# Whats everyone's thought on this?



## HooT (Mar 25, 2009)

just doing a copy and past from bullshido about the disadvantages of wing chun?

also, anyone know where one could get lessons in Xiangfan, Hubei province what the average cost would be? ta

*The disadvantages of Wing Chun are*



 It has no real ground game.
 The footwork is very linear, and not flexible the way foot work is in such arts/sport as Western Boxing.
 Because many of the hand techniques involve eye jabs, and bare hand strikes, most Wing Chun schools do not spar full contact.
 After the 1960s there do not seem to be many Wing Chun students who have tested their skills in public full contact contests where the results could be filmed and evaluated.
 Students spend a lot of time on the chi sao exercise to improve sensitivity. While being able to feel what your opponent is doing by touch is a useful skill, the average person who attacks you will not be holding his hands like a Wing Chun student, so most of this skill is not applicable to real life.


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## seasoned (Mar 25, 2009)

HooT said:


> just doing a copy and past from bullshido about the disadvantages of wing chun?
> 
> also, anyone know where one could get lessons in Xiangfan, Hubei province what the average cost would be? ta
> 
> ...


Welcome aboard, and good luck on your first post.


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## HooT (Mar 25, 2009)

thanks 

was just looking to see what you guys ( who do wing chun already ) think of that statement from that bullshido site


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## KamonGuy2 (Mar 25, 2009)

Welcome Hoot...

The statement is very generalized
Whilst most of it is true for a lot of wing chun schools, some of it is incorrect

I agree 100% with the ground game comment

Footwork is not linear (even traditionalists use huen bo (circle step) and triangular step

I don't think too many schools use eye jabs. It is banned in Kamon classes (ie we aren't even allowed to pretend to eye jab as it can go drastically wrong)
We spar full contact, but according to a students level and the size/shape of the opponent. Most wing chun schools will apply hits with bare knucle against chest or face during drills

Full contact contests are pretty much non existant. You have contests where you glove up and fight (UFC, knockdown, etc) but I really have a grudge with people who use the term 'full contact' for these tournaments
It is definately not the same kind of contests that reigned in the 60s, which were bare knuckle, fight to the death kind of contests 
But as for pressure testing or fighting in tournaments, I do this regularly and have won a few
If you speak to Si-je, her hubby is currently working on organising a cage event

Sensitivity is extremely important, but it is not inherent to wing chun. BJJ use it and so do arts such as fencing or aiido
But yes, chunners tend to rely a lot on chi sao/sensitivity drills too much sometimes. In Kamon we do as much padwork as a lot of boxing schools and work on everything from clinchwork, to sparring, to formwork, to padwork, to feeding techniques

You will find that Bullshido has a hatred for wing chun which is sad, because there are a few good styles out there, especially in London

My instructor, Kevin Chan is a black belt in BJJ, extremely proficient in boxing and kickboxing and would make more money teaching any of those. But instead he ended up opening wing chun schools because he genuinely believes that the art is effective
I have seen good wing chun performed in street situations and it is extremely effective
Boxing and MT are good arts, but an average guy knows about them and knows what to expect (ie they can roll with your punches)


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## redantstyle (Mar 25, 2009)

b.s says what? about-ing -un?

it's > moothai, boxing, and judo?

zomg...

troll much?


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## HooT (Mar 25, 2009)

thats a fantastic reply,  thanks a LOT for taking the time out to type that 

im 26 from Australia,but im heading to China next month. ill be teaching english over there BUT that is the best way to get me there and earn a bit of cash.

its in Hubei, from what i have found it shouldnt be too hard to ask someone to teach me?    i have done zero martial arts or anything, im not looking to break people or any of that crap, but, if i get myself in a situation where the other person is clearly not going to bugger off, then i want to be able to defend myself.     if you train say for example once or twice over a 12 month period, and try your hardest  ie. dont piss about,   how much do you think one could learn over that time period?

as long as it aint 50 bucks for one lesson ill be trying to do it on a regular basis


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## HooT (Mar 25, 2009)

redantstyle said:


> b.s says what? about-ing -un?
> 
> it's > moothai, boxing, and judo?
> 
> ...



i dont get what u mean exactly ?


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## mook jong man (Mar 25, 2009)

I have no thoughts on anything thats said on bullshido because to do so would lower my intelligence quotient.
 So I will leave you with this .

1. Western boxing has no ground game either but still is quite effective.

2. Fencing footwork is very linear also but quite fast and explosive.

3. To spar with full contact to the head will have long term consequences
    to your brain , we go hard on the body and semi contact to the head.

4. Most Wing Chun people do it for self defence of themselves and their 
   loved ones on the street , and don't give a rats **** about competition. 
   Its only meant to be used as a last resort in a dire situation when you 
   have no other choice , not as a spectacle for the public .

5. This is where people always misunderstand the reason for chi sau , the 
   person doesn't have to be holding their arms like a Wing Chun student.

   The only reason that I would be using chi sau is if you are blocking my
   strikes , if you arent putting your arms up to block then I have no need 
   to use chi sau , I will just hit straight through.

   It is just used for that split second in a fight where my strike has been 
   obstructed , and because my responses have been drilled in chi sau I 
   don't have to waste time trying to withdraw my strike or even thinking.
   The obstruction will be moved out of the way with a minimum of 
   movement and striking is continued .

   Most fights will involve some sort of contact with the opponents arms 
   and at close range the responses have to be automatic , there is no 
   time for conscious thought and when you consider that a lot of assaults
   on the street happen in low levels of light the Wing Chun man will have 
   an advantage up his sleeve once arm contact is gained because he 
   won't have to depend on his vision to know what you are about to do.


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## graychuan (Mar 25, 2009)

Very informed post by Mook Jong Man. I would just like to highlight some of the important points....




mook jong man said:


> *I have no thoughts on anything thats said on bullshido because to do so would lower my intelligence quotient.*
> *So I will leave you with this .*
> 
> *1. Western boxing has no ground game either but still is quite effective.*
> ...


 
:ultracool:ultracool 'nuff said! :ultracool:ultracool


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 25, 2009)

My thoughts are that the source site there has low opinions of anything that doesn't involve rolling around on the ground in an intimate embrace with another man. That "crap" is anything they don't understand, can't do, or that doesn't show up on a UFC PPV.  So, I have little respect for anything they say. In fact, if they told me fire was hot, and ice was cold, I'd get another opinion, just because they are usually so far from being right, it's just smarter.

As to Wing Chun, it's ok. If you spend all day playing patty cake, you'll be good against kids. If you train right, it's quite effective. Good luck.


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## mook jong man (Mar 25, 2009)

graychuan said:


> Very informed post by Mook Jong Man. I would just like to highlight some of the important points....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thanks mate , good to see you back on the forum again , you been busy ?


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## HooT (Mar 25, 2009)

thanks very much for all that   :>)

i only know how to fight when im drunk with my mates with fire............   lol in other words just messin around,  but i would like to learn something that is useful.

i have never seen ufc or any of that, by the crap that gets around on the internet saying its the best thing ever, well, thats great, except i dont care.
wing chun just looks effective whilst not emphasizing on strength etc


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## graychuan (Mar 25, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Thanks mate , good to see you back on the forum again , you been busy ?


 
Starting back school in the fall. Lot o red tape and such. Still busy teaching tho. All is fine and thanks for asking.


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## AceHBK (Mar 25, 2009)

Yeah I relly wouldn't listen to the folks on that site.  Most WC people who aren't blinded with their own "my art is superior than every other art"are more than willing to tell you the short commings of their art right along with how great their art is.

I have been on that site and after leaving it I was dumber for it.  Took 2 weeks to recover.


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## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 25, 2009)

HooT said:


> Students spend a lot of time on the chi sao exercise to &#8220;improve sensitivity&#8221;. While being able to feel what your opponent is doing by touch is a useful skill, the average person who attacks you will not be holding his hands like a Wing Chun student, so most of this skill is not applicable to real life.



Alright, all your other questions were in my opinion answered in a way that I myself would have answered them, except for this one. I've found Chi Sao to be a pretty useful tool for woking with as far as that particular range of combat goes and I'm not a Kung Fu person. As long as you undertsand that Chi Sao isn't just about being touchy feely and is actually a tool to help in what I consider medium range engagement. Ofcourse, a good Wing Chun (or any Kung Fu) practitioner isn't going to rely on Chi Sao alone. They're going to learn how to bridge as well as possibly how to clinch. Oh and one other point, I've seen some pretty competitive Chi Sao sessions where losing control meant your opponent got to lock you up and/or smack ya around the head.

BTW: Just looked at your location. I'm in Queensland myself. Brisbane to be precise. You're leaving next month so I doubt you'll have time. But if you want to trade hands I'll be glad to oblige.


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## HooT (Mar 25, 2009)

ummmm  i have never done ANY martial arts ever.   so at least give me a few months to get used to it!! lol

i live in western Qld, out in the bush, so China is gonna be a helluva lot different.
but when i go back to Uni in Brisbane is there anywhere in Brisvegas that teaches a bit of WC?

Cheers mate


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## mook jong man (Mar 26, 2009)

HooT said:


> ummmm i have never done ANY martial arts ever. so at least give me a few months to get used to it!! lol
> 
> i live in western Qld, out in the bush, so China is gonna be a helluva lot different.
> but when i go back to Uni in Brisbane is there anywhere in Brisvegas that teaches a bit of WC?
> ...


 
Check some of these out mate , go and do trial lessons and see which one you like the best.

http://www.vingtsunvk.com.au/ 

http://www.wingtsun-brisbane.com/ 

http://www.wingchun-kungfu.com.au/schools/schools.shtml 

http://brisbane.citysearch.com.au/E/V/BRISB/0030/99/86/1.html


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## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 26, 2009)

The places mook jong man posted look good. I hadn't realized Del-Brocco had returned to the CBD and was once again teaching BJJ. So if you're concerned with the ground aspect, I'd say definately check out Del-Brocco's school: http://brisbane.citysearch.com.au/E/...0/99/86/1.html

Oh just one thing and please don't be discouraged by this. When one of my instructors went to China to study Chinese medicine he said some of the places were very commercialized. So if a place looks like a tourist trap, be wary. Better to find schools "word by mouth" as many of the best schools often require an introduction from an existing student. I wish you the best in your martial journey and if / when you come to Brisbane, feel free to PM me and look me up.


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## HooT (Mar 26, 2009)

yea i agree,  im not saying learning and stuff is better in china itself, but u never know i spose,  i was thinkin that there would be HEAPS of 'schools' or training centres, mcdojo's i guess.

im sure if i ask around and they see im very keen/interested to learn then someone should point me in the right direction.  its looking good tho because if classes are 600 aussie dollars a year here then hopefully i can afford it over there on 6000rmb a month 

im not looking to be a fighter or comps, any of that crap, i dont even get violent, most of the time i just bugger off and say ' gee, that guy was a wanka lol"

or the worst could happen and ill get sent to russia............... where wing chun is probally unkown


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## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 26, 2009)

HooT said:


> or the worst could happen and ill get sent to russia............... where wing chun is probally unkown



LOL. Oh well, hopefully the organization that's sending you to teach English overseas sends you to your first preference. If you end up in Russia, have a go at Sambo, it might be too competition orientated if that's not your thing but it's still a very effective system. And don't forget to try out your new skills on Fedor, that guys like a total push over. :uhyeah:


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## Flying Crane (Mar 26, 2009)

I'll give you my thoughts on this.  Firstly, I do not spend any time on Bullshido, so I haven't experienced the welcome mat over there.  But I've heard comments about how things go over there that give me a certain "picture", if you will.  At any rate, I don't spend any time thinking about or pondering what goes on at Bullshido.

As far as the comments about wing chun.  I've had the privilege to study several different martial arts over the years, including wing chun.  I do not consider myself an accomplished wing chunner, but I've learned all three of the hand sets, a little of the mook jong (currently forgotten), and I had a fairly decent (but not outstanding) chi sau game.  

I don't often have the opportunity to chi sau with anyone anymore, but I still practice my forms from time to time.  My focus in training has shifted away from wing chun, but I try to keep what I learned.

I have stopped trying to justify any of my arts to anybody.  If they rifle off a list of negatives, then they've made up their minds and I'm not gonna change that.  When it comes down to this, I figure, let them think my art sucks.  Why should I care?  It gives me the upper hand because they will underestimate me.  

**** 'em.   And don't worry about what they think.


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## redantstyle (Mar 26, 2009)

> i dont get what u mean exactly ?


 
litmus test.


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2009)

Thems Fighting Words said:


> LOL. Oh well, hopefully the organization that's sending you to teach English overseas sends you to your first preference. If you end up in Russia, have a go at Sambo, it might be too competition orientated if that's not your thing but it's still a very effective system. *And don't forget to try out your new skills on Fedor, that guys like a total push over*. :uhyeah:


 
Oh absolutely!! :lol:


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## dungeonworks (Mar 29, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> I'll give you my thoughts on this.  Firstly, I do not spend any time on Bullshido, so I haven't experienced the welcome mat over there.  But I've heard comments about how things go over there that give me a certain "picture", if you will.  At any rate, I don't spend any time thinking about or pondering what goes on at Bullshido.
> 
> As far as the comments about wing chun.  I've had the privilege to study several different martial arts over the years, including wing chun.  I do not consider myself an accomplished wing chunner, but I've learned all three of the hand sets, a little of the mook jong (currently forgotten), and I had a fairly decent (but not outstanding) chi sau game.
> 
> ...



I've spent some time there.  They have some decent people too...but they are not the majority.  Most are teen aged trash talkers with no respect and like minded grown adults that all believe MMA is where the sun rises and sets.  Bad manner's and disrespect is almost encouraged there, but if you do not have thick skin, you will not like it.

In a nut shell, on Bushido, if it is not MMA it is generally trashed.  I won't even get into how archaic the website itself is.  The layout alone gives me siezures just recalling the place by memory! LOL


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## Beginner's Mind (Apr 2, 2009)

Frankly, it's all true if you're considering the art for the UFC cage. 

1. True - it's a standup style. (I've seen schools where they practice ground game - perhaps that's a modern addition to cope with current trends.)

2. The footwork is suited for short-range, quick burst self-defense scenarios. Boxing footwork is for the arena. 

3. There are good and bad WC schools. We practice non-crippling techniques at full contact with and without protective gear. I'm often covered in bruises for weeks 

4. That's true, and that's really bad. It's undermining the community's confidence. Perhaps WC just isn't suited for the modern MMA arena. (Then again, if it's MIXED martial arts, which pure style is really suited for it?)

5. That's like saying weight training is bad, as real-life attackers are nothing like dumbells. Chi sau helps you react with efficiency and confidence to close combat situations.


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## geezer (Apr 2, 2009)

HooT said:


> just doing a copy and past from bullshido...
> *The disadvantages of Wing Chun are...*
> 
> 
> ...




I think "Beginner's Mind" had a pretty good take on this... these are pretty much the standard critcisms of bad WC. Like all generalizations, there is a grain of truth behind the stereotype... but I'd place good Wing Chun/Tsun second to none as a fighting art. How's _that _for objectivity?


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## Thems Fighting Words (Apr 8, 2009)

I ran into this place on the Net and thought you might find it useful: http://www.alliedgateway.cn/

Again I wish you the best of luck mate.


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## Joab (Apr 8, 2009)

HooT said:


> just doing a copy and past from bullshido about the disadvantages of wing chun?
> 
> also, anyone know where one could get lessons in Xiangfan, Hubei province what the average cost would be? ta
> 
> ...


 
Well, what can I say? This doesn't apply to the school I went to. I don't know what other Wing Chun schools do.


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## geezer (Apr 8, 2009)

Joab said:


> Well, what can I say? This doesn't apply to the school I went to. *I don't know what other Wing Chun schools do.*


 
_I don't know either!_ The schools I did know something about, mostly all in the same organization, varied a whole lot depending upon the skills and personality of the instructor. Which kind of brings up another point. The egos and jealosies so rampant in WC/WT (and the martial arts in general) don't always make it easy to have a friendly visit to the other guy's school. Maybe that's what I like about this forum. Anyway, that's a topic for another thread, I guess.


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