# Funakoshi was Mabuni's junior?



## Miles (Jan 7, 2006)

I just viewed Tsunami Production's "Shito-Ryu Karate-The Island Of Budo."

In the early part of the tape, the narrator says that Mabuni Sensei was senior to Funakoshi Sensei.  I find this hard to believe as Funakoshi was much older and started training with Itosu Sensei before Mabuni.

Does anyone know why Mabuni would be considered senior?  

Miles


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## madfrank (Jan 9, 2006)

Hi

Well Funakoshi taught schoolchildren as he was a school teacher.

The style he taught which became shotokan was developed by Master Itosu for school children.

There is debate as to whether funakoshi knew adult karate or just the childrens version.

He never taught it to the Japanese, he just taught them the watered down schoolboy stuff..

This may be why he was considered junior to Mabuni.

MF


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## Danjo (Jan 9, 2006)

madfrank said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> Well Funakoshi taught schoolchildren as he was a school teacher.
> 
> ...


 
Well, it seems that the schoolboy Karate was good enough for Mas Oyama. At least he didn't run Funakoshi down:

"In 1938, at the young age of fifteen, Oyama wanted to serve the country he now called home and therefore joined Japan's Yamanashi Youth Air Force Academy with the intentions of becoming a pilot. *In September of this same year, Oyama became a student of Gichin Funakoshi, Shotokan Karate founder, at the Takushoku University. Funakoshi, a school teacher from Okinawa, was credited with introducing karate to Japan. It is this man that Oyama later would refer to as his true karate teacher. Throughout the years Oyama always spoke highly of Funakoshi, remarking in later recollections of his gentle yet overwhelming presence. Oyama went on to say that of the many things he learned from Funakoshi, kata (formal exercises) was the most important.* "


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## Miles (Jan 9, 2006)

madfrank said:
			
		

> The style he taught which became shotokan was developed by Master Itosu for school children.
> 
> There is debate as to whether funakoshi knew adult karate or just the childrens version.
> 
> ...



So you are saying that Itosu taught a different karate to Funakoshi that he taught to Mabuni?  Or was Mabuni's primary influence Higaonna?  Regardless, I always thought the junior/senior relationship was based on when someone started their training...

RE: Mas Oyama-Danjo, if you've not already seen it, suggest you see the Korean movie "Fighter In The Wind."  It is a loose biography of Mas Oyama with pretty decent (albeit short ) fight scenes and a really well done section about his training in the mountains.

Miles


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## madfrank (Jan 10, 2006)

Hi

I know Oyama trained with Funakoshi in his younger days.

But Mas Oyama's Karate is nothing like Funakoshis.

Oyama did full contact stuff and the hundred man fights, there is nothing like this in Shotokan.

Funakoshi may have known the real stuff as I alluded to in my above post but he never taught it to the Japanese, Oyama wasn't Japanese.

The Okinawans were essentially prisoners of the Japanese for most of their history.

Why would they terach them the good oil?

MF


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## Danjo (Jan 10, 2006)

madfrank said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> I know Oyama trained with Funakoshi in his younger days.
> 
> ...


 
Man, you're basing this on nothing. Shotokan was and is a very tough Karate. There were those like Motobu who hated Funakoshi due to his perception of Funakoshi's taking credit for a fight that Motobu had won, but for the most part Funakoshi was highly respected. The Japanese weren't stupid. They knew what good fighting was. They had Jiu Jitsu and Judo etc. and wouldn't have been sucked in to a weak form of Karate. Also, what makes you think that Oyama's being Korean would make Funakoshi teach him the "real" Karate?


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## TimoS (Jan 10, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> There were those like Motobu who hated Funakoshi due to his perception of Funakoshi's taking credit for a fight that Motobu had won



While that must have been part of it, there were other things that these two karate greats just didn't see eye-to-eye on. Motobu was a fighter, Funakoshi seems to me to have been more of thinker



> Also, what makes you think that Oyama's being Korean would make Funakoshi teach him the "real" Karate?



That seems far fetched to me also


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 10, 2006)

Funakoshi was seen as junior to all the masters of his day.  Not just Mabuni, but Miyagi, Motobu, etc.

The karate that he taught was in fact modified to meet the needs of the school children.  He was not chosen to go to Japan to represent Karate because he was seen as a better Karateka than anyone.  He was sent because he spoke the language and was more likely to be accepted by the Japanese.

When the Dai Nippon Butokukai accepted Karate and issued the first rankings,Fnuakoshi was given 5th Dan.  Mabuni and Miyagi 7th Dan.  I do not know about Motobu.

Motobu was not only angry at Funakoshi over the issue of him taking credit for the victory over the boxer.  He despised Funakoshi because he saw his karate as being weak and flet he was ruining the arts reputation.  Also Funakoshi was known to often bad mouth Motobu, calling him illiterate and dumb.  Funakoshi saw Motobu as kind of a country bumpkin as compared to his educated, elite self.  Even though in Okinawa, Motobu came from a higher class family.

Funakoshi was a very shrewd politician.  Not only schmoozing with government officials, but giving them "black belt" rankings, so they had certificates to show thier friends at parties.  

Funakoshi failed at a number of careers before he became a bureaucrat in the schools.  And we was pretty much incompetent at running his karate organization.  Technically, he was not the founder of Shotokan.  His students were.  They built the dojo for him and ran it.  He just taught as they built the organization around him.  Later it was Nakayama that made Shotokan into what it was.

Mas Oyama did train with Funakoshi.  But he moved on.  Konishi, the Shindo Jinen Ryu founder also trained with Funakoshi, but dropped him like hot potatoe when he met Motobu.

If not for his ability to speak Japanese at the time and his schmoozing skills, Shotokan would have remained the "school boy karate" that is always was and would never have spread beyond the school systems.  But because of his pblic relations skills then, people today still look at Shotokan as some form of fighting art.


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## Gene Williams (Jan 10, 2006)

...and that about covers it.


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## Danjo (Jan 11, 2006)

Funakoshi was seen as junior to all the masters of his day. Not just Mabuni, but Miyagi, Motobu, etc.

*Okay.*

The karate that he taught was in fact modified to meet the needs of the school children. He was not chosen to go to Japan to represent Karate because he was seen as a better Karateka than anyone. He was sent because he spoke the language and was more likely to be accepted by the Japanese.

*Sent by whom? Are you saying that they would send someone who was lousy at Karate merely because they spoke the language? I thought the Emperor saw Funakoshi demonstrate Karate in Okinawa and thus invited him.*

When the Dai Nippon Butokukai accepted Karate and issued the first rankings,Fnuakoshi was given 5th Dan. Mabuni and Miyagi 7th Dan. I do not know about Motobu.

*I don't think Motobu was given rank.*

Motobu was not only angry at Funakoshi over the issue of him taking credit for the victory over the boxer. He despised Funakoshi because he saw his karate as being weak and felt he was ruining the art's reputation. 

*I've seen footage of Funakoshi demonstrating kata. He moved pretty well when compared to other old timers. I think his "weak" skills are exaggerations by Motobu.*

Also Funakoshi was known to often bad mouth Motobu, calling him illiterate and dumb. 

*I think the bad mouthing started with Motobu. But you may be right here. Funakoshi did exaggerate Motobu's illiteracy.*

Funakoshi failed at a number of careers before he became a bureaucrat in the schools. And we was pretty much incompetent at running his karate organization. Technically, he was not the founder of Shotokan. His students were. They built the dojo for him and ran it. He just taught as they built the organization around him. Later it was Nakayama that made Shotokan into what it was. Mas Oyama did train with Funakoshi. But he moved on. 

*Again I refer you to the quote about Oyama: "It is this man that Oyama later would refer to as his true karate teacher. Throughout the years Oyama always spoke highly of Funakoshi, remarking in later recollections of his gentle yet overwhelming presence."*
*(hardly sounds like an incompetent. But perhaps Oyama was a liar?)*

Konishi, the Shindo Jinen Ryu founder also trained with Funakoshi, but dropped him like hot potatoe when he met Motobu.

*I don't know anythng about this Mr. Quayle. *

If not for his ability to speak Japanese at the time and his schmoozing skills, Shotokan would have remained the "school boy karate" that is always was and would never have spread beyond the school systems. But because of his public relations skills then, people today still look at Shotokan as some form of fighting art.

*The fact is that the same can be said for Judo or BJJ. PR skills are often needed to get something off the ground. I think Shotokan's track record speaks for itself. It is a fighting art as are the other Karate styles.*


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## TimoS (Jan 11, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> I've seen footage of Funakoshi demonstrating kata. He moved pretty well when compared to other old timers. I think his "weak" skills are exaggerations by Motobu.



That may be true (can't say, because I've never seen any footage of Funakoshi), but as I understood it, Motobu critized Funakoshi mainly (?) because he felt that Funakoshi's kata was more or less a "pretty dance", since Funakoshi didn't fight. Motobu himself, on the hand, was very much a fighter



			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> PR skills are often needed to get something off the ground. I think Shotokan's track record speaks for itself. It is a fighting art as are the other Karate styles.



I agree. People skills are often underestimated, but they are needed. And yes, Shotokan is a fighting art, but only if the practitioner makes it so. This is, of course, true for every other system also


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## arnisador (Jan 11, 2006)

_Is _there movie footage of Gichin Funakoshi in action? I've only ever seen still pictures.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 11, 2006)

I've seen movie footage, very short, not too exciting, and he was very old.

As for the question as too who was senior... They where seperate styles and are now both dead.  Does it make any difference?

I'd imagine the Shotokan people will claim one thing, the shito-ryu people another, and everyone else will look at them funny, as if they just asked whether Jame Kirk outranked Luke Skywalker....


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 11, 2006)

*Sent by whom? Are you saying that they would send someone who was lousy at Karate merely because they spoke the language? *
*Mainly - yes.*  But he was not lousy - just inferior.  It was the powerful strikes and breaking ability that impressed the Emporer, not Funakoshi's fighting skills.  It was thr fighting skills of Motobu and Mabuni that impressed the Japanese.

*Again I refer you to the quote about Oyama: "It is this man that Oyama later would refer to as his true karate teacher. Throughout the years Oyama always spoke highly of Funakoshi, remarking in later recollections of his gentle yet overwhelming presence."*
*(hardly sounds like an incompetent. But perhaps Oyama was a liar?)*
He was being polite.  When/where did he speak of Funakoshi's superior skills?  Many incompetent people are gentle and personable.

Konishi, the Shindo Jinen Ryu founder also trained with Funakoshi, but dropped him like hot potatoe when he met Motobu.

*I don't know anythng about this Mr. Quayle. *
I guess you know about as much about produce as you do Karate
http://www.idaho-potatoes.com/idaho_potatoe.html 


*The fact is that the same can be said for Judo or BJJ.*
Yes, BJJ is crap to.  But they did a great job of selling it.   Like P.T. Barnum said, there's one born every minute.  It was not P.R. skills that sold the Japanese martial arts community on Judo.  It was serious tournanment victories.


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## Danjo (Jan 11, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> _Is _there movie footage of Gichin Funakoshi in action? I've only ever seen still pictures.


 
There are a couple of clips here: http://www.karate-shotokan-kata.com/Karate-kata-videos.html


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## Danjo (Jan 11, 2006)

Yes, BJJ is crap to. But they did a great job of selling it. Like P.T. Barnum said, there's one born every minute. It was not P.R. skills that sold the Japanese martial arts community on Judo. It was serious tournanment victories.

*OOOOOOOOOOOOoookay.*


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## Miles (Jan 11, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> Funakoshi was seen as junior to all the masters of his day.  Not just Mabuni, but Miyagi, Motobu, etc.
> 
> .....
> 
> When the Dai Nippon Butokukai accepted Karate and issued the first rankings,Fnuakoshi was given 5th Dan. Mabuni and Miyagi 7th Dan. I do not know about Motobu.



First of all, welcome to MT Kenpojujitsu.  Sorry for the heavy editing, but I want to be sure I understand your first statement.  Since ranking came after Funakoshi (or Mabuni or Miyagi or Motobu, etc.) arrived in Japan from Okinawa, I want to distinguish that from the concept of "seniority."  

I still don't understand how someone who started his training prior to Mabuni and Miyagi (who after all were about the same age and both were at least 12 yrs younger than Funakoshi) would be considered their junior.  I have not read of any lapses in Funakoshi's training (though admittedly in his biography about Karate being his life, it's not likely that he'd mention any gaps).

Thanks for the responses which have been on point.

Miles


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 11, 2006)

In modern Karate classes and events, people line up by rank not by age.
The higher ranks are considered senior.  It is possible for a younger person to be senior to an older person.  It is also possible for a junior" to advance faster and "pass up" a senior.

When Funskoshi trained with Itosu, he trained privately and there were no rankings.  So he was senior in the class to no one.

I do not know much about Mabuni's time with Itosu off the top of my head.  Had there been a class with both Mabuni and Funakoshi, it would have been up to Itosu to say who was senior. 

In the general Karate community, in comparing the founders of the major styles, Funakoshi was regarded as a lesser master than all the others of.  He was looked upon as junior to all.  The DNBK also saw it that way when assigning the first rankings.  Thus, of all the founders of the day, Funakoshi was ranked the lowest.

Outside of Motobu who openly despised Funakoshi and said he thought his karate was weak and for school boys, no one came and said "Shotokan sucks" like they do now.  But it is a known historical fact that his "peers" saw him as not being on par with the others - especially with Mabuni and Miyagi - this he was seen as everyone's junior.

I have seen nothing in any new writings that indicate that Funakoshi was wrongly considered to be the "junior master" of his day.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Jan 12, 2006)

Not sure why people are so keen to bash Funakoshi sensei...

He might be technically inferior to many of his friends, but this does not affect his place in history as one of the most influential Karate pioneer in the world.

Come to think about it, Otsuka sensei (Wado's founder) was amongst the first, if not THE first, Japanese student of Funakoshi. He started learning with Funakoshi sensei in early 1920s, and parted way with Funakoshi sensei in 1934, mostly due to the fact that he wants to include more effective techniques from Jujutsu into Karate. But Otsuka sensei still respect Funakoshi sensei enough that he posed as Uke for Funakoshi in Karatedo Kyohan, which was made in late 30s/early 40s. 

While Otsuka sensei MIGHT have felt that the Karate system that Funakoshi taught has many "weaknesses", at least he still respect his teacher.


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## Danjo (Jan 12, 2006)

Having read many articles and the book by Motobu, I think that he was a great Karate fighter. No one questions this. However, I think  that his hostility towards Funakoshi and Kano came from frustration. Funakoshi, and those that were with the Dai Nippon Butokukai had a lock on Japan in terms of teaching Karate. Motobu was unable to get a great following there, and even those he did recruit, were not always able to understand him due to the language difference. He was the "High quality Mom-and-Pop store." and Funakoshi and Kano were the Wal-Mart of their times for Karate and Judo. Kano had dealt with the same attitudes towards himself from old-style Jiu Jitsu-ka who felt that Judo was too safe and tame. If things had been left to Motobu and his ilk, Karate would have stayed a back-water art known only to a few people that could personally train with the master instead of the international phenomenon it has become. Is it better to learn Karate like Motobu taught it? Probably. Is it practical? No. Funakoshi made Karate accessible to the masses. Without him, most of us would probably not know what Karate is today.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 12, 2006)

does it really make a hill of beans difference anyway?
both men left huge legacies that have the martial arts world discussing them long after they've left the world.


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## arnisador (Jan 12, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> There are a couple of clips here: http://www.karate-shotokan-kata.com/Karate-kata-videos.html


 
There's some great stuff there. The footage is grainy but the execution is so sharp and powerful!


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## Danjo (Jan 12, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> There's some great stuff there. The footage is grainy but the execution is so sharp and powerful!


 
Here's another good link for Shotokan Kata. No Funakoshi on this one, but good stuff.

http://www.shotojukukai.com/kata/kata.htm


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## Gene Williams (Jan 12, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Having read many articles and the book by Motobu, I think that he was a great Karate fighter. No one questions this. However, I think that his hostility towards Funakoshi and Kano came from frustration. Funakoshi, and those that were with the Dai Nippon Butokukai had a lock on Japan in terms of teaching Karate. Motobu was unable to get a great following there, and even those he did recruit, were not always able to understand him due to the language difference. He was the "High quality Mom-and-Pop store." and Funakoshi and Kano were the Wal-Mart of their times for Karate and Judo. Kano had dealt with the same attitudes towards himself from old-style Jiu Jitsu-ka who felt that Judo was too safe and tame. If things had been left to Motobu and his ilk, Karate would have stayed a back-water art known only to a few people that could personally train with the master instead of the international phenomenon it has become. Is it better to learn Karate like Motobu taught it? Probably. Is it practical? No. Funakoshi made Karate accessible to the masses. Without him, most of us would probably not know what Karate is today.


 
You are correct, but I think a lot was lost in the Japanization/popularization of Okinawan karate, especially with the changes in kata and the de-emphasis of bunkai. But, as you say, you nor I either one might be here if it weren't for Funakoshi.


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## Danjo (Jan 13, 2006)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> You are correct, but I think a lot was lost in the Japanization/popularization of Okinawan karate, especially with the changes in kata and the de-emphasis of bunkai. But, as you say, you nor I either one might be here if it weren't for Funakoshi.


 
From what I'm currently reading, no one understood the bunkai to begin with after Itosu and Matsamura. They simply didn't pass it on. Motobu criticized Funakoshi for not understanding the Bunkai, but he didn't know Itosu's bunkai either. They all just sort of felt their way around in the dark. _*Shotokan's Secret*_ goes into this quite a bit.


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 13, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> _*Shotokan's Secret*_ goes into this quite a bit.


 
This is an interesting book, but largely absurd.  It is not based on any actual fact.  The author just conjured up a facniful history based on an old drawing that they found.
There is some discussion of it e-budo.com


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## Danjo (Jan 13, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> This is an interesting book, but largely absurd. It is not based on any actual fact. The author just conjured up a facniful history based on an old drawing that they found.
> There is some discussion of it e-budo.com


 
The first part is factual and footnoted pretty heavily. The remainder is pure speculation, but the author states that up front.


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## arnisador (Jan 13, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> There is some discussion of it e-budo.com



They usually have people who know for sure. Do you have a link?


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 13, 2006)

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30006


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## Miles (Jan 13, 2006)

Thanks for all the informative responses and the links.

Miles


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## arnisador (Jan 14, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30006


Thanks!


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 15, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Funakoshi made Karate accessible to the masses. Without him, most of us would probably not know what Karate is today.


 
It's true that he made karate available to the masses.  But I doubt that we would not know what karate is today without him.

The spread of karate was inevitable.  Even without Fnakoshi going to Japan and Shotoak building up around him, there was still Mabuni, Miyagi and others.  It might have happened at a later date, but it would have spread - only differently.

At the same time Karate was starting to spread in Japan from Okinawa, it was also spreading to Hawaii directly from Okinawa.  Students of Motobu went to Hawaii, as did Miyagi.  You can read some history at the Hawaii Karate Museum site http://www.hikari.us/

Even after WWII, American servicemen still would have learned in Okinawa and brought some back to the states.  Plus, it would have spread from Hawaii to California and on to the rest of the country.

Those styles, like Tae Kwon Do, that came about as just rehashed Shotokan may not exist.  But Goju RYu, Shito Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Motobu Ryu, Shorin Ryu and the others still would have taken root and grew

I still think that Funakoshi's contributions are over-rated.


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## Danjo (Jan 15, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> Those styles, like Tae Kwon Do, that came about as just rehashed Shotokan may not exist. But Goju RYu, Shito Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Motobu Ryu, Shorin Ryu and the others still would have taken root and grew
> 
> I still think that Funakoshi's contributions are over-rated.


 
Where is Motobu Ryu being taught? I know his son Chosei teaches it, but it is not exactly wide-spread as far as I know. Many of the other Karate Masters were brought to Japan due to interest created by Funakoshi. Also, a big reason that Karate was allowed to come back and be taught the way it was was due to the interest created in Japan before WWII. If it had remained an obscure Okinawan art, it might have died out. Motobu's contribution to Karate in Hawaii is what I think is overrated. He couldn't even get out of the holding facility. That experience was always described as frustrating for him.

I think that you have some bizzare axe to grind where Funakoshi is concerned. He may not have been the greatest Karate fighter of all time, but he was a good teacher and the seeds he planted have yeilded an enormous harvest. I don't know a lot of Motobu Ryu stylists.


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 15, 2006)

"Where is Motobu Ryu being taught?"
It's not the spread of Motobu Ryu, as much as the influence.  Motobu's Karate had a strong influence on what was being taught in Hawaii and is the foundation for what many people call "Kenpo Jujitsu".
Motobu and Miyagi had a far greater impact on Karate in Hawaii than Funakoshi.
If Funakoshi were not in the picture, the arts still would have spread from Hawaii to CA and the rest of the country.


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## Danjo (Jan 16, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> "Where is Motobu Ryu being taught?"
> It's not the spread of Motobu Ryu, as much as the influence. Motobu's Karate had a strong influence on what was being taught in Hawaii and is the foundation for what many people call "Kenpo Jujitsu".
> Motobu and Miyagi had a far greater impact on Karate in Hawaii than Funakoshi.
> If Funakoshi were not in the picture, the arts still would have spread from Hawaii to CA and the rest of the country.


 
Motobu's influence on Mitose is dubious beyond the fact that Mitose plagiarized part of Motobu's book to make his own. I don't consider the spread of Hawaiian Kenpo/Kempo to be the same as the spread of traditional Karate. Chinese Kung Fu might also have spread to the USA eventually, but that is not what we're talking about here.


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 16, 2006)

Yes, Mitose basically copied Motobu's book.  Many think he was able to obtain a copy and mainly reproduce the photographs.
But Motobu's students did have a strong influence on Karate in Hawaii.  Much more than Funakoshi or his students.
Mitose likely trained with the students of Motobu who did make it to Hawaii.  Mitose was a scoundrel but he did have skills that you can not develop just be reading books.  He trained with someone.

There is a reason why he tried to emulate Motobu and not Funakoshi.  That is because of Motobu's reputation in Hawaii.  The traditonal karate in Hawaii at the time was mainly influenced by 2 people - Motobu and Miyagi.

Again, the path was from Okinawa to Hawaii.  Not Okinawa, Funakoshi/Japan, then Hawaii.  Karate in Hawaii developed without the help of Funakoshi and thus would have spread to the U.S. without even a mention of Funakoshi.  Funakoshi may be seen as the "father of modern karate" in Japan by many.  But he is largely irrelevant outside of Japan.

Karate most certainly would have spread around the world without Funakoshi.  It would have been slower and kept much more traditional, but it woas destined to happen.  That was one of Miyagi's goals for Goju Ryu.  Motobu may have had some different goals, but spreading out beyond Okinawa was most certainly one of his goals.  If not, he would not have been concerned about Hawaii at all.


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