# Patriotic acts or not?



## tshadowchaser (Jul 8, 2008)

We have a thread on what is patriotism  and it is a darn good one but I would like discuss acts that may have been seen as patriotism by some but not by others.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jul 8, 2008)

My mom likes to say that you have to be pretty arogant to run for president. Is that a starting point?


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jul 8, 2008)

It well could be.  Do we really feel that those that run for president are doing so out of patriotism or because they want the power and glory that such a position implies.
 
For myself I would rather see a person elected that did not run . A dark horse that was selected because those running did not get enough votes 
Some one who took the posistion because they where asked not because they had enough money and friends to run for the posistion


----------



## Nolerama (Jul 8, 2008)

Here are some that I think are controversially "patriotic":

Being a Republican.

Being a Democrat.

Being Religious.

Being non-religious.

Driving import vehicles.

Joining the military in a war for oil and a military foothold in the Middle East.

Not joining the military in a crusade against Terror.

Buying stock in Chinese industries.

Selling American company stocks to foreign investors.

Thinking No Child Left Behind will eventually work its kinks out.

Making fun of Bush.

Not making fun of Bush.



There are two sides to every coin. And each one can label the other "unpatriotic." It's our right to be able to voice our opinions.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jul 8, 2008)

some interesting points there.

I was thinking more on the line of those who fought on either side of the civil war.   or
Those that threw the tea into Boston harbor.
or how about John Wilkes Booth


----------



## DavidCC (Jul 8, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> It well could be. Do we really feel that those that run for president are doing so out of patriotism or because they want the power and glory that such a position implies.
> 
> For myself I would rather see a person elected that did not run . A dark horse that was selected because those running did not get enough votes
> Some one who took the posistion because they where asked not because they had enough money and friends to run for the posistion


 
I think the arrogance factor comes in as "I am the ONLY one who can help this Country"


----------



## MA-Caver (Jul 8, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> There are two sides to every coin. And each one can label the other "unpatriotic." _It's our right to be able to voice our opinions._


Now THAT'S patriotic! :uhyeah: 

My parents without fail take their (U.S.) flag out and fly it during important holidays without fail each year. 
I have an American flag sticker on my caving helmet and my coveralls (a sewn on patch) and on my Jeep in two places. I'm going to need a new headliner for the interior of my Jeep... am thinking of asking the guys who install them how much would it be to put in an American flag instead.


----------



## elder999 (Jul 8, 2008)

I'd say that the Hollywood Ten and others who defied the House Unamerican Activities Committee back in the 50's were pretty patriotic-even if they _were_ commies.....


----------



## Live True (Jul 8, 2008)

Here's some interesting thoughts from American history:

The soldiers who "tamed" the wild west and led the Indians on the Trail of Tears

The politicians, clergy, and soldiers that took Hawaiian language and culture out of the schools and eventually removed it's aristocracy...mostly by force

To some, these were patriotic acts for the improvement of America and the enobling of savages...to others it was a crime based on assumed supriority, racism, and misplaced zeal.  To most, the truth is somewhere in between.


----------



## Andrew Green (Jul 8, 2008)

It's a pretty fuzzy subject.

Is it intent we look at?  If a person is acting in what they believe to be the best interest of the country, even if they are wrong?

Is it outcome?  Had the British not been defeated would Washington be remembered as a traitor rather then a patriot?

Is it group think?  Acting in a way that the majority of the population believes is in its best interest is patriotic, regardless of whether or not it actually is.

Is it in symbols?  Flag pins on the lapel, flags on the car, on the house, etc.  A lot of people seem to think that is it... I find that worrysome.

Is it supporting the decissions made by your country, ie the current government.  They where elected by the people, to make decissions for the people, so the people should stand behind them as they choose the officials.  A lot of people seem to think that is it, at least when the government is the one they wanted...

Personally I think patriotism is just becoming another marketing word that really doesn't mean anything because it means everything.

Being a fuzzy issue is also something with a long history.  Patriotism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

or as defined by merriam webster (m-w.com):
"one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests"

By that definition I think rebeling against your country and its authorities would definately not be "Patriotism", and this is exactly what those early Americans did, calling themselves Patriots ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(American_Revolution) )


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jul 8, 2008)

I have to think that once the Declaration Of Independence was signed those who fought to keep this country free of British government would be looked at as patriots for this country and traitors to the British government.  Those signing the Declaration of Independence would certainly be viewed as traitors to the Crown but patriots to their new country.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jul 8, 2008)

> The soldiers who "tamed" the wild west and led the Indians on the Trail of Tears


 
This event must be looked at as one of the darkest deeds done in the name of this government, but yes  I imagine some of those soldiers might have been viewed  as doing a patriotic service but I can not view them in that manner.


----------



## Kreth (Jul 8, 2008)

Here I go being the cynic again... I find it funny how many people went flag crazy after 9/11, 'cause ya know the terrorists are afraid of all that red, white, and blue... 
It's kinda like the people who make their weekly social appearance in church after sinning all week. Or the politicians who push through hate-crime legislation come election year because it's apparently not enough to charge someone with murder if they kill someone because of race or sexual preference. We need to make it an extra-special murder charge.
Ain't empty symbolism grand? 

Disclaimer: The flag comment wasn't directed at you, Caver. Your post just reminded me of the flag frenzy post-9/11.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jul 8, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> I have an American flag sticker on my caving helmet and my coveralls (a sewn on patch) and on my Jeep in two places. I'm going to need a new headliner for the interior of my Jeep... am thinking of asking the guys who install them how much would it be to put in an American flag instead.


 
I was never in High School Civics (since it wasn't offered), but I was in JROTC, and our instructor did talk about something along those lines. He said that using the flag as a patch, button, sticker, or so on is actually desicrating it. I'm not saying anything, just letting you know that that is actually a controversial act. 

So folks, what do we have to say about Caver?

Anyways, I'm going to talk about Mr. Booth. I was in Academic Decathalon this last year, and studied the Civil War, what led up to it, and what followed it in more detail then any human being should, unless they think it's just that cool. Here's what I know because of it:
-Lincoln was a racist, who didn't really care about slaves (he actually said as much several times)
-Lincoln was (realisticly) one of the worst Presidents we've ever had (he suspended Habeus Corpus, and did many other no-no's that the President should not be doing)
-Booth was a nut job. (He thought he would go down as a hero, restart the War, and that this time the South would win)
-The only ones who will say (with all good consciousness) that the assissination of Lincoln was a noble/patriotic act is either a Confederate or an insane Libertarian. (not just a Libertarian, but an insane one)

I have spoken.


----------



## Nolerama (Jul 8, 2008)

CuongNhuka said:


> -The only ones who will say (with all good consciousness) that the assissination of Lincoln was a noble/patriotic act is either a Confederate or an insane *Libertarian*. (not just a Libertarian, but an insane one)



Could you explain the usage of Libertarian? Why not just "anarchist"? 

The whole "Lincoln was a racist" bit was, at least according to my understanding, a relatively "new" concept. It was researched and discussed in the late 1990's and threw in that era's existing (general) belief in race/race relations and combined that with the Emancipation Proclamation. Of course by our standards Lincoln was a racist. Most everybody was. He was a President, not a saint.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jul 8, 2008)

Libertarians want a:
- Completly Free Market (it is arguable that by outlawing slavery Lincoln was infringing in the Free Market); This is NOT intended to be insult to any Libertarians, I am merely stating that slavery _could_ be looked at as a commodity in a free market; I am also using the fact that many who argued against outlawing Slavery said that it would restrict there rights as property owners, which an element of a Libertarian Society.
- As little Government spending as possible (adjusted for inflation, Lincoln spent more then almost any President in US history)
- As little power in the Federal Level of Government as possible (which is exactly what Lincoln didn't do).
- As little power in the hands of the Executive Branch of Government (again, Lincoln did the opposite).

Because of this, Lincoln is actually one of the most hated men in US history acording to hardcore Libertarians. 
For more on this subject, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents
I beleive that the Libertarians have a link in there... somewere. It's interesting reading if nothing else.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jul 8, 2008)

elder999 said:


> I'd say that the Hollywood Ten and others who defied the House Unamerican Activities Committee back in the 50's were pretty patriotic-even if they _were_ commies.....



this is a contradiction in terms.

You CANNOT be communist and be a patriotic american since communism is the polar opposite of the american ideal.

Plus, they were working to overthrow the democratic, elected government and replace it with a communist one.

That doesnt fly with any definition of patriotism i have ever heard.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jul 8, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Plus, they were working to overthrow the democratic, elected government and replace it with a communist one.


 
Communism needs Democracy. That aside, I think you should start your own thread before this one spirals off, and the mod.s do it for you. Or delete your post for the possiblity of trolling. You do afterall know that there is atleast one Socialist on the board.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jul 8, 2008)

you advising me to delete a post?

good luck with that...

let's see:
patriotic act no one (more or less) would argue with? joining the military
patriotic act some could disagree with: running for office
patriotic act that most people are not gonna get: burning a flag.

mind you, i think flag burning is a cowardly act, borderline treasonous, but i can see how someone MIGHT think they were being patriotic in doing it.

sadly, i have a little too much "it's all relative" in my head to label most things as either one way or another.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jul 8, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> you advising me to delete a post?
> 
> good luck with that...


 
No, I'm saying that if you're going to make this a "is Communism Anti-American" debate, the mod.s might do it for you. As for the rest, I really don't care. The actions of a few idiots in a thought do NOT represent the wishes of the whole. I'm sure there's a logical falacy in there, cann't think of the name though.

Anyways, I'm done with this debate. Mod.s Feel free to do what you need to.


----------



## Sukerkin (Jul 8, 2008)

I think a little more care in word choices and points of view exchanges will get peoples ideas across much more easily.

A re-read of the masthead for this fora would not be amiss:

*The Study For the serious discussion of non-martial arts topics including world events, social and political issues, or other items not covered in the other forums. Topics in here should stay focused on their topic, with new threads created where topics split.*

Now any discourse of what an individual considers to be patriotic is going to be coloured, even soto voce, by what they consider *not* to be patriotic.  To hold those up as a mirror to reflect your views can help others to understand your point.  Just try to keep in mind that those self same views might be ones that others consider very differently.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 8, 2008)

CuongNhuka said:


> . That aside, I think you should start your own thread before this one spirals off,


 


CuongNhuka said:


> No, I'm saying that if you're going to make this a "is Communism Anti-American" debate, the mod.s might do it for you. As for the rest, I really don't care. The actions of a few idiots in a thought do NOT represent the wishes of the whole. I'm sure there's a logical falacy in there, cann't think of the name though.
> 
> Anyways, I'm done with this debate. Mod.s Feel free to do what you need to.


 
And it just spiraled out of control 


To try and get back to point I noticed one thing here that I am not sure they mean the same thing

The question is "patriotic act or not?"

Does this necessarily mean patriotic American as Twin fist mentioned?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 8, 2008)

Some today view the Boston Tea Party as a patriotic act. Others see it as the intentional theft and distruction of private property by an angry mob.  Some see the French Revolution as a patriotic act, others as an act of treason against the rightful ruler of a nation. Some today will say that pointing out the constitutional violations of the current US administration are the acts of patriots...others will call those same people traitors.

Patriotism depends on which side of the barricade you stand and die on.


----------



## Kacey (Jul 8, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Patriotism depends on which side of the barricade you stand and die on.


This is, I think, the key point.  One person's patriotism is another person's treason.


----------



## Andrew Green (Jul 8, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> this is a contradiction in terms.
> 
> You CANNOT be communist and be a patriotic american since communism is the polar opposite of the american ideal.
> 
> ...



Ideals change with time.  Was Lenin a patriot?  Seems to me his ideals where pretty far from the government that came before the revolution.  

The "Patriots" of the American revolution stood up and fought against the ideals of the government that was in place at the time.  Where a communist revolution to take place in the US and take over the capitalist model, its leaders would be considered patriots by those that followed them.

Also keep in mind that communism is a economic model, democracy is a government model.  The two are not mutually exclusive, communism vs capitalism would be a better comparison.

But both communism and capitalism can exist under either democratic governments or dictatorships, or anything else you can through in there.

And what is "The American Ideal"? It seems that it has undergone a lot of change over the years.


----------



## Empty Hands (Jul 8, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Patriotism depends on which side of the barricade you stand and die on.



Exactly.  So why then do we all put such stock in such an arbitrary concept?  Only because it is useful, not because it is meaningful.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 8, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> patriotic act no one (more or less) would argue with? joining the military


 
I suppose it might depend on just what the military is being used for at that period of time, and how that meshed with your own notions of how the government and the nation as a whole ought to be behaving.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jul 8, 2008)

thats the problem that cames with "it's all relative"

EH,
I disagree that the term isnt meaningful. But there will always be differences f opinion on term as nebulous as "patriotism"


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jul 8, 2008)

Patriotism is simply the love of one's country; therefore, a patriotic act would be a demonstration of that love. 

It has nothing to do with loyalties to political parties, religion, or any other self-serving agenda. I would have to say a patriotic act would be a selfless act out of love for one's country....

...I think a decent example would be those that joined the military following 9/11.


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Jul 8, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Exactly. So why then do we all put such stock in such an arbitrary concept? Only because it is useful, not because it is meaningful.


 

Well it's a bit like the old song goes: You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything. *shrug*.

http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/tippin-aaron/youve-got-to-stand-for-something-9063.html


----------



## Archangel M (Jul 8, 2008)

Its easier to stand for nothing. That way you can say you were never on the wrong side of anything. You were never on the right side of anything either.


----------



## Empty Hands (Jul 9, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.



So because you won't stand for an arbitrary concept, you by definition will stand for nothing?  That is a flawed argument.  Stand for something that isn't arbitrary.  Defense of self and others.  Preservation of liberty.  Something solid that doesn't flow around like mercury depending on who is trying to (mis)use it for their own purposes.


----------



## jkembry (Jul 9, 2008)

Patriot Acts....I think are dependent on the person and the intent and beliefs of the person.

I can say that being married to a Brit...her version and my version of Patriotism are different.

She did get a kick out of hearing NPR play "Rule Brittania" last Friday on the 4th of July.   I on the other hand wasn't bother much at all about hearing it.


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Jul 9, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> So because you won't stand for an arbitrary concept, you by definition will stand for nothing? That is a flawed argument. Stand for something that isn't arbitrary. Defense of self and others. Preservation of liberty. Something solid that doesn't flow around like mercury depending on who is trying to (mis)use it for their own purposes.


 

If it wasn't clear beforehand that things like those you mention were exactly what I was referring to--they were what I was referring to


----------



## Nolerama (Jul 9, 2008)

There's a lot of talk with patriotism being the love of one's country.

What about the "love" of one's people in that country?

Can one love their countrymen/women but hate their government?

I think it's possible, especially when taken into terms of radicals throughout history.

It's labeled one thing or another when the victor of those conflicts decides to comment on the situation.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 9, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> There's a lot of talk with patriotism being the love of one's country.
> 
> What about the "love" of one's people in that country?
> 
> ...


Yes, they can. But, see, the government only rules because we allow it to do so.  When it goes too far astray, it's possible to remove it, and put another one in it's place. That can be through election, or armed conflict, or things in between.   Those who take such actions, are patriots, as they are following the words of the Founding Fathers, and the DOI in continuing to have a government "of the people, for the people, by the people."


----------



## Gordon Nore (Jul 9, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> Patriotism is simply the love of one's country; therefore, a patriotic act would be a demonstration of that love...
> 
> ...I think a decent example would be those that joined the military following 9/11.



Serious question for discussion, not a challenge to anyone: Is a military draftee (eg. Vietnam or Korea) less patriotic than a current voluntary enlistee?


----------



## Big Don (Jul 9, 2008)

Gordon Nore said:


> Serious question for discussion, not a challenge to anyone: Is a military draftee (eg. Vietnam or Korea) less patriotic than a current voluntary enlistee?


Did they fight? did they serve? Did they run away to Canada or hide out here?


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jul 9, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Did they run away to Canada or hide out here?


 
Refusing to serve could be just as Patriotic as serving. The differnce comes from if the war is justified.

I don't know if being a draftee makes you less or equally patriotic as a volunter in the military. What I do know is that many of people in Special Forces type units in World War II were volunters, who did so to avoid draftees (Marine Raiders, and Army Paratroopers for example). I know that the Marine Corps refused to take draftees until we were mostly through the War in Vietnam. I also know that many of my freinds in the military (Marines, Army, Army Guard) have all said that they would whatever was needed to get the government to stop using draftees. Anywere from refusing to do there job, to going AWL, to threatening violence. I don't know if they're serious about volence (I kinda doubt it though), I'm also not saying I endorse it. I'm just conveying what they said, so as to allow for others to make more informed posts.


----------



## Empty Hands (Jul 10, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> If it wasn't clear beforehand that things like those you mention were exactly what I was referring to--they were what I was referring to



Gotcha!


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jul 11, 2008)

> Serious question for discussion, not a challenge to anyone: Is a military draftee (eg. Vietnam or Korea) less patriotic than a current voluntary enlistee?


 
CuongNhuka makes a valid point when he states 





> Refusing to serve could be just as Patriotic as serving.


Many during the Vietnam war went to jail rather than serve in a war they felt was unjustified.  I feel that those people where as patriotic as many who served.  Many who volunteered did so only to keep out of jail as judges would give them the choice of going to jail for some breakage of the law or serve that time in the military.


----------



## Big Don (Jul 11, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> I feel that those people where as patriotic as many who served.  Many who volunteered did so only to keep out of jail as judges would give them the choice of going to jail for some breakage of the law or serve that time in the military.


Was Jane Fonda patriotic when posing on an anti-aircraft gun for the purpose of enemy propaganda?


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jul 11, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Was Jane Fonda patriotic when posing on an anti-aircraft gun for the purpose of enemy propaganda?


 
There's a big differnce between peacefully protesting agianst a war you think is unjustified, and giving comfort to the enemy.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jul 11, 2008)

if you do not register and vote are you patriotic?

If you call yourself by any ethnic, racial, religious, etc. name are you patriotic or have you isolated yourself into a different category


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 11, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> if you do not register and vote are you patriotic?
> 
> If you call yourself by any ethnic, racial, religious, etc. name are you patriotic or have you isolated yourself into a different category


1- No. You're wasting what others fought and died for, and deserve the governmment you get, IMO.

2-Both.


----------



## Archangel M (Jul 21, 2008)

An interesting article on Patriotism:

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=311

A little "anti left" (but written by an admitted "Anarchist"...oddly interesting perspective)but with some very good points IMO.


----------



## Archangel M (Jul 21, 2008)

And the comments are even more interesting than the original article.


----------

