# Armbar ends in Stabbing



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 1, 2015)

A friend of mine shared a link to a video on Facebook recently.  I cannot find the video anywhere else, so I am including the link on FB.  I hope you'll be able to access it.  However, warning; there is graphic violence in it, and it appears to be authentic.  So use caution, NSFW, keep kids away, etc.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=907528315959220
			




In the video, it appears that someone is taking amateur cellphone footage of two men confronting each other in a parking garage.  The man who appears to be the aggressor is larger and well-muscled; he tears his shirt off and hurls it in the other man's face.  The other man has his hands up and appears to be trying to avoid a confrontation.

They begin to fight and it becomes clear that the smaller man has some grappling training.  He takes the larger man down quickly and applies an armbar technique.  Although the larger man is clearly in pain, he uses his free arm to reach into his pants pocket and retrieve a very large hunting-style knife, which he then plunges multiple times into the upper right chest area of the man who is applying the armbar.  From the blood and the reaction, the stab wounds, if not fatal, were at the very least life-threatening.  The fight ends as the larger man gets to his feet, curses the now-collapsed smaller man, and departs.

I do not have context, nor do I know if this video is legitimate or not; but it appears real to me.  Nor am I suggesting that it is 'proof' or even a good argument about the effectiveness of any particular style of martial arts.  So please don't go there!

I do not know if it's been posted here before, but I did a search and did not find reference to it.  So if this has been shown before, my apologies.


----------



## DaveB (Dec 1, 2015)

What I found most interesting was the comments. 

Good post.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Dec 1, 2015)

Some random thoughts ...

1) Partially due to the quality of the recording, I can't tell if this is real or staged. I suspect it might be staged, but without tracking down the origin of the video I can't say for sure.

2) The grappler executes the takedown and immediately falls back to the armbar attempt. I teach my students a) in a self-defense situation to always evaluate the situation before going to the ground and b) always fully control the position before attempting the armbar.

3) The armbar was not applied correctly. The grappler had plenty of time to break the arm before the big guy drew the knife. It didn't even look like he was trying to get the break. I can't tell whether this is because he didn't know how to apply it properly or because his technique fell apart under stress or because it was staged and he didn't want to actually injure the guy he was working with.

4) The control position for the armbar was not locked in properly. If it had been, the big guy would not have been able to turn towards the grappler and stab the belly. He would have had to settle for stabbing the legs. Failure to establish that control position is a very common error for beginning students and even intermediate students can screw that up when they get too excited.

5) Knowing how to react if an opponent pulls out a knife in the middle of grappling is a difficult but worthwhile skill that is generally neglected. In the video the grappler completely fails to respond and just keeps holding on to the arm that he has already failed to break, even after he has totally lost the position. Even if the opponent didn't have a knife, this would have been a losing proposition. (I do see beginners getting locked into this sort of paralysis because they don't know what to do when the armbar fails.) With a knife added to the equation it becomes a fatal mistake. (Assuming the video isn't staged, which I'm not yet convinced of.)

6) If the video is staged, it is still a useful illustration of how things can go wrong in various ways.


----------



## geezer (Dec 1, 2015)

I'm with Tony on this one. It looks staged to me. Since, I don't do ju-jutsu  I'm not qualified to comment further, but If I were the guy in the arm-bar, I'd just tap out and apologize, and shake the other guy's hand. _Then_ if I were an evil S.O.B., I could stab him without having my arm broken! If the tap-thing didn't work I guess I'd just have to stab the legs like Tony suggested.

...Somehow stabbing a guy's legs and getting your arm busted doesn't seem like a win-win situation.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 1, 2015)

If your arm isn't already broken, stabbing him in the leg - especially high up in the thigh, where you can try for the femoral artery, or the popliteal artery behind the knee - will quite likely convince him to turn loose.
And if (as in the video) the armbar is improperly locked, or you get your body turned before it can be locked, then they aren't likely to be able to break your arm anyway.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Dec 1, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> If your arm isn't already broken, stabbing him in the leg - especially high up in the thigh, where you can try for the femoral artery, or the popliteal artery behind the knee - will quite likely convince him to turn loose.
> And if (as in the video) the armbar is improperly locked, or you get your body turned before it can be locked, then they aren't likely to be able to break your arm anyway.


You're probably not going to be able to reach the artery behind the knee. The femoral artery is a possibility, although it may be tricky if the armbar is locked in correctly.

Even so, any sort of stab to the leg would probably get me to release the armbar. Either I've already broken the arm and don't need to hold onto it any more or else I didn't get the position right in the first place. Either way, trying to protect myself from the knife is much more important than cranking on the arm.


----------



## Buka (Dec 1, 2015)

My home internet is down for a bit, I'm at work on a computer from the Flintstones that won't play video. Sure wish I could see that vid. Drat.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 1, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You're probably not going to be able to reach the artery behind the knee. The femoral artery is a possibility, although it may be tricky if the armbar is locked in correctly.
> 
> Even so, any sort of stab to the leg would probably get me to release the armbar. Either I've already broken the arm and don't need to hold onto it any more or else I didn't get the position right in the first place. Either way, trying to protect myself from the knife is much more important than cranking on the arm.



I think the femoral would be the easier target, which is why I listed it first. In part, that is because of the size of the blade shown. In the video, he's basically staring at the grapplers popliteal artery, and with a shorter blade, I think it would be fairly easy to reach - although messy, since it's going to bleed into your face. 

But as you say, any stab wound would be a strong argument in favor of releasing the armbar. 

If being "junk punched" is bad, being "junk stabbed" has got to be worse...


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Dec 1, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> If being "junk punched" is bad, being "junk stabbed" has got to be worse...


If you can be punched _or_ stabbed in your junk, you've screwed up your armbar pretty badly. Of course, people do frequently screw up techniques under stress so it could happen.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 1, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you can be punched _or_ stabbed in your junk, you've screwed up your armbar pretty badly. Of course, people do frequently screw up techniques under stress so it could happen.



I was also thinking this when I saw the video, but I am far from expert on this kind of technique.  I have been taught to apply it but I have no level of experience such that I would attempt to use it in self-defense.  However, I've certainly had it applied to me during training, and it seemed to me that there was very little I was physically able to do except pound the mat with my free hand.  Attempting to reach over towards the opponent was rewarded with a 'tweak' that convinced me that such a movement was futile.

However, I am not immune to pain; some people are, either naturally or because they're on some mind-altering substance.  I don't do well with being maced (having been maced in training) but I have seen people get maced directly in the eyeballs and ignore it.

So I don't know whether or not the 'stabbing' can actually be done on a correctly-applied armbar.  I don't think I could do it, but you never know, I guess.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Dec 1, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I was also thinking this when I saw the video, but I am far from expert on this kind of technique.  I have been taught to apply it but I have no level of experience such that I would attempt to use it in self-defense.  However, I've certainly had it applied to me during training, and it seemed to me that there was very little I was physically able to do except pound the mat with my free hand.  Attempting to reach over towards the opponent was rewarded with a 'tweak' that convinced me that such a movement was futile.
> 
> However, I am not immune to pain; some people are, either naturally or because they're on some mind-altering substance.  I don't do well with being maced (having been maced in training) but I have seen people get maced directly in the eyeballs and ignore it.
> 
> So I don't know whether or not the 'stabbing' can actually be done on a correctly-applied armbar.  I don't think I could do it, but you never know, I guess.


Assuming you're sufficiently tough or adrenalyzed or high* enough to not just give up when your arm gets broken, you could probably at least stab your opponent in the calf or knee. There are some variations on the armbar which include some control of the far arm, so whether you are able to draw the knife may depend on where you are carrying it.

*(If you are that high, there's also the possibility that you might accidentally poke yourself in the process of stabbing your opponent. The angle of attack is such that stabbing the legs which are controlling you is also stabbing towards yourself.)


----------



## Danny T (Dec 1, 2015)

This video I believe was a setup to make a point.

As to the pain experienced from the stabbing. 
From my experience:
was stabbed once in the rt forearm and in once in the rt side. The forearm stab hit the bone but there was no real pain and certainly not incapacitating. The stab to the rt side went between the ribs and penetrated the right lung. Again no incapacitating pain. Though I had been punched. Continued to fight and wasn't until afterwards that I realize I had sustained damage. It was then that I realized breathing was difficult and upon inspection for damage I noticed a red foamy substance coming from the wound area.
Don't know how it would be to get the multiple wounds shown.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Dec 1, 2015)

Danny T said:


> As to the pain experienced from the stabbing.
> From my experience:
> was stabbed once in the rt forearm and in once in the rt side. The forearm stab hit the bone but there was no real pain and certainly not incapacitating. The stab to the rt side went between the ribs and penetrated the right lung. Again no incapacitating pain. Though I had been punched. Continued to fight and wasn't until afterwards that I realize I had sustained damage. It was then that I realized breathing was difficult and upon inspection for damage I noticed a red foamy substance coming from the wound area.
> Don't know how it would be to get the multiple wounds shown


That matches many other descriptions I've read of being stabbed. It seems very common for people who have been stabbed not to realize it until later.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 1, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That matches many other descriptions I've read of being stabbed. It seems very common for people who have been stabbed not to realize it until later.



Agreed. It's like being shot. The idea that it's going to drop the person is fairly silly. Eventually, sure  but not immediately. What's more important (in many cases) is if the person *knows* they have been shot or stabbed. I've seen more than one person go from combative to basically collapsed when they finally notice the hole.

Maybe the best knife offense is to stab them and then wave the bloody knife in front of them while pointing out the injury...


----------



## Danny T (Dec 1, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Agreed. It's like being shot. The idea that it's going to drop the person is fairly silly. Eventually, sure  but not immediately. What's more important (in many cases) is if the person *knows* they have been shot or stabbed. I've seen more than one person go from combative to basically collapsed when they finally notice the hole.
> 
> Maybe the best knife offense is to stab them and then wave the bloody knife in front of them while pointing out the injury...


It is a very physiological thing. Tell them they are cut, stabbed, and dying, the demeanor changes quickly.


----------



## Buka (Dec 1, 2015)

I just got to see that vid.  A lot of red flags. For someone to have shot it in what looks like a fairly deserted parking garage - the bad guy must have noticed someone filming him stabbing someone. And the person filming didn't seem to panic holding the camera while seeing someone stabbed multiple times. And the way the bad guy picks up the other guy under his armpits, and the takedown looks rehearsed.

Was there audio with that? I didn't have any here.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Dec 1, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Agreed. It's like being shot. The idea that it's going to drop the person is fairly silly. Eventually, sure  but not immediately. What's more important (in many cases) is if the person *knows* they have been shot or stabbed. I've seen more than one person go from combative to basically collapsed when they finally notice the hole.
> 
> Maybe the best knife offense is to stab them and then wave the bloody knife in front of them while pointing out the injury...





Danny T said:


> It is a very physiological thing. Tell them they are cut, stabbed, and dying, the demeanor changes quickly.



Hmm ... idea for experiment ... get a prop stage knife that won't cut but squirts out fake blood when activated. Slap somebody with it so the blood sticks to their shirt and then show it to the victim and point out the "blood." See how many of the subjects collapse from shock of the imagined stab wound.

Seems like a useful study. Shouldn't have any trouble getting IRB approval, right?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 1, 2015)

Buka said:


> I just got to see that vid.  A lot of red flags. For someone to have shot it in what looks like a fairly deserted parking garage - the bad guy must have noticed someone filming him stabbing someone. And the person filming didn't seem to panic holding the camera while seeing someone stabbed multiple times. And the way the bad guy picks up the other guy under his armpits, and the takedown looks rehearsed.
> 
> Was there audio with that? I didn't have any here.



I don't think there was any, but my speakers are turned off by default.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 1, 2015)

I think it is staged as well and believe that Tony covered many of the points needed to be addressed!


----------



## Koshiki (Dec 2, 2015)

Yeah, I'm not a ground fighter, but whenever I've been arm barred, I've never been able to punch (stab) my partner in the gut... Plus, the shirtless guy looks like he actually manages to bend his arm. If someone's over-extended arm is stronger than the straightening force of your entire body, I think you might be screwed even without the knife...

When I read the title, I was assuming a standing armbar. I've seen some standing armbars that are like holding a sign that says, takedowns and stabbings please! The two benefits of this grounded arm bar are greatly increased leverage and immobilization of the opponent.

Regarding sound, I had loud, poorly recorded pop music with some loud buzzing distortion, with some muffled shouting underneath. Kiiiinda reads like an anti-grapple propaganda piece...


----------



## drop bear (Dec 3, 2015)

The requirements for you to be vinerable to being stabbed is two things.

1.you are in range.

2. he has something stabby.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Dec 3, 2015)

I'm going to call 'faked' on that one. It looks a like a training video to me.


----------

