# Seeking Kukkiwon practitioners' thoughts on the Kukkiwon Membership System



## lifespantkd (Feb 16, 2012)

I am interested in Kukkiwon practitioners' thoughts on the Kukkiwon Membership System: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/front...629&category=1&pageNum=1&searchKey=&searchVal=

If you study Kukkiwon Taekwondo, is your dojang owner a member in this system? If you are the owner of a dojang and teach Kukkiwon Taekwondo, do you participate in this? Why or why not? 

Thank you,

Cynthia


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 16, 2012)

This is new to me, but I think that it is a good thing.  I'd welcome Glenn, Master Cole's or Master Stoker's thoughts on the topic, as I suspect that they are more in the know about it than I am.


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## mastercole (Feb 16, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This is new to me, but I think that it is a good thing.  I'd welcome Glenn, Master Cole's or Master Stoker's thoughts on the topic, as I suspect that they are more in the know about it than I am.



I believe it is an additional effort by Kukkiwon to bring world wide instructors closer to the source of Taekwondo information, experience and education.


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## terryl965 (Feb 16, 2012)

It is so instructors can educate themself and there students while the KKW can keep better track of its members. I see this as a positive for KKW TKD, so many times people tend to get the WTF and KKW as one. In reality they are two seperate venue for TKD one is supplying the ruleset for sport TKD while the other is more on the line of TKD. What I would love to see one day is the WTF issueing a BB for those that only do the sport side of TKD and completely seperate itself from the KKW side. Lets see if that will ever happen inmy lifetime.


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## mastercole (Feb 16, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> It is so instructors can educate themself and there students while the KKW can keep better track of its members. I see this as a positive for KKW TKD, so many times people tend to get the WTF and KKW as one. In reality they are two seperate venue for TKD one is supplying the ruleset for sport TKD while the other is more on the line of TKD. What I would love to see one day is the WTF issueing a BB for those that only do the sport side of TKD and completely seperate itself from the KKW side. Lets see if that will ever happen inmy lifetime.



I don't know if the Kukkiwon wants to actually track it's members, it does however want better communication with Taekwondoin around the world and provide Taekwondoin with direct access to Kukkiwon.

Depending on your age, the separation of Dan issuing already happened during your lifetime. From February 16, 1982 to January 1, 1988 the Kukkiwon did hand over Dan certification process of non-Korean practitioners to the WTF. Being that the WTF's job was to help set up and assist Member National Associations of the WTF in other nations, this might have seemed to make sense. But they decided that everyone would have a relationship with Kukkiwon, not separating any one group from the other.


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## lifespantkd (Feb 16, 2012)

This statement is at the bottom of the application form right above the signature: "My members, instructors and I agree to comply with the rules and regulations of the KUKKIWON." This can be interpreted to mean that one goal of this membership system is to bring Kukkiwon dojangs closer to Kukkiwon standards. Which leads to a question of how well most Kukkiwon Taekwondo practitioners and, particularly, Kukkiwon Taekwondo instructors/dojang owners understand Kukkiwon standards and teach to them.

Cynthia


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2012)

Personally, I do not see anything different with KMS than how it was previously. I still fill out applications the same way. There are certain additional benefits if you process a lot of poom/dan applications, which is good. And you get another kukkiwon certificate, which people like, so there is that as well. But it does violate the agreement that kukkiwon had with ustc.


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## lifespantkd (Feb 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> Personally, I do not see anything different with KMS than how it was previously. I still fill out applications the same way. There are certain additional benefits if you process a lot of poom/dan applications, which is good. And you get another kukkiwon certificate, which people like, so there is that as well. But it does violate the agreement that kukkiwon had with ustc.



How does it violate the agreement that the Kukkiwon had with USTC?

Thank you,

Cynthia


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## lifespantkd (Feb 16, 2012)

So, is anyone here actually a member of the Kukkiwon Membership System?

Cynthia


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2012)

lifespantkd said:


> How does it violate the agreement that the Kukkiwon had with USTC?



Can't talk about it at the moment.


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2012)

lifespantkd said:


> So, is anyone here actually a member of the Kukkiwon Membership System?



I am. You get a certificate, a full sized kukkiwon flag, some stickers.


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## mastercole (Feb 16, 2012)

lifespantkd said:


> This statement is at the bottom of the application form right above the signature: "My members, instructors and I agree to comply with the rules and regulations of the KUKKIWON." This can be interpreted to mean that one goal of this membership system is to bring Kukkiwon dojangs closer to Kukkiwon standards. Which leads to a question of how well most Kukkiwon Taekwondo practitioners and, particularly, Kukkiwon Taekwondo instructors/dojang owners understand Kukkiwon standards and teach to them.
> 
> Cynthia



Like puunui stated I believe more and more instructors are beginning to search out the standard. I my self have not read into the membership system, I was told about it. I have been involved for a longtime, I think it was really designed to get more people involved.


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## mastercole (Feb 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> I am. You get a certificate, a full sized kukkiwon flag, some stickers.



What did you have to do to join the Kukkiwon Member System?


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## lifespantkd (Feb 16, 2012)

mastercole said:


> What did you have to do to join the Kukkiwon Member System?



There's a link to an application document on the page that I provided the link to in my opening post. It looks like you just complete the application and email/fax/mail it in. It asks for basic information, including Kukkiwon dan level, Kukkiwon dan certification number, contact information, number of dojangs....and an agreement to abide by the rules and regulations of the Kukkiwon. So, the application process doesn't look too involved.

Cynthia


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2012)

mastercole said:


> What did you have to do to join the Kukkiwon Member System?



The gentleman in charge of the Pan Am region for the Kukkiwon, Mr. Lee (who I have known for over ten years back when he was Dr. Kim's personal secretary) told me he would just process me for KMS, known as KOMS back then, since he had all my information already. Really nice guy, when he found out I was a book collector he opened up this storage room at the Kukkiwon right outside of the president's office, which was filled with books, and said I could have whatever I wanted. It was like being a kid in a candy store. That's when I got that extra copy of the 25th anniversary album for you. He has since moved to the Academy side.


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## mastercole (Feb 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> The gentleman in charge of the Pan Am region for the Kukkiwon, Mr. Lee (who I have known for over ten years back when he was Dr. Kim's personal secretary) told me he would just process me for KMS, known as KOMS back then, since he had all my information already. Really nice guy, when he found out I was a book collector he opened up this storage room at the Kukkiwon right outside of the president's office, which was filled with books, and said I could have whatever I wanted. It was like being a kid in a candy store. That's when I got that extra copy of the 25th anniversary album for you. He has since moved to the Academy side.



That was very kind of you to send me that album. I have showed that book to a number of Korean born Taekwondo instructors. Most had never seen it. They get all excited and start looking through it finding the names of their instructors, seniors, juniors and in some cases, there own name or own picture. When ever I bring visitors to the Kukkiwon, they are always so kind and helpful, showering them with posters, pins, flags, books, etc.  They set a good example and don't think of what you can do for them. Just like you having access to a gold mine of books at the Kukkiwon, but thinking of others instead of just your self.


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## mastercole (Feb 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> I am. You get a certificate, a full sized kukkiwon flag, some stickers.



I don't have any kind of flags, certificates, awards or photos hanging in any of my dojangs.  They are very Spartan, very Seon (Zen) like. Maybe I should sign up so I can get the new Kukkiwon flag and hang it up somewhere, just to surprise the students.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 16, 2012)

lifespantkd said:


> I am interested in Kukkiwon practitioners' thoughts on the Kukkiwon Membership System: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/front...629&category=1&pageNum=1&searchKey=&searchVal=
> 
> If you study Kukkiwon Taekwondo, is your dojang owner a member in this system? If you are the owner of a dojang and teach Kukkiwon Taekwondo, do you participate in this? Why or why not?



I joined once I got my 5th Dan for two reasons - 1) to support the Kukkiwon and be counted as a number and 2) so that I can process dan grades for my students and other people I want to help to get standard certification.

The goodies you get are very nice - here's a picture I uploaded to Facebook after I got my (surprise, wasn't expecting anything) package in the post:

View attachment $307806_10150467843653455_646538454_10843099_1551869831_n.jpg


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## mastercole (Feb 16, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> I joined once I got my 5th Dan for two reasons - 1) to support the Kukkiwon and be counted as a number and 2) so that I can process dan grades for my students and other people I want to help to get standard certification.
> 
> The goodies you get are very nice - here's a picture I uploaded to Facebook after I got my (surprise, wasn't expecting anything) package in the post:
> 
> View attachment 16108



Well, I am convinced.  I shall have to finally, after all these years, become a Kukkiwon member 

That makes me wonder, since I have never been a member of the World Taekwondo Federation, maybe I can join that too, then after all these years of being a Taekwondoin, I would finally be a member of both.


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## Poomsaeguy (Feb 16, 2012)

I am a member as well as my Dojang ( RO1-8491) I was in Korea for the KOMS luanch party. I was and is my Honor!


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## FieldDiscipline (Feb 19, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> I joined once I got my 5th Dan



Is that a requirement or can anybody join?  If a KKW 1,2,3 or 4th dan was running a school could he join and what is the benefit?   I couldn't see a dan level specified on the form.  I did see it said master - is this where the KKW have set the "master level" now - 5th degree?  I've noted WTF has that for 1st degree now in places.

Is there anything else to it other than some nice freebies?  What information do they send you if any?  Does it help you in any way?


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## andyjeffries (Feb 19, 2012)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Is that a requirement or can anybody join?  If a KKW 1,2,3 or 4th dan was running a school could he join and what is the benefit?   I couldn't see a dan level specified on the form.  I did see it said master - is this where the KKW have set the "master level" now - 5th degree?  I've noted WTF has that for 1st degree now in places.



You have to be a 4th Dan or above.  It's to create an online account so that you can put in for dan promotions.



FieldDiscipline said:


> Is there anything else to it other than some nice freebies?  What information do they send you if any?  Does it help you in any way?



Only in that you have to have it to promote your students and it helps them to have you counted.


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## Kinghercules (Feb 20, 2012)

lifespantkd said:


> I am interested in Kukkiwon practitioners' thoughts on the Kukkiwon Membership System: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/front...629&category=1&pageNum=1&searchKey=&searchVal=
> 
> If you study Kukkiwon Taekwondo, is your dojang owner a member in this system? If you are the owner of a dojang and teach Kukkiwon Taekwondo, do you participate in this? Why or why not?
> 
> ...



I dont see whats the big deal about the Kukkiwon.  Its just and association.
And from what Ive seen you dont have to do much or know much to become a member, just pay the fee and you're in.
I use to work at a school that was certified my the KKW but they are ITF based. 
So its like you dont have to do anything but pay the money and you're in.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 20, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> I dont see whats the big deal about the Kukkiwon. *Its just and association*.


Kind of stating the obvious here.  You could say the same thing about the FIE too.  They're just an association.  But if you want to fence in the Olympics, see how far you get without them.  

Sure, the Kukkiwon is just an association.  But it is an association that was formed by the pioneers of the art, not just a group of people practicing an existing art who didn't like the status quo and started their own group.  Nothing wrong with the latter, but such organizations carry less influence than the former.



Kinghercules said:


> And from what Ive seen


Which is?



Kinghercules said:


> you dont have to do much or know much to become a member, just pay the fee and you're in.


Really?  Please show me the "pay for a membership card and you're in" button on the Kukkiwon site: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/front...629&category=1&pageNum=1&searchKey=&searchVal

You know, the one where you gain 'membership' soley by paying. In order to utilize the membership program, you need to be a fourth dan KKW, which involves a lot more than just paying money. 



Kinghercules said:


> I use to work at a school that was certified my the KKW but they are ITF based.



Given that this program only came out a little more than a year ago, if you school is part of it, then your kwanjang is a fourth dan-plus KKW taekwondoin. That means that he has had a fairly lengthy tenure as a Kukkiwon yudanja.

When you say that the school is ITF based, what do you mean by that?

And in what capacity were you employed? (not pertinent to the topic; simply curious.)


Kinghercules said:


> So its like you dont have to do anything but pay the money and you're in.


Again, please support this statement with some actual facts.


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## Archtkd (Feb 20, 2012)

lifespantkd said:


> So, is anyone here actually a member of the Kukkiwon Membership System?
> 
> Cynthia


I am and it's a fairly easy process. You have to be 4th Dan and there was once talk that you also had to be a certified Kukkiwon instructor, but I don't know that is the case.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 20, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> I am and it's a fairly easy process. You have to be 4th Dan and there was once talk that you also had to be a certified Kukkiwon instructor, but I don't know that is the case.



It certainly wasn't when I joined (early 2011) as I'm not (yet).


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## Kinghercules (Feb 20, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Kind of stating the obvious here.  You could say the same thing about the FIE too.  They're just an association.  But if you want to fence in the Olympics, see how far you get without them.
> 
> Sure, the Kukkiwon is just an association.  But it is an association that was formed by the pioneers of the art, not just a group of people practicing an existing art who didn't like the status quo and started their own group.  Nothing wrong with the latter, but such organizations carry less influence than the former.
> 
> ...



I taught class.

They did ITF forms and erything went back to Gen Choi.  ITF based.
He had trained under GM John Holloway and thats probably how he got the KKW certification. Because GM Holloway taught ITF style but was associated with the KKW.

I was offered a KKW dan when I was teaching at that school and in Busan and when I was in Cambodia.  All I had to do was pay a fee.
I didnt do it cause I didnt see a purpose to having one.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 20, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> I taught class.
> 
> They did ITF forms and erything went back to Gen Choi. ITF based.


When you say 'ITF based,' what does that mean?  What forms were you using and what sparring rule set did you use? 



Kinghercules said:


> He had trained under GM John Holloway and thats probably how he got the KKW certification. Because GM Holloway taught ITF style but was associated with the KKW.


Well, GM Holloway didn't become associated with the Kukkiwon by accident. And if he was able to offer KKW certificates, then he was at least fourth dan in the organization.  Is the school and GM Holloway actually part of the ITF or were they issuing dojang dans with a KKW certification option?

So essentially, you really haven't seen anything of the Kukkiwon as an organization or of a Kukkiwon school; you are assuming that since your instructor and his GM are both KKW certified and offered you, presumably a yudanja at that point, the option to be as well that that is all that there is to being a part of the Kukkiwon.


Kinghercules said:


> I was offered a KKW dan when I was teaching at that school and in Busan and when I was in Cambodia. All I had to do was pay a fee.
> I didnt do it cause I didnt see a purpose to having one.


This was probably based on you already being a first or higher dan under a master who was also Kukkiwon. Sounds like he was willing to register you as an ildan with the KKW. But you had to be training under someone and also had to have a taekwondo background, so you at least had to know what you knew at the time, which I assume is a fair amount given that you were an instructor.

So there really _was_ more than just paying the fee. Had you shown up with no experience in the art whatsoever and asked to pay for a dan grade, the conversation would have gone differently.


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## mastercole (Feb 20, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> I taught class.
> 
> They did ITF forms and erything went back to Gen Choi.  ITF based.
> He had trained under GM John Holloway and thats probably how he got the KKW certification. Because GM Holloway taught ITF style but was associated with the KKW.
> ...



I can certainly understand that you did not see a purpose in accepting the offer for Kukkiwon certification. However the man that you speak of, GM John Holloway who teaches an ITF curriculum to this very day, did accept Kukkiwon certification long ago, and his teacher GM Dong Ja Yang saw a great value in offering that to GM Holloway, and many other Taekwondoin. It was a first step in forming a closer relationship with the greater Taekwondo world and GM Holloway is a great example of what can be achieved by being involved in the greater Taekwondo world.


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## Kinghercules (Feb 20, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> When you say 'ITF based,' what does that mean?  What forms were you using and what sparring rule set did you use?
> 
> 
> Well, GM Holloway didn't become associated with the Kukkiwon by accident. And if he was able to offer KKW certificates, then he was at least fourth dan in the organization.  Is the school and GM Holloway actually part of the ITF or were they issuing dojang dans with a KKW certification option?
> ...



Man come now...who da hell does that?
Like Ima walk into a dojo and ask to buy a BB.  Seriously?
I thought it was obvious that I've been trainin in TKD.
But I guess it wasnt......my bad.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Well, I am convinced.  I shall have to finally, after all these years, become a Kukkiwon member
> 
> That makes me wonder, since I have never been a member of the World Taekwondo Federation, maybe I can join that too, then after all these years of being a Taekwondoin, I would finally be a member of both.



My sarcasm meter is pinging like crazy...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 20, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Man come now...who da hell does that?
> Like Ima walk into a dojo and ask to buy a BB. Seriously?


You said, "_So its like you dont have to do anything but pay the money and you're in_." My response is that you did more than just walk in off of the street and pay a fee, which you statement implies is all that one needs to do; not that you did so yourself.  



Kinghercules said:


> I thought it was obvious that I've been trainin in TKD.
> But I guess it wasnt......my bad.


Okay, you ignored nearly all of what I posted and asked you.  None of which I would have asked you if I hadn't thought that you trained in TKD. 

So, I will try this again:

When you say 'ITF based,' what does that mean? What forms were you using and what sparring rule set did you use? 

Is the school and GM Holloway actually part of the ITF or were they issuing dojang dans with a KKW certification option?


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## mastercole (Feb 20, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> My sarcasm meter is pinging like crazy...



Well, it's true, I have never been a member of the Kukkiwon, or the WTF. I have been on a committee or two, but never a member.


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## mastercole (Feb 20, 2012)

Originally Posted by *Daniel Sullivan* 


_When you say 'ITF based,' what does that mean? What forms were you using and what sparring rule set did you use? 


Well, GM Holloway didn't become associated with the Kukkiwon by accident. And if he was able to offer KKW certificates, then he was at least fourth dan in the organization. Is the school and GM Holloway actually part of the ITF or were they issuing dojang dans with a KKW certification option?

So essentially, you really haven't seen anything of the Kukkiwon as an organization or of a Kukkiwon school; you are assuming that since your instructor and his GM are both KKW certified and offered you, presumably a yudanja at that point, the option to be as well that that is all that there is to being a part of the Kukkiwon.

This was probably based on you already being a first or higher dan under a master who was also Kukkiwon. Sounds like he was willing to register you as an ildan with the KKW. But you had to be training under someone and also had to have a taekwondo background, so you at least had to know what you knew at the time, which I assume is a fair amount given that you were an instructor.

So there really was more than just paying the fee. Had you shown up with no experience in the art whatsoever and asked to pay for a dan grade, the conversation would have gone differently._



Kinghercules said:


> Man come now...who da hell does that?
> Like Ima walk into a dojo and ask to buy a BB.  Seriously?
> I thought it was obvious that I've been trainin in TKD.
> But I guess it wasnt......my bad.



Daniel's point if correct. Whoever it was, was not offering to register some non-Taekwondo guy with the Kukkiwon. They had confidence in you and offered you the opportunity to be involved in the greater, big wide world of Taekwondo, the one that your teacher, GM Ki Whang Kim was involved in. 

I don't see that offer as a negative, I see it as an opportunity, like that one extended to GM Holloway.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Well, it's true, I have never been a member of the Kukkiwon, or the WTF. I have been on a committee or two, but never a member.



And given your closeness to them I can't imagine you're now going to join for a flag and another certificate ;-)


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## mastercole (Feb 20, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> And given your closeness to them I can't imagine you're now going to join for a flag and another certificate ;-)



I certainly am happy to learn what they offer, but I don't know if I would actually consider that "close" or even that I have a close relationship with Kukkiwon. I know it seems odd for me to say so, but seriously, I'd like to have the flag and hang it up in the school, we don't have one.


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## puunui (Feb 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I know it seems odd for me to say so, but seriously, I'd like to have the flag and hang it up in the school, we don't have one.




If you want, you can have my flag, and the stickers too. All of that stuff is still in the box that it came in in my kma book room.


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## irgordon (Dec 11, 2012)

http://kms.kukkiwon.or.kr/usr/club/find.do

They have a database you can search...you can also look up your Kukkiwon DAN here: http://kms.kukkiwon.or.kr/usr/check.do


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## Tony49 (May 20, 2013)

I know this is an old thread, but wondering if anyone has signed up for the new KMS or do you just go through your GM or national organization.


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## andyjeffries (May 21, 2013)

Tony49 said:


> I know this is an old thread, but wondering if anyone has signed up for the new KMS or do you just go through your GM or national organization.



You lost me a bit with this, I thought the whole thread (from early 2012) was about the KMS?

Or do you mean specifically "signed up on the relaunched-this-year KMS website"?


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## Tony49 (May 21, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> You lost me a bit with this, I thought the whole thread (from early 2012) was about the KMS?
> 
> Or do you mean specifically "signed up on the relaunched-this-year KMS website"?



Sorry, yes the whole new KMS website and how are things going?  My wife belongs to a USA TKD organization and we have to send our Items there first and it takes a while to get anything back.  With out going into details.  We are kind of getting re-certified into the whole KKW.  So we are looking into the whole KMS so once she is certified in KKW.


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