# But you're not a black belt.



## Kittan Bachika (Dec 2, 2012)

This weekend some friends of one of my training buddies decided join us for a training session. It was pretty cool but afterwards things got a little tense. One of the guys who was joining us was a black belt in WTF/Olympic style TKD. He claimed to be a real hot shot during his college days and after a couple of beers he began talking smack about other styles and why his style was more superior. One of my training buddies made the point that the problem with WTF/Olympic style TKD was that the fighters dropped their hands. Mr. WTF/Olmpic style TKD did not take that too kindly and began insulting my training buddy's credentials and that his opinions mean nothing and said, his words not mine, "But you're not a black belt."

My buddy is not a black belt in any style. But, he is a bouncer and has been in more than his fair share of street fights. But despite that he realized that if he wanted to stack the deck in his favor, he would have to learn some real skills which is why he trains with us when he can. We all really like this guy but we keep telling him he needs to go a school and get some expert training. Not that we are slouches, but nothing beats learning under a good teacher over time.

My buddy asked Mr. WTF/Olympic style TKD why does having a black belt matter? WTF/Olympic style TKD replied with that if he had a black belt, he would not be so ignorant because he doesn't know what he is talking about.  Yes. This was all very stupid and childish. My buddy the bouncer was actually smiling and took no offense but Mr. WTF/Olympic style TKD was really pumped up and started challenging him. We nipped that in the bud real quick and some of us took that guy aside told him to chill out and the friends of my training buddy called it a night and took him home. 

What annoys me is the "But you're not a black belt" line. Because I have met black belts who don't deserve it who use this line when they can't explain a technique or do it properly.   A lot of professional MMA fighters are not black belts but they know a lot about fighting. 

BTW, I am not bagging on WTF/Olympic style TKD. Back in the day, I used to spar with a black belt in WTF TKD. His kicks were nasty. But even he admitted that his style wasn't perfect. Then again what style is?


----------



## arnisador (Dec 2, 2012)

These people are kidding themselves. I've been taught stuff by yellow belts and absolutely by non-martial artists. I always listen.

Someone can not have a Ph.D. in a subject and still teach me something about it!


----------



## Kittan Bachika (Dec 2, 2012)

arnisador said:


> These people are kidding themselves. I've been taught stuff by yellow belts and absolutely by non-martial artists. I always listen.
> 
> Someone can not have a Ph.D. in a subject and still teach me something about it!



Funny you mention that. When I first started learning how to do a wheel kick, I kept losing my balance. A relative of mine who knows nothing about martial arts realized after watching me that I was moving too fast.


----------



## Mark Lynn (Dec 2, 2012)

This afternoon I just started reading a book by Dave Lowry _Moving Towards Stillness: Lessons in Daily Life from the Martial Ways of Japan.  _In the 1st or 2nd chapter he was writing about being a master on the mat as well as off of the mat.  It is a shame that more black belts don't try and live their life as a black belt off of the mat.  On the mat we strive to control our bodies, while off of the mat they run their mouths.  On the mat we strive to pay respect to others or to be humble, while off the mat they trash others and make themselves out to be bigger than they are.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2012)

The guy is a douchebag, a condition which is made worse by the alcohol.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Dec 3, 2012)

I agree that saying something dismissive like that is a d**k move, but I also think that most people who say the problem with Olympic Taekwondo is that they don't fight with their hands up don't know what they are talking about. Maybe the guy was tired of responding to the same old line, maybe he was having a bad day, or maybe he's just a jerk. Anyway, it sucks when people take that kind of attitude, regardless of their art.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> I agree that saying something dismissive like that is a d**k move, but I also think that most people who say the problem with Olympic Taekwondo is that they don't fight with their hands up don't know what they are talking about. Maybe the guy was tired of responding to the same old line, maybe he was having a bad day, or maybe he's just a jerk. Anyway, it sucks when people take that kind of attitude, regardless of their art.



Actually, in anything other than the very limited world of WTF competition, that IS one of the problems with training under WTF sparring rules.

He's a douchebag because of his 'you don't understand because you're not a black belt' attitude, his insults to the other persons training and experience, and his drunken challenge.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 3, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> I agree that saying something dismissive like that is a d**k move, but I also think that most people who say the problem with Olympic Taekwondo is that they don't fight with their hands up don't know what they are talking about. Maybe the guy was tired of responding to the same old line, maybe he was having a bad day, or maybe he's just a jerk. Anyway, it sucks when people take that kind of attitude, regardless of their art.


I would agree with this, but the TKD guy was the one who started insulting other systems first, so he has to learn to take as good as he gave. And to be fair, it IS a problem with TKD that they don't use their hands. Not saying they aren't formidable, but there are plenty of TKD matches where the guys leaving himself open to a punch to the face. The punch never comes, because the other guy is planning on kicking, not punching, which just reinforces the idea of not paying attention to the hands. It's sad, but true (for the most part).


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 3, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, in anything other than the very limited world of WTF competition, that IS one of the problems with training under WTF sparring rules.
> 
> He's a douchebag because of his 'you don't understand because you're not a black belt' attitude, his insults to the other persons training and experience, and his drunken challenge.


Welp, looks like I was beaten to the catch lol


----------



## Jaeimseu (Dec 3, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> I would agree with this, but the TKD guy was the one who started insulting other systems first, so he has to learn to take as good as he gave. And to be fair, it IS a problem with TKD that they don't use their hands. Not saying they aren't formidable, but there are plenty of TKD matches where the guys leaving himself open to a punch to the face. The punch never comes, because the other guy is planning on kicking, not punching, which just reinforces the idea of not paying attention to the hands. It's sad, but true (for the most part).



Olympic Taekwondo is a sport. The face is open to punches because it's illegal to throw a punch to the face. The other guy isn't just focusing on kicks. He's prohibited from throwing punches to the face. It's the same reason why baseball, soccer, and basketball players don't hold their hands up to prevent punches to the face. In the context of a WTF match, having the hands down is not a problem. 

Having said that, I'm absolutely not advocating the putting down of other systems, and it sounds like the guy was being a jerk, so I hope I didn't come across like I was defending him.


----------



## Mauthos (Dec 3, 2012)

It is an odd thing for me, I think anyone can teach someone something, for example, I used to hate the Corporals and Sargents in the RAF who would never listen to the highly experienced SAC just because he was a lower rank, and unfortunately I have seen the same behavior within the martial arts.

Being an instructor I have seen my ability and technique improve massively since I began teaching and this is purely down to my students opening my eyes, showing me things within techniques that I had never perceived before and helping me through their understanding, to understand the art to a greater degree.  Anyone can have something useful to teach.

On that note, could someone explain to me why Olympic style TKD don't keep their hands up?  To me this is very unusual because for as long as I can remember I have been taught, and now teach others, to always keep your hands up to protect your head.  Is there a particular reason for keeping the hands low, as to me it seems like you are inviting a punch to the face.

Thanks for any explanation you can provide.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2012)

WTF sparring rules do not allow punches to the head, so there's no reason to defend against them.


----------



## Mauthos (Dec 3, 2012)

That would explain it, although it does make me worry that if you train in that way all the time, surely if you actually had to use your TKD in a self defense situation or a simple fight on the street, would it be too much ingrained in the student or too much habit that naturally they would fight with their hands down, leaving themselves open to attacks to the face?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2012)

Mauthos said:


> That would explain it, although it does make me worry that if you train in that way all the time, surely if you actually had to use your TKD in a self defense situation or a simple fight on the street, would it be too much ingrained in the student or too much habit that naturally they would fight with their hands down, leaving themselves open to attacks to the face?



An observation and concern that have been raised about a bazillion times. Personally, I assume that you fight the way you train, and that this is a real concern. Others disagree.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 3, 2012)

Mauthos said:


> It is an odd thing for me, I think anyone can teach someone something, for example, *I used to hate the Corporals and Sargents in the RAF who would never listen to the highly experienced SAC* just because he was a lower rank, and unfortunately I have seen the same behavior within the martial arts.
> 
> Being an instructor I have seen my ability and technique improve massively since I began teaching and this is purely down to my students opening my eyes, showing me things within techniques that I had never perceived before and helping me through their understanding, to understand the art to a greater degree. Anyone can have something useful to teach.
> 
> ...



It depends on what trade you were whether SACs had more experience or not lol. Were you a Rock?


As far as the OP is concerned I think the guy was lucky the other chap was a bouncer with patience, many people would have just dropped him and while that might not have be within the 'martial arts ethos' it would have been very funny! I'd have laughed.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Dec 3, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> Olympic Taekwondo is a sport. The face is open to punches because it's illegal to throw a punch to the face. The other guy isn't just focusing on kicks. He's prohibited from throwing punches to the face. It's the same reason why baseball, soccer, and basketball players don't hold their hands up to prevent punches to the face. In the context of a WTF match, having the hands down is not a problem.
> 
> Having said that, I'm absolutely not advocating the putting down of other systems, and it sounds like the guy was being a jerk, so I hope I didn't come across like I was defending him.



Back in the mid-60s I briefly studied TKD under Jhoon Goo Rhee.  When our students began going to tournaments, they quickly realized they were at a disadvantage because the karate guys would score points with punches.  At distance, our guys were better at kicks.  We had a great emphasis on kicks.  That's OK as long as you can keep distance.  When a puncher gets in close, he has more advantage.  It wasn't that we didn't train punches, we just didn't really use them in sparring.

I gues WTF TKD has solved that problem by not allowing punches.


----------



## Mauthos (Dec 3, 2012)

Not sure whether to be offended or flattered... No I was not a Rock (ape)  I was a liney, avionics (yes a fairy) to be exact and worked everything from 1st line to 3rd line including servicing on a variety of aircraft.

I must agree with Dirty Dog though as I do believe that you will instinctively fight the way you train.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 3, 2012)

Oddly enough, I had something somewhat similar just happen to me recently.  I was invited to a forum for a particular type of discussion about martial arts.  A lot of what was said there wasn't of much interest to me, but I was flattered to have been invited, so I stayed, read the posts, didn't do much else.  A couple of times, I made a comment, but was generally ignored when I did.  OK, fine, whatever.

Recently, however, someone made a statement and I asked a question about it.  One fellow answered me in quasi-Kwai Chang Caine verse, which made no sense.  Still being polite, I asked the question a second time, and was again answered with self-written poety which again had no logic to it and nothing to do with the question I asked.  Then I was informed that juniors, by which I presume means me, should know better than to speak when elders are talking, or words to that effect.

I have to admit, that stung a bit.  The person who issued that statement was someone I considered a friend, one who had taken the time to invite me to his forum.  Oh, I see.  I am to remain silent, am I?  Well, I *am* a junior, in karate.  I'm not a black belt.  But I am over 50 years old, I am not a child, and I won't be spoken to as if I were.  I've been in the military and law enforcement, so I've had my share of fights and had to deal with lots of physical violence in my life.  Yet, because I lack a black belt, I am not qualified to speak when my superiors are speaking.  Oh, I see.

However, the cure was fairly simple.  Rather than engage in dialogue with people who clearly did not see me as their equal, I simply left.  No cutting remarks as I went, no good-byes, I just removed myself from the group and that's that.  It's a shame, but it was the only choice I felt was appropriate.

At some point in the future, hopefully, I will have earned my black belt.  I don't think a mantle of greatness will descend upon my shoulders, nor do I think that my words will suddenly carry more weight, or my pronouncement possess more gravitas.  I will still be the person I was before I put on the *kuro obi*.  But apparently, there are some who will be prepared to consider my words when I wear it, and not before.  What a pity; for them.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 3, 2012)

Mauthos said:


> Not sure whether to be offended or flattered... No I was not a Rock (ape)  I was a liney, avionics (yes a fairy) to be exact and worked everything from 1st line to 3rd line including servicing on a variety of aircraft.
> 
> I must agree with Dirty Dog though as I do believe that you will instinctively fight the way you train.



Ah a penguin ( shiney **** lol). My other half was a Rock, I was an intel officer so that makes me worse lol. The Rocks have a way with young officers who come in thinking they know it all, the Squadron WO takes them to one side and tells them that while they are nominally in charge of the Flight, the SNCOs  actually are and every man except the LACs knows more than they do. The SNCOs will put orders out in the officer's name to keep things looking right, the officer's job is to learn, learn and learn. 
In martial arts this equates to people who are black belts not knowing everything and if someone knows better than them to shut up and learn. Pride in martial arts often comes before a smack in the mouth!

I remember we had it on here once when some of us were told to shut up as we weren't either black belts or only first Dans, too lowly to speak before the master.

I think you can only fight they way you train if you only train one way, many people say that about MMA that fighters can only fight with rules but the MMA fighters I know can just as easily switch off the rules in their head if attacked. MMA fighters train in a very rounded way, they only up their training when they have a fight which in UK may only be two or three times a year, the rest of the time they are training full on. If the TKD people train using their hands but don't for the odd competition then I think they'd be fine, it's when they are virtually pro fighters only training kicks the problems may arise.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Dec 3, 2012)

Mauthos said:


> I must agree with Dirty Dog though as I do believe that you will instinctively fight the way you train.



I think this idea probably has some merit, but how far do we take it? This gets thrown out at WTF competitors a lot...how about schools who "pull" their punches? Under what conditions does "you fight like you train" apply?


----------



## ks - learning to fly (Dec 3, 2012)

2 of the many things I've learned in TKD so far are that...1) Black Belt is the beginning of serious study and 2) when you stop learning - you stop growing as a martial artist

I train and I watch - the learning never ends....and yes, I am a Black Belt...


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm not a Black Belt and neither is my Taijiquan sifu or my Sanda sifu :EG:

Who cares what Mr WTF/Olympic style TKD says.


----------



## Cyriacus (Dec 3, 2012)

The fun part is, i can speak in favor of having your hands down by your sides in general. Its more interesting when some people have no way of defending it whatsoever, and resort to trying to make the other person look bad.


----------



## harlan (Dec 3, 2012)

I can't 'like' this post enough, and sadly, can't yet add more to your rep. 

Solid 'A'.



Bill Mattocks said:


> Oddly enough, I had something somewhat similar just happen to me recently. I was invited to a forum for a particular type of discussion about martial arts. A lot of what was said there wasn't of much interest to me, but I was flattered to have been invited, so I stayed, read the posts, didn't do much else. A couple of times, I made a comment, but was generally ignored when I did. OK, fine, whatever.
> 
> Recently, however, someone made a statement and I asked a question about it. One fellow answered me in quasi-Kwai Chang Caine verse, which made no sense. Still being polite, I asked the question a second time, and was again answered with self-written poety which again had no logic to it and nothing to do with the question I asked. Then I was informed that juniors, by which I presume means me, should know better than to speak when elders are talking, or words to that effect.
> 
> ...



As for the OP, I love the response Taika Oyata gave someone once:

'I no need belt to beat you up.' (or something to that effect LOL!)


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 3, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> Olympic Taekwondo is a sport. The face is open to punches because it's illegal to throw a punch to the face. The other guy isn't just focusing on kicks. He's prohibited from throwing punches to the face. It's the same reason why baseball, soccer, and basketball players don't hold their hands up to prevent punches to the face. In the context of a WTF match, having the hands down is not a problem.
> 
> Having said that, I'm absolutely not advocating the putting down of other systems, and it sounds like the guy was being a jerk, so I hope I didn't come across like I was defending him.


Ok, it sounds like you completely misunderstood what I was saying. I was not saying that it is a bad sport. I was comparing it to other MA's, and if you do that, you have to find some equal footing which is NOT the context of a WTF match. And outside of that context, the lack of handwork is a pretty big handicap. So, as I was saying, in terms of comparing to other martial arts, it is a problem that they don't use their hands, and does make it an 'incomplete' MA, as all MA's are.


----------



## rickster (Dec 3, 2012)

I am at odds whenever somone has to use the "title" bouncer.

Being a bouncer does not equate to superior fighting or defense ability


----------



## Jaeimseu (Dec 3, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> And to be fair, it IS a problem with TKD that they don't use their hands. Not saying they aren't formidable, but there are plenty of TKD matches where the guys leaving himself open to a punch to the face. The punch never comes, because the other guy is planning on kicking, not punching, which just reinforces the idea of not paying attention to the hands. It's sad, but true (for the most part).


What you wrote above says that in TKD matches players leave their faces open. When you say "in TKD matches" it sounds like you are talking about two Taekwondo players in a match against each other. Therefore they don't need to defend the face from a punch at that time due to the illegality of the technique.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Dec 3, 2012)

Point number one: Taekwondo guy was a dick. There are lots of those out there. 

Point number two:



Kittan Bachika said:


> One of my training buddies made the point that the problem with WTF/Olympic style TKD was that the fighters dropped their hands.



That isn't a point. Where your hands are does not matter because in martial arts, you are learning to deal with pressure, not specifically with punches or kicks.


----------



## arnisador (Dec 3, 2012)

harlan said:


> As for the OP, I love the response Taika Oyata gave someone once:
> 
> 'I no need belt to beat you up.' (or something to that effect LOL!)



One of the Gracies (I think) said "A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ***. It's up to you to cover the rest."


----------



## arnisador (Dec 3, 2012)

rickster said:


> I am at odds whenever somone has to use the "title" bouncer.
> 
> Being a bouncer does not equate to superior fighting or defense ability



I agree--but they likely have some experience spotting and heading off trouble, and that kind of practical self-defense info. can be more valuable than a specific technique. I always listen to them about how they can tell when trouble is brewing before anyone throws down, and how they manage a crowd to get things back under control. Same with cops. He may not throw a better punch than I do but he's wrestled more people to the ground than I have. I want to hear.


----------



## arnisador (Dec 3, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> That isn't a point. Where your hands are does not matter because in martial arts, you are learning to deal with pressure, not specifically with punches or kicks.



Uh-oh.

You'll fight how you train--or fold and fall back on wild flaying and grappling. You need to learn to keep your hands up and watch for punches, which are so much more common than kicks in a real fight.


----------



## Cyriacus (Dec 3, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Uh-oh.
> 
> You'll fight how you train--or fold and fall back on wild flaying and grappling. You need to learn to keep your hands up and watch for punches, which are so much more common than kicks in a real fight.


What about the MMA fighters and Boxers who have their hands down? Im not talking beginners, either.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Dec 3, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Uh-oh.
> 
> You'll fight how you train--or fold and fall back on wild flaying and grappling. You need to learn to keep your hands up and watch for punches, which are so much more common than kicks in a real fight.



No, you watch for pressure, not for punches or kicks. 

I spend so much time trying to get people to relax and react rather than think...yammering about hands up is counterproductive. If you really think a tkd competitor can't deal with being punched at, I don't know what to say


----------



## ETinCYQX (Dec 3, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> What about the MMA fighters and Boxers who have their hands down? Im not talking beginners, either.



^^^

Head movement, reading opponents, watching for pressure. Textbook high level striking.


----------



## Buka (Dec 3, 2012)

"When you argue with a fool, others can't tell you apart."

and/or...

"Never argue with fools, they will drag you down to their level......then beat you with experience."


----------



## Kittan Bachika (Dec 3, 2012)

As I said before. I am not bagging on WTF TKD.  I sparred with a WTF guy who  had these really crazy kicks. Because he knew I was going to throw  punches at him, he was always ready with a counter. And it was always  with a kick. He really made me respect kicking. So please. Let's be civil. And if those of you who are WTF TKD. It was never my intention to offend any of you. In my opinion, if this guy was a BJJ black belt or a black sash in Wing Chun, he would have acted the same way. At the end of the day it all comes down to the person.

Now that I think about it, I have also heard about this happening in styles where there are no belts. There are some people who think after spending a year in China in Shaolin Temple that they are Jet Li. And I have heard of one guy who claims to be a Zen Monk after a year of going to a temple. They all think that they know better than others.



Bill Mattocks said:


> Oddly enough, I had something somewhat similar just happen to me recently.  I was invited to a forum for a particular type of discussion about martial arts.  A lot of what was said there wasn't of much interest to me, but I was flattered to have been invited, so I stayed, read the posts, didn't do much else.  A couple of times, I made a comment, but was generally ignored when I did.  OK, fine, whatever.
> 
> Recently, however, someone made a statement and I asked a question about it.  One fellow answered me in quasi-Kwai Chang Caine verse, which made no sense.  Still being polite, I asked the question a second time, and was again answered with self-written poety which again had no logic to it and nothing to do with the question I asked.  Then I was informed that juniors, by which I presume means me, should know better than to speak when elders are talking, or words to that effect.
> 
> ...



Bill. You are better off without that friend. He probably wanted to show off to the others about inviting you to the forum. And you showed more class than anyone else by being polite, asking questions and when things got hot, instead of losing your temper, you simple walked away. If that is not a true martial artist, I don't know what is.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 3, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> What you wrote above says that in TKD matches players leave their faces open. When you say "in TKD matches" it sounds like you are talking about two Taekwondo players in a match against each other. Therefore they don't need to defend the face from a punch at that time due to the illegality of the technique.


Yes, they do. But, as I explained in the other post, because they leave their faces open in their matches, so, outside of those matches, when facing people of other disciplines, it develops into a problem. Not sure why I'm specifying this twice, since I already did in my most recent post. I have respect for TKD, but IMO, it is a problem outside of the matches. Not a big one, but it is one. 

And to ETIN, if you don't practice against defending against something, you'll have a tougher time defending against it. Not just with TKD and punches, but if you're not used to, say, knives, you'll have trouble defending against them. No matter how well they relax, they will still generally be in trouble.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 3, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> What about the MMA fighters and Boxers who have their hands down? Im not talking beginners, either.


These people have other ways of dealing with punches. It may not be with a high guard, but they do know how to deal with punches.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Dec 3, 2012)

I try to listen to everybody's thoughts on things regardless of what their experience or rank is. Everyone can teach me something, and I may hear someone say something I hadn't thought of before. If someone is flat out wrong about something you need to have a better argument against it than "But you're not a black belt".


----------



## Gentle Fist (Dec 4, 2012)

Your friend with the black belt needs to spar a BJJ white belt so he can be humbled...


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 4, 2012)

rickster said:


> I am at odds whenever somone has to use the "title" bouncer.
> 
> Being a bouncer does not equate to superior fighting or defense ability



I don't think it was used to denote fighting ability more to show that he's used to taking flak off patrons and NOT responding to them with violence. Door staff get a lot of verbal abuse of people they have to eject from the premises or move on and the ability not to repsond by smacking them, of being able to smile and let it go is an important skill.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 4, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> What about the MMA fighters and Boxers who have their hands down? Im not talking beginners, either.



The MMA fighters learn very quickly to put their hands up, I've heard many a corner screaming at their fighter to put their hands up. Often hands go down when fatigue sets in. In amateur MMA fights where there are no head shots often fighters don't put their hands up, which can be a bad habit to form if they intend to step up to semi and pro rules.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Dec 4, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> Yes, they do. But, as I explained in the other post, because they leave their faces open in their matches, so, outside of those matches, when facing people of other disciplines, it develops into a problem. Not sure why I'm specifying this twice, since I already did in my most recent post. I have respect for TKD, but IMO, it is a problem outside of the matches. Not a big one, but it is one.
> 
> And to ETIN, if you don't practice against defending against something, you'll have a tougher time defending against it. Not just with TKD and punches, but if you're not used to, say, knives, you'll have trouble defending against them. No matter how well they relax, they will still generally be in trouble.



I, like many other KKW TKD coaches and other striking coaches, am of the opinion that the specific moves are less important than dealing with pressure. That is to say I don't consider it particularly relevant whether your opponent is punching or kicking you.



Gentle Fist said:


> Your friend with the black belt needs to spar a BJJ white belt so he can be humbled...



Before I say anything I spent all weekend working on De La Riva guard, half guard and deep half. I love BJJ but I don't think that a white belt BJJ player can necessarily take down and submit anyone like a lot of people believe. Plus, it's not a question of fighting prowess here I don't think, it's about being patronizing. Not like "you aren't a black belt so I can beat you" but more like "you aren't a black belt so I don't expect you to understand." In a workplace context, it'd be "you aren't a supervisor so I don't expect you to understand"


----------



## ETinCYQX (Dec 4, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> These people have other ways of dealing with punches. It may not be with a high guard, but they do know how to deal with punches.



This is exactly what I'm saying. WTF taekwondo player will deal with punches in whatever way presents itself. Maybe a high guard, maybe through head movement, maybe through footwork. It isn't any different from a boxer with their hands down. Not being allowed to punch to the face really isn't important.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 4, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> I, like many other KKW TKD coaches and other striking coaches, am of the opinion that the specific moves are less important than dealing with pressure. That is to say I don't consider it particularly relevant whether your opponent is punching or kicking you.
> 
> 
> 
> Before I say anything I spent all weekend working on De La Riva guard, half guard and deep half. I love BJJ but I don't think that a white belt BJJ player can necessarily take down and submit anyone like a lot of people believe. Plus, it's not a question of fighting prowess here I don't think, it's about being patronizing. Not like "you aren't a black belt so I can beat you" but more like "you aren't a black belt so I don't expect you to understand." In a workplace context, it'd be "you aren't a supervisor so I don't expect you to understand"



Staff do understand very well what supervisors do and say probably better than they do! A better one would be someone who does a different job altogether, ie you're not a doctor/scientist/dentist etc so I wouldn't expect you to understand.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 4, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Before I say anything I spent all weekend working on De La Riva guard, half guard and deep half. I love BJJ but I don't think that a white belt BJJ player can necessarily take down and submit anyone like a lot of people believe. Plus, it's not a question of fighting prowess here I don't think, it's about being patronizing. Not like "you aren't a black belt so I can beat you" but more like "you aren't a black belt so I don't expect you to understand." In a workplace context, it'd be "you aren't a supervisor so I don't expect you to understand"



Ahh but in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts there are no blackbelts....but a black belt dos not do TCMA so I do not expect you to understand... and at work I am not a supervisor in title....but I do supervise a few people...but I do not expect you to understand.

I look at the whole "I'm a black belt" conversation, that the OP posted, as arrogant and rather elitist and a pretty good sign of someone who is covering up for a lack of understanding themselves... but then I am not a Black belt or a TKD person (anymore) and I do CMA and I have been in MA for what is scary close to 40 years.... so I likely do not understand


----------



## lklawson (Dec 4, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> What about the MMA fighters and Boxers who have their hands down? Im not talking beginners, either.


Same as in old school, pre-Marquis, Boxing (London Prize Ring and Broughton era).  The greater distance enforced by addition of kicking and grappling gives the fighter more time to deal with incoming punches and forces the puncher to use non-standard (for modern boxing) punches such as the lunge punch, the dropstep, and the "superman."  MMA fighters are not forced to spend time in "punching range" if they do not want to.  They can hang back at kicking range or, if the other fighter wants to push to boxing range, they can clinch in to grappling.  MMA fighters *ONLY *stay in boxing range if both fighters want to.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Dec 4, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> These people have other ways of dealing with punches. It may not be with a high guard, but they do know how to deal with punches.


Nah, it's the standard boxing guards.  When they're outside of boxing range, they'll let their guard drop because it's safe to do so.  When the go to boxing range, up goes the guard unless they're passing through it and going to clinch or grappling.

Modern long range MMA stances look a whole lot like Broughton era boxing stances or even sometimes a variant of LPR stances with a bit more crouch and leg mobility because of the kicks.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Bigdavid5.0 (Dec 4, 2012)

Kittan Bachika said:


> This weekend some friends of one of my training buddies decided join us for a training session. It was pretty cool but afterwards things got a little tense. One of the guys who was joining us was a black belt in WTF/Olympic style TKD. He claimed to be a real hot shot during his college days and after a couple of beers he began talking smack about other styles and why his style was more superior. One of my training buddies made the point that the problem with WTF/Olympic style TKD was that the fighters dropped their hands. Mr. WTF/Olmpic style TKD did not take that too kindly and began insulting my training buddy's credentials and that his opinions mean nothing and said, his words not mine, "But you're not a black belt."
> 
> My buddy is not a black belt in any style. But, he is a bouncer and has been in more than his fair share of street fights. But despite that he realized that if he wanted to stack the deck in his favor, he would have to learn some real skills which is why he trains with us when he can. We all really like this guy but we keep telling him he needs to go a school and get some expert training. Not that we are slouches, but nothing beats learning under a good teacher over time.
> 
> ...


I believe all styles and systems have some awesome things to learn.One thing to learn is humility.A Black Belt that lacks humility or is prideful gives his school a black eye.Any one of your friends could have dumped him on his head and schooled him.It would have been a good lesson for him


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 4, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Ahh but in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts there are no blackbelts....but a black belt dos not do TCMA so I do not expect you to understand... and at work I am not a supervisor in title....but I do supervise a few people...but I do not expect you to understand.
> 
> I look at the whole "I'm a black belt" conversation, that the OP posted, as arrogant and rather elitist and a pretty good sign of someone who is covering up for a lack of understanding themselves... but then I am not a Black belt or a TKD person (anymore) and I do CMA and I have been in MA for what is scary close to 40 years.... so I likely do not understand


But you do asian kung foo magic, so you must be wise guru :asian:. As a black belt, I officially give you, mr. senior guru-sama, permission to understand.


----------



## rickster (Dec 4, 2012)

arnisador said:


> I agree--but they likely have some experience spotting and heading off trouble, and that kind of practical self-defense info. can be more valuable than a specific technique. I always listen to them about how they can tell when trouble is brewing before anyone throws down, and how they manage a crowd to get things back under control. Same with cops. He may not throw a better punch than I do but he's wrestled more people to the ground than I have. I want to hear.


Agree.

Many bouncers I know are not martial artists. Nor really good fighters. They are just big guys as a display. Some do know crowd control. But being a bouncers is not about superior self defense.

BTW, I was a bouncer-turned Night Club Manager...I did not hire bouncers whom thought they can fight...I hired those who knew how to avoid and keep a proper attitude


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Ahh but in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts there are no blackbelts....but a black belt dos not do TCMA so I do not expect you to understand... and at work I am not a supervisor in title....but I do supervise a few people...but I do not expect you to understand.
> 
> I look at the whole "I'm a black belt" conversation, that the OP posted, as arrogant and rather elitist and a pretty good sign of someone who is covering up for a lack of understanding themselves... but then I am not a Black belt or a TKD person (anymore) and I do CMA and I have been in MA for what is scary close to 40 years.... so I likely do not understand



But Xue, that would mean... no wait, it would mean... no, that can't be right, maybe it means...


Oh hell. I just don't understand!


----------



## lklawson (Dec 4, 2012)

Seriously, show this wanker the door and let him learn his inevitable life-lesson somewhere else where you don't have legal liability for his injuries.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## arnisador (Dec 4, 2012)

rickster said:


> BTW, I was a bouncer-turned Night Club Manager...I did not hire bouncers whom thought they can fight...I hired those who knew how to avoid and keep a proper attitude



Full agreement! I know people who avoid martial artists for such type of work as some are just too eager to use kung fu where verbal judo or intimidation-by-superior-numbers would be better responses.


----------



## chinto (Dec 5, 2012)

all a black belt means is that you have gotten to the point where you are competent in the basics of the system you are studying.  Blackbelt is not Hanshi or Kyoshi or even Shihan!


----------



## Brother John (Dec 6, 2012)

arnisador said:


> These people are kidding themselves. I've been taught stuff by yellow belts and absolutely by non-martial artists. I always listen.
> 
> Someone can not have a Ph.D. in a subject and still teach me something about it!


BINGO!!!

if you can't learn from ANYONE
You've probably not learned much of anything at anytime.
Seeking insight, info... exercising discernment and employing critical thought requires NO rank, and rank without these things... means very little.
Your Brother
John


----------



## Cyriacus (Dec 6, 2012)

lklawson said:


> Same as in old school, pre-Marquis, Boxing (London Prize Ring and Broughton era).  The greater distance enforced by addition of kicking and grappling gives the fighter more time to deal with incoming punches and forces the puncher to use non-standard (for modern boxing) punches such as the lunge punch, the dropstep, and the "superman."  MMA fighters are not forced to spend time in "punching range" if they do not want to.  They can hang back at kicking range or, if the other fighter wants to push to boxing range, they can clinch in to grappling.  MMA fighters *ONLY *stay in boxing range if both fighters want to.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I dont know how i missed this when you first posted it. Complete agreement.


----------



## Cirdan (Dec 6, 2012)

Sounds like the belt was wearing him.


----------



## Gentle Fist (Dec 6, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Before I say anything I spent all weekend working on De La Riva guard, half guard and deep half. I love BJJ but I don't think that a white belt BJJ player can necessarily take down and submit anyone like a lot of people believe. Plus, it's not a question of fighting prowess here I don't think, it's about being patronizing. Not like "you aren't a black belt so I can beat you" but more like "you aren't a black belt so I don't expect you to understand." In a workplace context, it'd be "you aren't a supervisor so I don't expect you to understand"



I agree.   I was referring more to the combat logic and playfulness.  Most BJJ white belts don't have egos and will go hard with anyone to try out their new arsenal.  I would dare say that "some" white belts in Judo and BJJ could take (submit/defeat) a TKD black belt who has no grappling game since they would be a fish out of water once they were grabbed and taken to the ground. I saw it first hand a few weeks ago at our club when a cocky 2nd Dan in TKD went with one of our 7 month white belts and got smoked several times...  Granted it was his first night (and maybe last) in Judo but he left the dojo with a new demeanor.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 6, 2012)

Gentle Fist said:


> I agree.   I was referring more to the combat logic and playfulness.  Most BJJ white belts don't have egos and will go hard with anyone to try out their new arsenal.  I would dare say that "some" white belts in Judo and BJJ could take (submit/defeat) a TKD black belt who has no grappling game since they would be a fish out of water once they were grabbed and taken to the ground. I saw it first hand a few weeks ago at our club when a cocky 2nd Dan in TKD went with one of our 7 month white belts and got smoked several times...  Granted it was his first night (and maybe last) in Judo but he left the dojo with a new demeanor.



In all fairness, I have to ask: was this TKD black belt allowed to use full contact strikes during this match?


----------



## rickster (Dec 6, 2012)

I wonder if anyone ever gave him a black eye to match his black belt?


----------



## Steve (Dec 6, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> In all fairness, I have to ask: was this TKD black belt allowed to use full contact strikes during this match?


It's TKD.  Would the TKD black belt even know how to use full contact strikes? ( )


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 6, 2012)

Steve said:


> It's TKD.  Would the TKD black belt even know how to use full contact strikes? ( )



I'd like to think so... 

Was he allowed to?


----------



## ETinCYQX (Dec 6, 2012)

Gentle Fist said:


> I agree.   I was referring more to the combat logic and playfulness.  Most BJJ white belts don't have egos and will go hard with anyone to try out their new arsenal.  I would dare say that "some" white belts in Judo and BJJ could take (submit/defeat) a TKD black belt who has no grappling game since they would be a fish out of water once they were grabbed and taken to the ground. I saw it first hand a few weeks ago at our club when a cocky 2nd Dan in TKD went with one of our 7 month white belts and got smoked several times...  Granted it was his first night (and maybe last) in Judo but he left the dojo with a new demeanor.



My first night in Judo i got taken down by a guy who started the exact same time, as a 1st Kyu in taekwondo. I'd like to think he wouldn't have been able to take me down if i was allowed to kick him, but who knows ().

I have to admit when I started grappling I was a little cocky. By the time I got my taekwondo 1st dan, that had been worked out of me.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Dec 6, 2012)

Steve said:


> It's TKD.  Would the TKD black belt even know how to use full contact strikes? ( )



WTF sparring is always full contact. ITF is "officially" semi contact, but ITF guys don't appear to know what that means because they hit just as hard as we do...


----------



## Gentle Fist (Dec 6, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> In all fairness, I have to ask: was this TKD black belt allowed to use full contact strikes during this match?



No strikes or kicks, which is good since the white belt had done Muay Thai for a few years prior to joining Judo


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 6, 2012)

Gentle Fist said:


> No strikes or kicks, which is good since the white belt had done Muay Thai for a few years prior to joining Judo



So in other words, it wasn't a "back belt vs white belt" match. It was "zero experience white belt vs some experience white belt" match.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 6, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> So in other words, it wasn't a "back belt vs white belt" match. It was "zero experience white belt vs some experience white belt" match.


And even if gentlefist could somehow include striking arts in the equation, its 2nd dan taekwondo vs. muay thai fighter


----------



## arnisador (Dec 6, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> WTF sparring is always full contact.



Define "full".


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Dec 6, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Define "full".


as far as Im aware wtf tkd is "full conact" to the legal target areas. You can literally kick someone in the head as hard as you want, or anywhere on the hogu. Those guys kick like mules, they will easily break your rib even through the hogu if you are not careful.


----------



## lklawson (Dec 7, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> So in other words, it wasn't a "back belt vs white belt" match. It was "zero experience white belt vs some experience white belt" match.


No.  Both had striking experience.  One had no Judo/Grappling experience and the other had very little Judo/Grappling experience and was able to do a takedown on the former.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 7, 2012)

lklawson said:


> No.  Both had striking experience.  One had no Judo/Grappling experience and the other had very little Judo/Grappling experience and was able to do a takedown on the former.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



So as I said, *under the ruleset they were required to follow*


> it wasn't a "back belt vs white belt" match. It was "zero experience white belt vs some experience white belt" match.


----------



## mcmoon (Dec 7, 2012)

As a whitebelt in bjj I have taken down many blackbelts in TKD with full contact rules.  Unless you train to not get taken down it then it really isn't all that hard to put somebody on their back but even then I could pull guard and be perfectly fine in that situation.

I'm a bluebelt now but I have taught instructors things even though I am not a blackbelt.  Usually I just make an observation which they may have not noticed and goes from there.  

Also there is a difference between lets say a boxer with his hands down who is used to dealing with punches than a taekwondist with his hands down who isnt used to dealing with punchs.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Dec 7, 2012)

mcmoon said:


> As a whitebelt in bjj I have taken down many blackbelts in TKD with full contact rules.  Unless you train to not get taken down it then it really isn't all that hard to put somebody on their back but even then I could pull guard and be perfectly fine in that situation.
> 
> I'm a bluebelt now but I have taught instructors things even though I am not a blackbelt.  Usually I just make an observation which they may have not noticed and goes from there.
> 
> Also there is a difference between lets say a boxer with his hands down who is used to dealing with punches than a taekwondist with his hands down who isnt used to dealing with punchs.


It depends largely on the tkd black belt. If you are talking about the guy who got his black belt in 18 months at the local mcdojo then my 8 year old son could probably take them down. If, however, you are talking about a "real" tkd black belt who trained at a "real" tkd dojang and took 5 years to get a black belt training 3 or 4 times a week (not training olympic style), then I would just about bet my house that a bjj white belt would not even get close to them. "Good" tkd black belts have amazing reflexes and very fast footwork and will kick you three times before you even realise they are in range. Ive sparred these sorts of guys many times, and its not much fun. If you are talking about mcdojo black belts then I agree wholeheartedly.


----------



## mcmoon (Dec 7, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> It depends largely on the tkd black belt. If you are talking about the guy who got his black belt in 18 months at the local mcdojo then my 8 year old son could probably take them down. If, however, you are talking about a "real" tkd black belt who trained at a "real" tkd dojang and took 5 years to get a black belt training 3 or 4 times a week (not training olympic style), then I would just about bet my house that a bjj white belt would not even get close to them. "Good" tkd black belts have amazing reflexes and very fast footwork and will kick you three times before you even realise they are in range. Ive sparred these sorts of guys many times, and its not much fun. If you are talking about mcdojo black belts then I agree wholeheartedly.



I can not say how good many of them were so you could totally be right but one of my mma instructors was a legit tkd black belt and a blue belt in bjj with heavy tkd influenced standup and have managed to take him down.  It was however much harder and a little more rarer but not impossible.

Also as long as you are not an idiot, keep your guard up, and not rush in like a hobo then I'll take a kick to put you on your *** if that is where I will have the advantage.

This is also from my experience and while I am not a black belt I am no slouch in the stand up so the fact that I knew how to setup my strikes, defend and counter could have been the reason so a person that did not have that experience could have a very different outcome.  Also it really needs to be clarified what people mean by bjj white belt.  I have seen white belts that have a wrestling background take more experienced people down at will all the time. There is also a huge difference between white belt that's been training for a few months and one that's been training 2 years.  As I believe I stated earlier when your not trained to defend takedowns it really is not all that difficult.  It's the same as some one throwing a kick, they may know more less what to do but because they haven't ever actually trained it then it is probably god awful and not very effective.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2012)

mcmoon said:


> Also as long as you are not an idiot, keep your guard up, and not rush in like a hobo then I'll take a kick to put you on your *** if that is where I will have the advantage.


That explains a lot. if you can just rush in and take a kick, either they weren't using full power because it was practice, or their not one of the 'good' TKD black belts. I would never risk taking a kick from a TKD black belt whose trying to hurt me, and certainly wouldnt be able to tackle them after..my head would be spinning if im not knocked out.


> This is also from my experience and while I am not a black belt I am no slouch in the stand up so the fact that I knew how to setup my strikes, defend and counter could have been the reason so a person that did not have that experience could have a very different outcome.


This also explains it..you're original post was a bit misleading. You may have been a white belt in BJJ, but you had other martial experience to help you combat the TKD..pretty sure they meant someone who is pure BJJ white belt, with no experience outside of BJJ, because then they become a "A BJJ white belt, and "insert other experience/rank here"


----------



## arnisador (Dec 7, 2012)

My money's on the guy with a little BJJ. They've shown it often enough--the strategy works.


----------



## mcmoon (Dec 7, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> That explains a lot. if you can just rush in and take a kick, either they weren't using full power because it was practice, or their not one of the 'good' TKD black belts. I would never risk taking a kick from a TKD black belt whose trying to hurt me, and certainly wouldnt be able to tackle them after..my head would be spinning if im not knocked out.
> 
> This also explains it..you're original post was a bit misleading. You may have been a white belt in BJJ, but you had other martial experience to help you combat the TKD..pretty sure they meant someone who is pure BJJ white belt, with no experience outside of BJJ, because then they become a "A BJJ white belt, and "insert other experience/rank here"



Again I'm not saying just rush in and take a kick and I'm defiantly not taking one to the head for a take down but if you know you are going to get hit there are tactics such as rolling with the strike to lessen the damage done and get in clinch range.  This may also be having to do with my experience and knowing this beforehand, it's hard to speak from a pure inexperienced point view but I understand exactly what you mean and didn't mean to try and be misleading.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2012)

mcmoon said:


> Again I'm not saying just rush in and take a kick and I'm defiantly not taking one to the head for a take down but if you know you are going to get hit there are tactics such as rolling with the strike to lessen the damage done and get in clinch range.  This may also be having to do with my experience and knowing this beforehand, it's hard to speak from a pure inexperienced point view but I understand exactly what you mean and didn't mean to try and be misleading.


Yeah, i get what you did, just saying what an inexperienced person would probably do, with just bjj, probably wouldn't know to well at white to avoid the kick to the head when trying for the takedown.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Dec 7, 2012)

arnisador said:


> My money's on the guy with a little BJJ. They've shown it often enough--the strategy works.


Id love to see some footage of a bjj white belt defeating a "good" tkd black belt, Ive searched but cant find any. Plenty of vids (with an agenda) showing very ordinary tkd black belts against reasonable bjj guys.Saying you could just take a kick in order to get in on them is like saying "I'll just let this tiger shark get a good bite on me so I can get close enough to poke it in the eye". Kicks are much stronger than punches and coming from someone who has trained them extensively they are devastating. You dont simply "take a kick" from a good tkd black belt.


----------



## arnisador (Dec 7, 2012)

Tell me again about the full-contact TKD sparring, then? Are there ever survivors?


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Dec 7, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Tell me again about the full-contact TKD sparring, then? Are there ever survivors?


Same reason there are survivors in boxing despite the fact that it is full contact to the head. If a pro boxer hit me in the head I would probably end up with brain damage but pro boxers dont fight people like me, they fight other pro boxers who train in the sport. Go get joe average from up the road and stick him in a ring with aaron cook and see what happens. Heres some footage of the footy show over here in australia where sam newman, an ex footballer, big bloke and loud mouth, who spent the olympics bagging out on our tkd fighters, had to put his money where his mouth is. Needless to say the little 50kg tkd guy wasnt even trying.  




I remember the first time I sparred a real good tkd black belt, it was shortly after I got my first dan and I was in the best physical condition of my life, he got me with a turning side kick and it was like getting hit by a moving car. The funny part is that its not their power that surprised me but their accuracy, they could aim at a pea sized spot on your uniform and hit it everytime. Again, Im talking about real good tkd black belts here, not mcdojo black belts. Im also responding to the call that a white belt bjj (with presumably no other training) could take down a good tkd black belt. A bjj guy with a few years experience is a different story, but then most real good tkd black belts are also versed in hapkido and some other arts, and would have defences against take downs, so it would rarely be that black and white.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Mauthos said:


> On that note, could someone explain to me why Olympic style TKD don't keep their hands up?  To me this is very unusual because for as long as I can remember I have been taught, and now teach others, to always keep your hands up to protect your head.  Is there a particular reason for keeping the hands low, as to me it seems like you are inviting a punch to the face.




WTF TKD is more about scoring points with lighting fast, flurries of weak snap kicks. They can throw power kicks, no doubt...just that it's less likely to win competitions. Hands low, stabilizes these flurries of kicks, spinning kicks and any kicks in general. 

Punches to the head aren't allowed, but kicks to the head are. But if you put your guard up, WTF TKD will attack your body with a ton of tapping kicks or KO kicks and will probably win by points or TKO or KO. Keeping the hands low is to protect the slow moving torso while banking on faster head movement to avoid high kicks. But more importantly, it's to be able to launch faster, multiple kicks.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> No, you watch for pressure, not for punches or kicks.
> 
> I spend so much time trying to get people to relax and react rather than think...yammering about hands up is counterproductive. If you really think a tkd competitor can't deal with being punched at, I don't know what to say




Beginners to intermediates should always train with their hands up, but as they  gain experience and develop their fighting style, it's ok to lower their  hands, depending on what they're looking to achieve...especially  counterfighters.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Dec 8, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> WTF TKD is more about scoring points with lighting fast, flurries of weak snap kicks. They can throw power kicks, no doubt...just that it's less likely to win competitions. Hands low, stabilizes these flurries of kicks, spinning kicks and any kicks in general.
> 
> Punches to the head aren't allowed, but kicks to the head are. But if you put your guard up, WTF TKD will attack your body with a ton of tapping kicks or KO kicks and will probably win by points or TKO or KO. Keeping the hands low is to protect the slow moving torso while banking on faster head movement to avoid high kicks. But more importantly, it's to be able to launch faster, multiple kicks.


for a start, "tappy kicks" wont score. They use electronic hogus where you set the power required to score points. They set the level to a point where  "weak snap kicks" wont score. Secondly, they keep their hands down for many reasons (I dont do wtf tkd, so there are others who could answer better), but there is no point keeping your hands up protecting your head if punches to the head arent allowed. There are other reasons, but I will leave that to the wtf guys to answer. I dont do wtf tkd, nor do I particularly like the sport side of tkd, but I know there are many misconceptions regarding it. I think most martial artists would get a real shock if they went and trained with  good sport tkd guys, I know I did.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> This also explains it..you're original post was a bit misleading. You may have been a white belt in BJJ, but you had other martial experience to help you combat the TKD..pretty sure they meant someone who is pure BJJ white belt, with no experience outside of BJJ, because then they become a "A BJJ white belt, and "insert other experience/rank here"



It depends. A BJJ White belt can be someone with just 1 day of training or up to 1.5 years of dedicated training...which is 3 days per week, at 1.5 hours per class with usually 30-45 minutes of sparring, every class, at 80-100% power and intensity. When I was a BJJ White belt, even after 5 months of training, it was very easy to submit someone w/no ground skills, including my friend who's a 2nd Dan in TKD and HKD, outweighed me by at least 30 lbs and has had over 50 streetfights and a room full of TKD/HKD trophies. I actually didn't submit him by cranking it until he taps, I just made it seem like he got out of it on his own by letting him go....because I was afraid to piss him off (it was locked in though).  It was grappling only, which puts him at a great disadvantage. If it was a full fight, he would have KO'ed me easily....his Boxing was also very good. This was in 2000 or so, when I had very little standup striking training.

In general, a pure BJJ White belt is going to suck at addressing punches and kicks coming at his face, and probably very scared of it. While a pure TKD Black belt is going to suck in the clinch and on the ground. When it comes to fighting... Black belts in TKD and TMA in general....can range anywhere from awesome to pure crap.  The only real way to find out is to put safety gear on and go for KO's to find out.


----------



## Cyriacus (Dec 8, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> for a start, "tappy kicks" wont score. They use electronic hogus where you set the power required to score points. They set the level to a point where  "weak snap kicks" wont score. Secondly, they keep their hands down for many reasons (I dont do wtf tkd, so there are others who could answer better), but there is no point keeping your hands up protecting your head if punches to the head arent allowed. There are other reasons, but I will leave that to the wtf guys to answer. I dont do wtf tkd, nor do I particularly like the sport side of tkd, but I know there are many misconceptions regarding it. I think most martial artists would get a real shock if they went and trained with  good sport tkd guys, I know I did.


Might i add: They dont use tappy kicks. They look tappy to some people because they dont have a swing to them. Its like how a hook looks more powerful than a straight. The standard round kick is a linear kick, not a circular kick. Because you dont see it travelling to its target until the actual leg extension occurs, it appears to be snappy and speed oriented. The reality is a bit different.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> for a start, "tappy kicks" wont score. They use electronic hogus where you set the power required to score points. They set the level to a point where  "weak snap kicks" wont score.



They're tappy compared to what I'm used to. I trained TKD. We try to kick with fast snaps for points.



> Secondly, they keep their hands down for many reasons (I dont do wtf tkd, so there are others who could answer better), but there is no point keeping your hands up protecting your head if punches to the head arent allowed.



Kicks to the head are allowed.



> There are other reasons, but I will leave that to the wtf guys to answer.



I just told you, it stabilizes your base and allows faster kicks, faster spins, etc.  



> I dont do wtf tkd, nor do I particularly like the sport side of tkd, but I know there are many misconceptions regarding it. I think most martial artists would get a real shock if they went and trained with  good sport tkd guys, I know I did.



Well I spar with plenty of TKD's and if they're pure TKD w/no Boxing or whatever, I usually wreck them by pressure fighting constantly at close range with punches. In the clinch, they don't know how to address knees, drive, knees, drive. On the ground, it would be worse. But hard to find any pure TKD's nowadays as most people crosstrain MMA.  Many in my MMA gym have TKD backgrounds. One guy has 12 years of TKD and does only BJJ now. Another is a 3rd Dan in TKD and was getting whopped by most people his level in Muay Thai. He's a much better fighter now after training only in MT.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Dec 8, 2012)

If you are sparring a real WTF rules player and they are throwing tappy kicks at you, they're either lying about being a real player or they're being nice to you. Those kicks may look tippy tappy on the tv screen, but they aren't that way when they hit you.


----------



## Cyriacus (Dec 8, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> They're tappy compared to what I'm used to. I trained TKD. We try to kick with fast snaps for points.



Congratulations: You learnt from an instructor who liked tappy kicks.


----------



## arnisador (Dec 8, 2012)

The Australian video clip was cute.

For me it's a paper-scissors-rock issue. Getting in close might fail, but basically it's a good strategy. You can jam someone up or cover and take a strike on an arm and get in and be in your own game.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> If you are sparring a real WTF rules player and they are throwing tappy kicks at you, they're either lying about being a real player or they're being nice to you. Those kicks may look tippy tappy on the tv screen, but they aren't that way when they hit you.



Well like I said, a Black belt in TKD can range anywhere from awesome to pure crap in a fight or hard sparring. I come from TKD, so I'm pretty sure I understand what's considered good. And I doubt they were being nice to me while I'm lighting them up.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Congratulations: You learnt from an instructor who liked tappy kicks.



False.  I actually learned from my friend who's used to be a street thug w/50+ streetfights and also an accomplished TKD/HKD competitor w/a separate room in his house to showcase all of his TKD trophies. His curriculum was very hybrid as he included Western Boxing and Muay Thai into it and we trained to fight.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> S Heres some footage of the footy show over here in australia where sam newman, an ex footballer, big bloke and loud mouth, who spent the olympics bagging out on our tkd fighters, had to put his money where his mouth is. Needless to say the little 50kg tkd guy wasnt even trying.



Looks like a comedy relief sketch where both sides are acting, badly.

Here's a good example of style vs. style (TKD vs. KB) where both are at the pro level.

The TKD quickly changed his stance and generally, his entire fighting style to KB/MT after seeing how bad he was getting wrecked using only his TKD background. He was still losing, but won a few.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Dec 8, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> False.  I actually learned from my friend who's used to be a street thug w/50+ streetfights and also an accomplished TKD/HKD competitor w/a separate room in his house to showcase all of his TKD trophies. His curriculum was very hybrid as he included Western Boxing and Muay Thai into it and we trained to fight.


I still dont get why he threw tappy kicks. No good tkd guy throws tappy kicks, I think he might be just having a lend of you.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2012)

Mark Weir in UFC 38, KO'd Eugene Jackson in 10 secs with a TKD kick to the head. Mark is TKD.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Dec 8, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Mark Weir in UFC 38, KO'd Eugene Jackson in 10 secs with a TKD kick to the head. Mark is TKD.


true Tez, there is a reason they wear head gear in tkd bouts, they certainly dont "tap" the head. Partcularly hook, spin hook etc where they connect with the heel. Ive seen many people knocked into next week with those kicks (and they were wearing head gear )


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I still dont get why he threw tappy kicks. No good tkd guy throws tappy kicks, I think he might be just having a lend of you.




Here you go:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwSJQlfq9wY&feature=plcp

And are you trying to suggest that someone would be just tippie-tapping me while I'm lighting up their face with my punches and their legs with my kicks?  He sure got me good then.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwSJQlfq9wY&feature=plcp
> 
> And are you trying to suggest that someone would be just tippie-tapping me while I'm lighting up their face with my punches and their legs with my kicks? He sure got me good then.



As you are unbeatable it wouldn't matter surely whether it's 'tippy tappy' or full on would it?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 8, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> As you are unbeatable it wouldn't matter surely whether it's 'tippy tappy' or full on would it?



They were probably going full on, but mz is too tough to notice.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Dec 8, 2012)

heres some footage of a nice little "tappy" kick


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2012)

Apropos nothing other than a faster KO than Mark's, here's Sami's 9 sec KO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrWZJCqQZTg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Sami's WC which of course has nothing to do with anything just thought it's a nice KO :ultracool


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> heres some footage of a nice little "tappy" kick



I expect the MT guy was faking it lol as surely TKD can't be that good! The TKD guy left because TKD is so poor he decided to become a MT fighter........ or perhaps that wasn't a real MT fighter!

Serously though, that was a nice KO. Thanks for posting.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Dec 8, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Here you go:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwSJQlfq9wY&feature=plcp
> 
> And are you trying to suggest that someone would be just tippie-tapping me while I'm lighting up their face with my punches and their legs with my kicks?  He sure got me good then.


No, you are the one suggesting he would just be "tippie tapping" while you were "lighting up their face with punches". Where did this guy get his black belt? obviously not somewhere where they spar hard.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Dec 8, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I expect the MT guy was faking it lol as surely TKD can't be that good! The TKD guy left because TKD is so poor he decided to become a MT fighter........ or perhaps that wasn't a real MT fighter!
> 
> Serously, though that was a nice KO. Thanks for posting.


surely you should know by now Tez, any footage of a muay thai guy owning a tkd guy is legit, but the other way around its always a "set up"


----------



## Prostar (Dec 8, 2012)

When the Budweiser starts talking it is time to stop listening.


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 8, 2012)

Folks, 
Let's keep things friendly, OK?  No personal shots, no sniping...  'cause I'd hate to have to put the mod hat on for folks that can't play nice.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> As you are unbeatable it wouldn't matter surely whether it's 'tippy tappy' or full on would it?



thanks holmes.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 8, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Folks,
> Let's keep things friendly, OK?  No personal shots, no sniping...  'cause I'd hate to have to put the mod hat on for folks that can't play nice.




Right on. You see this cat Mz1 is a bad mother-- (Shut your mouth) But I'm talkin' about Mz1.....

I vote lock it now, it will not end well based on who (1326A) is posting


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> heres some footage of a nice little "tappy" kick




Nice video, but what does that have to do with my stating that tippie-tappie TKD kicks is very common? 

And the guy in shorts looks like another TKD more than MT.

Guess you can't deny that tippie-tappie TKD does exist at high levels of TKD as I'd suggested. The video that I linked was from the Olympics too. Are you pretty new to TKD?


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I expect the MT guy was faking it lol as surely TKD can't be that good! The TKD guy left because TKD is so poor he decided to become a MT fighter........ or perhaps that wasn't a real MT fighter!
> 
> Serously though, that was a nice KO. Thanks for posting.




Tez3, you disappoint me. I thought that with all of your alleged, wealth of martial arts knowledge, "coaching pro fighters", ring-girl, etc... you would instantly see that the guy in shorts looks a lot more TKD than MT.    :uhyeah:


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 8, 2012)

:trollsign

and 1326A be one


----------



## arnisador (Dec 8, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> :trollsign
> 
> and 1326A be one



The people who enjoy mocking him rather than ignoring him if they disagree with his posts are an equal part of the problem.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> No, you are the one suggesting he would just be "tippie tapping" while you were "lighting up their face with punches". Where did this guy get his black belt? obviously not somewhere where they spar hard.



Well he couldn't set up his kicks as I was pressure fighting him constantly almost, always cutting him off and lots of jabs. Maybe that's why his kick felt real weak.

There are TKD guys in the same joint that can beat me, but they are MT and/or MMA with TKD background. One of our affiliate BJJ group rents space from this TKD school.  They were pure TKD for a very long time, but couldn't make ends meet as MMA was taking over so they transitioned into MMA. 

 I'm not saying that they all TKD do this, all of the time.... nor that they can't kick hard and KO someone out. Just that this is trained, OFTEN, for the purpose of scoring points in competition, as proven in that video from the OLYMPICS.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 8, 2012)

arnisador said:


> The people who enjoy mocking him rather than ignoring him if they disagree with his posts are an equal part of the problem.



well you know.... if one has a goal in mind...one must do what one can to achive said goal

MT has gotten worse and worse over the years as it applies to posters and ignoring, although preferred or required my MT is not always the correct way to go. Ignoring a problem or an issue rarely makes it go away. Saw a good web page go down to a whole lot like him that showed up because they were ignored and the good and knowledgeble posters left....page is still there... but it is worthless. And I like MT better than there so..... So I do what I feel I should.... but then... if calling a person what he is is mocking...so be it.

I still vote lock


----------



## oaktree (Dec 8, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> False.  I actually learned from my friend who's used to be a* street thug w/50+ streetfights* and also an accomplished TKD/HKD competitor w/a separate room in his house to showcase all of his TKD trophies. His curriculum was very hybrid as he included Western Boxing and Muay Thai into it and we trained to fight.


When ever I hear on a forum about anyone who has been in 50plus fights I think it is B.S.
   If you have been in over 50 street fights and you are not dead then either 1.You were never in 50 street fights 2.The street fights were not street fights 3.The people involved could not fight resulting in severe damage 4.You are just so good that you can beat anyone you ever encounter.
Usually in cases were wild claims are made the most logical choice is 1. or 2. 

But that is just my deduction maybe your friend is that rare case but its much more believable and rational to belief otherwise.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Dec 8, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Well he couldn't set up his kicks as I was pressure fighting him constantly almost, always cutting him off and lots of jabs. Maybe that's why his kick felt real weak.
> 
> There are TKD guys in the same joint that can beat me, but they are MT and/or MMA with TKD background. One of our affiliate BJJ group rents space from this TKD school.  They were pure TKD for a very long time, but couldn't make ends meet as MMA was taking over so they transitioned into MMA.
> 
> I'm not saying that they all TKD do this, all of the time.... nor that they can't kick hard and KO someone out. Just that this is trained, OFTEN, for the purpose of scoring points in competition, as proven in that video from the OLYMPICS.



It's possible that his kicks were weak because you were "lighting him up." Certainly, if someone is more talented or dominating you it can affect your game. If the Taekwondo guy was fighting under different rules than he was used to it could affect his mindset, as well, I suppose. It's impossible to say, really, as one person can't represent an entire style. 

I would say again, however, since you commented about the Olympics, that if you sparred with an actual Olympian I seriously doubt "tappy" is the word you would use to describe their kicks.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 8, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Nice video, but what does that have to do with my stating that tippie-tappie TKD kicks is very common?



You might want to discuss that with Benson Henderson (TKD BB) who just defended his title against Nate Diaz (known for his boxing).

Tippie-tappie boxers are, I would guess, just as common (or uncommon) as tippie-tappie TKDians.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> well you know.... if one has a goal in mind...one must do what one can to achive said goal
> 
> MT has gotten worse and worse over the years as it applies to posters and ignoring, although preferred or required my MT is not always the correct way to go. Ignoring a problem or an issue rarely makes it go away. Saw a good web page go down to a whole lot like him that showed up because they were ignored and the good and knowledgeble posters left....page is still there... but it is worthless. And I like MT better than there so..... So I do what I feel I should.... but then... if calling a person what he is is mocking...so be it.
> 
> I still vote lock



You're a hypocrite, why pretend


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 9, 2012)

oaktree said:


> When ever I hear on a forum about anyone who has been in 50plus fights I think it is B.S.



Understandable, I probably would too. My friend used to be in a gang. Pretty standard for new immigrants who would flock to certain areas of poor neighborhoods where there's lots of friction with the established Blacks there. His gang used to go out looking for fights. He had access to all kinds of drugs and indulged in them all. His favorite was PCP and Meth...said it allowed him to train like a madman with his TKD/HKD + Boxing. Then they'd go out looking for trouble. He had a death wish pretty much. And he wasn't the craziest guy neither...that guy did get murdered.



> If you have been in over 50 street fights and you are not dead then either



He's been shot 3x in 3 separate firefights. The big one, where the thugs said they're coming back with guns. He and his cousin waited for them at their grocery store. He, his father and an employee got shot. His family basically lost all of whatever wealth they had + went into serious debt from that shootout as their State didn't condone such and tried to prosecute him for public endangerment, etc... plus the employee that got shot, sued them.



> 1.You were never in 50 street fights 2.The street fights were not street fights 3.The people involved could not fight resulting in severe damage 4.You are just so good that you can beat anyone you ever encounter.
> Usually in cases were wild claims are made the most logical choice is 1. or 2.
> 
> But that is just my deduction maybe your friend is that rare case but its much more believable and rational to belief otherwise.



See, this is your problem... you have it all mapped out based on what some SD instructor(s) sold you in a seminar and DVD's afterward. Not every streetfight nor situation have to be some Mortal Kombat death match. Many of his fights were him punching out a customer that got lippy at his grocery store in a bad neighborhood. They'd go outside to settle it and he'd punch them in the face. Before they made money with the store, they lived in the ghettos. Blacks would call him the C-word and he would call them the N-word, and they'd fight. It doesn't take much to get into a showdown with someone in a bad neighborhood, now imagine calling them the N-word.  He said he'd called someone this in a crowded theater, etc. full of Black people.  He lived for this. He says he would hit the loudest N first and many times, the rest backs down (unless he was way outnumbered or they had weapons).

He fought other Asians too. He got jumped by 5 small Chinese guys once. He said he got hit more, but said they ran after seeing that he didn't show any signs of giving up.  The 5's ring leader was the younger brother of a Kung-Fu master near my house that I've known for over 20 years. That guy (the younger brother) also beat  up a couple of Black kids who made fun of him at my middle school when he was an FOB. I mean he  really beat the crap out them. He wasn't there during the 5-on-1 jump though.

It's been a long time and now he's cleaned up, has a family and made millions during the mortgage lending boom 10 years ago or so. He visited me at a Boxing gym in a Black neighborhood a few months ago and the manager there later asked me WTF is your friend's problem coming in here with an attitude like that (when the manager tried to sell him a membership)?  I  LMAO, he's still got it.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 9, 2012)

duplicate.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> You might want to discuss that with Benson Henderson (TKD BB) who just defended his title against Nate Diaz (known for his boxing).
> 
> Tippie-tappie boxers are, I would guess, just as common (or uncommon) as tippie-tappie TKDians.



Why would I want to discuss this with him? I never said that ALL TKD's are tippie-tappers. 

And no, Boxing gyms.....IN GENERAL..... are a lot more brutal in terms of frequency for sparring with 100% power for full KO's....much more than TKD schools. Even MMA don't spar for KO's as often as Boxing gyms do.


----------



## oaktree (Dec 9, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Understandable, I probably would too. My friend used to be in a gang. Pretty standard for new immigrants who would flock to certain areas of poor neighborhoods where there's lots of friction with the established Blacks there. His gang used to go out looking for fights. He had access to all kinds of drugs and indulged in them all. His favorite was PCP and Meth...said it allowed him to train like a madman with his TKD/HKD + Boxing. Then they'd go out looking for trouble. He had a death wish pretty much. And he wasn't the craziest guy neither...that guy did get murdered.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WOW a former meth super street thug in over 50 fights who none 
Fights Chinese kungfu gangs and grocery store customers. But IT 
Gets better he is now a millionare.  I knew gang members 
As well none were in over 50 Fights they were dead or serving life term sentences.
So again your millionare meth thug story is the biggest ******** story 
I ever read on this site.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Tez3, you disappoint me. I thought that with all of your alleged, wealth of martial arts knowledge, "coaching pro fighters", ring-girl, etc... you would instantly see that the guy in shorts looks a lot more TKD than MT. :uhyeah:




ring girl roflmao... now that has made my night, no, my entire weekend. Cheers!


----------



## Josh Oakley (Dec 9, 2012)

It is threads like this why I post less often.

Well... that and a heavy workload... and a life.

Look, 50+ fights isn't necessarily a big number. In the last 4 months, I have been in about 9 fights (I am doing loss prevention).

It doesn't necessarily make a guy an expert, either, though. Most of the guys I fought weren't very good fighters, thankfully. Onlybtwo have even attempted to throw punches, and the last guy rang my bell pretty good. But MOST just tried to wrestle. Even when I had a partner and they were outnumbered.

But I digress. The original post was about a guy who was dismissive of anyone who doesn't have that magical piece of cloth around their waist. That is a stupid idea, and I think most agree.

As far as what a TKD kick is... it runs the gamut. Some are "tippy-tappy" and some would ring your bell so hard it cracked. 

It comes down to the practioner. Every time.

As for this ridiculous bickering, quit. That's not what this site is about. If someone is getting personal, don't respond in kind, but don't ignore it. Report it. Let the mods deal with it. It really is that easy.

Now I am going to go slam my head into a wall. Thxbye.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 9, 2012)

Moderator Note:

Hints didn't work.  Thread's closed.  We'll be reviewing, and possibly handing out some infractions.

Folks -- get a clue.  You can disagree.  You can dislike each other.  But do it without insults, name-calling, and the rest of the crap that sent this thread down the crapper.  

jks9199
MT Assistant Administrator


----------

