# So what is a DATU of Modern Arnis



## Rich Parsons (May 22, 2006)

Can those that study Modern Arnis give us a description of:

What a Datu is? 

What are the qualifications if any?



(* I know the list of six, and if they are referenced or care to reply so much the better. *)


----------



## HKphooey (May 22, 2006)

Datu means chieftain or leader.  In arnis that translation can be interpruted as a oraganization head.  Not sure if I have ever seen any qualifications for the title other than a group of followers that have nominated or elected that individual.   It is also used to designate royalty.

I look forward to any more info on this subject.


----------



## The Game (May 24, 2006)

Found this http://martialpedia.com/

Datu
From MartialTalk Online Martial Arts Encyclopedia Project
Contents
[hide]

    * 1 Datu in Filipino Martial Arts
    * 2 Datu, What does it mean?
    * 3 Who are the Datus in Modern Arnis?
    * 4 Datus in Modern Arnis
    * 5 Datu vs Rank
    * 6 Sources

[edit]
Datu in Filipino Martial Arts

The title "Datu" has been bestowed upon 6 practitioners of the martial art known as Modern Arnis. Remy Presas, the founder of the system, decided to use the title as a "leadership" signifier, separate from rank. It has been the source of some controversy in the Filipino based systems.

[edit]
Datu, What does it mean?

Chieftain, Leader, or Warlord are the ways that it has been decribed to me in the Filipino culture. I have talked to several Masters & Grandmasters of Filipino heritage. It has also been referred to as a Spiritual Leader. Any one you chose, it has a significant meaning in their culture. - Datu Tim Hartman
[edit]
Who are the Datus in Modern Arnis?

Shishir Inocalla, Kelly Worden, Ric Jornales, David Hoffman, Dieter Knuettel, Tim Hartman
[edit]
Datus in Modern Arnis

As Remy decribed to me on several occasions, Datu is a leadership title in the original IMAF. One of the main reasons that Remy bestowed the title on me was the fact that I chose to lead by example. When it came time to get promoted I would insist on testing in front of everyone. I was not afraid of being seen by our community. I thought, and still do think, that too much rank was given out for political reasons and not for technical ones. In 1999 Remy offered my the title. I turned it down because, at that time, I didn't feel that I was ready for it. The following year I was offered it again and accepted it. Talking to many of the East Coast Modern Arnis people, they feel that only one title supercedes Datu and that was Grandmaster. - Datu Tim Hartman
[edit]
Datu vs Rank

The title is separate from rank. When I was first offered it, I was only a fifth. Remy thought that leadership ability had nothing to do with what they wear on their waist. This is why I was put in charge of the Can-Am charpter of the IMAF while he was alive. At the time, there were several active memebers who out ranked me but he still chose to put me in charge of that and several other projects of his. The same went for Punong-Guro; rank was separate from that also. It means teacher of teachers. I was also the only one in the IMAF that I know of that Remy bestowed that title on. - Datu Tim Hartman


[edit]
Sources

Original Wiki Entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datu
MartialTalk.com: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=497


----------



## Dan Anderson (May 31, 2006)

The Game said:
			
		

> Found this http://martialpedia.com/
> 
> I was also the only one in the IMAF that I know of that Remy bestowed that title on. - Datu Tim Hartman
> 
> ...


 
Actually David Hoffman is a member of IMAF and he is also a datu.

The only problem with the "What is a datu?" question is that Prof. Presas never _broadly_ explained what it meant in the framework of Modern Arnis.  He told the recipients of the title what he told them but never broadly disseminated the news.  This is the same of the Master of Tapi-Tapi title and others.

By the way, this has been worked over so thoroughly over the years since Remy's death that this is very old news, the same as the promotion issue that has been the buzz of another FMA forum as of late.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 5, 2006)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Actually David Hoffman is a member of IMAF and he is also a datu.
> 
> The only problem with the "What is a datu?" question is that Prof. Presas never _broadly_ explained what it meant in the framework of Modern Arnis. He told the recipients of the title what he told them but never broadly disseminated the news. This is the same of the Master of Tapi-Tapi title and others.
> 
> ...



Dan,

Please give me some rope here, I do have an agenda for topics to discuss and clarify.

Thank you

Also Could you send me a PM on this other forum you mention?


----------



## monkey (Jun 5, 2006)

If Datu means Chiefton or spiritual leader.I ask my self 1 small question.What Tribe are the a chiefton of?I wounder how these tribes take it.That some one who has not stepped in the philippines as a philippino became Cheifton of their tribe.The people live & breath the art.How is it an Amrican can over rank those born to it.I know each wepon on my Ethagowa shield is made by that founder or named after.Now these Datus over rank as Chiefton.I have to corollate this to 1 British deu to meeting some one of native race is now Chief of the Indian tribe like Apatchee.Why would this be.


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder (Jun 5, 2006)

Does anyone else understand what the Monkey just said? I'm left "_woundering_" too.  But, I will take some heavy LDS and see if I can figure this out.

According to numerous sources, the title of "Datu" means just what was stated in the MTE entry.  It's use as a martial arts title has known its share of controversy.  There are a few other non Modern Arnis martial arts Datus out there, Halford Jones being one of them.

The late GM Presas selected this title, as a way of giving tribute to his homeland, and keeping the Filipino flavor in his art, over the usual JMA flavorings used and overly misused by others.  As the long time expert here, you would of course be aware of that.

It is a Filipino title, given to his chosen leaders of his art. Several reports indicate that there were to have been 10 Datus, who would form a sort of "Think Tank" to help take the art to the next level by blending their own innovations and stylings back into it.

How can an American overrank someone born into it?  Easily. By surpassing them in skill, ambition and leadership.  

The rest of your ramblings I have no idea on what you could possibly mean.  Purhaps you can confabrconlate use with more perstigeuos democrates of illicit verbiage, postmorbin?


----------



## arnisador (Jun 5, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> I will take some heavy LDS


 
I didn't even know you were Mormon.

I had the impression that the Professor thought of this as a _historical_ title in the Phil., which is now a republic, and so I doubt he would have shared *monkey*'s concerns about offending current legitimate title-holders. I have no doubt that the title is still used by some, but like titles on nobility in France or Germany, it's now just a personal style. I might add that Modern Arnis is not the only art to use the title; e.g., Datu Halford Jones, mentioned here.


----------



## monkey (Jun 5, 2006)

The question is what is a datu?i did not say no one isnt or they asre not legit.I asked if if ment Chiefton or spiritual leader-what tribe ar the the leader of.You realy need tolern to read befor you try to mis quote me & try to make me look bad.Read the thred title What is a datu.I just asked a question i did not accuse.You are toltasly out of context on that.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 5, 2006)

Another needless multiplication of rank (or not rank...leadership position?) IMO. It confuses me, but thats not so difficult to do.


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder (Jun 5, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> The question is what is a datu?i did not say no one isnt or they asre not legit.I asked if if ment Chiefton or spiritual leader-what tribe ar the the leader of.You realy need tolern to read befor you try to mis quote me & try to make me look bad.Read the thred title What is a datu.I just asked a question i did not accuse.You are toltasly out of context on that.


Yes, the question is "What is a Datu".
A question which I answered.

You asked "What Tribe are they the Chieftain of?", which I admit to missing, an error I can be excused of considering your atrocious grammar.
Answer: The Tribe of Modern Arnis Practitioners, within the then-IMAF. With the demise of the IMAF (now 2 separate factions), I would believe that each Datu is head (or "Chief") of their own organizations, or seen as independent leaders within the art as a whole.

As to "My" learning to read, my reading abilities are quite good, as are my writing abilities. I spend quite a bit of my day reading forums, the NY Times, various classics by well known authors such as Shakespeare, Ziglar and Flint.

Now, as to your own reading and writing skills.
You Sir, could take the time to learn to "Write" clearer, maybe use proper punctuation, indentation and spacing, as well as proper spelling and grammar.  There are free spell checkers that will work with most web browsers, as well as most email programs, that are as simple as "right click - spellcheck". 
If you would write better, then you wouldn't get anywhere near as much grief as you do. There are at least 20 spelling, spacing and grammatical errors in what you wrote above. I do not have to try to make you look bad. You make yourself look bad, like an uneducated buffoon. You obviously have experience, and knowledge, two items that are of great value here. Unfortunately you lack the ability to communicate in this medium. I strongly encourage you to seek ways to improve your written communication skills, so that we can avoid further misunderstandings. There are free programs available in most locations within the United States that will provide you with that training. I suggest contacting your local libraries and community centers for more information.


----------



## monkey (Jun 5, 2006)

I speak many langues in part this you know aready.It was gone over in who is tom carnes & post is locked.you know as a fact I speak good english & writting skill ok only.Yet you tend to seek out & realy not read.In not the only 1 on this site that makes typo errors.Yet you Black Adder are content to seek out me & try to high lihgt faults.Yet on the posts of the jab & the posts of the front snap many enjoyed my wriiteng 7 thoughts.Only you came in & tried to demean on those pages.I dont seek out posts you do & say who is Black adder.who certified him tho be the leading authority on what faults people can or cant have,Is this how you do martial arts.Look for fault in their spelling due to their nationality.Not good.


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder (Jun 5, 2006)

Tom,
  I have not mentioned your "nationality". From what I've heard however, you are an American male caucasian, living in California, and English is your native language. While it is true, yes, Americans do talk "funny" and not the Queens English, this site is populated with hundreds of Americans, yet you are the only one incapable of using proper spelling, grammer, punctuation, capitalization and spacing. I gave my advice. I answered the questions. You however continue to post incomprehesible mazes of wordage. I frazzle my postits and wrancle my cumberbung tinking boot you eh.


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder (Jun 5, 2006)

Now you posted the above.
Properly formatted, it should have looked like this.  Of course, I took the liberty of correcting your spelling, grammer, punctuation and often sentence structure:

I speak many langu*g*es; in part this you know aready.  It was gone over in who is tom carnes & *the* post is locked.  *Y*ou know as a fact I speak good english & *my* _writing_ skill *is* ok only.  Yet you tend to seek out & real*l*y not read.  I*'m* not the only 1 on this site that makes typ*ing* errors.  Yet you*,* Black Adder are content to seek *me out* & try to high *light my* faults.  Yet on the posts of the jab & the posts of the front snap many enjoyed my _writing_ 7 thoughts.  Only you came in & tried to demean on those pages.  I dont seek out posts you do & say who is _Blackadder_.  *W*ho certified him *to* be the leading authority on what faults people can or cant have*.* Is this how you do martial arts*?*  Look for fault in their spelling due to their nationality.  Not good.

It's nice that you speak many languages. It is a shame that you cannot write in your primary one.
It is hard to read when what one is trying to read is poorly writen.
I am not seeking you out, it is your atrocious writing that is catching my eye.
It is hard to seek out my posts and demean me, as I am perfect, near godhood in fact.
A proper college education and attention to detail is what certified me.
I don't care about your nationality, faith, gender, art, style, rank, title, age, etc. I do care about the arts.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> *Y*ou know as a fact I speak good english & *my* _writing_ skill *is* ok only.


 
Edmund, I admit I am a funny talking American but wouldn't that be 

"You know for a fact I speak english well & my writing skill is just ok."


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 5, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> If Datu means Chiefton or spiritual leader.I ask my self 1 small question.What Tribe are the a chiefton of?I wounder how these tribes take it.That some one who has not stepped in the philippines as a philippino became Cheifton of their tribe.The people live & breath the art.How is it an Amrican can over rank those born to it.I know each wepon on my Ethagowa shield is made by that founder or named after.Now these Datus over rank as Chiefton.I have to corollate this to 1 British deu to meeting some one of native race is now Chief of the Indian tribe like Apatchee.Why would this be.


 

Tom,

Where do you get off with these comments?

You come here and make claims that you are the ONE AND ONLY GUARDIAN and WHO ARE THESE OTHERS? And other titles and claims. 

Then you get all bent over a simple question and then step back and blame others for your attititude. You claim to speak English well and only type it so so, how about reading it? The reason I ask is that you are acting like a TROLL with your actions. Disruptive posts - attacking others when there is no attack on you. 


So if every thread must be about you, then how come it is ok for you to have a title and rank and others are not?


----------



## monkey (Jun 5, 2006)

I never question the ranks of the Datus.Only the definiton.Even Hong Kong Phoo ee on this post stated it mean chiefton or spiritual leader.How is it the terminology or definition when stated by be is also stated by others but I get dummed on.Not 1 person said pro or con to the definition that HKF did.I hold a rank as guardian.This dose not (to me mean I am the flame keeper as some say.To me -read this & see if you see it as my point & why i have it>To me it means the same as the 4 Guardians of Karate & at the time Funakosho was 1.To me the guardian  means I protect the art & make sure Its precieved  or tought right.Like I state in the Who is Tom Carnes thred -The Presas family was talked to me many hours on the phone & have video  of  me  & copies of my ranks.Remy jr. Hooked up with Kelly Warden As he has money & can promote seminars.I am just me.No big school.Just privote out of the house like a lot of my teacher did,Bruce Lee-James Lee-Conyete-Telisporo-Subing Subing- to name a few.I had the best of the best teachers.Jose Presas for example.So Both Remy & ernesto gave me the rank.How is it you cant except it & just lern what I have of offer.I could take a stand & declair the De tranka ect. is far from the combat.I dont & Remy jr. understands why.I dont need to explain to you what transpired between us or Remy or Ernesto.I offer the art.Lern from It & have fun.Give it a try.My ranks are authentic-as well my time in privotes.Like you said Remy took you to side & tought you.,Your not the 1st he did this with.Except he did it with me & have fun.


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jun 5, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Answer: The Tribe of Modern Arnis Practitioners, within the then-IMAF. With the demise of the IMAF (now 2 separate factions), I would believe that each Datu is head (or "Chief") of their own organizations, or seen as independent leaders within the art as a whole.


 
That's as good as explanation as any.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jun 5, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Tom,
> 
> You come here and make claims that you are the ONE AND ONLY GUARDIAN...


 
Hi Tom,

I am way out of the loop on this.  What is this Guardian title and when was it awarded?  This is a query and not an attack.  I just don't know.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## monkey (Jun 5, 2006)

Thanks for the comp. I will always be open to play.As Proffersor or Grandmaster said.(It is a beautiful art-It is easy & fun-I want to share with all to know-You know!)      That statement should say a bit on its own.It is fun & share with all.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 5, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> I never question the ranks of the Datus.Only the definiton.Even Hong Kong Phoo ee on this post stated it mean chiefton or spiritual leader.How is it the terminology or definition when stated by be is also stated by others but I get dummed on.Not 1 person said pro or con to the definition that HKF did.I hold a rank as guardian.This dose not (to me mean I am the flame keeper as some say.To me -read this & see if you see it as my point & why i have it>To me it means the same as the 4 Guardians of Karate & at the time Funakosho was 1.To me the guardian means I protect the art & make sure Its precieved or tought right.Like I state in the Who is Tom Carnes thred -The Presas family was talked to me many hours on the phone & have video of me & copies of my ranks.Remy jr. Hooked up with Kelly Warden As he has money & can promote seminars.I am just me.No big school.Just privote out of the house like a lot of my teacher did,Bruce Lee-James Lee-Conyete-Telisporo-Subing Subing- to name a few.I had the best of the best teachers.Jose Presas for example.So Both Remy & ernesto gave me the rank.How is it you cant except it & just lern what I have of offer.I could take a stand & declair the De tranka ect. is far from the combat.I dont & Remy jr. understands why.I dont need to explain to you what transpired between us or Remy or Ernesto.I offer the art.Lern from It & have fun.Give it a try.My ranks are authentic-as well my time in privotes.Like you said Remy took you to side & tought you.,Your not the 1st he did this with.Except he did it with me & have fun.


 
Tom,

You back pedal and then you change the subject and bring up names of others to divert attention from yourself, and then you also bring up your name dropping again. 

All trollish behaviours.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 5, 2006)

Dan,
 The title was awarded apparently by Ernesto. Theres a long read about that and a number of other matters in the locked "Who is Tom Carnes" thread.
On a side note, I finally got Toms video uploaded.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34778

Ok, back to Datumania.


----------



## arnisador (Jun 5, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> talk



Passable, but I think 'speak' is preferable here.



> Queens



Clearly, should be Queen's (possessive), not Queens (plural).



> grammer



Now, this is a personal favorite. 'Grammar' is likely what you're looking for here.



> incomprehesible



Missing an 'n'.

Ah, the *MartialTalk *pile-on. Woe be unto those who 'think different(ly)'.


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder (Jun 5, 2006)

Well,  I never said I finished college. Just that I had some. :wavey:


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jun 6, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Dan,
> The title was awarded apparently by Ernesto. Theres a long read about that and a number of other matters in the locked "Who is Tom Carnes" thread.
> On a side note, I finally got Toms video uploaded.
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34778
> ...


 
Which Tom?  Carnes or Bolden?  And where?  I just visited the video link site and didn't see Tom Carnes.  Thanks for the answer to the Q.

Yours,
Dan


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 6, 2006)

Dan,
  Which Tom?  Tom Carnes. 
  Where? At the link I provided.  Haven't updated the main video section yet. I put his in Members in Motion for now.

Bob


----------



## MJS (Jun 6, 2006)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Which Tom? Carnes or Bolden? And where? I just visited the video link site and didn't see Tom Carnes. Thanks for the answer to the Q.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan


 
Check this link out Dan.  

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=554568#post554568

These are clips of Tom Carnes.

Mike


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 6, 2006)

Could I request that this thread be copied and renamed, and then the original be trimmed?


----------



## PeteNerd (Jun 11, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Can those that study Modern Arnis give us a description of:
> 
> What a Datu is?
> 
> ...



As far as the connotation in the Philippines today, there are still Datus.  
The Supreme Council of Datu Alimaong also known as the Holy Warriors. The Holy Warriors is a group of ethnic tribes from the the Visayas and Mindanao. They are an organization that fights for the rights and land of the indigenous people of the philippines.

I witnessed one of their induction ceremonies and it was one of the most amazing things I have ever seen.  They were inducting new Datus, and they sacrificed a few chickens and a cow for the ceremony.  There were a lot of offerings made to the new datus in way of performances and music.  My balintawak instructor and I did a demo as an offering.  Then there was a huge feast... it was pretty incredible.


Pete


----------



## monkey (Jun 11, 2006)

Pete Nerd Im I correct in saying that this highly respected cerimonie is part of the Trible Datu rites?Is it fair to say I was right in the above that 
these Datus would not be to found of the ones who didnt go threw such & yet have the title?This is a religous & almost hariteage rite as passed down If I am correct in this definiton of Datu-not so much as to who can or cant but iis it a birth rite like Ive been told?Ive posted above for not putting down the rank just the definition I was told of -was I correct?Look back a few post above yours.Im interested in knowing if I was told the right definiton of Datu.


----------



## PeteNerd (Jun 12, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> Pete Nerd Im I correct in saying that this highly respected cerimonie is part of the Trible Datu rites?Is it fair to say I was right in the above that
> these Datus would not be to found of the ones who didnt go threw such & yet have the title?This is a religous & almost hariteage rite as passed down If I am correct in this definiton of Datu-not so much as to who can or cant but iis it a birth rite like Ive been told?Ive posted above for not putting down the rank just the definition I was told of -was I correct?Look back a few post above yours.Im interested in knowing if I was told the right definiton of Datu.



Yes you are correct... It is pretty much the equivalent of a native american chief or a spiritual/religious leader of the tribes.  It's a pretty serious title as far as Filipino tribal society goes.  Whether people in modern arnis choose to use the title of datu is none of my business, but I wouldn't take the use of that title lightly.  Not sure if the real datus would be offended or not.  A lot of filipinos aren't even concerned with their tribal heritage, but the ones that are take it very very seriously.

Pete


----------



## monkey (Jun 12, 2006)

Thank you for that I was there in 75-79 When jose tought.I got to see a Datu cerimony as well.Some parts back then to a young boy,
were not only odd but fightning.I vowed Id never except past master.
Though the training i did was far more-I say the master should be sufficent for U.S. as the ways there are differant then here.
Do you  agree i took a good stand & say let the tribe have the tribe heritage.All others are welcome but,take heed & give honor to the sacrate art of Datu.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 12, 2006)

PeteNerd said:
			
		

> As far as the connotation in the Philippines today, there are still Datus.
> The Supreme Council of Datu Alimaong also known as the Holy Warriors. The Holy Warriors is a group of ethnic tribes from the the Visayas and Mindanao. They are an organization that fights for the rights and land of the indigenous people of the philippines.
> 
> I witnessed one of their induction ceremonies and it was one of the most amazing things I have ever seen. They were inducting new Datus, and they sacrificed a few chickens and a cow for the ceremony. There were a lot of offerings made to the new datus in way of performances and music. My balintawak instructor and I did a demo as an offering. Then there was a huge feast... it was pretty incredible.
> ...



Pete,

Thank you for the information. 

While I respect the PI culture, I have to make a couple of comments.

1) This post was in the Modern Arnis section so while I agree it is good to have the historical comments, I actually meant what is a Datu in Modern Arnis.

2) Would those people in the USA need to get upset when the President of another country is called Mr. President. The title was not used as such until after the USA Presidents used it. 

So based upon number 2 as it is acceptable to have someone else use a title, as it is a word, then could we move this thread forward to #1, what is a Datu in Modern Arnis? 

Thank you


----------



## monkey (Jun 13, 2006)

Technicaly speaking,The word was Reserved for the Tribe members only-Hard core-born into the art.There have been a few system,
Like Modern Arnis that take from arts as they need it to "Grow." Karate-jujitsu-ect.
The ranks that were in Kali & others like Tirsa are copy writted & in some cases ---will cause conflick if used as such.Even out rihgt fights.
Note "the example I have stated here!"----
"Karate"---it is widely used but dose not have a copy write or any other 
such from useage.But--"American Kempo"--"Kosho" --"Kajukempo"--"Kajakenpo"--"Ishinryu"--These are specificly noted & copy writes too.
Herein the founder Remy wanted Special titles for some that showed alittle more then Masters & set them apart.Hence the title Datu.
The original art to the Datu is off the kali lines & others as well.Modern Arnis was formed around 1970 & recignised 1975 Hence the 1st patch I shown on my demo dvd.This patch started the era were "Jose" tought the Armed Forces & eventualy "Ernesto" took over in 1980.
The Datu was not part of Modern Arnis.The ranks in kali are " yukan"  "Lakan"  "Lakan Guru Isa"  Lakan Guru Dalawa"  "Guru  Isa"  Guru Diliwa" Guru Tatlo"   "Guru Apat"  Mataas Guru"    "Maginoo"   "Tuhon"  &  if they pass the ritual test "Datu"  Spiritual Leader  or  Warrior Chiefton!  This was in Honor of the Great Lapu Lapu & the battle with El Cortez! That is the Datu.Not Part of the Modern Arnis!
There are how erer Datus in Escrima & the arts of Kuntao.


----------



## PeteNerd (Jun 13, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Pete,
> 
> Thank you for the information.
> 
> ...



I have no idea what a Datu is in Modern Arnis.  It's probably whatever Remy Presas wanted it to be and beyond that I'm sure it's really hard to quantify.   Seems like certain ranks were doled out as he deemed fit.

Pete


----------



## PeteNerd (Jun 13, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Pete,
> 
> Thank you for the information.
> 
> ...



So given these assertions I guess one could logically conclude that the Datus of modern arnis are the leaders of the different tribes of modern arnis.  Then the question is, how many tribes of modern arnis are there?

Pete


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 13, 2006)

Monkey,

     Remy gave out ranks and titles as he deemed fit as the head of Modern Arnis.  Whatever rank or title he gave is beyond reproach because he deemed that you were at that level and as the founder or Modern Arnis he had that right.  When he gave people the title of Datu, he designated them as a group with Modern Arnis and their Datu title is specific to Modern Arnis and should cause no concern to anyone else other than people practicing Modern Arnis.  He also gave out title's such as the Master's of Tapi Tapi, Senior Master, etc.  Each issued are specific to what he was doing at that time and what he wanted them to stand for.
Do not question what Remy did as that is not appropriate because he cannot defend himself.  Bottom line as the founder of Modern Arnis he had the right to create titles within Modern Arnis as he deemed.  

     I do not care about your claimed title nor will I say that it is a false title.  What causes people problems with your claim is that there is no evidence other than your certificate and no one new who you were until recently.

    If you can clean up your sentences and posts then people will treat you better.  Of this I have no doubt.

     It would also help if you could answer some people's questions when they are posted.  However, I do understand the challenges or dial up.

     Good luck but drop the tack of trying to discredit the Datu title in Modern Arnis.  Whether you, I or anyone else cares (of which I do not) it is there and will remain because Remy deemed it so.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## monkey (Jun 13, 2006)

I stated it befor -Ill state it again--I Dont Dispute the ranks Datus
I am telling the meaning of it.This translate to
the defintion!
Ive been trying to clean up the senteces a bit.Takes time  to learn this dial up-thing & try to respond.
Like I said I told the definition if you read it.I dont say they cant have it.I 
told were it comes from.I see you people come down on me.
But in the Datu threds-While others talk of such --who has the rite or not-
I am qualified in Kali--I know were Datu came from.Its a Kali term!
I am qualified in Modern Arnis & the question was  " What is a Datu?"
If people that answere this honestly & tell exactly what it is & it is confirmed.
Then maybe others should listen & insted of saying were do you come off---Or Dont put down the Datus. Listen to the answere,It is & has been trible.It was not part of Modern Arnis.Remy added it to make it special.
I see that it could be a good thing--It seems to be bad as how the thred What is a Datu? is  here!
But -here in lays What a Datu & whats it take.Now go to the Thred --
Master & see 90% that hold--Dont beleave that anyone ever should have it .Yet They have it.Now if they dont beleave in Master ---
I see why you think Im not Autheintic.1--I trained private with the founders. 2--I was certified by the founders ,so if you except Datus by the founders.
The by all means you have to except Master .It shouldnt matter if they came to you seminars or not.
Check the recoerds ---Remy has been in Chico & many times.
Ive been in the class photo 1980 with Remy & Ernesto as Brothers teaching together.I have shown my ranks-they have been recignised 
in a national mag & news letters.Hence I am Gaurdian & Master.
This title " To Me--To Me " It-  means I look out to see if it is being tought right.How can (any one learn -or progress or be excepted by your 
orinigised ways.)I shoulnd have to train under you to be excepted.
I was promoted as many were.Some have money & can promot threw mags-seminars ect.
Some are like me--quiet,not much money --this will not lessen our skills ever.
Just becouse we did pay funds or join yet.How can 1 be exspected to join & suport If they are told --They know nothing--thier ranks are not recignised.Ill say this again & look hard befor you answere.
My ranks have been posted in the Philippino mag Nationaly--They were Recignised with Mary Brunners group & noted in their news letters--
They were again noted on " whats a Datu thred by Dr. Jarome Barbar  for being in the mag & more.
There is also proof I am state rep that dose get shown On the web also on "whats  a Datu."So here on the Datu thred is yet "another national recignition for state Rep."
Ive been certified By Remy 1981--The rank was posted & many talk of it on the "Datu thred."Now they say you say" you havent see any proof."
Look it is nationaly posted & was noted as authentic on the Datu thred--
so very intencely &  generously it has been noted & reciginsed.Please- Stop 
trying to demean it.I dont put your ranks & training down-Honor that which "Remy "gave me in" 1981 "& Ernesto in 1987.The Ranks were up dated till 99.I studed other arts for awhile hence the Doce pares rank that show up  on my video & the signed photo from Cacoy at the seminar in Calif.
Lets stop this who is what & just learn from each other.
My Thred on Intercepting fist & Chi-- fong Ha --Choy  & other thred are getting good posts.I have seen a gold star on one of them.So what you said had no merit & stop it please --we can learn from each other .
Stop saying Im not qualified  or were do you get off--or stop putting down--I have not put down.Yet Ive been called a lier --1 has admited to stalking & harrasing from time to time. 
Lets just train---Read my threds & see I have a lot to  offer & we can share thought & skills from the Prffessor.
Please stop saying Im trying to promote my videos also.I dont sell tapes nor offer prices or other,Yet Ive seen  threds On Books & videos out by others.So you must adhear to your rules of the web as well.I dont 
want to sell my videos,I dont sell over or threw the web.They are mostly  semiars-& or those only & for those who were there,so they have a copy of what they did.
I will not sell my videos so please stop saying Im promoting them--Also
My seminars have been cliped on the video to show I do them.& yet here is another post-National befor I do them-For the past few years thay have been posted & my ranks  displayed in the arts.
Its not my responsablity that you have missed many-many many
year after year posts ntional of my ranks-seminars & anthing pertaining to.
once again if you except Datus --if you except masters --then you have to except my ranks..i have never seen or herd of your ranks being published as much as mine.I have National Reg. I am the state Rep.
Hence I am Authentic..So I ask again can we just drop all this now & just learn from each other.Many have enjoyed my Threds & they want more.Ive had  30 years in Modern Arnis-Can you say that?
Lets have fun.Like Remy said "Its a beautiful art-i want everybody to know--you know"


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 13, 2006)

Monkey,

This last post shows exactly why people have a problem with your posting style.  It is very tough to follow what you are saying because you jump around so much!  In order to be taken seriously you need to work on this.  Members such as Don Roley, Rich Parsons and people you have had a problem with are highly respected here and around the world.  Your arguing with them does not help your cause nor make you look better.  This thread about the Datu's might have been a good one for you to skip because when you questioned why non-filipino's could have the title then you immediately get other people upset.

I for one do not care about your title's, tape's, etc.  What I would like to see however is that you take time and post well rather than in the difficult manner that you have chosen.  I do not have a problem with you but *it is difficult reading your posts!  *

Be careful in lumping people together to quickly or you will have more people that will dislike your posts.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## monkey (Jun 13, 2006)

Thank you kindly for that info.I tried to do as you say & other.If you look at the last post --I did use the  
enter button just as such as to not group.
but is it seems only effective on short paragraphs.
I cant post 10 diferant  -the slow dial up will make it look as if I 
refuse to answer their question & by the time it dose show -
I get hit with 10 more questions & called a lier.
Its not just here on the datu  but the so called 
occult summoning of the great monkey thred ---&
who is tom carnes  thred;
seems I never had a fair shake or chance to try.From day 1
the "who is tom carnes" came up & 50 questions.
I tried to answer all-I have a disablity & slow dial up web.
This made me look stupid to them & I had the red put under my name.

Many---yes many cant under stnad why & I tell them  --they agree I 
never had a fair chance --as well  some purposely stalking (of which they stated such) to try do make fun of ---Hence the occult summing of the great monkey  with candles & occult type words.
Note that  person did state later it was done as a joke but, still others supoted it as a fact.
Now if I did these things to people Id be asked to leave the site & probly posted why asked.
Yet they get praised for the defermation-harrasing & making fun of a disabled army vet.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 13, 2006)

Tom,
  The problem is, most people here can't understand you.  Your writing style is very difficult to follow, which combined with the spelling errors, makes many simply ignore you. A man babbling incoherently on a street corner earns the odd look and avoidance. Many people here have suggested you install a spell checker. That alone will stop probably half the trouble you're having.

I'm sorry, but blaming dialup is a cop out. At least half our members are on dialup.  I'm sorry you are disabled, and it's nice to have veterans on the board, but your disability cannot be so severe since you are able to teach seminars and events.

You had a fair chance. Your name was mentioned out of curiosity as no one here had really heard of you.  Most of our members are from the 80's and 90's, very few from the 70's. Your claims, confusing posting style, as well as contradictions are what earned you a negative reputation. You still do have a fair chance.  Correct your spelling problems, space things out a bit, and take some time to reread things before you hit "post".  

Many of us are aware of the cultural and religious nature of Datu in the PI.  The question is, what does it mean in Modern Arnis?  As has been noted, Remy used a number of different titles.  He could have called it "Prince", or "Shogun", or "President", but he chose "Datu", from his homeland.  From my admittedly limited experience, the Modern Arnis Datus are welcome in the PI, and I believe at least 4 of the 6 have been there within the past few years. Most recently, both Kelly Worden and Dieter Knuttel, if memory serves me right. I heard no bad press about those visits, in fact I believe they came back with honors.  I also recall no comments attributed to Remy that MOTT, etc were superior to Datu. So, for me, it's a leadership position, within the art as a whole, the highest, second only to Grandmaster. That position, to me, is reserved for Remy himself.


----------



## monkey (Jun 13, 2006)

Mr Hubbard --My wife showed me how to spell check;
Thanks.I understnad what you are saying of Datus may to be understood to be.I have seen Datu rites.They become Like a Warlord or Shogun--
The title implies over Grandmaster.Hence spitiual leader.
I can except your thoughts on its meanings.
I only state some might see it for what it is.
Thats great Mr.Warden has been over there & excepted.But 
is it possable(just asking now) that they havent been were the
actual Datus are & recieved exceptance?
I wont stipulate that Grandmaster provided a rare title as He Was Kind & 
Loved the arts with all his being,
If we except it as being 2nd to Grandmaster--I ask it be published & 
deemed that this will be the rite & not disputed.This will stop the 
entry of the possable other arts that Embedded Datu to their art.
Proffessor was the Founder of His Art Juast as others.
Hence the founder has All Rights to Rank as See Fit Or Deamed.
This is the standard law & or rights to the Arts.

This is only a suggueston that may be alterd to your ways & or utilised for the Arts preservation & Historical rights.
I stand by Remys Dream & gols & suport 100% of what He has out lined & or deamed  the best for the arts.
I will note that Datus will mean as such-& I hope some kind of way with Datus has come to bring the What is a Datu to "Honor the Datus" 2nd in comand!


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 13, 2006)

PeteNerd said:
			
		

> So given these assertions I guess one could logically conclude that the Datus of modern arnis are the leaders of the different tribes of modern arnis. Then the question is, how many tribes of modern arnis are there?
> 
> Pete



Pete,

Thank you for responding. 

I like your question here.


So would the leader of a tribe not already given the title of Datu be a Datu if they are the leader(s)?


----------



## PeteNerd (Jun 14, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Pete,
> 
> Thank you for responding.
> 
> ...



It seems to me that the title of Datu in Modern Arnis is more of an honorific title, given to people that were seen as leaders.  Are all Datus leaders and are all leaders Datus?

Another question is what is the point of a title if people don't believe it is valid or respect it.  The titles in and of themself don't necessarily demand respect.  I've seen discussion about one member who claims a title as "Master and Guardian."  Whether his claim to this title is valid or not, doesn't really matter because pretty much no one believes him.

I'm just curious where you are really trying to go with this Rich.  You're fishing around for something.

Pete


----------



## kruzada (Jun 14, 2006)

It is a possibility that with so many high ranking Masters in Modern Arnis, GM Remy wanted to establish a way to differentiate those who had special qualities that stood out among the rest, without sparking jealousy between the Master ranks.

I believe that awarding the "Datu" title might have been his way of saying that you were not only an excellent instructor/practitioner of Modern Arnis, but also that you were an exceptional individual that even other practitioners of equal rank could look to for leadership and guidance.

We might never really know. IMHO someone should have asked these questions when GM Remy was around to guide us.

-Rich Acosta


----------



## monkey (Jun 14, 2006)

There is away to know---Remy also told me of notes on the art  
& maybe they could be looked at or  Remy jr to confirm exactly what the title was to imply for the status so "With out a doudt we as there ones who teach & collect History are 100% on what Respect-Honor-the entilements of the art to them & mre then that 
What is mean for historical & todays referance to mark in time;
Remy had inovated a place & so special it was granted to a 
small unique group of exceptionaly skilled & talented warriors.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 14, 2006)

PeteNerd said:
			
		

> It seems to me that the title of Datu in Modern Arnis is more of an honorific title, given to people that were seen as leaders. Are all Datus leaders and are all leaders Datus?
> 
> Another question is what is the point of a title if people don't believe it is valid or respect it. The titles in and of themself don't necessarily demand respect. I've seen discussion about one member who claims a title as "Master and Guardian." Whether his claim to this title is valid or not, doesn't really matter because pretty much no one believes him.
> 
> ...



Pete,

You are very intelligent and see that I have an idea.

I have no motive towards any Datu or Senior Master or Master of Tapi Tapi. 
As a practitioner of an art and a staff member here, I would like to disucss certain things, and drive conversation and also possibel straighten things out for less confusion.


----------

