# Gun Disarm Questions



## samurai69 (Nov 30, 2005)

In most self defense systems there are a lot of gun (pistol) disarms.

firstly how practical are they? If a pistol is fired whilst holding the barrel of the gun, how hot does it get (will it be too hot to hold?), What about the shell case being discharged from the weapon after firing (again hot and flying out possibly the angle you are standing at.
how quickly will the person holding the gun be able to pull the trigger against your deflection/move/technique.

I saw a clip of a hold up in a store, the guy behind the counter had no money in the till and so the guy with the gun shot him 3 times.......looking at the clip it would have been possible in the first few seconds to apply a side disarm, even if it hadnt worked properly it could have prevented him from being shot 3 or 4 times (after all he was shot anyway)

The clip is on this site
http://www.comegetyousome.com/fight_videos_home.htm
Potential Violent content -Mature viewing Warning
along with a load of other fight clips


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## Drac (Nov 30, 2005)

samurai69 said:
			
		

> In most self defense systems there are a lot of gun (pistol) disarms.
> 
> firstly how practical are they? If a pistol is fired whilst holding the barrel of the gun, how hot does it get (will it be too hot to hold?)


 
Yes, it will me hot but not too hot unless multiple round had been fires



			
				samurai69 said:
			
		

> What about the shell case being discharged from the weapon after firing (again hot and flying out possibly the angle you are standing at


 
That is always a possibility..Again I slight burn or cut from a discharged round is NOTHING compared to catching a bullet..More than once while at the range I've caught a stay casing..It ain't that bad




			
				samurai69 said:
			
		

> how quickly will the person holding the gun be able to pull the trigger against your deflection/move/technique


 
He/she may be able to get one round off..There is no guarantee that a technique will be 100% effective..You didn't mention muzzle flash or the sound both of which can startle you or the slide inflicting injury..Gun disarms need to be practiced regularly..I'm sure the othes will have more on this..


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## samurai69 (Nov 30, 2005)

Drac said:
			
		

> You didn't mention muzzle flash or the sound both of which can startle you or the slide inflicting injury....


 

I was going to ask about these, but thought i would see what people had to say first


as i said, the clip i saw, it would have definately been better to attempt a disarm as he got shot 3 or 4 times anyway


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## Drac (Nov 30, 2005)

Good enough..Let me apologize for the typos..Attempting to type without looking at the keyboard..Need more practice..


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## theletch1 (Nov 30, 2005)

One of the things to think about when doing gun disarms is how long has it been since the technique was reviewed.  That is to say that I would approach a disarm against an auto a little differently than against a revolver.  Many gun disarms were designed when the revolver was prevailant in society.  Now the auto is the top dog and presents a few more problems to deal with.  As for getting burned by the barrel or the spent casing...I doubt that in the adrenaline dump you'll feel either one.  I got more than one casing down the back of my collar on the rifle range in boot camp and, yes, it hurt but then I didn't have a full on adrenal dump kicking.  The slide on an auto is something else to consider.  It will rip you open pretty well so constant training to avoid that particular injury is needed.  The best training in the world for gun defense is the one where you reach behind you, take out your wallet and hand it over.  Better to lose your money than your life.  Train as often as possible, get as proficient as possible and then pray you never have to use it.


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## MJS (Nov 30, 2005)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> One of the things to think about when doing gun disarms is how long has it been since the technique was reviewed. That is to say that I would approach a disarm against an auto a little differently than against a revolver. Many gun disarms were designed when the revolver was prevailant in society. Now the auto is the top dog and presents a few more problems to deal with. As for getting burned by the barrel or the spent casing...I doubt that in the adrenaline dump you'll feel either one. I got more than one casing down the back of my collar on the rifle range in boot camp and, yes, it hurt but then I didn't have a full on adrenal dump kicking. The slide on an auto is something else to consider. It will rip you open pretty well so constant training to avoid that particular injury is needed. The best training in the world for gun defense is the one where you reach behind you, take out your wallet and hand it over. Better to lose your money than your life. Train as often as possible, get as proficient as possible and then pray you never have to use it.


 
I agree with your last statement.  Fortunately, Ive never faced someone with a gun, but if that day ever came, I would most likely comply.  Material items can be replaced, your life can't.  However, there are cases where the victim did comply and still gets shot, so I suppose another way of looking at it is, if you feel that you're going to get shot anyway, why not attempt a defense.

As for the slide ripping your hand, if you look at Krav Maga, they regularly grab the slide during their defense.  I'm not saying that it will or will not happen, just stating that this is what they do for their defense.

Mike


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## theletch1 (Nov 30, 2005)

If the gun discharges during the time in which you are holding the slide you WILL get cut, there's no two ways about it.  However, getting your hand cut is preferably to getting shot so it may be a simple trade off during the technique.  I'd like to hear what the Krav Maga guys have to say about it.  I know that there were a couple of techniques that I did during a seminar a few years ago that included grabbing the slide, so, again, it may simply be a trade off during the technique.


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## MJS (Dec 1, 2005)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> If the gun discharges during the time in which you are holding the slide you WILL get cut, there's no two ways about it. However, getting your hand cut is preferably to getting shot so it may be a simple trade off during the technique. I'd like to hear what the Krav Maga guys have to say about it. I know that there were a couple of techniques that I did during a seminar a few years ago that included grabbing the slide, so, again, it may simply be a trade off during the technique.


 
Took me a while, but I came across this clip

http://www.krav-maga.hu/gunshot.wmv 

I'm not saying that this is "the" way to do a disarm, but I thought it would be interesting.  It would have been interesting though to see the hand.

Mike


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## arnisador (Dec 1, 2005)

It's good to see an experiment like that, though I too would prefer to have seen the hand afterward to be sure. But, one test like that is worth many thought experiments!


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## samurai69 (Dec 1, 2005)

Definately good to see that, i would have liked to have seen his hand after too, but at least i have seen it done now


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## Tgace (Dec 1, 2005)

Heres an old post of mine you may find useful.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=205735&postcount=1


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## Brad Dunne (Dec 1, 2005)

Most folks train to attack/grab the weapon, but my preference is to attack/grab the limb that's holding the weapon. Reasons being, 1) I'm going after a much larger target area. 2) Even if I miss or lose the grab/hold, I've given myself more room to react. (CAVEAT)*Going off center is a given here........ If I try for the weapon and miss, well you can imagine the results. If I do manage to grab the weapon, it can still be pulled from my grasp, even if I have a super good hold and now all I have is thin air. Most folks that go for the weapon, even going off centerline, do not go deep enough on an angle to make it affective to counter, if they should miss or lose the grab. Some folks may show multiple aspects for doing techniques, but in reality there are only two venues (inside & outside push/grab) that work for everybody. Plus in this case the addage less is more holds true. Now there may be some techniques out there that folks may use and because they may be physically gifted they can make them work. The rest of us would most likely get our heads shot off if we tried them though. Regardless of what you may like to do, it must be quick and practiced till it becomes second nature.


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## MJS (Dec 1, 2005)

You brought up some great points Brad!  I agree that any time you're faced with a weapon, control of the limb should be establish first, and then work the disarm.  I would think that we would encounter some resistance on our attackers part, so if we're not careful when attempting to grab/disarm, etc., we could find ourselves in more trouble that we originally planned on.

Mike


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## Tgace (Dec 1, 2005)

This is for knife disarms, but is pretty much the same for firearms in most LE training. 

http://www.somersetkravmaga.co.uk/new_page_53.htm



> The Jim Wagner Knife Disarm Rule
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tgace (Dec 1, 2005)

This situation is whats known at the **** sandwich. Its last ditch and you have no other options. If you are going to be shot/stabbed anyway you look at it you have to give it a shot, if there is any other solution, take it.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 3, 2005)

Having practiced disarms for several years now, aggressively and with resisting partners, i've concluded that when it comes to guns, controlling the weapon is the only answer.  Techniques that involve attacking the limb result in too much freedom of movement of the gun holding hand and wrist, resulting in the ability of the point of aim of the barrel to intersect the body (that's a bad thing).   The weapon should be your only concern until it is out of the hands of the attacker.  

I've also been developing a series of techniques whereby the gun is brought in close proximity to your body during the disarm to increase leverage.  This, at first, seems counter-intuitive as the natural response is to create distance between the gun and your body.  However, in tests we've conducted, it actually makes it easier to control the barrel (the key to not getting shot).  We're continuing our research.


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## Drac (Dec 3, 2005)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Most folks train to attack/grab the weapon, but my preference is to attack/grab the limbquote]
> 
> Everyone has their favorites..If they have a knife I attack the limb..If they have a firearm I attack the weapon..So much more damage to the attacker if he has his finger inside the trigger guard..


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## Drac (Dec 3, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> This is for knife disarms, but is pretty much the same for firearms in most LE training.
> 
> http://www.somersetkravmaga.co.uk/new_page_53.htm


 
Good stuff there..


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## GuruJim1 (Dec 17, 2005)

.
As a Police Officer and 30 years Vet of the martial arts I can say this. If the person has a gun on you, give that person what they are asking for. If they don't go away after getting the object they wanted, and you feel that they are going to kill you any way, and then you have nothing to lose.

Objects such as money, cars, and etc. can be replaced, you life can not. The best thing to do is be a good witness for the police. A dead witness is not a good witness, but a live one is. Do what you can to live through that moment. It's good to practice disarms in case you may need it. However, remember if you disarm a firearm, the weapon may discharge so be prepared for the loud noise. Be aware of where the muzzle of the firearm is. Hit the person with everything you have and don't be nice, at this point it all about sudden but control violence. IT'S ALL ABOUT YOUR LIFE AND NOT A GAME. Once you engage the person you have commit yourself and you can back out of it. I hope this helps you in your understanding.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 17, 2005)

GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> .
> As a Police Officer and 30 years Vet of the martial arts I can say this. If the person has a gun on you, give that person what they are asking for. If they don't go away after getting the object they wanted, and you feel that they are going to kill you any way, and then you have nothing to lose.
> 
> Objects such as money, cars, and etc. can be replaced, you life can not. The best thing to do is be a good witness for the police. A dead witness is not a good witness, but a live one is. Do what you can to live through that moment. It's good to practice disarms in case you may need it. However, remember if you disarm a firearm, the weapon may discharge so be prepared for the loud noise. Be aware of where the muzzle of the firearm is. Hit the person with everything you have and don't be nice, at this point it all about sudden but control violence. IT'S ALL ABOUT YOUR LIFE AND NOT A GAME. Once you engage the person you have commit yourself and you can back out of it. I hope this helps you in your understanding.


 

I respect your advice and opinion.  It is well founded and there is good support for it.

For my part, however, I feel it's a catch 22.  If he's going to shoot you, he's not going to give you a warning, so there is no way of perceiving your life is going to be taken.  There is usually no point where it's obvious that he is going shoot you (other than him pointing a gun at you)...at least not before you're shot.  

What's more, just because he wants money, doesn't mean he's not going to shoot you anyway.

Tookie Williams, for example, ordered the convenience store clerk he shot in to the back room.  Then, he shot him in the back with his shotgun.  His reasoning later on as to why he shot the guy because he "didn't want to leave any witnesses."

So, at what point do we decide cooperation isn't our best best?  

We used to tell passengers in airliners not to resist a hijacking for the same reason.  9/11 changed ALL our minds.

The reason most of us who are martial arts instructors tell our students not to resist, is out of fear of getting sued if they do and somehow get hurt.  So we're very careful to articulate that we cautioned them against using violence unless absolutely necessary.  It's just another product of our highly litigious society.  

However, it is the decision of every adult, for themselves, to decide what, within the bounds of the law, is going to be their limit.  I have no problem giving the law abiding citizen the tools to do that.  What they do with them is their concern and business as adults. 

I do find it telling, however, that the highest crime areas are the ones where we try and tell the average citizen they have to be sheep in the face of crime.  In fact, in those areas we try to pass laws making it nearly impossible to justify someone defending themselves against criminals.  We tell them horror stories to scare them off from defending themselves, further turning them in to defenseless sheep.  We never tell them the truth...that it is not the job of the police to protect you as an individual, police have no such duty.  That it is the responsibility of every free person to secure themselves and their property.  

And, as a result, they eventually decide that tolerating predatory criminal behavior is just part of life.  A strong and free people should not have to live that way.  
I don't endorse disobeying the law, but I certainly support everyone's right to defend themselves, to the limit of the law.  In some states that means you have the right to defend yourself against criminal violence, with up to and including lethal force.  

In other states, that simply means you have the right to grovel for mercy at the feet of your attacker, until he either grows tired or bored, or the police show up.  Legal systems in those states are loath to make a distinction between a law abiding citizen and a career criminal.  In their minds, there is just one large anonymous public, and their method of 'controlling crime' is to treat everyone like a criminal.

Fortunately, things are changing.  Crime, especially violent crime, has been dropping for the last 15 years.  Much of that is do to better, more aggressive enforcement designed to target career criminals and put them in jail.  I think in no small part, however, it's due to communities standing up and saying that they aren't going to tolerate criminal behavior anymore.  

More and more states have passed concealed carry laws and more and more states have passed laws making possession of firearms by criminals serious crimes punishable by mandatory minimum long-term sentences.  States like Virginia have passed laws like Project Exile that work to put violent criminals who use guns in prisons for many years.  Laws like this return common sense to enforcement that distinguishes between criminals and law abiding citizens.

To quote the Dog Brothers "You are responsible for you."  It's not my job to tell the public how they should respond to violence.  That is for them to decide.  But if they decide that they do not wish to simply passively accept violence, it is the job of martial artists to give them the tools necessary to not be a victim.


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## GuruJim1 (Dec 17, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> I respect your advice and opinion. It is well founded and there is good support for it.
> 
> For my part, however, I feel it's a catch 22. If he's going to shoot you, he's not going to give you a warning, so there is no way of perceiving your life is going to be taken. There is usually no point where it's obvious that he is going shoot you (other than him pointing a gun at you)...at least not before you're shot.


 
Actully, the person will give you some signs (ie..Body Language), and your gut feeling will too. If you hand over your money and the person sticks around they maybe trying to work the courage up to shoot you. As far as the your duty, the police duties, and disarming. 

*Your duty:*

Your duty is to use what Instructors give their students (ie. Tactics). However, disarming a firearm is a one shot deal. If you mess up the chance of the attacker shooting you are even higher than before. I believe everyone has the right to self-defense, as an instructor my-self. Don't think, since you know how to disarm a gun that it will go off just like it does in the class room, it may not. The risks are high, and you should think if it's worth engaging this person. All I'll say is be realistic, and come out alive. It's not about the liabilty it's about one question, is your life worth taking that risk. It could go from, I just want money to, they're trying to get my gun to shot me, Bang!!! (the bad guy walks away and you don't).

*Police Duties:*

The police duties are to find these people and arrest them. The police does have a duty "To Serve and Protect". The police can't be everywhere all the time. Yes, you may need to defend yourself most of the time within the law. Criminals will make sure your alone, and try to get you somewhere private so a passing patrol car wont see them. The police tries to gather facts of what happened and I hope the victim could tell me what happened. Also, what did they look like. I have a hard time getting that from a dead victim. I like the idea of not being a victim, but in the real world you may have to let them win this one, and get them back in court with your eye-witness testimony. Martial Arts is about using your head not just your skill. Just because you know how to doesn't mean you'll win all the time. Play it smart, and weight all the risk.

*Disarmings:*

If you decied to disarm the person come at them with everything you have. Don't hold back, it about life and death....*YOURS*! Once you try to disarm and fail you have increased the chances of them shooting you just for your attempt. Listen to your gut, and try to keep a cool head. I do believe that the only person that is going to take care of you is you, but isn't the same as here's my money and he leaves. I'm sorry I don't believe in doing martial arts in every case. Like in 9/11 there's a time to fight, a time for flight, and a time to let them have this one. It's up to you to choose which one you are going to do. 

Thank you for post, and you do have some great points.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 17, 2005)

GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> Actully, the person will give you some signs (ie..Body Language), and your gut feeling will too. If you hand over your money and the person sticks around they maybe trying to work the courage up to shoot you. As far as the your duty, the police duties, and disarming.


 There's always a bit of assumption and guess work involved.  Criminals don't always operate in cookie cutter fashion.  Some will shoot you so as not to leave witnesses.  

I'm an officer myself, and I worked a homicide some time ago where a man walked up to another man, and point blank shot him in the face.  There was no 'lead up', he just walked up with the gun and fired.  It seems kind of dangerous to assume sometimes.  They may also just shoot you outright.  Just food for thought.



			
				GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> *Your duty:*
> 
> Your duty is to use what Instructors give their students (ie. Tactics). However, disarming a firearm is a one shot deal. If you mess up the chance of the attacker shooting you are even higher than before. I believe everyone has the right to self-defense, as an instructor my-self. Don't think, since you know how to disarm a gun that it will go off just like it does in the class room, it may not. The risks are high, and you should think if it's worth engaging this person. All I'll say is be realistic, and come out alive. It's not about the liabilty it's about one question, is your life worth taking that risk. It could go from, I just want money to, they're trying to get my gun to shot me, Bang!!! (the bad guy walks away and you don't).


 I respect your position, and there may be a time and place for it.  My point, however, is that either way is a risk.  When a man puts a gun in your face, there is no guarantee what he will do.  Armed Robbery carries a high prison term, and many offenders are multiple felons who are facing serious time if caught.  They may decide to not leave any witnesses.  In which case, you die from lack of action.



			
				GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> *Police Duties:*
> 
> The police duties are to find these people and arrest them. The police does have a duty "To Serve and Protect". The police can't be everywhere all the time. Yes, you may need to defend yourself most of the time within the law. Criminals will make sure your alone, and try to get you somewhere private so a passing patrol car wont see them. The police tries to gather facts of what happened and I hope the victim could tell me what happened. Also, what did they look like. I have a hard time getting that from a dead victim. I like the idea of not being a victim, but in the real world you may have to let them win this one, and get them back in court with your eye-witness testimony. Martial Arts is about using your head not just your skill. Just because you know how to doesn't mean you'll win all the time. Play it smart, and weight all the risk.


 Yes, agreed.  The converse, however, is that inaction kills too.



			
				GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> *Disarmings:*
> 
> If you decied to disarm the person come at them with everything you have. Don't hold back, it about life and death....*YOURS*! Once you try to disarm and fail you have increased the chances of them shooting you just for your attempt. Listen to your gut, and try to keep a cool head. I do believe that the only person that is going to take care of you is you, but isn't the same as here's my money and he leaves. I'm sorry I don't believe in doing martial arts in every case. Like in 9/11 there's a time to fight, a time for flight, and a time to let them have this one. It's up to you to choose which one you are going to do.


 Agreed.



			
				GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> Thank you for post, and you do have some great points.


 You as well.  Good insight.    :asian:


The main problem with gun disarms is it assumes you're already behind the power curve and have failed to apply the first rule of a gun fight.....bring a gun.  Coming to a gun fight unarmed is an extraordinarily dangerous undertaking.  Trying to take a gun from another is a low-percentage endeavor, and only works if your attacker is inexperienced and careless.

As many societies and governments assume their citizens are too stupid and incompetent to have a gun, this is unavoidable in most places.  Where it's not avoidable, however, armed robberies, home invasions and burglaries are quite a rarer occurance.  But I digress.


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## GuruJim1 (Dec 17, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> There's always a bit of assumption and guess work involved. Criminals don't always operate in cookie cutter fashion. Some will shoot you so as not to leave witnesses.


 
Yes, there is no sure thing with human beings. There are those out there that will just shoot and take what they want. Your right that is alot about guess work, but it can give you a higher chance to come out alive if you read very thing into what's happening. If you read wrong, then that wont be very good, but it's a committed attack, no backing out. 



			
				sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> I respect your position, and there may be a time and place for it. My point, however, is that either way is a risk. When a man puts a gun in your face, there is no guarantee what he will do. Armed Robbery carries a high prison term, and many offenders are multiple felons who are facing serious time if caught. They may decide to not leave any witnesses. In which case, you die from lack of action.


 
Yes, agreed, that inaction will kill as well as action will kill. However, action has a higher risk for death if you fail, but the rewards are greater if you don't, a chance to live. Thats why there is no backing out once you engage the attacker. 



			
				sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> The main problem with gun disarms is it assumes you're already behind the power curve and have failed to apply the first rule of a gun fight.....bring a gun. Coming to a gun fight unarmed is an extraordinarily dangerous undertaking. Trying to take a gun from another is a low-percentage endeavor, and only works if your attacker is inexperienced and careless.
> 
> As many societies and governments assume their citizens are too stupid and incompetent to have a gun, this is unavoidable in most places. Where it's not avoidable, however, armed robberies, home invasions and burglaries are quite a rarer occurance. But I digress.


 
Great insight, and 100% true.


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## Delta (Dec 17, 2005)

For anyone wishing to find out how good gun disarms are I suggest buying an airsoft handgun. I believe you can get a cheap one for around $20 at walmart. They shoot 6mm plastic bb's. If you mess up you will feel it and it does hurt. 

This is a big eye opener as you will notice (atleast I did) that you will get shot a lot. I also think this is a good test. You can have a good training partner and have good aggressive energy but if nothing comes out of the training gun that your using then your assuming you got out of the way.

Great discussion.


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## Cujo (Dec 17, 2005)

Good point Delta. All that I have to say is this. IF you attempt a gun disarm, expect to get shot. Only you can decide if you are skilled enough to attempt this move. Only you can decide on the attitude of your attacker, ie. what is his intention. This is a life or death situation and there are no tap outs, no refs, and no "restarts", as we do in training. Train. Train, Train! Train using multiple situations, angles and situations. If you do decide to act, act with sudden violence and determination of purpose! "Don't hit at all if it can be avoided, but never hit softly." Theodore Roosevelt.

Pax 
Cujo


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## FearlessFreep (Dec 17, 2005)

Probably impossible to get but I would really be interested to know:

a) number of deaths attributed to gunshot when the primary motivation was robbery and not murder
b) number of robbery attemts with a weapon in which the victim fought back and was seriously/ injured or killed (broken down by whether or not the victim had any self defense or martial training)
c) number of robbery attempts with a waepon in which the victim fought back successfully (broken down by whether or not the victim had any self defense or martial training)

The first would tell you your odds of surviving a confrontation is you just go along with it,  the second two would tell you your odds if you fight back.

If you are more likely to get shot anyway, even if you go along and give in, then maybe it's worth fighting back, but if robbers tend to not shot compliant victims, maybe better to just give 'em the money.  Of those that are shot while resisting, what are there survival rates compared to those shot outright...does resisting increase or decrease you chances of the shot being lethal?

Maybe some LEOs around could give us at least anecdotal observations.


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## Cujo (Dec 17, 2005)

Good questions FF, I will try to look into getting some stats but I am off for the next two days so it will be a bit before I can reply. 

Pax
Cujo


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## Brad Dunne (Dec 17, 2005)

The first would tell you your odds of surviving a confrontation is you just go along with it, the second two would tell you your odds if you fight back.

I've read somewhere that the justice department released related information (about 1993), if memory serves. The bottom line was very interesting for that time period. They stated that there was a 50/50 chance of either being killed or seriously injured, when dealing with an armed assailant. With the proliferation of weapons in the street and the seemingly lack of serious incarceration for these offenders, it is assumed that those figure have changed for the worse. Within the last 6 months in the local news here (Tampa FL), there have been at least 7 or 8 people shot or stabbed in holdups and they were reportedly complying at the time. One would think that a trained person would increase their odds if they took action. Personally, if it's my turn to go out, I'd rather go out trying than just standing there and hoping that I'll be on the good side of the 50/50 equation, which is probably more like 70/30 in todays world.


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## Blotan Hunka (Dec 17, 2005)

People need to remember that getting shot with a pistol doesnt mean you are 100% going to die.

If you have to do it you have to do it. The trick is figuring out "when" you have to.


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## GuruJim1 (Dec 17, 2005)

I do have some experience with gun shot victims. Your right, getting shot does not mean your dead every time. Keep fighting even if you do get shot, if you stop then you many get shot over and over. I teach in the Police Academy is never give up. Giving up means your dead, don't just except death, *FIGHT!!!* You made the decision to disarm; youre in this until your safe. 

As for a gun shot wound, if you didn't die the moment you was shot, your chases of living are good. If a 11 seconds goes by, your chases of living are better. If you can keep your cool, your chases of living are great. Only 1-2% of the people shot actually die of the bullet wound. Most people die from the going into shock, because they freaked out. If you have a chest injury and youre having hard time breathing, and bubbles and air are coming from the wound. Place plastic over the wound. This will seal the wound and aloud the person to breathe better until help arrives.

Just remember, even best prepared martial artist may not succeed at their disarming attempt. If you try to disarm a gun expect to be shot, a knife expect to get cut, and a club expect to get hit. Practice may help you to disarm the person, and/or keep your injuries to a minimum. Just don't stop once you engage.


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## FearlessFreep (Dec 18, 2005)

Beyond  the 'what if' scenarios, like "what if he shoots me because I saw his face and he's afrad I'll ID him or something"  which can be anecdotal, or reasonabe or silly,  I think knowing the liklihood of the event could be useful.  If I'm mugged or my house is invaded, but I'm pretty likely not to get shot if I go along, I'd be more inclined to go along.  If I'm likely to get shot anyway, I'm going to fight back a lot sooner.

At some point in the encounter there is likely to be an occurance at which my chances of being seriously or fatally wounded are going to go way up.  I'd like to know where that point is likely to be, so I can make sure I don't cross into it.  Or if it's already too late and I'm already across that point, it'd be nice to know I am so I can do my best to get back into a better chance of surviving.

On the otherhand, if my chances of getting shot are %60 if I comply but  90% if I fight....hm... maybe I'll take the bad odds over the worse odds, if you see my point

Then there is fighting back itself.  Once I attempt a disarm, if I fail, I've just sent the chances of the criminal *wanting* to fire at me from...whatever it was, straight to 100%, but what have I done to the chance of him getting of the shot?  Now I've hopefully gotten the weapon offline from being aimed at my center mass, and instilled in him a certain amount of fear and stress.  We both are striving to control the weapon and there the fact that I exercise every day and make a hobby of training to beat the crap out of people could come to play in my advantage.  

So at what point does doing something become a better or worse alternative?


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 18, 2005)

GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> I do have some experience with gun shot victims. Your right, getting shot does not mean your dead every time. Keep fighting even if you do get shot, if you stop then you many get shot over and over. I teach in the Police Academy is never give up. Giving up means your dead, don't just except death, *FIGHT!!!* You made the decision to disarm; you&#8217;re in this until your safe.
> 
> As for a gun shot wound, if you didn't die the moment you was shot, your chases of living are good. If a 11 seconds goes by, your chases of living are better. If you can keep your cool, your chases of living are great. Only 1-2% of the people shot actually die of the bullet wound. Most people die from the going into shock, because they freaked out. If you have a chest injury and you&#8217;re having hard time breathing, and bubbles and air are coming from the wound. Place plastic over the wound. This will seal the wound and aloud the person to breathe better until help arrives.
> 
> Just remember, even best prepared martial artist may not succeed at their disarming attempt. If you try to disarm a gun expect to be shot, a knife expect to get cut, and a club expect to get hit. Practice may help you to disarm the person, and/or keep your injuries to a minimum. Just don't stop once you engage.


 Yes, handgun wounds are extremly survivable if you survive the initial shooting.  Stopping the bleeding and remaining calm is paramount.  

As for gun take aways, I should clarify a point I made earlier on. If you, yourself, have a firearm and are skilled with it, using it against an armed attacker is probably the best of all scenarios.  Your odd's are better than cooperating in terminating the situation without getting killed yourself.

If, however, you are unarmed against an attacker, it's an iffy situation either way, and one which should be weighed before going in to action

Some situations to avoid.  If someone pulls a gun and demands you relocate, run.  Most of the time someone will not shoot at you if you are running, versus physcially resisting.  What's more, it's much harder to hit a moving target with a handgun than it might seem.  Never underestimate the power of taking flight.

Whatever you do, DON'T walk in to the 'walk in' freezer at the restaurant or grocery store at gun point.  It's a good place for an execution.  If they try to tie you up, don't cooperate (that's idiotic)  

What's more, it's nearly impossible to tie someone up AND hold a gun at the same time.   

As for the question about home invasions, understand that home invasions are violent and volatile situations.  Robberies on the street tend to be the 'give me the money' sort, and then someone flees.  

Home invasions are conducted by far more violent individuals who are inclined not to leave witnesses.  They are also, by their nature, prolonged events.  The longer a potentially violent event like a home invasion goes on, the more likely it is to end in an execution.  

If you're on the receiving end of a home invasion, understand that your odd's of not surviving by cooperating are much greater than in a street robbery.  The dynamics are far different.  Couple that with the fact that home invaders may have some casual connection to you, and that increases the odds that they won't want to leave any witnesses, whereas street robberies tend to be more random.

Assuming a lack of desire or access to a firearm as defense against home invasion, perhaps the best defense is to flee and avoid contact with the invaders.  It is ill advised to confront home invaders with any other weapon but a firearm, as they are likely to be armed with a firearm themselves.  

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7769769&dopt=Abstract

This study is ok, but I have to wonder why they excluded home invasions who's purpose was sexual assault?  I have to wonder if sexual assaults didn't fit in to the conclusions of the author of the study, who really wanted to make a 'property isn't worth resisting' point.  Maybe he didn't want to make a 'not getting raped isn't worth resisting' point, so he avoided it.  Just another observation about possible bias in statistical studies.  But I digress.

At any rate, here is some good advice on preventing home invasion

http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/20050201/4/1313

"police arrested leaders of a Harlem gang that, police say, terrorized drug dealers with a series of over 100 home-invasion robberies. The leaders were also allegedly involved in three murders."


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## Jonathan Randall (Dec 18, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> IFortunately, things are changing. Crime, especially violent crime, has been dropping for the last 15 years. Much of that is do to better, more aggressive enforcement designed to target career criminals and put them in jail. I think in no small part, however, it's due to communities standing up and saying that they aren't going to tolerate criminal behavior anymore.


 
Yes, I agree. I don't understand the rational behind "Three Strikes". Why do they get three? How about one strike for violent crime?

That video was horrific. I hope the man survived and the perpetrators caught. I honestly believe that he was in a lose, lose situation as the young criminal backed up before firing and gave no warning.


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## FearlessFreep (Dec 18, 2005)

OK, I'll admit to a bit of ignorance here.  What is a 'home invasion'?  I'd never heard the term until I started studying martial arts and I sorta thought it just meant someting along the lines of an attempted home burglary where the burgler did not realize there were people home and now  you've got anencounter between the burgler and the residents, but it sounds like the term is being used to mean something else?


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## arnisador (Dec 18, 2005)

There was a recent high-profile home invasion robbery here in ABQ.

Check out the link previously given for a definition:
http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/20050201/4/1313



> Home invasion robberies, which involve either using force or a ruse to enter someone&#8217;s home


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## MJS (Dec 18, 2005)

Question for the LEO's that we have posting on this discussion:  Is there a major difference between the gun disarms that are taught to LEO's compared to the ones that we typically see in MA schools?  If so, what is the difference between the two?

Mike


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## FearlessFreep (Dec 18, 2005)

What gun disarms *are* taught to LEOs, other then to back up to a safe location and call for backup of overwhelming force?


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## Blotan Hunka (Dec 18, 2005)

Well Im not a cop but I was an MP. Most civilian stuff Ive read and things I have done are simple. If you are close enough to grab the gun, grab it and keep it pointed away from you. Twist it like hell and turn your body till he breaks some bones or he lets go. Fancy slap asides and gunting type motions have too high a chance to miss. 

Its a **** sandwitch no matter how you look at it with a high chance of getting shot. Grabbing and hanging on is simple and can work. If he fires and misses and its an automatic that can actually be good as it will 99% of the times be jammed. You may get cut or burned but if thats all you are lucky.


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## GuruJim1 (Dec 18, 2005)

As far as gun disarms for LEO's is ready no different than the one taught in the MA. Just we trap the gun one hand and draw ours with the other hand. Thats about it.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 19, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> OK, I'll admit to a bit of ignorance here. What is a 'home invasion'? I'd never heard the term until I started studying martial arts and I sorta thought it just meant someting along the lines of an attempted home burglary where the burgler did not realize there were people home and now you've got anencounter between the burgler and the residents, but it sounds like the term is being used to mean something else?


 A home invasion is different than an attempted burglary in that the home invaders tend to know the victim is home.

They force their way in to the house, and then hold the residents hostage while they get what they came for, usually money or drugs.  It's often associated with the drug trade, as the belief is that robbing someone who sells drugs, will mean they are far less likely to call the police.

It usually involves several individuals, and is conducted similar to a bank robbery, with certain individuals controlling the residents, and others getting the items they came for.  They can be extremely violent, and have a high probability of resulting in a shooting or execution, as, by nature, those involving drugs usually mean that some member of the crew has some sort of casual relationship to the victim, to know where the drugs and money are.  

In some areas, criminal gangs, have been conducting home invasion type robberies against immigrants, for similar reasons that they are less likely to call the police.  Moreover, many immigrants don't trust or use banks, so they have large amounts of cash on hand.


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## Cujo (Dec 19, 2005)

Good answer on the home invasion question Sgtmac. As far as gun disarms, I have seen alot of differant moves taught. The ones that I teach vary depending on how close the person is to you, his location in ref. to your position ie. 12:00 o'clock, 6:00 o'clock etc. and where the weapon is pointed. I was first taught slapping moves, but found these to be lacking. A slapping move is great, IF it works. Now I mostly teach weapon grabs that involve moving the gun out of line with my body. An example would be grabbing the barrel of the gun with my left hand and rotating it left (if he was right handed) and grabbing the wrist with my right hand. They did teach at an earlier time to attempt to disarm or control with one hand, and draw your weapon with the other, but this has been found to be lacking shall we say. Rememeber this. Guns kill you by causing you to bleed to death or taking out a vital organ.  In the movies you see people shot with a firearm and they just drop, that is a bunch of **** in general. NEVER expect that if you shoot someone, that they will just drop. Alot of cops have been killed making that assumption. They used to teach the old "double tap", draw and fire two rounds center mass. Now we teach to fire until the action that caused you to fire in the first place ceases. This is why you will see leo's firing 5 plus rounds into a subject. ANY time you shoot at someone, even once, you are stating that you have the right under law to use deadly force. 1 bullet or five, he is just as dead. Check with your local laws as they aply to your area, I am speaking of the laws that appy to my area. "better judged by 12 than carried by six."

Pax Cujo


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 20, 2005)

Cujo said:
			
		

> Good answer on the home invasion question Sgtmac. As far as gun disarms, I have seen alot of differant moves taught. The ones that I teach vary depending on how close the person is to you, his location in ref. to your position ie. 12:00 o'clock, 6:00 o'clock etc. and where the weapon is pointed. I was first taught slapping moves, but found these to be lacking. A slapping move is great, IF it works. Now I mostly teach weapon grabs that involve moving the gun out of line with my body. An example would be grabbing the barrel of the gun with my left hand and rotating it left (if he was right handed) and grabbing the wrist with my right hand. They did teach at an earlier time to attempt to disarm or control with one hand, and draw your weapon with the other, but this has been found to be lacking shall we say. Rememeber this. Guns kill you by causing you to bleed to death or taking out a vital organ. In the movies you see people shot with a firearm and they just drop, that is a bunch of **** in general. NEVER expect that if you shoot someone, that they will just drop. Alot of cops have been killed making that assumption. They used to teach the old "double tap", draw and fire two rounds center mass. Now we teach to fire until the action that caused you to fire in the first place ceases. This is why you will see leo's firing 5 plus rounds into a subject. ANY time you shoot at someone, even once, you are stating that you have the right under law to use deadly force. 1 bullet or five, he is just as dead. Check with your local laws as they aply to your area, I am speaking of the laws that appy to my area. "better judged by 12 than carried by six."
> 
> Pax Cujo


 I prefer having both hands on the gun.  Remember, unless you compeletely remove the gun from his grasp, a struggle is going to ensue.  This always applies if you are unarmed.  If you are armed, the other option is to sweep the gun off line, while simultaneously drawing yours.  Keep in mind, however, that you had better be able to clear leather fast, as he will be bringing his gun back on line EXTREMELY fast.  

In addition, always practice BOTH moving the gun out of line of your body, and moving your body out of line of the gun, to minimize the amount of time you are in line with the barrel.  Remember, keeping the barrel from interesecting your body is key.  The gun is only dangerous when the barrel can be brought in line with YOU.

Also, never underestimate hitting the magazing release on a semi-automatic handgun.  On some semi-autos, Smith and Wesson's come to mind, removing the magazine will make the gun inoperable, and will prevent the operator from discharging the round in the chamber.

At the very least, however, it will reduce the number of rounds available to the operator to just 1.  If that discharges, the firearm is empty.  Also, grabbing the slide of the firearm and holding it tight will cause it to only fire one round, and will prevent it from cycling.

On double action revolvers, you can prevent the gun from firing by grabbing the cylinder and preventing it from turning.  If the cylinder won't turn, the operator will not able to actuate the double action trigger, and it will not fire.  Caveat, this does not apply on a single action revolver where the hammer has been pulled back or a double action in the same position.  However, understanding this principle can prevent a follow up shot even if the gun started in that same position.

I am familiar with an incident where a struggle ensued over a gun, and the defender placed his thumb between the hammer of the revolver and the firing pin.  This prevented the firearm from discharging while he managed to remove the gun from the grasp of the operator.  The struggle was prosecuted in an extremely violent manner by the defender, which is how you will have to do it.  (He removed the gun from the would-be shooters grasp, then preceeded to grab him by the hair of the head and ram the back of his head in to an exposed nail sticking out of the wall...not fatal, but very painful).  There was a lot of biting and clawing in this struggle, which is what you should expect.  

Also, long guns are much more powerful, but much easier to disarm at close range.  If you can get your body past the barrel, you can tie the firearm up so that it is useless against you.  Practice this with a broom or long stick.  Once you have moved your body toward the operator, past the barrell, you can practice levering the long-gun out of the operators hands.


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## MJS (Dec 20, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> In addition, always practice BOTH moving the gun out of line of your body, and moving your body out of line of the gun, to minimize the amount of time you are in line with the barrel. Remember, keeping the barrel from interesecting your body is key. The gun is only dangerous when the barrel can be brought in line with YOU.


 
Thoughts on the best method of redirecting the gun?  I've heard mixed views, with some saying it's best to begin your redirect to the inside of their weapon hand rather than the outside.


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## Blotan Hunka (Dec 20, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Thoughts on the best method of redirecting the gun? I've heard mixed views, with some saying it's best to begin your redirect to the inside of their weapon hand rather than the outside.



I would think that whichever way you do it at the time is best. 

All thought of inside-outside probably goes out the window when you really have to do it but I do see your question as a training issue.


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## MJS (Dec 20, 2005)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> I would think that whichever way you do it at the time is best.
> 
> All thought of inside-outside probably goes out the window when you really have to do it but I do see your question as a training issue.


 
Thats true.  I was just thinking back to a disarm tape that I watched quite a while ago.  The guys were stressing the importance of going to the inside.  Then again, looking at the KM disarms, they're going to the outside.

Mike


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## Blotan Hunka (Dec 20, 2005)

I think that going to the inside takes advantage of the weakness of the wrist in that direstion. The hand opens easier that way but you have to go across your body unless you are moving to the outside at the same time.

Going to the outside takes advantage of the finger break on the trigger guard.


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## Cujo (Dec 20, 2005)

There are disarms both to the inside and to the outside. As mentioned by Blotan Hunka, going to the inside takes advantage of the easier "wrist break". Sgtmac advocates the use of a two-handed grab to the weapon and this can also have some advantages, however, in the disarm that I mentioned before, I still maintain that one hand on the weapon and one to the weaponhand wrist, is a legitimate technique, especially if you are attempting to break the weapon grip in an upward or downward motion. This is a disarm not previously discussed, I believe, but one that is taught regularly police dt classes. Get a training weapon and try several techniques and see which you are comfortable with.
    I don't recommend attempting to sweep the weapon aside and then drawing your own weapon. Why? because this is a gunfight at say, 1 to 2 feet! you cannot count on shooting someone and having them go down right away. In the mean time he is going to be attempting do return the favor. 
    Finally, with all respect to sgtmac, I would never advise you to attempt to dislodge the magazine of a weapon that you are fighting to control. Unless you are very familiar with firearms, you are not going to have the presence of mind, or probibly the knowledge to attempt this move. The magazine release is located in a differant location on many weapons, even weapons from the same company. By all means, if while you are fighting for control of the weapon, you do hit the mag release, great, but to attempt it as a technique, I wouldn't go there.

Pax
Cujo


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## Shaolinwind (Dec 20, 2005)

samurai69 said:
			
		

> In most self defense systems there are a lot of gun (pistol) disarms.
> 
> firstly how practical are they? If a pistol is fired whilst holding the barrel of the gun, how hot does it get (will it be too hot to hold?), What about the shell case being discharged from the weapon after firing (again hot and flying out possibly the angle you are standing at.
> how quickly will the person holding the gun be able to pull the trigger against your deflection/move/technique.
> ...


 
As with every time I need a diversion I would shout "LOOK!! It's the Oscar Meijer Weinermobile!!!"  Works everytime, because everyone loves Oscar Meyer Weiners.  

Then of course you break his spine.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 21, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Thoughts on the best method of redirecting the gun? I've heard mixed views, with some saying it's best to begin your redirect to the inside of their weapon hand rather than the outside.


 My preference is to the inside of the gun hand, in other words move the gun hand toward the center line.  This moves the trigger away from the trigger finger, and it makes it harder to actuate the trigger, both intentionally and accidentally.  

Outside sweeps tend to move toward the finger, and make discharge, accidentally or intentional, easier.  Practice this, and you'll find it to be true.  

That having been said, there are many views on this.  This just happens to be mine.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 21, 2005)

Cujo said:
			
		

> There are disarms both to the inside and to the outside. As mentioned by Blotan Hunka, going to the inside takes advantage of the easier "wrist break". Sgtmac advocates the use of a two-handed grab to the weapon and this can also have some advantages, however, in the disarm that I mentioned before, I still maintain that one hand on the weapon and one to the weaponhand wrist, is a legitimate technique, especially if you are attempting to break the weapon grip in an upward or downward motion. This is a disarm not previously discussed, I believe, but one that is taught regularly police dt classes. Get a training weapon and try several techniques and see which you are comfortable with.
> I don't recommend attempting to sweep the weapon aside and then drawing your own weapon. Why? because this is a gunfight at say, 1 to 2 feet! you cannot count on shooting someone and having them go down right away. In the mean time he is going to be attempting do return the favor.
> Finally, with all respect to sgtmac, I would never advise you to attempt to dislodge the magazine of a weapon that you are fighting to control. Unless you are very familiar with firearms, you are not going to have the presence of mind, or probibly the knowledge to attempt this move. The magazine release is located in a differant location on many weapons, even weapons from the same company. By all means, if while you are fighting for control of the weapon, you do hit the mag release, great, but to attempt it as a technique, I wouldn't go there.
> 
> ...


 That is one I practice, as i'm also a firearms instructor, and i'm familiar with a WIDE variety of firearms.  You are correct, however, in that if you are not familiar with weapons, this might not be one you would necessarily want to practice...at first.  

However, there are only two types of handguns, semi-automatic and revolver.  They all share common characteristics, it is good to have an understanding of the general operation of those weapons, and what they all have in common.


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## DeLamar.J (Jan 10, 2006)

samurai69 said:
			
		

> In most self defense systems there are a lot of gun (pistol) disarms.
> 
> firstly how practical are they? If a pistol is fired whilst holding the barrel of the gun, how hot does it get (will it be too hot to hold?), What about the shell case being discharged from the weapon after firing (again hot and flying out possibly the angle you are standing at.
> how quickly will the person holding the gun be able to pull the trigger against your deflection/move/technique.
> ...


Here is one of the best ways I have found to disarm someone(through training of course). 
Move you arms and body in different directions at the same time very quickly, gun goes straight up in the air as soon as possible to avoid shooting a bystandard. Then your buddy helps wrestle the guy to the ground.
This is the only way I have found to be effective most of the time, the only drawback is you need a teammate. When I try this one on one it only goes well about 50% of the time because of all of the variations that can happen once you grab that gun and start going at it.
 If you dont have a buddy who is down to help you once you grab that gun then give the robber what they want! Grabbing the gun seems to be easy for me to do, but after that, keeping control of it for longer than about 10 seconds is VERY hard.


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