# Mom needs help is this guy Legit.



## Beth Parker

My name is Beth and Im a single mother of 2 boys. I promised them martial arts lessons. I went to the martial arts school and the instructor tryed to sell me  a contract for a year of lessons [PAY WHETHER U COME OR NOT]  My problem is im ignorant concerning martial arts and as I read his bio online some red flags came up concerning him. The instuctor is very young and calls himself Soke,Professor, and 10nth dan of Kickboxing. I thought that was a sport and not a style also he is a member of several questionable organizations that this forum lists as sort of fradualent. I dont know enough about any of it to make a decisicion and i sure want my sons to learn a legitimate system if im gonna pay that much money. His url is http://www.usmartialartshalloffame.com/pages/profcale.html  I would really appreciate if any of u martial artist could look at this and give me some advice before i render a blind decision

Thanks so much

Beth Parker


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## Rich Parsons

Ms. Parker,

Thank you for posting here and welcome to our board!

Many of the things you have mentioned are red flags.

They are mainly Advertising and marketing tools. Yes, for some it is an ego thing, yet for others they have to have something to market. 

In my opinion, having one of these would be fine, now having all of them? This guy would have to be really good and be able to prove it.

So, I will recomend that you not only ask here, you also ask the parents of your childrens' friends. See if any of them know fo this guy. Also go to another school and check them out and see if you feel more comfortable there. Even if this guy is for real, and I am not saying he is, if you do not feel comfortable going there, then go somewhere you do feel good about. Go watch a kids class of this guy and also the competition, audition them, by watching them and seeing how they and the school instructors work with the kids.

The great thing about a free market is that you get to choose. The bad thing is that you sometimes do ot know the quality of the product you are buying 

I wish you much luck

:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard

The title of "Soke" is a big red flag.  Its been mentioned repeatedly here and elswhere that its use as a title if wrong, unless you are a-Japanese and b-involved in a Japanese art, amongst other things.

There is also a thread at E-Budo concerning the Korean Yudo 
& Hapkido Assn. which is fronted by a Mr. Stern.
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4650

A search on Mr. Stern will reveal -alot- of interesting information.

Personally, I'd steer clear of the guy....Too many high belts, and awards and titles for someone young...or even old, IMHO.

:asian:


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## Aegis

If he's young and calls himself a soke and a 10th dan in anything, I'd personally stay well clear, as the number of legitimate 10th dans around is miniscule compared to the number of fraudulant ones. The contract is another no-no for me. I always join clubs where I pay by the lesson, with a small extra charge for a year's insurance. 

As an aside, try asking this guy where he obtained his professorship, as it is illegal for anyone to use the title professor unless they have such a title from an accredited university. He could actually get in legal trouble for claiming otherwise. I only add this because I have seen very few professors under the age of 45-50, so if he's young and claiming a professorship, I'd inquire. 

Hope this was helpful in some way.


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *If he's young and calls himself a soke and a 10th dan in anything, I'd personally stay well clear, as the number of legitimate 10th dans around is miniscule compared to the number of fraudulant ones. The contract is another no-no for me. I always join clubs where I pay by the lesson, with a small extra charge for a year's insurance.
> 
> As an aside, try asking this guy where he obtained his professorship, as it is illegal for anyone to use the title professor unless they have such a title from an accredited university. He could actually get in legal trouble for claiming otherwise. I only add this because I have seen very few professors under the age of 45-50, so if he's young and claiming a professorship, I'd inquire.
> 
> Hope this was helpful in some way. *



The illegal proffessor title is a European or at least English and German issue. Here in the states it is not so, unfortuantly in some cases.


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## Beth Parker

Thank you so much for looking into this. It seems by your post it pays to shop around and do some research before spending money. Is kick boxing a sport or a style if it is a sport can u even be dan ranked in it.  I think I will continue to look for a different school because this person claims his P.H.D CAME THRU CONTINUING ED UNITS WHAT EVER THAT MEANS ONCE AGAIN IM SORRY FOR MY LACK OF KNOWKEDGE


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## Aegis

Apologies Rich, I thought the title professor was one you needed acreditation to use anywhere. My mistake.


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## Michael Billings

Here is his URL

*http://www.whitetigerkenpokarate.com/*

Not much info there however.

It looks like he is "founder" or "president" of both of the organizations International martial Arts Council of America (IMAC) and United States Martial Arts Hall of Fame, the two affiliate organizations listed on his home page.  (I just followed the links.)


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## pknox

This does sound kind of suspect.  According to the site, his PhD is in "Martial Science" -- if I remember correctly, I remember seeing ads in the back of Black Belt where you could send for a degree with that exact same name - I'm not saying he did that, but it seems suspicious.

Also, per his site:

"White Tiger Kenpo Karate is a complete street effective martial art founded by Professor Marty Cale in 1982."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the art of White Tiger Kenpo founded by John McSweeney, an early Parker BB?  

I guess it's possible that someone could come up with the same style name, but if he had studied Kenpo for any length of time, wouldn't he had heard of McSweeney?  It would be like if I said I founded Goju-Ryu, and when asked about Yamaguchi, said, "Oh, not THAT Goju - mine is different, but it comes from the same place."  Again, a bit suspicious.  

BTW, here's where I pulled my style info from:

http://kenpothoughts.com/saviano/default.asp


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by Beth Parker _
> *Thank you so much for looking into this. It seems by your post it pays to shop around and do some research before spending money. Is kick boxing a sport or a style if it is a sport can u even be dan ranked in it.  I think I will continue to look for a different school because this person claims his P.H.D CAME THRU CONTINUING ED UNITS WHAT EVER THAT MEANS ONCE AGAIN IM SORRY FOR MY LACK OF KNOWKEDGE *



Kickboxing is a sport; I have never heard of getting Dan ranked in it.

Unfortunatily, there are no set "standards" for credentials in the Martial Arts world, and there is no one out there regulating martial art credentials. It's not like the educational community (college, university), unfortunatily.

The mistake that people make is that they assume that there is some sort of regulated set standard, so they are inclined to believe whatever they are told. It pays to do your research, so good job seeking out this board and asking the right questions.

As to his credentials, they sound fabricated.

Have a nice day!


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## Ginsu

Mr. Billings also posted an interesting check list in this thread linked below. This should hopefully be of some help to you.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=9414

Best of luck.


_Ginsu_


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## arnisador

> Professor Marty E Cale, Soke, PH.D.



This is what people say to parody a self-promoted, self-important martial arts "master" (see the main page of E-Budo). To be honest, it reads like a joke. I would be _very_ wary.

I'm glad you asked! Good luck finding a good school for your kids.


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *Apologies Rich, I thought the title professor was one you needed acreditation to use anywhere. My mistake. *



Aegis,

No Apologies my friend.  If I came across as upset, I apologize back at you.

I jsut know it is different betweent he cultures. And it is the natural thing to assume that other first world countries would have the same logical rules for similar issues. Yet, this is the new world and Titles and all are not protected by law per se.

Good information though.


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## Disco

Sorry to be so informal. It may help if we knew what part of the country you are in. I'm sure there would be somebody within your area on the boards that could be of greater assistance. As for the person you are seeking information on, I would refrain from any dealings with him. First rule, never sign any long term contracts. A 3 month contract is acceptable in my opinion but nothing long term. Any school that you may be interested in, should offer some free lessons for evaluation. Another consideration would be the age of the boys and what you want for them in martial arts.

Hope this will be of some help. Everyone here is available for any assistance that we can render.

Respectfully
Disco:asian:


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## Michael Billings

> A GENERAL CHECK LIST BEFORE JOINING ANY NEW DOJO
> 
> Beware the hidden costs - Get full disclosure before you sign any contract! (Once the contract is signed, it's often too late.) I don't require contracts!
> 
> 
> 1. Is the instructor CPR and first aid certified?_______Yes __________No.
> 
> 2. Do you charge belt testing fees?______Yes _______No.
> 
> 3. Do you have a price list showing each test fee?_______Yes _______No
> 
> 4. Are students required to test at given intervals? _______Yes _______No
> 
> 5. On the average how often is a person tested?________
> 
> 6. Do you have written requirements for each belt/stripe test? _______Yes _________No
> 
> 7. What is the total charge for all belt/stripe fees - from White through 1st Black!
> 
> 8. What is the belt test fee for (just) Black Belt?
> 
> 9. Is sparring/freestyle required? ________Yes _______No If yes:
> 
> 10. Total cost of all required sparring/safety equipment?
> 
> 11. Must all equipment be bought through the studio? ________Yes_________No
> 
> 12. Is contact allowed in sparring? ________Yes _________No
> 
> 13. Is kicking to the head allowed? _________Yes _________No
> 
> 14. Is kicking to the head mandatory? _________Yes ________No
> 
> 15. Is kicking to the head in tournaments allowed _________? Required__________?
> 
> 16. Is breaking of boards required? ____Yes ____No - Required for testing?____Yes ___No
> 
> 17. Is the studio full time, professional _________? Part time___________?
> 
> 18. What are the hours _____________________?
> 
> 19. How long has the studio been open _____________?
> 
> 20. Must I sign a contract ________Yes ________ No If Yes:
> 
> 21. Can I get a copy to take to my attorney for review before I sign it? ____Yes ____No
> 
> 22. Contract: for how long _________?
> 
> 23. Contract: for how much ? Does the contract state what I am getting for this money? ____?
> 
> 24. Are payments made to a third party ? _________Yes ________No
> 
> 25. Are instructors "NATIONALLY CERTIFIED" thru a recognized organization?_____Yes ______ No
> 
> 26. Is the instruction Group only? __________ How many groups per week ________?
> 
> 27. Do I have to pay for extra groups ___________? How much _________?
> 
> 28. Does the basic course include:
> 
> 29. Private instruction/Personal Trainer? _______Yes ________ No
> 
> 30. If yes --- is it every week _______Yes ________ No _________?
> 
> 31. If no: Is private instruction available at an extra cost? ________Yes ________No
> 
> 32. If yes -- How much per hour? ____________
> 
> 33. Do you use Youth for Instructors? _________Yes ________No
> 
> 34. Do you award Black Belts to Youths? ______Yes ______No If yes: Starting at what age? _______
> 
> 35. What is the average time for a youth to get a Black Belt? _________
> 
> 36. Do you primarily teach;
> 
> 37. Self Defense ____________? % of total ____________ How many techniques per belt ______?
> 
> 38. Sport Karate/Tae Kwon Do___________? % of total
> 
> 39. Is the studio matted for rolling and falling ___Yes____No?
> 
> 40. Do you teach ground fighting/grappling____Yes _______No?
> 
> 41. JuiJitsu/style ___ ShootFighting ___ Other ____________?
> 
> 42. Am I required to go to tournaments? ___Yes___No --- If Yes -- How many ______?
> 
> 43. If I am sick or go on vacation do I still have to pay for lessons I did not or could not take ________?
> 
> 44. For youth - What about cancellations due to: Little league? ____ Soccer____?



and to give credit where credit is due:



> Orig posted by OFK
> 
> I think you found this on Pat Munk's Georgia Tracy Kenpo school site. It's a great list.
> 
> *http://www.georgiakenpo.net/info_pages/school_check_list.htm*
> 
> Another decent can be found on About.com's martial art's faq.
> 
> *http://martialarts.about.com/library/weekly/blfaq.htm*
> 
> __________________
> Old Fat Kenpoka



This should get you started.

Good luck, -MB


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## Cruentus

Nice list!


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *Sorry to be so informal. It may help if we knew what part of the country you are in. I'm sure there would be somebody within your area on the boards that could be of greater assistance. As for the person you are seeking information on, I would refrain from any dealings with him. First rule, never sign any long term contracts. A 3 month contract is acceptable in my opinion but nothing long term. Any school that you may be interested in, should offer some free lessons for evaluation. Another consideration would be the age of the boys and what you want for them in martial arts.
> 
> Hope this will be of some help. Everyone here is available for any assistance that we can render.
> 
> Respectfully
> Disco:asian: *


Your outdated feeling about how a school should be run and operated is no burden to lay on a layperson. Contract schools will outlast any mom and pop school. The number of students they retain will make the experience more positive all around for everyone. They will have better equipment, more instructors, and the security that the other fellow students aren't just bums off the street itching to hurt as many people as possible before they flake away.


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## arnisador

Please discuss contract schools in this thread.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Disco

Mabey you have had success in dealing with contract schools, but there are many who haven't. If you review, I said short term contracts were OK. Long term can have negitive impact to both parties. You are entitled to your viewpoint and opinion. Next time you disagree with someone, perhaps you could voice your position a little softer, without casting disparaging remarks. I will defer anything else to the new thread (Contract Schools). 
  :asian:


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *Mabey you have had success in dealing with contract schools, but there are many who haven't. If you review, I said short term contracts were OK. Long term can have negitive impact to both parties. You are entitled to your viewpoint and opinion. Next time you disagree with someone, perhaps you could voice your position a little softer, without casting disparaging remarks. I will defer anything else to the new thread (Contract Schools).
> :asian: *


What? .... my fingers whispered across the keys.


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## jfarnsworth

Man,

Good lord,
I would have thought you have to be about 150 yrs. old before you can achieve all of those kind of ranks. Maybe more should be done into looking at his lineages of each art to make sure they are legit.:asian:


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## Beth Parker

I have learned alot about shopping around before u sign a contract. Thanks to all u nice folks for the input. I also agree with Jason that maybe I should check the lineage and credentials out of the instructors before I decide. Thats important for me to know before hand but Im sure quite sure how to go about it since i have no prior knowlede of martial arts systems. I feedl it is important tho that they be in something that is authtentic. Thanks again for all the help.

Beth Parker


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## arnisador

Authenticity is good of course! Some newly formed arts may be authentic without being ancient. Feel free to post here for advice; for Japanese arts, E-Budo is a very good source of info. as well.

Depending on their ages, keeping them active and interested may suffice. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Almost no one I know got their black belt in the first art they studied. Do they need self-defense, or an activity in general? If they're having fun in a safe and healthy environment that means a lot. Is it important that it be a traditional art, a practical art, an athletic art, or...?


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## Galvatron

Beth, 
I believe he is claiming 10th dan in his system because he claims to be the founder of the system, therefore he has promoted himself to the highest rank in the style. It's not uncommon with fly-by-night "Sokes" and "Grandmasters". He has a long list of Dans in other arts, all it takes is knowing someone in another organization to get a dan through them. I have a 2nd dan in Tang Soo Do that i trained for and earned, however I cross train at a Taekwondo school on occasion, and have a certificate from that school stating that I'm also a 2nd dan in Taekwondo, although I've never tested there once. (Granted it was given to me incase I wanted to fight USTU tournaments)
See what I mean?? 
He could very well be legit, although I doubt it. Regardless, as they say "It's better to be safe than sorry".
Either way, this guy pops up enough red flags that I would avoid him like a plague.

Hope you find a good school for your kids


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## michaeledward

What struck me most outrageous on his website, is that we was awarded an 'Honorary PH. D. from numerous martial arts instructors . . . '

It was my understanding that Doctorate of Philosophy would be given (even if honorary) by an educational institution, not from your colleagues.

www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/dec/essay.phd.html 

I would suggest you discuss the contract. I have been studying at a 'contract school' for almost three years now. I have seen many students ask to be let out of their contracts, and the school does let them out. The one caveat is that it does take one month to process the paper work. During that time, the student is allowed to continue studying.

Good Luck to you .... Mike


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## Cthulhu

A legitimate instructor should have no problems about people asking for verification of his claimed instructors.

Everyone here has offered excellent advice.  I'm glad you decided to ask around before signing on the dotted line.  I can think of few better places than here to ask what you've asked.  Martial arts instruction is not an 'impulse buy'.

I hope you find something suitable for your children.

Cthulhu


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## Michael Billings

Kudos to you Beth for stepping outside the box, and researching something so well.  Go watch classes, see who teaches the kids (several classes), it may not be all bad, but you have to determine that on your own.  Contracts are not all bad, especially if he has been in business for a number of years.  But make sure you have  a contingency or "escape" clause for an out if your kids don't want to continue.

I know you may not have many schools around to chose from, but there is nothing wrong with shopping around.  Visit as many as you have time for to compare and contrast.  You may have excellent instructors who do not run the school, but were child therapist (me!!) and teaching wonderfully.  You may have the manager or owner teaching, who can do ... but just is not a good teacher.  Trust your instincts, go back more than once.  Then go for it.  Often churches, parks & rec departments of larger cities, or YMCA / Boys Clubs offer good Kiddo programs.

Just more to confuse you.  

Good Luck,
Peace,
-MB:asian:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Often churches, parks & rec departments of larger cities, or YMCA / Boys Clubs offer good Kiddo programs.*



Yes.

At a local martial arts supply store you may find ads for people teaching out of their homes. I studied like that in high school, and at a community center in college.


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## Nightingale

School Name: Tracy's Kenpo Karate 
Address: 828 Chestnut St. 
Conway, AR 72032 
Phone: 501-327-2311 
Head Instructor / Rank: Herb Baker 
Style: Tracy's Kenpo 
Associations: Tracy's Karate 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

School Name: Lee's Karate Academy 
Address: 54 CR 402
Jonesboro, AR 72401 
Phone: 870-761-0861 
Head Instructor / Rank: Logan Lee 
Style: American Freestyle Kenpo Karate 
Email Address: Mr. Lee 
Associations: Lee's Karate Academy


here's a few more schools in AR that you may want to check out if you're nearby.


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## Abbax8

I and sevral people I know have been offered to be inducted into the Martial Arts Hall of Fame. I have received at least 6 offers, last year I got two at one time. All I needed was to pay the fee.In my opinion, I would go elsewhere. If you are willing to tell us the city where you live, there may be someone who can suggest a good instructor. Also take your question to E-Budo and Budoseek. Both are fine websites.

                                                             Peace
                                                              Dennis


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Abbax8 _
> *Also take your question to E-Budo and Budoseek. Both are fine websites.*



Absolutely. E-Budo is the key resource for Japanese arts, and BudoSeek covers a wide variety of arts.


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## MA-Caver

A friend and I were talking about your post and we are happy to see that you are one smart momma! Your boys' interest and SAFETY are priority and you had gotten some good feed back from the others here. 
My friend who is a MA mother of two boys taking Kenpo had this to offer. Find out if there are other children in the class of the same age(s) and ask the parents of those children how their kids like it and what values have the kids brought home. Likewise if any of the kids go to the same school(s) as your boys so that they may find a mutual friend. 
From my own stand point is making sure the instructor stresses that what the boys learn is not for fun or use except in dire need, i.e. a serious bully attacking them or worse.  Some kids may get too cocky with what new and cool forms they learn. 
Good luck in finding a great school and hopefully they'll stick with it.


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## TonyM.

Beth. Try asking amongst your friends to find someone with some quality martial training that would be willing to help you investigate some schools. It will be important for someone with some knowledge to check out the curiculum to ensure the kids are getting safe usefull quality training. Go with your gut instinct on the instructor. Do you like them as a person and do you trust them?
In my area we had a questionable TKD instructor that turned out to be a rapist. Personally I knew something was wrong about him the moment I met him.
In regards to the website you inquired about: (I hope this is a legitimate thing to say here.) Probably that guy has no legitimate credentials at all. I would be surprised if he has any ranking in any art. From the website I get the impression of a small time streetfighter of questionable integrity and training.


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## arnisador

Yes, if you can take a knowledgeable martial artist with you that'd be great!


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## pknox

Your mileage may vary, but calling the Better Business Bureau in your area may prove helpful as well, as they should have a record of any complaints filed against a potential instructor you may be looking at.  Be careful to examine the info carefully, though, as some may just be disgruntled students or other people with an "axe to grind."  If there are a large number of complaints, however, I for one would be wary.

Also, if the instructor claims membership in any particular organizations, don't hesitate to contact the organizations in question to verify it.  It is surprising how many people with fraudulent credentials are caught this way -- evidently they figure you wouldn't think to do your research.  If the instructor is not forthcoming with info on how to contact the organization, that should be a red flag as well.


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## jdmills

Beth:

My feeling is that there are too many questions regarding this person's legitimacy to send your children there.  My advice would be to find another school.

Jim


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## hardheadjarhead

He's the director of the very "Hall of Fame" that he's featured in?

Even if the guy's certifications were legitimate, which people here correctly question, would anybody want to study under a guy THAT VAIN?



SCS


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## freddrinkwine

Hey Mom, good call seeing the red flags. I'm gonna make this quick for you. Most of the emails responding to your call are too long  and confusing.

I have run a large martial arts school for a number of years.

Most schools have numerous scam / scheme atmsopheres.

As far as the guy's claimed credentials - pretty much all crap.

Such credentials aren't even that important - many people with great "credentials" don't know anything. 

You should base it on how the person seems to you. What does the person feel like? Honest? a Liar? 

Contracts: Most successful schools use contracts - they are neede to manage the cash-flow. However- a one year startup contract is A SCAM!!! WHY WOULD YOU AGREE TO PAY FOR 1YR OF CLASSES BEFORE YOU EVEN HAVE A REAL OPINION OF THE PLACE.   three or six months is fair to start with. 

But you know what - you have already seen some big red flags.

Find out if there are testing fees.  If so, WHAT ARE THEY? If you don't get an honest answer right away - LEAVE!

More important than any credentials is the overall character and ability to teach meaningful things on the part of the instructor.

any other questions, email me at freddrinkwine@yahoo.com


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## WildCater

I know Marty Cale, and he aint no 10th degree in Kenpo or any thing else. At least he is probabaly a 5th Dan or less. I beleve that he calls himself a 10th Dan is because he founded the art, of White Tiger Kenpo. Wich brings me to another point. This guy wouldnt teach his students an art he pulled out of the air. Because he wouldnt know how eficient the art is. think about it. The highst rank in Tae Kwon Do is probabaley a 9th Dan. well Ive seen him before, and hes getting ready to pass away it looks like. That is onley in Tae Kwon Do. Now how can he hold a 10nth Dan in 2 arts, a 1st Dan in Tae Kwon Do, A cane Master, ect..., It is deffenatley not possible. Thats just probabley he classifeyed himself as."Key Word- Himself." hes obiousley insane, or mental. For giving himself these ranks. ITS INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!


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## theletch1

WildCater,  would you like to take a moment to clarify the info on Marty Cale?  What is his true rank/style?  Have you trained with him? Etc, etc.  Any input is appreciated if substantiated (how 'bout that?  I sound like Johnny Cochran).


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## Han-Mi

I wanted to add a few of things on finding a good instructor, just in case Beth is still reading this post. 

1. Kick-boxing is probably not for your children, you should probably go for something a little more child friendly.

2. Most of the big associations are legitimate, but can get political if your children stay with them long enough. Pick something that they will be happy with in the long run. And usually it is a good idea not go train under someone who created their own art and ranked themself in it.

3. Most good instructors can get you in touch with their instructors, and would have no problem doing so if you were truly concerned about what they claimed. If they don't know much about their instructor or at least the philosophy they taught, be warry. Most of use can remember our 1st grade teacher, we should be able to tell you about the instructor that taught us for 5-15 years. I could personally get you in contact with my instructor and his instructor.

Good luck


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## WildCater

Im not dissing Marty Cale, He is a 1st dan in tae kwon do, and i think a 5th dan in judo, or jujutsu, hes a very good teacher, and hosts some awsome tournaments. He has an award winning demo team. But the reason he calls himself a 10th dan, is because he is the creator of white tiger kenpo, and im going to agree with him, he might be, because there are Litterally no more techniques he can accomplish, because he has already learned them. Should he declaire himself a 10th dan? no, should he declaire himself the creator? yes, is he a good martial arts teacher? in my opinion yes, do I think he should teach the martial art he made? no, because there is no proof that it actually works, but all this I beleve he calls himself 10th dan.


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## tcma66

Just wanted to let you know that i also know Marty, he is great instructor and a good person.  You can approach him and talk to him about your feelings and what you have seen and heard.  He will not have a probelm with you bringing in your boys to try out the class a couple of times.  He will also not have a problem with you watching the class as many times as you want.  If you have any questions please email me directly.


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## KenpoTess

* MOD NOTE

The Initial poster has had her account closed..
I am closing this thread as it is Dead.

Thank you,

~Tess
-MT S. MOD-

*


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