# Yoga, a Martial Art?



## Edmund BlackAdder (May 8, 2006)

I've had a number of strange chats this past few weeks.  A fellow I ran into at the library, insisted that Yoga was in fact an ancient martial art, much like TaiChi, practiced by ancient Indian Warriors.

Personally, it sounds like so much ah, "poopoo", to me, and I couldn't find anything while I was there to validate his claims.  But, my experience with yoga was seeing it on my local health club listing under "Sensei Bambi", so who am I to guess right?

Anyway, is there any truth in this weird claim?


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## liuseongsystem (May 8, 2006)

sure it runs counter to the generalized impression here in America.

in my system, their are said to be Indian influences and in fact we have a form that is called "taichi" but is most like an Indian warrior class form.  it is not taichi, it is yoga.

legend or not, it is said that the buddha came from India.


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## White Fox (May 10, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> I've had a number of strange chats this past few weeks. A fellow I ran into at the library, insisted that Yoga was in fact an ancient martial art, much like TaiChi, practiced by ancient Indian Warriors.
> 
> Personally, it sounds like so much ah, "poopoo", to me, and I couldn't find anything while I was there to validate his claims. But, my experience with yoga was seeing it on my local health club listing under "Sensei Bambi", so who am I to guess right?
> 
> Anyway, is there any truth in this weird claim?


 
I think that the name of the warrior class art was VrajaMukti of something like that. The bodidharma taught something similar to this to his students because they were falling asleep and where hunched over. I think this is where kung fu comes from.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 10, 2006)

Did some digging.....

"In sixth-century China, because Zen Buddhist monks who meditated for long hours were developing spiritually but weakening physically, Prince Bodhidharma introduced monks at the Shaolin Temple to what later became known as kung fu&#8212;a martial art based on Indian yoga. The monks were not only priests but warriors too, and practiced this first martial art on a daily basis."
http://www.yogajournal.com/practice/189_1.cfm

I've found many many sites where yoga and martial arts are linked or taught side by side.  Seems like a good combination at least, proper breathing, relaxation, flexibility...all good things for a martial artist.


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## elder999 (May 10, 2006)

While the bit about Boddhidharma is thought by many to be just a legend, the somewhat counter-intuitive fact is that the physical exercises that most of us think of as yoga, whose name is from the Sanskrit  root word _yuj_ for "yoke," or harness, comes from indigenous Hindu wrestling. There are actually practices called "yoga" that don't have any physical exercises at all, but that's not what we're talking about....


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## beau_safken (May 10, 2006)

I'm gonna say traditional yoga...

not the new age'y crap that is all over the place


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## Mcura (May 10, 2006)

This past weekend, my JKD instructor was remarking that he'd written a paper in his university days on the combative applications of yoga and other culture's indigenous dance forms.  The short example he showed me was a "downward dog" pose that translated to a diving knee bar and takedown.  And if the practitioner missed the leg, it folds into a forward roll.

His opinion was that every dance form, from the Hawaiian hula to the Maori haka, from the Zulu wardance to Yoga, concealed both healing energies and combative applications.  Now having said that, you'd have to really analyze these motions to figure out what these applications are.  I'm sure Teacher Betty doing the Sun Salute in SuperFitness wouldn't think of her practices as "martial" in any sense.

Now that I think about it, Pete Kautz wrote of the Tinikling in his website.  It's a traditional Filipino folk dance done with long poles that, coincidentally, teaches combative footwork over unstable ground.  http://alliancemartialarts.com/tinikling.htm  Hmmm ...

At any rate, I can see the validity of some "Warrior" poses in Yoga translating into throws and such.


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## lhommedieu (May 10, 2006)

There are some traditional Indian martial arts that incorporate wrestling, stirking, and weapons.  Yoga is probably an adjunct practice in these.

I think that also, there is some carry-over to traditional Thai massage and Thai boxing, the traditional Thai martial arts, etc.  There is an excellent Dog Brothers student/teacher named Russ Iger who was doing some research into Thai yoga a while back.  His take was that the yoga was great in tandem with the FMA and Thai arts that he was practicing.

Cf. 

Best,


Steve Lamade


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## Robert Lee (May 10, 2006)

Bing that kung Fu can be most any thing you do to improve. You could say yo ga is But To me yo ga is a meditation type posture. Which exhibits flexabilty postions . putting demand on focus of postion. Where a M/A part to say kung Fu training was training towards a warrrior type. tia chi was at ont time very strong M/A but later was incorporated as a more walking Zen of exersise and chi  both as a healing and viable body exersise. Now yes it can be turned back into a m/A type of training if one wishes. And as Most M/A style have gone into preserve mode many truths are lost.


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## blackdiamondcobra (May 16, 2006)

Been doing yoga for close to 22 years.  It is well integrated into the "warrior so to speak" training in the south of india where I train.  Our training is well modulated between yoga including yoga with a staff,  the martial and healing training, the end product bleeding into one. In my dvd the physical body:indian wrestling and physical culture, I talk about surya namaskar and its relationship to some of the indian wrestling. In Indian wrestling there are links to yoga and definitely massage again is integral.

In thailand, we also have Thai Yoga or hermit stretching, I usually use the first 19 standing postures prior to bare knuckle or krabi krabong training to help strengthen and stretch.  Thai Massage is also well integrated into the routines of thai boxers and other thai martial arts. So the integration is well tended there.


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## RoninPimp (May 16, 2006)

Yoga is not a martial art imo. Just like strength training is not a martial art. Neither is stretching. Good for a martial artist? Yes. But not a martial art.


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## Andrew Green (May 16, 2006)

On it's own I'd say no, but a good thing to help with it, like weight training, skipping, running and many other things that are good for you


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## Captain Harlock (May 24, 2006)

It can aid the warrior in obtaining a truer connection with themselves. There are many levels to this thought. On the surface is simple flexibility and energy. At the deeper, a connection to the all.


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## David Weatherly (Dec 19, 2008)

It's an old thread I realize but if anyone's interested they should check out Kalarippayattu.  
Traditional Indian martial art with a lot of yoga like stances.  It's clear that a style of yoga likely grew out of a martial tradition and begun to be practiced on its own.
David


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 19, 2008)

Interesting I will have to look for more about Kalarippayattu


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 19, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Interesting I will have to look for more about Kalarippayattu



I saw a Canadian-made documentary series about a journalist, also with a dan in Aikido, I believe -- who visited some different countries and trained various arts. Kalarippayattu was one of the systems featured, and it appears to be very strenuous. The fighters look very much like long-term serious yoga practitioners -- very lithe and stretched out. They also incorporate a massage regimen.

Wish I could remember the name of the series. It was extremely well-done.


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## David Weatherly (Dec 19, 2008)

Gordon Nore said:


> I saw a Canadian-made documentary series about a journalist, also with a dan in Aikido, I believe -- who visited some different countries and trained various arts. Kalarippayattu was one of the systems featured, and it appears to be very strenuous. The fighters look very much like long-term serious yoga practitioners -- very lithe and stretched out. They also incorporate a massage regimen.
> 
> Wish I could remember the name of the series. It was extremely well-done.


 

That series was called Deadly Arts, the host was Josette Normandeau.  She did six seperate episodes.  It was a good series.  I always thought it was an inspiration for Human Weapon.

David


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## David Weatherly (Dec 19, 2008)

By the way, Deadly Arts is available on dvd.

David


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 20, 2008)

How can Yoga be Martial Art?

Can yoga be used in War?

Does yoga have punches?

Does yoga have submission holds?

Does yoga have kicks?

Does yoga have elbow strikes?

Does Yoga have take Downs?

Does yoga and Joint Locks?

Does Yoga have knee strikes?

How can Yoga be a martial Art?


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Dec 20, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> How can Yoga be Martial Art?
> 
> Can yoga be used in War?
> 
> ...


You mind is closed. I cannot open it. I suggest an axe.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Dec 20, 2008)

Gordon Nore said:


> I saw a Canadian-made documentary series about a journalist, also with a dan in Aikido, I believe -- who visited some different countries and trained various arts. Kalarippayattu was one of the systems featured, and it appears to be very strenuous. The fighters look very much like long-term serious yoga practitioners -- very lithe and stretched out. They also incorporate a massage regimen.
> 
> Wish I could remember the name of the series. It was extremely well-done.


I'll have to look into that. Thank you.


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## jarrod (Dec 20, 2008)

David Weatherly said:


> It's clear that a style of yoga likely grew out of a martial tradition and begun to be practiced on its own.
> David


 
i'm not sure that's accurate.  there are only so many ways the body can move, & body movements tend to be similar within certain cultures.  savate has always looked sort of like ballet to me, but i don't think you can say that ballet grew out of the savate martial tradition & then was practiced on it's own.  

likewise a lot of traditional japanese dance feature slow intense movement, deep stances, etc.  that doesn't mean it's related to karate.

no offense intended, just mho,

jf


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 20, 2008)

Having practiced Kalaripayattu a little while in India I can honestly say that some movement does seem to fit with some certain yoga postures.  However, I would not call yoga a martial art by any means.  Just look at yoga and tell me where the martial side is?


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## MahaKaal (Dec 20, 2008)

I made a post about the types of yoga in a previous post, but I will re-iterate, there are two types of yoga in India, the most popular is Prayama Yog and the other is Waryam Yog.  The first is what is used by Sadhus (holy men) and more recently Ayurvedic promoters, who believe that using yoga and breathing techniques they can heal various ailments and diseases (i.e high blood pressure, diabetics, cholesterol).  The Sadhus use Prayama Yog to settle the mind and focus it towards meditation.

The other form is Waryam Yog, which is what is practised by warriors, wrestlers and swordsmen.  This is a more dynamic type of yoga, where holding postures is less emphasised, but instead more repitition of cycles are done.  The most common excercise being the Dand and Behtak (commonly known in the west as the Hindu Squat and Hindu Pressup) but there are many more traditional regimes and cycles which are learnt.  These build up dynamic strength without the use of weights, increasing power, stamina, agility whilst also maintaining flexibility, the key aspects of a good warrior physique.

Is Yoga a martial art?  No, but I see it as the key to building the body of a martial artist which will complement the fighting arts.  Since I have been practising it, it has made my body much more fluid, increased my stamina, strength and agility.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 20, 2008)

MahaKaal said:


> I made a post about the types of yoga in a previous post, but I will re-iterate, there are two types of yoga in India, the most popular is Prayama Yog and the other is Waryam Yog.  The first is what is used by Sadhus (holy men) and more recently Ayurvedic promoters, who believe that using yoga and breathing techniques they can heal various ailments and diseases (i.e high blood pressure, diabetics, cholesterol).  The Sadhus use Prayama Yog to settle the mind and focus it towards meditation.
> 
> The other form is Waryam Yog, which is what is practised by warriors, wrestlers and swordsmen.  This is a more dynamic type of yoga, where holding postures is less emphasised, but instead more repitition of cycles are done.  The most common excercise being the Dand and Behtak (commonly known in the west as the Hindu Squat and Hindu Pressup) but there are many more traditional regimes and cycles which are learnt.  These build up dynamic strength without the use of weights, increasing power, stamina, agility whilst also maintaining flexibility, the key aspects of a good warrior physique.
> 
> Is Yoga a martial art?  No, but I see it as the key to building the body of a martial artist which will complement the fighting arts.  Since I have been practising it, it has made my body much more fluid, increased my stamina, strength and agility.



Excellent post Mahakaal.  Like you I see it as an excellent complimentary conditioning, flexibility routine.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 20, 2008)

Is yoga a martial art today? I don't think so, no more than Tai Chi at the health club is. It's stretching and breathing and while you might see a lock or throw if you squint -really- hard, it's just not there anymore.

Was it at one point? Possibly. Just like there are effective martial tai chi branches still around today, you could possibly find an older yoga branch that has martial applications still.

I look at it as a limbering exercise that improves flexibility and proper oxygenation, which prepares your body and mind for martial training.


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## jks9199 (Dec 20, 2008)

MahaKaal said:


> I made a post about the types of yoga in a previous post, but I will re-iterate, there are two types of yoga in India, the most popular is Prayama Yog and the other is Waryam Yog.  The first is what is used by Sadhus (holy men) and more recently Ayurvedic promoters, who believe that using yoga and breathing techniques they can heal various ailments and diseases (i.e high blood pressure, diabetics, cholesterol).  The Sadhus use Prayama Yog to settle the mind and focus it towards meditation.
> 
> The other form is Waryam Yog, which is what is practised by warriors, wrestlers and swordsmen.  This is a more dynamic type of yoga, where holding postures is less emphasised, but instead more repitition of cycles are done.  The most common excercise being the Dand and Behtak (commonly known in the west as the Hindu Squat and Hindu Pressup) but there are many more traditional regimes and cycles which are learnt.  These build up dynamic strength without the use of weights, increasing power, stamina, agility whilst also maintaining flexibility, the key aspects of a good warrior physique.
> 
> Is Yoga a martial art?  No, but I see it as the key to building the body of a martial artist which will complement the fighting arts.  Since I have been practising it, it has made my body much more fluid, increased my stamina, strength and agility.


Yogic systems and similar methods of stretching, strengthing, and healing the body are a great -- and probably essential! -- complement to hard martial arts training.  It's a shame to see so many of the masters of yesterday who today are virtual cripples because they never had the opportunity to heal and compensate their bodies for the damage they've done to their bodies.


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## kidswarrior (Dec 20, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Interesting I will have to look for more about Kalarippayattu


Thanks for the link.  From said link, an interesting contrast with what I've learned and seen in most East Asian arts: _

Once the practitioner has become proficient with all the wooden weapons, he/she proceeds to Ankathari (literally "war training") starting with metal weapons, which require superior concentration due to their lethal nature....Only after achieving mastery with all weapons forms is the practitioner taught to defend his/her person with bare-handed techniques. :mst:

_This would certainly force the student to pay absolute attention at all times. The whole McDojo debate, for example, would go out the window if training partners were constantly swinging and lunging with hard and/or sharp objects, methinks. 

But I've now drifted way OT, I'm afraid. Apologies as we return you to the regular yoga program.


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## David Weatherly (Dec 20, 2008)

jarrod said:


> i'm not sure that's accurate. there are only so many ways the body can move, & body movements tend to be similar within certain cultures. savate has always looked sort of like ballet to me, but i don't think you can say that ballet grew out of the savate martial tradition & then was practiced on it's own.
> 
> likewise a lot of traditional japanese dance feature slow intense movement, deep stances, etc. that doesn't mean it's related to karate.
> 
> ...


 

No offense taken.  Perhaps I should have been more clear.  I believe that yoga grew out of Indian martial traditions.  Imagine taking a set of conditioning excersises out of a martial tradition and begining to practice them as a seperate set of forms.  Over time of course it would evolve and as someone pointed out there are numerous forms of yoga today.  

JMO but based on discussions and experience with Indian martial artists.

David


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## zeeberex (Dec 20, 2008)

liuseongsystem said:


> sure it runs counter to the generalized impression here in America.
> 
> in my system, their are said to be Indian influences and in fact we have a form that is called "taichi" but is most like an Indian warrior class form.  it is not taichi, it is yoga.
> 
> legend or not, it is said that the buddha came from India.



He did


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## zeeberex (Dec 20, 2008)

beau_safken said:


> I'm gonna say traditional yoga...
> 
> not the new age'y crap that is all over the place




In a martial context I would see Yoga as a conditioning thing rather than technique, kinda like Chi Kung vs Kung Fu


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 20, 2008)

Well yoga has postures named Warrior 1, Warrior 2 and proud Warrior so it must be a martial art 

OK I just could not resist any longer, if it is any consolation I do a bit of power yoga and although I do feel yoga can benefit a martial artist I do not think any of the Yoga we do here in the west is a martial art.


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## jarrod (Dec 20, 2008)

David Weatherly said:


> No offense taken. Perhaps I should have been more clear. I believe that yoga grew out of Indian martial traditions. Imagine taking a set of conditioning excersises out of a martial tradition and begining to practice them as a seperate set of forms. Over time of course it would evolve and as someone pointed out there are numerous forms of yoga today.
> 
> JMO but based on discussions and experience with Indian martial artists.
> 
> David


 
that makes perfect sense.  kind of like how push ups were developed for the military (IIRC) then used more widely used.

jf


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## hkfuie (Dec 21, 2008)

beau_safken said:


> I'm gonna say traditional yoga...
> 
> not the new age'y crap that is all over the place


 
Am I the only one rolling on the floor, clutching my sides and trying to catch my breath?

"I'm gonna say traditional [substitute martial art of your choice]...

not the new age'y crap that is all over the place"



Sensei Bambi!

He's GOTTA be making that up!


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## Brother John (Jul 22, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> I saw a Canadian-made documentary series about a journalist, also with a dan in Aikido, I believe -- who visited some different countries and trained various arts. Kalarippayattu was one of the systems featured, and it appears to be very strenuous. The fighters look very much like long-term serious yoga practitioners -- very lithe and stretched out. They also incorporate a massage regimen.
> 
> Wish I could remember the name of the series. It was extremely well-done.


Agreed! There are training practices w/in the Kalarippayattu that seem a LOT like Vinyasana training in Yoga.
also: Varma Ati, an indonesian martial art, includes yoga like training as well.

Your Brother
John


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 22, 2010)

I know nothing of Yoga, but I found this:

http://bit.ly/bDmRvZ


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## Tiberius (Jul 24, 2010)

As an avid and VERY advanced yogini I find this thread quite intriguing. I do yoga like almost everyday since I was 4. I am a yellow belt at judo and kind of used yoga when I ran out of ides, however with little success so far XD .


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## Julian Figiel (Aug 10, 2010)

liuseongsystem said:


> sure it runs counter to the generalized impression here in America.
> 
> in my system, their are said to be Indian influences and in fact we have a form that is called "taichi" but is most like an Indian warrior class form.  it is not taichi, it is yoga.
> 
> legend or not, it is said that the buddha came from India.



Buddha came from India!?! Wow, how amazing!


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## Julian Figiel (Aug 10, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Did some digging.....
> 
> "In sixth-century China, because Zen Buddhist monks who meditated for long hours were developing spiritually but weakening physically, Prince Bodhidharma introduced monks at the Shaolin Temple to what later became known as kung fua martial art based on Indian yoga. The monks were not only priests but warriors too, and practiced this first martial art on a daily basis."
> http://www.yogajournal.com/practice/189_1.cfm
> ...



Your absolutely right!


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## Julian Figiel (Aug 10, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> I saw a Canadian-made documentary series about a journalist, also with a dan in Aikido, I believe -- who visited some different countries and trained various arts. Kalarippayattu was one of the systems featured, and it appears to be very strenuous. The fighters look very much like long-term serious yoga practitioners -- very lithe and stretched out. They also incorporate a massage regimen.
> 
> Wish I could remember the name of the series. It was extremely well-done.



If you ever do sir, please tell me!
Thanks!


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## Julian Figiel (Aug 10, 2010)

MahaKaal said:


> I made a post about the types of yoga in a previous post, but I will re-iterate, there are two types of yoga in India, the most popular is Prayama Yog and the other is Waryam Yog.  The first is what is used by Sadhus (holy men) and more recently Ayurvedic promoters, who believe that using yoga and breathing techniques they can heal various ailments and diseases (i.e high blood pressure, diabetics, cholesterol).  The Sadhus use Prayama Yog to settle the mind and focus it towards meditation.
> 
> The other form is Waryam Yog, which is what is practised by warriors, wrestlers and swordsmen.  This is a more dynamic type of yoga, where holding postures is less emphasised, but instead more repitition of cycles are done.  The most common excercise being the Dand and Behtak (commonly known in the west as the Hindu Squat and Hindu Pressup) but there are many more traditional regimes and cycles which are learnt.  These build up dynamic strength without the use of weights, increasing power, stamina, agility whilst also maintaining flexibility, the key aspects of a good warrior physique.
> 
> Is Yoga a martial art?  No, but I see it as the key to building the body of a martial artist which will complement the fighting arts.  Since I have been practising it, it has made my body much more fluid, increased my stamina, strength and agility.



Your absolutely right! I am 16 years old and I practice yoga; I am studying Buddhism, Hinduism, and Jainism, because they interest me! It truly does make you fluid, and increase stamina, strength, and agility, as well as flexibility.


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## Julian Figiel (Aug 10, 2010)

Tiberius said:


> As an avid and VERY advanced yogini I find this thread quite intriguing. I do yoga like almost everyday since I was 4. I am a yellow belt at judo and kind of used yoga when I ran out of ides, however with little success so far XD .



Advanced?!? Cool! Can you do a headstand?


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## blackdiamondcobra (Aug 14, 2010)

The documentary was called Deadly Arts with the woman from Canada going to various countries that the earlier person was referencing. I was supposed to be in the thai episode because they covered two of my teachers but I actually had to go to India to see my teacher.  I thought the older BBC the Way of the Warrior India segment was by far better.

I have done yoga since I was a teenager and trained and lived  extensively in India.  I found one teacher who I have been with now for over 11 years who teaches older forms of yoga and they  are integrated in the martial training, its a trinity of ayurveda, yoga and martial skills(marma adi). The yoga systems are very different from the commercial material we see, we also learn dhanda yoga or yoga with a staff.  Its not so much for fighting but the movements are aligned with the martial in opening the body and learning to  open marma points.  Massage is also an integral part.Some of the older kushti and vajra mushti systems use yoga forms as well.  I have begun my research into the original, ancient systems of yoga and there is alot to be seen. Very little to no research has been done on this topic.  

Many of the masters remain closed door in the south. They present one thing to the public and practice another within their chosen clans. Once i started to penetrate the systems and teachers a whole another world opened.


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## zDom (Aug 16, 2010)

blackdiamondcobra said:


> Once i started to penetrate the ... teachers a whole another world opened.



Um... 


Nevermind.


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## blackdiamondcobra (Aug 17, 2010)

the last sentence was a badly written and cryptic. What i meant was in certain deeper traditions in India especially in the south, they might be teaching or be known for one thing and behind closed doors they will propagate a system or systems only with family members and people they bring in.  They had several reasons for that and even in the modern era they continue on with that tradition. Its seemed prevalent to me that a great many of the old traditions are carried on and continue but we know little of them. One of these traditions is the older forms of yoga, the older forms of wrestling, bare knuckle and other martial arts. So in time hopefully they will surface and give more depth and understanding to these really old arts.


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## Tiberius (Aug 30, 2010)

I do yoga since I am 4, but I have no idea who to turn this into a martial art

http://img159.imagevenue.com/galshow.php?gal=gallery_1278814559854_411lo


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