# Does your WC Sifu Freak-out...



## geezer (Mar 4, 2008)

Would your Sifu totally freak if you wanted to train with some guys from a different WC/WT/VT branch? Or would he encourage you to look around and gain a broader experience? If you were planning a trip and wanted to visit some different schools while you were away, how would your Sifu respond?


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## KamonGuy2 (Mar 5, 2008)

geezer said:


> Would your Sifu totally freak if you wanted to train with some guys from a different WC/WT/VT branch? Or would he encourage you to look around and gain a broader experience? If you were planning a trip and wanted to visit some different schools while you were away, how would your Sifu respond?


I guess it is totally dependent on who your Sifu is and who he has upset in the past!!
Generally my Sifu encourages going to other wing chun seminars etc, although I am sure he would get upset if I started training somewhere else more than I did under him!!

My students are always welcome at other dojos although I keep an eye on it in case they choose a bad school or one where students are bullied etc

I personally love going to seminas taught by other WC guys. James Sinclair regulalry holds open seminars, as well as Alan Gibson/Alan Orr. 

It is good to understand different points of view about wing chun and then decide what works for you


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## tenth1 (Mar 5, 2008)

my sifu has expressed to many of his students that it is always good to look around and see what else or who else is out there, he has always appeared non judgemental to me. though i havnt had the urge to train with anyone else.


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## geezer (Mar 5, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> I guess it is totally dependent on who your Sifu is and who he has upset in the past!!
> Generally my Sifu encourages going to other wing chun seminars etc, although I am sure he would get upset if I started training somewhere else more than I did under him!!
> 
> My students are always welcome at other dojos although I keep an eye on it in case they choose a bad school or one where students are bullied etc
> ...


 
Well that's pretty much how I see it too. The reason I posed this question is because of what happened to a training partner of mine. He went to NYC on an extended trip, and while he was there he visited another WC school. He politely identified himself and his lineage, and arranged to train with them for a couple of weeks as a guest student. He really enjoyed the experience and told his Sifu about it when he returned home. The Sifu went ballistic. Apparently he considered this an affront to his prestige. What a bunch of BS. What do you think?


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## almost a ghost (Mar 6, 2008)

I've experienced the "wrath" (aka immaturity and ego) of my instructor's former sifu.

My instructor and a few of his KF brothers decided to leave this particular org. They, and myself, found a master that was willing to train us and was under the same grand master of the former sifu (who is also a master).

When the former sifu found out he cried and complained to the GM that this other master stole "his students" even though publicly stated they no longer wished to be associated with him. Fortunately nothing came of his bitching.

About two years later my instructor's friend has the new master fly in for a seminar. Well, the spies were out and students of the old sifu called him and told him what we were up to (we were spotted at Applebee's! LOL). The old sifu calls the new master that night and starts grilling him for information but gets far less than what his spies told him, even goes as far as to drive up 4hrs the next day and wait outside our friend's house where we were having the seminar to confront him.

During some private training a few months after that with the new master I learned that the old sifu called the GM again and complained about "stealing his students".

Bottom line was that the old sifu was pissed because he felt like that particular region was "his territory" and that any money being spent on WC that wasn't going to him was the same thing as stealing from him.


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## BFL (Mar 6, 2008)

My Sifu has encouraged me many times in the past to work out with other 'Chunners.  At the time of my training under him I was experiencing some  paralysis on my right side and found Chi Sao and other drills difficult to practice pain free and consistantly when I was there.  I've sinced moved away and my condition has improved dramatically for many reasons and he has actually encouraged me to go other places, be humble and respectful, state my reasons honostly and train, train, train..learn, grow etc., main point for me was to improve and for my W.C. to grow.  Even when I was living near him he let me know that going elsewhere was cool with him, he was always layed back and mellow, realizing that trying to control others, would eventually push them away.  I am sure he would have been hurt had I left his tutelage to train full time elsewhere but his Kung Fu was awesome and he was so cool and such a good friend, why would I?  For this and many other reasons, I will train with other Sifu's and people, but he shall always my (final) SiFu and great friend.


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## geezer (Mar 7, 2008)

almost a ghost said:


> Bottom line was that the old sifu was pissed because he felt like that particular region was "his territory" and that any money being spent on WC that wasn't going to him was the same thing as stealing from him.


 
Sounds a lot like the attitude my friend was dealing with. The really stupid thing is that the generous and open-minded Sifus usually are more successful at getting and retaining students. There are some 300 million people in the US. Our competition isn't the WC guy on the other side of town, or the BJJ guy, it's every other recreational activity that competes for our time and money. A successful sifu understands this and won't be so insecure and jealous.  And, as a result, training in his/her school will be a lot more enjoyable and productive.


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## KamonGuy2 (Mar 7, 2008)

I mean bear in mind that there are politics in wing chun and people have fallen out with each other in the past. 
ie If a William Cheung student had gone and trained under Bozteppi after their skirmish then I could understand a bit of tension there

Yet a student shouldn't really be blamed for being curious and wanting to explore

My students are welcome to go out and train under different schools - they have free will!

No matter how good I get, there will always be better instructors out there and that is the whole point of training for ourselves


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## Mic (Mar 8, 2008)

My Sifu has great respect for all arts not just Wing Chun and thinks that there is experance to found anywhere and even lets a master of Baltawlk teach in his at times that he is not teaching and lets his higher level students train in Baltawlk and is proud of this fact.so i would say he would not mind at all if i started training in another school or art i think he would just ask that anyone wishing to do so made sure they had the basics of our art, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, down first.


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## geezer (Mar 9, 2008)

Mic said:


> My Sifu has great respect for all arts not just Wing Chun and thinks that there is experance to found anywhere and even lets a master of Baltawlk teach in his at times that he is not teaching and lets his higher level students train in Baltawlk and is proud of this fact.so i would say he would not mind at all if i started training in another school or art i think he would just ask that anyone wishing to do so made sure they had the basics of our art, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, down first.


 
OK, now you've got my curiosity up. First, what is "baltawlk" ...is that _balintawak_ as in eskrima? And, secondly, what is _Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun_? What is its lineage and its characteristics? How is it like or unlike the other branches of WC and WT, etc.?


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## Mic (Mar 9, 2008)

yes Balintawak, sorry i was sleepy when i wrote that post lol. 

Hung Fa Yi can trace our history back to when the Manchu over through the Ming Dynasty and through those documents have an understanding of where we came from.We do not belive that Wing Chun was created by a woman(not saying women cant kick but) from what we know from our documentation.
Hung Fa yi is also different in that some of our stances are a little different in structure although a trained eye can see alot of the simularties. Our thoughts on Time, Space and Energy and so much else makes the art different. it would take way too long to describe all the differences but if any one would like a glance into the world of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun go here and go to the Recommended Reading Especially under commen mis conceptions of wing chun to read of our history
http://www.cinciwingchun.com/home.html


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## KamonGuy2 (Mar 10, 2008)

Is Hung Fa Yi the one that benny Meng studies/teaches?


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## Mic (Mar 10, 2008)

yes Benny Meng is my master above my sifu and  grandmaster Gee is above us all and lineage holder.


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## KamonGuy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

Oh dear...

He doesn't have a very good reputation in London


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## geezer (Mar 11, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Oh dear...


 
Is this some of that famous understated British humor?


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## qwksilver61 (Mar 11, 2008)

I don't believe so,since we are many miles and many years apart since I last studied with my former Dei-si-Hing.Anyway the proof is in the pudding,how well were you taught,what did you retain,and are you a capable teacher?That is what you have to ask.Also is your mind flexible enough to handle change?Some of us have a tendency to resist change.While Wing Chun is Wing Chun,not all Wing Chun carries the same format as I'm finding out with Wing Tsun versus EBMAS Wing Tzun.Some of the core principles are the same but the approach is different.No,I do not think my former teacher would care,so long as I was practicing Wing Chun.


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## KamonGuy2 (Mar 12, 2008)

geezer said:


> Is this some of that famous understated British humor?


British humour? You found some? Anyway, whilst I live in Britain, I am a citizen of the world....

Benny Meng was rumoured to have conned a load of people in the US by hosting a seminar to show people secret techniques etc. Thee people were shown three techniques which were basic moves (like palm strikes etc)

I think there was also an issue between Robert Chu and Benny Meng (not sure if its resolved)


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## Bodhisattva (Mar 12, 2008)

geezer said:


> Would your Sifu totally freak if you wanted to train with some guys from a different WC/WT/VT branch? Or would he encourage you to look around and gain a broader experience? If you were planning a trip and wanted to visit some different schools while you were away, how would your Sifu respond?



I think any time a kung fu teacher, or any MA teacher, tries to limit his students its obviously due to insecurity and ignorance.

One thing I always liked about Straight Blast Gym was their encouragement that their students train elsewhere.

You can only do that when you are teaching the "real stuff" or else you wouldn't be nearly secure enough to do it.


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## Mic (Mar 12, 2008)

well not every one is going to like everyone else.so far everything i have learned makes sense and is relevant in combat so that i know what im learning works.Its been my experience in life that anytime you have a different view, Idea or belief some one else will disagree and try to smack you down for it. Just because someone sees something different doesnt mean what they think is wrong or what you think is wrong sometimes they can both be right just go about things differently.


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## KamonGuy2 (Mar 13, 2008)

Mic - can I ask - have you been in a combat situation (fight etc), because it is a very big statement to say that what you do 'works'.

It is very important in this day and age to be tested by other arts and schools, not for reassurance but to make your training interesting 

I am very aware that no matter how good, or how much your art 'works' there is always someone out there who is better. 

So we train for ourselves to make ourselves better, whether it be on a fitness level, an internal level or self defence level. If what you do makes you happy then that is a good thing, but be very careful to assume that what you do works


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## Mic (Mar 13, 2008)

i agree that there is always someone better my sifu says that a lot. I also agree that we take MA to better our selfs and that is the main out come I have not had to fight sense i started my training(which is only do to my skill i learned at defusing problems as a security officer) but as a man who grew up with violence  around me my whole life i can tell you that what im learning makes complete sense and i wish i could have started training earlier in life.


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## geezer (Mar 14, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> ...If what you do makes you happy then that is a good thing, but be very careful to assume that what you do works


 
Right. I mean isn't that what it really boils down to? For example, right now I'm just doing a lot of chi-sau. It's probably not doing anything more to improve my street-fighting skills than playing checkers or chess. But I enjoy it, and I'm being honest with myself about it. Self-delusion is a major problem in the martial arts. Don't think that just because you are great at forms, drills, and carefully controlled club sparring that you are "all that"...or you are likely to get killed!


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## profesormental (Mar 14, 2008)

Greetings.



			
				geezer said:
			
		

> For example, right now I'm just doing a lot of chi-sau. It's probably not doing anything more to improve my street-fighting skills than playing checkers or chess. But I enjoy it, and I'm being honest with myself about it. Self-delusion is a major problem in the martial arts. Don't think that just because you are great at forms, drills, and carefully controlled club sparring that you are "all that"...or you are likely to get killed!




Fortunately, Chi Sao does have many attributes that do translate well to self defense. It is not a self defense simulation, yet there are many skills that can be trained safely using chi sao. Although, training is needed to bridge this optimally.

My teacher trained in several arts and shared with several instructors, and so have I. It has enriched my experience a lot. Many times it is worth the effort.

The thing is that martial science training requires cumulative training of certain skills... and just learning new things all the time will take away from getting real good at certain skills. This is important to consider in the strategies and tactics stage... since the strategies and tactics that you train will be the ones executed when needed...

and if you train new things all the time, then no strategy and/or tactics will be effectively programmed into the neurology of the body...

which will then not yield much advantage.

And that is a problem, since the training will not yield operational results if needed.

Hope that helps.

Juan M. Mercado


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## geezer (Mar 15, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> ...While Wing Chun is Wing Chun,not all Wing Chun carries the same format as I'm finding out with Wing Tsun versus EBMAS Wing Tzun.Some of the core principles are the same but the approach is different...



Getting back on topic, this is exactly why I believe you need to get out of your own kwoon and see what else is out there. This weekend, I'm training with a Master Jeff Webb of the newly formed NWTO.  When he got into town, one of the first things he did was to look up a older, respected master of another branch of WC and invite him out for breakfast. Later, the senior members of our group, who all have some knowledge of both systems, had some very positive discussions about the different approaches of each. I really wish more high level sifus would adopt such open attitudes. Oh, and Joe, aka qwksilver61, you gotta meet Jeff. Compared to Emin, it's like yin and yang. Each is amazing in very different ways. Until you've worked with both, you're missing a big piece of the WT system. Also, Carson Lau was in town last weekend, down from Toronto. But, since he was a guest of my kung fu brother, the very "Sifu freak-out" who inspired this thread, (and I now belong to a different group), I couldn't train with him...even though I would have liked too. Too bad. Oh well, its a big Wing Chun world out there...


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## amon (Mar 16, 2008)

geezer said:


> Would your Sifu totally freak if you wanted to train with some guys from a different WC/WT/VT branch? Or would he encourage you to look around and gain a broader experience? If you were planning a trip and wanted to visit some different schools while you were away, how would your Sifu respond?


 
Since martial arts is about hurting people a very special bond is formed between student and master. I think that you should ask your sifu. That is the only opinion that should matter to you as he is entrusting you with his life experience concerning the matter. If a student is blown about by every opinion and idea that floats their way, how can it be said they have any roots or in our world, stance. They would always be off balance and only pretend to the art rather then absorbing its essence. 

But thats just my opinion.


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## qwksilver61 (Mar 16, 2008)

Ha!Ha! Yes! It is a big Wing Chun Woild out there.Man, wish I was you,I definitely like the Sifu Webb approach,the protractor thing that is.One day.....one day....skill over brute force. I was thinking,it would be nice to visit the Georgia branch,did he go with Sifu Jeff? anyway have a blast! Let me know how it went.Later,


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