# OK, who do I trust???



## allenjp (May 13, 2008)

Who do you guys consider a reliable author on ninjutsu? Hatsumi alone? the ancient japanese texts? Hatsumi and some of his students? Tanemura?

It's all so confusing. I went to B & N yesterday to try to find good books on the subject, and most of the books I found were by Ashida Kim and Haha Lung (the irony of the name "haha" is just comical), and had titles like "Ninja mind control", etc...and I just had to laugh. 

But what about Stephen Hayes? Is he considered a reliable author? He was supposed to have been hatsumi's first American student right? Or is that just BS too? His books had a lot of that "mystical ninja" stuff too.

Help!!!


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## Bob Hubbard (May 13, 2008)

My opinion is, Hayes is fairly reliable as a former leading student of Hatsumi. Kim and Lung's connection to ninjutsu is shakey at best.  You'll find Hayes has his detractors since going out on his own with his own system. I do recall seeing at least 1 book by Dr. Hatsumi at Borders or B&N recently though.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 13, 2008)

allenjp said:


> But what about Stephen Hayes? Is he considered a reliable author?


 
No.



allenjp said:


> He was supposed to have been hatsumi's first American student right?


 
No.


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## allenjp (May 13, 2008)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> No.
> 
> 
> 
> No.


 
Thank you! I was about to go insane when I read some of the things he wrote.

Just hatsumi then? Turnbull maybe?


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## rutherford (May 14, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Thank you! I was about to go insane when I read some of the things he wrote.
> 
> Just hatsumi then? Turnbull maybe?



As an FYI, there is some controversy around *Ninjutsu: History and Tradition*.  The basic gist of it is that it was written by Hayes and my have some inaccuracies.

When an English language version of Kacem Zoughari's book is released, I look forward to reading it.


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## allenjp (May 14, 2008)

rutherford said:


> As an FYI, there is some controversy around *Ninjutsu: History and Tradition*. The basic gist of it is that it was written by Hayes and my have some inaccuracies.
> 
> When an English language version of Kacem Zoughari's book is released, I look forward to reading it.


 
Aha! Come to think of it, I believe that was the book I was looking at. Why would Hatsumi allow his name to be put on something that Hayes wrote? It didn't say Hayes anywhere on it...

BTW, what in what language is Zoughari's book written? (maybe I can read it now)


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## allenjp (May 14, 2008)

Correction...the book I was looking at was named "The way of the NINJA, secret techniques" by Hatsumi. Guess I'm back to square one...


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## punisher73 (May 14, 2008)

I guess it all comes down to what are you looking for exactly in the books.  Is it viable, workable information?  If so than some of the controversial authors can fit that bill. If what you want is the authentic practices and history than it might be better to stick with Hatsumi.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 14, 2008)

I think it is safe to say that if you stick with Hatsumi Sensei's books, DVD's, video's, etc. that you will be happy.


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## kwaichang (May 14, 2008)

SKH was the FIRST AMERICAN student of Hatsumi Sensei.  The story behind that is one of legend among his students.

SKH was trained, given rank and sanction by Hatsumi Sensei; his knowledge and teachings are fact based.  His new training reflects western acceptance of teaching methods and has been developed with that in mind, in addition to using effective techniques for modern day living while still incorporating ancient weapons skills.

I've trained with Stephen and been to Japan to train with Hatsumi Sensei. Tanemura Sensei was still with him at that time.  Tanemura Sensei is a very proficient technician and knows the Ryu's history and techniques as well as anyone can.

Hatsumi Sensei did do a few books later on, after the "ninja craze" started growing, and they are excellent.

SKH has a series of books; whether you get them off line at his site or from Amazon, they are excellent in history, technique and yes give you some of the mystical background of the ninja as well.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 14, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> SKH was the FIRST AMERICAN student of Hatsumi Sensei.


 
Nope.



kwaichang said:


> SKH has a series of books; whether you get them off line at his site or from Amazon, they are excellent in history, technique and yes give you some of the mystical background of the ninja as well.


 
OK - one last chance to offer proof before I pass you off as a troll.


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## rjhb (May 14, 2008)

Originally Posted by kwaichang  View Post
SKH was the FIRST AMERICAN student of Hatsumi Sensei.



Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Nope.
> 
> Who was then?


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## Dale Seago (May 14, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> SKH was the FIRST AMERICAN student of Hatsumi Sensei.  The story behind that is one of legend among his students.



Oops, I hit "thanks" instead of "quote".

Anyway, "legend" is certainly an appropriate description since an American named Terry Dobson (well-known later as an aikido instructor) was training with Hatsumi sensei before Hayes. In fact, it was Dobson who introduced an Israeli named Doron Navon to Sensei and got him involved in the training. . .which also occurred before Hayes began.


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## jks9199 (May 14, 2008)

Dale Seago said:


> Oops, I hit "thanks" instead of "quote".
> 
> Anyway, "legend" is certainly an appropriate description since an American named Terry Dobson (well-known later as an aikido instructor) was training with Hatsumi sensei before Hayes. In fact, it was Dobson who introduced an Israeli named Doron Navon to Sensei and got him involved in the training. . .which also occurred before Hayes began.


 
So... was Hayes the first to be awarded a teaching license, train extensively, or something else that might have merely been misrepresented?  Was the time frame close enough for relatively innocent confusion?  Or did Hayes just promote himself very well?


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## Dale Seago (May 15, 2008)

In the questions lie the answer.


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## Imua Kuntao (May 15, 2008)

First, you shouldn't laugh at any of it. People will do automatically the same things under certain circumstances, as an example,a person gets arrested, they will say things to the arresting officer or transporting officer to try to get himself of of trouble. I have seen people try to control others thru the work place, " I am going to get her to go out with me", and then they proceed to try and make that happen, or like micro management. All the things ninja did or know had/have their place/time to be used. It all depends on the job/assignment at hand, watching and predicting the weather for assaults, counting enemy soldiers..... and of course the acting. And no, if you are a ninja, you should not trust anyone. As far as authority, depends on how serious you are about your trainning and what you will do with your knowledge. There are real ninja and they practice under everybody's noses.


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## kwaichang (May 15, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> So... was Hayes the first to be awarded a teaching license, train extensively, or something else that might have merely been misrepresented?


 
No misrepresentation, if there was a small lap over in time, no one at the time was aware of it and my information doesn't confirm that part.  As for D. Navon, he was training with Hatsumi and I met him at Hatsumi Sensei's personal training village.
Hatsumi promoted Stephen and the events were witnessed and in most cases photographed.  Hatsumi encouraged Stephen to "take this art back to the world" and also advised him when a personal art was being developed *(and sanctioned by H.).


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## kwaichang (May 15, 2008)

A little digging to help clarify some facts.

Terry Dobson was uchi-deshi to Ueshiba until his marriage in 1964.
In 1970 Dobson returned to the U.S. In 1979 he moved to San Francisco.

Stephen K. Hayes was the original American _uchi-deshi_ disciple of ninja grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi in the 1970s, having "found" the ninja master in June of '75.

Hatsumi Sensei's own words at that meeting: "Americans have visited our training hall, but we have never taught them the true techinques of our system. We have never let an Amercian stay and study with us."
...The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art, Pub by Charles Tuttle Co., Japan, 1981 author SKH


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## Kreth (May 15, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Hatsumi Sensei's own words at that meeting: "Americans have visited our training hall, but we have never taught them the true techinques of our system. We have never let an Amercian stay and study with us."
> ...The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art, Pub by Charles Tuttle Co., Japan, 1981 *author SKH*


I think that says it all really (emphasis mine)...


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## Dale Seago (May 16, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> A little digging to help clarify some facts.
> 
> . . .Stephen K. Hayes was the original American _uchi-deshi_ disciple of ninja grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi in the 1970s, having "found" the ninja master in June of '75.



Um. . .Do you happen to know what the term _uchi-deshi_ means? I don't think even any of Hatsumi sensei's Japanese students ever fit into that category.


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## Dale Seago (May 16, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> As for D. Navon, he was training with Hatsumi and I met him at Hatsumi Sensei's personal training village.



What "personal training village"?


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## kwaichang (May 16, 2008)

Dale Seago said:


> Um. . .Do you happen to know what the term _uchi-deshi_ means? I don't think even any of Hatsumi sensei's Japanese students ever fit into that category.


 
I cannot believe you actually put thought into that question.
The basic definition is:
*Uchi-deshi* (&#20869;&#24351;&#23376;:&#12358;&#12385;&#12391;&#12375;, _*Uchi-deshi*_?) is a Japanese term for a live-in student who trains under and assists a sensei, on a full-time basis. (From _uchi_ for "inside" and _deshi_ for "student"). The term is most commonly used in the _bud&#333;_ arts.

As for the rest of the statement; you are wrong again. I'm not going to "ping pong" such disrespective posts.


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## kwaichang (May 16, 2008)

Dale Seago said:


> What "personal training village"?


 
It's called "yomura mura" (I've lost the original spelling) and was set up by Hatsumi Sensei personally.  The location is outside of Noda City.  Some of us have trained there, Americans, Israeli's, Auzzies, etc.


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## llong (May 16, 2008)

Do you mean the Hombu?

Do you have any proof that SKH was Soke's Uchi Deshi that doesn't come from SKH?


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## kwaichang (May 16, 2008)

No I don't mean the Hombu; I know of what I post.

Those who know ,do not need further information while those who do not know and refuse to know unless they experience for themselves, can be left to themselves.

I refuse to play this game any further.


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## Dale Seago (May 16, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> The basic definition is:
> *Uchi-deshi* (&#20869;&#24351;&#23376;:&#12358;&#12385;&#12391;&#12375;, _*Uchi-deshi*_?) is a Japanese term for a live-in student who trains under and assists a sensei, on a full-time basis. (From _uchi_ for "inside" and _deshi_ for "student"). The term is most commonly used in the _bud&#333;_ arts.



The reason I wondered is that per my own conversations with SKH in the early 80s he was working for a living while he was there in order to support his training (hence hardly training/assisting full-time), and was not living in Soke's home or dojo.

That in turn made me wonder if you knew what you were talking about regarding Yumoa Mura, which as it turns out you did.


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## nitflegal (May 28, 2008)

While I understand that many of the books from a variety of authors were written a little too soon along the training path (and have heard the authors say as much) I've found things of training value in Hayes' books, Hoban's, Charles Daniel's, etc.  Jack Hoban's books on tantojutsu and bojutsu are quite nice, if you can find them.  Hayes' Contemporary Publishing books seem a little dated but there's certainly some good information in there, same as with his spiral bound books from the early 90's.  Mind you, I really like Hatsumi-soke's new HB series of books.

If it's history alone that one is after, I get the feeling that most of the older published work is pretty questionable.  Heck, I remember when I thought I was studying ninjutsu way back when.  It's kind of odd to actually be seeing bits and pieces of the actual ninjutsu schools.

For what it's worth,
Matt


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 29, 2008)

*Dale is right on the money as always.*  SKH was never an uchi-deshi with Hatsumi Sensei.  To my knowledge no one ever has been and that knowledge seems to be quantified by my contacts in Japan.

According to everyone I know who is as high up as you can go in the Bujinkan Terry Dobson was the first American to train with Hatsumi Sensei and I thought Doron Navon was before him but will bow to Dale's expertiste on the time line there.  Doron was simply awesome and I personally liked training with him at his seminars when he visited the UofM in Ann Arbor. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Now SKH really promoted Hatsumi Sensei and Togakure Ryu with his books and road the ninja craze back in the day.  He was important to the growth of the Bujinkan in America and around the world.  However his books are loaded with his interpretations and ideas and they are not reflected necessarily in Hatsumi Senseis teachings. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*In the end if you want it right go to the source!*


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## canit (Jul 7, 2008)

Long time lurker, first time poster.  I am going to hit on a few items so please bear with me.


Stephen Hayes was never an uchi-deshi of Hatsumi-sensei.  As Dale Seago has written, Mr. Hayes was working far from Noda to support himself and certainly was not living anywhere near Hatsumi-sensei.


Doron Navon was the first foreigner, western world or otherwise, to be licensed by Hatsumi-sensei to teach outside of Japan.  He was the first non-Japanese Shidoshi.  This is fact.


As mentioned, it was Terry Dobson who introduced most of the foreigners visiting Hatsumi-sensei in the early days; Quintin Chambers, Danny Waxman, Doron Navon, et al.  Stephen Hayes' introduction to Hatsumi-sensei was also facilitated by another foreigner residing in Japan and training with Hatsumi-sensei at the time.  For some reason this person's presence is not acknowledged in "Ninja & Their Secret Fighting Art".


The name "Yumoa" is a phonetic corruption of the english word "Humor".  Yumoa Mura = Humor Village.  A rural ninja theme park! 

It was a small cluster of old buildings turned in to an attraction for the hotel near Mt. Tsubaki.  Hatsumi-sensei donated a variety of weapons and photographs.  The first Taikai was held there, and various Shihan took groups up there to train.  

I went up there a few times with different Shihan and small groups of foreigners.  The caretaker was always happy to see us.  

I got the impression Bujinkan people were expected to go up there, especially on the weekends.  Nothing like having 'real ninja' training in/around your 'ninja-house'; taijutsu,  throwing shuriken, rescuing people lost in the secret corridors, etc.

It was very cool to go up there.  The old farmhouse and shrine nearby really set the scene, however it was not Hatsumi-sensei's "personal training village". :BSmeter:


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## tellner (Jul 7, 2008)

Just as a first cut...

If they don't know that "shinobi jutsu" was part of the curriculum of many traditional martial arts they probably don't know what they're talking about. If they don't know about the inclusion of many or most "ninja" into the Japanese secret police and the privileges like pensions, salaries, exemption from tolls and road taxes and free entry into theaters that came with taking the Shogun's mom'me you might want to look elsewhere. Extra points if they've heard of the "Shakuhachi Ryu" and can tell you something about it.


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 22, 2008)

allenjp said:


> But what about Stephen Hayes? Is he considered a reliable author? He was supposed to have been hatsumi's first American student right? Or is that just BS too? His books had a lot of that "mystical ninja" stuff too.
> 
> Help!!!



Anshu Hayes is the best source you can find about ninjutsu in English. The politics of ninjutsu are very complex. There are even people that try to say that Anshu is not a student of Hatsumi sensei anymore. That is a complete lie. Anyone who asks Anshu will find out the truth. He is, and always will remain the senior student of Hatsumi sensei outside of Japan. In the Japanese way of doing things, that means we all owe him our respect and loyalty. 

Do not listen to those that try to tear him down due to their jealousy. Instead ask him if you wish to find out the truth.


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## Kreth (Jul 22, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> Anshu Hayes is the best source you can find about ninjutsu in English.


Hmmmm. Dale Seago, Sean Askew, Peter King, Jeff Mueller, Wade Goodner, Bud Malmstrom, Jack Hoban, and many, many others have far surpassed Hayes' mat time in Japan. 



> The politics of ninjutsu are very complex. There are even people that try to say that Anshu is not a student of Hatsumi sensei anymore. That is a complete lie.


So the Bujinkan members living in Japan who confirmed this are incorrect?



> Anyone who asks Anshu will find out the truth.


Two words, P R...



> He is, and always will remain the senior student of Hatsumi sensei outside of Japan.


Doron Navon (you know who he is, right?) would be surprised to hear this. As would the people in the list above, and all the others who have much more time in Japan actually training with Hatsumi sensei.



> In the Japanese way of doing things, that means we all owe him our respect and loyalty.


Why? I've never been his student. I think the man is very skilled, yes, but others have surpassed him in terms of knowledge and skill. 



> Do not listen to those that try to tear him down due to their jealousy. Instead ask him if you wish to find out the truth.


I don't understand why the jealousy card has to be thrown every time this debate rises from the dead. Hayes had a great thing going, and he *was* the top dog in America (note: not outside of Japan), but now he's doing his own thing. That's not bad, it is what it is.


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 22, 2008)

---Hmmmm. Dale Seago, Sean Askew, Peter King, Jeff Mueller, Wade Goodner, Bud Malmstrom, Jack Hoban, and many, many others have far surpassed Hayes' mat time in Japan. 

All of those people never had the experiences that Anshu did. They came later after the art was more open and some things had to be kept out of what was taught.

---So the Bujinkan members living in Japan who confirmed this are incorrect?

They are part of the game going on. They just can't stand the idea of someone knowing more than them and they know that Anshu is far more skilled than they will be. No matter what stories they spread, they will never drive a wedge between Hatsumi sensei and Anshu.

--Two words, P R...

No, the truth.

---Doron Navon (you know who he is, right?) would be surprised to hear this. As would the people in the list above, and all the others who have much more time in Japan actually training with Hatsumi sensei.

As I said, they just never learned all that much because of the situation. And Anshu lived in Japan and trained for many, many years in the 1980s. He even had a home. Did you know that before you said what you did? There are many things you could learn if you only went to the source and not the jealous folks that try to tear Anshu down.

--Why? I've never been his student. I think the man is very skilled, yes, but others have surpassed him in terms of knowledge and skill. 

No they have not.

--I don't understand why the jealousy card has to be thrown every time this debate rises from the dead. Hayes had a great thing going, and he *was* the top dog in America (note: not outside of Japan), but now he's doing his own thing. That's not bad, it is what it is.

He has expanded on the knowledge. But everything that you can learn in Bujinkan can also be found in Toshindo. The opposite is not true. People just don't like the idea of Anshu being so much better than them in both the traditional and the practical sides of the art.


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## Kreth (Jul 22, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> All of those people never had the experiences that Anshu did. They came later after the art was more open and some things had to be kept out of what was taught.


Have you trained with or even spoken to any of the people I named? If not, how can you speak to their experiences? I've trained with all of them, and Hayes. 



> No matter what stories they spread, they will never drive a wedge between Hatsumi sensei and Anshu.


That ship has already sailed, and it wasn't due to the actions of others...



> No, the truth.


No, PR, as in public relations, as in what sounds good for his franchise business.



> As I said, they just never learned all that much because of the situation.


You're kidding, right? Doron Navon in particular was training with Hatsumi sensei *before* Hayes.



> And Anshu lived in Japan and trained for many, many years in the 1980s. He even had a home. Did you know that before you said what you did?


I knew he lived in Japan, yes. "Many, many years" is debatable.



> There are many things you could learn if you only went to the source and not the jealous folks that try to tear Anshu down.


I've been to the source. It's in Noda-shi (well, technically Atago). What sources do you have?



> He has expanded on the knowledge. But everything that you can learn in Bujinkan can also be found in Toshindo.


Cool. So would you like to explain a little about Roppo Kuji no Biken from your Toshindo training?



> People just don't like the idea of Anshu being so much better than them in both the traditional and the practical sides of the art.


And again with the jealousy card. :idunno:


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 22, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Have you trained with or even spoken to any of the people I named? If not, how can you speak to their experiences? I've trained with all of them, and Hayes.
> 
> 
> That ship has already sailed, and it wasn't due to the actions of others...



Ah yes, Anshu talks about people like you.

In the first paragraph, you demand that I speak to everyone you talked about or else I do not know the truth. But in the second, you say things about something you have never talked to either Hatsumi sensei or Anshu about.

Do you see the double standards?

So unless you have talked to Hatsumi sensei or Anshu, BY YOUR OWN LOGIC you can't say anything about their relationship.

And I have talked to Anshu about it. And he has talked to Hatsumi sensei and even gotten letters and rank certificates from him. The stories of him being kicked out of the Bujinkan are a lie and BY YOUR OWN LOGIC you are in no position to say otherwise.


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## Kreth (Jul 22, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> Ah yes, Anshu talks about people like you.


And I didn't even get him a card...



> In the first paragraph, you demand that I speak to everyone you talked about or else I do not know the truth. But in the second, you say things about something you have never talked to either Hatsumi sensei or Anshu about.


Please don't twist my words. I was saying that I have trained with the people I named, as well as Hayes, and I find the people I named to be more skilled.
The whole blowup about Hayes' Bujinkan status occured after my last trip to Japan. But I have been in contact with friends in Japan who were there when Hatsumi sensei removed Hayes' plaque from the rank board and announced that Bujinkan members who trained with him would no longer be welcome at Honbu. So I'm not going to waste Hatsumi's time asking about a done deal.



> Do you see the double standards?


I see you trying to mesh two discrete points I was attempting to make into some bizarre sort of straw man argument. :idunno:



> The stories of him being kicked out of the Bujinkan are a lie and BY YOUR OWN LOGIC you are in no position to say otherwise.


Ok, so to summarize:


Hayes has not been kicked out of the Bujinkan.
Hayes is the anointed disciple of Hatsumi sensei outside of Japan and we should all bask in his august splendor.
Anyone who says otherwise is a jealous liar.
There is no #4.
Does that pretty much cover it?


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## Cryozombie (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> There are even people that try to say that Anshu is not a student of Hatsumi sensei anymore.



Yes, Hatsumi said this



Toshindo4ever said:


> That is a complete lie. Anyone who asks Anshu will find out the truth.


 
So, you are calling Hatsumi a Liar and saying that Hayes word is better than his.  I wonder, if "ANSHU" is such a precious student of Hatsumi how he would feel about some random student of one of his schools calling his benefactor a liar.



Toshindo4ever said:


> In the Japanese way of doing things, that means we all owe him our respect and loyalty.


 
No, if you really believed that YOU would be showing some to Hatsumi. 



Toshindo4ever said:


> Do not listen to those that try to tear him down due to their jealousy. Instead ask him if you wish to find out the truth


 
Why, oh WHY, would Hatsumi be Jealous of _*Hayes*_?  Hahahaha.  You are ****ing kidding me right? 

FACT:  Hatsumi PUBLICALLY REMOVED HAYES RANK FROM THE WALL.  IT WAS WITNESSED BY DOZENS OF STUDENTS, MANY OF THEM SHIHAN.  But YOU would have us believe that EVERYONE present conspired out of Jealousy and that Dozens of witnesses "fabricated" this together, but ONE MAN, (Hayes) is telling the truth.

Cmon, really now.  Really. Are you that Naive? Say, didja know I own the original Sword used by Yoritomo?  Nevermind the fact that it looks JUST like a Paul Chen Practical, thats where he got the design from, yeah, that's it... I'll let you have it for 1000 bucks man... Actually I have 2 of them...


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> Yes, Hatsumi said this



So you talked to him about it? I think not.

You all have been led astray by the stories of petty little folks who have their own agendas instead of asking either Hatsumi sensei or Anshu themselves. Well, I have not talked to Hatsumi sensei about it but I have the word straight from Anshu that he still is a member of the Bujinkan. And he is someone that can be trusted. He is not someone who hides behind a computer screen.


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## newtothe dark (Jul 23, 2008)

WOW this goes on and on. What a shame. Anshu Hayes is doing His thing it is seperate and good for many The Buj is its thing and good for many. Sma goes for Gen, and Jen respectively so let it go, Preaching on forums will never convert anyone or really change their opinion. Joust my humble thoughts.


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

Maybe idiots and cult members will not listen to the truth. But Anshu is still the longest serving student of Hatsumi sensei. There are those that would love to take his students away from him by saying that he does not know Bujinkan or is not a student of Hatsumi sensei anymore.

Do you really think it would help people to let others convince them that they should not study with the greatest student of Hatsumi sensei in America?


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## Kreth (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> ...cult members will not listen to the truth.


You do realize how ironic this statement is, right?


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

Kreth said:


> You do realize how ironic this statement is, right?



I have communicated with Anshu over the matter. Have you? Have you gotten a statement from Hatsumi sensei himself about the matter, or are you going by what others with their own agendas have been saying?

Are you afraid to admit you were fooled? Or are you looking to gain by tearing down a great man?

I see that one of the biggest rumor mongers used to be a moderator here. I consider this unfriendly territory. But the truth must get out. You can't find anything by Anshu that says that he is no longer a student of Hatsumi sensei. Unless you want to get the real story straight from him, you are merely dealing with heresay.


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## Kreth (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> I have communicated with Anshu over the matter. Have you? Have you gotten a statement from Hatsumi sensei himself about the matter, or are you going by what others with their own agendas have been saying?


No, I've spoken with several people *who were there*, at Honbu, when Hatsumi sensei made the announcement. I fail to see what possible agenda they could have, since many are still living and training in Japan. 



> You can't find anything by Anshu that says that he is no longer a student of Hatsumi sensei.


Of course you won't. That would be bad for business.



> Unless you want to get the real story straight from him, you are merely dealing with heresay.


Did you mean hearsay or heresy? :idunno:


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## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2008)

Kreth said:


> > Quote:
> > Originally Posted by *Toshindo4ever*
> >
> >
> ...



No, I don't think he does.

It's quite simple to me.  Whatever his current relationship to the Bujinkan organization or Hatsumi directly, Hayes made very important contributions to the martial arts in the US, and is probably one of the people most responsible for sharing Hatsumi's art in the West.  But he's definitely moved on in his own path, also, and what he is teaching is not the same as what's being taught in the Bujinkan today.  I'm not qualified to say if it's close enough to be the same or different enough to be new -- but those who are seem to think it's different.


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Of course you won't. That would be bad for business.



So you are trying to say that Anshu is not telling the whole truth. That is not the type of person he is. I know him and he would never do anything like this.

I see your agenda, and I see that you are a moderator. My communication with you is over. I won't be banned for arguing with someone who obviously has an agenda and has the power you do.


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> No, I don't think he does.
> Whatever his current relationship to the Bujinkan organization or Hatsumi directly, Hayes made very important contributions to the martial arts in the US, and is probably one of the people most responsible for sharing Hatsumi's art in the West.  But he's definitely moved on in his own path, also, and what he is teaching is not the same as what's being taught in the Bujinkan today.



Since you seem to be an honest seeker of truth, I will respond to what YOU wrote.

You confuse the fact that Anshu teaches other things outside of Bujinkan with the idea that he can't teach Bujinkan.

The simple truth is that you can't find anything in Toshindo that you won't also find in Bujinkan. But there is also other things taken from other arts and real life experiences that are also taught as well.

So if you want to learn Gyokko ryu or bojutsu, you can still learn it in Toshindo just as well if not better than Bujinkan dojos. But you will also get to use red suits and other things in addition.

Toshindo added things, it did not drop anything from the Bujinkan. And Anshu is still gaining new knowledge about the Bujinkan despite what you may hear. Go ahead and get the story from the source instead of from the internet.


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## newtothe dark (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> Since you seem to be an honest seeker of truth, I will respond to what YOU wrote.
> 
> You confuse the fact that Anshu teaches other things outside of Bujinkan with the idea that he can't teach Bujinkan.
> 
> ...


 
Okay whats this about "Red Suits"???????


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## The Last Legionary (Jul 23, 2008)

Hayes may teach material based on what he learned while he was actively training with Hatsumi, but he is not teaching current Bujinkan material. He (Hayes) himself stated that "I was captivated by the idea of translating the gift of Hatsumi Sensei's lessons into a form that could serve my own culture and people back in America."

Translated. It is a known fact that things change when translated.  The heart, the intent, might be there, but over time Hayes ToShinDo has evolved into a completely different art than the current Bujinkan Taijutsu, though both do share many common roots.

Enjoy the art you do, stop sucking on the tit of the kool aid monster and drop te mask of the "True Believer" and you'll have more fun here.


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## The Last Legionary (Jul 23, 2008)

newtothe dark said:


> Okay whats this about "Red Suits"???????


Probaby the Red Man armor suits.  Great for sparring and beating the snot out of each other full tilt.


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## Grenadier (Jul 23, 2008)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

_Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

The Last Legionary said:


> Hayes may teach material based on what he learned while he was actively training with Hatsumi, but he is not teaching current Bujinkan material.



As I said in another thread, when talking about traditions hundreds of years old, the idea of "current" training is silly.

The idea that the art had to be modified so that those who do not have the skills or relationship Anshu does must drive some people nuts. And that is the reason for all the rumors that what he does is not correct, that he did not spend as much time as he says in Japan and all the other stuff that just does not stand up under the light of truth.


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## Kreth (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> As I said in another thread, when talking about traditions hundreds of years old, the idea of "current" training is silly.


While I'm sure you'd like to believe that Bujinkan training is stagnant, I have seen Hatsumi sensei teach pistol techniques several times, for example. AFAIK, they didn't exist hundreds of years ago :idunno:


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## The Last Legionary (Jul 23, 2008)

Americans and Japanese do things differently, have different "minds". Few Americans will let go of their "culture" to see through the others eyes. Hayes may have done that, but most of his students won't. You are a good example of this. 

Comments about how much/little on the mat time he has spent the last years in Japan are all over the place.  What Stephen Hayes does now is not what Dr. Hatsumi does now. They teach two different arts, that share in part, a common root.

The fact that the two arts are separate, has been made clear by both gentlemen, on several occasions.



Toshindo4ever said:


> As I said in another thread, when talking about traditions hundreds of years old, the idea of "current" training is silly.
> 
> The idea that the art had to be modified so that those who do not have the skills or relationship Anshu does must drive some people nuts. And that is the reason for all the rumors that what he does is not correct, that he did not spend as much time as he says in Japan and all the other stuff that just does not stand up under the light of truth.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> Maybe idiots and cult members will not listen to the truth.



Yes, this you made this clear in your posts.  Idiots and Cult members do not listen to the truth.

Say, how much have you shelled out to Hayes for your "Teach yourself to be a Ninja at home in your spare time" home study course anyhow? :lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao:


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## arnisador (Jul 23, 2008)

Kreth said:


> While I'm sure you'd like to believe that Bujinkan training is stagnant, I have seen Hatsumi sensei teach pistol techniques several times, for example. AFAIK, they didn't exist hundreds of years ago



Pistol disarms techniques are new in ninjutsu? That's surprising, since pistols in Europe date to the 1400s and firearms have been in Japan since at least the 1500s. Why didn't ninjas develop ways to deal with them?


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## Kreth (Jul 23, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Pistol disarms techniques are new in ninjutsu? That's surprising, since pistols in Europe date to the 1400s and firearms have been in Japan since at least the 1500s. Why didn't ninjas develop ways to deal with them?


I'm talking about modern pistols. I remember specifically being shown a multi attacker scenario, shooting at one attacker while restraining another in such a way that the slide knocked him out as you fired.


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## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2008)

Kreth said:


> I'm talking about modern pistols. I remember specifically being shown a multi attacker scenario, shooting at one attacker while restraining another in such a way that the slide knocked him out as you fired.


Novel...

I'd have to see it, but I suspect that you'd find that doesn't work so good in reality.  A semi-auto pistol takes advantage of the energy that's moving the slide to chamber the next round (over simplistic as that explanation is).  If you stop that short, or interfere with it, say by hitting someone's head with the slide... you may well find that the next round won't be chambered properly.  "Limp wristing" where too much of the recoil energy is dissipated through the weak grip, and letting the slide hit the barricade are common causes of malfunctions, in my experience.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (Jul 25, 2008)

Mr. ToShin Do4ever well heres the thing here....and that is there is no "best" martial art. There just is whatever best suites an individual's needs. Personally though I trained in TSD for about a year and found that is wasn't what I was looking for. But when I began training in Bujinkan...FOR ME there is no other martial arts that meets all my martial needs like Bujinkan does. And I would say that is true for you when it comes to ToShin Do. But to come here and say that ToShin Do has everything the Bujinkan has to offer and more is just disrespectful for if there was no Bujinkan then there never could have been ToShin Do. Thats like a kid telling his parents that they don't know anything yet they've experience life alot longer..........


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## kaizasosei (Jul 25, 2008)

i consider Hatsumisensei and Takamatsusensei as trustable.  I like Hayessensei stuff from back in the day, but now im confused and a little disappointed.  i followed in toshindo for a while silently, but then i nested with Richard VanDonk Shihan-and was close to getting a homestudy course to get some frigging ranking finally-not only that, i truly believe in the homestudy course and have faith in Master vanDonk, but for whatever reason, i did not end up purchasing the course and entering the program-

it really does suck sometimes when everywhere you go you dont achieve any sufficient rank to be able to stand up to foolish critisism or emotional terror.  aside from ma studies as a kid with judo classes,ninjustu books ,cma communities,aikido and iai books, kempo movies and magazines,taekwondo classes,karate blocks etc.etc.-  most recently i was involved with taking classes in takedabudo aikijujustu as well as meiyukai aikido ,bujinkan dojo,experienced some lessons with master Wang Dong Feng-taichi-shaolin.   self study of nitoichryu kenjutsu-most recently studied  chin na techniques in detail from material of master Yang Jwing Ming as well as taken a look at other chinna sources.

i want to meet Hatsumisensei and train hard in japan.  i am trying to find a way.  now i have found a good job so it's hard to leave right now....i am having to make a decision. or maybe at some point i can get permission to leave for a while and come back here, but i almost feel like i want to move to japan if i can this time. being in japan more than 5 times and not making the effort to go to see the dojo...shame on me.  i even practiced pancrase hybrib wrestling the last time i was in japan.  i did well i think under the circumstances of poisoning and periods of homelessness.
Hopefully next time i can plan my trip out a little better and arrive at the destination i seem to always be missing. 

j


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## allenjp (Jul 25, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> i consider Hatsumisensei and Takamatsusensei as trustable. I like Hayessensei stuff from back in the day, but now im confused and a little disappointed. i followed in toshindo for a while silently, but then i nested with Richard VanDonk Shihan-and was close to getting a homestudy course to get some frigging ranking finally-not only that, i truly believe in the homestudy course and have faith in Master vanDonk, but for whatever reason, i did not end up purchasing the course and entering the program-
> 
> it really does suck sometimes when everywhere you go you dont achieve any sufficient rank to be able to stand up to foolish critisism or emotional terror. aside from ma studies as a kid with judo classes,ninjustu books ,cma communities,aikido and iai books, kempo movies and magazines,taekwondo classes,karate blocks etc.etc.- most recently i was involved with taking classes in takedabudo aikijujustu as well as meiyukai aikido ,bujinkan dojo,experienced some lessons with master Wang Dong Feng-taichi-shaolin. self study of nitoichryu kenjutsu-most recently studied chin na techniques in detail from material of master Yang Jwing Ming as well as taken a look at other chinna sources.
> 
> ...


 
WOW! Interesting to see where THIS thread went...


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## newtothe dark (Jul 26, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> i consider Hatsumisensei and Takamatsusensei as trustable. I like Hayessensei stuff from back in the day, but now im confused and a little disappointed. i followed in toshindo for a while silently, but then i nested with Richard VanDonk Shihan-and was close to getting a homestudy course to get some frigging ranking finally-not only that, i truly believe in the homestudy course and have faith in Master vanDonk, but for whatever reason, i did not end up purchasing the course and entering the program-
> 
> it really does suck sometimes when everywhere you go you dont achieve any sufficient rank to be able to stand up to foolish critisism or emotional terror. aside from ma studies as a kid with judo classes,ninjustu books ,cma communities,aikido and iai books, kempo movies and magazines,taekwondo classes,karate blocks etc.etc.- most recently i was involved with taking classes in takedabudo aikijujustu as well as meiyukai aikido ,bujinkan dojo,experienced some lessons with master Wang Dong Feng-taichi-shaolin. self study of nitoichryu kenjutsu-most recently studied chin na techniques in detail from material of master Yang Jwing Ming as well as taken a look at other chinna sources.
> 
> ...


 

Wow now thats one heck of a post !!!!


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## Dale Seago (Jul 26, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> There are even people that try to say that Anshu is not a student of Hatsumi sensei anymore.



Including Hatsumi sensei.

I've spoken directly with the person who took down the plaque at Soke's direction, as well as with others who were there at the time. I can assure you and everyone else that there is absolutely no doubt among those in Japan (I was training there just last weekend, BTW) regarding his status.

I and some others made a screen capture of an announcement on the Hombu Administrator's bulletin board back in '06 which, I think, says everything necessary.

Hmm. . .Looks like I can't attach the image from my computer, so give me a minute to find somewhere else where it's been posted. . .

Okay, here we go: 











BTW, the whole SKH-status thing was already done to death, right here on MartialTalk:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33732

The horse still isn't moving. I think it's time to stop flogging it.


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## bydand (Jul 27, 2008)

I have that screen shot as well, and couldn't find it if my life depended on it.  Thanks for posting it again.


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