# How do kung fu teachers in China teach?



## kal (Jul 4, 2008)

Do they have classes where everyone works together and where the teacher is active and highly involved in the lesson?

Or are they more casual, with students being left to work individually on whatever they want with the teacher coming around to look? (More of a supervised practice session than a formal lesson)?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 4, 2008)

It depends on the sifu.

It depends on who is being taught.

It depends on the style.

It depends on a lot of things.

Some teach in the park to whoever shows up, some teach in the park to only their admitted students. Some teach in their home, some teach in a school, some do all of the above. Some are strict, some are not, some are openly teaching others are not and some are not teaching at all. 

And in China you will also find Muay Thai schools, BJJ schools, Kendo schools and just about any other style you want.


----------



## ggg214 (Jul 14, 2008)

in chinese word, it's said once he becomes your sifu, in whole life you should respect him as your father. 
from this, you can figure out what the relationship is between sifu and its student.
therefore, it's hard imagine students in a public class are all accepted as son of the teacher.


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 15, 2008)

Our Sigung teaches in his home in Hong Kong i think they train everyday from 5pm to 11pm. If you train there you start off doing Sil lum tao form and not much else , then when he thinks you are ready you learn single chi sao , then double chi sau .

 It is very informal from what i hear i mean people go out do their shopping or whatever and come back in and keep training. But his most serious students would probably be averageing 6 hours of chi sau everynight .

Not many westerners can stand this type of training , but he does 
produce students with unbelievable power . He has said that when he first started with Yip Man lessons did not get interesting till after the first year because all they did was the sil lum tao form , its a far cry from some people today who expect to get taught the wooden dummy form after three months. 

Also his teaching method is very hands on he will correct your posture and positioning by physically putting your arms in the right position and indicating which muscles have to be relaxed etc.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 15, 2008)

In Beijing many see their Sifu 5 to 7 times a week and the length of time training per day with your Sifu varies as do the locations depending on the Sifu. Heck there is a Kendo school there that is open 7 days a week. 

But you had best train a lot or you may be kicked out. But again this depends on the Sifu. Many Sifus in Beijing today have caught onto the westerner cash cow and for them it is considerably easier, teach less charge more. 

I have heard however that some of the more serious sifus have taken there schools to less public places to avoid the non-serious onlooker. Also there are other sifus that will train a westerner as hard as a Beijingren but they will charge you more.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 15, 2008)

You might look at the book "Iron and Silk" by Mark Salzman for one particular story along these lines.


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Jul 23, 2008)

Depends on the Sifu.  A lot of times you will spend the first 6 months or even the first year going over nothing but maybe horse stance and maybe one strike before ever learning anything else.  This is to test you and see how dedicated you are and to see if you are of good charactor etc....etc....  Once the teacher determines that you are worthy to teach then you will learn a lot more.  Now weather its learning in a group or privately, thats up to the teacher and your relationship with him.


----------



## TenTigers (Sep 21, 2008)

My Sifu is from Guangzhao. But he lives in NYC Chinatown. He only knows two words in English-"Good," and "Again!"

-and I'm gonna kill the sumbich who taught him,"Again!"


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 22, 2008)

TenTigers said:


> My Sifu is from Guangzhao. But he lives in NYC Chinatown. He only knows two words in English-"Good," and "Again!"
> 
> -and I'm gonna kill the sumbich who taught him,"Again!"


 
My first sifu was from Qufu and he knew "one more time" and after hearing that 10 to 30 times I would have to say I too wanted to kill the sumbich who taught him, "one more time"


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Sep 22, 2008)

TenTigers said:


> My Sifu is from Guangzhao. But he lives in NYC Chinatown. He only knows two words in English-"Good," and "Again!"
> 
> -and I'm gonna kill the sumbich who taught him,"Again!"


 
Thats funny.  One of my sifu would try to say "just do it" but it would sound like he was saying "jus doeeeet".


----------



## East Winds (Sep 22, 2008)

ggg214

_*"in chinese word, it's said once he becomes your sifu, in whole life you should respect him as your father".  *_

So true. But we don't do that in the west, do we?? That is the way I am taught to respect my teacher. That is also why I do not train any other systems except those attached to Traditional Yang Taiji. Many thanks for that post.

Very bets wishes


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Sep 22, 2008)

East Winds said:


> ggg214
> 
> _*"in chinese word, it's said once he becomes your sifu, in whole life you should respect him as your father". *_
> 
> ...


 
I have always said that my sifu is like my second dad. We have that student teacher relationship while in class but outside of class he is more than just a kung fu teacher to me.  He helps me with any problem i might have, he gives me advice, we go eat chinese food together, we'll go out and get a drink sometimes, etc.... I respect my teacher to the fullest though.  I think thats how it should be.  He's been my sifu for close to 20 years.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 22, 2008)

East Winds said:


> ggg214
> 
> _*"in chinese word, it's said once he becomes your sifu, in whole life you should respect him as your father". *_
> 
> ...


 
And ggg214 is not in the west either, he is in China. 

I'm going to regret this and that means that I should hit the back button and not post at all but hell it's Monday and those are never good so here goes

I have great respect for my Yang Taijiquan sifu and he knew I trained Xingyiquan and I do not feel he thought I was showing any disrespect to him by doing so. I also do not feel that I am showing him any disrespect either. 

And Tung Ying Chieh had 2 sifus that he appears to have had great respect for and both his teachers seem to have been rather happy with him as well Li Hsiang Yuan and Yang Chengfu. 

Sun Lutang had multiple teachers as well as did many of the Xingyi/Bagua people of old. And there are many more as well. And there are also those that trained with one sifu and after that sifu died took a hell of a lot of credit for things that he shouldn&#8217;t have and that is, IMO, showing great disrespect. At least one rather well known student of Yang Chengfu is guilty of this. 

I honestly do not think that the fact one trains greater than one style is showing any disrespect for a teacher at all. If you are honest and up front with what you are doing and listening to what he/she tells you where is the disrespect?


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Sep 22, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> And ggg214 is not in the west either, he is in China.
> I'm going to regret this and that means that I should hit the back button and not post at all but hell it's Monday and those are never good so here goes
> I have great respect for my Yang Taijiquan sifu and he knew I trained Xingyiquan and I do not feel he thought I was showing any disrespect to him by doing so. I also do not feel that I am showing him any disrespect either.
> And Tung Ying Chieh had 2 sifus that he appears to have had great respect for and both his teachers seem to have been rather happy with him as well Li Hsiang Yuan and Yang Chengfu.
> ...


 
My teacher really didn't mind me studying other systems of m.a.  When I went away to college I started studying other systems.  I told my sifu back home that it was the only way to keep practicing what I already new and to stay in shape.  He was fine with that but made me promise not to forget my roots were in CMA.


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 22, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Depends on the Sifu. A lot of times you will spend the first 6 months or even the first year going over nothing but maybe horse stance and maybe one strike before ever learning anything else. This is to test you and see how dedicated you are and to see if you are of good charactor etc....etc.... Once the teacher determines that you are worthy to teach then you will learn a lot more. Now weather its learning in a group or privately, thats up to the teacher and your relationship with him.


 

Is that how your first year of training was in China?


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Sep 22, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> Is that how your first year of training was in China?


 

That's how my first year was pretty much when I studied HERE in the USA.  But it was under a Chinese man who escaped from mainland China back in the late 60's (i think) and made it here to the good ole' USA.  Him and 12 others escaped and only 7 made it.


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 23, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> That's how my first year was pretty much when I studied HERE in the USA. But it was under a Chinese man who escaped from mainland China back in the late 60's (i think) and made it here to the good ole' USA. Him and 12 others escaped and only 7 made it.


 

Then when did you train in China?


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Sep 23, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> Then when did you train in China?


 

Same time you did I guess.  

WTF do you mean when did I train in China?  I didn't.  I never said I did.


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 23, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Same time you did I guess. .


 
1994~95?



JadeDragon3 said:


> WTF do you mean when did I train in China? I didn't. I never said I did.


 
Oh, you didn't? Ok. Your previous comments sure made it seem as if you had, or that you were trying to give that impression.

I see now.


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Sep 23, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> 1994~95?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
No I don't think you do see.  I never implied any such thing.  I was ALWAYS upfront.  I stated that my Sifu had trained and lived there for about 7 years or so and that he took some other students there and I had the oppertunity to go but chose to go to Italy with my parents instead.  I NEVER implied I trained in China.  Thats just your overactive imagination at work trying to figure a way to discredit me.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 23, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> 1994~95?



If I may ask where in China did you trian and what did you train?


----------



## tshadowchaser (Sep 23, 2008)

Ladies and Gentlemen posting in this thread  
The thread has not got out of hand yet but PLEASE keep the conversation friendly.  It is a good thread and interesting please continue with your experiences and knowledge of the subject


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 23, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> If I may ask where in China did you trian and what did you train?


 

Trained in Xi'an, taijiquan and a northern longfist.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 23, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> Trained in Xi'an, taijiquan and a northern longfist.


 
Was this at Shaolin or am I confusing this with something else in Xian?


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 23, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Was this at Shaolin or am I confusing this with something else in Xian?


 


Xi'an is kinda far from Shaolin.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 23, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> Xi'an is kinda far from Shaolin.


 
Actually, I know, Xian is the capital of Shaanxi province as well as the ancient capital of China for the Zhou, Qin, Han, the Sui, and Tang dynasties as well as where Qin Shi Wang Dis tomb is and where the terracotta warriors are.

I have never been to Xian but will be going there one of these days. 

What style of Taiji?


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 24, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually, I know, Xian is the capital of Shaanxi province as well as the ancient capital of China for the Zhou, Qin, Han, the Sui, and Tang dynasties as well as where Qin Shi Wang Dis tomb is and where the terracotta warriors are.
> 
> I have never been to Xian but will be going there one of these days.
> 
> What style of Taiji?


 

Chen. Was fortunate enough to train with Chen QuanZhong.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 24, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> Chen. Was fortunate enough to train with Chen QuanZhong.


 
Cool, thanks


----------



## clfsean (Sep 24, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> Trained in Xi'an, taijiquan and a northern longfist.



Did you ever get over to Zhao Chang jun's school?


----------



## East Winds (Sep 24, 2008)

Xue Sheng,

_*"I**f you are honest and up front with what you are doing and listening to what he/she tells you where is the disrespect?*_"

Its a mind set thing. If you don't understand it, then there is nothing I can say which will convince you.

Very best wishes


----------



## oxy (Sep 24, 2008)

East Winds said:


> Its a mind set thing. If you don't understand it, then there is nothing I can say which will convince you.



If the teacher does not feel disrespected, then that's all that matters, isn't it?


----------



## JadeDragon3 (Sep 24, 2008)

oxy said:


> If the teacher does not feel disrespected, then that's all that matters, isn't it?


 
Thats a good point. I agree. Now if the teacher feels disrespected then thats a different story.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 24, 2008)

East Winds said:


> Xue Sheng,
> 
> _*"I**f you are honest and up front with what you are doing and listening to what he/she tells you where is the disrespect?*_"
> 
> ...


 
Arrogance and condescension&#8230; cute.

So then I can assume that Tung Ying Chieh, Sun Lutang (to name only two of the many) were disrespectful in your eyes then. But be careful how you answer that because the founder of Yang style Yang Luchan had more than one Sifu and trained more than one style too.


----------



## geezer (Sep 24, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Arrogance and condescension cute.
> 
> So then I can assume that Tung Ying Chieh, Sun Lutang (to name only two of the many) were disrespectful in your eyes then. But be careful how you answer that because the founder of Yang style Yang Luchan had more than one Sifu and trained more than one style too.


 
So it is a mindset thing... an _individual_ mindset, not a cultural one. Some Si-Fus expect total and exclusive loyalty. Now if your Sifu is truly all-knowing, maybe that is justified. And maybe it is disrespectful for a_ child_ to question his elders even with "respect". But _an adult_ should have open eyes, be willing to ask tough questions, and seek knowledge broadly. I understand the other point of view. I simply don't accept it! 

Oh, and thanks for the history lesson Xue. It helps give some perspective.


----------



## East Winds (Sep 24, 2008)

No its not condescension or arrogance and yes, I too have studied with other sifu's and with other systems. However that does not make me a Yang Lu Chan or any other of the Masters you mentioned. And Xue Sheng, you of all people would have I thought, understood the Chinese psyche. Your Sifu will NEVER tell you he is unhappy. The Sifu who DEMANDS respect will however make you very aware of their feelings!!! There is a subtle difference. I understand where you guys are coming from. It is the western attitude of - "I've paid me money now deliver the goods". I was merely responding to the very good post of ggg214 which refelected very well my own attitude to my sifu. If you guys don't have the same attitude, that's fine by me, its up to you. But after 20 years in the CIMA's I am more satisfied and content that I have ever been with my art and my teacher.

Very best wishes


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 24, 2008)

clfsean said:


> Did you ever get over to Zhao Chang jun's school?


 

Which is that?


----------



## clfsean (Sep 24, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> Which is that?



His wushu school near the Big Goose pagoda there. Famous for his ditang. His teacher is/was a Zha Quan master & contemporary of Ma Xian Da there in Xi'an.

Just curious...


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 24, 2008)

clfsean said:


> His wushu school near the Big Goose pagoda there. Famous for his ditang. His teacher is/was a Zha Quan master & contemporary of Ma Xian Da there in Xi'an.
> 
> Just curious...


 

Nope, never got to a school by the DaYanTa, though I didn't live too far from there. The wushu I studied was at a small school in the Muslim quarter. Taijiquan was mostly in the park outside the city wall by the Peace Gate.


----------



## clfsean (Sep 24, 2008)

Unkogami said:


> Nope, never got to a school by the DaYanTa, though I didn't live too far from there. The wushu I studied was at a small school in the Muslim quarter. Taijiquan was mostly in the park outside the city wall by the Peace Gate.



Loved the Muslim night market over by the Bell Tower.  Great kebobs.


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 24, 2008)

Good eats (and probably the cleanest in the city).


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 29, 2008)

East Winds said:


> No its not condescension or arrogance and yes, I too have studied with other sifu's and with other systems. However that does not make me a Yang Lu Chan or any other of the Masters you mentioned. And Xue Sheng, you of all people would have I thought, understood the Chinese psyche. Your Sifu will NEVER tell you he is unhappy. The Sifu who DEMANDS respect will however make you very aware of their feelings!!! There is a subtle difference. I understand where you guys are coming from. It is the western attitude of - "I've paid me money now deliver the goods". I was merely responding to the very good post of ggg214 which refelected very well my own attitude to my sifu. If you guys don't have the same attitude, that's fine by me, its up to you. But after 20 years in the CIMA's I am more satisfied and content that I have ever been with my art and my teacher.
> 
> Very best wishes


 
And your sifu trained with who and how many styles? Answer 2 styles and 3 sifus (or at least that is what his web page states). So how does that fit what you are talking about? And just because 2 are the Yang family it does not necessarily mean that either was happy about it. 

And I understand the Chinese attitude and the Chinese sifu attitude rather well thank you. It is you who have no understanding whatsoever of where I am coming from with this.

I can take you back 40 to 50 years to Hong Kong and tell you with absolute certainty that there were multiple students that went back and forth between Tung Ying Chieh and Yang Shou Zhong and neither much cared. HOWEVER if you were considered a student by either, much what ggg214 is talking about, then that was different. Go to Yang Shou Zhong after being considered a student of Tung Ying Chieh and you were done as a student of Tung Ying Chieh. And just because you train with a Chinese Sifu does NOT mean that he takes you seriously as a student. But (now a days in and out of China) if he does take you seriously as a student you BEST have his permission to go train something else (and here&#8217;s a shock for you, I did) because if he finds out you did and did not tell him, he will still train you (maybe in the US, likely not in China) but not as much.

If you are happy with your art that is just fine, I have nothing against Yang style, I trained it for over 14 years now. From a sifu I highly respect that trained only one style with one and only one sifu (Tung Ying Chieh) and he was considered a student of Tung Ying Chieh BY Tung Ying Chieh. However for some reason I do not quite understand I need to train Xingyiquan and for some reason I cannot explain I found myself back a Chen. Still like Yang but. unlike many today. I take this stuff VERY seriously and if I do not feel that I can dedicate the time to training something that my sifu expects me to train I will not go waste his time like so many do in his class today. And I do honestly feel that IF you want to train Yang style and you want to be serious about it you really need to do the long form 3 times a day and then train any other form you know at least once (in my case that is 5 additional forms not counting the Qigong) and I have not even touched on how much Tuishou should be done yet.

And to tell you my Yang sifu's opinion of Taiji today he absolutely feels the Chen family is doing by far a MUCH better job at Taiji and has a much better understanding of Taiji as well than the Yang family does these days. Also the last time I went to train with Chen Zhenglei he was very aware of it and asked me to tell him hello for him and when I came back he was very interested in what I was taught. As to Xingyiquan he also knows I train it and has no problem with it and has not ever once made any comment that would tell me otherwise and believe me I have brought it up multiple times to try and see what he thinks. 

As to this bit "Your Sifu will NEVER tell you he is unhappy" you might be surprised to hear I am INCREDIBLY sensitive to such things, it is a CHINESE thing (not exclusive to a sifu) and I happen to be married to a Chinese woman and know an awful lot of Chinese people so I best catch those sorts of things. 

So just WHY the hell do you think I stopped going to train with my Yang sifu anyway. You have made an awful lot of assumptions about me thrown it a few insults and got a bit condescending in the process but you just don't seem to get it. And you accuse me of not understaning a CMA sifu. 

As to the "I've paid me money now deliver the goods" again cute... insulting... but cute

I'm done here, think of me what you will I no longer care.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 29, 2008)

geezer said:


> So it is a mindset thing... an _individual_ mindset, not a cultural one. Some Si-Fus expect total and exclusive loyalty. Now if your Sifu is truly all-knowing, maybe that is justified. And maybe it is disrespectful for a_ child_ to question his elders even with "respect". But _an adult_ should have open eyes, be willing to ask tough questions, and seek knowledge broadly. I understand the other point of view. I simply don't accept it!
> 
> Oh, and thanks for the history lesson Xue. It helps give some perspective.


 
Depending on the sifu it makes a big difference whether or not he considers you a student. He may teach you but that does not mean he takes you seriously. And others are much more closed about it while others are much more open. 

Example

From what I gather from what I have been told someone like Tung Kai Ying is rather traditional and has kicked students out for doing things without his permission where my sifu is a bit more open about it. However there are things that if I did teach someone without his permission he would have kicked me out or anyone else for that matter if he had shown them.


----------



## Ian (Sep 30, 2008)

Apologies to others on this post but I dont post that much and was unsure of the etiquette regarding PMs. Is it ok to just PM or should this go on a new thread?
I was reading this post and realised that *clfsean* and *Unkogami *appear to have lived in Xian and I have a non-thread question regarding a tea shop in the Muslim quarter I have been trying to get information on. 
Both apologies and thanks,
Ian


----------



## East Winds (Oct 1, 2008)

Xue Sheng,

Thank you for that!! What can I say after such a tirade!! With experts like yourself on this board, clearly there is nothing of value I can add to these discussions so I will bow out. All I can say is that you still do not understand. 

Very best wishes


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 1, 2008)

East Winds said:


> Xue Sheng,
> 
> Thank you for that!! What can I say after such a tirade!! With experts like yourself on this board, clearly there is nothing of value I can add to these discussions so I will bow out. All I can say is that you still do not understand.
> 
> Very best wishes


 
Unlike some here, I have never claimed to be an expert, but I do have a pretty good grasp of the history and I have been doing this stuff for a long time.

What I find interesting is that you completely avoid anything that I said in all posts and go for the insult, it is apparently easier. What is of particular interest to me is you did not respond at all to the loyalty to one teacher bit you are so proud of when your Sifu claims 3 sifus and yet you still manage to come off as condescending.

But if you believe I do not understand and understanding means agreeing with you on this then all I can say is I am happy you feel that way.


----------



## oxy (Oct 1, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> What I find interesting is that you completely avoid anything that I said in all posts and go for the insult, it is apparently easier.



Having been on the receiving end of this avoid-and-insult tactic, I find it less interesting and more annoying (even when I'm not on the receiving end) 

Apparently, he's using the Taiji style of debate (of his own admission) of "ward off" and "push". Can't see how a forum can have any honest discussion with this tactic going on.


----------

