# Pros-Cons to Mantis styles?



## neoinarien (May 7, 2008)

Pros-Cons to Mantis styles (northern and/or southern) vs other styles? What are the relative strengths and weaknesses of the system compared to either other styles, or other martial arts?


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## Flying Crane (May 7, 2008)

Don't get into a pointless exercise of trying to compare styles like this.  

In the hands of someone who knows and understands it well, it can't be beat.  Same with any style.

In the hands of someone who doesn't know nor understand it well, it's worthless.  Same with any style.

What you may find useful is a discussion of what style might be a good match for your individual and personal body type, interests, strengths and weaknesses and whatnot.  

Finding a system that is good match for yourself, in addition to a good instructor, is what you ought to be considering.  In fact, finding a good instructor of any style, should take a higher priority over the particular style. 

You should not be trying to make an abstract comparison between individual styles and determining which is objectively the "best", because it's an impossible evaluation to make.


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## neoinarien (May 7, 2008)

Never asked if it was the "best." That would be a silly and fruitless question. 

Simply looking for a feel of the system, what it likes to do, what it doesn't, etc.

Unless you're saying that all systems are exactly alike, share all the same techniques, perspective, outlook and style and therefore this question is pointless.


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## exile (May 7, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> Never asked if it was the "best." That would be a silly and fruitless question.
> 
> Simply looking for *a feel of the system, what it likes to do, what it doesn't, etc.*



n., that's a fair question, but it's really a different one from what you originally asked. I mean... think in terms of karate/TKD vs. jiujutsu/judo. The striking arts like to strike and use techs that break any effort of the attacker to take the defender to the ground. The grappling arts like to use locks, throws and pins to bring the attacker to the ground and finish him there. Very, very different feel. Strength or weakness? Not a valid distinction here: either approach can work, depending on the skill of the defender. And within the striking arts: karate emphasizes hand/arm techs, TKD is more 50/50 (in some approaches) or much more heavily oriented to leg striking techs than upper body techs (in others). I'm not talking tournament orientation here, but SD strategy: karateka favor closing the distance and using damaging hand/arm/elbow strikes to the head and upper body; TKD defense for the 'kicking' proponents, so far as I can see, involves creating distance from the attacker and then using rapid damaging leg strikes to overwhelm him, with limb destruction as a key element and upper body hand/arm strikes only coming in at the finish. (My own take on TKD is more like that of karateka, but that's not the point here). The thing is, that's part of the kind of thing you're asking about, but neither striking approach is necesarily stronger or weaker than the other (though the training for each is different respectively, and I do believe, myself, that the higher kicks are inherently riskier). The point is, you can talk quite validly about the different 'feel' of each system, but what Michael was responding to was the implication in your OP that the different strategic approaches of the different mantis styles&#8212;and by logical extension, of these various MAs I've mentioned, or any others for that matter&#8212;might count as strengths or weaknesses, rather than as alternative guiding principles which can all be successful if implemented by a technically adept practitioner (which I think, as you apparently do also, as a much more accurate description of any comparison).


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## neoinarien (May 7, 2008)

exile,

Thanks for the thoughts. Yes, I agree entirely with what you said. 

Which still leaves the question of what are the relative preferences, feels, etc to the Mantis system? What is it trying to do specifically (grabbing, striking, etc).


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## Jade Tigress (May 8, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> exile,
> 
> Thanks for the thoughts. Yes, I agree entirely with what you said.
> 
> Which still leaves the question of what are the relative preferences, feels, etc to the Mantis system? What is it trying to do specifically (grabbing, striking, etc).



I train Southern Mantis (Jook Lum). It's an infighting style with quick strikes and the use of a strong root, chi sao, and internal power.


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## 7starmarc (May 8, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> exile,
> 
> Thanks for the thoughts. Yes, I agree entirely with what you said.
> 
> Which still leaves the question of what are the relative preferences, feels, etc to the Mantis system? What is it trying to do specifically (grabbing, striking, etc).



As I am only about three years into my 7 star PM training, I don't know that I can offer a complete picture of this deep style. Suffice to say, PM is a style with a focus on relatively close in fighting, and a strong striking component. In addition to a wide variety of hand and foot/leg strikes, we utilize a large amount of sensitivity, sticking, trapping, and controlling/attacking of the opponent's center. Throws are integrated, and are based in strong stances/leg work, but ground fighting (so far in my training) has not been emphasized. Chin na (joint locks), vital targets, and pressure points are part of the system.

Depending on the particular style and teacher, you will see a mix of hard and soft. I have seen statements that 7 star is about 60/40 hard/soft, but I feel that it is more 50/50 as I have progressed in my training.

As a traditional CMA, weapons are practiced in forms in addition to the empty hand forms. Depending on who who ask, there seem to be about 70 empty hand forms and about 30 weapon forms in the complete system.

I would caution you, however, about trying to "learn" too much about the style by watching video of forms or looking through pictures. Unless you have a firm understanding of the principles of the style, your interpretation of the forms might be off the mark by quite a bit. A well performed two man set might give you the best idea of what it looks like.

You might want to check out these videos, by Sifu Jeff Hughes, entitled The Way of the Mantis (in twp parts)


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## Flying Crane (May 8, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> Never asked if it was the "best." That would be a silly and fruitless question.


 
I am glad you understand that point, many people don't seem to.



> Simply looking for a feel of the system, what it likes to do, what it doesn't, etc.


 
this is a fair question, and as Exile pointed out, is not the same as your original question.  I guess it was the "Mantis vs. Other Styles" bit, that turns it into a comparison.  But, getting an understanding of how Mantis approaches things, and what kind of techniques they use, and deciding if that would be a good match for you is a valid line of inquiry.  I am not a Mantis guy, so I can't help you with this.



> Unless you're saying that all systems are exactly alike, share all the same techniques, perspective, outlook and style and therefore this question is pointless.


 
Not at all.  

But as I stated earlier, all styles can be tremendously effective, or absolutely worthless, depending on how well the person understands and executes it.  In that respect, all styles are the same.


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## neoinarien (May 8, 2008)

Thanks for the input, this is helping tremendously. 

I would be coming from a TKD background, 1st Dan, so I am very familiar with kicking, etc. I anticipate having to unlearn/dump a lot of the knowledge before slowly reintegrating it after absorbing the ebb, flow and fundamentals of CMA. 

Body style? 6'0", 170-185lbs medium-frame. I've played ice hockey for 19 years, so I have a lot of lower body strength built up along with forearm strength (though I definitely would use lean rather than 'built' to describe myself). Hockey since a young age (im 23) has blessed me with great footwork and balance, so what I've heard about the mantis footwork has appealed to me (namely: it can be very challenging).  

My interests in Kung Fu are to find a practical MA self-defense wise (my wife has minimal grounding in MA and I'd like that to change), with both a strong width and depth of styles and abilities. Not to knock TKD, but I always felt that the emphasis was more of a sporting one, with incidental (hapkido aside) application to self-defense given the obsession with barraging high leg kicks (something that never struck me, removed from TKD for about 8 years now, as entirely sensible or risk friendly). CMA strikes me as having what I am looking for due to it's approach to addressing stricking, locking, pressure points, etc, along with a strong internal approach (which should be, IMO, compulsory in any MA... though sadly isn't). 

So I am trying to find a friendly system. Wing Chun looks fascinating, though in truth my knowledge on ANY cma at the moment is confined entirely to just about every book I could pick up and read at Barnes and Nobles/Borders and youtube. 

Visiting my local schools is not an option right now because I will almost certainly (95%+) be moving within the next few months to either Milwaukee or Columbia SC. I have contacted/tried to contact some Sifus at different schools with questions. Most encourage to come in and visit, ignoring or missing the fact that I cannot. 

Any thoughts? Going in the right direction?


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## Flying Crane (May 9, 2008)

I'd say you are probabaly looking at it in the right way.

Maybe it could make sense to visit schools in your area, even if you believe you will be moving soon.  You don't have to sign up if you feel you won't be able to commit to training, but on the other hand, it will give you some information that you can take with you when you move.  You might, or might not, like what you see, and you can use that knowledge when you start looking for schools in your new city.  So if the teachers are willing, show up and just watch a class or two.  Just tell them you are interested in training in martial arts, and you want to just see what the options are before you make any decisions.  Be courteous, and there shouldn't be a problem.

If someone tries to hard-sell to you on the spot, that is a red flag in my opinion, at least about that particular school.  But it shouldn't matter, because you are probably moving away anyhow, so there's nothing to lose.

So think of this time as an opportunity to do some research before you make any decisions.


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## Ninebird8 (Jul 3, 2008)

One brief comment for you since you profess to have really good footwork from the hockey days: although I am a long time bird stylist (eagle claw, crane, ninebirds as well as Yang tai chi (okay, only originally half crane half snake LOL), I know some great mantis stylists including my Shaolin master (tong long preying mantis), John Cheng and Raymond Fogg (Jeff Hughe's senior and teacher, I have known Jeff for a long while too and am glad he has also taken up one of my main styles eagle claw, though mine is from  Leung Shum and his from a Lau sister), Brendan Lai, Henry Poo Yee, etc. In most, one thing never mentioned is that most mantis uses monkey footwork in their movements. Soooo....from a footwork perspective would also help you to see monkey style footwork and see how it was adapted into mantis. Also, in the Northern realm, in my opinion eagle claw, preying mantis, and white crane are the three really good locking and grabbing systems. If you take mantis, therefore, you will also learn some really exceptional chin na and setups to apply them, and the way the extended index finger is used as a pressure point attack while the rest of the hand performs the lock, grab, and pull in is just like the bug itself!! The bridging techniques of mantis, especially when the appropriate footwork is applies as well, is really effective....I know, from the receiving end after all these years...LOL!! If you are into the 18 weapons, the mantis spear, darn dao saber, and double hook sword sets are also astoundingly beautiful and deadly!! After 30+ years, the two styles that I did not study but have always wanted to and admired are mantis and ba gua. I think both, like the ying jow, crane, nine bird (Wudan Shaolin Hong Kong family style), and tai chi, are exceptional arts and I love to both watch and spar with them. It is fun when sparring a mantis, as an eagle claw practitioner, along with Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's chin na, to play with the bridging, locking, grabbing, and infighting of mantis. I always learn alot from it! Hope this answers some of the cool aspects of mantis I have seen done by some great masters like Brendan Lai, Raymond Fogg, Henry Chung, John Cheng, and Jeff Hughes.


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## bajitanglang (Jul 19, 2008)

Pro's? Well lets just say that it is aggressive and it is not defensive at the high level,
Cons It lacks the commitment of styles like Baji Quan which is also an aggressive  non defensive style
THis is why i train them intertwined. They compliment each other perfectly


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