# The Miraculous Power of Fasting



## Instructor (Apr 5, 2022)

I've practiced intermittent fasting for the past couple of years, mostly for longevity reasons.  I want to live a while to enjoy my military retirement. By intermittent fasting I mean I eat one meal a day (OMAD), sometimes two meals a day (2MAD).  In other words most days I don't eat any food or drink calories for at least 16 hours a day.

Once or twice a year I do a prolonged fast which I would define as not eating food or drinking calories for a period greater than 24 hours.

Last fall I was building a shed and fell off a 6 foot ladder.  On the way to the ground my shoulder struck a work table.  At the time I thought it had just knocked the wind out of me. But a few days later my left shoulder experienced extreme pain.  It hurt when I moved it, and it even hurt when I didn't move anything.  I went to my GP who prescribed some pretty serious pain killers which didn't help all that much. I got a referral to an orthopedic doctor who gave me steroid injections to my shoulder. 

An interesting thing happened, my left shoulder improved but then my right shoulder started hurting even worse than the left one was.  To me that was very strange. The orthopedic doctor said I had been over compensating with my right side because the left was out of use and I strained it too. She put me in physical therapy.

Three months of physical therapy and I still had pain though much of the range of motion and function had returned, I still felt weak.

Bear in mind, I am a Hapkido teacher and I didn't neglect my students.  I couldn't mix it up with them but I still came to every practice and guided them verbally as much as I could and only went hands on when I had to. Pain was just constant, always there.  The painkillers would reduce it some but after a few hours it would be back.

Saturday night I ate with my family and decided maybe it is time to fast again for a few days. All I permitted myself was water, herbal tea, and black coffee. No food so no pain killers. After 24 hours of fasting I noticed the pain was greatly reduced, I suspect this represents a reduction in inflammation primarily. I pulled up a graph by Dr. Mindy Pelz, a YouTuber I follow.  Her fasting graph is based on three massive studies which are cited at the bottom of the graph. 

You can see her chart here: Fasting Benefits Chart

By hour 46 of my fast the pain was completely gone! A fast of that duration would have numerous health benefits but the one I think I am experiencing is an increase in musculoskeletal stem cells which begins around hour 20 and really starts to amp up around hour 45. No pain, no pain meds, I feel like a new man.

At hour 50 I went and taught Hapkido, I was able to get in there and physically mix it up with my students which felt great! I went home after and still no pain.  Today is the day after and I feel fine. As I write this I am at hour 61.  According to Dr. Pelz's chart musculoskeletal stem cell production will peak at hour 72-75 and then it just kind of hangs there at max stem cell production.

I'm planning to break my fast at hour 67 and have dinner with my family.  I'll be curious to see if the pain returns after eating.  I'll let you guys know.

After a winter of pain I feel like a miracle happened.


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## _Simon_ (Apr 6, 2022)

Fascinating... thanks for sharing! Great to hear of your recovery!

I've always wanted to play around with fasts, and maybe do one every now and then (purely from what I've heard about the stem cell regeneration aspect).

Just don't know how that would fit in with all the training I do and the need for fuel


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## Instructor (Apr 6, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Fascinating... thanks for sharing! Great to hear of your recovery!
> 
> I've always wanted to play around with fasts, and maybe do one every now and then (purely from what I've heard about the stem cell regeneration aspect).
> 
> Just don't know how that would fit in with all the training I do and the need for fuel


I find I'm carrying plenty of "fuel" around my midsection to cover many such fasts safely. 

I broke my fast after 67 hours out with my family at our favorite Japanese food restaurant.  This can be a risky move, that first meal could have you spending the evening in the bathroom if you get it wrong. I've found when I just fast a few days it is usually not a problem but if I stretch it to five days then I must be extremely careful about what I eat and how much of it the first meal.

Normally I would order the steak and shrimp teriyaki with yum yum sauce prepared on the hibachi.  However, that would probably have been a digestive disaster. So this time I ordered seaweed salad, salmon sashimi, and an avocado roll.  It was a light meal and worked out just fine. Digestively speaking, everything returned to business as usual.

My shoulder pain did not return.  I did have a little trouble sleeping.  While I'm fasting, after the first full day, I'm not all that hungry; but, once I do eat something I feel ravenous.

The next phase is to really dial in my diet when I am not fasting.  I have a real sugar addiction and that stuff is poison.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2022)

Instructor said:


> I find I'm carrying plenty of "fuel" around my midsection to cover many such fasts safely.
> 
> I broke my fast after 67 hours out with my family at our favorite Japanese food restaurant.  This can be a risky move, that first meal could have you spending the evening in the bathroom if you get it wrong. I've found when I just fast a few days it is usually not a problem but if I stretch it to five days then I must be extremely careful about what I eat and how much of it the first meal.
> 
> ...


I'd stay away from any salmon on the east coast.  That farmed salmon is bad.


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## Instructor (Apr 6, 2022)

Steve said:


> I'd stay away from any salmon on the east coast.  That farmed salmon is bad.


Thanks for the tip, what fish is optimal here?


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 6, 2022)

Instructor said:


> I find I'm carrying plenty of "fuel" around my midsection to cover many such fasts safely.
> 
> I broke my fast after 67 hours out with my family at our favorite Japanese food restaurant.  This can be a risky move, that first meal could have you spending the evening in the bathroom if you get it wrong. I've found when I just fast a few days it is usually not a problem but if I stretch it to five days then I must be extremely careful about what I eat and how much of it the first meal.
> 
> ...


For your keyboard to everyone's noggin, yes.

Sugar, starch, and alcohol are always bad for inflammation.  For many people, add eggs and dairy and wheat to that list.

Even peanut butter, my go to protein fuel, is inflammatory after a certain amount.

It's amazing how much better you feel after a day free from the typical Western diet of red meat, sugar, and refined junk.  Every now and then I'll do a week of nothing but fish, brown rice, and water.  Amazing results, my inner ninja peaks out from under all the swelling.


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 6, 2022)

Steve said:


> I'd stay away from any salmon on the east coast.  That farmed salmon is bad.


It's pretty easy to get non farmed salmon near me, so your mileage may vary depending on your local options I guess.

Farmed salmon isn't "bad" nutritionally, although it is a little higher in (good) fat content and slightly less in mineral content.  Most if not all farmed salmon in the US has strict contamination control too, I know that is true for all the big salmon farming states.


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 6, 2022)

Instructor said:


> Thanks for the tip, what fish is optimal here?


Salmon is always a good option, farmed or not, as far as nutritional content.

For a close second, I'd say tuna steaks.

A lot of people have inflammatory response to shellfish, whether they are aware or not.  Not to mention the salt content.  That's something to avoid.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2022)

Instructor said:


> Thanks for the tip, what fish is optimal here?


Generally, I look for sustainably caught wild fish.  Salmon, in particular, is problematic.  "Atlantic" salmon is code for farmed salmon.  Farmed salmon does not have all of the great omega oils that are so good for you that wild caught salmon has.  Wild salmon is naturally a deep red color, and you can literally see the oils in it.  Atlantic salmon is literally injected with pink dye to make it look more appetizing.  Yuck. 

Fresh is better, but I don't have any problem with frozen fish, personally.  I buy a lot of wild caught, Alaskan salmon every year, when Costco sells it for under $8/lbs and freeze a bunch for winter.  It's still really good.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Salmon is always a good option, farmed or not, as far as nutritional content.
> 
> For a close second, I'd say tuna steaks.
> 
> A lot of people have inflammatory response to shellfish, whether they are aware or not.  Not to mention the salt content.  That's something to avoid.











						Fish Faceoff: Wild Salmon vs. Farmed Salmon
					

Debating the health benefits and risks




					health.clevelandclinic.org
				




No thank you!    Seriously, though, another issue with Atlantic/farmed salmon is it can range from kind of good for you to actively bad for you depending on what they feed the fish and how they care for the fish.  So, if you do eat Atlantic/farmed salmon, it's best to know where it came from and how it was raised.  Like other kinds of farmed meats, not all farms are the same.  

Plus, wild salmon just tastes so much better.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's pretty easy to get non farmed salmon near me, so your mileage may vary depending on your local options I guess.
> 
> Farmed salmon isn't "bad" nutritionally, although it is a little higher in (good) fat content and slightly less in mineral content.  Most if not all farmed salmon in the US has strict contamination control too, I know that is true for all the big salmon farming states.


Perhaps.  I'm not an ichthyologist (and didn't even play one on TV).  But I've done a fair bit of reading up on this.  Omega 3 oils abundant in wild salmon vs the omega 6 oils, which are more abundant in farmed salmon.  Omega 6 oils are not good for you, and are found in much higher concentrations in farmed salmon vs wild salmon.

Point is, yeah, I think depending on the farmed fish, it can actually be bad for you.


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## Instructor (Apr 6, 2022)

Steve said:


> Perhaps.  I'm not an ichthyologist (and didn't even play one on TV).  But I've done a fair bit of reading up on this.  Omega 3 oils abundant in wild salmon vs the omega 6 oils, which are more abundant in farmed salmon.  Omega 6 oils are not good for you, and are found in much higher concentrations in farmed salmon vs wild salmon.
> 
> Point is, yeah, I think depending on the farmed fish, it can actually be bad for you.


Agriculture (and aquaculture) in the United States is really messed up right now.  I think in 100 years they will look back at us eating all this pesticide, herbicide, steroids, hormones, and GMOs the same way we look at the Victorians consuming ammonia, arsenic, and lead in their products.


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## Instructor (Apr 6, 2022)

But then it kind of circles back to fasting. Because one of the many brilliant aspects of fasting is autophagy.  It functions to eliminate many toxins from the body and especially damaged or senescent cellular components.


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 6, 2022)

Steve said:


> Perhaps.  I'm not an ichthyologist (and didn't even play one on TV).  But I've done a fair bit of reading up on this.  Omega 3 oils abundant in wild salmon vs the omega 6 oils, which are more abundant in farmed salmon.  Omega 6 oils are not good for you, and are found in much higher concentrations in farmed salmon vs wild salmon.
> 
> Point is, yeah, I think depending on the farmed fish, it can actually be bad for you.


Well then we're all in trouble, about half of all fish is farmed and it'll be most in about 20 years.  Wild farming had been a dying industry for a while now.

The risks of farmed salmon are kind of outweighed by the benefits of salmon in general ASSUMING it's not poisoned with bacteria or something worse.

But I see your point.  Food safety matters, you should know your sources.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Well then we're all in trouble, about half of all fish is farmed and it'll be most in about 20 years.  Wild farming had been a dying industry for a while now.
> 
> The risks of farmed salmon are kind of outweighed by the benefits of salmon in general ASSUMING it's not poisoned with bacteria or something worse.
> 
> But I see your point.  Food safety matters, you should know your sources.


If it becomes a choice between eating farmed salmon or no salmon, I'll do without.  Plenty of other fish in the sea, literally and figuratively.


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## Instructor (Apr 6, 2022)

Thank you everyone for the words of encouragement, information, and for your posts which have been universally supportive.  If any of you are interested in trying fasting yourself but it just seems impossible I can tell you how I got from impossible to doing it routinely successfully.

The first thing you need to realize is fasting is not starving.  You will hear someone say "It's 11:00 and I'm starving," and they just ate a few hours ago.  All that feeling means is that you customarily eat around that time and your body is saying hey, it's time.  But *you are the master of your body, it is not the master of you* and you can train it to say hey, it's time, just once a day.  Ever wonder how dogs know precisely when it is feeding time?  The same biological process happens within them.

Even a trim healthy person has plenty of fat reserves and could survive for over a month without eating a single calorie.  The trouble is the modern western diet has us eating a LOT of carbohydrates.  Unless you are on Keto or at least a low carb diet your body has optimized itself to use carbs as fuel not fat.  It takes a while to become fat adapted.  As far as I've come I still struggle with this.

Most of the "hunger" feelings aren't true hunger and you are in no danger of starving.  That "hunger" feeling is more akin to chemical addiction than true hunger.  What you are having are cravings for junk your body doesn't need and that is no different than any other addict.

The way I got to the point I am at is this:

First only eat three meals a day, no snacks, and no cheating.

Once you can reliably do that with no cravings or discomfort then eat only two meals a day, no snacks.

Once you can reliably do that comfortably, then gradually move the two meals closer together.  Instead of eating meal 2 and meal 3, 5 hours apart eat them 4 hours apart, then 3, then two, etc.

Your goal is to have one meal a day, which means only one insulin spike a day.  If you get this far, congratulations you mastered your body.

I'll warn you, this takes more self discipline than anything martial arts will ask of you, but you can do it and the benefits are massive.


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## Gyakuto (Apr 12, 2022)

At Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, U.K. they’ve been trialling fasting (four days at a time of virtually nothing to eat if memory serves) with chemotherapy for breast cancer to _reduce_ the somatic symptoms of the chemo with great effect - reduced hairloss, reduced gastrointestinal effects, less nausea. This makes sense because fasting pushes ones cells into ‘quiescence‘ where they reversibly exit the cell cycle. Chemotherapy damages and kills rapidly dividing cells (which is what cancers are essentially) but so are hair follicles, the lining of the gastrointestinal tract etc and that’s why they are also negatively affected by the poisons that are chemotherapy drugs. But fasting ‘puts them to sleep’ and the chemo affects them less! Great, isn’t it?


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## Unkogami (Apr 12, 2022)

No rice, no pasta, no bread, no potatoes, no beans, no sugar, and nothing to eat after 5pm - ever.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Every now and then I'll do a week of nothing but fish, brown rice, and water. Amazing results


I was on a similar diet all throughout my late twenties during my training peak (It was part of our dojo black belt culture fostered by our sensei.) Yin/Yang balance and macrobiotic diet served as the base.  Authentic ginseng tea, seaweed, sesame butter, miso and weekly sushi (my fatty fish) from what I believe was the first sushi bar in the USA (on Pacific Coast Hwy in Malibu Beach) were also staples.  The results were amazing for me as well - great endurance.  I wish I had the self-discipline to return to that Spartan path, but, alas, I enjoy my vices too much now in my waning years.


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## Unkogami (Apr 13, 2022)

I don't think you can call it a "fast" unless there are at least 24 hours without food of any kind.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 13, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I don't think you can call it a "fast" unless there are at least 24 hours without food of any kind.


Intermittent fasting is a specific type(s) of fasting, one of which is where you don't eat for 16 hours, then can for the next 8 and repeat. In general, most definitions of fast consider anything intentional above 12 hours a fast. Per WebMD "A fast usually lasts from 12 to 24 hours, but some types continue for days at a time."


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## Unkogami (Apr 13, 2022)

If it's not at least a full day, it's not a fast. It's just "being a little hungry."


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 13, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I don't think you can call it a "fast" unless there are at least 24 hours without food of any kind.


Ummmm... most people eat breakfast. You know... break your fast.


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## seasoned (Apr 13, 2022)

Google* "Fasting and stem cell regeneration".* Depending on what you are trying to accomplish, weight loss or real healing it takes days not hours.

Real healing involving stem cell regeneration requires a 24 - 48 hour fast.....


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 13, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> If it's not at least a full day, it's not a fast. It's just "being a little hungry."


I don't think you read what I wrote...


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## Unkogami (Apr 14, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Ummmm... most people eat breakfast. You know... break your fast.


Semantics? Really?


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## Unkogami (Apr 14, 2022)

It should also be noted that while fasting you need to keep a close eye on your blood sugar.


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## seasoned (Apr 14, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> It should also be noted that while fasting you need to keep a close eye on your blood sugar.


My understanding is while fasting our body in order to maintain an energy level will deplete glucose first, then move on to fat, and finely after a prolong fast will feed off of muscle..... I know this is simplified, any thoughts?


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 14, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Semantics? Really?


My mama told me that if you don't know what a word means, you shouldn't use it. Your definition of "fast", in case it's not glaringly obvious, is wrong.


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## Unkogami (Apr 14, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> My mama told me that if you don't know what a word means, you shouldn't use it. Your definition of "fast", in case it's not glaringly obvious, is wrong.


You go ahead and feel free to believe what you want. It seems very important to you.


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 15, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I don't think you can call it a "fast" unless there are at least 24 hours without food of any kind.


That's not healthy.


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## MetalBoar (Apr 15, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> If it's not at least a full day, it's not a fast. It's just "being a little hungry."


How long it takes depends on the markers you're looking at, how much glycogen you've got stored in your liver, and how active you are during the fasted period.  12 hours can be enough to enter a fasted state and 24 may too short, depending on the individual. 

This isn't the best article I've seen but it's got a decent summary:

Flipping the Metabolic Switch: Understanding and Applying Health Benefits of Fasting



Oily Dragon said:


> That's not healthy.



Actually it's very healthy and is one of the only things (mostly) proven to extend lifespan and healthspan, assuming you don't have any medical contraindications or take it to the extremes - several weeks+ without eating (see article above).


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## Unkogami (Apr 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> That's not healthy.


Why not?


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 15, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Why not?


There are actually a lot of risks associated with not consuming food, and it doesn't have to be weeks.  

Daily food consumption is part of the natural cycle.  Not eating for a day is probably fine.  Beyond 24 hours, caution is warranted.  Blood sugar can plummet, dehydration can set in, cortisol levels can spike, sleep can be disrupted, and migraine headaches can set in.  

One of the worst things I've experienced from a total food fast (3 days) was intense stomach acid.  Without anything to digest, acid levels can get really high and cause vomiting, which also leads to things like dehydration.  

So I'd caution saying it's "proven" to improve health and lengthen life.  Depending on the individual, there are a range of issues that can crop up.  Fasting from certain things (sugar, alcohol, fried food) is probably a lot safer than not eating anything for days.  Avoiding food entirely is considered an extreme diet.

 Not to mention, most people fast to lose weight, and it's just not an effective way of doing that.


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 15, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> , assuming you don't have any medical contraindications or take it to the extremes - several weeks+ without eating (see article above).


There are a few other assumptions to factor in.  Your body is designed to take in food daily, and I'm not a big fan of "body hacking", or other extreme diets and fads.

I've experienced some of these negative effects myself, which is why I'll never try fasting longer than 24 hours ever again.

I'm more in favor of selective fasting, which is very good for health.  Just avoiding sugar and table salt for a couple days has huge benefits.

Compared to a single episode of hypoglycemia, which is a dangerous condition that's not difficult to trigger even in normal people.


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## Gyakuto (Apr 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There are actually a lot of risks associated with not consuming food, and it doesn't have to be weeks.
> 
> Daily food consumption is part of the natural cycle.  Not eating for a day is probably fine.  Beyond 24 hours, caution is warranted.  Blood sugar can plummet, dehydration can set in, cortisol levels can spike, sleep can be disrupted, and migraine headaches can set in.
> 
> ...











						Can we live longer by eating less? A review of caloric restriction and longevity
					

Caloric restriction, decreasing caloric intake by 20–30%, was first shown to extend life in rats nearly 80 years ago. Since that time, limiting food i…




					www.sciencedirect.com
				












						Toward a unified theory of caloric restriction and longevity regulation
					

The diet known as calorie restriction (CR) is the most reproducible way to extend the lifespan of mammals. Many of the early hypotheses to explain thi…




					www.sciencedirect.com
				






			https://nyaspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1749-6632.2001.tb05633.x
		










						What are the roles of calorie restriction and diet quality in promoting healthy longevity?
					

Epidemiological and experimental data indicate that diet plays a central role in the pathogenesis of many age-associated chronic diseases, and in the …




					www.sciencedirect.com


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 15, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Can we live longer by eating less? A review of caloric restriction and longevity
> 
> 
> Caloric restriction, decreasing caloric intake by 20–30%, was first shown to extend life in rats nearly 80 years ago. Since that time, limiting food i…
> ...


I'm all for calorie restriction, sure.

Total nutritional denial though?  A lot of people try diets and fasts when their blood and body chemistry would warn otherwise, no?

A lot of people run into issues just trying things like keto.  Then ketosis makes it real, and not necessarily better.

There are so many individual things to remove from a diet, to me removing all the good as well as bad daily nutritional intakes...baby is still in the bathwater...where are you getting your daily magnesium, vitamin b, calcium...


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## Gyakuto (Apr 15, 2022)

I’m a physiologist and was a medical doctor.

You have to think about the diet of our ancestors roaming the plains of Africa. They ate the occasional berry, starchy root maybe a grub or two for most of the time…very low calories and poor nutrition. They may’ve caught a bison (after days of stalking with jogging running and walking),  and _gorge_ on protein for several days, feasting like Roman senators at an orgy and then, it’s back to relative famine for weeks perhaps months on-end. Muggles think our body’s digestive systems and requirements are like a finely tuned F1 racing car engine and that require high quality ‘fuel’. This is false. We’re more like the furnace boilers you find in old New York apartment blocks (I’m getting this from ‘Rhoda’ and ‘Friends’ 🙂) that create heat and hot water by burning any old junk thrown into it…old chair legs, table tops etc. We’ve evolved to process anything we can get our hands on. Yes, ‘refined petrol’ is easier to deal with, but we _can_ process any old ****!

For an average American, occasionally fasting (<600kcal/24hrs) for 24-48 hrs (perhaps longer) will do no harm (unless they are on oral or injected hypoglycaemic agents) and they are well hydrated throughout the fasting period. If it feels bad, then eat. If you feel hungry, that’s normal.


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 15, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I’m a physiologist and was a medical doctor.
> 
> You have to think about the diet of our ancestors roaming the plains of Africa. They ate the occasional berry, starchy root maybe a grub or two for most of the time…very low calories and poor nutrition. They may’ve caught a bison (after days of stalking with jogging running and walking),  and _gorge_ on protein for several days, feasting like Roman senators at an orgy and then, it’s back to relative famine for weeks perhaps months on-end. Muggles think our body’s digestive systems and requirements are like a finely tuned F1 racing car engine and that require high quality ‘fuel’. This is false. We’re more like the furnace boilers you find in old New York apartment blocks (I’m getting this from ‘Rhoda’ and ‘Friends’ 🙂) that create heat and hot water by burning any old junk thrown into it…old chair legs, table tops etc. We’ve evolved to process anything we can get our hands on. Yes, ‘refined petrol’ is easier to deal with, but we _can_ process any old ****!
> 
> For an average American, occasionally fasting (<600kcal/24hrs) for 24-48 hrs (perhaps longer) will do no harm (unless they are on oral or injected hypoglycaemic agents) and they are well hydrated throughout the fasting period. If it feels bad, then eat. If you feel hungry, that’s normal.


So a day or two is ok for most people, and water is life.

That makes a lot of sense.

And you'd also say that this advice is for people who normally get their RDA of various stuff and aren't deficient anywhere?

A lot of people are deficient in heart healthy vitamins and minerals, and we've got a few people here with heart problems, so I was curious if you'd recommend supplements during fasting?  Would that be "cheating"?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 15, 2022)

Times like these I really miss the informative button.


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## Gyakuto (Apr 15, 2022)

I think few American’s diets give them the RDA of everything unless they’re really careful about it. I’m amazed at how many people are deficient in Vit D for example! Indoor lifestyles, a lack of green leafy vegetables etc. A few days without food isn’t going to deplete ones vitamins etc. If you exclusively eat burgers, pizzas, chips (french fries)…with cheese, then you're in trouble (I’m hungry now).

I think the mantra is ‘be sensible’. Eat a balanced diet, exercise  for weeks, then try fasting for 12hrs, then 14hrs and gradually increase the duration until you’re able to levitate and slightly glow in dim light!

By-the-way, do you from where some of the data for RDA of vitamins etc originally came? Who, in the early 20th Century, were fine about differentially starving humans? 😳 Truly awful, but those data help people now.

We had a famous scientist in the U.K. called Magnus Pike, who fulfilled all the stereotypes of the avuncular mad scientist-do look him up. During WW2 he was charged with working out the optimal nutrition for  people as part the war effort. He claimed that when working out the iron content of spinach, his team got the decimal point in the wrong place and it was falsely claimed to have ten times as much iron as it actually does! 😂 Thus, Popeye was strong in-spite of eating spinach!

And I’m sure you know the story of carrots being ‘good for night vision‘ was to hide the fact, that the allied forces had RADAR! 😂🤣


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## Unkogami (Apr 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There are actually a lot of risks associated with not consuming food, and it doesn't have to be weeks.
> 
> Daily food consumption is part of the natural cycle.  Not eating for a day is probably fine.  Beyond 24 hours, caution is warranted.  Blood sugar can plummet, dehydration can set in, cortisol levels can spike, sleep can be disrupted, and migraine headaches can set in.
> 
> ...


You might want to check some of your information there.


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 16, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> You might want to check some of your information there.


Which part?  It all checks out, and our resident doctor just concurred.  

What do you not concur with?


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## Unkogami (Apr 16, 2022)

Intermittent Fasting: What is it, and how does it work?
					

Intermittent fasting involves switching between fasting and eating on a regular schedule. This type of fasting could manage your weight or even some forms of disease through these safe practices.




					www.hopkinsmedicine.org


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 16, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> You might want to check some of your information there.


OK, let's look at what he said....


Oily Dragon said:


> There are actually a lot of risks associated with not consuming food, and it doesn't have to be weeks.


This is factually correct.


Oily Dragon said:


> Daily food consumption is part of the natural cycle.  Not eating for a day is probably fine.  Beyond 24 hours, caution is warranted.  Blood sugar can plummet, dehydration can set in, cortisol levels can spike, sleep can be disrupted, and migraine headaches can set in.


Also factually correct. 


Oily Dragon said:


> One of the worst things I've experienced from a total food fast (3 days) was intense stomach acid.  Without anything to digest, acid levels can get really high and cause vomiting, which also leads to things like dehydration.


That's his own personal experience, so unless you're claiming he's lying about it, it has to be considered correct.


Oily Dragon said:


> So I'd caution saying it's "proven" to improve health and lengthen life.  Depending on the individual, there are a range of issues that can crop up.  Fasting from certain things (sugar, alcohol, fried food) is probably a lot safer than not eating anything for days.  Avoiding food entirely is considered an extreme diet.


Also correct. Any diet that says "completely stop xxxx" is unlikely to be sustainable.


Oily Dragon said:


> Not to mention, most people fast to lose weight, and it's just not an effective way of doing that.


Also true. Fasting is a terrible way to lose weight. 
What part of his post do you object to?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 16, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Intermittent Fasting: What is it, and how does it work?
> 
> 
> Intermittent fasting involves switching between fasting and eating on a regular schedule. This type of fasting could manage your weight or even some forms of disease through these safe practices.
> ...


O.

That part! 

There's a big difference between _intermittent fasting_ and _starvation_.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 16, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Intermittent Fasting: What is it, and how does it work?
> 
> 
> Intermittent fasting involves switching between fasting and eating on a regular schedule. This type of fasting could manage your weight or even some forms of disease through these safe practices.
> ...


Did you actually read this? Because it doesn't seem to support your position. It advocates periods of fasting that are always less than 24 hours. No more than 16 hours. Which, according to you, isn't even fasting. It also specifically argues AGAINST fasting for periods of 24 hours or more, and points out the dangers of doing so.


----------



## Instructor (Apr 18, 2022)

"Let food be your medicine, and medicine be your food" Hippocrates

I've been on vacation for a week and deliberately left my computer at home; although I did cheat and pop into Martial Talk once or twice with my cell phone.  I am not surprised by the turn this thread took.  You see these same conversations taking place just about anywhere fasting is discussed.

In my life, intermittent fasting and occasional prolonged fasting have been a complete game changer.  I am healthier, happier, more balanced, and more in control of my urges and cravings.  While I haven't really lost massive amounts of weight (about 30 pounds total) my weight is stable and hasn't risen from year to year like it was before fasting.

I've also experienced some of the negative side effects mentioned like acid reflux. I was diagnosed with Gastroesophageal Reflux Disease (GERD) a long time before I ever tried fasting. It's a condition I picked up in the service.

While I was at sea I didn't have much control over what was available to eat or when I was allowed to eat.  Combine that with a high stress job on a ship that is constantly rolling and it gave me heartburn and reflux that persisted long after I returned to land. I used to take medications for this but the meds were stripping me of magnesium and I started to experience hair loss.  Before I started fasting I gave up the meds and radically changed my diet to include more leafy greens and much less processed food.  I also purchased a bed that I can tilt/incline. These two lifestyle changes alone fixed the GERD.

When I started fasting I did occasionally experience reflux, especially during periods of heightened stress.  But doing the things to relieve that stress, such as exercise, breathing, meditating, etc. helped mitigate it. Now that I fast routinely I seldom experience any kind of negative symptoms like reflux.

Personally I think the trouble with living in the first world is we think we should always be completely comfortable, sated, and happy.  If at any time we are the slightest bit hungry, or unhappy, or even uncomfortable, well they have a pill for that.  We as a people grow steadily more reliant on chemicals and medications.

But the science is showing more and more that occasionally it is healthier to restrict caloric intake and to be a little bit colder or hotter than you might otherwise choose to be.  Every species that has been tested lived longer with caloric restriction.  I realize that doesn't necessarily mean fasting but it is one way to get there.



			https://www.truenorthhealthfoundation.org/sites/default/files/docs/magazine_article/Safety%2C%20Health%20and%20Well-Being%20During%20Periodic%20Fasting.pdf
		




			https://www.scielo.br/j/clin/a/fHZxg8ZbRY59Fnwy7sgcDjP/?format=pdf


----------



## Gyakuto (Apr 18, 2022)

In the West, especially the USA and U.K., food habits are driven by the big food industries who want to push sugar and carbohydrate rich food and meat down our throats. 

There was an interesting programme about Kellog on television last night and it was interesting to see how it’s CEO, senior managers and it’s nutritionists skilfully evaded the question of high sugar-content in it’s foods. “We’ve reduced it by 40%” but wouldn’t talk about _actual_ amounts per serving in their cereals. 40% of a bucket-load of sugar is still over half a bucket-load. Plus the carb-rich cereals are broken down to simple sugars by the gut. 

We probably need to reduce our total food consumption by a half (my speculation) with occasional total abstinence…🤔  ice baths, rub-downs with hessian cloths and early nights after reading the spiritual/science book of our choice 😉


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 18, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> 40% of a bucket-load of sugar is still over half a bucket-load.


Ummmm.... maybe a math tutor is in order?  🤣


----------



## chiquest (Apr 19, 2022)

The benefit from intermittent fasting is the activation of autophagy ("self-devouring" or "self-eating"), in which the healthy cells eliminate worn-out or dying cells. When combined with mTOR (which promotes cellular growth), the result can be optimum health if there is a proper balance of the two. Anthropologist and fitness guru, Siim Land, designed a detailed intermittent fasting regime that achieves that balance. He fasts everyday for 20-22 hours followed by strength training, then eats one meal high in protein and vegetables in a two hour eating window before returning to a fasted state. He has an impressive, ripped muscular physique, so it seems to be working for him. He details his procedure on his website, How to Balance Autophagy and mTOR for Longevity and Muscle Growth - Siim Land Blog. There are other methods of intermittent fasting that also strive to optimize health which are different than Siim Land's, but 16 hours is the recommended minimum length for fasting in most of the methods. Also, the fasting includes the sleep cycle.


----------



## Instructor (Apr 19, 2022)

chiquest said:


> The benefit from intermittent fasting is the activation of autophagy ("self-devouring" or "self-eating"), in which the healthy cells eliminate worn-out or dying cells. When combined with mTOR (which promotes cellular growth), the result can be optimum health if there is a proper balance of the two. Anthropologist and fitness guru, Siim Land, designed a detailed intermittent fasting regime that achieves that balance. He fasts everyday for 20-22 hours followed by strength training, then eats one meal high in protein and vegetables in a two hour eating window before returning to a fasted state. He has an impressive, ripped muscular physique, so it seems to be working for him. He details his procedure on his website, How to Balance Autophagy and mTOR for Longevity and Muscle Growth - Siim Land Blog. There are other methods of intermittent fasting that also strive to optimize health which are different than Siim Land's, but 16 hours is the recommended minimum length for fasting in most of the methods. Also, the fasting includes the sleep cycle.


Very informative link.  I've read a lot about all of the facets of the epigenetic life extension and not ashamed to say I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it.  Noticed you joined MT way back in 09, welcome back.


----------



## chiquest (Apr 19, 2022)

I don't contribute as much as I could, but have always read the posts.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 19, 2022)

chiquest said:


> The benefit from intermittent fasting is the activation of autophagy ("self-devouring" or "self-eating"), in which the healthy cells eliminate worn-out or dying cells. When combined with mTOR (which promotes cellular growth), the result can be optimum health if there is a proper balance of the two. Anthropologist and fitness guru, Siim Land, designed a detailed intermittent fasting regime that achieves that balance. He fasts everyday for 20-22 hours followed by strength training, then eats one meal high in protein and vegetables in a two hour eating window before returning to a fasted state. He has an impressive, ripped muscular physique, so it seems to be working for him. He details his procedure on his website, How to Balance Autophagy and mTOR for Longevity and Muscle Growth - Siim Land Blog. There are other methods of intermittent fasting that also strive to optimize health which are different than Siim Land's, but 16 hours is the recommended minimum length for fasting in most of the methods. Also, the fasting includes the sleep cycle.


I think the problem with any example of how fasting works is that human bodies are incredibly variable. One person may get best results with this kind of extreme intermittent fasting (this being about the largest gap you can get with daily fasting), while another person's body may have a bad reaction to 12-hour gaps (in my 20's, that big a gap was a real problem).

Have you found any source that guides on how to find a fasting regimen that works for an individual, as opposed to simply instructing on how to follow a specific regimen?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 19, 2022)

While I'm thinking of it, has anyone looked into research studies of different intermittent fasting approaches with different populations? I haven't ever gotten around to looking for papers (my "want to research" list is always longer than I'll ever have time to complete), so I'm hoping someone already found some papers worth looking at.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 19, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think the problem with any example of how fasting works is that human bodies are incredibly variable. One person may get best results with this kind of extreme intermittent fasting (this being about the largest gap you can get with daily fasting), while another person's body may have a bad reaction to 12-hour gaps (in my 20's, that big a gap was a real problem).
> 
> Have you found any source that guides on how to find a fasting regimen that works for an individual, as opposed to simply instructing on how to follow a specific regimen?


When I was in my 20s I would go 4-5 days with no food or water while training 8 + hours a day, working 6-8 hours a day and taking a double load of classes. Yeah, I'm paying the price now.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 19, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> When I was in my 20s I would go 4-5 days with no food or water while training 8 + hours a day, working 6-8 hours a day and taking a double load of classes. Yeah, I'm paying the price now.


If I'd gone a full day without food back then, I'd have been unable to function. I'd get light-headed if I didn't eat regularly. And by "regularly", I mean way more often than I should have needed. At 30, I ate everything I could get my hands on (ice cream covered with half-and-half was a common dessert for me), and had single-digit body fat. It was fun being able to eat like that, but not fun _needing_ to eat like that.


----------



## punisher73 (Apr 20, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> If it's not at least a full day, it's not a fast. It's just "being a little hungry."


As Dirty Dog pointed out, we literally call the first meal of the day "break fast" because you are breaking your fast.  It's not semantics.

There are various types of fasts and almost all major religions incorporate them.

Just a couple types of the top of my head from various religions.
1) Sunrise until sundown (Ramadan, Ash Wednesday use this type)
2) Full day (24 hours or more)
3) Multiple day (3, 7, 21 days)

Many doctors define "fasting" for medical procedures as a 12 hour period.

Just because you define it differently, doesn't mean that there aren't other accepted definitions and methods of fasting.


----------



## Instructor (Apr 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> If I'd gone a full day without food back then, I'd have been unable to function. I'd get light-headed if I didn't eat regularly. And by "regularly", I mean way more often than I should have needed. At 30, I ate everything I could get my hands on (ice cream covered with half-and-half was a common dessert for me), and had single-digit body fat. It was fun being able to eat like that, but not fun _needing_ to eat like that.


I'm no doctor, just a dumb Hapkido teacher, but if you are eating a lot of carbs routinely like ice cream (and hey when you are young and full of piss and vinegar why not) then your blood chemistry is spiked constantly with insulin because your body is just trying to keep you alive.  Your body gets adapted to that quick easy sugar as food and is happy to convert it to fat but seldom needs to convert the fat back into glucose for cellular function.  Thus when you cut the sugar off you feel like crap because you aren't adapted to using fat for fuel.

Just so you know, during a fast you won't always feel very good.  Autophagy in particular can give you headaches, nausea, and other not fun feelings. If your body encapsulated a toxin ten years ago (and it probably made you feel like crap then) and then autophagy opens that encapsulated toxin up again to get rid of it, you get to experience the toxin all over again.


----------



## Instructor (Apr 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think the problem with any example of how fasting works is that human bodies are incredibly variable. One person may get best results with this kind of extreme intermittent fasting (this being about the largest gap you can get with daily fasting), while another person's body may have a bad reaction to 12-hour gaps (in my 20's, that big a gap was a real problem).
> 
> Have you found any source that guides on how to find a fasting regimen that works for an individual, as opposed to simply instructing on how to follow a specific regimen?


Dr. Pelz talks about it on YouTube occasionally and she usually backs up her position with studies.  I don't have what you are looking for handy but I'll keep an eye out for it.  One thing she recommends is to vary your fast and vary your diet often.  If you just do OMAD/Keto for example or 2MAD/Vegan or something your metabolism adapts to it and your gains diminish.  By switching things up routinely you can keep it guessing, it seems to help.  So you could do a month OMAD/Paleo, a month 2MAD/Mediterranean, a month normal three meals a day/keto, a month OMAD/carnivore, and etc.

One upside to trying all these different things is that you are essentially experimenting on yourself and you can begin to intuit what works well for you and what doesn't.


----------



## Instructor (Apr 20, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> When I was in my 20s I would go 4-5 days with no food or water while training 8 + hours a day, working 6-8 hours a day and taking a double load of classes. Yeah, I'm paying the price now.


That seems like you have taken it to an extreme level, I'm not sure I could do that.  What was the result?


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 20, 2022)

punisher73 said:


> As Dirty Dog pointed out, we literally call the first meal of the day "break fast" because you are breaking your fast.  It's not semantics.
> 
> ...


By definition, that's semantics.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 20, 2022)

Instructor said:


> That seems like you have taken it to an extreme level, I'm not sure I could do that.  What was the result?


NCAA Div.1 New England wrestling champion at my weight class. Ranked 13th in the nation. Later, many kidney stones (a couple of which had to be surgically removed), unpredictably fluctuating metabolism, and possibly type II diabetes.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 20, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> NCAA Div.1 New England wrestling champion at my weight class. Ranked 13th in the nation. Later, many kidney stones (a couple of which had to be surgically removed), unpredictably fluctuating metabolism, and possibly type II diabetes.


Imagine how good you could have been if you had been healthy.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> If I'd gone a full day without food back then, I'd have been unable to function. I'd get light-headed if I didn't eat regularly. ....


Light headed? I passed out in the sauna on several occasions.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 20, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> By definition, that's semantics.


Didn't this start with your semantics over the meaning of the word fast?


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 20, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Imagine how good you could have been if you had been healthy.


I was as healthy as an Olympic athlete. As fast as a D1 track athlete, as strong as a powerlifter. If I had been one or two weight classes heavier I would not have achieved what I did. Was it worth the later consequences? Dunno. 19 year old me would have physically attacked me for even asking the question.


----------



## punisher73 (Apr 20, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> By definition, that's semantics.


I should have said, "just semantics".

The phrase "just semantics"  is used most often as a shorthand way to insinuate someone has argued something trivial or unimportant.  In this, case you are arguing the definition of the word "fast" and its meaning and trying to define it in your own way.  You were dismissive to the actual definitions of the word.  So, its not just semantics or trivial, it is the crux of the whole matter.

Which is interesting that you ignored the whole rest of the post and nitpicked on the fact that I left out "just" and didn't address all the facts supporting your opinion was incorrect on the definition of "fast".


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2022)

Instructor said:


> I'm no doctor, just a dumb Hapkido teacher, but if you are eating a lot of carbs routinely like ice cream (and hey when you are young and full of piss and vinegar why not) then your blood chemistry is spiked constantly with insulin because your body is just trying to keep you alive.  Your body gets adapted to that quick easy sugar as food and is happy to convert it to fat but seldom needs to convert the fat back into glucose for cellular function.  Thus when you cut the sugar off you feel like crap because you aren't adapted to using fat for fuel.
> 
> Just so you know, during a fast you won't always feel very good.  Autophagy in particular can give you headaches, nausea, and other not fun feelings. If your body encapsulated a toxin ten years ago (and it probably made you feel like crap then) and then autophagy opens that encapsulated toxin up again to get rid of it, you get to experience the toxin all over again.


During the day, I ate a pretty high-protein diet (it was high in other stuff, as well - just a crapton of food in a marginally good diet). The ice cream was an example of how many calories I was having to consume.

My point was that I doubt I could have gotten to autophagy back then. I couldn't go without food long enough.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Light headed? I passed out in the sauna on several occasions.


Yeah, that's the kind of thing. I learned to recognize the warning signs and stop doing whatever I was up to, and just find some food.


----------



## Instructor (Apr 21, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> NCAA Div.1 New England wrestling champion at my weight class. Ranked 13th in the nation. Later, many kidney stones (a couple of which had to be surgically removed), unpredictably fluctuating metabolism, and possibly type II diabetes.


One of my younger students is in high school wrestling.  He was a little dynamo, a powerhouse.  Now he has given wrestling up for a number of health issues.  I wonder if high school wrestling culture is to blame?


----------



## Instructor (Apr 21, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> During the day, I ate a pretty high-protein diet (it was high in other stuff, as well - just a crapton of food in a marginally good diet). The ice cream was an example of how many calories I was having to consume.
> 
> My point was that I doubt I could have gotten to autophagy back then. I couldn't go without food long enough.


More advanced fasters track their blood glucose levels and ketones, also muscle mass and body fat percentage.  I haven't taken things that far.  I'm more of a moderation type of fellow.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2022)

Instructor said:


> More advanced fasters track their blood glucose levels and ketones, also muscle mass and body fat percentage.  I haven't taken things that far.  I'm more of a moderation type of fellow.


For me, if I'd tracked my glucose levels (never mind the fasting), I'd probably have done better. I suspect I was hypoglycemic at those times (a suspicion founded on a tiny bit of knowledge and no significant evidence).


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 21, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Yeah, that's the kind of thing. I learned to recognize the warning signs and stop doing whatever I was up to, and just find some food.


Wasn't an option.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 21, 2022)

Instructor said:


> One of my younger students is in high school wrestling.  He was a little dynamo, a powerhouse.  Now he has given wrestling up for a number of health issues.  I wonder if high school wrestling culture is to blame?


It's not for the faint of heart.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 21, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> It's not for the faint of heart.


Having health issues/stopping something to preserve your health doesn't mean you're faint of heart.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 21, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Having health issues/stopping something to preserve your health doesn't mean you're faint of heart.


If you say so........


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Wasn't an option.


I was just speaking to what it took in my case.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> If you say so........


I think pretty much anyone taking a reasonable view says so.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 21, 2022)

Wrestler, judoka, and defensive tackle walk into a bar.

Judo guy orders a warm sake, neat.  Football dude, a mezcal on the rocks.  Wrestler orders a cranberry juice and tonic.

All three get their drinks and turn to watch the house band.  A classy, mature looking woman slinks up to them and begins sizing them up.

"What do you do", she asks the judoka.  "Me?  Well I try to exert maximum force with minimal effort".  She coos.

"How about you tall dark and handsome?" she questions the football player.  "I crush the runner".  Her eyes glow with desire.

"Well, young man?" she posits the wrestler.  "I dominate lesser men". She takes a look at his beverage and says "but you don't drink?".

He turns to her with a straight face, "No, you dumbass, I'm fasting", rolls his eyes and walks out of the bar.





__





						What is the Cranberry Juice Diet? (with pictures)
					

The cranberry juice diet is a method of eating that is heavily focused on drinking cranberry juice. The most extreme version of...




					www.wise-geek.com


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 21, 2022)

Get it?  He's irritable from several days of the cranberry juice fasting.  Ta-da!


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 21, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think pretty much anyone taking a reasonable view says so.


Everyone thinks that about their own point of view.

Different generations, I guess.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Get it?  He's irritable from several days of the cranberry juice fasting.  Ta-da!


Cranberry juice causes kidney stones. Repeated dehydration causes kidney stones. Bad combo. The wrestler would have nothing in season, 30-40 beers off season.


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 21, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Cranberry juice causes kidney stones.


According to whom?

If you'd said "Red Bull" or an energy drink, maybe.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 22, 2022)

There have been a lot of claims made in this thread. Some pretty reasonable. Some a bit sketchy. And some flat out ridiculous. 
Intermittent fasting, with fasts up to 16 hours, have been shown to have some potential benefits.
Can you stop eating for a week? Sure, most people can. But it's extremely unhealthy.
Can you stop drinking for a week? No. You cannot. It's ridiculous to even consider. Most people can survive 2-3 days without drinking, but they are going to be miserable. 4-5 days without water, while working out 8 hours a day? Nope. That's not happening. If you're still alive 5 days in, you're going to be in the ICU with multiple organ failure.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> There have been a lot of claims made in this thread. Some pretty reasonable. Some a bit sketchy. And some flat out ridiculous.
> Intermittent fasting, with fasts up to 16 hours, have been shown to have some potential benefits.
> Can you stop eating for a week? Sure, most people can. But it's extremely unhealthy.
> Can you stop drinking for a week? No. You cannot. It's ridiculous to even consider. Most people can survive 2-3 days without drinking, but they are going to be miserable. 4-5 days without water, while working out 8 hours a day? Nope. That's not happening. If you're still alive 5 days in, you're going to be in the ICU with multiple organ failure.


You were never 19 years old? Different times, different generations, I guess.


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## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> According to whom?
> 
> If you'd said "Red Bull" or an energy drink, maybe.


" Cranberry contains high amounts of oxalate, which causes kidney stones."










						5 Myths About Kidney Stones: Robert J Cornell, MD, PA: Urologist
					

If you’ve ever gotten a kidney stone you know that it’s not like a nagging cough, it is quite painful and in extreme cases can even require surgery to corre




					www.urosurgeryhouston.com


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 22, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> " Cranberry contains high amounts of oxalate, which causes kidney stones."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Read that.  Cranberry juice doesn't cause the stones.  *Dehydration* does.

Cigarettes cause cancer.  That's a science fact.  Cranberry causing stones?  I don't think so.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Read that.  Cranberry juice doesn't cause the stones.  *Dehydration* does.
> 
> Cigarettes cause cancer.  That's a science fact.  Cranberry causing stones?  I don't think so.


Go talk to my urologist about it. Are you a urologist?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 22, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Go talk to my urologist about it. Are you a urologist?


Are you a doctor of some sort? If you feel that's needed to provide basic medical advice I must assume so...


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 22, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> You were never 19 years old? Different times, different generations, I guess.


Yes, I was. But because I was a 19 year old HUMAN, I didn't go 5 days without drinking anything while working out 8 hours a day.
You can tell I didn't, because I'm alive. And I can still pee.


Unkogami said:


> " Cranberry contains high amounts of oxalate, which causes kidney stones."


Poorly worded. A diet high in oxylate increases the chances of developing kidney stones.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Are you a doctor of some sort? If you feel that's needed to provide basic medical advice I must assume so...


I'm telling you what my urologist told me. I even provided a link to support the point.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yes, I was. But because I was a 19 year old HUMAN, I didn't go 5 days without drinking anything while working out 8 hours a day.
> You can tell I didn't, because I'm alive. And I can still pee.
> 
> ...


So am I and so can I. If you've lived a more sheltered life, good for you I guess.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 22, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> So am I and so can I. If you've lived a more sheltered life, good for you I guess.


You kind of remind me another person who used to post here. That person also made ridiculous claims. As I recall, he claimed to have gotten what, from his description, was a large flail chest. And that despite that injury (which he claimed someone reduced at the event) he continued fighting in a tournament.
Sort of like going without any intake at all for 5 days while working out 8+ hours a day. Never happened.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> .....
> Sort of like going without any intake at all for 5 days while working out 8+ hours a day. Never happened.



Believe whatever you want. Not sure why this particular reality is making you so defensive, but that's up to you. It was not particularly unusual among the highly competitive back in my day and days before that. Not every young man was as fragile and frightened as today's youth.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Believe whatever you want. Not sure why this particular reality is making you so defensive, but that's up to you. It was not particularly unusual among the highly competitive back in my day and days before that. Not every young man was as fragile and frightened as today's youth.


Because it defies possibility.


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 22, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Go talk to my urologist about it. Are you a urologist?


I don't need to study urology to know what you said isn't true.  Nothing in the medical literature claims cranberry juice causes any illness.

But if it does...let's pretend for a second...where are the warning labels on cranberry juice?  Think of the young children just filling up their poor bodies with vitamin C and other antioxidants!!

Now if you'd said "grapefruit juice", I'm all for warning labels on that stuff.  Toxic!  There are literally a million medications and supplements that Should Not Ever be taken with grapefruit.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Because it defies possibility.


Clearly it does not, because here I am.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I don't need to study urology to know what you said isn't true.  ...


I don't know what to tell you, my urologist told me one thing and some faceless whoever on the internet says something else. I think I know who I'll trust. You are free to believe what you will with my best wishes.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 22, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I don't know what to tell you, my urologist told me one thing and some faceless whoever on the internet says something else. I think I know who I'll trust. You are free to believe what you will with my best wishes.


Whatever your urologist told you doesn't mean cranberry juice causes internal stones.

What does my face have to do with the relative safety of cranberry juice, compared to god-knows-what-else you've put in your body?  Or what you've neglected?

You don't drink enough water, do you?  I can always spot you, because I was you, once.  If you actually read all the dietary advice in this thread (yours, as well as the MD) you should come away with a strong desire to aqua-fy.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Whatever your urologist told you doesn't mean cranberry juice causes internal stones.
> ....


When an expert in the exact field tells me something, I tend to believe him over someone who is not anything like an expert in the field. Again, you are more than free to believe what you will. I'm really not bothered.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> ....
> 
> You don't drink enough water, do you? ...


I drink tons and tons (and tons) of water.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 22, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> When an expert in the exact field tells me something, I tend to believe him over someone who is not anything like an expert in the field. Again, you are more than free to believe what you will. I'm really not bothered.


Apparently you are bothered.

I've never had stones, and cranberry juice doesn't cause stones.  And I doubt your expert told you they did.

It's more likely he told YOU to lay off everything but water.  Right?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 22, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I drink tons and tons (and tons) of water.


You don't just drink it.  You eat it, breathe it, you think it, you dream about it. 

You are water.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Apparently you are bothered.
> ...


I'm really, really not.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I've never had stones, and cranberry juice doesn't cause stones.  And I doubt your expert told you they did.
> 
> ...


I have and he did. And for some reason this seems very important to you. Since he was the guy who cut me open and yanked a couple of them out of my kidney, he earned my trust in his professional knowledge.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You don't just drink it.  You eat it, breathe it, you think it, you dream about it.
> 
> You are water.


Thanks Bruce.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 22, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I'm really, really not.


Uh, yeah, you are.

You're the one with the stones, dude.

It's OK to say it hurts.  You know it does.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> ....
> 
> You're the one with the stones, dude.
> ....


So I've been told...


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> ....
> 
> It's OK to say it hurts.  You know it does.


I do know it does. You have no idea.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 22, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Thanks Bruce.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 22, 2022)

Unkogami said:


>


The need for water permeates this entire thread, doesn't it!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Clearly it does not, because here I am.


Yes, and I don't believe your claim.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> When an expert in the exact field tells me something, I tend to believe him over someone who is not anything like an expert in the field. Again, you are more than free to believe what you will. I'm really not bothered.


I suspect you misheard your urologist.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 23, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Yes, and I don't believe your claim.


Believe what you want. Doesn't change anything.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 23, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I suspect you misheard your urologist.


I am sure I didn't. Again, you are more than welcome to disbelieve everything I have ever done, said, heard, or otherwise experienced in my life. Enjoy.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 23, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Believe whatever you want. Not sure why this particular reality is making you so defensive, but that's up to you. It was not particularly unusual among the highly competitive back in my day and days before that. Not every young man was as fragile and frightened as today's youth.


Because BS is BS.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Believe whatever you want. Not sure why this particular reality is making you so defensive, but that's up to you. It was not particularly unusual among the highly competitive back in my day and days before that. Not every young man was as fragile and frightened as today's youth.


BTW, you seem to have confused several of us with "today's youth".

What you describe - had it been "not particularly unusual" - would have been the cause of the deaths of a large number of "highly competitive" people. Bodies don't work that way. Period.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 23, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Because BS is BS.
> View attachment 28365


You vastly overestimate your importance if you think I would bother to lie about anything to _you_. But keep on trolling me if it's important to you. I can take it.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 23, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> BTW, you seem to have confused several of us with "today's youth".
> 
> What you describe - had it been "not particularly unusual" - would have been the cause of the deaths of a large number of "highly competitive" people. Bodies don't work that way. Period.


During my college wrestling years I knew of several deaths per year due to extreme training/weight cutting. I didn't say it was healthy or wise, but it was done. I (foolishly) did it myself. Older guys told me it was even more prevalent and extreme in the generations before mine.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> During my college wrestling years I knew of several deaths per year due to extreme training/weight cutting. I didn't say it was healthy or wise, but it was done. I (foolishly) did it myself. Older guys told me it was even more prevalent and extreme in the generations before mine.


Again, what you described would kill everyone who did it, not just a few a year.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 23, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Again, what you described would kill everyone who did it, not just a few a year.


Sorry, but you are mistaken. I'm still here. I don't know how many times and how many different ways I can say it, but please feel free to believe what you want. Really.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Sorry, but you are mistaken. I'm still here. I don't know how many times and how many different ways I can say it, but please feel free to believe what you want. Really.


You miracle of toughness, you.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 23, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You miracle of toughness, you.


Again, I'm sorry if you've led a rather more sheltered life. No offense.


----------



## Flying Crane (Apr 23, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Ummmm.... maybe a math tutor is in order?  🤣


I believe what he was saying was, the reduction in sugar of 40%.  What remains is over half a bucket load, meaning 60% remains.  The wording wasn’t clear, but that is how I read it.  No math tutor required.  Just a bit of wordsmithing.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 23, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Believe whatever you want. Not sure why this particular reality is making you so defensive, but that's up to you. It was not particularly unusual among the highly competitive back in my day and days before that. Not every young man was as fragile and frightened as today's youth.


Out of curiosity, how often do you think the people that you're talking to you are? And how old are you? MIght help to know what you mean by "back in my day" to compare.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 23, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Sorry, but you are mistaken. I'm still here. I don't know how many times and how many different ways I can say it, but please feel free to believe what you want. Really.


This is essentially the same as saying "I don't know what to tell you, but I jumped off the empire state building and started flying. So I'm still around. Really." The same level of likelihood.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 24, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Out of curiosity, how often do you think the people that you're talking to you are? And how old are you? MIght help to know what you mean by "back in my day" to compare.


I don't know anything about the people posting but the words they post.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 24, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This is essentially the same as saying "I don't know what to tell you, but I jumped off the empire state building and started flying. So I'm still around. Really." The same level of likelihood.


This is getting a little weird. I just told you about my personal experience. I've said many times that you are free to believe whatever you want, that won't change reality. Why this bothers you so much is odd. It has become some kind of obsession for you. All I can say is that I have no reason to lie to you. Let's try this again: BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 24, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I don't know anything about the people posting but the words they post.


The reason I'm asking is because you're making a direct assumption that the people you're speaking with are from a later generation than you. And that's the cause of different experiences. So if you don't know they're from a later generation, why are you making that assumption?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 24, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> This is getting a little weird. I just told you about my personal experience. I've said many times that you are free to believe whatever you want, that won't change reality. Why this bothers you so much is odd. It has become some kind of obsession for you. All I can say is that I have no reason to lie to you. Let's try this again: BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT.


An obsession for me? This is probably the 5th time I've posted in a thread of 130 posts, and the first time I've said anythinf about your claim. I think you might be confusing multiple different people having issues with your claim as one person having issues with it multiple times.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 24, 2022)

You're all crazy people, didn't you know?  Why else would we log into MT daily, if not obsession with the circular logic of strange men.

Me, I'm still trying to invalidate the "DANGER: JUICE" hypothesis.  Until then, I'm avoiding anything naturally squeezed from fruit or berry.

And I'm on day 2 of my "No entrees, appetizers only" diet.  So far, no problems except lingering hunger.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 24, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I don't know anything about the people posting but the words they post.


No offense, but I know from your posting that you repeat yourself constantly, and aren't remotely on topic, like Milton from Office Space.

We're talking about fasting dude, you're muttering like you're gonna set the place on fire or put strychnine in the margaritas.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Apr 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> And I'm on day 2 of my "No entrees, appetizers only" diet.


We're on day 5 of this unappetizing diet of postings, devoid of nutrition.  I'm ready for a meaty steak.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> No offense, but I know from your posting that you repeat yourself constantly, and aren't remotely on topic,....


Do you have any examples to support this claim?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 24, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Do you have any examples to support this claim?


Yes.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Yes.


Ok, could you copy and paste at least one here.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 25, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Ok, could you copy and paste at least one here.


It's all already here.  I don't want to seem redundant.

It's already been indexed by Google, for the children.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 25, 2022)

Don't worry about being redundant. Post your evidence right here so we are all clear what we are talking about.


----------



## Steve (Apr 25, 2022)

I've lost track.  Are we looking for evidence that fasting is good for you, evidence that fasting is bad for you, evidence that water is essential for life, evidence that these threads are circular in general, or that someone is redundant in particular?  Or something else entirely?

Just trying to keep up.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 25, 2022)

I was asking for a quote supporting the accusation that I was not posting on topic and/or that I was lying about my own personal life experiences. Or we could stop this "Let's troll Unkotare" and get back to the point.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 25, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Don't worry about being redundant. Post your evidence right here so we are all clear what we are talking about.


You haven't discussed fasting in about at least 72 hours or more.  Are you fasting right now?

If we were trying to solve a hot homicide case, we'd have already failed in our collective mission.  

If your next comment is about fasting, and not the evils of cranberry juice, I'll respond.

If it's not, I might respond.


----------



## Instructor (Apr 26, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You haven't discussed fasting in about at least 72 hours or more.  Are you fasting right now?
> 
> If we were trying to solve a hot homicide case, we'd have already failed in our collective mission.
> 
> ...


May I suggest you guys make a new thread for your debate about high school wrestling nutrition and practices.  It might prove educational.  I know one very sick young man who could have benefited from wisdom in this area.


----------



## chiquest (Apr 26, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think the problem with any example of how fasting works is that human bodies are incredibly variable. One person may get best results with this kind of extreme intermittent fasting (this being about the largest gap you can get with daily fasting), while another person's body may have a bad reaction to 12-hour gaps (in my 20's, that big a gap was a real problem).
> 
> Have you found any source that guides on how to find a fasting regimen that works for an individual, as opposed to simply instructing on how to follow a specific regimen?


This website lists a few intermittent fasting methods...https://sph.umich.edu/pursuit/2019posts/beginners-guide-to-intermittent-fasting.html...but it always depends on the individual. It's true, everyone is unique. For example, I rarely feel hunger. I usually have to check a clock throughout the day and remind myself it's time to eat something. So, you would have to experiment with the duration of fasting periods. Remember, though, you have to stick with an experiment for a few days, not just one day. You might feel uncomfortable at first, but stay with it and see if your body adapts. Then make adjustments by either lengthening or shortening the fasting duration. Using the sleep cycle as part of the fast makes it easier. It's worthwhile to activate autophagy and then balancing it with a healthy diet. It's key to health span and life span.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2022)

chiquest said:


> This website lists a few intermittent fasting methods...https://sph.umich.edu/pursuit/2019posts/beginners-guide-to-intermittent-fasting.html...but it always depends on the individual. It's true, everyone is unique. For example, I rarely feel hunger. I usually have to check a clock throughout the day and remind myself it's time to eat something. So, you would have to experiment with the duration of fasting periods. Remember, though, you have to stick with an experiment for a few days, not just one day. You might feel uncomfortable at first, but stay with it and see if your body adapts. Then make adjustments by either lengthening or shortening the fasting duration. Using the sleep cycle as part of the fast makes it easier. It's worthwhile to activate autophagy and then balancing it with a healthy diet. It's key to health span and life span.


Unfortunately, every time I’ve tried purposely fasting (as opposed to just forgetting to eat), I have acid problems that  make the rest of my day miserable and ruin my sleep for the night. That’s not something I can reasonably wait out.


----------



## Instructor (Apr 27, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Unfortunately, every time I’ve tried purposely fasting (as opposed to just forgetting to eat), I have acid problems that  make the rest of my day miserable and ruin my sleep for the night. That’s not something I can reasonably wait out.


I went through acid problems too that predated fasting.  It seemed like they got worse when I fasted.  After a while though I didn't experience that anymore.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2022)

Instructor said:


> I went through acid problems too that predated fasting.  It seemed like they got worse when I fasted.  After a while though I didn't experience that anymore.


As long as those happen, I doubt I'll make it past that. It's too disruptive to be worth the fast.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 27, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> As long as those happen, I doubt I'll make it past that. It's too disruptive to be worth the fast.


The benefits are worth a little temporary discomfort. Most beneficial things come with at least a little discomfort.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> The benefits are worth a little temporary discomfort. Most beneficial things come with at least a little discomfort.


Perhaps you missed the part about not being able to sleep.


----------



## Steve (Apr 28, 2022)

Timely study was recently released (published a week ago).  Conclusion is that, "Among patients with obesity, a regimen of time-restricted eating was not more beneficial with regard to reduction in body weight, body fat, or metabolic risk factors than daily calorie restriction."  

In other words, if time restriction helps you remain disciplined about your caloric intake, great.  It doesn't seem to hurt.  But you would gain the exact same benefit from simply restricting your caloric intake and eating whenever you want.









						Calorie Restriction with or without Time-Restricted Eating in Weight Loss - PubMed
					

Among patients with obesity, a regimen of time-restricted eating was not more beneficial with regard to reduction in body weight, body fat, or metabolic risk factors than daily calorie restriction. (Funded by the National Key Research and Development Project [No. 2018YFA0800404] and others...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Instructor (Apr 28, 2022)

Steve said:


> Timely study was recently released (published a week ago).  Conclusion is that, "Among patients with obesity, a regimen of time-restricted eating was not more beneficial with regard to reduction in body weight, body fat, or metabolic risk factors than daily calorie restriction."
> 
> In other words, if time restriction helps you remain disciplined about your caloric intake, great.  It doesn't seem to hurt.  But you would gain the exact same benefit from simply restricting your caloric intake and eating whenever you want.
> 
> ...


This is true if weight loss were the only goal. In my case I fast for longevity reasons.  This is where fasting pays massive dividends.


----------



## Steve (Apr 28, 2022)

Instructor said:


> This is true if weight loss were the only goal. In my case I fast for longevity reasons.  This is where fasting pays massive dividends.


I would be interested in reading some scientific research on the subject.  Do you have some stuff you can share?


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 28, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Perhaps you missed the part about not being able to sleep.


People get past that part over time. Nothing worthwhile comes without struggle and effort.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 28, 2022)

Can Calorie Restriction Extend Your Lifespan? - Science in the News
					

Calorie restriction shows promise for increasing longevity in the laboratory, but do we know enough to recommend it in the clinic?



					sitn.hms.harvard.edu


----------



## Instructor (Apr 28, 2022)

Steve said:


> I would be interested in reading some scientific research on the subject.  Do you have some stuff you can share?


I shared a couple of good studies earlier in the thread here is another one: 








						Harvard study uncovers why fasting can lead to a longer and healthier life
					

Intermittent fasting diets are all the rage these days. We are seeing everything from the conservative 5:2 diet to more extreme fasting methods gaining prominence in Silicon Valley circles, but while there has been plenty of observational research pointing out the correlation between fasting and…




					newatlas.com


----------



## Steve (Apr 28, 2022)

Instructor said:


> I shared a couple of good studies earlier in the thread here is another one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will freely admit that this is a pretty dense study.  Reading it, can you help me understand how they're defining "dietary restriction"?  Also, it seems to focus a lot on fusion and AMPK, but I don't really get the nexus with fasting... unless that is what they mean by dietary restriction.  Anyway, interesting article, but I guess what I'm saying is, it's a little above my head.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> People get past that part over time. Nothing worthwhile comes without struggle and effort.


Not being able to sleep is pretty detrimental. More than likely to offset the modest benefits of fasting.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2022)

Steve said:


> I will freely admit that this is a pretty dense study.  Reading it, can you help me understand how they're defining "dietary restriction"?  Also, it seems to focus a lot on fusion and AMPK, but I don't really get the nexus with fasting... unless that is what they mean by dietary restriction.  Anyway, interesting article, but I guess what I'm saying is, it's a little above my head.


Mine, too, perhaps. I’d read “dietary restriction” to mean caloric restriction, rather than fasting.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 28, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Not being able to sleep is pretty detrimental. More than likely to offset the modest benefits of fasting.



Steel is not tempered in downy feathers. Weakness begets only weakness.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Steel is not tempered in downy feathers. Weakness begets only weakness.


Ah, so ignoring the effects of sleep deprivation (including the physical problems it can create) is strength. Got it.

Now get off that stupid high horse. You look ridiculous up there.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 28, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> The benefits are worth a little temporary discomfort. Most beneficial things come with at least a little discomfort.


 Cranberry juice is a natural diuretic.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 29, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Cranberry juice is a natural diuretic.


And?


----------



## Instructor (Apr 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> Timely study was recently released (published a week ago).  Conclusion is that, "Among patients with obesity, a regimen of time-restricted eating was not more beneficial with regard to reduction in body weight, body fat, or metabolic risk factors than daily calorie restriction."
> 
> In other words, if time restriction helps you remain disciplined about your caloric intake, great.  It doesn't seem to hurt.  But you would gain the exact same benefit from simply restricting your caloric intake and eating whenever you want.
> 
> ...


Caloric restriction still involves insulin.  Every time your insulin goes up the mechanisms for cellular repair slow way down.  When you insulin goes way down the mechanisms for cellular repair shift into high gear.  Here is a link that explains it a little better: Caloric Restriction vs. Fasting -The Scientific Investigation


----------



## Instructor (Apr 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Ah, so ignoring the effects of sleep deprivation (including the physical problems it can create) is strength. Got it.
> 
> Now get off that stupid high horse. You look ridiculous up there.


Gerry do you get acid reflux only when attempting to fast or do you get it other times?


----------



## Steve (Apr 29, 2022)

Instructor said:


> Caloric restriction still involves insulin.  Every time your insulin goes up the mechanisms for cellular repair slow way down.  When you insulin goes way down the mechanisms for cellular repair shift into high gear.  Here is a link that explains it a little better: Caloric Restriction vs. Fasting -The Scientific Investigation


So, according to Justin Nault, the owner of a Paleo diet powder company, you that you don't have to restrict your calories if you fast, and I presume use his company's products.  Okay. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Instructor (Apr 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> So, according to Justin Nault, the owner of a Paleo diet powder company, you that you don't have to restrict your calories if you fast, and I presume use his company's products.  Okay. 🤷‍♂️


I don't know anything about Justin Nault or the product, I simply linked this because it explained the findings of the Harvard study I posted earlier in plain language.


----------



## Steve (Apr 29, 2022)

Instructor said:


> I don't know anything about Justin Nault or the product, I simply linked this because it explained the findings of the Harvard study I posted earlier in plain language.


I does?  I didn't see any connection or reference.  Sorry if I'm being dense.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Apr 29, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> And?


You've never seen_ The Departed_, have you.  Bar scene.


----------



## Unkogami (Apr 29, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You've never seen_ The Departed_, have you.  ...


I have not.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2022)

Instructor said:


> Gerry do you get acid reflux only when attempting to fast or do you get it other times?


That’s pretty much the only time.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 2, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I have not.


It's awesome.  DiCaprio, Nicholson, and Marky Wahlberg all in one film.

Oh and Alec Baldwin's commander is priceless.  The head in the bowl of icewater thing, that's real.

Oh and Martin Sheen.


----------



## Unkogami (May 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's awesome.  DiCaprio, Nicholson, and Marky Wahlberg all in one film.
> 
> Oh and Alec Baldwin's commander is priceless.  The head in the bowl of icewater thing, that's real.
> 
> Oh and Martin Sheen.


I don't see a lot of movies these days. Not since I was a young man.


----------



## Unkogami (May 2, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I don't see a lot of movies these days. Not since I was a young man.


Don't be sad. I've got lots of other stuff to do.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 2, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Don't be sad. I've got lots of other stuff to do.


You blamed cranberries for your stones.

Did your doctor _really _blame the berries?  Or give you a list of things to avoid?


----------



## Unkogami (May 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You blamed cranberries for your stones.
> 
> ....


No I didn't.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 5, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> When an expert in the exact field tells me something, I tend to believe him over someone who is not anything like an expert in the field. Again, you are more than free to believe what you will. I'm really not bothered.


Really?


----------



## Thunder Foot (May 10, 2022)

Instructor said:


> I've practiced intermittent fasting for the past couple of years, mostly for longevity reasons.  I want to live a while to enjoy my military retirement. By intermittent fasting I mean I eat one meal a day (OMAD), sometimes two meals a day (2MAD).  In other words most days I don't eat any food or drink calories for at least 16 hours a day.
> 
> Once or twice a year I do a prolonged fast which I would define as not eating food or drinking calories for a period greater than 24 hours.
> 
> ...


Apologies if this seems pessimistic in an way, but are there any scientific journals that anyone knows of that have confirmed the stem cell production at 72-75hrs? I'm interested to give it another run. I've experimented with I.F. and had some weight loss benefit, but nothing toward increased injury recovery or noticeably increased energy levels.


----------



## Instructor (May 11, 2022)

Thunder Foot said:


> Apologies if this seems pessimistic in an way, but are there any scientific journals that anyone knows of that have confirmed the stem cell production at 72-75hrs? I'm interested to give it another run. I've experimented with I.F. and had some weight loss benefit, but nothing toward increased injury recovery or noticeably increased energy levels.


Try this: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2022)

Instructor said:


> Try this: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system.


Does anyone see in that study (you can follow the link in the article) a clear description of the fasting protocol? (I'm dealing with some nerve pain today and having trouble focusing, so may have just missed it.)

EDIT: @Steve you're pretty good at reading these.


----------



## Steve (May 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Does anyone see in that study (you can follow the link in the article) a clear description of the fasting protocol? (I'm dealing with some nerve pain today and having trouble focusing, so may have just missed it.)
> 
> EDIT: @Steve you're pretty good at reading these.


I don't know "good", but I do like reading them.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Does anyone see in that study (you can follow the link in the article) a clear description of the fasting protocol? (I'm dealing with some nerve pain today and having trouble focusing, so may have just missed it.)
> 
> EDIT: @Steve you're pretty good at reading these.


"prolonged fasting cycles — periods of no food for two to four days at a time over the course of six months"

It makes sense, your body goes into conservation mode when you don't consume (which is why people often don't lose much weight when they starve themselves, their bodies want to hold on to fat etc).  

So in this case your body's conserving by recycling waste, which promotes new development of the immune system, which is increasingly tied to diseases later in life.

The major question in my head is, OK if periodic starvation is good for your immune system, what is it *bad *for?  

The same question came up when I tried Keto.  With both keto and starvation you are taxing the body.  Done properly, it sounds like a recipe for success.  But what's "proper" for any individual?  I know that if I try to not eat for even half a day, I'll shut down.  I went years of avoiding breakfast and often, lunch.  Never realized how low my energy levels were until I started the morning with some yogurt.  And I get my "immune system wash" from regular exercise anyway, don't I?


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## Steve (May 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Does anyone see in that study (you can follow the link in the article) a clear description of the fasting protocol? (I'm dealing with some nerve pain today and having trouble focusing, so may have just missed it.)
> 
> EDIT: @Steve you're pretty good at reading these.


So, I dug up the reference, which can be found online here:  Saying No to Drugs: Fasting Protects Hematopoietic Stem Cells from Chemotherapy and Aging

Looks like the specific fasting protocol was a water-only diet in the two days immediately preceding chemotherapy followed by 12 days of eating whatever.  Also, this was in mice.

That said, seems to be very optimistic.

"To further explain fasting-induced preservation of HSC function upon CP treatment, the authors tested the hypothesis that fasting can stimulate HSC renewal independent of chemotoxicity altogether. Strikingly, even a single bout of fasting significantly increased HSC numbers. This improvement was not simply due to a change in HSC abundance relative to other cell types in the BM, or even the potential stimulatory effects of refeeding, as BrdU incorporation increased specifically in HSCs during the fasting period itself. Nonetheless, the potential contribution of refeeding after prolonged fasting to BM regeneration, and effects of fasting on individual cell function, remain to be fully characterized."

I wonder if something has been done since 2014...

Edit:  BM = bone marrow, CP = cyclophosphamide treatment, HSC = Hematopoetic Stem Cell

Edit 2:  To clarify, the thrust of the study seemed to be on the damage that chemotherapy treatment has on general health, which affects recovery from the treatment and also could lead to other health problems including (ironically) possibly CAUSING a secondary kind of cancer.  So, the idea seems to be to punch up the stem cell levels to help with this.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> So, I dug up the reference, which can be found online here:  Saying No to Drugs: Fasting Protects Hematopoietic Stem Cells from Chemotherapy and Aging
> 
> Looks like the specific fasting protocol was a water-only diet in the two days immediately preceding chemotherapy followed by 12 days of eating whatever.  Also, this was in mice.
> 
> ...


The same issue has what appears to be the human study also referred to in the original link (with chemotherapy patients). Which may have been a partial meta-study, as it also references generating deficiencies in specific (hormones?) to replicate the effect caused by fasting (which apparently causes those same deficiencies, as a trigger for the effects being measured). I just couldn't find a reference to the actual fasting protocol - only saw timeframes referenced and the term "caloric deprivation", which could probably mean complete deprivation or some specific reduction, so I wasn't clear.

EDIT: Here's the link I think is the related human study: DEFINE_ME


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## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> "prolonged fasting cycles — periods of no food for two to four days at a time over the course of six months"
> 
> It makes sense, your body goes into conservation mode when you don't consume (which is why people often don't lose much weight when they starve themselves, their bodies want to hold on to fat etc).
> 
> ...


From what I was able to focus on in the human study paper, it looks like the actual function is because fasting has a damaging cycle to the immune system, and the repair system (stem cells, etc.) engages to counter this. It appears to (at least in the chemo population studied) overcompensate, leading to a healthy immune system after treatment.


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## Dirty Dog (May 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> So, I dug up the reference, which can be found online here:  Saying No to Drugs: Fasting Protects Hematopoietic Stem Cells from Chemotherapy and Aging
> 
> Looks like the specific fasting protocol was a water-only diet in the two days immediately preceding chemotherapy followed by 12 days of eating whatever.  Also, this was in mice.
> 
> That said, seems to be very optimistic.


The problem comes when people try to take something like this, which is aimed towards a VERY specific circumstance, and apply it to the general population.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> The problem comes when people try to take something like this, which is aimed towards a VERY specific circumstance, and apply it to the general population.


Agreed. What we see in the human study is specific to countering the immune system damage from chemo, which the fasting seems to have been effective at. There's nothing yet to suggest a healthy immune system would get a boost. While it's more likely an immune system inhibited by other causes is more likely (than a healthy one) to benefit from this, even that generalization is beyond this evidence.


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## Dirty Dog (May 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Agreed. What we see in the human study is specific to countering the immune system damage from chemo, which the fasting seems to have been effective at. There's nothing yet to suggest a healthy immune system would get a boost.


Very true.


Gerry Seymour said:


> While it's more likely an immune system inhibited by other causes is more likely (than a healthy one) to benefit from this, even that generalization is beyond this evidence.


There's actually no reason to think this, either. Because those "other causes" cause damage in different ways - hence "other". 

Here's an example. There is a medication called Xermelo (Telotristat ethyl), a tryptophan hydroxylase inhibitor. It is the only drug in this class. Tryptophan hydroxylase is one of two enzymes required for the production of Serotonin. Serotonin levels are a major factor in the symptoms of Carcinoid Synrome. Xermelo is used to help control the diarrhea caused by Carcinoid Syndrome (which is caused by neuroendocrine tumors, which are a group of rare, incurable, hormonally active cancers).
So it helps with diarrhea, so it should help with other sorts of diarrhea, right?
Not so much. It ONLY works if you:
Have a Neuroendocrine cancer that is advanced enough to be hormonally active.
That cancer is causing Carcinoid Syndrome.
You are also taking a somatostatin drug (which can help slow tumor growth).
 It also costs $7,850 for a 28 day supply, which might be problematic.

So while it's certainly worthwhile to do good studies of the affects of intermittent fasting, this study does not provide any basis for predicting the affects of fasting on the immune system in anything other than the very specific circumstances described in the study.


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## Steve (May 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> The problem comes when people try to take something like this, which is aimed towards a VERY specific circumstance, and apply it to the general population.


Agreed.  That’s why I highlighted what those very specific circumstances were, and left the rest as a direct quote from the site.


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## Oily Dragon (May 12, 2022)

I blame my Google searches for this AI treat, but here you go.  It was an interesting read that popped up in my feeds this morn.

You know, when I think physical or mental excellence, Jack Dorsey (the dude who gave us Twitter) is not my go-to.  "2 hours of meditation", sure buddy.  Cold start.  

Whoever started this trend of billionaire tech giants being the smartest/healthiest/luckiest people in the room, I can only agree with the last.  But this article was thought-provoking.

Are men really given a pass when hard starving themselves, but women are chastised?  Don't know, never been female, and physically incapable of starving myself.









						The Damaging Double Standard Behind Intermittent Fasting
					

Is it "optimization" or an eating disorder?




					getpocket.com


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## Instructor (May 17, 2022)




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## Unkogami (May 27, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Really?


Really.


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