# Strong man and martial arts



## TigerLove (Mar 16, 2010)

How does this going together? I searched over the net, and didn't find any articles about this..

I believe that classic bodybuilding is bad for arts, because it learns your body to isolate muscles, instead of using them together.

But what is with strongman training, where all muscles in your body works all the time?

Exercises like truck tire rolling, farmer work, barrel throwing and so on - they are great for strength, but how they affect speed, reaction time, explosivity..

Anybody knows?


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## Nolerama (Mar 16, 2010)

In conjunction with a proper MA workout in an alive training environment, MA-oriented calisthenics/stretching, and sparring, I see no problem doing the exercised you've mentioned to increase explosive power/anaerobic cardio. You do that sort of thing prior to competition.

You can definitely get strong doing MA, but I think you're right in terms of bodybuilding and then going into the MAs. I've seen bodybuilders do well in striking ranges, but not above anyone else. No finesse in the clinch (they think their power compensates for proper mechanics... kind of like how some bodybuilders compensate for a lot of things by getting all beefy). And definitely no flexibility on the ground... Again, as pure bodybuilders going into the MAs.

Also, think about all that muscle! That's a lot of lactic acid buildup in a very short amount of time which means a quicker fatigue. I've seen body builders gas out faster than, say, the nerdy WoW-playing kid in live drilling.

But an athlete is an athlete, and that person will have to retool their body to go along with their training goals.


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## Draven (Mar 16, 2010)

I don't see anything wrong with classical wieght training, provided its done in conjunction with goal based training as well. For example, curls building bicepts & dip build tricepts (so push-ups). What muscle is primarily responsible for straightening your arm? Tricept & the bicept is chiefly responsible for bending your arm.

How many times do you bend & straighten your arm during punching drills & wouldn't develloping those muscles be a good idea as well? 

Now that benefit of isolating certain muscles can be viewed as a benefit the next issue is what do want to do; your muscles are made up of two groups; fast twitch and slow twitch. Fast twitch relates to sudden explosive power but slow twitch takes over as the endurance and long term exercise of the muscles kicks in.


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## Carol (Mar 16, 2010)

I think it all depends on the application.  I think there is a certain contingent of martial artists that take personal offense at bodybuilding and bodybuilders, which leads to some of the very critical reactions. 

I think like anything else, it is a matter of how the student applies themselves.  If a person spends 95% of their time on bodybuilding and 5% of their time on MA training and everything else...then yes, their training is going to suffer.

Not all bodybuilders compete.  The competitive body builders go through a cutting phase where they try to reduce the fat and water in their body at all costs, to give their muscles a more defined appearance.  The ironic part of this practice is it breaks down muscle tissue in the process, and may (depending on method) even be detrimental to the person's overall health.

However, bodybuilding can be an effective adjunct to a martial arts program.  There are so many activities that can benefit a martial artist....if the MAist does them on a regular basis, and if they balance it with their other goals.  

For the MAist to stick with it, it must be an activity that they enjoy doing.  Personally, I like to swim.  I see many other ladies in my club that may mention a dislike of swimming.  If a person dislikes swimming, bodybuilding, whatver, don't do it!   Find a fitness activity you can enjoy and stick with...whatever that may be.    I think strongman training is a great idea. It is not my cup of tea, but it certainly looks like like a great workout and a lot of fun.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2010)

http://img.listal.com/image/915698/500full-bolo-yeung.jpg


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## Carol (Mar 16, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


>


 
 

Not messin' with him.  I'd even give him my unbroken maglite if he asked....


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2010)

Carol said:


> Not messin' with him. I'd even give him my unbroken maglite if he asked....


 
I find that hard to believe, and I STILL won't tell you where I keep mine


Bolo Yeung


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## xJOHNx (Mar 16, 2010)

The difference lies in the exercices used. 
The difference between true isolation exercices and compound exercices.

Both of them will get you bigger, but in a different way. According to my experience compound exercices with a small amount of isolation exercices works best for MA's. Because most techniques in martial arts are not isolated to one joint as well.

Does flexibility mean you can't have big muscles? No.
Does big muscles mean you cannot succeed in ma? No.

It just depends on your level of dedication (as in almost everything). 

I do ninjutsu and weight training. My normal weight is 130 pounds. The last 4 years I'm at 160 pounds more or less.
I know of a guy at the rosstraining forum: he's a blackbelt TKD, can still kick very high, is flexible as he demonstrated some yoga positions and is a powerlifter as well. I believe Charles is his name or something similar.

Most of the times, the mind is the limit, not the body.


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## ap Oweyn (Mar 16, 2010)

Carol said:


> Not messin' with him. I'd even give him my unbroken maglite if he asked....


 
Bolo doesn't ask for your Maglite.  He just flexes his pecs and the Maglite magically appears in his possession.

Broken.


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## TigerLove (Mar 16, 2010)

This is video i found on youtube, which shows part of exercices i mentioned.

Today was the first time i tried this, after i felted pretty exhausted.

Also, it's pretty cool jumping around with concret blocks, tires, trees, on the fresh air. And, for me there is no way pulling around concret blocks without yellin, so it's also great way to check my kihap 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNHWVMwNSvE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEfqYRVeH2g&feature=related

And, i must mention something that's not so cool - pain in my back. I wasn't caution all the time, so i did few exercices wrong. At this type of training, it's not good to make mistakes.


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## David43515 (Mar 16, 2010)

Historically most of the successfull fighters in martial arts did some kind of strength training. And there are some techniques that simply won`t work if you aren`t strong enough to do them correctly. 

I don`t want to argue about power vs finess. That`s a losing game because both are vital to success and one w/o the other won`t get you anywhere. But if the OP was asking about isolation exercises vs compound exercises.....I`d say you need a blend, but always favor compound exercises. The coordination they teach is much more useful in the longrun.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 17, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> http://img.listal.com/image/915698/500full-bolo-yeung.jpg



Very good. But brick not hit back!


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## Steve (Mar 17, 2010)

Look at Rosstraining.com.  That's just one site dedicated to helping people become strong, explosive and athletic through low-tech, caveman, strong man type workouts.  Pulling sleds, lifting bags and developing coordinated power are the goals.

Many MMA gyms swear by this sort of thing and the workouts are often balanced between the weight room, kettle ball training and some amount of caveman style training (and a ton of cardio).  

If your question is whether this sort of training can be beneficial, I'd say without a doubt that it can be tremendously helpful. 

If you're asking whether the typical strongman could be good at martial arts, that's a different discussion entirely.  I'd say that it depends upon the style.  

Steve


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## TigerLove (Mar 17, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> If your question is whether this sort of training can be beneficial, I'd say without a doubt that it can be tremendously helpful.
> 
> If you're asking whether the typical strongman could be good at martial arts, that's a different discussion entirely.  I'd say that it depends upon the style.
> 
> Steve



Yes, my question was the first case of this two you mentioned. I remember, while working with my friends in forest, carryng lumbers around maked me so strong, it was unbelieveable.

About second case, you are right, that's different discussion.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 17, 2010)

Two very famous martial arts figures who advocated body building.  The first was Bruce Lee.  The second was Dolph Lundgren.
Neither man lacked in skill, flexibility or power and I doubt that either was compensating.

Daniel


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## bowser666 (Mar 17, 2010)

xue sheng said:


> http://img.listal.com/image/915698/500full-bolo-yeung.jpg



you............are....................next !!


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## Steve (Mar 17, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Two very famous martial arts figures who advocated body building. The first was Bruce Lee. The second was Dolph Lundgren.
> Neither man lacked in skill, flexibility or power and I doubt that either was compensating.
> 
> Daniel


Wait. Are we talking body building or strength training?  

Bodybuilders often look strong, but aren't.  As with most things, bodybuilding as a sport has a very specific aesthetic.  It's a funny thing, but the strongest bodybuilders often have very weak cores, intentionally.  The thicker and stronger their obliques, the less pronounced the taper through their waist. So, while they can push a lot of weight on a rack, their actual, functional strength is pretty low.  Add to this that they are often dangerously dehydrated and weak at exactly the time they are theoretically looking their best, during a competition.  

In contrast, guys like Magnus Ver Magnusson are thick through their core and train for power, strength and explosiveness.  I was reading an article by Bas Rutten who said something like, "Look guys.  We're not training for the beach.  We're training to be strong."


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 17, 2010)

Neither man was/is a body builder, but both did body building as part of their training, and I believe that both men were/are outspoken about it.  Lee was very obviously body building in addition to whatever else he did.  Lundgren has openly stated that he does some body building.  In fact he had to for Masters of the Universe in order to 'look like He-Man.'  And I don't think that anyone would classify either man as having been built just for show.

Also, at one point, in Austria, Schwarzenegger held some kind of stone lifting record.  Schwarzenegger was known to be very, very functionally strong in his prime.

As a general rule, I would think that body builders would have the same issues transitioning from one endeavor to another as anyone else would.  Training methods would need to be adjusted, diet perhaps changed, and of course, the openness to learning must be there.  Anyone, body builder or not, who muscles through technique rather than doing it correctly simply because they can (or think that they can) is going to develop bad habits and progress more slowly.

But then don't all beginners have some kind of baggage that must be dealt with?  

At least with a body builder, basic fitness is already taken care of and the benefits of strength training are well understood, which is not always the case for many in the arts, even some who are highly accomplished instructors.

I think that most body builders understand that there is a difference between training for competition and strength training.  Most train differently when preparing for competition than when they are just 'working out' in between.

Daniel


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 17, 2010)

Lundgren was I believe a kick boxer first.

The only issue I have ever run across with a body builder was that the appear to hold their center too high and they are easily up rooted.


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## repz (Mar 17, 2010)

Compound exercises are the best workout for any sports (compound are usually strength exercises), thats why its the common workout plan for many athletes across many sports. When it comes to movement, be it charging an offensive line, or training sprawls, you use more then one muscle, so it would make sense to train them in the same fashion. Since compound uses more than one muscle, they allow you to lift more, which means you increase strength faster, and in more realistic proportion since these workouts are usually everday movements that can relate to other physical activities im sports and ma.

But, compound workouts do have their flaws. A bench press is known to hit chest (more of chest obviously), triceps and shoulders mostly, but many still need shoulder presses to force the shoulders to catch up, since a large part of the tension isnt hit by all the muscles at the same range of time. So, isolation is good if its to target lagging muscles, good examples are calves, which (for some, like myself) usually are hard to grow with leg workouts.

A common mistake in martial arts is that working out restricts flexibility. This is not true, its actually the opposite, since a rep usually flexes and stretches the muscle during the movement. Having huge size can hinder flexibility, which is another matter entirely, and even this has its exceptions (I'm pretty muscular to stand out on the beach, and I am inches from a full split).

Best workout is to do bursts workouts. Like training with a set time frame, for example, finishing a set within 40 seconds. This trains the body in releasing a huge burst of strength and endurance for quick bursts, and to rest, to repeat the process, which is good for wrestling, and point karate. Also, circuit training is good, it builds the above, but with more overal cardio/endurance training.

I changed to a strength training workout to add more power to my karate. Once my power numbers go up, i will switch to supersets (which is two sets done back to back) with more cardio since the higher in belt i go, the more people i am expected to fight back to back. I have to do what I can, considering I am one of the shortest people in my dojo.


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## repz (Mar 17, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Bodybuilders often look strong, but aren't. As with most things, bodybuilding as a sport has a very specific aesthetic.


 
Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is to blame. They dont have as much real world strength as the strength guys lifting trucks. 

The guys lifting trucks do have huge muscles, but with big guts and layers of fat engulfing their huge muscles. Obviously, it doesnt look appealing, but if they burned the fat, they would look at the same beastly level as a bodybuilder, but with realistic relations to strength.


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## Steve (Mar 17, 2010)

Daniel, I think we are getting our signals a little crossed.  When you say bodybuilding, I think specifically about the sport. And just for what it's worth, based upon what I've learned of it from friends who did it, it's about the most unhealthy "fitness" activity around.  The pursuit of very specific lines and muscle development coupled with a crazy low body fat is terribly unhealthy.  Add steroids and hgh to the mix and it just gets worse.   

So weight lifting and strentgh training are good but body building is bad.  I think it's just semantics.


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## Draven (Mar 18, 2010)

Yeah I keep seeing it as a too brawd a stroke there myself...
Daniel, may I ask what exactly are you talking about with body building..? I know 3 major forms of body building;
1. The sport of body building; which stevebjj has done well enough explaining...
2. Strength Training; which is using body wieght & wieght lifting exercises to get stronger & build endurance...
3. Fittness Training; which uses  reistance exercises, wieght training, cardio & flexibility conditioning to improve health in general.

As for Lee being a body builder well yes and no; Lee was an advocate of fittness training and did allot of cardio. However, Lee never tried to "sculpt his body" into a specific form. In fact looking at a picture of Lee from"Bruce Lee's Fighting Method" Lee wasn't very big or as pronounced as any "body builders" of his time or now...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 18, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Daniel, I think we are getting our signals a little crossed.  When you say bodybuilding, I think specifically about the *sport*.


I had mentioned Lee and Lundgren because I believe Lee, but definitely  Lundgren specifically stated that they did "body building", though you  are correct: I am referring to it in the general sense, not as the competitive sense. 

Both men did/do a fair amount of body sculpting, and the look that Lee  had and Lundgren has, even into his fifties, is not one that you would  get without at least some isolation training.  But I think that the bulk  of what both men did was geared towards the practical and isolation training was used to develop their looks for the screen.



stevebjj said:


> And just for what it's worth, based upon what I've learned of it from friends who did it, it's about the most unhealthy "fitness" activity around.  The pursuit of very specific lines and muscle development coupled with a crazy low body fat is terribly unhealthy.  Add steroids and hgh to the mix and it just gets worse.


Roids and HGH are not specific to body building, but body building is certainly the most famous for it.  Lots of unhealthy practices in competition body building.  Last muscle fitness mag I picked up was good for an afternoon of, frankly puzzlement.  Years back when I followed it and regularly read Muscle Fitness, the contestants all looked like Greek sculpture.  Now?  They look like Bane from the last Burton era Batman flick.  Honestly, it made me wonder if they know how they _really_ look.

By the way, I do not consider body building a sport.  I still remember a time when nobody else did either.  Body building is a physique focused beauty pageant.  Aside from the (at this point) freaky looking physiques, the competition is also decided by how well the contestants can pose, the selection and sequence of poses and the way in which one pose transitions into another, at least that is what is was like when I followed it years ago.  A top body builder, provided he or she had the flexibility and trained correctly, would probably do well in poomsae/kata in terms of visual presentation.



stevebjj said:


> So weight lifting and strength training are good but body building is bad.  I think it's just semantics.


One can build their body through weight lifting and strength training.  But body-building the competitive activity is distinct.  One is form, the other is function.  

Daniel


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## Steve (Mar 18, 2010)

I think I understand where you're coming from, Daniel.  I think that it's clearly a sport in that it's a competitive activity that is physical in which there is a winner and a loser that's not predetermined.  

Regarding the way they look, I've thought about that, too and think I can in a small way relate to it.  In grappling, I'll admit that 20 years ago I would have thought that cauliflower ear was really ugly.  Now, though, I just don't think it's that big a deal.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 18, 2010)

Draven said:


> Yeah I keep seeing it as a too brawd a stroke there myself...
> Daniel, may I ask what exactly are you talking about with body building..? I know 3 major forms of body building;
> 1. The sport of body building; which stevebjj has done well enough explaining...
> 2. Strength Training; which is using body wieght & wieght lifting exercises to get stronger & build endurance...
> ...


Just a clarification: Lee and Lungren were not body builders, but did use of isolation training to sculpt their bodies.  Lee was actually quite pronounced for the era (early seventies) for a guy who wasn't a pro body builder.  

Where I am coming from is using the term loosely to describe two and/or three with incorporation of some isolation training for the purpose of sculpting.

Personally, I would love to see an actual body builder join the class.  Mainly out of curiosity and because it would look cool.  My feeling is that if the guy or gal could leave the narcissism and ego at the door and not see the arts as a contest of strength, he or she could be an excellent student.  Certainly, a competitive body builder has the drive to train hard and diligently, which is a quality that many students of the arts could use a bit more of.

And it would be kind of cool to see a Jay Cutler looking guy practicing poomsae.

Daniel


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## Em MacIntosh (Mar 18, 2010)

Sometimes body building (not the 2%-body-fat-sport but rather the concentration on making muscles bigger and stronger) is the only way to move beyond a plateau.  You have to exaggerate the demand in order to force your body to adapt to the artificial circumstances or your progress might taper off to the point where improvement seems insignificant.  Technique isn't everything, it's just how you make the most of your brute force.  Generally a larger muscle is a faster muscle and has the strength to make more precise movements without getting "shaky" but they also burn a proportianately larger amount of energy .  Functionality is the key and you have to find your personal sweet spot.  You also have to choose whether you want to run with your genetic pre-disposition or round of the natural weak spots instead.  To do both goes without saying as overlap is unavoidable but overall you choose where to concentrate your efforts.  You may not choose what will pay off more for the amount of effort you put in and your goals might not be fully in line with your natural abilities.  This can be discouraging if you're used to rapid progress.


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## Draven (Mar 18, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Just a clarification: Lee and Lungren were not body builders, but did use of isolation training to sculpt their bodies. Lee was actually quite pronounced for the era (early seventies) for a guy who wasn't a pro body builder.


 
Actually I'm gonna have to ask for a source on that or call BS, Lee never tried to scuplt his body, but he was scuplted. Of course Lee used a lot of cardio, combined with wieght lifting, isometrics and body wieght calisthenics. But, Lee's focus was on being fit & while Lee had a "six pack" he also had very developped oblics which gave him a very powerful core area. By contrast, many body builders have weaker oblics to make their waist appear more trimmed.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Where I am coming from is using the term loosely to describe two and/or three with incorporation of some isolation training for the purpose of sculpting.


 
Scuplting isn't good, you can get a sculpted appearance from a lot of cardio and wieght training. Also isolation exercises don't sculpt you, they do concentrate the force along a sprecific muscle or muscle group. A push-up, pull-up and a dip can be considered an isolation exercise as they isolate specific muscles & muscle groups. Sculpting is done using any exercise via phases; a building period, toning period, cardio period & a resting/recovery period. Isolation exercises just build muscle in specific muscles and are used by Body Builders to build specific muscles for appearance; but the exercises alone do not establish a sculpted appearance.


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## repz (Mar 19, 2010)

A natural bodybuilder (no roids) who has an amazing body that many here claim as "sculpted", reached that point by burning off the fat, which has the appearance of stretching the skin around the body as fat is removed (showing off the muscles). The process of burning fat is done usually by supersets or circuit training, or cardio, or other intensive fat burning workouts. So, bascially, these men not only lift (even with sacroplasmic that i pointed out) they still recieve vast amounts of strength then a non bodybuilder, and they endured serious hours of cardio and cardio-like workouts, which builds endurance and cardiovascular strength (which has many reasons for a martial artists, and for life itself), to burn the fat to attain such phsyiques.

So sculpting isnt bad, its actually a result from both strength and burning fat. Youd be suprised how long and intensive a nat bodybuilder can jog, which shows how powerful their endurance level is.


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## Steve (Mar 19, 2010)

repz said:


> A natural bodybuilder (no roids) who has an amazing body that many here claim as "sculpted", reached that point by burning off the fat, which has the appearance of stretching the skin around the body as fat is removed (showing off the muscles). The process of burning fat is done usually by supersets or circuit training, or cardio, or other intensive fat burning workouts. So, bascially, these men not only lift (even with sacroplasmic that i pointed out) they still recieve vast amounts of strength then a non bodybuilder, and they endured serious hours of cardio and cardio-like workouts, which builds endurance and cardiovascular strength (which has many reasons for a martial artists, and for life itself), to burn the fat to attain such phsyiques.
> 
> So sculpting isnt bad, its actually a result from both strength and burning fat. Youd be suprised how long and intensive a nat bodybuilder can jog, which shows how powerful their endurance level is.


Once again, I think we're getting mixed up here.  "Sculpting" in order to be successful in body building competitions can actually lead to an illusion of health that isn't there.  Personally, I don't doubt that many of the training techniques are very good.  It's the goal that's suspect... the body image.  

http://www.recipezaar.com/members/home/58382/Joe.jpg

This guy is a body builder.  Joe the body builder.  I just picked him out of a bing image list because he doesn't look completely out of sorts.  We can all find images that are grotesque exaggarations, but I think this guy represents what many would call a "balanced" body building ideal.  Not completely over the top.

http://www.born2bbig.com/viewpic.php?im=images/profilepics/1151469653.jpg

That's randy couture.  Both are big guys.  Both lift weights, work a lot of cardio, have a low BF% and are, in their own ways, sculpting a physique.  Who do you think is stronger?  I'd put my money on Randy Couture for functional strength.  His core is so much more developed, so while his arms and legs aren't as big, his body is much, much stronger through the core.  This makes couture look thicker through the middle, which isn't desirable in a body building competition.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with Repz or Draven.  I really think we're all saying the same things, just from two different directions, and we're getting hung up on terms like "bodybuilding" and "sculpting".  Just to make it clear where I'm at once again, I think of bodybuilding as the sport... sort of like MMA is the sport.


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## repz (Mar 19, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Once again, I think we're getting mixed up here. "Sculpting" in order to be successful in body building competitions can actually lead to an illusion of health that isn't there. Personally, I don't doubt that many of the training techniques are very good. It's the goal that's suspect... the body image.
> 
> http://www.recipezaar.com/members/home/58382/Joe.jpg
> 
> ...


 
Huh? I dont understand your example. I posted sacroplasmic hypertrphy which was the nail in the coffin for your arguement aganist the other poster about functional strength, meaning i agreed.

You quoted me where I said "sculpting" is actually burning fat, which is cardio-like workouts, which build endurance and other positive attributes. Unless you take drugs, you have to burn the fat the hard way, and basically spend hours circuit training, or jogging, which means natural bodybuilders have very high endurance. PLUS have a healthy diet to not gather unhealthy fat. This goes for both natural bodybuilding, boxing, whoever that wants to burn fat, replace the extra lbs with muscles, and still stay in their weight category.

That was my point, it was to state how loose the term "sculpting" is being thrown around (which it appears to be mis-stated as the appearance of ripped muscles) as if its evil or somehow is something alien to health, yet to attain such sculpted muscles requires the endurance type training to burn the layers of fat over the muscles, thats all. Look at George St peirre, amazing sculpted body, and hes like the main advocate of circuit-like training in this day and age.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 19, 2010)

sculpt

1.Fine Arts. to carve, model, or make by using the techniques of sculpture. 

2.to form, shape, or manipulate, as in the manner of sculpture:


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## Steve (Mar 19, 2010)

repz said:


> Huh? I dont understand your example. I posted sacroplasmic hypertrphy which was the nail in the coffin for your arguement aganist the other poster about functional strength, meaning i agreed.
> 
> You quoted me where I said "sculpting" is actually burning fat, which is cardio-like workouts, which build endurance and other positive attributes. Unless you take drugs, you have to burn the fat the hard way, and basically spend hours circuit training, or jogging, which means natural bodybuilders have very high endurance. PLUS have a healthy diet to not gather unhealthy fat. This goes for both natural bodybuilding, boxing, whoever that wants to burn fat, replace the extra lbs with muscles, and still stay in their weight category.
> 
> That was my point, it was to state how loose the term "sculpting" is being thrown around (which it appears to be mis-stated as the appearance of ripped muscles) as if its evil or somehow is something alien to health, yet to attain such sculpted muscles requires the endurance type training to burn the layers of fat over the muscles, thats all. Look at George St peirre, amazing sculpted body, and hes like the main advocate of circuit-like training in this day and age.


First, on a practical level "drugs" are really just "supplements" that are illegal.   But that's a different discussion.  GSP and everyone of those guys takes supplements to aid in everything from lean muscle development to explosive power to metabolic stimulants and everything in between.  Whether or not they cycle HGH in combination with some kind of steroid cocktail, they are all taking something.

But, as for the rest, I guess I can't help you.  I've said repeatedly that I think we're using the same terms in different ways and that we're not communicating as a result.  I've then tried to define the way I'm using the terms.  I still don't think any of us are saying anything very different, but maybe I'm wrong.  That said, I'm not sure where I quoted you as saying that sculpting is simply burning fat and agreeing with that.  I've been wrong before, though.


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## repz (Mar 19, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> First, on a practical level "drugs" are really just "supplements" that are illegal. But that's a different discussion. GSP and everyone of those guys takes supplements to aid in everything from lean muscle development to explosive power to metabolic stimulants and everything in between. Whether or not they cycle HGH in combination with some kind of steroid cocktail, they are all taking something.
> 
> But, as for the rest, I guess I can't help you. I've said repeatedly that I think we're using the same terms in different ways and that we're not communicating as a result. I've then tried to define the way I'm using the terms. I still don't think any of us are saying anything very different, but maybe I'm wrong. That said, I'm not sure where I quoted you as saying that sculpting is simply burning fat and agreeing with that. I've been wrong before, though.


 
If you add GSP to that list of using chemicals, wouldnt it be fair to add Couture in your example as well? 

The quote I was mentioning was the post you did before this. My post was about how to created a tight body and the hardship to gain it, not a disagreement over functional strength which your post seemed to be leading to. I guess you thought I was supporting whoever you were debating, which I dont do unless i quote you directly (a better example of power without rippiness is matt hughes and fedor, both have bulky bodies but arent cut, but they are strong like bears). Only thing I disagreed to is saying that sculpting as you put it, " is not good", which I believe isnt true because the act of defining the muscle is from endurance and cardio workouts (which have tons of benefits, and i see as good), which i believe you did say in one of your posts anyway where you mentioned cardio over isolation for "sculpting". Everything else, I agree to, lol.

Maybe it was a bit of misunderstanding. I personaly train people as a side job and hobby, and theres so many misconceptions that I might be picking out what I might be misunderstanding as inconsistencies in posts.


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## Steve (Mar 19, 2010)

repz said:


> If you add GSP to that list of using chemicals, wouldnt it be fair to add Couture in your example as well?


Absolutely.   I've never taken a position that they don't all use some kind of supplements.  I was specifically commenting on your assertion that if they don't cycle anabolic steroids, they're just relying on good old fashioned hard work and sweat.  You said, "Unless you take drugs, you have to burn the fat the hard way, and basically spend hours circuit training, or jogging, which means natural bodybuilders have very high endurance."  

That's a gross oversimplification of the subject.  They're ALL taking supplements that help with every aspect of their training.  But even "natural" bodybuilders take supplements to maximize their training performance.  The point I was making is that there is a fundamental distinction between the bodybuilder and someone like GSP or Couture, and it isn't steroids.  The difference between Couture and a professional bodybuilder is that Couture is working specifically to increase functional strength while a bodybuilder is focusing on acheiving an aesthetic "ideal" often at odds with functional performance.    

And once again, I'm less concerned with whether we're using the term "sculpting" or "bodybuilding" or whatever as long as we all understand what is meant.  I believe that the crux of the last 10 posts in this thread is in getting hung up on semantics.   So, ultimately, if you disagree with me, it's all good... as long as you understand what I'm saying and I understand what you're saying.  


> The quote I was mentioning was the post you did before this. My post was about how to created a tight body and the hardship to gain it, not a disagreement over functional strength which your post seemed to be leading to. I guess you thought I was supporting whoever you were debating, which I dont do unless i quote you directly (a better example of power without rippiness is matt hughes and fedor, both have bulky bodies but arent cut, but they are strong like bears).


No problem.  I thought about those guys, but really was trying to show an example of the fundamental difference between strength training and bodybuilding.  Couture was a good example, in my opinion, specifically because you can see that in spite of a developed physique and low body fat, he would never win any kind of bodybuilding competition because he hasn't pursued that aesthetic ideal.  





> Only thing I disagreed to is saying that sculpting as you put it, " is not good", which I believe isnt true because the act of defining the muscle is from endurance and cardio workouts (which have tons of benefits, and i see as good), which i believe you did say in one of your posts anyway where you mentioned cardio over isolation for "sculpting". Everything else, I agree to, lol.


I'm totally cool with this.  As you're using the term, I can see your point.





> Maybe it was a bit of misunderstanding. I personaly train people as a side job and hobby, and theres so many misconceptions that I might be picking out what I might be misunderstanding as inconsistencies in posts.


I figured that was the case.  Again, and I've said it before, I don't think that you, Draven Daniel or I are saying anything too different.  I just think we're getting signals crossed based upon subtle differences in how we're using specific terms.


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## repz (Mar 19, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Absolutely. I've never taken a position that they don't all use some kind of supplements. I was specifically commenting on your assertion that if they don't cycle anabolic steroids, they're just relying on good old fashioned hard work and sweat. You said, "Unless you take drugs, you have to burn the fat the hard way, and basically spend hours circuit training, or jogging, which means natural bodybuilders have very high endurance."


 
Yes, they do do it the hardway. Everyone uses supplements, even mma, even in the 1930's before steroids when they just drank more milk and raw eggs. But steriods is a worlds difference from whats avialable in supplements, and natural bodybuilders go under more tests than mma. To use steroids, you can triple your gains and keep you in an unnatural state of constant muscle building where the normal human body can no longer produce testerone after an hr of working out or so depending on genes, theres not a product in the shelves that can do that, if anything there is more rip offs and misleading products. And if you still disagree with bodybuilders, which I was never really supporting in my posts, I just used them as an example of what work needed to be put in to attain that body, then old school karatekas and kung fu stylists have had ripped muscles. A body cant get ripped on any supplement unless it modified your bodies make up like steriod does, if that werent true, then all those fake "weight loss" pills would be true, or the ones that work would be legal and not kill you in a week.

Maybe a better example would be someone who has a career in endurance. Theres no surprise that they look ripped, even the skinny ones have visible abs and muscles. Even martial artists who dont lift can look ripped from fat burning.

Basically, it sums up to how to attain a ripped body. And thats through endurance/fat burning, and regardless of whatever profession, it is a positive benefit. Fat burning eliminates the layer to make whats under it visible.




> That's a gross oversimplification of the subject. They're ALL taking supplements that help with every aspect of their training. But even "natural" bodybuilders take supplements to maximize their training performance. The point I was making is that there is a fundamental distinction between the bodybuilder and someone like GSP or Couture, and it isn't steroids. The difference between Couture and a professional bodybuilder is that Couture is working specifically to increase functional strength while a bodybuilder is focusing on acheiving an aesthetic "ideal" often at odds with functional performance.
> 
> And once again, I'm less concerned with whether we're using the term "sculpting" or "bodybuilding" or whatever as long as we all understand what is meant. I believe that the crux of the last 10 posts in this thread is in getting hung up on semantics. So, ultimately, if you disagree with me, it's all good... as long as you understand what I'm saying and I understand what you're saying. No problem. I thought about those guys, but really was trying to show an example of the fundamental difference between strength training and bodybuilding. Couture was a good example, in my opinion, specifically because you can see that in spite of a developed physique and low body fat, he would never win any kind of bodybuilding competition because he hasn't pursued that aesthetic ideal. I'm totally cool with this. As you're using the term, I can see your point.I figured that was the case. Again, and I've said it before, I don't think that you, Draven Daniel or I are saying anything too different. I just think we're getting signals crossed based upon subtle differences in how we're using specific terms.


 
I know what you meant, and again, I said I agree with the lack of functional strength. This was from an earlier post.



> Originally Posted by *stevebjj*
> 
> 
> _Bodybuilders often look strong, but aren't. As with most things, bodybuilding as a sport has a very specific aesthetic._
> ...


 
So I dont see the confusion, or the need to keep stating functional strength if I said this before you started even quoting me. I was stating that 'sculpting' is good, its a byproduct of endurance and cardio workouts, regardless if you agrue about bodybuilders or not, thats all.

It doesnt mean i expect bodybuilders to fight. Like i said in my earlier posts, i am an advocate of strength training over bodybuilding. But I do burn a lot of fat in kyokushin, and my body is looking ripped as hell from it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 19, 2010)

http://www.mmamania.com/2010/3/16/1375974/mma-quick-quote-worlds-strongest

Five-time World's Strongest Man, Mariusz Pudzianowski, tells Fighter's Only that he's signed on to face former UFC Heavyweight Champion Tim Sylvia at the upcoming Moosin event on April 23 in Worcester -- despite already being booked to fight for Polish promotion KSW on May 7.


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## Steve (Mar 19, 2010)

Repz, I'll try to keep it simple. So, without going into specifics, unless I just don't understand the thrust of your points at all, you and I agree, but for some reason keep arguing about it.


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## repz (Mar 20, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> http://www.mmamania.com/2010/3/16/1375974/mma-quick-quote-worlds-strongest
> 
> Five-time World's Strongest Man, Mariusz Pudzianowski, tells Fighter's Only that he's signed on to face former UFC Heavyweight Champion Tim Sylvia at the upcoming Moosin event on April 23 in Worcester -- despite already being booked to fight for Polish promotion KSW on May 7.


 
What the?

How long is this guy fighting? It says in the link hes 1-0, yet he gets to come to the ufc and face a former heavyweight champion?

UFC reminds me of WWE, where celebrities in other sports, and other media, get to have the spotlight cast on them despite their young up incoming talent. I'm not going to lie though, im curious to see what happens.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 20, 2010)

Draven said:


> Actually I'm gonna have to ask for a source on that or call BS, Lee never tried to scuplt his body, but he was scuplted. Of course Lee used a lot of cardio, combined with wieght lifting, isometrics and body wieght calisthenics. But, Lee's focus was on being fit & while Lee had a "six pack" he also had very developped oblics which gave him a very powerful core area. By contrast, many body builders have weaker oblics to make their waist appear more trimmed.



Sources:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dolph_lundgren_interview.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee

The following quote is from the above wikipedia link.

_"After his match with Wong Jack Man in 1965, Lee changed his approach toward martial arts training. Lee felt that many martial artists of his day did not spend enough time on physical conditioning. Bruce included all elements of total fitness&#8212;muscular strength, muscular endurance, cardiovascular endurance, and flexibility. *He tried traditional bodybuilding techniques to build bulky muscles or mass.* However, Lee was careful to admonish that mental and spiritual preparation was fundamental to the success of physical training in martial arts skills."_ 

Please note that I never said that Lee was a body build*er* but that he used body build*ing* as a part of his fitness training as noted above.  The wiki is not the only place that I have read this.  



Draven said:


> Scuplting isn't good, *you can get a sculpted appearance from a lot of cardio and wieght training.* Also isolation exercises don't sculpt you, they do concentrate the force along a sprecific muscle or muscle group. A push-up, pull-up and a dip can be considered an isolation exercise as they isolate specific muscles & muscle groups. Sculpting is done using any exercise via phases; a building period, toning period, cardio period & a resting/recovery period. Isolation exercises just build muscle in specific muscles and are used by Body Builders to build specific muscles for appearance; but the exercises alone do not establish a sculpted appearance.


Bolded part is what I meant by sculpting.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 20, 2010)

repz said:


> What the?
> 
> How long is this guy fighting? It says in the link hes 1-0, yet he gets to come to the ufc and face a former heavyweight champion?
> 
> *UFC reminds me of WWE*, where celebrities in other sports, and other media, get to have the spotlight cast on them despite their young up incoming talent. I'm not going to lie though, im curious to see what happens.


That should not be surprising.  The UFC has assumed the position of the WWE and is marketing itself accordingly.

Daniel


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## buldog (Mar 21, 2010)

I feel that strength training can be very beneficial to a MAist.  However, it is important to maintain your flexibility as you gain muscle.  Keep in mind it takes years of training to get to freakish sizes so adding powerlifting to your routine is not going to turn you into Arnold overnight.  Keep it within reason and don't get too bulked up.  As stated in previous posts, larger muscles consume more energy faster and can negatively impact your endurance.  Bodybuilding should be avoided unless your main goal is to try and impress the girls at the beach.  I started out in powerlifting at a very young age and dabled with bodybuilding briefly.  I just couldn't handle the dieting necessary to reduce the body fat and generally felt terrible the whole time.

Draven, the tricep is the main muscle for straightening the arm and the bicep bends it.  The rear head of the tricep is usually very difficult for most people to develop so it requires isolation training in order make any significant impact on it (ie. the horseshoe look ).

Mariusz is a former bodybuilder turned powerlifter (so much for the lack of functional strength) and unlike most guys his size he has great flexibility.  he can drop into a full split with ease.  He also has been studying martial arts for many years.  He is 1-0 after a fight against a guy in Poland.  I saw this fight on Youtube. He was very stiff and robotic but he had some devastating leg kicks.  He has a long way to go to be a good fighter but his massive strength would allow him to beat most of the lower echelon fighters out there.  As for the show in Worchester.  It is being put on by a relative unknown promoter not the UFC and he most likely set up the rumor just to hype his show.  It seems like a majority of people equate all MMA with the UFC.  They have stayed away from WWE type antics (except for Lesner's rant after the fight with Mir).  Although I am very puzzled why they signed Toney recently.  While a great boxer, he has no MMA training whatsoever but that is another thread. 

In a nutshell.  Do your strength training.  Throw in some pliometrics for explosiveness.  Maintain your flexibility. 

My .02  Scott


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## geezer (Mar 21, 2010)

First, a thanks to the definition of "sculpting" provided above by Xue. I really think if we all would really think about what the other guy is trying to say rather than obsessing about how we personally believe a word should be used, a lot of needless argumentation could be eliminated. 

As for "sculpting", I earned and MFA in the field, and I think of it as using addition, subtraction, manipulation (modeling) or substitution (casting) to create a three-dimensional form as a work of art (ie for purely _aesthetic_ as compared to functional reasons). Bodybuilding certainly fits this traditional definition. The human body is literally sculpted through addititive (hypertrophy) and subtractive (cutting) methods to achieve a particular _aesthetic ideal_. I believe the point that Steve BJJ was making was simply that the peculiar aesthetic of bodybuilding only loosely approximates the functional form of champion fighters like Couture. In fact, pursuing a bodybuilder's _aesthetic objectives_ is not the most direct path to a functional fighting physique. 



buldog said:


> I feel that strength training can be very beneficial to a MAist.  However, it is important to maintain your flexibility as you gain muscle...  In a nutshell.  Do your strength training.  Throw in some pliometrics for explosiveness.  *Maintain your flexibility.*  My .02  Scott



I really think the role of "strong-man" stuff depends on the art you practice and the goals you want to achieve. Referencing the quote above, it can be a a challenge to stay light, quick and flexible while pursuing a weight training regimen, especially if you are driven to bulk-up. I practice Wing Chun and also enjoy lifting. The two do not easily co-exist. For WC we need light, elastic strength and _upper body_ flexibility. The fact that many bodybuilder types can kick high or do splits says nothing to the issue of upper-body flexibility and range of movement issues. If your chest is huge, it's physically impossible to put your elbow on centerline. Or if your lats are like slabs of beef, try doing double rear gum-sau (both arms extended straight back behind you... no can do!) If you have massive biceps, doing hundreds of quick, snapping chain-punches will be as hard as driving with the brakes on. And try doing a hour of chi-sau with arms that weigh a ton. Good Lord... pure agony! And your chi-sau will stink besides. So I'm cutting back on my weights a bit, going for a bit more time with bodyweight, core and cardio. while I try to find a _functional_ balance.


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