# Using A Knife For Self Defense



## MJS (Feb 16, 2007)

In another thread I started on knife defense, the mention of using a knife as a SD tool came up.  I want to keep the other thread focused on knife defense, so I thought I'd start this one, so that we can talk about the use of a knife in SD.

I know that many people carry concealed weapons such as a knife and/or a gun.  A knife is probably going to look worse in the eyes of the law, compared to a gun, but in a life or death situation, I just may have to take that chance.

So...the floor, or in this case, the forum, is now open for discussion!:ultracool 

Mike


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## tellner (Feb 16, 2007)

MJS said:


> In another thread I started on knife defense, the mention of using a knife as a SD tool came up.  I want to keep the other thread focused on knife defense, so I thought I'd start this one, so that we can talk about the use of a knife in SD.
> 
> I know that many people carry concealed weapons such as a knife and/or a gun.  A knife is probably going to look worse in the eyes of the law, compared to a gun, but in a life or death situation, I just may have to take that chance.


There are times and places where knives are illegal and guns are not. There are times when Rule 4 (be sure of your target and what is beyond it) won't let you shoot. 

In any deadly force encounter there is the possibility of bad legal consequences. And yes, according to the unspoken mythology in America White tax-paying Christians shoot each other with revolvers while sinister Orientals, shiftless brown hordes from South of the Border and frightening Negroes use knives and razors. It's a problem. But if the situation calls for a knife all you can do is be able to articulate what you did, why you did it, why the alternatives were all worse and do the best you can in court. The alternative was being dead or some reasonable equivalent.


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 16, 2007)

(here's my post that started the tangent on the other thread)

i recommend strongly against using a knife as a self-defense tool.

1.  to use a knife effectively, you have to have the intent of killing.  not everybody can do that.

2.  any sort of knife you can carry is very short range.  better to stay further away.

3. knife wounds look nasty in court later. the difference between self defense and aggravated assault sometimes depends on the jury.

4.  cops often hate knives.  they will be less likely to give you the benefit of the doubt if they see that you cut somebody.

5.  three words:  aitch  eye  vee.  getting bled on by drug users is not a good idea.  (see also hepatitis)

i believe just as strongly in knife training. knowing how a knife is used is an important part of defending yourself against a knife. also, ten minutes of solid knife training will put the right amount of fear into you so you avoid knife people at all costs.

but don't carry a knife for self defense. carry an asp, a tactical flashlight, even a gun. canes are nice. or better yet, rely on your awareness and good sense.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 16, 2007)

> But if the situation calls for a knife all you can do is be able to articulate what you did, why you did it, why the alternatives were all worse and do the best you can in court. The alternative was being dead or some reasonable equivalent.


If the knife is my last or only way out of a life or death situation YES i will use it and as the quote says hope I can convince a court why I needed to.

The reasons for not useing a knife given by bushidomartialarts all have merit also


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## MA-Caver (Feb 16, 2007)

In the times where I've used knives in a fight I've always used it like any other self-defense mode and used it to get myself OUT of the situation as quickly as possible. Adhering to the "Oath Of Peace" I do what I can to incapacitate my aggressor and then get the hell out of dodge... if possible. I will not kill unless it is absolutely necessary and to date (thank goodness) that necessity hasn't come up. 
Knowing when to stop, when your attacker has been wounded, incapacitated enough for you (and yours) to get away from them and to a place of safety is the key. 
For sure the heat of the moment it's very difficult to know when enough is enough is enough. But disicpline and awareness and self-control help make that distinction alot faster and clearer. 
I've only drawn my weapon when it called for it... out numbered, or out maneuvered (such as backed into a corner... blame inexperience on that one at the time), or when like weapon was brought into play against me (call it... even the odds). 
Time and again it's been said on this board and elsewhere; Awareness is the key element to not having to use your guns, knives or martial arts training when your two feet and brain can get you away from the situation.
As far as the law is concerned it is difficult to make a jury decide that you were fighting for your (and maybe another's) life. Hence the "get the hell out of dodge" philosophy comes into play . Running from the scene of a crime I think can be justified that you felt there were others nearby ready to provide assistance to the initial attacker.


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## tellner (Feb 16, 2007)

There are some difficult issues there. 

First, there's the question of when to leave. The general rule of thumb I go by is "If you think you can casually stroll away it's probably safe to run." A fight is a bad thing. Getting dragged down from behind and having to do the fight all over again is a really really Bad Thing(tm). It's always your call. Guess right and you live. Guess wrong and you don't.

Then there is the question of what happens when you leave. To the police, flight is guilt. If you have to leave the scene to maitain your safety, do so. But make sure you're the first one to call the police. If it's safe to remain at the scene and call from there, that's not a bad thing at all. Mr. Ayoob talks about lots and lots of otherwise justifiable self defense cases that turned into aggravated assault or murder because the defender panicked, ran, and became the aggressor in the eyes of the Law.


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## morph4me (Feb 16, 2007)

A knife takes a certain mentality to be able to use effectively, you have to be willing to get close, which leaves your attacker just as close to you, you have to be preared to kill and deal with the aftermath, because that may be your only option, and you have to not mind the feeling of the other person's blood on your hands.  Then you have to be prepared for the legal and civil ramifications, it's hard to go unnoticed when you're covered in blood.


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## grydth (Feb 16, 2007)

The concerns previously cited about carrying a knife are valid from a legal standpoint. Many jurisdictions limit or entirely prohibit this practice - so you'd be in trouble if you ran into a mugger or a police officer. Many cops and prosecutors will suspect you were out looking for trouble if you've got a knife on you. Finally, some will view knife use as an unjust escalation of a 'mere fight' to a deadly combat.... and the DA can question the legitimacy of your claim of self defense.

A lot depends on the facts....and on the prosecutor.


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 16, 2007)

another thing to keep in mind is the decisions isn't 'use a knife or be outclassed in a fight'.  there are many viable weapons to carry that don't have the drawbacks of a knife.  

i'm very fond of asps and canes, and i've heard good things about the effectiveness of tactical flashlights and tasers.

even defending yourself with a gun is a better legal deal than a knife.

tellner told the truth in the other thread.  many americans still view guns as what the wholesome folk carry.  knives are for brown and black criminals to come cut our white women up with.  this is (obviously) untrue, unfair and unfortunate.  but it pays to remember than most of your jurors will be the people who weren't bright enough to get out of jury duty.


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## still learning (Feb 16, 2007)

Hello, This is a tough question to answer?  Why? ...it depends on the situtions.

One ,if just fighting among other friends...(for those who get mad at each other).  NO!

If being attack on the streets and you know it is a life and death sitution here, (unknown person or persons) who wants to your money or honey?
Mostly likely any weapons available will be USED!

In wars?  Off course....at the park? UM? ....anytime you use a knife expect to go to JAIL?  maybe for a long time.

If the other person has one....than you want one too! (best have the longest kine-2 1/2 'or more in lenght).

Stabbing or cutting someone.....this is not an easy thing to do to another person.  (OK for steaks and fish).

So most likely the answer will be?  It depends........(if I have one or not too?)     ........knife...can't live with out it!

PS: One my flavoriate knives was the PUMA hunter...got stolen!  also the Japanese Sashimi knives (long,narrow and very sharp) great for cutting Sushimi...UM! ..........Aloha


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## MJS (Feb 16, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> (here's my post that started the tangent on the other thread)
> 
> i recommend strongly against using a knife as a self-defense tool.
> 
> ...


 
You bring up some great points!  IMO, if its going to come down to using a weapon, its pretty much going to be a worse case scenarion.  Sure, you may be able to use the blade in a way that is not going to cause death, but then again, look at any of the FMAs.  Everything they do is pretty much designed to be fatal.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Feb 16, 2007)

​I am not saying that valid points were not made by everyone, I just  want to add my $0.02.

IMO, If you want to be able to defend  against a knife, then learning how to fight with one is a good idea.

 Most rec MA, when they work knife defense do that stupid static stab or overhead down ward  BS, no one but an   enraged woman or a moran attacks like that with a blade, so study knife  fighting to soime degree, so your  and  your training partners attacks are realistic.

The legal issues are important, but tried  by 12 or carried  by six  comes  into account, and laws that are unrealistic, should not be obeyed if they can cost you your life. A person should be able to defend themselves from violent assults with whatever  means they see fit.

 10 years ago, before every one had a  camera phone and there  were not  so many survalince  cameras around, I was an advocate of kill him and run, but anyone else there who is not with you, needs to die too.That went with using a knife, a gun, or a brick.

 Now  though, it's damn easy to be filmed, so it becomes more of an enviromental issue.

 You pull a weapon, I will knife  you. You come at be  with buddies, I will knife you ( and I almost had to once.)  you  stick a gun in my face, you might get stabbed. Your  clearly  Psychotic, I will knife  you, I'll figure out the Legal B.S.  after the fact, if I have to.


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## still learning (Feb 16, 2007)

Hello, One more point,  Expect to be cut/stab.  Expect lots of blood and bloodly clothes.

The knives may get slippery to handle, and can slip from your hand (sometimes cutting your own self).  If the knife is drop or taken from you..expect to be stab or cut up.  (Like Nicole.....have a will made)

Practicing in school/class is very different from the real  world of Fear situtions.  

In school you can practice over and over...BUT How many of you practice at full speed and having your partner attack you at his choice of attack?

At full speed....and not knowing where and when the knife is coming?  You think you can survive this?

There was a class for Professioal knife trainers...most of them lost when attack in class at full speed.

See a knife or think your attacker has one.....RUN or use things around you or on you for self-defense...shoes,wallets,belts,shirts, and so on...

You can get lucky....most people don't....some die too!   BE smart...learn about awareness and avoidance........Aloha


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## frank raud (Feb 23, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> (here's my post that started the tangent on the other thread)
> 
> i recommend strongly against using a knife as a self-defense tool.
> 
> ...


How is a flashlight a long range weapon? If you are being attacked, how is it you have the option of choosing the distance you are from your attacker? If someone is 20 feet away from you, hard to justify shooting them as they are not an imminent threat(unless they are pointing a gun at you, but let's not go there).


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## Cruentus (Feb 23, 2007)

I made my opinions clear regarding the legal issues of using a knife for self-defense here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45080&highlight=knife+self-defense

I don't want to repeat the same argument, but I am of the opinion that knives should be considered tools of utility and only carried as such. They could be used for self-defense if that's what was readily available and lethal force was imminent, but that shouldn't be the main intent of the knife if one carries it.


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## Cruentus (Feb 23, 2007)

Strategically speaking:

The current strategy that is most popular among the knife industry right now is to limb cut. The idea of bio-mechanical cutting; where one intends to severe ligaments and tendons of the attacker, rendering their attacking limbs useless. The have been many articles and commentary even lately on the subject, touting this principle, and discussing it in terms of stopping power. They make a compelling argument that because knives lack stopping power, cutting the limbs to render them useless is the quickest way to stop the attacker.

As much as I respect the argument and the individuals proposing it, I respectfully disagree with the limb cutting approach. Not that you wouldn't cut limbs, as you would if that was what was available. But the approach that we propose is that your strategy is to stab rather then slice center mass, preferably into the face and neck area high, and try to run through them to either escape or get behind them when attacker has stopped enough to allow it.

Our reasoning behind this approach is that limb cuts are not reliable, and have not proven to be reliable show stoppers in knife encounters. There is not very much evidence out there of people having their arm cut, a tendon severed cleanly, and the opponent dropping the weapon and not being able to continue. There is countless evidence available, however, of people having arms sliced repeatedly, and not stopping their attacks. In a fight, it is difficult to precisely target the tendon and cut it cleanly. One may only partially sever it, or miss it completely even if it seems like they sliced deeply in the right spot. People just aren't getting limbs cut, and dropping their weapons because of it. Usually when peoples limbs are cut, they don't even know it, and they continue to attack.

Knives lack stopping power. This is the unfortunate fact about them if you are forced to use one in self-defense. But by attacking with a stab center mass, particularly the eye, face, neck area, the attacker is more likely to pause, flinch, or stop from the impact of that stab, as well as the damage. Lower Body stabs are far less likely to cause stoppage, but stabs to the groin kidneys and lower abs, or even the legs like the thigh areas are likely to get the attackers attention, or hinder the attackers ability to chase you down.

Face or center mass attacks are more likely to enduce stoppage. There is NO proof of such reliability with limb attacks, and the evidence actually points to the contrary.

What I say goes completely against the grain of what is popular to train right now. But that is O.K.; if there weren't differences in ideas then no one would be thinking critically!

And remember, these things tend to fall into trends. So when the trend changes from a limb cutting strategy to a center mass stabing strategy, remember what I posted here!


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## Cruentus (Feb 23, 2007)

Lastly, in regards to limb cutting:

I want to reiterate that I will still cut limbs if they are available; I just won't rely on them to be show stoppers. That said, lets look at a usually overlooked target: the supporting limbs.

Although it may seem harder to get to (it's not when clinched or close), *leg* cuts/stabs are probably more effective then arm cuts. Why? Because the attacker relies on the legs for support and maneuverablity. Example, if you can stab the side or front of the thigh, slice the back of the knee, stab the calf, or cut the achilles tendon, the attacker will have a harder time maneuvering, or a harder time chasing you if you were cutting your way out of a clinch to run to safety.

I think a lot of times, people overlook the usefulness of lower limb attacks with the blade.


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## shesulsa (Feb 23, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> Lastly, in regards to limb cutting:
> 
> I want to reiterate that I will still cut limbs if they are available; I just won't rely on them to be show stoppers. That said, lets look at a usually overlooked target: the supporting limbs.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

artyon:  Preach, brotha, preach!


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 23, 2007)

frank raud said:


> How is a flashlight a long range weapon?



you can use a flashlight to dazzle or blind an opponent from a fair distance away.  some of the newer tactical flashes are built with that in mind, but even a nice maglight will wreck an attacker's night vision long enough for me to get the advantage or (better yet) get gone.




frank raud said:


> If you are being attacked, how is it you have the option of choosing the distance you are from your attacker?



time to get back to your awareness training.  as a martial artist, it's your _job _to choose the distance and time of combat.  this won't always be possible, but if you keep your training in mind you'll see trouble coming miles away much of the time.



frank raud said:


> If someone is 20 feet away from you, hard to justify shooting them as they are not an imminent threat(unless they are pointing a gun at you, but let's not go there).



20 feet?  If my attacker is 20 feet away, with or without a gun, he's not my attacker, he's my _pursuer_.  and i'm willing to bet i run faster scared than he does mad.


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## frank raud (Feb 23, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> you can use a flashlight to dazzle or blind an opponent from a fair distance away. some of the newer tactical flashes are built with that in mind, but even a nice maglight will wreck an attacker's night vision long enough for me to get the advantage or (better yet) get gone.
> 
> wonderful. So are you going to cause night blindness to everyone that comes with flashlight range, or are you going to wait to react until they become a threat, at oh say close range?
> 
> ...


 
I'll give you this one,fair enough!


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