# Japanese Jujutsu has ground fighting too!



## jujutsu_indonesia (Jan 26, 2006)

From my adventures in browsing the Internet I realized that many people have this very wrong assumption that traditional Japanese Jujutsu does not have ground fighting. This is very wrong. Take look at this:

www.geocities.com/gbi_club/wado_newaza.zip

Those are ground grappling methods practiced within the Wado-ryu system. People thinks of Wado-ryu as a Karate system, but in reality, this school of Karate also subsumes one line of Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu. Read more about it here www.wado-ryu.jp

What do you think, friends?

Note: when downloading the clip, use right click and SAVE AS, and if you receive an error message, it simply means that many people are downloading the clip at the same time. Just try again within 30 mins.


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## TheBattousai (Jan 26, 2006)

When did people start thinking the japanese jujutsu doesn't have ground fighting? I can't beleive the things that are lost over time. I hope the old jujutsu styles are keeping things in tact, whether the mass knows it or not.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 26, 2006)

the gracie's weren't the ones that came up with the whole concept of groundfighting.......ne waza has always been apart of jujutsu as far as i knew.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 26, 2006)

The Gracies learned Kodokan Judo from a senior student of Jigoro Kano who immigrated to Brazil.  From this, they derived their method of Gracie Jujutsu.  Judo was, of course, derived from the traditional jujutsu methods.  The groundfighting was always an integral part of traditional jujutsu and I am surprised to hear that people would not know this.


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## arnisador (Jan 26, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> the gracie's weren't the ones that came up with the whole concept of groundfighting.......ne waza has always been apart of jujutsu as far as i knew.



If groundfighting hadn't been in jujutsu, it wouldn't have been in judo, and there would _be _no BJJ.


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## Ceicei (Jan 26, 2006)

It's not just about Judo/JuJutsu the masses may be uninformed.  It appears the general population is uninformed about any martial arts...  What the masses usually see/hear, however, is what the media tells them through their varied modes--whether the information is accurate is another story.

- Ceicei


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## karatekid1975 (Jan 26, 2006)

We always had ground fighting. BBJ wasn't the first, nor was Judo (to my knowledge). We grapple regularly in Jujitsu. To me, it's the "norm." I don't know any different, other than the awsome self defense and other stuff I learn.


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## TheBattousai (Jan 27, 2006)

Lets take for instince the ground hold or pin kamishihogatame (the name in my school), where you pin your opponent on the ground by mainly laying your stomach over top their head and pinning there arms with yours. The original concept was that your foe would be wearing one of those traditional battle helmets and they could turn there head easily when held down, so when you put them into that hold, they couldn't turn there head and you'd sufficate them with your stomach. Ground work like this have been around for roughly 350 to 500 years, why do people think that BJJ is the only source of ground work I'll never understand, other than the media telling everyone that is the truth. Maybe over time people will now better..............or not........


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## CMS (Jan 27, 2006)

It's a matter of priorities. Gracie JuJitsu emphasizes the ground game and so it's practicioners get good at it early.

All JuJitsu (or at least most) have complete range of techniques, Atemi waza, nage waza, kensetsu waza, etc., but differant schools/styles have differant priorities or approaches. A "white belt technique" in one school may be a "black belt technique" in another.


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## Robert Carver (Jan 27, 2006)

TheBattousai said:
			
		

> Lets take for instince the ground hold or pin kamishihogatame (the name in my school), where you pin your opponent on the ground by mainly laying your stomach over top their head and pinning there arms with yours. The original concept was that your foe would be wearing one of those traditional battle helmets and they could turn there head easily when held down, so when you put them into that hold, they couldn't turn there head and you'd sufficate them with your stomach.


While kansetsu waza (joint locking techniques) and shime waza (strangulation techniques) have been an integral part of classical Jujutsu, the idea that Osae waza (pinning/holding techniques), at least in a Judo context existed is simply wrong. Kano has said in much of his writings that most of the newaza of Kodokan Judo came from Western wrestling and/or invented by him. Remember, the battlefield of ancient Japan was a massive melee fight in which many folks were running around with swords and other sharp pointy things trying to kill each other. They were not going for submissions or for the other person to run away with a bloody nose, they were trying to kill each other. Instead osae waza of classical Jujutsu was designed to hold the person in place long enough to use your own weapon and dispatch your opponent while remaining in a less vulnerable upright posture alert and ready to deal with other warriors on the battlefield (zanshin).

So the notion that someone on the battlefield wearing full armor would lay on top of someones face using Kami shihogatame and smother them in the heat of battle is one of the most absurb things I have read in months. I mean think about it. The helmet that is likely being worn has a brim at the front that extends out in front of the face by several inches. At the back, you have the sloped rear of helmet that partially or completely covers the neck. It also extends out from the head by several inches. Now press someones head who is wearing this type of helmet to the ground, and you cause the helmet to shift on the head by several inches making the separation between the edge of the visor and the face many more inches. Now let's get to the guy doing the "smothering" technique. He is wearing armor on the torso that would include a hard breastplate, and semi-flexible plated armor (which run vertically in plates) below that. Now, how do you suppose that the guy on top is suppose to get a clean seal over the mouth and nose of someone on the bottom when the brim of the visor sticks out probably six inches or so, and he is trying to lay an inflexible sheet of armor on top of his face? Probably not real likely that this armor is going to deform sufficiently enough over the extended front of the helmet to allow them to cover the mouth and nose. So let's assume that he manages to get an adequate seal over his opponents mouth and nose. How long do you think he will need to lay there and wait for the other guy to sufficate? Many folks can easily hold their breath for 4 or more minutes. In the heat of battle with the heart pumping hard, maybe two minutes. That is a LONG time to be laying prone on the ground when there are others on the battlefield with swords and other sharp pointy instruments. No warrior in his right mind would lay there in a vulnerable position like that waiting for the other guy to sufficate. It is pretty likely that he would find himself run through by some Ashiguru (the lowest ranked foot soldier armed with a spear) or some other samurai would lop off his head. Contrary to the romanticised nonsense that many think of the samurai, they would not have waited until the guy got back to his feet and announced his ancestory and ryuha lineage. Instead, he would have cut apart as he laid there.

The reason that you find newaza being taught today in modern and semi modern Jujutsu systems is really quite simple. First, many of the instructors that teach these systems of Jujutsu have a background in Kodokan Judo. Second, much of what is called Jujutsu today does not derive from classical Jujutsu, but is instead modified versions of Kodokan Goshin Jutsu (which is basically Jujutsu techniques for the Judoka that were developed within the context of civilian self-defense and not battlefield fighting) and third, the popularity of Brazillian Jujutsu has lead many instructors to incorporate Kodokan Judo newaza into their curriculum to satisfy the market of students who are looking for and expecting this part of Jujutsu in their training.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. After reading some of the above comments, I just could not contain myself. :asian:


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## West_Virginia_judoka (Jan 27, 2006)

This is so true. Most people do not realize that pinning an opponent on their backside is a sport version of osae waza. 

Limited osae waza existed in some jujutsu ryu, but didn't have cause to exist until after the battlefield era. 

Dave Wolfe



			
				Robert Carver said:
			
		

> While kansetsu waza (joint locking techniques) and shime waza (strangulation techniques) have been an integral part of classical Jujutsu, the idea that Osae waza (pinning/holding techniques), at least in a Judo context existed is simply wrong. Kano has said in much of his writings that most of the newaza of Kodokan Judo came from Western wrestling and/or invented by him. Remember, the battlefield of ancient Japan was a massive melee fight in which many folks were running around with swords and other sharp pointy things trying to kill each other. They were not going for submissions or for the other person to run away with a bloody nose, they were trying to kill each other. Instead osae waza of classical Jujutsu was designed to hold the person in place long enough to use your own weapon and dispatch your opponent while remaining in a less vulnerable upright posture alert and ready to deal with other warriors on the battlefield (zanshin).
> 
> So the notion that someone on the battlefield wearing full armor would lay on top of someones face using Kami shihogatame and smother them in the heat of battle is one of the most absurb things I have read in months. I mean think about it. The helmet that is likely being worn has a brim at the front that extends out in front of the face by several inches. At the back, you have the sloped rear of helmet that partially or completely covers the neck. It also extends out from the head by several inches. Now press someones head who is wearing this type of helmet to the ground, and you cause the helmet to shift on the head by several inches making the separation between the edge of the visor and the face many more inches. Now let's get to the guy doing the "smothering" technique. He is wearing armor on the torso that would include a hard breastplate, and semi-flexible plated armor (which run vertically in plates) below that. Now, how do you suppose that the guy on top is suppose to get a clean seal over the mouth and nose of someone on the bottom when the brim of the visor sticks out probably six inches or so, and he is trying to lay an inflexible sheet of armor on top of his face? Probably not real likely that this armor is going to deform sufficiently enough over the extended front of the helmet to allow them to cover the mouth and nose. So let's assume that he manages to get an adequate seal over his opponents mouth and nose. How long do you think he will need to lay there and wait for the other guy to sufficate? Many folks can easily hold their breath for 4 or more minutes. In the heat of battle with the heart pumping hard, maybe two minutes. That is a LONG time to be laying prone on the ground when there are others on the battlefield with swords and other sharp pointy instruments. No warrior in his right mind would lay there in a vulnerable position like that waiting for the other guy to sufficate. It is pretty likely that he would find himself run through by some Ashiguru (the lowest ranked foot soldier armed with a spear) or some other samurai would lop off his head. Contrary to the romanticised nonsense that many think of the samurai, they would not have waited until the guy got back to his feet and announced his ancestory and ryuha lineage. Instead, he would have cut apart as he laid there.
> 
> ...


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Jan 28, 2006)

West_Virginia_judoka said:
			
		

> Limited osae waza existed in some jujutsu ryu, but didn't have cause to exist until after the battlefield era.
> 
> Dave Wolfe


 
That is very true Mr. Wolfe. 

The clip that I posted above is from Wado-ryu, which drew its techniques from the Shindo Yoshin-ryu branch of Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu. Wado-ryu itself is a new martial art, being created in 1934. The mother art (Shindo Yoshin-ryu) is just like you said, it was a Jujutsu style created after the battlefield era. It was founded in 1864, only 4 years before the Meiji restoration. That's why the groundfighting techniques exist in Shindo Yoshin-ryu, because it was mostly developed for self-defense in peacetime (unlike, say, Kukishinden Yoroi Kumiuchi, which was designed for battlefield grappling with full armor).


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## arnisador (Jan 28, 2006)

I'd agree that the techniques for groundfighting were not prevalent in most styles...but some had more than others, as they did for fighting from seiza, etc. Then, recall that Judo was drawn from many styles.


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## TheBattousai (Jan 29, 2006)

Sorry Mr.Robert Carver, I was mistaken in my technique history and made an error on my part. Sorry if I raised your blood pressure.


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## Cirdan (Feb 3, 2006)

I think the "uninformed masses" mostly think of ju jutsu as "judo with dangerous technices that might even kill"

As for wado there is little or no ground fighting, but a range of throws and locks that aim to incapaciate or leave you in control without getting down and dirty are present.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 5, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> I think the "uninformed masses" mostly think of ju jutsu as "judo with dangerous technices that might even kill"
> 
> As for wado there is little or no ground fighting, but a range of throws and locks that aim to incapaciate or leave you in control without getting down and dirty are present.


 
Hello, fellow Wado practitioner! 

Wado does have ground fighting, please have a look at the video clips which could be found on top of this thread.

If you have the chance, go train with Mr. Suzuki and Mr. Hakoishi  (Mr. Otsuka II if possible, but since you and I are JKF-Wadokai, he seems to be out of reach). They could surprise us with some excellent Newaza techniques!


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 5, 2006)

http://www.geocities.com/gbi_club/wado_newaza.zip

Here are the clips again so you don't have to turn the page 

(right click and Save As, if you got error message, that means the server are busy, try again within 15 mins)


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## Cirdan (Feb 5, 2006)

Thanks, those clips were interesting  
Altough I haven`t seen those technices at my karate club, I have learned some of them when training          ju jutsu.

I think I heard something some time ago about            Mr. Otsuka visiting scandinavia soon so I might get the chanse to meet him.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 7, 2006)

Wow, if the 2nd grandmaster really comes to your country to do seminar, do attend. There are lots of stuff that his father taught him, that he has not shown anyone.


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## bMunky (Mar 7, 2006)

I never thought that japanese jujitsu doesnt have groundfighting. I always found my style of Jujitsu one of the best for selfdefense, since it's all about the stand up game. We incorporate it all pretty much, atemi, joint locks, stand up fighting, ground fighting but we always stress getting back to the feet so we try to end whats on the ground as quick as possible. My sensei like sto focus a LOT on yawara techniques shes a beast when it comes to joint locks, and one of her diciples sensei chris LOVES ground work when he comes in to the class gonna be lots of ground work and ne waza randori. We do all types of randori in class, we judo randori except we once we're down match is over no chokes. And we have ne waza randori where we start off on our knees and the slap the mat and then go at it. I find japanese jujitsu to be extremely complete. Everything si doen on the defensive though not many "attacks" thats why I love the system it was developed for selfdefense during modern times (not to modern but modern enough as in not created thousands of years ago). This system is perfect fo rthe folks who dont want to actually fight, or religous type folks where fighting is against ones religion, the only other martial art like that is aikido and as my sensei teaches both and makes us take aikido for foot work I can say that DZR Jujitsu will help way more in the long run for selfdefense.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 11, 2006)

bMunky said:
			
		

> I never thought that japanese jujitsu doesnt have groundfighting. I always found my style of Jujitsu one of the best for selfdefense, since it's all about the stand up game. We incorporate it all pretty much, atemi, joint locks, stand up fighting, ground fighting but we always stress getting back to the feet so we try to end whats on the ground as quick as possible.


 
yes very true, this is what sensei always said, we learn escapes from ground pins so that we could get back up!



> My sensei like sto focus a LOT on yawara techniques shes a beast when it comes to joint locks


 
you must be practicing a lot of akushu dori escapes then  I dont want to shake your hand  (kidding)



> , and one of her diciples sensei chris LOVES ground work when he comes in to the class gonna be lots of ground work and ne waza randori. We do all types of randori in class, we judo randori except we once we're down match is over no chokes. And we have ne waza randori where we start off on our knees and the slap the mat and then go at it.


 
so you have started the Shime Te list too? That's very nice. I don't like ground fighting (I am small) but my larger friends seemed to enjoy doing it. Make them feels like a gracie 



> I find japanese jujitsu to be extremely complete. Everything si doen on the defensive though not many "attacks" thats why I love the system it was developed for selfdefense during modern times (not to modern but modern enough as in not created thousands of years ago). This system is perfect fo rthe folks who dont want to actually fight, or religous type folks where fighting is against ones religion, the only other martial art like that is aikido and as my sensei teaches both and makes us take aikido for foot work I can say that DZR Jujitsu will help way more in the long run for selfdefense.


 
Yes very true, I was a striking arts practitioner before joining Jujutsu, and jujutsu/aikido/judo is the only martial art which enables us to win fights without injurying the attacker.


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