# One punch and knock your opponent out



## Kung Fu Wang (May 27, 2021)

If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?

Your thought?


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## Dirty Dog (May 27, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?


Most people will realize that *can* and *will* are not synonymous. 
I know I can knock someone out with one strike. 
I also know I cannot do it 100% of the time.


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## mrt2 (May 27, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?


Well, if this were true, there would be MMA fighters who don't do grappling at all.  Obviously, most high level fighters can knock out an opponent with one punch or kick, but not all the time.


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## wab25 (May 27, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?


Sure... I can knock someone out with one punch. There is just no guarantee that I will always be fighting that certain someone... or that he won't eventually learn from it...


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 27, 2021)

Should people train the striking art before the grappling art?

IMO, since you have to deal with your opponent's punch, it makes no sense to jump into the grappling art without first train the striking art.


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## Hanzou (May 27, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Should people train the striking art before the grappling art?
> 
> IMO, since you have to deal with your opponent's punch, it makes no sense to jump into the grappling art without first train the striking art.



That really depends on what your goals are.

If your goal is self defense, you don't need a striking art, since you can simply walk away from someone trying to hit you. You're only really in danger in a situation if a person grabs you and refuses to let you go.

If you're looking to become a professional fighter, it completely depends on how you began martial arts and what you prefer. In the end, you're going to have to learn both to be a competent fighter.

Your OP is laughable btw.


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## cane56 (May 29, 2021)

What if you don't? Have you ever felt the weight of a college wrestler? You know he is 180, but it's like trying to move a elephant!


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## jobo (May 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> That really depends on what your goals are.
> 
> If your goal is self defense, you don't need a striking art, since you can simply walk away from someone trying to hit you. You're only really in danger in a situation if a person grabs you and refuses to let you go.
> 
> ...


if you walk away from someone trying to punch you, you tend to get punched in the back of the head, running away can be a safer option, provided you can out run them, otherwise you get tripped and kicked


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?


your post tells me you have never had a real fight. Dojo sparring is not real fighting. People do grab you when they are close enough. you can´t always hold a person at arms length and bounce around like in some kung fu Wushu styles or Tae Kwon do. aint gonna happen. even putting someone in a simple head lock can screw the person up. 
Tell you a funny story. This is true. I remember some years back i was sitting in an office & an old guy suddenly ran in shouting for help. straight after him ran in a guy who was about 40 with one arm. seriously. He punched the old guy in the face, then another guy who was near him stepped in & told him to leave the old man. so the one armed guy got more aggressive & i said get out now. He came towards me & next to me was a heavy glass ash tray (i do not smoke). His eyes looked straight at it so i sprung out my seat & pushed him away as i did he grabbed my jacket at below the elbow like you would in Judo. now i did not really want to beat up the guy but when he did that i had to react. got what he deserved but my point is never underestimate anyone or think you´ll punch a guy & that´s it. 
The one armed guy came from a very infamouse family where i live known for violence & drugs. A few months later the one armed guy killed two tramps by cutting their throats. true story. he´s in jail now will never come out.


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## WaterGal (May 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> That really depends on what your goals are.
> 
> If your goal is self defense, you don't need a striking art, since you can simply walk away from someone trying to hit you. You're only really in danger in a situation if a person grabs you and refuses to let you go.



Well, unless they surprise you with a punch out of nowhere. But then, once they do that, either you're knocked out/down or they're likely going to be in your grappling range.


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## WaterGal (May 29, 2021)

How often do professional boxers, whose entire martial art is punching people in the face, actually successfully knock out their opponent with the first punch?

I can't imagine that I could ever achieve a level of punching skill to exceed Muhammad Ali. 

Also, it's nice to have options for dealing with an aggressive person that don't risk permanent brain damage or death.


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> If your goal is self defense, you don't need a striking art, since you can simply walk away from someone trying to hit you. You're only really in danger in a situation if a person grabs you and refuses to let you go.


agree to a point but sometimes you can´t walk away.  I mean when i was a kid you would get jumped from the back, grabbed by the hair pulled to the ground & given a good kicking. dirty fighting.  No Queensberry boxing rules on the streets.. also as a kid we fought with other guys from towns near us so they got to know you if you were game or not. if they came looking for you, you had to have a square go with them(a fight), anything else was seen as cowardice. just the way it was.


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## Martial D (May 29, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> you can simply walk away from someone trying to hit you.


If they stop trying the second your back is turned I guess. Otherwise you just made it easier for them


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> How often do professional boxers, whose entire martial art is punching people in the face, actually successfully knock out their opponent with the first punch?
> 
> I can't imagine that I could ever achieve a level of punching skill to exceed Muhammad Ali.


I think this isn’t a meaningful comparison.  When you have two highly trained competitors who agree to meet and face each other in a competition, the parameters are very different from a more random encounter.  The competitors are cautious and careful and don’t leave themselves open for a decisive strike.  They know that their opponent is also highly trained and is prepared for the engagement, and so expect a robust defense.  In addition, wearing boxing gloves changes the impact of the punch, making it less likely for a quick, one-strike knockout.

a bare-knuckle punch in a violent encounter outside of competition lacks the context of that cautious and careful face-off that is inherent in an agreed competiton.  While there are certainly other factors that contribute to NOT having a successful one- punch knockout, I do believe it is a real possibility if you have been training your punches well.  You don’t need to be a “better” puncher than Ali, in order to accomplish this.

I absolutely believe that I could knock someone out with one punch.  I also believe that I could outright kill someone with one punch.  But this does assume that I am able to land the strike optimally on an enemy who is trying to prevent me from doing so.  So it is certainly not guaranteed.  But the potential is definitely there.  I try to not project my training to the public and so far as I know, I don’t have any local reputation as a “tough guy”.  So any encounter that I might have would likely be against someone who is unaware of my training and who decides to initiate a conflict with me.  I am not big nor imposing nor intimidating.  That works in my favor.  The other guy may simply be unaware of what is about to come at him, whether or not he has training himself.


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## Equilibrum32 (May 29, 2021)

I would say learn striking first. Grappling can get picked up easier. Boxing especially needs to be learned the soonest, formal or not.


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> a bare-knuckle punch in a violent encounter outside of competition lacks the context of that cautious and careful face-off that is inherent in an agreed competiton


What??  I think even some early Shotokan fighters would disagree with you.
To fight outside of a safe enviroment you need to be able to take it as well as give it. now a bare knuckle punch is not like in a dojo. not all punches will KO a fighter. even bare knuckle fights go rounds. look up UK bare knuckle boxing & Gypsy Irish fights.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> What??  I think even some early Shotokan fighters would disagree with you.
> To fight outside of a safe enviroment you need to be able to take it as well as give it. now a bare knuckle punch is not like in a dojo. not all punches will KO a fighter. even bare knuckle fights go rounds. look up UK bare knuckle boxing & Gypsy Irish fights.


Your point?


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> a bare-knuckle punch in a violent encounter outside of competition lacks the context of that cautious and careful face-off that is inherent in an agreed competiton.


simply waffle . not relevent to any fighting, competition or outside.
what is there to be cautious or careful about in a street fight or in competition. This backs up what i am saying all along on these threads. You are not training with full intent in most dojos so how can you fight outside without experience. 
boxing teaches you this. I am repeating myself here.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> simply waffle . not relevent to any fighting, competition or outside.
> what is there to be cautious or careful about in a street fight or in competition. This backs up what i am saying all along on these threads. You are not training with full intent in most dojos so how can you fight outside without experience.
> boxing teaches you this. I am repeating myself here.


I’m still not getting your point.  You don’t feel a one-punch knockout, or even kill, is a possibility?  Do I understand you correctly?   Because I’m not sure what you are saying.  

 I never said it’s a guarantee.  I said it’s a possibility.  and it depends.  Do you disagree with that?


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m still not getting your point.  You don’t feel a one-punch knockout, or even kill, is a possibility?  Do I understand you correctly?   Because I’m not sure what you are saying.
> 
> I never said it’s a guarantee.  I said it’s a possibility.  and it depends.  Do you disagree with that?


I am saying unless you are a conditioned guy who can take a good slap or two you will go down fast. most thugs on drugs or with a good chin can take it and a lot before they go down. you _might _be lucky but that happens in how many fights? how many real fights have _you _had? just so i know you understand me.


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

look at this fight.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> I am saying unless you are a conditioned guy who can take a good slap or two you will go down fast. most thugs on drugs or with a good chin can take it and a lot before they go down. you _might _be lucky but that happens in how many fights? how many real fights have _you _had? just so i know you understand me.


Ok, that is still beside the point.  My position is: I can hit hard enough that I believe I could knock someone out, or even kill them with one shot.  I believe boxing as a sport is a different entity, so comparing what happens typically in a boxing ring is not a meaningful comparison to what can happen outside of that environment.  I never said any of it is guaranteed, butI do believe it is possible.  One’s mileage may vary.  

Do you agree that it is possible?  It’s a yes or no question.


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, that is still beside the point.  My position is: I can hit hard enough that I believe I could knock someone out, or even kill them with one shot.  I believe boxing as a sport is a different entity, so comparing what happens typically in a boxing ring is not a meaningful comparison to what can happen outside of that environment.  I never said any of it is guaranteed, butI do believe it is possible.  One’s mileage may vary.
> 
> Do you agree that it is possible?  It’s a yes or no question.


OK i am a straight talker .. i think you have a very high opinion of yourself. 
I also believe it will be your downfall. 
End of conversation.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> OK i am a straight talker .. i think you have a very high opinion of yourself.
> I also believe it will be your downfall.
> End of conversation.


But you can’t give me a straight answer.

Ok then.


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> But you can’t give me a straight answer.
> 
> Ok then.


how can i ? no two fights are the same.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> how can i ? no two fights are the same.


Do you believe a one punch knockout is an impossibility?


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Do you believe a one punch knockout is an impossibility?


I think you are a dreamer who believes in all the dojo crap. 
I do not think you have ever been in a real life threatening situation.
keep on believing your one punch kill philosophy.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> I think you are a dreamer who believes in all the dojo crap.
> I do not think you have ever been in a real life threatening situation.
> keep on believing your one punch kill philosophy.


Really, this is not a trick question.  On a hypothetical level, do you believe it is possible?  Nevermind that a particular individual’s ability to do it in the context of a specific altercation may vary widely.  Let’s just keep it on the hypothetical level for the moment.  Do you have a position?

I really feel it isn’t terribly difficult to learn to punch quite hard.  It takes some dedicated work, but it is within reach.  Once you develop that skill, there are simple targets against which it could yield a straight knockout.  Even a kill.  

developing the additional skills to be able to consistently land such a blow in the chaos and stress of a real fight is certainly another discussion.  But that doesn’t undermine the potential that such a punch has, and it is not dependent upon whether it is seen within boxing matches.   You certainly do not need to be a “better” puncher than Muhammad Ali in order to have that ability. 

Any comment on that?  Something constructive to the discussion that isn’t just telling me I’ve drunk some Kool-Aide?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> do you believe it is possible?


One of my Karate friends used to ride in the back of a police car. When the police needed him, he would come out and tried his one punch knock out skill. He told me most of the time, he could drop his opponent with one punch.

This is the issue for the striking art. You don't get this kind of chance all the time (I was invited as police helper but I didn't do it). Even today, I still don't know his action (help police to beat up bad guys) was legal or not.


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Really, this is not a trick question.


no it´s not but you are assuming you can kill with one punch or KO someone with your martial art skills. can you give us examples of your skills?


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One of my Karate friends used to ride in the back of a police car. When the police needed him, he would come out and tried his one punch knock out skill. He told me most of the time, he could drop his opponent with one punch.
> 
> This is the issue for the striking art. You don't get this kind of chance all the time (I was invited as police helper but I didn't do it). Even today, I still don't know his action (help police to beat up bad guys) was legal or not.


I cannot imagine it was legal, was likely criminal, but we can see from recent events that the police have been getting away with a lot of nefarious practices for a long long time.  

If what your friend tells you is true, well there is an example.  And yes, this is definitely the kind of skill that most people rarely, if ever, have a chance to really test.  So what do we do?  We practice our technique, we work it on a heavy bag or makiwara or similar to develop that power, we work on interactive drills for application, and the final gap we just need to bridge when the time comes.


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> when the time comes.


so you have never proved your skills.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> no it´s not but you are assuming you can kill with one punch or KO someone with your martial art skills. can you give us examples of your skills?


I believe I can, yes.  I don’t have anything I can show you here in an Internet forum.  But I am confident that I can do it.  And as I have said several times here, it is not guaranteed, it depends on other factors, but the fundamental ability is there.  No question about it.  

So even on a hypothetical level, you can’t see the possibility?


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> so you have never proved your skills.


In what way?  Have I ever knocked someone out with one punch? No, I haven’t.  

So what?


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I believe I can,


ok so no you have never done it for real.


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## Graywalker (May 29, 2021)

Yes, it is possible to knockout or kill a person with one knockout..it has happened and will continue to happen.

But yes, you should train for grappling or at the very least escaping the ground.


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> In what way?  Have I ever knocked someone out with one punch? No, I haven’t.
> 
> So what?


it´s ok ..just don´t fantasies about things you have never done. This is my point. you have no real experiences of a raw fight.


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## Graywalker (May 29, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> look at this fight.


If there is a mediator, it's not a real fight.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> it´s ok ..just don´t fantasies about things you have never done. This is my point. you have no real experiences of a raw fight.


You are unable to see the potential in things that you have not yet done?  Ive never shot someone in the head with a .308 rifle either.  I am confident that there is a high likelihood they would die if I did.  That is not to equate my punch to a .308 rifle, of course.  But it is definitely not difficult to see the possibilities.  Really, it isn’t.

If you cannot see the possibility, then I suppose you don’t have much confidence in your own punching ability.  That is unfortunate.


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## JowGaWolf (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> You are unable to see the potential in things that you have not yet done? Ive never shot someone in the head with a .308 rifle either.


Nope everything has to be on video or it's not possible.  That's where we are these days.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Nope everything has to be on video or it's not possible.  That's where we are these days.


Well, when I finally get the opportunity to pop off a shot at someone’s head, I’ll make sure the cameras are rolling.  YouTube or bust!


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, when I finally get the opportunity to pop off a shot at someone’s head, I’ll make sure the cameras are rolling.  YouTube or bust!


Hope you are not stupid enough to post your head shot video online so police can find you.

A: How many people have you killed so far?
B: I have killed ....
C: My dear! Someone is knocking on the door. They say they are FBI.
B: ...


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## JowGaWolf (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, when I finally get the opportunity to pop off a shot at someone’s head, I’ll make sure the cameras are rolling.  YouTube or bust!


Just make sure you use a fast bullet,  it's not legit unless it's full force.  Can't forget about full force. It ain't valid unless it's full force.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Hope you are not stupid enough to post your head shot video online so police can find you.
> 
> A: How many people have you killed so far?
> B: I have killed ....
> ...


I imagine YouTube has an anti-snuff film policy.


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## JowGaWolf (May 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Hope you are not stupid enough to post your head shot video online so police can find you.
> 
> A: How many people have you killed so far?
> B: I have killed ....
> ...


Ha ha ha. Wang why am I picturing a computer programming flow chart when I read that lol.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I imagine YouTube has an anti-snuff film policy.


I just don't believe it's a good idea to talk about personal street fight experience online. Next time you go to the court, your opponent's lawyer will use it to against you.


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## JowGaWolf (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I imagine YouTube has an anti-snuff film policy.


Nah. That's just rumor they allow snuff,  But then again.  It might not be good to do it all together. lol


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## JowGaWolf (May 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I just don't believe it's a good idea to talk about personal street fight experience online. Next time you go to the court, your opponent's lawyer will use it to against you.


Just say you do kung fu and kung fu people can't fight.  it's been proven.  It's on youtube lol


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I just don't believe it's a good idea to talk about personal street fight experience online. Next time you go to the court, your opponent's lawyer will use it to against you.


Oh I agree.  It is rather astounding to me when I see people talking about their fight experiences online.  Not terribly bright.


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## JowGaWolf (May 29, 2021)

Me when people start talking that nonsense


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## Dirty Dog (May 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I just don't believe it's a good idea to talk about personal street fight experience online. Next time you go to the court, your opponent's lawyer will use it to against you.


A - Do you really spend all that much time going to court because of assaults?
B - Please cite case law that would allow this putative lawyer to do this. I don't believe it exists. It's like the people on firearms forums who claim a modified gun will be used against you in court. Utter nonsense.


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## jobo (May 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> A - Do you really spend all that much time going to court because of assaults?
> B - Please cite case law that would allow this putative lawyer to do this. I don't believe it exists. It's like the people on firearms forums who claim a modified gun will be used against you in court. Utter nonsense.


well you'd need to find case law that would prevent it from being used as evidence against you

it is clearly evidence, why would it not be admissible when it was freely given on a public forum ?


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> A - Do you really spend all that much time going to court because of assaults?
> B - Please cite case law that would allow this putative lawyer to do this. I don't believe it exists. It's like the people on firearms forums who claim a modified gun will be used against you in court. Utter nonsense.


Well, I took it to mean if you ever come under suspicion of a crime, the prosecution will look at your online social platform activity for clues to your behavior.  This is happening a lot, many indictments are happening for the activities of January 6, and online postings are weighing in heavily in gathering evidence, for example.  

so if you are being investigated by grand jury for assault charges and they find you posting about how you beat the crap out of the guy, well it’s a bit of a smoking gun.


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## Dirty Dog (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I took it to mean if you ever come under suspicion of a crime, the prosecution will look at your online social platform activity for clues to your behavior.  This is happening a lot, many indictments are happening for the activities of January 6, and online postings are weighing in heavily in gathering evidence, for example.
> 
> so if you are being investigated by grand jury for assault charges and they find you posting about how you beat the crap out of the guy, well it’s a bit of a smoking gun.


There is a big difference between posting "I beat up John Bignose", which nobody is doing, and "I was in a fight and did this."


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is a big difference between posting "I beat up John Bignose", which nobody is doing, and "I was in a fight and did this."


Except that people ARE posting “I beat up John Bignose” in the form of “look at this video of me and my buddies breaking down a door in the Capitol Biilding and bear-spraying cops...”

It is amazing what kinds of stoopid people are willing to post about.

a few years ago I remember someone here on Martialtalk posting about how he got in a fight the day before, and posting details of what he did to the guy and how he was afraid he might be in trouble for it.  He only shut up when I and a couple others suggested it might not be a good idea to be talking about this in a public forum.  So yeah, it does happen, and ive seen it here.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Flying Crane said:
> 
> 
> > it might not be a good idea to be talking about this in a public forum.


Talking about is one thing. We can all lie sometime. Showing video is the issue.

A: Dear judge, I didn't hurt him.
B: Who's eyeball was in your hand in that video?


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## JowGaWolf (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> So yeah, it does happen, and ive seen it here.


It happens everywhere.  The Internet drops people's guard down.  The privacy of the home gives people that false security that what they say is private.  Then there's the drive of social popularity of youtube and facebook.

A lot of desire for people to be seen by others, even if it means eating tide pods or posting themselves doing something illegal.  Some people just have to be seen and they are willing to do anything for that popularity.


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## JowGaWolf (May 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Talking about is one thing. We can all lie sometime. Showing video is the issue.
> 
> A: Dear judge, I didn't hurt him.
> B: Who's eyeball is in your hand in that video?


That's why you have to eat the eyeballs.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Talking about is one thing. We can all lie sometime. Showing video is the issue.
> 
> A: Dear judge, I didn't hurt him.
> B: Who's eyeball was in your hand in that video?


Sure, video is hard to dispute.  But even talking about something, if you are actually being investigated for that thing, can be pretty useful to the prosecution.  And of course you likely won’t know you are being investigated until they have the information and show up with an arrest warrant.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It happens everywhere.  The Internet drops people's guard down.  The privacy of the home gives people that false security that what they say is private.  Then there's the drive of social popularity of youtube and facebook.
> 
> A lot of desire for people to be seen by others, even if it means eating tide pods or posting themselves doing something illegal.  Some people just have to be seen and they are willing to do anything for that popularity.


It’s amazing the level of stoopid on the internet.  I’m actually all for it.  I want those F*****s from January 6 to be prosecuted to the hilt for what they did.  But I am constantly amazed at how helpful the idiots can be, in showing the world the evidence.


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## Hanzou (May 29, 2021)

jobo said:


> if you walk away from someone trying to punch you, you tend to get punched in the back of the head, running away can be a safer option, provided you can out run them, otherwise you get tripped and kicked





Martial D said:


> If they stop trying the second your back is turned I guess. Otherwise you just made it easier for them



A slight misspeak on my part. You can walk/back away, but don’t turn your back on them.


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## JowGaWolf (May 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> It’s amazing the level of stoopid on the internet.  I’m actually all for it.  I want those F*****s from January 6 to be prosecuted to the hilt for what they did.  But I am constantly amazed at how helpful the idiots can be, in showing the world the evidence.


Yeah I'm not happy about January 6th either.  I'm still trying to decide which is worst.  The fact that it happened or the fact that  only one side wants to investigate.  I always say the worst decisions are often made from uncontrolled emotions.


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## Hanzou (May 29, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> agree to a point but sometimes you can´t walk away.  I mean when i was a kid you would get jumped from the back, grabbed by the hair pulled to the ground & given a good kicking. dirty fighting.  No Queensberry boxing rules on the streets.. also as a kid we fought with other guys from towns near us so they got to know you if you were game or not. if they came looking for you, you had to have a square go with them(a fight), anything else was seen as cowardice. just the way it was.



Well that's my point; You weren't really screwed until someone put their hands on you and started dragging you around (aka grappling with you). If you're trained in a grappling art, you honestly have an advantage, because even trained strikers want to get a hold of you in order to land more significant blows.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yeah I'm not happy about January 6th either.  I'm still trying to decide which is worst.  The fact that it happened or the fact that  only one side wants to investigate.  I always say the worst decisions are often made from uncontrolled emotions.


Yeah, pretty despicable.  But we are probably straying into politics now...


----------



## drop bear (May 29, 2021)

mrt2 said:


> Well, if this were true, there would be MMA fighters who don't do grappling at all.  Obviously, most high level fighters can knock out an opponent with one punch or kick, but not all the time.



Or basically mark hunt. 

But we are dealing with a specific body type.


----------



## drop bear (May 29, 2021)

Anyway. If I absolutely had to send a guy unconscious. I would choke them out. 

It is more reliable.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 29, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Anyway. If I absolutely had to send a guy unconscious. I would choke them out.
> 
> It is more reliable.


It's difficult to if you have to fight against multiple opponents.


----------



## drop bear (May 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's difficult to if you have to fight against multiple opponents.



Absolutely. The best way to handle multiple opponents is just to knock everyone out with single punches.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 30, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Absolutely. The best way to handle multiple opponents is just to knock everyone out with single punches.


If your opponents can move in one line, you punch on the 1st opponent's face, the back of the1st opponent's head hits on the 2nd opponent's face, the back of the 2nd opponent's head hits on the 3rd opponent's face, ..., you may be able to knock all of them out by just 1 punch.

On the other extreme, let's use the machine gun approach. If you can throw

- right jab,
- left cross,
- right hook,
- left hook,
- right uppercut,
- left uppercut,
- right back fist,
- left overhand,
- right overhand,

fast enough like a mad man, do you think you can knock your opponent out by at least one of your 9 punches?


----------



## drop bear (May 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your opponents can move in one line, you punch on the 1st opponent's face, the back of the1st opponent's head hits on the 2nd opponent's face, the back of the 2nd opponent's head hits on the 3rd opponent's face, ..., you may be able to knock all of them out by just 1 punch.
> 
> On the other extreme, let's use the machine gun approach. If you can throw
> 
> ...



Wait. Are we now using 9 punches to knock one guy out?


----------



## Alan0354 (May 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?


Depends on how good you are and how good the opponent is. People don't just stand there and let you aim, ready and punch, they move around. A knock out punch requires to hit at the very point, at the maximum power point of the punch(meaning at the perfect distance). If it is off, you won't knock the opponent out. It is easy to talk than to do. You might be able to punch very hard on a heavy bag or break a lot of boards, but people are not a punching bag, they move, they fight back.

Just look at UFC fights, it's not often people gets knock out in one punch. Also, this is not like UFC in the early 90s that grappler only know grappling, kick boxer only know kick boxing. You see those grapplers actually kick box with you and then tackle you when you are not paying attention.

Don't think I am happy with all the grappling, I am actually very bitter about it. I trained in Tae Kwon Do and kick boxing type long time ago, when UFC came onto the scene, I was already too old to get into it. I am still working out at home, but I only call my training aerobics, don't even want to call it MA. Only thing I can think of and am practicing now is stick fight with a walking cane. That create a lot of distance and much harder for a grappler to get hold of me. AND of cause, the cane hits a whole lot harder than a punch. I likely to get a couple of wacks on the guy before he can reach me!!! )

If all else fails, poke the eyes and bite.


----------



## RagingBull (May 30, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> If there is a mediator, it's not a real fight.


they are pretty much real fights. fist fights or do you consider it too soft because there is no pokes to the eyeballs? most of them are fat pikey Gypsies but still got to give them some respect.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> OK i am a straight talker .. i think you have a very high opinion of yourself.
> I also believe it will be your downfall.
> End of conversation.


This is not uncommon in TMA at all.  Some Sheldon Cooper type goes to a dojo/dojang for a couple years, they get their black belt, yet they've never been in a real fight.  But they think they could beat Kimbo Slice in his backyard fighting days.

Truthfully, there are very few TMA'ist that I'd even put over the men that Kimbo Slice has _beaten_ in the backyards.

If these backyard fighters can take _several_ punches from Kimbo Slice, and have the ability to tell you about it... one punch from _any_ of us on here ain't ****.


----------



## RagingBull (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> This is not uncommon in TMA at all.  Someone goes to a dojo/dojang for a couple years, they get their black belt, yet they've never been in a real fight.  But they think they could beat Kimbo Slice in his backyard fighting days.
> 
> Truthfully, there are very few TMA'ist that I'd even put over the men that Kimbo Slice has _beaten_ in the backyards.
> 
> If these backyard fighters can take _several_ punches from Kimbo Slice, and have the ability to tell you about it... one punch from _any_ of us on here ain't ****.


reminds me of a good friend i had in the Army. He was from Fiji, was hard as f-ck. Drunk Bacardi like water, ate pizza but was muscular ripped to the bone. I saw him take on like 3 guys. we got into trouble but was a great guy very Loyal. went Airborne later.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> reminds me of a good friend i had in the Army. He was from Fiji, was hard as f-ck. Drunk Bacardi like water, ate pizza but was muscular ripped to the bone. I saw him take on like 3 guys. we got into trouble but was a great guy very Loyal. went Airborne later.


Yeah, what's funny is that I'm thinking about the Karate Kid Part III.

What was Terry Silver doing the whole time?  Building Danny's confidence up so that he would believe that he could beat Mike Barnes, but really couldn't.

Granted, Danny did win the tournament according to the rules, but Mike Barnes clearly demonstrated during the tournament that he would have murdered Danny on the streets.

But what Terry Silver was doing to Danny the whole time: is it really much different from what's happening in real life?  I don't think so.  When people who've never been in a real fight are claiming that they can kill a young healthy adult with one punch, we need to start asking questions.


----------



## jobo (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> This is not uncommon in TMA at all.  Some Sheldon Cooper type goes to a dojo/dojang for a couple years, they get their black belt, yet they've never been in a real fight.  But they think they could beat Kimbo Slice in his backyard fighting days.
> 
> Truthfully, there are very few TMA'ist that I'd even put over the men that Kimbo Slice has _beaten_ in the backyards.
> 
> If these backyard fighters can take _several_ punches from Kimbo Slice, and have the ability to tell you about it... one punch from _any_ of us on here ain't ****.


no idea who kimbo is or why he was fighting in his back yard 

but its rather dodging the issue,  as it seems unlikely il ever get to go to his back yard,

on the actual topic, IF you get a free punch,  then you should exspect that to be the end of the matter, knocked out, knocked over or at least very wobberly , if that doesnt occur then your punching is woefully inadequate or you've run into mr slice,which would be unlucky in the extreme


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

Something else: from what I hear, the average punch of an MMA fighter is mid 700's lbs.  The average punch of the average man is low 600's.

I average average around 960'ish.

Even with that, I've only achieved the one-punch knockout once in my life.  I've still had to earn every victory, and I've even lost with that.


----------



## RagingBull (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Yeah, what's funny is that I'm thinking about the Karate Kid Part III.
> 
> What was Terry Silver doing the whole time?  Building Danny's confidence up so that he would believe that he could beat Mike Barnes, but really couldn't.
> 
> ...


Karate Kid....LOL   but yeah a good boxer can KO someone but most people are not Good pro Boxers or Ametuer Boxers. some people are just more aggressive & savage than others. can´t teach this in a dojo. no black belt will give you the will to survive in a savage fight.
i know people who are nice but when in a fight they turn into Lunatics.


----------



## jobo (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Something else: from what I hear, the average punch of an MMA fighter is mid 700's lbs.  The average punch of the average man is low 600's.
> 
> I average average around 960'ish.
> 
> Even with that, I've only achieved the one-punch knockout once in my life.  I've still had to earn every victory, and I've even lost with that





Urban Trekker said:


> Something else: from what I hear, the average punch of an MMA fighter is mid 700's lbs.  The average punch of the average man is low 600's.
> 
> I average average around 960'ish.
> 
> Even with that, I've only achieved the one-punch knockout once in my life.  I've still had to earn every victory, and I've even lost with that.





Urban Trekker said:


> Something else: from what I hear, the average punch of an MMA fighter is mid 700's lbs.  The average punch of the average man is low 600's.
> 
> I average average around 960'ish.
> 
> Even with that, I've only achieved the one-punch knockout once in my life.  I've still had to earn every victory, and I've even lost with that.


that would be possibly impressive if force was indeed measured in lbs, but it's not, so rather meaningless,

how 4exactly have you arrived at this figure of 960 clearly not by measurement or youd know that


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

jobo said:


> that would be possibly impressive if force was indeed measured in lbs, but it's not, so rather meaningless,
> 
> how 4exactly have you arrived at this figure of 960 clearly not by measurement or youd know that


LOL, I've learned to be patient with you because, well, you're just different.

But there are machines for this.  County fairs typically have them, and many sports bars have them.  If you go to Dave & Buster's, or places similar to that (I don't know what you have in the UK), you'll definitely find them there.

Anyhow, the machine has a padded scale that you punch, and it measures the force.


----------



## jobo (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> LOL, I've learned to be patient with you because, well, you're just different.
> 
> But there are machines for this.  County fairs typically have them, and many sports bars have them.  If you go to Dave & Buster's, or places similar to that (I don't know what you have in the UK), you'll definitely find them there.
> 
> Anyhow, the machine has a padded scale that you punch, and it measures the force.


well clearly it doesnt, as its giving you the answer in non existent units of force, 

I'm not sure fair ground amusment equipment counts as a measure of anything apart from ego and gullibility


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

jobo said:


> well clearly it doesnt, as its giving you the answer in non existent units of force,
> 
> I'm not sure fair ground amusment equipment counts as a measure of anything apart from ego and gullibility


Looks like your own ego is the one that's on the line.  Handle it however you want to, but I won't be involved.


----------



## RagingBull (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I've learned to be patient with you because, well, you're just different.


   be careful he´ll rant on now about his Isometric training vs Weight training !


----------



## jobo (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Looks like your own ego is the one that's on the line.  Handle it however you want to, but I won't be involved.


your sounding off saying to can punch considerably harder that a top level mma fighter, has it not occurred to you that sounds a bit unlikely to be true and perhaps they are taking money off you under false pretences to flatter your ego

such machines do indeed exist, but not I suspect at the country fair and they dont measure in lbs, coz that not the unit of force


----------



## RagingBull (May 30, 2021)

jobo said:


> your sounding off saying to can punch considerably harder that a top level mma fighter, has it not occurred to you that sounds a bit unlikely to be true and perhaps they are taking money off you under false pretences to flatter your ego
> 
> such machines do indeed exist, but not I suspect at the country fair and they dont measure in lbs, coz that not the unit of force


how about you show us in a video all your theories about muscle building & all the other stuff you rant on about.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

Correction: it's pounds per square inch, not pounds.  Either way, you knew what I meant and were more worried about being right.  But that's typical jobo.


----------



## jobo (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Correction: it's pounds per square inch, not pounds.  Either way, you knew what I meant and were more worried about being right.  But that's typical jobo.


that's not the unit of force either


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

jobo said:


> that's not the unit of force either


Yes it is.  I think it's time you exit the conversation, as you don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## RagingBull (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> But that's typical jobo.


YUP.... he´s got the correct profile picture though.   
Reminds me of an old guy where i grew up. was an ex Professor of Physics i mean he used to rant on about anything. went crazy so he lived alone but was a professor at a University as a young man. 
Used to go to his house as a kid  with our "gang" & ask him hey Davey (we called him Davey Crocket) what is the Relativity theory? he would rant on..
I know this was bad from us kids.  Apparantly in his house the walls were full of Equations (whatever they called them.)
This is jobby Jobo... the nutty old dude


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

Jobo needs to read this and sit the eff down.



			https://shortboxing.com/average-boxers-punch-in-psi/


----------



## RagingBull (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Jobo needs to read this and sit the eff down.
> 
> 
> 
> https://shortboxing.com/average-boxers-punch-in-psi/


waiting for Jobo´s theories.....3...2...1.....


----------



## jobo (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Jobo needs to read this and sit the eff down.
> 
> 
> 
> https://shortboxing.com/average-boxers-punch-in-psi/


have you read it, ? its saying mma fighter punch at 2000psi and not your quoted 700

so clearly something is wrong

and psi is not the unit of force ,finding articles from others that dont understand physics isnt going to change that


----------



## RagingBull (May 30, 2021)

anyway i am just Grilling ..put some big fat *** stakes on.
beer is going down nicely so i will not attack poor Jobo or i will get banned


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

jobo said:


> have you read it, ? its saying mma fighter punch at 2000psi and not your quoted 700
> 
> so clearly something is wrong
> 
> and psi is not the unit of force



It's saying *some*, it's not saying that's the average.  I'll also say that you're more likely to find that among the heavy weights that are trained in boxing.

Now, uhh... what was that unit of measurement that you were trying to say it was again?


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

Right here, it states that the average is 776 PSI.





__





						What is the average punching force?__Mechanical Engineering Energy Solution Custom Machining Energy Projects
					





					www.oes.com.qa


----------



## RagingBull (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Right here, it states that the average is 776 PSI.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jobo do you remember Frank Bruno? was a big guy. not too smart but very strong. just never had the brains to utilize all his brawn .


----------



## RagingBull (May 30, 2021)

....unlike Mike tyson look how he moved got in close. power, raw power & used it to his advantage.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (May 30, 2021)

TLDR  for the othe replies, but until what makes and does not make a "iron chin" is identified, and quantifiable, its up in the air.  Then it needs to be observable to assess how good of a chance you have for knocking somone out in one blow.

Its a pretty intresting thing i have observed.  Seen the whole "oh it doesnt work 100%" for XYZ argument, but people seem to overlook, punching doesnt tend to have a 100% effect rate.   You tend to have to hit somone several times to achive the desired effect. (not really relivent, more in line with my annoyance in this line recently)


But anyway, you can see people drop like flies, from one hit punching, and see people resist getting their cleanly hit several times.  Unclear if the latter gets a concusion or not though.  (concussions dont always result in unconciousness, pretty sure i have had a few where i have just felt dizzy/uneasy)    id probbly just put it at, if they are prepared and have their body prepared less likely, if not more likely and age would factor in.

Addendum: unless i am mistaken, a iron chin can be broken and degraded through use and time?


----------



## RagingBull (May 30, 2021)

Rat said:


> a iron chin can be broken and degraded through use and time?


people used to talk about a Boxer losing his legs. I do think there is some truth here. Squat, Leg press is a staple in every boxers routine.


----------



## Graywalker (May 30, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> they are pretty much real fights. fist fights or do you consider it too soft because there is no pokes to the eyeballs? most of them are fat pikey Gypsies but still got to give them some respect.


No, it's not a real fight, because there is no real danger.


----------



## Graywalker (May 30, 2021)

Yeah some people, simply hate a fact.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> If there is a mediator, it's not a real fight.


Alright, everybody, this question goes out to everyone here that is not trained in MMA:

You versus an MMA fighter.  The MMA fighter has to follow the rules.  You don't.  The only thing you can't do is pick up a weapon.  Other than that, you can do *whatever* you want.

Again, this question goes out to those of you who are not trained in MMA.  Who here thinks they would win?


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Alright, everybody, this question goes out to everyone here that is not trained in MMA:
> 
> You versus an MMA fighter.  The MMA fighter has to follow the rules.  You don't.  The only thing you can't do is pick up a weapon.  Other than that, you can do *whatever* you want.
> 
> Again, this question goes out to those of you who are not trained in MMA.  Who here thinks they would win?


Do these kinds of questions keep you awake at night?  Seriously, who cares?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 30, 2021)

If you know your opponent will throw a straight punch at you. Can you block his punch? If your opponent throw 100 punches like this, can you block all those 100 punches?


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Do these kinds of questions keep you awake at night?  Seriously, who cares?


No, I formulate these questions as I read the dumb **** people like you say.  The intent is for you to think real hard and realize how stupid you sound.


----------



## drop bear (May 30, 2021)

jobo said:


> have you read it, ? its saying mma fighter punch at 2000psi and not your quoted 700
> 
> so clearly something is wrong
> 
> and psi is not the unit of force ,finding articles from others that dont understand physics isnt going to change that



Why are you using force as a measurement?


----------



## drop bear (May 30, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Do these kinds of questions keep you awake at night?  Seriously, who cares?



It is an Important question regarding the meta of martial arts.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Why are you using force as a measurement?


Apparently, we're supposed to listen to jobo and not the sports journals.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> No, I formulate these questions as I read the dumb **** people like you say.  The intent is for you to think real hard and realize how stupid you sound.


Ok, another serious question: what is with the personal attacks?  Did I ever attack or insult you?  If so, please tell me how, or better yet, direct me to the post I made with the insult.

the only thing I can think of is that I have disagreed with you on some topics, and I guess I have disagreed with some other folks with whom you seem to be of a like mind.  Are you unable to tolerate disagreement? If that is the problem then you probably should get off the forums right away. 

So what gives?


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Alright, everybody, this question goes out to everyone here that is not trained in MMA:
> 
> You versus an MMA fighter.  The MMA fighter has to follow the rules.  You don't.  The only thing you can't do is pick up a weapon.  Other than that, you can do *whatever* you want.
> 
> Again, this question goes out to those of you who are not trained in MMA.  Who here thinks they would win?


Depends if I'm the better fighter then I win. If he's the better fighter then he wins.    Pretty much how fighting goes regardless of the systems.


----------



## drop bear (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Apparently, we're supposed to listen to jobo and not the sports journals.



Yeah. It is a weird unit for punching power.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It is an Important question regarding the meta of martial arts.


The reason he acted so angrily toward a question he could have just ignored it's because if he were to try to answer it, his two choices would be to either admit something he doesn't want to admit or to say something where everyone can plainly see that he's full of it.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, another serious question: what is with the personal attacks?  Did I ever attack or insult you?  If so, please tell me how, or better yet, direct me to the post I made with the insult.
> 
> the only thing I can think of is that I have disagreed with you on some topics, and I guess I have disagreed with some other folks with whom you seem to be of a like mind.  Are you unable to tolerate disagreement? If that is the problem then you probably should get off the forums right away.
> 
> So what gives?


If you can't see how what I responded to warranted my response, that you've got the social skills of an autistic person.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Alright, everybody, this question goes out to everyone here that is not trained in MMA:
> 
> You versus an MMA fighter.  The MMA fighter has to follow the rules.  You don't.  The only thing you can't do is pick up a weapon.  Other than that, you can do *whatever* you want.
> 
> Again, this question goes out to those of you who are not trained in MMA.  Who here thinks they would win?


If I don't have to follow the rules then I'm bringing a weapon. I want to see how my staff training works. Saying that I can't use a weapon is a rule so I don't have to follow that rule. I'm bringing a gun too in case my staff training sucks. My answer I'll beat that MMa guy until he turn blue and purple.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If I don't have to follow the rules then I'm bringing a weapon. I want to see how my staff training works. Saying that I can't use a weapon is a rule so I don't have to follow that rule. I'm bringing a gun too in case my staff training sucks


In other words, your answer is "no."


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> If you can't see how what I responded to warranted my response, that you've got the social skills of an autistic person.


So you simply cannot tolerate disagreement?  You need to resort to personal attacks?
I am unable to see any justification for your response.  I don’t get it.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> So you simply cannot tolerate disagreement?  You need to resort to personal attacks?  I am unable to see any justification for your response. I don’t get it.





Flying Crane said:


> Do these kinds of questions keep you awake at night? Seriously, who cares?



Imagine that you and and your wife are hosting a barbecue at your place, and Bob from around the block says this to your wife right in front of you.

Are you going to write this off as him simply "disagreeing" with her, and then continue on with your day?

Because if you would, then maaannnnnn... I'd love to be a fly on the wall at your wife's next girls night out with the rest of the ladies who were there when they discuss this.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> In other words, your answer is "no."


You can't read. My answer is pie. Read my post again.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You can't read. My answer is pie.



If the answer is not yes, then it's no.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Imagine that you and and your wife are hosting a barbecue at your place, and Bob from around the block says this to your wife right in front of you.
> 
> Are you going to write this off as him simply "disagreeing" with her, and then continue on with your day?
> 
> Because if you would, that maaannnnnn... I'd love to be a fly on the wall at your wife's next girls night out with the rest of the ladies when they discuss this.


And this justifies personal attacks?  I’m a “dumb****” and have the “social skills of an autistic person”?  Seriously?

I did find the question silly but I didn’t use that as an excuse to call you names.  Why do you need to do that?


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Imagine that you and and your wife are hosting a barbecue at your place, and Bob from around the block says this to your wife right in front of you.
> 
> Are you going to write this off as him simply "disagreeing" with her, and then continue on with your day?
> 
> Because if you would, then maaannnnnn... I'd love to be a fly on the wall at your wife's next girls night out with the rest of the ladies who were there when they discuss this.


I know Bob he's a jersey.  I'm sure he wouldn't be invited in the first place.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> If the answer is not yes, then it's no.


That's your my answer is blue.

I'm not sure why you can't read what I posted. My answer was really clear.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> And this justifies personal attacks?  I’m a “dumb****” and have the “social skills of an autistic person”?  Seriously?
> 
> I did find the question silly but I didn’t use that as an excuse to call you names.  Why do you need to do that?



If nothing justified it before, this response definitely does!🤣😂😅

I'm just going to leave you with this, because your skull seems to be very thick one to get through: if you come at someone with aggression, then expect aggression in return.


----------



## MetalBoar (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Alright, everybody, this question goes out to everyone here that is not trained in MMA:
> 
> You versus an MMA fighter.  The MMA fighter has to follow the rules.  You don't.  The only thing you can't do is pick up a weapon.  Other than that, you can do *whatever* you want.
> 
> Again, this question goes out to those of you who are not trained in MMA.  Who here thinks they would win?


Are you talking a current, pro MMA fighter or a 50 year old MMA hobbyist? If I have to fight a guy 25 years younger than I am and he's doing it for a living I think the odds are heavily in his favor. If we're gonna make it fair we need to alternate rounds between fighting and troubleshooting network problems or deploying Linux servers in a virtualized environment and a coin flip determines which we start with. If it's a 50 year old hobbyist I think I've got a reasonable chance of winning depending on how seriously he takes his training and how his physical condition compares to the average 50 year old martial arts hobbyist.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> If nothing justified it before, this response definitely does!🤣😂😅
> 
> I'm just going to leave you with this, because your skull seems to be very thick one to get through: if you come at someone with aggression, then expect aggression in return.


You read my response as aggressive?  Really?  There was none intended.  I did poke a bit at you with that question, I will admit.  That happens a lot here in the forums.  But it’s a real stretch to call that aggression. 

And so you call names and make personal attacks.  Hmm...


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> Are you talking a current, pro MMA fighter or a 50 year old MMA hobbyist? If I have to fight a guy 25 years younger than I am and he's doing it for a living I think the odds are heavily in his favor. If we're gonna make it fair we need to alternate rounds between fighting and troubleshooting network problems or deploying Linux servers in a virtualized environment and a coin flip determines which we start with. If it's a 50 year old hobbyist I think I've got a reasonable chance of winning depending on how seriously he takes his training and how his physical condition compares to the average 50 year old martial arts hobbyist.


You get it  lol.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> Are you talking a current, pro MMA fighter or a 50 year old MMA hobbyist? If I have to fight a guy 25 years younger than I am and he's doing it for a living I think the odds are heavily in his favor. If we're gonna make it fair we need to alternate rounds between fighting and troubleshooting network problems or deploying Linux servers in a virtualized environment and a coin flip determines which we start with. If it's a 50 year old hobbyist I think I've got a reasonable chance of winning depending on how seriously he takes his training and how his physical condition compares to the average 50 year old martial arts hobbyist.



Here's the point I'm trying to make: someone is trying to say that if a fight has rules, then it's not a real fight.

I say that if you can win on the streets by only using techniques that are permitted within a particular combat sports, then the participants within that combat sports are in a real fight.

I can tell you that if you see real fights on the street, the only rule you're likely to see being broken might be groin shots.

I've never once seen anyone eye gouge or fish hook another person before.

You don't have to do any of that to beat a person in a real fight.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I can tell you that if you see real fights on the street, the only rule you're likely you're likely to see being broken might be groin shots.


Real street fight .. definitely not a groin shot


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

Real street fight.  This is why you have kung fu forms fighting with benches.  Still no groin shot


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Real street fight .. definitely not a groin shot



If that's a fight, then so is a parent spanking a child with a belt.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

Another real street fight.  Lots of chairs


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Real street fight.  This is why you have kung fu forms fighting with benches.  Still no groin shot



I didn't say that a groin shot was going to happen every time, I just said it's the one that's most likely.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Here's the point I'm trying to make: someone is trying to say that if a fight has rules, then it's not a real fight.


Ok, fair point and I think there is gray area there but point taken.  Now this whole little issue I think comes from a video clip that you had posted.  I’ll be honest in saying I don’t really get what you were trying to show by posting that clip.  What did you intend would be the takeaway?



> I say that if you can win on the streets by only using techniques that are permitted within a particular combat sports, then the participants within that combat sports are in a real fight.


Well they are In a fight yes.  But it has controls and parameters to ensure some ultimate level of fairness and safety.  But no denial, they are fighting.  Sure.


> I can tell you that if you see real fights on the street, the only rule you're likely you're likely to see being broken might be groin shots.
> 
> I've never once seen anyone eye gouge or fish hook another person before.
> 
> You don't have to do any of that to beat a person in a real fight.



I think it depends on the participants and the circumstances.  If one person is being attacked on the street by someone who they perceive as intent on doing them bodily harm, who is bigger than they are and they feel a genuine sense of desperation, then “breaking the rules” is likely to happen more readily.  So eye gouges, fishhooks, smashing them in the head with a rock, etc.

Can some people win against an attacker (not an agreed-to duel) without that kind of thing?  Sure.  Others? Maybe not. It depends.

I’ll go a step further and say that I really don’t understand your follow-up question about whether some of us think we could win against an MMA competitor.  I don’t see the connection or relevance of that question.  Hence, my earlier response to it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

Chairs and big tables thrown.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I’ll go a step further and say that I really don’t understand your follow-up question about whether some of us think we could win against an MMA competitor.  I don’t see the connection or relevance of that question.  Hence, my earlier response to it.



If an MMA fighter can beat you by only using techniques that are allowed in UFC, Bellator, etc; then it's kind of impossible to dismiss their fights as "not real."

By the way, there were better ways to respond to that question.


----------



## jobo (May 30, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Why are you using force as a measurement?





drop bear said:


> Why are you using force as a measurement?


im not he is,


----------



## jobo (May 30, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. It is a weird unit for punching power.


which unit would you prefer


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I didn't say that a groin shot was going to happen every time, I just said it's the one that's most likely.


I'm pretty sure I can find more video of people fighting with chairs than you can of fights where people get kicked in the groin.  So in that light, If there's a chair a round and an option to do a groin kick.  you will probably get hit with the chair. 

Groin kicks require a specific distance in order to be successful with it.  If the person is too close or too far, then there won't be any groin kicks that day unless you can create the necessary distance.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> If an MMA fighter can beat you by only using techniques that are allowed in UFC, Bellator, etc; then it's kind of impossible to dismiss their fights as "not real."
> 
> By the way, there were better ways to respond to that question.


I personally don’t dismiss their fights as not real.  I do recognize that they occur under a rule set and within certain parameters.  I have never dismissed their skill sets nor general toughness as competitors.  I also feel that @MetalBoar and @JowGaWolf have made valid points in their posts.  Not every MMA person is a champion competitor.  Some are hobbyists and have no chance, nor even desire, to be competitors.  There are people who happen to train in an MMA gym who are no more skilled that anyone else.  MMA does not automatically mean “***-kicker”.  I am sure there are some against whom I could prevail, and others against whom I could not.  But if the fellow is thirty years my junior and has the time to train like it’s a full-time job in preparation for his next championship bout, then of course the odds are in his favor.  Who would think otherwise?  This is not a surprise.

there probably were better ways I could have responded to that question.  And of course there were better ways you could have responded as well.  Meh.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I really don’t understand your follow-up question about whether some of us think we could win against an MMA competitor. I don’t see the connection or relevance of that question.


This


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

jobo said:


> which unit would you prefer


Visual effect.  Does my opponent go to sleep right after the punch lol


----------



## jobo (May 30, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Why are you using force as a measurement?





Urban Trekker said:


> Alright, everybody, this question goes out to everyone here that is not trained in MMA:
> 
> You versus an MMA fighter.  The MMA fighter has to follow the rules.  You don't.  The only thing you can't do is pick up a weapon.  Other than that, you can do *whatever* you want.
> 
> Again, this question goes out to those of you who are not trained in MMA.  Who here thinks they would win?


 how old is he and what weight, if he is 70 and 140lbs il have him no trouble


----------



## Alan0354 (May 30, 2021)

It is hard to say which way to measure the punching power is right. The point is if everyone is being measured the same way, the same standard, it does give you an idea of the relative power.


----------



## jobo (May 30, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> It is hard to say which way to measure the punching power is right. The point is if everyone is being measured the same way, the same standard, it does give you an idea of the relative power.


that would possibly be true, some are using calibrated lab equipment and some are using a speak your weight machine at a fair ground, strangely the results dont seem to correlate, cant understand why that could be


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> It is hard to say which way to measure the punching power is right. The point is if everyone is being measured the same way, the same standard, it does give you an idea of the relative power.


I don't put much into measuring punching power.  No matter how hard someone can hit, that person still has to have a way of landing the punch, while dealing with incoming strikes and the risks of take downs and throws.


----------



## Alan0354 (May 30, 2021)

jobo said:


> that would possibly be true, some are using calibrated lab equipment and some are using a speak your weight machine at a fair ground, strangely the results dont seem to correlate, cant understand why that could be


If there is no standard, then it's meaningless.


----------



## Alan0354 (May 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't put much into measuring punching power.  No matter how hard someone can hit, that person still has to have a way of landing the punch, while dealing with incoming strikes and the risks of take downs and throws.


Absolutely agree, it's only one way of measure of power, nothing about knocking one out. To measure power, you have a chance to stand in front of the machine, get ready, stand in perfect distance, aim and punch. It is a measure at the optimal situation. In real fight, target move around, if the distance is not optimize, even if you land the punch, it doesn't have the max power. Punching power and one punch knock out is "almost" a two different thing ( of cause, if you are heavy puncher, chances are much better to have a one punch knock out......of cause).


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't put much into measuring punching power.  No matter how hard someone can hit, that person still has to have a way of landing the punch, while dealing with incoming strikes and the risks of take downs and throws.


It can be interesting academically.  But it only tells part of the story.  

Im not convinced the numbers are terribly meaningful however.  If landed cleanly on a good target and with good timing, a less powerful punch can be more destructive than a more powerful one.  My punch does not need to be more powerful than my enemy’s.  It only needs to be powerful enough to be effective in combination with my skill to land it.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Not every MMA person is a champion competitor.  Some are hobbyists and have no chance, nor even desire, to be competitors.  There are people who happen to train in an MMA gym who are no more skilled that anyone else.  MMA does not automatically mean “***-kicker”.



In this case, I'm talking about competitors.  And they don't necessarily have to be national level like UFC or Bellator.  They could be competing in a local promotion.

I'm sure not everyone will agree because we all have different points of view on what the main predictor of the outcome of a fight is.  But mine is physical fitness.  In my mind, any and every technique in your repertoire is worthless if you get winded after a few seconds.

Competing in MMA requires exceptional physical conditioning that is not demanded of anyone that is not in competitive sports.

And then there's the actual experience that they have.  Another strong predictor.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

If punching power is worthless, then professional fighters wouldn't have more of it than the average person.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> In this case, I'm talking about competitors.  And they don't necessarily have to be national level like UFC or Bellator.  They could be competing in a local promotion.
> 
> I'm sure not everyone will agree because we all have different points of view on what the main predictor of the outcome of a fight is.  But mine is physical fitness.  In my mind, any and every technique in your repertoire is worthless if you get winded after a few seconds.
> 
> ...


Well look at that.  We can find some common ground.  I don’t see anything to disagree with here.

My only caveat is to be careful of equating “would likely lose against youthful and athletic competitor who is probably training 20 or more hours a week” with “can’t fight his way out of a wet paper bag”.  The two are not the same.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> If punching power is worthless, then professional fighters wouldn't have more of it than the average person.


I might have missed a post.  Did someone say punching power is worthless?


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> If punching power is worthless, then professional fighters wouldn't have more of it than the average person.


1st.  No one is saying punching power is worthless.
2nd.  Professional fighters are good a landing the punch and they learn how to land the punch before they worry about the power.   Professional fighters don't always try to throw their hardest punch.


----------



## jobo (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> In this case, I'm talking about competitors.  And they don't necessarily have to be national level like UFC or Bellator.  They could be competing in a local promotion.
> 
> I'm sure not everyone will agree because we all have different points of view on what the main predictor of the outcome of a fight is.  But mine is physical fitness.  In my mind, any and every technique in your repertoire is worthless if you get winded after a few seconds.
> 
> ...


its not demanded, but lots of people not in competitive sport have a very good level of it


----------



## jobo (May 30, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> If there is no standard, then it's meaningless.


well exactly, a point i made some hours ago


----------



## drop bear (May 30, 2021)

jobo said:


> which unit would you prefer


Psi


----------



## jobo (May 30, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Psi


pounds per square inch is a unit of force, (sort off/nearly)


----------



## Hanzou (May 30, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Anyway. If I absolutely had to send a guy unconscious. I would choke them out.
> 
> It is more reliable.



Not to mention safer. You risk damaging or even breaking your hand by punching people. There's even a risk of infection if you break the skin of your hand, which is very possible via hitting their teeth.


----------



## donald1 (May 30, 2021)

I cant comment on grappling. I don't practice grappling arts. Not enough experience...

Being able to one punch knock out doesn't mean too much if you can't land a hit. Means even less if your opponent catches your arm and hyper extendeds it... It seems kinda silly to rely on one thing, even if its effective...

Would be funny if their opponent one hit knocked them out first... or grapple them before they can land a one hit blow.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2021)

donald1 said:


> I cant comment on grappling. I don't practice grappling arts. Not enough experience...
> 
> Being able to one punch knock out doesn't mean too much if you can't land a hit. Means even less if your opponent catches your arm and hyper extendeds it... It seems kinda silly to rely on one thing, even if its effective...
> 
> Would be funny if their opponent one hit knocked them out first... or grapple them before they can land a one hit blow.


I don’t think anyone is advocating that it should be the only thing to rely on, or that it is to be expected.  I’ve only said that I believe it is possible, and I believe it is within my capability.  Never once claimed it would be my automatic go-to.


----------



## Urban Trekker (May 30, 2021)

Sigh.  The problem I'm starting to see here now is that we're either acting like landing a punch is some high-level talent that only an elite few can do, or as though it's common to run into people that can dodge your punches like Mayweather.

Neither are true.  If you can punch hard, you have an advantage on the streets.  Point, blank, period.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Sigh.  The problem I'm starting to see here now is that we're either acting like landing a punch is some high-level talent that only an elite few can do, or as though it's common to run into people that can dodge your punches like Mayweather.
> 
> Neither are true.  If you can punch hard, you have an advantage on the streets.  Point, blank, period.


I can agree with that.


----------



## RagingBull (May 31, 2021)

wow....great thread   nothing like a bit of discussion


----------



## isshinryuronin (May 31, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> It can be interesting academically.  But it only tells part of the story.
> 
> Im not convinced the numbers are terribly meaningful however.  If landed cleanly on a good target and with good timing, a less powerful punch can be more destructive than a more powerful one.   My punch does not need to be more powerful than my enemy’s.  It only needs to be powerful enough to be effective in combination with my skill to land it.


At last the main point is made.  If that punch lands and is strong enough to render the opponent unable to effectively continue, even for a couple of seconds (allowing an easy follow-up) it has done its job - regardless of how strong the other guy's punch may be.  It doesn't have to be stronger, just strong enough.

Most moderately trained (or well-conditioned) people have enough power to potentially stop an attacker with a punch, so power is not the main issue.  Skill in delivering it to a vital target - accuracy, tactics, timing and speed - are the more important concerns, and should be one's focus in training. 

P.S.  Skill in NOT getting hit is good, too.


----------



## RagingBull (May 31, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> P.S. Skill in NOT getting hit is good, too.


don´t always work out like that does it.


----------



## RagingBull (May 31, 2021)

jobo said:


> well exactly, a point i made some hours ago


yes Jobby jobo you are always correct.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 31, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> don´t always work out like that does it.


I would say it’s an ongoing challenge.


----------



## RagingBull (May 31, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I would say it’s an ongoing challenge.


does not make sense...


----------



## Flying Crane (May 31, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> does not make sense...


“Skill in not getting hit”

“don’t always work out that way”

Yeah, it’s something we are always working on.


----------



## RagingBull (May 31, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> “Skill in not getting hit”
> 
> “don’t always work out that way”
> 
> Yeah, it’s something we are always working on.


well i think it´s better to train to take some punishment . The Dojo Queen thinks the Sensei knows it all goes out & gets punched in the teeth. not used to any pain crumbles & loses. sorry but seen it so often. 
I sort of understand you bro ....but.......................................


----------



## Flying Crane (May 31, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> well i think it´s better to train to take some punishment . The Dojo Queen thinks the Sensei knows it all goes out & gets punched in the teeth. not used to any pain crumbles & loses. sorry but seen it so often.
> I sort of understand you bro ....but.......................................


I don’t think we are disagreeing, actually.  Getting hit is part of it.  Not getting hit is better, if possible.  We always strive to be better.  We are not always successful.   Such is life.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 1, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Sigh.  The problem I'm starting to see here now is that we're either acting like landing a punch is some high-level talent that only an elite few can do, or as though it's common to run into people that can dodge your punches like Mayweather.
> 
> Neither are true.  If you can punch hard, you have an advantage on the streets.  Point, blank, period.


Depends on if you have the cardio.  If your cardio is bad then that hard punch drops off in power really quick.

Not trying to nick pick or be a jerk.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Jun 1, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Depends on if you have the cardio.  If your cardio is bad then that hard punch drops off in power really quick.
> 
> Not trying to nick pick or be a jerk.



Not with the first punch, unless you have a disability.

I seriously doubt Goldmouth could even run an eighth of a mile, but a punch from him when you're trying to hold onto your cornbread is probably going to be pretty hard one.


----------



## Nobodaddy (Jun 1, 2021)

1. You might miss.
2. You might get taken to the ground.
3. You might not WANT to knock someone out. Your drunken mother-in-law tackles you at a funeral? Probably not a good time to knock her out.


----------



## Nuuli (Jun 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Should people train the striking art before the grappling art?
> 
> IMO, since you have to deal with your opponent's punch, it makes no sense to jump into the grappling art without first train the striking art.


IMO, I would agree to a point. Now for kids, I would strongly encourage grappling arts over striking. It avoids, the automatic suspension they can get from a fight at school.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 1, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Not with the first punch, unless you have a disability.
> 
> I seriously doubt Goldmouth could even run an eighth of a mile, but a punch from him when you're trying to hold onto your cornbread is probably going to be pretty hard one.


Just keep moving so he doesn't take your cornbread.  Lol. Don't let him take your cornbread lol


----------



## gillpad (Jun 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?



Because you say opponent, I assume you mean someone who is ready to fight you, not someone who is just standing there doing nothing.  So unless you are skilled boxer, this is probably out of your reach.  Those who think they can knock someone out with one punch just because they have taken martial arts have never actually been in a fight.   Being a black belt in in any martial art doesn't mean you can actually knock out or even beat up a good street fighter.  I know this because I grew up as a street fighter  - and was a good one, able to wrestle (since I was a wrestler) and to box, which I always chose in any fight, since I didn't have to get dirty taking the fight to the ground.   Its not easy to knock someone out -- and I'm guessing most of the 'skilled' martial artists out there have never actually been in a street fight, so its easy to let your imagination run wild with how effective your punching skills are.  They probably aren't.  The way to really test yourself is to work out with someone who is good at both standing and ground fighting.  If you haven't wrestled for at least 3-4 years, or done judo for the same, you might be very surprised at how ineffective you are once you leave your feet.  The skilled judo dudes will gladly go to their backs as they choke you with your own collar.  Try knocking that out.

(Mod edit: corrected quote tag)


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 1, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Alright, everybody, this question goes out to everyone here that is not trained in MMA:
> 
> You versus an MMA fighter.  The MMA fighter has to follow the rules.  You don't.  The only thing you can't do is pick up a weapon.  Other than that, you can do *whatever* you want.
> 
> Again, this question goes out to those of you who are not trained in MMA.  Who here thinks they would win?


Why would you pick an MMA fighter? Especially if they need to follow the rules.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 1, 2021)

I would have absolutely no worries, concerning fighting anyone that trains in MMA.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Jun 1, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Why would you pick an MMA fighter? Especially if they need to follow the rules.



I'll restate the point that I was trying to make with this: that street fights can be, and often times are, won by using only techniques that are allowed in MMA promotions.

This time around, I'll even cite an example: Kimbo Slice's backyard fight videos.  We don't even have to do MMA, we can just do boxing, which is even more restrictive: in the majority of his videos, everything Kimbo Slice did is permissible in boxing.  He fought strictly using his fist only, while most of his opponents used all eight striking points and grappled.

That being said, if it's possible to win real fights using only techniques that are allowable in combat sports; then that makes combat sports real fights.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 1, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'll restate the point that I was trying to make with this: that street fights can be, and often times are, won by using only techniques that are allowed in MMA promotions.
> 
> This time around, I'll even cite an example: Kimbo Slice's backyard fight videos.  We don't even have to do MMA, we can just do boxing, which is even more restrictive: in the majority of his videos, everything Kimbo Slice did is permissible in boxing.  He fought strictly using his fist only, while most of his opponents used all eight striking points and grappled.
> 
> That being said, if it's possible to win real fights using only techniques that are allowable in combat sports; then that makes combat sports real fights.


Kimbo slice backyard fights had rules.  Street fights are going to be fought with the skills they have and, or with the weapons that are available.  I wouldn't put street fight on the same level as sports fighting.  As for the issue about what is considered a real fight, I wouldn't worry about.  I set the bar low. A real fight for me is when some intentionally tries to do great harm to me.  Then from there, I can identify levels of great harm


----------



## AIKIKENJITSU (Jun 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?


Well, I've been in martial arts for fifty years and still teach. My main art is my version of American Kenpo. You need to know some grappling. I replaced all the joint locks that Ed Parker took out for speed sake. I'm 5'2" and I've been grabbed tightly before in a conflict. If I had not been able to utilize a joint move circular motion to get me out of his power grip and spot, it might have ended badly. But all my conflicts ended well. You need joint locks and circular motion sometimes, to get you out of the attacker's power zone and you into your own zone.
Remember, the option is to know and practice both Lines and Circles. I practice joint locks from the fingers up to the shoulders.
Keep in mind, I do not practice Jujitsu on the ground or otherwise. I pick and chose joint locks and the moves that would get me off the ground immediately if not sooner.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA


----------



## drop bear (Jun 1, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Why would you pick an MMA fighter? Especially if they need to follow the rules.


They have a greater ability to do damage.

It doesn't matter if somewhere in your tool box you have some ultimate ninja move if you are being punched in the face.


----------



## GodSpearCQB (Jun 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?


Although I enjoyed my years of grappling, being older now and not wanting to get bruised up, stabbed again, or surrounded by the enemy (also happened in the past) I would never strike with less than lethality as intention. Any threat in the street in todays society I consider a threat to life. Survival is not a sport. Cutting the Throat, Carotid, heart stem, femoral, kidney, liver, pancreas are all primary targets, eyes and groin as only distractions. I would NEVER punch someone in the head, it is pointless. That being said MMA is the only sport I watch, I love the heart the young put into it.


----------



## JerryL (Jun 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?


My first thought is "why am I getting emails from a site I've not posted on in 14 years". 
My second thought is, what you are implying is idiotic. 

If I can shoot you, I don't need a punching art. 

So you are either postulating "if you get lucky", which is pointless;  or you are implying that the impossible (a 100% certainty of a given outcome) is possible, which is delusional.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> They have a greater ability to do damage.
> 
> It doesn't matter if somewhere in your tool box you have some ultimate ninja move if you are being punched in the face.


Opinions vary,

The punching in the face comment, makes me giggle. If the only time you have been punched in the face, is while training or sparring in a sport art, you have a long way to go, in using your ability for an actual encounter.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 1, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'll restate the point that I was trying to make with this: that street fights can be, and often times are, won by using only techniques that are allowed in MMA promotions.
> 
> This time around, I'll even cite an example: Kimbo Slice's backyard fight videos.  We don't even have to do MMA, we can just do boxing, which is even more restrictive: in the majority of his videos, everything Kimbo Slice did is permissible in boxing.  He fought strictly using his fist only, while most of his opponents used all eight striking points and grappled.
> 
> That being said, if it's possible to win real fights using only techniques that are allowable in combat sports; then that makes combat sports real fights.


You mean punching and kicking? Pretty much usable in any art.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 1, 2021)

I guess it should be stated, that I personally, am not a sport fighting fan. Never have been.


----------



## Marlene Morga (Jun 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?


Sometimes it's good to learn grappling just for fun or for when the situation calls for it. If you get knocked down by surprise and your opponent tries to pin you down, then grappling techniques are necessary. As for the one punch knockout, never use it unless others are around you and the attacker would put them in harm's way. To finish a fight when others are vulnerable to be victims of the attacker besides you, use verbal negotiation, and if he doesn't listen, then one punch is okay. Not a full on barrage of counterattack. Thanks for posting this question. I was curious and wanted to test my knowledge on the subject.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 1, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Do you believe a one punch knockout is an impossibility?



It isn't really a choice. 


Graywalker said:


> Opinions vary,
> 
> The punching in the face comment, makes me giggle. If the only time you have been punched in the face, is while training or sparring in a sport art, you have a long way to go, in using your ability for an actual encounter.



I have been punched in the face harder in training than I have ever been in a street fight. It sets you up better for a street fight than street fighting.

Anyway this is a rule set that allows head buts kicks knees and elbows.






And yet face punching is still a core principle for winning fights.


----------



## JerryL (Jun 1, 2021)

GodSpearCQB said:


> Cutting the Throat, Carotid, heart stem, femoral, kidney, liver, pancreas are all primary targets, eyes and groin as only distractions. I would NEVER punch someone in the head, it is pointless. That being said MMA is the only sport I watch, I love the heart the young put into it.


Oh where to begin.

The carotid is in the throat, so that's kind of redundant.
None of the organs you list are particularly useful as a stabbing target unless your goal is for them to die tomorrow.
Stabbing to the eye is more effective than the pancreas will ever be.
Hitting in the head is very effective. Have you never seen a boxing match?
I guess not: have you actually not watched enough MMA to see head-punch knock-outs? I can find you links.

It's strange to me that you've assumed you do have a knife, but don't have a firearm.

PS: None of the things discussed (except a head hit resulting in knockout) is an immediate end to the fight. Ever shoot a deer in the heart? They often run half a football field before going down. People aren't different (just slower)


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It isn't how you should fight.
> 
> 
> I have been punched in the face harder in training than I have ever been in a street fight. It sets you up better for a street fight than street fighting.
> ...


Really, with padded hands, that had to be an extremely weak punch.

Yeah, that is nothing new (video) seen and trained that way in my younger days.

These training methods are nothing new.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 1, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Really, with padded hands, that had to be an extremely weak punch.
> 
> Yeah, that is nothing new (video) seen and trained that way in my younger days.
> 
> These training methods are nothing new.



Yes with 16oz gloves.

Because the guys I train with can fundamentally fight better than your average street fighter.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yes with 16oz gloves.
> 
> Because the guys I train with can fundamentally fight better than your average street fighter.


Again an opinion. You should ask them, how often the have actually fought a street fighter.

I think it is more of a claim than an actuality.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 1, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Again an opinion. You should ask them, how often the have actually fought a street fighter.
> 
> I think it is more of a claim than an actuality.



The thing is that street systems think they have some sort of monopoly on how many of their guys have engaged in street fights. And they don't. 

So the answer is the same as everybody else.


----------



## JerryL (Jun 1, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Really, with padded hands, that had to be an extremely weak punch.


*sigh*

The purpose of gloves is to protect the boxer's hands. 

If a boxer took the same swing bare-knuckle that he does in a glove and were to hit something hard (like the top of the head), he's a high probability to damage those small bones in his hand. 

Pre gloves, that was used as a tactic in boxing. Expose your face then drop your head when the punch comes.


----------



## tlc4355 (Jun 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?


So forsaking the concept of mobility and assuming that one's opponent is going to stand face to face and afford one the opportunity to strike...

Why am I even responding to this....


----------



## drop bear (Jun 1, 2021)

tlc4355 said:


> So forsaking the concept of mobility and assuming that one's opponent is going to stand face to face and afford one the opportunity to strike...
> 
> Why am I even responding to this....



Yeah. People seem to be treating it like a technique or a choice.

And it definitely isn't.


----------



## JerryL (Jun 1, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Do you believe a one punch knockout is an impossibility?


I don't. 

Do you believe it's possible to reliable knock out every opponent with your first punch, and that you will always be able to punch? 

Because if you do, you are wrong; and if you do not, you will need a backup plan.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 1, 2021)

JerryL said:


> I don't.
> 
> Do you believe it's possible to reliable knock out every opponent with your first punch, and that you will always be able to punch?
> 
> Because if you do, you are wrong; and if you do not, you will need a backup plan.


Of course.

did you think I was suggesting otherwise?


----------



## JerryL (Jun 1, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course.
> 
> did you think I was suggesting otherwise?


I didn't follow that thread, so I didn't have context; but that was one possible inference.

It's strongly implied to be the OP's position.


----------



## DTACTUSA Larry (Jun 1, 2021)

In law enforcement training we train the LEO's to first deal with problems while standing, especially if they are alone or without back-up. Going to the ground is dangerous if you don't have back-up. You never know who is an enemy or ally, and you have weapon retentions to consider.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 1, 2021)

JerryL said:


> *sigh*
> 
> The purpose of gloves is to protect the boxer's hands.
> 
> ...


So, gloves weaken the destructive ability of a punch.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The thing is that street systems think they have some sort of monopoly on how many of their guys have engaged in street fights. And they don't.
> 
> So the answer is the same as everybody e


Street systems, is that even a real thing. If you want to be a fighter, Striking', kicking and wrestling, is about all you need...it takes much more, to be an artist...imo.


----------



## Josh Oakley (Jun 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?



I think that's a bad way to train. You don' know who you'll fight. You don't know their training, endurance, ability to take a hit, etc. I cannot stress this enough: Saitama is just an anime character.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Jun 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?



I never responded to this directly, so here goes: regardless of how hard you can punch, if you yourself cannot *take* a punch, then grappling is your friend.  Grappling significantly reduces the likelihood that you'll take a punch to the face at full momentum.

If you can't take a punch, you're far better off as a trained grappler and untrained striker than the other way around.


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Jun 1, 2021)

Even though u can knock out with one punch or kick it doesn't happend all time so u still need to use grappling.


----------



## C Sal (Jun 2, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?


Man as much as one would LOVE to do so, train to be able to have many punches. There was some research done on top boxers like Manny Pacquiao. On an average bout, about 30% of punches actually connect and land. Of those punches that landed only a few can actually be can be considered a knock out punch.


----------



## zenfrog (Jun 2, 2021)

It boils down to "if".


----------



## Urban Trekker (Jun 2, 2021)

C Sal said:


> Man as much as one would LOVE to do so, train to be able to have many punches. There was some research done on top boxers like Manny Pacquiao. On an average bout, about 30% of punches actually connect and land. Of those punches that landed only a few can actually be can be considered a knock out punch.



Well, assuming that OP is talking about a fight on the streets, the strategy is not going to be the same.

Chasing KO's from the start of a boxing match is bad strategy, whereas you're trying to end a street fight as soon as possible.

If I had to guess, the landing percentage is higher on the streets, mainly because most untrained fighters are horrible at defense.


----------



## C Sal (Jun 2, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Well, assuming that OP is talking about a fight on the streets, the strategy is not going to be the same.
> 
> Chasing KO's from the start of a boxing match is bad strategy, whereas you're trying to end a street fight as soon as possible.
> 
> If I had to guess, the landing percentage is higher on the streets, mainly because most untrained fighters are horrible at defense.



"If I had to guess, the landing percentage is higher on the streets, mainly because most untrained fighters are horrible at defence"

Yeah, that's a valid point.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> By the way, there were better ways to respond to that question.


That's ironic.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Jun 2, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That's ironic.


So is this.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> In this case, I'm talking about competitors.  And they don't necessarily have to be national level like UFC or Bellator.  They could be competing in a local promotion.
> 
> I'm sure not everyone will agree because we all have different points of view on what the main predictor of the outcome of a fight is.  But mine is physical fitness.  In my mind, any and every technique in your repertoire is worthless if you get winded after a few seconds.
> 
> ...


It'll depend how good the competitor is. Right now, I'd make a bad showing (I haven't kept in shape well over the last year, and haven't trained with a partner in a long time now). But I've seen some video of some really bad MMA competitors (they didn't win, of course), and I'd maybe still do well against them if I can control it early so they don't wear me out.

My answer 20 years ago would be different, but a bit the same. My striking strategy and defense weren't as good then, but my toughness and fitness were signficantly better.


----------



## jobo (Jun 2, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> So, gloves weaken the destructive ability of a punch.


yes and no, they substantially decrease the destruction of your hand whilst sticking a lb or so on the weight of your arm which can make the punch more effective


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Opinions vary,
> 
> The punching in the face comment, makes me giggle. If the only time you have been punched in the face, is while training or sparring in a sport art, you have a long way to go, in using your ability for an actual encounter.


I'm confused. Are you suggesting that an MMA competitor pounding your face is somehow less disorienting than someone on the street?


----------



## jobo (Jun 2, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Well, assuming that OP is talking about a fight on the streets, the strategy is not going to be the same.
> 
> Chasing KO's from the start of a boxing match is bad strategy, whereas you're trying to end a street fight as soon as possible.
> 
> If I had to guess, the landing percentage is higher on the streets, mainly because most untrained fighters are horrible at defense.


well maybe, its not unlikely someone will come straight at you with their hands down from guard, you really should be able to hit them and hit them hard. thats still harder to time than punching a fair ground machine, particularly if they are coming fast, which they tend to do, once they have decided to fight you

but its also far from unlikely, that they will have the reactions to move or the speed to hit you first


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2021)

jobo said:


> yes and no, they substantially decrease the destruction of your hand whilst sticking a lb or so on the weight of your arm which can make the punch more effective


Specifically for KO punches, this should be true, since the best evidence I've seen is that it's pretty much all about momentum transfer off-axis.


----------



## Renshi I (Jun 2, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?


That's like asking if order a steak do I need a spoon. You won't knock out every opponent. When you encounter someone who can take your lunch and keep coming, you better have some other skills


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 2, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'm confused. Are you suggesting that an MMA competitor pounding your face is somehow less disorienting than someone on the street?


No, I am saying bare knuckles, will do more damage than padded.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 2, 2021)

jobo said:


> yes and no, they substantially decrease the destruction of your hand whilst sticking a lb or so on the weight of your arm which can make the punch more effective


I see and agree with most of your statement. But, I have done both and in my own personal experience, it doesn't seem to matter as much as people think. The lbs that is, as a matter of fact, getting hit with gloves, never really affected me much....even during the time that I would spar boxers at Ringside (local boxing club).


----------



## jobo (Jun 2, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I never responded to this directly, so here goes: regardless of how hard you can punch, if you yourself cannot *take* a punch, then grappling is your friend.  Grappling significantly reduces the likelihood that you'll take a punch to the face at full momentum.
> 
> If you can't take a punch, you're far better off as a trained grappler and untrained striker than the other way around.





Renshi I said:


> That's like asking if order a steak do I need a spoon. You won't knock out every opponent. When you encounter someone who can take your lunch and keep coming, you better have some other skills


if they take my lunch I'm going  knock them over no matter what, if it one thing i cant stand its lunch nickers


----------



## JerryL (Jun 2, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> So, gloves weaken the destructive ability of a punch.


No. They absolutely do not do that. 

By protecting the hand, and often the wrist, gloves allow the striker to hit *harder*. 

And while the gloves can offer some protection to small, exposed bones (like cheekbones) and skin, thus making boxing matches less bloody; they do nothing at all to help the neck or brain, which is now far more damaged because it's been hit harder.


----------



## JerryL (Jun 2, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> as a matter of fact, getting hit with gloves, never really affected me much....


I look forward to your career in professional boxing as you appear to be the only human on the planet unaffected by being punched when the striker is wearing a glove. 

Wealth and fame await you. Go forth!


----------



## JerryL (Jun 2, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> No, I am saying bare knuckles, will do more damage than padded.


More damage to the skin? Yes. More damage to small, nigh-exposed bones (cheek bones, optical orbit, perhaps even rib)? Yes. 
More damage to the spine and brain? No. Gloves protect the small bones in the hand allowing a harder overall hit to be delivered safely ("safe" in this case being "safe for the hand") resulting in greater concussive force. 

Moving from bare-knuckle to gloved boxing increased brain damage in boxers.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 2, 2021)

JerryL said:


> More damage to the skin? Yes. More damage to small, nigh-exposed bones (cheek bones, optical orbit, perhaps even rib)? Yes.
> More damage to the spine and brain? No. Gloves protect the small bones in the hand allowing a harder overall hit to be delivered safely ("safe" in this case being "safe for the hand") resulting in greater concussive force.
> 
> Moving from bare-knuckle to gloved boxing increased brain damage in boxers.



There is a inbetween, more depends on the gloves you are talking about and how much padding and where.    Your talking about displacing the surface area of both the force of your punch and the force of the persons face onto your fist.      But standard combat sports gloves now days seem to enable more force to be delivered to places it otherwise wouldnt. 

(a quote may have been null here)


----------



## JerryL (Jun 2, 2021)

Rat said:


> There is a inbetween, more depends on the gloves you are talking about and how much padding and where.    Your talking about displacing the surface area of both the force of your punch and the force of the persons face onto your fist.      But standard combat sports gloves now days seem to enable more force to be delivered to places it otherwise wouldnt.
> 
> (a quote may have been null here)


A larger glove (say a boxing glove vs a bag glove) will likely offer more protection for a rib. 

But brains aren't hit by hands, they are hit by the insides of skulls. The issue for brain and neck injury is about the amount and rapidity of the movement of the head. A heavy enough pillow would not be ineffective. 

The physics for organ damage is a bit different, and so nuanced that the juice is not worth the squeeze, but when discussing what is realistically the most important effect of striking (the ability to disorient and knock-out an opponent), gloves make striking more effective (at least in terms of damage dealt... large gloves have an effect on ability to hit as well that's not as beneficial).


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 2, 2021)

JerryL said:


> More damage to the skin? Yes. More damage to small, nigh-exposed bones (cheek bones, optical orbit, perhaps even rib)? Yes.
> More damage to the spine and brain? No. Gloves protect the small bones in the hand allowing a harder overall hit to be delivered safely ("safe" in this case being "safe for the hand") resulting in greater concussive force.
> 
> Moving from bare-knuckle to gloved boxing increased brain damage in boxers.


Cool.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 2, 2021)

JerryL said:


> I look forward to your career in professional boxing as you appear to be the only human on the planet unaffected by being punched when the striker is wearing a glove.
> 
> Wealth and fame await you. Go forth!


Yeah....it is awesome to be invincible.


----------



## Buka (Jun 2, 2021)

Interesting thread.

In Boxing gyms, not (boxercise gyms) people spar without the intention of knocking each other out, or trying to injure each other with body shots, to do so would be counter productive. Competitive Boxing, be it amateur or pro, as well as boxing training itself, is grueling and at times unforgiving.

A lot depends on the experience and talent of the boxers involved. You watch a newbie, part time boxer, it takes about three seconds to recognize him as such. There used to be an old expression used when watching rookies (who all of us here were at one time) The expression was -

“That boy couldn’t hit a wheat field with a hand full of locusts."

Keep you hands up, fellas.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 3, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> No, I am saying bare knuckles, will do more damage than padded.


For direct damage, yes. For knockout, probably not, since that’s more about momentum transfer.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 3, 2021)

It doesn't matter if say you have the advantage of bare knuckle or street techniques. If you don't have the skills to employ them. 






Fighters wearing gloves and following rules have enough in the tool box to finish people. Which is all you need to test a method.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Anyway. If I absolutely had to send a guy unconscious. I would choke them out.
> 
> It is more reliable.


I have had the opportunity to ridgehand my brother full force in the neck, when he was drunk.

He had just thrown a framing hammer at our other brother.

I knew if I didn't KO him, I probably would have gone to the hospital. 

He usually could beat my ***. (Actually he always had beat my ***. Damn boxing skills)

He had just turned around to look at me when I attacked. His guard was coming up when he dropped like a 50 lb sack of potatoes.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 4, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> For direct damage, yes. For knockout, probably not, since that’s more about momentum transfer.


I would disagree. But this is personal experience.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It doesn't matter if say you have the advantage of bare knuckle or street techniques. If you don't have the skills to employ them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obviously, as for rules...in a fight, non sport, you will not find me following any rules at all.

I hear a lot about rules in combat, they are simply a stupid thing to follow in a fight.

Every fight, is a fight for life.


----------



## Hanzou (Jun 4, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Obviously, as for rules...in a fight, non sport, you will not find me following any rules at all.
> 
> I hear a lot about rules in combat, they are simply a stupid thing to follow in a fight.
> 
> Every fight, is a fight for life.



The difference is that when you have rules that protect the safety of the combatants, you can increase the skill level and develop a more elite fighter, because you can perfect techniques with reduced threat of injury.

It’s like a kimura versus someone using biting to submit someone. The person who practiced the Kimura in a safe environment has a higher chance of pulling it off because they’ve been able to practice it under pressure over and over again.

You really can’t practice biting on that level, because you’d quickly run out of training partners, and students would develop physical and mental diseases from consuming so much blood and flesh. When the time comes to use it, you won’t be able to because you’ve never done it enough (if at all) to get good at it.

You really can’t get good at something you never really do.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 4, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Obviously, as for rules...in a fight, non sport, you will not find me following any rules at all.
> 
> I hear a lot about rules in combat, they are simply a stupid thing to follow in a fight.
> 
> Every fight, is a fight for life.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Obviously, as for rules...in a fight, non sport, you will not find me following any rules at all.
> 
> I hear a lot about rules in combat, they are simply a stupid thing to follow in a fight.
> 
> Every fight, is a fight for life.


Sport is the path. Combat is the goal. Without the path (sport), you can't reach to your goal (combat).

A: How many eye balls have you taken out so far?
B: None.
A: How many times have you use single leg to take down your opponent?
B: Over a 1,000 times.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 4, 2021)

All I can say is how often you see one punch knock out in UFC or Balletor? Almost never!!! It's always a series of punches and kicks. If anyone believe they can one punch and knock out the opponent, they must not be in real fight and just all talk. That's what I hate about all the so called masters, they said if you do this, I would do that........it's like all talking on paper.

This I talk with a lot of bitterness, I was from the days before UFC and grappling. I don't know anything about grappling. Remember UFC in the late 90s to early 2000s, time where still have strikers and grapplers. You can see the grappler literally willing to take the first punch and shoot the striker. They know once they get hold of the striker, it's done. Now a days, this doesn't work because nobody gets into the Octagon without knowing both. This means taking a punch and charge is no longer work.

All that means is, regarding to the tittle of this thread, I assume the OP is a striker that don't know grappling and jujitsu. So it's like going back to the late 90s of UFC.......facing the grappler, you prey on one punch knock out before the opponent shoot and tackle you down.  To answer this question, go back and watch the UFC fights in the late 90s and see how many succeeded in knocking the opponent out before being tackled. From my memory, DON'T BET ON IT.

Sure, your opponent is no UFC fighter, but are you a UFC fighter? MMA is amazing, it really shut a lot of people up. It evolve so fast nobody dominant for extend period of time. People improve by the day, Gracie got creamed by Matt Huges, who got knocked out within a few months. Chuck Ledel didn't stay up long. Look at Connor McGregor now. I know people hate what I am saying. I HATE what I said here too!!! But it's painfully true. That's why I practice cane fight. At least I have better chance, better reach, hit harder with a stick than punches.

If you are young enough, go learn MMA, learn take down defense. If you are too old like me, be bitter and learn stick fight. Forget the fantasy of one punch knock out.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sport is the path. Combat is the goal. Without the path (sport), you can't reach to your goal (combat).



Of course this is not true in any absolute way.  Sport is one path.  It is not THE path. There are others.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 4, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> All I can say is how often you see one punch knock out in UFC or Balletor? Almost never!!! It's always a series of punches and kicks. If anyone believe they can one punch and knock out the opponent, they must not be in real fight and just all talk. That's what I hate about all the so called masters, they said if you do this, I would do that........it's like all talking on paper.
> 
> This I talk with a lot of bitterness, I was from the days before UFC and grappling. I don't know anything about grappling. Remember UFC in the late 90s to early 2000s, time where still have strikers and grapplers. You can see the grappler literally willing to take the first punch and shoot the striker. They know once they get hold of the striker, it's done. Now a days, this doesn't work because nobody gets into the Octagon without knowing both. This means taking a punch and charge is no longer work.
> 
> ...


Actually, the OP practices a primarily grappling martial method.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 4, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Actually, the OP practices a primarily grappling martial method.


Then why even talk about one punch knock out? What is the chance of that?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Then why even talk about one punch knock out? What is the chance of that?


When you throw a punch, if your opponent

1. moves back, it's A - B < A (rear end collision).
2. stands still, it's A = A (car hits on a tree).
3. moves forward, it's A + B > A (head on collision).

1 < 2 < 3

In order to cause a head on collision, you need to *pull* your opponent into your punch.

How to make that happen is what we are discussing here. So far nobody has ever suggested "pulling" yet.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course this is not true in any absolute way.  Sport is one path.  It is not THE path. There are others.


What can be the other path?


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you throw a punch, if your opponent
> 
> 1. moves back, it's A - B < A (rear end collision).
> 2. stands still, it's A = A (car hits on a tree).
> ...


 That's talk fight on paper, for what? Like I said in very detail, watch UFC, how many times there is a one punch knock out. If those elite fighters can't do that, why are we amateurs wasting time talking about it.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Jun 4, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> That's talk fight on paper, for what? Like I said in very detail, watch UFC, how many times there is a one punch knock out. If those elite fighters can't do that, why are we amateurs wasting time talking about it.



Same with boxing.  Very rare.  Mike Tyson and George Foreman have done it, and that's the level you've got to be on.  I wonder how many people here believe that they are on that level.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 4, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Same with boxing.  Very rare.  Mike Tyson and George Foreman have done it, and that's the level you've got to be on.  I wonder how many people here believe that they are on that level.


If we are at that level, do we have time to BS here? I remember when I was in Tae Kwon Do, one of the black belt that was very very good in the class doing sparring and all, he went to a PKA match and did he got beat up and good. He said you can spar all you want, when you walk into the ring and go all out, it's a different world. I can attest how good he was in the class, it's a different world in the ring. Until people put their lives on the line, they don't know what they are talking. PKA is child's play compare to UFC, imagine that.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 4, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> That's talk fight on paper, for what? Like I said in very detail, watch UFC, how many times there is a one punch knock out. If those elite fighters can't do that, why are we amateurs wasting time talking about it.


There is a world of difference between a highly trained professional and untrained thugs. Two highly trained fighters are not usually going to one shot each other. However, there is a skill gap between a bum or punk... And a pro. 

There is a Russian who KOd a few guys with one hitter quiters. They didn't back off when they hurrassed his wife at a bar. You could say once is a fluke... But when it happens twice back to back.... In a street fight... What are you going to do? For one... You ain't going to mess with His wife.









						Boxer takes out gang of Russian thugs after they harassed his wife
					

Nicolai Vlasenko, a professional boxer and martial arts expert, was caught on CCTV knocking out three of the thugs outside a bar in Starokorsunskaya, south-west Russia.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 4, 2021)

TSDTexan said:


> There is a world of difference between a highly trained professional and untrained thugs.
> 
> There is a Russian who KOd a few guys with one hitter quiters. They didn't back off when they hurrassed his wife at a bar. You could say once is a fluke... But when it happens twice back to back.... In a street fight... What are you going to do? For one... You ain't going to mess with His wife.











TSDTexan said:


> Boxer takes out gang of Russian thugs after they harassed his wife
> 
> 
> Nicolai Vlasenko, a professional boxer and martial arts expert, was caught on CCTV knocking out three of the thugs outside a bar in Starokorsunskaya, south-west Russia.
> ...


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 4, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Same with boxing.  Very rare.  Mike Tyson and George Foreman have done it, and that's the level you've got to be on.  I wonder how many people here believe that they are on that level.


That's BS. A pro mma fighter (boxing was his base art) with a 1-1-0 record KOd two men back to back with just one hit each.

This one is on Russian CCTV, and is the best one that I could find of the video.

He is no where near Prime Tyson, or Foreman.
Word is they filed a lawsuit against the MMA fighter, and lost that too.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Absolutely. The best way to handle multiple opponents is just to knock everyone out with single punches.


Correct. But you have to be a crazy Russian to pull it of.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 5, 2021)

Are we still talking about one punch KO a grappler or KO a street thug? Word *grappler* implies the person is TRAINED, not any thug on the street. Grappler to me means someone at least *train* in places like Gracie Jujitsu or equivalent.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 5, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Are we still talking about one punch KO a grappler or KO a street thug? Word *grappler* implies the person is TRAINED, not any thug on the street. Grappler to me means someone at least *train* in places like Gracie Jujitsu or equivalent.


No. Look back at the OP question. That is the context. Kungfu Wang was asking "if you can train to KO with one hit, is training grappling even necessary, if your striking game is that strong?"

Shouldn't all ones efforts go towards trying to reach a very high bar.

A lot of people were scoffing at his question.
Kungfu Wang never said whether this was for compative sports or for street self defense. Or if you were trying to one punch KO a trained grappler or trained striker... I was merely point out that with enough training some people can KO with one hit.

But if I was having to put out a one hit knock out I would rather strike a wrestler or grappler instead of a boxer. The odds of hitting the former are far better than hitting the latter.

It would be good if Kungfu Wang clarified who was being KO'd. Is it a self defense setting or in a cage fight, with a well trained consensual opponent?


----------



## JerryL (Jun 5, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> All I can say is how often you see one punch knock out in UFC or Balletor?


Enough that someone made a "top 35" list The 35 Most Brutal One-Punch Knockouts

I believe the shortest UFC match was ~5 seconds ending in knockout. 

If your point is "relying on getting a one-hit knockout is foolish", I agree. If your point is that they are extremely rare, I think that's overstating. 



Alan0354 said:


> All that means is, regarding to the tittle of this thread, I assume the OP is a striker that don't know grappling and jujitsu. So it's like going back to the late 90s of UFC.......facing the grappler, you prey on one punch knock out before the opponent shoot and tackle you down.  To answer this question, go back and watch the UFC fights in the late 90s and see how many succeeded in knocking the opponent out before being tackled. From my memory, DON'T BET ON IT.


I have a feeling that if we created a new sport where we added knives for everyone we'd see something similar. 

Heck, if we just changed the existing floor to stone it would have an adverse effect on many popular techniques. I remember a reality show from a time back that had a bunch of MMA guys in the same house. A fight broke out. One went for the... is it a "standing arm bar"? The one where you grab the wrist with your ands and pull it across your chest, but with a standing opponent meaning you are putting your head on the floor)... his opponent simply pulled him up and slammed his head on the concrete before he could get the bar. 

The technique was good, but the conditions were different and it was the wrong choice. 

I recall a street fight that made it to camera with to South American MMA champs fighting some locals. One of the locals had a stick. He swung the stick at the MMA guy. The correct approach would have been to move in, but he didn't. I have to presume because his training is against unarmed people and backing up from a punch is appropriate. With this, it just left him in range to get swung at again, and he was, and he was struck in the head and lost. 

UFC and other limited rules competitions absolutely exposed flaws in training methodology as well as fantasy approaches to combat; but the fact that people who trained with a specific set of rules succeeded better under those rules than those who trained with a different set is, well, a no brainer. 

I suspect you and I agree more than we disagree here; but I do think your position is overly absolute.


----------



## JerryL (Jun 5, 2021)

TSDTexan said:


> No. Look back at the OP question. That is the context. Kungfu Wang was asking "if you can train to KO with one hit, is training grappling even necessary, if your striking game is that strong?"


Let's rephrase the question. 

Are you the most capable combatant you can be if your entire arsenal is that you are good at one-hit knockouts? Or are you a more capable combatant with a more rounded skillset? 

I assert the latter based on three issues. 

The conditions of the fight are unknown (if the fight starts with you grabbed from behind, what now?)
The law of diminishing returns. Your percentage chance of success will slow its climb towards 100%.
You have only one shot. If you miss one attack (the first one), you lose the fight. Given a resisting opponent, even one not as skilled, the chances of failing to connect perfectly are high. 
But by all means: Kunfu Wang is welcome to go take on MMA fighters and prove that his approach works.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What can be the other path?


Um, all kinds of things that don’t involve getting into a ring.  Nobody needs to compete, if that isn’t your interest.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Jun 5, 2021)

TSDTexan said:


> That's BS. A pro mma fighter (boxing was his base art) with a 1-1-0 record KOd two men back to back with just one hit each.
> 
> This one is on Russian CCTV, and is the best one that I could find of the video.
> 
> ...



Did some Googling, and it appears many people are under the impression that the guys who got knocked out were drunk.  I don't think I can accept this video as proof of anything.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 5, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> I would disagree. But this is personal experience.


What is the thought process behind claiming there's more KO power in a bare-knuckle punch?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 5, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course this is not true in any absolute way.  Sport is one path.  It is not THE path. There are others.


And for some folks who include sport, it's still not the path, but a part of the path.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 5, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Um, all kinds of things that don’t involve getting into a ring.  Nobody needs to compete, if that isn’t your interest.


What are those things? Could you explain in more detail?

You don't have to

- spar in the ring. You can spar outside the ring.
- wrestle on the mat. You can wrestle outdoor.

Also will you take a 

- class without midterm and final exams?
- test and don't care about your score?


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 5, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Did some Googling, and it appears many people are under the impression that the guys who got knocked out were drunk.  I don't think I can accept this video as proof of anything.


There is a whole system of martial arts that employ drinking. And relaxation of gross muscle tone and the neck and spine help give them more staying power in a fight.

 None of them (the KO dudes) were staggering when they came out.

And these are Russians for crying out loud. They are a drinking culture. 

Please provide me with who these ”many people" are.

Rejecting video testimony based on unsubstantiated hearsay is an illogical move. The hearsay is not under oath, and may be a damage control move of the gang.

 "Hey Ivan... This fight it makes us look bad. It is hurting our reputation"
"OK Boris, get the word out from a bunch of people that they were too drunk to fight"


----------



## jobo (Jun 5, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Did some Googling, and it appears many people are under the impression that the guys who got knocked out were drunk.  I don't think I can accept this video as proof of anything.


there is an extremly high chance that any fight with in or in the vicinity off a bar involves at least one drunk and that these also make up the vast majority of fights as suddenly people think they can fight

being able to knock drunks out is an incredibly useful skill , being able to knock multiple drunks out even more so, as they always seems to have mates


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 5, 2021)

JerryL said:


> Enough that someone made a "top 35" list The 35 Most Brutal One-Punch Knockouts
> 
> I believe the shortest UFC match was ~5 seconds ending in knockout.
> 
> ...



I agree, real fight is not like any cage fight with rules and the stage is ideal with no stuffs on the floor and padded stage. Any rules will deviate from reality. But UFC comes the closest.

I am not talking about UFC today, it's the early 90s to the late 90s where there are only rules against biting, eyes gauging and fish hook. People can hit the back of the head, between the legs and all. That's when you see what works and what not.  Later, UFC added a lot more rules that give advantage to the grapplers.

You are right about the stick, that's the reason I put in a lot of effort in stick training with a walking cane as I am 68, it doen't look suspicious for me to carry a cane. That's the biggest equalizer for people like me that don't know grappling and take down defense.

I really wish they come up with a USC ( ultimate stick champion) since I am learn stick fight. I don't want to learn any fancy unnecessary moves, only concentrate on stuffs that works. In MA, there are too many fancy moves that is a total waste of time and useless. You ever watch Xu Zhiaodong challenge all the Kung Fu in China. Go look on youtube. Did he beat those masters up and good. It's to the point someone offer like $20K to anyone that can beat him and he is censored by Chinese government. Before I go any further, I want to specify I am a Chinese and I learn Wing Chung for a short while. I particularly hate people "talk" kung fu. Have the guts, go into the octagon. Not ideal, but still the closest. I wish they bring back the old UFC from the 90s.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 5, 2021)

TSDTexan said:


> No. Look back at the OP question. That is the context. Kungfu Wang was asking "if you can train to KO with one hit, is training grappling even necessary, if your striking game is that strong?"
> 
> Shouldn't all ones efforts go towards trying to reach a very high bar.
> 
> ...



I just read back the first post:


Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can knock your opponent out with one punch, you don't need to train any grappling art. What can be more important than this in your MA training?
> 
> Your thought?


To me, this mean you don't have to learn grappling and take down defense if you can KO with one punch.

Look back in the first few UFC fights in the 90s with almost no rules, there were boxers went into the octagon, did they get creamed.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 5, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I just read back the first post:
> 
> To me, this mean you don't have to learn grappling and take down defense if you can KO with one punch.
> 
> Look back in the first few UFC fights in the 90s with almost no rules, there were boxers went into the octagon, did they get creamed.


Tell me though. A prime Tyson, George Foreman or Earnie Shavers... You think a small wrestler is going to successful shoot them. I would bet big money on those three.

One thing that people miss out on about UFC is they cherry picked the strikers and heavily weighed the deck in favor of the grapplers.

The earliest UFC was really just a very cleverly designed marketing campaign for Gracie branded Brazilian Juijitsu.

Take that from the mouth of Bill "Superfoot" Wallace who was hired to provide fight commentary for these fights.

So, that being a given. That the very best of strikers were kept out, I wouldn't call it fair or objective. They were picked knowing that they would be able to cream the boxers.


----------



## JerryL (Jun 5, 2021)

TSDTexan said:


> Tell me though. A prime Tyson, George Foreman or Earnie Shavers... You think a small wrestler is going to successful shoot them. I would bet big money on those three.


A couple of points. 

I don't think what the UFC really did was show that striking arts were a problem. I know that's what many even in the UFC tried to say. I've had arguments directly with a Gracie when his argument got stupid (it was over multiple attackers); but what it really showed was that many people were not engaged in the sort of training that would result in winning fights. 

You've picked the best boxers in the world... so put them up against similarly sized best wrestlers in the world. When we put anyone up against a 5-year-old, the 5-year-old loses, not because of approach, but because of physical disadvantage. 

And wrestlers are a great example of my point... they actually fared poorly in the beginning because of their lack of experience with striking, but the adaption was quick because their training methods were already good, they just needed to modify the rules.


----------



## JerryL (Jun 5, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am not talking about UFC today, it's the early 90s to the late 90s where there are only rules against biting, eyes gauging and fish hook. People can hit the back of the head, between the legs and all. That's when you see what works and what not.  Later, UFC added a lot more rules that give advantage to the grapplers.


Much of how we got from there to here is someone came in, did something (say: shoving their hand down their opponent's pants) and the something was effective and they won; and then it was outlawed because they didn't want fights to go that way.

And honestly: there are still unwritten rules. Boxing ears can be extremely effective (not always, but what always is?) Ignoring the pain, the damage to the inner ear can cause short term dizziness, blurred vision, and even unconsciousness. It can also permanently deafen someone; yet, to my knowledge, even when not expressly forbidden, no one has ever tried it in the octagon. It's not like they are giving up something to do so... it's still a punch to the head even if the boxing doesn't have effect.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 5, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I agree, real fight is not like any cage fight with rules and the stage is ideal with no stuffs on the floor and padded stage. Any rules will deviate from reality. But UFC comes the closest.
> 
> I am not talking about UFC today, it's the early 90s to the late 90s where there are only rules against biting, eyes gauging and fish hook. People can hit the back of the head, between the legs and all. That's when you see what works and what not.  Later, UFC added a lot more rules that give advantage to the grapplers.
> 
> ...



Look up dog brothers.

And.

The rule set did not make those Chinese masters loose. Not being able to fight decided that.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 5, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> All I can say is how often you see one punch knock out in UFC or Balletor? Almost never!!! It's always a series of punches and kicks. If anyone believe they can one punch and knock out the opponent, they must not be in real fight and just all talk. That's what I hate about all the so called masters, they said if you do this, I would do that........it's like all talking on paper.
> 
> This I talk with a lot of bitterness, I was from the days before UFC and grappling. I don't know anything about grappling. Remember UFC in the late 90s to early 2000s, time where still have strikers and grapplers. You can see the grappler literally willing to take the first punch and shoot the striker. They know once they get hold of the striker, it's done. Now a days, this doesn't work because nobody gets into the Octagon without knowing both. This means taking a punch and charge is no longer work.
> 
> ...


Literally hundreds of one punch knockouts on YouTube.
MMA-the idea is nothing new...not really sure why folks believe others were not cross training before the advent of UFC.

This is why it was a style against style promotion.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 5, 2021)

Lol...yes I agree, but you should have stated the average sport martial artist...not the average male.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 5, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sport is the path. Combat is the goal. Without the path (sport), you can't reach to your goal (combat).
> 
> A: How many eye balls have you taken out so far?
> B: None.
> ...


I would disagree, there have always been two paths...only one is wrapped in the blanket of safety.


----------



## jobo (Jun 5, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> I would disagree, there have always been two paths...only one is wrapped in the blanket of safety.


there are many paths grasshopper


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 5, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> The difference is that when you have rules that protect the safety of the combatants, you can increase the skill level and develop a more elite fighter, because you can perfect techniques with reduced threat of injury.
> 
> It’s like a kimura versus someone using biting to submit someone. The person who practiced the Kimura in a safe environment has a higher chance of pulling it off because they’ve been able to practice it under pressure over and over again.
> 
> ...


No no you can't. You simply teach and promote false confidence.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 5, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> I would disagree, there have always been two paths...only one is wrapped in the blanket of safety.


What's the other path?


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 5, 2021)

jobo said:


> there are many paths grasshopper


Two...you test it in sport, or reality.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 5, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Two...you test it in sport, or reality.


To test in reality can cause too much legal issue.


----------



## jobo (Jun 5, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Two...you test it in sport, or reality.


do i take it your position is that sport isnt part of our reality, that's very profound grass hopper, is it a wormhole to another dimension do you think


----------



## Urban Trekker (Jun 5, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Literally hundreds of one punch knockouts on YouTube.



Yes, and either alcohol is involved or the guy getting knocked out is significantly smaller than the guy knocking him out.


----------



## Hanzou (Jun 5, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> No no you can't. You simply teach and promote false confidence.



How is it false confidence? I never said you could ALWAYS pull it off on someone, but a BJJ blue belt who can consistently nail their fat, muscular, skinny, short, tall, aggressive, sneaky, gi, or nogi classmates with a Kimura setup has a very good chance of being able to pull it off on someone who is untrained.

The biter? Not so much.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 5, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> How is it false confidence? I never said you could ALWAYS pull it off on someone, but a BJJ blue belt who can consistently nail their fat, muscular, skinny, short, tall, aggressive, sneaky, gi, or nogi classmates with a Kimura setup has a very good chance of being able to pull it off on someone who is untrained.
> 
> The biter? Not so much.


I read it as him agreeing with your two "you can't" statements.


----------



## jobo (Jun 5, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Yes, and either alcohol is involved or the guy getting knocked out is significantly smaller than the guy knocking him out.


how are you measuring alcohol consumption from a vid

and yes a high chance that one or bot6h have been drinking as that most fights


----------



## Urban Trekker (Jun 5, 2021)

jobo said:


> how are you measuring alcohol consumption from a vid
> 
> and yes a high chance that one or bot6h have been drinking as that most fights



I'm fairly certain I know a drunk person when I see one.  Even if they have some other condition that causes them to stumble around, a one punch knockout shouldn't be a surprise.

Of course, there are YouTube videos where they have the beverages in their hands.  Like this one:


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What are those things? Could you explain in more detail?
> 
> You don't have to
> 
> ...


Any of a number of partner application drills, which can include types of sparring. 

I get it that you enjoy the competition.  You practice a method that has that as a heavy focus.  It makes sense, and if you enjoy it, do it.

but don’t make the tired old mistake of deciding that you have THE answer figured out and therefore everyone must train how you train. Life doesn’t work that way.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 5, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> I would disagree, there have always been two paths...only one is wrapped in the blanket of safety.



And the other is a combat sport.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Look up dog brothers.
> 
> And.
> 
> The rule set did not make those Chinese masters loose. *Not being able to fight decided that.*


Most of them are out of shape, they think they can do it, but they really can't. Also, being in Hong Kong for the first 20 years of my life, I'd seen my share of those so called masters. All talk, every single one of them. All follow straightly the original form created from hundreds of years ago, they never stop and think and improve. Xu Zhiaodong really proofed that.

I remember when Bruce Lee came back to Hong Kong, he stirred up a big scene because he created his own style by combining the best of a few........Wing Chung fist punching, boxing hands and footwork, Tae Kwon Do kicks. So many people challenged him and did they got beat up. Bruce Lee really changed martial arts......until UFC. I picked a Tae Kwon Do school that threw all the traditional forms away and follow the Bruce Lee style, at the time, that was one of the very few schools that do that and we did a lot of sparring.

I don't want to say anything bad about other kung fu styles as I have not learn them, but I did learn Wing Chung. You seriously think it's practical to use "sticky hands"? Most of the movement is useless, the ONLY two thing that I actually practice a lot even today is the Wing Chung punch. The punch that involves pivoting the wrist at the last moment to add the force of the punch. It's hard to practice, takes a while to master this. The other one is the low kick that literally step on the knee of the opponent.


----------



## JerryL (Jun 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You seriously think it's practical to use "sticky hands"?


I'm gonna go with "yes" having practically applied skills from that. Ironically, I don't think there's a lot of application to boxing; but for the sorts of upright grappling that tend to be the beginning of a fight? Yes. 

Kind of like how there's a practical use to a speed bag.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 7, 2021)

JerryL said:


> I'm gonna go with "yes" having practically applied skills from that. Ironically, I don't think there's a lot of application to boxing; but for the sorts of upright grappling that tend to be the beginning of a fight? Yes.
> 
> Kind of like how there's a practical use to a speed bag.


I don't see usefulness of sticky hands of Wing Chung being practical fighting with someone that move around with good footwork.( which a lot of other styles have particular MMA and boxing).

There was a wing chung fighter in UFC2 against a grappler, it did not end well fast. Grappler shoot at or below the waste of the opponent, sticky hands are useless. More importantly, Wing Chung very much based on standing in one position. You charge the wing chung, it's easy to knock them off balance. I only learn a little while on wing chung and not an expert, but I don't know of any real footwork from wing chung.

wing chung is not all bad, I practice their punch and stepping kick on the knee. The punch is very good using the knuckle of the baby finger and the wrist motion to literally nutch the baby knuckle to hit. That generate the max power. I spent a lot of time practicing it, it's not easy to get, but it's very good. I just pick only  the technique that is good to practice.


Please note I keep talking about Wing Chung is *ONLY BECAUSE *I learn it before, I don't want to say about others because I don't know enough. I am not singling out Wing Chung.


----------



## Hanshi (Jun 8, 2021)

I have very little knowledge regarding kung fu.  The only kung fu I trained in was southern style Eagle Claw and that was many years ago.  But not all that many years ago I was quite capable of one punch knockouts, I had the speed and the power.  But now being crippled up from rheumatoid arthritis I can't make a proper fist.  But I can still do a number of other _dirty_ things.  But a one punch knockout in the real world is still a crap shoot.  Rather than a one punch knockout I'd prefer a dozen punch knockout.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 8, 2021)

Hanshi said:


> I have very little knowledge regarding kung fu.  The only kung fu I trained in was southern style Eagle Claw and that was many years ago.  But not all that many years ago I was quite capable of one punch knockouts, I had the speed and the power.  But now being crippled up from rheumatoid arthritis I can't make a proper fist.  But I can still do a number of other _dirty_ things.  But a one punch knockout in the real world is still a crap shoot.  Rather than a one punch knockout I'd prefer a dozen punch knockout.


Agree.

I feel you, injury adds up, you can keep practicing and get very good when young, but those repetitive motion practice( be it punching or kicking) wear on your body and you get arthritis when getting old. I am with you. I am doing moderate exercise, don't make it too long and too hard, but I am doing in almost everyday. Just persistence.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 8, 2021)

Hanshi said:


> But now being crippled up from rheumatoid arthritis I can't make a proper fist.


This is why I believe the palm strike is important. Even if one may have difficult to hold a fist during old age, a palm edge strike can still finish a fight.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I believe the palm strike is important. Even if one may have difficult to hold a fist during old age, a palm edge strike can still finish a fight.
> 
> View attachment 26889


Good point, also Ridge hand of Tae kwon Do.





I practice a lot on this Ridge hand. Very much like hook punch, just with open hand as shown. After a while, I can hit quite hard when add the feet and hip and shoulder into it.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 21, 2021)

drop bear said:


> And the other is a combat sport.


Wrapped in safety...there is a ref there to stop it...the ref is the safety net.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 21, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> How is it false confidence? I never said you could ALWAYS pull it off on someone, but a BJJ blue belt who can consistently nail their fat, muscular, skinny, short, tall, aggressive, sneaky, gi, or nogi classmates with a Kimura setup has a very good chance of being able to pull it off on someone who is untrained.
> 
> The biter? Not so much.


This can be said about any art, against an untrained fighter.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 21, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Yes, and either alcohol is involved or the guy getting knocked out is significantly smaller than the guy knocking him out.


Yeah...thanks for agreeing.


----------



## Graywalker (Jun 21, 2021)

jobo said:


> do i take it your position is that sport isnt part of our reality, that's very profound grass hopper, is it a wormhole to another dimension do you think


For entertainment young Padawan, not reality...this is the real world we live in, not fantasy...you know like  sport arts


----------



## Hanzou (Jun 21, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> This can be said about any art, against an untrained fighter.



I disagree. In karate for example you’re simply not going full blast with bigger and stronger people on a consistent basis. You’re also heavily dividing your training time with kata and (frankly) archaic techniques like the reverse punch and the various “blocks”.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 22, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Wrapped in safety...there is a ref there to stop it...the ref is the safety net.



Less of a saftey net than beating up someone who can't fight and doesn't want to be there.


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## Graywalker (Jun 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I disagree. In karate for example you’re simply not going full blast with bigger and stronger people on a consistent basis. You’re also heavily dividing your training time with kata and (frankly) archaic techniques like the reverse punch and the various “blocks”.


Oh I see, back to putting down Karate. We get it, you sucked at Karate.

But by all means, keep dogging on Karate...I mean it is the only art Martial Talk allows people to bash on, so have at it.


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## Diagen (Jul 6, 2021)

*Y*es it is true that if you can knock someone out the fight is over. I suggest excessive handstands and rotating your hands outward and inward while in a handstand hold (against a wall is fine starting out). This develops the hands and arms so that you can deliver power. Wrist curls and extensions and rolling them while in a plank or whatever body weight will develop your hands and wrists so that you can deliver extreme force. Some hardening is necessary so strike a tree lightly but constantly until you can hit it very hard without damage to your hand. At this point you can strike any hard part of a person and it will hurt them more than you. You should practice your punch of course, you need great technique. 
*Y*ou want power from the feet in the hands so try to figure that out, but basically it's like when a bicycle hits something -- you fly over the handlebars. Thus, you want to step forward and twist your shoulder that's behind you forward (look up videos of punching or the cross punch). Karate master talked about the gut being loose but solid and strong, but the point is that the forces move through your gut from your lower body so you want to get that punch power through your body without any power "bleeding" or power loss. For this you need very solid and strong torque or twisting strength and speed but midline strength is probably most important. If your body isn't a pillar taht can support weight and maintain strict form then it's just going to fall apart. Practicing the punch itself is of course necessary to feel out what muscles to use and start developing them and their coordination.
*O*ne arm push ups are very good due to their similarity to the punch in terms of muscles used, and the asymmetry of it is perfect. As well you should punch the ground in a plank position when your wrists and hands have developed. The point is to develop strength power and solidity so lay down a rug or something, no need to hit something hard. The integrity of your punch and fist to shoulder will be called into question with this exercise, and that is good. Once you can punch in this form like you run or jump rope or run in place (very little ground contact time, can maintain elevation and push off the ground even for a jump using the fists or a single fist, great power) then you can knock pretty much anyone out no matter where you hit them.
* A*ll in all I think 2 years is enough time to become a knockout king if you have some rudimentary athleticism. It's important to focus on how solid and structurally strong your body, bones, joints, muscles, tendons are. Handstands and wrist exercises first, then tree striking and striking the air to develop technique and form specific muscles (high high repetitions and vigor) and of course center of balance, then one arm push ups, one arm push up jump switches (from 1 arm to the other), and striking the ground while in plank (supporting one's weight on their fists and graduating to "jogging in place" with fists).

To whomever is reading: Let me know if you can "jog in place" in plank with fists. A video would be cool.


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## Diagen (Jul 6, 2021)

Hanshi said:


> I have very little knowledge regarding kung fu.  The only kung fu I trained in was southern style Eagle Claw and that was many years ago.  But not all that many years ago I was quite capable of one punch knockouts, I had the speed and the power.  But now being crippled up from rheumatoid arthritis I can't make a proper fist.  But I can still do a number of other _dirty_ things.  But a one punch knockout in the real world is still a crap shoot.  Rather than a one punch knockout I'd prefer a dozen punch knockout.


You need to train your body with progressions in frequency and relative intensity, and for over-all athleticism if you want your hands to heal. I suggest "knees over toes guy"'s stuff since you seem to have that arthritic inclination and the "animal movement" guy's stuff. Once your hands are warmed up they're not bad right? That's why you should workout your hands and forearms all the time and in different ways, at low to mid intensity most of the time. Or just be a cripple. Doing less is more damaging.


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