# Favoritism with online forum discussions



## beau_safken (May 30, 2006)

It has been a tough weekend and a lot of change has happened on MartialTalk.  We saw the departure of _The Martialist_ and Phil Elmore along with it.  This departure I believe is a major lose for our forum and breaks the balance of this place that is so openly discussed but not really in practice.

What is a "Friendly Discussion Forum" if various opposing opinions are not allowed to take place?  The views of Phil were on the martial arts spectrum are as valid as any other person here on MartialTalk.  I find it insane that this place has forced out the pragmatic tactics that Phil talked about.  Traditional Karate used Sai, Nunchaku, staffs, kama and other converted farm tool as weapons and those weapons have been used for thousands of years.  Silat emphasized the use of knives, cheating in fights, destruction techniques, and completely destroying your enemy.  Kung fu uses machetes, swords, three sectional staffs and the kwan do.  For god sakes, Iaito and Kendo are all about the use of weapons.  What separates those weapons from say...A glock 19, surefire flashlight, broken bottle, fist packs, pepper spray, or other modern weapons?  Pragmatic fighting solutions have been employed at all levels of the martial arts...for the time those arts were developed.  Karate uses those traditional weapons because that is what they had to work with.  _The Martialist_ talks all about the use of our modern weapons in the same way those old arts used their modern weapons at the time, to destroy and kill your enemy and prevent harm to yourself and those you love.  

So you guys tell me...  Why is a form of modern martial arts being chastised out of existence on this forum because of its content?  Want to know my answer?  I'll tell you...

I think its because of the challenge on your values personally and not in regards to the principles of the art.  Many of the people here on this forum are "traditionalist" and have formed the clan mentality with their art.  Anything against your martial art is on the same level as death of your martial art.  That is not a problem, but it doesn't allow you to be fluid and change.  You all may be black belts, masters, gurus or senior instructors, old, young, new, old it all doesn't matter.  The use of antagonistic methods and name calling as I have seen in against people of differing ideas really doesn't help the case.  Debate people you don't agree with talk it over and understand your frustration.  To put a person out with a "hater" defense is blinding yourself to your enemys reality.  Even in something like sparring...you have to understand and love your enemy to learn how to exploit their weakness.  You must understand their mentality, come to learn how they learned...then you can attack with full knowledge of their ability and tactics.  

I ask you all to think just a little...How do you normally deal with opposing thoughts?  Why is it any different in real life compared to here....?


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## Kreth (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> So you guys tell me... Why is a form of modern martial arts being chastised out of existence on this forum because of its content?



First of all, Phil requested that his account and forum be closed. He was not "removed" from the forum.



> I ask you all to think just a little...How do you normally deal with opposing thoughts? Why is it any different in real life compared to here....?


Interesting you would make this comment, since one facet of the recent controversy over The Martialist forum is that Phil did not deal well with opposing viewpoints. On several occasions he deleted such posts. He was also disrespectful to the MT staff.


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## Carol (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> So you guys tell me... Why is a form of modern martial arts being chastised out of existence on this forum because of its content?


 
There was content?

Unless I really missed something...which is possible....I didn't see Mr. Elmore get much in to techniques...each request was turned in to a sales pitch for his books.  I don't have an issue with him pitching his books at all but pitching books as an answer to a question doesn't really make for content IMO.

Personally I don't see why these topics can't be discussed now.  Mr. Elmore does not have an exclusive syndication on types of weaponry.  They are open for discussion at any time.  Perhaps they can be discussed with someone that has techniques and ideas to share.  :idunno:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 30, 2006)

Sorry Beau:

But Phil did not fight fairly when he debated.  He made personal attacks and disrespected opposing views.

Also, outside of MartialTalk, he is generally viewed as a wannabe faker with no real martial arts or combat expertise or experience.   Check out the threads on Phil Elmore on Bullshido.  

Martial Arts internet forums have a tremendous power for disseminating information.   The free-speech nature of forums should enable every civil person to post.   Misinformation can be countered with fact and/or compelling argument.   

The credibility of each internet martial arts forum is dependent on the knowledge level of the forum participants, the forum moderators, and the articles and hosted sub-forums.  

When opinionated know-nothings are given an elevated status to pose as experts, a forum's credibility is ruined and the forum's ability to educate and inform is compromised.  

P.S.  I consider myself an opinionated know-nothing not so different from infamous Phil.  And if Martial Talk ever lets me have my own forum you should run for your life.


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## MartialIntent (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> I ask you all to think just a little...How do you normally deal with opposing thoughts? Why is it any different in real life compared to here....?


 
I ride roughshod over opposing thoughts. I belittle those who oppose me and use verbose language to make myself and my ego inflated so big that no one can touch me. I use a condescending manner in a deliberate attempt to make my idealogical opponents doubt worth in their martial arts, their ability to work these arts and in their whole raison-d'etre and furthermore I claim that doubting my superiority is a failure or lack in _their_ intelligence to recognize those who are quite simply *better* than themselves. This is how I deal with opposing thoughts, but it's ok, I'll let you lead your trivial life and leave you alone if you just kow-tow to me, recognize my will as divine and call me "your Eminence" [though I'm Phil to my secret inner circle].

Respects!


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 30, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I ride roughshod over opposing thoughts. I belittle those who oppose me and use verbose language to make myself and my ego inflated so big that no one can touch me. I use a condescending manner in a deliberate attempt to make my idealogical opponents doubt worth in their martial arts, their ability to work these arts and in their whole raison-d'etre and furthermore I claim that doubting my superiority is a failure or lack in _their_ intelligence to recognize those who are quite simply *better* than themselves. This is how I deal with opposing thoughts, but it's ok, I'll let you lead your trivial life and leave you alone if you just kow-tow to me, recognize my will as divine and call me "your Eminence" [though I'm Phil to my secret inner circle].
> 
> Respects!


 
Yessir!


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## OnlyAnEgg (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> So you guys tell me... Why is a form of modern martial arts being chastised out of existence on this forum because of its content? Want to know my answer? I'll tell you...


 
Beau, if you're going to tell us first, what could we possibly say?  It's precisely this type of predetermination that makes a dialogue impotent.  Direction is different than discussion.


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## Xue Sheng (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> old


 
Who you callin old 



			
				Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Sorry Beau:
> 
> But Phil did not fight fairly when he debated. He made personal attacks and disrespected opposing views.


 
This is exactly the point. He did not fight fairly nor answer direct questions, He was very quick to label someone a Troll or a Stalker if you opposed and or insisted on an answer to a question. He was always right because he said he was. 

But he did keep things interesting and his point of view was not always wrong nor was it always right. I have to admit I sometimes looked forward to what outrageous thing Phil had to say next. 

I had a run in or two with Phil and he will be missed. But it was posted that Phil requested the change.


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## Swordlady (May 30, 2006)

There is absolutely, postively, nothing wrong with presenting an opposing viewpoint.  However, there is something VERY wrong if one is presenting those views in an antagonistic fashion.  MartialTalk is supposed to be a "friendly discussion forum".  In case you haven't noticed, antagonizing others and condescending behavior doesn't go very far here.


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## beau_safken (May 30, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> This is exactly the point. He did not fight fairly nor answer direct questions, He was very quick to label someone a Troll or a Stalker if you opposed and or insisted on an answer to a question. He was always right because he said he was.
> 
> I had a run in or two with Phil and he will be missed. But it was posted that Phil requested the change.


 
Granted Phil probably has a infatuation with trolls and likes under the bridge action, but it seems to me that a lot of the times he would use the Troll defense were justified.  I'm not going to defend his techiniques or tactics...I don't know him personally.  

The point I am driving at is regardless of how he presented his point, it was still a opposing point to a VAST majority of the people on this forum.  This forum is full of martial "Artists" not "martial" artists...if you get my point.  I'm a silat guy, and I have done the Tae Kwon Do thing as well.  The principles I learned in TKD were good...but compared to the raw pragmatic solutions presented to me in Silat...its really tough to discount anyone with real world ideas on martial arts.  

Name me the last time you witnessed a Jackie Chan style bar fight?  How about a lion dance attack like from the Wong Fei Hung series?  What about just a martial artist on martial artist fight outside a dojo but still fighting as if they were sparring?  People cheat...They used modern weapons ala Guns, chemical weapons and the like.  I always liked Phil's adaptability to change.  Granted he was a little rough on the edges with delivery and should have been wearing a sandwich board with "Buy my book!!" on it.  It doesn't negate the fact that this will be a lose to this forum.  Pragmatic martial arts like Krav Maga, Silat and Kali still remain, but it was nice having another piller of realistic martial arts support around.  

Look at the message not the messenger.


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## Blotan Hunka (May 30, 2006)

All good stories need conflict. If kept within limits I have no problems with people duking it out. If you dont like him put him on the ignore list.


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## Flatlander (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> Look at the message not the messenger.


This really is the crux of the matter, Beau.  Here, we need to look at the messenger.  It is not the message, but how it is delivered.

However, I do understand your frustration here.  It is our objective to facilitate all types of discussions, and the best case scenario is that we have all views equally represented.  Part of the problem though, is that we are all judged not only by our message but as well upon the delivery.  The long and the short of it is that we all build our own reputation here.



			
				Beau said:
			
		

> The point I am driving at is regardless of how he presented his point, it was still a opposing point to a VAST majority of the people on this forum. This forum is full of martial "Artists" not "martial" artists...if you get my point. I'm a silat guy, and I have done the Tae Kwon Do thing as well. The principles I learned in TKD were good...but compared to the raw pragmatic solutions presented to me in Silat...its really tough to discount anyone with real world ideas on martial arts.


And this point can be made without coming across as offensive.  I'm sure of it.  Sadly, though, not all are able to make this argument in an eloquent, friendly, and reasonable manner.

This community is just like any other - people will come and go.  The ones that stay will be the ones that enjoy the atmosphere and operate within our terms of service.

Listen, I don't agree with everyone else here either.  However, I don't always feel compelled to respond to someone with whom I disagree.  When I do, I'm certain to retain as much reasonability as I can.  After all, how can I expect anyone to look at things from my perspective if I'm unwilling to extend them the reciprocal courtesy?


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## Marginal (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> I think it&#8217;s because of the challenge on your values personally and not in regards to the principles of the art. Many of the people here on this forum are "traditionalist" and have formed the clan mentality with their art. Anything against your martial art is on the same level as death of your martial art. That is not a problem, but it doesn't allow you to be fluid and change.


 
Nah. It's all about force delivery. (For example: dropping a book, or turning a screw.) Anything less isn't MA. It gets kinda hard to swallow "I'm just stating facts, and using pure Vulcan logic" after invalid statements like the force delivery one.


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## Andrew Green (May 30, 2006)

Opposing view points are welcome, is there a bias?  Always, and anywhere.  People are people.  But, they are still welcome, if disagreed with.

What usually gets people in trouble is not their view, but their method of expressing it.  I disagree with a lot of the people here on a lot of things, I still respect them and what they do, I'm not going to try and claim that what they do is garbage and not real martial arts, it is, it's just not what I do.


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## Kenpodoc (May 30, 2006)

I'll miss Phil. He didn't fight fair and he always seemed very closed minded but he also was a forceful proponent of his own point of view.  I generally learn more from people with whom I disagree.

Jeff


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## Blotan Hunka (May 30, 2006)

When does the fact that nobody is "forced" to read someones posts enter into the equation? For all Phil's faults doesnt it take two to tango? Unlike in the real world we can choose not to listen to someone here.


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## beau_safken (May 30, 2006)

Because that would take away from the drama.  Some people need drama in their lives.  Someone must be bad so they can be good.  Someone must be wrong so you can be right.  The ignore feature?  Don't try and use a logical conclusion to a issue please.... 

Change is always the best idea, and people that don't agree is proof that the community is healthy.  If everyone has a idea that Phil was just an *******, childish arguementative person with no rank, or just mean...it still doesn't eliminate the ideas he had.  The idea of use of weapons as force multipliers, having a mindset that doesn't make you a victim, or use of verbal ques to get your opponents off guard...are those bad ideas?  I just think some people need to set aside some parts of their own agenda to allow a couple new ideas to brew.  But if traditionalist thought and views are what the people here are all about...then I guess that is all there is to say.  All one their own.


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## Andrew Green (May 30, 2006)

Those sound like traditional ideas


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## Blotan Hunka (May 30, 2006)

In theory isnt everybody party to an online fight a "mutual combatant". You have to enter the contest on your own free will. Its not like a real fight where you are forced to respond. There are a few people I have put on my ignore list because I just know that I will say nasty stuff to them and it just isnt worth it.


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## Carol (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> If everyone has a idea that Phil was just an *******, childish arguementative person with no rank, or just mean...it still doesn't eliminate the ideas he had. The idea of use of weapons as force multipliers, having a mindset that doesn't make you a victim, or use of verbal ques to get your opponents off guard...are those bad ideas?


 
These ideas are not exclusive to Mr. Elmore.

What is preventing anyone from starting up a discussion on these very topics?


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## Andrew Green (May 30, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> In theory isnt everybody party to an online fight a "mutual combatant". You have to enter the contest on your own free will. Its not like a real fight where you are forced to respond.



Yes, but there are rules to any fight, regardless of someones POV they still have to follow the rules.


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## Blotan Hunka (May 30, 2006)

From what I saw of his posts, Phil's "content" never seemed to be against the rules. It was the way he said things that got people riled up. I dont know how you can make fair "rules" about that. If the content breaks the rules fine, but his writing style? That just seems very subjective.


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## lklawson (May 30, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> However, there is something VERY wrong if one is presenting those views in an antagonistic fashion.


Martial Arts are about fighting.  Think of it as "Verbal Martial Arts" eh?



			
				Swordlady said:
			
		

> MartialTalk is supposed to be a "friendly discussion forum". In case you haven't noticed, antagonizing others and condescending behavior doesn't go very far here.


Generally doesn't go very far *anywhere*.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Andrew Green (May 30, 2006)

Perhaps you where not privy to all the details, and as has been stated, Phil was not banned.  He asked for his account to be closed.


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## lklawson (May 30, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Yes, but there are rules to any fight, regardless of someones POV they still have to follow the rules.


A lot of Martial Arts are all about *breaking* the rules.  Don't take a knife to a gunfight, eh?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Blotan Hunka (May 30, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Perhaps you where not privy to all the details, and as has been stated, Phil was not banned. He asked for his aco**** to be closed.


 
Perhaps not. :asian:


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## Xue Sheng (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> The point I am driving at is regardless of how he presented his point, it was still a opposing point to a VAST majority of the people on this forum. This forum is full of martial "Artists" not "martial" artists...if you get my point.


 
Actually I am not sure I do, but that doesn't really matter. 



			
				beau_safken said:
			
		

> I'm a silat guy, and I have done the Tae Kwon Do thing as well. The principles I learned in TKD were good...but compared to the raw pragmatic solutions presented to me in Silat...its really tough to discount anyone with real world ideas on martial arts.


 
You are correct sir. 

The real world is a very different place and to be honest I do not agree that Phil was always referring to real world experience.

But from time to time I did agree with Phil, much to my surprise and I generally posted it as such.
And I also believe I posted once that you can learn a lot from an opposing view point.



			
				beau_safken said:
			
		

> Name me the last time you witnessed a Jackie Chan style bar fight? How about a lion dance attack like from the Wong Fei Hung series? What about just a martial artist on martial artist fight outside a dojo but still fighting as if they were sparring? People cheat...They used modern weapons ala Guns, chemical weapons and the like. I always liked Phil's adaptability to change. Granted he was a little rough on the edges with delivery and should have been wearing a sandwich board with "Buy my book!!" on it. It doesn't negate the fact that this will be a lose to this forum. Pragmatic martial arts like Krav Maga, Silat and Kali still remain, but it was nice having another piller of realistic martial arts support around.
> 
> Look at the message not the messenger.


 
I have been in a few real world situations and I am not happy about it. Most fortunately it never involved guns or knives. It did once involve a bleeding IV Drug user, but I am not going to post a thing beyond that about it. I am equally as sure there are many on the boards that were less lucky than I and have had to deal with worse. 

And the fact still remains that Phil was not banned, he requested this.


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## BlackCatBonz (May 30, 2006)

The last time I heard, Phil had his own forum to discuss all of his super excellent ideas and real world experience.......you should check it out, Beau.


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## beau_safken (May 30, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> And the fact still remains that Phil was not banned, he requested this.


 
When did I say he was Banned?  I never said he was banned, I mearly stated that he left this forum.  Here is his side of the story, from his forum...I could post the whole thing but I just chose this part as it seems to be the most relevent to the point.



> Ironically, while not banned from MartialTalk (unless they eventually decided I would be, I guess), I have voluntarily joined the ranks of the dispossessed (ranks that include various Bullshido trolls painstakingly and laborious removed from the site after trolling it for weeks). It saddens me a little not to be able to provide a realistic and practical alternative viewpoint to the many members of MartialTalk who mistakenly believe they are partaking of reasonable self-defense information (if they are even _looking_ for such information, which is not a given)... but I've learned that no matter how much I might like to, I cannot save such people from themselves. Trying to do so leads one to the sort of policed-ideology approach that has doomed and is ruining sites on the _other_ end of the spectrum, where in-crowd cliques drive off anyone who dares to question the party line.
> 
> It is clear to me that the community we have built at Pax Baculum represents the ideal balance for a discussion forum. We offer reasonable, informed, rational discussion on realistic self-defense, in an environment where trolls have a short shelf life, the ridiculous is ridiculed, and strong opinions are not considered forbidden for fear of upsetting those who lack emotional fortitude. I have long fought the suspicion that we are somehow special because I don't _want_ to believe that so many other sites (and therefore their populations, with exceptions) simply don't _get it_. I am not happy about giving in to that suspicion even in a small way tonight. It underscores the ever-tightening, always-shrinking envelope of practical self-defense in which we choose to spend our time -- _outside_ of which so many "martial" artists find themselves.


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## Xue Sheng (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> When did I say he was Banned? I never said he was banned, I mearly stated that he left this forum. Here is his side of the story, from his forum...I could post the whole thing but I just chose this part as it seems to be the most relevent to the point.


 
So after reading Phil's bit for some reason I find myself thinking

"Those that know what&#8217;s best for us must rise and save use from ourselves"

As I said Phil will be missed, but I still do not agree what he was posting was always "realistic and practical alternative viewpoint" 

It was alternative and there is nothing wrong with that but it was not always realistic and practical.


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## shesulsa (May 30, 2006)

In any discussion, I think it is imperative to remember that when presenting a collection of what one perceives to be facts which support one's emotional and intellectual position, one is supporting one's own _opinion_.  Another collection of facts and observations which support another person's emotional and intellectual position is, likewise, their opinion.

The danger is when opinion is forcibly stated as truth when all that "The Truth" comprises of, really, is how well a person can argue their point and how many people they can win over by doing so.

When we stop owning our opinions as being no more and no less than what they are, we begin to enter realms which can denegrate our position.  It is worrisome when what follows is blanket statements in reference to a general populus.

If a person is mindful of fair-minded discussion, that does not necessarily mean that person fights fairly when the proverbial excrement goes down, although as people who have knowledge which is perhaps above the population at large, we do have certain responsibilities and will be judged by 12 accordingly.  Some of us are careful with that responsibility.  Are we too careful?  I'll leave that judgement for the only being I really must answer to.


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## Lisa (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> When did I say he was Banned?  I never said he was banned, I mearly stated that he left this forum.  Here is his side of the story, from his forum...I could post the whole thing but I just chose this part as it seems to be the most relevent to the point.



You did not merely state that he left you stated:



			
				beau_safken said:
			
		

> I find it insane that *this place has forced out *the pragmatic tactics that Phil talked about.




giving the impression that somehow Phil was not given a choice in the matter.

I would be interested in reading the entire thing as, at times, bits and pieces of a statement give rise to misconceptions on the part of those reading it.  Sometimes we fill in the blanks, inappropriately.


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## beau_safken (May 30, 2006)

Lisa said:
			
		

> I would be interested in reading the entire thing as, at times, bits and pieces of a statement give rise to misconceptions on the part of those reading it. Sometimes we fill in the blanks, inappropriately.
> [/color]


 
No problem artyon: 

Follow the link to his post.

http://www.paxbaculum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4817


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## Flying Crane (May 30, 2006)

In my opinion (there's that word again), Phil's problem was his arrogance.  He might have a valid point from time to time, but his delivery was so tremendously obnoxious, condescending and self-righteous that I think many people found it to be irresistable to respond.  Yes, we could all set him on "ignore", but on the other hand we also have a right to respond to what he says, just as he has a right to post his own message.  I agree, some of the threads escalated to sniping and personal insults, and that is unfortunate and should not have happened.  But in my observation, Phil shared a full 50% of the blame for the escalations.

On several occasions I suggested to Phil, in the open discussions, that if he tried changing his delivery tactics he just might get some more productive discussions going, even among those who disagreed with him.  On every occasion that I made such a suggestion, he just fortified his self-righteous position and refused to even consider such a tactic.  How's that for strategy?  Seems pretty inflexible to me.

On my final attempt I suggested to him that he would need to live with whatever world he built for himself, for better or for worse.  Well, I hope he is content, because I really believe his own actions brought him to where he is now.

I hate to see anyone made to feel unwelcome in the threads.  This forum should be open to all, no matter what their opinion.  But some people show themselves to be unable to interact with others in a way that isn't constantly abraisive.  It's hard for those people to find a place of welcome.


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## Flying Crane (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> No problem artyon:
> 
> Follow the link to his post.
> 
> http://www.paxbaculum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4817


 
Regarding Phil's post, I think it shows clearly the arrogance that is his main problem.


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## Blotan Hunka (May 30, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> But in my observation, Phil shared a full 50% of the blame for the escalations.


 
Your fingers are the only things "responsible" for anything around here. The other end of the extreme here is the constant wishy washy "its my opinion", "please dont take offense", whining that illustrates a failure to take a stand on anything. Sometimes its a good thing to stand up for what you believe in and screw what other people think.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 30, 2006)

Interesting discussion.
A few points that must be made.

1-Phil wrote some very popular and very descriptive articles on Trolling. However, he himself has referenced what he does while at other sites as trolling, or I'm sorry, "slumming".


			
				Saint Phil from Fortress Martialist said:
			
		

> Over the last few days I was slumming at a couple of different martial arts sites where I piss off a plurality of the posters because they're left-leaning twits, ignorant children, virtual tough guys, traditional martial artists, or some combination of all of those.



Ok, so that tells us very clearly why he was here. It wasn't to "educate" or "enlighten" us, but to cause problems. There is also an out clause in there I remember reading, on how the high and mighty "anti=troll" will often be seen as a troll. Well, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, I highly doubt it's a pig.

2-Phil has his own heavily controlled little forum, where those that subscribe to his world view can enjoy existence. 

3-Phil's comments, which I have sometimes agreed with, and sometimes not, were overly wordy, and often sleep inducing ejaculations of excessively dense verbiage. Or, removing the $5 words, he wrote long winded and boring crap, which could have made the same point in 1/10th the space.

4-Phil refused to follow this sites posted rules. I will quote them here.


			
				MartialTalk Rules said:
			
		

> # No "Flaming": Please do not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. NO insulting or personal attacks on other members - if some one insults you, do not retaliate but report the offending post using the 'report this post' button link located in each post's top right corner! Respect each others' opinions - you don't have to agree with them but please respect them.
> # Rudeness, flaming, trolling, or any messages (via the forum, e-mail, or PM) that constitute a personal attack will not be tolerated. You'll only get one warning. Any member who is intentionally unpleasant or disruptive may be banned without warning.
> # No "Trolling": Please do not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Don't create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. This includes messages in profiles, signatures and/or posting comments which will intimidate, promote or generate hatred or flames among members.



5-Phils posts, often done within the protection offered within his cardboard outpost that was provided here for him, were often little more than carefully crafted, meticulously worded, and tightly targeted attacks on those he disagreed with, often including the staff of this site, many who did not see eye to eye with him. Such attacks, violate the rules specified above, as well as this clauses:


			
				MartialTalk Rules said:
			
		

> A member who is rude, excessively negative, or disruptive may receive a warning or may be suspended or banned immediately. Suspending and banning is done at the discretion of the administration team. Any abuse directed at our all-volunteer moderation/administration team, including defying the moderators/administrators to suspend or ban a member, may result in an immediate suspension or ban. Membership on MartialTalk is a privilege, not a right.



6-Every website has rules. This one has rules. Alot of them. Too many for even such a verbose writer as Phil to wade through it seems. Those rules are there to be followed, and when you break them, you should be prepared to accept those consequences like an adult.  I've broken them. I got some time outs. I didn't go elsewhere and whine about it. I didn't bombard people with emails or pms screaming about how unfair it was.  I took it, read some books, and when the time was up, came back.  Reading through the Martialist forums, and the Bullshido forums especially, one finds numerous crybabies who have been booted from sites such as this, because of an inability or non-desire to follow those rules. I am sorry, but every society has them. Follow them, or else.  This is a discussion board, not a war zone. This comment "A lot of Martial Arts are all about breaking the rules." may be true in a fight, but not here.

7-Phil will claim he wasn't given a fair shake. In my opinion he would be right. He was given great freedom to express his opinions, without being required to back it up with actual experience. He, and those who invaded this site simply to harass him, disrupted this site with their constant bickering, and yet were allowed great freedom to try to work out those differences of opinion, prior to any moderator intervention in those arguments. Both he, and they should have recieved many more warnings, many more suspensions and possibly even bans from their actions, yet the staff of this site for whatever reason, did not smack them as they deserved. That wasn't fair at all. The great patience shown by those who moderate this site in these battles was repaid with insults, rants, and censorship, as well as character assassination on other more childish and immature sites by lowbrow degenerate types, also no longer with us. 

The bottom line is, Phil and his attitude wore out his welcome here, as he and it has on so many other sites. I wish him all the success in the world. But I will not miss him, or his attitude in the least.


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## beau_safken (May 30, 2006)

:fanboy:   How many freaking books of rules are there here????  Paragraph 6000? :idunno:


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## Flying Crane (May 30, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Your fingers are the only things "responsible" for anything around here. The other end of the extreme here is the constant wishy washy "its my opinion", "please dont take offense", whining that illustrates a failure to take a stand on anything. Sometimes its a good thing to stand up for what you believe in and screw what other people think.


 
Are you specifically targeting me with this post?


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## Blotan Hunka (May 30, 2006)

Not really, just responding to ideas being presented. In the long run, this site is privately owned and the owners can do whatever they want. I have no problem with that. I would just hate to see all conflict ruled out here, that would become boring to the extreme.


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## Kreth (May 30, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> I would just hate to see all conflict ruled out here, that would become boring to the extreme.


While it just may be the wording used: debate is encouraged, conflict is not.


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## OnlyAnEgg (May 30, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> 4-Phil refused to follow this sites posted rules. I will quote them here.
> *MartialTalk Rules, section 800, subsection 50, paragraph 6,000*


 
Please Edmund, if you'd like to quote the rules, do so without unnecessary exaggeration.  It can be confusing.

Thank you.

egg


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## Blotan Hunka (May 30, 2006)

Nothing wrong with "conflict" unless laws are broken or some sort of harm/damage is being done. Debate is just verbal conflict as I see it.


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## Cryozombie (May 30, 2006)

Beau...  I gotta ask, what are you trying to accomplish here with this thread?

I read your little post over at PB (yeah, I am a member there too, have been for some time now) and saw your inclination to come back and _*infect*_ Martial Talk:



> We should be able to infect places on the same level those that screwed with you did


 
I hope the Mods take GOOD note of that and keep a careful eye on your posts.


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## Flying Crane (May 30, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Not really, just responding to ideas being presented. In the long run, this site is privately owned and the owners can do whatever they want. I have no problem with that. I would just hate to see all conflict ruled out here, that would become boring to the extreme.


 
Fair enough.  I understand that I can present my thoughts, as well as can others.  They are just my thoughts and opinions and it is the responsibility of others to decide for themselves whether or not to agree with me.  That's the whole point of what an opinion is.  I am not going to jam my opinion down anyone's throat.  Anyone who disagrees is welcome to express that and I certainly won't get hostile for it, but I also expect any dissenters to not jam their dissent down my throat.  If you disagree, do your best to convince me as I will do my best to convince you.  But understand that much of what is being expressed here is opinion, and cannot be held up as absolute truth.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> :fanboy:   How many freaking books of rules are there here????  Paragraph 6000? :idunno:


This sites rules are easily found by clicking the link at the top called, ironically, "rules".
Or here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=141&

At the very top is a sticky outlining what are the key rules.  The rest look to be more detailed "clarifications" for those "rules lawyers" who need to be told very specifically what is and is not ok. Most of these are common sense things.

My comments concerning rule/section/paragraph was a joke, aimed at those who will insist that there are too many rules, or that they are too hard to understand, or they are too hard to find, etc. Of all the sites I've visited, I find MT's to be the most complete, easily located, and fairly enforced.


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## OnlyAnEgg (May 30, 2006)

Well done, Edmund.
Thank you.


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## beau_safken (May 30, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Beau... I gotta ask, what are you trying to accomplish here with this thread?
> 
> I read your little post over at PB (yeah, I am a member there too, have been for some time now) and saw your inclination to come back and _*infect*_ Martial Talk:
> 
> ...


 
Hell Here is a link my post over there, where I am tracking this one.  

I just find it amazing how this MartialTalk turned on somebody like that.  Granted there could be some better choices of words by a lot of people, myself included.  Regardless, if one person's opinion no matter how different, strange, false, idiotic...its still an opinion.  Just hit the ignore button and then you never have to see anything from that person again.  On top of that, Phil also helped support this forum monetarily.  It's just odd that someone who pays to help this place would get chased off.


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## Kreth (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> I just find it amazing how this MartialTalk turned on somebody like that. Granted there could be some better choices of words by a lot of people, myself included. Regardless, if one person's opinion no matter how different, strange, false, idiotic...its still an opinion. Just hit the ignore button and then you never have to see anything from that person again.


Phil's problems here had to do with his blatant disrespect for the forum staff. Stop trying to make him a martyr.


> On top of that, Phil also helped support this forum monetarily. It's just odd that someone who pays to help this place would get chased off.


You might want to double-check your facts more carefully.


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## Blotan Hunka (May 30, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Fair enough. I understand that I can present my thoughts, as well as can others. They are just my thoughts and opinions and it is the responsibility of others to decide for themselves whether or not to agree with me. That's the whole point of what an opinion is. I am not going to jam my opinion down anyone's throat. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to express that and I certainly won't get hostile for it, but I also expect any dissenters to not jam their dissent down my throat. If you disagree, do your best to convince me as I will do my best to convince you. But understand that much of what is being expressed here is opinion, and cannot be held up as absolute truth.


 
Understood. IMO (  ) there are a number of others with similar attitudes and writing styles around here. I just think Phil was a larger and more prominent target than them. Granted he painted those targets on himself and of his own free will.


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## Flying Crane (May 30, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Understood. IMO (  ) there are a number of others with similar attitudes and writing styles around here. I just think Phil was a larger and more prominent target than them. Granted he painted those targets on himself and of his own free will.


 
Gotcha.  Full agreement.


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## Kacey (May 30, 2006)

I have to agree with those who place the blame where belongs - which is primarily on Phil.  I entered one - and only one - conversation with him, in which his repeated content amounted to "I'm right because I say I am, and you're wrong because you're stupid enough to disagree with me", in terms that increased steadily in vitriol when I refused to back down, and only ended when I stated that I would not continue to respond to him - and then stopped posting on that thread.

Does Phil have some good ideas?  Sometimes, and if you can stay awake through the verbiage he uses - but I gave up on doing more than skimming through his posts, and never responded to threads he started or directly to him on other threads, because his attitude when he was disagreed with wasn't worth any information he ever presented.

As others have said, and you are so obviously aware, Phil has his own forum - if he chose to withdraw from this site because the moderators enforced the rules of the site and didn't wish to follow them, then that was his choice.  By watching when and how his account was suspended, and seeing his hosted forum become a subscription group only because of the rudeness (and eventual crudity) of his responses, I have to commend the forbearance of the moderators for _*not *_banning him - and I'll be honest, that one run-in I had with him nearly drove me from this site, and only the support from the moderators and mentors kept me here at the time.  

I've been on other sites that are not as well moderated (and in one case, not moderated at all), and the people who refuse to accept any viewpoint but their own drive off all those who disagree, and then sit back and badmouth the ones who left as cowards, for not taking their self-stated superiority as a given.  I have no desire to watch that happen here, nor do I see any reason why you should be allowed to pick up the mantle he dropped by leaving... but that is up to your own behavior, and to the moderators.


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## Lisa (May 30, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> Hell Here is a link my post over there, where I am tracking this one.
> 
> I just find it amazing how this MartialTalk turned on somebody like that.  Granted there could be some better choices of words by a lot of people, myself included.  Regardless, if one person's opinion no matter how different, strange, false, idiotic...its still an opinion.  Just hit the ignore button and then you never have to see anything from that person again.  On top of that, Phil also helped support this forum monetarily.  It's just odd that someone who pays to help this place would get chased off.



And I truly find it amazing that you would feel this way and post about it when you don't know the whole story.  

Beau, with all due respect, one should not formulate opinions such as yours based on what you have read on another's site.  You don't know the entire story.  You don't know all the details and truly I feel you are not doing yourself justice by taking a side on this.  

As far as the monetary part of your post goes.  I support this forum as well as many others.  Just because Phil paid his supporting membership like the rest of us did does not make him better then anyone else.


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## michaeledward (May 30, 2006)

Shhh !

Is he really gone? For good, you mean? 

Wow!

It was not easy to add Phil Elmore to your Ignore List. As he was given the permissions of a moderator to operate his own forum, he could not manually be added to an ignore list - I know. I tried. Mr. Hubbard had to hard code the change from the server side.

Just a note on that Bob. Once you completed that move, I could no longer add from my Ignore List

I wish Mr. Elmore peace and happiness, somewhere far from me.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 30, 2006)

Hmm.
Seems mr. safken there is violating this sites TOS.
"Ownership of Posts - All posts and content become the property of MartialTalk.com except for text and images that are themselves on copyright.
Reproduction in whole or in part without prior written consent is not permitted."
http://www.paxbaculum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4824

Unless, you have permission to copy almost the entire contents of this thread there? I think 1 or 2 posts might be acceptable, but, with the extent you have posted, I think it crosses "Fair Use".


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## Xue Sheng (May 30, 2006)

You do all of course realize that if Phil is aware of this thread, and he probably is, he is absolutely thrilled at what is going on here.
You can't be serious....



			
				beau_safken said:
			
		

> I just find it amazing how this MartialTalk turned on somebody like that.


 
Turned on someone that absolutely refused to see any other side of an issue other than his. Absolutely refused to answer questions that could refute his claim. And for all intensive purposes declared himself an expert based on the fact he said he was.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 30, 2006)

Mr. Safken is enjoying himself incredibly over there, basking in just how much of a troll he is being here.

In his own words:
"I'll post all the responses so you guys dont have to register. "
"No worries...I'll post the replies here so you don't have to go anywhere. I'll add them to this post "
"I guess I am a little trollish by doing this whole thing...but I don't care."
"Dear god...Im gonna need my flame suit for the onslaught that will be coming my way now.... Very Happy "

Phil is aware of the thread.
"Good grief, man. They're going to flame you a crispy brown for that.
Thanks, though."
That is the second post in the mess.
and of course, the intellect shines through with this comment: _"I wouldn't be surprised if you get "disciplined" for posting it, to be honest. I'm sure there is a rule somewhere in their scores of pages of rules that covers it._"

Yes Phil, there is.  Its at the bottom of every page here. Hard to miss, as it's located right next to that big copyright statement.  It's also in the rules in at least 2 places.  See, when I get a vacation, I read more. :rofl:

Sorry Beau, I see this thread as little more than an angry, and childish attempt to further disrupt this site, and spit in the face ot its staff, rules and owner.


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## Xue Sheng (May 30, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Mr. Safken is enjoying himself incredibly over there, basking in just how much of a troll he is being here.
> 
> In his own words:
> "I'll post all the responses so you guys dont have to register. "
> ...


 
With that in mind, I shall feed the flame no more.

See ya Beau, tell Phil I said Hi.


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## OnlyAnEgg (May 30, 2006)

My friends and Fine Fellows:

This is turning into a bit of a monkey poo-flinging fest.  Can everybody please rein it in?  There is no need for all this in this, or any other forum.

I know we can all behave with decorum.  Let's do just that, shall we?

thank you


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## terryl965 (May 30, 2006)

I just find it amazing how this MartialTalk turned on somebody like that. 


Beua I'm asking as a member for you to please let this go, I believe enough damage has been done and I for one really would like this forum to get back on track about Martial Arts and other fine pieces of work we have here.

I do appreciate everybody concern over the other gentleman but he is a man and will bounce back on his two feet without anu interferance from this forum.

Thank You All
Terry Lee Stoker


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## beau_safken (May 30, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> With that in mind, I shall feed the flame no more.
> 
> See ya Beau, tell Phil I said Hi.



Absolutaly, I'll tell him and the gang hello from you and Mr. Ed.  I'm really glad to have been able to bring this issue out and provide a whole day of open discussion.  Granted I guess you are right, it would be a lot easier to just hyperlink everything rather than copy paste.  Sure would have saved me a lot of Alt-Tab action and let my poor fingers take a rest.  

I think we pretty much have established that Phil was more the problem than his point of view.  I was more concerned that it was the point of view not the person that brought on this action over the weekend.  I say a lot of stuff here as well and just wanted to know where the pendulum was swinging on that matter.  That is a pretty definitive, opinions are cool...just dont be an *** about it.  

Cool beans.

BTW:



> Since obeying the law means nothing to you, and you hate it here so much, that you will seek to distroy this place, why the **** are you here?


  Good show...

Nice work on that one...I'll have to getting a better magic 8 ball as my plans have been foiled.  ...What the hell, I have been at this place for a long time and like being able to ask questions and such.  And I HARDLY think I'm going to do anything like that.  There are WAY too many good things about this place, like umm... the +18 section, Jokes are good, the study for one, and meeting fellow martial artists from my region of the world.  I was just concerned that this place was turning into a place that would stomp out ideas...but since its just a guy that acted like a jerk at times, I'm cool now.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 30, 2006)

For the record, everything is cool between Phil and I.  We've enjoyed a long and mutually beneficial relationship over these past few years, and I am sorry to see this phase of it end. I have an account on his forum, and am welcome there. This was simply a matter of things growing in different directions, and the resultant 'growing pains' that happen.  Phil was the one who asked me to remove his forum here, so that we could stop the headaches for both of us. I did as he asked, glad the problems would start to end, but sad to see things end up as they did.  There are a number of hurt egos, feelings and relationships that resulted from all the bickering. I think it's time for the healing to begin.

Beau, you've put me in a difficult position here. You have created another mess, and blatantly gone through considerable effort to fan the flames of anger, as well as flagrantly violated numerous easily found rules. But you're one of those people who helped me out a short period ago when I really needed it.  So, what do I do with you?


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## beau_safken (May 30, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> For the record, everything is cool between Phil and I. We've enjoyed a long and mutually beneficial relationship over these past few years, and I am sorry to see this phase of it end. I have an account on his forum, and am welcome there. This was simply a matter of things growing in different directions, and the resultant 'growing pains' that happen. Phil was the one who asked me to remove his forum here, so that we could stop the headaches for both of us. I did as he asked, glad the problems would start to end, but sad to see things end up as they did. There are a number of hurt egos, feelings and relationships that resulted from all the bickering. I think it's time for the healing to begin.
> 
> Beau, you've put me in a difficult position here. You have created another mess, and blatantly gone through considerable effort to fan the flames of anger, as well as flagrantly violated numerous easily found rules. But you're one of those people who helped me out a short period ago when I really needed it. So, what do I do with you?



I'll take a couple days off and let the dust settle.  No biggy, Little vacation isnt a big deal.  Just drop me with a couple day suspension, I learned my lesson.  I'll just ask you or the mods next time.  Granted I could have just asked a little more covertly or just PM'ed all the Mods rather than allow something like this more air to breath.  I just wasn't thinking of that as a action is all.  I just kinda wanted to see everyone's collective opinion.  I got it and now I'm cool.  Sorry to put you in a bind like that.


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## Flatlander (May 31, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> I'll take a couple days off and let the dust settle. No biggy, Little vacation isnt a big deal. Just drop me with a couple day suspension, I learned my lesson. I'll just ask you or the mods next time. Granted I could have just asked a little more covertly or just PM'ed all the Mods rather than allow something like this more air to breath. I just wasn't thinking of that as a action is all. I just kinda wanted to see everyone's collective opinion. I got it and now I'm cool. Sorry to put you in a bind like that.


At the same time, this issue did need to be discussed, out in the open.  We lost a forum, and a significant contributor of content.  That hurts a community, irrespective of the circumstances.  The discussion needed to happen somewhere, somehow.  I see no reason to have hid it from the membership.  Hell, you obviously weren't the only guy that noticed he was gone.

Besides, how else would michaeledward have known unless we brought it up? :lol2:


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## Jonathan Randall (May 31, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> I'll take a couple days off and let the dust settle. No biggy, Little vacation isnt a big deal. Just drop me with a couple day suspension, I learned my lesson. I'll just ask you or the mods next time. Granted I could have just asked a little more covertly or just PM'ed all the Mods rather than allow something like this more air to breath. I just wasn't thinking of that as a action is all. I just kinda wanted to see everyone's collective opinion. I got it and now I'm cool. Sorry to put you in a bind like that.


 
Good post, Beau. :asian:


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## Flatlander (May 31, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Hmm.
> Seems mr. safken there is violating this sites TOS.


Mr. Blackadder.  If you'd care to use the Report To Moderator feature when you see a rule violation, that'd be great.  It's located in the upper right hand of the post.  It looks like a little white triangle with a red border and an exclamation mark in the middle.  If you'd care to become a moderator, an application can be found here.  Until then, I'm sure our Mod staff can handle things just fine.  Thanks for your concern.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT SuperMod-


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## Xue Sheng (May 31, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> just dont be an *** about it.


 


			
				beau_safken said:
			
		

> BTW:
> 
> Good show...
> 
> Nice work on that one...I'll have to getting a better magic 8 ball as my plans have been foiled. ...What the hell, I have been at this place for a long time and like being able to ask questions and such. And I HARDLY think I'm going to do anything like that. There are WAY too many good things about this place, like umm... the +18 section, Jokes are good, the study for one, and meeting fellow martial artists from my region of the world. I was just concerned that this place was turning into a place that would stomp out ideas...but since its just a guy that acted like a jerk at times, I'm cool now.


 
I think your getting your people mixed up here. Although the first quote was mine, the second wasn't and although being called an *** doesn't exactly thrill me I have been called worse so I will just have to take the source into consideration. 

have a nice day beau


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## Kensai (May 31, 2006)

I cannot believe as a relatively new member of this site, all the commotion created by this saga. Are we not all grown adults? People of (in the main) good repute? People who, if are not "martial" artists, or martial "artists", have a deep passion for the "martial arts", that are getting drawn into a petty argument about a man who voiced his opinions albeit in a very seemingly confrontational manner. This seems to have turned into a playground argument.... "He said/she said etc"... 

I like this site. I'm on most days while at work. There are people I disagree with, and once or twice I've responded when I probably shouldn't have, but I've "tried" to check myself before being drawn in too much, and never to such an extent that I contemplated leaving. Yes we have the right to disagree. Yes we have the right to debate. We also have the right to walk away and maintain the opinion that some/all people will always be bigotted in certain ways. I stumbled across a body building/weight lifting website a few days ago whereby 8 or 9 members on one thread took to denigrating all MA study as a total waste of time, and that those that practiced it, regardless of the style/system/leaning were idiots who liked to dress up in pyjamas. This thread went on for around 5 pages or thereabouts, I was so angry I was about to register with the site, and take issue with the views being put forward. I stopped. Who was I to argue with them. The problem with arguing with idiots is that they always drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. I walked away. Sound in the knowledge that "I" am happy with what I do, I have the bruises, black eyes and scrapes to prove it, plus the awareness. 

From what I saw of the posts discussed I totally understand why he rubbed people up the wrong way, but even if you couldn't add him to the ignore list, you could actually just ignore him. Walk away. Sorry for sounding sanctamonius, but it's my view (and I'm right! - joke!!) that in situations such as this, you cannot convince some people of their differing of opinions, and it's best to avoid getting angry and letting the little vain in the side of your head get the better of you.


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## beau_safken (Jun 3, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I think your getting your people mixed up here. Although the first quote was mine, the second wasn't and although being called an *** doesn't exactly thrill me I have been called worse so I will just have to take the source into consideration.
> 
> have a nice day beau



You have the people mixed up.  That was ear-marked for Mr. Ed. not you.  Unless I assumed incorrectly regarding that little comment I received.  

Had a great day today.  It was sunny all morning and afternoon.  Then in the evening just before going home from work the fog started to billow into the bay.  I took my cousin that got into town up to the Empress and did some mai tai's and sake bombs.  Nothing like chilling and watching the fog envelop the hills and coit tower.  Filet for dinner so juicy and buttery I didn't need a knife, and there was fireworks over the bay.  Wonderful day.

Kensai:
Absolutely correct.


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## Jenna (Jun 3, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> You have the people mixed up. That was ear-marked for Mr. Ed. not you. Unless I assumed incorrectly regarding that little comment I received.
> 
> Had a great day today. It was sunny all morning and afternoon. Then in the evening just before going home from work the fog started to billow into the bay. I took my cousin that got into town up to the Empress and did some mai tai's and sake bombs. Nothing like chilling and watching the fog envelop the hills and coit tower. Filet for dinner so juicy and buttery I didn't need a knife, and there was fireworks over the bay. Wonderful day.
> 
> ...


Hey Beau  my Samurai of the Stapler what is going on here my friend? You are truly a sink for bullies here and seem to attract many missiles to the heat from your exhausts and I am certain this is not pleasant for you because I know you are a genuinely good and honest guy.

I hope you stay around while you still DO have that heat in your exhausts because there are many posters I will say on many boards who languish there trying to ignite their afterburners with gratuitous arguments and bickering LONG after their fuel is expended.....

You go to the pier in your wonderful town it is a lovely place down there I know and listen to the gulls and watch the pelicans and have a think about all the things you offer by continuing to post here and  for what little it is worth I will  support you with that 

Be good and think clear and even if it is true: there is no spoon.... we can eat it with our hands, LOL.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## MardiGras Bandit (Jun 3, 2006)

Phil left, that's his business. It's a loss to MartialTalk because he was fun to have around, but so is everyone else. Phil was just a troll who couldn't argue as well as most trolls can, and despite his claims of never being outwitted he was made to look silly in virtually every MA related thread he posted on. A lot of people who argue with him fall back to the "you don't have experience" line, which is a shame because it is far eaiser (and more ammusing) to pick his ideas apart then to use strawmen. As much as he knocks people doing this, Phil relies on it because he is a subpar debater when real issues are presented.

That said, I'm 100% sure he has reregistered on this forum under a new name. If it's not him it's one of his PB buddies.


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## beau_safken (Jun 3, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Beau  my Samurai of the Stapler what is going on here my friend? You are truly a sink for bullies here and seem to attract many missiles to the heat from your exhausts and I am certain this is not pleasant for you because I know you are a genuinely good and honest guy.
> 
> I hope you stay around while you still DO have that heat in your exhausts because there are many posters I will say on many boards who languish there trying to ignite their afterburners with gratuitous arguments and bickering LONG after their fuel is expended.....
> 
> ...



Don't you worry Lady Jenna, I'll be around.  

Hell ya, going on the piers and yelling at the sea lions is hella fun.  It was kinda cool last night for sure.  Has some drunk college kids running around the embarcedaro singing and making noise, little kids doing some kind of game on the sidewalk and a wispy pink sunset.  That was really nice because its tough to be made about your week at work like a tall frothy beer and overlooking the bay.  Gotta love it.  Plus today is gonna be sunny and I'll be over at the beach so man of man...gonna be fun today.


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