# MCMAP



## That-a-Way

Hi! Since the last time we spoke I've been "walking the streets" and I run into a guy who teaches self defense. Talking to him he revealed he followed the principles taught at MCMAP (for the on es who don't know, the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). I bought the book, it was like $2.99 on Kindle, pretty cool.

I went to a couple of lessons and he seems experienced and seems to follow the principles on the book.

What do you think about this? What seems fishy is: how he could have learned this things? He is a MMA Black Belt (not sure which rank), but this only means he knows MMA. How similar is MMA to MCMAP?

Any information will be appreciated. Thanks!


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## Headhunter

That-a-Way said:


> Hi! Since the last time we spoke I've been "walking the streets" and I run into a guy who teaches self defense. Talking to him he revealed he followed the principles taught at MCMAP (for the on es who don't know, the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). I bought the book, it was like $2.99 on Kindle, pretty cool.
> 
> I went to a couple of lessons and he seems experienced and seems to follow the principles on the book.
> 
> What do you think about this? What seems fishy is: how he could have learned this things? He is a MMA Black Belt (not sure which rank), but this only means he knows MMA. How similar is MMA to MCMAP?
> 
> Any information will be appreciated. Thanks!


He's full of **** there's no such thing as an mma black belt so anyone selling themselves with that shouldn't be taken to seriously


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## That-a-Way

Headhunter said:


> He's full of **** there's no such thing as an mma black belt so anyone selling themselves with that shouldn't be taken to seriously



Really? It says here there is such thing MMA Belt Rank


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## Headhunter

That-a-Way said:


> Really? It says here there is such thing MMA Belt Rank


Well there's not trust me. Name any top fighter who calls themselves an mma black belt...none how can you set a syllabus for mma when every singe fighter has a different style. Anyone using it is money grabbing


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## That-a-Way

Headhunter said:


> Well there's not trust me. Name any top fighter who calls themselves an mma black belt...none how can you set a syllabus for mma when every singe fighter has a different style. Anyone using it is money grabbing



Meh that's a shame. I really like MCMAP.


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## Tony Dismukes

In general, MMA does not follow a belt ranking system, although you can find some rare exceptions. Greg Jackson is a very legit MMA coach who introduced a belt system for his schools a few years back. However  those ranks should really be regarded as certifications within Jackson's personal system (formerly "Gaidojutsu", now "Jackson's MMA") rather than MMA in general. The website you linked to shows a rank system presumably used by the Pancrase USA organization, but I can't find any info indicating who might be issuing such ranks or what their qualifications might be.

As far as the MCMAP goes, it does have significant technical overlap with MMA. However, unless the instructor is a U.S. Marine, he won't have qualifications to teach it. Even if he is a Marine, that doesn't mean he earned instructor status in the art. Also, not all of the MCMAP is necessarily appropriate for civilian self-defense.

The guy you're learning from might have legitimate qualifications in something, but he should be honest about what those qualifications are and where he earned them and not try to teach a curriculum if he doesn't have a background in it.


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## Tez3

Headhunter said:


> Well there's not trust me. Name any top fighter who calls themselves an mma black belt...none how can you set a syllabus for mma when every singe fighter has a different style. Anyone using it is money grabbing



Of course there's no such as a black belt or any other colour for that matter in MMA as a whole, why would there be? Fighters fight for belts, honour money whatever, they don't do belts. As Tony says an individual gym might start up a system. It would most likely be for his non fighting students so they 'earn' something, but it's likely to be a money making thing, not necessarily a bad thing if the instruction is good.

As Headhunter says how can you grade fighters when they each have their own style and employ tactics for fighting depending on who they are fighting. If they can't do the techniques they will lose the fight or worse get hurt quite badly. There really isn't a way to grade them other than on their fight record.

I would take issue with calling Sheldon Marr an Olympian, while he did train with the USA Olympic team he didn't compete in the Olympics. I can't find out who awarded him his 7th Dan grade, perhaps other have more info?


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## Bill Mattocks

That-a-Way said:


> What seems fishy is: how he could have learned this things?



I am a Marine.  I know very little about MCMAP, as it came into being long after I had gotten out of the Corps.  However, what my Marine friends tell me is that it incorporates a number of the principles one might find in MMA.  There is some kicking, some grappling, some punching, some throwing, etc.

I agree with you that it is difficult to understand how a person could be qualified to teach MCMAP unless they are themselves Marines, and even then, I would have some hesitation, because MCMAP 'instructors' are only charged with training fellow Marines, which unless I am mistaken, neither this instructor you speak of nor yourself happen to be.  No offense intended.

Even in MCMAP, a 'belt' ranking is to be worn with the uniform, not with a gi or on the street, etc.  It has no validity outside of actual military training.

As to ranking in "MMA," I guess that is starting to happen now.  I've seen it.  I understand some of the concern exhibited by others here; like them perhaps, I have run into more than a couple weirdos who come into the dojo where I train and proclaim that they have advanced belts in "MMA" and "UFC" and other interesting terms that have no basic meaning.  In other words, they're all mouth and exhibiting their idiocy.  It might impress those who don't train, but no one who trains in any form of authentic martial art is going to be impressed by their made-up titles.

MMA, as you may know, is actually not a stand-alone art by itself.  It is a term which means that practitioners incorporate parts of many different arts in their study.  They take techniques from BJJ, MT, Judo, and even at times Karate and TKD and use them in ways that best fit the type of fighting they do.  And that's great.  No one is putting that down or giving the MMA guys a hard time about it.  They're terrific people and they're often quite capable and dangerous.  No argument there.

But I have not run into any 'real' MMA guys or gals who have called themselves black belts in "MMA" as such.  They might hold advanced belts in other styles, often BJJ, but they use their training to advance their work in MMA.

That doesn't mean someone can't invent a style, call it MMA, and proceed to give out belts in it.  And it doesn't mean that what they teach is automatically BS.  But it is *suspect* even if they are legit training some good techniques and have real ability.

It's like someone telling me they have a black belt in eye doctor.  Eh, what?  Eye doctors don't have black belts, do they?  Now, they might actually be eye doctors, and they might actually know their stuff optomitrically speaking, but I am going to tend to harbor some doubt, just because they're being weird about it.  Make sense?

I would definitely take a cautious approach and see what you can *independently* confirm about this MMA Black Belt's credentials.  Not what he says, what he can prove.  Certificates on the wall and photo ops with seminar big names don't mean much.  See what you can find out about his credentialed instructors and take it from there.

It doesn't make what he purports to be teaching invalid - it makes it worthy of further investigation before placing any trust in him.

Just my 2 cents.


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## drop bear

Headhunter said:


> He's full of **** there's no such thing as an mma black belt so anyone selling themselves with that shouldn't be taken to seriously



There is.  Greg jackson does belts.  Integrated does belts. Probably other legit belts out there. 

But yeah. Rule of thumb.  Red flag.


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## Brian R. VanCise

MCMAP has some techniques and principles in it from MMA but it has incorporated much more and has a broader system including weapons, etc.  Very different overall and a different approach overall from MMA.

If he has been a former Marine he might have learned MCMAP.  If he is an instructor in it he should have some credentials that he can show you. 

Like other people here I know of no MMA ranking system utilizing belts.  Could there be some out there... sure.  Does that make them rare?  As far as I know yes!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

I think you guys are going very extreme based on the limited knowledge we have. The OP stated he does not know what rank...my bet is that he is at a gym that does belts, or he is a black belt in a style (leading to the not sure which rank comment), and also does MMA. If he was in the marines, he might say that he takes the MCMAP attitude to it (look at the article that @Tez3 shared on a couple threads about krav maga for the 'attitude' idea).

I can't say anythign for certain, as, like I said, we know way too little about this guy to know if there are any red flags are not.


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## drop bear

Remind me again why we should fret, get upset and angry about how other people in other styles train?


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## drop bear

kempodisciple said:


> I think you guys are going very extreme based on the limited knowledge we have. The OP stated he does not know what rank...my bet is that he is at a gym that does belts, or he is a black belt in a style (leading to the not sure which rank comment), and also does MMA. If he was in the marines, he might say that he takes the MCMAP attitude to it (look at the article that @Tez3 shared on a couple threads about krav maga for the 'attitude' idea).
> 
> I can't say anythign for certain, as, like I said, we know way too little about this guy to know if there are any red flags are not.



MMA coaching and success standard is rated on fight wins though.  Not on belts.  Which is different to a lot of styles of training. 

It is the absence of that information that would make me double check.


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## That-a-Way

Thanks for the replies!!

Yeah this is for sure not a Marine. It felt strange that he would teach such a thing. I've been reading the book and there is a lot of stuff about armed situations and how to handle civilian situations peacefully. I assume he doesn't intend to teach us how to use a bayonete. What good would it do?

Even if he was legit, I don't think MCMAP has any value for me as I won't be walking around with an M16 just in case I get jumped... 

Still I liked the style, like it tries to combine a bunch of useful things for self defense. I gues it's like Western Krav Maga or something. I think I'm getting closer to my style 

Can anyone provide information or point me towards arts like this. The ones I know like this are basically: 


JKD
MMA
Krav Maga
I also remember from my last post that some of you pointed out that competition arts are not the same as it's self defense variation. It blew my mind to know MT has grabs!! Still I would like something that actually focus on some balanced training, like the ones I mentioned. Thanks!


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## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> In general, MMA does not follow a belt ranking system, although you can find some rare exceptions. Greg Jackson is a very legit MMA coach who introduced a belt system for his schools a few years back. However  those ranks should really be regarded as certifications within Jackson's personal system (formerly "Gaidojutsu", now "Jackson's MMA") rather than MMA in general. The website you linked to shows a rank system presumably used by the Pancrase USA organization, but I can't find any info indicating who might be issuing such ranks or what their qualifications might be.
> 
> As far as the MCMAP goes, it does have significant technical overlap with MMA. However, unless the instructor is a U.S. Marine, he won't have qualifications to teach it. Even if he is a Marine, that doesn't mean he earned instructor status in the art. Also, not all of the MCMAP is necessarily appropriate for civilian self-defense.
> 
> The guy you're learning from might have legitimate qualifications in something, but he should be honest about what those qualifications are and where he earned them and not try to teach a curriculum if he doesn't have a background in it.



The guys with the sportastic knowledge though.  The MMAers BJJers and such dont really struggle with grasping Mc Map.

According to soldiers forums anyway.


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## drop bear

That-a-Way said:


> Thanks for the replies!!
> 
> Yeah this is for sure not a Marine. It felt strange that he would teach such a thing. I've been reading the book and there is a lot of stuff about armed situations and how to handle civilian situations peacefully. I assume he doesn't intend to teach us how to use a bayonete. What good would it do?
> 
> Even if he was legit, I don't think MCMAP has any value for me as I won't be walking around with an M16 just in case I get jumped...
> 
> Still I liked the style, like it tries to combine a bunch of useful things for self defense. I gues it's like Western Krav Maga or something. I think I'm getting closer to my style
> 
> Can anyone provide information or point me towards arts like this. The ones I know like this are basically:
> 
> 
> JKD
> MMA
> Krav Maga
> I also remember from my last post that some of you pointed out that competition arts are not the same as it's self defense variation. It blew my mind to know MT has grabs!! Still I would like something that actually focus on some balanced training, like the ones I mentioned. Thanks!



Just do the MMA.  It will give you the basic high percentage starter set you are looking for. 

And then you can just go schoolyard from there.


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## hoshin1600

i didnt read all the posts so forgive me if i am repeating something already said.   i am not familiar with MCMAP .  i have heard of MACP.
modern army combative program.   which is based on BJJ.  created by Matt Larsen.  you can youtube it and they have competitions similar to MMA.


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## Tony Dismukes

hoshin1600 said:


> i didnt read all the posts so forgive me if i am repeating something already said.   i am not familiar with MCMAP .  i have heard of MACP.
> modern army combative program.   which is based on BJJ.  created by Matt Larsen.  you can youtube it and they have competitions similar to MMA.


MCMAP is the Marine Corp Martial Arts Program. I believe it has similarities to the MACP, but the Marines created their own version so it's not exactly the same.


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## Bill Mattocks

Tony Dismukes said:


> MCMAP is the Marine Corp Martial Arts Program. I believe it has similarities to the MACP, but the Marines created their own version so it's not exactly the same.



Trust me, it's not even close to the same.  Marines lack social graces and are rather proud of that fact.  We break things and kill people and it shows in our training.  No offense to the Army, they try hard.


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## Brian R. VanCise

That-a-Way said:


> Thanks for the replies!!
> 
> Yeah this is for sure not a Marine. It felt strange that he would teach such a thing. I've been reading the book and there is a lot of stuff about armed situations and how to handle civilian situations peacefully. I assume he doesn't intend to teach us how to use a bayonete. What good would it do?
> 
> Even if he was legit, I don't think MCMAP has any value for me as I won't be walking around with an M16 just in case I get jumped...
> 
> Still I liked the style, like it tries to combine a bunch of useful things for self defense. I gues it's like Western Krav Maga or something. I think I'm getting closer to my style
> 
> Can anyone provide information or point me towards arts like this. The ones I know like this are basically:
> 
> 
> JKD
> MMA
> Krav Maga
> I also remember from my last post that some of you pointed out that competition arts are not the same as it's self defense variation. It blew my mind to know MT has grabs!! Still I would like something that actually focus on some balanced training, like the ones I mentioned. Thanks!



I* would not categorize MMA with JKD or Krav Maga.*  Very different approaches even if there is some bleed over in technique.  MMA is a competitive based and specifically cage fighting based.  Whereas JKD, Krav Maga, MCMAP, IRT, Kali, FMA, Kajukenbo, etc. would all be geared towards violence outside of a cage and or competitive environment.  That does not mean that combat sports cannot be effective on the street or for personal protection it just may not be the driving force behind their methodology.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Bill Mattocks said:


> Trust me, it's not even close to the same.  Marines lack social graces and are rather proud of that fact.  We break things and kill people and it shows in our training.  No offense to the Army, they try hard.



Bill, next time I am in Michigan remind me to introduce you to my best friend Bart Uguccioni. (former Marine Recon)  You and he will get along absolutely great!!!


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## That-a-Way

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I* would not categorize MMA with JKD or Krav Maga.*  Very different approaches even if there is some bleed over in technique.  MMA is a competitive based and specifically cage fighting based.  Whereas JKD, Krav Maga, MCMAP, IRT, Kali, FMA, Kajukenbo, etc. would all be geared towards violence outside of a cage and or competitive environment.  That does not mean that combat sports cannot be effective on the street or for personal protection it just may not be the driving force behind their methodology.



No I know there are differences between them. I put them in the same group just because they don't base their combat style in only punching, or only grappling, or more importan they don't focus on anything specific. I like to think of them as "a mix of useful stuff", that's the only reason I categorize them "toghether". I understand their differences of course.

It is true that MMA is a more competitive discipline, rather than self-defence oriented.

You can actually train FMA as a whole?

I have the understanding that hybrid martial arts are the ones that take from different arts and mix them up right? I'm just finding that out now that I looked up Kajukenbo on Google. That's great. Kajukenbo actually looks wicked. I wonder if there are any good schools (if any) in my town. I'll gues I'll start "walking" again. Thanks for that!


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## kuniggety

Bill Mattocks said:


> Trust me, it's not even close to the same.  Marines lack social graces and are rather proud of that fact.  We break things and kill people and it shows in our training.  No offense to the Army, they try hard.



I'm an outsider looking in (Air Force), but IMO, the Army Combatives program is more robust than MCMAP. Army Combatives doesn't even begin to be a "complete" system but most of the belting done in MCMAP is done by belting in another martial art and just doing so many hours training in MCMAP. The curriculum itself isn't very extensive.


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## drop bear

That-a-Way said:


> No I know there are differences between them. I put them in the same group just because they don't base their combat style in only punching, or only grappling, or more importan they don't focus on anything specific. I like to think of them as "a mix of useful stuff", that's the only reason I categorize them "toghether". I understand their differences of course.
> 
> It is true that MMA is a more competitive discipline, rather than self-defence oriented.
> 
> You can actually train FMA as a whole?
> 
> I have the understanding that hybrid martial arts are the ones that take from different arts and mix them up right? I'm just finding that out now that I looked up Kajukenbo on Google. That's great. Kajukenbo actually looks wicked. I wonder if there are any good schools (if any) in my town. I'll gues I'll start "walking" again. Thanks for that!



Now that the streets have been raised. You then need to consider theoretical vs practical.

So self defence is mostly theoretical. As in what might happen. What might work to counter that.

Resisted training and competition is what will happen. In the gym and in the ring.

You need to have a system that is effective in both.


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## That-a-Way

drop bear said:


> Now that the streets have been raised. You then need to consider theoretical vs practical.
> 
> So self defence is mostly theoretical. As in what might happen. What might work to counter that.
> 
> Resisted training and competition is what will happen. In the gym and in the ring.
> 
> You need to have a system that is effective in both.



I do not care about competitions and I'm sure I'll never join one. That's not why I want to do Martial Arts.


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## drop bear

That-a-Way said:


> I do not care about competitions and I'm sure I'll never join one. That's not why I want to do Martial Arts.



Yeah but you are probably not going into a biker bar and yelling come at me bro either. 

For martial art to work it really has to be used on people. Or something just gets lost.


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## kuniggety

drop bear said:


> Yeah but you are probably not going into a biker bar and yelling come at me bro either.



Sounds like your average Tuesday night to me.


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## That-a-Way

Haha! Yeah I'm not trying to learn martial arts to start or seek fighting. Just have some fun learning and practicing, and if it ever comes to that, I'll use it.

I still agree with you. If you don't use it regularly in "real" situations, you may not get the best out of it. But I don't like competitions, and I don't like fighting either. I just want to be prepared if I'm ever forced to do it. I don't know if that makes sense


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## Midnight-shadow

That-a-Way said:


> Haha! Yeah I'm not trying to learn martial arts to start or seek fighting. Just have some fun learning and practicing, and if it ever comes to that, I'll use it.
> 
> I still agree with you. If you don't use it regularly in "real" situations, you may not get the best out of it. But I don't like competitions, and I don't like fighting either. I just want to be prepared if I'm ever forced to do it. I don't know if that makes sense



That makes perfect sense, just as long as you understand the limitations of said training. When it comes to fighting, a lot of it comes down to experience. You could be a black belt and be able to do all the techniques in your system perfectly, and still get beaten up by a white belt who has been in a lot more fights than you. Just for an example, a lot of people go down like a sack of bricks the first time they get hit by a proper punch, whereas a seasoned fighter can shrug it off and recover from the punch quicker. Is that to say your training is useless? Absolutely not, but you need to be aware that there's a huge difference between training and an actual fight.


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## drop bear

kuniggety said:


> Sounds like your average Tuesday night to me.



And of course what could happen?

I mean they are just a social club right?


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## That-a-Way

Yeah I know it would be best to fight on a regular basis. Maybe some aggressive sparing? I gues I'll decide when I'm experienced enough. For now thank you all for the replies!


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## Midnight-shadow

That-a-Way said:


> Yeah I know it would be best to fight on a regular basis. Maybe some aggressive sparing? I gues I'll decide when I'm experienced enough. For now thank you all for the replies!



Sure. Get some pads and gloves on and see how many punches you can block. Also, you can try exercises like I detailed in the thread below:

An interesting experience


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## Bill Mattocks

kuniggety said:


> I'm an outsider looking in (Air Force), but IMO, the Army Combatives program is more robust than MCMAP. Army Combatives doesn't even begin to be a "complete" system but most of the belting done in MCMAP is done by belting in another martial art and just doing so many hours training in MCMAP. The curriculum itself isn't very extensive.



Well, you know, Air Force.  If I need to know what kind of armchair to buy, I will seek your advice.  

Just teasing, really!


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## Steve

kuniggety said:


> I'm an outsider looking in (Air Force), but IMO, the Army Combatives program is more robust than MCMAP. Army Combatives doesn't even begin to be a "complete" system but most of the belting done in MCMAP is done by belting in another martial art and just doing so many hours training in MCMAP. The curriculum itself isn't very extensive.


What do (did) you do in the air Force?


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## kuniggety

Bill Mattocks said:


> Well, you know, Air Force.  If I need to know what kind of armchair to buy, I will seek your advice.
> 
> Just teasing, really!




Off topic...

A Marine, a Soldier, a Sailor, and an Airman all find a scorpion in their tents...

The Marine picks it up with his bare hands and bites the head off.

The Soldier steps on it with his boot.

The Sailor calls 911.

The Airman calls room service and asks why there's a tent in their hotel room.


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## Steve

MARINES

Muscles Are Required; Intelligence Not Essential, Sir.


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## That-a-Way

Hey I do not mind the off topicness. I already got all the help I needed. Since this is a personal issue I doubt anyone else will need this thread anyways!


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## kuniggety

Steve said:


> What do (did) you do in the air Force?



During my first 7 years I worked in aircraft maintenance, specifically back-shop F-15 avionics systems with a stint doing computer support for my unit. For the last 8 years, I've worked in intelligence (operations intel which was recently renamed to all-source).


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## drop bear

My MMA coach trains with the guy who trains the Australian Army.  Paul Cale. Paul Cale runs Australia's Kudo team.

My coach trains MMA but competes in Kudo.  Came third or something. The elements that make you good at MMA make you good at kudo.

Now Coach has done Pauls reality based system.  Which is one of the top of the line reality based systems in Australia. And had no dramas.

The elements that make you good at MMA that make you good at Kudo. Make you good at reality self defence.

Now i have had a crap ton of street fights.  Weapons multiples Had a gun waved at me.  Saw a guy set on fire in a street fight.  I am pretty confident my coach could beat the piss out of me in a no rules fight. Because those same elements.

When it comes to self defense a lot of people who think they know. Don't know.

I firmly advocate making a solid base of what you do know.


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## oftheherd1

Bill Mattocks said:


> Well, you know, Air Force.  If I need to know what kind of armchair to buy, I will seek your advice.
> 
> Just teasing, really!



I know you were teasing Bill.  But seriously, did you ever see the exorbitantly priced jet assisted arm chair the Air Force used to have?  I think it was called a B-47.


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## Steve

kuniggety said:


> During my first 7 years I worked in aircraft maintenance, specifically back-shop F-15 avionics systems with a stint doing computer support for my unit. For the last 8 years, I've worked in intelligence (operations intel which was recently renamed to all-source).


Intelligence... that's a word that only the USAF can use without irony. 

I was in for 4 years as an ammo troop.  Was in Germany for 2 years, San Antonio for 2 with several TDYs and a 6 month deployment to Saudi.  Packed a lot of fun into one enlistment.


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## kuniggety

Steve said:


> Intelligence... that's a word that only the USAF can use without irony.
> 
> I was in for 4 years as an ammo troop.  Was in Germany for 2 years, San Antonio for 2 with several TDYs and a 6 month deployment to Saudi.  Packed a lot of fun into one enlistment.



IYAAYAS...or something. I actually had a bunch of former ammo troops in my intel class. For some reason they all didn't want the job anymore.


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## Steve

kuniggety said:


> IYAAYAS...or something. I actually had a bunch of former ammo troops in my intel class. For some reason they all didn't want the job anymore.


If you ain't ammo, you ain't...  something? 

It's not a job I'd want to do for 20 years, but it was a blast as an Airman.  Drove a lot of heavy machinery, including all kinds of forklifts, road graders, cranes and big trucks loaded with bombs.  What's not to like?


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## Nobody Important

Bill Mattocks said:


> Trust me, it's not even close to the same.  Marines lack social graces and are rather proud of that fact.  We break things and kill people and it shows in our training.  No offense to the Army, they try hard.


Agreed, I was Army, have a lot of Marine friends. Army Combatives and Marine Corp Martial Arts are two entirely different beasts. Combatives didn't exist when I was active. Some of my buddies, who are old timers and still in, had me come back to train different units in CQC, because they didn't care for Combatives, wanting something closer to MCMAP in practicality.


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## That-a-Way

Nobody Important said:


> Agreed, I was Army, have a lot of Marine friends. Army Combatives and Marine Corp Martial Arts are two entirely different beasts. Combatives didn't exist when I was active. Some of my buddies, who are old timers and still in, had me come back to train different units in CQC, because they didn't care for Combatives, wanting something closer to MCMAP in practicality.



Is Combative some kind of fighting style?

Sent from my LG-H440 using Tapatalk


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## Nobody Important

That-a-Way said:


> Is Combative some kind of fighting style?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H440 using Tapatalk


Combatives as defined by U.S. Army

The mission of the U.S. Army Combatives Course is to train Leaders and Soldiers in close quarters Combatives in order to instill the Warrior Ethos and prepare Soldiers to close with and defeat the enemy in hand to hand combat.

The Modern Army Combatives Program (MACP) started in 1995 with the 2nd Ranger Battalion and has spread at the grass roots around the Army. It has been incorporated into the new TC 3-25.150 and Basic Combatives is one of the Forty Warrior Core Tasks of the Warrior Ethos initiative


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## FriedRice

That-a-Way said:


> What do you think about this? What seems fishy is: how he could have learned this things? He is a MMA Black Belt (not sure which rank), but this only means he knows MMA. How similar is MMA to MCMAP?



MCMAP = MMA Lite.   It's ok. MMA is rougher, and more effective if you're looking to fight empty hands.

They have belts in MCMAP. I've never seen the belt system in MMA, but it can happen and still be legit.  There are legit gyms that gives out belt rankings in Muay Thai also, ie. Rafael Cordeiro.  I'm not a purist snob, so I'm ok with this.


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## hoshin1600

FriedRice said:


> MCMAP = MMA Lite.   It's ok. MMA is rougher, and more effective if you're looking to fight empty hands.
> 
> They have belts in MCMAP. I've never seen the belt system in MMA, but it can happen and still be legit.  There are legit gyms that gives out belt rankings in Muay Thai also, ie. Rafael Cordeiro.  I'm not a purist snob, so I'm ok with this.



still stuck in your own little world i see.   i wouldnt call MACP,  .. MMA light.    it may not be high level BJJ, but i would like to see you try rolling with knives and taking on a bayonet on the end of a rifle.
this clip is Marine's not the MACP but notice your MMA fighters failed big time.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

MCMAP is not mma or like mma.  It encompasses more as it deals with weapons.


----------



## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> still stuck in your own little world i see.   i wouldnt call MACP,  .. MMA light.    it may not be high level BJJ, but i would like to see you try rolling with knives and taking on a bayonet on the end of a rifle.
> this clip is Marine's not the MACP but notice your MMA fighters failed big time.



Does anyone pass?


----------



## hoshin1600

drop bear said:


> Does anyone pass?


i was just trying to point out to Fried rice that military combat is not a "lessor" version of MMA.  its different, with different goals and objectives.  in part three of that mini series the combat instructor says in MMA there are three outcomes,  win, lose or draw,  but in the military that means  i die, you die , or we both die.  losing is not an option.


----------



## FriedRice

hoshin1600 said:


> still stuck in your own little world i see.   i wouldnt call MACP,  .. MMA light.    it may not be high level BJJ, but i would like to see you try rolling with knives and taking on a bayonet on the end of a rifle.



Wait, you're scared of training with sharp knives? I also have bayonets on my AK-47's, what's the big deal? Just don't get stabbed with them. I live in the suburbs. If I waited for it to rain hard just to roll around in the mud with my AK, the neighbors will call the cops.



> this clip is Marine's not the MACP but notice your MMA fighters failed big time.



So it's obvious that you're ignorant of what you're trying to argue about.  FYI, MCMAP =   Marine Corps Martial Arts Program  

And I guess you don't train with many Marines and other soldiers, if any? Plenty of Marines, Rangers, etc. roll through our 10,000 sq/ft gym to train MMA. If all that they had was training from their military dept, then they're usually about an above average, White belt, nothing special. If we let them spar hard in Muay Thai, they'd get KO'ed by all the low level, amateur fighters with just 1 or 2 fight experience. One Marine almost got dropped by a girl fighter, and she's not even that good.

Now there are Marines who can fight, are those who make MMA and other real combat sports, their thing. They train a lot in the Corp + a lot more, outside. Like Brian Stan, Tim Kennedy, etc.  who rose to the top levels of MMA.  MCMAP is definitely MMA Lite, but nothing wrong with that...why would Marines need to train as hard as MMA fighters for in H2H when they have rifles?

You also failed to realize that The Marine Corp has always been a big $$$ sponsor of the UFC. UFC fighters are not going to go their and whoop them in the endurance exercises. Urijah Faber even said something about how it was pretty easy compared to MMA training (on a Joe Rogan podcast).


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Marine's are not mma fighters nor are most mma fighters marines.  Nor is Marine combat training the same as what mma training is.  It does not surprise me that a marine trained in MCMAP would not be equal to trained mma fighters in the cage.  Likewise mma trained fighters would not be used to marine training in MCMAP they are different with different goals.  Saying MCMAP is mma lite is insulting to marines as well as simply not true.  MMA fighters do not train with weapons, marines do.  As a matter of fact they are rifle marksmen.  Their goals are extremely different as well.  Marines goals as any marine will tell you is to kill the enemy.  That is what their training is for.  That isn't the same goal for an mma fighter in the cage.  *Two very different programs with different goals!*


----------



## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> i was just trying to point out to Fried rice that military combat is not a "lessor" version of MMA.  its different, with different goals and objectives.  in part three of that mini series the combat instructor says in MMA there are three outcomes,  win, lose or draw,  but in the military that means  i die, you die , or we both die.  losing is not an option.



Tell that to a Vietnam vet.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I will give an example in regards to the Army Combatives program.  Regularly I would have Army personnel to roll through my Training Hall back in Michigan.  Invariably they would lose in grappling matches with seasoned IRT practitioner's who had been training for awhile.  However, I have no doubt that they were better with their firearms than most of my students.  Not all but most.  I also have no doubt that when overseas they served very effectively!


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I will give an example in regards to the Army Combatives program.  Regularly I would have Army personnel to roll through my Training Hall back in Michigan.  Invariably they would lose in grappling matches with seasoned IRT practitioner's who had been training for awhile.  However, I have no doubt that they were better with their firearms than most of my students.  Not all but most.  I also have no doubt that when overseas they served very effectively!



Yeah but how much time do you have to make a soldier into a hand to hand combat guy. 

The guy who does part of the close quater combat training for Australia turns out decent fighters in his civilian systems as well.  But you just can't get those results with soldiers in the time frame.


----------



## jks9199

Military combatives, whatever the version, have two basic purposes; 1) help to instill a fighting spirit, and 2) give the military personnel tools when they cannot use their firearms or other weapons.  They aren't designed to make an MMA competition fighter, so it's no surprise that the average soldier* isn't on par with the average MMA participant -- including serious hobbyists -- in the MMA arena.  Just like I wouldn't expect the average MMA participant to handle Close Quarters Battle.  Unarmed skills aren't the primary focus of most soldiers, because they generally don't expect to go hands on with the enemy.  

The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program does use "belts"; it's a ranking system that indicates the amount of time and what training Marines have gone through within the program.  And, like any ranking system, really has no meaning outside its own context.

Police Control Tactics (or Defensive Tactics) have a different purpose, because a police officer will likely go hands on many times more than a soldier.  After all, at some point, the cuffs have to go on -- and that takes going hands on.  They also work with different rules of engagement (in the US, the Constitution, 4th and 8th Amendments especially).  So, once again, the average cop isn't going to excel in the MMA arena... nor is the average MMA fighter going to be able to effect the arrest of a subject as well.  They might well successfully submit them -- but what do you do with the guy once you've got him in a crucifix or some other submission hold?

Note also that we're talking averages.  I know cops who are MMA fighters, soldiers who train BJJ, etc.  Oh, and a fair few cops who train in a various different martial arts, too.

*I know, Marines and Airmen and Sailors aren't soldier, but it's easier than writing all of 'em out or writing military personnel everytime


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

drop bear said:


> Yeah but how much time do you have to make a soldier into a hand to hand combat guy.
> 
> The guy who does part of the close quater combat training for Australia turns out decent fighters in his civilian systems as well.  But you just can't get those results with soldiers in the time frame.



Exactly!  Different goals.


----------



## drop bear

jks9199 said:


> Military combatives, whatever the version, have two basic purposes; 1) help to instill a fighting spirit, and 2) give the military personnel tools when they cannot use their firearms or other weapons.  They aren't designed to make an MMA competition fighter, so it's no surprise that the average soldier* isn't on par with the average MMA participant -- including serious hobbyists -- in the MMA arena.  Just like I wouldn't expect the average MMA participant to handle Close Quarters Battle.  Unarmed skills aren't the primary focus of most soldiers, because they generally don't expect to go hands on with the enemy.
> 
> The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program does use "belts"; it's a ranking system that indicates the amount of time and what training Marines have gone through within the program.  And, like any ranking system, really has no meaning outside its own context.
> 
> Police Control Tactics (or Defensive Tactics) have a different purpose, because a police officer will likely go hands on many times more than a soldier.  After all, at some point, the cuffs have to go on -- and that takes going hands on.  They also work with different rules of engagement (in the US, the Constitution, 4th and 8th Amendments especially).  So, once again, the average cop isn't going to excel in the MMA arena... nor is the average MMA fighter going to be able to effect the arrest of a subject as well.  They might well successfully submit them -- but what do you do with the guy once you've got him in a crucifix or some other submission hold?
> 
> Note also that we're talking averages.  I know cops who are MMA fighters, soldiers who train BJJ, etc.  Oh, and a fair few cops who train in a various different martial arts, too.
> 
> *I know, Marines and Airmen and Sailors aren't soldier, but it's easier than writing all of 'em out or writing military personnel everytime



I dont think specific training has anywhere near that sort of effect. If your system is solid then it shouldn't take that much to rengineer it to suit. 

Wrestling for example can isolate an arm pretty effectively. An isolated arm gives you a hand cuff or an arm lock or a submission. 

Which is my issue with police style defensive stuff is their set up is generally pretty bad.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Exactly!  Different goals.



No.  different constraints. If i only had 1 day a week to train a MMA fighter then he would get a similar treatment to Mc Map.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Well if that mma fighter was training for the cage you would eliminate all weapons/tools training completely which is a focus in MCMAP.  You would instead focus on basics that would help them in the cage.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

drop bear said:


> I dont think specific training has anywhere near that sort of effect. If your system is solid then it shouldn't take that much to rengineer it to suit.
> 
> Wrestling for example can isolate an arm pretty effectively. An isolated arm gives you a hand cuff or an arm lock or a submission.
> 
> Which is my issue with police style defensive stuff is their set up is generally pretty bad.



Jks9199 is right though that police defensive tactics is geared exactly to the needs of law enforcement officers.  It also has to work with the equipment that is utilized and the tactics used as well.


----------



## hoshin1600

I will paraphrase Rory Miller,  "whenever someone talks about the reality of fighting, the first question should be, whose reality? "
Military, civilian, LOE, bouncer, security MMA fighter, all reside within a different reality. Until that is understood, any conversation on combat will be a waste of breath.


----------



## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> I will paraphrase Rory Miller,  "whenever someone talks about the reality of fighting, the first question should be, whose reality? "
> Military, civilian, LOE, bouncer, security MMA fighter, all reside within a different reality. Until that is understood, any conversation on combat will be a waste of breath.



The biggest issue with context is that as an argument it is mostly balls. 

So I do MMA. I turn up to a boxing school and get my face punched in. 

 Now this is not a big issue because at the end of the day I am not a boxer and I also apply other things.  And my focus isn't really boxing anyway.

Balls. 

The better I am at boxing the better I am at MMA it is a skill that being proficient at assists all my other techniques. I am a better kicker if I am a better boxer.  I  even a better grappler if I am a better boxer. 

They all reside within the one reality.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Jks9199 is right though that police defensive tactics is geared exactly to the needs of law enforcement officers.  It also has to work with the equipment that is utilized and the tactics used as well.



Just like a womans self defence course is geared exactly towards the needs of women. 

Unlike a martial art.


----------



## hoshin1600

drop bear said:


> The biggest issue with context is that as an argument it is mostly balls.
> 
> So I do MMA. I turn up to a boxing school and get my face punched in.
> 
> Now this is not a big issue because at the end of the day I am not a boxer and I also apply other things.  And my focus isn't really boxing anyway.
> 
> Balls.
> 
> The better I am at boxing the better I am at MMA it is a skill that being proficient at assists all my other techniques. I am a better kicker if I am a better boxer.  I  even a better grappler if I am a better boxer.
> 
> They all reside within the one reality.


Yes and no.  The problem with your analogy is that your comparing sport to a sport. Those are the same reality to start with.  Being a  better boxer does not make you a better police officer.  Having better firearm range skills doesn't make you a better boxer.
Sometimes there can be an overlap in skill set but they need to be applied in a different way. If LEO had high level BJJ it would be an overlap and a useful skill but he had to apply it to his reality. Using ring style BJJ  has the potential of having your firearm being taken away.


----------



## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> Yes and no.  The problem with your analogy is that your comparing sport to a sport. Those are the same reality to start with.  Being a  better boxer does not make you a better police officer.  Having better firearm range skills doesn't make you a better boxer.
> Sometimes there can be an overlap in skill set but they need to be applied in a different way. If LEO had high level BJJ it would be an overlap and a useful skill but he had to apply it to his reality. Using ring style BJJ  has the potential of having your firearm being taken away.



Yeah mostly balls. Not completely balls There are things you can get away with in a BJJ comp that you are not really going to want to do when you are arresting people.

But they are specifics not generalisations.

Sometimes using ring style BJJ is more appropriate.


----------



## hoshin1600

drop bear said:


> Yeah mostly balls. Not completely balls There are things you can get away with in a BJJ comp that you are not really going to want to do when you are arresting people.
> 
> But they are specifics not generalisations.
> 
> Sometimes using ring style BJJ is more appropriate.



Nice move by the officer. It looks like overkill but we don't know the situation.


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> MCMAP is not mma or like mma.  It encompasses more as it deals with weapons.



Can you explain why much of it looks like low level MMA then?


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Marine's are not mma fighters nor are most mma fighters marines.  Nor is Marine combat training the same as what mma training is.  It does not surprise me that a marine trained in MCMAP would not be equal to trained mma fighters in the cage.  Likewise mma trained fighters would not be used to marine training in MCMAP they are different with different goals.  Saying MCMAP is mma lite is insulting to marines as well as simply not true.  MMA fighters do not train with weapons, marines do.  As a matter of fact they are rifle marksmen.  Their goals are extremely different as well.  Marines goals as any marine will tell you is to kill the enemy.  That is what their training is for.  That isn't the same goal for an mma fighter in the cage.  *Two very different programs with different goals!*



The people who usually say this are usually people who never served in the military and/or never trained to fight MMA. Because the Marines (and other soldiers) who trains at our MMA gyms, they know where they stand....if all they had was training from the military...then they know that they're just White belts and nothing special. Girl Blue Belts submits them most of the time, and certainly will the girl Purples.

You may not like it being labeled as MMA Lite, but that's exactly what it is. If they're "RIFLE MARKSMEN", like you say, then they certainly aren't MMA level fighters. Because it would be crazy to train FULL MMA...risking a ton of injuries.....and having soldiers not being able to perform with back problems, ripped up tendons, concussions, etc.....which are all routine problems with training FULL MMA. And what for, when they've got freakin' M4's with 200+ rounds of ammo on them + grenades + tanks + radio for airstrikes, etc. 

This is why MCMAP is MMA Lite...they only gloss over a few things taken from MMA, for fitness and sport. It only takes like 16 months to become a Marine, which includes Boot Camp. That's a ton of things they need to learn and study up for, not just MCMAP chopsocky, if much of it at all. The ones that gets serious with MCMAP are those who likes it or have MA training beforehand, and wants to earn higher ranks for fun/sport. And it's still pretty low level training.

Rarely would any Marines go H2H, if ever, on the battlefield. They'd be dead most of the time. What would cause them to go H2H? Running out of ammo? Even with their sidearm? Many times, they'd surrender rather than run into a hail of 7.62x39mm for a guaranteed death.


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well if that mma fighter was training for the cage you would eliminate all weapons/tools training completely which is a focus in MCMAP.  You would instead focus on basics that would help them in the cage.



MCMAP does not focus heavily on weapons training. You want me to ask a MCMAP instructor whether this is true or not the next time I see him in our BJJ class? The last thing that a soldier wants is to break his freakin' MAIN WEAPON that's mostly polymer, by using it as a blunt force weapon, LOL.

But If you prefer, I can call MCMAP....MMA Lite + Kali Lite.  Because it's the same deal.... some dude who's  a pencil pusher that trains Kali 3x a week for a few years will destroy a Marine in a padded baton sparring or such. And it just so happens that 1 of the guy who trained at our gym is an instructor for Modern Arnis, or whatever it's called and he's a Veteran too.

Now if you want to tell me that Marines are awesome killing machines with their M4's + high tech weaponry, then absolutely. I myself, train with my AK's and get taught basic tactics by cops and soldiers (when they have time), but yea....I train Combat Lite. Feel better?


----------



## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> Nice move by the officer. It looks like overkill but we don't know the situation.



The situation is that throw works wonderfully in a demo. Bad guy flattens out cooperatively you hold them down with a wrist lock and look super slick handcuffing them.

It covers all the context bases like keeping people away from your belt kit. And you remain standing.

The minor issues of obviously it drops people on their head when it works at all is not really worth worrying about. 

You wouldn't see police doing that in any sort of sparring. It would be too unsafe.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*No Marines are certainly not mma fighters unless they specifically go and train to become mma fighters.*  They are instead riflemen and their martial arts program is designed to aid them on the battlefield.

Here are some quotes taken directly from the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program manual:

"The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program consists of a belt ranking system that begins at Tan Belt and progresses up to 6th Degree Black Belt.  Each belt level consists of specific techniques of the four components of the physical discipline; Rifle & Bayonet, Edged Weapons, Weapons of Opportunity, and Unarmed Combat"

"
Introduction
The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) is designed to improve the warfighting capabilities of individual Marines and units, enhance Marines' self-confidence and esprit de corps, and foster the warrior ethos in the Corps.  The focus will be the personal development of each Marine in a team framework, using a standardized, trainable, and sustainable close combat system. MCMAP is distinctively a weapons based system, integrating combat equipment, physical challenges, and tactics typically found in the combat arena.  The program:
- Is a true Martial Art (battlefield/military oriented, not sport)
- Enhances the view of the Marine Corps as an Elite Fighting Force
- Provides skills for all Marines
- Is applicable throughout the Spectrum of Violence
- Strengthens ethos and morale
- Enhances recruiting and retention
MCMAP is a progressive system, with each successive level improving on and enhancing skill sets learned in the previous level. Furthermore, the individual Marine will continue to advance through the program throughout his career."

*So yeah we can agree that it is not geared towards training Marines for mma.*  No instead MCMAP is a weapons based system geared towards training Marines for combat on the battlefield.  If individual marines wish to be mma fighters then they should go to an mma gym to improve their skills.  *Not mma lite or kali lite.  Instead it is the Marine Corp Martial Arts Program!* 

PS
I have marines and army military personnel training with us all the time.  Several are deployed right now.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Here are some MCMAP marine videos you forgot to show:
















There are so many more but as you can see none of that looks like mma!


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> No Marines are certainly not mma fighters unless they specifically go and train to become mma fighters.  They are instead riflemen and their martial arts program is designed to aid them on the battlefield.
> 
> Here are some quotes taken directly from the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program manual:
> 
> "The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program consists of a belt ranking system that begins at Tan Belt and progresses up to 6th Degree Black Belt.  Each belt level consists of specific techniques of the four components of the physical discipline; Rifle & Bayonet, Edged Weapons, Weapons of Opportunity, and Unarmed Combat"
> 
> "
> Introduction
> The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) is designed to improve the warfighting capabilities of individual Marines and units, enhance Marines' self-confidence and esprit de corps, and foster the warrior ethos in the Corps.  The focus will be the personal development of each Marine in a team framework, using a standardized, trainable, and sustainable close combat system. MCMAP is distinctively a weapons based system, integrating combat equipment, physical challenges, and tactics typically found in the combat arena.  The program:
> - Is a true Martial Art (battlefield/military oriented, not sport)
> - Enhances the view of the Marine Corps as an Elite Fighting Force
> - Provides skills for all Marines
> - Is applicable throughout the Spectrum of Violence
> - Strengthens ethos and morale
> - Enhances recruiting and retention
> MCMAP is a progressive system, with each successive level improving on and enhancing skill sets learned in the previous level. Furthermore, the individual Marine will continue to advance through the program throughout his career."
> 
> So yeah we can agree that it is not geared towards training Marines for mma.  No instead MCMAP is a weapons based system geared towards training Marines for combat on the battlefield.  If individual marines wish to be mma fighters then they should go to an mma gym to improve their skills.



Very similar aims though. Exept for the weapons bit.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

The aims are to be proficient on the battlefield.  Yet, calling the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program anything other than what it actually is and was designed for is pretty patronizing and insulting to those who created it.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Here are some MCMAP marine videos you forgot to show:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are so many more but as you can see none of that looks like mma!



It looks like MMA with weapons. Rules padding. Live testing against resisting opponents.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The aims are to be proficient on the battlefield.  Yet, calling the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program anything other than what it actually is and was designed for is pretty patronizing and insulting to those who created it.



Marines are kind of sensitive though. 

This constant rhetoric of being the best of the best of the best.  May get you over the line in a fight. But it is not exactly accurate.

I mean we learned falure is not an option in Mc Map training but they spar.  Half of those guys are going to fail.  

I have no issue with Mc Map i think it is a good system. But if it was my head on the block i would recognise its limitations and address them.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Yet, it is not mma.  It has different goals, different techniques and a different mindset. 

Now, are some of the same techniques found in mma..... sure.  Yet, that doesn't make it mma or mma lite or kali lite, etc.  It is a very specific martial system designed for the battlefield as you can clearly see from the quoted post in my previous post.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yet, it is not mma.  It has different goals, different techniques and a different mindset.
> 
> Now, are some of the same techniques found in mma..... sure.  Yet, that doesn't make it mma or mma lite or kali lite, etc.  It is a very specific martial system designed for the battlefield as you can clearly see from the quoted post in my previous post.



What are the specific differences?

By the way to prepare soldiers for battle. MMA/Kali light is pretty much exactly on track.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Well for one thing there is a different mind set. 

Here is the Mental Discipline quote from the manual:

"MENTAL DISCIPLINE
The Mental Discipline encompasses the study of the art of war to include professional military education (PME) and the professional reading program, Marine Corps Common Skills Training (MCCS), decision making training, the historical study of war, the tactics and techniques of expeditionary maneuver warfare, risk operational management, force protection, and a study of Marine Corps history, customs, courtesies and traditions.  In order to advance in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program a Marine must meet specific PME requirements as well as show the tactical and technical proficiency required of a basic rifleman.  Each Marine will participate in Martial Culture Studies that will enhance their understanding of being a warrior and part of a warrior society.  These Martial Culture Studies will add to both the Mental and Character Disciplines.
As a warrior our profession is inherently dangerous.  Each Marine will be educated from the beginning of his Marine Corps and martial arts training with the fundamental principle that safety is a key consideration in all that we do on or off duty.  This includes not only individual safety measures but will comprise training leaders in the art of operational risk  management and assessment.
The Mental Discipline will create a smarter Marine, capable of understanding and handling the complexity of modern warfare. It will create a Marine who is tactically and technically competent, and capable of decision making under any condition from combat to liberty.  This training, beginning with the transformation of recruit training will be the foundation of the "strategic corporal" and the future leadership of our Corps."

Here is the Physical Discipline quote from the same manual:

"PHYSICAL DISCIPLINE
The sinew of what every Marine must be prepared to execute; to seek out, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and movement and repel their assault by fire and close combat.  This is how we win the nation's battles and win the three-block war.  The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program is a weapons based system beginning at assault fire, moving to the bayonet, edged weapons, weapons of opportunity and ending, potentially in unarmed combat; unarmed combat having a role across the spectrum of combat.  
Assault Fire Techniques (advanced combat marksmanship techniques are the starting point from which bayonet training flows); this ties-in the battle proven Marine Corps marksmanship program with the Martial Arts Program, creating a synergy between the two. From assault firing the battle is joined with bayonet, edged weapons, weapons of opportunity, and finally unarmed combat.
A key element of the physical discipline is combative conditioning - a program that goes a level beyond our current physical fitness   program.  It combines the physical fitness dividends of combative arts training with those of traditional physical fitness, water survival training, and rough terrain skills training.  It is designed to mitigate the human factors experienced during combat that have a physically debilitating effect on the human body, allow a Marine to fight in any terrain and under any climatic condition, and face the rigors of the dispersed battlefield encountered in modern combat."

You will notice in particular in the physical discipline portion a descending order from the Marine Marksmanship program to MCMAP so that there is a flow to Bayonet to edged weapons, weapons of opportunity and finally at the end unarmed combat.  The training is geared towards and around weapons with empty hand as a last resort.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well for one thing there is a different mind set.
> 
> Here is the Mental Discipline quote from the manual:
> 
> "MENTAL DISCIPLINE
> The Mental Discipline encompasses the study of the art of war to include professional military education (PME) and the professional reading program, Marine Corps Common Skills Training (MCCS), decision making training, the historical study of war, the tactics and techniques of expeditionary maneuver warfare, risk operational management, force protection, and a study of Marine Corps history, customs, courtesies and traditions.  In order to advance in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program a Marine must meet specific PME requirements as well as show the tactical and technical proficiency required of a basic rifleman.  Each Marine will participate in Martial Culture Studies that will enhance their understanding of being a warrior and part of a warrior society.  These Martial Culture Studies will add to both the Mental and Character Disciplines.
> As a warrior our profession is inherently dangerous.  Each Marine will be educated from the beginning of his Marine Corps and martial arts training with the fundamental principle that safety is a key consideration in all that we do on or off duty.  This includes not only individual safety measures but will comprise training leaders in the art of operational risk  management and assessment.
> The Mental Discipline will create a smarter Marine, capable of understanding and handling the complexity of modern warfare. It will create a Marine who is tactically and technically competent, and capable of decision making under any condition from combat to liberty.  This training, beginning with the transformation of recruit training will be the foundation of the "strategic corporal" and the future leadership of our Corps."
> 
> Here is the Physical Discipline quote from the same manual:
> 
> "PHYSICAL DISCIPLINE
> The sinew of what every Marine must be prepared to execute; to seek out, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and movement and repel their assault by fire and close combat.  This is how we win the nation's battles and win the three-block war.  The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program is a weapons based system beginning at assault fire, moving to the bayonet, edged weapons, weapons of opportunity and ending, potentially in unarmed combat; unarmed combat having a role across the spectrum of combat.
> Assault Fire Techniques (advanced combat marksmanship techniques are the starting point from which bayonet training flows); this ties-in the battle proven Marine Corps marksmanship program with the Martial Arts Program, creating a synergy between the two. From assault firing the battle is joined with bayonet, edged weapons, weapons of opportunity, and finally unarmed combat.
> A key element of the physical discipline is combative conditioning - a program that goes a level beyond our current physical fitness   program.  It combines the physical fitness dividends of combative arts training with those of traditional physical fitness, water survival training, and rough terrain skills training.  It is designed to mitigate the human factors experienced during combat that have a physically debilitating effect on the human body, allow a Marine to fight in any terrain and under any climatic condition, and face the rigors of the dispersed battlefield encountered in modern combat."
> 
> You will notice in particular in the physical discipline portion a descending order from the Marine Marksmanship program to MCMAP so that there is a flow to Bayonet to edged weapons, weapons of opportunity and finally at the end unarmed combat.  The training is geared towards and around weapons with empty hand as a last resort.



Ok. So that is the lite portion of MMA lite. Abridged version of hand to hand because they also have tanks. More time for important skills like not getting lost and stuff.

Which is surprisingly enough the mind set MMA has towards martial arts.  In that lets not learn 50 guard passes because at some point we have to learn punching.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Well I agree with everything you said except the lite portion of MMA lite.  MCMAP is not mma as if you read through the quotes you will quickly discover it is a weapons based system with a descending order from the Marine Corps Marksmanship program to MCMAP starting with bayonet training, edge weapon training, weapons of opportunity and then finally unarmed combat.  They aren't training for MMA and their goals aren't designed around being in a cage.  They have very different goals.  Very different mindset because of this.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well I agree with everything you said except the lite portion of MMA lite.  MCMAP is not mma as if you read through the quotes you will quickly discover it is a weapons based system with a descending order from the Marine Corps Marksmanship program to MCMAP starting with bayonet training, edge weapon training, weapons of opportunity and then finally unarmed combat.  They aren't training for MMA and their goals aren't designed around being in a cage.  They have very different goals.  Very different mindset because of this.



What is the difference in mindset? I mean I get the weapons first bit.  But the mindset is a new one. 

And if the mindset is different how does the traing reflect that? 

Because I think I am seeing a lot of development of warrior mindset via sparring.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*Sparring develops a strong mental mindset.*  You and I are in total agreement on that.  However, a Marine or soldiers mindset has to be geared towards completing the mission and dealing with their force continuum up to including killing their opponent if that is what the mission demands.  I too believe that mma fighters that spar or anyone that spars for that matter will develop a strong mental mindset but most are not training to kill but instead to compete.  However, I do believe sparring has a place in any professional warriors training such as military, law enforcement, etc.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Here is some MCMAP instructor training:


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Here is some MCMAP instructor training:



By the way. Nobody does well two on on in the sneaker course.

Here is some of ours we set up for our local rugby team.


----------



## Tez3

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I too believe that mma fighters that spar or anyone that spars for that matter will develop a strong mental mindset but most are not training to kill but instead to compete.



Unless like our students they are doing both.  Most of ours say that training MMA ( or any martial art for that matter) is actually a relaxation for them rather than part of their military training. The fitness training isn't a strain or extra work because they do PT anyway, they like the banter and way martial arts people are, they don't have to 'behave' to fit in. Many civvies find the military 'different', they do appreciate them but they can be scary and the sense of humour differs a lot from civvies. Training and competing in any sport is fun and can take away worries for a while, that's why the Invicta Games and the like are so very important.
The higher ups like martial arts because for once their soldiers are not fighting randomly in pubs and clubs.
I'm sure it does have value for military training but the biggest part of it is the relaxation and sports aspect for the soldiers, which may be a bit hard for civvies to understand that sparring etc as that! I'm sure a medic could explain all about endorphins etc. I'm not much up on that stuff.


----------



## oftheherd1

Haven't been keeping up on this thread, but I think on this side of the pond, MA are not as important to soldiers except for some elite special type units that are more likely to engage in close combat.  That from an overall combat perspective.  However, I think MA are an enhancement to any fighting force, from the fighting spirit and confidence they should be learning.  Greater skill in close combat when necessary is an added value.


----------



## oftheherd1

FriedRice said:


> The people who usually say this are usually people who never served in the military and/or never trained to fight MMA. Because the Marines (and other soldiers) who trains at our MMA gyms, they know where they stand....if all they had was training from the military...then they know that they're just White belts and nothing special. Girl Blue Belts submits them most of the time, and certainly will the girl Purples.
> 
> You may not like it being labeled as MMA Lite, but that's exactly what it is. If they're "RIFLE MARKSMEN", like you say, then they certainly aren't MMA level fighters. Because it would be crazy to train FULL MMA...risking a ton of injuries.....and having soldiers not being able to perform with back problems, ripped up tendons, concussions, etc.....which are all routine problems with training FULL MMA. And what for, when they've got freakin' M4's with 200+ rounds of ammo on them + grenades + tanks + radio for airstrikes, etc.
> 
> This is why MCMAP is MMA Lite...they only gloss over a few things taken from MMA, for fitness and sport. It only takes like 16 months to become a Marine, which includes Boot Camp. That's a ton of things they need to learn and study up for, not just MCMAP chopsocky, if much of it at all. The ones that gets serious with MCMAP are those who likes it or have MA training beforehand, and wants to earn higher ranks for fun/sport. And it's still pretty low level training.
> 
> Rarely would any Marines go H2H, if ever, on the battlefield. They'd be dead most of the time. What would cause them to go H2H? Running out of ammo? Even with their sidearm? Many times, they'd surrender rather than run into a hail of 7.62x39mm for a guaranteed death.



How little you know.


----------



## Tez3

Martial arts in the military here are sports, for fun. CQB is for business. What the RM Commandos, Paras, etc do isn't classed here as' martial arts'. Bayonet training is still carried out here, many soldiers are trained Close Protection people as well. Military training here takes longer than most countries, soldiers are trained up to the level of a couple of ranks above their own right from recruit and covers everything that martial arts would anyway. The regimental system here also ensures that fighting spirit and confidence are abundant. Besides most of our soldiers learn to fight long before they join up, ask the police


----------



## oftheherd1

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yet, it is not mma.  It has different goals, different techniques and a different mindset.
> 
> Now, are some of the same techniques found in mma..... sure.  Yet, that doesn't make it mma or mma lite or kali lite, etc.  It is a very specific martial system designed for the battlefield as you can clearly see from the quoted post in my previous post.



You are correct.

After my last post, I decided to read a little further.  As is often the case, people tend to only see from their MA perspective.  That is understandable.  Why would someone study an MA they didn't believe in?  However, one is best served by knowing disadvantages of their system, and advantages of others.  Fewer surprises that way.

But I must admit, I am surprised at those who cannot understand that different fighting/combat objectives will often dictate the teaching and practice of different skills.  I sometimes wonder if some who are most adamant about the taught military combat skills being inadequate, don't even believe what they say.  If they do, they are incredibly narrowly focused.

As to Drop Bear's "This constant rhetoric of being the best of the best of the best. May get you over the line in a fight. But it is not exactly accurate." comment, perhaps being engaged in training for life or death struggles is different.  Perhaps?  No.  Most of us here trained a martial art because we wanted to.  How many have we seen begin and then quit.  In the military you don't normally have that option.  So it may be necessary to keep bolstering a combat person's confidence.  And the Marine Corps from all I have seen, does just that. 

Many of you here no doubt do have that confidence in yourself.  You do accept being hurt from time to time.  If your MA has a sparring component, you do not expect death to be a common part of that.  Combat arms face that always.

Drop Bear, in my opinion, your comment "I mean we learned falure is not an option in Mc Map training but they spar. Half of those guys are going to fail." although a clever turn of phrase, is frankly contemptible.  What experience do you have that qualifies you to make judgement on training of military combat arms?

And Drop Bear, although you said "I have no issue with Mc Map i think it is a good system. But if it was my head on the block i would recognise its limitations and address them." as I said, all martial arts have advantages and weaknesses.  And the Marine Corps initiation of MCMAP is intended to be an improvement over past methods of training.  But of course, you wouldn't know that.

I hope I am not being too strong with Drop Bear.  It is not my intent.  But I simply believe he does not really understand, and I would only seek to clarify things he may not know or understand.  Others also.


----------



## FriedRice

oftheherd1 said:


> How little you know.



How little your argument is, or lack thereof.


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *So yeah we can agree that it is not geared towards training Marines for mma.*  No instead MCMAP is a weapons based system geared towards training Marines for combat on the battlefield.  If individual marines wish to be mma fighters then they should go to an mma gym to improve their skills.  *Not mma lite or kali lite.  Instead it is the Marine Corp Martial Arts Program!*
> 
> PS
> I have marines and army military personnel training with us all the time.  Several are deployed right now.



Sounds exactly like MMA Lite, if it's taking most of it's techniques from MMA but not using them at full power.  And same goes for the weaponry. A guy who works at Safeway that trains Kali 3x a week for a year, will greatly exceeds the skills of a 1 year Marine when it comes to knife, stick fighting, etc.  Thus, Kali Lite. It seems that you're taking this personally somehow, but you're not a Marine though right?


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Here are some MCMAP marine videos you forgot to show:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are so many more but as you can see none of that looks like mma!



Yea, it looks like Kali Lite, which was what I later said....MMA Lite + Kali Lite.


----------



## oftheherd1

FriedRice said:


> How little your argument is, or lack thereof.



Well, actually, I think you made all the arguments necessary


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> from the Marine Corps Marksmanship program to MCMAP starting with bayonet training,  .



Hey, can you tell me which rifle, issued to a Marine, would a bayonet attach to?  I'll wait while you Google profusely


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I too believe that mma fighters that spar or anyone that spars for that matter will develop a strong mental mindset but most are not training to kill but instead to compete.   .



So when a Marine is on the battlefield vs. an ISIS fighter.....both are unarmed, no knives, no rocks around, nothing....they're both facing each other, standing up....how would such a fight to the death usually start if they're 3 feet away from each other?


----------



## FriedRice

oftheherd1 said:


> Well, actually, I think you made all the arguments necessary



Thanks bro, I accept your surrender.


----------



## oftheherd1

oftheherd1 said:


> Well, actually, I think you made all the arguments necessary





FriedRice said:


> Hey, can you tell me which rifle, issued to a Marine, would a bayonet attach to?  I'll wait while you Google profusely



does an m16 use a bayonet - Bing

Just thought I would save Mr. VanCise, and apparently you, the trouble.


----------



## hoshin1600

FriedRice said:


> So when a Marine is on the battlefield vs. an ISIS fighter.....both are unarmed, no knives, no rocks around, nothing....they're both facing each other, standing up....how would such a fight to the death usually start if they're 3 feet away from each other?


well it aint gonna look like an MMA ring fight.


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> So when a Marine is on the battlefield vs. an ISIS fighter.....both are unarmed, no knives, no rocks around, nothing....they're both facing each other, standing up....how would such a fight to the death usually start if they're 3 feet away from each other?




The Marine would stand a lot further back and then dive to the ground. That's because he used his intelligence, called for back up and an Apache helicopter is about to fire on the Daesh fighter, obliterating him into dust. The Marine stands up, brushes himself down and smiles, because he fights smart. 
If you are going to talk nonsense try and remember that a Marine ( British or American) would not be on his own, his oppos are there for him.

Of course if they were British Royal Marines they are likely to be hanging onto the Apache because they don't leave anyone behind as I believe American Marines don't.
BBC NEWS | UK | Helicopter rescue bid for Marine


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> The Marine would stand a lot further back and then dive to the ground. That's because he used his intelligence, called for back up and an Apache helicopter is about to fire on the Daesh fighter, obliterating him into dust. The Marine stands up, brushes himself down and smiles, because he fights smart.
> If you are going to talk nonsense try and remember that a Marine ( British or American) would not be on his own, his oppos are there for him.
> 
> Of course if they were British Royal Marines they are likely to be hanging onto the Apache because they don't leave anyone behind as I believe American Marines don't.
> BBC NEWS | UK | Helicopter rescue bid for Marine



Dodging again?


----------



## FriedRice

hoshin1600 said:


> well it aint gonna look like an MMA ring fight.



What does it look like then?


----------



## hoshin1600

FriedRice said:


> What does it look like then?


well a one on one with no weapons is pure fiction fantasy but ill entertain the idea.  it would start with the marine running at the other guy full bore and crashing into him like a linebacker.


----------



## lklawson

Nobody Important said:


> Agreed, I was Army, have a lot of Marine friends. Army Combatives and Marine Corp Martial Arts are two entirely different beasts. Combatives didn't exist when I was active. Some of my buddies, who are old timers and still in, had me come back to train different units in CQC, because they didn't care for Combatives, wanting something closer to MCMAP in practicality.


"Combatives" have always existed in the U.S. Army.  There are training manuals for the Army for "melee" style weapons going back to the Revolutionary War.  Fencing and Bayonet manuals were particularly important and stickfighting and barehanded techniques were documented and taught.

Of particular interest is the Judo and Boxing taught to recruits during WWI.  Movie clips are easily found.

"Combatives" were also particularly important in WWII.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> Dodging again?



Dodging what? As you may have noticed I'm not American and know nothing about MCCAP. I do know an awful lot about our military though, I suspect you know sweet FA about any mans army and just like trying to get people to bite, that just makes you a bone.


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> Dodging what? As you may have noticed I'm not American and know nothing about MCCAP. I do know an awful lot about our military though, I suspect you know sweet FA about any mans army and just like trying to get people to bite, that just makes you a bone.



so what rank was this guy:


----------



## FriedRice

hoshin1600 said:


> well a one on one with no weapons is pure fiction fantasy but ill entertain the idea.  it would start with the marine running at the other guy full bore and crashing into him like a linebacker.



Thanks. Sounds like MMA.


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> so what rank was this guy:



You aren't very original are you, same old, same old. My assessment of his rank is that it's the same as yours ie cockwomble.


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> You aren't very original are you, same old, same old. My assessment of his rank is that it's the same as yours ie cockwomble.



You don't like? And show me who else made this joke?


----------



## Nobody Important

lklawson said:


> "Combatives" have always existed in the U.S. Army.  There are training manuals for the Army for "melee" style weapons going back to the Revolutionary War.  Fencing and Bayonet manuals were particularly important and stickfighting and barehanded techniques were documented and taught.
> 
> Of particular interest is the Judo and Boxing taught to recruits during WWI.  Movie clips are easily found.
> 
> "Combatives" were also particularly important in WWII.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


True, but the modern combatives created by Lawson replaced them. That is what I was speaking to. It was not in existence when I served.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

FriedRice said:


> Sounds exactly like MMA Lite, if it's taking most of it's techniques from MMA but not using them at full power.  And same goes for the weaponry. A guy who works at Safeway that trains Kali 3x a week for a year, will greatly exceeds the skills of a 1 year Marine when it comes to knife, stick fighting, etc.  Thus, Kali Lite. It seems that you're taking this personally somehow, but you're not a Marine though right?



Once again different goals and a different time frame to teach soldiers compared to someone training weekly year round.



FriedRice said:


> Yea, it looks like Kali Lite, which was what I later said....MMA Lite + Kali Lite.



Once again you are insulting every marine and the marine instructors that came up with MCMAP.  It is MCMAP and that is a unique martial system for the United States Marines.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

FriedRice said:


> Sounds exactly like MMA Lite, if it's taking most of it's techniques from MMA but not using them at full power.  And same goes for the weaponry.



I wouldn't categorize MCMAP as taking all of its techniques from mma.  The instructors that came together looked at various martial systems and incorporated techniques from them not just mma.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

FriedRice said:


> It seems that you're taking this personally?



Really, I just think you have very little clue with what you are talking about so I am trying to correct your misinformation during the course of this thread.


----------



## drop bear

oftheherd1 said:


> You are correct.
> 
> After my last post, I decided to read a little further.  As is often the case, people tend to only see from their MA perspective.  That is understandable.  Why would someone study an MA they didn't believe in?  However, one is best served by knowing disadvantages of their system, and advantages of others.  Fewer surprises that way.
> 
> But I must admit, I am surprised at those who cannot understand that different fighting/combat objectives will often dictate the teaching and practice of different skills.  I sometimes wonder if some who are most adamant about the taught military combat skills being inadequate, don't even believe what they say.  If they do, they are incredibly narrowly focused.
> 
> As to Drop Bear's "This constant rhetoric of being the best of the best of the best. May get you over the line in a fight. But it is not exactly accurate." comment, perhaps being engaged in training for life or death struggles is different.  Perhaps?  No.  Most of us here trained a martial art because we wanted to.  How many have we seen begin and then quit.  In the military you don't normally have that option.  So it may be necessary to keep bolstering a combat person's confidence.  And the Marine Corps from all I have seen, does just that.
> 
> Many of you here no doubt do have that confidence in yourself.  You do accept being hurt from time to time.  If your MA has a sparring component, you do not expect death to be a common part of that.  Combat arms face that always.
> 
> Drop Bear, in my opinion, your comment "I mean we learned falure is not an option in Mc Map training but they spar. Half of those guys are going to fail." although a clever turn of phrase, is frankly contemptible.  What experience do you have that qualifies you to make judgement on training of military combat arms?
> 
> And Drop Bear, although you said "I have no issue with Mc Map i think it is a good system. But if it was my head on the block i would recognise its limitations and address them." as I said, all martial arts have advantages and weaknesses.  And the Marine Corps initiation of MCMAP is intended to be an improvement over past methods of training.  But of course, you wouldn't know that.
> 
> I hope I am not being too strong with Drop Bear.  It is not my intent.  But I simply believe he does not really understand, and I would only seek to clarify things he may not know or understand.  Others also.



Who am I to judge god?

You went there?

When I see Mc Map training contain something that I havent done I will believe there is a secret sauce. Untill then I will call it like I see it. If you have an issue with my statement. You can adress that.

A big problem with your mindset is you are going to have marines that have done Mc Map who will tell you its awesome and everbody else.

Then if everybody who hasnt killed a guy with McMap in a war cannot comment you create this tragic mistique of isolation. Isolation doesnt help a system.

We do of course have access to the opinions of guys who have done the system.
MCMAP training not good? [Archive]  - Marine Corps - USMC Community


----------



## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> well it aint gonna look like an MMA ring fight.



Well we have acces to someone who did hand to hand with an enemy soldier in war time.






Interesting about where he got his mindset.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I wouldn't categorize MCMAP as taking all of its techniques from mma.  The instructors that came together looked at various martial systems and incorporated techniques from them not just mma.



That is a hard category to pin down though. As MMA is not one single beast.

There is definitely an MMA vibe to the training. With the resisted training and the focus on these solid basics. Even the weapons with its sparring base is very MMA.

When I did combatives it was very krav. Compiant drills. Super deadly ninja chops to stationary oponants. It is getting a revamp at the moment.


----------



## hoshin1600

drop bear said:


> When I see Mc Map training contain something that I havent done I will believe there is a secret sauce. Untill then I will call it like I see it. If you have an issue with my statement. You can adress that.


 exactly my sentiment as well.   show me something that is in MMA that you cant find in a TMA system.  there is nothing new under the sun. man has been involved in combat for thousands of years.


----------



## oftheherd1

drop bear said:


> Who am I to judge god?
> 
> You went there?
> 
> When I see Mc Map training contain something that I havent done I will believe there is a secret sauce. Untill then I will call it like I see it. If you have an issue with my statement. You can adress that.
> 
> A big problem with your mindset is you are going to have marines that have done Mc Map who will tell you its awesome and everbody else.
> 
> Then if everybody who hasnt killed a guy with McMap in a war cannot comment you create this tragic mistique of isolation. Isolation doesnt help a system.
> 
> We do of course have access to the opinions of guys who have done the system.
> MCMAP training not good? [Archive]  - Marine Corps - USMC Community



I may have a problem, but I can't make any sense of any of that.  But it probably doesn't make any difference.


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Once again different goals and a different time frame to teach soldiers compared to someone training weekly year round.



Yea, the goal is to take the light version of MMA (and probably Kali) to train the soldiers with so they don't get hurt and can't perform as soldiers in combat.



> Once again you are insulting every marine and the marine instructors that came up with MCMAP.  It is MCMAP and that is a unique martial system for the United States Marines.



I don't think so. Did you serve in the military?


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I wouldn't categorize MCMAP as taking all of its techniques from mma.  The instructors that came together looked at various martial systems and incorporated techniques from them not just mma.



What do you think MMA is?


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Really, I just think you have very little clue with what you are talking about so I am trying to correct your misinformation during the course of this thread.



I train with many Marines and other soldiers. Our gym has over 300 students,  on the books and current. How about yours?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Yes Fried Rice I have many former and current military members that I teach as well.  Several currently being deployed overseas.  That my friend is what is called "dick measuring" and really is unimportant to this thread.

What is important is that there is accurate information being put out there which is what you are not doing here.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

FriedRice said:


> Did you serve in the military?



I don't see where that is relevant to your misinformation here but I am former sworn officer of the law.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Here is a military review article from 2004 outline MCMAP:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/milreview/yi.pdf

There are a lot so I can produce many more stating the same things.  Note no mma talk or kali lite, etc.


----------



## drop bear

oftheherd1 said:


> I may have a problem, but I can't make any sense of any of that.  But it probably doesn't make any difference.



Simply put it doesn't help to let a martial art exist in a vacuum.


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> Did you serve in the military?



Yes





FriedRice said:


> I train with many Marines and other soldiers. Our gym has over 300 students, on the books and current. How about yours?




Ours is a military club, based in a barracks.


----------



## oftheherd1

FriedRice said:


> Yea, the goal is to take the light version of MMA (and probably Kali) to train the soldiers with so they don't get hurt and can't perform as soldiers in combat.
> 
> *So since USA combat arms have been taught to fight and survive one-on-one since Revolutionary War times, and you say they are using MMA techniques, ... Well, what are you saying?*
> 
> I don't think so. Did you serve in the military?



I'm not sure what you intend to do with an answer to whether or not someone else has served in the military, since nothing you have said indicates you have.

But for what it is worth, I served in the military.



drop bear said:


> Simply put it doesn't help to let a martial art exist in a vacuum.



I'm really sorry, I am just not making any sense from your last two answers to me.  Nor do I see in them any contrition for dissing a martial art different from your own.  Maybe we should just not pay any attention to each other anymore.  It doesn't seem to be a fruitful exchange of ideas.

@FriedRice - it seems the same with you.  you have your ideas and in the end, they are yours as makes you happy.  I have mine and based on experiences you don't have.  But we aren't communicating.


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I don't see where that is relevant to your misinformation here but I am former sworn officer of the law.



So I guess, no.  If you asked me if I was ever in the Boy's Scout, I wouldn't answer that I was on the Hockey Team....irrelevant. And sworn officer of the law can range anywhere from Police Academy trained for big city police force to a deputy in Mayberry, USA.  Like DropBear said, something like...."Marines seems to be very sensitive". Well here, you're not a Marine but you're being sensitive for them? We don't coddle people at our gym, we give them the truth; and the truth comes out during sparring where you can't hide from it.


----------



## FriedRice

oftheherd1 said:


> I'm not sure what you intend to do with an answer to whether or not someone else has served in the military, since nothing you have said indicates you have.
> 
> But for what it is worth, I served in the military.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really sorry, I am just not making any sense from your last two answers to me.  Nor do I see in them any contrition for dissing a martial art different from your own.  Maybe we should just not pay any attention to each other anymore.  It doesn't seem to be a fruitful exchange of ideas.
> 
> @FriedRice - it seems the same with you.  you have your ideas and in the end, they are yours as makes you happy.  I have mine and based on experiences you don't have.  But we aren't communicating.



I wasn't even talking to you, yet you chose to interject yourself into my conversation with someone else; then you say "Maybe we should just not pay any attention to each other anymore."?

I was already doing this.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

FriedRice said:


> So I guess, no.  If you asked me if I was ever in the Boy's Scout, I wouldn't answer that I was on the Hockey Team....irrelevant. And sworn officer of the law can range anywhere from Police Academy trained for big city police force to a deputy in Mayberry, USA.  Like DropBear said, something like...."Marines seems to be very sensitive". Well here, you're not a Marine but you're being sensitive for them? We don't coddle people at our gym, we give them the truth; and the truth comes out during sparring where you can't hide from it.



That you are a part of an mma gym has nothing to do with MCMAP. 

In regards to MCMAP I am not being sensitive just trying to put out the correct information regarding what it is that counters information that is clearly false.


----------



## Steve

A little late to the game, but my opinion is that MCMAP is not MMA.  MMA at this point is a well defined rule set.  It's a sport and when you say MMA, it means something pretty specific to most people.  MCMAP is not the same thing. 

I'm not at all surprised to hear that Marines are less skilled in MMA than someone who trains in MMA.  But, like other people who are fit, athletic and have a killer work ethic (pun intended... cause marines!), I think any marine would excel in MMA if they chose to devote the time to it. 

And some do, as you know, @FriedRice. 

Beyond that, I'm not quite sure what all the fuss is about.  I skimmed through the entire thread and if calling MCMAP MMA-lite is the extent of denigrating Marines, I think that's pretty mild.  Bill's comment about the USAF was more harsh, but I know it was meant in jest, and didn't see it as any kind of big deal at all.


----------



## lklawson

Just for shiggles:

Kirk Lawson's Books and Publications Spotlight






"As a student at the University of Illinois, 'Barney' Cosneck won two Big Ten wrestling championships. Later he served as Judo instructor in the armed forces, where he co-authored 'How to Fight Tough' with Jack Dempsey. In 'American Combat Judo' he has adapted the best of Japanese ju jitsu, French foot fighting, Chinese boxing and American wrestling to produce simple but effective techniques for defense and counterattack."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## oftheherd1

Steve said:


> A little late to the game, but my opinion is that MCMAP is not MMA.  MMA at this point is a well defined rule set.  It's a sport and when you say MMA, it means something pretty specific to most people.  MCMAP is not the same thing.
> 
> I'm not at all surprised to hear that Marines are less skilled in MMA than someone who trains in MMA.  But, like other people who are fit, athletic and have a killer work ethic (pun intended... cause marines!), I think any marine would excel in MMA if they chose to devote the time to it.
> 
> And some do, as you know, @FriedRice.
> 
> Beyond that, I'm not quite sure what all the fuss is about.  I skimmed through the entire thread and if calling MCMAP MMA-lite is the extent of denigrating Marines, I think that's pretty mild.  Bill's comment about the USAF was more harsh, but I know it was meant in jest, and didn't see it as any kind of big deal at all.



Nice comment Steve.  Thanks.

But I did feel there was a comment that went just a little over the line about MCMAP, so I'm not so sure the reference to Bill is a good one.  Although perhaps a little strong, he made sure it was known it was intended as kidding.  And I think it was your response after that, about the airman questioning a tent in his room, that gave me a good laugh.


----------



## Steve

oftheherd1 said:


> Nice comment Steve.  Thanks.
> 
> But I did feel there was a comment that went just a little over the line about MCMAP, so I'm not so sure the reference to Bill is a good one.  Although perhaps a little strong, he made sure it was known it was intended as kidding.  And I think it was your response after that, about the airman questioning a tent in his room, that gave me a good laugh.


No problem.  I only intended to say that MCMAP isn't representative of all Marines.  It's a small part of what they do, and in the right context, we can all have a good laugh about weird things that occur within each branch of service.  I could tell you stories!!!

Bottom line, I did not intend my comment as a criticism of Bill.  I think his comments were perfectly fine.


----------



## oftheherd1

Steve said:


> No problem.  I only intended to say that MCMAP isn't representative of all Marines.  It's a small part of what they do, and in the right context, we can all have a good laugh about weird things that occur within each branch of service.  I could tell you stories!!!
> 
> *Bottom line, I did not intend my comment as a criticism of Bill.  I think his comments were perfectly fine*.



I thought you did.  I didn't understand it any other way.


----------



## drop bear

oftheherd1 said:


> I'm really sorry, I am just not making any sense from your last two answers to me. Nor do I see in them any contrition for dissing a martial art different from your own. Maybe we should just not pay any attention to each other anymore. It doesn't seem to be a fruitful exchange of ideas.



Why does it constantly sound like I am discussing a religion. Not a martial art with you?


----------



## FriedRice

Steve said:


> A little late to the game, but my opinion is that MCMAP is not MMA.  MMA at this point is a well defined rule set.  It's a sport and when you say MMA, it means something pretty specific to most people.  MCMAP is not the same thing.
> 
> I'm not at all surprised to hear that Marines are less skilled in MMA than someone who trains in MMA.  But, like other people who are fit, athletic and have a killer work ethic (pun intended... cause marines!), I think any marine would excel in MMA if they chose to devote the time to it.
> 
> And some do, as you know, @FriedRice.
> 
> Beyond that, I'm not quite sure what all the fuss is about.  I skimmed through the entire thread and if calling MCMAP MMA-lite is the extent of denigrating Marines, I think that's pretty mild.  Bill's comment about the USAF was more harsh, but I know it was meant in jest, and didn't see it as any kind of big deal at all.




In general, it takes around 16 months to become a Marine. They've even lowered the standards in order to recruit more women. What makes the Marines a top tier killing force, are the high tech weapons, including the bombs and missiles that they can call in. Not what they learn in that 16 months, which includes a slew of things, such as classroom training. MCMAP, is just for keeping up with some aggression, fitness and fun. That's why I say it's MMA Lite b/c they train very similar to MMA but stay away from most (to all) of the blunt force brutality of full MMA training & sparring.

The other guy was talking about Marines training with bayonets and rolling in the mud with them. Great, he got that from watch Full Metal Jacket.


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> That you are a part of an mma gym has nothing to do with MCMAP.
> 
> In regards to MCMAP I am not being sensitive just trying to put out the correct information regarding what it is that counters information that is clearly false.



You still haven't told me what rifle do the Marines attach their bayonets to in reference to your comment about how Marines roll around in the mud with bayonets as apart of their training.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

FriedRice said:


> You still haven't told me what rifle do the Marines attach their bayonets to in reference to your comment about how Marines roll around in the mud with bayonets as apart of their training.



FriedRice it is very typical of someone like yourself to try and drive a thread in a certain direction.  In this thread I post what the MCMAP really is in response to your fantasy of mma lite/kali lite.  You don't get to question me or drive the thread in a direction of your choice.  Sorry...

If you need to know the answer though google fu.  It really is not that hard!


----------



## oftheherd1

Brian R. VanCise said:


> FriedRice it is very typical of someone like yourself to try and drive a thread in a certain direction.  In this thread I post what the MCMAP really is in response to your fantasy of mma lite/kali lite.  You don't get to question me or drive the thread in a direction of your choice.  Sorry...
> 
> If you need to know the answer though google fu.  *It really is not that hard!*



It sure wasn't. 

But I suspect he read my post, and maybe even knew already.  He probably has some cleverly devious trap set for you.


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> FriedRice it is very typical of someone like yourself to try and drive a thread in a certain direction.  In this thread I post what the MCMAP really is in response to your fantasy of mma lite/kali lite.  You don't get to question me or drive the thread in a direction of your choice.  Sorry...
> 
> If you need to know the answer though google fu.  It really is not that hard!



  I was merely pointing out that you're wrong about with your comment about Marines rolling around in the mud with bayonets. That's just something out of Full Metal Jacket.


----------



## FriedRice

And I'm not trying to disparage the Marines, but I'm not going to walk on eggshells around them neither...and especially not worship people in uniform.  I tell it like it is. And I don't give people free respect.

Maybe that's why when new Marines and/or other soldiers who comes into MMA gyms, they often don't mention that they're soldiers or some even hide it (especially when they have no other MA training other than the average MCMAP training).  Because wide glassy eyed teenage boys all over the place, seem to expect them to be H2H, superhero, fighting machines or something and they now  are indirectly obligated to keep up with such falsities. Or also, they will also get targeted by girl Blue Belts and up, so they can say that they made a Marine tap, repeatedly.

Yes, we know that what makes Marines dangerous, are their rifles and  tons of state of the art support and weaponry.  I mean, some 50 yr old grandma with a shotgun will probably beat every unarmed UFC Champion in a fight to the death, what's the point?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*True, I would take the grandma with the shotgun who knows how to use it every day.*  That is some thing that any martial practitioner should realize in that weapons/tools rule the day in violent encounters. The United States Marines are riflemen first and foremost.  MCMAP then fills the needs from Bayonet, to Edged Weapons and finally to the last resort of empty hands on the battlefield.  MCMAP was developed after extensive study and research and coordination with many long time martial practitioners and marines to come up with a system that would complement the marine corps goals.  In that regard it is very effective for what they need.  It is not cage fighting, mma lite, kali lite or anything else.  Instead it is the Marine Corpse Martial Arts Program that is designed for the battlefield!


----------



## Steve

I think you are both right, and reframe what the other person says just enough to avoid acknowledging the other person's good points.

Marines aren't, by virtue of their MCMAP training, hand to hand experts.  AND MCMAP integrates perfectly into USMC training, filling a much needed gap. 

I truly don't know where the conflict is, but what each of you says doesn't seem to contradict the other in any way.


----------



## oftheherd1

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *True, I would take the grandma with the shotgun who knows how to use it every day.*  That is some thing that any martial practitioner should realize in that weapons/tools rule the day in violent encounters. The United States Marines are riflemen first and foremost.  MCMAP then fills the needs from Bayonet, to Edged Weapons and finally to the last resort of empty hands on the battlefield.  MCMAP was developed after extensive study and research and coordination with many long time martial practitioners and marines to come up with a system that would complement the marine corps goals.  In that regard it is very effective for what they need.  It is not cage fighting, mma lite, kali lite or anything else.  Instead it is the Marine Corpse Martial Arts Program that is designed for the battlefield!



Yep, that is pretty much the crux of it.  A system designed to as often as needed, keep Marines alive and kill or maim enemy.  No rules but to kill enemy and to survive while doing it.  The more rules put on it as in a cage, the less effective it will be.


----------



## drop bear

oftheherd1 said:


> Yep, that is pretty much the crux of it.  A system designed to as often as needed, keep Marines alive and kill or maim enemy.  No rules but to kill enemy and to survive while doing it.  The more rules put on it as in a cage, the less effective it will be.



You think there are no rules in Mc Map training?

There are rules for shaving in the army.


----------



## Steve

What's really funny is I am going through some old documents and ran across an ACTUAL 341 from when I was in basic training at Lackland AFB.  Any old USAF guys remember those?

Brought back all the rules about folding tshirts and underwear and organizing my drawers.


----------



## kuniggety

Steve said:


> What's really funny is I am going through some old documents and ran across an ACTUAL 341 from when I was in basic training at Lackland AFB.  Any old USAF guys remember those?
> 
> Brought back all the rules about folding tshirts and underwear and organizing my drawers.



Kill it. Kill it with fire.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> What's really funny is I am going through some old documents and ran across an ACTUAL 341 from when I was in basic training at Lackland AFB.  Any old USAF guys remember those?
> 
> Brought back all the rules about folding tshirts and underwear and organizing my drawers.



Yeah.  We had the same.


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *True, I would take the grandma with the shotgun who knows how to use it every day.*  That is some thing that any martial practitioner should realize in that weapons/tools rule the day in violent encounters. The United States Marines are riflemen first and foremost.  MCMAP then fills the needs from Bayonet, to Edged Weapons and finally to the last resort of empty hands on the battlefield.  MCMAP was developed after extensive study and research and coordination with many long time martial practitioners and marines to come up with a system that would complement the marine corps goals.  In that regard it is very effective for what they need.  It is not cage fighting, mma lite, kali lite or anything else.  Instead it is the Marine Corpse Martial Arts Program that is designed for the battlefield!



I just call what MCMAP really is because it's designed mostly to keep the soldiers in shape...with a certain level of   aggression maintained, but not enough to cause injuries...and provide fitness & fun.  The bayonet drills + edged weapon are not very impressive by Kali standards nor is the H2H to full MMA. Bayonets are rarely, if ever deployed b/c there are more chances of stabbing your fellow soldiers.

So what's Tae Bo? Not Kickboxing Lite?


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> Bayonets are rarely, if ever deployed b/c there are more chances of stabbing your fellow soldiers.



BBC NEWS | UK | Military cross for bayonet charge
Soldier who led Afghanistan bayonet charge into hail of bullets honoured
Bayonet-Taliban charge marine wins medal


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Tae Bo is an exercise routine.  Not a thing to do with kickboxing. 

The commander's that created MCMAP went through a lot of research and had many contributions from marines from many disciplines.   MCMAP is not Kali, not mma but distinctly a martial system for modern marines on the battlefield.  You see MCMAP is not about cage fighting or anything else but designed exactly to give skill sets to our soldiers so that they can be effective on the battlefield.


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> BBC NEWS | UK | Military cross for bayonet charge
> Soldier who led Afghanistan bayonet charge into hail of bullets honoured
> Bayonet-Taliban charge marine wins medal



that happens a lot.


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Tae Bo is an exercise routine.  Not a thing to do with kickboxing.
> 
> The commander's that created MCMAP went through a lot of research and had many contributions from marines from many disciplines.   MCMAP is not Kali, not mma but distinctly a martial system for modern marines on the battlefield.  You see MCMAP is not about cage fighting or anything else but designed exactly to give skill sets to our soldiers so that they can be effective on the battlefield.



Tae Bo uses many Kickboxing techniques. Are you saying that they don't?

And why aren't they striking to the head in MCMAP?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Actually Billy Blanks who founded Tae Bo was a Tae Kwon Do and American free style point champion.  Just because some of the moves look like kickboxing they are not necessarily.


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> that happens a lot.



for something that you said doesn't happen.  There's this too Gurkha fought off Afghan insurgent in hand-to-hand combat


----------



## Buka

In 1985 Billy Blanks called me and said, " I have an idea how to get more people to exercise. By using karate techniques and music, so it will be fun." I said, "Okay......"

He coined the term "Karobics" He asked me if I knew an Aerobics instructor because he wanted one instead of a Martial Arts instructor. I asked "Why?" He said, "A karate guy will teach like he teaches Karate. I want someone who will teach it like Aerobics, teach it like exercise." I called my friend, Michelle, a local aerobics instructor. Her, me and Billy met in my dojo and for two weeks Billy worked with her on how he thought it should be taught. We then implemented the first Karobics class, in my dojo, in Boston. We had class on Monday, Wednesday and Fridays at 11 in the morning. There wasn't much success. There were a handful of housewifes, some of my students from an earlier morning class and some of Billy's guys. The class lasted a little over a year before we cancelled it for lack of interest.

THEN.....Billy relocates to L.A somewhere around 1988. He had a tough go of it. Married with two kids, he struggled to make ends meet. Taught a karate class out of the garage in his rented house in Reseda.

He opened his first school in Studio city a couple years later. And it eventually took off. He had to rent a bigger place. He then offered karobics - and karobics went crazy in L.A. Billy, his daughter Shelly, his sister Irene and his brother Michael all taught Karobics. Billy also had a huge karate class by this point.

Then all of Hollywood started coming there. My wife and I had recently relocated to Maui and I flew to L.A for a week every month to teach and train. I was stunned when I first went there. There were four karobics classes, six nights a week. Each class had 80 to 100 L.A; women (not even a hint of exaggeration in those numbers) this was in addition to several hundred martial arts students in regular classes.

So....it got huge. A Hollywood power couple were training there. They approached Billy and wanted to team up with him and take it to a national level. Naive, he said "sure" Two weeks later he called me on Maui. He told me the couple came in one day, and told them what they were going to do. he said he did not like the idea. They then took out some legal papers and told him, "We just trademarked the term Karobics. We now own it. You'll do what we want."

He promptly threw them out on their worthless asses. Right there on Ventura Boulevard. I heard they even bounced. He then said to me, "We gotta come up with a new name for Karobics" I said, "okay, let's think on it for the next couple of days".

He calls back two days later, all excited, He says, "I got it. we'll call it Tae-bo. A combination of Tae-kwon-do and boxing." (Billy won the Golden Gloves here in Mass. I worked his corner)

I'll never forget what I told him -

"Billy, that's the single worse name for anything I've ever heard. It's stupid, completely unmarketable - it just won't work."

Boy, can I call em', or what? Thank God he doesn't listen to me.

Three weeks later I land in L.A again. There are now seven Tae-bo classes a day. There is one hundred women in every single class and a line out the door waiting for the next one. This is in addition to the Martial arts program - which was the largest I've ever seen in a school to this day.

Soon, fighters were attending the classes for cardio. It was the single toughest workout I've seen, and I was in world class shape at the time. He had to offer Tae-bo at 6 a.m, 7, 8 and 9. Then in the afternoons at 4,5,6,7,8. It was fricken crazy. He again rented a larger place right down the street on Ventura.

A guy in the gym, Paul was his name, was a marketing genius. Back in the 1970's Evil Kinevil used to do commercials for this gizmo that you touched to where you had pain - and pressed a little plunger on top of it. The device gave a mild electrical stimulus that supposedly helped heal aches and pains. Paul sold 20 million units at 29 or 39 bucks apiece (I forget) You know what the unit was? It was the automatic lighter on a gas grill. It just caused a mild spark. Paul purchased them in bulk for a dollar each. Do the math.

Paul approached Billy and said he wanted to help Billy go national. Billy, much wiser now, hooked up several lawyers (who trained in the Karate class) with Paul. The rest, as they say, is history. Billy and Gayle flew out to Maui shortly after. We went out to dinner. He showed me a copy of the check he got from Paul. It was for forty million dollars. (With one hundred million more to come over the next seven years.) I asked him, "Did that puppy clear?" he said,"Yup." I said, You're buying dinner! Like forever!"

Tae-bo was never meant for self defense. Or for fighting, or for kickboxing, It was for exercise, fitness and weight loss. The way Billy, Shelly, Irene and Michael taught it - was just plain nasty. Toughest workout around. 

Anyway.....that's the skinny on Tae-bo.


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> for something that you said doesn't happen.  There's this too Gurkha fought off Afghan insurgent in hand-to-hand combat



what does this mean, "that happens a lot."?


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Actually Billy Blanks who founded Tae Bo was a Tae Kwon Do and American free style point champion.  Just because some of the moves look like kickboxing they are not necessarily.



Yes, Kickboxing in its generic term. But are you trying to say that while he's a Kickboxer, he wouldn't incorporate any kickboxing techniques into his Tae Bo? Does this sound logical to you?


----------



## FriedRice

Buka said:


> In 1985 Billy Blanks called me and said, " I have an idea how to get more people to exercise. By using karate techniques and music, so it will be fun." I said, "Okay......"
> 
> He coined the term "Karobics" He asked me if I knew an Aerobics instructor because he wanted one instead of a Martial Arts instructor. I asked "Why?" He said, "A karate guy will teach like he teaches Karate. I want someone who will teach it like Aerobics, teach it like exercise." I called my friend, Michelle, a local aerobics instructor. Her, me and Billy met in my dojo and for two weeks Billy worked with her on how he thought it should be taught. We then implemented the first Karobics class, in my dojo, in Boston. We had class on Monday, Wednesday and Fridays at 11 in the morning. There wasn't much success. There were a handful of housewifes, some of my students from an earlier morning class and some of Billy's guys. The class lasted a little over a year before we cancelled it for lack of interest.
> 
> THEN.....Billy relocates to L.A somewhere around 1988. He had a tough go of it. Married with two kids, he struggled to make ends meet. Taught a karate class out of the garage in his rented house in Reseda.
> 
> He opened his first school in Studio city a couple years later. And it eventually took off. He had to rent a bigger place. He then offered karobics - and karobics went crazy in L.A. Billy, his daughter Shelly, his sister Irene and his brother Michael all taught Karobics. Billy also had a huge karate class by this point.
> 
> Then all of Hollywood started coming there. My wife and I had recently relocated to Maui and I flew to L.A for a week every month to teach and train. I was stunned when I first went there. There were four karobics classes, six nights a week. Each class had 80 to 100 L.A; women (not even a hint of exaggeration in those numbers) this was in addition to several hundred martial arts students in regular classes.
> 
> So....it got huge. A Hollywood power couple were training there. They approached Billy and wanted to team up with him and take it to a national level. Naive, he said "sure" Two weeks later he called me on Maui. He told me the couple came in one day, and told them what they were going to do. he said he did not like the idea. They then took out some legal papers and told him, "We just trademarked the term Karobics. We now own it. You'll do what we want."
> 
> He promptly threw them out on their worthless asses. Right there on Ventura Boulevard. I heard they even bounced. He then said to me, "We gotta come up with a new name for Karobics" I said, "okay, let's think on it for the next couple of days".
> 
> He calls back two days later, all excited, He says, "I got it. we'll call it Tae-bo. A combination of Tae-kwon-do and boxing." (Billy won the Golden Gloves here in Mass. I worked his corner)
> 
> I'll never forget what I told him -
> 
> "Billy, that's the single worse name for anything I've ever heard. It's stupid, completely unmarketable - it just won't work."
> 
> Boy, can I call em', or what? Thank God he doesn't listen to me.
> 
> Three weeks later I land in L.A again. There are now seven Tae-bo classes a day. There is one hundred women in every single class and a line out the door waiting for the next one. This is in addition to the Martial arts program - which was the largest I've ever seen in a school to this day.
> 
> Soon, fighters were attending the classes for cardio. It was the single toughest workout I've seen, and I was in world class shape at the time. He had to offer Tae-bo at 6 a.m, 7, 8 and 9. Then in the afternoons at 4,5,6,7,8. It was fricken crazy. He again rented a larger place right down the street on Ventura.
> 
> A guy in the gym, Paul was his name, was a marketing genius. Back in the 1970's Evil Kinevil used to do commercials for this gizmo that you touched to where you had pain - and pressed a little plunger on top of it. The device gave a mild electrical stimulus that supposedly helped heal aches and pains. Paul sold 20 million units at 29 or 39 bucks apiece (I forget) You know what the unit was? It was the automatic lighter on a gas grill. It just caused a mild spark. Paul purchased them in bulk for a dollar each. Do the math.
> 
> Paul approached Billy and said he wanted to help Billy go national. Billy, much wiser now, hooked up several lawyers (who trained in the Karate class) with Paul. The rest, as they say, is history. Billy and Gayle flew out to Maui shortly after. We went out to dinner. He showed me a copy of the check he got from Paul. It was for forty million dollars. (With one hundred million more to come over the next seven years.) I asked him, "Did that puppy clear?" he said,"Yup." I said, You're buying dinner! Like forever!"
> 
> Tae-bo was never meant for self defense. Or for fighting, or for kickboxing, It was for exercise, fitness and weight loss. The way Billy, Shelly, Irene and Michael taught it - was just plain nasty. Toughest workout around.
> 
> Anyway.....that's the skinny on Tae-bo.




any cliff notes (or cliffies)?


----------



## kuniggety

Buka said:


> In 1985 Billy Blanks called me and said, " I have an idea how to get more people to exercise. By using karate techniques and music, so it will be fun." I said, "Okay......"
> 
> He coined the term "Karobics" He asked me if I knew an Aerobics instructor because he wanted one instead of a Martial Arts instructor. I asked "Why?" He said, "A karate guy will teach like he teaches Karate. I want someone who will teach it like Aerobics, teach it like exercise." I called my friend, Michelle, a local aerobics instructor. Her, me and Billy met in my dojo and for two weeks Billy worked with her on how he thought it should be taught. We then implemented the first Karobics class, in my dojo, in Boston. We had class on Monday, Wednesday and Fridays at 11 in the morning. There wasn't much success. There were a handful of housewifes, some of my students from an earlier morning class and some of Billy's guys. The class lasted a little over a year before we cancelled it for lack of interest.
> 
> THEN.....Billy relocates to L.A somewhere around 1988. He had a tough go of it. Married with two kids, he struggled to make ends meet. Taught a karate class out of the garage in his rented house in Reseda.
> 
> He opened his first school in Studio city a couple years later. And it eventually took off. He had to rent a bigger place. He then offered karobics - and karobics went crazy in L.A. Billy, his daughter Shelly, his sister Irene and his brother Michael all taught Karobics. Billy also had a huge karate class by this point.
> 
> Then all of Hollywood started coming there. My wife and I had recently relocated to Maui and I flew to L.A for a week every month to teach and train. I was stunned when I first went there. There were four karobics classes, six nights a week. Each class had 80 to 100 L.A; women (not even a hint of exaggeration in those numbers) this was in addition to several hundred martial arts students in regular classes.
> 
> So....it got huge. A Hollywood power couple were training there. They approached Billy and wanted to team up with him and take it to a national level. Naive, he said "sure" Two weeks later he called me on Maui. He told me the couple came in one day, and told them what they were going to do. he said he did not like the idea. They then took out some legal papers and told him, "We just trademarked the term Karobics. We now own it. You'll do what we want."
> 
> He promptly threw them out on their worthless asses. Right there on Ventura Boulevard. I heard they even bounced. He then said to me, "We gotta come up with a new name for Karobics" I said, "okay, let's think on it for the next couple of days".
> 
> He calls back two days later, all excited, He says, "I got it. we'll call it Tae-bo. A combination of Tae-kwon-do and boxing." (Billy won the Golden Gloves here in Mass. I worked his corner)
> 
> I'll never forget what I told him -
> 
> "Billy, that's the single worse name for anything I've ever heard. It's stupid, completely unmarketable - it just won't work."
> 
> Boy, can I call em', or what? Thank God he doesn't listen to me.
> 
> Three weeks later I land in L.A again. There are now seven Tae-bo classes a day. There is one hundred women in every single class and a line out the door waiting for the next one. This is in addition to the Martial arts program - which was the largest I've ever seen in a school to this day.
> 
> Soon, fighters were attending the classes for cardio. It was the single toughest workout I've seen, and I was in world class shape at the time. He had to offer Tae-bo at 6 a.m, 7, 8 and 9. Then in the afternoons at 4,5,6,7,8. It was fricken crazy. He again rented a larger place right down the street on Ventura.
> 
> A guy in the gym, Paul was his name, was a marketing genius. Back in the 1970's Evil Kinevil used to do commercials for this gizmo that you touched to where you had pain - and pressed a little plunger on top of it. The device gave a mild electrical stimulus that supposedly helped heal aches and pains. Paul sold 20 million units at 29 or 39 bucks apiece (I forget) You know what the unit was? It was the automatic lighter on a gas grill. It just caused a mild spark. Paul purchased them in bulk for a dollar each. Do the math.
> 
> Paul approached Billy and said he wanted to help Billy go national. Billy, much wiser now, hooked up several lawyers (who trained in the Karate class) with Paul. The rest, as they say, is history. Billy and Gayle flew out to Maui shortly after. We went out to dinner. He showed me a copy of the check he got from Paul. It was for forty million dollars. (With one hundred million more to come over the next seven years.) I asked him, "Did that puppy clear?" he said,"Yup." I said, You're buying dinner! Like forever!"
> 
> Tae-bo was never meant for self defense. Or for fighting, or for kickboxing, It was for exercise, fitness and weight loss. The way Billy, Shelly, Irene and Michael taught it - was just plain nasty. Toughest workout around.
> 
> Anyway.....that's the skinny on Tae-bo.



Don't ask Buka for marketing advice. Check.

Seriously, it seems like you know everyone from back in the day. I guess that's what happens when you're an old fart.


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## hoshin1600

Buka said:


> In 1985 Billy Blanks called me and said, " I have an idea how to get more people to exercise. By using karate techniques and music, so it will be fun." I said, "Okay......"
> 
> He coined the term "Karobics" He asked me if I knew an Aerobics instructor because he wanted one instead of a Martial Arts instructor. I asked "Why?" He said, "A karate guy will teach like he teaches Karate. I want someone who will teach it like Aerobics, teach it like exercise." I called my friend, Michelle, a local aerobics instructor. Her, me and Billy met in my dojo and for two weeks Billy worked with her on how he thought it should be taught. We then implemented the first Karobics class, in my dojo, in Boston. We had class on Monday, Wednesday and Fridays at 11 in the morning. There wasn't much success. There were a handful of housewifes, some of my students from an earlier morning class and some of Billy's guys. The class lasted a little over a year before we cancelled it for lack of interest.
> 
> THEN.....Billy relocates to L.A somewhere around 1988. He had a tough go of it. Married with two kids, he struggled to make ends meet. Taught a karate class out of the garage in his rented house in Reseda.
> 
> He opened his first school in Studio city a couple years later. And it eventually took off. He had to rent a bigger place. He then offered karobics - and karobics went crazy in L.A. Billy, his daughter Shelly, his sister Irene and his brother Michael all taught Karobics. Billy also had a huge karate class by this point.
> 
> Then all of Hollywood started coming there. My wife and I had recently relocated to Maui and I flew to L.A for a week every month to teach and train. I was stunned when I first went there. There were four karobics classes, six nights a week. Each class had 80 to 100 L.A; women (not even a hint of exaggeration in those numbers) this was in addition to several hundred martial arts students in regular classes.
> 
> So....it got huge. A Hollywood power couple were training there. They approached Billy and wanted to team up with him and take it to a national level. Naive, he said "sure" Two weeks later he called me on Maui. He told me the couple came in one day, and told them what they were going to do. he said he did not like the idea. They then took out some legal papers and told him, "We just trademarked the term Karobics. We now own it. You'll do what we want."
> 
> He promptly threw them out on their worthless asses. Right there on Ventura Boulevard. I heard they even bounced. He then said to me, "We gotta come up with a new name for Karobics" I said, "okay, let's think on it for the next couple of days".
> 
> He calls back two days later, all excited, He says, "I got it. we'll call it Tae-bo. A combination of Tae-kwon-do and boxing." (Billy won the Golden Gloves here in Mass. I worked his corner)
> 
> I'll never forget what I told him -
> 
> "Billy, that's the single worse name for anything I've ever heard. It's stupid, completely unmarketable - it just won't work."
> 
> Boy, can I call em', or what? Thank God he doesn't listen to me.
> 
> Three weeks later I land in L.A again. There are now seven Tae-bo classes a day. There is one hundred women in every single class and a line out the door waiting for the next one. This is in addition to the Martial arts program - which was the largest I've ever seen in a school to this day.
> 
> Soon, fighters were attending the classes for cardio. It was the single toughest workout I've seen, and I was in world class shape at the time. He had to offer Tae-bo at 6 a.m, 7, 8 and 9. Then in the afternoons at 4,5,6,7,8. It was fricken crazy. He again rented a larger place right down the street on Ventura.
> 
> A guy in the gym, Paul was his name, was a marketing genius. Back in the 1970's Evil Kinevil used to do commercials for this gizmo that you touched to where you had pain - and pressed a little plunger on top of it. The device gave a mild electrical stimulus that supposedly helped heal aches and pains. Paul sold 20 million units at 29 or 39 bucks apiece (I forget) You know what the unit was? It was the automatic lighter on a gas grill. It just caused a mild spark. Paul purchased them in bulk for a dollar each. Do the math.
> 
> Paul approached Billy and said he wanted to help Billy go national. Billy, much wiser now, hooked up several lawyers (who trained in the Karate class) with Paul. The rest, as they say, is history. Billy and Gayle flew out to Maui shortly after. We went out to dinner. He showed me a copy of the check he got from Paul. It was for forty million dollars. (With one hundred million more to come over the next seven years.) I asked him, "Did that puppy clear?" he said,"Yup." I said, You're buying dinner! Like forever!"
> 
> Tae-bo was never meant for self defense. Or for fighting, or for kickboxing, It was for exercise, fitness and weight loss. The way Billy, Shelly, Irene and Michael taught it - was just plain nasty. Toughest workout around.
> 
> Anyway.....that's the skinny on Tae-bo.



Ah Tae-Bo my arch enemy........
i was teaching a womens kickboxing class,  my class was actual kickboxing stuff but aimed at fitness.  i was actually trying to teach technique. we did pads ,heavy bag and sparing ,albiet no contact unless it was with me, then they could go all out.   one of my students introduced me to her Tae-bo VCR tape.  tae - bo grew and grew in popularity.  As time went kickboxing became synonymous with Tae-bo and aerobics.   i remember going into a fitness gym asking if they would be interested in having me to teach a kickboxing class,,the director asked if i had my aerobics certification.  i said no.... i dont do aerobics i teach kickboxing ....:you need to have your aerobics certification if you want to teach kickboxing,  ive been doing this stuff for 15-20 years and now you are telling me i need to be ceritfied by an organization that only came into existence 5 years ago that has nothing to do with what i teach.
i couldnt explain to people there was a difference.   not too long ago i noticed the new fad of a more ring style kickboxing where you use heavy bags and pad work.   you can find kick boxing and boxing programs all over for women now that are not aerobics.   
if not for Tae-Bo i could have been the millionaire with my fitness program and i would have ruled the world!!!


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## Brian R. VanCise

FriedRice said:


> Yes, Kickboxing in its generic term. But are you trying to say that while he's a Kickboxer, he wouldn't incorporate any kickboxing techniques into his Tae Bo? Does this sound logical to you?



Billy Blanks is not a kickboxer.  He was a Tae Kwon Do instructor and a national and world point fighting champion.  Tae Bo is an exercise routine.  Buka is our resident expert here on Billy Blanks and while I am sure a few others have met him I had the opportunity to train with him back in the day when he was a point fighter.  You can't just throw out any term you like when describing something first it was MCMAP is mma lite or then kali lite and now Tae Bo is kickboxing.  On this forum you need to be specific for people to take your seriously!


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## Brian R. VanCise

Here is a Billy Blanks story:

Now a good friend of mine met Billy at the Mr. Olympia expo a while back.  Billy remembered him and I from back in the day and was thrilled to have someone there who could talk about Billy's martial skills rather than just Tae Bo.


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## Brian R. VanCise

FriedRice now in understanding how to communicate effectively on the internet if you had said Billy Blanks teaches Tae Bo which is Cardio Kickboxing then you would have communicated effectively.


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## drop bear

FriedRice said:


> I just call what MCMAP really is because it's designed mostly to keep the soldiers in shape...with a certain level of   aggression maintained, but not enough to cause injuries...and provide fitness & fun.  The bayonet drills + edged weapon are not very impressive by Kali standards nor is the H2H to full MMA. Bayonets are rarely, if ever deployed b/c there are more chances of stabbing your fellow soldiers.
> 
> So what's Tae Bo? Not Kickboxing Lite?



No i disagree with that.

Tae bo is krav maga kickboxing. A cool idea with all the relevance sucked out of it.

Mc Map still has the fundementals of good training. Just pruned to fit the time frame.

Which is a hard task by the way.  You have to be really strict with what people need to know vs what you want them to know.

Love the avatar by the way.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Yeah, that is a great avatar!


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## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> that happens a lot.





FriedRice said:


> what does this mean, "that happens a lot."?



You said it, you tell me.


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## Buka

kuniggety said:


> Don't ask Buka for marketing advice. Check.
> 
> Seriously, it seems like you know everyone from back in the day. I guess that's what happens when you're an old fart.



Yeah, it was a great time to be a fighter. Just as now is a great time to be an old fart. (but I'm still fighting, bro)  And we should hook up sometime, maybe have lunch, being in the same state and all. I was just on Oahu on Monday.

Here's a pic from back in the day, I've probably posted it before, me Billy and Joe, about to teach a beginners class in my dojo. Joe was staying at the house for a seminar the next night, probably came down because he didn't have anything else to do. Billy lived a few miles away, he was down, too. A lot of the beginners didn't even know who they were.

And you know who got their a** kicked in that trio. Which is why any time some fool yells at me that they're going to kick my a**, I'd think, "and?"


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## lklawson

Just because it's sorta-kinda-almost-but-not-quite related to this thread...

“The Unknown Wrestler: Jiu-Jitsu Constables Defeated” (1906)

You gotta watch out for those Army Drill Instructors who know more jiu-jitsu than you...  :rofl:

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve

lklawson said:


> Just because it's sorta-kinda-almost-but-not-quite related to this thread...
> 
> “The Unknown Wrestler: Jiu-Jitsu Constables Defeated” (1906)
> 
> You gotta watch out for those Army Drill Instructors who know more jiu-jitsu than you...  :rofl:
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Thanks for sharing that, Kirk!  Very cool story.


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