# loud in class



## donald1 (Sep 9, 2013)

when your in class and you kiai, count out Kata or exercises, should you be the loudest or just loud in general?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 9, 2013)

donald1 said:


> when your in class and you kiai, count out Kata or exercises, should you be the loudest or just loud in general?



Its your money be as loud as you want.    If you like being the loudest go for it.


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## Steve (Sep 9, 2013)

I think that you should only be just a little less loud than your senior training partners.  It's disrespectful to be louder than people who out rank you.


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## DennisBreene (Sep 9, 2013)

If you're putting more energy into being loud than you are gaining from the Kiai; then maybe you're being a little too loud.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 9, 2013)

Steve said:


> It's disrespectful to be louder than people who out rank you.


Ive never heard that before.  interesting


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## Steve (Sep 10, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Ive never heard that before.  interesting



Come on, Ballen.  I'm being facetious.  Man, I guess I'm too subtle tonight.  

For the record, I don't have the first clue what happens in a karate dojo. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 10, 2013)

donald1 said:


> when your in class and you kiai, count out Kata or exercises, should you be the loudest or just loud in general?



I have never studied Karate but from my perspective; If you are giving instructions then you should be as loud as you need to be, if you are doing your kiai then you should be as loud as you can.


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## donald1 (Sep 10, 2013)

If you're just slightly under the senior student does that still apply as being disrespectful?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 10, 2013)

Steve said:


> Come on, Ballen.  I'm being facetious.  Man, I guess I'm too subtle tonight.
> 
> For the record, I don't have the first clue what happens in a karate dojo.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



As many crazy things as I hear people say is "disrespectful" in a dojo I would not have been surprised if you heard that someplace.


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## harlan (Sep 10, 2013)

It's all relative.

Stand closer to sensei, and you will sound louder without actually haaaving to be louder.

And of course, one must neeever be louder than sensei.


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## dancingalone (Sep 11, 2013)

donald1 said:


> when your in class and you kiai, count out Kata or exercises, should you be the loudest or just loud in general?



The point to kiai isn't to be loud.  It's to help unify your breathing and focus and muscles into action (that's one thought anyway).  Be as loud as you need to be in order for that to happen, though to be sure, the intensity should originate in your diaphragm, not your throat.  Some people have fantastic kiai with a single short hiss from their stomachs.


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## Happy-Papi (Sep 11, 2013)

Steve said:


> I think that you should only be just a little less loud than your senior training partners.  It's disrespectful to be louder than people who out rank you.



I think I learned something new here. My father trained me in karate at a very young age and moved to another dojo before I reach my teens but never knew that it's disrespectful to be louder than my seniors. Years passed and now there are times I go to dojo or do private lessons (in Japan) teaching my stuffs (CQC-FMA) and I notice that whenever I teach students don't do the "kiai" but when I'm finished teaching, the students are back to doing their kiai. Normally I teach instructors and higher ranking black belts but sometimes I do support lower belts too but the lower belts are the ones who are shouting and the higher belts stay silent. When this happens, everybody becomes silent??? Since I come from a different study, I don't make sounds or do kiai and this is probably the reason why my students are not doing it. My class is not that silent because I laugh a lot and instead of hearing kiai, laughter is often heard. 

Next time I will try to experiment and do some kiai and see if my students do it too  
Thank you Steve!


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## dancingalone (Sep 11, 2013)

I guess this is how myths get started.    Time to go register my hands and feet as deadly weapons.


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## DennisBreene (Sep 11, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> I guess this is how myths get started.    Time to go register my hands and feet as deadly weapons.



Is that a concealed permit?


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 12, 2013)

DennisBreene said:


> Is that a concealed permit?



Only if you keep your hands in your pockets.


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## JonWal (Sep 12, 2013)

My take on it is when you are learning a technique you're concentrating so much on the movements that the kiai is the last thing on your mind.

The more you practice the technique, the more power, speed and confidence you have so the Kiai comes almost natuarally.


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## Hatsie (Sep 17, 2013)

We are expected to be at least 5 DBS  quieter that the sensei and/Or an octave below.  And 2-3 DBS below senior students.   It sounds like a kiai version of "doe- ray- me- fa...."

I had thought this was standart practice world wide? Maybe not......


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 17, 2013)

donald1 said:


> when your in class and you kiai, count out Kata or exercises, should you be the loudest or just loud in general?



Oh, you should always be the loudest, definitely.  In fact, any student who is not louder than all the other students obviously isn't giving it their all and should be dismissed from the class. :lol:


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## Grenadier (Sep 17, 2013)

Kiai is simply used to focus your ki.  It can make a technique stronger, and better focused, but it's also a tool that's to be properly used.  

If you're not using enough focus in your techniques where such focus is required, or if your technique doesn't have enough force behind it, then perhaps a stronger kiai can help.  Think of it as using a support beam to hold something up, or using a slightly heavier hammer to get a tougher job done.  

If you use your kiai in an obnoxious manner (e.g. dragging it out to sound like "EIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!" instead of a simple "EI!"), then I would guess that you're not using kiai in the proper sense.  One would think that you're using your kiai like an excessively bright neon sign, trying to make yourself the focus of the class, or that you're trying to squash an ant using a sledgehammer.


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## Zero (Sep 27, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Only if you keep your hands in your pockets.



Nice.


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## Mauthos (Sep 27, 2013)

If your external kiai can match your internal one then there is no limits to how loud you can be...


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## Zero (Sep 27, 2013)

Funny thing this whole kiai thing.
I never needed it personally for knocking people out in tournament or the few street fights I have been in. I have not experienced it from others in full contact either.  Seems pretty much a sport-karate device or for demonstrations

I have used noise to fluster less experienced fighters in sparring and this was shown to, and used on, me by my sensei when I first started sparring him. This is an entirely different thing however and is more of the psycholigical "warfare" department.

I would go so far as to say that I think from a biomechanical perspective the application of kiai, or the release of pressure through vocalisation, is actually wrong in the context of fighting and applicaiton of strikes when fighting.  I have powerlifted when younger and still lift pretty heavy and acknowledge that the release of pressure via sound under extreme exertion is natural and may at times even be required for maximum lifts or exertions of strength.  This may also be the case when doing high level "breaking" feats.

However, to be good, a strike fighter needs to execute his moves without effort and at ease. Exertion under strain just does not equate to a powerful, knock-out punch or kick.  Obviously the correct muscles need to be engaged with execution at speed but the strike is generally of a fluid nature in a dynamic fight environment. I don't see how a kiai is beneficial or necessary to improve one's strike in a fight setting. It is rare to execute a punch, unless one is certain the opponent is shaken so badly, with the amount of exertion and strain that would naturally generate such a noise as a pressure release or pressure amplifier. In a potential five or ten round setting (in full contact tournament context) you do not fight in such a manner with such a drastic energy expenditure.

You simply do not need the kiai in anyway for the amount of power needed to generate a knock-out or damaging strike. The beauty of a knock-out punch or kick is predominantly in the technique and skill of execution.

I am not a sports doctor but have fought and competed for many years and during my early/mid twenties at high level and have had training from some very good fighters. But other views and - more importantly - reasoning behind those views would be welcome on this (as no doubt many karate and other MA practitioners will feel very wedded to the whole kiai concept).  This subject may no doubt have been done to death on some other thread so apologies if that's the case.  But I think my observations have some merit.


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## wimwag (Jan 2, 2014)

A little bit of a late entry to the thread, but...from my experience, you need to be as loud as a senior student tells you to be.  I get told to crank it up all the time because I forget to kiai when I am focusing on correcting something, which is always. ;-)


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