# Roundhouse kicks and broken legs



## Hefeweizen (Feb 1, 2003)

Is the roundhouse kick mainly for self-defense application where a hard block is not likely?   I've almost stopped using the kick in sparring because I'm sick of it being blocked and giving me a golf ball sized lump and bruised shin.    

Is this kick meant to be used sparringly?   Is the side kick generally a less injury prone kick?

Thanks
Aaron


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## TLH3rdDan (Feb 1, 2003)

i ussually use the round house kick more like a jab when kicking above the waist... below the waist it is all power and i drive thru the target... you can be injured using any kick... your going to get bruises and bumps thats part of it... you can try using shin pads.


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## Arithon (Feb 1, 2003)

Though I can kick high, I don't kick above about mid thigh level unless it's required for training purposes.  It keeps the kind of problems you are talking about to a minimum.  Besides that, its a lot safer in general.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hefeweizen _
> *I've almost stopped using the kick in sparring because I'm sick of it being blocked and giving me a golf ball sized lump and bruised shin.
> Thanks Aaron
> *



I really don't understand what you are saying.  I use the roundhouse all the time.  Sure I have had injuries and I'll show you the scars to prove it, but that was back in the day when we didn't have  sparring "gear" to protect ourselves that much and you had to "tough it out". 

as I got better..... I learned how to use the kick  correctly and the injuries that you speak of became few and far between....

I would suspect you will find the same if you study harder and your kicking skills increase..

:asian:


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## Zepp (Feb 2, 2003)

The roundhouse is usually one of the "bread and butter" kicks (the others being the front kick and sidekick).  The most common roundhouse injury that I see tends to be the toes, but thats because we try to impact with the ball of the foot in our school.  

Does your school teach you to hit with your shin?  If it does, you could try throwing a roundhouse with your instep, or the ball of your foot.

If you've been trying to do that all along, then that just sounds weird.  There's no real reason that your sparring partner would want to absorb the impact from your shin on their arms- they'd get the worse end of the deal.  Take a look at your instructor's technique to make sure you're doing it right.


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## Angus (Feb 2, 2003)

Zepp, if he's coming from a Muay Thai school wherein he's taught to kick with his shin, there's no reason he should change to ball of the foot or instep. Instep is more injury prone than shin, and he won't be kicking with the right technique to be kicking properly with the ball of the foot given that shin roundhouse kicks are thrown drastically differently than those hitting with ball of the foot. That isn't the problem. 

The problem, like goldendragon mentioned, is probably just practice and experience. It's not the kick, it's the fighter, I would bet. You just have to know when to throw what kick and where, how to set it up, how to follow up, etc. Just stick with it and you'll get the hang of it soon enough. No kick has to be used more sparringly than others, they just have to be used at an appropriate time.


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## Kenpomachine (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hefeweizen _
> *Is the roundhouse kick mainly for self-defense application where a hard block is not likely?   I've almost stopped using the kick in sparring because I'm sick of it being blocked and giving me a golf ball sized lump and bruised shin.     *



You'are probably telegraphing the kick by starting it in a too open (wide?) trajectory. And if you're doing this with your back leg, then your opponent has more time to see the kick.


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## Les (Feb 2, 2003)

Obviously, during training you must expect to get the odd bruises and lumps.

One question that springs to mind.... is this a control issue?

There is a thread about control on this forum that it may be worth looking at.

It seems a bit strange to me that you're only experiencing this problem with roundhouse kicks.

Are you having the problem with just one sparring partner or with everyone?

Sounds like your school teaches people how to block properly though.

Les


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## yilisifu (Feb 2, 2003)

The roundhouse kick, because of it's fairly wide arc, can be (but doesn't have to be) a fairly obvious kick.  Since the opponent can see it easily, he can readily block it - especially if it's used as a "lead" technique rather than as a "follow-up" technique.


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## Seig (Feb 2, 2003)

Normally, I do not give away any information on kicking unless you are one of my students.  So far, I agree with most of you.  Take "Poin of Origin" and apply it to your round house kick.  To carry that one step further, make your round house kick a predominantly front leg kick, you'll see major differences.


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## Les (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Take "Poin of Origin" and apply it to your round house kick.  To carry that one step further, make your round house kick a predominantly front leg kick, you'll see major differences. *



Seig,

You seem to be describing it the same way I teach it.

Nice to see we're on the same page.

Les


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## JD_Nelson (Feb 2, 2003)

As I have been trained in my school, The roundhouse kick still moves through the chamber position.  Somewhat like a puch, as I remember it, all kicks and all punches have the same master keys.  Method of delivery is the difference I believe.  I will have to go consult with my instructor to be more accurate. 


This method seems to also allow for a change in kick because it allows you to move to the same master key as any other kick you would try to execute, because all kicks move one point or one recognizable position that they all have in common.  From this point you could execute the front, side, round house or back kick.
By using this point, and chamber position it may telgraph you partern that you are going to kick, but which one are you going to use?  

I apologize if this seems vague or rambly.  As a beginner i have a tough time explaining things the seniors get out in 1 sentence or less. 

Salute.

JD


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## Jill666 (Feb 2, 2003)

Once I felt comfortable with the kick, I started using the lead leg. The power generated by the leg, butt, hips feels great, and it's easy to follow up with a side thrust kick with the same leg or to charge into a knee lift or something with the other leg. 

Take some time with the kick, and I think you'll grow very fond of it. Try combinations, slowly. Yes, when it is blocked that can suck, but as others pointed out, injury-causing blocks while you are learning a technique is inexcusable.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 2, 2003)

I would venture to guess that he aimed and landed his roundhouse at the ribs and got elbowed. May be he telegraphed too badly and got stop kicked. 

The obvious solution is to feint and use combination kicks.


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Mar 12, 2003)

Different types of roundhouse are useful for different situations.

In actual self-defence, a roundhouse ball kick is generally preferable to an instep (or shin) if striking a hard target (BELIEVE ME!) The back of the knee or the groin is okay for instep or shin, though.

In sparring, only throw roundhouses of the primary leg (unless you want him to reach for it to set up another strike, then the back leg is alright.) Secondly, raise your knee as though it were for a front kick, then flip your hip as you rotate the ground foot (moving the heel toward your opponent) this will align you for a quick roundhouse to the belt or head, use the instep, not the ball to gain 6 to 8 inches reach. 

Hope that's helpful.


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Mar 12, 2003)

Thought of this after I posted the last message: if you're getting blocked on every roundhouse, even trying combinations, a) pick a new kick to lead with, or b) try this: throw your roundhouse to his lead hand and drop it without a full recoil, this should bring a good fighter toward you, as he will assume you lost balance. Bounce your foot off the floor as it hits and shuffle in for another quick roundhouse to the head. It works beautifully, at least the first time, but don't repeat this too often in a day or people will start to read it.


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## Old Warrior (Mar 13, 2003)

Crazy Chihuahua

You have it exactly as it was taught to me in 1967 in a classical Shotokan Karate Dojo.  Our distinction was what we called a classical roundhouse and a combat roundhouse.  In the combat version it started exactly like a front kick.  The hip rotation allowed the penetration and height to the head area.  It was only a technique that I would use against someone untrained or a lesser fighter.  If they closed the distance as the kick went out  -it could make for some painful clashes.


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Mar 13, 2003)

Old Warrior:

Thanks for the validation, but I think it can work on experienced fighters, too. I have had a lot of success with this technique. If you have quick feet, you can pull it off 80% of the time, if every once in a while you DO throw a front kick or rotate further into a side, neither of these will score on a consistent basis, but they will cause many opponents to back off for a second, and they almost always create some distance for you by forcing him off-angle in a direction he did not wish to go. Of course, if he is a fighter who likes to charge at you, you will have range problems, but you should be fighting him on the circle with quicker techniques than a roundhouse anyway, right?


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## Old Warrior (Mar 13, 2003)

Crazy Chihuahua

Back in the 60's we did basically point karate, with minimal contact, kumite.  On the street, the restriction of pants makes using the roundhouse technique above the waist, kind of prohibitive.

I trained hard with this technique for two reasons.  First I was a chubby kid who was very flexible and fast.  Nobody figured I could move that quickly and get up that high - so surprise was always on my side.  My favorite technique was: 1) left palm heel thrust to the face with moderate speed 2) simultaneous rear leg sweep with my instep to the opponents front leg, and then 3) the roundhouse from the floor to the head as fast as I could get it up there.  The palm heel thrust always caused the opponent to move to a back stance (or retreat a bit) to use distance as the defense.  The sweep was simply an attention getter down low(although if you didn't move it could put you down).  When I ripped off the roundhouse, the lesser skilled were always surprised that it got there at the odd angle.

The second reason I used the round house was self defense against street punchers - to the lead leg of the opponent.  If you connect it hurts and boxer types aren't use to getting slammed in the legs.  All those Mohammed Ali fast hands guys were unpreared for a low assault.

Now that I'm old - I rarely think about those days.  But 20 years of fencing and Kumdo keeps the spirit alive.


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Mar 14, 2003)

Old Warrior,

Very true, I'm definitely speaking on tournament sparring here with the hip-flip thing. 

I am a kenpo artist, born and raised, and i would never dream of kicking someone on the street in the head (unless it was already close to my foot.)


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hefeweizen _
> *I'm sick of it being blocked and giving me a golf ball sized lump and bruised shin.
> Thanks Aaron
> *



I hope you have found success with the roundhouse kick recently.  If not, try soccer shin pads under your regular pads to add protection.  Also work on those feints man!  

:asian:


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Mar 24, 2003)

> Also work on those feints man!



So true! I can't believe I forgot about fake-outs, I do it all the time. What works for me is to throw an actual full roundhouse about a foot and a half to the side of his head, this often causes a guy to reach out (the first time, anyway) to block and if you've got quick hands coming down, you can smoke him in the ribs, or sometimes a quick backknuckle to the head.


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## Elfan (Mar 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *The roundhouse kick, because of it's fairly wide arc, can be (but doesn't have to be) a fairly obvious kick.  Since the opponent can see it easily, he can readily block it - especially if it's used as a "lead" technique rather than as a "follow-up" technique. *



Is the wide arc neccesary?  Imagine you have lifted your leg up to kick.  If we imagined the hip at 0 degrees (top of the thigh parralel to the floor) and kicked and we would probably call it a front kick.  If we rotated the hip 90 degrees (thigh now faces the wall, perpindicular to the floor) and kicked we would probably call it a round house kick.  What about 1 degree of rotation? 45? 89?  It would seem to me that it would be best to varry the angle of our kick based on the target and weapon we have chosen.  Not because the kick "has to be that way."


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _*
> Is the wide arc for a round house kick neccesary?
> *



I NEVER throw a wide arc with this kick!  LOL

:asian:


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## Jester (Mar 25, 2003)

I find with both mid roundhouses and front kicks the biggest threat is ctahing the elbow (nasty people can do this on purpose as well).

There's not a great deal you can actually do about it, just look for your target a little better.


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## Elfan (Mar 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jester _
> *I find with both mid roundhouses and front kicks the biggest threat is ctahing the elbow (nasty people can do this on purpose as well).
> 
> There's not a great deal you can actually do about it, just look for your target a little better. *



I'm one of those nasty people that likes to do it (not allowed in the UFC though).


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