# The Ceasefire



## Big Don (Nov 22, 2012)

The Ceasefire 

                                                    By Andrew C. McCarthy National Review EXCERPT:

November 21, 2012 2:53 P.M.         ​



                                                                  It&#8217;s amusing to read (in Patrick&#8217;s update)  that the Israeli government has agreed, as part of the &#8220;ceasefire,&#8221; to  stop the &#8220;targeting of individuals.&#8221; What moral universe do we live in  where Hamas launches hundreds of missiles and sets off bombs the intent  of which is the mass homicide of civilians, yet what the world is  whipped up about is Israel&#8217;s targeted assassination of the jihadist  leaders who direct the mass homicide of civilians?

 If you&#8217;re actually concerned about human rights, Israel&#8217;s approach,  targeting the terror chiefs in order to minimize civilian casualties  (notwithstanding that Palestinian civilians are the ones who voted to  put Hamas in charge), compares quite favorably to Hamas&#8217;s intentional  targeting of civilians and its storage of military assets in and around  civilian infrastructure &#8212; guaranteeing that there will be Palestinian  civilian casualties when Israel inevitably reacts to Hamas&#8217;s relentless  provocations. If Israel is not going to target the terrorist leaders &#8212;  who then have license to orchestrate mass-murder attacks with impunity &#8212;  what is it going to target?
END EXCERPT
I agree, Israel shouldn't target individuals, they should carpet bomb the bastards, ala Dresden. Clearly the policy of carefully and with as little loss of civilian casualties, taking out those actively firing rockets into Israel doesn't work. Maybe if they actually slaughtered people like cattle, the terrorist rat bastards would think twice.


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## WC_lun (Nov 22, 2012)

Yeah, because more dead people are going to help the problem.  Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?

Israel agreed to stop targeting leaders of Humas because it is in thier own best interest to do so.  With Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood brokering the cease fire, if Humas breaks it, it puts the onus on Egypt to keep them in line.  Read; it is up to a Muslim country to keep the Muslim Humas in line.  This will further legitimize any actions Israel takes If Egypt does not do something when Humas breaks the ceasefire.  Its a win win scenario for Israel.  Right now they do not have to spend either treasure or lives for work to be done in thier behalf to stop the missiles.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2012)

It's not _if _Hamas break the ceasefire it's _when_ and that was three hours into it when they fired 20 rockets into Israel and then this http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162427#.UK7fVIfAeSo


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## WC_lun (Nov 23, 2012)

Agreed Tez.  Humas left to thier own devices will not stop the rocket attacks. Especially given thier fractured nature and thier inability to understand what is actually good for the Palastinian people as a whole.  Humas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood.  It is hoped that perhaps the Muslim Brotherhood can exert some influence, countering Iran's influence with Humas.  It will not be an overnight thing though. When Israel has finally had enough, Egypt will have to stand by them, telling the world that Humas refused to negotiate in good faith.  In my opinion, the cease fire is nothing more than a good pr campaign for Israel to negate the nonsense Humas has been releasing.  If it actually works in getting something solved, so much the better.  Though I think that is unlikely.


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## CanuckMA (Nov 23, 2012)

First, it's Hamas.

They have no problem policing the 'collaborators'. They control Gaza. They could control Islamic Jihad if they wanted. Problem, they don't want to. It's just to damn convenient to call for a cease fire and when rockets are still flying, turn to the world and declare "It's not us. It's IJ". Unfortunately, too much of the world eats it up.


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## WC_lun (Nov 23, 2012)

Sorry about the misspelling.  I might be a little hungry and did a Freudian slip 

Hamas is more than capable of doing what you say.  However, I think Egypt will exert as much pressure as they can.  Egypt is hoping that the Palastinians will organize into something that can be dealt with politically, creating another ally for Egypt and one that distrust Israel.  So I think they will work hard for peace.  I do not think Hamas has the ability to become solidified enough to understand what is in thier own best interest though.  They continue to cry about how oppressed the Palastinians are, yet they oppress the Palastinians as well.  Palastinian civilians suffer when Israel counter attacks against missile launches, yet they continue to attack, provoking Israel to do just that.  I believe Egypt will find out what Israel already knows, that negotiating with Hamas is like negotiating with a very spoiled child bent on doing something self destructive.


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## granfire (Nov 23, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> Sorry about the misspelling.  I might be a little hungry and did a Freudian slip
> 
> Hamas is more than capable of doing what you say.  However, I think Egypt will exert as much pressure as they can.  Egypt is hoping that the Palastinians will organize into something that can be dealt with politically, creating another ally for Egypt and one that distrust Israel.  So I think they will work hard for peace.  I do not think Hamas has the ability to become solidified enough to understand what is in thier own best interest though.  They continue to cry about how oppressed the Palastinians are, yet they oppress the Palastinians as well.  Palastinian civilians suffer when Israel counter attacks against missile launches, yet they continue to attack, provoking Israel to do just that.  I believe Egypt will find out what Israel already knows, that negotiating with Hamas is like negotiating with a very spoiled child bent on doing something self destructive.



Oh, Honey. To hell with the civilians...they are no better than sheep.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2012)

Hamas however take their orders from Iran who train and bankroll them. 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/21/iran-supplied-hamas-missile-technology

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9103086332

A lot of people have been voicing their opinion that Israel should bomb Iran's nuclear facilities, many thinking that this would come sooner rather than later so it's no surprise that Iran primes Hamas to attack Israel is it? Many people have been pushing Israel to bomb Iran, perhaps they may like to think twice in the future.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 23, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Hamas however take their orders from Iran who train and bankroll them.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/21/iran-supplied-hamas-missile-technology
> 
> http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9103086332
> ...



What if "Hamas" is a psyop designed to provoke war with Iran?  Have governments ever pretended to be their own enemies and attack themselves in order to provoke a wider war, one that would be unpopular with the people unless a "greater threat" materializes?


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## CanuckMA (Nov 23, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> What if "Hamas" is a psyop designed to provoke war with Iran?  Have governments ever pretended to be their own enemies and attack themselves in order to provoke a wider war, one that would be unpopular with the people unless a "greater threat" materializes?




Not quite sure if that is the sickest or stupidiest thing you've ever written. Considering that Hamas has been lobbing rockets at Israel for more than a decade, long before a war with iran was even a consideration.


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## WC_lun (Nov 23, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> What if "Hamas" is a psyop designed to provoke war with Iran?  Have governments ever pretended to be their own enemies and attack themselves in order to provoke a wider war, one that would be unpopular with the people unless a "greater threat" materializes?



I think your tin foil hat might be on too tight


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## Makalakumu (Nov 23, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> Not quite sure if that is the sickest or stupidiest thing you've ever written. Considering that Hamas has been lobbing rockets at Israel for more than a decade, long before a war with iran was even a consideration.



http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/pub607.pdf



> This monograph examines the role of pseudo operations in several
> foreign counterinsurgency campaigns. Pseudo operations are those
> in which government forces disguised as guerrillas, normally along
> with guerrilla defectors, operate as teams to infiltrate insurgent
> ...



And

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html



> Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr.  Cohen, *Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as  a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation  Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah.* Israel  cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin,  even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas.  Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent  war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with "Yassins,"  primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric.



I think some people are WAY to trusting of their favorite governments.  We need to have A LOT more skepticism or we're going to keep falling for the same OLD tricks.  The "stupid" and "tin foil" comments are uncalled for, IMO.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> What if "Hamas" is a psyop designed to provoke war with Iran? Have governments ever pretended to be their own enemies and attack themselves in order to provoke a wider war, one that would be unpopular with the people unless a "greater threat" materializes?



Are you going to highjack this thread as well with your conspiracy theories? You're a nice chap but not on the same planet as us sometimes.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 23, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Are you going to highjack this thread as well with your conspiracy theories? You're a nice chap but not on the same planet as us sometimes.



I won't hijack the thread, but I just wanted to point something out. I don't actually know what is going on and I don't think I'll ever be privy to the real info. Also, I think an amount of skepticism with this situation is completely warented. Governments play their citizens as dupes all of the time and Israel has done so with Hamas in the past.

If any specific information comes to light in regards to this situation, I'll post it.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> I won't hijack the thread, but I just wanted to point something out. I don't actually know what is going on and I don't think I'll ever be privy to the real info. Also, I think an amount of skepticism with this situation is completely warented. Governments play their citizens as dupes all of the time and *Israel has done so with Hamas in the past.
> *
> If any specific information comes to light in regards to this situation, I'll post it.



So you are saying that Hamas is actually an Israeli run organisation designed to garner what exactly? You know you come up with some really sick thoughts sometimes. You really think that Jews would come up with a sick plan to kill other Jews and blame it on the Arabs? You're right, you know nothing, as if there aren't enough Arabs trying to kill Jews you want there to be Jews killing Jews too. 


>shakes head in disbelief<


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## CanuckMA (Nov 23, 2012)

You truly don't understand Israel and Israelis. Canadians play hockey, Americans play football, Israelis hold elections. Since it's inception, there has never been a majority government in Israel. Criticizing the government is an art. No government would survive what you accuse them of. Even more so when the majority of Israelis between 18 and 51 are either active duty or reserve. It is a country more than any other who does not want a war. War is devastating to Israel's economy, beyond the actual costs, there is the tremendous loss of productivity as the reserves are mobilized. 

May I suggest you educate yourself before spouting off.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 23, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> So you are saying that Hamas is actually an Israeli run organisation designed to garner what exactly? You know you come up with some really sick thoughts sometimes. You really think that Jews would come up with a sick plan to kill other Jews and blame it on the Arabs? You're right, you know nothing, as if there aren't enough Arabs trying to kill Jews you want there to be Jews killing Jews too.
> 
> 
> >shakes head in disbelief<



This is beyond naive. All governments are capable of sacrificing it's own citizens for the greater good.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 23, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> You truly don't understand Israel and Israelis. Canadians play hockey, Americans play football, Israelis hold elections. Since it's inception, there has never been a majority government in Israel. Criticizing the government is an art. No government would survive what you accuse them of. Even more so when the majority of Israelis between 18 and 51 are either active duty or reserve. It is a country more than any other who does not want a war. War is devastating to Israel's economy, beyond the actual costs, there is the tremendous loss of productivity as the reserves are mobilized.
> 
> May I suggest you educate yourself before spouting off.



I think you have way too much faith in government and way too little understanding of propaganda. That's intentional, btw.


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## CanuckMA (Nov 23, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> This is beyond naive. All governments are capable of sacrificing it's own citizens for the greater good.



Then you truly don't understand the Israeli mindset. 

What could possibly make you even think that israel wants a war with Iran, which would have a great possibility to engulfing the entire region?

If you want a glimpse at what the Israeli government will do for it's citizens, look no further than what they gave up for Gilat Shalit.


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## CanuckMA (Nov 23, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> I think you have way too much faith in government and way too little understanding of propaganda. That's intentional, btw.



Considering my background, I have very good understanding what propaganda can do.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 23, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> Considering my background, I have very good understanding what propaganda can do.



This is actually what I study as part of my graduate work.  I am specializing in empirical studies that show how government schooling pedagogy increases a student's propensity to obey authority.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> This is beyond naive. All governments are capable of sacrificing it's own citizens for the greater good.



Naive, hardly, you put forward such a ridiculous idea that doesn't make any sense. You are off into Ickeland again, so stop twisting what is said. 

We've been all through this when you accused the British government of much the same thing in Afghanistan yet you actually overlook the fact that what you accuse governments of doing isn't to the countries, the politicians or in fact anyone's 'good'.

 I don't suppose you'd care to explain what the 'greater good' would be in Israel getting Hamas to attack them? With hoards of Arabs waiting to do this anyway what's the point of funding Hamas? The huge amount of time, effort and money that would have to be spent on Hamas would (actually is) better spent on Israel defending itself from it's very real enemies which of course Hamas actually is.

You are doing what you did on my Afghan thread, infering we are all too stupid to understand what the wicked politicians are doing to us, that we are all brainwashed and of course the only one that knows the truth is you. I don't suppose you have ever thought that perhaps it's you that is the one who is doolally not us?

You don't know better than I do about Britain, ( I'm sure many do know more but they will be British too) you don't know more than Canuck and I about the Jewish mindset so please stop telling everyone you know best when it's clear you don't. If you have conspiracy theories at least make them sensible ones that actually could be true, thinking that Jews pay an Arab terrorist group to attack them is just plain laughable. If you had said that the Israelis set up Hamas to fool the Palestinians into peace talks then that would have been believeable.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> This is actually what I study as part of my graduate work. I am specializing in empirical studies that show how government schooling pedagogy increases a student's propensity to obey authority.




You study Canuck's background?

A lot of government propaganda is flawed then as students are known for their inability to 'obey'!

Again though I assume you are talking about your country, I imagine though there may be plenty who disgree with you and that perhaps a bit more propaganda much help! Looking at the way society seems to be going, most people aren't obeying any government.


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## arnisador (Nov 23, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> What could possibly make you even think that israel wants a war with Iran, which would have a great possibility to engulfing the entire region?



Yup--that's a really bad scenario for them. They may decide it has to happen if Iran appears to be close to developing nukes, but they do not want a war with Iran and all that that would entail.



CanuckMA said:


> Considering my background, I have very good understanding what propaganda can do.



Ah yes, the fearsome Canadian propaganda machine!


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## Makalakumu (Nov 23, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> Then you truly don't understand the Israeli mindset.
> 
> What could possibly make you even think that israel wants a war with Iran, which would have a great possibility to engulfing the entire region?
> 
> If you want a glimpse at what the Israeli government will do for it's citizens, look no further than what they gave up for Gilat Shalit.










> On September 27, 2012, Israel Prime Minister Benjamin (Bibi) Netanyahu  addressed the General Assembly of the United Nations.  He spoke about  the danger Iran poses to the world, and Radical Islam.  Netanyahu  presented the danger radical Islam, and Iran pose to the world.   Netanyahu clearly presented the Jewish claim to the land of Israel.
> 
> Netanyahu  asked for a redline before Iran completes Stage 2 of the uranium  enrichment process and made the case to the world on a chart with a  drawing of a bomb on it that the entire Western world faces danger if  Iran succeeds.



This speech was fear mongering war propaganda, albeit ridiculous, especially when he draws the cartoon bomb at the end.  Sheesh.

Still, to give the average Israeli credit, they don't support him.  Polls show that most Israelis understand that war with Iran would be a terrible thing and would be against a war with Iran.

What needs to be understood is that this is where governments will often use or create incidents to promote unpopular policies.  When these types of situations happen, all of the people need to have their skepticism meters turned to the max.  Or, to use a Star Trek reference, we cannot let our shields go down.  The bottom line is that Israel is capable of using psuedogangs to manipulate the public.  Not only is it a legitimate tactic for modern military psyops, Israel has a documented history of collaborating and supporting Hamas to do this very thing.  It is not out of the realm of possibility that a government would make a cease fire and break it by using a psuedogang.

Of course, lets be really clear about what else exactly what the government of Israel is capable of, because this might also explain why there might be enough legitimate anger to break a cease fire.  Maybe there is actually no need for psuedogangs.

http://news.antiwar.com/2012/10/17/...orie-needs-in-gaza-blockade-documents-reveal/



> The Israeli military meticulously and callously calculated the number  of calories Gaza residents would need to consume in order not to  starve, and used those calculations to inform how to impose a harsh  economic blockade on the Palestinians, according to newly released documents.
> 
> 
> In  the January 2008 document, Israel decided to allow Gazans to eat 2,279  calories worth of food each day, as if they were dogs in a cage. They  estimated therefore that they would allow 1,836 grams of food per  person, per day.
> ...



Look how quickly some people forget and look how quickly a government can transform.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauthausen-Gusen_concentration_camp



> The work in the quarries &#8212; often in unbearable heat or in temperatures as low as &#8722;30 °C (&#8722;22 °F)[SUP][28][/SUP] &#8212; led to exceptionally high mortality rates.[SUP][41][/SUP][SUP][c][/SUP] The food rations were limited, and during the 1940&#8211;1942 period, an average inmate weighed 40 kilograms,[SUP][42][/SUP]  roughly 88 pounds. It is estimated that the average energy content of  food rations dropped from about 1,750 calories a day during the  1940&#8211;1942 period, to between 1,150 and 1,460 during the next period. In  1945, the energy content was even lower and did not exceed 600 to 1,000  calories a day; that is less than a third of the energy needed by an  average worker in heavy industry.[SUP][1][/SUP] This led to the starvation of thousands of inmates.



What kind of governments use food as a weapon?  What are they capable of?


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## Makalakumu (Nov 23, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Naive, hardly, you put forward such a ridiculous idea that doesn't make any sense. You are off into Ickeland again, so stop twisting what is said.
> 
> We've been all through this when you accused the British government of much the same thing in Afghanistan yet you actually overlook the fact that what you accuse governments of doing isn't to the countries, the politicians or in fact anyone's 'good'.
> 
> ...



"There is only one way to stop the threat from Iran.  We need to place a clear red line in regards to Iran's nuclear program."


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2012)

I'm torn between laughing at you tryng to teach Canuck something he knows about far more than you do ( so much so you insult his intelligence) and sighing for your sanity.

You know your last post made no sense what so ever? You're burbling. You've lost it mate, really lost it.


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## arnisador (Nov 23, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Makalakumu said:
> 
> 
> > This is actually what I study as part of my  graduate work.  I am specializing in empirical studies that show how  government schooling pedagogy increases a student's propensity to obey  authority.
> ...



I am highly confident that the Bible college distance program guiding this study endorsing homeschooling and taxpayer-funded private school vouchers has its _own _flaws and propaganda. In an actual academic institution one would study _whether _"government schooling pedagogy increases a student's propensity to obey  authority" rather than starting from the desired conclusion and reasoning backward to possible justifications for believing it. As though the alternative of religiously-based home- and private-schools doesn't have the claimed effect...regardless, philosophically objectionable or not, a government probably should encourage respect of said government's authority amongst its citizens, within reason. (Does anyone doubt that Israeli public schools encourage pro-Israeli sentiment?) But as you point out..anyone familiar with a public school can see just how well it works in practice!


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## Makalakumu (Nov 23, 2012)

arnisador said:


> I am highly confident that the Bible college distance program guiding this study endorsing homeschooling and taxpayer-funded private school vouchers has its _own _flaws and propaganda. In an actual academic institution one would study _whether _"government schooling pedagogy increases a student's propensity to obey  authority" rather than starting from the desired conclusion and reasoning backward to possible justifications for believing it. As though the alternative of religiously-based home- and private-schools doesn't have the claimed effect...regardless, philosophically objectionable or not, a government probably should encourage respect of said government's authority amongst its citizens, within reason. (Does anyone doubt that Israeli public schools encourage pro-Israeli sentiment?) But as you point out..anyone familiar with a public school can see just how well it works in practice!



That's a bigger assumption than asuming that a government might create an event to start a war. Lol.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> That's a bigger assumption than asuming that a government might create an event to start a war. Lol.



Now you see that's you thinking Icke style again, we aren't talking about a 'government' creating an event to start a war, we are actually talking about a ceasefire in a current situation.

You are doing what you tried on my thread, to turn the subject around to your pet subjects. Please don't derail this thread as well. 

I hope a mod. will put up a reminder to stay on subject.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 23, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Now you see that's you thinking Icke style again, we aren't talking about a 'government' creating an event to start a war, we are actually talking about a ceasefire in a current situation.
> 
> You are doing what you tried on my thread, to turn the subject around to your pet subjects. Please don't derail this thread as well.
> 
> I hope a mod. will put up a reminder to stay on subject.



Okay, well I've said enough anyway. There is reason enough for skepticism, especially when we start tying this to Iran. It gets me worried.


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## arnisador (Nov 23, 2012)

What I'm seeing in the news is (claimed) ceasefire violations on both sides.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2012)

We have enough scepticism between us, however that also attaches to the things you post. You want us to doubt everything except what you post. 
Thinking that Israel would 'invent' Hamas to have it attack here is beyond weird, there's simply no mileage in it for them quite the opposite. 
You should be worried but for very real reasons not made up ones, there's enough evil in the world without you seeing something that isn't there. Seeing conspiracies everywhere leaves you in danger of missing the very real dangers under your nose.


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## CanuckMA (Nov 24, 2012)

Mala,

In case you don't pay attention to the glimpses we somethimes offer into our personnal lives, I, and Tez as well, am way to familiar to propangada and what it can do. See, propangada played a huge role in the wipping out of our families.

Now, for a conspiracy and propangada machine to work, it has to have  a goal and the inner workings be kept secret. Remember what I hinted at earlier, that elections are Israel's national sport. Think this one through. There are dozens of political parties in Israel. Each party submits a ranked lists of 'candicates'. People vote for a party, and then the Knesset if allocated by %. Because of that, there has never been a majority government in Israel, and elections are frequent. Perties will jump on any little tidbit that may give it an advantage. Small parties always end up holding the balance of power. Any one of then getting a sniff that attacks on Israel were orchestrated by a political party would be exploited right away.

And Israelis don't need false flag operations to justify military actions. There are enough just causes as it is. 

Of all the democracies in the world, the one that needs the least to create false flags, and that has the most to lose from them is Israel.


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## Tez3 (Nov 24, 2012)

I expect this is some people's idea of Israel breaking the ceasefire.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4311048,00.html


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## Tez3 (Nov 25, 2012)

http://www.israelandstuff.com/hamas...up-condemn-jewish-state#.ULIct5mOUas.facebook


Well, well, well, this must be a good nomination for the hypocrite of the year award.


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## granfire (Nov 25, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> http://www.israelandstuff.com/hamas...up-condemn-jewish-state#.ULIct5mOUas.facebook
> 
> 
> Well, well, well, this must be a good nomination for the hypocrite of the year award.



can we deliver it with a drone?

:angel:


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## Big Don (Nov 29, 2012)




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## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ViFr3oIM4M&feature=youtu.be

'The end of Israel is the goal but you can't say that to the world....'


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## CanuckMA (Nov 30, 2012)

Obviously mistranslated and taken out of context. The peace seeking palestinians would never say such a thing. :boing1:


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## granfire (Nov 30, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> Obviously mistranslated and taken out of context. The peace seeking palestinians would never say such a thing. :boing1:



Hah. (I am having PETA moment flashbacks...when supporters say 'the quote is taken out of context)

I know you are being heavily sarcastic....



Anyhow, how does the UN resolution of granting statehood to the palestinians play into this?


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## CanuckMA (Nov 30, 2012)

It does not. Not surprisingly, in the same way as the Palestinian refugees do not meet the UN's definition of a refugee, hence the separate agency, the Palestinian state does not meet any of the criteria the UN has for a state.

It could backfire, big. next series of attack, Israel could then react against a country and declare war. Same with the ICC. Can go both ways.

At the end, the Palestinians will have their state through negotiation with Israel.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 30, 2012)

Big Don said:


> The Ceasefire
> 
> By Andrew C. McCarthy National Review EXCERPT:
> 
> ...


Gonna make TEZ proud with talk like that.


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