# rickson gracie



## Odin (Jan 4, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPn2HT0MwMs&mode=related&search=

video of rickson gracie rolling...i liked the post ''if rickson is pope then is fedor jesus?''

lol he could be.....


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## Shogun (Jan 4, 2007)

I personally don't like comparing a 185 pound fighter to a 230 pound fighter. Fedor is a great fighter, but they keep putting him up against the same fighters. Big Nog gives him a good fight, but Mark hunt and Mirko crocop would beat him if they had a better ground game, IMO. I am not a big fan of AA, but I DO believe his game is a perfect achilles heel of Fedor. dream matchup, eh?

but back to rickson, he is 47 years old, people should stop trying to get him to fight again. he still GOD when it comes to groundfighting


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## Odin (Jan 5, 2007)

Shogun said:


> I personally don't like comparing a 185 pound fighter to a 230 pound fighter. Fedor is a great fighter, but they keep putting him up against the same fighters. Big Nog gives him a good fight, but Mark hunt and Mirko crocop would beat him if they had a better ground game, IMO. I am not a big fan of AA, but I DO believe his game is a perfect achilles heel of Fedor. dream matchup, eh?
> 
> but back to rickson, he is 47 years old, people should stop trying to get him to fight again. he still GOD when it comes to groundfighting


 
Is it Fedors fault that Mark hunt and cro cop dont have a good enough ground game?
Comments like that are worthless (no offense) it would be like me saying if i could roll like nog and strike like wandi I would be the champ...me and a couple other hundred people.
Its more then his skills that make fedor (IMO) the king of MMA, look at his his unnatural ability to remain calm at all times, even when odds are stacked so hard against him,look at his seemlessly bullet proof way he soaks up damage yet never loses focus (remember the randleman slam?)his ground and pound is an artform, notice how he doesnt just gain mount and strike randomly like most mma'ers, all his strikes are carefully executed with pin point accuracy Fedor's abiltiy as a fighter is endless...why does he fight the same people...well because he has beaten everyone else!he could move to any federation but could they afford the mill a fight pride has offered him.
Nog has had three attempts at beatin fedor I love Nog as a fighter but Fedor is so beyond anything ive seen. 

I agree about rickson not fighting, he shouldnt now he's far to old, he will always be a great jujitsu grappler and in arguments many years to come he will be used to defend the Gracie name to the youngens...'' yes will Royce did loss to Hughes but he wasnt never the best gracie the best grace was a young man named Rickson''....


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## Odin (Jan 5, 2007)

Shogun said:


> I personally don't like comparing a 185 pound fighter to a 230 pound fighter. Fedor is a great fighter, but they keep putting him up against the same fighters. Big Nog gives him a good fight, but Mark hunt and Mirko crocop would beat him if they had a better ground game, IMO. I am not a big fan of AA, but I DO believe his game is a perfect achilles heel of Fedor. dream matchup, eh?
> 
> but back to rickson, he is 47 years old, people should stop trying to get him to fight again. he still GOD when it comes to groundfighting


 
Sorry AA? is that Arloski?


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## Rook (Jan 5, 2007)

The only person I see as a threat to Fedor right now is Cro-Cop, and with his move to the UFC, I doubt anyone is going to knock Fedor off his pedestal for a while.  Hunt is going to be interesting to watch in years to come, but remember that he only did as well as he did in this last fight because Fedor unwisely exhausted himself trying to get an armbar at the begining.  

I suspect that Fedor's submissions defense and ussual conditioning precludes a submission by anyone who hasn't significantly worn him down beforehand.  If he has any one weakness, it would probably be to leg kicks - his ability to keep forward pressure on Mirko the last time around might not be repeated in a rematch.  Cro-cop's ever improving takedown and throw defense might give him the abilty to stay standing long enough to chop Fedor down as he did Yoshida... but this is only speculation and it remains to be seen if it would work.


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## Raiderbeast (Jan 29, 2007)

If Fedor is Jesus then Rickson is God..


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## Rook (Jan 29, 2007)

Raiderbeast said:


> If Fedor is Jesus then Rickson is God..


 
How do you figure that?


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## Raiderbeast (Jan 29, 2007)

Rook said:


> How do you figure that?


Rickson is undefeated..  Fedor isn't..


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## Odin (Jan 30, 2007)

Raiderbeast said:


> Rickson is undefeated.. Fedor isn't..


 
the only fight fedor lost was a stoppage due to cut....thats not really a loss...plus Feodrs record is a lot better documented then Ricksons.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 30, 2007)

Raiderbeast said:


> Rickson is undefeated.. Fedor isn't..


 
Rickson is/was good no question there. But let's be honest about this.  Rickson didn't fight as many DOCUMENTED fights as Fedor or the level of professional and highly conditioned competition.  Much of Rickson's "legendary" record is speculation and heresay. And therein lies the debate...


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## Odin (Jan 30, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Rickson is/was good no question there. But let's be honest about this. Rickson didn't fight as many DOCUMENTED fights as Fedor or the level of professional and highly conditioned competition. Much of Rickson's "legendary" record is speculation and heresay. And therein lies the debate...


 
Amen...but that speculation is what keeps the Graice fans happy.


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## Rook (Jan 30, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Rickson is/was good no question there. But let's be honest about this. Rickson didn't fight as many DOCUMENTED fights as Fedor or the level of professional and highly conditioned competition. Much of Rickson's "legendary" record is speculation and heresay. And therein lies the debate...


 
Thats the thing, Rickson never fought anyone even anywhere near the ability of the guys that Fedor is beating.  There is really no comparison - Rickson isn't even close.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 30, 2007)

Rook said:


> Thats the thing, Rickson never fought anyone even anywhere near the ability of the guys that Fedor is beating. There is really no comparison - Rickson isn't even close.


 
How do you know? Have you fought the guys Rickson fought, AND the guys Fedor has fought? Have you accomplished your own black-belt or better status in BJJ, and rolled with each of them that you could make an informed comparison along these same lines?

The unpleasant reality is that we really don't know. And can't, because we lack the ability to be informed consumers, comparing apples to apples experientially.

This is just "who would win...King Kong, or Godzilla?" silliness.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 30, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> How do you know? Have you fought the guys Rickson fought, AND the guys Fedor has fought? Have you accomplished your own black-belt or better status in BJJ, and rolled with each of them that you could make an informed comparison along these same lines?
> 
> The unpleasant reality is that we really don't know. And can't, because we lack the ability to be informed consumers, comparing apples to apples experientially.
> 
> This is just "who would win...King Kong, or Godzilla?" silliness.


 
That's easy...Godzilla.   But on another note one doesn't have to fight either group.  Just observe their competition footage.  As a case study I'll use the documentary "Choke".  You get to see plenty of footage of the guys Rickson fought in this tournament.  On guy "Yoshihisa Yamamoto has compiled a 6-15 record and no major titles in this style of competition.  Next we have Koichiro Kimura who only fought in this tournament and before that he had never fought in an event that allowed striking.  He was a "seasoned" grappler that lost to a kickboxer using a guillotine choke.  Next we have Yuki Nakai that was already beaten to the point were both eyes were swoolen shut and was out heavily outweighed.  The level of competition was...less than impressive.  Let's crunch some numbers here.  The total records of both combatants competitiors and the respective win percentage of each of their competition.  be back soon...


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 30, 2007)

Just for Fun:

Rickson's Competition included two documented MMA champion winners (one Japan Vale Tudo and one Pancrase).  One was 154lbs and already beaten profusely but I digress there.  Rickson's competitiors amassed a total record of 22 wins and 38 losses. That's just under a 37% win percentage.

Fedors Competition included at least five documented MMA champions (UFC, Pride and Pancrase).  His competitors amassed a total record of 316 wins and 170 losses.  That's just over a 65% win percentage.

Just on sheer numbers Fedor's competiton was stiffer than Rickson's BY FAR.  Now who could beat who is always speculation.  But ON PAPER Fedor 1) is Younger, 2) is Bigger and 3) has Fought MUCH stiffer competition.  So based solely on statistics (which is as close to science as we can get on this kind of topic) I'll have to second Rook on:

"Thats the thing, Rickson never fought anyone even anywhere near the ability of the guys that Fedor is beating. There is really no comparison - Rickson isn't even close."

....ON PAPER. But battles aren't fought on paper...well except maybe tic-tac-toe.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 30, 2007)

Brazilian underground = who has trained/rolled with whom. Very frequently, these guys have trained together. Many would be surprised to know which MMA celebs have had their asses handed to them on the mat by guys with less impressive documented records. It's usually behind closed doors, with an unspoken gentlemens agreement that nobody's gonna talk about it. It's just a friendly training bout.

I've not heard of this with these two in particular, but have experienced this sort of thing often over the last 17 years. King Kong and Godzilla, unbeknownst to the public, will have frequently rolled together with one or the other coming our of it saying, "Dang. That guy is on another plane altogether."

D.


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## Raiderbeast (Jan 30, 2007)

It's easy to talk about a guy on top of his game.  Rickson isn't fighting anymore.  Fedor is in his prime right now.  In 10 years a discussion can be made but until Fedor reaches the level Rickson is on it's not even close.  Pride fans and some MMA fans know about Fedor..  All Martial Artists know about Rickson Gracie.. That's the difference..


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## Rook (Jan 30, 2007)

Raiderbeast said:


> It's easy to talk about a guy on top of his game. Rickson isn't fighting anymore. Fedor is in his prime right now. In 10 years a discussion can be made but until Fedor reaches the level Rickson is on it's not even close. Pride fans and some MMA fans know about Fedor.. All Martial Artists know about Rickson Gracie.. That's the difference..


 
This nonsense has got to stop.  Many boxing fans and experts have a problem thinking of Marciano as a great fighter and he cleaned out his division and demolished multiple HOF fighters.  Rickson was one of the better fighters of his era, but his legend comes out of matches in an era when he was beating Brazil's best streetfighters, not international elite athletes and modern world class fighters.  Rickson never beat any of the major fighters that were available to him even in the mid 90s when he was young enought to still compete head to head, and few of those fighters are all that feared today.


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## Rook (Jan 30, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Just for Fun:
> 
> Rickson's Competition included two documented MMA champion winners (one Japan Vale Tudo and one Pancrase). One was 154lbs and already beaten profusely but I digress there. Rickson's competitiors amassed a total record of 22 wins and 38 losses. That's just under a 37% win percentage.
> 
> Fedors Competition included at least five documented MMA champions (UFC, Pride and Pancrase). His competitors amassed a total record of 316 wins and 170 losses. That's just over a 65% win percentage.


 
The other implication you can draw immediately from this information is that Fedor is fighting people who are much more experianced.  

If you look further, you will note that many of Fedor's opponents have lost mostly to other very high level elite fighters, whereas Rickson's opponents frequently lost to mediocre opponents.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 30, 2007)

Rook said:


> The other implication you can draw immediately from this information is that Fedor is fighting people who are much more experianced.
> 
> If you look further, you will note that many of Fedor's opponents have lost mostly to other very high level elite fighters, whereas Rickson's opponents frequently lost to mediocre opponents.


 
I wasn't even going to go that deep into it.  But reviewing the fight records you are correct here as well.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 30, 2007)

Rook said:


> This nonsense has got to stop. Many boxing fans and experts have a problem thinking of Marciano as a great fighter and he cleaned out his division and demolished multiple HOF fighters. Rickson was one of the better fighters of his era, but his legend comes out of matches in an era when he was beating Brazil's best streetfighters, not international elite athletes and modern world class fighters. Rickson never beat any of the major fighters that were available to him even in the mid 90s when he was young enought to still compete head to head, and few of those fighters are all that feared today.


 
True again, but the diehard fans will never listen.  I'm a HUGE Rickson Gracie fan from the things I've seen of him.  For that matter I'm a fan of the entire clan and their "family art".  However, I can objectively put it in perspective.  There is always the claim of "back it up and document it".  All the backyard this and back in the day that is irrelelvant because it can't be proven.  The stuff that CAN be proven is what I used and based my discussion on.  ON PAPER (read: what can be proven and had been documented in text and film) there is no comparison for speculation.  But the diehard fans will always go Rickson is the greatest because he wnet undefeated.  Even if he fought 3 guys and was 3 and 0 there would be tons of fans saying he was undefeated and no one was ON HIS LEVEL.  Rickson's most impressive accomplishment is his sport Jiu Jitsu record.  His Sambo record includes a loss and his MMA record includes 10 victories over guys that lost to just about everyone they got in the ring with.  That doesn't mean Rickson sucked...but beating 8 tomatoe cans including 2 of them twice doesn't prove greatness either.  Unless you count his 2 victories over the "legendary" Zulu.  Oh wait....Zulu's record isn't documented either except for two losses to Rickson, but I HEARD Zulu was a bad man....


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 30, 2007)

Raiderbeast said:


> It's easy to talk about a guy on top of his game. Rickson isn't fighting anymore. Fedor is in his prime right now. In 10 years a discussion can be made but until Fedor reaches the level Rickson is on it's not even close. Pride fans and some MMA fans know about Fedor.. All Martial Artists know about Rickson Gracie.. That's the difference..


 
I'd venture to say that most martial artists know both of them.  All the martial artists I interact with know both names and that list spans the globe in one way or another.  So that's really not a difference...


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## Rook (Jan 30, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> True again, but the diehard fans will never listen. I'm a HUGE Rickson Gracie fan from the things I've seen of him. For that matter I'm a fan of the entire clan and their "family art". However, I can objectively put it in perspective. There is always the claim of "back it up and document it". All the backyard this and back in the day that is irrelelvant because it can't be proven. The stuff that CAN be proven is what I used and based my discussion on. ON PAPER (read: what can be proven and had been documented in text and film) there is no comparison for speculation. But the diehard fans will always go Rickson is the greatest because he wnet undefeated. Even if he fought 3 guys and was 3 and 0 there would be tons of fans saying he was undefeated and no one was ON HIS LEVEL. Rickson's most impressive accomplishment is his sport Jiu Jitsu record. His Sambo record includes a loss and his MMA record includes 10 victories over guys that lost to just about everyone they got in the ring with. That doesn't mean Rickson sucked...but beating 8 tomatoe cans including 2 of them twice doesn't prove greatness either. Unless you count his 2 victories over the "legendary" Zulu. Oh wait....Zulu's record isn't documented either except for two losses to Rickson, but I HEARD Zulu was a bad man....


 
Makes sense.  I don't have a problem with saying that Rickson was the best sport BJJ competitor for an extended period, although there are probably some who would object to that.  I suspect that even if Rickson did have 400 wins and no losses (and he can't prove that and his own father mocks the idea in public), that they would virtually all be against virtual nobodies from Brazil.  Zulu, while well known, had no formal training whatsoever, and at 220 lbs, was hardly a monster either.  Neither Rickson nor Zulu had any known victories against major fighters, although both had squashed some trained ones.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 30, 2007)

Rook said:


> Makes sense. I don't have a problem with saying that Rickson was the best sport BJJ competitor for an extended period, although there are probably some who would object to that. I suspect that even if Rickson did have 400 wins and no losses (*and he can't prove that and his own father mocks the idea in public)*, that they would virtually all be against virtual nobodies from Brazil. Zulu, while well known, had no formal training whatsoever, and at 220 lbs, was hardly a monster either. Neither Rickson nor Zulu had any known victories against major fighters, although both had squashed some trained ones.


 
Ssssssssshhhh. Don't tell anyone about that interview.


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## matt.m (Jan 30, 2007)

You know to make a comparison using the sport of bodybuilding.  Arnold Schwarzenegger has pulled the wagon for that sport since the early 70's.  They use him in BB pubs and for the cover boy to this day on a constant and continuous basis.  No Mr. Olympia since Arnold has reached such popularity and fanfare.  Not Frank Zane, Lee Haney, Dorian Yates, or Ronnie Coleman.  I am only naming multiple Olympia winners.

He had 2 losses in his career onstage.  However he wouldn't make it past the national level now.  It is based on "What has this person done for our sport?  Have they shaped and brought about a popularity surge?  Has this person been a positive or negative?"

So it really isn't Fedor could kill Gracie or vice versa, this is really a popularity contest.  By the way, for the record and the record books....a win is a win is a win.  Who cares if you beat another competitor in the octogon/ring whatever whether it is Joe Smith or Tito Ortiz.  They had to be at a certain level to be in the competition correct?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 30, 2007)

Different era's are always hard to compare in sports because the principals do not get a chance to compete against each other.  Rickson was great in his day and now Fedor is great in his.  The only thing we can say for sure is that the competition level is far superior now based on the quality of fighters being produced.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Jan 31, 2007)

Raiderbeast said:


> Pride fans and some MMA fans know about Fedor.. All Martial Artists know about Rickson Gracie.. That's the difference..


 
So you're saying all conclusions regarding a fighters ability should be based on the opinions of people who don't know much about the fighters in question, or the competitions they enter? Yes I can see how that would indeed result in an informed decision....


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 31, 2007)

matt.m said:


> By the way, for the record and the record books....a win is a win is a win. Who cares if you beat another competitor in the octogon/ring whatever whether it is Joe Smith or Tito Ortiz. They had to be at a certain level to be in the competition correct?


 
Ummmmm no. I have to disagree here.  There are many different skill levels in any athletic endeavor or league.  In the 90's would you be more impressed if a basketball team dominated the Chicago Bulls (Pippen, Jordan, et all) or if they dominated the Los Angeles Clippers?  By your rationale they had to be on or near the same level to be in the competition right? They were both NBA teams right?

For the records and record books...Fedor beat Several MUTLIPLE time champions.  Rickson did not. and that's on PAPER. There are several boxers in history who were undefeated heading into their bout with the current champ.  9 out of 10 times the ones that were undefeated fighting guys with losing records lost to the champ in dramatic fashion.  Especially in bouts were the standing Champ had fought and defended the title already.

Sorry but there are always levels within levels of any athletic endeavor. so the Joe Smith Tito Ortiz comment won't stand.  It does make a difference who the competition is and a win is not a win.


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## Odin (Jan 31, 2007)

Whats quite interesting is the different recoreds that different sites have on rickson 

sherdog has him down as 11-0

Where as this site right here http://groups.msn.com/CHINESEBOXINGRINGRECORDS/ricksongraciesrecord.msnw has him down as 79-01 

What I did find out is that Rickson has one documented loss against a man named Ron Trip in a match that lasted just 45 seconds ( it was a sambo compition tough he wasnt submitted)


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 31, 2007)

Odin said:


> Whats quite interesting is the different recoreds that different sites have on rickson
> 
> sherdog has him down as 11-0
> 
> ...


 
Problem is

1) There is no documentation of most of this

2) Check the names listed (Kung Fu Sensi?")

3) Since when are Sport Jiu Jitsu matches considered fights.  If that's the case I have over 300 victories by way of point fighting and Ju Jitsu submissions.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 31, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Ummmmm no. I have to disagree here. There are many different skill levels in any athletic endeavor or league. In the 90's would you be more impressed if a basketball team dominated the Chicago Bulls (Pippen, Jordan, et all) or if they dominated the Los Angeles Clippers? By your rationale they had to be on or near the same level to be in the competition right? They were both NBA teams right?
> 
> For the records and record books...Fedor beat Several MUTLIPLE time champions. *Rickson did not. and that's on PAPER*. There are several boxers in history who were undefeated heading into their bout with the current champ. 9 out of 10 times the ones that were undefeated fighting guys with losing records lost to the champ in dramatic fashion. Especially in bouts were the standing Champ had fought and defended the title already.
> 
> Sorry but there are always levels within levels of any athletic endeavor. so the Joe Smith Tito Ortiz comment won't stand. *It does make a difference who the competition is and a win is not a win*.


 
As a student of Ricksons when he had his bouts in Japan...the Japanese promoters had, for national pride purposes, pressured him to throw the fights. Rickson did not. So, after he beat the shoot-fighter he faced in a documented ring, the Japanese sent over their NUMBER ONE SHOOT FIGHTING CHAMP of the day to beat Rickson in his own school. Rickson had kept very tight ownership of the tape.

Rickson came to class one night, and for those of us too stubborn and curious to leave, showed us the tape. A mass of Japanese press had followed the shootfighter. Luis called Rickson at home about the problem; a mass of Japanese press in the studio with some showboat, and Rickson went down there to deal with it...in his pajamas. He kicked out all but one camera, and proceeded to have his bout with the guy. For making him get out of bed and for disturbing his neighbor businesses in the strip mall, Rickson beat the crap out of the guy before choking him out. He let the press back in the door, just as the guy was waking up...so they could plaster pictures of their bloodied hero all over their sports mags. Even though annoyed, Rickson said he had a lot of respect for the figter, as he never quit trying.

That guy wasn't a tomato can; he was sent to recover the pride of Japan, lost in the vale tudo matches to what the Japanese called, "a south american banana-eating monkey" (referencing the Gracie diet). It's not a documented win. And if you spent any time around Rickson back then, this kind of thing happened literally several times a week, with most of the comers having some titles to back up their right to take a shot at the champ. We had Pan Am and Olympic wrestling & judo medalists FROM AROUND THE WORLD, kickboxing and karate champs from around the globe, and titled representatives from pretty much any contact martial art or sport you can name. We even had guys talk smack, boast in the papers, and not show up...so that Rickson would eventually bring the fight to them, and make them walk away in front of a crowd. 

Dennis Alexio -- back then, the number one full-contact kickboxing champ -- kept bragging he could KO Rickson. He also kept holding out for a purse. Rickson got tired of the smack talking (the Brazilians don't really have a cultural reference for saying something, and not meaning it for the sake of ring publicity...you talk stink, they think it's on), and travelled to an exhibition bout Alexio was doing in Hawaii. He stood at the entrance Alexio used to get into the ring, and waited for him to come out. Alexio was show-boating his win as he sarted for the exit, and saw Rickson waiting for him with that pissed look. Alexio made for a different exit.

What made Rickson great was not the number of documented wins against guys with records...there was no big MMA movement back then outside of Brazil, as it was only starting in the US and Japan, so there was no huge pool of opportunity then for guys to get records. Back then, you simply showed up, agreed on terms (i.e., no eyes), and went at it. In Brazil, he was already a legend...he had already beat most of the up-and-coming either rolling on the mat in training, or at seminars, or in challenge matches. So, when they had a vale tudo match there, the guys in the know already knew..."oh yeah, Rickson trained the guy who trained the guy in the blue trunks, and slapped the guy in the yellow trunks around like a little beyotch in a challenge match at the Rio school."

That's how Rickson did business. 400 documented matches? Of course not...no documents. But you gotta figure...2 classes a week, with some bozo showing up to call him out at each class = 104 bouts a year. And these are fights, without referees, rules, purses. Many nights had guys lined up waiting for a chance. And he took all comers. Some were tomato cans; many were champions in their own rights. And, if you knew Rickson, you would know he would never brag about it. Unlike the noisier brothers and cousins, Rickson keeps his cards pretty tight to his chest. He'll show up, kick everyone out, beat the guy, then leave. If you ask him about it later, he'll just say "The two guys who need to know what happened know", and leave it at that. That's where being beer drinking buddies with his inner-circle guys with copies of the tapes comes in handy...you see some famous MMA guy show up for an interview with a shiner when there was no fight, and find out later that it's from a Rickson "sparring" session from an insider...he shows you the tape. Then you go to Rickson to confirm (without telling him you already know), and he gets obtuse, evasive, and zen-like in his replies. That's how you know.

Will his official record ever be as good as Fedors? Nope. There weren't that many MMA events back then, and he agreed to stay out of competition in the states so his brothers could have a chance to build some fame and cash. Has he only beaten chumps? Well, before he "got" the importance of fighters deserving better purses than they were getting, he didn't turn anyone down. In fact he went to get them if he needed to, just to put the rumors to rest and make his point. That was how Rickson did business, and that is why e will, to me, always be the champ. Beause his records were from sidewalks, bars, beaches, picnics, challenges at seminars, and anywhere his detractors could find him, or he could find them.

Regards,

Dave...once a student of Rickson before most of you even heard of MMA, and still an admirer having been in the room for many challenge matches.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 31, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> As a student of Ricksons when he had his bouts in Japan....


 
As much as I respect everything you just posted and most of what you have posted in the past (probably about 99.9% of it ) I keep saying ON PAPER. Everything you just mentioned about this challenge that challenge etc etc. is heresay and folk lore to any that didn't see it. It's a "I gotta take your word for it" deal. That's why I love speculative topics about this. All anyone can really do is speculate. The problem is when the speculations are based on speculative evidence. You say you've seen this stuff and I'll believe YOU on it. But many of the Rickson fans go off of what they HEARD about his legend. I'm versed in Ju Jitsu (don't get me started on the differences between Ju and Jiu and BJJ and Judo etc. that's another topic) and I'll be first to admit the way he executes his techniques is light years ahead of MOST that I've seen. But that's my personal experience. But you can't necessarily prove that sort of thing, it's my opinion based on my observations of 1) his mechanics, 2) others mechanics and 3) the "textbook" version of whatever I'm observing. Man I love a good circular discussion...as long as there are thinkers involved. But it'll keep coming back to...."he did what? prove it." On another tangent "Who knows how much behind Fedor has kicked behind closed doors." Rickson's "back alley" record always comes up during discussions like this but no one ever brings the other guy's "back alley" record into the discussion. Then again the other guy usually has the edge in documentation which is another reason why Rickson is such a legend. He's a mystery man to most and people love to hype the mystery man. How many tournament and MMA victories did Bruce Lee and Ed Parker have?.....exactly. Good stuff!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 31, 2007)

The thing I have always liked most about the Gracie family is their approachability on these things. Literally...if you came out to california and trained with his crew for a spell, you would eventually cross paths (unless you also surf, in which case you'd cross paths sooner). Then you could ask him yourself.

Rickson's just not a braggard. Prideful, yes. Boastful, no. And you're right...the circular nature of these discussions is often silly. My loyalty goes to the man for his exquisite technique. He can fine tune your mount, dismount, transitions, holds, escapes, etc., in a way that leaves you wondering why everybody doesn't know this/do this/go out of their way to find out about it and commit it to memory.

D.

PS - I'm willing to bet Fedor has his lion's share of alley matches, too. You just kind of get them when you're in this hobby for a living, and near the top. Thankfully, I'll never have cause to find out just how destructive he could really be.

PPS -- Since you're a fellow kenpoista...we had a guy show up one night, bragging on his kenpo credentials, and having "never been beat". Rickson tied him up in a crucifix in a blink. No cameras on. I bet the guy is still out there saying he's undefeated.


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## Odin (Feb 2, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Problem is
> 
> 1) There is no documentation of most of this
> 
> ...


 
POINT 3=> i think was what Helio was refering to in that interview.

Rickson seems to count them.


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## Shogun (Feb 2, 2007)

on the topic of rickson's technique...as Kembudo-Kai Kempoka mentioned, it is simply amazing how he can also teach it. I am under Pedro Sauer who is a 6th degree black belt under rickson, and pedro's technique is known as the most technical in the world...even more technical than rickson. but according to pedro sauer, rickson's technique is simply flawless. he plans his assault 100 moves in advance an never misses a beat. his timing, breathing pattern, etc.


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## rutherford (Feb 2, 2007)

Bruce Lee could kick both their asses at once!  It's too bad he's dead!

:barf:


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## Odin (Feb 6, 2007)

rutherford said:


> Bruce Lee could kick both their asses at once! It's too bad he's dead!
> 
> :barf:


 
lol!!

you ever heard the Bruce lee vale tudo stories?


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