# Would you still consider a green belt a beginner?



## Grasshopper22 (Apr 6, 2012)

I am a Ju-Jitsu practitioner and the belt order goes thusly:

White,
Yellow,
Orange,
Green,
Blue,
Purple,
Brown,
Black,
2nd Dan etc.


I have recently achieved my green belt, would you still consider me a beginner or not?

Obviously I'm not saying I'm a master or anything, just wondered am I past the beginner level?


Thank you!


----------



## harlan (Apr 6, 2012)

Depends on your point of view. Based solely on rank and time-in/years (maybe 3 and under?), I'd consider green still a beginner.  Green with 30 years of intense training in another style...well...a different kind of 'beginner'.


----------



## Jenna (Apr 6, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> I am a Ju-Jitsu practitioner and the belt order goes thusly:
> 
> White,
> Yellow,
> ...


Congratulations on receiving your belt.  You are doing well to get to this point.  I guess you do not feel like a beginner any more.  You have learned a lot and it is sticking.  Beginner is a subjective term.  I think in its absolute sense, it would be an idea to ask those that you train alongside the direct question are you a beginner still.  I think they will be able to provide you with perhaps a more concrete _appraisal _of your status.  I wish you well on having got to here and on your continuing journey.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Apr 6, 2012)

From my perspective, green is more than a mere beginner, but less than proficient.  To paraphrase Winston Churchill, it's the 'end of the beginning, but by no means the beginning of the end'.

I have also heard green belts referred to as the 'Death Belt' in that they begin to realize that they have some ability; but they may think they have more ability than they actually do and get themselves into trouble then can't get themselves out of.  However, I have also heard that said of brown belts, of which I am one.

Let me put it this way; in the realm of what we both have yet to learn, we're just scratching the surface.  In the realm of martial arts training in general; we have a good grasp of some of the fundamentals.

Just my 2 cents; I'm sure every art is different, and each training center has its own standards.


----------



## ballen0351 (Apr 6, 2012)

.  We break our adult classes up into Beginner, intermediate, and advanced classes.  In my Dojo Green  is the fist belt you could attend the intermediate classes so You would now be allowed to do beginner and intermediate classes.  Advanced is for Brown belt and above unless your invited by to attend at a lower rank.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Apr 6, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> .  We break our adult classes up into Beginner, intermediate, and advanced classes.  In my Dojo Green  is the fist belt you could attend the intermediate classes so You would now be allowed to do beginner and intermediate classes.  Advanced is for Brown belt and above unless your invited by to attend at a lower rank.



We train everybody at the same time in mine; but we're small.  I do believe that your description applies to most open tournaments I've been to, though.  The underbelts tend to be divided by beginner/intermediate/advanced, then age groups, and for sparring, by gender as well.


----------



## ballen0351 (Apr 6, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> We train everybody at the same time in mine; but we're small.



Thats normally how the classes end up.  On paper they are broken down by level but they are one right after the other so usually everyone shows up at the 1st beginners class and we all just stay thru all the classes and the newer people kinda leave as things get to advanced or they stay and give it a try if they want.  There are a few Advanced only classes but they are normally at times by themselves with no overlap on other classes.


----------



## Nomad (Apr 6, 2012)

Green belts usually know enough to be dangerous, and start looking around going "Yep, I could kick his a$$"  Usually that feeling wears off somewhere down the road, as they realize just how much they *haven't*&#8203; learned yet...


----------



## Haakon (Apr 6, 2012)

In my opinion, yes green belt is still a beginner. You're maybe 20% of the way to 1st dan, and many people feel you don't even really start to learn an art until then. By green belt you're probably starting to feel comfortable with the environment, you're getting a rhythm to your training, you've been through two or three promotion tests but really at that level your view is still so narrow you can't even see how relatively little you've picked up so far.

Everyone was a beginner at some point, for some of us we've been beginners many times, stick with it, the really cool stuff is still to come!


----------



## seasoned (Apr 6, 2012)

Half way points are, (green belt) very cool. Each rung of the ladder you climb, gives you a better view on where you've been, and where you're going. You have some knowledge that you can pass down, and you can begin to help those on a lower rung. Beginner, no, because at this point you have a commitment, with time invested. Good luck and enjoy the journey, you are building memories that will last a lifetime.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Apr 6, 2012)

Since I consider BB the begining and the kyu ranks all to be one big entrance exam, then yes I'd say Green was a beginner. 

But, at green belt I would say to myself that one certainly has the potential to go the distance.


----------



## Buka (Apr 6, 2012)

If I was used to rolling with your white belts, a green belt would be like the Green Lantern.
If I was used to rolling with your brown belts, a green belt would be a beginner with a little salt.


----------



## WC_lun (Apr 7, 2012)

To me you would be high beginner or low intermediate, depending more on how long you have been training.  It is all relative though.  

I just wouldn't worry about your status.  Worry about the training.  If you a learning and improving, that is the best, regardless of your rank.


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh (Apr 7, 2012)

Yes, I would.  But of course, that's just my opinion, and as such, not worth any more than anyone else's.
For myself, I've been doing ma since 1974, and still consider myself to be a beginner.  I arrive at that conclusion by looking at what I've learned as compared to what there is to be learned, and beginner seems to be just about right.  A persistant beginner, but a beginner just the same.
By the way, many schools don't consider someone to be a serious student until they reach shodan, which means "beginning level" I believe.
JMHO


----------



## ShudoMom (May 7, 2012)

In the style that I train, Shudokan, a Green belt is just below Brown. Our belts are: white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, black. I'm a green belt, and I would consider myself intermediate in some areas, and still a beginner in other areas.  Don't worry so much about where you are, simply enjoy the journey! If you focus on just the destination, you'll miss out on all the sights along the way.


----------



## kitkatninja (May 8, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Since I consider BB the begining and the kyu ranks all to be one big entrance exam, then yes I'd say Green was a beginner.
> 
> But, at green belt I would say to myself that one certainly has the potential to go the distance.



I agree with HK


----------



## Gentle Fist (May 15, 2012)

Anything under Black is a beginner as far as I am concerned...   Looks like many before me having also stated the same thing


----------



## Rich Parsons (May 16, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> I am a Ju-Jitsu practitioner and the belt order goes thusly:
> 
> White,
> Yellow,
> ...




My Opinion Yes. 

For Competition though, see rules and regulation of those hosting if it is a beginner or not, as you may not be a Novice, but you may still be a Beginner. 

You are a beginner as you are now beginning to learn new techniques and new ideas for your next rank. A beginner has an open mind to learn, and does not presume that they have "learned" the previous rank requirements.  You might find over time that you re-learn a technique or concept or idea and it makes even MORE sense at that point. 

Being a beginner is not a bad thing. I know with experience and rank, you can say things like that, and just starting out you want to see progress. And you have. You got your new belt. You have made progress. Now keep the mindset of a beginner and watch & listen to your instructors. Learn what they have to offer. See if something they have said before has a different perspective to you. Sometimes it does not. Yet that does not mean one cannot be open to the idea of it and other ideas as well. 

Keep asking questions, and continue to learn from them. 

Good Luck!


----------



## Kenpo17 (Jun 11, 2012)

If you are a green belt, you are well on your way to mastering the basics of the art.  Once you recieve your black belt, you are considered a master of the basics.  This means even after recieving your black belt, there is still a lot to learn and master, but you have mastered basics strikes, grappling skills, and ground control.


----------



## shima (Jun 12, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> White,
> Yellow,
> Orange,
> Green,
> ...



In the tournament world... 
White, Yellow, Orange = Beginner
Green, Blue, Purple = Intermediate
Brown, Red = Advanced


----------



## monk64 (Jul 18, 2012)

In some systems, green belt is the midway point.  Some kung fu studios use white/yellow/green/brown/black sashes.  In the style of kung fu I studied, a green belt would have learned about 180 separate techniques (each with 8-10 moves), plus forms.  It was a multi-year effort usually.  That's probably the most extreme placement of green belt.  

In most Kenpo systems, you go yellow/orange/purple/blue and then green.  After green is brown so it's an important transition.  Brown/black are definitely the advanced section, so green is penultimate.

Here's one take from my Kenpo experience: yellow/orange belts are working on things a white belt would understand.  Purple/blue belts are working on things a white belt might be able to conceptualize but maybe can't do.  Green belts are working on things that are over a white belt's head.

Here's another take: in a lot styles, the art progresses like this: first you block and then hit, then you block and hit at the same time, and then finally you just move in and hit.  Green belt is definitely in the "same time" category.  In Kung Fu San Soo, for example, by the time you're a green belt, with every move you're doing multiple things.

Interesting question!


----------



## DennisBreene (Aug 1, 2012)

Certainly green belt shows that you are making progress and that is noteworthy. As with several of the others who posted, I was trained to believe that you were a beginner until you achieved black belt. At that time, my instructor would inform us that "now I can start to teach you Karate". And so we began again. Enjoy the personal progress you are achieving and try to view your art as a lifestyle and therefore there is no end in sight.
Dennis


----------



## celestial_dragon (Oct 22, 2012)

Do you feel like a beginner? Ask yourself this, on a 1 - 10 points of knowledge 1 being low and 10 high, where do you consider yourself, then subtract about 10% - 20% of that point for ego. And that is where you probably are, just saying.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Oct 23, 2012)

Well, it depends on things such as how many kyu ranks there are, how many dan levels there are, how long it takes to reach each rank, etc. I do agree with the people that say black belt (and by that I mean 1st dan) is a beginner rank, so in that regard, yes green belt in the rank structire that the OP posted is definitely a beginning rank. 

Speaking personally, I knew much more as a green belt than as a white belt. But when I reached 1st dan I knew much more than I did at green belt. Now, as a 5th dan I know a ton more than I did as a 1st dan, and my instructor, who is a 7th still teaches me knew stuff every time I train with him! Now, I didn't feel like a beginner at 1st dan (although I still felt a little bit that way at green belt) but looking back now as a 5th dan I can see how I really was a beginner even at that rank.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Aiki Lee (Oct 23, 2012)

Even a master level martial artist will be a beginner in another martial skill if he wants to keep learning. Building skills can be a long process and I think you can say you've moved beyond the begginner's level and into the advanced level when you know longer have to make things work and they just work.


----------



## arnisador (Oct 23, 2012)

If this is a yes-or-no question, then yes, still a beginner. Obviously, it's somewhere in-between, and systems vary (e.g., any belt in BJJ is pretty good). To my mind brown belt is usually where that changes.


----------



## Cirdan (Oct 25, 2012)

Impossible to say if a green belt is a beginner or not without knowing what the rank means in the particular system and if the person has additional training. Underestimating a "lower belt" you don`t know in sparring can easily result in getting your butt kicked.


----------



## MikeBielat (Dec 3, 2012)

We are all beginners in one way or another when it comes to Martial Arts...


----------



## Instructor (Dec 3, 2012)

after all these years I still feel like a beginner.  It is best to approach each day as if it is new.


----------



## zamanbutt (Aug 10, 2014)

Congratulations on receiving your belt. I would never consider to you as a beginner.


----------



## Buka (Aug 10, 2014)

Embryo. Zygote, even. As we all were.


----------



## elder999 (Aug 10, 2014)

Grasshopper22 said:


> I am a Ju-Jitsu practitioner and the belt order goes thusly:
> 
> White,
> Yellow,
> ...



[_shodan_ means "first step."

My first class as a black belt, long ago, was purely a demonstration of how much of a beginner I had just become. 

38 years later, I'm *still* a beginner.

4th kyu? Means you've stuck around more than most-look around you: how many people are there with you who were white belts at the same time you were?


----------



## cali_tkdbruin (Aug 12, 2014)

I'm a 3rd Dan Taekwondo BB and I'm still learning.  IMHO one's martial arts education really never ends.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 22, 2014)

Grasshopper22 said:


> I am a Ju-Jitsu practitioner and the belt order goes thusly:
> 
> White,
> Yellow,
> ...



Generally the green belt is used as an intermediate belt. Really though, it would depend on the school and the standards they set. At some places I've seen black belts that I would consider beginners and at other places I've seen green belts and even white belts who are really good and really advanced, although such white belts usually if not always have previous experience in martial arts.


----------



## Buka (Aug 22, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Generally the green belt is used as an intermediate belt. Really though, it would depend on the school and the standards they set. At some places I've seen black belts that I would consider beginners and at other places I've seen green belts and even white belts who are really good and really advanced, although such white belts usually if not always have previous experience in martial arts.



It is not often that I am at a loss for words.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 23, 2014)

Buka said:


> It is not often that I am at a loss for words.



Why is that?


----------



## Tames D (Aug 23, 2014)

To me, a beginner is someone who is beginning to do/learn something. A green belt is certainly not a beginner. unless the ranking system in that particular art starts with a green belt. In the case of the OP, he's NOT a beginner. If we're talking about skill level, well that's another thing altogether.


----------



## Buka (Aug 23, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Why is that?



Because I have a big mouth and like to talk. Besides, how can I answer if I'm a loss for words? It would come out muted. 

(Okay, poor humor aside, please forgive it.) White belts, yellow belts, green belts, there's not a heck of a lot of difference. Might be to them, but that's because they're white belts, yellow belts and green belts. They're still in boot camp. You can take the most athletic person you know, have him/her train in a really good Martial Arts school for a couple years and you'll still have an athletic beginner. Don't take my word for it, find one of those people and if they're still training ten years from now ask them what they knew in 2014, ask them how good they were at anything in Martial Arts. See what they tell you.

I have some belts. My favorite is a white belt in BJJ. Been a white belt for a long time, I have a lot of experience as a white belt. And if you've never trained in a grappling art I'll probably tie you up in knots. But I'm still a white belt. I'm still in boot camp. And I still suck at BJJ. This Martial stuff takes time. White belts in anything don't know sheet from tuna fish. (of course, that means you're reading something from a guy that doesn't know sheet from tuna fish) No matter how talented they are in other things.

Geesh, I talk a lot for a guy who's at a loss for words. I think I'll go have a tuna sandwich. (I better be careful!)


----------



## hussaf (Aug 23, 2014)

I have good experience.  My buddy started straining with me a couple years ago and he basically just got his green belt.  he certainly isn't a noob at the dojo - he's been there for years - but he is still working on grasping the basics.  Generally the term "beginner" in a martial arts context references skill level.  In most Japanese martial arts you are a beginner until around 1st kyu or 1st black belt.  at black belt you are considered a serious student - this had either become a significant part of your life, or you just quit because you "mastered" that particular art.

Only ranking system I have a little familiarity with outside JMA is BJJ.  they have people technically advanced in the colored belts.

In hindsight, the aikido branch of my organization just went from 7 kyu ranks to 10. I asked our organizational head how we should handle people already with rank.  He laughed and said in all honesty colored belts are arbitrary, it's just an attempt at providing goal-based incentive while also attempting to chunk basic techniques into organized groups to help with continuity and ensure critical skills aren't missed.


----------



## Buka (Aug 24, 2014)

I'm wrong. _Again_. I was thinking about this last night. Believe it or not, I think about what everyone says here. I love Martial Arts, training in it, watching it, teaching it, talking about it, thinking about it. So I'm thinking last night....if you consider what a green belt knows, especially a seasoned one, comparing it to someone who's never trained...that can be quite a lot. Maybe even advanced. Or even a seasoned white belt could be put in that category. Then I thought about a seasoned black belt. And thought that might not be a fair comparison.

So, as I'm considering all of this my wife sees the look on my face and says, "What are you thinking about?" (warning to you single guys, beware of traps like this when the time comes) I tell her. She nods but doesn't say anything for a while. Then she starts laughing. I immediately respond, "Wha?"

She says, "You've been doing this a long time. The two main classes at night in all the dojos are what classes?" I say, "The beginners class and the regular class." She says, "And the regular class is called what on the schedule?" (the regular class is called the advanced class) She then says, "Every single green belt you've ever taught,_ every single one of them_ is in which class?" I quietly say, "The advanced class." She says, "and after a white belt has been in the school for a couple months, you know, once they're house broken,  you throw them into which class?" I sheepishly say, "the advanced class."
She, says, "See, honey, when you want to know what you really think, all you have to do is ask."

So for the second time in as many days, I am at a loss for words.


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 24, 2014)

I've never met a green belt that I would consider advanced. In Karate or TKD, you're a beginner until Black Belt IMO.

In Bjj I'd say you're a beginner until Purple, only because in that system, purple is instructor level.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 24, 2014)

Green belt??? I still consider myself a beginner...


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## hussaf (Aug 24, 2014)

Buka said:


> I'm wrong. _Again_. I was thinking about this last night. Believe it or not, I think about what everyone says here. I love Martial Arts, training in it, watching it, teaching it, talking about it, thinking about it. So I'm thinking last night....if you consider what a green belt knows, especially a seasoned one, comparing it to someone who's never trained...that can be quite a lot. Maybe even advanced. Or even a seasoned white belt could be put in that category. Then I thought about a seasoned black belt. And thought that might not be a fair comparison.
> 
> So, as I'm considering all of this my wife sees the look on my face and says, "What are you thinking about?" (warning to you single guys, beware of traps like this when the time comes) I tell her. She nods but doesn't say anything for a while. Then she starts laughing. I immediately respond, "Wha?"
> 
> ...



wow.  you seem to be getting really wrapped around the axle with this.  Whatever you've decided to name your classes, advanced, intermediate, beginner, etc is really arbitrary.  That logic would suggest you only have beginner and advanced students in your school, whereas it's most likely the majority of students fall somewhere in between.  

If you really want to codify your students that much you should delineate a beginner-advanced for both yudansha and mudansha, separate from each other...starting over at "shodan," or black belt, as it loosely translates to "beginning student."


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 24, 2014)

It depends on where you get the green belt and the order that its in with the rest of the belts but generally the green belt is used to mean intermediate. But its really all relative. Some high level instructors wear white belts to show the circular path of learning they've taken.


----------



## Tames D (Aug 24, 2014)

A beginner has no business wearing a black belt.


----------



## Buka (Aug 24, 2014)

hussaf said:


> wow.  you seem to be getting really wrapped around the axle with this.  Whatever you've decided to name your classes, advanced, intermediate, beginner, etc is really arbitrary.  That logic would suggest you only have beginner and advanced students in your school, whereas it's most likely the majority of students fall somewhere in between.
> 
> If you really want to codify your students that much you should delineate a beginner-advanced for both yudansha and mudansha, separate from each other...starting over at "shodan," or black belt, as it loosely translates to "beginning student."



I don't know what "yudansha" or "mudansha" means. As for codifying, I don't want to codify anything. At least I don't think so. I don't really use that term.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 24, 2014)

Buka said:


> I don't know what "yudansha" or "mudansha" means. As for codifying, I don't want to codify anything. At least I don't think so. I don't really use that term.



"Yudansha" would indicate the black belt ranks, "mudansha" would be the ranks below black belt.


----------



## Buka (Aug 25, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> "Yudansha" would indicate the black belt ranks, "mudansha" would be the ranks below black belt.



Ah. That's pretty much how I think of students in striking arts. In bjj, I think of whites and blues as guys I can roll with, and other belts as guys I pay for privates.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 25, 2014)

Tames D said:


> A beginner has no business wearing a black belt.



Yet lots of them do. And that's how you know if a MA school is any good, you observe a class and if the black belts are terrible than you know its a belt factory or a McDojo as they might call it.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 25, 2014)

Tames D said:


> A beginner has no business wearing a black belt.



Why not?


----------



## Tames D (Aug 25, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Why not?



Is this a serious question?


----------



## Jaeimseu (Aug 25, 2014)

Tames D said:


> Is this a serious question?


I think it may be a serious question, at least from a taekwondo perspective. I consider 1st dan black belt to be kind of a beginner rank, especially here in Korea where it can be earned in a year or a little less.


----------



## donald1 (Aug 25, 2014)

A black belt is still a beginner but more advanced


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2014)

Buka said:


> Because I have a big mouth and like to talk. Besides, how can I answer if I'm a loss for words? It would come out muted.
> 
> (Okay, poor humor aside, please forgive it.) White belts, yellow belts, green belts, there's not a heck of a lot of difference. Might be to them, but that's because they're white belts, yellow belts and green belts. They're still in boot camp. You can take the most athletic person you know, have him/her train in a really good Martial Arts school for a couple years and you'll still have an athletic beginner. Don't take my word for it, find one of those people and if they're still training ten years from now ask them what they knew in 2014, ask them how good they were at anything in Martial Arts. See what they tell you.
> 
> ...




Yeah but coloured belts in bjj are generally a pretty big deal. Can teach at purple? Which could maybe sorta be equivalent of a green.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 25, 2014)

Tames D said:


> Is this a serious question?



Yes, it is. I have black belts. I still consider myself a beginner. My Master considers himself a beginner. I don't see these as contradictory.

A martial artist isn't defined by the color of the fabric wrapped around their middle.


----------



## Tames D (Aug 25, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yes, it is. I have black belts. I still consider myself a beginner. My Master considers himself a beginner. I don't see these as contradictory.
> 
> A martial artist isn't defined by the color of the fabric wrapped around their middle.



You need to go back and re-read some of the threads on kids and black belts. They do seem to be defined by by the color of the fabric around their waist.  And not necessarily in a good way.

And DD, I know it sounds humble to say you are still a beginner after all these years of training, but you really arn't. You should give yourself some credit. How long have you been driving a car? Are you still a beginner? Please don'r say yes, that would be scary.


----------



## Tames D (Aug 25, 2014)

Jaeimseu said:


> I think it may be a serious question, at least from a taekwondo perspective. I consider 1st dan black belt to be kind of a beginner rank, especially here in Korea *where it can be earned in a year or a little less*.



This is a big problem.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Aug 26, 2014)

Tames D said:


> This is a big problem.


It's a matter of perception. If a 1st dan is a beginner, it's not too big a problem.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 26, 2014)

Tames D said:


> You need to go back and re-read some of the threads on kids and black belts. They do seem to be defined by by the color of the fabric around their waist.  And not necessarily in a good way.
> 
> And DD, I know it sounds humble to say you are still a beginner after all these years of training, but you really arn't. You should give yourself some credit. How long have you been driving a car? Are you still a beginner? Please don'r say yes, that would be scary.



It's not a matter of humility. I know how much I know, and how much I don't know. And I know how completely unrelated to a belt color both those are.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 26, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's not a matter of humility. I know how much I know, and how much I don't know. And I know how completely unrelated to a belt color both those are.



As a beginner do you feel it would be appropriate to teach others?


----------



## Tames D (Aug 26, 2014)

drop bear said:


> As a beginner do you feel it would be appropriate to teach others?



Beginners teaching beginners. Interesting.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 26, 2014)

drop bear said:


> As a beginner do you feel it would be appropriate to teach others?



Absolutely. We expect every student to teach. I learn from students all the time. Some of them have more experience than me. Some less. Why would anybody cut themselves off from possibly learning something simply because of a belt color?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 26, 2014)

Tames D said:


> Beginners teaching beginners. Interesting.



I don't generally try to promote my blog in this forum, but I recently wrote an essay which I think is relevant to the consideration of who can (or should) be teaching whom. It's too lengthy to post in a comment, so I'll just drop the link here for anyone who is interested: Lineage.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 26, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't generally try to promote my blog in this forum, but I recently wrote an essay which I think is relevant to the consideration of who can (or should) be teaching whom. It's too lengthy to post in a comment, so I'll just drop the link here for anyone who is interested: Lineage.



Thanks Tony for the link to your blog it is a great read!


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 26, 2014)

This one MA student said that in his dojo, everybody is really a white belt. Sure you might wear a belt that's a different color on the surface but its really just a white belt that's been dyed green, brown, black, or whatever. Underneath the coloring its a white belt. So, we're all white belts.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 26, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Absolutely. We expect every student to teach. I learn from students all the time. Some of them have more experience than me. Some less. Why would anybody cut themselves off from possibly learning something simply because of a belt color?



Because a beginner may not understand the subject matter and teach something silly. Everybody wants to help. Just sometimes helping is letting the non beginner teach.

I know I generally like my instruction to come from someone who knows what they are doing.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 26, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Because a beginner may not understand the subject matter and teach something silly. Everybody wants to help. Just sometimes helping is letting the non beginner teach.
> 
> I know I generally like my instruction to come from someone who knows what they are doing.



If they've been taught correctly, they can teach correctly. 
If you can't teach something, you probably don't really understand it yet. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Tames D (Aug 26, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Because a beginner may not understand the subject matter and teach something silly. Everybody wants to help. Just sometimes helping is letting the non beginner teach.
> 
> I know I generally like my instruction to come from someone who knows what they are doing.



Absolutely. I would be concerned about quality control with a beginner giving instruction. I'm sure it's a good way for a school owner to save money but...


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 26, 2014)

Tames D said:


> Absolutely. I would be concerned about quality control with a beginner giving instruction. I'm sure it's a good way for a school owner to save money but...



So to your way of thinking, I should stop teaching?


----------



## donald1 (Aug 26, 2014)

I agree with dirty dog,  beginners can be able to teach. In my Karate class at a certain point the instructor let's people help lower belts.  It's good for beginners to help teach cause that's good experience when done right


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 26, 2014)

Getting back to the original question re: green belts, it's a matter of perspective. When you are 5, someone who is 20 seems old. When you are 50, a 20-year-old doesn't seem even fully grown up yet. From my current standpoint, after 33 years of training, a green belt is still very much a beginner.


----------



## Tames D (Aug 26, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> So to your way of thinking, I should stop teaching?



I don't consider you a beginner.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 26, 2014)

A more advanced beginner can sometimes teach a newer beginner in the same way that a 3rd grader can help teach a 1st grader some basic addition and subtraction and lots of schools do have programs where a student who is a couple of grades above another student might help teach the student in the lower grade some material. If a student is going to help teach another less experienced student it should be done under the guidance of the instructor of course and in my dojo you usually don't start doing any assistant teaching until you're a brown belt.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 26, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> If they've been taught correctly, they can teach correctly.
> If you can't teach something, you probably don't really understand it yet.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.



Which is what makes a person a beginner. And why I tend not to teach. Or will ask my coach if I can teach certain aspects. So say someone's footwork is munty. Now it can be either a case of something that needs to be cleaned up or it just can be something that works for them. Now it is not my business to really determine that because the person who is learning then gets conflicting messages when he may not be ready for them.

And if I can get a qualified opinion from the non beginners in my club. I will. That is why I pay the money and turn up in the first place.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 26, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> A more advanced beginner can sometimes teach a newer beginner in the same way that a 3rd grader can help teach a 1st grader some basic addition and subtraction and lots of schools do have programs where a student who is a couple of grades above another student might help teach the student in the lower grade some material. If a student is going to help teach another less experienced student it should be done under the guidance of the instructor of course and in my dojo you usually don't start doing any assistant teaching until you're a brown belt.




Chinese whispers?


----------



## drop bear (Aug 26, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Getting back to the original question re: green belts, it's a matter of perspective. When you are 5, someone who is 20 seems old. When you are 50, a 20-year-old doesn't seem even fully grown up yet. From my current standpoint, after 33 years of training, a green belt is still very much a beginner.



OK what about say a purple in the beej. Working on the theory of green,brown black. Purple,brown,black.

Got a mate who is a purple but rates in pan pax competitions. Once you start winning on a national stage I would suggest not beginner. Even if I had trained for thirty years obviously he is understanding the concept better than me.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 12, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Getting back to the original question re: green belts, it's a matter of perspective. When you are 5, someone who is 20 seems old. When you are 50, a 20-year-old doesn't seem even fully grown up yet. From my current standpoint, after 33 years of training, a green belt is still very much a beginner.



I consider somebody with a solid black belt to be a beginner. If you've got a black belt where the black coloring is coming off and its turning white, that's a true sign of experience and progress.


----------



## Tames D (Sep 12, 2014)

photonguy said:


> i consider somebody with a solid black belt to be a beginner. If you've got a black belt where the black coloring is coming off and its turning white, that's a true sign of experience and progress.



jeeeeeeeeeeeeesh


----------



## tshadowchaser (Sep 13, 2014)

I consider anyone with under 10 years of experience a beginner


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 13, 2014)

drop bear said:


> OK what about say a purple in the beej. Working on the theory of green,brown black. Purple,brown,black.
> 
> Got a mate who is a purple but rates in pan pax competitions. Once you start winning on a national stage I would suggest not beginner. Even if I had trained for thirty years obviously he is understanding the concept better than me.



A purple in Bjj is like a second degree black belt in most styles.


----------

