# Arnis question



## Fightfan00 (Apr 19, 2004)

I see there are diffrent methods being taught in kali and escrima but I would like to know how diffrent the Arnis system taught by Remy Presas is from the Kali system taught by Dan Inosanto?For example i've read that in Arnis theres some small circle jujitsu is there any of this in kali?


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 20, 2004)

Fightfan00 said:
			
		

> I see there are diffrent methods being taught in kali and escrima but I would like to know how diffrent the Arnis system taught by Remy Presas is from the Kali system taught by Dan Inosanto?For example i've read that in Arnis theres some small circle jujitsu is there any of this in kali?




To my knowledge it does not. I had a JKD program in my school for a couple years and the Kali program that was taught did not have any open hand elements taught. This is not to say they don't exsist, it was just what was done in my school.

 :asian:


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## MJS (Apr 20, 2004)

Fightfan00 said:
			
		

> I see there are diffrent methods being taught in kali and escrima but I would like to know how diffrent the Arnis system taught by Remy Presas is from the Kali system taught by Dan Inosanto?For example i've read that in Arnis theres some small circle jujitsu is there any of this in kali?



I'm not an expert on the Inosanto version of Kali, but I looked online and found a few things.  His system is based on the Lameco style created by Edgar Sulite.  They have techs. for short, med. and long range.  It also seems like they focus alot more on dagger vs. dagger and stick vs. dagger.  As for the Presas system, Master Presas did do seminars with Wally Jay and George Dillman, so that is why you'll see hints of Small Circle and Pressure points included.  

If you would like more inof. just do a search online.  Take a look at Lemaco.  There are many links to different sites.  You can also look at Rick Tuccis school.  The web site is- pamausa.com.  If you look under the section where he has his tapes, you'll see a breakdown on the Lameco system that he teaches.  

Hope that this was a help.

Mike


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## bart (Apr 20, 2004)

One big difference would be that in Modern Arnis there are forms (anyo, sayaw, etc). In the Inosanto Blend, they do no such thing. Also in Modern Arnis there is a strict ranking system. Inosanto Blend has instructor ranks, but they are not the same as a belt ranking system, assuming that belts are indicators of what you have learned and instructor rankings are indicators of what you've been authorized to teach. When I was at the Inosanto Academy in 1998, there were upwards of 30 basic strikes and when I asked the various teachers there to show me, they did different ones. When I trained Modern Arnis there were 12, but that was back in the 80's. I'm pretty sure if you asked different Modern Arnis instructors with current certification, they would all give you the same answer as each other. 

I know that a lot of guys at the Inosanto Academy did Lameco and it has a heavy influence, but the foundation of the Inosanto Blend I believe is actually in the LaCoste system and Giron's Bahala Na system. Lameco came later and when I was there, was taught separately. One thing to remember about Inosanto Blend is that it's a composite style. So because it is a "blend", it accepts and utilizes as its own anything that it comes across that is "useful". Because of that environment, if your teacher does Machado BJJ, then the "kali" will involve that. If the teacher does any other system, the techniques will find their way into the "kali" that's being taught.

GM Presas I believe was very heavily influenced by GM Jay. I saw him only at seminars and he always included the grappling. As a matter of fact, one time at a "Big Three" (Dillman, Presas, Jay) seminar, I was the only person who brought sticks out of all the attendees and so GM Presas taught only grappling work for his section. But I think that GM Presas was less about acquisition and more about extrapolation. When he saw the Small Circle he extrapolated where that came from within Modern Arnis and I think also where Modern Arnis was within Small Circle. He did have that "Arnis is the Art within your Art" concept going. 


Anyway, scattered thoughts, but that's just my two cents.


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## loki09789 (Apr 20, 2004)

To my understanding, the Inosanto Kali program, within the larger JKD philosophy is only one of many styles that you are suppose to expose yourself to as part of your journey to personal artistic/fighting mastery.  In other words Kali for weapons, Kenpo or Boxing for empty hand, Grappling styles for that area.... so that you can draw from all of these for a personal art that 'keeps what is useful' for you.

The Arnis, MA specifically, is more systemized version of the JKD philosophy and therefore has aspects/components within the art that will give the artist the same variety of exposure that JKD people seek through the study of diverse arts.


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## Toasty (Apr 20, 2004)

Here is the Inosanto Academy curriculum as written on their website : www.inosanto.com
As you can see it is very complete art in & of itself.

*The Filipino Martial Arts - Kali-Eskrima-Kuntao-Silat*

The highly sophisticated and comprehensive martial art from the Philippines is weapon based, but ultimately an empty hand system.

The Filipino martial arts taught at the Inosanto Academy are drawn from 26 primary sources, the instructors who Magulang Na Guro Dan Inosanto has spent his life training under. With influences such as the late Grandmaster John La Coste, Magulang Na Guro Dan Inosanto has developed a program that introduces students to 12 main areas, including, but not limited to single stick, double stick, stick & dagger, double dagger, panatukan (Filipino boxing), Sikaran (Filipino kicking methods), Kuntao & Silat. 

In the US as long ago as the 1500's, the Filipino Martial Arts have something to benefit everyone. Developed for "mass attack" as well as single opponent confrontations, the training heightens student's awareness of their surroundings and teaches them to use their environment as tools of combat. Everyday objects, such as umbrellas, books, bandannas, etc., become effective means of self-defense in the hands of a properly trained individual. Use of left and right hand techniques develop coordination. Drills and techniques taught in a fluid, non-restrictive manner allow students to enhance their natural attributes and improve their sense of timing, speed, awareness, balance, agility, and confidence.


Tim, I am curious, what kind of JKD/Kali program did you have at your school that didn't have any empty hand work?
That sounds pretty odd to me...as at the beginning of their statement is says theirs "is ultimately an empty hand system".

later

Rob


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 20, 2004)

Toasty said:
			
		

> Tim, I am curious, what kind of JKD/Kali program did you have at your school that didn't have any empty hand work?
> That sounds pretty odd to me...as at the beginning of their statement is says theirs "is ultimately an empty hand system".
> 
> later
> ...



The guy who taught it use the JKD Jun Fan and Thai Boxing as his open hand base. The JKD Kali was very stick only material. He became an instructor in the mid 90's. I've also been to my fare share of JKD seminars. Most of these events seem to have almost a fencing flavor to them.

 :asian:


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## Toasty (Apr 20, 2004)

O.K., got it. Thanks for the reply.

see around soon?

later
Rob


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