# Hammering?



## Nyrotic (Aug 17, 2007)

I seem to have a bad habit of hammering, and no amount of attention on trying to delete the habit from my muscle memory seems to be working.

Any advice on how to kill this little imp?


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## profesormental (Aug 18, 2007)

Greetings.

Hammering in the right context is good. So to help you your would have to be more specific as to what kind of execution you're looking for.

Hope this helps.

Juan M. Mercado


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## Nyrotic (Aug 18, 2007)

Well, I was taught that, when chain punch training, my punches should be shot perfectly straight from the chest, and that hammering is when you drop your fist at the end of the punch because it wasn't straight. I was taught that hammering, when done over a long period of time, can damage your elbows...


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 18, 2007)

Nyrotic said:


> Well, I was taught that, when chain punch training, my punches should be shot perfectly straight from the chest, and that hammering is when you drop your fist at the end of the punch because it wasn't straight. I was taught that hammering, when done over a long period of time, can damage your elbows...


The hammer should happen first, and if anything your punching action should rise; so, by just doing it in the air just now; I've concluded you may not be lining your elbow and wrist on your center line as well as you could.
Sean


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## CheukMo (Aug 18, 2007)

The only thing I could add would be to tell you to practice your punching very slowly and be very relaxed while doing so.  If you can perform it well slowly, you should be able to perform it well fast pretty soon.


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## brocklee (Aug 20, 2007)

CheukMo said:


> The only thing I could add would be to tell you to practice your punching very slowly and be very relaxed while doing so.  If you can perform it well slowly, you should be able to perform it well fast pretty soon.



I would have to agree with this.  Slowly from heart, then launch the arrow until natural, full extension.  If you're feeling pain in your elbows its because you're flexing your tri-cep and extending all the way out beyond the natural extension.  Also, it depends on the line that you're studying.  Unfortunately my instruction doesn't include chain punches, it's very difficult to apply WC power to 3-5 punches as apposed to 1.


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 21, 2007)

When you say hammering, are you talking about a downwards force in your chain punch?

Hammer hands are used extensively in wing chun and I find them one of the best tools in my attack. In chain punching, the best way to correct is to slow down the punching and feel the power transfer in each punch, then slowly speed up


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 21, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> When you say hammering, are you talking about a downwards force in your chain punch?
> 
> Hammer hands are used extensively in wing chun and I find them one of the best tools in my attack. In chain punching, the best way to correct is to slow down the punching and feel the power transfer in each punch, then slowly speed up


The concept of going slow is becomming a new pet peeve of mine. Going slow won't help without proper alignment. Perhaps going slow will help you find it, but it's really one path verses another. I suspect this is a matter of anchoring the elbow. You will notice that by not anchoring your elbow your forearm just drops; align the weapon and the upper part of your arm rises and keeps the fist on a straight line.
Sean


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## CheukMo (Aug 21, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> The concept of going slow is becomming a new pet peeve of mine. Going slow won't help without proper alignment. Perhaps going slow will help you find it, but it's really one path verses another. Sean


 
That's exactly my point. It is much harder to find and correct something at full speed than when slowed down. Once the error is found, start again with the correct techinique and slowly build up speed so that it maintains the correct structure. I agree that slowness is not the answer to everything and that it sometimes is not the avenue to use to find the answer.


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 22, 2007)

In my class, I ask even my advanced students to test their structure by going slow and placing the punch into pads etc

Touch of Death - it does sound that you are from a group of chunners that like to blast out with a rapid fire of quick chain punches 
Good speed, no power


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## jks9199 (Aug 22, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> In my class, I ask even my advanced students to test their structure by going slow and placing the punch into pads etc
> 
> Touch of Death - it does sound that you are from a group of chunners that like to blast out with a rapid fire of quick chain punches
> Good speed, no power


I think people are perhaps misunderstanding Touch of Death's point... and it's one I agree with.  

Going slow is generally good advice -- but it's not the whole of the advice.  Going slow lets you concentrate on getting the pieces right and in place -- but you've got to have the pieces in the first place.  Otherwise, no matter how slow you go, you're not developing skill, you're just moving.  It's like the community center tai chi instructor who learned 103 movements of the form in a weekend seminar as a "health dance", not a martial art...  He's going slow all right, but he's not really developing the power that's in the system.


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## Changhfy (Aug 22, 2007)

Generally speaking, when we teach the student how to punch.
We first start with the proper mechanics and forms, from this point we then start the student on punching objects such as kick shields, tombstones etc... From this point its important to understand how to use the punch (so in other words the concept behind the punch and other variables)

Generally for the sake of mechanics the student should start out slow, if you start out punching equipment without mechanics and at higher speeds you'll have never ending injuries.

But the goal is to throw the punch with proper alignments at full speed. Given the proper alignment will also add power to the punch, dont get me wrong no amount of throwing punches in the air will prepare you for hitting equipment at full power or even a person. This is something that has to be experienced.

Other than that, All I can say is it takes a lot of repetition.


hope this helps.

take care


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 22, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> In my class, I ask even my advanced students to test their structure by going slow and placing the punch into pads etc
> 
> Touch of Death - it does sound that you are from a group of chunners that like to blast out with a rapid fire of quick chain punches
> Good speed, no power


Its all in the hip.


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 23, 2007)

Yes you are right it is all in the hip. And feet. And arm. 

But you won't 'feel' if you are doing right if you don't break the motion down and go slow. 

jks9199 - how do you get the move right? You go slow and make sure that every position and turn is right. 

It is the only way to ensure that 'you have the pieces in place'
I am confused as to how you can have the pieces otherwise?


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## brocklee (Aug 23, 2007)

It just depends on the instruction.  If its taught fast and you can use it that way, perfect.  Same for slow.  Certain Sifus rather teach that bridging isn't what should be focused on and instead would rather teach that you throw a limb out there and if it doesn't work....hurry and get the other one out there...and so on and so on.


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## jks9199 (Aug 23, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> jks9199 - how do you get the move right? You go slow and make sure that every position and turn is right.
> 
> It is the only way to ensure that 'you have the pieces in place'
> I am confused as to how you can have the pieces otherwise?


 
You have to have been taught them at least once correctly.  In other words, if I tell you to simply throw a hypothetical kick we'll call "stomping elephant" slowly... but don't bother to teach you how to align your body properly for it -- it doesn't matter how slow you practice.  You probably ain't gonna do it right...  But, if I teach you the pieces that go into the kick -- and tell you to practice it slowly, exactly as I've taught it to you, you probably stand a pretty good chance of mastering the kick.


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## brocklee (Aug 23, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> You have to have been taught them at least once correctly.  In other words, if I tell you to simply throw a hypothetical kick we'll call "stomping elephant" slowly... but don't bother to teach you how to align your body properly for it -- it doesn't matter how slow you practice.  You probably ain't gonna do it right...  But, if I teach you the pieces that go into the kick -- and tell you to practice it slowly, exactly as I've taught it to you, you probably stand a pretty good chance of mastering the kick.



very nice


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 24, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> You have to have been taught them at least once correctly. In other words, if I tell you to simply throw a hypothetical kick we'll call "stomping elephant" slowly... but don't bother to teach you how to align your body properly for it -- it doesn't matter how slow you practice. You probably ain't gonna do it right... But, if I teach you the pieces that go into the kick -- and tell you to practice it slowly, exactly as I've taught it to you, you probably stand a pretty good chance of mastering the kick.


 
My point was that, when you first teach them the move, you do it slowly. If you show them a kick, are you saying that you just let them kick really fast? 

Jks - you are contradicting yourself. You first put up posts saying that you shouldn't go slowly and then your last line said that you do practice it slowly. Which is it?

The arguments on this post was that you should/shouldn't train moves slowly. My stance is this - you should show students the move and get them to practice it slowly so that they 'feel' the alignment. 
Then once they build that up, they can incrteas in power/speed

If a student throws a punch, they know if it is badly aligned or has no power almost immediately. Certainly a watching instructor would know.


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## jks9199 (Aug 24, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> My point was that, when you first teach them the move, you do it slowly. If you show them a kick, are you saying that you just let them kick really fast?
> 
> Jks - you are contradicting yourself. You first put up posts saying that you shouldn't go slowly and then your last line said that you do practice it slowly. Which is it?
> 
> ...


 
I'm not contradicting myself at all; I've simply said that, by itself, practicing slowly isn't enough.  You have to practice the technique properly.  If you practice it improperly, whether fast or slow, you won't improve.  

Then, there's a time and purpose for slow practice and for fast practice, but you should (with a few rare exceptions) never practice faster than you can do the technique properly.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 24, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I'm not contradicting myself at all; I've simply said that, by itself, practicing slowly isn't enough. You have to practice the technique properly. If you practice it improperly, whether fast or slow, you won't improve.
> 
> Then, there's a time and purpose for slow practice and for fast practice, but you should (with a few rare exceptions) never practice faster than you can do the technique properly.


Don't say never. The only way to get fast is to move fast. Yes, you will probably sacrafice technique at first, but once you understand where the alignment is, the stops and bad habbits you gain by going slow will have to be eliminated eventualy. For instance, when moving slow you use muscles, that aren't normaly asociated with the punch, simply to support the weight of your arm. 
Sean


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## brocklee (Aug 26, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Don't say never. The only way to get fast is to move fast


speed doesnt come from muscle or practicing rapid punches.  A fast WC practitioner gets to this level by learning to relax and focusing on efficiency.  All moves must go from point "a" to point "b" without over exerting the motion. Over exertion will cause you to have to correct with another improper motion.  So pretty much speed comes from accuracy and experience.  Practicing to move fast will cause you to tense up.


Touch Of Death said:


> . Yes, you will probably sacrafice technique at first
> , but once you understand where the alignment is, the stops and bad habbits you gain by going slow will have to be eliminated eventualy. For instance, when moving slow you use muscles, that aren't normaly asociated with the punch, simply to support the weight of your arm.
> Sean



thinking of where things stop is a bad habit in itself.  Just get the movements out there and they will stop themselves.  If you anticipate stopping something, you are then put into a situation to where you have to hit the brakes on which ever body part you're shooting forward.  So going into that punch, or whatever move, you're already tensed up.....not relaxed.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 26, 2007)

brocklee said:


> speed doesnt come from muscle or practicing rapid punches. A fast WC practitioner gets to this level by learning to relax and focusing on efficiency. All moves must go from point "a" to point "b" without over exerting the motion. Over exertion will cause you to have to correct with another improper motion. So pretty much speed comes from accuracy and experience. Practicing to move fast will cause you to tense up.
> 
> 
> thinking of where things stop is a bad habit in itself. Just get the movements out there and they will stop themselves. If you anticipate stopping something, you are then put into a situation to where you have to hit the brakes on which ever body part you're shooting forward. So going into that punch, or whatever move, you're already tensed up.....not relaxed.


So, using a stick cause you to move fater than you could naturaly, does that make you tense up?
Sean


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## brocklee (Aug 26, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> So, using a stick cause you to move fater than you could naturaly, does that make you tense up?
> Sean



Not a clue what you're saying...where did a stick come in?


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 28, 2007)

brocklee said:


> Not a clue what you're saying...where did a stick come in?


Using a stick will help you learn to move your muscles faster, and therefore be an aid to punching faster. That is where a stick comes in.
sean


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## brocklee (Aug 29, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Using a stick will help you learn to move your muscles faster, and therefore be an aid to punching faster. That is where a stick comes in.
> sean



Just a regular stick from a tree?  or are you talking about Kahlea Escrima?  I'm not grasping the stick concept.  Can you go more in depth please?  I'd like to know and am not trying to be sarcastic in anyway 

I know that a fast fighter is known as being agile.  Agility comes from being able to move your structure around quickly and nimbly.  Being nimble comes from practicing relaxation and knowing how to move with looseness and fluidity.  Agility doesn't come from building or training a muscle to move fast, it comes from learning to move and remain relaxed.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 29, 2007)

brocklee said:


> Just a regular stick from a tree? or are you talking about Kahlea Escrima? I'm not grasping the stick concept. Can you go more in depth please? I'd like to know and am not trying to be sarcastic in anyway
> 
> I know that a fast fighter is known as being agile. Agility comes from being able to move your structure around quickly and nimbly. Being nimble comes from practicing relaxation and knowing how to move with looseness and fluidity. Agility doesn't come from building or training a muscle to move fast, it comes from learning to move and remain relaxed.


So the whole fast twitch and slow twitch muscle training debate is not applicable to punching?


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## brocklee (Aug 29, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> So the whole fast twitch and slow twitch muscle training debate is not applicable to punching?



I've never even hear of fast or slow twitch before.  Is it WC you are talking about?  Twitching, my understanding, is an uncontrolled muscle contraction.  Kind of like erroneous electrical signals flowing through the nervous system.  This can't be related to what you're talking about.  Heroin users twitch.  

Are you talking about the tension created just before contact on the one inch  punch?


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 29, 2007)

brocklee said:


> I've never even hear of fast or slow twitch before. Is it WC you are talking about? Twitching, my understanding, is an uncontrolled muscle contraction. Kind of like erroneous electrical signals flowing through the nervous system. This can't be related to what you're talking about. Heroin users twitch.
> 
> Are you talking about the tension created just before contact on the one inch punch?


No I'm talking about dead lifting vs sprinting and the results there of. There are plenty of threads on this topic but good luck finding them. Perhaps some kind Mod will provide a link.
Sean


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## brocklee (Aug 29, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> No I'm talking about dead lifting vs sprinting and the results there of. There are plenty of threads on this topic but good luck finding them. Perhaps some kind Mod will provide a link.
> Sean




I think I need to go take a long nap, cause I don't understand what you're saying.  We went from sticks to talking about dead lifting and sprinting.  I'm still interested in finding more about sticks because I know that dead lifting and sprinting have nothing to do with martial speed.  Sure, sprinting will increase endurance and make it so you sprint faster.  Dead lifting, imho, makes you slower in lots of aspects.  

I have very little knowledge of weight training exercises because I'm naturally thin and only workout by training WC.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 29, 2007)

brocklee said:


> I think I need to go take a long nap, cause I don't understand what you're saying. We went from sticks to talking about dead lifting and sprinting. I'm still interested in finding more about sticks because I know that dead lifting and sprinting have nothing to do with martial speed. Sure, sprinting will increase endurance and make it so you sprint faster. Dead lifting, imho, makes you slower in lots of aspects.
> 
> I have very little knowledge of weight training exercises because I'm naturally thin and only workout by training WC.


I think its best we stop talking as well.
Sean


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## jks9199 (Aug 29, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I think its best we stop talking as well.
> Sean


If you'd deign to use more than a bare handful of words, people might follow what you're talking about...  Brevity may be the soul of wit, but it often causes confusion, too.

There seem to be two general types of muscle fibers in people; fast twitch and slow twitch.  Fast twitch are just that; they move FAST.  Slow twitch are slower, but more "powerful".  (I know... rocket science.)  Each person has a different natural allotment of both; a sprinter has lots of fast twitch fibers while a marathoner or power lifter has more slow twitch.  Both types of fibers do respond to training -- but you need the right type of training.  

You can learn more without much trouble by doing internet searches on "fast twitch muscle fiber" or "slow twitch muscle fibers" or combinations thereof...


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 29, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> If you'd deign to use more than a bare handful of words, people might follow what you're talking about... Brevity may be the soul of wit, but it often causes confusion, too.
> 
> There seem to be two general types of muscle fibers in people; fast twitch and slow twitch. Fast twitch are just that; they move FAST. Slow twitch are slower, but more "powerful". (I know... rocket science.) Each person has a different natural allotment of both; a sprinter has lots of fast twitch fibers while a marathoner or power lifter has more slow twitch. Both types of fibers do respond to training -- but you need the right type of training.
> 
> You can learn more without much trouble by doing internet searches on "fast twitch muscle fiber" or "slow twitch muscle fibers" or combinations thereof...


I saw a wall going up or I would have tried harder.
sean


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## brocklee (Aug 30, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I saw a wall going up or I would have tried harder.
> sean



Very nice   thats the info I was looking for.


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## brocklee (Aug 30, 2007)

What about the stick?  That's what I was really interested in.  I'll try searching stick now and see if I find my answer.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 30, 2007)

brocklee said:


> What about the stick? That's what I was really interested in. I'll try searching stick now and see if I find my answer.


The idea is that the weight of the stick pulls your arm faster than you can push it, and eventualy you stop using the stick but your muscles are now trained to move faster and therefore make you faster over all. In short, weapons training aids your empty handed training.
Sean


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## brocklee (Sep 2, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> The idea is that the weight of the stick pulls your arm faster than you can push it, and eventualy you stop using the stick but your muscles are now trained to move faster and therefore make you faster over all. In short, weapons training aids your empty handed training.
> Sean



Hmmm...I think I see what you're saying.  That'll speed you up if you're a muscle fighter.  Skinny WCers like myself can't beat up a muscle fighter by using muscles.  That's because we barely have any and usually the opponent has much much more.  And I feel, because I'm a committed WCer, that it gives me the advantage.  Sure, I can't punch with 1000lbs of force...but I can hit with about 550 and will get out 3 of them in the same time that single 1000lb punch is thrown.  And that'll be right after I had blocked it   If you train WC, you will realize that you move much faster because of being relaxed.  It takes a good deal of training to understand how to perform relaxed and when you finally do...you don't want to lose it.  So I personally don't train my muscles.

I lightly work out, but that's for the ladies   not the opponent. 

I do weapons training also but it's really just WC with swords in my hands.  I DO feel the muscles between my shoulder blades working more and that will definitely aid my open hand fighting. 

Thanks for the info on the sticks.  I tried searching it and came up with alot of nothing.  I suck at forums searching.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 4, 2007)

brocklee said:


> Hmmm...I think I see what you're saying. That'll speed you up if you're a muscle fighter. Skinny WCers like myself can't beat up a muscle fighter by using muscles. That's because we barely have any and usually the opponent has much much more. And I feel, because I'm a committed WCer, that it gives me the advantage. Sure, I can't punch with 1000lbs of force...but I can hit with about 550 and will get out 3 of them in the same time that single 1000lb punch is thrown. And that'll be right after I had blocked it  If you train WC, you will realize that you move much faster because of being relaxed. It takes a good deal of training to understand how to perform relaxed and when you finally do...you don't want to lose it. So I personally don't train my muscles.
> 
> I lightly work out, but that's for the ladies  not the opponent.
> 
> ...


Even you can get faster than you already are; skinny or not.:ultracool
Sean


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## brocklee (Sep 4, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Even you can get faster than you already are; skinny or not.:ultracool
> Sean


 
I would love that.  I think that everyone has there "maximum velocity" when WC is concerned though.  There's no need to be faster then really fast.  As long as you are relaxed and applying your structure properly, you will be utilizing WC to its fullest potential.  If I try to will my fist out any faster, it may possibly come out slower because of the addition thought process of "faster".


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 5, 2007)

I think we should agree to disagree about everyone being at maximum; because, some are highly conditioned ahtelites and some are not, even within your system, and I feel modern sports medicine aplies here and you do not. I'm fine with that. Just train.:ultracool
Sean


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## brocklee (Sep 5, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I think we should agree to disagree about everyone being at maximum; because, some are highly conditioned ahtelites and some are not, even within your system, and I feel modern sports medicine aplies here and you do not. I'm fine with that. Just train.:ultracool
> Sean


I'm sorry, its difficult to understand what you are saying with the way you use your words.   If your profile is up to date, then I take it you're not a WC practitioner?  If so, I can understand why you aren't grasping the concept.  WC movements are different then most martial arts.  I laugh at the thought of calling a practitioner an athlete though.   Well, there may be athletes...that happen to know WC, but becoming an athlete from WC is nearly impossible unless you're doing things wrong. 

From practicing WC my arms and chest have lost muscle.  6 pack?  yeah right.  I use that mini buddah down there to generate power. 

There is one guy in our class that is somewhat muscular.  He has the most difficult time, compaired to the rest of the class, doing the motions properly.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 7, 2007)

brocklee said:


> I'm sorry, its difficult to understand what you are saying with the way you use your words. If your profile is up to date, then I take it you're not a WC practitioner? If so, I can understand why you aren't grasping the concept. WC movements are different then most martial arts. I laugh at the thought of calling a practitioner an athlete though. Well, there may be athletes...that happen to know WC, but becoming an athlete from WC is nearly impossible unless you're doing things wrong.
> 
> From practicing WC my arms and chest have lost muscle. 6 pack? yeah right. I use that mini buddah down there to generate power.
> 
> There is one guy in our class that is somewhat muscular. He has the most difficult time, compaired to the rest of the class, doing the motions properly.


So you are saying WC is a non-athletic system?


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## brocklee (Sep 9, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> So you are saying WC is a non-athletic system?



kind of...you can consider sweeping the front porch an athletic system if don't properly


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## brocklee (Sep 9, 2007)

brocklee said:


> kind of...you can consider sweeping the front porch an athletic system if don't properly



err done properly


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 12, 2007)

brocklee said:


> I would love that. I think that everyone has there "maximum velocity" when WC is concerned though. There's no need to be faster then really fast. As long as you are relaxed and applying your structure properly, you will be utilizing WC to its fullest potential. If I try to will my fist out any faster, it may possibly come out slower because of the addition thought process of "faster".


 
I definately disagree that you can't get faster. I thought I was fast until I saw other guys doing stuff! I trained with them and they got me faster. look at athletes. Everyone thought Linford Christie had reached his peak, but he still pressed on and beat his times. 

However, please remember that if you get too fast, you start sacrificing power for speed. You need a balance between the two

Touch of Death, I have no idea what you are talking about with regards to a stick. Are you referring to the Roman technique of using heavy wooden swords for training and then switching to lighter, metal ones for battle, as they would move faster?

Wing chun is not an athletic system. Every school I have trained under has never given me a great workout (we sometimes do a hard warm up in various classes at Kamon). I wouldn't call a wing chun student an athlete
Most dictionaries define it as someone who does track and field or sports


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## brocklee (Sep 12, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> I definately disagree that you can't get faster. I thought I was fast until I saw other guys doing stuff! I trained with them and they got me faster. look at athletes. Everyone thought Linford Christie had reached his peak, but he still pressed on and beat his times.
> 
> However, please remember that if you get too fast, you start sacrificing power for speed. You need a balance between the two
> 
> ...




Yeah, we seem to disagree on a lot on the concepts of WC.  How can you make your relaxed punch faster, if you aren't using the muscles?  heeeh?  lol  Take a look at bruce lee's punches....they just shoot out there.  That's a WC punch.  No time to think faster because yer fist comes out as soon as you think it.  With WC you don't sacrifice power with speed.  Speed just happens to be there, the power comes from the rotation on the center axis and the amount of structure the practitioner has.  Don't try and be faster, just be faster by not worrying about it.


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 14, 2007)

brocklee said:


> Yeah, we seem to disagree on a lot on the concepts of WC. How can you make your relaxed punch faster, if you aren't using the muscles? heeeh? lol Take a look at bruce lee's punches....they just shoot out there. That's a WC punch. No time to think faster because yer fist comes out as soon as you think it. With WC you don't sacrifice power with speed. Speed just happens to be there, the power comes from the rotation on the center axis and the amount of structure the practitioner has. Don't try and be faster, just be faster by not worrying about it.


Huh? What are you using to move your arm if not muscles? You train the arm to build in muscle memory and speed all the way through your wing chun training. If you look back at when you first started wing chun to how you train now, you are most definately faster. If you look back in a years time, you will be faster still. Certainly if you watch Ip Chun and see how fast he is even at his age, it will inspire you

And as for Brucies punches - they weren't wing chun. In Enter The Dragon, a majority of his punches came from Chinese boxing, Western boxing and related more from his JKD theories than wing chun


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## brocklee (Sep 15, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> Huh? What are you using to move your arm if not muscles? You train the arm to build in muscle memory and speed all the way through your wing chun training. If you look back at when you first started wing chun to how you train now, you are most definately faster. If you look back in a years time, you will be faster still. Certainly if you watch Ip Chun and see how fast he is even at his age, it will inspire you
> 
> And as for Brucies punches - they weren't wing chun. In Enter The Dragon, a majority of his punches came from Chinese boxing, Western boxing and related more from his JKD theories than wing chun



Muscle memory in WC is applied a bit differently then other fighting styles.   It's used very minimally because we don't want to become dependent upon it.  As you approach an attacker you will use many tiny muscle memory actions as appose to a couple of larger muscle memory combos.  Students that train WC tend to believe that their timing drills and sensitivity drills are there to build muscle memory.  When in fact, they should be working on just timing and sensitivity.  Those drills are really fun and cause an untrained student to head in the wrong direction.  

Our muscle memory should only be used for single action attacks or defends.  The reason being, with WC, as you fight you actually right a story and it's funny because you call out the actions in your head.  You want to go through the battle answering the opponents questions with the correct answers.  You'll actually hear in your head: bong, fook, taan, punch punch.  This happens naturally because of sensitivity drills.  Not learning how to repeatedly do a certain combo over and over until that combo just happens without though.

Oh, and dude....WC is Chinese boxing.  And JKD can use western boxing punches but also uses WC punches at the same time.

Who isn't slower at anything, when they first start.  Everyone in WC goes through that process, just as you would any obstacle in life.  You wont get faster, using WC, until you over come fear and learn to remain relaxed....then you will have your optimum punch, that cannot be sped up by training physically....but mentally.

I used to train, under two different instructors, and they used the sensitivity and timing drills as a way to create muscle memory.  I still to this day am working on removing that info from my head.


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## brocklee (Sep 15, 2007)

Our muscle memory should only be used for single action attacks or defends. The reason being, with WC, as you fight you actually right a story and it's funny because you call out the actions in your head. You want to go through the battle answering the opponents questions with the correct answers. You'll actually hear in your head: bong, fook, taan, punch punch. This happens naturally because of sensitivity drills. Not learning how to repeatedly do a certain combo over and over until that combo just happens without though.

The last word in the paragraph should be "thought"


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 18, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> I definately disagree that you can't get faster. I thought I was fast until I saw other guys doing stuff! I trained with them and they got me faster. look at athletes. Everyone thought Linford Christie had reached his peak, but he still pressed on and beat his times.
> 
> However, please remember that if you get too fast, you start sacrificing power for speed. You need a balance between the two
> 
> ...


One thing I was not doing was refering to using heavy objects to get faster; it was quite the opposite, actually, as that would make you slower.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 18, 2007)

brocklee said:


> Our muscle memory should only be used for single action attacks or defends. The reason being, with WC, as you fight you actually right a story and it's funny because you call out the actions in your head. You want to go through the battle answering the opponents questions with the correct answers. You'll actually hear in your head: bong, fook, taan, punch punch. This happens naturally because of sensitivity drills. Not learning how to repeatedly do a certain combo over and over until that combo just happens without though.
> 
> The last word in the paragraph should be "thought"


Exactly, you should have muscle memory for a path of action. There is only a best path for your strike or the lesser, and its lesser because of the physical damage it can cause you, as well as being a less effective blow.
Sean


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