# Let me ask this



## JasonASmith (Oct 3, 2006)

Hello all,
I have a question for all of the Kenpo folks...
Why are there so MANY strikes in Kenpo? 
What I mean is this: I have seen numerous videos and been to numerous Kenpo classes in the past, and, to me, the responses to some of the attacks are overkill...I mean, after you've broken the assailants arm, dislocated his shoulder, and shattered his jaw, why do you keep going? Or can all of these moves be seperated and used individually, so you have a repertoire of responses?
Please keep in mind if you answer this post that I am not attempting to provoke anyone, I am merely curious as to the amount of maiming that is included in some of the Kenpo curriculum...
I have a soft spot in my heart for Kenpo, and I have always been curious about this subject...All replies(except derogatory ones) are welcome...


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## Shodan (Oct 3, 2006)

The way I view it is as though the attacker is drug crazed and not reacting like a "normal" person to pain.  This way you have follow up moves to continue with.  We were working on some knife drills recently that, to me, seemed very excessive-- you stab them here, then cut them here, then there, etc, etc, etc!!  We talked about it and this very topic came up.  Someone gave, what I thought, was a good response......and that's, if the person is wearing leather, maybe you aren't getting a lot of those cuts in.  Always good to have a follow-up in mind for when things don't go as planned......

  It does seem like overkill a lot of times though-- I know!!


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## Warrior-Scholar (Oct 3, 2006)

I guess the simple response would be this:
What would you do if your first punch and kick combination missed or failed?  Follow up with another one?  Well, Kenpo is providing the practitioner with options.  It also builds rapid fire response into your neuromuscular system.  That said, we sometimes practice techniques with more gusto than usual to discern various responses.  Often times we only get about 1/3 of the way through the actual tech as taught before some one is out of the picture so to speak.  I think this is a good thing!


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## Inverse Falcon (Oct 4, 2006)

Two more things to add: any of these strikes can become blocks when necessary, so in reality you may only get in a few strikes between multiple interspersed blocks.  

Secondly, not all of these strikes have to be on the same opponent.  One of our normal Kenpo drills was to perform forms in a freestyle sparring situation, allowing you to defend against and retaliate against multiple circling opponents.  Depending on proximity and footwork, you could easily split some of those "overkill" combinations between several people.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 4, 2006)

An aspiring BB Kenpoist (who was also a BB Shotokan Karate) told me that he saw the "...genius of Ed Parker's methods... that he (Parker) saw the human body of the attacker/opponent as a paper-clip, that if you kept bending the clip (back and forth) that eventually it'll break..." It made sense because that's the ultimate goal in any (real) fight to incapacitate your opponent/attacker so that you can get away... basically repeatedly striking them until you break them. 

I dunno if that helps with the question.


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## KenpoDave (Oct 4, 2006)

Often, the technique continues to allow you to practice what movements are available from that position.  Often, a technique that teaches a break can be applied as a lock, which may necessitate a continuation of movment.

The techniques are teaching tools, not written in stone.


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## Shotochem (Oct 4, 2006)

Hi Jason,

     In a selfdefense situation there is no such thing as overkill.  If the attacker is much larger and stronger than you he may require more of a beating for you to take him out and get away.  If he goes down in 2 shots instead of 6 or 7 all the better I'm outta there.

    I'm finding Kempo to be beautifully brutal.  My first reaction after switching to Kempo from Shotokan was ooooooh!!!! that's gonna hurt!!!!!

    It really is the same with most MA.  The longer you train in Shotokan the more nasty and brutal you techniques will be and as you advance so will your applications and the use of them.

   A well trained advanced student in any MA IMO, is pure poetry in motion.


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## MJS (Oct 4, 2006)

I'm in agreement with everything that was said.  We can't forget about that "What if" phase.  There must be some use to those extensions as well. 



> The techniques are teaching tools, not written in stone.


 
Exactly!

Mike


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 4, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Hello all,
> I have a question for all of the Kenpo folks...
> Why are there so MANY strikes in Kenpo?
> What I mean is this: I have seen numerous videos and been to numerous Kenpo classes in the past, and, to me, the responses to some of the attacks are overkill...I mean, after you've broken the assailants arm, dislocated his shoulder, and shattered his jaw, why do you keep going? _*Or can all of these moves be seperated and used individually, so you have a repertoire of responses?*_
> ...


 
Simply put, you answered your own question _*here*_


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## evenflow1121 (Oct 4, 2006)

A lot of those long techniques in kenpo are incorporations or extensions to basic techniques you learn in earlier belts.  My take on it, is, the techniques form a highway to teach you what you can do in a fight, and to give you an idea of how strikes should be executed, you probably will never complete a long kenpo technique in a fight, probably is the key anything is possible.


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## Ping898 (Oct 4, 2006)

I was always taught that the techniques at times had so many moves for all the reasons stated above, but that also cause in real life you may do 10 strikes, but only 3 of them will land with any impact because of the opponent's motion and blocks.  So in the end, it isn't overkill cause only a few had any effect, and that if the one's that have effect are the first couple and your opponent is out and no longer a threat, then you stop, else you keep going until he/she is no longer a threat.


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## Monadnock (Oct 4, 2006)

A friend of mine used to say... "Hey, _he_ started it."


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## phoenix (Oct 4, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Hello all,
> I have a question for all of the Kenpo folks...
> Why are there so MANY strikes in Kenpo?
> What I mean is this: I have seen numerous videos and been to numerous Kenpo classes in the past, and, to me, the responses to some of the attacks are overkill...I mean, after you've broken the assailants arm, dislocated his shoulder, and shattered his jaw, why do you keep going?


 
My response to this is that there are many reasons, a primary one in my mind is multiple attackers.  Say there are 3 attackers, rather than one, if you can expand the circle/range of your single technique, you now have multiple strikes directed towards multiple attackers, so all the damage you are doing may not be directed at one person.

Additionally, to reinforce (in my opinion) one of the other primary reasons is that as has been stated, in ANY altercation, it will not go as planned, and you will not hit every strike and every target.  Kenpo provides us with continual follow-up attacks so that we don't do 2 or 3 strikes and then say "uhm, what do I do now?".  

My favorite analogy (don't remember where I heard it) was that if your opponent pulls a six-shooter, and takes a shot at you, and you pull your automatic M-16 and start gunning at him, he's no longer thinking of shooting back at you with his six-shooter.  He's more worried about dodging YOUR bullets.  

Hope that helps, that's at least some of my perspective on it.

Sean


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## JasonASmith (Oct 4, 2006)

Thanks for all of the replies...


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## Danjo (Oct 4, 2006)

Also, the "One Punch Kill" stuff might work for someone like me (5'10" 220 lbs and can bench press 300 lbs), it won't work for everyone. A .44 Magnum will probably not require more than one shot to completely deal with an enemy. A .25 caliber may well take more than one shot. If all Kenpoists were .44 magnums, it probably wouldn't have evolved the way it did.


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## Carol (Oct 4, 2006)

A few reasons that I can see...

"To feel is to believe," said Mr. Parker.  I don't know many guys that really know what it feels like for a female to go up against a male that is significantly larger than she is.  In addition to the disadvantages of physics, there is also a noticeable differentiation in strength and musculature.  We gals just aren't built like you guys are.

Also in a real-life situation, chances are one will not be attacked on a flat floor or mat, in a gi, with a closely matched training partner.   One may have street cracks, curbs, pot holes, gravel, steps that interfer with execution.  One may be in a mental state (tired, stressed, had a cold one with friends) that interferes with execution.  

The skill of the student may vary.  Perhaps if I get to 3rd black I'll be one helluva good Kenpoist.  That's all good, but I may need my Kenpo before I'm 3rd black.  If I do, I will fight like someone that isn't that good at Kenpo.  Because.....I'm not that good at Kenpo.  

Knife fights have real-life variables to them.  The statutory blade limit in the city of Boston, for example, is 2.5 inches.   My every day carry (unless I'm going in to Boston) is a 3" folder that I can conceal easily in my jeans pocket and move around without it poking me in the thigh.  I swap this out with a 2.5" folder if I have to go in to the city.   Neither of these look like the 7" fixed aluminum trainer that I used to practice techs.  I live in New England.  It gets cold in New England.  People wear heavy coats when it gets cold.  A 2.5" folder vs. heavy coat...judge for yourself how effective that is.  

We're all human, and there are a lot of variables to being human.  A human may be attacked in circumstances that are not ideal for self-defense.  Kenpo acounts for that.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2006)

Here is a thought:  People often like to say that kenpo techniques have a lot of followup strikes because it plans for variables that affect the effectiveness of the strikes, and it plans for things going wrong.  By automatically following up with all these strikes, one trains to just keep going until you know the other guy is down.

This is faulty logic.

Say a tech has a whole bunch of followups, and the tech could be mapped at each move, starting with the evasion step, the block, and the dozen or so followup strikes.  Let's label each of these as points A thru L, A being the evasion step, B being the block, and C thru L being the followups.

If all these followups plan for things going wrong, then you would have to stop where things went wrong and replan your counters.  If you go wrong at point B, but try to continue with points C thru L, you lose.  You didn't even get the block to work, and you got hit.  Point C needs to be something completely different, to fix this fact.  The rest of the original technique is thrown out the window. 

So to see this preplanned sequence as planning for things going wrong, I think is not accurate.  If you go all the way thru point L, you are planning on everything going right.  Because each point launches from the prior point, and you can't effectively launch the next point unless the prior point was successful.  Strike E won't work if Strike D didn't work.  And if everything goes right, you don't need all the extra strikes.  It's an error in the logic behind planning these techniques.

Personally, I think the techs are a good method to teach ideas on how to deal with an attack.  But I think it is unrealistic to plan further than 2-3 counterstrikes out.  Beyond that, you just cannot predict how things will work or the effect it will have on the attacker, and you need to learn to be spontaneously creative once you reach this stage.  An attack does not work based on a formula, and I think a lot of the longer kenpo techs are very formulaic.


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## kosho (Oct 5, 2006)

Hi,
    The highest level of Kempo is no body contact.  when you can not  keep to this  than you respond with what the attackers is doing.  When the area is open  fire away  and  hit. the body will respond  to the hits causeing more openings to come into play. until the person is down  and really hurt. at that point  and only  when the seen is SAFE  should you stop the follow up.  with kempo  the folding  arts  and controlling  arts blend in to war  arts (HITTING.)  At  any time you  can stop  one thing  with  kempo  you truly  learn  to  controll  your  self  and others..  this goes for all kempo  people.. all styles  and systems  of  kempo...
also  when hitting  with  center  line  striking in kempo the power  and pain delivered to the attacker  is inteance.
 steve


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## exile (Oct 5, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> Personally, I think the techs are a good method to teach ideas on how to deal with an attack.  But I think it is unrealistic to plan further than 2-3 counterstrikes out.  Beyond that, you just cannot predict how things will work or the effect it will have on the attacker, and you need to learn to be spontaneously creative once you reach this stage.  An attack does not work based on a formula, and I think a lot of the longer kenpo techs are very formulaic.



FC---this is very interesting and reminds me of what a guy I knew at university who was a ranked International Master in chess once told me, in a conversation which turned to people's conception of grandmasters being able to see 10 moves ahead or more. What he said was, _no one_ does that unless there's a mating situation set up where every single response to an attack is forced. Otherwise, he said, the average `great' chess player doesn't try to see more than a few moves ahead; but what differentiates the great player from the ordinary woodpusher is a deep intuition about how any given move sends ripples through the alignment of forces currently on the board. It sounds very similar to your point here...


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## Flying Crane (Oct 5, 2006)

exile said:


> FC---this is very interesting and reminds me of what a guy I knew at university who was a ranked International Master in chess once told me, in a conversation which turned to people's conception of grandmasters being able to see 10 moves ahead or more. What he said was, _no one_ does that unless there's a mating situation set up where every single response to an attack is forced. Otherwise, he said, the average `great' chess player doesn't try to see more than a few moves ahead; but what differentiates the great player from the ordinary woodpusher is a deep intuition about how any given move sends ripples through the alignment of forces currently on the board. It sounds very similar to your point here...


 

Good analogy.  Very interesting.  I often wished I had a deep understanding of chess, but alas, I am an ordinary woodpusher...


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## Danjo (Oct 5, 2006)

exile said:


> FC---this is very interesting and reminds me of what a guy I knew at university who was a ranked International Master in chess once told me, in a conversation which turned to people's conception of grandmasters being able to see 10 moves ahead or more. What he said was, _no one_ does that unless there's a mating situation set up where every single response to an attack is forced. Otherwise, he said, the average `great' chess player doesn't try to see more than a few moves ahead; but what differentiates the great player from the ordinary woodpusher is a deep intuition about how any given move sends ripples through the alignment of forces currently on the board. It sounds very similar to your point here...


 
Holy Moley, that was a good response.


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## exile (Oct 5, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> Good analogy.  Very interesting.  I often wished I had a deep understanding of chess, but alas, I am an ordinary woodpusher...



Me too, and years of playing never really let me improve past a certain point. Like others, I had the misimpression that guys like this chap were gifted with an incredible ability to store all kinds of branching possibilities in their heads. But he was very emphatic that he didn't do that and except where it was clear there were no branches except the one (the longed for long forced mate that you call out without actually touching the pieces, in your fantasies), he _couldn't_ do it. What he could do was something that he couldn't explain, and that forever separates guys like him from the rest of us. 

I wonder if the really great MAists---not just kenpoists but in all the arts---are the ones who have a physical analogue of my friend's cerebral gift: they have a sense of what to go after, what will absolutely minimize the response space of their opponent, such that even if the latter evades a technique, they're still in a box of some kind that sets up the MAist's next moves---moves that the kenpoist can `see' by virtue of his or her training and innate gift for the art---and so on, till by convergence the attacker is on the ground. If that kind of physical intuition is present, then just being able to see a few techniques ahead would be enough. This is all purely speculation---kenpo isn't my art, though I love to watch it and have the greatest respect for it...


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## HKphooey (Oct 5, 2006)

exile said:


> Me too, and years of playing never really let me improve past a certain point. Like others, I had the misimpression that guys like this chap were gifted with an incredible ability to store all kinds of branching possibilities in their heads. But he was very emphatic that he didn't do that and except where it was clear there were no branches except the one (the longed for long forced mate that you call out without actually touching the pieces, in your fantasies), he _couldn't_ do it. What he could do was something that he couldn't explain, and that forever separates guys like him from the rest of us.
> 
> I wonder if the really great MAists---not just kenpoists but in all the arts---are the ones who have a physical analogue of my friend's cerebral gift: they have a sense of what to go after, what will absolutely minimize the response space of their opponent, such that even if the latter evades a technique, they're still in a box of some kind that sets up the MAist's next moves---moves that the kenpoist can `see' by virtue of his or her training and innate gift for the art---and so on, till by convergence the attacker is on the ground. If that kind of physical intuition is present, then just being able to see a few techniques ahead would be enough. This is all purely speculation---kenpo isn't my art, though I love to watch it and have the greatest respect for it...


 
First, great post!

Second,
This is were the "artist/painter" analogy in martial arts comes into play.  A great artist sees the end product before they even begin to paint.  Along the way, things may change, or the he/she makes a mistake; but his/her skill to adapt or correct his/her mistakes/changes are what makes them great.  

Kenpo has one nice palate of colors!  

There was another thread a while back about "creative minds" or "right minded" in th martial arts and are they better at picking things up.  I think there is a definite connection.  Your creativity helps you see things play out.

As some have mentioned, the techniques are designed to engrain movements and make them part of our everyday motor skills.


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## exile (Oct 5, 2006)

HKphooey said:


> First, great post!



Thanks HKphooey (and Danjo and Flying Crane) for your kind words---just one of those cases where something someone says drags out of your memory some really striking parallel that you haven't thought about for years---decades, really...



HKphooey said:


> Second,
> This is were the "artist/painter" analogy in martial arts comes into play.  A great artist sees the end product before they even begin to paint.  Along the way, things may change, or the he/she makes a mistake; but his/her skill to adapt or correct his/her mistakes/changes are what makes them great.
> 
> That it's exactly. I remember reading an essay on prodigies in music, mathematics and chess once, in which the author noted that creativity in these areas---what distinguishes the greater from the lesser practitioners---is their ability to see define their art in terms of formal problems that can be solved with the resources at hand. It's almost never conscious, and it demands a grasp of the relationships among the parts of the system that most mortals don't get to. I think MAists are in the same position---there is a space of possibilities which their opponent is moving in and the problem to be solved is to force that movement into a smaller and smaller space until the opponent is immobilized (i.e., they can do nothing but comply with the MAist's controlling moves). I've noticed that kenpoists sometimes talk in these terms and I think it's a very good way of seeing the MAs generally.
> ...


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## JasonASmith (Oct 5, 2006)

Holy crap, this thread got philosophical quick!
That's the nature of Kenpo though, isn't it?
Great responses!


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## exile (Oct 5, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Holy crap, this thread got philosophical quick!


:wink1: 


JasonASmith said:


> That's the nature of Kenpo though, isn't it?



I think it's just the fact that kenpo is so attractive an art, and hangs together in certain kind of way when it's done well which I find difficult to explain. It's not that other MAs aren't also beautiful to watch when performed by a master, but kenpo... well, I was going to say it makes violence seem almost lyrical, but that would be kind of going over the top, eh?  Still, that's how it strikes me, when it's done really well...


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## Pacificshore (Oct 5, 2006)

Shotochem said:


> A well trained advanced student in any MA IMO, is pure poetry in motion.


I like that


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## hongkongfooey (Oct 6, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Or can all of these moves be seperated and used individually, so you have a repertoire of responses?


 

You had the answer the whole time.


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## exile (Oct 6, 2006)

hongkongfooey said:


> _Or can all of these moves be seperated and used individually, so you have a repertoire of responses_
> 
> You had the answer the whole time.



JAS---HKph's right on target here. You don't even have to go as far as the very elaborate forms in kenpo. Taekwondo probably has the most compact (= compressed) forms of all the various karate-based MAs, but even here, you can break them up into separate sequences, each of which corresponds to a separate defense (= counterattack) scenario. In any given 20 move TKD form, like the early Palgwes, you probably have four or five separate scenarios implicit in the forms. As things start getting longer, the number of scenarios goes way up. The very first of the forms we teach in my dojang, Kicho Il Jang, begins with a down block in front stance followed by a straight lunge punch in a new front stance, then a 180 turn with a mirror image of the first two moves. Those first four sequences can be given a very plausible interpretation as a devastating counter to a grab (or possibly a punch) consisting of a wrist lock becoming an arm lock becoming a strike to the throat (with maybe an elbow strike setting up the attack on the throat), or strike to a vital spot in the arm, or an armbar forcing a throw, followed by a strike to the throat, followed by a hard punch to the base of the skull, followed by a throw across the defender's body  (that 180 degree `turn'), followed by another punch to the base of the skull. Probably unnecessary, that last bit, because at this point the attacker is probably dead, and at best is not feeling too good. That's four moves out of a twenty move hyung. And they get a good deal longer... and that's _ short_ compared with the kenpo forms. 

Part of what you would have learned in the old days in Okinawa (and China before that, I guess) would be how to `parse' the forms into modular defensive scenarios, giving you, in any one form, a huge repertoire of techniques for defending against just about any attack under the sun. Funakoshi studies the Naihanchi kata exclusively for nine years. When you see all the possibilities that the kata contain, it's not that surprising, eh?


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## hongkongfooey (Oct 6, 2006)

People get too hung up on performing Kenpo techniques as a set in stone way to deal with an attack, ignoring the real reason they are in the system in the first place, to teach concepts and principles.


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## exile (Oct 6, 2006)

hongkongfooey said:


> People get too hung up on performing Kenpo techniques as a set in stone way to deal with an attack, ignoring the real reason they are in the system in the first place, to teach concepts and principles.



In TKD, and maybe karate too, that doesn't happen, because it's so abundantly clear that the hyungs/kata aren't really ready-made set-pieces to carry out literally in case of an attack, but are catalogues of (mostly concealed) fighting techniques, intended to be understood, trained and stored in muscle memory until such time as needed. A kiss may be just a kiss and a sigh just a sigh, but a `rising block' is definitely not a rising _block_. So no one goes around learning hyungs/kata as literal techniques to apply off-the-shelf in response to an assailant. But it sounds, from what you're saying here, that the kenpo technique drills are not like TKD/karate forms. They _are_ meant to be taken literally and their bunkai are not concealed. Is this right, HKph? A elbow strike will not be concealed within the chambering phase of a down block but will be taught upfront as an elbow strike, followed by a knife-edge strike to the throat with the same arm, all of it transparent and meant to be taken literally? Is that the way kenpo technique drills work?


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## hongkongfooey (Oct 7, 2006)

exile said:


> In TKD, and maybe karate too, that doesn't happen, because it's so abundantly clear that the hyungs/kata aren't really ready-made set-pieces to carry out literally in case of an attack, but are catalogues of (mostly concealed) fighting techniques, intended to be understood, trained and stored in muscle memory until such time as needed. A kiss may be just a kiss and a sigh just a sigh, but a `rising block' is definitely not a rising _block_. So no one goes around learning hyungs/kata as literal techniques to apply off-the-shelf in response to an assailant. But it sounds, from what you're saying here, that the kenpo technique drills are not like TKD/karate forms. They _are_ meant to be taken literally and their bunkai are not concealed. Is this right, HKph? A elbow strike will not be concealed within the chambering phase of a down block but will be taught upfront as an elbow strike, followed by a knife-edge strike to the throat with the same arm, all of it transparent and meant to be taken literally? Is that the way kenpo technique drills work?


 

Yes and no. What I meant by set in stone is that many people never explore what is actually contained in the technique lesson, they never get past the ideal phase. The techniques are loaded with information, some obvious, some not so obvious. 

In Parker's Kenpo you have 3 phases of learning techniques.
Ideal
What If
Spontaneous

In the ideal phase you learn the base techniques, as they are written to introduce a principle or concept.

In the what if phase, you add in different variables in the scenario. You start to resist and check each other off, in the execution of the techniques. Principle are reinforced and expanded on. The Kenpoist should start to formulate defense on the fly, not rely on a technique as written.

In the spontaneous phase you are adding and deleting, borrowing, rearranging, prefixing, and suffixing movements contained in the ideal techniques. Defense is spontaneous. The movements look nothing like the written techniques. In this phase the principle and concepts are ingrained, and well understood. This is the level that a Kenpoist should strive to be at. 

It's funny. Sometimes people will watch others in a video, defend against an attack, with an on the fly sequence. The outcry of "That's not Kenpo!" "He didn't do Delayed Sword for that lapel grab!" These people missed the forest for the trees.

I'll probably be flambeed for my opinion, but that's ok. I have good teachers, I'll be OK.


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## Carol (Oct 7, 2006)

hongkongfooey said:


> Yes and no. What I meant by set in stone is that many people never explore what is actually contained in the technique lesson, they never get past the ideal phase. The techniques are loaded with information, some obvious, some not so obvious.
> 
> In Parker's Kenpo you have 3 phases of learning techniques.
> Ideal
> ...


 
How DARE you pay attention in class!!


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## hongkongfooey (Oct 7, 2006)

It's hard not to pay attention when it literally gets pounded into you!


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## exile (Oct 7, 2006)

Hey HKf, thanks for getting back to me---this is an aspect of kenpo I'm really quite curious about.



hongkongfooey said:


> Yes and no. What I meant by set in stone is that many people never explore what is actually contained in the technique lesson, they never get past the ideal phase. The techniques are loaded with information, some obvious, some not so obvious.
> 
> In Parker's Kenpo you have 3 phases of learning techniques.
> Ideal
> ...



OK, I think I see what's going on. In the case of karate/TKD, you're basically told something by the kata/hyung sequence description which _isn't_ the true combat application and was never intended to be, and you have to dig around to see what actual application that move has---`hey wait, this 180 turn with a down block is actually a thow (the turn) taking advantage of a hair grab/head hook (the `down block'), using hip leverage to project the (already pretty battered) attacker forward and down using the forward and down `down block'.'  There's not a single actual block in the whole sequence.  In kenpo, you won't be forced to thrash through the deceptive labelling, but what you're saying is, you still can't take the form literally, because it's really just the bare-bones general idea of the technique, and you're supposed to develop alternatives at every point in case things go sideways, so that you always have a technique at your fingers to apply that can implement the _intent_ of the scenario, even if the `official' move isn't doable at that point. The problem for you isn't that the technique has been deliberately mislabelled, but that you can't depend on being able to use it , and so you have to go in with backup techniques. Something like that? This latter ideas would also hold in the various karates, but in addition, before you can even start to develop versatility along the lines you're talking about for kenpo forms, you have to figure out what the true intent of the form really was. 




hongkongfooey said:


> It's funny. Sometimes people will watch others in a video, defend against an attack, with an on the fly sequence. The outcry of "That's not Kenpo!" "He didn't do Delayed Sword for that lapel grab!" These people missed the forest for the trees.
> 
> I'll probably be flambeed for my opinion, but that's ok. I have good teachers, I'll be OK.



I appreciate your going out on a limb to anwer my query, HKf---hat you say makes sense. There are quite a few times when I wish the karate-type systems had a bit of the same straightforwardness to their form interpretation that kenpo seems to have ...


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## IWishToLearn (Oct 8, 2006)

I've got a similar-yet-different feeling about kenpo forms - as I'm not Parker kenpo, but an offshoot thereof under GM's Sullivan & Le Roux. We've got exactly three forms and one staff set in the entire system - and the staff set is optional. The first blocking form is the first four blocks, what would be done in the original Ed Parker blocking set in a horse stance, done in a neutral bow, and moving around with step throughs and covers. The second form is a complete blocking set done in a neutral bow. The third, is the Master Form - which takes all 55 base IKCA techniques and strings them together into one 58 man mass attack.

Got a little off topic, but hey - it's 3AM and I haven't been to sleep since 6:45 yesterday .

Kenpo techniques and katas have a visible, demonstratable purpose from the get-go. We teach forms and techniques to build principles and concepts, and to reinforce existing ones. As to whether or not there are hidden moves - I don't care what you're doing - be it keyboard-fu, mouth-off-do, or any style of martial arts you want to insert here, you can ALWAYS take base moves and find other uses for them. People always call these alternate uses "hidden moves" as a way of either reserving knowledge - or bsing someone into thinking you know more than you let on. I make no claims to understand 1/1000 of what my teachers know - but I like to feel that since I have a cadre of students that seems to be growing - and the only reason I have them is they bugged me for 2 years to teach them - I must have something of value to teach. I don't teach anything as "hidden" moves. I teach them as alternate or add-on moves once you understand a base technique or form. Every one of my students is responsible and accountable at any time to pull out material from white belt all the way up to their present belt material, no matter what level that is. Often times just to prove the point that you can never extract enough information out of the basics - I'll take a raw noobie who just barely has gotten the idea how to move correctly down - and use them for a demonstration of a basic principle or concept and put a completely different spin on it/peel off another layer of extra material and my advanced students all get the "monkey doing a crossword puzzle" look on their faces. It's the most rewarding feeling to help someone learn something effective.

Have fun


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## born_fighting (Oct 8, 2006)

I dont think that it's over kill.. i think it teaches what can be done. Thake Leap of death(Tracy kenpo) in wich you deflect his punch break his arm smash his testicles and rip him down to the ground onto his belly. then jump up and smush his kidneys with your heals then bounce his head off the grond, snap his neck backwards then break his neck, break his nose smash the head off the ground again leap up and stomp on his head.. long list of hits.. practicaly a mini kata right. But what it did was teach you principals for that situation, you rip a guy onto his belly you now have a hundreed things you could do and can combine them... and not just that besides the practical aspect... it just looks so cool..


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## exile (Oct 8, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:


> As to whether or not there are hidden moves - I don't care what you're doing - be it keyboard-fu, mouth-off-do, or any style of martial arts you want to insert here, you can ALWAYS take base moves and find other uses for them. People always call these alternate uses "hidden moves" as a way of either reserving knowledge - or bsing someone into thinking you know more than you let on. I make no claims to understand 1/1000 of what my teachers know - but I like to feel that since I have a cadre of students that seems to be growing - and the only reason I have them is they bugged me for 2 years to teach them - I must have something of value to teach. I don't teach anything as "hidden" moves. I teach them as alternate or add-on moves once you understand a base technique or form.



The problem with TKD hyungs and karate kata, compared w/kenpo, is that in most cases a `literal' application of the form makes no sense combatively. You have a down block, followed by a straight punch---then you turn away from the attacker who was the target of the straight punch and you do the same thing on the other side, leaving the guy you probably didn't take out with the straight punch now standing behind you, maybe nursing his ribs if he was dumb enough to stand there and allow you to hit him midbody. And now you go and turn to face the mythical second assailant... what is the guy behind you going to do to you when you act as though he weren't there, eh? :uhyeah:  Rick Clark in his book _Seventy-five Down Blocks_ and Iain Abernethy in _Bunkai-jutsu_ give some beautify examples of how various karate kata, taken literally, make next to no sense as combat techniques. It's not so much a question of possible alternatives or extensions; there _have_ to be alternatives, because the obvious bunkai for these moves, the one built into the textbook descriptions, are unworkable (this is the main reason why so many people complain about kata and think that MAs don't need them). My impression is that in Kenpo, that's not true---none of the `literal' applications are obscured (the difference between a mislabelled move and a `hidden' move is that in the case of the latter, you're positing a combat technique that doesn't appear anywhere in the kata---an interposed ear slap, say---to force compliance with the next overt technique in the kata. A mislabelled move is explicit there, present in the sequence, but given a deceptive description: a wrist-grab/arm-lock is disguised as a chamber-retraction/rising-arm-chamber to start a down block). With kata/hyungs, if you did just what the kata told you, you'd be dead in the first half minute, because the literal moves depend on the attacker doing things that no attacker is going to in combat. It's only when you get to the actual intended moves that your actions are plausible, because with the latter, what you do forces the attacker's response and sets up your next strike like a forced mate in chess. 



IWishToLearn said:


> Every one of my students is responsible and accountable at any time to pull out material from white belt all the way up to their present belt material, no matter what level that is. Often times just to prove the point that you can never extract enough information out of the basics - I'll take a raw noobie who just barely has gotten the idea how to move correctly down - and use them for a demonstration of a basic principle or concept and put a completely different spin on it/peel off another layer of extra material and my advanced students all get the "monkey doing a crossword puzzle" look on their faces. It's the most rewarding feeling to help someone learn something effective.
> Have fun



I think the teaching technique of saying `OK, here's a move, what can you do with it?'---making it a problem to be solved---is about the best there is for getting people to understand how to use the resources of the fighting system effectively---I mean, that's how people learn anything---they solve real problems using the system, whatever branch of knowledge it is, as a tool. Making students work out applications on the fly is really the way they're going finally _see_ what it is they've been learning.  Sounds to me like your students are getting a very good education!


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