# Police Combatives?



## Hudson69 (Nov 7, 2009)

What is the best system you have come across?, ...........why?

Krav Maga?
FBI?
PART?
PPCT?
Proprietary system created by your department?
Anyone know of any others out there?


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## dbell (Nov 7, 2009)

This group has a pretty effective system:  http://www.policetacticsinstructors.org/

Grandmaster Vincent Marchetti does a very good job of teaching police tactics that work.


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## Allen a.k.a. Destroyer (Nov 7, 2009)

www.dsihq.com

This is Grandmaster Pellegrini's business site. I have not personally experienced his "police combatives"... but the man impressed me in a seminar on Combat Hapkido. 

You would know that is not an easy thing to do if you knew me.

The military combatives program is a heck of a program too if you're that into extra training. I thought Hapkido was nasty... GM P's Combat Hapkido takes that to the _nth_ power. His IPDTI has to be an amazing program. Definitely worth checking out. Look at the seminars list on there and see if there's anything near you within the next year or so. And of course the school list can help you find the program as well, I'm sure.


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## Drac (Nov 7, 2009)

Allen a.k.a. Destroyer said:


> www.dsihq.com
> 
> This is Grandmaster Pellegrini's business site. I have not personally experienced his "police combatives"... but the man impressed me in a seminar on Combat Hapkido.
> 
> ...


 
I agree..I was looking for something to add to my training toolbox and saw the ad for Combat Hapkido and that they had a police training program..I drove to NC for an intensive weekend in 2003 and have been with it ever since. I took the week long Controlled FORCE instructors program a few years prior and just wasnt that impressed with it, though some officers I met swear by it.I think it was the instructors that started the seminar by making the statement that ALL martial arts were ********..


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## jks9199 (Nov 8, 2009)

I don't think there's a "best" and I'm not familiar enough with any of the choices to rate them...

The truth is that a rookie LEO needs to learn enough skills rapidly to defend themselves in a fight to the death -- and to use a controlled response appropriate to the situation, too!  It's a pretty big bill to fill.  They need some basic strikes (fist, elbows, and open hands, as well as kicks and knees...), as well as throws and holds.  They need to be exposed to the reality of being hit -- because more and more kids today have never really been hit.  And they need practice applying these skills in realistic situations, because on day 1, they might need them.  Whatever training vehicle works to do this is good...  and if it doesn't do this, it's not.  It's that simple.  And that complex... because I didn't include other skills that fall under the DT arena, like handcuffing, officer safety tactics, how to do searches... and lots more.  Or the very limited time available.  And the skills have to be able to be retained well with little refresher training.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 8, 2009)

Well said Jks9199  it is a very wide bill to fill.  Very hard to train someone from scratch and get them ready after a weekend or in the case of an academy a few months of training or roughly 20 to 40 hours of Defensive Tactics, Handcuffing, Firearms, etc.  That is a big bill to fill.  Truthfully most systems geared towards LEO's do just okay given the time frame that they have.  Still regularly quarterly training or more would ingrain these skills effectively but unfortunately most departments do not want to spend the time, effort and money to ensure officer safety.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 9, 2009)

The only one I have any experience with is the one they teach the police and military in China and that is Sanda. As for which one is the best, I couldn't tell you I have no experience with any other and even if I did it is likely I still couldnt tell you which is best or rate them in anyway.

All I can say about Sanda is what my sifu said. Sanda is not the best martial art it is just a quick way to learn how to hurt someone very badly.


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## Drac (Nov 16, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well said Jks9199 it is a very wide bill to fill. Very hard to train someone from scratch and get them ready after a weekend or in the case of an academy a few months of training or roughly 20 to 40 hours of Defensive Tactics, Handcuffing, Firearms, etc. That is a big bill to fill. Truthfully most systems geared towards LEO's do just okay given the time frame that they have. Still regularly quarterly training or more would ingrain these skills effectively but unfortunately most departments do not want to spend the time, effort and money to ensure officer safety.


 
And that's the hell of it...Only the most progressive will schedule something like regular training...I tried to get my department to do it and was given *EVERY* excuse in the book...When the State of Ohio came up with a mandatory updated training they prefered to sit us in a classroom and bore us with some BS that did notthing for officer survival..


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## K831 (Nov 16, 2009)

It is crazy to me how many military personnel and LEO's I have met who have very poor hand to hand (and shooting) skills. I know everything comes down to time and money, but it's scary where some of these guys skill levels are, given the danger they face regularly. 

One thing I see pretty commonly that strikes me as curious; A lot of guys in the area are training in styles where, in my estimation, much of the techniques and movements would become very difficult and impractical while wearing vest/armor, utility belt loaded, boots etc... That has to be a factor, doesn't it?


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## Drac (Nov 17, 2009)

K831 said:


> It is crazy to me how many military personnel and LEO's I have met who have very poor hand to hand (and shooting) skills. I know everything comes down to time and money, but it's scary where some of these guys skill levels are, given the danger they face regularly


 
Very true...I know officers that will hit the range 2 -3 time a week and spend x amount of dollars on ammo..But the suggestion they attend one hand to hand class and the whining starts..Or the other old standby line of  " I dont need any of that kar-otty crap as long as I have my pistol.". 



K831 said:


> One thing I see pretty commonly that strikes me as curious; A lot of guys in the area are training in styles where, in my estimation, much of the techniques and movements would become very difficult and impractical while wearing vest/armor, utility belt loaded, boots etc... That has to be a factor, doesn't it?


 
Very true...I told the cadets in the academy to go home and dress for works and try one of your spinning jump kicks..


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2009)

Drac said:


> Very true...I told the cadets in the academy to go home and dress for works and try one of your spinning jump kicks..


 
A friend of mine, who recently retired form the PD, always preferred styles like Aikido and Bagua and things like Qinna for that very reason. He could do it dressed for work.


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## jks9199 (Nov 17, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> A friend of mine, who recently retired form the PD, always preferred styles like Aikido and Bagua and things like Qinna for that very reason. He could do it dressed for work.


One of the things I look at when I'm looking at books, articles, or demonstrations that are supposed to be police defensive tactics is what the people are wearing.  They don't have to have a gunbelt, etc. on in every picture or every part of it -- but it better be there for a fair number of them.  Because it does effect how you move and what you can do...


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> One of the things I look at when I'm looking at books, articles, or demonstrations that are supposed to be police defensive tactics is what the people are wearing. They don't have to have a gunbelt, etc. on in every picture or every part of it -- but it better be there for a fair number of them. Because it does effect how you move and what you can do...


 
I did actually talk to him about that a while back (since I never wore a gunbelt and did SD I was wondering how that effected any MA he did) and he pretty much agreed. There was a world of difference between SD with the Gun belt and SD without it.


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## Drac (Nov 17, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> One of the things I look at when I'm looking at books, articles, or demonstrations that are supposed to be police defensive tactics is what the people are wearing. They don't have to have a gunbelt, etc. on in every picture or every part of it -- but it better be there for a fair number of them. Because it does effect how you move and what you can do...


 
When Master Steve and I put on an IPDTI class we make wearing a gunbelt *MANDATORY*..One officer/trainer I met did a class where ya wore your complete uniform, vest and gun belt..It opened a lot of eyes..


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## jks9199 (Nov 17, 2009)

Drac said:


> When Master Steve and I put on an IPDTI class we make wearing a gunbelt *MANDATORY*..One officer/trainer I met did a class where ya wore your complete uniform, vest and gun belt..It opened a lot of eyes..


To me, there's a place for both.  It's often easier to learn some things without the gunbelt (it's easier and often kinder to the other guy, who won't find an ASP with his groin during a hip throw, for example) -- but you have to move into having it on at some point, too.  Our academy has even moved on to having recruits in body armor for DT training...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 17, 2009)

I think training in both is essential.  I know regular BJJ or any grappling changes dramatically when the gun belt is on.  You also have to take into account on how you pass, move, etc. as you do not want to present your firearm/tool's to combatant while you are trying to arrest them.  Unfortunately few address these issues and when they do it is infrequent at best and departments do not want to spend the time/effort and of course the money to protect their officer's.


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## Drac (Nov 18, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> To me, there's a place for both. It's often easier to learn some things without the gunbelt (it's easier and often kinder to the other guy, who won't find an ASP with his groin during a hip throw, for example) -- but you have to move into having it on at some point, too. Our academy has even moved on to having recruits in body armor for DT training...


 
I agree..In the beginning it is kinder to have no equipment on..


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 18, 2009)

Drac said:


> I agree..In the beginning it is kinder to have no equipment on..



Absolutely and then you eventually work into having the gunbelt on.  Recently when teaching a couple of MSP officer's up here we concentrated on working some grappling without their belts on.  Then after they were more proficient with the techniques we put the belts on and continued to train.  It certainly helped them develop the technique and then reinforced exactly why we were going to one side or another to protect access to their firearm.


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## Drac (Nov 19, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It certainly helped them develop the technique and then reinforced exactly why we were going to one side or another to protect access to their firearm.


 
Weapon retention is a *VERY NECESSARY* and much needed aspect of any DT program, and some of the ones I've seen don't spend nearly enough time on that topic..


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 19, 2009)

Drac said:


> Weapon retention is a *VERY NECESSARY* and must needed aspect of any DT program and some of the ones I've seen don't spend nearly enough time on that topic..



Absolutely Drac it is an *essential skill set* that needs to be addressed by any Defensive Tactics program!


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## Drac (Nov 19, 2009)

IMHO don't use the Yellow, Red or Blue guns..Use what ya carry on duty..Just have a senior officer or the Range Officer inspect each officers firearm at the begining of class insure the there is no round in the chamber and the mag is empty, ditto that the mags in the duty belt are empty and the officer is NOT carrying a back up gun..There are a few horror stories out there about instructors that were shot and wounded by a back up weapon that was not checked...

I attended a class like that..Weapons were inspected anytime an officer left the room and re-entered..


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## KenpoTex (Nov 19, 2009)

Drac said:


> IMHO don't use the Yellow, Red or Blue guns..Use what ya carry on duty..Just have a senior officer or the Range Officer inspect each officers firearm at the begining of class insure the there is no round in the chamber and the mag is empty, ditto that the mags in the duty belt are empty and the officer is NOT carrying a back up gun..There are a few horror stories out there about instructors that were shot and wounded by a back up weapon that was not checked...
> 
> I attended a class like that..Weapons were inspected anytime an officer left the room and re-entered..



Blade-tech training barrels are a good, low-cost option for this type of training.  Cheaper than red/blue/yellow guns and can be had for the common service weapons on the market.
http://www.blade-tech.com/Training-Barrel-pr-1018.html


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## jks9199 (Nov 19, 2009)

There's a similar product that doesn't replace the barrel entirely, but is "chambered" and a plastic rod runs the length of the barrel; either is a good, inexpensive tool to confront a major risk of training.

I'm also a fan of using blue guns/red guns or other non-firing weapons for training.  I recently was at a FATS facility, and they shared an eye-opening story.  They had a group of SWAT operators in one day, and they'd been training hard all day.  One officer was very wrapped up watching a scenario which he'd seen several times -- and at a point where he anticipated needing to fire (remember -- he's an observer this time!), he found himself drawing his own gun!  Fortunately -- it was unloaded.

There are times and reasons to do training with a variety of different implements, like non-firing guns, Sims/marking cartridges, or even just Airsoft-type guns.  But you must use appropriate safety inspection, too.  When we do any training and are using our real guns, we conduct a double safety check.  TWO people check each participant for ammo & to be sure the gun is empty.  Anytime someone leaves the training area, the check is repeated.


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## Drac (Feb 19, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> There's a similar product that doesn't replace the barrel entirely, but is "chambered" and a plastic rod runs the length of the barrel; either is a good, inexpensive tool to confront a major risk of training.
> 
> I'm also a fan of using blue guns/red guns or other non-firing weapons for training. I recently was at a FATS facility, and they shared an eye-opening story. They had a group of SWAT operators in one day, and they'd been training hard all day. One officer was very wrapped up watching a scenario which he'd seen several times -- and at a point where he anticipated needing to fire (remember -- he's an observer this time!), he found himself drawing his own gun! Fortunately -- it was unloaded.
> 
> There are times and reasons to do training with a variety of different implements, like non-firing guns, Sims/marking cartridges, or even just Airsoft-type guns. But you must use appropriate safety inspection, too. When we do any training and are using our real guns, we conduct a double safety check. TWO people check each participant for ammo & to be sure the gun is empty. Anytime someone leaves the training area, the check is repeated.


 
The folks at www.blueguns.com make training handguns in black..You have to be an officer or an academy trainer to order them I think as they are *VERY REALISTIC* looking..The first time at a seminar when one was pulled on me I swear I reacted faster than I did with the red or blue guns..


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 19, 2010)

Drac said:


> IMHO don't use the Yellow, Red or Blue guns..Use what ya carry on duty..Just have a senior officer or the Range Officer inspect each officers firearm at the begining of class insure the there is no round in the chamber and the mag is empty, ditto that the mags in the duty belt are empty and the officer is NOT carrying a back up gun..There are a few horror stories out there about instructors that were shot and wounded by a back up weapon that was not checked...
> 
> I attended a class like that..Weapons were inspected anytime an officer left the room and re-entered..



I utilize yellow and blue guns and also the blade tech barrel replacements.  They all are effective!


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## Drac (Feb 19, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I utilize yellow and blue guns and also the blade tech barrel replacements. They all are effective!


 
In all actuality it doesnt really matter what color the weapon is..As long as your training with them.. A buddy who is a narco detective in Cleveland took a loaded *Browning Desert Eagle* off of a 15 year old kid not too long ago..The bad guys always seem to have weapons and will not hesitate to use them..Be ready, train hard and often...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 19, 2010)

Drac said:


> In all actuality it doesnt really matter what color the weapon is..As long as your training with them.. A buddy who is a narco detective in Cleveland took a loaded *Browning Desert Eagle* off of a 15 year old kid not too long ago..The bad guys always seem to have weapons and will not hesitate to use them..Be ready, train hard and often...



Absolutely Drac!


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## jks9199 (Feb 19, 2010)

Drac said:


> In all actuality it doesnt really matter what color the weapon is..As long as your training with them.. A buddy who is a narco detective in Cleveland took a loaded *Browning Desert Eagle* off of a 15 year old kid not too long ago..The bad guys always seem to have weapons and will not hesitate to use them..Be ready, train hard and often...


Another thing about color...

There are several companies out there powder coating guns in all sorts of colors as well as idiots painting the tip of the barrel of a real gun orange.  I don't care what color the gun is -- if it looks like a gun, it is one.

An agency is my area is currently taking some heat for shooting a schizophrenic kid because he had a bb-gun.  I feel for the family.  But, even based on their account as reported by the Washington Post (not exactly a cop-friendly paper!), I absolutely support the shooting.  The kid had a weapon.  Most bb-guns look a lot like a regular gun, especially if you're not actually holding it.  The split second to figure out what color or whatever else to try to decide if it's a real gun could all too easily cost a cop his life.  If it looks like a gun -- it is a gun until proven differently.  And it's loaded.


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## Drac (Mar 12, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Another thing about color...
> 
> There are several companies out there powder coating guns in all sorts of colors as well as idiots painting the tip of the barrel of a real gun orange. I don't care what color the gun is -- if it looks like a gun, it is one.
> 
> An agency is my area is currently taking some heat for shooting a schizophrenic kid because he had a bb-gun. I feel for the family. But, even based on their account as reported by the Washington Post (not exactly a cop-friendly paper!), I absolutely support the shooting. The kid had a weapon. Most bb-guns look a lot like a regular gun, especially if you're not actually holding it. The split second to figure out what color or whatever else to try to decide if it's a real gun could all too easily cost a cop his life. If it looks like a gun -- it is a gun until proven differently. And it's loaded.


 
WOW, I had forgotten about the powder coated guns..Yes, they can look like toys..Your last line says it best...


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## punisher73 (Mar 12, 2010)

Our department uses an aluminum glock that is the same size and weight as a loaded glock.  I can't remember what company it is that we got them from, but it is a very good training tool since it has the weight and feel of the real thing, but has the safety of a redgun.

Combatives aren't all about protecting yourself IN the fight.  Too many departments are worried about THIER *** after the fight and if the person sues.  There are many effective tools that an officer can develop that you won't find in police combatives, because

1) Requires skill to learn and retain
2) Might look bad to bystanders
3) Requires a basic fitness to perform

Combatives are designed by the beancounters to say that all their officers were trained and qualified and that they don't have to practice the moves to remember them the next time they need to get certified.

The way some departments act, you start to think they would rather have an officer in the ground that pay out in a high money lawsuit.


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## Drac (Mar 15, 2010)

I fought an uphill battle for about 15 years concerning teaching officers some updated SD techniques. The negative receprion I got came *mostly* from the officers.." Man", They should have done that 10 years ago when we were younger". "I only have about 5 years before I retire, I dont plan on getting involved in anything"..My favorite is " If they want us to learn that " karotty" crap why did they give a gun" are among my favorites..Some of the supervisors were also just as negative..When I told one day shift Sgts that I was heading out to a seminar to learn Defenses Against a Knife his response was " Ya know what I wanna learn Drac?" *NOTHING!!!! *Another favorite from that higher-ups was " The skills I aquired in the academy will serve me well...Ya mean the skills ya learned 18 years ago that you have not practiced since??


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