# Question about gunting



## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 6, 2019)

Right, i cant remember what you call the position i am going to try and explain or what you call the situation i am about to explain so i cant title this accurately.  At least i hope the current title sums it up well.  

But i was watching a "Kali center" video a while ago where he got into how they deal with either the clinch or the range just before it or a guard and he said something along the lines of just going for the hand.

Now he didnt cover it for unarmed in that video.  

so after that really convoluted starter.    how well does gunting stack up for unarmed?   Best i can determine it seems like it would work decently on a  battlefield and as a means to keep it in your muscle memory to go for the arms and hands etc with weapon if you have one.  

I know adrenaline probably leaves it as not that useful unless you are going to have a extended fight with someone and obviously FMA is meant to be a "get a weapon first" style for the most part. 

I presume FMA unarmed just looks like kickboxing for the most part like plenty of other styles tend to look like? Maybe a little more hesitant to take a hit for a hit maybe.

Edit: i suppose a ultimate question to this is:  how do you "defang the snake" when you have no weapons.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 6, 2019)

So first: FMA unarmed from my experience does not look like kickboxing. And most styles don't look like kickboxing...if you know what you're looking at. That takes actually training to see though. If you look at @JowGaWolf 's videos you can see this. 

Now regarding defanging the snake, typically the idea unarmed in FMA, again from my experience, is to get to your own weapon, while preventing the opponent from using there's. I suppose the defanging aspect is getting them to not use there's; that's done either by knocking there hand away as hard as you can, in a way that gives you time (to run, 'stun', or grab your weapon), or by 'trapping' there arm to allow stunning or grabbing your weapon. I've never heard it referred to that aspect as defanging the snake, but I suppose it could fit.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 7, 2019)

I have seen them do it. Lots of scissor style blocks or bicept strikes.

As far as practicality I have sort of made the concept work when people fence their hand out bit haven't really ever caught a punch with it.


----------



## Danny T (Aug 7, 2019)

I'm not a knowledgeable in all FMAs but in Pekiti-Tirsia 'gunting' is a scissoring motion. Empty hand in Pekiti derives from knife. The gross motion of gunting is used across all weapon categories with is being a parrying motion in concert with a striking motion. With a weapon it's easy to see the destructive nature of the strike. With empty hand while it can be painful it isn't very destructive. We tend to use empty hand gunting more as a drill for practicing & fine tuning timing, targeting, and a place holder for when one has a weapon. 
Can it be successful to 'destroy' a fist...yes it can be very painful but in the reality of a fight one has to have precise timing and positioning. I've pulled off many guntings and have had many done to me in empty sparring but it has never stopped the other person. Sore knuckles and bruised muscles but never stopped me whereas the follow-ups to the gunting has caused far more damage.


----------



## dvcochran (Aug 7, 2019)

I agree with Danny. It is a fairly natural defensive posture. It is important to remember you are going to be in close and will have control of only one arm, depending on your follow through. I don't remember stepping to the inside of the attacking arm but I suppose it would work and may get you in a better position to get your own weapon.
I definitely see it as a block or entry into a lock, not a strike, although a block can be delivered with quite a lot of force. 
You see a cross block/scissor block/gunt quite a lot in TKD but the thought process is different. Usually it is practiced for an attack coming in very low (front kick to groin) or very high (downward strike). The motion after the block doesn't flow as cleanly as the motions in Kali in my opinion. They are more attuned to the out-fighting methodology of TKD. 
I am curious to hear @skribs thoughts on this.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 7, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> If you look at @JowGaWolf 's videos you can see this.



If he does get around to showing up, a video post or two would be nice.  

See i dont think i had someone explain it as a action to move the fist out of the way or buy time to get a weapon.       Obviously i know FMA is weapons first mentality, but i thought the ideology for unarmed was its otherwise out of play, either you dont have it, or its not out or it broke.   At least in part.  

The only real Gunting esque thing i would say has a really high viability rate (on its own merit) is the high guard with elbows.  Thats not really used as a opening to strike second, you can really break fists with your elbows so if you present someone the hardest segment of your skull and elbows they run a real risk of breaking their fist.            And a tag onto that, not sure if its FMA or not, is directing, or trying to direct someone fist into your elbow in that guard.   and its predominately defensive unless you count trying to direct fists onto your elbows and offensive.  


thanks for replies anyway.

@Danny T   would be interesting to know, does the majority of people benefit in timing etc after doing those drills for long enough?


----------



## Christopher Adamchek (Aug 7, 2019)

you got some good answers, wish i got to this question sooner, there isnt much i can add lol


----------



## skribs (Aug 7, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I agree with Danny. It is a fairly natural defensive posture. It is important to remember you are going to be in close and will have control of only one arm, depending on your follow through. I don't remember stepping to the inside of the attacking arm but I suppose it would work and may get you in a better position to get your own weapon.
> I definitely see it as a block or entry into a lock, not a strike, although a block can be delivered with quite a lot of force.
> You see a cross block/scissor block/gunt quite a lot in TKD but the thought process is different. Usually it is practiced for an attack coming in very low (front kick to groin) or very high (downward strike). The motion after the block doesn't flow as cleanly as the motions in Kali in my opinion. They are more attuned to the out-fighting methodology of TKD.
> I am curious to hear @skribs thoughts on this.



I don't even know what gunting is.  What is it you want my opinion on?


----------



## MetalBoar (Aug 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> I don't even know what gunting is.  What is it you want my opinion on?


I *do* know what gunting is and still every time I read this thread title I see "grunting" and I wonder what the heck that has to do with martial arts. Are we talking about a kiai or a question about the valsalva maneuver? Oh! right! _gunting_ not grunting!


----------



## skribs (Aug 7, 2019)

MetalBoar said:


> I *do* know what gunting is and still every time I read this thread title I see "grunting" and I wonder what the heck that has to do with martial arts. Are we talking about a kiai or a question about the valsalva maneuver? Oh! right! _gunting_ not grunting!



I don't even know what the valsalva maneuver is.


----------



## MetalBoar (Aug 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> I don't even know what the valsalva maneuver is.


Well, there's a lot more to it but as it might relate to this forum it's a method of breath control that's used in power lifting and some other related activities to stabilize the trunk and maximize functional force output: Valsalva maneuver - Wikipedia

A grunt is a partial, usually unintentional, valsalva.


----------



## geezer (Aug 7, 2019)

MetalBoar said:


> I *do* know what gunting is and still every time I read this thread title *I see "grunting" *and I wonder what the heck that has to do with martial arts. Are we talking about a kiai or a question about the valsalva maneuver? Oh! right! _gunting_ not grunting!


 
^^^^Me too. Glad to know I'm not the only one.

The FMA I trained did not emphasize gunting, especially empty handed. The emphasis was on going "direct" and shutting down the core. Gunting, if it happenned was an opportunistic thing that might happen as a by-product of good position, etc.

In WC I've done, this would fall under the saying (kuen kuit) Chase center, don't chase hands!


----------



## Argus (Jun 21, 2021)

geezer said:


> ^^^^Me too. Glad to know I'm not the only one.
> 
> The FMA I trained did not emphasize gunting, especially empty handed. The emphasis was on going "direct" and shutting down the core. Gunting, if it happenned was an opportunistic thing that might happen as a by-product of good position, etc.
> 
> In WC I've done, this would fall under the saying (kuen kuit) Chase center, don't chase hands!



I always thought of the gunting, with or without weapons, to be more of an opportunistic thing for when you can reach the opponent's arm, but not his body.

I haven't actually tried it in empty hand sparring but it did occur to me from a Wing Chun perspective that it might be a great way to harass the limbs of someone who doesn't close/commit/come in. Step out and gunting to the inside of the elbow or such. If you do that in range of their other hand, however, it's a lot more dangerous and much more advantageous to just chase center, for all the reasons that we're familiar with!

Granted, like I said, I haven't actually tried this with empty hands.

Edit: One more thought. In an empty hand versus weapon scenario, a gunting with a strike to the inside of the wrist can be an excellent disarm if the opportunity presents itself. My first ever disarm, before I even had done FMA, was accidental: I just a panick slapped to the inside of the wrist against an incoming thrust, which resulted in the knife flying out of my attacker's hand. The gunting can definitely be used that way too, I'm sure.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 21, 2021)

skribs said:


> I don't even know what the valsalva maneuver is.


It's more accurate to say "A" valsalva maneuver as there are actually quite a few. Basically they are used to stimulate the vegas nerve as a way to potentially terminate some tachyarrhythmias (rapid, abnormal heart rhythms). Some of the more common methods are carotid massage (please leave this one the the professionals...), blowing through a straw (you can mimic this effect by pursing your lips or wearing one of those stupid "altitude masks"), dunking your face in ice water, and so forth.
Simulating the vagas nerve causes the heart rate and blood pressure to drop. If they drop enough, so do you. This is what you're trying to do when you strike someone in the solar plexus.


----------



## punisher73 (Jun 21, 2021)

Ron Balicki has a dvd set out on Filipino Boxing.  He shows some live sparring clips where this is applied.

In regards to "defanging the snake", we practice punching the opponents hand(s), especially the ring/pinky knuckle area.  Most people don't bother to move or protect their hand because they don't see it as a target.


----------



## skribs (Jun 21, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's more accurate to say "A" valsalva maneuver as there are actually quite a few. Basically they are used to stimulate the vegas nerve as a way to potentially terminate some tachyarrhythmias (rapid, abnormal heart rhythms). Some of the more common methods are carotid massage (please leave this one the the professionals...), blowing through a straw (you can mimic this effect by pursing your lips or wearing one of those stupid "altitude masks"), dunking your face in ice water, and so forth.
> Simulating the vagas nerve causes the heart rate and blood pressure to drop. If they drop enough, so do you. This is what you're trying to do when you strike someone in the solar plexus.


Can you rephrase this with layman's terms?


----------



## Anarax (Jun 24, 2021)

Rat said:


> Right, i cant remember what you call the position i am going to try and explain or what you call the situation i am about to explain so i cant title this accurately.  At least i hope the current title sums it up well.
> 
> But i was watching a "Kali center" video a while ago where he got into how they deal with either the clinch or the range just before it or a guard and he said something along the lines of just going for the hand.
> 
> ...


Interesting post. My experience with defanging techniques stems from FMA, but it has helped me understand how to apply it to other styles. IMO the "fang" in defanging takes on different forms, not trying to be philosophical. The "fang" is essentially a weapon, either natural(fist, foot, etc) or unnatural(knife, stick, etc). Defanging to me means reducing/neutralizing your opponents weapons. Gunting an opponent's fist, spike their foot when they kick or simultaneously strike their bicep and parry their punch, etc.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 28, 2021)

Anarax said:


> Interesting post. My experience with defanging techniques stems from FMA, but it has helped me understand how to apply it to other styles. IMO the "fang" in defanging takes on different forms, not trying to be philosophical. The "fang" is essentially a weapon, either natural(fist, foot, etc) or unnatural(knife, stick, etc). Defanging to me means reducing/neutralizing your opponents weapons. Gunting an opponent's fist, spike their foot when they kick or simultaneously strike their bicep and parry their punch, etc.



I dont know if i had it in the mind at the time, but there is a guard thats about smashing fists on your elbows, so i suppose that would be the unarmed form of gunting, other than the  attack the arms as much as possible.       I think some karate styles have their block double up as a arm/fist attack, so you hit the arm you block or damage it in some way as you block it.  (the only one i can recall right now thats not the elbow head guard)



Also just in general, my uncertaintly here is largely to be blamed on, "nothing works 100% exept for my system that works 100%" and things of that ilk.    Parries to some people are considered nonsesical  yet they are in many if not every unarmed fighting system, so there must be some merit to them if kept around.   Guntings smaller (depends how you define it) but martial arts in the same sort of block as it have kept it around. 

Id probbly just view this as a layerd thing*, instead of not attacking the fist as you evade and put up a intercept your interception attempts to disable or damage it in some way.      As you tend not to do just one thing for defence, like the easiest defence is just move your entire body out of the way.    I dont really dispute its usefulness anymore if ever did.   It probbly does suck for self defence as i wrote earlier as self defence engagemnts tend to be short so adrenlised, but its not compeltely useless and is normally done off the back of something else, like instead of just parrying a punch, you parry then hit their arm, its not like some bad videos may show of they just punch you in the bicep and go "haha i win".  Consisent heavy strikes to the same spot tend to hurt after a while.       

And thats my justification tangent over and done with.  


*And you should view defence as a layered thing and it be explained as such. 

Addendum:  I also slightly blame general media here, as media influences perception a lot so unrealstic depeictions being shoved down your throat tend to become fact.   Irrelivent of if they are or arent.         The saying "keep saying it long enough it becomes true even if it isnt" is based in reality.


----------



## Anarax (Jul 2, 2021)

Rat said:


> I dont know if i had it in the mind at the time, but there is a guard thats about smashing fists on your elbows, so i suppose that would be the unarmed form of gunting, other than the attack the arms as much as possible. I think some karate styles have their block double up as a arm/fist attack, so you hit the arm you block or damage it in some way as you block it. (the only one i can recall right now thats not the elbow head guard)


Yes, we have numerous guards in our FMA system that can spike the fist with the elbow. Karate has some similar blocks as well.


Rat said:


> Also just in general, my uncertaintly here is largely to be blamed on, "nothing works 100% exept for my system that works 100%" and things of that ilk. Parries to some people are considered nonsesical yet they are in many if not every unarmed fighting system, so there must be some merit to them if kept around. Guntings smaller (depends how you define it) but martial arts in the same sort of block as it have kept it around.


Yeah, parries are practical. I think the issue is when some martial artists try to use a parry for ALL attacks. Knowing to read the ques for the attacks helps to use a proper defense. 


Rat said:


> Id probbly just view this as a layerd thing*, instead of not attacking the fist as you evade and put up a intercept your interception attempts to disable or damage it in some way. As you tend not to do just one thing for defence, like the easiest defence is just move your entire body out of the way. I dont really dispute its usefulness anymore if ever did. It probbly does suck for self defence as i wrote earlier as self defence engagemnts tend to be short so adrenlised, but its not compeltely useless and is normally done off the back of something else, like instead of just parrying a punch, you parry then hit their arm, its not like some bad videos may show of they just punch you in the bicep and go "haha i win". Consisent heavy strikes to the same spot tend to hurt after a while.


Yes, layered is a great way of seeing it. In our FMA system the parry/guard/not getting hit is the first priority, spiking/gunting the fist is second.


----------

