# Certified...finally!



## arnisandyz (Apr 15, 2003)

Hello All,

I am proud to announce that I have been promoted to Instructor level 1 by Datu Shishir Inocalla.  My testing was last Sunday and took pretty much the entire day.  This is a big personal accomlishment that I have put on hold until now.  My certificate is pretty cool,  its the Modern Arnis Philippines one and is signed by Remy Presas.  Datu Incocalla had the Professor sign a few of them the last time he visited him before his death. I am not sure to what extent I will get involved in the political aspects of Modern Arnis, but Datu Inocalla requested that I register our school with the IMAF. I am involved with other organizations and our club represents other FMA styles, so our school will not be "pure" Modern Arnis, but I will do my best to represent Datu Inocalla, Professor Presas and Modern Arnis.

Thanks and its good to feel part of the family again.

Andy


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## pesilat (Apr 15, 2003)

Congrats 

Mike


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## rachel (Apr 15, 2003)

Congratulations!


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## arnisador (Apr 15, 2003)

That's great!


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 15, 2003)

:cheers:


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## Guro Harold (Apr 15, 2003)

Hi Andy,

Job well done!!!!!!

Harold


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 15, 2003)

:cheers: Congrats!


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## Brian Johns (Apr 15, 2003)

Andy,

Congratulations on your achievement !! I had the fortune of meeting Datu Shishir Inocalla last October at the IMAF Chicago camp and came away very impressed with Datu Shishir. Nice pic of you and Datu Shishir !!

Sincerely,
Brian Johns
Columbus, Ohio


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## Dan Anderson (Apr 15, 2003)

Andy,
Congratulations!  Tell Shishir hell for me.
Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 15, 2003)

Congradulations.   :asian:


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## Brian Johns (Apr 15, 2003)

> Andy,
> Congratulations! Tell Shishir hell for me.
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson



Hey Dan,

"Hell" ?   


Take care,
Brian


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 15, 2003)

Nice Job!

:asian:


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## arnisandyz (Apr 16, 2003)

Thanks everybody,

One of the nice things about the testing was that Datu Inocalla pointed out the "original" core techniques from older Modern Arnis and also showed the "inovations" that was made (some by him and by others) which was encouraged by the professor. 

 I kind of see it as the core techniques being the roots/trunk of a tree...and everyones inovations and different directions that they have taken as branches, no two are exactly alike, but they all share the same roots.

Andy


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## moromoro (Apr 16, 2003)

firstly i would like to say congrats on reaching that level for your art. you did the time now you got the rewards..


i just have 1 question now this is not meant to be political and i dont want people to take this the wrong way..



> My certificate is pretty cool, its the Modern Arnis Philippines one and is signed by Remy Presas. Datu Incocalla had the Professor sign a few of them the last time he visited him before his death.



this is my question, your certificate is signed by the prof. (R.I.P) but he never tested you?? 
How does this workout? With all due respect for incocalla it was he that graded you.
also are the certificates only for level 1s or could they be for any level.?


thanks
terry


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## Arthur (Apr 16, 2003)

Congrats! May you enjoy the teaching even more than the road to this point traveled.

Arthur


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *this is my question, your certificate is signed by the prof. (R.I.P) but he never tested you?? How does this workout? With all due respect for incocalla it was he that graded you.*



I hate to admit to this, but I agree with moromoro. I don't want to take away from your accomplishment, but I do question the wisdom of Datu Shishir using diplomas that GM Remy signed now that he is gone. I have the same blank diplomas sign by GM Remy. I wouldn't feel comfortable using them for anything more than replacing a damaged diploma. No disrespect intended.
:asian:


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## arnisandyz (Apr 16, 2003)

The Certificate being signed by the Professor was very significant to me and a pleasant surprise. I hope others do not take this the wrong way, but when I first met the Professor I felt very special in the fact the he did take pride in helping young Filipino Americans  get in touch with there culture and I feel he did pay special attention to me as well as others because of our nationality.  When he passed away, like many, I felt like my uncle had died.  I no longer felt like achieving in Modern Arnis although I still practiced it.  Again I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but who was going to be my sponsor?  Definately not Delaney. Ive  stayed with Ray Dionaldo (another Pinoy) ever since and although he is a great Arnisador and teacher, he was taking his own path.  When I met Shishir, he had a similar demenor as the professor, in that he really enjoyed passing the art to young Filipinos.

The signature of Remy Presas has personal meaning to me and I do not intend to mislead anyone and say that he tested me or was present for the testing, although I can see how someone might exploit this. Certificates usually do have the name of the Art and the GrandMaster on them, correct?  It is a certificate of lineage from student to Datu to Grand Master.  It is my guess that this was Datu Shishirs intent as well.  I am sure he is careful to who he gives remaining signed certificates out to.

Hope this answers your questions and I hape not to offend any non-filipnos.  In the end it is still just a piece of paper, but it is what the piece of paper means to me that is important, not to anybody else.

The certificate is used only for level 1 (instructor) and level 2 (senior instructor).


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 16, 2003)

Like I said, I have no problem with you and your accomplishment. I wouldn't have said a word if someone else didn't mention it first. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that myself. I wish you luck and hope that you can help ALL of us in the Modern Arnis community carry on GM Remy's work.

Your brother in Modern Arnis,
Datu Tim Hartman
World Modern Arnis Alliance
:asian:


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## arnisandyz (Apr 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *Like I said, I have no problem with you and your accomplishment. I wouldn't have said a word if someone else didn't mention it first. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that myself. I wish you luck and hope that you can help ALL of us in the Modern Arnis community carry on GM Remy's work.
> 
> Your brother in Modern Arnis,
> ...




I have no problem with anybody questioning the signed certificate, it is a valid and very good question!  I can only hope they are given out is "special" instances.  Datu Shishir did have 2 versions of the certificate (the other had Remy Presas' name typed in only).  In any case I will (carefully and respectfully) try to speak with him about it.

Andy


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 16, 2003)

Cool.


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## Dan Anderson (Apr 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WhoopAss _
> *Hey Dan,
> 
> "Hell" ?
> ...



Ayyyieeee!
Just got nipped by the typo police - *HELLO!  I MEANT HELLO!*

Yours,
Dan


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## Brian Johns (Apr 16, 2003)

> Ayyyieeee!
> Just got nipped by the typo police - HELLO! I MEANT HELLO!



I figured as much.  

Take care,
Brian


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## Brian Johns (Apr 16, 2003)

> I hate to admit to this, but I agree with moromoro. I don't want to take away from your accomplishment, but I do question the wisdom of Datu Shishir using diplomas that GM Remy signed now that he is gone. I have the same blank diplomas sign by GM Remy. I



In a way, I agree with Renegade. However, I do want to say this. I don't really hold it against against Arnisandyz that he has a certificate signed by Professor for two reasons. First, he has been very open about the certificate situation. Secondly, it's not as if he never met Professor or did not know him. But mostly, it's due to the fact that Andy has been open about this situation. Also, it appears that he's an Arnis brother of ours.

Take care,
Brian Johns


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## moromoro (Apr 17, 2003)

well well we agree renegade,(maybe my new attitude iam much cooler now, iam getting the hang of it now) 
i agree with what you say that you would only feel comfortable in using these to replace damage certificates..... with all due respect to you arnisandyz.... the recipient of these certificates will know in their heart and minds that the professor (R.I.P) did not issue them with these certificates, 
also you are right in saying it is just a peice of paper. it proves notthing about how you can fight and back it up and many of the arts still tought in the philippines dont have grading structures and dont give out certificates.....

i have one more question, is there a date on the certificate? is the date of when Prof (R.I.P) signed it or when you recieved it?

how about on your copies renegade is the date when the prof (R.I.P) signed or can you issue the date? 

thanks

Terry


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *
> how about on your copies renegade is the date when the prof (R.I.P) signed or can you issue the date?
> 
> ...



The diplomas that I have are not dated.


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## arnisandyz (Apr 17, 2003)

The certificate that I recieved was dated and signed by Datu Shishir.  The certificate says something to the effect of ...issued the year of nineteen hundred and -----2003.  Kind of strange I know!  but whatever.  Anybody that sees this that knows anything about the Professor knows when he passed away and this was issued well after that.  Makes for a good story and conversation, so it doen't really bother me.

In a sense..the professor "may have issued them."  Heres an analogy, if your sign 5 blank checks to your wife (it will never happen!) and gave no further instruction,  wouldn't you think that one may get "used"?  You did in fact "issue" a check by signing it, the bearer decides how it is used. Unless the Professor gave specific instruction "ONLY USE THESE AS REPLACEMENTS!"  I would guess that he entrusted to whoever he gave the certificates to to use there own judgement as how they are used.   Some may not feel comfortable in using them, and others may use them in special instances, and others will abuse them.  I presented my position with Datu Shishir when I first met him and my sentiments towards the Professor,  I am guessing he made a judgement call to share something with me that not everyboody has privlege to. In any case, I know that I am careful with what I sign and would not give my signature on a blank anything unless I reallly trusted the person i'm giving it to. I am guessing very few people got blank certificates from the Professor, Datu Hartman and Datu Inocalla are the only ones that I know of.

Andy


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## arnisandyz (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> the recipient of these certificates will know in their heart and minds that the professor (R.I.P) did not issue them with these certificates,
> Terry [/B]




Of coarse I know, but he was with me in spirit.   Like I mentioned earlier, the signature thing is a personal thing to me...its like getting Babe Ruth's autograph on a ball handed down from your uncle...everyone know's he didn't sign it to you, but that doesn't take away from the pride and joy of having it.  


Andy


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## Guro Harold (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> * I am guessing very few people got blank certificates from the Professor, Datu Hartman and Datu Inocalla are the only ones that I know of.
> 
> Andy *



Hi Andy,

There are others out there, believe me, I have seen them.

Everyone,

I know Andy and let me tell you he is an honorable man and eskrimador with deep roots in the Philippine martial arts and culture.

Before Modern Arnis and FCS-Kali, Andy also had the great opportunity to study Arnis from his family system while growing up and is turning out some impressive training swords and knives.

Harold Evans


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## moromoro (Apr 17, 2003)

hi harold and andy

the question was never that he wasnt an honorable man it was simply about the certificates signed by the prof (R.I.P)............

also





> , Andy also had the great opportunity to study Arnis from his family system while growing up and is turning out some impressive training swords and knives.



hi andy can i ask what does your family system involve, and which region was it from,, thanks

also andy are you a blacksmith?? or is it just a hobby???


thanks


terry


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## Guro Harold (Apr 17, 2003)

Hi Terry,

My statement towards Andy was not directed at you specifically.  I was letting others know that I know Andy.

Harold


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## Cthulhu (Apr 17, 2003)

I'm not sure where Andy's family is from, but his uncle's system is a largo mano-based system.  So far, the stuff he's shown us is mostly espada y daga, but I'm sure it's not limited to that.

The training knives and swords he makes are of aluminum.  There are numerous threads and pictures of his works on the board.  

Cthulhu


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## arnisandyz (Apr 17, 2003)

Hi Harold,

thanks for the kind words. 

I was taught a largo method of stick and dagger my uncles.  What characterizes it are its somewhat long stances and the fact that the dagger never goes in for body shots, but instead is used as a support weapon from long range (cutting the limbs or checking the weapon). It has no name, as far as I or my uncles know of. They learned it from a friend of thier father. where he learned it, I don't know. There are no Grand Masters Datus or rank or certificates, etc.  They are from Santa Rosa, southern part of northern island.  I was also young when I started (and didn't like it very much).   I was going to include it in our club logo (out of respect for my uncles) but I didn't know what to call it.  Another reason I didn't is that I do not want to mislead anyone into thinking this is a style that has been in my family for many generations, or its a complete system.  it is not.  It is simply a method taught to me by by uncles.  My friends called it my "family system" our "my uncles ssyetem" and for the lack of a better name for it, thats what I refer to it as.  Sorry I cannot Cite the history, lineage, etc ,etc...but this is how it was presented to me and thats how I learned it.  Again, I do not want to mislead anyone and say something like "This ancient system has been handed down in my family for 5 generations...BS,BS"  When I say family system i simple mean some things my uncle showed me, and that is how I explain it and present it when I show it to anyone.

I am in now way a Blacksmith pro or amatuer!!!  Jessee Frank did offer to get me started working with steel at the last gathering however.  I make trainers.  Made out of alloy steel.  In many respects it is more like woodworking than metal smithing.  Still fun though!  And you get alot of nice toys in the end.

Andy


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## arnisandyz (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *I'So far, the stuff he's shown us is mostly espada y daga, but I'm sure it's not limited to that.
> 
> Cthulhu *




Cthulhu,

The long and short was all that I was taught.  If there is more to it, I don't know.  I was also show close range techniques with stick and emptyhand, but I am pretty sure that is from my uncles Modern Arnis in college.  They didn't tell me this is from this or this is from that.

Andy


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## Cthulhu (Apr 17, 2003)

Heh...everything we do gets blended together into a seamless whole anyway.  It all ends up being the same dang thing 

Cthulhu


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## Guro Harold (Apr 17, 2003)

Andy,

Please check your MartialTalk email and respond as quickly as you can.

Thanks,

Harold


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## AldonAsher (Apr 17, 2003)

To get back to the original topic of this thread:

Although I have already conveyed this privately, I would like to say congratulations to Andy.  I know it was well deserved.  

I have had the privilege of being Andy's friend and, up until recently, training partner for the past few years.  Through our training together, he has given me an appreciation for Modern Arnis that I did not have before I met him.  Admittedly, I was not immediately draw to the art when I was first exposed to it.  Because of his patience and of the way he represents the art, he showed me the beauty of Modern Arnis.  I will always be grateful for what he has shared with me.

I understand why some have questioned the certificate with the Professor's signature.  Due to the claims some people have made recently, it makes sense to be skeptical.  Andy has done well in explaining the significance of Professor's signature on his certificate.  As Harold(Palasut) has done in an earlier post, I will  attest to Andy's character.  If that's not good enough for anyone, so be it.  

Once again, I congratulate Andy on his achievement.  Those of us who know him know you could not ask for a better person to represent Modern Arnis.  

Aldon Asher


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## Cthulhu (Apr 17, 2003)

Bah.  Anyone who knows Andy knows he has no bad intentions for the certificate and honors the memory of Prof. Presas.  His friends and students know what the certification means to him.  Anyone else has issues with that, too bad.  If you knew him, you wouldn't have any concerns.  

Like AldonAsher, I already congratulated you privately, but once again, congratulations!

Cthulhu


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## arnisandyz (Apr 17, 2003)

Damn Al...I think I'm gonna cry...but seriously, we have shared alot through the years and have grown together in the Arts as brothers and the feeling is mutual.  Thanks.

Anyways, thanks everyone for your support.  My posting here was not to brag or say I have this or that....it was just a simple post to share my happiness with my FMA brothers and sisters...never thought it would get 3 pages long.

And I understand everybody's position on the signature thing, I know it doesn't mean you don't support me, but please know that at least one signed certificate will not be abused!

Lets end this post already!

Andy


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## Cthulhu (Apr 17, 2003)

What're you gonna do if I don't?  Beat me?  You do that on a weekly basis already!  



Cthulhu

PS - guys, let me know what you think about that URL I sent you!


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## arnisandyz (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *What're you gonna do if I don't?  Beat me?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Cthulhu (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> [
> No, I'll just pair you up with new Wyane all night and let him take care of you by accident!
> 
> Andy



Dude, that's just *mean*!

Cthulhu


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *Unless the Professor gave specific instruction "ONLY USE THESE AS REPLACEMENTS!"  I would guess that he entrusted to whoever he gave the certificates to to use there own judgement as how they are used. *




He did.  At the time he gave me the certificates, we had an understanding that this was only for promotions up to third degree brown and any promotions to instructor or black belt status would be done by him personally.  At that time, I knew of no exceptions.  This is not to say he didn't tell Shishir something else.  Seeing that your promotion was to instructor status, I would have felt more comfortable issuing you one of the organizational certificates that we use and not the ones that Remy pre-signed for me.  

The black belt promotions I have done since the Professor's death have been done by my hand  alone.  These were WMAA promtions done by our standards.  I don't feel that Professor would have disagreed with my standards.  I was always harder on my students when it came to rank than he was.  The big thing to me is that these were under black belt certificates and I don't feel comfortable issuing them for any of our promotions.  Since my resignation from the IMAF, I also would not feel comfortable using IMAF certificates.  We are a different organization with different standards and different papers.  Since Datu Shishir is a member of the IMAF, there are a lot more reasons for him to use those certificates. 

Like I said before, I have no problems with your promotion.  The above is the reason I would not use the certificates other than to replace a damaged certificate.  

Your brother in the arts-
Tim Hartman


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## Guro Harold (Apr 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *Since my resignation from the IMAF, I also would not feel comfortable using IMAF certificates.  We are a different organization with different standards and different papers.  Since Datu Shishir is a member of the IMAF, there are a lot more reasons for him to use those certificates.
> *



Hi Tim,

I don't think that this is a general practice for IMAF, Inc.  When Dr. Shea presented promotion certificates for Guro Ng and Guro Rivera, he stated that he was able to get GM Presas' signature for one but not for the other.

I am not an official spokesman for IMAF, Inc, but I do believe that only current leadership signs the certificates.  Therefore this might be an individual case for Shirshir.

On another note, MARPPIO showed me a stack of certificates pre-signed from the Professor, which they do not use also.  From what I recall, they were approached by someone who requested a "duplicate" certificate, which they declined.

Harold


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