# What type of martial arts...



## MasterTails (Oct 20, 2007)

I want to learn a martial art, I don't actually have a preference.  I took Taekwondo for a while...like 6 years ago >_>
Anyway, I was looking for more of a 'reactive' rather than offensive martial art, but something that could still do considerable damage. (What am I saying here any MA can do damage...)

Any suggestions?  Anything else you would need to know before you suggested something!?


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## ArmorOfGod (Oct 21, 2007)

The first question we have to ask is: what martial arts are offered in your area?  Next, out of those, which can you afford (some are very pricey, while others can be very inexpensive).

AoG


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 21, 2007)

I have to agree with the last post.  If yo can get to a school go visit it and see    if you like what is taught there. prices differ from school to school and paying the most may not mean you get what yo want or the best instruction so go look at what is in your travel area  and find one that you like.
Talk with students and instructors befor joining


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## still learning (Oct 21, 2007)

Hello, Have you try "JUDO"? ...it is more than you think....

Because of the actual contact and energy use in training....this Judo is an effective martial art.

Those who have Judo backgrounds and enter MMA...then to have a slight advantages to those without Judo backgrounds.

Judo does have it combat side to its art and not only for sport.

Judo is one of the closest thing to actual combat....where karate is hardly any full contact on a daily basis.

Wrestlers,kick boxing, MMa's, and JUDO......is actual fighting skills that is use daily and for real! ...........just my thoughts on this.....you will have to look more into it! ..........Aloha


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## theletch1 (Oct 21, 2007)

Read through this thread for some really good info on where to start.  The martial arts are a life long pursuit and entering into any training should be something done after the right research to ensure, hopefully, a successful journey.  Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Kacey (Oct 21, 2007)

These 2 threads may also help you choose the style that's right for you.  Good luck!

Resources for Beginners
Choosing a school


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## exile (Oct 21, 2007)

still learning said:


> Judo is one of the closest thing to actual combat....*where karate is hardly any full contact on a daily basis.*



I find myself constantly surprised, SL, at how consistent you are in simply denying all the contrary evidence that's been offered to your many, many repetitions of the bolded statement in the above quote. Whole books on street combat applications of karate, with detailed realistic training routines. DVDs. Explanations from _professional streetfighters_, who are also high-ranking Shotokan karatekas and karate instructors, of the combat potential of karate using realistic training protocols. And none of it, not one little bit of it, appears to have made any impression at all. 

But for those of you who, in contrast, are willing to examine evidence for or against a particular claim&#8212;who are, that is, interested in getting at something like the _truth_ of whatever claim is involved&#8212;please have a look at the Japanese Special Forces training in Shotokan that is exhibited in the video here. Ask yourself whether the level of intense structured violence built into this training, and its fairly obvious effectiveness, represents something that might count as a clear counterexample to still_learning's claim. Then take into account the fact that this sort of training is fully in line with the British Combat Association's training protocols, and an increasing number of North American dojos (though the latter will not yet have quite caught up to the first two, probably, given the legal problems that that kind of severe training entails). And then go back to still_learning's post and decide for yourselves how most judo training stacks up against the `pit-bull' style karate training exhibited here.

Please note: I am not knocking judo/jiujitsu in the least. Trained appropriately, it can almost certainly be a very effective street art, and it is a fact that many of the throws and grappling techs in jujiutsu are related to similar living techs in Okinawan karate, and latent techs in Shotokan and other Japanese styles (as shown in loving detail in Iain Abernethy's terrific book _Karate's Grappling Methods_, exposing the grappling techs that realistic bunkai for Shotokan kata reveal). My point is that, as always, it is how you train your MA that determines its street effectiveness; that there are many places and schools where karate is trained to a high level of street effectiveness, and there are probably many dojos where judo (like karate) is _not_ trained to that level&#8212;and therefore that invidious, and apparently seriously uninformed comparisons between the arts along the lines still_learning makes in the above post are very, _very_ wide of the mark.


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## MasterTails (Oct 21, 2007)

So, since there seems to be controversy, what would you say is the most applicable for actual combat?


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## Kacey (Oct 21, 2007)

MasterTails said:


> So, since there seems to be controversy, what would you say is the most applicable for actual combat?


This is a personal decision that only you can make.  What works for me, personally, may not work for you, and I would not impose my choice on others if it does not fit them.  In addition,  no matter how good the MA is, if you don't like the class, the instructor, the format - any particular thing about it - you won't stay, you won't learn, and therefore it won't work _for you_.  

That's why this topic comes up so often - some people believe that only their particular style is effective - but most people believe that there has to be a fit between the student, the style, and, most particularly, the instructor.

If you check the links I posted above, you will see that they lead to discussions on how to pick the art that is right for you - not the one that is right for someone else.


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## exile (Oct 21, 2007)

Kacey said:


> This is a personal decision that only you can make.  What works for me, personally, may not work for you, and I would not impose my choice on others if it does not fit them.  In addition,  no matter how good the MA is, if you don't like the class, the instructor, the format - any particular thing about it - you won't stay, you won't learn, and therefore it won't work _for you_.
> 
> That's why this topic comes up so often - some people believe that only their particular style is effective - but most people believe that there has to be a fit between the student, the style, and, most particularly, the instructor.
> 
> If you check the links I posted above, you will see that they lead to discussions on how to pick the art that is right for you - not the one that is right for someone else.



And let me add to Kacey's shrewd post a point which is often lost track of when people compare arts: you can approach _any_ of the arts as a _jutsu_ or a _do_&#8212;a set of combat techniques and training methods with a harsh, damaging payoff that ends a fight as early as possible, or a `way' whose ultimate purpose is not street combat effectiveness. The difference isn't generally a matter of technique, but of application: _how_ you train. Do you study the most damaging applications of the techs in your system: crushing strikes to the throat, joint-destructive low kicks, throws which will almost certain damage the attacker's head? Do you train all-out, non-compliant, unpredictable, with no strikes excluded (except perhaps that spearhand strikes to the attacker's eyeballs are replaced by light touches, as Abernethy explains in the final chapter of _Bunkai Jutsu_)? Do you consciously try to train to manage the adrenal surge and loss of fine motor skills that kicks in at the initiation stage of a violent physical encounter? Then your MA, whichever one you've chosen, is probably going to be a horrifically effective combat system, quite possibly more brutal than you bargained for or desire. That's what it was _created_ for! The fact that it may not be habitually trained that way says way more about changes in social conditions between 18th c. Asia and 21st century N.America and Europe than it does about the inherent effectiveness of the art....


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## Sukerkin (Oct 21, 2007)

Some very good and deep responses to the question above, ladies and gentlemen :rei:.

There's always an element of 'controversy' washing around the many styles of martial arts, *Tails*.  The trick is not to let it deflect you at such an early stage of your journey.

When you start out, you have no idea what will suit you, so it's natural to ask others who have gone before (which is one of the interpretations of _sensei_ by the way).  However, to sound hideously cliched, we all walk our own paths and we make decsions as we go that affect our judgement and opinions on the arts we (and others) practise.  All any of us can do is say "This is what I did" and all you can do is try it and see.

One thing that is a constant is that the longer you train and the higher you climb then the more you see that all arts are more similar than dissimilar.  

For example, one of my fellow MJER iaido students is also a very serious karateka (in fact, so is my iaido sensei).  Before a near fatal bike accident stopped me training, I spent over a decade trqaining in Lau Gar kung Fu.  Now you'd think that there couldn't be much that's the same between these two arts (indeed I used to hold a very low opinion of Karate until I'd studied enough to know better) but we find all the time in conversation of techniques and situations that the most common phrase that comes out is "Yes, we do that too".

So try things out and see how they 'taste'.  One word of caution, don't bind yourself to 'contracts' you can't get out of easily and, above all, take your time - there's no rush, you have a lifetime ahead of you.


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## jks9199 (Oct 21, 2007)

MasterTails said:


> So, since there seems to be controversy, what would you say is the most applicable for actual combat?


There's no best martial art.  (Bob, can we require people coming to MT to find out what martial art is "best" to read this 1000 times?  I know... I'm being silly...)

Each martial art has it's own strengths and weaknesses as an art.  Each practitioner then adds their own personal strengths and weaknesses and preferences, as well as training habits.  These all combine to make a particular person more or less effective.

What I'd encourage a person considering a style to do is to start by assessing a few things.  First, what's available in your area -- meaning the area that you can reasonably travel to several times a week.  This isn't going to be the same for a 16 year old as it is for 25 year old, and it's not going to be the same for a 25 year old making minimum wage with no car as it is for a 30 year old multi-millionaire with their own private jet... and the license to fly it.  Second, how much time can you devote, and when is your time free?  Training takes time; some styles demand more time than others, and it doesn't do you any good to want to take classes in something that's only offered when you're at work.  Third, how much can you afford to spend?  Don't forget uniforms, gear, and equipment.  Some styles are more expensive than others and there's no reason for you to go broke.  Finally, visit the schools.  See how you like them; see what you think of how they're taught.  Because if you don't like the training, you won't be there.


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## Cirdan (Oct 22, 2007)

MasterTails said:


> I want to learn a martial art, I don't actually have a preference. I took Taekwondo for a while...like 6 years ago >_>
> Anyway, I was looking for more of a 'reactive' rather than offensive martial art, but something that could still do considerable damage. (What am I saying here any MA can do damage...)
> 
> Any suggestions? Anything else you would need to know before you suggested something!?


 
Do you want to train for self defense, health, fun or do you just love the arts?

By reactive do you mean an art focusing on control rather than overwhelming your opponent?


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## Tez3 (Oct 22, 2007)

If there's hardly any contact in karate someone should have told my instructors! It would have saved me many bruises and injuries.


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## Brother John (Oct 22, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> There's no best martial art. (Bob, can we require people coming to MT to find out what martial art is "best" to read this 1000 times? I know... I'm being silly...)
> 
> Each martial art has it's own strengths and weaknesses as an art. Each practitioner then adds their own personal strengths and weaknesses and preferences, as well as training habits. These all combine to make a particular person more or less effective.
> 
> What I'd encourage a person considering a style to do is to start by assessing a few things. First, what's available in your area -- meaning the area that you can reasonably travel to several times a week. This isn't going to be the same for a 16 year old as it is for 25 year old, and it's not going to be the same for a 25 year old making minimum wage with no car as it is for a 30 year old multi-millionaire with their own private jet... and the license to fly it. Second, how much time can you devote, and when is your time free? Training takes time; some styles demand more time than others, and it doesn't do you any good to want to take classes in something that's only offered when you're at work. Third, how much can you afford to spend? Don't forget uniforms, gear, and equipment. Some styles are more expensive than others and there's no reason for you to go broke. Finally, visit the schools. See how you like them; see what you think of how they're taught. Because if you don't like the training, you won't be there.


 
Read this one OVER and OVER again!!!!!
Then 2 more times!

and
again.....


Then you'll see.

Your Brother
John


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## Tez3 (Oct 22, 2007)

What brother John said!

I always fancied doing capoiera but I know I'd never manage it, I'm just not flexible enough. The Chinese arts look super but no one does them near enough for me same with Iaido. Probably just as well there isn't too many schools around me, I'd be like a child in a sweet shop wanting to try everything! I've been told that Shotokan is ideal for bigger built people while Wado is better for smaller ones.The word karate perhaps a bit misleading for beginners as there's many styles. I know Kendo is expensive with the gear you have to buy.Judo, Juijitsu and BJJ suit people who don't mind close body contact. TKD I think probably suits people who like to be fast moving. I'm sure everyone could add to this but the point is that _there really isn't a best style, best school or best instructor only what suits and fits you. _


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## still learning (Oct 22, 2007)

Hello, In Japan ,Karate is more intense and strict and longer classes or training time.  They do alot of kumite fightning to.

The more you martial art classes practice against real fighting?  and with lots of contact? ....real self-defence against real speeds and force? ...the more you will become better at fighting back. (not sparring)

They say you want to learn martial art? ...take karate (genric name use here)....or you want to learn to fight? ....take (boxing, kick boxing, Judo, wreslting, bjj....)

JUDO because of the constance real like fighting training you do everyday...with contact and actual throws, and takedowns...JUDO is a great art to learn if you want to gain knowledge right away...it take years to learn all about JUDO...but the skills you gain is REAL STUFFS...Just my thoughts here....BEST IS TO TRY IT and form your own opinions...

REAL fightin?  look and study it.....how does your training compare to REAL fighting...or actual fighting on the streets? 

Martial arts training? ..and real fighting training? .....there is a difference....?       VERY few schools train like the Okinawa's style of hardcore....in the USA? ....just look around...

Aloha ( I will get blasted...that is OK....the truth is out there) or you will find out for yourself on the REAL STREETS of USA>>>


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## Tez3 (Oct 22, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, In Japan ,Karate is more intense and strict and longer classes or training time. They do alot of kumite fightning to.
> 
> The more you martial art classes practice against real fighting? and with lots of contact? ....real self-defence against real speeds and force? ...the more you will become better at fighting back. (not sparring)
> 
> ...


 

Are you trying to put me off coming to the States or just whetting my appetite for a fight? 

I fought full contact karate, still do hence my need for a dentist. 

If I could work out how to get a picture from my mobile phone onto my computer I'd post up the pictures of my bruises (why they are on there is a long story)

Ah the 'real' fighting problem. If someone is striking you..hard and you're striking back..hard that is a fight BUT IT'S CAN ALSO BE SPARRING. Many people spar hard.

Judo is a good sport. The best for what you call street fighting on it's own? Doubtful but it would depend on the Judoka. 

Best not to turn this into a style v style argument because as we have all said it depends on the person. (Deja vu is a wonderful thing)


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## theletch1 (Oct 22, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Are you trying to put me off coming to the States or just whetting my appetite for a fight?
> 
> I fought full contact karate, still do hence my need for a dentist.
> 
> ...


Tez, if you have a multi-media function on your phone you can e-mail the photo from your phone to your e-mail addy.

It amazes me that no matter how many times we have this conversation on the boards that it lasts for pages upon pages.  Visit different dojos, interview different instructors and follow your gut pretty much sums up what most folks will tell you yet there are a thousand different ways of saying it.:uhyeah:


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## Tez3 (Oct 22, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> Tez, if you have a multi-media function on your phone you can e-mail the photo from your phone to your e-mail addy.
> 
> It amazes me that no matter how many times we have this conversation on the boards that it lasts for pages upon pages. Visit different dojos, interview different instructors and follow your gut pretty much sums up what most folks will tell you yet there are a thousand different ways of saying it.:uhyeah:


 
Cheers I'll sit and see what I can do, I'm not posting pictures of my broken tooth though lol, the superglue is still holding! Sparring is non contact my foot!


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## terryl965 (Oct 22, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> Tez, if you have a multi-media function on your phone you can e-mail the photo from your phone to your e-mail addy.
> 
> It amazes me that no matter how many times we have this conversation on the boards that it lasts for pages upon pages. Visit different dojos, interview different instructors and follow your gut pretty much sums up what most folks will tell you yet there are a thousand different ways of saying it.:uhyeah:


 

I have to agree S_L is one a one man journey.


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## exile (Oct 22, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, In Japan ,Karate is more intense and strict and longer classes or training time.  They do alot of kumite fightning to.
> 
> *The more you martial art classes practice against real fighting?  and with lots of contact? ....real self-defence against real speeds and force? ...the more you will become better at fighting back. (not sparring)
> 
> They say you want to learn martial art? ...take karate (genric name use here)....or you want to learn to fight? ....take (boxing, kick boxing, Judo, wreslting, bjj....)*



You never looked at the `Police Shotokan' video, did you. Or found out anything at all about the reality-based full-contact street-realistic training that the British Combat Association provides endless seminars and courses in. Or the many dojos in the US which train karate hard combat. You still cannot make the conceptual distinction between the technical content of the art and the training methods, which vary widely in all arts from place to place. You haven't bothered to investigate _any_ of the documentation of these aspects of karate that you've been provided with in half a dozen threads.

I have to come to the following conclusions, still_learning: (i) you know little or nothing of current karate training for street use in places from the UK to Australia; (ii) you appear to feel compelled to broadcast this lack of relevant knowledge over every thread you post in. I'm totally mystified why you insist on repeating misinformation that has been rebutted by other MT members in virtually every forum you've posted it. Have you not figured out by this point that all you're doing is giving people who can identify all the ways you're wrong about karate all kinds of chances to _show_ you're wrong? 

I've come to accept that you aren't going to learn anything (usernames notwithstanding) about karate. All right; too bad, but that's your problem, not that of the karateka who know just what their art, properly trained, can do to an untrained violent attacker.  But I still can't figure out why you haven't realized that this kind of grossly uninformed rehash of your favorite dogma only serves to lead people to conclude that you do not know know enough about what you're talking about to be taken seriously...




still learning said:


> Martial arts training? ..and real fighting training? .....there is a difference....?       VERY few schools train like the Okinawa's style of hardcore....in the USA? ....just look around...



Have _you_ looked around? Exactly what have you done that allows you to believe the truth of what you're saying here? What has your experience been? And hasn't it occurred to you that there are now training guides available so that people can set up their own realistic combat training programs? Have you read anything by Peyton Quinn? Geoff Thompson? Lawrence Kane? 



still learning said:


> Aloha ( I will get blasted...that is OK....the truth is out there) or you will find out for yourself on the REAL STREETS of USA>>>



You will _continue_ to get blasted until you start bothering to inform yourself of exactly what the `truth... out there' is, based on real information from the experts who have already done the work...


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## terryl965 (Oct 22, 2007)

exile said:


> You never looked at the `Police Shotokan' video, did you. Or found out anything at all about the reality-based full-contact street-realistic training that the British Combat Association provides endless seminars and courses in. Or the many dojos in the US which train karate hard combat. You still cannot make the conceptual distinction between the technical content of the art and the training methods, which vary widely in all arts from place to place. You haven't bothered to investigate _any_ of the documentation of these aspects of karate that you've been provided with in half a dozen threads.
> 
> I have to come to the following conclusions, still_learning: (i) you know little or nothing of current karate training for street use in places from the UK to Australia; (ii) you appear to feel compelled to broadcast this lack of relevant knowledge over every thread you post in. I'm totally mystified why you insist on repeating misinformation that has been rebutted by other MT members in virtually every forum you've posted it. Have you not figured out by this point that all you're doing is giving people who can identify all the ways you're wrong about karate all kinds of chances to _show_ you're wrong?
> 
> ...


 

Exile you know you are barking up the wrong tree. S_L will never ever agree with any of us.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 22, 2007)

exile said:


> I find myself constantly surprised...


 
ah, well, perhaps this is the problem sir, that you continue to be surprised where you should not, by now...


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## exile (Oct 22, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Exile you know you are barking up the wrong tree. S_L will never ever agree with any of us.





Flying Crane said:


> ah, well, perhaps this is the problem sir, that you continue to be surprised where you should not, by now...



I'd answer you guys at greater length, but the orderlies keep showing up and shoving my hands back into this bloody straitjacket... :lol:

While they're off down the hall, I'll just echo what others have said above: you have to make the decision on a school-by-school, rather than an art-by-art basis. This is probably the single biggest garden-path that novices in the MAs get led down: the idea that all decisions about training methods, application of forms, and utilization of the full technical toolkit are determined once you decide which art you're going to study. The fact is, those decisions are not `made' by the art, but by individual instructors, whose knowledge, experience and attitude all play a role in how combat-ready the skills you learn in their particular schools will be. The thing is, not everyone wants to learn MAs for self-defense purposes. There are all kinds of reasons people study the MAs. There's probably a school that's accessible to you that takes a particular view of the MA it teaches which makes it just right for you; but you have to check the local MA school scene carefully for a while before deciding.


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## newGuy12 (Oct 22, 2007)

exile said:


> The thing is, not everyone wants to learn MAs for self-defense purposes. There are all kinds of reasons people study the MAs.



Yes.  Yes indeed.  There is SO MUCH more!  I have met people who have changed me for the rest of my life because of Martial Arts.  Such special times.  Such special people. 

Self Defense is but ONE aspect of the total experience.  There will always be one greater.  There is a Samurai saying that says something like that.  I can understand wanting to practice a Martial Art which is practical and will be useful in self-defense.  But my gosh!  There are so many other benefits as well!

Where to begin?

1) Have an interesting thing to do to learn.
2) Meet people (generally the people seem to be quite top notch who practice these Martial Arts)
3) Become better coordinated with your motions in general.
4) Better health (and ALL that that means -- better spirit of living).
5) If you stay a long time, you can be useful to others, perhaps giving them a little "heads up" tip or two when you are able.

The list just goes on, and on, and on.

6) Learn things about a different culture.
7) Have a place to go each night to forget everything else and FOCUS.  (This is very close to being a meditative practice, clears your brain, your conciousness).

Hahaha --> fighting off an attacker is just one little bit of food on the plate.  How about looking at the entire buffet which is ours?  It is very beautiful in its bounty!  Very beautiful!




Regards,

Robert


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## still learning (Oct 22, 2007)

Hello, I do believe there are some great schools that DO teach or prepare those for REAL fighting....at the same time....

Today with thousands of schools and so call Black belts that never experience the REAL world...are teaching what they learn that was past down to them and have change for today's students......is water down alot.

Look around and view all those Black belts that are promote by the thousands each year? ......when they have to face a REAL situtions....how many will be able to defend themselves?

There are many that can play baseball, football, martial arts.....only a few become Pro's in there fields.

A Black belt in the old days...were like PRO"S........Today it is very different......look around....anyone can get a Black belt!

like getting a college degree....almost any one can get one.....it doesn't mean....they know their stuffs.

THERE ARE NO STANDARDS OR REQUIRMENTS FOR EARNING A BLACK BELT.....

Martial arts is about be able to defend oneself......how many can do it in the REAL world?

REAL training for the STREETS.....fighting for your life? .....

STill learning has alot to learn ....that for sure....again Just my thoughts....

Most of you seen more Black belts than I will ever see (Hawaii has a small population) ........those that you see and know? .....how many can you believe can defend themselves.....look around?  ...All not just the top guy's....Mojo's

I am sure there are many that can do it too.......

Is Martial arts a factory? ........,..Aloha ( just my beliefs )


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## still learning (Oct 22, 2007)

Hello,  I use to believe everything my Sensi's, Professors, Instructor said!

I was a good sheep....and follow them everywhere and they teachings!

As the years go bye....my eyes starting open....I look around and started question many of the things that I was taught.....

Others also said the same things I was question...Today I still question what we are still learning...

Maybe I am an OUTLAW on way of thinking of what martial arts is about today....NO longer a SHEEP!  

Trust your intincts...follow the truths....even if thousand people say you are wrong....does'nt make is so....the truths are out there!  

Each of us will seek his PATH for the true way of learning the marital arts...I seek a different path from most...............

Aloha ( could I be lost? ) .....not!


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## terryl965 (Oct 22, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, I use to believe everything my Sensi's, Professors, Instructor said!
> 
> I was a good sheep....and follow them everywhere and they teachings!
> 
> ...


 

S_L you are not lost you are on a path of destruction, I have never in my 45 years in the MA heard anything like you. I hope you can find a path that can help you grow as a MA'ist and let you see the light for true training. ALOHA


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## Cirdan (Oct 23, 2007)

still_learning, this is not meaningful conversation. Whatever path you are on it seems awfully narrow right now. I can only hope it will take you to a place of reason and proper spelling.


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## still learning (Oct 23, 2007)

Cirdan said:


> still_learning, this is not meaningful conversation. Whatever path you are on it seems awfully narrow right now. I can only hope it will take you to a place of reason and proper spelling.


 
Hello, Our school teachers only taught the way they were taught to teach....NOT going out the box.....in Hawaii...where pigeon is spoken and use.....alot....so our education has NOT change much.  Can you tell by my writings? and spellings.....IF you live here...you will know we speak differently.

My path may seem narrow to you? ....but I see the whole world, question the WHY's....why are doing it this way...or is there a more effective way...Why?  you see people practice like this? ...yet fight another way? Why? ...it practice it works in class...but on the streets of real fighting...NO one fight like they practice? ....or WHY are street fights so different from Marital art training of self-defense?

Look at Russian martial arts? ..look at Kav Magva? ...look at navy seals? .....Look at MMA,s. how they train? Why they train that way? ...

NOT a sheep anymore......there are better ways to learn and train...some may not be found for another hundred years...than again maybe tomorrow? 

Amercan's believe their medcine is the best in the world....yet chinese...seem to know what works better many times....take Qigong...many of Our Doctors...questions this healing art? ...many also don't know why it works........

Kaiser Hospitals have classes and sessions (Qigong) in their hospitals....because Qigong seems to  heal many patients...yet American Doctors? ...many disbelieve...So do...that is why it is given at Kaiser Permanete Hospital in Hawaii!

Look around you....question why? ....do not become the sheep....learn to question? ...is there a better and more effective way to learn martial arts?

or do you just follow? and believe what is told to you? 

I am always seeking a better and more effective way to learn and train....still looking and still learning....and learning from mistakes too....

The art of learning? ...and teaching? .....CAN ALWAYS BE IMPROVE AND better ways to train more effectively....

Look at all the sports in the world....notice how training seems to be improving in all sports...what was taught before..is NO longer use today?

It is amazing on the amount of schools of thought on how to lift weights and excercise today?  

One day the training of martial arts will change too...THERE WILL ALWAYS BE BETTER WAYS TO LEARN and TO TEACH?

This is my beliefs.....one day the teaching of martial arts will be more effective and last time to learn them.  What took years...maybe less than a year? to learn!

If you believe the only way to learn is the way you were taught? ....than you will forever stay in the past.

Aloha ( thanks for giving things to think about) ....learn to see things different) 

PS: Yes! My english is terrible and the spelling is bad...Hawaii schools education?


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## still learning (Oct 23, 2007)

Hello, Why many things do not change?

Your Teacher, teaches you how to do your martial arts.  His teacher taught him his  way to teach it.  So he follow his past teacher lessons.

As you get promoted and become a Teacher....you will teach the way you learn it from your Teacher, and your students will teach it the way they learn it from you.....NEVER question the whys or is there a better way to learn and teach?

When the learning and teaching never changes.....it will stay in the past.

Until someone learns from someone else from other teachers and adds to theirs....some changes begins.

Bruce Lee is famous for this...take what works and let go those things that do not work....

LOOK at your own training and teaching's.....CAN  YOU SEE ANOTHER WAY?   Can you see what makes sense?  ...and what doesn't in your martial arts?

Don't go blind and follow like a sheep......OPEN your mind..to see other ways?

My Judo instructor told us: I will teach you the proper way for the throws....than make it your own.
You see...he does not do them like he learn them....he adjust them to fit him, so his moves are different than the text books, IT WORKS FOR HIM!
He is also training to make the Olympic team...he knows he is a long shot....from Hawaii!

Seek what is the truths...? Always question...your learning? ....Aloha


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## Cirdan (Oct 23, 2007)

still learning said:


> My path may seem narrow to you? ....but I see the whole world, question the WHY's....why are doing it this way...or is there a more effective way...Why? you see people practice like this? ...yet fight another way? Why? ...it practice it works in class...but on the streets of real fighting...NO one fight like they practice? ....or WHY are street fights so different from Marital art training of self-defense?


 
We have been over this a dozen times alreareay. Answers have been provided for you but you do not even seem to register that fact. For the sake of .... take a break and READ the posts.


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## Tez3 (Oct 23, 2007)

Cirdan said:


> still_learning, this is not meaningful conversation. Whatever path you are on it seems awfully narrow right now. I can only hope it will take you to a place of reason and proper spelling.


 
AMEN!


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## thardey (Oct 23, 2007)

MasterTails said:


> I want to learn a martial art, I don't actually have a preference.  I took Taekwondo for a while...like 6 years ago >_>
> Anyway, I was looking for more of a 'reactive' rather than offensive martial art, but something that could still do considerable damage. (What am I saying here any MA can do damage...)
> 
> Any suggestions?  Anything else you would need to know before you suggested something!?





MasterTails said:


> So, since there seems to be controversy, what would you say is the most applicable for actual combat?





Kacey said:


> This is a personal decision that only you can make.  What works for me, personally, may not work for you, and I would not impose my choice on others if it does not fit them.  In addition,  no matter how good the MA is, if you don't like the class, the instructor, the format - any particular thing about it - you won't stay, you won't learn, and therefore it won't work _for you_.
> 
> That's why this topic comes up so often - some people believe that only their particular style is effective - but most people believe that there has to be a fit between the student, the style, and, most particularly, the instructor.
> 
> If you check the links I posted above, you will see that they lead to discussions on how to pick the art that is right for you - not the one that is right for someone else.




Something that often gets overlooked in the wisdom of first seeing what's available in your area, is that you also have to look at what you're likely to come up against. Some of the most successful schools may be that way because they make the students feel prepared for what they see on their own streets everyday.

Each branch of Martial Art developed in response to a particular threat. Most of the time the focus gets placed on the community designing the MA, but little is placed on the threat facing that community. So the differences you will find in Karate, Judo, Jujitsu, etc reflect the problems they faced.

Look at your own community, or if you are traveling, the communities of where you are going. What do the "Bad guys" use there? Find what counters it. 

For instance, I live in a growing, rural area. Most athletes here were trained in football or wrestling. Some of them are trying to get into the local cage fighting. That means that I am most likely to have to face a tackle/takedown with wrestling. Also, most fights are from drunken, wannabe cowboys in a playful mood. Cowboys carry pocketknives as an everyday tool, even the wannabe ones. Meth is growing here, fast, and home-robberies, and identity thefts are expected to rise, as meth-heads are getting desperate for money. Meth affects people in certain, physical ways.

These are some of the main concerns I have on the "real life" streets of Southern Oregon. I have had to find answers to these problems.

What are the problems facing you? Do you have to fight for respect? Are there active gangs you have to deal with? What is a popular style of fighting where you live? Are you more likely to have to deal with an attack of legal paperwork, or by a single attacker, or by a group? What is the local attitude towards weapons in your community?

Find a martial art that deals with those questions, and you will find an art that you will believe in.


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## howard (Oct 23, 2007)

thardey said:


> Something that often gets overlooked in the wisdom of first seeing what's available in your area, is that you also have to look at what you're likely to come up against. Some of the most successful schools may be that way because they make the students feel prepared for what they see on their own streets everyday...
> 
> Each branch of Martial Art developed in response to a particular threat... So the differences you will find in Karate, Judo, Jujitsu, etc reflect the problems they faced...
> 
> ...


Those are great points.  And, as you say, ones that are very often overlooked.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 23, 2007)

exile said:


> I'd answer you guys at greater length, but the orderlies keep showing up and shoving my hands back into this bloody straitjacket... :lol:
> 
> While they're off down the hall, I'll just echo what others have said above: you have to make the decision on a school-by-school, rather than an art-by-art basis. This is probably the single biggest garden-path that novices in the MAs get led down: the idea that all decisions about training methods, application of forms, and utilization of the full technical toolkit are determined once you decide which art you're going to study. The fact is, those decisions are not `made' by the art, but by individual instructors, whose knowledge, experience and attitude all play a role in how combat-ready the skills you learn in their particular schools will be. The thing is, not everyone wants to learn MAs for self-defense purposes. There are all kinds of reasons people study the MAs. There's probably a school that's accessible to you that takes a particular view of the MA it teaches which makes it just right for you; but you have to check the local MA school scene carefully for a while before deciding.


 

Oh, no argument from me.  I was just reminding you of one definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result...

Perhaps some people need to be allowed the room to pursue their own folly.  When/if they are ready, they will come around and reconsider.


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## terryl965 (Oct 23, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh, no argument from me. I was just reminding you of one definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result...
> 
> Perhaps some people need to be allowed the room to pursue their own folly. When/if they are ready, they will come around and reconsider.


 

Great advise and to be honest for some that day may never come.


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## exile (Oct 23, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh, no argument from me.  I was just reminding you of one definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result...



Yes, there _is_ that.... I guess it's not just second marriages that testify to the triumph of hope over experience, eh? But after a while, the point does begin to sink in... sigh...


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## newGuy12 (Oct 23, 2007)

Oh no, I can hear the orderlies approaching.  Everyone, quiet now, and if they ask if you have seen 'Exile', just shake your head "No!"!!!

I was hoping to find a youtube video showing a Kenpo Man with such fast hands.  All of the videos that I saw, though, showed only instuction, not so much a demonstration of those fast hands.

The only one that is close to what I hoped to find was this one Paul Mills:






Be sure to watch until the very last, because then you see Ed Parker.  Can someone dare say that they will have to "wait around" for this type of technique to be done?  No. Practice is at one speed, and the execution for self defense is much faster, it is like LIGHTNING!  BAM!!! One count!

There is no "one, two, three" counts, it is ONE!  BAM!

Here, here is another one, that is much longer, but if you need evidence, watch this clip:






Now, you can see that Mr. Paul Mills demonstrates by hitting the assistants that he uses.  You can see how the strikes make the opponent bend over, and so on.  They are tough students that do not mind being hit in this way, and you can see how these motions work, with the natural reactions.

Now, who will say that you will have to "wait around" for this technique???  Whoever messes with this guy is going to be nothing but a bag of broken bones by the time they hit the floor!!!


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## still learning (Oct 23, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> Oh no, I can hear the orderlies approaching. Everyone, quiet now, and if they ask if you have seen 'Exile', just shake your head "No!"!!!
> 
> I was hoping to find a youtube video showing a Kenpo Man with such fast hands. All of the videos that I saw, though, showed only instuction, not so much a demonstration of those fast hands.
> 
> ...


 
Hello, It is great to do demo's  against guys that are NOT fighting back...this is one of the ways to teach KEMPO!

We have the same strikes and moves.....it works great against a willing tarket!

Try do it against in a  real fight?  ..,.if those strikes are so good? ...how come you do not see this in MMA types of fighting? ...or Chuck Norris tournaments? .....or in any full contact tournaments or sparring sessions....

Study this well? ....Ask why you see it only in demo's ....if it works so good..how come the professional fighters....don't use them?

Watch Kempo sparring tournaments on YOU tube? ...do you see those strikes like in the Demo's?   in full kempo full contact fights? 

Yes those techniques will work on some people who are not fighters....but if it is so successful? ....why isn't everyone doing them ALL the time? ...

LOOK and see? ...what works.....study how come?

My present training is in Kempo-Karate....We have to teach those skill too? ....but We also mention....the real world too!

MOST people do not leave there punching hands or kicks ,out like in demo's......Most attackers are coming in with combintions, fast, furious,non-stopping many times........

Learn to look REAL good? ....question the training...ON the streets...when it happens? ...a street fight for your life? ....you may never get another chance? ..............seek the truths.......Aloha


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## still learning (Oct 23, 2007)

Hello, A great place to study some of this  kempo moves...is to see if it would work against boxers? .....study how boxers move and counter,duck and weave...see where you can use the kempo flows? ....will it work?  than you will know what I am talking about?  yes boxing has rules!

If someone blocks your punch? ....most people will not just stand there...you will counter, or duck, or weave, or kick, or strike with other hand, or move out or in or away.............

Demo's work because of the willing dummies........It the real world the attacker would NOT stay there!

BEST way it to experiment on your own!  ...always test yourself!

Aloha


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## Tez3 (Oct 23, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, It is great to do demo's against guys that are NOT fighting back... Of course against people who can't fight back! What am I? Stupid?
> 
> We have the same strikes and moves.....it works great against a willing tarket! I would chose an unwilling target?
> 
> ...


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## MJS (Oct 23, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, It is great to do demo's against guys that are NOT fighting back...this is one of the ways to teach KEMPO!
> 
> We have the same strikes and moves.....it works great against a willing tarket!
> 
> ...


 


still learning said:


> Hello, A great place to study some of this kempo moves...is to see if it would work against boxers? .....study how boxers move and counter,duck and weave...see where you can use the kempo flows? ....will it work? than you will know what I am talking about? yes boxing has rules!
> 
> If someone blocks your punch? ....most people will not just stand there...you will counter, or duck, or weave, or kick, or strike with other hand, or move out or in or away.............
> 
> ...


 
Hello.  Why do you base everything off of youtube and MMA?  Do you really think that anything outside of MMA is that useless?  Do you think Youtube has all the answers?


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## terryl965 (Oct 23, 2007)

MJS said:


> Hello. Why do you base everything off of youtube and MMA? Do you really think that anything outside of MMA is that useless? Do you think Youtube has all the answers?


 

Mike I would say it is his way of training. Basing everything off of MMA and youtube means the god truth. Come on Mike S_L is so right
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 on all this real fighting that we must all go to Hawaii to train real fighting techniques and spend the next month in the hospital. :erg:

I just want to be a real fighter and forget all the 45 years :rofl: of training.


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## newGuy12 (Oct 23, 2007)

Well, I have much respect for Still_Learning.  I will not go on about this any more, after this.  I only wish to say one more thing:

I totally understand where Still_Learning is coming from.  Everyone wishes to be secure in their practice when it comes to self-defense, after all.  Self-defense is very important, especially if you are attacked!

Now, that is true, and I think that it would be in my best interest to practice some with partners who REALLY GO AT IT.  Perhaps I will make some friends at the Kenpo school who will want to do that.  But... I am getting older and after a point, you need to slow that kind of thing down a little.  I mean, my body is not as quick to heal these days!

What Still_Learning says has importance to me.  I do not dismiss it, while still I will not abandon my practices to seek only self-defense skills.

I feel as though I have "stirred the pot" a little too much with my posts and that is regrettable.  I don't like to see this contention, and I vow to not be part of any argument.  I do not want to see you fellow users be upset for any reason.

I see what you are saying, Still_Learning, and will speak to the Kenpo Teacher about it.  He is a tough guy, and does not mind good contact and so forth, no joke.  I have trained with him before and say this with experience.  I will investigate sparring with a more "realistic" mindset, in order to get a taste of this, but will also not go so full-force as to get hurt too bad (no eye gouges, that sort of thing --> that is counter-productive to me, I work for a living!)

As for taking it the last step, and going about trying to have real fights with fully non-compliant aggressors who wish to do me harm, no, I will avoid that, and hope that it never happens.


Much Respect and Aloha,    Robert


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## still learning (Oct 24, 2007)

Hello,  Thank-you 'Newguy12"........this is a good reminder for what this web site is suppose to be!

"FRIENDLY"  ......Aloha spirit....means just that!  ...friendly

It is easy to lose this "Aloha Spirit" .....MAHALO (, hawaiian word for thank-you)

MAHALO'S,


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## Cirdan (Oct 24, 2007)

Wow... I .... Can ...see the... LIGHT!

Thank you still_learning for repeating the truth over and over to us. Since we are indoctrinated brain dead sheep with no free will we needed this to realize how the REAL WORLD works. The attacker won`t stand still! Will strike with the OTHER hand! wow. This stuff is DEEP! Give us more please. More TRUTHS!





















[/sarcasm]


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## meth18au (Oct 24, 2007)

Well the tension was accumulating for a while now wasn't it?   Everybody has actually been really patient.  I think this thread just topped everything off!!! 

Still Learning, can you not see where people are coming from yet?  Really?


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## JBrainard (Oct 24, 2007)

Good God, are you guys still talking about this? The reason I frequent MT instead of the other martial arts forums is to avoid these silly arguments about "this art is the best" or "this art isn't effective."
Christ on a cracker...


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 25, 2007)

*Attention All Users

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Super Moderator*


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