# Whips and Chains



## Zepp (Dec 8, 2003)

No, no, this isn't a thread about anyone's love life.   

While whips aren't exactly common "street" weapons, it seems to me that a long chain might be.  I was curious, does anyone practice defenses against these types of weapons?  If you do, how do you go about it?  Got any recommended tactics for someone who has to deal with a chain-wielding attacker?

How similar is fighting someone with a whip to someone with a chain?

Any information or clever insight is welcome. :asian:


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## arnisador (Dec 8, 2003)

I think many people--myself included--don't practice as much against flexible weapons as they should.

For the whip, see also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4909


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## Jay Bell (Dec 8, 2003)

I studied a bit of chain with Vlad at his seminar here not too long ago.  Very interesting work.

The greatest thing about chain training --  It's an honest weapon.  If you move wrong or weak, you get hit.  You can't cheat a chain.

We worked a great deal in disarming chain attacks as well as learning to wrap limbs and control with the chain.  It's interesting how simple, natural body movement can take a chain moving at very high speeds and turn it instantly to slow motion.


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## Brian King (Dec 9, 2003)

The Vlad seminar was fun wasnt it! 

To start to understand the chain get a short length (about 4 feet) not to thick but not that real then stuff.  It should have some weight to it. Grab it on one end and just start to move it around a little. Now and then poke at it with your free hand or a foot or leg. Watch what happens to the running end when you interfere with the momentum and trajectory. (Warning chain is a honest partner, if your face is open the running end or some other part will find it. Be light on you feet!) Once you begin to get this understanding start to let it wrap an arm or leg or any other body part. Then learn how to release the wrap (return with interest). This is an excellent way to learn wave work.

You can have a partner hit you with the chain while you stand there with your arms out at 90degrees. They shouldnt swing hard or fast at this point. The idea is just to let you get used to some of the chains characteristics. The person hitting you with the chain should be leaning distancing and both overhand and underhand swings Soon you learn how you can control the wrap and use it for take away and/or return strikes. 

For Systema (and likely many other arts) by doubling the chain while it is laying on your open palm(so that you have about a foot hanging from either end of your hand), you can start practicing your open handed figure eights and other open palm hits while adding movement. Hint if you dont move your new honest training partner will slap you to remind you!

The chain is different from other flexible tools in that it changes trajectory and force anytime any of the links are affected. It is unpredictable that way. With most other flexible tools you can gauge where the trajectory will be after its being affected.

When getting hit by the whip the pain is a different kind than say punch or stick. The whip wraps around causing pain or a cut everywhere it hits. It is usually not as deep as a stick and doesnt last as long. It is more shocking than anything else. (Short whip) 

See you on the mat soon
Friends
Brian


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## OULobo (Dec 9, 2003)

One of my instructors used to say that the reason he disliked flexible weapons was the unpredictablility in recoil from striking and the ability to have your weapon wrapped up in hurled clothing. He once told me to toss my jacket at a chain. It worked pretty well, because it stole the chain's momentum so I could get in for a strike with fist or knife, but we only trained a few times against the flexibles. My $.02.


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## Trent (Dec 9, 2003)

Silat uses the sarong quite extensively as a flexible weapon with many methods to strike, throw, bind and otherwise entangle your opponent.  The use of the weapon in an offensive manner is stressed with defenses being revealed as offensive concepts, methods and techniques are practiced and used on an opponent.

I think it is very interesting material indeed.  The recoil of a flexible weapon is unpredictable without extensive practice.  A stick is a much simpler weapon.  Also, the type of material that constitutes the flexible weapon will obviously determine the nature of the recoil or techniques used.

Against someone with a whip or chain who was using it to simply swing at the defender for a striking implement, a good way to deal with it would be to time the weapon's path and rush the attacker to smother the weapon.  If you have some skill with flexible weapons they just gave you a weapon to use against themselves and even have their hand already attached and begging to be entangled.  Since most folks don't study flexible weapons with any depth, it's a high probability you just turned the tables dramatically.

And isn't that what martial arts is supposed to do?


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## Zepp (Dec 10, 2003)

Does anyone know of any idiot-proofed chains that would be safer to practice with than metal?


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## Trent (Dec 15, 2003)

If you don't wish to get some scrapes and bruises from practicing with chains try the following:

Take a 3/8" thick piece of nylon cord and tie a knot in it every 3" until you have a the length you require.

That should offer enough flexibility, weight and grip to simulate a decent chain.  There will be a large differrence between that and the actual chain however, and for exactly the reasons you wish to avoid it.  But it's should be a good place to start for some idea of what it would be like.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 23, 2003)

training in traditional weapons, we do some good training against steel whip, and chain whip as well. Some scary techniques that have to be puuled off perfectly in order to be effective, but we do quite a bit of reality based training against various flexable weapons. Not to mention or two or three man sets using them.

7sm


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