# USTC Lawsuite against Kukkiwon



## terryl965 (Feb 26, 2011)

PRESS RELEASE

It is with deep regret that U.S. Kukkiwon announces that we have filed
suit against Kukkiwon for a breach of contract. U.S. Kukkiwon
President Sang Chul Lee exhausted many attempts to reach an amicable
agreement with current Kukkiwon President Won Sik Kang, but to no
avail. No progress at an agreement was made.

Before Kukkiwon became a Special Organization under an act by the
government of Korea that came under the Taekwondo Promotion Act, the
former President and Board of Directors of Kukkiwon announced the
formation of a Kukkiwon Overseas Branch Program and invited any
interested parties from around the world to apply and to appear in
Korea to make the case for their selection. U.S. Kukkiwon President
Sang Chul Lee was successful in getting recognized as the Kukkiwon
Overseas Branch in the USA. Further, there is a signed and binding
contract between Kukkiwon and U.S. Kukkiwon President Sang Chul Lee.
When Kukkiwons status in Korea changed from a Private Organization to
a Special Organization it inherited all of the assets and liabilities
of the former Kukkiwon administration, including the signed and
binding contract agreement with U.S. Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon President Won
Sik Kang dismissed the contract and is seeking to start his own KMOS
program that is similar to the former Kukkiwon Overseas Branch Program
of his predecessor.

Mr. Sang Chul Lee has had numerous discussions with Kukkiwon President
Kang, including having flown to Korea for a face-to-face meeting to
discuss this matter, and a telephone conference call as a final
attempt to salvage the contract agreement with Kukkiwon.

In January 2011 President allowed a Kukkiwon Instructor Seminar to
take place in Los Angeles, CA even though this is in direct
contravention of stipulations in the binding contract agreement
between Kukkiwon and U.S. Kukkiwon. U.S. Kukkiwon even had a legal
Cease and Desist order served before the seminar took place. This
order was ignored and the seminar did take place as scheduled.

U.S. Kukkiwon has worked, in good faith, to try to resolve this matter
and to be able to work under the conditions of its signed and binding
agreement with Kukkiwon to help to promote the Martial Arts aspects of
Taekwondo worldwide. Unfortunately, this matter has now been submitted
to a State Court of Colorado and will go forward unless there is a
settlement reached between Kukkiwon and U.S. Kukkiwon that will allow
U.S. Kukkiwon to work under the terms of the contract that was
negotiated and signed in good faith by the Kukkiwon President who is
the predecessor to current Kukkiwon President Won Sik Kang.


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## goingd (Feb 26, 2011)

Where was this originally posted?


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## terryl965 (Feb 26, 2011)

It was from TKD.Net


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## Archtkd (Feb 26, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> It was from TKD.Net


 
Very interesting. Isn't Puunui the legal counsel for USTC? It would be interesting to hear his comment about this, but that is not likely happen given that the matter is now in litigation.


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## leadleg (Feb 27, 2011)

Is this lawsuit against the government of Korea,since the KKW is now a govt. agency? Also was the US KKW supposed to have a monopoly on KKW related events?


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## terryl965 (Feb 27, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Is this lawsuit against the government of Korea,since the KKW is now a govt. agency? Also was the US KKW supposed to have a monopoly on KKW related events?


 
I myself do not know, I found the article and thought I would post to get people views on it...


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## Archtkd (Feb 27, 2011)

Here's the barebones info on the case: We'd have to see the actual complaint for details. The attorney listed for USTC is Richard Lewis Tegmeier of  Tegmeier Bednerski Law Firm LLC (www.tegtmeierlawoffice.com). Please note that's not Puunui, who is listed as USTC's legal counsel, on USTC's web site.

Colorado Court Database

Case Number:     2011CV989(District)           Date Filed:     2011-01-27

United States Taekwondo Committee Et Al Vs. Kukkiwon
Breach of Contract
Summary

Judge:      Larry Edward Schwartz 
Court:       El Paso County 
Division:       5 
Appealed:        

Case Status

Open 

Judge or Magistrate
Name      BAR Number 
Larry Edward Schwartz      6564 

Agency
Agency      Agency Case      Tkt/Summons Nbr      Arrest Nbr 

Related Cases
Location      Case Number      Related Reason      Name 

Participants
Litigant      Attorney 
Kukkiwon       
Defendant 1       
DOB:        
Gender: Unknown       
Race:        
United States Taekwondo Committee      Tegtmeier, Richard Lewis 
Plaintiff 1      Role: Privately Retained Attorney  
DOB:       BAR: 2544 
Gender: Unknown      Primary Attorney: Y 
Race:        
Us Kukkiwon Inc      Tegtmeier, Richard Lewis 
Plaintiff 2      Role: Privately Retained Attorney  
DOB:       BAR: 2544 
Gender: Unknown      Primary Attorney: Y 
Race:        
Lee, Sang Chul      Tegtmeier, Richard Lewis 
Plaintiff 3      Role: Privately Retained Attorney  
DOB:       BAR: 2544 
Gender: Unknown      Primary Attorney: Y 
Race:        

Charges
Count      Date      Details 

Scheduled Events
Date      Time      Details 
            Status:  
            Judge: Larry Edward Schwartz 
            Room: 5 
05/27/2011      5:00 PM      Review 

Proceedings
Date      Code      Description  
01/27/2011      COVR      Civil Case Cover Sheet 
01/27/2011      CMPL      Complaint 

Judgments
#      Date      Details  

Bond Information
ID      Details 

Financial Summary

Un-Assigned Rcp's      Received 
-----------------      -------- 
Civil Action Tax      $1.00 
Civil Filing Fee      $90.00 
Court Security Cash Fund      $5.00 
Justice Center Cash Fund      $68.00 
Stabilization Fund - USER Fee      $60.00 
Total Un-Assigned      $224.00


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## msmitht (Feb 27, 2011)

Wow. I can't believe that the ustc is going to really follow through though. It would end badly for them. They do not control more than 70% of the schools promoting kkw tkd. Dunno what kind of deal there was but am confident the kkw will either win or settle. The us kkw can not claim a monopoly on all kkw events. If they win then everyone would have to go through them for certs. As far as I know you can still go through the usat for certs and I just applied online for my students poom/dan last night at home.


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## ATC (Feb 27, 2011)

Can I get a link please? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks.


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## leadleg (Feb 27, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Wow. I can't believe that the ustc is going to really follow through though. It would end badly for them. They do not control more than 70% of the schools promoting kkw tkd. Dunno what kind of deal there was but am confident the kkw will either win or settle. The us kkw can not claim a monopoly on all kkw events. If they win then everyone would have to go through them for certs. As far as I know you can still go through the usat for certs and I just applied online for my students poom/dan last night at home.


 I believe the USTC had nothing to lose,they were very active in trying to keep the govt. out of the KKW. When the change of guard happened we saw the US KKW losing the right to process KKW certificates. Hopefully the KKW will not take any revenge on all those induviduals who signed the petitions for the USTC.
 I am guessing getting a monopoly on KKW certification and events was exactly what the USTC was after.
 We will have to wait and see, but I doubt that we will be seeing anything regarding KKW events happening within the USTC from here on out, possibly including the Hamandang.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Wow. I can't believe that the ustc is going to really follow through though. It would end badly for them. They do not control more than 70% of the schools promoting kkw tkd. Dunno what kind of deal there was but am confident the kkw will either win or settle. The us kkw can not claim a monopoly on all kkw events. *If they win then everyone would have to go through them for certs. As far as I know you can still go through the usat for certs and I just applied online for my students poom/dan last night at home.*




I think it would be wise if your stick with what you know, instead of what you presume. The lawsuit between USTC and Kukkiwon has nothing to do with 70% of anything or having to go through USTC only for Kukkiwon poom or dan certification. That was never the case, even when the contract was in effect. Personally, I think it is a lack of respect, with a little ignorance and ingratitude mixed in.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> It would be interesting to hear his comment about this, but that is not likely happen given that the matter is now in litigation.




I think this is just one prong of a multi pronged spear aimed at President Kang, and it isn't even the main prong. There are a lot of things going on at the moment.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2011)

leadleg said:


> We will have to wait and see, but I doubt that we will be seeing anything regarding KKW events happening within the USTC from here on out, possibly including the Hamandang.




Wrong again. But that is what happens when people voice opinions based on less than accurate or no information. I will say this: One of the founding principles upon which USTC was created was to give American borns an opportunity to receive Kukkiwon training, certification and other opportunities that they may not have had in the past. Those who are opposed to USTC are opposed to this goal. You can see it in the latest Kukkiwon Instructor Course in California for example.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2011)

leadleg said:


> I believe the USTC had nothing to lose,they were very active in trying to keep the govt. out of the KKW.




And by the way, that issue is still not resolved, the constitutionality or legality of the law that changed the corporate structure of the Kukkiwon.


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## dowan50 (Feb 27, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Wow. I can't believe that the ustc is going to really follow through though. It would end badly for them. They do not control more than 70% of the schools promoting kkw tkd. Dunno what kind of deal there was but am confident the kkw will either win or settle. The us kkw can not claim a monopoly on all kkw events. If they win then everyone would have to go through them for certs. As far as I know you can still go through the usat for certs and I just applied online for my students poom/dan last night at home.



The USTC has never once stated that they seek monopoly on anything or even want or seek to be the NGB which is implied by your 70% comment. USTC seeks to build an environment that promotes KKW education. They wish to have both family and a revival so to speak of bringing back many seniors and their students who stopped participating on many levels since the fall of the USTU. The whole purpose of the Hanmadang is to be a large field that gives people of all ages, ranks and abilities motivation to train and share.

The USKKW was just another service to be offered by the USTC as a convenience to its members. The Masters teaching license seminars were also being done at cost to make it easier to be more inclusive and to possibly give some hope of resolving the issue helping those who trained for decades under US GM's who charged for KKW certification but never gave it. In addition to that a welcoming atmosphere was being pursued to help our ITF friends to pursue a course of education and certification under KKW if they so desired.

The last time I looked USAT was still saying they assist with KKW filings for a fee but no longer imply that they can issue them. I wonder if they are still continuing to issue Dan Certs of their own? I was disappointed to see a 4th Dan skipped to 7th Dan before he had received his 5th Dan but frankly any organization has the freedom to print any paper they want. It will be interesting to see how the next two years go.


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## leadleg (Feb 27, 2011)

puunui said:


> Wrong again. But that is what happens when people voice opinions based on less than accurate or no information. I will say this: One of the founding principles upon which USTC was created was to give American borns an opportunity to receive Kukkiwon training, certification and other opportunities that they may not have had in the past. Those who are opposed to USTC are opposed to this goal. You can see it in the latest Kukkiwon Instructor Course in California for example.


 I certainally have no axe to grind with the USTC, but suing the KKW is certainally not going to be over quickly and I am betting the plaintif will not be sending their instructors to the USTC until the issue is resolved.
 What is the insiuation about the latest KKW course? Also was there not another instructor course last year in Cali. not put on by USTC?
 I am all for more KKW courses in the US but why just the USTC?


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## leadleg (Feb 27, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> The USTC has never once stated that they seek monopoly on anything or even want or seek to be the NGB which is implied by your 70% comment. USTC seeks to build an environment that promotes KKW education. They wish to have both family and a revival so to speak of bringing back many seniors and their students who stopped participating on many levels since the fall of the USTU. The whole purpose of the Hanmadang is to be a large field that gives people of all ages, ranks and abilities motivation to train and share.
> 
> The USKKW was just another service to be offered by the USTC as a convenience to its members. The Masters teaching license seminars were also being done at cost to make it easier to be more inclusive and to possibly give some hope of resolving the issue helping those who trained for decades under US GM's who charged for KKW certification but never gave it. In addition to that a welcoming atmosphere was being pursued to help our ITF friends to pursue a course of education and certification under KKW if they so desired.
> 
> The last time I looked USAT was still saying they assist with KKW filings for a fee but no longer imply that they can issue them. I wonder if they are still continuing to issue Dan Certs of their own? I was disappointed to see a 4th Dan skipped to 7th Dan before he had received his 5th Dan but frankly any organization has the freedom to print any paper they want. It will be interesting to see how the next two years go.


Are you talking about a 4th to 7th KKW certification or one of those USAT certificates?
`Who signs the USAT certificates?
 Why do you say the next two years?


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## andyjeffries (Feb 28, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> The last time I looked USAT was still saying they assist with KKW filings for a fee but no longer imply that they can issue them. I wonder if they are still continuing to issue Dan Certs of their own? I was disappointed to see a 4th Dan skipped to 7th Dan before he had received his 5th Dan but frankly any organization has the freedom to print any paper they want.



Is this the USAT Special Testing you are referring to?  If so, I thought the Kukkiwon were the ones examining/certifying the people then?

Also, is this a general problem you have with skip dans or a problem with a skip dan jump of so many grades?  For example, you said "before he had received his 5th Dan" - would you have had a problem if he was 5th Dan jumping to 7th Dan?


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## Master Dan (Feb 28, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Are you talking about a 4th to 7th KKW certification or one of those USAT certificates?
> `Who signs the USAT certificates?
> Why do you say the next two years?
> 
> ...


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## miguksaram (Feb 28, 2011)

Perhaps I'm being anal about this, but just for the record the USKKW is a separate entity from USTC.  While they may share many of the same officers, they are two different organizations.

To my knowledge the USTC has never made claim, either externally or internally, that they hoped to monopolize all KKW activities in the US.  Their goals have been presented from the beginning of their conception; to help educate the world about the culture, history, and true value of Taekwondo as a Martial Art.  They have done this through hosting one World Hanmadang, hosting several FIC seminars, going on hosting their 3rd National Hanmadang and have sponsored two oversea trips to Korea.  

This particular engagement is between USKKW and KKW and not the USTC.  Regardless of the outcome, USTC will still be a thriving organization which will still provide top training and events to Taekwondo-in and other martial artists in the US.


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## puunui (Feb 28, 2011)

leadleg said:


> I certainally have no axe to grind with the USTC, but suing the KKW is certainally not going to be over quickly and I am betting the plaintif will not be sending their instructors to the USTC until the issue is resolved.




And you know this because of what? Because you are actively involved in the process and therefore you have personal knowledge? Or maybe you have inside information given to you by someone actively involved in the process? Or are you merely speculating on something that you know absolutely nothing about? 

This is why American borns can never hope to lead their own WTF Member National Association. Here you have an organization dedicated to improving the situation of American borns as far as Kukkiwon education and certification is concerned, and you, an American born, still feel the need to criticize that organization. That kind of thinking is what brought down the USTU and made USAT. USTC is trying to and did help you and many other Americans. I would think the least that you could or would do is show a little respect and public support for really the only organization out there who is truly attempting to improve the quality of the American Taekwondoin experience through the Kukkiwon. Or if that is asking too much, then perhaps you could or would listen and hopefully learn, the old two ears and one mouth thing. Instead, you are closing both ears and using your one mouth to bite the hand that fed you.




leadleg said:


> What is the insiuation about the latest KKW course? Also was there not another instructor course last year in Cali. not put on by USTC?



There is no insinuation of anything. There was a big discussion about the most recent Kukkiwon Instructor Course in Los Angeles. If you only look at the post directly in front of your face, then you will fail to understand a great many things. Put another way, if a student is learning Taeguek 3 and you are covering the inside middle block part, do you assume that the student already understands inside middle block from Taeguek 1 Jang, or do you have to explain all over again like it was new material? 




leadleg said:


> I am all for more KKW courses in the US but why just the USTC?



Why not?


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## andyjeffries (Feb 28, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> First it was promoted to be a KKW certified test in Vegas and suposably people did pay the KKW fees to USAT but later only USAT certificates were issued.



I didn't know that, I thought it was Kukkiwon sanctioned and they issued the certificates (but regretted it).  I didn't know that the certificates received were USAT ones.  Very interesting...


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## puunui (Feb 28, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> First it was promoted to be a KKW certified test in Vegas and suposably people did pay the KKW fees to USAT but later only USAT certificates were issued.




That is incorrect. I know practitioners who got their Kukkiwon certificate from the US Open special test. There was a big delay though for various reasons. One reason was that the candidates were supposed to submit all of the dan fees for each dan skipped, and USAT only submitted the fee for the highest dan requested and kept the rest. Things like that. Also, some people flunked or were approved for dans less than the requested dan, and there was issues surrounding that. From the Kukkiwon's perspective, the US Open promotion test was a fiasco, something that hopefully is never repeated. USAT lost a lot of credibility because of that special test.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> Also, some people flunked or were approved for dans less than the requested dan, and there was issues surrounding that.



In this situation, did USAT issue certificates instead?  What I mean is, if someone went for KKW 7th Dan but only passed at 6th Dan, did they get a USAT 7th Dan certificate and a KKW 6th Dan?

I wonder if that's what Master Dan is thinking of?


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## d1jinx (Feb 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> That is incorrect. I know practitioners who got their Kukkiwon certificate from the US Open special test. There was a big delay though for various reasons. One reason was that the candidates were supposed to submit all of the dan fees for each dan skipped, and USAT only submitted the fee for the highest dan requested and kept the rest. Things like that. Also, some people flunked or were approved for dans less than the requested dan, and there was issues surrounding that. From the Kukkiwon's perspective, the US Open promotion test was a fiasco, something that hopefully is never repeated. USAT lost a lot of credibility because of that special test.


 
To add to Puunui's statement WHICH IS CORRECT,

USAT DID NOT ISSUE ANY USAT DAN CERTIFICATES at this test. Part of this whole thing was to get USAT to stop doing that. In fact, when asked if someone who tested could get a USAT DAN cert also, they were told it cost more, in addition to what they already paid. BUT No USAT cert was given to anyone who tested freely.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 28, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> To add to Puunui's statement WHICH IS CORRECT,
> 
> USAT DID NOT ISSUE ANY USAT DAN CERTIFICATES at this test. Part of this whole thing was to get USAT to stop doing that. In fact, when asked if someone who tested could get a USAT DAN cert also, they were told it cost more, in addition to what they already paid. BUT No USAT cert was given to anyone who tested freely.



Thanks d1jinx.  I wonder where Master Dan got his information from?  Hopefully he'll post soon.  It makes no difference to me, just interested.


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## Master Dan (Feb 28, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Is this the USAT Special Testing you are referring to? If so, I thought the Kukkiwon were the ones examining/certifying the people then?
> 
> Also, is this a general problem you have with skip dans or a problem with a skip dan jump of so many grades? For example, you said "before he had received his 5th Dan" - would you have had a problem if he was 5th Dan jumping to 7th Dan?
> 
> Its more complex first it is legitimate time in rank. You just tested for 5th Dan under your GM not even recieving the cert from KKW and then USAT promotes ulimited skip dan come to vegas go around your master and issues a 7th Dan? in a literal sense that is a triple skip Dan? I do not believe KKW was in total agreement with USAT MAC in conducting the test hence many KKW certs were not issued that were paid for even while many did not pass the test that is different issue. First and formost there are specific good reasons for skip dan very detail in KKW rules but non just promoting any junior rank leaving masters to promote. The USTC was also reasuring they were not promoting that trend of thought but wanting to help those who possibly had been treated unfairly by masters charging but nevery issuing KKW certifiication.


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## Master Dan (Feb 28, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> In this situation, did USAT issue certificates instead? What I mean is, if someone went for KKW 7th Dan but only passed at 6th Dan, did they get a USAT 7th Dan certificate and a KKW 6th Dan?
> 
> I wonder if that's what Master Dan is thinking of?
> 
> ...


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## terryl965 (Feb 28, 2011)

Well it is ti,e to add fuel to the flier jere, USAT did issue rank from the US Open special testing and that was to those that did not pass there little test for there KKW rank. I will also add for those not getting there skip dan also recieved a USAT rank for that skip dan. I know of two individual that have them on there wall at there school and are proud to say they was able to jump four grades in an afternoon.

I surely hope the KKW will host alot of training camps and I hope that the USTC keeps going forward with promoting everything they do, the only thing I hope stops is the USAT from running all over the place like they do. 

Last thing is this puunui seem to know alot and so does Master Dan but I know I know USAT issued rank from USAT and have seen them with my own eyes.


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## Master Dan (Feb 28, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Well it is ti,e to add fuel to the flier jere, USAT did issue rank from the US Open special testing and that was to those that did not pass there little test for there KKW rank. I will also add for those not getting there skip dan also recieved a USAT rank for that skip dan. I know of two individual that have them on there wall at there school and are proud to say they was able to jump four grades in an afternoon.
> 
> I surely hope the KKW will host alot of training camps and I hope that the USTC keeps going forward with promoting everything they do, the only thing I hope stops is the USAT from running all over the place like they do.
> 
> ...


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## leadleg (Feb 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> And you know this because of what? Because you are actively involved in the process and therefore you have personal knowledge? Or maybe you have inside information given to you by someone actively involved in the process? Or are you merely speculating on something that you know absolutely nothing about?
> 
> It really is not hard to come to the conclusion that suing the KKW is not going to help the USTC with the current leadership,whether you say US KKW or USTC it really will not matter to the president of the KKW. If you have some inside knowledge to the contrary then step up,otherwise yours is conjecture also.
> 
> ...


 
The USTC does not need to have a monopoly on the KKW,all TKDoin should have access and any org who wishes to sponsor an event should be alowed to ask.This is the kind of thing that looks like a grab for power,locking up the certification process or educational process.
I do not have any inside information it is only my opinion,but the history of Korean politics is at play here and you can make assumptions based on history.


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## puunui (Feb 28, 2011)

leadleg said:


> The USTC does not need to have a monopoly on the KKW,all TKDoin should have access and any org who wishes to sponsor an event should be alowed to ask.This is the kind of thing that looks like a grab for power,locking up the certification process or educational process.
> I do not have any inside information it is only my opinion,but the history of Korean politics is at play here and you can make assumptions based on history.




So this is a Korean, and therefore racist thing for you then, even though USTC President Sang Lee is an American citizen, as are all of the other officers of USTC.


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## puunui (Feb 28, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> I am certianly not the only senior or GM that has that opinion while they do not wish to lower thier themselves by having thier name mentioned here.




So you are a Grandmaster and a senior then?


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## leadleg (Feb 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> So this is a Korean, and therefore racist thing for you then, even though USTC President Sang Lee is an American citizen, as are all of the other officers of USTC.


Ha, thats funny trying to play that on me,racist,I am far from being racist. I am talking Korean politics because that is what has happened to the USTC. The current KKW president is taking the global ideas of the previous administration,who I believe got the ideas from President Lee and the USTC. Was it not the USTC and president Lee who came up with the US KKW? Was it not the USTC that was a big player in trying to stop the govt.takeover of the KKW? Isn't that the reason for this whole lawsuit mess.It reminds me of when the govt there decided it did not want President Kim to remain in power and framed him,or the way the elections for the WTF presidency was carried out,last time and the election before that when they went after Dr.Cha Sok Park.....it goes on and on,thats the history I'm talking about. 
You went after one of the posters here because he did not capitalise KKW and yet you have no problem with them being sued. 
For the most part I have been behind most of the things you talk about,but when once in a while I disagree you accuse me of being disrespectful or now racist, I have an opinion on what may come of this lawsuit,I spoke about it,do not make it out to be something its not.


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## Archtkd (Feb 28, 2011)

Who has  actually read the entire plaintiff's complaint relating to this thread -- the breach of contract  lawsuit that the US Kukkiwon has filed against its estranged mothership in Korea?


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## andyjeffries (Mar 1, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Who has  actually read the entire plaintiff's complaint relating to this thread -- the breach of contract  lawsuit that the US Kukkiwon has filed against its estranged mothership in Korea?



Is it available online anywhere?  I've had a bit of a Google search, but can't find anything.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 1, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> _Also, is this a general problem you have with skip dans or a problem with a skip dan jump of so many grades?_
> 
> Its more complex first it is legitimate time in rank. You just tested for 5th Dan under your GM not even recieving the cert from KKW and then USAT promotes ulimited skip dan come to vegas go around your master and issues a 7th Dan? in a literal sense that is a triple skip Dan?



OK, so it was more the fact that often the time requirement was skipped, skipping so many dans and going around your master/grandmaster that you had a problem with than dan skipping per se.

As the recent recipient of a skip dan I am aware some people don't like the idea of skipping dan grades and I just like the opportunity to discuss why so that I can understand their feelings better.


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## miguksaram (Mar 1, 2011)

leadleg said:


> The USTC does not need to have a monopoly on the KKW,all TKDoin should have access and any org who wishes to sponsor an event should be alowed to ask.This is the kind of thing that looks like a grab for power,locking up the certification process or educational process.
> I do not have any inside information it is only my opinion,but the history of Korean politics is at play here and you can make assumptions based on history.



You are right, the USTC does not need to have a monopoly on KKW, nor does it seek it.  It has always been willing to work with USAT and other TKD orgs.  USTC extended their hand in friendship from the beginning and USAT slapped it down with empty promises of support for the World Hanmadang, trying to ban USTC Exec Director Mst. Harris from being a ref at a USAT event and other such dealings.  However, Pres. Lee and other officers STILL continue to tell its members that it should still support the USAT if they wish to pursue the Olympics.  They have always said they were not interested in being an NGB for the Olympics.  They have their own separate goals.

With that being said, I would like to once again state that this situation has nothing to do with the USTC organization.  This is USKKW vs. KKW.  USKKW's hope was to provide a centralize processing center that would help US instructors with KKW manners such as Dan certification, training, etc.  To my knowledge they have at no time said they will be the end all be all and that ALL certificates must be processed through them.


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## miguksaram (Mar 1, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Ha, thats funny trying to play that on me,racist,I am far from being racist. I am talking Korean politics because that is what has happened to the USTC. The current KKW president is taking the global ideas of the previous administration,who I believe got the ideas from President Lee and the USTC.


How do you see Korean politics in all of this and how do you figure that is what is happening to the USTC?



> Was it not the USTC and president Lee who came up with the US KKW?


No they did not come up with USKKW, but they were the ones who made a bid for the position when it was made available.  However, they told us that one had nothing to do with the other.



> Was it not the USTC that was a big player in trying to stop the govt.takeover of the KKW?


The USTC has been very vocal to the Korean government.  They had a special opportunity back in 2009 when they sponsored delegations from all over the world.  At one of the dinners a representative from the Korean Senate visited as a guest speaker.  It was then that Pres. Lee and several other TKD leaders from 13 different countries had the opportunity to discuss what they felt were the negative ramifications of having the Koran government control KKW.  So while it would be nice to say USTC was the big dog on the block it was a world wide unified effort to stop this process.  



> Isn't that the reason for this whole lawsuit mess.


  The reason for the mess is that there was a contract in place between the two parties (USKKW & KKW).  One of the parties (KKW) no longer felt the need to honor their part of the contract.  Now, after several attempts, it has come down to having to put this in the hands of the court system.


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## d1jinx (Mar 1, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> No they did not come up with USKKW, but they were the ones who made a bid for the position when it was made available. However, they told us that one had nothing to do with the other.
> 
> 
> The reason for the mess is that there was a contract in place between the two parties (USKKW & KKW). One of the parties (KKW) no longer felt the need to honor their part of the contract. Now, after several attempts, it has come down to having to put this in the hands of the court system.


 
LEADLEG,

This is Correct. I'm not sure how involved you have been, but remember about 2 years ago, the Kukkiwon anounced it would be setting up an Overseas Kukkiwon Branch. Several U.S. Orgs applied (none of which were USAT) actually 3, I think. USTC won the "CONTRACT" to run the KKW overseas branch in the U.S. hence, USKKW.

I believe there was a time limit to how long they would hold that contract, but regardless, USTC won the contract. KKW has not upheld that contract. It is no different then you applying for a YMCA contract and winning, then right after you win a New director takes over and says the contract in Non existant and refuses to recognise it.

It was never USTC's Idea, It was the KKW in KOREA's idea.


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## terryl965 (Mar 1, 2011)

When will people in power understand it is not about them but instead about the training and intrigrity of TKD that really matters in the end.


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## miguksaram (Mar 1, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> When will people in power understand it is not about them but instead about the training and intrigrity of TKD that really matters in the end.


That is the sentiment of the USTC.  Bringing back that integrity and art of Taekwondo.


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## dowan50 (Mar 1, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> OK, so it was more the fact that often the time requirement was skipped, skipping so many dans and going around your master/grandmaster that you had a problem with than dan skipping per se.
> 
> As the recent recipient of a skip dan I am aware some people don't like the idea of skipping dan grades and I just like the opportunity to discuss why so that I can understand their feelings better.
> 
> I support skip Dan being awarded when the applicant meets all requirements published by the KKW which include time in rank and still meeting all testing requirements while at the same time considerations for financial hardship, testing master/GM has died and other other special circumstances. The issues stated above I have a problem with and not just me. I have many friends who complained about those who had considerable cash and influence were able to jump ahead by having the time and money to go to Korea directly and personally pay off who they needed to skip ahead? I personally have not seen this and those who were rumored of doing this that I knew seemed very qualified to hold their rank.


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## terryl965 (Mar 1, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> andyjeffries said:
> 
> 
> > OK, so it was more the fact that often the time requirement was skipped, skipping so many dans and going around your master/grandmaster that you had a problem with than dan skipping per se.
> ...


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## IcemanSK (Mar 1, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> LEADLEG,
> 
> This is Correct. I'm not sure how involved you have been, but remember about 2 years ago, the Kukkiwon anounced it would be setting up an Overseas Kukkiwon Branch. Several U.S. Orgs applied (none of which were USAT) actually 3, I think. USTC won the "CONTRACT" to run the KKW overseas branch in the U.S. hence, USKKW.
> 
> ...




If I'm not mistaken, the USNTF run by GM Kwon, Duk Gun out of Illinois was also one of those orgs who bid on that contract.


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## miguksaram (Mar 1, 2011)

IcemanSK said:


> If I'm not mistaken, the USNTF run by GM Kwon, Duk Gun out of Illinois was also one of those orgs who bid on that contract.


That is correct.


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## puunui (Mar 1, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Ha, thats funny trying to play that on me,racist,I am far from being racist.




I am just going by what you wrote, that you have no information on it but the "history of Korean politics" is in play here and we can make assumptions based on that. You could have said "Taekwondo politics" or simply "politics" but instead chose to use the term "korean", which is a racial distinction. Having no information but making assumptions based on race -- what is that in your book? 



leadleg said:


> I do not have any inside information it is only my opinion,but the  history of Korean politics is at play here and you can make assumptions  based on history.


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## puunui (Mar 1, 2011)

leadleg said:


> You went after one of the posters here because he did not capitalise KKW and yet you have no problem with them being sued.




Capitalize KKW? I have no idea what you are talking about. As for the Kukkiwon being sued, let's just say that there were many people who urged that the lawsuit be filed. You have no idea what is going on. You really do not and all of these accusations and recriminatory comments doesn't change that fact. 

When I was your level, or at your stage of the journey, and something like this happened, I would think deeply about everything that I knew about the situation, and then draw my own conclusions on what was developing and make predictions in my mind about the resolution of the dispute. I would keep these to myself and wait until the situation played out. Then I would compare my perspective and prediction to what actually happened. If I was wrong, I would look deeply to figure out what was the determining factor which caused my perception and prediction to be incorrect. Almost 100% of the time, it was because I failed to take into account or give proper weight to some fact or set of facts, or I did not have enough information to make an accurate prediction. Generally I would give too much weight or not enough weight because of my own preconceived ideas. I learned to look at the situation as objectively as possible, so that I can look at these things clearly. As time went on, I got better at it, mainly because my information became better. 

For those who are interested in following my method, I leave clues and give enough information to point them in the right direction, without giving them the answer. If I give them the answer, then it robs them of the opportunity to work on their perception. When I post on these type of forums, it is really those people that I am writing to, the ones who are soaking it in and trying to sharpen their own perceptions, in preparation of perhaps making a difference in the future, hopefully the near future. 

I am not writing to or for those who want to argue with me, because generally their minds are already made up and therefore there is probably not much that they can learn from me, mainly because they do not wish to learn.


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## dowan50 (Mar 1, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> dowan50 said:
> 
> 
> > Sure there are some valid reason for a skip Dan, but i have seen people not train for years and come back and withen a few years are masters when they was a meer 1st when they left. To me this is abuse of the system if you stop training that time should not be counted, but many times it is. To me a skip dan is needed when someone has lost a GM or just stop being part of a org and always been training so time in would count.
> ...


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 1, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> terryl965 said:
> 
> 
> > dowan50 said:
> ...


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## puunui (Mar 1, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> Its unfortunate certain people that like to go off topic




Check the title of this topic, it is about the USTC lawsuit, not skip dans.


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## puunui (Mar 1, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> call people racists or ignorant suggesting they should not voice their opinion or they try to twist Semantics over a word in a post just spoiling for a fight or at least the opportunity do a counter rant with ME GOOD YOU BAD. They should grow up or just stay in their Do Jang where little children will worship every Pontificating Word that comes out of their mouth.




But I guess it's ok for you do it right?


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## leadleg (Mar 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> Capitalize KKW? I have no idea what you are talking about. As for the Kukkiwon being sued, let's just say that there were many people who urged that the lawsuit be filed. You have no idea what is going on. You really do not and all of these accusations and recriminatory comments doesn't change that fact.
> 
> When I was your level, or at your stage of the journey, and something like this happened, I would think deeply about everything that I knew about the situation, and then draw my own conclusions on what was developing and make predictions in my mind about the resolution of the dispute. I would keep these to myself and wait until the situation played out. Then I would compare my perspective and prediction to what actually happened. If I was wrong, I would look deeply to figure out what was the determining factor which caused my perception and prediction to be incorrect. Almost 100% of the time, it was because I failed to take into account or give proper weight to some fact or set of facts, or I did not have enough information to make an accurate prediction. Generally I would give too much weight or not enough weight because of my own preconceived ideas. I learned to look at the situation as objectively as possible, so that I can look at these things clearly. As time went on, I got better at it, mainly because my information became better.
> 
> ...


 Egotistical diatribe


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## leadleg (Mar 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> I am just going by what you wrote, that you have no information on it but the "history of Korean politics" is in play here and we can make assumptions based on that. You could have said "Taekwondo politics" or simply "politics" but instead chose to use the term "korean", which is a racial distinction. Having no information but making assumptions based on race -- what is that in your book?


 The current preident of the KKW has snubbed the USTC because they tried to keep him out of the KKW by trying to counter the Govt. takeover of the KKW.He is using his office to establish his own style of global KKW. That in my opinion is Korean Politics, Korean being the distinction not racial.But you are correct I could have said just politics except it would have no distinction.


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## leadleg (Mar 2, 2011)

duplicate


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## leadleg (Mar 2, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> dowan50 said:
> 
> 
> > terryl965 said:
> ...


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## miguksaram (Mar 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> The current preident of the KKW has snubbed the USTC because they tried to keep him out of the KKW by trying to counter the Govt. takeover of the KKW.He is using his office to establish his own style of global KKW. That in my opinion is Korean Politics, Korean being the distinction not racial.But you are correct I could have said just politics except it would have no distinction.



Question on this.  Was Kang the definite choice of the Korean government and was placed in there by them or was their an election held after the take over in which Kang won?  The reason why I ask is that you mention that Kang was getting back at the USKKW because they were vocal about government takeover.  USKKW were not the only ones.  There were 81 people from 13 different countries in our last trip were just as vocal about it.


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## leadleg (Mar 2, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Question on this. Was Kang the definite choice of the Korean government and was placed in there by them or was their an election held after the take over in which Kang won? The reason why I ask is that you mention that Kang was getting back at the USKKW because they were vocal about government takeover. USKKW were not the only ones. There were 81 people from 13 different countries in our last trip were just as vocal about it.


 The USTC was more than vocal,they sent signed petitions,asked many dojang owners to get their students to sign petitions,that is no secret and President Lee was very upfront about the takeover.As to the 13 different countries that was thirteen people from different countries not thirteen different orgs. 
Your trip was I am sure considered by the current administration to be USTC, or at least led by thaeir president. 
Is it the present KKW you are upset with or President Kang? I did think the USKKW was established after your trip, so the petition was delivered to Korea from who? 
Just to be clear I am still only voicing one lone opinion about a lawsuit, not really interested in arguing with two guys from the USTU.  
You fought a battle and lost and now act surprised that the victors are seeking reprisal,you say the war is still on and you are predicting a win,thats fine. In the meantime I say you are not going to get much cooperation from the KKW while this suit is going on.Whether it be USKKW or USTC, being that the head of those orgs is the same man.


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## dowan50 (Mar 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Egotistical diatribe



Exactly and those who know him agree in fact every time he quotes his gospel he violates it on every point time after time. Calling people ignorant, racists or they are some how of lower value and should remain quiet and then when all else fails just claim you are some how in another superior reality and have decided to wash your hands of the unworthy.

When all else fails accuse the other person what you yourself are guilty of to put them off balance a classic negotiating style to obtain a goal or change the focus away from the issue at hand.


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## dowan50 (Mar 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> The current preident of the KKW has snubbed the USTC because they tried to keep him out of the KKW by trying to counter the Govt. takeover of the KKW.He is using his office to establish his own style of global KKW. That in my opinion is Korean Politics, Korean being the distinction not racial.But you are correct I could have said just politics except it would have no distinction.
> 
> If you go back you will find that Mr. P has on many occasions used Korean or Korean born in relation to many political situations in his posts about KKW and other TKD organizations. Going further we get general impression from his posts that Korean born is superior to non Korean born or non Korean implying purism related to race. Yet none of us call him a racist? If we go off topic it is only because he has pulled us in that direction and generally to defend the right of free speech and open discussion a forum is about opinion and what a person thinks does matter if only to get a lay of the land to see what the general perspective is.
> 
> ...


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## puunui (Mar 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Egotistical diatribe




The egotistical diatribe is when you admit that you know nothing about something and yet feel you need and are entitled to voice an opinion on it.


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## puunui (Mar 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> The current preident of the KKW has snubbed the USTC because they tried to keep him out of the KKW by trying to counter the Govt. takeover of the KKW.He is using his office to establish his own style of global KKW. That in my opinion is Korean Politics, Korean being the distinction not racial.But you are correct I could have said just politics except it would have no distinction.




When USTC, the KTA and others where opposing the Korean government's takeover of the Kukkiwon, President Kang wasn't even in the picture and wasn't considered a candidate for the position of President.


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## puunui (Mar 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> The USTC was more than vocal,they sent signed petitions,asked many dojang owners to get their students to sign petitions,that is no secret and President Lee was very upfront about the takeover.




The petitions came in from all over the world, not just from the US or USTC. I sat in the Kukkiwon President office and he had boxes of petitions neatly arranged in booklets. There were tens of thousands of names and signatures, maybe hundreds of thousands by the time it was over. It was I think a full time job just to organize that stuff.


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## puunui (Mar 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> You have to have a dojang to go to.




I have more students and students of students who have higher dan rank than you do and who have accomplished much more than you have or ever will. What have you ever done to improve taekwondo, other than voice opinions based on ZERO information?


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## puunui (Mar 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> You fought a battle and lost and now act surprised that the victors are seeking reprisal,you say the war is still on and you are predicting a win,thats fine.



Actually, it was a different battle, fought decades ago, which was won, and now the loser of the battle has come out and is trying to win, again. But that isn't something that you would know about. 




leadleg said:


> In the meantime I say you are not going to get much cooperation from the KKW while this suit is going on.Whether it be USKKW or USTC, being that the head of those orgs is the same man.



We will see, perhaps real soon. And maybe if things do turn around perhaps we should seek reprisal against you. After all, that's how "korean politics" works, right? In fact, you would expect us to do that right? Or are you somehow different and entitled to special treatment?


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## miguksaram (Mar 2, 2011)

First let me clear a few things up.  I'm not arguing with you over anything..I merely asking you more details about your statements.  Secondly I am not nor have I ever been a USTU member.  I AM a USTC member and I'm pretty sure most people on here know that already.  They also know that I am always keeping my ears open for feedback as to what we can do to help improve the organization.  Will I defend it if I hear things being speaking unjustly about it?  Yes.  

Now onto the points at hand:


leadleg said:


> The USTC was more than vocal,they sent signed  petitions,asked many dojang owners to get their students to sign  petitions,that is no secret and President Lee was very upfront about the  takeover.As to the 13 different countries that was thirteen people from  different countries not thirteen different orgs.


I never said they were not vocal about it.  I did say they were not the only ones.  Also, so we are all on the same page it was not 13 people from different countries, it was 81 people from 13 different countries all of which belonged to their own individual TKD organization (Columbia, Japan, USA, Canada, Mexico, South Africa, Australia, Thailand, China/Taiwan - Don't remember off hand which country she was from, Uganda - I might be wrong on this but I know it was another African country, Spain, sorry...but my memory is failing at the last three countries represented, perhaps Glenn could fill that in).



> Your trip was I am sure considered by the current administration to be USTC, or at least led by thaeir president. Is it the present KKW you are upset with or President Kang?


I am not personally upset with either of them.  I do need to read more into the KOMS program but from I have heard and read so far, it does not seem like a program that will be a positive step for the KKW.  



> I did think  the USKKW was established after your trip, so the petition was delivered  to Korea from who?


No it was not established as of yet.Not sure who delivered it.   However, it was not solely USTC members who signed it but non-USTC members as well as members from other countries.  USTC may or may not have spearheaded the project but they were not the only dog in the fight.



> Just to be clear I am still only voicing one lone opinion about a  lawsuit, not really interested in arguing with two guys from the USTU.


Already explained this point.



> You fought a battle and lost and now act surprised that the victors are  seeking reprisal,you say the war is still on and you are predicting a  win,thats fine. In the meantime I say you are not going to get much  cooperation from the KKW while this suit is going on.Whether it be USKKW  or USTC, being that the head of those orgs is the same man.


It was everyone who lost, but that is neither here nor there.  Are we surprised that they KKW is not honoring the contract?  Of course.  It was a law-abiding contract entered in without direst from both parties.  I guess that is just my naivety thinking that an organization that is supposed to promoting such things as honor and integrity fails to do so in its own business.


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## puunui (Mar 2, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I never said they were not vocal about it.  I did say they were not the only ones.  Also, so we are all on the same page it was not 13 people from different countries, it was 81 people from 13 different countries all of which belonged to their own individual TKD organization (Columbia, Japan, USA, Canada, Mexico, South Africa, Australia, Thailand, China/Taiwan - Don't remember off hand which country she was from, Uganda - I might be wrong on this but I know it was another African country, Spain, sorry...but my memory is failing at the last three countries represented, perhaps Glenn could fill that in).




I need to look at the pictures again, but I know was the Olympic referee from Norway, Jessica. Another referee was from Hong Kong or Malaysia, I can't remember. There was another person who lives in Canada now but was originally from Tunisia.


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## puunui (Mar 2, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> It was everyone who lost, but that is neither here nor there.  Are we surprised that they KKW is not honoring the contract?  Of course.  It was a law-abiding contract entered in without direst from both parties.  I guess that is just my naivety thinking that an organization that is supposed to promoting such things as honor and integrity fails to do so in its own business.




Everyone did lose. As for the contract, the Taekwondo Promotion Act states quite clearly that the new Kukkiwon corporation assumes all responsibilities and obligations of the old Kukkiwon corporation, including honoring contracts. This includes big things like the lease agreement with the city of Seoul for the land, and also smaller things like printing contracts, water and electricity, etc.


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## miguksaram (Mar 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> I need to look at the pictures again, but I know was the Olympic referee from Norway, Jessica. Another referee was from Hong Kong or Malaysia, I can't remember. There was another person who lives in Canada now but was originally from Tunisia.


I forgot Norway and Tunisia...the one from Hong Kong is Carmen Chui...she is the one I was referring to that I couldn't remember Taiwan or China...split the difference...Hong Kong. 

Here is one of the group shots...http://www.facebook.com/FluffyBunnySlayer#!/photo.php?fbid=181899544628&set=t.722510044&theater


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## jks9199 (Mar 2, 2011)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please return to the original topic.  Please cease the personal attacks and sniping.

If you find that you cannot tolerate a particular user, we strongly encourage you to make use of the "Ignore" feature.

jks9199
Super Moderator
*


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 2, 2011)

Additionally, if you object to something someone said, report the post with the 'report post' button. That way, we are notified and can take a look. Posting retaliatory comments is generally not a good idea because it makes you part of the problem, rather than part of the solution, and the thread escalates further, without us knowing there is a problem.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 2, 2011)

ATC said:


> Can I get a link please?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I also asked this question.  Is the filing online anywhere?  If not and someone has a copy can they make it available to me and I'll host it?  I assume as it's been filed in a court that it's a matter of public record?

I had a solicitor friend in the UK try to find it for me, but she doesn't generally deal with international law so was unable to find it.  She is, however, now interested in reading a copy when I find it


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## puunui (Mar 2, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I also asked this question.  Is the filing online anywhere?  If not and someone has a copy can they make it available to me and I'll host it?  I assume as it's been filed in a court that it's a matter of public record?




I have a filed stamped copy.


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## Archtkd (Apr 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> I have a filed stamped copy.


 
Has anyone out there looked at the docket of this case? Any updates, especially considering that USAT-MAC is now offering another round of KKW seminars? I thought the pending litigation would cause the KKW to temporarily halt such seminars.


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## puunui (Apr 26, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Has anyone out there looked at the docket of this case? Any updates, especially considering that USAT-MAC is now offering another round of KKW seminars? I thought the pending litigation would cause the KKW to temporarily halt such seminars.




The Complaint was just served on the Kukkiwon in Korea.


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## msmitht (May 1, 2011)

Interesting. I wonder how this will effect the BIG 3 that the usat is planning. Poomsae seminar, kkw master course and a usat black belt testing. I was just asked to be on staff for the events.


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