# Reality



## aedrasteia (Nov 10, 2011)

Please read, especially if self defense programs are offered where you train, or you have opinions/comments
about self defense programs.

This is extremely explicit, not exploitive or sensational but truthful and clear. And very hard to read.
The survivors had to live through this. We only have to read words on a page. 
I believe we owe them our attention and knowledge, without looking away and ducking this reality.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Press/Sandusky-Grand-Jury-Presentment.pdf

This report reflects the reality of the majority of child sexual abuse; *this* is the rule not the exception
no matter how much we wish otherwise.

The reality of 'attacks' on children, women and the elderly is missing from the majority of self defense classes
I observe and see discussed here on MT. I believe MT members are well intentioned and hard working 
and also reluctant to acknowledge that reality in programs.

There are many members here who include self defense programs or classes at their schools/dojos and 
these topics are regularly covered here on MT - lots of opinions - almost all focused, either implicitly or
explicitly, on the threat from strangers. And the 99% of responses focus on circular arguments about
the 'best' techniques, repetitive but vague statements about awareness and avoidance and noticeably
absent from conversations about reality as experienced by vulnerable people.

This report gives us the opportunity to start to face reality. And build programs to reflect it.
Please let us all know what you think.

many thanks and much respect,


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## Cyriacus (Nov 11, 2011)

Another User on here is doing a thing for Elderly Self Defense. And Womens Self Defense is pretty commonplace.
Childrens Self Defense can only go so far because A: Children are more likely to Misuse what They Learn, and B: They might just seriously piss off their attacker.

You make it sound like the Reality of these things is somehow Overlooked by the Majority of Us.
Based on how alot of this is put.

And of Course theres alot of Opinions. Only theyre just differnet Approaches, not different Idealogies altogether. Unless of course _your _Opinion Constitutes Reality. That isnt an Accusation, mind. Im just covering that possible base, just in case. You dont seem to be saying that, but who knows. Ive seen weirder stuff on here happen.


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## chinto (Nov 14, 2011)

I would agree that it is difficult to teach children self defense for the reasons stated.  the size difference and maturity of mind and body would make it very unlikely that a child of approximately 11 would prevail against some one such as that coach. I really do wish that that graduate assistant  I understand witnessed the attack had first, come to the child's defense, and second done some real damage to that coach!.  the head coach reported to his superior, why not to the police? do not know.  but seems that it will be in the courts soon.    that aside, I do not know how you  would teach a child that is that much smaller and lighter to prevail against an adult of that coaches size with out just enraging the attacker I am not sure.


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## WingChunIan (Jan 7, 2012)

very difficult line teaching practical stuff to children for all the reasons quoted. The only thing I disagree with is the risk of annoying the attacker. It is this attitude (no criticsm of the child whatsoever) that leads many children to become victims and often repeat victims. I teach my young students to become little screaming dervishes that do the exact opposite of what the attacker expects (most child abusers expect a victim and anticipate control), making as much noise as possible and lookng for the earliest opportunity to escape. Its a horrible area but much of the psychological damage resulting from childhood abuse / assault manifests itself because the victim feels like they could have / should have done more (even when the reality is that they did as much as they could and the odds were stacked against them).


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## kbarrett (Jan 7, 2012)

Reality and children, the fact is the most children just like adults will freeze the moment their attacked, instructors can only go so are far, when it come to teach a reality based martial arts.  You can't have students poking each other in the eyes, elbowing each other in the face, or kicking each other in the groin or the knees, you can't have them kneeing their partener in the face and the list goes on and on.  So most instructors have students punching, elbowing, kicking and kneeing pads, now some instructors may allowed elbow and knee strikes during sparring, but only to the body, even when instructors work in take downs, there really only so far one can go in appling their choke , arm lock, or ankle lock.  I teach my students about the "striking points of the body" but there really isn't any safe wait to apply and using a "bob bag" just isn't the same, so when instructor talk about reality "self-defense" they know that we as instructors can only go so far, when it comes actually appling our "self-defense" we try and come as colse as humanly possible during training, but we have to think safety during training, so our students don't get hurt.

Ken


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## decepticon (Jan 7, 2012)

While I agree that training in MA will not automatically make an 80 lb kid able to fend off a determined adult attacker, I think it can still be of great value.

My BIL teaches in the public school system and told me a couple of years ago that they have had to make teachers sign up for a rotating schedule for monitoring the restrooms - to prevent child to child sexual abuse. The grade level? Kindergarten. There are children being raised in the most horrific stiuations imaginable and then everyone is so surprised when they have trouble integrating with "normal" kids at school. BIL said that the biggest problem was from kids who were replicating that which they had seen at home on tv. Sure, we can rant and rave about how parents are dropping the ball or that administrators should do more to protect them. But the bottom line is that if a self defense class for children can enable a child to avoid such abuse, from someone approximately the same size and age, then I think it is an excellent reason for those classes.

One major complicating factor is the responsibility of also training the child student to not misuse their MA skills against others, to take down another kid in a fight over playground equipment. And another is to be sure they understand that their skills might not prevail against a larger, stronger opponent.

But it seems that the sad fact is that kids now have more need than ever to be able to defend themselves from other kids. As has been seen in recent years, the threat is no longer just bullying and perhaps a yanked underwear waistband, now the threats fall in the category of rape and even murder. And these things happen not when the kids make a bad decision and wonder into unsafe places at unwise times of day. These things happen when they are in school where their attendance is mandatory. They have no place to run, no other choice to make. Adults are unable to protect them all the time. They need to learn how to defend themselves. Who will teach them, if not the MA community?


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## Cyriacus (Jan 7, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> very difficult line teaching practical stuff to children for all the reasons quoted. The only thing I disagree with is the risk of annoying the attacker. It is this attitude (no criticsm of the child whatsoever) that leads many children to become victims and often repeat victims. I teach my young students to become little screaming dervishes that do the exact opposite of what the attacker expects (most child abusers expect a victim and anticipate control), making as much noise as possible and lookng for the earliest opportunity to escape. Its a horrible area but much of the psychological damage resulting from childhood abuse / assault manifests itself because the victim feels like they could have / should have done more (even when the reality is that they did as much as they could and the odds were stacked against them).


 If You were to punch Me in the Solar Plexus as hard as You could, it would not injure Me. Screaming Children annoy Me. Put both together, and You have a blend for Aggression. Make Me suddenly transform into a Pedophile, and You have a blend for Anger.

Of course, they need to resist. But Children need to resist in a way that is suited for Children, for Childrens Situations. An Adult can deliver Blunt Forced Trauma. A Child probably cant. Therefore, they need to focus on one concentrated attack on, say, an eye. Then run.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 7, 2012)

kbarrett said:


> Reality and children, the fact is the most children just like adults will freeze the moment their attacked, instructors can only go so are far, when it come to teach a reality based martial arts.
> 
> *And this is where I consider Myself fortunate, to be amongst those who does not, and has not frozen up. I do agree about Children however. Most of the time, they are awed by proper Violence. Even in Sparring, if a Kid is paired with someone Older, and that someone Older suddenly instinctively does some Power Strike at them, even if it misses, You can more often than not see the surprise on their face.*
> 
> ...



Just My Contribution.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 7, 2012)

decepticon said:


> While I agree that training in MA will not automatically make an 80 lb kid able to fend off a determined adult attacker, I think it can still be of great value.
> 
> My BIL teaches in the public school system and told me a couple of years ago that they have had to make teachers sign up for a rotating schedule for monitoring the restrooms - to prevent child to child sexual abuse. The grade level? Kindergarten. There are children being raised in the most horrific stiuations imaginable and then everyone is so surprised when they have trouble integrating with "normal" kids at school. BIL said that the biggest problem was from kids who were replicating that which they had seen at home on tv. Sure, we can rant and rave about how parents are dropping the ball or that administrators should do more to protect them. But the bottom line is that if a self defense class for children can enable a child to avoid such abuse, from someone approximately the same size and age, then I think it is an excellent reason for those classes.
> 
> ...



First, the Bold Underlined Italics.

And the bit after.
Yes, the Kids need to be able to Defend Themselves. But what if the Kid Theyre Defending Themself against is Trained in the same thing, but is better at it, or just more willing to use it due to their evident Hostility? And its damn hard to distinguish who should and who should not be taught. With Adults, its more obvious. But i clearly recall when I used to Train ITF, that a Red Belt was booted out, because it was found out He was bullying People at His School with it. He was a Teenager. But it took THAT long for someone to verifiably find out. Because there are very few ways with which to do that. It isnt easy. And then, if whoever is being Bullied, and the Bully, are both Trained, and the Bully is the more Hostile Fighter, and Overwhelms the Defender, the Defender just incited fierce retaliation.


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## aedrasteia (Jan 7, 2012)

I'm watching the thread drift. watching and noting.

Cyriacus, Chinto, WingChunian, kbarrett,decepticon: thank you for your contributions

but has each of you read the report? here: http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploa...resentment.pdf

Read it. With appropriate disclaimer that trial will take place and until its conclusion these are 'alleged' events,
I stand by my original points and my original request. 

Read it.   *Just read it.*

thanks


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 7, 2012)

Children's self defense should  have some form of physical training against attackers both their own size and against bigger predators, and like with adults self-defense should be focused on escape. With both children and adults it is more important to discuss how to avoid these situations all together, and in the case of children being molested it is important to teach them that it's ok to tell someone that these things are happening and that it is not their fault someone is doing these things to them. Child predators are crafty and groom children to be conditioned to doing what the predator wants. Teaching children and parents about predators and warning signs and behaviors and letting them know its okay to tell would be the most beneficial.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 7, 2012)

aedrasteia said:


> I'm watching the thread drift. watching and noting.
> 
> Cyriacus, Chinto, WingChunian, kbarrett,decepticon: thank you for your contributions
> 
> ...



I did read it. Unfortunately for Your intent, I prefer to remain Objective. The likelyhood of Misuse is more important than the likelyhood of Appropriate use in Children of these ages.
I am not blind to the harsh realities of what can take place, and the effects it has on people.
I choose to not be blinded BY those realities.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 7, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Children's self defense should  have some form of physical training against attackers both their own size and against bigger predators, and like with adults self-defense should be focused on escape. With both children and adults it is more important to discuss how to avoid these situations all together, and in the case of children being molested it is important to teach them that it's ok to tell someone that these things are happening and that it is not their fault someone is doing these things to them. Child predators are crafty and groom children to be conditioned to doing what the predator wants. Teaching children and parents about predators and warning signs and behaviors and letting them know its okay to tell would be the most beneficial.


Yes. Absolutely. My point is that if a Child tries to Fight an Adult, it probably wouldnt end well. But give themselves the means to Escape? That IS what They should be being taught. As well as Awareness of these Predators. But teaching Children to fight like Adults will just get them in trouble in a Real Situation.


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## WingChunIan (Jan 12, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> If You were to punch Me in the Solar Plexus as hard as You could, it would not injure Me. Screaming Children annoy Me. Put both together, and You have a blend for Aggression. Make Me suddenly transform into a Pedophile, and You have a blend for Anger.
> 
> Of course, they need to resist. But Children need to resist in a way that is suited for Children, for Childrens Situations. An Adult can deliver Blunt Forced Trauma. A Child probably cant. Therefore, they need to focus on one concentrated attack on, say, an eye. Then run.



Totally disagree, and if you are teaching children that a single shot to anywhere will be enough then I wish them luck. Firstly that shot has to land and secondly it has to do enough damage to completely disable their assailant for long enough to not simply grab and restrain the child. I agree with targetting the vulnerable points (or soft squidgy bits) and I would never teach anyone, not even a large adult to target the solar plexus in a street situation, but turning into a screaming banshee and throwing a quick burst has a far better chance of inducing the "what the f**k?" reaction than a single shot. The quickfire burst overwhelms the mental process preventing a quick physical reaction other than flinch which in turn gives the child (or the adult) the opportunity to run to the nearest point of likely help.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 12, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> Totally disagree, and if you are teaching children that a single shot to anywhere will be enough then I wish them luck. Firstly that shot has to land and secondly it has to do enough damage to completely disable their assailant for long enough to not simply grab and restrain the child. I agree with targetting the vulnerable points (or soft squidgy bits) and I would never teach anyone, not even a large adult to target the solar plexus in a street situation, but turning into a screaming banshee and throwing a quick burst has a far better chance of inducing the "what the f**k?" reaction than a single shot. The quickfire burst overwhelms the mental process preventing a quick physical reaction other than flinch which in turn gives the child (or the adult) the opportunity to run to the nearest point of likely help.


Thats a nice thought.
Lets change Solar Plexus to Ribs or Knees then. Solar Plexus is the example I used because a Kid may have trouble reaching the Floating Ribs.
And before You say 'GROIN!!!" Groin Kicks arent Lethal. In My Experience, itll hurt someone, but it wont incapacitate them. This is not television.
I was punched in the groin once. The idiot did it straight on instead of upward, and it did absolutely nothing.

Ive seen Child Abusers. They tend to be Violent. Im sure its nice in books, and for the Media to perpetrate that they harm children = Cowards, but do You think Children just say "Ok Mister, Ill just hold completely still and do nothing". Factor in Adrenal Shock. Children panic much more easily than Adults, and are less likely to go into a bloodlustful barrage. And even if they do, sure. Eyes are good. Now they need to Reach the eyes first. Break a leg somehow? Fine. Now the attackers fists are closer to the kid. Kick the groin? Fists = now closer to kid. Cause lots of pain? Of course, hes just gonna stand there and scream like a baby, completely unable to resist whilst the ninja kid bludgeons him.
And of course, this Attack has happened somewere completely public. Why would it happen in, say, a public toilet? I can try and dig up a newspaper article about a Kid who was attacked in a shopping center restroom, and his/her screams couldnt be heard through the walls. He/She tried to resist, and was found injured, if I recall correctly. In fact, it may have been worse than injured and molested.
Now lets take the Throat strike. Still not a 1 hit knockout. A shocker, sure. But again;  He wont just stand there forever.
Neck strike. Requires Power a kid cannot generate. Let alone actually reaching the neck.
Speed: If the Kid isnt as fast as an adult, hes prone to having his hands or legs grabbed.
Accuracy: Teach a Kid to be accurate whilst hes terrified. Good Luck.
Biting: Sure. Bite the hand. Oh wait, there ANOTHER hand. And feet, neatly close to any given kids head.
Retreat: Adults can run alot faster than kids.
Screaming: Kids scream all the time. It doesnt cause an army of worried adults to come swarming in with their warrior senses going.

What else, Good Sir?

EDIT: Also, I dont know how long Youve been here, but I like to debate things. My Opinions arent set in stone, and neither should Yours be. We are not argueing, so much as discussing. Even if we both end up agreeing to disagree, its the Conversation leading up to that which interests Me. Like now, for example. I am interested to hear Your response.


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## 72ronin (Jan 12, 2012)

So much talk of techniques?
Its just not an option, the kids are groomed or whatever the term is, they arent in a position to fight.

The only defense for this is for parents to talk with their children about what is actualy out there in the world. It has to be made clear about bounderies with people, what is appropriate behaviour etc.
Unfortunately for these kids, its seems they didnt have the family group to guide them closely through the most vulnerable part of their lives, and to be honest, that was very hard to read.

No child in this position is going to pull out some super moves and get away, they have already fallen into a trap before that point.
They need to be independant in their mind, strong enough to determine what is right from wrong, which will defend them from ever being led into this position in the first place.


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 12, 2012)

A topic worthy of discussion, and that in general as the OP seems to wish. The incident he linked to is something still under investigation and pending trial. Until that plays out, and more facts become known, one needs to be wary of drawing conclusions other than if any of what is reported in the link, it was a dispicable violation of law and morals.

As to the OP's question about SD: I would be very leary of teaching sexual SD to children of that age. That is a parental job. Simply because of the many things brought out in this thread already. There are liability issues in what you teach to the children and when they will use it, and with any parents who don't wish to warn their children, let them attend your class, and then get angry at what you taught them. I can expect there would be people who would complain you taught too much about sex, others would say too little.

And what physical defense is indeed good for a young child against an adult? As pointed out by Cyriacus, it may lead to further attack. What Cyriacus has not commented on is that most pedophiles are extremely fearful of being identified as such. That fear does not normally translate into killing a victim, although there are reports where it has. Note the response reported by Sandusky in one instance, where he admitted wrong doing (not sexual), promised it wouldn't happen again, and wished he were dead. That is simply an attempt to weasle out of the situation and try to get a little sympathy towards not being reported. And I don't think it is uncommon. So screaming may help stop an attempt. It will never be known until it has been attempted. Now, do any of you want to be the ones who did not teach that if it would have helped, or the one who did teach it and the child was killed?

What should be done? There are no easy answers that I know of. Certainly parents have an obligation to talk about how children can protect themselves. It doesn't necessarily have to be explicitly sexually oriented, but some discussion is good. I would suggest that a team of police, prosecutors, psychologists, and social workers, experienced in investigating and counseling victims and families, would have a better chance of helping. They can cover more bases, discuss how to best talk to children, or parents, or both. Children don't always have the words of an adult to describe what has or may happen. That also has to be taken into consideration when teaching both children and adults. Parents have to know that too. But other than a team of experienced professionals as I mentioned, I would not be part of teaching children, other than my own children or grandchildren, any such thing.


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