# whats black and white and green all over



## bigfootsquatch (May 24, 2007)

a yin yang in the hands of americans


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## Franzfri (May 28, 2007)

Whatever is that supposed to mean...Green = Money?
Anyway since this is a cryptic thread I have a cryptic question.   2 years ago brave chubby little old me (under 5 ft., 150 lbs., 61 years old at the time, barely 2 years of lessons) participated in my 1st competition.  One of the judges came over to me later and asked if I'de competed before and seemed to imply that I had and shouldn't be in beginners.  Huh? My Sifu complained to the other officials and they aren't letting him judge anymore.  Why pick on me?  They guy may have seen me the previous year when I was watching the competition.

I just came back from the Competition in Orlando at the Gaylord Palms Hotel.  I competed in Intermediate Tai Chi and over 50 Tai Chi Weapons where they let me compete as a beginner (thank G-d).  A judge, not one that was judging my group...in the words of a fellow studen "Zeroed in on me and made a beeline to our area, where he watched me like a hawk."  She hovered behind me later during his critique and exhibit of his expertese, fearful that he would upset me.  Since I didn't have a high opinion of my performance, I wasn't too upset.  He asked who thaught me..I told him.  I also explained that I'd only been doing the form for 6 months.  He then started to name postured and tell me that my timing was off and that I shouldn't hesitate etc.  I explained that we haven' named the postures and that I hesitated because I forgot what I was doing.  Actually 6 months ago I couldn't do the roosters or the kicks in the form at all.  Now I can do them, and my sifu tells me not to try to stay up too long on the kicks and roostes.

*Why do these men pick on me????????*  My sifu says the man wanted me to start studying with him.  When he heard who my sifu is he didn't say anything.  He said the broadsword form I did was rare...Sifu says it isn't rare.  I mentioned that I had taken a workshop with Grandmanstr David Chin (a wonderful kind man) and I received a lecture on lineage.  My sifu told us that the man had a school nearby in Florida and had only signed up 3 days earlier to judge and that he hadn't brought any students with im...supposedly the other officials aren't too happy with him.

I don't know if I should be flattered or annoyed.  I was holding a sword.  Do you think he deserved to be wacked for picking on grandmas?  The gal who was standing by to defend me is the same age as my daughter and she's 40


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## Xue Sheng (May 28, 2007)

First



bigfootsquatch said:


> a yin yang in the hands of americans



Huh????

Second



franzfr said:


> Whatever is that supposed to mean...Green = Money?
> Anyway since this is a cryptic thread I have a cryptic question. 2 years ago brave chubby little old me (under 5 ft., 150 lbs., 61 years old at the time, barely 2 years of lessons) participated in my 1st competition. One of the judges came over to me later and asked if I'de competed before and seemed to imply that I had and shouldn't be in beginners. Huh? My Sifu complained to the other officials and they aren't letting him judge anymore. Why pick on me? They guy may have seen me the previous year when I was watching the competition.
> 
> I just came back from the Competition in Orlando at the Gaylord Palms Hotel. I competed in Intermediate Tai Chi and over 50 Tai Chi Weapons where they let me compete as a beginner (thank G-d). A judge, not one that was judging my group...in the words of a fellow studen "Zeroed in on me and made a beeline to our area, where he watched me like a hawk." She hovered behind me later during his critique and exhibit of his expertese, fearful that he would upset me. Since I didn't have a high opinion of my performance, I wasn't too upset. He asked who thaught me..I told him. I also explained that I'd only been doing the form for 6 months. He then started to name postured and tell me that my timing was off and that I shouldn't hesitate etc. I explained that we haven' named the postures and that I hesitated because I forgot what I was doing. Actually 6 months ago I couldn't do the roosters or the kicks in the form at all. Now I can do them, and my sifu tells me not to try to stay up too long on the kicks and roostes.
> ...



HUH???

First I take it we are talking Quang Ping Yang Tai Chi, am I right?

Second, my sifu (second sifu) has little use for competitions and less use for competition judges because as far as he is concerned they do not know or understand Taiji; dont let it get to you. Ask yourself why you train taiji, if it is for competition then maybe look into it deeper (but I am guessing it is because my sifu is right 0 youre just better at it than they are) if it is not for competition then dont worry about it.

My first sifu use to actually judge competitions and there was a Wu style person there and after the person did there form my first sifu was rather impressed but all of the other judges were saying it was no good because it moved up and down to much. My first sifu told then that was Wu style and the other judges continued to complain, my first sifu then said to them, none of you have ever seen Wu style before have you they all admitted they hadnt and they all, except my first sifu, gave the guy a low score.


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## Franzfri (May 29, 2007)

Thank you for your input.  You are right on.  I think it would be cute for a meek little old lady like me to get a gold medal even if it was a little regional competition.  Other than that,  I compete to help keep the Guang Ping in the competitions and for the experience.  We only regret what we have not done.  My sifu has pointed out that the judges do not know our forms.  They are only looking for smoothness of performance.  I know they are also looking at the difficulty of the moves.  Some people are absolutely amazing...so flexible.  As an older person I have to look at the competitions as a recital where I compete only against myself.  Each year *my* performance and ability should be better and more skilled than the year before.  The other competitors don't matter.  My sifu does judge and do workshops at these competitions.  I realy enjoyed the 2 workshops that I took.  One was with Master David Chin of North Carolina.  The other was with a woman who combined Tai Chi, Chi Gong and Chinese Physical Rehabilitation into a 28 movement form called Wild Crane... I think that her form is an excellent warmup to build strength and flexibility.  Some of the movements seem suited to my needs.  Oh yes my sifu does have warmup exercised that build strength, flexibility and balance.  But this lady has exercises that seem better for my particular needs.  Actually my sifu is interested in seeing the CD I purchased.


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## SifuPhil (May 29, 2007)

As one who has pretty much forsaken the world of competitions, and with all due respect to Lady Franzfr, I often wonder why so many players quote the party line of "competing against ourselves", then go off to a tournament.

I understand if you say you're there to observe and learn; I understand if you say you want to compare your form, etc. with others in your style; I even understand if you say you like the charged atmosphere.

But if you're truly competing with yourself, you need no-one other than your Sifu, right? And some day, you might not even need _them_...

Taking to heart any comments made by judges only leads to heartache. With rare exceptions the modern-day tournament scene is a shambles, not the least of which reasons is the one Xue Sheng outlined - often the judges know less than you!


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## oxy (May 30, 2007)

SifuPhil said:


> But if you're truly competing with yourself, you need no-one other than your Sifu, right? And some day, you might not even need _them_...
> 
> Taking to heart any comments made by judges only leads to heartache.



Well, who's to say what it is to "truly compete with yourself"?

Surely, the next point you make (about critical judges) is one such way of "competing with yourself", right?

Staying composed under pressure certainly seems something that you can only get with tournaments. You might not win the tournament (due to circumstances most probably not about the correctness of the form), but were able to stay composed no matter what came at you, surely you've competed against yourself successfully, right?

Surely, if "truly competing with yourself" only requires a Sifu: isn't it kind of the individualist equivalent of those "secret" shenanigans that don't show themselves under the excuse of "keeping things secret/pure"?

It's one big "no true scotsman" fallacy as far as I can tell.


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## oxy (May 30, 2007)

As for the answer to the riddle that was the "topic" of this thread:

I can absolutely guarantee that there are more Chinese making money off "yin yang" than there are anywhere else in the world (if I am correct in assuming that the symbol was used as a metaphor). I can make this guarantee simply due to the sheer number of Chinese there are in the world.

Some of these are scams right from the start. But a good lot of them actually works the way a placebo works and are mistaken as legitimate even by the most masterful of masters (whatever the hell that means). They survive not because they work but simply because they have not been weeded out yet.


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## bigfootsquatch (May 30, 2007)

so very true that chinese are making money off of tai chi, I guess I should have put "tai chi masters" instead of americans, but we americans tend to put tai chi in sorts of places, from slapping it on a karate school, to health club, to calling it the dance of health....it's starting to get on my nerves!


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## Xue Sheng (May 30, 2007)

bigfootsquatch said:


> so very true that chinese are making money off of tai chi, I guess I should have put "tai chi masters" instead of americans, but we americans tend to put tai chi in sorts of places, from slapping it on a karate school, to health club, to calling it the dance of health....it's starting to get on my nerves!


 
I have seen a lot of people talking about taiji as a martial art or combat taiji that is likely rather effective but it is not taiji. They tend not to understand what taiji is and do not want to take the time needed to understand it, so they slap Karate apps on it and call it taiji.

Many Taiji families are now making a lot of money on their family style, some are teaching good stuff others are not, and I will not get into my feelings on who is doing what here it will only cause trouble.

But we give them a whole lot of reasons to not take us seriously and to look at the US as a place to make money. Most students really do not want to learn taiji they want to be able to say I studies with master A or trained with Sifu B and then run off a teach taiji based on this credential and 1 or 2 classes and a WHOLE lot of people fall for it.


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## SifuPhil (May 31, 2007)

oxy said:


> Well, who's to say what it is to "truly compete with yourself"?


I would think that phrase is self-explanatory...Granted you could twist it a bit and state that your version of competing with yourself includes competing with others, but I maintain that the simplest, truest explanation of that phrase would mean testing yourself THROUGH yourself, without comparisons or contrasts to others.



> Surely, the next point you make (about critical judges) is one such way of "competing with yourself", right?


??? Not sure I understand the reference.



> Staying composed under pressure certainly seems something that you can only get with tournaments. You might not win the tournament (due to circumstances most probably not about the correctness of the form), but were able to stay composed no matter what came at you, surely you've competed against yourself successfully, right?


That's certainly one way, but you don't need a tournament in order to pressure-test your abilities. In fact, the unrealistic nature of tournaments mitigates against it being an effective training venue.



> Surely, if "truly competing with yourself" only requires a Sifu: isn't it kind of the individualist equivalent of those "secret" shenanigans that don't show themselves under the excuse of "keeping things secret/pure"?


Sorry, but once again I don't see the connection. The only reason I said you need a Sifu, through a certain period of time at least, is to gain knowledge in the most effective way. After you gain that knowledge you no longer need that Sifu. It has nothing to do with conspiracy theories 



> It's one big "no true scotsman" fallacy as far as I can tell.


I never heard that one - sounds intriguing...


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## Xue Sheng (May 31, 2007)

oxy said:


> Staying composed under pressure certainly seems something that you can only get with tournaments. You might not win the tournament (due to circumstances most probably not about the correctness of the form), but were able to stay composed no matter what came at you, surely you've competed against yourself successfully, right?


 
Or from day to day life or from having to do your form under the watchful eye of your Sifu or actually having to use the stuff in a real situation. 

There are a lot of ways of staying composed under pressure that have absolutely nothing to do with tournaments. Tournament judges in my opinion are basically clueless about taiji. They do not know most of the forms they are judging nor do the truly understand the forms they do and or, sadly, teach. 

If you want composure under pressure do your form by yourself in front of your Sifu who is from China, has done taiji for over 40 years and was a long time student of an inside student of Yang Chengfu. NOW you got pressure.


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## oxy (May 31, 2007)

SifuPhil said:


> I would think that phrase is self-explanatory...Granted you could twist it a bit and state that your version of competing with yourself includes competing with others, but I maintain that the simplest, truest explanation of that phrase would mean testing yourself THROUGH yourself, without comparisons or contrasts to others.



I think you miss the point.

franzfr had never talked about going to tournaments just to compete with others. In fact, going over her post again, nowhere was it mentioned that she was comparing or contrasting with others. There was a specific part of her post which specifically states that the other competitors no longer matter.

In light of that, my "version", as you call it, of "competing with yourself" does not mention comparing with others either.

I think you're debating your own preconceived notion rather than what was being said.

As a sidenote, in my experience, things that are "self-explanatory" are not. Things that seem "self-explanatory" seem that way because those who think so do not consider other explanations. This is a general observation, and not about you, to be explicit. I got into trouble before when my general comments were mistaken to be directed.



> That's certainly one way, but you don't need a tournament in order to pressure-test your abilities. In fact, the unrealistic nature of tournaments mitigates against it being an effective training venue.



Well, I'm of the opinion that you test yourself any way you can; and learn any way you can.

What you learn from tournaments might not be about martial prowess, but you can still learn other things.

There are also different kinds of pressure, of which different people have different reactions to.

Maybe you don't need a tournament. But that does not translate to other people not needing tournaments. It certainly doesn't translate to that people can't get enjoyment from participating in tournaments despite the outcome and that everyone going to a tournament must necessarily be comparing themselve with others.

Lastly, I can see value in comparing with others, but the value I see is probably not the value you are assuming when you give advice. Though I must say I still do not recall any instance in mh previous post where I mentioned anything about competing with other people.



> Sorry, but once again I don't see the connection. The only reason I said you need a Sifu, through a certain period of time at least, is to gain knowledge in the most effective way. After you gain that knowledge you no longer need that Sifu. It has nothing to do with conspiracy theories



You don't see the connection because you are reading that paragraph out of context from the rest of the post. Nothing to do with conspiracy theories were even suggested.

I was disagreeing with your view that there is only one true way to test yourself and that is in almost solitary confinement. In some ways, this view is exactly equivalent those "closed door" schools who make excuses for not testing themselves with, as you call it, "real" pressure.

Like I said earlier, there is no "true" way of testing yourself. Personally, I think that all methods discussed so far is equally valid and they lend themselves to a cyclical application. Sometimes it's good to test yourself solitarily and other times it's good to test yourself in the presence of others (which in no way implies there must be direct competition or the perception of competition). It's like a band: they do concerts when they're sick of being in the studio and records in the studio when they're sick of doing concerts.



> I never heard that one - sounds intriguing...



It's the flavour of the month. A lot of needless trouble has been created by people left and right claiming that there's only one true way to do things.


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## Franzfri (May 31, 2007)

As OXY said "Its like a band: They do concerts when they are tired of being in the studio and record in the studio when they are tired of doing concerts.  It's also like a music student who studies all semester and finishes with a recital.

Oh, and the judge who critiqued me was not judging my event.  I think he was showing off his expertise.  And my question was "Why Me?"  As I said, I'm over 60, pudgy and not very skilled.  I know that I show good intention and hopefully potential for improvement.  Maybe that's why they notice me.

Why participate in tournamets?  Here are my reasons;
1) Meeting other people that are around my age (over 60) who take Tai Chi seriously.
2) Learning about the other forms of Tai Chi and seeing them performed.
3) Seeing some awsome practitioners perform.
4) Workshops (when available as they were in Orlando) and the opportunity to meet and learn from other Tai Chi Sifus'.
5) Seeing Push Hands in practice for example.  Or seeing other things that will be taught to you in the future.  (I did not attend the Push Hands contests this time, but will probably try to watch some in the future,)
6) Having a positive influence on people who are beginners and influencing (_I can't think of the right word_) non-participating viewers (_eg. a grandparent there to watch the children compete_) to think about trying Tai Chi. 

As far as "profiting from yin yang".  Try to run a small serious school in the suburbs.  You need to pay the rent, support a family etc. etc.  Students aren't that easy to attract.  Most students come for a few lessons and give up.  There is really no dependable income.  My Sifu does adult school classes.  Thats how I found him.  Very few of the participants last the full 8 weeks.  Very few of those that last start to take regular group lessons or come back the following semester.  Childrens classes are probably the most dependable source of income.  I really want my Sifu to be able to keep his school open.  Tai Chi is very important to me for both my physical and mental well being.


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## SifuPhil (May 31, 2007)

oxy said:


> I think you miss the point.


It wouldn't be the first time, believe me. 



> franzfr had never talked about going to tournaments just to compete with others. In fact, going over her post again, nowhere was it mentioned that she was comparing or contrasting with others. There was a specific part of her post which specifically states that the other competitors no longer matter.


When I read that she had "participated in her first competition", "I competed in Intermediate Tai Chi", etc. I assumed she was competing. True, she didn't specify that was her sole purpose in going, but when you get flak from people as she did, especially from people that aren't even "judging" you, I see the worth of competitions eroding.



> I think you're debating your own preconceived notion rather than what was being said.


I don't think so, really. I'm taking one side of perception - I realize there are others. It's difficult for me to post replies that encompass all possible viewpoints - and besides, then there'd be no discussions and no learning.

And sometimes the words that are not spoken are the loudest.



> As a sidenote, in my experience, things that are "self-explanatory" are not. Things that seem "self-explanatory" seem that way because those who think so do not consider other explanations. This is a general observation, and not about you, to be explicit. I got into trouble before when my general comments were mistaken to be directed.


Understood. My version of "self-explanatory" meant that it's self-explanatory to _each_ of us, not to _all_ of us, based once again upon perceptions and level of experience.



> Well, I'm of the opinion that you test yourself any way you can; and learn any way you can.


True enough. I was setting down my opinion on the subject - no harm, no foul LOL.



> What you learn from tournaments might not be about martial prowess, but you can still learn other things.


That's what I wanted to warn her about...



> Maybe you don't need a tournament. But that does not translate to other people not needing tournaments. It certainly doesn't translate to that people can't get enjoyment from participating in tournaments despite the outcome and that everyone going to a tournament must necessarily be comparing themselve with others.


Understood and agreed. But I still believe that the majority of people that go to competitions go to compete with others. That entails comparing your skills, your talents and abilities to others and that, ultimately, leads to frustration. Name a child that goes to tournaments that doesn't go home with a long face when they don't get a plastic trophy. How many adults, even if they proclaim non-involvement in the results, leave either ecstatic or disappointed, neither of which lasts nor is of any prime importance in the grand scheme of things? 

I guess the hypothesis I'm trying to state here is that, even if you don't consciously go to a competition to compete, the very nature of the venue demands a competitive mindset. "You are who you associate with", or so "they" tell me - if that's true, then that mindset would rub off on you the moment you enter the doors - sometimes long before then.



> Lastly, I can see value in comparing with others, but the value I see is probably not the value you are assuming when you give advice. Though I must say I still do not recall any instance in mh previous post where I mentioned anything about competing with other people.


I know it probably sounded like it, but I wasn't giving advice. Chalk it up to my poor social and writing skills. Just verbalizing what was on the top of my bald little head. And no, you didn't mention competing with others - but Franzfr did.



> I was disagreeing with your view that there is only one true way to test yourself and that is in almost solitary confinement. In some ways, this view is exactly equivalent those "closed door" schools who make excuses for not testing themselves with, as you call it, "real" pressure.


Ah, OK. Not sure I said it was the only one true way, but no matter.

Ain't words fun? LOL



> Like I said earlier, there is no "true" way of testing yourself. Personally, I think that all methods discussed so far is equally valid and they lend themselves to a cyclical application. Sometimes it's good to test yourself solitarily and other times it's good to test yourself in the presence of others (which in no way implies there must be direct competition or the perception of competition). It's like a band: they do concerts when they're sick of being in the studio and records in the studio when they're sick of doing concerts.


Once again, I find your arguments lucid and I'm in agreement with them. I'm thinking mainly of Franzfr's statement of "Why do these men pick on me?" - like self-defense training, I was merely implying that if you plan your trip to stay out of the troublesome neighborhoods, you'll reduce the chances of bad mojo happening.



> It's the flavour of the month. A lot of needless trouble has been created by people left and right claiming that there's only one true way to do things.


Oh, yes! That's how politics and law works. :rules:


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