# Violence against women



## Malleus (Apr 7, 2010)

Hopefully a polarising topic, and an apt one for a martial arts forum.

I am not talking about spousal abuse (though it&#8217;s still worth noting that there are actually a growing number of men who are the victims of spousal abuse), but rather the following hypothetical situation: An angry woman/ group of women attacks you (I&#8217;m assuming you&#8217;re a man, apologies to female readers!) on the street for a slight, real or perceived. Do you hit back?

Some hard facts:
1) On average, a woman will be lighter than a man, resulting in decreased striking power compared with a male antagonist. (25 year old white male, 50th percentile= 76kgs : 25 year old white female, 50th percentile= 61kgs. http://www.halls.md/chart/men-weight-w.htm and http://www.halls.md/chart/women-weight-w.htm respectively)

2) On average, a woman will have significantly less muscle mass than a man, particularly notable in the upper body. This corresponds with less strength against a weight matched opponent, much less one with an average 15kg advantage. ( http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/1/81 ) 

3) Testosterone is present in far greater levels in men than women, and has been positively linked to aggression, although it is by no means the only factor influencing combative behaviour. (http://www.med.mcgill.ca/mjm/v06n01/v06p032/v06p032.pdf)

From these three basic facts, it is obvious that on average, a man is physiologically better built for a combat situation. Of course, on average is an important qualifier. There are many instances where average values will go out the window and the physiological advantage will go towards the woman: a crude image would be to imagine a large, muscular woman fighting a smaller, lighter, less fit male. 

In addition, there is of course the mental aspect to fighting, and the skillsets acquired by both combatants. Testosterone may increase ones predelictions towards violence, but as Ms. Simpson notes in the third link provided, it is far and away from being the only factor influencing aggression. Of course, training in martial arts would hopefully be a benefit to a fighter, therefore there&#8217;s a further possibility that the woman aggressor may be even more dangerous.

It seems self-evident, to me at least, that there&#8217;s a huge social taboo against hitting a woman, no matter the circumstances. It&#8217;s a damned if you do, damned if you don&#8217;t situation. If you hit a woman, even in self defence, you&#8217;ve broken a major social code. Real men do not hit women. And god forbid that you get beaten up by a woman, for despite political correctness, there&#8217;s still a sense of ignomy and stigma attached.

A (slightly melodramatic) example of the male's psyche follows:
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz125/malleus10/preachercopy.jpg
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz125/malleus10/preacher2.jpg

So, how would you feel trading blows with a woman in a self defence situation? And how does the prospect of engaging in heavy sparring with a female martial artist strike you? Ladies, of course, feel free to weigh in from your perspective. I'm assuming you wouldn't have the same moral objections to hitting a woman as men would, but I may be wrong.

Take care,
Malleus.


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## MJS (Apr 7, 2010)

Seeing that you're asking two different questions, I'll address each seperately. 

1) On the SD issue: If at all possible, I'd attempt to restrain the female.  However, I'm not going to play games.  In other words, if that is not working, I'd up my level of force, and if that meant actually hitting her, then so be it.  

More than 1 person..well, the odds are already stacked against me, so again, I'll adjust accordingly.

Please dont take anything I'm saying as me saying that I advocate violence against women.  A husband, boyfriend, etc., that beats their significant other...sorry, that stuff doesn't fly well with me.  

2) On the issue of sparring: Make no mistake about it, there are women out there that are tougher fighters than some males I know.  I've seen and trained with quite a few.  Usually the contact level is set prior to the sparring match, so if a female isn't comfortable with sparring with a male, she of course has the option of opting out.


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## MA-Caver (Apr 7, 2010)

Growing up, my father taught me that there is NO REASON to hit a woman... PERIOD! Now-a-days I know he was right! With an exception: when no other alternative remains after trying everything (talking to reason, evasion, blocking and holding), then the strike should be enough to shock not hurt or even maim. Not trying to be chivalrous or even macho a - mano-a-mano type just logical and sensible. 
Best example I have is the only time I purposely did hit a woman (open hand slap to her face) was to stop her from kicking, scratching and hitting me when all attempts to reason and block her were to no avail. Finally managing to grab her wrists and put both in one hand and then the quick snap to the face to shock her to stillness and get her to listen and explain the reason for her attack upon me. 
I still felt bad about that. Since then have taken pains to learn how to subdue someone without having to strike them if necessary ("...do not hurt where holding is enough..."). 

Your (hypothetical) situation sounds surrealistic and implausible to me. Can't imagine where I'd end up in a situation to defend myself against a group of women intent on hurting me seriously or even mildly. I just don't think I'm that STUPID enough to get into that kind of situation. In fact I don't see how I'd be stupid enough to get into that situation with a bunch of guys either. 
Awareness and common sense and watching what you say/do around groups of people helps go a LONG way in avoiding such situations IMO. A group of girls involved with a gang and needing to make a score/hit/whatever... might be one possible scenario... but circumstances would have to be perfect for that to even happen... :idunno: Sorry, just ain't that STUPID. Don't go where gangs are frequented and don't get one self into that situation in the first place. 

I did on one occasion had a "larger than me" woman confront me with the intent of bashing my face in... a body builder type amazon, that I met when I was out with some lesbian co-workers/friends after work and she felt that I didn't belong there (girl bar) and was drunk enough at the time to want to do something about it. 
Double talking my way to postponing the inevitable and having my (lesbian) girl-friends come to my aid helped, having frequented the bar enough (with those co-workers) to where the management knew I was "harmless & respectful" helped out as well. Later, that gal and I became good friends. 
Now-a-days... well... I just don't go in to bars anymore. So that scenario is marked out. 
Remember the words of Bruce Lee... the mind is the most powerful weapon. Use it and you likely won't need to use your MA-skills as much as you think you will. Continue to train, but remember to train the brain, it can defeat your antagonists faster and more effectively than your muscles and skills. 

Agreed with MJS... sparring is a wholly different matter... both have intent and purposes when meeting each other. Rules of engagement (for lack of a better term) should be observed. It's in the Dojo and (hopefully) supervised by competent instructors who know how to judge/rule proper hits and etc. Man or woman it shouldn't matter much except in regards to skill level and size/strength ratio. Knowing when to quit or how much to pull back when making a strike/kick. Both of you are sparring to learn not to one-up each other. 

:asian:


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## Empty Hands (Apr 7, 2010)

I would treat that hypothetical situation the same as I would any other situation involving males: use the minimum justifiable force necessary to avoid serious injury.  Most of the time that will involve much less force if any at all than if a male was involved; but it could involve deadly force in self-defense.


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## Carol (Apr 7, 2010)

Malleus said:


> Ladies, of course, feel free to weigh in from your perspective. I'm assuming you wouldn't have the same moral objections to hitting a woman as men would, but I may be wrong.



I think many of us moral objection to hitting someone, period.

This was a post I made shortly after joining MT in 2006:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=484532&postcount=44

I will admit it took me awhile to get over that weird feeling.  I did exactly what I was supposed to do, but it still made me feel sick.  I suspect the arts aren't as appealing to many women as other forms of exercise for similar reasons. 

In terms of men hitting women in training, the guys that go too easy on their female classmates do us females a dangerous disservice...if self-defense is the goal.   Steamrolling a white belt half your size may not be appropriate, but we need to feel how hard you guys can really go in order to truly appreciate what we must do to protect ourselves. :asian:


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## MA-Caver (Apr 7, 2010)

Carol said:


> In terms of men hitting women in training, the guys that go too easy on their female classmates do us females a dangerous disservice...if self-defense is the goal.   Steamrolling a white belt half your size may not be appropriate, but we need to feel how hard you guys can really go in order to truly appreciate what we must do to protect ourselves. :asian:


That may be true but even against men nobody hits FULL FORCE... some folks can give a 60% punch and some can take it but unless one is able to fully appreciate the damage that a full-force punch/kick can do then going easy is the way to train... strength building is a much (or should be) a part of MA-training as techniques & forms. A white belt won't be as strong initially (usually) as one who is a blue or green belt. 
Being a uke for Ceicei at one time as she progressed through her belts up to 1st Brown (or is it 4th?... never could get them straight--Kenpo) I could feel her getting stronger with each progressive belt. Thus is the idea so that one is not only strong enough to inflict the blows ... but strong enough to take 'em. :asian:


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## Blade96 (Apr 7, 2010)

Carol said:


> In terms of men hitting women in training, the guys that go too easy on their female classmates do us females a dangerous disservice...if self-defense is the goal.   Steamrolling a white belt half your size may not be appropriate, but we need to feel how hard you guys can really go in order to truly appreciate what we must do to protect ourselves. :asian:



I often have to tell higher belts to punch harder at me. because I can block well and can take it. Can kick sharp too. I sometimes have to yell, "Ok, you guys, I'm warmed up now, how about throwing punches instead of creampuffs?!" Of course my friend (you know who) often does it intentionally just to get on my nerves


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## Carol (Apr 7, 2010)

MA-Caver said:


> That may be true but even against men nobody hits FULL FORCE... some folks can give a 60% punch and some can take it but unless one is able to fully appreciate the damage that a full-force punch/kick can do then going easy is the way to train... strength building is a much (or should be) a part of MA-training as techniques & forms. A white belt won't be as strong initially (usually) as one who is a blue or green belt.
> Being a uke for Ceicei at one time as she progressed through her belts up to 1st Brown (or is it 4th?... never could get them straight--Kenpo) I could feel her getting stronger with each progressive belt. Thus is the idea so that one is not only strong enough to inflict the blows ... but strong enough to take 'em. :asian:



This is why I said steamrolling a white belt half your size may not be appropriate.  

I think it is too easy for men and women alike to play tag or patty-cake with each other on the mat.  The stronger partner isn't learning control, the weaker partner isn't learning how to get hit.  But I don't think women should be insulated against what a larger and stronger partner can do to them.  It is not unusual for an advancing beginner to become overconfident in their abilities.  

Personally I am VERY glad I had the partners that would go at it with me.  Self-defense was a big motivator in training, and this revealed how vulnerable I could be against a much bigger and stronger guy.

It is work to break out of your comfort zone, whether its is learning how to use technique over muscle, learning how to ramp up the impact with another student, learning how to train with people you don't like, or learning how to hit (women, or in general).


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## girlbug2 (Apr 7, 2010)

An attacker is an attacker. We learn to go full force in real life self defense, and as we progress upwards in rank, we learn to tone it down to fit the gray area situations. So whether man or woman--meet the perceived threat with the appropriate level of force, and according to one's level of training.

And, if I were ever dumb enough to be the attacker, it's only right for the  "victim" to do the same to me.

Now a male would probably be taller than me, and stronger. He may not feel as threatened by an attack from me as I would by an attack from him. So he may very well perceive less of a need to use maximum force than I would. OTOH if I came after him with obvious intent for his blood, he would be justified in using maximum force to defend himself, if that's what it took. And I'd deserve whatever I got.

Many women would disagree with this philosophy, but I suspect that few of them would be serious martial artists.


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## Carol (Apr 7, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I often have to tell higher belts to punch harder at me. because I can block well and can take it. Can kick sharp too. I sometimes have to yell, "Ok, you guys, I'm warmed up now, how about throwing punches instead of creampuffs?!" Of course my friend (you know who) often does it intentionally just to get on my nerves



LOL!  I just might steal that line about throwing punches instead of creampuffs.


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## jks9199 (Apr 7, 2010)

It's very simple.

When you attack me, I don't care who you are; you've lost the right to go through the rest of your life intact.  If you're lucky, you'll be stopped with injuries that will heal.  If you're not... You'll be stopped with injuries that won't heal.  If you're really unlucky, you'll be stopped, period.

Sometimes, my duties require me to arrest people.  Male or female.  If they won't go voluntarily, they'll go involuntarily.  With whatever force may be necessary to do make it happen.  It doesn't matter if they're male, female, aardvark or zebra.

All of this is a far cry from looking for a woman to beat on, or anything like that.  And has little to do with sparring or training.  It's unfair to my training partners, whether male or female, for me to hold back or treat them special because of gender, size, age, or infirmity.  The ogres out there won't...


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## Blade96 (Apr 7, 2010)

Carol said:


> LOL!  I just might steal that line about throwing punches instead of creampuffs.



hehehe. You can have it :uhyeah:

You can also have my line I made in my mawashi geri thread about planting someone so hard they take root =]


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## Tames D (Apr 7, 2010)

A male, under no circumstances, should strike a female. That's why we learned how to block.


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## MA-Caver (Apr 7, 2010)

girlbug2 said:


> An attacker is an attacker.


 This is very true and they should be treated accordingly in defending yourself against them. 


girlbug2 said:


> Now a male would probably be taller than me, and stronger. He may not feel as threatened by an attack from me as I would by an attack from him. So he may very well perceive less of a need to use maximum force than I would.


That may be true, but IMO any man who attacks a woman isn't a gentleman or going to be INCLINED to be a gentleman. Having briefly worked with battered women and hearing their stories I'm amazed that even half of them are even alive after seeing (the aftermath) /hearing how their male attacker (stranger, bf, husband, ex bf/husband, whomever) went after them. 
No, men can be extraordinary brutal creatures towards women. IMO the male who attacks a woman with a preconceived notion that he doesn't have to give her his all is a myth. Some women will either cower immediately because they're deathly afraid of being seriously hurt and others will fight back a little until it does hurt and then stop resisting and others will fight back hard and be beaten to submission and some are just outright beaten to death because they gave it all they got. A number manage to get away with their lives because they were being attacked by a real coward who themselves were afraid of being hurt themselves and were over confident and misjudged the intensity of their intended victim's resolve to fight back. A few managed to get away with their lives because they fought back (hard) against a willful attacker hell bent on giving the woman "what (he felt) she deserves".


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 8, 2010)

The easiest one first: I have no problems with sparring with females. If we agree on the same level of contact, gender is as irrelevant as race. When I did modern jujutsu, I sparred with women regularly (sparring was done in a sort of rotation so you never knew whom you'd fight).

Similarly, during grappling it sometimes happened that I'd accidentally cupped a breast or put my hand on her bottom. I assume that women are capable enough to judge whether something is fondling or just a result of a hand and a body part occupying the same location in spacetime. I never had a problem with it and I assume neither did the women. This sort of thing happens.

Now to the self defense aspect: I believe that the response should be warranted by the attack. I am (somewhat) experienced in MA, fairly strong and in shape, and if an untrained, non-intoxicated female tried to hit while in an emotional state, I would probably only need to fend off the blows or grab the wrists.

If otoh more than one female attacked me with knives, with the intent to really do harm, it is basically a deadly assault and should be treated with the same seriousness and intention of self preservation. Totally different scenario.

I don't know what my critical thinking skills would be at such a time. Even in such a situation, a wise man would consider the aftermath. In today's society, judges and juries have a dim view of a man beating up a woman unless murderous intent can be proven. If it comes down to he-said-she-said, males are often at a disadvantage.


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## Carol (Apr 8, 2010)

Ugly domestic violence story that results in the battering wife being charged:

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/664681-196/woman-gets-time-served-for-domestic-assault.html

I don't know if this qualifies as a domestic as they do not live together.  A woman threw knives at her brother and his young son, when they were in her home.  Disturbing, nonetheless.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/685792-196/woman-threw-knives-at-brother-police-charge.html


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## Stac3y (Apr 8, 2010)

Carol said:


> In terms of men hitting women in training, the guys that go too easy on their female classmates do us females a dangerous disservice...


 
And they often get the cr@p kicked out of them. I don't consider it beneath me to nail a guy because he refuses to hit a woman with any force.


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## KELLYG (Apr 8, 2010)

The biggest problem I see with a man "defending" himself against a female attacker is he/said she/said result of the self defense.  Most folks seeing two people marked up one male and one female assume that the male is the attacker.  A lot of women will use this "preconceived" notion to cause further problems for the man she attacked IE having them arrested.  

I think that a woman attacker can be a real threat on more than one level.  As with any self defense scenario the least amount of force that can be used to effectively protect yourself is what should be done.


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## Andy Moynihan (Apr 8, 2010)

Would I attempt to end it with as little violence as possible? Yes, within reason, same as I would with a male.

But I won't discriminate. Criminal assault is criminal assault, period.

A group of assailants will be considered by me to be deadly force regardless of gender, unless, like, by some freak circumstance I am beset by 37 walker-wielding grannies, in which case I can simply walk away at normal speed. *shrug*


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## bekkilyn (Apr 8, 2010)

Andy Moynihan said:


> A group of assailants will be considered by me to be deadly force regardless of gender, unless, like, by some freak circumstance I am beset by 37 walker-wielding grannies, in which case I can simply walk away at normal speed. *shrug*


 
If this were to happen, please find some way to at least take a picture.


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## grydth (Apr 8, 2010)

Andy Moynihan said:


> A group of assailants will be considered by me to be deadly force regardless of gender, unless, like, by some freak circumstance I am beset by 37 walker-wielding grannies, in which case I can simply walk away at normal speed. *shrug*



Danger Will Robinson! 

We had a granny, must've been 65 - 70 at least, in our class a month back... at the end she got on one of the biggest Harleys I've seen and roared out of the dojo lot....walk away at normal speed and you'll be road kill!


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## Big Don (Apr 8, 2010)

Tames D said:


> A male, under no circumstances, should strike a female. That's why we learned how to block.


But, every block IS a strike...


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## Blade96 (Apr 9, 2010)

kelly said:
			
		

> I think that a woman attacker can be a real threat on more than one  level



Indeed.

women can be vicious. I had a friend I was friends with for almost ten years from 1993 to new years 1999. on the night we had a party to celebrate the coming of the year 2000, this young woman, who was built like butch, suddenly went crazy and turned on me. The reason? I had dated a guy and she didnt wanna hear it. I suspect she was also upset i went away to university and she had less control cause she did the same thing to another one of her friends when she went to university. I got out of the house before she got physically violent. The verbal stuff was bad though. (of course knew no martial arts then.)


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