# Proper elbow alignment=more power?



## Sapper6 (Mar 21, 2006)

this could very well fall under any MA category on the boards but i decided instead to ask here.

take a look a look at the linked article tell me what you think.  i found the article after a discussion i had about generating increased power in your punch, thus transferring more force into your attacker.  my long standing belief is that, it's not hitting to the target, but rather, hitting through your target.  and that goes for just about any strike or kick.  the whole elbow thing makes sense.  anyhoo...

also, would like to know how many of you implement the vertical fist punch into your techniques?  and why?

i use the vertical punch quite a bit, and actually prefer it over the "karate style" horizontal punch.  at first i thought it just depended on the target you are striking.  i don't feel that is all that pertinent now.

thoughts?

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=166http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=166


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 22, 2006)

that seems like the real deal.  in a similar vein, my kickboxing coach use to want our elbows pointing nearly to the ceiling if we threw an overhand right.

in terms of vertical vs. horizontal punch, i hardly ever throw a punch anymore if i can help it.  i find open-hand strikes and elbows much better.


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## thetruth (Mar 22, 2006)

It's pretty spot on.  I don't know if any style can take credit for it but I studied Ryukyu Kempo and that is how we were taught to punch.  It works really well and is a damn side more effective than the full rotation on the punch so the fist is parallel to the ground that most 'traditional' styles teach.


Cheers
Sam


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## kenposikh (Mar 22, 2006)

This is how the punch is taught in our schools and there can be a simple test done to test the power you have with the punch and here it is let me know how you get on.

With your right fist at the chambered position right neutral or horse stance doesn't matter hold onto your bicep as tightly as possible with your other hand and feel the tension in there now slowly execute your punch and feel the increase in tension to the point where your fist is just past hte vertical position ( what I would call the diamond shape) feel how tight the muscle is working to strengthen your arm, now keep the rotation going and feel the bicep just give up.

Results and thoughts please


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## kenpoworks (Mar 22, 2006)

kenposikh said:
			
		

> This is how the punch is taught in our schools and there can be a simple test done to test the power you have with the punch and here it is let me know how you get on.
> 
> With your right fist at the chambered position right neutral or horse stance doesn't matter hold onto your bicep as tightly as possible with your other hand and feel the tension in there now slowly execute your punch and feel the increase in tension to the point where your fist is just past hte vertical position ( what I would call the diamond shape) feel how tight the muscle is working to strengthen your arm, now keep the rotation going and feel the bicep just give up.
> 
> Results and thoughts please


 
YEP,
I agree with all that, for linear punching and like the use of "diamond shape".
I use full rotation for my upper cuts and hooks to acheive correct alignment(wrist-elbow-shoulder), structural reinforcement (shoulder-torso).
As a side thought I still find the use of full and counter rotation useful when teaching wrist release and basic arm bars.
Nice descrition of structure Amrik.
Rich


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## kenposikh (Mar 22, 2006)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> YEP,
> I agree with all that, for linear punching and like the use of "diamond shape".
> I use full rotation for my upper cuts and hooks to acheive correct alignment(wrist-elbow-shoulder), structural reinforcement (shoulder-torso).
> As a side thought I still find the use of full and counter rotation useful when teaching wrist release and basic arm bars.
> ...


 
Thanks Rich but I think my Instructor and Doc furnished me with the idea, and I just had to share 

As regards the uppercuts I would agree with you on that.

Cheers

Amrik


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## kenpoworks (Mar 22, 2006)

OK Amrik, Doc is an "answer man" which has helped us all and thanks for not pointing out my obvious (on the re-read) spelling mistakes.
See You in Holland
W.R.
Rich


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## Doc (Mar 26, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> this could very well fall under any MA category on the boards but i decided instead to ask here.
> 
> take a look a look at the linked article tell me what you think.  i found the article after a discussion i had about generating increased power in your punch, thus transferring more force into your attacker.  my long standing belief is that, it's not hitting to the target, but rather, hitting through your target.  and that goes for just about any strike or kick.  the whole elbow thing makes sense.  anyhoo...
> 
> ...


Interesting article sir but, although the experiment makes a valid point, it is a bit misleading. 

First the so-called 'horizontal punch' as executed is not really a punch. In actuality, it is the 'extension of a punch' or 'follow through' to that 'diamond hand' position mentioned by my mates across the pond. The hand only rotates in this manner as a 'follow through' to the punch and depending upon application, must be retrieved immediately.

Secondly, the experiment has the supposed punch extended in the middle height zone. This extended arm position is 'out of design' at that height and will indeed collaspe. Every physical movement is height, width, and depth sensitive. Had the presenter stood on a chair and the hand executed at the punchers shoulder level, he would not have had the same success. At the correct level, angle, and extension, this 'punch position' is actually a 'Brace.'

Try this experiment for yourself. I'll wait.

Meanwhile a bit of info. A true horizonal punch actually travels 'parallel' to the torso. Chew on that while you execute the experiment.


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## DavidCC (Mar 30, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Had the presenter stood on a chair and the hand executed at the punchers shoulder level,


 
Not sure I see what that means... does that mean, execute the punch at a downward angle, not parallel to the ground?  So instead of standing ona  chair and punching to the shoulder, would that be the same orientation as punching to the belly-button?  

That's what I've tried, and it seems that the elbow-down punch at solar-plexus height is stronger than the elbow-out as described in the article, but the elbow-down punch executed to a lower target is indeed easily collapsible.  however the elbow-out position becomes strong.  Is that what you mean by it is a brace?


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## Doc (Mar 30, 2006)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> Not sure I see what that means... does that mean, execute the punch at a downward angle, not parallel to the ground?


No, what I meant was if the punch is directed straight forward in line with the shoulder side of execution, and someone were to stand on a chair to get their body up high enough to perform the experiment with the hand at the proper height, than it would not collaspe.

As a middle so-called 'punch' it is not effective, therefore its collapse under the experiment would not be unusual. All phyical movement is height, width, and or depth sensitive.


> That's what I've tried, and it seems that the elbow-down punch at solar-plexus height is stronger than the elbow-out as described in the article, but the elbow-down punch executed to a lower target is indeed easily collapsible.


The trick is to remember that position is NOT a punch, but is in reality an already expended punch, and when placed at the proper height, and/or width, it's depth becomes a bracing angle incapable of collapsing. Therefore it functions as a brace and not a punch when correctly applied and executed. It can also be used as a brace downward but the angle must equal or exceed a minimum of 45-degrees.

Thanks for taking the time to conduct the experiment, and present feedback for discussion.


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## kamishinkan (Mar 30, 2006)

In our art, the use of the punch is dependant heavily on distance. We usually use the "diamond shape" (I have never heard it called that though, I like it). On the twisting motion of the frontal thrust it you are in what we would label 1st range (grabbing/elbows/knees/short strikes) the strike would be in the verticle position. Extend the distance to what we label 2nd range and the hand rolls over slightly more to the "diamond shape", extend the distance a little more and the hand rolls to horizontal although we hardly ever strike from this distance (usually what we would call 3rd range (kick distance)). With all of this being said, the topic is on elbow alignment.....(I almost forgot). We almost always keep the elbows down and tucked in, but there are always exceptions! :asian:


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