# TKD and Everyone Else



## ellies (May 19, 2008)

Isn't it funny how there is such criticism and cynicism against TKD?  I mean how so many folks out there will never train in TKD, but they "know everything about it?:hb:


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## Kacey (May 19, 2008)

ellies said:


> Isn't it funny how there is such criticism and cynicism against TKD?  I mean how so many folks out there will never train in TKD, but they "know everything about it?:hb:



You're preaching to the choir, ellies!


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## terryl965 (May 19, 2008)

ellies said:


> Isn't it funny how there is such criticism and cynicism against TKD? I mean how so many folks out there will never train in TKD, but they "know everything about it?:hb:


Like Kacey has said you are peaching to the choir and also the next couple of churches over as well.


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## arnisador (May 19, 2008)

ellies said:


> Isn't it funny how there is such criticism and cynicism against TKD?



It's the most popular art in the States--that's going to get it some criticism right there!


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## SageGhost83 (May 19, 2008)

The fact that people care enough about it to bash it so much is a sure sign that it is a very good style. Every major style goes through this - Karate had its moments (and arguably still does), JKD drew the ire of many a classical purist, and even MMA and BJJ have detractors by the boatload. You see, the reason why people go out of their way to insult TKD, or any style for that matter, is because they are insecure in their own art and deep down inside they feel like they must come over to another art, but they live in denial and react by insulting. It happens across the board, even Taekwondoin engage in this behavior towards other styles (*cough* Muay Thai *cough* *cough*). Don't worry about what "everybody else" says about your style. The only thing that matters is what you say about your style. If you are truly secure in what you do, then you won't care about what everyone else is doing, well, at least on that one level - you kinda have to keep an eye on them just in case you get to spar with them :wink2:. TKD and Everyone Else? You could just as easily substitue TKD for any style and the logic would still hold true. TKD just happens to be one of the most popular styles today so its criticisms will stick out far more than the criticisms of the other styles. Trust me - I have done Shotokan for 4 years and to this day people still tell me how impractical it is and how stiff and rigid it is. The funny thing is that they have never trained in it themselves, and if they had trained in it then they would realize that the stiffness is only at the beginner level and that the style loosens up at the higher levels.


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## Steel Tiger (May 20, 2008)

ellies said:


> Isn't it funny how there is such criticism and cynicism against TKD? I mean how so many folks out there will never train in TKD, but they "know everything about it?:hb:


I am not a TKD person but I know exactly how you feel.  I practice bagua, a kind of 'kung fu' and we have been through all the negativity just like TKD.  I feel your pain.


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## exile (May 20, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> *You see, the reason why people go out of their way to insult TKD, or any style for that matter, is because they are insecure in their own art and deep down inside they feel like they must come over to another art, but they live in denial and react by insulting....If you are truly secure in what you do, then you won't care about what everyone else is doing,* well, at least on that one level - you kinda have to keep an eye on them just in case you get to spar with them :wink2:. TKD and Everyone Else? You could just as easily substitue TKD for any style and the logic would still hold true. TKD just happens to be one of the most popular styles today so its criticisms will stick out far more than the criticisms of the other styles. Trust me - I have done Shotokan for 4 years and to this day people still tell me how impractical it is and how stiff and rigid it is. The funny thing is that they have never trained in it themselves, and if they had trained in it then they would realize that the stiffness is only at the beginner level and that the style loosens up at the higher levels.



You got it in one, SG. I'd rep you for that, if you weren't still on my current cycle. This is something I've felt for years&#8212;people who knock other MA styles do so because at some level they don't know if they could hold their own in a down-and-dirty street confrontation with a confident attacker. And the reason for _that_, of course, is because most people don't train for such confrontations, so regardless of the style, they're going to be insecure&#8212;because the style isn't the crucial part, it's the stress-testing under realistic conditions, over a long period of time, that lets you turn the combat potential of the system into an  immediately usable skill. Most folks don't get that kind of training in their MA schools and don't know how to go about organizing it themselves&#8212;and no wonder; it's a very difficult thing to do. Much easier to bash the other guy's art, alas.


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## Andy Moynihan (May 20, 2008)

It's the Olympics that have quote-unquote "ruined" it. If it went back to the way it used to be taught before a lot of schools adopted the Olympic/competition rules it would go back to being a perfectly good system( ask the ROK Marines).


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## Twin Fist (May 20, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> You see, the reason why people go out of their way to insult TKD, or any style for that matter, is because they are insecure in their own art and deep down inside they feel like they must come over to another art, but they live in denial and react by insulting.



not always

I despise MMA and a gag everytime i hear "BJJ"

why?

not because I am insecure in my arts

i shudder when i hear MMA or BJJ because i think it is a very FLAWED system for self defense, yet when you try to point that out, people invariably try to shove the UFC (a flawed and stacked contest from the 1st one till now) in your face. It gets old. But then, i dont go out of my way to trash them either. So maybe i dont fit what you were talking about.


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## exile (May 20, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> But then, i dont go out of my way to trash them either. So maybe i dont fit what you were talking about.



I don't want to put words in SG's mouth, but I suspect he was talking about people whose natural home is The Site Which Must Not Be Named, where the favorite activity seems to be pissing on every single traditional MA in turn. Voldesite peopleand there are lots of them, judging by what you see on the netseem to feel the need to channel all of their life's frustrations into cheap sarcasm, macho strutting and 24/7 hostility to most of the MA community. I think SG had people like that in mind, rather than anyone here...


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## SageGhost83 (May 20, 2008)

exile said:


> I think SG had people like that in mind, rather than anyone here...


 
Bingo! Something about angry bovines are something :lol:. Twin Fist, I see what you are saying, though. The best thing to do is to not worry about it or let it get under your skin. The truth of the matter will hold true over time, no need to try to point it out to them if they don't want to listen. Besides, you are not their teacher and it is not your responsibility to get through to them. All that you can do is offer your opinion on the matter and they either take it or leave it. We have all had to deal with the "UFC Pwns All Crowd" - usually it is the ones who don't participate in MMA, BJJ, or UFC who shove it in your face because they are ignorant and they feel insecure next to you because they can't perform the feats that you can perform. It all comes back to insecurity. Most (definitely not all) of the people who actually participate in MMA, BJJ, or UFC respect *all* arts and would rather focus on exploring different styles to add to their own game. The fact that you don't go out of your way to trash them while they don't show the same regard for you speaks highly of your own character :asian:. Don't worry about what they say - what you are doing works for you and that is all that really matters.


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## YoungMan (May 20, 2008)

Unfortunately, the most common demonstrations of Taekwondo tend also to be the worst examples:

8 year old black belts
Multicolored uniforms
XMA and Hollywood flash masquerading as Taekwondo
Instructors who use Taekwondo as a way to profit and make money

Keep in mind, those examples do not define Taekwondo, they are what people see. Real Taekwondo is not flashy. It's basics done over and over when no one is around, basic kicking, forms, drills to increase power, and many hours of self practice and helping students. I can't count how many hours I've spent hitting the bag or practicing forms or basics when nobody was around to watch-which is the way I like it. Traditional Taekwondo practice is done in solitude, much like the tiger that symbolizes Korea.
But that doesn't draw public interest, earn compliments, or sign contracts. Therefore, it doesn't get much attention.


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## Xue Sheng (May 20, 2008)

ellies said:


> Isn't it funny how there is such criticism and cynicism against TKD? I mean how so many folks out there will never train in TKD, but they "know everything about it?:hb:


 
I use to train TKD... Now I train Taijiquan

Train taiji for a bit and then we can talk about criticism and cynicism :uhyeah:


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## SageGhost83 (May 20, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Unfortunately, the most common demonstrations of Taekwondo tend also to be the worst examples:
> 
> 8 year old black belts
> Multicolored uniforms
> ...


 
Exactly! Most TKD that the public sees is the flashy stuff that will get people interested in doing the art, and most schools cater to this type of misconception through their own training to keep people interested in their art. Don't even get me started on the 8 year old blackbelts - that alone is responsible for a large swath of the negative pub that TKD receives. However, it makes the soccer moms happy and keeps the money flowing into the school, so it probably won't be going away anytime soon. *sigh* if only Traditional Taekwondo schools were far more prevelant, or least if there was far more balance between sport and traditional schools...


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## exile (May 20, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> Most TKD that the public sees is the flashy stuff that will get people interested in doing the art, and most schools cater to this type of misconception through their own training to keep people interested in their art. Don't even get me started on the 8 year old blackbelts - that alone is responsible for a large swath of the negative pub that TKD receives. However, it makes the soccer moms happy and keeps the money flowing into the school, so *it probably won't be going away anytime soon*. *sigh* if only Traditional Taekwondo schools were far more prevelant, or least if there was far more balance between sport and traditional schools...



Not _extremely_ soon, but I see the handwriting all over the wall in a number of different areas. All of the recent work on combat applications of TKD forms; the incipient formation of new TKD orgs devoted to realistic TKD training (as per Stuart A's thread/announcement), and the inclusion of TKD within Iain Abernethy's bunkai-jutsu network, devoted to hard-edged SD analysis and reality-based training, are all signs of a major change in the wind... as are our own conversations here on MT. Think about it: can we be the only ones who are on this particular page so far as TKD goes? I think there's reason to be very hopeful that the near future is going to see a revival of 'old-school' TKD (and an accompany major split within the organization structure of the art, inevitably, as those of us who want TKD to be a practical fighting skill wind up going our own way...)


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## SageGhost83 (May 20, 2008)

exile said:


> Not _extremely_ soon, but I see the handwriting all over the wall in a number of different areas. All of the recent work on combat applications of TKD forms; the incipient formation of new TKD orgs devoted to realistic TKD training (as per Stuart A's thread/announcement), and the inclusion of TKD within Iain Abernethy's bunkai-jutsu network, devoted to hard-edged SD analysis and reality-based training, are all signs of a major change in the wind... as are our own conversations here on MT. Think about it: can we be the only ones who are on this particular page so far as TKD goes? I think there's reason to be very hopeful that the near future is going to see a revival of 'old-school' TKD (and an accompany major split within the organization structure of the art, inevitably, as those of us who want TKD to be a practical fighting skill wind up going our own way...)


 
*Sigh* I hope that you are right, Exile. I was being cynical in the other post, but I hope that things work out in a way that allows us to put this "age" of Mcdojang TKD behind us and look back on it as an aberration in light of realistic TKD training. It may mean less schools because a lot of the elements that give TKD such an outrageous image will stop training in it because it is no longer flashy or cool, but hey, TKD could surely use quality over quantity at this point, and I wouldn't mind seeing one less TKD school on the street corner if it means that the overall quality of TKD instruction will improve. We will always have some Mcdojangs out there, every style does, but hopefully there will be far less when the paradigm completes its shift. I really love what Stuart Anslow is doing with his work, and in my humble opinion, I think that it represents one of the new, more positive developments within the TKD community.


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## StuartA (May 20, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> Exactly! Most TKD that the public sees is the flashy stuff that will get people interested in doing the art, and most schools cater to this type of misconception through their own training to keep people interested in their art. Don't even get me started on the 8 year old blackbelts - that alone is responsible for a large swath of the negative pub that TKD receives. However, it makes the soccer moms happy and keeps the money flowing into the school, so it probably won't be going away anytime soon. *sigh* if only Traditional Taekwondo schools were far more prevelant, or least if there was far more balance between sport and traditional schools...


 
I hate the detractors as much as anyone else, not because they critisise our art, but because they cannot difieniate between what IS Taekwon-do and what is a club/org making TKD easier/funkier/nicer whatever and thus watering it down.. but... Taekwon-do is its own worst enemy in this respect.

If 49 out of 50 clubs do what the previous posts says (multicolored doboks, catering for soccer mums, giving out black belts to 8year olds etc.) and 1 doesnt... the 1 is lost in the sea of dispare and the tiny little voice saying "no no no" is rarely heard above the rumble of porches and students.

People see what they see and if the TKD world only shows them that sort of stuff, that becomes the definition of what TKD is. Its not MY TKD, but it IS TKD. Ghandi said it right, _you have to be the change you want to see in the world._

Taekwon-do lost its way (as a collective) many years ago and has been treading that path ever since, I hate being lumped into that pile but I do TKD too, so I am. It wasnt the Olympics, it was the almight dollar, the worlds most popular martial art became a money spinner because of its popularity... a victim of its own success really!

Stuart


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## Steel Tiger (May 20, 2008)

StuartA said:


> I hate the detractors as much as anyone else, not because they critisise our art, but because they cannot difieniate between what IS Taekwon-do and what is a club/org making TKD easier/funkier/nicer whatever and thus watering it down.. but... Taekwon-do is its own worst enemy in this respect.
> 
> If 49 out of 50 clubs do what the previous posts says (multicolored doboks, catering for soccer mums, giving out black belts to 8year olds etc.) and 1 doesnt... the 1 is lost in the sea of dispare and the tiny little voice saying "no no no" is rarely heard above the rumble of porches and students.
> 
> ...


 
I think you have bullseyed the greatest problem.  The pursuit of money has brought TKD to commit multi-coloured dobok, soccer mum suicide.  It cannot persist as it is, sooner or later something is going to happen that pushes the powers that be to make some hard decisions.


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## jim777 (May 20, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I use to train TKD... Now I train Taijiquan
> 
> Train taiji for a bit and then we can talk about criticism and cynicism :uhyeah:


 
I have to admit you nailed that one on the head. In a battle of most abused Taiji beats TKD. How can you POSSIBLY defend yourself moving 0.0008 miles an hour?  :lol:


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## tellner (May 20, 2008)

Some small part is jealousy. Most martial arts do have not enjoyed the wide popularity of Tae Kwon Do. And most of us can only dream at what they might have done had a government made our arts' promotion a national priority. A bigger part is that Tae Kwon Do has become the most prominent martial art out there. If you're more visible you get more attention both good and bad.

A large part is the mistrust of what TKD did to get there. And in that we see our own sins reflected. It's beyond doubt that Tae Kwon Do's official history is a tissue of self-serving lies. We've beaten that horse until the last fat maggot chewing on the corpse was squashed flat. The sport has come to dominate the entire martial art. Popularity and the creation of a mass-market product were valued above all. Dissent was crushed even among the founders in order to create one unified voice. The system moved on to cheap gimmicks like red, white and blue uniforms, six year olds with instructor rankings, infinite testing, junior-grade brainwashing, gymnastics passed off as martial arts and a dozen other things.

And do you know what? Almost all martial arts organizations would have given their left gonad and thrown their aging grandparents off the sled if they thought they could get the same results. What we are secretly ashamed of in ourselves we condem most loudly in others. As the old limerick goes:



> She was raised in a bleak institution
> And grew up in great destitution.
> She married, the *****
> A man old and rich
> And roundly condemns prostitution


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## exile (May 20, 2008)

tellner said:


> Almost all martial arts organizations would have given their left gonad and thrown their aging grandparents off the sled if they thought they could get the same results. What we are secretly ashamed of in ourselves we condem most loudly in others.



_Yes_, by gad. That has the ring of truth most certain.


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## jks9199 (May 20, 2008)

exile said:


> _Yes_, by gad. That has the ring of truth most certain.


I gotta agree...

I think that there is definitely a certain amount of sour grapes in putting down TKD -- and in fact, in putting down "commercial martial arts" in general.  Most of us do martial arts 'cause it's something we love... wouldn't we love to make our living at it?


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## StuartA (May 20, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Most of us do martial arts 'cause it's something we love... wouldn't we love to make our living at it?


 
You dont have to sell it down the river in a pretty boat to make a living out of it. Im a full time instructor and though Im never gonna be rich I make a living, as do many others. Not once have I ever entertained the notion of a TKD Birthday Party at my dojang! 

Those guys doing that, arnt making a living, they are making a killing, at the arts & the students expense, both financially and morally!


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## terryl965 (May 20, 2008)

StuartA said:


> You dont have to sell it down the river in a pretty boat to make a living out of it. Im a full time instructor and though Im never gonna be rich I make a living, as do many others. Not once have I ever entertained the notion of a TKD Birthday Party at my dojang!
> 
> Those guys doing that, arnt making a living, they are making a killing, at the arts & the students expense, both financially and morally!


 
That is so true, around my neck of the woods every tom dick and harry has so many clubs and raking in the dough.


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## Steel Tiger (May 20, 2008)

StuartA said:


> You dont have to sell it down the river in a pretty boat to make a living out of it. Im a full time instructor and though Im never gonna be rich I make a living, as do many others. Not once have I ever entertained the notion of a TKD Birthday Party at my dojang!
> 
> Those guys doing that, arnt making a living, they are making a killing, at the arts & the students expense, both financially and morally!


 
A TKD birthday party!!!  :jaw-dropping:

I'm impressed someone can have gone so far in pursuit of the dollar as to disrespect their place of training like this.

But I'm not really one to talk.  The gongfu world is full of similar things.  I don't think anyone in TKD has ever passed off operatic training as a martial art, have they?


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## jks9199 (May 20, 2008)

StuartA said:


> You dont have to sell it down the river in a pretty boat to make a living out of it. Im a full time instructor and though Im never gonna be rich I make a living, as do many others. Not once have I ever entertained the notion of a TKD Birthday Party at my dojang!
> 
> Those guys doing that, arnt making a living, they are making a killing, at the arts & the students expense, both financially and morally!



Y'know... I probably oughta stop while I'm behind...:lol: but I didn't say and have never said that commercialism automatically equals some form of selling out.  In fact, I was agreeing with and expanding on Tellner's point that some of the way people talk down TKD is a result of jealousy!



Steel Tiger said:


> A TKD birthday party!!!  :jaw-dropping:
> 
> I'm impressed someone can have gone so far in pursuit of the dollar as to disrespect their place of training like this.
> 
> But I'm not really one to talk.  The gongfu world is full of similar things.  I don't think anyone in TKD has ever passed off operatic training as a martial art, have they?



Yes, they happen.  For some unknown amount of dollars, you too can have a private party for your kid in some dojos/dojangs...  I don't know exactly what they're doing... I figure some MA-oriented games and maybe a practice session before the cake & ice cream.


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## Errant108 (May 21, 2008)

I'm going to disagree and actually say that TKD deserves the majority of the criticism that it gets.

We have a completely bull&#46629; history which is essentially a completely fabricated appeal to a non-existing authority...

We practically invented the term McDojo, with a majority of schools serving as little more a jungle gyms aimed at scamming parents out of money, while pretending to teach their brats how to defend themselves...

We have sparring that amounts to games of tag, or center around rulesets that have nothing to do with developing actual combative ability...

We have blatant corruption at the highest levels of the art, rather than examples to follow.

TKD deserves all of the criticism it gets, and those who deny it are essentially sticking their heads in the sand.

I say all this as a former TKD instructor, and Olympic rules competitor.


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## terryl965 (May 21, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> I'm going to disagree and actually say that TKD deserves the majority of the criticism that it gets.
> 
> We have a completely bull&#46629; history which is essentially a completely fabricated appeal to a non-existing authority...
> 
> ...


 

Errant for the most part you are true TKD has been given a chance to grow and we-they-us have blown it. But with thatsaid there are still schools that try to do the right thing by TKD and we are just overwelmed by so many people trying to fleece the flock. I myself see a new way of Traditional TKD and it will be here soon enough and it will back the combat essence to the art.

I know I live in a dream world but one can see the writing on the wall.


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## Errant108 (May 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> But with thatsaid there are still schools that try to do the right thing by TKD and we are just overwelmed by so many people trying to fleece the flock. I myself see a new way of Traditional TKD and it will be here soon enough and it will back the combat essence to the art.
> 
> I know I live in a dream world but one can see the writing on the wall.




Everyone's always will to say "my school's not like that".  If that's the case, why does the majority opinion exist?

Until the change is visible to the vast majority of the martial arts world, it's not really going to matter.  The majority opinion of TKD will be the accurate one, and the few outlying schools that differ will be largely irrelevant.


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## terryl965 (May 21, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> Everyone's always will to say "my school's not like that". If that's the case, why does the majority opinion exist?
> 
> Until the change is visible to the vast majority of the martial arts world, it's not really going to matter. The majority opinion of TKD will be the accurate one, and the few outlying schools that differ will be largely irrelevant.


 

I would have to dis-agree, change can happen with a few and those few will always be seperated even in most circles


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## StuartA (May 21, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> I'm going to disagree and actually say that TKD deserves the majority of the criticism that it gets.


Hello my friend.. I hope all is well with you.

You & I, I feel, are actually in agreement. The key word here is _majority_, and the missing words are of _TKD schools_.

A school of TKd isnt TKD its a school that professes to teaching it.. if that teaching is incorrect or lacking, it doesnt matter to the general public, because tehy dont know.

However, you, I and a fair few others know different!

Stuart


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## theletch1 (May 21, 2008)

StuartA said:


> Hello my friend.. I hope all is well with you.
> 
> You & I, I feel, are actually in agreement. The key word here is _majority_, and the missing words are of _TKD schools_.
> 
> ...


Before joining up here at MT I was one of the general public that had a very dim view of TKD.  After years of posting and interacting with TKD practitioners here I've come to understand what it is that you're talking about in the section of your post that I bolded.  I've come to realize over time that every art is like that, though.  I'm an aikido-ka and my art gets a lot of flack for being too soft or not effective for SD.  The same argument that you use for TKD fits for aikido...and most other arts for that matter.  Good post.


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## StuartA (May 21, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Before joining up here at MT I was one of the general public that had a very dim view of TKD. After years of posting and interacting with TKD practitioners here I've come to understand what it is that you're talking about in the section of your post that I bolded. I've come to realize over time that every art is like that, though. I'm an aikido-ka and my art gets a lot of flack for being too soft or not effective for SD. The same argument that you use for TKD fits for aikido...and most other arts for that matter. Good post.


 
Aikido eh! Tell that to the Tokyo police (Angry White Pyjamas anyone). Most arts are missunderstood by those who havnt researched them to a decent degree... even those that do them.

Unfortunatly it is human nature to judge a book by its cover (Ive experieneced this literally lol).. sadly, TKD has a lot more books, with a lot more dodgy covers whose content is just as bad.

People see what they want to see or what they first stumble upon, unfortunatly, as I said in a previous post, TKD offers much more of _'what is not so good about TKD' _ to the public (which includes other MA) and thus it (and us) gets tarnished as such.

So is the way of things!

Stuart


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## FieldDiscipline (May 23, 2008)

Well said Stuart.


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## tellner (May 23, 2008)

One of the problems is that as a relatively new martial art "Real TKD" is a moving target. 

Fifty years ago "Real TKD" was Japanese Karate with a sprinkling of Chinese martial arts. Sometimes it was done by people in martial arts schools. Sometimes it was done by soldiers. Then it was like Karate but with high kicking and de-emphasized punching to differentiate it from the Japanese product. Then it was a very specific kicking game done as an Olympic sport and a form of unlicensed daycare for children. Then it was a serious street-effective martial art with punching, kicking, grappling, weapons defense and everything else that a person could want. At various times throughout it was a propaganda arm of the Korean government designed to promote the idea of Korean supremacy and manliness to a world which considered them third or at best second rate.

It all depends on who you ask and what they want TKD to be. Since what succeeds survives the kid's activity and exclusive sport lead the pack. That's where the money and the cameras are. So that's what most Tae Kwon Do is at the moment. 

Well, Korea is a much richer country and more respected on the world stage. So the government doesn't need to tell as many stories about the ROK Marines and the Unmatched Studliness of The New Korea. MMA is more exciting and looks less contrived. And there's always the homoerotic appeal of muscular men in top physical shape beating the crap out of each other while wearing Speedos, so the sports angle is on the wane 

Tae Kwon Do will just have to reinvent itself. This will mean a splintering and recombining of organizations and some serious changes in curriculum as instructors and students figure out what they are looking for and how to achieve it. There will be several new versions of "Real TKD" each absolutely convinced that it is the only True Art. 

This will make it just the same as every other martial art in just about every time and place.


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## tellner (May 23, 2008)

StuartA said:


> Aikido eh! Tell that to the Tokyo police (Angry White Pyjamas anyone). Most arts are missunderstood by those who havnt researched them to a decent degree... even those that do them.



It was a good book and offered some serious insights into Aikido and the people who do it. The thing to remember is that a martial art is a vehicle for a lot of things. The Uchi Deshi program the author joined worked for the police trainees. But it was more the training method than the curriculum. They got used to being injured and not giving a damn. They habitually trained to exhaustion and structural failure. They learned to obey orders unquestioningly and unhesitatingly. They learned to take abuse stoically. The instructors created a _group_ identity and feelings of superiority to the common herd while beating certain sorts of _personal_ identity out of them. In other words, it was a lot like WWII era Japanese military training.

They could have been learning Aikido or Shooto or Taiko drumming or Needlepoint under that regime. It would have had exactly the same effect.

It's just like TKD. The Fluffy Bunny variety of Aikido, the extreme nationalism heavy Omoto-kyo cultish Aikido, the police version, the self defense oriented version and the Confucian advance-through-each-level version are all Aikido and even represent various stages of the founder's personal development. Which one is real? That's up to the school and the individual practitioner. But if one group shouts loudest and makes it the normal normative version that will be the "Real" Aikido or Tae Kwon Do.


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## SageGhost83 (May 23, 2008)

tellner said:


> There will be several new versions of "Real TKD" each absolutely convinced that it is the only True Art.


 
Which is why I think that it is inevitable that, at some point, TKD is going to return to the Kwan era or a reasonable facsimile thereof. I also think that it will be for the better.


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## Xue Sheng (May 23, 2008)

jim777 said:


> I have to admit you nailed that one on the head. In a battle of most abused Taiji beats TKD. How can you POSSIBLY defend yourself moving 0.0008 miles an hour? :lol:


 
This is EXACTLY what I LIKE people fo believe :EG:


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## StuartA (May 23, 2008)

tellner said:


> There will be several new versions of "Real TKD" each absolutely convinced that it is the only True Art.


 
Isnt that what the three ITFs say now!!!

Personally, I dont care whose is the realist.. as long as it works, I leave the one true art to the monks!

Stuart


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## neoinarien (May 25, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> The fact that people care enough about it to bash it so much is a sure sign that it is a very good style. Every major style goes through this - Karate had its moments (and arguably still does), JKD drew the ire of many a classical purist, and even MMA and BJJ have detractors by the boatload. You see, the reason why people go out of their way to insult TKD, or any style for that matter, is because they are insecure in their own art and deep down inside they feel like they must come over to another art, but they live in denial and react by insulting. It happens across the board, even Taekwondoin engage in this behavior towards other styles (*cough* Muay Thai *cough* *cough*). Don't worry about what "everybody else" says about your style. The only thing that matters is what you say about your style. If you are truly secure in what you do, then you won't care about what everyone else is doing, well, at least on that one level - you kinda have to keep an eye on them just in case you get to spar with them :wink2:. TKD and Everyone Else? You could just as easily substitue TKD for any style and the logic would still hold true. TKD just happens to be one of the most popular styles today so its criticisms will stick out far more than the criticisms of the other styles. Trust me - I have done Shotokan for 4 years and to this day people still tell me how impractical it is and how stiff and rigid it is. The funny thing is that they have never trained in it themselves, and if they had trained in it then they would realize that the stiffness is only at the beginner level and that the style loosens up at the higher levels.




Sounds like relativism.

That's walking down a dangerous road to say that, 'if you critique my style you must be insecure in your own.'


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## Tez3 (May 25, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> not always
> 
> I despise MMA and a gag everytime i hear "BJJ"
> 
> ...


 
Why on earth do you think MMA is for self defence? it's not, it's a sport. UFC? it's only one business, one promotion among many, it's not MMA per se.


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## SageGhost83 (May 25, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> Sounds like relativism.
> 
> That's walking down a dangerous road to say that, 'if you critique my style you must be insecure in your own.'


 
Not exactly. It is the fact that most people who 'critique' a style are just bashing it because they either can't do it themselves or they have an incomplete view of it because they don't practice it themselves or they haven't been training in it enough to truly understand it. If they were giving an honest critique of the style then they would see that it is really no better or no worse than any other style and that it comes down to how you, the individual, utilizes it. So the insecurity does not come from the critique, it comes from the propensity of someone to continuously criticize and/or mock another style when they don't practice that style and/or they practice another style. Exactly what business is it of theirs concerning what style you or I practice or why we practice it? They should have something better to do than to just sit around and trash someone else's style, and if they truly were satisfied with their own style and didn't feel threatened in some way, shape or form, then they would focus on their own style and not worry about what others are doing or why they are doing it. Most of the so-called 'critiques' come from people who don't even practice or have never even practiced the style that they are so quick to trash.


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## tellner (May 25, 2008)

Neo, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Or if you want to get biblical some carpenter from Nazareth said something a couple thousand years ago about beams and splinters.

Almost all of your posts have been about how fake and "rigged" and artificial MMA is. MMA is very upfront about the fact that it is a sport. It's a rough, athletic, demanding sport. It's got fewer restrictions than any combat sport I'm familiar with in the developed world. To succeed at it you have to be able to deal with any range from ground grappling to clinching to kickboxing against a wide variety of the body's natural weapons. It makes no bones about the fact that it is a sport with safety rules, but it offers more effective self defense skills than almost all of the "traditional", "street fighting", "deadly", "warrior" so-to-speak martial arts out there.

_*You*_ do a sport that is very consciously and specifically rigged to make sure that only people from a very limited background (WTF TKD as prescribed by the Korean government) can compete successfully. Only high kicks to the head and the big black dots on the chest protector. No grabbing or grappling. No effective punching. No clinching. No knees. No elbows. No ground work of any sort. The entire back of the body doesnt' exist - in fact I used to have a video where He Il Cho "Man of Contrasts" spent a lot of time telling the viewer to turn around and show his back if he got in trouble because it was off target. And so on. And you complain about how MMA isn't "realistic" and has too many rules.

The most "traditional" versions are Japanese Karate and a little bit of Chinese martial arts all with the serial numbers filed off and a big Korean flag pasted on top. And even they are deficient in these skills. The more knowledgeable people here spend a lot of time reverse engineering forms to try and find a glimmer of grappling, the faintest whiff of how to defend against weapons and echoes of how close quarters work might have been done. If they figure it out it's almost always because they've seen similar things in other arts and can draw a genealogical connection between the two.

TKD is in its decline as the premier combat sport. Before TKD it was Karate, Boxing, Judo or Wrestling. Today it's MMA. A generation from now it will be something else. That's the way the world works. But your hypocrisy on the subject and your willingness to cut your own sport infinite slack while picking at the tiniest perceived flaws in the competition is unworthy and unconvincing.


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## Kacey (May 25, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> Everyone's always will to say "my school's not like that".  If that's the case, why does the majority opinion exist?



Because the schools that _are_ like that are big, flashy, pay for a lot of advertising, and garner a reputation that their quality deserves - and as with many other topics, many people enjoy talking about _those people_, the ones who _make us look bad_ - and like it or not, news is generally about the *bad *things, not the *good* ones, as well as being about things that are different from usual; that's why gossip is a favorite past time for so many people.



Errant108 said:


> Until the change is visible to the vast majority of the martial arts world, it's not really going to matter.  The majority opinion of TKD will be the accurate one, and the few outlying schools that differ will be largely irrelevant.



I agree.  But like anything else, it's the bad apples that get all the press, because that's a better story... whether it's representative of the majority or not - and often _because_ it's not; it's the minority events that are "news".


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## terryl965 (May 25, 2008)

Kacey you are right on, Thank you for that post.


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## Steel Tiger (May 25, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Because the schools that _are_ like that are big, flashy, pay for a lot of advertising, and garner a reputation that their quality deserves - and as with many other topics, many people enjoy talking about _those people_, the ones who _make us look bad_ - and like it or not, news is generally about the *bad *things, not the *good* ones, as well as being about things that are different from usual; that's why gossip is a favorite past time for so many people.
> 
> 
> I agree. But like anything else, it's the bad apples that get all the press, because that's a better story... whether it's representative of the majority or not - and often _because_ it's not; it's the minority events that are "news".


 
The situation is not helped by the fact that *bad is easy*.  You don't have to do things right, you don't have to remember anything, you can make it up if you need it.  The list goes on.  And, of course, people do things the way they are taught so the situation perpetuates itself.


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## PHElwood (May 25, 2008)

ellies said:


> Isn't it funny how there is such criticism and cynicism against TKD? I mean how so many folks out there will never train in TKD, but they "know everything about it?:hb:


 
Hi ellies,
It's the same with the style of tai chi that I'm studying. Others on this forum who don't do the same style seem to be completely cynical about the organization where I take classes... and very critical too- putting down both the form and the instructors (and I've been with taking classes long enough to have formed my own opinion that this is good organization with instructors I respect) So I'm a little disappointed with some of the comments. But the forum I tried before (martial arts forum on Google) was much worse. At least, from what I've read so far on the MA forum, most members here are civil, and many have been very welcoming. So I guess I'll just try not to pay attention to the ones who seem to have their own ax to grind. 

Regards, LPE


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## neoinarien (May 26, 2008)

tellner said:


> Neo, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Or if you want to get biblical some carpenter from Nazareth said something a couple thousand years ago about beams and splinters.
> 
> Almost all of your posts have been about how fake and "rigged" and artificial MMA is. MMA is very upfront about the fact that it is a sport. It's a rough, athletic, demanding sport. It's got fewer restrictions than any combat sport I'm familiar with in the developed world. To succeed at it you have to be able to deal with any range from ground grappling to clinching to kickboxing against a wide variety of the body's natural weapons. It makes no bones about the fact that it is a sport with safety rules, but it offers more effective self defense skills than almost all of the "traditional", "street fighting", "deadly", "warrior" so-to-speak martial arts out there.
> 
> ...



Tellner, 

Wow, that's a lot of accusations all of which are patently false.

Can you point to a single place where I, "cut [my] sport infinite slack"?

No. Because I don't cut TKD slack. I think it's rather incomplete and lacking in a number of ways, many of which are important. 

Maybe you should be more careful before posting with such vitriol.


Also, "Almost all of your posts have been about how fake and "rigged" and artificial MMA is." That simply is not true. I simply pointed out that MMA has a lot of restrictive rules and many people have the false perception that MMA is 'anything goes' and you can reference MMA to 'prove' what systems work, etc. I'm sorry if you missed this delicate, though obvious point that I repeated numerous times throughout.


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## neoinarien (May 26, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> Not exactly. It is the fact that most people who 'critique' a style are just bashing it because they either can't do it themselves or they have an incomplete view of it because they don't practice it themselves or they haven't been training in it enough to truly understand it. If they were giving an honest critique of the style then they would see that it is really no better or no worse than any other style and that it comes down to how you, the individual, utilizes it. So the insecurity does not come from the critique, it comes from the propensity of someone to continuously criticize and/or mock another style when they don't practice that style and/or they practice another style.



Well, I certainly agree with you SageGhost83 that it may often be the case in _practice_ though certainly it is not a uniform rule (and I think you'd agree with that).

As a brief example, I rip on TKD for a number of things although I used to practice it for a decade. Also, I think it would be fair (although I have never boxed) to objectively say that boxing is an incomplete art when it comes to addressing all aspects of self defense (yes, I know, boxing is a sport not a self defense art specifically... though I'm sure someone will rip me for saying that anyways). Nonetheless, despite boxing is more of a sport it is still a valid criticism. I don't see the sense of, nor am I saying that you did/are-doing it because I don't think you are, making ad hominem attacks (see tellner) on an individual rather than dealing with the arguments made prima facie.


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## SageGhost83 (May 26, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> Well, I agree that it may often be the case in _practice_ though certainly it is not a uniform rule.
> 
> As a brief example, I rip on TKD for a number of things although I used to practice it for a decade. Also, I think it would be fair (although I have never boxed) to objectively say that boxing is an incomplete art when it comes to addressing all aspects of self defense (yes, I know, boxing is a sport not a self defense art specifically... though I'm sure someone will rip me for saying that anyways). Nonetheless, despite boxing is more of a sport it is still a valid criticism. I don't see the sense of (see Tellner...), nor am I saying that you did/are-doing it because I don't think you are, making ad hominem attacks on an individual rather than dealing with the arguments made prima facie.


 
And here we go - if you think that boxing is purely a sport then you don't know much about boxing to begin with. There is "sport" boxing, which is shown on television, then there is "real" boxing where there are no fouls and grappling and even groundfighting are included. So no - it wouldn't be fair, it would be just another blanket statement made by somebody who really doesn't know what they are talking about concerning a particular art, and it is also a very narrowminded and uninformed criticism. TKD gets criticised a lot, but yet there are people who have successfully utilized it in a self defense situation. So, since it has proven useful and effective by individuals living in this modern age against modern threats, where does the criticism come in (other than the mcdojo's and flashy dashy stuff :lol2? Now, don't take it personally because I am not trying to attack you personally - I am attacking a common misperception. Many people criticise based on a very shallow understanding of an art, or the art doesn't work for them so they trash it despite the fact that the art works perfectly for others. If you don't like an art that's one thing, but to bash an art and be disrespectful toward it when doing such a thing isn't furthering anyone's cause in any way is just plain ignorant and juvenile. If you don't have anything nice (or at least constructive, for crying out loud) to say, then perhaps speech is not the best option. (and again, the *you* is not addressing you specifically, it is a general *you*)


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## theletch1 (May 26, 2008)

[playnice]Jeff Letchford[/playnice]


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## exile (May 26, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> There is "sport" boxing, which is shown on television, then there is "real" boxing where there are no fouls and grappling and even groundfighting are included.



Iain Abernethy has written some informative stuff about the history of boxing, some of which, interestingly enough, is based on research that Jack Dempsey (yes, _the_ Jack Dempsey) carried out on the 19th c. bare-knuckle boxers and their complex fighting system, which, if I recall correctly, did indeed have  striking. grappling and groundfighting components in it. Sport boxing definitely represents a reduction in the range of techs employed by the old, _old_ timers...

... but even so, there's something about modern boxing which gives it, in many quarters, credibility of a kind that a lot of other combat sports don't have: training for a fighting distance which is realistic in terms of what will happen to you in street violence. Boxers, unlike exponents of a lot of ring sports that developed from TMAs, don't define the default fighting distance in the six-to-eight foot range; it's way closer than that, and boxers _train_ for that range, which is the other half of the equation. Staying in very close, doing evasion and making yourself feel at home within knockout range of the other guy requires a kind of mindset that strikes me as very distant from the typical training distance of sport TKD/karate/whatever.


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## neoinarien (May 26, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> And here we go - if you think that boxing is purely a sport then you don't know much about boxing to begin with. There is "sport" boxing, which is shown on television, then there is "real" boxing where there are no fouls and grappling and even groundfighting are included. So no - it wouldn't be fair, it would be just another blanket statement made by somebody who really doesn't know what they are talking about concerning a particular art, and it is also a very narrowminded and uninformed criticism. TKD gets criticised a lot, but yet there are people who have successfully utilized it in a self defense situation. So, since it has proven useful and effective by individuals living in this modern age against modern threats, where does the criticism come in (other than the mcdojo's and flashy dashy stuff :lol2? Now, don't take it personally because I am not trying to attack you personally - I am attacking a common misperception. Many people criticise based on a very shallow understanding of an art, or the art doesn't work for them so they trash it despite the fact that the art works perfectly for others. If you don't like an art that's one thing, but to bash an art and be disrespectful toward it when doing such a thing isn't furthering anyone's cause in any way is just plain ignorant and juvenile. If you don't have anything nice (or at least constructive, for crying out loud) to say, then perhaps speech is not the best option. (and again, the *you* is not addressing you specifically, it is a general *you*)



Sage,

Thank you for the clarification (specifically, "If you don't like an art that's one thing, but to bash an art and be disrespectful toward it when doing such a thing isn't furthering anyone's cause in any way is just plain ignorant and juvenile. If you don't have anything nice (or at least constructive, for crying out loud) to say, then perhaps speech is not the best option.") I agree 100% there. 

Qualification
However, just because someone, sometime, somewhere has utilized art X to defend themselves does not mean that the art is all that great. It could be that what they were doing was pretty bad and they just got lucky whereas they would lose the same fight 99 times out of 100. While I agree that most criticisms of other MA's are bad faith and/or bad taste, I would be worried about disclaiming all criticism, some of which is done in good faith and good taste, as invalid.

Re. the boxing sidebar:
I think boxing can be practiced as either a sport, or self defense (hence why I said "specifically", since it can be practiced either way). While I cannot claim any special knowledge on boxing, it was my impression from speaking with others who do box, that boxing is exclusively hand striking (I should have been more specific, I was not addressing kick boxing, etc). 


Anywho: I agree, less the qualification above.


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## SageGhost83 (May 26, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> Qualification
> However, just because someone, sometime, somewhere has utilized art X to defend themselves does not mean that the art is all that great. It could be that what they were doing was pretty bad and they just got lucky whereas they would lose the same fight 99 times out of 100. While I agree that most criticisms of other MA's are bad faith and/or bad taste, I would be worried about disclaiming all criticism, some of which is done in good faith and good taste, as invalid.


 
Ah, I think I get what you are saying now. You are saying that, while there are a lot people who criticise arts for the reason that I mentioned, not all people criticise all arts for that reason - sometimes the criticism is more than warranted and it comes from the very people who hold high ranks in the system, and sometimes it is not exactly criticism, it is a painfully honest observation. Maybe, constructive criticism from deeply knowledgeable individuals? That is what I think that you are saying, but I am not trying to put words in your mouth, my friend :asian:. You are 100% right in that regard - sometimes the criticism is in good faith, and it is a "good criticism" hinting at the need for the art to continue to grow. In this day and age, however, the bulk of the criticism is in bad faith, and that is what I was addressing in my earlier posts. I see what you are saying about art x, but what about the *many* people who have successfully utilized it to defend themselves? We can't just write that off as a fluke. I believe that we could make that argument for any style because victory is never a guarantee even under the best of circumstances. Anybody can get lucky with any style, anybody can win with any style, and anybody can lose with any style. That is why we say that it comes down to the individual, not the style. The style doesn't fight, the individual does. I was also saying that the style does work for some people and that it doesn't work for others. It is the latter that seems to be the harshest critics even though they overlook the very real results of the former. Most "evidence" that is shown of TKD being ineffective usually involves someone who is just plain horrible at the style going against someone who excels at their own style (and vice versa, of course). I have met some Taekwondoin who couldn't fight their way out of a Mcdonalds against the hamburglar, and I have met some Taekwondoin who could hold their own against just about anyone. In the end, I think that it all comes down to what the individual martial artist seeks in their own training and where they want to go in the arts, be it hobby, professional competition, self defense, or what have you.


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## neoinarien (May 26, 2008)

> In this day and age, however, the bulk of the criticism is in bad faith, and that is what I was addressing in my earlier posts.



Yep, agreed. 

I think that in this day and age, especially on the internet, most criticism is done in bad faith and often in very bad taste often resorting to pointless ad hominem attacks (as we have seen in this thread).

But yeah. We're on the same page.


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## Dave Leverich (May 26, 2008)

exile said:


> ...Boxers, unlike exponents of a lot of ring sports that developed from TMAs, don't define the default fighting distance in the six-to-eight foot range; it's way closer than that, and boxers _train_ for that range, which is the other half of the equation. Staying in very close, doing evasion and making yourself feel at home within knockout range of the other guy requires a kind of mindset that strikes me as very distant from the typical training distance of sport TKD/karate/whatever.



Awesome information Exile, thanks!

One thing I've found in MMA vs the traditional arts I've done was the different ranges, rather than being a long/short/touch range... it's all of them depending on the fighters and relative positions. In TKD of course, most of what I did was that long long range, but in stand-up MT/Boxing etc, it's that, then the closer danger range (leg kicks/jab etc).

I know it's kind of a tangent, but if anyone watched Machida this weekend against Ortiz, just watch his distancing and him cutting the angles, it's like a seminar in using distance.


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## YoungMan (May 27, 2008)

Does anyone really think TKD fighters start out at a much greater distance than other fighters. Other than being a little farther away than boxers, isn't really isn't that great of a distance.
The important difference is that when a TKD fighter tries to close the gap or rush in (the way MMA or boxers tend to), he usually finds himself on the receiving end of a well placed kick before he can close the gap.
Unlike MMA fighters or boxers who try to rush in so they can hammer you with punches and grapple, TKD fighters will not let you get that close. I've seen TKD fighters try to rush in and get KO'd. Believe me, TKD fights are not intentionally designed to prohibit punching contact (except to the face. WTF fighters do not wear hand pads. Do you really want a bunch of guys with broken noses and open wounds walking around?) The fighting style makes it very difficult to that.


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## exile (May 27, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The important difference is that when a TKD fighter tries to close the gap or rush in (the way MMA or boxers tend to), he usually finds himself on the receiving end of a well placed kick before he can close the gap.
> Unlike MMA fighters or boxers who try to rush in so they can hammer you with punches and grapple, TKD fighters will not let you get that close.



Well, that's the _point_, isn't it? For street violence, you are not going to _be_ in a TKD ring match governed by WTF scoring rules, right? Street altercations are initiated very close, toe to toe or closer, most commonly with a grab or push or something coming right up to you, so what does it matter to a TKD-trained person what another TKD person would do to you under well-regulated tournament conditions, if you get someone within two feet of you looking to get in the sucker punch??

The _point_ is that, as people who monitor these things have found over and over again, steet violence typically starts at very close range and if anything gets closer. The 'gap'  is _already_ closed by the time the first punch is thrown. All you're doing here is reinforcing the point that tournament TKD conditions do not match up well with realistic violence settings... and I have the impression that that's something most people are already in general agreement with. The TKD the ROK marines and commando units used in two horrific wars wasn't anything like WTF-rules sparring. And if I'm not mistaken, the point of the OP has to do with the fact that TKD is constantly criticized for not being SD-effective, not with the abilities of its tournament athletes, eh?


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## SageGhost83 (May 27, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> Yep, agreed.
> 
> I think that in this day and age, especially on the internet, most criticism is done in bad faith and often in very bad taste often resorting to pointless ad hominem attacks (as we have seen in this thread).
> 
> But yeah. We're on the same page.


 
I think that this is a good example of the criticism in good faith that you are talking about:

Excerpt 1 (p. 88, Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine, June 2008)
Now some members of the old guard are withdrawing their support for modern Wushu. Ma Xianda said, "Following 1949, we have been following the path of flowery Wushu and that caused a lot of damage to Wushu." Zhao Changjun, arguably the next top modern Wushu Champion right after Jet Li, said, "modern Wushu is a failure."

Excerpt 2 (p.88, Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine, June 2008)
Wu Bin, coach of the Beijing Wushu Team and Jet Li, asks, "is this Wushu? Is this martial arts? What is authentic?...If your Jingqishen (essence, energy, spirit) is not good enough, then this is not Wushu."

When people of that skill and experience criticise portions of their own art in good faith then it doesn't fit the whole insecurity thing, it is an honest critique of the style by some of its top proponents. Looks like I will have to reevaluate some of my own views. Thanks for the revelation, growing is part of being a good martial artist :asian:.


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## SageGhost83 (May 27, 2008)

exile said:


> The TKD the ROK marines and commando units used in two horrific wars wasn't anything like WTF-rules sparring.


 
That is what I have come to believe, too. I don't buy that high, flashy kicks were a devastating weapon in the age of the automatic rifle and the sniper rifle. I think TKD was a valuable tool for the ROK, but like you, I think that ROK TKD was just a tad different from what most TKD schools teach these days (WTF).


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## SageGhost83 (May 27, 2008)

exile said:


> Iain Abernethy has written some informative stuff about the history of boxing, some of which, interestingly enough, is based on research that Jack Dempsey (yes, _the_ Jack Dempsey) carried out on the 19th c. bare-knuckle boxers and their complex fighting system, which, if I recall correctly, did indeed have striking. grappling and groundfighting components in it. Sport boxing definitely represents a reduction in the range of techs employed by the old, _old_ timers...


 
Yes, exactly! It is like our beloved TKD - what is shown as a representation of the art is not the original product, it is a stripped down sporting version. People look at the stripped down sporting version and use it to judge the value of the original product. Modern boxing follows the Marquis of Queensberry rules, and these rules actually made it a point to outlaw stand up grappling and groundfighting. Before these rules, stand up grappling and groundfighting were normal parts of boxing. Under the London Prize Ring rules, which preceded the Marquis of Queensberry rules, grappling and groundfighting were perfectly legal and the boxers even fought bare knuckle. This is what I am talking about concerning the tendency for people to rush to judgment concerning an art without actually practicing it and learning the art themselves :lol:.


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## Xue Sheng (May 27, 2008)

I am not sure if I should be in this thread or not, my TKD days were over 20 years ago, but I started pre-Olympic TKD. And I have since looked in on a few TKD schools over the years and I have been pretty upset with what I saw. We trained close in fighting and there were takedowns, we trained punches and strikes to various body parts NOT just the small area of what is allowed for points and even though we had high kicks one of those was an axe kick and it was pretty devastating if applied correctly but we also trained low and mid-level kicks as well. And the fact that the assistant instructor ripped the top off of 2 kick bags with kicks and the chief instructor (owner) could bounce a heavy bag off a rather high ceiling told me those kicks were not something I wanted to be in front off.

 I have been rather upset with the route TKD went over the years but I would love to see it return to what it use to be, what I know it to be actually.


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## exile (May 27, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> That is what I have come to believe, too. I don't buy that high, flashy kicks were a devastating weapon in the age of the automatic rifle and the sniper rifle. I think TKD was a valuable tool for the ROK, but like you, I think that ROK TKD was just a tad different from what most TKD schools teach these days (WTF).



Last thing you want to be trying to do on the battle field at close quarters is a spinning high kick, for sure... 



Xue Sheng said:


> *I have been rather upset with the route TKD went over the years but I would love to see it return to what it use to be, what I know it to be actually.*



More and more and more, XS, this is what I've been hearing. It's not just us...


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## terryl965 (May 27, 2008)

All I can say is this everybody has there private points of views here, but the facts remains that you cannot judge a complete type of Art by what you see in the majority. These folks got into TKD to simply make money and not give a damm about the actual art. Over twenty seven year I have seen alot of bad TKD and I personally understand why people say what they say. My lord just in the DFW area there are 1,273 TKD school. They are everywhere rec. center, boys and girls club every strip mall ahs a school. When all people see are a bunch of childern in high belt thoughout the school and very few adult what can you or i expect.

The days of hard training is far and in between, most of the school treat there student base like cattle and little else, remember what we do to cattle and that is what these so called instuctor are doing to our art killing it.

I hope when I am gone that my three son's can remember why we do what we do and not fall victom to society of TKD. I can only imagine what will become in twenty years? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## SageGhost83 (May 27, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am not sure if I should be in this thread or not, my TKD days were over 20 years ago, but I started pre-Olympic TKD. And I have since looked in on a few TKD schools over the years and I have been pretty upset with what I saw. We trained close in fighting and there were takedowns, we trained punches and strikes to various body parts NOT just the small area of what is allowed for points and even though we had high kicks one of those was an axe kick and it was pretty devastating if applied correctly but we also trained low and mid-level kicks as well. And the fact that the assistant instructor ripped the top off of 2 kick bags with kicks and the chief instructor (owner) could bounce a heavy bag off a rather high ceiling told me those kicks were not something I wanted to be in front off.
> 
> I have been rather upset with the route TKD went over the years but I would love to see it return to what it use to be, what I know it to be actually.


 
You seem very knowledgable about TKD to me, so I don't see why you wouldn't belong in this thread :asian:. I am upset about the current state of the art, too. Hopefully this olympic thing runs its course and TKD gets back to being TKD, not olympic foot tag.


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## YoungMan (May 27, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> That is what I have come to believe, too. I don't buy that high, flashy kicks were a devastating weapon in the age of the automatic rifle and the sniper rifle. I think TKD was a valuable tool for the ROK, but like you, I think that ROK TKD was just a tad different from what most TKD schools teach these days (WTF).


 
But it's not supposed to be. ROK Taekwondo by definition is not designed for a ring. Tournament Taekwondo by definition is not supposed to be street realistic. Self defense-oriented Taekwondo is another beast entirely. What many people seem to forget is that modern Taekwondo is composed of many different parts, depending on what you want. Don't like tournament fighting? Don't have to do it. Kukkiwon TKD is not just tournament competition, despite what the naysayers say.


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## Tez3 (May 27, 2008)

Do people feel it's the Olympics that has spoiled TKD? My other sport is dressage, kata for horses if you like. It's not a very well known event and  tbh very boring if you don't know whats going on. No one is going to watch it if they're not interested and to those that are they are passionate about it. However the Olympic commitees want it jazzed up, spectator friendly and saleable to advertisers. This has been resisted..so far but once the commitee members get their teeth into it it won't be recognisable as the event we love. Why can't they leave these minority sports alone, why do they have to be messed around with just to try to attract people to watch them so they can sell advertising space on the programmes! 
This is dressage, it has a lot in common with kata in actual fact as the horse were schooled to be able to 'fight' in battles. Their riders would use them to clear a path for them and take down the enemy by knocking and kicking them away.




 
I've hear many judo people decrying the rules made for the Olympics to make it more spectator friendly but diluting the actual power of the art. don't get me started either on beach volleyball where the female competitors can be penalised for wearing too much!! yeah nice for the men to look at and so so commercial! That's what it's all come down to.... Olympics = commercial trading company. Never mind the sports it ruins it must make money.
Ok rant over!!


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## exile (May 27, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Do people feel it's the Olympics that has spoiled TKD? My other sport is dressage, kata for horses if you like. It's not a very well known event and  tbh very boring if you don't know whats going on. No one is going to watch it if they're not interested and to those that are they are passionate about it. However the Olympic commitees want it jazzed up, spectator friendly and saleable to advertisers. This has been resisted..so far but once the commitee members get their teeth into it it won't be recognisable as the event we love. Why can't they leave these minority sports alone, why do they have to be messed around with just to try to attract people to watch them so they can sell advertising space on the programmes!
> This is dressage, it has a lot in common with kata in actual fact as the horse were schooled to be able to 'fight' in battles. Their riders would use them to clear a path for them and take down the enemy by knocking and kicking them away.
> 
> 
> ...



The history of the modern Olympics has been one of nonstop corruption, horsetrading, thrown competitions and other quid pro quo transactions that make organized crime look honest by comparison. The use of steroids in the 1960s and 70s by many of the then Eastern-bloc countries (and later on by some of our very own athletes) the dishonesty in judging in high-profile eventswitness the grotesque judgments that have become more and more notorious in the figure skating competitionsand the out-and-out bribery that nations have in effect indulged in in trying to get their own sites selected for future Olympics... all make it clear that Olympic culture is rotten to its diseased bones.  TKD is _bound_ to have been corrupted by its involvement in the Olympic underworld; just ask Terry, or Kwan Jang, or some of our other very senior, experienced members with extensive competitive records just what they've seen and heard in their decades around the WTF sport side of things (they've related some of the more sleazy episodes you're likely to hear in previous threads). 

Mass marketing for spectacle creates a monoclonal version of any activity unfortunate enough to be subject to that kind of development. My own feeling is, the best thing that could happen to TKD would be to lose its Olympic status. That wouldn't mean people who wanted a competitive circuit couldn't have one; the ITF has tournaments, TSD has tournaments; karate has a huge sport side (which a lot of realistic, applied karate types themselves aren't too happy about, I gather). But the sheer volume of $$ that the Olympic entanglement brings into the TKD scene has the kind of corrupting effect that Terry refers to in his previous post, pretty much inevitably. My own feeling is, that's something the multisided nature of the art could do very well _without_.


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## SageGhost83 (May 27, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> But it's not supposed to be. ROK Taekwondo by definition is not designed for a ring. Tournament Taekwondo by definition is not supposed to be street realistic. Self defense-oriented Taekwondo is another beast entirely. What many people seem to forget is that modern Taekwondo is composed of many different parts, depending on what you want. Don't like tournament fighting? Don't have to do it. Kukkiwon TKD is not just tournament competition, despite what the naysayers say.


 
Yes, you are exactly right and I am in agreement with you. I was speaking more to the types who take WTF or Olympic Style TKD and try to use the ROK marine argument to support their version of TKD. You and I both know this, but there are a lot of uniformed souls out there who hear ROK marine TKD and all-too-readily equate it to what they see in modern tournaments or in the flashy strip mall dojangs.


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## newGuy12 (May 27, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> It's the Olympics that have quote-unquote "ruined" it. If it went back to the way it used to be taught before a lot of schools adopted the Olympic/competition rules it would go back to being a perfectly good system( ask the ROK Marines).



Oh,  I say let the competitors have their competition.  It is enjoyable, and it beats throwing rocks at cars.  it gives satisfaction to many, and people know that there is more to TKD than this competition.  Besides, there is good power in some of these competition kicks, too.  A knock-out kick, that is powerful.



Twin Fist said:


> i shudder when i hear MMA or BJJ because i think it is a very FLAWED system for self defense, yet when you try to point that out, people invariably try to shove the UFC (a flawed and stacked contest from the 1st one till now) in your face. It gets old. But then, i dont go out of my way to trash them either. So maybe i dont fit what you were talking about.



Anymore, I am so freaking flexible I can hardly stand up.  These people who wish to practice the grappling and so forth, they can have their fun too.  I will NEVER bad mouth this UFC, because I had the pleasure of meeting Matt Serra in person at the NRA convention.  He is one of the most pleasant people you would ever wish to meet, no kidding, a top notch dude. 

I know that if someone gets into the grappling range, the American Kenpo Person can break the neck, no joke.  This is very dangerous.  But it comes down to range.  Some people hate to be so close.  Some like to be in kicking range, in punching range, that is where the fun is.  If the student does not like the practice, they will not persist, unless their life depends on it.   So, everyone must find the martial art that is pleasant to them, so that they will continue.

To put the maximum power on the target gives satisfaction.  It is amazing.  How do you do that?    You do the jumping spinning side kick!
Where do you learn that?  Oh -- the TKD Dojang.  That's where the fun is!



exile said:


> where the favorite activity seems to be pissing on every single traditional MA in turn.


And who has use for such people?  Screw them and their kind, life is too freaking short!



exile said:


> I think there's reason to be very hopeful that the near future is going to see a revival of 'old-school' TKD (and an accompany major split within the organization structure of the art, inevitably, as those of us who want TKD to be a practical fighting skill wind up going our own way...)



Hehe, its not here yet, but its coming.  It will be a Good Thing.

Its a big world with lots of diverse personalities.  But, for those who have felt the big kicks, giving and taking at that range, FAST MOTION in TKD, what else can compare for that feeling of putting BIG POWER on the target?  Nothing else, for my money.  If others wish to do something else, so be it.   I have a good buddy who is a bit of a rowdy sort.  He practices the Shotokan.  I see him and yell, "Hello, Shotokan!", and raise a fist you know.  He gets upset sometimes, but, there is room for all of these martial arts.  There's really no need to fuss.  We all must pick a horse and ride.  I do feel somewhat sorry for those who do not feel this "BIG FEELING" that I have had, though.  Its incredible.

Good people, good times, good TKD.  We are very fortunate to be able to practice this.


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## newGuy12 (May 27, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> It happens across the board, even Taekwondoin engage in this behavior towards other styles (*cough* Muay Thai *cough* *cough*). Don't worry about what "everybody else" says about your style.



You will never hear this user disrespect the Muay Thai way.  We have three students now that used to practice this somewhere.  I don't know what methods they used there, but two of these boys know GOOD POWER.  They are not afraid to give power! 

They grew dissatisfied with their previous practice, but we have a good place for them here.  They agree.  Whatever that previous school did to endow the boys with the attitude of giving power, it worked!  In the old days, TKD would do that, of course, but nowadays, the young people seem to not take to it well.  I hate to say it.

Right.  We have our two students now, and they are coming along quite nicely!  Good heart these guys have! They can take a shot and give it too!  This is the right way.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 27, 2008)

I just finished reading this entire thread, all five pages worth!  All that really needs to be said has been said, and then some.  But I will throw my hat into the ring anyway.

I'll stick to the subject of of McDojangs, as nearly everything else has been well and duly covered.  I truly feel that the majority of these places do not exist for the sole purpose of fleecing the uninformed.  I do think that, at least in the US, the buying public has greatly shaped our teaching methods and business practices.  

A school needs money to stay open.  If the owner is independently wealthy and can do so without charging any fee, bravo, but that is rarely the case.  Also, the majorty of people who take up a martial art typically quit on the way to or just after receiving their black belt.  Because of this, schools will go down the path of clever marketing, karate camp, and birthday parties, as well as eight year old blackbelts in order to stay in business.  

*Note: *I am aware that there are slick people who use martial arts as nothing more than a cash cow and set out from the very beginning to do so.  These are not the schools of which I speak, and of which I feel are the minority, even amongst McDojangs.

Students and students' parents will potentially sue for just about anything, from physical injury to denial of a blackbelt.  This climate tends to encourage a more tepid school than the owner may wish to have.  And forgetting lawsuits, the student can simply quit and go elsewhere.  Most people in this country have developed an entitlement mentality, so the idea that a martial art does not reward all equally, regardless of effort rubs many the wrong way, though they'd never admit it.  People want money that they didn't earn, jobs for which they are unfit, and to be exempt from any penalties, regardless of how grevous their wrongs.

I believe that the continuing increase in the cost of tests as the student progresses also prevents schools from withholding a black belt (or any belt) from a student who does not test well.  Admittedly, a student shouldn't be allowed to test if they aren't ready, but that is another subject.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the whole birthday party thing; if the actual class is a decent class with quality instruction, then I really don't care if the owner uses birthday parties or karate camp to supplement the school's income.  I *do* have a problem with eight year olds being permited to wear anything more than a poom belt.  

My last comment is this:  You get out what you put in, regardless of where you train.  If a student trains hard and with dedication at a McDojang, they will inevitably get more out of the class than those who mail it in.  In fact, I'd venture that a lot of instructors at McDojang schools are very happy to have such students when they come along and take the time to cultivate them.

Just a few less than organized thoughts on the subject. 

Daniel


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## SageGhost83 (May 28, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> You will never hear this user disrespect the Muay Thai way. We have three students now that used to practice this somewhere. I don't know what methods they used there, but two of these boys know GOOD POWER. They are not afraid to give power!
> 
> They grew dissatisfied with their previous practice, but we have a good place for them here. They agree. Whatever that previous school did to endow the boys with the attitude of giving power, it worked! In the old days, TKD would do that, of course, but nowadays, the young people seem to not take to it well. I hate to say it.
> 
> Right. We have our two students now, and they are coming along quite nicely! Good heart these guys have! They can take a shot and give it too! This is the right way.


 
That's awesome, and you are a good Taekwondoin and who practices in good faith. I have come across some Taekwondoin who bash MT and its Kicks just becuase they are not WTF TKD. Then they thinly veil how they wish they could kick they MT kicks. I was stating in that you will have some students from *every* style, even within our own TKD, who engages in not so appetizing behavior. More to the effect of "we have ours, too - the TKD community is not filled with perfect angels". TKD did have monstrous power in its kicks, and many schools still do, it just that, like Celtic Tiger said, a lot of owners are lawsuit-aware and don't want to risk what could happen if the TKD kicks were that practiced with that kind of power. Oh, and some never learned how to make their kicks that powerful, themselves. Celtic Tiger, your post was excellent and really added nicely to the thread. Kudos! :asian:


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## SageGhost83 (May 28, 2008)

By the way, newguy12...Where have you been!? I haven't seen you posting in a good while! Maybe I have just been looking in the wrong places :lol:.


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## StuartA (May 28, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> I *do* have a problem with eight year olds being permited to wear anything more than a poom belt.


Isnt a poom belt the junior equivilant of an adult black belt, and by KKW rules, they do not have to regrade or anything and technically just advance to whatever the next dan grade level is (ie. a 2nd poom is allowed to 3rd dan) via a grading, when they come of age or port straight over to the dan grade equivilant, for some that could mean 4th dan :xtrmshock

It seems like the 'poom' is a disguise to allow very young BBs into the fold!

So I do not understand why some feel its okay for an 8 year old to wear a poom belt, but not a black belt.. as they are the same thing by a different name! Or am I missing something!

Personally, I dont feel an 8 year old should be wearing a black belt or any equivilant to it, by any name.. but hey, thats just me. :wink2:

Stuart


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## terryl965 (May 28, 2008)

StuartA said:


> Isnt a poom belt the junior equivilant of an adult black belt, and by KKW rules, they do not have to regrade or anything and technically just advance to whatever the next dan grade level is (ie. a 2nd poom is allowed to 3rd dan) via a grading, when they come of age or port straight over to the dan grade equivilant, for some that could mean 4th dan :xtrmshock
> 
> It seems like the 'poom' is a disguise to allow very young BBs into the fold!
> 
> ...


 
Well stuart you know how I feel and all my junior re-test no matter what except they leave the school. A poom is fine with me as long as they and the parents understand it is not a real adult BB.


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## StuartA (May 28, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Well stuart you know how I feel and all my junior re-test no matter what except they leave the school. A poom is fine with me as long as they and the parents understand it is not a real adult BB.


 
I do indeed and totally agree with the way you handle it. The problem is that way is not the criteria and not the standard way, which it should be, and as it isnt it remains as in my previous post.. which makes having another name for it (poom) pointless except to appease certain crowds for money/political reasons.

Stuart


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## Xue Sheng (May 28, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> To put the maximum power on the target gives satisfaction. It is amazing. How do you do that?


 
Sounds like Xingyiquan and if we were talking Xingyiquan you do it with anything you hit with :EG:


But back to the topic, and I am not really sure how much I can add after this, as I said TKD was a long time ago. 

I started Pre-Olympic but it was heading toward becoming an Olympic sport and then became one while I was training TKD and it was rather strange, interesting and funny to watch this process at my old school.

The teacher separated the class into Olympic and non-Olympic and we were free to choose whichever we wanted or do both if we wanted, I tried the Olympic but I am not big on competitions and frankly I didn't like it as much as the non-Olympic tkd. And add to that the teacher did not really understand what the Olympic thing was about and he had no protective equipment available at that time. After some student complaints he bought one chest protector from Korea and I have to tell you I tried it once and only once. It did stop some of the feeling of penetration of a kick but it spread the actual PAIN of that kick over your entire chest, frankly I thought it hurt more. It was made of bamboo staves covered with padding. 

He later bought other equipment and allowed students to buy their own but I do not think he ever quite figured out why anyone wanted to use pads and he laughed every time he watched someone putting them on also he was constantly saying "there are no pads in a fight".

I have no idea what his school is like now it does still exist, but at the time non-Olympic or Olympic I was pretty impressed with his ability as a martial artist and as a teacher. 

But I would really like to see TKD return to what it was before this whole Olympic mess.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 28, 2008)

StuartA said:


> Isnt a poom belt the junior equivilant of an adult black belt, and by KKW rules, they do not have to regrade or anything and technically just advance to whatever the next dan grade level is (ie. a 2nd poom is allowed to 3rd dan) via a grading, when they come of age or port straight over to the dan grade equivilant, for some that could mean 4th dan :xtrmshock
> 
> It seems like the 'poom' is a disguise to allow very young BBs into the fold!
> 
> ...


Its not just you.  And like yourself, I have a serious problem with the lack of regrading.  Personally, I think that the KKW should simply not allow anyone under the age of 15 (?) to test for a blackbelt and should not offer an equivalent.  But since they do, thats why I state that I have the problem with the wee ones wearing anything higher than a poom belt.

I like the idea of providing a reward for a student who learns the cirriculum, but I have a problem with the lack of regrading.  But I have an even bigger problem with school allowing the eight year old to wear an actual blackbelt.  

It may seem superficial to differentiate between a poom belt, which is half black and half red, and a blackbelt on a young student, but it makes a huge difference to the uninformed looking in; they either see eight year old blackbelts or eight year olds with a halfsy belt.  

The uninformed don't know what a halfsy belt is, but they _do _know what a blackbelt is and that the halfsy _isn't_ a black belt.  Mores the better if the students know that it isn't a blackbelt as well, though that probably isn't the case most of the time.

Daniel


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## StuartA (May 28, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> It may seem superficial to differentiate between a poom belt, which is half black and half red, and a blackbelt on a young student, but it makes a huge difference to the uninformed looking in; they either see eight year old blackbelts or eight year olds with a halfsy belt.


I see your point and it would actually mean something (the poom belt, not your point) if a regrading took place, but as I said, it doesnt, so it doesnt just seem superficial.. it is superficial.


Thanks for the reply & further explanation to it all Daniel,

Regards,

Stuart


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 28, 2008)

Very superficial unfortunately.  Frankly, a black tag should be the last thing a young student should be able to test for before they're fifteen or so.  But as long as parents are willing to pony up 300-500 dollars for a blackbelt test for an eight year old, blackbelt munchkins will not go away.  Incredibly, another federation actually has divisions for six and seven year old blackbelts.  Hokey smokes!!

Daniel


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## newGuy12 (May 28, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> TKD did have monstrous power in its kicks, and many schools still do, it just that, like Celtic Tiger said, a lot of owners are lawsuit-aware and don't want to risk what could happen if the TKD kicks were that practiced with that kind of power. Oh, and some never learned how to make their kicks that powerful, themselves.



Well, I have seen what I have seen, and yes, things have changed.   I have heard talk -- that capitalism is superior to communism, and if you wish to have a Dojang you must make money.  I can appreciate that.  There must be a balance.  It does not suit me, but I do not run the world.  Who would practice so hard nowadays?  I am older myself (I'm not bragging -- but I was once a good Student -- fast and strong -- not the best, but not an embarrassment to my School, either).

Things change.  And then they change some more.   Its not easy to build a good School, after all.  You must get young people with good heart.  They have to be able to understand eventually to give and take -- HARD at times, hard enough to feel this.  They have to respect each other not to give injury.  Then, they have to keep coming to practice, all the time, over and over, until they mature into good adult Students.  This is not an overnight matter.



SageGhost83 said:


> By the way, newguy12...Where have you been!? I haven't seen you posting in a good while! Maybe I have just been looking in the wrong places :lol:.



I took a break.  I did not look at this board for some time.  I myself can get involved in some personality clashes, and its best to just back off sometimes.  I have been going to the weight lifting gymnasium as much as the TKD dojang.  That is only exercise, not Art, not Discipline, but it is very enjoyable. 

I sometimes despair that the Real TKD is dying off with the Old Masters, and it will be gone forever.  I have seen these men myself.  But, then I read these threads and know that others, some Instructors have great concern about this.  The TKD bb Student does not give up.  No.  That is a very important part, to not give up.

TKD will be just fine.  It will change again.  Knowledge will be freed up and published.  Students and Instructors will have a hand in reviving the old ways of training, even if it is not available to all (because of the fear of a lawsuit and so forth).  

You know, you must find the kids who wish to really fight, not just competition.  They want to learn to do self-defense.  They appreciate the ways of just doing what the Teacher says to do, because they have respect and trust.  They have to be inspired, so they have to see this *BIG POWER*.  Why else would they commit?  This is not usual in our culture.

There was a story once on this board, someone came to the Dojang and they ran their mouth, right?  "Your Teacher is no good, I could beat him up."  The Students then said to go ahead and try it.

Well, The Teacher gave the sweep and that was it, then!  This is not so nice, this TKD.  There comes a time that the students have to see this kind of thing -- BAM!   They have to feel it themselves --  the Teacher gives it!  BAM!!!  How else can you fully appreciate this?  By watching?   No.  Its not so easy, then.  Not all young people are inspired to follow a harsh path.


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## SageGhost83 (May 30, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> Well, I have seen what I have seen, and yes, things have changed. I have heard talk -- that capitalism is superior to communism, and if you wish to have a Dojang you must make money. I can appreciate that. There must be a balance. It does not suit me, but I do not run the world. Who would practice so hard nowadays? I am older myself (I'm not bragging -- but I was once a good Student -- fast and strong -- not the best, but not an embarrassment to my School, either).
> 
> Things change. And then they change some more. Its not easy to build a good School, after all. You must get young people with good heart. They have to be able to understand eventually to give and take -- HARD at times, hard enough to feel this. They have to respect each other not to give injury. Then, they have to keep coming to practice, all the time, over and over, until they mature into good adult Students. This is not an overnight matter.
> 
> ...


 
True words of wisdom spoken by an intelligent individual :asian:. I know what you mean about having to back away from the boards every now and then. I have done the same on many occasions, but my military obligations also pull me away from time to time . I agree with you that people must actually *see* and *feel* real TKD to gain an appreciation of what it is all about. As far as schools, there is a certain compromise that comes with living in a capitalist society, and I figure that the same applies for commercial schools. I have personally been against the idea of commercializing the martial arts, but hey, even that has its own benefits (such as raising awareness about martial arts in general), so there is good and bad to that, as well. I will always choose a garage dojo over a commercial school, but that is merely my own taste. The arts have not stopped evolving. They haven't always been this way and they will certainly be different in the future. My hope is that it is for the better.


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## newGuy12 (May 31, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> The arts have not stopped evolving. They haven't always been this way and they will certainly be different in the future. My hope is that it is for the better.



The student who wants to know the TKD *at depth* will do what they have to do.  Most likely they will try to go to England, or find some teacher near where they live.  If they want it more than anything else, they will find it.

The others can practice superficially.  This is not particular to TKD, or the martial arts after all.  Many fields of study have enthusiasts with varying degrees of enthusiasm and commitment.  Its the same with TKD.

How many people like computering, yet go their whole life using some Microsoft Windows OS, never really getting under the hood?   Others will dive in head first.  They want to CODE, they want to have CONTROL over their computing enviroment, and so on. 

The same here.

Now, that being said, its important to remember that the voices we hear saying, "The self-defense ways of TKD must be taught -- the most precious parts of it are embedded in these forms." are not motivated by money.  You *cannot* immediately gain more revenue by changing this curriculum in this way -- why?  Because you must give the people what they want, to gain more enrollment.

So, these people who wish for more "dirty" (for a lack of better word) TKD, the "Dark Side" of TKD -- you know what I am trying to say -- they are ideologues.  They wish only to promote the art as it was originally taught.  Because their motivation is "higher" than to get money, they will have a good impact -- they will have some influence on the greater community.  How exactly it takes hold is yet to be seen, but it will happen, the same as the Free Software Movement (free as in speech!) has influenced software -- people motivated by ideology rather than by money can have very powerful effect.


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## newGuy12 (May 31, 2008)

Nowadays, its different.  Some new student in TKD may very well come to this message board, and read these posts.

OH!

What is this that we are missing in our school?  What is that that is being taught by the teachers in England?  How can we learn this?

Get it?

The cat is out of the bag now.  Because of the internets.


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## StuartA (May 31, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> the "Dark Side" of TKD


 
LOL.. I like it.. once I was luke.. now Im Darth :bow:


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## Errant108 (Jun 1, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> But it's not supposed to be. ROK Taekwondo by definition is not designed for a ring. Tournament Taekwondo by definition is not supposed to be street realistic. Self defense-oriented Taekwondo is another beast entirely. What many people seem to forget is that modern Taekwondo is composed of many different parts, depending on what you want. Don't like tournament fighting? Don't have to do it. Kukkiwon TKD is not just tournament competition, despite what the naysayers say.




Where can I find out about this entirely other beast of self-defense Kukkiwon TKD?


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## terryl965 (Jun 1, 2008)

Find a old school instructor that does ROK type training and there still are some and yes they are KKW certified.


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## Errant108 (Jun 1, 2008)

If it is not an official part of curriculum of the Kukkiwon, it's worthless.


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## Kacey (Jun 1, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> If it is not an official part of curriculum of the Kukkiwon, it's worthless.



Why?  This is a serious question.  There are plenty of MAs that contain useful techniques that are not "an official part of the curriculum of the Kukkiwon".  So what makes anything else "worthless"?


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## terryl965 (Jun 1, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> If it is not an official part of curriculum of the Kukkiwon, it's worthless.


 
Well then since the KKW really does not have a curricukum then they are worthless as well. See errant they have no preset standerds anymore andreally never did.


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## Errant108 (Jun 1, 2008)

The Kukkiwon does have a curriculum.

They have an official standard and an official curriculum.  They always have.

They have their pumsae, and very precise instructions on how they are to be performed.  They have their regulations for sparring.  They have Instructors' Courses to certify & train you in their curriculum.  You don't have to follow their curriculum, but that doesn't mean they don't have one.

And thus, what is not officially part of their curriculum is not officially Kukki Taekwondo.

So, again, I'd love to find out more about this Kukkiwon self-defense TKD.


----------



## terryl965 (Jun 1, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> The Kukkiwon does have a curriculum.
> 
> They have an official standard and an official curriculum. They always have.
> 
> ...


 
Errant please I have done the instructor course twice and have trained there as well. Sure do they have minimal standerds YES and they are minimal at best. They have no way of telling you me or anyone else if there KKW certificate are with qualift people. You know this and as well if you have been part of the KKW for any length you know they teach SD principle, here is a LINK to there own website showing some SD moves.

I know you know this but there it is for everybody else.


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## newGuy12 (Jun 1, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> If it is not an official part of curriculum of the Kukkiwon, it's worthless.



Certainly I am misunderstanding something here.  Surely we
don't expect everything of value to be specified by the 
KKW.  To say that they are the end-all of all worthy TKD,
this can't be so.

As far as I know, the KKW has *nothing* to say regarding
General Choi's forms.  We know that these forms are very
beautiful and have strong fighting techniques in them.


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## SageGhost83 (Jun 2, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> Nowadays, its different. Some new student in TKD may very well come to this message board, and read these posts.
> 
> OH!
> 
> ...


 
And thank the stars for that! Now that the word is getting out, it will be far tougher for somebody to get over on people. Of course, it all depends on the depth of the student. Are they really serious about it or are they just doing it as a fun activity. The serious student will go elsewhere but the hobbyist won't care enough to do such a thing. So Mcdojangs will still have some business but it won't be with the lifers.


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## YoungMan (Jun 2, 2008)

The Internet is indeed a double edged sword. It is very easy to get wrong information, because anyone can post. But at the same time it's also much easier to do research without having to drive everywhere and waste time and gas.
It becomes much easier to Google some Instructor's name and see what comes up rather than just take his word for it.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 2, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> If it is not an official part of curriculum of the Kukkiwon, it's worthless.




huh. ok

I am just gonna keep going and pretend i didnt read this...............


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## Errant108 (Jun 2, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Errant please I have done the instructor course twice and have trained there as well. Sure do they have minimal standerds YES and they are minimal at best. They have no way of telling you me or anyone else if there KKW certificate are with qualift people.



Which makes me wonder why anyone would associate themselves with this organization?



terryl965 said:


> You know this and as well if you have been part of the KKW for any length you know they teach SD principle, here is a LINK to there own website showing some SD moves.
> 
> I know you know this but there it is for everybody else.



That's not self-defense.  That's dead, static training that will get you killed.  Without getting into the notion of step-sparring being next to worthless for alive combat, let's just take the bayonet defense that you offered.  For starters, the concept of range is completely ignored.  The defender would have virtually no chance of dealing with a bayonet attack at that range.  He is far too close.  Unless is THAT good, he wouldn't be able to tell where his attacker is going to stick that bayonet until it is far too late.  Ignoring that, let's say he actually manages to get around his opponent and achieve the arm bar in shoulder 2.  This is possibly the only good thing in this sequence, re: position and control, and even that is not great.  Still, there are options from this position, and achieving the position itself is possible.  However, our "Master", who has likely never drilled this technique in an alive manner, reliquishes control of his opponent to do what?  DROP AN ELBOW TO THE SPINE.  This technique has been proven time and time again to be a low percentage techinque for several reasons.  One, you have to be able to generate sufficient penetrative force for it to work.  In the photo of this technique, the Master is leaning over, and his hips are not noticably lower than before.  There would not be enough force in that technique to stop an opponent.  Secondly, you must hit an opponent at the correct spot in his spine in order to drop him.  The likelihood of doing that against a live, resisting opponent decreases.  Thus why this defense has been almost completely discarded in live competition (it is still completely legal in MMA competition).

Let's review the second issue with the elbow to the spine.  After moving outside the attack and securing control of your attacker's arm AND WEAPON, why in Buddha's name would you release control of that weapon in order to perform a low percentage technique like a drop elbow?  If you've got your opponent's arm locked, sweep his leg out and face plant him in the ground.  From there, strip him of his weapon and either A) use his weapon to hold him there until back-up/police/authorities come to apprehend him, or B) battlefield; put a round in his skull and then turn his rifle on his squad mates.  Look at it closely.  You are using TWO arms to control his weapon.  Almost every SD teacher I have had who has seen combat has said that this is the only practical way to go re: weapons defense.  If, in this example, the Master removes his right arm in order drop that elbow strike, he is only controlling the weapon & his opponent with a left hand wrist grab.  The second that right hand is removed, any pressure on the opponent's shoulder and elbow is instantly relieved, and the opponent can (and likely will) escape from the Master's hold, just by flowing with the new lack of resistance to his motion.

The second Bayonet gyorugi is slightly better, but includes no end game strategies.

Don't like my analysis of this example?  Get StuartA to take a look at it.  

If this is Kukki TKD self-defense, skip it and take up JKD or even Krav Maga.

If that is the Kukkiwon's standard of self-defense training, then the Kukkiwon is worthless, re: self-defense training.

This is my point.

If the Kukkiwon is the rank certification of Kukki Taekwondo, and what they offer is WORTHLESS as far as self-defense skills, turning around and saying that there is self-defense in Kukki Taekwondo, just not "OFFICIAL" self-defense is MEANINGLESS.

If there are individual masters out there who offer reliable, practical self-defense training under the banner of the Kukkiwon, then that's great.  However, I am not going to recommend that anyone study Kukki Taekwondo for self-defense purposes just on the off-chance they MAY find that master.

Outliers do not define a system.

Where are all these great TKD masters with these comprehensive, capable combative systems?

Show me.

Seriously.  I want to see it.  I want to believe that TKD works.

If the above is a representation of TKD self-defense skills, then I feel completely justified in leaving Kukki TKD for good.


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## Errant108 (Jun 2, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> Certainly I am misunderstanding something here.  Surely we
> don't expect everything of value to be specified by the
> KKW.  To say that they are the end-all of all worthy TKD,
> this can't be so.
> ...



Yeah, you misunderstood.  My response was in reference to YoungMan's statements on Kukki Taekwondo's self-defense training.


----------



## Errant108 (Jun 2, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The Internet is indeed a double edged sword. It is very easy to get wrong information, because anyone can post. But at the same time it's also much easier to do research without having to drive everywhere and waste time and gas.
> It becomes much easier to Google some Instructor's name and see what comes up rather than just take his word for it.



So you propose visiting every Kukki Taekwondo instructor everywhere in order to verify whether or not there is legitimate Kukki self-defense training?


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## Errant108 (Jun 2, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> huh. ok
> 
> I am just gonna keep going and pretend i didnt read this...............



LOL..I don't think you understood what I was saying.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 2, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> LOL.  I don't think you understood what I was saying.



oh, ok

*phew*

cool


----------



## Errant108 (Jun 2, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> oh, ok
> 
> *phew*
> 
> cool



No worries.

A lot of people get upset with what I have to say.  I am blunt, but I am logical.  I'm not going to be nice just to save people's feelings.  But, if you actually take the time to read what I'm saying, I encourage logical, rational, introspective discussion on what TKD training is, what it was, and what it should be.


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## terryl965 (Jun 2, 2008)

Errant I do not buy into we must follow KKW standerds at all, so I guess we are basically on the same page my argument is they have a SD curriculum that has some, never said I foolowed it just that it was there, never said it was any good. I will sum it up like this I am KKW certified but I play by my rules and my GM rules.


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## Errant108 (Jun 2, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Errant I do not buy into we must follow KKW standerds at all, so I guess we are basically on the same page my argument is they have a SD curriculum that has some, never said I foolowed it just that it was there, never said it was any good. I will sum it up like this I am KKW certified but I play by my rules and my GM rules.



That's fine.

Just understand that when someone says, "I do Kukki TKD,"  ie. you, someone like me is completely justified in dismissing you as a viable instructor for self-defense training.


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## exile (Jun 2, 2008)

Hey Errantwait a sec.

If you look at Terry's posts, he's been in the forefront of TKD people calling for a return to street-effective methods and interpretations of TKD, of combat-realistic applications of TKD hyungs and all the rest. He's the _last_ person to argue that the 'official KKW' line of SD has serious street relevance.

The thing is, not all of his students want to do that kind of TKD; some of them want to do WTF-style competitive sparring stuff, and his KKW cert is part of enabling them to qualify for WTF-sponsored events. As we've been saying on other threads, the KKW leans on its cozy relationship with the WTF so far as rank certification goes for tournament qualifying purposes. But Terry's long been a serious advocate of old-school, military-style hard TKD. I think you guys are on exactly the same page on this....


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## Errant108 (Jun 2, 2008)

The only thing I'm going by is commentary in this thread.  Again, it doesn't matter what Terry says, or what you say, or what I say, or what YoungMan says.

The minute we rep Kukki TKD, we lose all credibility vis a vis self-defense.


----------



## terryl965 (Jun 2, 2008)

Everybody is entitle to there opinion and so is errant, sir I hope TKD old school lives past my life and my son's and forever. Exile thanks for the plug but as you know I really do not care what people say about me, those that have known me for years know exactly what I stand for and those other can have a piece of hunble pie while drinking a coke.


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## terryl965 (Jun 2, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> That's fine.
> 
> Just understand that when someone says, "I do Kukki TKD," ie. you, someone like me is completely justified in dismissing you as a viable instructor for self-defense training.


 
Let me ask you these quesion what band of TKD do you do and how is that different from others. I believe this is a simple question so I will wait for your reply. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





P.S. since you really do not know me then do not throw me in the dog pile I am more SD than you may think, as a matter of fact I have been envolved in SD my whole life since that is all my father did was teach it in the Marine Corp. for 38 years.


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## Errant108 (Jun 2, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Let me ask you these quesion what band of TKD do you do and how is that different from others. I believe this is a simple question so I will wait for your reply.



I don't do TKD anymore.  Despite the few people trying to resurrect or save it, some of whom I respect more than you would ever believe, I just don't see the point.  You will never save TKD.  You may not realize it, but you're fighting the South Korean government.  You will lose.  You are destined to remain outliers.



terryl965 said:


> P.S. since you really do not know me then do not throw me in the dog pile I am more SD than you may think, as a matter of fact I have been envolved in SD my whole life since that is all my father did was teach it in the Marine Corp. for 38 years.



I throw you in the dog pile you include yourself in.

If you say you teach Kukki TKD, there is nothing there to make me think you are teaching anything worthwhile.

This is simple logic.


----------



## terryl965 (Jun 2, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> I don't do TKD anymore. Despite the few people trying to resurrect or save it, some of whom I respect more than you would ever believe, I just don't see the point. You will never save TKD. You may not realize it, but you're fighting the South Korean government. You will lose. You are destined to remain outliers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Do you even remember what Kukkiwon TKD was before it became a sport by there government or are you just talking to talk. We are all trying to be civilized here.  Did you ever train over sea? Or are you basing everything on what you learn here in the states from instructor that got there certificates while being on a plane?


----------



## terryl965 (Jun 2, 2008)

I would love to hear you tell people like Roy Kurban, Skipper Mullins and others that they are worthless and they are in that same dogpile since both have a KKW certificate.

Have a wonderful life.


----------



## terryl965 (Jun 2, 2008)

Tell me a little about your art *Cheolryun Gwonbeop, *what makes this the end all for SD principle. I like to learn new things.


----------



## Errant108 (Jun 2, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Do you even remember what Kukkiwon TKD was before it became a sport by there government or are you just talking to talk. We are all trying to be civilized here.  Did you ever train over sea?



I've trained with people who trained directly under Hwang Gi, Song Deuksong, Chong Suhong.  I've trained with Hee Il Cho and Philip Ameris.  I've trained in TKD so old they still called it Korean Karate, and so new that I lost in gyorugi to the 3rd best in the US that year.  What you're attempting here is a logical fallacy known as appeal to authority.  It doesn't work on any level.

If you want to continue discussion with me, base it in logic.  Not emotion.



terryl965 said:


> I would love to hear you tell people like Roy Kurban, Skipper Mullins and others that they are worthless and they are in that same dogpile since both have a KKW certificate.



Your response is not logical.

There are many reputable fighters who have Kukkiwon grade.

The question is whether or not their Kukkiwon training is where they derive their self-defense curriculum from.

If Skipper Mullins tells me that what he teaches is Kukki Taegwondo, then it is completely logical for me to dismiss whatever he teachers as being worthless, since as we have seen, the SD curriculum of the Kukkiwon is largely worthless.

If Skipper Mullins tells me that he has a SD curriculum that he has developed through his years of competition and cross-training, he may be worth listening to.

In the former case, he attempts to use his non-Kukkiwon training to justify his Kukkiwon rank.

In the second, he does not.

Do you understand the difference?

Please base your response in logical discourse and not emotion.



terryl965 said:


> Have a wonderful life.



I originally intended to, but I am afraid it is far too late for that.



terryl965 said:


> Tell me a little about your art *Cheolryun Gwonbeop, *what makes this the end all for SD principle. I like to learn new things.



Red herring and borderline ad hom.

I'm more than willing to, but it is irrelevant to this conversation.  Feel free to start a separate thread where you can call out my qualifications for discussing self-defense.


----------



## newGuy12 (Jun 2, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> You will never save TKD.  You may not realize it, but you're fighting the South Korean government.  You will lose.  You are destined to remain outliers.



Not so, I will not believe it.  I have seen a few people make big changes in other areas.  Its the same with the TKD.  Don't doubt the power of committed people.

All it takes is for those who know to be accessible to those who wish to know.  And this is already the case.  So now it is only a matter of time. ALL of TKD will not be affected, but MUCH of it will.  We are on a collision course with revival of self-defense in many Dojangs.  The KKW (or anyone else) will not stop it, once some "critical mass" is realized.


----------



## Errant108 (Jun 2, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> Not so, I will not believe it.  I have seen a few people make big changes in other areas.  Its the same with the TKD.  Don't doubt the power of committed people.
> 
> All it takes is for those who know to be accessible to those who wish to know.  And this is already the case.  So now it is only a matter of time. ALL of TKD will not be affected, but MUCH of it will.  We are on a collision course with revival of self-defense in many Dojangs.  The KKW (or anyone else) will not stop it, once some "critical mass" is realized.




Good luck then.  I do not believe you will ever reach that critical mass, but I wish you all the luck in the world.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 2, 2008)

eh,

You guys all know I dont have much use for the KKW. or any large org. for that matter. 

But i will give anyone the benefit of the doubt. They say they are teaching SD oriented TKD, I will believe them until I see for myself that they are not.

Plus, i figure it like this.

KKW TKD can be viable, SD wise, if taught that way.

WTF however......................

it is a fine line, but an important one I think.


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## exile (Jun 2, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> ...There are many reputable fighters who have Kukkiwon grade.
> 
> The question is whether or not their Kukkiwon training is where they derive their self-defense curriculum from.



But that's just the point I was getting at earlier, E. Terry's SD curriculum has nothing at all to do with what's coming out, or what came out, of the KKW. The KKW part of his program is just about his sparring and forms competitors. The SD material is completely independent of that. With maybe a couple of exceptions in this discussion,  _no one is in disagreement on that general point._ None of us who are currently talking believe that the KKW's genuine focus of interest is close-quarters self-defense, whatever pretenses they make to that effect. 

There are institutional changes in the wind which are going to lead to a major split within TKD in the next few years, as the inevitable result of the KKW's attempt to drive the technical development of TKD in a very different direction from what most practitionerswho do not have either the capability for, or interest in, becoming athletic competitors in sport TKDreally want. It's going to happen and it's going to happen soon, just as the 'applied karate' movement associated with the bunkai-based view of karate forms and the British Combat Association approach to stress-testing MA effectiveness is the most rapidly growing component of karate in England. They're a bit ahead of us there but we'll catch up. Meanwhile, I think it's a major mistake to see schism and division where people are in fact actually of the same mind...


----------



## Errant108 (Jun 2, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> eh,
> 
> You guys all know I dont have much use for the KKW. or any large org. for that matter.
> 
> ...



Unlike you, I don't give the benefit of the doubt.

I say, "Show me."


----------



## newGuy12 (Jun 2, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> eh,
> 
> You guys all know I dont have much use for the KKW. or any large org. for that matter.



It seems to me that being affiliated with the KKW does not hold near as much importance as it once did.  If a student in our school wishes for some KKW Dan rank, it can be arranged, but it is no longer "matter of course".





Twin Fist said:


> KKW TKD can be viable, SD wise, if taught that way.



Yes, of course -- but self defense is a matter of degree, let's remember.  If someone only learns a few motions, but practices them for some time, that ALONE can give them SOME way to strike and block.  Its just that these threads are concerned with schools (Instructors) who wish to OPTIMIZE that self-defense, instead of it being an after thought, you know.

Now, I want to say this -- above, I did not mean, "The KKW will be reformed!  Individual Instructors will impose their will jointly, and the KKW' s mission will then change."   No.

What WILL (and IS) happening is that changes are happening from the "bottom up" -- one school changes.  Some other school changes.  With the internet these changes spread faster. 

Those who take a great interest in some Olympic style of freesparring will out of necessity pay good attention to all of what that means, but, this is only part of the community.   I would hazard to guess that in the future the sway of the KukkiWon, or its importance will diminish.

Note that this is not meant to be some disrespect.  Its just that things change.  Institutions lose their prominence.  Its just the way things are.


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## Errant108 (Jun 2, 2008)

exile said:


> But that's just the point I was getting at earlier, E. Terry's SD curriculum has nothing at all to do with what's coming out, or what came out, of the KKW. The KKW part of his program is just about his sparring and forms competitors.



If that's the case, then his arguments against my statements don't make any sense.

Either he's defending Kukki Taekwondo or he's not.



exile said:


> There are institutional changes in the wind which are going to lead to a major split within TKD in the next few years, as the inevitable result of the KKW's attempt to drive the technical development of TKD in a very different direction from what most practitioners&#8212;who do not have either the capability for, or interest in, becoming athletic competitors in sport TKD&#8212;really want. It's going to happen and it's going to happen soon, just as the 'applied karate' movement associated with the bunkai-based view of karate forms and the British Combat Association approach to stress-testing MA effectiveness is the most rapidly growing component of karate in England. They're a bit ahead of us there but we'll catch up. Meanwhile, I think it's a major mistake to see schism and division where people are in fact actually of the same mind...




I'll believe it when I see it.


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## newGuy12 (Jun 2, 2008)

exile said:


> Meanwhile, I think it's a major mistake to see schism and division where people are in fact actually of the same mind...



Yes.  The "disagreement" here is an illusion -- it is a misunderstanding.  I'm glad that you brought that out (again), because I wanted to say it, but I cannot express myself so well as to bring it to light.


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## Errant108 (Jun 3, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> If that's the case, then his arguments against my statements don't make any sense.
> 
> Either he's defending Kukki Taekwondo or he's not.
> 
> ...





newGuy12 said:


> Yes.  The "disagreement" here is an illusion -- it is a misunderstanding.  I'm glad that you brought that out (again), because I wanted to say it, but I cannot express myself so well as to bring it to light.



Bingo.

I have said nothing to preclude teaching TKD as a viable self-defense curriculum.  However, the arguments that were brought forward were not logical.  They will not stand up against the larger MA & SD community.

This is my challenge to those who do TKD.  If you're going to teach functional SD... BRING IT.  Show us that what you have to offer works in an alive environment.  Show us a TKD you can be proud of.  Stop defending bullcrap just because it bears the name TKD.  Call out those who promote BS in your art, even if it costs you standing and face, even if they strip you of your rank & kick you out.


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 3, 2008)

> Either he's defending Kukki Taekwondo or he's not.



More complicated (subtle) than that...

He's saying that KKW does have a self-defense curriculum, but is not claiming it's effectiveness or that he teaches it or follows it.  Just making the point that that KKW does at least include it in it's offerings.

He's also saying that he offers KKW certification for those who want it for international competition and other places where having certification is needed, but he's not saying that KKW or WTF orgs define the way he teaches or trains



In other words he's defending KKW at points where they can honestly be defended, but not in points where he doesn't believe they can...but it's not an all or nothing, either/or proposal

Membership in an organization does not mean the organization defines who you are


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## SageGhost83 (Jun 3, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> I have said nothing to preclude teaching TKD as a viable self-defense curriculum. However, the arguments that were brought forward were not logical. They will not stand up against the larger MA & SD community.
> 
> This is my challenge to those who do TKD. If you're going to teach functional SD... BRING IT. Show us that what you have to offer works in an alive environment. Show us a TKD you can be proud of. Stop defending bullcrap just because it bears the name TKD. Call out those who promote BS in your art, even if it costs you standing and face, even if they strip you of your rank & kick you out.


 
I don't know if you have been paying attention or if you even bothered to read through any of the threads related to this topic, but everybody here is in total agreement with you concerning the anger toward what passes as "viable TKD" and the need to get back to the SD roots of the style. Yes, more and more people are starting to call out those who promote BS in our art, why do you think the term "Mcdojang" is being bandied about so much more these days? Have you even bothered to read about the PioneerTKD organization that is focused primarily on SD, stress testing techniques, and bringing the style back to roots? What about the evolution of TKD and the new orgs that are forming to break away to teach their own SD oriented curriculum? Unless you have trained with everybody who is part of TKD and you know for a fact what *every* instructor teaches in *every* school, then why make gross generalizations about TKD or any style for that matter? We know what is wrong with TKD - We get it! We are doing our part to fix it, and others are following suit. It won't be an overnight thing, but you've got to start somewhere, and at least we are doing something about it like you have suggested. You are calling us out when, in fact, we agree with you and are doing the very things that you are suggesting. Btw, didn't you say that you no longer practice TKD? If this is so, THEN WHY ON EARTH DO YOU EVEN CARE ABOUT WHAT WE ARE DOING OR WHY WE ARE DOING IT!? Or do you just have a chip on your shoulder and you feel like trolling?


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## SageGhost83 (Jun 3, 2008)

Why are you assuming things about Terry when you don't know a damn thing about him or the way he trains/teaches? You have no idea what he teaches, how he teaches, or how he works his self defense components. Are you in his class? Do you train with him? If not, then you would do yourself a real favor to not make assumptions about him or what he does because you really don't know about either. The fact that you made such sweeping generalizations to begin with is really saying a lot in and of itself...


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## Errant108 (Jun 3, 2008)

Sage,

Go back and read what I said.  You've attacked me about things I didn't say.


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## terryl965 (Jun 3, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> More complicated (subtle) than that...
> 
> He's saying that KKW does have a self-defense curriculum, but is not claiming it's effectiveness or that he teaches it or follows it. Just making the point that that KKW does at least include it in it's offerings.
> 
> ...


 

FF Thanks you so much one has never been defined by an org, one is defined by a lifetime of devotion to application that are of SD principle,
Just on a side note U have also study Okinawa Karate, Kempo, Ground work, that is right it was not called grappling back then, Akido, judo,kung fu. But I stay with TKD because of tought it to me. Also combat Hapkido.

Defending what they do is one thing, I have never said I teach anybody there SD material only they have some. Please read what is being said.


----------



## terryl965 (Jun 3, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> Why are you assuming things about Terry when you don't know a damn thing about him or the way he trains/teaches? You have no idea what he teaches, how he teaches, or how he works his self defense components. Are you in his class? Do you train with him? If not, then you would do yourself a real favor to not make assumptions about him or what he does because you really don't know about either. The fact that you made such sweeping generalizations to begin with is really saying a lot in and of itself...


 
Thanks Sageghost83 for the backup, some people will judge before they know, other will just keep saying the same thing over and over. Yet there are those view that can see past those three little letters TKD and remember when it was a means of SD. Like Errant said he trained with some people that came over what he got then was that water down version, that most westerners got back in those early days. I kinda feel sorry for people that actually never experience some hard core TKD. Like I have said in a number of thread some people look at what we do and say that is not TKD and I keep saying the same as my GM if I am teaching you it, it is know for I teach TKD. With that being said, lets see where this thread goes it has been a blast to get people opinion here and it has been civilized which is great to. Keep this type of converstation up and we may change the way people type on a chat line and then who know the world could follow suit.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 3, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> A poom is fine with me as long as they and the parents understand it is not a real adult BB.


That is my feeling; it is also important to me that the _student_ knows that it isn't an adult blackbelt.  That is why I don't believe that poom rank students should be allowed to _wear_ a black belt; kids don't differentiate the way adults do, and the tendency is to simply say, 'I'm a blackbelt' if the school allows them to wear one.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Jun 3, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> That is my feeling; it is also important to me that the _student_ knows that it isn't an adult blackbelt. That is why I don't believe that poom rank students should be allowed to _wear_ a black belt; kids don't differentiate the way adults do, and the tendency is to simply say, 'I'm a blackbelt' if the school allows them to wear one.
> 
> Daniel


 
That is why they have poom belts to bad so many schools never use them, it would sure help with the way people precieves TKD. Thank you fro your insight.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 3, 2008)

Thank YOU Terry!  Most of my insight is simply the result of reading material by or conversing directly with those more knowledgeable and experienced than myself.  I have some small perspective as a TKD practitioner.

It is too bad that more schools don't use the poom belt; the certificate _does_ say poom, but I think that a lot of school owners fear for their business if there isn't a 'black' belt being presented to young students who's parents want to be done with it after two years and see a belt for their kids as necessary feather in their kids' cap and in their own parenting caps.  '_My_ child has a blackbelt, _and_ is a member of the debate team.'  

The thing that saddens me most about this mentality is that it is a belt that is seen as having importance rather than the _knowledge and technique_ that the belt is _supposed_ to represent.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Jun 3, 2008)

Daniel I agree one hundred percent, to bad there is not alot more folks that understand that. :asian:

*The thing that saddens me most about this mentality is that it is a belt that is seen as having importance rather than the knowledge and technique that the belt is supposed to represent.
*


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## Tswolfman (Jun 3, 2008)

Unfortuately alot of people don't know any better then the belt is just a belt. I know of way to many people that are so disillusioned because of other schools just handing out belts that they don't want to keep trying. It is so hard to talk to people when they keep up the wrong attitude about what a "Black Belt " is and what it isn't. IT IS WHAT YOU AS A PERSON MAKES IT TO BE. Some Black belts are better then others. that is just the way it is. Too bad most people can't get that in there heads.


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## dortiz (Jun 3, 2008)

A Black Belt is only as good as the student and the teacher that presented it.
A degree from Harvard is not the same as a degree from the Harvey technical institute of Bayonne.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 3, 2008)

dortiz said:


> A Black Belt is only as good as the student and the teacher that presented it.
> A degree from Harvard is not the same as a degree from the Harvey technical institute of Bayonne.


Good analogy!

Daniel


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## SageGhost83 (Jun 3, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> Sage,
> 
> Go back and read what I said. You've attacked me about things I didn't say.


 
You implied that you know Terry, what he trains/teaches, and the quality of his training/teaching: 



Errant108 said:


> That's fine.
> 
> Just understand that when someone says, "I do Kukki TKD," *ie. you*, someone like me is completely justified in dismissing you as a viable instructor for self-defense training.


 
How are you justified in blindly assuming something about an instructor that you have never trained under/with? It is just an ignorant, sweeping generalization about individuals just because they belong to a particular organization despite the fact that no two people teach exactly the same way or incorporate the same exact material into *their own* programs. Such is the fallacy of dismissing someone as a viable instructor of self-defense training merely on the basis of what organization they are affiliated with. Some people are affiliated with Kukki, but they also add their own self-defense components to what they teach and the total package is more than adaquate. Heck, there are even WTF schools that add elements of Hapkido and/or BJJ to their curriculum as self-defense components to address this need. You say that doing this isn't Kukki, but who is to say that Kukki can't evolve and grow in this manner? Who is to say that Kukki won't revise its curriculum to include this material in this particular area? Arts are still growing and orgs are still upgrading and revising their standards, you know?


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## newGuy12 (Jun 3, 2008)

whoa!  wrong thread!  how did that happen?  I have made a mistake, this is not a real post here.


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## terryl965 (Jun 3, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> whoa! wrong thread! how did that happen? I have made a mistake, this is not a real post here.


 
Wrong right thread, we love people with opinion.


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## StuartA (Jun 3, 2008)

Okay.. as my name was brought up.

I see exactly what Errant108 is saying, but I also see exactly what Terry and others are saying.

So I take both them out of it and put myself in the frame.

Many will say (incorrectly I may add) that I teach ITF TKD. ITF TKD has hosinsul.. but it mostly sucks.. Terry point! I wont back ITF purely because it has hosinsul.. Errant108 point!

What I will say is this.. the TKD world need people like Terry & Errant108, they keep others on their toes and aint afraid to expose the BS associated with it all. And the WTF world need people like Terry, period.

Errant108 is right.. there will be no mass changes (IMO), Terry and others are doing this a school at a time.. however, we are about to challenge that way of thinking.. Terry is a major player in that regards, wouldnt it be great if Errant108 was too!!

Stuart

Ps. Errant108.. with regards to the bayonet defences I agree that both hands should be kept on the weapon if possible.. undoubtibly so.. control of the weapon is the primary concern. I disagee on 2 points however, 1) that the UFC allow downward elbows to the spine.. AFAIK (which isnt much TBH) spine attacks in the UFC are banned!  2) That elbow strikes to the spine are low percentage techniques... by what sourse.. I think this may come from elbowing to the back with the tricep (ie. incorrectly done), rather than the spine with the point of the elbow.. I know if I have to do it.. someones gonna be in much pain!


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## terryl965 (Jun 3, 2008)

Thanks Stuart I am not saying I endorse KKW but they have SD, none that I would ever use but they have it. I agree errant108 would be a great addition to what movements are being done.


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## StuartA (Jun 3, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Thanks Stuart I am not saying I endorse KKW but they have SD, none that I would ever use but they have it. I agree errant108 would be a great addition to what movements are being done.


 
I know you utilse what the KKW offers as it benefits some of what you want... I also know you arnt tied by them.

Stuart


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 3, 2008)

KKW is a body for issuing certifications based upon a basic cirriculum.  Nothing more.  The WTF is a TKD sanctioning body for sport TKD.  Nothing more.  Clubs and schools can benefit from being part of an organization; benefits such as insurrance and the fact that many customers will simply not sign up, no matter how good the cirriculum and instructors are, _if_ the school is not affiliated with a larger organization.

It may _sound_ stupid, but the bulk of the American public will consider a school to be unworthy of their consideration _without_ some sort of affiliation.  People are far too association conscious when it comes to martial arts.  

But in all fairness, it is a part of the rest of our culture.  We won't bank with anyone not FDIC.  A court nominee is frowned upon without endorsement from the American bar association.  And candidates for political office, no matter how qualified, get _no_ traction without being part of one of the two major parties.  

So why are we so shocked that the very association conscious public that we seek to bring into our schools demand certification by some larger organization?  And who can blame them?  Nobody wants to be a sucker and the public mentality is that without the backing of a large organization, they have no guarantee that your school is legit.  

The fact that we see it in reverse is not the customer's problem; it is our own.  And we made it.  McDojang owners using the very organization they seek assurance from to fleece and defraud the public and an organization too large and too lax to properly police itself combine to create the host of problems facing taekwondo today.

Some of us, like Terry, have chosen to stay under the umbrella of organizations like the Kukkiwon, providing the quality instruction that people hope a KKW certification implies.  Others succumb to what they feel they need to do to stay in business, providing watered down instruction and belts.  Others refuse to do either and go independent.  Still others leave taekwondo entirely.  

Those who choose Terry's path have, in my opinion, the hardest time.  Customers will be unaccustomed to the more rigorous training, some life martial artists will refuse to take them seriously just because of KKW affiliation, and for every one Terry, there are ten dojangs with KKW affiliation that offer an easy, two year black belt with watered down ciriculum that has virtually no self defense value, but who's students actually _think_ they can fight.  These easy school have slick marketing slogans that resonate with the American public.  Does 'we are a blackbelt school' ring any bells?  Serious martial artists who refuse to look beneath the surface of a KKW cert simply lump a Terry school in with all of the rest.  

The small independent school can trade on another theme that resonates with the American public: small=good service and quality instruction.  Does, 'we are not a big box store' ring any bells?  Serious martial artists will also be more likely to look at the small school and lend their credibility.

So, where does all of this go?  Its up to us really.  The future of any martial art is in the hands of its practitioners who one day become its caretakers.  This thread starts off asking about taekwondo and its perception amongst practitioners of other arts.  But that is the wrong place to start, no offense to the OP.  The place to start is _within_ taekwondo, not without. 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Daniel


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## Errant108 (Jun 3, 2008)

Guys, I'm tired.  This is about the billionth time I've had this conversation.  If someone actually wants to have a rational, logical discussion on this subject, let me know.  I really don't care enough anymore to waste my time slogging through fallacies & ad hominum.

Stuart, you're an asset to the art, and I've always enjoyed our conversations.


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## newGuy12 (Jun 3, 2008)

StuartA said:


> Errant108 is right.. there will be no mass changes (IMO), Terry and others are doing this *a school at a time..*



Yes, one Dojang full of students at a time.  This is the kind of "can do" attitude that makes a difference.  No one person can change the world, but change can be brought to the immediate sphere of influence.



terryl965 said:


> I agree errant108 would be a great addition to what movements are being done.



Hear, hear!

Yes, those who are not afraid to speak their minds and bring this out on the table for discussion.  Here is to holding the standards high, as they should be!  The Students are the better for it!!!  The real students do not wish for just an easy way, but the EFFECTIVE way -- they wish to know the best TKD that they can absorb as individuals.  The true students will not give up, but will rise to meet standards held high. 

Of course this can "thin the herd" of the Dojang, but some Instructors do not wish simply for money only!  They will not compromise their standards just for revenue!


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## terryl965 (Jun 3, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> Guys, I'm tired. This is about the billionth time I've had this conversation. If someone actually wants to have a rational, logical discussion on this subject, let me know. I really don't care enough anymore to waste my time slogging through fallacies & ad hominum.
> 
> Stuart, you're an asset to the art, and I've always enjoyed our conversations.


 
Well at least you think Stuart is an asset, to bad you do not feel the same with me, maybe one day we can meet and train.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 One of the main reasonI am with Stuart is we belief in the same things and that is the core of TKD everything else is just padding for some.


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## Errant108 (Jun 3, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Well at least you think Stuart is an asset, to bad you do not feel the same with me, maybe one day we can meet and train.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All I know about you is that you say you teach Kukki TKD.  When I asked YoungMan about this beastly Kukki SD training he was repping, you posted links to some of the most atrocious teaching on the internet.  What would you expect me to think?

I have seen Stuart's training methods.  I have seen his students fight.  There are things that I would do differently, but overall, I am pleased with what I see.

On every forum, there are TKD practitioners (or Wing Chun practitioners, or Bujinkan practitioners, or kenpo practitioners) who get up in arms when people criticize their training.

When the critics point to the piss poor public examples representing these arts, the constant response is "Yes, but we don't train like that!"

So the critics then ask to see what "THE R34L" TKD, or Chun, or ninjerism looks like...

And one of two things happens.

Either A)  the protestors post videos or spar or what not, and the critics see that the so-called R34L sucks just as they thought it would...

or, more commonly...

B)  deafening silence. At least until the next critic comes along, and the protests of "Yes, but that's not how we train" rise again...

I've trained in almost every facet of TKD, from sport to things so traditional that it could only be called Korean karate.  I've trained with people who were there when TKD was founded, not the watered-down training you said I had.

I want to believe, Terry.  I'm just too skeptical to cut anyone any slack.  I won't give the benefit of the doubt.


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## SageGhost83 (Jun 3, 2008)

It seems that you already had come to your conclusion before you even participated and were not going to budge from that conclusion no matter what anybody posted. So that begs the question - why did you even bother to begin with? You said that you have had this conversation billions of times and it just ends the same way, so why do you keep having it? If you don't care enough anymore and you feel that you are wasting your time, then why do you even take the time to post in the first place? You present your argument in a way - you have come to a conclusion and anybody who doesn't respond or do anything exactly like you is illogical and irrational. A bit narrowminded and arrogant, wouldn't you say? You obviously have a chip on your shoulder because you have done nothing but go after people who, in essence, agree with you. My main disagreement with you is the fact that you blindly assume things about people you don't know and that you make gross generalizations about people's training when you really don't know what they do or how they do it. If you are so cynical and you have come to such a strong conclusion that nobody is going to shake it then why don't you just ignore us. We'll just go on doing the very things that, ironically, you say needs to be done to make TKD more SD oriented. Btw, nobody needs to prove anything to you or to anybody else for that matter. If people are just going to get "up in arms" as you say, then why are you wasting your time criticizing them in the first place? You wouldn't be out trolling, now would you?


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## Kacey (Jun 3, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> I want to believe, Terry.  I'm just too skeptical to cut anyone any slack.  I won't give the benefit of the doubt.



Skepticism is healthy.  Making decisions based on assumptions, however, is not.

I've seen Terry and his wife and kids train (but not his class; sadly, my mother had me too scheduled in last time I was in Dallas to see more), and they've attended my class, and worked out with my sahbum, who is a VII Dan, the student of a IX Dan, who was himself a student of Gen. Choi, Hong Hi, and at one point the VP of the USTF until his integrity caused him to resign - I have no doubts about his abilities or those of his students.  I say that as a member of the YomChi Taekwon-Do Association; we came from the USTF and ITF, and left when, in our opinion, the pursuit of money overcame the quest for excellence.  Terry is a quality instructor, who produces quality students.  The fact that he includes the Kukkiwon curriculum in his training (note that I say "includes", not "limits himself to") does not reduce the quality of his training.


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## SageGhost83 (Jun 3, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Skepticism is healthy. Making decisions based on assumptions, however, is not.


 
My sentiments exactly! I would like to add that treating those assumptions as some kind of concrete truth and using them to go after others that you don't even know is also not healthy.


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 3, 2008)

arguably, Errant108, the onus would be on you as well in like manner.  It's relatively easy to take a video of someone's training and critique it on many levels.  

(As an aside, I for one have rarely seen any videos that were supposed to be "this is how we train.  They seem to usually be highly stylized examples of the techniques to work, but not the intensity and realism needed to train said techniques effectively... in other words, technical examples, not training examples)

Anyway, in fairness, it would be good to present what you consider and train as effective self-defense in your art.  (if you have and I missed it, my apologies, as I've been only following this thread on occasion)


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## SageGhost83 (Jun 3, 2008)

He keeps saying that so-and-so "sucks", so I would like to know what constitutes "suckage" in his view. At least something to work with other than "blah blah blah sucks because my own blind assumptions say so" :lol2:.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 3, 2008)

.....too many..............jokes...........brain............exploding................make it stop........


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## terryl965 (Jun 3, 2008)

I would like to add one thing here OK just for the record, never did I ever say I teach KKW TKD, what I said was I am KKW TKD two different gems here people. I too have trained witth some of the best possible people in TKD and at no time do I question any thing they say. I have been KKW certified because My GM did so got my 4th years ago so I did not need anyone else to get a KKW and be under them. I stand alone until recently and have choosen a path with Stuart and a few others to bring back something that has been long over due. I started teaching WTF styke of sparring only 7 years ago and have been very lucky with some of my fighter mainly because they do not play tag when there spare they hit and hit hard, the only reason we do sport sid eis my oldest sons dream of being in the Olympics with TKD and for that to happen he needs this, We do alot of point, continuous and Olympic sparring. My BB have a three day test for Dan rank and a 6 hours test for poom rank, most people cannot even do what my student do, period. I never once said I was the best just that I train people the best way I know how and so far it works, I also train Leo on CQC, so I must know something I also have people come to me about training again I must be doing something right.

I do not care what you or anybody else beliefs or thinks about me, when I test in a year and yes I will be flying over sea's to test in front of Stuart and some other it will be for me and no-one else. I do not need anybody approvel about me and what I stand for. Been training since I was two just like my son's. I enjoy all aspect of Martial Arts and mine is a life journey for me and one day I will find enternal peace within me.

I am glad to see so many jump up to protect me and I appreciate it but you see I need no protection if I did everybody and there Moma would never know I did Olympic within my school, I make it public so I do not need to make excuses. It is my school I built it worked it and clean it, I am the janitor and head instructor, a mentor and a father to alot of people beside my kids. I am the person my father and GM would be proud to say they trained and that is all that matters to me. I do not need you or anybody else questioning my motives, see I do not care about rank and I do not care what people think about me beside my family. I can die anyday and walk up to God and say I did everything I was suppose to and a little bit more.

My heart is full of joy and is pure of people with negitivity. One day we shall meet either here or in the big dojaang in the sky and will look back on this and laugh until then I will keep saying what my signature says........
*Changing Tae Kwon Do one person at a time.*

*Bringing back Tae Kwon Do one student at a time.* *I live by these word and have hope that ine day it will happen*


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## StuartA (Jun 4, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> (As an aside, I for one have rarely seen any videos that were supposed to be "this is how we train.


 





 
:ultracool:jediduel:


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 4, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Skepticism is healthy. Making decisions based on assumptions, however, is not.


 
Skepticism is great as long as you reserve a healthy portion of skepticism about skepticism itself. Otherwise you really aren't being skeptical.



> I've seen Terry and his wife and kids train (but not his class; sadly, my mother had me too scheduled in last time I was in Dallas to see more), and they've attended my class, and worked out with my sahbum, who is a VII Dan, the student of a IX Dan, who was himself a student of Gen. Choi, Hong Hi, and at one point the VP of the USTF until his integrity caused him to resign - I have no doubts about his abilities or those of his students. I say that as a member of the YomChi Taekwon-Do Association; we came from the USTF and ITF, and left when, in our opinion, the pursuit of money overcame the quest for excellence.


 
Kacey, I was under the impression that GM Lang was always a student of GM Sereff before he split form the USTF. When did he become a direct student of Gen. Choi? Does he have any interesting stories about training with the General as his student? 



> Terry is a quality instructor, who produces quality students. The fact that he includes the Kukkiwon curriculum in his training (note that I say "includes", not "limits himself to") does not reduce the quality of his training.


 
Speaking from my own very limited experience with Kukki TKD, the Kukkiwon's official curriculum is extremely limited. When I was training at a WTF club back in college the Master Instructor, who is a Korean and was fairly well known in the USTU back in the day, included ITF tuls along with some throws and joint locks to round out the "official" curriculum. 

Pax,

Chris


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 4, 2008)

StuartA said:


> :ultracool:jediduel:



Nice!!! Thx


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## terryl965 (Jun 4, 2008)

chrispillertkd said:


> Skepticism is great as long as you reserve a healthy portion of skepticism about skepticism itself. Otherwise you really aren't being skeptical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Chris and everyone else please let me say this one more time, we do not run the KKW curriculum we just get those that need the KKW certs for competition only. I do the Tae Gueks,Palgues and the Chom-Ji sets of poomsae and do my style of Self defense which is totally different than anything the KKW does. I hope this helps but somehow I really doubt it.

P.S. Errant why do you choose not to see we are on the same side of the street, remember I did not say same type of training just on the street.


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## Kacey (Jun 4, 2008)

chrispillertkd said:


> Kacey, I was under the impression that GM Lang was always a student of GM Sereff before he split form the USTF. When did he become a direct student of Gen. Choi? Does he have any interesting stories about training with the General as his student?



Actually, GM Lang started under David Kim (if I'm recalling the man's name correctly) at CU-Boulder; at one point, he was training simultaneously under his first instructor and GM Sereff.  As some point he became a student of Gen. Choi; if you look at my post I didn't say when, just that it happened.


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## Errant108 (Jun 4, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> It seems that you already had come to your conclusion before you even participated and were not going to budge from that conclusion no matter what anybody posted. So that begs the question - why did you even bother to begin with? You said that you have had this conversation billions of times and it just ends the same way, so why do you keep having it? If you don't care enough anymore and you feel that you are wasting your time, then why do you even take the time to post in the first place? You present your argument in a way - you have come to a conclusion and anybody who doesn't respond or do anything exactly like you is illogical and irrational. A bit narrowminded and arrogant, wouldn't you say? You obviously have a chip on your shoulder because you have done nothing but go after people who, in essence, agree with you. My main disagreement with you is the fact that you blindly assume things about people you don't know and that you make gross generalizations about people's training when you really don't know what they do or how they do it. If you are so cynical and you have come to such a strong conclusion that nobody is going to shake it then why don't you just ignore us. We'll just go on doing the very things that, ironically, you say needs to be done to make TKD more SD oriented. Btw, nobody needs to prove anything to you or to anybody else for that matter. If people are just going to get "up in arms" as you say, then why are you wasting your time criticizing them in the first place? You wouldn't be out trolling, now would you?



1)  You have not understood a thing I've said.  You've misinterpreted everything I stated as an attack on Terry, rather than actually trying to understand what I said.  I haven't attacked Terry at all, or accused him of teaching anything.

B)  Rather than respond with logical discourse, you'd prefer to attempt to derail by inquiring as to what my motivations may be, red herring and ad hom, all rolled into one.

If you're not interested in logical, rational, adult discourse, please do not waste my time any further.



SageGhost83 said:


> He keeps saying that so-and-so "sucks", so I would like to know what constitutes "suckage" in his view. At least something to work with other than "blah blah blah sucks because my own blind assumptions say so" :lol2:.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053

Watch the whole video.

I have not made any blind assumptions.  Go back to my analysis of what was offered to me of "self-defense".


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## Errant108 (Jun 4, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Skepticism is healthy.  Making decisions based on assumptions, however, is not.
> 
> I've seen Terry and his wife and kids train (but not his class; sadly, my mother had me too scheduled in last time I was in Dallas to see more), and they've attended my class, and worked out with my sahbum, who is a VII Dan, the student of a IX Dan, who was himself a student of Gen. Choi, Hong Hi, and at one point the VP of the USTF until his integrity caused him to resign - I have no doubts about his abilities or those of his students.  I say that as a member of the YomChi Taekwon-Do Association; we came from the USTF and ITF, and left when, in our opinion, the pursuit of money overcame the quest for excellence.  Terry is a quality instructor, who produces quality students.  The fact that he includes the Kukkiwon curriculum in his training (note that I say "includes", not "limits himself to") does not reduce the quality of his training.



I'm glad you find his teachings valuable.

I don't know you, I don't know Yomchi, so, while I appreciate your support of your friend, it does not answer my questions.


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## Errant108 (Jun 4, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> arguably, Errant108, the onus would be on you as well in like manner.  It's relatively easy to take a video of someone's training and critique it on many levels.



I didn't make the claim.



FearlessFreep said:


> Anyway, in fairness, it would be good to present what you consider and train as effective self-defense in your art.  (if you have and I missed it, my apologies, as I've been only following this thread on occasion)



I've already offered to answer those questions, just not in this thread.


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## Errant108 (Jun 4, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I would like to add one thing here OK just for the record, never did I ever say I teach KKW TKD, what I said was I am KKW TKD two different gems here people.



No, you didn't.  You're absolutely right.

Let's go back and review this discussion.

YoungMan states that Kukkiwon self-defense is an entirely different beast.  I request more information on this Kukki SD.

Your response is to find a former ROK Marine with Kukki certification.

Logical Problem 1:  ROKMC Hand-to-Hand has nothing to do with Kukkiwon certification.

Thus, my response, that if what they are teaching, re: SD, is not the official Kukkiwon curriculum, it is worthless.  Meaning, it has no bearing on YoungMan's claims about Kukkiwon's self-defense.

We discuss what the Kukkiwon's curriculum entails, and you provide me with a link to bayonet vs. empty hand step-sparring.  We both agree that the example is horrible.

ERGO:  The Kukkiwon's OFFICIAL SD CURRICULUM is "t3h suckage" as SageGhost so eloquently put it.

Now, please, everyone follow along here:

*Argument:*
1)  Kukkiwon has a self-defense curriculum.
2)  Kukkiwon's official self-defense curriculum has been shown to train in questionable tactics and training methods.
3)  Ergo, those claiming to teach Kukki Taegwondo should be regarded with great skepticism when it comes to self-defense.

Terry, you've gone on to say that you don't teach the Kukkiwon's self-defense curriculum.  That removes you from that argument. What I'm left with though, is that I know nothing of what you actually teach.  So, again,  I'm skeptical.  Show me what it is you teach in regards to using Taegwondo for self-defense.



terryl965 said:


> P.S. Errant why do you choose not to see we are on the same side of the street, remember I did not say same type of training just on the street.



I haven't chosen anything.

You want functional TKD.

Great!

I'm happy for you!

Wanting it and having it are two different things.  I'm glad you're confident in what you know and teach.  That's not a reason I should share that confidence though.  I don't know what you teach, I don't know how you train.

Look at it this way, would you recommend to a close friend that they come train with me?  Without knowing a thing about what I teach or how I train?


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## terryl965 (Jun 4, 2008)

Errant if you came up from people that you was good Yes, the peopel I hang around know what I look for and so on. It is calle dblind trust which in these day and age it is hard to have.

I would love to find the time to come and see you and train with you. I am not being funny just I love to see what other people have to offer. Like I said for the most part mt SD is a mix of alot of what works for me, so whether it would work for you who know, I am sure we could learn from each other though.

By the way I appreciate all the courtesy you have shown during this converstation.:asian:


----------



## Errant108 (Jun 4, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Errant if you came up from people that you was good Yes, the peopel I hang around know what I look for and so on. It is calle dblind trust which in these day and age it is hard to have.



Blind trust is something I don't value.  Difference of opinion, I suppose.



terryl965 said:


> I would love to find the time to come and see you and train with you. I am not being funny just I love to see what other people have to offer. Like I said for the most part mt SD is a mix of alot of what works for me, so whether it would work for you who know, I am sure we could learn from each other though.



I'm looking at having a seminar weekend with other instructors later this summer.  I'll keep you in the loop.



terryl965 said:


> By the way I appreciate all the courtesy you have shown during this converstation.:asian:



No worries.

Like I said, it was never a personal attack.


----------



## SageGhost83 (Jun 4, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> 1) You have not understood a thing I've said. You've misinterpreted everything I stated as an attack on Terry, rather than actually trying to understand what I said. I haven't attacked Terry at all, or accused him of teaching anything.
> 
> B) Rather than respond with logical discourse, you'd prefer to attempt to derail by inquiring as to what my motivations may be, red herring and ad hom, all rolled into one.
> 
> ...



An aliveness video. That is nice. The man in the video showed a clear lack of understanding concerning the very purpose of forms to begin with, and he failed to understand that you can practice forms *and* work alive training into what you do - that is certainly how I do it. They train two different areas, but they are both proven training methods in their respective areas, so why toss either one? Heck, I even put the two together at times just to mix it up and add an extra dimension to my forms training. You don't have to choose one or the other, you can do both and reap the benefits of both. Boxers work aliveness training in via sparring, and they also shadowbox which is just about as alive as forms training. I still don't see what you are trying to say concerning suckage, I thought that you were going to define it in your own words rather than hide behind another man's video. So you are saying that anything that isn't practiced alive constitutes "suckage"? Well kind sir, in the area of SD, I must agree with you hands down, and to say yet again that everybody here agreed with you from the start (do you see the pattern here? We are more friend than foe to you concerning this subject). Btw, your blind assumptions were concerning Terry's training just simply because he was affiliated with a certain org. You didn't train with him, yet proceeded to implicate that what he teaches is not adequate self-defense even though you didn't know what he taught in the first place. He incorporates LEO and CQC into his training, but you obviously didn't think to even ask him about his training before just ignorantly assuming things about him that were not true and that is the point - you don't know how everybody works their SD. There are crap schools out there, but that is true for any and every art. That is the reality of living in a western capitalist society - some people open schools just to make a buck and they aren't concerned with the finer points of the martial arts (and sometimes not even the basic points ). There are a lot of crappy JKD and MMA schools out there too, the latter of which teach what a lot of us like to call "crappling". TKD is the most popular art in the world so naturally there are going to be far more crap schools out there trying to cash in on TKD's popularity. I don't think that such things constitute a viable weakness of the art itself, but rather they highlight a detrimental trend within the martial arts community as a whole. This trend is what you, I, StuartA, Terry, Exile...All of us...are trying to combat in our own ways as it leads to the whole pay-your-way-through-while-not-really-recieving-good-training conundrum. So we are doing exactly what you are doing - calling people out and holding them accountable for crappy training, and we are also ensuring that our own training addresses SD in a practical, alive way. Terry has LEO and CQC training, I have years of training in Jun Fan JKD, Wing Chun, and Escrima along with the H2H combat methods I have learned in the military. Trust me, these things go into our training as self defense. The ROK marines most certainly do the same, as well. Speaking of ROK marines - Youngman, this whole thing started with you and Errant, so when are you going to address his original contention?


----------



## SageGhost83 (Jun 5, 2008)

And to add, whenever something becomes prominent in the martial arts community, there are those who try to cash in on it and offer haphazard versions of it just because they know people will be duped by the name alone. Reality based self defense, for instance. Jim Wagner brought a lot of mainstream attention to it with his program, now there are so many people putting out their own versions to cash in on his success that it isn't even funny, and just like in TKD, there are a lot of god awful versions that will just get you in serious trouble or just plain get you killed. However, just like in TKD, there are also a lot of good ones that are legit and will give you good SD skills. The problem is that in TKD at this time, there are more of the former than the latter, and this gives fuel for many people to just label the entire style as crap when the original product isn't crap and has just suffered a horrible image from those who teach crap versions of it. It also provides the basis of many a gross generalizaton and misinformed assumption of what the style is to begin with. Think about how many bad examples of JKD exist, now imagine a whole boat load of schools opening up everywhere and teaching those bad examples of JKD just to cash in on the JKD name alone, not to mention that its associated with Bruce Lee and everybody wants to be able to fight like Bruce Lee (I was being sarcastic with the Bruce Lee thing, btw). It wouldn't be fair to generalize and say that *all* JKD sucks because of what goes on in the bad schools despite the fact that there are good schools that teach JKD as it was meant to be taught, or at least in a manner that will provide you with viable SD skills. The style itself doesn't suck - a lot of the instructors who teach crappy versions of the style suck and this is where the real blame lies and where the real change has to begin.


----------



## SageGhost83 (Jun 5, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> Think about how many bad examples of JKD exist, now imagine a whole boat load of schools opening up everywhere and teaching those bad examples of JKD just to cash in on the JKD name alone, not to mention that its associated with Bruce Lee and everybody wants to be able to fight like Bruce Lee (I was being sarcastic with the Bruce Lee thing, btw). It wouldn't be fair to generalize and say that *all* JKD sucks because of what goes on in the bad schools despite the fact that there are good schools that teach JKD as it was meant to be taught, or at least in a manner that will provide you with viable SD skills.


 
And in keeping with this example, let's say that somebody accuses somebody who is well versed in JKD, trains with full aliveness and resistance, and is extremely capable in self defense, of teaching inadequate self-defense just becuase that person is affiliated with a particular org. Or better yet, how about if somebody accuses our good friend in the JKD vid of teaching and training crap self defense just because, and staying with the example in the quote, they have seen a lot of crappy JKD schools and assume that what he teaches and how he trains is crap merely by association, even though what he teaches and how he trains really is legit and is different from what is taught in the crap schools. Now, imagine if people held on to one of the two above misguided views religiously and used it to attack JKD, and everybody who practices JKD, relentlessly. Such is the reality of TKD :asian:.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 5, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Chris and everyone else please let me say this one more time, we do not run the KKW curriculum we just get those that need the KKW certs for competition only. I do the Tae Gueks,Palgues and the Chom-Ji sets of poomsae and do my style of Self defense which is totally different than anything the KKW does. I hope this helps but somehow I really doubt it.


 
Ah, I see. I just got the impression form Kacey's post that you taught KKW material "plus" (i.e., with added stuff to round out the curriculum). My only point was that this was something I've seen done by people who are _very_ highly ranked by the KKW itself.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 5, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Actually, GM Lang started under David Kim (if I'm recalling the man's name correctly) at CU-Boulder; at one point, he was training simultaneously under his first instructor and GM Sereff. As some point he became a student of Gen. Choi; if you look at my post I didn't say when, just that it happened.


 
Heh, that's why I asked if you knew when it occured  I wasn't trying to stir up trouble, I was just curious, as I know GM Lang was a long time student of GM Sereff's before forming Yom Chi. I remember seeing him wearing then-Master Sereff's VI dan belt back in 1993 when I was at the USTF world camp, in fact, which is something that's only done for long-time, very close students. (He was pretty impressive at the camp, too, btw.)

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Errant108 (Jun 5, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> An aliveness video. That is nice. The man in the video showed a clear lack of understanding concerning the very purpose of forms to begin with, and he failed to understand that you can practice forms *and* work alive training into what you do - that is certainly how I do it.



Strawman.

He never mentioned form training.  He mentioned dead training.  You inferred forms.



SageGhost83 said:


> Boxers work aliveness training in via sparring, and they also shadowbox which is just about as alive as forms training.



Shadowboxing is spontaneous, forms are rote.



SageGhost83 said:


> I still don't see what you are trying to say concerning suckage, I thought that you were going to define it in your own words rather than hide behind another man's video.



I never said anything concerning "suckage", those were words you put in my mouth.  Matt Thorton's video sums up everything I wanted to say rather nicely.  If you want to accuse me of hiding, fine.  Continue making personal attacks all you want.  I'd rather have an adult conversation.



SageGhost83 said:


> So you are saying that anything that isn't practiced alive constitutes "suckage"? Well kind sir, in the area of SD, I must agree with you hands down, and to say yet again that everybody here agreed with you from the start (do you see the pattern here? We are more friend than foe to you concerning this subject).



Scroll up and read what I said again.  Take your emotional responses out of it.  Just read what I said.

You're the one drawing the line between you & I.  Not me.



SageGhost83 said:


> Btw, your blind assumptions were concerning Terry's training just simply because he was affiliated with a certain org. You didn't train with him, yet proceeded to implicate that what he teaches is not adequate self-defense even though you didn't know what he taught in the first place.



Again, go up and read what I said.  I didn't assume anything about Terry or his training.  I used a simple logical forumula, an if/then statement.  That is not an implication, it is not an accusation.

Again, one more time:



> YoungMan states that Kukkiwon self-defense is an entirely different beast.  I request more information on this Kukki SD.
> 
> Terry's response is to find a former ROK Marine with Kukki certification.
> 
> ...



Do you understand?



SageGhost83 said:


> He incorporates LEO and CQC into his training, but you obviously didn't think to even ask him about his training before just ignorantly assuming things about him that were not true and that is the point - you don't know how everybody works their SD.



I didn't assume anything.

Please, SG, read what I actually said.



SageGhost83 said:


> There are a lot of crappy JKD and MMA schools out there too, the latter of which teach what a lot of us like to call "crappling".



I don't think you understand this term.  I'm from the place that coined it.  It refers to TMA schools trying to cash in on the grappling/MMA hype by teaching a sub-par curriculum that they've either a) learned through seminars, b) tried to pass off standing grappling skills on the ground without understanding the fundamental differences in ground work, c) creating a grappling curriculum by buying Gracie books & trying to teach themselves.

Now, please, SageGhost. Take the time to actually read and comprehend what I've written.  Your counterarguments have been nothing but strawmen and ad hominum attacks.  Terry & I don't seem to have that problem.


----------



## SageGhost83 (Jun 5, 2008)

I was going to go in-depth and address every single point you made, but then I wondered what the point of it would be because we'd just keep going around in circles and I'd just keep getting on your nerves. So, seeing as how we really see eye to eye on the core issue at hand, I will humbly bow to you out of respect and leave you be :asian:.


----------



## terryl965 (Jun 5, 2008)

It is nice to see everybody agree's about the core of SD princeple. Now lets go have a beer and watch UFC:asian:.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 5, 2008)

UFC?

that sucks..................







































*ducks*


----------



## SageGhost83 (Jun 5, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> It is nice to see everybody agree's about the core of SD princeple. Now lets go have a beer and watch UFC:asian:.


 
Sounds like a plan to me! Hey Errant, this one is on me, buddy :drinkbeer.


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## SageGhost83 (Jun 5, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> UFC?
> 
> that sucks..................
> 
> ...


 
Blasphemy! :xtrmshock:boxing::lol2:


----------



## terryl965 (Jun 5, 2008)

Yea but sometimes they have a great fight anyway it involves Beer,opcorn::drinkbeer:drinkbeer:drinkbeer:drinkbeer:drinkbeer


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## Twin Fist (Jun 5, 2008)

mmmmmmmmmmmmm...................Beer

cold

foamy

_happy.........._


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## Errant108 (Jun 8, 2008)

I do not believe any of you have the real beer, since you are certified through a beer association which offers beer that is "the suckage".  I will remain skeptical until you actually buy me this beer, and taste it for myself.


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## Windsinger (Jun 8, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> I do not believe any of you have the real beer, since you are certified through a beer association which offers beer that is "the suckage".  I will remain skeptical until you actually buy me this beer, and taste it for myself.



:duh::lool:

:bow:​


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## StuartA (Jun 8, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> I do not believe any of you have the real beer, since you are certified through a beer association which offers beer that is "the suckage". I will remain skeptical until you actually buy me this beer, and taste it for myself.


 
Um... well... yeah... hes right... me too :cheers:


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## Errant108 (Jun 8, 2008)

The soju is on me.


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## terryl965 (Jun 8, 2008)

Errant if I am ever around you and finally met you, I will buy you more than one.


----------



## Errant108 (Jun 8, 2008)

This could end in tragedy.

By tragedy, I mean complete awesomeness.


----------



## exile (Jun 8, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> I do not believe any of you have the real beer, since you are certified through a beer association which offers beer that is "the suckage".  I will remain skeptical until you actually buy me this beer, and taste it for myself.



Errant, in my pub, the owner/operator (whose lineage includes years of training at a major regional brewer in southern England) practices strictly 'old-school', street-effective brewing: nothing but malt, top-fermenting yeast, barley, and _righteous_ hops, cask-conditioned served by real draught&#8212;drawn by air pressure via an English handpub&#8212;and once a week, a firkin-conditioned beer is opened up and served by gravity pure and simple until it's all gone. The hop bouquet from a pint of _that_ is a religious experience all on its own. You come through Columbus at one point and you'll be more than welcome to be our guest at a representative training session there&#8212;and attendance is usually _excellent!_


----------



## Errant108 (Jun 8, 2008)

I'll be there this weekend actually.


----------



## exile (Jun 8, 2008)

You're gonna be in Columbus _this weekend?_ Damn, I'm going to be back in NY on family business from Tuesday till Sunday. How long you going to be in town? Because they _always_ have something on cask, even though the firkin's just on Fridays. 

Sunday evening will still be doable, if you're going to be here for a few days...? Let me know....


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 9, 2008)

exile said:


> Errant, in my pub, the owner/operator (whose lineage includes years of training at a major regional brewer in southern England) practices strictly 'old-school', street-effective brewing: nothing but malt, top-fermenting yeast, barley, and _righteous_ hops, cask-conditioned served by real draughtdrawn by air pressure via an English handpuband once a week, a firkin-conditioned beer is opened up and served by gravity pure and simple until it's all gone. The hop bouquet from a pint of _that_ is a religious experience all on its own. You come through Columbus at one point and you'll be more than welcome to be our guest at a representative training session thereand attendance is usually _excellent!_


 
Dang, and me stuck in Maryland.


----------



## exile (Jun 9, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Dang, and me stuck in Maryland.



I gotta say, this is one of the few things in which Columbus is genuinely world-class. I've sampled the offerings, shall we say, in dozens of Real Ale pubs all over the UK, and the beer at Barley's can more than hold its own with the best of 'em (same style, but like a lot of US versions of that bitter ales stlyle, I've found, amplified and given extra complexity over the English original). 

But you know, CT, Ahiya and Maryland aren't _that_ far apart. If you ever find yourself on the road traveling to points  west and want to spend an hour or two exploring the glories of the hop (it's a bad idea to travel when you're uncomfortably thirsty, I've found ) lemme know. 

A pint or two of excellent, well-balanced ale puts the whole TKD/everyone else question in perspective, I think. It helps to understand that this is in a sense on of those 'problems' that will take care of themselves. Eventually, the spotlight that TKD has 'enjoyed' will move off elsewhere, the art will split more definitively into a purely sport/acrobatic spectacle side and a smaller, but tightly knit SD side, and someone else's art will be the one getting all the flack. Isn't that how it's always been in since the TMAs hit these shores?


----------



## girlbug2 (Jun 9, 2008)

ellies said:


> Isn't it funny how there is such criticism and cynicism against TKD? I


 
hmmmm, funny how nobody ever gives me carp about Krav..maybe they just don't dare, eh?

LOL just pulling your chain;D


----------



## GlassJaw (Jun 9, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> I do not believe any of you have the real beer, since you are certified through a beer association which offers beer that is "the suckage".  I will remain skeptical until you actually buy me this beer, and taste it for myself.



"The suckage" is at the heart of what's wrong with beer today.  Over the last couple decades there has been such a move afoot to ignore traditional beer and instead focus on the pure competition aspects of beer.

But the truth is that probably the majority of us are not in it for the competition and consider the non-sporting side of beer to be the real beer. I'm seeing a growing population of beerists who are increasingly dissatisfied with the directions in which their beloved art is being forced.  A grassroots movement is abrewin'. 

Sure, competition beers can be really impressive with their fresh-ground orange peel, razor clam extract, and Jamaican Blue Mountain barley, but that's just not the kind of beer that most of us desire for a long-term relationship.   They're fancy things just to wow the spectators and armchair beer nuts.  But void of soul and purpose.

This competition focus tramples over what I love and commercializes the rest.

But perhaps its days are numbered.  I think its possible that in just a few years, the promoters will discover how hollow their support actually is and collapse.  

We've already seen it start to happen.  After for a long time being the main sanctioning body for beer competitions in the U.S., the Association of Brewers (creators of the Great American Beer Festival, etc.) is just a shell of its former self and has retreated back to being little more than a post office box in that beer deadzone known as "Colorado".  

Beer is not about regulations, money, and politics.  But competition is.  In the 90s, the American Homebrewers Association parted ways with the Beer Judge Certification Program (BJCP) and led to there being two separate organizations for the accreditation for amateur competition with separate rules and guidelines.  It also led many to conclude that those organizations had forgotten about beer and were just in it to make money.  

For years there have been rumors of possible reunification, but those who promote the competition side don't want to share and those who prefer non-sporting beer don't want to support anything that might advance the competition end.

(Y'all know I'm kidding, right?)
Dan

                __________________
*Changing Beer one person at a time.*​


----------



## FearlessFreep (Jun 9, 2008)

> (Y'all know I'm kidding, right?)



Umm.. so basically you'll are saying that a true beer should knock you on your ***?

OK, I can see that


----------



## Windsinger (Jun 9, 2008)

Is it me, or has this thread... uh... wandered?

Not that I'm complaining. I love dealing with people with a good sense of humour. And you all definitely qualify.

At least, I think you do. I'm not actually certified to judge your qualifications.


----------



## terryl965 (Jun 9, 2008)

Windsinger said:


> Is it me, or has this thread... uh... wandered?
> 
> Not that I'm complaining. I love dealing with people with a good sense of humour. And you all definitely qualify.
> 
> At least, I think you do. I'm not actually certified to judge your qualifications.


 
Yea but it is all in fun and I believe the meat of the thread ranit course and then the beer came in and we know what that does.


----------



## StuartA (Jun 9, 2008)

Windsinger said:


> I'm not actually certified to judge your qualifications.


 
Ah!  But after a few beers... you will be! :headbangin:


----------



## terryl965 (Jun 9, 2008)

StuartA said:


> Ah! But after a few beers... you will be! :headbangin:


 
That is for sure!!


----------



## Errant108 (Jun 9, 2008)

exile said:


> You're gonna be in Columbus _this weekend?_ Damn, I'm going to be back in NY on family business from Tuesday till Sunday. How long you going to be in town? Because they _always_ have something on cask, even though the firkin's just on Fridays.
> 
> Sunday evening will still be doable, if you're going to be here for a few days...? Let me know....



Nah, just Thurs-Sunday morning.


----------



## Errant108 (Jun 9, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Dang, and me stuck in Maryland.



Where in Maryland?


----------



## Errant108 (Jun 9, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> hmmmm, funny how nobody ever gives me carp about Krav..maybe they just don't dare, eh?



I try not to give people carp about anything.  I much prefer tuna.


----------



## exile (Jun 9, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> Nah, just Thurs-Sunday morning.



OK, next time you're in town. Give me a couple weeks' notice and we can make a visit to my beerjang.... :drinkbeer


----------



## GlassJaw (Jun 10, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> Umm.. so basically you'll are saying that a true beer should knock you on your ***?



Indeed.  Although there are some good soft styles out there, I prefer a beer that does not avoid confrontation.

I see that you're in Colorado Springs.  I must apologize for my earlier post in which I labeled the state of Colorado as a "beer deadzone".    

It was an inconsiderate and careless comment on my part, and I am truly sorry.  

I assure you, I really meant just the Denver area. 
(Never actually been there.  Going next week, though.  Is it true that they use beer as a substitute for atmospheric oxygen? That's a skill I should learn.)

Dan


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 10, 2008)

exile said:


> But you know, CT, Ahiya and Maryland aren't _that_ far apart. If you ever find yourself on the road traveling to points west and want to spend an hour or two exploring the glories of the hop (it's a bad idea to travel when you're uncomfortably thirsty, I've found ) lemme know.


Abolutely!!

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 10, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> Where in Maryland?


Rockville bordering on Gaithersburg.  

Daniel


----------



## Windsinger (Jun 10, 2008)

StuartA said:


> Ah!  But after a few beers... you will be! :headbangin:


Beer... 
Sake!  :drink2tha


----------



## exile (Jun 10, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Abolutely!!
> 
> Daniel



Excellent&#8212;keep us in mind, yes? 



Windsinger said:


> Beer...
> Sake!  :drink2tha



Ah, but if you'd ever had a pint of Scott Francis' Centenial IPA right out of the firkin, you wouldn't say that about beer! :wink1:


----------



## Kacey (Jun 10, 2008)

GlassJaw said:


> Indeed.  Although there are some good soft styles out there, I prefer a beer that does not avoid confrontation.
> 
> I see that you're in Colorado Springs.  I must apologize for my earlier post in which I labeled the state of Colorado as a "beer deadzone".
> 
> ...



*I'm* in Denver, and I can state categorically that you have us confused with the People's Republic of Boulder!


----------



## GlassJaw (Jun 10, 2008)

Kacey said:


> *I'm* in Denver, and I can state categorically that you have us confused with the People's Republic of Boulder!



Hehee, could be.  I said "Denver area" in order to encompass both Boulder (home of Brewers Association) and Golden (home of Coors).

Anything of interest TKD-wise in Denver that I should try to check out while I'm there next week?  (No, I have no clue what I mean by that. . .It would just be a bummer to not discover until after my return that the city is home to, I dunno, the "North American TKD History Museum and Grotesque Injury Gallery".)

Dan


----------



## Kacey (Jun 10, 2008)

GlassJaw said:


> Hehee, could be.  I said "Denver area" in order to encompass both Boulder (home of Brewers Association) and Golden (home of Coors).
> 
> Anything of interest TKD-wise in Denver that I should try to check out while I'm there next week?  (No, I have no clue what I mean by that. . .It would just be a bummer to not discover until after my return that the city is home to, I dunno, the "North American TKD History Museum and Grotesque Injury Gallery".)
> 
> Dan



Hmm... no events coming up that I'm aware of, sorry.  But here are some Denver area classes you could check out if you want to; tell them I sent you or they won't know how you found their class or why you're visiting.


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## Kacey (Jun 16, 2008)

GlassJaw said:


> Hehee, could be.  I said "Denver area" in order to encompass both Boulder (home of Brewers Association) and Golden (home of Coors).
> 
> Anything of interest TKD-wise in Denver that I should try to check out while I'm there next week?  (No, I have no clue what I mean by that. . .It would just be a bummer to not discover until after my return that the city is home to, I dunno, the "North American TKD History Museum and Grotesque Injury Gallery".)
> 
> Dan



Thanks again for coming to play!  I hope you had a good time - my students really enjoyed having a visitor (especially one who, unlike half the class, is not injured).

Here's the picture:


----------



## FearlessFreep (Jun 16, 2008)

> my students really enjoyed having a visitor (especially one who, unlike half the class, is not injured).



Well...stop injuring them...


----------



## Kacey (Jun 16, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> Well...stop injuring them...



_I_ am not the one who injured them... one put his foot down wrong at another instructor's class and broke his foot; one twisted wrong while lifting weights and sprained something in his hip, one was doing the Limbo at a school dance and got an avulsion fracture, which means that instead of over-stretching or tearing a tendon, a chunk of bone in her hip pulled loose, and one lifted something wrong at work today and says her back hurts and a shooting pain is going down her leg.... I wasn't even _present_ when 3/4 of the injuries occurred!  But everyone always assumes I did it... even my boss at the Y, when she saw one of them on crutches


----------



## FearlessFreep (Jun 16, 2008)

Kacey said:


> But everyone always assumes I did it... even my boss at the Y, when she saw one of them on crutches



Your reputation precedes you


----------



## newGuy12 (Jun 17, 2008)

:boing1:


----------



## Kacey (Jun 17, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> Your reputation precedes you





newGuy12 said:


> :boing1:



pfft!!!!!!!!!


----------



## GlassJaw (Jun 18, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Thanks again for coming to play!  I hope you had a good time - my students really enjoyed having a visitor (especially one who, unlike half the class, is not injured).



It was indeed a pleasure to meet you and work out with your class.  I appreciated the opportunity to see see some of the differences and similarities between our respective schools.  Learning new things is always fun.  

Wasn't sure what to expect.  I had hoped that I might pick up bits of a couple of your hyung (I love the way martial arts often express themselves through patterns).  But you kept me on my toes by running me through my own.   I hope I didn't embarrass myself too much.  Ah, who cares?. . .It was a good practice, and I sure needed it.  I'm really glad I went.  (Sorry if I seemed a little out of it--something to do with running on less than four hours of sleep over the previous 36 hours. Fortunately, the altitude didn't get to me as much as i feared it might.   Anyway, thanks for going easy on me.)

If the invitation still holds (and I can fit it into my family's schedule), I hope to return again this coming Monday before leaving town.

Thanks again!
Dan 



> Here's the picture:



P.S., That reminds me.  I wore a white belt and plain dobak because, of course, I hold no rank in your dojang.  I meant to mention before practice that I'm a 3rd gup back home.  Didn't mean to cause any confusion ("Okay, what bizarre school is this guy from where a 10th or 9th gup knows seven poomsae?")


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## GlassJaw (Jun 18, 2008)

Kacey said:


> _I_ am not the one who injured them... one put his foot down wrong at another instructor's class and broke his foot; one twisted wrong while lifting weights and sprained something in his hip, one was doing the Limbo at a school dance and got an avulsion fracture, which means that instead of over-stretching or tearing a tendon, a chunk of bone in her hip pulled loose, and one lifted something wrong at work today and says her back hurts and a shooting pain is going down her leg.... I wasn't even _present_ when 3/4 of the injuries occurred!  But everyone always assumes I did it... even my boss at the Y, when she saw one of them on crutches



Y'know, I was _just kidding_ in my post last week where I mentioned the possibility of Denver being home to the North American TKD Grotesque Injury Museum.

A year or so ago, my co-workers knew that I was preparing for a rank testing over the coming weekend.  The following Monday, I returned to work on crutches and explained that I had a broken ankle.  
"Were you trying to break boards?", they asked.  
"Oh, I broke all my boards in a single go.  This I did yesterday sledding with my kids. That stuff's dangerous."

Dan


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## Kacey (Jun 18, 2008)

GlassJaw said:


> It was indeed a pleasure to meet you and work out with your class.  I appreciated the opportunity to see see some of the differences and similarities between our respective schools.  Learning new things is always fun.
> 
> Wasn't sure what to expect.  I had hoped that I might pick up bits of a couple of your hyung (I love the way martial arts often express themselves through patterns).  But you kept me on my toes by running me through my own.   I hope I didn't embarrass myself too much.  Ah, who cares?. . .It was a good practice, and I sure needed it.  I'm really glad I went.  (Sorry if I seemed a little out of it--something to do with running on less than four hours of sleep over the previous 36 hours. Fortunately, the altitude didn't get to me as much as i feared it might.   Anyway, thanks for going easy on me.)



You're quite welcome!  If you want to learn a tul (besides 4 direction punch; that's an exercise, not a pattern) we can certainly do that - the first tul, Chon-Ji, starts very similarly to the one you were doing.



GlassJaw said:


> If the invitation still holds (and I can fit it into my family's schedule), I hope to return again this coming Monday before leaving town.
> 
> Thanks again!
> Dan



Certainly - please come if you can.




GlassJaw said:


> P.S., That reminds me.  I wore a white belt and plain dobak because, of course, I hold no rank in your dojang.  I meant to mention before practice that I'm a 3rd gup back home.  Didn't mean to cause any confusion ("Okay, what bizarre school is this guy from where a 10th or 9th gup knows seven poomsae?")



I figured it was something like that - thank you for your courtesy.  :asian:


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 18, 2008)

GlassJaw said:


> Y'know, I was _just kidding_ in my post last week where I mentioned the possibility of Denver being home to the North American TKD Grotesque Injury Museum.



Didn't realize she was the curator and chief procurer of exhibits, huh?

All joking aside, Kacey, I was wondering if it would be possible to stop by and observe sometime...since I'm just down the road


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## Kacey (Jun 18, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> Didn't realize she was the curator and chief procurer of exhibits, huh?



Hey, what is this, pick on Kacey day?  What'd I ever do to you, huh?  :idunno:









FearlessFreep said:


> All joking aside, Kacey, I was wondering if it would be possible to stop by and observe sometime...since I'm just down the road



Certainly - look here for directions to the Y - but with one change; on Mondays we are in the other building (north on same parking lot - follow the blue line on the sidewalk) in the basement of the Senior Center and Child Care building.  When you enter the building, go a few steps forward and turn right; the elevator and stairs are on the right.  I've got to get that changed one of these days... Be aware also that if you come on Mondays, the day camp is in full swing - so be really careful in the parking lot, and don't be surprised when there are kids and parents all over the place.  And you're welcome to join in and play, too.


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