# I hate the casual Mac user



## AceHBK

lol...now this is for the casual Mac usuer.

I hate you all!!  
They always swear that Mac's are so great and all over pc's and swear that Mac's are the way to go.  These people kill me!!  All they do is write a paper and surf the net and don't mind paying over $2000 for it!  What idiots.

Now dont get me wrong...Mac's look nice and all but now way in the world would I replace my pc for a Mac.  Now granted if you graphic and art work then fine...but if all you are doing is surfing the net and and typing a few papers here and there.....please stop yappin that Mac's are so much better.

Ahhhhhhhhhh!!!
Sorry for my soapbox...im just really hating Mac's and the casual "i wanna look cool" Mac user.

And iTunes is terrible!!!  

:soapbox:


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## Carol

Yeah, well, in the high tech world we have a term for Mac aficionados - 

...unemployed :lfao:


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## exile

AceHBK said:


> lol...now this is for the casual Mac usuer.
> 
> I hate you all!!
> They always swear that Mac's are so great and all over pc's and swear that Mac's are the way to go.  These people kill me!!  All they do is write a paper and surf the net and don't mind paying over $2000 for it!  What idiots.
> 
> Now dont get me wrong...Mac's look nice and all but now way in the world would I replace my pc for a Mac.  Now granted if you graphic and art work then fine...but if all you are doing is surfing the net and and typing a few papers here and there.....please stop yappin that Mac's are so much better.
> 
> Ahhhhhhhhhh!!!
> Sorry for my soapbox...im just really hating Mac's and the casual "i wanna look cool" Mac user.
> 
> And iTunes is terrible!!!
> 
> :soapbox:



I use Macs professionally because of their (accessible) unix core and extremely easy interface between the desktop applications (including stuff like Adobe Acrobat), and the unix text formatting applications, including production-grade mathematical typesetting, that run effortlessly no matter how complex your graphics files or the other processes you're running in the background. I had a Toshiba a while back that I rigged as a Linux box, and it was like pulling teeth&#8212;my _own_ teeth, sans anæsthetic, come to think of it&#8212;to get the various applications to shake hands. For various purposes on campus, where I can't use my own machine, I have to use these Windows machines with their desperate and hopeless Mac-emulation/wannabe interfaces, and am reminded every time I do that just why I am happy to have the chance to pay exhorbitant amounts for Mac machines on the rare occasions when I have to replace them. 

And just in passing, I don't know any `casual' Mac users. Most everyone I know who uses a Mac uses it for high-level targets. I published a book a little more than a year ago which involved complex mathematical typesetting and formatting, way beyond anything MS's pathetic equation editor can do, and all of which I did on my Mac laptop and supplied to the academic publishing house my contract was with, and for most of the people I know who are on Macs, inside or outside of academe, this kind of use is par for the course. I've yet to meet any Mac users who use their machines as electronic toys.


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## newGuy12

Oh, that Microsoft sucks!  Anything but those dang fool Microsoft OS's!  We must rid ourselves of those swine!  They have done more than any other company to step on advancement of computer technology!

I follow Richard Stallman.  He will lead us to Freedom if we but follow Him!  I even belong to his Free Software Foundation!  I am an associate member!

I have tried, tried, to wean my Mother off of that Microsoft nonsense, but she will not listen to me.  

I want only the very best software on my machines, that is why I choose the GNU/Linux environment for desktops (ubuntu for ease of use and to so that I can have it at the ready if any new users wish to try it, I can help them to do what they want with their machines by showing them exactly how I did it -- and Arch on my Toshiba Satellite laptop for going about town and such and showing off!)

Now, I use the OpenBSD for my firewall.  That's right.  You ping me, you do not ping my modem, no.  You ping my freaking NIC!

Regarding the Macintosh, that's the best thing that they have ever done is to make use of the *UNIX*, the BSD.  That's right.  That is the glory of academia!  Berkley Software!  It was done The Right Way, and thanks to them the tcp/ip stack is open.  Thank goodness!  Microsoft can eat it!  I hate them!  They wish to monopolize everything.  I wish people would just see it and avoid them!

Anything but that horrible piece of $$$$$$$$$$$$.  I would rather any person upgrade to AT LEAST Macintosh.   That is a step up.  And the hardware, from what I am told, is very high end.  You get what you pay for when you purchase their hardware.


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## LuzRD

all i need now is Creative, ATI, and game support for FreeBSD and ill be happy

should i hold my breath?? haha


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## AceHBK

lol@Carol

Exile & NewGuy...I can respect that.  For someone who can sit and explain WHY they prefer a Mac and lists real reason as opposed to superficial one's then I have no quarrel with.  I wish more users were the same way.

There are LOADS of casual Mac users who only see it as an entertainment toy.  I mean in this generation people want something that is new and cool and that to them is what a Mac represent.  These poeple have no clue of how to install a driver or zip a file without someone holding their hand but will sit and tell you how great a Mac is.  Here are some reason that I hear...

1. "It looks cool and has a big screen!"
2. "They don't get the viruses and spyware that pc's get"
3. "I had a laptop for a year and now it is messed up...unlike my Mac which works fine all the time!"
4. "It's photo programs are better than pc photo programs"

Trust me those are just some of the lame excuses I hear from casual users who dont mind dropping all that money down for a mac and have no problem admitting that they only surf the net, listen to music, and may type a few documents on it.

Idiots


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## Big Don

Had Apple not given so many computers to schools and so many sweetheart deals to teachers and teacher's unions, the Mac would have gone the way of the *BETAMAX* long ago.
Macs don't keep Apple alive, Ipods and Iphones do.
I hate Mac users for the same reason I hate any selfrighteous person who has an overblown opinion of themself.


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## Bob Hubbard

I want out of the Micro$oft world, however I can't afford to re buy all the stuff I need to switch to mac (I have 2 mini's). I'd go Linux in a minute, except Photoshop and Dreamweaver aren't available in native mode, and there are no Linux equivilents with the functionality I need unfortunately.


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## Dave Leverich

I've used Mac since 1989, I've used PC since 1981.
And um, #2 on that list is pretty damned nice.

I'm a graphics professional. I use 4 Macs, and 1 PC (to test out crap on Internet Exploder, the most unprofessional piece of crap web browser out there, that still is non-complient with WC3). Btw, the Mac I have? Is a PC, it's Intel inside, the only difference is that it's made by Apple, oh, and it's OS doesn't crash randomly... er wait... ever.

I realize that the 'casual' Mac user may irritate, but so does the casual PC user. A moron is a moron, regardless of what brand of Computer they drive.


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## Sukerkin

That last point there is the one that counts more than any other.  

Yes there are users with money who have a MAC because it was trendy to have a non-beige-box computer and it is true that such people can grate ... but it's not their owning a MAC that causes the iritation.

Micro$oft driven open-architecture PC's are the worst case scenario when it comes to computers ... so of course that's the route we went down .


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## Brian R. VanCise

Well I have had Mac in the past and it was fun and I really like Mac's. (my next lap top will be one)

Still like Bob with everything I need to do I had to go PC.  Now here is the good news.  I personally know the person who hand built my PC from the ground up (best friend) and every component in it was top o' the line specifically designed for my personal usage. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  It cost quite a bit more but it was well worth it and it dances and run's laps around any Mac I could have engineered for a couple of thousand more. 

Here is knocking on wood that it continues to do so!


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## Omar B

Wow, a thread about hostility towards a computer/OS, now that's funny.

In any case I am a freelance journalist, my roommate is a computer programer and works for a pretty big web company and we both record music into our computers.  When he's not ficing PCs he's working on a Mac or Linux PC.  Here's the kicker Mr Mac hater, we both use Macs!  There are 3 non Mac computers in the house and they run Linux because we like both the Mac OS, Mepis Linux (or Ubuntu).

For me, it'll always be Linux or Mac, Windows systems bother me how buggy they are.


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## Andrew Green

I don't like Mac's for the same reason I don't like iPods.  Yes, they are nice, but they seem to want to ignore a very important concept, playing nice with others.  Not to mention Apple is ahead of even Microsoft on implementing DRM stuff that restricts what I could do with my own system and files.

So Linux all the way, better looking, doesn't crash, no viruses / spyware issues, updating doesn't take half a day of update - reboot - repeat, I don't need to install a ton of security software on top of the OS, and I get all the software I need Free 



Bob Hubbard said:


> I want out of the Micro$oft world, however I can't afford to re buy all the stuff I need to switch to mac (I have 2 mini's). I'd go Linux in a minute, except Photoshop and Dreamweaver aren't available in native mode, and there are no Linux equivilents with the functionality I need unfortunately.



Photoshop - http://luiscosio.com/how-to-adobe-photoshop-cs2-on-ubuntu-10-steps

Dreamweaver - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=200305


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## Xue Sheng

I support PCs

I support MACs

I hate them both equally


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## crushing

I don't get emotional over Mac v. PC v. Linus, or Ford v. Chevy, or TKD v. BJJ.  If it works for you, good for you.  Actually, I used to be a little more emotional about computers back when I had an Amiga.


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## Ping898

Andrew Green said:


> I don't like Mac's for the same reason I don't like iPods. Yes, they are nice, but they seem to want to ignore a very important concept, playing nice with others. Not to mention Apple is ahead of even Microsoft on implementing DRM stuff that restricts what I could do with my own system and files.


 
I'm with you there Andrew.  

I use a PC. I use MS out of necessity because of work, else I would probably just use a Linux distro.  I've used Macs in the past, when I was in college and I used to crash that sucker more than my win 98 box.  Mac's OS is definitelly a slicker interface than Windows, but it is not the greatest thing since sliced bread which is what I hear from hardcore mac users....


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## Sukerkin

A valid point there, *Ping*.  The case made a few posts ago about the all out superiority of a Ubunto linux platform is solid too.  The only real reason to run a Windoze OS on your PC hardware is for games compatability - if we could change that then the WIN virus would be gone for good.


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## Omar B

Glad to see other Linux users here.  I've got this old beat to hell laptop I got for a song and I use it as my travel/work computer and I could not be happier with it.  I run Mepis Linux on there and damn if it doesn't make this 4 year old laptop run like a beast!

The Mac desktop I keep in the bedroom but for work or sitting on the couch while trying to follow 4 football games it's gotta be Linux.


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## AceHBK

Omar B said:


> Wow, a thread about hostility towards a computer/OS, now that's funny.
> 
> In any case I am a freelance journalist, my roommate is a computer programer and works for a pretty big web company and we both record music into our computers. When he's not ficing PCs he's working on a Mac or Linux PC. Here's the kicker Mr Mac hater, we both use Macs! There are 3 non Mac computers in the house and they run Linux because we like both the Mac OS, Mepis Linux (or Ubuntu).
> 
> For me, it'll always be Linux or Mac, Windows systems bother me how buggy they are.


 
I never said I was against Mac or was a Microsoft fanboy.  I am just annoyed with the casual Mac user.  The user who has a Mac b/c of the "it's cool" factor.  The users who buy Mac's b/c they figure it costs so much money it HAS to be better than anything else.

I have an ex who swears to me that Mac's are superior to everything and she doesn't even know how much RAM she has on it.  It took her a day to learn how to get on the internet BUT yet she tells me how "superior" Mac's are.  That alone makes me give her the eye roll from hell.

She will tell me .."I had a laptop for 1 year and it totally messed up.  Pc's are like that and Mac's aren't."  Im sorry if your laptop starts messing up after a year and you claim that all you did was "type papers" I refuse to believe you.  You did something to it.  :flushed:

I think of these casual users as a casual MMA fan.  They watch a few UFC PPV's a year and now they think they are well versed in all aspects of MMA as well as TMA.  They will sit and tell you how superior MMA is to TMA.


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## Xue Sheng

Not to interrupt but I just realized I need to correct my previous post

I support PC and I support MAC and I hate the "users" of both equally.

There that's better.


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## Bigshadow

My paycheck exists because Microsoft exists and is THE powerhouse in the business world, so I don't care to see them go away.  Although they get on my nerves as much as they do the next guy.  

However, I do like Linux and I have had Linux firewalls and workstations I have built and configured.  IMO, Linux still isn't quite ready for many business related tasks, but some specific server related tasks they are quite good at.   Additionally, until they get a RAD software suite designed for linux, they aren't going to see a big shift to them.  Not to mention the user side of things where they have to interface with file types that Microsoft has already set as the industry standard.  Last time I saw the installation process for a linux workstation, it wasn't quite as simple as installing a windows application.  It may have matured more since then.  Once Linux can meet the common and frequent business functions and demands both on the back end as a server platform and on the front end as a user interface and provide a smooth data migration path, Linux's "Free" siren call is not going to attract much other than the hard core techies with the rebellious spirits.  

Lastly, I do not like Macs because of their closed hardware system (similar to IBM's PS/2 series) and OS, of course this is why they seem so reliable to many folks.  Another reason is a Mac is not really taken seriously in the greater part of the business world and I believe this is also attributed to what I said at the beginning of this paragraph.


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## newGuy12

Haha,  yes.  Its OpenBSD or some kind of GNU/Linux for me, but, its interesting how people love the Mac so much.

We have a REAL Network Admin where I work.  He knows all about computering.  If belts were awarded for this computer knowledge, he would be a IV Dan!  He's got *mad skillz!*

I once asked him about the Mac.  He said that he got one.  After he got it, the other computers in his house were turned off, and put into a corner.  That's how much he prefers the Mac.

I will say this, though, it would take more than a PowerBook to impress me at the coffee house.  Actually, what is REALLY impressive to me are those people who can "rig things up", and make them do things that they were not designed to do.  You know, the "void the warranty" crowd.  That is impressive to me!


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## Andrew Green

Linux software installation has come a long way in a short time, beats windows hands down.  The old Dependency hell is pretty much a non-issue on most distributions nowadays.

As far as RAD tools go, most are cross-platform:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rapid_Application_Development_tools


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## Bigshadow

Andrew Green said:


> Linux software installation has come a long way in a short time, beats windows hands down.  The old Dependency hell is pretty much a non-issue on most distributions nowadays.
> 
> As far as RAD tools go, most are cross-platform:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rapid_Application_Development_tools



When I can get the functionality of my Microsoft Visual Studios .NET Enterprise 2005 on the linux platform I may switch.  But until my company can operate completely on Linux and it doesn't interrupt the business process or cause support and maintenance issues, I am not changing.   This includes both desktop and web.  I have some pretty advanced sites running ASP.NET that would need to be switch.  However, I would NEVER switch only one or two parts and then go through the nightmare of trying to integrate the two systems, that would be complete ********!

Currently, as a software developer/MS-SQL DB Analyst/Web Developer/network engineer, I prefer the fire-and-forget approach.  Currently on our Microsoft system, I can do that and I rarely to never have any issues with things.

It is a very stable environment.


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## fireman00

I'm an avid anti-Microsoft kind of guy... billions of dollars in sales for an overbloated OS that folks put up with because they don't want to learn a couple of basic Linux commands ... and with the latest distros of Mandriva, Fedora, Puppy and  the MANY variations of Ubuntu you don't even have to learn the commands.  

As for software packages... the open market has exploded with apps in the last year.  I was able to buy a 500 dollar laptop and with Fedora 8 (after running the updates) everything i need is working FOR FREE!  Open Office, FireFox, Thurnderbird, Pan... and while there are "proof of concept" viruses out there for Linux there are no worries about gettign one in an email or someone hacking into your box.


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## Doc_Jude

I suppose that I qualify as a "casual" Mac user. Last year my grandma bought me a 120GB / 1GB Ram black MacBook. I use it for research in school, surfing the net, writing papers, burning cd/dvds, playing with pictures of my daughters, stuff like that. & it didn't cost so much, I did the shopping, she wrote the check. She said that she'd heard good things from her friends who were into computers, she's a retired career educator, & I'm following in her footsteps. 
After the student and ASB discounts that I got for buying it through Auxiliary Services at school, it cost about as much as the other laptops I was looking at, when combining the three-year AppleCare warranty and tech support package that came with it in the total. Yeah, it was a few hundred more than other comparable laptops, but I had to get the AppleCare. The most expensive thing that I got aftermarket was Windows Office for Mac, since I needed it for school. Got it for half off
My girlfriend got an HP through her dad's work and paid $300 less than me. We've both had them for a year. I got antivirus for it, just in case, but have yet to have a problem, & trust me, I'm a red-blooded American male, so I'm not always spending time in the most politically correct sites. My girlfriend who, like me, explores the Internet for all it's worth, is constantly complaining about spyware and viruses. Something's ALWAYS going wrong with her laptop. The other day I was having a problem watching vids on YouTube, and she was doing a victory dance until I downloaded an Update for Safari. Problem solved & she was back to moaping! Macs might be more money, & they're not perfect, nothing is, but in my experience, all of the worst problems that "casual" users run into just don't exist with Macs. & to some people who have a little more money to put down up front, it's more than worth it to avoid future headaches.
The only thing that I could say is not so good about the MacBook for the casual user is the selection of games, if you're into gaming. I'm not really, but I like Blizzard games like War/Starcraft & Diablo II, or Command & Conquer, all of which I have for Mac, so it's okay. 
My first Mac, & my first "personal" computer, has been nothing but wonderful. As long as Mac treats me as well as they have so far, I'll be a loyal customer.


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## Omar B

I dont get when people say somethign to the effect of "When I can do all my PC work on Linux I'll move."  Fact is, Everything available to a PC user is available to a Linux user, for free and stable.  I do agree with you Fireman.  I've seen everything from cell phones to entire web companies running on Linux and for a ffraction of what it costs to run it Windows based.  As I said, my main laptop that I use for work/travel is an older POS Toshiba I picked up for $300 2 years ago and it works like a charm.


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## Senjojutsu

While I may enjoy the chant Bill Gates must die! - the readers here may want to know some things:

Apple has had it share of orphans through the years:

The Apple III (almost destroyed the company in the early days)
The Lisa
The G4 Cube (the toaster that couldnt) 

Some other factoids:

The Californiacation of Apple revenue; as in 45% of its Apple Store revenue comes from its California-based stores. What will happen when the state slides off into the Pacific or is annexed by Mexico?
:uhoh:

From a PC sales perspective they are projecting to be ~3.2% market share based on units sold in 2007.
Apple held 9% computer market share in 1995, sounds like Apple is the becoming the General Motors of computers.

From the proud owner of an Apple MacBook running Windows XP.
:duh:


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## AceHBK

You know it just hit me....
Many people complain about how buggy Windows is and probelms with pc's but isn't that a good thing?

I mean is that how you learn more about your pc?  How to find out what is wrong and how to fix it?  I'll admit I knew nothing major about pc's till I started hanging out on messageboards and chatrooms and all.  It took catching a few viruses, spyware, etc for me to take the time to learn how a pc works and why this and that happens.  Nowadays the average person doesn't care.  They just want to feel that the more money they spend the less problems they should have despite how BAD they take care of their item and lets be honest...MANY people do not properly take care of their laptop/pc's.  User error is the biggest issue of them all.

I remember going from a Commodore 128 when it first came out and learning how to program...to taking time away from pc's (blame it on Sega and Nintendo) to getting to college in 1996 and finding out about the internet and really taking the time to learn pc's which has been invaluable to me now.


I sthis any different from auto manufacturers?
For example...

16yr old son, "Dad, I want a car"

Father: "Well it is about time for u to have a car to learn with...we should be able to find u a reasonable priced good american quality car"

Son: "No way dad...american cars are crap.  They always break down or have some kinda problem...I want a foreign car"

Father:  "That isn't always true but for arguments sake lets say that it is.  At least when it breaks down you will slowly learn about it and how to fix it yourself.  You will learn more about it if it has problems than if it doesn't.  Once you learn more about it then you can prevent a lot of things from happening.  A lot of bad things happen b/c people just don't take care of their stuff."

Son: "yea but we all have that feeling that the more money something costs the less problems we should have with it."


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## Bigshadow

fireman00 said:


> I'm an avid anti-Microsoft kind of guy... billions of dollars in sales for an overbloated OS that folks put up with because they don't want to learn a couple of basic Linux commands ...



Not everyone has the desire to learn archaic commands or to have to deal with script files.  Furthermore, most folks in the working world, just want to do their job and go home.  They learned the Microsoft UI and until there is a stupid simple transition path to another platform that has ALL  (I repeat ALL) the tools and functionality that they currently have on their Micro**** platform, you aren't going to be joined by the masses any time soon.  Certainly the Linux platform as a user interface is catching a toe hold in the consumer market for home use, but that is about it.  So it really isn't about learning a couple of basic Linux commands.

I would set up a linux workstation on one of my computers, but what would I do with it other than surf the internet and download porn?  I can't fire up my Visual Studios .NET 2005 and start writing ASP.NET websites or modifying some VB.NET apps that I have written for my company or start writing and managing my Transact-SQL scripts for my database server, or even load the SQL Enterprise manager to manage the SQL server itself.  Yes, Linux offers other database solutions that have matured enough for small businesses.  However, the transition is less than intuitive.

In time Linux will be a viable alternative, but for now Micro**** is the king of the pile.  So I am not jumping from a perfectly good sailing ship into a dingy just for the sake of being rebellious.

Just my .02 cents worth.


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## Bigshadow

Omar B said:


> Fact is, Everything available to a PC user is available to a Linux user, for free and stable.



That is simply not true.  




Omar B said:


> I've seen everything from cell phones to entire web companies running on Linux and for a ffraction of what it costs to run it Windows based.



Not really.  All you are looking at is the cost of hardware/software and licensing.  In the business world Linux systems still require support.  Linux support is more costly and harder to get.  That is one of the places where the companies that offer the free software under the GNU license, make their money.   So don't deceive yourself about lower cost of ownership.  It isn't a significant savings.

Additionally the cost of retraining employees can be expensive as well, depending on what role they serve in the company.

One other thing... The Web companies you speak of were probably startups where they had the option to go for cheap.  As I said in my previous posts, Linux does have good software for server based functions (ie webserver and database server).  However, for an established company the transition is not cost effective.


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## FearlessFreep

_
Additionally the cost of retraining employees can be expensive as well, depending on what role they serve in the company._

You know, I've never understood that argument that seems to apply when going from one OS to another but doesn't seem to apply from going from oner version of an OS to the next version or even software tools between versions when there are major re-toolings of the interface

If people can survive going from Win3.0 to Vista, they can handle going from WInWhatever to Ubuntu or OS/X.


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## Andrew Green

Omar B said:


> I dont get when people say somethign to the effect of "When I can do all my PC work on Linux I'll move."  Fact is, Everything available to a PC user is available to a Linux user, for free and stable.  I do agree with you Fireman.  I've seen everything from cell phones to entire web companies running on Linux and for a ffraction of what it costs to run it Windows based.  As I said, my main laptop that I use for work/travel is an older POS Toshiba I picked up for $300 2 years ago and it works like a charm.




No, I'm a Linux user and I'll say that is not true.  There is no open source equivalent of many Windows applications, and pretty much all games.

However Linux also has stuff that Windows doesn't


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## FearlessFreep

I use a Mac (but a Mac Pro last year and a MacBook a few months ago) for a simple reason.  I grew out of computers as a hobby and wanted to get on with my life.

As an aside, I was using OS/2 and drooling over NeXT back when Win3.1 was the latest.  Then I was using GNOME (and a few other Window Managers) on RedHat back when Win95 was hot stuff.  From a purely UI perspective (never mind the underlying OS)  I've been waiting for MS to come up with something decent for usability and flexibility... haven't seen it so far.

Anyway, software development has been my profession and my hobby for quite awhile now.  However, as I've gotten more experienced, or more jaded, or more bored, I've gotten tired of computers as a hobby.  Or rather, I got tired of computers having to be a hobby simply to use them for other hobbies and pursuits. I wanted more time to explore music and other things, where the computer just is a tool that works and stays out of my way.  I got tired of fighting Windows to get done what I needed to (and while I enjoyed Linux much more than Windows....I wanted to spend less time dealing with my computer, not more) 

So now I write software professionally on Ubuntu (using VMWare), and my own time is spent using a computer as a creative tool rather than a necessary evil

And for what it's worth, since the issue came up somewhere earlier, I've usd VisualStudio for C++ and C# development and I must say that VisualStudio in the first decade of the new millenium is almost catching up with some Smalltalk IDEs  I was using in the last decade of the last.... so I'm not impressed.  ( I say that tongue and cheek because I now do much of my Python development in emacs.... : (


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## Bigshadow

FearlessFreep said:


> And for what it's worth, since the issue came up somewhere earlier, I've usd VisualStudio for C++ and C# development and I must say that VisualStudio in the first decade of the new millenium is almost catching up with some Smalltalk IDEs  I was using in the last decade of the last.... so I'm not impressed.



I have been aware of the free IDEs for C and C++ on Linux, as I said earlier, there are no true RAD tools that rival the Visual Studios VB.NET, ASP.NET, and C#.   

Sure, C and C++ is cool if you have a million years to write a small application.  However, most businesses do not have that kind of time to bring a product to market.  That is why RAD tools are so necessary.

Oh, BTW, I was using redhat and gnome back in the day as well, but just for tinkering.  At that time it was nothing more than "Wow cool, I wish my Windows Desktop could do that!"


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## Bigshadow

FearlessFreep said:


> I say that tongue and cheek because I now do much of my Python development in emacs.... : (



Python is pretty cool!  I like it!


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## FearlessFreep

Bigshadow said:


> I have been aware of the free IDEs for C and C++ on Linux, as I said earlier, there are no true RAD tools that rival the Visual Studios VB.NET, ASP.NET, and C#.



VisualWorks Smalltalk

VisualAge Smalltalk (IBM) back in the mid 90s blew everything away at the time but they've let it languish since they've been focusing on Java.  Now it's just sufficient, probably on par with VisualStudio plus or minus a feature here or there.

Note that VisualWorks also ran equally well on Windows and Linux


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## FearlessFreep

Bigshadow said:


> Python is pretty cool!  I like it!




Oh, I *like* Python... like it a lot.  But to me, emacs is not really a Python IDE (even in Python mode).  However IDLE on Ubuntu is a bit flaky in some instances and I haven't found another good Python IDE for Linux (haven't tried Eclipse yet... did use Eclipse for Java in WinXP and OS/X, but not Python)


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## Bigshadow

FearlessFreep said:


> VisualWorks Smalltalk
> 
> VisualAge Smalltalk (IBM) back in the mid 90s blew everything away at the time but they've let it languish since they've been focusing on Java.  Now it's just sufficient, probably on par with VisualStudio plus or minus a feature here or there.



I will check it out.  I remember SmallTalk.  I will revisit it and see what can be done and how much skill sets transfer over.


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## FearlessFreep

Bigshadow said:


> I will check it out.  I remember SmallTalk.  I will revisit it and see what can be done and how much skill sets transfer over.




Not much.  It's a completely different mindset than C++  (Object model is close to Python but syntax is quite a bit different and mentality is a lot different.

However, my point wasn't to convince people to use Smalltalk   My point was  just generally decrying the lack of progress over the last 15 years at least when it comes to IDEs. especially in the more 'mainstream' worlds of C/C++, Java, and the like


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## Bigshadow

FearlessFreep said:


> My point was  just generally decrying the lack of progress over the last 15 years at least when it comes to IDEs. especially in the more 'mainstream' worlds of C/C++, Java, and the like



I never intended to imply there hasn't been progress in the last 15 years.  The progress has been amazing!  But at the same time, Microsoft has progressed as well.  The biggest problem still remains, the transition.  It is far easier to startup on a platform rather than transition hardware/software, and skill sets.


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## FearlessFreep

Bigshadow said:


> I never intended to imply there hasn't been progress in the last 15 years.  The progress has been amazing!



And that was my contention.  Progress hasn't been amazing.  VisualStudio and other IDEs for 'mainstream' development languages such as C++, Java, etc.. are sorta catching up to what was already available15 or more years ago in other languages (mostly Smalltalk from my experience ...and those IDEs only built upon what was already available in Smalltalk environments a *lot* longer ago then that)


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## Sukerkin

I'm astounded that some people who I have previously taken to be very intelligent fail to see behind the veil that is Micro$oft to the truth.

It's a waste of time to argue with such ingrained attitudes other than to say that, as with governments, populations get the software they deserve.

I don't know what development work or systems the MS lovers above engage in the production of but I just pray that it's nothing of consequence.

All I can say on the counter-side is that nothing we make ('we' being involed in the creation of control systems from everything from a 66kV Sub to a nuclear power station) runs on Windoze OS's, other than maybe a graphical interface here and there where it can't do any harm.

I don't mean to be confrontational, tho' I may sound it I'm just tired and so not very diplomatic, but bloaty crashware that needs regular reboots does not cut it outside of domestic apps and the Net.  We need something that works all the time and has a failure rate bordering on the realm of never.  

The sheer muscle of Microsoft (strange how noone ever mentions the copyright thefts involved in its creation any more) means that it can shoehorn it's way in to all sorts of markets but 'real' coding skill is still necessary when it comes to stable mission critcal apps rather than flash front-ends (that Linux does better).


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## Bigshadow

Sukerkin said:


> I don't know what development work or systems the MS lovers above engage in the production of but I just pray that it's nothing of consequence.



Microsoft is a love/hate relationship.  If they were not the industry standard then we wouldn't be having this discussion.




Sukerkin said:


> I don't mean to be confrontational, tho' I may sound it I'm just tired and so not very diplomatic, but bloaty crashware that needs regular reboots does not cut it outside of domestic apps and the Net.  We need something that works all the time and has a failure rate bordering on the realm of never.



I am familiar with Electric Utility systems.  Most of your stuff doesn't need a user interface anyway except user consoles in the control center.  Certainly in your line of work, Linux is well suited.  However, MS Servers don't need frequent reboots either.  What causes frequent reboots is often attributed to poorly written 3rd party software running on the MS Servers.  Back in the NT 3.51 and 4.0 days, reboots were common.  That isn't the case today.  In fact, I never understood why Microsoft put a GUI on it's Server.  When MS NT 3.51 and 4.0 came out I was a Novell/Netware Engineer and thought it was silly for a server to run a GUI and I still believe that.  


BTW, I have written server based services that are running on MS Servers and NEVER require reboots.  Running for 2 to 3 years without a hick up.  The only reboots our servers ever see are associated with updates and that is under our control.


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## newGuy12

Well, I can say this.  I am a hobbyist.  A true hobbyist.  I do not develop software for money.  I work in a low level tech support job, and am very happy to have that job.  Now, I work with some guys that are *TRUE UNIX MEN!*  And, that alone is a great boon to me.

You see, to me, the computer machine is a type of toy.  I wish to explore it, code up applications for fun.  Not for profit, for fun.  For the joy of seeing something work.  Now, one of the men that I spoke of just deployed squirrel mail.  He found three bugs (and fixed them!).  One was a huge bug.  

I respect the idea that coding that is open for others to see will be superior in the end.  That is truly how I feel.  More eyes on the code  means that it has the potential to be greater code.  That is an ideological belief that I have, and I am very biased.  I am a "true believer" and no one can change my mind about this. 

Someday I hope to participate in the "Community".  I may never be able to submit code that is worthy to be used, BUT, I may be able to be a competent beta tester someday, or perhaps help out with documentation.  The "Community" is a very wonderful thing!  I am amazed by it!  I can alter any kind of software in this environment in any way that I wish!  That is total *FREEDOM!*

I salute all of these great hackers right here and now.  They have given me so much pleasure with their kernels and applications!  That is one reason why I have joined the FSF and I have purchased official OpenBSD cd's (and will again in the future, I plan)!

Because I code only for FUN, not for a job, I can take this point of view.  There are no "deadlines" for me to meet with my little projects.  No.   There is no boss who tells me what to do.  It is only me.


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## Sukerkin

Fabulous post by *Bigshadow* above and kudos for your enthusiasm, *NG*.

I concur with what Mr Russ said with regard to how much of the troubles with server installations were down to badly written and integrated third party wares.  Quite true, David :rei:.

I also would emphasise the distinction between a server unstall and a normal user install.  

The user PC will generally be hit by many different kinds of software from all over the place and it must be said that, altho' things are better than they were, those programs often fail to get along well with each other.  Also, it can't be denied that a number of people doing those installs will have no idea of what they're doing - with inevitable consequences.


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## RED

Gee...I just looked at a Mac at best buy last night. First off let me tell you I don't know much about computers. I don't want to have a computer hobby. Other than my 3 kids, my hobby is a Fiat (Fix It Again Tony.) anyone who has owned one will realise you can only have one hobby when you own one. I can install hardware and that is about my limmit. If I have a problem with my computer I take it to my IT friend. I'm jumping into this conversation because I've had two PCs in the past year that got a virus and ruined the hard drive even with anti virus and a firewall. I was recomended to buy a Mac. I am a complete casual user that doesn't want the head aches involved with choosing software to advoid virus'. I just want to jump on-line and use it for my children's homework. Is a Mac the wrong choice for my family? I often thought of PCs as the Wal-Mart of computers. I don't work around computers, I put my bills in the mail, and gaming to me is getting the board out of the closet. I guess I'm hated here. I want something I can rely on that is GI proof.

I'm not for PCs or Macs I just want a shoe that fits. There seems to be a lot of experienced knowledgable computer guru's here...recommendations?


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## RED

Yeah!! I just made MT blue belt!

Now back to the subject.


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## newGuy12

RED said:


> I am a complete casual user that doesn't want the head aches involved with choosing software to advoid virus'. I just want to jump on-line and use it for my children's homework. Is a Mac the wrong choice for my family?



I can't comment on the best computer for your FAMILY, however, in my estimation, a Mac would be the best choice for YOU.  And no one can make me change my mind.

Unless someone in your family wants to play games that cannot run on a Mac, I see absolutely no reason for you to ever involve yourself with those excuses for Operating Systems that come out of Redmond.  More expensive, but freaking worth it -- I'm sticking to my story.  



All the best,

Robert


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## blackxpress

Been a PC user since 93.  Recently switched to Mac.  Use it for everything and love it.  Hate me if you want but I'll never go back to PC.  Macs rule!


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