# Effectiveness



## Bushido

To me, after having practicing Aikido for 3 years, I realized that it is really effective vs grabs, put totally illusionnary and useless vs strikes. What do you think?

I write this with total respect for aikido or its practicers, just want to exchange ideas/opinion with a freespirit...

-Bushido :samurai:


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## ukemi

It depends on how you train.  If you train hard against strikes, effectivness will follow.  As Ikeda sensei often says "It's not that Aikido doesn't work, it's that your Aikido doesn't work"


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## bscastro

I agree. I don't do Aikido, but I've met several Aikidoka (is that the right term). Some are very good against strikes, some against grabs, some not good at all. It is like this in all martial arts. It's about how you train.

Cheers,
Bryan


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## Despairbear

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *To me, after having practicing Aikido for 3 years, I realized that it is really effective vs grabs, put totally illusionnary and useless vs strikes. What do you think?
> 
> I write this with total respect for aikido or its practicers, just want to exchange ideas/opinion with a freespirit...
> 
> -Bushido :samurai: *




Sounds like you need to study for 3 more years.



Despair Bear


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## Bushido

I'm used to the brazilian jiujitsu kind of effectiveness.

-Bushido


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## ukemi

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *I'm used to the brazilian jiujitsu kind of effectiveness.
> 
> -Bushido *



I'm not sure what you mean by this.  I've trained with many BBJ folks.  They are good at what they train at, just like everyone else.


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## Jas

In my style of Aikido (Nihon Goshin) we practice mostly against strikes we also do alot of work with grips. Starting when you reach Blue belt you have to complite a defence line to advance to the next level, from blue to green theres 30 attacks, from green to purple theres 40 and so on. ( sorry about the spelling )

  :soapbox:


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *To me, after having practicing Aikido for 3 years, I realized that it is really effective vs grabs, put totally illusionnary and useless vs strikes. What do you think?
> 
> I write this with total respect for aikido or its practicers, just want to exchange ideas/opinion with a freespirit...
> 
> -Bushido :samurai: *




In Aikido there is no difference between grabs or strikes.
Aikido bases it's movements on reacting to the "energi", so if it's a grab or strike, it'll be the same. 

But it is harder to learn to defend yourself against a punch, than grab, that's why , I think, that aikido allways starts off with grabs.

/Yari


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## old_sempai

:asian:

I was under the impression that the formal training program only required a student do a self-defense line test for Ikyu and Shodan.  Apparently your instructor has raised the bar on testing standards, and there is certainly nothing wrong with this since sooner or later the SDL must be accomplished before being promoted.  By the way how was the NGA Seminar?  I was unable to attend because of family commitments.

:asian: :asian:


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## Bushido

I think that the way aikidoka throws punch are unrealistic. They "give" their arm to the defender. If an aikidoka had to defend himself on the streets vs punch, he would have an enormous surprise. Give the attacker a pair of light-impact gloves and make him attack, you'll see. I think it would be nice to re-think the way aikidoka punch to adapt it to real self-defence and keep aikido evolving bacause, like Christian Tissier Sensei said: "Aikido should not be a conclusion, a rigid responce, it should flow and adapt to modern day people in its defensive form".

Peace

-Bushido


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## old_sempai

:asian:

In the style known as Nihon Goshin Aikido Uke does not telegraph or throw unrealistic strikes at a more advanced student.  Although many beginning students will telegraph their punch, but only until they become skilled in technique.  Further, in this particular style blocks, parries, atemi [the various kicks and punching drills] as well as joint locks are an integral part of the training.  And almost forgot to add that it also includes becoming adept at defending against an attacker brandishing a weapon.

:asian: :asian:


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## Jas

I work in a maximum security prison in New York State (Attica), I have used Aikido twice to defend myself from an attacking inmate, and it don't get more real than that!!!!!!!


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Jas _
> 
> *I work in a maximum security prison in New York State (Attica), I have used Aikido twice to defend myself from an attacking inmate, and it don't get more real than that!!!!!!! *



Were these grabs? Punches? Weapon atatcks?

I have no doubt about aikido's effectiveness against certain attacks, but I did it for a year and I too felt iffy about defending punches. A committed punch was OK but not a quick, boxer-style punch that didn't stay out there long enough to grab a hold of. Of course, this was only a year's training in the art!


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## Eraser

ok here's my 2 cents...


I believe that (and im sure there will be exceptions to my beliefs) that Most attackers are so focused on the attack.. that they themselves don't plan if something goes wrong.. hmm what i mean is.. if the attackers energy is focusing on wether its his fist, knife, strike..  they are hoping to connect with that first blow..  (as appose to boxing like jabs)  So if you can avoid or use his energy.. then it works for you!!

And if you find youself in a confrontation with a boxer.. WHAT WERE YOU DOING THERE!!  lol   

I study Hapkido now.. but i did take Aikido for 2 years..  I loved using the attacker's own energy against themselves..

As for wether its a punch, grab or strike..  with time in your  training you should learn to defend against them all..


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *I think that the way aikidoka throws punch are unrealistic. They "give" their arm to the defender. If an aikidoka had to defend himself on the streets vs punch, he would have an enormous surprise. Give the attacker a pair of light-impact gloves and make him attack, you'll see. I think it would be nice to re-think the way aikidoka punch to adapt it to real self-defence and keep aikido evolving bacause, like Christian Tissier Sensei said: "Aikido should not be a conclusion, a rigid responce, it should flow and adapt to modern day people in its defensive form".
> 
> Peace
> 
> -Bushido *




If an Aikidoka trows an unrealistic punch, then that's the problem. But like most MA I know of, you start off with basics: simple punches, movements and so on. Nothing that you can "use" on the street unless the person throws you the exact same attack.
So as you get better, the attacks get harder and more difficult.

The Aikido I pratice emphesizes on flow, and alot of the basics are "made" to give you the understanding of flow. But the self defence part is not forgotten. Sorry to say, a lot of aikido people get "stuck " in the flowing part, and then this can become something unrealistic.

I think you have to remember that the MA is no better than the person doing it. 


/Yari


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## Bushido

I respect your point :asian:, but even having seen high level Aikido Masters in action, it is still unrealistic to me. There is no way an aikidoka will grab "wild punchs" street type attacks. NO way. In a real confrontation, there is not only one big punch thrown that you can use against the attacker, there is a serie of fast wild punch. Aikido against grabs is awesome, I admit that. The real world is not West Side Story, it is simple, direct, brutal.

-Bushido :samurai:


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## old_sempai

:asian: 

The purpose of blocking, or parrying is to deflect or redirect, execute atemi and finish with technique.  We could talk this to death, but the fact that JAS is a corrections officer and has used this in his work in a prison full of hard cases contradicts the belief that Aikido is "ineffective."  As for his, and my style - Nihon Goshin many times I use the analogy that our style is not unlike the moves demonstrated by Seigal in some of his movies.  

For myself, I know this style is effective since I had occassion to use it in an encounter that took place about 8 years ago in a crowded shopping mall.  And the first two witnesses on scene within a minute of the confrontation were 2 off-duty cops that had no idea that I had done a technique.  They thought the guy swung so hard that he had missed and landed on his butt.  Looking back it was interesting to note that the poor guy never knew what happened, all he thought was that an over fifty guy somehow was able to duck his punch.  As they say: "Never let the mark know he's been had."  Besides I didn't relish going to court and having a defense lawyer know I'm a trained MA, then he would have lunched all over me on behalf of his "poor, misguided" client having been taken advantage of.

 :asian: :asian:


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> * The real world is not West Side Story, it is simple, direct, brutal.
> 
> -Bushido :samurai: *




And so is Aikido.

You have to remember that Aikido is not only praticed for selfdefense. But Aikido has many aspects which different people cultivate.

Can you tell me what Aikido is, and what it stands for? Because my understanding of Aikido is it's principles, and principles can be used on any attack, which also is my experience and belife. 


Respect
Yari


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## arnisador

I think *old_sempai* makes a couple of good points--one being that a block per se need not be done but that a punch could be redirected; the other is that such a technique may make the person look like they did this to themselves--avoiding certain legal issues.


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## old_sempai

:asian: 

Arnisador recognized each point: 

First; Aikido is effective, but its effectiveness depends on many factors.  Physical training along with mental development such as Musin muso, sen-no-sen, go-no-sen, etc.

Second; the fact that a trained MA can suddenly find themselves in a legal firestorm when a defense lawyer begins presenting their client as a victim BECAUSE your training also includes noble aspects of "Universal Harmony," and he would go on and on and on, ad naseum, possibly convincing the court that you could have avoided all of what transpired, blah - blah - blah.

Not unlike the true story about a farmer in Idaho in the 70's that got tired of being robbed when he wasn't home.  Rigged a shotgun and when the same burglar broke in and was shot subsequently sued the farmer for his injuries.  The Burglar won his case.

Let me leave you with something I came across some 35 odd years ago while in the Navy.  There is a maxim written by Alfred Mahan that went something like this: "Its good thing to have been tried in court and found "not guilty," but its better not to have been charged at all."  

Something to think about with regard to MA and the Law.

:asian: :asian:


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## kimura

> _Originally posted by Yari _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> In Aikido there is no difference between grabs or strikes.
> Aikido bases it's movements on reacting to the "energi", so if it's a grab or strike, it'll be the same.
> 
> But it is harder to learn to defend yourself against a punch, than grab, that's why , I think, that aikido allways starts off with grabs.
> 
> /Yari *



Really good answer. It is mistaken by many aikido teachers, that a grab as Aihanmi and gyakuhanmi are actual attacks. They are not !!!  However, because of the grabs it is easier to understand the flow of energy in an attack. If we begin our practice with kicks and strikes and not grabs, the students often end up blocking the energy, which is a major mistake in Aikido. The grab is a prestep towards understanding harder energy as in the punch. This does not mean that students should not practice punch and kicks, but they have to be aware of the flow in energy of an attack first !


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## kimura

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *I think that the way aikidoka throws punch are unrealistic. They "give" their arm to the defender. If an aikidoka had to defend himself on the streets vs punch, he would have an enormous surprise. Give the attacker a pair of light-impact gloves and make him attack, you'll see. I think it would be nice to re-think the way aikidoka punch to adapt it to real self-defence and keep aikido evolving bacause, like Christian Tissier Sensei said: "Aikido should not be a conclusion, a rigid responce, it should flow and adapt to modern day people in its defensive form".
> 
> Peace
> 
> -Bushido *



I agree that many aikidoka cannot throw a good punch, but it is a mistake to think that this is because of Aikido itself. In many dojos they actually learn punching too. I practiced for a few years in Japan, where one of the Aikido senseis used to be a pro boxer, before he learned Aikido. He teaches many ways of punching, but he also teaches effective Aikido against Boxing. In Aikido we do not "give" our arm to the defender, but we give energy in the form of a grab, punch or kick. It is up to the defender to use that energy as he finds acceptable in the principles of Aikido.


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## Bushido

I respect all of your ideas and opinion, but personnaly,  I dont think you know what a real agression is.

Peace

-Bushido


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## kimura

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *I respect your point :asian:, but even having seen high level Aikido Masters in action, it is still unrealistic to me. There is no way an aikidoka will grab "wild punchs" street type attacks. NO way. In a real confrontation, there is not only one big punch thrown that you can use against the attacker, there is a serie of fast wild punch. Aikido against grabs is awesome, I admit that. The real world is not West Side Story, it is simple, direct, brutal.
> 
> -Bushido :samurai: *



I do not know how much Aikido you have seen, but read what I wrote earlier about one of my Aikido teachers in Japan who used to be a proboxer.

Another thing. Aikido is not all about catching the arm that is being ounched with. First of all it is about Maai 'distance', then Timing, and if you have the right timing, you can grab the arm, but you can also go to the body, and then it does not matter if a person jabs or do other strange 'unexpected' movements.


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## kimura

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *I think old_sempai makes a couple of good points--one being that a block per se need not be done but that a punch could be redirected; the other is that such a technique may make the person look like they did this to themselves--avoiding certain legal issues. *



I wonder why you and several others keep talking about blocks and parries. I have practiced Aikido for several years, and I have never met a teacher (or when I teach myself) who teaches blocks in Aikido. However, I always teach that there are no blocks in Aikido as it is a waste of time and also a creator of who is biggest and strongest.  

Please tell me in which Aikido styles they block and parry, as I would really like to see that kind of Aikido. To me that sounds like European Ju-Jitsu !?


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by kimura _
> 
> *I wonder why you and several others keep talking about blocks and parries. *



I was saying just the opposite--that blocking is not the only way of dealing with an attack. Energy could be redirected, or blended with, without doing what one would think of as a block.

As to your question, "Complete Aikido" by R. Suenaka with C. Watson (Tuttle, 1997, paperback) describes some techniques as parries (in in _mune-tsuki kubi-otoshi tenkan_, pg.250, and _mune-tsuki kokyu-nage irimi_, pg.252), deflections (in _mune-tsuki ude-osae tenkan_, pg.253), and the like.



> *
> Please tell me in which Aikido styles they block and parry, as I would really like to see that kind of Aikido.*



This style is Suenaka-ha Tetsugaku-ho Aikido (Wadokai organization). A web search on the name turns up several links:
http://suenakaaikido.tripod.com/abc's_of_aikido.htm
http://www.geocities.com/j_s_kelley/AikidoVideo.htm


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *I respect all of your ideas and opinion, but personnaly,  I dont think you know what a real agression is.
> 
> Peace
> 
> -Bushido *



Kimura and me have the same answers, so I'm not sure who your ansering to, but it really doesn't matter when it applies as an answer to what we both mean.

Just because I don't agree, you think I don't understand and haven't tried it? 

That's your opinion, and nothing more.

/Yari


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> This style is Suenaka-ha Tetsugaku-ho Aikido (Wadokai organization). A web search on the name turns up several links:
> http://suenakaaikido.tripod.com/abc's_of_aikido.htm
> http://www.geocities.com/j_s_kelley/AikidoVideo.htm *



This looks interestting.
Thanks for the post!

But I got to add that the video from both links don't show any "blocks". And it makes me think that we have to be clear on what we mean by blocks...  My opinion is that blocks are force to force (an arnis metaphor), but what I'm thinking of is a go-with-the-force metaphor.

But I've never heard of Suenaka-ha Tetsugaku-ho Aikido or seen it. It would be very interessting to try.

/Yari


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## kimura

Sorry about implying that you talked about blocking as Aikido. I noticed that several mentioned blocking, and to me just mentioning blocking and Aikido is a misunderstanding of Aikidos principles.    So sorry about that. It was not you I wanted to pick on !!:asian:


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## kimura

I forgot to say that the former was written as a reply to arnisador !!


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## kimura

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> This style is Suenaka-ha Tetsugaku-ho Aikido (Wadokai organization). A web search on the name turns up several links:
> http://suenakaaikido.tripod.com/abc's_of_aikido.htm
> http://www.geocities.com/j_s_kelley/AikidoVideo.htm *



The link you attached with the video, shown perfectly well, what has been discussed earlier, that some Aikidoka cannot throw a decent punch... It really s.... !!


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## Aikikitty

_I_ can't throw a decent punch!  My sensei (when he has time) will try to help me to punch/attack better (I'm a lousy uke ) but right now I still punch like a weak girl whose grew up with her mother telling her never to hit anybody.  Which, in fact, is true!   :shrug: 

Robyn


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by kimura _
> 
> *I forgot to say that the former was written as a reply to arnisador !! *



Thanks, I understood! I did Aikido for a year many years ago and found it most interesting. I did come away with some understanding of how one blends with the opponent's energy rather than trying to stop his or her force. Fascinating stuff, but I always felt that Aikido wasn't for me because I wasn't _fast_ enough--I'm below average in speed and the techniques seemed to me to require speed. Perhaps if I had stuck with it I would have changed my mind, but I went to Goju-Ryu Karate which was a good fit for me.


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## arnisador

In thinking about it, I really only did Aikido for one semester.

I was at the bookstore earlier today. In Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere : An Illustrated Introduction
 by Adele Westbrook and Oscar Ratti the term parry is also often used--parry an attack at the start of a technique. This raises the question of course just what is meant by "parry" when used by these authors.


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## kimura

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *In thinking about it, I really only did Aikido for one semester.
> 
> I was at the bookstore earlier today. In Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere : An Illustrated Introduction
> by Adele Westbrook and Oscar Ratti the term parry is also often used--parry an attack at the start of a technique. This raises the question of course just what is meant by "parry" when used by these authors. *



I really like that book !!! However, using the word parry or block makes many students misunderstand the idea of Aikido.

What style did you practice. I have seen and tried different styles myself, and even though there is similarities in the principles of Aikido, there is a world of differences in the actual performance of the techniques. The style I fell for was made by Shoji Nishio. He has tried to make a dynamic Aikido, which takes defence against other martial arts into consideration (mainly Karate as he is 6 th or 7th  Dan), and not only some street punk.  Nishio Senseis way of moving seems really fast when he is attacked, but actually it is more about timing. He is 74 years old, and not fast at all, but his timing makes him seem really fast + he is only moving "enough" and nothing more when he is attacked. After practicing in Japan at his dojo for about 2½ years, he made me realize that Aikido is not about doing ikkyo, shihonage or other known traditional techniques. He made me come to a conclusion that when doing Aikido some Aikido principles has to be followed.  From that time I made 3 principles of doing Aikido, which I always include in my classes:
1. Never go against the energy 
2. Never use force (not more than it takes to lift 2 litres of milk from the floor)
3. Never open yourself unless you need energy

If these principles are withheld I believe it can be called Aikido no matter what kind of technique is performed.  Of course it could be argued that there should be a fourth principle which is about not hurting the opponent, but showing him the way of peaceful solution, but I think this should be a principle of life, and therefore integrated in all, and thereby also Aikido.

Sorry for the bla. bla. bla. on the comment on a book...


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## kimura

> _Originally posted by The Opal Dragon _
> 
> *I can't throw a decent punch!  My sensei (when he has time) will try to help me to punch/attack better (I'm a lousy uke ) but right now I still punch like a weak girl whose grew up with her mother telling her never to hit anybody.  Which, in fact, is true!   :shrug:
> 
> Robyn  *



The best way to learn to understand the defence in Aikido is to understand an attack, so study attacks in fx. boxing, karate etc. that way you both learn to give a realistic energy in your uke performance and you learn the weaknesses of other arts, which helps you close the gaps of weaknesses in your own style...!:asian:


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## arnisador

I am pretty sure I studied standard Aikido, but it was a long time ago.


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## nbcdecon

I have learned some of the Aikido here in Japan not so much to be a great source on the subject but the stuff I was introduced to is much like the S.C.A.R.S system with my Sensei head butting and finger jabbing us to show the combat applications of the take downs. There are some Aikido tourney's that should real punchers and kicks against the Aikido masters. ( some times that get blasted but other times they throw there foe on their heads. About 50/50


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## Diablo

> _Originally posted by nbcdecon _
> 
> *There are some Aikido tourney's that should real punchers and kicks against the Aikido masters. ( some times that get blasted but other times they throw there foe on their heads. About 50/50 *



It's interesting that you mentioned Aikido competitions, because I wonder if there are any here in Texas.  It is my understanding that O'Sensei was against competition.  I found an interesting article on Aikido and competition: http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/_article.asp?ArticleID=768
.  Anyways, I practiced Okinawan Goju Ryu karate as a teen, and now practice Seidokan Aikido.  Some of you questioned whether Aikido has blocks or parrys.  I can not see why anyone would practice blocks in Aikido because one of the first things we were taught is to get out of the way, to not be there if your opponent is striking or whatever.  Of course, one of the essences of Aikido is to blend in.  We have parrys, but is is only used to redirect our opponent so that we can apply one technique or another.  I believe someone even asked what a parry is.  If you've ever watched them Karate-Kid movies, it is basically the motion of his hands doing the "wax on, wax off".
As far as Busido goes, nothing can be said to change his mind because his mind is made up about the effectiveness of Aikido.  With all do respect, maybe you should try another art because it seems that you have lost your flare for Aikido.  There are some in our dojo who have come from Tai Kwan Do, and Kenpo Karate and are now practicing Aikido.  Maybe training in another art will make you a better rounded person (for fighting, self defense).  
All arts have there shortcomings.  You mentioned Brazillian Jiu Jitsu.  An Aikidoka would have a better chance at survival against multiple attackers than a BJJ practitioner.  As for the reality part of Aikido, if you have ever seen the Ultimate Fighting Championships, it is rare that any of the winners win using there respected art.  The Gracie brothers are one of the few exceptions.  The Kenpo guys, ninjitsus, Tai boxers, etc. usually win by swinging and just hoping that they make contact, not by using some rare technique only a few can master.  With that in mind, an Aikidoka may not use Aikido in a street fight, but it is rather a tool for him to use if the situation fits.  
P.S. Bushido, I will have to hand it to you, because controversy is usually what keeps a post alive, not everybody getting along agreeing with everything.

It's all about the connection.
Diablo


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## Chiduce

I feel the flowing principles of Aiki are the key to being effective against punches, strikes, onrushing attack's etc,. I use these principles (push-pull, etc,.) in the kenpo system which i teach. They are the most effective tools which we have in developing realistic workable counter-striking defensives against violent street attacks. A stand straight in front of you confrontation is not as probable in a real world street confrontation, accept for an attack being attempted in a club or bar type setting. The street attack will come from an obscure angle or semi- blind to blind side. The ability to yield, and adapt to the actual angle of attack leads to the flowing principles revealing themselves in sequences of counter-strike and choke throwing motions to fail the attacker. Since we are not an offensive school, and teach no offensive techniques, the principles of Aiki Flowing serve us honorably! :asian: Ami Tou Fou. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## cdhall

Hello everyone,

I don't study Aikido but I have visited a dojo where a friend of mine trains.  His instructor says he has "interceded" in "situations" as a "befuddled old man" and foiled several agressions.  

I've also seen some of the classes and these guys can take pretty much anything coming at them (punch, body, weapon) and put it somewhere else without being touched.

I once considered training in Aikido and on one of my Kenpo tests, I developed a technique with no block or strike as a tribute to Aikido.  I don't know how much it had in common with Aikido but I trapped a punch and drop the guy to the floor with an armbar.  I never "hit" him, but he was totally at my mercy at the end.

I don't understand how Bushido can say that he does not believe the Aikidoka understand real agression.  I think he betrays a lack of experience.

In my investigation I have also found that a Kenpo buddy of mine concluded that the Aikido guys he looked at really stunk until they had about 5 years of training at which point they were very effective.  This being the case, I really don't see how someone can dismiss Aikido when they have less than 2-3 years of experience.  There seems to be a high learning curve.  I've been to demos where multiple people are tossed like rag dolls and they are charging their instructor sometimes even while they are armed.  

I think Bushido is being fantastically disrespectful.  I think he needs to confront an Instructor to see if his opinions truly hold water.

By the way, Steven Segal studies a form of Aikido right?  Traditional Aikido does not have his strikes, correct?  The guy I went to go see would do a demo and stop to say stuff like "If we wanted to hit the guy, you could do so here...."

I know students in many arts that don't look all that deadly after 1-3 years of training but this does not mean that the system they study is flawed to uselessness.
:asian:


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## kimura

There are many arguments wether or not Aikido is effective in real life situations.  I understand both the arguments against and for effectiveness. The important thing to be aware of is that Aikido as a martial art has been made for both developing an effective selfdefence and for developing a certain attitude towards life. In the eyes of a martial artist who has not practiced aikido or only for a few years, the two things contradict eachother a bit, as effectiveness often is seen as 'can I rip the attackers arm or legs of and mail it to the north and south pole'?  In Aikido we have to defend ourselves without becoming the violent part. We have to wait for an energy giving by the opponent, so he is always deciding want he want us to do with him. If I injure an opponent, it is not his fault because he attacked me, but it is my fault because I could not control myself. There is a huge difference in the attitude of Aikido and other martial arts in that sense. I believe, as it was mentioned previously, that it is not possible to reach that level of understanding Aikido both physically and mentally only with a few years of practice...  When I say a few years, I believe more than 6 -7 years.  

Even after practicing for that long many Aikido people still cannot use Aikido as self defence. In many dojos Aikido is taught without considering real life movements. They "give" themselves as attackers with no mind, meaning that as an attacker they do not protect themselves as a person would do in real life (if he is clever enough). This has nothing to do with the actual Aikido styles, but simply the level of the teachers. Many teachers either do not understand this part of Aikido, or their level is so low that they do not know how to defend themselves. In that case they often turn to teach a kind of spiritual Aikido, which is only half of the intention of Aikido.

To end this long speech, I would like to stress that Aikido is both about developing an effective self defence system and also a mental attitude, where the "defender" shows a better way by not hurting the person attacking. Keeping such a calm mind in an aggressive situation require many years of practice. 

It is very understandable that someone comments negatively after a few years of practice also they might have had inexperienced or bad teachers. However, my advice is practice more and practice with different teachers in different styles if you really want to understand Aikido !!:asian:


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## old_sempai

:asian:

If while defending myself the attacker gets injured, I have no feelings of regret since it was their own undoing.  When Aikido [my style is Nihon Goshin] is executed with an attitude of Mushin Muso [mind of no mind] then any resultant injury is an outcome of their own dynamic energy being turned completely upon themselves.  Why should I feel pity for someone who minutes earlier wanted to attack, injure or even end my life.  To paraphrase General Scwartzkopf [sp?]  "Forgiveness is what God does, my job is to defend myself and if the result of that finds the individual meeting him - who am I to say NO."

The Universe is not a peaceable warm fuzzy place, it is filled with many that prey upon others.  And I have chosen not to be victim or prey, nor do I wish to perpetuate violence.  However, to paraphrase once more, this time the words of Obata Toshoshiro, Soke - Shinkendo: "The purpose of self-defense is to be able to confront aggression, surrround it, and contain it within itself."

:asian: :asian:


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## Bushido

Here's is my lack of my experience: 20 years kyokushinkai karate, 5 years  brazilian jiujitsu, 5 years thai-boxing, 3 years aikido, 4-5 years taichi. I'm no beginner in martial art, are you cdhall?

By the way, I WAS VERY respectful of aikido and of anyone ideas on the subject. Just because I dont agree means I'm disrespectful.

I still believe Aikido is the "ideal" of what a martial art should be in an ideal world, not is this world. Aikido vs grab is VERY good, but vs strikes it is not very effective. Maybe if a friend i drunk and wants to punch you, maybe it would be effective then. Vs strikes it can work, but it is VERY VERY VERY VERY difficult. Strikes in aikido gives a false sense of effectiveness and security. One guy on the streets does not punch like most aikidoka do in training. Once again, give the attacker a pair of boxing gloves or mma gloves and try your traditionnal aikido, you would be surprise. Some people are "hermetic", close-minded, they talk alot and they dont experience. Try some new things and you'll see. 

Even for hardcore martial arts and all their techniques, a confrontation on the streets is not an easy thing, imagine with aikido.

I do not bash on aikido, I do think it is a wonderful art, but has some lack of effectiveness.

I dont think people understand or realize what a real confrontation is...

Peace

-Bushido


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## kimura

> _Originally posted by old_sempai _
> 
> *:asian:
> 
> If while defending myself the attacker gets injured, I have no feelings of regret since it was their own undoing.  When Aikido [my style is Nihon Goshin] is executed with an attitude of Mushin Muso [mind of no mind] then any resultant injury is an outcome of their own dynamic energy being turned completely upon themselves.  Why should I feel pity for someone who minutes earlier wanted to attack, injure or even end my life.  To paraphrase General Scwartzkopf [sp?]  "Forgiveness is what God does, my job is to defend myself and if the result of that finds the individual meeting him - who am I to say NO."
> 
> The Universe is not a peaceable warm fuzzy place, it is filled with many that prey upon others.  And I have chosen not to be victim or prey, nor do I wish to perpetuate violence.  However, to paraphrase once more, this time the words of Obata Toshoshiro, Soke - Shinkendo: "The purpose of self-defense is to be able to confront aggression, surrround it, and contain it within itself."
> 
> :asian: :asian: *



I believe there is good in all people also the ones that want to hurt you, but they probably do not know themselves. I do not say it is always possible to defend oneself without injuring anyone, but it has to be the goal. Why would you go to the same extremes as an agressor? It is not ok to hurt someone just because they want to hurt you. What should be done is controlling the situation instead. It has never been the idea of Aikido to turn the force against an agressor, but instead using this force or energy to show wthe agressor that his way is a wrong way.

Some years ago I got attacked one night when I worked on a gasstation as a student helper. I was attacked by a person with a bottle trying to hit me on the side of my head. I made a simple kokyu nage and after that an arm lock. He could not move but kept yelling that he was going to kill me when he got up. I tightened the lock and told him that he is going to decide if he want it to hurt or not. After a while he came to his senses I released him, and he apologized for his behavior.  I am pretty sure that if I had done to him what he wanted to do to me, I would probably have been in jail, or he would have found some friends to wop my hiny...  

Martial arts is not 'an eye for an eye'!!


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## kimura

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *Here's is my lack of my experience: 20 years kyokushinkai karate, 5 years  brazilian jiujitsu, 5 years thai-boxing, 3 years aikido, 4-5 years taichi. I'm no beginner in martial art, are you cdhall?
> 
> By the way, I WAS VERY respectful of aikido and of anyone ideas on the subject. Just because I dont agree means I'm disrespectful.
> 
> I still believe Aikido is the "ideal" of what a martial art should be in an ideal world, not is this world. Aikido vs grab is VERY good, but vs strikes it is not very effective. Maybe if a friend i drunk and wants to punch you, maybe it would be effective then. Vs strikes it can work, but it is VERY VERY VERY VERY difficult. Strikes in aikido gives a false sense of effectiveness and security. One guy on the streets does not punch like most aikidoka do in training. Once again, give the attacker a pair of boxing gloves or mma gloves and try your traditionnal aikido, you would be surprise. Some people are "hermetic", close-minded, they talk alot and they dont experience. Try some new things and you'll see.
> 
> Even for hardcore martial arts and all their techniques, a confrontation on the streets is not an easy thing, imagine with aikido.
> 
> I do not bash on aikido, I do think it is a wonderful art, but has some lack of effectiveness.
> 
> I dont think people understand or realize what a real confrontation is...
> 
> Peace
> 
> -Bushido *



Great respect for your years in martial arts !!!:asian: 

However, as I have written somewhere I used to practice with an Aikido teacher in Japan who used to be a pro boxer. I asked him the same question, that how could Aikido be effective against such arts as boxing. He explained to me that it is very easy, as in Aikido if you meet someone who is fast with their punches, you should go for the body instead. He believed that Aikido is one of the most effective martial arts he had ever seen (his opinion) also with his experience in proboxing. 

I do not know what Aikido you have practiced, but the grabbing in Aikido is beginners practice to learn to understand flow and energy. We do not believe that people actually attacks in that way. When an Aikidoka understands the energy and movements of the body, a whole series of attacks can be worked with in the same manner.  I have also written before that wether or not the Aikido one observes is effective or not, is up to the level of the person performing. When I talk about level I do not mean xxDangrade, but a level of understanding how Aikido can be used for any attack. Have you ever seen Nishio Shojis style of Aikido ? It is build as a selfdefence against martial arts such as Karate, as Nishio sensei is a 6 dan in karate as well as 8 in Aikido. 5 Judo and 7 Iaido.  His idea of understanding attacks is to understand both the energy in the actual attack, but also the small openings, where a defender can enter with the use of perfect distance and perfect timing.

I am not trying to put your experience down. However, I believe you have not seen a good performer yet. In Nishio senseis dojo in Japan I have practised with several karate people who had your view of the effectiveness of Aikido, but when they met Nishio sensei they changed their mind. I practised there myself for 2½ years and during that period Nishio sensei gave me one chance to attack with what I had in me (I used to practice Tae Kwon Do and Judo). He was 68 years old at that time, and I must say I went down from the first punch... 

Anyways... As in all martial arts there are amazing blackbelts that have practiced for years and there are reaally bad blackbelts that have practised for years and years... Therefore it is impossible to say which style is most effective or not. It all depends on the eyes that are looking !!!


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## Jas

Bushido,

      I don't find you to be disrespectful, I do find you to be very close minded about the many differant styles of Aikido. I think we will all agree that through time man has gotten better, we live longer we are smarter etc.... we did this by studying the downfalls with ourselves and worked to make them better. This is what  Nihon Goshin Aikido is all about, my Sensei says Nihon Goshin is a more combative style of Aikido. Centuries ago Aikido was peaceful now with this new style it has adapted to the world we live in today. I live in Buffalo, N.y. and invite you to come to my Dojo to watch a class, I think you will see that we use full speed strikes in trainning straight punhes, hooks, upper cuts, back hands and I have been struck before in class theres nothing weak about the strikes. If you are ever gonna be in my area please e-mail me.

                                              with respect to peoples opinions


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## Diablo

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *Here's is my lack of my experience: 20 years kyokushinkai karate, 5 years  brazilian jiujitsu, 5 years thai-boxing, 3 years aikido, 4-5 years taichi. I'm no beginner in martial art, are you cdhall?
> 
> I still believe Aikido is the "ideal" of what a martial art should be in an ideal world, not is this world.
> 
> One guy on the streets does not punch like most aikidoka do in training. Once again, give the attacker a pair of boxing gloves or mma gloves and try your traditionnal aikido, you would be surprise. Some people are "hermetic", close-minded, they talk alot and they dont experience. Try some new things and you'll see.
> 
> Even for hardcore martial arts and all their techniques, a confrontation on the streets is not an easy thing, imagine with aikido.
> 
> I dont think people understand or realize what a real confrontation is...
> 
> Peace
> 
> -Bushido *



You are very naive in saying that you believe people do not understand or realize what a real confrontation is.  You mentioned you practiced kyokushinkai karate,brazilian jiujitsu, thai-boxing, aikido, and taichi.  If I try to use your'e reasoning for the ineffectiveness of aikido (being that you have not seen an aikidoka that can defend himself against a boxer's punch), then if I use that same reasoning, you have wasted your time learning karate, thai-boxing, and taichi also.  I'd assume they have the Ultimate Fighting Championship there in Canada.  If you ever study them, the karateka and thai-boxer almost always loses against the judoka or bjj.  Taichi?  You will NEVER see a fighter whose sole style is taichi.  If you have not seen a UFC, maybe you have seen a Pride fight.  Either way, it is usually a mixed martial artist who wins.  
Incidently, without stating it here in this forum, you yourself believe that none of the arts you practiced in was an art that is a defense against all real-world confrontations either.   If it was, why would you move onto another art to learn.  You could not possibly become a master in these other arts in 4 or 5 years.
And finally, maybe you need to find another Aikido dojo because it is possible that your fellow aikidoka have become to complaisant.  I too have trained with ukes that do not put any effort into their attacks, and just go with the flow.  But, I also have some ukes that attack full heartedly and I HAVE to apply a particular technique correctly or they do not move.  

It's all about connection.
Diablo


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## Bushido

You compare ring fight to streetfight, you dont seems to fully understand my statements.

-Bushido


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## Bushido

Thank you all for responding to my tread and sharing your ideas and opinion. I respect all your point of view, even if I do not always agree. I keep my position on the fact that strikes in most (not all. if it is not like that in your school, good) aikido school are unrealistic (am I the only one to see that?). Anyway.

This discussion could go on forever, so that was my last post in this tread.

Thank you again.

I wish I could be uke : )

-Bushido


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## bah

There is something that many of you need to know.  Most of the top level people in aikido NEVER trained for any length of time with Morihei Ueshiba.  There are but a very few that have spent very serious time training with the founder.  The two that stand out are Gozo Shioda and Morihiro Saito.  Yoshinkan and Iwama style aikido are very martial and utilize ways to deal with REAL kicks and punches.  

Ueshiba spent MANY years studying and teaching Daito-ryu Jujutsu and he taught very well how to deal with kicks and strikes and how to utilize them as well.


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## kimura

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *
> I wish I could be uke : )
> 
> -Bushido *



You are more than welcome to be my Uke. I would also really like to see for myself what a real punch is, so I can understand it and develop my Aikido so I can defend myself against it...   Just kidding...

I know we cannot agree on this, but I still feel it is narrowminded to jugde something without really studying it...

I feel you are generalizing on something which changes from individual to individual. I am sure your martial art is different from a lot of the people in your dojo too...

If we generalize like this the world would simply come to an end. Then blonds are _really_, Asians are really smarter and Karate is only done by people with long neckhair and whose favorite tv show is Texas Ranger !!


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## Mao

I haven't been to this particular forum for awhile. What a conversation going on here! The head of our org., Mitsugi Saotome spent 14 or so years as an uchi deshi for the founder. That's a live in student for those who don't know. He and Hiroshi Ikeda are the two top guys in the ASU. There's nothing weak or useless or ineffective in "their" aikido. AS has been said, it's how you train. As has also been said, "maybe YOUR aikido doesn't work". It is one of those styles that takes a longer time to get very adept at. More than a few years anyway. It's been 12 for me and I still learn more all the time. Gotta love this stuff!


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *
> 
> I wish I could be uke : )
> 
> -Bushido *



When you find out what uke is, you'll find out that you've been uke your whole life. If you've been a good or bad uke, that's up to you!


/Yari


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