# The 'stabless' knife comes to England



## Deaf Smith (Jun 15, 2009)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6501720.ece



> The first anti-stab knife is to go on sale in Britain, designed to work as normal in the kitchen but to be ineffective as a weapon.


 
Yes! This will stop CRIME! No more temptation to stick your loved one with the all-so-available kitchen knife. We all know the easily available kitchen knife is the major cause of crime! The temptation to rid yourselves of those near you is so great you cannot control your urges. So this must be stopped!

Rid your kitchen of the terror that surrounds you. Get anti-stab knifes and turn in your steak knives!

Do it for the children!

Deaf


----------



## arnisador (Jun 15, 2009)

Sheesh!!!


----------



## Carol (Jun 15, 2009)

Eeeeyuw.  Those look like a hideous rendition of the old sailors knives...the kind that were sharp on the sides but had a blunted or rounded tip so if the sailors had them on their person when they went for shoreleave, they would'nt be causing as much of a ruckus on land (insert Scollay Square story here).

Ugh.  Heaven forbid someone need to use a knife for....you know...home defense?


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 15, 2009)

Well, obviously it's impossible to kill someone by, you know, _slashing_ them with the blade, say, across the throat.

I just don't know why they haven't done the same with forks yet. I mean, they are all prong-y and you can take an eye out with them. Also, I'd like to see someone come up with "anti-boiling" hot water so no one will get scalded again. And if they would just invent an "anti-running-over-someone" car we'd be all set. 

BTW, what kind of person thinks "Yeah, I better buy knives I - or someone I live with - can't kill people with"? That might be a sign of bigger problems to deal with, no?

Pax,

Chris


----------



## arnisador (Jun 15, 2009)

chrispillertkd said:


> Well, obviously it's impossible to kill someone by, you know, _slashing_ them with the blade



Yeah, I would totally not know how to do that.

I suppose for the moment-of-anger attacks, it may result in lesser damage to the victim. We tend to think of using the knives in self-defense but they _are_ used to attack too.

That having been said--de-knifing one's knife seems a bit silly to me. It's a knife!


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 15, 2009)

I actually agree with one of the comments...  It'd be a good tool for teaching cooking to kids and maybe even in school home economics classes.


----------



## Ken Morgan (Jun 15, 2009)

Lets see nowpeople will now have to resort to using box cutters, utility knives, screw drivers, pointy sticks and forks to stab people with.

When they ban pointy sticks, let me know.then I know its time for my revolution to succeed!!


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jun 15, 2009)

Sorry, I know I posted this video recently, but it seems so...appropriate.

[yt]
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/piWCBOsJr-w&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/piWCBOsJr-w&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
[/yt]


----------



## MA-Caver (Jun 15, 2009)

> (www.newpointknives.co.uk)
> 
> The first &#8220;anti-stab&#8221; knife is to go on sale in Britain, designed to work as  normal in the kitchen but to be ineffective as a weapon.


*

NOTHING*, absolutely NOTHING is _ineffective_ as a weapon. Thrust hard enough it'll penetrate the human body, it'd hurt like hell but it'd still penetrate. So calling it an Anti-stab or stabless shows ignorance of just how one can convert *ANYTHING* into a weapon. 

Also as someone else has observed... one can slash and cut with these so they're just giving a gimmick.


----------



## Big Don (Jun 15, 2009)

I can't wait for the first news report of some poor bastard beaten to death with a ladle.


----------



## Uchinanchu (Jun 16, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> I actually agree with one of the comments... It'd be a good tool for teaching cooking to kids and maybe even in school home economics classes.


 
Actually, the 'childrens kitchen knife' has been around for many years.  The Japanese use them with young children.  My own daughter had one with a pink handle and kittychan (Hello Kitty) pictures on the blade.


----------



## Carol (Jun 16, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> Lets see now&#8230;people will now have to resort to using box cutters, utility knives, screw drivers, pointy sticks and forks to stab people with.
> 
> When they ban pointy sticks, let me know&#8230;.then I know it&#8217;s time for my revolution to succeed!!



Pointed Sticks? 

[yt]w385WjScsXI[/yt]


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 16, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> Actually, the 'childrens kitchen knife' has been around for many years. The Japanese use them with young children. My own daughter had one with a pink handle and kittychan (Hello Kitty) pictures on the blade.


 

Yep we've had then before too despite the news artricle. 
And Deaf when are you going to realise "England" isn't the UK? perhaps I should start saying Texas when I mean the USA lol!
someone is trying to make some money out of the 'knife situation' we have here, can you blame then? perhaps, can you blame the whole country for one manufacturer, certainly not.


----------



## MahaKaal (Jun 16, 2009)

What the government dont understand that it is not the weapon that is dangerous, it is the INTENTION! Rather than educate people to avoid violence or having stricter sentences for such crimes, they are trying to make these ridiculous products! Anything can be used to hurt another human if you hit them hard enough with it in the right place. Pushing a pencil into someones throat, pushing a needle into someones neck, hitting someones head off a wall, pushing them infront of a car, using a lighter on someones clothes, the list goes on and on!

We will soon live in a world where everything around us is bubble wrapped incase we get hurt, and food will be in liquid form to avoid knives incase someone gets cut.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 16, 2009)

What the people on here don't seem to understand thats IT'S NOT A GOVERNMENT INITIATIVE!!. It's a manufacturer who wants to make some money that has brought this out (thought that was an American ideal btw?) he submitted it for testing to a govenment lab...as many others do.. and they said yeah it does what you said it does or doesn't if you want to look at it like that.
Only the manufacturer who is aiming to sell loads is plugging this as an anti crime knife nobody here is stupid to enough to think selling these will stop crime only many of you seem to be insulting enough to think we are really thinking this will save lives. Get real people....this is a man out to make money,not a government trying to stop crime, just because the research place says it's 'fit for purpose' as are a lot of other things don't go mistaking a money making enterprise with the governments initiatives on crime.

As for the doctors that want to ban knives, they also want to ban boxing, MMA and martial arts so guess how much notice we take of them?


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 16, 2009)

A dull knife will still cut it just means you have to push harder down.

A pointy thing still goes thru something you just might have to push harder.

If it can cut veggies it should have problem going thru human skin.

I am sure there will be plenty of people trying it out on others.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 16, 2009)

Personally I think the pen is mightier than the sword.

Easier to carry and just as effective when shoved through an eye.


----------



## Sukerkin (Jun 16, 2009)

Aye, this is a strangely twisted news report.  

As *Tez* said, there has been some talk in circles advising the government on an initiative to de-point knives but it was so resoundingly dismissed it never went anywhere (to my knowledge).

It's a 'canny' move by the manufacturer to play on the gullability of some people by taking advantage of the high profile reporting of knive crime (which has been tantermount to fear mongering in my opinion).


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 16, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Aye, this is a strangely twisted news report.
> 
> As *Tez* said, there has been some talk in circles advising the government on an initiative to de-point knives but it was so resoundingly dismissed it never went anywhere (to my knowledge).
> 
> It's a 'canny' move by the manufacturer to play on the gullability of some people by taking advantage of the high profile reporting of knive crime (which has been tantermount to fear mongering in my opinion).


 
Thats the one!!  :uhyeah:


----------



## arnisador (Jun 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> What the people on here don't seem to understand thats IT'S NOT A GOVERNMENT INITIATIVE!!



There's a huge govt. initiative there to reduce knife crime by banning carry of knives. This was called for by the medical community and is in response to that. The knives seen here may not have been procured by the U.K. govt., but overall the initiative is there!

By the way, from a purely engineering point-of-view this seems like a good solution to the perceived problem!


----------



## CoryKS (Jun 16, 2009)

So, you can stab it with your steely knife but you just can't kill the beast?


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 16, 2009)

arnisador said:


> There's a huge govt. initiative there to reduce knife crime by banning carry of knives. This was called for by the medical community and is in response to that. The knives seen here may not have been procured by the U.K. govt., but overall the initiative is there!
> 
> By the way, from a purely engineering point-of-view this seems like a good solution to the perceived problem!


 

I know little about engineering so can't comment lol! Might be good for schools domestic science classes etc or perhaps prisons? But I suppose someone is at least trying to be constructive.
On the subject of the posts, some on the propospals suggested seem unlikely, there's a huge lack of money around and if I haven't heard of them in police circles i doubt they were ever a serious proposal.
Many communities are calling for the banning of knives and the government has to be seen to be responding to the wishes of the people who live there so it's hard to know what to do for the best.


It seems sometimes that whatever we do over here gets criticised by outsiders, nothing is right in their eyes. I've discussed this so many times on here, I'm tired of it. The OP was yet again trying to make out that the British people are being led by the nose and are too stupid to realise it.
1. We have a knife crime problem here. 
2. We are trying various ways to combat this.
3. We are open to suggestions. I am in a position that if you have a serious suggestion I can put it to my powers that be but. . . . . 

if all you want to do is sneer then I'm sorry I feel sorry for you. 

(this is not addressed to Arnisador btw although I have quoted his post!)


----------



## CoryKS (Jun 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> It seems sometimes that whatever we do over here gets criticised by outsiders, nothing is right in their eyes. I've discussed this so many times on here, I'm tired of it. The OP was yet again trying to make out that the British people are being led by the nose and are too stupid to realise it.


 
That sounds terrible.  I'm sure glad we American don't have that problem.  :shrug:


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 16, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> That sounds terrible. I'm sure glad we American don't have that problem. :shrug:


 
Well I for one don't criticise American laws or policing policies. I don't comment at all on your gun laws either.


----------



## FieldDiscipline (Jun 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I am in a position that if you have a serious suggestion I can put it to my powers that be but. . . . .


----------



## theletch1 (Jun 16, 2009)

Let's keep the America bashing and UK bashing off the site lest we both derail the thread and generate way more heat than is welcome.  Just a polite suggestion. 

There is a knife crime problem in the UK.  There is a gun crime problem in the US.  Banning either will serve nothing more than to dis-arm the honest population.  Criminals will, by their very nature, continue to have these weapons.


----------



## Sukerkin (Jun 16, 2009)

Exactly so, my friend :tup:.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 16, 2009)

What's being banned here is the *carrying* of knives and bladed weapons not the ownership of them. there is absolutely no need to go out to the pub carrying a knife nor go to a nightclub with one. There's no reason to walk around the streets with a blade at all.
Btw I haven't bashed America at all if thats was what the insinuation was. I don't comment on things American in that respect.


----------



## arnisador (Jun 16, 2009)

theletch1 said:


> There is a knife crime problem in the UK.  There is a gun crime problem in the US.  Banning either will serve nothing more than to dis-arm the honest population.  Criminals will, by their very nature, continue to have these weapons.



I mostly agree...but the U.K. gun ban has been pretty effective w.r.t. criminals, hasn't it?


----------



## arnisador (Jun 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> There's no reason to walk around the streets with a blade at all.



I dunno...it's nice to have a self-defense option available! There isn't always a bobby around when you need one. But I certainly agree that too many people who carry them (say, in a bar) are much too apt to use them--their presence can turn an argument into a fight.

Are there legal self-defense weapons a person can carry there? Pepper spray? A kubotan/pocket stick? A taser/stun gun?


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 16, 2009)

arnisador said:


> I dunno...it's nice to have a self-defense option available! There isn't always a bobby around when you need one. But I certainly agree that too many people who carry them (say, in a bar) are much too apt to use them--their presence can turn an argument into a fight.
> 
> Are there legal self-defense weapons a person can carry there? Pepper spray? A kubotan/pocket stick? A taser/stun gun?


 

The trouble is it's not the adults who are carrying knives it's the youths and it's the youths that are being stabbed. It's not muggings, burglaries or thefts, it's young lads in gangs. You wouldn't need to defend yourself with a knife against being attacked, you're not the target...what we have is children killing children, hence the despair.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/four-arrested-in-kinsella-stabbing-probe-857898.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/7684077.stm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/youth-killings-this-is-london-860863.htmlhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/21/stab-knife-everton-liverpool


----------



## Deaf Smith (Jun 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> And Deaf when are you going to realise "England" isn't the UK? perhaps I should start saying Texas when I mean the USA lol!


 
Tez,

Texas, unlike the rest of the United States, once was a country in it's own right. Texas is what the rest of the USA wishes it could be!

Ok, I'll say UK from now own.

Knife situation? Son, a knife can be made out of just about any piece of metal. Knives have been here since the stone age flint knives. It ain't going away with silly 'anti-stab' knives. Even without metal, they would make them out of bone or flint or any flat rock.



Tez3 said:


> What's being banned here is the *carrying* of knives and bladed weapons not the ownership of them. there is absolutely no need to go out to the pub carrying a knife nor go to a nightclub with one. There's no reason to walk around the streets with a blade at all.


 
And there is where we disagree. The right to defend yourself cannot be exercised if you don't have the means to defend yourself. Not everyone is a H2H expert. Not everyone is strong. Not everyone can defeat a pack of robbers by themselves (in fact, few can.) Not everyone can defend themselves against those with weapons they brought (illegally or legally.)

And that is why the right to self defense means you have the right to the MEANS of self defense. 

Deaf


----------



## Amazon (Jun 16, 2009)

Changing any item so that it's less effective as a weapon would only make it a LESS attractive to me, as a buyer.

Personally, I would prefer to have as many things as possible at my disposal to use as weapons in the event that I need to defend myself.  Any time a home invasion scenario has crossed my mind, the first weapon I picture going for is a moderate sized kitchen knife.  I would never take that away from myself.

If I don't want my kids getting their hands on them, I'll take steps to reasonably secure the items, as any responsible parent should.


----------



## Amazon (Jun 16, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> A dull knife will still cut it just means you have to push harder down.
> 
> A pointy thing still goes thru something you just might have to push harder.
> 
> ...



I used to carry a self defense knife and the funny thing is, they recommend you keep it somewhat dull.  It seems the general advice is to slash with a somewhat dull knife, and run.

Stabbing or slashing with a sharp knife supposedly doesn't hurt as much and, thus, doesn't slow the attacker as quickly.


----------



## David43515 (Jun 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> What's being banned here is the *carrying* of knives and bladed weapons not the ownership of them. there is absolutely no need to go out to the pub carrying a knife nor go to a nightclub with one. There's no reason to walk around the streets with a blade at all.
> Btw I haven't bashed America at all if thats was what the insinuation was. I don't comment on things American in that respect.


 

I have to disagree with you. A knife is the single most basic tool in the history of mankind. Everyone here has been commenting on knives as self-defense items, and I`ll admit that`s one reason I carry mine. But what about thier use as a simple tool.

I carry a pocket knife every day. I use it as a letter opener. I open boxes with it. I cut up tape, string,fruit, bread, cheese,etc. I use it to scrape, pry, dig, etc. When I worked in a bar, the bartender occationally borrowed it to cut lemons and limes because he knew I kept it much sharper than anything in the kitchen. At a wedding I recently atended I used it to trim back and arbor so the photographer could get a better picture, to trim a loose thread from my wife`s dress, and to remove a large splinter from the dancefloor that threatened to snag the ladies` gowns. (When one guest asked in a very beligerant tone why I was carrying "a weapon" at the wedding, I pointed out that the streak knives all the guests were using to enjoy thier meals were much larger than my pocket knife.) Last summer on a day trip to an amusement park I helped someone with car trouble by cutting off the split end of a hose so they could reattach it and be on thier way.

If banning objects changed people`s behavior, then we could cure obesity by restricting forks. Just because some people aren`t teaching thier kids morality and repsonsability does`t mean  all people should be punished for things they haven`t done.


----------



## Monadnock (Jun 16, 2009)

Why doesn't England just ban anything that isn't NERF ?

NERF knives...
NERF scissors...
NERF screwdriver....

I think I'm going to call my stock broker. Might want to get in on this one early...


----------



## thardey (Jun 16, 2009)

I don't get what the big deal is . . .
The "stabless" knife has been around for generations -- It's called a "straight razor." 

And we all know how ineffective those are for use in crime, particularly "crimes of passion."

BTW, Deaf, unless I've got my wires crossed, I think Tez was saying that England is to the UK, like Texas is to America. So if you're talking about something "England" did, it doesn't neccessarily apply to other parts of the "United Kingdom" like Ireland or Wales.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

Guys, most of you are still missing the point here. We aren't talking self defence here, we aren't talking about defending your loved ones in a home invasion. We aren't talking about you at all.
We are talking about the children here who carrying knives every day and kill other children with them.
Thats the problem we have here, *it isn't a self defence issue*, it's not a civil rights issue, it's about a specific problem we have here with young people and knives.
Please can you grasp the idea that we aren't talking about reasonable peole being prepared to defend themseves? *This is the murder of our children by other children.*


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

We aren't talking about children from 'bad' backgrounds necessarily, we have teenagers caught up in gangs and the gang culture through no fault of the parents. We have children who don't belong to gangs carrying knives because the gang members do and they need to protect themselves. It's a vicious circle they are stuck in.
The police aren't stopping and searching people going about their everyday business so carrying pocket knives, fishing knives, cooks knives etc is no problem, it's gangs of teenagers that are the target not the public. The gangs are a danger to others and themselves. I can't impress on you enough how much of a problem this is in the inner cities, it's not a minority any more it's a fairly large proportion of inner city kids.In the first six months of 2008 19 teenagers were stabbed to death in London alone.

http://www.stevereed.org.uk/?PageId=24547c62-d951-7354-4de3-dac243d03bfc

The problem is a huge political hot potato with nobody knowing what to do for the best.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/13/knifecrime.ukcrime

I tend to agree that we need social conditions to be changed before we see a reduction in knife crime among teenagers. Curiously though knife crime as a whole has gone down though the media still make out that we a crime ridden society when we are not.


----------



## FieldDiscipline (Jun 17, 2009)

It is a very strange thing Tez.  Do you think there is a demographic issue?


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Guys, most of you are still missing the point here. We aren't talking self defence here, we aren't talking about defending your loved ones in a home invasion. We aren't talking about you at all.
> We are talking about the children here who carrying knives every day and kill other children with them.
> Thats the problem we have here, *it isn't a self defence issue*, it's not a civil rights issue, it's about a specific problem we have here with young people and knives.


 
Being able to defend oneself isn't a matter of civil rights.



> Please can you grasp the idea that we aren't talking about reasonable peole being prepared to defend themseves? *This is the murder of our children by other children.*


 
If this is the case then why is everyone being banned from carrying a knife? Wouldn't it make much more sense to simply say that it's illegal for a *minor* to carry one? That doesn't seem to be what is going on, from what I have read in this thread (I could be wrong, however, as I've skipped some of the links).

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

chrispillertkd said:


> Being able to defend oneself isn't a matter of civil rights.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

To be honest I've given up trying to explain whats going on here, people who don't live here can't seem to understand. We ( and the rest of Europe) don't have the American's phobia for self defence and the need for it, other than the kids who carry knives the rest of us don't feel threatened enough to be armed to the teeth all the time.I think it might be a uniquely American thing about being armed (not a criticism btw an observation) but we don't share it. Here is an interesting article explaining our laws (which actually date back to the Fifties) mostly about carrying weapons.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/index.php/General/UK-Knife-Law-Edged-Tools.html


I said the problem with youths and knives etc isn't a civil rights matter nor is it a self defence matter, it's a criminal matter, as I also said you will not be a target, a child will be. 

FD, I think it is a demographic thing, it seems rare in the country and small towns. Diane Abbott said it's also a thing where many children grow up in single parent homes with no man for guidance on how to behave  as man, she also said it was primararily a black thing, just as well _she_ says that though! the Inner City poverty is also blamed as is the rise in underage binge drinking.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> To be honest I've given up trying to explain whats going on here, people who don't live here can't seem to understand.


 
Maybe. Then again, maybe not.  



> We ( and the rest of Europe) don't have the American's phobia for self defence and the need for it,


 
Thank God we've all gotten past making sweeping generalizations. I mean, how silly would it have been if someone had said that Europeans were simply experiencing the natural result of causing two world wars and ascribing to a crypto-nihilism. 



> other than the kids who carry knives the rest of us don't feel threatened enough to be armed to the teeth all the time.


 
Carrying a knife is hardly being armed to the teeth. And no, I don't carry one. Or a gun. 

But considering that at least some kids over there are carrying and using knives on their fellow minors I can certainly understand why others would want to be armed. 



> I think it might be a uniquely American thing about being armed (not a criticism btw an observation) but we don't share it.
> Here is an interesting article explaining our laws (which actually date back to the Fifties) mostly about carrying weapons.
> http://www.bushcraftuk.com/index.php/General/UK-Knife-Law-Edged-Tools.html


 
Having the burden of proof put on the citizen and having it depend in many cases on what constitutes a "good reason" is asking for future trouble, IMO. But hey, I'm not the one who has to live with it (I have enough stupid laws over here to navigate).  



> I said the problem with youths and knives etc isn't a civil rights matter nor is it a self defence matter, it's a criminal matter, as I also said you will not be a target, a child will be.


 
Except that if one kid attacks someone with a knife and the other person defends himself with a knife he's carrying "for a good reason" then it is a matter of self defense. Sure you can say that will never happen. Except at some point it will, or will at least be used as a defense. 

But none of this really answers my question: If this is a phenomenon limited to minors why not just outlaw minors carrying knives? 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

Our laws on knife carrying are *over fifty years old* they aren't new and they aren't stupid.

Chris you seem to be making a habit of misconstruing my posts these days. 
why shouldn't people be responsible for their own actions? Or do you think that as we have a Socialist government we have no idea of what civic responsibility is?
The kids don't say they stabbed someone in self defence...they don't say anything at all. 
I said it wasn't a critisism though you've taken it as one, that americans seem more concerned over carrying weapons than we are. Blaming us for causing two world wars, thats just beyond the pale. As someone who's family were wiped out in the camps should I be blaming them for their horrible demise then?

As I also said.... I give up.


----------



## mook jong man (Jun 17, 2009)

There's no big deal about the knife laws in the U.K , we have the same knife laws in Australia. 

Knives are prohibited for sale to teenagers , and it is illegal for anyone to have a knife on them in a public place without a reasonable excuse like in the pursuit of there lawful occupation etc.

But we still have the problem of teenagers carrying knives to school because they are being bullied or something , and teenagers in gangs stabbing other teenagers in gangs.

With the adults it seems to be binge drinking and shoving schooner glasses into each others faces or fisticuffs after they all spill out onto the street when its closing time at the pub.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Our laws on knife carrying are *over fifty years old* they aren't new and they aren't stupid.


 
Well, I suppose everyone's entitled to their own opinions. 

Frankly, I think a lot of laws passed in the U.S. are frivilous so kudos to you chaps for not putting any new laws on the books in this area for so long. Of course, that doesn't mean they were well written in the first place (and from what I saw in the link you provided I'd have to say they are not, but that's just me not liking loopholes you can drive a trck through).



> Chris you seem to be making a habit of misconstruing my posts these days.


 
Quite the contrary, actually.



> why shouldn't people be responsible for their own actions? Or do you think that as we have a Socialist government we have no idea of what civic responsibility is?


 
I'm all for personal responsibility. Whether or not a socialist government promotes that (or even can) is a legitimate question. I think it certainly is working at a disadvantage, to say the least.



> The kids don't say they stabbed someone in self defence...they don't say anything at all.


 
Another sweeping generalization. I'm fairly sure that when cases go to court their lawyers offer some kind of defense, no? It's at least conceivable that at some point in time some one is going to hit on the idea that, "Hey, stabbings of we young folk happen a lot these days so I figured I'd arm myself." It will be an interesting occurance, especially given the "good reason" rider in the law. Is self-defense a legitimate good reason? You've tried to bracket off the issue totally but that might not work in the future. 



> I said it wasn't a critisism though you've taken it as one, that americans seem more concerned over carrying weapons than we are. Blaming us for causing two world wars, thats just beyond the pale. As someone who's family were wiped out in the camps should I be blaming them for their horrible demise then?


 
Speaking of being in a habit of misconstruing posts, you've obviously done that here. If you bothered to read my post you'd see that it was made directly after your sweeping generalization as a way to indicate that such statements are, apart from making people feel good, not all that useful (or accurate).



> As I also said.... I give up.


 
Well, you've certainly given up on answering my question.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jun 17, 2009)

Guess the jaded British wife will just have to bash hubby's head in with a frying pan instead of stabbing him to death with the butcher knife now.


----------



## sempai little1 (Jun 17, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Guess the jaded British wife will just have to bash hubby's head in with a frying pan instead of stabbing him to death with the butcher knife now.


 
It's less messy that way any how.....Not that I would know anything about that.

Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

chrispillertkd said:


> *Well, I suppose everyone's entitled to their own opinions. *
> 
> Frankly, I think a lot of laws passed in the U.S. are frivilous so kudos to you chaps for not putting any new laws on the books in this area for so long. Of course, that doesn't mean they were well written in the first place (and from what I saw in the link you provided I'd have to say they are not, but that's just me not liking loopholes you can drive a trck through).
> 
> ...


 
*"Well, I suppose everyone's entitled to their own opinions."*

Who's laws are we discussing here?  Damn right thats our opinion mate!

Everytime we get one of these British law bashing threads everyone piles in thinking they can tell us how it should be....Elder you are so right!!

As for the children not talking I assume you have an intimate knowledge of the law here as pertains to children charged with serious crimes and how their cases are treated so I shan't bother explaining the finer points of the law. 

Our laws are different from yours, they are enacted differently and put into practice differently. I know nothing about yours so I don't comment on them. I work using our laws and we don't have a problem wih carrying out the law.


----------



## FieldDiscipline (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> FD, I think it is a demographic thing, it seems rare in the country and small towns. Diane Abbott said it's also a thing where many children grow up in single parent homes with no man for guidance on how to behave  as man, she also said it was primararily a black thing, just as well _she_ says that though! the Inner City poverty is also blamed as is the rise in underage binge drinking.



Diane Abbott [shudders] said what everyone is thinking.  Society has seen better days.  On the race aspect; each of these stories seems to be accompanied by a picture like the one here. Which is certainly fuelling that perception.  I agree, for what its worth.  



chrispillertkd said:


> Thank God we've all gotten past making sweeping generalizations. I mean, how silly would it have been if someone had said that Europeans were simply experiencing the natural result of causing two world wars and ascribing to a crypto-nihilism.



Yes, that really would be silly. 




chrispillertkd said:


> But none of this really answers my question: If this is a phenomenon limited to minors why not just outlaw minors carrying knives?



It's subjective.  Unless I am very much mistaken, carrying anything that is intended to be used as a weapon is outlawed.  As we all know only the law abiding follow that.  Is that better than letting everyone carry arms?  Don't know.  Cant see it ever being any other way here after Dunblane etc, so its academic.

That said, in effect is that not the case?  If I as an adult am carrying a knife for a legitimate purpose that I can justify then that is legal.  I think?? 



Tez3 said:


> The kids don't say they stabbed someone in self defence...they don't say anything at all.



Except for, from time to time... Rispek.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Diane Abbott [shudders] said what everyone is thinking. Society has seen better days. On the race aspect; each of these stories seems to be accompanied by a picture like the one here. Which is certainly fuelling that perception. I agree, for what its worth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Yes it's perfectly legal to carry knives, blades etc for legitimate reasons.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Yes it's perfectly legal to carry knives, blades etc for legitimate reasons.


 
Is self-defense considered a legitimate reason in England?


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

This is what  killers say and incidently they pleaded not guilty.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6194861.ece

Cases where children are charged with serious crimes are subject to separate rules, there's reporting restrictions and anonymity for the accused, as far as the public is concerned the accused never say anything....... as I said they never say anything!


Talking to the public I've found most wouldn't want Britain to be armed in the way that America is, only a few here, ex military, gun enthuisasts etc have experience of weapons so the perception is different here. I've said before though that in the country we all have shotguns which we let off with great glee!


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 17, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Guess the jaded British wife will just have to bash hubby's head in with a frying pan instead of stabbing him to death with the butcher knife now.


 
Not with the "anti-bashing" frying pan, complete with pillow attached to bottom of the pan in order to make such violence impossible (pattent pending). Sure the pillow makes cooking a bit dicey, but it's all for the greater good of a safe environment. Just keep your fire extinguisher handy.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Is self-defense considered a legitimate reason in England?


 
No, not for carrying a weapon.

If you are attacked and pick up a weapon that would be legal as long as you used reasonable force ie don't KO a guy then smash his face in, that sort of thing.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> *"Well, I suppose everyone's entitled to their own opinions."*
> 
> Who's laws are we discussing here? Damn right thats our opinion mate!


 
Kudos. 



> Everytime we get one of these British law bashing threads everyone piles in thinking they can tell us how it should be....Elder you are so right!!


 
Yes, and there is a complete absence of such threads when it comes to the U.S. 

But anyway, pointing out loopholes and asking specific questions about the laws which pertain to this topic hardly qualifies as "bashing," IMNSHO. 



> As for the children not talking I assume you have an intimate knowledge of the law here as pertains to children charged with serious crimes and how their cases are treated so I shan't bother explaining the finer points of the law.


 
No I don't which is why I brought the subject up in the first place. If you don't want to answer my questions you don't have to but you're getting downright humorous about things, now lol



> Our laws are different from yours, they are enacted differently and put into practice differently. I know nothing about yours so I don't comment on them. I work using our laws and we don't have a problem wih carrying out the law.


 
Again, kudos. I, on the other hand, don't have a first hand familiarity with your laws (the times I've visited Englad I've managed to avoid any contact with the police and hope my record continues in the future  ). But when I don't know about something I tend to ask questions about it. I also tend to comment about huge loopholes that exist when I read links that you provide that are supposed to answer said questions in the first place. 

But I'm funny like that.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> This is what killers say and incidently they pleaded not guilty.
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6194861.ece


 
404 Error

Pax,

Chris


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> celtic_crippler said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

Chris no Brit on MT has started an anti American thread or one criticising American laws. It was the OP I was meaning when I said the Brit bashing threads.
Where you see loopholes I don't so I guess I don't understand where you are coming from.
If yu have been to England you will have seen English law, we also have Scottish, Welsh and Irish laws not to mention the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. A many of our laws are older than your country so I guess they must work lol!


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

chrispillertkd said:


> Tez3 said:
> 
> 
> > Dosn't this seem to be making the law abiding citizen work from a disadvantage, or is it me?
> ...


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Chris no Brit on MT has started an anti American thread or one criticising American laws. It was the OP I was meaning when I said the Brit bashing threads.
> Where you see loopholes I don't so I guess I don't understand where you are coming from.


 
I mean the concept of "a good reason" is rather subjective, which means that it can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways. Which means it's open to abuse.



> If yu have been to England you will have seen English law, we also have Scottish, Welsh and Irish laws not to mention the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. A many of our laws are older than your country so I guess they must work lol!


 
No, it just means they are older.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> chrispillertkd said:
> 
> 
> > No why would it? As I said 'you can pick up a weapon', use your imagination! We don't have everything written down for us, we use common sense.
> ...


----------



## arnisador (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> No, not for carrying a weapon.
> 
> If you are attacked and pick up a weapon that would be legal as long as you used reasonable force ie don't KO a guy then smash his face in, that sort of thing.



I realize your country is trying to control what it sees as a widespread problem, but this reads like "Preparedness is a crime." In the U.S. with the history of using weapons one had lying around in the Revolution and the Second Amendment and settling such a large country at times when the nearest lawman might be hundreds of miles away, we tend to view the right to carry in sefl-defense very differently.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> chrispillertkd said:
> 
> 
> > No why would it? As I said 'you can pick up a weapon', use your imagination! We don't have everything written down for us, we use common sense.
> ...


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

chrispillertkd said:


> Tez3 said:
> 
> 
> > Right. Common sense. So, as opposed to being able to use a knife or even a gun when attacked by someone with those kind of weapons you can do what? Hit them with you fist? Throw your make-up compact at them? Hope that bottle you've got in the pub works better than their actual weapon?
> ...


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> chrispillertkd said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps we could have a thread covering all the weapons you can find just around you?
> ...


----------



## arnisador (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> My chief instructor does door work and has never had problems disarming knife carriers threatening him



:uhohh:


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

I should point out that if you actually kill someone while defending yourself as long as that's reasonable force there's no problem under the law. The CPS takes into account factors such as fear, adrenaline, fear for your family friends etc and what action you took. It basically needs to be reassured that you didn't set out to murder someone coldbloodedly ie invite an enemy round to your house bash his head in and then claim self defence lol.

the perception of crime here is greater than the actual crime, the figures are the lowest ever funnily enough. However the media and the internet highlight every single case and it gets blown out of proportion by the 'talking heads' The majority of people her never need to carry a weapon and the majority will go their whole lives without ever seeing a violent crime.

Laws don't get old here unless they work.


----------



## Brian King (Jun 17, 2009)

*FieldDiscipline wrote and gave this link about a murder*



> Diane Abbott [shudders] said what everyone is thinking. Society has seen better days. On the race aspect; each of these stories seems to be accompanied by a picture like the one here. 


 
It is an interesting story and very telling in the details in my opinion.
&#12288;
&#12288;



> Michael Alleyne, 18, Juress Kika, 19, and Jade Braithwaite, 20, all from London, were all ordered to serve a minimum of 19 years in prison.


 
The youths involved with the murder. I notice the age of the youths, The same things go on over here. The age of youths in Florida for instance that are staying on parents health insurance (certain parts of Florida are heavily populated by retirees) has been raised to thirty years old and still classified as minors. The age when demanding personal responsibility is rising and rising while at the same time our youths are being exposed to adult sexual norms at a younger and younger age. We are as a society telling little girls and boys to be adult like in expressions of sexuality at preteen ages while at the same time telling young adults it is ok to be a worthless piece of refuge as it is not their fault and they are special. 

I wonder Tez3 out of the nineteen murders you cited above thread. What was the ages of the youths murdered and if the cases were solved what were the ages of those convicted of the crimes. Out of curiosity how many of the murderers were above the age of 16?
&#12288;
&#12288;



> The defendants had admitted punching him but each denied being responsible for stabbing Ben,


 
They all admit to being a part of the murder but not being the one that did the stabbing, and apparently stuck to their stories. One of the benefits of having tough prison countenancing guidelines is that often violent offenders will bargain to try to avoid them. It is a good tool when you have multiple suspects. 
&#12288;
&#12288;


> After the verdicts, it emerged Kika had been on the run from police following a robbery in which a man was stabbed nine days before Ben's death. 
> &#12288;
> Alleyne was being supervised by the local youth offending team as part of an 18-month detention and training order for drug dealing.
> 
> He had been released three months earlier after serving half the sentence in a detention centre. 


 
So at least in this case blaming the knife, the tool of the murder, seems like the very easy way of pointing the blame towards an inanimate object, turning the inanimate object into something evil rather than looking at the society that produced these youths that committed the crime. Could higher and stricter sentencing have saved the young man from being stabbed eleven times? At least one of the murderers would not have been there had he still been serving his time, and according to the link you just provided up thread, he called his two buddies to the scene to have his back. I wonder what the record of the other two youths involved look like. If they knew that they would get life in prison (or worse the death penalty) would they have been so willing to use violence? 

I wonder of the opinion of those living over there, is perhaps the violence and the acceptance and excusing of the violence perhaps as much if not more to blame than the tool used to accomplish the violence? We are often having this ongoing debate over here in the States. Europe is very often held up as an example as how to do it 'right', so I find these threads and your thoughts and opinions educational. 

Regarding the non-pointy knife as has been stated above thread, nothing new and it can certainly still penetrate beef or pork, just might take a little more force. Those youths willing to beat down another youth and stab him eleven times certainly displayed that they had the will and the means to use such force. The designer and the manufacturers and the media covering this blade are trying to make money off of the fearful who have submitted themseles to obvious fear mongering and manipulation. Questionable morals but hardly illegal and rather clever. 

Regarding knife laws, if 'good kids' feel that they need to have a knife on them for protection from 'armed bad 20 year old children' I think that it points out that they think that having a knife on them, risking breaking the law, makes more since than running for the auto and the cricket bat under the seat. This decision to risk breaking the law in order to give them the means of defense is telling.

Regarding knife violence as violence is key to easing the problem over there in my opinion. The violence is a symptom. Whether you blame the youths lack of respect for the laws of the society on pent up frustrations, on lack of opportunity/education, slap on the wrist justice systems, poverty, lack of respect for the lives and property of others, ease of acquiring weapons, drug use or over crowding, they are different than we are cultural excuses, all the above in my opinion are still symptoms of an obvious overlying problem. When we pimp out or sons and daughters, when our children kill merely for the sake of killing, when we as adults turn a blind eye to our own responsibilities and our lack of courage there is a sickness and a weakness highlighted. Having the courage to face that will tell a societies ability for long term survival.

Regards
Brian King


----------



## CoryKS (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Laws don't get old here unless they work.


 
I wish we could say that. When our laws don't work, we're expected to throw more money at them until they do.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> chrispillertkd said:
> 
> 
> > You see, you are used to written laws, we are more creative and of course it's open to interpretation but no one defending themselves legitimately has been done here.
> ...


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

Chris, I don't what you've been reading about our countries but we actually have very little need to be armed. It's all about perception.

Like abortion violent crime brings emotion to the discussion but looked at objectively we don't have such a huge problem as first appears. If I say well 20 kids were murdered by knife attacks in such and such city in one year people will be horrified but loooked at coldly out of a population of a couple of million people 20 isn't very many but what politician or police officer is going to point that out? It sounds cold blooded. Then point out that half of those deaths were drug related and a quarter gang related. It sounds now as if that city has a drug problem and gangs running wild everywhere.
Then look at it historically and you will find our country has never been so peaceful, orderly and have such low crime figures! It's true though, crime is actually at the lowest it's ever been and that includes the times when people were armed.
So whats going on? firstly we do have a problem with a section of youth in this country. The 'glamour' of the American gang scene as seen on films and in music appeals to many young teenagers, we also have homegrown gangs (the soccer 'firms') and the Jamaican ones. Alcohol has been a problem here for centruries, have a look at Hogarths pictures. The big companies have been pushing 'alcopops' onto the market aggressively targetting young people. Pubs and clubs have 'happy hours' and women drink free policies. We've always had a culture of 'get as many drinks down your neck as fast as you can' here. You get drunk, fight, have a curry, throw up, stagger home and that was a grand night! that applies to men and women alike.

Then theres drugs, kids see drug dealers on their patch with new cars, bling and money, they see themselves as unable or unwilling toto get a job and work for money, dealing is so much easier. Maggie Thatcher's government pushed the 'greed is good' message so hard that it's all the kids think about.

The media and the politicians go hand in hand, they all have an agenda they want to push. Murders of children by children make good news headlines so when they happen they are plastered everywhere. Yes they are a huge tragedy, a problem we really need to sort but the politiians use each new murder as something to berate the government with without actually offering any constructive ideas. Each party promises that if the get in crime will fall, an easy promise to make.

There is a big problem with our children killing each other but an all parties committee needs to look at this to find the best ways of dealing with it, to drop all the politics and really look into how to stop this rot. It's not as widespread as many would have us think nor are young people all violent but ther is a problem

It's a mistake I think for Americans who support gun control to point to Europe as being the ideal. We don't share the same history or the same cultural interest or beliefs. Sure many Americans started as Europeans but they quickly and rightly became American and adopted American customs. Another things is that America is enormous with a huge population comapred to the UK and other European countries, always easier to contain crime in a smaller place. some of your cities are bigger than some of Europe's countries lol! 

Chris I don't know why you think I'm being amusing when I say no one has been done for defending themselves here as they haven't whatever you seem to think. And why do you think my country denies me the right to bear arms when I can look over my shoulder at my gun cabinet full of weapons? why do you assume that everyone here would want to be armed or in actual fact there is a big need to be armed. Like abortion it's not an issue here, if it were I'm sure there'd be an uproar, the Great British public is never backwards in coming forwards with what it wants. If this country wanted to be armed, it would be, simple as that.
We had a big public campaign recently for Gurkhas rights, the government was forced to change its mind and the law. If British people as a whole wanted to be armed they would say so. Don't make the mistake of thinking we are like you, we barely speak the same language! You may have visited here but you know little about us frankly! We may be 'cousins' but we are foreign cousins!

Oh and we do self defen*c*e lol!


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

I see the anonymous neg rep person is back. Ok so you disagree with me, have the guts to at least sign your name or how about posting up where you think I go so wrong. Spineless and pointless.


----------



## Deaf Smith (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3,

What I fear is going to happen in the U.K. is, if the means to defend oneself are banned (like knives and such) then that will include the martial arts.

After all, if it's so bad to carry a knife, then being an expert with ones hands and feet does put most other 'subjects' at a disadvantage.

And it's not like it hasn't happened before. Many a nation has banned weapons and training to keep the population under 'control'.

Deaf


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 18, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Tez3,
> 
> What I fear is going to happen in the U.K. is, if the means to defend oneself are banned (like knives and such) then that will include the martial arts.
> 
> ...


 

Carrying a knife specifically as a weapon is banned not the carrying of knives as such. I realise thats probably a rather legalistic answer but it works here. Everyone was in a panic when 'samurai' swords were banned but the martial artists and the collectors haven't been bothered by this as they've foundout, you can still buy the proper swords you want you just can't buy the cheap £25 sets anymore which were flooding the market and causing the problems.

The British people may look like we are docile sometimes but trust me we're not, at the moment MPs are busy resigning and those who aren't are panicking like hell over their expenses befcause we've said enough and they are having to quit. In the end the government knows who's in charge lol and thats us!


----------



## Marginal (Jun 18, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Yes! This will stop CRIME! No more temptation to stick your loved one with the all-so-available kitchen knife. We all know the easily available kitchen knife is the major cause of crime! The temptation to rid yourselves of those near you is so great you cannot control your urges. So this must be stopped!


Where's your point?


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jun 18, 2009)

Big Don said:


> I can't wait for the first news report of some poor bastard beaten to death with a ladle.



:lfao:

Excuse me, do you have a CCW license for that spoon?

Just kidding of course. As Tez says, this is not a gov initiative.


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jun 18, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> I actually agree with one of the comments...  It'd be a good tool for teaching cooking to kids and maybe even in school home economics classes.



Call me silly, but I teach my 4 year old to use a real knife in the kitchen to cut the ends of beans, and cut carrots, etc. She only uses it under our supervision, but I think it is important that she never gets the notion that knives can somehow be safe. They aren't.


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jun 18, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> What's being banned here is the *carrying* of knives and bladed weapons not the ownership of them. there is absolutely no need to go out to the pub carrying a knife nor go to a nightclub with one. There's no reason to walk around the streets with a blade at all.



While there is no pressing need per se, I always carry a small spyderco delica or swiss army knife. A pocket knife is just a very convenient thing to carry around for opening boxes, removing splinters, removing a staple, opening wraps, cutting a piece of rope, removing thread from clothes, ....

And if you look at the statistics, it's not the small pocket knives that are used in the typical stabbings. It's true that there are no pressing reasons to carry a folding knife, but it's also true that they are no more dangerous than a sharpened pencil, so there is also not real reason -not- to carry them.

EDIT: BTW I would point out that I do NOT carry my folder for self defense. To me it's just a very convenient multi purpose tool.


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jun 18, 2009)

thardey said:


> I don't get what the big deal is . . .
> The "stabless" knife has been around for generations -- It's called a "straight razor."
> And we all know how ineffective those are for use in crime, particularly "crimes of passion."



Now this is a topic I have experience with  (straights, not crime) I have been using and restoring straights for many years.
Straights are good for only 2 things apart from shaving obvisouly)

- scaring someone (they look mean)
- scarring / killing someone when they are out or unawares.

They pivot like a folder, but there is no catch to keep them open. They'll flip around in your hand and cut you very bad.
The edge breaks off as soon as they hit anything solid (except for old style wedges).
The scales are flimsy and likely to crack if you exert force on them.

As a weapon, they are about the most ****** things you can think off. They are at least as dangerous to the wielder as to the one being attacked.

Sure, in a crime of passion you can cut up someone really bad with it. After all, it has an edge. But you could do the same with a pair of scissors, or a breadknife, or an icepick, or...


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 18, 2009)

Ladle crime is very serious and one shouldn't make light of it, a ladle full of hot soup in your lap isn't funny :lfao:


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 18, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Now this is a topic I have experience with  (straights, not crime) I have been using and restoring straights for many years.
> Straights are good for only 2 things apart from shaving obvisouly)
> 
> - scaring someone (they look mean)
> ...


 

You know I haven't see a cutthroat razor for years, do people still use them for shaving? they used to be popular weapons in Glasgow years ago and a slash across the mouth was known as the Glasgow smile ( as opposed to the Glasgow kiss - a headbutt)

One weapon that is often used not by kids but by professional criminals is wooden craft knives, turns out they are really nasty, another thing is sticking two Stanley knife blades to  a piece of wood etc close together so when it slahes across a face it leaves two cuts quite close together which makes it hard for medics to stitch or close so leaving a scar.
Thieves here don't mug at knife point instead they walk past stabbing people in the backside then turning and stealing wallets etc, it's a non fatal wound in an embarrassing place so they bank on the victim not reporting it which often they won't.

Knives has always been more popular than guns here even when guns were more easily available.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jun 18, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> What the people on here don't seem to understand thats IT'S NOT A GOVERNMENT INITIATIVE!!. It's a manufacturer who wants to make some money that has brought this out (thought that was an American ideal btw?) he submitted it for testing to a govenment lab...as many others do.. and they said yeah it does what you said it does or doesn't if you want to look at it like that.
> Only the manufacturer who is aiming to sell loads is plugging this as an anti crime knife nobody here is stupid to enough to think selling these will stop crime only many of you seem to be insulting enough to think we are really thinking this will save lives. Get real people....this is a man out to make money,not a government trying to stop crime, just because the research place says it's 'fit for purpose' as are a lot of other things don't go mistaking a money making enterprise with the governments initiatives on crime.
> 
> As for the doctors that want to ban knives, they also want to ban boxing, MMA and martial arts so guess how much notice we take of them?


 Come on, if the government hadn't invented the hysteria, there would be no 'Knife Crisis' hysteria vacuum to fill.  It's not one man, it's a cultural phenomenon that one man is seeking to make a profit off of.  It's your country, do with it as you like........but many folks feel free to ridicule the US and tell us what is wrong with our country.......that arrow points both ways!


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jun 18, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You know I haven't see a cutthroat razor for years, do people still use them for shaving? they used to be popular weapons in Glasgow years ago and a slash across the mouth was known as the Glasgow smile ( as opposed to the Glasgow kiss - a headbutt)



Yup we still do. 

I am a supermod / tech admin at www.straightrazorplace.com , the oldest resource for straight razor shavers on the internet.

Our membership is about the same as MT, and growing steadily.
I can say truthfully that no shaving cartridge or electric razor has touched my face for almost 3 years. I have been using a straight for 18 years now. I've been restoring antique blades for 3 years, and the oldest blade in my rotation is 200 years old.

The glassgow smile was only used if the victim was totally unawares or already subdued (chokehold, unconcious, etc). Trust me: you really don't want to swing your hands around for an actual fight when holding a razor.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 18, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Come on, if the government hadn't invented the hysteria, there would be no 'Knife Crisis' hysteria vacuum to fill. It's not one man, it's a cultural phenomenon that one man is seeking to make a profit off of. It's your country, do with it as you like........but many folks feel free to ridicule the US and tell us what is wrong with our country.......that arrow points both ways!


 
Well, aim your post at those who ridicule your country then not me. I haven't ridiculed the US or suggested what they should do. The most I said is that the anti gun lobby shouldn't use the UK and Europe as examples as we are different cultures and systems, this was in answer to a poster who explained that we were being used as such. You don't even know what my views are on guns or weapons, and I actually have no opinion on the US and whether it's citizens should be armed or not, not my business.

I'd say it wasn't the government who invented the knife crisis if thats what we have rather the media and the Tory media at that. This has been going on a long time now and it's only posts here criticising us that make me comment on some of the absurd views people have of the situation.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jun 18, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'd say it wasn't the government who invented the knife crisis if thats what we have rather the media and the Tory media at that. This has been going on a long time now and it's only posts here criticising us that make me comment on some of the absurd views people have of the situation.



It's a cultural issue.......otherwise there would be no niche to fill.

I feel free to commentate on absurdity wherever I see it......that knows no national boundaries.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 18, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Yup we still do.
> 
> I am a supermod / tech admin at www.straightrazorplace.com , the oldest resource for straight razor shavers on the internet.
> 
> ...


 

Much as I love blades I can't see me using a razor for it's orignal purpose lol! Do men use them because they are superior to all the modern shavers then?


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 18, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> It's a cultural issue.......otherwise there would be no niche to fill.
> 
> I feel free to commentate on absurdity wherever I see it......that knows no national boundaries.


 
But you're not keen if others do it of your country?


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jun 18, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Carrying a knife specifically as a weapon is banned not the carrying of knives as such. I realise thats probably a rather legalistic answer but it works here. Everyone was in a panic when 'samurai' swords were banned but the martial artists and the collectors haven't been bothered by this as they've foundout, you can still buy the proper swords you want you just can't buy the cheap £25 sets anymore which were flooding the market and causing the problems.
> 
> The British people may look like we are docile sometimes but trust me we're not, at the moment MPs are busy resigning and those who aren't are panicking like hell over their expenses befcause we've said enough and they are having to quit. In the end the government knows who's in charge lol and thats us!


 
So...just tell the "bobby" that it's your nail-cleaning, fish-gutting, all-purpose-except-specifically-as-a-weapon-knife and you're all good. Right? LOL


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jun 18, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Much as I love blades I can't see me using a razor for it's orignal purpose lol! Do men use them because they are superior to all the modern shavers then?



Well the number of people using is still a teeny tiny minority of all people, but it is going through a revival. To give you a couple of basics advantages / disadvantages:

- using one is fun and cool (imo)
- if you use antiques, you can use blades that have been passed down through the ages. I find the historical connection interesting.
- it is no more dangerous than using a cartridge, but you have to focus.
- it can be much easier on the skin. Instead of grating your skin with a 5 blade cartridge, it's just 1 blade. People with sensitive skin might really benefit from using a straight.
- there is an initial investment to make, and a significant learning curve in shaving and maintenance. But after that there are no more expenses. With the price of cartridge blades, you break even pretty quickly if you don't fall for the various acquisition disorders.
- it is better for the environment because all those spent cartridges have to go somewhere, and there is a significant amount of trace metal in those blades.
- shaving with a straight is more time consuming than shaving with cartridges or electrics.

The majority of men will never use a straight because they are convinced that modern == better, whereas 'better' is apoint of view. Yes, you can shave faster and with less of a learning curve with one of those gillette fusion thingies. And you can do so in the shower and without paying attention. But it's also much more expensive in the long run, less gentle on the skin, and (imo) much less fun.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 18, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> So...just tell the "bobby" that it's your nail-cleaning, fish-gutting, all-purpose-except-specifically-as-a-weapon-knife and you're all good. Right? LOL


 
We don't stop people who are going about their business peacefully and search them. You will have to have done something suspicious to get a copper to search you. People presume that we stop and search people at random we don't. If you have a reason for carrying a knife there's no problem...unless there's a body with a knife stuck in it at your feet. Most countries police will ask you a few questions then!


Whatever you think, British people aren't known to be hysterical, they are actually very stoical, the papers may try to whip a frenzy but people here don't tend to get exited, we leave that to our cousins lol! We are all very concerned about the future of the countries children though not just the knife stuff but alcohol has long been an issue here as has violence really, anyone heard about the football 'firms'?


----------



## Brian King (Jun 18, 2009)

> "the papers may try to whip a frenzy but people here don't tend to get exited, we leave that to our cousins lol! "


 
? huh, which cousins? I am assuming that is a dig at the U.S.? It is funny, you French have a sense of humor after all.

Brian


----------



## Deaf Smith (Jun 18, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> We don't stop people who are going about their business peacefully and search them. You will have to have done something suspicious to get a copper to search you. People presume that we stop and search people at random we don't.


 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/17/stop-search-terror-law-met

"Thousands of people are being stopped and searched by the police under their counter-&shy;terrorism powers &#8211; simply to &shy;provide a racial balance in official statistics, the government&#8217;s official anti-terror law watchdog has revealed."

Deaf


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 19, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/17/stop-search-terror-law-met
> 
> "Thousands of people are being stopped and searched by the police under their counter-&shy;terrorism powers  simply to &shy;provide a racial balance in official statistics, the governments official anti-terror law watchdog has revealed."
> 
> Deaf


Ah the Guardian, thousands across a country of millions it should add. Each stop takes well over an hour to complete the paper work it requires so much manpower it isn't used much, mostly in the cities. After all we did have a bit of a bombing a little while ago.
The Guardian is anti government (any) and anti establishment, it qualifies as liberal under the American description.

Brian, it wasn't a dig at all at America, more a fond observaton, Americans are more enthuisatic than us for many things and it's more to our detriment that we are maybe more jaded and cynical.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 19, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Chris, I don't what you've been reading about our countries but we actually have very little need to be armed. It's all about perception.


 
Whether you have very little need to exercise one of your rights is irrelevant. I just never cared for government infringing on my rights. YMMV, of course.



> Like abortion violent crime brings emotion to the discussion but looked at objectively we don't have such a huge problem as first appears. If I say well 20 kids were murdered by knife attacks in such and such city in one year people will be horrified but loooked at coldly out of a population of a couple of million people 20 isn't very many but what politician or police officer is going to point that out? It sounds cold blooded. Then point out that half of those deaths were drug related and a quarter gang related. It sounds now as if that city has a drug problem and gangs running wild everywhere.
> Then look at it historically and you will find our country has never been so peaceful, orderly and have such low crime figures! It's true though, crime is actually at the lowest it's ever been and that includes the times when people were armed.
> So whats going on? firstly we do have a problem with a section of youth in this country. The 'glamour' of the American gang scene as seen on films and in music appeals to many young teenagers, we also have homegrown gangs (the soccer 'firms') and the Jamaican ones. Alcohol has been a problem here for centruries, have a look at Hogarths pictures. The big companies have been pushing 'alcopops' onto the market aggressively targetting young people. Pubs and clubs have 'happy hours' and women drink free policies. We've always had a culture of 'get as many drinks down your neck as fast as you can' here. You get drunk, fight, have a curry, throw up, stagger home and that was a grand night! that applies to men and women alike.
> 
> ...


 
This is all interesting but, I think, not really germane to what I was saying.



> It's a mistake I think for Americans who support gun control to point to Europe as being the ideal. We don't share the same history or the same cultural interest or beliefs. Sure many Americans started as Europeans but they quickly and rightly became American and adopted American customs. Another things is that America is enormous with a huge population comapred to the UK and other European countries, always easier to contain crime in a smaller place. some of your cities are bigger than some of Europe's countries lol!


 
It's not really a matter of the ease of containing crime. Heck, I can think of at least a couple of methods of containing nearly all violent crime. But I'd never suggest implementing them. 



> Chris I don't know why you think I'm being amusing when I say no one has been done for defending themselves here as they haven't whatever you seem to think. And why do you think my country denies me the right to bear arms when I can look over my shoulder at my gun cabinet full of weapons?


 
Because of the posts you've made in this thread.  



> why do you assume that everyone here would want to be armed or in actual fact there is a big need to be armed.


 
I've made no such assumption.  



> Like abortion it's not an issue here,


 
No offense, but this statement is simply an illustration that you might not have all the information on the aboriton issue in the U.K. And, if that's the case, you might not be correct about the issue at hand, either.  



> if it were I'm sure there'd be an uproar, the Great British public is never backwards in coming forwards with what it wants. If this country wanted to be armed, it would be, simple as that.


 
Hey, in the absence of any sort of actual data about this assertion I can only say, meh. But, in any event, I'm not really sure what you say here directly impacts anything I have said in this thread.



> We had a big public campaign recently for Gurkhas rights, the government was forced to change its mind and the law.


 
The Gurkhas are awesome.  



> If British people as a whole wanted to be armed they would say so. Don't make the mistake of thinking we are like you, we barely speak the same language! You may have visited here but you know little about us frankly! We may be 'cousins' but we are foreign cousins!


 
Oh, I have had enough experience in England and with people from the U.K. to know that there are many differences between them and Americans. But, again, I'm not really interested on a subjective desire to be armed.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 19, 2009)

chrispillertkd said:


> Whether you have very little need to exercise one of your rights is irrelevant. I just never cared for government infringing on my rights. YMMV, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Well we'll just agree that you think I'm a liar and we'll have done with it shall we. Please don't bother replying as I have now put you on ignore as I find your posts quite insulting in the main.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 19, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Well we'll just agree that you think I'm a liar and we'll have done with it shall we.


 
No, we shall not agree to that at all. No where have I even implied that's what I think about you. If I did, I'd simply tell you that's what I thought.



> Please don't bother replying as I have now put you on ignore as I find your posts quite insulting in the main.


 
Ah, well in lieu of actually reading my posts I suppose you could do this. I will say, however, that you've obviously not read the majority of my posts. 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## BLACK LION (Jun 19, 2009)

Its all about using the powers that "terrorism" provides to further strip us from our liberties...we essentially give them away for the sake of the perception of security...     Blow up a few trains and buses and we will hand over thier knives and guns in exchange for anti terror brigades, hightened security, checkpoints, unlawful search and seizure, raids, camps,  kidnapping, torture etc all under the guise of anti-terrorism security.     Its not about security.  Its about us being mindless, powerless and helpless. Because we think thats what is good for us. The more afraid of terror the people are...the more they can be molded and controlled.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 19, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> Its all about using the powers that "terrorism" provides to further strip us from our liberties...we essentially give them away for the sake of the perception of security... Blow up a few trains and buses and we will hand over thier knives and guns in exchange for anti terror brigades, hightened security, checkpoints, unlawful search and seizure, raids, camps, kidnapping, torture etc all under the guise of anti-terrorism security. Its not about security. Its about us being mindless, powerless and helpless. Because we think thats what is good for us. The more afraid of terror the people are...the more they can be molded and controlled.


 

You can think it's that of course, it's clear that my explaining over and over again is pointless. The knife laws have been here for *fifty years*, the gun laws longer, it has nothing to do with terror at all in my country in which I am a serving police officer and obviously whatever I say about the law and how it's interpreted by police officers is worth nothing.


----------



## FieldDiscipline (Jun 19, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> Its all about using the powers that "terrorism" provides to further strip us from our liberties...we essentially give them away for the sake of the perception of security...     Blow up a few trains and buses and we will hand over thier knives and guns in exchange for anti terror brigades, hightened security, checkpoints, unlawful search and seizure, raids, camps,  kidnapping, torture etc all under the guise of anti-terrorism security.     Its not about security.  Its about us being mindless, powerless and helpless. Because we think thats what is good for us. The more afraid of terror the people are...the more they can be molded and controlled.



This knife crime problem is nothing to do with terrorism.  Neither is the fact that weapons are forbidden.

With a few snips though, I agree...



> using the powers that "terrorism" provides to further strip us from our liberties...we essentially give them away for the sake of the perception of security...     Blow up a few trains and buses and its hightened security, checkpoints, unlawful search and seizure,  kidnapping, *CCTV* etc all under the guise of anti-terrorism security.     Its not about security.  Its about us being mindless, powerless and helpless. Because we think thats what is good for us. The more afraid of terror the people are...the more they can be molded and controlled



It is my belief that this government in particular thinks just that.  It's even got me thinking civil liberties, and I never really thought much about it in the past.  I think this hideous, controlling govt has worked hard to scare people into it, there was none of this in the 1990s, and we sure had reason to be afraid then.


----------



## FieldDiscipline (Jun 19, 2009)

Now.... where is my tinfoil hat?


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jun 19, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> But you're not keen if others do it of your country?


 Not if I disagree with them.....then they're wrong.

However, if you're making fun of similar behavior in New York or the People's Republic of California, then i'm in complete agreement........feel free to ridicule the shrinking violet 'Big Brother' loving members of my society as much as I ridicule those in yours.......my distaste for those types knows NO national boundaries......hope that clarifies things.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jun 19, 2009)

Is it illegal to carry a chain? 
A brick? 
A stick? 

...where do you draw the line? And based on what logic?


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 20, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Is it illegal to carry a chain?
> A brick?
> A stick?
> 
> ...where do you draw the line? And based on what logic?


 

No it's not illegal to carry a brick, or a chain or a stick.....
As for drawing the line, try this
http://www.policecouldyou.co.uk/officers/judgement.html

This government is falling apart at the seams, it won't last much longer and they we may get a worse one or the BNP.


----------



## BLACK LION (Jun 20, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You can think it's that of course, it's clear that my explaining over and over again is pointless. The knife laws have been here for *fifty years*, the gun laws longer, it has nothing to do with terror at all in my country in which I am a serving police officer and obviously whatever I say about the law and how it's interpreted by police officers is worth nothing.


 
Hold on.... I specifically stated my rant was a bit off topic...  It had nothing to do with your knife laws or law enforcement policy which I know nothing about.   What you are saying makes sense... I hope that what I am saying makes sense on a different scale.    Thanks


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 20, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> Hold on.... I specifically stated my rant was a bit off topic... It had nothing to do with your knife laws or law enforcement policy which I know nothing about. What you are saying makes sense... I hope that what I am saying makes sense on a different scale. Thanks


 


Now don't you go spoiling this thread with good sense and reasonable posts.......:lol:


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jun 22, 2009)

I don't think someone mentioned it so far, but the only people who would buy these things are the kind of people who would not use their kitchen knives to stab someone in the first place. So in that regard they won't make much of a dent in knife crime.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi (Jun 22, 2009)

This is crazy I mean when I was worked in the jail I used to find shanks made from plastic spoons and toothbrushes that they sharpened on the concrete. They can make a safety knife all they want but that won't stop anyone from trying to kill someone if their mental state is at that level.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2009)

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> This is crazy I mean when I was worked in the jail I used to find shanks made from plastic spoons and toothbrushes that they sharpened on the concrete. They can make a safety knife all they want but that won't stop anyone from trying to kill someone if their mental state is at that level.


 
To be honest I don't think the guy is trying to stop murders, he's trying to make money off worried parents.


----------



## thardey (Jun 24, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Much as I love blades I can't see me using a razor for it's orignal purpose lol! Do men use them because they are superior to all the modern shavers then?


 

In short, yup!

I can get the same shave as the modern razors in the same amount of time, but I rarely do -- I usually take the extra time to do it right and shave closer that even my old fashioned safety razor. And it's a whole lot cheaper, considering that I'll probably pass my razor on to my son.

For shaving anything other than a face, though, I would go modern.


But they do make lousy weapons -- that was my "point." (or lack of) :rofl:

But even then, it's the "image" of a straight razor that carries the modern imagination, not it's actual use.


----------



## BLACK LION (Jun 24, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Now don't you go spoiling this thread with good sense and reasonable posts.......:lol:


 
touche...   hahahaahahahahahaa


----------



## theletch1 (Jun 26, 2009)

Attention all users:

This thread had drifted a great deal from the original topic in the last 8 or 10 posts.  Those posts were interesting, informative and most importantly, friendly discussion of the differences in self defense laws in the US and UK.  To avoid further drift and to allow the great discussion to continue those posts were moved to a new thread which may be found here.  I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.


----------



## chinto (Jun 30, 2009)

hmm the term ludicrous and more comes to mind.. only some government bureaucrat would come up with something that stupid i hope!! 

hell you can stab some one with a fork !!  let alone other things!!!


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 30, 2009)

chinto said:


> hmm the term ludicrous and more comes to mind.. only some government bureaucrat would come up with something that stupid i hope!!
> 
> hell you can stab some one with a fork !! let alone other things!!!


 
No it wasn't a government bureaucrat who thought it up, it was a guy looking to make some money, a manufacturer.


----------

