# Bad wallstreet occupyer behavior



## billc

Well, unlike the Tea Party rallies, there is a lot of bad behavior coming from the silly people occupying  wallstreet.

http://biggovernment.com/publius/2011/10/08/local-residents-businesses-want-occupywallst-to-end/




> Mike Keane, who owns O&#8217;Hara&#8217;s Restaurant and Pub, said that the theft of soap and toilet paper had soared and that one protester had used the bathroom but had failed to properly use the toilet. Both Ms. Tzortzatos, owner of the Panini and Company Cafe, and Mr. Keane said the protesters rarely bought anything, yet hurled curses when they were told that only paying customers could use their bathrooms.
> Steve Zamfotis, manager of another nearby store, Steve&#8217;s Pizza, said: &#8220;They are pests. They go to the bathroom and don&#8217;t even buy a cup of coffee.&#8221;
> Mr. Zamfotis closed his bathroom after it repeatedly flooded from protesters&#8217; bathing there.
> Kira Annika, a spokeswoman for the protesters, wrote in an e-mail that she had not heard such complaints: &#8220;We were under the impression that the local business community appreciated our patronage.&#8221;
> In a widely distributed pamphlet, &#8220;Welcome to Liberty Plaza: Home of Occupy Wall Street,&#8221; participants were instructed where to find relief. &#8220;After you&#8217;ve dined,&#8221; it reads, &#8220;feel free to refresh yourself in the restrooms of neighboring businesses like Burger King and McDonald&#8217;s without feeling obligated to buy anything.&#8221;
> A manager of the Burger King in question said he had no trouble with the protesters, though a maintenance worker at the McDonald&#8217;s, Deon Cook, said that in recent days he had been forced to clean the bathroom every five minutes.
> &#8220;I&#8217;m looking forward to it being over,&#8221; Mr. Cook said.


----------



## billc

Oh yes, these guys are classy.

http://www.breitbart.tv/defecate-wall-street-protesters-trash-gotham-defecate-on-nypd-car/

And they are taking in the local tourist attractions...

http://news.yahoo.com/us-protesters-clash-guards-washington-museum-225350979.html



> Protesters clashed with security staff when they tried to enter a museum in Washington on Saturday, prompting one guard to usepepper spray and leading to at least one arrest, a spokeswoman said.
> The incident occurred at The Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum around 3:15 pm (1915 GMT), after hundreds of activists had marched from Freedom Plaza, near the White House, along the National Mall towards the US Capitol.
> Some of those in the demonstration were affiliated with the Occupy DC protest group that sprung up earlier this week as a spin-off of the larger Occupy Wall Street movement in New York, angered at "corporate greed."
> Smithsonian spokeswoman Linda St. Thomas said a group of the protesters were confronted when they tried to push through the doors and enter the Air and Space Museum.
> "When they were told they couldn't bring the banners they were carrying inside one security officer used pepper spray," she said.
> "There were a couple of hundred protesters in the area at the time and Washington police were called. There was one arrest that I know of," she added, noting that the museum closed its doors two hours early because of the clash.


----------



## Tez3

"Protesters clashed with security staff when they tried to enter a museum in Washington on Saturday, prompting one guard to usepepper spray and leading to at least one arrest, a spokeswoman said.
The incident occurred at The Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum around 3:15 pm (1915 GMT), after hundreds of activists had marched from Freedom Plaza, near the White House, along the National Mall towards the US Capitol.
Some of those in the demonstration were affiliated with the Occupy DC protest group that sprung up earlier this week as a spin-off of the larger Occupy Wall Street movement in New York, angered at "corporate greed."
Smithsonian spokeswoman Linda St. Thomas said a group of the protesters were confronted when they tried to push through the doors and enter the Air and Space Museum.
*"When they were told they couldn't bring the banners they were carrying inside one security officer used pepper spray," she said.
*"There were a couple of hundred protesters in the area at the time and Washington police were called. There was one arrest that I know of," she added, noting that the museum closed its doors two hours early because of the clash. "


There's something missing isn't there? They were told they couldn't bring their banners in then pepper sprayed... did they refuse, did they have time to obey the instruction or were they just told then sprayed?

One of the joys of a country proudly trumpeting they are a country of free speech is that is exactly what you get... free speech, now you can live with it or ban it. Or you can sound like a maiden aunt on discovering  what she thinks is a brothel is being set up opposite her house! which of course it never is.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

I don't know what actually happened, but I know what is being reported.  I would suspect that there will be video from security cameras.  But the news story I read said that the protesters entered the museum and stated that they wanted to protest in front of the exhibits of 'war' planes to protest the current wars.  One security guard tried to stop them and some of the protesters grabbed him and pinned him against a wall to allow the other protesters to enter; the second security guard then began to pepper spray those holding the security guard.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/10/08/general-us-capital-protest_8724745.html



> Smithsonian spokesman John Gibbons said a large group of demonstrators, estimated at 100 to 200 people, arrived at about 3 p.m. and tried to enter the National Mall museum. When a security guard stopped group members from entering, saying they could not bring in signs, he was apparently held by demonstrators, Gibbons said. A second guard who arrived used pepper spray on at least one person and the crowd dispersed, he added.



If that is what happened, I have no problem with these punks getting pepper sprayed.

I'd also like to point out that the Smithsonian Museum is not public property.  People plan their vacations around visiting exhibits like this; for some it's the event of a lifetime.  Schools send busloads of students for educational purposes.  They pay to get in, they have a perfect right to see those exhibits, and not a pack of smelly dirty hippies protesting in front of the exhibits.  Stand outside on public property and protest?  Sure.  Barge into a private museum so that they can protest in front of the exhibits?  No.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I've been in a number of places that have locks on their rest rooms and strictly control access to staff and paying customers. I've got no problem with that. I've often bought a tea or soda to gain access. Inconvenient? sure. But if you want public restrooms, I'm sure the government would provide, along with higher taxes to cover the costs.  Also, the rest rooms provided to take a crap and wash your hands. Expecting folks to flush doesn't seem unreasonable, though in some cases is too complex for some. It's not there to be a shower. Go to a truck stop already, they offer that service.

What I want to know is, how are these people supporting themselves?


----------



## Empty Hands

Bill Mattocks said:


> They pay to get in, they have a perfect right to see those exhibits, and not a pack of smelly dirty hippies protesting in front of the exhibits.



The Smithsonian is free.  At least the Natural History Museum is, which I've entered twice for free.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Empty Hands said:


> The Smithsonian is free.  At least the Natural History Museum is, which I've entered twice for free.



I beg your pardon.  Yes, entrance is free to the public.  I hope my point remains; it is not 'public space' open to protesters with banners standing in front of the exhibits.  The people who come to the Smithsonian from all over the USA come to see the exhibits, not to see the protesters.

I'll tell you this much; I've been to the Air and Space Museum once; while I was in the Marines.  It was a special event for me; and I remember it well.  If I had been stopped from viewing the exhibits by some banners unfurled by protesters, there would have been a punch-up.  And frankly, I wish the DC police had tasered the crap out the entire band of stinky hippies.  It's time for this crap to end.


----------



## Big Don

Bill Mattocks said:


> I beg your pardon.  Yes, entrance is free to the public.  I hope my point remains; it is not 'public space' open to protesters with banners standing in front of the exhibits.  The people who come to the Smithsonian from all over the WORLD come to see the exhibits, not to see the protesters.
> 
> I'll tell you this much; I've been to the Air and Space Museum once; while I was in the Marines.  It was a special event for me; and I remember it well.  If I had been stopped from viewing the exhibits by some banners unfurled by protesters, there would have been a punch-up.  And frankly, I wish the DC police had tasered the crap out the entire band of stinky hippies.  It's time for this crap to end.


Just a small correction. I agree wholeheartedly.


----------



## Makalakumu

In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave,          and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for          then it costs nothing to be a patriot.
        - Mark Twain Notebook, 1904

http://www.meetup.com/Occupy-Oahu/events/36302452/

Find somewhere near you and show them how it's done.


----------



## Makalakumu

"Turn off your TV sets!"


----------



## Tez3

Why do you call them rest rooms when they blatently aren't? They are toilets, lavatories or loos lol! No wonder they are protesting, they are confused by coy Victorian euphemisms lol!


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Makalakumu said:


> In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave,          and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for          then it costs nothing to be a patriot.
> - Mark Twain Notebook, 1904
> 
> http://www.meetup.com/Occupy-Oahu/events/36302452/
> 
> Find somewhere near you and show them how it's done.



The fact that a movement is hated and scorned does not mean it it is patriotic, nor that it is righteous.

I've done all that could possibly be asked of me by my country, save die for it; my patriotism can never be put in question.  And I've earned the right to call BS on those who have never served but claim to speak for me.


----------



## Makalakumu

Who is telling you that the movement is hated and scorned? I'm right here...in it. No hate. No scorn. Only support.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## billc

I'm scorning it.  Who else is?  I am not a hater by nature, and these people are silly and annoying.


----------



## Makalakumu

Putting on costume and killing people overseas does not equal serving the country or the people or anyone but the Wall Street string pullers who use the costumes to force others to do what they want. These costumes are part of what is destroying the country. The debt racked up to pay for the mess the costumes are a part of is stealing the wealth from everyone. Whilst the individual might be good and patriotic, it is false to extend this into the immoral costumed institutions.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## elder999

billcihak said:


> I'm scorning it. Who else is? I am not a hater by nature, and these people are silly and annoying.



C'mon. On some issues, many of them are supporting some of the very same things you stand for:

[yt]rQow0Fhua1A[/yt]


----------



## billc

Possibly, but then there is this...


----------



## Flea

Bill, I don't think anyone is defending The Pooper.


----------



## elder999

I'm half calling B.S. on this right here- and betting that's a homeless dude who has nothing to do with the Wall Street "occupation."

The car is marked 81st precinct, which is in Brooklyn, not Manhattan. In fact, it's Bed-Stuy, where-_not for nothin'_-they wouldn't take cops away from-maybe the cops are in Manhattan on overtime (wish I could see a better perspective on this to tell exactly where it is) but-except for the guy being white-this just might be in Brooklyn....


----------



## Makalakumu

The media hack job is obvious once you see it with your own eyes.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## elder999

Makalakumu said:


> The media hack job is obvious once you see it with your own eyes.
> 
> Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk



Nah-it could be someone from the 81st working the protest on overtime-I'm suspicious, though.


----------



## Omar B

elder999 said:


> I'm half calling B.S. on this right here- and betting that's a homeless dude who has nothing to do with the Wall Street "occupation."
> 
> The car is marked 81st precinct, which is in Brooklyn, not Manhattan. In fact, it's Bed-Stuy, where-_not for nothin'_-they wouldn't take cops away from-maybe the cops are in Manhattan on overtime (wish I could see a better perspective on this to tell exactly where it is) but*-except for the guy being white-this just might be in Brooklyn*....



I'm gonna disagree with you here man.  Your statement seems to assert that because he's white it may not be Brooklyn.  As if the NY population is neatly segregated.  It could be anywhere in the city.  Oh, and most of the people I know from Brooklyn are white, ike my bud Sal who owns a pizza place in Bed Stuy.


----------



## Makalakumu

elder999 said:


> Nah-it could be someone from the 81st working the protest on overtime-I'm suspicious, though.


 
Maybe. It's proper to skeptical of any MSM reports on this.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Master Dan

Tez3 said:


> "Protesters clashed with security staff when they tried to enter a museum in Washington on Saturday, prompting one guard to usepepper spray and leading to at least one arrest, a spokeswoman said.
> The incident occurred at The Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum around 3:15 pm (1915 GMT), after hundreds of activists had marched from Freedom Plaza, near the White House, along the National Mall towards the US Capitol.
> Some of those in the demonstration were affiliated with the Occupy DC protest group that sprung up earlier this week as a spin-off of the larger Occupy Wall Street movement in New York, angered at "corporate greed."
> Smithsonian spokeswoman Linda St. Thomas said a group of the protesters were confronted when they tried to push through the doors and enter the Air and Space Museum.
> *"When they were told they couldn't bring the banners they were carrying inside one security officer used pepper spray," she said.
> *"There were a couple of hundred protesters in the area at the time and Washington police were called. There was one arrest that I know of," she added, noting that the museum closed its doors two hours early because of the clash. "
> 
> 
> There's something missing isn't there? They were told they couldn't bring their banners in then pepper sprayed... did they refuse, did they have time to obey the instruction or were they just told then sprayed?
> 
> One of the joys of a country proudly trumpeting they are a country of free speech is that is exactly what you get... free speech, now you can live with it or ban it. Or you can sound like a maiden aunt on discovering  what she thinks is a brothel is being set up opposite her house! which of course it never is.



What upsets me the most is how the greedy and powerfull people can never get enough and are never satisfied. In our countries past history people had to die to bring to pass changes related to antitrust fare labor, safety and civil rights. It was government in support of those people protesting and dying the force the Rober Barrons, corporations and others to change. Greedy and powerful people will not change unless forced to be fair and equitable and we now have a legislature that is greedy and powerful on both sides. I have been saying for some time that if things do not change violent protests will start when people realize they cannot live becasue thier jobs have been given to other countries and they cannot feed or house thier family? Last December Fox news conservatives were even saying it that things were going to get so bad that the only way for it to change for the better was people were going to have to rise up protest riot even violence to get real change. Yes some of the protestors may look and say this and that and to those who have plenty of money and food can have the luxury of saying they are all crazy and of low morals but it will continue to grow untill there is a fair equity and honest dealings in this country including health care, rebuilding our infrastructure and changing our energy policies.

If it takes hippies and a few naked people to get the silent suffering majority off its butt so be it


----------



## billc

Herman Cain had a great suggestion, why don't all these guys go to the whitehouse and protest or even congress.  That would really be fun.  Maybe that guy could poop on the whitehouse lawn.


----------



## Makalakumu

I am in full support of Pooping in DC.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Master Dan said:


> What upsets me the most is how the greedy and powerfull people can never get enough and are never satisfied. In our countries past history people had to die to bring to pass changes related to antitrust fare labor, safety and civil rights. It was government in support of those people protesting and dying the force the Rober Barrons, corporations and others to change. Greedy and powerful people will not change unless forced to be fair and equitable and we now have a legislature that is greedy and powerful on both sides. I have been saying for some time that if things do not change violent protests will start when people realize they cannot live becasue thier jobs have been given to other countries and they cannot feed or house thier family? Last December Fox news conservatives were even saying it that things were going to get so bad that the only way for it to change for the better was people were going to have to rise up protest riot even violence to get real change. Yes some of the protestors may look and say this and that and to those who have plenty of money and food can have the luxury of saying they are all crazy and of low morals but it will continue to grow untill there is a fair equity and honest dealings in this country including health care, rebuilding our infrastructure and changing our energy policies.
> 
> If it takes hippies and a few naked people to get the silent suffering majority off its butt so be it



You don't speak for me.  They don't speak for me.  And I hope they get the crap tasered out of themselves.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

http://detnews.com/article/20111009...-for-Occupy-Detroit?google_editors_picks=true



> And while the president and his media horde heard every whisper from a tea party rally that sounded like a threat or suggested racist undertones, they seem blissfully ignorant of the vicious and hateful side of Occupy Wall Street.
> 
> This is far from a peaceful protest. Cops in New York are arresting the increasingly violent activists by the hundreds.
> 
> Videos have caught incidents of Jewish passers-by being taunted by the protesters &#8212; of course, it's a quick step from attacking financial institutions to indulging anti-Semitism.
> 
> State lawmakers in New York have received emails reportedly connected to Occupy Wall Street containing this cheery call to action: "It's time to kill the wealthy."
> 
> I haven't taken a poll, but my hunch is more Americans relate to "cut the spending" than to "kill the wealthy."
> 
> That's why I'm eager to see this freak show arrive in Detroit.
> 
> It'll be informative for voters to compare the American protesters Barack Obama sympathizes with to those he despises.



Like I said.  How long will it be before Occupy Wall Street builds a bomb or sets fire to a business?  And you who support them, you'll claim you never meant "this" and oh **** oh dear, those violent anti-Semites are not the REAL Occupy Wall Street and oh me and oh my.  These lawless, mindless thugs need to be cleaned off the streets now.  End this.  They're not 'speaking for the 99%'.  They're not speaking for me.  They're not speaking for America.  They're evil and it's time to end this now.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

So the people involved in these "Occupy" movements are the 99%?

ok  99%ers.  Chew on this.

In 2009, there were 104,164,970 individual tax returns filed.
 The top tax bracket listed is $10M or more.
 There were 8,225 of those returns, paying $55.875 Billion in taxes on a  reported $205 Billion in income. 
That's a 27% tax rate (average)
 So,  since the demand is to raise taxes on that "1%", how much more should  these 8,225 people be ordered to fork over? 
Another 3% tax only  generates another $5.625 Billion. 

 This is that 'math' thing that those morons protesting fail at.
 Source: http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=133521,00.html205

Should it be "redistributed" to the 2,834,219 tax return filers who made $10,000 or less?
That would give each of them an extra $2k to spend.
Now, how much for bills, good food, medicine and starting a savings/investment program?
But, what about that guy who made $11,000?  Should he get anything, or piss on him?
ok, lets raise the limit to $12k and under. $12,001 you're outta luck.
Well, that adds another 2,382,086 people to the list.
Now everyone only gets $1,000.
Tack on the 2,585,795 people in the 12-14k range, and now your cut is $700.

Math sucks. Give me some cardboard, I'm gonna go down and march spouting things that I don't understand and complain about things that I'm clueless about.
**** those rich bastards. Power to the people. Redistribute the wealth! Pass the crack!


----------



## Makalakumu

Or are you just afraid that the costumes you put so much faith in are actually on the wrong side? When I see the real people out here, your protestations say more about you then reality.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Bob Hubbard

The people I see protesting in those YT clips, the articles I've read, show a disorganized, confused mass of angry slackers. Happy to complain, clueless about real solutions. Many just using it as an excuse to act like fools. No thanks. Not a crowd I want to support.


----------



## Master Dan

Bill Mattocks said:


> You don't speak for me.  They don't speak for me.  And I hope they get the crap tasered out of themselves.



So your statement solves fraud, theft, a collapsing country and economy by Tasering people you consider beneath you and of less value the same type of young people that brought about the end of the Veitnam War wich was about making money and the poor dying to support it. How many people have died due to the banks and wall street/corporations genocide cutting corners lying stealing and bribing our government all the way to the supreme court. Like Bill said original Tee Party committed grand theft of Marine vessels and destroyed property and if memory serves me wern't they dressed as indians probably a few bare butts hangin out there too and who's to say a few poop dumps weren't done just to add flavor to the moment they didn't have you tube and cell phones back then but the rich have been takin a crap over peope in this country for decades.

Every person and especially corporation that make 6,7,8 figures of income commite fraud every time they file thier taxes and get away with it because they can afford attorney's and CPA's to cover up and lie for them its a joke its not the tax rate its tax code written and developed by the people who seek to circumvent it. Any one who questions War or its expense or defense spending is called un American is the same racist Facist rhetoric used to divide and create class war instead of solving issues it just easier to blame a group of people as being the problem rather than treat the root problem. Your right I bet some buildings are going to get burned and people hurt and no amount of name calling or tasering is going to stop it injustice has a cost to it. The only way it will all slow down is if the government steps in and does the right thing and that will not happen with out a revolt of voting in the ballet box and the street.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

So what's the "right thing"?

To hear these idiots spout it off, they want free health care for all, no taxes except for the "rich", all their **** ups forgiven (all the maxed out credit cards, bounced checks, missed bill payments, etc).

How about this: They take responsibility for their own lives, suck it up, go work some jobs that are 'below them', work 2 jobs, start some businesses that don't require tons of capital (I can name 20 off the top of my head), and while at it, grab a shower and stop throwing rocks at cops thinking the crowd will hide them?


----------



## WC_lun

There was some news coverage of a linked event here in Kansas City.  There were interviews with 4 people who were protesting, a couple being involved in the actual organization of the event.  While I admitt that they all seemed kinda hippy, what they all said is that they feel corporations are buying our government and laws need to be passed limiting thier ability to do so.  It was also stated that "America is no longer the land of oppurtunity for most people.  The middle class is becomming poor while the rich are becomming richer.  There is a problem with that."

Look, I can understand your dislike of some of the "demands" given from the protestors in New York.  I also do not like some of the bad behaviour shown by a minority of players in the protest.  However, I think you are missing the big picture.  A protest that started out as a couple of hundred people has now grown to protest all across the nation made up of many thousands of people.  That alone says something is resonating with people and that people are upset.  Similiar to the Tea party movement.  

Before you start getting sanctimonious about the Tea Party being different than the Wall street protest, remember the dumb *** racist, the birthers, and the governement-is-gonna-kill-yer-grandma types that were part of that movement.  Yes, they were a minority, just as many of the idiots you see on news cast in the Wall Street protest are also a minority.  It is funny how you distrust media when they show things that don't fit what you believe, put when it is convenient, you believe they are showing you a %100 reflection of the truth.

This also apears to be a true grass roots movement, not funded by some left wing version of the Koch brothers.  So while you do not agree with the messages they are sending, as confused as they are, do not make the mistake of dismissing them or the emotions behind what they are doing as beign the product of "a bunch of losers."  Also, more free advice to conservatives, calling them names and dismissing them will probably have negative effects on voting independants.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I'm just as contemptuous of the Tea Party and Coffee Partys.


----------



## Makalakumu

Bill Mattocks said:


> You don't speak for me.  They don't speak for me.  And *I hope they get the crap tasered out of themselves*.



Every once in a while I think it's appropriate to flag a statement like this and refer back to that thread about beating children.  Attitudes like this and the unreasonableness that follows are par for the course.

As far as this thread is concerned, if anyone here is thinking that they know what the protesters think by reading the MSM stories, sorry, you don't.  And if you want to see people get hurt or killed because of articles that came to your eyes via the internet or beamed from the TV, well, that's *Mission Accomplished!* as far as the government is concerned.  

It was no different when they turned the Tea Party into the Republican Party and then demonized the crap out of it.  It's time to wake up and realize that you are being manipulated.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Makalakumu said:


> Every once in a while I think it's appropriate to flag a statement like this and refer back to that thread about beating children.  Attitudes like this and the unreasonableness that follows are par for the course.
> 
> As far as this thread is concerned, if anyone here is thinking that they know what the protesters think by reading the MSM stories, sorry, you don't.  And if you want to see people get hurt or killed because of articles that came to your eyes via the internet or beamed from the TV, well, that's *Mission Accomplished!* as far as the government is concerned.
> 
> It was no different when they turned the Tea Party into the Republican Party and then demonized the crap out of it.  It's time to wake up and realize that you are being manipulated.



To hell with them, and I'm not a Tea Party fan or a Republican.  I love the way everyone assumes just because I hate the Wall Street protesters, I just love the other extremists.  I don't like them even a little bit.

But I'll stand by my statement.  I hope the police beat them like baby seals.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Bill Mattocks said:


> To hell with them, and I'm not a Tea Party fan or a Republican.  I love the way everyone assumes just because I hate the Wall Street protesters, I just love the other extremists.  I don't like them even a little bit.
> 
> But I'll stand by my statement.  I hope the police beat them like baby seals.



I don't.  The idiots who are getting violent, deserve a rap to the head. The rest, no.  They may be confused, angry and stinky, but that doesn't equate to an *** whipping.


----------



## RandomPhantom700

So, far be it from me to interrupt this ideological hate-orgy goin on, but does anyone have actual numbers or idea how prevalent the violent or irresponsible behavior among the Wall Street Occupiers is?  I ask because if you put even 1000 randomly-assorted people together, you're going to have some jackasses in the group.  That goes double for a widespread movement that was organized through something as random as a social network.  

Ideologically speaking, I agree with some of what the protestors are about, but I think they're barking up the wrong tree.  Yelling at Wall Street for being greedy is like yelling at a teenager for being hormonal.  They should be squatting on Washington's steps, pun intended.  But they're the ones carrying the torches and risking arrest, not me, so I'll let them pick their own targets.  

Bottom line: anyone know if these reports are actually _representative_ of the Wall Street Occupiers, or are we just cherry-picking outliers so we can continue the hate-orgy?  I just want to be clear, since I really don't know.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Bob Hubbard said:


> I don't.  The idiots who are getting violent, deserve a rap to the head. The rest, no.  They may be confused, angry and stinky, but that doesn't equate to an *** whipping.



Things are about to get violent.  And when they do, I want the water cannon deployed, pronto.

Don't tell me some of these morons are not currently building bombs in a garage somewhere.  You know they are, so do I.  It's only a matter of time before one of the 'righteous' idiots sets one off.


----------



## Big Don

RandomPhantom700 said:


> So, far be it from me to interrupt this ideological hate-orgy goin on, but does anyone have actual numbers or idea how prevalent the violent or irresponsible behavior among the Wall Street Occupiers is?  I ask because if you put even 1000 randomly-assorted people together, you're going to have some jackasses in the group.  That goes double for a widespread movement that was organized through something as random as a social network.
> 
> Ideologically speaking, I agree with some of what the protestors are about, but I think they're barking up the wrong tree.  Yelling at Wall Street for being greedy is like yelling at a teenager for being hormonal.  They should be squatting on Washington's steps, pun intended.  But they're the ones carrying the torches and risking arrest, not me, so I'll let them pick their own targets.
> 
> Bottom line: anyone know if these reports are actually _representative_ of the Wall Street Occupiers, or are we just cherry-picking outliers so we can continue the hate-orgy?  I just want to be clear, since I really don't know.


Such data would be a lot easier to get at if the OWS scum, did not, like the "Million man march" drastically inflate their numbers.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

The estimates are "thousands".

Sounds large, until you put it in perspective.
US Population 315 Million.
Lets say 10,000 protesters across the US.

10,000
--------
315,000,000

.003% of the population.



In other news:


> [h=2]Occupy DC Activists Block Adam Kokesh From Recording Gathering[/h]             While I support the ongoing activism springing up around  the country, I really can't stand when activists believe they have the  authority to prevent others from video recording them. This usually  happens when they believe the videographer doesn't agree with their  political stance. It ends up making them look stupid, naive and  hypocritical. After all, the First Amendment doesn't just apply to them.


----------



## RandomPhantom700

Bob Hubbard said:


> The estimates are "thousands".
> 
> Sounds large, until you put it in perspective.
> US Population 315 Million.
> Lets say 10,000 protesters across the US.
> 
> 10,000
> --------
> 315,000,000
> 
> .003% of the population.
> 
> 
> 
> In other news:



I was wondering more about the percentage within the OWS crowd who were getting violent.  Seems a lot of the forumites in this thread want to just chalk them all up as "OWS scum", or as a violent group ready to start setting off bombs.  I'm questioning the accuracy of those portrayals.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

RandomPhantom700 said:


> I was wondering more about the percentage within the OWS crowd who were getting violent.  Seems a lot of the forumites in this thread want to just chalk them all up as "OWS scum", or as a violent group ready to start setting off bombs.  I'm questioning the accuracy of those portrayals.



Arrests at this time top 2,000. Some are likely repeats. Most released within a few hours. 
Most of the reports of violence that I've seen has been on the part of NYPD, not protesters.
I'm seeing dozens of protesters cited on violence charges, which is a small small percentage of the estimated 4,000 or so in NYC.
Hundreds of claims of assault by police however, caught on video. However I'm not interested enough to micro-analyze the clips to weed out dupes and multiple angles of same incident.


----------



## billc

Here is another video of interviews with the weirdos making up the "rebellion."  I have to say this is too easy, it's like kicking puppies...

http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/10/thedcs-jamie-weinstein-visits-occupy-dc/


----------



## Bill Mattocks

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/10/two_occupy_portland_supporters.html



> Two taggers supporting the Occupy Portland demonstration were arrested early this morning and accused of spraying paint on a police car and a downtown Portland business, the Portland Police Bureau reported.



View attachment $cop-ca.jpg

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=46739



> In a related matter, a man arrested for spraying graffiti at the Occupy Portland protest missed his court date. A court appearance for Nolan Zane MacGregor, 21, was rescheduled for Oct. 21 when he didn&#8217;t show up.
> 
> MacGregor was arrested along with an unidentified 17-year-old on suspicion of tagging phrases including &#8220;Occupy Portland&#8221; and &#8220;Wall Street Loves No One&#8221; on buildings and a marked police car.



Ah, the courage of his convictions; he spray-paints police cars, but refuses to show up in court.  Well, there's a citizen for lawful protest, eh?


> The Portland Police Bureau said Saturday that it is investigating an allegation of a sexual assault Friday night in Chapman Square where &#8220;Occupy Portland&#8221; supporters are camping.



Gee, rapists too.  But they're just peaceful protesters, right?


----------



## Makalakumu

Bill Mattocks said:


> I hope the police beat them like baby seals.



But now you are talking about me, Bill.  I'm going after work, again.  Do you want the cops to taser me?  Beat my skull in?


----------



## Bill Mattocks

http://www.kob.com/article/stories/s2320278.shtml



> "We had a small group, part of the protest, they went into some businesses, started spitting on people," said APD spokesman Patrick Ficke. "Some of the people were scared. They were videotaping them to give to us for evidence, and (protesters) were knocking those phones out of people's hands. People trying to call 9-1-1, they were knocking those phones away."


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Makalakumu said:


> But now you are talking about me, Bill.  I'm going after work, again.  Do you want the cops to taser me?  Beat my skull in?



No, you I like.  Maybe just a little pepper spray.


----------



## Big Don

Makalakumu said:


> But now you are talking about me, Bill.  I'm going after work, again.  Do you want the cops to taser me?  Beat my skull in?


If you behave the way some of this scum has been, yeah.


----------



## billc

You have a job?  Don't say that too loudly while you are down there, they might mistake you for a corporate stooge infiltrating the protest.  Then you really would have to be concerned for your safety.


----------



## Makalakumu

Big Don said:


> If you behave the way some of this scum has been, yeah.



Somehow, I think simply standing on the street would be enough for some.

I sense the urge to paint everyone with the broad brush here.  When protests are going on in over 1000 cities, it's easy to find some people who get out of control and demonize the rest of the group with those examples.  And, in the past, I've already been in a peaceful demonstration that has been "dispersed" by the police.  Some cops dress up as anarchists, cause trouble, and then they bring the hammer down on the rest of us.  It's the oldest trick in the book.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/49730--socorro-man-arrested-after-corporate-greed-protest



> ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. (AP)  Police say a Socorro man was arrested after nearly 200 people protesting corporate greed during a march along Central Avenue in Albuquerque.
> 
> Officers took 23-year-old Hani Barghout into custody Saturday for allegedly causing a disturbance while attempting to get other demonstrators to break the law.
> 
> The Albuquerque Journal (http://bit.ly/pBU4DF) says Barghout went into several businesses along Central  from Yale to San Mateo  harassing store owners and customers and spit on people while ignoring police warnings.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/07/BAFA1LECD5.DTL



> About 50 protesters stood in front of one truck to try to prevent it from leaving, activists said. The trucks took an alternate route and drove away on Main Street.
> 
> Police arrested Kevin Hernandez, 26, for allegedly punching and threatening an officer and resisting arrest, said Officer Albie Esparza, a department spokesman.


----------



## Big Don

Makalakumu said:


> Somehow, I think simply standing on the street would be enough for some.


That's a crock, and you know it.





> I sense the urge to paint everyone with the broad brush here.  When protests are going on in over 1000 cities,


 1000 cities? Is that like 57 states? Is it like a Million man march?





> it's easy to find some people who get out of control and demonize the rest of the group with those examples.  And, in the past, I've already been in a peaceful demonstration that has been "dispersed" by the police.  Some cops dress up as anarchists, cause trouble, and then they bring the hammer down on the rest of us.  It's the oldest trick in the book.


----------



## Makalakumu

Big Don said:


> That's a crock, and you know it. 1000 cities? Is that like 57 states? Is it like a Million man march?



It's not a crock.  Some people want the crowds dispersed no matter what they are doing.  Like I said, I've already been "dispersed" at a peaceful demonstration.  I've seen it happen.


----------



## Empty Hands

Makalakumu said:


> Somehow, I think simply standing on the street would be enough for some.



*Exactly.  *The critics are hardly covering themselves in glory here.  The acts of literally a few individuals out of many thousands are being used to judge the group as a whole and justify violence against the whole.  Shameful and hypocritical.  Is hippie-punching really that much fun?  Grow up.


----------



## billc

I've never tried "hippie" punching, but I would guess that you would need to get some shots first and have anti-bacterial soap handy afterward?


----------



## Bill Mattocks

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/it_nyc_lam_sterdam_bmE4vlV5aDUWhBRv9IbaiK



> Lured by cheap drugs and free food, creepy thugs have infiltrated the crowd of protesters camped out in Zuccotti Park for Occupy Wall Street, The Post has learned.
> 
> I got warrants. Im running from the law, boasted Dave, 24, a scrawny, unshaven miscreant in filthy clothes from Stamford, Conn. Im not even supposed to be here, but its as good a spot as any to hide.
> 
> Wanted for burglary, the drug-addled fugitive said some of his hard-partying pals clued him in that the protest was a good place to be fed, get wasted and crash.
> 
> ...
> 
> Drugs can be easy to score -- a Post reporter was offered pot for $15 and heroin for $10.
> 
> Theyve already fueled at least one violent incident, when a wasted nut job socked a medical volunteer in the face before others hauled the attacker away.
> ...
> The other day, there was a guy charging people $5 to use the McDonalds bathroom. He was on LSD or high on something.
> ...
> But as the protest ground on for a 23rd day, it was evident that there were challenges.
> 
> Zuccotti Park smelled like an open sewer -- with people urinating and defecating in public.
> 
> And some couples have taken advantage of the free condoms distributed by organizers to do the nasty in full view of other protesters.
> 
> It kinda makes me think of what Woodstock must have been like, said one protester, Sarah, 19 from the Upper West Side.
> 
> I havent hooked up with any guys ... but one of my friends did have sex in a tarp with a guy last night.
> 
> The free chow offered to protesters was boosting the crowd.
> 
> People say they are here for the cause, but the real reason is the free food, quipped Cameron, 26, of Jersey City.
> 
> On my third day, they had smoked salmon with cream cheese. You know how much smoked salmon is a pound? Sixteen dollars. I eat better here than I do with my parents!


----------



## Big Don

Empty Hands said:


> *Exactly.  *The critics are hardly covering themselves in glory here.  The acts of literally a few individuals out of many thousands are being used to judge the group as a whole and justify violence against the whole.  Shameful and hypocritical.  Is hippie-punching really that much fun?  Grow up.


Oh really? You were fine with it when LaRouche supporters were used to paint the Tea Party as racist...


----------



## Empty Hands

billcihak said:


> I've never tried "hippie" punching, but I would guess that you would need to get some shots first and have anti-bacterial soap handy afterward?



I have relatives and friends that could be described as hippies.  The great thing about them is that I've never heard them make bigoted, sweeping generalizations about thousands of people they don't know.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Empty Hands said:


> I have relatives and friends that could be described as hippies.  The great thing about them is that I've never heard them make bigoted, sweeping generalizations about thousands of people they don't know.



One of my brother-in-laws is, and he does.  So there you go.


----------



## Empty Hands

Bill Mattocks said:


> One of my brother-in-laws is, and he does.  So there you go.



Kind of missed the point.

One of the things I like about you is that you don't sink to this level of simple prejudice when the subject is muslims or mexican immigrants, like everyone else around here seems to.  I guess we managed to find a group of people where your dislike outweighs your critical thinking skills.

So what sets you apart from one of our muslim-haters apart from the particular target chosen?


----------



## Empty Hands

Big Don said:


> Oh really? You were fine with it when LaRouche supporters were used to paint the Tea Party as racist...



Find where I said that.  In fact I challenge you to find a single statement of mine as judgmental and thoughtless as the blizzard of recent stupidity we've seen here on this subject,


----------



## billc

As ever, the lovable and talented Ann Coulter is truly a marketing genius.  Her book captures the spirit of the times quite well...

http://www.amazon.com/Demonic-How-L...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1318269522&sr=1-1



> [h=1]Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is
> Endangering America [Hardcover][/h]Ann Coulter





> The demon is a mob, and the mob is demonic. The Democratic Party activates mobs,
> depends on mobs, coddles mobs, publicizes and celebrates mobsit is the mob.
> Sweeping in its scope and relentless in its argument, _Demonic _explains
> the peculiarities of liberals as standard groupthink behavior. To understand
> mobs is to understand liberals.
> 
> In her most provocative book to date,
> Ann Coulter argues that liberals exhibit all the psychological characteristics
> of a mob, for instance:
> 
> Liberal Groupthink: The same mob mentality that
> leads otherwise law-abiding people to hurl rocks at cops also leads otherwise
> intelligent people to refuse to believe anything they havent heard on NPR.
> 
> 
> Liberal Schemes:No matter how mad the plan
> isFraternité, the New Soviet Man, the Master Race, the Great Leap Forward,
> the Cultural Revolution, Building a New Society, ObamaCarea mob will believe
> it.


----------



## Twin Fist

WTF!!!

are you seriously trying to claim that the military is ruining the country???

****ing seriously?



Makalakumu said:


> Putting on costume and killing people overseas does not equal serving the country or the people or anyone but the Wall Street string pullers who use the costumes to force others to do what they want. These costumes are part of what is destroying the country. The debt racked up to pay for the mess the costumes are a part of is stealing the wealth from everyone. Whilst the individual might be good and patriotic, it is false to extend this into the immoral costumed institutions.
> 
> Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Twin Fist

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT

exactly wrong

the truth has come out, it is funded by working families, which is funded by the tides foundation which IS george soros

it is pure astroturf



WC_lun said:


> This also apears to be a true grass roots movement, not funded by some left wing version of the Koch brothers.


----------



## Big Don

What is the most amusing thing about Soros being behind this? He's the man WHO BROKE the bank of England, he embodies EXACTLY what the kooks say they are against.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Empty Hands said:


> Kind of missed the point.
> 
> One of the things I like about you is that you don't sink to this level of simple prejudice when the subject is muslims or mexican immigrants, like everyone else around here seems to.  I guess we managed to find a group of people where your dislike outweighs your critical thinking skills.
> 
> So what sets you apart from one of our muslim-haters apart from the particular target chosen?



Hahaha, you caught me.  I do indeed have an unreasonable prejudice.  It's against these Occupy Wall Street protesters.  But at least it's equal opportunity; I don't dislike them on the basis of their age, race, gender, religion, or political persuasion.  Oops, caught again, I don't like socialists and I downright loathe communists.

Your criticism is fair, but I have to tell you, I'm enraged at these protesters.  I fear the damage they could do to our system and I think they're not just misguided, but dangerous.

I fully realize that not all of the protesters are filthy dirty hippies, commies, or criminals.  However, they're fodder and tools for those who are.  And if they find a charismatic leader, their non-violent protests will become violent in nothing flat.  They terrify me.

FWIW, I have only slightly less loathing for the Tea Party.  Since they were subsumed into the GOP, however, they've had their teeth pulled, more or less.  They're still numskulls, but I doubt they'll be blowing anything up.


----------



## Big Don

Makalakumu said:


> Putting on costume and killing people overseas does not equal serving the country


As a veteran, I have two words for you. Sadly, actually posting them would get me banned, but, they sound like Duck Fu


----------



## Twin Fist

i second that, and I am also a veteren.



Big Don said:


> As a veteran, I have two words for you. Sadly, actually posting them would get me banned, but, they sound like Duck Fu


----------



## Empty Hands

I can appreciate where you are coming from, and your self-honesty.  Another thing I admire about you is you are honest about yourself, even when it doesn't make you look good.



Bill Mattocks said:


> I fear the damage they could do to our system and I think they're not just misguided, but dangerous.



How many people are we talking about here?  50,000 at most?  If every one of those 50,000 picked up an assault rifle and started their revolution, it would do no damage to the system.  It would damage many people's lives, but the system would be unscathed.  In fact, the system would be strengthened because their message would be ignored when the masses turned against them.

They will bring down nothing.  Mass popular movements require "mass" and "popularity", which are two things this particular movement lacks.  When 50 million people join up, then the system is in danger.  

However - what will make their message resonate and cause their movement to build?  The short sighted decisions of our governmental and business leaders.  A widening wealth gap and permanent elevated unemployment.  We went through this before in the 30's, and it wasn't fun.  Our elites did learn a valuable lesson at that time though - worker protections and rising wages and quality of life for everyone *benefits the elites*.  It keeps everyone bought into the system and too damned comfortable to pick up an assault rifle.  Anyone who wants the return of the Gilded Age should remember how that turned out.

For all of that though, I would be absolutely shocked if you could find even a hundred of these protestors who would be willing to pick up a gun and start shooting.  It isn't nearly bad enough for that.  Yet, at least.


----------



## Twin Fist

but they might just kill a few thousand innocent people in the process....


----------



## Tez3

As per the thread title... what makes 'good' occupier behavior?

Is occupying somewhere like that ever justified, would you do it if you felt strongly enough? How would you go about demonstrating to your government that you had serious issues they weren't addressing and voting didn't seem to make any difference? If legal demos etc didn't get any notice or didn't work would you do something illegal?


----------



## billc

Attend a peaceful, quiet, respectful tea party rally.  Even the anti-tea party infiltrators only hold up Obama as Hitler signs to get in front of the cameras.  They don't spit, poop, or antagonize the police.  The tea party also shows respect to the military and cleans up after themsleves.


----------



## Empty Hands

Twin Fist said:


> but they might just kill a few thousand innocent people in the process....



And if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

All of the violence associated with this group wadded up into a ball and put in one place wouldn't account for 20 minutes in a moderately bad neighborhood.


----------



## Empty Hands

billcihak said:


> Attend a peaceful, quiet, respectful tea party rally.  Even the anti-tea party infiltrators only hold up Obama as Hitler signs to get in front of the cameras.  They don't spit, poop, or antagonize the police.  The tea party also shows respect to the military and cleans up after themsleves.



Yeah, we get it.  All of *my *anti-government nutballs are perfect and beautiful, all of *your *anti-government nutballs are horrifying savages.  Give that poor jukebox a rest, this song's been on repeat for a long time now.


----------



## billc

It's an oldie, a goodie and very accurate.


----------



## Empty Hands

billcihak said:


> It's an oldie, a goodie and very accurate.



It's perfectly fine to have a rich fantasy life, but most adults know that it's polite to keep your fantasies to yourself and not air them out in public.  Scares the horses and all that, doncha know.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Empty Hands said:


> For all of that though, I would be absolutely shocked if you could find even a hundred of these protestors who would be willing to pick up a gun and start shooting.  It isn't nearly bad enough for that.  Yet, at least.



You make excellent points.  But I read their Twitter feeds, and it's all this violent rhetoric; not the stuff being reported on the news.  Maybe it's just words; but it frightens and angers me.

I also have a very negative memory of the 1960's in terms of social unrest.  It may have been the 'Summer of Love' in San Francisco, but in the Midwest, protesters were occupying government and school buildings, building and setting off bombs, and rioting.

I remember this...in 1973, I was living in Pekin, Illinois.  I was a newspaper boy.  I was assaulted and beaten by a hippie who stole a newspaper from me; he worked for the McGovern election campaign office.  I remember well the trauma; the police caught him but I was too scared to ID him in a lineup (I was 12).  The police gave my dad five minutes in a closed room with the hippie and that was that.  A few weeks later, my dad took me to the Pekin Library to see President Nixon; he was dedicating the new library to the late Senator Dirksen.  A bunch of hippies showed up and started screaming and waving signs around; then they started fighting the police.  I watched the police beat them with riot batons; my dad got a very grim expression on his face and forcibly turned my head away so I could not see it and he never spoke about it again.  I didn't 'get it' then.  I do now.

Now here is it, 2011.  Times are tough and I am afraid that this crap will resonate with the lazy and the criminal, the people who think they're entitled to higher education for free, free medical care for life, unemployment insurance that never runs out, and so on.  I'm afraid that these protests will find a charismatic leader who will very quickly subvert them and turn them into something very very violent and evil.

Recently, I was posting on Twitter because I was angry at the Occupy Wall Street protesters who keep staying they speak for the 99% and some of them insist the 'Veterans are with them.'  I said that they should stop saying they speak for veterans, and they do not.  I got this reply: _"Correct. We don't speak for warmongers who do the banks' dirty work. Serving in pretend wars; killing for greed."_  And I see others in this very thread are adopting that tone.  They don't badmouth veterans normally; but when the anger comes out, they speak their mind about how they feel about those of us who have served in uniform.  The mask slips and we see that yes, truly, still think of us as babykillers.

When I joined the Marine Corps in 1979, it seemed the nation was very polarized.  We were 'warned' not to go out in town on liberty in uniform; fact.  I wasn't 'spit on' but I was hassled and called names and refused service by people who disliked the military.  Now since 2001, we're heroes again, right?  Except yeah, not so much when it comes to Occupy Wall Street.  They 'speak for us' but they actually hate us if you scratch the surface.

I guess you could say my fear, distrust, and animosity runs deep.  Unfair?  Maybe.  Could be I have some issues based on my life experience.  At the same time, I don't see love, trust, and acceptance in these crowds of numskulls.  I see anger, animosity, and a stated desire to tear down not just the things that are wrong, but our entire culture.  I won't stand for it.


----------



## Grenadier

There's a local copycat group, called "Occupy Birmingham" that's putting up a feeble protest here as well.  I strolled out to 5 Points for a lunch break, and saw a handful of dirty babbling individuals who can't even keep a coherent thought, except to complain about "the big man holding us down!"  

What's even funnier, is that any time I've asked them why they are protesting, none of them can give the same reason, except for bleating the same line about how wealth must be redistributed.  

They've left a lot of trash at their meeting place from yesterday in the nearby park, and much of it never made it to the garbage cans.  I felt sorry for the sanitation worker who had to pick up after those lazy slackers. 

So far, for a group that has claimed to be environmentally friendly, they are anything but that.  

My advice to them is this: If you want to protest and get your message out there, then at least HAVE a coherent message that rings true with the people.  When a dozen of your minions give a dozen widely differing messages on what they do, and when they behave like literring animals, your message isn't going to be one that the people sympathize with in any way.  

I'm in the process of making a sign that says "Stop stinking up my city!" and will flash it in front of them as I head to my car after work is over.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Empty Hands said:


> And if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.
> 
> All of the violence associated with this group wadded up into a ball and put in one place wouldn't account for 20 minutes in a moderately bad neighborhood.



Speaking of which, I have been reading with interest the plan to "Occupy Detroit" in the next week or so.  Right downtown.  At night.  I think they might be in for a surprise there.  The bangers will take everything they own and leave them floating in the Detroit River.

I read one guy eagerly posting on Twitter about how they were going to 'occupy' the shut down auto factories and start producing cars again.  Have they even been to Detroit?


----------



## Empty Hands

Bill Mattocks said:


> Speaking of which, I have been reading with interest the plan to "Occupy Detroit" in the next week or so.  Right downtown.  At night.  I think they might be in for a surprise there.  The bangers will take everything they own and leave them floating in the Detroit River.
> 
> I read one guy eagerly posting on Twitter about how they were going to 'occupy' the shut down auto factories and start producing cars again.  Have they even been to Detroit?



Now that's pretty funny. 

Separately, I thought downtown was more or less deserted?  From what I've read most of the violence is in the city surrounding downtown.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Empty Hands said:


> Now that's pretty funny.
> 
> Separately, I thought downtown was more or less deserted?  From what I've read most of the violence is in the city surrounding downtown.



The very heart of downtown is perfectly safe in the daytime, more or less deserted at night except for the various casinos and sports arenas.  And they're talking about 'occupying"  Hart Plaza, right on the river.

However, the gangsters are like sharks; they smell blood in the water and they will show up en masse.  Detroit has so much violence at the moment that even with Detroit once again the murder capital of the USA, the police fear that many homicides go unreported; the people are just tired of calling 911 and having no one show up.

http://detnews.com/article/20090128...goes-on-around-body-found-in-vacant-warehouse

Yeah, it's like that.


----------



## Makalakumu

Twin Fist said:


> WTF!!!
> 
> are you seriously trying to claim that the military is ruining the country???
> 
> ****ing seriously?



Yup.  The wellfare and warfare state go hand in hand, they both steal from the unborn, selling a portion of their labor into bondage without their consent, and they erode the moral fabric of society.  

The Left has propaganda that denies this about the wellfare state.
The Right has propaganda that denies this about the warefare state.

Libertarians recognize that both of these institutions are immoral and that they need to be severely curbed.

That's the kind of message I'm bringing to these gatherings.


----------



## Empty Hands

Bill Mattocks said:


> But I read their Twitter feeds, and it's all this violent rhetoric; not the stuff being reported on the news.  Maybe it's just words; but it frightens and angers me.



I don't doubt it.  People say a lot of stupid things.  Particularly stupid or violent people.  And particularly on the Internet.  The difficulty in interpretation though is in extrapolating the words or even actions of a few or even a few hundred onto a large group of many thousands, and a nation of over 300 million people.  Archimedes said "give me a lever large enough and I will move the world."  How large a lever does one guy ******** on a police car or 20 people shoving security guards or 200 people making violent comments on the internet make?  I would argue a small one indeed.



Bill Mattocks said:


> I also have a very negative memory of the 1960's in terms of social unrest.  It may have been the 'Summer of Love' in San Francisco, but in the Midwest, protesters were occupying government and school buildings, building and setting off bombs, and rioting.



I wasn't alive then, but I know of it.  I don't doubt that it was very unfair to people like yourself.  For all that today's conservatives like BillC love to make hay out of the violence of the left wing in the 60's, an important fact to keep in mind is that violence was being perpetrated the other way in some situations for centuries.  The difference?  You weren't exposed to it, it was out of your sight.  You weren't the target of the Klan.  You weren't prevented from voting.  And so forth.  Not that that justifies _anything_ - you weren't responsible.  You shouldn't have been targeted.  But the violence in the 60's didn't come from nowhere.  It was a response brewed over decades and centuries previously.

That also explains in part why we are unlikely to see a flash over into widespread violence today.  The arc of the universe has been bending towards justice since then, and we don't have the tinderbox we used to.



Bill Mattocks said:


> Now since 2001, we're heroes again, right?  Except yeah, not so much when it comes to Occupy Wall Street.  They 'speak for us' but they actually hate us if you scratch the surface.



Again, I don't doubt that describes some.  Even many.  How does that translate into the movement and the nation as a whole though?  

It can be hard to separate the people involved from the injustices seen.  Our military has been used in immoral and unjust ways.  It's hard for some people to separate that from the individual service members themselves.  For my part, I neither lionize nor despise service members.  They do a difficult and dangerous and sometimes necessary job, and I appreciate them for that.  I would shake a Marine's hand and thank him for this service, I would never spit on them or call them names.  I'm not going to fall all over myself though like some people think is necessary.  I don't worship the military.  Or law enforcement.  That's an ugly and dangerous path too.


----------



## Big Don

Makalakumu said:


> Yup.  The wellfare and warfare state go hand in hand, they both steal from the unborn, selling a portion of their labor into bondage without their consent, and they erode the moral fabric of society.
> 
> The Left has propaganda that denies this about the wellfare state.
> The Right has propaganda that denies this about the warefare state.
> 
> Libertarians recognize that both of these institutions are immoral and that they need to be severely curbed.
> 
> That's the kind of message I'm bringing to these gatherings.


Then maybe you deserve a beating...
BTW, what warfare state?


----------



## Twin Fist

how dare you.....



Makalakumu said:


> Yup.  The wellfare and warfare state go hand in hand, they both steal from the unborn, selling a portion of their labor into bondage without their consent, and they erode the moral fabric of society.
> 
> The Left has propaganda that denies this about the wellfare state.
> The Right has propaganda that denies this about the warefare state.
> 
> Libertarians recognize that both of these institutions are immoral and that they need to be severely curbed.
> 
> That's the kind of message I'm bringing to these gatherings.


----------



## Flying Crane

Makalakumu said:


> Yup. The wellfare and warfare state go hand in hand, they both steal from the unborn, selling a portion of their labor into bondage without their consent, and they erode the moral fabric of society.
> 
> The Left has propaganda that denies this about the wellfare state.
> The Right has propaganda that denies this about the warefare state.
> 
> Libertarians recognize that both of these institutions are immoral and that they need to be severely curbed.
> 
> That's the kind of message I'm bringing to these gatherings.



I gotta agree with you here.  The military has been mis-used and abused for quite a few years now.  Honestly, I feel sorry for the service members who have been so grossly abused by the government.



Empty Hands said:


> It can be hard to separate the people involved from the injustices seen. Our military has been used in immoral and unjust ways. It's hard for some people to separate that from the individual service members themselves. For my part, I neither lionize nor despise service members. They do a difficult and dangerous and sometimes necessary job, and I appreciate them for that. I would shake a Marine's hand and thank him for this service, I would never spit on them or call them names. I'm not going to fall all over myself though like some people think is necessary. I don't worship the military. Or law enforcement. That's an ugly and dangerous path too.



For my part, I don't see military service as a reason to automatically extend respect to an individual.  Respect has to be earned and I give respect based on what kind of person someone shows him/herself to be.  I am sure many service personnel are well worthy of respect.  Others are complete a-holes and don't deserve any respect from anyone.  Just like any subset of the population.

But if someone says in essence, "Hey, I'm a serviceman, respect me!"  well, no.  Show me you are a person deserving respect, and I'll give you respect.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Anyone else think it's highly unusual for Bill, John and I to be pretty much in agreement on an issue? Just sayin.....


----------



## WC_lun

Rebellion and armed actions are pretty labor intensive, not to mention very risky to person's health.  Seems if so many of these people are as lazy and apethetic as you believe, you have absolutly nothing to worry about.  

So far the violence associated with these protest has been minimal.  It really does look like for the most part they have no interest in rioting or violence.  It also looks like the media is using what little they do find to prop up stories in order to create more fear.  I guess that is only an issue when it is done against people you agree with.

Disagree with as much as you want of anything said by anyone involved OWS.  However, when you resort to name calling and stereotypes in place of solid arguement, your opposition becomes watered down to the point of ridiculousness.  Like it or not, these people have the right to protest.  Fight thier messages, not set up some straw men in order to scare the ignorant.


----------



## Twin Fist

putting on the uniform and saying "i got it, you can relax tonight, i will keep you safe"

that right there earns that respect

and if you wont give it? that says a lot about you



Flying Crane said:


> But if someone says in essence, "Hey, I'm a serviceman, respect me!"  well, no.  Show me you are a person deserving respect, and I'll give you respect.


----------



## Empty Hands

Hey BillC, can you tell me why this:












is perfectly safe, patriotic, and wholesome free speech, while this:








is a violent and dangerous mob ready to riot and overthrow the government at a moment's notice?

It really is Team Blue vs. Team Red on these threads.


----------



## Makalakumu

Bob Hubbard said:


> Anyone else think it's highly unusual for Bill, John and I to be pretty much in agreement on an issue? Just sayin.....



Well, this is a MAJOR issue in these protests.  When the largest portion of the Federal budget (and a large slice of the debt pie) is related to military spending, it's got to be addressed.  IMO, we can't keep spending over a trillion per year on defense, support 700 military bases abroad, and commit all kinds of obscene atrocities all over the world and hope to remain free and prosperous.  The military industrial complex is so big that it drives foreign policy.  It is a self licking ice cream cone...it creates the reason for it's own existence.  We have to address this and we MUST wade our way through the propaganda to do this.  

The bottom line is that military service has very little to do with national defense.  The string pullers are multinational corporations and banks who use the "volunteers" to project power (aka intimidate) and nation build (take out governments not favorable).  Cutting the budget and becoming freer means that we need to lay the smack down on the flag waving propaganda that separates the fantasy from reality.  

We will be so much freer and so much more prosperous as a country when we do this.  It's a key step in actually solving many of the crucial problems our country faces.


----------



## Twin Fist

maybe you ought to spend some time in the military before you go flappin your pie hole about it


----------



## Makalakumu

That's not going to help at all. We need to change directions and slay sacred cows. Big time.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Twin Fist

you are just words on a screen, you dont matter at all


----------



## Sukerkin

Calmly gentlemen, please.  Emotive issues cause emotive outbursts, particularly amongst posters that 'know' each other but it is not rational, in what is supposed to be a discussion forum, to derail things with personal abuse.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

So, what should all those out of work soldiers do for a living then?
What about all the defense contractors who will have to downsize and shut down?
What will all their employees do once they are also out of work?
What about the loss of tax revenues as those companies close up or scale back, and plants go idle, and land is abandoned?

Military spending is about 25% of the budget in 2011. 




 *$928.5 billion in defense spending*
 *$898 billion in health care expenditures*
 *$787.6 billion in pensions*
 *$464.6 billion in welfare spending*
 *$250.7 billion on interest payments*
 *$151.4 billion in other spending including basic research*
 *$140.9 billion for education     *
 *$104.2 billion for transportation*
 *$57.3 billion in protective services such as police, fire, law courts*
 *$29 billion in general government expenses*


----------



## Makalakumu

Bob Hubbard said:


> So, what should all those out of work soldiers do for a living then?
> What about all the defense contractors who will have to downsize and shut down?
> What will all their employees do once they are also out of work?
> What about the loss of tax revenues as those companies close up or scale back, and plants go idle, and land is abandoned?



How about stop killing and polluting for starters...

Private industry will take over and replace them with productive activities.

Here's another graph for your displeasure...

View attachment $pieFY09.gif

It all depends on what you are counting.  I think of the two businesses I run along side being employed for another and I KNOW that this wasted money could be put to peaceful and productive use in my community for the betterment of myself and my community through the pursuance of my self interest.

This is only one half of the coin though.  The Wellfare state must also be tackled.


----------



## Empty Hands

Bob Hubbard said:


> So, what should all those out of work soldiers do for a living then?
> What about all the defense contractors who will have to downsize and shut down?
> What will all their employees do once they are also out of work?



I thought government didn't create jobs. 

By the arguments on this site, if the government could cut taxes by 25%, that would enable business to spend more money creating jobs, which would be done more efficiently than the government, and would stimulate demand.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

So, the answer to 'handle being unemployed' is 'stop killing'.
Gotcha.

here's an idea.
Limit the fed to just the specified Constitutional stuff.

That would save a fortune. From all those social programs and interventions.

We'd still have the military.
It's authorized.


----------



## billc

Hmmm...I don't remember any reports of firearm related violence at any tea party gathering.  Also, citizens carrying firearms is perfectly normal as far as I'm concerned.  This is a site devoted to self-defense and the martial arts after all and the freedom to be armed is a great part of this countries history...As long as they aren't used to commit crimes.  The guys on the top were peaceful and non-violent.  That's all that really counts.    They didn't block streets, pin security guards, spit or "defecate" on police cars, and believe me, if they had done any of those things, you would never have heard the end of it.  Has anyone heard anything on the main stream news media about the bad behavior yet by the OWS?


----------



## Makalakumu

Bob Hubbard said:


> So, the answer to 'handle being unemployed' is 'stop killing'.



That's the right thing to do.  When the slaves were freed the argument was, who is going to pick all of the grain?  What about all of the unemployed?

I'd be cool with going Constitutional with the military.  It would make it a lot smaller, IMO.


----------



## Big Don

Makalakumu said:


> I'd be cool with going Constitutional with the military.  It would make it a lot smaller, IMO.


That's nice, but, completely NOT what Bob suggested...


----------



## Bob Hubbard

So, are we talking about firing just the military that's out murdering babies and raping kids, or the other 90% that's support staff, supply ops and boat drivers, etc?

With a smaller military, and a severely cut back back-end supply system, how do you propose defending our borders?

Should we even bother? After all, 1 demand is full open borders, a concept I'm certain terrorists and criminals would never try to take advantage of.

We have about 3 million in uniform. A 66% elimination rate would add 2 million to the US unemployment rate, or an increase of .5-1%. Adding in a similar downsizing of the 'defense industry', you would see an addition of 4 million unemployed, raising the national rate 1-3%. 

We're already at 9% now. That would boost it to 10-12%.
In addition, it would greatly increase the burden on State budgets as some states see huge increases in demand for unemployment benefits.
Another $1.6 Billion per week in payments. $84B more a year.

Maybe we can raise taxes on those 5,000 Rich people 4% so we can pay those 4 Million people to sit at home?


----------



## Makalakumu

The money flow back into the Free Market and the economy would grow again. The status quo is not an option. If you think the economy is bad now, wait until we actually have to pay for what we've done overseas. 

Monetary reform is also a priority. It's part of the problem as well.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Makalakumu

Big Don said:


> That's nice, but, completely NOT what Bob suggested...


 
Yes it is. A return to the Constitution would eliminate the national bank and put us on a gold standard, which would limit what the government could spend on defense. Therefore no huge military, no more empire, and more freedom and prosperity for all.



Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Doesn't answer the questions though.

Who pays for the unemployment of all those people?

You don't seriously think the 5,000 'super rich' in this country owe it to them to support 5 million unemployed people do you?
You don't think that insisting they do that, then insist they make businesses for these people to work at is fair do you?
You don't think the government should take over things and provide them with jobs do you?
Especially not after firing them from government jobs to begin with?

Trying to get a handle on how you think this would be an improvement, and I'm failing.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Makalakumu said:


> Yes it is. A return to the Constitution would eliminate the national bank and put us on a gold standard, which would limit what the government could spend on defense. Therefore no huge military, no more empire, and more freedom and prosperity for all.



First part true.
Second part, maybe.

Eliminating the military is fine. As long as we can trust the rest of the world.
We can't.
The US has much more freedom than most of the world. Last I looked I didn't have armed troops in force wandering my streets. 
Was a bit different in Cozumel.
I feel pretty free.  Still working on that prosperity thing, but I'm not working at a government assigned job, I set my own hours, my own wages, and my own rules for what I do.
So, pretty free here.


----------



## Makalakumu

A well regulated militia would be enough to protect our borders. A well armed citizenry would scare off any imperial powers. It was all there in the Constitution, we just needed to follow it.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Big Don

Makalakumu said:


> Yes it is. A return to the Constitution would eliminate the national bank and put us on a gold standard, which would limit what the government could spend on defense. Therefore no huge military, no more empire, and more freedom and prosperity for all.
> Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


Except, he wasn't limiting a return to constitutiality to the military and the federal reserve. Making every dime spent by the government have a constitutional backing, would DRASTICALLY cut social programs, the epa, osha, etc


----------



## Bob Hubbard

So this
View attachment $El_Paso06_Group-723283.jpg

will beat this?
View attachment $China_tanks2.jpg


----------



## Makalakumu

It's working for the Afghans.

And Don, yes it would limit other social programs. The military is a social program as well.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Bob Hubbard

So, you think Afghanistan is a stable, safe nation?


----------



## Twin Fist

so bob, how's your head? cuz, just reading this retarded **** is making mine hurt like hell...


----------



## Makalakumu

Bob Hubbard said:


> So, you think Afghanistan is a stable, safe nation?


 
Do we need a standing army to have a stable and age nation?

That's a red herring BTW. 

The real thing that needs to be discussed are the real costs and benefits of a modern army. A minarchist Constitutional approach is going to have as little as possible in order to do the job. The Founding Fathers were clearly against standing armies and empires because they could see the havoc that they wrought in Europe. That's why they limited the monetary system and designed the Constitution with amendments that shift the burden of defense to the people and limit the federal governments ability to make war.

When you really think about it, it makes sense that big wasteful armies can only defeat other big wasteful armies. It's just  another byproduct of the inefficiency of government. It's another way for the parasitic class to prey on the productive. 

No army can invade a populace that has a free market in defense. 

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Makalakumu

> so bob, how's your head? cuz, just reading this retarded **** is making mine hurt like hell...



It's okay if you don't understand. You went to government school and got a good fascist education.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Bob Hubbard

> Do we need a standing army to have a stable and age nation?


In todays world, yes. The average American has long been removed from his legal duty to drill and maintain good order. Correcting that could take upwards of a generation. Would you leave our borders defenseless?



> No army can invade a populace that has a free market in defense.



I think a guy named Rommel might disagree with that.

Downsizing the military would put millions out of work, directly impact the economy in a negative manner, for over a year at best. 
There is currently no place for them to go. There are no businesses with a demand for workers. Glutting the market with even more unemployed would not generate more consumers to create more demand which would cause business growth.
There would be a 2-3 year period of 'pain' as even more people lost homes, and in some cases lives.

Unless the answer is government ownership of housing, everyone can get a bunk in the barracks. The government can also assign you a job, and take the burden of food shopping away as youll eat for 'free' in the on-site cafeteria.


----------



## Makalakumu

Bob, the  alternative is total collapse. You will lose all your liberty and all of your property. It will be fed to the beast. We have no choice but to cut the guns and butter state deep and yeah its going to hurt, but that's the price we'll have to pay. There is no way around it unless you want to give up your freedom and property.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Makalakumu

And the Constitution is good enough for me when it comes to defense. We don't live in a free market yet, so we need the state for some things at the moment. 

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Makalakumu said:


> Bob, the  alternative is total collapse. You will lose all your liberty and all of your property. It will be fed to the beast. We have no choice but to cut the guns and butter state deep and yeah its going to hurt, but that's the price we'll have to pay. There is no way around it unless you want to give up your freedom and property.
> 
> Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk



So, the options are:
-total collapse, and lose my freedom and property 
or
-let the government take it, live in government housing, work a government job, and eat government food, so I can keep my freedom and property.

Didn't they try this in Cuba? Soviet Russia? North Korea? A few other places?

I mean, how do I not have freedom now?

How do I not have property now? That Prius I'm driving around in...who owns that again?  The house I'm going to buy....that won't be mine?

Last I checked, I didn't need to carry papers, don't need permission to move about the country, can even visit other countries without waiting months for permission. Hell, I've got an invitation to Europe next year. You mean I have to get a permission slip?  ****. I don't even know where to start looking for that.

I think it would hurt a lot more if we downsize like you suggest. Once Chinese tanks level Maui and Mexican drug lords have taken Tempe, we might wish we'd kept some of those jets flying and tanks operational.  

Are you ok with being told what job you'll be doing? Told to shut down your school and cease teaching the art you love because it's not on the 'allowed' list?

Not me. I want less government, however I recognize that only a fool lays down their arms in a hostile environment.  But, rather than argue, lets wait 2 years. We can check how California is doing then, considering they just put up a huge welcome sign for illegals, quintupled their tax burden by offering free educations to illegals, and are working hard to fully demilitarize their law abiding citizens.  I bet the crime rate drops like a rock soon, the economy booms, and lifestyles will just be awesome.

I'm sorry, but I just can't see things the way you appear to be seeing them.  I still view these protesters (paid by Obama supporters) and their nutty demands (which show a lack of understanding of economics, human nature, or practicality, as well as history) as dangerous to a free society.


----------



## Makalakumu

The collapse will lead to more government. And I'm not saying we don't need any guns. We just need to downsize big time and end the empire. How much does China spend on defense? 

Downsizing won't lead to anything but more wealth and freedom for us all.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Big Don

[h=2]FIGHT TO HOLD WALLSTREET ACCOUNTABLE NOW! MAKE A DIFFERNENCE GET PAID![/h]  Date: 2011-09-26,  5:09PM EDT
Reply to: job-fvgsu-2618821815@craigslist.org [SUP][Errors when replying to ads?][/SUP]  

                   The Working Families Party (WFP) (www.workingfamiliesparty.org)  is New York's most energetic,         independent and progressive political party. Formed in 1998 by a  grassroots coalition of community organizations, neighborhood  activists, and labor         unions, we came together to build a society that works for all  of us, not just Wall Street CEOs and the well-connected. WFP is  independent from         corporate and government funding and in-addition we are  community based; community funded and equally uninfluenced by both major  parties. Our agenda focuses on        * economic and social justice, corporate  accountability, job creation, environmental protection, and investment  in education and healthcare.* 
For the past twelve years the WFP has been at the fore front of progressive politics,​ Leading the fight and helping to frame the debate. The WFP has a  proud record of fighting for issues that matter and has been  instrumental in         implementing key pieces of legislation such as _Raising_ _             New York's Minimum Wage, Enacting Living Wage Laws, Creating  Thousands of Jobs In the Green Economy, Passing Healthcare Reforms on  the Local Level,             Fighting for Affordable Housing, Keeping Tuition Costs Low, A  Progressive Tax Code, Reliable/Cost Effective Public Transit System,         _ _Public Financing Of Elections and Corporate Accountability_         . In addition, we have an unapologetic stance on supporting and  pushing good candidates to enact progressive legislation​ The WFP is seeking immediate hires.​ You must be an energetic communicator, with a passion for social and economic justice.​ Only outgoing, articulate dedicated, determined candidates will be considered for the positions.​ For those candidates that qualify WFP offers substantial  paid-training provided by senior leadership, on varied issues such as:  advocacy, public         speaking, mobilizing, fundraising, networking and organizing. We  invest in passionate people with excellent communication skills and a  full benefits         package is offered to those candidates that qualify. In  addition, there is opportunity for advancement and travel to our  satellite chapters and out of         state affiliates.​ This is not a policy job!   Through direct action you will be shaping NY state politics for the next 20 years.​ If you care about New York and want to help educate and mobilize  around legislative campaigns-then we look forward to hearing from you!​ 
Apply at http://www.workingfamiliesparty.org/jobs/.​ 




 Compensation: $350-$650 A Week Depending On Responsibility & Length Of Time On Staff
Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
Please, no phone calls about this job!
Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
 

 
 PostingID: 2618821815


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Makalakumu said:


> The collapse will lead to more government. And I'm not saying we don't need any guns. We just need to downsize big time and end the empire. How much does China spend on defense?
> 
> Downsizing won't lead to anything but more wealth and freedom for us all.



Why? How?

There isn't a limit currently on wealth. Though some idiots want to cap the max you can make.
But right now, if I want to put the time in, and do what I need to do, I can make a few million by Christmas.
I'm unaware that there's a quota set for 41 yr old geeks from WNY who like shooting hot chicks in their underwear and bragging about it on web forums.

Wealth is limitless. Everyone can get a share, they only have to -work- for it.
Having a highly marketable idea helps.



Anyone want to buy a slightly used pet rock?


----------



## Big Don

Big Don said:


> Apply at http://www.workingfamiliesparty.org/jobs/.​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compensation: $350-$650 A Week Depending On Responsibility & Length Of Time On Staff
> Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
> Please, no phone calls about this job!
> Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PostingID: 2618821815


That isn't, btw, the $20per hour "Living wage"...


----------



## Big Don

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm unaware that there's a quota set for 41 yr old geeks from WNY who like shooting hot chicks in their underwear and bragging about it on web forums.


I'm withholding the smart *** remarks... for now


----------



## Makalakumu

Being released from the tax burden of empire, American citizens would prosper like never before. The threat from terrorism would drop because our foreign policy is no longer creating terrorists. Entire departments could be dismantled, starting with homeland security and propaganda....err I mean education. Productive sectors of the economy would build rather being flushed down the blowing stuff up hole. Cutting defense is the first step toward a new American renaissance.

Your thoughts on wealth probably need a new thread. They are checked by the system of currency we use now, though. It's limited by definition.

I'm back. It was fun. Gave lots of lefties and righties earfulls.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Big Don

Makalakumu said:


> Being released from the tax burden of empire,


 There is not and never has been an American Empire.





> American citizens would prosper like never before. The threat from terrorism would drop because our foreign policy is no longer creating terrorists.


**** *** *** ******** ****





> Entire departments could be dismantled, starting with homeland security


 Which, conservatives said was completely unnecessary.





> and propaganda....err I mean education.


Which conservatives said was completely unnecessary





> Productive sectors of the economy would build rather being flushed down the blowing stuff up hole. Cutting defense is the first step toward a new American renaissance.
> 
> Your thoughts on wealth probably need a new thread. They are checked by the system of currency we use now, though. It's limited by definition.
> 
> I'm back. It was fun. Gave lots of lefties and righties earfulls.
> 
> Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Big Don said:


> There is not and never has been an American Empire.



Tell that to his Imperial Majesty Emperor Norton I, "Emperor of these United States" and "Protector of Mexico".


----------



## Big Don

Bob Hubbard said:


> Tell that to his Imperial Majesty Emperor Norton I, "Emperor of these United States" and "Protector of Mexico".


That guy, and apparently a poster or two, and some of the assorted nutjobs are the only ones who believe that.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

[h=2]This Week in Government Failure[/h]                   			Posted by Tad DeHaven 
          	Over at Downsizing the Federal Government, we focused on the following issues this past week:


When it comes to such things as infrastructure, education, and investing in &#8220;industries of the future,&#8221; the government should get out of the way and let entrepreneurs and markets drive America&#8217;s prosperity in the global economy.
Entitlements versus Liberty.
It seems that the more the government intervenes in society, the more it will work against both the people and itself.
It&#8217;s Congress that needs to be doing the &#8220;page by page, line by line&#8221; review of the federal budget.
We can spur growth by encouraging a culture of entrepreneurship,  repealing barriers to entry, reducing taxes on risky investments, and  simply getting out of the way of the next generation of Steve Jobses.
 Follow Downsizing the Federal Government on Twitter (@DownsizeTheFeds) and connect with us on Facebook.


----------



## Makalakumu

Big Don said:


> There is not and never has been an American Empire.


 
2+2=5 

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Twin Fist

sorry, but i literally cant believe any adult can suggest this ............crap with a straight face.

I have to ask, are you high?


----------



## Monroe

None of this stuff represents what I see of the occupywallstreet crowd. I see American friends online that are still angry that Wall Street triggered a double dip recession. In fact, the double dip seems to be the real trigger here. And they're getting angry looking at the compensation differences. They're angry that CEO's were rewarded for failure. 

http://heritageinstitute.com/governance/compensation.htm#Average_Compensation_of_CEOs


*Country* *Year 2000 CEO compensation as a multiple of average employee compensation** US531Brazil57Venezuela54South Africa51Argentina48Malaysia47Mexico45Hong Kong38Singapore37Britain25Thailand23Australia22Netherlands22Canada21China (Shanghai)21Belgium19Italy19Spain18New Zealand16France16Taiwan15Sweden14Germany11South Korea11Switzerland11Japan10
Source: Towers Perrin & Finfacts
(*Employee  compensation used to calculate these averages were those working in  industrial companies with about $500 million in annual sales.) 

Most of my American friends are 20-35 yo and they're even split for conservative and liberal (Most of my Canadian and British friends are liberal.) Things are going to need to change because this isn't a left vs right issue as I'm seeing it. Social mobility has decreased and cost of living has increased and wages haven't moved. I see anger and hostility growing and if something doesn't improve for the middle classes in the US it's going to get messy.


----------



## Big Don

Makalakumu said:


> 2+2=5
> 
> Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


 Yeah, that is the type of WRONG math you're using, We know.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

It was government involvement that caused the depression we're in, and it's government involvement that is causing it to last past the normal 2-3 year period.

They have 
1 flooded the economy with more money, trillions of dollars.  Result, higher prices.
2 bailed out 'cant fail' businesses. Result, higher debt, businesses still screwing up.
3 Allowed other businesses to fail. Result, displaced workers.
4 2 + 3 equals interference in the normal righting process, delaying the redistribution of resources needed to right the economy naturally.
5 paid out multiple 'stimuluses'. Result, short term ease, long term debt.
6 taken control of numerous companies. Result, government is now in the banking, investment, loan and auto industries. Unconstitutional. Further interference delaying the normal correction.


As to CEO earnings, here's a few questions:
- Why is no one marching on the NFL to bring Quarterback pay into line too?
- Does a CEO earning $1B mean there is $1B less for you?
- How many of those CEO's make a pittance in salary, but earn nice bonuses if the company does well?
-- Would you want to work under the same terms?  (Note, I do. My salary is $1 per year.)
- Do you really think that the 'rank and file' who 'works 9-5' deserve the same compensation as a CEO who may work 7 days a week and put in 12+ hour days?
- Should the US limit peoples ability to earn because other countries do too?


----------



## Big Don

Bob Hubbard said:


> It was government involvement that caused the depression we're in, and it's government involvement that is causing it to last past the normal 2-3 year period.
> 
> They have
> 1 flooded the economy with more money, trillions of dollars.  Result, higher prices.
> 2 bailed out 'cant fail' businesses. Result, higher debt, businesses still screwing up.
> 3 Allowed other businesses to fail. Result, displaced workers.
> 4 2 + 3 equals interference in the normal righting process, delaying the redistribution of resources needed to right the economy naturally.
> 5 paid out multiple 'stimuluses'. Result, short term ease, long term debt.
> 6 taken control of numerous companies. Result, government is now in the banking, investment, loan and auto industries. Unconstitutional. Further interference delaying the normal correction.
> 
> 
> As to CEO earnings, here's a few questions:
> - Why is no one marching on the NFL to bring Quarterback pay into line too?
> - Does a CEO earning $1B mean there is $1B less for you?
> - How many of those CEO's make a pittance in salary, but earn nice bonuses if the company does well?
> -- Would you want to work under the same terms?  (Note, I do. My salary is $1 per year.)
> - Do you really think that the 'rank and file' who 'works 9-5' deserve the same compensation as a CEO who may work 7 days a week and put in 12+ hour days?
> - Should the US limit peoples ability to earn because other countries do too?


QFT and amplification


----------



## Empty Hands

Bob Hubbard said:


> 1 flooded the economy with more money, trillions of dollars.  Result, higher prices.



Prices are not uniformly higher.  Core inflation is still very low - we were actually in a few quarters of _deflation _a while back.  Cheap money is obviously not the reason for price hikes in certain sectors (i.e. energy and health).



Bob Hubbard said:


> Do you really think that the 'rank and file' who 'works 9-5' deserve the same compensation as a CEO who may work 7 days a week and put in 12+ hour days?



This is just agitprop.  The rich are rich because they are better people.  You have no idea what average CEO working hours are.  You can't point to one CEO like Bill Gates who famously worked long hours and then claim they all do.  I work 80 hour weeks.  Where is my $500 million if that's how it's supposed to work?  CEOs also get paid when they fail spectacularly, not too many of us can claim that, no matter how hard we work.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Empty Hands said:


> Prices are not uniformly higher.  Core inflation is still very low - we were actually in a few quarters of _deflation _a while back.  Cheap money is obviously not the reason for price hikes in certain sectors (i.e. energy and health).



Yes, inflation is very low, 0% in some areas in fact. Not a good thing.



> This is just agitprop.  The rich are rich because they are better people.  You have no idea what average CEO working hours are.  You can't point to one CEO like Bill Gates who famously worked long hours and then claim they all do.  I work 80 hour weeks.  Where is my $500 million if that's how it's supposed to work?  CEOs also get paid when they fail spectacularly, not too many of us can claim that, no matter how hard we work.


I work 60+ hour weeks. Not rich either. I don't get paid when things suck either.
I also never said 'all do'.  I'm sure Trumps work week is quite short these days.
I wonder what it was in his early years.


----------



## Monroe

Bob Hubbard said:


> It was government involvement that caused the depression we're in, and it's government involvement that is causing it to last past the normal 2-3 year period.
> 
> They have
> 1 flooded the economy with more money, trillions of dollars.  Result, higher prices.
> 2 bailed out 'cant fail' businesses. Result, higher debt, businesses still screwing up.
> 3 Allowed other businesses to fail. Result, displaced workers.
> 4 2 + 3 equals interference in the normal righting process, delaying the redistribution of resources needed to right the economy naturally.
> 5 paid out multiple 'stimuluses'. Result, short term ease, long term debt.
> 6 taken control of numerous companies. Result, government is now in the banking, investment, loan and auto industries. Unconstitutional. Further interference delaying the normal correction.
> 
> 
> As to CEO earnings, here's a few questions:
> - Why is no one marching on the NFL to bring Quarterback pay into line too? *I think it's ridiculous too. Did any quarterbacks expect a bailout?*
> - Does a CEO earning $1B mean there is $1B less for you? *Absolutely not. *
> - How many of those CEO's make a pittance in salary, but earn nice bonuses if the company does well? *I don't mind those bonuses until they get bail outs or their company goes under and they still get a bonus. *
> -- Would you want to work under the same terms?  (Note, I do. My salary is $1 per year.) *Are you going to still going to be rewarded if your company lays off thousands of employees because it's going under?*
> - Do you really think that the 'rank and file' who 'works 9-5' deserve the same compensation as a CEO who may work 7 days a week and put in 12+ hour days? *No. I expect them to be more in line with the average worker as I see in Canada and the UK.*
> - Should the US limit peoples ability to earn because other countries do too? *I don't see CEO's earnings being legally limited in Canada. Just being reasonable.*



I didn't agree with government bailing out businesses in the first place.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

> Did any quarterbacks expect a bailout?



No clue. Not a football fan.



> I don't mind those bonuses until they get bail outs or their company goes under and they still get a bonus.


Unless you understand the particulars of those cases, and each is different,  you can't keep them in perspective.
In some of those cases, there were contractual requirements. In some, it was greed.



> Are you going to still going to be rewarded if your company lays off thousands of employees because it's going under?


Nope, just the 1 employee gets canned, and I don't get a reward for he is me.



> No. I expect them to be more in line with the average worker as I see in Canada and the UK.



Average people don't become CEO's. Or Quarterbacks in the NFL for that matter.
Average people muddle along in the 20-50k range, work 9-5, live modestly and half the time don't bother to vote.



> I don't see CEO's earnings being legally limited in Canada. Just being reasonable.


What is 'reasonable'?
I say, if someone can earn it legally, let them.  Sky's the limit.


----------



## Monroe

Bob Hubbard said:


> No clue. Not a football fan.
> 
> 
> Unless you understand the particulars of those cases, and each is different,  you can't keep them in perspective.
> In some of those cases, there were contractual requirements. In some, it was greed.
> 
> *I know about the contractual agreements. It shouldn't be allowed. *
> 
> 
> Nope, just the 1 employee gets canned, and I don't get a reward for he is me.
> 
> *I'd be a lot more happy if CEO's were actually held responsible for their failures. *
> 
> Average people don't become CEO's. Or Quarterbacks in the NFL for that matter.
> Average people muddle along in the 20-50k range, work 9-5, live modestly and half the time don't bother to vote.
> 
> *I didn't say they should earn the same as the average person. When there are such extreme differences between the average person and CEO's income, it starts to make the US look like pre-revolutionary France. *
> 
> What is 'reasonable'?
> I say, if someone can earn it legally, let them.  Sky's the limit.


 *I say, if the people are struggling to get by and the rich grow in wealth at these extremes, a divide between rich and poor becomes hostile. Social mobility is falling  in the US and you're looking more and more like old Europe. If something isn't done, America is going to burn and I'd hate to see that happen. *


----------



## Flying Crane

Bob Hubbard said:


> But right now, if I want to put the time in, and do what I need to do, I can make a few million by Christmas.



no, you couldn't.  If it's that easy, then do it.  Prove me wrong.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Flying Crane said:


> no, you couldn't.  If it's that easy, then do it.  Prove me wrong.


Ok, MartialTalk is now paid-member only. 
That will be $22 * 13,000 = $286,000.
I shoot 1 wedding a day for the rest of the year, that's another $100-120k
So $400k.
Max out all forum ad space, there's the rest.
Work in some quick flips, some fast payoff investments, and it's doable.
I'd be dead by New Years from 20 hr days, stress and too much caffeine.

I never said it was easy.
I said " if I want to put the time in, and do what I need to do".

Hey, go put 40 hours a week in, every week, looking for a job. Walk miles, put in applications -everywhere-, look your best, make sure each resume you put in is optimized to that particular employer, research the company, practice your interviewing skills, get a suit coat and have it cleaned and pressed ($7 at 2nd hand shop, $5 at dry cleaners. $12 you look 100% better). Cut your hair, lose the earings, cover the tats, learn how to speak english, realize that you might have been a mid-level manager before, but now that burger needs to be flipped and you win too good to do it.
You'll have a job in a short period of time.

Know what the biggest complaint of retail managers is?
Dumb *** lazy employees who think they are owed some special treatment for showing up only 20 minutes late.
I've worked retail next to too many of these 'specialists', who think mopping a floor is below them, that wiping a table means smearing it, and that their texting their friends is more important than doing the job they are being paid to do.

See FC, here's the rub.
I don't have to prove you wrong.
Right now, somewhere, someone else is doing just that. 
It's not me, sorry, not 'hungry' enough right now to do that. Not focused enough.


----------



## Flying Crane

Bob Hubbard said:


> See FC, here's the rub.
> I don't have to prove you wrong.
> Right now, somewhere, someone else is doing just that.
> It's not me, sorry, not 'hungry' enough right now to do that. Not focused enough.



You claimed you could do it.  So do it.  I don't believe you can.  Not for a minute.  It's not that easy.


----------



## Empty Hands

Bob Hubbard said:


> Ok, MartialTalk is now paid-member only.
> That will be $22 * 13,000 = $286,000.
> I shoot 1 wedding a day for the rest of the year, that's another $100-120k
> So $400k.
> Max out all forum ad space, there's the rest.
> Work in some quick flips, some fast payoff investments, and it's doable.



There are some truly massive assumptions built into those calculations.  How many weddings occur in October or January from Monday-Thursday?  How many of those 13,000 MT members would actually pay instead of just going somewhere else that is free?  And so on.


----------



## Steve

Being serious, Bob.  Of the 13,000 "members" of MT, how many post regularly?  I'm guessing fewer than 5%.  I'd actually not be surprised if it was closer to 1%.  

Secondly, is it realistic to suggest that you could shoot a wedding every single day for the rest of the year?  Presuming people get married during the week (which is atypical), could you even book these gigs?  

I can just as easily throw out some unrealistic figures, throw in some grossly hyperbolic overtime numbers and get them to equal $1,000,000, but that's not really what's being discussed.

Regarding retail, I'll tell you what my opinion is.  Poor management.  Actually, I take that back.  No management.  That's the problem with many retail stores.  You can tell within seconds of walking into a retail store whether it is well managed or not.  It is reflected in everything from the tidyness of the store to the displays to the behavior and demeanor of the employees.  

Well managed stores _develop_ good employees.  We've all been in McDonalds that have been well run and poorly run.  You know the difference.  Same product.  Same process.  Vastly different results.  It's not rocket science.  Good managers are invisible, quietly keeping things running smoothly.  Bad managers complain... but never about themselves. 

If you're a retail manager and you're complaining about lazy employees, you have only yourself to blame.  You're hiring the wrong people.  Or more likely, you're failing to develop the right people.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Flying Crane said:


> You claimed you could do it.  So do it.  I don't believe you can.  Not for a minute.  It's not that easy.



What part of "I never said it was easy" is not coming through here? 

Here, let me help.

Its Not Easy!



Empty Hands said:


> There are some truly massive assumptions built into those calculations.  How many weddings occur in October or January from Monday-Thursday?  How many of those 13,000 MT members would actually pay instead of just going somewhere else that is free?  And so on.



Yes. I said possible. I did not say probable.



stevebjj said:


> Being serious, Bob.  Of the 13,000 "members" of MT, how many post regularly?  I'm guessing fewer than 5%.  I'd actually not be surprised if it was closer to 1%.
> 
> Secondly, is it realistic to suggest that you could shoot a wedding every single day for the rest of the year?  Presuming people get married during the week (which is atypical), could you even book these gigs?
> 
> I can just as easily throw out some unrealistic figures, throw in some grossly hyperbolic overtime numbers and get them to equal $1,000,000, but that's not really what's being discussed.



I'm being sarcastic. Dealing with people with reading comprehension issues as a means to obscure a dozen solid points brings it out in me.
5% is your answer. It's about the same on most large forums. Most are lurkers, occasional, etc. This site has thousands daily.

2- no, it's not. Possible vs probable. 

So $1M is unreasonable/unrealistic. Fine.  How about something less lofty, say $10,000.   
That's 10 weddings at $1k each, spread out over 12 weeks. Doable, IF I push that market, which I'm not currently doing.  That's 5-10 websites, which is a market I'm pushing.  Which I will do btw, minimally.  
Even IF I only say shoot 1 more wedding, and only get 5 site jobs, that's still $6k more than I'd have sitting on my *** in a park with a bunch of irate confused people who think that my having $5 means theres $5 less for them.

My point, which was missed because of the reading comprehension issues previously noted, is that you need to work to get ahead. It's not the governments job to take care of you. It's your responsibility. 



> Regarding retail, I'll tell you what my opinion is.  Poor management.  Actually, I take that back.  No management.  That's the problem with many retail stores.  You can tell within seconds of walking into a retail store whether it is well managed or not.  It is reflected in everything from the tidyness of the store to the displays to the behavior and demeanor of the employees.
> 
> Well managed stores _develop_ good employees.  We've all been in McDonalds that have been well run and poorly run.  You know the difference.  Same product.  Same process.  Vastly different results.  It's not rocket science.  Good managers are invisible, quietly keeping things running smoothly.  Bad managers complain... but never about themselves.
> 
> If you're a retail manager and you're complaining about lazy employees, you have only yourself to blame.  You're hiring the wrong people.  Or more likely, you're failing to develop the right people.


This is why it's the teachers fault when students fail to show up for class, because they are poor teachers right?


----------



## Flying Crane

Bob Hubbard said:


> So $1M is unreasonable/unrealistic. Fine. How about something less lofty, say $10,000.



What you said was, "*a few *million by Christmas".  Not $1M.

The problem here is that you are very cavalierly throwing out numbers like this and pretending that it's just easy as pie to make money here in the good ole U.S of A., hell, the money just falls out of the sky if you hold your hands out and grab for it.

That attitude is total BS, when we are talking about people who are struggling to make ends meet.  

You made a BS statement.  I called BS.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Flying Crane said:


> What you said was, "*a few *million by Christmas".  Not $1M.
> 
> The problem here is that you are very cavalierly throwing out numbers like this and pretending that it's just easy as pie to make money here in the good ole U.S of A., hell, the money just falls out of the sky if you hold your hands out and grab for it.
> 
> That attitude is total BS, when we are talking about people who are struggling to make ends meet.
> 
> You made a BS statement.  I called BS.



Just because you, or I can not do it, does not make it impossible.

You are being an *** and intentionally skewing my meaning.

Again, for the reading impaired.

_I Never Said It Was Easy!_

I said it was possible.
I didn't say it was probable.
I said possible.

Do I need to start posting links to dictionary.com along with disclaimers?

[h=3]U.S. _millionaires_ population expanded by 8% in 2010 - Mar. 16, _2011_[/h]





> The number of U.S. households worth at least $1 million rose to 8.4  million in 2010, compared to 7.8 million the prior year, according to a  report by Spectrem Group.



2010 "marked the second consecutive year of increases, the group said, following a 16% surge in the millionaire population in 2009."

Now, "expand" means "grew". This means that there were more.
"millionaire" is defined as someone with an income and assets are more than one million dollars. (Noun:A person whose assets are worth one million dollars or more.)
8% is this many * * * * * * * *
2010 is last year. Not this year. But the year before this one.

Are we clear yet? Do I need to be more clear?

Google "companies expanding in 2011"
Read a bit.

[h=3]Meet the _New_ Young _Millionaires_ - AOL Small Business[/h][h=3]Number of _millionaires_ is projected to rise rapidly - May. 5, _2011_[/h]
But you're right.  It sucks out there. All these people out of work, struggling, hoping that someone will throw them a bone, because there's no chance the little guy can get ahead. No hope. No chance in hell for someone to start with nothing, and make it.  Nope.  So hard.
(That's more sarcasm, so I'm clear here, since it's been so confusing and all.)


Now if you'll excuse me, I have actual work that involves paying clients to deal with.

One last time though.
For the reading impaired.

_I Never Said It Was Easy!_


----------



## Flying Crane

Bob Hubbard said:


> You are being an *** and intentionally skewing my meaning.



no sir.  You are.


----------



## Makalakumu

It's interesting to read the texts and messages I'm getting from the people I met while out at the Occupy event.  If you go out and share your opinion and are respectful about it, it makes a difference, even if you disagree.


----------



## Steve

Bob Hubbard said:


> This is why it's the teachers fault when students fail to show up for class, because they are poor teachers right?


Very different.  Teachers don't have the power to hire or fire their students.  Teachers don't pay their students for their work.  While I do often use employment as a metaphor with my kids, the metaphor breaks down when it comes to expectations.  In the context of this discussion, I am much closer (though there are some key differences) to being my kids' manager, not their teacher. 

Some key mistakes that poor managers make.  1:  They don't set clear expectations.  2:  They don't hold the employees accountable.  3:  They don't document poor performance until AFTER they've decided an employee should be fired.  4:  They are afraid to make unpopular decisions.  5:  They are inconsistent and play favorites.  6:  They don't understand their role.  7:  They don't understand or can't distinguish between performance issues and conduct issues (ie, can't do vs won't do) and so they mismanage the situation.

There is a HUGE difference between a well run business and a well run classroom.  Biggest difference is that much of what happens in a business is within the managers DIRECT control.  Not so in a classroom.


----------



## Twin Fist

Empty Hands said:


> Where is my $500 million if that's how it's supposed to work?



do something worth 500 million and you will get it.

PS

your envy and jealousy are showing


----------



## Makalakumu

Twin Fist said:


> do something worth 500 million and you will get it.
> 
> PS
> 
> your envy and jealousy are showing



Oh, you mean like open a bank, fail, and get bailed out by the government?

This is not a Free Market or a Meritocracy.  We live in a crony corporatist state that masquerades as capitalist, but is more akin to a Mafia.  Serve it or defend it at your own peril.

That's what these protests are about.


----------



## Steve

Makalakumu said:


> Oh, you mean like open a bank, fail, and get bailed out by the government?
> 
> This is not a Free Market or a Meritocracy. We live in a crony corporatist state that masquerades as capitalist, but is more akin to a Mafia. Serve it or defend it at your own peril.
> 
> That's what these protests are about.


Do you think I could get the VA to help me get a business loan for my new bank?  I think, Makalakumu, you have stumbled upon a fool proof way to get rich.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Makalakumu said:


> It's interesting to read the texts and messages I'm getting from the people I met while out at the Occupy event.  If you go out and share your opinion and are respectful about it, it makes a difference, even if you disagree.



When'd you get to NYC?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

stevebjj said:


> Very different.  Teachers don't have the power to hire or fire their students.  Teachers don't pay their students for their work.  While I do often use employment as a metaphor with my kids, the metaphor breaks down when it comes to expectations.  In the context of this discussion, I am much closer (though there are some key differences) to being my kids' manager, not their teacher.
> 
> Some key mistakes that poor managers make.  1:  They don't set clear expectations.  2:  They don't hold the employees accountable.  3:  They don't document poor performance until AFTER they've decided an employee should be fired.  4:  They are afraid to make unpopular decisions.  5:  They are inconsistent and play favorites.  6:  They don't understand their role.  7:  They don't understand or can't distinguish between performance issues and conduct issues (ie, can't do vs won't do) and so they mismanage the situation.
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between a well run business and a well run classroom.  Biggest difference is that much of what happens in a business is within the managers DIRECT control.  Not so in a classroom.



And some people are just lazy slackers who do just enough to stay employed.
Some are 'union' which means it's hard to remove the biggest losers in the crew. (See how hard it is to fire a teacher for poor performance in NYC).
Some teachers DO pay students.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Flying Crane said:


> no sir.  You are.


I'm not the one with the reading comprehension problem.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Makalakumu said:


> Oh, you mean like open a bank, fail, and get bailed out by the government?
> 
> This is not a Free Market or a Meritocracy.  We live in a crony corporatist state that masquerades as capitalist, but is more akin to a Mafia.  Serve it or defend it at your own peril.
> 
> That's what these protests are about.



I didn't realize I was so limited in the US.
Where do I go to see what businesses I'm allowed to open?
Who is the "Don" I need to ring kiss to get permission?
When will I be executed for daring to think for my self?

Sorry, but if the country is as bad as you paint it, we'd all be in camps and most of us would have been shot years ago.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to put in my request to requisition a travel permit so that I can obtain gas for my car.  The line is only 4 hours long Tovarich, so I may be back tonight, unless I can't afford the signature tax on top of the breathing tax. /sarcasm.


----------



## Steve

Bob Hubbard said:


> And some people are just lazy slackers who do just enough to stay employed.
> Some are 'union' which means it's hard to remove the biggest losers in the crew. (See how hard it is to fire a teacher for poor performance in NYC).
> Some teachers DO pay students.


Bob. Come on. You're arguing just to argue. You made a sweeping statement regarding retail. I completely disagree and explained my position. Now you're talking about teachers, unions and paid students? Come on, Bob. 

While unions make it more difficult, the reason unions gain more power than they should is typically ineffective management. But most retailers are not unionized. You're throwing out a red herring grenade. 

In retail, the epidemic is poor management. Particularly in this economy, there is a large pool of potentially great employees out there. If you don't recognize them when you see them, and can't develop them when you have them, you deserve the lazy, entitled employees you have. 

Let me put it this way. I won't blame any manager for having poor employees today. But if, in 6 months, you have the SAME poor employees, you have some kind of problem with expectations and accountability. If, in 6 months, you have DIFFERENT poor employees, you have hiring issues and should examine your interviewing process or really think about your hiring criteria.   You are probably also failing to develop your employees.  

People are people, whether kids or adults.  Most of the common sense things we do as parents also work in management.  Setting clear expectations.  "Son, be back by 9pm."  "Bob, I need you to use the cover sheet on the TPS reports."

Hold them accountable.  "Son, you weren't home by 9pm.  Next time you ask to go out, I'm going to say no."  "Bob, I've asked you three times to use the cover sheet.  I'm going to document this conversation in your file, and consider this a direct order."

Understand the difference between can't do and won't do:  "Son, you came home at 10pm."  "Yeah.  Dad.  About that.  Take your 9pm and shove it up your ***."  (That's won't do  ) "Yeah, dad.  I know, and I'm sorry, but I get caught up at work.  I know I'm supposed to get off at 8:30, but the boss keeps asking me to stay late."  Or even, "Dad, I don't know how to tell time."   Those are both "can't do" situations...a little silly, admittedly.  

If you work with unions, I'll up that to 2 years. Even within the most oppressive bargaining environment, if management is competent, it wouldn't take more than 2 years to terminate an incompetent employee. In that list I wrote previously, in a union setting, numbers 3, 5 and 7 are the death knell of management and provide, often justified, grievances and ULPs filed by labor. 

I'll also add that even with an under performing crew, a good manager will make an immediate impact. Morale will improve, performance indicators will improve, and some "lazy" employees will turn out to be excellent ones. 

Bottom line is that I disagree completely with the validity of your claim that "lazy employees" are the biggest problem in retail now. I believe that the only managers who would say this are ones who should be replaced.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

> Bob.  Come on.  You're arguing just to argue.  You made a sweeping  statement regarding retail.  I completely disagree and explained my  position.  Now you're talking about teachers, unions and paid students?   Come on, Bob.



I can't. Gotta wait in this line for my permit to request a requisition form to walk down the street. 



> While unions make it more difficult, the reason unions gain more power  than they should is typically ineffective management.  But most  retailers are not unionized.  You're throwing out a red herring grenade.



That's a fishy statement.



> In retail, the epidemic is poor management.  Particularly in this  economy, there is a large pool of potentially great employees out there.   If you don't recognize them when you see them, and can't develop them  when you have them, you deserve the lazy, entitled employees you have.



Agree/Disagree. Poor management and poor employees. Rest, yes.


> Let me put it this way.  I won't blame any manager for having poor  employees today.  But if, in 6 months, you have the SAME poor employees,  you have some kind of problem with expectations and accountability.   If, in 6 months, you have DIFFERENT poor employees, you have hiring  issues and should examine your interviewing process or really think  about your hiring criteria.



Agree



> If you work with unions, I'll up that to 2 years.  Even within the most  oppressive bargaining environment, if management is competent, it  wouldn't take more than 2 years to terminate an incompetent employee.   In that list I wrote previously, in a union setting, numbers 3, 5 and 7  are the death knell of management and provide, often justified,  grievances and ULPs filed by labor.



My opinion on unions is quite negative. What I've heard from those who deal with them, disputes your finding.



> I'll also add that even with an under performing crew, a good manager  will make an immediate impact.  Morale will improve, performance  indicators will improve, and some "lazy" employees will turn out to be  excellent ones.



Agree



> Bottom line is that I disagree completely with the validity of your  claim that "lazy employees" are the biggest problem in retail now.  I  believe that the only managers who would say this are ones who should be  replaced.


I did not say "biggest problem". I said it's hard (not impossible, just hard) to remove the "biggest losers".


----------



## Steve

Okay. I'll just agree to disagree. Where employees are involved, I believe that no one wakes up in the morning and says to themselves, "Today, I'm going to be the suckiest, lousiest, laziest employee ever." And if they do, they can be dealt with.

Same goes for managers.

Let me try this from a different direction. Bob, if you care to know, my personal opinion is that the biggest problem we face in any industry right now is a leadership vacuum.  It's not poor employees.  It's leadership being promoted too soon and mentors retiring before they can pass on their tacit knowledge and experience.


----------



## Flying Crane

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm not the one with the reading comprehension problem.



that's OK Bob.  You tell yourself whatever lie you need to, to get thru this difficult moment.


----------



## Empty Hands

Twin Fist said:


> do something worth 500 million and you will get it.
> 
> PS
> 
> *your envy and jealousy are showing*



You missed the point, yet again.  FWIW, I passed on a job with a very high, guaranteed income to go into science because the guaranteed job would have made me miserable.  How can I be envious when I'm the one to choose to give it up?  I was countering Bob's point with the observation that many people work very hard.  Working hard doesn't guarantee a thing.


----------



## Makalakumu

Bob Hubbard said:


> I didn't realize I was so limited in the US.
> Where do I go to see what businesses I'm allowed to open?
> Who is the "Don" I need to ring kiss to get permission?
> When will I be executed for daring to think for my self?
> 
> Sorry, but if the country is as bad as you paint it, we'd all be in camps and most of us would have been shot years ago.
> 
> Now if you'll excuse me, I have to put in my request to requisition a travel permit so that I can obtain gas for my car.  The line is only 4 hours long Tovarich, so I may be back tonight, unless I can't afford the signature tax on top of the breathing tax. /sarcasm.


 
Apparently you haven't tried open any lemonade stands lately. Whose ring do you kiss to do that?

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Makalakumu

Bob Hubbard said:


> When'd you get to NYC?


 
I didn't. It's a smaller, local, Occupy event. Going to NYC would be awesome, though!

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Flying Crane said:


> that's OK Bob.  You tell yourself whatever lie you need to, to get thru this difficult moment.


What difficult moment is that?
Dude, seriously, I run 2 businesses. They are doing fine.
I own the best car I've ever owned (Prius). My wife owns the best she's ever had (Highlander).
My pantry and fridge are full. My quality of life has -never- been higher in 41 years.
My debt is minimal, well under control and being regularly reduced. (should be debt free in 1-2 years, unless we buy a house)
So, no, I'm afraid my life isn't having a 'difficult moment'.
Sorry.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Makalakumu said:


> I didn't. It's a smaller, local, Occupy event. Going to NYC would be awesome, though!
> 
> Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk



It's not the same thing then.  My ire isn't directed at the 'lite' versions, just the originals.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Makalakumu said:


> Apparently you haven't tried open any lemonade stands lately. Whose ring do you kiss to do that?
> 
> Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk



In most of the US, no ones if you're a kid.
In most of the US, if you're an adult, you need a tax ID, some health dept inspections and a DBA and you're good to go.
Most businesses, at most you'll need a tax ID and a DBA.

In WNY, that's like under $50 and obtainable in under 24 hrs most days. (I had my tax ID within minutes online)

Like I said, it's hard. Real hard.


----------



## Twin Fist

it like the old saying "practice makes perfect"

its horse ****

practice wrong and it doesnt matter how hard you practice, it will still look like crap

PERFECT practice makes perfect

it doesnt matter how hard you work if you are doing it in an area that wont pay well

DUH

anyone that wants to succeed, and is willing to put in the time and effort CAN achieve success.

I am doing it.

being a nurse is no small shakes, and i got here through hard work

after i graduate, i will make a damned good living, and never be out of work

working hard and working SMART is as close to a guarantee as there is in this world




Empty Hands said:


> You missed the point, yet again.  FWIW, I passed on a job with a very high, guaranteed income to go into science because the guaranteed job would have made me miserable.  How can I be envious when I'm the one to choose to give it up?  I was countering Bob's point with the observation that many people work very hard.  Working hard doesn't guarantee a thing.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Are there a lot of good people having a hard time of it though no fault of their own?

Yes.

But the difference between the winners and the whiners is a simple one.

The winner keeps fighting, keeps searching, keeps digging, keeps running, keeps getting up.

The whiner keeps quiting, keeps making excuses, keeps stopping, keeps complaining.

I could list my challenges. A couple weeks ago I almost died.  Spent the night in the ER, my blood pressure 250/185 and higher, it didn't want to come down.  (TF-John, how bad is that number?) A local disgruntled photographer who is going above and beyond to defame me and damage my business, some issues on the family side that are quite concerning (relatives health concerns of the bad kind). Etc.

It's easy to quit, it's easy to make excuses.  Nah.  I'm where I'm at because I made decisions, some of them the wrong ones, some the right ones, that have put me right where I'm at. I deal with it. I work on it. As long as I'm alive, I've got a chance.

And no excuse riddled, math-poor, economics-blind protester is going to dissuade me that hard work, perseverance, smart decisions, and a willingness to take some gambles isn't better than walking about waving a sign protesting something vague and confused in a park.

This site exists, Kenpotalk exists, my hosting company existed, my photography business exists, despite countless people telling me they can't work, the deck is stacked against me, that I can't win, that "they" won't let me.

I make a living -doing- the very things that so many people tell me won't work.

So, please, make your signs, sip your tea or coffee or rally against people with money, I don't really care.
But never say you represent me.
And never tell me it can't be done.
I already did it.


----------



## billc

Correct me if I'm wrong Bob, did you say it was easy?:bangahead:


----------



## Makalakumu

This thread is officially the Twilight Zone. Conservatives are defending government regulation and wasteful spending!

This is how nationalism skews reason.  Principles don't matter as long as we're waving the flag!

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## Twin Fist

Bob Hubbard said:


> my blood pressure 250/185 and higher, it didn't want to come down.  (TF-John, how bad is that number?)



thats just this side of your heart actually exploding in your chest. Thats as high as i have ever seen.


----------



## Omar B

I couldnt zgree with you more Bob.  I had a pan, in fact I had several overlapping 5 year plans.  I owned my own 3 bedroom house in NY y the time I was 20 waiting tables with the occasional freelance writing gig and studio session thrown in.  I did not earn much money but I lived frugally and supported myself, my ex finacee and sister quite well.  Now I have 2 homes (including my condo in Fort Lauderdale), it's not like I'm rich or anything, just keeping an eye on my spending and aways working.

Hard to get a job?  How about being Indian in NY after 9/11 with a very Indian last name like my own.  I couldn't get a job for crap!  People just assume, dark skin, eastern name, must be a terrorist.  Yet I kept at it for more than a year while waiting and busing tables and caddying at a country club, working 3 jobs, every day of the week.  All this on a college degree.  Work is out there, people don't wanna do it because of pride because of their big degrees.  It's as if they are not given a CEO job out of high school or if they see it as beneath them then there are no jobs.


----------



## billc

I hope you are feeling and doing better Bob.


----------



## elder999

Omar B said:


> I'm gonna disagree with you here man. Your statement seems to assert that because he's white it may not be Brooklyn. As if the NY population is neatly segregated. It could be anywhere in the city. Oh, and most of the people I know from Brooklyn are white, ike my bud Sal who owns a pizza place in Bed Stuy.



I bet Sal doesn't _live_ in Bed-Stuy.

No worries, though. I just think that if the dude is a _homeless_ dude, the likelihood of his actually being in Bed-Stuy is diminished. 

I think it's a homeless dude. THere's a crowd in the background, but they seem to be confined to the sidewalk. It's hard to tell anyhthing else, but I'm betting this is from that photograpber's archive, and it's in Brooklyn-or a homeless dude who had nothing to do with the demonstraters.

You may now resume the polarization process towards ultimate corporate take over....


----------



## Big Don

How would one tell one of the unwashed protesters from a homeless guy?
IMHO, a homeless guy, isn't nearly as likely to do something as intentionally provocative to a police car, no matter where it is located.


----------



## elder999

Big Don said:


> How would one tell one of the unwashed protesters from a homeless guy?


:lol:




Big Don said:


> IMHO, a homeless guy, isn't nearly as likely to do something as intentionally provocative to a police car, no matter where it is located.



Maybe. 

The truck in the background, though, is for Walter P. Sauer Furniture, also, coincidentally, in Brooklyn.....???

Still might be downtown Manhattan.....


----------



## Big Don

True story


----------



## Bob Hubbard

*Art Crime: Naked Artists Occupy Wall Street in Ocularpation *


----------



## Carol

Bob Hubbard said:


> *Art Crime: Naked Artists Occupy Wall Street in Ocularpation *



#shrinkage


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Interesting read



> *Why No Demands - Occupy Wall Street is a Rebellion, Not a Protest ...*newamericamedia.org/.../labor-stands-up-the-role-of-unions-on-the-n...
> 13 hours ago - Rebellions don't have _demands_. As we wrote in the editorial that appeared in the second edition of The _Occupied Wall Street_ Journal on Saturday: &#8220;We are *...*.



"It is not a protest. It&#8217;s an occupation. Rebellions don&#8217;t have demands. "


I reference the US Constitution, specifically Article 3, Section 3:


> *Section 3 - Treason*
> 
> Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
> 
> The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.



Article 1, Section 9 


> "The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."



Congress has the power to "suppress Insurrections".

Also those involved risk the revocation of their citizenship, and a ban on public office as a result.

The US Constitution. I wonder how many of these hired protester have read that document. It's a long read, 19 pages. Could take some of them months I suspect, if their math skills are any indication of their reading skills.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Carol said:


> #shrinkage



So, like the local asswipe I'm dealing with, pictures of naked OWS protesters will also be captioned "where the **** is his penis?!"
:rofl:


----------



## elder999

Carol said:


> #shrinkage



[yt]1cUNNKzj_Nc[/yt]

[yt]BEnKLhi83J8[/yt]

:lfao:


----------



## David43515

Makalakumu said:


> This thread is officially the Twilight Zone. Conservatives are defending government regulation and wasteful spending!
> 
> Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk



Where in the world are you seeing _that_???? The conservatives on here have been saying that too much govt control and wasteful spending got us into this and _aren`t_ going to get us out. How did you miss that point? Is it just that we have very different ideas of what actually constitutes wasteful spending? (Before you seemed to be in favor of drastically cutting the defense budget, so that could be the case if you consider that wasteful. Most of us don`t)


----------



## Big Don

David43515 said:


> Where in the world are you seeing _that_????


I suspect rectal cranial inversion


----------



## David43515

"It is not a protest. It&#8217;s an occupation. Rebellions don&#8217;t have demands. "

Am I the only one who immediately thought of Gilda Radner`s long running gag on the old SNL? They`d play members of a latino street gang and whenever anyone called them a gang she`d say "It`s not a gang. It`s a club."

Anybody?  .......No?....*sigh* (man, I feel old.)


----------



## Big Don

elder999 said:


> [yt]1cUNNKzj_Nc[/yt]
> 
> [yt]BEnKLhi83J8[/yt]
> 
> :lfao:


The BEST part of that is that Elaine had NO idea about shrinkage


----------



## David43515

"It is not a protest. Its an occupation. Rebellions dont have demands. "

Am I the only one who immediately thought of Gilda Radner`s long running gag on the old SNL? They`d play members of a latino street gang and whenever anyone called them a gang she`d say "It`s not a gang. It`s a club."

Anybody? .......No?....*sigh* (man, I feel old.)


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Here's some real solution options, taken in part from the Pizza Party's 2012 platform (being discussed now):

1 - Eliminate the complex income tax system entirely for individuals. 
Doing this will remove all the 'loop holes', 'tax credits' and 'unfair advantages' across the board.

2 - Institute a Federal Sales Tax rate of 20%.
The following would be exempt:
- services.
- raw food
- medicine
- baby care, including clothing, diapers, formula and food.
- Necessary utilities. These would be gas, electric, water, heat oil, propane, land line telephones.
Revenues under this system would be 5% greater than under the existing system, serve the purpose of putting extra money in every American's paychecks, allow "the poor" more immediate cash while safeguarding necessities remain affordable. It also puts more of a tax burden on those who spend the most on luxury items such as high end cars or giant tvs.

3 - Eliminate all "death taxes" allowing Americans to pass on their wealth to family.
The current system is abused, and serves to limit lower income American's abilities to pass on the fruits of their labors to their children. While the system as is is well intended, it is broken and needs to be eliminated.

4 - Create a Federal Hospital System to work as a national base-care system to provide low and no cost base and emergency care to all citizens.
This is not a replacement for the current system, but a complete overhaul.
Existing private insurance would be able to continue, however it would restructure to provide more high-end care.
The FHS would be staffed by doctors, nurses and technicians who work a standard 40 hour week at a fair wage for 10 years, in return for free school and training, and a salary while they train. After their time-in is served, they are free to stay or go into private practice.

5 - Social Security restructuring.
Money paid into the system would remain in the system, put in escrow for the future. No more dipping into it allowed. Past IOU's are to be paid back into the system, with reasonable interest.  This would result in the current system becoming quite solvent.  

6 - Border Security
The Southern Border would be immediately strengthened, with additional agents deployed to combat intrusion. They would be augmented by active duty military and National Guard units as needed, with unmanned drones patrolling much of the border.  Hostiles will be met with overwhelming force. Civilians will be given all reasonable humanitarian aid, and returned speedily to their respective embassies. 

7 - Revamp Education
To create the future, one must dream. We must encourage people to dream again, while balancing that with the tools to live. People must be allowed to be creative, and trained in entrepreneurial concepts.

8 - Make Medical Care Affordable
#4 covers some of the problem, but not all.  
- Hospitals must be audited to ensure that billing is accurate. Errors in billing cost Americans Billions of dollars in over payments each year.
- Medicaid and Medicare must be revamped. There is an estimated 60% fraud in the system, stealing aid from both the tax payers and Americans who need the help the most.  Fraud must be punished, freeing funding to go where it is most needed.
- Drug companies enjoy a monopoly on drugs for years, and can extend that by making miner tweaks. This loophole must be closed, and generics allowed on the market.  

9 - The redefinition of Corporations as people should be reversed.

10 - Return the election of Senators to the States and re balance the power in the Federal Government

11 - The Lobbyist system needs to be rethought. Campaign contributions from lobby groups should be eliminated, the ability of a government servent to become a lobbyist and vice versa should also be restricted, with no GS allowed to become a lobbyist for at least 1 year after leaving office. This "No Conflict Clause" is similar to Non-Compete Clauses in use in business today.

12 - The Federal Budget should be gone through line by line with serious attention to fat, and trimmed back to reasonable levels.


----------



## Flying Crane

Bob Hubbard said:


> What difficult moment is that?



The moment where you made a BS statement here and I called your BS.

It has nothing to do with your life.


----------



## Sukerkin

1 Vote for Post#193 ... but of course I am not eligible being over on this side of the Pond .  I like what I read there, Senator Hubbard, some of which I have referenced myself in the past as being things that would be beneficial.

One adaptation you might want to consider is on the Health Care side of things.  A major problem that I hear about in the American insurance funded health care system is that it promotes an approach where emergency care and treatment for conditions once they manifest can be very good.  But preventative and palliative medicine is very poor, leading to eventually higher medical expense than if there were an American version of the NHS in existence to deal with such patients.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Sukerkin said:


> 1 Vote for Post#193 ... but of course I am not eligible being over on this side of the Pond .  I like what I read there, Senator Hubbard, some of which I have referenced myself in the past as being things that would be beneficial.
> 
> One adaptation you might want to consider is on the Health Care side of things.  A major problem that I hear about in the American insurance funded health care system is that it promotes an approach where emergency care and treatment for conditions once they manifest can be very good.  But preventative and palliative medicine is very poor, leading to eventually higher medical expense than if there were an American version of the NHS in existence to deal with such patients.



The system which Arni and I banged out a while back allows for such things.  It covers routine basic and preventative care, at low to no out of pocket to citizens, while allowing those who want more to pay for more.  There are reasons the guys my VP running mate.   I've run this idea by a number of doctors and they like it.  Of course, most are still after years in practice paying down massive school loans so the idea of paid training and a regular check appeals to them. lol


----------



## Steve

Bob Hubbard said:


> Here's some real solution options, taken in part from the Pizza Party's 2012 platform (being discussed now):
> 
> 1 - Eliminate the complex income tax system entirely for individuals.
> Doing this will remove all the 'loop holes', 'tax credits' and 'unfair advantages' across the board.


Agreed! 





> 2 - Institute a Federal Sales Tax rate of 20%.
> The following would be exempt:
> - services.
> - raw food
> - medicine
> - baby care, including clothing, diapers, formula and food.
> - Necessary utilities. These would be gas, electric, water, heat oil, propane, land line telephones.
> Revenues under this system would be 5% greater than under the existing system, serve the purpose of putting extra money in every American's paychecks, allow "the poor" more immediate cash while safeguarding necessities remain affordable. It also puts more of a tax burden on those who spend the most on luxury items such as high end cars or giant tvs.


As I said before, I'm in favor of an income tax over a consumption/sales tax.  I mentioned the main reason in another thread.  Essentially, tying taxes to consumption creates a dependence on spending.  The times when we need programs the most will become exactly the same times when tax dollars are at their lowest.  We set up a boom/bust cycle that will be difficult to weather.  Just about every State with a sales tax and no income tax now is experiencing this shortfall of government monies. 





> 3 - Eliminate all "death taxes" allowing Americans to pass on their wealth to family.
> The current system is abused, and serves to limit lower income American's abilities to pass on the fruits of their labors to their children. While the system as is is well intended, it is broken and needs to be eliminated.


This is simple propaganda.  Whether you call it an Estate tax or a Death tax, this tax in no way limits lower income American's.  At all.  In fact, this is probably the one tax we have left that only affects wealthy people.   Not even wealthy people.  The WEALTHIEST of the wealthy.  I encourage everyone to read this document regarding the Estate Tax.  It's very understandable and debunks the entire campaign of misinformation regarding "death" tax.  Even calling it a death tax is disingenuous.  While we all die, only a handful of us will have sizable estates to pass on to our kids that are large enough to qualify for an estate tax.  I take that back.  NO ONE on these boards will qualify... well, maybe Elder999 .  





> 4 - Create a Federal Hospital System to work as a national base-care system to provide low and no cost base and emergency care to all citizens.
> This is not a replacement for the current system, but a complete overhaul.
> Existing private insurance would be able to continue, however it would restructure to provide more high-end care.
> The FHS would be staffed by doctors, nurses and technicians who work a standard 40 hour week at a fair wage for 10 years, in return for free school and training, and a salary while they train. After their time-in is served, they are free to stay or go into private practice.


This is a very interesting idea.  I'm going to have to think about this one for a while.  It borders on brilliant, but I wonder at how private insurance would be restructured, and I'm skeptical when I see vague references to "high end care."  First thing that came to mind is the Stephen Kind novella, Running Man. 


> 5 - Social Security restructuring.
> Money paid into the system would remain in the system, put in escrow for the future. No more dipping into it allowed. Past IOU's are to be paid back into the system, with reasonable interest.  This would result in the current system becoming quite solvent.


I'm all for this, but I'd also recommend eliminating the earnings cap on FICA, taxing ALL income rather than just the first 100k or so.  I'd also eliminate the maximum annual benefit, and add an additional tier to the payment computation.  Doing this alone would eliminate any solvency issues.  


> 6 - Border Security
> The Southern Border would be immediately strengthened, with additional agents deployed to combat intrusion. They would be augmented by active duty military and National Guard units as needed, with unmanned drones patrolling much of the border.  Hostiles will be met with overwhelming force. Civilians will be given all reasonable humanitarian aid, and returned speedily to their respective embassies.


Something needs to be done along the Mexican border.  





> 7 - Revamp Education
> To create the future, one must dream. We must encourage people to dream again, while balancing that with the tools to live. People must be allowed to be creative, and trained in entrepreneurial concepts.


Revamp is too strong.  While there are things that can be done, we have working models of public education throughout our country. We need to fix what needs to be fixed, but to pretend that the entire system is broken is alarmist, IMO.  My kids are thriving in public schools, as I believe most do.  Can we do better?  Of course.  But change doesn't have to be radical to be effective. 





> 8 - Make Medical Care Affordable
> #4 covers some of the problem, but not all.
> - Hospitals must be audited to ensure that billing is accurate. Errors in billing cost Americans Billions of dollars in over payments each year.
> - Medicaid and Medicare must be revamped. There is an estimated 60% fraud in the system, stealing aid from both the tax payers and Americans who need the help the most.  Fraud must be punished, freeing funding to go where it is most needed.
> - Drug companies enjoy a monopoly on drugs for years, and can extend that by making miner tweaks. This loophole must be closed, and generics allowed on the market.


I agree with this, but I want to point out that most of the fraud is within the system, NOT by the recipients.  There are fraudulent patients, but the real crime is being done by medical professionals. 





> 9 - The redefinition of Corporations as people should be reversed.


AMEN!





> 10 - Return the election of Senators to the States and re balance the power in the Federal Government


Not sure what this means.





> 11 - The Lobbyist system needs to be rethought. Campaign contributions from lobby groups should be eliminated, the ability of a government servent to become a lobbyist and vice versa should also be restricted, with no GS allowed to become a lobbyist for at least 1 year after leaving office. This "No Conflict Clause" is similar to Non-Compete Clauses in use in business today.


And super pacs should require mandatory disclosure of donors and etc and so on.  Absolutely.   Someone just yesterday... can't remember who... suggested that politicians be made to wear jackets that are covered in patches announcing endorsements, so that you know who's paying them.   Like NASCAR. 


> 12 - The Federal Budget should be gone through line by line with serious attention to fat, and trimmed back to reasonable levels.


Good luck with this.  I agree in theory, but there are so many hands in the pot, there's little incentive to change.


----------



## Big Don

Bob Hubbard said:


> 5 - Social Security restructuring.
> Money paid into the system would remain in the system, put in escrow for the future. No more dipping into it allowed. Past IOU's are to be paid back into the system, with reasonable interest.  This would result in the current system becoming quite solvent.


Allow those who wish to to opt out of social security, with the understanding that monies already paid in will not be repaid and there is NO way to reverse the opting out.


----------



## Big Don

Bob Hubbard said:


> 4 - Create a Federal Hospital System to work as a national base-care system to provide low and no cost base and emergency care to all citizens.
> This is not a replacement for the current system, but a complete overhaul.
> Existing private insurance would be able to continue, however it would restructure to provide more high-end care.
> The FHS would be staffed by doctors, nurses and technicians who work a standard 40 hour week at a fair wage for 10 years, in return for free school and training, and a salary while they train. After their time-in is served, they are free to stay or go into private practice.


 Oh HELL NO. The federal government cannot deliver the friggin mail without losing BILLIONS of dollars, they need to stay the F out of medicine.





> 6 - Border Security
> The Southern Border would be immediately strengthened, with additional agents deployed to combat intrusion. They would be augmented by active duty military and National Guard units as needed, with unmanned drones patrolling much of the border.  Hostiles will be met with overwhelming force. Civilians will be given all reasonable humanitarian aid, and returned speedily to their respective embassies.


Change that to all borders and ports...





> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 12 - The Federal Budget should be gone through line by line with serious attention to fat, and trimmed back to reasonable levels.


hahahaha, oh, you were serious?


----------



## Steve

Big Don said:


> Allow those who wish to to opt out of social security, with the understanding that monies already paid in will not be repaid and there is NO way to reverse the opting out.


Nope. While it's really fun to get tough and hardnosed, say things like, "Well, if they don't save, that's their choice."  It's really not.  If people aren't compelled to contribute to their retirement, many... too many, will retire on our dime, not theirs. If it's not compulsory, it's called welfare. Just look at how many people can choose to contribute to a 401k but don't. 

Prior to Social Security, the poverty rate for senior citizens was over 75%.  Now, it's under 10%.  You can argue that Social Security isn't constitutional.  You can debate the best ways to address long term solvency.  But there are some facts that are indisputable.  One is that Social Security has been an overwhelming success.  And this success is almost entirely because participation for over 98% of Americans is compulsory.  As Twin Fist is fond of saying, facts is facts.  And it is a fact that Social Security has had a profoundly positive impact on senior poverty in our country.


----------



## billc

Here is some more bad behavior.

http://bigjournalism.com/wthuston/2...ood-bank-event-conservatives-offset-the-loss/



> The Greater Boston Food Bank intended to hold a fundraising event in Boston&#8217;s Dewey Square over the weekend of the 14th of October. It was to be called the &#8220;Greenway Mobile Food Fest&#8221; and designed to fundraise for those in need, but due to the tantrums being thrown by the Occupy Boston protestors *the event had to be canceled*. Despite the selfishness of these pointless, clueless protesters, though, conservative bloggers stepped in and raised over $3,000 for the food bank. So where is the media on this story? Isn&#8217;t this a perfect sort of human-interest story that media types usually love?
> The media should love this. It&#8217;s got clueless, uninformed, cretins hurting an organization that helps feed the needy. It has a more caring group rising to the challenge to help replace those lost donations. Perfect story, right?



Also, Sean Hannity on his show, yesterday, spoke to a woman who owns a sandwich shop on Wall street.  The protesters have run her customers away, have abused her for the nerve of not allowing them to freely use her bathroom and have caused her no end of trouble.

I actually have to thank these protesters though.  The bad press received by the tea party is now shown for what it was, a hit job by the anti-tea party media.  The actions of these protesters have served to highlight how pleasant the Tea Party gatherings actually were, and how unpleasant the democrat supported protesters are.


----------



## Makalakumu

Occupy Wall Street is not a Democrat front group.  On the ground, there are all kinds of different people who believe all kinds of different things about politics.  The media is helping to co-opt this movement by classifying it as Left so that the other half of the country would turn on it.  They did the same to the Tea Party.  How many times does this have to happen before you realize that the media is all-in on this rigged Left/Right game and is merely a propaganda tool for the government/corporations?


----------



## billc

Well, Al Gore didn't support the tea party, and  Jan Shakowski, a local hard left democrat, didn't support the Tea party, and they have both embraced the OWS protesters, so what am I supposed to think about that?

Nancy Pelosi supports them as well...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pelosi-supports-occupy-wall-street-movement/story?id=14696893


----------



## billc

The cost of protesters complaining and then free loading...

http://michellemalkin.com/



> In *New York City*, government officials estimate the month-long siege of Zuccotti Park has now imposed *$3.2 million in overtime* police costs on the public. On Thursday, as Mayor Michael Bloomberg&#8217;s office pressured left-wing activists to vacate the park for cleaning, Occupy Wall Street urged sympathizers to flood the city&#8217;s customer services lines: *&#8220;Call 311 and tell Bloomberg not to evict us!&#8221;*
> In *Philadelphia*, Mayor Michael Nutter told the press that demonstrators outside city hall have incurred *$164,000 in overtime public employee costs and $237,000 in regular time*. &#8220;At the current rate, if Occupy Philly continues to the end of the month, the city would spend another nearly *$690,000 on police overtime alone*,&#8221; the local NBC affiliate reported. &#8220;Besides the extra police presence being dedicated to the Occupy Philly protests, other city departments have also incurred costs.&#8221;
> In *Seattle*, police have so far billed *$30,000 in overtime* and the *parks department racked up nearly $4,000* in additional costs related to the protests there. Occupiers have blocked traffic, assaulted an officer, and pitched illegal tents. Merchants in the area have been hurt as the riff-raff deter customers. One business owner in Westlake Park, where hundreds of protesters remain camped out, told Seattle TV station KIRO: &#8220;There&#8217;s definitely fewer people you can identify as people out, just walking through the area.&#8221;


----------



## Makalakumu

billcihak said:


> Well, Al Gore didn't support the tea party, and  Jan Shakowski, a local hard left democrat, didn't support the Tea party, and they have both embraced the OWS protesters, so what am I supposed to think about that?
> 
> Nancy Pelosi supports them as well...
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pelosi-supports-occupy-wall-street-movement/story?id=14696893


 
What are you supposed to think?

Now that's an interesting question.

Perhaps these movements start as grass roots and are turned into astroturf by the political establishment. It's how they get taken over and neutralized.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## RandomPhantom700

Well, this now makes three of my favorite webcomics that I've linked in response to a MT.com thread. Seriously, I'm starting to wonder if the authors follow these forums. :rofl: Anyway, no, I haven't checked the links yet, but I figured I would share the page here. The following link is a response a webcomic author wrote, which lists a handful of links to sites discussing the OWS movement, one even comparing (or contrasting them, rather) to the Tea Partiers.  

http://forums.leasticoulddo.com/index.php?showtopic=34391

Now all I need is for LFG-comic.com to come up with a relevant page and I"ll have my comic links collection complete! :lol:


----------



## Bill Mattocks

I don't want to hear the OWS people say they are non-violent any more.  Not one word.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/15/us-protests-idUSTRE79E0FC20111015


> By Philip Pullella
> 
> ROME | Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:49pm EDT
> 
> (Reuters) - Anti-greed protesters rallied globally on Saturday, denouncing bankers and politicians over the international economic crisis, with violence rocking Rome where cars were torched and bank windows smashed.
> 
> While most rallies were relatively small and barely held up traffic, the Rome event drew tens of thousands of people and snaked through the city center for miles (kilometres).
> 
> Hundreds of hooded, masked demonstrators rampaged in some of the worst violence seen in the Italian capital in years, setting cars ablaze, breaking bank and shop windows and destroying traffic lights and signposts.
> 
> Police fired volleys of tear gas and used water cannon to try to disperse militant protesters who were hurling rocks, bottles and fireworks, but clashes went on into the evening.
> 
> Smoke bombs set off by protesters cast a pall over a sea of red flags and banners bearing slogans denouncing economic policies the protesters say are hurting the poor.
> 
> The violence sent many peaceful demonstrators and local residents near the Colosseum and St John's Basilica running into hotels and churches for safety.



And who is it marching 'in solidarity' with the OWS terrorists?  Communists and trade-unionists.  Yeah,  I don't want to hear that they're not commies anymore, either.


----------



## Sukerkin

Oh noes, not Commies ... Bill, I confess I am surprised as I thought you were a more intelligent man than that.  I guess on some issues there really is no way of overcoming your early programming if you get too far down the scale of years, for I too am guilty of such 'reflexive' thinking at times.

Chalk that one up to the 'Disappointed' side of the score board, for behind the media blather there is a serious point that the present way of 'doing business' is not sustainable in the long run, unless we really want to adopt a higher 'tech version of Barons and Peasants.

I would hope that this could turn into an international movement with some properly defined aims but, at present, it is just a bunch of dissatisfied people who are "Mad as hell" creating a bit of noise that is being used as cover by others, meaner and more organised, to get some licks in while they can.  I'll be surprised if it has any long term 'legs' but you never know with these things; after all the New Model Army wasn't perceived as anything 'game changing' to start with ... until Naseby :lol:.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Sukerkin said:


> Oh noes, not Commies ... Bill, I confess I am surprised as I thought you were a more intelligent man than that.  I guess on some issues there really is no way of overcoming your early programming if you get too far down the scale of years, for I too am guilty of such 'reflexive' thinking at times.
> 
> Chalk that one up to the 'Disappointed' side of the score board, for behind the media blather there is a serious point that the present way of 'doing business' is not sustainable in the long run, unless we really want to adopt a higher 'tech version of Barons and Peasants.
> 
> I would hope that this could turn into an international movement with some properly defined aims but, at present, it is just a bunch of dissatisfied people who are "Mad as hell" creating a bit of noise that is being used as cover by others, meaner and more organised, to get some licks in while they can.  I'll be surprised if it has any long term 'legs' but you never know with these things; after all the New Model Army wasn't perceived as anything 'game changing' to start with ... until Naseby :lol:.



http://news.businessweek.com/article.asp?documentKey=1376-LT1FUB1A1I4H01-651LPL78U92IIQPBTGS7SRLBFP

Wall Street Protests Spread Globally as Rome Turns Violent



> Oct. 15 (Bloomberg) -- The Occupy Wall Street protest against income disparity spread across Western Europe, Asia, the U.S. and Canada today. Rome's demonstration turned violent, contrasting with peaceful events elsewhere.
> 
> As many as 500 marchers in Rome wielding clubs attacked police, two banks and a supermarket, Sky TG24 reported. Authorities used tear gas and water cannon. Londoners were barred from Paternoster Square, home of the London Stock Exchange, and Tokyo protesters demanded an end to nuclear power. New York police arrested 24 at a Citigroup Inc. bank branch and 6,000 gathered in Times Square.
> ...
> Levin Jiang, 22, an English major at Taipei's Fu Jen Catholic University, joined others *singing the communist anthem L'Internationale* in front of a Hermes watch shop.
> 
> &#8220;I'm angry about the unjust capitalist society,&#8221; he said. *&#8220;I'm anti-capitalism.&#8221;*
> ...
> &#8220;Hong Kong is heaven for capitalists,&#8221; said Lee Chun Wing, 29, a community college social sciences lecturer in Hong Kong. &#8220;*Wealth is created by workers and so should be shared with the workers as well. Capitalism is not a just system*.&#8221;



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/10/15/occupy-canada-saturday.html



> Hundreds marched through the Bosnian city of Sarajevo carrying *pictures of Che Guevara and old communist flags* that read *"Death to capitalism, freedom to the people."*



You were saying?


----------



## Sukerkin

Oh noes (twice in two posts!), my point is utterly destroyedz by some numpties who are clearly about to overthrow the current world order.  

Bill, it's me you're talking to, not some political or economic illiterate.  

I find it hard to be serious when positions are so ephemerally founded so I'm walking away until another day before my fingers get out of control.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

*NYC*
*
Protester Shoots Cop "A Look," Cop Punches Him In Face (Video)*
             A white-shirted NYPD supervisor was caught on video  punching a protester in the face Friday without apparent cause. Well,  the protester did admit shooting him a look. Whatever that look was, it  prompted Deputy Inspector Johnny Cardona to grab him by his shoulders,  spin him around and punch him hard in the face. Felix Rivera-Pitre, the  protester, said the officer ended up ripping his [...]


                                                                           yesterday


*The World Continues To Watch As Protesters Get Braver Against NYPD*

                                  The escalation between NYPD officers and Occupy Wall  Street protesters is perfectly captured in the above Associated Press  photo. I came across it in a UK Daily Mail article, which has done a  better job of summarizing the madness than most American newspapers. All  I know about the photo is what it written in the cutline. Fight: A man  affiliated with the Occupy Wall Street protests tackles a  [...]





In Buffalo, a couple dozen folks stood around and froze their asses off today. 
In Hawaii I hear they held a poetry reading and shared poi recipes.
In NYC the 'non-violent' protesters have started tackling cops, and the 'law enforcement' folks have started arbitrarily laying the smack down on people.
Seriously, send in a couple of Droideka's to NYC and clear them all out already. Both sides are proving the other right.


----------



## Big Don

No, these idiots are NOT the same as the tea parties.
Sorry, you didn't see this at a tea party rally:


----------



## Big Don

Sukerkin said:


> Oh noes, not Commies ... .


When there are avowed commies out there with signs, not like the larouche a holes that were trying to stir up trouble at tea party events, you can't discount it.
Then there is this, from whitehonor.com, are you gonna tell me they aren't Nazis?
 				[h=1]The Occupy Wall Street Movement[/h] 			






 					Oct 13, 2011				



 			 				Many racialists are unsure about, and even against, these Occupy  Wall Street protests all around the country.  It has been pointed out to  me that many protesters are non-white and/or communists. Well my  answer to that is: WHO CARES?!  They are against the same evil,  corrupted, degenerate capitalist elitists that WE are against!  Instead  of screaming, 6 million more! The pro-white movementites should be  JOINING this Occupy movement and supporting it!
 Seriously people, just WHO is our enemy?  The unemployed left-wing  25-year-old holding up a sign, OR the judeo-capitalist banksters who  swindled the American taxpayers out of A TRILLION dollars in the  bailout scam AND continue to oppress the White Working Class?!?  Even  Adolf Hitlers NSDAP had to vote with open communists on some issues to  achieve their goals.  WE need to utilize and support every movement of  dissent against this evil American empire, regardless of which end of  the political spectrum it originates from.


----------



## Makalakumu

This cartoon is a little bit too close to the truth...

View attachment $315903_246668188718929_100001272503044_755903_1382521308_n.jpg


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Saw a dozen or so standing in front of my bank when I drove by yesterday.  I did not do or say anything, nor did I stop.  However, it appeared they were trying to stop people from entering the bank.  Let me make it clear; stop me from walking into my employer or my bank or my church or anyplace else I want to go, and you're going to occupy something, alright.  You're going to occupy the emergency room at the local hospital.


----------



## Steve

Bill Mattocks said:


> Saw a dozen or so standing in front of my bank when I drove by yesterday.  I did not do or say anything, nor did I stop.  However, it appeared they were trying to stop people from entering the bank.  Let me make it clear; stop me from walking into my employer or my bank or my church or anyplace else I want to go, and you're going to occupy something, alright.  You're going to occupy the emergency room at the local hospital.


Bill, sometimes you talk a lot of smack.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

stevebjj said:


> Bill, sometimes you talk a lot of smack.



If I need to go to the bank and a group of people seriously tries to block the entrance and not let me in, what do you think is going to happen?  Do I strike you as the kind of person who will say _"Oh well, guess the people have spoken"_ and go back home?  If I want to go in the bank, I'm going in the bank.  How that happens isn't as important as that it will happen.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I still support the unleashing of Droidekas.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

I am turning into my father, though.

When he was a young man, he had to ride a bicycle to get work; he worked as a janitor at Caterpillar Tractor in Peoria, Illinois.  The union went on strike; they picketed the plant.  He rode in through the gates with a baseball bat on his handlebars, ready for someone to try to stop him from going to work.  They didn't.  When he used to tell that story, I never understood what the point of it was; now I do.

When I was a boy, my dad and I were out and about for some reason, and the United Farm Workers were on strike against Gallo wineries.  The local unions were in solidarity and blocked access to the local liquor store.  My dad was going in to pick up his usual Pabst Blue Ribbon, and some burly construction workers blocked us and said he could not go in if he was going to buy Gallo wine products.  I don't recall exactly what my dad said, but he was mad; they let him in.  He never drank wine, but he bought his Pabst and a gallon of some cheap Gallo plonk and carried it out of the store out of the bag.  He did not say a word; neither did the construction workers.  But I understood that things were very, very, tense.  In the car, my dad said to me through gritted teeth, _"Nobody tells me what I can or cannot buy with my own money."_  I didn't understand that at the time either, and now I do.

We were in Chicago one summer; my dad was working and he brought me along; we went to a Cubs game at Wrigley Field.  Later, we went to some shopping district, I don't know what it was.  But my dad accidentally crossed a picket line; I didn't even see the picketers until the signs they were carrying were waved in our faces; it was just crowded and hard to tell where the picket line actually was.  Some guy shoved my dad back; then he waved his sign like it was a sword.  Another guy tried to swing his sign at my dad's head like a baseball bat.  I remember seeing my dad's fist swing into the first guy's face; I remember seeing the teeth scattered on the ground like Chiclets.  Then my dad grabbed my hand and hustled me away.  I don't remember what the sign said, what they were protesting, nothing.  I only remember they attacked my dad for crossing some invisible line that neither of knew was there, and he dealt with it.  I didn't even remember that incident for years, and when I did, my dad would not talk about it.  I get that, too.

My dad never went looking for trouble.  And for the most part, trouble did not come looking for him.  But he went where he wanted to go, shopped where he wanted to shop, bought what he felt like buying and he only got angry when people told him what he could and could not do based on their objections to it, or actually threatened him.  Then he responded, simply and directly.  Yup.  I understand the old man a bit better now.


----------



## Twin Fist

QFHST

Quoted for hippy smacking truth



Bill Mattocks said:


> If I need to go to the bank and a group of people seriously tries to block the entrance and not let me in, what do you think is going to happen?  Do I strike you as the kind of person who will say _"Oh well, guess the people have spoken"_ and go back home?  If I want to go in the bank, I'm going in the bank.  How that happens isn't as important as that it will happen.


----------



## Makalakumu

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am turning into my father, though.
> 
> When he was a young man, he had to ride a bicycle to get work; he worked as a janitor at Caterpillar Tractor in Peoria, Illinois.  The union went on strike; they picketed the plant.  He rode in through the gates with a baseball bat on his handlebars, ready for someone to try to stop him from going to work.  They didn't.  When he used to tell that story, I never understood what the point of it was; now I do.
> 
> When I was a boy, my dad and I were out and about for some reason, and the United Farm Workers were on strike against Gallo wineries.  The local unions were in solidarity and blocked access to the local liquor store.  My dad was going in to pick up his usual Pabst Blue Ribbon, and some burly construction workers blocked us and said he could not go in if he was going to buy Gallo wine products.  I don't recall exactly what my dad said, but he was mad; they let him in.  He never drank wine, but he bought his Pabst and a gallon of some cheap Gallo plonk and carried it out of the store out of the bag.  He did not say a word; neither did the construction workers.  But I understood that things were very, very, tense.  In the car, my dad said to me through gritted teeth, _"Nobody tells me what I can or cannot buy with my own money."_  I didn't understand that at the time either, and now I do.
> 
> We were in Chicago one summer; my dad was working and he brought me along; we went to a Cubs game at Wrigley Field.  Later, we went to some shopping district, I don't know what it was.  But my dad accidentally crossed a picket line; I didn't even see the picketers until the signs they were carrying were waved in our faces; it was just crowded and hard to tell where the picket line actually was.  Some guy shoved my dad back; then he waved his sign like it was a sword.  Another guy tried to swing his sign at my dad's head like a baseball bat.  I remember seeing my dad's fist swing into the first guy's face; I remember seeing the teeth scattered on the ground like Chiclets.  Then my dad grabbed my hand and hustled me away.  I don't remember what the sign said, what they were protesting, nothing.  I only remember they attacked my dad for crossing some invisible line that neither of knew was there, and he dealt with it.  I didn't even remember that incident for years, and when I did, my dad would not talk about it.  I get that, too.
> 
> My dad never went looking for trouble.  And for the most part, trouble did not come looking for him.  But he went where he wanted to go, shopped where he wanted to shop, bought what he felt like buying and he only got angry when people told him what he could and could not do based on their objections to it, or actually threatened him.  Then he responded, simply and directly.  Yup.  I understand the old man a bit better now.



"If you won't stand up with others, they won't stand up with you."  This is something my grandfather taught me when I was a young boy.  I remember sitting down next to him at the American Legion while he talked with his Union friends and he took the time to translate adult conversation for really young ears.  "Find some common ground and give your support, because that is what keeps the country moving in a good direction."

The bottom line is that if you wait to give your support to a group of people whom you agree with 100%, you'll wait a LONG time.  And you'll watch one of two things.  Someone else will do something you care about.  Or no one will do it.


----------



## billc

Sorry Makalakumu, I am not going to support these groups who move in the same circles, willingly, with anti-jewish, and pro-communist groups.  These aren't just small groups jumping into the protests, they are big chunks of the movement.  I also don't hate wealthy people, and so you know, I am not wealthy myself.  If you want to fix the system here are some things that will help:

--end the use of the term senator/congressman, because it just makes the corrupt politicians think they are different from the rest of the masses
--END CONGRESSIONAL PENSIONS, THUS ELIMINATING 20-30 YEAR SEAT HOLDING IN CONGRESS
--put in term limits.  I know a lot of people think that elections are enough, but I don't think that is the case.  2 terms for congress, 1 term for senate, that way we can limit the damage any particular corrupt politician can do.

The above reforms will hopefully keep the protestors from moving on to greater violence.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Makalakumu said:


> "If you won't stand up with others, they won't stand up with you."  This is something my grandfather taught me when I was a young boy.  I remember sitting down next to him at the American Legion while he talked with his Union friends and he took the time to translate adult conversation for really young ears.  "Find some common ground and give your support, because that is what keeps the country moving in a good direction."
> 
> The bottom line is that if you wait to give your support to a group of people whom you agree with 100%, you'll wait a LONG time.  And you'll watch one of two things.  Someone else will do something you care about.  Or no one will do it.



That has zero to do with anything I said.


----------



## Makalakumu

Bill Mattocks said:


> That has zero to do with anything I said.



Think about it some more.  I've seen plenty of people like you and your old man.  It's easy to shut off the outside world and pursue your own agenda, but that puts a lot of trust in others to keep that path clear for you.  It's a form of the Entitlement mentality that assumes that other people will do the good work for you.  It's something to think about and it's directly related to everything you said above.


----------



## Makalakumu

billcihak said:


> Sorry Makalakumu, I am not going to support these groups who move in the same circles...



You don't know what circles the protesters move in because you've only seen them on the skewing and lying TV.  In my experience, people across the political spectrum are standing up and shouting.


----------



## billc

You forgot the word "ineffectively" between "are," and "standing."  Makalakumu, you should grab up a bunch of your protestor buddies and others and actually go and protest at the homes of Pelosi, Reid, Durbin, Obama, Frank and Dodd.  You might actually achieve something then.


----------



## Big Don

Sukerkin said:


> Oh noes, not Commies ... Bill, I confess I am surprised as I thought you were a more intelligent man than that. .


I confess, Suke, I thought you were more intelligent.
The Communists DO support these idiots.


----------



## Makalakumu

If someone is watching and talking....Mission Accomplished!


----------



## Tez3

Big Don said:


> I confess, Suke, I thought you were more intelligent.
> The Communists DO support these idiots.



All communists everywhere and all over the world or just the American communists...all ten of them?


----------



## billc

Our local commies are bad enough, but I have to think the commies around the world would support their commie brothers and sisters here in the states.  At least until they purged them.


----------



## Big Don

Tez3 said:


> All communists everywhere and all over the world or just the American communists...all ten of them?


That the national communist party, however many their members, supports these fools, gives lie to Suke's "Oh noes".


----------



## Tez3

billcihak said:


> Our local commies are bad enough, but I have to think the commies around the world would support their commie brothers and sisters here in the states. At least until they purged them.



What about the Roman Catholic Communists in Italy or the Buddhist communists in Thailand? The Hindu Communists in India? 
You generalise about communism, the left and the right, as I said, you only see things in black and white missing the truth about the world. Anything you don't believe in is labelled left wing, communist and oh so wrong, your beliefs however are beyond reproach so is sacrosanct in your eyes. One day methinks, you will have realy rude awakening when your precious right wing turns out to be as human as the rest of us.


----------



## billc

The "religous" communists are fortunate that they live in a time where the communists hold no real power.  If they did the "religous" communists would be the first in the gulags and death camps.


----------



## Tez3

billcihak said:


> The "religous" communists are fortunate that they live in a time where the communists hold no real power. If they did the "religous" communists would be the first in the gulags and death camps.



If you say so, educating you on European history, beliefs and politics would be an onerous job but I'd gladly do it if only to stop you repeating propaganda and actually make you do some real research. To go through life blinkered is a great pity. To think something cannot be because you don't wish it to be so is a dangerous way of thinking.


----------



## Big Don

Tez3 said:


> If you say so, educating you on European history, beliefs and politics would be an onerous job but I'd gladly do it if only to stop you repeating propaganda and actually make you do some real research. To go through life blinkered is a great pity. To think something cannot be because you don't wish it to be so is a dangerous way of thinking.


Communism is a failure as a system. Can you show one nation whose populace prospered under communism? Or one communist nation that didn't have mass purges?


----------



## Sukerkin

Big Don said:


> That the national communist party, however many their members, supports these fools, gives lie to Suke's "Oh noes".



I think you missed my point, Don (tho' that may be my fault as it was one of my infamous late night postings when self-expression and tact are at low ebb ).  

I was referencing the overly strong instinctive reactions that the mere mention of the word Communist (cue scary background music) evokes from Americans of a certain age {which tends to be 'our' age as we're the generation or two that grew up in the Cold War}.  It's one of those examples of how 'demonising' the enemy has a lasting effect and it's a very negative road to follow as such inflexible 'ideological purity' is not very useful when circumstances change in the Real Politik arena that is the world.

Happily we never got so indoctrinated about communism, over here in the unsinkable aircraft carrier, despite the likelihood that we, were the ones most likely to receive a nuclear "Hello" if the Cold war had ever turned hotter (without going straight to "Do you want to play Global Thermonuclear War?").  That's also despite the fact that it was only the First World War that diverted a Bolshevik uprising in this country.

Anyhoo, what I was getting is what I generally try to get at i.e. you are all intelligent and/or well educated men/women and it pains me when these threads are full to the brim with the stench of political 'testosterone'.  It turns what could be interesting and productive discussions into something quite unpleasant and not a little disturbing (you fellows being representatives of our closest ally over the past century).


----------



## Tez3

I agree totally with Sukerkin, this fear of communism is strange to say the least.

Communist country without 'purges' and prospered? Grenada- no deaths there until the American invasion.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Tez3 said:


> I agree totally with Sukerkin, this fear of communism is strange to say the least.
> 
> Communist country without 'purges' and prospered? Grenada- no deaths there until the American invasion.



That wasn't a little 'peaceful' nation though. 


> On 13 October 1983, a party faction led by Deputy Prime Minister Bernard Coard  seized power. Bishop was placed under house arrest. Mass protests  against the action led to Bishop escaping detention and reasserting his  authority as the head of the government. Bishop was eventually captured  and murdered along with several government officials loyal to him. The  army under Hudson Austin then stepped in and formed a military council to rule the country. The Governor-General of Grenada, Paul Scoon,  was placed under house arrest. The army announced a four-day total  curfew where anyone seen on the streets would be subject to summary  execution.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada


----------



## Tez3

Bob Hubbard said:


> That wasn't a little 'peaceful' nation though.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada



And the USA is?
You don't have people bumping off your Presidents and civil leaders? You've got mass protests now lol! Your National Guard has shot students protesting before.

The point is* no *country is above reproach, no political system perfect, we've all got things we wish hadn't happened or we would change but this fear of communism is irrational.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Tez3 said:


> And the USA is?
> You don't have people bumping off your Presidents and civil leaders? You've got mass protests now lol! Your National Guard has shot students protesting before.
> 
> The point is* no *country is above reproach, no political system perfect, we've all got things we wish hadn't happened or we would change but this fear of communism is irrational.


# US Presidents assassinated: 4.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots

We had mass protests in the 60's and 70's.  That's 40 years ago.
Kent State Massacres were in 1970.

Not saying 'above reproach' but theres a difference between these things. I'm unaware of anywhere in the US where there is a curfew with a death sentence attached.
We also haven't whisked away our senior military and other heads of state and 'vanished them'.  The USSR, Cuba and other communist nations however...did.


----------



## Tez3

Bob Hubbard said:


> # US Presidents assassinated: 4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots
> 
> We had mass protests in the 60's and 70's. That's 40 years ago.
> Kent State Massacres were in 1970.
> 
> Not saying 'above reproach' but theres a difference between these things. I'm unaware of anywhere in the US where there is a curfew with a death sentence attached.
> We also haven't whisked away our senior military and other heads of state and 'vanished them'. The USSR, Cuba and other communist nations however...did.



Before the Revolution in Russia there were regular pogroms with thousands being killed, that was a capitalist society so the communists took over and killed people so what was new? People kill people, always have done always will, regardless of their political beliefs. communists are no worst or better than anyone else. I doubt being a slave in capitalist America was pleasant, they were hardly allowed to wander freely were they? Even released they still had a stinker of a life dodging capitalist lynch mobs. 
The point is that it's not the systems it's the people, to be so afraid of communism and as Sukerkin says to froth at the mouth about it is not attractive in a country where the people pride themselves on free speech and being reasonable.


----------



## billc

The following video is not something you would see at a Tea Party rally...

http://www.breitbart.tv/occupy-portland-protesters-sing-f-the-usa/


----------



## Twin Fist

tez,
you are wrong

the red chinese are as anti religion as stalin ever was.

you are just simply wrong.



Tez3 said:


> If you say so, educating you on European history, beliefs and politics would be an onerous job but I'd gladly do it if only to stop you repeating propaganda and actually make you do some real research. To go through life blinkered is a great pity. To think something cannot be because you don't wish it to be so is a dangerous way of thinking.


----------



## billc

Then why are you so concerned with the alleged "right wing" in Europe Tez.  (in truth they are the far, far left)  They must just be "people," too.


----------



## Tez3

billcihak said:


> The following video is not something you would see at a Tea Party rally...
> 
> http://www.breitbart.tv/occupy-portland-protesters-sing-f-the-usa/



Well that's what you get when you allow free speech, it's a bugger ain't it. :lol: You'll have ban it.


----------



## Twin Fist

communism by definition is anti religion

who was it that said "religion is the opiate of the masses"


pretty sure he was involved SOMEHOW in communism....:mst:


----------



## billc

I love free speech Tez, even from these foolish people.  Unfortunately, if they ever had real control over the country free speech would be one of the first things to go, as they have shown in all the countries where they had the upper hand.


----------



## Tez3

Twin Fist said:


> tez,
> you are wrong
> 
> the red chinese are as anti religion as stalin ever was.
> 
> you are just simply wrong.




The last time I looked China wasn't in Europe so I don't think I can be wrong about some of the European communists. 


BillC you keep talking about 'they', it worries me. Who are these 'they'? Bob has already explained that there a mixture of people at the demos and as America is the last place on earth to turn communist I don't know why you are so afraid.


----------



## Sukerkin

Twin Fist said:


> tez,
> you are wrong
> 
> .



Not regarding the general concept of which she is speaking, my friend.  In that she is most definitely correct.  It is very dangerous to not think, not properly investigate and not listen, even to people you fundamentally disagree with ... for what other reason would I not have BillC on Ignore :lol:?

Also, glad to see something from you - I was about to do a search to see when you last posted as I didn't recall seeing anything from you for a day or two :tup:.


----------



## billc

More amazement really at the communists.  The national socialists (nazis) will march every once in a great while here in Illinois or other states.  They are met by hundreds of counter marchers who ridicule them, and make a nice counterpoint to their racist rallies of 10-15 people.  The communists murdered close to 100 million people around the world, the national socialists about 15-20 million people.  The communists march openly and without the same counter protests that you see with the national socialists and with a great many people making excuses for their philosophy.  Something you don't see with the national socialists.  No one ever says, "well, it's the people, not the philosophy of the nazis" or "nazism was never really tried,"  when you talk about national socialists.

Another funny thing, you will never see a lovable nazi.  For example, in the movie Red, there is a lovable KGB agent who is the romantic interest to the British agent.  The KGB were just as bad as the gestapo, killed more people, simply because they lasted longer, and yet...they are now lovable.  That is what makes me interested in the false philosophy of communism.  It has yet to have its moment of real scorn and contempt, the way the national socialists have.  I mean, a lot of those silly protesters are wearing Che t-shirts.  Why don't they wear hitler t-shirts?  They could switch them each day, and maybe have a mass murderer day at the protest rally where everyone wears their favorite mass murderer t-shirt.


----------



## Sukerkin

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm


----------



## Twin Fist

school has been a chore pal. Just havnt had time for message boards



Sukerkin said:


> Not regarding the general concept of which she is speaking, my friend.  In that she is most definitely correct.  It is very dangerous to not think, not properly investigate and not listen, even to people you fundamentally disagree with ... for what other reason would I not have BillC on Ignore :lol:?
> 
> Also, glad to see something from you - I was about to do a search to see when you last posted as I didn't recall seeing anything from you for a day or two :tup:.


----------



## Steve

Bill Mattocks said:


> If I need to go to the bank and a group of people seriously tries to block the entrance and not let me in, what do you think is going to happen?  Do I strike you as the kind of person who will say _"Oh well, guess the people have spoken"_ and go back home?  If I want to go in the bank, I'm going in the bank.  How that happens isn't as important as that it will happen.


Lol.  Okay, bill.  Frankly, it strikes me as unnecessarily dramatic.  I mean you say stuff like this a lot, and I get a kick out of it.  "Saw some girl scouts at the grocery store today.  They ask me if I want to buy a cookie, I'll give em a cookie...  A KNUCKLE COOKIE, right to the mouth!"You just don't strike me as the perpetually hostile guy you sometimes try to present.  Or maybe you are.  Just strikes me as funny. . Obviously big don and twin fist like the barely controlled rage brimming just below the surface.  Hehe.


----------



## RandomPhantom700

Sorry, folks, but 17 pages and all I read is a whole lot of refusing to look in Galileo's telescope.  Along with changing the rules depending on whether the subject flies a blue flag or a red one.


----------



## elder999

Tez3 said:


> Before the Revolution in Russia there were regular pogroms with thousands being killed, that was a capitalist society so the communists took over and killed people so what was new? People kill people, always have done always will, regardless of their political beliefs. communists are no worst or better than anyone else. I doubt being a slave in capitalist America was pleasant, they were hardly allowed to wander freely were they? Even released they still had a stinker of a life dodging capitalist lynch mobs.
> .



Let's not even get into the annihilation of Ameican Indians, and the great western land grab-er, I mean "migration." All for $$$$$$$. 

Capitalism at it's finest.


----------



## Tez3

billcihak said:


> Then why are you so concerned with the alleged "right wing" in Europe Tez. (in truth they are the far, far left) They must just be "people," too.



In truth? they *are* far right and I'm concerned because they keep trying to annihalate me and mine, I know it's a poor reason to worry about the far right taking over but there you are, I just like to worry about trivia.


----------



## Big Don

LANGUAGE WARNING
Howard Stern show talks to OWS morons 
Via Breitbart
LANGUAGE WARNING

What a bunch of morons


----------



## Big Don




----------



## Master Dan

It is time for common people to rise up about real issues. Jefferson belief in one man one vote was never meant to be all men but educated people on the issues enough to make a reasonable decision. It makes me sick how simlar to propaganda and out right lies a common tool of Facist or despot resoning can convince conservative or right or right right think people of complete and total lies with regards to fair and reasonable handling of the American economic policies. The media Phycology of a thing today and Montra of the Repuplican Party GOP is dosn't matter if its a lie or distortion of the truth if you repeat it enough times in the media it becomes true and people are dumb enough to support it and that in America that is a large % of our voter base totally voting on thier uneducated emotions. They and the people that lead them to the edge of the cliff will not listen to plain and simple facts that the rich are raping robbing and murdering people here on a mass scale and getting away with it and that they only want more. Worst of all when all else fails just throw the values card we are better than them or our problems are those lazy or ugly or not same church or or or on and on. Our elections are now bought and sold and it will take everyone on both sides democrats and dilusional republicans when they finally don't have a pot to piss in to take it back. It is not in mans nature to be governed and for the greedy to be controlled only government acting on the mutual interest of the many will protect the majority from the tirany of the few. What they have done to huge pension funds in the US they should executed. while large companies have been raided and bankrupt CEO and execs have been given retirement packages in the billions. This is not going to change until congress grows a pair of balls because they are facing being fired by the people or domestic terrorism rises to kill some of thesee *** Holes

T


----------



## Big Don

Master Dan said:


> Jefferson's belief in one man one vote was never meant to be all men, but, educated people on the issues enough to make a reasonable decision.


 What part of the OWS protestors looks educated and/or reasonable?





> It makes me sick how similar to propaganda and outright lies a common tool of fascist or despotic reasoning can convince conservative or right or right right think people of complete and total lies with regards to fair and reasonable handling of the American economic policies.


 Where is Elder's favorite photo when I need it? Oh, here it is: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





> The media Psychology of a thing today and Mantra of the Republican Party GOP is doesn't matter if its a lie or distortion of the truth if you repeat it enough times in the media it becomes true and people are dumb enough to support it and that in America that is a large % of our voter base totally voting on their uneducated emotions.


 Like the people at OWS protests? 





> They and the people that lead them to the edge of the cliff will not listen to plain and simple facts that the rich are raping





> , robbing and murdering people here on a mass scale and getting away with it and that they only want more.


 You can't rape the willing, and most of those who lost houses, sadly, bought more house then they could afford and failed to read and comprehend the terms of their mortgages, how is that anyone's fault, but. theirs? 





> Worst of all





> , when all else fails; just throw the values card "We are better than them." or our problems are those lazy or ugly or not same church or or or on and on.


 Uh oh, bunny time again 





> Our elections are now bought and sold and it will take everyone on both sides democrats and delusional republicans when they finally don't have a pot to piss in to take it back.


 Why are only republican's delusional? How is unsustainable spending responsible? 





> It is not in man





> 's nature to be governed and for the greedy to be controlled only government acting on the mutual interest of the many will protect the majority from the tyranny of the few.


 The few thousand dirty, uniformed, inarticulate protestors out of a population over 300 million?





> What they have done to huge pension funds in the US they should executed.


 Can you show an actual crime? If so, what crime? 





> While large companies have been raided and bankrupt





> ed, CEO's and execs have been given retirement packages in the billions.


 Gee, I guess CEO's were smart enough to negotiate their contracts to look after their interests, shouldn't everyone be as conscientious? 





> This is not going to change until congress grows a pair of balls because they are facing being fired by the people or domestic terrorism rises to kill some of





> these *** Holes





> !


It kind of looks like you're endorsing domestic terrorism, there...
Sorry, had to do some editing before I could make enough sense of your rant to respond to it.


----------



## granfire

Big Don said:


> What part of the OWS protestors looks educated and/or reasonable? Where is Elder's favorite photo when I need it? Oh, here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like the people at OWS protests?  You can't rape the willing, and most of those who lost houses, sadly, bought more house then they could afford and failed to read and comprehend the terms of their mortgages, how is that anyone's fault, but. theirs?  Uh oh, bunny time again
> 
> 
> 
> Why are only republican's delusional? How is unsustainable spending responsible?  The few thousand dirty, uniformed, inarticulate protestors out of a population over 300 million? Can you show an actual crime? If so, what crime?  Gee, I guess CEO's were smart enough to negotiate their contracts to look after their interests, shouldn't everyone be as conscientious?
> It kind of looks like you're endorsing domestic terrorism, there...
> Sorry, had to do some editing before I could make enough sense of your rant to respond to it.




Oh, come on!

You can do so much better than following billi's footstep of 'the good republicans and the evil lefties' !

This is really getting beyond boring!
Not everybody protesting on Wall Street is an uneducated moron. And not everybody who claims to be republican is blessed with intellect and/or knowledge (heaven knows, they have paraded enough idiots as presidential hopefuls!)

The way banking is done now is clearly not working. Apparently the Larry Holmes of this world gather that much.

but cutting benefits for those who already don't have a lot....that is clearly not boosting the economy either.

(and frankly, I am lacking sympathy for folks who can buy my whole life with their petty cash they find in their couches and ashtrays, why are so many people with little money defending them? The snowball's chance in hell that they might get rich some time, too? Those really rich people are not about to share if they can help it)


----------



## Steve

Don, 

In lieu of a bunny with a pancake on its head, I'll just reiterate some quick points I posted in an earlier thread.

Are you part of the 80%? If you make less than about $90k/year, you are part of the 80% that owes 75% of the debt, but makes only about 40% of the income. As a group, you account for a total of 7% of our Nation's financial wealth and your investments total about 12% of all of the investments in the country. That includes your 401ks. Your total net worth as a group is in the 15% range.

The greatest feat of the super wealthy in our country has been in the arena of public relations.  The top 1% has been very successful convincing the bottom 80% that they are victims.  This is simply not the case.

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
http://www.mybudget360.com/top-1-percent-control-42-percent-of-financial-wealth-in-the-us-how-average-americans-are-lured-into-debt-servitude-by-promises-of-mega-wealth/

Edit:  Just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to characterize the rich as evil or villainous.  Rather, I'm pointing out that they aren't helpless victims, either.  This isn't about whether there are rich or poor.  The key is that the distance between the top 1% and the bottom 80% is growing.


----------



## Flying Crane

granfire said:


> Oh, come on!
> 
> You can do so much better than following billi's footstep of 'the good republicans and the evil lefties' !
> 
> This is really getting beyond boring!
> Not everybody protesting on Wall Street is an uneducated moron. And not everybody who claims to be republican is blessed with intellect and/or knowledge (heaven knows, they have paraded enough idiots as presidential hopefuls!)
> 
> The way banking is done now is clearly not working. Apparently the Larry Holmes of this world gather that much.
> 
> but cutting benefits for those who already don't have a lot....that is clearly not boosting the economy either.
> 
> (and frankly, I am lacking sympathy for folks who can buy my whole life with their petty cash they find in their couches and ashtrays, why are so many people with little money defending them? The snowball's chance in hell that they might get rich some time, too? Those really rich people are not about to share if they can help it)



Agreed, GF.  Eighteen pages in at this point. I suggest this thread be moved to the Comedy Cafe.


----------



## billc

some more bad behavior:

http://www.breitbart.tv/occupywallstreet-threatens-businesses-patrons/

Why can't they just leave people alone?


----------



## billc

Bill Whittle, video commentator, has some interesting thoughts on the OWS'ers:

http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&mpid=56&load=6158

I hope this comes through, it is a pretty good video.


----------



## granfire

billcihak said:


> some more bad behavior:
> 
> http://www.breitbart.tv/occupywallstreet-threatens-businesses-patrons/
> 
> Why can't they just leave people alone?


----------



## billc

Add putting 4 year old on train tracks to keep train from picking up cargo...

http://www.breitbart.tv/occupyportl...d-daughter-on-train-tracks-to-shut-down-port/


----------



## Bob Hubbard

billcihak said:


> Add putting 4 year old on train tracks to keep train from picking up cargo...
> 
> http://www.breitbart.tv/occupyportl...d-daughter-on-train-tracks-to-shut-down-port/



That's not "Child Endangerment" Bill, that's good honest protesting.

Honestly, that parent should be drawn and quartered IMO.


----------

