# Full Nelson Hold



## Transk53 (Jan 18, 2015)

Just curious here. How many of you that have been the unfortunate situation to be in this hold. Probably being naughty, but perhaps some of you peeps train this hold. I only know it from the front door, but having mistakenly believed that it banned in the UK, or not, I still don't know. Anyway, how many of you can, or think you can break it. Pretty much a pure lock up from my perspective. And again, I am merely curious


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## K-man (Jan 18, 2015)

Not sure where it is banned. We were using it over fifty years ago and I still teach it now. As to escaping, it depends how it is applied. Most people don't apply it properly which gives you the opportunity to escape from what people _think_ is the right technique. Applied properly there is virtually no escape. The secret is to escape *before* the lock is fully on or even earlier.


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## Transk53 (Jan 18, 2015)

K-man said:


> Not sure where it is banned. We were using it over fifty years ago and I still teach it now. As to escaping, it depends how it is applied. Most people don't apply it properly which gives you the opportunity to escape from what people _think_ is the right technique. Applied properly there is virtually no escape. The secret is to escape *before* the lock is fully on or even earlier.



Yes, but not many would know that.


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## seasoned (Jan 18, 2015)

Exactly K-man. As with any technique,  once locked in and strength applied it is very hard to escape from. We do teach a number of maneuvers depending on the situation.


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## Tez3 (Jan 18, 2015)

This post made both my other half and I smile. We are both of an age to remember Saturday afternoon wrestling on the black and white television when we were kids, nothing like todays pro wrestling other than it was 'theatrical' though we didn't know it then. The full nelson was positively the worst thing that could happen to a wrestler. Oh the agony as they groaned in pain! The wrestlers are all long gone now but 'full nelson' can still evoke those Saturday afternoons.
I had to go and look to see if I could find any of the wrestling on video and found one, it's in colour which surprised me but features Pat Roach who later went into acting, you may remember him from Indiana Jones as the big German fighting under the aircraft. You might enjoy the wrestling though  Not sure if there's anymore videos showing the 'full nelson' though.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 18, 2015)

Tez thanks for that old clip

I have been in the hold and have applied it a couple times but that 2as back in my youth when it was very popular when playing at wrestling in the back yard


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## Buka (Jan 18, 2015)

Any hold can be broken or escaped from, sometimes. ("sometimes" being the key word in that sentence) But, as has been said, don't get into it in the first place.

Here's something you might like - when they're going for the Full Nelson, just as you feel their arms shooting through under your arm pits - throw one arm over your head like an umbrella, your bicep _tight_ against you ear, at the same time shoot your other arm across your chest and grab the back of your ribs. The hold is thwarted, despite their strength, and their arms are trapped. (obviously, you hold tight and active) From there, it's more fun for you than it is for them.

Go try it, it's nice.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 18, 2015)

Rest assure this is about the last attack that will happen to you on the street. Your big brother or uncle, might get you in the living room, though, so, just shoot both arms straight down.


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## Transk53 (Jan 19, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Rest assure this is about the last attack that will happen to you on the street. Your big brother or uncle, might get you in the living room, though, so, just shoot both arms straight down.



You mean Disneyland streets right?


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## Tez3 (Jan 19, 2015)

It used to be something the boys liked to do when I was in primary school, they'd try it on a girl who was then defended by her friends so exit one boy beaten up by girls.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 19, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> You mean Disneyland streets right?


Who does this?


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## Transk53 (Jan 19, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Who does this?



Micky Mouse I guess


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 19, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Micky Mouse I guess


Friends, that's about it.


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## Transk53 (Jan 19, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Friends, that's about it.



Aguilera vs Spears would be funny


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 19, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Aguilera vs Spears would be funny


In a vat of Jello!


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## Transk53 (Jan 19, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> In a vat of Jello!



Topped off with pineapple's


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 19, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> how many of you can, or think you can break it.


If your opponent can force you to be on the ground and not standing on your feet, he has taken away your defense and counter. So don't let your opponent to stand on his feet is the key. The "leverage" is to make your opponent to bend backward first, you the make him to bend forward, and then take him down.


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## Transk53 (Jan 19, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your opponent can force you to be on the ground and not standing on your feet, he has taken away your defense and counter. So don't let your opponent to stand on his feet is the key. The "leverage" is to make your opponent to bend backward first, you the make him to bend forward, and then take him down.



Er yeah, I have no issues with a full Nelson fella


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Jul 8, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Just curious here. How many of you that have been the unfortunate situation to be in this hold. Probably being naughty, but perhaps some of you peeps train this hold. I only know it from the front door, but having mistakenly believed that it banned in the UK, or not, I still don't know. Anyway, how many of you can, or think you can break it. Pretty much a pure lock up from my perspective. And again, I am merely curious



I have been a martial artist for too many years to remember. The full nelson is a dangerous move and even if you know what you're doing, you should not use that move at any time. You could seriously injure the person you do it to. I have had it done to me several times by street thugs and it has injured my spine. If you do it to others--stop it! Also do not let others do it to you. Only the smart will hear me.
Sifu


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## drop bear (Jul 8, 2015)

A good full nelson is a neck crank. Hence the danger. Tyrannosaurus arms arms will prevent it. 

As far as escaping a good one. Not sure. You can drop out of a lazy one.

Mabye some sort of sep out?


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## Transk53 (Jul 8, 2015)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I have been a martial artist for too many years to remember. The full nelson is a dangerous move and even if you know what you're doing, you should not use that move at any time. You could seriously injure the person you do it to. I have had it done to me several times by street thugs and it has injured my spine. If you do it to others--stop it! Also do not let others do it to you. Only the smart will hear me.
> Sifu



Yeah I hear you. It is dangerous if one does not know how much pressure to apply, and how to safely get compliance. Personally I used to go for arm locks, a little pressure on the elbow joint usually sufficed. If it did not then they would usually want to fight, especially if they were on the marching powder. Still you can get out of it. Sorry to hear of you're spinal predicament. That is one thing I know of and I have based my SD on such a thing. I drop my weight and use what is available. I'm lucky that I know what I am doing


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## Transk53 (Jul 8, 2015)

drop bear said:


> A good full nelson is a neck crank. Hence the danger. Tyrannosaurus arms arms will prevent it.
> 
> As far as escaping a good one. Not sure. You can drop out of a lazy one.
> 
> Mabye some sort of sep out?



There is always a way, just depends on intent and fighting spirit. If subdued then the kneck crank will work, if not then you are taking them to the floor once it is apparent that submission is not forthcoming. Most do, some don't.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 8, 2015)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I have been a martial artist for too many years to remember. The full nelson is a dangerous move and even if you know what you're doing, you should not use that move at any time. You could seriously injure the person you do it to. I have had it done to me several times by street thugs and it has injured my spine. If you do it to others--stop it! Also do not let others do it to you. Only the smart will hear me.
> Sifu



Yeah, because none of the other things we practice could possibly injure anyone...
Oh wait.. they're _*supposed*_ to do that...
My bad.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 8, 2015)

little fingers break easy


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## Transk53 (Jul 9, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> little fingers break easy



So do toe's. Especially little darling soccer players.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 9, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> So do toe's. Especially little darling soccer players.



Way back when dinosaurs still walked the earth, when I was in Japanese Jujutsu, the little finger th ing was what we trained to get out of a Full Nelson, however we never did actually break our training partners little finger, we did however bend a few further than they liked....my little fingers included... while working on this


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## Transk53 (Jul 9, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Way back when dinosaurs still walked the earth, when I was in Japanese Jujutsu, the little finger th ing was what we trained to get out of a Full Nelson, however we never did actually break our training partners little finger, we did however bend a few further than they liked....my little fingers included... while working on this



Can imagine. Bending the thumb is not pleasant either.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 9, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Can imagine. Bending the thumb is not pleasant either.


 
But the thumb is much stronger than the pinky and the pinky is at the top in a full nelson hold and much easier to get too


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## Transk53 (Jul 9, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> But the thumb is much stronger than the pinky and the pinky is at the top in a full nelson hold and much easier to get too



Meant in general there.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 18, 2015)

K-man said:


> As to escaping, it depends how it is applied. Most people don't apply it properly which gives you the opportunity to escape from what people _think_ is the right technique. Applied properly there is virtually no escape. The secret is to escape *before* the lock is fully on or even earlier.



*That is the secret to escape before it is fully applied*.  Once applied it is bloody hard to get out of.  Especially if the person applying it is bigger and stronger than you.  Once fully on and they are strong, good luck!


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## Buka (Jul 18, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *That is the secret to escape before it is fully applied*.  Once applied it is bloody hard to get out of.  Especially if the person applying it is bigger and stronger than you.  Once fully on and they are strong, good luck!



Brian - ever try what I mentioned in post 7? Maybe give it a whirl.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 19, 2015)

Will do Buka!


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 20, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> But the thumb is much stronger than the pinky and the pinky is at the top in a full nelson hold and much easier to get too



True, but the pinky is smaller and harder to grasp.  Not that it can't be done, just requires a lot of practice.  Of course, what doesn't?



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *That is the secret to escape before it is fully applied*.  Once applied it is bloody hard to get out of.  Especially if the person applying it is bigger and stronger than you.  Once fully on and they are strong, good luck!



If you are lifted off the ground, you may be able to kick a kneecap.  Or you may be able to strike into the opponent's head with alternating elbows as well as knee strikes.

If not, in the Hapkido I learned I was taught, we were taught to go for the middle finger.  We were taught to strike if forcefully, bending it as you force it back.  You have a good chance of breaking it (you have to learn how to strike to lessen the chance you will scratch yourself with his fingernail).  You reach up with the opposite hand and with a tight grab of the finger, begin cranking it back.  The next part is more difficult to describe than watch, but is devastating.  If for example you struck with your left hand, you would be grabbing the finger with your right hand.  As you crank it back, pivot 180 on your left foot, moving your right wrist in contact with your opponent.  His palm will be towards you, bent back painfully.  Step back with your right foot, bending your left knee.  That forces him down and forward into your right knee as you bring it up to knee him in the face/head.

That may be hard to conceptualize, but when you see it it is easier to follow and learn.  Oh, you may have to slack off just a bit after applying back pressure.  We also use the same technique for a two handed grab from the rear where the fingers are interlocked.  I was showing that to a KATUSA in our office.  It was flowing smoothly until I realized I had pulled it back a long ways without him releasing his grip, and I heard a sudden hissing intake of breath.  I released it some and he unlocked his knuckles and it all went well again.  Well, except for the very pained look on his face.    Actually, I felt rather bad.  But he was a 3rd dan in TKD, and a good sport.  Also, his brother had studied Hapkido to 1st dan so he understood there was potential for pain and injury.  But I learned to be especially careful of showing techniques to non-Hapkido students.


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## K-man (Jul 20, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> True, but the pinky is smaller and harder to grasp.  Not that it can't be done, just requires a lot of practice.  Of course, what doesn't?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think the point that is not being addressed is that locks and holds have varying levels of application. In a real situation an arm bar can be a restraint at one end of the scale and total joint destruction at the other. In training we are at the restraint end. We learn to apply it with control to the level where it can't be reversed if it is properly applied.

The full Nelson is the same. I have never had anyone reverse it on me when properly applied. The pain is such that you can't reach for a finger and in the real world, in a life and death situation, the neck will break before anyone can get a hand near your fingers.

Play around with reversing locks and holds but don't forget that you can only do it because your partner is not really trying to damage you.

The only real answer is, 'don't let them apply it in the first place'. Aikido is great training for that because you are learning to go with the force in order to reverse it.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 21, 2015)

K-man said:


> I think the point that is not being addressed is that locks and holds have varying levels of application. In a real situation an arm bar can be a restraint at one end of the scale and total joint destruction at the other. In training we are at the restraint end. We learn to apply it with control to the level where it can't be reversed if it is properly applied.
> 
> The full Nelson is the same. I have never had anyone reverse it on me when properly applied. The pain is such that you can't reach for a finger and in the real world, in a life and death situation, the neck will break before anyone can get a hand near your fingers.
> 
> ...



I guess you aren't familiar with hapkido.  We are also taught to begin our counter as soon as we realize an attack is on the way.  We also do a lot of neck (along with other) strengthening exercises, as I am sure you do in Aikido as well.

When I was teaching, I tried to get my students to always have a focus for their attacks/counter-attacks.


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## K-man (Jul 21, 2015)

Buka said:


> Brian - ever try what I mentioned in post 7? Maybe give it a whirl.


We tried it out tonight but with limited success. I had difficulty getting my arm across the chest and it didn't break the grip for me. It worked better before the lock was applied but in that situation I prefer a couple of other defences. Any suggestions as to how I could improve the move?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 21, 2015)

K-man said:


> I think the point that is not being addressed is that locks and holds have varying levels of application. In a real situation an arm bar can be a restraint at one end of the scale and total joint destruction at the other. In training we are at the restraint end. We learn to apply it with control to the level where it can't be reversed if it is properly applied.
> 
> The full Nelson is the same. I have never had anyone reverse it on me when properly applied. The pain is such that you can't reach for a finger and in the real world, in a life and death situation, the neck will break before anyone can get a hand near your fingers.
> 
> ...


 Pretty much. Almost any hold can (potentially) be escaped if the opponent is using it just as a static restraint. However if the opponent is using the hold to inflict damage then there comes a point of no return. Asking how to escape an arm bar/full nelson/rear naked choke/etc applied by someone who knows what they are doing and has it fully sunk in is like asking how to counter a left hook after it has already landed on your jaw.

That said, most people probably don't know how to apply a full nelson properly and it isn't the easiest hold to land on a defender who is paying attention and not asleep at the wheel.


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## McDooginz (Jul 30, 2015)

Buka said:


> Any hold can be broken or escaped from, sometimes. ("sometimes" being the key word in that sentence) But, as has been said, don't get into it in the first place.
> 
> Here's something you might like - when they're going for the Full Nelson, just as you feel their arms shooting through under your arm pits - throw one arm over your head like an umbrella, your bicep _tight_ against you ear, at the same time shoot your other arm across your chest and grab the back of your ribs. The hold is thwarted, despite their strength, and their arms are trapped. (obviously, you hold tight and active) From there, it's more fun for you than it is for them.
> 
> Go try it, it's nice.



Or you just have small arms like me. 

My friend tried to put me in one and succeeded, but not for long.


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