# Knowing when to fight back



## girlbug2 (Oct 19, 2008)

On Friday I took a 2 hour carjacking defense seminar in Costa Mesa. Lots of good strategy and techniques for dealing with an armed carjacker. It was prefaced with prevention and awareness skills which I believe everybody needs to practice, such as not talking on one's cell phone when walking to your car (distracting)and looking into the vehicle first before opening it. A lot of lives could be saved if only everybody took some simple precautions.

There was one thing that left me with questions however. We were cautioned that it is always better to give away the car rather than risk one's life, but then never to let oneself be taken with the carjacker to another location because there's a 90% chance of being murdered. In between those two scenarios is a gray area where you have to make a judgement call -- do you have reason to believe that you will be shot anyway if you comply and hand over the vehicle? What kind of thing determines this decision, is it a gut feeling?

We were given various ways to fight back which I thought were ingenious, but I am still unclear about _when_ to fight back. It is very risky to use a disarming technique, so many things could go wrong depending on the type of gun being used, and we were told very likely that it would discharge once, and hopefully we will have been quick enough to deflect the aim away before that happens. How do I know when I'm better off "taking a stand"?


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## jks9199 (Oct 19, 2008)

There's no quick and easy answer or formula about when to fight back in any attack.  Because of how you've phrased your post, I'll assume you've already handed the keys over, or given the attacker your money -- and they're still there.  At that moment, you have to assess what's going on; why haven't they left?  Can you run?  Are they controlling you?  I think the best answer I can give is that the moment to attack is the moment to act to defend yourself is the first moment after you've realized you must that you believe you can do so.  It's not easy.  Like I said -- there's no rule we can offer.  You want to pick the moment that you feel you can most successfully act and get away.  Typically, this is probably going to be the first moment you realize an attack is happening...  but, again, there's really no way to give you a rule.


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## terryl965 (Oct 19, 2008)

When you feel it is the last resort.


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## HM2PAC (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm going to post a link to a Blog that deals with a lot of security issues.

The Blogger, FerFal, lives in Buenos Aires, Argentina, which has gone through a huge economic upheaval in 2001. Since then the crime in BA has gone through the roof and times are tough.

He has a unique take on carjacking. His take on everything is pretty much no non-sense.

You will have to comb through his posts to find what you want, however they are all good reads.

There is also a lot of "Survivalist" type stuff. If it's not your bag, don't pay it any mind.

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/


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## Deaf Smith (Oct 19, 2008)

If you decide you are going to risk your life to stop a car jacking, then I suggest you train for that possibility.

Way to many people say they will do 'this' or 'that' but few go the distance to be good enough to actaully be effective.

I think it's right to resist if you possibly can, but I also feel when you start the ball rolling you have better be good cause not only your life will be in danger, but many some loved ones to as well as innocent bystanders.

Deaf


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## hpulley (Oct 19, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> When you feel it is the last resort.



That can be too late though...  I don't say you should respond with deadly force first or anything but you must remember: the time taken to try other possibilities may not allow the time to fight back later.


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## terryl965 (Oct 19, 2008)

hpulley said:


> That can be too late though... I don't say you should respond with deadly force first or anything but you must remember: the time taken to try other possibilities may not allow the time to fight back later.


 
Whay is meant by that statement is when you feel danger and it is the last resort strike and strike hard, those that know me know what was meant.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 19, 2008)

you could have just gone up to LA and parked near any exist to one of the freeways and watched how car jacking is done for real.

It is always a hard decision to make fight back or give up the car.  I would say if you feel you are in danger of a personal attack not just losing your ride then take the chance and fight back.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 20, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> On Friday I took a 2 hour carjacking defense seminar in Costa Mesa. Lots of good strategy and techniques for dealing with an armed carjacker. It was prefaced with prevention and awareness skills which I believe everybody needs to practice, such as not talking on one's cell phone when walking to your car (distracting)and looking into the vehicle first before opening it. A lot of lives could be saved if only everybody took some simple precautions.
> 
> There was one thing that left me with questions however. We were cautioned that it is always better to give away the car rather than risk one's life, but then never to let oneself be taken with the carjacker to another location because there's a 90% chance of being murdered. In between those two scenarios is a gray area where you have to make a judgement call -- do you have reason to believe that you will be shot anyway if you comply and hand over the vehicle? What kind of thing determines this decision, is it a gut feeling?
> 
> We were given various ways to fight back which I thought were ingenious, but I am still unclear about _when_ to fight back. It is very risky to use a disarming technique, so many things could go wrong depending on the type of gun being used, and we were told very likely that it would discharge once, and hopefully we will have been quick enough to deflect the aim away before that happens. How do I know when I'm better off "taking a stand"?



First of all, you are at an inherent disadvantaged when unarmed against an armed assailant.......many folks advise that running is perhaps the best defense when confronted by an armed assailant.

As you said, when do you decide to fight back?  That's the Million Dollar question without a ready made answer......sometimes you have just have to pay your money and take your chances.

However, if you DO decide to fight back, keep in mind that half-assed is worse than not fighting back......any attempt to counter-attack should be done with three things in mind......SPEED, SURPRISE and VIOLENCE OF ACTION!



A lot of whether you will fight back or not is decided long before hand......if you decide in that situation that you will fight back before it ever happens, you'll respond quicker.  I've concluded a long time ago, being someone who carries a concealed firearm when i'm not working, that when confronted by an armed assailant I WILL TAKE THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY TO SHOOT HIM A LOT!

I've committed myself mentally and emotionally to that action.


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## trainable (Oct 20, 2008)

Im with Sarge on this.  Knowing you will fight back is the key.  Having tools is next.

In a high adrenaline situation, complex motor skills may not be available to you, so be very careful about disarming weapons.  If you didnt get jacked up during the training and use the emotional content, they are parlor tricks till proven otherwise.   I used to teach a course like the one you took, and have whittled out over half of what I was using due to the pressure check of adrenaline.  This can only really be "trained" well with great role players, a realistic scenario, and an element of fear.  Even then, if there's no brass in the chamber, there is no true "FEAR".  We have to get to the most realistic fake stuff we can in training without injuring one another.  Having a plan is a start though.  Good on you for taking the course.

The real decision on go-no go has to come from you though.  Your intuition will tell you things that are true.  A bad feeling about getting into a car is a true feeling.  You must then find your moment.  Getting the bad guy out of the moment while staying in the moment yourself may open the opportunity you need to act.  A distracting question or "pattern interrupt" may buy you the time to turn on your rage, or run like hell.  Either way, if you have a plan, I'm betting on you.


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## jarrod (Oct 20, 2008)

girlbug, there is a really, really good book called "the gift of fear" by gavin debecker.  it is primarily about tuning into your intuition in order to avoid or survive dangerous situations.  his basic premise is that your subconcious mind will detect & process information that you wouldn't usually notice.  i highly recommend it.

jf


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## girlbug2 (Oct 20, 2008)

Thank you all for your replies. I am having a hard time imagining that I could trust my motor skills or my intuition in a situation like that. Perhaps the answer is further training and practicing the moves. 

Mentally, I'm ready to do what I have to should it come to that. I pray it doesn't.

Weirdly, I was actually more confident in my ability to defend myself before that seminar. It brought up a lot of questions in my mind which I had never considered before. My confidence had obviously come from ignorance.


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## MJS (Oct 20, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> On Friday I took a 2 hour carjacking defense seminar in Costa Mesa. Lots of good strategy and techniques for dealing with an armed carjacker. It was prefaced with prevention and awareness skills which I believe everybody needs to practice, such as not talking on one's cell phone when walking to your car (distracting)and looking into the vehicle first before opening it. A lot of lives could be saved if only everybody took some simple precautions.
> 
> There was one thing that left me with questions however. We were cautioned that it is always better to give away the car rather than risk one's life, but then never to let oneself be taken with the carjacker to another location because there's a 90% chance of being murdered. In between those two scenarios is a gray area where you have to make a judgement call -- do you have reason to believe that you will be shot anyway if you comply and hand over the vehicle? What kind of thing determines this decision, is it a gut feeling?
> 
> We were given various ways to fight back which I thought were ingenious, but I am still unclear about _when_ to fight back. It is very risky to use a disarming technique, so many things could go wrong depending on the type of gun being used, and we were told very likely that it would discharge once, and hopefully we will have been quick enough to deflect the aim away before that happens. How do I know when I'm better off "taking a stand"?


 
IMO, any course thats taken, the instructor(s) will always stress to give up your belongings.  Be it your car, your watch, jewelery, etc.  as those things can be replaced.  But, I feel that they are thinking in the ideal situation.  In other words, they're going on the assumption that if you do this, you'll walk away.  But, the real question is, are you or anyone else, willing to take that chance?  Many times people will still get shot, pistol whipped, punched or kicked, even after they hand over what the bad guy wants.  

So, I look at it like this.  Either way, we stand a chance of getting hurt.  Don't hand stuff over, you get hurt, hand it over and you still can get hurt.  Odds don't look that good.  I say, fight for whats yours.  Doesn't matter if you are forced into the car or not, you can still get shot right there, on the spot.  

Of course, as it was said, having some good common sense is a plus as well.  Lock the doors when you enter the car, parking in a well lit area, have keys in hand as you approach the car, unlock the car via remote, as you approach, don't be distracted by things, such as cell phones and walking without being aware of your surroundings.  When at a red light, be aware of whats going on around you.  Keep some distance between you and the car in front of you.  During heavy traffic it may not always be possible, but its worth a shot.


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## trainable (Oct 20, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> Thank you all for your replies. I am having a hard time imagining that I could trust my motor skills or my intuition in a situation like that. Perhaps the answer is further training and practicing the moves.
> 
> Mentally, I'm ready to do what I have to should it come to that. I pray it doesn't.
> 
> Weirdly, I was actually more confident in my ability to defend myself before that seminar. It brought up a lot of questions in my mind which I had never considered before. My confidence had obviously come from ignorance.



1. A belief system that contradicts your action plan will create a choke moment during a high adrenaline situation.  I know you are having a hard time believing that you will act, but I beg you to consider what you will lose if you do not.  Make a list of the most important things to you.  Keep it personal, make it passionate.  Mine is my kids saying "get up daddy".  I would flip a car for that phrase from either of my boys.

2. A couple of hours in a seminar is a good start, but the subject is immense and needs more investigation, practice, and review.  Think of your awareness when you leave a building and head to the car.  Think of whats around before going between the cars.  Remember where the lights and noise are.  Look inside before getting in.  If you are approached think of what a normal person would do first.  Would a normal man press you if you say "no".  NO.  Would a normal man become a rapist or murderer if you rebuff his advances?  NO.  Will he be pissed?  Maybe, but it wont turn him into a killer or rapist.  

What do you do with this info?  Know what you will fight for, make it something that will drive the rage and indignation in your soul.  I want to be here to watch my kids grow up.  I will fight for that.  I know I will fight.  Then, I watch for my triggers to fight.  What is the threat, what is the context (family present, alone, weapon consideration, innocent bystanders),  where am I safe?  Stick these questions into some likely scenarios, and train from there.

Do the homework now, survive later...


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## trainable (Oct 21, 2008)

jarrod said:


> girlbug, there is a really, really good book called "the gift of fear" by gavin debecker.  it is primarily about tuning into your intuition in order to avoid or survive dangerous situations.  his basic premise is that your subconcious mind will detect & process information that you wouldn't usually notice.  i highly recommend it.
> 
> jf



Spot on Jarrod, I make this book a gift for taking my SD Class.  It is, in my opinion a must read for everyone, much less anyone seeking martial skills.  Understanding fear and fear management is the key to the door of our physical skills.  

Gavin's other books (must read for parents) "Protecting the Gift".  Helps us recognize and cope with the dangers facing our children.   Also, "Just 2 Seconds" is coming out and is available for pre-order.  No I dont work for Gavin, but I wouldnt mind.  Great resources for safety!


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## Deaf Smith (Oct 21, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> Thank you all for your replies. I am having a hard time imagining that I could trust my motor skills or my intuition in a situation like that. Perhaps the answer is further training and practicing the moves.
> 
> Mentally, I'm ready to do what I have to should it come to that. I pray it doesn't.
> 
> Weirdly, I was actually more confident in my ability to defend myself before that seminar. It brought up a lot of questions in my mind which I had never considered before. My confidence had obviously come from ignorance.


 
girlbug,

As long as you are not at fault for what happened, that is you didn't provoke it by words or threats, then you have no reason to hold back.

Yes, as jarrod posted, "the gift of fear" by Gavin Debecker is an excellent book (and he is anti-gun!) It shows many cases of people denighing the evidence of an attack coming and you could just see what the outcome was going to be, but the people in the cases just ignored their 'fear' and paid the price.

My belief system runs to the right of the Spartians when it comes to self defense. So there will be no confict with my decision making process. If it's "me or them" I assure you I'll do my best to make it 'me' that walks away and 'them' left on the ground.

I hope one day you feel that way to. You have a right to live. The right to your property, and you have the right to freely walk the streets. No thug has the right to take any of that. NONE!

Deaf


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## tko4u (Oct 21, 2008)

Taekwondo has taught me an important lesson. I need to avoid confrontations, BUT it also taught me that someone does not have the right to boss or bully me around.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 21, 2008)

tko4u said:


> Taekwondo has taught me an important lesson. I need to avoid confrontations, BUT it also taught me that someone does not have the right to boss or bully me around.


Yes true, but hopefully it has taught you what the heart of this thread is asking... knowing WHEN to do so and when to acquiesce to the situation and let it go. 
Sometimes all they want is what they want and they're trying to intimidate you into giving it then getting the hell out of dodge before the cops come around. 
Other times they want to intimidate you because they want to feel powerful and in charge. Sometimes this can be done without any violence at all (even with a gun being waved around... it shouldn't be a surprise that the gun might even be empty... though stupid to assume so) and you and your assailant gets away with no hurt... except maybe your pride, unless you can learn to swallow that and be grateful nothing more came of it besides your car or personal items/money got stolen. 
Some will be violent and yes, THAT is when action MUST take place. The threat of you being hurt is real and you have the right NOT to let someone do it to you. 
As said here in this thread... do it quickly, decisively and violently as possible... *stick to your training* but do the maximum amount of damage instead of the minimum amount. Honestly I think 20 years ago the minimum would've been enough but now-a-days... better to go full out, there are just too many variables to contend with. Meth is the main drug of choice among present offenders and it's just as bad as PCP or Angel Dust was during it's heyday. They're not going to feel anything and they are hyped to the gills either already being ON the drug or in desperate need of the drug/fix. Take 'em down and take 'em down hard. 
Avoid the "killing blow" if you can incapacitate them so you can get away,  but if not... do it and be done with it. Because that's their attitude to you.


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## Glycerine0160 (Oct 28, 2008)

Hey, as a guy, I worry less about these things. Sometimes in college I imagine what I would do if someone came in with a gun and the swiftness I would have on my knife. But this gives me more ideas for my intuition and awareness. You can get that fear book on amazon for 2 bucks used (plus shipping)

This reminds me. I take JKD, and when we we work with these padded plastic sticks I wince and blink heavily when they hit around my head. I try to control it but it's a trust issue too. It's in Bruce's book that you need to train yourself not to blink when taking a hit. Not really sure how to fix this (my MA place doesnt' really do heavy sparring, once in a blue moon light sparring) I don't feel like I blink then, but then again, we are not doing heavy sparring where yeah you take a hit, but there is little force behind it.   ..guess I should start having people punch me in the face haha


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## Imminent (Nov 5, 2008)

A lot of the posts seems to focus on the "weapon" the assailant possesses and I guess I see it differently.  The weapon I am need to stop is his capacity to act out his agenda, I could give a rats *** whether it is a knife or gun.  I have faced both, been injured by both and been saved by one reality, if his brain is broken so too is his ability to use the force multiplier he carries.  All of the times I have faced CQ settings empty handed, I felt at the advantage because the knife or gun is only dangerous if you stay outside, when I drive into the person and bury my thumbs in his eyes among other gross motor vectors, he brain is off, and as long as I keep him like that he can do nothing but get trauma.  Think of it like touching a hot plate, the hand comes back BEFORE you feel pain and that is the body overriding the brain.  Just my two cents worth, but if you get into the guy and cause trauma and keep doing it, you have put yoursefl in pretty good position.  I wouldn't use the force continuum unless it was inverse, you can always scale down but if he ramps up first you're screwed.


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