# Part of the philosophy of Taijiquan



## Xue Sheng (Nov 23, 2009)

or at least some of what it is based on

Tao Te Ching (transl. by T. McCarroll, Text Only *.pdf)
39 Pages, 160 kB 



> 36
> That which is to be shrunk must first be stretched out.
> That which is to be weakened must first be strengthened.
> That which is to be cast down must first be raised up.
> ...


 
Tao Te Ching (transl. by Feng & English, Illustrated *.pdf)
24 Pages, 470 kB 



> 36
> That which shrinks
> Must first expand.
> That which fails
> ...


 
And another translation I read that I picked up in China 



> 36
> When you wish to contract something
> You must first expand it
> When you wish to weaken something
> ...


 
You may also want to look at 22, 24, 40, 54, and 76 just to name a few


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## Quotheraving (Nov 26, 2009)

I've also always thought it self evident that the inspiration for Tai Chi came from Taoist principles, but a Tai Chi teacher of mine made a strong argument against this.

The martial art now known as Tai Chi only got that name quite recently, historically speaking. 
Before it became Tai Chi it was known by several different names such as 'long boxing', 'Cotton fist', 'Neutralizing fist' and if students of TT liang are to be believed the 'Square in a circle method' (though I feel that the latter is a confusion stemming from the 8 preliminary exercises for 4 hands, the ba pan jia tzu). 

It's likely that only later was the explicit link with taoist philosophy drawn and that prior to that it simply embodied an approach to martial arts in which structure, sensitivity and yielding were seen as more effective than speed and strength and that this was the result of practical considerations rather than philosophical ones.

For instance the chapters you have quoted could equally well apply to Aikido or Judo and a similar sentiment may be found expressed in the I Ching. 
If you had a mind to do so you could derive many of the ideas behind Tai Chi from this classic alone.

What I find truly fascinating is not that T'ai chi (the martial art) displays similarities to the philosophy of Taoism (human minds are good at drawing parallels after all), but that the abstracts of Taoism should be able to be applied to so many other different fields.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 28, 2009)

The history of Taiji is...well... rather questionable much past the Chen family and even then it is not exactly 100% correct

All you can really get to with historic proof is Chen Wangting and pretty much what you have is the martial art that the Chen family was practicing in combination with a bit of Long Fist (maybe) and possibly added to a Qigong form called Taiji Qigong, which is considerably older than Taijiquan (this by the way causes all sorts of confusion). Also it is accepted that Chen Wangting studied the Tao de ching. 

Now if you go to the Yang family origin story you get to Zhang Sanfeng (which by the way my sifu believes completely and I do not argue with him about it) who may or may not have existed. But what is very interesting about that is that there is absolutely no reference to Zhang Sanfeng in any Chen family origin story (which is likely not 100% true either) but you do get to Zhang Sanfeng from Yang Luchan who learned Taijiquan from Chén Chángx&#299;ng who most certainly never told Yang Luchan anything about Zhang Sanfeng.

So, not meaning to be argumentative or contradictory it is pretty much accepted historically that Taiji is connected to Taoism (philosophically not necessarily religiously  but that is and has been stuff of another post), if for no other reason the study of the Dao Te Ching


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## mograph (Nov 30, 2009)

The more we practice, the more we practice.



That was a wise-guy way of saying that as I practice more taijiquan and yiquan, I find the discussion of history and origins less appealing. It just starts to lose steam for me and starts to take time away from practice. So I find that as I practice more, I discuss abstracts less. Maybe the ratio should be one sentence of discussion to two hours of practice?

Of course we need hints for direction, so if a parallel or metaphor is useful and bears fruit during practice or applications, great. I just don't view it as the Word, or as the point of the study.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 30, 2009)

mograph said:


> The more we practice, the more we practice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
train, train and train and when you finish that....train some more.

I find the history of the styles I train rather interesting so I tend to go into them a bit and I take them only as far as can "factually" be taken and I tend to stop there.

As to the various histories of those styles (don&#8217;t get me started on the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan )...let&#8217;s just say I find them entertaining and leave it at that  

But to redirect this post back to the reason I posted it in the first place (in an attempt to completely avoid and Taiji origin battle) and to keep it with the given examples

I find it helpful, for me (this may not apply to anyone else), that when I read something like



> When you wish to contract something
> You must first expand it
> When you wish to weaken something
> You must first strengthen it
> ...


 
It helped clear up a lot for me when it comes to Taijiquan Tuishou or applications of taiji forms (postures) in the way they should be applied if you are actually using Taijiquan as it was meant to be used (IMO).


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## ggg214 (Nov 30, 2009)

Quotheraving said:


> The martial art now known as Tai Chi only got that name quite recently, historically speaking.
> Before it became Tai Chi it was known by several different names such as 'long boxing', *'Cotton fist',* 'Neutralizing fist' and if students of TT liang are to be believed the 'Square in a circle method' (though I feel that the latter is a confusion stemming from the 8 preliminary exercises for 4 hands, the ba pan jia tzu).
> ....
> .


 
as i know, the cotton fist is no relation to taiji quan. it's an independent style.
the correct name of this style must be soft fist&#65288;&#32501;&#25331;&#65289;, not cotton fist&#65288;&#26825;&#25331;&#65289;. it's used to be a famous and fighting style in shanghai. now, only few people is training this, because it's really tough, and masters of the style are very tradditional. they don't even permit others watching when they are training. 
reading some articles about soft fist's history, i can't find out any relationship to taiji quan. and it's much older than taiji.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 4, 2009)

> Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub;
> It is the center hole that makes it useful.
> Shape clay into a vessel;
> It is the space within that makes it useful.
> ...


 
Do the form and/or do some Tuishou and think about it.


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## mograph (Dec 4, 2009)

[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]"The notes I handle no better than many pianists.  But the pauses between the notes - ah, that is where the art resides!"

 ~Artur Schnabel[/FONT]


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## Quotheraving (Dec 12, 2009)

ggg214 said:


> as i know, the cotton fist is no relation to taiji quan. it's an independent style.
> the correct name of this style must be soft fist&#65288;&#32501;&#25331;&#65289;, not cotton fist&#65288;&#26825;&#25331;&#65289;. it's used to be a famous and fighting style in shanghai. now, only few people is training this, because it's really tough, and masters of the style are very tradditional. they don't even permit others watching when they are training.
> reading some articles about soft fist's history, i can't find out any relationship to taiji quan. and it's much older than taiji.



I don't know about exact translations, but I and many others have been lead to believe that the name for Lu Chan's style of taiji was originally Cotton boxing.

To quote from this site :  http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/historg4.htm , which at least superficially appears to support the notion that the Taoist elements of Taiji were imposed afterwards.


"
*Taijiquan Gets Its Name*
                  When Yang Lu Chan first taught the art in Yung Nien, his art was referred to as 'Mien Quan' or (Cotton Fist) or 'Hua Quan' (Neutralising Fist), it was not yet called Taijiquan. Whilst teaching at the Imperial Court, Yang met many challenges, some friendly some not. But he invariably won and in so convincingly using his soft techniques that he gained a great reputation.
                  Many who frequented the imperial households would come to view his matches. At one such gatherings at which Yang had won against several reputable opponents. The scholar Ong Tong He was present and was so impressed by the way Yang moved and executed his techniques and felt that his movements and techniques expressed the physical manifestation of the principles of Taiji (the philosophy) wrote for him a matching verse:


_'Hands Holding Taiji shakes the whole world,
                a chest containing ultimate skill defeats a gathering of heros.'

_                  Thereafter, his art was referred to as Taijiquan and the styles that sprang from his teaching and by association with him was called Taijiquan."




As stated previously I hold the view that it's (Taiji) links to Taoism are "self evident" and while some histories of the naming of the Yang style of the art which came to be known as Taiji give the impression that the link to taoism came later, the birth of the art lies further in the past than it's naming and therefore it is unwise to discard the possibility that the philosophy of taoism may have played some part in inspiring it's creation.




I realise that this may rub some of you up the wrong way, but isn't it a bit sanctimonious to decry learning about (and discussing) the history of one's obsession (well it's certainly an obsession in my case, right up there with sex and death lol). Of course it isn't vital to one's study of the art, but if we can't think and converse and express curiosity 'as well' as practise we would be fairly one sided as humans, possibly even denying ourselves the intellectual persuits we crave as thinking (occasionally) beings.


That said I really should develop more interests beyond sex, death, philosophy and Taiji.


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## mograph (Dec 13, 2009)

Quotheraving said:


> Of course it isn't vital to one's study of the art, but if we can't think and converse and express curiosity 'as well' as practise we would be fairly one sided as humans, possibly even denying ourselves the intellectual persuits we crave as thinking (occasionally) beings.



Yes, the mind/body is a unified entity, and ignoring one is to the detriment of the other. I just think we should all be aware that historical discussions are a mix of opinion and myth with very little that can be taken as fact. (Just because it's documented doesn't mean it actually happened.)

... and above all else, to not have any attachment to the discussion, since it is one or more levels removed from direct experience.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 14, 2009)

*NOT THE TOPIC OF THE POST* and this is my last entry on this in this thread. You want a history of Taiji thread, make one.

I will say this and let it go.

Historic fact

Yang Luchan learned from Chén Chángx&#299;ng and what Chén Chángx&#299;ng taught Yang Luchan was Chen family Taijiquan which comes from Chen Wangting and there is absolutely no mention of the Taoist Zhang Sanfeng (give me a minute and I will post a link to a thread that makes Zhang Sanfeng kind of hard to use as proof of anything). But there is reference to Chen Wangting studying the Tao De Ching which is most certainly Taoist.

Just about everything else is speculation some of which is based on wishful thinking and the need to feel superior to other CMA styles.

And as far as I know there is no reference in Yang Family history to Cotton fist but I could be wrong there and need to get a book I have at home on the topic.


Here is a link to the Zhang Sanfeng stuff (post #5)



*And now back to what the thread IS about*

From number 5 - Translation by Gia Fu Feng



> The space between heaven and earth is like a bellows.
> The shape changes but not the form;
> The more it moves, the more it yields.
> More words count less.
> Hold fast to the center.


 
Do tuishou or form and think about that one


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## Quotheraving (Dec 14, 2009)

mograph said:


> Yes, the mind/body is a unified entity, and ignoring one is to the detriment of the other. I just think we should all be aware that historical discussions are a mix of opinion and myth with very little that can be taken as fact. (Just because it's documented doesn't mean it actually happened.)
> 
> ... and above all else, to not have any attachment to the discussion, since it is one or more levels removed from direct experience.




I really couldn't agree more emphatically, especially the last point about detachment since it's hard to see all sides of a subject when you are closely tied to one little corner.

It's pretty hard being interested in Taiji (in all it's aspects) and not being constantly exposed to bovine excreta in truly massive quantities, and if experience has taught me anything it's to doubt constantly and that evidence is worth infinitely more than belief.


*Edit*
Xue, considering that this is a thread about the Taoist thought and Taiji the martial art, arguments against there being a true link (whether based on history or not) seem pertinent, though the Cotton fist exploration was a digression an interesting one all the same... it's good to learn and hear other opinions and the evidence for them.


And for that matter there are so many parts of the Tao te that can apply to Taiji either directly or indirectly through the concepts they evoke that you could as easily quote the entire text.
For the simple beauty and applicability of it though I have to admit to finding this verse inexaustable in it's good advice.

"Can you coax your mind from its wandering
 and keep to the original oneness?
 Can you let your body become
 supple as a newborn child's?
 Can you cleanse your inner vision
 until you see nothing but the light?
 Can you love people and lead them
 without imposing your will?
 Can you deal with the most vital matters
 by letting events take their course?
 Can you step back from you own mind
 and thus understand all things?

 Giving birth and nourishing,
 having without possessing,
 acting with no expectations,
 leading and not trying to control:
 this is the supreme virtue."


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 14, 2009)

Quotheraving said:


> *Edit*
> Xue, considering that this is a thread about the Taoist thought and Taiji the martial art, arguments against there being a true link (whether based on history or not) seem pertinent, though the Cotton fist exploration was a digression an interesting one all the same... it's good to learn and hear other opinions and the evidence for them.


 
Historic fact (or as close to it as you can get when you are talking taiji history)....... Chen Wangting studying the Tao De Ching 

Per Chen Family that was used to develop what we now know as Chen family Taijiquan

Beyond that there is no historically proven Taoist connection.

And what TT Liang taught came from Cheng Manching which came from Yang Chengfu which came from Yang Jianhou which came from Yang Luchan which came from Chén Chángx&#299;ng and he lived from 1771 to 1853 and what Chén Chángx&#299;ng taught came from Chen Wangting and Chen Wangting was born in 1580 and died in 1660. Prior to that the only historically proven reference to Taiji is attached to something more along the lines of Taiji Qigong..... not Taijiquan

And you have not really made an argument for or against beyond a reference to a teacher that did and you brought this into the thread. 

However but you are using unverifiable history in your posts to prove a point and using 'long boxing', 'Cotton fist', 'Neutralizing fist' to do that and those are generally attached to Yang Luchan who shows up approximately 139 years after the historically accepted founder of taiji died.

However it was Yang Luchan who tied taiji to Taoism by claiming additional study with Taoists and bringing the mystical, mysterious and historically unproven Zhang Sanfeng into the mix.

ggg214 questioned Cotton fist because there is currently a style in China called Cotton fist that has nothing to do with taijiquan



Quotheraving said:


> And for that matter there are so many parts of the Tao te that can apply to Taiji either directly or indirectly through the concepts they evoke that you could as easily quote the entire text.
> For the simple beauty and applicability of it though I have to admit to finding this verse inexaustable in it's good advice.
> 
> "Can you coax your mind from its wandering
> ...


 
For that matter there are so many parts of the Tao De Ching that can apply to a multitude of martial arts as well as life in general.

I am talking about those parts that when I read them made a difference in MY training in a way that helped me understand more about what I was doing. However there is far more to Taiji than the Tao De Ching and just reading it does not in any way mean you can do or understand taiji nor does doing taiji mean you understand or can apply any part of the Tao De Ching and it is likely that ones interpretation is not necessarily the same as anothers.


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## Quotheraving (Dec 14, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Historic fact (or as close to it as you can get when you are talking taiji history)....... Chen Wangting studying the Tao De Ching
> 
> Per Chen Family that was used to develop what we now know as Chen family Taijiquan
> 
> Beyond that there is no historically proven Taoist connection.



Which is probably why there is space for questions as to whether Taoist philosophy was the root of Taiji as a martial art from the outset, or whether the martial art came to be assosciated with Taoist thought only after it's creation.




> And what TT Liang taught came from Cheng Manching which came from Yang Chengfu which came from Yang Jianhou which came from Yang Luchan which came from Chén Chángx&#299;ng and he lived from 1771 to 1853 and what Chén Chángx&#299;ng taught came from Chen Wangting and Chen Wangting was born in 1580 and died in 1660. Prior to that the only historically proven reference to Taiji is attached to something more along the lines of Taiji Qigong..... not Taijiquan


Taiji appears to be a fairly (relatively speaking) recent invention and if tales of it's naming are anything to go by the Chen family art would not even have been termed Taiji... this I have no direct evidence either for or against and as such I can only draw from what I have been told by others, in particular the teacher I mentioned. He even argued (based on a Wu Hao teacher of his) that Taiji is a confucian art and not a Taoist one, which caused me to raise an eyebrow I can tell you.

I agree about the unreliability of drawing from TT liang's opinion of the original name for Taiji, especially since it can easily be seen to be a corruption of a set of Yang style preparatory exercises.




> And you have not really made an argument for or against beyond a reference to a teacher that did and you brought this into the thread.


No you are right, not being an authority on the subject I merely relayed something someone else had opined with some measure of certainty that seemed appropriate in a relevent topic.

I myself have few opinions as to the facts of the matter and am content to remain in state of uncertainty while gathering and communicating information... I apologise if I didn't express my own view, I didn't realise the dress code to this dance was so formal. 




> However but you are using unverifiable history in your posts to prove a point and using 'long boxing', 'Cotton fist', 'Neutralizing fist' to do that and those are generally attached to Yang Luchan who shows up approximately 139 years after the historically accepted founder of taiji died.


Who is trying to prove a point? I simply offered that widely told historical 'tale' as support for the _view_ that Taiji only came to be known as Taiji in LuChan's day, there are other equally unproven accounts that assert differently.
If we constrain our discussions purely to what is verifiable we would have precious little to discuss.

I personally don't know which is true and am interested in finding that out.
I don't even know whether it was Taoism or an older philosophy (expressed in the I ching) that was the originating principle of Taiji (the latter can be seen expressed here: http://www.martrix.org/taijiquan_shadow_boxing.html )

With so much claim and counter claim you'll have to forgive me for being uncertain and sceptical about even what I myself feel to be true (that Taoist thought inspired Taiji), all I know for certain is that Taoist thought is today intermingled with many chinese martial arts and that Taiji is a very good example of just such an art. 
Indeed Taoist thought permeated most of Chinese culture at the time that Taiji was being developed so this is hardly surprising.




> ggg214 questioned Cotton fist because there is currently a style in China called Cotton fist that has nothing to do with taijiquan


A style I knew nothing about prior to this discussion and a revelation for which I am profoundly grateful. 

This does not mean that the early Yang (taiji) style was not also known by the same name, though the fact that a leading family of Mian quan practitioners are also named Yang does point to a possible source of confusion on the part of whoever researched this legend of how Taiji was named.

Having perused some videos on You tube it would appear that both taiji practitioners 



 and genuine mian quan stylists http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXkYf353GKU&NR=1 are using the name, again this could be an error on the part of the first video which is clearly taiji.


And that is all I have to say on the matter.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 14, 2009)

Quotheraving said:


> Which is probably why there is space for questions as to whether Taoist philosophy was the root of Taiji as a martial art from the outset, or whether the martial art came to be assosciated with Taoist thought only after it's creation.
> 
> Taiji appears to be a fairly (relatively speaking) recent invention and if tales of it's naming are anything to go by the Chen family art would not even have been termed Taiji... this I have no direct evidence either for or against and as such I can only draw from what I have been told by others, in particular the teacher I mentioned. He even argued (based on a Wu Hao teacher of his) that Taiji is a confucian art and not a Taoist one, which caused me to raise an eyebrow I can tell you.
> 
> ...


 
If you go by the Yang family and for that matter the Chen family Mian quan has not much to do with Yang Taijiquan or at least not as much as they want to claim.

Best bet with all things taiji, stick to what is verifiable by documented histories

The whole internal (Taoist) external (Buddhist) thing within CMA could also be based on politics too. And Taoism by the way is the indigenous religion of China and rather old, much older than any thing taiji. The only link I can see that is verifiable to Taoism is Chen Wanting studying the Tao De Ching.

Ultimately Taijiquan is a Chinese Martial Art that has little to do with the Taoist or Buddhist religions it does however appear to be based, at least in part, on Taoist Philosophy. But the a whole lot of things Chinese have a hint of Taoism since it is indigenous to China and has been around for at least 2000 years...


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## oxy (Dec 14, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> However there is far more to Taiji than the Tao De Ching and just reading it does not in any way mean you can do or understand taiji nor does doing taiji mean you understand or can apply any part of the Tao De Ching and it is likely that ones interpretation is not necessarily the same as anothers.



Yes, it's more about understanding the culture in which they both come from.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 15, 2009)

oxy said:


> Yes, it's more about understanding the culture in which they both come from.


 






 BINGO!!!!

 I agree completely

Thank You.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 18, 2009)

I just read this and it is not considered a Taoist source nor is it a Taijiquan source and technically it is not a martial arts source as discussed on MT but IMO it does apply quite nicely and is a rather important aspect of any CMA IMA training



> Nothing is harder to see into than people's nature. The sage looks at subtle phenomena and listens to small voices. This harmonizes
> the outside with the inside and the inside with the outside. --Zhuge Liang


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## Xinglu (Dec 19, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> > Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub;
> > It is the center hole that makes it useful.
> > Shape clay into a vessel;
> > It is the space within that makes it useful.
> ...



Chapter 11: my personal favorite


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