# Your Ethnicity



## Logan (Apr 26, 2007)

I was just thinking about ethnicity and how it is interpreted. For example, I meet people from all walks of life and I always find it interesting what places/society they associate themselves with.

Americans, being so cosmopolitian, are generally very vocal and take great pride in their origins - the Irish in Boston comes to mind etc. 

Within the martial arts world it is quite common to encounter the Western-who-so-desparately-wants-to-be-eastern type mentality. 

What shines through no matter what the situation is the need for a connection, whether genetic origin, religious belief, or whatever. I guess ethnicity could be considered self-identity. In some of the above examples, I've met people who try to make a connection, no matter how absurd...

To open the matter for debate, do you think Martial artists could be interpreted as an ethnic group? Social? Family? Delusional? All of the above!???????

How do you define who you are and where you come from?


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## CoryKS (Apr 26, 2007)

Logan said:


> How do you define who you are and where you come from?


 
I define myself culturally.  Ethnicity means very little; I'd rather be in the company of people who share my values than those who share my physical traits.  I don't see martial artists as any kind of ethnicity or cultural group because, as this forum has proved, MAists don't necessarily share any one value or trait.  Interest in one activity is a tenuous basis for connection.


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## JBrainard (Apr 26, 2007)

Logan said:


> To open the matter for debate, do you think Martial artists could be interpreted as an ethnic group? Social? Family? Delusional? All of the above!???????


 
Delusional, definitely delusional.


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## tellner (Apr 26, 2007)

I am a proud Amphibian American, dedicated to stamping out Bufophobia


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## Shaderon (Apr 26, 2007)

I think ethnic groups are starting to blur at the edges, those edges will get more and more blurred until eventually in many years to come (if the earth lasts that long) only the extreme die-hards will claim ethnic purity.  Cultural groups are taking their place more and more, the internet has a lot to thank for this phenomanon, as people all over the world are brought together in a like-minded (or not) group that have a common denominator that matters so much more to them than their ethnic status, which in fact matters very little when you can't see the person you are talking to.

Everyone is delusional, not just us and not especially us martial artists, in classes we are like families but I would say we are most like a huge club, a social group who, even though we have differences in what we do, have a common denominator in MA as a whole and, indeed gravitate towards each other to chat about the differences and similarities whenever and whereever you might find us.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 26, 2007)

Logan said:


> How do you define who you are and where you come from?



American!  With no hyphens.   Family has been here since 1635.


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## Zoran (Apr 26, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> I define myself culturally.



Ethnicity is cultural, not racial or nationality. It can include a combination of geneology, religion, laguage, traditions, and etc. 

For example, American is not an ethnic group as we are so culturally diverse. It would be considered a nationality. 

Anyways, I am Serbian.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 26, 2007)

Zoran said:


> Ethnicity is cultural, not racial or nationality. It can include a combination of geneology, religion, laguage, traditions, and etc.
> 
> For example, American is not an ethnic group as we are so culturally diverse. It would be considered a nationality.
> 
> Anyways, I am Serbian.



I know that.


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## Dave Leverich (Apr 26, 2007)

Hehe, Dave, beat ya by 2 years!
*ducks and covers*

Ethnically? I like to think I'm all people, a complete melting pot. Those I _know_ of are English, Irish, Scottish and Portuguese. I'd been told Croatian, but never proven that, and Souix, again never proven that (or college would have been cheaper ;p).

How do I see myself? I'm everyman.


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## Carol (Apr 26, 2007)

Euro-mutt


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## Dave Leverich (Apr 26, 2007)

Apparently Oct 10, 1633 in New Hampshire... Wonder if our ancient relatives knew one another heh. Crazy stuff. (Kind of floors me to know mine was an actual pilgrim, silly hat and all lol). I tell you, the internet is crazy like that, found a cousin that we traced 8 generations back/forward in New Jersey, what's that like 48th cousins? ;p.

But yeah, Original Topic? I classify myself as human, no more no less.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 26, 2007)

Logan said:


> To open the matter for debate, do you think Martial artists could be interpreted as an ethnic group? Social? Family? Delusional? All of the above!???????
> 
> How do you define who you are and where you come from?


 
I had this conversation with a lady from Germany about heritage and she thought it was rather funny that people in America when asked about their family they tend to start talking about their Irish, German, Italian, Scottish, etc. heritage and they tend NOT to identify themselves as Americans. Where in just about any country she has been to in Europe just says they are from Spain of France or Germany, etc. She chalked it up to the fact that as a country we are so new.

And if you talk to my Wifes family they do not identify themselves as Chinese but Beijingren.


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## CoryKS (Apr 26, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> I had this conversation with a lady from Germany about heritage and she thought it was rather funny that people in America when asked about their family they tend to start talking about their Irish, German, Italian, Scottish, etc. heritage and they tend NOT to identify themselves as Americans. Where in just about any country she has been to in Europe just says they are from Spain of France or Germany, etc. She chalked it up to the fact that as a country we are so new.
> 
> And if you talk to my Wife&#8217;s family they do not identify themselves as Chinese but Beijingren.


 
In the Corps my friends and I used to laugh about the fact that when we were stateside we were White, Black, Spanish, or Korean but that once we reached Okinawa all of sudden we were Americans.  As in, "No Americans Allowed" in certain bars.


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## bushidomartialarts (Apr 26, 2007)

As I mentioned in another post, my ethnicity is "Brick", my family name.

I was raised with little concern for our varied northern European origins, and not terribly much for the generations we've spent in the USA.  What was instilled in me from my earliest memory is pride in the family I'm a part of, and a responsibility to make sure I do right by the family name.

Part of this was learning enough history to know where we came from, how we got here -- I'm pretty well educated about my geneology and ethnic roots. 
But mostly, I'm a Brick.


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## Kacey (Apr 26, 2007)

Like Carol, if you are referring to where my ancestors lived, I am a Euro-mutt, with some Russian thrown in too - the countries I am _aware of_ that my ancestors lived in include (but are almost certainly not limited to) England, Ireland, France, Germany, Bavaria, Russia and... um... my genealogy data is at home, I'd have to go look.

I am an American - and while I have no problem with people being proud of their origins, I am tired of the lumping together of certain groups as if they were all the same - for example, one of my neighbors is from the Bahamas, and is, in her own description, black - she is not African American; as far as she knows, she has no ancestors from Africa for at least the last 200 years - she is an American from the Bahamas.  Another example:  one of the teachers at my middle school is from Columbia, but he is constantly lumped in (ethnically speaking) with the general grouping "Hispanic", which, realistically, refers to people who originally came from Spain - and he's not; his ancestors are from South America.  Both of them dislike this type of grouping, and prefer not to be labeled at all rather than mislabeled.   

Perhaps if we quit labeling people by their origins, and instead labeled them by their accomplishments, choices, and so on, this would be a better world, and more cohesive, instead of the endless divisions caused by the hyphenated labels so common today.


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## bluemtn (Apr 26, 2007)

Me?  I have a lot of Irish ancestory from both sides, with some English and some Native American-  been told Cherokee...  Hard telling-  family has been spread throughout the U.S...

Anyways-  martial arts isn't a specific ethnicity or social or anything else.  It's like here-  a big melting pot, where everyone from all walks of life came to with visions, some with common visions and interests.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 26, 2007)

JBrainard said:


> Delusional, definitely delusional.


 
And I that note I realized I did not say that I identify myself Social/Family/Delusional/All of the above or/pick one as a 

"Megalomaniac Evil Wizard bent on world domination".  :mst: :uhyeah:


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## bookworm_cn317 (Apr 26, 2007)

I'm mostly white ethnic: some Native American, some Irish, some French-Canadian, some English, some Italian (which I, personally, consider myself to be. I'm very family-oriented. Not to mention, I talk with my hands a lot.), and some Scottish.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 26, 2007)

Logan said:


> I was just thinking about ethnicity and how it is interpreted. For example, I meet people from all walks of life and I always find it interesting what places/society they associate themselves with.
> 
> Americans, being so cosmopolitian, are generally very vocal and take great pride in their origins - the Irish in Boston comes to mind etc.
> 
> ...


All the above fits. 
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 26, 2007)

Name a Scandinavian country and I have ancestors from there except Sweden... OF Course:ultracool 
Sean


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## Jdokan (Apr 26, 2007)

I'm Tom & Irene's Boy...their youngest.


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## geocad (Apr 26, 2007)

I'm 1/4 Flip, 1/4 Tlingit (SE Alaska Native American), and 1/2 German. It's funny that most Asians I meet can see a little something in me and usually always ask. Other Tlingits (full bloods) or other tribes do not recognize/respect me as Native because I was not raised in Alaska or on a res. Germans don't recognize me because I don't look white. I am usually discriminated against by people from my own heritage because of one or the other listed above.

It's funny that most Mexicans (and everyone else I meet) think I'm Latino and just automatically suspect I speak Spanish.

As for MA, I never really had a good friendship with higher advanced belts. Even there it seemed there was a class system. 

But I always list myself as Alaskan Native with high hopes of getting a few extra points on government applications.  So far no luck.

I'm just an American from NoCal with little status...for now.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 26, 2007)

Dave Leverich said:


> Apparently Oct 10, 1633 in New Hampshire... Wonder if our ancient relatives knew one another heh. Crazy stuff.



Good possibility!  The communities were quite small back in those days!   I think mine were in Newbury in 1635 and later in 1644 they were in Andover.  I believe I read they were from Wales.


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## Lisa (Apr 26, 2007)

I am Canadian! eh?

But my family roots trace back in many directions.  Mostly to the slavic countries of Ukraine and Poland.  Probably why I love my perogies and cabbage rolls as much as I do, oh, and garlic.  Can never have enough garlic. 

On my mother's side there is some native american as well.  Cree, from what I am told.


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## tellner (Apr 26, 2007)

geocad, it's a lot like my wife's situation. Her mother is from China. Her father is Black but with a fair bit of White and a strong dash of Native American. Latins think she's Latina. Filipinos think she's one of them. So do Nepalis, Seychelloise and a few others. The ones whose curiosity wins out in a fight with their propriety usually ask "Where are you from?" She answers "Philadelphia, but I don't like to talk about it."


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## MA-Caver (Apr 26, 2007)

Shaderon said:


> I think ethnic groups are starting to blur at the edges, those edges will get more and more blurred until eventually in many years to come (if the earth lasts that long) only the extreme die-hards will claim ethnic purity.


I agree here because I'm seeing the blurring of the lines here as well. And that is important because racial strife is still evident and it helps when it's difficult to call someone an ethnic slur because they're half and half or split into thirds or even quarters. 

My father's side came from 2, 4, or 3 brothers (nobody knows exactly how-many) that immigrated from (Dublin) Ireland and settled into (what was before then) North Carolina. From there those brothers turned out to be quite prolific. There has been a member of my father's family that fought in every single American war since before the declaration of independence. 
My mother's family came from Holland. I don't know too much about her side unfortunately. 

Still, like BigShadow I call myself an American without a hyphen... and I think it should be that way. Right now the only ethnic group still using hyphenated identification of their cultural identity are African Americans, or at least that's all I hear most about. I have heard terms of Irish Americans, Italian Americans, Chinese Americans and thanks to Cheech Marin: Mexican Americans. But you rarely hear it... (at least I rarely hear it :idunno: )

 I am of the belief that if you and your family has been in this country since the post-industrial revolution (and/or before) then you're Americans... PERIOD! Other words if your great-grand father/mother were born here then... 
Same goes for Brits and their increasing immigration and likewise with France and other countries that are experiencing an increase of non-euro population. Several generations born and died in a particular place makes that (present) generation OF that place.  

As far as racial purity... well geez what's the point? Human beings are human beings. There's been enough blood shed over time by every race to prove that the color of the blood is the same. 

Culturally sure we should hold on to those roots because they help us as individuals identify who we are and where we come from so to learn from our past in order to help see/guide the future. But as groups? It helps blur the lines sometimes. 

Martial Artists as an cultural or ethnic group? Might ask the same for Snow Boarders, Cavers, Scuba Divers, Hunters, Fishermen (Fresh and Salt), and so on.  It's easy to blur the lines there as well... i.e. I'm a caver who's also a martial artist... or is it a martial artist who's also a caver? 

WHO CARES?? 

:wink1: 
not me


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## Andy Moynihan (Apr 26, 2007)

My ethnic background is predominantly Irish.

My nationality is American.

I am elements of both those things, but neither of those things are ME, make sense?


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 26, 2007)

Well here is what I have to say:

Native American - As I was born here in the USA.
My family name goes back to before there was an official colony, it was just a settlement or two. Add in some mixing of Native American Indian, not enough to claim or get credit anywhere. 

On Paper I am Caucasion.

In life everyone thinks I am something but most deffinitely not WASP.
Anything Med, or Arabic, or Hispanic. (* Make sure you add in those that use the negative terms for all thsoe cultures as well *)

I agree that I prefer to associate with those I call friends. It does not matter where they grew up or where they were born, it does matter hwo they act to me and others.


*************

As to Martial Artists I agree with Delusionsal  Ok maybe social.


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## bluemtn (Apr 26, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> My ethnic background is predominantly Irish.
> 
> My nationality is American.
> 
> *I am elements of both those things*, but *neither of those things are ME, *make sense?


 


Rich Parsons said:


> Well here is what I have to say:
> 
> Native American - As I was born here in the USA.
> My family name goes back to before there was an official colony, it was just a settlement or two. Add in some mixing of Native American Indian, not enough to claim or get credit anywhere.
> ...


 
I couldn't agree more with these posts, especially where I made bold.  Great posts, you guys!


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## Shaderon (Apr 26, 2007)

Oh yes and I didn't say what I was, 

I'm from England, I know I've got Welsh in me though (Maternal grandpa was a welsh fisherman) and from WAAAAYY back I've got Saxon and probably some Roman Italian in me somewhere.  Like anyone, I'm a mongrel.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 26, 2007)

Ethnicity is an awkward kind of question.  

On the one hand, it's meaningless because culture is a much stronger force on how you develop and, skin colour aside, everyone is much more mixed than humans ever used to be so there are fewer significant 'markers' any more.  

On the other, it's very important as it's what used to make tribes hang together.  That's why what we call 'racism' is so enduring i.e. it's an almost genetic level 'programming' that tells us whether a person we meet is 'our tribe' or 'possible resource competitior'.

With a globalising community, that sort of ethinic divisor is a hinderance rather than a help as it acts as a lever to provoke conflict, particularly amongst those unable or unwilling to use reason to overcome instinct.

Anyhow, 'serious' bit over, my ethnicity is as typically mixed as anyones.  I'm Midlands English by birth, which makes me about 30% Norman, 30% Viking/Norse, 30% Celt and 10% Saxon + who-knows .  The family name means something like "Red Bearded Men of the Valley/Dwellers at the Edge of the Moor" and is considered to be Viking in origin.

Thanks to the Norman bit, I'm actually in line for a title ... about 200th in line and rising (or rather 'falling' as its getting further away) :lol:.  That's not out of the ordinary for 'established' families in Britain tho', the nobility of past ages being rather infamous for generic 'zipper' (or should that be 'codpiece'?) problems.

My families been in the same region for nearly 1000 years (we're in the Doomsday Book for my home town) - I'm fairly far flung from the tree as I've made it twenty miles from where I was born {darned new-fangled modern transportation spreading the family around :lol:}.


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## tellner (Apr 26, 2007)

While I agree in theory, the difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.

"Race" is a scientifically meaningless concept when applied to human beings. But in practical terms it's real. And the people who say they don't see color or that ethnicity is irrelevant in America are almost entirely White. From the other side of the fence being of African, Latin American, Native North American, Middle Eastern or Asian descent still makes a tremendous difference although less so than before and less so for East Asians than the others. 

Not that many years ago a friend of my father's was President of the American Nuclear Medical Society. They were having their annual convention down South, and he made the mistake of leaving the hotel. He ran into a police officer who said "What's your name, boy?"

He replied "I'm Dr. So-and-so, President of the American Nuc-"

"I said 'Whats your name, boy'!"

He said "Right then I knew exactly what I was, Doctor ******."

Did anyone have any trouble figuring out the skin color of the two people involved or which six letters were asterisked out? You in the back? You couldn't tell. Man, you are a damned poor liar.


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## tradrockrat (Apr 26, 2007)

intersting thread.

My fathers side has been here since colonial times (there is a Carroll on the Declaration of Independance and another on the Bill of Rights - distant cousins, not direct lineage), but I still identify myself as Irish-American with pride.

In this thread people have made some very good points about the multicultural diversity in this country, and I believe myself to be American, but my frankly, many of my cultural mores and beliefs are heavily influenced from my Irish Heritage. (for the record, my fathers family is all Irish, and my mother is half Irish, half Italian).

I don't feel that I can seperate MY beliefs from the beliefs that I was surrounded with as a youth - and those beliefs can be traced back to my Irish heritage.  I have family in Ireland that are visited anytime one of my extended family makes it over to Rosscommon.

My family has a long and illustrious history in Ireland - my original ancestor was Brian Boru's war champion - that's what my last name actually means - Fierce or Victorious Warrior.  My family is one of the few Irish to have a tartan color and recognized clan (Irish clans are NOT like Scottish).  Why would I ever throw that away or ignore it?

I'm proud of the history of Irish immigrants.  My actual straight line of descent starts in America in 1864 when a relative of Daniel Carroll of Carrollton came to America in order to eat and meet his rich relatives in Maryland - that didn't work out cause the Union army was waiting for them at the docks, so some joined the Army and others ran as far south as they could - they were tired of fighting - and found themselves in Texas.  Over the years they eventually migrated back up to Maryland.  Now I brought it back to Texas  .  A family member has fought in every war America has ever had until my last cousin left the army after Desert Storm.

Anyway - I think it's clear I am proud of my heritage, but when the **** hits the fan or it comes down to it - I am American first and forever, or as my grandfather used to say, "American by birth, Irish by the grace of God."  I was born an American and that's who I am.

I don't believe Martial Arts belongs in the same category as American, Irish-American, etc.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 26, 2007)

To *Tellner*

It might be the case that certain regions of certain countries have this problem more than others.  It's not universal any longer (I hope).  

Sadly, those in the media seeking to be 'right on' broadcast attitudes to the world that are less than helpful.

It's not that it is wrong to highlight problems that exist but it is wrong that these 'problems' then get exported to places where they didn't previously have houseroom.

I've seen this process in action here in England where, by dint of hard work from leaders in the community and home grown programming (usually sit-coms) we had gotten over the influx of (for example) West Indians to Britain.  The racism had started to abate in other words.  

Then we imported American programming with its ever prevelent "Is it 'cos I am Black?" undercurrent.  That set off a new wave of reverse racism that lingers today and is even more off-target because the individuals who use it to their own purposes have nothing to do with the culture that spawned it.

Now I have to say that there is nothing wrong with socially aware TV.  It serves a valuable purpose.  But when it is used to ignite a previous non-issue because it broadcasts attitudes that exist in another society, then it becomes a problem of it's own.  It should be made mandatory that people realise that altho' a large percentage of the influential media of the world comes from America, not all of the human facets in that media exist outside of the country of origin.

Anyway, how did this get so serious all of a sudden?


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## Logan (Apr 27, 2007)

Do you think your attitude would alter if your geographic location changed?

For example, at home you may consider yourself an individual or of a particular group. Say, you wind up in a foreign land - do you think you would gravitate towards the closest connection you have, whether it be people from your country, continent etc or would you remain individual or open to change and so on... The more I think about it, the more I consider identity to be a complete variable and not as straightforward as some would like to think. Like a pyramid of connections.


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## Kwiter (Apr 27, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> American!  With no hyphens.   Family has been here since 1635.





Mohawk, My Family has been here since the dawn of time.

O:nen ki' wahi'


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## Shaderon (Apr 27, 2007)

Logan said:


> Do you think your attitude would alter if your geographic location changed?
> 
> For example, at home you may consider yourself an individual or of a particular group. Say, you wind up in a foreign land - do you think you would gravitate towards the closest connection you have, whether it be people from your country, continent etc or would you remain individual or open to change and so on... The more I think about it, the more I consider identity to be a complete variable and not as straightforward as some would like to think. Like a pyramid of connections.


 

That would depend on other people, if I was pressured and life made difficult for me, I'd probably go wherever it was easiest.  I am a peaceful warrior, not an antagonistic one.   If all people treated me with respect then I would gravitate towards the place I wanted to be, and the experiences I wanted to have.   However if I was pressured to choose my "own kind" for company, I'd still talk to whoever was willing to talk to me, no matter who they were.


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## tellner (Apr 27, 2007)

It certainly does make a difference. My father in law is Black. Here in America he's always been Black and always will be Black. When the family moved to Tanzania he was suddenly White. His wife is from China. She was still Chinese. Their children were White. 

These things matter. The fact that the distinctions are largely in peoples' heads doesn't change the fact.


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## geocad (Apr 27, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Ethnicity is an awkward kind of question.
> 
> On the one hand, it's meaningless because culture is a much stronger force on how you develop and, skin colour aside, everyone is much more mixed than humans ever used to be so there are fewer significant 'markers' any more....


 
Hold the boat!!  Most anthropologists agree about genetic markers in mixed Americans that identify their historic link and/or heritage.  For example, the shovel-shaped incisors are a definate marker for 90% of Native American Indians and East Asians still identified today.  In addition, the Diego blood group is identified in higher frequencies of both east and northeast asians and Native American populations.

So, if you think you may have some Native American or Asian but are not sure, ask your dentist if you have shovel-shaped incisors.  

Sorry about the rave.  My ex-wife is an anthropologist/archaeologist and educated me a little on the subject.  Google works too.  Cheers! ~G


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## Sukerkin (Apr 27, 2007)

Not quite the point I was making, *geocad* .  

When I spoke of 'markers' I was talking about the obvious, overt, and above all, visible, racial characteristics that people latch on to when stereotyping ethnic groups.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 27, 2007)

interesting thread

My ancestors mostly came from northern Europe while the other part was native to this land. If I stay in the sun a long time my skin takes on a different color and my facial features are recognizable as native American but if I stay out of the sun my European features seem to dominate. 
When I lived in southern Calif. my skin and accent made me a foreigner to many and I was looked  upon with suspicion in some areas, while in other areas I was looked upon as "belonging" there


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## exile (Apr 27, 2007)

I have friends who are Serbian, and I've talked to one of them, who did her Ph.D. in our department, a good deal about her perception of ethnicity in what used to be Yugoslavia. From what I can gather, Serbs, Croats and Bosnians regard each other as three fundamentally different ethnicities. Same basic genetic stock, same language (some low-profile sub-dialect level differences)but Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Muslim, respectively, and boy, does that religious difference _make_ a difference! And I've heard the same from Northern Irish from two different sides of the Protestant /Catholic divide.

In Brazil, however, religion doesn't seem to play much of a role in definitions of ethnicitiesbut money does. Long ago I read a very disturbing little book by the anthropologist Marvin Harris (_Patterns of Race in the Americas_), in which he pointed out that two people from the same family in Brazil will be assigned to completely different `racial' categories depending on their relative prosperity. `Black' and `White' are the polar opposites on this scale, but skin color is almost irrelevant. Professional and financial status seem to be what's actually involved, and there is a palette of ethnic descriptors which, though they seem to be about skin color, actually, in practice, denote wealth and status. And people belonging to the groups so described see themselves as _ethnically_ different.

I've come to think that ethnicities are constructed by people on the basis of the `fault lines' in their particular society. Where the principal fault line is religion, as in the first two cases I mentioned, religion will have pride of place in the formation of ethnic identity. Where religion isn't a factor but economic differences are vast and significant, wealth will play the same role. Virtually anything which divides us can be made the basis of ethnic categorization. 

I wonder what that says about us.... ?


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 29, 2007)

exile said:


> I have friends who are Serbian, and I've talked to one of them, who did her Ph.D. in our department, a good deal about her perception of ethnicity in what used to be Yugoslavia. From what I can gather, Serbs, Croats and Bosnians regard each other as three fundamentally different ethnicities. Same basic genetic stock, same language (some low-profile sub-dialect level differences)but Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Muslim, respectively, and boy, does that religious difference _make_ a difference! And I've heard the same from Northern Irish from two different sides of the Protestant /Catholic divide.
> 
> In Brazil, however, religion doesn't seem to play much of a role in definitions of ethnicitiesbut money does. Long ago I read a very disturbing little book by the anthropologist Marvin Harris (_Patterns of Race in the Americas_), in which he pointed out that two people from the same family in Brazil will be assigned to completely different `racial' categories depending on their relative prosperity. `Black' and `White' are the polar opposites on this scale, but skin color is almost irrelevant. Professional and financial status seem to be what's actually involved, and there is a palette of ethnic descriptors which, though they seem to be about skin color, actually, in practice, denote wealth and status. And people belonging to the groups so described see themselves as _ethnically_ different.
> 
> ...


 
That is a very disturbing social construct at work in Brazil.  I can see that it speaks to some very fundamental aspects of our nature and society though.  

There seems to be, in European-descended cultures anyway, a need to categorise everything.  I believe that this stems from the foundations of our philosophy and science which are grounded in separating and analysing.  It is simply the way we go about understanding something.  

On the other hand, in our psychology there is a very real need to be better than others.  This may be an ancient hangover from dominance and mating rituals, but it is still a powerful driving force in our lives.

Now we see a blending of these two things to produce this need to categorise people so that one can judge as to whether they are better or worse than oneself.  It is about self-esteem, regardless as to whether the subject of our categorisation is better or worse, simply knowing the relationship makes us feel better.


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## donald (Apr 30, 2007)

Would'nt one's cultural/ethnic heritage be through one's parental lineage? Then enforced through their enviroment? 

1stJohn1:9


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## Grendel (May 2, 2007)

Sukerkin

Being English from the midlands I think you will find that you are about 70% Engel (not Angle the latinised form) and the rest a mix of viking and celt with a very small drop of norman, they did not bring many over, it was not colonisation. I am from the south and my family name comes from Glous and Oxon meaning I would be mainly Saxon.


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## Sukerkin (May 2, 2007)

One thing to bear in mind when discussion the dissemination of genes, is that it doesn't take all that many of a given phenotype in any given line to significantly alter the proportions.

Of course, my knowledge of this line (no pun intended) of research all comes via other peoples research (and most especially from documentaries ) so I can not effectively argue any corner on this topic but merely parrot what I've heard.


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## Shaderon (May 2, 2007)

I very much doubt that the genes which created us are still in the exact same format anyway, even with so called "pure" lines.  From breeding rodents, which I used to do in my spare time, I found and read that a lot of the genetic variations are from very tiny but fast mutations that occur natually and are accepted or rejected by not only a survival of the species type selection but also through a selection which involves level of attractiveness to the opposite sex.

It's highly possible that no one is as pure bred as they think, just living in another country changes your genes.   If I give the wild Exmoor pony as an example, if not bred in it's native Exmoor it very quickly changes to suit it's environment and won't be branded as pure exmoor.  They get too tall, the colour variation is wrong, the head size varies too much, the temprement changes... all in ONE generation.   


So anyone who thinks they are genetically pure had better think again, in modern society we're all mutants from that era.


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## tellner (May 2, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> That is a very disturbing social construct at work in Brazil.  I can see that it speaks to some very fundamental aspects of our nature and society though.
> 
> There seems to be, in European-descended cultures anyway, a need to categorise everything.  I believe that this stems from the foundations of our philosophy and science which are grounded in separating and analysing.  It is simply the way we go about understanding something.



It's not just European. It's universal. In a way, I think the Brazilian version is less evil than the American one. Here if you've got "one drop" you're Black. And if you're Black, then there's a whole bunch of things you really can't escape. In Brazil there's always the possibility that you can change what you do and your conditions and move into a better social state. 

I'm thinking of an old college friend who is now a contractor, the contractor who works on our house when we have money. He got a Watson fellowship to go to Brazil and study Capoeira for a year. He stayed eight or nine years and was a street Capoerista most of that time. He's paler than I am - which is quite an accomplishment. But but because of the way he dressed, spoke Portugese, acted, lived and who he hung out with he was Black. Eventually, he says "I got tired of being Black and wanted a family and some money." So he changed his location, diction and all the rest and became White again. 

A lot of it is also due to Brazil's extremely varied genetics. Everyone has some odd chromosomes in the back pocket of his or her genes. And the country as a whole is proud of it. The human need to sort and pigeonhole gets expressed in other ways.


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