# 'Real' knife fighting



## Bruno@MT (Dec 22, 2010)

I am the first to admit I am not experienced in RBSD or knife fighting.
But when I see someone pushing a knife out of someones hand with the inside of his wrist (the beginning of the video) it makes me wonder if the other guy has any clue at all.

*EDIT: Btw, this clip is NOT graphic at all. The picture in the preview is just a sensationalist way of getting attention.
It doesn't even feature in the video.*
[yt]bqzQPxskprI[/yt]


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## Chris Parker (Dec 22, 2010)

Oh, boy.... where to start? For one thing, not sure what the map (Tokyo down to Melbourne) was about at the beginning... he's teaching concepts from Silat, not a Japanese art. His knife defence was, uh, not really something I'd recommend (although I did like the disclaimer telling "the protesters" that this was 3 minutes out of a three day course [to become an instructor, no less].... did that mean that he did some better stuff, and chose to advertise the flawed bits only?).

Then he's showing use of knife against someone punching him (?), and there's no issue he has doing that? With those movements, though, there's some okay stuff, but there's a lot of stuff that I wouldn't put in again.

Oh, and although the clip has no graphic aspect, I would put a language warning for anyone easily offended...


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## MJS (Dec 22, 2010)

Well, I'd have to see the guy in person to really get a feel for what he's doing, but going only on the clip alone, I wasn't that crazy about it. If you're going to strip the knife away in the fashion that he did in the beginning, I'd use the forearm, not the wrist area.

As for the initial picture that you see...well, that just goes to show just how dangerous a knife can be.  IMO, knife defense should be as simple as possible, while still being effective.  Think about that pic the next time you do knife defense and ask yourself if what you're doing is going to save yourself.  I know that I've really torn apart alot of the knife stuff that I've been taught over the years.  Amazing how a huge list of stuff can be pruned down so quick. LOL.


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## Yoshin9 (Dec 22, 2010)

If you can't run away, and you happen to get a hold of the arm then you don't want to punch him only once, punch many times until you see him stumbling and dazed before you try to disarm him. One hit is not enough.

Also keep proper distance from the knife, if you grab the hand and he is stronger you need to move yourself and not try to struggle to move his arm. Use your knees, your body, your head as weapons while you maintain your grip on his arm; if you have a grip on his arm you are much more aware as to just where that knife is than just by looking at it and judging reaction time.


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## 72ronin (Dec 22, 2010)

I think we could put up many knife vids by many peoples and start to pick them appart.

Grab the arm/dont grab the arm etc It goes on and on.
 In the end it obviously comes down to the situation itself as to what you will do, Sometimes grabbing the arm is suicide and with a different opponent/situation it may be a viable option for success. Obviously the opponent/situation plays the lead role and not that wicked technique from the latest seminar.

Vids from Escrima/Doce Pares right through to military systema all have some very ambitious techs displayed. One systema vid even has the knife pressed against the gut, the guy uses his gut to disarm!! One Philipino demo had a blade grab! etc 
Even this vid has strips, which are useless for double edged blade yeah.

To be completely honest even at where i train, one particular Sempai has some strange ideas on knife defense. The last time he took the class we did the old grab the arm from from a downward x block to wind it in a large circle and apply arm lock... All the while the attacker has simply thrust the weapon forward and stood there, magicaly imobile for the duration LOL.

Probably the best way to form your ideas on knife defense is to put yourself in the position of attacker for a moment,
Could someone simply grab your arm? Seriously when is the last time you caught someones punch, whats the success rate with that? Why the hell would you ignore the rest of the attackers body all of a sudden? 

Anyone else notice that, when training unarmed fighting we train not to get hit and to react accordingly with counter attack etc, 
Yet in many knife demo vids, They have almost complete tunnel vision concerning weapon/weapon arm. Is all the unarmed training suddenly not needed, Gee, lucky someone with a knife wont use the rest of his body all of a sudden hey, good thing they left their other arm at home LOL

Obviously controlling the knife arm is important to attempt to stop further stab/slashes etc but at what sacrafice? Catch a shot while wrestling the weapon arm and you'll certainly be stabbed.
At this point in my learning, i would say that sustained forward aggresion will get you to your goal with armed/unarmed attacker without that much technique difference.

Thoughts?


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## MJS (Dec 22, 2010)

IMO, a strip is fine, providing that a) its done against the flat of the blade and b) that its done using a part of the body that if cut, wont have serious consequences.  In other words, in this clip we saw the guy using the inside wrist area.  As I said, a better option would be to use the forearm/top of the arm.  

IMO, I think its best to get yourself off line and gain control of the weapon arm/hand.  From there, start working offensive moves.  When applicable, disarm, get away, etc.


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## 72ronin (Dec 22, 2010)

MJS said:


> IMO, a strip is fine, providing that a) its done against the flat of the blade and b) that its done using a part of the body that if cut, wont have serious consequences. In other words, in this clip we saw the guy using the inside wrist area. As I said, a better option would be to use the forearm/top of the arm.
> 
> IMO, I think its best to get yourself off line and gain control of the weapon arm/hand. From there, start working offensive moves. When applicable, disarm, get away, etc.


 
Good advice MJS, good movement with strong intent is certainly the key in my humble opinion.

In defence of the Luke Holloway demo clips the majority of his clips are quite good, and as far as i can remember normaly perform strips with the outer forearm etc.

:cheers:


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 12, 2011)

72ronin said:


> .
> 
> Probably the best way to form your ideas on knife defense is to put yourself in the position of attacker for a moment,
> Could someone simply grab your arm? Seriously when is the last time you caught someones punch, whats the success rate with that? Why the hell would you ignore the rest of the attackers body all of a sudden?
> ...


 
You worded that quite well and I agree with you 100%

Knife defense, like all self-defense, is simple but by no means easy. Understanding how to avoid being mortally wounded is not that difficult but putting it into practice under stress is.

Does anyone use the chalk knives? When a person is done and can see where they have been cut and what that would look like in a real fight can get people out of the clounds and back down to earth.


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## Sarge (Feb 28, 2011)

OH MY GOD! Really? I am pretty educated in knife stuff, and that is insane. 
When someone pulls a knife, always treat them as a 1000 year old master of knife fighting, fancy stuff does not work. It is for show. Run like hell, if that fails, get out of the way, and hit as hard and often as you can. "Gaining control of the weapon" is insane. Not gonna happen. I am far more afraid of a knife than a gun, knife don't have to reload, knifes can cut at so many angles, and then add stabbing. In the hands of someone untrained, you can be killed, in the hands of someone trained? You can be killed faster.

Sargeslide


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## K831 (Feb 28, 2011)

I think it is a bad idea to hunt for disarms /strips. That will get you cut. If they present themselves, take them, but don't "go for a disarm". Same as locks/submissions or any contact manipulation IMHO.

Regarding a knife, striping/disarming is just like passing. It's either an "oh Sh%t" no other option situation, or a "hey, here it is, no problem" situation. It shuoldn't be your first goal. Both take so much control, timing and perfect forward energy to actually do in real time real speed live blade applications that I don't find them to be very "safe".

I tend to go with the fight the attacker not the weapon phiosophy. Meaning, I don't want to get object fixation too much on the weapon or the arm/hand holding the weapon. I want to get the appropriate angle and avoid or control the weapon long enough to destroy the guy holding the weapon. A good positive check and angle will buy you that time. Some guys get a bit "tunnel vision" when it comes to the weapon hand. 

When looking at any check, parry, block, trap, pass, disarm etc with a knife, check for the attackers ability to "back cut" or "cut out" and check your forward energy (passive or soft passes or disarms, passes and disarms with non directed or lateral energy allow the attacker to press and cut you , or back cut and cut you - this seems to be a huge mistake people make, even when applying good techniques).

Hopefully I got my thoughts out clearly.


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## Sarge (Mar 1, 2011)

His close in work using the knife is good, but his disarms are sooooooo dangerous. He is using a mixture of Japanese and Fillipino techniques. 

I have never, ever seen a successful knife disarm using those type of moves, but I have seen successful ones on the street by guys who never took a lesson, just laying powerful hits to the attackers head.

In a knife fight (A HUGE MISNOMER) you are going to get cut, period, no way around it. The trick is to cut them more, and get away from thier weapon.

Sarge


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## Sarge (Mar 1, 2011)

These are excerpts from a "manual" that I give to my students. I do teach knife and stick stuff, and disarms are always a big issue.
Knife Fighting is a misnomer- *There is no such thing as a KNIFE FIGHT!*
*Knives are ambush or oh s**t weapons.*  In other words, you will rarely see them until you are cut or stabbed in an ambush. Or a knife is pulled out in a confrontation because someone is losing. The only time you see knife fights are usually in the movies, and those are highly stylized dances at best.  I dont want to say it never happens, but in the military, if you are fighting with a knife, it is because youre primary and secondary weapons are empty, or gone. On the street, if it does happen, its because I forgot my Glock.
_Yes, you will be cut_, there is no way around it. Any time a knife is brought out in a fight, someone is getting cut. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar and has never seen knives used in real life. I myself have never seen a successful knife disarm in the field or on the street using Martial Arts type disarms. Most of those techniques are very specific, and do not allow for the unknown chaos in a real situation. The only way I know of not being cut? Dont be in the situation! After that its get out of the way and hit your attacker as hard, fast and often as you can.
Knives scare me far more than guns. A gun only has so many bullets, and if you know how to disarm someone with a gun, youre safe. A knife cuts in any direction and does not have to reload, and are more concealable and everybody carries one. And by the way, *you will get cut!*
*Never, ever, under any circumstance, should you reach out toward or grab at your attacker! *If you like your fingers where they are on your hands, resist this urge.
*Watch the hand or arm, not their eyes.* In this situation, eyes can lie to you! Just because your attacker is looking at your leg doesnt mean they cant cut your arm. Also, blades move so fast it's almost impossible to follow them, so look to the things on your attacker that you can track, like arm and hand movements.
*If you can see it, what type of blade is it?* Is the knife double or single edged? What grip are they using?
*GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
Keep moving in circular directions away from the attacker, blade between you both, and keep your extremities close to your body. *DO NOT ADVANCE ON YOUR ATTACKER!*
As I stated before, I have rarely seen a successful knife disarm. Trying to take a bladed weapon away from an attacker may seem like suicide, but you may not have a choice. Many, many people have survived knife attacks.  Yes, they got cut, but they didnt allow it to stop them from fending off the attack.

I tried to put it together in a context that would make sense, hope you get it
Sarge


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## fangjian (Mar 6, 2011)

K831 said:


> I think it is a bad idea to hunt for disarms /strips. That will get you cut. If they present themselves, take them, but don't "go for a disarm". Same as locks/submissions or any contact manipulation IMHO.



This is *very* good advice.  

Also I would recommend to all of you, is to have some of your friends agree to come in to your school and be 'the attacker'.  All of my students attack like Balintawak fighters, so I know how to handle them hehehe.    It is nice to have someone come in who is 'untrained' and see how they naturally attack. The different structure/timing/etc.    It can be eye opening.


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## Archangel M (Mar 6, 2011)

If you think that there is ANY counter knife technique where you will not get cut in real life you are drinking the martial arts fantasy kool-aide IMO. If you think that you will be able to decide to choose between the flat of the blade and the edge in a real fight...welllllll.


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## elwin (Mar 10, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> I am the first to admit I am not experienced in RBSD or knife fighting.
> But when I see someone pushing a knife out of someones hand with the inside of his wrist (the beginning of the video) it makes me wonder if the other guy has any clue at all.
> 
> *EDIT: Btw, this clip is NOT graphic at all. The picture in the preview is just a sensationalist way of getting attention.*
> ...


 
What that move was where he twist the guy's wrist, I don't know. Maybe if you turn his arm all the way round it will make him lose the knife, but like that will get you in trouble. Remember, your attacker will keep on attacking once he started. He is not stopping for you to grab his arm and then twist it. 

When you are being attacked by a knife, your attacker's entire focus of attack *is* the knife. If you manage to redirect the weapon, while at the same time over-throwing his attack with a forceful attack of your own on him, your chances of disabling the attack and walking away alive will be so much greater. 

As for the rest of the video, some strikes may be effective, but some techniques are way too choreographed for my liking. Especially the part where he demonstrates slicing the guy's arms while he punches you is too movie like. In real life you don't want to display how fast you are while toying with your attacker. You want to handle the situation quickly and walk away safely. That means redirecting his strikes and your body, then striking vital areas to completely disable him. His arms are not vital areas, but his head, neck, chest, stomach/or plexus, kidneys etc is.  

You are in that situation in the first place because your life is at stake. That means hurting your attacker in such a way that he can't hurt you. That means even killing him before he kills you. 

Every single situation out there is different. You cant choreograph steps of block and attack. You must train effective striking and movement that will be effective regardless of how he attacks. Real life violence is chaotic and fast. Your only purpose must be to destroy your attacker with the minimum movement and effort.


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## elwin (Mar 10, 2011)

72ronin said:


> I think we could put up many knife vids by many peoples and start to pick them appart.
> 
> Grab the arm/dont grab the arm etc It goes on and on.
> In the end it obviously comes down to the situation itself as to what you will do, Sometimes grabbing the arm is suicide and with a different opponent/situation it may be a viable option for success. Obviously the opponent/situation plays the lead role and not that wicked technique from the latest seminar.


 
I agree, every situation is different and needs to be handled differently. But, the scenario stays the same. You are being attacked by a guy with a knife and you need to survive this, which means you need to take control of the situation by turning the tables on him. That does not mean getting the knife in your possesion OR making him drop the knife, it means hurting your opponent so that he can't use the knife, or anything else for that matter to hurt you. 

Unfortunately, you will get cut during such a situation. You don't need to grab his arm or wrist, you just need to redirect the weapon which will put him off for a second. During that second or two, your focus must be on striking him with utmost force. A powerful strike to his adam's apple, then a follow-up strike to his nose to drive it into the base of the brain, then a forceful thrust to the knee to break it, is sure to make him drop the weapon and give you time to escape.


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