# Sparring vs. Self Defense



## KPM (Sep 6, 2018)

I was thinking about his recently and came across this video that is a pretty good illustration.  This is not Wing Chun, but illustrates what I was thinking.  I thought this might make a good topic for discussion.

Recently I had pretty much concluded that "traditional" arts just don't work well for real fighting.  When you look at just about any "traditional" art when they try to spar or free-fight they often end up resorting to some variation of kickboxing and often don't look too much like their traditional training.  You see this in Wing Chun, but also in a lot of other "traditional" arts. 

But.....maybe I am defining "real fighting" inaccurately?  Maybe equating it to a face-off exchange between two competitors is not the only way to define it?

Many "traditional" arts have a "self defense" orientation and are often geared towards working in that environment.  And no doubt, defending your life is a "real" fight!  But this won't always be a "give and take" exchange like a sparring match.  It seems to me that very often the orientation of a "self defense" art is to respond to a committed attack, and to keep responding until the attack is neutralized.  This is very different from standing in a "face off" situation and "feeling out" an opponent in a sparring match.  Fighting in a sparring or competition context very often involves UNCOMMITTED attacks!  Fast jabs from just out of range....probing low-line kicks.....baiting and feinting to drawn an opponent out.  And responding to such probing attacks with your own uncommitted responses to avoid a counter....hence, the back and forth "give and take" kind of exchange develops.  This is what we see almost any time people are sparring.  But this isn't necessarily how things develop on the street, and isn't necessarily how things happened on the battlefields of days gone by.

Wing Chun has been described at times as an "ambush" art.  This can imply responding to an ambush.....a surprise attack at close range that you defend against and counter quickly to neutralize the threat.  Since it is close range and you want to keep it there until the attack is neutralized, Chi Sau skills come in very handy!  There is no "squaring off" with the opponent to feel each other out with uncommitted probing attacks and half responses!   And this can also imply launching the ambush!  If you are a Wing Chun guy determined to take someone out you are going to do it at close range and with a barrage of fast strikes!  It is NOT to your advantage to give the opponent and opportunity to back up and get out of close range where your Wing Chun is designed to work!  

Here is the video I mentioned.  This is Maul Mornie doing SSBD.   I have had the honor of training with  Maul and he is very impressive!   But his videos have been criticized because he uses compliant partners and never shows any free-sparring.  But again, his  art was not designed for free-sparring and for the kind of fight you see in contests and sparring matches.   His art was designed for fast and brutal self-defense.  So it is really predicated upon someone making a committed attack that he can interrupt and disrupt and take control and finish the opponent.  No "give and take" is intended!   You just don't do this in a typical sparring match!  At least not without regularly damaging your sparring partners!   Check out this video where he shows how he would defend against a jab-cross.  Now granted, Eric is not a boxer and not throwing that jab and cross very convincingly!  But the point here is that Maul is going to stay just out of range until his attacker launches a committed blow and is not going to get into a free exchange at close range!  I'm thinking Wing Chun was probably designed to be used in a similar way, and this is why people have a lot of trouble using the "traditional" version in a sparring scenario.  It wasn't designed for a sparring scenario any more than SSBD was!


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## Flying Crane (Sep 6, 2018)

I haven’t had a chance to watch the video, but I agree with your message.  

Sparring is a game, done with controlled power, even when it is rough.  Fighting is not.  Fighting is about beating the other guy as quickly as possible.  There is no place for the “game” of sparring, in fighting.  Sparring in a fight just delays what you are trying to accomplish and gives the enemy more opportunity to beat you.  If you have the room and the time to spar in a fight, then you have opportunity to escape without engaging the fight at all.  I always recommend taking that opportunity.

Sparring can be a useful tool, but in my opinion a lot of people give it more value than it merits, put it on a pedestal that it does not deserve. Sparring is not the ultimate training method, nor the ultimate test of ones ability.


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## Steve (Sep 6, 2018)

If you can't spar, you can't fight.   Not to say that everyone who spars can fight.


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## Danny T (Sep 6, 2018)

Most sparring and competition fighting is symmetrical; two evenly matched opponents, whether empty hand or each using the same evenly matched weapon. This is a great way to introduce students to many of the skills they need for combat. Many even stay in this symmetrical mode their whole martial arts careers with the only place they ever fight in are tournaments or dueling matches (Kickboxing, Boxing, MMA).

Things are different in a real self defense fight for you life though. Success is defined not by scoring more points, or even knocking your opponent out, but by you coming out of the altercation in as close to the same condition as you went into it as possible. In short, you are not looking to “Win” but to “Survive.”

Unless you are a law enforcement officer intending to arrest a criminal; on the street your mind should be focused on “Avoid” or “Escape” rather than on “Win.” One concept you must understand is that real street attacks are rarely as symmetrical as a regular tournament, ring, or cage match.

Seldom on the street are you attacked by a single opponent who is your equal in size, strength or endurance and armed with exactly the same weapon as you are carrying (if you are carrying any weapon at all). Usually street attacks are more asymmetrical. The opponent (or opponents) is larger or stronger, has superior numbers or is better armed than the person he is attacking and it is usually an ambush of some type.
If they didn’t think the odds were in their favor, they wouldn’t attack you in the first place. Therefore, to prepare for the real world, we need to make our sparring reflect this asymmetrical aspect. The following are drills we use from Pekiti-Tirsia in our self defense training in all of our classes. You'll quickly see that these sparring drills are not the same as stand your ground dueling that most matches are but rather about surviving or quickly getting past the attacker and getting away.

Note 1. These drills are for relatively experienced students who are proficient in their basic, foundational techniques. Therefore, this training should be focused on the application of principles, instead of the learning of new techniques.

Note 2. The concept for many of these drills are scenario based and asymmetrical.

Note 3. Start each drill with the “Good Guy” using the safety/trainer version of the weapon/tool he actually would carry on his person in that situation or empty handed. Have the “Bad Guys” armed with the safety/trainer versions of whichever weapons they might have in that situation. Later you can mix things up to account for the good guy disarming a bad guy’s weapon and using it, or the bad guys having better weapons than normal. The good guy should also carry his trainer where he normally carries his real weapon and practice the draw during the stress of the drill.

Note 4: Keep each “round” of sparring to 5 to 10 seconds, since this is the time frame that most real fights are won or lost. Students should fight no more than three rounds in a row as the “good guy” as a safety factor, (when you are tired you can make mistakes that get you hurt). When not sparring, they can learn a lot by watching and seeing the big picture.
Remember, the student’s primary goal in these drills is not to win but to learn.

ASYMMETRICAL SPARRING DRILLS:

STREET WALK: Scenario: You are walking down the street and see various objects and people who may or may not be dangerous. Observe and plan ahead.

STREET WALK 1. (Consider this one a warm up drill). A line on the floor is a “bottle neck ” or “choke point.” Have a “bad guy” walk through the bottle neck, while the “good guy” comes from the opposite direction. The good guy’s job is to time his walk through the choke point so that he is not walking in the danger zone at the same time a “bad guy” is passing through. The bad guy should maintain his pace as he approaches the choke point, while the good guy learns to estimate when the bad guy will arrive there. The good guy can speed up or slow down his approach to get his timing right.

If the good guy gets his timing wrong and meets the bad guy at the choke point, the bad guy will reach out to touch his shoulder, but do no more than that. The good guy should sidestep or parry this, but do no more than that. There is no fighting in this drill, just avoidance of proximity in a specific location, at a specific time.

If the bad guy stops in the choke point, waiting for the good guy, then he is setting up an ambush and the good guy should cross the “street” while keeping the bad guy in view. If the good guy normally carries a weapon, then he should practice walking with his weapon side away from other nearby pedestrians, while not blocking his view of bad guy number one.

STREET WALK 2. Several students walk down the “street” approaching the good guy, but only one is the bad guy. Bad guy chooses when and if to attack. The signal for an imminent attack is the bad guy moving into your lane of traffic. Good guy’s job is to either maintain a safe distance, escape the immediate area or to take cover. He can’t attack someone unless they attack him first and his counters must follow a justified use of force continuum.

*BODYGUARD*. Scenario: A well trained/armed person is walking with a non trained/armed or less trained/armed person who they are responsible for.

BODYGUARD 1. Non-combatant: Variables here could be a child or elderly person, or a completely untrained and unarmed, but otherwise healthy adult.
You and a “non-combatant” are attacked and you must get the non-combatant to safety, while still defending yourself. What are the differences in strategy when protecting someone who can move quickly and effectively follow directions under stress vs. protecting someone who cannot?

BODYGUARD 2. Full combatant partnered with semi-combatant. My Silat instructor called this “husband and wife” training. These days I think of this as “big gun-little gun” or “gun guy-knife guy” training. During an altercation, knife guy moves to gun guy’s back and warns of danger from behind and can use the knife to maintain a clear space behind them.
On the go signal, knife person grabs partner’s belt or shirt and guides gun guy towards cover while giving verbal or physical direction.

BODYGUARD 3. AKA the “Dad, Mom & Kids” drill. When violence is imminent, Dad’s job is to draw the attention of the bad guys and hold them off and/or counter attack, while Mom grabs kid(s) and moves towards nearest escape route. Once mom and kids are safe, she signals Dad who either joins them or moves to his nearest cover. I’ve used this often with my family as a mental exercise. “OK guys, where are the exits and cover in this restaurant/park/shopping center? Where should we meet up afterwards if we can’t get back to our car?”

*HOME INVASION*. Scenario: Our worst nightmare; bad guys in our home. (This one can get emotionally intense, so keep to short 5 second rounds for safety.) In each of these drills, use two heavy bags to act as a doorway. This allows using the “doorjamb” (surface of the heavy bag) as a weapon or as cover, as well as practicing with your weapons in a confined space.

HOME INVASION 1.
You are standing in front of your bedroom door, keeping the bad guys from getting to your family. You can’t let the bad guys get past you.

HOME INVASION 2.
There is a bad guy in front of your bedroom door and another bad guy inside attacking your family. You have to get past the first bad guy to save your family.

HOME INVASION 3. Version A adds a large foam shield tied to one heavy bag to act as a door. Good guy is answering his front door. Two or more bad guys are outside of the home. When door opens bad guys try to push their way in. Good guy tries to close door and then defends with hands, and safe trainer versions of a knife, stick, machete, handgun or long gun. Space and time limitations come into play (how fast can they enter vs. how fast can bring weapons into action and end the threat with different weapons). This can also be good training in the use of the door itself as a shield or weapon.

Version B. This is best done in a real doorway, (choose one without glass in it or near-by). Safety tip. Work this one slowly and plan your actions ahead of time and use safety trainers or “stunt doubles” where applicable. An example of a stunt double would be to substitute a rolled up piece of carpet for a bad guy’s head; practicing closing the door on it and then pushing it out the door, then closing and locking the door. (yes, it’s best to practice all the actions if you want them to come out reliably under stress). A good homework assignment is for students to look at the doorways to their homes for blindspots where bad guys can hide. Note: security cameras are inexpensive and easy to install these days. Even a convex mirror put in the right place can aid in removing blind spots around your home.

*TEAM GET HOME*. An alternative to the bodyguard is a group of equals (for example, martial arts students) walking down the street together. They are attacked by a group of bad guys. How do the students work as a team, while in the space they have and with the tools available to them?

The set up for this drill is to first define your fighting space. We have done this using a wall of the school to represent a “hard barrier” (such as a building on one side of a sidewalk), while a line of heavy bags can represent a “soft barrier” that you can climb over or go between (such as a row of parked cars), on the other side of the sidewalk.

Much of this drill is learning the range of your own weapons and how not to hit your partners as you fight and not to impede their own movements.

With an odd number of good guys, we have found it effective to stagger them in a reverse wedge or V formation, so that the middle good guy is back a step or so from his partners. The bad guys get funneled into this gap, where the front good guys (who have one of their sides protected by a barrier) can attack them from the sides. With an even number of good guys, try to form a reverse trapezoid, with the back guys forming a line at the bottom.

An alternate is to form the V formation and use the extra good guy(s) to guard the flank on the side with the soft barrier. Having this man take an extra step or two back from parallel with the center good guy will widen his field of view and help him watch for flanking maneuvers from the bad guys. It will also help keep him away from an accidental hit from the center good guy’s weapons.

Learning how to signal other team members, how to retreat as a group and who should signal this, how to bunker down and defend a fixed, three-sided area (defined as a place where your sides and back are protected by hard barriers), are all important parts of this drill.

I’ve taught this drill as part of an anti-riot escape plan; using your Get-Home-Bag on your left arm as a shield; while adding a plastic cutting board for knife resistance or a kevlar insert for bullet resistance inside the bag. Add a weapon drawn from the bag in your right hand and this can become part of a viable escape package.

Because of the high number of moving parts to this drill (and because the students get so excited when training this way – it is a lot of fun), it is advisable to put all your safety armor on when practicing this and start at only half speed and power.

*BOOT CAMP DRILL*: Not sparring, per se, but a way to train a technique so that it will come out under stress. Military trainers around the world purposely use this type of drill at the end of a long and exhausting day, as it allows the information to bypass the conscience brain and ingrain itself directly into the sub-conscience.

Pick one short combination attack that the students know well and practice this one combination against the air, focus mitts, thai pads, heavy bag or applicable weapon targets for the last 2 to 10 minutes of class (depending on the age and condition of the students and the difficulty of the technique).

Have them say or even shout the names of the movements of the combo in some shorthand that won’t slow down the delivery, such as “Jab-Cross-Uppercut-Hook” becomes “J-C-U-H” or “1-2-3-4.”

While they are doing this drill, they should visualize themselves successfully delivering the combo they are practicing, as well as the effect these techniques will have on their opponent.

*GRAB BAG SPARRING.* This is a fun drill for advanced guys, as it’s a challenging way to train with different weapon mixes. Remember, in this type of advanced sparring, the student’s goal is not to win against the person in front of them at that moment, but to learn how to better their own fighting ability against a future opponent. We set this drill up with a line on the floor that one fighter has to guard and the other has to pass through as their respective goals.
This drill works well in 10 second rounds, with appropriate time between rounds for the fighters to rest and plan their moves for the next round.

Stage 1. Take a variety of practice weapons and assign numbers to them. Have practice versions of knives, wooden sticks, metal pipes, swords, a length of rope with a rubber ball at the end subbing as a belt with a heavy buckle, a soft rope subbing as a steel chain, a wooden dowel for a tactical flashlight, etc. Note: you can use different color paints or tape to signify different weapons, such as coloring a rattan stick black to signify an iron pipe or white to signify a machete.

Let’s say you come up with 10 different substitute training weapons. Line these up outside the sparring area. Now take 11 slips of paper and write a number (1 to 11) on each slip. Put the slips in a hat and let the students pick a number. Whatever they come up with, that is what they will spar with. As you probably have already guessed, if they draw an 11, they spar empty handed.

Stage 2 is to let the students pick two slips of paper each and fight with whatever comes out of the hat with double weapons or, (if one of their numbers is 11) Solo style.

Note: If you see too great a disparity of force for safe training (i.e. a larger, more experienced student with a “machete” vs. smaller, less experienced student with a “knife”) try to even things up by giving the smaller student a partner or a better weapon, or give the better fighter a lesser weapon like a pool noodle instead of a stick.

*BASIC PRACTICE DRILLS:* You can work principals you will need for combat into your everyday practice.

THREE PARTNERS A: When partnering up to practice a technique, partner up by threes in a triangle instead of by twos in a line. Student 1 is the good guy and does the technique one time on student 2 then one time on student 3. Next round, student 2 becomes the “good guy” and so on.

Practicing this way helps prevent the tunnel vision that can lead you to focus so much on opponent 1, that opponent 2 can get behind you and stab you in the back.

THREE PARTNERS B. This is like TPA except, on the instructor’s signal, the current “good guy” from each group will run and “escape” to another group.


Here’s a homework assignment we often give students. On your way home, look for all the “ambush points” along your main route. Once you identify them, look for “escape routes” and where any weapons of opportunity or points of cover might be. Next, learn alternate routes home and where Weapons Of Opportunity and cover points are on those routes.

Train hard, but train smart.


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## drop bear (Sep 6, 2018)

Sorry. So why can't I stay out of peoples range and just throw jabs?

Your street fights have too many rules.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 7, 2018)

KPM said:


> I was thinking about his recently and came across this video that is a pretty good illustration.  This is not Wing Chun, but illustrates what I was thinking.  I thought this might make a good topic for discussion.
> 
> Recently I had pretty much concluded that "traditional" arts just don't work well for real fighting.  When you look at just about any "traditional" art when they try to spar or free-fight they often end up resorting to some variation of kickboxing and often don't look too much like their traditional training.  You see this in Wing Chun, but also in a lot of other "traditional" arts.
> 
> ...



I dont know anything about Wing Chun but your thinking about self defense and TMA is going in the correct direction.  
It's a red pill moment when you start to understand self defense.  TMA dogma is the blue pill but MMA has turned into its own blue pill as well.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2018)

KPM said:


> I was thinking about his recently and came across this video that is a pretty good illustration.  This is not Wing Chun, but illustrates what I was thinking.  I thought this might make a good topic for discussion.
> 
> Recently I had pretty much concluded that "traditional" arts just don't work well for real fighting.  When you look at just about any "traditional" art when they try to spar or free-fight they often end up resorting to some variation of kickboxing and often don't look too much like their traditional training.  You see this in Wing Chun, but also in a lot of other "traditional" arts.
> 
> ...


Sparring is the opportunity that you use to learn how to use the techniques that you train.  Most people don't take that opportunity to try and use the techniques they train and as a result end up doing basic punching and kicking.  

If you want to  play the piano you practice piano
If you want to be a good cook then you practice cooking
If you want to be a good student then you practice by studying
If you want to be a good fighter then you practice fighting.

If the sparring isn't practice for fighting then there's no way a person can be good at fighting.



KPM said:


> I'm thinking Wing Chun was probably designed to be used in a similar way, and this is why people have a lot of trouble using the "traditional" version in a sparring scenario. It wasn't designed for a sparring scenario any more than SSBD was!


This only holds true for some of the marital arts techniques.  Guns weren't made for sparring but people find ways to practice the techniques of using a gun. While there are somethings you aren't going to be able to train against a partner in sparring,  there is still tons that you can train.  

From my own experience of using TMA in sparring, there will be a lot of failure before the success.  Success only comes after one figures the timing and the valid opportunities to use a technique.  I ate a lot of punches before I gained the ability to use my TMA techniques.


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## KPM (Sep 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Sorry. So why can't I stay out of peoples range and just throw jabs?
> 
> Your street fights have too many rules.



Well, most "real" attacks wouldn't happen that way.  And in a self defense scenario as long as you are staying out of range and not throwing a committed attack, no response is even necessary.  Keep backing up and then run when you can!   Or keep  backing up until the person actually launches an committed attack.   I think this is why so many of these systems like SSBD can look a little "hokey" to people on video.  Its because the guy feeding the strike is doing a fully committed attack, so it looks and is very "staged."  But this is how you teach people the fundamentals of the system.  In a seminar the goal is not to turn everyone into a "fighter" in just one weekend.


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## KPM (Sep 7, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Sparring is the opportunity that you use to learn how to use the techniques that you train.  Most people don't take that opportunity to try and use the techniques they train and as a result end up doing basic punching and kicking.
> 
> If you want to  play the piano you practice piano
> If you want to be a good cook then you practice cooking
> ...



I agree to an extent.  But I think the problem may be that we often have too narrow a definition of "sparring" just as we may have too narrow a definition of "real fighting."  Most people see sparring simply as throwing two guys in the ring together and just letting them have a go at each other.  But you can have drills that are progressively more and more "alive" that simulate fighting in a specific scenario or environment, as Danny described very nicely above.  Take Krav Maga as another example of what Danny was describing.....when they train by having an attacker put on lots of protective gear and then set up a scenario where a student responds freely to a specific attack or attack scenario....is that not also a form of "sparring"?  I've seen Wing Chun guys do some training in this way as well, which I think now is a great idea!  

I guess the bottom line in my thought process is this.......That PTK guy or Krav Maga guy that did well in this "scenario" training would very likely get his butt kicked if he stepped into the ring with a MMA guy with an equal amount of time in training.   But a lot of people (myself included) have deemed that MMA "free-fight" scenario to be the litmus test for fighting ability.  But that may be unfair.

So the counterpoint may be this......would that MMA guy do just as well in a self-defense scenario as our PTK or KM student?   And if he did, wouldn't MMA then represent a better way of training or a superior martial art because the product of the training can function well in both a sparring AND a self defense environment?????


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## jobo (Sep 7, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Most sparring and competition fighting is symmetrical; two evenly matched opponents, whether empty hand or each using the same evenly matched weapon. This is a great way to introduce students to many of the skills they need for combat. Many even stay in this symmetrical mode their whole martial arts careers with the only place they ever fight in are tournaments or dueling matches (Kickboxing, Boxing, MMA).
> 
> Things are different in a real self defense fight for you life though. Success is defined not by scoring more points, or even knocking your opponent out, but by you coming out of the altercation in as close to the same condition as you went into it as possible. In short, you are not looking to “Win” but to “Survive.”
> 
> ...


People like to out there own defintions on self defence, in this case your calling it REAL self defence, yes there are times and places and situations where escaping unhurt is the main purpose, where your out numbered or out gunned perhaps, but in most real self defence situations, my prime ourpose has been to cause considerably more damage to my attacker than they caused to me, i have no intention of escaping until they are badly hurt, even if that involves me getting some what less hurt.

I attacked a group of five Men, One Of which had my sister by the throat, my only concern was making them regret that, no matter what level of damage they did to me, as long as one or two of them was hurt, badly, id happily take a beating off the other 3

Being anything but fully committed to the task in hand, tends to get you hurt and them not,


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 7, 2018)

KPM said:


> Well, most "real" attacks wouldn't happen that way


there is a break down in the conversation here between you and DB.  some attacks do happen that way and some dont.  DB's experience in door work gives him a view of what "real life" looks like.  others of us have different experiences that give us a different view of "real life".  
this conversation goes around in circles forever because we fail to define what "real life" actually is.  the term is to broad and encapsulates to much.  until we all start using the same terminology there can be no progress on this topic.


Real life looks like:  A guy at a bar who drank too much who is trying to start a fight with everyone and your his next target.
Real life looks like:  An uncle or neighbor who grooms a young girl into doing "things" she is not old enough to understand.
Real life looks like:  A mentally disturbed person who decides the world is evil and needs to be destroyed and opens fire in a public place.
Real life looks like:  An individual who commits attempted robbery and decides you are his victim and suddenly pulls a knife and starts stabbing you over and over.
all of these things are real life self defense but need to be approached differently and create different views in peoples minds. however people usually only focus on one type.


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## Danny T (Sep 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> People like to out there own defintions on self defence, in this case your calling it REAL self defence, yes there are times and places and situations where escaping unhurt is the main purpose, where your out numbered or out gunned perhaps, but in most real self defence situations, my prime ourpose has been to cause considerably more damage to my attacker than they caused to me, i have no intention of escaping until they are badly hurt, even if that involves me getting some what less hurt.
> 
> I attacked a group of five Men, One Of which had my sister by the throat, my only concern was making them regret that, no matter what level of damage they did to me, as long as one or two of them was hurt, badly, id happily take a beating off the other 3
> 
> Being anything but fully committed to the task in hand, tends to get you hurt and them not,


Certainly however, that is but 1 situation. So all your though process' and training is to be based on that 1?


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## jobo (Sep 7, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Certainly however, that is but 1 situation. So all your though process' and training is to be based on that 1?


My thiught processes are ramdom, dependent on what sort if day im having, how big the guy is how many there are, if ive got a) a big mate with me, b) a girl friend in high heels who cant run.

My training is about causing max damage, if i cant or dont want to escape and sprinting in case i can/ do wish to eascape, but im not leaving my girl friend, friend(s) , my dog who refuses to run on command , the kids or my motorbike behind, so thats about 99% of the tims i would have to stand and fight, its seems poibtless spending to much time on a very rare scenario,


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## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2018)

KPM said:


> Well, most "real" attacks wouldn't happen that way.  And in a self defense scenario as long as you are staying out of range and not throwing a committed attack, no response is even necessary.  Keep backing up and then run when you can!   Or keep  backing up until the person actually launches an committed attack.   I think this is why so many of these systems like SSBD can look a little "hokey" to people on video.  Its because the guy feeding the strike is doing a fully committed attack, so it looks and is very "staged."  But this is how you teach people the fundamentals of the system.  In a seminar the goal is not to turn everyone into a "fighter" in just one weekend.


Another way to deal with it, if the bad guy is not committing to the attack is for you to do so.  If he wants to delay, then you take charge and end it.  Overwhelm him.  Most people are not very good at dealing with fast, multiple attacks if there is real power behind them.


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## jobo (Sep 7, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Another way to deal with it, if the bad guy is not committing to the attack is for you to do so.  If he wants to delay, then you take charge and end it.  Overwhelm him.  Most people are not very good at dealing with fast, multiple attacks if there is real power behind them.


well yes, that's the point I'm making above, once a fight is inevitable, then commit every effort in to hurting him, attackers don't generally expect to be hit with extreme violence and aggression, or they wouldn't be attacking you in the first place, stop fighting for your life and make him fight for his


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## KPM (Sep 7, 2018)

Real life looks like:  A guy at a bar who drank too much who is trying to start a fight with everyone and your his next target........*which is a committed attack*
Real life looks like:  An uncle or neighbor who grooms a young girl into doing "things" she is not old enough to understand......*which is really outside of our current discussion*
Real life looks like:  A mentally disturbed person who decides the world is evil and needs to be destroyed and opens fire in a public place.....*which is a committed attack*
Real life looks like:  An individual who commits attempted robbery and decides you are his victim and suddenly pulls a knife and starts stabbing you over and over......*which is a committed attack. *
Let me repeat my response to DB:   *And in a self defense scenario as long as you are staying out of range and not throwing a committed attack, no response is even necessary. Keep backing up and then run when you can! Or keep backing up until the person actually launches an committed attack. 
*
My point being that most assaults are not a "squaring off" resulting in a "give and take" exchange as happens most typically in sparring/free-fighting.  Now DB may very well have encountered these types of situations working the door as a bouncer where some belligerent drunk actually "squared off" with him.  But that is not the scenario that most people doing martial arts are preparing for or would expect to encounter, given that most people are not envisioning being a bouncer in a club.


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## Danny T (Sep 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> My thiught processes are ramdom, dependent on what sort if day im having, how big the guy is how many there are, if ive got a) a big mate with me, b) a girl friend in high heels who cant run.
> 
> My training is about causing max damage, if i cant or dont want to escape and sprinting in case i can/ do wish to eascape, but im not leaving my girl friend, friend(s) , my dog who refuses to run on command , the kids or my motorbike behind, so thats about 99% of the tims i would have to stand and fight, its seems poibtless spending to much time on a very rare scenario,


So you do agree that self defense is more than just fighting. Thank you.
And as such there are others who train for other actions than standing and fighting like in a duel.



KPM said:


> My point being that most assaults are not a "squaring off" resulting in a "give and take" exchange as happens most typically in sparring/free-fighting.  Now DB may very well have encountered these types of situations working the door as a bouncer where some belligerent drunk actually "squared off" with him.  But that is not the scenario that most people doing martial arts are preparing for or would expect to encounter, given that most people are not envisioning being a bouncer in a club.


Agreed.


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## MetalBoar (Sep 7, 2018)

This is a complex topic in my opinion. As has been touched upon above, I think it's hard to have this sort of discussion when working with vague terms like "real fight", sparring, and martial arts training.

Obviously, the term sparring covers a lot of territory depending on who you ask, from stop and reset point sparring with a very restrictive rule set and a lot of padding to MMA to a couple of guys in the garage who've watched Fight Club a couple too many times without really getting it.

"Real Fight" probably covers even more ground. A lot of people seem to think of a "real fight" as being like an adult version of a school yard tussle. For others, it's going to be concerns about violent criminal assault (which is a huge spectrum all by itself). Then for others still it's occupational, like bouncer, cop, emergency room employee, etc. If we don't understand each others' context, and my definition of a "real fight" is dealing with some guy who's trying to cave my skull in for my wallet I'm going to sound kind of crazy to the bouncer who's idea of a "real fight" involves restraining and/or removing a drunk, belligerent customer before they cause harm.

As I've probably already said too many times on this board, you get what you train for (at best). How well does the sparring and martial art you do match up with the "real fight" you're training for? If you're just doing limited point sparring I would argue that unless you're doing a lot of really good drills too it's probably detrimental to your ability to defend yourself. Boxing is great if you want to box and has some real utility for a broad range of self defense situations, but it probably isn't the best preparation for a bouncer and has less utility still for a cop (especially if they're wearing a body cam...). If you're doing nothing but RBSD training with a whole lot of drills and no "real sparring" it does a really poor job of preparing you for the Octagon.

This may seem like it goes without saying, but if your training is strictly focused on one kind of "real fight" and you don't train for other kinds you aren't going to be as good at those other kinds as you could be. If you don't acknowledge that those other kinds of "real fights" exist for some people then it might be hard to communicate with them or see why they train the way they do or explain to them why your way is better.

I think there is a lot of value in pressure testing your techniques. I think sparring and competition, especially fairly hard contact, limited rules, sparring/competition, is a really valuable tool for developing self defense skills and testing to see whether your techniques actually work. I think this can be hard to see for people that believe that every "real fight" involves broken glass, hidden weapons and multiple attackers. I think it is harder to pressure test some techniques than others in competition and that sometimes drills and scenario training are better for developing and testing skills than sparring/competition and that it can be hard for people to see this who believe the only "real fight" is just like fights in the MMA.

I won't argue, there are a lot of TMA schools that don't prepare people for my definition (or maybe anyone's) of a real fight. I also think that a lot of people mistakenly believe that if they get really good at MMA for competition that they don't have any holes in their training when it comes to every possible definition of a "real fight". I think it's likely that a good TMA school, with proper training methods, might meet some peoples' needs better for their "real fights" than many MMA gyms that focus strictly on competition.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2018)

Danny T said:


> So you do agree that self defense is more than just fighting.


I will say the other way around, "fighting is more than just self-defense".

1. Self-defense - you only need to protect yourself not to get hurt.
2. Fighting - besides protecting yourself, you want to hurt your opponent too.

So self-defense is a subset of fighting.

- When someone tries to rape your wife, de-escalate cannot solve your problem.
- When some countries invade your country, run away also cannot solve your problem.

To train fighting is much more difficult than just to train self-defense. Not only you need to learn how to protect yourself, you also need to learn how to hurt your opponent.


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## Martial D (Sep 7, 2018)

KPM said:


> Real life looks like:  A guy at a bar who drank too much who is trying to start a fight with everyone and your his next target........*which is a committed attack*
> Real life looks like:  An uncle or neighbor who grooms a young girl into doing "things" she is not old enough to understand......*which is really outside of our current discussion*
> Real life looks like:  A mentally disturbed person who decides the world is evil and needs to be destroyed and opens fire in a public place.....*which is a committed attack*
> Real life looks like:  An individual who commits attempted robbery and decides you are his victim and suddenly pulls a knife and starts stabbing you over and over......*which is a committed attack. *
> ...


Dude, you know as well as I do that a 'comitted attack' vs traditional WC usually ends on the WC guys completely stationary and unprotected face.

Don't drink the Kool aid.


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## Danny T (Sep 7, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I will say the other way around, "fighting is more than just self-defense".
> 
> 1. Self-defense - you only need to protect yourself not to get hurt.
> 2. Fighting - besides protecting yourself, you want to hurt your opponent too.
> ...


Fighting is a form of self defense. Not all fighting is self defense and not all self defense is fighting. If you realize you and your family are in immediate physical danger and you get them out of that situation have you not defended them and protected them from that immediate danger? That is also a form of self defense and many times may be done without fighting. 

As to your example of rape and invasion...yes in such a situation one may well have to fight. In such situations I'd be using a weapon which would be a different form of fighting.


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## drop bear (Sep 7, 2018)

KPM said:


> Well, most "real" attacks wouldn't happen that way.  And in a self defense scenario as long as you are staying out of range and not throwing a committed attack, no response is even necessary.  Keep backing up and then run when you can!   Or keep  backing up until the person actually launches an committed attack.   I think this is why so many of these systems like SSBD can look a little "hokey" to people on video.  Its because the guy feeding the strike is doing a fully committed attack, so it looks and is very "staged."  But this is how you teach people the fundamentals of the system.  In a seminar the goal is not to turn everyone into a "fighter" in just one weekend.



Wait a second here. So I see a threat. How about this?

I take a step back and say love off.

If he comes forward I jab him in the nose and then take another step back. If he comes forwards again, I jab him again. At some point he will give up coming forwards and I can wander off, or whatever I was doing.

I break the rules of a "real attack" so that the encounter goes the way I want it to go.

Chances are I wont even get hit in this scenario. Just free shots.


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## drop bear (Sep 7, 2018)

Danny T said:


> So you do agree that self defense is more than just fighting. Thank you.
> And as such there are others who train for other actions than standing and fighting like in a duel.



Being able to fight makes the rest of it easier. Gives you more options and is considerably less toxic.


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## drop bear (Sep 7, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> there is a break down in the conversation here between you and DB.  some attacks do happen that way and some dont.  DB's experience in door work gives him a view of what "real life" looks like.  others of us have different experiences that give us a different view of "real life".
> this conversation goes around in circles forever because we fail to define what "real life" actually is.  the term is to broad and encapsulates to much.  until we all start using the same terminology there can be no progress on this topic.
> 
> 
> ...



Just like to point out I have dealt with every one of those situations. And guys stabbed, set on fire, riots, burglarys, robberies and suicides and attempts.(sorry my psyco boy had a knife not a gun. And I had one that had covered himself in poo.)

So yes "real life" can be clamping a guy in a head lock because he wants to jump off the top story of a car park. Or setting an attack dog loose to eat him because he somehow got hold of a muffler and is swinging it around of even running down a 13 year old female shoplifter through a shopping center and arresting her without looking like a rapist.


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## Danny T (Sep 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Being able to fight makes the rest of it easier. Gives you more options and is considerably less toxic.


Confidence in one's self does that.
The sparring one does for a contest and different self defense scenarios are different. How one uses the tactics are different. That isn't to say one who is proficient in sport fighting isn't in self defense however, most self defense isn't about being able to stand toe to toe punching and kicking someone else.


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## KPM (Sep 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Wait a second here. So I see a threat. How about this?
> 
> I take a step back and say love off.
> 
> ...



Sure!  But would that step forward he takes to within your range not also essentially be a "committed attack" on his part?  That's not quite the same as him springing in for a quick jab at your nose and then springing back again.


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## drop bear (Sep 7, 2018)

KPM said:


> Sure!  But would that step forward he takes to within your range not also essentially be a "committed attack" on his part?  That's not quite the same as him springing in for a quick jab at your nose and then springing back again.



Yeah. But I am still going to use the lessons learned sparring to control that fight.

If he hasn't done any sparring and cant deal with my jab. Tough cookies.


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## drop bear (Sep 7, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Confidence in one's self does that.
> The sparring one does for a contest and different self defense scenarios are different. How one uses the tactics are different. That isn't to say one who is proficient in sport fighting isn't in self defense however, most self defense isn't about being able to stand toe to toe punching and kicking someone else.



It really is. 

If I have an argument with this guy.





It will be easier than if I have an argument with this guy.





Even the verbal bit.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2018)

Danny T said:


> rape and invasion...yes in such a situation one may well have to fight. In such situations I'd be using a weapon which would be a different form of fighting.


This is why the end goal of the CMA is to learn how to use a traditional weapon effectively. The open hand fight is not the end goal.


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## geezer (Sep 8, 2018)

Weapons are the end goal of TCMA? You sure? I havent seen much practial use of weapons in your art of  Schuai Chiao, John.


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## geezer (Sep 8, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why the end goal of the CMA is to learn how to use a traditional weapon effectively. The open hand fight is not the end goal.



Whoah! That's some crazy 80s hair! Makes me think of this...






But at least this guy has a rifle and bayonet. Take that over that Chinese pole arm any day.


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## geezer (Sep 8, 2018)

Oh! Oh! I got it! Big Hair is the end goal of all Martial Arts.

So what about the pros and cons of big hair. ...or any hair? We live in an era of the shaved head in martial arts, and we all know what a liability long hair can be in a fight. But what about the uses of hair in self defense, eh?


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## now disabled (Sep 8, 2018)

geezer said:


> Whoah! That's some crazy 80s hair! Makes me think of this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm sure the Coldsteam guard will be very pleased to hear you want his rifle mind you by the look of the flash suppressor I'd recommend you just take the Bayonet as the SA80 is only a 5.56mm lol not exactly the best so to speak


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2018)

Danny T said:


> So you do agree that self defense is more than just fighting. Thank you.
> And as such there are others who train for other actions than standing and fighting like in a duel.
> 
> 
> Agreed.


Well maybe, but not that much more, if your just going to rehash paulds argument, that self defence covers everythibg from wasp sqashing, escaping earth quakes, then fighting is only a very minor part,, and you need to stock up on antibiotics, anti venom, uzis a panic room a bomb shelter and quite pissibly an escapee helicopter,

If your sugesting that it inckudes recognising danger before it punches you on the nose, thats fair comment,.  But for all sorts of reasons you cant always do that or change location quick eniugh to excape, in which case it often comes down to physically defending your self, so that is a very important part,  you can take ut further and say that the fitness, co ordination agility you gain in having a Fighting ability could well help, in excaping a fire, a flood, the police, getting someone out of a hole or a river etal. so fight training helps all round, even if Its kuNg fu kicking a rattle snake or a rabid pit bull


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## geezer (Sep 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well maybe, but not that much more, if your just going to rehash paul's argument, that self defence covers everything from_ *wasp squashing..*._



Awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, escape ...then Physical Defense as a last resort. That's my dogma. 

Now I'm not sure about how to go about _de-escalation_ with wasps, but I definitely recommend awareness, avoidance and escape before trying to swat them. And that goes double for the wild bees we have around here. Mostly the "Aficanized" strain. You swat one of those little gang bangers and they release a scent... and _all their homeys_ will come after you.


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## geezer (Sep 8, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I'm sure the Coldsteam guard will be very pleased to hear you want his rifle mind you by the look of the flash suppressor I'd recommend you just take the Bayonet as the SA80 is only a 5.56mm lol not exactly the best so to speak



Actually, If I were to take anything, I'd choose that bear-skin hat just for the _awesomness! _


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## now disabled (Sep 8, 2018)

geezer said:


> Actually, If I were to take anything, I'd choose that bear-skin hat just for the _awesomness! _




Lol i'd recommend buying one as ummm the pea shooter they carrying when they are on guard esp at Buck house is actually loaded and the bayonet is real to .....there have been a few cases of tourists trying to umm either pinch or even touch a guardsmans bearskin when he was on guard and well how shall we put it ........tourists ended up with brown stains lol as the gaurdsmen really get a tad pissed off as one it there uninform ...two they would get charged if it got pinched or damaged....three they get it all the time ....four after you been standing on guard for 4 hours or more you do tend to get a little short in the temper stakes lol


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## geezer (Sep 8, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Lol i'd recommend buying one as ummm the pea shooter they carrying when they are on guard esp at Buck house is actually loaded and the bayonet is real to .....there have been a few cases of tourists trying to umm either pinch or even touch a guardsmans bearskin when he was on guard and well how shall we put it ........tourists ended up with brown stains lol as the gaurdsmen really get a tad pissed off as one it there uninform ...two they would get charged if it got pinched or damaged....three they get it all the time ....four after you been standing on guard for 4 hours or more you do tend to get a little short in the temper stakes lol



Oh, if you really _have _to have one, you can get cheap copies on ebay for $15:
Royal British Queens Guard Bearskin Beefeater Fancy Dress English Costume Hat | eBay

If you were going to steal one, I imagine that the penalty would be really stiff, and even after you got out of your legal difficulties, everyone would know what a capital J _Jackass_ you were. Not a good decision.... Although, now that you have brought up the idea, ...you might be able to lift one with a really good_ drone? 
_
People have done things just as dumb or even dumber already. Just watch the following at about 4:32:


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## drop bear (Sep 8, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Lol i'd recommend buying one as ummm the pea shooter they carrying when they are on guard esp at Buck house is actually loaded and the bayonet is real to .....there have been a few cases of tourists trying to umm either pinch or even touch a guardsmans bearskin when he was on guard and well how shall we put it ........tourists ended up with brown stains lol as the gaurdsmen really get a tad pissed off as one it there uninform ...two they would get charged if it got pinched or damaged....three they get it all the time ....four after you been standing on guard for 4 hours or more you do tend to get a little short in the temper stakes lol


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## drop bear (Sep 8, 2018)

geezer said:


> Awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, escape ...then Physical Defense as a last resort. That's my dogma.
> 
> Now I'm not sure about how to go about _de-escalation_ with wasps, but I definitely recommend awareness, avoidance and escape before trying to swat them. And that goes double for the wild bees we have around here. Mostly the "Aficanized" strain. You swat one of those little gang bangers and they release a scent... and _all their homeys_ will come after you.



Yes. But people escalate to physical when there is a threat. 

The better you can fight the less need for you to feel threatened.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 8, 2018)

geezer said:


> Weapons are the end goal of TCMA? You sure? I havent seen much practial use of weapons in your art of  Schuai Chiao, John.


Shuai Chiao is a sport. Long fist is not.


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## KPM (Sep 8, 2018)

Warner Chappell has blocked 2 of your videos John?


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## Anarax (Sep 8, 2018)

KPM said:


> I was thinking about his recently and came across this video that is a pretty good illustration.  This is not Wing Chun, but illustrates what I was thinking.  I thought this might make a good topic for discussion.
> 
> Recently I had pretty much concluded that "traditional" arts just don't work well for real fighting.  When you look at just about any "traditional" art when they try to spar or free-fight they often end up resorting to some variation of kickboxing and often don't look too much like their traditional training.  You see this in Wing Chun, but also in a lot of other "traditional" arts.
> 
> ...



In the context of this thread, Sparring is like any other type of training. The habits you're trying to instill with training can either be an asset or a hindrance in a real life altercation. Knowing what to do and when to do it is an important component when discussing sparring and SD. Teaching point style sparring without combinations, power or three dimensional footwork can be problematic in a real life scenario for that's what you'll naturally resort to. However, training full-contact that allows some grappling will be much more beneficial in a real life altercation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 8, 2018)

KPM said:


> Warner Chappell has blocked 2 of your videos John?


I don't understand. It's my own videos from my own computer. But 1 video should be good enough to support what I have said.


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## TMA17 (Sep 8, 2018)

> But this won't always be a "give and take" exchange like a sparring match. It seems to me that very often the orientation of a "self defense" art is to respond to a committed attack, and to keep responding until the attack is neutralized. This is very different from standing in a "face off" situation and "feeling out" an opponent in a sparring match.



This is a really good point.


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> This is a really good point.



That is one of my major issues with self defense drilling though. This one sided ego beat down.

You really won't just keep going until the other guy is down. You will walk in to a shot and your whole momentum will get upset.


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## Martial D (Sep 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> That is one of my major issues with self defense drilling though. This one sided ego beat down.
> 
> You really won't just keep going until the other guy is down. You will walk in to a shot and your whole momentum will get upset



I was thinking the same thing.

Mr Attacker is mentally prepared, and he has the jump.

So why does he get ambushed with relentless attacks without responding?

I feel like the whole middle part where the garden gnomes tie his shoelaces together is missing.


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## KPM (Sep 9, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I was thinking the same thing.
> 
> Mr Attacker is mentally prepared, and he has the jump.
> 
> ...



Or.....Mr. Attacker is expecting an easy mark and when he meets determined (and skilled) resistance his resolve dissolves.  I agree that some of the Kenpo-like things you see....as in the  video that DB shared...where the defender is doing a scripted response of about 12 things, is not at all realistic.  But what someone like Maul Mornie is often teaching in seminars is the initial response or entry, and then multiple ways to continue from the entry depending upon how the initial attacker reacts.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> That is one of my major issues with self defense drilling though. This one sided ego beat down.
> 
> You really won't just keep going until the other guy is down. You will walk in to a shot and your whole momentum will get upset.


A 20 hit combo is the least of your worries here lol.  There was a lot of things that weren't applied correctly.

From what I've seen on self-defense seminar videos, most instructors don't factor the "what if scenarios."  to answer: (maybe someone can speak differently from the experience of physically being in one.)
1. what happens if I get it wrong
2. what do I do if I get it wrong
3. what do to if the the attacker is able to defeat my attempts

I don't have to understand the language to visually see things not working out the way you initially plan and the need to be able to adjust accordingly. 





Catching punches are also very difficult if the person isn't slowing down the punch will it's coming in and retreating.  Just snatching a punch out of mid air is extremely difficult.  The demos that show the "catch a punch" often do so at the fastest point of a punch, which is nuts to me.


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## KPM (Sep 9, 2018)

*From what I've seen on self-defense seminar videos, most instructors don't factor the "what if scenarios."  to answer: (maybe someone can speak differently from the experience of physically being in one.)
1. what happens if I get it wrong
2. what do I do if I get it wrong
3. what do to if the the attacker is able to defeat my attempts*

---In a FMA/Kali context I have trained in a series of joint locks or a "lock flow."  Here you go from one joint lock to another....going through maybe 8 or more locks!  But the idea is that you try to apply one lock and it fails or the opponent resists....then the next lock in the series is the one you will most likely resort to...and if that one fails or the opponent resists...then the next lock in the series is the one you will most likely resort to....etc.  Not that you would go through the entire series in a self defense situation, but if you find yourself applying one of the locks and it doesn't work....you instinctively flow into the next lock that is most likely to be needed.  The things that Maul Mornie often teaches in seminars seem like a long series that wouldn't be likely to work.  But he explains that if the opponent is out after the entry and initial counter, then you are done!  But if that initial counter didn't end it, this is the next thing you will likely do, etc.  Or often that initial counter is just a set up to position the opponent where you want them for the finishing move, etc.  There is never the expectation that a series of 10 or more moves is every going to be used exactly that way in a real situation. 


*Catching punches are also very difficult if the person isn't slowing down the punch will it's coming in and retreating.  Just snatching a punch out of mid air is extremely difficult.  The demos that show the "catch a punch" often do so at the fastest point of a punch, which is nuts to me.*

---Depends on how you train.  Again, taking Maul Mornie's SSBD as an example, they drill a feed of strikes at various angles that are somewhat exaggerated so that a student gets used to quickly seeing the angle coming.  You also learn to maintain a range that enables you enough reaction time to see what is coming.  Then the defenses are more based on a "zone" defense rather than particular techniques.  So you defend a "gate" or "zone" rather than trying to "catch" an attack.   And when you defend you use the shoulder as reference point and move towards it so that you are automatically off-balancing the opponent and moving away from a follow up strike at the same time.  Maul is very good at this and invites people at his seminars to launch random fast attacks at him....empty hand and training knife/sword.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2018)

KPM said:


> ---Depends on how you train. Again, taking Maul Mornie's SSBD as an example, they drill a feed of strikes at various angles that are somewhat exaggerated so that a student gets used to quickly seeing the angle coming. You also learn to maintain a range that enables you enough reaction time to see what is coming. Then the defenses are more based on a "zone" defense rather than particular techniques. So you defend a "gate" or "zone" rather than trying to "catch" an attack. And when you defend you use the shoulder as reference point and move towards it so that you are automatically off-balancing the opponent and moving away from a follow up strike at the same time. Maul is very good at this and invites people at his seminars to launch random fast attacks at him....empty hand and training knife/sword.


This sounds like something you have been told and not actually able to do.  I'm going to look up Maul Mornie's videos to see if there is one of him free sparring and doing this same thing.   The Demo Invite of "Come up and try to hit me " is not the same as free sparring.   People can do a lot of things in the context of a Demo that they can't do in free sparring.  

I don't know who Maul Mornie is so I'm going to do some research on that first.


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## Martial D (Sep 9, 2018)

KPM said:


> Or.....Mr. Attacker is expecting an easy mark and when he meets determined (and skilled) resistance his resolve dissolves.  I agree that some of the Kenpo-like things you see....as in the  video that DB shared...where the defender is doing a scripted response of about 12 things, is not at all realistic.  But what someone like Maul Mornie is often teaching in seminars is the initial response or entry, and then multiple ways to continue from the entry depending upon how the initial attacker reacts.


Huh.

That seems like calling the edge in a coinflip from here.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2018)

KPM said:


> *From what I've seen on self-defense seminar videos, most instructors don't factor the "what if scenarios."  to answer: (maybe someone can speak differently from the experience of physically being in one.)
> 1. what happens if I get it wrong
> 2. what do I do if I get it wrong
> 3. what do to if the the attacker is able to defeat my attempts*
> ...


I just looked up Maul Mornie and he doesn't do any of the things that I said was really difficult to do such as catching a punch.  He uses a lot of redirects and striking of the arm which is totally different.   Defending a "gate" or "zone" as you state is not the same as catching, which is what I was talking about in reference to the Self-defense video.  Striking incoming punches is much easier, your arm is longer so I have more opportunity and time to strike the arm before it clears. 

Freestyle Silat




You know what you don't see?  These 2 catching punches.  You know why?  Because it's really difficult to do? It's not impossible, just really difficult.  If you can interfere with an incoming punch or an exiting punch then you can increase your chances of being successful, but even then it's really difficult.


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> A 20 hit combo is the least of your worries here lol.  There was a lot of things that weren't applied correctly.
> 
> From what I've seen on self-defense seminar videos, most instructors don't factor the "what if scenarios."  to answer: (maybe someone can speak differently from the experience of physically being in one.)
> 1. what happens if I get it wrong
> ...


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


>


I'm not a fan of BJJ, but yeah, he was spot on 100% on everything he said.  He even acknowledge the different between Fighting and Arresting.  Which I thought was awesome.  He stated that he didn't want to be in a position where he was tied to the ground, again awesome.   Then he brought up the wrist locks, while they aren't useless and they aren't garbage, they are extremely difficult to pull off.  The more the body sweats the more difficulty you'll have.   Those joint and wrist locks require tremendous hand strength.

My guess is that all of his years of BJJ would give him better hand strength for gripping than what most kung fu and other martial arts have.   I've been grabbed by a wrestler before, and right away I could tell the difference between his grip strength and mine.  The grip strength alone alerted me that I was in a bad situation.  

If a person can pull off a wrist lock then great.  Totally awesome, but that crap ain't happening after a seminar.  If a person wants to be able to use stuff like that then they will need to train it as if they were professional Chin Na fighters.

This is your best bet 










Because once this happens, You'll need to really be highly skilled to pull it off.  It gets even more difficult when punches start flying.   Keep in mind it's possible, but not like what is often shown in demos.  .





I think I have the answer to part of the puzzle of how it works, but I don't have the grip strength nor the forearm conditioning to really test it and pull off, and that's just for one technique where I'm trying to get my hand into position to grab. Here's what I know from experience.
1. I know if I get it wrong my arm takes a beating
2. Because of weak hands if feels like my fingers nails are trying to grab and hold on vs my fingers locking the grip.
3. I only feel comfortable working on the outside, which means I have to stand a certain way in order to have an opportunity to grab the punching hand.
4. I feel as if I try to work the inside of the arm, that I'm going to get punched with the other hand.  I have no Trust in the technique because I'm too scared to "man up" and get hit in the face if I get it wrong.  Normally it's not a big deal but in this case, my head would be wide open.
5.  I have a bad habit of "chasing hands" that I need to get rid of.  This is where the person becomes so focused on trying to grab a hand or arm that they leave everything else open.  

One day I'll get it but not without some serious training and conditioning, which at the moment,  I'm not all that excited about getting into.  For me, some of the traditional kung fu conditioning is just boring, so my mind really needs to be focus and calm, because it takes time to do it right.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 9, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Catching punches are also very difficult ...


It's not that difficult if you do it in 2 steps. When your opponent throws a right punch,

- you use left hand to redirect his punch arm (at his elbow joint) to your right,
- you then use your right hand to catch his wrist.


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I just looked up Maul Mornie and he doesn't do any of the things that I said was really difficult to do such as catching a punch.  He uses a lot of redirects and striking of the arm which is totally different.   Defending a "gate" or "zone" as you state is not the same as catching, which is what I was talking about in reference to the Self-defense video.  Striking incoming punches is much easier, your arm is longer so I have more opportunity and time to strike the arm before it clears.
> 
> Freestyle Silat
> 
> ...



His first fight?

But yeah. You can't  see punches at speed and once you have eaten a couple the mechanics change.

And they were bombs getting thrown there. Exactly the sort of shots that are supposed to be designed for counters. And yet in my experience. Don't get countered and often don't even get blocked. 

I know I struggle to do it. And that is even simple block punch krav stuff that I spent far too much time trying to make work.


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's not that difficult if you do it in 2 steps. When your opponent throws a right punch,
> 
> - you use left hand to redirect his punch arm (at his elbow joint) to your right,
> - you then use your right hand to catch his wrist.



Still doesn't work. You see it with knife defence.


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not a fan of BJJ, but yeah, he was spot on 100% on everything he said. He even acknowledge the different between Fighting and Arresting. Which I thought was awesome. He stated that he didn't want to be in a position where he was tied to the ground, again awesome. Then he brought up the wrist locks, while they aren't useless and they aren't garbage, they are extremely difficult to pull off. The more the body sweats the more difficulty you'll have. Those joint and wrist locks require tremendous hand strength.



He is talking about industry training wristlocks. Which from my experience are consistantly trained wrong.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Still doesn't work. You see it with knife defence.


Knife can react farther than the fist can.

I saw it worked in a challenge fight with my own eyes. It's like you use your arms to set up a trap. Your leading arm at your opponent's elbow joint, and your back arm at your opponent's wrist joint. When your opponent punches at you, you lean your upper body back 30 - 45 degree. This will give you enough time and space to set up your trap.


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think I have the answer to part of the puzzle of how it works, but I don't have the grip strength nor the forearm conditioning to really test it and pull off, and that's just for one technique where I'm trying to get my hand into position to grab. Here's what I know from experience.
> 1. I know if I get it wrong my arm takes a beating
> 2. Because of weak hands if feels like my fingers nails are trying to grab and hold on vs my fingers locking the grip.
> 3. I only feel comfortable working on the outside, which means I have to stand a certain way in order to have an opportunity to grab the punching hand.
> ...



Learn to clinch. Because then the arm stops moving. It is almost always shoulder to wrist because  the shoulder moves more slowly.


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I saw it worked in a challenge fight with my own eyes. It's like you use your arms to set up a trap. Your leading arm at your opponent's elbow joint, and your back arm at your opponent's wrist joint. When your opponent punches at you, you lean your upper body back 30 - 45 degree. This will give you enough time and space to set up your trap.



It needs to be consistent and conservative. Otherwise we would all be doing flying arm bars,


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> It needs to be consistent and conservative. Otherwise we would all be doing flying arm bars,


It's all about timing. You don't deal with the non-committed jab. You wait for the committed cross.

-Tap on the jab, tap on the jab,
- tap on the cross, catch the cross, lean your upper body back, spin your body, and "crack" that punching arm.

The reason that vertical fist was invented in CMA because people's arms had been cracked before.


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## pdg (Sep 9, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's all about timing. You don't deal with the non-committed jab. You wait for the committed cross.
> 
> -Tap on the jab, tap on the jab,
> - tap on the cross, catch the cross, lean your upper body back, spin your body, and "crack" that punching arm.
> ...



If by "committed cross" you mean over extended with the body turned fully sideways, you'll be waiting forever against anyone I know


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## KPM (Sep 9, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> This sounds like something you have been told and not actually able to do.  I'm going to look up Maul Mornie's videos to see if there is one of him free sparring and doing this same thing.   The Demo Invite of "Come up and try to hit me " is not the same as free sparring.   People can do a lot of things in the context of a Demo that they can't do in free sparring.
> 
> I don't know who Maul Mornie is so I'm going to do some research on that first.



Now see....that attitude is exactly what I was talking about at the beginning of this thread.  This whole attitude that sparring is the litmus test of fighting ability.  Why is that?  Is that appropriate or accurate?  Please refer to the OP.   And don't bother searching for free sparring footage because you won't find it.  His art is not a "sparring art", which was the whole point of my OP.


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## KPM (Sep 9, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I just looked up Maul Mornie and he doesn't do any of the things that I said was really difficult to do such as catching a punch.  .



And let me repeat what I said in my prior post......."So you defend a "gate" or "zone" rather than trying to "catch" an attack."   In other words.....he is not trying to "catch a punch."


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## KPM (Sep 9, 2018)

You can train to see and predict strikes coming at you. 






You can train to set up an opponent and transition quickly to different responses that to outsiders will look "scripted" and impossible to pull off.  But that is not necessarily true.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's not that difficult if you do it in 2 steps.


I'll believe the "It's not difficult" part when I see it.   I yet to see anyone do this in a free sparring or competitive fight environment.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> He is talking about industry training wristlocks. Which from my experience are consistantly trained wrong.


What would be an industry trained wrist lock?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2018)

KPM said:


> And let me repeat what I said in my prior post......."So you defend a "gate" or "zone" rather than trying to "catch" an attack."   In other words.....he is not trying to "catch a punch."


But I was referring to catching an attack.  The literal grabbing of a punch either coming, extended, or returning to chamber.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2018)

KPM said:


> You can train to see and predict strikes coming at you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But this isn't the stuff that I'm saying is difficult to do.  You and I are talking about 2 different things.


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## Martial D (Sep 9, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll believe the "It's not difficult" part when I see it.   I yet to see anyone do this in a free sparring or competitive fight environment.


Right? Whenever I hear 'X will work given y,z,and w, but there is no way to actually test it but watch these guys cooperating to make it work!', my eyes glaze over.


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2018)

KPM said:


> Now see....that attitude is exactly what I was talking about at the beginning of this thread.  This whole attitude that sparring is the litmus test of fighting ability.  Why is that?  Is that appropriate or accurate?  Please refer to the OP.   And don't bother searching for free sparring footage because you won't find it.  His art is not a "sparring art", which was the whole point of my OP.



Except we can see the transition of sparring directly as it relates to real life.

I mean BJJ is a specific example and a kind of cool one because it is also a specific method.

We see footage of cops using methods of sparring to apply directly to police work. These methods don't even go out the window for streeter or even more applicable methods.

In other words cops who do BJJ do BJJ on the street when in theory they should at least be doing MMA. 









We do not see these non sparring applications travel further than non.


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> What would be an industry trained wrist lock?

















Buy the way. The straight arm bar takedown they are doing. Doesn't work like that. And at that angle. And it looked like the guy teaching was demonstrating it wrong.

So I assume everyone just gets the stop resisting knee massage.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Buy the way. The straight arm bar takedown they are doing. Doesn't work like that. And at that angle. And it looked like the guy teaching was demonstrating it wrong.
> 
> So I assume everyone just gets the stop resisting knee massage.


Woooooooow.. If that's industry standard then I'm glad I was unfamiliar with it.  I cried when the Police in the 3rd video were grabbing the fingers instead of grabbing the wrist and no one corrected that.  

Even if they wanted to be safe with the wrist locks, they would still need to grab the wrist so they can understand what part of the wrist they are actually targeting.  Wow. that was just horrible.  Something that could have easily been correct simply by reading a good Chin Na book that has details.  The knees were brutal.  Not the first thing I think of when trying to break structure lol.

This is how my mind works  Knee to the thigh = degrade mobility,  Knee to the ribs = break ribs.  I used to always wonder about the arrests on T.V. when I see the police kneeing the suspect in the thigh.  I just couldn't figure out the purpose of it beyond affecting mobility, and even then you have to get in a couple of shots before that occurs.  It's not going to break their structure like what was said in that video.  It's really clear when someone's structure is broken and 90% of the time it takes less force than kneeing someone in the thigh and expecting them to go down.  Knees to the ribs is just going to make someone try to protect the ribs, it's not going to make someone relax and comply, then pray that they won't get kneed while in a relaxed state.  Talk about the wrong technique for goal that they want to accomplish.


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## TMA17 (Sep 10, 2018)

I'm not sure it's as black and white as many make it.  It's a complex topic.  Doing forms only isn't going to help you much.  You certainly need to test what you learn whether it be light sparring or any type of resistance.  In good Krav, they have people hold pads up, put you in holds with resistance or suit up in an entire padded suit and you fight.  Scenario based.  It's  how you perform under pressure is what Krav instills in you.  A very instinctual aggressive manner.  When I was at my MMA gym, my instructor was a big proponent of sparring.  He felt it was very important, and it is to some degree.

I would conclude that MMA will always produce the best fighters.  They train harder than anyone and are using the most effective martial arts that work in a combat sport environment.  You learn how to fight by fighting.

I would put things like Krav and other SD systems as a second rate tier, but still good for handling most situations you're likely to encounter.  Someone that stays in shape and practices Krav Maga/JKD etc. is going to still have more tools than they would have had they not trained in anything!  Therefore it's still a positive.

When I was at the Moy Yat school, we sparred.  However, .....let's just say the movements WC has were not condusive or ideal (for me) as I would nauturally would want to fight.  That's where you get into style/system/movement differences.  For example, a WC guy will have you stand or move in a certain way during a specific siutation compared to say boxing. So styles and systems do matter to me it's not just the training.

You're never going to do better than MMA in terms becoming a top level fighter.  MMA will always produce the best fighters.

Israeli KM does a lot of this:











This is pressure testing.


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## TMA17 (Sep 10, 2018)

Rear naked choke escape. Nick was a bouncer and puts up some interesting clips on what works and what doesn't in the real world.






More than one way to skin a cat.







Krav instructor near me does it similar to both of these guys.  Being a Judo guy he throws his leg out and behind him and tosses the guy.

Sorry I went a bit off topic here.


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## Danny T (Sep 10, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> This is pressure testing.


Hmm.
Not in my opinion. This is more of drilling under the pretense of pressure. It is a step toward pressure testing. There is no real attacking going on and no real pressure being applied. Not discounting it...it is a good stepping stone but isn't really pressure testing.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Learn to clinch. Because then the arm stops moving. It is almost always shoulder to wrist because  the shoulder moves more slowly.


Normally I would have just gone with this, but I really want to be able to learn how to use the techniques in my system because I think they are valid.  I just suck at doing that particular technique so I gotta step up the effort and train my hands as if I really want to learn how to apply these techniques.

Your statement shoulder to wrist is actually how I tray to grab punches now.   I do what I refer to as "Shaving a punch" The entry of the punch allows me set up hand placement around the upper forearm near the shoulder.  Then I try to grab and lock the wrist when my opponent is trying to chamber that punch.  This way I can start form a large grip and make it smaller as the forearm becomes narrow as my opponent pulls his arm back.  The goal is to not allow my opponent's fist to slip through my grip.  I think of the fist like a big knot on the end of the string, that can't pass through a tube.  From here I can better find the joint of the wrist where I need to separate the bone of the wrist from the bone of the forearm.

It'll just take some time  probably a year or more of serious training practice to get to that point where that will work.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You don't deal with the non-committed jab. You wait for the committed cross.


This is why I like brawlers.  All of their punches are fully committed and over committed.

Ironically things get easier once a person's fully committed to a punch or kick.


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## drop bear (Sep 10, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Normally I would have just gone with this, but I really want to be able to learn how to use the techniques in my system because I think they are valid.  I just suck at doing that particular technique so I gotta step up the effort and train my hands as if I really want to learn how to apply these techniques.
> 
> Your statement shoulder to wrist is actually how I tray to grab punches now.   I do what I refer to as "Shaving a punch" The entry of the punch allows me set up hand placement around the upper forearm near the shoulder.  Then I try to grab and lock the wrist when my opponent is trying to chamber that punch.  This way I can start form a large grip and make it smaller as the forearm becomes narrow as my opponent pulls his arm back.  The goal is to not allow my opponent's fist to slip through my grip.  I think of the fist like a big knot on the end of the string, that can't pass through a tube.  From here I can better find the joint of the wrist where I need to separate the bone of the wrist from the bone of the forearm.
> 
> It'll just take some time  probably a year or more of serious training practice to get to that point where that will work.



I would have to see it.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2018)

what do you have to see? so I can remember to create a video of me using it.


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## Martial D (Sep 10, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I'm not sure it's as black and white as many make it.  It's a complex topic.  Doing forms only isn't going to help you much.  You certainly need to test what you learn whether it be light sparring or any type of resistance.  In good Krav, they have people hold pads up, put you in holds with resistance or suit up in an entire padded suit and you fight.  Scenario based.  It's  how you perform under pressure is what Krav instills in you.  A very instinctual aggressive manner.  When I was at my MMA gym, my instructor was a big proponent of sparring.  He felt it was very important, and it is to some degree.
> 
> I would conclude that MMA will always produce the best fighters.  They train harder than anyone and are using the most effective martial arts that work in a combat sport environment.  You learn how to fight by fighting.
> 
> ...


Ehh. Sort of.

In vid one it's guys in gear doing what looks to be some sort of head first battering ram attack with their hands at their sides while the girl wails away on them to 0 effect. Not sure what that is supposed to approximate?

Vid two shows a guy trying to burst through a wall of pads followed by taking a bunch of sticks off guys that aren't trying to hit him with them.

Not sure when you'd ever see anything like this out there in the world. I mean, maybe if a bunch of armless men steal all your sticks and hide them behind pads I could see this as a pressure test for that.


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## drop bear (Sep 10, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> what do you have to see? so I can remember to create a video of me using it.



I am just not sure what you are describing there


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## pdg (Sep 11, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Not sure when you'd ever see anything like this out there in the world. I mean, maybe if a bunch of armless men steal all your sticks and hide them behind pads I could see this as a pressure test for that.



You've never had a bunch of armless men steal your sticks?


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## Martial D (Sep 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> You've never had a bunch of armless men steal your sticks?


I did have my toe run over by a legless man's wheelchair once.


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## pdg (Sep 11, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I did have my toe run over by a legless man's wheelchair once.








You knew that was coming, right


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I am just not sure what you are describing there


I'll have to make a video of it one day.


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## Hanzou (Sep 13, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ehh. Sort of.
> 
> In vid one it's guys in gear doing what looks to be some sort of head first battering ram attack with their hands at their sides while the girl wails away on them to 0 effect. Not sure what that is supposed to approximate?
> 
> ...



I gotta agree. I don't see the point of holding back like that when everyone is wearing padding. Also in the top vid, there's no way one of those guys wouldn't be trying to take that woman to the ground. What's worse, given her defenses, it wouldn't have been hard to do so. Weird stuff all around, and the scary thing is that woman actually thinks she could stop men of that size from attacking her.

In the second vid, again I'm not understanding the point of doing a multiple-attack scenario if a person standing behind you with a stick is going to wait until you're ready to defend yourself. That's not realistic by any stretch of the imagination, and makes the entire exercise pointless.


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## Martial D (Sep 13, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> In the second vid, again I'm not understanding the point of doing a multiple-attack scenario if a person standing behind you with a stick is going to wait until you're ready to defend yourself. That's not realistic by any stretch of the imagination, and makes the entire exercise pointless.



I think you are giving TOO MUCH credit here to be frank. Even after they wait for them to be ready, they still aren't actually swinging. It's all slow motion and exagerated.


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## TMA17 (Sep 13, 2018)

The only thing I would say is it’s better than just doing forms.  At least there is some pressure.  So many schools just do forms, especially in WC.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 13, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> The only thing I would say is it’s better than just doing forms.  At least there is some pressure.  So many schools just do forms, especially in WC.


I don’t think too many (or any, actually) people advocate doing only forms and nothing else.   Forms, like anything, including sparring, is one of many tools that can have a home in your toolbox.  But you can’t build a house with only one tool.  It takes several tools to get the job done.

How much have you seen, to say that so many schools [in wing chun] only do forms?  Have you watched every training session, from start to finish?  Is forms perhaps the only thing they were showing publically?  Any chance there were other things going on behind closed doors, while you were not watching?  What percentage of all wing chun schools have you explored, to make such a statement?


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## TMA17 (Sep 13, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t think too many (or any, actually) people advocate doing only forms and nothing else.   Forms, like anything, including sparring, is one of many tools that can have a home in your toolbox.  But you can’t build a house with only one tool.  It takes several tools to get the job done.
> 
> How much have you seen, to say that so many schools [in wing chun] only do forms?  Have you watched every training session, from start to finish?  Is forms perhaps the only thing they were showing publically?  Any chance there were other things going on behind closed doors, while you were not watching?  What percentage of all wing chun schools have you explored, to make such a statement?




Well the TWC near me did zero sparring at all.  You paired up with someone and did forms/motions (often times poor quality).  Moy Yat we sparred a little.  My private instructor we did not spar at all.  I can't speak for most WC schools, but overall the pressure testing was non-existant other than chi sao.


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## Martial D (Sep 13, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> The only thing I would say is it’s better than just doing forms.  At least there is some pressure.  So many schools just do forms, especially in WC.


Which is fine if you want to be really good....at doing forms.

It all depends where your focus is.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 13, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Well the TWC near me did zero sparring at all.  You paired up with someone and did forms/motions (often times poor quality).  Moy Yat we sparred a little.  My private instructor we did not spar at all.  I can't speak for most WC schools, but overall the pressure testing was non-existant other than chi sao.


That is a reflection of the schools where you trained.  Within that context, that is a fair enough observation.


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## geezer (Sep 13, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Well the TWC near me did zero sparring at all.  You paired up with someone and did forms/motions (often times poor quality).  Moy Yat we sparred a little.  My private instructor we did not spar at all.  I can't speak for most WC schools, but overall the pressure testing was non-existant other than chi sao.



This is pretty typical of the WC schools I've experienced. The guys in my group included. 

I'm working on changing that, but personally, now that I'm in my mid 60's I have more limitations.  Moreover, in the past when I pushed in that direction, some students_ left_. Maybe they wanted the form but not the content? Regardless, when you run a really small club, that can mean not making rent. So, that meant getting my own experience with friends outside the WC group.

Anybody else encounter a situation like this?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2018)

geezer said:


> This is pretty typical of the WC schools I've experienced. The guys in my group included.
> 
> I'm working on changing that, but personally, now that I'm in my mid 60's I have more limitations.  Moreover, in the past when I pushed in that direction, some students_ left_. Maybe they wanted the form but not the content? Regardless, when you run a really small club, that can mean not making rent. So, that meant getting my own experience with friends outside the WC group.
> 
> Anybody else encounter a situation like this?


yes.  but there has been a really big shift lately for what I practice.   I personally like it as I believed that the focus was going to much on lion dance and other parts about the martial art were being forgotten.  Lion dances help to pay the bills but it was at the cost of neglecting other important areas such as functional.  Ironically the same things I used to get in trouble for are the same things that are being pushed to the front of training.  Which is good because it will allow the system to grow as long as the focus of remains on  functional Jow Ga.


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## yak sao (Sep 14, 2018)

geezer said:


> This is pretty typical of the WC schools I've experienced. The guys in my group included.
> 
> I'm working on changing that, but personally, now that I'm in my mid 60's I have more limitations.  Moreover, in the past when I pushed in that direction, some students_ left_. Maybe they wanted the form but not the content? Regardless, when you run a really small club, that can mean not making rent. So, that meant getting my own experience with friends outside the WC group.
> 
> Anybody else encounter a situation like this?



Unfortunately yes. WC used to be the domain of Fighters.
We seem to be turning into a streamlined version of Tai Chi.


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## Cephalopod (Sep 14, 2018)

geezer said:


> ...  *Moreover, in the past when I pushed in that direction, some students left.* Maybe they wanted the form but not the content?
> ...



I wonder if that was because they perceived the sparring to be a significant departure from the rest of the skills they were being instructed to develop? Here's what i'm thinking:

For years I studied a different TCMA and the majority of time was spent on forms, pair drills, and equipments training. When we sparred, we would gear up and have at each other. Well, I was a younger man and I enjoyed the heck out of it but so many techniques we were spending so much time learning in the forms and pair drills were, by my perception, unusable in sparring. Instead I would stick with the simple punching and kicking that I had developed with the equipments training. This disconnect between forms and sparring always bothered me, I felt like I was missing the point.

Of course, years later I realized I was right. I _was_ missing the point. I simply had not developed enough as a martial artist to understand the principles of that style and how to apply them.

In the WC club where I am today sparring essentially evolved out of chi-sao. Starting with stationary poon-sao rolling it became more and more freestyle with body movement and footwork, playing with speed and heavy power, breaking contact and reconnecting. Eventually from 'hands down' distance we're coming at each other with whatever we've got.

But always using this a platform of testing and better understanding the basic principles from the forms. And the aim is generally to save the full power strike for when you know it's going to land, when you've dominated center, controlled distance and balance etc. At that point we pattern the body movement and muscle engagement for power delivery but of course we don't release it through the fist into the guy's noggin. Unless we really hate our training partner. 

Now I hesitate to call it sparring because we don't glove up and circle each other, tapping at each other's hands and launching overcommited strikes at uncertain targets. (No, I'm not trying to disparage the sparring game at large. It's just that's the way I remember sparring from my younger years). But I do know that this freestyle gor-sao, if you want to call it that, is way more powerful and intense as a testing platform then the sparring that we did back then, and New Me would put Old Me though a wall. And yet, apart from an occasional busted lip we tend to get hurt a lot less and, from a newbie perspective, there aren't all those 'scary' uncontrolled glove shots to the face.

Okay, I guess that was just a defense of my choice of sparring style. But my point was, when a newbie comes into our group I can point out the logical trajectory to get from the basic dan chi-sao that he/she will be working on to the significantly more hard-core clashes that the advanced students will be working on right next to him.

If the beginner were to see the advanced students in a ring trading blows, he/she might have a harder time appreciating the connection to the principles and drills being learned... and might be intimidated by all those loud smacks and bloody noses!


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