# Defense from inside your car



## MA-Caver (May 15, 2008)

Scenario... you walk through the parking lot to your car, unlock the door, get in, start up the engine and before you can put it in reverse/drive someone is knocking on your window. You roll the window down half way to hear what they have to say... moments later (reasons are moot at this point) the guy reaches in the open window and grabs your shirt/collar.... 

What to do? How to take care of this? 

I was in that situation last Sunday... only the guy didn't reach in the car. But he was being belligerent. Words were exchanged and he basically walked off. 
I had thought about what I would've needed to do if he had reached in the car to grab me, his body language, tone of voice and fervor in his eyes said he wanted to. 

It made me wonder about it and wonder at the various arts and their techniques (if any) in dealing with that scenario. 

My thoughts were: to allow him to grab me then break his grip and hold his hand while pulling his arm further into the car and pinning it to the steering wheel... then raise the window (it's electric on mine) and trap his arm up to his shoulder... open the car door hard, pushing him backwards/off balance, get out and close the door... hard... here two things could happen as I tried it out with a friend later (going very slowly and gently)... his arm came out and automatically went up... closing the car door would've crushed his arm/wrist in the door frame thus further incapacitaing him or he would've kept his arm down, even rotating it in an attempt to hit the window button... or even still... risk severely lacerating himself by pulling his arm out and/or breaking the window... 
Had his arm been trapped in the door then a few simple techs would've been sufficient to render him out of the game; (hard) knee to the groin and to the solar-plexus. 

What would've you done? What techniques does your art (please name) teach in this situation?


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## tellner (May 15, 2008)

Hold onto him and put it into reverse. Then start driving. Let him out when it's not fun anymore.
Pull him partway in and do bad things to him.
Roll up the window and do bad things to whatever's inside.
Use the frame and window to help execute an arm bar. Combined with #1 it becomes a low-calorie arm break.


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## mrhnau (May 15, 2008)

tellner said:


> Hold onto him and put it into reverse. Then start driving. Let him out when it's not fun anymore.
> Pull him partway in and do bad things to him.
> Roll up the window and do bad things to whatever's inside.
> Use the frame and window to help execute an arm bar. Combined with #1 it becomes a low-calorie arm break.


Don't forget the high-calorie arm munching


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## Deaf Smith (May 15, 2008)

Krav Maga has some very good techniques for this. Oviously just about all are hand techniques (something alot of TKD feet specialists should think about, and I say that being a TKD foot specialist!)

Deaf


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## MahaKaal (May 15, 2008)

In any offensive situation, it is important to understand what your attacker is going to do, if you pre-empt an attack too early, it is possible that your technique will fail.  In this case, the original poster made the best decision by not reacting.

If I was in that situation, my first response would be to shift in my seat so that I am facing him more, rather then at a 90 degree angle to him, it would be possible to shift back in the seat to make more distance if required.  You could also slide the chair back casually, increasing the angle and distance that it would take for him to get a good grab.

If he does try to grab through an open window, let his hand come in and hold you, apply pressure on his wrist with your forearm over the top to lock his arm to your chest, use your spare hand to attack the limb, or strike the head/throat/armpit/elbow, if he pulls back apply a wrist lock.

There are many scenarios that could play out, if you open up the window too little, it shows fear and there would be only two possibilities, the person smashes the window - leading to glass flying in your face, or he tries to open the door.

If he tries to smash the window, lean away onto the passenger seat, or passengers lap and try to cover your face if possible.  If hes smashed the window, his next step would be to reach in.  For anyone to attack you, they must give you an opening and also a limb, so first thing you do is pull in him or attack his limb, snap his finger and lay a few strikes on him.  The arm is the best to strike as you have many points to hit, finger breaks, wrist lock, strikes to underarm, pinches on underarm, the more you pull him in the closer his head will be.  As your in a position of dominance, his only defence would be to fight through a window with broken glass around it, as his head comes closer throw some strikes to it, elbows, or head grabs which lead to twisting of the neck.

If he tries to open the door, let him, use the momentum of the door and push against it, making him lose his balance, burst out the car, use the door as a sheild for a split second and try to get around, or get back in and drive away.

The key is to be dominant in that position, give as little verbal communication as possible and try to end the conversation quickly.

That would be an unarmed way, in reality, id show him my Pesh Kabz


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## kwaichang (May 15, 2008)

1.  don't roll down the window.
2.  step on the gas.


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## FieldDiscipline (May 15, 2008)

tellner said:


> Use the frame and window to help execute an arm bar. Combined with #1 it becomes a low-calorie arm break.



My first thoughts, or a wrist lock.  Both combined with #1.


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## tellner (May 15, 2008)

mrhnau said:


> Don't forget the high-calorie arm munching



Always remember to eat your enemies in secret.


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## Bodhisattva (May 15, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Scenario... you walk through the parking lot to your car, unlock the door, get in, start up the engine and before you can put it in reverse/drive someone is knocking on your window. You roll the window down half way to hear what they have to say... moments later (reasons are moot at this point) the guy reaches in the open window and grabs your shirt/collar....
> 
> What to do? How to take care of this?
> 
> ...


 
Grab his wrist with both hands and pull with both arms

Turn feet toward the door

Push with both feet on inside of door while holding his forearm with both hands tightly and straightening my spine -  until he is bent over and partially pulled into my car.

Stomp and kick head while holding forearm tightly with both hands.

--

Or:

Put car in reverse, hit gas hard, laugh as he is pulled onto his face because he didn't let go of me.

--

Or:

Reach into truck floor board, grab any of several tools there (large wrench, hammer, screw driver)


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## CoryKS (May 15, 2008)

I only roll the window down about an inch or so, if at all.  If a stranger is talking to me while I'm in the car, I'm not terribly interested in what he's going to say unless he's also pointing to the car and backing away.


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## MA-Caver (May 15, 2008)

CoryKS said:


> I only roll the window down about an inch or so, if at all.  If a stranger is talking to me while I'm in the car, I'm not terribly interested in what he's going to say unless he's also pointing to the car and backing away.



Well being as hard of hearing as I am an inch of open window is still going to make the guy sound muffled so that's why I rolled it half way down so there'd be no misunderstanding on MY part. Plus I'm still under the impression that I didn't do anything wrong... at least until he opened his mouth and expressed his erroneous perceived deficit. Besides looking the guy once over, I wasn't scared and he couldn't make me scared even if he tried.


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## KenpoTex (May 15, 2008)

I think people are overcomplicating this (too many "use a wrist lock" or whatever)...you're in a 3,000 lb. weapon, just drive, he won't hold on for long.

If for some reason I was unable to simply drive away, I'd try to control his arm while reaching either for the fixed blade on the console, or the pistol on my hip...he's not going to like what happens after that. (before anyone says anything, in my state, the "castle doctrine" extends to your vehicle.)


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## MA-Caver (May 15, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> you're in a 3,000 lb. weapon...just drive, he won't hold on for long.
> 
> If for some reason I was unable to simply drive away, I'd try to control his arm while reaching either for the fixed blade on the console, or the pistol on my hip...he's not going to like what happens after that. (before anyone says anything, in my state, the "castle doctrine" extends to your vehicle.)



Tight parking lot, my parents car and it's totally without weaponry, except of course... my empty hands and my brain.


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## joeygil (May 15, 2008)

I still think roll up the window, and pull out of the parking space.  It can't be so tight you can't pull out.

The main part about rolling up the window is, it sandwiches their arm, so you don't get pulled by them.  

Alternatively, roll up the window (power windows hopefully), and grab the hand and break a finger back.  I think it's easier and more practical than a wrist lock, as that often requires a bit more manuverabiliity.


You can also bite (and start on that high calorie snack early).


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## KenpoTex (May 15, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Tight parking lot, my parents car and it's totally without weaponry, except of course... my empty hands and my brain.


 
in that case, maybe grab his arm and yank it farther into the car to control it, also giving you access to his head/face.  Beat him with hammerfists, gouge his eyes, or attack the throat until he decides he doesn't want to play anymore.

On a side note, this is why I always try to park so that I can move my car easily.  I'll either pull through the spaces or back in so that when I leave I can just drive out.


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## Deaf Smith (May 15, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Scenario... you walk through the parking lot to your car, unlock the door, get in, start up the engine and before you can put it in reverse/drive someone is knocking on your window. You roll the window down half way to hear what they have to say... moments later (reasons are moot at this point) the guy reaches in the open window and grabs your shirt/collar....


 
Pull my Glock .40, press against attackers chest, and pull trigger. Repeat as needed till he lets go.

I was trained in the "Modern Technique", and maybe Jeff Cooper was the first to codify a system of gun handling, and thus an 'art'.

Deaf


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## Empty Hands (May 15, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> Pull my Glock .40, press against attackers chest, and pull trigger. Repeat as needed till he lets go.



For someone grabbing your shirt with empty hands while you are seated in a 3000 lb weapon?  Enjoy prison.



Deaf Smith said:


> I was trained in the "Modern Technique", and maybe Jeff Cooper was the first to codify a system of gun handling, and thus an 'art'.



Did Mr. Cooper also cover _when _deadly force is permissible, not just how?


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## Deaf Smith (May 15, 2008)

Empty Hands,

I teach Concealed Handgun License classes in the state of Texas. I know well our laws. Carjacking, and someone grabbing you through the window would be considered an attempted carjacking, is subject to deadly force.

9.32.  DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON

(A)  unlawfully and with force entered, or was 
attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied 
habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment.

And you do NOT have to retreat (unlike some states laws.)

Deaf


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## MJS (May 15, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Scenario... you walk through the parking lot to your car, unlock the door, get in, start up the engine and before you can put it in reverse/drive someone is knocking on your window. You roll the window down half way to hear what they have to say... moments later (reasons are moot at this point) the guy reaches in the open window and grabs your shirt/collar....
> 
> What to do? How to take care of this?
> 
> ...


 
Nice thread! 

The initial situation could probably be avoided if the window isn't rolled down all or half way.  A few inches is best.  But in this case, I'd give the following options:

A) If at all possible, put the car into gear and start driving.  They're either going to a) be dragged along with the car or b) let go.  

B) Pin the hand and strike to the face.  

C) You could attempt to open the car door, striking them with it.  Downside of this is if they're that close to the door, their body may prevent it from opening.

I wouldn't bother attempting to roll up the window, as they could most likely push down on it, breaking the mechanism, preventing it from going up.


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## Kacey (May 15, 2008)

1 - Roll the window up.  I, myself, wouldn't open the door; I think I have a greater advantage with the person's arm stuck in the window than I do if I open the door.

2 - Start driving, in whichever direction is available.  Tight space or not, there's generally room to get out.  It's polite of you to be concerned about your parents' car... but in similar circumstances, my parents would prefer the car to be damaged to me being damaged; cars can be fixed, but people have to heal!

3 - Depending on the circumstances, this may happen before 2; honk the horn in a mixture of long and short bursts.  This will bring attention to you - which, if the person intends some negative action, will be exactly what s/he doesn't want.  And it may just startle the person into pulling his/her hand out as well.


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## terryl965 (May 15, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> Empty Hands,
> 
> I teach Concealed Handgun License classes in the state of Texas. I know well our laws. Carjacking, and someone grabbing you through the window would be considered an attempted carjacking, is subject to deadly force.
> 
> ...


 
I am with Deaf here Texas has great laws when it comes to certain things


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 16, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> I think people are overcomplicating this (too many "use a wrist lock" or whatever)...you're in a 3,000 lb. weapon, just drive, he won't hold on for long.
> 
> If for some reason I was unable to simply drive away, I'd try to control his arm while reaching either for the fixed blade on the console, or the pistol on my hip...he's not going to like what happens after that. (before anyone says anything, in my state, the "castle doctrine" extends to your vehicle.)


 
*Bingo.* *Use the vehicle as a tool if necessary*.

However, be aware of the area before hand and who is in it so that it will be very hard for someone to approach.  Myself, personally I would only slightly crack the window and that would be after the car was already turned on and prepared for escape.  I would also have a tool or two inside the car and ready to use if necessary.


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## shesulsa (May 16, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> I think people are overcomplicating this (too many "use a wrist lock" or whatever)...you're in a 3,000 lb. weapon, just drive, he won't hold on for long.


 artyon:


> If for some reason I was unable to simply drive away, I'd try to control his arm while reaching either for the fixed blade on the console, or the pistol on my hip...he's not going to like what happens after that. (before anyone says anything, in my state, the "castle doctrine" extends to your vehicle.)


I keep ... ah ... *something* right next to me and ready to draw for just such an occasion.  


kenpotex said:


> in that case, maybe grab his arm and yank it farther into the car to control it, also giving you access to his head/face.  Beat him with hammerfists, gouge his eyes, or attack the throat until he decides he doesn't want to play anymore.
> 
> * On a side note, this is why I always try to park so that I can move my car easily.  I'll either pull through the spaces or back in so that when I leave I can just drive out.*


Awareness, education and evasive action - three of the four cornerstones to self-defense.  I include pre-planning in the "evasive action" category. Good Girl and Boy scouts will know that you should ALWAYS park ***-in.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Bingo.* *Use the vehicle as a tool if necessary*.
> 
> However, be aware of the area before hand and who is in it so that it will be very hard for someone to approach.  Myself, personally I would only slightly crack the window and that would be after the car was already turned on and prepared for escape.  I would also have a tool or two inside the car and ready to use if necessary.


_*Exactly*_.  I keep the AC in my car in good repair and fully charged to thwart the opportunists who like to jump cars.  The driver's window fully open doesn't happen without careful monitoring on my part.


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## CoryKS (May 16, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Well being as hard of hearing as I am an inch of open window is still going to make the guy sound muffled so that's why I rolled it half way down so there'd be no misunderstanding on MY part. Plus I'm still under the impression that I didn't do anything wrong... at least until he opened his mouth and expressed his erroneous perceived deficit. Besides looking the guy once over, I wasn't scared and he couldn't make me scared even if he tried.


 
I'm pretty hard of hearing too.  My point was that I really don't care what the guy is telling me.  Never seen him before and I'm on my way somewhere, so the odds are slim that this conversation is relevant to my interests.  I might give him some small opportunity to say what he wants to say, but he needs to say it fast and say it loud if he wants me to hear it.


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## Hawke (May 16, 2008)

Think "goof" plus one.  He may or may not have a goof buddy or two or three.

1. Drive away if situation allows.
2. If his hands are already inside your vehicle break a finger.

If I have to I will put the car in drive and pull away to get out of the dangerous situation and not obey traffic laws to protect myself and a loved one.

Some places in Los Angeles you will get a ticket if you park your car rear end first (usually shopping malls).

When I volunteered with the Red Cross we were trained to point our vehicles for a quick retreat when fighting forest fires.

YouTube has a clip called "Why we need a gun."  Due to the heavy use of profanity I am hesitate to put a link here.


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## tellner (May 16, 2008)

there's a bunch of videos on youtube that could be the one you're talking about. You don't have to embed the clip, but it would be helpful if you could post a link.


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## Hawke (May 17, 2008)

Send me a PM and I'll send you the link.

The clip is a crazy guy that picks up an impact weapon and starts smashing a car stuck in traffic.  The car just drives back and forth while the guy keeps smashing the window, headlights, the side and back of the car.


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## KenpoTex (May 18, 2008)

Hawke said:


> Send me a PM and I'll send you the link.
> 
> The clip is a crazy guy that picks up an impact weapon and starts smashing a car stuck in traffic. The car just drives back and forth while the guy keeps smashing the window, headlights, the side and back of the car.


 
if you're talking about the black guy beating the car with a tire-iron (what it looked like to me) on the street corner in Vegas, he needed to either be shot or run-over.


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## Mr G (May 18, 2008)

One of my early memories is when I was riding with my Aunt when we were boxed in by traffic, waiting for a light or something.  Some guy walked up, opened my door, and leaned in to grab my Aunt's purse.  I leaned over and covered he purse with my body (I don't know why, I was a little kid).  She leaned on the horn yelled at him and started driving up on the curb.  He backed off and the traffic started moving so we got 'otta there.

I have no idea what year this was, but she was driving an orange Vega.


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## hongkongfooey (May 18, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I am with Deaf here Texas has great laws when it comes to certain things


 
That's because Texas isn't overrun with liberal pansy men, who believe that self defense is uncivilized, like we have here in the People's Republik of Maryland. In the PRM, the victim goes to jail, and the aggressor gets counseling and a free lawyer to file suit against the real victim.


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## hongkongfooey (May 18, 2008)

Use the Trunk Monkey. I love these commercials.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/31859/trunk_monkey/


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## Big Don (May 18, 2008)

My first inclination would be to steer the car into the attacker. Aside from that, and not carrying a gun, I'd have to, as others noted, pin/trap the hand/arm and poke, gouge, etc his eyes while hoping he'll expose his throat enough to make a spearhand strike or ½ fist punch fit.
I dunno, I hadn't really thought about it.


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## Rich Parsons (May 18, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Scenario... you walk through the parking lot to your car, unlock the door, get in, start up the engine and before you can put it in reverse/drive someone is knocking on your window. You roll the window down half way to hear what they have to say... moments later (reasons are moot at this point) the guy reaches in the open window and grabs your shirt/collar....
> 
> What to do? How to take care of this?
> 
> ...



Given what you said where the mistakes of not making eye contact so they knew you were not a prey animal, and/or also missing them (* It happens to everyone *), and you are in the situation with the window open and an aggressive person on the outside.

I know others have said similar things, but here is what I would do. 

1) I would put the car in gear, and move the vehicle. 

2) If the grab was hurting or could cause me damage, I would try to remove that threat and then counter with the vehicle. 


I have been in situations where I have seen it coming and got out of the car to address the issue. I have been in situation where before they could approach the vehicle was in gear in moving, even if it was the wrong way on a one way street or expressway entrance or exit.


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## Deaf Smith (May 18, 2008)

hongkongfooey said:


> That's because Texas isn't overrun with liberal pansy men, who believe that self defense is uncivilized, like we have here in the People's Republik of Maryland. In the PRM, the victim goes to jail, and the aggressor gets counseling and a free lawyer to file suit against the real victim.


 
Ergo... come to Texas (or Floriada for that matter.)

Deaf


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## tellner (May 18, 2008)

hongkongfooey said:


> That's because Texas isn't overrun with liberal pansy men, who believe that self defense is uncivilized, like we have here in the People's Republik of Maryland. In the PRM, the victim goes to jail, and the aggressor gets counseling and a free lawyer to file suit against the real victim.



Oh, I dunno. Oregon is quite a liberal State. And we have better CCW laws than Texas. For some weird reason you guys can't carry in churches. And I seem to recall laws about having to register the particular weapon you want to carry and to pay a fee and requalify with each one. No such ******** out here or in latte-sipping Washington. 

The deepest pit of depravity in the State, Portland, is notable for its grand juries. They are some of the most likely to tell the DA to take a hike when he seeks indictments in home or multiple attacker defense cases.


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## Bodhisattva (May 18, 2008)

tellner said:


> Oh, I dunno. Oregon is quite a liberal State. And we have better CCW laws than Texas. For some weird reason you guys can't carry in churches. And I seem to recall laws about having to register the particular weapon you want to carry and to pay a fee and requalify with each one. No such ******** out here or in latte-sipping Washington.
> 
> The deepest pit of depravity in the State, Portland, is notable for its grand juries. They are some of the most likely to tell the DA to take a hike when he seeks indictments in home or multiple attacker defense cases.



Actually, Oregon is extremely CONSERVATIVE, but PORTLAND is very liberal.


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## tellner (May 18, 2008)

Not even close. 

The I-5 corridor, home of most of the population, is quite liberal. Eastern and parts of Southern Oregon are generally quite conservative. But we're no longer a swing state in national elections. We're firmly in the "blue" category.


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## shesulsa (May 18, 2008)

tellner said:


> Not even close.
> 
> The I-5 corridor, home of most of the population, is quite liberal. Eastern and parts of Southern Oregon are generally quite conservative. But we're no longer a swing state in national elections. We're firmly in the "blue" category.


Props.


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## MA-Caver (May 18, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> Given what you said where the mistakes of not making eye contact so they knew you were not a prey animal, and/or also missing them (* It happens to everyone *), and you are in the situation with the window open and an aggressive person on the outside.
> 
> I know others have said similar things, but here is what I would do.
> 
> ...



Well Rich, with the fact that I felt that I had nothing to worry about I didn't break eye contact with him... more so held it with the *ahem* accusations that he was making/repeating and thus causing my own blood-pressure to rise and blood to boil ... well essentially ticking me off something fierce. So in that circumstances I don't break eye contact nor drift my sight from his whole body movements. I was ready for him to reach into the car. 

I doubt that I would've moved the car at all. After all it is my parents', had it been my jeep... heh, that's different now isn't it? But control, and plotting this or that based on what he does and what he could do. 
I was planning to mess him up. Least ways I get charged with assault and not attempted manslaughter. Of course I'd argue self-defense all the way. After all his bodily evidence would've been in the car once he reached in and I did my thing. Forensics would've shown that. 

Besides what I told him caused him to back off and walk away. As Stewie is wont to say... Victory is mine!


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## Brian King (May 18, 2008)

There is a Systema DVD out (there is also a second older different instructional video that is also very good but no longer in production) that covers many of the situations discussed in this thread as well as some of the psychological issues faced with many tips on how to move around inside and outside of your vehicle. It is a great video for those that spend a lot of time in their vehicles, professionals and those that wonder what if while they are in or around vehicles.
I highly recommend it. 

This link on Vladimirs web site has a short video clip of the DVD

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=111

Regards
Brian King


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## MA-Caver (May 18, 2008)

Brian said:


> There is a Systema DVD out (there is also a second older different instructional video that is also very good but no longer in production) that covers many of the situations discussed in this thread as well as some of the psychological issues faced with many tips on how to move around inside and outside of your vehicle. It is a great video for those that spend a lot of time in their vehicles, professionals and those that wonder what if while they are in or around vehicles.
> I highly recommend it.
> 
> This link on Vladimirs web site has a short video clip of the DVD
> ...


Now that... looks real interesting!


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## KenpoTex (May 19, 2008)

tellner said:


> Oh, I dunno. Oregon is quite a liberal State. And we have better CCW laws than Texas. For some weird reason you guys can't carry in churches. And I seem to recall laws about having to register the particular weapon you want to carry and to pay a fee and requalify with each one. No such ******** out here or in latte-sipping Washington.
> 
> The deepest pit of depravity in the State, Portland, is notable for its grand juries. They are some of the most likely to tell the DA to take a hike when he seeks indictments in home or multiple attacker defense cases.


 
It's not that bad...  

-The only time you can't carry in churches is if they're posted (and the sign must be a certain size and have specific language)
-Don't believe you have to "register" anything (no serial numbers on the permit or anything like that).
-the only qualification issue is regarding revolver vs. semi-auto.  If you qualify with a revolver, that's all you can carry.  If you qualify with a semi-auto, you can carry either.

(at least that's the way it was when I lived there.  Don't think it's changed).


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