# Reality / Pressure testing



## Domino (Feb 2, 2012)

Wanted to reach out for info on pressure testing our arts, what can I do to better myself?

I struggle in real time to apply certain techniques so stay with our staple

I am aware the problems lie in my own journey / more realistic training and still need to learn, what techniques or help can you offer in terms of drills or advice.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2012)

Nothing against Wing Chun, I am rather impressed by it actually

Spar with styles other than Wing Chun... basically check what you know against what others know... and that goes for any style


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 2, 2012)

Good advise above from Xue!


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## geezer (Feb 2, 2012)

Am I the only one old enough to remember the saying, "Reality is only for people who can't get drugs?" 

Sure "pressure testing" can be helpful... but a lot of the people who talk about "reality" and "the streets" choose _a very particular reality _and apply it very broadly ...if you know what I mean. Just another random observation from the Geezer.


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## Jake104 (Feb 2, 2012)

Domino said:


> Wanted to reach out for info on pressure testing our arts, what can I do to better myself?
> 
> I struggle in real time to apply certain techniques so stay with our staple
> 
> I am aware the problems lie in my own journey / more realistic training and still need to learn, what techniques or help can you offer in terms of drills or advice.



Probably some of the best advise I ever got was from my Sifu when I first started training. . He said " against a good striker you will NOT be able to block everything, you are going to get hit."

 You may block the first couple but eventually if the opponent goes un checked, meaning you don't return fire right away, you will be hit and may be overtaken by strikes. This is not to say just go chain punch crazy. I personally do not chain punch . At least not in the classical/ mainstream sense. I mix up the levels high middle low.

You will find even the fastest strikers will slow down a bit when your punches are landing and he feels some pain. Pain demoralizes and makes people second guess themselves. You will be amazed at how well your techniques will work when this happens.

Another thing to consider is being hit is just as important. Because if you are not used to getting hit. You may be the one who gets demoralized and second guesses himself.

Of coarse there are other factors like timing and range. But that will come with time. But the correct mindset/ mentality IMO is much more important. Good luck!


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## mook jong man (Feb 2, 2012)

Depends what you consider "Pressure" doesn't it mate.

One man's concept of extreme pressure maybe just a "Walk in the park cuddling fluffy puppies to another man.
It's all relative isn't it.

I'm not going to get into the whole going around sparring people of different systems thing , there is certainly merit in that , but most people have trouble enough making time to attend their own school let alone making time time to go to other peoples schools or spar outside of class time.

Most attacks whether they be hand / leg can be categorised as either circular (they will come around either side of your guard ) ie hook punch ,haymaker etc.
Or direct ( straight down your guard) ie jab , Wing Chun centreline punch.
They can also come in high or low ( above your guard or underneath it ).
There is also some overlap in this , a linear strike can also be aimed just off the centreline so it is on the outside of your guard aimed at your cheek bone or eye.
But without complicating it too much , they are basically circular or straight , high or low.

This is where we start to get into the territory of what we call in our lineage "Random Arms" and "Random Legs"
Eventually striving to be able to stop any random attack.

I assume Domino that you have "Four Corner Deflection in your lineage " that should be your first port of call.
Work on stopping circular punches to the head and gut like hooks and uppercuts.

Here are few things I wrote a while ago , they are drills and exercises to develop reflex.
They maybe of some use to you.
Fair bit of reading there mate  , but you might find something in there you can use.


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?67018-Four-Corner-Deflection&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?90528-Chi-Sau-vs-The-Flurry&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?89648-Reflecting-The-Elbow&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?68775-Reflex-exercise&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?79279-Bong-to-Tan-vs-High-Low-Strike&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...i-pad-to-test-structure-and-stance&highlight=


The important thing to remember is that you start with these drills and ramp up the intensity , they are a stepping stone so that you have the attributes to handle random attack.

But at the end of the day they are only exercises and at some point you must accept that training at close range and realistic speed you will be hit .

It is imperative that you include the random stuff in your training , because this is where you learn to improvise on the "Fly" so to speak.
Such as you think he's going to throw (A) but he throws (B) so in turn you have to convert your original defence to something else in order to not be hit.

The defensive patterned sequences are great for developing a variety of things , but some things can only be developed by going "Random" with the threat of being hit .

Also it's worth remembering that whilst padding up with head gear , mouth guards , gloves  , doing rbsd scenarios etc can certainly up the adrenaline level , it is not exactly the same as that horrible feeling of fear and dread that seems to hit you in the pit of the stomach when you've got two big blokes standing in front of you intending to do you harm and you realise you may have to do it for real , they certainly help.

But that feeling is really something you can only deal with the best you can.


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 3, 2012)

One thing I have found incredibly valuable, is putting 14oz gloves on and 'going at it' with other like minded guys. There is nothing more informative and real than having another human being wanting to knock you out. Of course, Im not encouraging people to go out and get themselves hurt, but until you have experienced that kind of thing, you will always fear a punch. Over time I found that I didnt fear strikes as much as before. Its hard to do this using chun techniques, but again, as time goes on, you can learn to utilize your wing chun effectively against such pressure coming in


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## mook jong man (Feb 3, 2012)

Also one thing I found is with the headgear on you tend to get hit a lot more than when you have no headgear on , it seems to mess up your peripheral vision.
So what I do is take off the plastic cage bit off the front and just have the padding around the cheek bones and head.
You still get hit but at least you can see what the hell it was that hit you and work to rectify it.
Make sure you still wear a mouthguard though.

Another thing worth doing is both putting the headgear on and with no gloves you do a bit of chi sau with trapping and hitting to the head , that will help locate any holes in your defense of your head area.


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 3, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> Also one thing I found is with the headgear on you tend to get hit a lot more than when you have no headgear on , it seems to mess up your peripheral vision.
> So what I do is take off the plastic cage bit off the front and just have the padding around the cheek bones and head.
> You still get hit but at least you can see what the hell it was that hit you and work to rectify it.
> Make sure you still wear a mouthguard though.
> ...



Well if we are talking realism, your peripheral vision can often go away in a confrontation...

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk


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## mook jong man (Feb 3, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Well if we are talking realism, your peripheral vision can often go away in a confrontation...
> 
> Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk



Yes under the effects of adrenaline you do get tunnel vision ,  but at the close range that we train at we need all the vision we can get and those little bars at the front of the headgear impair vision and reflex to the point where you don't pick up low kicks to the shins, fast punches to the gut or head.

They might work for longer range systems where you have a larger field of vision , but at our range not too well , I prefer to take it off , and if one sneaks through so be it , but at least I know what it was that hit me.


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## yak sao (Feb 3, 2012)

I have a couple of the Pro Force head gear w/ face cage, and you're right...the lower bars are right in your field of vision vs low kicks and punches.
What I did to fix this is simply cut them off and wrap the exposed ends in electrical tape. This way I still have a majority of the face protected, plus now I can see the low shots.
The structural integrity might be an issue, but I'm not going against Mike Tyson, so it works.


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## mook jong man (Feb 4, 2012)

yak sao said:


> I have a couple of the Pro Force head gear w/ face cage, and you're right...the lower bars are right in your field of vision vs low kicks and punches.
> What I did to fix this is simply cut them off and wrap the exposed ends in electrical tape. This way I still have a majority of the face protected, plus now I can see the low shots.
> The structural integrity might be an issue, but I'm not going against Mike Tyson, so it works.



That's a bloody good idea mate I will have to try that .
Mine have got two main horizontal bars covering the upper face and two smaller vertical bars down near the mouth, so you cut the bottom ones off , have I got it right.
You can tell the person who designed it never did Wing Chun that's for sure.


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## K-man (Feb 4, 2012)

Sounds like we all do similar things.  Our pressure testing is at the same close range and we probably do have slightly obstructed vision with the full face protectors. I'm not as concerned about the kicks as we are mainly inside kicking distance.  It's the knee to the groin that can bring a tear to the eye, even with a cup, and sometimes I think you could be better off without one. We don't use gloves as you can't use the hands as effectively, although on occasion we will use mits.

The most important thing from my point of view, is actually being hit.  So many people I know train 'no contact' and if they accidentally get hit they instinctively stop.  I don't try to hit hard to the head for reasons we have discussed elsewhere, but I have no aversion to giving and receiving a few to the torso.  After a while you don't notice if someone gives you a wack.  

Another form of pressure testing we often do is to have about six guys in a circle and one in the middle.  They are all allowed to attack at will and with reasonable force. Because it can get out of hand easily, I make it that the guy in the middle can defend but not strike back.  It can induce a fair bit of stress at times, and it certainly hones the defensive skills and develops the ability to remain relaxed under pressure.


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## yak sao (Feb 4, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> That's a bloody good idea mate I will have to try that .
> Mine have got two main horizontal bars covering the upper face and two smaller vertical bars down near the mouth, so *you cut the bottom ones off , have I got it right*.
> You can tell the person who designed it never did Wing Chun that's for sure.



Right. And with gloves of some type on, there is still a small enough space to keep the hands out.


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## yak sao (Feb 4, 2012)

We are predominantly hands as well. But when we practice lat sau, we have one person play the part of the non WC guy, and until you close the gap and get in to where you want to be, it is very helpful to see attacks to the lower gate.


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## mook jong man (Feb 4, 2012)

K-man said:


> Sounds like we all do similar things.  Our pressure testing is at the same close range and we probably do have slightly obstructed vision with the full face protectors. I'm not as concerned about the kicks as we are mainly inside kicking distance.  It's the knee to the groin that can bring a tear to the eye, even with a cup, and sometimes I think you could be better off without one. We don't use gloves as you can't use the hands as effectively, although on occasion we will use mits.
> 
> The most important thing from my point of view, is actually being hit.  So many people I know train 'no contact' and if they accidentally get hit they instinctively stop.  I don't try to hit hard to the head for reasons we have discussed elsewhere, but I have no aversion to giving and receiving a few to the torso.  After a while you don't notice if someone gives you a wack.
> 
> _*Another form of pressure testing we often do is to have about six guys in a circle and one in the middle.  They are all allowed to attack at will and with reasonable force. Because it can get out of hand easily, I make it that the guy in the middle can defend but not strike back.  It can induce a fair bit of stress at times, and it certainly hones the defensive skills and develops the ability to remain relaxed under pressure.*_




I have done similar exercises to that before , one we used to call "The Tunnel of Death" where the whole class forms two lines and one person walks down the centre and gets attacked at random by anyone in the line.

The other good one I've done before was called " The Cauldron" at a Krav seminar and it was very much like the circle drill you described.
You are in the centre of a large circle of people and multiple people are nominated to enter the circle and attack you
But as you move around to position yourself to keep them lined up , if you get too close to the edge of the circle, the people that are forming the ring will keep shoving you back into the centre.
It just adds another level of pressure to an already chaotic situation.


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## profesormental (Feb 6, 2012)

Greetings.

Well, the answer depends on what pressure testing means and for what.

Pressure testing for sporting purposes is different than testing for self defense skills. Drilling certain techniques and then using scenarios based on common attacks to simulate self defense situations and analyzing the results can be useful.

We do both at our school, and we have drills that have proven very effective at preparing our students for actual fights and encounters with a very high degree of success and execution.

If interested in our drills it would be better to focus on specific scenarios to narrow the discussion.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado


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## WingChunIan (Feb 6, 2012)

There are a number of ways to pressure test and their suitability depends upon the needs / aims of the individual student. I use padding up and going for it against realistic attacks and resisting opponents, taking the exercises outside of the training hall, introducing the element of surprise, getting the student to perform in front of the whole class as the centre of attention (with or without the other elements) and fatigue drills (physical and mental) as ways of pressure testing. Different methods work better with different individuals, the main thing for me is to induce an adrenal response and present a realistic target / threat.


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## hunt1 (Feb 6, 2012)

Pressure testing against strangers is Huge! I do not think it is even possible for anyone to truly understand the depth of wing chun or how to use their wing chun unless they test in sparring against strangers. Yip Man was a big believer in this and told his students the only way to know if he is lying to them is if they go out and fight with wing chun.   Not everyone wants or needs to go this route but if you have it in you do it. No one can teach you how to fight if they haven't done this. You can not teach someone to do something if you have never done it yourself.   I may have gone a bit overboard but it paid huge dividends. I ran ad's in every major newspaper in Chicago looking for sparring partners. I went into every boxing gym and martial arts school posting on the  boards or asking the teachers if any of their students were interested.   One of the keys to wing chun is to relax. you will never be able to relax until you can get over the fear that comes when violence is about to erupt. Also the calmness will make it much easier for you to talk/walk out of situations that others would come to blows over.   You will get hit. every one gets hit in a fight. You have to learn to deal with it.   You need strangers. Playing with your school mates are fine as a starting point  but that's all it is.  First thing you will learn is their are no blocks in wing chun.   Second focus on footwork.   If you do it correctly and look for people that have been doing their art about the same time you have been doing wing chun you will have fun.   Make sure it is friendly. Stop when things seem to be getting out of hand. When you get hit ask the person what they just did and could they doi it slower so you can see what it is and look for the wing chun answer to it. Do the same for them.   Emphasize you both are their to learn not kill each other. It's not a death match. However if you do what I did you will get some that want to make it a death match. That's the scary time. if you remember it's not about winning but learning how to use your wing chun you will learn an incredible amount.


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## WingChunIan (Feb 6, 2012)

Yip man wasn't a believer in sparring - he encouraged his students to fight,  there is a big big difference between fighting and sparring and fighting is illegal in most societies today. 
If you go into MMA, MT or boxing gyms around here you will never get started if you stop every time "things get out of hand" and I disagree massively that you can't teach someone to fight if you've never gone out looking for fights. Firstly there are plenty of other ways to get far more real experience even if unintentional and secondly some of the best boxing coaches in the world were not fighters themselves
I don't disagree that sparring with other disciplines can be useful but unless you want to enter competition its not the be all and end all. If you want to experience real fighting a door job is far more useful.


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## Jake104 (Feb 6, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> Yip man wasn't a believer in sparring - he encouraged his students to fight,  there is a big big difference between fighting and sparring and fighting is illegal in most societies today.
> If you go into MMA, MT or boxing gyms around here you will never get started if you stop every time "things get out of hand" and I disagree massively that you can't teach someone to fight if you've never gone out looking for fights. *Firstly there are plenty of other ways to get far more real experience even if unintentional and secondly some of the best boxing coaches in the world were not fighters themselves*
> I don't disagree that sparring with other disciplines can be useful but unless you want to enter competition its not the be all and end all. If you want to experience real fighting a door job is far more useful.


 
What other ways of getting real experience aside from sparring or fighting are you speaking of? Yes boxing coaches may not all be fighters or fight themselves. But they do produce people who fight, and sparring/ fighting with pressure is the main part of there training. In Wing Chun you could argue that instead of producing fighters we produce only other coaches/Sifu's and the fighting part is lost...


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## hunt1 (Feb 6, 2012)

Wow Ian. You  must be one of those that believes Wing Chun gives magical powers.


All activities require the actual doing of that activity to learn it. You can spend every day taking golf instruction and hitting the range, unless you go and actually play you will never learn  the game.  You can spend all day every day speaking in front of a mirror but until you stand up in front of groups and speak you will never be a good public speaker. There are no exceptions and there is no substitute for experience in anything.

 There is far more to wing chun than forms chi sau and partner drills.  To learn to fight you have to fight period.Fighting does not mean life or death kill the other guy. it can be that but you don't learn from that.

 Every boxing coach I have ever met has actually boxed. Never heard of a coach anywhere that just learned from a teacher and never got into the ring themselves. You don't have to be a great fighter but you must of the experience .

 What you can do against a trained fighter you can do against a drunk in a bar. Just because you can deal with a drunk in a crowded bar with a couple of other blokes at your back does not mean you will have any ability to handle a trained fighter.

 The only difference between fighting and real sparring is intent. Since the point is to learn how to use the skills you have been taught trying to kill each other is counter productive. As your skill level rises your intent can and should rise as long as you are facing someone of similar  skill and desire.

As far as what is legal getting into a ring at a MMA school with a willing opponent is legal everywhere. Far different than sucker punching and assaulting some one on the street. I did not advocate attacking strangers on the street. Finding willing training partners that want to hone their skills is what one should be doing.

 As far as Yip Man. His students tried their skills against trained resisting opponents from other arts in a competitive ,for that time and place ,format. The same thing that I advocate. Today the standards are far higher and those that rely on dreaming that because their teachers teacher supposedly won some fights does not mean that you will have any skill at all.  The fact that some were bullies and jerks and instigated street fights does not mean all did that or that that was or is the best way to learn how to fight.


 The world is full of MMA schools where the students train daily to take down and roll at almost full intensity. They get into a ring with protective gear and actually hit each other. They actually practice and train the same skills the will use in a fight. 

 Most wing chun people chi sau ,do some partner drills  ,play with the dummy and hit some bags have a partner with no boxing skills throw some round punches etc have someone with no take down skills try to take them down ,have themselves a few minutes of wing vs wing chun centerline charging with chain punches  and think they have real skills. 


Under today's standards until you step into a ring with some MMA students and can hold your own with wing chun you don't have much. Only way to learn that is to do that.  Playing with classmates and tossing drunks and bully boys is not a substitute.


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## mook jong man (Feb 6, 2012)

hunt1 said:


> Wow Ian. You  must be one of those that believes Wing Chun gives magical powers.
> 
> 
> All activities require the actual doing of that activity to learn it. You can spend every day taking golf instruction and hitting the range, unless you go and actually play you will never learn  the game.  You can spend all day every day speaking in front of a mirror but until you stand up in front of groups and speak you will never be a good public speaker. There are no exceptions and there is no substitute for experience in anything.
> ...



Even if you do all that it's still quite limited and artificial isn't it.

Your still only practicing against someone on probably soft mats in perfect lighting conditions , you know he's not going to pull a knife out halfway through the sparring match or his girlfriend's going to come over and hit you over the head with a bottle.

You probably won't be wearing shoes either , so there goes the effectiveness of your low heel kick to the shin out the window , one of the best attacks to use before engaging with the hands or to keep someone out of punching range.

It's very good training to be sure , but still about as one dimensional as training Wing Chun vs Wing Chun attacks , it is the same as all other training it has limitations.

I think that scenario type training is a better way to bridge the gap to address the needs of the Wing Chun practitioner in preparing for street assaults.

As for the issue of having someone teach you that has been in a lot of fights , that is all well and good.
But more often than not the qualities that caused them to get into a lot of fights are also the ones that can make them not too nice a person or even a good teacher.

They can have a lot of ego and really can't be bothered helping the lowly plebs out too much in refining their techniques , or really aren't that good at explaining how the technique works.

At the other extreme you get the walking Funk and Wagnalls who can tell you the ins and outs of every technique but can't themselves apply it , but they can explain it to you really well.

I have experienced both types , and the ones that were the best had a blending of the "Pitbull" in them but also an equal amount of the "Engineer".

At the end of the day no matter what type you are taught by it is up to you to summon your aggression and apply your techniques the best you can.
As one of my old instructors used to say "You have to have a bit of the mongrel in you".
I am not so sure that mongrel dog mentality can be instilled into every student , it can be developed to a certain degree , but most of it will come from life experiences , background etc.


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## Domino (Feb 7, 2012)

Wow thanks for the response everyone, I do get hit hard and often which I promote just recently.
I like alot of what has been said regarding my perception of 'realistic' fighting, skimmed through and will go through at dinner time so don't get my wrists whipped by my boss !


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## WingChunIan (Feb 7, 2012)

hunt1 said:


> .





> Wow Ian. You  must be one of those that believes Wing Chun gives magical powers.


 nope, I just live in the real world and don't think that having a nice pre arranged game of bouncing around with a guy who attacks in expected ways, with gloves on in a nice clean soft area under the watchful eyes of plenty of others, where I can stop if "it gets out of hand" gives you magical powers either.



> All activities require the actual doing of that activity to learn it. You can spend every day taking golf instruction and hitting the range, unless you go and actually play you will never learn  the game.  You can spend all day every day speaking in front of a mirror but until you stand up in front of groups and speak you will never be a good public speaker. There are no exceptions and there is no substitute for experience in anything.


 I agree to a point but then your aim must be to spar and for me my Wing Chun is not about that


> There is far more to wing chun than forms chi sau and partner drills.  To learn to fight you have to fight period.Fighting does not mean life or death kill the other guy. it can be that but you don't learn from that.


 you should learn from every experience its just that some learning experiences are more painful than others



> What you can do against a trained fighter you can do against a drunk in a bar. Just because you can deal with a drunk in a crowded bar with a couple of other blokes at your back does not mean you will have any ability to handle a trained fighter.


 sorry but you are just plain wrong, full stop. I know of countless trained fighters who do very well in competition but have had their **** handed to them in the street by guys who've never trained a day in their life. The world is full of hard ba**ards and fighters who won't attack you in the same way as a classically trained fighter. 


> The only difference between fighting and real sparring is intent.


You seem to have completely over looked the adrenal dump and pre fight rituals that you simply don't get in sparring, as well as the difference in range and go signals, the presence of obstacles, uneven ground, third parties etc etc


> Since the point is to learn how to use the skills you have been taught trying to kill each other is counter productive. As your skill level rises your intent can and should rise as long as you are facing someone of similar  skill and desire.


 and this is where you seem to have misunderstood what Ip Man enouraged, he promoted his students training hard with each other, developing their skills and then testing them against opponents in real fights not in games of tag. The culture of the time in HK and the presence of the Kowloon walled city provided ample opportunity to do so. Today in most parts of the world the law frowns upon such activities. Whilst I agree that sparring can be useful trying to pass it off as a modern equivalent to roof top challenge matches is silly.



> As far as what is legal getting into a ring at a MMA school with a willing opponent is legal everywhere. Far different than sucker punching and assaulting some one on the street. I did not advocate attacking strangers on the street. Finding willing training partners that want to hone their skills is what one should be doing.
> 
> As far as Yip Man. His students tried their skills against trained resisting opponents from other arts in a competitive ,for that time and place ,format. The same thing that I advocate. Today the standards are far higher and those that rely on dreaming that because their teachers teacher supposedly won some fights does not mean that you will have any skill at all.  The fact that some were bullies and jerks and instigated street fights does not mean all did that or that that was or is the best way to learn how to fight.


 see my previous comment


> The world is full of MMA schools where the students train daily to take down and roll at almost full intensity. They get into a ring with protective gear and actually hit each other. They actually practice and train the same skills the will use in a fight.


 and its a great way to train that produces some terrific atheletes and superb one on one fighters, but their goal is not the same as mine, I stopped training for sport when I gave up MT



> Most wing chun people chi sau ,do some partner drills  ,play with the dummy and hit some bags have a partner with no boxing skills throw some round punches etc have someone with no take down skills try to take them down ,have themselves a few minutes of wing vs wing chun centerline charging with chain punches  and think they have real skills.


 I presume that your Wing chun class has no-one in it with previous experience of martial arts then, mine has several folks who are well versed in grappling arts and stand up disciplines. I don't disagree with the usefullness of having skilled training partners but finding them with a useful attitude is the trick and it is only part of the puzzle.


> Under today's standards until you step into a ring with some MMA students and can hold your own with wing chun you don't have much. Only way to learn that is to do that.  Playing with classmates and tossing drunks and bully boys is not a substitute


We are clearly training for different reasons, if your aim is to compete in MMA then you are 100% correct but that is not what the majority of wing chun practitioners are training for. Oh and those drunks and bully boys are far more dangerous than a nicely compliant partner wearing gloves (plus whatever else you wear) and not carrying a weapon or bringing along mates who doesn't have the pain numbing benefits of alcohol and white powder to draw on, and who will only hit you to the front and nowhere that is likely to cause you real damage.


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## WingChunIan (Feb 7, 2012)

Jake104 said:


> What other ways of getting real experience aside from sparring or fighting are you speaking of? Yes boxing coaches may not all be fighters or fight themselves. But they do produce people who fight, and sparring/ fighting with pressure is the main part of there training. In Wing Chun you could argue that instead of producing fighters we produce only other coaches/Sifu's and the fighting part is lost...


Completely agree Jake, thankfully I have several students who do door work and other even less savoury jobs who test what is taught on a regular basis (I also have my own experiences to draw on). Note in my post I didn't say not fighting, I have experience and have never looked for a fight in my life, my own sifu was a proffessional bodyguard but has never had an MMA fight in his life to my knowledge. I just don't believe that sparring is the be all and end all. Get a door job or pressure test what you've been taught by padding up and taking away the rules with multiple assailants in a back alley they both work well. I enjoy sparring with other disciplines and it can be a very, very valuable part of training but it's not the only answer and its not a holy grail that simulates real fighting.


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## Domino (Feb 7, 2012)

MJM summed the situation up very well, the part about adapting to things you haven't read properly, shapes become... out of shape if that makes sense. Also, I like the use of the elbows in Keysi FM / 52blocks that I saw.
Have done irregular sessions with Muay Thai / kickboxing / Gracie Barra BJJ but need to do regular sessions, hopefully soon.
I was always interested in what Carlson Gracie said about wing chun too, to cross train the arts. All this aswell as working on chum kiu more


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## Cyriacus (Feb 7, 2012)

Before I say anything, Im not contradicting You.



WingChunIan said:


> nope, I just live in the real world and don't think that having a nice pre arranged game of bouncing around with a guy who attacks in expected ways, with gloves on in a nice clean soft area under the watchful eyes of plenty of others, where I can stop if "it gets out of hand" gives you magical powers either.
> 
> *A Fair Response. There are people who think Wing Chun = All Powerful though, so be mindful Good Sir *
> 
> ...



Just My Contribution.


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## WingChunIan (Feb 7, 2012)

> Pre Fight Rituals dont always exist. Ive seen plenty a fight start with someone daring to glance at someone else, and paying the price. Additionally, different people react to adrenalin in different ways. Some become inclined to fight until they collapse from Adrenalin, others freak out, others fall in many areas in between, and so forth. Of course, that isnt just Adrenalin. But its at the center of the reaction. Range? You shouldnt need to have a 'Your Range'. Thats silly. A Prefered Range? Sure. Obstacles, Uneven Ground, and Third Parties should be irrelevant. What Youre learning should be usable with any of those three things present


. *- *My point entirely, sparring is prearranged it starts at a known time from a predictable range, real fights don't.



> And this is where Training Syllabus comes in. You cant dwell on being sucker punched in the back of the head by a coke snorting drunk 20 somethinger with heavy hands and a switchblade with eight mates following in toe. Sure, its possible. But with that mindset, you may as well just stay at home and lock yourself in a metal box for fear of danger. Additionally, most people just think they can fight, because theyve fought other people who think they can fight. Most but not all, certainly. Its a complex issue, that cant be brought down to one possible scenario


*. *Agreed but equally the scenario of ruling out all of the above and thinking that just because you can live with good fighters within a gym environment makes you ready for the street is also futile and arguably a lot more dangerous than paranoia. 
To each his own but in my experience, coke snorting is prevalent in most major cities in the UK on a friday and saturday night, as is power drinking and the use of glasses and bottles as weapons is common place. Multiple assailants is also far more common than one on one attacks unless we are talking predatory assault or the event where the initial assailant is winning easily and his mates and passers by choose to watch rather than participate. Personaly I train for the worst and hope for the best whlst realising I'm human and the reailty will probably be somewhere in the middle.


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## Eric_H (Feb 7, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> . *- *My point entirely, sparring is prearranged it starts at a known time from a predictable range, real fights don't.



No it doesn't, unless you only do it that way or square off in some olmypic style TKD stuff.

There are many categories to sparring, you are choosing to only see one of them.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 7, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> . *- *My point entirely, sparring is prearranged it starts at a known time from a predictable range, real fights don't.
> 
> *Unless the Sparring is made to start from an indeterminable Range. A known time, however? Yes. An example of Unarranged Sparring would be Sparring that is barely seperable from a Drill in which the Attacker resists freely.*
> 
> ...


*nods


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## WTchap (Feb 8, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> and this is where you seem to have misunderstood what Ip Man enouraged, he promoted his students training hard with each other, developing their skills and then testing them against opponents in real fights not in games of tag. The culture of the time in HK and the presence of the Kowloon walled city provided ample opportunity to do so. Today in most parts of the world the law frowns upon such activities. Whilst I agree that sparring can be useful trying to pass it off as a modern equivalent to roof top challenge matches is silly.



This thread has some complex issues and I find myself agreeing with different things different people say :ultracool. However, in reference to the above quote.... I wouldn't, personally, put too much sway in the HK rooftop fights/challenge matches. Years ago there was a fair amount of footage online, then it seemed to be deleted down to a few video clips on Youtube, and now you can maybe find a few if you search really hard.

From the video footage I saw, these challenge matches were very poor and those who took part looked fairly low in skill level - in no way comparable to fighters we see in _amateur_ events today. And I say amateur because that is what those HK guys looked like. Most of them were also young - looking to be in their late teens/early 20s. So not exactly hugely experienced in the systems they studied (not that it was easy to determine who had studied what ). 

I don't want to sound too harsh, but I've seen better fights (better punching and kicking and rough takedowns) in school fights between people with no training whatsoever. 

So... WingChunIan is quite right - sparring is not, or shouldn't be, a modern equivalent to roof top challenge matches (thank God!).


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## Domino (Feb 8, 2012)

Theres alot of flower arranging going on.
Just really want to know how you bridge the gap between fighting or self defence in a realistic manner.
Have you tried using tan sau or bong sau in fighting range? ...at the moment doesn't really work for me.


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## Domino (Feb 8, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> Depends what you consider "Pressure" doesn't it mate.
> 
> One man's concept of extreme pressure maybe just a "Walk in the park cuddling fluffy puppies to another man.
> It's all relative isn't it.
> ...



Haha thanks for giving the time to reply.
For me pressure is having a suprise attack from punching distance or closer, pressure is a sparring partner going 60-90% and not stopping until he's down and I can flee lol, .... pressure is also emmotional I guess.
Yes I work 4 corner deflection but like what I read about 'random' arms and legs, this is what I need I think. I'm one of these who doesn't mind getting a clip, if you do get a punch/sore nose/runny eyes/bone clash don't stop to powder your nose or accept apologies and graces.... keep training through it.
Thank you for the information and will be putting these into practice Thursday.


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## Domino (Feb 17, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Nothing against Wing Chun, I am rather impressed by it actually
> 
> Spar with styles other than Wing Chun... basically check what you know against what others know... and that goes for any style



Thanks dude, not messed with BJJ lately but finding Muay Thai very interesting.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2012)

Domino said:


> Thanks dude, not messed with BJJ lately but finding Muay Thai very interesting.



One of the best learning experiences I have ever had training MA was way back almost 20 years ago when my first let a bunch of us use his school for free on Saturday afternoons to spar. We had Long Fist people, Aikido people, Southern Mantis, TKD, Karate, Kenpo, Judo, Taiji, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang all represented and sparing those other styles taught me a lot. Southern Mantis taught me to never EVER spar a Southern Mantis person again , I got beat bad and it was so very coolpainful but cool.


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## Domino (Feb 20, 2012)

Haha that sounds great.
What did you learn from the experience with the mantis guy?
I got clipped a few times last week but enjoy breaking down where i'm going wrong and then putting it right.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 20, 2012)

Domino said:


> Haha that sounds great.
> What did you learn from the experience with the mantis guy?
> I got clipped a few times last week but enjoy breaking down where i'm going wrong and then putting it right.



I learned that you should never mess with a southern mantis guy  I also learned that he could fall down and spring right back up like a weeble. 

I also learned that he had a problem defending against Xingyiquan, I learned Piquan works, but sadly I was so very new at xingyiquan I only knew on thing and that was not enough to not get beat...bad. But like I said it was cool


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## WCman1976 (Feb 20, 2012)

It IS a difficult subject. In fact, someone (who will remain nameless) got into a rather disrespectful discussion with me the other day because I said we didn't do any sparring at our school. However, this is because at the moment we have a lot of beginners, and you can't just throw newbies into a free-for-all. Right now we do chi sao and drills where we practice against specific "what if" scenarios. 

Having said that, it doesn't mean none of us there (including Sifu) don't understand the value behind free form sparring. Then again, as some of you have already pointed out on this thread, sparring doesn't mean you will be able to handle yourself on the street either. Maybe it is a step closer to "real" fighting than chi sao, but it is still lacking in one thing: the element of surprise. 

In a bar, if someone comes up to you and starts talking aggressively and getting in your personal space, there is no way to predict how the situation will go. You can't guarantee he will hit you. Some people are just all talk. Another element of surprise in real fighting is the good old-fashioned sucker punch that some of you have mentioned. Your attacker on the street won't always come at you from the front.

So what way is there to train for "real" combat if every scenario you can legally do is artificial in that one aspect? You can't go out and just antagonize people into attacking you because (1) you will both get taken away and arrested, and I can barely afford my wing chun school's tuition, let alone the bail to get out every time I do a pressure test, and (2) when it comes to light that YOU were the instigator...well, the judge won't like that! The only other thing I can think of would be to go out to a certain part of a city or town with some fellow martial artists, and all of you take turns somehow randomly attacking each other on the streets. (By that I mean one of you takes turns just walking the streets while the others wait to unexpectedly pounce on you.) HOWEVER, you would have a hell of a lot of explaining to do if the cops spotted one of your pressure tests going on!

Just like there is no way to train for every "what if" self-defense scenario, I don't think there is really any way to train for the way fights will really be on the streets...without getting into the legal trouble I mentioned above, of course. But like someone else mentioned, if you dwell on how many scenarios are out there, then you would be better off just staying home. (After all, you can work from home...you can even have groceries delivered to your home!) 

In my opinion, I think all that can really be done is to just train, train, train. Speaking from my experience, I train not just for the self-defense but also for the pure love of the art. I want to develop my wing chun so that it works for me, just like I developed skills with writing and guitar. And here we come upon a point I have made before...how I have come to link wing chun to every other form of artistic expression I have engaged in. This might be kind of a stretch to make this analogy, but I will draw a comparison anyway:

When I sit down with a guitar or a pen and piece of paper, I don't think about whether or not the song or story I create will appeal to everyone...much in the same way I don't think about whether or not my wing chun skills will apply to this or that self-defense scenario. I just write because I love writing, and hopefully someone out there will appreciate what I create.

I realize this analogy isn't 100% accurate, but it comes closest to expressing how I feel about this type of debate. Since you can't engage in true 100% authentic street fight experience without getting into REAL street fights (and, therefore, legal trouble), then you might as well train with what you CAN legally do. It IS a big gamble (because what if what you are learning turns out to be crap?), but it is the only thing I see myself able to do. I am married with four kids, so I can't really afford to go out and make someone mad enough to hit me just to prove my training is good.

Sorry for carrying on, but then again it IS a debate that has many dimensions!


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