# Wing Chun, good or bad?



## marshallbd (Apr 23, 2004)

A while back in another thread I asked for some advise on different styles of CMA to look into, (Bad knee and ankle) and had some interesting suggestions.  One of them was Wing Chun.  Wing Chun seems to have some people who feel very passionate about it in one way or the other.  I recieved a private email telling me it is not a very impressive art and others who swear it is "THE" art.  I do not know either way.  Could anyone with constructive information on it please give me detailed answers as to why they have the opinion of Wing Chun that they do.  Please explain what you see as the pro's and cons of this art.  Thanks in advance for your replies. :asian: Please keep your replies specific to this art...


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## markulous (Apr 23, 2004)

Like any art it depends how the teacher teaches it and how the student adapts it.  So it could easily be the best art there is to one person and the crappiest art to another.  And when you limit yourself to one set art it doesn't give you that many tools in your "toolbox".  On that note:

Pros: Good punching power.  Tourqing your body to put your hips into your punches brings a lot of speed and power.  Good Trapping.

Cons: No kicks.  Kicks throw off your average punk and bully since all they usually do is throw their hands like crazy.  No knees, no elbows.  Not much grappling.


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## brothershaw (Apr 25, 2004)

REgarding the previous post
 Wing chun uses kicks, and elbows - the kicks tend not to be high kicks but very fast low kicks to points on the leg and to damage the knee joint, which helps to destabilize the opponent. 
elbows- you see elbows from the very first form

Pros and cons of wing chun 
Pros- will help to develop very good hand speed and coordination particulary in a close to intermediate range of fighting. ( most close range arts should do that) 
-will train you to develop short range power, where you use small movements and dont need as much of a momentum factor as longer range arts, which combined with the clsoe distance and speed make it hard for an oppenent to see, expect or react.
-will help to develop very good reaction and contact sensitivity skills
- with a good teacher can be a great martial art to start with, stay  with or finish with
- you dont have to learn alot of forms as in other arts 
- no  high kicking if you are not a particularly flexible person with great kicking ability
- teaches close range fighting
-system is not built on strength

Cons- since there are not alot of forms the forms have to be practiced almost fanatically since there is alot of information within them
Cons- the primary training stance and body positions are uncomfortable and wierd since you would never normally have your body like that, but you grow into it, (most stance work imagine is uncomfortable until your legs get stronger- in any style)
Cons-  the system requires alot of precision 
Cons- it may be hard to adapt to the close range distance, you may find it hard to develop the coordination required
Cons- no high kicks, and spinning kicks (if thats what you like to do)
Cons- the sensitivity drills requires lots of endless practice
Cons- wide discrepency in how its being taught, and what whoever believes is the correct stuff so it may be very hard to judge who is a competent teacher and what you should be learning ( like most other martial arts)
Cons-  the abilities you gain dont come as quick as some of the b.s. stories you might read 
Cons- probably more comfortable for a leaner body type person 

If you really want to learn wing chun or are just curious visit as many wing chun schools as possible and watch the different classes and judge for yourself.


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## marshallbd (Apr 26, 2004)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> If you really want to learn wing chun or are just curious visit as many wing chun schools as possible and watch the different classes and judge for yourself.


Thats the hard part, There doesn't seem to be much in the way of the MA here in Elkins at all.  there is one Shotokan Instructor here teaching at the Y but he has not been there at all the last 3 times I have gone to meet him.  Only his student.   Apparently he only has 2 students (a plus as far as time with the instructor and a negative if it reflects his skill at teaching).  So I am not sure what to think there.


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## 7starmantis (Apr 26, 2004)

Why the big decision between wing chun and mantis and all if none of these are close to you?

7sm


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## marshallbd (Apr 26, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Why the big decision between wing chun and mantis and all if none of these are close to you?
> 
> 7sm


Because they are available on a private level within a 1 hr drive but I have to decide which would be best for me.  I am possibly going to have a lesson (or two) with each and decide if thats the route I wish to take. I am still trying to decide whether I want to go the CMA route or try and find a Kenpo School between me and where I perform my Reserve Duty.  So I am in the investigative stage.  No hurry though but I am thirsty for the information so I can weigh all factors and make the right decision for me. (For the record, I belive all arts have something to offer and do not feel one art is superior to another, but one style might suit a person better than another).  the purpose of my questions are to get an insiders views on the chinese side of the arts versus the japanese side which I have been exposed to. (I understand there are many other ethnic arts from Kali, to Capoeria (sp?) but have only been exposed to korean and japanese styles as well as American and Tracy's Kenpo). :asian:


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## 7starmantis (Apr 26, 2004)

Oh ok I see. I think you would really like the CMA, there are many similarities between wing chun and mantis, or any other system of kung fu for that matter. Wing chun is a relativly msall system at least in number of techniques while mantis a rather large system, I think that would be the main difference, the shere number of techniques. I think the next biggest difference would be the angles. Wing chun uses very linear movements and attacks while mantis is characterised by its moving in and out at odd and different angles to wear down the atacker. I'm by no means saying wing chun isn't effective, it is extremely effective, I'm just attempting to point out some differences between the two systems.


7sm


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## brothershaw (Apr 26, 2004)

Well whatever you decide, try to do something-
I say this because the older you get the body and the brain becomes more rigid, so if you at least get some good basics under your belt, and learn how to kick and punch until you find something you really like that isnt so bad.


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## marshallbd (Apr 27, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Oh ok I see. I think you would really like the CMA, there are many similarities between wing chun and mantis, or any other system of kung fu for that matter. Wing chun is a relativly msall system at least in number of techniques while mantis a rather large system, I think that would be the main difference, the shere number of techniques. I think the next biggest difference would be the angles. Wing chun uses very linear movements and attacks while mantis is characterised by its moving in and out at odd and different angles to wear down the atacker. I'm by no means saying wing chun isn't effective, it is extremely effective, I'm just attempting to point out some differences between the two systems.
> 
> 
> 7sm


I really appreciate the response,  I am also interested in the mental/spiritual side of the arts as well....Kenpo isn't spiritual but it is full of theory....(i love the art itself but the theoretical part gets a little too technical for me to follow), what about this side of the CMA? :asian:


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## marshallbd (Apr 27, 2004)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> Well whatever you decide, try to do something-
> I say this because the older you get the body and the brain becomes more rigid, so if you at least get some good basics under your belt, and learn how to kick and punch until you find something you really like that isnt so bad.


Oh I will never stop.....I practice my Shotokan Forms every day I can (mainly the heian forms because those are the basic ones I remember well enough not to mangle!) But I am looking for something I can start and continue with through life and hopefully (someday) reach a level where I am qualified to teach.  (I have dreamed of having the ability to teach kids who would never be able to learn the MA due to circumstances (usually financial), would never be able to learn, and do it for free in exchange for hard work from them in school) :asian:


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## 7starmantis (Apr 27, 2004)

To be completely honest my school doesn't get too deep in the spiritual side of CMA, it is there and many do get very into it, but we stay mainly on the physical, mental side. Many in our area are very religious so it just doesn't go over well. As far as the mental side however, there is much to venture into. We train pretty traditional in this aspect. We do Chi Gung excersises to increase the "chi" flow and prepare the mind and body. We focus on deep breathing excersises especially in tai chi. There is alot of philosophy in kung fu that is used in fighting and in life in general. We talk about using "verbal kung fu". This is basically where you can yield as we do to attacks but verbal attacks. In kung fu you oftentimes direct your opponant to certain movements by throwing certain attacks, we talk about how to do this verbally as well. It sounds very hocus pocus on paper, but it is not, it is very much grounded in reality, we just choose to apply our kung fu principles to our everday life as well. We use the philosophy of Chi Sou (Sticking Hands) in our everday life as well. We do drills where you cannot attack, you must only yield to the attacks being thrown at you. This can be used if someone is verbally assaulting you as well. This is hard to explain via this medium, but we apply kung fu principles to our life as well as our training. 


There are schools that get very deep into the spiritual meditation side of CMA which is great if that is what your looking for, but we tend to stay more on the physical aspect. We do have our students in advanced class come in and assume sitting meditation position until class starts but we use that time to clear the mind of the days thoughts and prepare to work hard. I think the schools you visit will all vary in their levels of this but you must find one you enjoy and can learn alot from.

7sm


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## marshallbd (Apr 27, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I think the schools you visit will all vary in their levels of this but you must find one you enjoy and can learn alot from.
> 
> 7sm


That's the general plan....to find somthing that feels right to me, and is fun, and provides me with a realistic approach to self defense, and is interesting mentally.  

In my previous post about Kenpo getting too technical, I didn't mean anything was wrong with what they do, I just get confused as to what they are talking about when they start talking about gaseous expansion and all that sort of thing.  

I belive in Chi and would love to learn more about it and how to focus my "internal energies".  That doesn't say I believe in that mystical knock em down from ten feet away stuff.

Keep talkin and I will listen.....Thanks for helping me with my search by providing me with your insights and experiences in the arts.  When I do find what I am looking for on my personal journy, i'll be sure to let you know where I go with it and how it is for me...

 :asian:


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## RevelationX (May 11, 2004)

marshallbd said:
			
		

> A while back in another thread I asked for some advise on different styles of CMA to look into, (Bad knee and ankle) and had some interesting suggestions. One of them was Wing Chun. Wing Chun seems to have some people who feel very passionate about it in one way or the other. I recieved a private email telling me it is not a very impressive art and others who swear it is "THE" art. I do not know either way. Could anyone with constructive information on it please give me detailed answers as to why they have the opinion of Wing Chun that they do. Please explain what you see as the pro's and cons of this art. Thanks in advance for your replies. :asian: Please keep your replies specific to this art...


I am a Wing Chun stylist.

Here is my take on "traditional" Wing Chun:

*PROS*- 

"Theory of Conservation of Motion" (gives movement more speed, no excess movement for opponent to measure, or read, and gives him less time to react.) It follows physics' principle "Shortest distance between two points is a straight line."

"Theory of Conservation of Energy" (nothing is wasted, each movment requires the least amount of power to achive desired effect. Your opponent loses too much energy he can no longer fight, or he gets lazy or sloppy  then allows for an opening for defeat.

"Center Line Theory" (Based on the fact that most of our body's vital points are located along a vertical center that runs down the middle of our body. This also alots to a strategic advantage to control the centerline as well as the angle of attack is to control the fight and thus, the outcome.

"Simultaneous Attack and Defense" (each movement, single or two handed, may serve as your attacking hand or defensive hand, depending on the timing and situation within each encounter.

"Emphasis on "Sticking" to your opponent" (While other arts do train this to some degree, Wing Chun puts it above all else for the abilty to "read" your opponent and determine the outcome of the encounter.

"Body Postures/Mechanics = Power" (If compared to the Songs, Treatise, and Poems, of various "internal" arts the "shape" of the art follows most, if not all, of the rules concerning the development of power, and the conversion of Qi to Jin.
Anyone who has trained in the art can attest to the almost effortless amount of power developed within the various WC tech. with very little Li (muscular power) needed to produce such power.

"Use of 'Combat' related weapons" ( Nothing sporting about an art that promotes the use of eye gouging, elbows, and kicks to crush the knee. And once again, yes, I know other arts use these techs I have not seen an art that devoted ENTIRE forms to train them. If so I stand corrected, but then, this is just ONE example of the effectivness of this art.

"Exstensive use of two-man sets in training" (IMO Nothing other than actual combat can train sensitivity, speed, endurance, reaction, and timing, hand and armbridge conditioning as well as full bore, all out two-man sets with numerous variatons to allow for adjustment and the repetitve then, subconcious learning to take place.

"Use of the Wooden Dummy" ( By far the best training aid (aside from a real partner) to date. It is so effective, MANY other styles use it to hone thier own tech. and skills. Makes your posture more compact, conditions your weapons, and allows for "responsive" shadowboxing so that you get a resistance that trains the mind/body connection more completely than simply punching air. Did I mention that it's a partner that never complains, or gets tired?

"Simplicity of the ENTIRE system" (Kind of speaks for itself. 3 forms (or Katas if you are Japanese oriented  , 108 (or 116) wooden dummy forms (movements), two types of footwork (short-range and long-range, and thats about it. Very nice. Takes about 6 months to get familiar with it so it may be useful to you, yet it still takes a lifetime to master.

If I think of any more pros Ill edit this at a later date.

*CONS-*

Lack of training of "circular" energy. This hinders multiple-combatant proficiency. Not that Wing Chun doesent use circular energy. The circles are very small and oblong, however, and are normally applied within a straitline energy. Many Ba Gua practitioners give most WC guys hell if they are not able to adapt to the energy.

The art is not flashy or visual (see- pros, conv. movement, conv. energy) so it turns some people off in that respect.

Lack of 'Long range" fighting applications. Remedied by footwork and forward energy.

Lack of joint manipulation. Most schools now supplement Chin Na for this specific reason. If your school does not, I recommend specific Chin Na training, or it's Japanese counterpart, Akijujitsu. Wing Chun is a style that harmonizes perfectly with these styles based on it's close fighting range, traps, and sensitvity training.

Lack of ground fighting. IMO the art's most apparent flaw. Primarily the reason why im also training in BJJ now to complete my combat effectivness. 

Also, If i come up with more cons I will ammend this section as well.


All in all, I believe Wing Chun to be an effective and amazing system. However, I also believe that there is no ONE perfect art. I would recommend choosing an art that suits your personality, fitness level, age, and goals for training, for various arts speak to different people some more than others.

Good Luck to you all in your training.


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## arnisandyz (May 12, 2004)

marshallbd said:
			
		

> Could anyone with constructive information on it please give me detailed answers as to why they have the opinion of Wing Chun that they do.



Because some like it some don't. WC is a good system, like many,  that follows a set of principles throughout.  Some of those principles cater to some people more than others.  Why do you think your friends girlfriend is "average" when he thinks she is beautiful? He might see things that you may not (personality, etc), or maybe she is just not that good lookng, but he is blinded by love!


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## arnisandyz (May 12, 2004)

sorry for the cryptic message, but everyone already gave good pros/cons.  I might add that one persons Pro (specializes at in-fighting/trapping) might be another persons Con. So its on a different scale.  Just like your scale of what makes a beautiful woman would be different from your friends.


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## marshallbd (May 13, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Because some like it some don't. WC is a good system, like many,  that follows a set of principles throughout.  Some of those principles cater to some people more than others.  Why do you think your friends girlfriend is "average" when he thinks she is beautiful? He might see things that you may not (personality, etc), or maybe she is just not that good lookng, but he is blinded by love!


Yeah, I understand that perceptions and experiences and opinions on one subject vary greatly from one person to another.  That is why I am looking for multiple opinions on the same subject to weigh the answers and use the information I glean from those answers to aid me on my quest to choose an art to begin to study....Thanks for your reply... :asian:


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## 7starmantis (May 13, 2004)

One thing I may caution you about is "too much research". There comes a point where you have to just get in there and start the learning process. Research is great, dont get me wrong, but be careful not to get to focused on it adn forget to start your training. Putting off your training makes the research almost worthless as it is better to be doing something, almost anything, rather than nothing.

JMHO,
  7sm


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## marshallbd (May 13, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> One thing I may caution you about is "too much research". There comes a point where you have to just get in there and start the learning process. Research is great, dont get me wrong, but be careful not to get to focused on it adn forget to start your training. Putting off your training makes the research almost worthless as it is better to be doing something, almost anything, rather than nothing.
> 
> JMHO,
> 7sm


I am practicing (daily) the Kata from my Shotokan days.....and am going to train 1 night per month with a Sifu in Pittsburgh (When I go for my Reserve Training).  In Wing Chun......

I also just last night found a Karate instructor as I was taking a walk with my youngest daughter to the library....she loves ghost stories and reads them voraciously.... I will call and find out what style he teaches and take a couple of intro calsses to see if I want to continue with that as well...


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