# Difficulties training in different types of Wing Chun.



## APL76 (Nov 27, 2019)

Geezer asked me if I would mind talking about a difference between Yip Man style wing chun and Yuen Kay San style of wing chun that makes it hard to do them both together. So, to that end I have made this thread so we might discuss these sorts of things a bit.

Before I get into it however, I’ll just give a bit of background information about the wing chun I do.

I have learned both Yip Man (YM) wing chun and Yuen Kay San (YKS) wing chun from my Sifu, who learned them from Yip Chun and Sum Nung respectively. The YM wing chun my sifu taught in his class (he has retired) he altered slightly in light of some of the wing chun he saw in Fat San from YM’s descendants there, but the overall format of the system he didn’t really change. The YKS wing chun he has never altered from what he learned from Sum Nung; he tells us that Sum Nung told him “NEVER CHANGE A THING!!!” and he has done his best to not change the wing chun at all.

In terms of learning the stuff we were told to always keep the two systems completely separate.


So, differences. Probably the biggest difference that comes to mind is the way power is generated. I’ll just stick to the punch for the sake of brevity.

The YM wing chun we do we power the punch with the elbow (yes, I know the elbow is a joint and can’t power a punch, but you kinda need to think about the punch like it does). So, we think like the elbow is throwing our punch forward, and when the arm comes back the wrist throws it back. To help students get the idea I get them to pull the arm back into their “resting arm” position (what I think a lot of people call having their arm “chambered”) try to relax as much as they can, then I use my hand to fling their punch forward by pushing their elbow.

I get students to train their punches like this a lot, punch out with the elbow, arm back with the wrist. This sets up the way their arms will move for everything else. Everything else, blocks, deflections, so on, are all done with the same way of generating power. What this means is that, if all those movements are done with the same sort of power generation, and done within their correct structure, they will work without the need for people to rely on strength, or muscular tension, to make them work.

Now, when we get to YKS wing chun, the overall principle is the same: That the same power generation in the punch also powers the various techniques. What’s different is the actual method of generating power, and the structures of the techniques themselves. I won’t go into the details of just what the difference in the power generation is, but suffice to say that it is substantially different to YM wing chun. And in addition to that the actual structure of the techniques (punch, tan sao, bong sao etc.) is very different.

This raises two problems in terms of doing the wing chun 1) when you are training at it you actually have to think about how your arms are moving, you have to imagine the force concentrated and emanating from particular parts of the arm. 2) because you need to make it all automatic you need to train it to a point of operation beyond consciousness, so you can’t be trying to think about which power generation or which structure you will use at any given time. It should just happen.

So…… now I have never tried to mix the two styles of wing chun together because I was expressly forbidden from doing that. But given what I see of the two systems I think it would be difficult to do anyway, and certainly when I was in the earlier stages of learning YKS style my previous YM style kept getting in the way. 

It would be hard to train at power generation if you had two methods of doing it that are quite different from one another, and it would be next to impossible (in my opinion) to make them automatic, particularly given the different structural arrangements the techniques have. You end up needing to chose one or the other. I chose YKS style, though I do still teach YM style for the majority of the time. 

That’s what I think anyway; what do others think/what have others experienced?


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## geezer (Nov 28, 2019)

APL76 said:


> It would be hard to train at power generation if you had two methods of doing it that are quite different from one another, and it would be next to impossible (in my opinion) to make them automatic, particularly given the different structural arrangements the techniques have. You end up needing to chose one or the other. I chose YKS style, though I do still teach YM style for the majority of the time. ...That’s what I think anyway; what do others think/what have others experienced?



Thanks for giving this thread a shot. I know it's a tough thing to discuss, firstly because power generation in WC can be subtle and difficult to get across even when demonstrating in person, let alone in words on a forum, and secondly because of the constraints many organizations (mine included) have about being too open with material.

Now to your question about what other folks have experienced. My old Chinese sifu, a student of Ip Man, was a controversial character, but IMO he was quite effective at power generation. Early on, we were taught some pretty typical Yip Man lineage stuff regarding structure and elbow position, etc. But, as we got a little further along, the real essence of all our branch's energy kept coming back to a concept of explosive, _springy energy._ This was first taught with the arms and developed and honed beginning with dan chi. Then the same concept was gradually applied to our torso, legs, our stance, and our steps, until the whole body learns to flex and yield under pressure and then snap back like a supple wand of rattan or bamboo.

Probably the iconic example of this, and one of the first things taught would be the use of a flexible bong sau. Whereas others, even within the overall Yip Man lineage, might throw out a bong sau as a technique in itself, perhaps even thrown aggressively to displace an incoming attack, we were taught that you lead with a strike, letting your arm snap forward with that same "springy energy". If, and only if you encounter forceful resistance do _you allow your opponent's force to flex your "springy" arm into bong sau,_ creating your defense. Then, after deflecting the opposing force, the bong may slip free and _..."thwack!"_, spring back to strike your opponent, either with a punch or fak-sau, etc.

Now the role of "springy force" might seem like a small thing if you just apply it to a few arm techniques, but in our system it is applied to the whole body, even to turning and steps. The goal is to make the entire person, including his steps and movement equally springy, ...yielding when pressed and uncoiling explosively when released. So applied to a simple front punch, the power should be generated from step or stance, building through legs and torso and spine, funneling through the elbow, and focused and released through the fist. A whole body expression of the kuen kuit: _Loy lau hoy sung, lat sau jik chung._

BTW, as a disclaimer, I was never the best at executing this flexible force. In fact, upon watching me struggle with this, my sifu thought it was hilarious that my name is _Steve,_ since to his ear that sounded exactly the same as the English word _stiff _(i.e. the exact opposite of what we hoped to achieve!). Yet, decades later, in spite of age, injuries, and some arthritis creeping in, I have made some small progress.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 28, 2019)

APL76 said:


> The YM wing chun we do we power the punch with the elbow (yes, I know the elbow is a joint and can’t power a punch, but you kinda need to think about the punch like it does). So, we think like the elbow is throwing our punch forward, … what do others think/what have others experienced?


This is the issue that WC power generation is so different from other CMA systems.

When I trained YM WC, to freeze my body and only moved my arm made me to feel that I was not unify my body as one piece. IMO, all power should come be from bottom -> up.

Bend knee -> straight knee -> rotate hip -> extend shoulder -> punch out

Even today, I still have problem to integrate the WC system with the long fist system.


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## APL76 (Nov 28, 2019)

geezer said:


> Thanks for giving this thread a shot. I know it's a tough thing to discuss, firstly because power generation in WC can be subtle and difficult to get across even when demonstrating in person, let alone in words on a forum, and secondly because of the constraints many organizations (mine included) have about being too open with material.
> 
> Now to your question about what other folks have experienced. My old Chinese sifu, a student of Ip Man, was a controversial character, but IMO he was quite effective at power generation. Early on, we were taught some pretty typical Yip Man lineage stuff regarding structure and elbow position, etc. But, as we got a little further along, the real essence of all our branch's energy kept coming back to a concept of explosive, _springy energy._ This was first taught with the arms and developed and honed beginning with dan chi. Then the same concept was gradually applied to our torso, legs, our stance, and our steps, until the whole body learns to flex and yield under pressure and then snap back like a supple wand of rattan or bamboo.
> 
> ...



I think I'd have to see and feel what you mean by springy power however the principle sounds the kind of how we think of wing chun working, you have to be like bamboo. 

How does the springy power work as you learn other types of wing chun? Is there difficulty integrating them or do they mesh easily enough?


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## APL76 (Nov 28, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is the issue that WC power generation is so different from other CMA systems.
> 
> When I trained YM WC, to freeze my body and only moved my arm made me to feel that I was not unify my body as one piece. IMO, all power should come be from bottom -> up.
> 
> ...




Wing chun does have complete integration of the body. That's a lot of what all the forms past Sui Lim Tao are about. Indeed in the YKS system of wing chun you get all of that before you even get to the forms through learning the 12 training drills/techniques (Sup Yi Sik). You just need to establish a good stance, learn to align all your techniques through the centreline first and learn to disengage the shoulder from the punch first. That's the reason for the stationary training in Yi Ji Kim Yang Ma in the beginner stages. 

What sort of power do you generate in your long fist system. Would you say its relaxed penetrating power (as we try to develop in wing chun) or is it a hard force? 
My Sifu has always said that wing chun doesn't easily mesh with other systems of kung fu because the way we generate power is so different and that you need to be so relaxed. I have actually watched some of my kung fu brothers go of and learn other systems, like shaolin kung fu, and as a result seen their wing chun deteriorate. If your long fist system is anything like shaolin kung fu I would imagine it would be difficult to get them to mesh.


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## wckf92 (Nov 28, 2019)

APL76 said:


> Wing chun does have complete integration of the body.



Indeed it does. It's just that it appears he (KFW) has a VERY strict and literal view of whatever Wing Chun he learned. For example, WC has all the components he discusses, but wing chun is a "bite by bite" syllabus for the most part. It's meant to be "put together" once you know it. Kung Fu Wang lists: bend knee - straighten knee - rotate hip - extend shoulder - punch out....ALL of which are in the forms.


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## geezer (Nov 28, 2019)

APL76 said:


> I think I'd have to see and feel what you mean by springy power however the principle sounds the kind of how we think of wing chun working, you have to be like bamboo.
> 
> How does the springy power work as you learn other types of wing chun? Is there difficulty integrating them or do they mesh easily enough?



Before I answer your question, here's a bit of my background. I was introduced to Wing Chun by an instructor of the Augustine Fong branch back in 1979, just a year before studying with Leung Ting for over a decade. At that time I also trained briefly with a few German "EWTO" practitioners including Emin Boztepe, right after his controversial challenge fight with William Cheung. I began training Escrima with Rene Latosa at about the same time ...actually, a little earlier beginning around '82-'83?

Then, in the '90s I stopped training altogether for many years, only to start up again in 2007 with an American offshoot branch of LT's "Wingtsun" that was heavily influenced by the EWTO methodology of Keith Kernspecht of Germany (at the same time that I joined this forum ). Since then I have also touched hands with a Duncan Leung instructor, with Sam Kwok of the Ip Chun lineage and his instructors in this area, also a student of the local Hung Fa Yi branch, etc.

So actually considering that I have been involved with WT/WC/VT going back to '79, I haven't had much experience with other groups. And, until the HFY showed up, there wasn't anybody around from a branch that didn't trace it's lineage back to Yip Man. Moreover, the excessive clannishness of WC in general has made it difficult if not impossible to share and test techniques with other WC people. Most of my sharing came with people I met through my FMA contacts. They tend to be far more open, and a few have some general WC or JKD experience.

OK, now to your question about being like bamboo. Yes, our concept of springy energy does work with what I have experienced of the Augustine Fong and Sam Kwok/Ip Chun branches - but they do not integrate it into their entire body, stances and steps the same way. The result is sort of an on-again off-again use of spring which I personally find incomplete and problematic i.e. you either train to move with springiness or you don't. You don't consciously decide to be springy in certain situations. Moreover, if this energy isn't integrated into the body, stance and steps, you end up with a different quality of power generation that could end up being "un-linked" from the body like what John Wang was talking about in post #3 above.

Now I will say that a lot of this springy quality does integrate well into the escrima I do. We apply it differently. It's stronger and more forceful ...like a truck spring as compared to the lighter WC springiness, but it's the same idea. For those with an interest in FMA, an example of this would be how we apply our version of a "roof block". It begins as a forward strike like a jab or cross. If meets opposing force, that is if our opponent is beating us to the punch, his force impacts our stick bending it a little, rather like a bong sau, allowing us to deflect his attack and continue springing forward in one movement to hit ...with the stick impacting very much like a _fak-sau_. In Latosa Escrima we say we do not "block" but rather use _interference strikes_. In WC that would be _da sau juk si siu sau_ or _attacking hand is defending hand_.

So, I guess my answer is a conditional _yes_, you can apply our concept of springy energy to some other WC lineages and even some entirely different arts --but in most cases you will reach a point where there are too many conflicts or contradictions. For me, Latosa Escrima is the exception, but that is largely because: 1. it is more concept vs. technique based, and 2. I have my own version or teaching program, P.C.E (Practical Combat Escrima) and I'm free to interpret it as I please. And, I'm pleased to interpret it's concepts to conform with my WC.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 28, 2019)

APL76 said:


> What sort of power do you generate in your long fist system?


1. Drop low in a low horse stance and facing north.
2. Straight legs (borrow force from the ground).
3. Rotate body to the left.
4. Punch out right fist while right fist, right shoulder, and left shoulder are all in a perfect straight line (in north-south direction).
5. Repeat 1 - 4 for the left punch.

1 and 2 are the most important part. This is not emphasized in the WC system. IMO, one should think about legs before he can think about arms.

In other words, I can train my power generation even with my arms behind my body.

Could you come up a similar list to show how WC power generation is done? Also do you have any clip to show WC power generation? This way, we can compare the difference.

This is the long fist power generation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 28, 2019)

APL76 said:


> Wing chun does have complete integration of the body.


Do you have any clip to show that?

I can find at least 10 WC clips that the "knee bending -> knee straight training" are missing.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 28, 2019)

geezer said:


> our concept of springy energy does work with ...


If you can document the "springy energy training method" (step by step) and also record it on video, you will have given a great contribution to the WC system and also the entire CMA history.

IMO, the springy energy is very difficult to train. People had talked about it. But I have never seen any step by step training and video so far.


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## geezer (Nov 28, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can document the "springy energy training method" (step by step) and also record it on video, you will have given a great contribution to the WC system and also the entire CMA history.
> 
> IMO, the springy energy is very difficult to train. People had talked about it. But I have never seen any step by step training and video so far.



Thanks, but my skills are not at a level to showcase this concept. I know people who are at that level but they are not very open ...they don’t want to break their rice bowl. A shame, really.

The basics are available on video. I’m at a Thanksgiving gathering now. I’ll do a YouTube search later and see what I can find. The concept is not that rare or magical. Most striking arts have something like it. Grappling ....not so much.

As far as a training method goes, that’s what our chi-sau is supposed to train. The trouble is that you can train a lot of different things in a chi-sau format. Some people think it’s fighting.


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## APL76 (Nov 28, 2019)

geezer said:


> Before I answer your question, here's a bit of my background. I was introduced to Wing Chun by an instructor of the Augustine Fong branch back in 1979, just a year before studying with Leung Ting for over a decade. At that time I also trained briefly with a few German "EWTO" practitioners including Emin Boztepe, right after his controversial challenge fight with William Cheung. I began training Escrima with Rene Latosa at about the same time ...actually, a little earlier beginning around '82-'83?
> 
> Then, in the '90s I stopped training altogether for many years, only to start up again in 2007 with an American offshoot branch of LT's "Wingtsun" that was heavily influenced by the EWTO methodology of Keith Kernspecht of Germany (at the same time that I joined this forum ). Since then I have also touched hands with a Duncan Leung instructor, with Sam Kwok of the Ip Chun lineage and his instructors in this area, also a student of the local Hung Fa Yi branch, etc.
> 
> ...




Thanks for that. Though I'm sure I'd have to feel what you mean to get an appreciation for it it does sound like the way we apply wing chun. In that if your forwards force (a punch lets say) is crossed you bend to let the other person's force past (assuming their force isn't coming straight at you) and spring back into an attack again. And we do apply it through the entire body in both our YM and YKS wing chun. Indeed its more highly developed in the YKS stuff.


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## APL76 (Nov 28, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you have any clip to show that?
> 
> I can find at least 10 WC clips that the "knee bending -> knee straight training" are missing.



I guess it depends on how you define it all. 

In terms of aligning the hands hips and stance (without any real knee bending) every movement in the system that has the turning stance and/or the stepping is training that. So think of most of the Chun Kue, Bui Jee and Wooden dummy. Even the knife form trains that stuff. The rotation of the hips drives everything and the feet and hands have to be precisely timed with the hips. So when one does the bong sao/lan sao section of chum kue as an example. Your hips hands and feet all move together and stop moving together with the hips generating most of the power (there will be a strike in the arms at the completion of the movement) and its all braced on the ground with a strong stance.

If you want examples of the knee bending and straightening as it is timed with the movement of the hands and drive from the turning stance from the hips look at the bing bo bui sao section from the Chum Kue (that's the section where you transfer from the two low bong saos to the bui saos): You bring both feet together and straighten the knees simultaneously with the bui sao strike in the fingers. 

Look at the double bui sao strike section from the first two sets of elbows strikes in the Bui Jee: You bring the feet together, straighten the knees and bring the second bui sao strike up under the first bui sao simultaneously, all of this has power from the hips too, braced on the ground through a strong stance. 

Then look at the wooden dummy: there is a section where you come around the dummy with a tan sao on the arm of the dummy, bring the feet together, straighten the knees and kick with the opposite leg to whatever tan sao you have on the dummy. 

So here I can, just off the top of my head, give you examples of everything you were saying that wing chun lacks, that should be observable in pretty much any standard version of Yip Man wing chun; that is of course unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

In our Yip Man wing chun I have followed the example of what Sum Nung did in the YKS style and isolated parts of the forms to specifically train those things and come up with a set of....I think it worked out to about 18 training drills. In those I have put in a little more of the bending straightening stuff through the knees, however I haven't ever filmed them. And I'm not allowed to film the YKS style sup yi sik, so I can't show you that unless I could show you in person. You can find where others have filmed sip yi sik however, in my opinion for the most part they are pretty underwhelming. I have been thinking about making some more videos of our stuff lately, I just have to get a new video camera. If I get round to it Ill let you know.


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## wayfaring (Dec 29, 2019)

Sure.  OK.  I am Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Paai.

We have different concepts, systems, drills, and development.

I taught in the park for a year and a half with a HK based wing chun guy Ip Man lineage Ip Ching.

So for me I did learn Moy Yat forms years ago.  

After expressing tan sau with an understanding of tin yan dei or heaven human and earth I have zero desire to go back to that way of expressing without a TYD expression.

But that can also be explained by me growing older and minimalizing who I follow.

To explain TYD to unfamiliar it describes range and height factor considerations.

So there is my example of difficulties training 2 lineage considerations.

Also,  I think our front stance was quite different for them to try and comprehend.    As was my comprehending exercises walking down a path exchanging back stances like a Pink Panther movie.

Basic stuff like stance and movement differences.  




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## Nc1992 (Jan 18, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 1. Drop low in a low horse stance and facing north.
> 2. Straight legs (borrow force from the ground).
> 3. Rotate body to the left.
> 4. Punch out right fist while right fist, right shoulder, and left shoulder are all in a perfect straight line (in north-south direction).
> ...



Out of curiosity what is kind of range and distance does Long Fist focus towards compared to Wing Chun?

This may be out of left field but as I was reading the question that popped in my head was if the different methods of power generation were related to a focus on longer range techniques vs more close quarters work.




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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 18, 2020)

Nc1992 said:


> Out of curiosity what is kind of range and distance does Long Fist focus towards compared to Wing Chun?


In long fist, if you throw a right punch, your right arm, right shoulder, and left shoulder should form a perfect straight line.


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## Nc1992 (Jan 18, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In long fist, if you throw a right punch, your right arm, right shoulder, and left shoulder should form a perfect straight line.



So looking to extend the range of the punch as far as you can? Maybe the distance then accounts for the difference in power generation?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 18, 2020)

Nc1992 said:


> So looking to extend the range of the punch as far as you can? Maybe the distance then accounts for the difference in power generation?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I train the Tibetan White Crane method, and our power generation is similar to what KFW describes, although I suspect is it even longer.  However, this exaggeration of movement is meant to be a training methodology that helps ingrain that full body connection into an automatic technique.  Once you have developed that skill, it does not need to be so exaggerated, and full-body connection can be successful at short range and with much more subtle movements, which is more practical in actual combat use.  

So I hold that the method is highly functional at any range.  The method is not meant to be range-specific or limited to one range or another, or even optimal at one particular range.  It can be used anywhere, with anything.


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## APL76 (Jan 18, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I train the Tibetan White Crane method, and our power generation is similar to what KFW describes, although I suspect is it even longer.  However, this exaggeration of movement is meant to be a training methodology that helps ingrain that full body connection into an automatic technique.  Once you have developed that skill, it does not need to be so exaggerated, and full-body connection can be successful at short range and with much more subtle movements, which is more practical in actual combat use.
> 
> So I hold that the method is highly functional at any range.  The method is not meant to be range-specific or limited to one range or another, or even optimal at one particular range.  It can be used anywhere, with anything.



Yeah, I think the range and power generation are not necessarily connected. Look at how you describe your punch there, then look at Pin Choi from Sum Nung style wing chun.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2020)

APL76 said:


> Yeah, I think the range and power generation are not necessarily connected. Look at how you describe your punch there, then look at Pin Choi from Sum Nung style wing chun.


Yeah, I forgot to finish with my thought that Wing Chun goes about it with more subtlety from the beginning, but I suspect it is still in there, in some form of other.  Different strokes.


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## APL76 (Jan 19, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, I forgot to finish with my thought that Wing Chun goes about it with more subtlety from the beginning, but I suspect it is still in there, in some form of other.  Different strokes.


Pin Choi, Dok Leung Choi and Jin Choi in Sum Nung wing chun all follow the principles that you mentioned, extend the punch completely, its exaggerated, for over training, all lining up coordination of the entire body. Then, once you have it, it is generally applied in only a fraction of the extension that's found in the training drills. Sounds like the same principle.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 19, 2020)

Nc1992 said:


> So looking to extend the range of the punch as far as you can? Maybe the distance then accounts for the difference in power generation?









The concept of "maximum reach" exist in many CMA systems. Long range reach is the DNA of the long fist system.

In one sparring, I was 12 feet away from my opponent. My opponent didn't think I could reach him.

- I jump up with my left foot.
- land on my right foot.
- I then move my left foot behind my right foot (stealing step).
- I lean my upper body to my right, and
- my right fist landed on my opponent's face.

The jumping footwork, stealing step, body leaning, and leading arm and back shoulder make a straight line all contributed my distance covering.

In weapon fight, if your sword is 1 inch longer than your opponent's sword, you will have 1 inch advantage.


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## Nc1992 (Jan 19, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I train the Tibetan White Crane method, and our power generation is similar to what KFW describes, although I suspect is it even longer.  However, this exaggeration of movement is meant to be a training methodology that helps ingrain that full body connection into an automatic technique.  Once you have developed that skill, it does not need to be so exaggerated, and full-body connection can be successful at short range and with much more subtle movements, which is more practical in actual combat use.
> 
> So I hold that the method is highly functional at any range.  The method is not meant to be range-specific or limited to one range or another, or even optimal at one particular range.  It can be used anywhere, with anything.






APL76 said:


> Yeah, I think the range and power generation are not necessarily connected. Look at how you describe your punch there, then look at Pin Choi from Sum Nung style wing chun.



That makes good sense on the question of ranges, though it seems like there is a lot that could be discussed on the topic of range. From that exchange though it sounds then like there is a connection of some kind with power generation in Sum Nung Wing Chun and the Long Fist and Tibetan White Crane styles.

So now my obvious next question is where (if at all) does YM Wing Chun fit into the equation.


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## APL76 (Jan 19, 2020)

Nc1992 said:


> That makes good sense on the question of ranges, though it seems like there is a lot that could be discussed on the topic of range. From that exchange though it sounds then like there is a connection of some kind with power generation in Sum Nung Wing Chun and the Long Fist and Tibetan White Crane styles.
> 
> So now my obvious next question is where (if at all) does YM Wing Chun fit into the equation.
> 
> ...


Not necessarily. The principle of overtraining (making the movement bigger than its likely to be used to train power generation and coordination sounds like the same principal. However the way power is generated may not be the same (it might, I don't know the other styles but I suspect it would be different). 

In the Yip Man style I do  I haven't seen anything quite like the stuff in the Guangzhou style,


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2020)

APL76 said:


> Not necessarily. The principle of overtraining (making the movement bigger than its likely to be used to train power generation and coordination sounds like the same principal. However the way power is generated may not be the same (it might, I don't know the other styles but I suspect it would be different).
> 
> In the Yip Man style I do  I haven't seen anything quite like the stuff in the Guangzhou style,


Agreed.  The principle may be the same, but how it physically manifests within the training methods of different systems could be very different.  I believe this is one of the primary differences that distinguishes one system from another.  It is in how those  principles are put to work within the methodology.

This is also why I caution people that some systems may not mix well. They may follow the same principles, but if the manifestation is different, then they have a completely different foundation.  That does not mix.


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## Nc1992 (Jan 19, 2020)

APL76 said:


> Not necessarily. The principle of overtraining (making the movement bigger than its likely to be used to train power generation and coordination sounds like the same principal. However the way power is generated may not be the same (it might, I don't know the other styles but I suspect it would be different).





Flying Crane said:


> Agreed.  The principle may be the same, but how it physically manifests within the training methods of different systems could be very different.  I believe this is one of the primary differences that distinguishes one system from another.  It is in how those  principles are put to work within the methodology.
> 
> This is also why I caution people that some systems may not mix well. They may follow the same principles, but if the manifestation is different, then they have a completely different foundation.  That does not mix.



Both good points, I did not think of that. Still would be an interesting experiment comparing for someone with the time or resources.




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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2020)

One phrase my first Sifu would say: be big in order to become small.

I think this is a perfect example.  Learn to generate power with exaggerated movements (big) and then you can generate the same power without the exaggeration (become small).


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## APL76 (Jan 19, 2020)

Nc1992 said:


> Both good points, I did not think of that. Still would be an interesting experiment comparing for someone with the time or resources.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have seen what Flying Crane is talking about happen a number of times. One on of the most striking examples is one of the guys I used to train with years ago, he had done wing chun for about 4-5 years, training with my Sifu. He started about a year and a half after me I guess. He was awesome at it. Had the right body type, very soft force (just the kind we need for wing chun, how we do it anyway), very good sensitivity, extremely fast with his hands, and on his feet with a great centreline. 

What brought him to wing chun however was watching Once Upon a Time in China. He was happy to do wing chun until one of Jet Li's instructors moved to the Canberra region and started teaching Wu Shu and Tai Chi. He decided that he was going to do both Wing Chun and Wu Shu. My Sifu warned him that he would have to chose one or the other if he wanted to do either well, as the way they generate power would be entirely different. He tried to do both for a while and his wing chun detreated so fast it was actually quite surprising. The two were just incompatible. In the end he ended up sticking with the Wu Shu.


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## Nc1992 (Jan 19, 2020)

APL76 said:


> I have seen what Flying Crane is talking about happen a number of times. One on of the most striking examples is one of the guys I used to train with years ago, he had done wing chun for about 4-5 years, training with my Sifu. He started about a year and a half after me I guess. He was awesome at it. Had the right body type, very soft force (just the kind we need for wing chun, how we do it anyway), very good sensitivity, extremely fast with his hands, and on his feet with a great centreline.
> 
> What brought him to wing chun however was watching Once Upon a Time in China. He was happy to do wing chun until one of Jet Li's instructors moved to the Canberra region and started teaching Wu Shu and Tai Chi. He decided that he was going to do both Wing Chun and Wu Shu. My Sifu warned him that he would have to chose one or the other if he wanted to do either well, as the way they generate power would be entirely different. He tried to do both for a while and his wing chun detreated so fast it was actually quite surprising. The two were just incompatible. In the end he ended up sticking with the Wu Shu.



Oh I can imagine, very interesting.

Although I should clarify when I said it would be interesting to experiment my thought was looking at separate individuals training in each style and comparing their approaches to power generation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2020)

For a time I was training Tracy family kenpo (Chow/Parker lineage Hawaiian kenpo) at the same time I was training White Crane.  In kenpo, we were practicing punches in a square horse, punching to the front with the shoulders very square.  

My White Crane would creep in and I would begin to rotate.  My kenpo teachers were constantly telling my to stop over-rotating, keep the shoulders square.

In my White Crane classes, my kenpo would creep in and I would not rotate enough.  Sifu kept telling me, turn more!

I was doing a hybrid that was not correct for either method.  I realized I needed to choose one or the other, or else neither would be very good.  I was leaning toward Crane, and one day in kenpo class as we practiced in a square horse with shoulders squared, I remember saying to myself, “this is destroying my White Crane.”


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 19, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> one day in kenpo class as we practiced in a square horse with shoulders squared, I remember saying to myself, “this is destroying my White Crane.”


When I cross trained the Bagua system, during the circle walking, I need to move my leading leg first. This contradict to my Shuai Chiao circle running training that I always move my back leg first. The Bagua circle walking also violate the basic MA guideline, never cross your legs in front of your opponent.

Some MA systems are not only different. They contradict to each other.


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## hunschuld (Jun 2, 2020)

Excuse the Covid boredom and the attempt to ad to what seems a dead thread.  From my training in Lo Kwai's wing chun Everyone seems to be talking about smaller parts of a larger whole. 2 Gings in Wing Chun, Dog shakes water from white crane. The long range ging using hips and waist rotation and Snake Strikes ging close range narrow body fast energy transfer and requires the use of ankles ,bent knees, hips,spine to transfer power to hands. Hip placement is critical and shoulders and elbows must not come out of their sockets. Yip Chun elbow position motion is just a crude way of focusing on the elbow portion of the chain for example.   All require proper internal body usage. Joint connectivity ,small tight forward circles, absorbing and redirecting incoming energy etc. I have found many wing chun families have looked for ways to teach these things in small digestible pieces unfortunately many got so caught up in focusing on a part they never again put the whole back together. Also the original wing chun that we practice is a standup grappling art . The goal being to drive through and via sweep,trip,throw put the opponent on the ground. This focus provides a different outlook on power generation and usage than primarily focusing on striking.


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## geezer (Jun 9, 2020)

hunschuld said:


> ... the original wing chun that we practice is a standup grappling art . The goal being to drive through and via sweep,trip,throw put the opponent on the ground. This focus provides a different outlook on power generation and usage than primarily focusing on striking.



I find this intriguing. I've felt that the WC I see demonstrated often misses this. Personally, the most satisfying exchanges will close-in from kicking, to punching to clinch range and end with a throw or sweep putting your partner or opponent on the mat. Anything less feels incomplete.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 9, 2020)

geezer said:


> I find this intriguing. I've felt that the WC I see demonstrated often misses this. Personally, the most satisfying exchanges will close-in from kicking, to punching to clinch range and end with a throw or sweep putting your partner or opponent on the mat. Anything less feels incomplete.


In another thread, we talk about tools in toolbox. As a WC guys, what kind of tolls will you develop in your toolbox?

I use coordinate punch with

1. beginner - back foot landing, and
2. intermediate - leading foot landing.

I find it's simple and easy to learn. What will be the WC power generation method for both beginner, and intermediate level training?

Many years ago, people talked about "snake engine". Is there a easy way to tell the beginner how to train "snake engine"?


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## wckf92 (Jun 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another thread, we talk about tools in toolbox. As a WC guys, what kind of tolls will you develop in your toolbox?
> 
> I use coordinate punch with
> 
> ...



Well, I've no idea what a 'snake engine' is...but what you described above in number 1 and 2 are typical wing chun training drills to familiarize the student with different power generation methods. I agree with both methods. 

I never heard the term "engine" until reading in forums like these.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 9, 2020)

wckf92 said:


> I never heard the term "engine" until reading in forums like these.


Snaked engine was heavily discussed about 8 years ago in many MA forums. It sounds like a "push" to me.

I can understand that you may want to

- knock your opponent down, or
- take your opponent down.

But to push your opponent away just serve no MA purpose. It's against the MA principle "keep your friend close, but keep your enemy closer".

People may say that you can push your opponent into heavy traffic, or off the cliff. But I still don't understand why people want to spend his valuable training time just to develop "push".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 9, 2020)

hunschuld said:


> Also the original wing chun that we practice is a standup grappling art . The goal being to drive through and via sweep,trip,throw put the opponent on the ground. This focus provides a different outlook on power generation and usage than primarily focusing on striking.


Could you talk about the leg skill used in your WC system, and how do you train those leg skill?


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## ShortBridge (Jun 9, 2020)

wckf92 said:


> Well, I've no idea what a 'snake engine' is...



Wow, disappointed in you and hard to believe. It is well documented, though I've never seen one myself.

Snake Engine


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## wckf92 (Jun 9, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> Wow, disappointed in you and hard to believe. It is well documented, though I've never seen one myself.
> 
> Snake Engine



LOL. 
Clearly, I have much to learn!

~ Young Padawan


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## hunschuld (Jun 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Could you talk about the leg skill used in your WC system, and how do you train those leg skill?



First thing is learning to use the lower body. Our SLT is not fixed and stiff. You start to learn how to use knees and hips and your internal structure.. Then you learn SLT on 1 leg to start you on balance and how to use the energies.  sinking ,float swallow and spit.  The knife form has 12 sections some use the low horse the pole has the moving low horse ,the dummy has low horse and our Biu Jee has a low horse section that trains a leg pick and throw. The dummy has 8 sections that do not have a counter part in Ip Man dummy. These sections have several sweeps a couple of sweep/throws  and a couple of quad kicking sections and a knee attack. We have a version of chi sau that trains your balance and sweeps and throws as well as how to counter the same. So lots of lops fooks etc.also trains the use of the shoulder all done at close range. 
 When teaching we don't wait x amount of time to teach concepts from advanced forms . The goal is get you trained enough to defend yourself as fast as possible so concepts from the knives and dummy are taught early


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## geezer (Jun 10, 2020)

hunschuld said:


> The goal is get you trained enough to defend yourself as fast as possible so concepts from the knives and dummy are taught early



I like this attitude. Obviously with so much material, you can't rush things ...but getting _the essential concepts_ out there quickly makes perfect sense if you want people to be able to apply their stuff functionally.

This is what I like about the Escrima I train. It provides the directness and immediate practicality that is sometimes lacking in our WC curriculum. Some fault me for not being a pure WC guy, but the combination works for me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 10, 2020)

geezer said:


> Some fault me for not being a pure WC guy, ...


For some reason, the term "not be a pure WC guy" has been mentioned quite often. 

I have never heard anybody ever said that he is not a pure

- Taiji guy,
- XingYi guy,
- Bagua guy,
- long fist guy,
- preying mantis guy,
- ...

What's so special about the WC system that's so different from the other CMA systems that cross training is not encouraged?


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## yak sao (Jun 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> For some reason, the term "not be a pure WC guy" has been mentioned quite often.
> 
> I have never heard anybody ever said that he is not a pure
> 
> ...




You've seen the way we stand.... obviously we have a stick up our......


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## hunschuld (Jun 10, 2020)

yak sao said:


> You've seen the way we stand.... obviously we have a stick up our......


 LOL, thats it! The purity of wing chun depends upon the enjoyment of sticks in places they should not be.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 10, 2020)

hunschuld said:


> LOL, thats it! The purity of wing chun depends upon the enjoyment of sticks in places they should not be.


When a BJJ guy throws a hook punch, or throw a side kick, will people call his BJJ not pure?


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## geezer (Jun 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When a BJJ guy throws a hook punch, or throw a side kick, will people call his BJJ not pure?


I think arguments about "Authenticity" and "purity" would go straight out the window if we paid more attention to functionality and_ tested_ it. 

...Even if we tested it in the narrow confines of what we train for. Namely, _narrow confines! _


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## yak sao (Jun 10, 2020)

geezer said:


> ...Even if we tested it in the narrow confines of what we train for. Namely, _narrow confines! _



Nice!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 10, 2020)

geezer said:


> I think arguments about "Authenticity" and "purity" would go straight out the window if we paid more attention to functionality and_ tested_ it.
> 
> ...Even if we tested it in the narrow confines of what we train for. Namely, _narrow confines! _


If you said that my long fist is pure, to me that's a personal insult. It means that 

- I stop growing, and
- my MA knowledge is limited.

The nature path for long fist guys are:

long fist -> preying mantis (for speed generation) -> Baji (for power generation) -> SC (for throwing skill).


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## geezer (Jun 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The nature path for long fist guys are:
> long fist -> preying mantis (for speed generation) -> Baji (for power generation) -> SC (for throwing skill).



^^^^That sounds like old school Chinese MMA . I like the idea!

Then what about the progression of arts you train as you age?

Decades ago, a Chinese friend of mine told me that the young and athletic train athletic styles with deep long stances and big,  or even _acrobatic_ techniques. Mature men in their late 20s through their 50s train systems with more economical movements like Wing Chun or Southern Mantis, and finally, old men do stuff like Tai Chi.

...And then there are a few CRAZY old men who keep doing really tough arts like Shuai chiao. Best to steer clear of them!!!


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## FinalStreet (Aug 3, 2020)

geezer said:


> I think arguments about "Authenticity" and "purity" would go straight out the window if we paid more attention to functionality and tested it.
> 
> ...Even if we tested it in the narrow confines of what we train for. Namely, narrow _confines! _



Wing Chun already as existing, is already tested. 

Also, what is the point of training for the narrow confines. Martial arts, Wing Chun atleast 3 forms, is about expanding youself (not externally).
So if only 1 tool for many problems what's the point. It's not better. 

 It sounds like, you want original Wing Chun, but have yet to experience it and want to try it.


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## geezer (Aug 3, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> Wing Chun already as existing, is already tested.



Testing is not something you do _once._ Saying "Great grandpa tested it and it worked great for him" really doesn't cut it. Testing and adapting is a continual, and ongoing process.



FinalStreet said:


> It sounds like, you want *original *Wing Chun, but have yet to experience it and want to try it.



_Original?_ Can you explain that for me? Like the chicken and the egg, there is always something that came before. Or do you subscribe to the thinking that there was a time, maybe 50, or 100, or 150 years ago when Wing Chun was "original", ...and that all or most WC has become diminished over time. Or perhaps you feel that a few teachers secretly maintain the original quality? Who would that be? Please share!


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## FinalStreet (Aug 3, 2020)

geezer said:


> Testing is not something you do _once._ Saying "Great grandpa tested it and it worked great for him" really doesn't cut it. Testing and adapting is a continual, and ongoing process.
> 
> 
> 
> _Original?_ Can you explain that for me? Like the chicken and the egg, there is always something that came before. Or do you subscribe to the thinking that there was a time, maybe 50, or 100, or 150 years ago when Wing Chun was "original", ...and that all or most WC has become diminished over time. Or perhaps you feel that a few teachers secretly maintain the original quality? Who would that be? Please share!



Yes and Yes. It's in History already, and continues behind closed doors. Not a suprise look at the way YM started teaching. Wing Chun today is still a secret. Mainstream is not. Not all can transmit pure or original WC because not all had it in the first place.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 3, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> Not all can transmit pure or original WC because not all had it in the first place.


What make you think that the original pure WC is better than today's WC?

DOS < Window
typewriter < PC
8 track < CD
pager < cell phone
original WC < today's WC


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## ShortBridge (Aug 3, 2020)

Well, we certainly are lucky that you joined this week to tell us all that we are ignorant, but you possess the knowledge that we have wasted our lives pursuing. And at only 28 years old! How silly those of us who have trained and tested ourselves longer than you have been alive must feel.

Who is your teacher if we may ask? Did they teach you to represent them this way to the martial arts community?


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## FinalStreet (Aug 3, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What make you think that the original pure WC is better than today's WC?
> 
> DOS < Window
> typewriter < PC
> ...



Everybody knows original is better thats why theres alot of interest in how YKS and Yip Man teach not not their students so much. If WC is better today? What on earth make you think that? If it only loses nowadays in fights compared to before.


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## FinalStreet (Aug 3, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> Well, we certainly are lucky that you joined this week to tell us all that we are ignorant, but you possess the knowledge that we have wasted our lives pursuing. And at only 28 years old! How silly those of us who have trained and tested ourselves longer than you have been alive must feel.
> 
> Who is your teacher if we may ask? Did they teach you to represent them this way to the martial arts community?



Thanks for clicking profile, I didn't mean to cause upset if commenting, 28 was a fake age to conceal identity. It's just to say a different point of feel.


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

Plus it's not the object that can be better its the idea of the purpose of it or skill it has. So students have to come from original source WC, like 1960s. (Just joking - before) like 1950s and earlier. and yes those 10 years difference means alot. Original student YM transmit probably half and I mean YM -> TO HIS STUDENT. Not like CST to his  What's the point? . Yes dilution and not being taught right in the first place, then reselling on top of that.


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## ShortBridge (Aug 4, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> Plus it's not the object that can be better its the idea of the purpose of it or skill it has. So students have to come from original source WC, like 1960s. (Just joking - before) like 1950s and earlier. and yes those 10 years difference means alot. Original student YM transmit probably half and I mean YM -> TO HIS STUDENT. Not like CST to his  What's the point? . Yes dilution and not being taught right in the first place, then reselling on top of that.



...but you know the real Wing Chun, right? You have the secret stuff that none of us are privy to?


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> ...but you know the real Wing Chun, right? You have the secret stuff that none of us are privy to?



It's about deeper meaning than blocks and attacks.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 4, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> Everybody knows original is better ...


Since Modern WC = original WC + evolution + cross training

This is why original WC < modern WC.

Can any original WC guy do this 100 years ago in the southeast China? I don't think so.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=874393042994017


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

Modern WC is not Original WC and has no relation to it im afraid.


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## ShortBridge (Aug 4, 2020)

Still not willing to tell us who you are, who your teacher is, how it came to be that you possess this secret knowledge that we can all only dream of?


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## hunschuld (Aug 4, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since Modern WC = original WC + evolution + cross training
> 
> This is why original WC < modern WC.
> 
> ...


You might be surprised at what Leung Jan taught. Lo Kwai kept notes and made drawings for years of the Wing Chun he was taught. The brush work is impressive. His four treasures are preserved as well.. I don't speak or read Chinese so it could be a thousand pages of recipes but the drawings sure look like Wing Chun including throws,trips and sweeps. It may not be as deep or varied as Shuai Chao but it always  seemed to work for those that used it but what do I know.


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## FinalStreet (Aug 5, 2020)

Wing Chun is atleast 5 layers deep.

Not 1 layer then "trying" their best to pratice or 'sniff' out the 2nd. Where most practitioners today practice it.

It's protected within itself but self learning is not permitted or able. So youtube rubbish, articles rubbish. All comes down to knowledgable teachers FROM  Leung Jan.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 5, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since Modern WC = original WC + evolution + cross training
> 
> This is why original WC < modern WC.
> 
> ...



FYI, I could be wrong, but I believe that is Wang Zhi Peng of the Beijing Wing Chun Association, in Beijing.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> Thanks for clicking profile, I didn't mean to cause upset if commenting, 28 was a fake age to conceal identity. It's just to say a different point of feel.


So... you admit that you are here on some subterfuge?  And you expect people to take you seriously?

The whole game of “Ive got the real goods and nobody else does” is just worn out and tired and nobody buys into it.  Don’t be that guy.  Good luck repairing your reputation here on Martialtalk.  We’ve seen people go down this path before.  It rarely ends well.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> Wing Chun is atleast 5 layers deep.
> 
> Not 1 layer then "trying" their best to pratice or 'sniff' out the 2nd. Where most practitioners today practice it.
> 
> It's protected within itself but self learning is not permitted or able. So youtube rubbish, articles rubbish. All comes down to knowledgable teachers FROM  Leung Jan.


Yes, and I have a Nine-bladed Sword!  Not Five blades, not Seven blades, but NINE BLADES!!!

And my amp goes up to eleven.


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## ShortBridge (Aug 5, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> ...And my amp goes up to eleven.



Why don't you just make 10 louder and make that the top number and then make that a little louder?


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## FinalStreet (Aug 5, 2020)

There is no "reputation" on MartialTalk.com, its just a website not somewhere you can hand out cetificates. Lmao, n00bs. 

You just proved you know nothing about MA especially WC!!

Not everybody has the same point on WC as you, so it says everything about what you are really doing if you're offended... it's just fake age and account. You Are ???


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> Why don't you just make 10 louder and make that the top number and then make that a little louder?


Well because...mine goes to eleven...


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> There is no "reputation" on MartialTalk.com, its just a website not somewhere you can hand out cetificates. Lmao, n00bs.
> 
> You just proved you know nothing about MA especially WC!!
> 
> Not everybody has the same point on WC as you, so it says everything about what you are really doing if you're offended... it's just fake age and account. You Are ???


Oh, we’ll see...


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## Poppity (Aug 6, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> There is no "reputation" on MartialTalk.com, its just a website not somewhere you can hand out cetificates. Lmao, n00bs.
> 
> You just proved you know nothing about MA especially WC!!
> 
> Not everybody has the same point on WC as you, so it says everything about what you are really doing if you're offended... it's just fake age and account. You Are ???




Your a strange one. You suddenly comment on seven separate threads, add nothing of substance and then claim you don't care about the forum or its participants.

Your either in pretty desperate need of some attention or just trolling. If it's attention your after this is pretty much the wrong way to get it. If your just trolling, the internet is full of more accomplished trolls who possess a far superior and compelling repetoire.

Either way, your coming across as an odd curiosity of little value.


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## FinalStreet (Aug 6, 2020)

Snark said:


> Your a strange one. You suddenly comment on seven separate threads, add nothing of substance and then claim you don't care about the forum or its participants.
> 
> Your either in pretty desperate need of some attention or just trolling. If it's attention your after this is pretty much the wrong way to get it. If your just trolling, the internet is full of more accomplished trolls who possess a far superior and compelling repetoire.
> 
> Either way, your coming across as an odd curiosity of little value.



How can a troll possess a "repetoire", don't tell me your scared???


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## Poppity (Aug 6, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> How can a troll possess a "repetoire", don't tell me your scared???




Unfortunately, poorly formulated trolling from attention seeking typists never caused anyone to lose sleep at night.


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## Steve (Aug 6, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> How can a troll possess a "repetoire", don't tell me your scared???


I have to admit, you have a surprising amount of staying power.  Almost two full weeks of this.  That's commitment.


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## FinalStreet (Aug 7, 2020)

Steve said:


> I have to admit, you have a surprising amount of staying power.  Almost two full weeks of this.  That's commitment.



Shouldn't you be training instead of acting like the police of a forum of fake martial artists? (Except for the MMA page!)?


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## Steve (Aug 7, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> Shouldn't you be training instead of acting like the police of a forum of fake martial artists? (Except for the MMA page!)?


You're adorable!


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## hunschuld (Aug 7, 2020)

Final Street please try to be more constructive and less whatever you are being. You may make valid points but nobody pays attention to someone that just spouts off without at least trying to share or point out some specific differences.

I gave up forums years ago and came back out of virus boredom and the hope that conversation could occur that were not like the old days of My wing chun  is better than yours  without any demonstration or comparison. If you think Your wing chun is better that's great but point out some specifics at to why.


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## wckf92 (Aug 8, 2020)

hunschuld said:


> Final Street please try to be more constructive and less whatever you are being. You may make valid points but nobody pays attention to someone that just spouts off without at least trying to share or point out some specific differences.
> 
> I gave up forums years ago and came back out of virus boredom and the hope that conversation could occur that were not like the old days of My wing chun  is better than yours  without any demonstration or comparison. If you think Your wing chun is better that's great but point out some specifics at to why.



Yeah I hope whomever he / she is backs off with the negative comments, name calling etc and starts engaging is civil discussions. I'm actually surprised he / she hasn't been banned already by the site moderators. They are usually pretty strict on this forum. 
My guess is this person is from the Yuen Kay San lineage, and is probably from Great Britain due to his/her usage of the term "rubbish". Just a guess though.


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