# Is Goju Ryus reputation as street effective attributed to its close range emphasis?



## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

There was a Karateka comparing styles who claimed that Shotokan had better results in Open Karate competitions, while Goju Ryu was more street effective. I actually know about European champion in Goju Ryu who was a troublemaker on the street. Took care of business no matter if it was boxers, muay thai guys or jujitsu dudes. Altercations in clubs and stuff.

My question is if this can be attributed to Gojy Ryus close range arsenal, and if so what in particular? Sweeps are fairly universal in Karate, and throws are not that unique either, so what is it with Goju Ryu in particular among the Karate styles?

I would appreciate answers from Goju Ryu practitioners first and foremost.


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## DaveB (Sep 12, 2017)

I'm pretty certain it's fictional.

I've trained a little Goju and the main "street" effective strengths I observed are an emphasis on strength and toughness training that translates into their sparring. But these are cultural elements, not style specific one's.


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I'm pretty certain it's fictional



No. The Goju Ryu Karateka was a famous street fighter and national competitor. He eventually went to jail for manslaughter. I don't want to sidetrack the discussion by naming him, but I know both first and last name. That's why I was suprised hearing that particular style mentioned because he was famous for beating up people, although the manslaughter incident was not due to his Karate.


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## DaveB (Sep 12, 2017)

See my edit...

But note that one person's skills do not a style reputation make.


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## drop bear (Sep 12, 2017)

I think the infighting for street is a bit of a myth in itself. Outfighting gets you punched and taken down less. Which seems a better curcumstance.

Otherwise from what i have seen of good Streetfighters is the same as I have seen from good ring fighters.

Better basics.


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I think the infighting for street is a bit of a myth in itself. Outfighting gets you punched and taken down less. Which seems a better curcumstance.
> 
> Otherwise from what i have seen of good Streetfighters is the same as I have seen from good ring fighters.
> 
> Better basics.



But in-fighters such as Goju Ryus aren't exactly terrible long range either. They have won point Karate medals. It's just that Shotokan dudes win more.  I hail from a long range fighting style and most honest practitioners of my art know that it's bad news close range. Very limited training in grappling, sweeps, no clinch, etc. Everything is geared towards long range tactics.


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## drop bear (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> But in-fighters such as Goju Ryus aren't exactly terrible long range either. They have won point Karate medals. It's just that Shotokan dudes win more.  I hail from a long range fighting style and most honest practitioners of my art know that it's bad news close range. Very limited training in grappling, sweeps, no clinch, etc. Everything is geared towards long range tactics.



If they are better at all ranges. Then that pretty much answers your question.


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## MA_Student (Sep 12, 2017)

That is such bs. If this guys so famous tell us his name...it doesn't matter about the style it's the practitioner that matters. /if/ this is true then that guy was just better than the guys he thought doesn't mean the style is any better.

No offence but you really are posting a lot of silly threads


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> That is such bs. If this guys so famous tell us his name...it doesn't matter about the style it's the practitioner that matters. /if/ this is true then that guy was just better than the guys he thought doesn't mean the style is any better.
> 
> No offence but you really are posting a lot of silly threads



I don't believe you study any martial arts. All you do is argue,  and your ignorance of the subjects shine through


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If they are better at all ranges. Then that pretty much answers your question.



Never said they were.


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## MA_Student (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> I don't believe you study any martial arts. All you do is argue,  and your ignorance of the subjects shine through


Okay my friend whatever you want to believe...lol I'm not the one who doesnt know if he should start boxing or not yet is criticising a professional fighters boxing technique if that's not ignorance then I don't know what is


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## punisher73 (Sep 12, 2017)

During my years of MA experience (20+), I enjoy looking into and reading about other arts to learn about who/why they were started.  The ONLY common denominator in ALL of the arts is that the people who helped make the art famous as being "effective" were all VERY tough guys.  It doesn't matter what the art was, they had a mental toughness and trained hard.  

I don't think it would have mattered what art you put those guys in, they would have been great fighters because of their attributes that they brought to the table.  The tools they used were incidental.


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

punisher73 said:


> I don't think it would have mattered what art you put those guys in, they would have been great fighters because of their attributes that they brought to the table.  The tools they used were incidental.



Not so sure about that. I think I he would have beaten plenty anyway with Shotokan, but not all of them. I'm talking about amateur western and thaiboxers, legit fighters and one instructor in Japanese jujitsu, that he soundly mopped the floor with.


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## Headhunter (Sep 12, 2017)

My god....what a load of rubbish okay then name this terminator European champion for us. This sounds like a bad bruce lee movie. Firstly how do you know the guys he thought were boxers or grapplers or whatever second just because one guy who does it can fight doesn't mean the whole styles good as any martial artist knows it's not about the style it's about the person.

Funny how people who get called out on their stories get all defensive saying rubbish like oh I bet you don't know martial arts.

Tbh either you're lying or you're gullible


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> My god....what a load of rubbish okay then name this terminator European champion for us.



I will not out of respect to him and his troubled past. The man is out of prison and trying to rehabilitate his life. He's on Youtube in the European Championships. I've seen him move and he is 100% legit. The dudes he fought were known amateur fighters, and there something called witnesses... This guy was infamous for starting trouble just to put people he didn't like in their place.


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## Headhunter (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> I will not out of respect to him and his troubled past. The man is out of prison and trying to rehabilitate his life. He's on Youtube in the European Championships. I've seen him move and he is 100% legit. The dudes he fought were known amatuer fighters, and there something called witnesses... and this guy was infamous for starting trouble just to put people he didn't like in their place.


Okay buddy whatever you say lol he's on YouTube...wow that narrows it down doesn't it


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

He won gold in the European Championships  (I will not disclose which nation he represented) as well as a finalist at the World Championships. Super talented guy.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 12, 2017)

i am going to put the nonsensical argument aside and focus on the actual question.



Axiom said:


> There was a Karateka comparing styles who claimed that Shotokan had better results in Open Karate competitions, while Goju Ryu was more street effective



this is a fallacy and at best one persons opinion. 



Axiom said:


> My question is if this can be attributed to Gojy Ryus close range arsenal, and if so what in particular?





Axiom said:


> what is it with Goju Ryu in particular among the Karate styles?



first i would want to define "street effective".  for this argument i would define it as two guys in a bar who get into a fist fight, the typical dominance thing. 

first  Okinawan Goju- ryu has weight resistance training incorporated into the curriculum.  its not tacked on the begining of the class like doing jumping jacks as a warm up.  the weight training is integral to the style.  this makes the average practitioner in better shape than average.
second it was never intended to be a sport like main land Japanese Shotokan and other main land styles. 
The style has a very grounded stance and composure. this gives the practitioner the ablility and familiarity to standing there trading punches.  A bar room fight happens within close proximity, pushing , pulling and trading punches.  Goju -ryu is very good at this.   Shotokan has become more of a point sparring feel where the practitioner moves in and out of range where the Goju guy is more likely to stand and trade like Wanderlei Silva in MMA.

IF and thats a big IF Goju ryu does have a reputation as being good for street fighting it would be because of these attributes.  but i have to add... having a reputation and the actual reality of something are two entirely separate things.


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## JR 137 (Sep 12, 2017)

punisher73 said:


> During my years of MA experience (20+), I enjoy looking into and reading about other arts to learn about who/why they were started.  The ONLY common denominator in ALL of the arts is that the people who helped make the art famous as being "effective" were all VERY tough guys.  It doesn't matter what the art was, they had a mental toughness and trained hard.
> 
> I don't think it would have mattered what art you put those guys in, they would have been great fighters because of their attributes that they brought to the table.  The tools they used were incidental.


Yup.  To add...

Measuring an arts effectiveness is a lot more accurate if you're looking at how the majority of the students fare vs how the teacher did.  If just about any dedicated student can perform the principles relatively well, then we can START to say the system is good.  If the head guy's the only one, we can easily chalk that up to the head guy being a great fighter, and no more.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 12, 2017)

Isshinryu combines Gojuryu and Shorinryu.  There, problem solved.


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## jobo (Sep 12, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> i am going to put the nonsensical argument aside and focus on the actual question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i was going to say something like this, with out the in depth knowledge, real fighting is hard and messy, there is no time for dancing,around feinting and,finding range, some guy has you by the throat and you start from there, there is a marked advantage to the,fittest person in the fight and that's generaly a,strengh component, if an art is bigger on developing strengh than another then its reasonable to suppose that person will a quit them shelves better in pushing and pulling match. Once they are up close, long range skills are of little use, if an art has better short range skills then it would seem more use


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## JR 137 (Sep 12, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Isshinryu combines Gojuryu and Shorinryu.  There, problem solved.


Kyokushin combines Goju Ryu and Shotokan.  Problem solved yet again.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 12, 2017)

or you could just learn Ameri-do-Te and be done with these other BS styles.


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> this is a fallacy and at best one persons opinion.



How is that a fallacy or opinion? You can empirically investigate which type of Karateka that has the most success in Point Karate, and unless you attribute it to a giant advantage in talent pool, then it's clear that the style as something to do with it. I don't see why Goju Ryu neccesarily has a weaker talent pool for competition than Shotokan.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> How is that a fallacy or opinion? You can empirically investigate which type of Karateka that has the most success in Point Karate, and unless you attribute it to a giant advantage in talent pool, then it's clear that the style as something to do with it. I don't see why Goju Ryu neccesarily has a weaker talent pool for competition than Shotokan.



for starters, in this reply you are only addressing half of your statement.  you originally said shotokan is better for point fighting but goju is better for street fighting.
second i would really like to see this "empirical data"    can you please post it or post a link?


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> for starters, in this reply you are only addressing half of your statement.  you originally said shotokan is better for point fighting but goju is better for street fighting.
> second i would really like to see this "empirical data"    can you please post it or post a link?



Do I really need to prove to you that the majority of the champions are Shotokan Karatekas? It could of course be due to Shotokan clubs being more prevalent in the world, since it's the most popular Karate style. But really doesn't it make sense that long range fighters do better in point stop rules?  It's their bread and butter. Close range street fighting is not.


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## Tez3 (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> Do I really need to prove to you that the majority of the champions are Shotokan Karate winners? It could of course be due to Shotokan clubs being more prevalent in the world, since it's the biggest Karate style. But really doesn't it make sense that long range fighters do better in point stop rules?  It's their bread and butter. Close range street fighting is not.



Do you understand how karate competitions are organised, how many 'world' organisations there are that run 'World and European' championships? I know of five just off the top of my head. So which one do you think 'Shotokan' rules in particular? Would it be the Shotokan only one do you think?


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Do you understand how karate competitions are organised, how many 'world' organisations there are that run 'World and European' championships? I know of five just off the top of my head. So which one do you think 'Shotokan' rules in particular? Would it be the Shotokan only one do you think?



Yes, I understand that. Shotokan dominates in the ones were Goju Ryu is allowed. That's why I wrote "open style" competitions.


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## MA_Student (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> Do I really need to prove to you that the majority of the champions are Shotokan Karatekas? It could of course be due to Shotokan clubs being more prevalent in the world, since it's the most popular Karate style. But really doesn't it make sense that long range fighters do better in point stop rules?  It's their bread and butter. Close range street fighting is not.


Yeah you do know most championships in karate mean basically nothing these days right? A 5 year old could win 1 fight and then get called a world champion because there's no one else in his category. That happens loads of times these days even among adults and the fact there's so many competitions around it's frankly impossible to see which style gets the most....unless you're just looking at shotokan tournaments then well...who do you think is going to win a shotokan tournament...hmmm maybe the shotokan guys.

Also since when has shotokan ever been the most popular style. There's 0 way of telling what styles the most popular unless you go round to every single club of every single style and count how many students they have. 
Do you really need to prove it? No but I'd like to see you try and prove it.


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Also since when has shotokan ever been the most popular style. There's 0 way of telling what styles the most popular unless you go round to every single club of every single style and count how many students they have.
> Do you really need to prove it? No but I'd like to see you try and prove it.



Shotokan is the most prevalent Karate style by a mile. Not even worth counting.


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## MA_Student (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> Shotokan is the most prevalent Karate style by a mile. Not even worth counting.


 No it isn't theres not a single shotokan club In my area but there's about 10 kenpo schools, 3 kyoshikin and an ishinryu club. You just seem to be spouting out your opinions as facts. If you know this for a fact then prove it show us with facts that it's the most prevalent


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> You don't half talk a load of rubbish. No it isn't theres not a single shotokan club In my area but there's about 10 kenpo schools, 3 kyoshikin and an ishinryu club. You just seem to be spouting out your opinions as facts. If you know this for a fact then prove it show us with facts that it's the most prevalent



No, I had enough of you.


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## drop bear (Sep 12, 2017)

punisher73 said:


> During my years of MA experience (20+), I enjoy looking into and reading about other arts to learn about who/why they were started.  The ONLY common denominator in ALL of the arts is that the people who helped make the art famous as being "effective" were all VERY tough guys.  It doesn't matter what the art was, they had a mental toughness and trained hard.
> 
> I don't think it would have mattered what art you put those guys in, they would have been great fighters because of their attributes that they brought to the table.  The tools they used were incidental.



We had a lot of TKD hard men in the mafia back in the day.


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## Headhunter (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> Shotokan is the most prevalent Karate style by a mile. Not even worth counting.


Not worth counting...so that means you basically have no idea what's the most popular you're just saying whatever you want and claiming it as facts


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## MA_Student (Sep 12, 2017)

.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> Yes, I understand that. Shotokan dominates in the ones were Goju Ryu is allowed. That's why I wrote "open style" competitions.


dude your making things up now.  TEZ  hit my point on the money.  there are so many organizations out there that your empirical data is impossible to substantiate.
let me explain the way the world works to you.  styles and organizations tend to keep to themselves.  In America the Uechi ryu oranizations really only compete in the American  Uechi - Ryu Championship and the All Okinawan Championship.   Okinawan Goju-Ryu also participates in the All Okinawan Championship.  but guess what shotokan does not participate and is not allowed to participate in these competitions.  so if the the Uechi and Goju guys have their own tournament and i would guess the places you are sourcing your info on only looks at say the WKF which may have a majority of Shotokan type style participants and no Uechi and very low Goju how are you going to make any kind of determination?


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## MA_Student (Sep 12, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> dude your making things up now.  TEZ  hit my point on the money.  there are so many organizations out there that your empirical data is impossible to substantiate.
> let me explain the way the world works to you.  styles and organizations tend to keep to themselves.  In America the Uechi ryu oranizations really only compete in the American  Uechi - Ryu Championship and the All Okinawan Championship.   Okinawan Goju-Ryu also participates in the All Okinawan Championship.  but guess what shotokan does not participate and is not allowed to participate in these competitions.  so if the the Uechi and Goju guys have their own tournament and i would guess the places you are sourcing your info on only looks at say the WKF which may have a majority of Shotokan type style participants and no Uechi and very low Goju how are you going to make any kind of determination?


Yep as I've said there's hundreds of karate completions happening around the world every single week there's been billions of so called world champions and I know I've seen a few tournaments where you don't even have to fight/ perform your kata and you're called a champion since there's no one else in your division


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> dso if the the Uechi and Goju guys have their own tournament and i would guess the places you are sourcing your info on only looks at say the WKF which may have a majority of Shotokan type style participants and no Uechi and very low Goju how are you going to make any kind of determination?



That's why I wrote that it *might* have to do with pure number of Shotokan practitioners participating over Goju. Anyway, I was not the one making the claim, but it made sense based on what characterises each style.


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## KenpoBoxer (Sep 12, 2017)

Lol so you're assumption that goju Ryu is better for the street is because some scumbag thug beat up a few people?


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> That's why I wrote that it *might* have to do with pure number of Shotokan practitioners participating over Goju. Anyway, I was not the one making the claim, but it made sense based on what characterises each style.



i dont want to gang pile up on you for your thoughts or ideas.  but keep a few things in mind,  myself and some others here have been training longer than you have been on the planet. that doesnt mean we are always right, it just means that you need to have thought though any argument or debate because we will not just accept random points as fact.  we will challenge you on them.  try not to be too stuck on any one idea and be open to changing your mind (doesnt mean you have to it just means dont go into an argument being stubborn)

on the thought of shotokan being better than Goju for point sparring, if you asked me if i thought shotokan was better i  would say YES!!!  but like they often ask in school  "show your work"  your logic on how you got to that conclusion is flawed.  i would guess that it is not your fault so much as it is that it is something you read on line, it sounded reasonable so you went with that idea but are unsure how that conclusion is reached.  

now the other side of your premise is that Goju is better for "street fighting"  well thats a big can of worms.  ideas like that have been beaten like a dead horse around here. again i will say if you feel that way, if you want to present it as a fact then you better have a really sound logical argument.  the alternative is to present it as a question. this is what i read ....what do you guys think?    you kind of did that so kudos to you  but you started it out as a fact then asked another question related to it.

if we a re beating you up dont be discouraged,,,that happens in class as much as it does here...welcome aboard.


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> ....what do you guys think?



I thought that part was undisputed because of Shotokans holes in close range combat. Funakoshi did incorporate things for that as well but if it was not passed on to the specific instructor, it would not be part of the curriculum. Thus we find ourselves today with Shotokan as widely practised, low on close range-techniques, and more of a one trick pony, one dimensional, pick your term.


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## drop bear (Sep 12, 2017)

Kind of seeing infighting and outfighting from both.

What am I missing here?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> I thought that part was undisputed because of Shotokans holes in close range combat. Funakoshi did incorporate things for that as well but if it was not passed on to the specific instructor, it would not be part of the curriculum. Thus we find ourselves today with Shotokan as widely practised, low on close range-techniques, and more of a one trick pony, one dimensional, pick your term.


I only know one person who practiced Shotokan, he practiced (only) it for about 15 years before switching to kenpo. I've sparred with him enough times, that I know he is not one-dimensional or a one-trick pony. When it came to sparring, he was on par or better than judoka, kenpoists and TKD practitioners that trained at the dojo with us.


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> I only know one person who practiced Shotokan, he practiced (only) it for about 15 years before switching to kenpo. I've sparred with him enough times, that I know he is not one-dimensional or a one-trick pony. When it came to sparring, he was on par or better than judoka, kenpoists and TKD practitioners that trained at the dojo with us.



That's right, you *sparred* with him. Did I not say sparring type of fighting was their bread and butter?


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

Anybody taking me to mean that Shotokan does not work for self defence, is mistaken. Goju Ryu being more effective does not entail the other one is useless...Just not as effective.


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## drop bear (Sep 12, 2017)

But ok. lets look at outfighting and infighting. Here are two guys from the same gym. Both of them are reasonably successful in what they do. One infights one outfights.

Infighter.





Outfighter.





Here is the concept. A fight still is not about showcasing your style. It is about using the best methods you can to not get yourself bashed. So dont be suprised if you see infighters outfighting and visa versa. A good fighter will be able to employ either method.


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Here is the concept. A fight still is not about showcasing your style. It is about using the best methods you can to not get yourself bashed. So dont be suprised if you see infighters outfighting and visa versa. A good fighter will be able to employ either method.



Absolutely. I would still favor the guy with a plan B if they are equally matched, though. And Goju appears less one dimensional than Shotokan and TaeKwondo. Heck, our own TKD instructor states clearly: "Close range is not where we want to be".


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## Tez3 (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> That's right, you *sparred* with him. Did I not say sparring type of fighting was their bread and butter?



'Sparring' type of fighting? what do you think sparring is?

I know some very good full contact Shotokan karateka.

I don't and haven't done 'point fighting'. Most people I know don't either. We didn't compete in this as we aren't Shotokan but we went to watch as it was wasn't far from us. The Brit is Frank Brennan.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> That's right, you *sparred* with him. Did I not say sparring type of fighting was their bread and butter?


You said it's a one-trick pony, and one-dimensional. I took that to mean that they are good at sparring within their ruleset. The sparring that we did was not point sparring, and included grappling along with striking (closer to fighting than anything else I'm aware of).

Did I misunderstand what you meant?


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 12, 2017)

The rule set is important. Shotokan has its own rule set, uechi has its rule set, kyokushin has its own rule set. They are all point sparring but not equal.
A shotokan in a Uechi tournament will not do well and a Uechi guy in a TKD tournament won't even get a single point.
Just like "the street" it all depends.


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> You said it's a one-trick pony, and one-dimensional. I took that to mean that they are good at sparring within their ruleset. The sparring that we did was not point sparring, and included grappling along with striking (closer to fighting than anything else I'm aware of).
> 
> Did I misunderstand what you meant?



How do you know that guy wasn't an outlier? I'm a complete outlier when it comes to fighting in TKD. I prefer close range, grapple quite well, good jab. Absolutely dreadful leg dexterity in sparring. Can't do kick sparring to save my life. Although I can perform the moves when given time in patterns, I'm simply too slow for kick sparring,.


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> 'Sparring' type of fighting? what do you think sparring is?



Sparring is one type of fighting, self defence is another. It is in the area of self defence that Shotokan is in my opinion less effective than Goju Ryu.


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## DaveB (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> Absolutely. I would still favor the guy with a plan B if they are equally matched, though. And Goju appears less one dimensional than Shotokan and TaeKwondo. Heck, our own TKD instructor states clearly: "Close range is not where we want to be".


Axiom, you should really try and let go of your preconceptions and take on what everyone else is telling you.

You are trying to use vague generalities largely based on the competition formats you've seen to understand these fighting styles. The real world is simply not that black and white.

The things you think are facts not worth questioning are at best just opinions and at worst fabrications.


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## Axiom (Sep 12, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Axiom, you should really try and let go of your preconceptions and take on what everyone else is telling you.
> 
> You are trying to use vague generalities largely based on the competition formats you've seen to understand these fighting styles. The real world is simply not that black and white.
> 
> The things you think are facts not worth questioning are at best just opinions and at worst fabrications.



No, I base it on their respective curriculum. When it comes to sparring, Gojus fight very similiar to Shotokan guys, only less well on average, arguably. The difference is that when it comes to grappling, Shotokan Karatekas jn general have a huge hole. I state my opinions and I (as most people with opinions) concider my opinions to be founded in reality, thus part of the fabrict of facts. But I will never argue to *prove* them as facts, which you guys seem to require of me. I just argue my points and you can take it or leave it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 12, 2017)

Axiom said:


> How do you know that guy wasn't an outlier? I'm a complete outlier when it comes to fighting in TKD. I prefer close range, grapple quite well, good jab. Absolutely dreadful leg dexterity in sparring. Can't do kick sparring to save my life. Although I can perform the moves when given time in patterns, I'm simply too slow for kick sparring,.


I've got no idea if he was an outlier or not. I have no other knowledge of goju ryu karatekas or shotokan karatekas to compare it to. I also have no clue whatsoever, and couldn't care in the slightest, which of the two is better for "the street". 

But, since that is the only art he practiced beforehand, it shows that shotokan is capable of being more than one-dimensional, in the same way your original post about the goju ryu thug (who is definitely an outlier if he's won multiple championships) shows that goju ryu can be street-effective.


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## Anarax (Sep 13, 2017)

Axiom said:


> There was a Karateka comparing styles who claimed that Shotokan had better results in Open Karate competitions, while Goju Ryu was more street effective. I actually know about European champion in Goju Ryu who was a troublemaker on the street. Took care of business no matter if it was boxers, muay thai guys or jujitsu dudes. Altercations in clubs and stuff.
> 
> My question is if this can be attributed to Gojy Ryus close range arsenal, and if so what in particular? Sweeps are fairly universal in Karate, and throws are not that unique either, so what is it with Goju Ryu in particular among the Karate styles?
> 
> I would appreciate answers from Goju Ryu practitioners first and foremost.



My training in Goju was probably the most physical intense training I've ever done. Punching and kicking until you have a pool of sweat around you. Limb conditioning until your arms and legs are throbbing. Smart yet hard sparring then grappling afterwards. My Goju instructor is probably the toughest and most knowledgeable out of all my other instructors. I can't attest with the whole "Street Fighting" aspect, but I can tell you my Goju training was the most physically challenging thing I've done. I agree with one of the other posters, the training culture you are in plays a tremendous factor in your capabilities. In other words, you're not going to get the same results training with children than you would training with tough dedicated students. It's more about the environment opposed to the style or system itself.


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## drop bear (Sep 13, 2017)

Here we go by the way the ibrahims were all tkd guys as an example of mabye unlikley martial arts that were used to routinely bash people.

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

I know of some MMA guys who are enfocers for bikies.

So a krotty guy running around as some sort of enforcer is not really that big a stretch.


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## Tez3 (Sep 13, 2017)

Axiom said:


> Sparring is one type of fighting, self defence is another. It is in the area of self defence that Shotokan is in my opinion less effective than Goju Ryu.



Sparring isn't fighting. Sparring is a training tool. Self defence isn't fighting. Self defence training is just that. One doesn't always end up fighting if your self defence is good.



Axiom said:


> No, I base it on their respective curriculum. When it comes to sparring, Gojus fight very similiar to Shotokan guys, only less well on average, arguably



So, you look at a school/club's curriculum and decide whether they can 'fight' or not? When it comes to sparring or as you like to call it 'fighting', how do you actually know what they do, have you been to competitions all over the UK and Europe as well as North and south America, Asia etc to know definitively how they fight/spar? 





Axiom said:


> The difference is that when it comes to grappling, Shotokan Karatekas jn general have a huge hole.



Do you think this is perhaps because they don't train grappling, possibly? They also don't enter grappling competitions nor pretend to know anything about it unless they also train a grappling style. They aim to keep standing and frankly there's nothing wrong with that. It's not a fault on their part it's a preference.







Axiom said:


> I state my opinions and I (as most people with opinions) concider my opinions to be founded in reality, thus part of the fabrict of facts. But I will never argue to *prove* them as facts, which you guys seem to require of me. I just argue my points and you can take it or leave it.



Possibly one of the most big headed statements I've read recently. Most people know their are opinions are just that but you seem to be convinced of your own superior knowledge to people who have been training longer than you've been alive. the thing too is you aren't arguing your points, you are making statements, erroneous ones mostly, and posting them as facts with nothing to back up why what you think could be true. That's pretentious and makes you look big headed. 

What are your qualifications for judging other styles? Have you trained Shotokan or any karate style? how long have you been training? How many Dan grades do you have? 


I'm not sure what you think a 'street fighter' is, do you mean someone who brawls in the streets and pubs? Outside of films and television the only 'streetfighters' are self named as such. Most people I know use it as a term of abuse for an idiot who gets into fights with drunks. 




Axiom said:


> How do you know that guy wasn't an outlier? I'm a complete outlier when it comes to fighting in TKD. I prefer close range, grapple quite well, good jab. Absolutely dreadful leg dexterity in sparring. Can't do kick sparring to save my life. Although I can perform the moves when given time in patterns, I'm simply too slow for kick sparring,.



You are therefore a very bad TKD student. What's the point in training in a style if you don't learn it? You would be better to train MMA. By the way what do you think patterns are for?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 13, 2017)

I just want to add I train Goju and just held a universal wide open championship competition about 5 min ago every style was invited I represented Earth in the competition and all the other planets were too afraid to send a challenger so I won.  I am now a Champion of the Universe so Goju is the best in the universe. Case Closed.


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## Buka (Sep 13, 2017)

ballen0351 said:


> I just want to add I train Goju and just held a universal wide open championship competition about 5 min ago every style was invited I represented Earth in the competition and all the other planets were too afraid to send a challenger so I won.  I am now a Champion of the Universe so Goju is the best in the universe. Case Closed.



So that was you! I knew it.


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## Tez3 (Sep 13, 2017)

ballen0351 said:


> I just want to add I train Goju and just held a universal wide open championship competition about 5 min ago every style was invited I represented Earth in the competition and all the other planets were too afraid to send a challenger so I won.  I am now a Champion of the Universe so Goju is the best in the universe. Case Closed.



Bows...  we're not worthy.


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## JR 137 (Sep 13, 2017)

ballen0351 said:


> I just want to add I train Goju and just held a universal wide open championship competition about 5 min ago every style was invited I represented Earth in the competition and all the other planets were too afraid to send a challenger so I won.  I am now a Champion of the Universe so Goju is the best in the universe. Case Closed.


James Carville in Old School:
We... have no response.  That was perfect.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 13, 2017)

ballen0351 said:


> I just want to add I train Goju and just held a universal wide open championship competition about 5 min ago every style was invited I represented Earth in the competition and all the other planets were too afraid to send a challenger so I won.  I am now a Champion of the Universe so Goju is the best in the universe. Case Closed.


Only because I had the stomach flu and couldn't make it.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 14, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Only because I had the stomach flu and couldn't make it.


Id give you a a chance to take the title but I have now decided to retire as the undefeated chapion of the universe from now to forever....

I will be going on a world tour soon and for $499 Ill train with you for 2 hours then you can claim to be one of my students on internet forums.  For an additional $199 Ill take a photo with you and provide a certificate and add you to my database of students as proof to be used in all future internet disputes


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## CB Jones (Sep 14, 2017)

ballen0351 said:


> Id give you a a chance to take the title but I have now decided to retire as the undefeated chapion of the universe from now to forever....
> 
> I will be going on a world tour soon and for $499 Ill train with you for 2 hours then you can claim to be one of my students on internet forums.  For an additional $199 Ill take a photo with you and provide a certificate and add you to my database of students as proof to be used in all future internet disputes



Do you accept PayPal?


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 14, 2017)

ballen0351 said:


> I just want to add I train Goju and just held a universal wide open championship competition about 5 min ago every style was invited I represented Earth in the competition and all the other planets were too afraid to send a challenger so I won.  I am now a Champion of the Universe so Goju is the best in the universe. Case Closed.



Yeah...that is because due to its awesomeness... and attractiveness of its practitioners......Xuefu has been ban from all competitions in the universe since we WON then all 10 years in a row.... that and it has been deemed to deadly for the ring


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## ballen0351 (Sep 14, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yeah...that is because due to its awesomeness... and attractiveness of its practitioners......Xuefu has been ban from all competitions in the universe since we WON then all 10 years in a row.... that and it has been deemed to deadly for the ring


We dont speak of such things it wasn't posted on YouTube so it didnt happen


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 21, 2017)

Axiom said:


> Do I really need to prove to you that the majority of the champions are Shotokan Karatekas?


If you want to claim it then yes.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 21, 2017)

Axiom said:


> No, I base it on their respective curriculum.


What experience do you have with either curriculum?


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 21, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Only because I had the stomach flu and couldn't make it.


That and I don't do competitions.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 21, 2017)

drop bear said:


>


That more closely resembles ground and pound MMA than Goju Ryu.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 21, 2017)

Anarax said:


> My training in Goju was probably the most physical intense training I've ever done. Punching and kicking until you have a pool of sweat around you. Limb conditioning until your arms and legs are throbbing. Smart yet hard sparring then grappling afterwards. My Goju instructor is probably the toughest and most knowledgeable out of all my other instructors. I can't attest with the whole "Street Fighting" aspect, but I can tell you my Goju training was the most physically challenging thing I've done. I agree with one of the other posters, the training culture you are in plays a tremendous factor in your capabilities. In other words, you're not going to get the same results training with children than you would training with tough dedicated students. It's more about the environment opposed to the style or system itself.



Im training in Goju Ryu right now. My Shi-to Ryu training, which I've been doing for years before I started Goju Ryu, has usually been more intense, even at the beginner levels.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 21, 2017)

Axiom said:


> Sparring is one type of fighting, self defence is another. It is in the area of self defence that Shotokan is in my opinion less effective than Goju Ryu.


Goju Ryu might work better in self defense for you and if that's the case and your goal is to be able to defend yourself than I would say go with the Goju Ryu. But that doesn't mean Goju Ryu would be more effective than Shotokan in terms of self defense for everybody. Somebody else might find that Shotokan works better than Goju Ryu in self defense for them. So they would be better off going with Shotokan if they want to be able to defend themselves. It varies from person to person. Everybody is different. There is no one style that works best for every single person whether the goal is to be able to win tournaments, defend yourself, ect.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 21, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> That and I don't do competitions.


No true champion does.


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## Anarax (Sep 21, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Im training in Goju Ryu right now. My Shi-to Ryu training, which I've been doing for years before I started Goju Ryu, has usually been more intense, even at the beginner levels.



I've never studied Shi-to ryu. The point of my post was explaining to the OP my experience with Goju. Second, I made the point the training culture is important, not the system itself.


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## Buka (Sep 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> No true champion does.



Then....how does he become a champion?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 21, 2017)

Buka said:


> Then....how does he become a champion?


Everyone just naturally acknowledges his champion ability. He does not need to prove it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 21, 2017)

Buka said:


> Then....how does he become a champion?


It's all in his ki.


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## CB Jones (Sep 21, 2017)

And he has the bone structure of a Kung fu genious


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## ballen0351 (Sep 21, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> That more closely resembles ground and pound MMA than Goju Ryu.


Yes because prior to MMA nobody every though of holding your opponent down and punching them......


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## ballen0351 (Sep 21, 2017)

...


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 22, 2017)

ballen0351 said:


> Yes because prior to MMA nobody every though of holding your opponent down and punching them......


Don't be silly. There is no "prior to MMA". Back then, there was nothing - not even a "then".


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Don't be silly. There is no "prior to MMA". Back then, there was nothing - not even a "then".



In ancient Greece they had a form of MMA called Pankration and no doubt well before that they had MMA in some form or another.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Don't be silly. There is no "prior to MMA". Back then, there was nothing - not even a "then".



In ancient Greece they had a form of MMA called Pankration and no doubt well before that they had MMA in some form or another.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Don't be silly. There is no "prior to MMA". Back then, there was nothing - not even a "then".



In ancient Greece they had a form of MMA called Pankration and no doubt well before that they had MMA in some form or another.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 22, 2017)

I've been having technical difficulties. Im not sure if its the website or my computer or my internet connection but my last post before this one poster three times. I wish I could erase two of them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've been having technical difficulties. Im not sure if its the website or my computer or my internet connection but my last post before this one poster three times. I wish I could erase two of them.


It's the site. It does that from time to time.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> In ancient Greece they had a form of MMA called Pankration and no doubt well before that they had MMA in some form or another.


Even then, there had to be at least two separate martial arts in existence before there was "mixed" martial arts. Otherwise, what would you mix together?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 22, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Even then, there had to be at least two separate martial arts in existence before there was "mixed" martial arts. Otherwise, what would you mix together?


What part of "there was nothing before MMA" didn't you understand. Time didn't exist before MMA - there was no "before".


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## drop bear (Sep 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> What part of "there was nothing before MMA" didn't you understand. Time didn't exist before MMA - there was no "before".



No. Every martial art had its own elements. Only the Avatar could master all of them.


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## Martial D (Sep 22, 2017)

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning, Bob created MMA, and it was good.


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