# The Martial side of Yang



## bigfootsquatch (Sep 12, 2007)

I have read so much about the martial side until I am now utterly confused, from Dim Mak to Chi Na, grappling, strikes, to simply allowing the opponent to entangle himself!

Someone explain their views of the martial side of yang tai chi. thanks


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## East Winds (Sep 12, 2007)

bigfootsquatch,

Quite simply the Traditional Yang form is a martial form and each of the postures has  one or more martial applications. Some of the postures/applications are strikes, grabs, locks, breaks and/or throws. Training includes applying these applications with a partner in the manner in which they would be performed in the form. (Hence the absolute need for the 10 essences). Of course you need a teacher who not only knows the applications, but also knows how to apply the Jins. The trouble is that so many  teachers who profess to teach "Yang Style" do not know them!!!:erg:



Very best wishes


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## brianlkennedy (Sep 13, 2007)

The December issue of Classical Fighting Arts magazine will have an article that I did on the stand up grappling aspects of Yang taiji. Most of my thinking on this area comes from Tim Cartmell, who like myself studied taiji here in Taiwan. Mr. Cartmell has said that at least 70% of taiji is standup grappling and I tend to agree with that estimate. 

  I did not really get a grasp (oh I made a pun!) on the standup grappling aspects of Yang taiji until I training western submission wrestling under Andy Wang a few years back. Then I really began to see the wrestling tie ups, the clinch fighting and all the rest in Yang taiji. 

  It really is a great and a greatly misunderstood art. The very first move in the traditional Yang form teaches such an important idea, the idea that you gotta get the other guys head down in a fight. Usually that opening move is taught as some way to settle the chi or relax your mind or check your alignmentand it is true it maybe all those things but it is, at least in Brian-Yang taiji also a head control move.

  Some of the greatest masters of taiji combat are---modern day Greco Roman wrestlers. No fooling.

  Take care,
  Brian


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## kaustabh (Sep 17, 2007)

It may be my less experience with Yang Tai Chi, and do correct me if I am wrong, but I find it tough relating the GrecoRoman with the Yang Tai Chi. The true essence of Tai Chi is not the way the person fights, but in the Jing. A true master do not have any fixed strategy in fight, it got adjusted to the situation automatically. Thats the practice. So it is not always effective to explain styles with the approach, the use of energy is the core difference. As it appears the energy in GrecoRoman and that of Tai Chi is much different.

  On the other hand I agree that really a major part of Tai Chi is graplind and Chin Na. I am not really impressed with the Dim Mak definitions. Dim Mak is there within all Chinese Martial Arts far or less, as the Chin Na is. But Tai Chi is not a total Dim Mak as often attempted to describe it. There is a lot of Chin Na factor, Fa Jin, Dim Mak applications, Guiding opponents force. Tai Chi energy is difficult to explain but easier to feel with training under a qualified teacher.

  There are a lot of Tai Chi people here, I think we will know a lot with this thread.


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## East Winds (Sep 19, 2007)

I think I have to agree with kaustabh. I am not sure of the connection between Taiji and GrecoRoman wrestling. But then I have to admit I don't know a great deal about GrecoRoman wrestling other than having watched it in demonstrations. I have certainly never taken part in it. Perhaps Brian could ellaborate a bit?

I am sceptical also about the effectiveness of Dim Mak but again the concept of nerve endings and acu points are well known in CMA's. However I believe that the effort of trying to strike such a point with the pinpoint accuracy required would hardly be worth the effort of training when Taijij offers so many other effective possibilities.

Vety best wishes


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## Sunrise (Oct 1, 2007)

I agree, that taiji is a serious martial art, although I can understand that most teachers put their main emphasis on the health aspect of it. In most places we have a very good functioning law enforcement system, so one does not need to worry much about personal security (although the media tries to make a different impression). On the other hand, many people suffer from chronic stress-symptoms and back pain, and here taiji is a great boon, even without the martial aspect (much more so with the martial aspect, but that is hard to understand at first).

The way I learned martial art was by way of application .....do this, break that.......shove here, punch there to drive a broken rib into the lung-area.....step this way to smash opponents knee into the ground and do that to deliver a neck-trauma, etc. Needless to say, we trained only so far, and not to actual "ripping-appart" someone, but heavy bruises and sprains where common. 
When I changed to taiji I was able to bring all that knowledge over to the "soft side" of the fighting arts and when asking the different masters and teachers about it, they agreed upon the useability this techniques but suggested extreme caution while using them in taiji. Since I began to understand the mechanisms of fa-jin I know why *bg*. 
So I teach my students in this way ever since, the five ways to deliver blows with the closed fist, open hand strikes and finger punches, ellbow and kneestrikes, hip- and shouldertechniques, headbuts, takedown, peeling-the-skin-off techniques along with chin-na and nerve pressure points (I have a doctor in my staff, he is one hell of a guy when it comes to finding these spots even in combat - medical studies do pay of *bg*).

The difficult thing is to lead them to do it in an utmost relaxed and calm way, with maximum relaxed big muscle groups and strong as hell tendons and ligament, but they like it and also like the hightened health benifit in comparison to "only-energy-taichi".
When I finaly met my master, someone I was serching for over 10 years, I found out that this way of training exists since a long time in the yang family, and the last great master in "my" lineage had the saying: "Not to hit is not to teach"   I like that


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## marlon (Oct 1, 2007)

Could you explain the 'jins' a bit please.  I am not sure of the term

respectfully,
Marlon




East Winds said:


> bigfootsquatch,
> 
> Quite simply the Traditional Yang form is a martial form and each of the postures has one or more martial applications. Some of the postures/applications are strikes, grabs, locks, breaks and/or throws. Training includes applying these applications with a partner in the manner in which they would be performed in the form. (Hence the absolute need for the 10 essences). Of course you need a teacher who not only knows the applications, but also knows how to apply the Jins. The trouble is that so many teachers who profess to teach "Yang Style" do not know them!!!:erg:
> 
> ...


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## bigfootsquatch (Oct 1, 2007)

East Winds said:


> I am sceptical also about the effectiveness of Dim Mak but again the concept of nerve endings and acu points are well known in CMA's. However I believe that the effort of trying to strike such a point with the pinpoint accuracy required would hardly be worth the effort of training when Taijij offers so many other effective possibilities.
> 
> Vety best wishes


 
I agree, if one is perhaps an acupuncturist or chinese qigong doctor, then studying dim mak might would make sense. I do not see why the average(and above average) martial artist would waste time learning how the points, the types of strikes to hit them at along with the correct angle etc.


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## Sunrise (Oct 2, 2007)

marlon said:


> Could you explain the 'jins' a bit please.  I am not sure of the term
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon



Jin(chin) in general could be described as "applied energy/force" or as "chi put to work". It consists (as I understand it, there are many different theories on that) of a very relaxed wholebodymovement, the usage of flexible sinew/tendon power contraty to raw muscular power and a very clear ji (intent/focus) of what one is doing.
In case of fa-jin I mean short explosive power, like a mike tyson punch, but being delivered at shortest range or no range at all, if contact to the body is already there. Somewhat like hammer&chisel contrary to a jackhammer. The hammer has to move some way before he can slam onto the chisel and do some damage, the jackhammer has contact right from the beginning and moves more internal - not a perfect example, but I hope you get the meaning


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## marlon (Oct 2, 2007)

thank you.  sometimes the way things are discussed makes it seem like one thing is in fact many things...

marlon


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## Tai G (Oct 30, 2007)

Sunrise said:


> I agree, that taiji is a serious martial art, although I can understand that most teachers put their main emphasis on the health aspect of it. In most places we have a very good functioning law enforcement system, so one does not need to worry much about personal security...
> The way I learned martial art was by way of application .....do this, break that.......in my staff, he is one hell of a guy when it comes to finding these spots even in combat - medical studies do pay of *bg*).
> 
> The difficult thing is to lead them to do it in an utmost relaxed and calm way, with maximum relaxed big muscle groups and strong as hell tendons and ligament, but they like it and also like the hightened health benifit in comparison to "only-energy-taichi".
> ...


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