# Opinion on school's pricing plan



## Anarax (Mar 31, 2021)

My friend told me about an interesting experience he had at a Dojo. 

He entered the establishment and asked about a particular class he was interested in attending. He was told non-paying members can't watch nor participate in the class(even the beginners) until he pays for two months in advance as well as training gear. 

What are your thoughts on this? For those that run a school, do you let people attend a class or two for free? Watch a class for free? What are your tuition/pricing plans?


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## MetalBoar (Mar 31, 2021)

Anarax said:


> My friend told me about an interesting experience he had at a Dojo.
> 
> He entered the establishment and asked about a particular class he was interested in attending. He was told non-paying members can't watch nor participate in the class(even the beginners) until he pays for two months in advance as well as training gear.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this? For those that run a school, do you let people attend a class or two for free? Watch a class for free? What are your tuition/pricing plans?


I personally wouldn't train someplace that wouldn't let me at least watch a class first unless they had some really good explanation (that I can't even imagine) for why I couldn't. I've trained with a lot of schools over the years and checked out a lot more and I don't think I've ever had one tell me I couldn't watch a class outside of one or two that said I could try out one or more for free but they didn't allow an audience.


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## dvcochran (Mar 31, 2021)

Anarax said:


> My friend told me about an interesting experience he had at a Dojo.
> 
> He entered the establishment and asked about a particular class he was interested in attending. He was told non-paying members can't watch nor participate in the class(even the beginners) until he pays for two months in advance as well as training gear.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this? For those that run a school, do you let people attend a class or two for free? Watch a class for free? What are your tuition/pricing plans?


The best thing he could do is walk away. 
We gladly let people try a few/several classes. If you believe in your product it is not something to worry about. Exposure is the best seller in this respect.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 31, 2021)

Weird. But a commercial school often has to do things that seem weird to me to keep the doors open. I'd just wave good bye and go find a different school.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 31, 2021)

Anarax said:


> For those that run a school, do you let people attend a class or two for free? Watch a class for free? What are your tuition/pricing plans?


We had free trials.  I forgot for how many days, people were allowed to watch. We figure if they are watching then they are one step closer to joining.  Better that they watch in our school than some other school.

I don't remember our pricing but we had 2 plans Individual and Family.   As far as my thoughts on not allowing people to watch or try a class.  I don't think much of it.  I personally wouldn't train there.  My curiosity doesn't work that way.  Some people would join because they feel as if they are training in a secret society and that's the selling point.  The down side to secrets is that very few people know them which is bad marketing.  And when the secret is finally let out, it usually doesn't live up to it's hype.   The things in this world that have last the longest are things that people knew about.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 31, 2021)

Anarax said:


> What are your thoughts on this?


Many years ago, one guy walked into my school (I was alone in my school). He asked what would he learn in the 1st month. I showed one basic form for him. He said, "Just 1 kick?" He then left. I stood there and felt I was an idiot. If I could show him an advance form (with jumping kick and tornado kick), I might be able to get some money out of his pocket.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 1, 2021)

Expecting someone to buy ANY product sight unseen is ridiculous.  The only logical conclusion is that there really is no (quality) product and it's a con. 

Or perhaps it was a test.  Sounds like something the old masters would have pulled to screen out undesirable students.  Who would want to teach someone with so little sense to agree to such a thing?


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## dvcochran (Apr 1, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> We had free trials.  I forgot for how many days, people were allowed to watch. We figure if they are watching then they are one step closer to joining.  Better that they watch in our school than some other school.
> 
> I don't remember our pricing but we had 2 plans Individual and Family.   As far as my thoughts on not allowing people to watch or try a class.  I don't think much of it.  I personally wouldn't train there.  My curiosity doesn't work that way.  Some people would join because they feel as if they are training in a secret society and that's the selling point.  The down side to secrets is that very few people know them which is bad marketing.  And when the secret is finally let out, it usually doesn't live up to it's hype.   The things in this world that have last the longest are things that people knew about.


I can't remember too many people purely watching more than one or two classes. I/we actively engage spectators, even if it is a parent waiting on their kid. Really helps evaluate and value the program.
If someone came and saying they were transferring from another school or variant I would likely spend more time with them, both to help them understand any differences and for my own education.


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## dvcochran (Apr 1, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Expecting someone to buy ANY product sight unseen is ridiculous.  The only logical conclusion is that there really is no (quality) product and it's a con.
> 
> Or perhaps it was a test.  Sounds like something the old masters would have pulled to screen out undesirable students.  Who would want to teach someone with so little sense to agree to such a thing?


This is the difference between a commodity item and a service item. Most of us buy stuff sight unseen everyday (I assume you have bought something online?). You may 'know' you are buying the same widget you bought last month but how do you know it is not slightly different or defective when looking at it on a screen or just pushing the reorder button.
The service industry does not or at least should afford this luxury.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 1, 2021)

Anarax said:


> He entered the establishment and asked about a particular class he was interested in attending. He was told non-paying members can't watch nor participate in the class(even the beginners) until he pays for two months in advance as well as training gear.


Absolute deal breaker for me. The only possible exception might be if the teacher was a highly in-demand coach with a proven track record of consistently producing champion fighters. Even then I'd be dubious because I wouldn't be sure whether the coach's teaching style was a good fit for me personally.

I think the gym I teach out of offers a free sample class or two, but at the very least I would expect to be able to watch a class before making a significant financial investment. If I can't see a class, how do I know whether the instructor has the knowledge, skill, or teaching ability to be worthwhile? How do I know whether their teaching style fits my learning style? How do I know whether the training atmosphere is safe, friendly, and productively focused?

That sort of "pay me first and then I'll show you what I have to offer" approach makes me suspicious that the instructor doesn't actually have much of value to attract new students.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 1, 2021)

I used to give adults one month free. It's a trial period for both of us. They get to decide if they really want to train, I get to decide if I really want to teach this person. Either party can say nope sorry.
Retention for me is important. I dont want to waste my effort and floor space on someone that is going to quit 4 months in anyway.


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## Buka (Apr 1, 2021)

Obviously Martial Arts secrets abound there!

I wouldn't go anywhere near that place. Neither would anyone I know.

I always let prospective students train for a month for free. I wanted them to know what their training was going to be like. It worked pretty well, as everyone else helped them. They did light sparring as well.

Then if they signed up, they had one month to get a gi.


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## WaterGal (Apr 1, 2021)

Requiring you to pay for 2 months of classes before you can even watch a class is pretty weird.

IME, most schools do one of two things. They either 1) let people come and take a free class (maybe a few free classes) to try it out, or 2) they have a low-priced trial membership, like 2 weeks for $20. The first one gets more people to come by and try it, but it means that you have to deal with some time-wasters who just want a free thing. So it depends on your process and how much you're willing to deal with time-wasters. We've tried both, and both can work.


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## Anarax (Apr 1, 2021)

Update

They also said he would have to buy their training gear even though he already had brand new gear of his own.

Their website and pamphlets made claims of a "World Renowned" coach that teaches the class. Come to find out it was two "junior instructors" with less than two years experience between the two of them that teach both classes(beginner/advance). The "World Renowned" coach never teaches the class. He chose not to sign up for their class and has found a decent looking place he's trying out now.

Thank you guys for all of your input


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## dvcochran (Apr 1, 2021)

hoshin1600 said:


> I used to give adults one month free. It's a trial period for both of us. They get to decide if they really want to train, I get to decide if I really want to teach this person. Either party can say nope sorry.
> Retention for me is important. I dont want to waste my effort and floor space on someone that is going to quit 4 months in anyway.


Attrition is pretty high at most schools. What is your percentage?
It is a crystal ball that is usually cloudy. I agree there are some people you can tell will leave quickly but I leave that up to them and make sure I know why they are leaving and that it is amicable and on good terms. That can quickly be the wrong kind of advertising.


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## dvcochran (Apr 1, 2021)

Buka said:


> Obviously Martial Arts secrets abound there!
> 
> I wouldn't go anywhere near that place. Neither would anyone I know.
> 
> ...


I can buy lightweight uniforms for about $7 bucks with our logo on the back. I give one to every new student. Basically free advertising. Soon after they figure out they need at least two uniforms and that the first one is low end. Almost always ends up with them purchasing another uniform from me. With the exception of the really high end uniforms like an Adidas adiflex master ii I can be competitive with online sales and they have it right away.


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## Buka (Apr 1, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I can buy lightweight uniforms for about $7 bucks with our logo on the back. I give one to every new student. Basically free advertising. Soon after they figure out they need at least two uniforms and that the first one is low end. Almost always ends up with them purchasing another uniform from me. With the exception of the really high end uniforms like an Adidas adiflex master ii I can be competitive with online sales and they have it right away.



Seven bucks with the logo sounds great. 

Remembering the days of having only one gi makes me nostalgic.


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## dvcochran (Apr 2, 2021)

Buka said:


> Seven bucks with the logo sounds great.
> 
> Remembering the days of having only one gi makes me nostalgic.


They are Choi Brother lightweights so they are a thin poly/cotton blend. Great for a beginner/novice and cheaper than a pair of sweats and tee shirt (which I have looked into). The worst thing about them is when a person is a heavy sweater. They have that terrible 'tacky' feeling and pit stain like crazy. 
If you purchase regularly you need to check out Choi Brothers. They are fantastic. Have been with them since the '80's and have most stuff (the common items/0-5 uni's, sparring gear,etc...) set up on auto recurring shipments which makes things much easier. 
Good times.


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## Buka (Apr 2, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> They are Choi Brother lightweights so they are a thin poly/cotton blend. Great for a beginner/novice and cheaper than a pair of sweats and tee shirt (which I have looked into). The worst thing about them is when a person is a heavy sweater. They have that terrible 'tacky' feeling and pit stain like crazy.
> If you purchase regularly you need to check out Choi Brothers. They are fantastic. Have been with them since the '80's and have most stuff (the common items/0-5 uni's, sparring gear,etc...) set up on auto recurring shipments which makes things much easier.
> Good times.



Thanks, I would if I was still purchasing gis. Not training like I used to I'm pretty sure my heavyweight gi will last me until I croak. 

I had lightweight, fairly inexpensive gis for the students. Most of the long term guys went to heavy weight gis.

Billy Blanks' first wife was a talented seamstress. She used to make us heavyweight gis made out of canvas sail cloth. Took about a year of training and laundering to even break those suckers in. But once broke in, best damn gis I ever wore.


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## dvcochran (Apr 2, 2021)

Buka said:


> Thanks, I would if I was still purchasing gis. Not training like I used to I'm pretty sure my heavyweight gi will last me until I croak.
> 
> I had lightweight, fairly inexpensive gis for the students. Most of the long term guys went to heavy weight gis.
> 
> Billy Blanks' first wife was a talented seamstress. She used to make us heavyweight gis made out of canvas sail cloth. Took about a year of training and laundering to even break those suckers in. But once broke in, best damn gis I ever wore.


They do have a great feel. My first black trimmed top is canvas. Faded and well broke in. 
It is Gi style by the way. Well before the dobok style became popular in TKD. 
One of the tie strings is ripped off and I need to get that fixed.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 3, 2021)

There's only two instances where I can see someone charging without allowing for people to look in. 

The first is that it's part of some military/militia group that's private and needs either some sort of clearance or vouching program to view/participate. The second is if the person isn't really looking at it as a school, just teaches friends/a specific inner circle, and really isn't looking for new students, but is open to you coming to the group classes if you pay. The first one I personally don't have a need to join but I can see how a group might want their secrecy for whatever reason. The second situation, I can see myself going to _if_ the person comes highly recommended by a martial artist I trust, and it's clear that the reason for it is just that they don't see any reason to expand/promote for new members.

Outside of that, if I'm not able to do a trial class, or at least look in, I'm not paying.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> There's only two instances where I can see someone charging without allowing for people to look in.
> 
> The first is that it's part of some military/militia group that's private and needs either some sort of clearance or vouching program to view/participate. The second is if the person isn't really looking at it as a school, just teaches friends/a specific inner circle, and really isn't looking for new students, but is open to you coming to the group classes if you pay. The first one I personally don't have a need to join but I can see how a group might want their secrecy for whatever reason. The second situation, I can see myself going to _if_ the person comes highly recommended by a martial artist I trust, and it's clear that the reason for it is just that they don't see any reason to expand/promote for new members.
> 
> Outside of that, if I'm not able to do a trial class, or at least look in, I'm not paying.


I've seen two instances of the second situation. These guys didn't really like starting new students - they wanted to work with folks beyond that point, so they only took folks who seemed committed enough to hang around a while. So they didn't encourage folks to watch a class, and never gave free classes. The thought was that folks who would join anyway were more likely to last at least a few months. Both of them had a loophole they knew and saw as a way for folks to get a class without a commitment. Both did regular seminars, and those were open to almost anyone. They didn't suggest it, but expected prospective students to figure that out and attend a seminar to see what they do.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 3, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> There's only two instances where I can see someone charging without allowing for people to look in.
> 
> The first is that it's part of some military/militia group that's private and needs either some sort of clearance or vouching program to view/participate. The second is if the person isn't really looking at it as a school, just teaches friends/a specific inner circle, and really isn't looking for new students, but is open to you coming to the group classes if you pay. The first one I personally don't have a need to join but I can see how a group might want their secrecy for whatever reason. The second situation, I can see myself going to _if_ the person comes highly recommended by a martial artist I trust, and it's clear that the reason for it is just that they don't see any reason to expand/promote for new members.
> 
> Outside of that, if I'm not able to do a trial class, or at least look in, I'm not paying.


The second scenario you describe is pretty much what my situation is with my Sifu.  We train in his back yard, it is very private, he only has a handful of active students, isn’t interested in expanding, and I never would have gotten through the front door (or even known which door to knock on to begin with) if I hadn’t had an introduction by my previous Sifu, who had been his student.  The only big difference is we pay one month at a time, with no obligation beyond that.  But no, he does not give free classes and is not open to people wandering in to watch a class.


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## Graywalker (Apr 4, 2021)

Strange indeed. Why would you pay for a product unseen?


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## TularosaKungFu (Jul 13, 2022)

Old thread, but I segregate accepted students from public and public pay for a tai chi gi and can see a public class first. But that is for tai chi and children.
Accepted students are expected to pay on entry and order a sturdy uniform and shoes, which they get at cost. So it's around $100 for that first month of gong fu and $25-$35 to jump in the open tai chi group. I don't care about anything free or any blowhards trying to bluffalo some free by chipping chunks off me. They should be paying double as it is. Ours has a few more benefits laying around than most, including the dai fu program that costs $$ (.....which is not "a fun new game". Saw some hilarious misuse, but wasn't surprised)

Sorry but all this bending over to draw people (and be abused by blowhards who only say "so then what?" I say, show them a cross the room hurling throw, like it was bullshido.) 
Is a begging thing of hard times and not only are they being poxxed, weirdos are kicking their as* in the street? I'm not entertainment, I'm a life skill they can move on by if they want to?

In 1975,  guys boiled in doors of every kind of dojo there was and had regard for their school. These things now are nursery maid enough without further encouraging the "something for me just 'cause" and recall the actually accurate "lucky to find, lucky to be here, could have brought tea?"

Public deals? Sure. Old people tai chi and kiddo stomp-n-yell? I think of those as kind of "obligatory community" and easy to fulfill.....unlike trainers and monks, who take all care, have often supernatural expectations and bash through gear and supplies. 
I like a tiger pit.....not lame brothers sad coupon day or "just roamin around, lookin for guys I can beat to hang with" 

Your times are upon you. Let the morale be raised and the ramen soup budget era of "oh come on? Free sample? Cater to ya?" lay in ashes before us. Bah!


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## ShortBridge (Jul 13, 2022)

I guess I'd like to hear more from the dojo about their policy. 

I (and most places) allow at least an observation if not a trial class, but traditional martial arts are not a modern convenience subscription. 

Personally, I don't sell training gear or uniforms or anything like that. Our monthly dues are low and I have been accused not being totally transparent about them, but that's really because my decision and perspective students should not be based on money. I obviously tell people at the point where I consider them a sincere candidate.

I vet people and encourage them to vet us and alternatives. I want to know that they have a sincere and informed interest in what we do and how we do it. I want to know why they want to train and what their expectations are so that I'm certain that we can support their objectives. We do what we do; we don't accommodate cafeteria style knowledge transfer (e.g. - I just want to learn some trapping range tricks to mix with ...)

I talk to people on the phone, answer their questions, ask my own. Sometimes I point them in the direction of alternatives based on where they live or what they say they are looking for. If after all of that, it feels like it might be a fit, I offer a money and commitment free class to them and then afterward we decide together if we're good for them and they're good for us. 

But, most people want to just email and get information or "drop by", which is not possible, because we're hidden away in a basement of a commercial building in Chinatown.

Based on what you told us about said dojo, that's unusual and not reasonable. Why would anyone commit and buy stuff without more information? But, I don't assume we have the whole story and if it is a traditional style and teacher, then the bottom line is that they set the terms for becoming a student.


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## J. Pickard (Aug 9, 2022)

Anarax said:


> My friend told me about an interesting experience he had at a Dojo.
> 
> He entered the establishment and asked about a particular class he was interested in attending. He was told non-paying members can't watch nor participate in the class(even the beginners) until he pays for two months in advance as well as training gear.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this? For those that run a school, do you let people attend a class or two for free? Watch a class for free? What are your tuition/pricing plans?


I'm a fan of try it before you buy it and always offer a free class (sometimes 2) and even a discounted trial period of 2 weeks. It is not a good idea to join a martial arts school without knowing how it runs first so this is a big red flag to me. It is important to know that the dojo is operated safely and offers quality instruction so the fact that you have to pay to even watch seems like the owner is not legitimate and/or has something to hide.


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## Buka (Aug 9, 2022)

J. Pickard said:


> I'm a fan of try it before you buy it and always offer a free class (sometimes 2) and even a discounted trial period of 2 weeks. It is not a good idea to join a martial arts school without knowing how it runs first so this is a big red flag to me. It is important to know that the dojo is operated safely and offers quality instruction so the fact that you have to pay to even watch seems like the owner is not legitimate and/or has something to hide.


I agree. I used to let anyone train for a month free if they wanted. Probably not the best business practice, but it was a busy dojo and didn't seem to matter.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 9, 2022)

J. Pickard said:


> I'm a fan of try it before you buy it and always offer a free class (sometimes 2) and even a discounted trial period of 2 weeks. It is not a good idea to join a martial arts school without knowing how it runs first so this is a big red flag to me. It is important to know that the dojo is operated safely and offers quality instruction so the fact that you have to pay to even watch seems like the owner is not legitimate and/or has something to hide.


I've always offered a free class or so if someone wants to try it out, but I have doubts about most new students' ability to assess a school by that. What I can do with a brand new student in their first class is usually dramatically different from what they'll be experiencing in a couple of weeks, to say nothing of what they'll experience in a few months.

But it's the best tool I know of for this purpose, so I still offer the free class.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 9, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I've always offered a free class or so if someone wants to try it out, but I have doubts about most new students' ability to assess a school by that. What I can do with a brand new student in their first class is usually dramatically different from what they'll be experiencing in a couple of weeks, to say nothing of what they'll experience in a few months.
> 
> But it's the best tool I know of for this purpose, so I still offer the free class.


I offer four free classes.  I believe that a prospective student needs a fair chance to evaluate whether they connect with me as a teacher and with the approach to training that I take, as well as the system itself.  That evaluation cannot be done in one or two sessions.  It probably cannot be done by a true beginner in four sessions, but it is my attempt to give them a fair shake.   Eventually I cannot just be doing it for charity.


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