# What are the difference's in T.S.D. ?



## Mithios (Mar 3, 2004)

Are there any difference's in the T.S.D, that these organization's teach.and what are they ? Jae joon Kim(W.M.T.F.), C.S. Kim(I.T.F.),Jae Chul Shin(W.T.A.), Cheezic(C.T.F.). Feel free to ad other's ! Contrast&Compare.          Thank You ,     Mithios


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## Galvatron (Mar 3, 2004)

We (The U.T.F. under GM Pak-Song Ki) completely eliminated the Moo Duk Kwan hyung 21 years ago. They were replaced by a hyung set created by GM Pak.


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## Mithios (Mar 4, 2004)

Galvatron,  Thank's for the info ! I did not know that the U.T.F. doe's different hyung's. Do you know the old one's ? and if so,how do they compare to the U.T.F. form's.     Mithios


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## Galvatron (Mar 4, 2004)

I don't remember much of the Pyung Ahn forms. I was a wee little lad when GM Pak phased them out.
I see them done a lot at tournaments, and I've seen videos. I remember enough of them to know them when I see them.
I personally think that Pak's forms are more practical than the Moo Duk Kwan forms. They involve more kicking also.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 7, 2004)

The MDK are also going to have chil sung forms.  The closer they are to the grandmaster, Hwang Kee, the more of them you will find in the system.  TSD is a very interesting art.  There are so many splinters...but all of them lead back to Hwang Kee is some way, shape, or form.


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## Galvatron (Mar 7, 2004)

Our GM broke away from the Moo Duk Kwan back in 82 or so, replacing the forms was the first thing he did. 
A few were added in the early 90's to complete the set.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 8, 2004)

Galvatron said:
			
		

> Our GM broke away from the Moo Duk Kwan back in 82 or so, replacing the forms was the first thing he did.
> A few were added in the early 90's to complete the set.



Which TSD Federation do you belong to?  Who was your GM's instructor?


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## Galvatron (Mar 8, 2004)

United Tang Soo Do Federation
Grandmaster Pak-Song Ki
His instructor was Cha-Jae Won


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## mtabone (Mar 9, 2004)

I belong to the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan Association.

Our Association was created in 1995.

We have all three Ki Cho's.
All 5 Pyung Ahn's.
All Three Naihanji's.
All 7 Chil Sung's.
All 6 Yuk Ro's.
Bassai
Rho Hi
Chinto
Kun Sung Kun (spelling?)
Sip Soo
Tanto Hyung Cho Dan (Single)
Tanto Hyung Ee Dan (Double)
Bong Yun Ee Dan
O Sip Sam Bu
Wa Tao
Je Hun (spelling?)
Sholin Spear Form

There is some more, but this is really all I can remembere off the top of my head. This of course ranges over the course of ones training from white belt way up into the high master ranks. 

Also we have:

Ho Sin Sool: Self Defence/ grabs, throws, joint locks, grappling

Ill Soo Sik Dae Ryun: One step sparring/ learning how to get out of the way, counters, combinations, ect.

Weapons Defence
And I am sure a host of other things I am sure I am leaving out. 

The one big difference I have noticed from org. To org. Or Federation to Org. is what is emphisised. Some emphisis tournements. Some Emphisis tradion. Some emphisis streangth, some emphisis whatever else you would like to fill into the blank. It all depends on what is emphisised in my opionion. That is where a Org. gets its energy.

Tang Soo!!!
M.Tabone


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## progressivetactics (Mar 12, 2004)

I was a member of the First American Moo Duk Kwan, under GM Dale Drouillard for many years. He tried to keep things as close to original as possible, but just not sending money overseas, or bringing anymore koreans over here. He personally sponsered JJKim, Jae chul Kim, CI Kim, and from Tae Kwon Do fame Sang Kyu Shim.  

He later used the "best Karate' series by Nakayama as a base to forms, but with the Korean techniques he had learned.  He has now joined with Kang Uk Lee of England as part of the International TSD.

bb


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## Yossarian75 (Mar 17, 2004)

World Tang So Do association has the following forms

Sae kye hyung ill bu
Sae kye hyung ee bu
Sae kye hyung sam bu

These are similar to the kicho hyung but with kicks down the middle. Created by GM Shin.

Pyung Ahn 1-5
Bassai
Naihanchi Sho dan
Sip Soo
Naihanchi Ee dan
Naihanchi Sam dan
Chinto
Wang Shu
Konsansun
Rohai
Shi Shan
Jion
Oh Sip Sa Bo
So Rim Jang Kwon

There are also several weapon hyung from 4th gup onwards

Three bong Hyung( ill bu to sam bu)
dan gum hyng(knife)
sword forms
and a cane form

There are fifteen onesteps/ho sin sool per colour belt.

They use a black belt for dan ranking rather than the midnight blue,


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## karatekid1975 (Mar 17, 2004)

I trained under the International Martial Arts Association ( www.imahq.net ). We did kicho 1-3, Pyung Ahn 1-5, Naihanchi 1-3, bong Hyung 1-3, dan gum hyung, and I can't remember much after that. I didn't make it past 5th gup before I moved.


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## dosandojang (Mar 25, 2004)

TSD comes from Shorin Ryu, by way of ShotoKan. In the TSD/SBD that I practice, we use the Kichos (1-3)Pyong Ahns (1-5), and Bassai up to Cho/Il Dan. Kong Sang Koon is the highest Hyung I know...

Master Arce
Oh Dan
Dan Bon# 4061
DO SAN DOJANG


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## Moo D (May 7, 2004)

Here in the International TSD Federation (Moo Duk Kwan) under KJN Hwang kee, we seem to follow that of what was original in TSD. KJN Lee was a direct student of KJN Hwang himself for over 30 years.

The Hyungs are,

Kicho Hyungs 1 - 3
Pyang ahn Cho dan
Pyang ahn Ee dan
Pyang ahn Sam dan
Pyang ahn Sa dan
Pyang ahn Oh dan
Bassai Dai
Naihanchi Cho dan
Naihanchi Ee dan
Naihanchi Sam dan
Chil sung Il ro
Chil sung Ee ro
Chil sung Sam ro
Chil sung Sa ro
Chil sung Oh ro
Chil sung Yuk ro
Chil sung chil ro
Ship soo
Jin Do
Rohai
Kong San Koon
Sei Shan
Oh Sip sa bo
Wang shu
Jion

These are the ones that I have trained in or seen demonstrated by the Ko Dan Ja. I also have been taught 3 more traditional forms:

Yuk ro (Dae Moon) Cho dan
Bassai Cho
Paul Dan to (Knife form)

Tang Soo!!


- too much to learn, only one life -


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## dosandojang (May 7, 2004)

And for our SBD side, we do the Yuk Ros (6) and Chil Sungs (7).


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## Moo D (May 7, 2004)

dosandojang,

Do you know all 6 Yuk ro hyungs and all 7 Chil Sung Hyungs??

Regards,


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## dosandojang (May 8, 2004)

Yes, and as high as Kong Sang Koon Sho and Dai for TSD.


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## Moo D (May 8, 2004)

Dosandojang,

Are there any weapons forms that you know?? and what are the called?? 

Regards,


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## dosandojang (May 8, 2004)

Nope. I do not do much weapons. I mean, I did CQB and CQC in the Corps., but I do not train in traditional martial arts weapons. The most I ever did was a little HKD cane and TSD Bo training back in the day. But weapons is NOT my forte at all...Which ones do you do, if any?


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## Moo D (May 9, 2004)

dosandojang,

I have trained with the knife for our one step (both defense and offence) and have just started on the Bo.

I know the one knife hyung Paul Dan to, and that's it.

Regards,


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## dosandojang (May 9, 2004)

Good for you! Learn as much about weapons as you can! Ever thought about learning Okinawan or Japanese Kobudo? They have a lot of classical weapons like the sai, tonfa, bo, jo, kama, etc. Of the Korean weapon styles I have seen, like Kumdo, to me just really looks like Iaido and Kendo...


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## dosandojang (May 9, 2004)

Also, may I ask who you study under? That matters too, because not every KMA Master teaches weapons. I know mine do not (although they both have a Bo in their Dojangs, I never see them practice with it)....


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## Moo D (May 9, 2004)

I study under Master Stephen Tilley (5th Dan) and Master Tilley trains under Master Peter Chin (7Th Dan) who in turn studies under our Gm Lee, Kang Uk (9th Dan). Gm Lee one was DJN Hwangs most senior students and was graded to 9Th dan by DJN Hwang in 1987.

I guess that the wepaons that we have learn't, albeit very little, have been handed down by DJN Hwang.

We all study in the Uk Tang Soo (Soo Bahk) Do Federation, under KJN Lee.

Regards,


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## dosandojang (May 10, 2004)

Thanks for the short bio.  That seems like a great lineage you come from! Keep up the great work!

Tang Soo!!!
Soo Bahk!!!


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## Makalakumu (May 10, 2004)

As far as my understanding is concerned, KJN Hwang Kee did not train very much with weapons.  So MDK, or at least my experience with it, did not contain much weapon work.  The Grandmaster's son is different.  I have heard that he would like to introduce many different weapons into the federation.


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## Moo D (May 11, 2004)

Dosandojang,

Many thanks for your kind words, I will always train hard and learn as much as I can from my instructors, and gives as much as I can back to the art and society. 

Upnorthkyosa,

That's interesting regarding DJN Hwang, as far as I am aware GM Lee only trained under DJN Hwang and never under HC Hwang (due to his grade), I wonder where the origin of the Paul Danto knife form is???

Regards,


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## dosandojang (May 12, 2004)

Do you mean Pal or Pahl as in 8?


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## Moo D (May 12, 2004)

The only spelling I have for this hyung is Paul, but you know how Korean/Chinese gets translated phonetically, therefore it could be pal or pahl!!!

Regards,


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## dosandojang (May 14, 2004)

Then I think it is Pal (8). Bruce, Frank? Do you guys do a knife hyung?


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## Moo D (May 14, 2004)

I asked my Instructor, he is not sure and will ask KJN Lee. I let you know waht the outcome is.

regards,


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## dosandojang (May 15, 2004)

Thanks!


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## Llarion (Jun 18, 2004)

Moo D said:
			
		

> Here in the International TSD Federation (Moo Duk Kwan) under KJN Hwang kee, we seem to follow that of what was original in TSD. KJN Lee was a direct student of KJN Hwang himself for over 30 years.
> 
> The Hyungs are,
> 
> ...


 Wow, I had no idea there were so many! I am being taught the Kicho Hyungs and Pyang Ahns; I am 5th gup, but have progressed through competence on all five Pyang Hans and am just now starting Bassai. (MAN, do I need a phonetic pronunciation guide!!  ) 

Thanks for the list, this is a great thread!!


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## TSDMDK16485 (Feb 24, 2005)

does anyon know where i can get any chil sung and yuk-ro hyungs on video


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