# Bowing and respect



## pvwingchun (Dec 11, 2003)

We have had several parents of students as well as students themselves who have felt that bowing in or bowing to an instructor was a problem.  They all cited religious reasons.  We have been debating how to handle this.  As for now we simply explain to them that this is a form of respect, which we feel is the right thing to do, although some people still aren't convinced.  Anyone else have this problem? If so how have youhandled it???


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pvwingchun _
> *We have had several parents of students as well as students themselves who have felt that bowing in or bowing to an instructor was a problem.  They all cited religious reasons.  We have been debating how to handle this.  As for now we simply explain to them that this is a form of respect, which we feel is the right thing to do, although some people still aren't convinced.  Anyone else have this problem? If so how have youhandled it??? *


In Ak we bow to in-animate objects and salute to people. By bowing you are not so much showing respect to the other person, but are showing that you adhere to the customs of another culture. Thats all well and good but when you go to a tournament and are marked poorly for not being as japanese as the next guy it can cause problems. I think bowing automaticly and not stopping to think about how our own culture views the issue may grease the wheels of acceptance, but why discard your own beliefs and customs in favor of another. Perhaps they have managed to convince you that your culture is not worth adhering to. I'm not so sure.
Sean


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## MisterMike (Dec 11, 2003)

It seems some people don't get that we don't only teach how to punch and kick, but also forms of respect.

I'd find out just what they have a problem with. Are you bowing to a statue or idol? Or just to each other? Which one of these would they have a problem with? I think you explained it to them pretty well though.

Frommy perspective, dojos have changed over timefrom places to practive military excercises to places of spiritual relevance. I guess it depends on how yours is set up.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 11, 2003)

Explain to them it is the equivalent of a handshake, a sign of respect ... not worship.

The salute thing is a Kenpo thing and not usually applicable to other traditional karate, japanese or korean systems.  You also see salutes in Kung-Fu, and FMA where they don't bow.

-Michael


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## Cruentus (Dec 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Explain to them it is the equivalent of a handshake, a sign of respect ... not worship.
> 
> The salute thing is a Kenpo thing and not usually applicable to other traditional karate, japanese or korean systems.  You also see salutes in Kung-Fu, and FMA where they don't bow.
> ...



Exactly...explain to them that in Asia where your art comes from, traditionally people bow instead of handshake to show respect for one another. Its tradtitional rather then philosophical or religious.


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## CanuckMA (Jan 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Exactly...explain to them that in Asia where your art comes from, traditionally people bow instead of handshake to show respect for one another. Its tradtitional rather then philosophical or religious. *



The problem is not the bowing to people, but to objects. I know that religious Jews cannot bow to what they consider idols. Some dojos have shrines to budha, even bowing to the picture of the styles (usually deceased) founder. There a re some opinions that the bowing while kneeling may be problematic.


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## OC Kid (Jun 19, 2004)

I wouldnt bow to object either. But my students bow when they enter the dojo trainig area and to the instructors at the begininng and end of class as a sign of respect and to each other before and after sparring. Maybe you could delevelope a information sheet to give to the students and their parents at uponm and or before enrolling in your school explaining the rules and why. Then if they have any questions they can take it to their Rabbi or pastor or whomever for review prior to enrolling.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 19, 2004)

We bow to show respect:
 when entering the school for the lesson to be learned and respect for the trainning area.
 when working with someone else respect for the other person
 to those that have come before and to those that will someday study. respect to all who study and pass on and learn the arts.


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## loki09789 (Jun 20, 2004)

pvwingchun said:
			
		

> We have had several parents of students as well as students themselves who have felt that bowing in or bowing to an instructor was a problem. They all cited religious reasons. We have been debating how to handle this. As for now we simply explain to them that this is a form of respect, which we feel is the right thing to do, although some people still aren't convinced. Anyone else have this problem? If so how have youhandled it???


I think the cultural equivelancy explanation will help, but when making a decision on this type of thing it is important to understand WHAT religion/cultural views on bowing they are starting with.  My instructor has had to deal with Muslim students in class who practiced fairly strict rules about bowing as well as male/female contact, so handshakes were out too in a co-ed interaction (actual technical training contact was acceptable because of the clarity of intent).  If it is Judeo/Christian and they push it, I would say just let them opt not to bow but substitute it with a respectful verbal or handshake.

Ultimately, if the point is to educate students culturally, they understand the function of the bow - thus they are educated.  If the point is that they understand that politeness and gestures of respect are important, then offering them alternatives that are more culturally/religiously comfortable will go a long way because it is a gesture of you respecting their culture/religious devotion.

If they chose to be disrespectful because they are prejudicial/judgemental about ALL those who bow, the culture that it came from (bigotry) or refuse to demonstrate any form of respect....refunds and exits for them.


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## arnisador (Jun 20, 2004)

This issue has gone as far as court:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/54083_judo11.shtml

That's from this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=732


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## Han-Mi (Jun 20, 2004)

Everyone has a problem with something now'a'days.:idunno: 

Basically, I agree with the explanation of respect. I personally have no problem bowing to flags, and I don't think I would have a problem bowing to a picture of someone. The reason is not because I am not religious, but because I consider a form of respect. You can respect a country, or a person who happens to be dead just as much as a living person in front of you, but you cannot bow to a country or a dead guy, so you bow to a representation of them.

The advice I have to add is this: Do not change your rules and traditions for these few students' parents. That is something I would hate to here of.


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