# Is there "KATA"S in JKD?



## still learning

Hello, NOT sure if this has been ask before? ....Did Bruce Lee believe in teaching Kata's?

Does Dan Insanto believe in Kata's too?

Is there "Kata's"  in JKD?

and if NOT why? .............Aloha


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## simplicity

No there is no Kata's in JKD.....Bruce Lee didn't believe in prearragement movement...




Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney


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## Shawn

Jun Fan Gung Fu includes a few forms - like the Wooden Dummy and Si Lum Tao, but in general most JKD schools don't bother with forms.  I believe you can learn the forms at the Inosanto Academy, but remember Guro Dan mentioning something about most of his guys not being interested.

For myself, I enjoy doing forms - and enjoyment is reason enough.  I think Si Lum Tao can help new students with correct elbow placement.

The forms argument (pro/con) is a long standing one.

Bruce may have moved away from forms practice but they were a part of his journey.

Shawn


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## still learning

Shawn said:


> Jun Fan Gung Fu includes a few forms - like the Wooden Dummy and Si Lum Tao, but in general most JKD schools don't bother with forms. I believe you can learn the forms at the Inosanto Academy, but remember Guro Dan mentioning something about most of his guys not being interested.
> 
> For myself, I enjoy doing forms - and enjoyment is reason enough. I think Si Lum Tao can help new students with correct elbow placement.
> 
> The forms argument (pro/con) is a long standing one.
> 
> Bruce may have moved away from forms practice but they were a part of his journey.
> 
> Shawn


 
Hello, "Thank-you" .....MY Thoughts's :Forms or Kata's that involves contact ...seems to gives more real feelings and reactions on the body and mind like training on the Woodon dummy and Si Lum Tao.

Bruce Lee view on Kata? .....as well as the many others who feel this way will come to light!  Contact training is one of the faster ways for learning the martial arts

Last night I was teaching kids to block ...first we practice just the forms.....than the stick was use.......totally different reactions...many of the kids didn't block like the forms, many were startle when a real weapon was present....had to re-teach them again.............Aloha


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## Primal Kuen

That's crazy to hear another art performing the Si Lum Tau form...but I guess it makes sense, with Bruce's WC background. I wonder if he changed it at all....


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## terryl965

still learning said:


> Hello, "Thank-you" .....MY Thoughts's :Forms or Kata's that involves contact ...seems to gives more real feelings and reactions on the body and mind like training on the Woodon dummy and Si Lum Tao.
> 
> Bruce Lee view on Kata? .....as well as the many others who feel this way will come to light! Contact training is one of the faster ways for learning the martial arts
> 
> Last night I was teaching kids to block ...first we practice just the forms.....than the stick was use.......totally different reactions...many of the kids didn't block like the forms, many were startle when a real weapon was present....had to re-teach them again.............Aloha


 

I do not understand this comit if you teach the block correctly it dhould not matter if it is a punch, kick or stick, the block is still a block.

And to answer your question no Bruce Lee tought no forms, to any of his students but that does not mean he did not learn any before he was on his own.


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## still learning

terryl965 said:


> I do not understand this comit if you teach the block correctly it dhould not matter if it is a punch, kick or stick, the block is still a block.
> 
> And to answer your question no Bruce Lee tought no forms, to any of his students but that does not mean he did not learn any before he was on his own.


 
Hello, The kids are under 10 years old.  It is easy to teach to raise their arms for blocks.

Just that when we added a stick to block? their minds saw the stick and they where more focus on not getting hit...than blocking.....

Try for yourself? .....just practiceing blocking ? ..now  against an attacker.....ajustments must be made?  (against a stick/bat) you will want to block the arm.........try it!  at full speed too! ....Aloha

PS: Bruce Lee learn forms early because his Sensi taught forms...and "Bruce" just follow....until one day he realize to himself...that Kata's was not useful for his training.

Kinda like: that is the way I learn it...and that is how I teach it today....NO questions...just following the past ways...


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## still learning

Hello,  When you practice forms? ..Kata's? ....it has a purpose....?

When fightng for real or training at full speed...anything goes...NO rules...those forms and kata's are useless.

The way you train is the way you will fight.....Ever see people fight like a Kata? ...and move like a Kata? ...on the streets? ....most likely NOT!

That is why other sports  NEVER uses Kata's like training.  Remember Practicing , training is NOT Kata! ..........Aloha


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## terryl965

still learning said:


> Hello, The kids are under 10 years old. It is easy to teach to raise their arms for blocks.
> 
> Just that when we added a stick to block? their minds saw the stick and they where more focus on not getting hit...than blocking.....
> 
> Try for yourself? .....just practiceing blocking ? ..now against an attacker.....ajustments must be made? (against a stick/bat) you will want to block the arm.........try it! at full speed too! ....Aloha
> 
> PS: Bruce Lee learn forms early because his Sensi taught forms...and "Bruce" just follow....until one day he realize to himself...that Kata's was not useful for his training.
> 
> Kinda like: that is the way I learn it...and that is how I teach it today....NO questions...just following the past ways...


 

I also teach childern and we do not have these problems when it comes to blocks maybe it is the way it is being tought to them. We always tell them and show them with the rubber short stick what we are talking about when we are teaching. Maybe you should invest in them and also those rubber chucks, they still will string but it makes them a ware od how to block with an instrument coming at them.

As far as Bruce Lee until he left his instructor he was doing poomsae or Kata's the way of that instructor, to my knowledge he never said they was worthless just not practicle in the system he was teaching. Aloha. Remember you can only truely get value out of something that you beleived to have value in.


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## terryl965

still learning said:


> Hello, When you practice forms? ..Kata's? ....it has a purpose....?
> 
> When fightng for real or training at full speed...anything goes...NO rules...those forms and kata's are useless.
> 
> The way you train is the way you will fight.....Ever see people fight like a Kata? ...and move like a Kata? ...on the streets? ....most likely NOT!
> 
> That is why other sports NEVER uses Kata's like training. Remember Practicing , training is NOT Kata! ..........Aloha


 
To you they are worthless to other it is a way of practice, I have been involved in Martial Arts for over forty years and have found them to be useful. Each there own. have a wonderful day. Aloha.


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## MJS

Didn't we cover kata in this thread?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55412


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## exile

still learning said:


> Hello,  When you practice forms? ..Kata's? ....it has a purpose....?
> 
> When fightng for real or training at full speed...anything goes...NO rules...those forms and kata's are useless.
> 
> The way you train is the way you will fight.....Ever see people fight like a Kata? ...and move like a Kata? ...on the streets? ....most likely NOT!
> 
> That is why other sports  NEVER uses Kata's like training.  Remember Practicing , training is NOT Kata! ..........Aloha



Migod... people have spent hours' worth of posting time explaining to you that kata training contains techniques to be used `full speed'; that you train the content of the kata, not the performance of the kata, that a kata is a compilation of three to five separate defensive scenarios, any one of which can be brutally effective if executed with efficiency and dispatch, and that other sports do _PLENTY_ of what, in the karate-based arts, are called kata... and give you references to a huge literature on the combat application of kata... and you then post something like this suggesting that none of it, not one little bit, has sunk in. I'm staggered. Not one little bit of all the detailed responses to the series of misunderstandings I've cited above has registered...

Doesn't it begin to seem strange to you, still_learning, that every time you post things like the sequence of sentence fragments in the above post, you get a whole barrage of responses from people in the arts pointing out to you in detail where you're mistaken in your view of kata? Are you hoping that if you repeat these claims and statements long enough, sheer repetition will convince us of their truth? If so, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed. All you are succeeding in doing is advertising the fact that either you do not read the detailed replies you get, or you do not assimilate the information those replies contain. The impression that gets communicated is that it's a waste of time responding to you&#8212;just as it's a waste of time responding to a tape-player repeating on a loop the message that the earth is flat, because in neither case can any kind of response make a difference.


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## still learning

exile said:


> Migod... people have spent hours' worth of posting time explaining to you that kata training contains techniques to be used `full speed'; that you train the content of the kata, not the performance of the kata, that a kata is a compilation of three to five separate defensive scenarios, any one of which can be brutally effective if executed with efficiency and dispatch, and that other sports do _PLENTY_ of what, in the karate-based arts, are called kata... and give you references to a huge literature on the combat application of kata... and you then post something like this suggesting that none of it, not one little bit, has sunk in. I'm staggered. Not one little bit of all the detailed responses to the series of misunderstandings I've cited above has registered...
> 
> Doesn't it begin to seem strange to you, still_learning, that every time you post things like the sequence of sentence fragments in the above post, you get a whole barrage of responses from people in the arts pointing out to you in detail where you're mistaken in your view of kata? Are you hoping that if you repeat these claims and statements long enough, sheer repetition will convince us of their truth? If so, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed. All you are succeeding in doing is advertising the fact that either you do not read the detailed replies you get, or you do not assimilate the information those replies contain. The impression that gets communicated is that it's a waste of time responding to youjust as it's a waste of time responding to a tape-player repeating on a loop the message that the earth is flat, because in neither case can any kind of response make a difference.


 
Hello,  I remember many things that was taught to be true....in time new science comes along...and changes things.  The future will show people like me will be proven right or wrong.

Bruce Lee's -NOT sure why he didn't believe in Kata as his training progress many years later...wish he was here to address his belief's on this  use of Kata's. 

I use to believe everything that was taught to me growing up.as the truths...than one day.....you learn lessons...and start to see things differently and questions the many things out there...Why? 

Kata's was one of those....where my beliefs change.....Real fighting changes the way you train too....Aloha

PS: Every soldier who go to combat training...and comes back saying it is NOT same as training.....(lots of fears) to deal with..same with street fights!

AS they say:  "Hard head" ....stubborn....even hopeless at times...Is this ME!  ........Simile ....


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## terryl965

still learning said:


> Hello, I remember many things that was taught to be true....in time new science comes along...and changes things. The future will show people like me will be proven right or wrong.
> 
> Bruce Lee's -NOT sure why he didn't believe in Kata as his training progress many years later...wish he was here to address his belief's on this use of Kata's.
> 
> I use to believe everything that was taught to me growing up.as the truths...than one day.....you learn lessons...and start to see things differently and questions the many things out there...Why?
> 
> Kata's was one of those....where my beliefs change.....Real fighting changes the way you train too....Aloha
> 
> PS: Every soldier who go to combat training...and comes back saying it is NOT same as training.....(lots of fears) to deal with..same with street fights!
> 
> AS they say: "Hard head" ....stubborn....even hopeless at times...Is this ME! ........Simile ....


 

I have come to relize you will never see the light, so i hope you training continues in the direction you wish it to be. Aloha


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## punisher73

> That is why other sports NEVER uses Kata's like training. Remember Practicing , training is NOT Kata! ..........Aloha


 
I have never met a martial art that didn't use kata, they just don't always call it that.  Kata just means a prearranged set of movement.  Boxers use katas all day long when they are learning their combos.  Look at katas, you have a series of 3-5 movements before a change to address a different situation.  A boxer practices 3-5 movements between his defensive movements/offensive movement.  The difference is that a boxer is only dealing with a person right in front of him who is only punching.  He doesn't need to address grabs, attacks from behind etc.

So, I would say that "yes" JKD does have katas, they just aren't labeled as such.  A kata teaches a logical sequence of movements, otherwise your strikes would have no purpose and you would not be economical in your movement/approach which is something Bruce Lee stressed.


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## simplicity

I'll say it again guys, there are no Kata's in Jeet kune Do....Here is something Bruce Lee wrote...I'm taking about Jeet Kune Do...


Bruce Lee said: 

"When you get down to it,real combat is not fixed and is much "ALIVE". The fancy mess (aform of paralysis) solidifies and conditions what was once fluid, and when you look at it realistically, it is nothing but a blind devotion to systematic uselessness of practining routines or stunts that lead nowhere....Stylists, instead of looking directly into the fact, cling to forms (theories) and go on entangling themselves further and further, finally putting themselves into an inextricable snare...The man who is clear and simple does not choose...What is, is. Action based  on an ideal is obviously the action of choice and such action is not liberating. On the contrary, it creates further resistance, further conflict..Assume plible awareness...Set patterns, incapable of adaptability, of pliability, only offer a better cage...The truth is outside of all patterns..."

p.s. I hope this helps...

Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney (2nd Gen. JKD Instructor)


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu

I'm sure I'm jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire so here I go...

I honestly respect Bruce Lee I do, I think he was a great martial artist and revolutionary in what he taught and what he believed.

Now comes the part I'm sure some people are going to hate me for.  In the 20+ years since Bruce Lee's passing martial artists have met and, dare I say it, surpassed Bruce Lee.  I'm not saying that every martial artist out there is as fast as Bruce Lee or as talented a martial artist etc, I'm just saying that when it comes to concepts, ideas, and what not, we have surpassed what Bruce Lee did.  

My argument with Bruce Lee's hatred of kata's was, had he seen and studied every kata around?  I understand he especially had a hatred for classical Chinese forms, for he considered them "too flashy" etc.  I personally study traditional Karate kata where the moves are hard, fast, and directly to the point, and we don't use them as a "way" or a "set fighting style" but more an encyclopedia of moves that are available.  We then take those moves and put them into practical use through kumite practice etc.

I agree with what Punisher stated, kata is a prearranged set of movements, be they a simple set of boxing combos or a complicated set of classical Chinese martial arts movements.  So to say that JKD has absolutely NO kata's is, in my opinion, a misleading statement.​


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## punisher73

> The truth is outside of all patterns


 
I hate to say it, but this is one of those statements that sounds good but how is it that you actually apply it?  Think about it....if it was truly outside of ALL patterns then you could not understand anything about it because there would be no reference point/pattern to find a way.  By quantifying something you can understand part of it's essence enough that when your plan isn't going completely as planned you can make the necessary adjustments.



> The man who is clear and simple does not choose...What is, is. Action based on an ideal is obviously the action of choice and such action is not liberating.


 
If you don't know a preplanned response to a stimulus it doesn't matter "what is, is" there is still no program to run the computer so to speak.  The only way to get to what he is talking about is planned responses to a stimuli until it becomes unconscious action.  Too many people read Bruce Lee's philosophy and try and take his end product and skip the inbetween steps of how to get there.  

The best pianist in the world starts by learning preplanned scales and songs until they can develop their own ability to play and write music.  But, by learning the other stuff they also learn what notes clash and don't harmonize.  Just banging on the keys randomly, while creating noise does not make music.


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## Andrew Green

punisher73 said:


> I have never met a martial art that didn't use kata, they just don't always call it that.



No, plenty don't.  Unless you change the meaning of the word to fit what everyone does.  The way you rare looking at it every physical activity uses kata, and that is clearly not the definition of the word that was met when the question was asked.

JKD does not do kata, Bruce was very vocal about his thoughts on them not being a good tool for what he was teaching.


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## Spartan

Grappling arts, such as bjj and sambo, don't use kata either.


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## still learning

Hello,  Kata's has it's own definations....Boxing movements is NOT A KATA...there is a difference.

The definations of Kata's....look at it...study it....it refers to prearrange movements...to be done in precise way.  Each movements or turns...only reacts to one set of defense/offence sequence. (one cannot make changes) such as Heian shodan....look at it...then try to apply this to real fighting...would you move like that and fight like that in those stances?

Sometimes if you look at things  only one way?  you will not see the other side?

Try and see...the other side....or another way of looking at Kata?

For those who are set and believe in Kata? .....Make a study of seeing the other side? ....ask yourself...Why people do not believe in Kata...make a study of this...from there point of view...NOT mines......then you will have ammo....to destroy the beliefs of...Is kata good or not good?

Learn why other don't  see the WHY's and why nots? ....when you learn both sides point of view....will make you a better JUDGE!  Be open minded when researching other side of view...

I once heard a Shotokan Sensi 5th degree , once said ?  Want to learn to fight take boxing...want to learn Karate...learn Kata.

To learn to fight? ...one must fight to learn!  Kata is not fighting
Fights is "Anything goes, fast, furious, NO RULES, Biting, scatching,pick up anything for weapons ( or the others will use it before you), anyone can jumb in, in close fighting one minute than far, NO SET of stances...just total CHAOS....

For years I believe in Kata's .......others open my eyes? .....NO one fights like a Kata!  

Better yet: Look at those who excell in Kata tournaments...than see how they do in Full contact fighting? .....the answers will surprise you!

Other's may think your thoughts of Kata's as being wrong.....as long as you know you are RIGHT!  ...in your beliefs...and your beliefs only....than it makes it RIGHT! For YOU!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What is right for you to believe...is your right! ..............Aloha


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## terryl965

still learning said:


> Hello, Kata's has it's own definations....Boxing movements is NOT A KATA...there is a difference.
> 
> The definations of Kata's....look at it...study it....it refers to prearrange movements...to be done in precise way. Each movements or turns...only reacts to one set of defense/offence sequence. (one cannot make changes) such as Heian shodan....look at it...then try to apply this to real fighting...would you move like that and fight like that in those stances?
> 
> Sometimes if you look at things only one way? you will not see the other side?
> 
> Try and see...the other side....or another way of looking at Kata?
> 
> For those who are set and believe in Kata? .....Make a study of seeing the other side? ....ask yourself...Why people do not believe in Kata...make a study of this...from there point of view...NOT mines......then you will have ammo....to destroy the beliefs of...Is kata good or not good?
> 
> Learn why other don't see the WHY's and why nots? ....when you learn both sides point of view....will make you a better JUDGE! Be open minded when researching other side of view...
> 
> I once heard a Shotokan Sensi 5th degree , once said ? Want to learn to fight take boxing...want to learn Karate...learn Kata.
> 
> To learn to fight? ...one must fight to learn! Kata is not fighting
> Fights is "Anything goes, fast, furious, NO RULES, Biting, scatching,pick up anything for weapons ( or the others will use it before you), anyone can jumb in, in close fighting one minute than far, NO SET of stances...just total CHAOS....
> 
> For years I believe in Kata's .......others open my eyes? .....NO one fights like a Kata!
> 
> Better yet: Look at those who excell in Kata tournaments...than see how they do in Full contact fighting? .....the answers will surprise you!
> 
> Other's may think your thoughts of Kata's as being wrong.....as long as you know you are RIGHT! ...in your beliefs...and your beliefs only....than it makes it RIGHT! For YOU!
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> What is right for you to believe...is your right! ..............Aloha


 

Why do you not understand that any pre-arrange movement can be a Kata or form in Boxing they have pre-arranged hitting drills with movement in between to get out of they way of there opponet. You keep saying have a opened mind but yours is closed when it comes to forms. Why? What do you believe makes a fighter great sparring, all that does is teach bad habits. And yes I have been in the game for a long time so I see them come and go all the time.
Aloha.


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## MJS

still learning said:


> Hello, Kata's has it's own definations....Boxing movements is NOT A KATA...there is a difference.
> 
> The definations of Kata's....look at it...study it....it refers to prearrange movements...to be done in precise way. Each movements or turns...only reacts to one set of defense/offence sequence. (one cannot make changes) such as Heian shodan....look at it...then try to apply this to real fighting...would you move like that and fight like that in those stances?
> 
> Sometimes if you look at things only one way? you will not see the other side?
> 
> Try and see...the other side....or another way of looking at Kata?
> 
> For those who are set and believe in Kata? .....Make a study of seeing the other side? ....ask yourself...Why people do not believe in Kata...make a study of this...from there point of view...NOT mines......then you will have ammo....to destroy the beliefs of...Is kata good or not good?
> 
> Learn why other don't see the WHY's and why nots? ....when you learn both sides point of view....will make you a better JUDGE! Be open minded when researching other side of view...
> 
> I once heard a Shotokan Sensi 5th degree , once said ? Want to learn to fight take boxing...want to learn Karate...learn Kata.
> 
> To learn to fight? ...one must fight to learn! Kata is not fighting
> Fights is "Anything goes, fast, furious, NO RULES, Biting, scatching,pick up anything for weapons ( or the others will use it before you), anyone can jumb in, in close fighting one minute than far, NO SET of stances...just total CHAOS....
> 
> For years I believe in Kata's .......others open my eyes? .....NO one fights like a Kata!
> 
> Better yet: Look at those who excell in Kata tournaments...than see how they do in Full contact fighting? .....the answers will surprise you!
> 
> Other's may think your thoughts of Kata's as being wrong.....as long as you know you are RIGHT! ...in your beliefs...and your beliefs only....than it makes it RIGHT! For YOU!
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> What is right for you to believe...is your right! ..............Aloha


 
I don't know why I bother, but I may as well reply, yet again.  SL, IMHO, you are missing something here.  As I have said countless times, yet you seem to not read this...a kata is a preset series of movements.  Boxing combos, while not called kata per se, are prearranged series of movements.  A kata done in a martial arts school is done move by move.  However, break that kata down, take parts out to use in self defense...that is how its done in real life.  No, you're not going to get into a stance, bow and move in 20 different directions, but like an actual self defense technique, you can break a kata down and extract the move you need to suit your need at that time.  

You seem to be so hell bent on kata.  Obviously you have no understanding of kata.  If you don't want to do it, fine, then dont do it.  But, to make it sound like it has no value...well, that is where you're very wrong.  Just because you don't understand it, does not mean someone else won't feel differently.  Additionally, kata is one small part of the arts.  There are other things that complete the circle of being a martial artist.

Mike


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## exile

still learning said:


> Hello,  I remember many things that was taught to be true....in time new science comes along...and changes things.  The future will show people like me will be proven right or wrong.
> 
> Bruce Lee's -NOT sure why he didn't believe in Kata as his training progress many years later...wish he was here to address his belief's on this  use of Kata's.
> 
> I use to believe everything that was taught to me growing up.as the truths...than one day.....you learn lessons...and start to see things differently and questions the many things out there...Why?
> 
> Kata's was one of those....where my beliefs change.....Real fighting changes the way you train too....Aloha
> 
> PS: Every soldier who go to combat training...and comes back saying it is NOT same as training.....(lots of fears) to deal with..same with street fights!
> 
> AS they say:  "Hard head" ....stubborn....even hopeless at times...Is this ME!  ........Simile ....



S_L, I hate to say it, but there is not one item of specific information in the post from you I've quoted. You've been given very specific information, and references to sources that contain detailed explanations of what kata actually are, why they are terrifically effective for combat training, but why that training has to take certain forms to convert the knoweldge that kata contain into street-effective conditioned reflexes. And you haven't taken in any of that information, or read any of the sources.

Your posts on this topic remind me of someone who comes along with a sentence in Greek that they don't know the meaning of, and which, not knowing any Greek, they claim is meaningless babble. They get a bunch of responses along the lines of, hey, this is just a sentence in modern Greek. You can get it translated by someone at any university who knows classical languages; and also look, here's a simple translation program that can do the job. And instead of pursuing either option, the person asking about the sentence responds with a post like... oh, let's say,

_does this make sense or not... everyone's opinion is different?... Will the future tell us one way or the other.... etc. etc.... aloha_

The answer to your question is out there, the resources are out there, but instead of doing a little bit of _work_ to get your question answered, your posts are pretty much right in line with the above. No specifics. No response to the evidence presented, even to challenge it. Are you surprised at the tone of the responses you get from very experienced and capable MAists and instructors? Have you actually _noticed_ the tone of those responses? Ever wonder why you get the sorts of reactions you do? I'm trying to tell you, but the evidence is mounting that you simply do not pay any attention to what people say. 

Do you really want your questions on kata answered? Then don't keep posting queries that elicit responses you ignore. Just take two weeks, sit down with any of the many excellent recent books on bunkai and realistic `alive' training methods, and work it through; anything by Iain Abernethy is an excellent place to start. If you won't do this, more and more people are going to conclude that your questions aren't actually sincere... bear in mind, trolls also do this same sort of thing. A word to the wise, eh?


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## MJS

Hmm..here is an interesting article.
http://www.lotusmartialarts.com/articles_importanceofkata.htm

Some key parts from it.

*



			"Katas were originally used to mimic combat scenarios.  It was not feasible to use katas on a training partner because it would maim and seriously hurt him.  Controlled sparring was later developed which would advance progress and decrease the learning time for a student to learn many of the benefits of practicing katas."
		
Click to expand...

* 
Well, look at that.  Kata was used to mimic combat scenarios.

*



			Executing strikes during a kata reinforces what the student has in his arsenal for offensive attacks.  The student executes punches, elbows, chops, kicks, knee strikes, and other attacks.  Will the student ever use all the strikes from a particular kata in a self-defense situation?  Probably not.  But the movements of a kata are like golf clubs.  Every golf club has its purpose.  Some are for driving the ball over a great distance, some are for chipping the ball, some are for putting, etc.  However, the professional golfer has all the clubs in his bag and is ready to use whichever one the situation calls for.  This is like the martial artist who is ready to use whatever movements from his kata are necessary for his particular situation.  Some katas have the student moving while executing strikes.  This builds on the benefits and skill of maintaining a strong balance as well as learning and using distance with strikes in the katas.
		
Click to expand...

* 
Hmm...states that a student will not use all the strikes, but at the end it states that, like a pro golfer who has all his clubs in the bag, the student will be able to use whichever move the situation calls for.


Another link.
http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_karate/iain_abernethy/ia_true_applications.html



> 3, *Every kata move is designed for use in combat.* It is important to understand that all movements within the katas are designed for use in real fights. This includes the opening and closing salutations. Although certain moves may increase strength or improve balance that is not their primary function. Their primary function is to disable an assailant in combat. In his 1974 book, The Heart of Karate-do, Shigeru Egami wrote, Despite a lack of complete understanding, one should not assume that the movements have no meaning or function. I advise performing the movements, thinking about them, and interpreting them in your own way, concentrating heart and soul. This is practice. So when analysing your own kata be sure to understand that every move has a combative purpose and endeavour to understand that purpose.


 
Looks like kata is designed for use in combat.  




> 6, Real fights are sloppy affairs and the way the application is performed will reflect this. When performing a kata, we are practising the ideal movement. Which is relatively easy to achieve against the thin air, but another mater entirely against another human being who is intent on doing you harm. When applying the katas techniques your main concern should be the movements effectiveness, not retaining an inch perfect performance. What is a graceful movement when performed in the kata will become rough round the edges when applied in an all out situation. The visual appearance of a technique must never be a concern  The only valid measure is whether or not the technique disabled the opponent.


 
Hmm...interesting.


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## MJS

To further expand on what Exile has said, I did a search on Iain Abernethy. I came across some interesting reading. I doubt many will sift thru what I'm about to link, but what the hell, I'll put it out anyways. 

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_home.asp

Specifically, I'm pointing to the articles titled, "The Pinan/Heian series as a fighting system" and "The basics of bunkai" There are 5 parts to one and 8 to the other.


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## newGuy12

MJS said:


> I came across some interesting reading.
> 
> http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_home.asp


Yes, there are free downloads there.  Be sure to sign up and download the pdf Applied_Karate.pdf, and look on pages 21 and 22!  The so-called "double-block"!


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## punisher73

The definition of kata is a prearragned set of movements.  That is what it is.  I have yet to meet a martial art (including military manuevers) that doesn't use prearranged sets of movements.  Again, not everyone calls them that, and some refer to them as drills.  But, that doesn't change what a "kata"  by definition is.  People are objecting to how a kata is learned/trained and not what it is in and of itself.

Bruce Lee was very vocal about putting a "name" on something too, which is what alot of the anti-kata people seem to be doing.  They don't want to call any type of prearranged movement a "kata" instead they call it a drill. I understand having a problem with the rigid "do it this way, don't ask questions on what it is" mentalilty that is very prevelant in MA's but that attitude is not kata.


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## simplicity

Guys first of all....Who out of all of you here actually trained in Jeet Kune Do with a person that has a direct link to Bruce Lee? Alot of your question would be answered...I think...

"The Three Stages of Cultivation"

Learn The Principle = 1) Primitive Stage: sloppy, but natural....Abide By The Principles = 2) Mechanical Stage: self and sense of freedom are lost, scientific knowledge gained......Dissolve The principles = 3) Artless or Spontaneous Stage: flowing like water, no longer confined, self expression at highest level......and there you have "IT"...



Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu

I have personally trained with Mr. Paul Bonner who is a certified instructor under Dan Inosanto.  Mr. Bonner teaches JKD Concepts, Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Kali and I believe he's also done some Kempo.
Dan Inosanto himself once stated in an interview that the best forms man he had ever seen was Bruce Lee.  I believe that I read somewhere (don't quote me until I can cite myself here) that Bruce Lee did perform his Wing Chun forms up until he passed.

Personally, (trying to play the devil's advocate here) I have always believed that martial arts is about self expression, expressing what you think and feel.  This means that one person may see kata as 'the way' or 'the truth' and another may see kata as 'nothing but a waste of time.  But that, to me, ladies and gentleman is the greatest aspect of martial arts, that we have the freedom to practice and interpret what we want anyway we want.  

Appologies for my rant I've gone a couple days without sleep it's probably made me rather grumpy!

Cheers!​


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## Shawn

The question was "is there Kata in JKD", not is Kata any good.

Bruce practiced, and had his students practice Si Lum Tao and a wooden dummy form.  So, Kata is a part of Jun Fan JKD, but may or may not be a part of any particular person's expression of JKD ie Burton Richardson's JKD Unlimited does not include those forms - though I'm sure Burton himself did forms as part of his training coming up.


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## still learning

Hello, Kata's refer to a set of movements introduce by karate teachers from Okinawa.  These are preset and percise movements.  They have names Heian or Pinan.  (refering to Karate only here).

Which most of us familiar with today when we talk about "Kata".
These are what we use to describe this particular training methods.

Drills,practice boxing skills...is NOT call or refer to as a KATA!

THANKS :Newguy12 for sharing that "came across interesting reading"
about Kata's and the history.  I really enjoy reading those articles..and it hasn't change my mine a bit...any history of Karate is worth knowing about...Thank-you.

Kata's in Karate is refering to Heian or Pinan Kata...usually done by oneself against NO partners...against imagine enemies.  Alone, by oneself, can be done as a group thing...............Aloha

All alone on this one....well it feels like it!


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## newGuy12

still learning said:


> All alone on this one....well it feels like it!


No, you are not alone.  It is only a misunderstanding.  Please see this thread:
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=866955#post866955
We can discuss this there without getting this thread off-topic.


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## tellner

I don't know about Bruce Lee, although as others say he did Wing Chun which has forms.

I dont' know Mr. Inosanto very well, but I have talked to him a little bit. He has studied and practices an astounding variety of martial arts. Some of them, like boxing and Brazilian Ju Jitsu don't have forms. He also practice Taiji, Krabi Krabong, Silat and several of the FMA forms which do. I've seen him perform juru juru and Krabi Krabong routines. He does them spectacularly.


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## simplicity

Dan Inosanto is differently a teachers, teacher.....There's much more than just the martial arts, but the culture as well behind it.....Dan has been a leader in that also....



Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney


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## hungfistron

Im very much a fan of Sifu Inosanto, he has not only one of the best backgrounds in many styles of martial arts, but he also continues in the path of Jeet Kune Do by still learning and adding more to his renowned arsenal.

This topic was about KATA's in JKD, so I would just like to comment on it.

Bruce Lee changed his opinion on kata's during his different periods between his School in Oakland, and finally in Seatle.

Jun Fan was was primarily based on the Wing Chun, as Bruce Lee thought it was the most effective style at that point in his life.  He knew 2 forms of Wing Chun, and taught his students these forms in his school in Oakland.

Bruce would later learn and study western boxing, fencing, savate and many other styles.  His approach was to study and obtain the essence of each style, and encorporate it into his own.

Jeet Kune Do is a art of the totality of these concepts.  Pure classical Kata's were not encluded in Jeet Kune Do, unless you count the 2 forms he learned by Yip Man in Wing Chun.


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