# I need help turning my Dojang around. (LONG POST)



## Choistic (Nov 3, 2018)

(Originally Posted on Reddit)
I need help turning my Dojang around. (LONG POST) • r/martialarts

To whoever is reading this,



I go to a Kukkiwon Studio. I am currently a 4th keup (Red belt) in Kukkiwon Style Taekwondo. Recently, I have gotten very concerned about the quality of my studio.

It started after one master of mine left the dojang to go to nursing school. He is a native Korean (like me) and studied martial arts at Yongin University in Korea. I started my training under him when I started martial arts 3 years ago. I could still remember the first class that I had with him. I was recovering after a suicide attempt and had anger issues because of constant bullying. I came into the studio to learn, in my own words, "kick my enemies' asses." He was the one to set me straight. He put me to (at the time) strenuous exercises of push ups, punches, kicks, and laps around the dojang. After a few classes, I noticed that I felt very happy whenever I punched a bag, kicked a paddle, or even had a sparring session (albeit a guided one) with some of the other students. I will always be grateful to him for opening up this chance to change my life.

But after he left, I started to notice that some things changed.

When he was around, we always had a chance to fail our belt tests. Our belt tests were categorized into several parts. Those were Poomsae, Sparring, Board Breaking, Self-Defense, and learning Korean.

He was very strict on Poomsae, requiring that we had the form memorized TO THE TEETH. In Taegeuk 4, for example, if someone's backfoot was not parallel to their front foot in a Apgubi (앞굽이) sogi, he or she had a penalty for his or her Poomsae. (Our form tests were based on him and other masters scoring us).

For sparring, we had to win to receive our next ranks. I failed several times trying to promote myself to the next rank by not scoring enough points during sparring. Even as I failed, each failure would teach me something about my sparring style. My master would comment that I was too slow or that I kicked too low or even that I exhausted myself and even gave me very good tips on how to improve my shortcomings. For example, I have low stamina. He put me to stamina training exercises like speed kicking and ladder footwork.

In board breaking, we had a set of hand and foot techniques that we had to master in order to pass to the next rank. If we were able to execute the technique correctly, we would pass. If we couldn't do it (like me in trying to do a tornado kick during my blue belt test), then we would fail. We would then be required to break the board with that specific technique. If we did, we passed. If we did not, we failed. We also had to use those techniques in a self defense setting. For example, to apply Taegeuk 1, I had to use the down block and roundhouse kick combination to the chest on my master and successfully strike my master (who had a hogu on) and counter his strikes by either dodging or blocking. Testing for application of Poomsae was one of my most favorite parts of the entire test.

For the last requirement, my master wanted us to learn Korean. I will admit that in the beginning it was a bit easy for me to do since I am Korean and it seemed to me that it was a bit unnecessary. But after a while, I understood why he wanted us to. When I went to my first sparring tournament, some of the judges were in fact Korean and barely spoke any English. Growing up, I never heard of commands like "Gam-Jeon" or colors like "Chong" or "Hon". Thanks to him, my teammates and I were able to understand any referee's shout. For Poomsae tournaments, our master drilled us in the Sino-Korean and Korean number system. He also told each of the techniques in English and Korean. He also drilled us in basic phrases like Hello, Goodbye, Ready, At Ease. He even taught us the word for Master, Dojang, Taegeuk, and even told the meaning of the phrase that we said in Korean to the flag. 차렷! 국기에 대하여! 경례! (Attention! Salute the flag! At ease!)

Now that he has left, everybody can pass the promotion tests even if they forget a step. The students who have lost in the sparring match get promoted anyway. We don't do self defense or board breaking anymore. And almost no one understands Korean, yet alone the phrase we say to the flag every class.

It is not just the tests though. The most of the instructors (except for the ones who studied under him, there are only few left) would sometimes forget the forms. Even during class session, I could point out their steps were different than the ones they did before. They're nice people, but I would rather have someone who is strict and effective than having a friendly one who lost their passion for the martial art they're teaching.

Another thing is that there are kids who are 2nd dan or higher. Please note, we have a junior black belt system. However after one sparring class, I talked to one girl who told me she would be testing for her 3rd dan. I couldn't believe my ears. She was a 10 year old fifth grader who I thought was in the junior black belt system. When I asked her how long she had been taking Taekwondo, she told me it was three years. THAT IS DEFINITELY NOT LONG ENOUGH TO GET A THIRD DAN, LET ALONE A LEGITIMATE BLACK BELT!

The final thing that I am concerned about is that we just started "no contact sparring." As the name implies, it sounds and is very ridiculous.

Ever since my master left, I have been trying to continue the example set by him. I purchase boards to test my hand and foot techniques, try to apply poomsae on my own time, and even get friends from other studios to train together so we can analyze each other's poomsae and self defense skills. But I don't know if that will be enough to keep my skills sharp.

I am afraid that my dojang is turning into a Mcdojang.

Please give me any tips what I can do to turn my dojang around. The last thing I want to do is go to other studio.



Thank you so much,

Choistic


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## Headhunter (Nov 3, 2018)

Leave....because simply your not an instructor based on what you've said here. It's not /your/ school you don't run it you can't force them to do anything. If you don't like it then leave it's as simple as that. Also the fact the instructors make mistakes isn't a big deal...they're human do you really think the old guy never made w single mistake? Everyone has their own style. Frankly I think you can get a bit to ott with things like foot positioning. If you don't like their style they're not making you stay


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## dvcochran (Nov 3, 2018)

Welcome to the forum. Hopefully you will get some helpful advise. I am a long time student at a WT(F)/Kukkiwon school and will say if my school was only that I would have left a long time ago. Take that for what it is worth. Who is your GM now? The way you say it, you school is being ran black belt by committee. Somebody has to be the leader. 
If you have the option to go workout elsewhere that sounds like your best course. You said you workout with people from other dojangs, why don't you go to several classes at the other schools and really measure the differences? 
Being under a dark cloud with no apparent hope is the wrong place to be. You are not in a position rank-wise to facilitate large scale changes in your dojang. If you believe otherwise, make it happen. 
It sounds like you are at a pretty large school. So there are many pieces you may not understand. I would recommend you reflect and make sure you are not just very sad that your original GM left and refusing to let anyone else take his place in your mind. Keep in touch and let us know how it is going.


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## Buka (Nov 4, 2018)

Welcome to martial Talk, Choistic.

Take a deep breath, relax. It's eventually going to be just fine.

First - why is going to another dojo so awful to you? I ask this honestly.


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## JR 137 (Nov 4, 2018)

If you’re not happy with the changes that have been made, find a new school. MA has this fantasy loyalty mystique. Truth is a lot of it is BS. If you’re buying into the loyalty aspect, and loyalty is a good thing, who are you loyal to? The person you were supposed to be loyal to (other than yourself) has left. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have.

I’m assuming you like the people there. That’s all fine and good. I get that it makes the decision harder, but from what you’ve written, you’re not happy even though you like the people around you. 

You’re not in any position of authority to make any changes. Do you honestly think you’re going to talk the people in charge into changing everything back to the way it was? Seriously think about that. They’re in charge and doing things the way they think they should be done. They’re not going to start failing students because you don’t think they deserve to pass. They’re not going to spar with harder contact because you think they should. They’re not going to bring back parts of the curriculum because you think they should be taught. They’re in charge, you’re not. Think about it this way - if you were a high ranking teacher who took over, would you listen to a relatively low ranking student and make changes because he thought that’s how it’s supposed to be? Or would you run things the way you thought they should be run?

You’re in love with what the place used to be, not what it has become and probably not what it’s going to be as more time goes by. You’re in love with the way your former teacher ran things, not what the current regime is doing. That whole loyalty thing is out the window here, as who you’re truly loyal to is no longer there. 

Keep training there while you look for a new dojo. Training something is better than nothing. No place is going to be exactly the way it was when your former teacher ran things. Visit as many places as you can and keep an open mind.


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## Martial D (Nov 4, 2018)

Choistic said:


> (Originally Posted on Reddit)
> I need help turning my Dojang around. (LONG POST) • r/martialarts
> 
> To whoever is reading this,
> ...



You can't fix it.  Get a new dojang


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2018)

Choistic said:


> Ever since my master left, I have been trying to continue the example set by him. I purchase boards to test my hand and foot techniques, try to apply poomsae on my own time, and even get friends from other studios to train together so we can analyze each other's poomsae and self defense skills. But I don't know if that will be enough to keep my skills sharp.
> 
> I am afraid that my dojang is turning into a Mcdojang.
> 
> Please give me any tips what I can do to turn my dojang around. The last thing I want to do is go to other studio.


To train as you know is correct is more than enough to keep your skills sharp.  There is training at school and training that you do on your own.  You can't control the direction that your school is going in, but you can control how you train when you are not in school. 

I went through a similar situation and even after all of my contributions and efforts to keep the school on a similar path that you speak of, I was eventually kicked out for "focusing too much on fighting."  Long story short.  I stayed truth to my path of what I believed what martial arts should be and who I should be as a person.  Later on I found out that I was correct about my belief in the values of the system.  I don't have a school anymore.  I still train, and the head of the organization doesn't think ill about me or how I see martial arts.

From what martial arts has been for most of my life, I've come to accept that sometimes it's going to be lonely and that it's really about me and my development.  If I stay true to a good value system and train well, then people will acknowledge that.  While it's nice to be acknowledge or "save a school"  it's more important to train what you know is correct training and stay true to that, knowing that you will benefit from it.  Eventually your dedication will become the standards by which others will train.  Other's may not see it, but you will and you will be happy that you played a quiet but important role in "helping your system."  As for the school,  no matter how good your are,  there's no saving it as you aren't the one calling the shots.  Train hard become a certified instructor so you can open up your own school, and from there you can keep your teachers training a part of your school.


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## Gnarlie (Nov 4, 2018)

Talk to your instructors and the chief instructor. Respectfully. They will be interested what their membership's wishes are, and the fact that you are passionate about what you do will never be bad news to any instructor. 

I tend to look for this kind of attitude - it's the sign of a future instructor. I tend to train people differently when they are passionate and serious about what they are learning.

Modern expectations and lifestyles have led to what I would call a 'layering' within TKD - there are people who view it as a hobby, and people who view it as more than that, to the point of it being a lifestyle. A hobbyist will never be as good as a lifer of the equivalent grade. Grade is not absolute, and each grade has a huge bandwidth from acceptable minimum to overqualification. 

Skills are absolute. You either can or you can't. Be a lifer, and don't compare yourself to others, especially hobbyists. Hold yourself to a higher standard, and hold your future students too it too. The problem only exists if you worry about what other people are doing. Get your own house in order and keep it that way. You will find that other lifers will be drawn to you, and instructors will treat you differently. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2018)

Buka said:


> Welcome to martial Talk, Choistic.
> 
> Take a deep breath, relax. It's eventually going to be just fine.
> 
> First - why is going to another dojo so awful to you? I ask this honestly.


This - both the advice and the question.

I can understand not wanting to change schools. Can you help me understand why that is the worst option to you?


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## drop bear (Nov 4, 2018)

Do MMA.


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## dvcochran (Nov 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Do MMA.


Couldn't resist could you!


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## drop bear (Nov 4, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Couldn't resist could you!



Nope.


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## _Simon_ (Nov 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Do MMA.


Hahaha.. time-honoured classic, its versatility has no bounds


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## Choistic (Nov 5, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Leave....because simply your not an instructor based on what you've said here. It's not /your/ school you don't run it you can't force them to do anything. If you don't like it then leave it's as simple as that. Also the fact the instructors make mistakes isn't a big deal...they're human do you really think the old guy never made w single mistake? Everyone has their own style. Frankly I think you can get a bit to ott with things like foot positioning. If you don't like their style they're not making you stay


Thanks for your reply Headhunter.
That is true. I can leave if I want. It is just that the place has given me a chance to change my life around. I know that people might say it is "Bullshido" to say that staying because of "dojang loyalty", but I can't really bring myself to do it.


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## Choistic (Nov 5, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Welcome to the forum. Hopefully you will get some helpful advise. I am a long time student at a WT(F)/Kukkiwon school and will say if my school was only that I would have left a long time ago. Take that for what it is worth. Who is your GM now? The way you say it, you school is being ran black belt by committee. Somebody has to be the leader.
> If you have the option to go workout elsewhere that sounds like your best course. You said you workout with people from other dojangs, why don't you go to several classes at the other schools and really measure the differences?
> Being under a dark cloud with no apparent hope is the wrong place to be. You are not in a position rank-wise to facilitate large scale changes in your dojang. If you believe otherwise, make it happen.
> It sounds like you are at a pretty large school. So there are many pieces you may not understand. I would recommend you reflect and make sure you are not just very sad that your original GM left and refusing to let anyone else take his place in your mind. Keep in touch and let us know how it is going.



Thank you dvcochran.
My grandmaster has not changed. The current teacher that I train under is a returning teacher who "substituted" when my master who left couldn't make it. But in reality I am mostly taught by the "black belt leaders." These are students who had already received their black belts and "volunteer" their time to teach at the dojang. As I already had said, most of the leaders (except for the ones who studied under my last master, there are only few left) would sometimes forget the forms, don't know how to execute proper techniques, and don't know the applications of those techniques. They're nice people, but I would rather have someone who is strict and effective.
Yes. The dojang is run by a committee of black belts. Their leader is the original founder of the dojang, the Grandmaster.
Visiting other dojangs seems like a great idea! I never really thought about it. I'll make sure to do that!


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## Choistic (Nov 5, 2018)

Buka said:


> Welcome to martial Talk, Choistic.
> 
> Take a deep breath, relax. It's eventually going to be just fine.
> 
> First - why is going to another dojo so awful to you? I ask this honestly.



Thank you so much for answering Buka.
That dojang was the place that helped me to recover after my suicide attempt. It is like a second home to me.


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## Choistic (Nov 5, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> If you’re not happy with the changes that have been made, find a new school. MA has this fantasy loyalty mystique. Truth is a lot of it is BS. If you’re buying into the loyalty aspect, and loyalty is a good thing, who are you loyal to? The person you were supposed to be loyal to (other than yourself) has left. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have.
> 
> I’m assuming you like the people there. That’s all fine and good. I get that it makes the decision harder, but from what you’ve written, you’re not happy even though you like the people around you.
> 
> ...


Thank you JR 137.

I guess I haven't thought about who I was loyal to. Thank you for that input.
Yes it is true. I like the people there, but I am not happy.
I can understand your point. I do think that it would be quite annoying if a single student asked to do things like how I used to do. The studio is a business after all.
I guess that I am blinded by what how the past was like. Truth be told, I got emotionally attached to the dojang. I just wanted it to be how it was. That idea just only continued to be more persistent after I found out what Mcdojangs/mcdojos are.


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## Headhunter (Nov 5, 2018)

Choistic said:


> Thanks for your reply Headhunter.
> That is true. I can leave if I want. It is just that the place has given me a chance to change my life around. I know that people might say it is "Bullshido" to say that staying because of "dojang loyalty", but I can't really bring myself to do it.


Well then basically you're going to have to suck it up and get on with it. Because it's not your place to change anything. The instructor has the right to teach whatever he wants


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## Choistic (Nov 5, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> To train as you know is correct is more than enough to keep your skills sharp.  There is training at school and training that you do on your own.  You can't control the direction that your school is going in, but you can control how you train when you are not in school.
> 
> I went through a similar situation and even after all of my contributions and efforts to keep the school on a similar path that you speak of, I was eventually kicked out for "focusing too much on fighting."  Long story short.  I stayed truth to my path of what I believed what martial arts should be and who I should be as a person.  Later on I found out that I was correct about my belief in the values of the system.  I don't have a school anymore.  I still train, and the head of the organization doesn't think ill about me or how I see martial arts.
> 
> From what martial arts has been for most of my life, I've come to accept that sometimes it's going to be lonely and that it's really about me and my development.  If I stay true to a good value system and train well, then people will acknowledge that.  While it's nice to be acknowledge or "save a school"  it's more important to train what you know is correct training and stay true to that, knowing that you will benefit from it.  Eventually your dedication will become the standards by which others will train.  Other's may not see it, but you will and you will be happy that you played a quiet but important role in "helping your system."  As for the school,  no matter how good your are,  there's no saving it as you aren't the one calling the shots.  Train hard become a certified instructor so you can open up your own school, and from there you can keep your teachers training a part of your school.



Thank you so much for telling me about your story JowGaWolf.
How could you be kicked out for "focusing too much on fighting?"
And thank you so much for giving that motivation. I promise I will train hard to be Kukkiwon certified.


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## Choistic (Nov 5, 2018)

Gnarlie said:


> Talk to your instructors and the chief instructor. Respectfully. They will be interested what their membership's wishes are, and the fact that you are passionate about what you do will never be bad news to any instructor.
> 
> I tend to look for this kind of attitude - it's the sign of a future instructor. I tend to train people differently when they are passionate and serious about what they are learning.
> 
> ...


Do you think it would be okay if I asked them to test me like how I used to test?


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## Choistic (Nov 5, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Do MMA.


I have thought about it. Is a UFC gym the only way to learn it?


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 5, 2018)

Choistic said:


> They're nice people, but I would rather have someone who is strict and effective



There's only one person who needs to be "strict and effective" and that is you. Don't think your forms are up to your standards? Fine. Don't test. Practice more.
The idea that this needs to be enforced by anyone other than you is just plain silly.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 5, 2018)

Choistic said:


> Do you think it would be okay if I asked them to test me like how I used to test?



No. The testing standards are theirs. If you don't think you're ready to test by YOUR standards, then don't test.


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## Gnarlie (Nov 5, 2018)

Choistic said:


> Do you think it would be okay if I asked them to test me like how I used to test?


Why? You are responsible for your own standard. Why do you need external affirmation? 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## _Simon_ (Nov 5, 2018)

Choistic said:


> Thank you so much for answering Buka.
> That dojang was the place that helped me to recover after my suicide attempt. It is like a second home to me.



There's been some great responses so far. Can understand how hard it may be... I've had to leave my old dojo (not for the same reason, but due to feeling I need to move on from this style), and to be honest it was heartbreaking... Alot more emotional than I thought it'd be! But I knew in my heart it was the right decision. It was like leaving close family. But as hard as it was, I had to do it.

So you'll definitely have alot of emotional stuff to process if you decide to move on... it'll be a matter of allowing yourself to feel whatever it is you're feeling. Very deep stuff may surface, but remind yourself of just how far you've come, how much strength you've realised within yourself, and accepting any grief that comes up and allow yourself to feel and process that. Some people may see that a dojang or style change is no big deal, but when you spend that many hours in a place, and you've grown, evolved, and learned so much about yourself here (now being such a different person to when you started), built deep connection and friendship and shared many tough, enduring experiences with these people, it's not easy!

But like it was said earlier you can try another dojang in the same style if it's available. Otherwise a change of scenery may be for the best


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2018)

Choistic said:


> Thanks for your reply Headhunter.
> That is true. I can leave if I want. It is just that the place has given me a chance to change my life around. I know that people might say it is "Bullshido" to say that staying because of "dojang loyalty", but I can't really bring myself to do it.


I would argue most of the loyalty you owe is to the person who helped you (the master who has left) and to the training you benefited from (which doesn't seem to exist at that dojang now). If that dojang doesn't meet your needs now, you can move on without disrespecting or being disloyal in any way. Nearly everyone here has moved on at least once from a dojo/dojang/gym they felt loyal to, for any number of reasons. Many of us still have strong ties to those places and the people still there, though we've moved on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2018)

Choistic said:


> I have thought about it. Is a UFC gym the only way to learn it?


You don't need a UFC-branded gym. There are plenty of good places that teach MMA-related material. It's unlikely any will be as traditional as you are used to - and you seem to enjoy that level tradition and formality - so keep that in mind. But one thing you should be able to count on at a gym that prepares MMA fighters (even if you don't compete): they will call you on your crap. And that's really what you seem to have liked about the testing you went through - you had to do it really well, or they'd point out the errors for you. MMA folks will have a different way about that (most don't do ranks, so no formal testing), but they'll do it, nonetheless.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> There's only one person who needs to be "strict and effective" and that is you. Don't think your forms are up to your standards? Fine. Don't test. Practice more.
> The idea that this needs to be enforced by anyone other than you is just plain silly.


Some folks benefit (both skill-wise and personally) from the added external structure. For some folks, it can be somewhat therapeutic.


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## mrt2 (Nov 5, 2018)

Gnarlie said:


> Talk to your instructors and the chief instructor. Respectfully. They will be interested what their membership's wishes are, and the fact that you are passionate about what you do will never be bad news to any instructor.
> 
> I tend to look for this kind of attitude - it's the sign of a future instructor. I tend to train people differently when they are passionate and serious about what they are learning.
> 
> ...


That is an interesting point.  Though we tend to idealize the values of the old school, I would wager this tension between maintaining high standards and teaching Martial Arts for profit likely predates TKD itself.  Think about it.  It is sort of arbitrary that we have a belt system were promotion goes from 10th gup, or beginner up to 1st Dan and beyond.  It stands to reason that those ranks will mean different things to different people.


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## mrt2 (Nov 5, 2018)

Choistic said:


> (Originally Posted on Reddit)
> I need help turning my Dojang around. (LONG POST) • r/martialarts
> 
> 
> ...


I just have a few questions about how things used to be.  Some of these things make sense.  Others, maybe not so much, at least if you are hoping to run a commercially viable TKD school. 

1.  The possibility of failing belt tests. - I am right with you on this.  But I don't think failure should be common or expected, but for sure, if you mess up a form, or fail to break a board, or mess up on curicullum, maybe you should fail.  My view is, if more than 10% of those testing are failing, something is wrong.  Students should be prepared to test, and if they are not, they should not be testing.

2. Strict grading on forms - Yes, for sure.  Some Martial Arts don't do forms, but if you do forms, they should be done correctly.   I, too, hate when I see egregious mistakes made in forms.  That said, there is sloppy, and there is bad enough to fail.  Hopefully, you weed out the really bad mistakes in class.

3. Sparring - Proficiency makes sense, but really?  If your testers spar against each other, you are saying that half the testing group has to fail every time, and that makes no sense. What if you run into strong fighters over 2 or more testing cycles?     

4. Board breaking.  With you there, if board breaking is something you do at tests..  If you do board breaking, you should be able to break the board to pass.  My school does board breaking as part of the test, so that is fine.  That said, I guess I am agnostic on this point.  I wouldn't care if my school dropped the board breaking and replaced it with something else.  But it isn't a big deal either, since I  have no problem generating the power to break a 1" board.

5. An ability to speak Korean.  Really?  Unless you plan to live in Korea or work with Korean speakers, this strikes me as odd.  Not that there is anything wrong with learning a foreign language, but seriously, that is appealing to maybe 1 in 10,000 people who are not Korean speakers to walk into a TKD dojang.


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## Tez3 (Nov 5, 2018)

Choistic said:


> I have thought about it. Is a UFC gym the only way to learn it?




MMA gyms teach MMA, there's lots of them. Some gyms have been teaching MMA for a very long time. 'UFC' gyms are a relatively new thing.


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## mrt2 (Nov 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You don't need a UFC-branded gym. There are plenty of good places that teach MMA-related material. It's unlikely any will be as traditional as you are used to - and you seem to enjoy that level tradition and formality - so keep that in mind. But one thing you should be able to count on at a gym that prepares MMA fighters (even if you don't compete): they will call you on your crap. And that's really what you seem to have liked about the testing you went through - you had to do it really well, or they'd point out the errors for you. MMA folks will have a different way about that (most don't do ranks, so no formal testing), but they'll do it, nonetheless.


Pretty sure they won't emphasize speaking Korean at MMA gyms.


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## WaterGal (Nov 5, 2018)

As a student, you can't change the school you attend. It's not your place to make that change. You can talk to the instructors or school owner and let them know that you have some concerns with their new methods and are thinking about leaving because of them. But it's up to them whether or not to make those changes.


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## drop bear (Nov 5, 2018)

Choistic said:


> I have thought about it. Is a UFC gym the only way to learn it?



No.
XFC Narre Warren - Mixed Martial Arts (MMA), Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (BJJ), Muay Thai / Kickboxing, Boxing


You would need a decent grappling instructor. But there are a few TKDers moving in to MMA.

As soon as your training is results based. (Poor martial arts resulting in getting bashed and embarrassed in front of your friends and family)

Your training motivation improves.


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## drop bear (Nov 5, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> There's only one person who needs to be "strict and effective" and that is you. Don't think your forms are up to your standards? Fine. Don't test. Practice more.
> The idea that this needs to be enforced by anyone other than you is just plain silly.



It takes a village.


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## drop bear (Nov 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You don't need a UFC-branded gym. There are plenty of good places that teach MMA-related material. It's unlikely any will be as traditional as you are used to - and you seem to enjoy that level tradition and formality - so keep that in mind. But one thing you should be able to count on at a gym that prepares MMA fighters (even if you don't compete): they will call you on your crap. And that's really what you seem to have liked about the testing you went through - you had to do it really well, or they'd point out the errors for you. MMA folks will have a different way about that (most don't do ranks, so no formal testing), but they'll do it, nonetheless.



Or is it strictness discipline and a common goal?

I mean I am not up at 6am this morning to do rounds because  I like missing sleep ins.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Or is it strictness discipline and a common goal?
> 
> I mean I am not up at 6am this morning to do rounds because  I like missing sleep ins.


Yeah, I think that's another way to express it. I think that common goal is part of what builds the sense of community I've seen in MMA gyms I've visited. I think the common goal is better-defined (and, perhaps, more common?) on average in MMA gyms.


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## JR 137 (Nov 5, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> MMA gyms teach MMA, there's lots of them. Some gyms have been teaching MMA for a very long time. 'UFC' gyms are a relatively new thing.


UFC Gym is a chain gym here in the US. It used to be called LA Boxing. I haven’t been in one since the change/buyout/whatever happened, and the one near me closed. It used to be big on group fitness like cardio kickboxing. There are a lot of hanging Muay Thai heavy bags, trainers do individual/private lessons with a good amount of pad work, stuff like that. They had a boxing ring and would have some matches.

I went into my local one before I joined my current dojo. A trainer took me through a private workout hitting focus mitts and the heavy bag. He had competed in Muay Thai at some level. Seemed like a nice and genuine guy. The price was a bit higher than even the commercial dojos though. Multi-year contracts, down payments, etc. I could see someone really getting a lot out of it and enjoying it, but it wasn’t my cup of tea. Especially for the price. I’d have joined as a supplement to my training if the price was right though. A perfect world would’ve been my dojo as a separate room inside their facility, giving access to both for an affordable price.

I’m pretty sure they closed here due to price. There are several former pro boxers in the area doing essentially the same thing for around half (or less) than what they were charging.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 6, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Some folks benefit (both skill-wise and personally) from the added external structure. For some folks, it can be somewhat therapeutic.



One of the 5 tenets of Taekwondo is Self Discipline. Not discipline imposed from without.


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## Buka (Nov 6, 2018)

Choistic said:


> Thank you so much for answering Buka.
> That dojang was the place that helped me to recover after my suicide attempt. It is like a second home to me.



As it should be. 

But perhaps what helped you was martial Arts itself. Many of us here have walked in your shoes. If you believe that this Martial thing might be a long time pursuit, you should think about what a vast world it is out there. A lot of it right at your very fingertips.

What you might want to do is take a couple of weeks off and visit every place in easy driving distance and spend a couple of nights watching in each and every dojo. Maybe you'll realize you are already in the best place for you, maybe you'll be intrigued by something, you'll definitely see things you haven't seen before, which is always a good thing.  What ever the case, it's good experience. And, brother, it's fun.

Just food for thought.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 6, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> One of the 5 tenets of Taekwondo is Self Discipline. Not discipline imposed from without.


And that's good. Some folks still benefit from external structure. I think that structure is one of the reasons some folks prefer the formality and etiquette of traditional arts. Adhering to rules - by choice - is one way to develop self-discipline. Remember that it's not like the military. This student could have left at any time if they chose - choosing to stay and follow those stricter rules is an exercise of discipline.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 6, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> And that's good. Some folks still benefit from external structure. I think that structure is one of the reasons some folks prefer the formality and etiquette of traditional arts. Adhering to rules - by choice - is one way to develop self-discipline. Remember that it's not like the military. This student could have left at any time if they chose - choosing to stay and follow those stricter rules is an exercise of discipline.



He doesn't want to adhere to the rules. He wants his own rules that are different and (in his eyes) stricter. That can only come from himself.


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## dvcochran (Nov 7, 2018)

Choistic said:


> Do you think it would be okay if I asked them to test me like how I used to test?


What rank will your next test be? Can you detail the old and new curriculum so we can better understand? I get the feeling that at least some of you concerns are subjective and emotional. If we can see the physical differences it will help give informed advise.


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## Bruce7 (Nov 28, 2018)

Choistic said:


> (Originally Posted on Reddit)
> I need help turning my Dojang around. (LONG POST) • r/martialarts
> 
> To whoever is reading this,
> ...



Thank you for bringing up this excellent question.It is very hard to leave your dojang, but the advice given is correct. It is not up to you to fix the dojang.
You need to find a new master. It does not matter what Martial Art you learn so long as the master is dedicated to excellence of his Art. I thought there was nothing else but Jack Hwangs Taekwondo. I had to quit his school when I join the navy.While station in Guam I found a Kung Fu long fist master who open my eyes to new things. You are not losing your art, your situation has given you the chance to develop into a better Martial Arts. it may not be easy, but you need to find a new master.


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## skribs (Dec 13, 2018)

Choistic said:


> (Originally Posted on Reddit)
> I need help turning my Dojang around. (LONG POST) • r/martialarts
> 
> To whoever is reading this,
> ...



A lot of these are your opinion on what makes for a good class based on the way your master raised you.  Some of the things that seem important to you seem to be elective to me, and some of the ways in which you talk about the test are actually disturbing to me.  For example, while I don't see a problem with teaching the Korean terminology, it seems superfluous to me.  Knowing whether it's a "front kick" or an "ahp chaki" is less important than knowing how to properly use it, for example.

(Don't get me wrong, the way you describe classes now, with most of the curriculum removed or not done correctly, is more concerning.  I think somewhere in the middle is probably best).

One thing I've been thinking of a lot lately is the idea of objective vs. subjective test requirements.  For example, what is written in stone as "it must be exactly like this or you fail", and what is "the students must demonstrate the best of their ability and show improvement."  Another way of looking at it - do you need to perfect the white belt curriculum before moving on to yellow belt, or do you need to have a yellow belt understanding of the white belt curriculum before moving on?

*Poomsae*
You mention Poomsae, and how they must be exact.  The stances must be perfect, toes in the proper place, and everything else in the right spot.  We have some students that this would pretty much be a breeze for, and other students that this would mean they would be stuck at white belt for years.  The first poomsae we teach kids is at the yellow belt, and it's the basic Kibon Il Jang (all front stances, down blocks, and punches, in a simple I-shape).  It takes some of the kids 6-8 months just to get the directions right, let alone any of the details.  And even then they screw it up half the time.

On their purple belt test, quite often a kid will still struggle with the form.  But even though they never even did the basic motions perfect (let alone had the right stances), after they get their purple belt and have to learn more forms, they quickly catch up on how to do this one right.  As a judge and an instructor, I look at the kid who's been making a dozen mistakes in the form every day in class for the last 4 months, and I see him make 3 mistakes in the form during the test, and I give him a passing grade (not an Outstanding grade, but a passing grade).  Because what I see is a kid that has shown a tremendous amount of growth, and I've seen the history of students who did a similar performance on their purple belt test, and then how they continue to grow as a purple belt.

Now, another student that's gotten a good grasp of the form really quick, I will instead look at with a different lens.  These students I will expect they make no mistakes on the gross movements, and I will expect to see some semblance of the proper stance and hand position.

This is what I mean when I talk about subjective test requirements.  I have different standards for what I expect in each student, because I know what each student is capable of, and I want to see them grow.  I can understand having objective requirements (and sometimes wish we had more of them at my school), but I have seen students thrive in this environment.  Once you get up to the black belt level, those students that started off taking 8 months to do Kibon Il Jang will have forms on par with the others.  They catch up over time.

As to making a single mistake and failing?  That seems a bit harsh.  Between Taekwondo and Hapkido, I've taken 23 tests at my school, and I've messed things up on 22 of them.  But I fixed my mistakes and that's how I passed.

*Sparring*
I don't have a problem with non-contact sparring, if it's done right.  It's a nice way to get people into sparring before they've learned how to kick properly (so they don't kick with their toes, kick someone else in the knee, etc).  It's also good for learning timing and reading people.  However, it must eventually grow into contact sparring.  Many students at my school will opt for non-contact sparring if we're dealing with an injury, because the other option is just to sit out entirely.

As to the test requirement to win your sparring match...does this mean that potentially only half of the students move on?  Does this mean if you're not good at sparring, you can't progress?  I'm personally not very good at sparring.  But I have a very good detailed memory of the poomsae, and I have a lot of understanding of the physics behind the art.  At your school, I would have been held back on virtue of my physical skills.  

How exactly did this work in practice?  Because it seems to me a way to just arbitrarily make half the class fail their test automatically.

*Self Defense*
I actually like what you said about your master taking the form and applying self defense from it.  We do self defense at my school, but they are separate from the poomsae we do.  It sucks that you're losing it.

*Board Breaking*
This is where I wish we had more standards at my school, and like that your school did it this way.  My old school was definitely this way.  Sometimes at my school we have the blue belts use a back kick to break their board, other times we have them use a hammerfist (which we use for lower belts as well).  I have not quite figured out how my Master determines whether we will do the back kick or the hammerfist.  But I wish that we would stick to it and get the technique correct, instead of switching to the easier technique.

However, with that said, it does go back to what I said before about objective vs. subjective requirements.  He may be looking at kids that have really struggled with the back kick and not want them to get discouraged in the progress they've made.  And just like I said with the poomsae, even if some of our blue belts don't have that great of a back kick, by the time they get to be black belt it's usually pretty good.

*The Changes*
Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying your school is better off with the changes.  Instructors messing up the forms is bad.  People getting promoted too easily is bad.  I may make it seem like everyone who tests passes at my school, but really the "test" is the time leading up to the actual test, where we check who is ready to test or not.  If someone would fail, we simply don't let them test.  The test itself is more of a formality at that point.

I merely wanted to play Devil's Advocate and point out that just because standards seem lower, doesn't mean the quality of instruction is gone.  It may shift when people gain certain skills, and it may change the atmosphere of the dojang, but even if people are given slack at the lower belts, it doesn't mean they're going to turn out worse.  

Do I wish we were a bit more objective at my school?  Yes.  However, we also have several students that I realize a pure objective approach means they would never move on.  And sometimes it's moving on that pushes you through the barriers that were holding you back before.  Like when our kids move from yellow belt (where we spend maybe 5 minutes a week on their form) to purple belt (where we spend maybe 20 minutes on forms each week), and suddenly they're better at Kibon Il Jang.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> One thing I've been thinking of a lot lately is the idea of objective vs. subjective test requirements. For example, what is written in stone as "it must be exactly like this or you fail", and what is "the students must demonstrate the best of their ability and show improvement." Another way of looking at it - do you need to perfect the white belt curriculum before moving on to yellow belt, or do you need to have a yellow belt understanding of the white belt curriculum before moving on?


A slight swerve (what? on MT??) on this. I've come to the conclusion that the best testing is a bit of each (subjective and objective). I don't think the test is (usually) actually the point. I could test 10 different people entirely differently, and still test for the same things, if the "things" I'm testing for are more conceptual. In my case, it's part conceptual, part technical. I'm training for fighting ability, primarily through the NGA art. So, like most folks, I've set "requirements" for promotion to each rank. But those "requirements" are not there really primarily to test those specific things. If someone for some reason cannot physically do a Jacket Grab classical form - a real physical limitation - then I'll find some other way to test that they're learning the principles needed. That might just mean they have to be a bit better at everything else to make up for that lack. If someone has severe asthma, so they can't reasonably do the sparring required for each rank, I'll find something else they have to do that others do not. The same goes for individual kicks, punches, etc.

Because what I'm really testing for is their understanding of and ability to apply NGA and the rest of the curriculum they've learned. The easiest way for me to do that with consistency is to use the requirements as I've written them. But it's not the only way.

So, getting back to my opening statement. When I review Classical techniques for yellow belt (about a year in), I'm not expecting anything like perfection. I'm expecting correct execution of the primary principles. What I'm looking for changes at each rank (those first 10 Classical techniques will be re-tested each time), and there are objective and subjective components.


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## skribs (Dec 13, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> A slight swerve (what? on MT??) on this. I've come to the conclusion that the best testing is a bit of each (subjective and objective).



I agree completely.  The question isn't so much A or B, but rather where you put the balance?  It sounds like this guy's old master put the needle very far towards objective testing.


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