# My own MA...



## fenglong

Hello everyone.
I am developing my own MA and am looking for creative or atleast interested people for creative/productive chat/exchange.

I practice MA daily, mainly to grow physically and mentally, but also invest a lot of thinking and testing in realistic combat situations/self defense.
Yet, my MA is the center of my life and my life style, NOT a simple self defense style and NOT an esoteric fuss style.

-The physical methods are based on elements, their biochemic effects to the human body and aim for health, performance increase and maximized efficiency.

-The mental methods are based on elements and their psychic effects to the human brain and aim for a clear and focused mind, reduced negative influence of emotions and pain and increased motivation by affecting the personal mood.

-The spiritual/philosophical methods are meant for social practice, considering they require a certain life style and a vast amount of dedication I consider this part of my MA to be just for myself. Since my earliest childhood I am obsessed with certain nature forces, they have drawn a red line through my entire life and even I needed several years to finally decide whether to live for this philosophy.


I am not trying to make a "better MA", I am not trying to compete with other MA and I am not putting myself above other practitioners.
I simply figured I need to combine my love for nature forces, obsessive creativity and desire to learn and find innovative answers(just different, not neccesarily better), idiosyncratic opinion and expectations about MA and my delicate personality, if I want to be satisfied in life.
I spent about 10 years practicing Hong Quan and Taekwondo and about another 5 years with research and trying other MA such as Thaiboxing, Taijiquan and a year in China.


My MA is my personal purpose in life and by no means a competition challenge to others, so no disrespectful comments please.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Good Luck with that... I think you are going to need alot more exposure and time training to put anything worthwhile together, and I still doubt it would creative and new.
I might suggest to you to instead of trying to start your own martial art, to continue training and learning other martial arts and start developing your own style of expressing those martial arts, and possibly work on a life philosphy to combine the martial arts with your creative nature, I can almost guarantee you will get a much better response to that then coming around and saying you have trained for 10 years and are now going to make your own martial art.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Welcome to MT and I hope you enjoy yourself.  There are many who practice a non-traditional martial art style on MT, some are partially or completely self-designed.  So you're not the Lone Ranger.  No one can say that your personal style is or is not effective and useful; if it works for you, that's great.

I hope you have a fairly thick skin, however.  Founders appear on MT from time to time, and their own attitude and answers to questions either ensures they have a pleasant experience or are laughed at until they slink off or blow up and get banned.  I hope you understand that lots of people invent their own styles, and most feel the need to proclaim it (never quite figured that part out - if it's a personal style, keep it personal).  Some are pretty much based on something they saw on Power Rangers TV shows combined with the couple years of TKD they took when they were 9 years old.  Some are a bit more legit.  It becomes clear fairly soon which is which; but be prepared for some prodding by people interested in figuring it out.


----------



## Aiki Lee

When I think of what "my own martial art" means to me, I think personally of how I would master something completely and then provide my take on it. If you get several masters of the same style together they would do a lot of things the same but each have their own focus, strengths, and weakness that would make their art unique to them. Is this what you are talking about?

In any case, if you are interested in elemental attitudes look at some of Stephen Haye's books about the elements and the emotions that go with them.

And welcome to Martial Talk.


----------



## fenglong

I lived 15 years with the question whether to adapt to the ideas and concepts of others or doing it myself from the scratch, also to understand the MA to bits and not just pray and hope what I am getting taught makes sense.
A person teaching a MA being called master is no guarantee for the quality of what they teach, nor for the students to be satisfied with the results.
I think spending 15 years on adapting to other's ideas was enough for me, especially since I am developing my MA for myself, not for others.

I am constantly looking for input to advance my concepts, but not to make me wonder whether to continue with my path or not, cause I will continue.


----------



## Aiki Lee

So, I guess I don't understand what it is you plan on doing.

I would think it is incredibly difficult to come up with an entirely new training philosophy. It's not impossible, but I think its unlikely. I'm not trying to discourage you or anything, so don't think I'm trying to pick you apart for something.

Do you have ideas in your head about what you are looking to do? How is your approach different than what you have experienced?


----------



## fenglong

Himura Kenshin said:


> When I think of what "my own martial art" means to me, I think personally of how I would master something completely and then provide my take on it. If you get several masters of the same style together they would do a lot of things the same but each have their own focus, strengths, and weakness that would make their art unique to them. Is this what you are talking about?
> 
> In any case, if you are interested in elemental attitudes look at some of Stephen Haye's books about the elements and the emotions that go with them.
> 
> And welcome to Martial Talk.



Thanks for the book tip, I will consider it.

And no, by developing my own MA is literally mean from the scratch.

I have not only made experience with useful things within those 15 years but also with a lot of things that bother me and that I'd prefer to do differently.
I won't judge MA styles by the things I disagree with, because of their in my opinion each MA has a certain spirit which can only be grasped by studying it for centuries.

I may, in the end, come to the same or similar conclusions in terms of certain aspects I formerly disagreed with, but atleast I walked the path of experience to understand the details and not just adapt and accept to whatever I get told by my "master".


----------



## fenglong

Himura Kenshin said:


> So, I guess I don't understand what it is you plan on doing.
> 
> I would think it is incredibly difficult to come up with an entirely new training philosophy. It's not impossible, but I think its unlikely. I'm not trying to discourage you or anything, so don't think I'm trying to pick you apart for something.
> 
> Do you have ideas in your head about what you are looking to do? How is your approach different than what you have experienced?




The ideas of it have grown over years and even the step to fully train by those ideas took many months. But as success came, doubts slowly moved away.


----------



## fenglong

Bill Mattocks said:


> Welcome to MT and I hope you enjoy yourself.  There are many who practice a non-traditional martial art style on MT, some are partially or completely self-designed.  So you're not the Lone Ranger.  No one can say that your personal style is or is not effective and useful; if it works for you, that's great.
> 
> I hope you have a fairly thick skin, however.  Founders appear on MT from time to time, and their own attitude and answers to questions either ensures they have a pleasant experience or are laughed at until they slink off or blow up and get banned.  I hope you understand that lots of people invent their own styles, and most feel the need to proclaim it (never quite figured that part out - if it's a personal style, keep it personal).  Some are pretty much based on something they saw on Power Rangers TV shows combined with the couple years of TKD they took when they were 9 years old.  Some are a bit more legit.  It becomes clear fairly soon which is which; but be prepared for some prodding by people interested in figuring it out.



Thanks.

I didn't realize there are that many creative MA practitioners, although I have come across some weird stuff on youtube... ^^

I am not the biggest human friend anyway, watching news can be enough to decide to spend your time with other things than humans, but I am used to facing malicious behavior and also sometimes blow up.
I guess hot temper is part of my personality, but I rather focus it into a "needle tip". ^^

I am happy to answer any application related questions, it would help me realized things much better too, unfortunately people usually don't get to the point at all.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

fenglong said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I didn't realize there are that many creative MA practitioners, although I have come across some weird stuff on youtube... ^^
> 
> I am not the biggest human friend anyway, watching news can be enough to decide to spend your time with other things than humans, but I am used to facing malicious behavior and also sometimes blow up.
> I guess hot temper is part of my personality, but I rather focus it into a "needle tip". ^^
> 
> I am happy to answer any application related questions, it would help me realized things much better too, unfortunately people usually don't get to the point at all.



That went well.  Well, good luck anyway with that chip on your shoulder.


----------



## fenglong

...speaking of others and their MA styles, I'd love to read/see more about those and their ideas and motivations.


----------



## fenglong

Bill Mattocks said:


> That went well.  Well, good luck anyway with that chip on your shoulder.



...you mean ship?


----------



## Xue Sheng

Your profile says 15 years, different styles

How many styles and how long in each and which one do you consider your root style?

In China for a year, doing what, training what, do you speak Mandarin or another dialect?


----------



## fenglong

@Student



> Your profile says 15 years, different styles
> 
> How many styles and how long in each and which one do you consider your root style?


I spent about 10 years with Hong Quan (Hung Ga) and Taekwondo, besides a little Thaiboxing, Taijiquan and weapon forms.

I think I kept most from Taekwondo, yet I spent a lot of time and energy getting rid of things that had become a second nature to me.
Keeping experience and knowledge is one thing, but snapping back into old patterns is not what I want.



> In China for a year, doing what, training what, do you speak Mandarin or another dialect?


I did a total of 4 trips to and through China, doing all sorts of things. Looking for a master/a MA I want to learn, doing some jobs, collecting experience with the actual life in China.
I speak a little Mandarin, I think all the traveling didn't do well to my Chinese skill. ^^
Last time I spent 3 months in Chongqing where the local dialect kept confusing me as it was often same or similar words but different tones compared to Mandarin.

As for hanzi, I think I could read a few things on a menu in a restaurant, haha. Just pinyin for me.


----------



## Xue Sheng

fenglong said:


> @Student
> 
> I spent about 10 years with Hong Quan (Hung Ga) and Taekwondo, besides a little Thaiboxing, Taijiquan and weapon forms.
> 
> I think I kept most from Taekwondo, yet I spent a lot of time and energy getting rid of things that had become a second nature to me.
> Keeping experience and knowledge is one thing, but snapping back into old patterns is not what I want.
> 
> I did a total of 4 trips to and through China, doing all sorts of things. Looking for a master/a MA I want to learn, doing some jobs, collecting experience with the actual life in China.
> I speak a little Mandarin, I think all the traveling didn't do well to my Chinese skill. ^^
> Last time I spent 3 months in Chongqing where the local dialect kept confusing me as it was often same or similar words but different tones compared to Mandarin.
> 
> As for hanzi, I think I could read a few things on a menu in a restaurant, haha. Just pinyin for me.


 
Thank You

IMO it is from those old patterns that the new ones will grow if you are looking to start your own type of MA it needs a root and that root comes from those patterns.



> The physical methods are based on elements, their biochemic effects to the human body and aim for health, performance increase and maximized efficiency.


 
That pretty much describes all martial arts, they just may not have used the word &#8220;biochemic&#8221; 



> -The mental methods are based on elements and their psychic effects to the human brain and aim for a clear and focused mind, reduced negative influence of emotions and pain and increased motivation by affecting the personal mood.


 
Again this is pretty much a description of many martial arts



> -The spiritual/philosophical methods are meant for social practice, considering they require a certain life style and a vast amount of dedication I consider this part of my MA to be just for myself. Since my earliest childhood I am obsessed with certain nature forces, they have drawn a red line through my entire life and even I needed several years to finally decide whether to live for this philosophy.


 
All MAs have a root philosophy

IMO, and take it for what it is worth you can find your own way but you may be looking to distance yourself when you should be looking closer to the root of your root MA or what MA is and not trying to redefine it based on what appears to me to be semantics. Basically don&#8217;t try and reinvent the wheel, just come up with a variation of it that fits you.


----------



## fenglong

That is exactly what I DON'T want to do.
What I do is first set myself free from existing patterns so that I can then do seemingly normal/basic things from different perspectives.
Or to keep it simple, in order to find my way into an elemental MA, I need to set myself free from other concepts.

An example: My throwing techniques are based on the element wind. More specifically, on horizontal and vertical movements of the wind, such as circulations.

It is a mixture of intuition, love for the elements and creativity that keeps me going and the success showing up from time to time.

I am not saying it will be one of the most effective MA in a certain aspect, but my inventions definitely have their right to exist inside my MA.


----------



## Steve

I think that this is great.  I've read dozens of threads started by people who are creating their own unique MA style, but they're mostly teenagers with delusions of grandeur.  I can tell from your posts that you are a very serious martial artist who has studied extensively and can really add value to the MA community.  I only hope that we (as a group) are open minded enough to really benefit from you.

I was flying toward the mat one time, after getting caught in a pretty high amplitude fireman's carry.  It was EXACTLY like being caught up in the current of a tornado.  Elemental, to say the least.

Anyway, i can tell that you're different because you're very specific about your credentials and you've traveled to China FOUR TIMES!  That's awesome.


----------



## Touch Of Death

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Good Luck with that... I think you are going to need alot more exposure and time training to put anything worthwhile together, and I still doubt it would creative and new.
> I might suggest to you to instead of trying to start your own martial art, to continue training and learning other martial arts and start developing your own style of expressing those martial arts, and possibly work on a life philosphy to combine the martial arts with your creative nature, I can almost guarantee you will get a much better response to that then coming around and saying you have trained for 10 years and are now going to make your own martial art.


That's almost a positive response. I think its a good thing, and I think its a good thing Mr. Parker or Bruce Lee didn't listen to this type of advice when they developed their own systems.
Sean


----------



## Flying Crane

fenglong said:


> An example: My throwing techniques are based on the element wind. More specifically, on horizontal and vertical movements of the wind, such as circulations.


 
could you give some detail about what you are talking about here?  Sounds like you have a concept in your head that must translate into physical technique somehow, but for the rest of us who are not privy to your thoughts, it would be helpful for some detailed explanation.



> I am not saying it will be one of the most effective MA in a certain aspect, but my inventions definitely have their right to exist inside my MA.


 
I will ask, if you are not convinced that your method would be the best at least for yourself, if not objectively, then is there a point in creating something new?  New is good if it is an improvement over the old, at least for yourself.  New for the sake of new, without some real benefit from the change, makes people ask why it is necessary?


----------



## clfsean

fenglong said:


> That is exactly what I DON'T want to do.
> What I do is first set myself free from existing patterns so that I can then do seemingly normal/basic things from different perspectives.
> Or to keep it simple, in order to find my way into an elemental MA, I need to set myself free from other concepts.



That's more mindset than physical description. Watch "Needle Through Brick" on Hulu. There's an old Southern Praying Mantis guy there that says simply (paraphrasing) that his hands move on their own. He doesn't think or plan or anything like that. They move on their own accord where needed. That's mindset from focused practice. I don't believe that can be forced into a physical training regimen to get there. You have to spend the time focusing on something to let it become its own. IMHO anyway, for what that's worth. 



fenglong said:


> An example: My throwing techniques are based on the element wind. More specifically, on horizontal and vertical movements of the wind, such as circulations.



But all throwing techniques involve exactly what you describe. Maybe minus the wind reference, but all throws/projections/takedowns involve a degree of making a circle. 



fenglong said:


> It is a mixture of intuition, love for the elements and creativity that keeps me going and the success showing up from time to time.



Cool... but keep your feet grounded.



fenglong said:


> I am not saying it will be one of the most effective MA in a certain aspect, but my inventions definitely have their right to exist inside my MA.



Of course they do, but you might want to look around & see if you're not doing something that is already around, tried & proven, before shouting "EUREKA". There's only so many ways of doing "X" to somebody.


----------



## fenglong

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fenglong*
> 
> 
> _An example: My throwing techniques  are based on the element wind. More specifically, on horizontal and  vertical movements of the wind, such as circulations._
> 
> could you give some detail about what you are talking about here?   Sounds like you have a concept in your head that must translate into  physical technique somehow, but for the rest of us who are not privy to  your thoughts, it would be helpful for some detailed explanation.



Well, instead of using a certain animal or isolated scientific findings as guide, I try to completely follow the "path of the storms".
In ancient China, certain people spent their entire life mastering the style of a certain animal, which is in my opinion the only way to really master a style.
But how exactly do you go about mastering a certain style? You need to realize and experience the spirit of the style.

Whether the spirit of praying mantis in Tanglang Quan or the spirit of enduring in Kyokushin, I believe to really master a MA you need to follow the spirit of it.

The spirit of my style is the storm. Simply because I am obsessed with storms since my childhood and whenever I get the chance to stand inside a storm or thunderstorm, I can feel again what I live for.

Now what appeals me is the challenge of converting the concepts, the spirit of certain nature forces into exercisable methods of practice. I guess that already attracted those who founded animal styles? ...

To get back to my wind throwing techniques: I try to convert the unpredigtable circulating behavior of wind circulations into stable, yet highly flexible, effective and overwhelming techniques.
Throws, joint work, dodges, deflections etc...




> Quote:
> I am not saying it will be one of the most effective MA in a certain  aspect, but my inventions definitely have their right to exist inside  my MA.
> I will ask, if you are not convinced that your method would be the  best at least for yourself, if not objectively, then is there a point  in creating something new?  New is good if it is an improvement over the  old, at least for yourself.  New for the sake of new, without some real  benefit from the change, makes people ask why it is necessary?



I am totally convinced about my method and it is definitely the best style for myself.
Just ain't going to say it is better than other styles because even though I try to make it the best possible, my primary goal is simply advancing myself and being happy with the way I do it.


----------



## Xue Sheng

China also used elements not just animals and a storm can be classified in elements in China


----------



## fenglong

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fenglong*
> 
> 
> _That is exactly what I DON'T want to do.
> What I do is first set myself free from existing patterns so that I can  then do seemingly normal/basic things from different perspectives.
> Or to keep it simple, in order to find my way into an elemental MA, I need to set myself free from other concepts._
> 
> That's more mindset than physical description. Watch "Needle  Through Brick" on Hulu. There's an old Southern Praying Mantis guy there  that says simply (paraphrasing) that his hands move on their own. He  doesn't think or plan or anything like that. They move on their own  accord where needed. That's mindset from focused practice. I don't  believe that can be forced into a physical training regimen to get  there. You have to spend the time focusing on something to let it become  its own. IMHO anyway, for what that's worth.


I agree. There is always the difficult splits between doing something in a certain way because of a certain intention and doing it in its own natural way by practicing completely free of intentions.
I often caught myself putting too much energy into a certain intention and completely failing to notice and act by the nature of things.

Fortunately my wind philosophy helps me there.
"Disengage, clarify, be Wind."
Which means that you need to get rid of the bonds of tension and meaningless wishes, let go all the stagnating things on your mind and once you can see your inside clear as air, you will entirely flow like wind.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fenglong*
> 
> 
> _I am not saying it will be one of  the most effective MA in a certain aspect, but my inventions definitely  have their right to exist inside my MA._
> 
> Of course they do, but you might want to look around & see if  you're not doing something that is already around, tried & proven,  before shouting "EUREKA". There's only so many ways of doing "X" to  somebody.


I'm not saying I'm doing something new. I was looking for styles related to concepts of nature forces for years. I even found some styles related to wind but in the end I also go my own way to fully understand each single move, action and detail.

Also, it is just about storms, you know? Some like storms, some don't.
The reason I am here is to find people I can chat about my style with in order to see things from different perspectives, compare experiences and in the end enhance my methods.


----------



## fenglong

stevebjj said:


> ...
> I was flying toward the mat one time, after getting caught in a pretty high amplitude fireman's carry.  It was EXACTLY like being caught up in the current of a tornado.  Elemental, to say the least.
> 
> ...



Speaking about flying... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8IITzh0WpA&feature=related
2:40 is my favorite move. ^^


----------



## Flying Crane

fenglong said:


> Well, instead of using a certain animal or isolated scientific findings as guide, I try to completely follow the "path of the storms".
> In ancient China, certain people spent their entire life mastering the style of a certain animal, which is in my opinion the only way to really master a style.
> But how exactly do you go about mastering a certain style? You need to realize and experience the spirit of the style.
> 
> Whether the spirit of praying mantis in Tanglang Quan or the spirit of enduring in Kyokushin, I believe to really master a MA you need to follow the spirit of it.
> 
> The spirit of my style is the storm. Simply because I am obsessed with storms since my childhood and whenever I get the chance to stand inside a storm or thunderstorm, I can feel again what I live for.
> 
> Now what appeals me is the challenge of converting the concepts, the spirit of certain nature forces into exercisable methods of practice. I guess that already attracted those who founded animal styles? ...
> 
> To get back to my wind throwing techniques: I try to convert the unpredigtable circulating behavior of wind circulations into stable, yet highly flexible, effective and overwhelming techniques.
> Throws, joint work, dodges, deflections etc...


 
I am a follower of an animal style myself, and I know how the foundation of my method works, how it translates into a physical technique, and what the ultimate goal of our training is.  What I believe most people misunderstand about animal styles is that the intent is NOT to fight in a stylized "animal" way.  Rather, the animal techniques are a methodology used in training that brings us to being able to deliver a technique in a certain manner.  In short, the ultimate goal is to have no recognizable form at all when we throw a technique, and the animal method brings us there, if it is properly understood.

At least this is the way it is in the method that I study.

As for the rest, could you describe a specific throwing technique, and explain how the concept of wind or storm drives the technique?





> I am totally convinced about my method and it is definitely the best style for myself.
> Just ain't going to say it is better than other styles because even though I try to make it the best possible, my primary goal is simply advancing myself and being happy with the way I do it.


 
if it's the best for you, then it's a good thing, for you.


----------



## Aiki Lee

Your circular wind like movments remind me aikido. Perhaps there is some lessons there to incorporate into what you are considering.

Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, and even Miyamoto Musashi observed what other people were doing to get an idea of how to shape their approaches.


----------



## fenglong

> I am a follower of an animal style myself, and I know how the foundation  of my method works, how it translates into a physical technique, and  what the ultimate goal of our training is.  What I believe most people  misunderstand about animal styles is that the intent is NOT to fight in a  stylized "animal" way.  Rather, the animal techniques are a methodology  used in training that brings us to being able to deliver a technique in  a certain manner.  In short, the ultimate goal is to have no  recognizable form at all when we throw a technique, and the animal  method brings us there, if it is properly understood.
> 
> At least this is the way it is in the method that I study.


Hm I see. The Hong Quan we practiced was a collection of animal forms as well and I rather learned to focus on the advantages of each animal. For example the ferocity in the tiger form, the unpredictability in the snake form and so on.
But I must admit I never spent as much time into figuring the spirit of those forms as I do with the storm style, or as other people may do.



> As for the rest, could you describe a specific throwing technique, and  explain how the concept of wind or storm drives the technique?


In my wind techniques you focus on a certain Qigong/visualization methods which ensures flowing breathing and movements. The idea is to prevent cramping of any kind, whether physical or mental.

I will try to explain 2 throws, they may look pretty much as in Aikido or Hwarangdo, yet the method of execution is wind-specific.

You may be able to get it done the way it is meant when you do it slowly and flowing.




Throw against: Straight right hand punch with right foot infront.

Throw number 1:

1 You begin in a an everyday life posture, no special combat stance.
2 Pick up your left hand and left foot and the same time. The left arm slightly bent, the foot keeps contact to the ground, you will use it to slide.
3 Your left hand moves inwards and the left arm bends further to maximize the left/right control by adding another direction, towards your face.
4 Now your left foot slides towards the left, together with your torso/head to dodge the punch. At same time your right arm goes up in the center position of your body, slightly bent.
5 As the left foot arrives at its position, not too far away so you can hold contact to the opponent, the right back of your hand moves to the attacking arm, around ellboy height of the attacking arm, to support the deflection action of the left hand.
6 When straightening your right arm and moving it to the right across the attacking arm, your right foot and weight move towards the enemy so that you can execute an inner knife hand attack to the chin, throat or simply hook under the chin.
7 In this moment you place your right foot behind the right or left foot of the attacker and apply a hip throw to the left.


Throw number 2:

1-5 as in number 1

6 Your entire body turns to the right to deflect and abuse the attacking force, right arm  following the direction of the attacking force, right foot moving a step or 2 behind your left foot facing the attacking arm you can now grab the wrist area with your right hand and place your left hand on the elbow of the attacking arm.
7 Apply a lock by pressing your left hand onto the ellbow and pulling with your right arm towards yourself. Use your circulation force to throw him by turning yourself until you are facing the direction your opponent is facing, set down your right foot in a wider stance to apply enough leverage to throw your opponent out of balance.
8 Push him to the ground with your elbow lock.



Opposed to other methods, when being thrown you may still depend on physical rules but the constant flow that has become second nature to you will ensure a constantly minimized tonicity and maximized body control under any circumstance.
Preventing automated cramping in situations when your body notices the sudden lack of balance due to getting thrown, this method should still allow you to react completely free and independent from instincts, allowing you to do counter moves.


----------



## fenglong

Himura Kenshin said:


> Your circular wind like movments remind me aikido. Perhaps there is some lessons there to incorporate into what you are considering.
> 
> Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, and even Miyamoto Musashi observed what other people were doing to get an idea of how to shape their approaches.



Yes, I watch a lot of videos to find inspiration.
But it happened the other way around as well. I found a lot of styles which use similar moves as the ones I already use in my own style.

There is always the topic of copycating, if not in conversations then atleast on my mind as I notice similarities between the moves I come up with and the moves I have seen somewhere.

Nevertheless, practicing by rules of storms I just use things that flow the right way and the storm Qigong makes my moves what they are meant to be, not just physical copies.


----------



## Flying Crane

fenglong said:


> Hm I see. The Hong Quan we practiced was a collection of animal forms as well and I rather learned to focus on the advantages of each animal. For example the ferocity in the tiger form, the unpredictability in the snake form and so on.
> But I must admit I never spent as much time into figuring the spirit of those forms as I do with the storm style, or as other people may do.


 
I can only speak for what I am doing and my understanding of it.  I cannot speak for others.



> In my wind techniques you focus on a certain Qigong/visualization methods which ensures flowing breathing and movements. The idea is to prevent cramping of any kind, whether physical or mental.
> 
> I will try to explain 2 throws, they may look pretty much as in Aikido or Hwarangdo, yet the method of execution is wind-specific.
> 
> You may be able to get it done the way it is meant when you do it slowly and flowing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Throw against: Straight right hand punch with right foot infront.
> 
> Throw number 1:
> 
> 1 You begin in a an everyday life posture, no special combat stance.
> 2 Pick up your left hand and left foot and the same time. The left arm slightly bent, the foot keeps contact to the ground, you will use it to slide.
> 3 Your left hand moves inwards and the left arm bends further to maximize the left/right control by adding another direction, towards your face.
> 4 Now your left foot slides towards the left, together with your torso/head to dodge the punch. At same time your right arm goes up in the center position of your body, slightly bent.
> 5 As the left foot arrives at its position, not too far away so you can hold contact to the opponent, the right back of your hand moves to the attacking arm, around ellboy height of the attacking arm, to support the deflection action of the left hand.
> 6 When straightening your right arm and moving it to the right across the attacking arm, your right foot and weight move towards the enemy so that you can execute an inner knife hand attack to the chin, throat or simply hook under the chin.
> 7 In this moment you place your right foot behind the right or left foot of the attacker and apply a hip throw to the left.
> 
> 
> Throw number 2:
> 
> 1-5 as in number 1
> 
> 6 Your entire body turns to the right to deflect and abuse the attacking force, right arm following the direction of the attacking force, right foot moving a step or 2 behind your left foot facing the attacking arm you can now grab the wrist area with your right hand and place your left hand on the elbow of the attacking arm.
> 7 Apply a lock by pressing your left hand onto the ellbow and pulling with your right arm towards yourself. Use your circulation force to throw him by turning yourself until you are facing the direction your opponent is facing, set down your right foot in a wider stance to apply enough leverage to throw your opponent out of balance.
> 8 Push him to the ground with your elbow lock.
> 
> 
> 
> Opposed to other methods, when being thrown you may still depend on physical rules but the constant flow that has become second nature to you will ensure a constantly minimized tonicity and maximized body control under any circumstance.
> Preventing automated cramping in situations when your body notices the sudden lack of balance due to getting thrown, this method should still allow you to react completely free and independent from instincts, allowing you to do counter moves.


 
I'm not trying to give you a hard time over this, but I still don't understand specifically what about these examples is "wind".  I get the physical description (sort of, these are difficult in writing without being able to show the technique), but I don't see what makes it "wind".

thanks


----------



## Bill Mattocks

stevebjj said:


> I think that this is great.  I've read dozens of threads started by people who are creating their own unique MA style, but they're mostly teenagers with delusions of grandeur.  I can tell from your posts that you are a very serious martial artist who has studied extensively and can really add value to the MA community.  I only hope that we (as a group) are open minded enough to really benefit from you.
> 
> I was flying toward the mat one time, after getting caught in a pretty high amplitude fireman's carry.  It was EXACTLY like being caught up in the current of a tornado.  Elemental, to say the least.
> 
> Anyway, i can tell that you're different because you're very specific about your credentials and you've traveled to China FOUR TIMES!  That's awesome.



:asian:


----------



## fenglong

> I can only speak for what I am doing and my understanding of it.  I cannot speak for others.



Yea same here, it interesting to learn about different concepts.



> I'm not trying to give you a hard time over this, but I still don't  understand specifically what about these examples is "wind".  I get the  physical description (sort of, these are difficult in writing without  being able to show the technique), but I don't see what makes it "wind".



The way moves are executed and the mental/energetic methods supporting them.
Learning from and utilizing the attributes of the wind in any possible way.
First of all, wind is a soft element, similar to the attributes of water being utilized by Taijiquan styles, wind moves are used to avoid and redirect attacks, but also exploit attacking forces or overwhelm the opponent.

I also use wind Qigong to fix tension, lower pain response and increase endurance/strength. Certain breathing and visualization techniques.

I can't tell what exactly happens inside my body when I use those techniques and why exactly they seem to work.
I have been practicing and testing them for about 2 years and I'm guessing they affect adrenaline output, but thats really just a guess.


----------



## Indagator

Good luck. The only other suggestion I could make to you here, based upon what I have read, would be to attend training in person with other styles rather than incorporate what you glean from video/film footage. The reason being that if you are present in person you can experience a transmission of the principles in a deeper manner than watching footage as well as opening up a larger conceptual dynamic in terms of what you are looking at doing.

Your approach is commendable - I myself adhere to certain principles which you have touched on here, specifically the concepts that each individuals interpretation of the truths inherent in any MA will be at least slightly unique to them. We travel many paths on the same journey, and no man's path is ever quite the same as anothers!

Good on you, anyway, you seem to take what you are doing seriously and have presented yourself with humility and a respectful attitude - these two factors alone should serve to separate you at least surfactorily from the "blowhards" and nonsense-men that crop up from time to time.

Enjoy the journey, dude!


----------



## Indie12

Well I wish you the best of luck.... It is not as easy as it seems, you need a solid base, and you need to have a direction in which you want to see your Art go, that and a handy dandy name always helps.

Be prepared for criticism, doubts, challenges, and questions. The hardship of "creating" and then having your own system is hard. (I know from personal experience)... It has to be unique, you could (and it does sound like this) that you have a hybrid system, which is what most of the "new founders of systems" are now doing. It's not as easy as most think, and you need some kind of philosophy, system, Art, and techniques to distinguish it from one Art to another.

But if you believe you can accomplish it and 'create' your own unique style and art, go for it! Long as you can stand opposition and challenges and your System can stand up to the challenges, by all means push forward!

My only true concern regarding this is you said you have only 15 years. Although you seem to have quite the list of training experience, years of experience are what will help when creating a system, although I will say from personal experience, through your art you gain experience and years!!

Sounds to me like you have a good plan, the challenge will be putting it together and sharing with the world!

I agree, Humility and Respect is what will make your Art stand out!! 

Best of Luck to you!! 

"The Journey is what brings us happiness, not the destination" Peaceful Warrior By Dan Millman


----------



## mook jong man

I too have explored the element of wind in my own martial arts journey.
There was one particular instance I remember that was quite frightening in its intensity and power .

It happened after eating these.


----------



## 72ronin

It is said, that if you partake in a feast of eggs and beans, and certain other secret ingredients,
That you will attain the power to kill a man without physical contact, and im certain it carries the name of a wind attack...
Joking 

I think your just in the process of.. melding together what you have learned over time. Perhaps kind of internalising it in a better way for you to act without thought or pre-conceived technique, and for you, it best melds with your wind reference.
The best way to really test/cement this, Is through strong resistance sparring in my opinion.

To addapt, change during technique is most important. Take the first technique you describe some posts back, in that scenario, if needed, before you commit the right foot deeply to throw, you could change to sweep with the left foot, instantly and smoothly.

Kind of a backup to the innitial technique. And i think you are touching on a way to understand this without thought process during sparring/resistance etc
Kind of like the ability to "change" in Bagua, or simply technique flow in some other systems. If it translates as moving like/with the wind or elements to you then thats great, you have found your way.


----------



## Xue Sheng

fenglong

I have been reading through all this and don&#8217;t get me wrong I do think you have the background to do what you are trying to do&#8230;kinda sorta.

You have the background but you appear to be trying real hard to break away from your root and that IMO is not going to get you anywhere and leave you spending the next several years just spinning your wheels. I personally feel that you would do better off the foundation that you have and not ripping it out and building a new one.

But this is only my opinion and I could be wrong. 

Either way I wish you luck


----------



## Chris Parker

Hmm, I'm going to be rather blunt here.

One thing I've noticed is that the vast majority of people who talk about creating their own martial art have little to no idea of what actually makes something a martial art in the first place. Typically the person has some ideas (consciously thought out), but frankly there is no real understanding or knowledge backing anything up. And honestly, I see a lot of that here.

This comes from the very first post, where you ask for "creative" people for productive chat/exchange of ideas, and that is not something that should really have any part of creating a new art whatsoever. If you were looking for choreography, fine, but not a martial art. A martial art requires a guiding philosophy, and that is not something that can be consciously decided on, or discussed with a commitee. It has to be based in itself, really, and outside influence of the type mentioned can only take it further from what it is meant to be.

You mention that you are looking for "innovative answers", which again is not going to lead in the right direction. Innovative can be fine, even good, but looking specifically for it (which I'm taking from your phrasing about "creativity", "obsessive creativity", and so on) is again just the wrong approach. If it is effective, realistic, powerful, you'll most likely find that it isn't innovative, as it will have been discovered many years ago, centuries most likely, and if it is innovative, it probably isn't realistic or effective.

You then mention that you will be creating this art from scratch... again, not really possible. For one thing, anything you do will be based around the previous experiences you have had, so you can't start from scratch, and if you could, the only way to actually do that would be to go out and get into as many fights as possible within the confines or environments that you want to apply the system, and see what works. Anything other than that is purely fantasy.

There's a lot more here, but I don't want to overwhelm things. 

To balance it out, though, you may have something, depending on how naturally you take to these things, and the depth of your previous study. Can you put together something on video so we can see what you are talking about, for example in the throwing examples you gave? I think I follow what you're talking about, but I'm not sure where the "wind" aspect is (like Flying Crane).


----------



## fenglong

For some reason it won't let me edit my own posts anymore.
There is a mistake in the Throw number 2, section 6: Instead of placing the right foot behind the left, you are supposed to describe a right circle with it.


----------



## fenglong

72ronin said:


> It is said, that if you partake in a feast of eggs and beans, and certain other secret ingredients,
> That you will attain the power to kill a man without physical contact, and im certain it carries the name of a wind attack...
> Joking
> 
> I think your just in the process of.. melding together what you have learned over time. Perhaps kind of internalising it in a better way for you to act without thought or pre-conceived technique, and for you, it best melds with your wind reference.
> The best way to really test/cement this, Is through strong resistance sparring in my opinion.
> 
> To addapt, change during technique is most important. Take the first technique you describe some posts back, in that scenario, if needed, before you commit the right foot deeply to throw, you could change to sweep with the left foot, instantly and smoothly.
> 
> Kind of a backup to the innitial technique. And i think you are touching on a way to understand this without thought process during sparring/resistance etc
> Kind of like the ability to "change" in Bagua, or simply technique flow in some other systems. If it translates as moving like/with the wind or elements to you then thats great, you have found your way.



I do not simply keep what I formerly learned. I use the experience I managed to gather but In order to actually come up with a technique based on wind attributes I must set myself free from formerly learned techniques.


The ability to instantly change direction is inherent to wind and an important aspect of my MA, yet one of the tougher ones to realize.
The biggest challenge seems to be to maximize flexibility without lowering solidness of the stances and power/leverage force of the techniques.
Although, I have also found a way to overcome this problem, by applying wind Qigong in the founding process. Without the right "windy feeling", a technique wont make it into my collection. But the maximization of flexibility in an effective and efficient frame will remain the most vital and most difficult to realize aspect I believe.


----------



## Aiki Lee

fenglong said:


> For some reason it won't let me edit my own posts anymore.
> There is a mistake in the Throw number 2, section 6: Instead of placing the right foot behind the left, you are supposed to describe a right circle with it.


 
You can ony change the last post you made, and then I believe that also is time sensitive. 

The storm imagery is kinda neat. I too like to watch storms, but like Chris said you need a martial philosophy that is different from what is currently available. I think it is unlikely anyone can start from scratch and not expect to just recreate the wheel, but you already have hundreds of years of material to work from so why not build off what you know like Xue Sheng said?

I think the way to develope "new" martial arts isn't to come up with something from scratch but to take existing approaches and find new ways to use them. That's what my art of aiki ninjutsu is. My teachers didn't start from scratch and "create" anything. They took different martial arts and saw how their principles and philosophies can be used together. The art is unique because the approach is different and specific skills are created as a result that are different from the schools our art originated from, but again, none of the skills themselves are actually new, just they way they are structured and taught.


----------



## 72ronin

Fenglong,
As you can see here, these three actions derive from a single technique set or form.
So many possibilities from the same palm change within Bagua.
I guess my point here is, you must keep/have a base to.. set free from.


----------



## fenglong

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, I'm going to be rather blunt here.
> 
> One thing I've noticed is that the vast majority of people who talk about creating their own martial art have little to no idea of what actually makes something a martial art in the first place. Typically the person has some ideas (consciously thought out), but frankly there is no real understanding or knowledge backing anything up. And honestly, I see a lot of that here.
> 
> This comes from the very first post, where you ask for "creative" people for productive chat/exchange of ideas, and that is not something that should really have any part of creating a new art whatsoever. If you were looking for choreography, fine, but not a martial art. A martial art requires a guiding philosophy, and that is not something that can be consciously decided on, or discussed with a commitee. It has to be based in itself, really, and outside influence of the type mentioned can only take it further from what it is meant to be.
> 
> You mention that you are looking for "innovative answers", which again is not going to lead in the right direction. Innovative can be fine, even good, but looking specifically for it (which I'm taking from your phrasing about "creativity", "obsessive creativity", and so on) is again just the wrong approach. If it is effective, realistic, powerful, you'll most likely find that it isn't innovative, as it will have been discovered many years ago, centuries most likely, and if it is innovative, it probably isn't realistic or effective.
> 
> You then mention that you will be creating this art from scratch... again, not really possible. For one thing, anything you do will be based around the previous experiences you have had, so you can't start from scratch, and if you could, the only way to actually do that would be to go out and get into as many fights as possible within the confines or environments that you want to apply the system, and see what works. Anything other than that is purely fantasy.
> 
> There's a lot more here, but I don't want to overwhelm things.
> 
> To balance it out, though, you may have something, depending on how naturally you take to these things, and the depth of your previous study. Can you put together something on video so we can see what you are talking about, for example in the throwing examples you gave? I think I follow what you're talking about, but I'm not sure where the "wind" aspect is (like Flying Crane).



I am totally aware of all these problems, please keep in mind there is more behind me than I write on a forum.





> One thing I've noticed is that the vast majority of people who talk  about creating their own martial art have little to no idea of what  actually makes something a martial art in the first place. Typically the  person has some ideas (consciously thought out), but frankly there is  no real understanding or knowledge backing anything up. And honestly, I  see a lot of that here.



It may be a normal phenomenon that knowledge in its pure form is invisible. =p

Believe me, I made a lot of experience and I am still making them.
The difference between me and some other people may be that I make experience more intensively, as my brain is constantly analyzing everything.
People keep telling me "stop thinking". That, honestly, is the most difficult part for me, especially when I meditate.




> This comes from the very first post, where you ask for "creative" people  for productive chat/exchange of ideas, and that is not something that  should really have any part of creating a new art whatsoever. If you  were looking for choreography, fine, but not a martial art. A martial  art requires a guiding philosophy, and that is not something that can be  consciously decided on, or discussed with a commitee. It has to be  based in itself, really, and outside influence of the type mentioned can  only take it further from what it is meant to be.



I agree, my philosophy is the storm and I highly base everything on it.
Yet, you must agree, creative feedback may atleast stimulate you to think into unexpected directions and you may learn something from it or look at things from a new perspective.
In the end, of course everything goes through my filter, I won't use ideas from someone simply because they told me to...(one of the reasons I quit learning from "masters").

A person telling me to make a choreography would most likely make me think about the psychological effect of "overwhelming" or "impressives" moves/actions in a real combat situation. Although, in the end, I will stick to whatever feels truely wind in my opinion.




> You mention that you are looking for "innovative answers", which again  is not going to lead in the right direction. Innovative can be fine,  even good, but looking specifically for it (which I'm taking from your  phrasing about "creativity", "obsessive creativity", and so on) is again  just the wrong approach. If it is effective, realistic, powerful,  you'll most likely find that it isn't innovative, as it will have been  discovered many years ago, centuries most likely, and if it is  innovative, it probably isn't realistic or effective.



Exactly, that is the issue of creating with intentions I mentioned in an earlier post.
Fortunately, I do not rely on being effective but on keeping the spirit of the storms.
I am happiest, the closer I can get to what storms mean and feel like to me.
Then again, effectiveness has automatically come with that strategy, unlike my first 1 year where I kept worrying and focusing on effectiveness, which not only tied me up inside a neverending spinning wheel of effectivity problems, but also brought me further and further away from my original goal, living for the spirit of storms.
As for the creativity part, like with everything in life, you need to find the right balance. I often had to remind myself to stick to the wind and not overdo the creativity.
But after a while, the more I get used to a certain flow, the less I struggle with such problems.




> You then mention that you will be creating this art from scratch...  again, not really possible. For one thing, anything you do will be based  around the previous experiences you have had, so you can't start from  scratch, and if you could, the only way to actually do that would be to  go out and get into as many fights as possible within the confines or  environments that you want to apply the system, and see what works.  Anything other than that is purely fantasy.



I agree and disagree. Everything is relative, even a blank page is. There is nothing but white space on a blank page, but then again, only a blank page can be a blank page, not a human or a place.

By creating from the scratch, I mean exactly the opposite of what Xue Sheng keeps telling me to do, using a root MA.

Instead, my root is the storm.
When I began with creating my attacks I tried to put myself into the position of someone who has never executed or seen a punch in their life. Why do people punch the way they punch? In such a moment only 1 thing counts for me, the storm.
My punches go by the ideal of lightning, in order to figure what that is supposed to be like, I had to think and philosophize and research a while about lightnings.

Before I could get to my current version of lightning punching method, I had to find out that it needs to be done with wind aspects within.
My first few weeks of lightning punch practice ended up with the same results as all the regular punching practice methods I learned in all the external MAs I trained: long term tonicity increase, strength increase, loss of flexibility and speed. A tradeoff I do not want.
At last I managed to combine wind and lightning concepts in a way that allows me to increase my strength and even decrease my long term tonicity, thus making me faster and conserving my flexibility.

The rought concept of a lightning punch is to maximize speed and force within minimized time and position.




> To balance it out, though, you may have something, depending on how  naturally you take to these things, and the depth of your previous  study. Can you put together something on video so we can see what you  are talking about, for example in the throwing examples you gave? I  think I follow what you're talking about, but I'm not sure where the  "wind" aspect is (like Flying Crane).



Yes, well, I am getting to the point where I really must try to make a video.
I have no local friends to assist me with equipment and presence, my daily routine looks like that of any other obsessed artist. No cash, little food and sleep and constantly practicing, in my case inside my room or the shared garden.

Someday I should go and say hi to my former MA school mate Dema, he got his own school running with his son. http://www.meister-dema.de.tl/Bilder.htm  (pictures can be found under "Bilder" in the left column.)


I guess I should be able to get to


----------



## fenglong

@Himura Kenshin, 72ronin

As I said, my root, like the vast collection of developed techniques in Aiki Ninjutsu or the Taoism, specifically the Xingyi in Bagua, is the storm.
Basicly like... meditating and philosophizing about the storms, trying to become one with them until your moves adapt.
That is easierly done when there are no preset, second nature concepts and moves occupying your reflexes.


----------



## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> fenglong
> 
> I have been reading through all this and dont get me wrong I do think you have the background to do what you are trying to dokinda sorta.
> 
> You have the background but you appear to be trying real hard to break away from your root and that IMO is not going to get you anywhere and leave you spending the next several years just spinning your wheels. I personally feel that you would do better off the foundation that you have and not ripping it out and building a new one.
> 
> But this is only my opinion and I could be wrong.
> 
> Either way I wish you luck


 
good post, and another way to express it is: nothing is ever created in a vacuum.  Nobody ever built a martial art from nothing.  Every art came from something else, the progenitors all had some form of training in SOMETHING before they created something else.  And that new thing usually has a lot in common with the first thing.  Ain't nuthin wrong with that.


----------



## jks9199

You've mentioned several times that your system is based on "the elements" but you've ducked it every time you were asked to explain what you mean by this.

What elemental system are you deriving your principles from?  You've talked about "wind" and "lightning."  How many elements do you use?  Which of them?  How do they relate?  For example, Stephen Hayes really played up one elemental model to describe his understanding and development of ninjutsu.  Earth, air, water, fire, and void each describe underlying emotional states as well as principles of movement and reaction.  How does your system compare?


----------



## Chris Parker

Hmm. Okay, I'll be blunter.

The mother of invention is not desire, it's necessity. And the way you're approaching this is far from the way a martial art is created. By simply choosing something that you like (wind, storms), and trying to force that into a martial concept, you have completely missed the point of how such things actually work. You are trying to apply conscious mind approaches (which includes ideas of logic and common sense) to the idea of creating a martial art, where they have really little to no place at all. Your brain "constantly analyzing things" is the opposite of what would be required.

When it comes to your philosophy, "the storm" is not a philosophy. It's an abstract concept to which you are applying your values. As for your filter, the question would be how your filter is able to differentiate what is good or not. The other thing, of course, is that if this is your concept, how could anyone else even begin to add anything to your ideas?

I get that you like storms, but that's really not enough for creating a martial art. But to give you some ideas, here's a list of questions for you to answer. Honestly, if you can't then there is no martial art there.

1: What is the power source your art uses?

2: What is the primary angle used?

3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?

4: What is the environment your art is designed for?

5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?

6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?

7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?

8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?

That should be enough for now.


----------



## Aiki Lee

Hey Chris, for number 6 when you talk about rhythm are you referring to timing, as in say the timing of striking an opponent and breaking up patterns of predictable movement?

If not, then I this is the only section of your list that I am not understanding.


----------



## Chris Parker

That's part of it, but that's more about breaking rhythms. Not sure how much I want to put here until Fenglong answers, as understanding what seperates out one arts rhythm from another is an important thing if you're going to create one.... but for a hint, look to each and every Koto Ryu defence against a strike, and contrast it with their defences against grabbing attacks. Hopefully I can add more later.....


----------



## fenglong

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. Okay, I'll be blunter.
> 
> The mother of invention is not desire, it's necessity. And the way you're approaching this is far from the way a martial art is created. By simply choosing something that you like (wind, storms), and trying to force that into a martial concept, you have completely missed the point of how such things actually work. You are trying to apply conscious mind approaches (which includes ideas of logic and common sense) to the idea of creating a martial art, where they have really little to no place at all. Your brain "constantly analyzing things" is the opposite of what would be required.
> 
> When it comes to your philosophy, "the storm" is not a philosophy. It's an abstract concept to which you are applying your values. As for your filter, the question would be how your filter is able to differentiate what is good or not. The other thing, of course, is that if this is your concept, how could anyone else even begin to add anything to your ideas?
> 
> I get that you like storms, but that's really not enough for creating a martial art. But to give you some ideas, here's a list of questions for you to answer. Honestly, if you can't then there is no martial art there.
> 
> 1: What is the power source your art uses?
> 
> 2: What is the primary angle used?
> 
> 3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?
> 
> 4: What is the environment your art is designed for?
> 
> 5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?
> 
> 6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?
> 
> 7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?
> 
> 8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?
> 
> That should be enough for now.



When I see such stuff I'm totally not surprised most people don't manage to develop their own styles even when they try...


----------



## Indie12

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. Okay, I'll be blunter.
> 
> The mother of invention is not desire, it's necessity. And the way you're approaching this is far from the way a martial art is created. By simply choosing something that you like (wind, storms), and trying to force that into a martial concept, you have completely missed the point of how such things actually work. You are trying to apply conscious mind approaches (which includes ideas of logic and common sense) to the idea of creating a martial art, where they have really little to no place at all. Your brain "constantly analyzing things" is the opposite of what would be required.
> 
> When it comes to your philosophy, "the storm" is not a philosophy. It's an abstract concept to which you are applying your values. As for your filter, the question would be how your filter is able to differentiate what is good or not. The other thing, of course, is that if this is your concept, how could anyone else even begin to add anything to your ideas?
> 
> I get that you like storms, but that's really not enough for creating a martial art. But to give you some ideas, here's a list of questions for you to answer. Honestly, if you can't then there is no martial art there.
> 
> 1: What is the power source your art uses?
> 
> 2: What is the primary angle used?
> 
> 3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?
> 
> 4: What is the environment your art is designed for?
> 
> 5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?
> 
> 6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?
> 
> 7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?
> 
> 8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?
> 
> That should be enough for now.


 
Well I'll add that especially the hybrid systems, that many systems may not include the items you mentioned...

I have a few questions:

1) what 'power source' are you referring to?

2) What would be your criteria for creating a new Martial Arts system? or method?

I'll agree though, most of those points you mentioned are what create a new system, but that's only half...


----------



## Indie12

fenglong said:


> When I see such stuff I'm totally not surprised most people don't manage to develop their own styles even when they try...


 
Fenglong,

I think what you have to understand about creating your own style, is that it is a process in itself, you really can't just say "oh I'm gonna create my style and here it is". It takes crafting, Art, processing, and being able to put the pieces together.
Truth be told, not everyone can nor should develop their own styles... While I did, I have to say it was a big mistake, and while It is a system in itself, it wasn't no joy ride.... Crafting a style takes years of experience, putting pieces together, trying to mold, shape, bend, and create a different "method" of the Arts... Creating a new system, isn't just a matter of slapping 'this' and 'that' together. It's a huge process!!


----------



## Indie12

Chris Parker said:


> That's part of it, but that's more about breaking rhythms. Not sure how much I want to put here until Fenglong answers, as understanding what seperates out one arts rhythm from another is an important thing if you're going to create one.... but for a hint, look to each and every Koto Ryu defence against a strike, and contrast it with their defences against grabbing attacks. Hopefully I can add more later.....


 
Rhythm is important! But the temple of an Art itself is even more vital... Most if not all the Arts in some way, shape, or form share a common rhythm.... Also you have to look at each art as a leaf off of a tree, they all (no matter where or what they come from) all evolve from the basic same roots.

I'd also add that not every system has a 'rhythm'. If your talking specific defense, not every system has one!


----------



## Chris Parker

Indie12 said:


> Well I'll add that especially the hybrid systems, that many systems may not include the items you mentioned...


 
I would say that the hybrid systems actually do have these things, but not codified into the system itself.... it's typically inherrant in the "founder", a natural understanding that they may not be able to explain themselves, or even pass on (which is why the systems don't tend to work for other people so well). But, realistically, the above aspects are necessary, if they're not present, there is no art.



Indie12 said:


> I have a few questions:
> 
> 1) what 'power source' are you referring to?


 
I'm not refering to any particular "power source", I'm asking Fenglong what the power source used in his "storm" system is. Again, there needs to be a single, congruent power source, otherwise there's nothing for the art to be based on. I'm not going to give examples until I give Fenglong another chance to show that he may actually have some understanding of what he's doing.



Indie12 said:


> 2) What would be your criteria for creating a new Martial Arts system? or method?


 
Firstly, an understanding of what makes something a martial art in the first place, what makes one unique from another, then a reason for the new art to be made (and "because I wanted a cool looking set of moves for a movie" is actually fine.... provided it is understood that that makes it choreography, not a martial art). Finally, some basis in reality, a method of testing, or some established prior experience which forms the basis to the new art (most "new" martial arts are simply adaptations of existing ones, which is why I was pointing out that "from scratch" is not the way these things happen).



Indie12 said:


> I'll agree though, most of those points you mentioned are what create a new system, but that's only half...


 
Oh, I know, this was a gentle introduction for Fenglong to gain some credibility for these concepts and ideas. I could really go into a lot of depth, but frankly don't think it's quite warranted yet.



Indie12 said:


> Rhythm is important! But the temple of an Art itself is even more vital... Most if not all the Arts in some way, shape, or form share a common rhythm.... Also you have to look at each art as a leaf off of a tree, they all (no matter where or what they come from) all evolve from the basic same roots.


 
Hmm, to be honest I have absolutely no idea what you mean by "the temple of an Art" there.... 

As for the rest, it can be read a few different ways, so I'll cover the ones that I seem to be saying here. If you are saying that pretty much all martial arts have their own inherrant rhythm (for that individual system itself), or small group of rhythms, then agreed. That was kinda my point. If, however, you are saying that pretty much all martial arts share the same rhythms, then no they don't. That is again missing some understanding of what makes a martial art distinct and unique amongst the other systems.

When it comes to looking at each as being a "leaf of a tree", and all martial arts coming from the same "root", uh, no. It's more like each art is it's own unique tree, with a primary root system (the philosophy which dictates the rest of the tree), it's own main trunk (the core strategy or strategies of the system), a range of branches, few or many (different tactics, approaches, ranges, weaponry etc), and then the leaves, trees, and fruits (the individual techniques). And each "tree" can and does exist independantly of many of the other trees (which is the real distinction between the two metaphors). There really is no connection between French Savatte and Japanese Kenjutsu (say, Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu).



Indie12 said:


> I'd also add that not every system has a 'rhythm'. If your talking specific defense, not every system has one!


 
No, I'm not talking specific defences, I'm talking about the rhythms of the art itself. They are a great part what makes the art "work", or not. And each art will have it's own rhythm, or range of rhythms. If it doens't, then it is missing a huge aspect that makes it a martial art.

Recently (in a now-locked thread), there was a poster putting forth some training manuals of his, frankly, fraudulant teachers, with the reasoning that just because the training manuals included a hip throw (very badly done, with little understanding of the mechanics, how to do it properly or safely, how to use it, how to enter, and far more), and because that throw was used by other, legitimate martial arts as part of their rhythms and methods, that made his "art" genuine and valuable! Frankly, he got lost in the idea that a martial art is just a collection of techniques, when things such as rhythms dictate how to use those techniques, and thereby make it a martial art, hence my including that in the list of questions.



fenglong said:


> When I see such stuff I'm totally not surprised most people don't manage to develop their own styles even when they try...


 
Frankly, when I see stuff such as your postings, I'm totally not surprised when people think they can just "create" a martial art despite not having the first understanding of what that would entail. Would you care to prove me wrong and answer the, frankly, incredibly simple and elementary questions I posed? If not, the only conclusion I can come to is that you have no answers, which means that it is not in any way a martial art. It really is simple as that.


----------



## fenglong

Well sorry but you guys seem to have no clue about developing MA.

- Telling me "it is not as easy as you think!" over and over again while you have no idea what I think nor what my level and skills are.

- Making weird lists with points like "1: What is the power source your art uses?

2: What is the primary angle used?

3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?"

I think you confuse developing a MA with creating a super powered cartoon hero.

Please take a look at the things you plan to write before you actually do so, you are not doing anyone a favor with this fantasy stuff.

I will post a link once I got the first video done but I won't reply anymore since this topic has turned into some sort of hocus-pocus direction.


----------



## Aiki Lee

Fenglong, I don't see how what Chris is expecting is akin to "creating a super powered cartoon hero" or what "hocus-pocus" you are referring to.

Chris, now that fenglong has replied could you explain a bit what you mean by rythm? I was looking at koto ryu kata and still am not quite sure what I should be looking for exactly. Perhaps I am thinking in different terms than you are?


----------



## Flying Crane

fenglong said:


> Well sorry but you guys seem to have no clue about developing MA.
> 
> - Telling me "it is not as easy as you think!" over and over again while you have no idea what I think nor what my level and skills are.
> 
> - Making weird lists with points like "1: What is the power source your art uses?
> 
> 2: What is the primary angle used?
> 
> 3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?"
> 
> I think you confuse developing a MA with creating a super powered cartoon hero.
> 
> Please take a look at the things you plan to write before you actually do so, you are not doing anyone a favor with this fantasy stuff.
> 
> I will post a link once I got the first video done but I won't reply anymore since this topic has turned into some sort of hocus-pocus direction.


 
I'd say we've indulged your fantasy long enough.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. Okay, I'll be blunter.
> 
> The mother of invention is not desire, it's necessity. And the way you're approaching this is far from the way a martial art is created. By simply choosing something that you like (wind, storms), and trying to force that into a martial concept, you have completely missed the point of how such things actually work. You are trying to apply conscious mind approaches (which includes ideas of logic and common sense) to the idea of creating a martial art, where they have really little to no place at all. Your brain "constantly analyzing things" is the opposite of what would be required.
> 
> When it comes to your philosophy, "the storm" is not a philosophy. It's an abstract concept to which you are applying your values. As for your filter, the question would be how your filter is able to differentiate what is good or not. The other thing, of course, is that if this is your concept, how could anyone else even begin to add anything to your ideas?
> 
> I get that you like storms, but that's really not enough for creating a martial art. But to give you some ideas, here's a list of questions for you to answer. Honestly, if you can't then there is no martial art there.
> 
> 1: What is the power source your art uses?
> 
> 2: What is the primary angle used?
> 
> 3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?
> 
> 4: What is the environment your art is designed for?
> 
> 5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?
> 
> 6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?
> 
> 7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?
> 
> 8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?
> 
> That should be enough for now.


 

1: What is the power source your art uses? - Gun Powder and then I would have to say one or both of the follow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy
and
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_the_human_body_get_it's_energy


2: What is the primary angle used? 180 Down the sites? 

3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)? Sensitive, You sens the danger you sense the trigger and you sense the feedback or report of the firearm. 

4: What is the environment your art is designed for?
Current surroundings, yet must be aware of not hitting non targets

5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?
Two center mass? 

6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?
1-2, ... 1

7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?
Conceal, stable platforms

8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?
Survive

*********


Seriously, Chris I like your questions, and was going to create a separate thread just to ask the questions of what people think about their own arts, but I see your point of waiting and seeing what type of reply you get first. So please excuse my poor attempt and serious, but humor for my replies. 

Thanks


----------



## Rayban

fenglong said:


> Well sorry but you guys seem to have no clue about developing MA.



Everyone here is exactly who you want to talk to about this, frankly, warped fantasy of yours.



fenglong said:


> - Telling me "it is not as easy as you think!" over and over again while you have no idea what I think nor what my level and skills are.



Please elaborate on said skills?  I'm not entirely convinced you have the correct attitude for being in various arts for 15 years.



fenglong said:


> - Making weird lists with points like "1: What is the power source your art uses?
> 
> 2: What is the primary angle used?
> 
> 3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?"



How can you create something with out a list of requirements or steps to complete?  Even doodling in crayon requires this, though on a very subconscious level for any "average" person.



fenglong said:


> I think you confuse developing a MA with creating a super powered cartoon hero.



I think you are confusing reality and fantasy frankly.



fenglong said:


> Please take a look at the things you plan to write before you actually do so, you are not doing anyone a favor with this fantasy stuff.
> 
> I will post a link once I got the first video done but I won't reply anymore since this topic has turned into some sort of hocus-pocus direction.



Even though this has been said before many many times, I will sum up every response you have had so far.

A.)  You can't start from scratch.
B.)  MA are born out of a need.  One that you don't have.  *You have a Fantasy that you **want.*
C.)  You need a strategy for everything else to flow from.  Without a clearly defined strategy you have choreography, not MA.
D.)  Just because something sounds cool, doesn't mean it will make any practical sense using it as a pseudo-strategy at best.  (realistically the storm theme sounds more like a cartoon than anything else that has existed on this thread ever).
E.)  To understand MA you must train in a MA from (as Chris Parker says) the roots to the leaves.

This is by no means a complete list of requirements to form your own art, but I think giving you such a list is a waste of time and effort.  That and you can't have a rational conversation with an irrational person.


----------



## Bruno@MT

fenglong said:


> Well sorry but you guys seem to have no clue about developing MA.
> 
> - Telling me "it is not as easy as you think!" over and over again while you have no idea what I think nor what my level and skills are.
> 
> - Making weird lists with points like "1: What is the power source your art uses?
> 
> 2: What is the primary angle used?
> 
> 3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?"
> 
> I think you confuse developing a MA with creating a super powered cartoon hero.
> 
> Please take a look at the things you plan to write before you actually do so, you are not doing anyone a favor with this fantasy stuff.
> 
> I will post a link once I got the first video done but I won't reply anymore since this topic has turned into some sort of hocus-pocus direction.



Ironically, Chris is not the one going on about Fantasy stuff but asking very relevant questions.

A martial art is the physical expression of underlying concepts, right? It teaches to react in a given manner because that is tactically most sound for the context in which the art was created. And all the content of the art should follow from those same concepts.

So if we look at question number 1: power source. In some JMA, power is generated from the feet and legs pushing on the floor in a certain direction. in TKD otoh, much power is generated by rotation of the body. A roundhouse kick has a completely different power generation than a forward kick or punch.

point 2, the primary angle: in ninpo for example, it is common to move at a 45 degree angle relative to the line of attack, both in evasion and countering. In some forms of karate and jujutsu and possibly kickboxing, it is common to move straight ahead and back in a direct line.

point 3 classification: many MA are built around a core concept. For (most)TKD that is around kicking. For judo it is grappling, for most modern jujutsu or MMA it is unarmed combat, for classical systems it is armed and unarmed combat, etc. And for each case there are limitations and benefits as a result.

These points are fairly important is you want to create your own MA. And you haven't even thought of them. how can you create a martial art if you have not yet decided what type of body movement it is built around, or what angling is best suited, or whether you build it around armed use or not. Because each of these things will have an important impact in the techniques. For example, some things in judo do not makes sense if you anticipate weapons use. Much in sports TKD does not make sense from a self defense pov, etc.

If you don't think about these things, then how are you going to create an MA?


----------



## jks9199

fenglong said:


> Well sorry but you guys seem to have no clue about developing MA.
> 
> - Telling me "it is not as easy as you think!" over and over again while you have no idea what I think nor what my level and skills are.
> 
> - Making weird lists with points like "1: What is the power source your art uses?
> 
> 2: What is the primary angle used?
> 
> 3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?"
> 
> I think you confuse developing a MA with creating a super powered cartoon hero.
> 
> Please take a look at the things you plan to write before you actually do so, you are not doing anyone a favor with this fantasy stuff.
> 
> I will post a link once I got the first video done but I won't reply anymore since this topic has turned into some sort of hocus-pocus direction.


They're pretty legitimate questions.

How is your art going to generate power?  Will it be using the whole body, using rotational energy, linear striking, or what?

Will you work from inside or outside positions?  What will your primary weapons be?  Strikes with hands or feet?  Grappling or locking?  Or some of each?


----------



## Chris Parker

Okay, others have covered most of this well, but I'm grumpy, so I'll answer this myself as well.



fenglong said:


> Well sorry but you guys seem to have no clue about developing MA.


 
Son, you may have that backwards there. So far you have shown a lot of fantasy dreaming with no understanding whatsoever of what a martial art is, how it is developed, why it is developed, what makes it up, and far more. 



fenglong said:


> - Telling me "it is not as easy as you think!" over and over again while you have no idea what I think nor what my level and skills are.


 
There are no comments about your skills, it's your understanding and knowledge that is being questioned. And frankly, that is coming across in everything you're posting here.



fenglong said:


> - Making weird lists with points like "1: What is the power source your art uses?


 
Okay, this is what I meant when I said you are revealing your knowledge and understanding with every post here. This is a brilliant case in point. If you can't see what the power source is for a martial art, then you have absolutely no business calling yourself a martial artist, let alone claiming to have created one.



fenglong said:


> 2: What is the primary angle used?


 
See above.



fenglong said:


> 3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?"


 
And ditto. These are very basic questions, and a mid-kyu grade student in any art should be able to answer them (ask them if they're training in a weapon system, a grappling one, or a striking art, and they will be able to tell you. If not, there are some very serious questions that need answering about the training...)



fenglong said:


> I think you confuse developing a MA with creating a super powered cartoon hero.


 
I think you're having some issues with reality here, frankly....



fenglong said:


> Please take a look at the things you plan to write before you actually do so, you are not doing anyone a favor with this fantasy stuff.



Once again, you might be aiming that barb in the wrong direction there....



fenglong said:


> I will post a link once I got the first video done but I won't reply anymore since this topic has turned into some sort of hocus-pocus direction.


 
That would not be our doing, son.



Rich Parsons said:


> 1: What is the power source your art uses? - Gun Powder and then I would have to say one or both of the follow:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy
> and
> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_the_human_body_get_it's_energy
> 
> 
> 2: What is the primary angle used? 180 Down the sites?
> 
> 3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)? Sensitive, You sens the danger you sense the trigger and you sense the feedback or report of the firearm.
> 
> 4: What is the environment your art is designed for?
> Current surroundings, yet must be aware of not hitting non targets
> 
> 5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?
> Two center mass?
> 
> 6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?
> 1-2, ... 1
> 
> 7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?
> Conceal, stable platforms
> 
> 8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?
> Survive
> 
> *********
> 
> 
> Seriously, Chris I like your questions, and was going to create a separate thread just to ask the questions of what people think about their own arts, but I see your point of waiting and seeing what type of reply you get first. So please excuse my poor attempt and serious, but humor for my replies.
> 
> Thanks


 
Ha, nice answers! 

Personally, I don't think we'll get much sense out of Fenglong, so feel free to start the thread!



Himura Kenshin said:


> Chris, now that fenglong has replied could you explain a bit what you mean by rythm? I was looking at koto ryu kata and still am not quite sure what I should be looking for exactly. Perhaps I am thinking in different terms than you are?


 
Rhythms within martial arts can relate to a number of things; the intervals used between strikes (Koto Ryu's habit of striking between the steps of an opponent, Gyokko's Ken Kudaki strikes to interrupt the opponents attacking rhythm, and so on), or established rhythms of movements (Koto Ryu has the same rhythm for almost all it's strike defences of "block - kick, hand strike", and for it's grab defences it's "block - hand strike, kick". Others include striking high then low, or the reverse of that). Another version of a rhythm is the collection of movements in the arts' techniques (for example, some arts will teach a rhythm of multiple responces to single attacks, others will teach only one or two "answers" to an attack), and then you have attacking rhythms as well. I left it open to see what way Fenglong would take it, unfortunately we seem to have gotten the answer....


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Gee this thread turned out to be a big surprise:rofl:


----------



## Aiki Lee

Thanks for that clairification Chris. It was sort of what I was thinking about, but not to that degree. I see now what you meant.


----------



## fenglong

Flying Crane said:


> I'd say we've indulged your fantasy long enough.



Yes I admit, there is "fantasy" within all this.
Imagination is crucial for working with arts, even with martial arts, and who says a person who got a crazy imagination can't be down to earth enough to create something rather realistic..?

The lists here help nobody. They may be of use if someone plans to be going to creat a simple martial art style, but that's about it. Such lists only limit your imagination and your creative freedom, they don't even provide a solid base for the creation process but only a solid base for categorizing.
When you face a fight on the streets, they don't give a bleep about any of your points on this list, all that counts is whether it works.

When you train a punch for some months and feel you should change it to get more force into it, to be able to execute it faster, with less prep time, then thats what you should do. Based on your own criteria, expectation and experience.
That is how a MA is created, not by a checklist.

Cheers for your concerns but I am already past the "is that gonna work?"-process with my MA and this default rating and judging you keep doing won't help you understand my MA, nor will it help me in any way.


----------



## Rayban

fenglong said:


> Yes I admit, there is "fantasy" within all this.
> Imagination is crucial for working with arts, even with martial arts, and who says a person who got a crazy imagination can't be down to earth enough to create something rather realistic..?



You can't create anything remotely realistic without a logical thought process.  Forgive me but yours seems to be tangent upon tangent.



fenglong said:


> The lists here help nobody. They may be of use if someone plans to be going to create a simple martial art style, but that's about it.



Explain to me please what you would term a "simple" MA.  If you think any MA is simple then you do not understand it.



fenglong said:


> Such lists only limit your imagination and your creative freedom, they don't even provide a solid base for the creation process but only a solid base for categorizing.



Read this again then double check your thought process.  Are you under the impression that MA are uncategorised mashes of abstract concepts?  If so you are sorely mistaken.



fenglong said:


> When you face a fight on the streets, they don't give a bleep about any of your points on this list, all that counts is whether it works.



Ok. Here we go.  When is a MA used on the streets (successfully)? Again and again it has been posted here and elsewhere that there is a massive difference between a Martial Art and Self Defence.  

If you are interested in something that works on today's streets you are interested in self defence. It is gross motor, adrenalin responding defences which have little to do with a theme (your storm idea for one) and more with developing muscle memory.



fenglong said:


> When you train a punch for some months and feel you should change it to get more force into it, to be able to execute it faster, with less prep time, then that's what you should do. Based on your own criteria, expectation and experience.
> That is how a MA is created, not by a checklist.



See above.  You are describing SD.  Not MA.



fenglong said:


> Cheers for your concerns but I am already past the "is that gonna work?"-process with my MA and this default rating and judging you keep doing won't help you understand my MA, nor will it help me in any way.



It is pointless continuing to argue with you.  You are walled into your fantasy and will not take the advice of people who have been training longer and deeper.  I will levy one piece of advice.

Slow down and organise your thought process.  As I said, you are going from one tangent to another in a bid to justify your fantasy under the guise of asking for (unwanted) advice.  Re-evaluate and try again.


----------



## fenglong

You seem really frustrated, seems I touched a weak point.

MAs are created on ideas/needs/inspirations as earlier mentioned, the categorizing happens afterwards. If someone has the wish to specifically create a new style of a certain category, that's another story.
As for my case, I had passions and ideas for a long while before slowly I noticed how well my concepts work, which is why nothing can change my.

There may be certain MAs and MA styles that were created under different criteria such as entertainment or competition under a certain set of rules, but after all they are all more or less based on the same thing, combat.
Now theoreticly every MA can be used as self-defense. But certain MAs are way better for that purpose than others, for several reasons.


If you think martial arts and self-defense are 2 completely different things, I think you don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## Rayban

Why not, I'm bored.



fenglong said:


> You seem really frustrated, seems I touched a weak point.



Actually I'm laughing quite hard at your thought process.



fenglong said:


> MAs are created on ideas/needs/inspirations as earlier mentioned, the categorizing happens afterwards.



But wait?!


fenglong said:


> ...- Making weird lists with points like "1: What is the power source your art uses?...





fenglong said:


> Such lists only limit your imagination and your creative freedom, they  don't even provide a solid base for the creation process but only a  solid base for categorizing...



How does catergorising come later when weird lists limit your imagination?  Nice contradiction... Again Tangent to tangent.



fenglong said:


> If someone has the wish to specifically create a new style of a certain category, that's another story.



Then you need to answer the listed questions from Chris Parker.  If you cannot, you have not got an art.  You have coreography.  At best a style of self defence (depending on your actal skill).



fenglong said:


> As for my case, I had passions and ideas for a long while before slowly I noticed how well my concepts work, which is why nothing can change my.



work in what sense? as a MA? on the street against a thug with a knife? 



fenglong said:


> There may be certain MAs and MA styles that were created under different criteria such as entertainment or competition under a certain set of rules, but after all they are all more or less based on the same thing, combat.



I may be wrong here (someone will correct me if so), but technically the Japanese Tea ceremony can be considared a MA.  That is not combat based.

The point is, you have been asked where your art lies.  Is it Grapling combat, Striking combat, Kicking combat, Ground fighting, is there weapons involved? ...etc




fenglong said:


> Now theoreticly every MA can be used as self-defense. But certain MAs are way better for that purpose than others, for several reasons.



Yes and no.  You can use them for SD.  Whether it works or not is a different story.




fenglong said:


> If you think martial arts and self-defense are 2 completely different things, I think you don't know what you are talking about.



As Chris Parker says, you might be aiming that barb in the wrong direction there....


----------



## Chris Parker

Fenglong. Son, you have no idea whatsoever about martial arts. Every post here confirms that. 

A martial art needs a single definable power source. To try to put a range of power sources into a single art results in nothing viable at all. Same for all the rest. Really, if you can't see this you have no chance of coming up with anything viable whatsoever.

Answer the questions or accept that you have no credibity at all. I'm a little tired of playing nice.


----------



## fenglong

Sorry but I think getting you to understand simple things would already consume more of my time than I'm willing to give.
You are not making much sense.
I guess your MA is about running into people with your forehead or something....


----------



## Chris Parker

Son, you're really talking to the wrong person about such things here. Trust me when I say that my understanding of complex and simple things, most above and beyond all martial arts, somewhat dwarfs yours based on the way you're presenting yourself here. You're not doing yourself any favours by arguing this way.


----------



## fenglong

Chris Parker said:


> Fenglong. Son, you have no idea whatsoever about martial arts. Every post here confirms that.
> 
> A martial art needs a single definable power source. To try to put a range of power sources into a single art results in nothing viable at all. Same for all the rest. Really, if you can't see this you have no chance of coming up with anything viable whatsoever.
> 
> Answer the questions or accept that you have no credibity at all. I'm a little tired of playing nice.



So I have the choice between answering your questions and accepting to have no clue?
Good one....

I don't know why you say there must be 1 single power source my MA relies on.
I have no idea what definition of power source you are talking about, whether it is the kinetic power concept, the bio-chemic and bio-electric process inside the body, or some weird stuff you made up.
With your attitude it is hard for me to even pay attention to you, sorry.

But to still answer you that question, if possible...
My wind concept aims for a minimized tonicity and maximized blood flow/oxygen supply.
My lightning concept aims for maximizing muscle pulse and leverage efficiency.
I use grounding and certain balance and contraction concepts for weight transfer and maximized kinetic efficiency.

It is a conplex system with all sorts of techniques, from biological and mental training to leverage, weight transfer and perception concepts.


----------



## Chris Parker

Oh dear lord....

If you claim to have any understanding of martial arts and don't what a power source refers to, then you have no understanding of martial arts. It's really that simple. And your concept of "energising blood" etc is really nothing to do with anything.

I'll see how simple I can make this for you.

What method (physical) does your art utilise to generate power for it's strikes, throws, grapples, weapon use, or whatever it is your system does? How to you transfer power into the opponent? Do you get this yet? This really is about as simple as a martial art gets, you know.....


----------



## fenglong

Chris Parker said:


> Son, you're really talking to the wrong person about such things here. Trust me when I say that my understanding of complex and simple things, most above and beyond all martial arts, somewhat dwarfs yours based on the way you're presenting yourself here. You're not doing yourself any favours by arguing this way.



That was actually directed to Rayban but thanks for another demonstration of your insane modesty.


----------



## Chris Parker

That is me being modest. Oh, and Rayban has far greater understanding of all of these things as well, so you know. Again, trust me on this.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty and the pig likes it.


----------



## Rayban

fenglong said:


> I have no idea what definition of power source you are talking about, whether it is the kinetic power concept, the bio-chemic and bio-electric process inside the body, or some weird stuff you made up.



This has been explained a number of times. Re-evaluate and go back over the thread.



fenglong said:


> My wind concept aims for a minimized tonicity and maximized blood flow/oxygen supply.



This is not a power source. Neither is



fenglong said:


> My lightning concept aims for maximizing muscle pulse and leverage efficiency.



Does the are utilise a rotating force, forward and back...etc You can't have a seperate power source for different limbs.  Your body must work in unison.  Do you understand this or do you use a "cloudy concept" for absorbing inforamtion seperate to your lightning and wind concepts?



fenglong said:


> I use grounding and certain balance and contraction concepts for weight transfer and maximized kinetic efficiency.



All arts do.  This is a requirement



fenglong said:


> It is a conplex system with all sorts of techniques, from biological and mental training to leverage, weight transfer and perception concepts.



What is a biological technique? There is definately no form of mental training that you have put forth through your responses.

Again... Tangent to tangent. look it up and understand this concept. Admitting you have a problem is the first step towards solving it.


----------



## fenglong

I did have a problem, listening to trolls like you whose attack lights flash when they see someone who seems to be more successful in any way.
But since I fixed this problem I am progressing really well.

To everyone reading this, don't listen to such trolls when it is about your personal dreams, they aren't with it.


----------



## Chris Parker

Okay, I'm a little tired of this.

Fenglong, you came here with a claim of a new martial art that you are developing. Since then you have consistently avoided answering basic questions about it, shown absolutely no understanding, insight, or knowledge of martial arts at all, started another thread with a whole bunch of disparate videos with no rhyme or reason, ignored all requests for reasons for the videos to be viewed, and now are calling others trolls?

Son, grow up.

EDIT: Oh, and out of interest, just how are you showing any form of success whatsoever?


----------



## MJS

Folks,

Before this thread gets any further out of hand, let me address a few things.

1) The discussion of 'creating your own art' have been discussed endlessly on here.  9 times out of 10, people aren't creating anything new, just repackaging stuff from other arts.  Why anyone would want to craft their 'own' art when there are many others already in existance, is beyond me.

2) Please take a few minutes to read thru the forum rules that *everyone *agreed to upon joining, specifically the part on trolling.

3) If people are here to have a serious discussion, fine.  If people are here to stir the pot and do nothing but troll, you'll find your time here will be cut very short.

4) If you're having an issue with a member, their post, etc., dont fire back at the person, use the RTM feature, which is the red triangle in the upper right hand corner of each post.  It'll generate a report for the forum mods to look at and deal with, if any action is deemed necessary.

That being said, lets keep the thread civil please.

MJS 
MT Asst. Admin


----------



## Aiki Lee

Chris,

For the purposes of illustration could you answer your own questions? Perhaps it is just the wording that makes things difficult. For example, I was not entirely sure what you meant by rythm earlier until you clairified it and when you talk about a power source, I'm thinking of the "tanden" and moving from the hips which may not be what you are talking about.

To be honest, this is more for my sake than for Fenglong's at this point.


----------



## Chris Parker

Sure, not sure that anything much else good is going to come of this thread....

I'm going to look at this from my arts perspective, as well as giving a few other examples from other arts to show the differences that can (and do) exist. Obviously the important thing is that each art is congruent and true to itself across board.



> 1: What is the primary power source your art uses?


 
Within Ninjutsu the power source utilised is natural body weight in fluid motion. 

By contrast, karate tends towards generating power by snapping the hips in order to transfer power; a number of Kung Fu (CMA) systems generate power through tension in the tendons; boxing (and JKD, for that matter) use kinetic chaining; Aikido is redirection of incoming energy/momentum by utilising circular movement; Judo focuses of hip movement and displacing the opponents balance; BJJ works with a combination of leverage and positioning..... the list can go on and on, really.



> 2: What is the primary angle used?


 
Within Ninjutsu we utilise an asterix-style approach to angling (forwards, backwards, left and right, forward and to the left, forward and to the right, back and to the left, back and to the right), as well as (to a lesser degree) up and down. 

Karate tends towards straight line (linear) angles, primarily forwards and backwards, with some sideways movement as well; boxing is also very linear; Aikido is circular, moving around the opponents incoming force; Wing Chun has little evasive angling, as it deals more with intercepting incoming attacks, and has a primary angle of forwards; military movement tends towards forward, and outflanking forwards, with some retreating to a lesser degree, and so on.



> 3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?


 
Well, Ninjutsu is very much as generalist system, in that it deals with striking, kicking, grappling (stand-up), ground work, weapons, weapon defence, groups, and far more. That said, certain individual systems within the Ninjutsu schools are more one than another.

Good examples of grappling systems include BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, a number of traditional Jujutsu systems, and so on. Striking arts range from boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, TKD, Karate, and so on.

Generalist systems are modern RBSD systems, MMA, Shootfighting, JKD, and so on.

An important thing to note here is that just because a system is a specialist system (say, striking with TKD), that doesn't mean that's all it has, just that that specialisation makes up the dominant majority of the system.



> 4: What is the environment your art is designed for?


 
For Ninjutsu, the majority of the old systems are designed for old-style Japanese attacks (stepping punches, grappling/throwing attacks, traditional Japanese weaponry etc), although modern interpretations are not uncommon. With my schools, the two (environments) are definitively seperate.

MMA's environment is a competitive ring (honestly rather grappler-friendly), boxing is similar, but with a firmer surface allowing faster striking and movement, Judo's environment is a Judo competition, RBSD deals with common "street" attacks and the realities of adrenaline and the law, traditional Japanese weapon systems deal with either battlefield usage (Katori Shinto Ryu, Toda-ha Buko Ryu etc), or more of a dueling situation (Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, Shinto Muso Ryu etc), or possibly arresting or policing methods (Hojojutsu, Juttejutsu etc). Chinese systems can be classed as "Northern" or "Southern" systems, where the terrain in which they developed lend themselves to very different body mechanics (the Northern systems, being a flatter environment, tend towards more "upright", narrow stances, whereas the Southern systems, being a rockier, more mountainous area, have a greater tendancy to deeper, lower stances for stability).



> 5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?


 
Oh, we have lots! Sword, short sword, knife, two sword, staff, short staff, half staff, naginata, spear, bisento, jutte, kusari fundo, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, hojo, chigiriki, shuriken, fukiya, shikomi zue, shuko, and more. Modern interpretations include firearms and defence as well, including defence against modern weapons such as machettes, baseball bats, chains, and so on.

It's really going to be far too long to try to go through all the other possibile weapon usages and systems that use them, but for some brevity, there is none in most competition based systems (Judo, boxing, MMA, etc), or specific weapons only (Kendo, Atarashii Naginatado, La Canne), some systems are weapons based (Katori Shinto Ryu, Toda-ha Buko Ryu, Escrima, Jodo etc), some are unarmed  based with some weapons (Wing Chun - Butterfly swords and staff, some Karate systems - nunchaku, kama, tonfa, staff, sai, and so on).



> 6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?


 
Ah, the confusing one. For Ninjutsu, when you look at the scrolls, each system have their own rhythm, but to generalise, Ninjutsu-related traditions tend towards rhythms of 2 or 3 (two as an attacking rhythm [one as a set-up, the second as a knockdown/out], or three as a defensive rhythm [one as a block, two as a disrupting action, and a third to finish]). That is then combined with alternating angles/heights (hitting left, then right, or high then low, or reversed).

Arts such as boxing work on a variety of rhythms, typically trained as combination, and can range from two or three punches, to as many as 8 or more in a row. Karate systems can have a rhythm of one (one punch, one kill to oversimplify things....), with the idea that each action you take is completely self-dependant, and is designed to be as devestating as possible. Aikido works on rhythms of three or more, with the first action taking control of the opponents energy, the second redirecting it, and the third the application of the movement.



> 7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?


 
For us, the most fundamental posture is a defensive posture (Ichimonji, Seigan, Doko etc depending upon system). It features your weight being centred back, rather than forward, has one hand extended as a barrier/defence, and the rear hand guarding while being ready to strike/launch an attack. The primary strategy for our arts is escape and survival, so the posture reflects that.

In boxing, the main posture is forward, with the hands held high guarding the head, and the body held upright. The feet both point forwards and are close together for speed of movement. As the primary strategy for boxing is based around generating success in boxing matches, the posture is guarded, but aggressive, focused on forwards movement, and the hands held to protect the head, as that is the primary target in boxing.



> 8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?


 
Okay, first off, a clarification of what a strategy is, and what a tactic is.

A strategy is an overall plan of action. Examples might be "win a competition", or "get home safe". A tactic is a particular set of methods used to achieve that strategy, such as "push forward aggressively" to win a competition, or "evasive angles" for get home safe. The next thing is "technique", which, in the above examples, would be the specific footwork.

For us, the primary strategy changes depending on the environment. For the traditional, the strategy is to defeat the enemy (for the most part, Togakure Ryu is a bit different, for example). The tactics used for that strategy include evasive angling, damaging counter strikes, and devestating throws (designed to injure, and not allow the opponent/enemy to fall safely), as well as the use of weaponry. Our street strategy is simply, as listed above, "get home safe". The primary tactics are designed to minimalise the risk of injury to yourself, as well as to escape (or eject yourself from the situation) as quickly as possible. They include awareness to avoid confrontation before it happens, verbal de-escalation to stop a confrontation becoming physical, pre-emptive striking to avoid the risk of the attacker injuring you, and from there we get into close-quarter brawling, ground work, and so on.

Hope that helps a bit!


----------



## fenglong

Let's see if someone can actually get the value behind this.

"Flow like the wind and let the lightning strike."


----------



## Steve

fenglong said:


> Let's see if someone can actually get the value behind this.
> 
> "Flow like the wind and let the lightning strike."



Not me.  What's it mean?


----------



## elder999

fenglong said:


> Let's see if someone can actually get the value behind this.
> 
> "Flow like the wind and let the lightning strike."


 

_Let the yawn rise, and leap like a turtle._


----------



## Flying Crane

break like the wind...


----------



## Xue Sheng

If the wind will not serve, take to the oars


----------



## Xue Sheng

fenglong said:


> Let's see if someone can actually get the value behind this.
> 
> "Flow like the wind and let the lightning strike."


 
You do realize that lightning does not come from just wind right


----------



## Aiki Lee

fenglong said:


> Let's see if someone can actually get the value behind this.
> 
> "Flow like the wind and let the lightning strike."


 
I think you might be heading in the right direction, but this still sounds kind of vague and philosophical. Can you explain how you do this, physically?

thank you Chris for your explanations. If you combined what you have said about both ninjutsu and aikido, that's pretty much what we do. I feel I may have gotten this thread off subject but I'd like to answer the questions posted by Chris in regards to aikininjutsu as a further example.


1. Primary power source

We practice taijutsu and so like traditional ninjutsu practitioners, we use the whole body weight in fluid motion with special emphasis on moving from the hips as opposed to the legs or shoulders (unless such movement is key to a particular tactic)

2. Primary angle

We use much of the same angling that Chris mention from traditional ninjutsu, afterall quite a lot of our material comes from those traditions, but we use a lot of circular movements as well. In fact we combine the approaches and often start off in the angular ninjutsu movements and switch to a circular one to finish the technique or vice visera

1: What is the primary power source your art uses? 
3. How is your art classified (striking, grappling, ect)?

Generalist. There is equal emphasis on striking and throwing, as we believe you should always strike to set up your throw or takedown. We have traditional Japanese weapons as well as modern weapons.
3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)? 

4. What is the environment of the art designed for?

Modern reality based personal protection for private citizens and law enforcement. Skills are aquired from traditional Japanese martial arts as well as some modern military and police training. All training is oriented towards modern self defense as.
4: What is the environment your art is designed for? 

5. What weapons are used if any?

Traditional Japanese weapons and modern firearms and knives. Improvised weapons based on simularities to traditional weapons (ex. using a pool cue as a rokushakubo, or pen as a kubotan) are practiced.
5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any? 

6. What are the primary rythms?

Here's my best attempt at this. Aside from what is traditionally taught as described by Chris, the main breakdown of what we do can be summed up as move, hit, turn. It sounds like maybe its a 3 step thing but its really more of 2 steps. 

You either:
1: Move, hit and turn
or
2: Move and hit, and turn
6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art? 
I hope that makes the slightest bit of sense to anyone.

7. What are the main postures of your art?

Mostly our version of bobi no kame which looks almost like the pik-a-boo style of boxing, however this is very basic and an a forward energy oriented posture with both feet pointing forward on and being on the balls of you feet are important. Hand position varies depending on what we want to bait the opponent with.

We tend also to use a lot of modified ichimonji no kame with a more even weight distribution on the feet and do a lot of work from other popular postures ninjutsu.
7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art? 

8. What kind of tactic and strategy are used?

8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy? 
Here is a list of some of our tactics and where we learn them from as well as some of our skill sets we call the "secrets".

aiki kihon happo

1. ikyo-enter
2. nikyo-set up
3. sankyo-go around the problem
4. yonkyo-be indifferent to pain
5. gokyo-strike in every technique
6. rokyo- lead the opponent (basically keep them infront of you)
7. nankyo-be skin tight
8. Hachikyo-become the center of the technique

ninpo kihon happo

1. Ichimonji no kata-remain neutral in movement, strike to direction of balance
2. Jumonji no kata- twist you hips
3. hicho no kata- expand and contract, maintain physical contact
4. omote gyaku dori- take what is given
5. omote gyaku tsuki- the opponent does not stop attacking
6. ura gyaku- build in a defense
7. musha dori- use your legs
8. ganseki nage- fit in (tsukuri)

our first four "secrets" are

1. strike and throw to direction of unbalance
2. draw in the attack by manipulating instinct to track
3. isshin, mushin, zanshin
4. line up off center of opponent 

I could go on and on and on, but i will spare you more of my ramblings.


----------



## shesulsa

Fenglong, I've gone back and read this thread really thoroughly and nothing really jumps out at me as to why it would be worthwhile for you to start your own style other than an ownership thing.

One thing you typed that I think is *very* poignant is where you said something like you have the right to keep your creations within your own style.

I'd like to point out that while it's great you've spent over a decade of your life training and learning and contemplating that you haven't really put anything new out there for consideration yet.  I tend to agree with others - fighting arts have been around for SO VERY LONG and there is extensive theory behind some of the older arts and available to those who are interested in science and theory behind movement, counter-movement, fight philosophy, etcetera.

Would you be willing to post a sample video of your style creation?  It might be better to serve as an example than what we've read so far.

Thank you.


----------



## fenglong

fenglong said:


> Let's see if someone can actually get the value behind this.
> 
> "Flow like the wind and let the lightning strike."




This is related to one of the core concepts of my MA.
It is similar to the water concept in Taijiquan or which Bruce Lee mentioned.

Basically it works by an extremely low tonicity level combined with maximized constant balance which allows for optimal reactions under any circumstance.

While the wind part focuses on smooth, relaxed body and mind conditions under any circumstance, no matter how exhausing, rough or painful, the lightning part focuses on maximized speed and strength equally.
The philosophy is "you can't beat what you can't see".

The idea behind the lightning method is basically to generate as much acceleration as possible in a time frame as small as possible.

Whereas the regular training would change my speed from extremely fast at the beginning, to average speed a few weeks/months later in trade for higher strength, my lightning methods constantly increase speed and strength.
I may share some details about my lightning concept once I figured out what could be the reasons why it works.


----------



## fenglong

Himura Kenshin said:


> I think you might be heading in the right direction, but this still sounds kind of vague and philosophical. Can you explain how you do this, physically?
> 
> ...



So far my intuition about the things in my MA has proven to be right in 90% of times which is why I have gained such a high confidence in my MA, but after all I do not keep things that do not actually work out.
Of course it is always tricky how long you spend on practicing something that has not yet proven to be worth keeping, it takes a lot of confidence.
The first few years I struggled a lot, full of doubts and self-criticism, I basically felt like one of those ghost hunters seeing ghosts on every photo. ^^

Fortunately, my MA has a similar philosophy like the one of Kyokushin. Walking your way means enduring and persisting.


----------



## elder999

fenglong said:


> Basically it works by an extremely low *tonicity* level combined with maximized constant balance which allows for optimal reactions under any circumstance.


 
Tonicity is a measure of the osmotic pressure (as defined by the water potential of the two solutions) of two solutions separated by a semipermeable membrane.

_I now invoke the *pancake bunny*_*.*



fenglong said:


> .
> I may share some details about my lightning concept once I figured out what could be the reasons why it works.


 
Uhhrr.....I know one possible reason "why it works.."

'cause you've only used it against 11th grade LARPERS like yourself. :lfao:


----------



## fenglong

Sorry for the confusion. I should have mentioned my MA is not an ameba style.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/tonicity


----------



## elder999

fenglong said:


> Sorry for the confusion. I should have mentioned my MA is not an ameba style.
> 
> http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/tonicity


 
So you're saying that your muscles have less than normal firmness or functional readiness?

Or is it a lack of partial contraction when relaxed?

I invoke the Captain Crunch.:lfao:


----------



## fenglong

elder999 said:


> Uhhrr.....I know one possible reason "why it works.."
> 
> 'cause you've only used it against 11th grade LARPERS like yourself. :lfao:




Against my former training partners for instance.
Here is one of them: http://www.meister-dema.de.tl/Meister-Dema.htm


----------



## clfsean

Video... provide video.

Static websites of "former training partners" in static postures prove nothing to support your claims.

:BSmeter:


----------



## fenglong

clfsean said:


> Video... provide video.
> 
> Static websites of "former training partners" in static postures prove nothing to support your claims.
> 
> :BSmeter:




Yeam I'm sorry. Everyone waiting for a video will have to show a little more patience.
Apologies.


----------



## shesulsa

Well, then ... given your limp postulation here and lack of video paired with the accusatory private message conversation with you, I refuse to engage in this exchange with you further until you provide some video.

Either one of two things is going on here:

1.  You are honestly wanting to create your own martial art and are innocently devoted to the idea, though you clearly have no idea what you're doing, 

or

2.  You are a troll and totally not worth the effort put forth here.

I know where my money lies, but in giving you the benefit of the doubt ... I await video.

Adios!


----------



## Indie12

shesulsa said:


> Well, then ... given your limp postulation here and lack of video paired with the accusatory private message conversation with you, I refuse to engage in this exchange with you further until you provide some video.
> 
> Either one of two things is going on here:
> 
> 1. You are honestly wanting to create your own martial art and are innocently devoted to the idea, though you clearly have no idea what you're doing,
> 
> or
> 
> 2. You are a troll and totally not worth the effort put forth here.
> 
> I know where my money lies, but in giving you the benefit of the doubt ... I await video.
> 
> Adios!


 
I'll go out a limb based from what I've heard talking with him and say #1. He's honestly wanting to create his own system, but has no idea what he is doing. Though I too will give him the benefit of the doubt... What video btw?

I personally would want to see him demonstrate portions of his system up close and personal, besides taping a video which could be tampered with, misrepresented, or falseified... That way questioning someone face to face works better then online...

In response to the Administrators statement concerning 'Creating new Martial Art systems' if you take a look back at many of the Martial Arts systems from 1960-present, they all had influence from other Arts, which would make them "non-original" Arts.


----------



## Indie12

MJS said:


> Folks,
> 
> Before this thread gets any further out of hand, let me address a few things.
> 
> 1) The discussion of 'creating your own art' have been discussed endlessly on here. 9 times out of 10, people aren't creating anything new, just repackaging stuff from other arts. Why anyone would want to craft their 'own' art when there are many others already in existance, is beyond me.
> 
> *12: Debateable...*
> 
> 2) Please take a few minutes to read thru the forum rules that *everyone *agreed to upon joining, specifically the part on trolling.
> 
> *12: I've noticed that alot in many forums... Why isn't more action taken?*
> 
> 3) If people are here to have a serious discussion, fine. If people are here to stir the pot and do nothing but troll, you'll find your time here will be cut very short.
> 
> *12: Typical of many, many forums...*
> 
> 4) If you're having an issue with a member, their post, etc., dont fire back at the person, use the RTM feature, which is the red triangle in the upper right hand corner of each post. It'll generate a report for the forum mods to look at and deal with, if any action is deemed necessary.
> 
> *12: Well would you be so kind as to describe what requirements are needed for action to be deemed necessary?*
> *It's not quite clear on what merits a "deemed necessary" action/response.*
> 
> That being said, lets keep the thread civil please.
> 
> MJS
> MT Asst. Admin


 
Thanks!


----------



## zDom

Once you have finished establishing this New Martial Art, what will you do when you get a hotheaded student who doesn't want to listen to you instruct him in Wind and Lightning techniques because he has figured out a better way?

What if he is really, really introspective and has been to China FIVE times?


----------



## Indie12

zDom said:


> Once you have finished establishing this New Martial Art, what will you do when you get a hotheaded student who doesn't want to listen to you instruct him in Wind and Lightning techniques because he has figured out a better way?
> 
> What if he is really, really introspective and has been to China FIVE times?


 
Hehe, slap him in the face with your belt/sash, then make him do finger tip push ups in the snow 1000x!


----------



## shesulsa

zDom said:


> Once you have finished establishing this New Martial Art, what will you do when you get a hotheaded student who doesn't want to listen to you instruct him in Wind and Lightning techniques because he has figured out a better way?
> 
> What if he is really, really introspective and has been to China FIVE times?



But the thing is he *hasn't* figured out a better way.  He has noticed that his relaxed muscle tone and focused power works well.  This is *far* from new and he doesn't even know *why* it works.

He. Has. Found. His. Individual. Fighting. Approach.  

And he wants to make a system out of it.


----------



## Indie12

shesulsa said:


> But the thing is he *hasn't* figured out a better way. He has noticed that his relaxed muscle tone and focused power works well. This is *far* from new and he doesn't even know *why* it works.
> 
> He. Has. Found. His. Individual. Fighting. Approach.
> 
> And he wants to make a system out of it.


 
Well we don't know if he 'has' or 'hasn't', he just 'hasn't' proven it to us yet! And if you look at 99.99% of all hybrid systems nowdays, that's exactly what they are! 
[ Individual-Fighting-Approach]

The *Why* it works, *How* it works *When* it works *What* works are several questions needing answered! Maybe it's hard to explain via a debate forum?


----------



## shesulsa

Indie12 said:


> Well we don't know if he 'has' or 'hasn't', he just 'hasn't' proven it to us yet! And if you look at 99.99% of all hybrid systems nowdays, that's exactly what they are!
> [ Individual-Fighting-Approach]
> 
> The *Why* it works, *How* it works *When* it works *What* works are several questions needing answered! Maybe it's hard to explain via a debate forum?



Which is nice - but I daresay most folks nowadays are more interested in starting their own style instead of delving deeper into that which already exists.  There are often many many answers in history and background ... to go on ignoring them is sad and killing some good arts, methinks.

My money is on #2 of my previous post - first he's developing his own style - then there's not much different to the arts - then he's going to live in a cave in China. I feel like John Stossel here.


----------



## Indie12

shesulsa said:


> Which is nice - but I daresay most folks nowadays are more interested in starting their own style instead of delving deeper into that which already exists. There are often many many answers in history and background ... to go on ignoring them is sad and killing some good arts, methinks.
> 
> My money is on #2 of my previous post - first he's developing his own style - then there's not much different to the arts - then he's going to live in a cave in China. I feel like John Stossel here.


 
True, but some of those folks have legitimate reasons for doing so and with intelliectual abilities. If you want my personal opinion, I don't think it's Arts killing Arts rather then people killing Arts through misrepresentation!

I'll stick with #1. Then he's traveling around the world in a boeing 747 by himself with millions in his pockets!


----------



## MJS

Indie12 said:


> Thanks!


 
_



			Folks,

Before this thread gets any further out of hand, let me address a few things.

1) The discussion of 'creating your own art' have been discussed endlessly on here. 9 times out of 10, people aren't creating anything new, just repackaging stuff from other arts. Why anyone would want to craft their 'own' art when there are many others already in existance, is beyond me.

*12: Debateable...*

2) Please take a few minutes to read thru the forum rules that *everyone *agreed to upon joining, specifically the part on trolling.

*12: I've noticed that alot in many forums... Why isn't more action taken?*

3) If people are here to have a serious discussion, fine. If people are here to stir the pot and do nothing but troll, you'll find your time here will be cut very short.

*12: Typical of many, many forums...*

4) If you're having an issue with a member, their post, etc., dont fire back at the person, use the RTM feature, which is the red triangle in the upper right hand corner of each post. It'll generate a report for the forum mods to look at and deal with, if any action is deemed necessary.

*12: Well would you be so kind as to describe what requirements are needed for action to be deemed necessary?*
*It's not quite clear on what merits a "deemed necessary" action/response.*

That being said, lets keep the thread civil please.

MJS 
MT Asst. Admin
		
Click to expand...

_ 
_To address your questions from top to bottom._

_Whats debateable?  I've seen people on here many times, talk about something new and improved, when in fact, its nothing but an existing art, with a name change.  _

_You've noticed it in other areas here?  Please keep in mind, the staff here are not paid.  We all have lives outside of Martial Talk.  That being said, sometimes things are missed.  Much like a LEO the forum mods can't be everywhere all the time.  While the fourm rules here apply everywhere, there are some areas, such as The Great Debate and The Study, that allow a bit more heat, due to the nature of topics.  Not saying that its a free for all, but its a bit more relaxed.  _

_I wont speak for other forums, just this one.  Some are more relaxed on trolls, others not so much._

_I imagine you read thru all the rules when you joined right?  If not, please do so.    They're laid out pretty plain and simple.  But since you asked, let me give you an example.  If you and I were having a discussion and I disagree with your logic on the subject, no, thats not enough grounds for you to report my post.  People disagree, its part of life, deal with it.  Now, if during the same discussion, I start swearing at you, calling you names, insulting you, etc., yeah, thats a violation.  _

_But, by all means, if you feel something is in violation, report it.  It generates a report and the forum mods will review it.  As I said, we all live in different states, different time zones, different jobs.  We have a 3 day limit on reported posts, to allow for everyone to review the problem.  Just because something has been reported, does not mean that action will be taken.  Its forum policy not to discuss action taken with the members, but we do send out an acknowledgement PM, to the person who reported the post, to let them know we're reviewing, and if its deemed actionable or not._

_Hope this answered your questions.  In order to not sidetrack this thread, if you have any other issues, questions or concerns, please feel free to PM me directly._

_Mike_


----------



## Indie12

MJS said:


> _To address your questions from top to bottom._
> 
> _Whats debateable? I've seen people on here many times, talk about something new and improved, when in fact, its nothing but an existing art, with a name change. _
> 
> *12: Again debateable! I've seen many 'talks' and 'improved' systems, I'll agree not all new, but every once in a while you get someone with an original idea!*
> 
> _You've noticed it in other areas here? Please keep in mind, the staff here are not paid. We all have lives outside of Martial Talk. That being said, sometimes things are missed. Much like a LEO the forum mods can't be everywhere all the time. While the fourm rules here apply everywhere, there are some areas, such as The Great Debate and The Study, that allow a bit more heat, due to the nature of topics. Not saying that its a free for all, but its a bit more relaxed. _
> 
> _*12: True, however smaller issue could become bigger problems if not caught early!*_
> 
> _I wont speak for other forums, just this one. Some are more relaxed on trolls, others not so much._
> 
> *12: Agreed!*
> 
> _I imagine you read thru all the rules when you joined right? If not, please do so.  They're laid out pretty plain and simple. But since you asked, let me give you an example. If you and I were having a discussion and I disagree with your logic on the subject, no, thats not enough grounds for you to report my post. People disagree, its part of life, deal with it. Now, if during the same discussion, I start swearing at you, calling you names, insulting you, etc., yeah, thats a violation. _
> 
> *12: Yes, I've read the rules prior to joining (if you notice it asks you to read before clicking)... Disagreeing is fine, however what about tone in which you respond to a post? Attitude I guess? Bare in mind that pretty much anything is reportable... Though not actionable.*
> 
> _But, by all means, if you feel something is in violation, report it. It generates a report and the forum mods will review it. As I said, we all live in different states, different time zones, different jobs. We have a 3 day limit on reported posts, to allow for everyone to review the problem. Just because something has been reported, does not mean that action will be taken. Its forum policy not to discuss action taken with the members, but we do send out an acknowledgement PM, to the person who reported the post, to let them know we're reviewing, and if its deemed actionable or not._
> 
> *12: Just out of curiosity, is that a requirement for the Mods? No offense but I'm not particularly trustworthy of forum Mods. *
> 
> *12: 3 day limit? So in other words if a report of abuse is reported and not gotten to (understandably due to large volume) it wouldn't be dealt with?*
> 
> *12: Why not discuss action taken with the forum members? Long as your not naming names, it's not a confidentiality break.*
> 
> _Hope this answered your questions. In order to not sidetrack this thread, if you have any other issues, questions or concerns, please feel free to PM me directly._
> 
> _Mike_


 
No Prob!


----------



## MJS

Indie12 said:


> No Prob!


 


> To address your questions from top to bottom.
> 
> _Whats debateable? I've seen people on here many times, talk about something new and improved, when in fact, its nothing but an existing art, with a name change. _
> 
> *12: Again debateable! I've seen many 'talks' and 'improved' systems, I'll agree not all new, but every once in a while you get someone with an original idea!*
> 
> _You've noticed it in other areas here? Please keep in mind, the staff here are not paid. We all have lives outside of Martial Talk. That being said, sometimes things are missed. Much like a LEO the forum mods can't be everywhere all the time. While the fourm rules here apply everywhere, there are some areas, such as The Great Debate and The Study, that allow a bit more heat, due to the nature of topics. Not saying that its a free for all, but its a bit more relaxed. _
> 
> _*12: True, however smaller issue could become bigger problems if not caught early!*_
> 
> _I wont speak for other forums, just this one. Some are more relaxed on trolls, others not so much._
> 
> *12: Agreed!*
> 
> _I imagine you read thru all the rules when you joined right? If not, please do so.  They're laid out pretty plain and simple. But since you asked, let me give you an example. If you and I were having a discussion and I disagree with your logic on the subject, no, thats not enough grounds for you to report my post. People disagree, its part of life, deal with it. Now, if during the same discussion, I start swearing at you, calling you names, insulting you, etc., yeah, thats a violation. _
> 
> *12: Yes, I've read the rules prior to joining (if you notice it asks you to read before clicking)... Disagreeing is fine, however what about tone in which you respond to a post? Attitude I guess? Bare in mind that pretty much anything is reportable... Though not actionable.*
> 
> _But, by all means, if you feel something is in violation, report it. It generates a report and the forum mods will review it. As I said, we all live in different states, different time zones, different jobs. We have a 3 day limit on reported posts, to allow for everyone to review the problem. Just because something has been reported, does not mean that action will be taken. Its forum policy not to discuss action taken with the members, but we do send out an acknowledgement PM, to the person who reported the post, to let them know we're reviewing, and if its deemed actionable or not._
> 
> *12: Just out of curiosity, is that a requirement for the Mods? No offense but I'm not particularly trustworthy of forum Mods. *
> 
> *12: 3 day limit? So in other words if a report of abuse is reported and not gotten to (understandably due to large volume) it wouldn't be dealt with?*
> 
> *12: Why not discuss action taken with the forum members? Long as your not naming names, it's not a confidentiality break.*
> 
> _Hope this answered your questions. In order to not sidetrack this thread, if you have any other issues, questions or concerns, please feel free to PM me directly._
> 
> _Mike_




_Top to bottom again._

_We'll agree to disagree._

_I agree, and didn't mean to imply they werent important.  Anyone can report an issue.  If people see something and dont report it, vs. someone who sees it and reports it, those that dont, dont have any grounds to complain.  If we dont know about it, how can we act?  Again, we can't all be on 24-7._

_Yes, the tone should be friendly._

_Sorry, I cant help you with your trust issues.  Again, as I said, everyone isnt on at the same time, so we give 3 days to allow all mods to see, discuss and come to a decision.  There are some things that people felt were rude, but it was decided that it wasnt.  We do our best to be as fair as possible across the board.  I never said we'd disregard the ticket.  I said that after review it may be decided that its not actionable.  _

_Because its nobodies business other than the forum mods and the person in question.  _


----------



## elder999

shesulsa said:


> But the thing is he *hasn't* figured out a better way. He has noticed that his relaxed muscle tone and focused power works well. This is *far* from new and he doesn't even know *why* it works.
> 
> He. Has. Found. His. Individual. Fighting. Approach.
> 
> And he wants to make a system out of it.


 

That may be, but it's not what he said:



fenglong said:


> Basically it works by an *extremely low tonicity level* combined with maximized constant balance which allows for optimal reactions under any circumstance.
> .


 
Once again, from the _English Language Technical Manual_ (that's engineerspeak for _dictionary_, and explains why I used the other definition of "tonicity"):



> *[FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1][SIZE=+0]to·nic·i·ty[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]*
> 
> (t
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -n
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -t
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) [SIZE=-2]KEY[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=-1]*NOUN:*[/SIZE]
> _pl._ *[FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]to·nic·i·ties[/SIZE][/FONT]*
> *Normal *firmness or functional readiness in body tissues or organs.
> The *sustained partial contraction* *of* resting or *relaxed muscles*.


----------



## jks9199

Regarding moderator action:  Our general philosophy & goal is to do the least moderation possible.  So -- we will try to issue a fairly gentle, public reminder first.  No one is singled out, and it probably won't seem much like action is being taken.  Let me liken this to a patrol officer driving down the street...  The next general step is a formal warning.  These are pretty clear... (Attention all users...)  After that -- we get into private messages and infractions.

We don't discuss particular actions publicly because it ain't your business if User12345 got a penalty or not, as a general rule.  Praise in public, punish in private...


----------



## Chris Parker

Well, things have moved in odd directions in the last day or so, I'm just going to deal with the thread topic as it has developed (and leave MJS to deal with procedural issues.... enjoy, Mike!).



fenglong said:


> fenglong said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see if someone can actually get the value behind this.
> 
> "Flow like the wind and let the lightning strike."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is related to one of the core concepts of my MA.
> It is similar to the water concept in Taijiquan or which Bruce Lee mentioned.
Click to expand...

 
Now, personally, based on the way you have posted (and the context in which you put this), I'm not sure you really get what Bruce Lee was talking about there.... there's a big difference between Bruce's famous quote and the idea of elemental concepts guiding a martial art.



fenglong said:


> Basically it works by an extremely low tonicity level combined with maximized constant balance which allows for optimal reactions under any circumstance.


 
So... you relax and try to not fall over? Gotta say, by itself, that's not really much of anything, and is not related to reactions "under any circumstance" either.

So here's where you get to show that you have something... how do you maintain constant balance? What are your stance concepts and movement concepts that reflect that?



fenglong said:


> While the wind part focuses on smooth, relaxed body and mind conditions under any circumstance, no matter how exhausing, rough or painful, the lightning part focuses on maximized speed and strength equally.
> The philosophy is "you can't beat what you can't see".


 
Okay, the first part (smooth, relaxed body and mind conditions under any circumstance), frankly, isn't anything. And saying "under any circumstances" as often as you are again shows a lack of understanding, as that is not a good idea in the slightest. The "lightening" aspect again isn't anything but vaguaries. As for the "philosophy", that is, first off, not a philosophy but a maxim, or at best a concept or belief, and secondly, is fundamentally flawed from the get-go. But for more detailed understanding of what it seems like you are getting towards, look to concepts of Koteki Ryuda, Sen no Sen, Sen Sen no Sen, and, honestly, metsubishi.



fenglong said:


> The idea behind the lightning method is basically to generate as much acceleration as possible in a time frame as small as possible.


 
But how do you do that? Without a method, there is no martial art, just words that you think make something impressive. You have to have a method to achieve all of these things (which is what I was getting at in the "delusional list" of questions earlier, son), and that cannot be created in a vacuum (from scratch). Add to that the fact that it is highly unlikely (I would probably state impossible) for you to have come up with anything actually new, unless completely unviable.



fenglong said:


> Whereas the regular training would change my speed from extremely fast at the beginning, to average speed a few weeks/months later in trade for higher strength, my lightning methods constantly increase speed and strength.
> I may share some details about my lightning concept once I figured out what could be the reasons why it works.


 
I really don't think you understood the "regular training" then. It sounds like you had a method that you thought was "fast", and the instructor looked at you, and said "sure, but here's how to make it effective and powerful", which sacrificed some speed for that power or accuracy. Or your method was just way out for the art your were studying. Frankly, that's not a failing of the art, it's a failing of the student from where I'm sitting.

And if you don't know why something you have "works", then you have nothing. Just so you know.



fenglong said:


> So far my intuition about the things in my MA has proven to be right in 90% of times which is why I have gained such a high confidence in my MA, but after all I do not keep things that do not actually work out.


 
Your intuition has "proven to be right" according to who? How was it tested? So far I've heard a lot of classroom theory, but nothing to indicate anything real. Video will help (and no, you don't have to be fighting someone, but a base covering of some of your methods will be useful. I'll be able to see whether or not there's anything viable then, and honestly probably be able to sy if it's similar to anything else that I've encountered... which is a fair bit). 



fenglong said:


> Of course it is always tricky how long you spend on practicing something that has not yet proven to be worth keeping, it takes a lot of confidence.
> The first few years I struggled a lot, full of doubts and self-criticism, I basically felt like one of those ghost hunters seeing ghosts on every photo. ^^


 
Er, yeah. This entire section is, well, nothing. Sure, you may have confidence, but that doesn't mean it has any founding in reality. Again, if all of this is coming from what you think "works" or not, that is hardly enough for us to justify such confidence based on the understanding you've demonstrated so far.



fenglong said:


> Fortunately, my MA has a similar philosophy like the one of Kyokushin. Walking your way means enduring and persisting.


 
Now, just to give you the benefit of the doubt here again, can you talk about the philosophy of Kyokushin? Beyond the little bit you listed there, as that is only a very small bit of it, and not really how I would describe Kyokushin's philosophy myself.


----------



## teekin

fenglong said:


> So far my intuition about the things in my MA has proven to be right in 90% of times which is why I have gained such a high confidence in my MA, but after all I do not keep things that do not actually work out.
> Of course it is always tricky how long you spend on practicing something that has not yet proven to be worth keeping, it takes a lot of confidence.
> The first few years I struggled a lot, full of doubts and self-criticism, *I basically felt like one of those ghost hunters seeing ghosts on every photo. ^^*
> 
> Fortunately, my MA has a similar philosophy like the one of Kyokushin. *Walking your way means enduring and persisting*.


 
So your a persistant pananoid delusional? :uhyeah: _No really, who is this_? Can we have a hint? Do you carry a short sword favored by the roman centurians? Perhaps use to roll on Thusrday nights long long ago? Are fairly good at the striking arts? Have a killer anaconda choke? Can we have a hint?:spitcoffee:

Lori


----------



## shesulsa

These are not the ghosts you're looking for.

:jediduel:


----------



## Indagator

Fenglong, 

I felt I should make it known that having read through the continued discussion in this thread, and having reached a deeper level of clarity regarding where it actually is that you are coming from, it appears I completely misunderstood what you were saying intially. 
My comments on page 3 were not intended to encourage this at all. Rather, I had thought you were on a path to discover a more personal interpretation of the truths and concepts held within the martial arts in order to further your development as a person and as a martial artist. This I do encourage, as this I believe in. I daresay it would prove immensely beneficial for you to reconsider travelling this path, at least for the time being.
There have been some very insightful and valuable statements made by some very knowledgable martial artists in this thread, and I believe you have done yourself a grave disservice in dismissing them so quickly.
If you are serious about your progress, and if you will succeed in an enterprise where most fail, then you _must_ exhibit humility in the face of challenge here. Ignore the voice of pride in the face of these questions that have been asked of you in this thread, and allow yourself to truly consider what their answers may be - and be honest with yourself. You stand only to gain. 
It is not easy. That's the way it is.

With all the quoting of philosophical statements and such I would like to end by quoting one which holds great significance to me, in the hope it may prove useful to you also;

He who fails to confront himself constantly, fails to transcend his own weaknesses.


----------



## teekin

shesulsa said:


> *These are not the ghosts you're looking for.*
> 
> :jediduel:


 
Elvis has fled the building huh? If only he knew the Power of the Dark side!:fart:

Lori


----------



## Indie12

Grendel308 said:


> Elvis has fled the building huh? If only he knew the Power of the Dark side!:fart:
> 
> Lori


 
I tried the Dark Side, with a bowl of chocolate and a side of whip cream, it didnt' hit the spot!


----------



## SFC JeffJ

Looking at this thread had got me thinking about a lot of things I haven't considered in a long time.

Personally, I think the term "martial artist" is overused. Most of us are more like craftsmen, using tools and stratagems  developed by others. For most of us, adapting those to our own uses is enough.

Every now and then, someone will come along who starts off making this adaption, then either realizes, or maybe one of his students realizes, in making this adaption, has come up with something that applies to more than just him. Maybe even something that is a bit closer to being "universal". I think the people who manage to do this are the real Martial Artists.

Now the OP states that he trained in a couple of different MA's for about 10 years and studied for an additional 5 (whatever that means). Unless the guy is some kinda savant, and from reading his additional posts, it seems he hasn't even figured out what works for himself let alone anything close to the resemblance of anything that could even be considered a new martial art.

Jeff


----------



## Chris Parker

Hmm, don't think I'd quite agree there. I see what you're saying, but it really doesn't translate that way. If that were the criteria for the term "artist" then all actors would need to do exclusively improvisation, bands couldn't play covers or the same songs repeatedly, and so on. Art is more about the personal expression of established media and skills, often creative, but that doesn't mean that it needs to be a new creation, just that it needs to be a personal expression. This is how you can have five people show you the same kata, but it will be different for each of them (the level of artistry can be seen in the personal expressions). Adaptation can be part of it, but more often than not it just happens to be part of the overall expression of that person... and that adaptation is not necessarily artistically valid (or martially valid, for that matter), so just because adaptation happens does not put it above others who don't "adapt".


----------



## SFC JeffJ

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, don't think I'd quite agree there. I see what you're saying, but it really doesn't translate that way. If that were the criteria for the term "artist" then all actors would need to do exclusively improvisation, bands couldn't play covers or the same songs repeatedly, and so on. Art is more about the personal expression of established media and skills, often creative, but that doesn't mean that it needs to be a new creation, just that it needs to be a personal expression. This is how you can have five people show you the same kata, but it will be different for each of them (the level of artistry can be seen in the personal expressions). Adaptation can be part of it, but more often than not it just happens to be part of the overall expression of that person... and that adaptation is not necessarily artistically valid (or martially valid, for that matter), so just because adaptation happens does not put it above others who don't "adapt".


Eh, now it's my turn to disagree with you, lol.

Just because someone performs a kata a bit differently doesn't make it art. The principles and techniques in the kata are what's important. If you adapt it so much, those aren't transmitted, then the kata becomes worthless, 'cept maybe in awful forms competitions. But adapting it to fit, lets say your body size, that would be a good thing. But I would not consider that being art.

To use your music analogy, I played electric bass in bands for a number of years. We did some originals, but mostly covers. Some of the songs we played we changed around a bit to fit our style and strengths. Personally, I would not consider that art.

Of course, since what we are talking about is mostly subjective, this is just my own opinion. It just happens to be the right one :angel:.

Jeff


----------



## Chris Parker

Ha, my point was not that such things are necessarily art, just that creative, "new" techniques are far from the definition or essential criteria for it being art. Really, both can be, and both can just as easily (or, really, more easily) fail to be! But so you know, my background includes acting and as a musician (gratuitous plug here, see if you can find Restless Company on you-tube), playing drums initially, then playing around with guitar, bass, mandolin, some keyboards, and pretty much anything I wanted to pick up. Add to that my martial art including both expression of established movements (in my teaching and training) and creatively coming up with new training drills, class formats, teaching programs etc. Then there's my songwriting and poetry explorations.... 

But yeah, this is very subjective. And you're half right, at least!


----------



## fenglong

Wooh I got an orange belt!
But I bought a 10. dan online, where do I enter the serial code to update my rank here? :uhyeah:


----------



## Chris Parker

(Not sure why I'm extending this trollish thread, but hey!)

So you've come back 9 months later with a post that adds nothing whatsoever, and still have no answers to the questions you've been posed, or the video you were repeatedly asked for, which you always said was coming? What on earth did you resurrect this thread for, as all it does is remind people how little you understand or know about martial arts, really....


----------



## fenglong

Lol hello, I see you are still mad that I disagreed with you..
..had RL issues which stopped me from training but now im back. =)
You really think I still remember questions from 9 months ago? Sorry... maybe when I find the time I will read back into it again.
But to defuse some bombs that still seem to be ticking here even though its been such a long time....: Although I do pay attention to self-defense and effectiveness, my focus really is the elemental aspect. Like animal styles would begin by imitating the certain animal and their combat movements and even mental aspects like attitude, my MA is to embody storms. As I have explained from the beginning, I am not trying to create something new or unique, nor do I copy or adapt anything from other styles, I simply try to focus on the storms idea.
So far I have ended up with moves and ideas that may remind of Taijiquan, Taekgyeon and Kyokushinkai, but it has never been my intention.


----------



## ballen0351

fenglong said:


> , my MA is to embody storms. As I have explained from the beginning, I am not trying to create something new or unique, nor do I copy or adapt anything from other styles, I simply try to focus on the storms idea.









Storm Power


----------



## fenglong

Think of it for a moment. Combat happens on the mental level for around 70%.
I was just sick of crap on my mind distracting me during sparring, of course in an actual self-defense situation that stuff will be gone once adrenaline kicks in. But after a certain point you dont feel that much adrenaline anymore because you got used to it and that is where regular crap starts to occupy your brain again.
I think I should make a website about this because it feels really messy rolling this up from the backside.
The storm idea is just metaphoric of course, it is supposed to provide the person with certain attitudes, just packed into a natural picture "storms" we can intuitively understand, such as flexibility, relaxation, letting your opponent run into void, killing their balance, overwhelming and breath-taking actions and so on..


Originally I was tired of complicated moves in Chinese MA without flexibility. In the end I found it stupid your brain fills up with hundreds of specialized techniques that you could only effectively utilize after ages of practicing in situations as close to real combat as possible. I figured if there was a style based on something everyone can intuitively understand, learn and train it should be about just as effective, but less ... "artificial".


----------



## fenglong

Speaking of "own MA"....
.... what do you think about IWC (Innovatice Wing Chun)?
I came across this link 
http://www.usadojo.com/kata/viewfull.asp?bioid=6 
and thought (interesting).

For some weird reason the only video I could find about it was 




and i thought (?...)
so I asked them directly on the FB profile and the result was:

"
*&#40845;&#39080;



Innovative Wing Chun and Bare-Knuckle Boxing
*

*Hi,  I got a question. I was wondering why there are no application videos  or other kinds of videos providing at least a little bit of insight into  IWC?
 I am working on my own "innovative" martial arts and after all  the researching and exchanging I have done, in my opinion it is rather  disappointing and suspicious claiming a martial arts to be really  effective yet not providing some videos with "obvious" info.*

Like ·  · January 28 at 7:55am · 




Innovative Wing Chun and Bare-Knuckle Boxing So  you want me to provide you with videos. Would you like free lessons as  well? How about I go to work and do your job? How pathetic it is when  someone wont do the hard work and wants videos and online information,  rather than just getting your *** over here and training hard! I am very  suspicious of you sir!" 
 
"

I think it is slowly getting time for this thread to be closed...


----------



## Native

Read this whole thread.. like a train wreck. Just to catch you back up, Fenglong, because it looks like you have had a long time to think about things. 



fenglong said:


> I will post a link once I got the first video done but I won't reply anymore since this topic has turned into some sort of hocus-pocus direction.



1: What is the power source your art uses?

2: What is the primary angle used?

3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?

4: What is the environment your art is designed for?

5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?

6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?

7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?

8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?


----------



## Chris Parker

fenglong said:


> Lol hello, I see you are still mad that I disagreed with you..
> ..had RL issues which stopped me from training but now im back. =)
> You really think I still remember questions from 9 months ago? Sorry... maybe when I find the time I will read back into it again.
> But to defuse some bombs that still seem to be ticking here even though its been such a long time....: Although I do pay attention to self-defense and effectiveness, my focus really is the elemental aspect. Like animal styles would begin by imitating the certain animal and their combat movements and even mental aspects like attitude, my MA is to embody storms. As I have explained from the beginning, I am not trying to create something new or unique, nor do I copy or adapt anything from other styles, I simply try to focus on the storms idea.
> So far I have ended up with moves and ideas that may remind of Taijiquan, Taekgyeon and Kyokushinkai, but it has never been my intention.



Still mad? Nope. Never was. I was frustrated with you, but that's a different thing entirely.

The rest of this post is honestly just noise with no real meaning whatsoever.



fenglong said:


> Think of it for a moment. Combat happens on the mental level for around 70%.
> I was just sick of crap on my mind distracting me during sparring, of course in an actual self-defense situation that stuff will be gone once adrenaline kicks in. But after a certain point you dont feel that much adrenaline anymore because you got used to it and that is where regular crap starts to occupy your brain again.
> I think I should make a website about this because it feels really messy rolling this up from the backside.
> The storm idea is just metaphoric of course, it is supposed to provide the person with certain attitudes, just packed into a natural picture "storms" we can intuitively understand, such as flexibility, relaxation, letting your opponent run into void, killing their balance, overwhelming and breath-taking actions and so on..



Hmm... no.



fenglong said:


> Originally I was tired of complicated moves in Chinese MA without flexibility. In the end I found it stupid your brain fills up with hundreds of specialized techniques that you could only effectively utilize after ages of practicing in situations as close to real combat as possible. I figured if there was a style based on something everyone can intuitively understand, learn and train it should be about just as effective, but less ... "artificial".



And in this comment you sum up your lack of understanding of the realities of training in martial arts, particularly those with larger curriculums.



fenglong said:


> Speaking of "own MA"....
> .... what do you think about IWC (Innovatice Wing Chun)?
> I came across this link
> http://www.usadojo.com/kata/viewfull.asp?bioid=6
> and thought (interesting).
> 
> For some weird reason the only video I could find about it was
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and i thought (?...)
> so I asked them directly on the FB profile and the result was:
> 
> "
> *&#40845;&#39080;
> 
> 
> 
> Innovative Wing Chun and Bare-Knuckle Boxing
> *
> 
> *Hi,  I got a question. I was wondering why there are no application videos  or other kinds of videos providing at least a little bit of insight into  IWC?
> I am working on my own "innovative" martial arts and after all  the researching and exchanging I have done, in my opinion it is rather  disappointing and suspicious claiming a martial arts to be really  effective yet not providing some videos with "obvious" info.*
> 
> Like ·  · January 28 at 7:55am ·
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Innovative Wing Chun and Bare-Knuckle Boxing So  you want me to provide you with videos. Would you like free lessons as  well? How about I go to work and do your job? How pathetic it is when  someone wont do the hard work and wants videos and online information,  rather than just getting your *** over here and training hard! I am very  suspicious of you sir!"
> 
> "
> 
> I think it is slowly getting time for this thread to be closed...



Look, frankly Armando doesn't come across particularly well there at all, nor does he seem particularly impressive from what I've just read... but does his response to your request mean anything? Here, you were the one offering video footage, after it was requested as the phrasings you use really don't mean anything when it comes to martial art. Additionally, Armando is basically just doing a slightly different version of Wing Chun, not making up things on the back of nothing much at all. So I fail to see the relevance to your situation. If you had half the credentials that Armando claims, you would probably see just how bad your ideas are coming across here.



Native said:


> Read this whole thread.. like a train wreck. Just to catch you back up, Fenglong, because it looks like you have had a long time to think about things.
> 
> 
> 
> 1: What is the power source your art uses?
> 
> 2: What is the primary angle used?
> 
> 3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?
> 
> 4: What is the environment your art is designed for?
> 
> 5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?
> 
> 6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?
> 
> 7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?
> 
> 8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?



Yep, these are some of the most pertinent questions. All I was going to say was that, well, if you don't remember the questions, you're in luck! You can simply go back and re-read this thread you're reading now! You don't need to actually remember then, as they're still sitting there, in black and white for you. Simple, really....


----------



## Gnarlie

Hi, I've trained Kukkiwon TKD for about 12 years, amongst other arts.  It's been said that I am talented, but in no way do I consider myself an expert in MA.  I have my own ideas about how MA techniques and principles work, and I make those ideas work for me within the bounds of the art that is TKD.  I have no idea why someone would think that having this amount of experience is enough to create a new form of martial art, even if the experience were combined with genius levels of creativity and intelligence (doubtful).

I think Chris's questions are absolutely valid, and would suggest that if these points are not at least considerations when building an art, then said art will be more of a damp squib than a full on storm.

Here are my answers for TKD.  I've had to make some horrible generalisations, but it's not that challenging to answer if you've given your art due diligence.

1: What is the power source your art uses?

Power is generated through two main sources, which may or may not be used in isolation or combination.  1) Twisting the waist then transferring that motion into the desired direction, and 2) Shifting the body weight over the stance.

2: What is the primary angle used?

45 Degrees

3: How is your art classed (striking, grappling, generalist)?

By others, striking.  By me striking & grappling.

4: What is the environment your art is designed for?

Debatable.  Military / Dojang / Tournament / SD - it depends on how you learn and what you ask

5: What weaponry concepts are in your art, if any?

Most commonly knife and short stick, attack and counter with trapping / locking disarms.

6: What is the primary rhythm, or what are the primary rhythms of your art?

1,1-2,1-2-3, broken rhythm with feints.  Depends on the situation.

7: What are the main postures of your art, and how do they reflect the primary strategies of your art?

Long and short walking stances, and back stance, reflecting the concepts of aggressive weight shifting for power transference, mobility for turning purposes, and defensive weight shifting to unbalance repectively.  Generally these stances are combined with two-handed parry / strike / grab combinations.

8: What are the primary tactics of your art, as well as the primary strategy?

The primary strategy is to overwhelm the opponent.  This is achieved through striking with the feet and hands.  The primary tactics used to facilitate striking are a 45 Degree position of advantage, unbalancing the opponent and striking during the unbalanced phase.


----------



## Aiki Lee

Instead of multi-quoting (which I always seem to mess up somehow), I'm going to put my responses in red.



fenglong said:


> Think of it for a moment. Combat happens on the mental level for around 70%.
> 
> This number seems rather arbitrary, but I think I catch your meaning. Yes, a very huge part of fighting is about the mentality of those in the situation.
> 
> I was just sick of crap on my mind distracting me during sparring,
> Training in the Japanese concepts of Isshin, mushin, and zanshin will eliminate such distraction.
> of course in an actual self-defense situation that stuff will be gone once adrenaline kicks in.
> This depends on your level of training. The truth is that in a self-defense situation everyone will hesitate and a million thoughts will race at once (why is he doing this? what's going on? should I fight back? Should i just run? Should I call the police? Will I go to jail? ect. With training this delay between thought and action will decrease.
> 
> But after a certain point you dont feel that much adrenaline anymore because you got used to it and that is where regular crap starts to occupy your brain again.
> In self-defense? NO. In training, maybe, but that is indicative of lazy training and needs to be addressed by being more mindful of the situation and focusing on the results you want.
> 
> The storm idea is just metaphoric of course, it is supposed to provide the person with certain attitudes, just packed into a natural picture "storms" we can intuitively understand, such as flexibility, relaxation, letting your opponent run into void, killing their balance, overwhelming and breath-taking actions and so on.
> I'm not really sure what you are talking about. How are storms a concept? I mean I can see storms as a metaphor for anger or danger, but what do they have to do with flexibility or relaxation?
> 
> Originally I was tired of complicated moves in Chinese MA without flexibility. In the end I found it stupid your brain fills up with hundreds of specialized techniques that you could only effectively utilize after ages of practicing in situations as close to real combat as possible.
> Martial arts should not be focused on the techniques themselves but rather the principles and startegies that are expressed through techniques.
> 
> I figured if there was a style based on something everyone can intuitively understand, learn and train it should be about just as effective, but less ... "artificial".
> Martial arts are not intuitive. It is training because you actively work to do something that you could not do before. If it was intuitive people would do it without effort, and martial arts requires effort. Some people may be more apt to some martial arts than others but that is usually due to body composition and the personality of the practitioner. And I have no idea what you mean by artificial.



A martial arts concept cannot be built from such a lofty and unrealistic idea of "I like stroms, so I'm going to make a martial art based off that." Martial skill is built when a person studies the reality of combat and recognizes that certain things happen in fighting and there must be practical ways to deal with it. It does not sound like you are interested in exploring the practicality of martial arts. I honestly have no idea what you are trying to achieve, even after all this time.


----------



## Josh Oakley

fenglong said:


> Wooh I got an orange belt!
> But I bought a 10. dan online, where do I enter the serial code to update my rank here? :uhyeah:



.... :mst:


----------



## oaktree

fenglong said:


> Think of it for a moment. Combat happens on the mental level for around 70%.
> I was just sick of crap on my mind distracting me during sparring, of course in an actual self-defense situation that stuff will be gone once adrenaline kicks in. But after a certain point you dont feel that much adrenaline anymore because you got used to it and that is where regular crap starts to occupy your brain again.
> I think I should make a website about this because it feels really messy rolling this up from the backside.
> The storm idea is just metaphoric of course, it is supposed to provide the person with certain attitudes, just packed into a natural picture "storms" we can intuitively understand, such as flexibility, relaxation, letting your opponent run into void, killing their balance, overwhelming and breath-taking actions and so on..
> 
> 
> Originally I was tired of complicated moves in Chinese MA without flexibility. In the end I found it stupid your brain fills up with hundreds of specialized techniques that you could only effectively utilize after ages of practicing in situations as close to real combat as possible. I figured if there was a style based on something everyone can intuitively understand, learn and train it should be about just as effective, but less ... "artificial".



So instead of working on your flexibility you think instead to give up and say" it is stupid for your brain to fill up hundred specialized technique
There is a saying in Chinese"Zhi yao gong fu shen tie chu mo cheng zhen" &#21482;&#35201;&#21151;&#22827;&#28145;&#38081;&#26485;&#30952;&#25104;&#38024; it means if you work hard enough you can grind an iron bar into a needle.

One of the arts I practice is Chen Taijiquan. In the form there is 75 steps in Laojia Yi Lu. Everyone of those steps has applications but you need a teacher to point out
 the applications behind it. One of the things practicing the steps does is train your body and mind to move as one unit, to understand where and how power is generated.
When you understand this you practice Tuishou or push hands and are able to put it into practice with a partner this starts the idea of free sparing and the theory of combat in Taijiquan. Wong Kiew Kit in his book_"The complete book of Taijiquan" _said that it takes a while to develop skill in Taijiquan and he suggests practicing Thai boxing.

I agree if you are interested in a quicker development then it would be a practical choice. I think you take everyone's feed back and meditate on creating your style and why you want to and how to go about it. My suggestion is if you truly want to do that then get a bunch of people and work hard on it. Really spar hard and see what works and doesn't. If you can make an art that can show a practical application then bravo!
But there are many people on Youtube who created their own arts and you can see the results of their labor.


----------

