# Congrats to all on Sin Moo HKD Asian tour



## Kuk Sa Nim (Jul 10, 2010)

Congratulations to all who attended the recent "Handing Down the Techniques" seminars in Korea, and subsequent seminars held. It sounds like an amazing time. Training in Korea and especially training personally with the likes of GM Ji, Han Jae is a rare and special opportunity. (I only wish I could have joined you). I'm sure you all have a lifetime of many treasured memories. These type of events do not happen often, and we must take advantage. Congratulations to all again. 

Also HUGE congratulations to Grand Master Kenneth MacKenzie, Grandmaster Jurg Ziegler and Grandmaster Merrill Jung on their promotions to 10th Dan by GM Ji, Han Jae. This is truly an historical event and I applaud my brothers on this fantastic and much deserved recognition. 

Pictures and some info can be found here:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?aid=60371&id=1078812180&ref=mf

http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?aid=7138&id=100001083183204

http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?aid=7146&id=100001083183204

Let us congratulate and celebrate these awesome accomplishments in true friendship and brotherhood.

Grand Master Michael De Alba


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## Disco (Jul 10, 2010)

OK, let's attempt to try to understand just what actually is going on. First, nothing against the persons who have been so designated for promotions and I have no qualms that their Hapkido abilities are above reproach, but 10th Dans????? 

What happened to the structured chain of command that we have always been directed to, when dealing with questions of Rank? Lets see, Ji is the head of Sin Moo Hapkido and as such his rank, according to what we have been told, is that of 10th Dan. Now I fully realize that being the "Head", he can do whatever he darn well pleases, but handing out additional 10th Dans to those under him seems really..............can't even find the word to describe it, but for the sake of discussion, lets just say strange. I've always been instructed that no student can achieve the same rank as their instructor, "While being under that instructor". So now what happens to Ji. does he now become the first ever 11th Dan in Hapkido? Perhaps it's just me, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the concept of having 4 / 10th Dans under the same discipline heading - Sin Moo Hapkido.


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## terrylamar (Jul 10, 2010)

Disco said:


> OK, let's attempt to try to understand just what actually is going on. First, nothing against the persons who have been so designated for promotions and I have no qualms that their Hapkido abilities are above reproach, but 10th Dans?????
> 
> What happened to the structured chain of command that we have always been directed to, when dealing with questions of Rank? Lets see, Ji is the head of Sin Moo Hapkido and as such his rank, according to what we have been told, is that of 10th Dan. Now I fully realize that being the "Head", he can do whatever he darn well pleases, but handing out additional 10th Dans to those under him seems really..............can't even find the word to describe it, but for the sake of discussion, lets just say strange. I've always been instructed that no student can achieve the same rank as their instructor, "While being under that instructor". So now what happens to Ji. does he now become the first ever 11th Dan in Hapkido? Perhaps it's just me, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the concept of having 4 / 10th Dans under the same discipline heading - Sin Moo Hapkido.


 
Logically, a student will surpass his master.  As long as the master teaches everything he knows, the student still brings to the table what he know and the master does not.

Perhaps he is preparing his organization for his eventual death.


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## dortiz (Jul 10, 2010)

Not my School so its of no effect in many ways. I dont see it much different than the pre Dan system of Japan where the Master handed scrolls and the right to teach to their top students essentailly handed the art over to them.
I think this was the official hand off (my time is coming to an end) event.
I dont know all three but I have met and attended training with Master Mackenzie. He has been there for Dojunim for decades and strives to make Sin Moo a greater thing. he is also a great guy.
I was very fortunate to train under Master Jung. I know he was instrumental in helping Dojunim get to the states and also has been there for him. He is very quiet politacally but an amazing man and keeper of the faith. I cant imagine a better person on the West Coast to carry the torch.


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## Disco (Jul 10, 2010)

OK, lets say that this was / is  the "official hand off (my time is coming to an end) event."............Normally, isn't there only one individual that the GM hands the organization over to?. I still don't see the need for having 3 people front the organization, unless 2 of those people are going to formulate their own kwan/style of Hapkido and Ji gave his blessing to that aspect. Perhaps it's just me and I can't see the forest for the trees here, but this just seems to go against everything I've/we've been taught, in regards to the setup of a disciplines ranking structure.

Logically, a student will surpass his master..............Perhaps in overall physical abilities, but the student only learns what the master teaches. It really doesn't matter what the student brings to the table, because the student is now learning something new. If the student already knew what the discipline was, then he didn't need to seek out the master for knowledge. Within the confines of the discipline, the way it's presented to the student, he can only go as far as the master allows him to go. Now if the student starts to delve outside of the given structure of the discipline, then we have a different rational. He then surpasses the master, but not within the confines of the given discipline. 

 "As long as the master  teaches everything he knows, the student still brings to the table what  he know and the master does not."

I'm sorry, but I totally confused by this statement................


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## terrylamar (Jul 10, 2010)

"As long as the master teaches everything he knows, the student still brings to the table what he know and the master does not."

I'm sorry, but I totally confused by this statement................ ""

A master know only what he knows, no more than that.  Therefore, he can't teach more than he knows.

A student knows what he knows, what he has learned and learns outside of the influnce of his master. 

If the master teaches his student everything the master knows, the student knows more, because he learned something before his master taught him and outside of his master's teaching.

The student will always know more than his master.  Even assuming the master and student exchange all life experiences they will be equal until the master dies and the student continues to learn.


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## chrispillertkd (Jul 10, 2010)

Disco said:


> OK, let's attempt to try to understand just what actually is going on. First, nothing against the persons who have been so designated for promotions and I have no qualms that their Hapkido abilities are above reproach, but 10th Dans?????
> 
> What happened to the structured chain of command that we have always been directed to, when dealing with questions of Rank? Lets see, Ji is the head of Sin Moo Hapkido and as such his rank, according to what we have been told, is that of 10th Dan. Now I fully realize that being the "Head", he can do whatever he darn well pleases, but handing out additional 10th Dans to those under him seems really..............can't even find the word to describe it, but for the sake of discussion, lets just say strange. I've always been instructed that no student can achieve the same rank as their instructor, "While being under that instructor". So now what happens to Ji. does he now become the first ever 11th Dan in Hapkido? Perhaps it's just me, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the concept of having 4 / 10th Dans under the same discipline heading - Sin Moo Hapkido.


 
I'm no hapkido man so take what I say with a shaker full of salt.

I seriously doubt GM Ji would claim 11th dan (although I suppose he could if he _wanted_; he invented Sin Moo he can do whatever he wants with it). 

In Aikido Morihei Ueshiba never claimed any sort of rank, being simply the head of the style. His son and grandson were also, as far as I know, always outside the ranking system as they were destined to be style heads. Perhaps GM Ji is thinking something along those lines, i.e. he's the style head and so is somewhat "outside" the ranking system. Gen. Choi, after he promoted GM Rhee, Ki Ha and then GM Hwang, Kwang Sung and GM Charles Sereff was usually referred to as the founder instead of as a IX dan, although everyone knew he was the ITF's very first IX dan. It will be interesting to see if GM Ji does the same thing.

GM Ji is getting along in years and as an outsider it would make sense to make sure there are people who are prepared to continue on with his system. That includes having people at the top of the food chain, so to speak (being senior most in rank) so they can promote others. I have little doubt that the men in question have more than sufficient physical skills and loyalty for their promotions. 

As for the single head of a style, from what I have seen Hapkido has always been a bit more on the diffusive side when it comes to things. There are many different Hapkido kwans around. Maybe GM Ji took this into consideration when deciding to promote three students to 10th dan. Perhaps he thinks it will be better to have a few top dogs working together for the good of the style instead of trying to keep things under one man given the track record of splits that MA's have gone through when the seniors students don't like the chosen successor. This way there would be more options for people. 

Like I said, I'm an outsider and this is all just speculation 

Me personally, I am much more sympathetic to the single successor view of things, but that's just me. I wish GM Ji and his students every possible success in the future as well as a hearty congratulation on their promotions.

Pax,

Chris


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 10, 2010)

Kuk Sa Nim said:


> Congratulations to all who attended the recent "Handing Down the Techniques" seminars in Korea, and subsequent seminars held. It sounds like an amazing time. Training in Korea and especially training personally with the likes of GM Ji, Han Jae is a rare and special opportunity. (I only wish I could have joined you). I'm sure you all have a lifetime of many treasured memories. These type of events do not happen often, and we must take advantage. Congratulations to all again.
> 
> Also HUGE congratulations to Grand Master Kenneth MacKenzie, Grandmaster Jurg Ziegler and Grandmaster Merrill Jung on their promotions to 10th Dan by GM Ji, Han Jae. This is truly an historical event and I applaud my brothers on this fantastic and much deserved recognition.
> 
> ...


Cool pictures!  Thank you for sharing them!  And congrats to Grand Master Kenneth MacKenzie, Grandmaster Jurg Ziegler and Grandmaster Merrill Jung!!

Daniel


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## Disco (Jul 12, 2010)

"A student knows what he knows, what he has learned and learns outside of  the influnce of his master."

True, but were dealing with the knowledge of teaching a discipline. The Master himself knows additional things outside of the discipline, so attempting to compare that the student brings more to the table is not a factual condition.

"If the master teaches his student everything the master knows, the  student knows more, because he learned something before his master  taught him and outside of his master's teaching."

Again, see the above statement. The master also knows more than just what he offers the student.

"The student will always know more than his master.  Even assuming the  master and student exchange all life experiences they will be equal  until the master dies and the student continues to learn."

True to an extent.........If the master teaches the student everything and the student retains those teachings, but continuing learning after the master is gone will not mean that the student will surpass the master within that particular discipline, it only means that the student now is learning something different. Everybody has influences outside of the dojo/dojang, this doesn't mean they bring anything of value to the table, unless they have studied another discipline and even then, learning this new discipline, means that they may have to discharge most if not all of what they previously learned, so we again go back to an even slate.

Now as far as they original intent of this thread regarding multiple 10th Dan promotions, I'll offer just one additional aspect to mull over. Remenber when Gen Choi ITF/TKD passed, the ITF split into 3 separate factions. From my viewpoint, I see the very same thing is going to happen here. Human nature and egos being what they are. At least one of these individuals must have some seniority (Time wise) over they other two and I would venture to say that will raise up at some point. Show me another MA's organization/group that has multiple heads and has stayed functional.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 13, 2010)

terrylamar said:


> Logically, a student will surpass his master.  As long as the master teaches everything he knows, the student still brings to the table what he know and the master does not.


 I think that surpass is not the right word.  As Disco points out, the master also brings his or her own experiences with them, as they were a student at one time as well.

And most students never equal their master, let alone surpass them.  

Then there is the question of surpassing the master's physical skills; are those skills truly surpassed or did the master's physical ability decline due to age and/or injury?  One must compare the skills of the advanced student to the skills of the master at his or her peak to truly determine if they have surpassed them physically.

I think that a better way to say it is that a student who stays with it and constantly works to learn all that the master teaches and to learn it well will expand on that with their own experiences, just as the master did with what he or she learned from his or her master.  

Both master and student have knowledge that is more expansive than the curriculum, but it is not the *same* knowledge, thus neither is truly superior.  

Also, the master will always have a number of years of experience that the student does not in the art until the master dies and the student then can either meet or exceed that time.  



terrylamar said:


> Perhaps he is preparing his organization for his eventual death.


Perhaps.  Given his age, that would not be surprising.

Daniel


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