# McDojo Pt. 2 -- Follow up Thoughts



## Rumy73 (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks for all the great insight in the last topic I started on McDojos. 

A couple interesting things I took away:

 Non-contact -- Some strong feelings against such schools. I think there is a place for this style of teaching to a point. Learning to control power is important, but somethings can only be learned by actually doing? Such as developing  timing and distance when facing a moving target who is trying to hit you. 

Price does not indicate quality -- Good and bad schools can both be expensive. Gear, testing fees, et cetera. Even within a clearly profit driven school, talented students can arise. Why shouldn't a master profit from his knowledge? 

What is Good Anyway? A school that teaches what it advertises is part of that group, I hope. If they are teaching what amounts to cardio karate or just having slug fests and that is what people want...??? Or is the standard about how it teaches the art? We seem divided a bit here.

Styles and Schools -- Both are similar to denominations and places of worship within a given faith, as in the way the elicit passionate praise or critical diatribe.

Parents and Children -- Clearly parents want their kids to learn something about the martial arts. Some are tepid about accepting the whole program. Schools react by "watering down the program." Kids are awarded black belts (topic for elsewhere) and think they are what exactly?  Admittedly, I belong to a church and a political party of which I do not totally buy the whole program. I also have a 7 year old in a TKD school. Lots of belt colors and tests, but I see it as a start. Let him experience and grow. Mastery will come if and when he commits to study.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2013)

Wow, thats a really good summary actually, thanks!


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## Gorilla (Feb 26, 2013)

Nice summary!

My tow cents!!! It is a overused term thrown around and used to defame schools/styles...with little consideration for the facts!


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2013)

Good summary but basically you have summarized what is freely availed all over the web and has been for a while now all you need is a little webfu

McDojo



> McDojos are schools that are run and owned for the purpose of making money. Typically you are able to get a black belt in less than 2-3 years, and you are usually guranteed success on the black belt test. These schools charge outrageous amounts of money, have extensive contracts, and are sometimes cult like.





> A McDojo is a school that teaches a watered-down and impractical form of martial arts in the name of making money. They place the importance of profit well ahead of teaching anything realistic or credible in terms of self-defense, and are dangerous is the aspect that they send unprepared & often over confident students into a world thinking they can fight when in actuality they have no real fighting skills. Often McDojos teach a lot of bullshido, which is a term used to define deception, fraud, and lies in terms of martial arts.





> McDojo is a pejorative term (in the same vein as &#8220;McMansion&#8221; and "McChurch") referring to martial arts academies (generally located in the Western world) which, rather than being honestly committed to teaching students, are instead concerned primarily with amassing a profit. The means by which they do this is by pandering to Westerners&#8217; stereotypes of martial arts and teaching a form thereof which, while usually highly visually impressive; is watered-down, impractical, and quick & easy to acquire a &#8220;Black Belt&#8221; in. These schools are effectively diploma mills for martial arts (and sometimes called "belt mills"), with unearned Black Belts taking the place of unearned Ph.D.s.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Non-contact -- Some strong feelings against such schools. I think there is a place for this style of teaching to a point. Learning to control power is important, but somethings can only be learned by actually doing? Such as developing  timing and distance when facing a moving target who is trying to hit you.



I can say from experience that it becomes a habit to either pull your shots, or range to be too far away to actually do anything. Its ok from time to time for a particular exercise, but there are ways, such as reducing speed, to practice literally anything. Theres no excuses for never practicing with contact.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> I can say from experience that it becomes a habit to either pull your shots, or range to be too far away to actually do anything. Its ok from time to time for a particular exercise, but there are ways, such as reducing speed, to practice literally anything. Theres no excuses for never practicing with contact.


hmm sometimes its useful if you just thought of a new technique, and want to see how it would flow before you actually try it on someone, but even then i generally use bob, unless it involves arm/leg blocks or locks, at which point, you need to study anyway..meant to come in defending no contact, and ended up just supporting you're "but there are ways, such as reducing speed, to practice literally anything" line. Oh well


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## Cyriacus (Feb 26, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> hmm sometimes its useful if you just thought of a new technique, and want to see how it would flow before you actually try it on someone, but even then i generally use bob, unless it involves arm/leg blocks or locks, at which point, you need to study anyway..meant to come in defending no contact, and ended up just supporting you're "but there are ways, such as reducing speed, to practice literally anything" line. Oh well


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Price does not indicate quality -- Good and bad schools can both be expensive. Gear, testing fees, et cetera. Even within a clearly profit driven school, talented students can arise. Why shouldn't a master profit from his knowledge?



This is a good point.  I've seen some in the past scoff at the notion of teaching for free or very little.  Ridicule teaching at a community center, the park or even a back yard.  Yet some of the revered masters taught this way i.e. in their home, very small class, hard to get into, little or no money.  

If a teacher is teaching something of value that students need/desire/seek then it doesn't matter, or shouldn't matter whether the instructor charges a fee or teaches for free.  Whether it is a million dollar facility or someone's barn.  Conversely, making a living teaching the martial arts isn't necessarily an indicator of a McDojang.  Daniel Sullivan mentioned in one of these threads employing a sound business model.  No issue there at all.  Simply put, one instructor shouldn't look down on another because of the manner in which they wish to teach (in regards to where, how much is charged etc).


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## granfire (Feb 26, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is a good point.  I've seen some in the past scoff at the notion of teaching for free or very little.  Ridicule teaching at a community center, the park or even a back yard.  Yet some of the revered masters taught this way i.e. in their home, very small class, hard to get into, little or no money.
> 
> If a teacher is teaching something of value that students need/desire/seek then it doesn't matter, or shouldn't matter whether the instructor charges a fee or teaches for free.  Whether it is a million dollar facility or someone's barn.  Conversely, making a living teaching the martial arts isn't necessarily an indicator of a McDojang.  Daniel Sullivan mentioned in one of these threads employing a sound business model.  No issue there at all.  Simply put, one instructor shouldn't look down on another because of the manner in which they wish to teach (in regards to where, how much is charged etc).



you can't really win on the money front.

You charge nothing you are not valued, you charge enough to teach only, no day job required, you are money grabbing...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2013)

granfire said:


> you can't really win on the money front.
> 
> You charge nothing you are not valued, you charge enough to teach only, no day job required, you are money grabbing...


I've even heard siad of instructors who charge, but not a lot, and have another job, that they dont dedicate themselves enough to MA to teach..baloney!


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## granfire (Feb 26, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> I've even heard siad of instructors who charge, but not a lot, and have another job, that they dont dedicate themselves enough to MA to teach..baloney!



there you go....


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 27, 2013)

FWIW, in the early 1970's my instructor was with Han Cha Kyo. One of TKD Pioneers. GM Han believed in non contact sparring.  Primarily for 2 reasons. Decent safety equipment was not around when he started, and having started in the Military he said they could not risk getting banged up in training since they regularly went into combat where they'd get banged up for real. 

IMNSHO I feel the downside of non contact training outweighed the puported pros. However, I would never say his schools and progeny were Mc Dojang material. They trained hard and took longer to promote than most anyone.


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## Steve (Feb 27, 2013)

I don't begrudge a school owner a decent living.  It's very possible for a school owner to make money AND have quality instruction.  What I'm getting at is that, at least for me, a McDojo has nothing to do with the quality of the instruction.  It may or may not be good training.  McDojo is more about the manner in which the business is run: marketing, fee schedules, franchising and all of the other ways in which a martial arts school makes money.  

It's a weird disconnect on this board, where many (most?) of the posters lean conservative, and in all other areas would champion capitalism and the right of a small business to make as much money as possible.  But where martial arts are concerned, we tend to equate financial success with sub-par training.  I don't agree.  I think that sub-par training is a different animal entirely.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 27, 2013)

Steve said:


> I don't begrudge a school owner a decent living.  It's very possible for a school owner to make money AND have quality instruction.  What I'm getting at is that, at least for me, a McDojo has nothing to do with the quality of the instruction.  It may or may not be good training.  McDojo is more about the manner in which the business is run: marketing, fee schedules, franchising and all of the other ways in which a martial arts school makes money.



I see it as the other way - a McDojo is a place that churns out poor quality students (be it through too quick rank advancement or low standards).  The price is less important to me.  I liken it more to what I think of when I think of McDonalds, a chain restaurant that churns out low quality food.  It doesn't matter that McDonalds charge low prices for food or that the franchise owners make a fortune, it's about the quality.

So for me, having low price, contract terms, marketing, franchising etc isn't a sign of being a McDojo, consistently producing low quality students is.

If a small school is run by an inexperienced instructor, I wouldn't consider that necessarily a McDojo as it doesn't qualify on the "churn" part of my concept.  It's about throughput of low quality, not just low quality.


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## Steve (Feb 27, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> I see it as the other way - a McDojo is a place that churns out poor quality students (be it through too quick rank advancement or low standards).  The price is less important to me.  I liken it more to what I think of when I think of McDonalds, a chain restaurant that churns out low quality food.  It doesn't matter that McDonalds charge low prices for food or that the franchise owners make a fortune, it's about the quality.
> 
> So for me, having low price, contract terms, marketing, franchising etc isn't a sign of being a McDojo, consistently producing low quality students is.
> 
> If a small school is run by an inexperienced instructor, I wouldn't consider that necessarily a McDojo as it doesn't qualify on the "churn" part of my concept.  It's about throughput of low quality, not just low quality.


Fair enough.  I don't agree.  I think that poor instruction and schools churning out sub-par students is a different problem entirely.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 27, 2013)

Steve said:


> ..................What I'm getting at is that, at least for me, a McDojo has nothing to do with the quality of the instruction.  It may or may not be good training.  McDojo is more about the manner in which the business is run: marketing, fee schedules, franchising and all of the other ways in which a martial arts school makes money.
> 
> It's a weird disconnect on this board, where many (most?) of the posters lean conservative, and in all other areas would champion capitalism and the right of a small business to make as much money as possible.


I for one disagree with your concept / Definition of McDojo. That's OK reasonable minds can disagree. As with many things the discussion stall if the parties cannot agree on the definition. AFAIAC the McD analysis is with regard to the product being fast and easy.  Something that is typically the antithesis for most athletic training, and is particularly true of MA.


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## Steve (Feb 27, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> I for one disagree with your concept / Definition of McDojo. That's OK reasonable minds can disagree. As with many things the discussion stall if the parties cannot agree on the definition. AFAIAC the McD analysis is with regard to the product being fast and easy.  Something that is typically the antithesis for most athletic training, and is particularly true of MA.


Absolutely true, and this is a perfect example of how communication can stall if we don't confirm understanding. 

When I think of McDonalds, the following words jump to mind:  uniform, standardized, profit, franchise and growth.  The same qualities that drive Starbucks or any other huge business chain are encapsulated in the business model of McDonalds.  

And, I think it's important to recognize that McDonalds is clearly not a "GREAT" burger.  It is also not the worst around.  They exist and thrive as businesses precisely because they inhabit the sweet spot on a scale of quality vs accessibility.  They create food that is very, very consistent from one restaurant to the next.  When I used to do a lot of travelling, I'd always fill up my thermos at a McDonalds.  Not because it was the best coffee.  But because it was consistently good.  

I guess my point is that there is nothing inherently wrong with McDonalds.  Just as there is nothing inherently wrong with a McDojo.  It is what it is, and provided that the instruction is solid and the commitments to the customers are delivered, it's just a business model.   Simply put, you guys seem to me to be saying that a McDojo is essentially a fraudulent business, that the key characteristic of a McDojo is that they promise martial skill and don't deliver.  McDonalds doesn't defraud their customers.  You don't go into a McDonalds, order Duc L'Orange and get a Big Mac.  You order a Big Mac and you get one.  And it's the same Big Mac in Texas as it is in Washington.  The chicken is the same.  It's all the same, and it's exactly what you ordered.


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 27, 2013)

I remember a long time ago being given a script to memorize as a salesman. They told us, "It doesn't work because it's canned. It's canned because it works."


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2013)

I have one objection with this post, and it's here...


Steve said:


> And, I think it's important to recognize that McDonalds is clearly not a "GREAT" burger.  It is also not the worst around...When I used to do a lot of travelling, I'd always fill up my thermos at a McDonalds.  Not because it was the best coffee.  But because it was consistently good.


My problem with McDojos is that they're not consistent in the way McDonalds is, their teaching ability varies from school to school, even in the same franchise, and that unlike with McDonalds, not everyone knows its 'clearly not a great burger'. many people train at McDojos because when they heard the shpeal, it sounded like the greatest MA ever, and they're sucked into it with that expectation.


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## Steve (Feb 27, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> I have one objection with this post, and it's here...
> 
> My problem with McDojos is that they're not consistent in the way McDonalds is, their teaching ability varies from school to school, even in the same franchise, and that unlike with McDonalds, not everyone knows its 'clearly not a great burger'. many people train at McDojos because when they heard the shpeal, it sounded like the greatest MA ever, and they're sucked into it with that expectation.


What you're talking about sounds like fraud.  Not all McDojos are owned by con artists, although some undoubtedly are.  

I am going to risk speaking out of turn, so I'll gladly accept correction from those who know.  But I've heard a lot of criticism of TKD schools who train Olympic style competitors.  Let's just presume that it's ALL point sparring and Olympic style sparring and that they never, never, ever focus on Self Defense.  If the competitors are earning rank in a way that is consistent within the style AND they are learning skills which allow them to be competitive with students from other schools AND they are happy AND their parents are happy AND the school owner is making a decent living, who gives a damn whether it meets someone else's arbitrary standards for what a martial art should be?  (sorry for the run on sentence. )

So, that being said, the quality of the instruction and the qualifications of the instructor are independent of the business model.

To give an example, I know of some BJJ schools that are wildly successful and operate using what I would consider McDojo style business practices.  I don't have any problems with it, and I wouldn't have any reservations at all recommending the instructors or the schools to a friend interested in BJJ.  The owners are very good technicians and excellent coaches.  They want to make a living doing what they love.  More power to them, I say.

Conversely, I know a guy who isn't a McDojo, but who basically bought a black belt from a legit BJJ black belt.  He runs a moderately successful school financially, but I'd never recommend him, because I question his integrity and also have reservations about the quality of his instruction.


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## Rumy73 (Feb 27, 2013)

Steve said:


> What you're talking about sounds like fraud.  Not all McDojos are owned by con artists, although some undoubtedly are.
> 
> I am going to risk speaking out of turn, so I'll gladly accept correction from those who know.  But I've heard a lot of criticism of TKD schools who train Olympic style competitors.  Let's just presume that it's ALL point sparring and Olympic style sparring and that they never, never, ever focus on Self Defense.  If the competitors are earning rank in a way that is consistent within the style AND they are learning skills which allow them to be competitive with students from other schools AND they are happy AND their parents are happy AND the school owner is making a decent living, who gives a damn whether it meets someone else's arbitrary standards for what a martial art should be?  (sorry for the run on sentence. )
> 
> ...



Your comments are reasonable. If a school omits self defense and pushes competition, there is nothing wrong with it. They should not, however, tout themselves as a teacher of SD. Competition training is hard work!


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## Steve (Feb 27, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Your comments are reasonable. If a school omits self defense and pushes competition, there is nothing wrong with it. They should not, however, tout themselves as a teacher of SD. Competition training is hard work!



Agreed.  To misrepresent oneself could be fraud.

And, as an aside, this is one of my biggest beefs with schools who focus on training children.  They often allege to be teaching self defense, when in reality, they are not. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2013)

Steve said:


> Agreed.  To misrepresent oneself could be fraud.
> 
> And, as an aside, this is one of my biggest beefs with schools who focus on training children.  They often allege to be teaching self defense, when in reality, they are not.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Some of them teach mental self defense/how to respond o bullies, how to control anger, etc. while not teaching more than the basics. I'm not qualified (yet, give me a few years and a college degree and i will be)to say if their mental aspects are correct, but if they are, I see no problem with them passing it off as self defense.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2013)

Steve said:


> What you're talking about sounds like fraud.  Not all McDojos are owned by con artists, although some undoubtedly are.
> 
> I am going to risk speaking out of turn, so I'll gladly accept correction from those who know.  But I've heard a lot of criticism of TKD schools who train Olympic style competitors.  Let's just presume that it's ALL point sparring and Olympic style sparring and that they never, never, ever focus on Self Defense.  If the competitors are earning rank in a way that is consistent within the style AND they are learning skills which allow them to be competitive with students from other schools AND they are happy AND their parents are happy AND the school owner is making a decent living, who gives a damn whether it meets someone else's arbitrary standards for what a martial art should be?  (sorry for the run on sentence. )
> 
> ...


Hmm, i think I see where my objection comes from..a difference in how we define McDojo. My definition for it is that it must have 2 things: focused on making money rather than helping students, and 2: teaching incorrect/useless/bad technique or ways of thinking without being too bothered, so long as they get their money. You seem to have just the 1st part of my definition, minus possibly the 'rather than helping students' part. With that definition, I take back my objection.


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 27, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> Hmm, i think I see where my objection comes from..a difference in how we define McDojo. My definition for it is that it must have 2 things: focused on making money rather than helping students, and 2: teaching incorrect/useless/bad technique or ways of thinking without being too bothered, so long as they get their money. You seem to have just the 1st part of my definition, minus possibly the 'rather than helping students' part. With that definition, I take back my objection.



I think that the majority of "mcdojangs " are not focused on money rather than helping students, but sincerely want to and think they are going both. For the second point, I believe this often comes from people teaching (especially on their own) before they should be. Another thing that happens in these situations is the unprepared instructor spends all their time teaching and little to no time on further training/education. A further problem is that these people often don't know that they don't know.


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## Steve (Feb 27, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> Hmm, i think I see where my objection comes from..a difference in how we define McDojo. My definition for it is that it must have 2 things: focused on making money rather than helping students, and 2: teaching incorrect/useless/bad technique or ways of thinking without being too bothered, so long as they get their money. You seem to have just the 1st part of my definition, minus possibly the 'rather than helping students' part. With that definition, I take back my objection.



I guess I don't see McDonald's as being malicious.  As I said before, you know exactly what you are getting when you order a Big Mac or a quarter pounder with cheese.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 27, 2013)

So using the mcdonalds analogy, does that mean a school has to be part of a chain/franchise to be considered a mcdojo? Can the small school down the road with twenty students be a mcdojo? By soley determining a mcdojo by its "business plan", then I train at a mcdojo, and I can asdure you that from most people's perspective the club I train at is about as far from a mcdojo as you will get.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 27, 2013)

I guess now would be a bad time to just comment that i, personally, dont like McDonalds food. :uhyeah:


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 28, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> I guess now would be a bad time to just comment that i, personally, dont like McDonalds food. :uhyeah:


 I feel the same way and havent eaten mcdonalds in nearly ten years. The word mcdonalds gives of connotations of cheap, poor quality, fast, etc , when I hear the term mcdojo I associate the term with cheap n' nasty not a "business model".


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## Makalakumu (Feb 28, 2013)

Steve said:


> I don't begrudge a school owner a decent living.  It's very possible for a school owner to make money AND have quality instruction.  What I'm getting at is that, at least for me, a McDojo has nothing to do with the quality of the instruction.  It may or may not be good training.  McDojo is more about the manner in which the business is run: marketing, fee schedules, franchising and all of the other ways in which a martial arts school makes money.
> 
> It's a weird disconnect on this board, where many (most?) of the posters lean conservative, and in all other areas would champion capitalism and the right of a small business to make as much money as possible.  But where martial arts are concerned, we tend to equate financial success with sub-par training.  I don't agree.  I think that sub-par training is a different animal entirely.



I agree that there is a weird disconnect when it comes to Mcdojos and the martial arts industry in general. They really are just a reflection of the free market. That said, I think "sub-par" is a bit too judgmental. Mcdojos provide a service to people who want the product. If it was "sub-par" for their needs, they wouldn't buy it. 

A Mcdojo is sub-par for my needs in training, but i can't begrudge a bunch of five year old just because they aren't learning sayoc knife technique. I hope they just have fun and have a good experience of the martial art. I don't even care if they get a black belt. 

Imagine how many students a more rigorous trainer could pick up simply by taking themselves a little less seriously and marketing to the mobs of people who get inspired in belt factories? Relatedly, look at what Rorian Gracie did. Look at how many people got their start in a Mcdojo and switch over to that business model...er I meant art...or maybe there simply isn't a distinction.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 28, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> I agree that there is a weird disconnect when it comes to Mcdojos and the martial arts industry in general. They really are just a reflection of the free market. That said, I think "sub-par" is a bit too judgmental. Mcdojos provide a service to people who want the product. If it was "sub-par" for their needs, they wouldn't buy it.
> 
> A Mcdojo is sub-par for my needs in training, but i can't begrudge a bunch of five year old just because they aren't learning sayoc knife technique. I hope they just have fun and have a good experience of the martial art. I don't even care if they get a black belt.
> 
> Imagine how many students a more rigorous trainer could pick up simply by taking themselves a little less seriously and marketing to the mobs of people who get inspired in belt factories? Relatedly, look at what Rorian Gracie did. Look at how many people got their start in a Mcdojo and switch over to that business model...er I meant art...or maybe there simply isn't a distinction.



Id argue that McDojos are subpar. And that some people want subpar. Mouldy bread doesnt get less mouldy just because you like the taste, or youre using it for cooking.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 28, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Id argue that McDojos are subpar. And that some people want subpar. Mouldy bread doesnt get less mouldy just because you like the taste, or youre using it for cooking.



For a mom who wants to help their kid to be a ninja and wants him to play tag sparring because she's afraid for him, Mcdojo training is perfect. It is not sub-par for their needs at all.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 28, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> For a mom who wants to help their kid to be a ninja and wants him to play tag sparring because she's afraid for him, Mcdojo training is perfect. It is not sub-par for their needs at all.



Hence my analogy at the end. You can use moulded bread in a variety of good recipes and meals. Its still mouldy. It just isnt a bad thing in that context.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 28, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> For a mom who wants to help their kid to be a ninja and wants him to play tag sparring because she's afraid for him, Mcdojo training is perfect. It is not sub-par for their needs at all.


does "tag sparring" or non contact sparring equate to a mcdojo? what about arts that dont do full contact, or dont do full contact until after black belt, such as the majority of shotokan schools, does that make them mcdojos?


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## Cyriacus (Feb 28, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> does "tag sparring" or non contact sparring equate to a mcdojo? what about arts that dont do full contact, or dont do full contact until after black belt, such as the majority of shotokan schools, does that make them mcdojos?



Well, the majority of Shotokan schools arent exactly training people up specifically for sparring as the core expression of their skills, like Boxing does for instance.
At least, not as far as i know. Correct me if im wrong 

EDIT: Im not sure i communicated that too clearly. In Boxing, you learn a bunch of skills which are directly expressed in sparring, and sparring becomes a measure of your skill. Shotokan has a bunch of other stuff as well, other than sparring. Therefore, if the sole expression of your skills is sparring, and that sparring is weak and ineffective, its poor sparring. That doesnt mean it isnt exactly what someone wants. In some other systems, sparring is a tool to learn other skills. Shotokan, prior to black belt, is semi contact i believe? So, there is contact being made? If so, i see no issue personally.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 28, 2013)

Just an aside, I went to my daughters interview for highschool with her recently. During the very intense interview he noted on her application that she is one belt from black belt in tkd.  This drew more attention than any of her other achievments. I spoke to the principal after the interview regarding this and he said most schools regard having a black belt very highly, and said that alone would go a long way toward her application being successful. It got me thinking that mcdojos handing out black belts easily serve a vital role for parents wanting to add some "fluff" to their child's resume.


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## granfire (Feb 28, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Just an aside, I went to my daughters interview for highschool with her recently. During the very intense interview he noted on her application that she is one belt from black belt in tkd.  This drew more attention than any of her other achievments. I spoke to the principal after the interview regarding this and he said most schools regard having a black belt very highly, and said that alone would go a long way toward her application being successful. It got me thinking that mcdojos handing out black belts easily serve a vital role for parents wanting to add some "fluff" to their child's resume.



Interesting.

The myth of the black cloth continues....


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## Gorilla (Feb 28, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Just an aside, I went to my daughters interview for highschool with her recently. During the very intense interview he noted on her application that she is one belt from black belt in tkd.  This drew more attention than any of her other achievments. I spoke to the principal after the interview regarding this and he said most schools regard having a black belt very highly, and said that alone would go a long way toward her application being successful. It got me thinking that mcdojos handing out black belts easily serve a vital role for parents wanting to add some "fluff" to their child's resume.



How old will your daughter be when she gets he BB?


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## Steve (Feb 28, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> So using the mcdonalds analogy, does that mean a school has to be part of a chain/franchise to be considered a mcdojo? Can the small school down the road with twenty students be a mcdojo? By soley determining a mcdojo by its "business plan", then I train at a mcdojo, and I can asdure you that from most people's perspective the club I train at is about as far from a mcdojo as you will get.


I would say that a small school using a particular business plan that would include growth via franchise could be a mcdojo.  I mean, that's a part of it.  Right?  

Ultimately, what I'm suggesting is that we distinguish between a business model and fraud.  In the other McDojo thread (no, not that one... the other one...  do we have too many threads on the same topic right now?) someone posted an ad where you could be a "native kenpo" black belt for the low, low price of $1280 or so.  That's not a McDojo to me.  That's a con.  

The MA specific business practices that I think are indicative of a McDojo include franchising, usually by encouraging (strongly encouraging) senior students to teach for free in the hopes that they can someday open their own affiliate school.  Other traits would be contracts, strong emphasis on getting mom and dad to train because junior likes it, an emphasis on kids programs, charging for belt promotions, which are compulsory and regularly scheduled... this sort of thing.  Some is a little sleazier than others.  

One I saw and thought was pretty slimy was where the "Master" (ie, the owner of the school) didn't teach regular classes.  No, when he taught, it was outside of the regular schedule and was called a "seminar."  And the seminar was mandatory (or strongly suggested) and also cost more money.  And they happened every month.


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## Steve (Feb 28, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> does "tag sparring" or non contact sparring equate to a mcdojo? what about arts that dont do full contact, or dont do full contact until after black belt, such as the majority of shotokan schools, does that make them mcdojos?


I've seen BJJ schools that I would deem McDojo.  They spar, have great instruction and "churn" out world champions.  The organization is called Gracie Barra.  I have nothing but respect for the GB instructors I know in this area.  But the business model is McDojo.  And it's helped them become the largest and most powerful affiliation in BJJ.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 28, 2013)

Steve said:


> Ultimately, what I'm suggesting is that we distinguish between a business model and fraud.  In the other McDojo thread (no, not that one... the other one...  do we have too many threads on the same topic right now?) someone posted an ad where you could be a "native kenpo" black belt for the low, low price of $1280 or so.  That's not a McDojo to me.  That's a con.



What if someone wants to buy that fantasy? Put yourself into the position of the consumer. Are they victims? How much rigor did they put into their MA research if they are giving the "native kenpo" guy their money? I think the whole Mcdojo debate really fails to see both sides of the economic equation. It tends to focus on the supply side, aka this person is bullshido, but fails to recognize that bullshido fills a legit demand. Our society can afford fantasy in martial arts. Business will capitalize. It's as regular as a law of nature. This whole idea of whether or not it's bad is based off of an inability to understand the economics of the industry.


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## granfire (Feb 28, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> What if someone wants to buy that fantasy? Put yourself into the position of the consumer. Are they victims? How much rigor did they put into their MA research if they are giving the "native kenpo" guy their money? I think the whole Mcdojo debate really fails to see both sides of the economic equation. It tends to focus on the supply side, aka this person is bullshido, but fails to recognize that bullshido fills a legit demand. Our society can afford fantasy in martial arts. Business will capitalize. It's as regular as a law of nature. This whole idea of whether or not it's bad is based off of an inability to understand the economics of the industry.



well, you tell you are a <insert art/fantasy here> BB to the wrong person, you get the crap kicked out of you. 

and I also think the Nation is not too pleased with his antics, selling the 'native' gig.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 28, 2013)

granfire said:


> well, you tell you are a <insert art/fantasy here> BB to the wrong person, you get the crap kicked out of you.
> 
> and I also think the Nation is not too pleased with his antics, selling the 'native' gig.



At least it makes for great youtube videos...


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## msmitht (Feb 28, 2013)

Steve said:


> I've seen BJJ schools that I would deem McDojo.  They spar, have great instruction and "churn" out world champions.  The organization is called Gracie Barra.  I have nothing but respect for the GB instructors I know in this area.  But the business model is McDojo.  And it's helped them become the largest and most powerful affiliation in BJJ.



I will forward this to Carlinhos, whom i know personally. Im sure he will laugh out loud. A mcdojo is a school that sucks and churns out crappy black belts all the time and has shady business practices. I have never seen that in bjj. I attend and teach at a gracie barra in san diego county. If you want to refer to a martial arts school as a mcdojo i suggest you look elsewhere.  you are welcome to attend class with me and some fellow brown/black belt friends of mine. We will treat you like everyone who comes through the door: honestly and respectfully.


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## msmitht (Feb 28, 2013)

Don't hate us because we are successful and have maintained quality instruction steve


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## Steve (Feb 28, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> What if someone wants to buy that fantasy? Put yourself into the position of the consumer. Are they victims? How much rigor did they put into their MA research if they are giving the "native kenpo" guy their money? I think the whole Mcdojo debate really fails to see both sides of the economic equation. It tends to focus on the supply side, aka this person is bullshido, but fails to recognize that bullshido fills a legit demand. Our society can afford fantasy in martial arts. Business will capitalize. It's as regular as a law of nature. This whole idea of whether or not it's bad is based off of an inability to understand the economics of the industry.


Are they victims?  That depends upon whether there is blatant and intentional misrepresentation.  If someone is interested in buying into a fantasy, more power to them, I say.  I know people who love to LARP, and there's nothing wrong with it, provided it's being sold as LARPing and not as something else.  

This is like the beef/horse meat situation.  I have no problem eating horse meat, honestly.  I do have a problem with buying what I believe is cow meat that is being sold as horse meat.


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## Steve (Feb 28, 2013)

msmitht said:


> I will forward this to Carlinhos, whom i know personally. Im sure he will laugh out loud. A mcdojo is a school that sucks and churns out crappy black belts all the time and has shady business practices. I have never seen that in bjj. I attend and teach at a gracie barra in san diego county. If you want to refer to a martial arts school as a mcdojo i suggest you look elsewhere.  you are welcome to attend class with me and some fellow brown/black belt friends of mine. We will treat you like everyone who comes through the door: honestly and respectfully.


Whoa!  Hey.  Hold your horses.  I have zero problems with Gracie Barra!  I tried to go out of my way to make that clear.  I would really, really hate for anyone to think otherwise, as I know many great people who train in the GB family.  

Jesus, man.  Read the entire post.  The point I'm trying to make is that McDojo is about being financially successful, building the business and making money.  It has nothing to do with quality control.  

Edit:  It sounds to me like you presume that McDojo is negative.  I get that, and if you define it that way, fine.  I don't.  I have said several times that I don't begrudge anyone financial success.  The distinction that I'm making is that there is financial success (which is good) that can sometimes be achieved through dishonest means (which is bad).  The financial success is not a problem.  The dishonesty is (at least for me).

Gracie Barra is financially successful, but is not dishonest.  HOpe this makes more sense.


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## granfire (Feb 28, 2013)

Steve said:


> Whoa!  Hey.  Hold your horses.  I have zero problems with Gracie Barra!  I tried to go out of my way to make that clear.  I would really, really hate for anyone to think otherwise, as I know many great people who train in the GB family.
> 
> Jesus, man.  Read the entire post.  The point I'm trying to make is that McDojo is about being financially successful, building the business and making money.  It has nothing to do with quality control.
> 
> ...



Oh mate, you ran into that one wide open...

McDojo _is_ a put down.

Now, does that mean that a system that has it's act together fails or is bad? Heck no. 

When the product is alright, Mc away! 

But there are a lot that do water down the curriculum and in the end all that is left is one directional cash flow.

I still have not changed, it's several years overdue....the former organization used to be an 'alliance', the turned franchise, while cutting down requirements and increasing fees. They certainly got Mc-ified....great shame, because the program I joined under was pretty good.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 1, 2013)

granfire said:


> Oh mate, you ran into that one wide open...
> 
> McDojo _is_ a put down.
> I
> ...



I have to agree. Mcdojo is a put down, it has negative connotations.  I dont know how a really good school, teaching good curriculum with quality teachers can be a mcdojo. As far as I am concerned mcdojo does not mean the business model used, it is a derogatory term for sub standard schools and I am sure thats the way most people view the term. Put it this way, have you ever heard someone say "hey a great new karate school just opened up the road, they have really good black belts and are trained by a former world champion sixth dan. It takes about seven years to get a black belt and its not easy to progress through the ranks but they have trained some national champions there. Oh, but they are a Mcdojo though". That just wouldn't make any sense to most people.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 1, 2013)

Steve said:


> Are they victims?  That depends upon whether there is blatant and intentional misrepresentation.  If someone is interested in buying into a fantasy, more power to them, I say.  I know people who love to LARP, and there's nothing wrong with it, provided it's being sold as LARPing and not as something else.
> 
> This is like the beef/horse meat situation.  I have no problem eating horse meat, honestly.  I do have a problem with buying what I believe is cow meat that is being sold as horse meat.



Good point.  However, have you ever wondered if civil penalties could ever be filed against people who sell obviously fraudulent products?  Are there any real consequences for being a con man in the martial arts industry?


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## Cyriacus (Mar 1, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Good point.  However, have you ever wondered if civil penalties could ever be filed against people who sell obviously fraudulent products?  Are there any real consequences for being a con man in the martial arts industry?



You can get away with being a conman as well.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 1, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Good point.  However, have you ever wondered if civil penalties could ever be filed against people who sell obviously fraudulent products?  Are there any real consequences for being a con man in the martial arts industry?



Most numb nuts who mis represent are not afraid of "Civil penalties" since they know someone would have to expend resources to sue them. 

BUT, I have from time to time come across people who mis represented themselves to be with an organization I was associated with (or in a couple of cases used a certain logo) I advised them  to cease and desist or they would be reported to the authorities as pepetrating criminal fraud.   100% of the time there has been an "Apology" for a mistake and any such representations were removed.


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## Gorilla (Mar 1, 2013)

Mcdojo or Mcdojang is a put down used to many times by certain people to stereotype a certain style or organization!

It is thrown around quite liberally!  Many times it is hurled at schools that make money!  Not a term I like or use...to easily thrown around!


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## Steve (Mar 1, 2013)

Guys, I understand that McDojo is a put down.  I'm asking you guys to consider an alternative point of view.  You are not wrong, but I am also not wrong.  These are opinions.

As Gorilla states above, the term is often used as an insult toward schools that make money.  It is implied that for a school to be successful, they surely must sacrifice quality.  I've shared an example in BJJ of a group that is very successful AND maintains high standards.

So, what I'm suggesting is that you consider that the term isn't as much about quality in real life.  It's an implication that is often not true, and that the quality of the instruction, whether through fraud, greed or incompetence, is another issue entirely.

After all, to some people, commercialism is itself a bad word.  To others, though, like myself, commercial success only makes sense.  After all, why do something "for a living" if you don't intend to earn your living in its pursuit?   

So, what does "McDojo" mean?  Based upon the comments in the three or four different threads on this topic active right now, it means something different to each person.  But there is one common thread, and that is commercial success.  In some cases, the term is aptly used in a negative way.  In others, it's sour grapes by people who have not achieved the same level of success, and so try to imply that their lack of commercial success is actually a good thing. 

Bill Mattocks started a very interesting thread on the very point I'm trying to make here:  http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/85039-In-Defense-of-the-McDojo


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## Cyriacus (Mar 1, 2013)

Steve said:


> Guys, I understand that McDojo is a put down.  I'm asking you guys to consider an alternative point of view.  You are not wrong, but I am also not wrong.  These are opinions.
> 
> As Gorilla states above, the term is often used as an insult toward schools that make money.  It is implied that for a school to be successful, they surely must sacrifice quality.  I've shared an example in BJJ of a group that is very successful AND maintains high standards.
> 
> ...



To be fair, it isnt about whos right and whos wrong.

I mean, to me, ******ing is a way of welding i learnt ages ago. But if i say im going to pop out to the shed and do some ******ing, it sounds like im planning to murder a homosexual or something. It doesnt matter what the word means, its connotations arent going to change.

EDIT: Im fairly confident you can all work out what the word is. It starts with 'fa'. Its the only example i could think of that made sense in this discussion.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 1, 2013)

Perhaps the connection between fraudsters and Mcdojos needs to be re-evaluated. Everyone has a different view of what a Mcdojo is, but I think we're much closer in our views on martial arts con men. Maybe Mcdojo is too good of a perjorative for those guys...lol.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 1, 2013)

Steve said:


> Guys, I understand that McDojo is a put down.  I'm asking you guys to consider an alternative point of view.  You are not wrong, but I am also not wrong.  These are opinions.
> 
> .


I would think by now you would have realized that there is a widely accepted definition of the term McDojo. It is not how you choose to define it.   it's like the politicians using an invented term "Assault weapons". you can choose to use your unique definition and confuse discussions or you can accept the widely accepted term choosing something else   to name your idea. If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? ... I still has 4. calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.


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## Steve (Mar 1, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> I would think by now you would have realized that there is a widely accepted definition of the term McDojo. It is not how you choose to define it.   it's like the politicians using an invented term "Assault weapons". you can choose to use your unique definition and confuse discussions or you can accept the widely accepted term choosing something else   to name your idea. If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? ... I still has 4. calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.


LOL.  So, you're saying that my opinion is wrong?  Or are you saying that your definition of a McDojo is not opinion?  If the definition of a McDojo is so concrete, why do we have so many threads, both active and archived, on the subject?  It seems to me that the definition of McDojo is far from canon.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 1, 2013)

a school can make money, and NOT cut corners on quality

such schools are not mcdojos

it is however very very rare


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## Tames D (Mar 1, 2013)

Twin Fist said:


> a school can make money, and NOT cut corners on quality
> 
> such schools are not mcdojos
> 
> it is however very very rare



I couldn't agree with you more, fanboy.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 1, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Just an aside, I went to my daughters interview for highschool with her recently. During the very intense interview he noted on her application that she is one belt from black belt in tkd.  This drew more attention than any of her other achievments. I spoke to the principal after the interview regarding this and he said most schools regard having a black belt very highly, and said that alone would go a long way toward her application being successful.* It got me thinking that mcdojos handing out black belts easily serve a vital role for parents wanting to add some "fluff" to their child's resume*.



I agree with you there.  While not universal, there are certainly many parents who seem to have a check list; gymnastics, violin, piano lessons, black belt in TKD (or any other art), etc.  They check off each activity and are genuinely proud that they have given their child so much enrichment.  While I think that there is a part of it that is good; the child gets exposure to the martial arts, it also usually means that after the child earns his/her black belt, they are quitting and miss the concept that the black belt is really just a beginning.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 1, 2013)

Steve said:


> LOL.  So, you're saying that my opinion is wrong?  Or are you saying that your definition of a McDojo is not opinion?  If the definition of a McDojo is so concrete, why do we have so many threads, both active and archived, on the subject?  It seems to me that the definition of McDojo is far from canon.



There are a lot of  elements going into what may or may not be a McDojo. You are the only one on this board who seems to think it has a non negative possibility.    BTW I use Canons for shooting.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 1, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> There are a lot of  elements going into what may or may not be a McDojo. You are the only one on this board who seems to think it has a non negative possibility.    BTW I use Canons for shooting.


Exactly. I think almost everyone here has the same idea (give or take some minor details) about what a mcdojo is. The two common elements are that it does not describe a business model and that it is a negative term.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 1, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Exactly. I think almost everyone here has the same idea (give or take some minor details) about what a mcdojo is. The two common elements are that it does not describe a business model and that it is a negative term.



If it doesn't describe a business model, what does the "Mc" in Mcdojo refer to?


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## granfire (Mar 1, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> If it doesn't describe a business model, what does the "Mc" in Mcdojo refer to?



:lfao:


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 1, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> If it doesn't describe a business model, what does the "Mc" in Mcdojo refer to?


business type ie. cheap n' nasty, as opposed to business model/strategy


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## Makalakumu (Mar 1, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> business type ie. cheap n' nasty, as opposed to business model/strategy



That sounds like a business model to me.  :uhyeah:

When I see the addition of the "Mc" I think it refers to a uniform, franchised product, where quality is standardized broadly.  Consequently, the bar is set lower then establishments that are more specialized.  McDonalds made this famous and it has actually made the addition of the "Mc" to other things trite.  I think this is a pretty common understanding in the business world and in the minds of most people.  

That said, I don't understand the sentiment that McDojo isn't referring to a business model.  I think it obviously does and I think that the fact that it does allows us to predict certain things about the business.  McDojo may be a pejorative term, but if we dig into it a little, we can also see that it obviously applies to a certain type of business model.


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## Dobbelsteen (Mar 2, 2013)

Steve said:


> Guys, I understand that McDojo is a put down.  I'm asking you guys to consider an alternative point of view.  You are not wrong, but I am also not wrong.  These are opinions.
> 
> As Gorilla states above, the term is often used as an insult toward schools that make money.  It is implied that for a school to be successful, they surely must sacrifice quality.  I've shared an example in BJJ of a group that is very successful AND maintains high standards.
> 
> ...



McDojo implies that they make money by selling poor quality products. McDonalds is a successful business and there is nothing wrong with that. But for a restaurant which sells quality food it will be an insult to be compared to McDonalds, no matter how much of a financial success they are. So it seems to me that calling a high quality martial art school a McDojo is just as insulting, even when they make a lot of money.


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 2, 2013)

Dobbelsteen said:


> McDojo implies that they make money by selling poor quality products. McDonalds is a successful business and there is nothing wrong with that. But for a restaurant which sells quality food it will be an insult to be compared to McDonalds, no matter how much of a financial success they are. So it seems to me that calling a high quality martial art school a McDojo is just as insulting, even when they make a lot of money.



There are a great many restaurants that aspire to be compared with McDonald's.  There's really nothing wrong with McDonald's as a product. They aren't marketing themselves as a gourmet restaurant. McDonald's is a leader in the fast food industry for a reason. And it's not only because it's fast. There is plenty of competition in the market.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 2, 2013)

I find it very interesting that people are defending McDojo's.

Pax,

Chris


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> There are a great many restaurants that aspire to be compared with McDonald's. There's really nothing wrong with McDonald's as a product. They aren't marketing themselves as a gourmet restaurant. McDonald's is a leader in the fast food industry for a reason. And it's not only *because it's fast.* There is plenty of competition in the market.



You haven't seen the one near me then lol, like everything in this area it's slow and leisurely.


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 2, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> I find it very interesting that people are defending McDojo's.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



I'm not defending legitimate mcdojangs, but I think all to often people throw that word around out of bitterness or because the training is different from their own ideal.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 2, 2013)

Sure, and IIRC, some people have already pointed that out. But the idea that McDonald's is a business model to be emulated so maybe McDojo's are really good is just a bit odd. I think some people are trying too hard to split hairs when it's unnecessary, that's all.

Pax,

Chris


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> Sure, and IIRC, some people have already pointed that out. But the idea that McDonald's is a business model to be emulated so maybe McDojo's are really good is just a bit odd. I think some people are trying too hard to split hairs when it's unnecessary, that's all.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



McDs as a business model for fast food outlets is an excellent one, I don't see how it can be a good one for martial arts though, it's such a different 'product' from fast food you couldn't really follow their business model. 
Martial arts as a 'product' would follow something like the Royal Ballet School. http://www.royal-ballet-school.org.uk/mission.php?s=1 or a music conservatoire


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## Gorilla (Mar 2, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> I find it very interesting that people are defending McDojo's.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



I for one hate the term!  It thrown around to loosely by to many people.  If you do this you are a McDojo/McDojang.

I understand there is bad product out there!  My son was a Poom belt at 8 and the vitriol that was thrown around was quite thick.  A well known poster on this BBS said his instructor should be slapped.

It is almost 4 years latter and my sons has been in the Martial arts for 11 years total.

He is a 3rd Dan KKW ( had it transferred to Dan grade when he turned 15). He is also Shodan in Shotokan Karate.

Will test for 4th Dan KKW at 18 if his current development continues.  He was a 3rd Poom before 13 so he is elgible at 18 for 4th.

Allot of people have questioned his credentials but never the people who know him as a Martial Artist!  His work ethic and dedication are very high!

The word McDojo has been thrown in regards to my son because of his early development slash promotions.  He has never attended a McDojang or McDojo!


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> I for one hate the term! It thrown around to loosely by to many people. If you do this you are a McDojo/McDojang.
> 
> I understand there is bad product out there! My son was a Poom belt at 8 and the vitriol that was thrown around was quite thick. A well known poster on this BBS said his instructor should be slapped.
> 
> ...




It's easy enough to see why you got the flak, it's because the rapid promotion of children is considered one of the defining features of a McDojo so you can't have been surprised. They also see high ranking youngsters as being a marker for a McDojo and to be honest it is hard to not argue that such high rank as such a young age is something that may not be considered desirable.
I'm sure he's everything you say he is but surely you must see where people are coming from?


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 2, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> I for one hate the term! It thrown around to loosely by to many people. If you do this you are a McDojo/McDojang.
> 
> I understand there is bad product out there! My son was a Poom belt at 8 and the vitriol that was thrown around was quite thick. A well known poster on this BBS said his instructor should be slapped.
> 
> ...



I'm not really clear on your timeline here. If your son was first poom at 8 and 4 years later he's trained for a total of 11 years does that mean he started at 1? That can't be right since you say he transferred to dan rank at 15. 



> Will test for 4th Dan KKW at 18 if his current development continues. He was a 3rd Poom before 13 so he is elgible at 18 for 4th.
> 
> Allot of people have questioned his credentials but never the people who know him as a Martial Artist! His work ethic and dedication are very high!
> 
> The word McDojo has been thrown in regards to my son because of his early development slash promotions. He has never attended a McDojang or McDojo!



The KKW can have whatever age requirements it wants. If you are happy with your son's training then who cares what other people say? (I always hear people say similar things when asked about rank, training, etc.) If he has received quality training, and all of your posts on the subject seem to confirm that he has, then almost by definition he doesn't attend a McDojo. But that certainly doesn't mean they don't exist. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Gorilla (Mar 2, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> It's easy enough to see why you got the flak, it's because the rapid promotion of children is considered one of the defining features of a McDojo so you can't have been surprised. They also see high ranking youngsters as being a marker for a McDojo and to be honest it is hard to not argue that such high rank as such a young age is something that may not be considered desirable.
> I'm sure he's everything you say he is but surely you must see where people are coming from?



I understand why people might think that way... the rush to judgement was at light speed! It was also stated in terms that left no room for the possibility of any understanding!  For many it is still that way!  It sounds to good to be true but yesterday he trained in Tkd/Karate and Yoga...today Karate and Judo!  Charlie loves martial arts it is his life!

BTW we will finish the day with UFC on fuel Brian Stan v Wanderlei Silva.  It is fighting 24/7 in our house.

Will be in Europe (Hamburg, Germany) for Tkd next week(German open).  My daughter is fighting with the AAU National Team!


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## Makalakumu (Mar 2, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> McDs as a business model for fast food outlets is an excellent one, I don't see how it can be a good one for martial arts though, it's such a different 'product' from fast food you couldn't really follow their business model.
> Martial arts as a 'product' would follow something like the Royal Ballet School. http://www.royal-ballet-school.org.uk/mission.php?s=1 or a music conservatoire



That's a great example of a high quality business and I'm sure that there are many martial arts schools like that. I train at a jujutsu school like that.

On the other hand, I still think it doesn't matter what we want our training to look like. Other consumers want Mcdojos. They like giving their money to a big franchise and they are perfectly pleased with the quality of the product. I don't think this is bad for the martial arts, because it just gets more people training. The high quality schools benefit because the people who train in Mcdojos and want more were introduced to training by the Mcdojo. 

It's a win win situation from a business standpoint.


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## granfire (Mar 2, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> It's easy enough to see why you got the flak, it's because the rapid promotion of children is considered one of the defining features of a McDojo so you can't have been surprised. They also see high ranking youngsters as being a marker for a McDojo and to be honest it is hard to not argue that such high rank as such a young age is something that may not be considered desirable.
> I'm sure he's everything you say he is but surely you must see where people are coming from?



On the other hand, I see that type of criticism coming from 'old' people who are barely able to kick above the waist line or ascend a flight of stairs without encountering shortness of breath. Or they have a twinge of jealousy, because they have been at it for a decade....

I have seen many black belts under the age of 18. With the exception of maybe one who was really not into the spirit of things, I think most of them would have made the transition from our 'belt mill' dojang to a serious club with little problems. They had the ability and maturity. Quiet a few surprised me when I first met them, to learn how young they really were.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 2, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> I for one hate the term!  It thrown around to loosely by to many people.  If you do this you are a McDojo/McDojang.
> 
> I understand there is bad product out there!  My son was a Poom belt at 8 and the vitriol that was thrown around was quite thick.  A well known poster on this BBS said his instructor should be slapped.
> 
> ...



I'm sure you will agree, however, that your son is the exception rather than the rule. He is an outstanding athlete with a very unusual dedication to the martial arts.

For contrast, I'll point out several "Black Belts" I've seen come to our Moo Duk Kwan school from others. Specifically, I'll mention one who came from a TKD school in Chicago. He was 12 or 13, and had been a 1st Dan for about a year. Our required forms are palgwae but a couple of us do train the taegeuks as well. He didn't know what forms he had learned. I asked him to show me one and he got about half way through taegeuk 1. He couldn't throw a proper punch. He didn't know the difference between a front stance and a back stance. He couldn't throw any kick other than a front snap kick with anything resembling proper technique. He sparred one our 9 or 10 year old yellow belts and quit after 30 seconds because it hurt (our lower belts do NOT spar with heavy contact, either).

This kid is far more the norm for "black belts" at his age, and based on him, I would consider the school that awarded him his rank a McDojang.

I'm not a fan of baby black belts in general, but I do believe that ages standards should be considered a guideline simply because there ARE exceptions.


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## Gorilla (Mar 2, 2013)

Dirty dog
Started TKD 4-2002 started Tkd @ age 4

1st Poom 7-2005
2nd Poom 1-2007
3rd Poom 10-2010
3rd Dan.   12-2012
He was 4 when he started and will b 16 soon!

The 4 years later was referring to how long I have been posting on this BBS.


Sorry  I was not clear.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 2, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Dirty dog
> 
> Started TKD 4-2002 started Tkd @ age 4
> 
> ...



 I'm not the one who asked about the timeline. I merely pointed out that your son is far from the norm for Dan/Poom ranks. 


But thanks anyway. There are always exceptions (which is why I prefer guidelines rather than rules).


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## Steve (Mar 2, 2013)

Speaking just for myself, it's more a suggestion that many people use the term for any commercial successful school, implying that they must be making sacrifices as far quality.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


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## Gorilla (Mar 2, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm not the one who asked about the timeline. I merely pointed out that your son is far from the norm for Dan/Poom ranks.
> 
> 
> But thanks anyway. There are always exceptions (which is why I prefer guidelines rather than rules).




Sorry...I got confused. It was Chrispillertkd...


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 2, 2013)

Steve said:


> Speaking just for myself, it's more a suggestion that many people use the term for any commercial successful school, implying that they must be making sacrifices as far quality.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2



I know many financially successful school that are in way McDojos. It's not a matter of being financially successful, it's a matter of being financially successful _at the expense of_ producing quality students, IMNSHO.

That doesn't mean every blak belt produced at a non-McDojo is going to be able to walk on water. But it does mean the instructor will be _more_ interested at producing studets who have a good understanding of the art they're teaching and who are physically skilled in general. A McDojo will, as a rule, have very low standards when it comes to both of those areas in order to be able to produce as many paying customers as possible. Quality schools, on the other hand, tend to attract students because of the high standards they have, albeit at a slower pace.

Pax,

Chris


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## Twin Fist (Mar 2, 2013)

his is why people laugh at TKD....




Gorilla said:


> Dirty dog
> Started TKD 4-2002 started Tkd @ age 4
> 
> 1st Poom 7-2005- *THIS MAKES HIM A SEVEN YEAR OLD BB* *and a 2-3 yr bb at that.*
> ...



SMH.....

3rd dan AND a shodan in shotokan?
i dont believe it 
no wonder TKD is a laughing stock


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 2, 2013)

Twin Fist said:


> his is why people laugh at TKD....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more, and I mean no disrespect to gorilla's son who I'm sure trains very hard and is very talented,  but to me fourth dan at eighteen  is just everything thats wrong with tkd rolled into one. I train with a guy who started at four and just got his sixth dan at 38 and I even have issues with that, but 18 I'm speechless. At 18 you are a child, first dan maybe, but fourth.....I can only shake my head in disbelief.


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## Gorilla (Mar 3, 2013)

Ralph...who are you to make judgements...disappointing...

Twin Fist...Whatever! You never disappoint with your drivel!  I posted that truth just to get a rise out of you!


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## Tames D (Mar 3, 2013)

Twin Fist said:


> his is why people laugh at TKD....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gotta love them TKD fanboys.


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## msmitht (Mar 3, 2013)

Check kkw requirements. Believe you must be 21 for 4th dan.  Even that is young. Imagine A 4th dan at age 18 issuing certificates. Totally laughable.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 3, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Ralph...who are you to make judgements...disappointing...
> 
> Twin Fist...Whatever! You never disappoint with your drivel!  I posted that truth just to get a rise out of you!


Its not a judgement, its my opinion. The whole concept of a forum is for people to voice their opinions. In my "opinion" an 18 year old 4th dan in anything makes no sense, and I can assure you I am far from alone on this one. The wider martial arts community regularly questions such young people with high rank. I just hope for the sake of the kkw's credibility that the post above me is correct in that you must be 21 to obtain fouth dan. Still way to young in my opinion, but not as ridiculous as 18.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 3, 2013)

msmitht said:


> Check kkw requirements. Believe you must be 21 for 4th dan.  Even that is young. Imagine A 4th dan at age 18 issuing certificates. Totally laughable.


That would be funny. Heading down the dojang to issue certificates yet you had to ask mum for a lift because you dont have a drivers license yet. And too young to have a celebratory drink with the guy you just promoted. I really hope you're right and it is 21.


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## granfire (Mar 3, 2013)

Twin Fist said:


> his is why people laugh at TKD....
> 
> 
> 
> ...





ralphmcpherson said:


> I couldn't agree more, and I mean no disrespect to gorilla's son who I'm sure trains very hard and is very talented,  but to me fourth dan at eighteen  is just everything thats wrong with tkd rolled into one. I train with a guy who started at four and just got his sixth dan at 38 and I even have issues with that, but 18 I'm speechless. At 18 you are a child, first dan maybe, but fourth.....I can only shake my head in disbelief.





msmitht said:


> Check kkw requirements. Believe you must be 21 for 4th dan.  Even that is young. Imagine A 4th dan at age 18 issuing certificates. Totally laughable.





ralphmcpherson said:


> Its not a judgement, its my opinion. The whole concept of a forum is for people to voice their opinions. In my "opinion" an 18 year old 4th dan in anything makes no sense, and I can assure you I am far from alone on this one. The wider martial arts community regularly questions such young people with high rank. I just hope for the sake of the kkw's credibility that the post above me is correct in that you must be 21 to obtain fouth dan. Still way to young in my opinion, but not as ridiculous as 18.





ralphmcpherson said:


> That would be funny. Heading down the dojang to issue certificates yet you had to ask mum for a lift because you dont have a drivers license yet. And too young to have a celebratory drink with the guy you just promoted. I really hope you're right and it is 21.




yep, up to par.

The not so pretty side of the discussion. 

FWIW, we allow kids of this age to cary guns, to enlist in the armed forces...
but they are too young to 'issue certificates'


How come practitioners of the Art fall for the BB myth? 

As much as I generally respect each of you, this is not one of the reasons.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 3, 2013)

So if I understand this correctly, 18 for fourth dan would mean 22 at fifth dan and 27 you could be sixth dan? Wow, just wow.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 3, 2013)

see? this is exactly what i mean, i am sure the kid is a tough little fighter, but he is not and cannot be worthy of that rank at that age. the emotional maturity required of that rank is simply not going to be there in a baby. 

seven year old bb? thats horse crap 

this situation is everything that is wrong with modern tkd. to put it simply : olympic style

its crap from start to finish


ralphmcpherson said:


> I couldn't agree more, and I mean no disrespect to gorilla's son who I'm sure trains very hard and is very talented,  but to me fourth dan at eighteen  is just everything thats wrong with tkd rolled into one. I train with a guy who started at four and just got his sixth dan at 38 and I even have issues with that, but 18 I'm speechless. At 18 you are a child, first dan maybe, but fourth.....I can only shake my head in disbelief.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 3, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Ralph...who are you to make judgements...disappointing...



he is an adult BB with a LOT of training

like me. Niether of us are parents living vicariously through our kids and believing anything a so called instructor tells us while waiting for us to write another check......


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## Twin Fist (Mar 3, 2013)

sorry gran, someone has to the bag guy who tells the unpopular truth

the truth is that child BB's are a joke and this situation gorilla describes is a travesty. regardless of his son's actual ability, he CANNOT be emotionally ready for BB rank, it isnt possible in a pre-teen

you get that? it just isnt possible

someone has to be willing to call bs on this crap


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## Cyriacus (Mar 3, 2013)

Im hesitant to say anything, because i dont want to pick on a kid. So, ill scoot around the edge of the discussion and say that what criteria you place on being a black belt will vary from place to place.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 3, 2013)

people are waking up to this too. As Ive mentioned previously I am currently crosstraining  in shotokan. One of the first things I noticed was a few white belt kids in the class wearing uniforms with a tkd patch from the tkd school which runs out of the same hall.  Being a tkdist myself I eventually asked the parents why their kids are in a tkd uniform. They told me that their kids started in the tkd class but "the number of young kids wearing black belts sent alarm bells, in fact there was an eleven year old second dan", they told me. One parent  even commented that kids shouldnt get black belts. I think the general community is starting to question kids in black belts and the shotokan school Im training at is starting to profit out of it.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 3, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Im hesitant to say anything, because i dont want to pick on a kid. So, ill scoot around the edge of the discussion and say that what criteria you place on being a black belt will vary from place to place.


Its a hard one, I was also hesitant  to comment for the same reason, but it isnt the kid's fault, they are too young to know any different. They just train hard and get promoted, we cant blame them for not handing the black belt back.  As you say, criteria changes from place to place, it doesnt mean we have to agree with that criteria though.


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## Metal (Mar 3, 2013)

msmitht said:


> Check kkw requirements. Believe you must be 21 for 4th dan.  Even that is young. Imagine A 4th dan at age 18 issuing certificates. Totally laughable.




http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp

See Article 8 for the minimum wait time between ranks and for the age limits. For Poom Holders the minimum age for 4th Dan is indeed 18.




Here in Germany you need to have an examiner/testing-license if you're a member of the National Taekwondo Association and want to coduct belt tests and issue certificates. The German examiner licenses are like this:

License A:

- minimum Age: 40
- minimum Dan: 6th
- can test applicants 5th dan and higher

License B:

- minimum Age: 30
- minimum Dan: 4th
- can test applicants up to 4th dan

License C:

- minimum Age: 21
- minimum Dan: 3rd
- can test applicants up to 1st kup


I think that's a good solution.



Anyway, the whole black belts kiddies thing isn't that much of an issue over here. Of course you always have a few Poom holders at the Dan Promotion tests, but most of the time those are around 13 or 14. Most clubs do testings twice per year, so it usually takes around 6 years to make it to 1st Poom / 1st Dan.

The French even introduced 15 kup grades for kids, so that they can test regularly, but won't reach Poom/Dan too early.


Having a kid starting at 4 and reaching poom grade at the age of 7 is rushing things unnecessarily, IMO.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2013)

granfire said:


> yep, up to par.
> 
> The not so pretty side of the discussion.
> 
> ...



True enough that kids of this age are allowed to join the Armed Forces but they start as recruits and won't gain rank until years and a lot of experience into their service.
Here you can't drive a car on the road until you are 17, once you have passed your test you are still classed by insurance companies as a 'beginner' and will be charged a fortune, the cost doesn't start coming down until you gain age and experience. In many countries it's required that drivers who have just passed their test can't exceed a certain speed and have a large 'P' sign on their vehicle.

We don't carry guns here as such and there's several children here with shotgun licences however no one would be happy to have a child lead out a shooting party.

With a black belt who is going to be in charge of gradings it's down to their experience of handling people, knowing their strengths, their weaknesses, whether they are trying their best etc etc not about whether the instructor can fight or do the best kicks, it's something that comes from experience not the actual training in martial arts which is why most would prefer an older, experienced person conducting testing.


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 3, 2013)

I'm going to carefully step into this thread...

There has, unfortunately, been a paradigm shift in earning a BB.  To illustrate this, here are two examples that I've mentioned before.  The first example is a former member here stating that he had had issued poom belts to as young as 4 years old.  He further stated that he wished the KKW would do away with poom belts altogther and that he saw no issue in a 4 year old child being a black belt.  On the other side of the coin was several Okinawan men that trained with George Mattson Sensei while he visited the country.  All of them wore white belts during the training.  However, they obviously weren't white belts.  Mattson Sensei discovered after the training session that they were all Godan (5th degree BB).  When asked why they weren't wearing their BB, they stated that they just never got around to getting one and that they didn't think a different colored cloth would improved their training.  

So here we see two viewpoints, perhaps on the opposite sides of the issue.  

So this raises some honest questions.  Does little Johnny 'need' to be a BB at age 4 or 7 or 12?  Does littly Johnny need to be a 3rd Dan at 15 or a 'master' at 18?  Is this a carrot to keep the kid interested?  If so, that doesn't speak very highly of the training itself maintaining interest.  Do the parents 'need' little Johnny to be a BB at a young age?  If so, are they feeding little Johnny a fast-food mentality on the arts or are they promoting a life-long pursuit for the sake of the training itself?  

This thread is not going to change the industry...because that is exactly what some segments of the martial arts have become, an industry.  It is not going to change the minds of either side of the issue.  For some, there is too much money invested to change.  For some, there is too much money to be made to change.  For some, it will be a source of continual aggrivation.   For some, it will be a source of continual amusement.  

It is what it is and unfortunately it is the child, imho, that suffers in the long run.


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## jks9199 (Mar 3, 2013)

Folks, things are getting a bit heated & personal here.  Rein it in.  Stick to the topic without looking to make slams on each other.

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite & respectful.

jks9199
MT Asst. Administrator
*


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 3, 2013)

Metal said:


> http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp
> 
> See Article 8 for the minimum wait time between ranks and for the age limits. For Poom Holders the minimum age for 4th Dan is indeed 18.



This is correct.  An 18 yr old can be a 4th Dan in the KKW.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 3, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm going to carefully step into this thread...
> 
> There has, unfortunately, been a paradigm shift in earning a BB.  To illustrate this, here are two examples that I've mentioned before.  The first example is a former member here stating that he had had issued poom belts to as young as 4 years old.  He further stated that he wished the KKW would do away with poom belts altogther and that he saw no issue in a 4 year old child being a black belt.  On the other side of the coin was several Okinawan men that trained with George Mattson Sensei while he visited the country.  All of them wore white belts during the training.  However, they obviously weren't white belts.  Mattson Sensei discovered after the training session that they were all Godan (5th degree BB).  When asked why they weren't wearing their BB, they stated that they just never got around to getting one and that they didn't think a different colored cloth would improved their training.
> 
> ...



BBs issued to children are for the ego of the parents. It is a marketing tool. Once schools started issuing BBs to teens things inevitably spiraled downwards in terms of age requirements. If 18 is ok, why not 16, then why not 12, and now why not 7?   The schools are reacting (sadly) to a society where commitment  and self worth hinges too greatly on reward. But lets not let schools off the hook so easily nor MA systems were central bodies have endorsed this approach. The youth market offers great profit potential. Create a program that makes little Suzy or Raquim a BB in a clearly defined, short period of time is what sells. For the sake of the parents' egos, and the schools' pecuniary interests, we are birthing a generation of MA youths who think they have mastered something that is a life's journey. When I see the arrogance and lack of humility, I feel sorry for them.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 3, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Ralph...who are you to make judgements...disappointing...



Ralph has as much of a right to make a judgement on the topic as you do. You think it's good and have said so, he thinks it's not and has said so. (Your son is exceptional. That doesn't mean making promotion to 4th dan at 18 the norm is a good idea.) What you're really saying is, "Ralph ... who are you to make judgements _that differ from mine_ ... disappointing." 

We all make judgements about how things are run all the time. My point in my previous post was that if you're happy with your son's training and his promotion to 4th dan in a few years then who cares what other people think, not that they don't have a right to think them.

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 3, 2013)

Metal said:


> http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp
> 
> See Article 8 for the minimum wait time between ranks and for the age limits. For Poom Holders the minimum age for 4th Dan is indeed 18.
> 
> ...



If your national organization is affiliated with the KKW then why does it need a "solution" in the first place? 

Pax,

Chris


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## Gorilla (Mar 3, 2013)

Finally a thread that is fun to read....everything I have said in this thread is true!

It's funny both my kids trained with the Spanish Natiomal Team Coach for WKF KARATE yesterday.

It was a great experience...he seemed fine with my kids rank!

They are trained and Coached by an Olympic gold medalist!  She has no problem with there rank.

My kids travel all over the world doing  Martial Arts...they hold BB in two Martial Arts...

These are all facts!  BTW my daughter is a 18year old 3rd degree BB won't be eligible for 4th until 21!

She also holds Shodan Rank in Shotokan Karate!
:flame:


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## Steve (Mar 3, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Its not a judgement, its my opinion. The whole concept of a forum is for people to voice their opinions. In my "opinion" an 18 year old 4th dan in anything makes no sense, and I can assure you I am far from alone on this one. The wider martial arts community regularly questions such young people with high rank. I just hope for the sake of the kkw's credibility that the post above me is correct in that you must be 21 to obtain fouth dan. Still way to young in my opinion, but not as ridiculous as 18.



In your system, right?  I mean, 4th Dan will mean something completely different from one style of martial arts to the next.  In bjj, an 18 year old 2nd Dan would be very odd. But in TKD, I understand its not uncommon.  

I'm not sure many reliable conclusions can be drawn from a community as diverse as "martial arts."

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Gorilla (Mar 3, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Its not a judgement, its my opinion. The whole concept of a forum is for people to voice their opinions. In my "opinion" an 18 year old 4th dan in anything makes no sense, and I can assure you I am far from alone on this one. The wider martial arts community regularly questions such young people with high rank. I just hope for the sake of the kkw's credibility that the post above me is correct in that you must be 21 to obtain fouth dan. Still way to young in my opinion, but not as ridiculous as 18.



21 is the general rule but in certain cases you can get a 4th degree @ 18.The KKW does not have a credibility problem!  Outside of Internet posters!  The organization is doing quite well.  So is the WTF it came off it's most successful Olympics thus far...and has been confirmed as a core Olympic sport thru 2020.

As far as my son getting his 4th degree at 18...all I have said is that he is on track...he does not have it yet!  If his Master see fit he will grant him that rank....

BTW .... I have not seen 4th Dan 18 year old...  So the world has not come crumbling down quite yet!


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## Gorilla (Mar 3, 2013)

Steve a 4th Dan 18 year old in KKW TKD isvery uncommon....you see a few 3rd...

ATC, Terry....have you ever seen a sub-21 4th Dan...most use 21 as the min.....


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 3, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> The KKW does not have a credibility problem!  Outside of Internet posters!



With respect, I would suggest that this opinion is not universally shared.  I know many, including those of master status within the KKW (some pretty high) that would not agree with your opinion.  Conversely, I have seen some that would whole-heartedly agree with your opinion.  I think one should follow the reasoning of each group to see what formed their opinion(s).


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## Gorilla (Mar 3, 2013)

Kong Soo Do...lots of rivalary and many different opinions in any large organization...Democrats an Republicans...need I say more...

We are part of the KKW...if you want a career in KKW Tkd rank becomes important...

Charlie and Kym will do this the rest of their lives and at some point rank becomes important if you are part of the KKW...or any large org...

IT is not about my ego!!!! Wether you like the KKW or not...Charlie/Kym have career plans...and rank will be important...for them!!


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## Makalakumu (Mar 3, 2013)

Imagine a 27 year old man with over twenty years of experience.  He's in the prime of his life and his body is literally at the peak of its physical capability.  I'd wager this man could destroy most black belts.  If you look at professional fighters, they hit their peaks in their careers around this time as well.  It makes sense that sporting TKD has a ranking system that reflects this.  

In other martial arts, there are other things that people learn that require wisdom and experience.  It makes sense that it takes longer to earn high ranks and that it puts the practitioner beyond their physical peak.  In terms of physical ability, I think the young man noted above will kick the older man's ***, but that isn't the point of some martial arts.  

Ultimately, with martial sports, it makes sense to award high achievement as young as possible.  This is when physical high achievement is possible.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Imagine a 27 year old man with over twenty years of experience. He's in the prime of his life and his body is literally at the peak of its physical capability. I'd wager this man could destroy most black belts. If you look at professional fighters, they hit their peaks in their careers around this time as well. It makes sense that sporting TKD has a ranking system that reflects this.
> 
> In other martial arts, there are other things that people learn that require wisdom and experience. It makes sense that it takes longer to earn high ranks and that it puts the practitioner beyond their physical peak. In terms of physical ability, I think the young man noted above will kick the older man's ***, but that isn't the point of some martial arts.
> 
> Ultimately, with martial sports, it makes sense to award high achievement as young as possible. This is when physical high achievement is possible.



You do not, though, always want the fit young fighter to instruct or grade 'ordinary' students. It's common in many sports that the best performer isn't always the best coach/manager. A fit young fighter doesn't need rank,while an instructor would to reassure people he knew what he was talking about.


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## Gorilla (Mar 3, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> You do not, though, always want the fit young fighter to instruct or grade 'ordinary' students. It's common in many sports that the best performer isn't always the best coach/manager. A fit young fighter doesn't need rank,while an instructor would to reassure people he knew what he was talking about.


Some are both athlete and instructor/coach... will have to admit that is very hard one to pull off....never do it at high level tournaments....and the teaching is done mostly in the off season!!!


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## Unreal Combat (Mar 3, 2013)

To me a black belt just means you have learnt the basics of your art, not mastered it. There are some schools that will give them out really easily, regardless of the art. You see some that sell programmes to earn one within a year or two. I've even been offered work by one such school in the past. I declined, I'm not into selling martial arts. You see it alot in Karate and Taekwondo, preying on the popularity of both.

The schools anyone should be looking for is one where the instructor puts his students interests before his own, where he isn't trying to leech cash out of his members at any given chance. I would personally avoid any school that expects me to pay for specific branded equipment that only "they" deem fit for use, and uniforms when one isn't needed (ie: Kickboxing, etc). Or that expects me to pay a subscription fee, annually or monthly to train. If a teacher is worried about the commitment of his students then he should be more worried about why they are not committing to his school. He should be focusing on find ways to encourage them to commit that doesn't involve financial ties.

Personally I think I have trained in some really good classes in my life, met some fantastic teachers (in my opinion), I've never had to pay any more than £4 for a standard training session, regardless of the art, and have never been pressurised into buying anything specific just to train or paying anything more than I need to. It's always be an option at my leisure.

A good school should be focused on the teaching and the interests of the students, not on the money making and interests of the instructors. Schools focused on finance are generally the ones I will always avoid, regardless of their reputation.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 3, 2013)

In a club where I trained and taught, we had two kids start together, at the age of five. Boy and a girl. That was 8 years ago, both are now teenagers. The boy has just done his 2nd Dan, the girl her 1st. Both of them have always trained, but one is more focused on progress than the other. 

This is a school that issues KKW certificates and is teaching the KKW syllabus. These kids might not always win in sport competition, but they know their theory, practical application and mechanics for all areas well enough to show others how to teach those things, and what they do practise is practical and realistic for their size, age and weight. They are also capable of assessing whether something is practical or not, because they understand the principles behind what works.

Some people might view it as fast progress, but it depends on your persective, and the kid in question. These two kids can instruct better than quite a lot of adults I've met - especially when they are dealing with other children. Seeing their standard at the grading, another instructor asked how long they had been training for, and looked shocked at the answer, as many of his 1st Kups at the same grading had only been training for 2 or 3 years.

I believe that instructing should be part of a child's martial education, and just because children are involved in instructing, that doesn't make the school a bad one.

Some schools take the scattergun approach to testing- throw enough people in, and some will pass. Other schools make 100% sure that there is no chance of failure unless you break a leg. I know which camp I'm closer to. If kids go to test knowing their stuff well enough to teach it, then they will shine.

All I can say is that there are some very broad brush strokes being painted in this thread, and not every school working the KKW standard is the same. 

Certainly 4th Dan under 20 is the absolute exception rather than the rule. But in my opinion the number of years to BB is irrelevant. Only the intensity of training is important, and that's something that one can never see on a bulletin board, so these discussions can go back and forth forever. Training intensity does show in the physical result, though.

I've met 2 year BBs with more knowledge and ability than 8 year BB's, and vice versa.  Depends how focused and enquiring the person is.

In my experience of testing to date, those who do not meet the standard at a KKW grading fail. That includes kids.

Gnarlie


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 3, 2013)

Gnarlie said:


> But in my opinion the number of years to BB is irrelevant. Only the intensity of training is important, and that's something that one can never see on a bulletin board, so these discussions can go back and forth forever.



Can't argue with you here, well spoken.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2013)

How intensely though can a five year old train? or a seven year old etc? Eighteen year olds yes of course, we have any number of athletes in many sports that train intensely but children?


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## Markku P (Mar 3, 2013)

Gnarlie said:


> I've met 2 year BBs with more knowledge and ability than 8 year BB's, and vice versa.  Depends how focused and enquiring the person is.
> 
> In my experience of testing to date, those who do not meet the standard at a KKW grading fail. That includes kids.
> 
> Gnarlie



I agree with this


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## Markku P (Mar 3, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> BBs issued to children are for the ego of the parents. It is a marketing tool. Once schools started issuing BBs to teens things inevitably spiraled downwards in terms of age requirements.



I think this is not correct. If kid is training 3-5 years of course he (or she) should get his black belt if instructor feels that way. It has nothing to do do with parents. By the way, I saw in Korea (1985 ) kids who had black belts (1-4 dan) and their technical level was amazing.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2013)

I wouldn't say all parents are pushing to have their children get black belts but over the years I've certainly seen parents try to pressure us into grading their children beyond what they should be. Then again I've also had pressure in Scouting from parents to give as many badges to their sons as possible. My daughter used to compete in show jumping and there were very pushy parents there too. It's something a lot of parents do so they can have boasting rights, it starts with 'my baby was sleeping all through the night aged one week, it goes on to 'my child was walking at six months and reading Dickens at age 2' then continues right through to 'my child is a black belt karate/TKD aged 6'. Happens everywhere and certain places can make a lot of money out of those parents.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 4, 2013)

Markku P said:


> I think this is not correct. If kid is training 3-5 years of course he (or she) should get his black belt if instructor feels that way. It has nothing to do do with parents. By the way, I saw in Korea (1985 ) kids who had black belts (1-4 dan) and their technical level was amazing.



So a kid who is 6 can be a black belt at age 9, because he has trained? if BB only means time spent training, then fine. If means maturity, leadership and responsibility, then a child has no business having one. Excellent technique is only the physical side.


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## msmitht (Mar 5, 2013)

It is true that a 4th poom is possible by 15 but not a 4th dan. Kkw regulations clearly state that you must be 21 in order to test for 4th DAN. The difference is that a 4th poom may not promote anyone to dan/poom level.


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## Gorilla (Mar 5, 2013)

msmitht said:


> It is true that a 4th poom is possible by 15 but not a 4th dan. Kkw regulations clearly state that you must be 21 in order to test for 4th DAN. The difference is that a 4th poom may not promote anyone to dan/poom level.



Not how I read it and not how it has been explained to me! I am open to change my mind? Please provide your source...

If it is the case I fine with that! Just not how I read it...

BTW it is 4th Dan by 18 if you are a 3rd poom before 13....I could be wrong!!!!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> So a kid who is 6 can be a black belt at age 9, because he has trained? if BB only means time spent training, then fine. If means maturity, leadership and responsibility, then a child has no business having one. Excellent technique is only the physical side.


In KKW taekwondo, a first dan/pum represents completing the beginner's course.  In Korea, it takes one year to get to first dan/pum.  

Given the wild variance in the maturity exhibited by adult black belts of varying arts, I don't view maturity, leadership or responsibility as being anywhere near a universal requirement across arts.  Some of those most vociferous about this on MT spew the most vitriolic and hateful posts using the language of a middle schooler while claiming to hold instructor level (fourth dan +) grades.  Also, many who insist on maturity and leadership in a black belt generally are fine with eighteen year olds receiving them.  Eighteen - twenty two year olds are not generally known for their maturity.  

In fact, this is the age of reveling in greater freedom and engaging in all manner of irresponsible behavior before settling into a more adult role.  It is the time of making mistakes and learning from them first hand as a legal adult.  I've seen a lot of kids who are actually very mature between twelve and fifteen who seem to regress between sixteen and twenty, but begin to pull it back together in their early twenties.  This is because the maturity that they had from twelve to fifteen was partly imposed upon them by their parents and teachers.  In their mid teens, kids frequently start pulling away from authority figures and try to establish identities of their own.  They begin to question authority more, and it usually takes them into their mid twenties before they have a maturity that is truly their own.  

High school athletes (this includes MA students) can put on an air of maturity, and in the context of their given sport, be the comparatively mature leader that we associate with a black belt.  But once off of the field or out of the studio, they usually go back to being high school kids.  Which is what they're supposed to be doing.  

Once they mature, they may stick with a martial art or a sport and develop true maturity both in the studio and out.  Most kids in MA programs do what most other high school students do: go to college, the armed forces, or into a trade and stop practicing the art.  A few will come back to it later in life, but for most, their time in the arts is looked back on fondly but is a part of their youth and unlikely to be revisited.  Only a very, very small percentage will actually stick with an art from childhood through college and become a lifetime practitioner.

 So when the insistence on a black belt somehow meaning "more than physical skills" is made, I think people are thinking more in the ideal than the actual.  It may be true in some schools, and perhaps in yours.  But I caution against applying such a standard across all arts, schools and practitioners.


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## msmitht (Mar 5, 2013)

The requirements clearly state that 4th poom is possible by 15. If you are 3rd dan at 15 you may not test until you are 21 for 4th. A fourth poom may convert to dan at age 21 but not test til age 25 for 5th Dan.
Look at the age/time chart for poom/dam requirements on kkw website. 
I learned this at all three FIC i have attended. One in Korea , two in the US. Have chart in course handbook. I am right.


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## msmitht (Mar 5, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Not how I read it and not how it has been explained to me! I am open to change my mind? Please provide your source...
> 
> If it is the case I fine with that! Just not how I read it...
> 
> BTW it is 4th Dan by 18 if you are a 3rd poom before 13....I could be wrong!!!!



It was explained to you incorrectly or you misinterpreted.  Check kkw website. You mist be 21 to reach 4th dan or to have 4th pokm converted. I am right on this one. Checked with Kkw, Usat and my FIC book.


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## Gorilla (Mar 5, 2013)

msmitht said:


> It was explained to you incorrectly or you misinterpreted.  Check kkw website. You mist be 21 to reach 4th dan or to have 4th pokm converted. I am right on this one. Checked with Kkw, Usat and my FIC book.




Reread section 8 again...can't say I agree but I defer!


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## WaterGal (Mar 5, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> For contrast, I'll point out several "Black Belts" I've seen come to our Moo Duk Kwan school from others. Specifically, I'll mention one who came from a TKD school in Chicago. He was 12 or 13, and had been a 1st Dan for about a year. Our required forms are palgwae but a couple of us do train the taegeuks as well. He didn't know what forms he had learned. I asked him to show me one and he got about half way through taegeuk 1. He couldn't throw a proper punch. He didn't know the difference between a front stance and a back stance. He couldn't throw any kick other than a front snap kick with anything resembling proper technique. He sparred one our 9 or 10 year old yellow belts and quit after 30 seconds because it hurt (our lower belts do NOT spar with heavy contact, either).
> 
> This kid is far more the norm for "black belts" at his age, and based on him, I would consider the school that awarded him his rank a McDojang.



That's the norm for kids who went to "black belt mill" schools with bad training and no standards, sure.  But not for kids that studied somewhere decent.

In my experience, you can teach _any_ reasonably dedicated 10-year old (in decent health, with no disability) to bust out all 8 Taegeuk forms accurately and with enough power to make their sleeve "pop", do some tolerable medium-contact sparring against opponents their size, and do some decent jump spin kicks.

I don't even know how they fill up 2-3 years of training if they're not teaching those things.  What do they do all class?  Play dodgeball?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> How intensely though can a five year old train? or a seven year old etc? Eighteen year olds yes of course, we have any number of athletes in many sports that train intensely but children?



Most schools that conform to the "McDojo" model have a tiny tigers/little dragons/little ninjas program, which is what five year olds are generally in.  Personally, I feel taht those programs should have specific belts and patches that recognize the child's achievement without mixing it with the regular program.  Personally, I don't care if a five year old has a black belt.  

Five years ago, I did, but at this point, I simply am willing to accept that school owners will make unsound decisions and that those decisions are theirs to live with.  Getting upset about is simply inducing stress in one's self while such school owners continue to do what they do regardless of our feelings.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 6, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Most schools that conform to the "McDojo" model have a tiny tigers/little dragons/little ninjas program, which is what five year olds are generally in.  Personally, I feel taht those programs should have specific belts and patches that recognize the child's achievement without mixing it with the regular program.  Personally, I don't care if a five year old has a black belt.
> 
> Five years ago, I did, but at this point, I simply am willing to accept that school owners will make unsound decisions and that those decisions are theirs to live with.  Getting upset about is simply inducing stress in one's self while such school owners continue to do what they do regardless of our feelings.



Good point. Personally, I do not get mad; although, I have a dislike for it philosophically.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 6, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Most schools that conform to the "McDojo" model have a tiny tigers/little dragons/little ninjas program, which is what five year olds are generally in.  Personally, I feel taht those programs should have specific belts and patches that recognize the child's achievement without mixing it with the regular program.



I'm a bit lost as to whether you think that clubs that have these programmes are McDojo or not.

I wouldn't consider our club a McDojo (then again, would someone who everyone else considers to be running a McDojo recognise it?  Hmm, that's gonna fester), but we have a class for 3-6 year olds.  They do get different tags/stripes/belts to the main children class and adults and they don't get Kup certificates.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Good point. Personally, I do not get mad; although, I have a dislike for it philosophically.



As do I.  One of the issues is that many schools provide a martial arts themed family/childrens activity.  Putting aside the belt issue, positive things are had in such programs.  Members are enjoying an activity that promotes cardio health, muscle tone, and flexibility, and kids are in an environment that stresses respect and good manners, as well as building confidence, self esteem, and the many non-martial benefits that such schools often highlight in their literature.

If it were not for the ingrained concept (and indeed, sometimes irrational attachment that people have to it) of a black belt representing Liam Neeson's character in the Taken films, I wouldn't care about black belts on five year olds either.  But in the US, it sends mixed signals.


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## dancingalone (Mar 6, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As do I.  One of the issues is that many schools provide a martial arts themed family/childrens activity.  Putting aside the belt issue, positive things are had in such programs.  Members are enjoying an activity that promotes cardio health, muscle tone, and flexibility, and kids are in an environment that stresses respect and good manners, as well as building confidence, self esteem, and the many non-martial benefits that such schools often highlight in their literature.
> 
> If it were not for the ingrained concept (and indeed, sometimes irrational attachment that people have to it) of a black belt representing Liam Neeson's character in the Taken films, I wouldn't care about black belts on five year olds either.  But in the US, it sends mixed signals.



I have a explanatory flyer that I will perhaps share here when I am content with it that I include in our new student packet.  It sets forth our position on what a black belt means within our school and offers a few other commonly held ideas across arts and nations to give further perspective to the subject.

I like the poom belt and I also like streamlined curricula for children.  I also think it's a good idea to openly differentiate what the kids and adults learn and practice if your school offers that.


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## Gorilla (Mar 27, 2013)

I have gone to 2 tournaments in the last 2 weeks probably 2000 athletes.  The reputation of the art seems to be holding up!


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## StudentCarl (Mar 28, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In KKW taekwondo, a first dan/pum represents completing the beginner's course.  In Korea, it takes one year to get to first dan/pum.
> 
> Given the wild variance in the maturity exhibited by adult black belts of varying arts, I don't view maturity, leadership or responsibility as being anywhere near a universal requirement across arts.  Some of those most vociferous about this on MT spew the most vitriolic and hateful posts using the language of a middle schooler while claiming to hold instructor level (fourth dan +) grades.  Also, many who insist on maturity and leadership in a black belt generally are fine with eighteen year olds receiving them.  Eighteen - twenty two year olds are not generally known for their maturity.
> 
> ...



QFT!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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