# Need some information on Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu



## Kframe (Sep 23, 2013)

Hi, I was not sure if this was the correct forum for this but here goes.  I was hoping for some information on BBT. Like how it compares and contrasts with Karate and related arts such as TKD. What the scopes of its training is. What type of kata and forms do they practice.  Weapons training IE knives and such?  The scope of its unarmed system. 

What are some sample basic/intermediate/advanced responses to typical attacks such as the  jab cross, the haymaker, the cocked back straight, various front snap and push kicks to various targets and round kicks at various heights and power levels.  Clinch techniques or ways of dealing with it.  Do they have in there techniques take down defenses against various takedowns and tackles, and single legs/double legs?

With regards to weapons, I understand that they do some sword work. How does it compare to ARMA and other European sword revival styles?

Also tips on spotting a quality BBT school. Things to look out for and questions to ask. 

My mma gym has made some changes im no longer able to participate in. We were different and I learned some things I didn't think I liked. From what I understand BBT has a lot of various controlling techniques, and we practiced some various shoulder and arm and wrist control techniques and I enjoyed them immensely.   Which is part of what is drawing me to BBT.

I have ruled out karate, as I just don't like what I saw in my town and feel I want to do something on the road less traveled. 

Oddly enough, now that all the mma gyms in my city and near by have closed down, I find it kinda freeing. I can experiment with different arts that are not mma and see what I like with out feeling guilty.  I am bummed that this chapter in my training is ending but it is opening another more interesting door, one that I have wanted to walk through for a long time. 

Thanks all for the information.


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## Kframe (Sep 23, 2013)

70+ views... 

Guess ill add another question. Do the Bujinkan budo taijutsu  schools pressure test there skills on live resisting opponents?  Im not just talking free sparring either. I read on line that they don't spar at all. Though tbh, sparring isn't the end all be all.  Still any martial art worth its salt pressure tests in some way, How does BBT pressure test its material?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 23, 2013)

KFrame the absolute best advice I can give you is to go and participate in a class and see if it is for you.  It is wildly different from mma because the approach and preparation is not for combative sport.  Try out a local school and see if you click with the training and the instructor.  Expect it to be very different to what you are used to.  Good luck!


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 23, 2013)

I'll take a stab at this, although I've been out of the Bujinkan for over a decade.  Someone else may have more up-to-date info on current training methods.

First, be aware that there is a fair amount of variation among Bujinkan instructors, both in approach to training and in skill level.  Regardless of what anyone tells you online, you may want to check out your local school to see if the generalizations apply.  That said ...

Scope of practice is fairly broad: unarmed strikes, kicks, throws, standing joint locks, and a variety of weapons.  Weapons training usually starts with the practical (short stick, knife, chain) and working up to more historical weapons such as staff, sword, and others.  In my day there was almost no ground fighting, but I know that some schools have added elements of ground technique in recent years.

The kata are of the classical Japanese style, i.e. short choreographed patterns with 2 partners.  There are no solo kata of the type you see in karate and TKD.

Most Bujinkan schools that I've seen do not spend a lot of time training against the standard techniques you are familiar with from MMA. (i.e. jab, cross, hook, round kick, double-leg, etc).  Most of the techniques are practiced against a relatively small number of rather stylized attacks (lunge punches, wrist grabs, etc).  The idea is that the principles learned in these defenses can be generalized against a greater variety of real-world attacks.  Depending on the school, you may or may not get much chance to experiment and find out how the principles apply to more realistic attacks.

Most Bujinkan schools do not have sparring.  At the higher levels you may get to do "randori" where a defender improvises defenses against unscripted attacks.  (This doesn't quite meet my definition of randori and the quality of the attacks is not generally that high in my opinion, but it's pretty much the same definition as the aikido folks use.)

Identifying a good Bujinkan school is tricky.  Hatsumi is very inconsistent in his standards for handing out rank, so the belt level of the instructor isn't much help.  Probably your best bet is to show up, try a class, and see what you think.


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## Kframe (Sep 23, 2013)

Brian, that is exactly what im doing. I have a free class this Saturday at 9am at this BBT school. http://ftwaynemartialarts.com/instructors/ 

Since my mma school shut down, and the own I was attending decided to alter the schedual preventing me from training there, I can not find quality instruction in my area out side of this school and a WTF/kkw tkd school. Im not built for TKD nor do I want to do that style. 

Hence why im looking at this school seriously. From what I understand of BBT, its big on controlling, and I like that..


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## jks9199 (Sep 23, 2013)

The various x-kan arts are very different from what you've trained in before.  The Bujinkan has a very different general approach to training from MMA and most traditional arts, and there's a huge variation in teaching and practice styles within the Bujinkan.  I think you could say that very loosely and very broadly, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu has some similarities to traditional Japanese jujitsu -- but that's almost like comparing a Porsche and a Mack truck and saying that they're similar since they both have wheels...

Visit the class; that's the only way you'll get a feel for the dojo.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 23, 2013)

Hey KFrame I do not know the instructor's at this school. (though I may have met one of them a long time ago)  However, having said that a good indicator to me is that they have trained with Shihan Michael Asuncion as he is really, really, really good and a friend.  So that is a positive in my mind.  

Budo Taijutsu does have a lot of controlling and immobilization technique and great joint locks, breakfalls and rolls.  There is a heavy emphasis on utilizing weapons/tools and the same movement applies with empty hands as well.

It is very different from your previous training but if you try it and like the instructor it may be just what you want!

Good luck!


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## Kframe (Sep 24, 2013)

The other big thing that is attracting me to this place, is stability. It has been in Fort Wayne for a long time. Stable. I desperately need stability. 

Why don't they spar? Surely the basic striking and striking defense  and throwing and what not can be sparred>?  I believe in pressure testing, so how do they, the quality ones that is, pressure test?


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## jks9199 (Sep 24, 2013)

Let's talk for a moment about sparring and "pressure testing."  You seem, like lots of people, to feel that you have to try out what you're doing in sparring to see if it works.  Here's the problem -- sparring is not the same as a real fight.  Lots of threads and discussions on that around, so I'm not delving too deep.  But sparring practices a lot of things that are just plain dumb for a real fight, like move in, score, escape, and re-engage, or just plain squaring off and agreeing to fight.  Not that sparring doesn't have its good things; to me, sparring is ONE way to practice the learned techniques against an opponent.

So... how can you pressure test without sparring?  You might do scenario drills (very good, but hard to do well).  Many traditional arts, especially some of the Japanese arts, use a form of 2 person kata, with increasing variability as you develop skill.  You start out doing a scripted response to a scripted attack, with little or no resistance.  As  your familiarity with the technique increases, the attack becomes less scripted, less predictable, and eventually you know how to use it against many different atacks


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## Kframe (Sep 24, 2013)

To be honest JKS that is the only way I have ever been taught to pressure test. Out side of the occasional Tech sparring we did in my old boxing gym. Which was more of a 2 person kata then a sparring.   Im just worried that If I don't get tested that I wont know if something works. I like getting attacks thrown at me, I miss I get hit. I guess im just not familiar with how they pressure test and im not going to judge. Well ill at least try not to.  

Part of the problem is I am having a difficult time finding videos of quality instructed BBT practitioners actually using that art against live resisting opponents. I just want to see that what they are teaching holds up under stress.


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## jks9199 (Sep 24, 2013)

Dale Seago doesn't stop in hereabout much anymore -- but he and quite a few others have actually used BBT in the real world.

There's a lot of variation within the Bujinkan.  There are some really good, really solid instructors who understand how to work and apply the principles and techniques in the real world.  And, at about the opposite extreme, you have some that are little more than LARPers.  Most are somewhere closer to the middle ground, just like most any other martial art.  It may be up to you to move beyond what goes on in the dojo, and find a few students to work with.  I like Rory Miller's name for that sort of thing: a Violence Prone Play Group.  Find some people you can work with and actually see what works and what doesn't work.


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## Kframe (Sep 24, 2013)

Well, im kinda excited to go to this class. I have never done anything quite like it before. Should be interesting.  When it is over on Saturday, ill post back my thoughts.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 24, 2013)

Have fun!!!


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## Kframe (Sep 28, 2013)

Just got back from class.  It was a interesting experience.   Class started and it was  a small class. We were on our knees, feet behind us and they did some chanting in Japanese and clapped there hand and then bowed. Twice.  I tried to follow along but was lost. The teacher understood, so no worries there.  

First thing we did was 2 rolls. One a forward roll and one a backwards role. The forward roll was easy to do, but I found my self unable to do the backwards roll. I Just couldn't get enough speed in my left leg to throw it over my right shoulder.  

Then we did a punching drill. The stance was very different then im used to. We started with a left lead, and my hand was extended further then I am accustomed to. It was placed in a Shuto. The right arm was in a fist near my left shoulder, my rear foot was at a 45degree angle forward.   It was different but I found it in no way hindered my ability to punch.  We would step, do a circular check, whose name escapes me, then stepped into the punch. They move there whole body into the punch and sink into it. It felt like it had power. Im not used to sinking like that, but it didn't feel awkward, just something I would use situationaly.

The circular check, was odd, but I see the principal of the motion and what it is for.   

We also practiced one kick, and that was the front kick. It was Massively different then any front pushing kick I have ever seen or done. Swing your foot out like its a rock on a rope.  Then when its close to its target, there is a small chamber then the push and back to its normal position. I struggled with this at first, but had the hang of this defensive maneuver quickly.  Its a defensive push kick. 

The next part of the class was the hardest, and most different to me. We did 5 solo kata.  When he said we were doing kata, my heart sank. I was sure we were going to do karate style multiple minute long forms. NOPE these were very short, almost like solo drills. Each one addressed something specific and the next one built of the previous. 

The first one ended in a bowling ball like finger strike to a soft area. The next we stepped back into fight stance then off the line into a high block with our rear hand raised up as well then stepped forward and the rear hand struck the neck.  Each of the 5 solo kata were themed like that. Ill say this I much prefer this style of solo kata over the kind of kata performed in Karate. 

The last things we did was some self defense stuff with a partner. We did 2 wrist grab variations. I Liked these drills they felt practical. I can see the need for a defense against this kind of thing.  I struggled a bit with the first wrist grab. I am not sapposed to twist the wrist but rotate the whole arm, locking each joint as the arm is rotated to its extant. I kept wanting to twist the wrist.   The second variation, going the opposite direction, was easier. 

Class ended with the kneel and more chanting.  We then talked for 45minutes after words. I love that nothing is a  set technique for a set attack. Its all about concepts and principals.  You start off rigid, learning things big and exaggerated. So that as time and your experience go by and improve you can learn to do them smaller and smaller and more efficiently.  

With regards to weapons defense we talked about knives.  His philosophy on that is control the person behind the knife.  They focus on using good basics and fundamentals and applying them to weapons defense. 

The pace of the class was overall a lot slower then im used to. With a focus on technical development. My previous training was a help and curse at the same time. I can only do things fast, I cant do them slowly. This will have to be unlearned. They believe that if you can do it slowly you can do it quickly, but you have to start slowly first.  I did things on instinct that they teach. Such as tucking my chin and blocking my cheek with my shoulder, they teach that as well. 

While im not accustomed to the slow nature of the class, I like it. It makes it so that I can focus on proper technique and doing it correctly. At higher levels and more experience they turn up the speed. They do so gradually as time goes by. 

Overall I was impressed with his technical skill, and his ability to teach it. He was very open to my questions, as evidenced by the 45 minutes we spent talking after words.  
There was NO ego present in him or the class and im very grateful for that. I cant stand ego's any more. MMA is to full of ego. 

He had no problem with my desire to do one mma fight before im to old to do so. He made it clear that's not his focus, and I understand. I will learn the art as taught and applied. I told him my goal for a cage fight was last on my check list, that in order to learn to fight, I have to learn to defend my self first. I have to learn everything first. Thusly I must learn the art properly first. Im sure as times go by my desire to cage fight will go down. I just want to be tested, and tested hard. I need to know I can step up to the plate when called  on. 

I told him, my number one goal right now and going forward is stability and consistency. That I was tired of jumping from gym to gym, and coach to coach. Never being stable, and that the fact he was here for more then a decade proves his stability.  

Overall I was impressed, and will be signing up. I told him I cant start till  after November, and he was ok with that.  He is not interested in making money on this. All the proceeds go to paying his way to train in Japan at the Honbo.  I got a good feeling in my gut from him. It is my hope I have finally found a TMA I can call home.


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## Kframe (Sep 28, 2013)

Quickly wanted to add this. The instructor was by my side nearly the whole time. Walking me through everything personally. I appreciated that.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 28, 2013)

Sounds like a great fit for you and your training.  Enjoy and have fun!!!


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## Kframe (Sep 28, 2013)

I noticed that the bujinkan does a few different Stick/staff arts. _Rokushakubo_, _Jo_,_Hanbo_, _Jutte_, _Tessen_, and _Eda Koppo  Can anyone tell me about them.  I noticed that they have some That are _similar in length to a kali/escrima stick.  How do the techniques stack up to more popular stick arts? Just curious as I was unaware of Japanese stick arts.

What are the others?


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## Kframe (Sep 28, 2013)

Was on another forum and noticed that the karateka were less then thrilled with my participation with the BBT. Their main complaints against BBT was that it was a entire art based around standing start drills,(here is the article they linked to)http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2011/10/standing-start-drills-whats-wrong-with.html And the total lack of sparring.. 

How do others that are experienced with this art and others like it address those things? 

I find there issue with sparring odd, as the school im looking at has regularly scheduled Randori. Unless im misinterpreting the term Randori.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 28, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I noticed that the bujinkan does a few different Stick/staff arts. _Rokushakubo_, _Jo_,_Hanbo_, _Jutte_, _Tessen_, and _Eda Koppo  Can anyone tell me about them.  I noticed that they have some That are _similar in length to a kali/escrima stick.  How do the techniques stack up to more popular stick arts? Just curious as I was unaware of Japanese stick arts.
> 
> What are the others?



The utilization of the rokushaku bo, hanbo, etc. within Budo Taijutsu is extensive and fantastic!  This is coming from someone with over 32 years in the Filipino Martial Arts.  I like how the body movement in Budo Taijutsu is the same whether it is empty handed or with a weapon.  Take for instance the kata you worked on the other day.  Add a knife and walla it works great.  Same with the hanbo, etc.  Very fluid and very strong!


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## Kframe (Sep 28, 2013)

Brian, and others, can you Address Mr Djerivics issues with bbt?  I don't understand the nearly vitriolic hatred he has for this art. Which for him is odd, seeing as he is such a level headed guy.  Here is the link to the thread I have on it. http://www.traditionalfightingartsforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=3127

I regret my fights with Chris parker, he is so smart about this stuff.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 28, 2013)

Some Bujinkan schools spar and some do not.  From a street self defense perspective sparring is not the end all be all of personal protection.  Personally I spar and in IRT we spar full contact as well as grappling and sparring with weapons.  Some Budo Taijutsu Dojo that I know of also do this but they are not the majority by any means.  Personally, the most realistic form of training for self defense with pressure testing is to do Scenario Based Training.  Walk through a scenario and then pad up and have at it. (it can go anywhere the participants take it)  Scenario Based Training is essential from a self defense perspective in my mind.  Hard contact with potential grappling and or working to escape, etc.  Quite a few Bujinkan schools I know of have a bit of this within their curriculum.

Some people will simply not like the training within Budo Taijutsu. (just like I or you may not like what they are doing)  With your background in MMA and a desire to learn it probably will suit you really well.  Many of the pioneers in the Bujinkan came into it from other systems and or military, police training, etc.  They not only enjoy it but swear by it!  Since real world self defense revolves around weapons/tools and this is a system that deals with them then it makes sense that people in real world dangerous occupations like it!

Hope that helps!


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## Kframe (Sep 28, 2013)

Actually Brian, it does help. I don't understand his hatred. Im not a TMA guy by any stretch but I can see the principals and concepts behind much of what they were doing.  Just a wildly different way of going about it.   Im done with mma for personal reasons, namely I cant stand the ego's and schools arnt stable. They can disappear or degenerate at the drop of a hat.  

With regards to sparring, I think you are correct.  Situational scenario drills with intensity are what is called for. I think they do that, but at a higher level. Which is ok because whats the point if you don't have the basics down pat with incrementally increasing pressure. 


You are correct about there weapons training. None of the taijutsu changes. The same principals apply to there weapons as they do to unarmed. They demonstrated that with a knife for me. So you really think there Hanbo and Bo skills are good? I was watching some Dog brothers and that was what prompted that question. I wanted to see if they were as involved as there system was.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 28, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I regret my fights with Chris parker, he is so smart about this stuff.



Chris is really smart when it comes to Japanese history, Martial Systems, etc.  However, he is not a Bujinkan practitioner so his advice in regards to this system is not always spot on.  Still he has an immense wealth of information to share and knows more than most!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 28, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Actually Brian, it does help. I don't understand his hatred. Im not a TMA guy by any stretch but I can see the principals and concepts behind much of what they were doing.  Just a wildly different way of going about it.   Im done with mma for personal reasons, namely I cant stand the ego's and schools arnt stable. They can disappear or degenerate at the drop of a hat.
> 
> With regards to sparring, I think you are correct.  Situational scenario drills with intensity are what is called for. I think they do that, but at a higher level. Which is ok because whats the point if you don't have the basics down pat with incrementally increasing pressure.
> 
> ...



The Dog Brother's system is exceptional at what they do!  Very, very good and I enjoy it a lot!  Budo Taijutsu skill sets with the hanbo, rokushaku bo are extremely and I do mean extremely good.  That is an area where Hatsumi is simply one of the best in the world.  You will not find anyone arguing about that!


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## Chris Parker (Sep 29, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I regret my fights with Chris parker, he is so smart about this stuff.



Firstly, I'd just like to say I appreciate this. From my end, I say we have a clean start... I'm going to go back to the MMA thread, by the way, just to further inform you on some of the details you're less sure of.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Chris is really smart when it comes to Japanese history, Martial Systems, etc.  However, he is not a Bujinkan practitioner so his advice in regards to this system is not always spot on.  Still he has an immense wealth of information to share and knows more than most!



Except, Brian... I am a former Bujinkan student, my Dan ranking is in the Bujinkan, I have been intimately involved in the Bujinkan and other forms of Takamatsu-den organizations and more for two decades plus now, so I'm not entirely sure that stating I'm not a Bujinkan practitioner (currently) has that much to do with anything.

That said...



Kframe said:


> Brian, and others, can you Address Mr Djerivics issues with bbt? I don't understand the nearly vitriolic hatred he has for this art. Which for him is odd, seeing as he is such a level headed guy. Here is the link to the thread I have on it. http://www.traditionalfightingartsforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=3127



Hmm. Look, to be frank, Mr Djerivics doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. His opinions are based on a lack of knowledge and experience, and seem to be biased from the outset. I'll go through some of his comments, and point out where he's mistaken:



			
				dandjurdjevic said:
			
		

> I'm glad it went well.
> 
> But sorry - I'm not a fan of ninjutsu (bujinkan taijutsu etc.). You'll note that I don't have a ninja forum here - and that's because I don't see these as schools of "traditional martial arts". As near as I can tell, they comprise eclectic combinations of various ippon kumite (one step sparring) drills drawn mostly from jujutsu but done with a karate emphasis. Karate and other tma do have ippon kumite: but to base an entire "system" on this paradigm fails to acknowledge the limitations of such "standing start drills".



Hmm. Well, he got that wrong. The authentic Ninjutsu schools (Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, some offshoots) are not "eclectic combinations of various ippon kumite", they are actually collections of various traditional Japanese martial arts. Without getting into the more questionable histories and lineages, two of the six dominantly taught arts are Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishinden Ryu... both of which are absolutely verified as old Japanese arts. Additionally, the make-up of the other systems (Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Togakure Ryu, and, most of all, Shinden Fudo Ryu) all fit exactly with traditional Japanese martial arts. The problem is that Dan has no experience or idea of what such arts are like... so he dismisses what he doesn't understand. His comment about "bas(ing) an entire system on this paradigm (what he thinks is similar to "ippon kumite"... something found in karate, which shows the filter he's working through) fails to acknowledge the limitations" shows that he has no experience in traditional arts... I mean, he's just basically dismissed all traditional Japanese arts, because that's the way they're all designed. These arts ain't karate... but we'll get to that.

From there, he posted a video of a "ninjutsu" practitioner performing an incredibly bad seio-nage... except the video he chose was of a fraudulent individual, someone with no connection to anything authentically Japanese, let alone Ninjutsu, whatsoever. Jonathon Allen's background is in Ashida Kim's group... to put that into context, he might as well say he trained with John McClane (Die Hard), and therefore is able to instruct SWAT teams... 



			
				dandjurdjevic said:
			
		

> Btw, I don't buy - at all - the "creation myths" propounded by ninjas today. What we see nowadays as "ninjutsu" was created in the late 70s and early 80s as part of a "ninja movie craze". I don't believe there is any extant "authentic" school of ninjutsu. There probably never was such a thing (ninjas were assassins - no practitioners of some particular "art").



To deal with the "creation myths", it should be noted that many Japanese arts have similar invented, or embellished histories... and the histories given by the various Ryu in the Bujinkan have long been known and acknowledged as being embellished, at the very least. But, from there, Dan shows again that he doesn't have any real knowledge in this area, as he brings out the old "ninja were assassins" tripe. Uh, no. There's actually no evidence to suggest that at all, historically speaking. "Ninja" (there were other names used, for the record) were primarily information gatherers, spies, for want of a better term, occasionally employed for sabotage or similar.

With regards to there being "extant authentic schools" of ninjutsu, even outside of the Bujinkan there are a number of schools that contain ninjutsu in one form or another... most famously the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu. Again, he just doesn't have the education to make any comment there.


(In response to the comment that "they don't call themselves 'ninja' anymore")


			
				dandjurdjevic said:
			
		

> Yes, I know many such schools. They have moved on to avoid embarrassment.



Uh... no. It's far more to do with the fact that, in the Bujinkan for instance, there are 6 schools primarily taught (only little bits of the remaining three have been shown, so they can be almost discounted in the main), and only one of those is a Ninjutsu school. The vast majority of what you do isn't Ninjutsu at all... 



			
				dandjurdjevic said:
			
		

> Drills are fine - don't get me wrong. Even static ones. But most ninja training doesn't contain any truly dynamic context drills. It may be that you've chanced upon a school that does. If so, that is fine. But I can't say I've ever seen one. I've seen lots that can demonstrate some very impressive stuff - but it has never involved anything other than a "zombie attacker".
> 
> I added a video to my previous post. Here's another. The technique is fine. But if this is all there is to the attacker...



Godsdammit, he's basically describing the way kata (Japanese) are designed to be trained (his "dynamic context drills"), while saying that the exact method he wants isn't there... and he knows this how?

Okay, I'll be blunt here. I've just read most of his website, his linked blogs, and more, and frankly, ignore him. He doesn't know anything, he has no traditional art background or knowledge (so how he's able to say what is or isn't is another question entirely... his art is a hybrid system, eclectic and modern, not traditional at all, for the record), every one of his blogs is ludicrously off base (he misses what kata is, he doesn't understand what the training methods of other arts are, he presents his incredibly non-Japanese take on "Jo" as "lessons from Japanese weapon arts" - let me tell you, you use the weapon like that in a real Jo class, you get told to put the weapon down - and way, way more). The only thing I can find that he gets right is he correctly identifies the Sanshin no Kata... which is a fundamental movement exercise, not a directly applicable combative series... then complains that it's a basic series of actions, not a combative sequence. Well, yes, that's right. And that's not a criticism, unless he thinks that everything done in a class has to be a fighting technique... in which case, I'd recommend he starts looking again.

Simply put, Dan has no idea of traditional anything. As soon as he starts spouting that, ignore him.


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## Kframe (Sep 29, 2013)

Chris, Thank you for taking time to respond.  I didn't know that Goju was a modern style.  You mentioned 3 schools don't get taught much. I had read that those schools were things like castle building and other period centric material. I could have sworn read that one of those styles dealt with espionage and masquerading and map skills  and water skills. 

What's strange about that whole situation is that, coming from MMA I actually got a lot out that class. As I told Dan it took me along time to figure out that I learn better in more "drills" centric environment. (which I know its kata that I was doing. For me I have always called that kind of thing drills.)   I learned that I can not do anything slowly only fast and that I don't know the context of movements I was taught.(the modified karate I was studying)   I think my MMA experience was both a help and curse. Some things I was doing instinctively and others were like a foreign language. Things they teach that I did normally was tuck the chin and cover cheek with shoulder/bicep. 

I can see the principals behind a lot of what I was show. Mostly basic things like the circular checks and the body movement while doing the punching drill.  

I had a feeling that his appraisal of their kata drilling system was flawed, because of all the things you and I have discussed, kata was one of them. A long time ago you showed me how Traditional Japanese Kata were different, and how they trained was different. I went into that class with those thoughts in the back of my mind. One thing I was surprised at was the solo kata/forms. I didn't know they did that. I thought that BBT had Partnered Kata? I cant remember the names of the kata but there was 5 basic ones that all fed into each other. I rather liked them more then what I have seen of the karate systems kata. 

From what I was told the advanced class is higher speed then the lower level class I was at. With more pressure  and I would assume more complicated things. I know they have a regularly schedualed randori class. Can you tell me what I can expect from a BBT randori class? Say how would it differ or someone that is a 8th or 9th kyu vs someone that is a higher kyu like a 3rd-1st and above?

I wonder how the training looks like in the advanced class. 8th kyu and above. Dan has a problem with the nature of the beginners class being so slow. IDK I agree with the instructor who invited me to train there. He wanted the beginner class to be about perfecting the basics and technical skills. Like I said. I actually got a lot out of just that slow low class.  Cant wait to see what further training does for me. 


What about his assessment of the Ninjato sword? It kind of makes sense to me. Wouldn't a ninja just get a shorter more straight katana? I would imagine such things existed.  As was noted in the wiki article.  I thought that ninja were also high ranking in society like the Samurai were? If that is the case they can afford to have a custom sword made.

What is funny is the transition from mma to BBT. I never saw it coming. I thought I would MMA my way through all my martial needs. Then my mma gym drops the adult class and the other one folds up do to familial sickness and im left with out a place to train. Not being impressed with karate in my area and for all the reasons I laid out to Dan, I figured WTH ill give them a shot. 


There was just something about it that felt good. I like that their was a solid weapons system in place covering most of my areas of interest. From swords to spears and sticks and bows and knives and even gun defense. LOL I cant wait to learn the throwing weapons just for the pure fun of them. 

Chris can you recommend any books and other things I can read and watch that can further help my knowledge of the art im getting into?


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## Kframe (Sep 29, 2013)

I was hoping you guys could help me with some thing. I was trying to find videos of Bujinkan kicking techniques. Im trying to find videos so I can start working on that odd front kick. Its so different then the MT and karate front kicks im used to.  It starts off with the leg swinging straight, and it doesn't chamber until the end of the swing. Then it push's out. It is a push kick.  He described it like a rock on a string.  

I have yet to find any good Youtube videos of it. Hoping you can help.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 29, 2013)

I always recommend that people go straight to the source.  Hatsumi Sensei has many DVD's out there and I am sure you can find what you need by purchasing one of them.  I will look later to find some thing online to help you out.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 29, 2013)

KFrame a great book that should be in every Bujinkan practitioner's library is Stick Fighting Techniques for Self Defense by Hatsumi Sensei.

Here is a link to where you can see a photo of it:  http://www.amazon.com/Stick-Fighting-Self-Defense-Masaaki-Hatsumi/dp/1568364997

You can typically find it in most Barnes and Noble book stores.


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## Kframe (Sep 29, 2013)

Thanks for the find. Im gonna order it. Looks like a great addition to my growing stick fighting library.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 30, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Except, Brian... I am a former Bujinkan student, my Dan ranking is in the Bujinkan, I have been intimately involved in the Bujinkan and other forms of Takamatsu-den organizations and more for two decades plus now, so I'm not entirely sure that stating I'm not a Bujinkan practitioner (currently) has that much to do with anything.



As I stated before Chris you are a really knowledgeable practitioner and you do know your history of the Takumatsuden Arts very, very well.  However, you are not a Bujinkan practitioner (currently) nor a Budo Taijutsu exponent.  Not being current in Budo Taijutsu and a direct connection with Soke (through an instructor or yourself) hinders anyone's ability to fully convey everything correctly.  Because of this there could be misinterpretation. (particularly in regards to training technique) It is no different than myself in that while I have a connection and I do train in Budo Taijutsu and am a current member.  I simply cannot give every correct answer either as it is not the only system that I study.  I can give pretty good answers and I can research with people who absolutely know the correct answer. (because I am connected)  Yet I am not an expert on everything Budo Taijutsu, the Bujinkan or the Takumatsuden Arts!  I will leave that to others who are Michael Asuncion, Phil Legare, Don Roley, Doug Wilson, Dale Seago, Paul Richardson, (many more westerners I just listed a few) and of course the Japanese Shihan and Hatsumi himself.  Just clarifying where anyone training in the Bujinkan should get their information.

Having said the above that certainly does not mean that either you or I can comment as we certainly have wisdom and or knowledge in this area.  Just that as with everything there are experts and then there are the real experts!  

In KFrames position his current instructor in the Bujinkan and Budo Taijutsu specifically is in the best position to answer any an all of his questions. (particularly as there is a less likelihood of misinterpretation talking with someone in person than online)  I then would encourage him to slowly purchase Books and DVD's over time written by Hatsumi to get even a better understanding of this system.  If history is what he is looking for Paul Richardson wrote a book that is a good start.  Technique wise stick with the Books and DVD's written by Hatsumi Sensei and you cannot go wrong.  Of course we can also give him advise here but the above is better than anything you or I can give him!


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## Kframe (Sep 30, 2013)

Thank you for the name drops Brian. Ill look them up.   You are correct, in that I should ask the instructor. I did infact do just that. I spent 45minutes talking about the art with him. His goal is to get 15th before Soke Hatsumi retires.  He just wants to pass on a quality martial art that people can defend them selves with and some good life lessons as well.  He did his best to explain how the technical progression works. I understand it a lot better. Some thing called Shu Ha RI. Right now im at Shu. Later ill be at the Ha, then later through diligent study RI.  I have been reading things by SOKE Hatsumi and my new instructor, they both mentioned that the RI part usually starts around 5th bb, or godan I think.  Which makes sense.  

Shu Ha Ri is a new concept for me, but not new if that makes sense. My former mma training was kinda like a fast tracked Shu ha ri. Just I didn't spend enough time in Shu or Ha. 

My new instructor likes to teach variations of everything. So that you can still use a technique even if your not in the proper space to do it.   I only have few questions left regarding this art. My main question is how does this art pressure test its self at higher levels. I forgot to ask that question in our conversation.     Can you guys enlighten me about how a good BBT school pressure tests its students skills? 

Other then that, Im at the point were I have no real need to ask technical questions about such and such a technique. I have only to train, and I intend to train my *** off. 

I do know this. I intend to use my mma skills to help my new friends In there training. Being a Good tori is important to me. If I can provide someone who can throw reasonably good boxing/mma punch's and kicks or them to practice against im happy to provide that.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 30, 2013)

Hey KFrame,

Most of the good Budo Taijutsu people that I know also incorporate Scenario Based Training into their skill sets so that you get that pressure testing. (not everyone does this but most that I know do)  Your MMA skills will only help you learn Budo Taijutsu and will also help you appreciate your new skill sets.  Since I cross train extensively I personally believe that Budo Taijutsu people should as well.  The seminar I told you about in Columbia City, Indiana at Living Arts has an instructor named Dean Houser who also cross trains, spars, does Scenario Based Training and yes he teaches Budo Taijutsu.  He also has that connection to Soke because he travels to Japan.  That is a great way to train in the Bujinkan and Budo Taijutsu in my opinion!


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## Kframe (Sep 30, 2013)

What does he cross train in just curious?  I cant wait to come to the seminar, should be lots of fun.  

Question though. Wont cross training muddy the water a bit? Slow progress down at early levels?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 30, 2013)

Kframe said:


> What does he cross train in just curious?  I cant wait to come to the seminar, should be lots of fun.
> 
> Question wont cross training muddy the water a bit? Slow progress down at early levels?



It certainly can muddy the water early on.  At your stage you should probably stick with your Budo Taijutsu training and of course remember your MMA training.  Though an occasional seminar and or training won't hurt you.  You already in a way are cross training coming from another background!  Plus Budo Taijutsu is of course a very, very broad system!

Dean has done a lot of Scenario Based Training (IRT, Bill Kipp FAST Defense to name a few) and he has extensive IRT experience, Iaido, FMA, Sparring with local schools, etc, etc.  He has a very broad based perspective that of course only helps his Budo Taijutsu.  Most of the senior practitioner's in the Bujinkan came into it with quite a bit of previous training in the Martial Sciences.  That of course only helped their perspective and also their training.


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## Kframe (Oct 1, 2013)

Well through out my day i find my self walking through my various mma striking and defenses. It seams i have silently added in the kata i was taught as well.  Ill never forget my mma, its got some great OH POOP defenses in it.


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## Kframe (Oct 1, 2013)

Im getting shredded on Traditional fighting arts forum.  They are making claims about Tanemura making up 5 of the arts, and one guy claims to have studied it for 2.5 years and then went on to arma and found it to be better. Saying he came back and challenged the instructor and he couldn't touch him. They are all using my mma against me, saying that because they don't free spar its ineffective.   Im probably going to have to sign off that forum, its causing doubts in my mind.  

I know what I saw, I saw a good program.  Taught by a good person.  

Screw them..


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 1, 2013)

Kframe said:


> They are making claims about Tanemura making up 5 of the arts...



I think you mean Takamatsu.  Takamatsu was Hatsumi's instructor.  Tanemura was a senior student of Hatsumi who broke away to start his own organization.

It is true that only 3 (I think) of the 9 arts contained within the Bujinkan can be verified to have existed before Takamatsu.  That doesn't necessarily mean Takamatsu invented them all himself.  He might have, or they might just have been very obscure, almost extinct traditions.  It is very probable that even if Takamatsu did not invent them then some of the lineages are exaggerated.

This really should only concern you if you are primarily concerned with studying a genuine ancient historical art.  The fact of the matter is that the martial arts in general are filled with highly inaccurate origin myths and historical flights of fancy.  If you are primarily training for self-defense, then your concern should be whether this school can help you develop usable skills in that respect.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 2, 2013)

Okay, this might take a bit...



Kframe said:


> Chris, Thank you for taking time to respond.  I didn't know that Goju was a modern style.  You mentioned 3 schools don't get taught much. I had read that those schools were things like castle building and other period centric material. I could have sworn read that one of those styles dealt with espionage and masquerading and map skills  and water skills.



Right. Firstly, Goju Ryu (Okinawan) is fairly traditional, Goju Kai (Japanese) a little more modern (a generation or two between them, with some questions about how much Goju Ryu was learned by Goju Kai's founder, but that's another discussion entirely), however what Dan does is takes some Goju, some Taiji, some other stuff, some made-up weapons use (that he calls traditional... that usage of Jo was a damn joke, and nothing like Japanese usage, let alone traditional), creating a modern eclectic system... in fact, far more than the Bujinkan or any other of the Ninjutsu organizations are. He's really not that informed on what traditional arts, or even Japanese arts, are actually like... at one point he lists what he considers a drawcard of the "Ninjutsu" systems being that there's "no long string of solo movements"... implying that that form of training is more "traditional". Uh, no, actually. It's a Chinese training device, transplanted to Okinawa, and found in modern Karate systems and related arts (such as TKD)... traditional Japanese arts are almost entirely shorter paired sequences. That's what traditional Japanese arts look like... Dan has no idea. And don't get me started on how off he was on Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu... being in Perth, I know exactly where he trained, and he understood nothing, and gets a lot wrong about the art itself. 



Kframe said:


> What's strange about that whole situation is that, coming from MMA I actually got a lot out that class. As I told Dan it took me along time to figure out that I learn better in more "drills" centric environment. (which I know its kata that I was doing. For me I have always called that kind of thing drills.)   I learned that I can not do anything slowly only fast and that I don't know the context of movements I was taught.(the modified karate I was studying)   I think my MMA experience was both a help and curse. Some things I was doing instinctively and others were like a foreign language. Things they teach that I did normally was tuck the chin and cover cheek with shoulder/bicep.



Just a small aside, there's a world of difference between drills and (traditional Japanese) kata, despite the superficial similarities between the two. Drills are simply skill builders (learn this footwork, develop your timing, work on your targeting, and so on), whereas kata are about teaching a tactical response. Ideally, you can use a drill to work on/learn a new kick/block/throw etc, but with a kata, you are learning a tactical response that happens to use that kick/block/throw. 



Kframe said:


> I can see the principals behind a lot of what I was show. Mostly basic things like the circular checks and the body movement while doing the punching drill.



Good. The principles are the important thing.



Kframe said:


> I had a feeling that his appraisal of their kata drilling system was flawed, because of all the things you and I have discussed, kata was one of them. A long time ago you showed me how Traditional Japanese Kata were different, and how they trained was different. I went into that class with those thoughts in the back of my mind. One thing I was surprised at was the solo kata/forms. I didn't know they did that. I thought that BBT had Partnered Kata? I cant remember the names of the kata but there was 5 basic ones that all fed into each other. I rather liked them more then what I have seen of the karate systems kata.



The vast majority of kata in the Bujinkan arts are paired, the Sanshin no Kata (the series of five, taken from Gyokko Ryu, representing five elements: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Void) are the best known exception. It sounds like you also did some of the Kihon Happo (fundamental techniques, also taken from the Gyokko Ryu, although there are some dojo that teach variations that come from other Ryu, such as Takagi Yoshin Ryu or Kukishin Ryu), specifically Omote Gyaku, and possibly Omote Gyaku Ura Gyaku Henka... those are more along the lines of the paired kata.



Kframe said:


> From what I was told the advanced class is higher speed then the lower level class I was at. With more pressure  and I would assume more complicated things. I know they have a regularly schedualed randori class. Can you tell me what I can expect from a BBT randori class? Say how would it differ or someone that is a 8th or 9th kyu vs someone that is a higher kyu like a 3rd-1st and above?



Nope. Can't tell you at all. And the main reason is that, particularly in the Bujinkan, there really isn't anything like a "standard" approach or structure... so the way it's structured there is based on the preferences and ideas of the instructor at that dojo. I know some that turn it into semi-MMA... others are closer to Aikido-style randori... some like to segment individual skill sets (say, throws, making it like Judo, or striking, or ground work, or weapon defence, or anything, really)... some don't do anything at all.



Kframe said:


> I wonder how the training looks like in the advanced class. 8th kyu and above. Dan has a problem with the nature of the beginners class being so slow. IDK I agree with the instructor who invited me to train there. He wanted the beginner class to be about perfecting the basics and technical skills. Like I said. I actually got a lot out of just that slow low class.  Cant wait to see what further training does for me.



Dan's not in the class. Ignore whatever he has a problem with, he doesn't have any real frame of reference to make comments.



Kframe said:


> What about his assessment of the Ninjato sword? It kind of makes sense to me. Wouldn't a ninja just get a shorter more straight katana? I would imagine such things existed.  As was noted in the wiki article.  I thought that ninja were also high ranking in society like the Samurai were? If that is the case they can afford to have a custom sword made.



The straight "ninja-to" has been known to be a fallacy for a long time... there's no real evidence for it existing, and there's no historical reason for it to have existed. The Togakure Ryu does feature a specialist blade, which is shorter than a "typical" (whatever that is) katana, but it's still a katana, it's still curved, and so on. The idea of a specialist sizing weapon isn't unique to this school, of course, many schools have had something unique to them over history, that just happens to be the one that Togakure Ryu uses. But you won't find a "straight ninja-to" in any legit schools... it's only found in the bogus, movie-based ones, such as the "Koga Ryu" schools. And, for the record, the only book by Hatsumi that mentions or refers to the weapon was ghost written by Hayes... Hatsumi didn't say anything of the kind... and the picture in the book is not a straight blade. So his comments about ignoring Hatsumi based on a wiki article that references him is, well, not exactly a fair statement.

Of course, reading from there, Dan goes in completely the wrong direction. He starts talking about the stick methods found in the Bujinkan, and states (in reference to Hatsumi and the Bojutsu of the Bujinkan) that: "He may well have founded a half-decent stick fighting discipline, but given that he almost certainly hasn't fought someone in a real battle with a staff (unlike the creators of the original staff systems of Okinawa/Japan)". Frankly, this just shows that he really is in no position to argue about the validity of anything. The staff work in the Bujinkan comes from the Kukishinden Ryu... which, despite the validy issues with other arts, is very much a historically verified art. It exists in a number of branches both within and without the "Ninjutsu" schools, and is most famous for it's bojutsu. Of everything in the Bujinkan, the two most unimpeachable aspects are the Jujutsu of Takagi Yoshin Ryu, and the Bojutsu of the Kukishinden Ryu. They are as legit as it gets in these areas, and Hatsumi created/founded nothing there. And, again, let's just remind ourselves of what we're referring to here...





(Dan's "Jo" work... interestingly, in a lot of his videos, he claims to be teaching Aikijo... which was created by Ueshiba, who never used a Jo in a "real battle"... but learned Bojutsu from some Kukishinden Ryu practitioners... hmm... but, for the record, it looks nothing like what is seen here. The distance is terrible, there's no power, no understanding of the weapon, it's just being swung around with no real concern. Not impressed)





(Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, here demonstrated by the Genbukan)



Kframe said:


> What is funny is the transition from mma to BBT. I never saw it coming. I thought I would MMA my way through all my martial needs. Then my mma gym drops the adult class and the other one folds up do to familial sickness and im left with out a place to train. Not being impressed with karate in my area and for all the reasons I laid out to Dan, I figured WTH ill give them a shot.
> 
> There was just something about it that felt good. I like that their was a solid weapons system in place covering most of my areas of interest. From swords to spears and sticks and bows and knives and even gun defense. LOL I cant wait to learn the throwing weapons just for the pure fun of them.



Fair enough, really.



Kframe said:


> Chris can you recommend any books and other things I can read and watch that can further help my knowledge of the art im getting into?



Books are good supplementary aids, as are videos, so they can be good to get you into the mindset and mentality... but, to be honest, I'd recommend more than anything else just listening to your teacher right now. Most of the resources make a lot more sense with some (physical) frames of reference.



Kframe said:


> I was hoping you guys could help me with some thing. I was trying to find videos of Bujinkan kicking techniques. Im trying to find videos so I can start working on that odd front kick. Its so different then the MT and karate front kicks im used to.  It starts off with the leg swinging straight, and it doesn't chamber until the end of the swing. Then it push's out. It is a push kick.  He described it like a rock on a string.
> 
> I have yet to find any good Youtube videos of it. Hoping you can help.



Yeah... same thing. Talk to your teacher. The only clip I know of that covers "Ninjutsu kicks" does such a bad job of it, including adding kicks that have no place in the system, that I don't want to recommend anything in case it leads you back to it, ha!



Kframe said:


> Thank you for the name drops Brian. Ill look them up.   You are correct, in that I should ask the instructor. I did infact do just that. I spent 45minutes talking about the art with him. His goal is to get 15th before Soke Hatsumi retires.  He just wants to pass on a quality martial art that people can defend them selves with and some good life lessons as well.  He did his best to explain how the technical progression works. I understand it a lot better. Some thing called Shu Ha RI. Right now im at Shu. Later ill be at the Ha, then later through diligent study RI.  I have been reading things by SOKE Hatsumi and my new instructor, they both mentioned that the RI part usually starts around 5th bb, or godan I think.  Which makes sense.


 
Not quite... but it's a large topic, and way above where you need to be thinking right now. Suffice to say that it becomes far more circular than linear.



Kframe said:


> Shu Ha Ri is a new concept for me, but not new if that makes sense. My former mma training was kinda like a fast tracked Shu ha ri. Just I didn't spend enough time in Shu or Ha.



Hmm... no, that's not correct. But, as I said, this is a large conversation, and well above the paygrade here... What you did in your MMA training was to learn a mechanical technique, then apply it in a free-response/free training method. That ain't Shu Ha Ri... in fact, if we were to apply such terminology, it's very much Shu. At best. 



Kframe said:


> My new instructor likes to teach variations of everything. So that you can still use a technique even if your not in the proper space to do it.


 
Constant variations (henka) are very much a hallmark of the Bujinkan. It has good and bad points, really... if it works for you, great.



Kframe said:


> I only have few questions left regarding this art. My main question is how does this art pressure test its self at higher levels. I forgot to ask that question in our conversation.     Can you guys enlighten me about how a good BBT school pressure tests its students skills?



How the art is pressure tested comes down to the instructor at the time, really. There is no single method, or even a consistent method used. As with much of this, if you want to know how it's trained/tested at your new dojo, you need to ask the instructor there.



Kframe said:


> Other then that, Im at the point were I have no real need to ask technical questions about such and such a technique. I have only to train, and I intend to train my *** off.



Good. Listen to what you're told, of course.



Kframe said:


> I do know this. I intend to use my mma skills to help my new friends In there training. Being a Good tori is important to me. If I can provide someone who can throw reasonably good boxing/mma punch's and kicks or them to practice against im happy to provide that.



Hmm... that I'd be less supportive of, honestly. You're there to learn how things are done in that school, not to "help the students". Listen and follow what you're told. Of course, if you're training a technique, and the instructor wants an "MMA-style" attack, go for it... but, unless that is specifically asked for, I'd suggest learning how it's done there as your priority. Oh, and a small terminology point, "tori" (literally: taker [of the technique]) is the person who performs the technique... Uke (literally: receiver [of the technique]) is the term for the "attacking" side, or the one who has the technique performed on them.



Kframe said:


> Im getting shredded on Traditional fighting arts forum.  They are making claims about Tanemura making up 5 of the arts, and one guy claims to have studied it for 2.5 years and then went on to arma and found it to be better. Saying he came back and challenged the instructor and he couldn't touch him. They are all using my mma against me, saying that because they don't free spar its ineffective.   Im probably going to have to sign off that forum, its causing doubts in my mind.
> 
> I know what I saw, I saw a good program.  Taught by a good person.
> 
> Screw them..



Send Dan here. I'll happily pull him to pieces. He's not in a position to comment or advise. 

Now, to this.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> As I stated before Chris you are a really knowledgeable practitioner and you do know your history of the Takumatsuden Arts very, very well. However, you are not a Bujinkan practitioner (currently) nor a Budo Taijutsu exponent. Not being current in Budo Taijutsu and a direct connection with Soke (through an instructor or yourself) hinders anyone's ability to fully convey everything correctly. Because of this there could be misinterpretation. (particularly in regards to training technique) It is no different than myself in that while I have a connection and I do train in Budo Taijutsu and am a current member. I simply cannot give every correct answer either as it is not the only system that I study. I can give pretty good answers and I can research with people who absolutely know the correct answer. (because I am connected) Yet I am not an expert on everything Budo Taijutsu, the Bujinkan or the Takumatsuden Arts! I will leave that to others who are Michael Asuncion, Phil Legare, Don Roley, Doug Wilson, Dale Seago, Paul Richardson, (many more westerners I just listed a few) and of course the Japanese Shihan and Hatsumi himself. Just clarifying where anyone training in the Bujinkan should get their information.



Frankly, Brian, this is hypocritical and downright insulting. In one thread (here) you're telling me that, despite having over 2 decades in these arts, including being a part of the Bujinkan for a number of years, having very close associations with members of the Bujinkan and other X-Kans, as well as having connections to other branches of some of the Ryu taught there, not only do I have, as you say, a lot of knowledge of the history of these arts (here's a clue, Brian, I know a hell of a lot more than just the histories here...), you (and others) have a need to negate what I say with comments like "his advice is not always spot on", or the above comments. In other words, you're saying that, despite two decades plus of direct contact and involvement, because my organization is no longer part of a group that has no consistency anyway, my comments don't have weight? I also note that when such things are said (by yourself here, by others in other places), there is never any actual contradiction or correction of anything I say... no negation of it, no argument, just a need to say that I'm not in the Bujinkan, so don't worry about what I say...? Seems rather pointless... if I'm wrong, point it out. If not, the idea that I'm not in the Bujinkan doesn't enter into it.

Then, in another thread (the one on Musashi), you're telling me that you know what your opinion is of Musashi (and what you call the "legend" surrounding him), which you got from people who have never studied Musashi, his art, or anything else related, hell, in one case, a friend who isn't even a martial arts practitioner of any form who gets his opinion listened to because he's Japanese (?!?), and therefore your opinion is more weighted, and you'll listen to your guys more than the people actually involved in Musashi's art and legacy? Seriously? I can't be giving correct information because I'm not part of the Bujinkan, but you won't listen to people who are connected to Musashi's legacy because you know better? Honestly, that's garbage. 

Oh, and for the record, there are some small and large issues with a number of the names you listed...



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Having said the above that certainly does not mean that either you or I can comment as we certainly have wisdom and or knowledge in this area. Just that as with everything there are experts and then there are the real experts!



And there's the false diplomacy again... but, frankly, garbage. The implication that, unless you're one of the people you mention, you can't have any idea what's going on is ludicrous, unrealistic, and insulting. To be frank, it's very easy to know what's going on with the Bujinkan. 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> In KFrames position his current instructor in the Bujinkan and Budo Taijutsu specifically is in the best position to answer any an all of his questions. (particularly as there is a less likelihood of misinterpretation talking with someone in person than online) I then would encourage him to slowly purchase Books and DVD's over time written by Hatsumi to get even a better understanding of this system. If history is what he is looking for Paul Richardson wrote a book that is a good start. Technique wise stick with the Books and DVD's written by Hatsumi Sensei and you cannot go wrong. Of course we can also give him advise here but the above is better than anything you or I can give him!



Actually, there's quite a few ways to go wrong with Hatsumi's books... and even more ways with the books. And if you want to know where that piece of information comes from, look to your list above....


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 2, 2013)

Chris, 

Do not try to hijack this thread like the Musashi thread.  The fact is with the Bujinkan and Budo Taijusut correctly it is important to be current and learning what is coming from the Hombu Dojo.  I am sorry that you cannot see this.  I am sure your teacher in Australia would feel the exact same thing regarding his system that he teaches.  If a past student came and started teaching they might be out of touch.  I know with what I do it would be that way as well.  

No false humility here.  I actually mean exactly what I say in regards to your knowledge.  You are very spot on in many circumstances and I think you are very knowledgeable. (ie. smart)   I just don't buy into the myth, legend of Musashi. (which is another thread and not this one)  One we have more than hashed over!!!


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## Kframe (Oct 2, 2013)

Chris parker thank you for taking time to help me.  Of the 2 Ukemi Gata we did, I was able to do the the forward roll but the rear one was impossible lol. Just couldn't get enough force behind my leg when I threw it up over my shoulder. 

Ya we did a little kihon happo.  It was Omote Gyaku and then that done in the opposite direction, with a arm bar takedown.(kinda cool to, nice and simple. At least I thought it was) 


Can you fill me in on Shu Ha Ri as it relates to martial arts? I get the first part learn the technique, but the wiki says the next part is leave the technique then destroy it. I was trying to think of a way I could apply that to some mma skill I have but I cant really think of a way to apply say the defensive inside fighting block or double arm block from boxing. 

That video of the Genbukan Bojutsu was cool.  Quick question though was he just intentionally hitting the wooden sword or was the guy with the wooden sword blocking shots and they would have hit him had he not blocked them? 

I have to remember not to attach so much importance to how people on the net feel about what im doing. I put way to much faith in one mans opinion. I think its time to end that little personal hangup I have. Time to experience things my self.


----------



## gregtca (Oct 3, 2013)

Kramer , this may help , 

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...uvwpspy70xqBj2B3Oe5Vhtw&bvm=bv.53537100,d.dGI


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## gapjumper (Oct 3, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Just a small aside, there's a world of difference between drills and (traditional Japanese) kata, despite the superficial similarities between the two. Drills are simply skill builders (learn this footwork, develop your timing, work on your targeting, and so on), whereas kata are about teaching a tactical response. Ideally, you can use a drill to work on/learn a new kick/block/throw etc, but with a kata, you are learning a tactical response that happens to use that kick/block/throw.



Indeed. It seems that some very basic concepts completely elude some people...






Chris Parker said:


> The vast majority of kata in the Bujinkan arts are paired, the Sanshin no Kata (the series of five, taken from Gyokko Ryu, representing five elements: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Void) are the best known exception. It sounds like you also did some of the Kihon Happo (fundamental techniques, also taken from the Gyokko Ryu, although there are some dojo that teach variations that come from other Ryu, such as Takagi Yoshin Ryu or Kukishin Ryu), specifically Omote Gyaku, and possibly Omote Gyaku Ura Gyaku Henka... those are more along the lines of the paired kata.



Although...sanshin is not _really_ the exception as it has paired _and_ solo parts.




Chris Parker said:


> Dan's not in the class. Ignore whatever he has a problem with, he doesn't have any real frame of reference to make comments.



Yes. I am unsure why this guy is so vocal on this topic. The problem is, by shouting so loud, he only makes it abundantly obvious he has zero knowledge of the things he talks about. Maybe he saw some bad school? Maybe he is unsure of his own lineage legitimacy, and so needs to point fingers so that nobody looks at him??





Chris Parker said:


> Of course, reading from there, Dan goes in completely the wrong direction. He starts talking about the stick methods found in the Bujinkan, and states (in reference to Hatsumi and the Bojutsu of the Bujinkan) that: "He may well have founded a half-decent stick fighting discipline, but given that he almost certainly hasn't fought someone in a real battle with a staff (unlike the creators of the original staff systems of Okinawa/Japan)". Frankly, this just shows that he really is in no position to argue about the validity of anything. The staff work in the Bujinkan comes from the Kukishinden Ryu... which, despite the validy issues with other arts, is very much a historically verified art. It exists in a number of branches both within and without the "Ninjutsu" schools, and is most famous for it's bojutsu. Of everything in the Bujinkan, the two most unimpeachable aspects are the Jujutsu of Takagi Yoshin Ryu, and the Bojutsu of the Kukishinden Ryu. They are as legit as it gets in these areas, and Hatsumi created/founded nothing there. And, again, let's just remind ourselves of what we're referring to here...



Now I am thinking he may have been told this by someone else...nobody could get facts so wrong from first-hand knowledge, surely! That really is rather embarrassing.




Chris Parker said:


> Hmm... no, that's not correct. But, as I said, this is a large conversation, and well above the paygrade here... What you did in your MMA training was to learn a mechanical technique, then apply it in a free-response/free training method. That ain't Shu Ha Ri... in fact, if we were to apply such terminology, it's very much Shu. At best.



Agreed.

And, Kframe, I really wouldn't worry about this for a _long_ time yet.






Chris Parker said:


> Send Dan here. I'll happily pull him to pieces. He's not in a position to comment or advise.



I'll make the popcorn :drinky:


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## gapjumper (Oct 3, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> To be frank, it's very easy to know what's going on with the Bujinkan.



I would HAVE to disagree with you there Chris. Even from the inside, it is all smoke and mirrors.

As it should be.


----------



## Kframe (Oct 3, 2013)

I am curious as just casually looking it appears as if the BBT has been evolving. In google searches I keep reading about how some things they do now were not done before. Things like the very basic ground work that it now has. I don't know the extent of its ground work but the instructor did demo some mount escapes(that were variations of things I have seen) and a guard pass.  

 Can anyone kinda give me a general over view of things that have changed or been added in the last say 10-15 years?


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## gapjumper (Oct 3, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I am curious as just casually looking it appears as if the BBT has been evolving. In google searches I keep reading about how some things they do now were not done before. Things like the very basic ground work that it now has. I don't know the extent of its ground work but the instructor did demo some mount escapes(that were variations of things I have seen) and a guard pass.
> 
> Can anyone kinda give me a general over view of things that have changed or been added in the last say 10-15 years?



Nothing as far as I know. However people may have learned new parts/aspects over time, and people think it is new. That doesn't mean it is new.

Without seeing the "groundwork" you mention it's hard to know if you are seeing stuff from the Bujinkan ryu-ha (which is certainly not new), or something else from another source that the teacher is showing...


Maybe you could give an example of something that you have seen said is new that did not used to exist in the Bujinkan?


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 3, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Of the 2 Ukemi Gata we did, I was able to do the the forward roll but the rear one was impossible lol. Just couldn't get enough force behind my leg when I threw it up over my shoulder.



It's not a matter of throwing your leg over your shoulder with force at all.  You should be able to do the backwards roll in super slow motion by curling yourself into a very tight ball and adjusting the angle of your head and shoulders.



			
				Kframe said:
			
		

> I am curious as just casually looking it appears as if the BBT has been evolving. In google searches I keep reading about how some things they do now were not done before. Things like the very basic ground work that it now has. I don't know the extent of its ground work but the instructor did demo some mount escapes(that were variations of things I have seen) and a guard pass.
> 
> Can anyone kinda give me a general over view of things that have changed or been added in the last say 10-15 years?



I trained in the Bujinkan from about 1984-1994 including regular classes, seminars with high-ranked teachers, reading every book and watching every video available.  In that time I never saw any real groundwork or heard any rumors of it even existing.  Hatsumi had a big hardback book out in Japanese which included a few oddball techniques from the ground, but no mount escapes or guard passing.

I've kept an curious eye on developments in the Bujinkan since I moved on and in the last decade or so I've started seeing some Bujinkan practitioners teaching groundfighting techniques.  Some may claim that the techniques were in the system all along and , just coincidentally, were only revealed around the same time that BJJ and MMA became popular.  The same sorts of claims have been made by some karate & kung fu instructors who never taught any ground techniques until the same time period.  I'll let you draw your own conclusions.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 3, 2013)

Hey Tony,

Hatsumi Sensei has shown some ground work and even has a DVD out with some ground technique though the overall dvd was not geared towards grappling. (though the dvd escapes me at this moment)  Nor would you say it looked like BJJ, Judo,  Wrestling, etc.

In my opinion which is not the norm though I believe that the best way to learn grappling is from a system that is geared directly towards it like BJJ.  I also feel that BJJ is a great system to train alongside Budo Taijutsu.  However, I know I am in the minority on this.  Simon Yeo in the UK trains in the Bujinkan and also does BJJ.  There are actually a good amount of people in the Bujinkan also cross training in other systems.  Though they typically start after having trained in Budo Taijutsu for quite a while.   Daniel Weidman has extensive training with Gokar Chivnchyan.  He taught me this sweet Heel Hook when he stopped by my house:  






One thing that is for sure is that Hatsumi Sensei continues to grow as a martial practitioner and if you are not training with him or someone who regularly trains with him then you will miss the feel of his training and also where he is taking the Bujinkan.  I think this is similar to training with any martial practitioner who is working hard to improve.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 3, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> One thing that is for sure is that Hatsumi Sensei continues to grow as a martial practitioner and if you are not training with him or someone who regularly trains with him then you will miss the feel of his training and also where he is taking the Bujinkan.  I think this is similar to training with any martial practitioner who is working hard to improve.



I think it's clear that BBT is Hatsumi's modern synthesis of everything that he has learned and that it continues to evolve.  I have no problems with that.  If a practitioner wants to keep up with where Hatsumi is taking the art, then he/she should definitely train with an instructor who has an ongoing connection to the grandmaster.

What I do have a problem with is people taking Hatsumi's latest invention and insisting that it has been in this ancient tradition for centuries or that you can't know what is in the 9 traditional disciplines unless you maintain that permanent connection to Hatsumi.  Hatsumi trained with Takamatsu for a total of 15 years on weekends.  At this point there are a number of students who have trained with Hatsumi for much longer than that (including some of those who have broken away).  If Hatsumi is still putting out new techniques, then either he is a terrible teacher who has been holding back information from his students for decades or else it's new material that he has created.  I'm inclined to think it's the latter.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 3, 2013)

Tony,

I think everyone evolves in their training and teaching.  I know I do and I am sure that you do as well.  Why would it be any different for anyone else!


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 3, 2013)

Brian - I have no disagreement with that.  If Hatsumi wants to add brand-new material to his art, that's fine with me.  If Hatsumi has new insights into the original material he learned from Takamatsu, that's cool as well.

My only complaint comes if Hatsumi reveals new material decades after Takamatsu's death and his followers claim that said material was in the original curriculum that Takamatsu taught.  (For the record, I have no idea whether Hatsumi himself has claimed the new techniques come from Takamatsu or not.)


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 3, 2013)

I have not heard anyone claiming anything like that.  Certainly not from Hatsumi Sensei.


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## Kframe (Oct 3, 2013)

I have been thinking I think I know were his basic ground defense came from. I forgot but on his website he lists that he has been  a Infantry soldier for the last 11 years. During class he mentioned army MACP. Which while going over it online I discovered it amounts to about a white belt to blue belt bjj program similar to the Gracie Academy Gracie combatives. https://www.gracieuniversity.com/course.aspx?enc=AbyD5UD1jYKJsZAlGSK5IQ==  I knew some of the ground stuff looked familiar.


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## Troy Wideman (Oct 4, 2013)

Hi Kframe,

A while back you asked a question about the bojutsu video that Shihan Wright was demonstrating from the Genbukan. The uke is blocking the strikes, there is one part where Shihan Wright purposely strikes the bokken in one of the patterns. The pattern where he thrusted and hit the Do protector, he actually cracked and put a whole, lol. Good luck with your training.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Kframe (Oct 4, 2013)

So had the uke not blocked most of those strikes he would have been hit for real? Well tapped as im sure he would not have killed him lol.  Now I have only watched a few videos but from what I have seen I don't see much in the way of solo form bo twirling that I see a lot of other styles doing.  I honestly cant wait to get into it.   Though I will likely have to let go of my desire to do a cage fight. As it does not fit with the beliefs and values of the style or school.   I hope that some day I can be tested. Physically and technically.


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## jks9199 (Oct 4, 2013)

Kframe said:


> So had the uke not blocked most of those strikes he would have been hit for real? Well tapped as im sure he would not have killed him lol.  Now I have only watched a few videos but from what I have seen I don't see much in the way of solo form bo twirling that I see a lot of other styles doing.  I honestly cant wait to get into it.   Though I will likely have to let go of my desire to do a cage fight. As it does not fit with the beliefs and values of the style or school.   I hope that some day I can be tested. Physically and technically.



Your first sentence gets the idea of the paired kata, at first.  Unlike a lot of the one-step sparring type of things you see, where the attacker feeds a technique that's not in range and wouldn't hurt the defender, if these sorts of kata are done properly, there's a real chance of being hit.  (This extends to drilling, too, and I'm not saying that there aren't people doing one-step sparring in a way that they may well be hit...)  At the beginning level, everything will stay on script.  But as the skill and familiarity with the technique increases, the partner (usually senior) will change the feed, or take advantage of weaknesses and errors in execution, forcing the receiver to adapt to the change.  That's where the pressure testing for this training method comes in...


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 5, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Chris,
> 
> Do not try to hijack this thread like the Musashi thread.  The fact is with the Bujinkan and Budo Taijusut correctly it is important to be current and learning what is coming from the Hombu Dojo.  I am sorry that you cannot see this.  I am sure your teacher in Australia would feel the exact same thing regarding his system that he teaches.  If a past student came and started teaching they might be out of touch.  I know with what I do it would be that way as well.


 
Garbage, Brian. In one thread, you're saying that you're "open minded" because you're listening to people unrelated to the actual subject matter, therefore you have a better idea of what you think reality is, here you tell me that, despite very, very close association, because I'm not currently connected to one organization, my comments aren't to be taken as informed. That's damn hypocritical. I don't claim to be teaching Budo Taijutsu (and, I'm going to be completely blunt here, I'm damn happy to not be), nor do I claim to be a part of the Bujinkan. I do, however, have experience and exposure to the Bujinkan (and related organizations, which helps understand the Bujinkan far more, honestly), and far more, which does place me in a position to be able to answer questions here... in some cases, far more accurately than you can, I'd say. It's just important to recognize what those cases are. I'd also point out that your comments came before I even came here to post anything... and nothing I've said has been contradicted or questioned (other than one case, which I'm going to respond to later... hey, Gapjumper!)... so what the point of saying I'm not part of the Bujinkan was, when the information I present (again, up to that point, there hadn't been any at all) fits what is known.

This isn't hijacking, it's dealing with your comments about me, and my ability to add to the conversation, Brian. 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> No false humility here.  I actually mean exactly what I say in regards to your knowledge.  You are very spot on in many circumstances and I think you are very knowledgeable. (ie. smart)   I just don't buy into the myth, legend of Musashi. (which is another thread and not this one)  One we have more than hashed over!!!



False diplomacy, Brian. You basically said "We all have good things to say, but you're (my) comments aren't really to be taken as correct or accurate". That's very false diplomacy, really. The Musashi conversation was tangental, and not related to my comment there.

Right, we'll get back to the rest of this.



Kframe said:


> Chris parker thank you for taking time to help me.  Of the 2 Ukemi Gata we did, I was able to do the the forward roll but the rear one was impossible lol. Just couldn't get enough force behind my leg when I threw it up over my shoulder.



Ha, as Tony said, it's not about force with the leg... if you want to focus on strength somewhere, look to your core... situps are your friend... kinda...  



Kframe said:


> Ya we did a little kihon happo.  It was Omote Gyaku and then that done in the opposite direction, with a arm bar takedown.(kinda cool to, nice and simple. At least I thought it was)


 
Cool. I was actually teaching Omote Gyaku this week... a few variations from a couple of the Ryu, lots of fun.



Kframe said:


> Can you fill me in on Shu Ha Ri as it relates to martial arts? I get the first part learn the technique, but the wiki says the next part is leave the technique then destroy it. I was trying to think of a way I could apply that to some mma skill I have but I cant really think of a way to apply say the defensive inside fighting block or double arm block from boxing.



For an explanation, no-one says it better than Wayne Muromoto, so I would link you to his blog... except Greg has beaten me to it! So, uh, here, what Greg said: 



gregtca said:


> Kramer , this may help ,
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...uvwpspy70xqBj2B3Oe5Vhtw&bvm=bv.53537100,d.dGI



I will add (regarding the second half of your comment) that thinking about different ways to apply things is really not what it's about at all... this is the issue with doing variations for variations sake (henka [variations] are not "ri"... although some seem to think it is). The "ha" aspect is more about finding your way of expressing the methods of the system... which is a subtle but giant difference... as many things are.



Kframe said:


> That video of the Genbukan Bojutsu was cool.  Quick question though was he just intentionally hitting the wooden sword or was the guy with the wooden sword blocking shots and they would have hit him had he not blocked them?



Troy has answered this one already, so I'll just add that what is seen isn't always what there is... not all of the blocks are always blocks... not all of the targets are actually the targets... different systems have different methods that they use, finding someone who knows what's what is part of the search...



Kframe said:


> So had the uke not blocked most of those strikes he would have been hit for real? Well tapped as im sure he would not have killed him lol. Now I have only watched a few videos but from what I have seen I don't see much in the way of solo form bo twirling that I see a lot of other styles doing. I honestly cant wait to get into it. Though I will likely have to let go of my desire to do a cage fight. As it does not fit with the beliefs and values of the style or school. I hope that some day I can be tested. Physically and technically.



When kata is done properly, yes, he would have been hit for real. That's a big part of the point (as JKS indicated). When it comes to the "solo bo twirling", what should be remembered is that Okinawan and Chinese methods feature more solo work, Japanese tend towards paired forms.

But, yeah, we're not geared up for cage fights... a fairly different context.



Kframe said:


> I have to remember not to attach so much importance to how people on the net feel about what im doing. I put way to much faith in one mans opinion. I think its time to end that little personal hangup I have. Time to experience things my self.



Ha, good plan.



gapjumper said:


> Indeed. It seems that some very basic concepts completely elude some people...



I'm not so sure I'd class it as a basic concept... fundamental, sure, but not necessarily basic... eh, semantics...



gapjumper said:


> Although...sanshin is not _really_ the exception as it has paired _and_ solo parts.



Oh, I'm aware of that... however, it's the exception in that the rest of the syllabus is almost entirely paired kata (no solo form - although, of course, you can train them solo should you wish, they're not designed that way).



gapjumper said:


> Yes. I am unsure why this guy is so vocal on this topic. The problem is, by shouting so loud, he only makes it abundantly obvious he has zero knowledge of the things he talks about. Maybe he saw some bad school? Maybe he is unsure of his own lineage legitimacy, and so needs to point fingers so that nobody looks at him??



There's a lot of indicators I see, but no need to get too far into that... 



gapjumper said:


> Now I am thinking he may have been told this by someone else...nobody could get facts so wrong from first-hand knowledge, surely! That really is rather embarrassing.



Oh, words that come to my mind... hmm...



gapjumper said:


> Agreed.
> 
> And, Kframe, I really wouldn't worry about this for a _long_ time yet.



Honestly, there's a lot that I wouldn't worry about for a long time... the priority needs to be the guidance your instructor is giving you at this point... things will make more sense when you have more exposure. In many cases, this comes down to the idea of esoteric knowledge... in essence, esoteric knowledge is knowledge that can only be understood when you have some required knowledge/experience to refer to.


gapjumper said:


> I'll make the popcorn :drinky:



Ha, well, we'll need to wait to see if he jumps over... as he's running his own forum, I don't think it's likely... especially considering the way he runs it.



gapjumper said:


> I would HAVE to disagree with you there Chris. Even from the inside, it is all smoke and mirrors.
> 
> As it should be.



Hmm... honestly, it seems that way from the inside... 



Kframe said:


> I am curious as just casually looking it appears as if the BBT has been evolving. In google searches I keep reading about how some things they do now were not done before. Things like the very basic ground work that it now has. I don't know the extent of its ground work but the instructor did demo some mount escapes(that were variations of things I have seen) and a guard pass.
> 
> Can anyone kinda give me a general over view of things that have changed or been added in the last say 10-15 years?



Honestly, that'd take quite a long time... and, frankly, it's not that relevant. As a current student, at this point it's more important what you get shown now.



gapjumper said:


> Nothing as far as I know. However people may have learned new parts/aspects over time, and people think it is new. That doesn't mean it is new.
> 
> Without seeing the "groundwork" you mention it's hard to know if you are seeing stuff from the Bujinkan ryu-ha (which is certainly not new), or something else from another source that the teacher is showing...



And... which Ryu would you say has groundwork (ne waza) there? I'm not saying that ne waza hasn't been a part of the Bujinkan (Budo Taijutsu) for a while... but that also doesn't mean it's from any of the Ryu-ha...



gapjumper said:


> Maybe you could give an example of something that you have seen said is new that did not used to exist in the Bujinkan?



I think that might depend on what is seen as being "in the Bujinkan"...



Brian R. VanCise said:


> I have not heard anyone claiming anything like that.  Certainly not from Hatsumi Sensei.



Really? I have... quite a bit....


----------



## Kframe (Oct 5, 2013)

Thanks all for the help.  Part of my problem with that rear roll is that my gut is in the way. I know the answer to that is to loose it. I am, its just going to take time. 100lbs down 100lbs to go.(no surgery either or drugs)   I managed to do it once on my own, but I didn't end up facing in the same direction I ended up looking 90degrees to one side.  Im starting to think there is a straight backwards roll as well, one that leaves you facing the same direction you started in. 

I was thinking about shuhari. Thank you for the link.   It seams like, it would be doing my boxing blocks with my own style, then using those principals to create my own covers.  Sounds like a interesting project. 

Chris, If I may ask, why did you leave the BBT? I know there can be great variation from  instructor to instructor, and quality of students produced. Is it more of a inter BBT political thing then a technical problem with the syllabus?  Im just curious, as just looking at the school I found, the instructor clearly knows what he is doing. Clearly is passionate. I get the impression that I manged to luck into a quality school.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 5, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Thanks all for the help.  Part of my problem with that rear roll is that my gut is in the way. I know the answer to that is to loose it. I am, its just going to take time. 100lbs down 100lbs to go.(no surgery either or drugs)   I managed to do it once on my own, but I didn't end up facing in the same direction I ended up looking 90degrees to one side.  Im starting to think there is a straight backwards roll as well, one that leaves you facing the same direction you started in.



Ha, yeah, the koho kaiten should have you ending facing the same direction as you started...  



Kframe said:


> I was thinking about shuhari. Thank you for the link.   It seams like, it would be doing my boxing blocks with my own style, then using those principals to create my own covers.  Sounds like a interesting project.



Uh... no. That's closer to the "take some of this, put it with that, and create something new", not really anything to do with shu ha ri (and something that Wayne mentions in the blog as an error), but again, you're way too early into this to start worrying about it yet... esoteric knowledge and all that...  



Kframe said:


> Chris, If I may ask, why did you leave the BBT? I know there can be great variation from  instructor to instructor, and quality of students produced. Is it more of a inter BBT political thing then a technical problem with the syllabus?  Im just curious, as just looking at the school I found, the instructor clearly knows what he is doing. Clearly is passionate. I get the impression that I manged to luck into a quality school.



From your descriptions, yeah, I'd say that you've found a good school... I quite like the descriptions you've given. With our leaving of the Bujinkan, that was a combination of a number of things, and I'm not getting into that publicly... although, if you're interested, I'm happy to PM the story to you. Just give me a little while, my messages are currently over-full... and I'm trying to see what I want to delete to make room to answer a couple of others first. Give it a couple of days, yeah?


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## Kframe (Oct 5, 2013)

No problem, I understand. 

Since Im not starting till November(got stuff to take care of first)  I am practicing the 5 kata he showed me, and the basic punching drill and the rolls.  The forward roll is no problem, I need more advice on the rear one. I tried to do it from my back and still same problem. It raining out, or id go out side and start flopping on the grass.  I was told to try to roll over my right shoulder while raising my left leg over my right shoulder.  I would like to at least beable to have this down when get to my second class..


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 5, 2013)

*No false diplomacy of hypocrisy on my part here Chris*. (and you are starting to hijack this thread as well)   I actually do believe you are knowledgeable.  Unfortunately since you do not train in Budo Taijutsu and are not in the Buijinkan I do not believe you are in the best position to have any idea what is currently going on in it!  Sorry but that is the way I see it!  How long ago did your instructor leave the Bujinkan?  How long have you personally been out of the Bujinkan?  If you are not training with Hatsumi Sensei or an instructor that currently trains with him how can you be current with the flow of what is going on in it. * Simply, you can't! * Doesn't mean you can't have an opinion just that it might not be right.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 5, 2013)

I think you will find that as you practice your backward roll more and more it will become substantially easier.  That and some correction from your instructor!


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 6, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *No false diplomacy of hypocrisy on my part here Chris*.



Yes, Brian, there is both false diplomacy and hypocrisy. You claim that "we all have something worth listening to" (diplomatic language/diplomacy), then follow that almost immediately by saying that what I might offer isn't really worth listening to (which negates the diplomatic comment, making it false). As for hypocrisy, you state that (in one moment) you know better because you're not listening to people intimately involved, and then immediately turn around and say that I can't know what's going on because I'm not intimately involved. That's a damn double standard, and hypocrisy. If you don't want to acknowledge it, fine... but hell, I'm only using your words here.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> (and you are starting to hijack this thread as well)


 
Well, as you started this line of reasoning (before I even joined this thread), I don't think I can really be blamed for firstly defending my status and validity, and then continuing to defend against your abject denials of your own words. 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> I actually do believe you are knowledgeable.



Well, there's the diplomacy again...



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Unfortunately since you do not train in Budo Taijutsu and are not in the Buijinkan I do not believe you are in the best position to have any idea what is currently going on in it!


 
... and the negation of it. Again. Really, you should pick a single message and stick to it. This all comes across as inconsistent... which has it's own issues. But, more to the point, if you can't actually show where I'm not correct, what reasoning do you have for trying to undermine comments I hadn't even made yet?



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Sorry but that is the way I see it!


 
Don't apologize if you don't mean it... nor if you don't know what you're apologizing for.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> How long ago did your instructor leave the Bujinkan?  How long have you personally been out of the Bujinkan?


 
The answer to both is the same, a bit over a decade. But, more importantly, my contact with the Bujinkan remains to today, on a range of different levels.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> If you are not training with Hatsumi Sensei or an instructor that currently trains with him how can you be current with the flow of what is going on in it. * Simply, you can't!*


Remind me to talk to you about emic versus etic knowledge, Brian... and, bluntly, with the amount of information/resources that are put out there, it's easy to see the "current flow". But that's not something I've addressed (except to say that the most important thing Kframe can do is to listen to his new teacher right now... any argument with that?), so I can't see what your point is...



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Doesn't mean you can't have an opinion just that it might not be right.



Rich... you might want to remember this, Brian.


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## Kframe (Oct 6, 2013)

I appreciate all of you guys help. Im at the point were questions are not needed. I have only to train.  I will keep the community updated on my progress as time unfolds. 

Off topic, I found a BJJ course that has part time admissions. I can only afford 1 full time school, so I think training part time in BJJ to sharpen my ground skills will be handy.

I can tell there is some tension in the air.  The reason I wanted your advice both you and Chris Parker is because you both have a good understanding of Japanase arts in general. What does it matter if Chris is or is not up to date with the lastest Yari training progression or what have you. You and he are more then capable of giving me the gist of what it is like to train, the history and what not. Its all I have asked for. No need for discourse. I thank and appreciate all of you.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 6, 2013)

Thanks KFrame.  Keep training and have fun.


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## Kframe (Oct 6, 2013)

I will say this. I am kind of bummed about one thing regarding the Bunjinkan, and that is they don't teach the silent walking and stealth stuff any more.  LOL.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 9, 2013)

See, that's the thing with the Bujinkan... you can't make statements like that... While such skills might not be taught (presently) at your current dojo, that doesn't mean that they're not taught in the Bujinkan. I know of a couple of teachers that refuse to teach them due to the lack of (perceived) need and the potential for them to be used for less than savoury purposes, I know of some who will teach them, but on a case-by-case basis, I know of some who teach it as part of a historical study, some who teach them as modern applications, some who know them and don't teach them, some who don't know them and purport to, and some who don't teach them because they don't know them.

You may also find that a particular teacher might offer such skills to more senior students, but doesn't mention them (or even denies them) early on in order to weed out certain types of students... so I wouldn't necessarily rule it out even of your new dojo yet. Oh, and for the record, I've taught such skills myself... both as historical study, and in a more modern context/application, for differing reasons. It's not a common area of study... but it's there, if you can find it.


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## gapjumper (Oct 9, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> I'm not so sure I'd class it as a basic concept... fundamental, sure, but not necessarily basic... eh, semantics...



Ah yes...such an easlity misunderstood term, "basic". Indeed, fundamental/foundation is a better word in this case. But as a wonderfully self assured and vocal person...you would assume he at least understood some fundamental foundational basics 





Chris Parker said:


> Oh, I'm aware of that... however, it's the exception in that the rest of the syllabus is almost entirely paired kata (no solo form - although, of course, you can train them solo should you wish, they're not designed that way).



Aye that





Chris Parker said:


> There's a lot of indicators I see, but no need to get too far into that...



Not yet anyway.






Chris Parker said:


> Honestly, there's a lot that I wouldn't worry about for a long time... the priority needs to be the guidance your instructor is giving you at this point... things will make more sense when you have more exposure. In many cases, this comes down to the idea of esoteric knowledge... in essence, esoteric knowledge is knowledge that can only be understood when you have some required knowledge/experience to refer to.



Bingo!




Chris Parker said:


> Ha, well, we'll need to wait to see if he jumps over... as he's running his own forum, I don't think it's likely... especially considering the way he runs it.



The miserable have no other medicine
But only hope.
~Shakespeare



Chris Parker said:


> Hmm... honestly, it seems that way from the inside...







Chris Parker said:


> And... which Ryu would you say has groundwork (ne waza) there? I'm not saying that ne waza hasn't been a part of the Bujinkan (Budo Taijutsu) for a while... but that also doesn't mean it's from any of the Ryu-ha...



Ah, no, what I meant was witjout seeing the waza, and what was being described/considered as "groundwork", it would be difficult to know if it was from the schools of the Bujinkan, "made up" stuff, something that soke has showed or not, or something from the teacher who has learned it elsewhere and is showing it in a "Bujinkan" class.

If he is meaning BJJ-esque I am guessing the instructor learned it from...BJJ

If by "groundwork", he is meaning waza that do not start from standing up then there is plenty, as you know. And always has been...nothing has been added

If he is meaning restraint techniques, then there is that too. And always has been...nothing has been added.


Problems arise when people (western teachers, often with little ability and limited training) show things from other sources and present it as "Bujinkan". Maybe to cover gaps in their knowledge. Maybe they just forget to make it clear that it is not Bujinkan. 

Some just think they can make stuff up.


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## gapjumper (Oct 9, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I trained in the Bujinkan from about 1984-1994 including regular classes, seminars with high-ranked teachers, reading every book and watching every video available. In that time I never saw any real groundwork or heard any rumors of it even existing. Hatsumi had a big hardback book out in Japanese which included a few oddball techniques from the ground, but no mount escapes or guard passing.



So someone is teaching "guard passing" as a bujinkan thing? If a westerner then it is probably BS, *if *they are saying it is from the 9 schools. If soke showed something similar it could be using the taijutsu priciples/mechanics, but would not name the waza and pretend it is from the schools. I somehow doubt it.




Tony Dismukes said:


> I've kept an curious eye on developments in the Bujinkan since I moved on and in the last decade or so I've started seeing some Bujinkan practitioners teaching groundfighting techniques. Some may claim that the techniques were in the system all along and , just coincidentally, were only revealed around the same time that BJJ and MMA became popular. The same sorts of claims have been made by some karate & kung fu instructors who never taught any ground techniques until the same time period. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.



There is a difference between "made up" and "not previously taught"

In the early days soke taught things under the umbrella term of togakure ryu, when in fact it came from other sources within the schools. Look at the TCJRNM, it only contains snippets (at best!) from each school, not the shoden, chuden etc etc etc of each school. Another example is "koku", originally shown on the "togakure ryu" videos, but does NOT appear in the togakure ryu densho. However it is the first kata from the Joryaku no maki level of gyokko ryu.



Can you give an example of some technique, by name or just by description/video that you have seen presented as explicitly Bujinkan that you believe to have been "added" around the time BJJ became popular?


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## Chris Parker (Oct 9, 2013)

gapjumper said:


> Ah, no, what I meant was witjout seeing the waza, and what was being described/considered as "groundwork", it would be difficult to know if it was from the schools of the Bujinkan, "made up" stuff, something that soke has showed or not, or something from the teacher who has learned it elsewhere and is showing it in a "Bujinkan" class.
> 
> If he is meaning BJJ-esque I am guessing the instructor learned it from...BJJ
> 
> ...



Well, the description was "some mount escapes and some guard passes"... which doesn't match anything in any of the Ryu-ha (the closest would be one or two kata from Bokuden Ryu, not officially taught...), so I think we have some idea of what form the "groundwork" took. And remember, suwarigata are not ne waza... nor are osae komi/kime waza... while they appear in the Ryu-ha, ne waza does not. And, for the record, there's plenty that Hatsumi has "made up" or "added"... and there's no problem with that either, provided it's understood what it is that's being shown, which isn't always the case.... as Tony said.


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## gapjumper (Oct 9, 2013)

"Made up"?

Or spur-of-the-moment, based soundly on the fundamental priciples?

Do you have an example? I might be misunderstanding you both/all.


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## gapjumper (Oct 9, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> I think we have some idea of what form the "groundwork" took. And remember, suwarigata are not ne waza... nor are osae komi/kime waza... while they appear in the Ryu-ha, ne waza does not.



Which was why I was seeking clarification of what exactly was meant and what he had been shown.

I ad not read the original closely and thought the poster was implying that guard passing and mount escapes were just a couple of the things he had been shown, but not all. As he comes from MMA/BJJ I considered it possible he was drawing from his previous learning and comparing the waza to the closest thing he has seen previously, even though it could vary hugely in purpose.


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 9, 2013)

gapjumper said:


> So someone is teaching "guard passing" as a bujinkan thing? If a westerner then it is probably BS, *if *they are saying it is from the 9 schools. If soke showed something similar it could be using the taijutsu priciples/mechanics, but would not name the waza and pretend it is from the schools. I somehow doubt it.



Well, for the record, I've seen Hatsumi teaching things like guard passing (and variants upon that), as well as other teachers in the Bujinkan, but are you saying that if a Westerner showed it, it's BS, but if Hatsumi did it, it's fine? Seems a  bit of a double standard... what if the Westerner teaches it as an application of the principles/riai/heiho of, say, Shinden Fudo Ryu, but Hatsumi teaches it as part of Shinden Fudo Ryu, but ignoring the riai/heiho of the Ryu? Which is BS then? How about if the Westerner has trained in BJJ to gain an understanding of the context of the ground as a range, as well as gain an understanding of what works and what doesn't, and then goes on to adapt those mechanics to the Ryu they're exploring? Is it still BS? Is it still BJJ? Or is it now more Budo Taijutsu, as it's been imported and adapted to fit the framework, even though it wasn't expressly from Japan?

The idea of it being a Westerner, therefore it's BS, I feel is a dangerous concept to cling to... especially considering some recent announcements, and the implications for the future... I mean, I've seen Japanese instructors at the highest level completely miss the principles of the Ryu they're meant to be showing... so to assume that, just because they're Japanese, they're getting it right, but Westerners aren't, is just going to lead you to miss what's really happening...



gapjumper said:


> There is a difference between "made up" and "not previously taught"



Now, that takes us into a range of controversial concepts...



gapjumper said:


> In the early days soke taught things under the umbrella term of togakure ryu, when in fact it came from other sources within the schools. Look at the TCJRNM, it only contains snippets (at best!) from each school, not the shoden, chuden etc etc etc of each school. Another example is "koku", originally shown on the "togakure ryu" videos, but does NOT appear in the togakure ryu densho. However it is the first kata from the Joryaku no maki level of gyokko ryu.



Except that's a completely different idea, and completely misses the point.

While it's true that the Togakure Ryu name was originally used to refer to the entire collection of material found in what's now called the Bujinkan, the reason for that was that Togakure Ryu was the first Ryu that Hatsumi was granted Soke-ship of (1968, he then promptly awarded Menkyo Kaiden to Tanemura and Manaka... Hatsumi himself was awarded Menkyo Kaiden in the Ryu in 1959, less than two years after meeting Takamatsu), so that was the "titular Ryu" for what he taught. It should be remembered that, at that point, Hatsumi was realistically running a training group for Takamatsu, rather than necessarily teaching under his own authority... with his being awarded Sokeship of Togakure Ryu, he was then able to do things under his own authority. Same as with Toda's dojo using the Shinden Fudo Ryu name, but multiple arts being taught (albeit apparently not particularly openly), or the Shinto Muso Ryu being the titular Ryu, with Ittatsu Ryu, Ikkaku Ryu, Uchida Ryu, Isshin Ryu, and Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu all being taught there, the idea that Togakure Ryu was used as a single name, even if what was being taught wasn't completely from that Ryu, isn't an issue. On the other hand, the teaching of things like Iai, which is not found in any of the Ryu (except in the claims of a very few in the Bujinkan... no other lines contain such waza... and the claims made are not verifiable in any meaningful way), would be more an example of something being added, or created... same with a range of other methods...

As far as the Ten Chi Jin, Koku etc, that's really besides the point... again, those videos date from the usage of the term "Togakure Ryu" to refer to all the teachings. "Bujinkan" was originally the name for Hatsumi's personal dojo only... it only later was used to apply to a larger group of dojo's, beginning with Hayes' move back to the US from Japan. Since then, Hatsumi's personal dojo has been named the "Bujinden", of course, and the application of the Togakure Ryu name has been removed as an overall title.



gapjumper said:


> Can you give an example of some technique, by name or just by description/video that you have seen presented as explicitly Bujinkan that you believe to have been "added" around the time BJJ became popular?



Honestly, I'd show you pretty much any Kacem Zoughari clip... nothing to do with BJJ/groundwork, but still quite a bit that seems added... to say the least.


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 9, 2013)

gapjumper said:


> "Made up"?
> 
> Or spur-of-the-moment, based soundly on the fundamental priciples?
> 
> Do you have an example? I might be misunderstanding you both/all.



See the additional material on the Ken Tachi Katana DVD, or on the Naginata Nagamaki Bisento DVD... many things on the Naginata/Daisho Sabaki Daikomyosai (1995)... 



gapjumper said:


> Which was why I was seeking clarification of what exactly was meant and what he had been shown.
> 
> I ad not read the original closely and thought the poster was implying that guard passing and mount escapes were just a couple of the things he had been shown, but not all. As he comes from MMA/BJJ I considered it possible he was drawing from his previous learning and comparing the waza to the closest thing he has seen previously, even though it could vary hugely in purpose.



Ha, cool.


----------



## gapjumper (Oct 9, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Well, for the record, I've seen Hatsumi teaching things like guard passing (and variants upon that), as well as other teachers in the Bujinkan, but are you saying that if a Westerner showed it, it's BS, but if Hatsumi did it, it's fine?



Nope, and that is not what I said. It's certainly not what I meant. I meant westerners may present non-bujinkan material and claim it is bujinkan.




Chris Parker said:


> Seems a bit of a double standard... what if the Westerner teaches it as an application of the principles/riai/heiho of, say, Shinden Fudo Ryu, but Hatsumi teaches it as part of Shinden Fudo Ryu, but ignoring the riai/heiho of the Ryu? Which is BS then? How about if the Westerner has trained in BJJ to gain an understanding of the context of the ground as a range, as well as gain an understanding of what works and what doesn't, and then goes on to adapt those mechanics to the Ryu they're exploring? Is it still BS? Is it still BJJ? Or is it now more Budo Taijutsu, as it's been imported and adapted to fit the framework, even though it wasn't expressly from Japan?



Again no.

If someone teaches BJJ in a Bujinkan class and lets people know where it is from, that is fine. To claim it is from the schools is wrong.

If someone bases a demo on the priciples of, say, SDFR then that is ok (probably, if they really understand those priciples), but claiming it as an actual named waza in the densho would be incorrect.

Si Yeo for instance teaches both BJK and BJJ but clearly separates the class into two sections. 

People fitting things to the framework is often an issue...do they really know the "framework"?





Chris Parker said:


> The idea of it being a Westerner, therefore it's BS, I feel is a dangerous concept to cling to... especially considering some recent announcements, and the implications for the future... I mean, I've seen Japanese instructors at the highest level completely miss the principles of the Ryu they're meant to be showing... so to assume that, just because they're Japanese, they're getting it right, but Westerners aren't, is just going to lead you to miss what's really happening...





I was not making that point that anything from a westerner is BS. I apologise that I have not been understood on this point. Being Japanese is no validation, there are some very poor Japanese. I guess I may have had specific people in mind as I wrote something that you took to mean that! 







Chris Parker said:


> Except that's a completely different idea, and completely misses the point.



Really, because what you then type seems to be kinda the same point I was trying to make. My post was not aimed at yourself, remember, but at others in the thread who may, like AC, be unaware of the naming conventions over the years.



Chris Parker said:


> While it's true that the Togakure Ryu name was originally used to refer to the entire collection of material found in what's now called the Bujinkan, the reason for that was that Togakure Ryu was the first Ryu that Hatsumi was granted Soke-ship of (1968, he then promptly awarded Menkyo Kaiden to Tanemura and Manaka... Hatsumi himself was awarded Menkyo Kaiden in the Ryu in 1959, less than two years after meeting Takamatsu), so that was the "titular Ryu" for what he taught. It should be remembered that, at that point, Hatsumi was realistically running a training group for Takamatsu, rather than necessarily teaching under his own authority... with his being awarded Sokeship of Togakure Ryu, he was then able to do things under his own authority. Same as with Toda's dojo using the Shinden Fudo Ryu name, but multiple arts being taught (albeit apparently not particularly openly), or the Shinto Muso Ryu being the titular Ryu, with Ittatsu Ryu, Ikkaku Ryu, Uchida Ryu, Isshin Ryu, and Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu all being taught there, the idea that Togakure Ryu was used as a single name, even if what was being taught wasn't completely from that Ryu, isn't an issue. On the other hand, the teaching of things like Iai, which is not found in any of the Ryu (except in the claims of a very few in the Bujinkan... no other lines contain such waza... and the claims made are not verifiable in any meaningful way), would be more an example of something being added, or created... same with a range of other methods...



Most of that extra detail, though, IS besides the point in regard to this thread. No?



Chris Parker said:


> As far as the Ten Chi Jin, Koku etc, that's really besides the point... again, those videos date from the usage of the term "Togakure Ryu" to refer to all the teachings. "Bujinkan" was originally the name for Hatsumi's personal dojo only... it only later was used to apply to a larger group of dojo's, beginning with Hayes' move back to the US from Japan. Since then, Hatsumi's personal dojo has been named the "Bujinden", of course, and the application of the Togakure Ryu name has been removed as an overall title.



I'm sorry, I thought that WAS EXACTLY the point I was trying to make! Apologies I did not make myself clearer. For the record I agree with you in this regard.





Chris Parker said:


> Honestly, I'd show you pretty much any Kacem Zoughari clip... nothing to do with BJJ/groundwork, but still quite a bit that seems added... to say the least.




Hehehe. I will pm you 

But agreed. Kacem shows many things. From many places.


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 9, 2013)

gapjumper said:


> Nope, and that is not what I said. It's certainly not what I meant. I meant westerners may present non-bujinkan material and claim it is bujinkan.



Cool... but, as the Bujinkan is based on the idea of adaptability, and free-variation (henka) within the framework, if it comes from a Westerner, or a Japanese instructor, isn't it still Bujinkan? It may well not be from any of the Ryu-ha or related material, but it can still be Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu without needing to be taught by a Japanese teacher...



gapjumper said:


> Again no.
> 
> If someone teaches BJJ in a Bujinkan class and lets people know where it is from, that is fine. To claim it is from the schools is wrong.



Cool, agreed.



gapjumper said:


> If someone bases a demo on the priciples of, say, SDFR then that is ok (probably, if they really understand those priciples), but claiming it as an actual named waza in the densho would be incorrect.



Yep, same.



gapjumper said:


> Si Yeo for instance teaches both BJK and BJJ but clearly separates the class into two sections.



Yeah, I know Simon's approach. 



gapjumper said:


> People fitting things to the framework is often an issue...do they really know the "framework"?



True. But the idea of a requirement being "not Western" I feel is a rather false requirement... and, sadly, I see it a lot in the Bujinkan. 



gapjumper said:


> I was not making that point that anything from a westerner is BS. I apologise that I have not been understood on this point. Being Japanese is no validation, there are some very poor Japanese. I guess I may have had specific people in mind as I wrote something that you took to mean that!



Ha, fair enough.



gapjumper said:


> Really, because what you then type seems to be kinda the same point I was trying to make. My post was not aimed at yourself, remember, but at others in the thread who may, like AC, be unaware of the naming conventions over the years.



Sure... and my comments weren't necessarily to educate you, either.



gapjumper said:


> Most of that extra detail, though, IS besides the point in regard to this thread. No?



Kinda... but as this thread was started by a new student to the art, hopefully he'll get some historical understanding from it.



gapjumper said:


> I'm sorry, I thought that WAS EXACTLY the point I was trying to make! Apologies I did not make myself clearer. For the record I agree with you in this regard.



Yeah... honestly, it wasn't that clear. You said that there's a difference between "made up" and "not been taught before", then went through a list of examples which were really neither, simply mislabeled and misunderstood. I was clarifying what they actually were. 



gapjumper said:


> Hehehe. I will pm you



Ha, cool.



gapjumper said:


> But agreed. Kacem shows many things. From many places.



That's one way of saying it...


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## Kframe (Oct 9, 2013)

Sorry for the confusion on the ground work stuff. I was just using terms im familiar with. The techniques clearly were from MACP, which is basically the Gracie combative course with some extras thrown in.  This makes sense as my instructor has 11 years as a infantry soldier.   The mount escape was a basic trap and roll.  The guard pass, was just so that he could get out from the guard and stand up and back off.   He never passed it off as official Bujinkan, just something that he taught. 

Chris Parker, your point about the stealth techniques is duly noted.  In honesty that is far from a priority any ways. More like my inner child came out. I get plenty of stealth practice ground stalking deer during the season.. I don't like deer stands..


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 9, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Sorry for the confusion on the ground work stuff. I was just using terms im familiar with. The techniques clearly were from MACP, which is basically the Gracie combative course with some extras thrown in.  This makes sense as my instructor has 11 years as a infantry soldier.   The mount escape was a basic trap and roll.  The guard pass, was just so that he could get out from the guard and stand up and back off.   He never passed it off as official Bujinkan, just something that he taught.
> 
> Chris Parker, your point about the stealth techniques is duly noted.  In honesty that is far from a priority any ways. More like my inner child came out. I get plenty of stealth practice ground stalking deer during the season.. I don't like deer stands..




If you are already a hunter and have been doing it for a long time then you are already learning serious stealth skills.  Personally I feel that everyone who is interested in this matter should practice hunting as it definitely a skill set worth having.  

As to stealth skills in the Bujinkan if you train long enough then you probably have a good chance.  Just train and enjoy your training along the way!


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## skuggvarg (Oct 10, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> As far as the Ten Chi Jin, Koku etc, that's really besides the point... again, those videos date from the usage of the term "Togakure Ryu" to refer to all the teachings. "Bujinkan" was originally the name for Hatsumi's personal dojo only... it only later was used to apply to a larger group of dojo's, beginning with Hayes' move back to the US from Japan. Since then, Hatsumi's personal dojo has been named the "Bujinden", of course, and the application of the Togakure Ryu name has been removed as an overall title.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I'd show you pretty much any Kacem Zoughari clip... nothing to do with BJJ/groundwork, but still quite a bit that seems added... to say the least.



I think this explanation is a bit strange and may lead to people getting the wrong perception of how things are/were. The Bujinkan has been around for quite some time now (mid 1970-ies) and that name should not be confused with the name of the Ryu-ha: Togakure. Originally created in honor of Takamatsu sensei (after his passing) The Bujinkan has been used as an umbrella term. Hatsumi sensei operates the Bujinkan Dojo and the teachings are called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Older diplomas and such used to say Togakure Ryu ninpo taijutsu if I remember correctly (Im sure your teacher has a diploma or two with that title Chris?) but this was changed later (around 1984???). There are plenty of good reasons Im sure of it which does not diminish the Togakure ryu name. Its the Hombu Dojo that is named Bujinden. 

Regarding Dr Zoughari, you know my position I guess. His knowledge about what is and isnt in the Bujinkan Ryu-ha is in my opinion totally unmatched by any other westener. I had the opportunity to witness that first-handedly less than a month ago again.

Regards / Skuggvarg


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## Kframe (Oct 12, 2013)

I have not heard back from my boss as to weather or not im going to get the schedule change I requested. If I don't get it, I will only be able to make it to one class on Saturday. Not good for development but at least I get in the door. If that situation  develops, what things can I do at home till my schedule situation clears up?  

Right now I have been working the Sanshin no Kata and the basic punching drill I was taught. (on top of my normal shadow boxing)  

I did find a Gracie JJ place in town, and thought that could be a good filler till my schedule gets fixed. Im not a big fan on ground fighting but that will atleast give me something should I end up there. As I do not know what many BBT instructors teach for escapes from various positions such as side mount or full mount of half guard or guard. I know my bbt instructor does teach a little but I don't know the full extant of it. 

I hate that my schedule is interfering.  Im working on it, but it will probably take a while.


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## gapjumper (Oct 13, 2013)

Don't worry, just keep going.

Gambatte!


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## Kframe (Oct 15, 2013)

Soon as I can save up the cash for a uniform im going to be signed up. Cant wait to start. Empty cup and all.


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## gapjumper (Oct 16, 2013)

If you really cannot wait to start, just ask if you can train in a t-shirt and jogging bottoms until you can afford a gi.


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## Kframe (Oct 16, 2013)

Gap, I would rather have the uniform. I would think that coming in my YMCA cloths would appear lazy and uncommitted. 

 I cant start till November any ways, and ill have the uniform cash well before then. (gotta pay land tax's)


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## Chris Parker (Oct 18, 2013)

skuggvarg said:


> I think this explanation is a bit strange and may lead to people getting the wrong perception of how things are/were. The Bujinkan has been around for quite some time now (mid 1970-ies) and that name should not be confused with the name of the Ryu-ha: Togakure. Originally created in honor of Takamatsu sensei (after his passing) The Bujinkan has been used as an umbrella term. Hatsumi sensei operates the Bujinkan Dojo and the teachings are called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Older diplomas and such used to say Togakure Ryu ninpo taijutsu if I remember correctly (Im sure your teacher has a diploma or two with that title Chris?) but this was changed later (around 1984???). There are plenty of good reasons Im sure of it which does not diminish the Togakure ryu name. Its the Hombu Dojo that is named Bujinden.



Honestly, I have no idea what you're on about here... how was what I said (that you gave a cut-down version of) "strange", or "lead(ing) to a wrong perception"? There was no "confusion" of equating the name "Bujinkan" with the Togakure Ryu (specific), there was the description of when, how, and why the names were used... there was nothing at all about "diminishing" the Togakure Ryu name... frankly, your comments here show less understanding of the history here, if I'm to be blunt.



skuggvarg said:


> Regarding Dr Zoughari, you know my position I guess. His knowledge about what is and isnt in the Bujinkan Ryu-ha is in my opinion totally unmatched by any other westener. I had the opportunity to witness that first-handedly less than a month ago again.
> 
> Regards / Skuggvarg



Yeah, I know your position. And you know mine. But hey, if come across anything that shows Kacem to have any understanding of the different riai, hyoshi, ma-ai etc of the Ryu-ha, anything that has him at a correct distancing, anything that has him using a weapon in a way that wouldn't get him killed... let me know. I'm more than happy to see something good out of the Bujinkan. But nothing I've seen shows the understanding you suggest, honestly. Of course, I'm on record saying that if Kacem was to hold a seminar in a location that was easily accessible to me, I would make every effort to attend. So, if you ever hear of anything in Australia (preferably Melbourne, but Sydney'd be fine... large Bujinkan community there...), let me know, and I'll attend to "witness first-handedly" myself. And I promise that I will keep a completely open mind.


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## Kframe (Oct 23, 2013)

Here Is a good question though for everyone. I was on google, and  was looking for examples bujinkan ground fighting/survival and found a number of dojos saying they teach Suwari Newaza, then they use parenthesis and say its ground fighting. Can someone explain to me the differences between Suwari newaza and the Newaza that BJJ/Judo does? If  I remember my searching correctly suwari newaza is merely seated/kneeling techniques and not in any way congruent to BJJ/Judo Newaza. 

Please educate me on the meaning and purpose behind the Suwari ne waza. In context of way back in history when the arts were in there heyday and how it relates to modern defensive application.

I just think it maybe a little misleading to use the term ground fighting, as it conjures up Bjj/mma in the minds of most non martial lay people who may be interested joining.  

Thanks for the insight guys.


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## gapjumper (Oct 24, 2013)

Do you have a link to the sites where you have seen this, just so we can see context?

Also, I thought we had touched on "groundwork", ne waza, and suwari gata back somewhere around page 4?


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## Kframe (Oct 24, 2013)

http://www.bujinkanlosangeles.com/#schedule Many others simply list it under the Jutaijutsu heading.    Again im not trying to bash them, just understand what exactly suwari is, what it isn't. How it relates to modern self defense. 

I understand that by using the words ground fighting its effective marketing, but a little misleading. Nothing new there, all marketing is deception anyways.


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## skuggvarg (Oct 24, 2013)

Kframe said:


> http://www.bujinkanlosangeles.com/#schedule Many others simply list it under the Jutaijutsu heading.    Again im not trying to bash them, just understand what exactly suwari is, what it isn't. How it relates to modern self defense.
> 
> I understand that by using the words ground fighting its effective marketing, but a little misleading. Nothing new there, all marketing is deception anyways.



Dear Kframe,

Suwari waza refers to techniques done while sitting down. The traditional way of sitting in Japan is directly on the ground so its not that far fetched to call it ground fighting even though it conjurs up other images in most peoples heads. There are waza for fighting seated, even lying on the ground and of course you can also adapt to the situation. What is even more important is, you have a lot of ways of getting back up as well as methods preventing you from falling down in the first place. Most, except for a few hard heads, realize it is very dangerous to be on the ground so if you can avoid it its better to get up.

Regards / Skuggvarg


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## Chris Parker (Oct 24, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Here Is a good question though for everyone. I was on google, and  was looking for examples bujinkan ground fighting/survival and found a number of dojos saying they teach Suwari Newaza, then they use parenthesis and say its ground fighting. Can someone explain to me the differences between Suwari newaza and the Newaza that BJJ/Judo does? If  I remember my searching correctly suwari newaza is merely seated/kneeling techniques and not in any way congruent to BJJ/Judo Newaza.
> 
> Please educate me on the meaning and purpose behind the Suwari ne waza. In context of way back in history when the arts were in there heyday and how it relates to modern defensive application.
> 
> ...



As skuggvarg said, suwari gata and ne waza are different things. Suwari gata are techniques where you begin seated, ne waza are methods for fighting on the ground... while the two are often confused, and they are not that closely related. The contexts of each are quite removed from each other. The usage of the term "suwari ne waza" means that either there's a mistake in the grammar/structure of the term (possibly "suwari/ne waza", or "suwari, ne waza"...?), or a lack of understanding of the term(s) themselves.

So, the meaning and purpose? Well, in many cases, suwari gata are pretty much purely about self defence... they are non-battlefield methods, often against attacks that are ambushes/assassinations. The context is teaching you to be prepared to act in any situation, really. From there, you can get into an investigation of how the particular system approaches suwari gata, which can tell you a lot about the history of the art... for example, there's a reason that Takagi Yoshin Ryu uses a form of seiza (a kneeling posture), but Shinden Fudo Ryu doesn't... it uses a form of Fudoza (sitting on one foot). Okay, there's a few reasons... 

When it comes to the Bujinkan, there isn't any actual ne waza in any of the Ryu, as it just doesn't suit the context for them. Of course, that doesn't mean that there's no ground work in the Bujinkan dojos... I've seen it taught as a transplant in from BJJ or Judo, I've seen variations of standing waza performed as ne waza, I've seen stuff that is, well, completely invented being taught as well. As with everything, it depends on the dojo in question.


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## Kframe (Oct 24, 2013)

Thank you guys for the informative posts.  So there both ground techniques  but one is more about surviving a attack, and the other is more of a fighting system on the ground.  

What a indepth system im getting into.   Im guessing one could spend a lifetime and not learn it all.. 

With regards to BBT, and related systems, are you required to master everything or can you specialize?  With the massive amount of weapons taught, I would imagine it prudent to specialize in one area.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 25, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Thank you guys for the informative posts.  So there both ground techniques  but one is more about surviving a attack, and the other is more of a fighting system on the ground.


 
Ha, no, but at the same time, kinda, yeah....  



Kframe said:


> What a indepth system im getting into.   Im guessing one could spend a lifetime and not learn it all..



Hmm... in one way, yes, absolutely. In another way, nah.... you can learn it all in, I'd say, 10-15 years, covering all the official material, but really "knowing" it, yeah, that is more a matter of constant development and exploration over a lifetime. 



Kframe said:


> With regards to BBT, and related systems, are you required to master everything or can you specialize?  With the massive amount of weapons taught, I would imagine it prudent to specialize in one area.



As with everything here, it depends. You're not "required" to do anything... if there's something that particularly interests you, by all means, take that as far as you might desire. I'd suggest that many, particularly more experienced practitioners, do just that... but the catch is that, until you're taught a sufficient cross-section of the breadth of the art, you won't have a basis to see what really speaks to you... so, for now, it again comes down to following what you get taught in class. Right now, you seem to have an affinity for staff weapons... but you might find a greater love of sword work... or rope... or chain... or you might find that Koto Ryu just gels with you, or Kukishinden Ryu, or anything else. Right now, you wouldn't know... so have some patience, absorb what you can, pay attention, and enjoy!


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## Kframe (Oct 25, 2013)

Thanks again CP. I was hoping, you could point out were I was flawed when I said that both were ground techniques, one survival and the other a ground fighting system.  I just want to make sure I have the distinction correct.   I guess im using the word "ground" wrong. I think of being seated or kneeling on the ground as a ground technique, but that may be just my poor use of the English language. 

Your right I do have a affinity for staff weapons, of all lengths, but that is mostly for practical reasons. I believe that off all possible things I can use for improvised weaponry, stick/staff related arts will suit me the best.  That and I can walk with a cane, and bam instant hanbo or even a Jo if I get one long enough.  No one bats an aye at a walking stick.  Im also very into knife techniques. I do like swords but everyone and there brother does to.   Though I see what your saying, and I will keep on training. Who knows, maybe in time ill find something else that I like with in the system.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 25, 2013)

There is so much to explore within Budo Taijutsu that you will never get bored.  It is a very broad system with lots of room to explore and to specialize!


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## Kframe (Oct 27, 2013)

Well on MAP I found a thread from 2011. Man there is some crazy political stuff in BBT.. According to some, unless your a deshi of Hatsumi Soke  you don't matter.. Basically saying from what I read  that you can be a 15th dan in BBT and not matter to the arts.. That only people getting Menkyo Kaiden in the 9 ryu that make up BBT matter. 

What the hell is that about?  Do the leaders in Japan really not give a flying rats butt about the normal practitioners and weather or not they are adequately representing the art?

Oh well, doesn't change anything for me.


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## Hatsie (Oct 27, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Well on MAP I found a thread from 2011. Man there is some crazy political stuff in BBT.. According to some, unless your a deshi of Hatsumi Soke  you don't matter.. Basically saying from what I read  that you can be a 15th dan in BBT and not matter to the arts.. That only people getting Menkyo Kaiden in the 9 ryu that make up BBT matter.
> 
> What the hell is that about?  Do the leaders in Japan really not give a flying rats butt about the normal practitioners and weather or not they are adequately representing the art?
> 
> Oh well, doesn't change anything for me.



I think it comes down two two things, Hatsumi sensei not being the best organizer, and the Japanese culture of pseudo politeness.  Almost anyone can have any rank their ego will allow irrespective of their skill or lack there of. However 'demanding' rank, hard as it is to belief one would, has been proven in effectual.

As it has been stated many times bujinkan rank (kyu/dan) is not relevant to skill or knowledge, or at best only relevant to that particular student ant that particular time, by that particular instructor. Or to  exemplify the other side of the coin, you could easily arrive at hombu as a sandan, be graded to yondan and sit the godan that night!

    It's really no wonder that a few people have given up recognizing any rank other than menkyo, as only good practitioners hold such a rank, unlike the biscuit factory of 15 th dans!

   But really, don't worry about it, just worry about you and your instructor


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## gregtca (Oct 27, 2013)

Krame, LOL, welcome to the bbt.


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## Kframe (Oct 27, 2013)

LOL greg. Aye im learning that this art is different..  I honestly wonder at the point of having ranks if they mean nothing. Though if they have no real meaning that it does clear one up to just focus on their training and goals they set for them selves.   

Im not to overly worried about rankings because coming from mma, we don't do rankings.  It is a curious thing, how does Soke keep standards up if the ranks mean nothing.. After watching the human weapon episode with the BBT, I expected a 15th dan to not get spanked in h2h unarmed, but it happened. So then ranking must be social/political.  I wonder if that 15th dan made any changes to his personal training after that. 

Meh but as was stated, only thing that matters is my training and my application of training.


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## jks9199 (Oct 27, 2013)

This blog entry may shed some light on that...

http://henka.wordpress.com/2007/10/11/the-human-weapon/



> In the end we had to accommodate their desire for some sort of contest.  Well, given our art that is not so easy to do.
> We ended up having a game of tag using Tombu weapons with victory  going to the one who could score the first 5 hits.  Kinda like a game of  chambara.  It was good fun and a good training experience for Bruce and  me.



Also see: http://henka.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/human-weapon-aftermath/



> We also knew the risk that there will be people out there who will  jump to the conclusion that it was &#8221; representative&#8221; of what we do here  in the BK.  I do feel sorry that they did not have their chance to see  what they imagine should have happened. Unfortunately, what was requested as the challenge was denied, and  therefore something had to be done to control the space.  Not all Ninjas  show their tricks.  Silly Rabbit&#8230;
> Turning BK into a sport, is tough and to adhere to rules is tougher  and there were plenty of talks and conversation prior to avoid injury.  And yes, even reality shows do have some level of control.  The plastic  goggles might have been safe, but they just did not look that cool on  camera, so we chose to go without them.


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## Kframe (Oct 28, 2013)

Thanks for the links JKS. It was just kind of odd to watch that segment. I really was expecting someone with that kind of rank to do better in unarmed. Unless Jason chambers is really that good unarmed then I understand. I was hoping to see more of a fight, see some good unarmed skills. He owned on the weapons  though.. Totally owned him..


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## Kframe (Nov 5, 2013)

HI guys, I'm  hoping I can get some advice.  Its soon coming up to the time when I will be full time training.  I have been practicing my forward rolls and my san shin and the punch drill. I still cant do the koho kaiten.   I'm concerned because I was reading about the ten chi jin ryaku no maki and some of the things I may have to look forward to in the future.  I'm concerned about the apparent acrobatic nature of this art.  

As some of you know im on a weight loss journey. I'm currently 330lbs having started at 420lbs. I'm in the best physical shape of my life, thanks to the cardio I have built up over many mma conditioning and sparring workouts.  I was never able to do a Oten in high school when I was much thinner and a foot ball player.. I concerned that ill not be able to do the more advanced rolls like Yoko kaiten or the oten and the other acrobatic things. 

I could put off the martial arts for a year and focus on the intense group excercises at the Y, or continue with my path and do my power yoga and spin class on off days.. 

I maybe thinking to far ahead, but I cant help it. My OCD is my worst enemy.

Thanks for any advice guys. 

Which would mean I wont be getting the full experience.  Im working out as much as I can at the YMCA but the weight is coming off painfully slow. Tempted to switch back to Atkins, but that didn't work out well when I started mma..


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## jks9199 (Nov 5, 2013)

As to diet -- no MD, can't advise.

As to training...  Trust your instructors.  They'll get you through, and help you find ways to do what you need to.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 5, 2013)

Just train and everything will work out.  As to the acrobatic nature of this system.  It is not that much and you will be fine.  Bottom line just train and enjoy it!


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## Kframe (Nov 10, 2013)

LOL over on Traditional fighting arts, Dan posted this link. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2011/10/standing-start-drills-whats-wrong-with.html  He used it to sum up his dislike of Ninjutsu(budo taijutsu for me)  saying that it was a entire art of zombie standing start drills.    Honestly what is surprisingly infuriating about this, is he and the others on that forum are using the same tactics that MMA guys use against karate all the time.  I told them I thought they were being hypocritical. 

He either doesn't know or wont accept how Traditional Japanese kata is performed. Chris Parker is correct, he is basically denigrating every  Koryu art out there?!   I just don't understand why he doesn't just do some research in to how and why they do what they do.

He also still is failing to understand that kata is not the same thing as scenario response training.(which Brian R CanCise mentioned was used for pressure testing, in some places)  

Honestly it is a reflection of my self. I remember arguing with CP over stuff like this, when in reality I didn't(still don't) know anything about what I was trying to argue about.  
I guess there is a reason I like MT so much.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 11, 2013)

Ha, to be honest, I'm not entirely sure that many modern practitioners have much idea of kata training, so Dan's really not alone there. On that note, I've written a series of posts on my school facebook page about this topic, so might share them here:



			
				Chris Parker said:
			
		

> Learning To Fight, or Just Choreography? What is Kata?
> 
> Over the years I've had a large number of conversations about exactly what our training methods are... and why certain other methods aren't employed as part of our standard approach. Over the next few weeks I'm going to see if I can explain how many traditional arts (including ours) train... and answer a few questions as we go. If there are any queries that come up, feel free to put them in the comments.
> 
> ...






			
				Chris Parker said:
			
		

> "But... Do You Spar?" (Kata Training Part II)
> 
> As the majority of our training methods (along with many, indeed, most other traditional Japanese martial arts) are Kata (pre-arranged training techniques, in our case, being paired exercises with an attacking and defending partner), I am often asked by prospective students whether or not we spar... And my answer is not always one that is understood.
> 
> ...


 



			
				Chris Parker said:
			
		

> What Are You Trying To Do? The Role of Uke and Tori in Kata (Kata Training Part III)
> 
> 
> 
> ...







			
				Chris Parker said:
			
		

> Keep The Pressure On: Seme and Kime (Kata Practice Part IV)
> 
> In this final commentary on kata practice, we will look at the proper way for both sides to be trained, again focusing on the Japanese form of paired kata, although we will also touch on the solo form found in karate and related arts. The last time we looked at the dual roles found in kata... the receiving side (Uke), and the taking side (Tori)... and how both sides work together for mutual benefit in training. This time, we will look at the way you should train... which takes place after the kata is "learnt".
> 
> ...


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## Kframe (Nov 11, 2013)

Nice articles CP. They actually shed a good deal of light on Traditional kata.  I especially like the video. Im actually watching part two right now.


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## Kframe (Nov 13, 2013)

Doubt creeping in..  As the countdown clock ticks ever closer to the time I am a official student(just got the last hurdle out of the way, next pay day im in) my mind is racing. 

The reason for my doubt suddenly springing forward is what just happened in my living room.  My wife is upstairs laying with our son getting him to sleep. Im down stairs with my daughter.(just turned 5)  She was watching Cyber chase and during a commercial break came up to me and sat down on stool next to me. She looked at me and says "I don't wanna be fat like you daddy".   

Needless to say im very hurt by this.   Now the thought is creeping into my head that I need to not do a martial art this is lower paced. I know for a fact that the KKW tkd place would be 90 mins of *** whipping cardio(for me, kicking is tough on my muscles and cardio at least in mma it was) and *** whipping cardio plus learning good kicks is going to go along way to helping me loose weight. On top of my Keto diet  that I am doing.(down under 330, closing in on the 3teens)   

I am convinced, based on my own research and my experience that BBT is every bit as good as tkd as  self defense martial art, perhaps better in some areas.  I am just worried that, even during the more faster paced advanced class(for 9th and above) and the randori class will not be fast paced enough.. 

I feel like a *** for judging that lady at the ATA.


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## jks9199 (Nov 13, 2013)

Exercise and training are not the same thing.  I could spend the entire training session whipping my students into physical specimens... but there'd be damn little time for actual training around the calisthenics and conditioning.  Or I can encourage them to exercise on their own, offer suggestions for beneficial exercise, and focus training time on learning skills.  Which can be a bit of a workout as we drill... but not a substitute for regular training. 

Exercise for fitness and weight loss.  Train for skills and ability.  Let the two reinforce each other, rather than try to do the other's job.


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## Tgace (Nov 13, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Exercise and training are not the same thing.  I could spend the entire training session whipping my students into physical specimens... but there'd be damn little time for actual training around the calisthenics and conditioning.  Or I can encourage them to exercise on their own, offer suggestions for beneficial exercise, and focus training time on learning skills.  Which can be a bit of a workout as we drill... but not a substitute for regular training.
> 
> Exercise for fitness and weight loss.  Train for skills and ability.  Let the two reinforce each other, rather than try to do the other's job.



Exactly. Skill, conditioning and mindset is the "tripod". Take out a leg and it wont stand.

Military training is the same. PT, skills, mental conditioning to hardship.

For conditioning.....look into "metabolic conditioning". Straight cardio and lifting have a place, but the "combative" payoff you will get out of circuit style training (burpees, kettlebell, sprint, sled drag combos for example) cannot be ignored. 

The "gut it out" factor plays into mindset as well. Both in pushing through hard workouts and enduring painful technique training.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Kframe (Nov 13, 2013)

Well I do have  YMCA membership. They do have a number of group classes.  They list the circuit types as advanced, and its all HIIT stuff.  Then there is the spin class and the Tight n tone class which is some kind of S & C class. Problems is most of them are at times I cant come. 

Id have to give up yoga for the tnt class.


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## gregtca (Nov 14, 2013)

Kramer , yep time is hard to fined , try this . http://www.bodyrock.tv,
Good luck , you'll need it ,


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## Kframe (Nov 14, 2013)

I am not going to let a 5 year old get to me. I don't think she meant to be hurtfull.   Though it does highlight the fact I need to step up my exercise more.  JKS9199 has a point, exercise and training are not the same thing.  Im going to stick to my plan of BBT and find a way to get to some more  YMCA in.


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## jks9199 (Nov 14, 2013)

Doesn't have to be a class at the Y or anything like that.  Go for a walk.  I know people having great success with the Couch to 5K program, which is free.  My Fitness Pal is a free phone app and website that can easily help you track your diet.  (I need to get back on using it...)  Here's a quick, butt-kicking circuit workout which doesn't require any equipment beyond a chair; there are plenty of others available with a quick web search.


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## Tgace (Nov 14, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Doesn't have to be a class at the Y or anything like that.  Go for a walk.  I know people having great success with the Couch to 5K program, which is free.  My Fitness Pal is a free phone app and website that can easily help you track your diet.  (I need to get back on using it...)  Here's a quick, butt-kicking circuit workout which doesn't require any equipment beyond a chair; there are plenty of others available with a quick web search.



Agreed. If you are not in the best shape right now, jumping into HIT Training right away may just scare you off and loose motivation. Build a base of fitness and work up...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 14, 2013)

Good advice.  Make a gradual change by increasing your cardio slowly and studying BBT plus working on your diet.  Slowly over time you will become more fit and drop the weight and you can gradually increase your cardio over the long haul.


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## Kframe (Nov 14, 2013)

Well im not totally new to cardio. I was doing mma and mma conditioning until a few months ago when my gym closed. I have been riding 14 miles twice a week since then. 

Thank you for the advice guys. I Keep you updated on my progress.


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## Taifuugan (Nov 20, 2013)

Kframe, I have read all your posts and have some advise. Just train. Don't listen to the naysayers, or those that say this is better than that, or that, or that. If you listen to these things, you will develop a there that will look better than here, and thus another new beginning. I have been training in BBT since April 1993. I had my forays with other MA's but they did not fit me. I just took my godan test and passed, yet there are those whom I helped pass their 9th kyu test that are now 9th dans. It is not about ego. I have not been in a hurry to get anywhere, there is no there. only here. 

As for your weight, I have met many people with weight that have positively handed me my tail. Don't worry about it. Just train. If it bothers you go to the ymca. But don't allow it to become a roadblock. Ask your teacher the meaning of Gambatte, and stick to that. 

As for the roll you are having trouble with. It sounds like you are leaving the extended leg sticking out and slowing down any hope of rotation. pull your chin in, and pull your leg in. you will get it in time. 

Good Luck,

Chris


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