# Are you really interested in exchanging ideas?



## geezer (Oct 31, 2016)

Why the heck do any of us keep posting on this forum??? For me it boils down to two main reasons. First I love the martial arts, and WC/VT/WT in particular. And it's just fun to talk about it. 

Secondly, there are some really knowledgeable folks posting here with a wide range of experiences, and I'm really interested in _their_ approaches to WC/VT. I always feel I can deepen my understanding of this profound art by conversing with others with different experiences.  

But some others seem to come here already _convinced _that their branch is the true, authentic and correct branch. I'm always surprised when people with such parochial, sectarian views hang around very long (most don't). All they do is alienate the rest of the posters here, and they certainly don't get any converts. For the life of me, I really don't know what they get out it ...so I'm asking.

What brings you, and more importantly, what _keeps _you posting on this WC forum?


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## guy b (Oct 31, 2016)

I keep posting in order to leave correct information in case anyone seeking understanding is reading. 

There is a large amount of trolling here and it isn't a very pleasurable place to post, but since others helped me in the past I would like to pass on the favour if possible.


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## Vajramusti (Oct 31, 2016)

geezer said:


> Why the heck do any of us keep posting on this forum??? For me it boils down to two main reasons. First I love the martial arts, and WC/VT/WT in particular. And it's just fun to talk about it.
> 
> Secondly, there are some really knowledgeable folks posting here with a wide range of experiences, and I'm really interested in _their_ approaches to WC/VT. I always feel I can deepen my understanding of this profound art by conversing with others with different experiences.
> 
> ...


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## Nobody Important (Oct 31, 2016)

I post here because I can't LARP in the winter. And if I come out of the basement my mom makes me do things like take my cousin Judy to the school dance. Also, if I post enough here I'll get a black belt! Gotta go, guys are coming over for D&D.


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## LFJ (Oct 31, 2016)

So, you aren't interested in current topics and _this_ is the thread you start to spark new discussion? Just sounds like more complaining.

I've shared a ton of information on this forum, but when specific questions are asked of others they are avoided.

There are more takers than givers on this forum.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 31, 2016)

I post in the WC discussions because I'm almost 80% sure that many of the Jow Ga techniques counters Wing Chun techniques.  This isn't to say that one is better, it's just to say that if you fight someone from a style a lot, then you'll start thinking of and creating counters to use against that style.  

By getting a better insight to WC I'll be able to have a better understanding of Jow Ga techniques. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of politics in the WC community.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2016)

I post in the WC discussions because my

- "rhino guard" came from the WC "Tan Shou".
- "zombie's arms" came from the WC "center line theory".

I also try to spread the "liberal thinking" that "You are the master and your MA system is your slave. There is nothing that you cannot modify your MA system to meet with your own need". I'll be happy even if I can just free one slave.


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## Danny T (Nov 1, 2016)

To gain and share different perspectives


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## Transk53 (Nov 1, 2016)

Not so much posting for me, but I sincerely enjoy reading the posts of the majority of members. Keep it going I say


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## marques (Nov 1, 2016)

I am not particularly concerned with the WC discussions. But it can be generalised to other discussions.

Some people try to impose their position (lineage for WC, I guess) or their are single-minded. Some heat is nice, otherwise no one reacts.  But everyone should be confortable to expose their opinion, respecting other points of view. Otherwise a forum has no sense.

I keep coming because some questions are easy , and helping people is nice. On the other hand, I also can have valuable insights (or exchanges) from (with) other experienced people here.


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## KPM (Nov 1, 2016)

guy b said:


> I keep posting in order to leave correct information in case anyone seeking understanding is reading.
> 
> There is a large amount of trolling here and it isn't a very pleasurable place to post, but since others helped me in the past I would like to pass on the favour if possible.



It is interesting that it really doesn't ever get "unpleasant" here other than when you and LFJ get involved in a thread.  Why do you think that is?


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## guy b (Nov 1, 2016)

KPM said:


> It is interesting that it really doesn't ever get "unpleasant" here other than when you and LFJ get involved in a thread.  Why do you think that is?



People like to argue and have made a habit of it.


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## LFJ (Nov 1, 2016)

KPM said:


> It is interesting that it really doesn't ever get "unpleasant" here other than when you and LFJ get involved in a thread.  Why do you think that is?



Because you other hippies are into group hugs, no wrong answers, and everyone being special in their own ways.

Most of you don't like our perspectives because of what they mean for other YM WC. So you have taken us as the forum enemies and will argue anything we say even when there is nothing to really argue about.


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 1, 2016)

Because its interesting to see different perspectives and opinions


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## wingchun100 (Nov 1, 2016)

geezer said:


> Why the heck do any of us keep posting on this forum??? For me it boils down to two main reasons. First I love the martial arts, and WC/VT/WT in particular. And it's just fun to talk about it.
> 
> Secondly, there are some really knowledgeable folks posting here with a wide range of experiences, and I'm really interested in _their_ approaches to WC/VT. I always feel I can deepen my understanding of this profound art by conversing with others with different experiences.
> 
> ...


 
For the occasions where there ARE intelligent, open-minded responses.


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 1, 2016)

Oh boy another thread that seems its about to to turn into an argument. Time to unfollow this thread


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## Transk53 (Nov 1, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Because you other hippies are into group hugs, no wrong answers, and everyone being special in their own ways.
> 
> Most of you don't like our perspectives because of what they mean for other YM WC. So you have taken us as the forum enemies and will argue anything we say even when there is nothing to really argue about.



Don't think that is the case at all. People are talking about Wing Chun, or at least that is what it is supposed to be, not some kind of dogma war. Perspectives are fine, along as one can accept another. That is how we all learn after all.


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## wckf92 (Nov 1, 2016)

I come here to read and learn and observe etc. I somtimes share my input. I'm not good at details and debating and analyzing and all that other stuff. One thing this forum and others like it have taught me is that the WC world is wider than I had originally thought! 
I've also learned that there are some pretty smart dudes on here...way smarter than me, and that is always a learning opportunity for me. 
I've also learned that pretty much all of us drink/sip/gulp/guzzle a particular blend of kool aid...


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2016)

geezer said:


> Why the heck do any of us keep posting on this forum??? For me it boils down to two main reasons. First I love the martial arts, and WC/VT/WT in particular. And it's just fun to talk about it.
> 
> Secondly, there are some really knowledgeable folks posting here with a wide range of experiences, and I'm really interested in _their_ approaches to WC/VT. I always feel I can deepen my understanding of this profound art by conversing with others with different experiences.
> 
> ...


I look for different perspectives from my own (to challenge my views) and to see who shares my views (validation). To find out what is working for others, and what isn't. To find out what pushes people's buttons - that's usually either an area of high interest or an area of misunderstanding.

I gather new ideas, help correct misperceptions where I can, and share in the community most here perceive in the martial arts world.


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## ShortBridge (Nov 1, 2016)

I'm here mostly to learn. I'm interested in what other people share about their training, not only with Wing Chun, but other systems and practices as well. I'll admit that I don't share all that much, because I know that whatever I do will be trolled. 

Lineage politics in wing chun are tiring and disappointing to me, but easy to ignore. What gets me is there seem to be people who a) don't know wing chun b) aren't interested in wing chun and c) are convinced that wing chun is bad who somehow have prioritized hanging out in this forum (and others) to confront anyone who does it. Maybe this is the "freeing slaves" mentality. Seems like they would have something better to put their energy into, though. Like, I don't know, training or freeing actual slaves if that is their passion. 

Seems like the forum moderators would shut them down so that the forum could get used as intended, but I know that's a tough gig.


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## Herbie (Nov 1, 2016)

I came here to learn more about Wing Chun. In my brief time practicing WC, there were many principles that fit in well with my other training  (connecting, adduction) and some that did not mesh at all (100% weight on rear foot.)  I  left that school; not because of those differences, of course.  If I return to WC someday, I'd like to check out other branches.  If your system pivots on the heels, toes, or left butt cheek, I  don't care.  IF you can explain why, make it work, and teach it, I'm open to it.  Not because your sifu said so and he is the one true way. I don't care at all whose style is closer to Yip Man, or who was a student of whom.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2016)

Herbie said:


> I came here to learn more about Wing Chun. In my brief time practicing WC, there were many principles that fit in well with my other training  (connecting, adduction) and some that did not mesh at all (100% weight on rear foot.)  I  left that school; not because of those differences, of course.  If I return to WC someday, I'd like to check out other branches.  If your system pivots on the heels, toes, or left butt cheek, I  don't care.  IF you can explain why, make it work, and teach it, I'm open to it.  Not because your sifu said so and he is the one true way. I don't care at all whose style is closer to Yip Man, or who was a student of whom.


I do want to see video of that left-butt-cheek pivot, though.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 1, 2016)

I would like to see more people talk about what they do instead of trying to invalidate someone else.  It's not necessary to believe or make it about what's right or what's wrong. 

Guy A does this and Guy B does something else.  That's how they do things and both may have some knowledge that is useful.  But we won't know if all they are doing is fighting debates and try to present the better argument instead of sharing their experience.


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## Parky (Nov 1, 2016)

I've only posted on here a few times. I occasionally peek at this forum to see if there is any interesting discussion going on. Like most forums, some threads start off interesting but degrade into off-topic arguments. While that can be entertaining, I would rather learn something. Still it's interesting to see how others perceive wing chun. It is definitely a system that has many unique approaches...some I agree with, some I don't. To be honest, I prefer to use this as a place to connect with people off-line. I have already connected with some great people...one of whom has dramatically changed the course of my training.

Leaving record for others, 'correct information', as Guy B stated, is a very altruistic ideal, if indeed you have the 'correct information'. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. I, for one, have been sure I had the 'correct information' several times along my WC journey. At some point I decided better to try and be more humble, as there are many paths up the mountain.

All in all, this seems to be an okay WC forum. Maybe I'll post more in the future when I'm finally sure that I have the 'correct information'.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2016)

Parky said:


> I've only posted on here a few times. I occasionally peek at this forum to see if there is any interesting discussion going on. Like most forums, some threads start off interesting but degrade into off-topic arguments. While that can be entertaining, I would rather learn something. Still it's interesting to see how others perceive wing chun. It is definitely a system that has many unique approaches...some I agree with, some I don't. To be honest, I prefer to use this as a place to connect with people off-line. I have already connected with some great people...one of whom has dramatically changed the course of my training.
> 
> Leaving record for others, 'correct information', as Guy B stated, is a very altruistic ideal, if indeed you have the 'correct information'. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. I, for one, have been sure I had the 'correct information' several times along my WC journey. At some point I decided better to try and be more humble, as there are many paths up the mountain.
> 
> All in all, this seems to be an okay WC forum. Maybe I'll post more in the future when I'm finally sure that I have the 'correct information'.


I'm fairly certain that WC is no different from any other MA in that there is not a single "correct" version of the information. Rather, there are likely several ways that can be "correct", and as a student approaches any one of them, they start to better understand how much they still haven't gotten "correct".


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## Cephalopod (Nov 1, 2016)

I drop by to gain a better understanding of _why_ other practitioners do what they do.

I used to see different angles, structures and approaches from the ones I practice, and in the back of my head I would write them off as wrong or even garbage. Why? Because they were not the same as my own. Then I started getting out more and visiting other schools, rolling and sparring with other lineages and styles.

In short order I found that others simply had their own way of making things work. Those different angles and structures simply had to be put in the context of everything else they were doing. In the process I learned more about my own practice...exploited weaknesses that needed to be resolved or simply different useful perspectives on a concept I could apply to my stuff.

Thus far, nothing I've experienced has made the teachings of my sifu seem any less valid or made me feel I should be investing my time elsewhere. But I have come away with a healthy respect for (well, at least some of ) the other schools I've played with, and I'm grateful for the learning I've done with their help.

Likewise I have gleaned a good bit of insight into other lineages and schools of thought by lurking in the shadows of this forum. So I thank you all!

So often I feel like contributing an idea to a thread but by the time I get there it has devolved into a few guys grinding axes. My desire to throw myself into such an unproductive fray just evaporates. Maybe I'm too mellow, maybe I just believe that the essence of Wing Chun is to let force by, not to fight it with more force.

Train on!


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## KPM (Nov 1, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Because you other hippies are into group hugs, no wrong answers, and everyone being special in their own ways.
> 
> Most of you don't like our perspectives because of what they mean for other YM WC. So you have taken us as the forum enemies and will argue anything we say even when there is nothing to really argue about.



Well, its kind of interesting that Callen and Lobo66 manage to post here without offending and insulting everyone.  You know, that "other" forum went downhill and all but died because it got very "unpleasant".  And the "unpleasantness" centered around a small group of posters....at least 3 of which were very dogmatic WSLPBVT guys.   

I'd recommend you go back and read the tag line for this forum in general..."friendly martial arts discussions".  And it might help to read the rules.   It really isn't all that hard to post in a tactful and inoffensive way while still describing how your system is different than others.  Maybe your version of VT is better!  But why not let people reach that conclusion on their own based upon your technical explanations rather than just simply pronouncing every Ip Man system other than WSLVT to be "broken"?


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## guy b (Nov 1, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Because you other hippies are into group hugs, no wrong answers, and everyone being special in their own ways.



www.aikiweb.com/forums/


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## LFJ (Nov 1, 2016)

KPM said:


> It really isn't all that hard to post in a tactful and inoffensive way while still describing how your system is different than others.  Maybe your version of VT is better!  But why not let people reach that conclusion on their own based upon your technical explanations rather than just simply pronouncing every Ip Man system other than WSLVT to be "broken"?



I don't think I have been unfriendly. It's just that the info and perspective I share doesn't sit well with you.

And I've had private messages over time from people who appreciate my technical explanations. So, I don't mind if you want to keep upsetting yourself when I share a view you don't like. Maybe you should start your own message board.


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## Juany118 (Nov 1, 2016)

I post because I see martial arts not only as a tool for fighting but also for personal growth.  To grow you need to expose yourself to other ideas and compare them to your own with an open mind, even if in the end it simply becomes an exercise in compare and contrast.  If we learn something new we grow, if we reinforce what we already know we become stronger.

I also understand that people will think they have little or nothing to learn.  The only time that becomes frustrating is how they express it.  Think political Commentators in the US.  You have George Will (and had William F Buckley) a Conservative but also intellectual who also believes in producing evidence and civilized debate, even if he knows the result will be two people disagreeing.  When he (they) would debate they sought an exchange of ideas.  Then you have someone like Sean Hannity.  He isn't looking for a civilized debate and an exchange of ideas.  He does a political version of preaching to the choir with little evidence and in the end, if you disagree tries to club you over the head with it.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Transk53 (Nov 2, 2016)

guy b said:


> www.aikiweb.com/forums/



Not quite sure why you posted this link here? Are they hippies as well?


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## realg7 (Nov 2, 2016)

Because they're all lonely and want to be heard...they want to be loved....lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## guy b (Nov 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I'm fairly certain that WC is no different from any other MA in that there is not a single "correct" version of the information



Why are you certain of this?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2016)

guy b said:


> Why are you certain of this?


Because, as I've pointed out in a different thread, absolute transmission of information is impossible human-to-human. Each person will add and remove bits, mostly by interpretation. If two people were trained ABSOLUTELY THE SAME, and were both highly dedicated and intelligent, they'd end up with two different variations of the same thing. There's no way to avoid that, no magical training method stops it from happening.


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## guy b (Nov 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Because, as I've pointed out in a different thread, absolute transmission of information is impossible human-to-human. Each person will add and remove bits, mostly by interpretation. If two people were trained ABSOLUTELY THE SAME, and were both highly dedicated and intelligent, they'd end up with two different variations of the same thing. There's no way to avoid that, no magical training method stops it from happening.



Yes but we have also discussed that envelopes of acceptable variation vary with different activities and that WSL VT is predominantly a skill learned physically via paired exercises and other drills.

You agree that physical skills can be learned exactly to within a very small margin of error. Given that you now know a bit more about how the system is learned, and given the topics of recent arguments, why would you assume that there is not a single correct version, and that several ways that the system can be "correct" is more likely?

It seems like quite a political thing to say, and not based on much, given that you haven't experienced the system? Seems more motivated by what LFJ described as a hippyish tendency to want everyone to be right and for everything to be relative than any kind of evidence based understanding?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2016)

guy b said:


> Yes but we have also discussed that envelopes of acceptable variation vary with different activities and that WSL VT is predominantly a skill learned physically via paired exercises and other drills.
> 
> You agree that physical skills can be learned exactly to within a very small margin of error. Given that you now know a bit more about how the system is learned, and given the topics of recent arguments, why would you assume that there is not a single correct version, and that several ways that the system can be "correct" is more likely?
> 
> It seems like quite a political thing to say, and not based on much, given that you haven't experienced the system? Seems more motivated by what LFJ described as a hippyish tendency to want everyone to be right and for everything to be relative than any kind of evidence based understanding?



As we discussed before, the physical skills - even if that is how it is transmitted (I'll come back to that in a moment) - are the only part that can be transmitted pretty closely. There will still be variation, but it's possible within several generations to have no significant physical variations in any area that matters. The issue is with understanding - things like strategy, the principles behind the movements, etc. Those concepts must be dealt with in the mind of the student, and that mind is where the differences occur.

As for the art being transmitted entirely physically, that's perception. The reality is that the instructors talk for a reason. You've already discussed the fact that YM was sparing in his dissemination of information, not sharing the same explanations with every student, but still presented the entirety of the physical movement in a logical, step-by-step order. By contrast, WSL presented the information more fully, in a more complete manner. That's not a difference in the physical delivery, but in explanations.

This has nothing to do with a "tendency to want everyone to be right", but a recognition that it's highly improbable that only one way is. There are certainly ways to get it wrong. I've yet to find an art that couldn't manage to produce some instructors who mess it up, either by misunderstanding, by omission, or by adding stuff that doesn't fit.


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## guy b (Nov 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> The issue is with understanding - things like strategy, the principles behind the movements, etc. Those concepts must be dealt with in the mind of the student, and that mind is where the differences occur.



In VT the strategy which requires understanding by the mind is very sparse, and it is recorded quite explicitly in writing.

As Philipp Bayer says, "Understanding the genius of Ving Tsun should not take longer than an afternoon. By then, everything should be clear"

Understanding of strategy and tactic is indeed passed into the body and mind via physical exercises, not by listening to the teacher speak. Learning the system physically in the correct way is by far the most important thing.



gpseymour said:


> As for the art being transmitted entirely physically, that's perception.



No, it isn't. System understanding is required by the teacher. It isn't required by the student. Knowing the reason for performing a particular drill is of course very useful in terms of understanding, but the system is not learned by listening, pondering, coming up with ideas and new developments. Provided practice is taken seriously and training is done to the best of one's abilities, VT can be learned fully while having only very basic conscious conceptual understanding of the system. 

What it does require though is immense trust and perseverence.



gpseymour said:


> You've already discussed the fact that YM was sparing in his dissemination of information, not sharing the same explanations with every student, but still presented the entirety of the physical movement in a logical, step-by-step order.



YM certainly didn't share the entirety of the physical movement with every student. Many simply copied other students. Many did not complete the system. Many never fought with VT for example, which is a necessary part of the development.

Where YM did show teach the physical movements to particular individuals (of course in the correct order, at the correct time), what he often didn't do was make sure the students knew what they were doing. Many therefore left with parts of the system, not yet functional, which they assumed were for other things than the actual purpose, for example chi sau drills. Many also created their own understanding of why they were doing certain exercises, which quickly led to the degeneration of their wing chun.

By looking at some of the wing chun derived from YM's teaching it is often clearly possible to tell where the originator of the style stopped learning the system from YM.


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## wingchun100 (Nov 2, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Don't think that is the case at all. People are talking about Wing Chun, or at least that is what it is supposed to be, not some kind of dogma war. Perspectives are fine, along as one can accept another. That is how we all learn after all.


 
Yes, if only we ALL followed that code.


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## SOD-WC (Nov 2, 2016)

I hang around to learn and pick up different views and their own interpretation of the art.

I love doing wc but im still new, so cant really provide any advice or contribute to any discussions.

Try to stay out of the political side as it does not help me get better, the human body works in many ways and there is always multiple solutions to any situation.


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## wingchun100 (Nov 2, 2016)

ShortBridge said:


> I'm here mostly to learn. I'm interested in what other people share about their training, not only with Wing Chun, but other systems and practices as well. I'll admit that I don't share all that much, because I know that whatever I do will be trolled.
> 
> Lineage politics in wing chun are tiring and disappointing to me, but easy to ignore. What gets me is there seem to be people who a) don't know wing chun b) aren't interested in wing chun and c) are convinced that wing chun is bad who somehow have prioritized hanging out in this forum (and others) to confront anyone who does it. Maybe this is the "freeing slaves" mentality. Seems like they would have something better to put their energy into, though. Like, I don't know, training or freeing actual slaves if that is their passion.
> 
> Seems like the forum moderators would shut them down so that the forum could get used as intended, but I know that's a tough gig.


 

We might have two discussions per thread LOL.


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## wingchun100 (Nov 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would like to see more people talk about what they do instead of trying to invalidate someone else.  It's not necessary to believe or make it about what's right or what's wrong.
> 
> Guy A does this and Guy B does something else.  That's how they do things and both may have some knowledge that is useful.  But we won't know if all they are doing is fighting debates and try to present the better argument instead of sharing their experience.


 
Exactly. The discussions should be about sharing what works for you, then the other person saying, "Hmmm...never thought of it that way."

But instead what happens when you share something that is different from how the other guy does it? "That would never work!!! That isn't real wing chun!!! You're stupid!!!"


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## wingchun100 (Nov 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would like to see more people talk about what they do instead of trying to invalidate someone else.  It's not necessary to believe or make it about what's right or what's wrong.
> 
> Guy A does this and Guy B does something else.  That's how they do things and both may have some knowledge that is useful.  But we won't know if all they are doing is fighting debates and try to present the better argument instead of sharing their experience.


 
The Guy A and Guy B thing...that CANNOT be a coincidence. LOL


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## wingchun100 (Nov 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Because, as I've pointed out in a different thread, absolute transmission of information is impossible human-to-human. Each person will add and remove bits, mostly by interpretation. If two people were trained ABSOLUTELY THE SAME, and were both highly dedicated and intelligent, they'd end up with two different variations of the same thing. There's no way to avoid that, no magical training method stops it from happening.


 
And yet we don't hear about such similar infighting between people of any other style. Well, at least I have never heard of that. If anyone can point to any examples, I would love to see it.


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## KPM (Nov 2, 2016)

^^^^ I know Silat Serak and Bukti Negara has had its fair share of such things!


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2016)

guy b said:


> In VT the strategy which requires understanding by the mind is very sparse, and it is recorded quite explicitly in writing.
> 
> As Philipp Bayer says, "Understanding the genius of Ving Tsun should not take longer than an afternoon. By then, everything should be clear"
> 
> ...


You're clearly not going to acknowledge that learning depends upon the human mind, and that concepts are NOT contained and transmitted entirely in movements (not the same areas of the brain). I'm just going to drop this line of discussion. Your technical discussions are more fruitful than this - you're denying what we actually know about how the brain works.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> And yet we don't hear about such similar infighting between people of any other style. Well, at least I have never heard of that. If anyone can point to any examples, I would love to see it.


Most arts will have some amount of this - it depends upon at least one person perceiving the others as "wrong" and putting that case forward, and the others disputing it. In most arts, there are few people who will vehemently state that others don't understand the art, at all, so most disputes are more technical and nuanced in nature. But it does happen.


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## Transk53 (Nov 2, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Yes, if only we ALL followed that code.



You know what, I am still struggling to understand, how that does not work for others. Think it is dreadful thought of sticking to a singular train of thought, about whatever. Personally I would find that boring. Training would become almost robotic, and I think the persons train of thought too. Any system needs a bit of variation imho, does not mean change, just means trying different methods if you will, then on to other perspectives. It's a good thing not being robotic.


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## guy b (Nov 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> You're clearly not going to acknowledge that learning depends upon the human mind, and that concepts are NOT contained and transmitted entirely in movements (not the same areas of the brain). I'm just going to drop this line of discussion. Your technical discussions are more fruitful than this - you're denying what we actually know about how the brain works.



If learning in VT consists of physical exercies which embed movement patterns (which you acknowledge can be learned almost exactly), and if in practice (and learning) VT doesn't require conscious thought about concepts or anything else, then what are you even arguing about?

Again I think an element of hippydom in terms of wanting everyone to be friends, truth to exist in every approach, and all approaches to be relative and to get to the same place by a different road is clouding any clear assessment of the situation. I think also an element of hubris about your position as a brain expert and embarrassment at the potential that you might have to retract a fairly rash early assessment of a system you know nothing about.

My opinion of aikido? I don't have one.


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## Juany118 (Nov 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> You're clearly not going to acknowledge that learning depends upon the human mind, and that concepts are NOT contained and transmitted entirely in movements (not the same areas of the brain). I'm just going to drop this line of discussion. Your technical discussions are more fruitful than this - you're denying what we actually know about how the brain works.



The problem is this.  It is not enough that WSLVT is an effective fighting art. WSL himself must be the only person to have learned the "true" form of VT/WC/WT from YM.  Ergo, they have to play games as to the influence of teaching methods (first deny they exist then when confronted with proof change arguments), how the brain absorbs and retains information etc.  

Why in the world this is so important as to require the contortions in logic and actual 180 degree changes in arguments is beyond me.


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## Juany118 (Nov 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Most arts will have some amount of this - it depends upon at least one person perceiving the others as "wrong" and putting that case forward, and the others disputing it. In most arts, there are few people who will vehemently state that others don't understand the art, at all, so most disputes are more technical and nuanced in nature. But it does happen.



Yep, I remember that from my Aikido days.  Thing is though I don't recall anyone saying "only Bob knows the true Aikido as taught by O' Sensei.  We would debate whether it should be taught as a fighting art or as an art for spiritual cultivation etc. but placing individual students of O' Sensei in positions akin to being "the one true prophet?"  This I have not seen else where.  Even in JKD it is about "JKD Concepts" and "Original JKD", not the people but the systems.


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## Transk53 (Nov 2, 2016)

guy b said:


> If learning in VT consists of physical exercies which embed movement patterns (which you acknowledge can be learned almost exactly), and if in practice (and learning) VT doesn't require conscious thought about concepts or anything else, then what are you even arguing about?
> 
> Again I think an element of hippydom in terms of wanting everyone to be friends, *truth to exist in every approach, and all approaches to be relative and to get to the same place by a different road is clouding any clear assessment of the situation*. I think also an element of hubris about your position as a brain expert and embarrassment at the potential that you might have to retract a fairly rash early assessment of a system you know nothing about.
> 
> My opinion of aikido? I don't have one.



There is truth in every approach, and all systems ultimately arrive at the same conclusion.


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## wtxs (Nov 2, 2016)

SOD-WC said:


> I hang around to learn and pick up different views and their own interpretation of the art.
> 
> I love doing wc but im still new, so cant really provide any advice or contribute to any discussions.
> 
> Try to _*stay out of the political side*_ as it does not help me get better, _*the human body works in many ways and there is always multiple solutions to any situation*_.



You are an fast learner


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## Juany118 (Nov 2, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> There is truth in every approach, and all systems ultimately arrive at the same conclusion.



What people forget is when it comes to martial arts you are not talking about "small t" truth such as "do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God." That is an objective truth.  You are talking instead talking about "big T" Truth, the meaning of life "Truth", the personal Truth.  Every person is different physically, mentally and emotionally Martial arts are the synergy of these dynamics put into motion.  So by definition the Truth will be subjective.


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## Transk53 (Nov 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> What people forget is when it comes to martial arts you are not talking about "small t" truth such as "do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God." That is an objective truth.  You are talking instead talking about "big T" Truth, the meaning of life "Truth", the personal Truth.  Every person is different physically, mentally and emotionally Martial arts are the synergy of these dynamics put into motion.  So by definition the Truth will be subjective.



Yes good answer. You don't really know with a lot of things. I just best summarise it as "**** happens" You can never do anything to mitigate that, but at least can be worked around.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Yep, I remember that from my Aikido days.  Thing is though I don't recall anyone saying "only Bob knows the true Aikido as taught by O' Sensei.  We would debate whether it should be taught as a fighting art or as an art for spiritual cultivation etc. but placing individual students of O' Sensei in positions akin to being "the one true prophet?"  This I have not seen else where.  Even in JKD it is about "JKD Concepts" and "Original JKD", not the people but the systems.


Agreed. The closest I've seen is in regards to Saito Sensei, who appears to be the closest to teaching as Ueshiba Morihei originally did (as acknowledged by Stan Pranin). However, I don't hear much of anyone claiming that's the only right way, just that it's the way closest to the way the founder taught.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2016)

I'm pretty sure if the founders were still alive and still in their prime, they would have made changes to how they fight, just for the simple fact that fighting systems come in contact with each other more frequently.  The fighting strategies aren't as local as they were in the past.


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## Transk53 (Nov 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm pretty sure if the founders were still alive and still in their prime, they would have made changes to how they fight, just for the simple fact that fighting systems come in contact with each other more frequently.  The fighting strategies aren't as local as they were in the past.



So I guess that is because more and more, treat the Martial Arts as a normal thing to do. In a modern age context.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> So I guess that is because more and more, treat the Martial Arts as a normal thing to do. In a modern age context.


 I think you are actually correct about Martial Arts as being a normal thing to do, which means more people are training it now than ever before. Each person has an understanding that fits them and will make an imprint on the system especially if they become teachers.  If I trained TKD and became an instructor, then I would be one of the TKD schools that didn't do the fancy kicks.  My teaching of TKD would be based on how I was able to get TKD to work for me.  Because I have a self-defense mindset, I would take out all of the things that were fancy. I would change the height of certain kicks with the goal of attacking without exposing the groin as much.   I would still be teaching but the approach to TKD would not be same as what we see other schools do.  Kicking with the hands down would be against the law in my TKD school.


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## Transk53 (Nov 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think you are actually correct about Martial Arts as being a normal thing to do, which means more people are training it now than ever before. Each person has an understanding that fits them and will make an imprint on the system especially if they become teachers.  If I trained TKD and became an instructor, then I would be one of the TKD schools that didn't do the fancy kicks.  My teaching of TKD would be based on how I was able to get TKD to work for me.  Because I have a self-defense mindset, I would take out all of the things that were fancy. I would change the height of certain kicks with the goal of attacking without exposing the groin as much.   I would still be teaching but the approach to TKD would not be same as what we see other schools do.  Kicking with the hands down would be against the law in my TKD school.



Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I don't know why, but the TKD surprises me, but yes, I can see what you are saying to certain degree of course. So more lower kicks, but in higher frequency?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I don't know why, but the TKD surprises me, but yes, I can see what you are saying to certain degree of course. So more lower kicks, but in higher frequency?


My statement about TKD is based on my knowledge of what Jow Ga does.  We train to deal with high kicks and we know how to exploit the weaknesses and opportunities that come with kicking high. If I could kick like TKD then I would do kick at a height where the kick lands slightly out of range of where my opponent thinks he can grab it.  I would try to make him over extend and reach for my kicks.  By not kicking high, I don't expose my knee or my groin as much.  It also makes it difficult to have my standing leg swept from under me.

Keep in mind that I train for self-defense so when I see a standing leg, I'm instantly thinking about breaking it.  Also keep in mind that sporting environments have rules that protect the fighter and makes it possible to do things that one shouldn't attempt or should attempt with caution in a self-defense situation.

I think some people don't think about the context in which some techniques are done and as a result tend to think that the technique can be done anywhere in any situation.  Most of what is trained in Martial arts is trained in the context of someone who is the same height and size as you are.  This guy tries high kicks against a much taller opponent.  In my book this is a high risk thing to do .  Being that he was so much taller lower kicks would have been better.  Every time he kicked I thought the guy was going to kick him in his standing leg or in the groin.


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## Transk53 (Nov 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> My statement about TKD is based on my knowledge of what Jow Ga does.  We train to deal with high kicks and we know how to exploit the weaknesses and opportunities that come with kicking high. If I could kick like TKD then I would do kick at a height where the kick lands slightly out of range of where my opponent thinks he can grab it.  I would try to make him over extend and reach for my kicks.  By not kicking high, I don't expose my knee or my groin as much.  It also makes it difficult to have my standing leg swept from under me.
> 
> Keep in mind that I train for self-defense so when I see a standing leg, I'm instantly thinking about breaking it.  Also keep in mind that sporting environments have rules that protect the fighter and makes it possible to do things that one shouldn't attempt or should attempt with caution in a self-defense situation.
> 
> I think some people don't think about the context in which some techniques are done and as a result tend to think that the technique can be done anywhere in any situation.  Most of what is trained in Martial arts is trained in the context of someone who is the same height and size as you are.  This guy tries high kicks against a much taller opponent.  In my book this is a high risk thing to do .  Being that he was so much taller lower kicks would have been better.  Every time he kicked I thought the guy was going to kick him in his standing leg or in the groin.



Certainly no point in kicking in that area. Got to test the balance. Yes agree, in fact I would think that leg kicking would not even be necessary. A good old favoured rugby tackle, the wind in the sales, that kind of thing. Should have used stingers I think, use the opponent. Just my theoretical take.


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## anerlich (Nov 15, 2016)

I come here to read the revelations from the select few who have deigned to, like Bodhisattvas, drop WC truth bombs on us, the deluded multitudes practising substyles other than the direct transmission from the now ascended masters.

*dramatic pause*

But none of them seem to ever post here.


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