# Oh Crap I'm on my back!!!



## Kenpo Yahoo (Jul 30, 2002)

The title pretty much says it all, but I'll explain a little further for those who might be a little confused.  What would you do if you were in some situation and suddenly found yourself on your back (whether you stumbled or got pushed, that's not the point).  I hear all the time that kenpo has a solution for everything even groundfighting.  

Now before anyone gets suspicious about my intentions let me explain.  I love kenpo, but I've adopted some ideas and principles from outside kenpo to cover myself in this situation.  I am however curious what you more experienced guys and gals would do in this situation.  If you have a favorite standing technique that you've modified for the ground (and you don't mind sharing), throw us a bone.  We'll try and narrow this by nixing the use of weapons at this point.  

So what's your plan?


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## Wertle (Jul 30, 2002)

Sometimes we have entire classes on groundfighting.  It usually involves how to deal with the attack and then get back on your feet as quick as possible, especially in a scenario with multiple attackers ^_^  As far as the techniques we learn, it's quite varied: strikes and kicks as well as throwing and counterjoints, depending on the situation and the attack.

As for official, formal ground techniques, they are taught through the ranks, but in said classes that focus on groundfighting, we mostly learn how to apply what we know in that particular scenario.

One of the most useful I things I found in these classes is getting back on your feet!  It's not something you really think about, and I never really considered it at first, but optimizing quick and effective ways to get up is a good thing to learn, hehe ^_^


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## Hollywood1340 (Jul 30, 2002)

Kiddies,
 If I may, this is one area where I believe it is fair to say AKK is lacking. Ground fighting, is something you may not need, but something you *NEED* to know. On your back is a posititon of power in the eyes of many. if you're in a postition to use it as such. A good shot of BJJ every week should solve said problem. If not, any AKK grappling techs out there? I know there is one demponstrated on Mr. Mill site, ?Rolling Thunder?
Cheers


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 30, 2002)

contact manipulation is good for everyone.

:asian:


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## ikenpo (Jul 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> 
> *The title pretty much says it all, but I'll explain a little further for those who might be a little confused.  What would you do if you were in some situation and suddenly found yourself on your back (whether you stumbled or got pushed, that's not the point).  I hear all the time that kenpo has a solution for everything even groundfighting.
> 
> ...



Well,

I guess it would depend on what range you were fighting from? I was taught (way back when) the old circle from the ground to kick their shin until you can make your way back up. I also learned bowing to budda (knee attack while on knees), prayer of death (kick attack while on knees) and we had some techniques called blue belt ground defense where the attacker was on top of you. As I recall the "ground defense techiques" weren't the greatest and could easily be replaced by some of the more progressive BJJ movements that exist today, but for the time they did teach some basic skills that operated from the point of logic for that time.  These were all taught to me while I was a member of the NCKKA in the mid-late 80's, early 90's. 

But I would think like anything else you're gonna figure it out though logic and through doing it. If you need some instruction I saw Mr. Skip Hancock with Kenpo 2000 has a video on ground techs and generally he is very logical (to say the least) in his approach to the system. 

jb:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 30, 2002)

Some very good stuff!!

:asian:


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## Robbo (Jul 30, 2002)

The ground is definitely NOT your friend. Hit fast, hard, dirty, and then get back on your feet as quickly as possible.

Gee, and if it were that easy everybody would do it. 

All I'm saying is keep it short and sweet, use the distance advantage that your feet posses and then get back on your feet and get the hell outta there (if you can).

Rob


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jul 30, 2002)

> Kiddies,
> If I may, this is one area where I believe it is fair to say AKK is lacking. Ground fighting, is something you may not need, but something you NEED to know. On your back is a posititon of power in the eyes of many. if you're in a postition to use it as such. A good shot of BJJ every week should solve said problem. If not, any AKK grappling techs out there? I know there is one demonstrated on Mr. Mill site, ?Rolling Thunder?
> Cheers



Actually the AKKI has a couple of ground techniques designed specifically for a defense from the mount position.  However these techniques are Mills/AKKI generated material, not EPAK.  I've also explored some BJJ principles, but again that's not a part of EPAK.  I don't know of any specific approach, at least by American Kenpo, to address the ground situation.  

I always hear that kenpo has everything, but I see a big gap in it's attention to groundfighting (thanks hollywood, it's comforting to know I'm not the only one who feels this way).  Now admittedly there is a lot I don't know about kenpo, so I'm curious as to how everyone else approaches the idea of groundfighting or being stuck on your back.  Anymore thoughts???


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> However these techniques are Mills/AKKI generated material, not EPAK.
> *



I know Paul Mills very well, and it appears that you are saying he is "NOT" EPAK......... I can assure you that ALL his material is EPAK conceptually and principally based.  




> *
> I've also explored some BJJ principles, but again that's not a part of EPAK.
> *



Human movement is human movement...... lol...... you must look at the core material and principles to truly understand what it is that you talk about.   There are many other systems that incorporate similar movements like EPAK but is an entirely different system with no connection.    If BJJ has movements that conform (and there are several that can fall under EPAK guidelines) then by all means use them.  If you discover a movement or idea that is NOT covered.... then borrow it!~  I can tell you from experience that we cover most if not all the bases but few see the comparisons and adjustments.

Remember the Ed Parker Quote........ "Knowledge is bound when one is compelled to tradition......... Yet, knowledge is endless when tradition is bound."

Don't "bind" yourself on what You know to be EPAK at this stage of your experience and learning.  "You know what you know....... Not What others know."



> *
> I don't know of any specific approach, at least by American Kenpo, to address the ground situation.  Now admittedly there is a lot I don't know about kenpo, so I'm curious as to how everyone else approaches the idea of ground fighting or being stuck on your back.
> *



Exactly, you may not have been exposed to other areas of AK as of yet, but don't discount that fact that it may be there.

Oh yeah........ being stuck on your back is a difficult scenario for anyone to deal with...... try not to get there in the first place.  

:asian:


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## Seig (Jul 31, 2002)

Didn't we already do a thread on what we called Applied Kenpo?  I have studied Jiu-Jitsu and I fell that the Kenpo techs work very well on the ground.


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## Blindside (Jul 31, 2002)

Hmm,

Well, the "Rolling Thunder" technique that is shown on the AKKI website is essentially a BJJ "umpa" with a bunch of strikes thrown in.  This is something that is learned on the first day of a typical BJJ players education.

Just as a point of clarification, when we are on our back, what is our opponent doing?  Side Control, kata gatame, knee on stomach, mount, standing there kicking us, etc.  Responses to this scenario vary with what your opponent is doing, no one technique is going to solve it.

Incidently, I went the BJJ route to get my ground game, I figured I'd learn from the guys who live there, rather than visit once in a great while.

Salute,

Lamont


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jul 31, 2002)

> I know Paul Mills very well, and it appears that you are saying he is "NOT" EPAK......... I can assure you that ALL his material is EPAK conceptually and principally based.



I never said that the concepts and principles weren't based on EPAK (which in turn had principles taken from other systems and so on and so on).  I merely stated that the techniques Rolling Thunder and several of the other ground techniques were AKKI generated material.  The AKKI has had the help of one of the nations top ranking Olympic wrestlers while developing their ground material.  So it's not 100% EPAK material.  Besides, I haven't seen anyone else doing the AKKI ground techniques or any other ones for that matter.  Do you guys know Swirling Destruction, Collapsing Thunder, Twisted Thunder?  Probably not, unless your in the AKKI.  I'm sure other associations are similiar.  Since most of the kenpo people out there have some knowledge of EPAK I thought the discussion would be better off if this was taken into account. 

I've always heard that kenpo was an all encompassing system (i.e. it had a solution for almost any situation).  I was just curious how people would react if they suddenly found themselves on their backs.  Would you try and modify a standing technique or would you revert to wrestling/BJJ mode?

Realize this, I do not speak for the AKKI or Mr. Mills in any form or fashion.  I just try to call it like I see it.  Sometimes things get a little hazy, but that's why I ask questions like the one posted.

Respectfully


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## Hollywood1340 (Jul 31, 2002)

In AKK if you find yourself on the ground you "Really F*cked up". IMHO a very arrogent view of the world. All encompasing, huh? Seems in this instructors eyes, (A third gen AKK third dan) the impossible is just that, huh? Impossible.


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## Blindside (Jul 31, 2002)

Hi Hollywood,

Was that Chris who said that?  (just guessing, he's the only third I know of in Missoula).  If it was, it might surprise you that he does train against groundwork, just not that often.  Also his knowledge of locks and lock counters is very impressive.  

Anyway, I agree with him, if I find myself on the ground I really did screw up, but knowing myself, that's not all that hard to imagine.    I don't think it is arrogance, it is the view of most standup fighters, that is their strength, and they should do everything they can do to stay there.  

Lamont


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jul 31, 2002)

> In AKK if you find yourself on the ground you "Really F*cked up". IMHO a very arrogent view of the world. All encompasing, huh?



I agree, that is a very arrogant view.  I think if you have found yourself in a situation where you have to fight, then you "Really  F-'ed  up."  Everything after that is just damage control.  For those who believe that it would be impossible to end up on the  ground, here are two stories (non-fiction of course). 

1)  I've had the opportunity to talk to a couple of kenpo guys who bounce at a pretty rough honkey tonk.  One of the guys was involved in a scuffle and lost his balance, he ended up on the ground and on his back.  The attacker fell, with him, into the mount position, but before the attacker could take advantage the bouncer hooked his leg, bridged, and rolled the guy  (BJJ--umpa).  He regained his standing position and carried on.  

2)  Ed Parker Sr. is considered, by most, to have been the most knowledgeable and capable kenpoist ever.  However, some time ago E.P. Sr. was doing a demonstration on a tv show with Frank Trejo.  Mid-way through the technique Mr. Parker lost his balance and fell.  Of course he quickly recovered, if memory serves me correctly, by rolling up to all fours executing a back thrust kick to Trejo's tail bone (ya--ooOOUUCCHH!!!) and regaining a standing position.  If it wasn't impossible for Mr. Parker to end up on the ground, why would anyone else be so arrogant as to think that it would be impossible for them to end up on the ground?  
Accidents, unfortunately, do happen.


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## Blindside (Jul 31, 2002)

> I agree, that is a very arrogant view. I think if you have found yourself in a situation where you have to fight, then you "Really F-'ed up."



Good point.


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## Wertle (Jul 31, 2002)

> For those who believe that it would be impossible to end up on the ground, here are two stories (non-fiction of course).



Not to mention more typical situations, though they may be rare, that *could* happen.

Afterall, if you're enjoying lounging at the beach and, for whatever reason, some crazy hyped up person attacks you, it's not exactly your fault that you're on the ground (unless you consider laying on the beach a fault ^_^)


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## fanged_seamus (Jul 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



First off, I have ZERO experience in this particular situation, and I'm only a beginner in kenpo.  That said, though, I think there are all sorts of options for fighting from the ground.

If you're on your back and your opponent is standing, you can attack his legs.  Mr. Mills has described using a combination ankle-hook and side kick to the knee to knock your opponent over.  The attacker's legs and groin are extremely vulnerable.  Additionally, crescent kicks can be used to deflect the attacker's arms.

If your attacker is in your guard, why not try Mace of Aggression from the ground?  Smash the face, hook the arm, and launch an elbow.  You could possibly even roll over while executing the elbow.  Maybe hook a leg over their head and roll them over while executing an armbar.

If your attacker has mounted you, attack the groin, collapse the arms, buck them over your head... the list goes on.


I don't understand why everyone on the forum has such a sense of helplessness about being on the ground, when I think there are so many options available.  Granted, given the option between standing and beginning flat-backed, I'd rather stand.  But if I'm knocked down, I'm sure as hell NOT giving up -- I'm using my weapons and techniques as best I'm able.

Ah well -- feel free to burst my bubble, but I think there are TONS of ground applications for kenpo -- it just takes some creative thinking....

Tad Finnegan


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## eternalwhitebelt (Jul 31, 2002)

All good systems teach the same thing.  Balance, control, tech. Different arts call it different things.   In Kenpo most (not all because kenpoists never agree) people call it 1. establish your base.  2.  Control the opponents height, width and depth.  3.  execute a "technique".  All of the techniques are set up this way.  Sometimes these things happen at the same time.  Good groundfighting teaches the same thing.  Even on the ground you have to gain your balance, gain control, and then go for your "technique."  It has been my experience that systems that do not teach this concept are not really effectve.  BJJ is very effective in some situations because it does follow this concept.  If you understand this you can take this concept and apply it to many situations.  It does not matter if you are standing, sitting or on the ground.  This concept is generally the common thread among many good systems.  The moves that are taught in the various arts are different examples of how to accomplish this.


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## GouRonin (Jul 31, 2002)

Hey Sandor! I'm not sure if you're still around or still on vacation but do you remember that Kenpo seminar where they brought in that Aiki-Ju-Jitsu guy for a bit of flavour? I have never laughed so hard watching Kenpoists do the absolute worst breakfalls I have ever had the pleasure of seeing.

Yet they have techniques that cover it in the system. Ed Parker understood Judo and placed extremely usable parts of it in certain techniques but you think that people understand? Or if they do do you think they practice it? NooooOOOOOooo!

Now, what senior instructor has a whole spiel on why it's best to place people on their sides during certain techs and not on their backs because, for example, big cats like to fight with all their weapons facing up when on their back?


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## Hollywood1340 (Jul 31, 2002)

Chris, although I try not to throw is name around. Cool guy, eh? Awesome technician. I'm just remebering the "Knowledge dies when it is not passed on, and thrives when it is shared." (Kinda like my HKD insturctor not showing me the forms...ergg!) Please remember I don't train in EPAK, I'm a CHKD/Judo guy, so my views on grappling differ a bit. I've stated before, a wide base on which to draw from is essential. EPAK has that don't get me wrong, but going beyond the "Curriculum" is also essential IMHO with _any_  martial art. I understand Mr. Parker was a Judoka. Judo has been shown to be a great benifit to an AKK student, "First slap then silly, then throw them on their head, remain standing and repeat." HEHE. Free your mind, and your a*s will follow. Just remember to use a good breakfall 

:soapbox:


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## Blindside (Jul 31, 2002)

Hi again Hollywood,

Actually I was in Missoula all of last week, and I was training with Chris every night.  I actually tried dropping by your school but it was closed when I stopped by, maybe next time.  I actually agree more than disagree with your point BTW.

Lamont


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## Roland (Jul 31, 2002)

I have seen the video you are talking about, good points man!!


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## Roland (Jul 31, 2002)

About no one really knowing breakfalls that day.
I love it when you get all upset about stuff like that. I felt the same, but not at your intensity level.


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## GouRonin (Aug 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> *About no one really knowing breakfalls that day.
> I love it when you get all upset about stuff like that. I felt the same, but not at your intensity level. *



That's right. That was the seminar where the infamous _"Butt Punch"_ was born after I gave you the flying elbow drop.

I think what made me so angry was that I had to listen to people all day tell me about how high a rank they were and yet they couldn't breakfall.


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## Kenpo Wolf (Aug 1, 2002)

I have applied the base move of the techniques snaking talon with sword and hammer from a mounted position in class a few times. Theoriticaly speaking, I dont see why it would'nt work on the street

Prone Swords (better name advice?)
Application; Defense vs Mount

1. As your opponent is reaching trying to choke you, apply a left striking check to the back of his right elbow and catching his right wrist with your right hand.

2. Pull his wrist toward your right, which will cancel out his left hand, while you employing a left punch and elbow to his face

3. While maintaining the hold on his right wrist, extend your left arm and employ a outward handsword to the left side of his neck

4. Release his wrist to employ a right handsword to the left side of his neck as the left hand grabs the right side of his head

5. Apply a neck wrench, counter clockwise, to throw him on his back to the left of you

6. Strike his throat with a left hand sword

7. Strike his groin with a left hammerfist

I was saving this technique for rank testing but thought I might as well share it here. Does anyone have any advice or comments they would like to offer?    

6.


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## arnisador (Aug 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf _
> 
> *3. While maintaining the hold on his right wrist, extend your left arm and employ a outward handsword to the left side of his neck
> 
> ...



I am not a kenpoka, but I wonder if you can get enough power in 3 and 4 from your back to make it worthwhile, and if 5 isn't very dependent on his position? I've wrestled and recently started BJJ and cranking the neck isn't nearly as easy as it seems unless you loosen them up first. As always, it's hard to know if we're envisioning the same technique or not--I assume you mean he's mounted you but his back is largely upright?

The BJJ people would point out that every time your arm goes up while he's in the mount you're essentially submitting yourself by giving him your arm for te arm bar, but I think it's reasonable to assume the average street thug won't know that technique.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _*
> But I think it's reasonable to assume the average street thug won't know that technique. *


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## Kenpo Wolf (Aug 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Thanks for the comments, Arnisador. As for the first and second comment, the opponents upper body is being pulled toward the right which will render his right hand nearly useless as well as give the let hand more room to 'travel'. This will add more power to the left punch and elbow. 

As for the second comments, the sword hands would do a great job to loosen up the opponent by screwing with his nner ear, rendering him dizzy. 

As I said before, this technique is entirely theoritical with no street application as of yet


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## Blindside (Aug 2, 2002)

Hi KenpoWolf,

Here is some thoughts on your ground defense.

1) As you grab with your right and pull his arm across your body the opponent will probably collapse his elbow into your face, anchoring himself from losing position and giving you a painful shot in th process.

2)  If you do manage to pull his arm across enough to counter his left arm, then you have pulled your opponent down onto yourself, probably smothering your attempts to get a punch in, also you really don't have any upper body torque to generate power for an elbow shot, you might want to go for an eyeshot/rip here.  If you do manage to counter the left hand, the opponent will probably shift to side-control rather than to give his balance to you.

Just some initial thoughts,

Lamont


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 2, 2002)

I dont think I clearly see this action........


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## Blindside (Aug 2, 2002)

Ah, which action???  

Lamont


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 2, 2002)

I dont think the hand would be in the way..... would it.


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## Blindside (Aug 2, 2002)

Who's hand?  I think this is one of those things that is soooo much easier to show than to explain. :shrug: 

I didn't really get that far in the tech, but I have done a neck wrench from mount, and it does work.  I use both hands though, one hand grabbing the persons hair and the other levering under the chin.  Training partners don't really like it since they don't get to gouge you in the eye in return, and if I did it in a BJJ class I would get armbarred all night long.

Lamont


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 2, 2002)

The system of Kempojujutsu I teach we have alot of ground work. You better know what to do. Things to do for different type of attacks from the mount.
1. the basic mount- the bridge and roll (umpa) also could do the knee push.
2. mount with a arm around head. Drive your head to the ground. Don't let him lift your head up. Now you have his arm trap, hook his foot and bridge and roll.
3. mount with forearm choke. Take hand and push behind his elbow across your body. Trap his elbow with the side of  your head. Now work the knee push. roll out to the side. get the rear mount.
4. Mount with a heavy person. I have done this one before. My training partner is 285, me around 200. So it is not easy moving him around. So sometimes I will give him a arm to try to submit. Once he goes for it, I will counter it, so I don't get armbarred. This also gets me out of the mount.
5. Mount with punches. You can buck upwards and drive your knee into his back. This will throw him off balance. Trap an arm and bridge and roll.
One thing we do is when sparring it is from all ranges including the ground. It is very important you can spar from the ground also. To many people only spar stand-up style.
Bob     :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _*
> Who's hand?  I think this is one of those things that is soooo much easier to show than to explain. :shrug:
> *



Some things are just tough to do on the web.... lol:rofl: 
:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 3, 2002)

> quote:  Kenpo Yahoo
> "I don't know of any specific approach, at least by American Kenpo, to address the ground situation. Now admittedly there is a lot I don't know about kenpo, so I'm curious as to how everyone else approaches the idea of ground fighting or being stuck on your back. "
> 
> 
> ...



Well I'm confused, are you saying that it may be there, or that it is there?  

The whole reason I started this thread was to see if anyone knew how to use their kenpo on the ground.  Everyone's view seems to be that if you ended up on the ground then you really messed up, but so far I'm not sure anyone has tried to remedy the situation.  Most of the replies have been from people who have trained with some ground curriculum outside of kenpo.
So if AK does teach you to deal with an opponent on the ground, how come no one knows how to do it.  

Admittedly, I have very little experience with BJJ, but what I have seen has been rather powerful.  It's powerful in the sense that it offers the greatest number of options to it's practitioner.  So far I haven't seen kenpo offer much in the way of groundfighting, it's for the most part ignored all together.  The only reason I started researching it, was because I was asked to be a volunteer for one of the ground techniques at an AKKI camp.  In doing so I was able to feel first hand the effectiveness of an experienced ground game.  It was the first time I have seen something like that in kenpo.  It seems, to me at least, that the ground curriculum the AKKI is developing is a mixture of wrestling, BJJ, and good ole AK, but it is a mixture non-the-less.  If kenpo has the answers, then please point me in the right direction.  I would love to learn more about my art.   

Respectfully.

Standard Disclaimer:  I don't speak for Mr. Mills or the AKKI.  All stupidity is, unfortunately, my own.  :shrug:


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## Blindside (Aug 3, 2002)

I'm one of the guys who went to BJJ to get my ground skills, and I don't regret a minute of it.  I'm not a good BJJ player by any means, I'm ranked as a fully certified well worn white belt.  But that year in BJJ gave me better ground skills than most kenpo blackbelts that I have met.

I have heard several people say that "its in kenpo" and I guess that may be, but if only 1% of the kenpo blackbelts have it, it really doesn't qualify as being "in the system."  To me a black belt should have at least good basic skills in every range, ground to projectile, and sometimes I think kenpo misses the boat on that.

Lamont


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## Doc (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> 
> *The title pretty much says it all, but I'll explain a little further for those who might be a little confused.  What would you do if you were in some situation and suddenly found yourself on your back (whether you stumbled or got pushed, that's not the point).  I hear all the time that kenpo has a solution for everything even groundfighting.
> 
> ...



*PARTING THE BEAR* - (on your back mounted with wrists pinned to 
ground)

1.	Your opponent has mounted you after you have fallen or been pushed to the ground, and is pinning your wrists to the floor, right to left and left to right, with his shoulders and body weight over the wrists. 

2.	Place your feet flat on the floor close to your buttocks as a BRACE, and push upward with your arms (BRACING ANGLE). This is to get him to rock forward and place his weight over his hands in an attempt to hold you down. UNBALANCE  - CONTACT MANIPULATION.

3.	Execute a double knee strike to his tailbone to keep or force his weight forward. (CONTACT MANIPULATION) Then immediately as your feet re-plant and P.A.M. the floor, punch hard with your left hand along the floor above your head, and simultaneously with your right hand punch downward hard toward your waist. (CONTOURING) This will cause your opponent to Part his arms and his body weight and head will fall forward.)

4.	 Immediately reach up with your left hand and HOOK his shoulder or neck from his right side to force his arm to remain collapsed. (BRACE)

5.	Strike his jaw with an inward heel-palm strike with your right hand, fingers pointed to your right forcing is head to your right. (CONTACT MANIPULATION) COMPOUND TORQUE his head and neck as you straighten your left leg placing it on top of his right leg to PIN his leg to the ground.

6.	With his head TORQUED, right leg PINNED, youre now ready to turn him over. Push your hips forcibly upward in a THRUSTING motion, as you slightly relieve torque pressure on his neck (CONTROL RELEASE) and time the hip thrust with the full re-application of the SNAPPING TORQUE on his head and neck. (He should now roll to your left.)

7.	Roll with him and maintain your hand positions and pressure on his neck. (RIDING) When he is completely over, your right hand should be pushing his head into the ground (BRACING ANGLE) with a heel-palm directly on his MAXILLARY JAW HINGE. Force his legs up in the air as high as possible as you move up his body and place your body weight over your hands and arms. (BRACING)

8.	Make sure his hips are off the ground, and utilize your left hand to SEIZE his carotid arteries by first pushing downward and then toward his head in a STRANGLE.


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## Rainman (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Yeah babe :jediduel: 

:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 7, 2002)

Thank you for your insight Doc.  I don't believe that I'm familiar with that technique.  However, it seems that its purpose is to get the defender back into a position of manueverability and attack.  That's the type of material and response that I've been looking for.  Unfortunately it kinda verifies my suspicion that EPAK doesn't have any base for ground fighting.  If new techniques have to be designed to deal with the situation then that means something was originally lacking.  It doesn't mean that SGM didn't know anything about it, it just means that he didn't put it in the system.  I just get tired of hearing people say that Kenpo is all inclusive and trying to make to out to be stronger than it is.  Kenpo is great for a lot of things, but it has some pretty big holes.  The only way to fill in the holes is to logically create new templates to deal with the different situations, or go outside of Kenpo to find the answers.  I honestly don't see anything wrong with either situation as long as it is done in a logical manner.

Just my Opinion


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## Doc (Aug 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Thank you for your insight Doc.  I don't believe that I'm familiar with that technique.  However, it seems that its purpose is to get the defender back into a position of manueverability and attack.  That's the type of material and response that I've been looking for.*



That particular technique is something worked out with Ed Parker and was included in our curriculum at least 18 years ago. I took it right out of our 301 Course (1st Brown).



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Unfortunately it kinda verifies my suspicion that EPAK doesn't have any base for ground fighting.  If new techniques have to be designed to deal with the situation then that means something was originally lacking.*



Well you're right and wrong as well. It's missing from one aspect of Kenpo. I've said all along that the vast majority of American Kenpo is the "commercial" or "Motion-Kenpo" variety which does not include specifics for anything. It is the most well known because it was specifically designed to reach the most people within his lifetime. It is a lesson plan designed to be administered and supplimented by competent instruction. However there are students and instructors of Motion-Kenpo who address those issues in their teaching, but you are right in that it is not addressed in the designed Lesson Plan.



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *It doesn't mean that SGM didn't know anything about it, it just means that he didn't put it in the system.*



No argument there, but what it means is he didn't put it in Motion-Kenpo. Ed Parker was very competent in grappling skills having studied Henry Okazaki's Dan-Zan Ryu Jiu-Jitsu in the islands with Chow. He asked the questions but did not supply any answers because that aspect requires extreme "hands on" as well as very experienced instructors in that area, which were in short supply. Additionally this training does not lend itself to the commercial application and proliferation goals he had in the early seventies. That is why ALL of the "hands on" techniques are taught as "attempts" by most. It requires very specific information and skills to teach this information as it relates to the lesson plan as a whole. It really doesn't fit the commercial mold. There is a reason that there are not a bunch of "grappling" and Jiu-jitsu schools in every strip mall and neighborhood. It simply is not commercially viable to the bulk of the people. Motion-Kenpo will attract those who don't want to "wrestle," be thrown or "choked out" and have their arms twisted.



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *I just get tired of hearing people say that Kenpo is all inclusive and trying to make to out to be stronger than it is.  Kenpo is great for a lot of things, but it has some pretty big holes.  The only way to fill in the holes is to logically create new templates to deal with the different situations, or go outside of Kenpo to find the answers.  I honestly don't see anything wrong with either situation as long as it is done in a logical manner.
> *



The holes you speak of were addressed years ago, but just not in Motion-Kenpo, but it does seem to be a paradox because American Kenpo is all inclusive but, most of those that make such declaration are not the ones with the knowledge to demonstrate that it is. Some of these are the same people that also condemn the things I say are in Kenpo as I learned it at the same time. It would seem you can't have it both ways. The tendancy is to think of Kenpo only in its commercial form because that's what most are familiar with, but there is far more Kenpo than that.

Consider this:

Ed Parker said himself there were as many styles of (Motion) Kenpo as there are Kenpoist. Your statements lead credence to what I have already said. The popular form of Kenpo is commercially (business) driven and has at its roots the many "self-defense studios." Now of course there are those who do not approach it that way, but it still is a commercial model they are forced to work from. Clearly he meant that the individual should be flexible to suit his own needs and effectiveness because that is the commercial goal of quick self defense.

A quote:

"As I travel around the world teaching I correct these techniques then I ask the question to the student 'Do you think anyone could possibly write this down well enough to explain it?' and they all say no. There's an old saying that "a picture is worth a thousand words" but in Kenpo we say it takes a thousand words to explain the picture. Mr. Parker used to say if you gave ten students the manual and had them read a technique that they don't know and try to put it together you would have ten different techniques with each student doing
what he thinks the book told him to do. "  - "Huk" Planas

This is the reason for that interpretation of his art being "motion" based, loaded with personal preference tailoring, and soft tissue assault focus to insure effectiveness first overall. But what happened is the bulk of the "margina"l students of the commercial system have ultimately become many of its instructors, now teaching there personal preferences and tailoring to their students, as well as passing along their short comings.

Ed Parker ultimately admitted Motion-Kenpo is an entity feeding on itself and each generation gets further away from the very good lesson plan he created for competent instructors to teach. But as the "system" generates its own teachers, much is lost to the de-evolution of the original model. This should be obvious as students constantly speak of techniques they would not actually use, and the primary question seems to be "how do you do it?" This doesn't exist in the Martial Arts in general but is the norm in Motion-Kenpo.

This means really good instructors are rare. Although many are competent practitioners, that is all the "system" was designed to do. It wasn't created to make teachers, but primarily marginal students who could defend themselves. Although there are always exceptions, anyone who looks around should see it. It's in all the written material; It's on the windows of the studios. "Learn quick self-defense." going from A - Z doesn't make you a teacher, or qualified to open a school, but that's what happens.

Before Motion-Kenpo, Ed Parker did not draw the majority of his teachers from his own school for logistical reasons. He attracted black belts from other styles who brought with them essential background and life skills that allowed them to embrace his lesson plan and its concepts and produce good students. (This is the reason for the many asterisks on prominent students names on the family tree including myself). But at the core, these people were already good martial artist that Ed Parker made better. Many of the more recent have no foundation (life or otherwise) to allow them to take advantage of that lesson plan. Most of the Senior Seniors, were ex-military and/or law enforcement for a reason. They knew the "real world" and what it took to survive on the streets.

The marginal everyday students are the ones that especially need these really good instructors. Instructors that know the lesson plan and teach it. Huk Planas who was heavily involved in the creation of certain aspects of Motion-Kenpo said it very well. "The Ed Parker System is what you teach. What the student does with it is their style." Many instructors teach their style, not the Lesson Plan. Do not however see this has an absolute negative. Some innovative instructors do quite well and produce some good students but many more are awful. 

Bob White has "re-written" the book on teaching methods of that material and has no peer in that area. Frank Trejo took his knowledge of the lesson plan and applied his own interpretations and concepts and an impressive boxing, grappling, and kick boxing background to produce unique students. Dennis Conatser is one of the most intelligent men you may ever meet and is the "experts expert" on the most dominant era of American Kenpo ever. Larry Tatum has always been one of the best practitioners in that era and came up along side Frank Trejo has well.

Also consider there are many prominent Kenpo "Senior, seniors" who never transitioned to or learned Motion-Kenpo when it was essentially created in the seventies (Infinite Insights). Chuck Sullivan has demonstrated his personal preference for what he originally was learning. James Ibrao preferred to stay in the "Chinese Kenpo" era of Ed Parker's teaching along with Steve Herring. I evolved under Ed Parker's guidance from that era as well. Dave Hebler too is "Old School" along with Steve LaBounty who never needed an entire Motion-Kenpo technique to get the job done anyway. Many Senior, seniors like the late Bob Perry transitioned and embraced Motion-Kenpo with there own abilities, did quite well, and produced really good students. Dave German as well earned his black in Kenpo but left long before "Motion-Kenpo" was created like many others. The kenpo that these people and myself learned still exists in the practitioners themselves or in their lineages and they are all different from each other and none of them are Motion-Kenpo.

So:

1) you have many unqualified people teaching their tailored motion style instead of the Lesson Plan. 

2) You have Old School teachers teaching Ed Parker pre-motion Chinese Kenpo, etc.

3) You have Ed Parker evolved Kenpo that is not "motion" or Chinese.

4) You have good motion Kenpo teachers making the system work in their students.

5) You have the many off shoots from Chow/Parker (Shaolin, Tracy's, Universal, Vallare, Cerio, Kara-ho, monsoon, Oki Dokie, etc.)

Most of these are all existing concurrently with each other calling what they do American Kenpo. The Kenpo represented in Infinite Insights is not the only Ed Parker Kenpo, but it is a great lesson plan. Unfortunately the numbers of those qualified to teach it well are few. Ed Parker wanted all of his Kenpo students to evolve, but all are not qualified to evolve and most didn't stay with him to evolve with him as he grew.


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## Rainman (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Doc,

To me II looks more like a scap book of Mr. Parkers life work.   There is some items in there that predate the 70's and as far as I understand it is not widely used if at all.  He talks about targets being viewed from all positions but also goes on to say view them when mobile and immobile and have the ability to visualize from all points of view positions and postures.   If someone were to use reverse and opposites that could easily mean you on the ground looking up or an associate on the ground- or both on the ground maybe contesting for a choke as in the offensive action to cross of death.    What is the opposite of stand up?   I always thought the opposite of chi sau standing was ne waza.   For me some of the teks are better suited to grapple then strike anyways.   Eh what do I know- AKer's don't know how to grapple so don't get knocked over... Wait a minute- why do we have the fourth range if we are just going to bludgen each other to death from long range? 

:asian:


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## Doc (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



As that great WB philosopher would say, "WhataMaroon!"  Stop thinking so much, they'll attack you. But as we say in the biz, "Good Obs."


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## cdhall (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> 
> *What would you do if you were in some situation and suddenly found yourself on your back (whether you stumbled or got pushed, that's not the point).  I hear all the time that kenpo has a solution for everything even groundfighting.
> 
> So what's your plan? *



Encounter with Danger would be my first thought.  It teaches you to stop the incoming attacker with a hit and quickly get up.

While mounted/in the guard (if I have that right) I've noticed that I can execute the standing, striking technique "Snapping Twig"  and it seems like it would work well because they give you your target and then they fall into your weapons.

For technique descriptions I have to reccomend Mr. Billings' Excellent "Kenpo Techniques" section linked from
http://www.kenpo-texas.com

One of our teachers has done some grappling and can hold his own at the local Machado school.  With him I have learned some really great moves while on the ground but I very often show him how an EPAK Principle/Concept/Move is involved and sometimes how even parts of a technique he does not yet have are being used.

While I'm complimenting people let me say again that I never fail to be enlightened and impressed by Doc.  

And Mr. C.

Thank you all.
:asian:


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## Hollywood1340 (Aug 8, 2002)

Kiddies,
I've found some AKK'ers don't like to grapple very well. The ex hates judo. Which if kinda funny cause she's smaller then me so it works so well. Of course she could still kick my a*s wiithout a thought, but she is fun to throw when I can get my hands on her. Ah submission! (Which I understand AKK deals in?) Which will allow us to move this thread along. How do your lock flows work in grappling? My CHKD instructor does BJJ _standing up_ ! That is to say, the locks and stuff one of our second gen GBJJ students (He lives in Arizona now) does on the ground, Mstr. T does standing up. I've found as opposed to destroying somebody through "soft tissue strikes" as Doc so wonderfully puts it, controling them works a bit better legally? Any imput? 
"I"m not a kenpoist, but I've never played on on TV!"


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