# Is MMA A Martial Art?



## Indie12

Here's an old question, Is Mixed Martial Arts, Truly A Martial Art? Could It Be Considered A Martial Art?
What constitutes a 'True' Martial Art?


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## Cyriacus

No. It is a Fighting System comprised of a Mixture of Martial Arts.


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## Indie12

Cyriacus said:


> No. It is a Fighting System comprised of a Mixture of Martial Arts.



Well how do 'you' mix Martial Arts? Especially if they are complete systems?


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## Ironcrane

I'd say that MMA is a martial art.

Almost every singe style of martial arts has borrowed something from other martial arts, so I don't think MMA doesn't count as a martial art because it is made of mixed styles.


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## Tez3

Where's the popcorn? There is a sticky at the top of this entitled 'what is MMA'. This is an old and not good argument that will run for a while, get personal then be blocked, mark my words.


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## Cyriacus

Indie12 said:


> Well how do 'you' mix Martial Arts? Especially if they are complete systems?


You dont.

MMA Gyms take parts of them, then piece them back together.
For example, a common blend Ive seen is Kickboxing + Muay Thai + BJJ + Sport Tae Kwon Do. Sometimes with a couple of slivers of Freestyle in there.

You cannot completely combine complete Systems. Its literally impossible.

A Fighting System is a better term than Martial Arts System for MMA, since whilst it is of a Martial Art style, it isnt a Martial Art unto itself. Its other Martial Arts.


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## Blindside

MMA is a sport ruleset, the athletes competing under those rules use various martial arts to compete under that ruleset.


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## Tez3

Blindside said:


> MMA is a sport ruleset, the athletes competing under those rules use various martial arts to compete under that ruleset.



To paraphrase Dr Higgins, 'By Jove he's got it!'.  Exactly right!!!

On a side note, I've never known another style to be so much the focus of other styles trying to decide what it is!!


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## Steve

I think that MMA is well on its way to becoming a bone fide martial arts style.  While still in its infancy, I believe that a strong case can be made that MMA has, over the last 20 or so years, become a recognizable, legitimate martial arts style.  

For myself, a martial art is something that recognizable and discrete.  It's a body of techniques and a curriculum that are consistent and taught 'as' that style.  There are techniques that are consistent among the schools.  But there is also something that distinguishes the curriculum from other, similar styles. 

Currently, there are few people who enter MMA competitions without training at an MMA gym.  Many still have foundations in other martial arts styles, but that's rapidly changing.  So, while a guy like Lyoto Machida has done well at an elite level in MMA, his reputation as a "karate guy" is more about marketing than reality.  He does hold rank in Shotokan karate, but he's also a BJJ black belt, and has trained in many other styles of martial arts including sumo (IINM).  But most importantly, he trains in a top quality MMA gym with guys like Anderson Silva and Antonio Nogiera.  

Point is, in order to learn MMA, you have to train MMA.  Regardless of your base, you'd be foolish to do otherwise.  

MMA gyms are sprouting up and the curriculum is becoming better defined.  There are people who are joining MMA gyms and are learning "MMA."  The techniques can be found in other martial arts styles, but guys are learning a style of martial arts who have never done anything else.  They are learning something called "MMA" and are excelling, as well.  Guys like Jon Jones, who started training in MMA with high school wrestling as his only "martial arts" background.  Locally, this can be seen quite a bit more as kids are wandering into MMA schools to learn "MMA."  

MMA techniques can be found in other individual styles, but what is rapidly distinguishing MMA as its own style, IMO, are the transitions and the subtle variations on the techniques.  For example, the double leg takedown is a common wrestling technique, but if you do it the same way you would in freestyle wrestling, you're going to get guillotined.  The cross or jab are similar to what you'll see in Western Boxing, but if done in a traditional boxing stance you're risking leg kicks or takedowns.  So, the same techniques are evolving.  

The transitions are unique to MMA.  Moving from striking range into the clinch and from there to the ground (and back) isn't an emphasis in any other martial arts style.  Using striking AND grappling at every range isn't emphasized, either. 

I could go into more detail, but the upshot of all of this is that MMA is definitely a martial art, IMO.  A young and evolving martial art, but it's as legit as any other.


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## Cyriacus

Let Me start by saying, I am not disagreeing with You. We are discussing, not debating. But its 2am, and I may end up phrasing some things a bit bluntly, rather than expanding them to sound more balanced. You have been warned 



Steve said:


> I think that MMA is well on its way to becoming a bone fide martial arts style.  While still in its infancy, I believe that a strong case can be made that MMA has, over the last 20 or so years, become a recognizable, legitimate martial arts style.
> 
> **Reads on*
> 
> For myself, a martial art is something that recognizable and discrete.  It's a body of techniques and a curriculum that are consistent and taught 'as' that style.  There are techniques that are consistent among the schools.  But there is also something that distinguishes the curriculum from other, similar styles.
> 
> *&#8203;Perhaps. But all MMA Emphasizes slightly different things. Id be more inclined to agree, if MMA stopped being split between "Kickboxing with Wrestling" and "BJJ with Striking". In other words, theyre too different from one another at this stage. Ive never seen two MMA Gyms that Train in the same stuff. I can only imagine how that is on an International level.
> **Now Im not saying its Impossible. Kajukenbo Karate is a blend of numerous Systems. The difference is, it actually became a System based on a Mixture of Martial Arts, which is different to something that individually teaches stuff out of numerous MA Systems.
> **Were the definition of MMA to become more specialised, and perhaps assume a new Identity however...*
> 
> Currently, there are few people who enter MMA competitions without training at an MMA gym.  Many still have foundations in other martial arts styles, but that's rapidly changing.  So, while a guy like Lyoto Machida has done well at an elite level in MMA, his reputation as a "karate guy" is more about marketing than reality.  He does hold rank in Shotokan karate, but he's also a BJJ black belt, and has trained in many other styles of martial arts including sumo (IINM).  But most importantly, he trains in a top quality MMA gym with guys like Anderson Silva and Antonio Nogiera.
> 
> *An MMA Gym which Teaches the stuff out of Numerous Systems, much like how He brings some of His Karate, into MMA. Adding to the Mixture.*
> 
> Point is, in order to learn MMA, you have to train MMA.  Regardless of your base, you'd be foolish to do otherwise.
> 
> *Id phrase that as, in order to Participate in MMA, You have to Train MMA, and thereby Learn MMA.*
> 
> MMA gyms are sprouting up and the curriculum is becoming better defined.  There are people who are joining MMA gyms and are learning "MMA."  The techniques can be found in other martial arts styles, but guys are learning a style of martial arts who have never done anything else.  They are learning something called "MMA" and are excelling, as well.  Guys like Jon Jones, who started training in MMA with high school wrestling as his only "martial arts" background.  Locally, this can be seen quite a bit more as kids are wandering into MMA schools to learn "MMA."
> 
> *I slide right back to how different Individual MMA Gyms are. They are highly subjective as to what is actually being taught.*
> 
> MMA techniques can be found in other individual styles, but what is rapidly distinguishing MMA as its own style, IMO, are the transitions and the subtle variations on the techniques.  For example, the double leg takedown is a common wrestling technique, but if you do it the same way you would in freestyle wrestling, you're going to get guillotined.
> 
> *I shall interject here - Was the BJJ Double Leg not around before the surge of Popularity in MMA?
> **I for one find the Double Leg Takedown to have so many variations, as well as Methods (Or more accurately, when theyre used), to distinguish the System that taught it. BJJ, with a Grappling Focus? JJ, with a balance between Striking, Takedowns, and Grappling? And so on.*
> 
> The cross or jab are similar to what you'll see in Western Boxing, but if done in a traditional boxing stance you're risking leg kicks or takedowns.  So, the same techniques are evolving.
> 
> *The Jab, Straight, and Cross are also taught in numerous Martial Arts, in what are inevitably more flexible stances for the same reasons You listed, albeit not as a part of MMA. MMA is not the first System to operate under that idea with those strikes. Hell, even Boxing is applied differently from Gym to Gym. Theres Outfighting themed Gyms, Infighting themed, Mixed, and some that encourage Clinching. Some emphasise Speed, others Power. And so on.*
> 
> The transitions are unique to MMA.  Moving from striking range into the clinch and from there to the ground (and back) isn't an emphasis in any other martial arts style.  Using striking AND grappling at every range isn't emphasized, either.
> 
> *The Striking AND Grappling at every Range Ill Agree with, but I will also say that its much like how MT involves alot of Clinching. Its because They put themselves in that position, most of the time. In MT Comps, this is. Movement from Striking Range to Clinch to Ground Ive seen done in JJ, and Kenpo Karate. It certainly isnt emphasised, but its Taught. MMA does however, have that as its Focus. And so we go back to "Kickboxing with Grappling, or BJJ with Striking", as I mentioned before.*
> 
> I could go into more detail, but the upshot of all of this is that MMA is definitely a martial art, IMO.  A young and evolving martial art, but it's as legit as any other.
> 
> *Id say it isnt. Yet.
> **It absolutely has the potential to be, but as it is, it is far too varied and different from place to place, let alone inconsistent. I would argue that MMA, as it is, provides its Practitioners with a broad spectrum of capabilities, and lets them decide which spectrum they prefer.
> **Now, if Training in High-Level MMA were less appropriated towards the particular Fight (If a Striker is going against a known Grappler, after studying their Videos, I believe it is rather common to tone up on whatever they believe they need to tone up on).
> This leaves the System unfocused, since it becomes not only about the Skill of the Fighter, but also what They have Planned for that Fight.
> Martial Arts, in context, ought need to be adaptable to any Situation without needing to be pre-prepared. This can be easily fixed, certainly.
> But as it is, I do not believe MMA is a Martial Art. It is a Fighting System, that if it were to become less varied and different, and perhaps a bit less Competition Oriented (As in, UFC Style Competition. Competition is fine, but I mean as a Focus. You ought be able to generally Learn MMA without aspiring to any kind of Medal or Trophy, or Reward, if it is to be a MA). It HAS the Potential. It just needs to be taken up, on a very large scale spectrum. *



EDIT: Taken up in a way that doesnt wind up damaging the System.


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## Steve

Cyriacus said:


> Let Me start by saying, I am not disagreeing with You. We are discussing, not debating. But its 2am, and I may end up phrasing some things a bit bluntly, rather than expanding them to sound more balanced. You have been warned
> 
> EDIT: Taken up in a way that doesnt wind up damaging the System.


First, just a pet peeve, but responding inline as you do makes it difficult to reply as your text and my original post become jumbled up.  

So, since I'm not going to bother cutting and pasting to try and answer you point for point, I'll just sum up.  What I believe distinguishes MMA as a unique martial art are several simple characteristics.

First, it's very easily identified for what it is.  When someone is training or performing MMA, you can easily tell.  Even a layman can tell with at most a cursory understanding of the art.  Just as someone with no formal Aikido, Wing Chun, Western Boxing, TKD or Fencing would be able to identify these.  

Second, there is a unique tactical perspective in MMA.  The strategies and tactics are evolved so that it is more than the sum of its unique components.  In other words, it's more than just BJJ and Boxing or any other simplistic combination of other martial arts.  

Third, there are schools that specialize in its instruction, and these schools are critical to learning MMA.  In other words, if you want to learn MMA, you MUST train in a good school.  

Fourth, there are competent martial artists who are learning MMA first.  They are not learning Wrestling and then BJJ and then Boxing and then MMA.  Rather, they are learning MMA at a school that teaches MMA.  

Bottom line is this: it's not the things that are the same.  It's the things that are different that distinguish MMA as a martial art.  Every art shares traits and techniques. 

Edit:  You asked about BJJ, there is a double leg taught much as the morote gari throw from Judo.  But it's really not the same thing.  Related to the point I'm trying to make, there are subtleties that distinguish it from a wrestling take down.  And the double leg used in MMA is somewhere between the two.


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## Cyriacus

And I have a per peeve with having to take the time to re-add the Quote Tags for every section I want to address. 



Steve said:


> First, just a pet peeve, but responding inline as you do makes it difficult to reply as your text and my original post become jumbled up.
> 
> So, since I'm not going to bother cutting and pasting to try and answer you point for point, I'll just sum up.  What I believe distinguishes MMA as a unique martial art are several simple characteristics.
> 
> First, it's very easily identified for what it is.  When someone is training or performing MMA, you can easily tell.  Even a layman can tell with at most a cursory understanding of the art.  Just as someone with no formal Aikido, Wing Chun, Western Boxing, TKD or Fencing would be able to identify these.
> 
> Second, there is a unique tactical perspective in MMA.  The strategies and tactics are evolved so that it is more than the sum of its unique components.  In other words, it's more than just BJJ and Boxing or any other simplistic combination of other martial arts.
> 
> Third, there are schools that specialize in its instruction, and these schools are critical to learning MMA.  In other words, if you want to learn MMA, you MUST train in a good school.
> 
> Fourth, there are competent martial artists who are learning MMA first.  They are not learning Wrestling and then BJJ and then Boxing and then MMA.  Rather, they are learning MMA at a school that teaches MMA.
> 
> Bottom line is this: it's not the things that are the same.  It's the things that are different that distinguish MMA as a martial art.  Every art shares traits and techniques.
> 
> Edit:  You asked about BJJ, there is a double leg taught much as the morote gari throw from Judo.  But it's really not the same thing.  Related to the point I'm trying to make, there are subtleties that distinguish it from a wrestling take down.  And the double leg used in MMA is somewhere between the two.


I see whats occuring here - Were coming to different conclusions from the same point, and Your point is interesting.

Its coming down to the fact that every variation of MMA is different.
On those grounds, You find MMA to be, from that, its own System of Martial Art, where I see it as being too spread out to be an Individual System, as oppose to multiple Mixtures.

Thankyou for Your Time


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## Steve

They're different within a fixed range.  Whether it is miletich mma or Gracie mma or Greg Jackson mma or machida mma, you know instantly that it's mma.  

Just as you see slight variation within karate whether it's shotokan, kyokushin or some other style.  Or look at wing chun, ving tsun, etc.  all different, but the same.

There are different flavors of mma, but they're all instantly recogniazable As mma.


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## Thesemindz

I think the answer depends entirely on where and how it is taught. Depending on the school, "MMA" could be a training philosophy, a system of techniques, a specific sport education, whatever the instructor knows done in boxing shorts inside an octagon, pure marketing, or a traditional approach to learning a system of fighting in multiple ranges. What constitutes what is and isn't a martial art? These kind of distinctions are abritrary anyway. We're all learning violence, what we call it is more a matter of personal preference. MMA practitioners _may_ learn to fight if they a have a good instructor teaching quality material and they are diligent students. That's enough for me. But I also consider Western Boxing and Olympic Taekwondo martial arts. For me, "martial arts" means studying fighting. If they did that in an MMA school, they'd pass my standard.


-Rob


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## Cyriacus

Steve said:


> They're different within a fixed range.  Whether it is miletich mma or Gracie mma or Greg Jackson mma or machida mma, you know instantly that it's mma.
> 
> Just as you see slight variation within karate whether it's shotokan, kyokushin or some other style.  Or look at wing chun, ving tsun, etc.  all different, but the same.
> 
> There are different flavors of mma, but they're all instantly recogniazable As mma.
> 
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


The difference is perhaps that Karate started out as numerous different Systems of the same name - Theyre not all just Karate.

As for being recognisable, do You mean, if someone were to see two MMA Practitioners in plain clothes Sparring, Theyd know it right away?

The Variation is fine, but what I take issue to is how broad it is. Being both Grappling and Striking is fine, it lets the Student decide how They want to do things. But Im more referring to the Sourcing. Some MMA uses Kickboxers Round Kicks, some use KKW TKD Round Kicks, some us Muay Thai Round Kicks, and so on and so forth. Then theres the difference between the many archetypes of JJ, and BJJ, and Judo, and Wrestling. The issue I take from the Variation is that it comes from so many different roots, and is as a result, inconsistent.
Punches are another example. You have the Boxers Cross, the Kickboxing Cross is slightly different, You have the Karate Cross, TKD Cross, Muay Thai Cross, and so forth.
The difference is subtle, but Ill leap to Your example, of different Karate Systems.
The way they Train is different, as are their Focuses. But theyre all based on the same basic motions. 
The best example is the Side Kick.




Pay attention to how the Knee is slightly sideways during its chamber.




Different striking surface, more or less the same chamber.
Now,
a Sport TKD Side Kick.




Or,
another Side Kick.




I think thats enough examples for Me to go on to say, that were You to go between different MMA Gyms, You may well learn a different Side Kick at one, to what You will at another.
And now apply that to various other Strikes, Grappling Methods, Holds, and whatnot.

Its the lack of consistency I take issue to, more than anything else.
Again, it absolutely has the potential.


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## Indie12

Tez3 said:


> Where's the popcorn? There is a sticky at the top of this entitled 'what is MMA'. This is an old and not good argument that will run for a while, get personal then be blocked, mark my words.



1) I do hope you mean in general and not specific towards anyone or anything!
2) Yeah, it's a sticky subject, but easily discussed.
3) I'm not too fond of popcorn, worked in a film theater for years (projectionist) and after a while 'popcorn' just didn't smell or taste right!


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## Indie12

Blindside said:


> MMA is a sport ruleset, the athletes competing under those rules use various martial arts to compete under that ruleset.



Agreed!


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## Indie12

Let me 'edit' this and ask then, what constitutes a Martial Art? What makes a Martial Art, a Martial Art? Or Mixed Martial Art, Mixed Martial Art?


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## Indie12

Cyriacus said:


> You dont.
> 
> MMA Gyms take parts of them, then piece them back together.
> For example, a common blend Ive seen is Kickboxing + Muay Thai + BJJ + Sport Tae Kwon Do. Sometimes with a couple of slivers of Freestyle in there.
> 
> You cannot completely combine complete Systems. Its literally impossible.
> 
> A Fighting System is a better term than Martial Arts System for MMA, since whilst it is of a Martial Art style, it isnt a Martial Art unto itself. Its other Martial Arts.



Agreed! It it virtually impossible to combine complete systems, although (for the record) I do know several MMA's who claim to have done so.

Are you referring to fighting system as in 'combat' or fighting system as in 'sport'?


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## Indie12

Tez3 said:


> To paraphrase Dr Higgins, 'By Jove he's got it!'. Exactly right!!!
> 
> On a side note, I've never known another style to be so much the focus of other styles trying to decide what it is!!



I've seen it, especially with newer systems 'popping up' nowdays. I've seen some of the older systems (mainly individual instructors, claiming to represent those systems) who have taken the 'newer systems' into question and deciding what is is and what it is not!


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## Indie12

Thesemindz said:


> I think the answer depends entirely on where and how it is taught* Agreed*. Depending on the school, "MMA" could be a training philosophy, a system of techniques, a specific sport education, whatever the instructor knows done in boxing shorts inside an octagon, pure marketing, or a traditional approach to learning a system of fighting in multiple ranges* Just for the record, I've never seen any form of Mixed Martial Arts with a philosophy attached*. What constitutes what is and isn't a martial art? These kind of distinctions are abritrary anyway. *In 1993 when the gracie family brought into the question which was the better Martial Art and therefore started UFC, was that abritary, in your opinino?* We're all learning violence, what we call it is more a matter of personal preference.* Agreed, but violence has several distinctions, such as violence in sport, violence in life or death combat or self defense, violence in behavior, psychological, neurological, etc.* MMA practitioners _may_ learn to fight if they a have a good instructor teaching quality material and they are diligent students. That's enough for me. But I also consider Western Boxing and Olympic Taekwondo martial arts. For me, "martial arts" means studying fighting. If they did that in an MMA school, they'd pass my standard.* I'd agree/disagree, from my own personal experience, I've witnessed several so called MMA Coaches or Instructors teach MMA, however none of their students could barely fight! Now was it the students or the Instructors talent? I dunno! If the material is quality high and the students are diligent, I could see how that may happen or occur.
> 
> I do personally consider 'boxing' and 'Tae Kwon Do' both Martial Arts, same as 'wrestling' and 'fencing'. I will however disagree to some extent with Olympic Tae Kwon Do, although it uses Tae Kwon Do Philosophy, and Other aspects of TKD training, the flashy kicks, acrobatic kicks, and spectator stunts, I don't consider 'Martial' and therefore I (in my own opinion) do not consider those techniques practical for Martial use. (I've been involved with Olympic style TKD- for over 23 years, on and off!) But again, that's my own opinion!
> *
> 
> 
> 
> -Rob




*In Bold*

I will add this, I believe (again in my own opinion) that in order for Martial Arts to be called Martial Arts, it needs to have three elements attached, the physical, mental (philosophy), and spiritual components. When you break down 'Martial Arts' you have literally translating into "The ART of Combat". Therefore Art, meaning some form of expression, or belief, with Martial being forms of military components, I.E. Combat.

Mixed Martial Arts (and I've rarely seen it) with the exception of a few fighting systems (combat systems) does not have in general any form of philosophy, or spiritual component. But then again, I haven't seen any sport MMA program or system with the other two elements attached!

Just my two cents:


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## Cyriacus

Indie12 said:


> Agreed! It it virtually impossible to combine complete systems, although (for the record) I do know several MMA's who claim to have done so.
> 
> Are you referring to fighting system as in 'combat' or fighting system as in 'sport'?


Irrelevant - Much like how TKD or Karate or Judo or JJ or any host of other stuff can be taught as Combative or Sport oriented, MMA can be focused on both and still be a Fighting System.

The distinction I make, is that I consider a Martial Art to be something designed to Remove ones Foe. Be it in Combat, or in Self Defense. 

I consider a Fighting System to be a collaborative means by which to Incapacitate ones Foe.
MMA, Self Defense Schools (Like, SD Classes, etc), and Freestyle (Not necessarily Freestyle Kickboxing or something. Just outright Freestyle) are examples of what I consider to be a Fighting System.

Fighting Systems are typically more Sport themed, but this is where it gets a bit tricky.
By definition, if Youre Teaching someone to Punch Straight, arguably, it could be considered Teaching them Martial Arts.

"*Martial arts* are extensive systems of codified practices and traditions of combat, practiced for a variety of reasons, including self-defense, competition, physical health and fitness, as well as mental and spiritual development.The term _martial art_ has become heavily associated with the fighting arts of eastern Asia, but was originally used in regard to the combat systems of Europe as early as the 1550s. An English fencing manual of 1639 used the term in reference specifically to the "Science and Art" of swordplay. The term is ultimately derived from Latin, martial arts being the "Arts of Mars," the Roman god of war.[SUP][1][/SUP]
Some martial arts are considered 'traditional' and tied to an ethnic, cultural or religious background, while others are modern systems developed either by a founder or an association."

And so on.
Hence why I feel the need to draw a distinction.
By definition, MMA is Martial Arts.
But I feel that while it is Martial Arts, it isnt a _Martial Art.

_I truly hope that makes sense.


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## Indie12

Cyriacus said:


> Irrelevant - Much like how TKD or Karate or Judo or JJ or any host of other stuff can be taught as Combative or Sport oriented, MMA can be focused on both and still be a Fighting System.* Agreed!*
> 
> The distinction I make, is that I consider a Martial Art to be something designed to Remove ones Foe. Be it in Combat, or in Self Defense.
> 
> I consider a Fighting System to be a collaborative means by which to Incapacitate ones Foe.* I agree/disagree. Since in combat or self defense, the object can either be simply to 'back off the opponent', disable, incapacitate, or kill.*
> MMA, Self Defense Schools (Like, SD Classes, etc), and Freestyle (Not necessarily Freestyle Kickboxing or something. Just outright Freestyle) are examples of what I consider to be a Fighting System.* I consider a fighting system, based on Martial Art-techniques, but no philosophical or spiritual attachments. *
> 
> Fighting Systems are typically more Sport themed, but this is where it gets a bit tricky.
> By definition, if Youre Teaching someone to Punch Straight, arguably, it could be considered Teaching them Martial Arts.
> 
> "Martial arts are extensive systems of codified practices and traditions of combat, practiced for a variety of reasons, including self-defense, competition, physical health and fitness, as well as mental and spiritual development.The term _martial art_ has become heavily associated with the fighting arts of eastern Asia, but was originally used in regard to the combat systems of Europe as early as the 1550s. An English fencing manual of 1639 used the term in reference specifically to the "Science and Art" of swordplay. The term is ultimately derived from Latin, martial arts being the "Arts of Mars," the Roman god of war.[SUP][1][/SUP]
> Some martial arts are considered 'traditional' and tied to an ethnic, cultural or religious background, while others are modern systems developed either by a founder or an association."
> 
> And so on.
> Hence why I feel the need to draw a distinction. *Well I agree, there's definitely a distinction between the two. I would also add (in my own view) that sport fighting systems and combat fighting systems, do vary since they have different approches, one is for sport, and the other for sd or combat. On the other hand, you could say they use the same based techniques and therefore equally match. (I'm just saying)*
> By definition, MMA is Martial Arts.
> But I feel that while it is Martial Arts, it isnt a _Martial Art.
> 
> _*I agree! By that specific definition MMA is MA. But I would also add that while MMA may be based in MA techniques, the philosophical, and spiritual aspects of Martial Arts (although vary) are not in general apart of MMA. Therefore making MMA not a 'Martial Art' (But again, just my two cents. ) *I truly hope that makes sense.



Good point!


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## Cyriacus

Indie12 said:


> Good point!


Yeah, Incapacitate wasnt a good word. But Eliminate sounded too rushingly Violent.


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## Indie12

Cyriacus said:


> Yeah, Incapacitate wasnt a good word. But Eliminate sounded too rushingly Violent.



Yeah well, I'm not sure if "kill" is any better!


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## Tez3

Indie12 said:


> 1) I do hope you mean in general and not specific towards anyone or anything!
> 2) Yeah, it's a sticky subject, but easily discussed.
> 3) I'm not too fond of popcorn, worked in a film theater for years (projectionist) and after a while 'popcorn' just didn't smell or taste right!



I do mean it in general but MMA seems to be the only style/system that non MMA people seem to think they are experts on and can discuss with knowledge they don't actually have. Watching the UFC doesn't give you the expertise even if you practice a martial art, to discuss MMA knowledgeably. So many people say you can't learn a martial art from a video yet so many people also think they can learn what MMA is all about from watching fights on television.

It's not easily discussed I'm afraid, you will find that people when they want to portray stupid or thuggish in the martial arts point to MMAers. One person has already said that brawling is part of MMA, it's not but hey everyone and their uncle seem to think they know what MMA is, why bother listening to what MMAers think.


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## Cyriacus

Tez3 said:


> I do mean it in general but MMA seems to be the only style/system that non MMA people seem to think they are experts on and can discuss with knowledge they don't actually have. Watching the UFC doesn't give you the expertise even if you practice a martial art, to discuss MMA knowledgeably. So many people say you can't learn a martial art from a video yet so many people also think they can learn what MMA is all about from watching fights on television.
> 
> It's not easily discussed I'm afraid, you will find that people when they want to portray stupid or thuggish in the martial arts point to MMAers. One person has already said that brawling is part of MMA, it's not but hey everyone and their uncle seem to think they know what MMA is, why bother listening to what MMAers think.


Throw in Wrestling.
I remember in School, that alot of folks thought that after watching WWE for a night, They could Suplex each other


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## Indie12

Tez3 said:


> I do mean it in general but MMA seems to be the only style/system that non MMA people seem to think they are experts on and can discuss with knowledge they don't actually have. Watching the UFC doesn't give you the expertise even if you practice a martial art, to discuss MMA knowledgeably. So many people say you can't learn a martial art from a video yet so many people also think they can learn what MMA is all about from watching fights on television.* Agreed! Actually in #1, I was referring to something else, but thanks for claring that up!!
> I will add that sadly, (I personally know a few) there are many MMAists who believe they know just by watching or attending a once a week 1 hour class in MMA.*
> 
> It's not easily discussed I'm afraid, you will find that people when they want to portray stupid or thuggish in the martial arts point to MMAers. One person has already said that brawling is part of MMA, it's not but hey everyone and their uncle seem to think they know what MMA is, why bother listening to what MMAers think.* Agreed! This is a complex issue. Although, I will add that sometimes listening to MMAers viewpoints is "entertaining!" *


----------



## Indie12

Cyriacus said:


> Throw in Wrestling.
> I remember in School, that alot of folks thought that after watching WWE for a night, They could Suplex each other



We had a so called 'boxing club' at my school. Alot of guys with no formal training would duke it out during lunches and breaks. They thought they could "Rocky" eachother until the bell rung! Amazingly no one ever got seriously injured, although we did have quite a few bloody noses!


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## Cyriacus

Indie12 said:


> We had a so called 'boxing club' at my school. Alot of guys with no formal training would duke it out during lunches and breaks. They thought they could "Rocky" eachother until the bell rung! Amazingly no one ever got seriously injured, although we did have quite a few bloody noses!


Hehe. School Boxing Programs tend to be mostly for Fitness, by means of Punching.
If Theyre not Teaching You how to beat Your Opponent, and only how to throw Punches at each other properly, it aint Boxing


----------



## Indie12

Cyriacus said:


> Hehe. School Boxing Programs tend to be mostly for Fitness, by means of Punching.
> If Theyre not Teaching You how to beat Your Opponent, and only how to throw Punches at each other properly, it aint Boxing



That's just kind of the ironic thing, my school didn't have a sanction or "supervised" boxing club of any recognition. It was basically a bunch of high school guys getting together (illegally I might add, at least with the school) with 90% of them having no 'formal training' what-so-ever. And then punching eachother with boxing gloves until the other dude KO'd or there was a draw!

Ironically, as a result of this "illegal gathering" the city actually came in, and made it an actual city law "there wasn't one prior" that no boxing, martial arts, brawling, or street fighting, could take place on city property. (Which is where we had these so called "fights")

Myself and a few other local Martial Artists, Boxing Coaches (litigimate ones) and a few others tried unsuccessfully to defeat the new law proposal but obviously we lost. It's now a civil infraction with a $300 fine!


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## Cyriacus

Indie12 said:


> That's just kind of the ironic thing, my school didn't have a sanction or "supervised" boxing club of any recognition. It was basically a bunch of high school guys getting together (illegally I might add, at least with the school) with 90% of them having no 'formal training' what-so-ever. And then punching eachother with boxing gloves until the other dude KO'd or there was a draw!
> 
> Ironically, as a result of this "illegal gathering" the city actually came in, and made it an actual city law "there wasn't one prior" that no boxing, martial arts, brawling, or street fighting, could take place on city property. (Which is where we had these so called "fights")
> 
> Myself and a few other local Martial Artists, Boxing Coaches (litigimate ones) and a few others tried unsuccessfully to defeat the new law proposal but obviously we lost. It's now a civil infraction with a $300 fine!


LOL - So, basically they called ineffectively Punching each other Boxing, and tried to make something out of it? Hehe.


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## Indie12

Cyriacus said:


> LOL - So, basically they called ineffectively Punching each other Boxing, and tried to make something out of it? Hehe.



Basically, It was punching each other using 'boxing' gloves!! Nothing ever came from it!


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## Tez3

Indie12 said:


>



It would be easier if you didn't put your answers in the same box as I've written in...you see what happens when I try to quote you.

I'm so glad that you find MMAers points of view 'entertaining', I'm sure we are gratified by your laughter. Personally I don't know any person who practices MMA who thinks they know just by watching it on television, the people I know, and I can say this without boasting...that I know just about everyone in the UK who does MMA... they don't for one minute believe they know that much, they believe there's always more to learn, more to discover.

I have no idea btw what you mean about you referring to something else and I haven't cleared anything up at all, I just stated my opinion on something. Your posts seem to confuse things more than clear anything up?


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## Cyriacus

Tez3 said:


> It would be easier if you didn't put your answers in the same box as I've written in...you see what happens when I try to quote you.
> 
> I'm so glad that you find MMAers points of view 'entertaining', I'm sure we are gratified by your laughter. Personally I don't know any person who practices MMA who thinks they know just by watching it on television, the people I know, and I can say this without boasting...that I know just about everyone in the UK who does MMA... they don't for one minute believe they know that much, they believe there's always more to learn, more to discover.
> 
> I have no idea btw what you mean about you referring to something else and I haven't cleared anything up at all, I just stated my opinion on something. Your posts seem to confuse things more than clear anything up?


Personally, most MMA Practitioners I know of work the way Youre stating.
Ive seen a couple of exceptions, but theres always bound to be one or two guys who think theyre harder than they are. It comes with the territory.


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## Tez3

Cyriacus said:


> Personally, most MMA Practitioners I know of work the way Youre stating.
> Ive seen a couple of exceptions, but theres always bound to be one or two guys who think theyre harder than they are. It comes with the territory.




The laws of human nature say there's always at least one idiot anywhere lol.

Boxing here has long been seen as something to be encouraged especially for the more 'boisterious'. The police started running boxing clubs in the poor areas where youngsters were more liable to fall into crime. There are still many police run boxing clubs around the country, they do teach boxing not just 'punching', they belong to the ABA so can compete as well as train. Youth clubs often have boxing clubs attached and are supported by local councils.


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## Cyriacus

Tez3 said:


> The laws of human nature say there's always at least one idiot anywhere lol.
> 
> Boxing here has long been seen as something to be encouraged especially for the more 'boisterious'. The police started running boxing clubs in the poor areas where youngsters were more liable to fall into crime. There are still many police run boxing clubs around the country, they do teach boxing not just 'punching', they belong to the ABA so can compete as well as train. Youth clubs often have boxing clubs attached and are supported by local councils.


Much like here - Where I live, the Police Boxing Clubs are actually better than regular Boxing Gyms.


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## Buka

It's easy to teach the willing how to be a fighter. It's not so easy to teach someone how to be a Martial Artist. To me, Martial Arts are about rectitude, discipline and respect. There are certain protocols, history and life skills that are taught and practiced. Don't get me wrong, I love a good fighting gym, I just like dojos better.

I love MMA, and I really like this thread.


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## Tez3

Buka said:


> It's easy to teach the willing how to be a fighter. It's not so easy to teach someone how to be a Martial Artist. To me, Martial Arts are about rectitude, discipline and respect. There are certain protocols, history and life skills that are taught and practiced. Don't get me wrong, I love a good fighting gym, I just like dojos better.
> 
> I love MMA, and I really like this thread.



So what about where I train? We do MMA and TMA and we are a dojo. Many places here are. One needs to be highly disciplined to train and fight MMA, it's not for slobs. There is a huge amount of respect both for the people we train with and between the fighters. To say there's not would be wrong. To be able to fight successfully one needs to be everything people claim martial artists to be.


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## ETinCYQX

I'd consider MMA a combat sport. Just like kickboxing or boxing or even wtf sport tkd. One trains in the sport very much like they'd train in a martial art


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## Steve

ETinCYQX said:


> I'd consider MMA a combat sport. Just like kickboxing or boxing or even wtf sport tkd. One trains in the sport very much like they'd train in a martial art


Pretty much.  Whatever label you want to use, MMA is in the same category as TKD, Muay Thai, San Shou, Fencing, Boxing, Judo or Savate.  If you consider any of these a martial art, then MMA is a martial art.  If you call them combat sports, then MMA is a combat sport. There is nothing to distinguish any of these from any of the others.


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## ETinCYQX

There was actually an argument on Sherdog for a bit about whether it should be called "Mixed martial arts" or "Mixed combat sports". interesting debate.

I also find the idea that BJJ isn't a TMA interesting, since by all accounts it's older than TaeKwonDo, at least in its modern form. Helio was fighting Kimura ten+ years before anyone used the term TaeKwonDo


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## Steve

ETinCYQX said:


> There was actually an argument on Sherdog for a bit about whether it should be called "Mixed martial arts" or "Mixed combat sports". interesting debate.
> 
> I also find the idea that BJJ isn't a TMA interesting, since by all accounts it's older than TaeKwonDo, at least in its modern form. Helio was fighting Kimura ten+ years before anyone used the term TaeKwonDo


True, and it's as old or older than most of the modern iterations of Karate, too.  We're really just having a giant discussion about semantics.  What does "combat sport" mean to you?  How do you define "martial arts?"  It's a little different, and no one's really wrong.

The only time I really disagree is when one person's standards are fluid.  Where TKD and Judo are "martial arts" but BJJ isn't.  Or where Judo, BJJ and Sambo are but CACC or other folk styles of wrestling are not.  Or where Boxing is but MMA is not.  Truthfully, it doesn't matter what labels you prefer to use.  If they're useful and constructive for you, great, as long as you're consistent.  If you're not, it makes it very difficult to communicate, particularly in writing.


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## Buka

Tez3 said:


> So what about where I train? We do MMA and TMA and we are a dojo. Many places here are. One needs to be highly disciplined to train and fight MMA, it's not for slobs. There is a huge amount of respect both for the people we train with and between the fighters. To say there's not would be wrong. To be able to fight successfully one needs to be everything people claim martial artists to be.



Where you train - now, that's the way it's supposed to be!

I've found some MMA gyms that don't teach anything other than fighting. I find that a shame.


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## Steve

Buka said:


> Where you train - now, that's the way it's supposed to be!
> 
> I've found some MMA gyms that don't teach anything other than fighting. I find that a shame.



What gyms are those?  And how do you  know what they teach?  Just curious.


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## Tez3

Buka said:


> Where you train - now, that's the way it's supposed to be!
> 
> I've found some MMA gyms that don't teach anything other than fighting. I find that a shame.



I have to ask as well, why is that a shame? What is martial arts if not fighting? You can wrap it up in fancy words, use nice posters with self righteous mottos on but martial arts is still fighting, if it's not, it's not martial arts is it? What are punches and kicks for if not to hurt someone? if you are doing kicks and punches for 'self enlightenment' or 'inner peace' I'd suggest you are foing something wrong.
Go into an MMA gym/club and you will find discipline, respect and good sportsmanship as well as fitness taken seriously. You wil find self confidence and self esteem being built, attention to rules and details is also learnt. Just because they don't bow (they will shake hands or hug instead) and pretend what they are doing is something akin to a religion doesn't mean they are lesser human beings than those who take a traditional view of things or perhaps the MMAers are the traditional martial artists and those who think they aren't are living out some pseudo Eastern way of martial arts that Westerners have dreamed up as being what was done in Japan etc.


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## Steve

Tez3 said:


> I have to ask as well, why is that a shame? What is martial arts if not fighting? You can wrap it up in fancy words, use nice posters with self righteous mottos on but martial arts is still fighting, if it's not, it's not martial arts is it? What are punches and kicks for if not to hurt someone? if you are doing kicks and punches for 'self enlightenment' or 'inner peace' I'd suggest you are foing something wrong.
> Go into an MMA gym/club and you will find discipline, respect and good sportsmanship as well as fitness taken seriously. You wil find self confidence and self esteem being built, attention to rules and details is also learnt. Just because they don't bow (they will shake hands or hug instead) and pretend what they are doing is something akin to a religion doesn't mean they are lesser human beings than those who take a traditional view of things or perhaps the MMAers are the traditional martial artists and those who think they aren't are living out some pseudo Eastern way of martial arts that Westerners have dreamed up as being what was done in Japan etc.



This.  great post.


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## Cyriacus

Im inclined to concur up to a point, for now.
I did say from the start that definitively, MMA is Martial Arts.
I was mainly questioning whether it itself was a Martial Art.

For now, I cant say I wholly accept it, but I am inclined to let it slip into that category for now, unless I think of a reason not to.


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## Tez3

MMA is what it says it is...mixed...martial...arts.


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## thegatekeeper

MMA just means Mixed Martial Arts lol


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## Tez3

I wouldn't post on the TKD forum 'Is TKD a martial art' or on the Judo 'Is Judo a martial art' nor would I post up that none of these would 'work in a real fight' so why does MMA get all the flak? We get stuff about it not being any good for 'the street', that it's not a martial art, it's proponants aren't 'real' martial artists because they don't train in a dojo so why all the grief for MMA? If you don't like it...don't train it, don't watch the competitions and please don't think you are an expert on it just because of what you see on one companies promotion just because it's on the television.


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## Gnarlie

In my view, a movement is a movement.  It doesn't have to belong to a specific set of other movements with a special name to make it valid.  If I poke someone in the eye, and it hurts, then it's valid.  Is that TKD? MMA? Kung Fu?  Is it even martial arts? If I spit in someone's face to distract them, is that a martial arts technique?  What about an armbar?  I don't really care, as long as it works for the purpose!


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## ETinCYQX

Buka said:


> Where you train - now, that's the way it's supposed to be!
> 
> I've found some MMA gyms that don't teach anything other than fighting. I find that a shame.



They teach the sport of mixed martial arts which is what they're supposed to teach. What else would you like them to teach?


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## Indie12

Tez3 said:


> It would be easier if you didn't put your answers in the same box as I've written in...you see what happens when I try to quote you.
> 
> I'm so glad that you find MMAers points of view 'entertaining', I'm sure we are gratified by your laughter. Personally I don't know any person who practices MMA who thinks they know just by watching it on television, the people I know, and I can say this without boasting...that I know just about everyone in the UK who does MMA... they don't for one minute believe they know that much, they believe there's always more to learn, more to discover.
> 
> I have no idea btw what you mean about you referring to something else and I haven't cleared anything up at all, I just stated my opinion on something. Your posts seem to confuse things more than clear anything up?



Possible difference between UK and USA mentality? 
At least in my area, that seems to be the mentality of all of the MMAers! 

And yes, I do find most of the people I encounter who are MMAests points of view 'entertaining'. By that meant the attitude approach of "if I watch this, do this, then I know this" referring to techniques of MMA. Or my favorite, "I read it in a magazine or book, therefore I know it."

I was referring to something else that happened in another forum, by that, I meant I was referring to "I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or actually stating an opinion." Didnt' mean to confuse! And you actually cleared that up in the response you posted! Hope that cleared it up! 

Glad your gratified by my amusment of that mentality!!


----------



## Indie12

Tez3 said:


> I wouldn't post on the TKD forum 'Is TKD a martial art' or on the Judo 'Is Judo a martial art' nor would I post up that none of these would 'work in a real fight' so why does MMA get all the flak? We get stuff about it not being any good for 'the street', that it's not a martial art, it's proponants aren't 'real' martial artists because they don't train in a dojo so why all the grief for MMA? If you don't like it...don't train it, don't watch the competitions and please don't think you are an expert on it just because of what you see on one companies promotion just because it's on the television.



I agree to a point! However, just for the record: I have seen those very questions posted on various TKD, Judo, Karate, and Jiu-jitsu on other Martial Art discussion forums.
Usually you actually get some pretty interested comments and opinions.


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## Tez3

Indie12 said:


> I agree to a point! However, just for the record: *I have seen those very questions posted on various TKD, Judo, Karate, and Jiu-jitsu on other Martial Art discussion forums*.
> Usually you actually get some pretty interested comments and opinions.




Yes but I bet they are posted by the people who practice those styles rather than what happens in MMA when non practicioners post up about MMA.

I wouldn't knock btw the ability of MMA people to watch a move being done and then know how to do it. MMA people do tend to have a solid background in martial arts and you will find Judo people for example able to work out BJJ moves simply by watching and vice versa. TKD people can watch karate and know how it's done, Often something is similiar enough to a technique they already know for them to be able to do it. I wouldn't be so quick to denigrate them. I doubt very much it's a cultural difference more one of not understanding MMA. A BJJer can watch wrestling and understand what is being done then do it, I'm sure a wrestler can watch BJJ and do the same. And yes you can see a movem in a magazine, a specialist MMA magazine which lays out how to do a move. I think you will find that MMA people have more skills than being able to grunt which is how you seem to think they are. And yes my 'amusement' was sarcastic.


----------



## Indie12

Tez3 said:


> Yes but I bet they are posted by the people who practice those styles rather than what happens in MMA when non practicioners post up about MMA.
> 
> I wouldn't knock btw the ability of MMA people to watch a move being done and then know how to do it. MMA people do tend to have a solid background in martial arts and you will find Judo people for example able to work out BJJ moves simply by watching and vice versa. TKD people can watch karate and know how it's done, Often something is similiar enough to a technique they already know for them to be able to do it. I wouldn't be so quick to denigrate them. I doubt very much it's a cultural difference more one of not understanding MMA. A BJJer can watch wrestling and understand what is being done then do it, I'm sure a wrestler can watch BJJ and do the same. And yes you can see a movem in a magazine, a specialist MMA magazine which lays out how to do a move. I think you will find that MMA people have more skills than being able to grunt which is how you seem to think they are. And yes my 'amusement' was sarcastic.




Well I've seen most of these forums and posts, which is why I can disagree! The conversation always seems to pit system against system, and then always refers to some example of MMA. Although, often it makes for an interesting discussion on what exactly constitutes a "Martial Art" no matter which system is being discussed.

For the record: I have done MMA, in fact I did it for two years. So, my views on it is because of my experience training in it and with other MMAers. True, many MMAers do have a solid background in some other Martial Art, again it varies onto what 'type' of MMA your doing, are you doing it for UFC or Cage Fighting? (Which is what a majority of people in the USA- at least, tend to do it for) Or are you doing it through application of combat or self defense? MMAers for a majority do it for Sport, which is the issue I have. But then again, I personally am not fond of Sport Martial Arts! (again my personal opinion). 

Now I'm not saying a move cannot be learned simply by observing, in fact many stuff can be learned by simple observation or reading! I didn't really meant it as a cultural difference, I meant it as a geographic difference, meaning perhaps it's just different approches on learning MMA, either by attempting to "watch" it via TV, or as you mention "more to learn, more to discover." At least from my geographic area, that seems to be the 'approach' which is "I see TV UFC, I learn TV UFC, I know everything about UFC via TV"!!

I guess the question should've been "What constitutes a Martial Art"? In other words, what makes a Martial Art, 'A Martial Art"?

LOL. Yes, I figured you were being sarcastic, but it took a little while to figure that out!


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## Carol

Why the issue with MMA folks doing what they do for sport?  MMA is a ruleset, as Blindside emphasized.


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## Tez3

MMA is for fighting in competitions, that's it's purpose. It's not been put together for any other reason. It's not for self defence, or looking pretty, it's, as has been said, a ruleset for competitions. If the majority are training for sport then the majority are correct, the minority aren't, they may be having fun or whatever but it's not MMA.
I've been training, reffing, cornering coaching MMA for 12 years now and no one I speak to has any doubt what MMA is for...competition. TMA people do MMA for sport, MMA people do it for sport because...wait for it...MMA is for sport.


----------



## Steve

Indie12 said:


> Possible difference between UK and USA mentality?
> At least in my area, that seems to be the mentality of all of the MMAers!
> 
> And yes, I do find most of the people I encounter who are MMAests points of view 'entertaining'. By that meant the attitude approach of "if I watch this, do this, then I know this" referring to techniques of MMA. Or my favorite, "I read it in a magazine or book, therefore I know it."
> 
> I was referring to something else that happened in another forum, by that, I meant I was referring to "I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or actually stating an opinion." Didnt' mean to confuse! And you actually cleared that up in the response you posted! Hope that cleared it up!
> 
> Glad your gratified by my amusment of that mentality!!


Once again, this sounds very suspicious, and not based on actual, firsthand knowledge.  It sounds like you're projecting your impressions of mma fans to the martial artists who train.  I'd recommend taking your own advice.  Watch less.  Do more.   Go find a good gym and train.  Everything tez has said about mma also applies in the USA.  I think it would be eye opening.  



Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


----------



## Buka

Tez3 said:


> I have to ask as well, why is that a shame? What is martial arts if not fighting? You can wrap it up in fancy words, use nice posters with self righteous mottos on but martial arts is still fighting, if it's not, it's not martial arts is it? What are punches and kicks for if not to hurt someone? if you are doing kicks and punches for 'self enlightenment' or 'inner peace' I'd suggest you are foing something wrong.
> Go into an MMA gym/club and you will find discipline, respect and good sportsmanship as well as fitness taken seriously. You wil find self confidence and self esteem being built, attention to rules and details is also learnt. Just because they don't bow (they will shake hands or hug instead) and pretend what they are doing is something akin to a religion doesn't mean they are lesser human beings than those who take a traditional view of things or perhaps the MMAers are the traditional martial artists and those who think they aren't are living out some pseudo Eastern way of martial arts that Westerners have dreamed up as being what was done in Japan etc.



Martial Arts are a lot more than just fighting. If one is training just for sport, that's fine. But if competition isn't the goal of training, it's a different story. Or least it should be. Maybe "self defense" is the goal. But while a great bonus to training it's not really a practical reason. How often do any of us get into fights? Certainly not often enough to spend untold hours on the dojo floor, week after week, year after year.

But the better, more realistic the fight training is, the more reason it has to be tempered with character development. And to me, the development of character is the primary goal in the teaching Martial Arts. Many of the schools I've trained and taught in were in poorer neighborhoods. The majority of the students were young men. A lot of them were/are from one parent families. They are often exposed to drugs, crime and violence in the circles they travel. To give some young men hard core fighting skills - and NOT teach them self respect, social responsibility and discipline -  is a damn sham. At least to me.

You say "self enlightenment" and "inner peace" like they are dirty words.  I wholeheartedly disagree. They are just another part of training, just like an uppercut and a neck crank.


----------



## Tez3

Buka said:


> Martial Arts are a lot more than just fighting. If one is training just for sport, that's fine. But if competition isn't the goal of training, it's a different story. Or least it should be. Maybe "self defense" is the goal. But while a great bonus to training it's not really a practical reason. How often do any of us get into fights? Certainly not often enough to spend untold hours on the dojo floor, week after week, year after year.
> 
> But the better, more realistic the fight training is, the more reason it has to be tempered with character development. And to me, the development of character is the primary goal in the teaching Martial Arts. Many of the schools I've trained and taught in were in poorer neighborhoods. The majority of the students were young men. A lot of them were/are from one parent families. They are often exposed to drugs, crime and violence in the circles they travel. To give some young men hard core fighting skills - and NOT teach them self respect, social responsibility and discipline - is a damn sham. At least to me.
> 
> _You say "self enlightenment" and "inner peace" like they are dirty words. I wholeheartedly disagree. They are just another part of training, just like an uppercut and a neck crank_.



No, in many cases they are another way to make money by promoting an 'all in package'.

You are assuming that teaching fighting doesn't teach anything else but I can assure you it does. We have several teenage boys who have been brought to us to learn MMA, they learn far more than fighting. They do learn self discipline, you cannot become a fighter without it, they learn respect because there's always someone better than them, they learn to respect their training partners and their instructors and from there other people, they use their energies to train, their anger and feelings of displacement dissipate as they find in MMA something that calms them and gives them a purpose. 
You think that going on about respect and lectoring them will do it? It's won't, seeing it in practice makes it work.

You talk about the young men who are already involved in violence and drugs, do you honestly think they don't know how to fight already, do you really think their going to an MMA gym actually means they trun form nice little boys into monsters, I hardly think so. Blaming MMA for a problem that already exists is foolhardy. There's no skills in MMA that this type of lad doesn't already have. And you know they aren't going to go to any place that wears a Gi or is 'traditional'.

MMA is for competitions, if people want to learn to fight dirty and aggressively on the street an MMA gym is the last place they will look to so please don't dump onto us the problems these young people have. 

Do you think then that the original purpose of martial arts was to 'train' character or was it for what most believe civilian self defence, (some believe military fighting) but I don't believe it was ever for training a persons character, that's a western thing that has been plonked into martial arts. In Eastern philosophies everything is intertwined not lik e the west where everything is compartmentalised.


----------



## Buka

Tez3 said:


> No, in many cases they are another way to make money by promoting an 'all in package'.
> 
> You are assuming that teaching fighting doesn't teach anything else but I can assure you it does. We have several teenage boys who have been brought to us to learn MMA, they learn far more than fighting. They do learn self discipline, you cannot become a fighter without it, they learn respect because there's always someone better than them, they learn to respect their training partners and their instructors and from there other people, they use their energies to train, their anger and feelings of displacement dissipate as they find in MMA something that calms them and gives them a purpose.
> You think that going on about respect and lectoring them will do it? It's won't, seeing it in practice makes it work.
> 
> You talk about the young men who are already involved in violence and drugs, do you honestly think they don't know how to fight already, do you really think their going to an MMA gym actually means they trun form nice little boys into monsters, I hardly think so. Blaming MMA for a problem that already exists is foolhardy. There's no skills in MMA that this type of lad doesn't already have. And you know they aren't going to go to any place that wears a Gi or is 'traditional'.
> 
> MMA is for competitions, if people want to learn to fight dirty and aggressively on the street an MMA gym is the last place they will look to so please don't dump onto us the problems these young people have.
> 
> Do you think then that the original purpose of martial arts was to 'train' character or was it for what most believe civilian self defence, (some believe military fighting) but I don't believe it was ever for training a persons character, that's a western thing that has been plonked into martial arts. In Eastern philosophies everything is intertwined not lik e the west where everything is compartmentalised.



I think we're agreeing without meaning to do so. 

As for the "another way to make money with an all in package", I believe you are correct in some cases. I've been teaching for a long time but haven't made much money, but I know of many who have, some diservedly, some not.

As for the respect because "there's always somebody better than them" that's not respect, that's common sense among young men. The real respect comes with there being somebody who's NOT better than them. But I understand your point.

You are incorrect about me thinking that "You think that going on about respect and lectoring them will do it". No, I don't lecture, preach or pontificate. I lead by example, as do all the higher ranks in our dojos. So, yes, you are correct that "seeing it in practice makes it work."

You asked if I thought the kids that were already into violence and drugs knew how to fight already. No. Not even close. They might know how to ambush or beat a helpless fool, but they don't know squat about fighting.

If it's a western thing to "train character", good, I'll take full credit for it.(thanks for pointing that out)


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## Tez3

Buka said:


> I think we're agreeing without meaning to do so.
> 
> As for the "another way to make money with an all in package", I believe you are correct in some cases. I've been teaching for a long time but haven't made much money, but I know of many who have, some diservedly, some not.
> 
> As for the respect because "there's always somebody better than them" that's not respect, that's common sense among young men. The real respect comes with there being somebody who's NOT better than them. But I understand your point.
> 
> You are incorrect about me thinking that "You think that going on about respect and lectoring them will do it". No, I don't lecture, preach or pontificate. I lead by example, as do all the higher ranks in our dojos. So, yes, you are correct that "seeing it in practice makes it work."
> 
> You asked if I thought the kids that were already into violence and drugs knew how to fight already. No. Not even close. They might know how to ambush or beat a helpless fool, but they don't know squat about fighting.
> 
> If it's a western thing to "train character", good, I'll take full credit for it.(thanks for pointing that out)



It's not a good thing that in the Western world martial arts is used to 'train character', it should be coming from society as whole, everything is compartmentalised, there's religions, school, homelife, work life, sports, hobbies etc and they are all separate where they should all flow into each other. If you have a belief system it should be with you all the time in everything you do. Teaching discipline and respect isn't a martial arts 'thing', in Asia this starts in the home, carries on at school and throughout society so it does permeate martial arts but it's part of the whole not the whole itself which is what it is in the Western world. 

I've seen plenty of kids who are into gangs and violence etc fight, of course they can fight, to think otherwise is to mislead people who are training for self defence. 

I'm sure you do lead by example but the fact is you are preaching to the choir. You misunderstand what I meant by there always being someone better than you, but I think you have a downer on MMA so I'm probably wasting my time explaining.


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## Tez3

A relevant discussion on 'untrained fighters'.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?100431-Do-quot-untrained-quot-assailents-exist


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## Buka

Tez3 said:


> It's not a good thing that in the Western world martial arts is used to 'train character', it should be coming from society as whole, everything is compartmentalised, there's religions, school, homelife, work life, sports, hobbies etc and they are all separate where they should all flow into each other. If you have a belief system it should be with you all the time in everything you do. Teaching discipline and respect isn't a martial arts 'thing', in Asia this starts in the home, carries on at school and throughout society so it does permeate martial arts but it's part of the whole not the whole itself which is what it is in the Western world.
> 
> I've seen plenty of kids who are into gangs and violence etc fight, of course they can fight, to think otherwise is to mislead people who are training for self defence.
> 
> I'm sure you do lead by example but the fact is you are preaching to the choir. You misunderstand what I meant by there always being someone better than you, but I think you have a downer on MMA so I'm probably wasting my time explaining.



Actually, no, I don't have a downer on MMA. It's my favorite part of martial arts. 

I don't think it's ever a waste of time explaining your views, Tez, I happen to like hearing them.


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## BostonRedBaron

The MMA course at my school is taught as the transition between systems. i.e. techniques to go from a striking system to grappling system and back again.  As for whether the subset of techniques to transition between systems can be a system in itself is an interesting debate.  The technique to transition between say Muay Thai plum clinch and BJJ might be different than going from say Western Boxing dirty boxing clinch to BJJ.  So it is dependent on the 2 systems you are transitioning to/from.  At least, that is how it is taught at my school.

As for the MMA is just a sport argument, well the Dog Brothers have incorporated traditional Filipino Knife/Stick Techniques into BJJ, Thai, Wrestling, Western boxing etc.  And what they train for is absolutely NOT sport, but it is a mix of martial arts.  Actually, Dog Brothers knife/stick system is a mix of Krabi Krabong, Filipino and Silat.  
So why does or doesn't that make what they do MMA and also a martial art?


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## Tez3

BostonRedBaron said:


> The MMA course at my school is taught as the transition between systems. i.e. techniques to go from a striking system to grappling system and back again. As for whether the subset of techniques to transition between systems can be a system in itself is an interesting debate. The technique to transition between say Muay Thai plum clinch and BJJ might be different than going from say Western Boxing dirty boxing clinch to BJJ. So it is dependent on the 2 systems you are transitioning to/from. At least, that is how it is taught at my school.
> 
> As for the MMA is just a sport argument, well the Dog Brothers have incorporated traditional Filipino Knife/Stick Techniques into BJJ, Thai, Wrestling, Western boxing etc. And what they train for is absolutely NOT sport, but it is a mix of martial arts. Actually, Dog Brothers knife/stick system is a mix of Krabi Krabong, Filipino and Silat.
> So why does or doesn't that make what they do MMA and also a martial art?




MMA is for sport, it's a competitive style specifically for competition. We'd call what you and the Dog brothers are doing cross training not MMA.


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## Chris Parker

Yep, or a hybrid system, or an eclectic system. Not MMA.

To go back to the initial question, MMA is a number of different things. It is a ruleset and competitive format. It is a training approach and methodology geared towards success in such a format. And, yes, it is absolutely a distinct martial art in and of itself, same as other sporting-based martial arts. It just depends on how the term is being used. MMA competition is the format and ruleset, as well as the promotions, and MMA training and combative approach is the martial art.


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