great Monk of the North? (For my theory see my second post from this thread)

There are definitely things out there that could be cleared up but In Hyuk Suh is sticking to his story and as of yet hasn't revealed everything about himself. Hopefully that day comes soon. 

:asian:


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## glad2bhere

Dear Michael: 

".......Why not? No disrespect but it sounds like you have it all figured out. So why do you ask so many questions? Why do you need someone to give you more "soul"? Sounds like you need a guru or a spiritual leader to follow instead of a hardcore down to earth Hapkido Master. I think in the Hapkido world you will find your "soul" while you sweat, crank harder, and learn how to execute a technique against great resistance. Being that Hapkido comes from a line of martial artists that pride themselves in serious self defense and looking further back to the times of Zen Buddhism in martial arts whether it is the Rinzai or the Soto sect the feeling is that you learn thru your own sweat and doing. To say you don't need that is amusing to me......" 

I think you may have taken what I said out of the context in which it was expressed.  If you tease out just that particule statement it does seem that what I am saying is that I am above whatever someone would have to teach me. But if you read the entire passage, you will probably see that I am saying something quite different. 

I advocate for the KMA not just as a Physical Education or physical culture but a way of living ones life. This includes not just behaviors but values or an ethos as well. What I was saying was that I don't need one more person to come to my town, represent himself as a teacher and limit his transmission to teaching me how to hurt people. What I was saying was that I am already pretty competent at hurting people if I have to. Rather, I need someone who can come to my town show me how various material is used on the mat, but also demonstrate how he has come to embody the art he practices throughout his life. This has been the traditional position of the teacher in Korean culture for generations. I think if you asked most people they would say that they don't need such mentoring. I think the word you used was "guru". However---- look what happens when a particular teacher is not even up to such responsibilities. Suddenly people start talking about fraud, alcoholic behavior, selling certs, risque or inappropriate relationships with students and so forth.  

Here in the States there are a large number of folks who believe that high profile figures in sports and entertainment should be held to a different standard of conduct because of their visibility and influence over the population.  I know that a great number of people certainly expect school teachers to be mentors and good role models for their students.  Is this too much to ask of individuals who purport to represent a culture and activity dedicated to producing a higher quality human being?  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## greendragon

Bruce,
I agree with you on that one, I too have butted my head into the wall about how the moral, physical, and spiritual just don't seem to match up with a lot of the gm's in the martial arts.. so maybe I did read your post wrong,, sorry dude,,, 
It seems like we see this kind of thing over and over with the Korean Martial Arts and ALL martial arts for that matter. 

Being a high school teacher I am well aware that I am held to a different standard and I am expected to morally and ethically act in a certain manner... for me... it is no problem because I feel that I should act that way and live my life accordingly anyway so the extra social pressure put on me is ok with me... am I politically correct all the time? Not even close but there are boundaries in my social and professional life that I will never cross.. but you can still voice your opinion..

I also agree with you about the ridiculous double standard given to athletes etc.. it makes me want to vomit.. and I am an old college athlete and coach.  Give me a player that wants to work out and get better and that is what makes coaching enjoyable, not all the glamour and glitz..  oh and we DID win the state championship in High School Football this year at my high school here in Florida. A great group of guys that played all year as a team and not a bunch of ego all stars... it was cool to see and be a part of.
Take care and happy training...
                                              Michael Tomlinson


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## jwreck

glad2bhere, 

if you'd still like to contact master Harmon, here is his email adress kuksoolcl@cs.com . From my experience with him I'm sure he'd be willing to help. Also, here is our school website here.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Jwreck and Michael: 

Many thanks for your respective contributions. 

Oh, and Happy New Year!! 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller

I know some people go the other way and say that none of this makes ANY difference, and to an extent that is probably true. However, I can't shake the feeling that there is simply something not right about someone who misrepresents or embellishes the truth to validate his efforts. It just feels "Cheesy", ya know? 

Hapkido training is about  developement.   Develope the body through hard training.    Develope the mind through hard training.  Develope the charachter through hard training.

Hapkido is about truth,

With who you are and where you have been (Your history).

Do the techniques work and make sense?

It almost seems that many of Doju Nim Choi's students learned the physical tech.  but missed the Hapki side.    Just a thought.

Enough rambleing

Todd Miller


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## glad2bhere

Dear Todd: 

".......It almost seems that many of Doju Nim Choi's students learned the physical tech. but missed the Hapki side. Just a thought......." 

I wouldn't try to speak regarding the Late Choi students such as GM Lim, but I would be the first to go out on a limb and state that this is probably very true of the Early Choi students (pre-1963). 

My experience in researching Hapkido seems to support that while various individuals of standing in the HKD community talk a very good line about exotic belief systems and philosophies, their lifestyles and histories don't seem to support that they have actually inculcated such belief systems into their daily lives so as to represent living mentors of this sort of lifestyle. Instead what I see is a lot of political back-biting, ego-involvement, mean-spirited-ness and small-minded-ness----- in short---- all of those things which a lifetime of training is suppose to help us overcome. For me, I identify a tree by the fruit that it bears. Talk is very cheap and certs and licenses are a hundred a penny (maybe almost literally).  A teacher is one who teaches, and more so by example. Somewhere this seems to have gotten lost. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller

all of those things which a lifetime of training is suppose to help us overcome. For me, I identify a tree by the fruit that it bears. Talk is very cheap and certs and licenses are a hundred a penny (maybe almost literally). A teacher is one who teaches, and more so by example. Somewhere this seems to have gotten lost. 

I think the problem comes in when people think that Hapkido or any old style traditional martial art will make them rich or even moderatly wealthy!   We all know people in every walk of martial arts life that have done this and then look at what  rich traditions become.  I agree that the person or persons I call teacher must have some qualities such as honesty, integrity and careing about there students and what there teacher has passed down to them.  

Todd M.


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## Andi

Hi guys,

interesting discussion. For a while now I've been wanting to get into HKD, but there's no schools around me for about a hundred miles so I've not pursued it, but today I found out there's a KS school not too far away.

However, looking through this thread there seems to be a fair bit of negative stuff about KS, and I'm not sure if it's worth me trying it. I suppose I won't be particularly exposed to much of the politics to start with, but I've heard KS is quite big on the theory and history of the art. Now if they teach what appears to be a pack of lies about the history, I'm going to have a problem regurgitating it when it comes to test times and just generally. Or is it just little adjustments to the truth? Not that I'd be too happy with that either, but you're going to get that in every system.

Any input you might have would be appreciated. Also, could any KS practitioners have a look at this site and see if it looks about right? Ta. It's phrases like 





> "For self-defence, Kuk Sool is unsurpassed."


  and 





> "We are a black belt school and you will recieve instruction over a four year period, which will result in your promotion to black belt at the conclusion."


  that make me a bit hesitant.

(This is all a bit academic at the moment, I won't be free to train for a few months anyway!)


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## Disco

"We are a black belt school and you will recieve instruction over a four year period, which will result in your promotion to black belt at the conclusion."  

that make me a bit hesitant.

If I may, what actually makes you hesitant about that statement?


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## glad2bhere

Dear Disco: 

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that a school offers a 4 year program with an eye towards preparing a student to test for their Cho-dan by the end of that period. I have students who are really dedicated, and some that sorta pick and choose with their training. Were I a commercial school, I think I would want to make sure that if the student didn't hold up their end, I would not be held responsible for not making things happen. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco

Bruce, what you say makes sense. I think that the statement - "that makes me a bit hesitant", was directed at the length of time it would take to become a BB. Perhaps someone feels that 4 yrs is to long of a period to commit to. On the other hand, 4 yrs is most likely the norm for this school. I'm pretty sure that a student who excells, will have a shorter time line.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Disco: 

I know what you are saying. I just had a go-round with Frank over on BUDO-SEEK on a closely related subject and still can't figure how such thinking come into KMA. 

The first issue is the idea that 4 years is a long time. Maybe its because people can earn a BB in TKD in two years, I don't know. In the kwan I belong to it takes five years. But it galls me because the idea of getting a BB in Hapkido after a couple of years has worked its way into the KMA community. 

Another issue is the idea that Hapkido is whatever someone puts together. Who starts this stuff?  I'm trying to figure out what other martial art someone can put together what they want, study as little as they want and then feel that they deserve to be validated as a legit art. 

Sometimes I think all that ugliness of a few months back was just the tip of the iceberg. Underneath, where people can't see, I am getting the feeling that there are entrenched beliefs that have more to do with buying image than learning a MA.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Andi

That statement on their site only concerned me insofar as it sounded like a guarantee of getting your first degree by some specific point. I thought it sounded a bit McDojangish or like one of them ads at the back of Black Belt. I wasn't suggesting four years was too long to reach a decent level of proficiency. The mere fact that they say four years and not six months is probably a good sign. It's probably just a few poorly constructed phrases that I'm picking up on.

Any thoughts on my other questions at all? Is Kuk Sool worth bothering about as an alternative to (unavailable) HKD?


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## iron_ox

Hey Andi,

I think you are on the money to be a sceptic!  This KSW stuff is for all intense and purposes an "American" import, and as such works on that business model.  So, when they say  "hang around for 4 years to Black Belt, that is what they mean.  I was around in Norwich when Grand Poo-Bah Suh showed up to import KSW to Britain - they could hardly contain themselves when they heard that the name KSW was trademarked already in Britain...in fact, they had to use a bunch of other language to write the first real articles about it.  I saw the first round of photos not put in the magazines, and have never seen a punch block attempt done at 6 feet away from someone.  

Look, Suh made this stuff up from a very little Hapkido and a little Northern style kung-fu - I have had several KSW guys train at my school, and the vast majority of THEIR stuff didn't work at all (maybe it was just those three) - I leave that for you to decide.

Anyway, I see you live in Birmingham, I wll call my friends in the area and see what else they can recommend.

Just one other point that I will question forever: KSW means "National Skills" - this could be then KSW gardening, KSW driving, for what it is worth, when Suh first showed up in the US, he was interviewed by a magazine and said he was teaching Hapkido from the training of Grandmaster Choi, Yong Sul.  Then, he realized how far down the ranking food tree he was, and by the time he got to San Francisco, he was the blah-blah generation of KSW, only to change it again after it was found out he created it himself...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## glad2bhere

Dear Kevin: 

Have a copy of SECRETS OF SEVEN STAR PRAYING MANTIS and can readily see many connections between the manner in which the body is used in this art and that of Kuk Sool. I had been pressing the relationship between Long Fist and Tan Tui in my research and it had been going nowhere. Hooking, control of the elbow and the same easy transition from parry to strike are all evident.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## jkn75

There are good people in Kuk Sool and the techniques you learn are effective. Those choice of phrases (kuk sool unsurpassed and 4 years to black belt) are a little poor, I personally wouldn't use them. 

The one advantage of Kuk Sool is they teach all ranges. You learn punching and kicking, wrist and clothing grabs, and ground fighting and grappling. 

I would encourage you to go visit the instructor and take a look at a class. If you like the instructor, give some classes a try. Some people like Kuk Sool, and others obviously don't. Good luck to you.


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## glad2bhere

There are also some KSW derivatives including Master Yang out of California and Master Timmerman out of Canada. Same beer, but different ways of grabbing the mug, ne?   

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Andi

Kevin,

if you do hear of any good instructors around here I'd be very grateful to know about it, so thanks a lot for that. I've heard a few things about the political side of things over at Norwich, not too much, but enough to make me slightly cautious. But I think I will go down and see what they're about, I've got nowt to lose. Thanks for everybody's help.


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## jwreck

One thing I noticed is that his curriculum is a little off from the textbooks. Things he has you doing as a brown belt we did as a blue belt. However, I agree you should see it in person first, then make your judgement.


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## kwanjang

Kevin writes:
Just one other point that I will question forever: KSW means "National Skills" - this could be then KSW gardening, KSW driving, for what it is worth, when Suh first showed up in the US, he was interviewed by a magazine and said he was teaching Hapkido from the training of Grandmaster Choi, Yong Sul.  Then, he realized how far down the ranking food tree he was, and by the time he got to San Francisco, he was the blah-blah generation of KSW, only to change it again after it was found out he created it himself...

Sincerely,
Kevin Sogor

Greetings:
Kuk is National, Sool can (and in the case of Kuk Sool it does) mean technique (if we talk martial arts, we can assume martial art technique).  So, the art is Kuk Sool (National Martial Art), and the association is WON.

FWIW.  Anyone who thinks GM Suh's technique is not good has never been on the mat with him.  Because I don't care for his business ethics, I am not a fan of his (as most folks know); however, the man is a very skilled martial artist, and regardless of our feelings this does not change.

Bruce:
I saw on another thread that you mentioned my name  To fill in some of the blanks.

I traveled to Chicago by car (11 hours), I stayed overnight and left the next early morning to Houston, TX and did a seminar of Friday and another on Saturday.  I left Houston on Sunday morning, got off the plane, and taught five hours in Chicago (you were there).  Enjoyed the party after the event, and drove home another 11 hours.  I had a blast 

I hear some folks think I am too commercial.  Well, let me tell you this.  I  donated every single penny that was taken in from the Chicago seminar to a Chicago Instructor, because I heard he was down on his luck.  

I charge $45.00 per person for a weekend seminar (even though I am offered a lot more by some), and I charge $35.00 for a lifetime membership in my association.  I don't tell folks they have to buy my certificates, I don't tell them they have to have me over for a seminar, I don't tell them how to run their business, and if they never want to see me again, I don't bother them.  

If this is "too commercial", come and see my bank account.  I am a poor (but very happy) man, my love is teaching Korean martial arts, I will get on the mat to work with anyone who is interested at any time, I still carry my white belt (because I am still a student), and I will definitely never get rich from what I'm doing.  

I am 65 years old, I still do demos (despite the fact that I know they no longer are as good as they should be), and I will see you all in Jackson when I am 75 years old, because I love the arts and the people who go there to share and learn from one another.  BTW, I teach free in Jackson too.  So much for my commercialism.

Lastly, I don't sling mud or criticise without reason (or certainty of my critique), because in MY martial art that is simply not the Do.
Rudy W. Timmerman


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## kwanjang

Bruce writes:
There are also some KSW derivatives including Master Yang out of California and Master Timmerman out of Canada. Same beer, but different ways of grabbing the mug, ne?   

Hello Bruce:
As JWRECK observed, there are some differences in the way the WKSA curriculum is now taught and the book (especially the old red book).  If you look further down the road, you will notice that there are actually MANY differences since GM Suh had his first seminar in the US (I was there).  IMHO, this is just a natural evolution that takes place and, if there are NO books or tapes, this is not even noticed.  As Kuk Sool hit the US markets, there was a need to make some changes in order for the art (and the founder) to prosper, and so GM Suh set about making the art more palatable for the US market.

The art I teach was pretty much the same as it was in the beginning.  My Instructor, GM Pak, did not want to change things.  I still teach pretty much what I was taught (although I'm sure I have "personalized" some stuff), so that is the reason why I grab the mug differently

There was some talk about the art not being a solid martial art.  I think that is nonsense.  The art is as good as any art out there; however, there IS a disturbing trend to promote folks who are not good enough to pass the test.  IMHO, this is going to come back and haunt the Kuk Sool folks.  I have studied martial arts for 54 years, and I have (and still do) traveled the world over to learn and teach.  I can say with all confidence that Master Sung Jin Suh (GM Suhs first born son) is one of the most accomplished martial arists out there.  Sung Jin, KJN was taught by GM Seo for the first few decades of his life, and he is now taught by his dad.  His skills are simply awesome, and he is a pretty good person to boot.  Too bad he is going to inherit a heck of a mess.

On Jane Hallander.
Jane was a friend of mine, and neither she nor Robert Young, the Editor of BB, were fans of GM Suh.  As it was often my job to take care of these folks at WKSA functions, I can tell you without hesitation that their relationship with WKSA was purely a business relationship. Jane had an amazing collection of information on Kuk Sool (and several other martial arts) on her laptop, and much of the Kuk Sool information was gathered while sitting in my hotel room with Mr. Young (and any other Masters who enjoyed a nip of Canadian snakebite medicine).  As some of you noticed, the articles were simply put together by taking the information she had on her laptop and whatever information the particular subject of the story wanted to add.  If that person had NO information, she could handle it all by herself.  She was an authority on the art, and whoever inherited that laptop has enough articles to last a lifetime.
Rudy


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## glad2bhere

Dear Rudy: 

It is my fervent wish that a host of folks who pass themselves off as leaders in the Hapkido arts would take even a single page from your notebook and give your approach to the martial arts a trial spin. As a teacher the true joy I have taken from attending your presentations is the result of watching someone who loves helping people understand and remember what you have to share. In my personal experience I have been to any number of seminars and events where those in attendence were overwhelmed with jargon and swamped with technical information. Your methodical and supportive manner assures folks that they will take away select portions of martial arts information that they can review and practice on their own when they return to their individual classes. I am sure this is the fundamental cause for so many people seeking you out and aligning with your organization. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang

Bruce:
You are making me blush my friend  Just found this forum by accident, and it has some great stuff on it.  I might contact you to get a bit more familiar with posting here.  Until then, just give me a boot to the head anytime I make errors in posting


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## kwanjang

I have a confession.  I hit the send button on one of my posts here before I checked my post for accuracy.  I am actually younger than I look  I am 64, not 65 as I posted.

I have one more thing to add.  I am not sure who, but someone felt that Kuk Sool is NOT Hap Ki Do.  That may be true; however, if what I do is not Hap Ki Do, then Grand Masters Kimm and JR West also practice some other art form.  Our technique is VERY much alike.  I have seen many other Hap Ki Do practitioners who are much harder in their approach and perhaps even a bit more linear.  There IS a significant difference between some of the arts that claim to be Hap Ki Do, but I am not sure where the exact line is that makes on the real thing and others not.  

To be sure, we all agree that combat Hap Ki Do is not from the same root, and I think even JP himself would agree.  I am not talking about his art, I am talking about some of the arts like Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do, Sin Moo, Hwa Rang, Tukang Mu Sool, Han Mu Do, Dahn Mu Do, and Kong Shin Bup.

Even some of the founders claim NOT to be Hap Ki Do, yet, their technique (and that of some of the others) most certainly overlaps in some areas.  I find it near impossible to say for certain that one IS and another is not of the same root.  This brings me to my pet conclusion whenever I'm in doubt.  IMHO, there is just too much natural influence from one country that has invaded another to be ignored.  With Korea having been invaded by both China and Japan, it stands to reason that prudent Koreans (interested in nothing else but preserving their hide) would grab a good technique if they saw one, add it to their bag of tricks, and damn the origin.

Even if we disregard war as a reason for adopting the best techniques, the common belief is that GM Choi studied in Japan; hence, what many claim to be pure Hap Ki Do has a definite Japanese flavor.  GM Ji studied with GM Choi, so the flavor continues but has some added ingredients.  GM Suh, Seo, and Pak all trained with GM Choi and added their personal favorite ingredients.  

In Northern Canada, you can hardly tell the Michigan Youpers apart from Canadians.  They both say eh, and they even look alike... a Bud in both hands.  No one can get me to believe that Koreans and Chinese who lived side by each for so long did not use very similar martial art techniques.  Just like I can't tell who started the "eh" thing (Michiganders or Canucks), I believe one could not say which of their particular flavor of martial art was Korean and which was Chinese.

When GM Suh organized his Kuk Sool, he had one thing in mind... to systemize ALL of the Korean arts he could find, including the particular art that was practiced in the border region.  Did he succeed, heck who knows.  All I know is that he told me first hand that this was his intent when he launched Kuk Sool.  With documentation as scarce as it is, all we can do is make an intelligent decision who and what to believe.  Such decisions are purely personal (unless someone can SHOW me the documentation to prove otherwise.  Until then, I think I'll just be happy to continue to practice whatever art they teach, and leave the worrying about where things originated and who has the right to call his art Hap Ki Do to Bruce et al.  I don't envy you my friend, because I strongly believe you are chasing a greased pig on a slippery slope.  IMHO the entire issue is not worth worrying over, certainly not worth arguing over, and never ending.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Rudy: 

Sorry about the blushing thing, but I want to make a response to something you said and before I do I need to make two things clear for whoever else is reading this. One, is that I am not a member of your NKMAA so what I am about to write gets me no currency with the organization. The second is that I have something of a reputation as a gadfly for KMA leadership. When I see someone screwing-up I think it needs to be brought forward and talked about as uncomfortable as it might seem at the time. However, I think it is also imperative that when someone is doing great things, and is an example of HOW-TO do something that likewise needs to be brought forward so folks can learn from that, too.  So, I said all of that to say this, and I base it on the two times we have spent time together in an educational setting. I call it 

Five Things Rudy does Right at His Seminars. 

1.) When Rudy starts his seminars he makes it clear what he knows, what he doesn't. This a far cry from some folks who want their attendees to think they have the market cornered on information. What makes this important is that Rudy then identifies a specific and discrete amount of information or material upon which he is going to focus at that event. I am NOT talking about telling people that "we'll be covering basic techniques" or "we'll be covering sword techniques". At the seminar I was at Rudy introduced himself and indicated that we would be covering the 10 introductory techniques to Kong Shin Bup. I suppose he could have said "we're going to work on wrist locks today" but think of how extensive such a goal would be. Rather he identified a small and reasonable number of skills people would want to walk away from the seminar with. 

2.) Rudy guides little--- and with a light touch. At first glance people might balk as "guides little" might suggest that Rudy is sitting back and not doing his job. In fact, quite the opposite. As a teacher he can quickly identify a single aspect that person can work on to improve a technique, make sure the person understands the comments and then moves on to let that person work. 15 corrections in 14 minutes and micro-managing is defintiely not his way, thank gawd. 

3.) Rudy is not afraid to say things like, "I don't know", "I'm not sure", "we don't have that in the material I teach", or "thats not the way we do it". Most of the folks whose events I visit seem to have the need to let people know (however covertly) that they have all the answers and so does their art. Rudy teaches what he teaches, and what you see is what you get. 

4.) Rudys' instruction model follows the common model for all good instructors. As a developing teacher I was advised repeatedly that a good teacher will "tell you what he is going to teach you, teach you what he said he was going to teach you and then tell you what he taught you". Visiting Rudys' class, he tells the practitioners what he is going to teach, then teaches the technique, then summarizes what he has taught. An excellent model that all but guarentees that students will remember what they experienced. Certainly with his knowledge base Rudy could teach a technique and then swamp the attendees with 15 variations, but why? 

5.) Finally, Rudy works within the context of an organized curriculum. Now I know just about everyone has a bunch of techniques that they teach and they then identify what they teach as an art. Rudy uses an organized curriculum such that at any given time he can say "you are here". Furthermore, when people ask about ancillary material he can say things like "that is over here" in relation to what he is teaching that day. 

Now, I will say again that this is not written to necessarily toot Rudys' horn. Honestly if you go to JR Wests' events through the USKMAF you will see all of the same qualities. These folks are teachers in the best sense. People who attend their events come away knowing more than they did before, connecting with like minded practitioners and are shielded from petty politics and bickering. I write this because people need to know that when folks are doing things right they deserve to be both recognized and emmulated. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## jwreck

> The art is as good as any art out there; however, there IS a disturbing trend to promote folks who are not good enough to pass the test.


This along with the contracts, fees, and baby step method of teaching has caused me to abandon KSW, at least at the school I was studying. Perhaps under a teacher who is more interested in the quality of what I was learning than how much I am paying I'd feel differently, and if I find a teacher like that, I'd gladly take up Kuk Sool again.


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## kwanjang

Wow Bruce.  Now I'll have to tell folks I have a bad sunburn I'm so redfaced.

Anyway, I have a good reason to teach the way I do.  In many places I go to do a seminar, I see folks who need more "foundation stuff" so they can better do the things they have already learned.  Many seminar presenters show the fancy stuff that makes them look good; however, they fail to teach the foundation upon which the good looking stuff is built so that the participant can look good.  Furthermore, they don't even mention that this basic stuff is needed to make it work, and that is how you get the errors that I saw Master Pellegrini make a while back in Los Angeles.

Mnid you, I have seen JP do some very nice demos (better than my own), but I have also seen a lack of understanding of some of the materials he acquired from GM Seo (who, because of his language, does not explain this much detail).  When you now TEACH this stuff as if it were your own, you expand on this problem and it goes on and on.

What does this have to do with this subject is simple.  I don't want to spread technique that has no solid foundation, as in our arts many techniques will come around again and again in various different forms and applications.  Hence, knowing the basic formula is essential to not just one technique, it is paramount to learning Hap Ki Do (or reducing it to so much worthless fluff).

In a seminar environment where I am happy, I'll teach this way.  If I have landed in a place where I feel uncomfortable, I give them more technique than they can handle.  They think they hit the jackpot, I know they haven't learned a thing.  Because I do check out who asks me to give a seminar, this has only happened once or twice.  

In other locations, like Jackson, I am "given" a task to do, and I do it.  For example, JR might ask me to teach Poh Bahk Sool, and I feel OK doing that because the folks coming to Jackson by and large already are Hap Ki Doin with pretty sound basics.  Still, I try to throw in how the particular technique is "linked" to an empty hand technique they already know.  Again, I do this to show that understanding the relationship between the various techniques will help you learn them much quicker.

When I was asked to do pyung soo techniques one year, I brought a bunch of concrete to have folks try the technique; however, the hotel did not allow breaking in their ballroom, so we ended up doing a 2 hour KI breaking seminar in the parking lot.  This was so popular that I had just about every attendee in the parking lot.  I ended up doing this several years in a row, and now many folks who attendd have a different understanding of palm strikes.  As a teacher, I am delighted in that, and it made my palm strike seminar worth while for the participant.  Instead of just striking with an open hand, they now strike with KI.  Could not have been done without the parking lot session IMHO, and that would have made the actual seminar worthless.

I guess it boils down to one thing... teaching according to a plan.  Not just "showing" a bunch of techniques without "teaching" anything.


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## kwanjang

Jwreck:
I see from your location you might have trained at the WKSA HQ or perhaps Master Harmon's place (good Instructor). If training at HQ, you most likely had a "wandering" black belt Instructor from another school to teach you.  IMHO, the HQ lacked focus on what was being taught, because Instuctors changed as often as a baby needs diapers changed.

I hear you loud and clear about fees, as they were no doubt a bit on the pricy side when compounded with the testing fees, black belt doboks, general's doboks, and much more stuff that you were expected to purchase.  This was just was too much for many, and in Canada we had the exchange rate on top of that; hence it became impossible to "sell" the art to prospective students.  Too bad, because the art is great IMHO.

While the prices etc. were a sore spot with the students, I personally became disillusioned with the fact that students without sufficient skill were awarded black belts; hence, quality went down the tubes.  Despite their quality problems, these black belts were almost at once expected to go out and start their own schools.  Now you have inexperienced black belts who lack skill spreading their lack of knowledge.  IMHO, that WILL come back to haunt the WKSA sooner than later.  Unfortunate indeed.


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## jwreck

Yes, I'm at the Harmon's school. I like working with them (either Barry or Choon Ok), but I hardly ever see them, at least don't learn from them. There are numerous black belts there who can't perform basic techniques. What's really fun is when you see them then trying to teach techniques that they don't understand to lower level students! The whole attitude of the school has taken on a very McDojang feel since Ii started there a few years ago. They give belts to those who have paid there money, regardless of ability. If you can kinda fake the motions of techniques, they are considered "learned". Then the money thing on top of that was enough to make me quit a few months ago. Luckily, I was ordered to take a break by my employer, and they let me out of my contract. Then informed me how much more it'd cost if I decided to come back ($30 per month additional). I think its sad that people who obviosly have the abilities that the Harmons do, are allowing their school to water down their art. I think maybe they've just reached a point where their focus is elswhere, other than the Dojang? I don't know. ANyway, I don't mean to rag on anybody. Their school is very popular and I'm sure they're making good money and helping to spread Kuk Sool, its just not the way I'd choose to do it, and its not the environment I want to learn in.


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## jwreck

Just wanted to add, I do think Kuk Sool is certainly an excellent MA, and maybe someday I'll come back to it.


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## kwanjang

Hello JWreck:
I have known Barry KJN for a long time, and he and his wife are both good people; however, the money thing seems to have gotten to the entire TX group.  No wonder, because Sa Mo Nim seems to push that sort of thing.

There are other arts out there that teach good stuff, and I do hope you will continue training somewhere. I don't know your rank, and I'm not sure if this will help; but, there is a KSN by the name of Kat Kelly who teaches in Braeswood.  Can't hurt to visit that school, and see if it is to your liking.


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## jwreck

I appreciate the encouragement. I'm a Dahn Bo Nim. When they hit me with how much it was goin to cost to get my black belt, it was the final straw for me.  Braeswood is a little further than I want to drive, but I may check it out. Of course, I'm pretty sure everyone in this area has to go to HQ for black belt testing. I'm looking into Aikido currently,, but I haven't decided anything for certain.  I know I'm haveing serious withdrawel from not doing MA for 3 months! Anyway, thanks again.


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## kwanjang

I hear you about the drive.  As far as being "tested" in front of Kuk Sa Nim, you are probably right again.  I used to have to bring him all the way to Canada to have him "test" my students.  Problem was, it is hard to see what is going on on the floor while in my office counting money. 

I have tested many WKSA students all over the place, and it never made a difference if I signed test forms as passed or if I failed the person.  What a charade.  Anyway, best wishes in finding a school and do continue.  You are Sooooo close.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Jwreck: 

Not too put too fine a point on this, but may I make an observation, and I will use myself in this comment (please God it comes out right)? 

I am NOT a member of the NKMAA as I have said before. I continue to make this clear so that people understand the value that I place on good teaching OVER organizational affiliation. In my own case I would (and have) attended Rudys' events (JR Wests' as well) for no reason other than that I know there will be sound, well-thought-out and satisfying training. In my experience, a persons' membership in an organization or affliation to a known accomplished teacher does NOT automatically make THEM an accomplished teacher. Often, when someone asks my opinion of an art I withold much of what I would say because so much of an art is dependent on the quality of instruction. For instance, I, in good conscience, cannot recommend Kat Kelly as an instructor as I have never had the experience of her teaching model. Rudy CAN make such a recommendation because he is intimately familiar with her teaching skills. Make sense so far?  If it does, I said all of THAT to say this. 

IMVVHO I think it is a mistake to draw automatic parallels between good instruction and organizations. For instance, I have only witnessed Master Harmons' abilities in his magazine articles and my efforts to connect with him regarding my research. It would be unfair to extrapolate from such articles to presume to make comments about his teaching skills. But what is more to the point I think it is unwise to characterize an entire organization based on a small number of experiences in a select area. Organizations only serve to increase the probability that one will find like minded folks with whom to communicate, but it does NOT guarentee this. In this way I do NOT speak to the NKMAA as a constellation of stellar teachers. It may turn out as such but I have no experience along these lines to date. I DO know that Rudy is an accomplished teacher and I would trust his observations in identifying likewise accomplised teachers. 

In summary, then, were I to offer advise, it would be to the effect that you move away from the idea of organizational affiliation and focus more strongly on locating an accomplished teacher. These are difficult to find and may often require considerable travel and personal inconvenience. The benefits, however, universally off-set the costs.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## dosandojang

Kwang Jang Nim Timmerman, it is not only KSW that is all about the money...This is RAMPANT in TKD as well! I just wish that a classier KMA like KSW, would not stoop to the level of the WTF!


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## kwanjang

Greetings Bruce:
I totally agree with you on finding an Instructor instead of an org; however, it is hard to find a good Instructor to stick with, if this Instructor is tied to the orgs way of doing things.  For example, I HAD to charge the big testing fees.  Even if folks liked my instruction, they were often not able to stay with me if they wanted to be a black belt.

Dosan:
I am not familiar with other systems, so I can't comment.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Rudy: 

Absolutely. Sad but true. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## dosandojang

Kwang Jang Nim Timmerman, but I am. I am a member of the Kukkiwon and WTF...And there has been a lot of corruption. Have you read about the WTF scandal on the DD recently? Believe me Sir, this bad stuff is not only happening in KSW....


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## kwanjang

Yes, I had seen the DD, and I am sad to hear of so much trouble in any art.  I can still remember how taken I was with the lofty ideals such as the Tenets of TKD and the so called "virtues" of other Korean arts.  Seems it is easier to write about these values than to live by them.


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## dosandojang

Amen Kwang Jan Nim, amen...


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## jwreck

Bruce, I was never interested in the organization to begin with. I was impressed with the art itself. Add to that the fact that the school is run by the Harmons, world renouned instructors, and it seemed like a sure bet. No big deal, live and learn. I'll study elsewhere. Surely there's someone around here doing what I would like to do. Thanks for the support all!


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## kwanjang

From what I see, your area is great for martial arts.  If the Braeswood school is too far, perhaps one of the USKMAF schools will be closer.  Check out their website for locations.


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## NightShadow

Hi everyone....

I am new here to this board but I found the subject matter interesting and thought I would post what information I have on this subject.  First a little background.  I have been taking HapKiDo since 1993.  It was a style that to me just fit naturally with what I was looking for.  Prior to that I had been in Shorinji Kempo (my first martial art style) followed by Wun Hop Kuen Do (my instructor in Shorinji Kempo moved away which is why I went to this style, it was great but had it's issues with the Sifu there who was almost never at classes because of his work schedule). 

When I first joined in the HapKiDo school school I know we were part of one of the international associations.  But towards the mid to late 90's the Grand Master decided to no break off ties with all associations because of various political reasons.  At that point in time he changed the name and started his own association for it.  It is know known as the World Moo Lim Do Association and the style is Moo Lim Do - Hap Ki Do.

The style is a very traditional HapKiDo style.  We have no real stances, just an offense and defense stance and of course a horse stance.  We do not have any forms or katas in the style.  Most of what is taught is kicking techniques and the self defense or point techniques (locks, throws, grabs, strikes, pressure point attacks etc.)  Weapons are not exactly taught unless you are black belt level on up and even then it is very basic skills that mostly are used in demonstrations.  Reason being, the grandmasters philosophy is that if one cannot master them selves first there is no need to learn to use an extenstion of it.

Anyway...  On to the interesting information.  Granted there is some holes in it as well.  This is because my grand master does not talk much about it and from those that have gained the information went to great lengths to get it.

My grand master is Kap Chul Lim.  He came from Korea with his wife and son to the US in the mid to late 70's.  After arriving here they lived with a host family in a small farming community.  Master Lim began attending a University and also started teaching Hap Ki Do.  His background in the style is interesting.  He started his training as a young boy in Korea.  I don't remember off hand who his instructor is, but I think I have that in some notes I somewhere.  Later in life he did become a member of the Royal Guard in Korea and eventual was a member of the South Korean Special Forces (I believe during Vietnam).  As a member of the Royal Guard and Special Forces teams we worked with various other martial artists several of which he had trained with growing up and later most of which moved to the US.

One of the individuals that Master Lim trained with growing up was Suh, In Hyuk.  Both of which were trained under the same grand master in Korea and both were trained in Hap Ki Do.  According to Master Lim's retelling Suh, In Huyk stole the "notebook" or scrolls from their school that contained the information on history of the style, techniques, etc and came to the US.  As we all know Suh, In Huyk then coined the style Kuk Sool Won and started claiming it as the one true korean style dating back thousands of years.  After this had happened Master Lim eventually came to the US as well.

Now, judging off the skills and technique of Master Lim and his son (Il Lim), I would have no doubt in believing that Suh, In Huyk is also of similar caliber when it comes to form and technique, especially since they all trained under the same grand master in Korea.  I do think Suh, In Huyk has fabricated a lot of his story on Kuk Sool Won in an effort to market it more effectively.  I for one would like to gain a better insight to the history of the styles as well since there are holes in the retelling of it.  And even I am continueing to learn more as time goes by.

If nothing else I hope this helps to validate where Suh, In Huyk came from and the style he studied in before coming to the USA.  For those that are interested, Master Lim has a school located Hollywood, CA and Layton, UT.  His son is currently running the dojang in CA.  If you are a HKD enthusiast you should stop by and check it out to see how it compares to other HKD schools.

- I will post more information as I get it as well....

Thanks!


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## kwanjang

NightShadow said:
			
		

> ...  My grand master is Kap Chul Lim.  He came from Korea with his wife and son to the US in the mid to late 70's.  After arriving here they lived with a host family in a small farming community.  Master Lim began attending a University and also started teaching Hap Ki Do.  His background in the style is interesting.  He started his training as a young boy in Korea.  I don't remember off hand who his instructor is, but I think I have that in some notes I somewhere.  Later in life he did become a member of the Royal Guard in Korea and eventual was a member of the South Korean Special Forces (I believe during Vietnam).  As a member of the Royal Guard and Special Forces teams we worked with various other martial artists several of which he had trained with growing up and later most of which moved to the US.
> 
> One of the individuals that Master Lim trained with growing up was Suh, In Hyuk.  Both of which were trained under the same grand master in Korea and both were trained in Hap Ki Do.  According to Master Lim's retelling Suh, In Huyk stole the "notebook" or scrolls from their school that contained the information on history of the style, techniques, etc and came to the US.  As we all know Suh, In Huyk then coined the style Kuk Sool Won and started claiming it as the one true korean style dating back thousands of years.  After this had happened Master Lim eventually came to the US as well.
> 
> Now, judging off the skills and technique of Master Lim and his son (Il Lim), I would have no doubt in believing that Suh, In Huyk is also of similar caliber when it comes to form and technique, especially since they all trained under the same grand master in Korea.  I do think Suh, In Huyk has fabricated a lot of his story on Kuk Sool Won in an effort to market it more effectively.  I for one would like to gain a better insight to the history of the styles as well since there are holes in the retelling of it.  And even I am continueing to learn more as time goes by.
> 
> If nothing else I hope this helps to validate where Suh, In Huyk came from and the style he studied in before coming to the USA.  For those that are interested, Master Lim has a school located Hollywood, CA and Layton, UT.  His son is currently running the dojang in CA.  If you are a HKD enthusiast you should stop by and check it out to see how it compares to other HKD schools.
> 
> - I will post more information as I get it as well....
> 
> Thanks!


Greetings:  Most of you know I have no special love for GM Suh; however, I do see a few qestions about this post.  First is the timeline of your GM.  Although you do not state his age, from the statement that he served in Vietnam I make some assumptions.  I think it is highly unlikely that he served with the Royal Court.  Just look at when that was disbanded to get an idea of how old your GM would have to be.

Second, you say that Suh stole the scrolls/book.  This does not make a whole lot of sense to me, as there were VERY few recorded martial art documents around.  To leave one that important lying around to be stolen does seem hard to believe.  I guard my Master's records VERY carefully, and I would find it difficult to believe other Masters would be less careful.

I am not giving you a hard time, I am merely stating that we need to be careful before making such statements without more proof than what one GM claims over another.  FWIW, GM Suh's eldest son, Sung Jin Suh, has a school in San Fransisco.  A great guy, and excellent martial artist.  Given the chance, I would not pass up dropping by his school to check him v/s YOUR GM's son.  To call that visit interesting would not suffice.


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## NightShadow

I do not know my GM's age exactly, but I know he is around 65+.  I believe this is similar in age to GM Suh as well.  

Like I mentioned I know there are holes in some of the information I have, but the one thing I do know is the link between GM Suh and GM Lim.

Why would it not be feasible for Suh to have stolen the notebook from the grandmaster he studied from in Korea?  GM Suh as well as GM Lim were top students under their grandmaster and I am sure they both (as well as other top students) had access to such an item as part of their training.  To me it does seem feasible that something like that could very well happen.  This can lead to What If scenarios of course as well.  Such as What If GM Suh left Korea because he had taken such a valuable artifact and was in essence running from others seeking to return it to it's rightful place?  According to GM Suh's history he came to the USA maybe 2-3 years before GM Lim did.  By that time GM Suh had already been pushing Kuk Sool Won here in the states and established his history of that style... right or wrong.

Judging from the GM Lim and his son I have no doubt in my mind that GM Suh and his son Sung Jin Suh are of similar caliber and amazing to watch and work with, just as my GM and his son are the most talented martial artists I have seen.  Unfortunately in Utah we don't have any Kuk Sool Won schools around that I could visit to compare other aspects with.  I will be sure to stop by the school in San Fran though the next time I take a trip out that way.

Thanks.....


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## kwanjang

NightShadow said:
			
		

> I do not know my GM's age exactly, but I know he is around 65+.  I believe this is similar in age to GM Suh as well.



I guess we know from the age thing that he would NOT have been a royal court guard or whatever.  Just too young for that.



			
				NightShadow said:
			
		

> Like I mentioned I know there are holes in some of the information I have, but the one thing I do know is the link between GM Suh and GM Lim.


I think you'll find that most of the martial artists involved in Hap Ki Do type training around that time worked together.



			
				NightShadow said:
			
		

> Why would it not be feasible for Suh to have stolen the notebook from the grandmaster he studied from in Korea?  GM Suh as well as GM Lim were top students under their grandmaster and I am sure they both (as well as other top students) had access to such an item as part of their training.  To me it does seem feasible that something like that could very well happen.


I don't think it is a good idea to call someone a thief without more proof, that is all.  In fact, I would say you might be liable for slander.



			
				NightShadow said:
			
		

> This can lead to What If scenarios of course as well.  Such as What If GM Suh left Korea because he had taken such a valuable artifact and was in essence running from others seeking to return it to it's rightful place?


As an immigrant myself, I can tell you that it takes years to be able to immigrate to the US or Canada... not a fast get away if you ask me.  GM Suh was in fact invited by one of his students to come to the US.  I was there when he held his first seminar on this continent in the early 70's.



			
				NightShadow said:
			
		

> According to GM Suh's history he came to the USA maybe 2-3 years before GM Lim did.  By that time GM Suh had already been pushing Kuk Sool Won here in the states and established his history of that style... right or wrong.


My first Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do certificate dates back to the sixties.  The art was already well established in Korea by that time, and a number of Masters were sent out in the world to promote it. My late GM was one of those. 



			
				NightShadow said:
			
		

> Judging from the GM Lim and his son I have no doubt in my mind that GM Suh and his son Sung Jin Suh are of similar caliber and amazing to watch and work with, just as my GM and his son are the most talented martial artists I have seen.  Unfortunately in Utah we don't have any Kuk Sool Won schools around that I could visit to compare other aspects with.  I will be sure to stop by the school in San Fran though the next time I take a trip out that way.


You'll have a great time watching this young man do some awesome techniques.  BTW, I would not mention that you as much as called his father a thief.

Thanks.....[/QUOTE]


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## glad2bhere

Dear Rudy: 

"......Second, you say that Suh stole the scrolls/book. This does not make a whole lot of sense to me, as there were VERY few recorded martial art documents around. To leave one that important lying around to be stolen does seem hard to believe. I guard my Master's records VERY carefully, and I would find it difficult to believe other Masters would be less careful....." 

Of course I can't know for sure, but this sounds like one of the standard devices one finds in Hapkido oral traditions. Another is "retreated to the mountains" or "trained in the mountains". Another is "was trained by an obscure monk" or "was trained by an itinerant peddler". Of course the idea of stealing the "sacred scroll" or "peering through a fence and ease-dropping on training" are a couple of more. In the Chinese (and Korean) tradition such devices are often used to validate an oral tradition and within the culture are usually accepted. Now, unfortunately, among our Western traditions we expect documentation including historically accurate information including names, dates, place names and so forth. Absent that, most Westerners have a problem with the "flexible" if quaint oral traditions not the least of which are the nasty little inconsistencies that pop-up on closer examination such as have been mentioned here. IMVVHO I think that if we were to look at the Hapkido story more objectively the tale might sound more like this. A group of young turks and MA advocates got together back and forth over time and decided to try to repeat the success of the TSD/TKD people in early post-war Korea. They had a falling out over who the leader would be so they went their separate ways and generated their respective stories to validate their individual efforts. ---- OK, so its not as romantic but I think its probably closer to the truth. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## NightShadow

I was reading up on the history or background of GM Suh and Kuk Sool Won.  It has been some time since I last read it.  In what I read it stated that GM Suh, grand father had studied and taught Koong Joong Mu Sool (Royal Court Martial Arts).  But there was no mention as to when the Royal Court Guard was disbanded.  Does anyone have a link to that information?

I do believe that GM Suh's grandfather could have possibly been the GM of GM Lim.  I think this is a definate possibility since GM Suh's grandfather was an instructor in the Royal Courts Martial Arts.  This could also help explain why a lot of the core techniques are identical between the Hap Ki Do I take and Kuk Sool Won.  

According to the history of KSW, GM Suh after his grandfathers passing traveled and studied at various other places.  During this time is where I think GM Suh added things to his style that separated it from the core system his grandfather taught (such as the addition of traditional forms which the style I am in lacks).

I need to dig up what history I have on the style I am an and look at it closer still.  GM Lim only gives out information on the basis that he decides it is something you need to know so it can be difficult to get everything pieced together with him.  

I don't mean to make GM Suh out to be a thief either... especially as we all know that various styles or martial arts have similar stories in them as glad2bhere has said.  Without actually having been there it does make it hard to validate these kinds of things.  

Thanks!

NightShadow


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## kwanjang

Hello Nightshadow.
I was sure that you did not mean to actually say GM Suh was a thief based on the information you provided...it just came across that way.  With one person expressing this might have been a possibility, another will run with the information and tell it as truth.  Thanks for clearing up the actual intent of your post.  

Bruce:
I agree.  There is sooo much oral history out there that one might become sceptical; however, that venue used to be a major way of preserving some of the things that took place.  Problem is, it changes over time.

BTW, I heard from Doug Custer, and he said he mailed the weapons you left at my dojang after the seminar.  I hope you will get them soon.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Nightshadow: 

".....I was reading up on the history or background of GM Suh and Kuk Sool Won. It has been some time since I last read it. In what I read it stated that GM Suh, grand father had studied and taught Koong Joong Mu Sool (Royal Court Martial Arts). But there was no mention as to when the Royal Court Guard was disbanded. Does anyone have a link to that information?...." 

Please accept what I am about to say in the most supportive way, but I am concerned that you are playing a bit loose with Korean history. I wish things were a little more cut&dried but Korea at the turn of the 19th century was a pretty chaotic place with no less than 7 major factions vying for influence.  The reason I raise this point is that depending on whose eyes you are viewing through you can get a few different answers to your questions. Allow me to give you three examples. 

 In May, 1881 Korea&#8217;s King Kojong hired a Japanese lieutenant named Horimoto Reizo to train the "Pyolgigun", or Special Skills Force, to march and shoot in the European fashion. The Korean royal bodyguard was not amused by this threat to its existence, and in 1882 it had Horimoto killed and his Special Skills Force disbanded.  One might easily take this as the point at which the Korean military lost their sway over the palace since the security of the King from this point forward was held by a succession of entities including Chinese advisors, Japanese advisors and even the Korean "Guild of Peddlers". 

In 1907, the Japanese usurped control of urban security for the precincts of Seoul when the Kabo Reforms (1894) did not produce the expected impetus for change including a well-ordered National police force and standing army. Individuals who had been responsible for security in and around the palace specifically and Seoul in general were dismissed. Three years later, in 1910, the Korean king abdicated in favor of his son and the Korean prime minister ceded administrative control of the country to a Japanese secretary-general. Some might consider this date the point you are speaking of. IMVVHO I consider the 1907 date the most accurate in that the dismissal I mentioned was the earliest documented policy enacted as opposed to a action resulting from some other event.  FWIW. 

BTW: Re: Mr. Custer.  Was kind enough to send me an e-mail advising me that he had sent things along and expressing an interest in pursuing some sword work. As always I am at his disposal for the asking. Thanks. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## NightShadow

Bruce....

Thanks for your info.  I spent quite a bit of time reading over some Korean history last week and history on various martial styles from Korea.  You are rigth that the Korean Royal Court system was disbanded in the 1907 - 1910 time frame because of the occupation from Japan.  Myong Duk Suh is the only person I have found reference to that continued to teach the Royal Court martial arts though past that time.  Depending on the reference some state he only taught it to family members where as other accounts kind of leave it open by saying he originally only taught it to family members.  One reference on In Hyuk Suh stated he was born in 1939 (which puts him right around the same age as my GM Lim).  It has also been stated that GM Suh started his training at the age of 5.  This would have been 1944.  When GM Suh's grandfather passed in 1952 he would have only been training for 8 years and be 13 years of age.  

    The way I figure things is that my style of Hapi Ki Do came from the Royal Guard martial arts.  However right now the only person I can place my GM as gaining training from would have been GM Suh's grandfather.  But I have no way of validating that at this point (and I am not about ready to walk up to my GM or GM Suh and ask!).  One of the items I dug up from my papers on my style of Hap Ki Do makes extensive remarks of the roots of it going back to Kuk Sool Won and the Royal Court martial arts.  But it also makes reference to it as Kuk Sool - Hap Ki Do as well.  From what I could find though Kuk Sool - Hap Ki Do broke off from Kuk Sool Won because of differences some individuals had between what GM Suh wanted to have instructors teach and what others thought should be taught in the style.  But from what I read Kuk Sool - Hap Ki Do is not being taught anywhere outside of Korea.

    Another item that links my style back to the Kuk Sool styles is the original symbol used for it before GM Lim broke away from all Korean associations.  It is a derivitive of the Kuk Sool symbol (hand grasping a staff with 2 swords at the side of the hand in a arch type pattern to create almost a circle around the fist, this all encompassed by a pentagon shaped symbol).

    So this leads me to the question of where did th symbol come from that is used in Kuk Sool Won and Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do?  

Thanks....

NightShadow


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## kwanjang

FWIW
Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do is still taught in my school in Canada.  According to my late GM, the crest of Kuk Sool has significant meaning.  The outside (what you call pentagon) is actually a stylized Rose of Sharon (Korea's national flower), the fist grabbing the dan bong represents the Sado and Bul Kyo Mu Sool and the swords represent the Koong Joong Mu Sool.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Nightshadow: 

".....One of the items I dug up from my papers on my style of Hap Ki Do makes extensive remarks of the roots of it going back to Kuk Sool Won and the Royal Court martial arts. But it also makes reference to it as Kuk Sool - Hap Ki Do as well. From what I could find though Kuk Sool - Hap Ki Do broke off from Kuk Sool Won because of differences some individuals had between what GM Suh wanted to have instructors teach and what others thought should be taught in the style. But from what I read Kuk Sool - Hap Ki Do is not being taught anywhere outside of Korea....." 

Yes its a little hard to follow sometimes. For instance, what we cal "Hwa Rang Do" today was first taught as "Hwa Rang Hapkido" before Joo Bang Lee changed the name and gave it a separate history. There is still a peer of Lees' in the SF area who continues to call his material "Hwa Rang Hapkido" and was likewise a student of Kim Moo Woong, but gives a different reason for using "Hwa Rang" in his title. I would guess he probably has some concerns about running afoul of Lee over trademark infringement. Likewise, Kuk Sool Won was formerly known as Kuk Sool Hapkido, and there are still some folks around who continue to use "kuk sool" in their titles such as "kuk sool do". 

As far as influences that could be anyboys' guess, and I doubt that the current leadership in the Hapkido arts will be anymore candid than they already have been. By this time in their lives there would be little benefit to coming out and publically stating that all they were trying to do was organize something like the TKD and TSD people had done. I must say that it is always easy to make up stories when there are no documents to validate what is being said. When soneone comes up with an offical training manual for palace guards dated between 1800 and 1850 then I will listen to a case for some obscure "Royal Court" art. (I'm still waiting for someone to turn-up census records for the existence of the 56 previous GM in the lineage of Hwa Rang GM that GM Lee has talked about in his interviews.) Given the Yangbans' aversion to work over study and reflection, and the Confucian view of eschewing violent action I don't think any such manual will ever turn up, but I could get fooled. There may be something like a latter day MYTBTJ lurking around somewhere undiscovered. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## NightShadow

Rudy:
Thanks for the symbolistic description of the Kuk Sool logo.  I know I have somewhere a description of it other then the Rose of Sharon part.  It has been awhile since I looked at the meaning of it so this was a good refresher for me.  However I am still curious as to where it came from.  Was GM Suh the first to use it with Kuk Sool Won or does the logo have other roots as well.  Maybe even having parts of it come from the various systems it represents as being unified?  Was it something he may have seen from his grandfather?  I think this would be interesting to know.  I can understand other kuk sool styles using that symbol if they were break offs from GM Suh's kuk sool won, but are there other styles that have used that logo or similar that have no ties to GM Suh's KSW.

   I think some of the confusion surrounding the korean arts of kuk sool, Hap Ki Do and Hwa Rang, etc are part of the appeal to it.  It does kind of draw one into learning the history of things in order to try and sort things out for them self or to better understand where various aspects of their art came from.

    I would be curious to know or see the books the GM Suh had received from his grandfather regarding the royal court martial art system, techniques or what not that might be in them.  It would be interesting to find out how far back they go age wise.  Of course getting the opportunity to study books like that I am sure would be a difficult task to accomplish.

- NightShadow


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## kwanjang

Shadow:
I did see the books GM Suh talks about; however, I was unable to read them (lack of Korean language skills) so they could have been cook books as far as that goes

I am not sure about other schools using this crest.  I began training in KSHKD in the sixties, and it was the logo that we used then.  FWIW, some people (like my old GM Pak) changed the name of their art to keep it from being a TM issue with Kuk Sool.


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## NightShadow

That is pretty neat that you had a chance to see them.  I can certainly understand the lack of Korean langauge skills.  I still think it would be interesting to be able to review them or have them reviewed to understand their history and text.

Since you have been involved in these styles since the 60's I really have appreciated your input and insight to it.  It has helped me with some of my studies on this subject.

- NightShadow


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## kwanjang

NightShadow said:
			
		

> That is pretty neat that you had a chance to see them.  I can certainly understand the lack of Korean langauge skills.  I still think it would be interesting to be able to review them or have them reviewed to understand their history and text.
> 
> Since you have been involved in these styles since the 60's I really have appreciated your input and insight to it.  It has helped me with some of my studies on this subject.
> 
> - NightShadow



You are most welcome.  I think this is a great place for ALL of us to learn, and I take full advantage of it


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## hapkidonet

I was walking past a Kuk Sool school in Alameda California once. It was an open garage style school, and class was in session, so I stopped to watch. The instructor ambled over and asked me if I was interested. I told him that I study Hapkido and was just observing. To my amazement (knowing something about various Korean arts and how they regard each other) he said, "Ah. Well, this is Hapkido too."


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