# Just curious to thoughts about tournaments?



## WyldFya (Nov 20, 2006)

Title says it, I'm curious what the members here think of full contact karate, as well as no-contact, or light contact?  I personally have fought in both, and prefer the no contact, but will wait to voice my opinions until a later time.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 20, 2006)

*I enjoy tournament competition, I have since I was young,but I do think that a karate ka should not put too much emphasis on training for tournaments. Especially in the noncontact and light contact tournaments. It creates a habid of pulling the strikes, that may in a real situation have bad results. As far as full contact competition goes. I enjoyed full contact fighting when I was younger. Now it is too hard on my body. That is definetly a young mans game. I do like the full contact Koshiki fighting with the head gear and the chest pads, without leg kicks. *
*I have fun with tournament competition, but that really is not what karate was intended for. It was for life and death situations, and the preservation of life.  I truly enjoy kata and weapons competition. *
*Eventhough there is nothing like getting in the ring and going toe to toe with an opponent.*


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## WyldFya (Nov 20, 2006)

I find your feelings of noncontact to be interesting.  I have fought both types as stated, and I personally feel that full contact is more limiting than the non contact.  More info about that later.


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## Cirdan (Nov 20, 2006)

Tournaments. Heh. Points. Heh. A Karateka craves not these things.


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## Grenadier (Nov 20, 2006)

Different strokes for different folks.  There's nothing really wrong with any of the above, as long as the people attending know what they're getting into.  

I've always held the belief that Karate is about making the person within, a better person, and from there, is where improvement in one's fighting abilities can follow.  If someone holds the belief that full, limited, or non contact tournaments can help improve themselves, then more power to them.  

I'm not going to argue for a specific method.  I've seen it done at all levels, and the tournaments succeed quite nicely.  

For example, people participating in the Kyokushin-kai's Knockdown Tournament get what they want: full contact, bare knuckle fighting in a controlled manner, in a highly disciplined setting.  

People who want their "almost no holds barred" competitions will fight in MMA, and get what they want. 

People who want to fight in sport Karate can attend tournaments that are sponsored by the WKF / USANKF, etc.  

There's nothing wrong with any of the above.  You do what you want to do, as long as you remember that it's a game, and that this game *can* help you become a better person.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 20, 2006)

*I prefer the USANKF/USAKF/AAU type tournaments because of the standards. I also like to go to the open events, its great entertainment.** I like the comeradery and friendships that are developed by competing in tournament curcuits. I have made friends from all over the country and from several countries because of competition.*
*When Tokey Hill was comimg up through the ranks he would go to all types of tournaments, to get a wide variety of experience in all types of tournament fighting.*
*What concerns me at the open events is the XMA trend of making gymnastic martial arts. Other that entertainment value and the high level of physical skill it involves it is pretty much usless in the sceme of reality in the martial arts.*


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## searcher (Nov 20, 2006)

I have done all kinds of tourneys, but I remain partial to knockdown karate tourneys.   They all have there positive and negative points.   Best part is having fun with fellow martial artists.


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## Robert Lee (Nov 20, 2006)

WyldFya said:


> I find your feelings of noncontact to be interesting. I have fought both types as stated, and I personally feel that full contact is more limiting than the non contact. More info about that later.


With no contact A persons does not train distance as well And can make more moves but those moves are not often safe moves for contact fighting. And much less safer for street fighting.  Most all point fighters when they have gone on to contact fighting have had to rethink and adjust there distance there power level and commitments So they often do not fare as well in there transitional fight. until they have regrouped for contact. Even light contact prepares you for real fighting better then points. BUT its what does the person want and is it just for the sport when you go for point spar . If so fine. But never think it is near what contact would expose.


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## Sensei Tom O'Brien (Nov 20, 2006)

We just came back from the FIMA Fall Classic karate tournament in NJ. Rich Faustini from the Faustini Institute of Martial Arts runs a good show.  There were about 250 competitors & we were done & out before 2:30pm.  7 of us competed.  David Weiss, 8 yrs. old, took 2nd pl. in kata & self defense.  My brown belt fought in the advanced div. for the 1st time.  He beat a red belt & was disqualified for head contact against a black belt.  It was a backfist & he barely touched him.  In the kids divisions they are strict.  I would have given him a warning & moved on.  It's partly my fault because in my dojo there is no such thing as 'no contact' to the head or face.  He took 4th pl.  Another green belt came in 4th in kumite also.  I took 2nd in kata & I felt good.  They did not have an over 45 div so I competed against both young & old.  There were about 10 competitors.  Out of 7 people we took home 3 trophies.  The important thing is that the students learn & the Ronin Martial Arts Club is respected in the tournament circuit.  The only bad thing is that I took a camera & I didnt take any pics.  I get so involved in the officiating & competition that I totally forget.  OK what does all this have to do with a comparison?  I have done full contact too.  When I was much younger.  Point karate has more varied & probably more accessable competitions for the average Joe who works.  I'm too old to do full-contact now.
Thanks,
Sensei Tom


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## WyldFya (Nov 22, 2006)

Robert Lee said:


> With no contact A persons does not train distance as well And can make more moves but those moves are not often safe moves for contact fighting. And much less safer for street fighting.  Most all point fighters when they have gone on to contact fighting have had to rethink and adjust there distance there power level and commitments So they often do not fare as well in there transitional fight. until they have regrouped for contact. Even light contact prepares you for real fighting better then points. BUT its what does the person want and is it just for the sport when you go for point spar . If so fine. But never think it is near what contact would expose.


Ok, here I go.

Full contact is quite a bit of fun, however most have too many rules, such as Kyokushin.  They do not allow punches to the head, and thus never prepare themselves for a real fight.  I have heard thousands of times the line, "No-contact doesn't prepare you for the real world of fighting", and "you train to stop your punches."  How many have fought these tournaments on the higher levels, such as worlds?  Pulling your punches is bad, as we all know, but there is a HUGE difference between pulling your strikes, and controlling your strikes.  As with board breaking, Martial arts are not meant to be a show of power in all aspects.  It is a balence between technique speed and power. Which is harder to do... controlling yourself, or letting yourself go?  When I first made the switch to full contact fighting, I found it to be too easy.  Few people use what is given in full contact effectively.  A flying knee to the head is legal in many types of full contact fighting, and very easy to land, if you set it up right.  This can easily win several fights.  THere are also several techniques that are used quite often on the street that can end fights very quickly.  Even the simple round kick to the thigh is usually under powered.  Although they still hit hard, they aren't using their hips.  Full contact, even to black belts IME, has taught them to use their strength, but not technique.  Too often have I seen people throw front kicks, or round kicks without using their hips.  Too often have I seen jab cross combos, where the cross doesn't even get the hip moving.  Uppercuts are used, but they are all muscle, no drive coming from the legs, and hips.  Are these flaws restricted to full contact... no, but they are more common in full contact.  The only way you can truly learn how to fight, is to do it for real, no rules, no limits, just survival.  I have had to do this on a few occasions.  This is the only way that anyone will learn where their short comings are.  What may work on a martial artist, will most likely not even present an option for in the real world.  Getting in close and punching and kicking do you no good, when they pull a knife.  You must be alert, and ready to react, with speed.  Often survival in real fights can come down to who reacts, and moves faster.  I'm not condoning that people go out and fight.  If you want to see what it is like, get a FRIEND and fight, but tell them no holding back.  Each experience will be different, and each will teach you something you didn't know about fighting.  

To each his own, but in order to make a unbiased claim, you have to have fought from both sides of the line, and then outside the box.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 22, 2006)

*A friend and myself did this once after he came home on leave. We were driking a few beers and he decided he wanted to show me what he had learned.  so, after a few minutes, I picked him up off of the floor and attended to his cuts from my size 10 shoes on his face.   I got a finger poke in the eye. It was fun, but I really don't like playing around like that. I could have really hurt my best friend.  Lesson learned. Don't add beer. hehe.*
*  On another note. I have been to many tournaments where it was supposed to be light contact. I had my nose broken three times. numersous bruises and broken fingers and toes. I think that people many time get hurt in the tournaments that still spar on hard wood basketball courts and get swept,without knowing their breakfalls.  Even with the non or light contact marker on the competition, you still have to deal with the adrenalin and anxiety rush of someone attacking you at full speed. Its training in controling stress and your emotions. If you can't control your emothions in a fight then not matter how good you technique is it may fail. *


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 23, 2006)

I don't fight in tournaments or teach tournament sparring. I find it unrealistic in comparison to what happens on the street.


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## thewhitemikevick (Nov 23, 2006)

Yea me and my friends have done that before. When we were younger we did it pretty often, actually. But in my experience, really, it's still different than a street fight because obviously you're fighting your friend, someone that's not going to want to kill you, and when on the streets, where anything can happen, you're fighting an ENEMY, an opponent who probably doesn't know you and is indifferent to whether or not you get hurt or killed, or hurting you or killing you may be their ONLY intent. So it's different. There really aren't good ways to measure your street prowess other than actually getting into a fight, which isn't something that I suggest anyone goes around purposely trying to do. 

No Contact, Light Contact, Full Contact. They all have their purposes. And they all provide interesting matches, with different tactics and techniques employed at each different system of rules. They all have things that you can gain from them, but no system will teach you how to streetfight. They will HELP you, undoubtedly, but nothing can truly prepare you for the street. However, there are things you can do to help prepare you, and some work better than others. But which those are that work better than others is hard to determine without being a member of the video game cast for Street Fighter, or magically becoming Tony Jaa in the world of Ong Bak lol.


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## searcher (Nov 23, 2006)

WyldFya,  I understand your position on there beign to many rules in most styles of full-contact.   I have found this to be very frustrating and always look for the little tourneys that allow a wider variety of techniques and maybe are a little more lax on rules.   I have fought in some local tourneys that allowed you to do almost anything as long as it was stand-up.   I find these to be very interesting and also disturbing at the same time.   My problem that I have with no/little-contact is that they are very impractical and they are poor from a training position.   You will fight the way you train and if you are training with little or no contact you will fight this way on the street.   I do not encourage anybody to do this style of training or competition.   You may not think it will affect your skills, but it does.   If you do choose to do this type of fighting keep in iknd that it could mess with your fighting ability in the long run.    JMHO.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 23, 2006)

*Yes in many ways you are correct. Competitive sparring does teach students how to handle the stress of being attacked, even though it is totally controlled. It also teaches them to think on their feet and develop strategy. Control over ones emotions also. In the other part of competition, like kata competition, it shows how a student has developed technique,power,and concentration. I have been in several street confrontations and have made the mistake of not attacking with full power, because at the time I was training for tournaments. I was able to deal with the confrontation with control because I learned how to control the adrenalin rush of attack by sparring. How to control the position of my attacker. So, tournament sparring was not a total waste. Plus it is and enjoyable sport. As long as one keeps in mind the difference between sport and real situations and trains for both. Then a martial artist can be effective.*
*I think that competition does give students a positive outlet for their time and it is a fun activity. And because of it the martial arts are in the mainstream and have become more popular. There is nothing wrong with schools that do not participate in sport. There is also nothing wrong with doing sport. I don't think that schools should focus totally on sport.There has to be reality based training in their curriculum as well. If you do not think that it is an avenue that you want you training to go in that is fine as well. I wish you good luck in your journey and peace to you.:karate: *







IWishToLearn said:


> I don't fight in tournaments or teach tournament sparring. I find it unrealistic in comparison to what happens on the street.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 24, 2006)

*Oh, one more thing. Tournaments are not just about competition. It is also about martial artist getting together in the spirit of sportsmanship and friendship. About learning from each other.  Showing each other respect. Testing ones skill level against people of other styles and schools.*


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## WyldFya (Nov 24, 2006)

searcher said:


> WyldFya,  I understand your position on there beign to many rules in most styles of full-contact.   I have found this to be very frustrating and always look for the little tourneys that allow a wider variety of techniques and maybe are a little more lax on rules.   I have fought in some local tourneys that allowed you to do almost anything as long as it was stand-up.   I find these to be very interesting and also disturbing at the same time.   My problem that I have with no/little-contact is that they are very impractical and they are poor from a training position.   You will fight the way you train and if you are training with little or no contact you will fight this way on the street.   I do not encourage anybody to do this style of training or competition.   You may not think it will affect your skills, but it does.   If you do choose to do this type of fighting keep in iknd that it could mess with your fighting ability in the long run.    JMHO.


Just curiousdid you start in no contact or full?  I started in no contact, and when I switched, there was no problem.  I have never had a problem in a real fight ever.  As I said it is easier to let go of your control, than it is to gain your control.


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## searcher (Nov 24, 2006)

WyldFya said:


> Just curiousdid you start in no contact or full? I started in no contact, and when I switched, there was no problem. I have never had a problem in a real fight ever. As I said it is easier to let go of your control, than it is to gain your control.


 
I started out in light contact and then went to kickboxing then on to knockdown and its varients.    I have also boxed and done submission grappling and many more types of fighting.


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## JackShadow (Dec 18, 2006)

I enjoy point based fighting in tournaments where hand pads are worn.  Yes, you must pull your punches and use control, but isn't control one of the fundamental things to have as a martial artist?  The fighting can get rough in the higher levels such as men's 17-34 black belt division, and yet serious injury is not very common.  It serves as a testiment to the control of your own body.  What worth is a punch if you cannot control where it goes or how hard you are hitting with.

Point based fighting shows you your weaknesses and allows you to improve upon them and is suitable for all ages.  A little kid can fight and not get hurt, and a 27 year old can fight and not be sore for a week afterward.  You also can do a lot more fights in one day allowing you t have more chances to learn and more chances to have fun.   I believe that you must take your studies seriously, but if your not enjoying what your doing then its probably not for you.

Also, as someone said about me, tournaments are there to learn from each other and to share ideas and thoughts, not just to see who can win or who is better.


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## zDom (Dec 18, 2006)

My 2 cents:

 I empathize with the person who got broken noses in "point style" competitions. I've been to TOO many "point style" tournaments where the center ref let the other guy smack me with a full contact technique right off the bat, awarding a point instead of a warning.

I don't MIND heavy or even full contact  heck, I kind of ENJOY it  But let me know in _*advance*_ what kind of contact is REALLY going to be allowed.

For that reason, I almost think a full-contact sport like Olympic TKD is often safer for everybody involved because everybody KNOWS from the get-go what they are in for.

 My preference for tournaments and free sparring is medium to heavy contact for body shots and very light (or even NO contact) to the face with light to medium contact to the head.

There are a lot of competitors who have to go to work Monday morning and would rather do so WITHOUT a five-stitch cut or black eye.

If both people are mature about it, you both KNOW when a face shot would have caused some serious pain and injury. 

But absorbing some body shots helps you learn to absorb them better and to mitigate their effects. Likewise, a little shot to the side or top of the head can help you learn to deal with the effects of a head shot without risking dental work, facial scars or a shiner.

 I agree with the WyldFya's (I think it was) comment regarding how it is easier to go full out then to control techniques.

I have NEVER had a problem blasting people with techniques. (Nor with absorbing hard shots, for that matter). Same story for those who I have trained with.

But IMO it truly takes a lot more skill to throw hard, fast techniques with light contact. Not PULLED shots, but FULL SPEED, FULL POWER shots aimed at the SURFACE instead of penetration.

IMO, this type of "focus" (in three dimensions) gives you the ability not only to go hard and fast with a feather touch, but ALSO gives you the ability to really hit people HARD: you simply adjust that focus for two or three inches (or more ) past the surface plane.


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## twendkata71 (Dec 19, 2006)

*Good post, Zdom.*


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