# Oh dear... dangers of not testing things



## Andrew Green (May 23, 2006)

http://russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/clips/S.D..wmv

How co-operative are your training partners when working "Self-defence?"

Obviously this shows an extreme example, but not a uncommon one in a lesser form. 

Where's the balance?


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 23, 2006)

I liked the ending. Very DarthDilman like.


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## Rick Wade (May 23, 2006)

Oh my I think he has crossed over to the dark side.

V/R

Rick


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## green meanie (May 23, 2006)

'Darth Dilman...'   :rofl:


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## Rook (May 23, 2006)

Perhaps you should have posted this is the systema forum where they could have tried to explain it.


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## Nemesis (May 23, 2006)

This is great he can beat up a guy without even touching him!
Now seriosly! Who does this guy thinks he's fooling?


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## Kacey (May 23, 2006)

It did look a little... well... _*too*_ practiced!  That, or we have the next Yoda on our hands!


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## Rick Wade (May 23, 2006)

Nemesis said:
			
		

> This is great he can beat up a guy without even touching him!
> Now seriosly! Who does this guy thinks he's fooling?


 
All of the guys standing around watching him.

V/R

Rick


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## MJS (May 23, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> http://russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/clips/S.D..wmv
> 
> How co-operative are your training partners when working "Self-defence?"
> 
> ...


 
When first learning a technique, regardless of what art it is, things should begin at a slow pace, with a gradual build up of resistance, speed, etc.  This will allow for a good understanding of the movements, fine points, etc.

I know nothing about Systema, but the 'attackers' seemed as if they were being overly co-operative.

Mike


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## James Patrick (May 23, 2006)

cool....now i know why we won the cold war...


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## James Patrick (May 23, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> How co-operative are your training partners when working "Self-defence?"


 
Not very when we train. We use cooperation to learn the skills, then we work them with resistance.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 24, 2006)

Interesting.   Would like to see it in context though.


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## Carol (May 24, 2006)

Practiced or not, I wish my shoulder rolls looked that good


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## Andrew Green (May 24, 2006)

I wish my throws worked like that


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## Rich Parsons (May 24, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> Perhaps you should have posted this is the systema forum where they could have tried to explain it.




It is systema. 

I have not trained in this martial art. 

I have worked with a couple who have. I have talked to them as well. 

If you do not go with the energy then you get struck and get hurt. So people learn to go with the flow of the energy.

Not defending just commenting.


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## MJS (May 24, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> If you do not go with the energy then you get struck and get hurt. So people learn to go with the flow of the energy.


 
Good point.  Looking at the clip, alot of it reminds me of Aikido.  Same idea of 'going with' the throws to avoid injury.


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## Andrew Green (May 24, 2006)

No...  this is just silly.  Twisting a stick someone is holding does not require them to go flying in a perfect flip to avoid injury no matter how good you are at twisting your stick...


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## Rich Parsons (May 24, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> No... this is just silly. Twisting a stick someone is holding does not require them to go flying in a perfect flip to avoid injury no matter how good you are at twisting your stick...




Andrew while I agree with your comment what you do not see is that if they do not avoid the stick in a manner to also avoid being thrown then they either get hit (* Hard *) or they go with the energy. 

One thought is while in a joint lock you move yourself to another one to remove the pressure the opponent has control over. Unfortunately, for the guy explaining it to me I was able to flow with him and keep control and switch which joint had the lock. Agreed he was not a top Systema guy and I have never played with one, so I cannto say on that.


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## green meanie (May 24, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> No... this is just silly. Twisting a stick someone is holding does not require them to go flying in a perfect flip to avoid injury no matter how good you are at twisting your stick...


 
Agreed. :asian:


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

I understand why they are doing it. It is just, when you don't know, or understand, it really looks bad.


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## Makalakumu (May 24, 2006)

DarthDillman was a pretty darn good explanation.  I would rather see uki blasted for not reacting, because that is how this stuff is really going to go down.  And that, IMO, is where the rubber meets the road.  

That was some serious over-reacting/acting, if you ask me.


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## Rook (May 24, 2006)

This shows a training exercise of some sort with Mikhail, the head of one style of systema.  If you had posted it in the systema forum, they would have explained what the exercise was and why they were doing it.  Most the systema people have come off very different from the Dillman types so perhaps you should give them a chance to explain themselves.


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> No...  this is just silly.  Twisting a stick someone is holding does not require them to go flying in a perfect flip to avoid injury no matter how good you are at twisting your stick...


Look closer....  I went back and looked to confirm what I thought I saw...  

It is either that or his wrist gets broken.  If you look closer it wasn't just "twisting a stick", actually he twisted the guys wrist to the inside in what we call ura gyaku.  The guy either had to flip around it or his wrist goes snap.  His flip looked good because he has good acrobatic skills.  Most people would end up with the broken wrist.

I do not practice systema, however, some of their principles are close to ours.   I will say your eyes will decieve you, if you have not felt it.  That guy is using techniques that employ natural body actions and reactions, things that people cannot control (much like the blink reflex of the eyes when sneezing).

My point is this, you can't watch it, you must feel it.


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## Blotan Hunka (May 24, 2006)

More throw a punch out there and let it hang, grab a stick and dont try to do anything else so I can look impressive, seminar crap as far as I can see. Id seriously love to see a MMA guy really mix it up with these types and see how well it really works against someone trying to beat the **** out of you.


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> More throw a punch out there and let it hang, grab a stick and dont try to do anything else so I can look impressive, seminar crap as far as I can see. Id seriously love to see a MMA guy really mix it up with these types and see how well it really works against someone trying to beat the **** out of you.


True, but the pause or hanging it out there was so that the onlookers could see.  Sure an attacker wouldn't stop and chances are he might not be able to get the wrist lock before something else, so he would have to skip on past that.  However, when looking at these sort of things one must be able to weed out what is for demonstration purposes, what the person is doing, and what is being conveyed.  To look at a demonstration, and expecting it to look like a throw-down is IMO not the correct way to look at a demonstration or instruction.  You must be able to see the nuggets of information in the whole picture.

This also applies to the dojo (IMO).

Ironically, blasting through him with speed and power, will likely make matters worse for the attacker.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

So are these effective SD techniques?


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

Ask the Russian Special Forces, whose training is supposedly what they are based off. I believe the person in the clip, was a member.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Ask the Russian Special Forces, whose training is supposedly what they are based off. I believe the person in the clip, was a member.


-More unverafiable claims by somebody selling something.


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> So are these effective SD techniques?


I believe I saw a few things that I felt were good principles, the caveat is that non of them were devastating crushing them to the ground, destruction techniques.  There were things I thought were not as effective as they could have been, had there been some small adjustments, but that is just me and my opinions, as always I could be wrong.

It isn't as simple as YES or NO.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I believe I saw a few things that I felt were good principles, the caveat is that non of them were devastating crushing them to the ground, destruction techniques. There were things I thought were not as effective as they could have been, had there been some small adjustments, but that is just me and my opinions, as always I could be wrong.
> 
> It isn't as simple as YES or NO.


-And the no touch throws don't bother you as a person that has probably had 7th grade science?


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -More unverafiable claims by somebody selling something.


Sigh.  Educating the uneducatable. A thankless task, truely, especially when dealing with this type.

What is Systema?
http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=history

Now, I believe the person in the video is Mikhail.
Who?
http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=founders

Then again, if you wish to verify these things, you can contact your local Russian Embassy, and work through the proper channels since I highly doubt you read Russian.  You don't list a location in your profile, but I know there are several Systema schools in the US and Canada, including Arizona, Massachusettes, and Toronto Ontario, Canada.  Stop in and offer to be their demo partner.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Sigh. Educating the uneducatable. A thankless task, truely, especially when dealing with this type.
> 
> What is Systema?
> http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=history
> ...


-How do more unverified claims on his website prove his claims? If he had solid credentials they would be easy to find. Maybe if the Soviet Union had sent him to Aphganistan he could have thrown the mujahideen right out of there without touching them!


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## Rook (May 24, 2006)

You guys should probably make the Systema guys aware of this so they can respond.  Obviously their demo reel took the most impressive looking stuff they caught on tape from their drills.  However, I don't think they ever said that this is the limit of their system.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

Rook, posted over there. Got a monkey reply back. Am hoping a few more are lurking and will reply. Ronin is simply a S'stirrer and no matter what is said, will somehow discount it.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -How do more unverified claims on his website prove his claims? If he had solid credentials they would be easy to find. Maybe if the Soviet Union had sent him to Aphganistan he could have thrown the mujahideen right out of there without touching them!


I'm sorry, where should we look for this? You being the expert in such things.


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## desousae (May 24, 2006)

I found this post from another and figured I'd chime in.  I am by no means what so ever a student of systema, but I aspire to be.  My teacher, is working with a great systema teacher, actually a very gifted man in all ends of Martial Arts, he may offer classes at the Dojo.

I witnessed systema first at a Kempo seminar in Cape Cod, MA.  One of the teachers there was Arthur Sennott, of Systema: New England: http://russianmartialart.org/ .  Sorry to say that his videos aren't working right now, but you can use his site to jump to another or even email him, from what I have seen in him, he is a fountain of knowledge and is willing to teach anyone who listens. 

At the seminar Mr. Sennott taught us some basic systema techniques.  Some may say that training slows down and prepares the victim/attacker from true usage, but I will say this is not so in all cases.  During the seminar I work with a CCMAA systema student.  He was my size, and looked as though he would clash it out with me.  We both tried to out muscle each other all day.  You know what, the moves work!  Not even one hour of practice and the simple muscle manipulation work every time.

Now, Arthur didn't do any chi like yoda move that was shown in the video, but there is something to the way Mr. Sennott threw his punches.  When he hit you, it was like you got hit by a car.  I know first hand as I volunteered to take some punches.  He left bullseye like rings on my stomach in shades of blue, black, green and yellow and the blow knocked me back a couple of inches, sending pain to my groin up to my chest and arms!

Systema is no joke and what amazes me even more, is that its conditioning appears to be next to nothing.  His student Matt (we all feel bad for Matt), took at least one, to two hundred punches throughout the day, which led to Arthur asking for assistance.  But Matt took it!  And stood right back up.  I know, that Arthur didn't hit me as hard as he hit Matt.  With me, it hurt and I took about ten, probably could have toughed out another five, and macho'd another five because puking.  When he hit Matt, you saw kidney shots, liver shots, and even hyper-extended elbows.

Do yourself a favor, if you are really serious, schedule a seminar!  Must see for yourself.


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -And the no touch throws don't bother you as a person that has probably had 7th grade science?


Not really, just that last part (explained after). 7th grade science doesn't cover the flinch reflex and how to manipulate. Imagine if you will, you are jogging (or walking fast) along and your talking with a friend or looking off to side at something. Then the moment you turn your head to look forward you see this huge tree limb about to slam into your neck and/or chest. So your body reacts on it's on and your neck, head and chest stop, and your inertia carries your hips forward and you slam to the ground on your back (lack of balance). The limb may not even touch you, but it occupied space your body needed to complete it's action (stepping). You didn't think about doing that, your body does it as a natural self preservation mechanism. That I believe is the flinch reflex. 

On a side note, if a person does not have good control of their body movement and a good judge of timing and distance, they won't be very successful at doing that. This is one of those learning to walk before learning to run scenarios.

Try teaching that to 7th graders.  In fact, it is difficult for many adults to grasp too.

I will admit the part that bothered me was the final no hands thing as the guy was laying on the ground. I will give you that one.


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## Don Roley (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> If he had solid credentials they would be easy to find.



So, have you tried to contact the Russian embassy as Edmund suggested? If you care enough to post here, maybe you could care enough to try to figure things out on your own.

I can help when someone needs help with Japanese claims. This is outside my language skills and such.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> True, but the pause or hanging it out there was so that the onlookers could see. Sure an attacker wouldn't stop and chances are he might not be able to get the wrist lock before something else, so he would have to skip on past that. However, when looking at these sort of things one must be able to weed out what is for demonstration purposes, what the person is doing, and what is being conveyed. To look at a demonstration, and expecting it to look like a throw-down is IMO not the correct way to look at a demonstration or instruction. You must be able to see the nuggets of information in the whole picture.
> 
> This also applies to the dojo (IMO).
> 
> Ironically, blasting through him with speed and power, will likely make matters worse for the attacker.


-If all that is needed then it makes it a bad demonstration imo.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Rook, posted over there. Got a monkey reply back. Am hoping a few more are lurking and will reply. Ronin is simply a S'stirrer and no matter what is said, will somehow discount it.


-Sometimes you have to dig through **** to find the truth.

Edited to add: I DID NOT use profanity! Good grief MOD!



*Post edited to circumvention of the profanity filter - Lisa Deneka, MT Senior Mod.*


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -If all that is needed then it makes it a bad demonstration imo.


OK... Maybe you could start another thread and explain just how you would approach demonstrating a "how-to" but in a fashion that all the participants can see the smallest of movements so they can partner up and start doing it?


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, where should we look for this? You being the expert in such things.


-If he had the credentials they would be easy to find on his page. If I was selling something in the MA's mine would be.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

desousae said:
			
		

> I found this post from another and figured I'd chime in. I am by no means what so ever a student of systema, but I aspire to be. My teacher, is working with a great systema teacher, actually a very gifted man in all ends of Martial Arts, he may offer classes at the Dojo.
> 
> I witnessed systema first at a Kempo seminar in Cape Cod, MA. One of the teachers there was Arthur Sennott, of Systema: New England: http://russianmartialart.org/ . Sorry to say that his videos aren't working right now, but you can use his site to jump to another or even email him, from what I have seen in him, he is a fountain of knowledge and is willing to teach anyone who listens.
> 
> ...


-And you tried these techniques you learned against a resisting oponent?


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Not really, just that last part (explained after). 7th grade science doesn't cover the flinch reflex and how to manipulate. Imagine if you will, you are jogging (or walking fast) along and your talking with a friend or looking off to side at something. Then the moment you turn your head to look forward you see this huge tree limb about to slam into your neck and/or chest. So your body reacts on it's on and your neck, head and chest stop, and your inertia carries your hips forward and you slam to the ground on your back (lack of balance). The limb may not even touch you, but it occupied space your body needed to complete it's action (stepping). You didn't think about doing that, your body does it as a natural self preservation mechanism. That I believe is the flinch reflex.
> 
> On a side note, if a person does not have good control of their body movement and a good judge of timing and distance, they won't be very successful at doing that. This is one of those learning to walk before learning to run scenarios.
> 
> ...


-Manipulating the flinch reflex? Come on...That sounds like complete nonsense to me.


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Manipulating the flinch reflex? Come on...That sounds like complete nonsense to me.


That's OK, I completely understand.


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## MA-Caver (May 24, 2006)

Video link didn't work... was it removed... all I gotten was a blank screen.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

Ronin won't show up at any Systema event or school. It is outside his comfort zone and the people I met at an event in Toronto a while back would have little patience with his attitude.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Ronin won't show up at any Systema event or school. It is outside his comfort zone and the people I met at an event in Toronto a while back would have little patience with his attitude.


-You don't know me at all to make that claim. You are wrong at any rate.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> That's OK, I completely understand.


-No worries. We can agree to disagree on this point.


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> Video link didn't work... was it removed... all I gotten was a blank screen.



They may have yanked them.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 24, 2006)

Link works for me.


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## Don Roley (May 25, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Manipulating the flinch reflex? Come on...That sounds like complete nonsense to me.



Only because you lack the experience to understand. I have seen and experienced the actions bigshadow was talking about. I would have to say it is a bit more than manipulating the flinch reflexes and more being aware enough and experienced enough to take advantage of anything the other gives you.

Easier said than done. I can't do it other than getting someone to flinch backward because my fingers are near their eyes and such. But some folks with a lot more experience than I can make me certain I am about to get a beating in some way and freeze me, make me move to avoid what I think coming and generally make me look like a puppet on a string.


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## Makalakumu (May 25, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Only because you lack the experience to understand. I have seen and experienced the actions bigshadow was talking about. I would have to say it is a bit more than manipulating the flinch reflexes and more being aware enough and experienced enough to take advantage of anything the other gives you.
> 
> Easier said than done. I can't do it other than getting someone to flinch backward because my fingers are near their eyes and such. But some folks with a lot more experience than I can make me certain I am about to get a beating in some way and freeze me, make me move to avoid what I think coming and generally make me look like a puppet on a string.


 
Interesting.  Would you say that you are moving because you are taught to move that way or is the way you are moving something that is completely natural in anyone?


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## Bigshadow (May 25, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Interesting. Would you say that you are moving because you are taught to move that way or is the way you are moving something that is completely natural in anyone?


May I offer my opinion? To answer the question, I believe the answer is we are taught to move naturally through budo, unlearning the unnatural movement we received from our peers and parents as we developed.


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## Makalakumu (May 25, 2006)

I'm a tad skeptical of "no handed" throws, but that doesn't mean I think they are impossible.  The world is a big place, lots of things could happen, and I haven't even experienced a fraction of those things.

My only experience with this came at the hands of a 5th dan in Takeda Ryu.  I rushed in to attack once and got blasted with a stiff arm technique.  When I came in again, I saw the same technique come at me and I moved out of the way.  My opponent moved also, I fell off balance and hit the ground.

I wouldn't classify that as a "no handed" throw, though.  It was just good tai sabaki.  And I don't know that it would have worked if I hadn't been previously hit right before.


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2011)

Not sure why, but this very old thread intrigues me.  So, where did the community eventually come down on this video?  It looks like complete nonsense to me, and now that a couple of years have gone by, have we reached a consensus that this is ridiculous?


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