# Grappling and multiple enemies



## bujuts (Jul 23, 2003)

Greetings all,

I've trained very little in the way of grappling / ground fighting though I'm interested in learning it.  However, there's one issue I have that no one has really been able to answer me satisfactorily:

I've never seen any testimony to demonstrate grappling & ground fighting is effective for multiple enemy situations.

First, the typical response is "how many multiple opponent situations are you really going to run into?"  Realistically, few if any.  But that doesn't help.

I study a system that emphasizes multiple enemy situations with weapons - as it is taught to Special Operations units at Fort Carson in CO.  We all know the outcome of a hand-to-hand situation in a military setting -- no KO's, points, or submissions.  You go on the ground in a knife fight, you probably won't get up.

I'd really like to hear from you grapplers out there.

Thanks

Steven Brown
CO


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## Pyros (Jul 23, 2003)

Yes many times. In grappling against multiple opponents, you throw people at and on each other, you throw them so they are dead when they drop, you break people's limbs instead of making them tap out and so on. See Japanese jujutsu for more info.


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## MJS (Jul 23, 2003)

Bujuts-  You bring up many good points!  As for the mult. attackers, yes, you dont want to roll on the ground for 20 min with 1 guy while his buddies are kicking your head in.  This is one of the things that all stand up guys say about BJJ....that it won't work on the ground.  In a mult attacker situation, if you find yourself on the ground, you should have some basic skills to get back to your feet so you can continue the fight.  Also, using the principles of Aikido, nothing says that you cant do your standing grappling, and use one attacker to your advantage by using him as a shield or throwing him into the others.

As for the knife.  I do train, on occasion, with someone that addresses grappling while one person has a knife.  It definately opens your eyes to what you can and can't do.  You can take a good portion of the submissions and throw them out the window, because they will leave you open to getting cut or stabbed.  

If any situation, you want to try to keep it standing, but you should be prepared for the ground.  I"m not saying that one has to stop doing the art they have been doing for the past 10yrs and start studying BJJ.  I'm saying that everybody should have a least the basics of the ground.  For someone to stand there and say that they will never go to the ground, is a big mistake.  

Also, in regards to the stand up arts--how many of those that claim to teach mult attacker defense, actually does it in a realistic fashion?  I'm talking about 5 guys all coming at you at the same time, maybe some with weapons....not having the defender stand there and the attackers come in 1 at a time.  That is probably the most unrealstic way of teaching.  This isnt going to be a Van Dam movie, its going to be people who are really trying to kill you.  Probably one of the better people who I have seen address the mult attacker senario, is Paul Vunak.  He seems to really address the "aliveness" that is so important in your training!

Mike


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## bujuts (Jul 23, 2003)

Mike,

Thanks for the great response.  I'm definitely going to pursue this subject more to incorporate it into my own repetoire.

As for instructors teaching multiple attacker situations, you couldn't be more correct in that some teach unrealistic scenarios.  However, I am aware of great strides being made to improve the combatives taught to some Special Ops units in the US Army.  From what I understand, the military, even the USMC, does not always present quality material, especially to a unit of fresh eighteen year olds straight out of high school and with new buzz cuts.  I'm glad for these efforts.  Those boys need it most, because there is no more serious situation for a martial human to encounter.

Enjoyed chattin' with you.

Steven Brown
CA


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## Kirk (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bujuts _
> *First, the typical response is "how many multiple opponent situations are you really going to run into?"  Realistically, few if any.*



Do you feel the odds of a single attacker in the street are more than the odds of multiple attackers?  Where do you live, so I
can move there?  Gang rape, gang muggings are fairly common.


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## bujuts (Jul 23, 2003)

Thanks for the response.

I should have clarified.  I agree with you that these situations are common.  What I meant was I expected that to be the typical response to my question.  When I said "Realistically, few, if any", I was referring to myself.  I may run into a situation like this, I may not.  I used to be a bouncer in a bad section of Phoenix.  Not so any more, and I don't frequent myself in places that could typically harbor problems.  I'm just saying that the odds are less for me than for others.  But I'm wise enough to 

Enjoyed the conversation.

Steven Brown
Texan by birth


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## Elfan (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bujuts _
> *I've never seen any testimony to demonstrate grappling & ground fighting is effective for multiple enemy situations.
> *



Thats because it is genearly un-useful in these situations and for that reason should not be the base of your art if your intention is practical self defenes.


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## chinkoobake (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *Thats because it is genearly un-useful in these situations and for that reason should not be the base of your art if your intention is practical self defenes. *


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## lvwhitebir (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Do you feel the odds of a single attacker in the street are more than the odds of multiple attackers?  Where do you live, so I
> can move there?  Gang rape, gang muggings are fairly common. *



I think they're only common because they are more highly reported than other crimes.  It's like last year's child abduction stories.  The year was actually average with regards to abductions, it just seemed so much worse.

According to the latest USDOJ statistics, of all reported Crimes of Violence, 79.3% had a single offender, 8.7% had 2 offenders,  3.8% had 3 offenders, and 5.2% had 4 or more offenders.  This is nationwide (USA).

For women working this from a self-defense-against-rape angle, 96.9% of sexual assualts were from 1 offender and 3.1% were from 2 offenders.  Nothing for more than 2 attackers (percentage-wise).

Finally, if you realize that most violent crimes are assault, especially among those 12-20 years old, and that 75% of those are simple assault (no weapon), I would think that grappling would still work well as self defense.  Working scenarios against 1-2 people covers nearly 90% off what you'll probably face.

WhiteBirch


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 23, 2003)

Seems like I've had this discussion somewhere before...

Strikers argue that you can't defend against multiple opponents if you are on the ground or if you can't strike...

Grapplers argue that strikers over estimate their skills, can't defend against even one skilled opponent, and strikers are deluding themselves if they think they can beat two or more opponents...

The truth lies somewhere in between:  With multiple attackers, escape must be priority #1.  If the attackers are determined and skilled, victory by a double or multiple knockout is unlikely.  Striking skills and staying on your feet are paramount to successful defense and escape in a multiple attacker situation.  That being said, when faced with multiple attackers, it is almost certain that one will attempt a grab/takedown to enable others to strike more easily.  Grappling skills can help you stay standing and/or return to your feet to defend and escape.

As to whether you will be attacked by one or by multiple attackers, who knows?  There are many reasons fights start:  ego, robbery, rape, assasination, rage, etc.  Any of those could be from a single attacker or from a multiple attacker.  Do you live in gangland?  If so multiple attacks are more likely.  But, do you really train for multiple attackers?  Cooperative drills won't do it for you.  Alive drills against multiple attackers will quickly demonstrate the futility of trying to fight a horde.  Like defeating an armed attacker, defeating multiple attackers is the stuff of martial arts fantasy and if you can do it, then you probably have even more luck than you have skill.


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## twinkletoes (Jul 30, 2003)

Thanks, OFK, for bringing us back to reailty.

Strikers are quick to point out that grappling arts are not good for multiple attackers.  I have yet to see a striker demonstrate realistic defenses against multiple attackers too! (The best I've seen was a demo by Roy Harris, who used a LOT of footwork, some eye jabs, and some tie-up controls & knees.)  

I think if you want to train realistically for multiple attackers, you need to work the following:

-Footwork!!!!!

-Takedown defenses

-Simple moves that will stun / distract your attackers

-moves to control the positioning of your attackers

-tactics to create openings to run


The simple moves should be things like eye jabs and knees.  

I should probably add, though, that if I had to pick one traditional style that I thought could dispatch multiple assailants quickly my money might just go to Judo.....

If you're a skilled judoka, you probably have the best chance of putting people down hard, and not taking too long to do it.  

I would also put money on a 1-punch KO boxer like Igor Vovchanchin, or a guy who can put you down with 1 thai kick to the legs.  

Anywho, the way to figure out of you can handle it is give a few people (however many you want) some gloves, and start sparring them (yes, all at once).  Concentrate on movement, rather than specific tactics.  Focus on controlling their movement by staying out of the middle, leading them into each other, etc.  

Resist the temptation to make it a cooperative execrcise!  No waiting for you to dispatch the first guy, or going along with an unrealistic technique.  They should all be trying to GET YOU, and get you good!

~TT


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## Bod (Aug 12, 2003)

Good question. I think in multiple attackers situations, especially if one tries to tie you up whil e the others take free shots at you, grappling experience could be what you need most.

However, I also believe that many people practise very static grappling, I say this as a Judo practitioner, despite their teachers begging them to move a bit more for the sake of 'better' grappling. Better, in this context means more applicable to fluid situations.

Although it does my competition ability no good at all, I try to practise fluid, attacking, Judo, using all and any grips (except high collar grips). It's frustrating to be counterthrown constantly, but it's the price I am prepared to pay for learning the sort of Judo which could get me out of trouble, rather than keeep me tied down in a multiple attacker situation.


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## twinkletoes (Aug 13, 2003)

I want to add something little:  check out Frank Benn's article on BJJ vs. Multiple Opponents.  It is archived at Stickgrappler's Archives.  

His main thesis is that if he's fighting two guys, he wants one of them under his knee, in the knee-on belly position.  

I tend to agree strongly with what he says in the article.

~TT


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## MNKaliGroupRayW (Aug 20, 2003)

I have found several styles of Grappling that can be benificial in a multiple assailant situation. I like training in BJJ and CSW (Eric Paulson's Combat Submission Wrestling) for the entry-takedowns, escapes and submissions (or breaks on the street). I tried for years to stay clear of the mats, but once I got a taste I saw the truth of it all. As for Silat, there is a HUGE repetoir of techniques for Entry, control of position, and submission/destructions that most wrestler/grapplers have never seen. Plus the silat tends to be very mobile where the intent is to always finish fast and move on to the next assailant or vacate the area.

If I do get tangled up, I want to be able to free myself and gain a superior position for attack or flight. The UFC and other events have shown that the best way to defend against grapplers is to at the very least, learn the fundamental of BJJ or similar arts.

Ray
www.absolutejkd.com


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## Old Tiger (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *
> His main thesis is that if he's fighting two guys, he wants one of them under his knee, in the knee-on belly position.
> 
> ...



Twinkle,
I have to jump in here bro. The knee on belly position is not good. You will not control a good grappler with this. Couple of points, a good grappler has a good bridge, strong enough to support the weight of two people. All he has to do is bridge explosively and turn and he is gone. also, the knee on belly leaves your groin open to attack. Try controlling a grappling training partner with nothing but knee on belly and see how long he stays there. There are some great counters that go right to leg locks, toe holds etc from the bottom in the knee on belly scenario.
Also like to throw in:
If you think that you can avoid grappling in a fight your chances of doing so are slim. Sure, the straight right or a good jab sometimes ends a fight. I'm not saying it can't happen. But if in the encounter you grab him or he grabs you, you are grappling...standing grappling. You better know what to do. Even boxers end up in a clinch (standing grappling) and must be broken up by the referee 100's of time during a match. 
I have witnessed and have training partners with many bar fights and street encounters under their belt. They will tell you that most times they are not alone and neither is the opponent/antagonist. You better  develop your striking skills and try to stay on your feet as long as you can. If it goes to the ground you better have the skills to finish it in seconds and get back up.
I would just like to add this. When you are being taught something, say...as in this case defense against multiple attackers, has the person you are learning from ever been in a fight? against multiple attackers? how many times has he used the suggested technique? successfully? or is it theory or based on compliant training/sparring with training partners? When you are talking about training that may save your life or that of those you love you better avoid the armchair self defense experts.


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## twinkletoes (Aug 20, 2003)

Catch,

I think I may do knee-on belly a little different than you do.  I control the close arm and the neck, which leaves my groin protected.  If i'm striking, I still try to keep it protected.

I'm aware that a skilled grappler can counter the position.  However, I do not plan on getting in a streetfight against multiple skilled grapplers.  If I'm ever in a fight and the guy pulls out a spider guard sweep or reverses a position into an ankle lock, I'm going to stop and ask him to show me that, and where he trains.  I just may make a friend!  

Certainly grappling in a multiple opponent scenario (or even a single attacker on the street) is not plan A.  It's not even in the top few options.  I recognize that.  It's just not sensible.  

Also, I'm referencing an article by Frank Benn.  If you're not familiar with him, he is anything but an armchair specialist.  Anywho, I get most of my multiple assailant training from Roy Harris.  I haven't specifically asked him about this scenario, but maybe I will.

~TT


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## chinkoobake (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *
> I'm aware that a skilled grappler can counter the position.  However, I do not plan on getting in a streetfight against multiple skilled grapplers.  If I'm ever in a fight and the guy pulls out a spider guard sweep or reverses a position into an ankle lock, I'm going to stop and ask him to show me that, and where he trains.  I just may make a friend!
> 
> *



In the ER


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## twinkletoes (Aug 21, 2003)

> In the ER



Um, yeah.  That was sorta tongue-in-cheek there.  I hoped you might notice that, especially given the odds that I'm going to run into another BJJer in a streetfight.  :shrug:   Ah well.  Is anyone really worried about losing to a reverse heelhook _on the street?_ 

~TT


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## MartialArtsGuy (Aug 21, 2003)

I know Systema deals with multiple attackers while you're on the ground, but it's more about evasion and manuevering that actually engaging them. It gives you a fighting chance to get to your feet. Systema's focus is survival.


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## MNKaliGroupRayW (Aug 27, 2003)

I have seen many UFC/Shoot fights that the knee on position was used well. It seems to me that it is not a position that is meant to be held long, but is a staging ground where you pound and harrass your opponent with strikes to see what his reaction is to the fists, elbow, and kicks raining in on him. Depending on what he gives you, you work for the arm, leg, or choke. 

Of course to get in the knee-on position you first need the guy laying on the floor. If this is street, I would probably kick and stomp, trying to get hits in without letting him get his barings, rather than closing....

Ray

www.absolutejkd.com


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## Disco (Aug 27, 2003)

This is in reference to trying to train against multi-attackers. I've been involved with some of those training drills at several different schools. My opinion, there worthless. You can bounce and throw them around all you want and they just get back up and keep coming at you. If and when you must fight more than one, you have to do some serious damage to people to keep them from coming back at you. You just can't practice and do that in training. Grappling can either be standing or ground work. The ground aspect is not practical for the street. If you should fall wrong with additional weight on you, or even no weight, just go to the ground at the wrong angle and you probably hurt yourself. You've already lost the fight. I'm sure some of you guys during training have hit the mats the wrong way. Just imagine if that mat was asphalt or concrete. 

Should you learn some ground tactics? Yes! If for some reason you find yourself on the ground, learn how to get back up post haste. Just MHO. Thanks for letting me share
:asian:


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## chinkoobake (Oct 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> * Grappling can either be standing or ground work. The ground aspect is not practical for the street.  *



This sounds like someone who has never been in a fight on the street


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## pknox (Oct 11, 2003)

As BJJ has already been mentioned, realize that while ground fighting is what the art is known for, there is a self-defense aspect to it as well.  Scenarios like being attacked by a weapon wielding assailant (while unarmed), multiple attackers, and situations that don't advise going to the ground (say in an alley with broken glass, for example) are taught in that section of the curriculum.  Contrary to what some people believe, there are throws taught in BJJ as well, and they are often utilized in these scenarios.  Different instructors place different levels of emphasis on the self defense aspects, but it does exist.  Check out Royce Gracie's book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/104-6376582-3401539?v=glance&s=books

As for ground grappling simply not working on the street, well, that depends.  Obviously, with multiple opponents, holding one in your guard may be foolish (unless you're using him as a shield), and pulling guard (i.e. falling to the ground) might be suicide.  However, being able to breakfall is a valuable skill, and in the event you do fall, it's great to be able to know what you're doing.  A quick armbar, especially with the rather vocal "snap" and resultant screaming that accompanies it once you break the arm in question (when you don't really care whether or not the punk taps, it can actually be easy, and dare I say, enjoyable ) can be accomplished in seconds, and can surely be a detterent to his buddy.  As for standing grappling, it's amazing how effective a judo throw can be when you drop the attacker right onto his head, or how a standing joint lock can be truly nasty when applied to completion.  Realize that while many grapplers are sportsmen, when we are attacked, we often can behave rather unsportsmanlike. :asian:


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## pknox (Oct 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *I'm sure some of you guys during training have hit the mats the wrong way. Just imagine if that mat was asphalt or concrete.
> *



Actually, that's why breakfalling is usually the first thing taught anywhere where throws are executed (like in Judo).  In this way, we minimize the chance of injury if somebody "hits the wrong way."  The idea is to make the other guy do so.  That's exactly why grappling can be so effective.  The average person has not been taught to breakfall, and usually ends up hurting himself when dropped.

As for ground grappling, you are usually on the ground anyway.  If you have fallen while trying to grapple, you obviously were standing to begin with, so that's not ground grappling.  If I'm taken down by someone (let's say a wrestler) and fall on my back, I have learned to keep my head up so as not to bang it on the ground (another applicable skill).  Yes, I may get knicked up by falling on my back, but at least I'm not out cold, like some people without grappling training may very well be.  The beauty of ground grappling is that even on my back, with a guy on top of me, I still have many options with which I can end the altercation quickly.  Most importantly, because I have been in that situation hundreds (maybe thousands) of times, I am less likely to panic, which may very well save my life.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 13, 2003)

Here are my thoughts.

1)  If  you fight multiple attackers who are strong and determined, you are going to get whumped whether you standup and strike or grapple.  The best defense is to escape!

2)  No grappler wants to go to ground with multiple attackers.  However, it is beneficial if you can drop one of your attackers on his head.  If you get taken down, mount-escape technique is even more important with multiple attackers.  

3)  Standup fighter often argue that grappling is ineffective against multiple attackers.  Yet, can they take on two or three skilled, determined, and healthy attackers?  I don't think so.  

4)  As for me, I got attacked by two guys when I was about 18.  One had a knife.  I ESCAPED UNHURT!  You want to know how I defended myself.  I jumped on my bike and pedaled like crazy!  That's how.


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## Cruentus (Oct 13, 2003)

Here is a fun story...

A friend of mine who does the NHB stuff (and who doesn't seem to see the value in training for anything other then the ring) once got into a situation w/ 4 people.

He did what he trained in the ring for; he executed a double leg takedown on the biggest guy, and clinched up with him to try to work some punches and possibly an arm lock or choke. The guy who was taken down just held on to him tight, while his 3 buddies kicked the crap out of him.

Moral: know what you are trained/training for. If your training for the ring, then this is great...you'll be tougher and more conditioned then most martialartists out there. But understand that what you are training for (the ring) is not going to be the same as a "real life" encounter where the terrain might be different, the person(s) may be armed with something, or their might be multiple attackers.

So...learning to grapple is important, as is learning to grapple against multiple attackers. But, don't learn a lesson the hard way like my friend had to. Your grappling strategy WILL change dramatically according to circumstances (terrain, weapons, multiple attackers, lack of 'rules,' etc.). By recognizing your circumstance and adapting accordingly, you'll be able to adequetly defend yourself.


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## MNKaliGroupRayW (Oct 13, 2003)

That same thing happened to me, and I should know better!

I was working at a retail mall in college in '96  and a 16-17 year old HS kid with his three buddies caused me some grief in the parking lot on my way in. Short story is I didn't want to work over some minor 6-8years younger than me after he sucker punched me, so I head locked him and tried to talk him out of further trouble, well he struggled until we both fell to the ground and his three friends decided to tee off on me with their hightops! Luckily I covered and rolled well enough to only get kicked about a half dozen times, before getting up. But I ruined a pair of pants and had bruises for a week. BJJ/NHB does teach good ground cover and mobility if you are seated vs a standing apponent, but It is NOT an advantageous position, let me guarantee that!

Next time I'm sure there's going to be trouble I'll be less gentle until I'm certain of all outcomes.

Ray W


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