# Systema + another art?



## Azzazzin (May 10, 2003)

I am training Systema with Vlad in Thornhill, but there really is no conditioning...

Don't get me wrong, I love Systema, but I need something like boxing/kickboxing to really get me in shape...

But I was wondering if it would effect my Systema, and effect my movement and relaxation?

So which do you think is better to combind with Systema (if at all): American boxing or Mauy Thai kickboxing?

Thanks

-Azzazzin


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## Arthur (May 10, 2003)

> but there really is no conditioning...


ROFLOL Ah yeah right... I think we'll have to make this a featured post over on the RMA site, just for the comedic value alone.

If you find those 20 count pushups, squats andsitups to be easy... then you don't _need_ anymore conditioning!

Arthur


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## D_Brady (May 10, 2003)

Conditioning is very important just to make through Arthurs classes.

 In some arts warm ups and conditioning take place just to kill time, but in systema it's a vital part of the system. The conditioning in Arthurs class kick my *** every week.

 :boxing:


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## Larry (May 10, 2003)

I take it you haven't told Vladimir you think he's being 'way too soft on you...

Here's a suggestion: make a simple polite request to Vladimir, Furtry or one of the other senior instructors to really give you a good conditioning workout.

I'm most confident they can have you do something to increase your cardio to the point where you're wheezing like a 20-year smoker with emphysema. Heck, I'm sure they can even give you chest pains!   

Similarly, just ask Vlad or Furtry to hit or kick you with something that will knock you across the room into the wall. I'm sure that will answer all the questions you have about the need to learn boxing!


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## Rommel (May 10, 2003)

I hope Vlad doesn't read your post or he's gonna kill us in our next workout. I'm dying as it is. Maybe there are masochists among us.


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## Kingston (May 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rommel _
> *I'm dying as it is. *



aw come on, its not _that_ bad  :cheers:


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## Azzazzin (May 11, 2003)

I can do the pushups easy, I just run out of energy at the end because I just quit smoking (that's why I need to condition) but yeah the squats are hard...

I used to be an athlete, I just want to be able to retain my energy longer, which smoking has taken away from me...


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## NYCRonin (May 11, 2003)

Conditioning problem? Stamina lacking and you want to go to kickboxing for an aerobic conditioning effect? Run or better still, learn to jump rope like a boxer. boxing/kick or otherwise will make you a better boxer and do little to add to your Systema - other than making you the one who people like to demonstrate on.
   The RMA have many diverse conditioning exercises and, since you wrote that you are new to Thornhill, you aint seen nothing yet.
   Vlad does NOT fill his sessions with conditioning movements (unless he feels there is a particular need for emphasis with the group there that night) - there is so much more to learn about form and movement.
   Conditioning is an aspect that is best done as a supplement to RMA sessions - on your own time. Learning how to survive an actual encounter is more pressing than ones resting pulse rate - you gotta survive to have the pulse in the first place.


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## Rich_ (May 12, 2003)

I agree... like many people here, certainly from a Russian background, I feel that people aren't coming to my classes to learn how to do push-ups. Warm-ups are necessary, but busting yourself to muscle fatigue failure reduces your ability to learn and remember movements; totally counter-productive.

However, in answer to the question posed - if you want a martial art to complement the Russian stuff, and get in shape without boring yourself, I'd really recommend a grappling-heavy, sport-oriented art, judo or BJJ. You'll get a full workout, but at the same time you'll learn how to apply the relaxation and flow that Systema teaches. 

I've tried boxing, judo, BJJ, all sorts of things as interesting asides; I found that my ROSS training improved all of them, but most especially the grappling- and sparring-heavy arts, and that these also brought the most to my understanding of ROSS. Boxing is easier to muscle through.


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## platinum_angel (May 12, 2003)

dam* azz your 15 and you smoked


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## Azzazzin (May 12, 2003)

...weed for 5 years...


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## Azzazzin (May 12, 2003)

And I'm 16 (17 in July)


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## platinum_angel (May 13, 2003)

*shakes head*

all my friends smoke too i'm the only one who doesn't. one of my friends had been smoking for around 5 years to now he's hooked and has bonchitis coughs all the time. still asks me if i want one too but i say neh man.

my personal opinion is that people who smoke are weak minded.

glad you stoped but i doubt you did. good luck


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## Pervaz (May 13, 2003)

Me drops the cigarette down.

Weak willed ?  Possibly 

But I do enjoy it - even at almost $7 a pack of 20 !  

Pervaz


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## Mark Jakabcsin (May 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich_ _
> *I agree... like many people here, certainly from a Russian background, I feel that people aren't coming to my classes to learn how to do push-ups. Warm-ups are necessary, but busting yourself to muscle fatigue failure reduces your ability to learn and remember movements; totally counter-productive.
> *



I find this to be an interesting topic of discussion. I agree that if one is attempting to teach their body to precisely reproduced a pre-planned activity then muscle fatigue failure reduces ones ability to learn. One of my passions is bowhunting with traditional equipment. This requires the shooter to practce replicating an exact motion over and over again. In this endeavor practice doesn't make perfect, PERFECT practice makes perfect. Hence I never practice to exhaustion or even close. Short frequent training sets are far more affective.

This also holds true for many martial arts. Arts that require the practitioner to learn specific motions with precise angles, movements, timing and shapes are best learned/practiced when fresh or at least not totally exhausted. I am not familiar with the ROSS system so I can't comment on how learning takes place for that system. Perhaps someone can expand.

My understanding of Systema is that one is best served by not learning specific motions, movements, angles, etc but instead should focus on natural, efficient motion. With this in mind push-ups, squats, etc are a very important part of training. Exhaustion of large muscle groups AIDS in natural motion. When the body is exhausted it will generally move in the most efficient and natural manner possible to save on energy. The body will resistant  motions that are not efficient and substitute motions with the simplest and easiest answers.

Secondly, physical exhaustion affects the mind. In generally the consious mind keeps the body from moving naturally. We tend to over think our motions and use far more energy than necessary. We over tense muscle groups and even tense muscle groups that aren't needed. However, when the mind and body are exhausted we do the opposite and only use what is needed.

Over time it is the goal of the Systema practioner to move as naturally and efficiently as possilbe with as little consiuous thought as possible. Training when exhausted helps to teach the body/mind the potential of moving in such a manner and helps us to let go. Eventually natural motion is attainable without being exhausted. Therefore, my belief is that push-ups are an immensely important part of training and should be done continiously throughout a training class (for Systema). There are also many other lessons to be learned from push-ups but that requires a much longer post than I feel up to writing. 

I would like to hear the thoughts of those more experienced in Systema than myself. Please let me know if I am thinking along the right line.

mark


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## NYCRonin (May 14, 2003)

Mark
   I would say that the road you are on is one that will take you to where you seek to go - I will buy the first round of cold vodka when you get here.
RobG


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## RobP (May 15, 2003)

Great post Mark, I think you summed it up in a nutshell.


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## Arthur (May 15, 2003)

Nice post Mark. Though I think its important that the fatigue creating exercises not become a crunch. People need to learn to initiate their own relaxation, they need to come to inherently move efficiently and from the core.

When people come to rely on the fatigue producing exercises it becomes the same as people stretching for a half hour before class so they can "kick high". It becomes class relevent only and their skills become only existent in class.

The pushup (squat, situp, etc.) should be studied like any other piece of the art. There are lessons in it, that should be sought and understood, but perhaps like all other Systema practices their comes a time to hold on to the lesson and forget the practice.

Arthur


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## Rommel (May 15, 2003)

"People need to learn to initiate their own relaxation, they need to come to inherently move efficiently and from the core."

Great point. Vlad pointed out once that the main purpose of the exercises is not physical conditioning but learning how to coordinate breathing and movement. By doing many push-ups we learn what true relaxation is because we are supposed to do the push ups without tension but being held up by the bones and tendons. Push-ups, squats, and sit ups are always done with proper form. There are the 4 principles in action: Form, Movement, Breathing, and Relaxation. At the same time, you get a great physical work out, which makes sokoli stalina systema a perfect health system.


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## Jay Bell (May 15, 2003)

Good points, Rommel.  When we trained in San Diego, Vladimir kept stressing the pushups being based on structure...not on muscle.  By the end of the weekend, everything seemed in sync.  My muscles weren't really being worked very hard...everything smoothed out.

Unfortunately, I seem to have lost it...so I'm working on finding that place again.  It was pretty amazing to be doing an insane amount of pushups and be just fine.


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## Rommel (May 15, 2003)

On the topic of another art, we do a fair amount of combat grappling (combat sambo) here in Toronto, but I've heard many of the assistant instructors comment that any decent grappling art would definitely supplement your training and make you more well rounded. I know that my wrestling background has only been an asset.


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## Mark Jakabcsin (May 15, 2003)

Arthur & Rommel, 
Good points and one's I had considered writing in my orignal post but was too tired and lazy. I had just returned from a trip last night and was a bit wiped out. Of course I am packing today to leave on my next trip, Toronto, in the morning. 

mark


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## Rich_ (May 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mark Jakabcsin _
> *This also holds true for many martial arts. Arts that require the practitioner to learn specific motions with precise angles, movements, timing and shapes are best learned/practiced when fresh or at least not totally exhausted. I am not familiar with the ROSS system so I can't comment on how learning takes place for that system. Perhaps someone can expand.
> *



It's not connected with specific motions, merely training muscle memory. All arts and styles train some degree of muscle memory; in my experience, the Russians far more than most. Some people think of it as only applying to precise, dextrous movements - the sort of things that are the first to go out of the window in a pressure situatuion - it's not. Training flow, evasion, softness, all require subconscious response and muscle memory to take the place of paralysis by analysis. 

All muscle memory is harmed by fatigue. Whatever you gain from training that way, you will gain muscle memory far slower. 

So what do you gain? Physical conditioning. Familiarity with the willpower you need to go on when you're not sure if you can - in my view, probably *the* most valuable attribute for some people. Extreme fatigue symptoms mimic many adrenaline-rush symptoms - no fine motor control, loss of peripheral vision, etc - that make exhaustion-training a very good 'truth pill' for fighting approaches.

And, as you said, it teaches efficient motion very well - but you must know a little about how to move efficiently in the circumstances before you can apply it. Otherwise you would see perfect Russian movements from exhausted athletes, rather than their posture and breathing gradually degrading. Boxers don't get more efficient over time in a match; each round is more tiring than the last, until their fatigue saps their strength and their technique is reduced to nothing.



> *
> The body will resistant  motions that are not efficient and substitute motions with the simplest and easiest answers.
> *



The advantage of the Russian systems is that they offer movements that can be so utilised. But again, these movements have to be trained; the natural punch of an exhausted, highly stressed, untrained person is an exhausting haymaker - just watch a fight, in any culture. It's only by training to exhaustion, and feeling which movements feel most natural and efficient that you can utilise them.



> *
> Over time it is the goal of the Systema practioner to move as naturally and efficiently as possilbe with as little consiuous thought as possible. Training when exhausted helps to teach the body/mind the potential of moving in such a manner and helps us to let go. Eventually natural motion is attainable without being exhausted.
> *



That seems to my point of view backwards, or at least a less efficient way than to practice the motions and then refine them under fatigue. It may be a stylistic difference, though; I certainly agree that it is a good way to study efficiency.

I wholeheartedly agree with Arthur - take the lessons from training, not just the discomfort - but he put it far better than I could.


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## jellyman (May 16, 2003)

Rich_

I think the getting people to fight 'tired' thing may be part of the military tradition - on a spetz mission, the operative may have to deal with combatants after a long march or run, may be injured or sick or poisoned, may have had to go without food or water for a while, etc. The best way to prepare for that is to simulate it. Fighting tired also shows you what's sunk in - tired people will use the stuff that works on a primitive level - which may be just haymakers at first, but as training progresses, more systema comes out. This is from first-hand experience. All I can say is that VV has this way of teaching the spine.

This isn't just a systema thing btw. There was this Oscar DeLaHoya (sp) boxing match a little while ago, wherein ODLH had a grudge match against a slugger. He'd gone up a weight class to do it, and spent the first few rounds slugging it out, trying to get a KO. Well, as you may know, going up a weight class can interfere with endurance if done too quickly, and by the 5th round or so, ODLH was gassed, while the other guy was fresh. All of a sudden, ODLH changed styles. Back straight, arms dangling at his sides, he couldn't even lift his hands by arm power. Instead, he starts torquing the waist and throwing whip strikes and relying mostly on footwork for defense- I thought I was watching VV's H2H for a second. ODLH went on to win by KO a few rounds later - when he stopped trying to go for a KO and started fighting to survive.

Sometimes if the instructor feels that the students are being too tense, muscling too hard, s/he will make them tired so they relax more. Deep relaxation can be attained after deep tension - we do this in our tension/relaxation wave excercises as well.

Muscle memory? I've heard that term used in karate and jjj, but never in systema. Perhaps a definition of terms is in order there.

I remember going to VV's a couple months ago, and he was talking to someone else. He sees me, grins and grabs me in a 1-armed hug. Then he starts hitting my arm, over and over. At some point in the conversation, he is telling the guy that proper movement comes from the body not the head. To illustrate, instead of hitting my arm, he throws a punch at my chest. Of its own volition, my body moved just far enough so that he missed (I think the 'attack proof' guys call this "pocketing"). His explanation - the hitting had programmed that repsonse in me. At a deep level, I recognized when a hit would come from being hit so often.

Now, the muscle memory theory I grew up with would dictate that I'd have to practice 'pocketing' against a blow to the body repeatedly for a while before I could do it automaticaly.

It may well be that the teaching methods of the two styles differ.


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## Jay Bell (May 16, 2003)

> I remember going to VV's a couple months ago, and he was talking to someone else. He sees me, grins and grabs me in a 1-armed hug. Then he starts hitting my arm, over and over. At some point in the conversation, he is telling the guy that proper movement comes from the body not the head. To illustrate, instead of hitting my arm, he throws a punch at my chest. Of its own volition, my body moved just far enough so that he missed (I think the 'attack proof' guys call this "pocketing"). His explanation - the hitting had programmed that repsonse in me. At a deep level, I recognized when a hit would come from being hit so often.



We worked with this principle at the San Diego seminar.  We were working on psychic responses to people attacking...putting people down without physical contact.  Someone asked Vlad, "So, what if we run into someone that hasn't been conditioned this way?  Someone that has never been hit?"

Vlad chuckled and said, "Hit them, they'll learn it"


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## arnisador (May 16, 2003)

I know of other arts that use the idea of training after becoming exhausted--e.g. Sayoc Kali. Most grappling arts have this idea built in!

I might add Boxing to the list.


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## Rich_ (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jellyman _
> *Fighting tired also shows you what's sunk in - tired people will use the stuff that works on a primitive level - which may be just haymakers at first, but as training progresses, more systema comes out. This is from first-hand experience. All I can say is that VV has this way of teaching the spine.
> *



I agree completely. Get the skills to the point where it becomes a matter of concentration *not* to do them; whether pocketing a blow, sprawling against a shoot, keeping the back of your hands towards any knife danger.



> *
> All of a sudden, ODLH changed styles. Back straight, arms dangling at his sides, he couldn't even lift his hands by arm power. Instead, he starts torquing the waist and throwing whip strikes and relying mostly on footwork for defense- I thought I was watching VV's H2H for a second.
> *



Sounds a lot like Naseem Hamed's style, too - really exciting to watch. And it sounds like he'd been concentrating on not fighting that way - it really saps your energy. 



> *
> Muscle memory? I've heard that term used in karate and jjj, but never in systema. Perhaps a definition of terms is in order there.
> <snip>
> Now, the muscle memory theory I grew up with would dictate that I'd have to practice 'pocketing' against a blow to the body repeatedly for a while before I could do it automaticaly.
> *



Well, I'm not a neurophysiologist, so apologies for any woolliness.  There are a few fundamental movements - common, it seems, to ROSS and Systema - twisting the body. A lot of the improvements in my working of the system has come directly from improvements in the whole-body co-ordination of body twists, arm deflections. And it's something that, in one form or another, is practised dozens of times a week. So training your body to roll and twist becomes a second nature, and gets progressively easier the more you do it. 

Now, it's almost certainly not pure muscle memory, as it involves sensory input, but having the motions memorised and called-up for action is what I was talking about. At that stage, the motions come to the fore and can be really refined by exhaustion training.


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## Paul Genge (Aug 18, 2004)

When I first visited Vlad's he had just come back from Moscow.  After the usual introductions he explainined that Michael had made them do lots of exercises during his trip and it had reminded him how he was taught. This should have been a clue that the next six weeks would be challenging.

The first week we did nothing, but exercises and breathing.  The second week he started to introduce a little other work towards the end of the lesson.  Through the following weeks the periods of exercise decreased while the periods of other work increased.  In one lesson we rolled side to side from our fronts onto our backs and then back again for 1 hour.  

At the end of that trip I was probably the fittest I have ever been, but more importantly I could breath.  Infact I was sometimes so worn out that I could not climb the stairs in the hostel unless I breathed.

I have some exercise and training drills on my website for anyone looking for some ideas.  http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

Paul Genge


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