# FMAs and Silat?



## SFC JeffJ (Oct 11, 2006)

It seems this is a pair up I see a lot of?  Can someone explain to me why?

Thanks,

Jeff


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## HKphooey (Oct 12, 2006)

Silat originated in Southeast Asia with roots in Indonesia, Malayia, Brunei (Malay Culture).  The cultures (food, traditions, language) of those countries are very similar to those of the Philippines an Thailand.  I used to work with a guy that was originally from Indonesia and sometimes trained with him.  Many of the terms I used were recognized by him.  Much of the language is very similar. So I was assume taht is why they are so closely tied together.

Silat later spread to Europe.  

Someone may have some more insight.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 12, 2006)

The different countries are just very close together and that is why I believe there is alot of similarities in their martial systems.


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## SFC JeffJ (Oct 12, 2006)

Thanks for the info!

Jeff


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## Black Grass (Oct 12, 2006)

Some people believe that connection between the two via a shared culture (malay)  and history (ancient) some how marries the two. I often think this is often played up to make FMA (arnis/eskrima/kali) seem 'cooler' or more esoteric. People who label there style onder the 'kali' are much more likely to try and bridge the two, and those people tend to be westerners or teach FMA in the west. 

These same people also tend to think that by making a connection between Silat and FMA, some how they are getting closer to the 'pure' or 'real' art. These same people tend to criticize style FMA styles that have incorporated karate or kung fu. To me its the samething, and I don't think that there is anything wrong with either.

Vince
aka Black Grass


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## Carol (Oct 12, 2006)

There are many different types of Silat, including Indonesian Silat and Filipino Silat.

(Chinese Kenpo...American Kenpo...)

While my school is largely considered to be an FMA school, my instructors (American and Filipina) are very clear about making the distinction between the Filipino lineages of our arts and the Indonesian lineages of our arts.  This is underscored by the biannual trips our school makes to the two countries.  Our school also teaches Wing Chun and Chi Gong.   I haven't trained in hardly any of the Chinese arts myself due to my work schedule. 

All I can really say (as a newbie student) is that the way Guro Mike and Guro May Williams teach...everything just flows magically.   Its a fantastic experience, and am greatly looking forward learning more and more.


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## Tarot (Oct 12, 2006)

Culture aside, and just looking at the mechanics of the arts, I think they are paired together and go well together because of their movements.  FMA is all moving and flowing.  Getting the upper hand by being fluid.

If you look at the silat moves, they are the same way.  It's all about being fluid and moving around.  You can't do silat if you aren't moving around! :  

Just my opinion.  :asian:


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## SFC JeffJ (Oct 12, 2006)

I have to admit, the reason why I'm interested in this connection is purely 'cause of the karambit.  Looks like a cool and nasty little weapon.  Then again, I'm also interested in Bando 'cause of the uses of the kukri.

Jeff


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## Tarot (Oct 12, 2006)

Ahhhh the kermabit!  Yes a sweet little weapon isn't it?   I wouldn't mind learning some moves myself.

I did attend a seminar by Datu Worden and we did some travel wrench work.  Which was fantastic!  His travel wrench is based off of the kermabit.  And it was very interesting learning how to work with it.


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## kailat (Oct 12, 2006)

If I may for a brief moment add something here.  The questions is really to be glanced at from a perspective of not only by way of origin or distinct navigational seperations.  Let's look at the two in general.

Indonesian-Malay Culture is very Muslamic in nature, it's what adversely tied the two seperate intities together between the Philippine culture.  

In the historical approach that the Spaniards came to force Christianity onto the Archipelago Islands (PI) the more traditional farmers or villagers if you will still remained Muslamic in faith.  Hence forth probably having a more common trade tie with the Indo people.  

Not only trading: common things such as Alcohol, fur, foods, fruits, veggies, clothing, women (lol) etc... but the martial arts experiences as well.

Tying the two together in this essence as someone put it, is simple the motions are very unique and very strategic in the same sense.  They share simularities rather then differences.  

the art of using the BLADE (kali) however, Silat is a very unique as well as a primary blade art as well..CONNECTION in my own opinion lies right there..


Here's a good link that explains alot..

http://server3.myebiz.com/robertotorres/history.html

read slowly and carefully as to i hope it opens some opinions...

Just some food for thought guys and gals


Gumagalang

guro Cory


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## kailat (Oct 12, 2006)

History of Kali (Silat)
*Kali (Silat)* is an ancient form of martial art of Indonesia and the Philippines.  Before Spanish colonization, the Philippine area was part of the old Indonesian empires.  It is traced back to the Sri Vishayan Empire in Sumatra in the 5th century with Hindu-Malayan influence by Arab missionaries. 

Chinese records note that in 983 a ship owned or commanded by an Arab and loaded with valuable merchandise arrived in Khanlu (Canton) from Ma-i or Mo-yi (the Mayid of the Arabs).  Maj is an island in the Philippines, either Mindoro or Luzon.  Eventually, this led to Ma-i Nila or Maynila and on to Manila.

By tradition, the art of *Kali (Silat)* always played alongside its counterparts, the other Indonesian martial arts of the Silat, Pentjak, and Kuntao.  *Kali (Silat)* is a martial art practiced by the Indonesians during the Indonesian empires.  Tribal cheftains such as Sultans, Datus, and Rajahs and their warriors fought with this ancient art.  Magellan and his men were defeated by Lapu-Lapu and his warriors with *Kali (Silat)*, not Escrima or Arnis as popularly known.  *Kali (Silat)* is the forerunner and mother art of Escrima and Arnis.

Filipino martial arts were flourishing in the Philippine islands at the time of the arrival of the Spanish conquistadors in the fifteen century. The Filipino martial arts were practiced and established before this time and its roots can be traced back to the Indonesian empires and the Hindu Malayan Arab missionaries. Filipino native arts promote employment of several categories of self-defense.​
Empty hand tactics _Panantukan, Sikaran _[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
Short blade & swords _Balaraw, Sisip, Klewang _[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
Clubs & short sticks _Baston,Olisi,Garrote _[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
Staffs, lances, spears _Belok, Bankaw, Sibat _[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
Projectile weapons, blow guns _Sumpit_, bow & arrows _Busog pana (These can all be classified as Pana.)_[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
Shields _Taming, Kalasag_. [SIZE=+0][/SIZE]

One of the advantages that the Filipinos found by using the hard stick _Garrote_ for example, it could be wielded fluently like a sword and yet deliver a fatal blows by striking the hand or leg portion of the opponents anatomy. Delivering such a blow to the bone structure would leave the enemy not only defenseless but useless. Never to be able to handle a weapon again. The wound from a blade could at times be stitched and healed. With such a fatal blow to the bone with a hard stick it would fracture the bone into small pieces like an egg shell. Never to be healed properly again. This also was an effective defensive in battle against the Spanish Conquistadors since most of them armed themselves with protective metal breast plates & helmets to deflect or stop any sword penetration that may be aimed at the body and head.

Commonly known systems and styles throughout the Filipino islands that employ weaponry defenses can be identified under three names. *Kali (Silat), Escrima* and *Arnis*. The word _Escrima_ comes from the French term  "To fence" or "Fencing". _Arnis_ comes from the Spanish phrase  "Arnis De Mano", (To harness the hands). These two styles came into existence in the Filipino islands during the Spanish colonization period in the sixteenth century. The ancient word *Kali (Silat)* is said to have come from several recourses some predict it comes from the two word syllables _Kamut_ which means "Hand" and _Lihok_ which means "Movement". In short this translates to Hand Movement with or with out weaponry. Some believe it comes from the ancient art of India called _Velakali_ or "Sword play". Were others have predicted that the Moro's warriors of the southern Philippine resemble the Hindu Goddess of death called _Kali_ when they engaged into battle.

Although all three systems are found in the Philippines and are similar, each one has a specific fighting method that identifies its style of defense. *Arnis* is characterized by fencing stances and whip like strikes, due to the influence of weaponry, such as the Spanish saber and fencing foil. *Kali (Silat)*, is characterized by angles of attack with flamboyant circular footwork patterns. This is due from Moro warriors and Indonesian influences. *Escrima*, employs fast whip like motions and slashes to its rapture.Other forms of defense and cultural combative arts from the Philippines include kickboxing also known as *Panantukan* (punching) and *Sikaran* (kicking). This effective fighting technique is employed in the same fashion as the weaponry portion of the Filipino arts.

One of the concepts in Panantukan / Sikaran is to target and destroy the opponents hands and  legs  leaving the opponent immobile and unable to deliver blows. This fighting method along with stick fighting matches were active among the Filipino cultures as a sporting event and entertainment. Filipino boxers would wrap their hands, forearms and shins with cotton gauze to enhance their kicking and punching strategies against one another in the ring. Focusing on destroying the opponents hands, arm, shoulders, knees and feet would leave one weaponless unable to throw blows. Filipino empty hand techniques like Silat and Panantukan  move with fluid rhythmic motions that simulate the same movement as the sword and stick weaponry portion of the Filipino martial arts.

Wrestling and grappling are other forms of combat that can be found throughout the Filipino martial arts. *Magakos* ( to hold), *Kunsi* and *Dongab* (to lock) and *Tomba* (to throw) are rare forms of Filipino wrestling techniques. Some of  these wrestling forms can be found throughout the Philippines, but mostly were practiced and seen among the Philippine fishing villages along the coastline  islands.

One of the main concepts that the Filipino martial arts preaches is to translate the identical angles from swords, sticks, knives and empty hands while attacking and defending without having to change the arts format. Which will create a self defense system that moves with symmetry against weapons or empty hand tactics without having to remember many techniques but only fluid offensive and defensive motions that destroy what ever it may encounter. But above all one of the most important aspects that the Filipino martial arts combined are strong spiritual beliefs and cultural philosophies where it becomes synchronized with the practitioner, forever embracing the Filipino culture within oneself.​
_"Kali is the ancient form of the martial arts of Indonesia and the Philippines. Before the Spanish colonization, the Philippines was always part of the old Indonesian empires back to the Sri Vishayan Empire in Sumatra in the 5th century with Hindu-Malayan influence by Arab missionaries. Chinese records note that in 983 AD a ship owned or commanded by an Arab and loaded with valuable merchandise arrived in Khanlu (Canton) from Ma-I or Mo-yi (the Mayid of the Arabs). Mai is an island in the Philippines. Eventually this led to Ma-I Nila or Maynila and then to Manila. The old art of kali was always played alongside its counterparts, the other Indonesian martial arts of silat, pentjak, and kuntao. Kali was the martial art practiced by the Indonesians during the Indonesian empires. Tribal chieftains such as the sultans, datus, and rajahs and their warriors fought with this ancient art. Magellan and his men were defeated by Chief Lapu-Lapu and his warriors with kali - not escrima or arnis as is said and written in some places_"​


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## SFC JeffJ (Oct 12, 2006)

kailat said:


> History of Kali (Silat)
> *Kali (Silat)* is an ancient form of martial art of Indonesia and the Philippines.  Before Spanish colonization, the Philippine area was part of the old Indonesian empires.  It is traced back to the Sri Vishayan Empire in Sumatra in the 5th century with Hindu-Malayan influence by Arab missionaries.
> 
> Chinese records note that in 983 a ship owned or commanded by an Arab and loaded with valuable merchandise arrived in Khanlu (Canton) from Ma-i or Mo-yi (the Mayid of the Arabs).  Maj is an island in the Philippines, either Mindoro or Luzon.  Eventually, this led to Ma-i Nila or Maynila and on to Manila.
> ...


Thanks for the info and the links!

Jeff


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## Perpetual White Belt (Oct 12, 2006)

Since I've been introduced to Silat in the past year, I've started including it into the FMA that I teach. I find that the footwork and flow of the techniques compliment each other nicely.


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## Black Grass (Oct 13, 2006)

kailat said:


> History of Kali (Silat)
> *Kali (Silat)* is an ancient form of martial art of Indonesia and the Philippines.  Before Spanish colonization, the Philippine area was part of the old Indonesian empires.  It is traced back to the Sri Vishayan Empire in Sumatra in the 5th century with Hindu-Malayan influence by Arab missionaries.
> ....
> 
> ​​



Kailit,

Many of the points brought up here are actually contentions issues. Some historians believe that the Philippines was not part of the Majapahit emprie and the influence of the Sri Vishayan empire was negligible. The term "Kali" itself (as you probably know) has questionable origins as does the claim its the "mother" art of eskrima or arnis.


Vince


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## Carol (Oct 13, 2006)

"Silat" is a word that means "self defense".  From what I understand, the term is sometimes used in a generic fashion...much like westerners use the term "Karate" in a generic fashion.


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## kailat (Oct 13, 2006)

Yes, i've heard and not sure my position on the TERM KALI as the "mother art" etc.... to me its all hearsay and to be honest its not the name that really counts at this particular point.  However, im not going to say its not interesting nonetheless to try to follow and pin point what came from where etc..

I spent quite some time when i first started studying FMA to all the historical aspects etc.. and all it really verified is "NO-ONE knows anything for certain"  But thats the great thing about history I guess...No one really knows anything for certain... So I really stopped beating myself up on the whole controversy of it..

Kali-Silat, Eskrima/Escrima, Arnis/Arnis De Mano, etc... just use whatever term suites you... in the end the essence of FMA and INDO arts are what we make of them for ourselves really.  

Like It was just briefly mentioned the terms in most languages are merely "GENERIC" terms meaning Self-Defense.
Look at KARATE god ive seen it taught in so many variables and to say Karate is this or Karate is that, is just a mirage of a cluster of everything IMO.

I just stick to what and where it was passed down to me as KALI-SILAT.

But as i crossed trained in Serrada Escrima also, at first i seen so much difference between that and the Kali I initially started training in.. and although there are differences in the end its the same in essence.. So who really knows'

As Bruce Lee stated once: " When i first started studying Martial Arts a Kick was just a kick and a punch just a punch, as i began to understand the arts a kick no longer just a kick and a punch was no longer just a punch, and then as I spent and started teaching the arts again a kick was just a kick and a punch a punch.."  So i think it can all be handed the same in truth.

As my Teacher once told me and I don't know the truth to this or if it has any validity at all.. its all just again hearsay.. HE said " Ahh the Pilipino's were great fighters and yet great story tellers and "theives" as in they stole from this system and took from that system and said THIS IS KALI."  
Although i find that a bit comical im beginning to wonder how much truth to it there really is!  Who knows... 

Just in the realm of it all, i wouldn't spend a whole lot of time beating your self up on what came from where, and what system is what and why.. just study, train and perfect it.... when you get there.. CALL it what you want.. Hell I refer to it as "who flung poo" sometimes..LOL...

have a great weekend

Cory


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## Carol (Oct 26, 2006)

Went to a Silat seminar last weekend with GM Edward Lebe, who traveled here from Indonesia and I was able to see a deeper perspective of how the FMAs and Silat fit together.

Something that was mentioned briefly by someone at school...but not really discussed, was the political boundaries of the region.   The Malay people encompass the islands of Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines, and there is much to the culture that is shared.  Likewise, someone in Southeast Asia would observe that there is much to Canadian and American culture that is shared....and we've only been around for a couple hundred years.  

Like the Philippines, Indonesia has a very very deep bladed culture.  Not everyone thinks of Silat as a bladed art as blade work in Silat is generally not taught in the beginning.  However, the combat forms of Silat were used for warfare.  The moves are done to either inflict a deadly injury or to put the attacker in a position where he can be easily finished off.  

Not pleasant stuff I know.   Combat never is.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 26, 2006)

Well it has been said before so I feel comfortable saying it again :
"There is no silat without the blade"   Silat is defiantely a bladed, weapon based art.  Carol you are absolutely right though that many people do not teach the bladed aspects until students achieve some fundamental empty hand movement.


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## Bill Bednarick (Oct 31, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well it has been said before so I feel comfortable saying it again :
> "There is no silat without the blade"   Silat is defiantely a bladed, weapon based art.  Carol you are absolutely right though that many people do not teach the bladed aspects until students achieve some fundamental empty hand movement.



In the Silat and Kuntaw I've been exposed to the bladed aspects are there from the beginning, but the beginners normally don't see them since they don't have a base of referance to work from.

Later when the training blades come out you realize it's what you were doing all along only you are armed. It tends to be the same with the stick work too.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 31, 2006)

Hey Bill,

That is definately a good way of putting it.  The bladed, stick, tool based aspects are always there but the student does not know about it until the training blades come out.  Good post!


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