# mma is a made up martial art.



## drop bear

There seems to be some confusion regarding mma and making stuff up as we go along.

mma as it stands now Is a result of an art adapting to a competition. Rather than a competition deriving from an art.

so the art itself is a fluid concept. There is a constant testing innovating and re testing of ideas. The contest is the crucible in which the art is created.

this fluidity means that new terms and new ideas are created constantly..

yes we make stuff up as we go along. Different gyms will call the same techniques different things. Or have entirely new techniques.

so in doing mma or talking to a mmaer you may have to deal with terms like the abracadabra kick or the vertical round house.

my point still is here so long as you can do it. And so long as you can make yourself understood. The names are less important.


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## drop bear

the showtime kick.

(it is a made up name by the way. And probably a made up kick)


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## Buka

All Martial Arts are made up when you think about it.


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## Steve

Most modern martial arts in which people train were formalized within the last 100 years or so.   

The difference between Mma and some other, traditional styles is training emphasis.  

Mma focuses on efficacy, specifically in the ring. 

Traditional styles focus on doing it exactly the way your instructor does it, first and foremost.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Xue Sheng

Steve said:


> Most modern martial arts in which people train were formalized within the last 100 years or so.
> 
> The difference between Mma and some other, traditional styles is training emphasis.
> 
> Mma focuses on efficacy, specifically in the ring.
> 
> Traditional styles focus on doing it exactly the way your instructor does it, first and foremost.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Agree with all but this



Steve said:


> Traditional styles focus on doing it exactly the way your instructor does it, first and foremost.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Reason I disagree is because it is not possible, no one can do something exactly the way their instructor does, it is not physically possible. You learn from your instructor and adapt it to yourself. I do not do Taiji the exact same way as my sifu and he does not do it the exact same way as his and his sifu does not do it exactly the same way has his sifu.

I would go with traditional martial arts tends to follow more of a template than many modern Martial Arts. But even with modern martial arts as an example...most there are, at least in the beginning, trying to do things just like their teacher


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## ballen0351

MMA isnt a style.  Its a combo of already know styles.  Depending on where you train.  Some schools pair Boxing Muay thai and BJJ others pair different arts Im in a shopping center right now that has an MMA school its TKD, BJJ, and Judo.
MMA doesnt make up nonsense like a vertical roundhouse.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> There seems to be some confusion regarding mma and making stuff up as we go along.
> 
> mma as it stands now Is a result of an art adapting to a competition. Rather than a competition deriving from an art.
> 
> so the art itself is a fluid concept. There is a constant testing innovating and re testing of ideas. The contest is the crucible in which the art is created.
> 
> this fluidity means that new terms and new ideas are created constantly..
> 
> yes we make stuff up as we go along. Different gyms will call the same techniques different things. Or have entirely new techniques.
> 
> so in doing mma or talking to a mmaer you may have to deal with terms like the abracadabra kick or the vertical round house.
> 
> my point still is here so long as you can do it. And so long as you can make yourself understood. The names are less important.




There's is no confusion. MMA is what it says it is *MIXED MARTIAL ARTS*. Note the word *ARTS*, it is not *AN *art adapting to anything, it is techniques from many styles being used together in on competition. The arts are ones we all know and love therefore there aren't 'new made up' techniques just the adapting of existing techniques for a specific competition.
It is becoming a style with it's amalgamating of techniques, as people train MMA as opposed to single styles. Those of us who were early into MMA didn't have the luxury of being able to train MMA as an entity, we had trained single styles and had to meld them together ourselves.
No, we don't make stuff up as we go along, what we do is find techniques we like for our size, weight, build etc and adapt them to suit us, we discard those techniques we find don't work for us BUT they remain techniques that you will find in martial arts so they will retain the names they had then. An 'abracadabra' kick is a front kick, it will always be a front kick that someone has_ slightly _adapted to make it work better for him, now most people have a kick they think is 'magic' for them, it doesn't mean we all now call that kick 'the magic kick'!

There is nothing new under the sun, the times we've had someone come in and claim they have found a 'new' technique only for them to show us and we say yeah, it's been done before, it may differ slightly but it's not new. there are only so many ways you can actually kcik punch and even grapple. yes people do things a bit different from each other but the techniques are the same whoever is doing it and rarely to be honest do people call things by very different names.

Al this talk of 'crucibles' and 'testing, innovating, creating' etc is publicity speak, what you get from commentators hyping up a fight night. I can tell you now that the techniques we use now would have been used in Pankration way back in Ancient Greece!

Do we make things up as we go along...no. What we do is watch, learn, adapt, see what works, see what doesn't in techniques that come from all and any arts that have been around a long time.

I think you miss the point about what is exciting about MMA. it's not the training, it's the competition against yourself. We train the techniques we know work for us, we have them honed sharp and ready to use, we know our game plan and then we fight, the challenge of getting your opponent where you want them, avoiding them getting you where they want you, thinking tactically while striking, thinking moves ahead when grappling, see if you can take that hit and carry on and more. That's the excitement, the draw and lure of MMA. We used martial arts techniques that people have been using for years, we mix them up and we fight. That's enough, that's excitement, that's life if you love competition and challenging yourself.

It's nonsense to say we make up kicks, we make up strikes because I can tell you for a start in any given fight I can tell you what techniques are used and most likely what style or art they are used in, any competent martial artist can. It does matter what things are called because it allows people to understand what you are talking about....'a vertical roundhouse kick' tells people nothing other than ther is no such thing.

Oh and the 'showtime kick'?.....it's a mawashigeri, a roundhouse kick,  that he comes off the cage and spins afterwards doesn't make it anything different. It's not made up at all, the spin at the end? it can be used to go into another technique, a lot of styles can do that.


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## Mephisto

Tez3, I agree that there's probably nothing new but as for making things up? I'd disagree with your outlook. If you modify a technique from the way it was taught to you than you are innovating and changing and thus making up your own applications. If you modify a technique some more dogmatic practitioners within a system might infer that you're doing it wrong. I've been accused of this, I wasn't told I was wrong but fellow practitioners that only do exactly what the GM teaches asked me what the hell I was doing. I like to focus on sparring and with sparring you need to make things work for you, you must innovate and make things up and try them out. What you change or come up with has probably been done by someone else somewhere but if it's new to you than, yes it's made up. Guys that don't spar are more rigid and less apt to change things. They may perform a move with an emphasis geared toward their body type but their changes are due.to their anatomy not necessarily a need to make something work in combat.

IMO we should be experimenting and changing things, each generation should be able to build on the strengths of the last. The GM should not permanently be the best fighter in a system, if he successfully imparts all of his knowledge to his students they should surpass him and he should be proud. Change is necessary and it can be cyclical a generation may favor a set of moves only to have a future generation revisit older less popular techniques and reinnovate them.


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## jks9199

Maybe a different word than "made up" is in order.  Mixed Martial Arts is becoming an assembled, eclectic martial art.  It draws on ring experience and modern sport training methods to prepare participants for fighting in various sports environments and rule sets that allow a wide range of combative techniques to be used.


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## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> Tez3, I agree that there's probably nothing new but as for making things up? I'd disagree with your outlook. If you modify a technique from the way it was taught to you than you are innovating and changing and thus making up your own applications. If you modify a technique some more dogmatic practitioners within a system might infer that you're doing it wrong. I've been accused of this, I wasn't told I was wrong but fellow practitioners that only do exactly what the GM teaches asked me what the hell I was doing. I like to focus on sparring and with sparring you need to make things work for you, you must innovate and make things up and try them out. What you change or come up with has probably been done by someone else somewhere but if it's new to you than, yes it's made up. Guys that don't spar are more rigid and less apt to change things. They may perform a move with an emphasis geared toward their body type but their changes are due.to their anatomy not necessarily a need to make something work in combat.
> 
> IMO we should be experimenting and changing things, each generation should be able to build on the strengths of the last. The GM should not permanently be the best fighter in a system, if he successfully imparts all of his knowledge to his students they should surpass him and he should be proud. Change is necessary and it can be cyclical a generation may favor a set of moves only to have a future generation revisit older less popular techniques and reinnovate them.




However I think what you are saying is more relevant to TMA than MMA. We don't have GMs who tells you that you are doing it wrong or who are the 'best fighters'. When we do things differently we get interest. We don't have people who don't spar and we do everything with a view to competition/combat. I don't disagree with you just I don't see that it applies so much to MMA.  
I don't see, I'm afraid, that if it's new to you then it's made up. It surely just means it's new to you?
What has been presented to us is videos of 'made up' kicks but when you look at them they aren't, they are martial arts staples. The fighter's leg in the actual kick has been in the exact position it should be for that type of kick, so no it's not a made up kick. The lead up may have been a bit different, and after may have been a bit different but the kick? The kick is a known and well used martial arts kick. So what techniques are made up?


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## Buka

Mephisto said:


> Tez3, I agree that there's probably nothing new but as for making things up? I'd disagree with your outlook. If you modify a technique from the way it was taught to you than you are innovating and changing and thus making up your own applications. If you modify a technique some more dogmatic practitioners within a system might infer that you're doing it wrong. I've been accused of this, I wasn't told I was wrong but fellow practitioners that only do exactly what the GM teaches asked me what the hell I was doing. I like to focus on sparring and with sparring you need to make things work for you, you must innovate and make things up and try them out. What you change or come up with has probably been done by someone else somewhere but if it's new to you than, yes it's made up. Guys that don't spar are more rigid and less apt to change things. They may perform a move with an emphasis geared toward their body type but their changes are due.to their anatomy not necessarily a need to make something work in combat.
> 
> IMO we should be experimenting and changing things, each generation should be able to build on the strengths of the last. The GM should not permanently be the best fighter in a system, if he successfully imparts all of his knowledge to his students they should surpass him and he should be proud. Change is necessary and it can be cyclical a generation may favor a set of moves only to have a future generation revisit older less popular techniques and reinnovate them.



Good stuff, that.

And you know what every teacher should strive for - make your students better Martial Artists than you are. Otherwise, what would be the point?


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## Tez3

What I'm tending to think is that some people who train MMA are being exposed to techniques they haven't seen before because they come from arts they aren't familiar with so are assuming the fighter using them has 'made up' those techniques.


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## Hanzou

jks9199 said:


> Maybe a different word than "made up" is in order.  Mixed Martial Arts is becoming an assembled, eclectic martial art.  It draws on ring experience and modern sport training methods to prepare participants for fighting in various sports environments and rule sets that allow a wide range of combative techniques to be used.



So is Bjj, for similar reasons. Our school has Judo, Wrestling, and No-gi classes on top of old school Gracie Jiujitsu. Our competition/nogi instructor started teaching Catch Wrestling last month. Frankly, we learn all of that to make us better fighters overall. Not just for the ring, but for self defense as well. Bjj is a MMA by default.

In my view, its one of Bjjs big advantages over Judo, and other grappling arts.


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## Tez3

Buka said:


> Good stuff, that.
> 
> And you know what every teacher should strive for - make your students better Martial Artists than you are. Otherwise, what would be the point?




In MMA that is exactly what coaches strive for...to make the 'perfect' fighter. There is no 'holding back' on techniques simply because there is no point. It might be for slightly selfish reasons of course, the fighter's abilities are going to be there for all to see and reflect the coach. The more successful the fighter, the more successful the coach.


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## Transk53

This is a very strange thread. So for example, when I go back to Wing Chun and probably in six months or so, if I added a knee practising Chi Sau, would that be in affect be making things up. Sorry I just fail to see that, surely the knee is a add on and has no tangible affect on Wing Chun? Surely if MMA was making things up as it goes along, where is the coherence in that. Someone tries a new move been made up, a kick to the neck for example would likely paralyse. Sorry, I just don't get it. 

A Martial Art is based on coherence honed by generations, making something up on the fly is all well and good, but has to based on coherence of whatever art you do. The sandbox is simply not that vast. Is MMA not made up of Boxers, Wrestlers and Grappler's, what new move made up could possibly be safe on the fly. Rambling over, going to go and be confused.com elsewhere.


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## Buka

Tez3 said:


> In MMA that is exactly what coaches strive for...to make the 'perfect' fighter. There is no 'holding back' on techniques simply because there is no point. It might be for slightly selfish reasons of course, the fighter's abilities are going to be there for all to see and reflect the coach. The more successful the fighter, the more successful the coach.



I believe it true in Arts not interested in competition as well. All I ever wanted was my students to be better Martial Artists than I was/am at every level of their development. The hardest part for me early on, was realizing students aren't in the Arts for the same reason I was, or as crazy and dedicated. (They actually had lives

It took a while, a lot of trial and error over the years, to see which parts of training would better help someone over, say, a five year period. But it's working out nicely. A lot of them are better grapplers than I am, which thrills me to no end. The kids all grapple as part of their training (Bjj based) as opposed to the kids pre - 2000.
I can't wait to see what some of them will be like ten years from now. I hope I'm alive to see it.


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## Buka

Transk53 said:


> This is a very strange thread. So for example, when I go back to Wing Chun and probably in six months or so, if I added a knee practising Chi Sau, would that be in affect be making things up. Sorry I just fail to see that, surely the knee is a add on and has no tangible affect on Wing Chun? Surely if MMA was making things up as it goes along, where is the coherence in that. Someone tries a new move been made up, a kick to the neck for example would likely paralyse. Sorry, I just don't get it.
> 
> A Martial Art is based on coherence honed by generations, making something up on the fly is all well and good, but has to based on coherence of whatever art you do. The sandbox is simply not that vast. Is MMA not made up of Boxers, Wrestlers and Grappler's, what new move made up could possibly be safe on the fly. Rambling over, going to go and be confused.com elsewhere.



I don't think anyone is making up something on the fly. Adapting is a key component in fighting, in life.....hell, even in relationships.
To me, he who is not capable to adapt - is screwed


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## Transk53

Buka said:


> I don't think anyone is making up something on the fly. Adapting is a key component in fighting, in life.....hell, even in relationships.
> To me, he who is not capable to adapt - is screwed



Totally agree buka at least with the latter. The former though, I am still not sure.


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## K-man

Mephisto said:


> Tez3, I agree that there's probably nothing new but as for making things up? I'd disagree with your outlook. If you modify a technique from the way it was taught to you than you are innovating and changing and thus making up your own applications. If you modify a technique some more dogmatic practitioners within a system might infer that you're doing it wrong. I've been accused of this, I wasn't told I was wrong but fellow practitioners that only do exactly what the GM teaches asked me what the hell I was doing. I like to focus on sparring and with sparring you need to make things work for you, you must innovate and make things up and try them out. What you change or come up with has probably been done by someone else somewhere but if it's new to you than, yes it's made up. Guys that don't spar are more rigid and less apt to change things. They may perform a move with an emphasis geared toward their body type but their changes are due.to their anatomy not necessarily a need to make something work in combat.
> 
> IMO we should be experimenting and changing things, each generation should be able to build on the strengths of the last. The GM should not permanently be the best fighter in a system, if he successfully imparts all of his knowledge to his students they should surpass him and he should be proud. Change is necessary and it can be cyclical a generation may favor a set of moves only to have a future generation revisit older less popular techniques and reinnovate them.


Have you ever heard of Shuhari? What you have described is simply the way the Japanese teach many things including the martial arts. Changing something to make it work for you is not making something new. It is modifying an existing technique to suit you. If you then start teaching you might teach someone to do something your way only to find that in time they change it back to the original to make it work for them.


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## drop bear

I hadn't seen a superman punch before mma.


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## drop bear

Buka said:


> I don't think anyone is making up something on the fly. Adapting is a key component in fighting, in life.....hell, even in relationships.
> To me, he who is not capable to adapt - is screwed



cartwheels?

i am pretty sure sakuraba makes stuff up on the fly


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## Transk53

drop bear said:


> I hadn't seen a superman punch before mma.



Superman punch would be Nigel Benn IMHO.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> I hadn't seen a superman punch before mma.




I have, I've trained it too in karate. I told you what it was called, Tobikomizuki. That fact you haven't see it before doesn't mean it was 'made up' by an MMA fighter. I haven't seen all the moves in Capoeira but I don't believe that when Jean Silva does them in the cage he makes them up.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> I have, I've trained it too in karate. I told you what it was called, Tobikomizuki. That fact you haven't see it before doesn't mean it was 'made up' by an MMA fighter. I haven't seen all the moves in Capoeira but I don't believe that when Jean Silva does them in the cage he makes them up.



i have done capoeira. I even have an embarrassing brazilin nickname.

anyway 

this?


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## Buka

drop bear said:


> cartwheels?
> 
> i am pretty sure sakuraba makes stuff up on the fly



As for Superman punches, heck, I got hit by them in the seventies. Until I started sweeping their legs (thighs) out while they were in that up position...they didn't throw them at me after that.

As for cartwheels - I have hit everybody with a cartwheel kick. Boxers, nationally ranked karate guys, kickboxers, cops. Cartwheel kicks should be thrown in close, within left hook distance. Oh, the things I could teach you about cartwheels. The more of a rough and tumble fighter a guy is, the easier he is to dime with a cartwheel. And I know what everybody reading this is thinking, "you couldn't hit me with that foolish thing, I'd stick it up your kiester" 
Nah, you'ld eat it like everyone else who thought that.

I gotta get a movie camera at the gym. You gotta' see the proper distance it's thrown from.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> i have done capoeira. I even have an embarrassing brazilin nickname.
> 
> anyway
> 
> this?




No that's not it despite what the person doing it says it is. Did you not read the words underneath that it was for children! The stance is wrong, the punch is wrong in fact I wouldn't even grade someone doing that.


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Superman punch would be Nigel Benn IMHO.



i googled it you can see it in muay Thai and some of its off shoots apparently.


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## Tez3




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## drop bear

Buka said:


> As for Superman punches, heck, I got hit by them in the seventies. Until I started sweeping their legs (thighs) out while they were in that up position...they didn't throw them at me after that.
> 
> As for cartwheels - I have hit everybody with a cartwheel kick. Boxers, nationally ranked karate guys, kickboxers, cops. Cartwheel kicks should be thrown in close, within left hook distance. Oh, the things I could teach you about cartwheels. The more of a rough and tumble fighter a guy is, the easier he is to dime with a cartwheel. And I know what everybody reading this is thinking, "you couldn't hit me with that foolish thing, I'd stick it up your kiester"
> Nah, you'ld eat it like everyone else who thought that.
> 
> I gotta get a movie camera at the gym. You gotta' see the proper distance it's thrown from.



yeah but did you make that kick up on the fly?


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> i googled it you can see it in muay Thai and some of its off shoots apparently.




So you are now saying it is not a made up technique?  what's with this 'on the fly' bit mean. To do things on the fly means to be on the wrong side of the law, where does that fit in?


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> So you are now saying it is not a made up technique?  what's with this 'on the fly' bit mean. To do things on the fly means to be on the wrong side of the law, where does that fit in?



yeah it probably isn't made up. That is the fun of stuff i can be wrong some times.

still not sure about your karate one though.


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## Buka

drop bear said:


> yeah but did you make that kick up on the fly?



No. I saw it in a demo (a pretty foolish demo, actually) We started playing with it at the dojo when we were hanging after class. We were pretty much making fools of ourselves and having a good old time. One of the guys rushed the other, intending to pick him up while he was in the upside down position - but he got caught by both legs in the face. It was ugly, broken nose, black eye. We started thinking, "hey, wait a minute"....it took a while, maybe a year or so. What we concluded was - you don't aim to hit with your feet, you aim to hit with your legs. Anywhere from your upper calf to your lower thigh. You'll be sideways while you hit - so the legs should be separated a bit. Then we had to figure how to enter with the damn thing. Our jits training came into play - if you can shoot quickly, you're going to be all set, except instead of using your shoot speed forward, it has to go straight down, like you were going to knock your head into the floor - right between your own feet.

And you have to be close range. And you have to know how to punch. Not just look like you can punch, actually know how to punch. (it helps if you have a good, quick right cross or overhand right) You should throw it once you've established your right to his face. The initial movement is a right hand in close (orthodox stance) which immediately goes to the floor.

Once we had it, or thought we had it, we had to test it outside the dojo. So we did it in competition. Worked like a charm - except you got disqualified sometimes. For either "excessive contact" or "throwing a blind technique" (hey, you know how refs are) Then we took it into kickboxing competition - where we got yelled at again, sometimes issued warnings - but the damn thing always landed.

You also have to be comfortable on the ground....obviously, I hope.


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## K-man

drop bear said:


> I hadn't seen a superman punch before mma.


Looks like a karate reverse punch to me.


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## Tez3

In Wado we do it with the front hand but I agree a reverse punch would qualify but but it's not a made up punch!

DB your video says it's been disabled by the owner.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> In Wado we do it with the front hand but I agree a reverse punch would qualify but but it's not a made up punch!
> 
> DB your video says it's been disabled by the owner.



fair enough. Same movement different guy.


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## jks9199

Buka said:


> As for Superman punches, heck, I got hit by them in the seventies. Until I started sweeping their legs (thighs) out while they were in that up position...they didn't throw them at me after that.


Knocked a guy out of the air who was scoring with them in a point tournament around 1988.  (Silly judges still gave him the point 'cause his powerless hand flip leap got in before my locked solid punch dropped him to the floor...  Tag games are so fun.)

Superman punches are just a leaping punch.  They way I've generally seen them done isn't the best; you're wide open if someone sees it coming and knows how to stop it.  Doesn't mean they never work, doesn't mean there's no place...  just that most that I've seen are essentially "cowabungu-I'ma-comin'" with little strategy to them.  Seems like they've dropped off the radar over the last few years, though I'm not certain on that.

(And I make the same criticism over a lot of MMA and kickboxers kicks...  They don't set the things up, they just fling 'em and hope they land.  Don't get me started on the guy who landed three front kicks to an opponent's face... and lost because the opponent wasn't stopped.)


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> fair enough. Same movement different guy.



Then it's not the one we do. It starts in short left stance and goes on exactly how I showed in the picture. There's no other stance used and it is most definitely ( and defiantly to use your spelling) a 'superman' punch. It's one of my favourites because I'm not tall and it gives me considerable extra 'reach'. Just to upset Steve, this is how the army boxer's nose got broken.


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## K-man

drop bear said:


> i have done capoeira. I even have an embarrassing brazilin nickname.
> 
> anyway
> 
> this?


'Tobi' is jumping so no, that is not tobikomizuki despite what it is labelled.


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## K-man

Tez3 said:


> In Wado we do it with the front hand but I agree a reverse punch would qualify but but it's not a made up punch!


Actually we would call the front lunge punch Kizame Tsuki and the reverse punch Gyaku Tsuki. Add the jump and in the videos you have Tobi Kizame Tsuki or Tobi Gyaku Tsuki. Nothing new there.


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## Tez3

K-man said:


> 'Tobi' is jumping so no, that is not *tobikomizuki *despite what it is labelled.



As we are off topic anyway......this technique is used sometimes to counter the argument that there is ' no first strike in karate' in Wado circles lol. It starts with a short left stance, left foot slightly in front of right and hands down though not like those in video, more naturally. The argument goes that because the hands are down it means it's an aggressive move more than the usual defensive ones. It may be worthy of a thread on it's own, I'm not sure but it's a little titbit of karate


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## K-man

Tez3 said:


> As we are off topic anyway......this technique is used sometimes to counter the argument that there is ' no first strike in karate' in Wado circles lol. It starts with a short left stance, left foot slightly in front of right and hands down though not like those in video, more naturally. The argument goes that because the hands are down it means it's an aggressive move more than the usual defensive ones. It may be worthy of a thread on it's own, I'm not sure but it's a little titbit of karate


A similar strike is Gammon Ura Uchi where the first hand pulls the defences out of the way allowing the back fist open access. This jumping strike does the same thing with the front arm combined with the dropping body weight clearing the way for the reverse strike. 

I can remember seeing my former instructor, quite a small guy, using it in the world karate championships in Sydney in the mid 80s.


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## drop bear

Anyway back to mma. If not made up where did it originate from?


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## K-man

drop bear said:


> Anyway back to mma. If not made up where did it originate from?


You really need to ask?

How about BJJ and Muay Thai for starters. Then you can add in most of the various karate styles, TKD etc.

MMA, mixed martial arts!


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## Steve

The ingredients are known, but the recipe is made up by someone.    Bjj is a derivative of judo, but it's become something else.   Very few great ideas are invented from nothing.   But they remain new, nonetheless.   

Judi was made up from jujutsu.  Bjj and sambo were made up from a mixture of judo and other stuff.   Mma is made up, too.   It didn't exist, and now it does.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve

I have a question.  who cares what a technique is called outside of your school.  It really seems like some people are getting hung up on semantics.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> I have a question.  who cares what a technique is called outside of your school.  It really seems like some people are getting hung up on semantics.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



i am the only person who does that apparently Me an jon jones.

honestly mma is terrible for it as we are constantly pulling things from other styles.

or using nicknames.

i don't think the t bag submission is a correct term either.


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## Buka

All Martial Arts were made up by somebody. All fighting contests were made up by somebody.

Fighting - gee, ya think the human race has any experience in that? A lot of people are horrified at the very idea. People like us reach for popcorn. 

Ain't it grand?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> I have a question.  who cares what a technique is called outside of your school.  It really seems like some people are getting hung up on semantics.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
I don't think anybody is all that hung up on semantics. The simple reality is that if there is a commonly used name for a technique, then it is only sensible to use that term. If you say a roundhouse, pretty much everybody will know what you're talking about, even if you qualify it by saying "low" or "to the ribs" or whatever.
However, when you start calling a front kick a "verticle roundhouse" then you're doing nothing other than making communication more difficult. People response will not be "I know what you mean" it will be "WTF are you babbling about?".
If your interest is in communication, then it is in your best interest to use accepted terminology, not redefine terms as you go along. Otherwise it's all gobbldy blobbity cryptologins wattle.


----------



## Reeksta

At the risk of being pedantic, a superman punch isn't just a leaping punch. It's specifically when you fake throwing a kick first and that's it's main purpose: to deceive. The karate techniques mentioned don't appear to be trying to feign a kick beforehand, which would make them a different thing to a superman punch. I could be wrong as I'm not a big expert on karate but as this hasn't been mentioned by anyone I thought it was worth clarifying


----------



## Tez3

Reeksta said:


> At the risk of being pedantic, a superman punch isn't just a leaping punch. It's specifically when you fake throwing a kick first and that's it's main purpose: to deceive. The karate techniques mentioned don't appear to be trying to feign a kick beforehand, which would make them a different thing to a superman punch. I could be wrong as I'm not a big expert on karate but as this hasn't been mentioned by anyone I thought it was worth clarifying



Well, the point is the punch is still the same, you can do any feint you want before any technique but it doesn't change that technique. I quite often feint a roundhouse kick but then do a hook kick, however it is still a hook kick whether or not it has a feint before it.
Doing a feint or a strike before a technique doesn't change the technique it just makes it a combination of techniques. In karate we train combinations a lot but it doesn't change the nature of each component. If you do a snap punch, reverse punch, roundhouse kick and then a reverse punch you don't call that combination by a different name, you call it snap punch, reverse punch, roundhouse kick then reverse punch.


----------



## Reeksta

Tez3 said:


> Well, the point is the punch is still the same, you can do any feint you want before any technique but it doesn't change that technique. I quite often feint a roundhouse kick but then do a hook kick, however it is still a hook kick whether or not it has a feint before it.
> Doing a feint or a strike before a technique doesn't change the technique it just makes it a combination of techniques. In karate we train combinations a lot but it doesn't change the nature of each component. If you do a snap punch, reverse punch, roundhouse kick and then a reverse punch you don't call that combination by a different name, you call it snap punch, reverse punch, roundhouse kick then reverse punch.


But in this instance the feint is integral to the technique. You HAVE to bring the rear leg up so you can snap it back to create the distinctive 'superman' movement. If you're not doing that then you're not doing a superman punch, you're doing something else.
Here's a vid I found which probably explains things better than I'm managing to do


----------



## Tez3

The 'naming' of techniques and the use of specific strikes in MMA has nothing to do with martial arts and all to do with marketing a fighter. It's not enough these days to be a good fighter and win fighters, you have to have something to catch the promoters and the public's eye. You have to stand out, one way to do this is to be known for doing a flash move. So that when people talk about MMA they say 'wow Joe Bloggs and his wizard kick'. They will buy 'wizard kick' t-shirts, videos showing them how to do it etc. It's commercial and it works, the video you posted proves that lol.


----------



## Reeksta

Tez3 said:


> The 'naming' of techniques and the use of specific strikes in MMA has nothing to do with martial arts and all to do with marketing a fighter. It's not enough these days to be a good fighter and win fighters, you have to have something to catch the promoters and the public's eye. You have to stand out, one way to do this is to be known for doing a flash move. So that when people talk about MMA they say 'wow Joe Blogs and his wizard kick'. They will buy 'wizard kick' t-shirts, videos showing them how to do it etc. It's commercial and it works, the video you posted proves that lol.


Fair enough, I don't disagree with a lot of that. However the only point I was making is that the raising of the leg is integral to performing what is universally known in kickboxing, muay thai and MMA as a superman punch and that this makes the technique different to the karate techniques that had been mentioned


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> So you are now saying it is not a made up technique?  what's with this 'on the fly' bit mean. To do things on the fly means to be on the wrong side of the law, where does that fit in?



Huh, maybe the expression mean something different in the UK. I've never heard it used in relation to legality in any way.

Over here it refers to doing something quickly without preparation. In this case it would refer to improvising the technique in the middle of sparring.


----------



## Tez3

Reeksta said:


> Fair enough, I don't disagree with a lot of that. However the only point I was making is that the raising of the leg is integral to performing what is universally known in kickboxing, muay thai and MMA as a superman punch and that this makes the technique different to the karate techniques that had been mentioned




However, you have made my point because what drop bear was saying was that it was unknown until MMA and it was made up by a fighter whereas the truth is in whatever form we know it , it is as you say universally known and has been used for a very long time. We can discuss how it's done and whether it's one technique or not simply because we do know it and it's not a new invented kicks in MMA.


Fly...it's know here for being shady or illegal as in 'fly tipping' the illegal dumping of waste or for someone who is fly ie sly or underhand, or to fly, to scarper.

We would say he 'winged it'


----------



## tshadowchaser

the statement was mad a few or more posts ago asking when MMA was created if it was not a made up art.  Hell that's an easy one to answer. The first time two people fought and ended up on the ground or even kicking each other.  Most likely soon after man became man and had a conflict between two people.  Any time there was a conflict and someone did something different from what the other guy was doing it became a MMA without a ring and ref.


----------



## Transk53

Reeksta said:


> But in this instance the feint is integral to the technique. You HAVE to bring the rear leg up so you can snap it back to create the distinctive 'superman' movement. If you're not doing that then you're not doing a superman punch, you're doing something else.
> Here's a vid I found which probably explains things better than I'm managing to do



Sure I have seen Cung Le do that in the movie "Dragon Eyes". Nice clip


----------



## drop bear

tshadowchaser said:


> the statement was mad a few or more posts ago asking when MMA was created if it was not a made up art.  Hell that's an easy one to answer. The first time two people fought and ended up on the ground or even kicking each other.  Most likely soon after man became man and had a conflict between two people.  Any time there was a conflict and someone did something different from what the other guy was doing it became a MMA without a ring and ref.



not really the accepted term of mma though.

ironically that is a made up definition.

by the way. I found that Dan Higgins. A trainer in Queensland has a higgimora submission.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Seems like we have a few different concepts floating around at cross-purposes here. Let's see if we can untangle them a bit ...

1) MMA is made up by people. So is every other martial art on the face of the planet. If you are allergic to the term "made up" for some reason, you can say "invented" or "developed" or even "discovered." One way or the other, they are all the result of human creativity.

2) "Made up" doesn't mean "something pulled out of the inventors brain with no connection to anything that came before." The people who invent/make up/develop/discover a new style or a new technique are doing it based on and in the context of whatever training and other experiences they may have had previously.  This is no different from any other creative endeavor. Someone who writes an original song or novel is rearranging elements and themes that have existed in other works for ages.

3) "Made up" doesn't mean "something that is 100% original and has never existed before." A BJJ practitioner might invent a new finish for an omoplata entirely on his own, only to later discover a picture of some forgotten judoka or catch wrestler doing the same move 50 years earlier. Likewise, a mystery novelist might invent a plot twist for her latest book, only to later find out the same idea had been used in some obscure book a century prior.

4) Terminology is made up all the time. Sometimes it is made up for a technique that is new (or new to the namer). Sometimes it is made up by someone developing a new art who wants to distinguish his art from its predecessors or to be more descriptive. Sometimes it is made up as an art moves into a culture with a different language. Sometimes it is made up because a practitioner wants more fine-grained description of the different elements in his/her art.

5) In order to be useful, terminology has to be understood. Techniques get named and renamed all the time, but if I were to just make up my own words for all the moves I practice and start using those terms in discussions on this board, then no one would know what I was talking about. In order for communication to occur, people have to know what the terms mean, no matter who invented them.

6) There are a number of factors which can determine how understanding of new terminology will spread.
If you are an instructor and use certain terminology, then at least students at your school will understand the terms.
If you are the founder of a new style, then students of your style will understand your terms. If your style becomes popular and widespread, then even practitioners of other styles may become familiar with them.
If your terminology is useful, because it describes something which is commonly used but which didn't have a widely known name before, then it may spread.
If your terminology is particularly evocative or easily understood, then it may become popular.
If you have some popular communication channel or spokesperson to spread your terminology to the masses, then it may become widely understood.

With that in mind, let's look at some of the MMA based terminology that has been mentioned.

_Superman punch_: used to describe a specific maneuver where you fake a kick and then use the momentum from the leg motion to power a leaping punch. (It's not just an arbitrary feint, the leg action is an intrinsic part of the motion.) Doubtless the move had been used before the advent of MMA, but it wasn't widely known and didn't have a specific name that was widely known. When it became popular in MMA and someone coined the term "superman punch" it stuck for a variety of reasons.
It was useful, describing a technique that was now being practiced and didn't have a pre-existing name (that anybody knew about)
It was evocative: how can anyone not want to learn the "Superman punch"?
It could spread widely, via the commenters for a televised popular sport.

_Abracadabra kick_: used by Jon Jones to describe a certain type of faked roundhouse transitioning into a front kick. I learned a variation of the same move in Muay Thai, although it wasn't given a specific name. Jon Jones is a well known fighter, so if the maneuver becomes popular, then his term might stick. Right now, probably no one would understand the term unless they had watched that specific video.

_The Showtime kick_: used by the MMA press to describe a specific event in which Anthony Pettis managed to pull off what looked like a movie stunt in actual competition. As far as I know, no one is using it to describe a regularly practiced technique. If we get a new generation of Parkour-based fighters who regularly throw kicks while running up the walls of the cage, then maybe that will change.

_Vertical roundhouse_: used by drop bear to describe a low inside roundhouse that creeps up into the opponent's groin. I'm not aware of anyone else using the term, unless the other guys at drop bear's gym call it that. I think the term is unlikely to spread for a number of reasons - it describes a common technique that already has a common name (low inside roundhouse), it's confusing rather than evocative, and there's no one I know of advocating for its use except drop bear (who is not a well known instructor, fighter, or tv personality).


----------



## K-man

Reeksta said:


> But in this instance the feint is integral to the technique. You HAVE to bring the rear leg up so you can snap it back to create the distinctive 'superman' movement. If you're not doing that then you're not doing a superman punch, you're doing something else.
> Here's a vid I found which probably explains things better than I'm managing to do


Is it that the feint is integral, in which case it is still a feint followed by reverse punch, or is it a hop to make distance followed by a reverse strike. The action shown is exactly how you cover distance hopping.

Here is a young Superman in training for MMA.





Or if you want an exaggerated version. 





In either case the knee lifts first and the leg is forced back to give the forward momentum.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Is it that the feint is integral, in which case it is still a feint followed by reverse punch, or is it a hop to make distance followed by a reverse strike. The action shown is exactly how you cover distance hopping.
> 
> Here is a young Superman in training for MMA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or if you want an exaggerated version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In either case the knee lifts first and the leg is forced back to give the forward momentum.



both.

it is a feint and a device to create forward momentum.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

K-man said:


> Is it that the feint is integral, in which case it is still a feint followed by reverse punch, or is it a hop to make distance followed by a reverse strike.



As drop bear says, it's both. The leg action has a double purpose.


----------



## Reeksta

Going back to the original purpose of the thread, my understanding was that MMA competition as we recognise it today evolved from the Brazilian vale tudo bouts, which began mainly to settle rivalries between BJJ and luta livre practitioners


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Reeksta said:


> Going back to the original purpose of the thread, my understanding was that MMA competition as we recognise it today evolved from the Brazilian vale tudo bouts, which began mainly to settle rivalries between BJJ and luta livre practitioners



Not just luta livre practitioners - karateka, boxers, street fighters, other BJJ practitioners, anybody who was up for the challenge.


----------



## Tez3

Reeksta said:


> Going back to the original purpose of the thread, my understanding was that MMA competition as we recognise it today evolved from the Brazilian vale tudo bouts, which began mainly to settle rivalries between BJJ and luta livre practitioners



There have been MMA type fights and competitions around for years, in the 1900s they were common in Europe, Japan and other parts of Asia. No holds barred fighting was the norm before boxing had rules made which restricted what could be done. In the 1980's there was an MMA league in the USA, 'Tough Guy Contests'. Vale Tudo didn't come to the US until 1993. The USSR now Russia has Sombo where fights are the same as MMA, a couple of friends of mine competed in them in the early 1990s. Quite scary stuff.
Lee Hasdell, who is a legend, promoted the first MMA fight night in the UK in 97.


----------



## K-man

Tony Dismukes said:


> As drop bear says, it's both. The leg action has a double purpose.


Exactly and the actual technique is a reverse punch.


----------



## Reeksta

K-man said:


> Is it that the feint is integral, in which case it is still a feint followed by reverse punch, or is it a hop to make distance followed by a reverse strike. The action shown is exactly how you cover distance hopping.
> 
> Here is a young Superman in training for MMA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or if you want an exaggerated version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In either case the knee lifts first and the leg is forced back to give the forward momentum.


The strike doesn't follow the hop/feint though, they're performed simultaneously. The upper body action may be the same as a reverse punch but without the lower body motion it is not a superman punch. This is why, in my opinion, they can't be accurately classified as the same technique


----------



## K-man

Reeksta said:


> The strike doesn't follow the hop/feint though, they're performed simultaneously. The upper body action may be the same as a reverse punch but without the lower body motion it is not a superman punch. This is why, in my opinion, they can't be accurately classified as the same technique


I'd suggest you have another look. The person punching is coming from out of striking range and making distance. The kick and strike cannot possibly be at the same time.


----------



## Reeksta

The strike and the hopping motion are performed simultaneously. You're suggesting that the person hops into range then performs a reverse punch. The reality is that the punch happens while they are still in motion


----------



## Tez3

Yet another tutorial.


----------



## K-man

Reeksta said:


> The strike and the hopping motion are performed simultaneously. You're suggesting that the person hops into range then performs a reverse punch. The reality is that the punch happens while they are still in motion


Good grief, where did I say that? Of course it it is while he is in motion.   It is no different to running in and hitting or lunging and hitting. I don't actually think it is a feint at all. If you look at Tez's video it shows the hop and describes the jump, something I was trying to find earlier. No mention of kick or feint.


Tez3 said:


> Yet another tutorial.


If you watch this there is no inclination to kick. The knee barely rises.
After all this is why we were calling it a jumping kick.


----------



## Reeksta

K-man said:


> Is it that the feint is integral, in which case it is still a feint followed by reverse punch, or is it a hop to make distance followed by a reverse strike.


As you can see, that is in fact exactly what you said


----------



## Reeksta

I'm going to leave this debate as I don't feel we're getting anywhere. If anyone wishes to believe that a superman punch and a reverse punch are the same thing then fine. We will have to agree to disagree


----------



## Tez3

Reeksta said:


> As you can see, that is in fact exactly what you said



Not to be pedantic sorry but K-man didn't say it as a fact he asked a question, he did leave off the question mark though lol.

*"Is it* that the feint is integral, in which case it is still a feint followed by reverse punch, *or is it* a hop to make distance followed by a reverse strike."

At least it's written, when Aussies speak everything sounds like a question with their rising inflexion  ( going into hiding now)


----------



## K-man

Reeksta said:


> As you can see, that is in fact exactly what you said


No, it is exactly what you misunderstood. It is the combination of two actions. If you look at a high jumper jumping. His technique is the lay out over the bar. If he doesn't jump he could perhaps clear a metre or so, so he springs off one leg to get added height. But the spring and the layout are combined.




This video shows three different ways of high jumping. The technique is in how you go over the bar. All involve a spring. All include the spring in the technique to make it effective.

It is the same with the 'superman' punch. Without the spring you have a reverse punch. With the spring you still have a reverse punch but the spring gives you extra hight and momentum.


----------



## K-man

Tez3 said:


> Not to be pedantic sorry but K-man didn't say it as a fact he asked a question, he did leave off the question mark though lol.
> 
> *"Is it* that the feint is integral, in which case it is still a feint followed by reverse punch, *or is it* a hop to make distance followed by a reverse strike."
> 
> At least it's written, when Aussies speak everything sounds like a question with their rising inflexion  ( going into hiding now)


Just watch it young lady! I know where you live. 

?????????? Here's a batch of them to use to fix up my posts when I forget. Sheesh!!!


----------



## Tez3

K-man said:


> Just watch it young lady! I know where you live.
> 
> ?????????? Here's a batch of them to use to fix up my posts when I forget. Sheesh!!!


Hey if it's any consolation an Aussie has just this minute won the UK The Apprentice starting a business with Lord Sugar.


----------



## K-man

Tez3 said:


> Hey if it's any consolation an Aussie has just this minute won the UK The Apprentice starting a business with Lord Sugar.


And who in the hell is 'Lord Sugar'?





?????


----------



## Tez3

Good grief, he's Alan Michael Sugar founder of Amstrad and multi millionaire, he was Knighted then made a Lord.
Oh before guys think I've gone totally off topic I will say Lord Sugar is the most down to earth straight talker going, something that's worth thinking about whatever the topic and whatever the business.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> In the 1980's there was an MMA league in the USA, 'Tough Guy Contests'.



FYI, the Tough Man Contest was never an MMA event. It's basically an amateur boxing competition marketed for untrained fighters.



K-man said:


> No, it is exactly what you misunderstood. It is the combination of two actions. If you look at a high jumper jumping. His technique is the lay out over the bar. If he doesn't jump he could perhaps clear a metre or so, so he springs off one leg to get added height. But the spring and the layout are combined.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This video shows three different ways of high jumping. The technique is in how you go over the bar. All involve a spring. All include the spring in the technique to make it effective.
> 
> It is the same with the 'superman' punch. Without the spring you have a reverse punch. With the spring you still have a reverse punch but the spring gives you extra hight and momentum.



Meh, you can be a splitter or a lumper as far as terminology goes. Makes no difference to me so long as you can communicate your point. You can say "he faked a rear leg kick, then used the momentum from the leg action to help power a leaping right cross/reverse punch" or you can say "he threw a Superman punch." One way is more concise, but whatever floats your boat.


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> FYI, the Tough Man Contest was never an MMA event. It's basically an amateur boxing competition marketed for untrained fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> Meh, you can be a splitter or a lumper as far as terminology goes. Makes no difference to me so long as you can communicate your point. You can say "he faked a rear leg kick, then used the momentum from the leg action to help power a leaping right cross/reverse punch" or you can say "he threw a Superman punch." One way is more concise, but whatever floats your boat.



CV productions say they did the first MMA in the USA so guess you had better take it up with them for false advertising the. It does say they did boxing also but they are quite definite about the MMA.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> CV productions say they did the first MMA in the USA so guess you had better take it up with them for false advertising the. It does say they did boxing also but they are quite definite about the MMA.



I stand corrected. I thought you were referring to the Tough_man_ Contest. According to the folks at CV Productions, they held multiple events in 1980 under the Tough _Guy_ (later Super Fighters) name before quitting in 1981 due to legal pressure.

Most of the info I can find on these events goes back to promotional claims by Mr. Viola and Mr. Caliguri themselves. This article includes additional info. Apparently for the original event they recruited local street fighters. Experienced boxers or martial artists above green belt were banned from taking part. Later on they planned to start a professional league with actual experienced martial artists, but quit due to legal issues before getting to that point. This might explain why the events aren't widely known among martial artists and MMA buffs the way the Gene Lebell-Milo Savage match is.

It's an interesting bit of historical trivia, but it doesn't have much connection to the development of modern MMA.


----------



## drop bear

Reeksta said:


> Going back to the original purpose of the thread, my understanding was that MMA competition as we recognise it today evolved from the Brazilian vale tudo bouts, which began mainly to settle rivalries between BJJ and luta livre practitioners



but mma terminology is not bjj. Using the superman punch again as an example.

also there are mma schools that do not have a bjj affiliation. We are one for example.


----------



## drop bear

That abracadabra kick is also a fake integrated into the kick. I have seen kicks like that. It is chambered like a round kick and then turned into a front kick half way through. I t is a goober looking kick but does the job it is supposed to do.


----------



## drop bear

Reeksta said:


> Going back to the original purpose of the thread, my understanding was that MMA competition as we recognise it today evolved from the Brazilian vale tudo bouts, which began mainly to settle rivalries between BJJ and luta livre practitioners



there is a capoeira reference to that. Many all mma terms should be in Portuguese.

Foi No Clar o Da Lua CapoeiraSongBook.com


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> That abracadabra kick is also a fake integrated into the kick. I have seen kicks like that. It is chambered like a round kick and then turned into a front kick half way through. I t is a goober looking kick but does the job it is supposed to do.


And thirty years ago we were doing feints to the thigh before a kick to the head. It was still Mawashi geri!


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> And thirty years ago we were doing feints to the thigh before a kick to the head. It was still Mawashi geri!



so you were calling front kicks round kicks?


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> The 'naming' of techniques and the use of specific strikes in MMA has nothing to do with martial arts and all to do with marketing a fighter. It's not enough these days to be a good fighter and win fighters, you have to have something to catch the promoters and the public's eye. You have to stand out, one way to do this is to be known for doing a flash move. So that when people talk about MMA they say 'wow Joe Bloggs and his wizard kick'. They will buy 'wizard kick' t-shirts, videos showing them how to do it etc. It's commercial and it works, the video you posted proves that lol.


That's the same way it works for professional wrestlers in promotions like the WWE..


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> 'fly tipping'



Is that like cow tipping?


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> I stand corrected. I thought you were referring to the Tough_man_ Contest. According to the folks at CV Productions, they held multiple events in 1980 under the Tough _Guy_ (later Super Fighters) name before quitting in 1981 due to legal pressure.
> 
> Most of the info I can find on these events goes back to promotional claims by Mr. Viola and Mr. Caliguri themselves. This article includes additional info. Apparently for the original event they recruited local street fighters. Experienced boxers or martial artists above green belt were banned from taking part. Later on they planned to start a professional league with actual experienced martial artists, but quit due to legal issues before getting to that point. This might explain why the events aren't widely known among martial artists and MMA buffs the way the Gene Lebell-Milo Savage match is.
> 
> It's an interesting bit of historical trivia, but it doesn't have much connection to the development of modern MMA.




It's still part of 'MMA history' though, just as Pankration is and the no hold barred competitions of Europe and Asia. MMA didn't spring up fully formed when the UFC was formed, even that evolved into what it is now. There is a tendency for many to think that MMA and the UFC is the same thing


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> That abracadabra kick is also a fake integrated into the kick. I have seen kicks like that. It is chambered like a round kick and then turned into a front kick half way through. I t is a goober looking kick but does the job it is supposed to do.


It is basically a reverse question mark kick, why not just call it that?


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> It is basically a reverse question mark kick, why not just call it that?



see i have no issue calling it that. But some people may consider the name made up and so would demand it be called something else.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> see i have no issue calling it that. But some people may consider the name made up and so would demand it be called something else.


But at least if they called it that people would have at least some idea what they were talking about without having.to watch a specific video calling it by a  name such as an abracada*bra* (sounds like some kind of magic underwear) kick.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> so you were calling front kicks round kicks?


Noooh! The first was a lower roundhouse and the second was a high roundhouse. The point being their was a combination of two kicks where the first was a feint. The kick delivered was Mawashi geri, or roundhouse kick. Nothing magical, nothing made up and nothing new. We also often did a feint of a front kick before delivering an oi tsucki or front punch.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Noooh! The first was a lower roundhouse and the second was a high roundhouse. The point being their was a combination of two kicks where the first was a feint. The kick delivered was Mawashi geri, or roundhouse kick. Nothing magical, nothing made up and nothing new. We also often did a feint of a front kick before delivering an oi tsucki or front punch.



it lands as a front kick. Rtkdcmb,s description of it being a reverse question mark is a fairly apt description.

the path it travels is like an upside down question mark. You even dot their eye with it.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> it lands as a front kick. Rtkdcmb,s description of it being a reverse question mark is a fairly apt description.
> 
> the path it travels is like an upside down question mark. You even dot their eye with it.


Um! Yes, right! You were quoting my post when you wrote ...


drop bear said:


> so you were calling front kicks round kicks?


I was simply pointing out to you that there were many examples of combinations going way back. Perhaps again I could ask you to read my posts carefully. If there's something you don't understand, just ask, don't second guess. In my post I gave an example of the combination of two roundhouse kicks, one low and one high, one a feint, the other delivered. That was to show that it was not unusual for martial artists to combine techniques where sometimes on of the techniques was a feint.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Um! Yes, right! You were quoting my post when you wrote ...
> I was simply pointing out to you that there were many examples of combinations going way back. Perhaps again I could ask you to read my posts carefully. If there's something you don't understand, just ask, don't second guess. In my post I gave an example of the combination of two roundhouse kicks, one low and one high, one a feint, the other delivered. That was to show that it was not unusual for martial artists to combine techniques where sometimes on of the techniques was a feint.



but this is not a combination. It is a Frankenstein half round half front kick.


----------



## punisher73

As always, there is nothing new under the sun.  From historical records, we know that man has had some sort of combat sport pretty much since he organized himself into cities.

As far as "mixed martial arts".  For most people, in the US, it is synonymous with the UFC.  Brazil had it's Vale Tudo competitions, but they were not widespread.  There were probably others as well all over the place.  The first few UFC's were very much a "style vs. style" approach.  As it gained in popularity, fighters started to cross train to win fights and fill the holes in their approach.  One of the first "big name" UFC fighters to gain popularity with this idea was Marco Ruas.  He called it "Ruas Vale Tudo" and gained immediate fan support for the first TKO of a fighter just using his Muay Thai roundhouse kick over and over to Paul Varlenes (sp?).  Fighters started to add BJJ to their mix and started to win, next phase was the wrestler with his ground and pound approach.  Then you had strikers who had great takedown defense and could keep it standing (Chuck Liddell) and brought back the striker as champions.

There were other competitions as well.  The other big giant known to viewers in the US was PrideFC in Japan.  You saw a different set of techniques being used there in comparision to the UFC because of a different rule set and a different fighting venue (boxing ring vs. caged octagon).  Fighters going from one to the other weren't always successful due to these reasons.

All of this is to say that the UFC has "mainstreamed" the rules used by most competitions now along with the overseeing athletic commissions to make it legal in the US.  Yes, there are still other ones out there, but none that have the pull and popularity in the US.  So, what we see as "mixed martial arts" is a combination of techniques and tactics that have shown a high percentage of effectiveness in the UFC rule set for the way Americans think about it.  For other competitions, you may see a different mix of things based on those rules and what arts are popular where those competitions take place.

I have not seen anything in any of the "MMA" competitions that can't be found in a traditional art somewhere.


----------



## Tez3

punisher73 said:


> As always, there is nothing new under the sun.  From historical records, we know that man has had some sort of combat sport pretty much since he organized himself into cities.
> 
> As far as "mixed martial arts".  For most people, in the US, it is synonymous with the UFC.  Brazil had it's Vale Tudo competitions, but they were not widespread.  There were probably others as well all over the place.  The first few UFC's were very much a "style vs. style" approach.  As it gained in popularity, fighters started to cross train to win fights and fill the holes in their approach.  One of the first "big name" UFC fighters to gain popularity with this idea was Marco Ruas.  He called it "Ruas Vale Tudo" and gained immediate fan support for the first TKO of a fighter just using his Muay Thai roundhouse kick over and over to Paul Varlenes (sp?).  Fighters started to add BJJ to their mix and started to win, next phase was the wrestler with his ground and pound approach.  Then you had strikers who had great takedown defense and could keep it standing (Chuck Liddell) and brought back the striker as champions.
> 
> There were other competitions as well.  The other big giant known to viewers in the US was PrideFC in Japan.  You saw a different set of techniques being used there in comparision to the UFC because of a different rule set and a different fighting venue (boxing ring vs. caged octagon).  Fighters going from one to the other weren't always successful due to these reasons.
> 
> All of this is to say that the UFC has "mainstreamed" the rules used by most competitions now along with the overseeing athletic commissions to make it legal in the US.  Yes, there are still other ones out there, but none that have the pull and popularity in the US.  So, what we see as "mixed martial arts" is a combination of techniques and tactics that have shown a high percentage of effectiveness in the UFC rule set for the way Americans think about it.  For other competitions, you may see a different mix of things based on those rules and what arts are popular where those competitions take place.
> 
> I have not seen anything in any of the "MMA" competitions that can't be found in a traditional art somewhere.



I wish we could click on more than one thing for this post so instead  *'Thank You'*, *'I Agree'* and *'I very much like'* .


----------



## punisher73

drop bear said:


> the showtime kick.
> 
> (it is a made up name by the way. And probably a made up kick)



I remember reading about Funakoshi's training and he had a class of kicks that included using an object to jump off from to kick an opponent.  I think it was called a trinity kick, or something along those lines.  Specific might be different, but I remember doing the same stuff as a kid playing around.


----------



## K-man

punisher73 said:


> I remember reading about Funakoshi's training and he had a class of kicks that included using an object to jump off from to kick an opponent.  I think it was called a trinity kick, or something along those lines.  Specific might be different, but I remember doing the same stuff as a kid playing around.


There are a couple of jumping kicks in Goju Kata (Sanseru and Suparenpei), that could be used as a 'climbing' kick.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> but this is not a combination. It is a Frankenstein half round half front kick.


If you say so. Now, if you will excuse me, I have better things to do.


----------



## drop bear

punisher73 said:


> As always, there is nothing new under the sun.  From historical records, we know that man has had some sort of combat sport pretty much since he organized himself into cities.
> 
> As far as "mixed martial arts".  For most people, in the US, it is synonymous with the UFC.  Brazil had it's Vale Tudo competitions, but they were not widespread.  There were probably others as well all over the place.  The first few UFC's were very much a "style vs. style" approach.  As it gained in popularity, fighters started to cross train to win fights and fill the holes in their approach.  One of the first "big name" UFC fighters to gain popularity with this idea was Marco Ruas.  He called it "Ruas Vale Tudo" and gained immediate fan support for the first TKO of a fighter just using his Muay Thai roundhouse kick over and over to Paul Varlenes (sp?).  Fighters started to add BJJ to their mix and started to win, next phase was the wrestler with his ground and pound approach.  Then you had strikers who had great takedown defense and could keep it standing (Chuck Liddell) and brought back the striker as champions.
> 
> There were other competitions as well.  The other big giant known to viewers in the US was PrideFC in Japan.  You saw a different set of techniques being used there in comparision to the UFC because of a different rule set and a different fighting venue (boxing ring vs. caged octagon).  Fighters going from one to the other weren't always successful due to these reasons.
> 
> All of this is to say that the UFC has "mainstreamed" the rules used by most competitions now along with the overseeing athletic commissions to make it legal in the US.  Yes, there are still other ones out there, but none that have the pull and popularity in the US.  So, what we see as "mixed martial arts" is a combination of techniques and tactics that have shown a high percentage of effectiveness in the UFC rule set for the way Americans think about it.  For other competitions, you may see a different mix of things based on those rules and what arts are popular where those competitions take place.
> 
> I have not seen anything in any of the "MMA" competitions that can't be found in a traditional art somewhere.



there is but it is subtle. The wall tactics are probably new. Or at least more developed than a martial arts has looked at before. 
 i don't know anyone else who does that.

there is a guard passing strike series that is tactics i haven't encountered either.

but i don't know if i completely agree with the idea that there is nothing new under the sun. I doubt we would consider tkd as Korean karate. Karate as Japanese kung fu.

a martial art is generally more than the sum of its parts.


----------



## Buka

Maybe William Shakespeare's line, "_A rose by any other name would smell as sweet_" is true, and applicable today. 

Who knew?


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> This is a very strange thread. So for example, when I go back to Wing Chun and probably in six months or so, if I added a knee practising Chi Sau, would that be in affect be making things up. Sorry I just fail to see that, surely the knee is a add on and has no tangible affect on Wing Chun? Surely if MMA was making things up as it goes along, where is the coherence in that. Someone tries a new move been made up, a kick to the neck for example would likely paralyse. Sorry, I just don't get it.
> 
> A Martial Art is based on coherence honed by generations, making something up on the fly is all well and good, but has to based on coherence of whatever art you do. The sandbox is simply not that vast. Is MMA not made up of Boxers, Wrestlers and Grappler's, what new move made up could possibly be safe on the fly. Rambling over, going to go and be confused.com elsewhere.



concepts. A good fighter understands the principles and can apply that. (not all the time mind you)

so i may not know an arm bar from a position but i know which way it bends and so can make up an arm bar to suit.

i train with a guy who is notorious for just making stuff up. Sometimes it even works.


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> Maybe William Shakespeare's line, "_A rose by any other name would smell as sweet_" is true, and applicable today.
> 
> Who knew?



yes.

same thing in hip hop form.






i just like the song.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> concepts. A good fighter understands the principles and can apply that. (not all the time mind you)
> 
> so i may not know an arm bar from a position but i know which way it bends and so can make up an arm bar to suit.
> 
> i train with a guy who is notorious for just making stuff up. Sometimes it even works.



Suppose it would be 50/50 on whether something made up works or not. The again at some point, all MA would have been considered made up in its infancy.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Suppose it would be 50/50 on whether something made up works or not. The again at some point, all MA would have been considered made up in its infancy.



not so much 50/50 if the guy making it up knows the structure he is playing around with.

like jazz


----------



## RTKDCMB

K-man said:


> And who in the hell is 'Lord Sugar'?
> View attachment 19120
> 
> ?????


And who the hell cares?


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> not so much 50/50 if the guy making it up knows the structure he is playing around with.
> 
> like jazz



Dangerous though. I saw a vid yesterday through Facebook. The Jiu Jitsu society posted a bout where one of the fighters refused to submit. He had his arm broken. In this case, it was on him. But I imagine some nasty injuries resulting from a personal structure though. A certain move perhaps may have a higher percentage of working, I bet though that would diminish if untested outside of the cage.


----------



## Transk53

RTKDCMB said:


> And who the hell cares?



A very annoying person. Hosts the TV show "The Apprentice" He also started "Amstrad" back in the day.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> yes.
> 
> same thing in hip hop form.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i just like the song.



Cool choonage man


----------



## Tez3

RTKDCMB said:


> And who the hell cares?



All the children in the Great Ormand Street Hospital do because he pours money into it. And because he believes actions speak louder than words so how about drop bear posts up videos of his MMA fights as well as those of him training. At the very least he should post up his pro fight record.


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> Great Ormand Street Hospital



That is good then. Was my second home once.


----------



## punisher73

drop bear said:


> there is but it is subtle. The wall tactics are probably new. Or at least more developed than a martial arts has looked at before.
> i don't know anyone else who does that.
> 
> there is a guard passing strike series that is tactics i haven't encountered either.
> 
> but i don't know if i completely agree with the idea that there is nothing new under the sun. I doubt we would consider tkd as Korean karate. Karate as Japanese kung fu.
> 
> a martial art is generally more than the sum of its parts.



Again, you state that it is things YOU haven't encountered before.

When we were kids, we jumped off things and kicked at each other playing "karate".  I'm sure many many others before have done the same thing.  If someone taught that kick in a "traditional karate school" everyone would have said how unrealistic it was and how you couldn't use that in MMA or a "real fight". 

As to the subtle differences between styles.  There are only so many ways that the body can move.  A right cross from boxing is the same idea as the reverse punch from karate and kung fu, only minor differences in expression.  

Yes, things are added or refined but they are variations on a theme and not something brand new.  There are only so many ways to choke/twist/crank/lock/throw/strike a body.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Dangerous though. I saw a vid yesterday through Facebook. The Jiu Jitsu society posted a bout where one of the fighters refused to submit. He had his arm broken. In this case, it was on him. But I imagine some nasty injuries resulting from a personal structure though. A certain move perhaps may have a higher percentage of working, I bet though that would diminish if untested outside of the cage.



don't start getting all sport on me. You will never be cool that way.


----------



## drop bear

punisher73 said:


> Again, you state that it is things YOU haven't encountered before.
> 
> When we were kids, we jumped off things and kicked at each other playing "karate".  I'm sure many many others before have done the same thing.  If someone taught that kick in a "traditional karate school" everyone would have said how unrealistic it was and how you couldn't use that in MMA or a "real fight".
> 
> As to the subtle differences between styles.  There are only so many ways that the body can move.  A right cross from boxing is the same idea as the reverse punch from karate and kung fu, only minor differences in expression.
> 
> Yes, things are added or refined but they are variations on a theme and not something brand new.  There are only so many ways to choke/twist/crank/lock/throw/strike a body.



so you would be able to find another style that has comprehensive tactics for pinning someone against a cage.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> All the children in the Great Ormand Street Hospital do because he pours money into it. And because he believes actions speak louder than words so how about drop bear posts up videos of his MMA fights as well as those of him training. At the very least he should post up his pro fight record.



lol.

i do mma for the street. And like everybody else who does street i don't need videos.

i am sure this has already been discussed. There is a thing called anecdotal proof and being your own external source.


----------



## Tez3

MMA 'for the street' oh my days, now I've heard everything.


----------



## Steve

For my money, MMA plus situational awareness and a good attitude is a pretty solid combination for self defense.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> MMA 'for the street' oh my days, now I've heard everything.



it is apparently the same concept Geoff Thompson used. If Wikipedia is correct.

which i accept it may not be.


----------



## Tez3

Ever trained with Geoff?


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Ever trained with Geoff?



nope.




just going of wiki. And videos of things like animal day.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> don't start getting all sport on me. You will never be cool that way.



I'm not all sport on you . Guess I should have said "tested in the cage"


----------



## Tez3

http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-martial-arts-geoff_thompson.htm
"Part of Geoff’s philosophy is that once you begin to let go of the need to be physical and start developing your communication skills, you then realize that most things aren’t personal. He suggests that if you can communicate with people, you can kill off all your enemies by making friends of them. Geoff also acknowledges that it’s not an easy thing to do, but it is something he believes we should all be aiming to accomplish.
"Don Draeger said we should be so good at what we do, so powerful and potent, that we can walk away from trouble. Don is someone I really admire in the martial arts. The martial artists I respect most are the ones who have developed their physical ability, and have also developed a polarity to balance it – they’re very gentle but very firm. They’re not shouting about how good they are or challenging people. They’ve found some kind of peace within themselves. That’s a true martial artist."
Boldly, Thompson suggests that kickers and grapplers will not last on the street if they can’t punch. Although Geoff acknowledges that he loves grappling, and he has great admiration for grapplers, *he believes that a street fight is the last place to be for the grappler*, because fights are very rarely one on one. He says that if a fight was one on one, then he would back the grappler, _but he feels that scenario is indeed a rare occurrence._
"In a real situation, what you need is something clinical, something quick and something pre-emptive. And it’s always the hands that are closest to the target, and you can drive your whole body weight through it. You can finish someone with one shot, which leaves your hands free to deal with the second assailant."


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> I'm not all sport on you . Guess I should have said "tested in the cage"



testing things in a cage is just a gateway drug to thinking that sort of stuff will work on the street. When we all know a technique is more effective due to its inability to be tested.

does a kick to the knee work in the cage? Well ok yes. But it doesn't break a guys leg like it would in the street.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-martial-arts-geoff_thompson.htm
> "Part of Geoff’s philosophy is that once you begin to let go of the need to be physical and start developing your communication skills, you then realize that most things aren’t personal. He suggests that if you can communicate with people, you can kill off all your enemies by making friends of them. Geoff also acknowledges that it’s not an easy thing to do, but it is something he believes we should all be aiming to accomplish.
> "Don Draeger said we should be so good at what we do, so powerful and potent, that we can walk away from trouble. Don is someone I really admire in the martial arts. The martial artists I respect most are the ones who have developed their physical ability, and have also developed a polarity to balance it – they’re very gentle but very firm. They’re not shouting about how good they are or challenging people. They’ve found some kind of peace within themselves. That’s a true martial artist."
> Boldly, Thompson suggests that kickers and grapplers will not last on the street if they can’t punch. Although Geoff acknowledges that he loves grappling, and he has great admiration for grapplers, *he believes that a street fight is the last place to be for the grappler*, because fights are very rarely one on one. He says that if a fight was one on one, then he would back the grappler, _but he feels that scenario is indeed a rare occurrence._
> "In a real situation, what you need is something clinical, something quick and something pre-emptive. And it’s always the hands that are closest to the target, and you can drive your whole body weight through it. You can finish someone with one shot, which leaves your hands free to deal with the second assailant."



how does mma prevent me from doing any of that?


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> For my money, MMA plus situational awareness and a *good attitude* is a pretty solid combination for self defense.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



Just curious Steve, what do you mean with a good attitude with SD?


----------



## Steve

Transk53 said:


> Just curious Steve, what do you mean with a good attitude with SD?


I mean someone who isn't looking for a fight or acting in a way that causes people around him to get worked up.   

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## K-man

Tez3 said:


> Ever trained with Geoff?


What would he know? 

Compared to some around here!


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> testing things in a cage is just a gateway drug to thinking that sort of stuff will work on the street. When we all know a technique is more effective due to its inability to be tested.
> 
> does a kick to the knee work in the cage? Well ok yes. But it doesn't break a guys leg like it would in the street.



Yeah okay, but I think a person would be hard pressed to do a leg breaker on the streets in terms of a technique. A stamp while their on the deck sure, but executing that I think would be somewhat telegraphed. Better off smashing the knee.


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> I mean someone who isn't looking for a fight or acting in a way that causes people around him to get worked up.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



Ah okay. Thanks


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Ever trained with Geoff?



I have trained with rob gruifrida. Who is one of the most knowledgeable martial arts instructions i have ever met.

but is sadly underrated.


----------



## Steve

Transk53 said:


> Yeah okay, but I think a person would be hard pressed to do a leg breaker on the streets in terms of a technique. A stamp while their on the deck sure, but executing that I think would be somewhat telegraphed. Better off smashing the knee.


Drop bear is having some fun.  I think he's having a go at the idea that a technique that is untested can be more effective than a technique that is tested.   I personally agree in that there are two primary ingredients.  One is that the technique must be sound.   The other is that you (the actual person) must be able to competently execute the technique,  

The first is independent of the student.   The technique is or is not an effective technique.

The second is completely dependent upon the training model.   If you train good technique in an ineffective manner, you will not be able to execute the technique when you need to.  

I think this is where the conversation breaks down.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> Drop bear is having some fun.  I think he's having a go at the idea that a technique that is untested can be more effective than a technique that is tested.   I personally agree in that there are two primary ingredients.  One is that the technique must be sound.   The other is that you (the actual person) must be able to competently execute the technique,
> 
> The first is independent of the student.   The technique is or is not an effective technique.
> 
> The second is completely dependent upon the training model.   If you train good technique in an ineffective manner, you will not be able to execute the technique when you need to.
> 
> I think this is where the conversation breaks down.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



the thing is there is nothing stopping people training their street stuff with resistance for pretty much the most part. The cage as a laboratory is a good description.


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Drop bear is having some fun.  I think he's having a go at the idea that a technique that is untested can be more effective than a technique that is tested.   I personally agree in that there are two primary ingredients.  One is that the technique must be sound.   The other is that you (the actual person) must be able to competently execute the technique,
> 
> The first is independent of the student.   The technique is or is not an effective technique.
> 
> The second is completely dependent upon the training model.   If you train good technique in an ineffective manner, you will not be able to execute the technique when you need to.
> 
> I think this is where the conversation breaks down.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



It is good to band things around, even if people do think it is ludicrous to suggest certain things. As long as it is not a proclamation that something is, no harm to have a bit of banter.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> how does mma prevent me from doing any of that?



Not just MMA, but 'street' MMA lol. You said that's what Geoff does, but if he believes in not grappling it's not going to be 'MMA' is it lol.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Not just MMA, but 'street' MMA lol. You said that's what Geoff does, but if he believes in not grappling it's not going to be 'MMA' is it lol.



so he does judo why?


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> so he does judo why?




Why don't you read the article and see what he says?
Here's another.  8216 Does Self Defense Work 8217 by Geoff Thompson Part 1 4 HIS DARK SIDE


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Why don't you read the article and see what he says?
> Here's another.  8216 Does Self Defense Work 8217 by Geoff Thompson Part 1 4 HIS DARK SIDE



didn't seem to want to load.

mabye if you explain it in your own words


----------



## Transk53

Clicky


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> MMA 'for the street' oh my days, now I've heard everything.



It's hardly a novel idea.

I don't compete in MMA, but when I drop in on our gyms MMA classes, I do it to sharpen my combative/self-defense skills.

Burt Richardson's take on JKD is essentially MMA for the streets.

We had a member join recently who just started training at a gym where only a minority of the students compete and the rest do it for self-defense or exercise.

Drop bear has mentioned multiple times that he doesn't train for competition.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> didn't seem to want to load.
> 
> mabye if you explain it in your own words




The bit about Judo etc is on the original link I put up, that last was another bit for you not to read and ask questions about.


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> It's hardly a novel idea.
> 
> I don't compete in MMA, but when I drop in on our gyms MMA classes, I do it to sharpen my combative/self-defense skills.
> 
> Burt Richardson's take on JKD is essentially MMA for the streets.
> 
> We had a member join recently who just started training at a gym where only a minority of the students compete and the rest do it for self-defense or exercise.
> 
> Drop bear has mentioned multiple times that he doesn't train for competition.



I agree with Geoff Thompson about martial arts, self defence and sports styles. 'Street' MMA is not what he teaches however drop bear might wish to be associated with it.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> I agree with Geoff Thompson about martial arts, self defence and sports styles. 'Street' MMA is not what he teaches however drop bear might wish to be associated with it.



i haven't trained with Geoff Thompson. I do agree that a system has to be trained with resistance.

mma if made up from the crucible of resistance.


----------



## Hanzou

Transk53 said:


> Clicky



Well, he's clearly trying to sell some DVDs with that tripe.


----------



## punisher73

drop bear said:


> so you would be able to find another style that has comprehensive tactics for pinning someone against a cage.



So, now we are changing the definition to "comprehensive tactics" as opposed to the previous argument that the diverse set of tactics can be found in already established styles.

Yes, there are tactics found in various styles working with "boundaries".  Wrestlers will work towards getting out of bounds to break the action, they will also work to getting it into the middle to keep the action going.  Boxers are well known for working the corners and ropes, both escaping and placing an opponent.

I have read many other traditional arts also putting students up against the wall both standing and from the ground to work to get back up and escape.

Growing up, saw fights happen where people both used the fence/wall/lockers to hold onto and stomp a person as well as using to hold onto to try and get back up.  Also, pushing them into the wall etc. to pound on them.

Again, these tactics aren't "new".  There is nothing magical about a fence that people haven't thought about before and practiced.  Does MMA have a "one stop shoppping" method for many of these tactics because they are applicable to their rules?  Yes!  But, go back to PrideFC and it's use of "MMA" and you won't find a single person training to hold someone up against a fence.  Why?  Their rules and venue didn't have it.  Just like if you look at UFC fighters, you won't find a single person training to stomp kick a downed opponent in the cage.  Why?  Their rules don't allow it.


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Well, he's clearly trying to sell some DVDs with that tripe.



Gosh your training and experience must be sooo much better than Geoffs, I mean what on earth would he know eh.


----------



## drop bear

punisher73 said:


> So, now we are changing the definition to "comprehensive tactics" as opposed to the previous argument that the diverse set of tactics can be found in already established styles.
> 
> Yes, there are tactics found in various styles working with "boundaries".  Wrestlers will work towards getting out of bounds to break the action, they will also work to getting it into the middle to keep the action going.  Boxers are well known for working the corners and ropes, both escaping and placing an opponent.
> 
> I have read many other traditional arts also putting students up against the wall both standing and from the ground to work to get back up and escape.
> 
> Growing up, saw fights happen where people both used the fence/wall/lockers to hold onto and stomp a person as well as using to hold onto to try and get back up.  Also, pushing them into the wall etc. to pound on them.
> 
> Again, these tactics aren't "new".  There is nothing magical about a fence that people haven't thought about before and practiced.  Does MMA have a "one stop shoppping" method for many of these tactics because they are applicable to their rules?  Yes!  But, go back to PrideFC and it's use of "MMA" and you won't find a single person training to hold someone up against a fence.  Why?  Their rules and venue didn't have it.  Just like if you look at UFC fighters, you won't find a single person training to stomp kick a downed opponent in the cage.  Why?  Their rules don't allow it.



so you are suggesting the martial art is made up to suit the competition.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> Gosh your training and experience must be sooo much better than Geoffs, I mean what on earth would he know eh.



Sorry if I'm not willing to buy into the notion that "everything sucks except my system of self defense that you can learn for the low price of $150.00".


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Sorry if I'm not willing to buy into the notion that everything sucks except my system of self defense that you can learn for the low price of $150.00



LOL, you don't know who he is do you? Nor do you know anything about how Geoff thinks about martial arts which is a shame because he's a keen grappler, loves his Judo and doesn't have a system of self defence.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> LOL, you don't know who he is do you? Nor do you know anything about how Geoff thinks about martial arts which is a shame because he's a keen grappler, loves his Judo and doesn't have a system of self defence.



Really? That's not how he's pushing his merchandise;

Geoff Thompson.com DVD MA and SD

This one's a real gem;

Dead Or Alive The Choice Is Yours The Definitive Self-Protection Handbook Geoff Thompson 9780873649148 Amazon.com Books

The choice is mine eh?


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Really? That's not how he's pushing his merchandise;
> 
> Geoff Thompson.com DVD MA and SD




You still don't know who he is though or how he thinks about martial arts and self defence. You seem quite happy with other peoples DVDs as long as they are BJJ ones, even belt gradings online as I remember.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> You still don't know who he is though or how he thinks about martial arts and self defence. You seem quite happy with other peoples DVDs as long as they are BJJ ones, even belt gradings online as I remember.



he didn't like the online belt grading's


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> You still don't know who he is though or how he thinks about martial arts and self defence. You seem quite happy with other peoples DVDs as long as they are BJJ ones, even belt gradings online as I remember.



Did you read post #141? Basically everyone has it wrong and we need to learn Thompson's system or we're going to get rocked "in da streetz".

Typical RSBD nonsense. 

BTW, my thoughts on online Bjj belts;

Blue belt second stripe....Online MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> I agree with Geoff Thompson about martial arts, self defence and sports styles. 'Street' MMA is not what he teaches however drop bear might wish to be associated with it.



I'll take your word regarding what Mr. Thompson teaches, since I don't know the man (other than reading a few articles.) Regardless, there _are_ plenty of people out there who do train MMA as a foundation for street combative skills rather than for competition. _You_ may not favor it for that purpose. That's fine. There are plenty of martial arts schools of different styles marketing themselves as training for the street which_ I_ don't think do a good job for that purpose. Still, the idea of training MMA for street combative purposes isn't some crazy delusional idea that drop bear dreamed up all on his lonesome.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Not just MMA, but 'street' MMA lol. You said that's what Geoff does, but if he believes in not grappling it's not going to be 'MMA' is it lol.



i am lost. He is a keen grappler.but believes in not grappling and then sells videos on grappling. Like arm bar finishers and fighting off your back.


have i missed something?


----------



## Tez3

Oh of course it's nonsense isn't it, what on earth could anyone with forty odd years of experience on the doors, doing martial arts etc have to teach someone like you? why would anyone want to do RBSD when they could do....>drumroll<....... BJJ!.
How could we be all be so naïve, so gauche as to think we could ever defend ourselves without knowing BJJ? I'm about to faint with embarrassment at the fact I took up BJJ so late in life ( yes I do actually train BJJ, isn't that a shocker) and didn't do it when I was younger...oh wait it wasn't around when I was younger, no one trained it. That must be why it works so well, it's the new improved recipe martial arts! Wow.


----------



## Tez3

You're doing a good job boys...countdown to thread being locked starts now.......


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Oh of course it's nonsense isn't it, what on earth could anyone with forty odd years of experience on the doors, doing martial arts etc have to teach someone like you? why would anyone want to do RBSD when they could do....>drumroll<....... BJJ!.
> How could we be all be so naïve, so gauche as to think we could ever defend ourselves without knowing BJJ? I'm about to faint with embarrassment at the fact I took up BJJ so late in life ( yes I do actually train BJJ, isn't that a shocker) and didn't do it when I was younger...oh wait it wasn't around when I was younger, no one trained it. That must be why it works so well, it's the new improved recipe martial arts! Wow.



obviously not Geoff Thompson.

double leg over arm bar for self defence.






i think him and hazou would be friends. I would get shot if i jumped off mount so mabye he wouldn't like me so much.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Hanzou said:


> Did you read post #141? Basically everyone has it wrong and we need to learn Thompson's system or we're going to get rocked "in da streetz".



I just read through the linked article, and I don't think that's at all what he's saying.

He's saying that self-defense is 95% about avoiding confrontations and fights, and if a physical confrontation is inevitable, then a pre-emptive strike is the best option. I've got no problem with that.

Mind you, I'm not sure how that ties in with selling 4 DVDs worth of material on ground fighting for the streets with an emphasis on submissions rather than escaping to the feet. Maybe his position on the matter has evolved.


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> I just read through the linked article, and I don't think that's at all what he's saying.
> 
> He's saying that self-defense is 95% about avoiding confrontations and fights, and if a physical confrontation is inevitable, then a pre-emptive strike is the best option. I've got no problem with that.
> 
> Mind you, I'm not sure how that ties in with selling 4 DVDs worth of material on ground fighting for the streets with an emphasis on submissions rather than escaping to the feet. Maybe his position on the matter has evolved.



would we say escaping to the feet is a bit of a made up mma thing though?


----------



## Steve

I think this is an interesting discussion, and would hate to see the thread locked.  

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> I think this is an interesting discussion, and would hate to see the thread locked.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



it was worth it just find out Geoff Thompson loves the grapple.


----------



## Hanzou

Tony Dismukes said:


> I just read through the linked article, and I don't think that's at all what he's saying.
> 
> He's saying that self-defense is 95% about avoiding confrontations and fights, and if a physical confrontation is inevitable, then a pre-emptive strike is the best option. I've got no problem with that.



This part in particular in part one;




> When people talk martial art they think that they are automatically talking self defence but they are not. And when they talk self defence they believe that it is synonymous with martial art. Again, it is not. The two are very different, and they should be separated and taught as such.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with sport martial art, I love it, I am a big fan. And recreational training is better than no training at all. *But if people are ever to survive a violent encounter on the pavement arena, it is imperative that they learn to distinguish between the two.*
> 
> If you train twice a week in martial arts and think you are a serious player in self defence you’ll be in for a big shock when it kicks off outside the chippy on a Friday night.* If your penchant is for sport martial arts (and all that it entails) and you think it automatically translates to the street you too will be in big trouble when the pub-warrior breaks your rules and twats you while your un-zipped at the communal troth, or turns up for round two at your work or your home with a hammer and a bad intent.*
> 
> I must stipulate that I am not having a go at traditional arts, at sport or at the recreational player. I have a deep love for MA and for its practitioners but mine is the reality game so I have to honour the truth above all else. *And my truth is not based on theory of folk law or how well I can make it happen in the dojo, it is based on vast experience in all things real. I have hurt many people to acquire this information over a long period of time. I am not proud of that. But I do hope that the reader might learn from my knowledge, so that they do not become a victim of violent crime, or the next digit on a home office statistic about unsolicited assault. Because it is not bad technique or even bad teaching that gets people killed in street encounters, it is denial.*
> 
> People are in denial. With their art, with their ability and with reality its self.



All of that just rubbed me the wrong way. I abhor people using scare tactics to sell things.



> Mind you, I'm not sure how that ties in with selling 4 DVDs worth of material on ground fighting for the streets with an emphasis on submissions rather than escaping to the feet. Maybe his position on the matter has evolved.



Doubtful, since he has several books on ground grappling and submissions.


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> I just read through the linked article, and I don't think that's at all what he's saying.
> 
> He's saying that self-defense is 95% about avoiding confrontations and fights, and if a physical confrontation is inevitable, then a pre-emptive strike is the best option. I've got no problem with that.
> 
> Mind you, I'm not sure how that ties in with selling 4 DVDs worth of material on ground fighting for the streets with an emphasis on submissions rather than escaping to the feet. Maybe his position on the matter has evolved.



The DVDs are videos recording the course he ran not the course themselves. I don't know why your link comes up as 'ground fighting' because it isn't. The other videos on armlocks etc are used by MMA fighters, BJJers and Judoka. He doesn't just teach SD but has a keen interest in karate, MMA well most styles really. 

"So I wanted to capture the masterclass on film because I know that for every person that attended this course there were many who were too late, or simply didn't get to hear about it. If you are one of those people, or if you are simply someone that wants to get ahead of the crowd and excel, then this is a unique opportunity for you to learn what I taught on the masterclass at a fraction of the price of attending.
Through this professionally shot recording of the programme, you'll get a front row seat as the masterclass unfolds over a 6 month period. And because it's on DVD, you can watch again and again. I know you're going to pick up new things with each viewing."


----------



## Tez3

I'm betting that if I said Geoff was pants you'd have fawning been all over him like a tramp on chips. ROFLMAO


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> I'm betting that if I said Geoff was pants you'd have fawning been all over him like a tramp on chips. ROFLMAO



well i for one think he is pants.


?


----------



## punisher73

drop bear said:


> so you are suggesting the martial art is made up to suit the competition.



I'm not suggesting it, I am stating it and have stated it since my original post.  What we see as "mixed martial arts" is influenced by the UFC and it's rules.  If you watch the older Pride fights, you will see a difference in tactics/strategies and even techniques.  

Look at the evolution of what you see, there are many things that were labeled "ineffective" until you see a fighter use them, then suddenly more and more people start implementing it into their mix. Or with a rule change, you no longer see those techniques anymore (descending elbows, stomp kicks, small joint manipulations, etc.)

Even now, you will see fighters from other backgrounds bring certain elements into MMA that they can pull off.  Machida, for example, with his jumping double kick from Chinto Kata to KO Randy Couture, or David Lousiseu (sp?) with his spinning back kicks from TKD to KO opponents. So, the label "mixed martial arts" isn't an all encompassing label for a system of martial arts.  It is a label for tactics/strategies/techniques that a gym puts together that has the highest chance of success in a competition.  This differs from gym to gym.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Hanzou said:


> This part in particular in part one;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of that just rubbed me the wrong way. I abhor people using scare tactics to sell things.
> .



Eh, I've got no problem with it. As I've said in other threads, martial arts, fighting, and self-defense are three different things. They have areas of overlap, but they aren't the same.



Tez3 said:


> The DVDs are videos recording the course he ran not the course themselves. I don't know why your link comes up as 'ground fighting' because it isn't. The other videos on armlocks etc are used by MMA fighters, BJJers and Judoka. He doesn't just teach SD but has a keen interest in karate, MMA well most styles really.
> 
> "So I wanted to capture the masterclass on film because I know that for every person that attended this course there were many who were too late, or simply didn't get to hear about it. If you are one of those people, or if you are simply someone that wants to get ahead of the crowd and excel, then this is a unique opportunity for you to learn what I taught on the masterclass at a fraction of the price of attending.
> Through this professionally shot recording of the programme, you'll get a front row seat as the masterclass unfolds over a 6 month period. And because it's on DVD, you can watch again and again. I know you're going to pick up new things with each viewing."



Scroll down past the masterclass video.  He has a bunch of DVDs specifically oriented towards ground fighting, and if the descriptions are accurate they are oriented towards street combatives rather than sport. (Actually, I missed a bunch on first glance - he has many more than four of them.) If he intends those for sport competitors, he should probably make that more clear.



Tez3 said:


> I'm betting that if I said Geoff was pants you'd have fawning been all over him like a tramp on chips. ROFLMAO



Who is that aimed at? The only person who has said anything negative about Mr. Thompson is Hanzou. As far as I can tell, he's a very knowledgeable instructor.


----------



## ballen0351

Tez3 said:


> I'm betting that if I said Geoff was pants you'd have fawning been all over him like a tramp on chips. ROFLMAO


Speak English darn it lol


----------



## Tez3

ballen0351 said:


> Speak English darn it lol




LOl, tramp = hobo, chips = French fries. 'he's all over it like a hobo on French fries'

Tony, the remarks aren't aimed at you, Hanzou and drop bear have gone from thread to thread over a few different styles rubbishing them, the latest episode is in the WC part. Only those that agree with them aren't rubbished, question anything and you get the treatment as shown here.

The thing that makes me laugh though is on here drop bear is the one who brought Geoff into the 'conversation' when he said that he does MMA for the street just like Geoff Thompson. Now he thinks Geoff is pants. What can I say?


----------



## Steve

Is being pants good or bad?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> well i for one think he is pants.
> 
> 
> ?




Lol you brought him up saying you do MMA for the street as he does and now you think he's rubbish, oh dear.


----------



## Transk53

You know what. I would love to see HANZOU stand in front of Geoff. I bet he would drop down a little pissing himself silly. A doorman with 40 years on the door is commonly referred to as a Legend. Put this way, I for one would love to tap into knowledge base. Being an ex doorman, I can just see it!


----------



## ballen0351

Whats pants?


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> Tony, the remarks aren't aimed at you, Hanzou and drop bear have gone from thread to thread over a few different styles rubbishing them, the latest episode is in the WC part. Only those that agree with them aren't rubbished, question anything and you get the treatment as shown here.



For the record, inquiring why Wing Chun isn't well represented in MMA isn't rubbishing the style. However, that's another issue in another thread.

As for my opinion on Thompson, it's exactly that. It's an opinion I have for similar individuals who have the supposed answer for street survival. I will say that one great key to self defense that even folks like Thompson should utilize, is a slimmer waistline.


----------



## Tez3

ballen0351 said:


> Whats pants?




It means 'not good' as in rubbish lol.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> well i for one think he is pants.
> 
> 
> ?





drop bear said:


> well i for one think he is pants.
> 
> 
> ?



Dude. If you know of the door, then you are just being silly. You do know of the door, do you not?


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> For the record, inquiring why Wing Chun isn't well represented in MMA isn't rubbishing the style. However, that's another issue in another thread.
> 
> As for my opinion on Thompson, it's exactly that. It's an opinion I have for similar individuals who have the supposed answer for street survival. I will say that one great key to self defense that even folks like Thompson should utilize, is a slimmer waistline.




Miaow. Shall I fetch you a saucer of milk?


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> Miaow. Shall I fetch you a saucer of milk?


Tez, posts like this will surely get the thread locked.  If you have a problem with a particular poster, use the ignore feature.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hanzou

Transk53 said:


> You know what. I would love to see HANZOU stand in front of Geoff. I bet he would drop down a little pissing himself silly. A doorman with 40 years on the door is commonly referred to as a Legend. Put this way, I for one would love to tap into knowledge base. Being an ex doorman, I can just see it!





ballen0351 said:


> Such a brave man behind the keys



LoL! Look, I'm sure Thompson is an excellent martial artist and instructor. I'm just not buying what he's selling. Sorry if that offends you so much.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> . I will say that one great key to self defense that even folks like Thompson should utilize, is a slimmer waistline.


No Steve its BS like this that will get the thread locked


----------



## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> For the record, inquiring why Wing Chun isn't well represented in MMA isn't rubbishing the style. However, that's another issue in another thread.
> 
> As for my opinion on Thompson, it's exactly that. It's an opinion I have for similar individuals who have the supposed answer for street survival. I will say that one great key to self defense that even folks like Thompson should utilize, is a slimmer waistline.



Oh do shut up please??? That is just insulting keyboard warrior stuff. Who you to say that a slimmer waistline is required?


----------



## Steve

ballen0351 said:


> No Steve its BS like this that will get the thread locked


It's that,too.  The tit for tat.  If you think calling people cowards and liars is helping, you're mistaken, ballen. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ballen0351

Steve said:


> It's that,too.  The tit for tat.  If you think calling people cowards and liars is helping, you're mistaken, ballen.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Im not trying to help.  If I think thats is what they are I got no problem saying it.  If they dont like it they should stop acting that way


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> LoL! Look, I'm sure Thompson is an excellent martial artist and instructor. I'm just not buying what he's selling. Sorry if that offends you so much.




What's offensive is talking about someone you know nothing of, you could have just said 'look I don't know him so can't pass comment' or you could have said nothing at all instead of wading in to support your oppo.
( clock ticking down lock down)

You don't know him, fair one but I do and he is known to most martial artists in the UK and probably beyond. He really is a legendary doorman, in a city known for it's violence and in a time when things were certainly 'wilder' in the clubs, pubs and bars. He is also well spoken of as a 'hard man'   (not a word I particularly like )who can fight and look after himself  by people like Dave Courtney and Lenny McLean ( again two people I don't like though Dave can be charming).
You don't like his videos, fine, I'm sure he's not bothered, if he is that's his problem but making catty remarks is beneath you, it's childish.


----------



## Transk53

And for that matter, who are you discuss anything civilised, other than your own agenda. Anyway I'll stop now, don't want to actually start getting mouthy, you are boring anyway


----------



## K-man

What would a guy like this know about RBSD?



> Thompson began his martial arts training in the Eastern arts including karate, Aikido and Kung-Fu. However, during his time as a nightclub doorman, he found that what he had learned was inadequate for the reality of violence. Thompson came to realise that the techniques encouraged and practised in touch-contact and semi-contact martial arts were not always suitable for self-defence. Though he utilizes a small core of these techniques as part of his teachings, Thompson prefers more pragmatic full-contact martial arts and combat sports such as boxing, Muay Thai and wrestling (Greco-Roman, Judo, Jujutsu and Freestyle).
> 
> He holds the ABA Boxing Instructor certificate and high-level coaching awards for wrestling, as well as a 1st Dan in Judo and a 7th Dan in Shotokan Karate.
> 
> Geoff Thompson was also the first instructor to name and extensively teach "the fence", a revered technique in real-life defence involving keeping your hands in front of you in a non-threatening manner so as to protect yourself in case a situation escalates but without provoking violence.
> Geoff Thompson writer - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia



He lists his occupation as 'writer' and anyone on his mailing list would know that that is his true interest. It is a fact that writers do sell what they produce. How anyone can criticise someone for making money from their profession beggars belief.


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> And for that matter, who are you discuss anything civilised, other than your own agenda. Anyway I'll stop now, don't want to actually start getting mouthy, you are boring anyway




Down the pub then.....   Good thinking Batman.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> What's offensive is talking about someone you know nothing of, you could have just said 'look I don't know him so can't pass comment' or you could have said nothing at all instead of wading in to support your oppo.
> ( clock ticking down lock down)
> 
> You don't know him, fair one but I do and he is known to most martial artists in the UK and probably beyond. He really is a legendary doorman, in a city known for it's violence and in a time when things were certainly 'wilder' in the clubs, pubs and bars. He is also well spoken of as a 'hard man' who can fight and look after himself (not a word I particularly like) by people like Dave Courtney and Lenny McLean ( again two people I don't like though Dave can be charming).
> You don't like his videos, fine, I'm sure he's not bothered, if he is that's his problem but making catty remarks is beneath you, it's childish.



Except I wasn't insulting the man, I was criticizing his product. Clearly that criticism bothers you, but that's your issue, not mine. He's a public figure who makes a loving off of said public persona, and he's open for critique, that's just how it is. He makes claims, props up his expertise, he pushes merch, and he makes a living doing what he loves to do. I respect that, but he's not beyond reproach.


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> *Except I wasn't insulting the man*, I was criticizing his product. Clearly that criticism bothers you, but that's your issue, not mine. He's a public figure who makes a loving off of said public persona, and he's open for critique, that's just how it is. He makes claims, props up his expertise, he pushes merch, and he makes a living doing what he loves to do. I respect that, but he's not beyond reproach.



And the following is not an insult?



Hanzou said:


> As for my opinion on Thompson, it's exactly that. It's an opinion I have for similar individuals who have the supposed answer for street survival. *I will say that one great key to self defense that even folks like Thompson should utilize, is a slimmer waistline. *


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> Down the pub then.....   Good thinking Batman.



Jeez Louise, reading that rubbish actually induced an adrenaline rush. I don't know MA, I have tried many, that I readily admit. However, I am not going to let another be insulted, for where Geoff has got, only another doorman, or in you're case a doorwomen, would readily recognise. Thought drop bear was the same, obviously I was wrong. Shame, l'm usually pretty quick.


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> And the following is not an insult?



Nope, just an observation.


----------



## Transk53

H





Hanzou said:


> Except I wasn't insulting the man, I was criticizing his product. Clearly that criticism bothers you, but that's your issue, not mine. He's a public figure who makes a loving off of said public persona, and he's open for critique, that's just how it is. He makes claims, props up his expertise, he pushes merch, and he makes a living doing what he loves to do. I respect that, but he's not beyond reproach.



Hey you would do good to stop now. He is beyond reproach, he has earned that. Keep it coming, I feel the need to exercise my jaw muscles!!!


----------



## Transk53

Sorry Tez, quoted the wrong post mate


----------



## Steve

Guys, people who are in the public realm are subject to critique.  Geoff Thompson is no exception.   You guys seem to be taking this very personally.   Once again, if you have a problem with a particular poster, the ignore function is a terrific option.   Attacking this poster isn't okay and will get the thread locked.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Sorry Tez, quoted the wrong post mate




No worries, I would go down the pub though or have a cuppa, the thread will be locked as the others have been, the idea is to rile you up then plead innocence so do what Geoff would and say feck it and walk away. We know what we know and can smile that smile you have when you know.


----------



## Hanzou

Transk53 said:


> H
> Hey you would do good to stop now. He is beyond reproach, he has earned that.



No he hasn't. He's a SD instructor and a salesman, not a saint.

Hell, even saints aren't beyond reproach.


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> No worries, I would go down the pub though or have a cuppa, the thread will be locked as the others have been, the idea is to rile you up then plead innocence so do what Geoff would and say feck it and walk away. We know what we know and can smile that smile you have when you know.



Yeah I know, but for once I am pissed off. I am not that little twerp diss the fraternity. Steve is right, I am taking this personally, not as a ex doorman, but from the fact that HANSOU clearly said keep it civilised. A personal attack is not that. He lied, no courage to step up. Just my take!


----------



## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> No he hasn't. He's a SD instructor and a salesman, not a saint.
> 
> Hell, even saints aren't beyond reproach.



Well then welcome to the cauldron. Are you really sure you want to continue?


----------



## Transk53

ballen0351 said:


> No Steve its BS like this that will get the thread locked



I actually agree with you on this. Perhaps a first for me. Sorry.


----------



## ballen0351

@Steve 
It actually does. Mma is a sport. You can train in multiple arts and blend them together but Mma remains a sport.


I wanted to move this out of the WC thread since it has nothing to do with WC.

So Sat I used a reverse punch from Goju a wrist lock of Aikido, and an Arm bar from Judo on a suspect.  So because I was on the street its not MMA but had I done the same thing in front of a ref it is MMA?


----------



## Steve

Ballen, I would say it's not MMA, because mma is a sport.


----------



## ballen0351

Steve said:


> Ballen, I would say it's not MMA, because mma is a sport.


Ok


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Ballen, I would say it's not MMA, because mma is a sport.



How do you define that then?


----------



## Steve

sport... With a unified rule set.   boxing is a sport.  Must Thai is a sport, too.   San shou, mma.   These are all sports.   I'm not using the term in any particular manner.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Lol you brought him up saying you do MMA for the street as he does and now you think he's rubbish, oh dear.




i have absolutely no idea whether being pants is a good thing or a bad thing.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> i have absolutely no idea whether being pants is a good thing or a bad thing.


It's bad I had to ask also


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Dude. If you know of the door, then you are just being silly. You do know of the door, do you not?



damn. You have caught me out. I do not know the secret that is pants.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> I'm betting that if I said Geoff was pants you'd have fawning been all over him like a tramp on chips. ROFLMAO


What if he was a pair of boxer shorts?


----------



## Buka

ballen0351 said:


> So Sat I used a reverse punch from Goju a wrist lock of Aikido, and an Arm bar from Judo on a suspect.  So because I was on the street its not MMA but had I done the same thing in front of a ref it is MMA?



Nope. That's not MMA, brother. That's just what we sometimes have do. Nice job, bro! (stay safe, man)


----------



## Buka

Ever get in a discussion with someone who doesn't do, understand or like martial arts? It can be an exercise in patience because we know they have no idea about our world. And we know they ain't ever going to experience it. Not for love nor money.

And then there's folks like us. We should probably chill a bit. I mean, heck, I go to the dojo, you go to the dojo, sometimes we feel like demi-Gods and sometimes we wonder why the hell we bother. And more often than not - something hurts, or doesn't feel right afterwards, but we don't care (damn fools, all of us) because we just keep going. I don't think we have any choice in the matter. Because you _know_ you're hooked. (Oh, yes you are. Oh yes)

We should maybe take a deep breath and relax when we deal with each other. 
Just a thought.


----------



## ballen0351

Buka said:


> Nope. That's not MMA, brother. That's just what we sometimes have do. Nice job, bro! (stay safe, man)


The thing is the more I think about it.  All those things I used are found in all three of the styles I've trained.  The arm bar is the same I learned in Goju the same I learned in aikido and in judo.  The wrist lock I've practiced it in all 3 as well and even the punch.  So I'm not really sure where to "credit" the technique actually so ot looks like over the years it's all mashed up and mixed up anyway.  

And thanks that dude was a real peach.  Says he's going to follow me home and murder my wife and kids.  Little does he know my wife's gun is bigger then mine


----------



## Tez3

Like sex MMA is something the younger generations cannot imagine they haven't invented, that the older generations were doing it long before the young ones were even twinkles in their father's eyes.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Jeez Louise, reading that rubbish actually induced an adrenaline rush. I don't know MA, I have tried many, that I readily admit. However, I am not going to let another be insulted, for where Geoff has got, only another doorman, or in you're case a doorwomen, would readily recognise. Thought drop bear was the same, obviously I was wrong. Shame, l'm usually pretty quick.



lol. I have insulted plenty of doormen. Its a job. Not some sort of cult.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> lol. I have insulted plenty of doormen. Its a job. Not some sort of cult.



Have you insulted security officers and policemen as well? In jobs like these, here at least, we try to watch each others backs. We might not always manage it but we do try to get on with those in the same line of work because in the end you may just need one or the other to help get you out of a situation. When the policeman was killed in Liverpool this week it was the doormen who tried to save him, sadly though I think he was dead already from the blows to the head but they tried.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Have you insulted security officers and policemen as well? In jobs like these, here at least, we try to watch each others backs. We might not always manage it but we do try to get on with those in the same line of work because in the end you may just need one or the other to help get you out of a situation. When the policeman was killed in Liverpool this week it was the doormen who tried to save him, sadly though I think he was dead already from the blows to the head but they tried.



have you ever met an Australian?

if Geoff Thompson was getting bashed i would help the guy out. Doesn't mean I have to like his videos. Which are over priced for what you get.

i agree with his method but i get it cheaper and better.

if i wigged out at my door every time someone called me a nasty name. There would be no point me being there.

just for every one. The job is not all glamour and no heavy lifting.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> @Steve
> It actually does. Mma is a sport. You can train in multiple arts and blend them together but Mma remains a sport.
> 
> 
> I wanted to move this out of the WC thread since it has nothing to do with WC.
> 
> So Sat I used a reverse punch from Goju a wrist lock of Aikido, and an Arm bar from Judo on a suspect.  So because I was on the street its not MMA but had I done the same thing in front of a ref it is MMA?


in front of a ref it would be mma. On the street it would be  rbsd. Except you actually fought someone.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> have you ever met an Australian?
> 
> if Geoff Thompson was getting bashed i would help the guy out. Doesn't mean I have to like his videos. Which are over priced for what you get.
> 
> i agree with his method but i get it cheaper and better.
> 
> if i wigged out at my door every time someone called me a nasty name. There would be no point me being there.
> 
> just for every one. The job is not all glamour and no heavy lifting.




You don't get it do you? At all.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> You don't get it do you? At all.



nope. All sounds a little self entitled.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> nope. All sounds a little self entitled.




What sort of psychobabble is that? 'Self entitled lol, look, you post on here like Jack the lad, everything's a joke and it comes across like you are laughing at everyone. This isn't an 'attack' it's an observation. It's just such a shame. I rather wonder if you are sat with your phone being bored at work and just making these comments to amuse yourself.
Anyway I will leave you to it, you can consider you 'won' this thread.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> What sort of psychobabble is that? 'Self entitled lol, look, you post on here like Jack the lad, everything's a joke and it comes across like you are laughing at everyone. This isn't an 'attack' it's an observation. It's just such a shame. I rather wonder if you are sat with your phone being bored at work and just making these comments to amuse yourself.
> Anyway I will leave you to it, you can consider you 'won' this thread.



no i post out of rage and hatred.

of course i am amusing myself. If i wasn't i would be doing something else. 

The funny thing is when we get the English backpackers in they are surprised that they can actually talk to us. And we don't take our image so seriously. In turn they have a good time and tend to fight us less.

i finish the night amused. They finish the night amused everybody wins.

have you ever watched roadhouse. There is a good speech about bouncing but it has a bit of swearing so i am not sure if I can post it.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> no i post out of rage and hatred.
> 
> of course i am amusing myself. If i wasn't i would be doing something else.
> 
> The funny thing is when we get the English backpackers in they are surprised that they can actually talk to us. And we don't take our image so seriously. In turn they have a good time and tend to fight us less.
> 
> i finish the night amused. They finish the night amused everybody wins.
> 
> have you ever watched roadhouse. There is a good speech about bouncing but it has a bit of swearing so i am not sure if I can post it.




I meant you amuse yourself laughing at people on here.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> have you ever watched roadhouse. There is a good speech about bouncing but it has a bit of swearing so i am not sure if I can post it.


It goes; 'be polite , until its time to not be polite'. This is neither the time nor the place to not be polite, since we're all mature adults here right? .


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> in front of a ref it would be mma. On the street it would be  rbsd. Except you actually fought someone.


Ok  if thats the defenition we are going with thats fine.  I got no problem with it


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> no i post out of rage and hatred.
> 
> of course i am amusing myself. If i wasn't i would be doing something else.
> 
> The funny thing is when we get the English backpackers in they are surprised that they can actually talk to us. And we don't take our image so seriously. In turn they have a good time and tend to fight us less.
> 
> i finish the night amused. They finish the night amused everybody wins.
> 
> have you ever watched roadhouse. There is a good speech about bouncing but it has a bit of swearing so i am not sure if I can post it.


dont say bouncer people get mad


----------



## Transk53

ballen0351 said:


> dont say bouncer people get mad



Of course not, lunacy from the beginning lol


----------



## Tez3

Talking of lunacy...well loosely as the moon is out and it's clear, did anyone see the space station speeding across the sky? Thousands of British kids have been out as the adults have told them it's Father Christmas!

I know it's off topic but hell, space station or Father Christmas it's cool!


----------



## ballen0351

Tez3 said:


> Talking of lunacy...well loosely as the moon is out and it's clear, did anyone see the space station speeding across the sky? Thousands of British kids have been out as the adults have told them it's Father Christmas!
> 
> I know it's off topic but hell, space station or Father Christmas it's cool!


sadly its raining and cloudy here I cant see the sky but thats cool


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> Talking of lunacy...well loosely as the moon is out and it's clear, did anyone see the space station speeding across the sky? Thousands of British kids have been out as the adults have told them it's Father Christmas!
> 
> I know it's off topic but hell, space station or Father Christmas it's cool!



Yeah. Sorry for the confusion, I misfired a torpedo on the Enterprise.


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> It goes; 'be polite , until its time to not be polite'. This is neither the time nor the place to not be polite, since we're all mature adults here right? .



well it is more involved than that and the emphasis is on being nice and not getting personally invested in every comment that might upset you.

because we are adults.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> dont say bouncer people get mad




i work with some very emotional bouncers. I don't take personal offence. But i take professional offence.

and i think the difference there is i control the tool of taking offence rather than letting it take control of me.

you have to respect my boundaries because that is what i am put there to do. Not because I am sensitive.


----------



## Transk53

Emotionally sensitive no, but sensitive to danger, oh yes.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Emotionally sensitive no, but sensitive to danger, oh yes.



have you ever worked with someone that just gets offended all the time?

personally i think they become trouble magnets.


----------



## Transk53

Yep, me lol. Well seriously, not all the time. I just annoyed with the 15 minute brigade.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

When it comes to self-defense and personal protection we can all learn some thing from people like Geoff Thompson, Marc MacYoung, Rory Miller, etc.  We might not all agree on their approach all the time, message, etc. but there is solid information to be learned.  Can they be critiqued sure.  Should we as fellow martial practitioners also offer them some respect based on their dedication, efforts, etc.  I respect people who work hard to get good at their craft in all endeavors.  Let's try to be polite, respectful even if we critique some one.


----------



## Transk53

Brian R. VanCise said:


> When it comes to self-defense and personal protection we can all learn some thing from people like Geoff Thompson, Marc MacYoung, Rory Miller, etc.  We might not all agree on their approach all the time, message, etc. but there is solid information to be learned.  Can they be critiqued sure.  Should we as fellow martial practitioners also offer them some respect based on their dedication, efforts, etc.  I respect people who work hard to get good at their craft in all endeavors.  Let's try to be polite, respectful even if we critique some one.



Yeah I would agree with that. I am big enough to admit I have crossed the line. However, something ain't right around here at the moment. Too many argumentative and inciting comments. What's up with that?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

This is a discussion board and we do want discussion.  However, people need to talk, discuss within the rules in a friendly manner.  When people do not follow the rules they receive pm's, warning, infractions, etc  This happens though we do not discuss details regarding this as it is private between MartialTalk and the member.  Also threads are closed which no one wants.  Personally, if someone bothered me I would put them on ignore and or report posts that I felt broke the rules.  I personally have found that I enjoy MartialTalk the most when I am learning some thing and not involved in a heated discussion.


----------



## Transk53

Brian R. VanCise said:


> This is a discussion board and we do want discussion.  However, people need to talk, discuss within the rules in a friendly manner.  When people do not follow the rules they receive pm's, warning, infractions, etc  This happens though we do not discuss details regarding this as it is private between MartialTalk and the member.  Also threads are closed which no one wants.  Personally, if someone bothered me I would put them on ignore and or report posts that I felt broke the rules.  I personally have found that I enjoy MartialTalk the most when I am learning some thing and not involved in a heated discussion.



Of course Brian you are correct. However, something still ain't right around here, however much Steve agrees. I should not get an infraction for calling someone a twat, that is not even a swear word!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I am not going to go into discussing MartialTalk polices in depth on this thread as that is not what the OP started it for.   You are welcome to conversation me and we can talk via pm.

In the meantime back to the OP regarding mma being a made up martial art.

Keep everything polite folks.  Thanks it is appreciated!


----------



## Transk53

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I am not going to go into discussing MartialTalk polices in depth on this thread as that is not what the OP started it for.   You are welcome to conversation me and we can talk via pm.
> 
> In the meantime back to the OP regarding mma being a made up martial art.
> 
> Keep everything polite folks.  Thanks it is appreciated!



Yeah would do, but no point, minds seem have been made up. Thanks for the reply though


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Yes, minds are made up for polite discussion on the martial arts with no individual, style, system being given any personal preference.

As always Transk53, I and many others enjoy your thoughts here on MartialTalk and look forward to hearing more of them.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Back to the OP!!!


----------



## Transk53

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yes, minds are made up for polite discussion on the martial arts with no individual, style, system being given any personal preference.
> 
> As always Transk53, I and many others enjoy your thoughts here on MartialTalk and look forward to hearing more of them.



Yeah sure. Perhaps I may post something of relevance some day!


----------



## Steve

Transk53 said:


> Of course Brian you are correct. However, something still ain't right around here, however much Steve agrees. I should not get an infraction for calling someone a twat, that is not even a swear word!


I think you should consider looking that word up on urban dictionary.   I think it's far more offensive in the USA than in the uk.   It's a pretty vile word around here.


----------



## Transk53

Then that takes it out of context. I don't care if it is offensive to you. I am a Brit, for us that means idiot to us! Live with it!


----------



## Steve

Whoa, transk53, that's a peculiar reaction.  Where is this aggressiveness coming from?


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Whoa, transk53, that's a peculiar reaction.  Where is this aggressiveness coming from?



Yeah sorry Steve, I looked at you as being an arsehole, but just the Whisky talking. Yes I stupidly used Christmas day as a excuse, hey as I had got inebriated more than I realised, I got a little moronic in my behaviour. Rest assured, any issues, it would be face to face, not behind a keyboard


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> I think you should consider looking that word up on urban dictionary.   I think it's far more offensive in the USA than in the uk.   It's a pretty vile word around here.



same meaning here.


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Yeah sorry Steve, I looked at you as being an arsehole, but just the Whisky talking. Yes I stupidly used Christmas day as a excuse, hey as I had got inebriated more than I realised, I got a little moronic in my behaviour. Rest assured, any issues, it would be face to face, not behind a keyboard



and the language filter will only pick up the American spelling.

(do we have a language filter?)


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## Transk53

Yeah, sorry. Thought the language filter would have picked that! I keep forgetting that what we Brits use in a lesser fashion as it were, can be real offensive. Again sorry guys and girls.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> (do we have a language filter?)


Everyone should have a language filter.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Just an FYI, we do have a language filter, but it does require that each word to be blocked be entered into the filters file.
On the other hand, I think we're all grown up enough to use our OWN language filters, which would make the software irrelevent.


----------



## Tez3

I would point out that the word 'twat' in the UK is not a swear word however it's perceived elsewhere, David Cameron, the Prime Minister uses it in speeches, the last time he was talking  about twitter and the poet Robert Browning uses it in one of his poems 'Pippa Passes'. However it or how any word is perceived depends on location but you can't blame someone for using a non swear word where he is and it turns out to be a swear/dirty word somewhere else. Look at 'fanny bags' for instance rude here not rude in the US. Perhaps a sticky with words that shouldn't be used, not swear words but words perceived by different people to be, the word 'feck' is used here a lot, it may sound like a swear word but certainly isn't, it's an 'Irishism' one of many words that are cleverly changed for everyday use, it's heard being used by politicians, public figures etc and even royalty here in public. It's an acceptable word here so as I said perhaps a sticky with unacceptable words to all continents.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> I would point out that the word 'twat' in the UK is not a swear word however it's perceived elsewhere, David Cameron, the Prime Minister uses it in speeches, the last time he was talking  about twitter and the poet Robert Browning uses it in one of his poems 'Pippa Passes'. However it or how any word is perceived depends on location but you can't blame someone for using a non swear word where he is and it turns out to be a swear/dirty word somewhere else. Look at 'fanny bags' for instance rude here not rude in the US. Perhaps a sticky with words that shouldn't be used, not swear words but words perceived by different people to be, the word 'feck' is used here a lot, it may sound like a swear word but certainly isn't, it's an 'Irishism' one of many words that are cleverly changed for everyday use, it's heard being used by politicians, public figures etc and even royalty here in public. It's an acceptable word here so as I said perhaps a sticky with unacceptable words to all continents.


Over here in Australia the word 'twat' is the name of a certain lady part with the *a* in twat making an *o* sound. That is probably why some people may take offense to it


----------



## Tez3

RTKDCMB said:


> Over here in Australia the word 'twat' is the name of a certain lady part with the *a* in twat making an *o* sound. That is probably why some people may take offense to it



Indeed, I think I heard that when going to see Australian cricket team versus England , and of course the word 'fanny' here has the same meaning of being a certain lady part. Cultural differences should be taken into account before shouting the odds about words, I've seen Americans call someone a 'berk' not realising I imagine it's Cockney rhyming slang for Berkshire Hunt, I don't need to spell that out. This is why I think a list of words that have cultural differences would be useful.


----------



## Transk53

Well I would that it is now clear that I didn't mean in that context. A insult for sure, but I would not use sexually sounding language. And yes, that also has the same meaning, or at least one of them here also.


----------



## Mephisto

Steve said:


> I think you should consider looking that word up on urban dictionary.   I think it's far more offensive in the USA than in the uk.   It's a pretty vile word around here.



Now tbat we've completely left the op I'll chime in. My "tween" daughter watches Dr Who and a bunch of other British shows, she blurted out the word twat in a restaurant recently. I laughed hysterically, (knowing my daughter doesn't curse,at least around us) that she didn't know the word was very bad. She explained she heard it on a show and I had to explain how bad it is over here in the US. I think the list of words like this is very small, now we're all educated. No need for a special dictionary, but that could be fun if only to increase my vocabary of swear words. Name calling swear word or not is pointless (except for comedy  and only lowers the value of discussion. Ignorance is no excuse, as a friendly discussion forum name calling and insults are unacceptable Transk53 should learn and move on. When you can see an argument isn't going anywhere move on, I've done it before here. Believe it it not I used to think very differently about martial arts and Internet discussion and reading opinions contrary to mine actually changed my views. A lesser man might have moved on and continued in his blind beliefs, I talked and discussed and eventually things changed for me. I can only hope that others will at least consider differing opinions and seek logical reasons as to why they are wrong. Question everything you are told and "know" with good reason.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> I would point out that the word 'twat' in the UK is not a swear word however it's perceived elsewhere, David Cameron, the Prime Minister uses it in speeches, the last time he was talking  about twitter and the poet Robert Browning uses it in one of his poems 'Pippa Passes'. However it or how any word is perceived depends on location but you can't blame someone for using a non swear word where he is and it turns out to be a swear/dirty word somewhere else. Look at 'fanny bags' for instance rude here not rude in the US. Perhaps a sticky with words that shouldn't be used, not swear words but words perceived by different people to be, the word 'feck' is used here a lot, it may sound like a swear word but certainly isn't, it's an 'Irishism' one of many words that are cleverly changed for everyday use, it's heard being used by politicians, public figures etc and even royalty here in public. It's an acceptable word here so as I said perhaps a sticky with unacceptable words to all continents.



lol. Be a funny list.


----------



## drop bear

By the way fanny and twat have the same meaning here.


----------



## Buka

Twat.

Dear, God, that looks/sounds so wrong. Made me blush, it did!


----------



## Steve

I wonder what you guys would think about the term "fanny pack."

Here in the USA, it's a pouch you can wear that clips around your waist.  

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> I wonder what you guys would think about the term "fanny pack."
> 
> Here in the USA, it's a pouch you can wear that clips around your waist.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



and wear around your front so it makes sense. We swear alot as a culture though.


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> I wonder what you guys would think about the term "fanny pack."
> 
> Here in the USA, it's a pouch you can wear that clips around your waist.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You are safe with that one . Think we termed them "bum bags" over here.


----------



## Reeksta

As a Brit, when you hear Americans talk about a lady having a "big fanny" it's genuinely quite shocking until you realise they just mean bum lol


----------



## Dr.Smith

Tez3 said:


> There's is no confusion. MMA is what it says it is *MIXED MARTIAL ARTS*. Note the word *ARTS*, it is not *AN *art adapting to anything, it is techniques from many styles being used together in on competition. The arts are ones we all know and love therefore there aren't 'new made up' techniques just the adapting of existing techniques for a specific competition.
> It is becoming a style with it's amalgamating of techniques, as people train MMA as opposed to single styles. Those of us who were early into MMA didn't have the luxury of being able to train MMA as an entity, we had trained single styles and had to meld them together ourselves.
> No, we don't make stuff up as we go along, what we do is find techniques we like for our size, weight, build etc and adapt them to suit us, we discard those techniques we find don't work for us BUT they remain techniques that you will find in martial arts so they will retain the names they had then. An 'abracadabra' kick is a front kick, it will always be a front kick that someone has_ slightly _adapted to make it work better for him, now most people have a kick they think is 'magic' for them, it doesn't mean we all now call that kick 'the magic kick'!
> 
> There is nothing new under the sun, the times we've had someone come in and claim they have found a 'new' technique only for them to show us and we say yeah, it's been done before, it may differ slightly but it's not new. there are only so many ways you can actually kcik punch and even grapple. yes people do things a bit different from each other but the techniques are the same whoever is doing it and rarely to be honest do people call things by very different names.
> 
> Al this talk of 'crucibles' and 'testing, innovating, creating' etc is publicity speak, what you get from commentators hyping up a fight night. I can tell you now that the techniques we use now would have been used in Pankration way back in Ancient Greece!
> 
> Do we make things up as we go along...no. What we do is watch, learn, adapt, see what works, see what doesn't in techniques that come from all and any arts that have been around a long time.
> 
> I think you miss the point about what is exciting about MMA. it's not the training, it's the competition against yourself. We train the techniques we know work for us, we have them honed sharp and ready to use, we know our game plan and then we fight, the challenge of getting your opponent where you want them, avoiding them getting you where they want you, thinking tactically while striking, thinking moves ahead when grappling, see if you can take that hit and carry on and more. That's the excitement, the draw and lure of MMA. We used martial arts techniques that people have been using for years, we mix them up and we fight. That's enough, that's excitement, that's life if you love competition and challenging yourself.
> 
> It's nonsense to say we make up kicks, we make up strikes because I can tell you for a start in any given fight I can tell you what techniques are used and most likely what style or art they are used in, any competent martial artist can. It does matter what things are called because it allows people to understand what you are talking about....'a vertical roundhouse kick' tells people nothing other than ther is no such thing.
> 
> Oh and the 'showtime kick'?.....it's a mawashigeri, a roundhouse kick,  that he comes off the cage and spins afterwards doesn't make it anything different. It's not made up at all, the spin at the end? it can be used to go into another technique, a lot of styles can do that.



  Wow that was almost the most brilliant MMA post Ive ever heard in my life Sir.
  I alway grit my teeth when I hear people talk bad about Hybrid martial arts and then turn around and praise MMA till the sun goes down.
  To me all I see in MMA thats so unique or different is the type of people attracted to MMA which are usually the more athletic hard core type of peopleand the whole violence pop fashion that our culture now sports as a result of MMA, other than that Its the same stuff different day in most reguards.


----------



## Transk53

Dr.Smith said:


> Wow that was almost the most brilliant MMA post Ive ever heard in my life Sir.
> I alway grit my teeth when I hear people talk bad about Hybrid martial arts and then turn around and praise MMA till the sun goes down.
> To me all I see in MMA thats so unique or different is the type of people attracted to MMA which are usually the more athletic hard core type of peopleand the whole violence pop fashion that our culture now sports as a result of MMA, other than that Its the same stuff different day in most reguards.



Er, that would be a ma'am


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> Wow that was almost the most brilliant MMA post Ive ever heard in my life Sir.
> I alway grit my teeth when I hear people talk bad about Hybrid martial arts and then turn around and praise MMA till the sun goes down.
> To me all I see in MMA thats so unique or different is the type of people attracted to MMA which are usually the more athletic hard core type of peopleand the whole violence pop fashion that our culture now sports as a result of MMA, other than that Its the same stuff different day in most reguards.



you don't think the world class martial artists contributing to the development of mma has an effect?


----------



## Transk53

Reeksta said:


> As a Brit, when you hear Americans talk about a lady having a "big fanny" it's genuinely quite shocking until you realise they just mean bum lol



Surely not  That is mad considering the meaning over here lol.


----------



## Dr.Smith

drop bear said:


> you don't think the world class martial artists contributing to the development of mma has an effect?



  Ya know Bear to be very honest Ive been doing M.A. for over half my life now, snd if theres one thing about MMA that I can honestly tell you about its the fact that violence sells, and violence entertains.  Reread my post though because you must have missed the part where I point out  that MMA has attracted athletic participants.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> Ya know Bear to be very honest Ive been doing M.A. for over half my life now, snd if theres one thing about MMA that I can honestly tell you about its the fact that violence sells, and violence entertains.  Reread my post though because you must have missed the part where I point out  that MMA has attracted athletic participants.



athletic participants has a slightly different connotation to what i am getting at. In that the competition attracts some of the worlds best martial artists.

which is why even though the techniques may appear the same. They really are not.

in other words mayweather uses a jab. I use a jab.

it is not the same jab.


----------



## Dr.Smith

drop bear said:


> athletic participants has a slightly different connotation to what i am getting at. In that the competition attracts some of the worlds best martial artists.
> 
> which is why even though the techniques may appear the same. They really are not.
> 
> in other words mayweather uses a jab. I use a jab.
> 
> Frankly thats really reaching for it.  I undderstand you like MMA, I do too, but your going to have to let go of it to really get it.  Bro a jab is a jab, just keep it simple ok lols in the end youll realize that.
> 
> it is not the same jab.


----------



## Dr.Smith

For some reason my replies arnt posting so bear with me here ok.  Well Bear you certainly welcome to your opnion my friend, but from the perspective I have of Martial arts all techniques need to be slightly altered in different situations and for different people.  I love MMA I really do, but its alot of hype and violence and pop culture pushes it, I have to be able to ynderstand that fact in order to keep myself grounded.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> For some reason my replies arnt posting so bear with me here ok.  Well Bear you certainly welcome to your opnion my friend, but from the perspective I have of Martial arts all techniques need to be slightly altered in different situations and for different people.  I love MMA I really do, but its alot of hype and violence and pop culture pushes it, I have to be able to ynderstand that fact in order to keep myself grounded.



yes it is a lot of hype an violence. But it also has a much larger talent pool in which to draw from.

this means better fighters. Better instructors and a technically better system.

going back to the mayweather example. His boxing does not just suit his needs. He has a fundamentally better system than i do. So if the choice was learn boxing off me or may weather. You are going to choose him.


----------



## Dr.Smith

drop bear said:


> yes it is a lot of hype an violence. But it also has a much larger talent pool in which to draw from.
> 
> this means better fighters. Better instructors and a technically better system.
> 
> going back to the mayweather example. His boxing does not just suit his needs. He has a fundamentally better system than i do. So if the choice was learn boxing off me or may weather. You are going to choose him.



  Well Bear your close really really close about this topic but still your argument is more opnion than fact at this point, and I would pick Fred Roach honestly lols.
  The thing is that if you really stop and meditate on this point I truely believe it will allow you to see my point much more clearly, I honestly do.
  Its not just the fact that M.A have been around so long its the fact that MMA has been around for so long as well...Im trying to help you remember what was said about pancration earlier in this thread.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> Well Bear your close really really close about this topic but still your argument is more opnion than fact at this point, and I would pick Fred Roach honestly lols.
> The thing is that if you really stop and meditate on this point I truely believe it will allow you to see my point much more clearly, I honestly do.
> Its not just the fact that M.A have been around so long its the fact that MMA has been around for so long as well...Im trying to help you remember what was said about pancration earlier in this thread.



yes but we still have the bigger talent pool creating a more refined product.

So yes there were versions of mma before the modern concept. But modern mma has progressed in leaps and bounds from those days.


----------



## Dr.Smith

Lols, well again Bear you do really really well but then blam you ignore the facts in place of your own opnion. Not an insult mind you.
  Heres the thing, no one is saying there isnt talent of all kinds in MMA especially the UfC league, In fact we all agree with you.  What we are trying to point out to you is that the techniques and base MA systems that make up all MMA systems are old, at least a hunerd years old and in some cases (pancrace) a few thousnd old lols, get the point now???


----------



## Paul_D

Reeksta said:


> As a Brit, when you hear Americans talk about a lady having a "big fanny" it's genuinely quite shocking until you realise they just mean bum lol


It's even better when you're watching The Simpsons with your six year old and Marge talks about having a sore fanny (she falls over I think, can't remember) and then your six your old asks you what a fanny is.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

A friend of mine today wondered aloud on facebook if MMA is wrongly named.  Simply because when you think martial arts you think of more than just the physical techniques.  Things like loyalty, integrity, etc. come to mind and his point was that he did not feel that Jon Jones and several others represented martial arts but instead combative entertainment.  My friend is a BJJ practitioner just for reference.


----------



## Dr.Smith

Its not wrongly named, it is mixed martial arts.  Ive always said that the term MMA was very generic and that the only real use for it in my opnion was for anouncers trying to give a simple explination as to what the s[ectators were watching.  Most spectators arnt martial arts savvy enough to understand what all those System names are and it really makes an MMa match boreing to the general public.
  I am by no means a traditional Martial artist, Ive done Hybrid and sport martial arts for my entire career with the exception of some Shotokan when I was younger, all that said, I still have to think that the base arts of Karate,Jujitsu,Boxing,Judo,wrestleing and Kick boxing (Savate,Muai whatever) all deserve credit for what they have lent to MMA and that their histories shouldnt be forgotten or made to appear cheap and unworthy just because they didnt have televised matches or set any fashion trends.
  And to be clear I love MMA matches, in fact people come over all the time and we watch the fight and have a beer.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> A friend of mine today wondered aloud on facebook if MMA is wrongly named.  Simply because when you think martial arts you think of more than just the physical techniques.  Things like loyalty, integrity, etc. come to mind and his point was that he did not feel that Jon Jones and several others represented martial arts but instead combative entertainment.  My friend is a BJJ practitioner just for reference.



very big call to say people are participating in a sport that has no moral compass.


----------



## Dr.Smith

drop bear said:


> very big call to say people are participating in a sport that has no moral compass.



 Well not to argue just to argue but the UFC is pretty much about sex,drugs (steroids and pot) and rock and roll isnt it? I mean a UFC match resembles a concert as much as a fight these days anyway.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*Drop* *bear I for one do not feel that participants in MMA lack a moral compass*.  My first hand experience with mma athletes has always been positive.  So please do not put words in my mouth.   I just reiterated what a BJJ practitioner who is a friend of mine commented on.  (I can show you a link if you wish it via pm)  That friend has also been in the cage many a time and trains with one of my students who also has over thirty mma matches.  MMA as in the UFC (which is what he was commenting on and Jon Jones in particular) is a brand, a business and a sport no different on many levels than the NFL, etc.  Does Jon Jones represent all of MMA?  I don't think so but he certainly is the champion in the largest organization in the world and many feel after the shenanigans with Cormier, etc. that he is not representing it positively.  If you watched the fight last night you would have noticed he was even a sore winner after the fight. 

*MMA = Mixed Martial Arts and that is not going to ever change.*  But is it the right moniker? 

Dr. Smith does make a valid comment about where the UFC is at this time.  I do not think you want to go down the road of all the negative things associated with the UFC and it's current and former fighters.  The list is so long I would get tired linking to all of them.  Nor is anyone saying that all UFC mma fighters are bad as that is ridiculous.  There are a lot of good people participating in the sport and also the UFC.  Someone from the same BJJ group that I come from fought last night in the UFC and he is a good guy and there are a lot more.  Royce is a great guy and he started the whole thing.  GSP is a great guy.  Yet, you cannot ignore what some fighters are doing or have done.

Very few of the fighters should be considered role models just like the NFL, NBA, etc.  This is a business and it is in the entertainment category.  So........ sex, drugs, roided up athletes, intrigue, rock and roll sells.  It has worked for the NBA, NFL and just about any other professional sports league.  *The business is doing very well*. (ie. the UFC)

Having said all of the above I like watching the UFC and have from the beginning but I also understand what it is.  It is entertainment, pure and simple!


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> Well not to argue just to argue but the UFC is pretty much about sex,drugs (steroids and pot) and rock and roll isnt it? I mean a UFC match resembles a concert as much as a fight these days anyway.



lol. Not really.

this boils down to the idea that mma is cool. And it really isn't.

honestly it is mostly a sweaty guy sitting on top of you punching you in the face.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Drop* *bear I for one do not feel that participants in MMA lack a moral compass*.  My first hand experience with mma athletes has always been positive.  So please do not put words in my mouth.   I just reiterated what a BJJ practitioner who is a friend of mine commented on.  (I can show you a link if you wish it via pm)  That friend has also been in the cage many a time and trains with one of my students who also has over thirty mma matches.  MMA as in the UFC (which is what he was commenting on and Jon Jones in particular) is a brand, a business and a sport no different on many levels than the NFL, etc.  Does Jon Jones represent all of MMA?  I don't think so but he certainly is the champion in the largest organization in the world and many feel after the shenanigans with Cormier, etc. that he is not representing it positively.  If you watched the fight last night you would have noticed he was even a sore winner after the fight.
> 
> *MMA = Mixed Martial Arts and that is not going to ever change.*  But is it the right moniker?
> 
> Dr. Smith does make a valid comment about where the UFC is at this time.  I do not think you want to go down the road of all the negative things associated with the UFC and it's current and former fighters.  The list is so long I would get tired linking to all of them.  Nor is anyone saying that all UFC mma fighters are bad as that is ridiculous.  There are a lot of good people participating in the sport and also the UFC.  Someone from the same BJJ group that I come from fought last night in the UFC and he is a good guy and there are a lot more.  Royce is a great guy and he started the whole thing.  GSP is a great guy.  Yet, you cannot ignore what some fighters are doing or have done.
> 
> Very few of the fighters should be considered role models just like the NFL, NBA, etc.  This is a business and it is in the entertainment category.  So........ sex, drugs, roided up athletes, intrigue, rock and roll sells.  It has worked for the NBA, NFL and just about any other professional sports league.  *The business is doing very well*. (ie. the UFC)
> 
> Having said all of the above I like watching the UFC and have from the beginning but I also understand what it is.  It is entertainment, pure and simple!



so before i address that do you think your friend is right or wrong in his opinion of mma?

because you have sort of said it wasn't your idea and then you have defended it.

i don't get offended by people who think mma is a thugs game. But there are reasons why i think they are wrong.


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> honestly it is mostly a sweaty guy sitting on top of you punching you in the face.


 
This is a "judgement free zone", Drop Bear. If that's what you're into, that's cool.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Very few of the fighters should be considered role models just like the NFL, NBA, etc. This is a business and it is in the entertainment category. So........ sex, drugs, roided up athletes, intrigue, rock and roll sells. It has worked for the NBA, NFL and just about any other professional sports league. *The business is doing very well*. (ie. the UFC)



ok here is the meat of the matter.

Martial arts is a business. With all the negative aspects that goes with it.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> ok here is the meat of the matter.
> 
> *Martial arts is a business*. With all the negative aspects that goes with it.



Man I would to see how the big the broom is that you sweep the patio with. Now you saying that MA is a business, what?? Could elaborate on what you exactly mean on that?


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Man I would to see how the big the broom is that you sweep the patio with. Now you saying that MA is a business, what?? Could elaborate on what you exactly mean on that?



that mma does not have a monopoly on being a product of capitalism. I paid for pretty much all my martial arts training.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> that mma does not have a monopoly on being a product of capitalism. I paid for pretty much all my martial arts training.



Well that is somewhat obvious, I have had to pay for whatever I have done too, but that does not strictly make for a business enterprise, but a place of learning. Yeah so you get a father and son/daughter situation with free training, but I bet they would still have to contribute a few quid for grading, equipment or whatever. Does that make it a business, or a capitalist venture? Tbh using "capitalism" in sense is out of kilter anyway.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Well that is somewhat obvious, I have had to pay for whatever I have done too, but that does not strictly make for a business enterprise, but a place of learning. Yeah so you get a father and son/daughter situation with free training, but I bet they would still have to contribute a few quid for grading, equipment or whatever. Does that make it a business, or a capitalist venture? Tbh using "capitalism" in sense is out of kilter anyway.



it depends on the individual. But i don't think mma is inherently less charity focused than tma.

so to call out mma as a business is to ignore the reality that everybody else is one as well.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> so to call out mma as a business is to ignore the reality that everybody else is one as well.



You said it man, not me  Then again you have missed my point, and I doubt I could convey it any other way. I'm out of here.


----------



## tshadowchaser

we may be starting to drift from MMA being made up with statements like "that mma does not have a monopoly on being a product of capitalism. I paid for pretty much all my martial arts training." but I will agree that most martial arts schools charge for there services.
 Yes the commercial side of the art is seen in people charging for training time and in the fact that some aspects of the art is televised. But was an art (MMA) actually created for this reason or was it a logical outcome of people cross training 
To me MMA as it exists today is not a art at all, it is a combination of arts that are being combined and is to fragmented in its approach in training by the different "schools" to be labeled a single art.


----------



## drop bear

tshadowchaser said:


> we may be starting to drift from MMA being made up with statements like "that mma does not have a monopoly on being a product of capitalism. I paid for pretty much all my martial arts training." but I will agree that most martial arts schools charge for there services.
> Yes the commercial side of the art is seen in people charging for training time and in the fact that some aspects of the art is televised. But was an art (MMA) actually created for this reason or was it a logical outcome of people cross training
> To me MMA as it exists today is not a art at all, it is a combination of arts that are being combined and is to fragmented in its approach in training by the different "schools" to be labeled a single art.



well the ufc was originally designed to show how great gjj was.

the argument i have heard is that mma is not an art. It is a rule set. But then again Greg Jackson is giving out belts in mma.

and a Greg Jackson black belt is going to be a very real black belt.


----------



## Steve

drop bear said:


> it depends on the individual. But i don't think mma is inherently less charity focused than tma.
> 
> so to call out mma as a business is to ignore the reality that everybody else is one as well.


For the most part, this is a true statement.  We can all agree (I think) that when we gripe about the things we see in TMA, MMA or really anything else, they often have to do with commercialization and ways to monetize a hobby.  Making money often comes at a cost (no pun intended). 

TKD... there are some great schools out there, I hear.  I personally don't see those.  Granted, I'm not looking, so I'm going to take you guys at your word.  But the TKD schools I see are the ones full of kids in the strip mall down the street. 

There are notable exceptions.  Not every school is run for profit.  We hear about schools that are run as clubs or non-profits all the time in the USA.  It is actually very rare to find a Judo school in the USA that is run for profit.  That doesn't mean their free.  It means, though, that they can dispense with marketability and focus on the art. 

All of that said, your point is a good one.  Unless you're running a school as a non-profit, a charity, a club or just flat out teaching for free, you're tossing stones in a glass house.  Any criticism of MMA for effective marketing just doesn't resonate.  Even within the MMA  community, there are folks who like to think of themselves as purists.  Like it or not, the UFC is putting money in everyone's pockets.  If you aren't riding the MMA tide, you're marketing yourself against it.  It's generated a lot of interest in martial arts in general, and is giving a lot of martial artists an opportunity to make a living doing what they enjoy.


----------



## Steve

tshadowchaser said:


> we may be starting to drift from MMA being made up with statements like "that mma does not have a monopoly on being a product of capitalism. I paid for pretty much all my martial arts training." but I will agree that most martial arts schools charge for there services.
> Yes the commercial side of the art is seen in people charging for training time and in the fact that some aspects of the art is televised. But was an art (MMA) actually created for this reason or was it a logical outcome of people cross training
> To me MMA as it exists today is not a art at all, it is a combination of arts that are being combined and is to fragmented in its approach in training by the different "schools" to be labeled a single art.


 I'd say that now, as in the past, MMA is a sport.  The recipe for success in the sport is evolving.  This is really true specifically since the UFC adopted the unified rules in ~2003 and was able to actually get an MMA event sanctioned by the Nevada Gaming Commission.  That was when MMA became a legitimate, marketable and profitable sport.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Dr.Smith said:


> Heres the thing, no one is saying there isnt talent of all kinds in MMA especially the UfC league, In fact we all agree with you. What we are trying to point out to you is that the techniques and base MA systems that make up all MMA systems are old, at least a hunerd years old and in some cases (pancrace) a few thousnd old lols, get the point now???



I don't think drop bear disagrees with any of that. I think his point is something like the following:

Whatever art you train, you are only as good as your training partners and your competition. When you get a large number of talented people from around the world training full time in an effort to surpass each other, then you end up having an accelerated evolution of the art in question. Whether you are talking MMA, professional boxing, or Olympic Judo, you end up with something well beyond what you'll see from the hobbyists at the local dojo.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> A friend of mine today wondered aloud on facebook if MMA is wrongly named. Simply because when you think martial arts you think of more than just the physical techniques. Things like loyalty, integrity, etc. come to mind and his point was that he did not feel that Jon Jones and several others represented martial arts but instead combative entertainment. My friend is a BJJ practitioner just for reference.



The ideals professed by many martial arts instructors are great, but in reality martial artists don't typically abide by those ideals any better than anyone else. Some MMA competitors may act like jerks, but I doubt the percentage of badly-behaving MMA competitors is significantly different from the percentage of badly-behaving karate/kung fu/tae kwon do instructors



Dr.Smith said:


> Well not to argue just to argue but the UFC is pretty much about sex,drugs (steroids and pot) and rock and roll isnt it? I mean a UFC match resembles a concert as much as a fight these days anyway



Well, Dana White certainly believes in marketing the UFC as an entertainment spectacle. That's not to say the individual fighters necessarily are more concerned with entertainment than with testing themselves and their art. (Some certainly do buy into the whole entertainment game - see Chael Sonnen - but not all.)

Then again, I don't think that "sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll" or the absence thereof has a lot of relevance to whether someone has a moral compass.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> For the most part, this is a true statement.  We can all agree (I think) that when we gripe about the things we see in TMA, MMA or really anything else, they often have to do with commercialization and ways to monetize a hobby.  Making money often comes at a cost (no pun intended).
> 
> TKD... there are some great schools out there, I hear.  I personally don't see those.  Granted, I'm not looking, so I'm going to take you guys at your word.  But the TKD schools I see are the ones full of kids in the strip mall down the street.
> 
> There are notable exceptions.  Not every school is run for profit.  We hear about schools that are run as clubs or non-profits all the time in the USA.  It is actually very rare to find a Judo school in the USA that is run for profit.  That doesn't mean their free.  It means, though, that they can dispense with marketability and focus on the art.
> 
> All of that said, your point is a good one.  Unless you're running a school as a non-profit, a charity, a club or just flat out teaching for free, you're tossing stones in a glass house.  Any criticism of MMA for effective marketing just doesn't resonate.  Even within the MMA  community, there are folks who like to think of themselves as purists.  Like it or not, the UFC is putting money in everyone's pockets.  If you aren't riding the MMA tide, you're marketing yourself against it.  It's generated a lot of interest in martial arts in general, and is giving a lot of martial artists an opportunity to make a living doing what they enjoy.



And that is not even taking in to account all the non monetary reasons why a martial art school may be considered morally corrupt.

(i am using martial art as a generic here. So i mean mma in that umbrella as well.)


----------



## tshadowchaser

drop bear said:


> well the ufc was originally designed to show how great gjj was.


true  the original ufc or MMA matches where people from different disciplines competing against each other.  Karate  against boxing, wrestlers vs judo, bjj vs kung fu, etc.  The funny thing about that is they told the kung fu people they could not go to the ground and fight from there after a few fights. BUt mostly it was set up with les than great people to match against the Gracies at that time



drop bear said:


> the argument i have heard is that mma is not an art. It is a rule set.


that is my thought on it also but it is fast becoming a way to train and will be considered a form of martial art by those who look back on it in the future


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

drop bear said:


> so before i address that do you think your friend is right or wrong in his opinion of mma?
> 
> because you have sort of said it wasn't your idea and then you have defended it.
> 
> i don't get offended by people who think mma is a thugs game. But there are reasons why i think they are wrong.



*No I have a very broad view of mma and the UFC in particular*.  I do not see mma as bad or the UFC as bad.  I actually enjoy watching mma and in particular the UFC.   My experience with mma practitioiner's in real life has always been positive.  My experience with BJJ practitioner's who were also mma fighters has been steller.  Yet, there are mma practitioner's that I do not want to associate with.  Like with anything and any business their are shades or grey.  Everything is not all cut black and white!


----------



## Steve

Tony Dismukes said:


> Well, Dana White certainly believes in marketing the UFC as an entertainment spectacle. That's not to say the individual fighters necessarily are more concerned with entertainment than with testing themselves and their art. (Some certainly do buy into the whole entertainment game - see Chael Sonnen - but not all.)
> 
> Then again, I don't think that "sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll" or the absence thereof has a lot of relevance to whether someone has a moral compass.


Spectacle in combat sports is nothing new.  And, I'd say that the UFC has actually toned it down from where MMA was/is in Japan.  I remember the entrances and spectacle involved in Pride FC.  Crazy stuff.  The Japanese LOVE that stuff, and you know, if it's what they want, then I don't see anything wrong with it.   Not my cup of tea, but whatever. 

We just have to remember that combat sports, like any other sport, make money by selling tickets and getting people excited about the individual matchups.  What the spectacle looks like really depends upon the culture of the viewership.  Pride FC was different than the UFC.  Tez says all the time that she doesn't care for the UFC, and historically, the UFC doesn't do as well in the European market (although it doesn't do poorly).  It's just a different culture and the spectacle has to adapt. 

Regarding the individual fighters, the UFC is currently being sued for fixing salaries and a monopoly on the market.  They may have a case, but of course, the UFC will fight it in court.  The point is that professional fighters want to make a living, and in the current environment, there are few ways to become a brand than to compete and succeed in the UFC.  You don't hav to make a mint while fighting in order to create a reputation sufficient to open a gym and make a living training others.  But in order to get noticed by the UFC, you HAVE to do something noteworthy, and winning fights alone just won't do it.  And as we've seen in cases like Sonnen, just being a mouth will get you a payday.  You don't have to win the fights.  You just have to make the UFC money.  And if you also win fights, even better.

Look at Rousey in Strikeforce.  She didn't "earn" her title shot.  But she was so damned marketable, they made an exception.  Since then, she's more than validated that choice, but even if she lost, it's okay because she made Strikeforce a lot of money! 


tshadowchaser said:


> true  the original ufc or MMA matches where people from different disciplines competing against each other.  Karate  against boxing, wrestlers vs judo, bjj vs kung fu, etc.  The funny thing about that is they told the kung fu people they could not go to the ground and fight from there after a few fights. BUt mostly it was set up with les than great people to match against the Gracies at that time
> 
> 
> that is my thought on it also but it is fast becoming a way to train and will be considered a form of martial art by those who look back on it in the future


Just a quick point.  What the UFC was prior to the unified ruleset and what it has since become are two different things. 

I do agree with you that MMA is normalizing.  But as for it being its own art, it will, I think, but only in the same way Western Boxing is considered an "art."  Which is to say that it will be to some and will not be to others.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *No I have a very broad view of mma and the UFC in particular*.  I do not see mma as bad or the UFC as bad.  I actually enjoy watching mma and in particular the UFC.   My experience with mma practitioiner's in real life has always been positive.  My experience with BJJ practitioner's who were also mma fighters has been steller.  Yet, there are mma practitioner's that I do not want to associate with.  Like with anything and any business their are shades or grey.  Everything is not all cut black and white!



ok. There are bad mma people out there. We all accept that.

what conclusion are you making from this?


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> Spectacle in combat sports is nothing new.  And, I'd say that the UFC has actually toned it down from where MMA was/is in Japan.  I remember the entrances and spectacle involved in Pride FC.  Crazy stuff.  The Japanese LOVE that stuff, and you know, if it's what they want, then I don't see anything wrong with it.   Not my cup of tea, but whatever.
> 
> We just have to remember that combat sports, like any other sport, make money by selling tickets and getting people excited about the individual matchups.  What the spectacle looks like really depends upon the culture of the viewership.  Pride FC was different than the UFC.  Tez says all the time that she doesn't care for the UFC, and historically, the UFC doesn't do as well in the European market (although it doesn't do poorly).  It's just a different culture and the spectacle has to adapt.
> 
> Regarding the individual fighters, the UFC is currently being sued for fixing salaries and a monopoly on the market.  They may have a case, but of course, the UFC will fight it in court.  The point is that professional fighters want to make a living, and in the current environment, there are few ways to become a brand than to compete and succeed in the UFC.  You don't hav to make a mint while fighting in order to create a reputation sufficient to open a gym and make a living training others.  But in order to get noticed by the UFC, you HAVE to do something noteworthy, and winning fights alone just won't do it.  And as we've seen in cases like Sonnen, just being a mouth will get you a payday.  You don't have to win the fights.  You just have to make the UFC money.  And if you also win fights, even better.
> 
> Look at Rousey in Strikeforce.  She didn't "earn" her title shot.  But she was so damned marketable, they made an exception.  Since then, she's more than validated that choice, but even if she lost, it's okay because she made Strikeforce a lot of money!
> Just a quick point.  What the UFC was prior to the unified ruleset and what it has since become are two different things.
> 
> I do agree with you that MMA is normalizing.  But as for it being its own art, it will, I think, but only in the same way Western Boxing is considered an "art."  Which is to say that it will be to some and will not be to others.



side note. One fc is starting to gain ground as a promotion.


----------



## drop bear

Greg Jackson with pretty much the same theory i have.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Greg Jackson with pretty much the same theory i have.



What just theory


----------



## Dr.Smith

Im not sure how long any of you have been in the martial arts but I have over twenty years under my belt, if I may be so bold I would like to point a few things out.
  I understand what is being said about how all the fighting advances a system or an art, I mean I hope you dont think Im that dense lols.
  But your really grabbing at straws to make a point when you make a statement so bold as to say that MMA is a new style.  How would any rational person really believe this.  All the styles that make up MMA have been around for a minimum of 100 years and some more like 3000years, pancration being the best example.
  Your point as your stateing it dosent hold water with experienced and seasoned martialartists.  The UFC brought martial arts fights to a huge audience, full of violence and intensity.  As a result people started to train with lots of violence and intensity.  The moves themselves were not new and are not new and to claim that your fifteen year old club is the founder of a whole new martial art is delusional or a flat out lie.
  Thats the truth dont take it the wrong way, look at martial arts history and stop grandstanding.


----------



## Dr.Smith

drop bear said:


> Greg Jackson with pretty much the same theory i have.


What he said is true and I couldnt argue any of that.
  My points still stand, first off I like MMA and Ufc fights, point blank.
Second point is that the UFC is a completeltly commercial ordeal these days.
My last point is that "MMA" arnt the first guys to mix up martial arts.  At best they can lay claim to an original rule set and they can boast of haveing talented fighters. They cannot claim to have invented a new fighting style...Sorry.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Dr.Smith said:


> Im not sure how long any of you have been in the martial arts but I have over twenty years under my belt, if I may be so bold I would like to point a few things out.
> I understand what is being said about how all the fighting advances a system or an art, I mean I hope you dont think Im that dense lols.
> But your really grabbing at straws to make a point when you make a statement so bold as to say that MMA is a new style.  How would any rational person really believe this.  All the styles that make up MMA have been around for a minimum of 100 years and some more like 3000years, pancration being the best example.
> Your point as your stateing it dosent hold water with experienced and seasoned martialartists.  The UFC brought martial arts fights to a huge audience, full of violence and intensity.  As a result people started to train with lots of violence and intensity.  The moves themselves were not new and are not new and to claim that your fifteen year old club is the founder of a whole new martial art is delusional or a flat out lie.
> Thats the truth dont take it the wrong way, look at martial arts history and stop grandstanding.


 Well, I've got 33 years of training under my belt, for whatever that's worth.

I don't think anyone would deny that everything in MMA comes from older arts. That doesn't really have much bearing on whether or not you consider it to be a new martial art style in itself. All of those arts that MMA draws from were themselves derived from older arts. Is Judo not its own martial art just because it was derived from Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu? Is Sambo not its own art because it was derived from Judo and Russian folk wrestling? Is your own art of Zanshin Karate not a style because it is derived from Shotokan and Boxing?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

drop bear said:


> ok. There are bad mma people out there. We all accept that.
> 
> what conclusion are you making from this?



None, just pointing out what a friend said!


----------



## Transk53

Dr.Smith said:


> Im not sure how long any of you have been in the martial arts but I have over twenty years under my belt, if I may be so bold I would like to point a few things out.
> I understand what is being said about how all the fighting advances a system or an art, I mean I hope you dont think Im that dense lols.
> But your really grabbing at straws to make a point when you make a statement so bold as to say that MMA is a new style.  How would any rational person really believe this.  All the styles that make up MMA have been around for a minimum of 100 years and some more like 3000years, pancration being the best example.
> Your point as your stateing it dosent hold water with experienced and seasoned martialartists.  The UFC brought martial arts fights to a huge audience, full of violence and intensity.  As a result people started to train with lots of violence and intensity.  The moves themselves were not new and are not new and to claim that your fifteen year old club is the founder of a whole new martial art is delusional or a flat out lie.
> Thats the truth dont take it the wrong way, look at martial arts history and stop grandstanding.



Yes, but only one person grandstanding


----------



## Dr.Smith

Tony Dismukes said:


> Well, I've got 33 years of training under my belt, for whatever that's worth.
> 
> I don't think anyone would deny that everything in MMA comes from older arts. That doesn't really have much bearing on whether or not you consider it to be a new martial art style in itself. All of those arts that MMA draws from were themselves derived from older arts. Is Judo not its own martial art just because it was derived from Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu? Is Sambo not its own art because it was derived from Judo and Russian folk wrestling? Is your own art of Zanshin Karate not a style because it is derived from Shotokan and Boxing?



  Your experience is completely valid and your input is valueable.
As far as it goes yes they have created their own martial arts systems and thats cool, but name those arts and then put them in the mma genre. Thats all im sayin.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> What he said is true and I couldnt argue any of that.
> My points still stand, first off I like MMA and Ufc fights, point blank.
> Second point is that the UFC is a completeltly commercial ordeal these days.
> My last point is that "MMA" arnt the first guys to mix up martial arts.  At best they can lay claim to an original rule set and they can boast of haveing talented fighters. They cannot claim to have invented a new fighting style...Sorry.



gotcha.

you are arguing two different points. One is mma is not a new style. Which i disagree with.

the other is that mma did not invent the concept of mixing styles,competition or a no holds barred approach to training or fighting. Which is correct.


----------



## Dr.Smith

drop bear said:


> gotcha.
> 
> you are arguing two different points. One is mma is not a new style. Which i disagree with.
> 
> the other is that mma did not invent the concept of mixing styles,competition or a no holds barred approach to training or fighting. Which is correct.


MMA is a martial arts genre, the fact they dont wanna give their art a name is corney.


----------



## Steve

Dr.Smith said:


> MMA is a martial arts genre, the fact they dont wanna give their art a name is corney.


Mma is a sport, not a martial arts genre.  Like most sports, the name is descriptive.   Bowling, boxing, football.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Dirty Dog

Dr.Smith said:


> MMA is a martial arts genre, the fact they dont wanna give their art a name is corney.



It has a name. "Mixed Martial Arts" is not really any more corny than "Empty Hand Way", "China Hand" or "The Way of Kicking and Punching".



Steve said:


> Mma is a sport, not a martial arts genre.  Like most sports, the name is descriptive.   Bowling, boxing, football.



It's also a martial arts genre. Let's face it, there is significant overlap between the two... Hockey could also be considered a martial arts genre...


----------



## Steve

Dirty Dog said:


> It has a name. "Mixed Martial Arts" is not really any more corny than "Empty Hand Way", "China Hand" or "The Way of Kicking and Punching".
> 
> 
> 
> It's also a martial arts genre. Let's face it, there is significant overlap between the two... Hockey could also be considered a martial arts genre...


Lol.  I wouldn't consider hockey a martial arts genre either.   But if you do, I can understand why you would include Mma in that category.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> Lol.  I wouldn't consider hockey a martial arts genre either.   But if you do, I can understand why you would include Mma in that category.



Are you kidding? How often have you watched hockey and wondered if a game might break out? Hockey is, in some ways, a Canadian Kendo match...

It's mixed _*Martial Arts*_... how can it not be considered a martial arts genre?


----------



## Steve

Dirty Dog said:


> Are you kidding? How often have you watched hockey and wondered if a game might break out? Hockey is, in some ways, a Canadian Kendo match...
> 
> It's mixed _*Martial Arts*_... how can it not be considered a martial arts genre?


 I guess I just don't think "genre" is the right word here.  

MMA is a sport.  And the sport is quite well defined.  So, yeah, I agree that MMA and Hockey have some things in common.  Neither, however, is a martial arts style.  Both are sports with well established rule sets.

If you're saying that Mixed Martial Arts is a style of martial arts, at this time I disagree. It may become a standardized martial art in the future, but the formula for success in the cage is still very fluid.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> I guess I just don't think "genre" is the right word here.



Well, the word is usually used in context with art, so if there is art in the Martial Arts, then it could be considered appropriate.



Steve said:


> MMA is a sport.  And the sport is quite well defined.  So, yeah, I agree that MMA and Hockey have some things in common.  Neither, however, is a martial arts style.  Both are sports with well established rule sets.



If you take two or more martial arts and mash them together, do they stop being martial arts? Do those who practice the mashup stop being martial artists?



Steve said:


> If you're saying that Mixed Martial Arts is a style of martial arts, at this time I disagree. It may become a standardized martial art in the future, but the formula for success in the cage is still very fluid.



As is the "formula" (I think that word is no more appropriate  - or inappropriate - than genre) for success in many (excluding the ultra-traditional don't-change-an-angle-by-even-1-degree arts) martial arts.


----------



## Steve

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, the word is usually used in context with art, so if there is art in the Martial Arts, then it could be considered appropriate.
> 
> If you take two or more martial arts and mash them together, do they stop being martial arts? Do those who practice the mashup stop being martial artists?


Of course not.  Judo is a martial art.  BJJ, Sambo, TKD, Shotokan Karate... all martial arts.  When you mash them together and use them in a cage under the unified ruleset of MMA, they remain martial arts, but the sum becomes a sport. 





> As is the "formula" (I think that word is no more appropriate  - or inappropriate - than genre) for success in many (excluding the ultra-traditional don't-change-an-angle-by-even-1-degree arts) martial arts.


Genre typically refers to a sub category of an art form: music, literature, film, painting, sculpture.  If you want to push the "art" in martial art, I get where you're going, but it's not really the same thing.  

That said, it's not worth arguing.  I understand how you're using the term, and that's what really matters.  Given your use of the term, I still disagree that MMA is a genre of martial art.  If anything, it's a sport that incorporates many genres of MA according to various formulas... recipes if you will.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> Of course not.  Judo is a martial art.  BJJ, Sambo, TKD, Shotokan Karate... all martial arts.  When you mash them together and use them in a cage under the unified ruleset of MMA, they remain martial arts, but the sum becomes a sport.



Or a Martial Art. Kajukenbo, for example. Or Hapkido. Or even Taekwondo, since although it was primarily derived from Shotokan, there are also other influences.



Steve said:


> Genre typically refers to a sub category of an art form: music, literature, film, painting, sculpture.  If you want to push the "art" in martial art, I get where you're going, but it's not really the same thing.
> That said, it's not worth arguing.  I understand how you're using the term, and that's what really matters.  Given your use of the term, I still disagree that MMA is a genre of martial art.  If anything, it's a sport that incorporates many genres of MA according to various formulas... recipes if you will.



Well, it wasn't my use. I just quoted it and didn't think it was worth picking the nit. It's close enough that I can see an argument for it's use.


----------



## Steve

Dirty Dog said:


> Or a Martial Art. Kajukenbo, for example. Or Hapkido. Or even Taekwondo, since although it was primarily derived from Shotokan, there are also other influences.


Sure, as I said, MMA may become a martial arts style one day.  It's not there, yet, IMO.  Still too fluid.  If you look at Kajukenbo, Hapkido or TKD, the canon of techniques is well fixed.  The curriculum is consistent. 

If you look at the websites for any of these three styles of MA, you will see specific techniques, katas, and drills that define the style.  





> Well, it wasn't my use. I just quoted it and didn't think it was worth picking the nit. It's close enough that I can see an argument for it's use.


I get it.  Honestly, the term isn't all that important.  What I interpreted you to suggest is that MMA is its own martial arts style.  I just don't think it's that well defined yet, although some day it may become so.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Steve said:


> I get it. Honestly, the term isn't all that important. What I interpreted you to suggest is that MMA is its own martial arts style. I just don't think it's that well defined yet, although some day it may become so.


I think we probably mostly agree that MMA is in the process of becoming a distinct, recognizable style. There's room for disagreement regarding how far along that process it is. Depending on how you view a "style" it may be just beginning to take shape or it may be most of the way there.


----------



## Steve

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think we probably mostly agree that MMA is in the process of becoming a distinct, recognizable style. There's room for disagreement regarding how far along that process it is. Depending on how you view a "style" it may be just beginning to take shape or it may be most of the way there.


As long as we have guys who are successful in MMA using esoteric techniques, MMA will not be a specific style.  While there are common ingredients in the recipe (BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai, Boxing) there are plenty of other possible ingredients as well (san shou, shotokan karate, judo, kenpo).  It's just very fluid.

In another thread, Hanzou asked why we don't see Aikido in MMA.  The answer is that there is no reason.  Aikido doesn't really lend itself to the sport, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see someone incorporate elements of his aikido training into the mix.  Same could be said for Silat, Capoiera, Kajukenbo or systema.  No single style will be very successful in MMA, but the sport is too young to suggest that the style is fully canonized.

Lyoto Machida is known as a Shotokan guy, but he's also a black belt in BJJ.  And would it surprise anyone here to know that he's got a background in Sumo?


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Lyoto Machida is known as a Shotokan guy, but he's also a black belt in BJJ. And would it surprise anyone here to know that he's got a background in Sumo?



Myself for one!


----------



## Steve

Transk53 said:


> Myself for one!


  The man himself...


----------



## Transk53

@Steve yes that very interesting, thanks. I read a little on him after seeing "Never Back Down 2". Sumo though, really not that supprising. The guys a genius martial artist imho


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## Dr.Smith

I played Hockey as a kid and was quit a little goon by the way. I couldnt call it a martial completely but there is a right and a wrong way to hockey fight, just sayin.
  Ok guys break the name down "MMA" mixed martial arts, ok the name says it all, so yes it is a martial art.  Now as far as it being argued that its a sport, yes it is a sport, like boxing,kick boxing,judo,pancration,wrestleing and Jujitsu. So what kind of sport is it well thats easy to ansewer its a combat sport, ok.
How is 'mma" a genre thats easy too, MMA as a rule set allows grapleing there for those arts designed for those contest rules fall in the genre of "MMA".  Still dont believe me, ok is boxing a sport? Is it a martial art? HMMM I think both if you really think about it.
   If you were looking for a place to train and you wanted a jujitsu/kick boxing mix you wouldnt settle for a boxing/wrestleing mix right, so how would you tell the difference first off you would have to know what arts the instructors mix, you might also be able to identify the style if it had a reckignizeable name, i.e. Nogueria MMA, BJJ boxing. Thats my poin not all MMA is the same.


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## Dr.Smith

Ok please let my twenty years of Hybrid Karate shine some light on how this actually works if you will.

  In the sporting world you have multiple degrees of compitition and many different sportting activites. 
  These are sports, Baseball,swimming,ice hocky.
These are "combat Sports" Judo, wrestleing, Boxing, MMA, Kick boxing, Karate, TKD, Savate, Muai Thai, fenceing...See the difference, and notice how many Martial arts and traditional martial arts are actually competitive and done at many different levels by many different athletes just like baseball and swimming.
  But in the martial arts theres a catch...Hybrid systems of martial arts often times can cross over into MMA, and kick boxing/boxing.  This depends on the Hybrid mix and be sure to note that most hybrid mixes were not created specifically for compitition which is sometimes the only difference between MMA and hybrid martial arts.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> I guess I just don't think "genre" is the right word here.
> 
> MMA is a sport.  And the sport is quite well defined.  So, yeah, I agree that MMA and Hockey have some things in common.  Neither, however, is a martial arts style.  Both are sports with well established rule sets.
> 
> If you're saying that Mixed Martial Arts is a style of martial arts, at this time I disagree. It may become a standardized martial art in the future, but the formula for success in the cage is still very fluid.



Same with bjj though. That is still evolving through competition.


----------



## Transk53

Dr.Smith said:


> I played Hockey as a kid and was quit a little goon by the way. I couldnt call it a martial completely but there is a right and a wrong way to hockey fight, just sayin.
> Ok guys break the name down "MMA" mixed martial arts, ok the name says it all, so yes it is a martial art.  Now as far as it being argued that its a sport, yes it is a sport, like boxing,kick boxing,judo,pancration,wrestleing and Jujitsu. So what kind of sport is it well thats easy to ansewer its a combat sport, ok.
> How is 'mma" a genre thats easy too, MMA as a rule set allows grapleing there for those arts designed for those contest rules fall in the genre of "MMA".  Still dont believe me, ok is boxing a sport? Is it a martial art? HMMM I think both if you really think about it.
> If you were looking for a place to train and you wanted a jujitsu/kick boxing mix you wouldnt settle for a boxing/wrestleing mix right, so how would you tell the difference first off you would have to know what arts the instructors mix, you might also be able to identify the style if it had a reckignizeable name, i.e. Nogueria MMA, BJJ boxing. Thats my poin not all MMA is the same.



Exactly. Why I cannot see it being unified into a coherent form, or being codified as it were.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> Of course not.  Judo is a martial art.  BJJ, Sambo, TKD, Shotokan Karate... all martial arts.  When you mash them together and use them in a cage under the unified ruleset of MMA, they remain martial arts, but the sum becomes a sport. Genre typically refers to a sub category of an art form: music, literature, film, painting, sculpture.  If you want to push the "art" in martial art, I get where you're going, but it's not really the same thing.
> 
> That said, it's not worth arguing.  I understand how you're using the term, and that's what really matters.  Given your use of the term, I still disagree that MMA is a genre of martial art.  If anything, it's a sport that incorporates many genres of MA according to various formulas... recipes if you will.



Depends on the club. A bjj club that competes in mma. Then mma is a rule set.

A mma club that trains in its own right. (And as i said you can earn a Greg Jackson mma belt) it is a martial art. And then bjj becomes a drill.


----------



## Dr.Smith

drop bear said:


> Depends on the club. A bjj club that competes in mma. Then mma is a rule set.
> 
> A mma club that trains in its own right. (And as i said you can earn a Greg Jackson mma belt) it is a martial art. And then bjj becomes a drill.



  Bear what is your Martial arts Back Ground?


----------



## Transk53

This is going to be interesting.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> Bear what is your Martial arts Back Ground?



doing mma at the moment a bit of judo and a bit of karate. Otherwise i have done a lot of different stuff.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> doing mma at the moment a bit of judo and a bit of karate. Otherwise i have done a lot of different stuff.



Makes sense.


----------



## Dr.Smith

How Many years have you studied and trained?


----------



## drop bear

I originally started with judo and Japanese jujitsu. For about five years. Then did a freestyle karate. Kickboxing and muai Thai. For about five or six years. Did scientific fighting congress Australia. Trained for four years. Taught it full time for a year. Did two styles of capoeira over mabye 3 or 4 years. Mma and boxing over 3 or 4 years.
and piddled about with some other stuff in between.

some of those overlapped. And there is some arts i did that i missed out because they are a bit embarrassing.


----------



## Dr.Smith

What sort of compitition back ground do you have?


----------



## Steve

Regarding the term "genre" I have no real problem calling it a genre, if that's what you want. It's a misuse of the term, but who cares? I'm not hung up on it as long as I know what you mean when you say it. That said, if you're using "genre" to refer to a unique and distinct style of martial art, I think you're mistaken.

BJJ existed as a martial art before BJJ competition came about, just as Judo, Muay Thai, TKD and Kyokushin Karate did.  In all of these cases, the competition continues to shape the martial art, but a martial art it remains as it was prior to the competitive elements.

MMA, unlike BJJ, Judo or TKD, began as a contest and evolved into a sport that was eventually brought together under a unified rule set.  While modern MMA was percolating and evolving for a long while prior to 2001, it wasn't until New Jersey drafted the unified rule set and Nevada used these rules to sanction an event that MMA was truly born.   There was no "MMA" school prior to the sport of MMA.

Guys, you're welcome to your opinions.  But you will never convince me that MMA is, at this point, other than a sport.   Comparisons to BJJ or Boxing just don't work.  Decades from now, when the training and techniques for MMA have become standardized, and people train exclusively for MMA events in "MMA" gyms, I might change my mind.  But we're not there yet.


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Regarding the term "genre" I have no real problem calling it a genre, if that's what you want. It's a misuse of the term, but who cares? I'm not hung up on it as long as I know what you mean when you say it. That said, if you're using "genre" to refer to a unique and distinct style of martial art, I think you're mistaken.
> 
> BJJ existed as a martial art before BJJ competition came about, just as Judo, Muay Thai, TKD and Kyokushin Karate did.  In all of these cases, the competition continues to shape the martial art, but a martial art it remains as it was prior to the competitive elements.
> 
> MMA, unlike BJJ, Judo or TKD, began as a contest and evolved into a sport that was eventually brought together under a unified rule set.  While modern MMA was percolating and evolving for a long while prior to 2001, it wasn't until New Jersey drafted the unified rule set and Nevada used these rules to sanction an event that MMA was truly born.   There was no "MMA" school prior to the sport of MMA.
> 
> Guys, you're welcome to your opinions.  But you will never convince me that MMA is, at this point, other than a sport.   Comparisons to BJJ or Boxing just don't work.  Decades from now, when the training and techniques for MMA have become standardized, and people train exclusively for MMA events in "MMA" gyms, I might change my mind.  But we're not there yet.



Yeah I don't disagree, but there has to be some bare bones somewhere, something to take away from from the sport front?


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> What sort of compitition back ground do you have?



Very little. I originally trained in Melbourne and the fight scene there was a bit restrictive in that you had to be the best of the best to even look at a fight.

The only guy that encourages people to compete is the one I am in now. And i started that at about 35 which is too old for serious competition.

i have done one mma but got bashed and am being coaxed into mabye another one if i can get the time.


----------



## Dr.Smith

So far Ive actually enjoyed this conversation, in the past ive found this to be something like pounding my head into a wall.   Looks like were all pretty close to the mark, at this point we might be trying to make a blanket statement about something thats just to complex, idk.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Very little. I originally trained in Melbourne and the fight scene there was a bit restrictive in that you had to be the best of the best to even look at a fight.
> 
> The only guy that encourages people to compete is the one I am in now. And i started that at about 35 which is too old for serious competition.
> 
> i have done one mma but got bashed and am being coaxed into mabye another one if i can get the time.



Then rely on the experience of age. Next bout, just #### him up.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Then rely on the experience of age. Next bout, just #### him up.



i will do my best.


----------



## Dr.Smith

drop bear said:


> Very little. I originally trained in Melbourne and the fight scene there was a bit restrictive in that you had to be the best of the best to even look at a fight.
> 
> The only guy that encourages people to compete is the one I am in now. And i started that at about 35 which is too old for serious competition.
> 
> i have done one mma but got bashed and am being coaxed into mabye another one if i can get the time.


Im almost 40 and if i can do it you can do it, find a good trainer and give it some time.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> i will do my best.



I will do my best means that you are going to take him, right


----------



## Transk53

Dr.Smith said:


> Im almost 40 and if i can do it you can do it, find a good trainer and give it some time.



Oh by the way, almost 40 is boring. Will be very happy to welcome you to the club


----------



## Dr.Smith

Thanks guys.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> Im almost 40 and if i can do it you can do it, find a good trainer and give it some time.



you are going to fight?


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> I will do my best means that you are going to take him, right



yeah pretty much. Competing means facing the prospect of loosing. I would not be fighting to save an orphanage it would just be for fun.

so long as i do all right loosing is not that bad.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> yeah pretty much. Competing means facing the prospect of loosing. I would not be fighting to save an orphanage it would just be for fun.
> 
> so long as i do all right loosing is not that bad.



No Bear, the attitude is that you want to destroy the opponent. Age relies on experience, the signature move comes into play.


----------



## Dr.Smith

Transk53 said:


> No Bear, the attitude is that you want to destroy the opponent. Age relies on experience, the signature move comes into play.


Amen, and amen.


----------



## Dr.Smith

Anyone hear have tournament experience?


----------



## Steve

Dr.Smith said:


> Anyone hear have tournament experience?


I've competed in a few tournaments.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Dirty Dog

Dr.Smith said:


> Anyone hear have tournament experience?



In my younger days I did  fair bit. These days I'm generally too busy coaching students to compete even in the geriatric fat man class.
Haven't actually fought in a tourney since I was 49 or 50...


----------



## tshadowchaser

what type of tournament?  I competed in a "karate" tournament last year and will compete in 3 this year . Mostly forms now but if the competition look right I'll see if the tournament director will let me compete. Yes they do tell me to sit and judge or to walk around and act my age

MMA tournaments NO they say Im to old


----------



## Deleted member 32980

One word. Agreed. 

People call themselves mma fighters to sound cool. Cocky asses


----------



## Steve

If I were trying to be cool... an impossible task, but let's pretend...  I'd call myself a ninja.  Because ninja are way cooler than MMA fighters, and that will always be true. 

Maybe instead of MMA fighter or MMA'ist, we can call them cage ninja?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Nate the foreverman said:


> One word. Agreed.
> 
> People call themselves mma fighters to sound cool. Cocky asses



I'm just going to throw this out there... but the same sort of thing might be said about someone who claims to be a "kyudo sensei" while using a picture of a western recurve bow as their avatar (rather than a Japanese bow), while claiming to have studied a ridiculous number of arts, but apparently without any formal training. And whose life goal (according to the profile...) appears to be to become a hobo.
Sometimes it does seem that people make claims just to try to sound cool.

So let's clear this up, shall we? How old are you? What art or arts have you actually been trained in, and to what degree?
Reading a book or seeing something in a movie won't be considered training, just so you know. 

As far as MMA being "made up", I don't think it is any more than ALL arts are "made up". Like any other system, it has evolved over the course of time and builds on the experience of those who practice it. It's not the first time people have combined training from more than one system. It won't be the last. It is undeniably the current fad, much as Muay Thai was a while back, and ninjutsu before that, and, and, and... 
I suspect there will always be a competitive venue which is open to pretty much anyone who cares to sign the release forms (that's the soul of the MMA world) but we're already seeing people awarding belt ranks and adopting other aspects of the more traditional arts in the MMA world.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> If I were trying to be cool... an impossible task, but let's pretend...  I'd call myself a ninja.  Because ninja are way cooler than MMA fighters, and that will always be true.
> 
> Maybe instead of MMA fighter or MMA'ist, we can call them cage ninja?



They can't be cage ninjas... we can see them!


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> They can't be cage ninjas... we can see them!



i think people who call themselves cage ninjas would actually be really hard to find in a cage.

so it may still be valid.


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> I've competed in a few tournaments.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



Gi, NOGI?


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> i think people who call themselves cage ninjas would actually be really hard to find in a cage.
> 
> so it may still be valid.



If this was a Babylon 5 universe, the Dilgar Spectre would win all day and night. They have camo suits that are undetectable. Now that has to be Ninja


----------



## Steve

Gi and no gi, but mostly gi.  I prefer the pace in gi.   I'm old and slow, and grips help me to manage the pace of the match.


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Gi and no gi, but mostly gi.  I prefer the pace in gi.   I'm old and slow, and grips help me to manage the pace of the match.



So would NOGI facilitate extra slippery pace versus Gi with more resistance?


----------



## Steve

Transk53 said:


> So would NOGI facilitate extra slippery pace versus Gi with more resistance?


Absolutely. Also lacks grips


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Absolutely. Also lacks grips
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Cool.


----------



## Deleted member 32980

Wow. How dare you dishonor me. What a terrible sport you are.


----------



## Deleted member 32980

Btw. The cage ninja thing wouldn't work. They are trained only to fight. No tradition or anything is be taught to them. 

And they don't use weapons. And they are punchy


----------



## Dirty Dog

Nate the foreverman said:


> Btw. The cage ninja thing wouldn't work. They are trained only to fight. No tradition or anything is be taught to them.
> 
> And they don't use weapons. And they are punchy



Yet another subject about which you seem to be...less than well informed.
Not going to answer direct questions? I assume you know how that makes you look?


----------



## Deleted member 32980

Why should I answer someone who degrades others?


----------



## tshadowchaser

people. please refrain from rude comments and personal attacks.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Nate the foreverman said:


> Why should I answer someone who degrades others?



There is no degradation in what I wrote. You post some pretty questionable claims, and I am questioning them. You can answer, or not. If you answer, then people can draw their own conclusions. If you don't, they can draw their own conclusions about that, as well.

As for "dishonor"... if your claims are as bogus as they appear to be, then there is certainly some dishonor involved.

You will find, I think, that those who will not discuss their training tend to lack credibility here. Especially when their claims don't quite add up.


----------



## Dr.Smith

I was a fairly avid point contact tourny figter when i was a kid.  Likely shows my age.  Back then though it was still us versus them, us being hybrid systems and them being tma clubs.  Somethings never change I guess.


----------



## Dr.Smith

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think we probably mostly agree that MMA is in the process of becoming a distinct, recognizable style. There's room for disagreement regarding how far along that process it is. Depending on how you view a "style" it may be just beginning to take shape or it may be most of the way there.



  I personally agree that mma is already a style, mma as a word can be used just like the word kung fu, there are many types of kung fu there are many types of mma as well.


----------



## Dr.Smith

drop bear said:


> you are going to fight?



  Im from a school that spars alot, so every thursday i get my fight on.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Dr.Smith said:


> I personally agree that mma is already a style, mma as a word can be used just like the word kung fu, there are many types of kung fu there are many types of mma as well.



Valid point. There was a post recently (I'm not digging it up right now, but can if someone insists...) that mentioned a particular MMA gym issuing belt ranks. A quick application of my Google-Fu (which nobody uses in the cage, so it must be useless) shows that there are several places doing this. So how is getting a belt in "Jackson MMA" qualitatively different than  getting one in "Tracy Kenpo"?


----------



## Deleted member 32980

If you didn't attack me I'd be more than happy to answer and question. You already got one refferal don't get another over something petty. 

And something's that seem unreal is because I was born with a certain greatness and I achieve amazing tasks.


----------



## Dr.Smith

Nate the foreverman said:


> If you didn't attack me I'd be more than happy to answer and question. You already got one refferal don't get another over something petty.
> 
> And something's that seem unreal is because I was born with a certain greatness and I achieve amazing tasks.



  What seems to be your issue?  Are you haveing problems with other people here on the forum or what?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Nate the foreverman said:


> If you didn't attack me I'd be more than happy to answer and question. You already got one refferal don't get another over something petty.
> 
> And something's that seem unreal is because I was born with a certain greatness and I achieve amazing tasks.



You think that was directed at me?

So tell us all about your amazing greatness. 
Have to admit, I haven't really noticed any so far. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Nate the foreverman said:


> If you didn't attack me I'd be more than happy to answer and question. You already got one refferal don't get another over something petty.
> 
> And something's that seem unreal is because I was born with a certain greatness and I achieve amazing tasks.



Well,_ I_ haven't attacked you, so can you tell _me_ what training you have had? I'm kind of curious about the "amazing tasks" as well.


----------



## Transk53

Nate the foreverman said:


> If you didn't attack me I'd be more than happy to answer and question. You already got one refferal don't get another over something petty.
> 
> And something's that seem unreal is because I was born with a certain greatness and I achieve amazing tasks.



Hey man, take it down a notch. There many Sharks around here. A few Tigers I would think, just poised to take the Seal. You be careful now


----------



## Dr.Smith

Although i will say my instructor is pretty awesome too, he also dosent explain himself to people, its kinda how he lives his life.


----------



## jks9199

Nate the foreverman said:


> If you didn't attack me I'd be more than happy to answer and question. You already got one refferal don't get another over something petty.
> 
> And something's that seem unreal is because I was born with a certain greatness and I achieve amazing tasks.


Anyone who feels that they have been the victim of a personal attack in violation of the Martial Talk Rules should use the Report To Moderator feature.  Each report is assessed and discussed in detail by the Moderation Team, and appropriate actions taken.  We don't disclose what's done to someone -- but we do take all reports seriously.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Nate the foreverman said:


> IAnd something's that seem unreal is because I was born with a certain greatness and I achieve amazing tasks.


If you were born with greatness then what happened to you?


----------



## RTKDCMB

RTKDCMB said:


> Post deleted


----------



## Buka

Dr.Smith said:


> Anyone hear have tournament experience?



73 - 02, points, ring, boxing, jits. Pretty much got my *** whooped in everything at one time or another. Whole lot of fun, though. Ain't it always?


----------



## Transk53

Buka said:


> 73 - 02, points, ring, boxing, jits. Pretty much got my *** whooped in everything at one time or another. Whole lot of fun, though. Ain't it always?



Depends who is whooping you I guess


----------



## Deleted member 32980

Why would make you say that? Is something funny?


----------



## Steve

Nate, what's on your mind, buddy?  Do you have something to add to this discussion regarding MMA?


----------



## Orange Lightning

Transk53 said:


> This is a very strange thread. So for example, when I go back to Wing Chun and probably in six months or so, if I added a knee practising Chi Sau, would that be in affect be making things up. Sorry I just fail to see that, surely the knee is a add on and has no tangible affect on Wing Chun? Surely if MMA was making things up as it goes along, where is the coherence in that. Someone tries a new move been made up, a kick to the neck for example would likely paralyse. Sorry, I just don't get it.
> 
> A Martial Art is based on coherence honed by generations, making something up on the fly is all well and good, but has to based on coherence of whatever art you do. The sandbox is simply not that vast. Is MMA not made up of Boxers, Wrestlers and Grappler's, what new move made up could possibly be safe on the fly. Rambling over, going to go and be confused.com elsewhere.



It is a little odd right? As far as I'm concerned, style just your strategy and a set of techniques that let you employ it. Tossing a right cross in the middle of a kung fu escapade surely doesn't mean that you're no longer practicing kung fu?


----------



## Transk53

Orange Lightning said:


> It is a little odd right? As far as I'm concerned, style just your strategy and a set of techniques that let you employ it. Tossing a right cross in the middle of a kung fu escapade surely doesn't mean that you're no longer practicing kung fu?



Well, if I through a right cross while in a Kung Fu escapade, it would likely be just a glancing push. But then I would understand the question from my perspective. So yeah, it would not be a Kung Fu move, just misdirection. Which would probably mean the practitioner is loosing and probably desperate.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Steve said:


> Gi and no gi, but mostly gi.  I prefer the pace in gi.   I'm old and slow, and grips help me to manage the pace of the match.


Agree! For older people (like myself), the Gi environment can slow down the pace quite a lot. IMO, both Gi and no Gi can test different kind of skills. In the

- Gi environment, the moment that you can grab on your opponent, he has to fight you and he can no longer hopping around and avoid fighting. The Gi can also give you a nice pulling to set up your throw. When you get a dead lock, you may have to spend some energy to break your opponent's grips apart.
- no Gi environment, since you can't use stiff arms to hold on your opponent, each round will move very fast. You will spend less energy in each round but when your opponent attacks, you have to respond fast.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Dr.Smith said:


> Anyone hear have tournament experience?


If you are still young, you should accumulate as much tournament experience as possible. 

1984 was the last year that I competed myself. After that I became Shuai-Chiao (Chinese wrestling) and Sanda coach and no longer competed.

In

- 1984, I took my US Shuai-Chiao (Chinese wrestling) team to compete in Taiwan (Taipei, Kaohsiung, Tainan).
- 1985, I took my US Shuai-Chiao (Chinese wrestling) team to compete in China (Beijing, Hangzhou, Shanghai).
- 2004, I took my Shuai-Chiao (Chinese wrestling)  team to compete in Rome, Italy.
- 2006, I took my Sanda team to compete in Taipei, Taiwan.

Here is a short clip for my US Shuai-Chiao (Chinese wrestling) team visited China back in 1984.


----------



## Transk53

Wow.


----------



## Orange Lightning

Transk53 said:


> Well, if I through a right cross while in a Kung Fu escapade, it would likely be just a glancing push. But then I would understand the question from my perspective. So yeah, it would not be a Kung Fu move, just misdirection. Which would probably mean the practitioner is loosing and probably desperate.



 
Not what I meant. Even if a move that slightly deviates from how it's taught in a style's method, it doesn't exactly mean you are no longer performing that art the moment you perform it. 
If you super traditionalist, then sure, for that one moment, your doing boxing and then you switch back to kung fu the moment the punch is over. IMO, I can be doing any art, and as long as the move can fit within the style, you're still basically doing that art. Technically speaking, that move that isn't explicitly taught in your art could be labeled as a move from a different art, like the right cross. And technically speaking, it is. But let's say that in the exact scenario where you used it, it fit into the method or strategy of your style. It really only worked because your style and skill with it paved the way for that move to be executed. Does that mean you aren't doing your style? I don't think so.
Perhaps kung fu was a bad example. I don't know anything about kung fu. I really thought we were on the same page on that one though.


----------



## Transk53

Orange Lightning said:


> Not what I meant. Even if a move that slightly deviates from how it's taught in a style's method, it doesn't exactly mean you are no longer performing that art the moment you perform it.
> If you super traditionalist, then sure, for that one moment, your doing boxing and then you switch back to kung fu the moment the punch is over. IMO, I can be doing any art, and as long as the move can fit within the style, you're still basically doing that art. Technically speaking, that move that isn't explicitly taught in your art could be labeled as a move from a different art, like the right cross. And technically speaking, it is. But let's say that in the exact scenario where you used it, it fit into the method or strategy of your style. It really only worked because your style and skill with it paved the way for that move to be executed. Does that mean you aren't doing your style? I don't think so.
> Perhaps kung fu was a bad example. I don't know anything about kung fu. I really thought we were on the same page on that one though.



I like that reply. Keep with it because I am confident that you will find you're path. Doing your style yes. But maybe like myself, you need to understand the martial arts better. You do not understand my method and I am not a martial artist. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Orange Lightning

Transk53 said:


> I like that reply. Keep with it because I am confident that you will find you're path. Doing your style yes. But maybe like myself, you need to understand the martial arts better. You do not understand my method and I am not a martial artist. Sorry for the confusion.


Well, I'm still a little confused. But ok.  
Thanks too.... I think.


----------



## drop bear

Orange Lightning said:


> Not what I meant. Even if a move that slightly deviates from how it's taught in a style's method, it doesn't exactly mean you are no longer performing that art the moment you perform it.
> If you super traditionalist, then sure, for that one moment, your doing boxing and then you switch back to kung fu the moment the punch is over. IMO, I can be doing any art, and as long as the move can fit within the style, you're still basically doing that art. Technically speaking, that move that isn't explicitly taught in your art could be labeled as a move from a different art, like the right cross. And technically speaking, it is. But let's say that in the exact scenario where you used it, it fit into the method or strategy of your style. It really only worked because your style and skill with it paved the way for that move to be executed. Does that mean you aren't doing your style? I don't think so.
> Perhaps kung fu was a bad example. I don't know anything about kung fu. I really thought we were on the same page on that one though.



Except we train specifically in mma as a different system. The same as kung fu uses moves either from other systems or similar to other systems but is still kung fu.


----------



## ShotoNoob

jks9199 said:


> Maybe a different word than "made up" is in order.  Mixed Martial Arts is becoming an assembled, eclectic martial art.  It draws on ring experience and modern sport training methods to prepare participants for fighting in various sports environments and rule sets that allow a wide range of combative techniques to be used.


|
The reason I got so good at karate is I didn't dwell on the obvious.... I know you guys can hold a conversation but come on.
|
Right above in the quote is a great summation.  The majority of what MMA draws upon is established martial fighting styles.  The competitors, the fighters, draw upon same, evolve their own style & interpretation and with respect to the environment they are competing in.... the so-called Octagon.  Trainers & coaches like Greg Jackson, et al, may design some new stylistic fighting tactics, etc.
|
I'm excited about the upcoming Machida / Rockhold bout.  Where we have the traditional karate base + MMA arts vs. American kickboxing + MMA arts....  what's to argue?


----------



## Transk53

Orange Lightning said:


> Well, I'm still a little confused. But ok.
> Thanks too.... I think.



Yeah I can confuse myself while thinking of trying not to confuse myself lol


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Except we train specifically in mma as a different system. The same as kung fu uses moves either from other systems or similar to other systems but is still kung fu.



Probably asked this before, but don't remember. When you started MMA, did you like forget what you trained previously and viewed MMA as complete new beginning?


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Probably asked this before, but don't remember. When you started MMA, did you like forget what you trained previously and viewed MMA as complete new beginning?



Yeah pretty much. But I was doing some pretty craptastic stuff previously.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Yeah pretty much. But I was doing some pretty craptastic stuff previously.


 
I am making a massive assumption here, yeah I know the sucker punch, but did you feel that a singular path with a TMA, perhaps could still feel a little disjointed. IE mixing it up not only makes sense, but feels more. Like a wrestler that leans to punch for example?


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> I am making a massive assumption here, yeah I know the sucker punch, but did you feel that a singular path with a TMA, perhaps could still feel a little disjointed. IE mixing it up not only makes sense, but feels more. Like a wrestler that leans to punch for example?



Yeah I could wrestle/kickbox and get a result. But I would loose the finesse that comes with combining it correctly.

Even when we first started with our bjj coach. There was a bjj way to do things and a mma way. So when we were doing mma there was real differences.


----------



## TheArtofDave

Cross training would be very effective in MMA. Mostly stand up and ground are focused on. And maybe the technique isn't a "superman punch" but called that simply because that's what it looks like.

MMA is not made up. You need to have at least 3 years of martial arts training to be effective. Or go to a gym that has a class to learn bjj Muay Thai, boxing, and whatever other martial art or conditioning program they teach. Doesn't necessarily mean you are going to fight. You could be in it for fitness only. Or strictly for self defense.


----------



## drop bear

TheArtofDave said:


> Cross training would be very effective in MMA. Mostly stand up and ground are focused on. And maybe the technique isn't a "superman punch" but called that simply because that's what it looks like.
> 
> MMA is not made up. You need to have at least 3 years of martial arts training to be effective. Or go to a gym that has a class to learn bjj Muay Thai, boxing, and whatever other martial art or conditioning program they teach. Doesn't necessarily mean you are going to fight. You could be in it for fitness only. Or strictly for self defense.








Kane hober at six months of training MMA no previous martial arts experience. This is his second fight.


----------



## TheArtofDave

Every body learns at their own pace but thats just a general figure. Not every one who gets into competitive fighting is going to pick it up at 6 months.

Results may vary is a better term.


----------



## marques

MMA is becoming a combat sport in itself, like Boxing or Wrestling. The rules make the combat sport. You change the rules, the sport will change. You put rules in Martial Arts, it becomes a sport...


----------



## Dr.Smith

This topic will never end and is almost completely pointless to talk about on a martial arts forum anymore these days.   Something that never seems to get clarification during these conversations as to what exactly mma is or isn't is the fact that doing martial arts does not make you a good fighter, neither does lifting weights or running.  A person could do tkd for twenty years and still not be able to fight his way out of a papper sack.  The so called mma style is exactly the same thing, and honestly all of the noise I hear about it is just that IMO.
   Mma is very very broad term, its also extremely generic and could truthfully be used to describe any of the hybrid arts out there.  Guys who just practice the stuff they see in the cage is mma I suppose but frankly who's teaching them, where did they learn it from, it actually has a history and comes from somewhere.
  Now that I said that let's remember that the mma rule set allows all arts and styles no question, if that's the case then how on earth can people say they only do mma answer is they do a hybrid martial art that should have a name and they fight in mma matches.  There we go.


----------



## Hyoho

MMA Mixed Martial Adaptation?


----------



## Dr.Smith

Hyoho said:


> MMA Mixed Martial Adaptation?


Yea basically it really is.  All the stuff about martial arts evolving under pressure testing is a joke only a noon would buy into.  People have done things like boxing and jujitsu for ..... Oh idk since it first came out. Ever heard of bartitsu, what a joke these guys think they've created something that's been around for ever.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> Yea basically it really is.  All the stuff about martial arts evolving under pressure testing is a joke only a noon would buy into.  People have done things like boxing and jujitsu for ..... Oh idk since it first came out. Ever heard of bartitsu, what a joke these guys think they've created something that's been around for ever.



It is like making a cake. People use different ingredients and come up with their own thing. But the ingredients are out there already.

Otherwise most martial arts are a hybrid of something if you go back far enough.

Now martial arts evolves differently under different pressure testing.

We have never had pressure testing of a hybrid on this scale before.


----------



## Dr.Smith

You can't really believe that lols.  The truth is far different than that.  Martial artists evolve through pressure testing, judo, boxing, karate and all the other martial arts have already been pressure tested a hundred years ago.  The mma guys can't stand to exhist in a community with neighbors like hybrid martial arts, they gotta throw rocks and claim its not pressure tested...what a joke on all of us.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

drop bear said:


> It is like making a cake. People use different ingredients and come up with their own thing. But the ingredients are out there already.
> 
> Otherwise most martial arts are a hybrid of something if you go back far enough.
> 
> Now martial arts evolves differently under different pressure testing.
> 
> We have never had pressure testing of a hybrid on this scale before.





Dr.Smith said:


> You can't really believe that lols.



Assuming your post was a response to drop bear's immediately above it - yes, I'm quite certain he can believe it, since the historical record bears it out.

"Hybrid" martial arts are nothing new. A large percentage of extant martial arts started out as mixtures of previously existing arts.

"Pressure testing" is nothing new. Neither is pressure testing in the form of challenge matches against other stylists.

What's _new_ about modern MMA is the scale of the thing. If you added together all the fights of Maeda's career to all the Gracie challenge matches in Brazil to the Lebell/Savage fight to Sam McVea's "all-in" fights to any fights to all the challenge matches taken part in by Bartitsu practitioners to all the challenge matches taken part in by JKD practitioners to all the other mixed art matches allowing both grappling and full contact striking prior to the 1980s they wouldn't approach the sheer numbers of modern MMA. Previously such matches were rare, isolated, special events. Now we have hundreds of professional MMA fights and thousands of amateur fights every year. Those fights bring fighters from all over the world and representatives of any martial art may choose to participate. Furthermore, high-quality video of these matches is readily available and fighters use such video to prepare for competition.

This combination of factors - a large number of fighters from a wide variety of backgrounds taking part in a large number of fights, studying the results of those fights, and adjusting their training as a result has caused the sport/art to evolve at a remarkable pace. If you were to travel back in time to the 90s, grab the winners of the first few UFCs in their prime and bring them back to the present day, they would get destroyed by today's top fighters.

I'm not going to argue that MMA is the "best" or "totally original" or anything like that. I am saying that drop bear's points about the scale of modern MMA and its resultant rapid evolution are totally accurate.


----------



## Dr.Smith

Tony Dismukes said:


> Assuming your post was a response to drop bear's immediately above it - yes, I'm quite certain he can believe it, since the historical record bears it out.
> 
> "Hybrid" martial arts are nothing new. A large percentage of extant martial arts started out as mixtures of previously existing arts.
> 
> "Pressure testing" is nothing new. Neither is pressure testing in the form of challenge matches against other stylists.
> 
> What's _new_ about modern MMA is the scale of the thing. If you added together all the fights of Maeda's career to all the Gracie challenge matches in Brazil to the Lebell/Savage fight to Sam McVea's "all-in" fights to any fights to all the challenge matches taken part in by Bartitsu practitioners to all the challenge matches taken part in by JKD practitioners to all the other mixed art matches allowing both grappling and full contact striking prior to the 1980s they wouldn't approach the sheer numbers of modern MMA. Previously such matches were rare, isolated, special events. Now we have hundreds of professional MMA fights and thousands of amateur fights every year. Those fights bring fighters from all over the world and representatives of any martial art may choose to participate. Furthermore, high-quality video of these matches is readily available and fighters use such video to prepare for competition.
> 
> This combination of factors - a large number of fighters from a wide variety of backgrounds taking part in a large number of fights, studying the results of those fights, and adjusting their training as a result has caused the sport/art to evolve at a remarkable pace. If you were to travel back in time to the 90s, grab the winners of the first few UFCs in their prime and bring them back to the present day, they would get destroyed by today's top fighters.
> 
> I'm not going to argue that MMA is the "best" or "totally original" or anything like that. I am saying that drop bear's points about the scale of modern MMA and its resultant rapid evolution are totally accurate.



Please, don't anyone take this the wrong way but frankly I don't really care.  Its a pointless topic filled to the ceiling with pride and hubris.  Actually this whole topic of conversation makes me want to quit martial arts all together if you want to know the truth.  Get over it, get over your self or selves mma isnt anything new, and its a boreing beat up worn out topic only argued by noons wanna bees.  Its a stupid play on words game that does nothing other than play people against eachother mma is an acronym I wish never exhausted.


----------



## Dr.Smith

My auto correct butchered that post sorry.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Dr.Smith said:


> Please, don't anyone take this the wrong way but frankly I don't really care.  Its a pointless topic filled to the ceiling with pride and hubris.  Actually this whole topic of conversation makes me want to quit martial arts all together if you want to know the truth.  Get over it, get over your self or selves mma isnt anything new, and its a boreing beat up worn out topic only argued by noons wanna bees.  Its a stupid play on words game that does nothing other than play people against eachother mma is an acronym I wish never exhausted.


If you don't care about MMA, then why are you bothering to comment on a thread about MMA? There are plenty of threads on other topics currently active. There's no rule saying you have to participate in a discussion that has no interest for you.

BTW - if you are opposed to hubris and people being played against each other, then it might be a good idea to avoid calling folks "no ones" and "wannabees." That's not the sort of verbiage normally associated with humble people who are trying to get along with others. Just saying ...


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> You can't really believe that lols.  The truth is far different than that.  Martial artists evolve through pressure testing, judo, boxing, karate and all the other martial arts have already been pressure tested a hundred years ago.  The mma guys can't stand to exhist in a community with neighbors like hybrid martial arts, they gotta throw rocks and claim its not pressure tested...what a joke on all of us.



No. I claim the martial arts that do not fight are not pressure tested.

Pressure tested judo,boxing and karate are neighbours of mma. We have judo,boxers and karate guys training or teaching in our mma club.

And those martial arts don't have to hide behind lineage. They work now. They will be pressure tested today.


----------



## Dr.Smith

[QUOTE="Tony Dismukes, post: 1710574, member: 752say in  you don't care about MMA, then why are you bothering to comment on a thread about MMA? There are plenty of threads on other topics currently active. There's no rule saying you have to participate in a discussion that has no interest for you.

BTW - if you are opposed to hubris and people being played against each other, then it might be a good idea to avoid calling folks "no ones" and "wannabees." That's not the sort of verbiage normally associated with humble people who are trying to get along with others. Just saying ...[/QUOTE]
No offense but you badger like a narc lols, just sayin.  Its a pop fad price of language, that's it, and using the popular vanacular makes people think their smart or part of the real thing.  Believe. Me sir I mean you no disrespect but I think its pretty funny to hear people talking about pressure testing a martial art, again the arts used in mma have been pressure tested over and over and over and over and over Andover until the topic of pressure testing is not only moot but frankly laughable when you hear people talk about it in regards to mma. Pressure testing a fighter is a different story altogether.
This conversation is making all of us stupider BTW, just sayn bro.


----------



## Dr.Smith

drop bear said:


> No. I claim the martial arts that do not fight are not pressure tested.
> 
> Pressure tested judo,boxing and karate are neighbours of mma. We have judo,boxers and karate guys training or teaching in our mma club.
> 
> And those martial arts don't have to hide behind lineage. They work now. They will be pressure tested today.



What martial arts are you attempting to call out exactly.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> What martial arts are you attempting to call out exactly.



I am not calling out a martial art. I am critiquing a training method.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> [QUOTE="Tony Dismukes, post: 1710574, member: 752say in  you don't care about MMA, then why are you bothering to comment on a thread about MMA? There are plenty of threads on other topics currently active. There's no rule saying you have to participate in a discussion that has no interest for you.
> 
> BTW - if you are opposed to hubris and people being played against each other, then it might be a good idea to avoid calling folks "no ones" and "wannabees." That's not the sort of verbiage normally associated with humble people who are trying to get along with others. Just saying ...


No offense but you badger like a narc lols, just sayin.  Its a pop fad price of language, that's it, and using the popular vanacular makes people think their smart or part of the real thing.  Believe. Me sir I mean you no disrespect but I think its pretty funny to hear people talking about pressure testing a martial art, again the arts used in mma have been pressure tested over and over and over and over and over Andover until the topic of pressure testing is not only moot but frankly laughable when you hear people talk about it in regards to mma. Pressure testing a fighter is a different story altogether.
This conversation is making all of us stupider BTW, just sayn bro.[/QUOTE]

We just call that training.


----------



## Dr.Smith

drop bear said:


> I am not calling out a martial art. I am critiquing a training method.



  Dude that's pretty lame lols. Full contact pit fighting isn't a training method in the least of bits it a self defense situation at the least and more like a full on combat scenerio honestly.  You sound like the kinda guy that believes martial arts is about fighting, the truth is it really isn't about fighting at all, the only thing that makes mma anything to do with fighting is people who step in the ring, same as boxing same as contact karate, you know anything about contact karate from the seventies or eighties, I guess that covers pressure testing for tkd and karate then, I'm ready to move on how about you dude the crap gets old OK.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> Dude that's pretty lame lols.



Why would critiquing aspects of martial arts be lame?


----------



## Dr.Smith

First of all I should apologize for being in a foul mood. Second of all I don't see anything you've really critiqued other than some kind of statement that certain martial arts that don't have  full contact events went in pressure tested, and as a martial artist I have to say that a load of horse **** to be honest.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> First of all I should apologize for being in a foul mood. Second of all I don't see anything you've really critiqued other than some kind of statement that certain martial arts that don't have  full contact events went in pressure tested, and as a martial artist I have to say that a load of horse **** to be honest.



Boxing judo and karate have full contact events.


----------



## Buka

Dr.Smith said:


> A person could do tkd for twenty years and still not be able to fight his way out of a papper sack.



I've known a lot of TKD guys. By my experience, I can't fathom this to be correct. 
If so, I'm quite sad.


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> I've known a lot of TKD guys. By my experience, I can't fathom this to be correct.
> If so, I'm quite sad.



Depends on the tkd. In Australia in the 80s 90s it used to be the weapon of choice for gangsters and enforcers. So it was used by hard men for real fighting.

Its reputation has mellowed a bit since then.


----------



## Dr.Smith

Hey I'm not picking on tkd.  I know a few tkd guys you wouldn't try to mess with.  Sorry if I single out a specific martial art I didn't mean to.
My point comes from the heart when I say that martial arts really doesn't have a whole whole lot to do with fighting.  Literally I've seen guys train m.a. of all kinds for ten plus years and pretty much any highschool tough guy could take them.  Its not enough to have martial skill, its not enough to lift weights and its not enough to simple be put in the ring its not even enough to do all three of those things. There has to be some fight in YOU, and you can't drive that into a person with a sledge hammer if their not willing to put up a fight then the dog won't hunt...period, bottom line.
   As for the comment about judo, boxing and wrestling I think its safe to say that its self explained, those arts are tried and try it doesn't need us to put them to the test, mma  style didn't need to be pressure tested the people using it in an mma match needed to be pressure tested.
  If a person would just slow down long enough to really do their homework it wouldn't take very long to figure out that there has always been a mixed martial arts environment somewhere at sometime, if you don't the idea my friends look at the pancration movement or the vale tudo movement, still not convinced then wrap your head around wrestling and traveling carnivals of the twenties and thirties.  The only difference is the coverage that mma gets and the pop trends that follow along with it, that's really it.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Dr.Smith said:


> I'm ready to move on how about you dude the crap gets old OK



You can move on any time you like. If you think that practitioners and aficionados of MMA are going to stop discussing the topic just because you drop in and call us some names, then you might need to adjust your expectations.

Then again, you're still posting in this thread. Does that mean you've changed your mind and would like to participate in the conversation after all?



Dr.Smith said:


> all the other martial arts have already been pressure tested a hundred years ago





Dr.Smith said:


> There has to be some fight in YOU, and you can't drive that into a person with a sledge hammer if their not willing to put up a fight then the dog won't hunt...period, bottom line.





Dr.Smith said:


> if you don't the idea my friends look at the pancration movement or the vale tudo movement, still not convinced then wrap your head around wrestling and traveling carnivals of the twenties and thirties. The only difference is the coverage that mma gets and the pop trends that follow along with it, that's really it.



I've got replies to all of these, but it's not worth typing them up if you "don't care" about the topic and think that I'm "badgering you like a narc" for replying to your comments. Let me know if you are actually going to be part of the discussion, and if so I'll post my answers.


----------



## Dr.Smith

Look at your own profile quote by Hillary Book, good quote BTW.  Just so its made clear, I don't have any trouble with mma conversations, I like mma a lot. Trouble with mma is that in the past ten years its attempted to choke out its competition by totally invalidating every other martial art around it with the old its not pressure tested statement which has become the creed and motto of every single tom dick and hairy on every forum and in every club in the world its like a cool slang phrase like dude in eighties or what's up in the nineties.  Put some pressure on yourself lols, boxing didn't need to be reinvented or explored all over again, who are you actually kidding, I sparred for years in a hybrid system how long do you think it took me to catch on to the fact that boxing is what works, in fact ever heard of kick boxing...again ever seen full contact 'karate,' from the seventies and eighties...its a total joke to listen to people spew and regurgitate how mma has solved the what works and what doesn't work issue in the martial arts a true joke, and it was played on a truly clueless generation during a bad time in history and the people at the top of the ladder made a bunch of money for themselves and their friends in the fashion industry not to mention the Hollywood b style movies that came from the whole mess.  The truth isn't what you want, you want what you want, you want validation you want people to see you as valid, in order to do that you make other ma seem invalid, and again and again and again I'm going to tell you that if you really think the martial arts in general have anything to do with making you fighter then your as crazy as the one that flew over the cookoos nest sorry to be harsh but really.....Who do you thank you are, most of this thread is so disconnected from reality that it borders on some identity disorder.


----------



## Dr.Smith

BTW, save your replies lols, I'm never going to validate you or them, neither should any other mentally healthy adult.  By your statement and standards society is a truly strange place.  I'm interested in as to what you think about other topics, say body peirceing, tattooing, medical marijuana and the civil war for a kick. I think the bottom line is that most mma is a side show unfortunately, it was created to be a spectical and it has was done on a huge scale.  BTW I dig ole time strong man stuff but let's try to keep it real can we I mean dad blame.


----------



## Dr.Smith

drop bear said:


> There seems to be some confusion regarding mma and making stuff up as we go along.
> 
> mma as it stands now Is a result of an art adapting to a competition. Rather than a competition deriving from an art.
> 
> so the art itself is a fluid concept. There is a constant testing innovating and re testing of ideas. The contest is the crucible in which the art is created.
> 
> this fluidity means that new terms and new ideas are created constantly..
> 
> yes we make stuff up as we go along. Different gyms will call the same techniques different things. Or have entirely new techniques.
> 
> so in doing mma or talking to a mmaer you may have to deal with terms like the abracadabra kick or the vertical round house.
> 
> my point still is here so long as you can do it. And so long as you can make yourself understood. The names are less important.



 Wow, this is really something.  Lols where do you guys come up with this stuff, I mean you sound like your a scientist inttoduceing some kind of wonder food or drug. Mma as you know it came from Brazil to be exact where it had already been perfected in vale tudo fights and the gracies new that fact they just didn't want to validate it before you.  They sold you a sense of personal discovery about fighting and the martial arts that's as false as it can be, tons of hybrid systems in the states were using boxing, jujitsu and karate for years and years and years, not idiots either, educated, athletic, men in law enforcement, the military and the library were aware of the effectiveness of mixing martial arts, the only thing your version of mma does kid is give you a good place to watch fights, I don't need a pressure test lols, you go fight in an mma match if your so concerned about pressure.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Dr.Smith said:


> you want validation you want people to see you as valid, in order to do that you make other ma seem invalid



I've been a member of this site for 10 years. I invite you to look through my postings and find even a single example of me being disrespectful towards other martial arts or trying to "invalidate" them.




Dr.Smith said:


> BTW, save your replies lols, I'm never going to validate you or them



I'm not sure why in the world you would think that I need your "validation." It might have escaped your notice, but what we have here is a forum for discussion. That means one person says something, another person replies, and so on. In this way, we can exchange views, entertain, and educate each other. If we lose interest in a given topic, we simply move on to another conversation.

You seem to be under the impression that the proper flow of conversation is for you to make sweeping pronouncements (including insulting characterizations of other commenters) and dismiss all replies by sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "La la la, I can't hear you."

I strongly encourage you to decide whether you actually want to take part in the current discussion. If not, there are plenty of other active conversations on the forum. (We no longer have the politics subforum to discuss non-martial arts topics as medical marijuana or the civil war, but there are plenty of other places on the web to do that.)


----------



## Steve

Dr.Smith said:


> This topic will never end and is almost completely pointless to talk about on a martial arts forum anymore these days.   Something that never seems to get clarification during these conversations as to what exactly mma is or isn't is the fact that doing martial arts does not make you a good fighter, neither does lifting weights or running.  A person could do tkd for twenty years and still not be able to fight his way out of a papper sack.  The so called mma style is exactly the same thing, and honestly all of the noise I hear about it is just that IMO.
> Mma is very very broad term, its also extremely generic and could truthfully be used to describe any of the hybrid arts out there.  Guys who just practice the stuff they see in the cage is mma I suppose but frankly who's teaching them, where did they learn it from, it actually has a history and comes from somewhere.
> Now that I said that let's remember that the mma rule set allows all arts and styles no question, if that's the case then how on earth can people say they only do mma answer is they do a hybrid martial art that should have a name and they fight in mma matches.  There we go.


 MMA is actually a very specific term.  It's not abstract at all.   It refers to a sport that is governed by various sanctioning bodies and are grounded in the unified ruleset that has been adopted throughout the world.  There are minor variations on the ruleset from place to place, but it's as easy to know you're talking about MMA as it is to know you're talking about western boxing, freestyle wrestling, or any other well defined, combat sport.

MMA does not refer to a hybrid art that doesn't relate to the sport of MMA.  That is an intentional misuse of the term.  Whether to capitalize on teh popularity of the sport or just through ignorance, the term very specifically refers to the sport that is governed by various sanctioning bodies grounded in the unified ruleset.

As I mentioned earlier, if you're mixing up styles of martial arts for some purpose other than relating to the sport of MMA, you're just cross training.


----------



## Hyoho

Steve said:


> MMA is actually a very specific term.  It's not abstract at all.   It refers to a sport that is governed by various sanctioning bodies and are grounded in the unified ruleset that has been adopted throughout the world.  There are minor variations on the ruleset from place to place, but it's as easy to know you're talking about MMA as it is to know you're talking about western boxing, freestyle wrestling, or any other well defined, combat sport.
> 
> MMA does not refer to a hybrid art that doesn't relate to the sport of MMA.  That is an intentional misuse of the term.  Whether to capitalize on teh popularity of the sport or just through ignorance, the term very specifically refers to the sport that is governed by various sanctioning bodies grounded in the unified ruleset.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, if you're mixing up styles of martial arts for some purpose other than relating to the sport of MMA, you're just cross training.


If MMA is specific MA is not. It just has to be the worst translation I have ever seen to describe Japanese Budo/Kobudo. I never ever use the term and just say Budo as do most that are serious practitioners.


----------



## Steve

Hyoho said:


> If MMA is specific MA is not. It just has to be the worst translation I have ever seen to describe Japanese Budo/Kobudo. I never ever use the term and just say Budo as do most that are serious practitioners.


   Is this in response to my post?  I don't understand what you're responding to, Hyoho.  I didn't even use the term MA.

I will say that whatever root it has, words and languages are constantly evolving.  It may have meant something once, but it mostly only matters what it means now.  That's any term, whether MMA, MA or anything else.


----------



## Dr.Smith

This is a total and complete text book show of holding on to testosterone driven attachments to validation by the world, in this case you seek that validation by aligning yourselves with mma, something violent on television its a name tag you wear, it says hello my name is-I DO MMA.  Let it go, the only person doing MMA is the guy in the ring putting on the show and generating revenue for a fight producer everybody else is doing hybrid combinations of the same ole same ole martial arts that have been around for ages.

  You can't get over it because your terrorfied to let it go, it would kill something deep within you to admit the truth about krotty and mma and who you are and what the real world is actually about.


----------



## Xue Sheng

I'm not sure if this is intentional or unintentional but do you realize your posts here are making you out to be a bit of a troll


----------



## Dr.Smith

Steve said:


> Is this in e to my post?  I don't understand what you're responding to, Hyoho.  I didn't even use the term MA.
> 
> I will sa. that whatever root it has, words and languages are constantly evolving.  It may have meant something once, but it mostly only matters what it means now.  That's any term, whether MMA, MA or anything else.[/QUOTE other martial
> 
> 
> Steve said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this in response to my post?  I don't understand what you're responding to, Hyoho.  I didn't even use the term MA.
> 
> I will say that whatever root it has, words and languages are constantly evolving.  It may have meant something once, but it mostly only matters what it means now.  That's any term, whether MMA, MA or anything else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve said:
> 
> 
> 
> MMA is actually a very specific term.  It's not abstract at all.   It refers to a sport that is governed by various sanctioning bodies and are grounded in the unified ruleset that has been adopted throughout the world.  There are minor variations on the ruleset from place to place, but it's as easy to know you're talking about MMA as it is to know you're talking about western boxing, freestyle wrestling, or any other well defined, combat sport.
> 
> MMA does not refer to a hybrid art that doesn't relate to the sport of MMA.  That is an intentional misuse of the term.  Whether to capitalize on teh popularity of the sport or just through ignorance, the term very specifically refers to the sport that is governed by various sanctioning bodies grounded in the unified ruleset.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, if you're mixing up styles of martial arts for some purpose other than relating to the sport of MMA, you're just cross training.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

   Ok, first of all i should point out i dont have a problem with mma style training just to put that into perspective i have some experience with it and i liked it,  actually id do it again.
 alright second of all if your so hip and mainstream with your vanacular then you should be mentally valid enough or well enough to handle a conversation about mma without feeling the need to rnc anyone elses vocabulary,  i mean a car is a car but they can have names to right and they can perform defferently with different drivers right kinda like motorcyles really.


----------



## Dr.Smith

Xue I'm eng said:


> I'm not sure if this is intentional or unintentional but do you realize your posts here are making you out to be a bit of a troll


I get that, im not trolling, I'm as landing my ground.  Honestly I think there's a mental health issue involved with this whole thread, I actually went for a walk at the pond to try and put this thread into perspective, and my conclusion is that we all have attachments to things that cause pain, we need to let those things go.  I'm fine with people calling their style what ever they want to call it but I'm going to draw the line when they start telling people what they can and cannot say about something as mundane as krotty.


----------



## Steve

Dr.Smith said:


> Ok, first of all i should point out i dont have a problem with mma style training just to put that into perspective i have some experience with it and i liked it,  actually id do it again.
> alright second of all if your so hip and mainstream with your vanacular then you should be mentally valid enough or well enough to handle a conversation about mma without feeling the need to rnc anyone elses vocabulary,  i mean a car is a car but they can have names to right and they can perform defferently with different drivers right kinda like motorcyles really.


A car is a car, but it isn't a tricycle.  Is it?  Dogs and cats are both common, household pets, but you wouldn't mix the two words up.  Well, maybe you would, but most people wouldn't.


----------



## Steve

Dr.Smith said:


> I get that, im not trolling, I'm as landing my ground.  Honestly I think there's a mental health issue involved with this whole thread, I actually went for a walk at the pond to try and put this thread into perspective, and my conclusion is that we all have attachments to things that cause pain, we need to let those things go.  I'm fine with people calling their style what ever they want to call it but I'm going to draw the line when they start telling people what they can and cannot say about something as mundane as krotty.


 What's krotty?


----------



## Dr.Smith

Lols Steve, BTW I'd like permission to call you Mr.clean, I'm asking permission so it can be done respectfully. Anybody ever wonder why the bald guy with the ear ring was on a cleaning product....what a wonder.
To answers your question, krotty is the simple and innocent activity kids and adults do everyday and all the time and its just that simple. It krotty.


----------



## Dr.Smith

Steve said:


> A car is a car, butdon't isn't a tricycle.  Is it?  Dogs and cats are both common, household pets, but you wouldn't mix the two words up.  Well, maybe you would, but most people wouldn't.


m.a. is m.a. is m.a.- fighting is fighting is fighting. The two dont really have anything to do with one and other. You can go train at an mma gym it dosent make you a fighter, you can step into the ring and get a few wins still dosent make you a fighter, and your trike comment is kinda funny btw.


----------



## Transk53

Dr.Smith said:


> m.a. is m.a. is m.a.- fighting is fighting is fighting. The two dont really have anything to do with one and other. You can go train at an mma gym it dosent make you a fighter, you can step into the ring and get a few wins still dosent make you a fighter, and your trike comment is kinda funny btw.



I have always believed that while humans have the fighting instinct across the board, the majority do not in this context. Wonder if a gene is responsible where despite it is stupid, unintelligent and so forth, a person just wants to rip into someone just because they are wired that way.


----------



## Dr.Smith

Honestly transk idk, nobody really does but if you look at a lot of really great fighters, say young mike Tyson , one thing a lot of them have is nothing to lose, its like end game for them at the age of twenty, do or dieif you will, that dodoesn't mean that's what makes them good fighters it just a similar trait they share.
  All the talk on these forms about mma and tma and who's legit and who's a fraud, is all rubbish, its all for the sake of saying I'm better than you I'm valid and your invalid and not just me and you but people like me and people like you.  And all I have to say about it is just let it all go, don't worry about putting a label on everything you see, quit worrying about what people call their martial art, just let go of it.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> Hey I'm not picking on tkd.  I know a few tkd guys you wouldn't try to mess with.  Sorry if I single out a specific martial art I didn't mean to.
> My point comes from the heart when I say that martial arts really doesn't have a whole whole lot to do with fighting.  Literally I've seen guys train m.a. of all kinds for ten plus years and pretty much any highschool tough guy could take them.  Its not enough to have martial skill, its not enough to lift weights and its not enough to simple be put in the ring its not even enough to do all three of those things. There has to be some fight in YOU, and you can't drive that into a person with a sledge hammer if their not willing to put up a fight then the dog won't hunt...period, bottom line.
> As for the comment about judo, boxing and wrestling I think its safe to say that its self explained, those arts are tried and try it doesn't need us to put them to the test, mma  style didn't need to be pressure tested the people using it in an mma match needed to be pressure tested.
> If a person would just slow down long enough to really do their homework it wouldn't take very long to figure out that there has always been a mixed martial arts environment somewhere at sometime, if you don't the idea my friends look at the pancration movement or the vale tudo movement, still not convinced then wrap your head around wrestling and traveling carnivals of the twenties and thirties.  The only difference is the coverage that mma gets and the pop trends that follow along with it, that's really it.



We do a 12 week program where we take a guy off the streets train them up and put them in the ring.

So far everybody has fought.  Whether they had fight in them at the start or not.

Now they may not be brilliant technical guys or kill monsters. But everybody has fight in them if they really want to.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> Honestly transk idk, nobody really does but if you look at a lot of really great fighters, say young mike Tyson , one thing a lot of them have is nothing to lose, its like end game for them at the age of twenty, do or dieif you will, that dodoesn't mean that's what makes them good fighters it just a similar trait they share.
> All the talk on these forms about mma and tma and who's legit and who's a fraud, is all rubbish, its all for the sake of saying I'm better than you I'm valid and your invalid and not just me and you but people like me and people like you.  And all I have to say about it is just let it all go, don't worry about putting a label on everything you see, quit worrying about what people call their martial art, just let go of it.



I am better than you.

Not just because mma.


----------



## Hyoho

Steve said:


> Is this in response to my post?  I don't understand what you're responding to, Hyoho.  I didn't even use the term MA.
> 
> I will say that whatever root it has, words and languages are constantly evolving.  It may have meant something once, but it mostly only matters what it means now.  That's any term, whether MMA, MA or anything else.


What I meant was the term MMA is an abbreviation derived from MA. Another bad translation. And there you have it. Evolving, adaptation etc. I really think its time we dropped the word 'art' from any of this. MME?


----------



## Steve

Hyoho said:


> What I meant was the term MMA is an abbreviation derived from MA. Another bad translation. And there you have it. Evolving, adaptation etc. I really think its time we dropped the word 'art' from any of this. MME?


Why do that?   What do you think 'art' means?   I think you might have the wrong definition in mind.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr.Smith

[Qdon't ="drop bear, post: 1710871, member: 32080"]I am better than you.

Not just because mma.[/QUOT
Alright.


----------



## Dr.Smith

It would be a bad idea to kick the term martial arts to the curb.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> Wow, this is really something.  Lols where do you guys come up with this stuff, I mean you sound like your a scientist inttoduceing some kind of wonder food or drug. Mma as you know it came from Brazil to be exact where it had already been perfected in vale tudo fights and the gracies new that fact they just didn't want to validate it before you.  They sold you a sense of personal discovery about fighting and the martial arts that's as false as it can be, tons of hybrid systems in the states were using boxing, jujitsu and karate for years and years and years, not idiots either, educated, athletic, men in law enforcement, the military and the library were aware of the effectiveness of mixing martial arts, the only thing your version of mma does kid is give you a good place to watch fights, I don't need a pressure test lols, you go fight in an mma match if your so concerned about pressure.



I did hybrid systems. there was Zen do Kai in Australia. And it was ok.

But better martial artists are doing mma. You never got the top guys in their respective disciplines collaborating like they do now.

It is a much better refined idea. Than you tended to get previously.

By the way mma is making other arts better because of that collaboration new ideas are being integrated into traditional styles while traditional styles are being integrated into mma.


----------



## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> I get that, im not trolling, I'm as landing my ground.  Honestly I think there's a mental health issue involved with this whole thread, I actually went for a walk at the pond to try and put this thread into perspective, and my conclusion is that we all have attachments to things that cause pain, we need to let those things go.  I'm fine with people calling their style what ever they want to call it but I'm going to draw the line when they start telling people what they can and cannot say about something as mundane as krotty.



Where do you think the mental health issue lies?

How are you qualified to make a judgment?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Hyoho said:


> What I meant was the term MMA is an abbreviation derived from MA. Another bad translation.



Are you saying that the term "martial art" is a translation? Of what?



Hyoho said:


> I really think its time we dropped the word 'art' from any of this. MME?



What would the E stand for?


----------



## jks9199

drop bear said:


> I did hybrid systems. there was Zen do Kai in Australia. And it was ok.
> 
> But better martial artists are doing mma. You never got the top guys in their respective disciplines collaborating like they do now.
> 
> It is a much better refined idea. Than you tended to get previously.
> 
> By the way mma is making other arts better because of that collaboration new ideas are being integrated into traditional styles while traditional styles are being integrated into mma.


It's not at all true that there was never the level of cross polination you see today. Stories abound of Bruce Lee, Ed Parker Sr, Chuck Norris, Gene LeBell, and many others training together and sharing information in the 60s and 70s.  One difference from that training and mma is that they learned from, but didn't simply absorb, if that makes sense.  Someone might learn a techniques or sequence,  but they would still look like their core system. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## drop bear

jks9199 said:


> It's not at all true that there was never the level of cross polination you see today. Stories abound of Bruce Lee, Ed Parker Sr, Chuck Norris, Gene LeBell, and many others training together and sharing information in the 60s and 70s.  One difference from that training and mma is that they learned from, but didn't simply absorb, if that makes sense.  Someone might learn a techniques or sequence,  but they would still look like their core system.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



What geographical area would that have consisted of?


----------



## Dr.Smith

See this is what I'm talking about when I point out that there's a mental health issue at the root of most of these mma conversations.  Listen to me here. Buddhism has been a huge part of all the martial arts from Japan and China for hundreds and hundreds of years right, what does the Buddha say, the Buddha says that attachment to the things of this world cause pain.  Now I'm not a Buddhist but I gotta say that number one classas a scholar I am not going to ignore or steal from history and claim I discovered it personally in an attempt to validate myself or build my own self esteem.  Mixing combat effective arts is Not new... If you can't accept that then you have a serious problem dealing with reality, that is a mental health issue, doesn't mean your bad or less of a person it just means you have an issue.
  I'm a paranoid schizophrenic with PTSD, from my point of view I cannot afford to walk around in a world where I entertain the notion that I'm some kind martial arts founder or some kind of cutting edge martial artist lols I mean how bizarre would that make me all other things considered.
   Its simple guys, this whole thing is a play on words,  mma is an acronym that we should all be able to use when we need to describe a whole host of different martial arts, we need to get real with ourselves when we talk about this.  Love mma love watching fights love the martial arts and their rich history sorry to see it go to the dogs.


----------



## Dr.Smith

drop bear said:


> I did hybrid systems. there was Zen do Kai in Australia. And it was ok.
> 
> But better martial artists are doing mma. You never got the top guys in their respective disciplines collaborating like they do now.
> 
> It is a much better refined idea. Than you tended to get previously.
> OK some of what you said is very true, let's look at the parts of your statement that are rooted in reality and ask ourselves how we can keep that ball rolling.
> 1. You said you've done hybrid martial arts in the past...good, this means you have actual experience and training in a mixed system. This allows you to know the concept is real, not a figment of your or my imagination.
> 2. You said that better guys are doing mma, by better I assume you mean better athletes and fighters. Yes better fighters and athletes are performing in mma matches, the people you see in ufc are usually very very good fighters and athletes not always or even usually good martial artists.
> Now take the two reality based observations you made above and combine them and see what you get.  What you might get isthat , not all mma systems are the same and not all people who do them are fighters or
> 
> By the way mma is making other arts better because of that collaboration new ideas are being integrated into traditional styles while traditional styles are being integrated into mma.


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## Dr.Smith

OK, here's how I would like to continue this conversation, because I think this is valid.  In the eighties and nineties why didn't magazines black belt and inside karate every cover jujitsu and everything that was going on in calli with jujitsu tournaments, on a few ocassions they covered judo gene lebelle like he was a saint.... I find it kinda odd.


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## Tony Dismukes

jks9199 said:


> It's not at all true that there was never the level of cross polination you see today. Stories abound of Bruce Lee, Ed Parker Sr, Chuck Norris, Gene LeBell, and many others training together and sharing information in the 60s and 70s.  One difference from that training and mma is that they learned from, but didn't simply absorb, if that makes sense.  Someone might learn a techniques or sequence,  but they would still look like their core system.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



See my post #416 on page 21. There's nothing new about cross-pollination. What's new is the sheer scale of the thing in modern MMA.


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## Dr.Smith

Right there isn't anything new about any of it and that's the reality, there isn't any thing new about its magnitude either and before you go crazy just stop and be willing to open your mind for a different view.  How about the WWF or the wcw, you can't say that the ufc or any other version of mma is bigger than wrestling ever was.


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## Tony Dismukes

Dr.Smith said:


> Right there isn't anything new about any of it and that's the reality, there isn't any thing new about its magnitude either and before you go crazy just stop and be willing to open your mind for a different view.  How about the WWF or the wcw, you can't say that the ufc or any other version of mma is bigger than wrestling ever was.


I'm not quite sure of what you are trying to say here. My point was that the scale of cross-pollination and cross-art full contact testing  in modern MMA is historically unprecedented.  The WWF and WCW have nothing to do with testing or cross-pollination of any martial art. They're a form of live theatre combining soap opera with action movies.


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## Dr.Smith

OK I see where your going with that to a degree.


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## Dirty Dog

Dr.Smith said:


> Right there isn't anything new about any of it and that's the reality, there isn't any thing new about its magnitude either and before you go crazy just stop and be willing to open your mind for a different view.  How about the WWF or the wcw, you can't say that the ufc or any other version of mma is bigger than wrestling ever was.



So you're saying that UFC matches are as fake as the WWF shows?


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## Dr.Smith

[QUOT. "Dirty Dog, post: 1711190, member: 20725"]So you're saying that UFC matches are as fake as the WWF shows?[/QUOTE]
Oh no  way man, I would never nerve say something even similar to that, no sir not at all in the least.  However in terms of mixing arts professional wrestling has a huge history from Japan and the Japanese version the Rhodes system I believe had a huge influence on american professional wrestling.  Not to mention the way it reflected pop culture and counter in the eighties and nineties which is all the UTC does now days lols.


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## jks9199

drop bear said:


> What geographical area would that have consisted of?


All over the US, at a minimum. I know of training events in California,  Ohio, New York, Texas, Delaware, Maryland...  and those are just the ones I personally know folks who took part.   I'm quite certain there were many others.


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## Hyoho

I would not say they are fake but its still Martial Arts Entertainment. Lets hope it doesn't all turn into a Mayweather/Pakman debacle.

Dr.Smith I think you need to leave Buddhism out of the mix. The main reason Japanese Bujutsu identified with it was preparation for death at any time. To die with or for ones master. It really does does not apply to this.

Lets face it when all's said and done it's done for money. Even in Japan today Budo teachers are paid by the education authority with a Phys/Ed degree or as police. We get 'expenses' only. The Nippon Budokan charter clearly states the aims and expectations. There are few private dojo operating on other than a money to pay rent basis.

The whole thing has got turned on its head for making money and using words that have little or no relationship to the original concepts. I just love this word "adaptation". We practice an art and then add our own character to it to make it special. Now and then somebody special turns up that actually forms their own artistic concept. But the most part its people that can't do the original to a high degree, add their own little bits and call it 'adaptation'.

I don't think MMA downgrades the original concepts. It is what it is and we should accept it for that. But can MMA people do that?


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## Dr.Smith

Hyoho said:


> I would not say they are fake but its still Martial Arts Entertainment. Lets hope it doesn't all turn into a Mayweather/Pakman debacle.
> 
> Dr.Smith I think you need to leave Buddhism out of the mix. The main reason Japanese Bujutsu identified with it was preparation for death at any time. To die with or for ones master. It really does does not apply to this.
> 
> Lets face it when all's said and done it's done for money. Even in Japan today Budo teachers are paid by the education authority with a Phys/Ed degree or as police. We get 'expenses' only. The Nippon Budokan charter clearly states the aims and expectations. There are few private dojo operating on other than a money to pay rent basis.
> 
> The whole thing has got turned on its head for making money and using words that have little or no relationship to the original concepts. I just love this word "adaptation". We practice an art and then add our own character to it to make it special. Now and then somebody special turns up that actually forms their own artistic concept. But the most part its people that can't do the original to a high degree, add their own little bits and call it 'adaptation'.
> 
> I don't think MMA downgrades the original concepts. It is what it is and we should accept it for that. But can MMA people do that?



  Umm...NO WAY JOSE... Clear enough for ya.  Your statement about Japanese people preparing for death with Buddhist teaching is very accurate.  I'm going to keep saying because it keeps me sane frankly but letting go of ones attachments to all that ego driven stuff is very very difficult and honestly all I see coming from today's mma guys is nothing but ego driven horn tooting macho crap, and I for one am not going to let anyone try to tell me that in order to be a good martial artist I have to look like or act like some phycopath ufc fighter jacked on roids coke and publicity.  Doesn't matter what your faith is or what it isn't both history and dogma will both verify that today's mma is a total joke and its already been done.  Its simple nobody in this day and age has a single solitary thing incommon with an actual true to life martial arts ounder


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## Hyoho

Dr.Smith said:


> Your statement about Japanese people preparing for death with Buddhist teaching is very accurate.



Thank you for saying so. Because of buddhism and more than a few years doing Budo. It has perhaps taught me to have little more reservation in criticism. Mi o asaku omoi yo o fukaku omou. Have fun!


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## drop bear

Dr.Smith said:


> Umm...NO WAY JOSE... Clear enough for ya.  Your statement about Japanese people preparing for death with Buddhist teaching is very accurate.  I'm going to keep saying because it keeps me sane frankly but letting go of ones attachments to all that ego driven stuff is very very difficult and honestly all I see coming from today's mma guys is nothing but ego driven horn tooting macho crap, and I for one am not going to let anyone try to tell me that in order to be a good martial artist I have to look like or act like some phycopath ufc fighter jacked on roids coke and publicity.  Doesn't matter what your faith is or what it isn't both history and dogma will both verify that today's mma is a total joke and its already been done.  Its simple nobody in this day and age has a single solitary thing in common with an actual true to life martial arts founder



What is your alternative as a martial artist?


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## Langenschwert

While I'm a fan of MMA, I'm not a fan of the MMA "scene" as in the publicity engine behind it. I want to see good clean sporting matches between skilled fighters. I'm not interested in trash talk, though I realize organizations like the UFC encourage it in order to play up upcoming fights. It's a proven way to promote the event, so I understand why it's done.

However, I got into MMA as a spectator back in the days of Chuck, Randy, Rich and the rest. For me, that was the golden age. Very little trash talk and interesting match-ups. Huerta vs. Guida, GSP vs Huges, and the shock of Jardine picking apart Liddell. I couldn't believe it when it happened. Halcyon days gone by, eh?

Now, not so much. It seems like the UFC isn't putting as much into developing the fighters... it's more of a meat grinder. I'm still ticked that Guida never got a title shot... they always put "just one more" in front of him. What a waste.


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## Tez3

Langenschwert said:


> I'm not interested in trash talk,



We tend not to have very much here, probably because we aren't very good at it! ( apart from the Geordies but then nobody understands what they are saying anyway so that doesn't count) I don't know whether to be ashamed or proud of that 

There tends too not to be much in the European matches either, perhaps it just doesn't work we all start laughing including the fighters.


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## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> We tend not to have very much here, probably because we aren't very good at it! ( apart from the Geordies but then nobody understands what they are saying anyway so that doesn't count) I don't know whether to be ashamed or proud of that
> 
> There tends too not to be much in the European matches either, perhaps it just doesn't work we all start laughing including the fighters.


Conor McGregor seems to have the hang of it.


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## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> Conor McGregor seems to have the hang of it.




I knew someone would say that. Conor McGregor is *not* British, he's a citizen of the Irish Republic otherwise known as Eire. he would be mortified if you thought he was British.

Ireland government. National political party for Ireland government. Chief of state president political parties in Ireland. - CountryReports


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## Brian R. VanCise

Let's hope the Aldo/McGregor fight happens Tez3 after Aldo announced he has broken ribs.


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## Tez3

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Let's hope the Aldo/McGregor fight happens Tez3 after Aldo announced he has broken ribs.



They say it will, but John Kavanagh Conor's coach says they still don't know! Some people are saying it will go ahead and if Aldo gets beaten he will say it's because he's injured, I suppose those comments were obvious. :-(


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## ShotoNoob

Tony Dismukes said:


> Conor McGregor seems to have the hang of it.


|
It's reported that CM trains out of Matt Thornton's SBG franchise.  Under the coach Tez3 mentioned.  I think CM takes JA.... either now or later re JA's injury....
|
I think CM is one of the best strikers in MMA.


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## ShotoNoob

Dr.Smith said:


> ...Its simple guys, this whole thing is a play on words,  mma is an acronym that we should all be able to use when we need to describe a whole host of different martial arts, we need to get real with ourselves when we talk about this.  Love mma love watching fights love the martial arts and their rich history sorry to see it go to the dogs.


|
You guys still talking about this?  I kinda said this I don't know how many posts ago....
|
Carry on....


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## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> It's reported that CM trains out of Matt Thornton's SBG franchise.  Under the coach Tez3 mentioned.  I think CM takes JA.... either now or later re JA's injury....
> |
> I think CM is one of the best strikers in MMA.




Conor trains with John Kavanagh in Dublin, Eire. John is a cracking coach and a really nice guy, I have a lot of time for him.
SBG Ireland
Karl Tanswell is also a world renown MMA coach whose self defence instruction is first class by the way comes out of SBG in the UK.


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## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> Conor trains with John Kavanagh in Dublin, Eire. John is a cracking coach and a really nice guy, I have a lot of time for him.
> SBG Ireland
> Karl Tanswell is also a world renown MMA coach whose self defence instruction is first class by the way comes out of SBG in the UK.


|
Thanks.  Also helps to explain our differing philosophies....


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## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Thanks. Also helps to explain our differing philosophies....



I doubt it somehow, would you care to explain what you think my 'philosophy' is?


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## Steve

I think Conor Mcgregor is a loud mouth.  Great competitor, but man, that guy is annoying to listen to.  Between him and Michael Bisping, I can't think of who's worse.  What's worse is that Fox over here in the States gets Bisping on as a commentator now.  Ugh...


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## ballen0351

Steve said:


> I think Conor Mcgregor is a loud mouth.  Great competitor, but man, that guy is annoying to listen to.  Between him and Michael Bisping, I can't think of who's worse.  What's worse is that Fox over here in the States gets Bisping on as a commentator now.  Ugh...


Bisping is def worse that dude drives me up a wall


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## ShotoNoob

Steve said:


> I think Conor Mcgregor is a loud mouth.  Great competitor, but man, that guy is annoying to listen to.  Between him and Michael Bisping, I can't think of who's worse.  What's worse is that Fox over here in the States gets Bisping on as a commentator now.  Ugh...


|
Oh well, it's showtime.....  Look at how poorly my academic musings are received by many here.  So go, Connor, GO!


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## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> I doubt it somehow, would you care to explain what you think my 'philosophy' is?



Get a start @ the Shotokan for Self Defense Thread.  Post # 1407--I know you prefer specific references...  OOPS, that's self defence (with a "c"). Hoping to avoid another spelling lesson.


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## Buka

The fight game is an odd thing, and I always forget that. 

Years ago, as a fan, I never liked Tito Ortiz. Not even a little bit. But a long time, close friend knew Tito and told me what a good guy he was, and how his tv persona was just that, a calculated image for the fight game, which he was deeply embedded in, and how he earned a living in a very short window of time. I didn't doubt my friend, he's straight up and had been in the game a long time, and when I watched Ortiz as a coach on TUF, I got it. Great coach/trainer, which was a stark comparison to the other coach, Ken Shamrock, whom I had always liked. 

As I watched, Shamrock might have been the worst coach I've ever seen. Off the charts fighting ability, but couldn't relate knowledge to anyone in any way, not even a little. Ortiz really surprised me in his knowledge, teaching style and personal demeanor. I always try to remember those things when I see guys come into the limelight of the UFC or any other fight venue that I watch or am part of, but somehow I always forget. 

Wasn't a fan of McGregor, I like the way he fights but not a fan of him, and I really don't like Bisping at all, not one little bit - but I don't know a damn thing about either of them except for what I read and see.......on the internet and television. Those are two, top notch, holy sources, they couldn't possibly stear me wrong, because, hey, I know about these things.

I wonder how any of us would be depicted in the fight game for money? I don't know if we'd orchestrate it or be a victim of it. I don't think we'd care as long as we were maximizing our earning potential and winning more than losing. Just a thought.


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## Tez3

ballen0351 said:


> Bisping is def worse that dude drives me up a wall



Trust me it's worse when you know him, we had the dubious honour of giving him his pro debut fight, it was against one of our amateur fighters and Bisping actually wasn't that good, he was extremely arrogant then ( he used to post up on an MMA forum with the rest of us with the user name  The Count lol), his father even worse. He brought a couple of 'his' fighters to a couple of our shows, all like him. His fighting improved somewhat but his manner just got worse. You'll find he's not that well liked here ( come to think of it we haven't heard from him for ages, he's too good for us lol) his support is only because he's British and we think we should support him when he's fighting non Brits, he fights Brits and there's no support for him


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## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Get a start @ the Shotokan for Self Defense Thread.  Post # 1407--I know you prefer specific references...  OOPS, that's self defence (with a "c"). Hoping to avoid another spelling lesson.




What _are_ you on about?


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## ShotoNoob

Buka said:


> The fight game is an odd thing, and I always forget that.
> 
> Years ago, as a fan, I never liked Tito Ortiz.


|
As a diehard UFC / MMA fan, ya' gotta love Tito Ortiz....
|
ADD: I've seen some interview where he presents himself very well.....


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