# How long will Taekwondo stay in Olympic games?



## Markku P (Oct 4, 2011)

This is one question many people are asking right now. If I think of all the problems and challenges in the last 5 years, I think there is a real possibility they will drop Taekwondo from the Olympics in 2120. Right now, the WTF (World Taekwondo federation) is having problems with LaJust and many other national organizations having their own problems.

I have gotten many mails from people all over the world and it&#8217;s alarming how many countries have problems with different issues.

In the US, it seems that their national federation is in trouble and many people have actually taken steps to make things right. It looks like all the power and control are in the hands of a small group of people. I also heard that their athletes&#8217; development program is not working at all and that the federation has lost many members, thereby affecting their financial situation negatively.

It also seems that many other countries are having similar problems&#8230;
In England, there&#8217;s a huge dissatisfaction about the way things are and I predict that something big will happen in the next 2 years.

I think our &#8220;product&#8221; is great but we should educate people more on what Taekwondo competition is and try to create some big stars. Those can be good role models to represent Taekwondo to a big audience
In Sweden, our problems are pretty much the same: not enough money, lack of organizational skills, and no media coverage. Perhaps we need to do some changes.

So what does this all mean for the Olympic games?

Well, of course people in the IOC (International Olympic Committee) will hear things and it will have negative impact. I also heard that IOC really &#8220;hates Taekwondo&#8221; according to Dr. Kim.
So what are the solutions?

Here&#8217;s my list:

1. Better leadership in the WTF ( more professional ).
2. A referee training program, which should be number one priority so we will have fair judging in competitions. We should also stop the constant changes in our competition rules.
3. More effort in marketing Taekwondo which includes hiring a professional and allotting a good budget for this.
I know this is quite a complex issue but if we don&#8217;t start to do something soon, then we will be out of the Olympic games by 2021!

Yours,

Markku P.


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## troubleenuf (Oct 4, 2011)

I think the constant rule changes are the number one reason.  These new rules are a killer.  More complex than ever, almost impossible to implement at local tournaments let alone at international tournaments without problems.  
I also think its time that the leadership becomes global rather than from Korea.  Yes, everyone acknowledges that it is a Korean martial art.  But it is NO LONGER just a Korean Martial art.  It is now a world sport and that means the WOLRD should get a hand in making the decisions that regulate it.  If that doesn't happen, and I think its probably to late for it, I think TKD is out after the next Olympics.


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## Manny (Oct 4, 2011)

Maybe I am wrong but I really don't care about olimpic TKD, yes it's nice to see two competitors at internationallevel or olimpic games but quite frankly as long as I am not a competitor and more a martial artist if TKD goes back and out of olimpic don't make me loose sleep.

However I want to ask some things,this thing about droping TKD from the olimpics is nothing new,I've been hearing this for the last 10 years,and make me wonder,if judo and box are olimpic sports why they have endure solong without serius problems inside IOC?if I remember juod is an olimpic disipline since 1964 without serius problems so why TKD is having so much troubles? politics?I think is all politics and nothing else.

Manny


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## troubleenuf (Oct 4, 2011)

Dont know about Judo but Boxing has had some major problems in the past as well and has come close to the chopping block for the Olympics as well.


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## Master Dan (Oct 4, 2011)

Manny said:


> Maybe I am wrong but I really don't care about olimpic TKD, yes it's nice to see two competitors at internationallevel or olimpic games but quite frankly as long as I am not a competitor and more a martial artist if TKD goes back and out of olimpic don't make me loose sleep.
> 
> However I want to ask some things,this thing about droping TKD from the olimpics is nothing new,I've been hearing this for the last 10 years,and make me wonder,if judo and box are olimpic sports why they have endure solong without serius problems inside IOC?if I remember juod is an olimpic disipline since 1964 without serius problems so why TKD is having so much troubles? politics?I think is all politics and nothing else.
> 
> ...



The largest growth in TKD was prior to and the effort to make it an Olympic sport and the lie that every qaulified person would have a shot at competiting not just a very few from each country which was the largest revenue builder for membership and all the exspense being builked to the hopefull parents. TKD was never properly marketed on the Networks members could not watch on national networks equal to people swishing brooms on ice or other stuff frankly the fighting was so borring bouncing around hand down that announcers ran out of anything to say? The largest historical growth of TKD in Korea was when it was standardized to be taught in all the public schools for children. As far as OTC when we hosted the nationals in 1990 there team train at our studio I thought the yells and some drills were interesting but at the end of the tournament the Korean masters lined them up in the stands and asked how many 1st place no hands, how many 2nd place no hands, how many 3rd place no hands the masters looked at them shook thier heads in discust and walked away. 

TKD largest value is in the KKW and its traditional values and the effects that it could have on our nation the US on behavior, health and education which could bring hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue to TKD which the paper I intend on submitting to the KKW this month will take notice of 16 years of detailed research related to that. 

The elite TKD fighters may for thier fix after the Olympics are gone cross train to fight in MMA why not? Its my hope the qualifed masters will turn to non profit instructions expanding into the schools and health related train which is a market basse 100 times that of just sport TKD.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 4, 2011)

Theres only One Reason itd be bad if TKD went out of the Olympics.

Alot of the already Sport Happy Dojangs would become even more Sport Happy, to try and "get back in".


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 4, 2011)

I think it will get dropped eventually. I am a tkdist, I understand tkd and its techniques and yet I find watching olympic tkd about the most boring sport I have ever witnessed, I seriously struggle not to fall asleep. If a tkdist can find it that boring then I fully understand why non tkdists just dont 'get it'. I must say, its a real shame as I honestly believe that tkd, with the correct 'rules' has the potential to be an amazing spectator sport, far more appealing than boxing or mma. It is fast, energetic, unpredictable, uses punches and kicks and is very dynamic under the correct ruleset. Unfortuantely what we see in the olympics is not even close to demonstrating what tkd is all about and because of this we hear far more negative comments than positive regarding tkd since it became an olympic sport.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 5, 2011)

How about a rules change to reflect actual testing for belts?  Many dojangs require forms (in Olympics must be quick so non-MA don't get bored, and announcers must know what is going on), and breaking.  Who can break the most boards or bricks?  Just like we want to know which weight lifter can lift the most.  Put some drama in the sparing, not to kill anyone, but some knockdowns wouldn't hurt.

Mind you all, I am not a TKDist, having only studied it for a while some 40 odd years ago.  It was different then.  There were competitions, but that wasn't the focus.  The MA was.   

Just my two cents.


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 5, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> How about a rules change to reflect actual testing for belts?  Many dojangs require forms (in Olympics must be quick so non-MA don't get bored, and announcers must know what is going on), and breaking.  Who can break the most boards or bricks?  Just like we want to know which weight lifter can lift the most.  Put some drama in the sparing, not to kill anyone, but some knockdowns wouldn't hurt.
> 
> Mind you all, I am not a TKDist, having only studied it for a while some 40 odd years ago.  It was different then.  There were competitions, but that wasn't the focus.  The MA was.
> 
> Just my two cents.


I remember my original instructor had issues with olympic tkd because he believed tkd encompassed a combination of sparring, timber breaking, self defence and form. He believed that all should be included in the olympics and find the best all-round tkdist.  Its probably not possible but I can see his point.


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## d1jinx (Oct 5, 2011)

Markku P said:


> This is one question many people are asking right now. If I think of all the problems and challenges in the last 5 years, I think there is a real possibility they will drop Taekwondo from the Olympics in 2120. Right now, the WTF (World Taekwondo federation) is having problems with LaJust and many other national organizations having their own problems.
> 
> .



I dont think I'll be around in *2120* to care!!!!!


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## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Dont know about Judo but Boxing has had some major problems in the past as well and has come close to the chopping block for the Olympics as well.



Boxing has a major problem right now with allegations of money being given for boxing medals in the London Olympics. I think this may exercise the IOC more than TKD at the moment. I can see them wanting a big shake up of all the sports after the next Olympics though.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15020658


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## Manny (Oct 5, 2011)

I think  olimpic taekwondo format is boring too, bouncing around, holding in big embraces,waiting...just waiting till the other competitor make his move to do acounter that never lands,last year I saw in you tube something called PRO taekwondo something like this 



or or something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwBHkpC5KJs&feature=related formethis is a good sport tkdnot the olimpic one,maybe a change of rules can make sport tkd more apealing don't you think?

But then again,my sambonimwill be one of the ones who will suffer if TKD is droped form olimpics because he has been part of the international competitions and olimpics too,my sambo is one of the top 5 international referees he has traveled around the world going tointernational tournaments,his wife maybe will go to London 2012 as a referee,but.... I think most of the kids that are part of the dojang will not complain cause they are not competitors,they will go tkd classes nomatter tkd is on or off olimpics.

And I really don't care if tkd is droped OIC or Olimpic games.

Manny

Manny


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## puunui (Oct 11, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> As far as OTC when we hosted the nationals in 1990 there team train at our studio I thought the yells and some drills were interesting but at the end of the tournament the Korean masters lined them up in the stands and asked how many 1st place no hands, how many 2nd place no hands, how many 3rd place no hands the masters looked at them shook thier heads in discust and walked away.




I asked the person who was OTC coach at the time of 1991 Nationals in Portland (not 1990) and he says the above never happened. He also said that if it did happen, then if someone asked who took gold, Juan Moreno, Scott Fujii, Mayumi Pejo, and Sharon Jewell would have raised their hands. For silver, Daniel Miranda would have raised his hand, and for bronze, Kim Dotson Peck would have raised her hand. That's six hands. Two additional OTC resident athletes who did not compete at 91 nationals would have raised their hands if you asked them who made Team that year, Sammy Pejo and Tim Connolly. And this does not include all of the players who would spend time training at OTC, people like Eui Lee, who got bronze that year.


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## msmitht (Oct 11, 2011)

puunui said:


> I asked the person who was OTC coach at the time of 1991 Nationals in Portland (not 1990) and he says the above never happened. He also said that if it did happen, then if someone asked who took gold, Juan Moreno, Scott Fujii, Mayumi Pejo, and Sharon Jewell would have raised their hands. For silver, Daniel Miranda would have raised his hand, and for bronze, Kim Dotson Peck would have raised her hand. That's six hands. Two additional OTC resident athletes who did not compete at 91 nationals would have raised their hands if you asked them who made Team that year, Sammy Pejo and Tim Connolly. And this does not include all of the players who would spend time training at OTC, people like Eui Lee, who got bronze that year.


wasn't hyon lee there too? Didn't he lose to juan for team trials that year? Might be confusing with 1992 but he wazs resident athlete in 1991.


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## puunui (Oct 11, 2011)

msmitht said:


> wasn't hyon lee there too? Didn't he lose to juan for team trials that year? Might be confusing with 1992 but he wazs resident athlete in 1991.




Yes, hyon lee was a otc resident athlete for about three years I think. I believe he and scott fujii left otc right after nationals and went home to california, to your neck of the woods actually.


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## sopraisso (Nov 5, 2011)

Honestly and personally, I don't care and I even wish TKD went off the Olympic gamers. I don't enjoy WTF sparring rules, and as someone who practices under a kukkiwon-oriented dojang, I think most of our practice there is badly affected by WTF-oriented sparring trainings, removing most of what we call there "martial taekwondo" and leaving instead something I just wasn't looking for when I decided to practice taekwondo. As for where I live, there's just NO option, coz all schools are kukkiwon/WTF oriented. As are most schools in my country. I'm sure there are more countries with same issues.
I don't care if people wanna practice TKD as a sport -- given a sparring sport can be practiced in many ways. I even enjoy that. But WTF has just made the sport become unrecognizable when compared to the martial art.


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## IcemanSK (Nov 5, 2011)

sopraisso said:


> Honestly and personally, I don't care and I even wish TKD went off the Olympic gamers. I don't enjoy WTF sparring rules, and as someone who practices under a kukkiwon-oriented dojang, I think most of our practice there is badly affected by WTF-oriented sparring trainings, removing most of what we call there "martial taekwondo" and leaving instead something I just wasn't looking for when I decided to practice taekwondo. As for where I live, there's just NO option, coz all schools are kukkiwon/WTF oriented. As are most schools in my country. I'm sure there are more countries with same issues.I don't care if people wanna practice TKD as a sport -- given a sparring sport can be practiced in many ways. I even enjoy that. But WTF has just made the sport become unrecognizable when compared to the martial art.


I agree with you on this. I've been training in Kukki-tkd dojang since 1982 & I've seen a change that I don't care for. Sparring has become so specialized that training for it takes much more training time. Less & less training time is available for SD training in most schools. Olympic sparring, IMO, has become less interesting to watch over the years. I found it so much more exciting to watch in 1988 than I did in 2008. In fact, I found myself watching Olympic Judo in 2008 because the TKD was that uninteresting to watch.I don't see TKD being an Olympic sport past 2016 (or 2020, whatever the last year planned is currently).


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 5, 2011)

IcemanSK said:


> I agree with you on this. I've been training in Kukki-tkd dojang since 1982 & I've seen a change that I don't care for. Sparring has become so specialized that training for it takes much more training time. Less & less training time is available for SD training in most schools. Olympic sparring, IMO, has become less interesting to watch over the years. I found it so much more exciting to watch in 1988 than I did in 2008. In fact, I found myself watching Olympic Judo in 2008 because the TKD was that uninteresting to watch.I don't see TKD being an Olympic sport past 2016 (or 2020, whatever the last year planned is currently).


As Ive mentioned before, I was watching the 2008 olympics with my daughter, who was 7 at the time with about 3 years of tkd training (nonsport) under her belt. I was sitting there watching and she came over and started watching it with me. After a few minutes she said "this looks pretty cool dad, what martial art is this?". To her it was completely unrecognisable compared to what she does. The 'sport' side of tkd has slowly morphed into something very different to martial tkd. At least when it loses olympic status I wont have to constantly say to people "no, I dont do that funny kicking thing you see on the olympics".


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## msmitht (Nov 6, 2011)

Interesting responses. If you don't like tkd as a sport then don't do it anymore. Join an itf or ata(lol) school and be happy and content. Personally I hope the sport continues in the olympics. The main problem is masters and gms who do not teach proper, up to date, kukki tkd.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 6, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Interesting responses. If you don't like tkd as a sport then don't do it anymore. Join an itf or ata(lol) school and be happy and content. Personally I hope the sport continues in the olympics. The main problem is masters and gms who do not teach proper, up to date, kukki tkd.


I was fortunate in that when I started tkd I joined a club in our local area that had a very good reputataion. At the time I didnt realise there was a 'sport' side and was just fortunate enough that the club I joined was very removed from the sport side. I have known people who havent been that lucky and realise after a couple of years training that what they are learning is very sport orientated not knowing there is a difference. It is hard for them after that period of time when they have forged good relationships and learnt a lot of curriculum and dont necessarilly want to go elsewhere and start from scratch. I also feel for people who train at clubs where the sport side has slowly become dominant over a long period of time and may have 10 years or more of training under their belt before they realise the school is going in a different direction than what they may have liked.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 6, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I was fortunate in that when I started tkd I joined a club in our local area that had a very good reputataion. At the time I didnt realise there was a 'sport' side and was just fortunate enough that the club I joined was very removed from the sport side. I have known people who havent been that lucky and realise after a couple of years training that what they are learning is very sport orientated not knowing there is a difference. It is hard for them after that period of time when they have forged good relationships and learnt a lot of curriculum and dont necessarilly want to go elsewhere and start from scratch. I also feel for people who train at clubs where the sport side has slowly become dominant over a long period of time and may have 10 years or more of training under their belt before they realise the school is going in a different direction than what they may have liked.


I think weve concluded this before, but I had the exact same Situation. Except that unfortunately, where I was Training ITF they started sliding downhill a bit. Also fortunately, I was able to notice the changes, and act instead of go with them.

And it pretty much worked out for the better.
For Me, anyway.


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## msmitht (Nov 6, 2011)

Like I said b4:if you don't like it then leave your school and do something else. Try taI chi


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## sopraisso (Nov 6, 2011)

I tell you, I would change my school. But I have no options. As far as I  know, all schools in my city (and there are many) have been infected by  the olympic virus. The one I train at is said to be the most  martial-oriented one and, nevertheless, it's slowly but clearly come to  be quite sport-oriented as well. It's not what I was looking for when I  started out, and after time and sweat spent, bounds made, and  achievements got, it feels so hard to just throw it away and try another  martial art. Tai Chi? Haha, it doesn't sound bad at all, but maybe I'd  try karate, in a less sport-oriented school. But I like taekwondo! Since  I started, I dedicated myself, I learned probably much more than most  people usually do at this point, just because I tried to search by  myself. I wanted to be part of what I thought was taekwondo. And after  all... It really feels sad to think I would give up on it, not because  tkd is not ok, but just because there isn't in my city a school  that  teaches in a martial-oriented way. I'm talking about lack of options!
And  you know what? Today it's really boring to have to explain that what we  learn in my school isn't (at least not only) what is seen in the  Olympics. I say there's punches, throws, joint locks, and that there's a  real fight aspect in taekwondo. And honestly today I myself feel harder  and harder to believe it, if I use WTF-related schools for reference.  It looks like taekwondo has become two different things, and that in  most of times one is sold like being the other. Maybe I would love my  current school had a big poster in front of it, saying "Sport Taekwondo  here", when I first stepped in front of it. I would've been aware from  the beginning that was not what I wanted.
It seems in countries like  USA, Australia and England people have a lot of options. Here in Brazil,  unfortunately, we just can't practice ITF, ATA or other alternatives in  most parts of the country. Anyway, it wouldn't be bad to practice KKW  Taekwondo! The problem is... I think today it seems more like just WTF  Taekwondo, if you can get what I mean.


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## IcemanSK (Nov 6, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Interesting responses. If you don't like tkd as a sport then don't do it anymore. Join an itf or ata(lol) school and be happy and content. Personally I hope the sport continues in the olympics. The main problem is masters and gms who do not teach proper, up to date, kukki tkd.


There is much more to Kukki-TKD than Olympic TKD, as you well know. The evolution of poomsae in Kukki-TKD has been great. It's gone from the background to prominence in competition on the world stage. I see the future of the Art there.


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## msmitht (Nov 6, 2011)

IcemanSK said:


> There is much more to Kukki-TKD than Olympic TKD, as you well know. The evolution of poomsae in Kukki-TKD has been great. It's gone from the background to prominence in competition on the world stage. I see the future of the Art there.


Agreed but you have to concede that what the majority of masters teach is wtf sport and not kukki tkd.


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## IcemanSK (Nov 6, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Agreed but you have to concede that what the majority of masters teach is wtf sport and not kukki tkd.


Absolutely. I don't argue that point in the least. And, on the point of the OP, I think the reason Olympic TKD may not survive past it's current promised date has much more to do with the politics behind the what happens on the mat.


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## miguksaram (Nov 8, 2011)

Not sure if I posted this on the list somewhere or not, but here is a video of a speech given by Dr. Kim during our 2009 trip to Korea.  Some of you may find his words interesting.  



.


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## mastercole (Nov 8, 2011)

Why would anyone concede to misinformation?  According to the Kukkiwon and the WTF, the mass majority of Taekwondo practitioners in the world never train to enter WTF events, and never attend a tournament of any kind. The mass majority of training is curriculum based, that includes Poomsae (many types), Kyorugi (many types), Breaking (many types) and Mommakki (many types). Most schools even add in weapons, boxing, wrestling or some other fun activity to keep students interest. This is the fact of life for Taekwondo in not only the USA, but Korea and the rest of the world.


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## sopraisso (Nov 9, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Why would anyone concede to misinformation?  According to the Kukkiwon and the WTF, the mass majority of Taekwondo practitioners in the world never train to enter WTF events, and never attend a tournament of any kind. The mass majority of training is curriculum based, that includes Poomsae (many types), Kyorugi (many types), Breaking (many types) and Mommakki (many types). Most schools even add in weapons, boxing, wrestling or some other fun activity to keep students interest. This is the fact of life for Taekwondo in not only the USA, but Korea *and the rest of the world*.



Haha.
Well, maybe we should ask which one is spreading the misinformation!
OK. I believe hardly all people inside a KKW dojang would have interest to join WTF events. Anyway, I beliebe in most KKW dojangs, *at least some people* always do.
Regardless, it's hard to believe in *every place of the world *KKW TKD training is predominantly not tournament-oriented. I can only tell for the city where I live, in Brazil: *all dojangs I know* (and they're many) are significantly tournament-oriented, no matter their students wish or not to participate on tournaments. Moreover, most of those dojangs are *highly* and predominantly tournament-oriented, I mean the opposite of what you said above.
At minimum, you cannot say "in the USA, in Korea and in the rest of the world". *This is a misinformation.* Actually, if WTF and KKW say different, I wonder if they're not the ones who are spreading wrong informations.
In my country, by the way, the only public image TKD has been building over the years is that of a mere contact sport -- I mean not even of a martial art. Even official organizations websites often promote only that aspect. No need to say how TKD has become ridiculed among regular martial artists in general and people interested in martial arts, who just don't consider practicing what is no longer considered a real martial art. =/


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## msmitht (Nov 9, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Why would anyone concede to misinformation?  According to the Kukkiwon and the WTF, the mass majority of Taekwondo practitioners in the world never train to enter WTF events, and never attend a tournament of any kind. The mass majority of training is curriculum based, that includes Poomsae (many types), Kyorugi (many types), Breaking (many types) and Mommakki (many types). Most schools even add in weapons, boxing, wrestling or some other fun activity to keep students interest. This is the fact of life for Taekwondo in not only the USA, but Korea and the rest of the world.


Almost all of the KKW/wtf style schools in CA are sport oriented. There are a few who are not but the MAJORITY is. I have attended KKW/WTF schools outside the US and they were deep into the sport. Maybe where you are from it is not that way but in 90% of the schools I have seen WTF sport is what is taught.


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## mastercole (Nov 9, 2011)

sopraisso said:


> Haha.
> Well, maybe we should ask which one is spreading the misinformation!
> OK. I believe hardly all people inside a KKW dojang would have interest to join WTF events. Anyway, I beliebe in most KKW dojangs, *at least some people* always do.
> Regardless, it's hard to believe in *every place of the world *KKW TKD training is predominantly not tournament-oriented. I can only tell for the city where I live, in Brazil: *all dojangs I know* (and they're many) are significantly tournament-oriented, no matter their students wish or not to participate on tournaments. Moreover, most of those dojangs are *highly* and predominantly tournament-oriented, I mean the opposite of what you said above.
> ...



sopraisso, you are indeed amazing. I wonder how you came upon such knowledge beyond that of the Kukkiwon and the WTF.  If this is the case, you are more knowledgeable about the state of Kukkiwon and WTF, than, either the Kukkiwon or the WTF!  My heartfelt congratulations!

So now that you have stated that the Kukkiwon and the WTF are incorrect in their assessment of their own practitioners participation in tournaments, please tell us how you have come to this conclusion, for the sake of academics.

Start with Brazil 

Have you visited the majority of Taekwondo clubs in Brazil and surveyed what percentages are involvement in competitions? What was the result?

Now the rest of the world.

How many nations have you visited for Taekwondo, and during those visits, did you visit the majority of Taekwondo clubs in those nations?  What was the result?

Thanks in advance for sharing your research, I recommend that we send it off to Kukkiwon and WTF right away.

Warmest Personal Regards,

Al Cole


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## mastercole (Nov 10, 2011)

That's interesting, having attended tournaments in California, and regularly attending the largest and most prestigious Taekwondo event in California, I have found that speaking directly to the various leaders of the California Taekwondo organizations, like CUTA, CTA, NCTA, etc, I find they all are of the opinion that it's the minority of Taekwondo students who participate in tournaments. They would love to see more participation, even among their own students.

But if you have taken a survey of all the Kukkiwon/WTF related schools in California, and have different statistics, I would love to see them.

Which nations have you visited for Taekwondo events? Did you do the same sort of surveying you did in California in those nations as well?  What were the results?

I really appreciate you sharing this information.

Best Regards,

Al Cole


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## Tez3 (Nov 10, 2011)

Put the girls in little mini skirts as the boxing authorities plan to do with the female boxers, then the lads in short shorts and TKD will run forever.


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## Master Dan (Nov 10, 2011)

mastercole said:


> That's interesting, having attended tournaments in California, and regularly attending the largest and most prestigious Taekwondo event in California, I have found that speaking directly to the various leaders of the California Taekwondo organizations, like CUTA, CTA, NCTA, etc, I find they all are of the opinion that it's the minority of Taekwondo students who participate in tournaments. They would love to see more participation, even among their own students.
> 
> But if you have taken a survey of all the Kukkiwon/WTF related schools in California, and have different statistics, I would love to see them.
> 
> ...


  Gee I wonder why then KKW and the UTC both agree that sport and tournament TKD are only 1-10% of the entire TKD focus and membership training and that is why the HanmaDang in Korea has 15,000 competitors related to more martial art based participation remembering that ART constitutes a substantial portion of expression and why it is becoming a bigger success and draw in the US???????????? Also the surviving pioneers here only promote TKD as a mere sport not martial art?? reminds me of my GM explaining our experience compared to swiming in a small pond and then going to the ocean?? I suspect Supriaso is swiming in a puddle?????????


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## IcemanSK (Nov 10, 2011)

I live in California also. I see very few schools that teach Kukki-TKD, but teach sport, instead. I run into adult BB's in their 20's who have KKW certs. but have never done poomsae of any kind. I don't participate in tournaments, nor do my students. I see that as rare in my state. Maybe there are more of us than I realize.


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## OwlMatt (Nov 12, 2011)

Personally, I consider the transition of taekwondo from martial art to sport a good thing. I think it promotes a more realistic attitude toward the applications of the art (fewer people thinking they're going to take on five guys in the street Van Damme-style); keeps TKD from going the way many karate programs have gone--into a pit of fanciful, pseudo-religious nonsense; and allows people to focus on the Korean innovations to the art without clinging to the nationalistic fabrication that is the official history of taekwondo. What the Kukkiwon and the WTF need to do to make this work, though, is stop changing the rules and the forms every few years and stop pushing the aforementioned falsified history as required reading.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 12, 2011)

OwlMatt said:


> Personally, I consider the transition of taekwondo from martial art to sport a good thing. I think it promotes a more realistic attitude toward the applications of the art (fewer people thinking they're going to take on five guys in the street Van Damme-style); keeps TKD from going the way many karate programs have gone--into a pit of fanciful, pseudo-religious nonsense; and allows people to focus on the Korean innovations to the art without clinging to the nationalistic fabrication that is the official history of taekwondo. What the Kukkiwon and the WTF need to do to make this work, though, is stop changing the rules and the forms every few years and stop pushing the aforementioned falsified history as required reading.


No martial art will prepare you for taking on 5 guys van damme style, BUT tkd taught as a martial art (not sport) will prepare you to handle yourself very well in a real life situation. I know many police officers and army guys who train soley martial tkd and they can not only fight very well, but are using what they know in day to day situations. There is no problem with 'sport' tkd providing the guys doing it know they are not learning to defend themselves, they are learning a sport. There is still plenty of room for it to co-exist with martial tkd in my opinion.


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## OwlMatt (Nov 13, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> No martial art will prepare you for taking on 5 guys van damme style, BUT tkd taught as a martial art (not sport) will prepare you to handle yourself very well in a real life situation. I know many police officers and army guys who train soley martial tkd and they can not only fight very well, but are using what they know in day to day situations. There is no problem with 'sport' tkd providing the guys doing it know they are not learning to defend themselves, they are learning a sport. There is still plenty of room for it to co-exist with martial tkd in my opinion.


I've never met a person who uses what would be recognized in a dojang as taekwondo in self-defense situations.


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## Master Dan (Nov 13, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> No martial art will prepare you for taking on 5 guys van damme style, BUT tkd taught as a martial art (not sport) will prepare you to handle yourself very well in a real life situation. I know many police officers and army guys who train soley martial tkd and they can not only fight very well, but are using what they know in day to day situations. There is no problem with 'sport' tkd providing the guys doing it know they are not learning to defend themselves, they are learning a sport. There is still plenty of room for it to co-exist with martial tkd in my opinion.


 Ralph it just seems like any of those in the ages of 20-30 who want to talk of thier vast knowledge related to what TKD is or is not just don't get? If they or anyone they know has no SD skills its not the art only the instructor teaching it. Traditional TKD is all inclusive of everthing just the focus of training changes with time age and health. The fact that there is such a general concensus of uniformed people saying something diferent or so many so called masters now who never learned anything different still does not change what was at its base and some of this comes home to roost from many who refused to share or keep what was best for only thier own kind or inner circle promoting only sport to bring people in the door.


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## chrispillertkd (Nov 13, 2011)

OwlMatt said:


> I've never met a person who uses what would be recognized in a dojang as taekwondo in self-defense situations.



I have. Not KKW Taekwon-Do, but ITF Taekwon-Do.

Pax,

Chris


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 13, 2011)

OwlMatt said:


> I've never met a person who uses what would be recognized in a dojang as taekwondo in self-defense situations.


so you've never seen someone use a hook punch, uppercut, front kick, elbow, throat strike etc in a real situation? Or do you only refer to tkd clubs where they bounce around doing tornado kicks for an hour and a half with a bit of tappy point sparrring thrown in? Go and check out some ITF dojangs or some schools teaching traditional tkd, there are schools everywhere that teach tkd applicable to real situations.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 13, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> Ralph it just seems like any of those in the ages of 20-30 who want to talk of thier vast knowledge related to what TKD is or is not just don't get? If they or anyone they know has no SD skills its not the art only the instructor teaching it. Traditional TKD is all inclusive of everthing just the focus of training changes with time age and health. The fact that there is such a general concensus of uniformed people saying something diferent or so many so called masters now who never learned anything different still does not change what was at its base and some of this comes home to roost from many who refused to share or keep what was best for only thier own kind or inner circle promoting only sport to bring people in the door.


I have to laugh when people say "nothing taught in tkd is applicable to a real SD situation", what they should say is - "nothing 'I'VE' been taught in tkd is applicable to a real SD situation". It just makes no sense at all that someting with a curriculum involving a massive array of strikes and blocks cant be 'effective'. If certain instructors want to pull out a few selected bits and pieces and call it tkd, and train it as a sport revolving around a ridiculous ruleset then no, it wont be effective. The art itself is highly effective, its just the way certain instructors train it that can make it less so. Its like driving a car around permanantly in 1st gear and then declaring "this car is too slow". The car isnt slow, its the driver who refuses to get out of first gear.


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## Master Dan (Nov 14, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have to laugh when people say "nothing taught in tkd is applicable to a real SD situation", what they should say is - "nothing 'I'VE' been taught in tkd is applicable to a real SD situation". It just makes no sense at all that someting with a curriculum involving a massive array of strikes and blocks cant be 'effective'. If certain instructors want to pull out a few selected bits and pieces and call it tkd, and train it as a sport revolving around a ridiculous ruleset then no, it wont be effective. The art itself is highly effective, its just the way certain instructors train it that can make it less so. Its like driving a car around permanantly in 1st gear and then declaring "this car is too slow". The car isnt slow, its the driver who refuses to get out of first gear.


 Thank you well put the same mistakes are made constantly in assumptions of what a person can or can't do related to SD in viewing age, size, or body type as well. The true basis for all traditional Martial Arts is things are not always what they seem and sweeping statement of everything is all one way or this only demonstrates a total lack of experience or common sense possibly both? as always thanks Ralph


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## Cyriacus (Nov 14, 2011)

OwlMatt said:


> Personally, I consider the transition of taekwondo from martial art to sport a good thing. I think it promotes a more realistic attitude toward the applications of the art (fewer people thinking they're going to take on five guys in the street Van Damme-style); keeps TKD from going the way many karate programs have gone--into a pit of fanciful, pseudo-religious nonsense; and allows people to focus on the Korean innovations to the art without clinging to the nationalistic fabrication that is the official history of taekwondo. What the Kukkiwon and the WTF need to do to make this work, though, is stop changing the rules and the forms every few years and stop pushing the aforementioned falsified history as required reading.


History Teaching is hardly Relevant to Application of a System. You also seem to be Confused. On the one hand, You say TKD has Degenerated into Fanciful Stuff and not so much a Fighting Form, but also say that You think its Good that its becoming more Sport than Art. Rethink Your Viewpoint.



OwlMatt said:


> I've never met a person who uses what would be recognized in a dojang as taekwondo in self-defense situations.



Yeah.

Probably because You do Aikido.
I wouldnt expect You to meet many TKD Practitioners from Various Systems of TKD in Your Aikido Dojo.


That aside, You must have a Truly Strange Idea of what Self Defense is, You Poor Soul.


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## OwlMatt (Nov 14, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> History Teaching is hardly Relevant to Application of a System.


I disagree. I think a lot of misconceptions about the applications of taekwondo stem from the false notion that Koreans were defeating their enemies with taekwondo kicks 2,000 years ago.


> You also seem to be Confused. On the one hand, You say TKD has Degenerated into Fanciful Stuff and not so much a Fighting Form, but also say that You think its Good that its becoming more Sport than Art. Rethink Your Viewpoint.


I did not say TKD has degenerated into fanciful stuff. I said I think the sporting focus has helped keep TKD from degenerating into fanciful stuff. Please make sure you know what a post says next time before you -rep it.


> Yeah.
> 
> Probably because You do Aikido.
> I wouldnt expect You to meet many TKD Practitioners from Various Systems of TKD in Your Aikido Dojo.


I have also trained Taekwondo, otherwise I wouldn't be posting in a taekwondo forum. Please refrain from making assumptions.


> That aside, You must have a Truly Strange Idea of what Self Defense is, You Poor Soul.


Irrelevant, baseless insult. Borderline trolling.

There is plenty of room for disagreement on MT. Look up the page and you will see Raplh disagreeing with me quite effectively. He, however, does a few things you do not do: (1) he is courteous and not condescending, (2) he cites actual experience, (3) he makes no uninformed assumptions, (4) he refrains from personal attacks, and (5) he does not quickdraw -rep.

You were in such a hurry to call me an idiot that you misread my post and jumped to some very wrong conclusions. Please be more careful in the future. If you'd like to continue this conversation like a grown-up, I'm listening.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 14, 2011)

OwlMatt said:


> I disagree. I think a lot of misconceptions about the applications of taekwondo stem from the false notion that Koreans were defeating their enemies with taekwondo kicks 2,000 years ago.
> 
> *Misconceptions, Yes. I do not Believe TKD Kicks were used 2000 Years ago, and have never even heard that Idealogy. As far as I know, it was Idealised in the 50s with a Karate Influence, and I see No Reason to Learn More.*
> 
> ...



To jump back to History, Kickboxing was Stemmed from Karate. And yet it barely Resembles it. Does the fact Kickboxing Stems from Karate mean that its Historical Connection to Karate Influences how the System is Taught?
A Fair Few Forms of Kickboxing have Belt Systems. And so forth.
Different Places Teach Different TKD History, and different TKD Interpritations.
And so forth.

What Ive been trying to say, is that You are seeing the Less Fighting-Geared Form of TKD as being more Present.



OwlMatt said:


> Personally, I consider the transition of taekwondo from martial art to sport a good thing. I think it promotes a more realistic attitude toward the applications of the art *(fewer people thinking they're going to take on five guys in the street Van Damme-style)*; keeps TKD from going the way many karate programs have gone--into a pit of fanciful, pseudo-religious nonsense; and allows people to focus on the Korean innovations to the art without clinging to the nationalistic fabrication that is the official history of taekwondo. What the Kukkiwon and the WTF need to do to make this work, though, _is stop changing the rules and the forms every few years_ _and stop pushing the aforementioned falsified history as required reading._


See the Italic Text? I Agree with Both of Those. Isnt it amazing that Im not just Personally Attacking You?
The Underlined Text is what Im Speaking of Firstly. Yes, History can be Overtaught. By some Instructors. But definitely not all, and probably not the Overall Majority in all TKD.

As for Martial Art and Sport, Ill let a KKW TKD Stylist talk about the difference between Sport Forms, and Not-So-Sport-Forms.
Then the Bold Text:


ralphmcpherson said:


> No martial art will prepare you for taking on 5 guys van damme style, _BUT tkd taught as a martial art (not sport) will prepare you to handle yourself very well in a real life situation._ I know many police officers and army guys who train soley martial tkd and they can not only fight very well, but are using what they know in day to day situations. There is no problem with 'sport' tkd providing the guys doing it know *they are not learning to defend themselves, they are learning a sport.* There is still plenty of room for it to co-exist with martial tkd in my opinion.


The Underlined Text is a Reply by a TKD Practitioner, who doesnt Practition a Sporting Form who has Learnt, and possibly been Taught this.
The Italic Text is to Verify His View, which is basically Mine, also.
The Bold Text is also what Ive been saying.



Cyriacus said:


> History Teaching is hardly Relevant to Application of a System. You also seem to be Confused. On the one hand, You say TKD has Degenerated into Fanciful Stuff and not so much a Fighting Form, but also say that You think its Good that its becoming more Sport than Art. Rethink Your Viewpoint.
> 
> *This is Me saying that the History does not direct the Art. Some places just Teach it too Emphatically.
> **I then go on to say that You said; " I think it promotes a more realistic attitude toward the applications of the art (fewer people thinking they're going to take on five guys in the street Van Damme-style);" and "gone--into a pit of fanciful, pseudo-religious nonsense;". What else am I supposed to think? Next Time, Ill be sure to assume that by this, You mean that no TKD is like that at all, and doesnt teach that kind of stuff. And Naturally Assume that You meant, "I did not say TKD has degenerated into fanciful stuff. I said I think the sporting focus has helped keep TKD from degenerating into fanciful stuff. Please make sure you know what a post says next time before you -rep it."*
> ...





ralphmcpherson said:


> so you've never seen someone use a hook punch, uppercut, front kick, elbow, throat strike etc in a real situation? *Or do you only refer to tkd clubs where they bounce around doing tornado kicks for an hour and a half with a bit of tappy point sparrring thrown in?* Go and check out some ITF dojangs or some schools teaching traditional tkd, there are schools everywhere that teach tkd applicable to real situations.


These are all TKD Techniques, taught in Traditional TKD. (Not the Bold Text. The Techniques. But hey, Jumping Spinning Roundhouses have been around for a long time as well. Theyre just rare as hell in usage)


Now, if We Disagree on this, that is Fine.
I dont Mind.
There is Nothing Wrong with Agreeing to Disagree.

But Bare in Mind, that if what I was saying was a Personal Attack, then perhaps consider Re-Reading it in a Different Mindset.
And if I were Trolling, all Id have to do is say something about Aikidokas.

** - In Regards to This Section, Ralph Mcpherson Answers nicely. If those Methods arent Self Defense, well, thats Interesting. Hence My Comment.
Those are TKD Techniques in TKD. Non-Sport TKD.



In Addition, I am apparently Rude and Misreading, according to the Returned Rep-, otherwise known as Cause>Effect.
Id rather like another Users Input on This Conversation.


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## OwlMatt (Nov 14, 2011)

Cyriacus, that post was much too long for me to respond to it point-by-point, so I've stuck here to those things that are in your own words and directly relating to taekwondo. There's no point in continuing a fight about e-behavior, anyway.



Cyriacus said:


> To jump back to History, Kickboxing was Stemmed from Karate. And yet it barely Resembles it. Does the fact Kickboxing Stems from Karate mean that its Historical Connection to Karate Influences how the System is Taught?
> A Fair Few Forms of Kickboxing have Belt Systems. And so forth.
> 
> Different Places Teach Different TKD History, and different TKD Interpritations.
> ...


Not necessarily more present, but certainly more relevant to the topic of this thread.


> See the Italic Text? I Agree with Both of Those. Isnt it amazing that Im not just Personally Attacking You?
> The Underlined Text is what Im Speaking of Firstly. Yes, History can be Overtaught. By some Instructors. But definitely not all, and probably not the Overall Majority in all TKD.


If this discussion were to encompass all styles of taekwondo, then I would agree with you. But this thread is about Olympic taekwondo, and so I was speaking specifically about KKW/WTF taekwondo, many schools of which (including the KKW itself) still push this false history, which creates confusion about the art.



> *Misconceptions, Yes. I do not Believe TKD Kicks were used 2000 Years  ago, and have never even heard that Idealogy. As far as I know, it was  Idealised in the 50s with a Karate Influence, and I see No Reason to  Learn More.*


Okay, then we agree on that. I see this point, on which we seem to agree, as evidence that the pushing of a false history negatively affects taekwondo, both as a sport and as a martial art. And yes, I hear this kind of history all the time from KKW/WTF schools. It is the official history according to the KKW and the WTF.


> *This is the Contradiction. The Sport Focus is why TKD is Viewed as  not using Guards, Not Blocking, and Rarely if ever Punching. If the  Sport is whats Preventing Fancy Stuff, well thats Funny, since any given  Old Video of TKD has next to No, or No Fanciful Stuff at all. Can You  Support Your Statements? (Amazingly, this is out of Curiousity!)*


I don't think we are talking about the same thing on this point. You seem to be talking about technical elements of modern sport taekwondo that are martially impractical. I certainly agree that someone who mistakes modern sport taekwondo for life-saving self-defense techniques is kidding himself, but that's not really what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is the way sport allows taekwondo schools to  avoid the trap into which so many karate schools have fallen: that of  pseudo-spiritual life-coaching and fantasy playacting. If you're willing  to accept that your martial art is a sport rather than some mystical,  foreign spiritual tradition, you're far less likely to be led into this  kind of trap.


> *You are Viewing this  Subjectively to YOUR Experience with TKD.*


Of course I am. So is everyone else.


> *And I feel that Your Statements were too Sweeping, and Generalized  TKD based on the Variety of it which is ultimately not as close to a  Fighting Purpose as others. And I am not referring to the KKW Form, but  to Instructors who trim it down to be Fanciful.*


I was speaking about KKW/WTF taekwondo because that is the Olympic style, and this thread is about Olympic taekwondo. I did not intend to generalize all taekwondo. I apologize if I inadvertently misled you.


> The Underlined Text is a Reply by a TKD Practitioner, who doesnt  Practition a Sporting Form who has Learnt, and possibly been Taught  this.
> The Italic Text is to Verify His View, which is basically Mine, also.
> The Bold Text is also what Ive been saying.


If your point is that sport focus makes taekwondo less martial and less practical, then I guess I agree, but it's really only a problem for practitioners of the Olympic style (KKW/WTF); I don't think it brings all of taekwondo down with it. I guess that goes along with what Ralph was saying about coexisting.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 14, 2011)

OwlMatt said:


> Cyriacus, that post was much too long for me to respond to it point-by-point, so I've stuck here to those things that are in your own words and directly relating to taekwondo. There's no point in continuing a fight about e-behavior, anyway.
> 
> *Yep.
> *
> ...



*nods*


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 14, 2011)

@OWLMATT - I think a lot of this discussion would not have been necessary if  instead of saying - " I've never met a person who uses what would be recognized in a dojang as taekwondo in self-defense situation" you had said - "I've never met a person who uses what would be recognized in a "KKW" dojang as taekwondo in self-defense situation. The key point here is that you are referring soley to KKW tkd when many, many tkdists dont actually do that style. To jump on a tkd board and say that tkd is no good for self defence is always going to end with a heated discussion. If you are talking soley about KKW tkd then I agree to a point, but I still think the average joe on the street would get his *** kicked by a highly skilled KKW tkdist, in fact I think the KKW guy would probably kick them 3 times before the average guy would even know he is in a fight, those guys kick lightening fast and their kicks hurt. But generally I agree that KKW tkd does not appear to be completely geared toward self efence. Other forms of tkd are a completely different story.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 15, 2011)

And as for Rudeness, consider that You said;
"Irrelevant, baseless insult. Borderline trolling."
"(1) he is courteous and not condescending, (2) he cites actual experience, (3) he makes no uninformed assumptions, (4) he refrains from personal attacks, and (5) he does not quickdraw -rep."
"You were in such a hurry to call me an idiot that you misread my post and jumped to some very wrong conclusions."
"If you'd like to continue this conversation like a grown-up, I'm listening."

As a Response to;
"That aside, You must have a Truly Strange Idea of what Self Defense is, You Poor Soul."
"You also seem to be Confused."
The First Statement isnt exactly an Assault.
The Second Statement is Accurate if Read with the Knowledge in Mind that We all arent going to assume You mean KKW WTF TKD. Other Users did the same, and They werent being Rude, apparently.

For I am Clearly a Very Rude Person, who Misread Everything.


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