# Katana Suggestion?



## Christian Soldier

Howdy. I'm looking into getting a nice katana in the next couple years. I don't want like a 50$ one from BudK, I'm more in the $100-400 range. I figure If I'm going to get one, I'll wait and get a really nice one.

I searched awhile into it and I'm having trouble finding nice ones. I was looking into Cold Steel's Warrior series but I read some bad reviews that were discouraging.

If you guys know any place where I can get a nice katana with a great blade and a tight fitting handle and hilt and you told me, that would be great.

Thanks!


Dan


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## pgsmith

I'm afraid you've asked for two contradictory things here. You've said ... 


> I'm more in the $100-400 range.





> I'll wait and get a really nice one.



  Decent quality Chinese made katana can be had from somewhere like Bugei starting about $800. A really nice katana can be custom made by a good American smith and put together by American craftsmen for about $6000. A really nice katana made by a decent Japanese smith and put together by Japanese craftsmen will start at about $10,000, and can go up to $100,000 depending upon the smith and the craftsmen chosen.

  In the $100 to $400 range, you can get a minimally functional Chinese made katana that will hold togther well enough to be used occassionally, but not every day. It will more than likely be poorly balanced, and the shortcuts taken to make it so inexpensive will reveal themselves with prolonged use. If you keep that firmly in mind, and tell people what you plan on using it for, perhaps someone can direct you to one or another manufacturer whose shortcuts are slanted in other directions.


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## Neddog

Christian Soldier said:


> Howdy. I'm looking into getting a nice  katana in the next couple years. I don't want like a 50$ one from BudK,  I'm more in the $100-400 range. I figure If I'm going to get one, I'll  wait and get a really nice one.
> 
> If you guys know any place where I can get a nice katana with a great  blade and a tight fitting handle and hilt and you told me, that would be  great.


The majority of japanese-style katana produced today are from China. The reason why is that Japan has strict laws governing their swordsmiths, which only allows them to make a very small number of katana each year. This means that the price of an authentic nihonto (forged in Japan) has become astronomical.

That doesn't make the Chinese katana so inferior though. A nihonto will inherently be better by virtue of the care and manufacturer put into one of these limited blades which a Japanese swordsmith must charge an arm and leg for in order to keep his living. However, there is nothing magical about the processes or materials used. In fact, most of the forging methods which define a traditional Japanese sword come from China in the first place. China has the methodology, Japan has the art. The Chinese taught the Japanese how to make swords the way they do now, but the Japanese perfected the art around it. You could almost say that a Japanese styled katana from a Chinese forge gives you the "best of both worlds". I use a Japanese katana because of the martial arts that are built around it, which give me proper instruction to master the use of that sword, right from the draw to the swing. However, I am more than happy to get these Japanese styled blades from a reputable Chinese forge.

Most of the Chinese swords in the market today come from forges in Longquan, known as "the City of Treasure Sword", which is steeped in historic sword smithing legacy (as well as porcelain, off topic). Most of these Chinese forges use very traditional methods, even for inexpensive blades. Mind you, these are mass-produced blades by smiths who reside in a country where it is easier to become a sword smith. Not in a country where becoming a sword smith requires extreme dedication and an impovershed life for the sake of your trade. They may be hand-forged with traditional methods, but that doesn't make them better than any carefully crafted, limited quantity Nihonto. It does however, make them very fine blades for general purpose use.... which are cheap enough that you won't be afraid to use them! You may get cheaper fittings and wraps, probably a cheap saya, etc. As long as you find a well-forged blade though, that is the heart of the katana. All the fittings and such are very easy to disassemble and change up on any katana made through traditional methods.

If you know what to look for you can actually get a well-crafted Chinese katana in the price range you're looking for, but you have to be careful and knowledgeable or you could also end up with a non-functional wall hanger. Of course I'm talking about the UPPER range that you listed, not the lower range. Don't even look at swords near $100 if you want more than a wall-hanger.

First of all, you need to know just what you're actually looking for in a Katana. There are functional cutters that use modern steel methods such as unfolded steel (folding steel into layers to beat out impurities is a traditional method found in Japanese swordsmithing), through-hardened (as opposed to the traditional clay tempering, aka differential hardening - yet another technique the Japanese learned from the Chinese), using modern steels like spring steel (high yield steel that will return to its original shape), tool steel (very hard, durable steel), or high-carbon steels like 1045, 1060, or 1095. 

In order to be functional as a sword, the steel must be heat-treated, which is usually defined as either Through Hardened or Differential Hardened. Differential hardened blades are clayed during the heat treat process in order to protect the back of the blade from over-hardening while allowing the edge to gain maximum hardness. That keeps the structural integrity of the blade without losing its edge. If swords were treated all the way as hard as they were in the past, then they would be brittle and break easily. That is why the clay tempering system was originally developed, was to prevent so many blades breaking in battle. Nowadays swords are made softer with durability in mind over edge hardness. If swords are hardened all the way to modern standards, then they will not have the hard edge that swords of old with very high carbon content had. Thus, differential hardening allows a modern sword owner to keep a better cutting edge than most other modern swords. In other words, in the past Differential Hardening was used to allow a softer back, but today it's used to keep a harder edge.  

That clay tempering process is what creates the hamon line (temperline) that runs along the edge of the blade between the two differentially tempered steels. However, this hamon line is such a classic signature of a Japanese sword (in fact, it's literally like the signature of the bladesmith as the clay is often carefully placed for an aesthetic pattern) that many through-hardened blades will have a hamon line artificially added through wire brushing or acid etching. Wire brushing is the worst, as it will leave scratches in the metal which will encourage rust. If a cheap sword has a hamon then the seller should tell you that the sword was "clay tempered", "differentially hardened", or has a "natural hamon". If they ever use the words "aesthetic hamon", then you know it's been faked. Again, that's not to say that a Through Hardened blade can't be a durable cutting sword... but if it's through hardened it should look like it's through hardened, in my opinon. It's only good if it's true to itself.  

Folding is another traditional method used in Japanese swords, known by the Chinese from at least the Han Dynasty and is thought to have been introduced to the Japanese around the Tang Dynasty, but its use is not so important anymore with the purity of modern steel. Back in the day other steels had many impurities which a folded steel blade did not. These days, folding steel is more often used to create an appealing hada (grain) in the steel, as the steel comes quite pure already and doesn't necessarily need folding to beat it out. Nonetheless, you can't go wrong with well folded steel. Generally a blade is folded up to about 10 times, which creates 1024 layers. These layers increase exponentially with each fold, so by 20 folds you have about a million layers, which offers no further benefit to the steel. 16 is about the maximum number of folds you're likely to see.

So if you want a traditional katana, then look for one that's clay tempered and hand forged in folded steel, then hand polished and sharpened (this will be done with water stones). Many Chinese forges in Longquan will perform these traditional procedures. However, although these traditional methods are certainly desired they are not a "necessity" for a sword to be a durable, balanced, good cutting sword for tameshigri (test cutting) or other practices (ie, iaido, etc.). I personally always go for the traditionally made swords, as that is simply my preference. Tameshigiri however is performed with many swords forged in non-traditional steels and reviews will show that such swords can be even more durable than a more "traditional" katana.

As for the rest of the sword... the samegawa panel should be genuine rayskin, as this is what helps to hold the ito (braid on the tsuka) in place. Silk is the best material for ito (with the best stretch and grip), but cotton is also good. Synthetic materials are of course not good. The sageo (the cord attached to the saya) should be a much heavier fabric than the ito. An authetic nihonto or a very well crafted katana should only need one mekugi (bamboo peg) to hold the blade into place with the tsuka, as the tsuka should be well fitted and tight. However, you can't expect that much from a cheaper Chinese katana, so common practice on a good "production katana" is to use two mekugi instead. Double pegs is a good thing to look for in the price range you're after, even though you'll see much better swords with only one mekugi. The mekugi should be bamboo and not wood. Granted, mekugi are easily replaced (and should be inspected on a regular basis), so if you did get one with wood mekugi you could replace that easily if the rest of the blade is to your liking. However, to find the rest of the blade suitable when even the mekugi are that cheap, is probably unlikely.   Tsubas may come in copper, brass, iron, or even steel. Iron is the most common material while copper is the most common "cheap" material used. There is nothing wrong with copper tsuba (or fuchi and kashira), but an iron tsuba, fuchi, and kashira will balance the blade more towards the tsuka and less towards the blade. About 5" from the tsuba is generally a preferred point-of-balance, but point-of-balance should really be a personal thing and not one that somebody else can tell you.

If a katana follows all these traditional processes and materials then it should hold up to regular use, and if any particular parts are inferior they can be replaced since a traditional katana is made to be disassembled. A samurai disassembles his katana to remove the koshirae (funiture, such as tsuba and tsuka) every time he sharpens or maintains it, and stores it in shirasaya (plain furniture) when not in use over a long period of time. These methods and materials were developed over countless generations of Japanese martial arts and study. To get most of these traditional processes done in a sword however, is time consuming and will generally keep a sword within the upper ranges of price. However, I have seen smiths who offer an awful lot for much less than you'd expect. If I go to the local retail stores in my town then I will not find a sword such as I described for less than $1200, even mass produced from a Chinese forge. However, I have seen a number of swords with these same specifications selling from online retailers for not more than your stated price range. So I do believe it is possible. Hopefully knowing a little more about what a "proper" katana should and shouldn't have will help to aid in that search.


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## jks9199

Just in case you think that was some sort of biased reply -- look through the Sword Arts forum.  Some variant of this question pops up with some regularity; there're even a few sticky posts there related to it.

This oughta get you started...
"Is my sword real?"  Some useful reading material and other links
The anatomy of a *wallhanger* katana
Best Place to Order Tournament Iaito from?
CAS Hanwei swords question
nee info about swords and swords martial arts
Please help me understand
New and old Katana


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## Christian Soldier

Man, that's messed up. I can get some of the nicest knives the world has to offer for under $500 but that will only buy me a wall hanger of a katana. That's very unfortunate. I want a user not just a wall hanger. I'm now considering the Swam Rat Waki just because It's a hard use blade I can actually afford. And it's custome made! Though it's a little shorter than I'd prefer. IDK, I guess I'll have to look into it awhile longer. Thanks.


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## pgsmith

> If a katana follows all these traditional processes and materials then it should hold up to regular use, ...


  I have to disagree quite loudly with this statement. Just because a sword handle is hand made does not mean that the hands that made it are any good at it. I've used a great many different Chinese made katana from just about every forge that is producing them over the years. The most common problem I've seen is that in most of the Chinese made swords, the blade does not align exactly with the tsuka. This is not good for a daily use blade as you will teach your body to compensate for the difference. The second most common problem I see is cracked handles. Either the wood used is too hard or the slot carved for the nakago is too small, but they force the handle on anyway resulting in a small crack which will widen with use. Third problem I see a lot is the ito loosening over time. You can use the best materials, but if it isn't wrapped tightly and evenly, it will loosen with use. While the first problem I mentioned is not catastrophic, the other two are and can result in a sharp blade flying across the room. 

  Only part of the expense of a modern made Nihonto is due to the blade itself. The rest of the high price is due to the number of highly skilled craftsmen (who first served a number of years as apprentices) it takes to properly assemble a Japanese sword. The Chinese companies are much less expensive because they cut corners by using machines where possible, and minimally trained workers for the parts where machines can't be used. The quality of the sword you get is directly attributable to the knowledge and experience of the various people working on it, and that quality can vary wildly from one sword to another in the same model line.


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## Sukerkin

As my fellow JSA practitioners here know by now, whenever a question comes up about where to obtain a good sword from, a bet of £10 that I will mention Tozando will probably net you £10 :lol:.

So, not being one to disappoint, I would suggest to *CS* that a browse around the Tozando site will give a good idea of what is available for what sort of price.

http://tozando.com/international/shopping.html


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## Flying Crane

The best blade, made by the god Vulcan himself, is not very useful without a good, well made, well fitted, durable and reliable hilt.


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## Neddog

pgsmith said:


> I have to disagree quite loudly with this statement. Just because a sword handle is hand made does not mean that the hands that made it are any good at it. I've used a great many different Chinese made katana from just about every forge that is producing them over the years. The most common problem I've seen is that in most of the Chinese made swords, the blade does not align exactly with the tsuka. This is not good for a daily use blade as you will teach your body to compensate for the difference. The second most common problem I see is cracked handles. Either the wood used is too hard or the slot carved for the nakago is too small, but they force the handle on anyway resulting in a small crack which will widen with use. Third problem I see a lot is the ito loosening over time. You can use the best materials, but if it isn't wrapped tightly and evenly, it will loosen with use. While the first problem I mentioned is not catastrophic, the other two are and can result in a sharp blade flying across the room.
> 
> Only part of the expense of a modern made Nihonto is due to the blade itself. The rest of the high price is due to the number of highly skilled craftsmen (who first served a number of years as apprentices) it takes to properly assemble a Japanese sword. The Chinese companies are much less expensive because they cut corners by using machines where possible, and minimally trained workers for the parts where machines can't be used. The quality of the sword you get is directly attributable to the knowledge and experience of the various people working on it, and that quality can vary wildly from one sword to another in the same model line.



I think you quite misunderstood the purpose of that statement. The whole idea behind identifying with the construction of a katana and knowing what a proper katana should and shouldn't have is to avoid those corner-cutting, machine-finished katana that you describe. Of course poorly-made katana exist, and I will add in much abundance. However, there are still many well-crafted blades made from dedicated forges who make their katanas all by hand from forge to polish to assembly, who fly under the radar at prices comparable to or cheaper than other poorly crafted, machine finished, mass-produced blades.

You say the cost of production is as much in the assembly as in the forge of the blade, but in reality the total cost of production itself is only a small portion of the retail price we're presented with. The big markup comes after it's left the forge, whether it's a large mass-production forge or a tiny, humble, low-overhead operation. A sword doesn't have to be a certified nihonto made in Japan to be hand-crafted by a dedicated swordsmith who cares about his work. I'm trying to educate Christian Soldier in order that he can make informed decisions for himself and get the best in his price range without being fooled by things which are not as they seem. He should be able to buy a katana based on the construction of the katana itself, not based entirely off the notoriety of a famed swordsmith or forge. 

It's also good to discern what parts are good about a blade and what's bad. Like for instance, you mentioned loose ito... well, that is easily fixed by re-doing the wrap yourself, and tsuka-maki happens to be a very useful skill that any owner of a Japanese katana would do good to learn for himself.

You can always throw money down to be sure of the quality of your sword with little research or risk. However, it takes knowledge and discretion to play in the poor man's field, but that doesn't mean the poor man does not have a right to play. Christian Soldier just wants a sword he can use.

I'm a professional photographer with tens of thousands of dollars worth of camera equipment. I would not expect any new photographer to jump in with that kind of investment. If a new photographer only has $1000-$1500 to spend on a new system, that system would never meet up to my needs for the work I do. However, in that price range there are many cameras which I would suggest and many others which I think would be a total waste of money and will only produce poor quality, sub-standard images for the price you pay. With my decades of experience in the field of photography, I can tell the difference. That new photographer cannot, and without guidance most likely will buy that junk camera that the fliers and store reps say is awesome.


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## Christian Soldier

There's one more qualifer I forgot to metion. Although I'm sure there are some great blades made by those little known manufactures, I perfer bigger name blades. I want to be able to read a lot of reviews on something before I buy it. Just a personal thing.


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## pgsmith

Neddog said:


> I think you quite misunderstood the purpose of that statement. The whole idea behind identifying with the construction of a katana and knowing what a proper katana should and shouldn't have is to avoid those corner-cutting, machine-finished katana that you describe. Of course poorly-made katana exist, and I will add in much abundance. However, there are still many well-crafted blades made from dedicated forges who make their katanas all by hand from forge to polish to assembly, who fly under the radar at prices comparable to or cheaper than other poorly crafted, machine finished, mass-produced blades.


No, there aren't. If you believe that, you are terribly misinformed.



Neddog said:


> You say the cost of production is as much in the assembly as in the forge of the blade, but in reality the total cost of production itself is only a small portion of the retail price we're presented with. The big markup comes after it's left the forge, whether it's a large mass-production forge or a tiny, humble, low-overhead operation. A sword doesn't have to be a certified nihonto made in Japan to be hand-crafted by a dedicated swordsmith who cares about his work. I'm trying to educate Christian Soldier in order that he can make informed decisions for himself and get the best in his price range without being fooled by things which are not as they seem. He should be able to buy a katana based on the construction of the katana itself, not based entirely off the notoriety of a famed swordsmith or forge.


And how is he supposed to know if a particular sword is of good quality or not? I've used a great number of them, and I can say from my own experience that you don't really understand what you're talking about. You show a good grasp of what you have read or been told, but you do not understand Japanese sword construction.



Neddog said:


> It's also good to discern what parts are good about a blade and what's bad. Like for instance, you mentioned loose ito... well, that is easily fixed by re-doing the wrap yourself, and tsuka-maki happens to be a very useful skill that any owner of a Japanese katana would do good to learn for himself.
> 
> You can always throw money down to be sure of the quality of your sword with little research or risk. However, it takes knowledge and discretion to play in the poor man's field, but that doesn't mean the poor man does not have a right to play. Christian Soldier just wants a sword he can use.
> 
> I'm a professional photographer with tens of thousands of dollars worth of camera equipment. I would not expect any new photographer to jump in with that kind of investment. If a new photographer only has $1000-$1500 to spend on a new system, that system would never meet up to my needs for the work I do. However, in that price range there are many cameras which I would suggest and many others which I think would be a total waste of money and will only produce poor quality, sub-standard images for the price you pay. With my decades of experience in the field of photography, I can tell the difference. That new photographer cannot, and without guidance most likely will buy that junk camera that the fliers and store reps say is awesome.



While you're entitled to whatever opinion you wish to hold, there are very few lower end Chinese made katana that I will allow through my dojo door because of the safety issues rampant in the inexpensive Chinese made swords. Personally, I've tried properly wrapping handles. I know people that do it for a living. there's a reason that the Japanese insist on a multi-year apprenticeship to learn the craft, and I find it doubtful that I would allow someone to wrap their own sword handle and use it in my dojo because it's pretty difficult to do correctly. Bear in mind that a junk camera is not likely to fly across the yard and impale your wife, but a poorly made sword will. 

There are probably hundreds of thousands of folks out there playing with these inexpensive Chinese made katana without killing themselves. However, I cannot condone them doing so, as I see it as an accident just waiting to happen. A sharp sword is a dangerous weapon designed for the sole purpose of killing people (which it has proven very good at throughout history), and it has no safety. A brief moment's inattention or an unexpected movement can cause serious damage to a person or those around him, and a sword wound can easily allow a person to bleed out in under a minute. Therefore, I always urge people to get legitimate instruction, and err on the side of caution. If they choose to ignore my advice, that is their prerogative, but I'm still going to give it as it is what I firmly believe.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Proper instruction, quality tools generally tend to turn out quality martial practitioner's.  Your best bet would be to have a teacher in one of the Japanese systems.  Spend time learning how to use the Japanese sword properly and then get good advice from your teacher on what to buy.  Other than that Pgsmith and Sukerkin always give quality advice in this department.  My advice would be to find a teacher, get a booken, eventually move up to an Iai-to (non sharpened training blade) and then when you are ready purchase a quality nihongi shinken.  If you buy cheap you get cheap and anything in the $100 to $500 dollar range is cheapo!  Save up and eventually buy some thing of quality and follow a teachers expert advice!  If your not interested in learning how to properly use one then you might want to look at buying some thing else!  Just my 02.


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## Neddog

pgsmith said:


> Therefore, I always urge people to get legitimate instruction, and err on the side of caution. If they choose to ignore my advice, that is their prerogative, but I'm still going to give it as it is what I firmly believe.



Yes, legitimate instruction is absolutely the key and nobody will argue with that. Control and respect of your sword at all times is the first rule to safety, and is much more important than whether your katana is hand-made in a Chinese forge versus a Japanese forge.


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## elder999

Christian Soldier said:


> Man, that's messed up. I can get some of the nicest knives the world has to offer for under $500 but that will only buy me a wall hanger of a katana..



No, you can't. You can certainly get a_ good _knife for that price, but a great many of the nicest the world has to offer are handmade by various makers and smiths around the world, and not available at prices like that.

My everyday carry is a Ken Onion Leek-it cost me less than $100, and, except for the steel being somehwat brittle, it's a good knife-it's the right size for my work environment can maintain a pretty fair edge, and if I have to part with it, it's easy to replace. 

The last knife I made and sold fetched $3800, and, as makers go, I'm nobody of any consequence.....

In the matter of a katana, things are way more complicated than knives-best to simply* get what your teacher says* to get, and leave it at that.....


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## jks9199

elder999 said:


> No, you can't. You can certainly get a_ good _knife for that price, but a great many of the nicest the world has to offer are handmade by various makers and smiths around the world, and not available at prices like that.
> 
> My everyday carry is a Ken Onion Leek-it cost me less than $100, and, except for the steel being somehwat brittle, it's a good knife-it's the right size for my work environment can maintain a pretty fair edge, and if I have to part with it, it's easy to replace.
> 
> The last knife I made and sold fetched $3800, and, as makers go, I'm nobody of any consequence.....
> 
> In the matter of a katana, things are way more complicated than knives-best to simply* get what your teacher says* to get, and leave it at that.....



You can get a decent knife for a few hundred.  You can even get some custom knives in that range, if there's nothing too special or complicated, more just made to order.  A knife has a tiny fraction of the steel of a katana -- and generally are much more directly and simply made.  (There are exceptions...)

Honestly -- the truth is that you don't even want a live blade until you've trained for some time.  The exact line will vary from teacher to teacher, but it's often on the order of years.  The typical progression is bokken (wooden sword), iato (edgeless metal sword), ken (live blade).   Western Martial Arts will do something similar.


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## elder999

jks9199 said:


> You can get a decent knife for a few hundred. .




I agree-he said "nicest in the world," and I just pointed out that-at that price-his standard can't be that high......:lol:


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## Christian Soldier

elder999 said:


> I agree-he said "nicest in the world," and I just pointed out that-at that price-his standard can't be that high......:lol:



My standards are pretty high. Heck I'm pretty darn sure you can get a hard use knife that will last a life time and sharpen well (Kabar, Ontario, etc) for less than $100! 

Blind horse knives is a Custom and semi custom knife company that sells all of their top notch knives for less than 500. Cold Steel's best knives are also around or less than 500. I cannot see the reasoning behing buying a blade that cost more than a grand. The only reason I can see paying more for a knife is if it is famous or something but I just can't see getting any better performace or durability past a certain point. Unless it's made buy an old japanese guy that's actually decendent of a samurai, it's simply not worth it. For me at least.

Unless The knife you made was covered in gold or perhaps had the hope dimond embeded in the handle. I'd say the guy got ripped off. You can get* 2* custom 1911s for that price! With Custom Handles and small machined and hand fitted parts!

I'm not planning on buying a katana for at least another year, I just wanted to see if you guys had any good suggestions. Sorry if I upset you.

Just MHO. I guess I'll stick to kukris for a while.


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## elder999

Christian Soldier said:


> My standards are pretty high. Heck I'm pretty darn sure you can get a hard use knife that will last a life time and sharpen well (Kabar, Ontario, etc) for less than $100!



Kabar makes a good knife-have for years and years. Casio makes a lot of good watches. Subaru makes a decent automobile.

You see where I'm going with this?




Christian Soldier said:


> Blind horse knives is a Custom and semi custom knife company that sells all of their top notch knives for less than 500. Cold Steel's best knives are also around or less than 500. I cannot see the reasoning behing buying a blade that cost more than a grand. The only reason I can see paying more for a knife is if it is famous or something but I just can't see getting any better performace or durability past a certain point. Unless it's made buy an old japanese guy that's actually decendent of a samurai, it's simply not worth it. For me at least.
> 
> Unless The knife you made was covered in gold or perhaps had the hope dimond embedded in the handle. I'd say the guy got ripped off. You can get* 2* custom 1911s for that price! With Custom Handles and small machined and hand fitted parts!



I only make a few knives a year, and most of my clients are word of mouth-I turn away about twice as many. When that rather large fellow came to me, and we discussed the knife he wanted, and the materials he was interested in, and the process he desired, _we agreed upon a price_, once I'd agreed to make a knife for him-I don't make knives for just anyone.

At the time, my salary was only about $45 an hour. The knife took between 80 and 100 hours, so just on the basis of my time, it was worth that much, but I didn't charge that much for shoptime at that time.

It was a 15" damascus bowie, hand-forged by me, full tang-boron treated, and other metals in the mix that I'm not going to speak of here, but something close to 90% carbon steel.

The handle-custom measured for the client-was made-by me- of fossilized mastadon ivory.

There were no jewels to speak of, really, just a couple of polished obsidian chips for the titanium hilt, and to peg into the titanium handle rivets.

This was, of course, much more than a "nice" knife: I guarantee that even today, years later, if that fellow has taken care of the knife and it has the kind of edge I showed him, he can hack through a 4"X4', then cut through 4" of manila hemp rope and still slice hairs off his arm. It was a beautiful piece, but it was meant to be used. 

When the blade was nearly ready, he came to my shop to finish with the process he paid for-I won't bother offending your Christian sensibilities, suffice to say that there was chanting involved-he really didn't pay nearly as much for that part as I did.

If you could purchase the like from Mike Ruth, Johnny Stout, Paul Baker or even Dale Baxter-guys who have a name (I know, you haven't heard of any of them, look them up) they'd likely have charged a lot more back then, and forget about it today-you'd have an 18 month wait for a blade like that, and pay up the wazoo-never mind the...er...._spiritual_ aspects that attract most of my clientele-hell, I'm not even a certified master bladesmith, yet.....

Of course, I make a few plain old "_nice_ knives" every year, just for practice-some wind up as Christmas gifts, or giveaways at ceremonies, and some get sold-never for much less than $650, and never to anyone who hasn't been vetted and proven that they'll take proper care of it.




Christian Soldier said:


> I'm not planning on buying a katana for at least another year, I just wanted to see if you guys had any good suggestions. Sorry if I upset you.



I don't think you upset anyone, least of all me. It's like that pen thread I started, though: I have a Mont Blanc pen right now-I paid a little less than $1,000 for it, and I got a deal-it's just a pen, and more than just a pen- I started trying those others to avoid the tactical thing, and have something nice and _practical_, as well as attractive and stealthy, but, just as my Rolexes are watches, and more than _just_ watches,comparing one of *my* knives to "semi-custom," or  (shudder!) Cold Steel, is like comparing a Casio to a Rolex.....okay, maybe a Casio to an Omega.....:lol:....a Subaru to a Cadillac.........a Bic to a Mont Blanc......you get the idea, here? 

And I'm just a hobby knifemaker, for now-when I retire, I'll open a commercial dojo and a semi-commercial shop-I'll still be really selective about who I  sell to.



Christian Soldier said:


> Just MHO. I guess I'll stick to kukris for a while.



Do you know kukhuris? As they go, Cold Steel makes a real nice machete. :lol: There are some Indian spring-steel knockoffs that are okay to abuse, and then there's the real deal-you have the real deal?


----------



## Chris Parker

Two things strike me as we go through this question again... 

Firstly, and most importantly, Dan. You've been asked in the thread already, but I haven't seen an answer. When you say you want a katana to "use", what do you mean? Use it for what? And, related to that, what experience do you have with swordsmanship (particularly Japanese)? Do you have any training under an instructor at all, or are you planning on getting some before you buy the sword (here's a hint: if you're not currently with an instructor, we won't suggest a sword. If you're waiting to get an instructor, but are looking at a sword for ideas now, wait until you get an instructor and follow their advice. And if you already have an instructor, talk to them)? Can you answer these so we know what we're advising on?

Secondly, Ned. You're showing some rather odd ideas here... and your profile states that you are a beginner in Battojutsu, as well as listing Iaijutsu, Iaido, Kenjutsu, and Kendo. It's a little odd to have such a list, who are you training with? Just trying to get an idea of where some of your ideas are coming from.


----------



## Christian Soldier

Allright, Allright, I get your point. I'm content with a sub $500 blade, that's just me. I personally use a bic pen almost every day and I'm fairly certain I could still kill someone with it if I had to, and it was free! 
I'm also wearing a watch that sombody lost and I found, also free and still tells time just as well as yours.
I'm content with those things. If you aren't fine, it's your money. I'm just saying there are many very well made knives that can be bought for less than $500 and, in tha hands of a knowledgable user, will work as well as knives that are much more expensive. Though they might not looks as nice. For me, functions and comfortability are more important than aesthetics anyway.

That knife you described sounds pretty amazing, do you have any pictures?

The CS Machete is just a KLO and that blade's much thinner than my prefference. I have the Ontario Kukri now which I like a lot, it's a good user/starter kukri. Everntually I'll probably get a nicer one from HI or some similar company.

You have convinced me I don't need a Katana as much as I thought.


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## Chris Parker

So.... about those questions, Dan?


----------



## Christian Soldier

Chris Parker said:


> So.... about those questions, Dan?




Sorry about that, I was writing my post in responce to elder's post and I didn't see yours.

I don't want a sword that just looks pretty but something I can cut tatami mats with and the like and is 'battle ready', if that makes sense.

No, I don't have any formal training with swords. I have a few years of knife training, but unfortunately that's the best I can get without traveling a couple hours. 

  Again, it was a *future endevor *and I was just looking through my options now and was dissapointed, so I figured I'd ask you guys about swords. _If_ I do continue down the sword MA path, I'll probably get a Bokken first. But when I am spending that much money, I like to have a *lot* of time to think about it first. Hence why I am asking now.

If you absolutely refuse to suggest a sword, I understand. I just wanted to look into it (japanese swords and and Sword Arts) a little bit first before I dived in.

If this doesn't explain things very well, let me know, and I'll answer any other questions you might have.


----------



## Chris Parker

Cool. Your first step, then, isn't looking for a sword, it's looking for an instructor. There's a number of reasons for this, including the fact that, not having any experience, you really won't know what you're looking for (no matter what others tell you, or how many reviews you read... I mean, you talk about "big name" swords, which really doesn't mean anything. There are mass-producers, and there are reputable suppliers, but they can be very far apart), and there's a big chance that whatever you pick up simply won't "make the cut" in whatever school you end up in. Do you want to spend a few hundred dollars on a sword only to be told (when you find an instructor) that it's terrible, and not to be used in the class at all (and, for the record, I've said the same thing to my own students, who bought things without consulting, and made pretty big mistakes)? Then you have the issues of safety, as you're not versed on what you'd need to do to take care of the sword, or yourself. You have no training in safe handling of the weapon, or anything related.

Really, the best advice we can offer is to find an instructor, and then ask them these questions. Specific schools can have certain preferences for dimensions of swords, others will leave it to be a more personal choice, and so on. You might also be interested to know that not all schools will even do tameshigiri (test cutting), so there may be no need to ever get a shinken (sharp, real sword).


----------



## frank raud

Christian Soldier said:


> Man, that's messed up. I can get some of the nicest knives the world has to offer for under $500 but that will only buy me a wall hanger of a katana. That's very unfortunate. I want a user not just a wall hanger. I'm now considering the Swam Rat Waki just because It's a hard use blade I can actually afford. And it's custome made! Though it's a little shorter than I'd prefer. IDK, I guess I'll have to look into it awhile longer. Thanks.



Let's look at your math. $500.00 for a knife with an 8" blade comes to $62.50 per inch of cutting blade. You mentioned Blind Horse Knives, they charge around $40.00 per inch of cutting blade(looking at their workhorse models). But when it comes to a katana, with an approx 28" blade, you think paying more than $14 an inch is outrageous?


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## Langenschwert

Christian Soldier said:


> No, I don't have any formal training with swords. I have a few years of knife training, but unfortunately that's the best I can get without traveling a couple hours.



A couple of hours? That ain't nothin' son. I've travelled thousands of miles for training, and a two hour commute for good JSA training isn't that unusual. If you can only make it to a dojo once a month due to travel difficulties, that's still not so bad. 

Finding good swordsmanship instruction takes work and time. There's a lot of BS out there and chances are you'll run into it before you find something good. Take your time, and realize that getting swordsmanship instruction requires a lot more work than signing up at a local Tae Kwon Do school.

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Christian Soldier

It's just not worth it for me. I'm just a high school student, and I don't have that kind of money. I wouldn't dream of signing up at a TKD school. _If _I do get into it, I'll buy a ton of books on the subject and a boken and start reading. I can learn really well that way and it saves me from having to spend a lot of money to sort through all of the 'BS' schools and teachers.


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## Chris Parker

Christian Soldier said:


> It's just not worth it for me. I'm just a high school student, and I don't have that kind of money. I wouldn't dream of signing up at a TKD school. _If _I do get into it, I'll buy a ton of books on the subject and a boken and start reading. I can learn really well that way and it saves me from having to spend a lot of money to sort through all of the 'BS' schools and teachers.



No, you can't "learn really well that way". At all. No-one can (without some serious amounts of experience behind you, to placate Ken). You simply won't have the ability to differentiate what is needed from what isn't, no matter how well written the book is. I appreciate that you're in high school (for God's sake, then, DON'T GET A SWORD!!!), but if you're serious, wait until you can get an instructor. If it's not possible right now, wait. There are no short cuts.

To give an indication of the lack of knowledge already, you mentioned that you'd consider paying larger amounts of money for a sword if the swordsmith was "an old Japanese guy that was actually descendant from the samurai".. uh, gotta tell you, swordsmith's weren't samurai, they were artisans. The samurai were a different social class entirely.

But, to emphasize to the maximum, do not get a sword, do not think you can learn from a book, and realize that you're very, very young, and can afford to wait.

EDIT: Just to make my point, I was in a martial arts store recently (big surprise to those who know me...), and came across a book that was being sold there - http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Samurai-Sword-Cary-Nemeroff/dp/0804839557

I spent the next 20 minutes railing against the book, as it's written by a complete charlatan, who has no business being anywhere near a sword, let alone claiming to be able to teach the usage of such a weapon. The entire book is rife with completely terrible information, bad techniques, poorly researched ideas, and worse. The people working in the store said "But it says he's a 10th Dan... doesn't that mean he's good? I mean, someone must have awarded him that rank.". Uh, no. Completely useless sod who self promoted (through a pay-for-grade group). Odds are you'd pick up that book, and not have a clue that what you're reading is total garbage.


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## Koryu Rich

Christian Soldier said:


> It's just not worth it for me. I'm just a high school student, and I don't have that kind of money. I wouldn't dream of signing up at a TKD school. _If _I do get into it, I'll buy a ton of books on the subject and a boken and start reading. I can learn really well that way and it saves me from having to spend a lot of money to sort through all of the 'BS' schools and teachers.



Wait.

Get yourself in a position where finance and distance is not too much of an issue then look for a teacher, this will require some background reading on your part and perhaps a little bit of networking so that you can find a good teacher.

You aren't going to get much out of a book for various reasons and that is assuming you can even find one which will cover the specific teachings of the ryu-ha you wish to study.

You do have a few ideas of which ryu-ha interest you..........don't you? 

Apart from the issue of learning at a technical level you also need to consider the safety aspects of using a sword, you need to be able to train in such a way that keeps you and those who may be around you safe.

That is best accomplished by having a teacher yell at you when you do dumb stuff and by ingraining good habits through keiko.

The interaction between you, your teacher and fellow students is very important, IMO, this can play as much a part in learning these traditional arts as spending hours swinging the weapon.

If you want books then invest in some good background reading at learn about just what may be expected of you when you commence training.

Have you given much thought to what benefits you as a student can bring to the Dojo?


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## Christian Soldier

Clearly I underestimated this training and the sword. My apologies.


I now have almost no desire to train in these sword using martial arts or to buy a sword. I've said this a few times, I was really just barely touching the surface to see if I wanted to further look into this. Now, I don't. I'll stick to what I know and just work to get good at that. I've decided I'm not ready to try anything like this anytime soon.

Thanks for your insight.


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## Chris Parker

Okay, let's take this to where it should be, then.

You're interested in sword. Honestly, for those of us who train in them, we think that's fantastic, and are more than happy, even eager, to help and encourage you in your interest. But you need to understand that that doesn't mean that we're going to encourage, endorse, or even condone what we consider to be needlessly dangerous activities, purchases, or training approaches. There are just too many idiots out there who buy cheap, dangerous "swords" because they like the look of them, or think they're cool, and it's inevitably those idiots who get the governments around us up in arms trying to ban the weapons of our chosen art. We are more than happy to help guide you, but you will have to realize that we will give you the best answers of our experience, even if they aren't the answers you thought you would get, or were hoping for.

Now that that's out of the way, let's look at what you should actually be asking if you're interested in swordsmanship, particularly Japanese. As we said, the first thing to look for is an instructor... but before we get to that, I'd be asking what you know of Japanese swordsmanship at this point. Rich asked you if you had an idea of which Ryu-ha (traditional school) you were interested in. Did you have an answer for that? Bear in mind, of course, that many systems are simply not going to be close to you, or available, but to give you an idea, here are some clips of a range of traditions:





Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu





Yagyu Shinkage Ryu





Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage Ryu





Yakumaru Jigen Ryu





Ono-ha Itto Ryu





Kashima Shinryu





Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu

Plus many, many, many more... then we get to the Iai systems:





Mugai Ryu





Shinmuso Hayashizaki Ryu





Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu





Sekiguchi Ryu





Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu





Shingyoto Ryu

Then again, many of these systems feature a range of other aspects to their arts.

Finally, there are the more "common" sword arts, namely Kendo (realistically a sport with bamboo swords, so no need to get a real one), and Seitei Iaido (a solo sword drawing art).





Kendo





Seitei Iaido

Still, that should be enough to get you started in terms of understanding the range of sword systems out there, was this what you were after?


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## Langenschwert

Christian Soldier said:


> Clearly I underestimated this training and the sword. My apologies.
> 
> 
> I now have almost no desire to train in these sword using martial arts or to buy a sword. I've said this a few times, I was really just barely touching the surface to see if I wanted to further look into this. Now, I don't. I'll stick to what I know and just work to get good at that. I've decided I'm not ready to try anything like this anytime soon.
> 
> Thanks for your insight.



Hey, no one is here to discourage you from doing sword arts. We just want you to do it safely and well. The fact that you came here and asked questions is a GOOD sign. That's why we answered as we did. You're in high school. Awesome. Lots of time to learn and get good. There are any number of things you can do if you are interested in sword arts but can't train in a traditional school right now. Kendo, Fencing and Wrestling will all teach you body awareness, range and timing. That's all good stuff. Sword arts use all that. If you can wrestle really well, you can pretty much do anything you put your mind to, MA-wise. Also, training in any good sword art will help you when you start JSA. Many of the principles are the same. What if the only art you'll have access to for the next few years is Chinese swordsmanship? That's great too! Go do it and train hard! By the time you start JSA you'll (ideally) know the fundamentals of swordsmanship in general and can make a reasonable transition, provided you can "empty your cup" and do things "their way". I have to do that as I do both European and Japanese swordsmanship. They reinforce each other, but there are very important differences too that I have to keep straight. 

It's totally worth it in the long run though. The training changes you. That's the whole point. You came here seeking advice. You've found it. Take it in the spirit in which it was given, which is to help you and prevent you from making mistakes that will frustrate (any maybe injure) you. 

Best of luck, and keep at it.

Best regards,

-Mark


----------



## Christian Soldier

Thanks Chris, That was so much information it actually overloaded my computer. 

I didn't watch all of them (cause my comp kept freezing) but I found Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, Ono-ha Itto Ryu, and  Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu to be pretty cool. I figure since I am just starting out, it might be a good idea to start with a 'boken art' and then maybe continue with a live sword after some training.

These guys have a lot of technique, I am guessing they've been doing it awhile.


Yakumaru Jigen Ryu was pretty um, intriguing I guess. I'm sure there is some meaning behind the stick beating drill, I don't really know anything about these arts so maybe it's common and very helpfull to students, IDK.


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## Chris Parker

Ha, not a problem. Yeah, each of those arts has quite a history, and everything found there is for a reason. Katori Shinto Ryu is probably the most famous koryu (old system) around, and one of the most highly respected as well. It's teachings centre on the sword, but also include a range of other weapons, such as spear, naginata (a short blade on a long pole), bo (staff), shuriken (throwing spikes, not stars), unarmed combat (yawaragei), and a large syllabus of more "tactical" lessons and related information. You'd most likely need to move, unless you are very lucky to find a school nearby.

Ono-ha Itto Ryu was one of two official systems of the Tokugawa Shoguns. It is a very direct, very pragmatic system, with it's founder, Ono, being known as probably the better swordsman out of him and his counterpart (Yagyu Munenori, of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu), but his, uh, less happy persona had him put in second place. This school provides much of the technical approach for modern Kendo.

Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu was founded by the famous lone swordsman, Musashi Miyamoto. Again, a very pragmatic and direct system, there is a (relatively) small, and seemingly simple syllabus, but the techniques are incredibly difficult to do properly... and the mindset is key. As with all other arts listed here, it's unlikely that there is something just around the corner for you (other than possibly Kendo or Seitei Iaido, which would be a great start anyway).

Most of these systems will only ever use a bokken/bokuto. Ono-ha Itto Ryu will also use a form of shinai (bamboo sword), as will Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, and a few others. Katori Shinto Ryu primarily uses a bokuto for the majority of the training, other than for the Iai/Batto (sword drawing) methods. Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu is really only bokuto. It might be important to realise that the reason for that isn't so much that it's safer for the students, it's that it doesn't ruin your swords, and allows for a range of training methods that a real sword just wouldn't, such as the constant impact in a number of kata.

Yakumaru Jigen Ryu are from an area of Japan called Satsuma, where there was a major uprising at the beginning of the Meiji Restoration. Their training is largely based on strong striking, with the system having a teaching that a second strike shouldn't even be considered, as the enemy should be dead after the first cut. There are stories of the battles being strewn with the dead soldiers who had the unfortunate luck to encounter a Satsuma/Jigen Ryu swordsman... with the back of their own swords embedded in their own foreheads, having been struck back with such force that it killed them. The way they train can look a little odd to some, but believe me, you don't want to face them!


----------



## lklawson

elder999 said:


> It was a 15" damascus bowie, hand-forged by me, full tang-boron treated, and other metals in the mix that I'm not going to speak of here, but something close to 90% carbon steel.
> 
> The handle-custom measured for the client-was made-by me- of fossilized mastadon ivory.
> 
> There were no jewels to speak of, really, just a couple of polished obsidian chips for the titanium hilt, and to peg into the titanium handle rivets.


Please tell me you have pics posted!  <drool>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

I do have just one little bit to add to this discussion.  It is that many of us modern practitioners forget the historic difference "functional" weapons and high-end masterpieces.

For the vast majority of armies throughout history, most were armed with weapons that were "mass produced" (using whatever technology was available at the time).  The goal of most sword makers, for most swords, was to make a functional weapon.  It wouldn't break.  It would be balanced right for "most" people.  That sort of stuff.  They usually weren't junk that would come apart but they also usually weren't works of art.  They were functional *tools*.  You want a tool that will do the job, and last a long time before you eventually have to discard it as worn-out, broken down, scrap, to be replaced by one just as functional.

The rich, elite, and privileged could afford, or were given, the highest quality swords.  The lieutenant and sergeant got whatever the heck was issued to him, whatever his father left to him, or whatever he could afford.  "I'll sell my rod. I'll sell my reel. I'll even sell my spinning wheel.  To buy my love a sword of steel..."

As much as I lust after that blade that elder made, the simple fact is that the vast majority of Bowie Knives, historically speaking, that hit the U.S. were functional tools made by small, nearly subsistence, smiths or imported from Sheffield & the like. Of course, there were custom pieces made by master cutlers.  A Longhunter couldn't afford one of those, but an Arkansas legislator could.  So I don't get much heartburn when I use Coldsteel (or even cheaper) bowies.  One of my favorites is a Depeeka POS.  The fit and finish is HORRIBLE and I don't want to say what it took to get a good edge on it.  But the edge has held better than even the Ontario (another mass produced but decent bowie) and it's freaking sturdy.

Now, if a fella really wants to get in touch with historic sword arts, he'll spend some time using the "functional tools" too, even if he does lust after the $10,000 works of art.

Well, I'll leave off the rant for now.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## elder999

lklawson said:


> Please tell me you have pics posted! <drool>
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Nope. Sorry-I made that one almost 15 years ago, now. I think I have some 35mm slides around somewhere.

Besides, it's not mine; it's his.


It was really, really nice, though......

EDIT:It was summer, 2000, when I started that blade......

Someday I'll get around to posting some of my work, I guess, but it's not really a priority.....



lklawson said:


> I do have just one little bit to add to this discussion. It is that many of us modern practitioners forget the historic difference "functional" weapons and high-end masterpieces.



I think the fact that my "everyday carry" is a Ken Onion Leek got lost in all this somewhere-though I've posted as much a time or two elsewhere. I'd no more carry a bespoke piece-even one I made-everyday than I would wear one of my Rolexes.......sometimes, though....


----------



## pgsmith

> The rich, elite, and privileged could afford, or were given, the highest quality swords.


  But let's not forget that we are talking about katana here. The samurai of old Japan were the ones most likely to have a katana made. For most of their thousand year history, the samurai _were_ the rich, elite, and privileged.


----------



## lklawson

pgsmith said:


> But let's not forget that we are talking about katana here. The samurai of old Japan were the ones most likely to have a katana made. For most of their thousand year history, the samurai _were_ the rich, elite, and privileged.


Not necessarily.  A lot depends on period, of course, but for a long time many rank-and-file could carry a katana.  Just not daisho.

Of course, this also leaves aside the fact that pole-arms were considered more serviceable by nearly every pre-gunpowder army on the planet, but that's a different rant.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

elder999 said:


> Nope. Sorry-I made that one almost 15 years ago, now. I think I have some 35mm slides around somewhere.
> 
> Besides, it's not mine; it's his.
> 
> 
> It was really, really nice, though......
> 
> EDIT:It was summer, 2000, when I started that blade......
> 
> Someday I'll get around to posting some of my work, I guess, but it's not really a priority.....


Fair enough.



> I think the fact that my "everyday carry" is a Ken Onion Leek got lost in all this somewhere-though I've posted as much a time or two elsewhere. I'd no more carry a bespoke piece-even one I made-everyday than I would wear one of my Rolexes.......sometimes, though....


Yeah, I caught that.

My comment wasn't directed at you in particular, or, to be honest, anyone specifically.  Rather, there is sort of a "cult of the sword" which pervades swordsmanship of any stripe but is particularly rife within Japanese swordsmanship.  It is this nearly omnipresent cult-worship to which I address my comments.  Swords were tools, like every other battle implement, and considered less valuable than the man using them.  The vast majority were not works of functional art for the wealthy and were to be used, worn out, and (after a long and useful life) replaced.

I agree that there has always been a symbology to the sword.  I forget which group it was, Goths I think but maybe the Vandals (or even the Visigoths), but when a boy reached manhood, he was given a sword to symbolize his manhood and slaves, when freed, in the same society were given the same.  Then there was the Roman tradition of the Rudis.  But the swords given were not works of functional art, pattern welded, chased with silver, studded with gems, inlaid with gold.  They were functional and basic.

While I completely understand the natural human desire to own the nicest sword (knife, whatever) you can afford, I just find it to be a bit of a modern self-delusion to look down on someone who wants an "entry level" "beater" blade because that's what the vast vast majority of fighters throughout history had.  Heck, there's a lot of evidence to suggest that the "entry level beaters" that we have now are actually much higher quality than what the average classes had available to them.  Modern self-steels (as I'm sure you know) have vast amounts of engineering and chemistry as well as a quality control that was simply unattainable for "mass production" techniques historically.  Yes, the Master's blade could be every bit as good as modern steel, but we're not talking about the Duke's sword, we're talking about the Sergeant in the Duke's employ.

To be fair to the Cult of the Sword, I also have a similar rant for the Cult of the Gun, otherwise known as "gun snobs" who insist that if it isn't a Kimber .45ACP, then it's crap.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Christian Soldier

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, not a problem. Yeah, each of those arts has quite a history, and everything found there is for a reason. Katori Shinto Ryu is probably the most famous koryu (old system) around, and one of the most highly respected as well. It's teachings centre on the sword, but also include a range of other weapons, such as spear, naginata (a short blade on a long pole), bo (staff), shuriken (throwing spikes, not stars), unarmed combat (yawaragei), and a large syllabus of more "tactical" lessons and related information. You'd most likely need to move, unless you are very lucky to find a school nearby.
> 
> Ono-ha Itto Ryu was one of two official systems of the Tokugawa Shoguns. It is a very direct, very pragmatic system, with it's founder, Ono, being known as probably the better swordsman out of him and his counterpart (Yagyu Munenori, of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu), but his, uh, less happy persona had him put in second place. This school provides much of the technical approach for modern Kendo.
> 
> Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu was founded by the famous lone swordsman, Musashi Miyamoto. Again, a very pragmatic and direct system, there is a (relatively) small, and seemingly simple syllabus, but the techniques are incredibly difficult to do properly... and the mindset is key. As with all other arts listed here, it's unlikely that there is something just around the corner for you (other than possibly Kendo or Seitei Iaido, which would be a great start anyway).
> 
> Most of these systems will only ever use a bokken/bokuto. Ono-ha Itto Ryu will also use a form of shinai (bamboo sword), as will Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, and a few others. Katori Shinto Ryu primarily uses a bokuto for the majority of the training, other than for the Iai/Batto (sword drawing) methods. Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu is really only bokuto. It might be important to realise that the reason for that isn't so much that it's safer for the students, it's that it doesn't ruin your swords, and allows for a range of training methods that a real sword just wouldn't, such as the constant impact in a number of kata.
> 
> Yakumaru Jigen Ryu are from an area of Japan called Satsuma, where there was a major uprising at the beginning of the Meiji Restoration. Their training is largely based on strong striking, with the system having a teaching that a second strike shouldn't even be considered, as the enemy should be dead after the first cut. There are stories of the battles being strewn with the dead soldiers who had the unfortunate luck to encounter a Satsuma/Jigen Ryu swordsman... with the back of their own swords embedded in their own foreheads, having been struck back with such force that it killed them. The way they train can look a little odd to some, but believe me, you don't want to face them!



Yeah, I think the first one is the on I'd prefer most. I kinda figured Yakumaru Jigen Ryu was a very lethal art which is why I didn't judge them by what could be considered a silly drill by people who don't know the art. I'd be thrilled to be able to train with them as well. I'm a pretty good wood worker, I think I'm going to make a boken.


----------



## Chris Parker

Christian Soldier said:


> Yeah, I think the first one is the on I'd prefer most. I kinda figured Yakumaru Jigen Ryu was a very lethal art which is why I didn't judge them by what could be considered a silly drill by people who don't know the art. I'd be thrilled to be able to train with them as well. I'm a pretty good wood worker, I think I'm going to make a boken.



Hmm. I know we said we were encouraging you, but so you know, making a bokken isn't as easy as just carving wood. It needs to be balanced properly, the wood is typically aged so to remove moisture, meaning they won't splinter so easily, instead they "crush" on contact, the woods are specifically chosen for grain, consistency, and more. It takes quite a while to be able to make one. I'd more recommend buying one. If you want, you can then use that as a template for any you try to make (which should give you a more consistent result). 

So you know, a wide variety of Ryu have very specific bokken that they use, and you won't find them using the same as other schools... again, a school is the first step. And, really, although Katori Shinto Ryu is often a first choice, finding it isn't easy. Care to move to Japan?


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## pgsmith

> My comment wasn't directed at you in particular, or, to be honest, anyone specifically. Rather, there is sort of a "cult of the sword" which pervades swordsmanship of any stripe but is particularly rife within Japanese swordsmanship. It is this nearly omnipresent cult-worship to which I address my comments. Swords were tools, like every other battle implement, and considered less valuable than the man using them. The vast majority were not works of functional art for the wealthy and were to be used, worn out, and (after a long and useful life) replaced.


While that's true to a point, it misses (and dismisses) a lot of ground there. You can golf with a set of Walmart special clubs. You can drive where you want to go in a used Kia Rio. You can take serviceable photos with your cell phone. You can run down anyone that doesn't wish to settle for "cheap". However, "cheap" in any of those other things I mentioned is not likely to cause you to kill whoever happens to be standing near you when "cheap" fails. Most "cheap" katana that I've ever held have myriad compromises in their construction in order to reach the "cheap" price point. Some of the compromises were acceptable, many of them were not. I've had quite a few swords that I refused to let students use because they were fatally flawed in my view. Without proper experience, how is some kid supposed to know what a fatal flaw is and what is acceptable? The obvious answer is that he doesn't, so I tell them to stay away from "cheap" swords, so nobody dies. While its really no skin off my nose if the kids that come here to ask for advice end up killing themselves, or someone else, because their cheap sword shattered, or the handle cracked so the blade flew out, or the wrap came loose so the blade flew off, or the handle fit was bad so the mekugi failed and the blade flew off. However, I feel, as a koryu practitioner, that it is my duty to try and pass on what I've learned about swords, as much as they're willing to listen to anyway. I don't mind if you don't agree with that idea, but I will object if you attempt to dismiss it.

If swords were tools meant to be thrown away, as you so vehemently insist, why do we have so many remaining examples of Japanese swords made four or five hundred years ago? Did someone forget to take out the trash?  You can't lump entire cultures together, as they all viewed things differently. Likewise, you cannot dismiss afficionados of any stripe just because you don't happen to agree with their views. 

To each their own sir!


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## lklawson

pgsmith said:


> While that's true to a point, it misses (and dismisses) a lot of ground there. You can golf with a set of Walmart special clubs. You can drive where you want to go in a used Kia Rio. You can take serviceable photos with your cell phone.


I think that there is someone who is missing the point.



> You can run down anyone that doesn't wish to settle for "cheap".


What the heck are you talking about?  I didn't "run down" anyone.  I was railing against people who get snobbish about functional "beater" swords and giving some pretty well founded historical reasoning behind it (specifically, that "beater swords" were far more common than the "work of art" swords).



> While its really no skin off my nose if the kids that come here to ask for advice end up killing themselves, or someone else, because their cheap sword shattered, or the handle cracked so the blade flew out, or the wrap came loose so the blade flew off, or the handle fit was bad so the mekugi failed and the blade flew off. However, I feel, as a koryu practitioner, that it is my duty to try and pass on what I've learned about swords, as much as they're willing to listen to anyway.


Bit of melodrama there.




> I don't mind if you don't agree with that idea, but I will object if you attempt to dismiss it.


You seem to be taking this as a personal attack on you.



> If swords were tools meant to be thrown away, as you so vehemently insist,


You are misquoting me.  I said that they were meant to be used and, when worn out from use, then discarded.  It's not as if I claimed "so vehemently" that they were considered McDonalds Happy Meal toys.  I said they were tools.



> why do we have so many remaining examples of Japanese swords made four or five hundred years ago?


The same reason we have so many swords from every-freaking-where.  A well made, well cared for tool will last centuries.  I have three myself from different cultures.  Just as I have some perfectly serviceable firearms pushing a century.  Just as I have some knapped stone tools hundreds of years old.  Just as I have a bronze sword 1,500 years old.  A well made tool made of a durable material.



> Did someone forget to take out the trash?


<sigh>  Yes.  Just as someone forgot to throw away my Astra 400 <eyeroll>



> You can't lump entire cultures together, as they all viewed things differently.


In many ways, you actually can.  Armies and soldiers using similar tools have similar objectives, similar challenges, and similar outcomes and views.  From the books, articles, and various other sources I've read, it appears that the veneration of the Katana really didn't come into vogue until the relative extended peace of the Shogunate, when the human and material resources could be spared for such diversions. Prior to that, it was a tool.  If it broke, you replaced it.  If it didn't, you cared for it.  If it lasted, well, it was still a perfectly serviceable sword so you'd pass it down to your son.  This same exact progression happened in Medieval Europe, in the earlier transitional time period, in Rome, and probably with the Etruscans too though I have no proof.  This is exactly the same thing that happened with carpenter tools. Well made.  Well cared for.  Passed down to children. Replaced when worn out.



> Likewise, you cannot dismiss afficionados of any stripe just because you don't happen to agree with their views.
> 
> To each their own sir!


I really suggest that you re-read what I wrote.  Unless you self-identify as being part of The Cult of the Sword, then I've already specified that I didn't direct this at you or anyone else specifically posting in this thread.

Do some historical research, sir, and some research on both psychology, and large army strategies.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Chris Parker

Honestly, I think both of you are right here. Kirks absolutely right that, over history, many blades were created that were really little more than workhorses, which is why, when appraising a sword, it's important to realize that many swords from times of heavy warfare would be these lower quality blades. However, and this is where Paul's comments come into it, there's a huge difference between cheaper blades made as workhorses during warfare and cheaply put together items which are potentially dangerous to the user and those around them due to short cuts taken to achieve a price point.

Do we agree on that?


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## lklawson

Chris Parker said:


> Do we agree on that?


Without a doubt.  Historically, functional "workhorse" blades were not slipshod crap.  They were made as cheaply as possible while still being functional.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Christian Soldier

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. I know we said we were encouraging you, but so you know, making a bokken isn't as easy as just carving wood. It needs to be balanced properly, the wood is typically aged so to remove moisture, meaning they won't splinter so easily, instead they "crush" on contact, the woods are specifically chosen for grain, consistency, and more. It takes quite a while to be able to make one. I'd more recommend buying one. If you want, you can then use that as a template for any you try to make (which should give you a more consistent result).
> 
> So you know, a wide variety of Ryu have very specific bokken that they use, and you won't find them using the same as other schools... again, a school is the first step. And, really, although Katori Shinto Ryu is often a first choice, finding it isn't easy. Care to move to Japan?



I'm a bowyer so I'm pretty familiar with wood properites, stress, and seasoning. I'll have to look more into what woods can be used but I'm thinking hickory and oak would serve admirably.

Different Boken? Are you serious? There is just no end to this diversity! At this stage in my life, moving to japan isn't really an option, nor would I want to even if I could. Is it possible to learn just from seminars? The closest school is at least 4 hours away.

Also one last requirement for a school that may signifantly limit my choices, IDK. 
I'm a Christian and I feel very uncomfortable with any of the 'eastern myticsm' or 'Chi' stuff, so if there are any schools that focus more on the sword and technique than the internal part of things, that would be kind of mandatory.


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## Chris Parker

Oh boy.... ready for this?



Christian Soldier said:


> I'm a bowyer so I'm pretty familiar with wood properites, stress, and seasoning. I'll have to look more into what woods can be used but I'm thinking hickory and oak would serve admirably.



Oak (Japanese White or Red Oak) are traditional woods, as are a range of more exotic ones, such as Sunuke. Hickory has become a staple for North American bokken makers, as it shares many of the same properties as Japanese White Oak.

That said, I'd still recommend waiting until you got some experience in what makes a good bokken, before trying. You'll get a sense of the balance required, the "feel", and so on, which you won't have yet. Intending no offence, but you are still in High School, so I'm not going to be so sure of your exposure and seasoning (ha!) in terms of woodworking.



Christian Soldier said:


> Different Boken? Are you serious? There is just no end to this diversity! At this stage in my life, moving to japan isn't really an option, nor would I want to even if I could. Is it possible to learn just from seminars? The closest school is at least 4 hours away.



Oh, absolutely different bokken! Here's a small taste of some of the variety found: http://www.bokkenshop.com/category_s/43.htm

I wasn't really being too serious with my comment about you moving to Japan, not at your stage and age, but the important thing is to realize that that might be your only option when it all comes down to it. When you mention the closest school as being 4 hours away, which school is that? Do you have a link to a website?

Learning from seminars, well, yes and no. Attending seminars, and continuing to work on what is learnt there as part of a study group is feasible, but learning from seminars exclusively, I'm less sure of. The majority of training and learning is in keiko (practice), and that needs to be kept up inbetween seminars.



Christian Soldier said:


> Also one last requirement for a school that may signifantly limit my choices, IDK.
> I'm a Christian and I feel very uncomfortable with any of the 'eastern myticsm' or 'Chi' stuff, so if there are any schools that focus more on the sword and technique than the internal part of things, that would be kind of mandatory.



There aren't any that will make religious demands on you, demanding that you worship anything other than your own choice and faith, however they will all be highly influenced by the religious environment in which they grew. Schools such as Katori Shinto Ryu have a lot of Shinto and Buddhist influence (a particular form of Buddhism known as Mikkyo), Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu is intimately linked to the Buddhist Sutras in order to understand it's deeper levels, and so on. The point of learning a Koryu is to learn their approach to everything, from the way you use a weapon through to the way you live your life on a daily basis, and the way you think about things. If you can't reconcile that, then Koryu won't be for you, as your personal biases would come in as a corrupting influence on the Ryu, as you really can't pick and choose which aspects of a Ryu you'll follow, and which you'll ignore. It's really all or nothing.

However, something like Kendo can be good that way. As it's dominantly a sporting approach, there isn't the need for much examination on the spiritual aspects (don't get me wrong, they are certainly there, but you can be more selective in which you adopt and which you don't). Same with Seitei Iaido. But I would like to point out something... none of the teachings that you seem concerned about actually conflict with Christian belief or philosophy, unless you decide they do. In Japan it's considered normal to follow a range of religious observances, with no conflict at all. Additionally, concepts such as "Ki" (that's the Japanese pronunciation, by the way) can be thought of as a expression of unified intention behind your action... it's really not much more "mystical" than that. But frankly, if you're wanting to avoid "Eastern mysticism", why go for an Eastern art? It's going to have aspects of an Eastern (in this case, Japanese) heritage and belief system. It's a bit arrogant to insist that they don't, really. It'd be like my turning up at your church for the social gathering, but asking that you don't talk about any of that God stuff, as it conflicts with my beliefs. It just doesn't make sense.


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## Flying Crane

Christian Soldier said:


> Is it possible to learn just from seminars? The closest school is at least 4 hours away.



Just a quick comment, something to think about.  Personally, I am not a fan of learning thru seminars, and I'll explain why.

In order to properly learn something like this, you need to have an ongoing relationship with a good teacher.  This means that you meet regularly for training and instruction, and a very important part of that process is getting corrections.  When you first learn something like this, you will not be doing it properly or correctly.  That takes time to develop as your skill improves.  It is a gradual process, and you need a good teacher who can repeatedly correct what you are doing, until you develop the skill and reach a point where you are doing it correctly.  Without that ongoing relationship, you will not get the necessary feedback and corrections and instruction that you need.

When you go to a seminar you spend a couple hours, or a weekend, or perhaps even a week, studying with someone who is attempting to teach you an aspect of an art, but that person is not your instructor, is not someone with whom you have an ongoing relationship.  When the seminar is over, he will leave and you may never see him again, or you may see him a year from now when he comes back to do another seminar, or whatever the case may be.  In that short period of time, a couple hours or a weekend or a week, you will not learn the material deeply, you will not be able to do it correctly and properly, you will not fully understand it.  But you do not have that ongoing relationship to get the corrections and feedback necessary to develop the skill.  

So what happens is, you've learned something poorly and your only recourse is to continue to practice it poorly.  This develops bad habits that you aren't even aware of because you have nobody to give you corrections and give you ongoing guidance.  Over time you may even begin practicing it worse than how you learned it, because it's easy to drift into more and more bad habits without that guidance.  So in the end you have something that you don't understand, that you practice poorly, and you have no way to ever get it corrected.

If you have a solid background already in the method, and you attend seminars with visiting instructors in the same method, and you have a teacher with whom you can continue to train afterwards, then seminars can give benefits.  But if you do not have the background and you are alone in your practice without guidance, I do not see them as a good way to learn.  This approach can be misleading because you believe you have learned something when in fact, you have not.


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## Christian Soldier

Hey Chris, here is the school I found. http://www.aikido-dojo.com/samurai-sword/
I see your point about the Easten influnce, perhaps it's just not for me. 

Again, all of you have been very helpfull. There's no way I could have figured all this stuff out myself.

Thank you.


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## elder999

Christian Soldier said:


> Hey Chris, here is the school I found. http://www.aikido-dojo.com/samurai-sword/
> .



Not a good choice. I'd call Cary Nemeroff a_ Proverbs 26:8 _Soke......:lol:


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## pgsmith

> Hey Chris, here is the school I found. http://www.aikido-dojo.com/samurai-sword/
> I see your point about the Easten influnce, perhaps it's just not for me.



It's pretty interesting that you say that you are worried about the Eastern influence, since this sword art is invented by westerners and has absolutely no ties with Japan. I would advise anyone to avoid it. Not because of any eastern mysticism it may contain, but simply because the examples that I have seen of their made up sword art were truly horrible.



> Bit of melodrama there.


Absolutely not. I have heard two personal accounts of this very thing. In one, a cheap sword shattered and one of the resulting pieces flew over the roof of a house and into the leg of a five year old girl in the front yard. A second one had the handle fail and the blade flew across and impaled the fellow who was standing 15 feet away in the chest. I've personally seen one wrap come loose in mid-swing and the fellow's sword went flying across the practice hall. Not melodramatic in the least actually.



> I really suggest that you re-read what I wrote. Unless you self-identify as being part of The Cult of the Sword, then I've already specified that I didn't direct this at you or anyone else specifically posting in this thread.


Depends upon what you consider a cult. You see, you keep specifying "beater sword" and, to the vast majority of people that aren't connected with the sword arts, that means a one or two hundred dollar sword from China. I personally think that no one should even _think_ of doing anything with those swords, as they are mainly horrible accidents waiting to happen. I have real problems with the people that come on-line and say that it's just fine to use these poorly made, poorly balanced, vaguely sword-like objects for anything. Heck, I don't think they're even decent enough to hang on the wall as a decoration. The OP has zero sword experience, and I just want it to be perfectly clear that if someone wants a functional Japanese sword, they are going to have to pay a much higher price than "low end beater sword" to be assured of having one that will continue to function safely in its intended capacity. If you consider that as being part of the "Cult of the Sword", then you can count me in.



> Do some historical research, sir, and some research on both psychology, and large army strategies.


I've done more than my share of Japanese historical research thank you very much. That research tells me that swords actually had very little to do with large army strategies throughout the thousand year history of the samurai. The samurai themselves were mainly horse archers, and the conscript armies were spearmen. Although they were issued 'beater" swords, very few actually used them, and even fewer actually knew _how_ to use them. The way the Japanese use it, the sword is very difficult to learn well and was mainly the province of the samurai caste, who could devote the time required to learn it properly. When not in use, the samurai treated their swords in an almost reverent fashion, which is the main reason that there are many thousands of antique Japanese swords still in existence, as opposed to the hundreds of antique European swords. It's not at all unusual to see many examples of beautifully maintained Japanese swords from the early 1600's for sale. It *is* unusual to see an example of a beautifully maintained sword of that age from any other culture. This is why I say you can't just lump all medieval cultures into the same pot and call them equal, even if they had the same goals and warring factions.


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## Sanke

Loce1934 said:


> I would recommend the **** Sword **(R******) *
> **Quoted Post Removed- RMH***



Well that was blatant. Free advertising isn't allowed on this site, nor is spamming. I'd suggest talking to Bob Hubbard if you're interested in advertising here, otherwise you're likely to get banned. 

An for the record, I most certainly wouldn't recommend this...


Sanke on the move.


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## elder999

Loce1934 said:


> I would recommend the *Ryumon Phoenix Katana Sword **(Ryumon* *RY3201) *




:lfao:..................just.............:lfao:

Really? 5, 4, 3, 2, 1....bye-bye!


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## Chris Parker

Flying Crane said:


> Just a quick comment, something to think about.  Personally, I am not a fan of learning thru seminars, and I'll explain why.
> 
> In order to properly learn something like this, you need to have an ongoing relationship with a good teacher.  This means that you meet regularly for training and instruction, and a very important part of that process is getting corrections.  When you first learn something like this, you will not be doing it properly or correctly.  That takes time to develop as your skill improves.  It is a gradual process, and you need a good teacher who can repeatedly correct what you are doing, until you develop the skill and reach a point where you are doing it correctly.  Without that ongoing relationship, you will not get the necessary feedback and corrections and instruction that you need.
> 
> When you go to a seminar you spend a couple hours, or a weekend, or perhaps even a week, studying with someone who is attempting to teach you an aspect of an art, but that person is not your instructor, is not someone with whom you have an ongoing relationship.  When the seminar is over, he will leave and you may never see him again, or you may see him a year from now when he comes back to do another seminar, or whatever the case may be.  In that short period of time, a couple hours or a weekend or a week, you will not learn the material deeply, you will not be able to do it correctly and properly, you will not fully understand it.  But you do not have that ongoing relationship to get the corrections and feedback necessary to develop the skill.
> 
> So what happens is, you've learned something poorly and your only recourse is to continue to practice it poorly.  This develops bad habits that you aren't even aware of because you have nobody to give you corrections and give you ongoing guidance.  Over time you may even begin practicing it worse than how you learned it, because it's easy to drift into more and more bad habits without that guidance.  So in the end you have something that you don't understand, that you practice poorly, and you have no way to ever get it corrected.
> 
> If you have a solid background already in the method, and you attend seminars with visiting instructors in the same method, and you have a teacher with whom you can continue to train afterwards, then seminars can give benefits.  But if you do not have the background and you are alone in your practice without guidance, I do not see them as a good way to learn.  This approach can be misleading because you believe you have learned something when in fact, you have not.



While not necessarily disagreeing with you, in a number of instances, this is a fairly common way of training in these systems. Bear in mind that you are dealing with some arts that really have a fairly limited curriculum in a number of cases, so you might only have a few kata to remember (Japanese kata, not Okinawan or Chinese forms... which means a short sequence of movements, usually no more than four or five actions, and typically paired, except for Iai), so the idea of repeating those over and over isn't that unrealistic. Then, when you attend the next seminar, or visit the instructor next, you get corrections and guidance, improving your practice... and it's only when you get it right consistently enough that you move on to the next ones. So in many cases, yeah, agreed, but in Koryu, particularly weaponry systems, it can be a bit different. The catch is that you do need to constantly work on things between seeing the instructor, you really can't learn by only attending the seminar. And simply being one of the faces in the crowd doesn't really imply the same thing.



Christian Soldier said:


> Hey Chris, here is the school I found. http://www.aikido-dojo.com/samurai-sword/
> I see your point about the Easten influnce, perhaps it's just not for me.
> 
> Again, all of you have been very helpfull. There's no way I could have figured all this stuff out myself.
> 
> Thank you.



Uh.... right. You might want to keep paying attention, then. Do you remember this post?



Chris Parker said:


> EDIT: Just to make my point, I was in a martial arts store recently (big surprise to those who know me...), and came across a book that was being sold there - http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Samurai-Sword-Cary-Nemeroff/dp/0804839557
> 
> I spent the next 20 minutes railing against the book, as it's written by a complete charlatan, who has no business being anywhere near a sword, let alone claiming to be able to teach the usage of such a weapon. The entire book is rife with completely terrible information, bad techniques, poorly researched ideas, and worse. The people working in the store said "But it says he's a 10th Dan... doesn't that mean he's good? I mean, someone must have awarded him that rank.". Uh, no. Completely useless sod who self promoted (through a pay-for-grade group). Odds are you'd pick up that book, and not have a clue that what you're reading is total garbage.



That's the system you've found. David Nemeroff is a relation of Cary Nemeroff, the above mentioned "author", with his invented system of "Fukasa Ryu", and complete lack of knowledge of anything to do with swordsmanship whatsoever.

Under no circumstances believe that this is a good school to visit. Do not travel for four hours to waste time, money, and effort on this embarrassment to JSA practitioners.


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## Christian Soldier

Well, glad I asked here. I think I'll just stick to kenpo for now and get better at that. Thanks!


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## lklawson

pgsmith said:


> It's pretty interesting that you say that you are worried about the Eastern influence, since this sword art is invented by westerners and has absolutely no ties with Japan. I would advise anyone to avoid it. Not because of any eastern mysticism it may contain, but simply because the examples that I have seen of their made up sword art were truly horrible.
> 
> 
> Absolutely not. I have heard two personal accounts of this very thing. In one, a cheap sword shattered and one of the resulting pieces flew over the roof of a house and into the leg of a five year old girl in the front yard. A second one had the handle fail and the blade flew across and impaled the fellow who was standing 15 feet away in the chest. I've personally seen one wrap come loose in mid-swing and the fellow's sword went flying across the practice hall. Not melodramatic in the least actually.
> 
> 
> Depends upon what you consider a cult. You see, you keep specifying "beater sword" and, to the vast majority of people that aren't connected with the sword arts, that means a one or two hundred dollar sword from China. I personally think that no one should even _think_ of doing anything with those swords, as they are mainly horrible accidents waiting to happen. I have real problems with the people that come on-line and say that it's just fine to use these poorly made, poorly balanced, vaguely sword-like objects for anything. Heck, I don't think they're even decent enough to hang on the wall as a decoration. The OP has zero sword experience, and I just want it to be perfectly clear that if someone wants a functional Japanese sword, they are going to have to pay a much higher price than "low end beater sword" to be assured of having one that will continue to function safely in its intended capacity. If you consider that as being part of the "Cult of the Sword", then you can count me in.
> 
> 
> I've done more than my share of Japanese historical research thank you very much. That research tells me that swords actually had very little to do with large army strategies throughout the thousand year history of the samurai. The samurai themselves were mainly horse archers, and the conscript armies were spearmen. Although they were issued 'beater" swords, very few actually used them, and even fewer actually knew _how_ to use them. The way the Japanese use it, the sword is very difficult to learn well and was mainly the province of the samurai caste, who could devote the time required to learn it properly. When not in use, the samurai treated their swords in an almost reverent fashion, which is the main reason that there are many thousands of antique Japanese swords still in existence, as opposed to the hundreds of antique European swords. It's not at all unusual to see many examples of beautifully maintained Japanese swords from the early 1600's for sale. It *is* unusual to see an example of a beautifully maintained sword of that age from any other culture. This is why I say you can't just lump all medieval cultures into the same pot and call them equal, even if they had the same goals and warring factions.


<sigh>
I give up.  You're determined to make this a personal fight and I have no time and less inclination to oblige.


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## pgsmith

> I give up. You're determined to make this a personal fight and I have no time and less inclination to oblige.


  Nope, no fight at all. I simply emphatically disagreed with your statement about "beater" swords, and included my reasoning in the matter. My views are out there for those with less experience to see, so I'm satisfied.


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## Kaan

This thread has exactly the information I was looking for.


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## swordsman

Hi, I can I was in exactly the same position, looking for a decent katana but at a reasonable price yet still of some quality. We looked at cold steel but like you the reviews put us off buying one from them. We ended going to Swords of the East who answered all my questions and recommended the best option. If you're still looking give them a try, they can definitely help.


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## Chris Parker

Hmm&#8230; the question was asked two years ago by someone with no training, no plan to go to a class, and no need for an actual weapon&#8230; which he was told throughout the thread&#8230; even if he was still looking, I'd advise not giving him ideas. 

Especially some of the absolute garbage on the site you linked, bluntly.

I have to ask, though, why were you looking for a sword? Your profile states "Judo, brown belt"&#8230; yet you use the handle "swordsman"&#8230; hmm&#8230; do you have any actual experience with swords?


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