# Tae Ge Hyul?



## AmericanTangSooDo

Hi Im a black belt in American Tang Soo Do (the original Chuck Norris System before it was renamed it Chun Kuk Do in 1991). I had a question concerning a form and hopefully my fellow TSD can help me out. In 1986 there was a big split within the Chuck Norris organization. Most of the black belts stayed with Mr. Norris and his UFAF, some went with Pat Johnson who reformed the old (Norris founded) National Tang Soo Do Congress, and many went on their own.

Anyway over the years most of the schools/organizations that trace their lineage back to Chuck Norris use the same forms list as one another. Though many have added newer design forms and changed the traditional forms order. But I have noticed that there is a form called Tae Ge Hyul in Pat Johnsons NTC organization that doesnt seem to be in any other ATSD group that I know of. Not even Mr. Norris UFAF/CKD names this form.

I was wondering does anybody have any info on Tae Ge Hyul (alternate spellings: Tae Ji Hyul, Dae Ji Hyul, Tae Ji Heyul)? Is it a tradional Korean form or like most TSD forms of Japanese/Okinawan origin? If it is of Japanese/Okinawan origin what is its counterpart? Description of it's movements? Etc.

Theres only three sites where I have found any mention of this form but they dont give much info other than what rank it's form. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## Kacey

Can you provide a few movements for comparison with other forms?  I know one called Tae Gae (alternate spelling Toi Gye)... but it's from TKD, not TSD.  It's taught at 3rd gup, as a testing requirement for 2nd gup.  You can see the movements listed here.


----------



## AmericanTangSooDo

Kacey said:


> Can you provide a few movements for comparison with other forms?  I know one called Tae Gae (alternate spelling Toi Gye)... but it's from TKD, not TSD.  It's taught at 3rd gup, as a testing requirement for 2nd gup.  You can see the movements listed here.



I've personally have never seen this form. However I did post this same question on another message board and did get some responses there too. 

From what was posted it's a very old form from the MDK going back as far as the 1960s. It's was translated as "fighting in a tunnel" and includes several interesting techniques including strikes to the ground and in some versions a cartwheel. Sounds like a very interesting form definitely would like to see a written description of it or even better yet an actual video of it.


----------



## zohran

A quick google brings up this site:

http://www.geocities.com/david_a_hacker/MartialArts/matab.html

The links to the all the forms on that page have an improper \ in the link so changing it to / brings us to this:

http://www.geocities.com/david_a_hacker/MartialArts/MAForm/TaeJiHeyul.htm

Nothing informative at all except for it's translation.  Different then what you have posted. "Finding the vital points of the earth"

This link talks about a forthcoming book that has the form in it, the book is unpublished at this time:

http://hermitkingdompub.com/comingsoon.html

There is a wealth of information on this board so hopefully someone will be able to shed some light on your question.  Especially now that i am curious about the answer as well.


----------



## zohran

I was discussing this form with my instructor last night.  (We also come from the Chuck Norris System by the way.)  He is familiar with this form.  It is one of the older/rarer forms that is getting harder and harder to find nowadays.

I do not know the form and I'd hate to get something 'lost in translation' so, my instructor's contact information is located at http://www.yowellkarate.com if you are interested in more info.


----------



## Muwubu16858

> A quick google brings up this site:
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/david_a_hac...rts/matab.html


 
I know this is off topic, but this site has several misinterpretations of hyung names, IMHO.


----------



## nathanwc

I train in American Tang Soo Do under GM Ichikawa and M Mark Cox.
This is our version of this form.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2438107714737920578


----------



## Bubbles

AmericanTangSooDo said:


> Hi Im a black belt in American Tang Soo Do (the original Chuck Norris System before it was renamed it Chun Kuk Do in 1991). I had a question concerning a form and hopefully my fellow TSD can help me out. In 1986 there was a big split within the Chuck Norris organization. Most of the black belts stayed with Mr. Norris and his UFAF, some went with Pat Johnson who reformed the old (Norris founded) National Tang Soo Do Congress, and many went on their own.
> 
> Anyway over the years most of the schools/organizations that trace their lineage back to Chuck Norris use the same forms list as one another. Though many have added newer design forms and changed the traditional forms order. But I have noticed that there is a form called Tae Ge Hyul in Pat Johnsons NTC organization that doesnt seem to be in any other ATSD group that I know of. Not even Mr. Norris UFAF/CKD names this form.
> 
> I was wondering does anybody have any info on Tae Ge Hyul (alternate spellings: Tae Ji Hyul, Dae Ji Hyul, Tae Ji Heyul)? Is it a tradional Korean form or like most TSD forms of Japanese/Okinawan origin? If it is of Japanese/Okinawan origin what is its counterpart? Description of it's movements? Etc.
> 
> Theres only three sites where I have found any mention of this form but they dont give much info other than what rank it's form. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!




Hi, I train in the National Tang Soo Do Congress, and I know this form quite well.  The translation of the name we are told is Form of the Willow.  However I am sure this may not be the only translation, nor the most accurate.  The form is a short form and the way we do it is very very similar the the video posted above by the American Tang Soo Do practitioner.  Where do you train at and who do you train under?


----------



## nathanwc

Hi Bubbles,
Don't know if your last question was for me or AmericanTangSooDo.
I teach and train in Chatsworth, a suburb of Los Angeles. GM Ichikawa was a former manager of Mr Norris's Sherman Oaks School many years ago. He has modified the forms a slight bit since then but otherwise we still learn what was passed to him by GM Norris and GM Pat Johnson. His website is http://www.towestlakekarate.com/.


----------



## Bubbles

nathanwc said:


> Hi Bubbles,
> Don't know if your last question was for me or AmericanTangSooDo.
> I teach and train in Chatsworth, a suburb of Los Angeles. GM Ichikawa was a former manager of Mr Norris's Sherman Oaks School many years ago. He has modified the forms a slight bit since then but otherwise we still learn what was passed to him by GM Norris and GM Pat Johnson. His website is http://www.towestlakekarate.com/.



oh haha i was talking to americantangsoodo, but nice to hear from you as well.  I am very familiar with your organization.  I have known Master McMeekin for many years and grew up with his son William.


----------



## AmericanTangSooDo

Bubbles said:


> oh haha i was talking to americantangsoodo, but nice to hear from you as well.  I am very familiar with your organization.  I have known Master McMeekin for many years and grew up with his son William.



Hello Bubbles,

I trained under Arthur Sanchez down in Culver City, California. He's a black belt under Chuck Norris from way back in the 1970s. Back during the days of the original National Tang Soo Do Congress. He knows both Pat Johnson and Dennis Ichikawa.

I was looking at one of your earlier posts and it was actually nathanwc and not myself who posted the video of Tae Ge Hyul. However, I did find these two videos performed by a Tang Soo Do-Moo Duk Kwan black belt. According to the poster the form translates to "Big Earth Hole."

Tae Ge Hyul (Version 1)





Tae Ge Hyul (Version 2)


----------



## AmericanTangSooDo

Bubbles said:


> Hi, I train in the National Tang Soo Do Congress, and I know this form quite well.  The translation of the name we are told is Form of the Willow.  However I am sure this may not be the only translation, nor the most accurate.  The form is a short form and the way we do it is very very similar the the video posted above by the American Tang Soo Do practitioner.  Where do you train at and who do you train under?



Hi Bubbles,
I was wondering since you mentioned that you know Tae Ge Hyul, if you could post a copy of it. It doesnt have to be of you necessarily, but of anyone performing the NTC version of it. It would be very interesting to see what the differences are between the NTC version, nathanwcs version, and the Moo Duk Kwan version that I've seen. Thanks.


----------



## Tim37200

I really appreciate stuff like this - thanks a lot!

(BTW, long-time reader, new poster!)


----------



## Kinghercules

Funny that I came across this.  We were just talkin about Tae Gi Hyul the other day.
Pat Johnson and Chuck Norris had train under Ki Whang Kim back in 60's and 70's.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Zombie alert...


----------



## FrontKick-Jab-Punch

I come from the same exact background as the original poster, so I'm grateful to see these videos - my memories of the form are hazy.  While we're on the topic, anyone have a video of (sp?) Ro Hai lying around?  I think that was the form right above Tae Gi Hyul...  I only remember parts of it - it was supposed to be the highest form in our style.  I thought.  Maybe.

I'm surprised to hear there are NTC studios still around - my info had it that the Pat Johnson side of things had been shrinking away while UFAF was growing.  Untrue?  I still remember the NTC form...!

FKJP


----------



## AmericanTangSooDo

FrontKick-Jab-Punch said:


> I come from the same exact background as the original poster, so I'm grateful to see these videos - my memories of the form are hazy.  While we're on the topic, anyone have a video of (sp?) Ro Hai lying around?  I think that was the form right above Tae Gi Hyul...  I only remember parts of it - it was supposed to be the highest form in our style.  I thought.  Maybe.
> 
> I'm surprised to hear there are NTC studios still around - my info had it that the Pat Johnson side of things had been shrinking away while UFAF was growing.  Untrue?  I still remember the NTC form...!
> 
> FKJP



You are correct; &#8220;Rho Hai&#8221; is the highest form in American Tang Soo Do. On a side note, since my original post I have had the opportunity to learn &#8220;Tae Ge Hyul&#8221;. Anyway, unfortunately the National Tang Soo Do Congress (NTC) has indeed gotten smaller over the years. From what I know Pat Johnson&#8217;s most senior black belt Roger Lacombe left several years ago to join UFAF, leaving only one school in the Antelope Valley region of Los Angeles County left. UFAF on the other hands does continue to grow. In addition to all the schools they have in the U.S., they also have some in Mexico, Norway, and Paraguay.


----------

