# Rethinking 9/11



## grumpywolfman (Sep 11, 2013)

Unpatriotic? Conspiracist? 

With more than 2000+ architects and engineers supporting efforts for the public to know the truth, 40% of Americans would like to see a new investigation into the attacks of 9/11. 


[video=youtube_share;A7tSfwkKaUo]http://youtu.be/A7tSfwkKaUo[/video]








*WTC Building #7, a 47-story high-rise not hit by an airplane, exhibited all the characteristics of classic controlled demolition with explosives:*

Rapid onset of collapse
Sounds of explosions
Symmetrical structural failure
Free-fall acceleration through the path of what was greatest resistance
Imploded, collapsing completely, landing almost in its own footprint
Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds
Expert corroboration from the top European controlled demolition professional
Foreknowledge of "collapse" by media, NYPD, FDNY
In the aftermath of WTC7's destruction, strong evidence of demolition using incendiary devices was discovered:

FEMA finds rapid oxidation and intergranular melting on structural steel samples
Several tons of molten metal reported by numerous highly qualified witnesses
Chemical signature of the incendiary thermite found in solidified molten metal, and dust samples
WTC7 exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire:

Slow onset with large visible deformations
Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, to the side most damaged by the fires)
Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel
High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never collapsed





As seen in this revealing photo, the Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all of the characteristics of destruction by explosives:

Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration
Improbable symmetry of debris distribution
Extremely rapid onset of destruction
Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes
Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally
Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking
Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds
1200-foot-diameter debris field: no "pancaked" floors found
Isolated explosive ejections 2040 stories below demolition front
Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame
Several tons of molten metal found under all 3 high-rises
Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples
Evidence of explosives found in dust samples

*The three high-rises exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire:*

Slow onset with large visible deformations
Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, intact, from the point of plane impact, to the side most damaged by the fires)
Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel
High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer-lasting fires have never collapsed


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## Tgace (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh brother....this again?


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## harlan (Sep 11, 2013)

I must have missed the opinion survey phone call...dang.

I say: send big checks to the survivor's kids, build a park and some new real estate, and move on.

Life is for the living, and my taxes are already too high.


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## Big Don (Sep 11, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Oh brother....this again?


you misspelled not this feces again...
19 Muslim men hijacked 4 planes on Tuesday September 11th 2001, they flew two into the towers, one into the Pentagon and one crashed in PA. To pretend the fact that they WERE Muslims is unimportant is silly, that fact was important to the 19 hijacking scumbags.To blame the JOOOS, the Illuminati or the friggin Shriners is just ********** stupid.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 11, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Unpatriotic? Conspiracist? With more than 2000+ architects and engineers supporting efforts for the public to know the truth, 40% of Americans would like to see a new investigation into the attacks of 9/11.



9/11 is Patriot's Day, by the way.  How dare you ask some questions, Patriots don't do that in the New Amerika.


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## Big Don (Sep 11, 2013)

A pretty big percentage of people believe Elvis is alive, that doesn't mean they should be taken seriously.


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## Tgace (Sep 11, 2013)

Brains are falling out....

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## elder999 (Sep 11, 2013)

It pains me to have to address this_*-correct*_ this-yet again, and on this day of all days, but I just can't bear it.



grumpywolfman said:


> Unpatriotic? *WTC Building #7, a 47-story high-rise not hit by an airplane, exhibited all the characteristics of classic controlled demolition with explosives:
> *



No. No, it *didn't.*



grumpywolfman said:


> Rapid onset of collapse



From the very good _Merriam-Webster English Language Technical Manual_:



> to break apart and fall down s*uddenly* : to fall
> to fall or shrink together abruptly and completely *:*  fall into a jumbled or flattened mass through the force of external pressure <a blood vessel that _collapsed_>
> 2
> *:*  to break down completely *:* disintegrate <his case had _collapsed_ in a mass of legal wreckage &#8212; Erle Stanley Gardner>
> ...



So, strike one: English language usage. Collapses are, by definition, *sudden*. 




grumpywolfman said:


> Sounds of explosions



Stand outside a decent structural fire. Know what you'll hear?

_Explosions._ Implosions, too. And things that sound like them when they get hot enough to simply crack, like wood.

TV monitors, windows, refrigerators, microwave ovens, canned food-all explode or implode.





grumpywolfman said:


> Symmetrical structural failure



While a symmetrical structural failure is atypical, it is not unheard of, nor impossible.




grumpywolfman said:


> Free-fall acceleration through the path of what was greatest resistance



OR through the path of what was most fire damaged.




grumpywolfman said:


> Imploded, collapsing completely, landing almost in its own footprint



Again, atypical, but not unheard of.




grumpywolfman said:


> Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds



Dust....ya know.....*dust?* :lfao:




grumpywolfman said:


> Expert corroboration from the top European controlled demolition professional


]

Kinda like asking a painter "Is this paint blue?" only let's ask a demolition professional "Did this building fall?"




grumpywolfman said:


> Foreknowledge of "collapse" by media, NYPD, FDNY



Where?




grumpywolfman said:


> In the aftermath of WTC7's destruction, strong evidence of demolition using incendiary devices was discovered:



No. *No*, there wasn't.




grumpywolfman said:


> FEMA finds rapid oxidation and intergranular melting on structural steel samples



"Rapid oxidation" is called......*fire.* All "melting" in steel is "intergranular."  Structural steel melts at a variety of temperatures, depending upon carbon content, but the highest is about 2900 F, a temperature well below the 3500 F that can be achieved near the ceiling in a fully involved structural fire with ordinary combustibles for fuel (that's arson investigator speak, something I used to do, for a "house fire.") 




grumpywolfman said:


> The numerous highly qualified witnesses



Yeah, there's a PhD. physicist from LANL named Stan Friedman who swears the government is converting alien tech in an underground base beneath Area 51. I've been to Area 51-as in, * in it*-and you know what's there?

_Nothing._ :lfao:




grumpywolfman said:


> Chemical signature of the incendiary thermite found in solidified molten metal, and dust samples



Uhh..."thermite" is composed of iron oxide, aluminum and an ignition source. "Iron oxide" is *rust.* You have a fire, with all the components of thermite present, and voila-instant idiocy. 

I could go on, but the hot-tub is calling.

At long last, man, have you no decency? It's one thing to glurge with pseudo-scientific Biblical babble-that, at least, is entertaining. This is like ripping off a scab, and pouring salt into it, with a nice pungent vinegar of stupidity added to the mix. Rude beyond any extreme.

"Rethinking 9/11" No. Not "thinking" at all.

Good night.


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## elder999 (Sep 11, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> 9/11 is Patriot's Day, by the way.  How dare you ask some questions, Patriots don't do that in the New Amerika.



ANd *this*.

"Patriot's Day" is extremely insulting. Those 340 firemen didn't go into those buildings and die because they were "patriots," or even because they were good Americans. 

They did what they did because they were human beings-just as human beings everywhere always have.

In my house, 9/11 is _"Preparedness Day." _The day we sharpen our knives, clean our guns, inventory our medical supplies, ammo, emergency food and water-so that "never again" means just that.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 12, 2013)

elder999 said:


> ANd *this*.
> 
> "Patriot's Day" is extremely insulting. Those 340 firemen didn't go into those buildings and die because they were "patriots," or even because they were good Americans.
> 
> ...



Sorry to say, Elder, but I didn't make this up.

http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/us/patriot-day

I like the way you spin this day.  Seems like a good way to handle it.

In regards to this whole conspiracy theory, I think I'm just too ignorant to make any decisions about what really happened.  I haven't seen any evidence.  I haven't seen jack squat except for whatever ******** I can dig up on the internet.  I realize this probably applies to most of my posts in this forum.  LOL!

That said, it's an inside job.  Truth out homies.


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## arnisador (Sep 12, 2013)

Sheesh.


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## Cirdan (Sep 12, 2013)

We all know the alien jew robot illuminati party are responsible already. Move on.


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## elder999 (Sep 12, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Sorry to say, Elder, but I didn't make this up.
> 
> http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/us/patriot-day



I know you didn't. It's just silly, is all.

Besides, didn't we already have a Patiot's Day? I thought we did/.  :


> Patriot's Day (or Patriots' Day) commemorates the battles of Lexington and Concord, which were fought near Boston in 1775. Patriot's Day is annually held on the third Monday of April. It should not be confused with Patriot Day, held on September 11 to mark the anniversary of terrorist attacks in the USA in 2001.






Makalakumu said:


> I like the way you spin this day. Seems like a good way to handle it.



Thank _the Unholy, Don Roley for that one.....:lol:_


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## grumpywolfman (Sep 12, 2013)

Side by side comparison of an acknowledged controlled demolition and WTC7:

[video=youtube_share;_x4Jq9FTli8]http://youtu.be/_x4Jq9FTli8[/video]


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## harlan (Sep 12, 2013)

And current news...


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## elder999 (Sep 14, 2013)

At the end of the day, I&#8217;ve said most of this elsewhere. For the record, though-I was six years old, and lived in Manhattan when they started building the World Trade Center-it was, at that time, just a hole in the ground-we moved out of the city when I was 8, and it was completed later, but it was the destination for more than a few school field trips, as well as a few others. I proposed to my kids&#8217; mom at Windows on the World, the restaurant at the top floor of the North Tower. Later, when I worked in the training department at Indian Pt., the World Trade Center was bombed-subsequent to that, because the agency that ran Indian Pt. #3 was a state agency, and because we had an emergency operations center, we wound up assisting the City of New York in setting up their emergency operations center, at #7 WTC. During that process, I met a lot of interesting people-_most of whom died in that building on 9/11_-I&#8217;ve posted about Rick Rescorla before-we met simply because I kept harping about an evacuation procedure, and someone said &#8220;There&#8217;s this guy you should meet; you sound just like him.&#8221; I went to the opera with him once-my usual opera companion was unable to go, I was stuck with an extra ticket for really good seats, and remembered him-a remarkable man, among many very interesting people that I got to meet during that process, most of whom, as I said, are dead-along with two firemen, and a couple of classmates&#8230;&#8230;.so, when I say that this whole &#8220;inside job&#8221; truther story is extremely offensive to me, well, it&#8217;s because it&#8217;s *extremely offensive to me.* 


Why do people do this? As someone whose career (more on that in a moment) has made me privy to more than a few secrets-things I&#8217;d love to post about, but often can offer no more than, &#8220;I have nothing to say about *that*&#8221;- I can tell you that the tendency to want secret knowledge-and to _share_ it-runs deeply in humanity. From sacred geometry, to the Illuminati, the Rothschilds, the Holy Grail and the Knights Templar, UFOs, ancient astronauts and Bigfoot-we all want to believe that we know &#8220;the truth&#8221; and that others would be far less ignorant if only they listened to us. 


The problem is, though, that we often listen to the wrong people-much like those who argue against global warming-people who don&#8217;t know what the hell they&#8217;re talking about. I&#8217;ve posted about my career once or twice, but, for Mr. Grumpywolfman, and anyone who thinks I&#8217;ve made my comments out of ignorance or lack of knowledge, I&#8217;ll reiterate: I hold degrees in religious studies, nuclear and mechanical engineering, a master&#8217;s in nuclear engineering, and a PhD. in applied physics. Additionally, I&#8217;ve been a volunteer firemen, an arson investigator, an EMT, a certified Hazmat technician, and a federally certified bomb tech. My career has taken me from Indian Pt. to Los Alamos National Lab, and all over the world. I also make knives, and have taken several college and post-grad classes in metallurgy. 


I&#8217;ve blown things up, for work. *Lots* of things. I&#8217;ve also puzzled out-as part of my job-ways that people _could_ blow things up-or poison them, etc., etc., etc. If you&#8217;re in law enforcement or emergency medicine, chances are that some of your training material on these subjects was developed by me.


So I don&#8217;t make my comments in some sort of vacuum-they come from years of study and experience, and not in something as narrow as a single field. I&#8217;m damn tired of refuting this crap-others have done so and continued to do so, and the only ignorance is that displayed by comments like these:



grumpywolfman said:


> WTC7 exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire:
> 
> Slow onset with large visible deformations
> Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, to the side most damaged by the fires)
> ...



There were many forces at work besides fire-especially in the case of WTC #7, which suffered severe structural damage from the falling towers:



I mean, Popular Mechanics debunked all of this stuff a long time a go, and thoroughly enough-why is that so hard to accept? I could refute each point made in depth-pointing out where they are completely ignorant and lacking in technical knowledge (melting *is* intergranular) or simply misguided (fire alone did not make any of those buildings fall-gravity, I think, had a lot to do with it...:lol: )

I understand, though, that there are those of you who'd simply rather believe that the Bildeberg/Illuminati/Rothschild/One World Order conspiracy was responsible for engineering the complex process that is a controlled demolition-in a fully occupied building that was under increasaed 24 hr. surveillance after the 1993 bombing. They did this by building the charges into the original construction, over 40 years ago, knowing there was a time that those buildings would come to symbolize for our Middle Eastern enemies, all they would come to hate about us, forty years later. 

At the end of the day, there _was _a conspiracy-that of 19 men who hijacked planes and flew them into the twin towers and the Pentagon. Period. Full stop.


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## aedrasteia (Sep 14, 2013)

elder999 said:


> Why do people do this? As someone whose career (more on that in a moment) has made me privy to more than a few secrets-things Id love to post about, but often can offer no more than, I have nothing to say about *that*- I can tell you that the tendency to want secret knowledge-and to _share_ it-runs deeply in humanity. From sacred geometry, to the Illuminati, the Rothschilds, the Holy Grail and the Knights Templar, UFOs, ancient astronauts and Bigfoot-we all want to believe that we know the truth and that others would be far less ignorant if only they listened to us.




This.  thank you Elder.  

This is the tendency I watch for in others and in myself.
We all need some degree of reassurance (and comfort) in order to live every day. 
And when that need is enormous and no source for its fullfilment is present, so many many people will
invent, accomodate, give allegiance to an explanation/theory which serves that (hidden) need.
The most coherent, truthful explanation may be factually accurate, but it does not
and cannot speak to emotional need.  And to admit that emotional need, in this world, is to face the
ridicule that is unendurable. 

What people find shameful is simply to be in need, to be vulnerable. That is unacceptable
in this belligerent, combative, insanely autonomous, mechanistic, toxic society.   Not the explanations.
No matter what they are.

so sorry for the loss of those people you knew.
with respect,


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## grumpywolfman (Sep 14, 2013)

The late Dr. Robert Bowman (Lt. Col.) who recently passed away while battling cancer. Dr. Robert Bowman was one of the first prominent voices to take a stand for 9/11 Truth. Dr. Bowman earned his PhD in aeronautics and nuclear engineering at Caltech. He retired as a lieutenant colonel after 22 years in the Air Force, which included 101 missions as a fighter pilot in Vietnam. While he is best known for his role as Director of Advanced Space Programs for the Air Force during the Ford and Carter Administrations, he was also a leading critic of the &#8220;Star Wars&#8221; direction of the program during the Reagan Administration.

Dr. Bowman was also one of the early signers of the AE911Truth petition and was one of 43 experts interviewed in Experts Speak Out, stating, "When I saw the Twin Towers fall down, I knew this could not happen. Those airplanes and those fires could not cause the buildings to come down the way they did.&#8221;

[video=youtube_share;x_4X8OVL5vo]http://youtu.be/x_4X8OVL5vo[/video]

*More than 2,000 architects and engineers have now signed the AE911 Truth petition to Congress calling for a new, independent investigation into the World Trade Center attacks on 9/11.*


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## elder999 (Sep 14, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Dr. Bowman was also one of the early signers of the AE911Truth petition and was one of 43 experts interviewed in Experts Speak Out, stating, "When I saw the Twin Towers fall down, I knew this could not happen. Those airplanes and those fires could not cause the buildings to come down the way they did.



And a perfect example of those "wrong people" to listen to, as he is neither a structural engineer, nor an expert on demolition. 

Those buildings were special-they were made to come down the way they did. That facade was structural-more like an exoskeleton-and the collapse of the buildings was inevitable with the right sorts of stress-while Minoru Yamasaki anticipated plane crashes in his design, he did not account for larger, faster aircraft like those used-nor did he design for the idea of their being deliberately flown into the building.

I mean-I've got youtube video as well:


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## grumpywolfman (Sep 14, 2013)

elder999 said:


> And a perfect example of those "wrong people" to listen to, as he is neither a structural engineer, nor an expert on demolition.
> 
> Those buildings were special-they were made to come down the way they did. That facade was structural-more like an exoskeleton-and the collapse of the buildings was inevitable with the right sorts of stress-while Minoru Yamasaki anticipated plane crashes in his design, he did not account for larger, faster aircraft like those used-nor did he design for the idea of their being deliberately flown into the building.
> 
> I mean-I've got youtube video as well:



Here is a direct link to the people who have signed the petition. Please feel free to contact one of the several structural engineers listed ~ *PETITION*


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## arnisador (Sep 14, 2013)

elder999 said:


> And a perfect example of those "wrong people" to listen to, as he is neither a structural engineer, nor an expert on demolition.



I work with a Ph.D. mechanical engineer and former AF officer who doesn't believe in evolution or a 4 billion year old earth.


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## Big Don (Sep 14, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Here is a direct link to the people who have signed the petition. Please feel free to contact one of the several structural engineers listed ~ *PETITION*



Why would anyone want to contact nutjobs?


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## elder999 (Sep 14, 2013)

arnisador said:


> I work with a Ph.D. mechanical engineer and former AF officer who doesn't believe in evolution or a 4 billion year old earth.



Yeah, there was one of those at the lab.......Dr. Baumgartner was probably an altogether brilliant guy, except when it came to talking about teaching evolution in schools, and things he knew nothing about, like geology....:lfao:


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## crushing (Sep 14, 2013)

When I first saw this thread titled *Rethinking 9-11*, I thought it might be a discussion and analysis of why the US was attacked and that perhaps that it perhaps wasn't because of the claims by politicians and their friends in the media that they attacked us because we imbibe some alcohol and have swimsuit competitions.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 14, 2013)

elder999 said:


> At the end of the day...



You've seen about as much evidence as anyone else has here. Your opinion is still based on your bias, which you described above, and you don't really know what happened either.

Period. Full stop.

That said, I think millions of people around the world owe their lives to Truthers. Governments, including the US, have used false flag operations to start wars and kill people for thousands of years and now that term is in the public lexicon. Now that word is common knowledge and enough people have looked into this to understand it's historical significance. So many in fact, that the NYT can print an Op Ed from Vladimir Putin where he describes how the rebels gassed the Syrians and everyone knows it's a false flag. It's so common that Patrick Buchanan and Rush Limbaugh use it to describe what's going on in Syria. False flag, Qui bono, left right paradigm, etc.

The other thing that the Truthers have done is that they have unearthed the history of Al Qaeda. Everyone knows these guys were created and funded to fight the soviets in Afghanistan. Everyone knows that these groups are still being run right now by the CIA in Syria, Egypt, Libya, etc. people are making the connection right now that everything that the government claims about Al Qaeda is a lie. It will be interesting to see how this turns out. 

Anyway, Obama said recently in regards to Syria, that it was unfortunate that people had access to certain information and certain opinions. He's talking about Truthers...and in this climate, with so many lies and so many secrets, anyone who is concerned is eventually going to be a Truther.


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## elder999 (Sep 14, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> You've seen about as much evidence as anyone else has here. Your opinion is still based on your bias, which you described above, and you don't really know what happened either.
> 
> Period. Full stop..



Nah. 

I *know* planes flew into those buildings.

I *know* that they fell.

Knowing what goes into a "controlled demolition," and, having watched film-some of which I'd wager no one else here has seen-over, and over, and over again, John, I know one more thing:

This was *not* a controlled demolition.

Want to argue about the complicity of our government, or how the Bush administration ignored 18 months of warnings, chatter and various red flags? I'm all over that. The minute you start talking about the entirely unfeasible and unwieldly proposition that is a controlled demolition of all three buildings, and, as far as I'm concerned, you've just bought proven that:




 (and, don't get me wrong-there's a way that it could have been done that way, but there'd be some stories of what had taken place beforehand among the 52,000 odd people who escaped, and there isn't one hint that those activities taking place)


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## jks9199 (Sep 14, 2013)

I posted this sometime ago.  I guess it's time to repost:


jks9199 said:


> The thing about 9/11 is that we want a better  explanation than a group of "3rd World terrorists" pulled one over on  the "mightiest nation on the planet."  We want a "truth" that reinforces  our view that the US is the strongest, best nation on the planet, and  has no need to fear anyone else.  The only people strong enough to take  us down are "evil us."
> 
> Sorry.  The truth is that Al Queda and Osama Bin Laden aren't "3rd World  Terrorists."  They're just plain terrorists, educated in more than few  cases by our own military, intellegence and colleges, trained and  hardened by decades of war.  They think long term, and they plan  meticulously.  9/11 wasn't the result of a few weeks of planning, or a  "hey, let's try this."  I'd have to look up -- but some of the  perpetrators had been in the US for years.  They had studied and  planned, working around our vulnerabilities.  They exploited our  ignorance, our complacency, and our reactions to prior hijackings.
> 
> ...


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## grumpywolfman (Sep 14, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Brains are falling out....
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



Try sitting down.


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## grumpywolfman (Sep 14, 2013)

[video=youtube_share;hZEvA8BCoBw]http://youtu.be/hZEvA8BCoBw[/video]


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## punisher73 (Sep 15, 2013)

Come on now. We see two planes hit the towers. Yet, the same "truthers" say that there were no planes that it was a missle or a drone. 

http://www.theguardian.com/science/...ec/13/moon-landings-faked-science-confessions

Interesting read about how you can find "scientists" who still claim that the moon landing was faked and how the programs never give counter points to their argument and give it weight as if it is true even though actual experts in the field repeatedly debunk it.

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that our government isn't capable of shady things, but in this case the simplest explanation is the right explanation.  Two planes crashing into the buildings at a high speed caused it to collapse under it's own weight.


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## grumpywolfman (Sep 15, 2013)

*Punisher73*,

I would like to hear your explanation of this BBC news report telling that the Salomon Brothers building (WTC 7) has collapsed, while its still standing in the background behind the reporter as she is *reporting live* that it had already collapsed. While its being reported somebody realizes the mistake, and cuts the video during the report. 

[video=youtube_share;C7SwOT29gbc]http://youtu.be/C7SwOT29gbc[/video]


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## Sukerkin (Sep 15, 2013)

Can I just register my approval of that Grauniad article? :lol:. 

{Note: the deliberate misspelling of the Guardians name is a joke referencing the fact that at one time their proof reading was less than stellar }.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 15, 2013)

To the brave Repper who asked the question "WTF are you talking about?" but hadn't the courtesy to say who they were, making it impossible to answer their polite enquiry, I was talking about the Guardian article linked in post#30 ... as I said, most entertaining. 

No need to get all secretly shirty about it.


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## elder999 (Sep 15, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> *Punisher73*, I would like to hear your explanation of this BBC news report telling that the Salomon Brothers building (WTC 7) has collapsed, while its still standing in the background behind the reporter as she is *reporting live* that it had already collapsed. While its being reported somebody realizes the mistake, and cuts the video during the report. [video=youtube_share;C7SwOT29gbc]http://youtu.be/C7SwOT29gbc[/video]


 
	THe aforementioned emergency operations center that I was involved in planning back in 1993/94, finally-to much ridicule- opened in 1999, on the 23rd floor of WTC#7. It was occupied during the attack and fully staffed 0during the tower's collapse in the morning, and remained so during rescue efforts until about 1000, when it was evacuated. It was evacuated due to its _anticipated_ collapse, and this is what the reporter is speaking about-its _anticipated_ collapse.

	Really-all of this has been thoroughly debunked, and I'm sick of doing your homework for you. Run along.


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## Tgace (Sep 15, 2013)

People who think this was controlled demo need to step away from the Hollywood for a while. Y'all know squat about what preparing a building for demo would entail...

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## elder999 (Sep 15, 2013)

Tgace said:


> People who think this was controlled demo need to step away from the Hollywood for a while. Y'all know squat about what preparing a building for demo would entail...
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



And even less about what that would entail for three buildings that were nearly fully occupied-not that it couldn't be done, but what it would have taken would amount to years, and too many people telling the story.....


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## Tgace (Sep 15, 2013)

elder999 said:


> And even less about what that would entail for three buildings that were nearly fully occupied-not that it couldn't be done, but what it would have taken would amount to years, and too many people telling the story.....



It would have taken at least a year or more to prep all those buildings openly....in secret? Hell..decades.






Not to mention all the HUGE and LOUD explosions you would have heard as the charges went off....or all of the debris the prep would have left behind. Of all the wingnut theories out there controlled demo is the one I have the least open mind about.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Big Don (Sep 15, 2013)

punisher73 said:


> I don't think anyone is trying to argue that our government isn't capable of shady things, but in this case the simplest explanation is the right explanation.  Two planes crashing into the buildings at a high speed caused it to collapse under it's own weight.



Each plane was carrying nearly a full load of fuel.


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## grumpywolfman (Sep 15, 2013)

Tgace said:


> People who think this was controlled demo need to step away from the Hollywood for a while. Y'all know squat about what preparing a building for demo would entail...
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



You mean guys like Danny Jowenko who had over 30 years in building demolition experience?


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## arnisador (Sep 15, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> You mean guys like Danny Jowenko who had over 30 years in building demolition experience?



If expertise matters--doesn't it sway you that the overwhelming majority of experts think things happened just as the mainstream version has it?


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## Tgace (Sep 15, 2013)

Jowenko said he didn't think WTC 1+2 were demo but 7 was....

Besides the fact that many of his peers thought he was nuts...why demo 7 but not all 3?

Of course his car accident death is now all part of the conspiracy.

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## Makalakumu (Sep 15, 2013)

arnisador said:


> If expertise matters--doesn't it sway you that the overwhelming majority of experts think things happened just as the mainstream version has it?



Has there actually been a survey that measured this, or is this your opinion?


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## Big Don (Sep 15, 2013)

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842


> "It is impossible for a building to fall the way it fell without  explosives being involved," stated actress and TV personality Rosie  O'Donnell of ABC's _The View_ in March 2007. "For the first time in history, steel was melted by fire. It is physically impossible," she said.
> 
> ​


 Yep, because that isn't how things are made out of steel. I get it, some where in some third world country there are flat ware mines where spoons and forks and knifes come out of the ground fully formed. Yeah, just outside Detroit there are Car mines...


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## Grenadier (Sep 15, 2013)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Please keep this conversation civil.  If you don't like what someone says on a regular basis, then use the ignore feature that is part of the vBulletin software. 

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator


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## Makalakumu (Sep 15, 2013)

Grenadier said:


> *ATTENTION ALL USERS:*
> 
> Please keep this conversation civil.  If you don't like what someone says on a regular basis, then use the ignore feature that is part of the vBulletin software.
> 
> ...



Yeah, there is no reason to get really upset about this fellas. Use it as a learning experience. For me the lesson is this, no one here has the training or evidence to really know what happened, but still they are damned committed to being the governments thought police. Those are your neighbors, my friends...


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## Big Don (Sep 15, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Yeah, there is no reason to get really upset about this fellas. Use it as a learning experience. For me the lesson is this, no one here has the training or evidence to really know what happened, but still they are damned committed to being the governments thought police. Those are your neighbors, my friends...


Well, we have eyes, we watched the planes fly into the buildings...


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## Makalakumu (Sep 15, 2013)

Big Don said:


> Well, we have eyes, we watched the planes fly into the buildings...



So did I. I was practicing karate out in my yard when my wife called and told me to turn on the TV. I stopped in the middle of Chinto no kata and went upstairs in time to watch the second plane fly into the towers. It was at that point that I was informed that America was under attack and that bad people in Afghanistan and Iraq were responsible. I remember turning off the TV and walking out to the cold Lake Superior beach. I knew that millions of people would die in response to this and I felt despair for the world that my daughter would grow up in. 

9/11 changed my world. All of my dreams went down with the twin towers because the fundamental stability of this country was destroyed that day. This isn't the kind of society I want my children to be born into. Damn history and damn the people who did it...I don't care who.


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## Tgace (Sep 15, 2013)

Big Don said:


> Well, we have eyes, we watched the planes fly into the buildings...



Good thing they both struck exactly at the right spots of the buildings where the demo was scheduled to blow...also good that the collision and fires didn't damage any of the charges/shock cord/command wiring etc. 

I may have never demo'ed a building but I have wired charges and used det/shock cord....planning a coreographed demo with plane collisions? Thinking this was possible from the "complexity aspect" alone is a tad naive if not "loopy".


Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 15, 2013)

The problem with the whole thing is, such fine timed choreography is in fact possible.   
Go to an air show and watch the Blue Angels fly. I've seen stunt shows with explosions, planes, etc.
So the timing isn't a big deal.
The failure in the conspiracy is not IF such a thing is possible, but keeping the whole thing a secret years later. 
You're looking at coordinating with suicidal people, arranging the elimination of the organizers, elimination of the eliminators, elimination of the eliminators of the eliminators....
In over a decade, no one's come forward and said "I was part of the team that planed the demo charges/recruited the hijackers/etc"?

The Bush administration would have had to be masterminds at a level far beyond the Emperor in Star Wars....and while Dick Cheney's pretty much a Sith at heart...Dubya's more like JarJar.


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## Big Don (Sep 15, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> So did I. I was practicing karate out in my yard when my wife called and told me to turn on the TV. I stopped in the middle of Chinto no kata and went upstairs in time to watch the second plane fly into the towers. It was at that point that I was informed that America was under attack and that bad people in Afghanistan and Iraq were responsible.


Well, there is part of your problem, you need your hearing checked... Islamic terrorists were blamed. It was mentioned that they trained in Afghanistan





> I remember turning off the TV and walking out to the cold Lake Superior beach. I knew that millions of people would die in response to this and I felt despair for the world that my daughter would grow up in.
> 
> 9/11 changed my world. All of my dreams went down with the twin towers because the fundamental stability of this country was destroyed that day. This isn't the kind of society I want my children to be born into. Damn history and damn the people who did it...I don't care who.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 16, 2013)

Big Don said:


> Well, there is part of your problem, you need your hearing checked... Islamic terrorists were blamed. It was mentioned that they trained in Afghanistan



And it was mentioned that they were paid by the Saudis and that they were Saudis and that they all had CIA tails and some had handlers and that everyone who was supposed to be knowing about this, knew about this and yet it still happened anyway. They never mentioned that on the news. 

All I knew was that when they started telling us less than an hour after who we needed to hate now, the whole thing was ****ed. I knew it was all some game played by really powerful people and lots of people were going to die. I thought about the children I was helping to bring into this world and really wondered about what kind of future I could provide for them in this kind of environment.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 16, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> In over a decade, no one's come forward and said "I was part of the team that planed the demo charges/recruited the hijackers/etc"



Perhaps we need a speak with dead spell. Lol. 

Who knows. Here is what I think needs to be considered. Bureaucrats run the show in DC. there are some guys who have tens of thousands of people underneath them and they have worked government jobs for decades. Who really knows why kinds of things these people plan. When so much of the budget is secret, can you really say with confidence that you know anything about what the government does?


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## grumpywolfman (Sep 16, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> The Bush administration would have had to be masterminds at a level far beyond the Emperor in Star Wars....



Bohemian Grove?


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## Tgace (Sep 16, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> The problem with the whole thing is, such fine timed choreography is in fact possible.
> Go to an air show and watch the Blue Angels fly. I've seen stunt shows with explosions, planes, etc.
> So the timing isn't a big deal.
> The failure in the conspiracy is not IF such a thing is possible, but keeping the whole thing a secret years later.
> ...



I still have a problem with that Bob...that assumes that the gvt could find 4 highly trained pilots willing to commit suicide vs jihadis trained in the rudimentary skills of piloting. That just adds another layer of operational complexity to the conspiracy. 

If the argument is that these attackers were paid gvt assets and that govt planners knew that planes with a specific quantity of fuel striking the right areas of the buildings would bring them down that's at least a plausible conspiracy from a planning/operations aspect. A years long..if not decades long..wiring of occupied buildings (how much risk in discovery THAT alone presents) involving tons of explosives and rigging, recruitment of Blue Angels level pilots, planes striking buildings and not damaging that demo rigging...and not one error, discovery, whistleblower etc?


I don't buy any of it.


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## elder999 (Sep 16, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Yeah, there is no reason to get really upset about this fellas. Use it as a learning experience. For me the lesson is this, no one here has the training or evidence to really know what happened, but still they are damned committed to being the governments thought police. Those are your neighbors, my friends...



Actually, I've been arguing that I've got the training and experience to recognize that both towers were felled by plane crash and fire damage. In this, I'm not alone-in fact, I belong to the majority of the qualified people in sharing this concensus. Those who don't agree fall into the same realm-as others have pointed out-of otherwise well-educated people who believe in a young earth, and teaching creationism in schools.

*Morons*, in other words.


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## grumpywolfman (Sep 16, 2013)

elder999 said:


> Actually, I've been arguing that I've got the training and experience to recognize that both towers were felled by plane crash and fire damage. In this, I'm not alone-in fact, I belong to the majority of the qualified people in sharing this concensus. Those who don't agree fall into the same realm-as others have pointed out-of otherwise well-educated people who believe in a young earth, and teaching creationism in schools.
> 
> *Morons*, in other words.



Could you please provide links to all of your independent research? Because all that I can seem to find in your posts are insulting rants, put downs, and B.S. cartoons :idunno:


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## Makalakumu (Sep 16, 2013)

elder999 said:


> Actually, I've been arguing that I've got the training and experience to recognize that both towers were felled by plane crash and fire damage. In this, I'm not alone-in fact, I belong to the majority of the qualified people in sharing this concensus. Those who don't agree fall into the same realm-as others have pointed out-of otherwise well-educated people who believe in a young earth, and teaching creationism in schools.
> 
> *Morons*, in other words.



I had a chemistry professor who was a creationist and I used to visit him in his office to chat about it. I'm an atheist and I wanted to know how something like this could happen. Anyway, we had some pretty interesting discussions, it didn't change my mind about creationism, but I think I understand humans a little better.

That said, have ever bothered to talk to Richard Gage or any of the other experts who disagree with your analysis?


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## elder999 (Sep 16, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Could you please provide links to all of your independent research? Because all that I can seem to find in your posts are insulting rants, put downs, and B.S. cartoons :idunno:



*No.* 

This, of course, speaks to the entire problem.

I am, among all other things, a sailor. Were we in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, using proven methods of celestial navigation, I could accurately determine our position within 1.5 miles-I have done as much before, and will again; I have no "independent research" that supports my methodology or experience, save thousands of years of seafaring, geometry and astronomy. If, however, you were to insist that we were not in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, but had been-as though by magic-transported to the middle of the Atlantic, and that you were right and I was wrong, and that you  had the independent research of a chemist, a science teacher and a medical doctor to support you, well....I'd have to throw you all off my boat.

Of course, you'd be there, adrift in the Pacific, insisting that all I had to support my position were insulting rants, put downs, and B.S. cartoons (charts and ephemeris), while I sailed for land. 

In the end, people who want to insist-against years of scientific evidence and experience-that the world is flat, and only 6500 years old, and that evolution is "just a theory," and an untrue one at that-or that the twin towers were a controlled demolition, as was WTC#7, are not worthy of much more than I've offered here....such people, people who cling to their ignorance when presented with solid factual rebuttal, people for whom the phrase "pearls before swine" was invented, are only worthy of one appelation, as I said:

*Morons.*


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## Grenadier (Sep 16, 2013)

*Administrator's Note:*

Thread locked, pending staff review.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator


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