# Need more advice in cane fight practice



## Alan0354

Hi,  it's been 5 months since my last videos asking for advice. I have been practicing and I just record two new videos. I am disappointed in what I see in the video, I need advice what to concentrate on. 

I have been practicing on fighting in more confined space. Learning from Lamont Glass on casting and watched video on some footwork. I still feel my movement is too slow. Before, I swing the full arc like what are showing in a lot of escrima instruction video from one shoulder swinging a full arc and stop at the opposite shoulder. That takes a lot of space. In demonstration or competition where you have a whole big space with nothing in the way, it's not a problem. But in self defense situation when it can be in the restaurant with people, table and chairs in the way, you really cannot swing a big arc. So I practice casting where I don't swing wide and STOP right pass the hitting point. BUT, it's much harder to generate speed. 

The first video is just like the former ones:





The second video is swinging in confined space. I did it in the entry way of the house, using the door posts as target, so it's like 6 targets in a small confined space. Took me a while to get the control not to hit anything:





Please advice how to improve and what I should work on.

Thanks


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

There's something that I don't recall in any of your videos-it's always possible I missed it or am just forgetting. But I don't think I've seen you practicing either A) blocking with your cane, B) the initial 'draw', where you start from just holding it to grabbing it with both hands and swinging. There are a couple training methods for both, that might help you out when you're ready to change your direction a bit.

Something else that occurred to me as I was writing that-I know in the past you've focused on making sure that you can hold onto the cane, and your goal is to make sure you don't let go of it. But it may be worth thinking about what you will do if you do let go (either from dropping it, rain making your hands slippery for instance, or someone actively disarming you/hitting your hand so you drop it), and practicing whatever your recovery will be.


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## Alan0354

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> There's something that I don't recall in any of your videos-it's always possible I missed it or am just forgetting. But I don't think I've seen you practicing either A) blocking with your cane, B) the initial 'draw', where you start from just holding it to grabbing it with both hands and swinging. There are a couple training methods for both, that might help you out when you're ready to change your direction a bit.
> 
> Something else that occurred to me as I was writing that-I know in the past you've focused on making sure that you can hold onto the cane, and your goal is to make sure you don't let go of it. But it may be worth thinking about what you will do if you do let go (either from dropping it, rain making your hands slippery for instance, or someone actively disarming you/hitting your hand so you drop it), and practicing whatever your recovery will be.


Thanks for the reply. I'd have to tape the innitial draw again. As for blocking, I am practicing alone, it's hard to practice blocking. So I just not practice at all and concentrate on striking and moving away after the strike.

As for securing the cane, if you watch in slow motion, you'll see I have a rope loop around my left wrist so the cane will not fly off. Actually I practice a lot on swinging to hit a deflated and weighted speed bag. I aim at the bottom tip to make to harder to hit and miss a lot. This is to train to hold onto the cane when I miss. I have to make another video on hitting the heavy bag, the car is in the way today, I have to find a day my big boss drives out to tape the video of hitting the bag in the garage.

Here is a still picture of the rope around my wrist:





I am not using a rubber foot so it's hard for the opponent to hold onto the cane and pull it away from me.


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## Tony Dismukes

A couple of thoughts just from a quick glance…

You’re powering your strikes almost entirely from your arms. If you practice engaging the large muscles in your back, core, hips, and legs to drive the cane you will get more power, more speed, and more control.

You also have a very close grip on the cane with your two hands. If you spread your hands a little further apart you will get better leverage and better control. I personally like about a fist’s distance between my two hands, but experiment and find what works best for you.

One reason you feel like you lack speed is that you are relying on your arm strength to stop the cane as well as swing it. When you throw these “casting” style strikes I see you are actually applying the brakes early with your arms in an effort to make the cane stop at the desired point. Once you learn to use your body to control the cane then you won’t have to apply the brakes so early and slow yourself down.


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## dvcochran

The one thing that really jumps out to me is your center of balance. It appears you are off center, forward biased almost all the time. This makes you ripe for someone to simply grab the cane/weapon, pull it toward themself, and knock you off your base. Especially since your hands are busy holding the weapon this is a big problem.


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## JowGaWolf

Tony Dismukes said:


> One reason you feel like you lack speed is that you are relying on your arm strength to stop the cane as well as swing it. When you throw these “casting” style strikes I see you are actually applying the brakes early with your arms in an effort to make the cane stop at the desired point. Once you learn to use your body to control the cane then you won’t have to apply the brakes so early and slow yourself down.


It may be due to the weight of the cane.  I know heavier weapons tend to naturally flow and lighter weapons tend to start and stop.  



Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Something else that occurred to me as I was writing that-I know in the past you've focused on making sure that you can hold onto the cane, and your goal is to make sure you don't let go of it.


I took your perspective and went and looked at the video again.  This time instead of just thinking of advice I can give about the swing. I took a "larger view."  when I did, I found myself thinking of the same things I train for staff.  Here's what went through my mind.

*Question:  *How would I attack Alan if he was swinging a cane?

*Analysis:* Rush him. After rushing him it wouldn't matter if he held onto the cane. As long as that cane is bound to his hand he's not going to be able to defend with that hand once that cane get's tangled in the scuffle. His inability to let go of the cane provides me with some opportunity. Alan not being able to slide the hands along the cane also opens some opportunities for me. I'm reminded of swords and machetes. We don't see them being bound to the wrist with rope and leather for a reason. On the most basic level, say the bound hand gets injured. you couldn't switch to the weapon to the good hand.

Swings to the head with a blunted weapon can be dulled by covering my head as I rush in.  With a bladed weapons the swings would be critical, with a blunted weapon I can take a hit so long as I'm not on the power end of the swing.  We have often seen this happen to people who spar in dog brothers.  It's also the thing that I'm most sensitive to when training staff.  "What if they rush me"  is an event that I have to prepare for with the staff and I'm seeing some of the same weaknesses with this cane 

With my staff I train about 80% close range staff fighting and 20% long range all because I know the likely hood of being rushed is a real one.  This actually keep me from being worried about my staff being taken from me.

*Answer*:  I would bait the swing and not the poke.  Give him the target he wants if he's not willing to take it on his own.  Then close the distance.  The closer in I am the less he'll be able to do with that cane.  Especially because the cane is secure to his wrist.  He would have trouble with pulling the cane through.


*Thoughts on training: * I think at this point he should be mixing it up with strikes and attacks.   Drill is one thing but usable combinations is another.  I would train a few combinations based on situations. 
1. Keeping distance
2. Engaging long range
3. Engaging close range.
4. Protect weapon counters  "what if someone tries to take the cane away."


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## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> Hi,  it's been 5 months since my last videos asking for advice. I have been practicing and I just record two new videos. I am disappointed in what I see in the video, I need advice what to concentrate on.
> 
> I have been practicing on fighting in more confined space. Learning from Lamont Glass on casting and watched video on some footwork. I still feel my movement is too slow. Before, I swing the full arc like what are showing in a lot of escrima instruction video from one shoulder swinging a full arc and stop at the opposite shoulder. That takes a lot of space. In demonstration or competition where you have a whole big space with nothing in the way, it's not a problem. But in self defense situation when it can be in the restaurant with people, table and chairs in the way, you really cannot swing a big arc. So I practice casting where I don't swing wide and STOP right pass the hitting point. BUT, it's much harder to generate speed.
> 
> The first video is just like the former ones:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second video is swinging in confined space. I did it in the entry way of the house, using the door posts as target, so it's like 6 targets in a small confined space. Took me a while to get the control not to hit anything:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please advice how to improve and what I should work on.
> 
> Thanks


I the only that came to mind when I originally watched this is that your breathing seems to be off.  It's like you are holding your breath during the strikes.


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## Oily Dragon

One strike to the head with any moderately heavy stick can lead to brain inury or death.  We talked about this earlier.  20 oz is more than enough. The Dog Brothers train with head protection for a reason.

Its all fun and games until your friend's brains get scrambled.

I would never personally rush a crazy man swinging a cane, but that's just me.


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## Holmejr

You might be interested in this or aspects of it…


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## Holmejr

Oily Dragon said:


> One strike to the head with any moderately heavy stick can lead to brain inury or death.  We talked about this earlier.  20 oz is more than enough. The Dog Brothers train with head protection for a reason.
> 
> Its all fun and games until your friend's brains get scrambled.
> 
> I would never personally rush a crazy man swinging a cane, but that's just me.


Sure you would. If combat was eminent and i couldn’t back up, run away, I would attempt to close in, hopefully to negate being hit full force. Unless he is specifically trained, he would probably have no answer for the onslaught. Probably. We practice this scenario as honestly as we can. It definitely awakens your senses…


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## Dirty Dog

Oily Dragon said:


> One strike to the head with any moderately heavy stick can lead to brain inury or death.


Can. Probably won't. Especially if you partially block/deflect/move with the swing.


Oily Dragon said:


> I would never personally rush a crazy man swinging a cane, but that's just me.


You should... the best way to reduce or negate the damage of a blunt weapon of this sort is to get inside it's arc.


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## Oily Dragon

Dirty Dog said:


> Can. Probably won't. Especially if you partially block/deflect/move with the swing.
> 
> You should... the best way to reduce or negate the damage of a blunt weapon of this sort is to get inside it's arc.


Isn't that the second best way?


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## Alan0354

Thanks guys for the responses, I have been very busy because of Christmas get together. Grand daughter is still staying with us. I will answer in more detail later.

1) I did read the first response. I do notice I don't use my shoulder to swing. There are a lot of stuffs involve particular mixing in the footwork, I lost track of my shoulders. I have been practicing using my shoulder right now. It is hard to use wider steps and turn the shoulder when strike.

2) I notice myself, I did not hold the cane close to my body enough still, I need to make sure I pull the cane back close to my body whenever I am not striking. This will give me more distant for the hand to travel before hitting the opponent to gather more speed.

3) You guys talk about rushing me. I have been practicing using the Wing Chun step kick to the knee if someone grab my cane. I also practice kicking between the legs of the opponent in this situation. I was concentrating on striking and poking, I did not show that move. I want to keep the video to about 30sec.

Also, I make my first strike to the knee instead to the head. On top of I try not to kill the person, it is much harder to grab the cane when I strike low. The idea is strike low, the natural response is he tries to reach down, then the second strike is high while his hands are trying to reach down for the cane.

4) As for the strap around the wrist, it's a double edge sword. I was just thinking that I am not exactly weak, still doing a lot of weight training. What me you think I cannot win over if they try to pull my cane away? I have to really think about which is more important, protecting the cane or being grabbed.

I'll respond in more detail later.

You guys talk a lot about rushing me, what is the best way to use the cane then? I don't think I am doing anything that other people don't do.

Thanks


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## Rich Parsons

Tony Dismukes said:


> A couple of thoughts just from a quick glance…
> 
> You’re powering your strikes almost entirely from your arms. If you practice engaging the large muscles in your back, core, hips, and legs to drive the cane you will get more power, more speed, and more control.
> 
> You also have a very close grip on the cane with your two hands. If you spread your hands a little further apart you will get better leverage and better control. I personally like about a fist’s distance between my two hands, but experiment and find what works best for you.
> 
> One reason you feel like you lack speed is that you are relying on your arm strength to stop the cane as well as swing it. When you throw these “casting” style strikes I see you are actually applying the brakes early with your arms in an effort to make the cane stop at the desired point. Once you learn to use your body to control the cane then you won’t have to apply the brakes so early and slow yourself down.


Alan,

The Casting is great technique to learn and works.
For me, I have found that it works best against an object - e.g. Heavy Bag.

The arms is where all your work is coming from so it will be tiring and seem slow and may not look correctly to you in your videos.

Getting the body (Shoulders and Hips) into the equation is the next step. Yes, this is a process and sometimes you learn something to help with a concept and body motion and then have to move past the rest to move to the next step. That is not the case here, just pointing it out for the future.

Take the advice a slight larger distance start with about an inch more between the hands.
This next will be slow training until you get it and then it can be sped up.

Start in the air, keep your primary hand at about 90 degreed from forearm to cane.
pick your target, - Door or corner - pick something you don't want to hit and damage, and then slowly try to hit the object but stop about 5 inches (~13 cm) short and later 3 (~8 cm)  and then maybe even 1 inch (2 to 3  cm).

Now to get the target (tip of the cane) close to the target, you will need to move your body. So try not to move your shoulders. Stick an empty glass case (soft) or deck of cars under your primary arm pit and this will help you keep your elbows in and not rely upon shoulders.
This will then get you to move your torso. The easiest way to begin this, is to place your weight on the side where the stick is coming from. The weight can be 51-99 % what ever is comfortable and makes sense for distance to target and how far you have to rotate.
The weight bearing knee will be bent.
The hips will rotate into / with the strike.
Yes it will seem like one is chopping with an axe.

Why is this a good next step?
Simple Force equals Mass times Acceleration. Once you get your torso and hips into the moving equation the force is increase.
example: 75 kg man swings with just their arms at 5 kg (Easy math not real) and they accelerate at factor 2 then force would be 10
If one then adds in their torso and get say 25 kg of movement with the same factor of 2 for acceleration this provides a value of 50 .
That means one would have to move at the acceleration rate of 10 to get the same results for force.

*** To Math/Physics/Engineers/PT/Doctors et al: Yes, I know there are lots of partial losses and vectors and the absolute is not as great as this example, yet the point is made clear I hope.

Once you get your control down slowly, move to the bag and go slowly there as well.
After the new target is comfortable then change the stopping point to be an inch or two (2 - 6 cm) inside the bag.
Yes the cane will "Stick" to the target. This is part of the training to make sure your weight is moving.

Then shift your weight to the other side and try again from the other side.

Now that this is comfortable, break the 90 degree angle and cast at the end of the strike with the bag.
When practicing without a bag as the target, keep the 90 Degrees to help with the body absorbing the force as it stops versus the wrist and shoulders.

Good Luck


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## JowGaWolf

Oily Dragon said:


> One strike to the head with any moderately heavy stick can lead to brain inury or death.  We talked about this earlier.  20 oz is more than enough. The Dog Brothers train with head protection for a reason.
> 
> Its all fun and games until your friend's brains get scrambled.
> 
> I would never personally rush a crazy man swinging a cane, but that's just me.


It's just the reality of the weakness.  That would come with a stick or cane.  If Alan's going to rely on that cane for self-defense then he should at least know where it's weak.










cccccc


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## JowGaWolf

Dirty Dog said:


> Can. Probably won't. Especially if you partially block/deflect/move with the swing.
> 
> You should... the best way to reduce or negate the damage of a blunt weapon of this sort is to get inside it's arc.


It's the end of a bat that hits the home run.  Don't hang out at the end of the bat when it swings lol.


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## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> 3) You guys talk about rushing me. I have been practicing using the Wing Chun step kick to the knee if someone grab my cane. I also practice kicking between the legs of the opponent in this situation. I was concentrating on striking and poking, I did not show that move. I want to keep the video to about 30sec.
> 
> Also, I make my first strike to the knee instead to the head. On top of I try not to kill the person, it is much harder to grab the cane when I strike low. The idea is strike low, the natural response is he tries to reach down, then the second strike is high while his hands are trying to reach down for the cane.


Kicks to the knee tend to work when someone's  slowly coming in.  I have yet to see someone including myself use one when someone rushes in.  The problem with kick to the knee is that there's not much room for adjusting the kick.  If you kick to soon then you'll find yourself in a grappling nightmare.  If you kick too late then your kick will be jammed which is the normal outcome for such a kick.  There is also the risk of missing the kick.    The cost of not landing a kick is less when the person isn't rushing.  

Strikes to the knee.  This works well for someone for when your opponent isn't active but when they are rushing in.  You won't have a clean shot on a moving knee.  That gap can be closed much faster than you expect.  If you have to pull back for your swing to hit, then you probably won't beat the rush.  This is the same mistake that people make when they try to punch or kick someone rushing in.


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## Tony Dismukes

Alan0354 said:


> You guys talk a lot about rushing me, what is the best way to use the cane then?


If you are in an open space with plenty of room to move, then backing up (using angles, not straight back) while throwing continuous power shots is the way to go. Most people can take at least one good shot or a few light ones but if they run into 3 or 4  or 5 power shots while rushing in then they tend to run out of steam.

If you don't have room to move, then you're going to need at least the fundamentals of grappling clinchwork once they get in.

If you have at least a little room to move, then cutting an angle can give you a chance to shuck off your attacker's clinch or at least land an extra shot on their way in. It takes more practice to pull that off at close quarters though.


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## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> You guys talk a lot about rushing me, what is the best way to use the cane then? I don't think I am doing anything that other people don't do.


A better sentence would be. 

I think I'm doing things that other people don't do..  Most people try to strike their way out of someone rushing in, and they usually end up on their back, getting their face pounded.  There are short range fighting techniques for sticks and canes that doesn't involve swinging. Most follow the same mechanics as a staff.  You are just using something shorter.  So some options won't be there but new ones will be available.

There are 2 main concerns you'll be faced with:
1. *Someone grabs you*. - You'll need a partner for this (not a good time for this type of training.
2. *Someone grabs the cane* i- n an effort to take it away from you.. (you train this solo)

I'll have to find some legit stick grappling.  I ran into a bunch of stuff that was too complicated.  I prefer some simple stuff.  I had some posted on video one.  With me training with my son. It was only one technique but it was easy.

Notice 13:28 that it's the poke that stops the charge and not the slaps with the stick.


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## Dirty Dog

Oily Dragon said:


> Isn't that the second best way?


No. Assuming you have to fight them unarmed, it's the best way. If you don't have to fight them, that's great. Another great option is to shoot them from a distance. But if it's your hands and their club, your best bet is to get inside.


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## Alan0354

I really have to stop and read every comment later, I just don't have the time at this moment. I definitely will read them.

At the mean time, I read the first two or three replies and I watch the video and I totally agree. I did not use my shoulder at all, also I let the cane hang out too far from my body. So in the last few days, I really try to correct that first. Here is a quick video, please ignore the original video and comment on this one as a starting point. When I watch the original videos, it's embarrassing, so I want to make this new one quickly. To me, at least it looks a lot better.

I still need time to practice, I only practice a few days on this. But I think it is a start:






I cheated also, I use my old shorter cane that was in the video in July, it's 2" shorter and about 2oz lighter. I figure after I put in the time practicing, I will get back to the heavier cane. YES, seems like I can swing faster using the shoulder, waist and feet. Just like punching.

BTW, what is a good length of the cane? The one I use lately is 31" 20oz. The shorter one is 29" and 18oz. Seems like for self defense where it usually in more confined and crowed space, a shorter cane is actually better. I am not using the cane for walking, so shorter doesn't matter.

I read quickly about being rushed. I hope with a heavier cane, even though I cannot land in optimal way, but just the weigh of the cane can do enough damage. I don't know grappling and I won't have a partner to work with, so that's not something I can practice. I have enough injuries already, I don't think I want to go to a grappling school to learn for my own well being.

Thanks


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## Oily Dragon

Dirty Dog said:


> No. Assuming you have to fight them unarmed, it's the best way. If you don't have to fight them, that's great. Another great option is to shoot them from a distance. But if it's your hands and their club, your best bet is to get inside.


So assuming you can't just stay the hell away from the crazy guy swinging the stick...that's tough to swallow, but ok.  I'd prefer to stay away, but if I HAVE to attack the man with the stick, it's best to rush.  Got it. 

Thunderdome.

I would attack the legs, again that's just me.


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## Dirty Dog

Oily Dragon said:


> So assuming you can't just stay the hell away from the crazy guy swinging the stick...that's tough to swallow, but ok.  I'd prefer to stay away, but if I HAVE to attack the man with the stick, so it's best to rush.  Got it.


Is it? You live a sheltered life then. Lucky you. Let's see if I can come up with a few reasons why you can't stay away...
They are between me and the exit.
Running away will expose others to the persons attacks.
I'm at work. In which case the above would apply.


Oily Dragon said:


> Thunderdome.
> 
> I would attack the legs, again that's just me.


How do you plan to do that without getting smacked by their weapon?


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## Oily Dragon

Dirty Dog said:


> Is it? You live a sheltered life then. Lucky you. Let's see if I can come up with a few reasons why you can't stay away...
> They are between me and the exit.
> Running away will expose others to the persons attacks.
> I'm at work. In which case the above would apply.
> 
> How do you plan to do that without getting smacked by their weapon?


Like any good bomber, low and under the radar.  Definitely covering my skull.


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## Dirty Dog

Oily Dragon said:


> Like any good bomber, low and under the radar.  Definitely covering my skull.


Because it would never occur to them to plant a knee in your conveniently lowered face. Or pound your kidneys and spine into pate'.


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## Alan0354

Guys, please get back to my cane practice that I posted in* post #21*.


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## Dirty Dog

Alan0354 said:


> Guys, please get back to my cane practice that I posted in* post #21*.


We are. You do know there's two sides, right? I mean, it's silly to think you're going to find someone who will stand still.
In this case, you're the one rearranging Oily Dragons dental work and making him pee blood.


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## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> BTW, what is a good length of the cane? The one I use lately is 31" 20oz. The shorter one is 29" and 18oz.


I don't think this size difference is enough to cause any noticeable difference.  The shape of the cane will probably affect your use more than the length.  It probably has a larger effect on someone who needs a cane for walking than someone who doesn't needed it and oly carries it as a self defense tool.

The shape of the cane will have a much bigger effect..


Alan0354 said:


> I read quickly about being rushed. I hope with a heavier cane, even though I cannot land in optimal way, but just the weigh of the cane can do enough damage.


This comment reminds me of the assumption that you made with Iron Palm.  An heavier can or cane in general will only do enough damage if you are attacking the correct areas of the bod and using the right technique.  Always have an answer for this question:

*What if I miss, then what? What happens next?  *What if you swing at their head and miss and they  person closes the gap really quick.  What are you going to do then?  What is your plan?  If you aren't factoring what to do when your attacks don't work as you plan then you are setting yourself up for a big loss.  

So far your assumptions seem to rely heavy on that "one good hit"  Train what you are going to use, but have a back up plan in mind.


Alan0354 said:


> I have enough injuries already, I don't think I want to go to a grappling school to learn for my own well being.


Here's something to get you started I guess..  It's a defense against someone who is trying to grab your cane.   You just have to practice the movement that my son is doing.  Step for step, don't alter it or try to fix it.  Even the legs close together is important for training this movement.   I'm not sure how much your wrist strap will create in correct hand placement on the cane.  This should work even for cane with a curved handle.   I removed the sound out of the video.


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## Oily Dragon

Dirty Dog said:


> Because it would never occur to them to plant a knee in your conveniently lowered face. Or pound your kidneys and spine into pate'.


They're too busy swinging a stick around to think about any of that.

Even if they did, my spine and kidneys are behind me and I'd welcome the knee.

A bridge is a bridge.


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## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think this size difference is enough to cause any noticeable difference.  The shape of the cane will probably affect your use more than the length.  It probably has a larger effect on someone who needs a cane for walking than someone who doesn't needed it and oly carries it as a self defense tool.
> 
> The shape of the cane will have a much bigger effect..
> 
> This comment reminds me of the assumption that you made with Iron Palm.  An heavier can or cane in general will only do enough damage if you are attacking the correct areas of the bod and using the right technique.  Always have an answer for this question:
> 
> *What if I miss, then what? What happens next?  *What if you swing at their head and miss and they  person closes the gap really quick.  What are you going to do then?  What is your plan?  If you aren't factoring what to do when your attacks don't work as you plan then you are setting yourself up for a big loss.
> 
> So far your assumptions seem to rely heavy on that "one good hit"  Train what you are going to use, but have a back up plan in mind.
> 
> Here's something to get you started I guess..  It's a defense against someone who is trying to grab your cane.   You just have to practice the movement that my son is doing.  Step for step, don't alter it or try to fix it.  Even the legs close together is important for training this movement.   I'm not sure how much your wrist strap will create in correct hand placement on the cane.  This should work even for cane with a curved handle.   I removed the sound out of the video.


Thanks for the reply.

I did play with how your son push with the stick. Yes, this can push the attacker back. But does that give the opponent a good chance to grab the stick as you are pushing with the stick horizontally. Also, the movement is slow which make it a lot easier for opponent to grab.

What's wrong with poking with the tip of the cane to the lower body? Would it be a lot harder for the opponent to grab if you poke at the lower body?

I understand you don't use swing strike all the time as this can be blocked and all that. But poking seems to avoid all the short coming of the swing and it's harder to grab.

I'll let all the expert to join in with their opinions. I was told here that poking ( thrusting) is very important, in fact I am practicing a lot on thrusting now a days.

As for the length of the cane, a shorter cane can be used more efficiently in confined space, that's the reason I ask. I would consider buying a longer cane if it is important.

As for striking with a heavy cane. I know it's not the answer for everything. BUT if all else equal, if I practice swinging hard, using a heavier cane, even if I don't land at optimal situation when the opponent rush me, at least it will hit harder. Just look at the heavy weight fighters, they are slower, their form is usually bad. How many times you see them knock out the opponent with punch that look so bad and should not have KO power, but you see the opponent just drop? I just saw a UFC fight last week that the guy was backing up while the opponent attack and he threw a jab in really bad form with no obvious shoulder and waist. He DROPPED the opponent with that jab!!! ONE JAB!!! That ended the fight. I am not sure I can totally agree with what you said on this.

I practice on my own, I cannot practice defense blocking. I can only practice footwork to get away. It seems practicing hitting hard with a heavy cane is THE BEST option instead of all the fancy moves. That together with thrusting also. I know in the perfect world, I should practice grappling, be stronger and faster.............BUT my body is all I have, at almost 69 and with a lot of pain already..................

thanks


----------



## Alan0354

Alan0354 said:


> I really have to stop and read every comment later, I just don't have the time at this moment. I definitely will read them.
> 
> At the mean time, I read the first two or three replies and I watch the video and I totally agree. I did not use my shoulder at all, also I let the cane hang out too far from my body. So in the last few days, I really try to correct that first. Here is a quick video, please ignore the original video and comment on this one as a starting point. When I watch the original videos, it's embarrassing, so I want to make this new one quickly. To me, at least it looks a lot better.
> 
> I still need time to practice, I only practice a few days on this. But I think it is a start:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I cheated also, I use my old shorter cane that was in the video in July, it's 2" shorter and about 2oz lighter. I figure after I put in the time practicing, I will get back to the heavier cane. YES, seems like I can swing faster using the shoulder, waist and feet. Just like punching.
> 
> BTW, what is a good length of the cane? The one I use lately is 31" 20oz. The shorter one is 29" and 18oz. Seems like for self defense where it usually in more confined and crowed space, a shorter cane is actually better. I am not using the cane for walking, so shorter doesn't matter.
> 
> I read quickly about being rushed. I hope with a heavier cane, even though I cannot land in optimal way, but just the weigh of the cane can do enough damage. I don't know grappling and I won't have a partner to work with, so that's not something I can practice. I have enough injuries already, I don't think I want to go to a grappling school to learn for my own well being.
> 
> Thanks


I forgot to specify, This video is NOT just for self defense. I know there are a lot more like thrusting, kicking and all that for self defense. I make this video because I felt I did badly in the videos in post #1. I did not use my shoulders, waist and legs to swing and I did not pull the cane back close to my body and let it hanged out there.

This *video in post #21 is mainly on casting and striking that I am working on*. I think it at least looks a lot better than the two videos in post #1. I just want people to comment on #21 on casting. What do I have to improve from that on. forget the two videos in the first post.

thanks


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## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> It's just the reality of the weakness.  That would come with a stick or cane.  If Alan's going to rely on that cane for self-defense then he should at least know where it's weak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cccccc


For this kind of full contact fights, I think I can agree with you that the rope around the wrist is not a good idea as I'll end up using elbows and all that.

Still, in a way, using a heavier cane and learn to strike hard should help to at least get a good wack first!!!


----------



## dvcochran

Alan0354 said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I did play with how your son push with the stick. Yes, this can push the attacker back. But does that give the opponent a good chance to grab the stick as you are pushing with the stick horizontally. Also, the movement is slow which make it a lot easier for opponent to grab.
> 
> What's wrong with poking with the tip of the cane to the lower body? Would it be a lot harder for the opponent to grab if you poke at the lower body?
> 
> I understand you don't use swing strike all the time as this can be blocked and all that. But poking seems to avoid all the short coming of the swing and it's harder to grab.
> 
> I'll let all the expert to join in with their opinions. I was told here that poking ( thrusting) is very important, in fact I am practicing a lot on thrusting now a days.
> 
> As for the length of the cane, a shorter cane can be used more efficiently in confined space, that's the reason I ask. I would consider buying a longer cane if it is important.
> 
> As for striking with a heavy cane. I know it's not the answer for everything. BUT if all else equal, if I practice swinging hard, using a heavier cane, even if I don't land at optimal situation when the opponent rush me, at least it will hit harder. Just look at the heavy weight fighters, they are slower, their form is usually bad. How many times you see them knock out the opponent with punch that look so bad and should not have KO power, but you see the opponent just drop? I just saw a UFC fight last week that the guy was backing up while the opponent attack and he threw a jab in really bad form with no obvious shoulder and waist. He DROPPED the opponent with that jab!!! ONE JAB!!! That ended the fight. I am not sure I can totally agree with what you said on this.
> 
> I practice on my own, I cannot practice defense blocking. I can only practice footwork to get away. It seems practicing hitting hard with a heavy cane is THE BEST option instead of all the fancy moves. That together with thrusting also. I know in the perfect world, I should practice grappling, be stronger and faster.............BUT my body is all I have, at almost 69 and with a lot of pain already..................
> 
> thanks


I am speaking from my Kali perspective so it may be different from what you are used to.

We never used a stick/cane as long as the one in your video, so methodology is a good bit different. A 'poke', unless overhanded, was something we never did unless we were engaged. Then it was always to a vital area (neck, eyes, gut, etc...). I suspect this is outside the range you are practicing from.

Since a cane would have a blunt end, I do not see how it can be expected to inflict damage. Add this to the fact that it is a small area, completing an accurate strike to an effective area would be difficult at best. When I think of how one would hold a cane for walking, and then trying to convert this to a poking strike, it just does not seem to have a ton of merit. When you contrast this motion to a fencer's thrust, it is a very different motion. Hopefully some of the fencer's on the forum will jump in and correct me if I am wrong.

As far as a heavier cane, in practice and application it would be a bad idea to me. Momentum, which is impacted by weight, can be hell on the body's joints. Repeatedly swinging a weighted cane would damage the wrists. Furthermore, just like in your boxer's analogy, a weighted cane would be slower, again affecting momentum and ultimately, effective power/force. Plus, this would make it easier to block or outright grab for a takeaway.
Sure, you could land a knockout, but how many times have you seen that happen on the first, second, or even third punch in a boxer's match?
Definitely, a person can improve their grip and forearm strength to accommodate a heavier cane but I would not do this by repeatedly swinging a heavy cane at full speed.

Maybe I am wrong, but I do not see a cane as a high percentage tool as a one or two strike, encounter ending weapon. In Kali it is an accumulation of strikes that usually end up as an opportunity for an ending blow, most often Not with the stick.
Is a cane great as a 'legal' carry weapon sound? Absolutely.
Is it logical to practice self-defense using a cane? Sure.
Just know the limitations and true practicality of using one. If you are looking at your own self-defense scenarios as something you cannot not or will not walk/run away from, then I encourage you to modify your ending. This includes additional carry weapons or better empty-handed training.


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## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> I did play with how your son push with the stick. Yes, this can push the attacker back. But does that give the opponent a good chance to grab the stick as you are pushing with the stick horizontally.


The technique is a bait.  You intentionally stand in the neutral position to give you a less aggressive stance.  It's a technique for countering an attack.  The neutral stance also leads your enemy's attack.  Usually when people hold a stick down like that, the attacker will think to grab the stick.  As they grab for it, you then smash the cane into the person's face. 

In the video, you can see what that looks like as an application I try to grab the staff away from my son.  Because the staff is low, it forces the person to grab at a downward angle.  That downward grab is a longer grab so the enemy will miscalculate and come up short.,   As I grab for the staff it exposes my safe.  In the video, I make an honest effort to grab the staff.  It seems like the staff strike won't reach, but my son was being very careful not to smash me in my face.

Most people see this technique as a push, but if you try to use it as a push then it doesn't work well.  However, it does work really well as countering strike to someone trying to take control of your staff, or in your case, a cane.  This technique has a high percentage success rate it also has a follow up in the event that you miss or that your enemy is fast enough to get out of the way.  I just didn't add those parts because this technique is simple but people tend to try "to fix it" or try to use it in a less effective manner.



Alan0354 said:


> Also, the movement is slow which make it a lot easier for opponent to grab.


It's not slow. It's very fast. It's done with explosive power.  Have your wife try this technique on you and let me know if you still think it's slow?  Some things have to be a slower speeds to prevent serious injury, like getting smashed in the face with a staff or in your case a cane.


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## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Since a cane would have a blunt end, I do not see how it can be expected to inflict damage.


it will cause damage as long as you use 2 hands to drive the thrust..  Sort of like taking the end of a bat and jabbing it into the mouth of your attacker. Using 2 hand is going to give more power than trying to thrust with one hand..  



dvcochran said:


> Maybe I am wrong, but I do not see a cane as a high percentage tool as a one or two strike, encounter ending weapon.


I agree.  I definitely wouldn't be counting on one shot to end the fight.


dvcochran said:


> Just know the limitations and true practicality of using one.


For me personally I wouldn't use a weapon unless I had a really good understanding of this one.  Sometimes we start with the idea that something is really good and then discover later that there's a lot more to it than just hitting someone with a stick..  Unfortunately the idea that one good strike will end things is very common in Chinese martial arts circles.


----------



## Alan0354

dvcochran said:


> I am speaking from my Kali perspective so it may be different from what you are used to.
> 
> We never used a stick/cane as long as the one in your video, so methodology is a good bit different. A 'poke', unless overhanded, was something we never did unless we were engaged. Then it was always to a vital area (neck, eyes, gut, etc...). I suspect this is outside the range you are practicing from.
> 
> Since a cane would have a blunt end, I do not see how it can be expected to inflict damage. Add this to the fact that it is a small area, completing an accurate strike to an effective area would be difficult at best. When I think of how one would hold a cane for walking, and then trying to convert this to a poking strike, it just does not seem to have a ton of merit. When you contrast this motion to a fencer's thrust, it is a very different motion. Hopefully some of the fencer's on the forum will jump in and correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> As far as a heavier cane, in practice and application it would be a bad idea to me. Momentum, which is impacted by weight, can be hell on the body's joints. Repeatedly swinging a weighted cane would damage the wrists. Furthermore, just like in your boxer's analogy, a weighted cane would be slower, again affecting momentum and ultimately, effective power/force. Plus, this would make it easier to block or outright grab for a takeaway.
> Sure, you could land a knockout, but how many times have you seen that happen on the first, second, or even third punch in a boxer's match?
> Definitely, a person can improve their grip and forearm strength to accommodate a heavier cane but I would not do this by repeatedly swinging a heavy cane at full speed.
> 
> Maybe I am wrong, but I do not see a cane as a high percentage tool as a one or two strike, encounter ending weapon. In Kali it is an accumulation of strikes that usually end up as an opportunity for an ending blow, most often Not with the stick.
> Is a cane great as a 'legal' carry weapon sound? Absolutely.
> Is it logical to practice self-defense using a cane? Sure.
> Just know the limitations and true practicality of using one. If you are looking at your own self-defense scenarios as something you cannot not or will not walk/run away from, then I encourage you to modify your ending. This includes additional carry weapons or better empty-handed training.


*The following is my opinion*.   I might be making wrong assumptions here, you guys know better. Let me know if you disagree.

I actually started out using a lighter rattan cane and practice one hand swing at the beginning. I made this video in May this year ( about 2 months after I started practicing):





I used a cane that was about 11oz at the time. BUT then I watched a few matches on youtube of people fighting in escrima style, they literally hitting each other stupid from beginning to the end. They just hit each other stupid, and they kept hitting the whole way to the end. Yes, they did wear some protection, but the fact they still standing at the end with no slowing down really made me rethink about one hand using a light stick. 

Yes, it's faster, but if there is NO stopping power, what good does that do? I know in real fight like what GowGaWolf showed, you really only have the first few seconds to strike effectively before the enemy comes too close. In my mind, I have to make it count for the first 5 seconds. I since switch to two hands strike and using a cane almost double the weight. I can tell you that I practice hitting the heavy bag. This is like punching and kicking, no amount of striking in the air will get you the power, you gain speed by striking the air, NOT POWER. I can assure you the two hands strike with the heavy cane hit so so much harder than one handed using a rattan cane. My rattan cane is over 1" thick with burned skin. It's a lot harder and heavier than those in escrima fight. I have those escrima sticks. The 3/4" 28"long weight just 6oz. Even the much bigger ones are only 8oz. You see those people swing so pretty because there's no weight behind it. Hitting the heavy bag with those sounds like tapping rather than really hitting. You should know that.   When I hit the bag with the heavy cane using both hands, you can hear the echo,* so much louder*. You know you have a good hit......Just like punching. You can hear the sound and know how hard you hit.

As for speed, unless using a 6oz stick, it is definitely faster. But using a 11oz rattan cane with one hand, it is *NOT *any faster than using a 20oz cane swing with both hands. Using two hands is the KEY difference. On top of everything, you never can get good control with one hand swing. I tried that already, it's very hard to do casting with one hand. I imagine in real fight, *you won't have the open space like in a match*. You have things in the way. I watched and learn escrima/kali style, they pretty much swing from one side of the shoulder, through an arc and stop at the other shoulder. For competition with big open space, it's not a problem. You gather speed and swing through it. BUT in self defense like in the restaurant where *there are chairs, tables and people around,* you can never make a wide swing that easy. You hit other things on the way. Casting seems to be the best way for self defense as I don't throw an arc, also I stop the cane if I miss instead of carrying the swing all the way to the other shoulder. I have so much more control using two hands and the swing is so much more compact.

If you look at the second video in the first post, I practice in the entry way of my house where the space is confined. I pretended the door post as different target and swing to attack. There's no way I can do that with one hand and a light cane.

This is my opinion, I ended up choosing a heavy cane, swing with two hands and practice casting that is much more suitable for real life situation with confined space. Assuming I only have 5 seconds to strike before the enemy getting too close. I don't count on knocking the guy out in the first strike, but I do count on a much higher chance to injure the guy and cause a lot of pain to slow him down first.

Thanks


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> it will cause damage as long as you use 2 hands to drive the thrust..  Sort of like taking the end of a bat and jabbing it into the mouth of your attacker. Using 2 hand is going to give more power than trying to thrust with one hand..
> 
> 
> I agree.  I definitely wouldn't be counting on one shot to end the fight.
> 
> For me personally I wouldn't use a weapon unless I had a really good understanding of this one.  Sometimes we start with the idea that something is really good and then discover later that there's a lot more to it than just hitting someone with a stick..  Unfortunately the idea that one good strike will end things is very common in Chinese martial arts circles.


I never expect to KO anyone in one blow, just the heavier the cane swing with both hands can hit harder. My aim is to inflict injury and pain to slow the guy down first. I still believe in hitting heavy, be it punching and kicking or cane. That's why I spend time on the heavy bag.

I am trying to learn the cane fight, I make assumptions, but I post it here and let everyone comment. Like what you show on the stick fight makes sense, the rope on the wrist might not be the best idea. Also when you explain the two hand holding the stick horizontally make sense. So you just hold with two hands, keep it low, bate the guy to reach low to grab the stick and you push the stick horizontally to his face.

Thanks


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## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> *The following is my opinion*.   I might be making wrong assumptions here, you guys know better. Let me know if you disagree.
> 
> I actually started out using a lighter rattan cane and practice one hand swing at the beginning. I made this video in May this year ( about 2 months after I started practicing):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used a cane that was about 11oz at the time. BUT then I watched a few matches on youtube of people fighting in escrima style, they literally hitting each other stupid from beginning to the end. They just hit each other stupid, and they kept hitting the whole way to the end. Yes, they did wear some protection, but the fact they still standing at the end with no slowing down really made me rethink about one hand using a light stick.
> 
> Yes, it's faster, but if there is NO stopping power, what good does that do? I know in real fight like what GowGaWolf showed, you really only have the first few seconds to strike effectively before the enemy comes too close. In my mind, I have to make it count for the first 5 seconds. I since switch to two hands strike and using a cane almost double the weight. I can tell you that I practice hitting the heavy bag. This is like punching and kicking, no amount of striking in the air will get you the power, you gain speed by striking the air, NOT POWER. I can assure you the two hands strike with the heavy cane hit so so much harder than one handed using a rattan cane. My rattan cane is over 1" thick with burned skin. It's a lot harder and heavier than those in escrima fight. I have those escrima sticks. The 3/4" 28"long weight just 6oz. Even the much bigger ones are only 8oz. You see those people swing so pretty because there's no weight behind it. Hitting the heavy bag with those sounds like tapping rather than really hitting. You should know that.   When I hit the bag with the heavy cane using both hands, you can hear the echo,* so much louder*. You know you have a good hit......Just like punching. You can hear the sound and know how hard you hit.
> 
> As for speed, unless using a 6oz stick, it is definitely faster. But using a 11oz rattan cane with one hand, it is *NOT *any faster than using a 20oz cane swing with both hands. Using two hands is the KEY difference. On top of everything, you never can get good control with one hand swing. I tried that already, it's very hard to do casting with one hand. I imagine in real fight, *you won't have the open space like in a match*. You have things in the way. I watched and learn escrima/kali style, they pretty much swing from one side of the shoulder, through an arc and stop at the other shoulder. For competition with big open space, it's not a problem. You gather speed and swing through it. BUT in self defense like in the restaurant where *there are chairs, tables and people around,* you can never make a wide swing that easy. You hit other things on the way. Casting seems to be the best way for self defense as I don't throw an arc, also I stop the cane if I miss instead of carrying the swing all the way to the other shoulder. I have so much more control using two hands and the swing is so much more compact.
> 
> If you look at the second video in the first post, I practice in the entry way of my house where the space is confined. I pretended the door post as different target and swing to attack. There's no way I can do that with one hand and a light cane.
> 
> This is my opinion, I ended up choosing a heavy cane, swing with two hands and practice casting that is much more suitable for real life situation with confined space. Assuming I only have 5 seconds to strike before the enemy getting too close. I don't count on knocking the guy out in the first strike, but I do count on a much higher chance to injure the guy and cause a lot of pain to slow him down first.
> 
> Thanks


That's a good analysis of your training and trying to figure it out.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> I never expect to KO anyone in one blow, just the heavier the cane swing with both hands can hit harder. My aim is to inflict injury and pain to slow the guy down first. I still believe in hitting heavy, be it punching and kicking or cane. That's why I spend time on the heavy bag.
> 
> I am trying to learn the cane fight, I make assumptions, but I post it here and let everyone comment. Like what you show on the stick fight makes sense, the rope on the wrist might not be the best idea. Also when you explain the two hand holding the stick horizontally make sense. So you just hold with two hands, keep it low, bate the guy to reach low to grab the stick and you push the stick horizontally to his face.
> 
> Thanks


I might have access to cane here.  It's not a self defense cane or anything like that, but I should be able to use the straight end to test some things out. with close range fighting techniques used in staff.


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> I might have access to cane here.  It's not a self defense cane or anything like that, but I should be able to use the straight end to test some things out. with close range fighting techniques used in staff.


Please, I am all ears. I don't have experience, everything is theoretical here. That's why I keep posting and get opinion. I learn things from you I never think of. Like the horizontal cane, it makes no sense until you explained in detail to bait the opponent. 

I really have to rethink about the rope around the wrist after watching the videos you provided. Maybe it's a good thing not to have the rope. I have been practicing missing the target to get use to it and not to lose the cane. Without the rope, I can put back my foam handle which is so much better for my hands. I make it so the rope can slide up and down the cane. For that, I cannot put the foam handle. Look at my hand from the practice. The two callus are very painful. I had to put the foam on the handle to make the last video, or else, I cannot even swing the cane lately. Look at how bad my hand is.


----------



## Oily Dragon

dvcochran said:


> Maybe I am wrong, but I do not see a cane as a high percentage tool as a one or two strike, encounter ending weapon. In Kali it is an accumulation of strikes that usually end up as an opportunity for an ending blow, most often Not with the stick.
> Is a cane great as a 'legal' carry weapon sound? Absolutely.
> Is it logical to practice self-defense using a cane? Sure.
> Just know the limitations and true practicality of using one. If you are looking at your own self-defense scenarios as something you cannot not or will not walk/run away from, then I encourage you to modify your ending. This includes additional carry weapons or better empty-handed training.



This is why a longer stick is better for "Self-defense".  Jo, bo, gun, whatever you call it.  

If we're talking about _defending _ourselves, the stick forms a defensive sphere around you, and the bigger the sphere, the more distance you can maintain.  A couple of feet versus five or more makes  a big difference.


----------



## Alan0354

Oily Dragon said:


> This is why a longer stick is better for "Self-defense".  Jo, bo, gun, whatever you call it.
> 
> If we're talking about _defending _ourselves, the stick forms a defensive sphere around you, and the bigger the sphere, the more distance you can maintain.  A couple of feet versus five or more makes  a big difference.
> 
> View attachment 27841


I am not that certain about longer the better for self defense. I keep thinking in real life situation, like I said many times before, you are in a more confined space. Like it restaurants when you have tables and chairs and people all around. You don't have the space to swing a long stick. In another word, you do not have a 5 ft circle radius to work with. I asked the question whether my cane is too long because I don't think there is room for a long cane.

Even on the street, unless you are in the middle of the street with no car, you really don't have that much open space. Think of the walkway is only about 7 to 8ft wide, you have people, parking meters and other objects on the street, you don't have a big circle.

A few inches can make a big difference. If I have a choice, I much rather to have a 26" cane(too short for walking) and heavier. I think that's the reason people like those collapsible baton. Heavy, reasonable length for close quarter fighting.

But that's just my theory.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> A few inches can make a big difference. If I have a choice, I much rather to have a 26" cane(too short for walking) and heavier. I think that's the reason people like those collapsible baton. Heavy, reasonable length for close quarter fighting.


From what I can tell anything below 5" or 6" (depending on context / techniques used)  really won't make any difference in the range. It just means you don't have to hold the cain at the very end.  Hand placement is always going to be about the same distance  You'll either hold it towards the end for longer range or towards the middle.   After 6" you start to get some extra space on the cane to use.  In my opinion should be long enough to get some additional space where you hold the cane.  There should be enough room on the straight end to hook wrists and elbows.

That little piece of the cane that is hooking around the arm is the extra space that you want.  If you have to put your hands very close together to get that same amount then the cane is too short.  The hand placement on the cane is about the distance you want to have in relation to the cane.  This will give you to ability to use leverage, which is going to be vital in close range fighting with a cane.





For me personally I rather have a cane that is the correct size for walking because at that point, the cane is longer than my longest weapon (my leg for kicking).  The swing radius of a cane depends of the position of the hand.  Holding the cane towards the middle shortens the range greatly.   The range can be shorten or increased as needed so long as you can move your hand freely along the cane.


For example: the cane above is short range.  He could easily swing in a restaurant space or sidewalk  The swing range is a shorter distance than the elbow of the outstretch arm,  But look at the picture blow.  He has a nice range with room to spare.  His arm isn't even extend so he's got plenty of long range available if needed. 




When fighting with a 6 foot staff the hand placement on a staff will determine the swing radius.   This is also true for a cane.

The other thing you have to consider is the type of swing you are doing.  You will run out of horizontal swing space before you run out of horizontal swing space.  If I was in the same place as the guy in the middle, I could still do a vertical strike with a 6ft staff and not hit anyone else except the person I'm trying to hit.   By you being short, you get an extra bonus in availability of vertical swing space.  But in all reality.  I'll probably gain some horizontal space after that initial swing.  Most people are going to get up and get away from the guy with the swinging stick.  Not many people want to become involved in such situations like that.  You may have a couple of people who will try to tackle you, but most people don't want to be a part of the conflict that you have with the guy you are hitting.




I'm 5'9" My sword in sheath is 39.5" which is a good size as it comes up a little above my hip.  I would want a cane this size because I can place weight on it if needed.   "36" is too small for walking and it feels too small when I use for a 2 hand swing of a cane that size.  It's great for a two hand sword swing that requires both hands to be at the end, but it's horrible for swing where I need my hands to be far apart.  Even a two hand thrust feels very short.  But my sword in sheath feels just right for that vertical down strike followed by a thrust. using 2 hands.

It's going to ultimately boil down to which options you want to have available one hand options vs two hand options.  I can swing a 39." cane like a one hand weapon,  But I don't think I can use the "36" like a two hand weapon.  This size only applies to me and my height.  The size will be different for you.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Oily Dragon said:


> This is why a longer stick is better for "Self-defense".  Jo, bo, gun, whatever you call it.
> 
> If we're talking about _defending _ourselves, the stick forms a defensive sphere around you, and the bigger the sphere, the more distance you can maintain.  A couple of feet versus five or more makes  a big difference.
> 
> View attachment 27841


I rather have something that is long enough.  I can always "choke up" on a stick to decrease the fighting range,  But there's not much one can do about increasing maximum fighting range for a stick. 


For the most part, and within limits.  Long range sticks




can also be used as short range sticks






But if you only make a bat that's small enough to bunt, then you'll never hit a home run.  


Retractable Baton Vs Cane:  I would do this with a cane but wouldn't do this with a baton.  Heck No.  Clearly this guy doesn't understand the principle of the technique lol  I could let my staff just fall on that and it will be over.  I don't even have to swing lol.  Point is, when the weapons is too short your begin to run out of certain techniques that would otherwise be effective.




I wasn't going to put the link but after watching it.  But this stuff is horrible.





And it just keeps on giving lol.





If I have someone punches at me with a baton,  I'm just going to smack that arm with that steel and then let him decide how many more punches he wants to throw lol.  I don't know any martial that actually fights with a stick , that teaches to open the hand.   Get that angle wrong that stick will slide right down and that bat will bust the skull .. Big risk.    But point is.   I can make the can striking length shorter but I can't make that baton striking length longer.


----------



## Oily Dragon

Alan0354 said:


> I am not that certain about longer the better for self defense. I keep thinking in real life situation, like I said many times before, you are in a more confined space. Like it restaurants when you have tables and chairs and people all around. You don't have the space to swing a long stick. In another word, you do not have a 5 ft circle radius to work with. I asked the question whether my cane is too long because I don't think there is room for a long cane.
> 
> Even on the street, unless you are in the middle of the street with no car, you really don't have that much open space. Think of the walkway is only about 7 to 8ft wide, you have people, parking meters and other objects on the street, you don't have a big circle.
> 
> A few inches can make a big difference. If I have a choice, I much rather to have a 26" cane(too short for walking) and heavier. I think that's the reason people like those collapsible baton. Heavy, reasonable length for close quarter fighting.
> 
> But that's just my theory.


Five feet is my jo almost to the millimeter.

I can now twirl it at about three revolutions per second like a shield, much like Thor twirls Mjolnir, but with a longer radius.  I practiced this technique for at least ten minutes every day for ten years, to get that fast.  I'm working on four revolutions but it's not easy.  I'm also real, and he's not.  Positive thinking.

All the staff forms I know are specifically designed for close quarters combat, so they're pretty compact.  Perfect for alley combat, the old Cantonese way.   So even more perfect for the open road.


----------



## Oily Dragon

JowGaWolf said:


> From what I can tell anything below 5" or 6" (depending on context / techniques used)  really won't make any difference in the range.


I think you meant 5' or 6'.

Otherwise we're into ninja tanto territory.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Not a cane, Not even a good video for using a baton


Oily Dragon said:


> All the staff forms I know are specifically designed for close quarters combat, so they're pretty compact.


Most people who hear staff training think of long distance striking and fighting.  It wasn't until I started to seriously train to learn the staff that I discovered that there are a lot of close range stuff in there.  There's a couple of techniques where I thought.  Man this is slow. I'll get punched before I hit someone like this.  Then it occurred to me that maybe the movement does something else.  I did a gentle test on my son and asked him what did he feel.  Then I had him do a similar test to see if I felt the same thing.  It worked better against grappling which is probably why it's slow and powerful vs fast and powerful.  But it was always taught as a strike.  Can I hit someone in the head with it.  Of course, but it's like a slow power punch and not a fast powerful jab.  I now enjoy the staff more, now that I understand the close range fighting techniques.

I came to this conclusion as well when I used my sword (in sheath) today using some of the staff technique.  A cane of the same height would should be able to perform the same way.  A Jo would be taller and a really good fit for similar moves.  As we can see it can be done with a cane but if it's too short then there won't be much wood on the striking end.  The movement of the hand allows him to change the length of the stick that is being used to strike.  His left hand moves to the opposite end of the can and so does his right hand.  A rubber tip isn't going to soften those thrusts much.  Catch one of those thrust in the mouth and I'm pretty sure the other guy will want to cut his loses short unless he has a gun lol.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Oily Dragon said:


> I think you meant 5' or 6'.
> 
> Otherwise we're into ninja tanto territory.


Sorry I didn't make that clear.  I didn't explain my thoughts well.  I was referring to the size difference between two canes.  For example, a cane that is 2" or 3" smaller or larger than another cane isn't going to have a big length advantage or disadvantage.  The advantages and disadvantages really don't start to appear until around 5" or 6" inch difference in cane length.  It's almost like boxing.  Someone with a 2"or 3" longer jab isn't going to affect you that much.  You can still work with it and deal with it.  It's not until that jab length reaches 5" to 6" that the jab is going to have any real length advantage.

A can that is 39" and 36" shouldn't bee a problem.  But a cane that is 30" and 36" is going to have a noticeable difference in everything from driving power to having enough of the cane to hit someone with.


----------



## Oily Dragon

JowGaWolf said:


> Not a cane, Not even a good video for using a baton
> 
> Most people who hear staff training think of long distance striking and fighting.  It wasn't until I started to seriously train to learn the staff that I discovered that there are a lot of close range stuff in there.  There's a couple of techniques where I thought.  Man this is slow. I'll get punched before I hit someone like this.  Then it occurred to me that maybe the movement does something else.  I did a gentle test on my son and asked him what did he feel.  Then I had him do a similar test to see if I felt the same thing.  It worked better against grappling which is probably why it's slow and powerful vs fast and powerful.  But it was always taught as a strike.  Can I hit someone in the head with it.  Of course, but it's like a slow power punch and not a fast powerful jab.  I now enjoy the staff more, now that I understand the close range fighting techniques.


A way to spot good staff training is to watch the hands move effortlessly around the stick.  A longer staff gives you a lot more room to extend and contract.  Jow Ga's staff form shares a lot of common ancestry with the other Eight Trigram long staff forms, and it's not too difficult to translate it to shorter sticks.  It's all in the hands.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Oily Dragon said:


> A way to spot good staff training is to watch the hands move effortlessly around the stick.  A longer staff gives you a lot more room to extend and contract.  Jow Ga's staff form shares a lot of common ancestry with the other Eight Trigram long staff forms, and it's not too difficult to translate it to shorter sticks.  It's all in the hands.


I seen so many cane videos in the last 2 days  I'm done lol.  It will be interesting where Alan ends up with his training with the additional training.  Unfortunately I couldn't fine many people sparring with canes except for the Irish stick fighting.


----------



## Oily Dragon

JowGaWolf said:


> I seen so many cane videos in the last 2 days I'm done lol. It will be interesting where Alan ends up with his training with the additional training. Unfortunately I couldn't fine many people sparring with canes except for the Irish stick fighting.


There are no short stick sets in Chinese that I know of.  As in cane short.

The Irish will fight with anything on hand.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Oily Dragon said:


> There are no short stick sets in Chinese that I know of.  As in cane short.
> 
> The Irish will fight with anything on hand.


Tai chi has cane forms.  But I don't feel comfortable with recommending anything to Alan that I couldn't use or at the minimum teach someone else to use.. The rest of the videos that I saw are questionable.  Most have never tried to swing a cane at someone or have someone actually swing one at them.  A lot of crap evaporates once canes start swinging lol.


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## Oily Dragon

JowGaWolf said:


> Tai chi has cane forms.



Can you name them?


----------



## tim po

JowGaWolf said:


> I rather have something that is long enough.  I can always "choke up" on a stick to decrease the fighting range,  But there's not much one can do about increasing maximum fighting range for a stick.
> 
> 
> For the most part, and within limits.  Long range sticks
> View attachment 27845
> 
> can also be used as short range sticks
> 
> View attachment 27846
> 
> 
> But if you only make a bat that's small enough to bunt, then you'll never hit a home run.
> 
> 
> Retractable Baton Vs Cane:  I would do this with a cane but wouldn't do this with a baton.  Heck No.  Clearly this guy doesn't understand the principle of the technique lol  I could let my staff just fall on that and it will be over.  I don't even have to swing lol.  Point is, when the weapons is too short your begin to run out of certain techniques that would otherwise be effective.
> View attachment 27847
> 
> I wasn't going to put the link but after watching it.  But this stuff is horrible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it just keeps on giving lol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I have someone punches at me with a baton,  I'm just going to smack that arm with that steel and then let him decide how many more punches he wants to throw lol.  I don't know any martial that actually fights with a stick , that teaches to open the hand.   Get that angle wrong that stick will slide right down and that bat will bust the skull .. Big risk.    But point is.   I can make the can striking length shorter but I can't make that baton striking length longer.


wow....just, wow.


----------



## Oily Dragon

Oily Dragon said:


> Can you name them?


Answering my own question here, I'm pretty sure "cane" forms in Tai Chi Chuan are actually jian forms. 

Makes sense to me.  Tai Chi's history included anywhere between 18 and 36 different weapons, but modern practice is usually limited to the mother four: dao, jian, spear, and staff, and jian is the most translatable to a walking cane.


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## JowGaWolf

Oily Dragon said:


> Answering my own question here, I'm pretty sure "cane" forms in Tai Chi Chuan are actually jian forms.
> 
> Makes sense to me.  Tai Chi's history included anywhere between 18 and 36 different weapons, but modern practice is usually limited to the mother four: dao, jian, spear, and staff, and jian is the most translatable to a walking cane.


The look like Jian forms with the exception of where they grab the blade and use it to strike like using a cane.  A lot of one hand cane strikes


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## TaiChiTJ

go spar with this dude !!!


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think this size difference is enough to cause any noticeable difference.  The shape of the cane will probably affect your use more than the length.  It probably has a larger effect on someone who needs a cane for walking than someone who doesn't needed it and oly carries it as a self defense tool.
> 
> The shape of the cane will have a much bigger effect..
> 
> This comment reminds me of the assumption that you made with Iron Palm.  An heavier can or cane in general will only do enough damage if you are attacking the correct areas of the bod and using the right technique.  Always have an answer for this question:
> 
> *What if I miss, then what? What happens next?  *What if you swing at their head and miss and they  person closes the gap really quick.  What are you going to do then?  What is your plan?  If you aren't factoring what to do when your attacks don't work as you plan then you are setting yourself up for a big loss.
> 
> So far your assumptions seem to rely heavy on that "one good hit"  Train what you are going to use, but have a back up plan in mind.
> 
> Here's something to get you started I guess..  It's a defense against someone who is trying to grab your cane.   You just have to practice the movement that my son is doing.  Step for step, don't alter it or try to fix it.  Even the legs close together is important for training this movement.   I'm not sure how much your wrist strap will create in correct hand placement on the cane.  This should work even for cane with a curved handle.   I removed the sound out of the video.


I am way behind all the posts, I need to read them after the new year as both grand kids are staying with us right now. I just want to come back to this first as I actually spent time on this, thinking about it and practice it.

Last night, my grand daughter played and swing the stick at me, we were withing 3ft(close distance). My first thinking is rush and punch her!!! I don't think of grabbing the cane at all, I just use what is natural for me( been in TKD much longer than stick fight) which is punch. I could land quite a few punches just like that. I don't even care to try to grab the cane!!

I don't think holding the cane like in your video to bait the attacker works. It only can work if the attacker tries to reach for the stick. If not, you really lock into holding the cane with hands down and open your whole upper body to be attacked.

At that close distance, I rather fight bare handed, cane seems to be a liability.

The only thing I can think of useful is holding the cane in the position to poke the attacker at the stomach or solarplex area. It is much harder to grab. Particular if the guy tries to take me down and trip me falling backwards to mount on me, he might just land on the tip of the cane and really injure himself.

Unless you have very good reason for your move, I am not going to practice this anymore.

Thanks

Happy New Year.


----------



## JowGaWolf

TaiChiTJ said:


> go spar with this dude !!!


A lot of his swinging techniques are those that would be used with a staff.  This is what Oily Dragon was talking about in post #49. As for the video his form looks intimidating but it's mixed with some showmanship as well.   There's nothing in this video that provides enough information on if he can actually use what he's doing.  The most that I can say is that he has the body mechanics that would be needed to hit someone with that cane but that's about it.  If he can fight with his bow then he should be able to fight with the cane as well.

I took a look at some of the other videos on that channel and this stuff is too complicated for me.





I do like this.  Tai Chi sword uses a similar concept as well. Chinese staff uses a similar concept as well.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> I don't think holding the cane like in your video to bait the attacker works. It only can work if the attacker tries to reach for the stick. If not, you really lock into holding the cane.


The same movement in that video that I showed also works for people trying to rush in.

As someone tries to rush in like you state then do the exact same movement including that short drop.  Here's what happens, provided that your hands are not at the end of the cane.

*Phase one*. - The person rushes in to grab your body

*Phase two* - As they come in. You should drop your stance and raise the cane like in the video as my son demonstrated. This moves the target area that they were trying to grab out of range and it pops the arms upward. So There's a bunch of things going on in Phase 2, but main. You are moving the target that they are trying to grab by lowering your body and by raising the cane. which lifts the arms. Because of how the cane move s upward, it will strike the bone and yes it does hurt. Felt it first hand.

*Phase three: * Because of what you did in Phase two, your opponent should feel like they are falling on emptiness.  Like trying to lean against a wall that isn't there. They shouldn't be stable at this point.  They also shouldn't be able to pull their arms down because of how the cane strikes their arms. At this point you should be under their arms and their ribs should be exposed. That's when that last strike with your arms extended comes into play.

*What if scenarios:
What if you raise the cane too soon? * Still follow through.  By dropping your stance your stance you have still moved the target out of the way.  Now your cane is above your attackers arms.  Extend you arms forward with explosive power and that cane should hit him right across the face. Which will disrupt the grab attempt giving you time to reposition out of grappling range so you can strike with the cane.

*What if you raise the cane too late?*  There's an answer for that as well.  But to be honest learn the first steps first., the movement my son is doing.  You have to be good at this first thing so you can be good at the things to follow. 



Alan0354 said:


> Last night, my grand daughter played and swing the stick at me, we were withing 3ft(close distance). My first thinking is rush and punch her!!! I don't think of grabbing the cane at all,


You probably didn't think about grabbing the cane because you were thinking about the cane smashing you in the face.  Once you know that something can happen you will be less likely to do it because you know what the possibilities are.    But it doesn't mean your other thoughts were invalid, because you are right not everyone is going to go for the cane., Which is why you always have to think.  Well what if they don't go to grab the cane.  In this case the same movement protects you against 3 possibilities. as explained above.

Again, to be honest, learn the first steps first. Learn the movement my son is doing.  You have to be good at this first thing so you can be good at the things to follow.  Sometimes trying to learn too much at once or learn too fast creates more harm than good to your learning.


Alan0354 said:


> I could land quite a few punches just like that. I don't even care to try to grab the cane!!


Your grand daughter doesn't know how to fight with a cane or a staff.  so I wouldn't go on that feeling too much to define the weaknesses of using the cane, walking stick, or staff.  However,  What you feel may be what an attacker feels. and that felling will help you get a better understanding for the types of attacks you may get.  This will help you improve your training.



Alan0354 said:


> At that close distance, I rather fight bare handed, cane seems to be a liability.


It will be a liability if you don't know how to use that cane to fight close range which is what I've been saying for a while now.  Using a cane for a long distance is an easier concept to understand. Using it in close range, not so much.  That's the weakness of the cane, walking stick, staff that Dirty Dog and I were talking about earlier on.

I wouldn't suggest dropping the cane.  It's better to learn to use it in close range than to just abandon it for the sake of grappling. The reason why is because dropping the cane gives your opponent to option to push you away, pick up your cane and then beat you with your own cane.  Keep in mind that you brought a self-defense cane to a fight, so it' not going to break if your opponent hits you with it.

If you want learn to fight with a cane, then understand that there's long range and close range cane fighting techniques that you'll need to develop.  But most importantly don't rush your training. 

If you have to spend 3 months only training that movement that my son does then that's what you'll have to do.  The reason for the length of time training that one movement is so you can do it without thinking. You'll have to accept the reality that there's no short path to learning how to fight.  The other thing that you need to train is the footwork, because none of this stuff will work without the footwork.  Footwork is the most important thing.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> Unless you have very good reason for your move, I am not going to practice this anymore.


Also stop discounting what people are saying so quickly.  Especially with me.  I never share the entire thing.  It's like learning math.  You don't explain the concepts of Calculus to 6 year old and then expect them to understand why they should learn how to add and subtract.

You start with the basics.  You learn the basics, and you build your foundation from the strength of the basics.  I show you one move and you discount it simply because you don't understand it.  You don't understand it because you don't know the basics. You will not be able to learn anything correctly with this type of perspective.  

If you really want to learn from what I know then you must first change your mindset and willingness to discount things so quickly.  There's a lot of good advice in this forum.  But discounting what I say and what some others say simply because it doesn't make sense to you is not the best way to learn.   If you can't change then it's best that I don't bother teaching you what I understand and know how to do.

You have this bad habit that fighting is going to be "One thing" and then the fight is over.  Here are examples of your logic form things that you have shared.

1.  One iron palm strike and the fight will be over.
2. One good cane strike and the fight will be over.
3. If one technique works for one thing but not for another then discount that technique.

It's a very limited way of thinking of things and it's clearly stunting your ability to learn accomplish your goal.


----------



## geezer

JowGaWolf said:


> A lot of his swinging techniques are those that would be used with a staff.  This is what Oily Dragon was talking about in post #49. As for the video his form looks intimidating but it's mixed with some showmanship as well.   There's nothing in this video that provides enough information on if he can actually use what he's doing.  The most that I can say is that he has the body mechanics that would be needed to hit someone with that cane but that's about it.  If he can fight with his bow then he should be able to fight with the cane as well.
> 
> I took a look at some of the other videos on that channel and this stuff is too complicated for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do like this.  Tai Chi sword uses a similar concept as well. Chinese staff uses a similar concept as well.


Not really a fan of any of the approaches showcased in the three videos above, at least from a practical self defense perspective for middle-aged and older individuals.

*Video #1* The kata demonstrated is far too athletic with jumping and spinning kicks, etc. and also far too full of cane spins and twirls to be practical for self defense, especially for older individuals, even fit ones.

*Video #2 *This demo shows techniques which as you pointed out, are overly complicated, and also fail to make good use of a canes best attributes: namely it's function as a long range force multiplier that functions. Most of the close range combinations shown could be done as well or even more effectively with empty hands or a short range tool like a "palm stick".

The most egregious example of this failure to capitalize on the cane's length is how it is used here against a knife attack at 2:05 in the video. Why in heck would anybody try to defend against a knife attack by first parrying with a _bare hand_ when you are holding a stout cane? That's beyond stupid.

*Video #3 *When you are striking with a cane you need to generate real power. To that end you are best advised to 1. Have a strong, heavy cane, 2. To use a two handed grip when possible and 3. train striking using good kinetic linkages and whole-body engagement. Basically the stuff _Alan_ has been talking about for most of this thread.

Now sure there is a time for one-handed grips with the intermittent use of the off-hand to reinforce and accelerate a strike. But that's usually better employed with a  shorter stick ...that is an Escrima bastón, olisi, or similar weapon roughly 24 to 28 inches in length, ...not a hefty three foot cane.


----------



## geezer

JowGaWolf said:


> *Your grand daughter doesn't know how to fight with a cane or a staff. * so I wouldn't go on that feeling too much to define the weaknesses of using the cane, walking stick, or staff.


Ha! What Jow Ga said above! Your _grandaughter_ can't give you the physical input you need to realistically test and analyze your techniques. The next step in your development will be to recruit a couple of good training partners. And yeah, I do know how hard that can be.


JowGaWolf said:


> *It will be a liability if you don't know how to use that cane to fight close range* which is what I've been saying for a while now.  Using a cane for a long distance is an easier concept to understand. Using it in close range, not so much.  That's the weakness of the cane, walking stick, staff that Dirty Dog and I were talking about earlier on.
> 
> I wouldn't suggest dropping the cane.  It's better to learn to use it in close range than to just abandon it for the sake of grappling. The reason why is because dropping the cane gives your opponent to option to push you away, pick up your cane and then beat you with your own cane.  Keep in mind that you brought a self-defense cane to a fight, so it' not going to break if your opponent hits you with it.
> 
> If you want learn to fight with a cane, then understand that there's long range and close range cane fighting techniques that you'll need to develop.


Yep.l Just because the cane has the most to offer at longer range is no reason to ignore _practical_ close range application. In fact, the natural response of a determined attacker (i.e. one who won't run away as soon as you start swinging) _will be to close _and try to grapple.

After all, anybody whose ever faced someone swinging a stick knows that you've got to move inside to (mostly) nullify the sticks power. My problem with the use of close range tactics in the video perviously posted isn't with close range tactics, but with the fact that...

1. There is no attempt to maintain range and maximize the cane's advantage, and...

2. The particular close range tactics shown seem (as _Jow Ga _pointed out) to be complicated and IMO not very reliable.

Crafty Dog/Marc Denny of the Dog Bros. and a lot of others have much better stick-grappling moves you can research.


----------



## tim po

geezer said:


> *Video #3 *When you are striking with a cane you need to generate real power. To that end you are best advised to 1. Have a strong, heavy cane, 2. To use a two handed grip when possible and 3. train striking using good kinetic linkages and whole-body engagement. Basically the stuff _Alan_ has been talking about for most of this thread.
> 
> Now sure there is a time for one-handed grips with the intermittent use of the off-hand to reinforce and accelerate a strike. But that's usually better employed with a shorter stick ...that is an Escrima bastón, olisi, or similar weapon roughly 24 to 28 inches in length, ...not a hefty three foot cane.


i mostly agree,   i feel differently about one  handed cane technique, but not the way it was shown in the third video.

a cane is generally not a stout, three foot stick, and i don't feel that it needs to be. the main advantage of a heavier 'tactical' cane is that it will deliver a powerful head or knee shot, and already the thread has discussed the practical need to consider other options, for various reasoning.

  i am 6' and my cane is 32" long, so not quite a hanbo. and with the crook at one end, a cane differs from a staff as the crooked end offers different possibilities for handling and striking, and requires some different strategies than a straight staff. spinning a cane is not all that practical, and the idea of creating distance-though you can, you can create distance empty handed-it is not a bo, or a jo, or even hanbo, and to really use it to effect you will be getting close enough to be hit; the range of effective use is really not much wider than punching and (in the case of a full length tip-end  strike) kicking range.

i like working a cane with _mostly_ one hand, my dominant hand near the crooked end preferably, while the other hand can float- trap, parry, strike or hold the cane at any point along it's length to strike or thrust. the cane still provides advantage over empty hands this way because the hard ends increase impact power, and at any given time the length of space between your hands can be a hard weapon for striking or blocking.  i consider the cane a close-quarters weapon, and primarily a grappling tool- with the bonus of whip-fast distance strikes to the brachial plexus.


----------



## geezer

tim po said:


> *...a cane is generally not a stout, three foot stick*, and i don't feel that it needs to be....
> *i am 6' and my cane is 32" long,* so not quite a hanbo... and with the crook at one end, a cane differs from a staff as the crooked end offers different possibilities for handling and striking, and requires some different strategies than a straight staff.


I have about half-a dozen canes of different dimensions and weights, but the standard walking canes (such as used for orthopedic reasons) _average about 36 inches_ for most men around 6' tall depending on their proportions. I'm only about 5'8" and I've cut my canes down an inch or so.

Secondly, I advocate having some heft to a cane if used for self-defense. Yes a light cane cane be swung faster and make a helluva whip, but a more massive cane, when swung with body force, has considerably more impact and also hits really hard with a two-handed thrust. At close range, when someone grabs it, often the best bet is to release one hand and punch them, really hard. 

Stick grappling is a great option for a fit grappler, but not my first recommendation to an _older perso_n more interested in self-defense. I'm thinking of a _fit _older person mid fifties to mid seventies with a good martial arts background. Older than that, a gun is probably a better bet. For a while. ....After 90 or so, you pretty much depend on good judgement and help from others for safety. My dad will be 97 in a couple of months and, though fit for his age, has even given up his gun and car. He may even give up skiing this year. Honestly, he was a fierce little man until he got pretty old, but there are limits for all of us.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

geezer said:


> *Video #3 *When you are striking with a cane you need to generate real power.


I have a walking stick with a metal ball as the handler. I can use it yo generate a lot of power if needed.


----------



## tim po

can we all please agree that when discussing self-defense techniques, there is no need to state that 'a gun is probably better'?  

i was thinking quite the opposite-no, i wouldn't try to teach grappling to a 90 year old man with no experience, but i wouldn't encourage him to swing a heavy stick with two hands, either.  

assuming that someone chooses a cane because they are old enough to want to use one-if not necessarily need to use one-and thus might not be all that good at just 'punching them in the face really hard'. people good at punching probably don't need a stick weapon. if a person 'grabs' the end of my staff, any length staff, they had better be willing to let go of it right damn quick- as anybody with any degree of skill with a staff knows exactly how to toss someone who is grabbing the end of their staff-and it's not by letting go and punching him in the face.

there are better ways to strike with a cane than a two-fisted baseball-bat style swing.  if one carries a cane solely for the intention of defense, and thus chooses a specialty cane that is heavy and made of high-density polypropylene so it can pack a mean punch, they will have to train to use that particular cane to it's best effect, and it does provide more realistic options for KO strikes than a lighter cane.  it all comes down to movement basics, any cane or stick can deliver enough force to use for protection in any number of ways, if you're movement is correct, and you strike the right targets. that requires training and skill, like anything else. a strong person can amplify the force of their strike by using a heavy stick-this is true, but there is no need to discuss that truth, from a martial arts perspective. swinging a stick like a bat does not require martial arts skill, but even swinging a bat has a certain body mechanics it requires, no?  
 movement basics don't end at ' punch him really hard', and they don't begin with 'swing the stick with two hands'. first, you have to move your feet, putting your body where it* a.* doesn't get hit and* b*. has access to viable targets from it's position. going right from here to the big KO is usually going to be a mistake, you need to disrupt balance and inertia, striking for a measure of pain but also for position-you still have the primary goal of not getting hit.

ordinary canes are what i work with, but i am working on building a heavier, stouter one-i have a titanium replacement hip(that someone lost? don't know how i ended up finding one...)that i intent to fashion into a helluva SD cane! but I will have to modify my style somewhat. I have a different approach to canes, but also i have basic movement skills that i can count on, and a detailed knowledge of the targets of the body and strategies for reaching them (without getting hit).. i would make a video, but i don't have a camera. or an uke. i could ask a friend, but i only have a few, and chances are i'd have one less after showing them all the nasty stuff i can do with a cane...


----------



## JowGaWolf

tim po said:


> i was thinking quite the opposite-no, i wouldn't try to teach grappling to a 90 year old man with no experience, but i wouldn't encourage him to swing a heavy stick with two hands, either.


I don't think Alan is 90 yet lol.  If so, then he ages really well.


----------



## geezer

tim po said:


> ...can we all please agree that when discussing self-defense techniques, *there is no need to state that 'a gun is probably better'?*


I disagree. First, firearms skills are a martial art and were even so recognized in ancient Japan, so their appropriateness in any given situation is a legitimate topic to discuss. And, they are a necessary thing to discuss, considering that where I live, any adult who's not a felon can carry, openly or concealed, with or without a permit ...and many people do carry. I don't.



tim po said:


> i was thinking quite the opposite-no, i wouldn't try to teach grappling to a 90 year old man with no experience, but i wouldn't encourage him to swing a heavy stick with two hands, either.


I generally agree, although I did have an Escrima student in his mid 80s who really enjoyed stick-work, including some basic cane techniques.



tim po said:


> ...assuming that someone chooses a cane because they are old enough to want to use one-if not necessarily need to use one-and thus might not be all that good at just 'punching them in the face really hard'. people good at punching probably don't need a stick weapon.


Yeah, a person who can punch_ might_ also carry a "force amplifier" of some sort for self-defense, be it a palm-stick, a cane, a metal water bottle, a knife or a gun. Self-defense weapons aren't just for "wimps". In fact, if you don't have a decent empty hand background, most weapons, short of a knife or gun aren't enough.

We all know folks with no MA experience who _foolishly_ believe that just a weapon and a few tricks will protect them. You say as much yourself in your post.



tim po said:


> if a person 'grabs' the end of my staff, any length staff, they had better be willing to let go of it right damn quick- as anybody with any degree of skill with a staff knows exactly how to toss someone who is grabbing the end of their staff-and it's not by letting go and punching him in the face.


A staff is a very different animal than a short stick. A cane falls somewhere in-between. Yes, there are simple techniques to free a stick a grab, but at close range you can also maintain your forward momentum, and strike with your free hand to set up your next strike.

One thing worth noting: when a strong, resisting opponent has latched on to your stick with both hands, it is NOT always so easy to break free in an instant. But on the other hand, you _know where his hands_ are ... and he has to let go to hit you. That is a great time to hit _him!_ 

So, from a two-handed grip, retain control of your weapon with one hand, while releasing the other hand to punch, then continue with your stick.

At least this is something we train in the Escrima I learned from Rene Latosa and later from Martin Torres. And those guys know their stuff. Even a "soft-style" aikidoka, who used to teach my son, affirmed that a strike is a great set-up for a lock or throw.



tim po said:


> there are better ways to strike with a cane than a two-fisted baseball-bat style swing.


Yes and no. It's _situational,_ depending on range and what threat you are facing. What is your range from your opponent? What is the environment, i.e. how much space do you have? Is your opponent/attacker armed? ...and, if so with what? ...a bottle? ...a knife?  Context is very important!

BTW we train _different ways _to grip a stick, cane and staff, including several two-handed grips, for example: hands together, hands separated at shoulder width, palms both down, one palm up and one down, sliding grip thrust (like a pool cue), etc., with a lot of work on transitions.


tim po said:


> ...if one carries a cane solely for the intention of defense, and thus chooses a specialty cane that is heavy and made of high-density polypropylene so it can pack a mean punch, they will have to train to use that particular cane to it's best effect, and it does provide more realistic options for KO strikes than a lighter cane.  it all comes down to movement basics, any cane or stick can deliver enough force to use for protection in any number of ways, if you're movement is correct, and you strike the right targets. that requires training and skill, like anything else.


Yep.


tim po said:


> a strong person can amplify the force of their strike by using a heavy stick-this is true, but *there is no need to discuss that truth, from a martial arts perspective.* swinging a stick like a bat does not require martial arts skill, but even swinging a bat has a certain body mechanics it requires, no?


To the contrary, how to swing a stick (or bat) with accuracy, power, focus, distance and timing is something worth discussing ...and worth training! Like you say above ...it requires_ certain body mechanics._



tim po said:


> ...movement basics don't end at ' punch him really hard', and they don't begin with 'swing the stick with two hands'. first, you have to move your feet, putting your body where it* a.* doesn't get hit and* b*. has access to viable targets from it's position. going right from here to the big KO is usually going to be a mistake, you need to disrupt balance and inertia, striking for a measure of pain but also for position-you still have the primary goal of not getting hit.


I agree 100%.



tim po said:


> ordinary canes are what i work with, but i am working on building a heavier, stouter one-i have a titanium replacement hip(that someone lost? don't know how i ended up finding one...)that i intent to fashion into a helluva SD cane! but I will have to modify my style somewhat. I have a different approach to canes, but also i have basic movement skills that i can count on, and a detailed knowledge of the targets of the body and strategies for reaching them (without getting hit)..* i would make a video, but i don't have a camera. or an uke.* i could ask a friend, but i only have a few, and chances are i'd have one less after showing them all the nasty stuff i can do with a cane...


I totally get what you are saying here. I have no experience or equipment to make videos either. I do have a student who's offered to help, but we've been busy haven't been able get together and get anything done. On top of that he and his wife are just recovering from being sick with a "breakthrough"case of COVID-19. ...Well, maybe we'll get to it some day.


----------



## Dirty Dog

tim po said:


> can we all please agree that when discussing self-defense techniques, there is no need to state that 'a gun is probably better'?


No. The notion that there is any single answer is ludicrous.


tim po said:


> assuming that someone chooses a cane because they are old enough to want to use one-if not necessarily need to use one-and thus might not be all that good at just 'punching them in the face really hard'. people good at punching probably don't need a stick weapon.


Nonsense. Sometimes the hands are the right choice. Sometimes a stick is the right choice. Sometimes a gun is the right choice.


----------



## geezer

BTW - Sorry for the long wordy breakdown. I'm no authority like Chris Parker, but nevertheless, I do have my opinions! _Happy New year all!_


----------



## tim po

Dirty Dog said:


> No. The notion that there is any single answer is ludicrous.
> 
> Nonsense. Sometimes the hands are the right choice. Sometimes a stick is the right choice. Sometimes a gun is the right choice.


i don't think anything either of you have said in reply to me are in disagreement with what i am saying, as for guns, i just think it kinda goes without saying, thats all, and shouldn't be a conversation-ender when discussing non-firearm weapons.  

where you seem to disagree, i think it is a matter of how i said it more than what i am saying, i'm not expecting to sum it all up, just to touch on nuances and observations. i do not believe i have suggested any 'one and only way that will work for everyone all the time'. can we move on?

it is ALL worth discussing!  just adding a few cents to the pool of skill sharing. not attacking anyone.


----------



## tim po

addendum: striking (or something) with one hand while keeping control of the cane with the other is perfectly fair game, whether or not they have seized your cane, i should have worded that better.


----------



## geezer

tim po said:


> addendum: striking (or something) with one hand while keeping control of the cane with the other is perfectly fair game, whether or not they have seized your cane, i should have worded that better.


Ha! I knew we were actually agreeing on a lotta stuff.


----------



## JowGaWolf

geezer said:


> BTW - Sorry for the long wordy breakdown. I'm no authority like Chris Parker, but nevertheless, I do have my opinions! _Happy New year all!_


To be honest.  We have gone over a lot of this stuff already in previous years.  I think we have cleared most of the opinions in this place.  The only thing that is really left is "Preference."  Basically picking the best option for the person in question.


----------



## geezer

JowGaWolf said:


> To be honest.  We have gone over a lot of this stuff already in previous years.  I think we have cleared most of the opinions in this place.  The only thing that is really left is "Preference."  Basically picking the best option for the person in question.


TBH in the years that this forum has been going (over 20 years), we've discussed just about _every_ topic at some point, which is one reason why a lot of the dedicated old timers have moved on, some after tens of thousands of posts.

Guess it's a good thing some of us like to repeat ourselves ...or there would be nobody left!  

And that, BTW leads me to one of my New Year's resolutions, namely to recruit a few new forum members. Some areas dear to my heart are almost dead. For example the FMA sub forum sure could see some more action!


----------



## Oily Dragon

Just wanted to point out the funny, Mandarin word for staff is _gun_ or _bang_.

So, I agree again.  Range matters.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

geezer said:


> TBH in the years that this forum has been going (over 20 years), we've discussed just about _every_ topic at some point, which is one reason why a lot of the dedicated old timers have moved on, some after tens of thousands of posts.
> 
> Guess it's a good thing some of us like to repeat ourselves ...or there would be nobody left!
> 
> And that, BTW leads me to one of my New Year's resolutions, namely to recruit a few new forum members. Some areas dear to my heart are almost dead. For example the FMA sub forum sure could see some more action!


We've discussed basically every topic since I've been on here (about 10 years, longer if you count lurking). And a lot of the time I'll see a topic either title or posts go to a certain way, and I ignore it, being able to predict exactly where it will go. Which then gets proved right when I have to read through it cause a post gets reported. Different people, same posts lol. 

But, there are also surprises. New posts, that I hadn't thought of, and hadn't read that make me think of it slightly differently. And most of those come from new members, that haven't been indoctrinated into the global version of their view. And those are the ones that I learn from, and appreciate. As a result, my new years resolution is to appreciate new members more, and do my best to encourage them to stay and post, even (or especially) when they're posting new/controversial takes on decades-long arguments.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Oily Dragon said:


> Just wanted to point out the funny, Mandarin word for staff is _gun_ or _bang_.
> 
> So, I agree again.  Range matters.


I was unaware of this. Do you mean that the mandarin word for staff translates to either gun or bang, or that that's the literal phonetics of the translation for "Staff"? If the latter, that makes me wonder if the person who originally came up with the word gun knew chinese...


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JowGaWolf said:


> It may be due to the weight of the cane.  I know heavier weapons tend to naturally flow and lighter weapons tend to start and stop.
> 
> 
> I took your perspective and went and looked at the video again.  This time instead of just thinking of advice I can give about the swing. I took a "larger view."  when I did, I found myself thinking of the same things I train for staff.  Here's what went through my mind.
> 
> *Question:  *How would I attack Alan if he was swinging a cane?
> 
> *Analysis:* Rush him. After rushing him it wouldn't matter if he held onto the cane. As long as that cane is bound to his hand he's not going to be able to defend with that hand once that cane get's tangled in the scuffle. His inability to let go of the cane provides me with some opportunity. Alan not being able to slide the hands along the cane also opens some opportunities for me. I'm reminded of swords and machetes. We don't see them being bound to the wrist with rope and leather for a reason. On the most basic level, say the bound hand gets injured. you couldn't switch to the weapon to the good hand.
> 
> Swings to the head with a blunted weapon can be dulled by covering my head as I rush in.  With a bladed weapons the swings would be critical, with a blunted weapon I can take a hit so long as I'm not on the power end of the swing.  We have often seen this happen to people who spar in dog brothers.  It's also the thing that I'm most sensitive to when training staff.  "What if they rush me"  is an event that I have to prepare for with the staff and I'm seeing some of the same weaknesses with this cane
> 
> With my staff I train about 80% close range staff fighting and 20% long range all because I know the likely hood of being rushed is a real one.  This actually keep me from being worried about my staff being taken from me.
> 
> *Answer*:  I would bait the swing and not the poke.  Give him the target he wants if he's not willing to take it on his own.  Then close the distance.  The closer in I am the less he'll be able to do with that cane.  Especially because the cane is secure to his wrist.  He would have trouble with pulling the cane through.
> 
> 
> *Thoughts on training: * I think at this point he should be mixing it up with strikes and attacks.   Drill is one thing but usable combinations is another.  I would train a few combinations based on situations.
> 1. Keeping distance
> 2. Engaging long range
> 3. Engaging close range.
> 4. Protect weapon counters  "what if someone tries to take the cane away."


@Alan0354 I just realized I never responded to your response on my comments on this video/thread. First thing I want to say is that I think Jowga sums up my views perfectly. The best things to do would be to practice keeping distance, and learning transitions; ie: how to go from long range to short range, and short range to long range. You can't always rely that the first hit will finish things off, so you need to learn how to get to your favorite range, and learn how to prevent others from disengaging your weapon (although a rope that you said you have does a pretty good job of that).

You've stated your main experience is on striking, but my recommendation for you would actually be grappling. With a cane, you don't really need separate striking ability; either you're in a range to use your cane, or you're too close for striking to be effective. So really, what you'd need to know is how to grapple that way in case someone decides to rush you, you can make space. My recommendation would be either judo or silat since both are standing, and learning a standing grappling art will be more efficient at this point for you then refining your cane strikes further. If you need me to go into more detail on what I mean with that, let me know and I can.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I was unaware of this. Do you mean that the mandarin word for staff translates to either gun or bang, or that that's the literal phonetics of the translation for "Staff"? If the latter, that makes me wonder if the person who originally came up with the word gun knew chinese...







It could happen.


----------



## geezer

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I was unaware of this. Do you mean that the mandarin word for staff translates to either gun or bang, or that that's the literal phonetics of the translation for "Staff"? If the latter, that makes me wonder if the person who originally came up with the word gun knew chinese...


The phonetic translation of the Cantonese for staff is commonly written as _kwun_ or_ gwun_. But the similarity to the English term gun is coincidental. It's a false cognate.

Even though we credit the Chinese for inventing gunpowder, the early English term for a gun derives has northern germanic roots:








						gun | Etymology, origin and meaning of gun by etymonline
					

GUN Meaning: "an engine of war that throws rocks, arrows or other missiles from a tube by the force of explosive… See origin and meaning of gun.




					www.etymonline.com


----------



## JowGaWolf

geezer said:


> The phonetic translation of the Cantonese for staff is commonly written as _kwun_ or_ gwun_. But the similarity to the English term gun is coincidental. It's a false cognate.
> 
> Even though we credit the Chinese for inventing gunpowder, the early English term for a gun derives has northern germanic roots:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gun | Etymology, origin and meaning of gun by etymonline
> 
> 
> GUN Meaning: "an engine of war that throws rocks, arrows or other missiles from a tube by the force of explosive… See origin and meaning of gun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etymonline.com


Thanks for the research effort on that one.  Much appreciated.


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> From what I can tell anything below 5" or 6" (depending on context / techniques used)  really won't make any difference in the range. It just means you don't have to hold the cain at the very end.  Hand placement is always going to be about the same distance  You'll either hold it towards the end for longer range or towards the middle.   After 6" you start to get some extra space on the cane to use.  In my opinion should be long enough to get some additional space where you hold the cane.  There should be enough room on the straight end to hook wrists and elbows.
> 
> That little piece of the cane that is hooking around the arm is the extra space that you want.  If you have to put your hands very close together to get that same amount then the cane is too short.  The hand placement on the cane is about the distance you want to have in relation to the cane.  This will give you to ability to use leverage, which is going to be vital in close range fighting with a cane.
> 
> View attachment 27842
> 
> For me personally I rather have a cane that is the correct size for walking because at that point, the cane is longer than my longest weapon (my leg for kicking).  The swing radius of a cane depends of the position of the hand.  Holding the cane towards the middle shortens the range greatly.   The range can be shorten or increased as needed so long as you can move your hand freely along the cane.
> 
> 
> For example: the cane above is short range.  He could easily swing in a restaurant space or sidewalk  The swing range is a shorter distance than the elbow of the outstretch arm,  But look at the picture blow.  He has a nice range with room to spare.  His arm isn't even extend so he's got plenty of long range available if needed.
> View attachment 27843
> 
> When fighting with a 6 foot staff the hand placement on a staff will determine the swing radius.   This is also true for a cane.
> 
> The other thing you have to consider is the type of swing you are doing.  You will run out of horizontal swing space before you run out of horizontal swing space.  If I was in the same place as the guy in the middle, I could still do a vertical strike with a 6ft staff and not hit anyone else except the person I'm trying to hit.   By you being short, you get an extra bonus in availability of vertical swing space.  But in all reality.  I'll probably gain some horizontal space after that initial swing.  Most people are going to get up and get away from the guy with the swinging stick.  Not many people want to become involved in such situations like that.  You may have a couple of people who will try to tackle you, but most people don't want to be a part of the conflict that you have with the guy you are hitting.
> 
> View attachment 27844
> I'm 5'9" My sword in sheath is 39.5" which is a good size as it comes up a little above my hip.  I would want a cane this size because I can place weight on it if needed.   "36" is too small for walking and it feels too small when I use for a 2 hand swing of a cane that size.  It's great for a two hand sword swing that requires both hands to be at the end, but it's horrible for swing where I need my hands to be far apart.  Even a two hand thrust feels very short.  But my sword in sheath feels just right for that vertical down strike followed by a thrust. using 2 hands.
> 
> It's going to ultimately boil down to which options you want to have available one hand options vs two hand options.  I can swing a 39." cane like a one hand weapon,  But I don't think I can use the "36" like a two hand weapon.  This size only applies to me and my height.  The size will be different for you.


I have been playing with holding the cane at different part to shorten the reach instead of one set position. I just have to get use to moving. Without having the strap, it's much easier to change position.

I even practice switching between poking and striking both from left and right. The strap really limit the option.

I just ordered a new cane and going to cut it longer and see. But to me anything over 32" is really long. I don't know your sword, cane is very top heavy. Long ones are hard to swing and control. How do you stop the sword if you miss instead swinging the full arc?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Alan0354 said:


> don't know your sword, cane is very top heavy. Long ones are hard to swing and control. How do you stop the sword if you miss instead swinging the full arc?


Why stop it? Just let it run through a circle. That's faster and requires less energy than stopping and reversing direction.


----------



## Oily Dragon

geezer said:


> The phonetic translation of the Cantonese for staff is commonly written as _kwun_ or_ gwun_. But the similarity to the English term gun is coincidental. It's a false cognate.
> 
> Even though we credit the Chinese for inventing gunpowder, the early English term for a gun derives has northern germanic roots:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gun | Etymology, origin and meaning of gun by etymonline
> 
> 
> GUN Meaning: "an engine of war that throws rocks, arrows or other missiles from a tube by the force of explosive… See origin and meaning of gun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etymonline.com


Is it coincidental?

The Chinese bang (wooden club) is so called because of the sound it makes, which is also why the Scandinavian, Icelandic, Old Norse banga, also means to pound and hammer.  Like on a drum.

"Bang...bang...bang".  "Banga banga banga". A lot of words come from the sounds that we associate with them.  "Choo choo".

Gun/Gwan means something like "to beat many times with a tree".  Makes sense to me.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> I just ordered a new cane and going to cut it longer and see. But to me anything over 32" is really long. I don't know your sword, cane is very top heavy. Long ones are hard to swing and control. How do you stop the sword if you miss instead swinging the full arc?


I'll try to either find some videos or make a video of some basic swing techniques.  I'm getting the feeling that we are all over the place trying to help you, when you don't have the basics swings down.   In other words you are trying to learn how to swing that cane without really having any basics to build upon.  I think things will be easier for you if you can train the basics.   In addition, the basics are very functional


----------



## Alan0354

TaiChiTJ said:


> go spar with this dude !!!


I don't think this is a good way, he use the hook to hit, in real life, the hook will catch on stuffs(even on the opponent) and it will pull the cane off your hand all together.

I practice a little holding the end of the cane and swing the handle to hit. I still using the back of the handle to hit(not the hook). I still afraid that the hook might accident catch onto something and pull it off my hands. If not for that, it would be a good way to put weight on the front of the cane. I can use a lighter rattan cane and rely on the weight of the handle to hit. Then I can turn the cane around and swing with one hand.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Dirty Dog said:


> Why stop it? Just let it run through a circle. That's faster and requires less energy than stopping and reversing direction.


I think the difficulty here is that he's trying to do all of this without the basics.    Not one of us, to my knowledge, have introduced any basics that he should train.  We pretty much try to answer the questions he has and he's not understanding a lot of it, because he doesn't have that foundation. 

All of our statements have been based on our knowledge of other weapons and how we understand the basics can be applied to the cane.  We have just experienced the text book example of "There's no short path to learn this stuff."


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll try to either find some videos or make a video of some basic swing techniques.  I'm getting the feeling that we are all over the place trying to help you, when you don't have the basics swings down.   In other words you are trying to learn how to swing that cane without really having any basics to build upon.  I think things will be easier for you if you can train the basics.   In addition, the basics are very functional


I think I have the basic swinging technique down already. Might not be the way you want, it's more the Filipino escrima style. I also using the casting technique.

I am more practicing on interchanging swing and poke which I am practicing.


----------



## Dirty Dog

JowGaWolf said:


> I think the difficulty here is that he's trying to do all of this without the basics.    Not one of us, to my knowledge, have introduced any basics that he should train.  We pretty much try to answer the questions he has and he's not understanding a lot of it, because he doesn't have that foundation.
> 
> All of our statements have been based on our knowledge of other weapons and how we understand the basics can be applied to the cane.  We have just experienced the text book example of "There's no short path to learn this stuff."


Agreed. The OP certainly doesn't understand the basics. He insists that swinging a stick is the same as swinging a katana. A stick is swung like a bat. A katana is a slicing movement. I actually tried to explain the difference to him once, but there was no interest in learning. So I gave up. It's no use flogging a dead horse. Or slicing one up with a katana, either.


----------



## Alan0354

Dirty Dog said:


> Why stop it? Just let it run through a circle. That's faster and requires less energy than stopping and reversing direction.


Because in real life self defense situation, you do not have the open space. Try do it at home with all the furniture around you and you try to swing and swing through it. You'll see. That's what I did a few months ago, that's a whole lot easier. To be effective in a confined space, you have to use CASTING technique that pull back the cane. This is what Blindside(Lamont Glass) showed me and it's very effective.


----------



## Alan0354

Dirty Dog said:


> Agreed. The OP certainly doesn't understand the basics. He insists that swinging a stick is the same as swinging a katana. A stick is swung like a bat. A katana is a slicing movement. I actually tried to explain the difference to him once, but there was no interest in learning. So I gave up. It's no use flogging a dead horse. Or slicing one up with a katana, either.


I don't recall you ever try to explain, you just putting me down. I better stop as you are the moderator and you have more right.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Alan0354 said:


> Because in real life self defense situation, you do not have the open space.


You don't? It's cute that you think all self-defense scenarios are going to be the same. 
I treat a metric butt-ton of assaults. The vast majority of them occur in places with plenty of room. It doesn't take all that much to redirect the weapon and let it's arc continue all the way around. 
I don't think it's likely that I will be fighting inside a phone booth.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

JowGaWolf said:


> I think the difficulty here is that he's trying to do all of this without the basics.    Not one of us, to my knowledge, have introduced any basics that he should train.  We pretty much try to answer the questions he has and he's not understanding a lot of it, because he doesn't have that foundation.
> 
> All of our statements have been based on our knowledge of other weapons and how we understand the basics can be applied to the cane.  We have just experienced the text book example of "There's no short path to learn this stuff."


Actually a few of us gave him advice on fundamentals in his original post and he has worked through a few iterations of what he wants to build his practice on based on his experimentation with what we’ve suggested.

Alan was originally focused on single-hand methods and full swings, but after trying our advice on those he has opted instead to work on a two-handed grip and “casting” style strikes. That being the case, some of us have offered some suggestions on how he can improve the basics of those strikes. The stuff he’s working on isn’t my favorite basis for stick fighting, but it’s a valid approach.


----------



## Alan0354

Dirty Dog said:


> You don't? It's cute that you think all self-defense scenarios are going to be the same.
> I treat a metric butt-ton of assaults. The vast majority of them occur in places with plenty of room. It doesn't take all that much to redirect the weapon and let it's arc continue all the way around.
> I don't think it's likely that I will be fighting inside a phone booth.


Like I said, you are the moderator. I apologize, you are right.


----------



## Alan0354

Tony Dismukes said:


> Actually a few of us gave him advice on fundamentals in his original post and he has worked through a few iterations of what he wants to build his practice on based on his experimentation with what we’ve suggested.
> 
> Alan was originally focused on single-hand methods and full swings, but after trying our advice on those he has opted instead to work on a two-handed grip and “casting” style strikes. That being the case, some of us have offered some suggestions on how he can improve the basics of those strikes. The stuff he’s working on isn’t my favorite basis for stick fighting, but it’s a valid approach.


Thanks

Sorry I did not reply at the beginning, I was really busy as my grandkids were here. I read your post many times and took it to heart. You said I only use my arms to swing, I actually pay attention. I made the second video in post#21 after practice a few days. Can you take a look and see is it any better? Thanks

I am not trying to say that's the way for self defense, post #21 just the casting I practice.

I am just starting to read the old posts as I have more time now. I do listen and read the post and think a lot about it. I am not saying I will listen to everything, I have to play with the suggestions and see whether I agree or suit me before I incorporate into my practice. I definitely remove the strap around my wrist. I am practicing mix poking and swinging together to get use to switching hands, not just swing to strike. I pay attention to my hands to make sure they are not gripping too close.

One thing I really don't want to follow is like "kata" in MA. *I want to keep things very simple. I learn from MA training that less is more. I don't want to learn fancy moves, just very basic strike *to head, legs, then poke to mid section or neck.

If you see anything I did wrong, please let me know.

Thanks


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> Might not be the way you want, it's more the Filipino escrima style.


Not sure why you think it's about what I want.  Everything that I and others have been saying can be seen in these two videos.  Which were made long before I starting learning to use that staff.

Aris Cane





The same motions here can be done with a cane





This will be my last post about your cane hitting techniques.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tony Dismukes said:


> Actually a few of us gave him advice on fundamentals in his original post and he has worked through a few iterations of what he wants to build his practice on based on his experimentation with what we’ve suggested.
> 
> Alan was originally focused on single-hand methods and full swings, but after trying our advice on those he has opted instead to work on a two-handed grip and “casting” style strikes. That being the case, some of us have offered some suggestions on how he can improve the basics of those strikes. The stuff he’s working on isn’t my favorite basis for stick fighting, but it’s a valid approach.


I'll let you guys handle it.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Alan0354 said:


> You said I only use my arms to swing, I actually pay attention. I made the second video in post#21 after practice a few days. Can you take a look and see is it any better? Thanks


That is an improvement in terms of getting some hip power into your swings. Keep working on it, but you’re going in the right direction.

The other suggestion I made in my previous post was to let your hands be a little further apart. Just a few extra inches between your hands will help give you more control and leverage.

BTW, you don’t have to practice just casting or just swings with carry through. I would recommend you work on both, because each method can be helpful in the right situation.


----------



## geezer

Oily Dragon said:


> Is it coincidental?
> 
> The Chinese bang (wooden club) is so called because of the sound it makes, which is also why the Scandinavian, Icelandic, Old Norse banga, also means to pound and hammer.  Like on a drum.
> 
> "Bang...bang...bang".  "Banga banga banga". A lot of words come from the sounds that we associate with them.  "Choo choo".
> 
> Gun/Gwan means something like "to beat many times with a tree".  Makes sense to me.


Agreed. It's not necessarily "coincidence". In the case of "bang" appearing in separate, unrelated language families could due to the direct, iconic, _onomatopoetic relationship_ of the sound to the word.   

Many years ago (in the 1970s) when I took some college classes in linguistics, the role of onomatopoeia, rather than mere coincidence, as a source for such unrelated yet similar sounding words was still being debated. I have no idea if or how that discussion was resolved by academics.


----------



## geezer

Dirty Dog said:


> Why stop it? Just let it run through a circle. That's faster and requires less energy than stopping and reversing direction.


_*Yes,*_ and also _retract and extend_ the cane as you strike in a continuing circular or figure eight pattern.

That is _extending_ your arms, striking out in large circles toward your target, and then _contracting_ to a small tight circle as you continue around past your target with the tip circling quickly behind you and then coming back forward into the  next strike.

Watch how these guys recycle their energy while using a lot of circles and figure eights ...expanding and contracting the size of the circular strikes:


----------



## Alan0354

Tony Dismukes said:


> That is an improvement in terms of getting some hip power into your swings. Keep working on it, but you’re going in the right direction.
> 
> The other suggestion I made in my previous post was to let your hands be a little further apart. Just a few extra inches between your hands will help give you more control and leverage.
> 
> BTW, you don’t have to practice just casting or just swings with carry through. I would recommend you work on both, because each method can be helpful in the right situation.


Yes, the last few days, I am trying to practice in more flexible ways, I use casting and some straight swinging. I also incorporate poking to combine together.

Funny from reading the posts, I question whether some know what is CASTING. It is much more difficult than swinging in an arc and figure 8!!! It's not in the same league. I learned from videos on swinging an arc from one shoulder down and circle back to the opposite shoulder. Also the figure 8 swing. Those are so easy I got it in the first two months already. People need to try doing that outside of the dojo where there's nothing in the way.

How do I know it's important to know how to fight in surrounding with obstacles? BECAUSE I learned it the hard way. My living room is big than average already as shown in the videos, if I don't move the furniture back, I cannot swing like the typical Filipino stick fight. I would keep hitting the furniture accidentally. The worst is if you miss or hit something in the way accidentally, you have a good chance of the cane flying off.  Thanks to Lamont Glass making the video for me, I really learn. I spent 5 months practicing so far.



Following is not writing to Tony Dismukes, it's to other people.  If anyone disagree about casting, I would love to hear it:

* I want to show this video again*, I hope people will stop long enough to watch what is *CASTING. It is NOT EASY*!!! I truly believe this is the answer for real life fighting outside in real environment.* It is a way to strike hard without a wild swing*. Here is the video again:





It is NOT easy, but look at how hard Lamont Glass can hit. He is one of the founder of this site and he is an instructor of a school. Go check him out in this forum, he goes by "Blindside". It is like punching in close distance with control, you can hit hard, only thing is you need to practice a long time to get good at it. I am by no means good in Casting yet.


----------



## Alan0354

Check out Black Bird Training Group:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=blackbird+training+group+

Lamont Glass IS A MASTER OF STICKS.


----------



## dvcochran

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, the last few days, I am trying to practice in more flexible ways, I use casting and some straight swinging. I also incorporate poking to combine together.
> 
> Funny from reading the posts, I question whether some know what is CASTING. It is much more difficult than swinging in an arc and figure 8!!! It's not in the same league. I learned from videos on swinging an arc from one shoulder down and circle back to the opposite shoulder. Also the figure 8 swing. Those are so easy I got it in the first two months already. People need to try doing that outside of the dojo where there's nothing in the way.
> 
> How do I know it's important to know how to fight in surrounding with obstacles? BECAUSE I learned it the hard way. My living room is big than average already as shown in the videos, if I don't move the furniture back, I cannot swing like the typical Filipino stick fight. I would keep hitting the furniture accidentally. The worst is if you miss or hit something in the way accidentally, you have a good chance of the cane flying off.  Thanks to Lamont Glass making the video for me, I really learn. I spent 5 months practicing so far.
> 
> 
> 
> Following is not writing to Tony Dismukes, it's to other people.  If anyone disagree about casting, I would love to hear it:
> 
> * I want to show this video again*, I hope people will stop long enough to watch what is *CASTING. It is NOT EASY*!!! I truly believe this is the answer for real life fighting outside in real environment.* It is a way to strike hard without a wild swing*. Here is the video again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is NOT easy, but look at how hard Lamont Glass can hit. He is one of the founder of this site and he is an instructor of a school. Go check him out in this forum, he goes by "Blindside". It is like punching in close distance with control, you can hit hard, only thing is you need to practice a long time to get good at it. I am by no means good in Casting yet.


I hesitated to mention this earlier since weapon fighting is not my primary skill. In the post #21 video you are in more of a horse stance most of the time, shallow and wide. Comparing this to the video on post #103, you can see that he always has a leg much more forward (front stance). This makes power generation easier/better and is a more mobile posture.


----------



## Oily Dragon

Dirty Dog said:


> You don't? It's cute that you think all self-defense scenarios are going to be the same.
> I treat a metric butt-ton of assaults. The vast majority of them occur in places with plenty of room. It doesn't take all that much to redirect the weapon and let it's arc continue all the way around.
> I don't think it's likely that I will be fighting inside a phone booth



I know the perfect technique for self defense in a phone booth: get in and close the door.

Never heard of someone inside a phone booth being maimed or killed by someone outside of it.

Then again, first you have to find a phone booth...


----------



## Alan0354

dvcochran said:


> I hesitated to mention this earlier since weapon fighting is not my primary skill. In the post #21 video you are in more of a horse stance most of the time, shallow and wide. Comparing this to the video on post #103, you can see that he always has a leg much more forward (front stance). This makes power generation easier/better and is a more mobile posture.


Thanks

I notice that now. I thought I am supposed to have a horse stand as footwork!!! *THAT's what really messed up for me on the videos in post #1*. The last few weeks, I was actually practicing very deep horse stance to swing the cane, that really ruined the use of the shoulder and I actually forgot to use shoulder, waist and legs on the videos of the first post. Tony Dismukes pointed that out so I redo the video in post #21.

So the stance is still too wide? Yes, it's a whole lot more comfortable to have a higher stance that I can move more natural like when I do kick boxing.

I thought in post #5, you said I am too forward biased, I read your post and I make sure I stand straight.

Thanks



Side note: I am being accused I don't listen to the advice. I read VERY CAREFULLY. It was holidays, I was too busy. I actually *have not read pass page 2* yet, I am still going back to read now, so I never got to most of the posts!!! I am not going to say I will agree on all the suggestions, but I definitely will try it out. Like I do *not* practice using the hook of the cane to try to hook the person's neck and do all the fancy work. For one, I can lose my cane if the person jerks back. Also, I don't practice blocking if the opponent strike with cane that much at all because in self defense, I don't expect the young attacker have a cane or stick. I do spend a lot of time just on Casting. It looks simple, believe me, it's hard. But I can speak from experience, I can strike hard using Casting without swinging a big arc. Those swing from shoulder to the other shoulder in an arc or figure 8 are child's play. I did it in the first two months already and made the videos. It's the accidentally hitting furniture and lose the cane that really got me thinking and thanks to Lamont Glass introducing the Casting, I have not lost my cane for months. I am surprised some people here never think of losing the stick/cane in a fight. It happens all the time. The difference is in a competition, you lose the match. In real life, you can lose your life when you lose the cane.

Also, I try to keep the strike very simple, 4 strikes, two high, two low. Now I add the poking into the mix. I work very hard on cane fight the last few months, but mainly on what to me is important. Like what you said about the stance is VERY IMPORTANT and I will definitely try it out.

 I always going by *Less Is More* even in MA. Like in bare knuckles, I mainly practice jab and reverse punch, I don't do fancy moves. Occasionally a circle punch(same as Ridge Hands in TKD), that's it. I use this principle in practicing cane fight. 4 strikes and poke. I also add kicks with the cane also, *BUT* no fancy twirling, figure 8 and all that fancy moves. I might be new in stick fight, but I do have a few years of TKD/kick boxing under my belt. I truly believe in less is more. I hate katas and all the fancy moves. I only want stuffs that works.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Alan0354 said:


> I thought I am supposed to have a horse stand as footwork!!! *THAT's what really messed up for me on the videos in post #1*. The last few weeks, I was actually practicing very deep horse stance to swing the cane, that really ruined the use of the shoulder and I actually forgot to use shoulder, waist and legs on the videos of the first post.


There are weapons systems which work from a deep horse stance or something like it, but that changes the whole dynamic of how you generate power. I wouldn’t recommend that approach unless you have a good teacher who can work with you in person on the system and everything it entails.


----------



## Xue Sheng

I am of the opinion that a deep horse stance is not reality when it comes to cane SD


----------



## Oily Dragon

Xue Sheng said:


> I am of the opinion that a deep horse stance is not reality when it comes to cane SD


Unless you are driving the cane down hard.  In that case it's no different than swinging a sledgehammer on a tire.  Or staff forms that contain downward smashing strikes.  Deep ma bo is intended for learning and becoming comfortable with fast level changes.  Fighting applications usually involve a higher horse stance (as seen below).

Whether or not that counts as "defense" is left open to interpretation.  I'm still on the side of de- fence where the stick is best used to create and keep distance, strike the opponents hands, and not necessarily brain them.  These kinds of dropping gravity strikes are meant to harm people already on the ground.  Judge might be a bit suspicious.

Banga!


----------



## Alan0354

Thanks guys, *this is helpful, this is exactly the advice I need*. I agree that deep horse stance is not very useful in real application. I just got into deep horse stance a month ago because from doing that, it actually help my stability in everyday living and also relieve the pain in my knee. So I started practicing it. I just happened to mix into with the cane. I notice I cannot turn my body that easy with the strike, but I kept practicing. I did not realize that actually affected my normal cane even if I don't use deep stance.

I should have made the video like in the post #1 earlier to see the problem before I posted it and fix it first.

So far, I also learn that I can open up and swing more an arc sometimes. It's not all Casting or nothing. Sound simple, but I never stop and think about this. That was a good advice from Tony Dismukes. Now I am mixing in Casting and open swing in my exercise, together with a lot of poking. I also reminded in this thread from GowgaWolf that it is not good to use the strap around the wrist. Now that I got rid of the strap, I can open up and mix poking from both side. I start practicing strikes and pokes back and fore to get use to it. With Casting, I have not lost the cane the last few months.

Also, believe it or not, I know about "choking" to make the cane shorter for close range. I just never practice and always hold the cane at the longest range. GowgoWolf reminded me, now I am consciously reminding myself when close range, choke the cane a little to shorten it. I now practice back and fore between choking and all out. Hopefully I can get use to a longer cane.

Thanks guys, keep the comments coming.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Alan0354 said:


> ...
> I actually *have not read pass page 2* yet, I am still going back to read now, so I never got to most of the posts!!! I am not going to say I will agree on all the suggestions, but I definitely will try it out.



Alan, 
If you have not read my reply, please do so. If you have could you let me know how it went for you? 
I really think what I suggested would be a place to step back and get some good body mechanics. 
As to footwork, I recommend an Oblique Front walking. Oblique - Non Parallel - Non Perpendicular 
Take a standard step forward. You feet won't be as wide as the class front walking and your feet may not be parallel as well. 
Concentrate on weight and not casting to get the hips and body rotation in, and then go back and add the casting back in.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan0354 said:


> Thanks guys, keep the comments coming.


What's the goal of your cane training? Do you intend to fight against people with:

1. open hand?
2. cane?
3. another kind of weapon (such as sword, long staff, ...)?


----------



## Xue Sheng

Oily Dragon said:


> Unless you are driving the cane down hard.  In that case it's no different than swinging a sledgehammer on a tire.  Or staff forms that contain downward smashing strikes.  Deep ma bo is intended for learning and becoming comfortable with fast level changes.  Fighting applications usually involve a higher horse stance (as seen below).
> 
> Whether or not that counts as "defense" is left open to interpretation.  I'm still on the side of de- fence where the stick is best used to create and keep distance, strike the opponents hands, and not necessarily brain them.  These kinds of dropping gravity strikes are meant to harm people already on the ground.  Judge might be a bit suspicious.
> 
> Banga!



I tend to look at cane SD as to be used by those that need a cane and not those who are just carrying one around as a weapon for SD...not that I actually mean to quote Bruce Lee, but he did say what I am thinking when it comes to cane SD. The goal should be simply to simplify. Training a horse stance.... seems over complicate things and to not be applicable from my perspective for the cane.

The horse stance has it uses, I just don't see it as a great idea for training cane SD


----------



## Dirty Dog

Xue Sheng said:


> I tend to look at cane SD as to be used by those that need a cane and not those who are just carrying one around as a weapon for SD...not that I actually mean to quote Bruce Lee, but he did say what I am thinking when it comes to cane SD. The goal should be simply to simplify.


I don't disagree, but I think if you NEED a cane, it's going to be even more difficult to use it as a weapon. The good thing about a cane is that nobody will think anything of it. Not even the TSA.
I don't think a cane is a great weapon. It's certainly not near the top of my list of things to carry. But it's better than nothing.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't disagree, but I think if you NEED a cane, it's going to be even more difficult to use it as a weapon. The good thing about a cane is that nobody will think anything of it. Not even the TSA.
> I don't think a cane is a great weapon. It's certainly not near the top of my list of things to carry. But it's better than nothing.



Speaking as one who has needed a cane for a few months now.... it is difficult, especially if you base it on the stuff I see out there as cane SD. However there are ways to make it work, just as long as you are not planning on horse stances, quick back steps, front kicks, swinging it like a baseball bat and the like...as I see in a lot of the videos of it. And those videos are made for the exact thing you are talking about. And they are fine for the average martial artist. But not people who actually need it who may want to have some sort of SD. There are ways to use it if you need....believe me, I'm working on it, have been for a while.


----------



## Alan0354

Oily Dragon said:


> A way to spot good staff training is to watch the hands move effortlessly around the stick.  A longer staff gives you a lot more room to extend and contract.  Jow Ga's staff form shares a lot of common ancestry with the other Eight Trigram long staff forms, and it's not too difficult to translate it to shorter sticks.  It's all in the hands.


I finally get to your post. Interesting, sliding the hand along the stick. I really do not get use to it, seems like the cane is too short to do that


JowGaWolf said:


> Not a cane, Not even a good video for using a baton
> 
> Most people who hear staff training think of long distance striking and fighting.  It wasn't until I started to seriously train to learn the staff that I discovered that there are a lot of close range stuff in there.  There's a couple of techniques where I thought.  Man this is slow. I'll get punched before I hit someone like this.  Then it occurred to me that maybe the movement does something else.  I did a gentle test on my son and asked him what did he feel.  Then I had him do a similar test to see if I felt the same thing.  It worked better against grappling which is probably why it's slow and powerful vs fast and powerful.  But it was always taught as a strike.  Can I hit someone in the head with it.  Of course, but it's like a slow power punch and not a fast powerful jab.  I now enjoy the staff more, now that I understand the close range fighting techniques.
> 
> I came to this conclusion as well when I used my sword (in sheath) today using some of the staff technique.  A cane of the same height would should be able to perform the same way.  A Jo would be taller and a really good fit for similar moves.  As we can see it can be done with a cane but if it's too short then there won't be much wood on the striking end.  The movement of the hand allows him to change the length of the stick that is being used to strike.  His left hand moves to the opposite end of the can and so does his right hand.  A rubber tip isn't going to soften those thrusts much.  Catch one of those thrust in the mouth and I'm pretty sure the other guy will want to cut his loses short unless he has a gun lol.


I finally get to your posts. Interesting, sliding the hand along the stick. I really do not get use to it, seems like the cane is too short to do that.


EDIT: I tried it for a set, I just cannot get used to sliding along the cane. Maybe for long pole, it's useful, I am not sure for a crook cane. I just cannot get power out of it.


----------



## Alan0354

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have a walking stick with a metal ball as the handler. I can use it yo generate a lot of power if needed.


I have canes like that by Cold Steel





Yes, if you use the metal end, it can hit hard. Problem is it won't hang on anything which is a big inconvenient for day to day carry. This is something you carry a lot and hopefully never use it. I have two of them and I modified to this, the one on the left:



I also don't want the shinny handle to attract attention also. It's the most expensive canes in my collection.




BTW: I am still trying to catch up with the old posts on page #3. It will take me more than a day to catch up. I don't want people to think I am rude and not listening.* I barely on page #3 right now!!!*


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Alan0354 said:


> Interesting, sliding the hand along the stick. I really do not get use to it, seems like the cane is too short to do that.


Yeah, I’m a big fan of sliding the hand for longer sticks and staves, not so much for cane length sticks. It can be done effectively, but for me it doesn’t feel ideal. Perhaps if you already had a lot of experience using that method for the long staff and were making the adjustment to using a cane then it might make sense to apply what you were already used to.


----------



## Alan0354

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> @Alan0354 I just realized I never responded to your response on my comments on this video/thread. First thing I want to say is that I think Jowga sums up my views perfectly. The best things to do would be to practice keeping distance, and learning transitions; ie: how to go from long range to short range, and short range to long range. You can't always rely that the first hit will finish things off, so you need to learn how to get to your favorite range, and learn how to prevent others from disengaging your weapon (although a rope that you said you have does a pretty good job of that).
> 
> You've stated your main experience is on striking, but my recommendation for you would actually be grappling. With a cane, you don't really need separate striking ability; either you're in a range to use your cane, or you're too close for striking to be effective. So really, what you'd need to know is how to grapple that way in case someone decides to rush you, you can make space. My recommendation would be either judo or silat since both are standing, and learning a standing grappling art will be more efficient at this point for you then refining your cane strikes further. If you need me to go into more detail on what I mean with that, let me know and I can.


I just got to this post. I assume you meant my response to your post#4.

I took out all the straps on my canes, I am not going to use the strap anymore. My moves are open up wide now that I don't have the strap that tie the cane on my left hand.

Yes, I have been practicing hitting from different distance now since this thread. I practice to switch striking by swinging and poking using both hands from both left and right side. I keep practicing switching from strike to poking to the body and head. Also, I start practice holding the cane at different position depends on striking at a distance or close distance. So many things that I should know but not practice.

Thanks


----------



## Oily Dragon

Alan0354 said:


> I finally get to your post. Interesting, sliding the hand along the stick. I really do not get use to it, seems like the cane is too short to do that


How many directions do you see?

Is it 8?  Why not?


----------



## Alan0354

Rich Parsons said:


> Alan,
> 
> The Casting is great technique to learn and works.
> For me, I have found that it works best against an object - e.g. Heavy Bag.
> 
> The arms is where all your work is coming from so it will be tiring and seem slow and may not look correctly to you in your videos.
> 
> Getting the body (Shoulders and Hips) into the equation is the next step. Yes, this is a process and sometimes you learn something to help with a concept and body motion and then have to move past the rest to move to the next step. That is not the case here, just pointing it out for the future.
> 
> Take the advice a slight larger distance start with about an inch more between the hands.
> This next will be slow training until you get it and then it can be sped up.
> 
> Start in the air, keep your primary hand at about 90 degreed from forearm to cane.
> pick your target, - Door or corner - pick something you don't want to hit and damage, and then slowly try to hit the object but stop about 5 inches (~13 cm) short and later 3 (~8 cm)  and then maybe even 1 inch (2 to 3  cm).
> 
> Now to get the target (tip of the cane) close to the target, you will need to move your body. So try not to move your shoulders. Stick an empty glass case (soft) or deck of cars under your primary arm pit and this will help you keep your elbows in and not rely upon shoulders.
> This will then get you to move your torso. The easiest way to begin this, is to place your weight on the side where the stick is coming from. The weight can be 51-99 % what ever is comfortable and makes sense for distance to target and how far you have to rotate.
> The weight bearing knee will be bent.
> The hips will rotate into / with the strike.
> Yes it will seem like one is chopping with an axe.
> 
> Why is this a good next step?
> Simple Force equals Mass times Acceleration. Once you get your torso and hips into the moving equation the force is increase.
> example: 75 kg man swings with just their arms at 5 kg (Easy math not real) and they accelerate at factor 2 then force would be 10
> If one then adds in their torso and get say 25 kg of movement with the same factor of 2 for acceleration this provides a value of 50 .
> That means one would have to move at the acceleration rate of 10 to get the same results for force.
> 
> *** To Math/Physics/Engineers/PT/Doctors et al: Yes, I know there are lots of partial losses and vectors and the absolute is not as great as this example, yet the point is made clear I hope.
> 
> Once you get your control down slowly, move to the bag and go slowly there as well.
> After the new target is comfortable then change the stopping point to be an inch or two (2 - 6 cm) inside the bag.
> Yes the cane will "Stick" to the target. This is part of the training to make sure your weight is moving.
> 
> Then shift your weight to the other side and try again from the other side.
> 
> Now that this is comfortable, break the 90 degree angle and cast at the end of the strike with the bag.
> When practicing without a bag as the target, keep the 90 Degrees to help with the body absorbing the force as it stops versus the wrist and shoulders.
> 
> Good Luck


Hi Rick Parsons

*I don't know how I missed you post at the very beginning!!* Sorry I did not reply until now. I finally finished reading page 4 and start on page 5 of this thread!!!

This is very interesting, holding something in the armpit of the major hand and swing. I definitely will try that. This reminds me of my teacher of TKD told us to do hook punch to the body as if we are holding something in our arm pit to make sure we engage our body.

We learned to punch using the foot. Like when we do Jab and reverse punch. when doing the reverse punch(in orthodox stance with left foot forward, when punching with right hand)  we turn the body until the right heel lifts off the ground. Same as when we punch with the left hand, the body weight shift and the left heel lifts up.

I can definitely relate to what you are talking. One thing, I do take a lot of what I learn in TKD and put it to use in cane exercise. This is the kind of advice I really need, learn a lot from this thread, so many new things to practice.

I also trying to pay attention to put some space between the two hands. I already have like 1" between them, I guess it's still too close.

Thanks




EDIT: I tried two sets of holding both elbows in against my body as if I am holding something in the armpits. That immobilized both upper arms. I do flex the elbow when hitting to give me a more realistic hit. But still the swing is mainly from the body, waist, legs. I use the technique of lifting the heels when I turn the body like I learned before. Hope that will improve my body engagement. It's kind of strange so far!!!


----------



## Alan0354

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the goal of your cane training? Do you intend to fight against people with:
> 
> 1. open hand?
> 2. cane?
> 3. another kind of weapon (such as sword, long staff, ...)?


I expect more open hand. This is self defense on the street, don't think that many people carry a cane or a stick or sword etc.


Finally, I am catching up in this thread.


----------



## Alan0354

Xue Sheng said:


> Speaking as one who has needed a cane for a few months now.... it is difficult, especially if you base it on the stuff I see out there as cane SD. However there are ways to make it work, just as long as you are not planning on horse stances, quick back steps, front kicks, swinging it like a baseball bat and the like...as I see in a lot of the videos of it. And those videos are made for the exact thing you are talking about. And they are fine for the average martial artist. But not people who actually need it who may want to have some sort of SD. There are ways to use it if you need....believe me, I'm working on it, have been for a while.


You need a cane to walk? Is it injury or age? How do you use your cane for SD? It seems to be very hard if you have to depend on the cane.

There are canes that have stun gun built in.

Amazon.com : ZAP Walking Cane 1 Million Volt Stun Device with LED Flashlight. : Sports & Outdoors

There are a lot of options selling on Amazon:

Amazon.com : cane with stun gun

That seems to be more effective.


----------



## dvcochran

Alan0354 said:


> Thanks
> 
> I notice that now. I thought I am supposed to have a horse stand as footwork!!! *THAT's what really messed up for me on the videos in post #1*. The last few weeks, I was actually practicing very deep horse stance to swing the cane, that really ruined the use of the shoulder and I actually forgot to use shoulder, waist and legs on the videos of the first post. Tony Dismukes pointed that out so I redo the video in post #21.
> 
> So the stance is still too wide? Yes, it's a whole lot more comfortable to have a higher stance that I can move more natural like when I do kick boxing.
> 
> I thought in post #5, you said I am too forward biased, I read your post and I make sure I stand straight.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Side note: I am being accused I don't listen to the advice. I read VERY CAREFULLY. It was holidays, I was too busy. I actually *have not read pass page 2* yet, I am still going back to read now, so I never got to most of the posts!!! I am not going to say I will agree on all the suggestions, but I definitely will try it out. Like I do *not* practice using the hook of the cane to try to hook the person's neck and do all the fancy work. For one, I can lose my cane if the person jerks back. Also, I don't practice blocking if the opponent strike with cane that much at all because in self defense, I don't expect the young attacker have a cane or stick. I do spend a lot of time just on Casting. It looks simple, believe me, it's hard. But I can speak from experience, I can strike hard using Casting without swinging a big arc. Those swing from shoulder to the other shoulder in an arc or figure 8 are child's play. I did it in the first two months already and made the videos. It's the accidentally hitting furniture and lose the cane that really got me thinking and thanks to Lamont Glass introducing the Casting, I have not lost my cane for months. I am surprised some people here never think of losing the stick/cane in a fight. It happens all the time. The difference is in a competition, you lose the match. In real life, you can lose your life when you lose the cane.
> 
> Also, I try to keep the strike very simple, 4 strikes, two high, two low. Now I add the poking into the mix. I work very hard on cane fight the last few months, but mainly on what to me is important. Like what you said about the stance is VERY IMPORTANT and I will definitely try it out.
> 
> I always going by *Less Is More* even in MA. Like in bare knuckles, I mainly practice jab and reverse punch, I don't do fancy moves. Occasionally a circle punch(same as Ridge Hands in TKD), that's it. I use this principle in practicing cane fight. 4 strikes and poke. I also add kicks with the cane also, *BUT* no fancy twirling, figure 8 and all that fancy moves. I might be new in stick fight, but I do have a few years of TKD/kick boxing under my belt. I truly believe in less is more. I hate katas and all the fancy moves. I only want stuffs that works.


Well done.
I think my 'too far forward' comment early on was when you were in a horse stance. Since one foot was not forward, you were leaned far away from your base. But in front stance that is not much of an issue.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Alan0354 said:


> You need a cane to walk? Is it injury or age? How do you use your cane for SD? It seems to be very hard if you have to depend on the cane.
> 
> There are canes that have stun gun built in.
> 
> Amazon.com : ZAP Walking Cane 1 Million Volt Stun Device with LED Flashlight. : Sports & Outdoors
> 
> There are a lot of options selling on Amazon:
> 
> Amazon.com : cane with stun gun
> 
> That seems to be more effective.



Knee replacement. I've been in martial arts since 1972, Chinese martial arts since 1991, and it is a work in progress. That is also why I like Tom Bisio's stuff on cane SD. More realistic. The cane is temporary, but I have had to use one to walk, several times, since 2019 due to various knee surgeries.


----------



## Alan0354

Xue Sheng said:


> Knee replacement. I've been in martial arts since 1972, Chinese martial arts since 1991, and it is a work in progress. That is also why I like Tom Bisio's stuff on cane SD. More realistic. The cane is temporary, but I have had to use one to walk, several times, since 2019 due to various knee surgeries.


Good to hear, keep at it, you'll recover.


----------



## Alan0354

Rich Parsons said:


> Alan,
> If you have not read my reply, please do so. If you have could you let me know how it went for you?
> I really think what I suggested would be a place to step back and get some good body mechanics.
> As to footwork, I recommend an Oblique Front walking. Oblique - Non Parallel - Non Perpendicular
> Take a standard step forward. You feet won't be as wide as the class front walking and your feet may not be parallel as well.
> Concentrate on weight and not casting to get the hips and body rotation in, and then go back and add the casting back in.


Not ready to make another video yet, BUT I am having a BALL doing the exercise as if I am holding something in my armpit!!! I did FIVE sets yesterday. It's getting faster.

I don't do any horse stance anymore, My footwork is going back to the roots of what I learn in kick boxing( I don't want to say TKD as my teacher was nothing traditional, we don't do katas until a week before belt test, we fought standing almost straight and use boxing hands. We called the fighting stance). Fighting stance allow us to turn the hip much easier, I think it's like what you described here, left foot forward, feet only a little over 1ft apart (more like 1 1/2) knee slightly bend. We can move a lot faster like that.

I was watching videos on FMA escrima, they kept using wider stance, I thought that's how I should do. I am going back to my old fighting stance now.

I even practicing poking(thrusting) with my right arm like holding something in the armpit. This forces me to use more body to poke. For the longest time, I kept thinking I only use both arms to thrust the tip of the cane forward, it's not strong enough, now I am using my body.

Thanks, this is very useful. Hopefully this is as big a game changer as learning Casting. Funny it doesn't feel as tiring as before. Must be that I tried too hard swinging only with arms before.


----------



## Alan0354

Xue Sheng said:


> Knee replacement. I've been in martial arts since 1972, Chinese martial arts since 1991, and it is a work in progress. That is also why I like Tom Bisio's stuff on cane SD. More realistic. The cane is temporary, but I have had to use one to walk, several times, since 2019 due to various knee surgeries.


*I am not a doctor and I have no experience specifically on knees*. BUT, I truly believe in weight training for rehab and recovery.     Let me be very specific, using heavier weight weapons or punching with weights to train in your MA is *NOT* the way, it has to be weight training in the gym. You need to find a doctor that believes in rehab with weights and give you the prescription to get the training. Then you can be on your own.

Let me give you a little bit of my history. I was training very hard in TKD and kick boxing in the early to mid 80s. I injured my back from all the high kicks and I had to quit. I tried all the different doctors including Chinese stuffs short of surgery, nothing worked. For almost two years, I could not stand for 2 minutes without tingling going down my legs all the way to the toe. I was disabled.

 Finally the doctor in St. Mary's Spine Center( the place that operated on Joe Montana) put me onto a rehab with weights. They made me do so weight exercise and monitor my posture to make sure I don't injure myself( you have to be careful doing weights). It was a MIRACLE. I slowly recovered, I slowly got back into kick boxing at home with heavy bags and all. I have been doing it since for the last 30 years.

I never stop weight training. I joined a gym and workout 3 times a week until two years ago when the gym closed down due to the Covid. I started buying equipment and do it at home since. Never slack off because it's the ONLY thing that keep me healthy. 

I put a lot more time in MA particular the cane fight. I workout over 6 hours a week ( like over an hour a day, 5 days a week). Half the time is on weight training.

I have all sort of injuries, the shoulders, knees, elbows, back and neck. I ALWAYS find one particular weight exercise to fix the injuries so far. The worst I have is a Cortisone injection to the knee. Knock on wood, I have been fixing myself all these years.

*Like I said, I am NOT a doctor, I cannot tell you what to do, talk to a doctor* and see. Keep having surgery is not the answer. recovery is very long.


----------



## Alan0354

I am still here, not slacking off at all. I have been practicing everyday. Just nothing to show. Here is how I practice. I hold both arms close to body to swing and I try not to use the forearm to swing. Here is the video of my practice. Please comment if you see something:






I do at least one set of this to start before doing with casting. Still not comfortable doing casting. BUT, I swear, the cane feels lighter. I start putting on the rubber foot(adding some weight at the tip), and I cut the new cane 1" longer. It still feels comfortable. I even play with turning the cane around and swing with the crook handle at the front. Seems like using the body, that take stress off the arms.

Thanks


----------



## Oily Dragon

Alan0354 said:


> I am still here, not slacking off at all. I have been practicing everyday. Just nothing to show. Here is how I practice. I hold both arms close to body to swing and I try not to use the forearm to swing. Here is the video of my practice. Please comment if you see something:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do at least one set of this to start before doing with casting. Still not comfortable doing casting. BUT, I swear, the cane feels lighter. I start putting on the rubber foot(adding some weight at the tip), and I cut the new cane 1" longer. It still feels comfortable. I even play with turning the cane around and swing with the crook handle at the front. Seems like using the body, that take stress off the arms.
> 
> Thanks


You hurt your toe?


----------



## Alan0354

Oily Dragon said:


> You hurt your toe?


From kicking the heavy bag!!! Two cracks!!  Winter dry and cold don't help either. Using more body to swing the cane doesn't help also, the feet keep turning on the floor. I don't kick front kick with the toe(of cause, kicking with the ball of the foot) but just the stress of kicking crack the skin next to the toe nail. It actually gets bloody!!!


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Alan0354 said:


> I am still here, not slacking off at all. I have been practicing everyday. Just nothing to show. Here is how I practice. I hold both arms close to body to swing and I try not to use the forearm to swing. Here is the video of my practice. Please comment if you see something:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do at least one set of this to start before doing with casting. Still not comfortable doing casting. BUT, I swear, the cane feels lighter. I start putting on the rubber foot(adding some weight at the tip), and I cut the new cane 1" longer. It still feels comfortable. I even play with turning the cane around and swing with the crook handle at the front. Seems like using the body, that take stress off the arms.
> 
> Thanks


Looking good. When you hit for real, you will want to let your arms fly a bit more, but what you are doing in that video is a good exercise for reminding yourself that most of your power should come from your hips. And yes, it will make the cane feel lighter.


----------



## Alan0354

Tony Dismukes said:


> Looking good. When you hit for real, you will want to let your arms fly a bit more, but what you are doing in that video is a good exercise for reminding yourself that most of your power should come from your hips. And yes, it will make the cane feel lighter.


I just want show I practice with arm close to body as if I am holding something in the armpit. I make sure this is my first set every morning to start. I still not comfortable with casting, I have to keep reminding myself to use the body to drive the swing. Give me more time before I make a video on casting.

Thanks for your post, it really helps. Funny that most of my sticks are too short now because I can swing a longer stick!! Or putting the rubber foot on to add weight at the tip. the only victim is my toe, because of the turning of the feet on the floor, the skin cracks and it's bleeding. I have to tape it up for practice.

Thanks


----------



## wab25

I had a couple of thoughts. I read the first few pages... then got tied up at work... by the time I got back, there were quite a few pages to catch up on... I skimmed, so if someone beat me to these... sorry 

First thought is the legal question. You do not need a cane. Watching these videos, and seeing how you move, you do not need one. You are in fact carrying the cane to be used as a weapon. In the event that you need to defend yourself, if it is caught on camera, it will be apparent that you do not need a cane, the way you are moving and striking with it. I would highly suggest, that you read and understand the law, where you are, about carrying and using weapons. If you travel, you should also know the laws for the places you go to. I am not trying to talk you out of the training, or the cane... just suggesting that there is more to prepare for than just taking out the bad guy. If you get attacked, and severely injure the other guy you could be looking at both criminal and civil trials. I would also bet that these threads here, with the videos of you training will be found and used. Understanding the law is very important, any time you carry any weapon at all. 

Second thought... many people have suggested some form of grappling to add in, in case the distance gets closed or the cane gets grabbed. I am not a fan of tying the weapon to my wrist... the cane now becomes a great big handle for the bad guy to use to control me. What I would suggest, is to find a school that can teach you Hanbo. There are lots of grappling moves with the Hanbo, that will translate directly to your cane. Many are designed for the specific situation, where the bad guy grabs your stick or closes distance. The other point about Hanbo training, is that many of the techniques translate into many different weapons of opportunity: canes, sticks, clubs, rules, wrenches, pens, rolled up magazines, and cloth. Now you would not need to always have your cane, but just always know where the Hanbo'ish weapons are that are around you. This training will also give you a way to choke out, put down the bad guy, with out injury... which will help with the legal aspect. 

Just some thoughts.


----------



## Alan0354

wab25 said:


> I had a couple of thoughts. I read the first few pages... then got tied up at work... by the time I got back, there were quite a few pages to catch up on... I skimmed, so if someone beat me to these... sorry
> 
> First thought is the legal question. You do not need a cane. Watching these videos, and seeing how you move, you do not need one. You are in fact carrying the cane to be used as a weapon. In the event that you need to defend yourself, if it is caught on camera, it will be apparent that you do not need a cane, the way you are moving and striking with it. I would highly suggest, that you read and understand the law, where you are, about carrying and using weapons. If you travel, you should also know the laws for the places you go to. I am not trying to talk you out of the training, or the cane... just suggesting that there is more to prepare for than just taking out the bad guy. If you get attacked, and severely injure the other guy you could be looking at both criminal and civil trials. I would also bet that these threads here, with the videos of you training will be found and used. Understanding the law is very important, any time you carry any weapon at all.
> 
> Second thought... many people have suggested some form of grappling to add in, in case the distance gets closed or the cane gets grabbed. I am not a fan of tying the weapon to my wrist... the cane now becomes a great big handle for the bad guy to use to control me. What I would suggest, is to find a school that can teach you Hanbo. There are lots of grappling moves with the Hanbo, that will translate directly to your cane. Many are designed for the specific situation, where the bad guy grabs your stick or closes distance. The other point about Hanbo training, is that many of the techniques translate into many different weapons of opportunity: canes, sticks, clubs, rules, wrenches, pens, rolled up magazines, and cloth. Now you would not need to always have your cane, but just always know where the Hanbo'ish weapons are that are around you. This training will also give you a way to choke out, put down the bad guy, with out injury... which will help with the legal aspect.
> 
> Just some thoughts.


Same can be said for other weapons. Even for bare knuckles, the logic still applies. If I follow your logic, I might as well not defending myself.

Idea is not to start a fight, but when it comes knocking at your door, you don't have a choice AND it's better than bare knuckles. I have a few years of training in TKD and kick boxing but I don't think it is good enough to fight a younger and much bigger person, even if I learn other things, so what?

You are going to be in trouble regardless how you defend yourself, might as well try not be be beaten up first.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> I think the difficulty here is that he's trying to do all of this without the basics.    Not one of us, to my knowledge, have introduced any basics that he should train.  We pretty much try to answer the questions he has and he's not understanding a lot of it, because he doesn't have that foundation.
> 
> All of our statements have been based on our knowledge of other weapons and how we understand the basics can be applied to the cane.  We have just experienced the text book example of "There's no short path to learn this stuff."



Yeah. But not exactly the highest bar either. I mean ultimately he just needs to belt fools with the thing.


----------



## drop bear

wab25 said:


> I had a couple of thoughts. I read the first few pages... then got tied up at work... by the time I got back, there were quite a few pages to catch up on... I skimmed, so if someone beat me to these... sorry
> 
> First thought is the legal question. You do not need a cane. Watching these videos, and seeing how you move, you do not need one. You are in fact carrying the cane to be used as a weapon. In the event that you need to defend yourself, if it is caught on camera, it will be apparent that you do not need a cane, the way you are moving and striking with it. I would highly suggest, that you read and understand the law, where you are, about carrying and using weapons. If you travel, you should also know the laws for the places you go to. I am not trying to talk you out of the training, or the cane... just suggesting that there is more to prepare for than just taking out the bad guy. If you get attacked, and severely injure the other guy you could be looking at both criminal and civil trials. I would also bet that these threads here, with the videos of you training will be found and used. Understanding the law is very important, any time you carry any weapon at all.
> 
> Second thought... many people have suggested some form of grappling to add in, in case the distance gets closed or the cane gets grabbed. I am not a fan of tying the weapon to my wrist... the cane now becomes a great big handle for the bad guy to use to control me. What I would suggest, is to find a school that can teach you Hanbo. There are lots of grappling moves with the Hanbo, that will translate directly to your cane. Many are designed for the specific situation, where the bad guy grabs your stick or closes distance. The other point about Hanbo training, is that many of the techniques translate into many different weapons of opportunity: canes, sticks, clubs, rules, wrenches, pens, rolled up magazines, and cloth. Now you would not need to always have your cane, but just always know where the Hanbo'ish weapons are that are around you. This training will also give you a way to choke out, put down the bad guy, with out injury... which will help with the legal aspect.
> 
> Just some thoughts.



Every time I have tried to grapple with a stick I have wound up having to fight it off the guy.

Hitting is simpler.

And I think choke holds would be seen as worse than hitting someone. 

Of course a counter measure if they grab the stick is a good idea.


----------



## Alan0354

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But not exactly the highest bar either. I mean ultimately he just needs to belt fools with the thing.


The following is NOT talking against you, just responding to some that kept saying I never even learn the basics.

Funny that I don't think that many people even know CASTING that I am practicing and no body talked about body motion until Tony. Not to sound ungrateful, I saw a lot of video that provided are so basic like how to swing a stick and all the fancy moves. I absolutely NOT interested. If you call those basic, No thank you.

You are right, I am learning self defense in real life, not a stick competition, performance. My concentration is how to strike fast, how to strike hard, NOT how to block people with stick, weapon, fighting in competition or anything. It is laughable to see some video shown that the person swing, then turn around a full circle before continue striking. It is pretty, I have to give it to those. I stop watching the video the moment I saw that already. I am not interested in performing on stage.

No offense, compare Casting that Lamont Glass and body motion what Tony Dismukes talked about, to me, those are  HIGHER bar than those fancy stuffs that was shown in those videos. Same reason I spent MONTHS practicing just jab and reverse punch, concentrating on using legs, hips, shoulder to add force together. BUT at the same time, I laugh at those fancy katas. I never practice katas with all those unrealistic move that is absolutely useless. I looked for long time before I found a TKD school that was like kick boxing those days, no katas, no stupid things, just how to hit fast and how to hit hard.

Casting and body motion are ones I will spend months practicing them. These and smoother footwork is all I need at this point. My whole point of even practice with cane is because of all the attacks on older Chinese on the street. Not to go start a fight.


EDIT:
The only thing fancy that I do practice is moving around in deep horse stand with one leg forward bent and the back leg straight. Not that it is practical or useful, but it reduces pain on my knees and I find it help my balance with a stronger foundation. Actually that's what screwed me up on my first two videos in post #1 of this thread. I cannot use body motion with those deep stance and I messed up my body motion. Did not realize until I made those two videos. I since deleted those two videos from youtube already. I still practice the deep stance, but not swinging the stick, just walking around the room.


----------



## drop bear

Alan0354 said:


> The following is NOT talking against you, just responding to some that kept saying I never even learn the basics.
> 
> Funny that I don't think that many people even know CASTING that I am practicing and no body talked about body motion until Tony. Not to sound ungrateful, I saw a lot of video that provided are so basic like how to swing a stick and all the fancy moves. I absolutely NOT interested. If you call those basic, No thank you.
> 
> You are right, I am learning self defense in real life, not a stick competition, performance. My concentration is how to strike fast, how to strike hard, NOT how to block people with stick, weapon, fighting in competition or anything. It is laughable to see some video shown that the person swing, then turn around a full circle before continue striking. It is pretty, I have to give it to those. I stop watching the video the moment I saw that already. I am not interested in performing on stage.
> 
> No offense, compare Casting that Lamont Glass and body motion what Tony Dismukes talked about, to me, those are  HIGHER bar than those fancy stuffs that was shown in those videos. Same reason I spent MONTHS practicing just jab and reverse punch, concentrating on using legs, hips, shoulder to add force together. BUT at the same time, I laugh at those fancy katas. I never practice katas with all those unrealistic move that is absolutely useless. I looked for long time before I found a TKD school that was like kick boxing those days, no katas, no stupid things, just how to hit fast and how to hit hard.
> 
> Casting and body motion are ones I will spend months practicing them. These and smoother footwork is all I need at this point. My whole point of even practice with cane is because of all the attacks on older Chinese on the street. Not to go start a fight.
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> The only thing fancy that I do practice is moving around in deep horse stand with one leg forward bent and the back leg straight. Not that it is practical or useful, but it reduces pain on my knees and I find it help my balance with a stronger foundation. Actually that's what screwed me up on my first two videos in post #1 of this thread. I cannot use body motion with those deep stance and I messed up my body motion. Did not realize until I made those two videos. I since deleted those two videos from youtube already. I still practice the deep stance, but not swinging the stick, just walking around the room.



I was on line looking through stick sparring and they really only do about 2 or three things. And proficiency seems to be how well you can time them and game the other guy.


----------



## Alan0354

drop bear said:


> I was on line looking through stick sparring and they really only do about 2 or three things. And proficiency seems to be how well you can time them and game the other guy.


I totally agree, in real sparring and more in real fight, you only use very few effective moves. Less is more, practicing them over and over until it's natural.

I found very few stick fighting with two hands, that's one of the problem also. It's very different from single hand stick. I am too old to join a class, also I don't know of anywhere that teaches sticks with two hands. So I pretty much using my experience in TKD/kickboxing I learn back in the days to guide me. I know stick fight with two hands is completely different from Katana sword fight, so that's not my option either.

It's hard to learn timing if I don't have anyone to practice with. I asked my neighbor that is into Kung fu, but he doesn't want to do it. There is very few FMA school, I really don't want to learn any Chinese style ( even I am a Chinese) because I deem them too fancy and have no real life use. So I think my best bet is to learn how to hit as fast as I can and hit as hard as I can.

I believe in less is more, the simpler that better. So far, I only practice 4 strikes, two high and two low. Then thrusting (poking) with the tip of the cane from both sides. That's it. Just like I practice jab and reverse punch, simple front kicks, step kick to the knee and low round house kick to the leg. That's it. I only practice how to hit hard and move smoothly. None of those fancy blocking and fancy moves.

Hell, look at all those fancy moves on blocking and all then you look at the MMA and Boxing, they defend punching by simple* head movement and parrying*. You try to use those fancy defense, you'll get KO before you can even raise your hands. Why even spend one second learning those fancy stuffs. Hit hard, move away!!!

Makes me laugh when I saw those videos that taught using the hook of the cane to trap the arms, hook the neck and all those fancy moves. Total waste of time to even try those. Maybe good for in the movies.


----------



## drop bear

Alan0354 said:


> I totally agree, in real sparring and more in real fight, you only use very few effective moves. Less is more, practicing them over and over until it's natural.
> 
> I found very few stick fighting with two hands, that's one of the problem also. It's very different from single hand stick. I am too old to join a class, also I don't know of anywhere that teaches sticks with two hands. So I pretty much using my experience in TKD/kickboxing I learn back in the days to guide me. I know stick fight with two hands is completely different from Katana sword fight, so that's not my option either.
> 
> It's hard to learn timing if I don't have anyone to practice with. I asked my neighbor that is into Kung fu, but he doesn't want to do it. There is very few FMA school, I really don't want to learn any Chinese style ( even I am a Chinese) because I deem them too fancy and have no real life use. So I think my best bet is to learn how to hit as fast as I can and hit as hard as I can.
> 
> I believe in less is more, the simpler that better. So far, I only practice 4 strikes, two high and two low. Then thrusting (poking) with the tip of the cane from both sides. That's it. Just like I practice jab and reverse punch, simple front kicks, step kick to the knee and low round house kick to the leg. That's it. I only practice how to hit hard and move smoothly. None of those fancy blocking and fancy moves.
> 
> Hell, look at all those fancy moves on blocking and all then you look at the MMA and Boxing, they defend punching by simple* head movement and parrying*. You try to use those fancy defense, you'll get KO before you can even raise your hands. Why even spend one second learning those fancy stuffs. Hit hard, move away!!!
> 
> Makes me laugh when I saw those videos that taught using the hook of the cane to trap the arms, hook the neck and all those fancy moves. Total waste of time to even try those. Maybe good for in the movies.



Irish stick fighting?


----------



## dvcochran

Alan0354 said:


> I just want show I practice with arm close to body as if I am holding something in the armpit. I make sure this is my first set every morning to start. I still not comfortable with casting, I have to keep reminding myself to use the body to drive the swing. Give me more time before I make a video on casting.
> 
> Thanks for your post, it really helps. Funny that most of my sticks are too short now because I can swing a longer stick!! Or putting the rubber foot on to add weight at the tip. the only victim is my toe, because of the turning of the feet on the floor, the skin cracks and it's bleeding. I have to tape it up for practice.
> 
> Thanks


Have you wrestled in the past? Keeping the elbows tucked in is a very smart chicken wing defense. Not much worse than getting hooked. 
BTW, that is a serious sound system you have there.


----------



## Alan0354

drop bear said:


> Irish stick fighting?


Yes, I had look deep into Irish stick fighting. This is the first time I saw anyone using two hands just a little. My issue is they switch hands back and fore, they use a longer stick and do a lot of "jab" like strike and bounces the stick back by using the other end of the stick to hit the elbow or forearm to stop the forward swing and bounce the stick back.

I actually tried that, it is not convenient to use a cane that is asymmetric, you cannot bounce with a crook end reliably. also, if you switch hand, then the crook end will be the tip. Cane is also too short to switch hands and bounce the other end on the elbow. You can see in the video their sticks are usually like the walking stick(hiking stick) length, not walking cane length.

Thanks anyway.


I was thinking about you said more stick fight only use 2 or 3 moves. I was wondering why only 2 or 3. I counted 4, strike: From left or right to the head, strike left or right to the knees. That's 4 basic strikes. *Must be people don't strike the knee or legs*. I remember in the school, teacher told us not to strike the legs as it can injure the partner. There must be rules like that as striking the legs can really injure the opponent in sparring or even competitions.

I particularly concentrate on striking the knees as the first move. First, I really don't want to risk killing the guy by striking the head as I use a 20oz+ stick with two hands, not those 6oz escrima sticks with one hand. I have no intention to try to kill someone, I just want to slow him down by injuring his legs. If that doesn't work, then to the head. At least I try.

ALSO just as important. You guys talk about grabbing the cane, it's much harder to grab the cane if I strike low to the leg. At least I strike leg first, the natural response for the guy is to reach low to block, then the next strike is to the top while he tries to reach low for the cane.

I don't know I am right or not, but I do give a lot of thoughts to what I am doing, choosing to swing with two hands, hit knees as the first primary move. Forget blocking the opponent's stick, just concentrating on 4 basic strikes and 2 thrust(poking), and moving in and out. If you have any thoughts, let me know

Thanks


----------



## Alan0354

dvcochran said:


> Have you wrestled in the past? Keeping the elbows tucked in is a very smart chicken wing defense. Not much worse than getting hooked.
> BTW, that is a serious sound system you have there.


Thanks

Yes, I notice if I use the body right, I can keep my elbow close to the body to strike. I did remember you guys told me that my elbows are too far out. Now I understand. I never wrestled before, only Judo.

Thanks for noticing the sound system. I am very very into sound. I design my own power amp and preamp. I spend even more time on that than MA. Electronic design is my passion of life, I had a full career as EE and manager of EE. After I retired in 2005, I never stop. I even set up a lab in one of my rooms as a lab with all the test equipment. I always into audiophile, I decided to design power amp as it's the more challenge part of the system. I have friends brought their good power amps that are up to $4000 to $5000 and do blind tests( not knowing which amp is playing and judge the sound) and they all picked my amps are the best by a lot. I even have a Nakamichi PA7( improved version of Threshold S300 designed by the famous Nelson Pass of Pass Lab) and it's not even close.

My amps are all relatively low power, the black one is only 60W@8ohm, but it can drive down to below 2ohms@250W/ch. It is designed to drive hard to drive speakers. The harder the speakers, the more they shine. They are all high current design with the first 15 to 20W in class A.

I just bought the pair of speakers about 2 years ago, it's JM Lab Alto Utopia. I bought it used as the new equivalent ones are over $20K. I am cheap, I buy used ones for 1/3 the price. I never intended to go extravagant on speakers like this, I used to (still have) have a pair of JM Lab Spectral. But as I improved my amps, the amp out class the speakers, I have no choice to dish out the money to get the better pair. Sadly, it turns out because the old Spectral being 4ohm speaker, they are more critical to the amp than the Utopia that are 8ohms. You want to test amps, you need a pair of hard to drive speakers. I heard Martin Logan panel speakers are one of those.

Anyway, don't get me started on this, I can talk forever!!! I am currently design one that the cost of *parts alone* is $1500 each. Those older ones are only about $1000 each for parts. I do it the professional way, the inside of the amps look more expensive than those good amp on the market. No Micky Mouse, all printed circuit board, professional connectors, beefy wires................

Here are some pictures of my amps:












I believe the older people are, the more they need exercise. MA, stick fight and weight lifting are exercise for the body. THIS.....is my exercise of the brain. I even obtain a US Patent on noise cancellation for electric guitar in 2014. That's another story for a different time. I designed guitar amplifiers also!!!


----------



## drop bear

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, I had look deep into Irish stick fighting. This is the first time I saw anyone using two hands just a little. My issue is they switch hands back and fore, they use a longer stick and do a lot of "jab" like strike and bounces the stick back by using the other end of the stick to hit the elbow or forearm to stop the forward swing and bounce the stick back.
> 
> I actually tried that, it is not convenient to use a cane that is asymmetric, you cannot bounce with a crook end reliably. also, if you switch hand, then the crook end will be the tip. Cane is also too short to switch hands and bounce the other end on the elbow. You can see in the video their sticks are usually like the walking stick(hiking stick) length, not walking cane length.
> 
> Thanks anyway.
> 
> 
> I was thinking about you said more stick fight only use 2 or 3 moves. I was wondering why only 2 or 3. I counted 4, strike: From left or right to the head, strike left or right to the knees. That's 4 basic strikes. *Must be people don't strike the knee or legs*. I remember in the school, teacher told us not to strike the legs as it can injure the partner. There must be rules like that as striking the legs can really injure the opponent in sparring or even competitions.
> 
> I particularly concentrate on striking the knees as the first move. First, I really don't want to risk killing the guy by striking the head as I use a 20oz+ stick with two hands, not those 6oz escrima sticks with one hand. I have no intention to try to kill someone, I just want to slow him down by injuring his legs. If that doesn't work, then to the head. At least I try.
> 
> ALSO just as important. You guys talk about grabbing the cane, it's much harder to grab the cane if I strike low to the leg. At least I strike leg first, the natural response for the guy is to reach low to block, then the next strike is to the top while he tries to reach low for the cane.
> 
> I don't know I am right or not, but I do give a lot of thoughts to what I am doing, choosing to swing with two hands, hit knees as the first primary move. Forget blocking the opponent's stick, just concentrating on 4 basic strikes and 2 thrust(poking), and moving in and out. If you have any thoughts, let me know
> 
> Thanks



Shin. That will slow them down.

I thought the whole system was based on an asymmetric stick. They have a knob rather than a hook.






Otherwise la canne?





I mean in sparring it looks pretty much the same. But that should be telling you something as well.

This looks almost ludosports.


----------



## Alan0354

drop bear said:


> Shin. That will slow them down.
> 
> I thought the whole system was based on an asymmetric stick. They have a knob rather than a hook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Otherwise la canne?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean in sparring it looks pretty much the same. But that should be telling you something as well.
> 
> This looks almost ludosports.


I saw the first video for sure showing how they bounce the end of the stick on the forearm. I likely watched the last two videos. I went through a lot. Even they use asymmetric stick, it's with a symmetrical knob on one end use how you turn the stick is not important. For crook handle, you bounce in the off angle, it will not bounce predictably. I tried that and it hurts. You have to least a longer length at the back to bounce, cane is too short for that. You need a hiking stick to do that.

It's harder to strike shin because it's at the front. You have to step to the side to strike the shin.


----------



## Alan0354

wab25 said:


> I had a couple of thoughts. I read the first few pages... then got tied up at work... by the time I got back, there were quite a few pages to catch up on... I skimmed, so if someone beat me to these... sorry
> 
> First thought is the legal question. You do not need a cane. Watching these videos, and seeing how you move, you do not need one. You are in fact carrying the cane to be used as a weapon. In the event that you need to defend yourself, if it is caught on camera, it will be apparent that you do not need a cane, the way you are moving and striking with it. I would highly suggest, that you read and understand the law, where you are, about carrying and using weapons. If you travel, you should also know the laws for the places you go to. I am not trying to talk you out of the training, or the cane... just suggesting that there is more to prepare for than just taking out the bad guy. If you get attacked, and severely injure the other guy you could be looking at both criminal and civil trials. I would also bet that these threads here, with the videos of you training will be found and used. Understanding the law is very important, any time you carry any weapon at all.
> 
> Second thought... many people have suggested some form of grappling to add in, in case the distance gets closed or the cane gets grabbed. I am not a fan of tying the weapon to my wrist... the cane now becomes a great big handle for the bad guy to use to control me. What I would suggest, is to find a school that can teach you Hanbo. There are lots of grappling moves with the Hanbo, that will translate directly to your cane. Many are designed for the specific situation, where the bad guy grabs your stick or closes distance. The other point about Hanbo training, is that many of the techniques translate into many different weapons of opportunity: canes, sticks, clubs, rules, wrenches, pens, rolled up magazines, and cloth. Now you would not need to always have your cane, but just always know where the Hanbo'ish weapons are that are around you. This training will also give you a way to choke out, put down the bad guy, with out injury... which will help with the legal aspect.
> 
> Just some thoughts.


I forgot to mention, I want people to know I don't need the cane to walk. I never let the cane touch the ground and I walk with a bounce!!! I want to show people I don't use the cane to walk. It is kind of "Don't tread on me". I am not into fighting, if I can avoid a fight, if I can scare people so they don't attack me, it's a win. There's other easier target to pick on.


----------



## drop bear

Alan0354 said:


> I saw the first video for sure showing how they bounce the end of the stick on the forearm. I likely watched the last two videos. I went through a lot. Even they use asymmetric stick, it's with a symmetrical knob on one end use how you turn the stick is not important. For crook handle, you bounce in the off angle, it will not bounce predictably. I tried that and it hurts. You have to least a longer length at the back to bounce, cane is too short for that. You need a hiking stick to do that.
> 
> It's harder to strike shin because it's at the front. You have to step to the side to strike the shin.



Crook towards you?


----------



## Alan0354

drop bear said:


> Crook towards you?


First and foremost, the crook cane is too short. In order to bounce on the forearm or elbow, you have to leave a long section of the cane at the back. Then the cane will be way too short at the front for hitting. eg. You can see they leave about 12" behind, for a 32" cane, you only have 20" at the front. That's way to short for hitting as shown here, this is a 32" cane, see how short the front is?




As for the crook end turning, It's hard to predict when you switch back and fore. When you switch hands, the cane rotate a little every time. I used to use the hook to "punch" the heavy bag, but I found it can rotate a little and it will turn upon contact and totally lost power. I don't do that anymore.

Also Irish stick fight keep switching hands, if I switch hand, the crook will be the tip and it create a different set of problems. Ideally, I would hit with the tip of the hook away from the target and use the back of the handle. But as I said, the hook rotate as to swing around and it's hard to control that.

Third but just as important, the hook end is a whole lot heavier, it's too heavy for one hand as the momentum is very high with tip heavy. I barely can swing the cane with both hands using the hook end as the tip, never mind using one hand.




I did give Irish style a good try, it's not even close to be comfortable.

Thanks


----------



## dvcochran

Alan0354 said:


> Thanks
> 
> Yes, I notice if I use the body right, I can keep my elbow close to the body to strike. I did remember you guys told me that my elbows are too far out. Now I understand. I never wrestled before, only Judo.
> 
> Thanks for noticing the sound system. I am very very into sound. I design my own power amp and preamp. I spend even more time on that than MA. Electronic design is my passion of life, I had a full career as EE and manager of EE. After I retired in 2005, I never stop. I even set up a lab in one of my rooms as a lab with all the test equipment. I always into audiophile, I decided to design power amp as it's the more challenge part of the system. I have friends brought their good power amps that are up to $4000 to $5000 and do blind tests( not knowing which amp is playing and judge the sound) and they all picked my amps are the best by a lot. I even have a Nakamichi PA7( improved version of Threshold S300 designed by the famous Nelson Pass of Pass Lab) and it's not even close.
> 
> My amps are all relatively low power, the black one is only 60W@8ohm, but it can drive down to below 2ohms@250W/ch. It is designed to drive hard to drive speakers. The harder the speakers, the more they shine. They are all high current design with the first 15 to 20W in class A.
> 
> I just bought the pair of speakers about 2 years ago, it's JM Lab Alto Utopia. I bought it used as the new equivalent ones are over $20K. I am cheap, I buy used ones for 1/3 the price. I never intended to go extravagant on speakers like this, I used to (still have) have a pair of JM Lab Spectral. But as I improved my amps, the amp out class the speakers, I have no choice to dish out the money to get the better pair. Sadly, it turns out because the old Spectral being 4ohm speaker, they are more critical to the amp than the Utopia that are 8ohms. You want to test amps, you need a pair of hard to drive speakers. I heard Martin Logan panel speakers are one of those.
> 
> Anyway, don't get me started on this, I can talk forever!!! I am currently design one that the cost of *parts alone* is $1500 each. Those older ones are only about $1000 each for parts. I do it the professional way, the inside of the amps look more expensive than those good amp on the market. No Micky Mouse, all printed circuit board, professional connectors, beefy wires................
> 
> Here are some pictures of my amps:
> View attachment 27915View attachment 27916
> 
> View attachment 27918
> 
> 
> I believe the older people are, the more they need exercise. MA, stick fight and weight lifting are exercise for the body. THIS.....is my exercise of the brain. I even obtain a US Patent on noise cancellation for electric guitar in 2014. That's another story for a different time. I designed guitar amplifiers also!!!


Very cool.
We again are somewhat similar. I have Master degrees in Electrical Engineering and Engineering Management. I took the control path instead of power however. I have a business that does control, automation, and integration, primarily in the industrial and municipal segments.


----------



## Alan0354

dvcochran said:


> Very cool.
> We again are somewhat similar. I have Master degrees in Electrical Engineering and Engineering Management. I took the control path instead of power however. I have a business that does control, automation, and integration, primarily in the industrial and municipal segments.


Electronics is my passion and hobby. I never have formal education on EE, my degree is in Chemistry. But I never even try to get a job in the field. I studied all on my own throughout the years and I really never stop studying until just a few years ago(way after I retired). I studied things to post grad level including Electromagnetics, advance calculus all on my own. 

I started out doing control and programming in the late 70s designing control units with 8085, 8086 and later dedicated processor like HC11 etc. I switched to analog and IC design in the 80s because I realize the hardware and firming keep changing and I would have to keep learning over and over. So I migrated to analog design and even moved into analog IC design. I was intrigued by high speed circuitry, so I got more and more involved in RF. I change field by changing jobs and learn different things. Like working for LeCroy(digital scopes) to Exar(IC design) to Seimens( Ultrasound medical scanner) to Mass Spectrometer before I became more settled down. Even in 2000, I ventured out to Telecom designing high speed SONET communication and then to Military contracting.

I never got tired of electronics and RF, going to work was mostly a fun day for me. I retired early because I have other interest(real estate). But I never stopped. actually I never got into audio until I retired. First designing guitar amps and guitar electronics I even got a patent in 2014 on noise cancellation for guitar:
US8704074B1 - Pickup system for stringed musical instruments comprises of non-humbucking pickups with noise cancelling by current injection          - Google Patents

I never even try to get into business as there's no money in the field and is hard work to go into business. You should know, it sounds glamorous, but it's slave labor!!! I just enjoy inventing stuffs. I have two other patent, this one solely mine:
US7561438B1 - Electronic device incorporating a multilayered capacitor formed on a printed circuit board          - Google Patents

This one is with 5 other people:
US Patent for Mass spectrometer detector and system and method using the same Patent (Patent #  11,183,377 issued November 23, 2021) - Justia Patents Search

I also published two papers in America Institution of Physics, Review of Scientific Instruments:
Reduced electron multiplier dead time in ion counting mass spectrometry

Cookie Absent

I have some idea on hifi power amps, I am still thinking about whether to pursue something.....Not for business.........There's no money in extreme high end audio market.

My life is driven by hobby and passion, I don't believe in working in a job I don't love.


----------



## Alan0354

drop bear said:


> Crook towards you?


Hi

I actually played with the bouncing the cane on the forearm of Irish stick fighting. You mentioned a few times, I owe it to myself to give it one more try with open mind. Only thing I am interested is the jabbing like with the cane bouncing on the forearm to pull the cane back. The others are similar enough to Filipino escrima. Switching hands is definitely impossible, BUT just do it with the right hand is definitely possible. It should be faster than striking with two hands like what I am doing. It is really a jab like boxing. Don't expect to hit hard, just fast. You throw the stick literally like jabbing and let the other end of the cane stop by the forearm and bounce the cane back and ready for the second strike. I am going to see whether I can incorporate into my training. We'll see.

The reason you cannot switch hands is because when you bounce with the right hand, the crook end has to face forward. BUT when you switch hand, you have to turn the crook around so crook end face back to you.  You cannot strike with the crook end towards the opponent because unless it is perfectly perpendicular, the cane will rotate upon hitting the opponent and you lose most of the power. Worst is to catch something and pull the cane off your hand. Look at the two pictures in post #150 where the crook end pointing at in each hand and you will understand what I mean that I have rotate the cane 180deg every time I switch hand.

I have to practice for a while to determine whether it's worth incorporating into my training. There are still question how reliable I can bounce the end on my forearm. If I miss, the cane will keep swinging off my hand. One thing good is I notice I don't have to have 12" at the back, I have to see after I practice for a while. It will be a challenge to make sure the cane bounce on the forearm. I notice I miss the forearm a lot.

Thanks


----------



## dvcochran

Alan0354 said:


> Electronics is my passion and hobby. I never have formal education on EE, my degree is in Chemistry. But I never even try to get a job in the field. I studied all on my own throughout the years and I really never stop studying until just a few years ago(way after I retired). I studied things to post grad level including Electromagnetics, advance calculus all on my own.
> 
> I started out doing control and programming in the late 70s designing control units with 8085, 8086 and later dedicated processor like HC11 etc. I switched to analog and IC design in the 80s because I realize the hardware and firming keep changing and I would have to keep learning over and over. So I migrated to analog design and even moved into analog IC design. I was intrigued by high speed circuitry, so I got more and more involved in RF. I change field by changing jobs and learn different things. Like working for LeCroy(digital scopes) to Exar(IC design) to Seimens( Ultrasound medical scanner) to Mass Spectrometer before I became more settled down. Even in 2000, I ventured out to Telecom designing high speed SONET communication and then to Military contracting.
> 
> I never got tired of electronics and RF, going to work was mostly a fun day for me. I retired early because I have other interest(real estate). But I never stopped. actually I never got into audio until I retired. First designing guitar amps and guitar electronics I even got a patent in 2014 on noise cancellation for guitar:
> US8704074B1 - Pickup system for stringed musical instruments comprises of non-humbucking pickups with noise cancelling by current injection          - Google Patents
> 
> I never even try to get into business as there's no money in the field and is hard work to go into business. You should know, it sounds glamorous, but it's slave labor!!! I just enjoy inventing stuffs. I have two other patent, this one solely mine:
> US7561438B1 - Electronic device incorporating a multilayered capacitor formed on a printed circuit board          - Google Patents
> 
> This one is with 5 other people:
> US Patent for Mass spectrometer detector and system and method using the same Patent (Patent #  11,183,377 issued November 23, 2021) - Justia Patents Search
> 
> I also published two papers in America Institution of Physics, Review of Scientific Instruments:
> Reduced electron multiplier dead time in ion counting mass spectrometry
> 
> Cookie Absent
> 
> I have some idea on hifi power amps, I am still thinking about whether to pursue something.....Not for business.........There's no money in extreme high end audio market.
> 
> My life is driven by hobby and passion, I don't believe in working in a job I don't love.


I Love this post! And the passion that is clearly present in your work. 8086 and 8088 is as far back as I can go. 

From what you describe, you are at more of the circuit level than I usually am. 
In the '80's there were a number of Siemen's A/C output boards that commonly failed and were able to get the schematic from Siemen's. It was usually a simple board relay that failed due to current overload. As they failed, we would replace them with a higher current relay and the problem would not reoccur.

In a typical build, we are at the component level. Of course, this comes after the design phase which is where I am heavily involved. The majority of our projects start at the capital budget phase, which allows me to have a lot of control and autonomy in the project. 

In years past, I have had 3 patents for intellectual property/utility which I never paid the renewal fees on and have passed the 20-year expiration. Crowing rights that I seldom bring up.

I see a Lot of RF and some mass spectrometry in measurement. Particularly in materials with varying density. 
Analog is still living large in the industrial world, especially on older systems. Most scalar capable devices have gone digital for some time (VFD's . motion, etc...). I always consider it somewhat odd how few sound-specific devices I have ever worked with. I work with the effects of sound a good bit (sonar) however.


----------



## wab25

Alan0354 said:


> I forgot to mention, I want people to know I don't need the cane to walk. I never let the cane touch the ground and I walk with a bounce!!! I want to show people I don't use the cane to walk. It is kind of "Don't tread on me". I am not into fighting, if I can avoid a fight, if I can scare people so they don't attack me, it's a win. There's other easier target to pick on.


You miss understood what I was saying. I was not saying don't carry your cane or don't train.... I was saying learn the local law, concerning carrying weapons. Laws around weapons are different, depending on where you are and they are particular. They have also sent people to jail, who did not understand the particulars of the law.


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> Irish stick fighting?


I know these guys.  Decent folks.


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, I had look deep into Irish stick fighting. This is the first time I saw anyone using two hands just a little.


It shows up some, historically speaking.  Longhurst certainly describes a two-handed grip in his 1919 shillelagh text.  It shows two-handed swings and bayonet-style jabs.  While bayonet-style thrusts show up elsewhere from time-to-time but it is mostly described as one-handed use in period manuals, descriptions, and artwork, as well as in "living traditions."




Alan0354 said:


> My issue is they switch hands back and fore, they use a longer stick and do a lot of "jab" like strike and bounces the stick back by using the other end of the stick to hit the elbow or forearm to stop the forward swing and bounce the stick back.


Perfectly valid technique.




Alan0354 said:


> I actually tried that, it is not convenient to use a cane that is asymmetric, you cannot bounce with a crook end reliably.


No offense intended but, if you're having problems with that technique, then you're misunderstanding something or misapplying something when you try it.




Alan0354 said:


> also, if you switch hand, then the crook end will be the tip.


So?  It's pretty common to use the tip-end to strike and hold the crook-end, and it's equally common to hold the tip-end and strike/hook with the crook end.  Examples include Wittman's Footpad and the Cane shillelagh instructional from 1905 and Cunningham's 1912 crooked-cane manual.




Alan0354 said:


> Cane is also too short to switch hands and bounce the other end on the elbow.


Not really.




Alan0354 said:


> You can see in the video their sticks are usually like the walking stick(hiking stick) length, not walking cane length.


In this clip, they're using a stick based on the "shillalah" 1890 Allanson-Winn manual, which is described as 4 feet.  Basically jo length.  Other traditions use shorter, "cane length" walking-sticks.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> Shin. That will slow them down.
> 
> I thought the whole system was based on an asymmetric stick. They have a knob rather than a hook.


Historically speaking, frequently but not always.  Usually a "shillelagh" ("bata") when represented as a walking stick was a knob-ended cane-length stick of oak, ash, hazel, or blackthorn.   The knob was either the crook from a branch or the root ball from a sapling.  However, some traditions refer to a symmetric stick with no knob.




drop bear said:


>


Doyle's system is considered markedly different from the typical one-haned "shillelagh" systems it is said to be contemporary with.  Even when those one-handed systems use two hands, it looked different from Doyle's "Uisce Beatha Bata Rince" (ims "Whisky Stick Dance").




drop bear said:


> Otherwise la canne?


Vigny's la Canne system is markedly different from both Doyle's system and from every historic "shillelagh" system I'm aware of, both in how the stick is held and the typical guard positions, and moving on from there to how strikes are performed.  They're different.




drop bear said:


> I mean in sparring it looks pretty much the same. But that should be telling you something as well.
> 
> This looks almost ludosports.


Canne de Combat is, again, different from any of the above.


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> First and foremost, the crook cane is too short. In order to bounce on the forearm or elbow, you have to leave a long section of the cane at the back. Then the cane will be way too short at the front for hitting. eg. You can see they leave about 12" behind, for a 32" cane, you only have 20" at the front. That's way to short for hitting as shown here, this is a 32" cane, see how short the front is?


Both my training and my experience are different.  This grip does not make the stick "too short for hitting" any more than an escrima stick or a police truncheon is "too short for hitting."  No, you are not using the full length for hitting.  But it's not "too short."  This uses the weapon different from what you expect.




Alan0354 said:


> View attachment 27920
> 
> As for the crook end turning, It's hard to predict when you switch back and fore. When you switch hands, the cane rotate a little every time. I used to use the hook to "punch" the heavy bag, but I found it can rotate a little and it will turn upon contact and totally lost power. I don't do that anymore.


That's because, frankly, you shouldn't do any of those things with a "1/3 Irish Grip" and a crooked cane.  If you want to hold the cane at the crook end, I recommend something more like the Cunningham method.




Alan0354 said:


> Also Irish stick fight keep switching hands,


Some styles do but most have a preference for one-handed use.




Alan0354 said:


> if I switch hand, the crook will be the tip and it create a different set of problems. Ideally, I would hit with the tip of the hook away from the target and use the back of the handle. But as I said, the hook rotate as to swing around and it's hard to control that.


Honestly, this is because you are trying to be self-taught.  You don't know what the advantages and disadvantages are, nor how to perform the technique, never-mind how to take full advantage of it.

I'm not trying to be cruel or arrogant here, but, frankly you just don't know what you're talking about.  I have experience in these styles and can tell that you are starting with inaccurate assumptions, fumbling about, and getting stuff getting stuff flat wrong.




Alan0354 said:


> Third but just as important, the hook end is a whole lot heavier, it's too heavy for one hand as the momentum is very high with tip heavy.


Absolutely 100% wrong.  I do it all the time and I know lots of others people who do as well.  I know that you might be thinking, "well the crook adds more weight so..." but still no.  I often use a knobbed cane-length stick where the knob is drilled and "loaded" with lead (also a historically accurate practice).  



Alan0354 said:


> I barely can swing the cane with both hands using the hook end as the tip, never mind using one hand.
> View attachment 27921


You are doing it wrong.  Sorry, but there is simply no other way around it.




Alan0354 said:


> I did give Irish style a good try,


No, you didn't.  I'm sure you thought you did and I'm sure you think you understand the mechanics, technique, and strategies, but it's pretty clear that you missed several fundamental points.

I forget where you're at but maybe I can put you in touch with someone who could teach you.  Unless, of course, you're still wedded to the idea of being self-taught.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> Hi
> 
> I actually played with the bouncing the cane on the forearm of Irish stick fighting. You mentioned a few times, I owe it to myself to give it one more try with open mind. Only thing I am interested is the jabbing like with the cane bouncing on the forearm to pull the cane back. The others are similar enough to Filipino escrima. Switching hands is definitely impossible, BUT just do it with the right hand is definitely possible. It should be faster than striking with two hands like what I am doing. It is really a jab like boxing. Don't expect to hit hard, just fast. You throw the stick literally like jabbing and let the other end of the cane stop by the forearm and bounce the cane back and ready for the second strike. I am going to see whether I can incorporate into my training. We'll see.
> 
> The reason you cannot switch hands is because when you bounce with the right hand, the crook end has to face forward. BUT when you switch hand, you have to turn the crook around so crook end face back to you.  You cannot strike with the crook end towards the opponent because unless it is perfectly perpendicular, the cane will rotate upon hitting the opponent and you lose most of the power. Worst is to catch something and pull the cane off your hand. Look at the two pictures in post #150 where the crook end pointing at in each hand and you will understand what I mean that I have rotate the cane 180deg every time I switch hand.
> 
> I have to practice for a while to determine whether it's worth incorporating into my training. There are still question how reliable I can bounce the end on my forearm. If I miss, the cane will keep swinging off my hand. One thing good is I notice I don't have to have 12" at the back, I have to see after I practice for a while. It will be a challenge to make sure the cane bounce on the forearm. I notice I miss the forearm a lot.
> 
> Thanks


You don't "bounce" it.  That's not what it's for or how it's used.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> I am too old to join a class


Mule muffins!  I've taught people in their late 70's.




Alan0354 said:


> also I don't know of anywhere that teaches sticks with two hands.


You can't find some place that teaches Hanbo or Jo?  Or WWII Fairbairn stick "Combatives?"  Look harder.











Alan0354 said:


> So I pretty much using my experience in TKD/kickboxing I learn back in the days to guide me. I know stick fight with two hands is completely different from Katana sword fight,


Except when it isn't.




Alan0354 said:


> It's hard to learn timing if I don't have anyone to practice with. I asked my neighbor that is into Kung fu, but he doesn't want to do it. There is very few FMA school, I really don't want to learn any Chinese style ( even I am a Chinese) because I deem them too fancy and have no real life use. So I think my best bet is to learn how to hit as fast as I can and hit as hard as I can.
> 
> I believe in less is more, the simpler that better. So far, I only practice 4 strikes, two high and two low. Then thrusting (poking) with the tip of the cane from both sides. That's it. Just like I practice jab and reverse punch, simple front kicks, step kick to the knee and low round house kick to the leg. That's it. I only practice how to hit hard and move smoothly. None of those fancy blocking and fancy moves.
> 
> Hell, look at all those fancy moves on blocking and all then you look at the MMA and Boxing, they defend punching by simple* head movement and parrying*. You try to use those fancy defense, you'll get KO before you can even raise your hands. Why even spend one second learning those fancy stuffs. Hit hard, move away!!!
> 
> Makes me laugh when I saw those videos that taught using the hook of the cane to trap the arms, hook the neck and all those fancy moves. Total waste of time to even try those. Maybe good for in the movies.


Based on your vast experience stick fighting?

I wanted to let you know that I don't have any sort of Electrical Engineering background, never mind a degree, but I want to engineer, design, and build my own superior home sound system.  I found a few yoo-toob videos that I didn't really understand, but I think I can figure it out.  After all, how hard can it be?

Look, you don't know what does and does not work.  Stop trying to guess and go get instruction.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Alan0354

wab25 said:


> You miss understood what I was saying. I was not saying don't carry your cane or don't train.... I was saying learn the local law, concerning carrying weapons. Laws around weapons are different, depending on where you are and they are particular. They have also sent people to jail, who did not understand the particulars of the law.


If you are law abiding citizen and established in life, you will be in trouble with the law if you get into a fight regardless. At the least is a civil suit. People can get away if they already have long wrap sheets and has nothing under their name and is judgement proofed. You read the law, everything is illegal unless you don't fight back. Even if it is legal, they can still try to get you. Look at the McCloskeys got into so much trouble just trying to defend their home IN their own property!!! You don't want to get into trouble, don't fight back unless you have nothing to lose.


----------



## drop bear

lklawson said:


> Historically speaking, frequently but not always.  Usually a "shillelagh" ("bata") when represented as a walking stick was a knob-ended cane-length stick of oak, ash, hazel, or blackthorn.   The knob was either the crook from a branch or the root ball from a sapling.  However, some traditions refer to a symmetric stick with no knob.
> 
> 
> 
> Doyle's system is considered markedly different from the typical one-haned "shillelagh" systems it is said to be contemporary with.  Even when those one-handed systems use two hands, it looked different from Doyle's "Uisce Beatha Bata Rince" (ims "Whisky Stick Dance").
> 
> 
> 
> Vigny's la Canne system is markedly different from both Doyle's system and from every historic "shillelagh" system I'm aware of, both in how the stick is held and the typical guard positions, and moving on from there to how strikes are performed.  They're different.
> 
> 
> 
> Canne de Combat is, again, different from any of the above.



The systems are different. The sparring looks pretty similar. 

If we were trying to condense mabye a few practical ideas. That is where I would be looking.


----------



## Alan0354

dvcochran said:


> I Love this post! And the passion that is clearly present in your work. 8086 and 8088 is as far back as I can go.
> 
> From what you describe, you are at more of the circuit level than I usually am.
> In the '80's there were a number of Siemen's A/C output boards that commonly failed and were able to get the schematic from Siemen's. It was usually a simple board relay that failed due to current overload. As they failed, we would replace them with a higher current relay and the problem would not reoccur.
> 
> In a typical build, we are at the component level. Of course, this comes after the design phase which is where I am heavily involved. The majority of our projects start at the capital budget phase, which allows me to have a lot of control and autonomy in the project.
> 
> In years past, I have had 3 patents for intellectual property/utility which I never paid the renewal fees on and have passed the 20-year expiration. Crowing rights that I seldom bring up.
> 
> I see a Lot of RF and some mass spectrometry in measurement. Particularly in materials with varying density.
> Analog is still living large in the industrial world, especially on older systems. Most scalar capable devices have gone digital for some time (VFD's . motion, etc...). I always consider it somewhat odd how few sound-specific devices I have ever worked with. I work with the effects of sound a good bit (sonar) however.


Actually a lot of my stuffs are system. One of my paper on the Fast RAE is a whole concept. We even got a phase II SBIR grant from the government to build the product. Two of the patents with the company are system level, in fact is more mechanically oriented than electronics. One is how to eliminate numerous mechanical springs, screws by using a very fancy pcb to form the whole dector. It's a like 32 layer pcb that combine RF and high voltage into one unit. The latest patent was a mechanical railing system in putting 6 different arms concentrate in a very small area with low noise, RF, high voltage all confined into a tiny space. I actually had to draw out my idea and have a mechanical engineer put it into Auto CAD to build them.

One thing, even I was the manager of EE, I layout all my boards. I cannot say enough how important is PCB layout in critical mixed signal RF, control circuitry. Particular with high voltage......I am talking about over 10KV. The war usually won or lost in the PCB layout.

One thing I regret not doing is designing SMPS. I let my engineer design all those. Now that I am alone, I really want to use switchers for my amps, but I have no one to do it for me. I might just stop and learn how to design one as a challenge one day. Those stupid big transformers and capacitors are big, heavy and expensive!!!


----------



## Alan0354

drop bear said:


> The systems are different. The sparring looks pretty similar.
> 
> If we were trying to condense mabye a few practical ideas. That is where I would be looking.


I look at things very simple, if it is too complicate, it likely is!!! BUT, I am sure there are "magic" somewhere.

I practice the "jabbing", it's doable, but believe me, the forearm gets painful after a while. And you know I punch pole and all that already!!! Maybe because my cane is heavy. Or maybe I have not learn the magic yet.

It's funny, people have all the big talk, but when they fight, they all look the same. Things gets very simple. BUT what do I know, I am just a self taught beginner.


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> If you are law abiding citizen and established in life, you will be in trouble with the law if you get into a fight regardless. At the least is a civil suit.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  The local authorities have a lot of discretion.  Some may choose to charge but the evidence is that many do not.




Alan0354 said:


> People can get away if they already have long wrap sheets and has nothing under their name and is judgement proofed. You read the law, everything is illegal unless you don't fight back.


Again, local authorities may choose to charge but they may not.  They do a cost-benefit analysis on.  This may include things like "political benefits" but it may not.



Alan0354 said:


> Even if it is legal, they can still try to get you. Look at the McCloskeys got into so much trouble just trying to defend their home IN their own property!!! You don't want to get into trouble, don't fight back unless you have nothing to lose.


They were stupid.


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> I look at things very simple, if it is too complicate, it likely is!!! BUT, I am sure there are "magic" somewhere.


You don't have the experience or training to know what is too complicated and what is not.




Alan0354 said:


> It's funny, people have all the big talk, but when they fight, they all look the same. Things gets very simple. BUT what do I know, I am just a self taught beginner.


Exactly.  You don't know because you have no experience and no training.  Would you trust a person who's been teaching himself Electrical Engineering for 3 months to lay out high-end stereo equipment?  Would you expect someone who says he's only ever wrestled around with his brothers when he was a kid to place a local BJJ tourney?  Would you expect someone who just used to put on gloves and mess around in the back yard with his friends when he was young to not get his block knocked off in a Boxing tournament?

Of course not.

You currently have the equivalent of watching Macho Man Randy Savage on TV and the expectation of being able to walk into a BJJ or Judo club and not be humiliated.

Go get training.


----------



## drop bear

Alan0354 said:


> I look at things very simple, if it is too complicate, it likely is!!! BUT, I am sure there are "magic" somewhere.
> 
> I practice the "jabbing", it's doable, but believe me, the forearm gets painful after a while. And you know I punch pole and all that already!!! Maybe because my cane is heavy. Or maybe I have not learn the magic yet.
> 
> It's funny, people have all the big talk, but when they fight, they all look the same. Things gets very simple. BUT what do I know, I am just a self taught beginner.



Yeah. Look if someone came along with demonstrative ability I would certainly listen to them. And if you can find a guy like that it would definitely be worth your time.

But the issue with stick fighting is there is a lot more hypothesis, academic studies and drills rather than just beating up on each other. So it is a hard resource to take from.


----------



## Rich Parsons

lklawson said:


> ...
> 
> You currently have the equivalent of watching Macho Man Randy Savage on TV and the expectation of being able to walk into a BJJ or Judo club and not be humiliated.
> 
> Go get training.



To Support LKLawson,

I probably would get humiliated in either of those clubs as that not where my expertise lies, and I have experience and training in other areas and a little training in the areas for those two styles of clubs.


----------



## Alan0354

lklawson said:


> Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  The local authorities have a lot of discretion.  Some may choose to charge but the evidence is that many do not.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, local authorities may choose to charge but they may not.  They do a cost-benefit analysis on.  This may include things like "political benefits" but it may not.
> 
> 
> They were stupid.


How are they stupid? They stood in their own lawn trying to defend their home from invasion. It is legal in every state.

Problem is the local DA are all gunning for the law abiding citizens and determine to let the thugs go. Watch the news


----------



## Alan0354

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Look if someone came along with demonstrative ability I would certainly listen to them. And if you can find a guy like that it would definitely be worth your time.
> 
> But the issue with stick fighting is there is a lot more hypothesis, academic studies and drills rather than just beating up on each other. So it is a hard resource to take from.


There's a huge disconnect between academic and real life. Just look at the stick fight on youtube...........Hell bare knuckle fights. Can you really tell the style? To me, the key is to cut the BS and sort out something that is really useful.

I still think bouncing off the forearm has some merit. We'll see.


----------



## Dirty Dog

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Remove the political debate from your future posts, or take them HERE instead.

Mark A. Cochran
@Dirty Dog 
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> How are they stupid? They stood in their own lawn trying to defend their home from invasion. It is legal in every state.


[edit - in an attempt to keep with Staff directives, I'll try to keep the discussion out of the politics and try to keep it within how to not break laws and how to remain legal during self defense]

There is zero evidence that their home was in any danger of "invasion."  They went out of their curtilage and on to the lawn to meet the supposed threat.  Tactically, it is far better to bunker.  Take a defensive position and improve it (sound familiar?).  Then they verbally engaged the crowd, most of which did not trespass on their personal property.  In most states, you lose Castle protections when you leave the curtilage area (which they should both have known, being lawyers).  Both McCloskeys repeatedly pointed their guns at people who were not an immediate threat (which is pretty much illegal in every state).  Parenthetically, she also had terrible trigger discipline.  There are other examples of how they were stupid, but that should be enough.






While most of what they did was not illegal under MO state law (excepting pointing their guns at people who were arguably not an immediate threat of deadly force), they were stupid.




Alan0354 said:


> Problem is the local DA are all gunning for the law abiding citizens and determine to let the thugs go.


[edit - removing political discussion]




Alan0354 said:


> Watch the news


Read some SD and use of force experts.  Start with Andrew Branca and Mass Ayoob.


----------



## Alan0354

lklawson said:


> [edit - in an attempt to keep with Staff directives, I'll try to keep the discussion out of the politics and try to keep it within how to not break laws and how to remain legal during self defense]
> 
> There is zero evidence that their home was in any danger of "invasion."  They went out of their curtilage and on to the lawn to meet the supposed threat.  Tactically, it is far better to bunker.  Take a defensive position and improve it (sound familiar?).  Then they verbally engaged the crowd, most of which did not trespass on their personal property.  In most states, you lose Castle protections when you leave the curtilage area (which they should both have known, being lawyers).  Both McCloskeys repeatedly pointed their guns at people who were not an immediate threat (which is pretty much illegal in every state).  Parenthetically, she also had terrible trigger discipline.  There are other examples of how they were stupid, but that should be enough.
> 
> 
> View attachment 27924
> 
> While most of what they did was not illegal under MO state law (excepting pointing their guns at people who were arguably not an immediate threat of deadly force), they were stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> [edit - removing political discussion]
> 
> 
> 
> Read some SD and use of force experts.  Start with Andrew Branca and Mass Ayoob.


Let's drop this, I don't want the thread to be closed.


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> Let's drop this, I don't want the thread to be closed.


If we keep it to what is and is not legal and out of politics, we should be fine.


----------



## Alan0354

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Look if someone came along with demonstrative ability I would certainly listen to them. And if you can find a guy like that it would definitely be worth your time.
> 
> But the issue with stick fighting is there is a lot more hypothesis, academic studies and drills rather than just beating up on each other. So it is a hard resource to take from.


Also regarding of switching hands with crook cane. There is scientific reason why you cannot hit with the head of the crook reliably. See the drawings below:



Think of the long end of the cane is coming out of the paper(the round circle with a "X"). the circle with a "dot" is the head of the crook.

Fig.A shows the plane of the crook cane is perpendicular to the surface to be hit and light blue line is the direction of travel of the cane. You can see this can hit hard.

Problem is if you switch around from hand to hand, can you be sure you can keep the plane of the crook( red line) perpendicular to the surface?

Fig. B shows if the plane of the crook cane is NOT perpendicular to the surface. It shows the direction of the hit.

Fig. C shows the moment the head of the crook contact the surface, it will FORCE the cane to ROTATE as shown. This serves as brake or cushion to slow the cane down and reduce the force tremendously.

Yes, in theory, you can use the head of the crook to hit and it should work. BUT in real life, you'd be lucky if you can get the cane perpendicular 50% of the time(if that!!).

then you have to pay attention where the head of the crook is all the time. This is absolutely impractical in real life. This is where it's good on theory BUT FAIL in real life.


*This is science.* I gave all these a lot of thoughts. Of cause, unless there's magic some where.



Things should be very simple if it works. To me, the simplest way of hitting with a cane is to hit with the cane in a straight line!!! The shortest distance from point A to B is the straight line!!! You just need to get there fast and hit hard!!! How to do that is what matters. That's where Casting and body movement comes into play. That, will take time to practice. I expect to spend months on these two. Forget all the fancy stuffs. 4 strikes and 2 thrusting. The rest is how to close the distance to strike, then move out of the way after striking.
*
Yes, I agree, if someone can show me in real competition that they can use all those fancy stuffs, I am more than willing to be wrong and to learn. Just show me, don't talk.*


----------



## wab25

Alan0354 said:


> If you are law abiding citizen and established in life, you will be in trouble with the law if you get into a fight regardless. At the least is a civil suit. People can get away if they already have long wrap sheets and has nothing under their name and is judgement proofed. You read the law, everything is illegal unless you don't fight back. Even if it is legal, they can still try to get you. Look at the McCloskeys got into so much trouble just trying to defend their home IN their own property!!! You don't want to get into trouble, don't fight back unless you have nothing to lose.


I'll do this once more and then drop it... I am not the one that could be facing jail time over this.

You are carrying a weapon. You have admitted it here and even claim you hope to intimidate people by not even using it as a cane when you walk. (you are hoping that they see you as armed, and move on to an easier victim)

I think you should know a few things about the local law where you are...
1. Legally, are you carrying a concealed weapon or are you carrying an open weapon?
2. Is the way you are carrying the weapon (concealed or open) a felony or misdemeanor?
3. Is the weapon you are carrying considered a lethal weapon? If so, when exactly are you allowed to respond with lethal force?

I believe that anyone wanting to carry a weapon should educate themselves on the laws local to the area that they will be carrying the weapon. Not knowing and not understanding the law is not a great defense in court.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> But the issue with stick fighting is there is a lot more hypothesis, academic studies and drills rather than just beating up on each other. So it is a hard resource to take from.


If you understand the basics then you can easily weed out the unrealistic stuff.  I find that most people who see a lot of "Fancy" in martial arts are either focusing on the wrong things or don't have the necessary knowledge to understand how it works.

If you don't know the basics or never sparred with a cane, stick, or staff then a lot of this stuff is going to look fancy and feel foreign.  This is especially true if you don't get any formal training in it.  

I remember there was a time where people thought my Jow Ga was fancy and unrealistic.  

Oh by the way.  I gym just opened up close to me with some heavy bags.  I'm excited about that.  I just got my booster and the gym is open 24/7.  But that's another story.

Lets take a look at some realistic things here.  There are 3 ranges (zones) of fighting.

Long range
Close range
Grappling.

If you have a cane and you and I are sparring.  I'm going to deny you your long range attacks.  Most people only know "Beat someone with a stick" or "Swing a stick"  Must of that knowledge that they have about that is in range #1.  Long range.

So how do I deny you #1. Long range fighting ability.  Easy.  I sneak up on you and grab your cane. If I take your cane, then I know you can't hit me with it.  You will either try to keep it or you'll let it go.





So my question to you is.  What do you do?
1. Do you know how to free your cane from a grab?
2. Do you know how to use the cane when someone is tugging on it like that? It's possible. There are techniques that do just that.

You may have answers for these questions or you may not.  It just depends on how you train and what you understand.  There have been so many times where I hear "Fancy" and I think to myself "What's fancy about it?"


----------



## Alan0354

wab25 said:


> I'll do this once more and then drop it... I am not the one that could be facing jail time over this.
> 
> You are carrying a weapon. You have admitted it here and even claim you hope to intimidate people by not even using it as a cane when you walk. (you are hoping that they see you as armed, and move on to an easier victim)
> 
> I think you should know a few things about the local law where you are...
> 1. Legally, are you carrying a concealed weapon or are you carrying an open weapon?
> 2. Is the way you are carrying the weapon (concealed or open) a felony or misdemeanor?
> 3. Is the weapon you are carrying considered a lethal weapon? If so, when exactly are you allowed to respond with lethal force?
> 
> I believe that anyone wanting to carry a weapon should educate themselves on the laws local to the area that they will be carrying the weapon. Not knowing and not understanding the law is not a great defense in court.


I check a lot on legality of cane, it is ABSOLUTELY legal as long as there is no sharp edge or pointed ends. It is VERY CLEAR.

Using it to defend yourself is a different story. If you hit someone with a cane, then you can be in trouble depend whether the DA want to make an example out of you. It is just that simple. You really need to watch the news.


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> I check a lot on legality of cane, it is ABSOLUTELY legal as long as there is no sharp edge or pointed ends. It is VERY CLEAR.
> 
> Using it to defend yourself is a different story. If you hit someone with a cane, then you can be in trouble depend whether the DA want to make an example out of you. It is just that simple. You really need to watch the news.


Unless you fall a foul of the "going forth armed" principles that many states or local governments have. No, not joking.


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> If you understand the basics then you can easily weed out the unrealistic stuff.  I find that most people who see a lot of "Fancy" in martial arts are either focusing on the wrong things or don't have the necessary knowledge to understand how it works.
> 
> If you don't know the basics or never sparred with a cane, stick, or staff then a lot of this stuff is going to look fancy and feel foreign.  This is especially true if you don't get any formal training in it.
> 
> I remember there was a time where people thought my Jow Ga was fancy and unrealistic.
> 
> Oh by the way.  I gym just opened up close to me with some heavy bags.  I'm excited about that.  I just got my booster and the gym is open 24/7.  But that's another story.
> 
> Lets take a look at some realistic things here.  There are 3 ranges (zones) of fighting.
> 
> Long range
> Close range
> Grappling.
> 
> If you have a cane and you and I are sparring.  I'm going to deny you your long range attacks.  Most people only know "Beat someone with a stick" or "Swing a stick"  Must of that knowledge that they have about that is in range #1.  Long range.
> 
> So how do I deny you #1. Long range fighting ability.  Easy.  I sneak up on you and grab your cane. If I take your cane, then I know you can't hit me with it.  You will either try to keep it or you'll let it go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So my question to you is.  What do you do?
> 1. Do you know how to free your cane from a grab?
> 2. Do you know how to use the cane when someone is tugging on it like that? It's possible. There are techniques that do just that.
> 
> You may have answers for these questions or you may not.  It just depends on how you train and what you understand.  There have been so many times where I hear "Fancy" and I think to myself "What's fancy about it?"


Don't mean to be disrespectful, You did give me a few good advice like going slow, the videos on full contact stick fights where the grappler rush and take the guy to the ground. I might not know stick fight, but I do have a few years experience in MA and I watch enough videos and sparred enough to know what is fancy vs what works.

All the fancy stuffs, it was only Lamont Glass that talked about Casting, Tony  Dismukes actually talked about body mechanics. I cannot help but to laugh at all the fancy stuffs. Casting and body mechanics are what I consider important. You can laugh at it, I've been around. In MA, I only practice how to punch with body mechanics, how to hit hard, hit as fast as possible, how to close the distance and how to move away from harm's way.

You linked some good videos, but I watched the videos you linked, but I will never even want to learn this:





Sorry. How hard can he hit, all the turning around, switching the ends back and fore. It's just not me, I honestly never even watch to the end. Show me a video that this work in real fight, I'll take a second look. I mean actually competition or fight.

Again, you are one of the few here I respect, I think about this a long time before I respond this.


----------



## Alan0354

lklawson said:


> Unless you fall a foul of the "going forth armed" principles that many states or local governments have. No, not joking.


Let's stop arguing with me, I don't agree with anything you said. Let's just drop it.


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> Let's stop arguing with me, I don't agree with anything you said. Let's just drop it.


I know you don't agree. And your disagreement is based from a position of ignorance and inexperience. 

I would wish you good luck, but at this point I'm not sure that even luck would be able to pull you through.


----------



## Alan0354

I cannot help to post this video again. I consider this is a very good stick fight(not full contact with fist and grappling). Look at how simple their moves are. How amazing the footwork. I can't help watching this over and over and try to learn. *There are a lot to be learned in this video. NOTHING FANCY. No fancy blocking, trapping, turn around, switching hands. Just good.*


----------



## Alan0354

lklawson said:


> I know you don't agree. And your disagreement is based from a position of ignorance and inexperience.
> 
> I would wish you good luck, but at this point I'm not sure that even luck would be able to pull you through.


You don't have to be insulting. I just do not agree with a single thing you said. show me your competition video what you said, or at least video of real fight(at least full speed sparring ). Don't just talk. Everyone has a month, it's the action that means anything.


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> You don't have to be insulting. I just do not agree with a single thing you said. show me your competition video what you said, or at least video of real fight(at least full speed sparring ). Don't just talk. Everyone has a month, it's the action that means anything.


Come visit me. I'll teach you. Won't even charge you.


----------



## lklawson

lklawson said:


> Unless you fall a foul of the "going forth armed" principles that many states or local governments have. No, not joking.


Wait? You're going to click disagree on actual real court cases referenced in the link? You're kidding me.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> Sorry. How hard can he hit, all the turning around, switching the ends back and fore.


I don't know how hard he can hit.  I only know how hard I can hit doing the same techniques.

As for my ability I can hit hard enough to break bone using some of those strikes. The heavier the cane the more damage my swings will create.  But the reality about that Jow Ga Cane video is that not all of those are strikes.  Some are counters to stick grabs, while others are grappling technique for when someone grabs part of the body.

The spin that you think is fancy is a bait.  It's no different than how spinning backfist, a spinning back kick, a spinning side kick catches people off guard. There is more than enough proof of people getting KOed in MMA from a technique that spins.


----------



## Unkogami




----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> Look at how simple their moves are. How amazing the footwork. I can't help watching this over and over and try to learn. *There are a lot to be learned in this video. NOTHING FANCY. No fancy blocking, trapping, turn around, switching hands. Just good.*


There is nothing simple about their moves.  Give it a try.


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> There is nothing simple about their moves.  Give it a try.


They sure don't have fancy moves like switching hands, moving hands up and down the stick, turn around and do fancy pretty moves. Their footwork is very good, the strikes are simple. He even commented he parry the stick with his hand, NOT any fancy moves. That's how real fights are. Forget baiting, just strike and move.

That video is what I am watching over and over and learn.


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know how hard he can hit.  I only know how hard I can hit doing the same techniques.
> 
> As for my ability I can hit hard enough to break bone using some of those strikes. The heavier the cane the more damage my swings will create.  But the reality about that Jow Ga Cane video is that not all of those are strikes.  Some are counters to stick grabs, while others are grappling technique for when someone grabs part of the body.
> 
> The spin that you think is fancy is a bait.  It's no different than how spinning backfist, a spinning back kick, a spinning side kick catches people off guard. There is more than enough proof of people getting KOed in MMA from a technique that spins.


I know how hard Lamont Glass can hit by his Casting. Straight forward, nothing fancy. BUT, the devil is in the detail. That, I spent months already. Now the body mechanics. It's going to take me time to practice. I can say now I can increase the length of the cane(weight) and/or add the rubber foot to add weight. The few days I practice, I can feel the difference. ALL very straight forward strike, but to me, that's the secret of a good strike. To me, it's the combining of body, legs and arms to generate the force that is the key.

Speaking of MMA, you see anything particular fancy moves until lately when they are getting so good and so expert. For the longest time, they are just kick boxing together with ground work. No fancy moves. You think anyone of us can even touch the level they are at? that we can afford to waste time in useless fancy moves? You really think for normal people can use block, traps and all that in real fights. We'll be good if we can use simple head movement, parrying the attack to our head already.

I'd be the first to say I am not that talent, I don't work as hard as them. All I can think of is how to close the distance, put in good strikes, then get out of his hitting range and live to try again. I don't do spinning back anything. I would be very very happy if I can close the distance fast, stick a few solid punches or front kick and get out. Yes, now you start seeing all the spinning kicks and punches in UFC......After years of improvement and hard training. Are we that good? Why not just stick with the basic and stay alive first?

If I am 40 years younger, stronger, and more importantly, have more talent and time, I might consider doing more of the fancy work. For now and for most amateurs like most of us, just stay simple.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> hey sure don't have fancy moves like switching hands,


Switching hands isn't fancy.  You just think it is.  If you are holding a stick in your right hand and I break that right hand, do you not pick up the stick with your left hand?  Or do you leave the stick on the ground because you don't want to switch?

If I have a knife in one hand that you manage to stop from stabbing you and I drop the knife into my free hand and stab you with my left hand.  Then is that fancy?

Do you only punch with your right hand? Or do you switch hands to punch with your left as well?

Sliding hands isn't fancy either.  Baseball players do it all the the time when they bunt. Some fishermen do it depending on the size of the fish on the line.  Lacrosse players do it all the time.  I'm sure hockey players do it all the time too.  Is that fancy too?

Most people who fight with spear slide their hands.  They also switch hands too.  No different than fighting with power hand forward or power hand back.


Alan0354 said:


> He even commented he parry the stick with his hand, NOT any fancy moves. That's how real fights are. Forget baiting, just strike and move.


Yep "Real fights" I would say that's debatable.  I've seen more MMA and BJJ bait people for a take down in a street fight than I've seen people parry a stick in a street fight or parry a punch in a street fight. 

Some of the things that you think is fancy really isn't.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> ALL very straight forward strike, but to me, that's the secret of a good strike. To me, it's the combining of body, legs and arms to generate the force that is the key.


Same thing I've heard from many TMA practitioners.



Alan0354 said:


> Speaking of MMA, you see anything particular fancy moves until lately when they are getting so good and so expert. For the longest time, they are just kick boxing together with ground work. No fancy moves. You think anyone of us can even touch the level they are at? that we can afford to waste time in useless fancy moves?


Are the moves Fancy and Useless or Fancy and Useful, but only MMA can do it? Can it really be both?  Or is it the limitations of the person that determines if a technique can be done?



Alan0354 said:


> You really think for normal people can use block, traps and all that in real fights.


Yes I think normal people who do a lot of serious training and conditioning can do these things.





BJJ has a lot of amazing things and a lot of people who train BJJ seriously can do those things.  A lot of them are normal people.  Now if you are talking about "normal people who don't train" then no. Normal people who don't train can't do the same thing because they don't know the same thing nor train the same thing that BJJ practitioners train.  But just because the people who don't train can't do it, doesn't make BJJ fancy.  But in my eyes, BJJ does a lot of things that I think are fancy, but then again I don't train BJJ so that's why it looks that way to me.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> If I am 40 years younger, stronger, and more importantly, have more talent and time, I might consider doing more of the fancy work. For now and for most amateurs like most of us, just stay simple.


Footwork isn't simple.  Ask @Ivan how much hard work he had to put into his "simple footwork"  Many of us have watched him develop over the last few years and he's still working on it.  And the truth is, he'll always be working on it.  Just like everyone else.

If you want to play tennis then you can't ignore the footwork.
If you want to play basketball then you can't ignore the footwork
If you want to dance, then you can't ignore the footwork. 

Fighting and self-defense is no different unless you no longer have the use of your legs or feet.


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> Same thing I've heard from many TMA practitioners.
> 
> 
> Are the moves Fancy and Useless or Fancy and Useful, but only MMA can do it? Can it really be both?  Or is it the limitations of the person that determines if a technique can be done?
> 
> 
> Yes I think normal people who do a lot of serious training and conditioning can do these things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BJJ has a lot of amazing things and a lot of people who train BJJ seriously can do those things.  A lot of them are normal people.  Now if you are talking about "normal people who don't train" then no. Normal people who don't train can't do the same thing because they don't know the same thing nor train the same thing that BJJ practitioners train.  But just because the people who don't train can't do it, doesn't make BJJ fancy.  But in my eyes, BJJ does a lot of things that I think are fancy, but then again I don't train BJJ so that's why it looks that way to me.


You are changing the subject, this is grappling, that's pretty much their basic moves. I am talking about in the striking, all the fancy blocking, all the moves and all that are useless. None of the spinning, baiting can get you out of the grappler, just looks stupider.

No offense, I grew up in Hong Kong where there are kung fu everywhere, I've seen enough of those so called master and showing all the useless fancy stuffs, all the kung fu collapsed in the first few UFC............But that's off the subject.

Back to the cane. I agree, if I really want to improve, I should learn BJJ so I don't have to worry about being grabbed using the cane. BUT that is totally different from all the fancy moves that is useless, baiting, spinning, changing hands and all that. I stay with my 4 strikes and 2 thrust. I just want to do it faster and hit harder.


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> Footwork isn't simple.  Ask @Ivan how much hard work he had to put into his "simple footwork"  Many of us have watched him develop over the last few years and he's still working on it.  And the truth is, he'll always be working on it.  Just like everyone else.
> 
> If you want to play tennis then you can't ignore the footwork.
> If you want to play basketball then you can't ignore the footwork
> If you want to dance, then you can't ignore the footwork.
> 
> Fighting and self-defense is no different unless you no longer have the use of your legs or feet.


AGREE, that's what is important. Look at the footwork of the video I provided, how they move in and out. They don't count on blocking, counter or any of the fancy moves, their footwork got them out of trouble most of the time.

Yes, that's where I am spending a lot of time. It's one thing using Casting and body movement to hit hard, it's another thing of getting into position to deliver the strike. I did studied quite a few FMA videos on footwork and try to incorporate into what I feel comfortable.

I even have a thread asking about footwork, nobody join in!!! It is that important to me.

Remember I was talking about walking around swinging in deep horse stance? I am still practicing at least 5 minutes 5 days a week just for the hell of it even though it's absolutely useless in real fight............In fact, it really screwed me up when I taped the first two videos in this thread. I deleted those two videos already, that did not represent me, it was a mistake. I cannot turn my body with that deep stand and got into bad habit after a while.

Why do you think I said I practice a few months of Casting, it's not the Casting alone, that would be really slow to have to practice Casting for a few months. It's how to do casting with the footwork to get to the right position to strike and move out after the strike. I might not be good at it, but I am sure as hell trying and keep practicing. This to me, is the key. Move in, strike, move out.

It would be so easy to just stand there left foot forward and do casting and use the whole body to swing the cane. It's a completely different thing to move around and at the same time casting and use the whole body. *I really had to start in slow motion like you advice before. Start slow, make sure doing it right before adding speed.*

This, I think it takes time, it's not like you learn something and you got it. It's like kick boxing, it takes years to get good even though you can learn all the basics in a month or two. It's Practice practice and practice.


I post this thread to ask people what I do wrong in my moves, what I should concentrate on. I am not asking about all the fancy moves.* I feel I got what I want. I did learn from your video IT'S A BAD IDEA TO STRAP THE CANE TO MY WRIST, I got rid of the strap. I learn how to practice body movement from Tony Dismukes. I learned NOT to let my elbows fly out so it's harder for grappler to rush and take me down. I learn I should NOT use deeper horse stance to move around in real life, keep it in practice only. *I do feel I learn a lot. Only thing left is for me to practice until I am better and make another video so people can point out things. I have you to point out a few things for me also. That I thank you.

You might not think I listen, but I pay a lot of attention and I pick out things that is important to me.


----------



## drop bear

Alan0354 said:


> I know how hard Lamont Glass can hit by his Casting. Straight forward, nothing fancy. BUT, the devil is in the detail. That, I spent months already. Now the body mechanics. It's going to take me time to practice. I can say now I can increase the length of the cane(weight) and/or add the rubber foot to add weight. The few days I practice, I can feel the difference. ALL very straight forward strike, but to me, that's the secret of a good strike. To me, it's the combining of body, legs and arms to generate the force that is the key.
> 
> Speaking of MMA, you see anything particular fancy moves until lately when they are getting so good and so expert. For the longest time, they are just kick boxing together with ground work. No fancy moves. You think anyone of us can even touch the level they are at? that we can afford to waste time in useless fancy moves? You really think for normal people can use block, traps and all that in real fights. We'll be good if we can use simple head movement, parrying the attack to our head already.
> 
> I'd be the first to say I am not that talent, I don't work as hard as them. All I can think of is how to close the distance, put in good strikes, then get out of his hitting range and live to try again. I don't do spinning back anything. I would be very very happy if I can close the distance fast, stick a few solid punches or front kick and get out. Yes, now you start seeing all the spinning kicks and punches in UFC......After years of improvement and hard training. Are we that good? Why not just stick with the basic and stay alive first?
> 
> If I am 40 years younger, stronger, and more importantly, have more talent and time, I might consider doing more of the fancy work. For now and for most amateurs like most of us, just stay simple.



I think you are going to get semanticsed to death with the fancy idea. And Mabye high percentage is what you are looking for.

Which for self defense kind of is the way to go.

The complexity is being able to create an environment where your simple technique works. And that is what separates good fighters from poor ones.

And you probably need to develop that through sparring.

And the biggest problem with learning stick is there isn't as many super cagey stick guys out there.


----------



## Alan0354

drop bear said:


> I think you are going to get semanticsed to death with the fancy idea. And Mabye high percentage is what you are looking for.
> 
> Which for self defense kind of is the way to go.
> 
> The complexity is being able to create an environment where your simple technique works. And that is what separates good fighters from poor ones.
> 
> And you probably need to develop that through sparring.
> 
> And the biggest problem with learning stick is there isn't as many super cagey stick guys out there.


Yeh, sparring is the best way to gain experience. Problem is who? If I join a school, I would have to follow their style which is single hand. Also, I am getting too old to go taking all the abuse!!! That's the reason I concentrate on a few simple strike. It is not exactly a walk in the park for me. My shoulder hurts, my elbow hurts, my back.......... It's easy if I am young, at this age, I have to pick my battle. Not trying to get sympathy, it's like I have to do 60 pushups, 10lbs dumbbell lateral raise just to warm up the shoulder and elbow before I can practice. Also have to warm up the back. It's very time consuming everyday. If I don't do that, I would injure myself. There's nothing good getting old. I practice in the morning and at night, warm up twice, that's over 100 pushups and dumbbells a day just to warmup!!! And that's not counted as weight training for me. That's another long exercise.

Yes, I kept talking about Casting and body motion, I really don't mean just standing there and do it. That would be too easy. I can learn and do it right in one day. The DIFFICULT part is how to *combine with the footwork and still do Casting with body motion to add the force.* It is NOT easy.  I expect to take months to really get good at it.

BTW, I actually prefer watching this video than those fancy ones. At least they are doing it!!!


----------



## dvcochran

Alan0354 said:


> Actually a lot of my stuffs are system. One of my paper on the Fast RAE is a whole concept. We even got a phase II SBIR grant from the government to build the product. Two of the patents with the company are system level, in fact is more mechanically oriented than electronics. One is how to eliminate numerous mechanical sSprings, screws by using a very fancy pcb to form the whole dector. It's a like 32 layer pcb that combine RF and high voltage into one unit. The latest patent was a mechanical railing system in putting 6 different arms concentrate in a very small area with low noise, RF, high voltage all confined into a tiny space. I actually had to draw out my idea and have a mechanical engineer put it into Auto CAD to build them.
> 
> One thing, even I was the manager of EE, I layout all my boards. I cannot say enough how important is PCB layout in critical mixed signal RF, control circuitry. Particular with high voltage......I am talking about over 10KV. The war usually won or lost in the PCB layout.
> 
> One thing I regret not doing is designing SMPS. I let my engineer design all those. Now that I am alone, I really want to use switchers for my amps, but I have no one to do it for me. I might just stop and learn how to design one as a challenge one day. Those stupid big transformers and capacitors are big, heavy and expensive!!!


Kudos on the Phase II grant. They are not easy to get I hear. 

I never got super deep in to working at the circuit board level. While I understand the logic, it is usually very difficult to acquire manufacturer schematics and even more difficult to disassemble and trace a board. The economics of it force a person to troubleshoot to a board level failure and make a determination there. It is much, much cheaper to replace a board (entire component) in most cases.

I learned how so much of acquiring a patent is in the wording and subsequent explanation of the product/process. 

I am not familiar with your application but switching power supplies are very common as a commodity. What is the load requirement (watts/current)? Do you need to vary the output type (A to D or D to A), voltage, or current?


----------



## lklawson

JowGaWolf said:


> Footwork isn't simple.  Ask @Ivan how much hard work he had to put into his "simple footwork"  Many of us have watched him develop over the last few years and he's still working on it.  And the truth is, he'll always be working on it.  Just like everyone else.
> 
> If you want to play tennis then you can't ignore the footwork.
> If you want to play basketball then you can't ignore the footwork
> If you want to dance, then you can't ignore the footwork.
> 
> Fighting and self-defense is no different unless you no longer have the use of your legs or feet.


"Never give a sword to a man who can’t dance"
-Old Martial Proverb

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> I think you are going to get semanticsed to death with the fancy idea. And Mabye high percentage is what you are looking for.
> 
> Which for self defense kind of is the way to go.
> 
> The complexity is being able to create an environment where your simple technique works. And that is what separates good fighters from poor ones.
> 
> And you probably need to develop that through sparring.
> 
> And the biggest problem with learning stick is there isn't as many super cagey stick guys out there.


They're doing Vigny/Lang style la Canne, ala Bartitsu lineage.


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> Yeh, sparring is the best way to gain experience. Problem is who? If I join a school, I would have to follow their style which is single hand.


Except for the multiple times that both fighter went double-hand on their stick, both for strike and for block.  You need to actually watch the video to comment on it.




Alan0354 said:


> BTW, I actually prefer watching this video than those fancy ones. At least they are doing it!!!


There was subtlety in some of those techniques that you apparently didn't see.  They juke, they feint, they draw attacks, they change angles.


----------



## drop bear

lklawson said:


> They're doing Vigny/Lang style la Canne, ala Bartitsu lineage.



The one thing I noticed with that is he is actually blocking the return shots. Which is exceedingly hard at speed. 

But yeah. La canne should be a viable option.


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> The one thing I noticed with that is he is actually blocking the return shots. Which is exceedingly hard at speed.
> 
> But yeah. La canne should be a viable option.


One of the most recognizable features of the la Canne Vigny style is the hand-back hanging guard with an emphasis on quick return to guard after a strike.  That makes it much easier to get the block.


----------



## drop bear

Alan0354 said:


> Yeh, sparring is the best way to gain experience. Problem is who? If I join a school, I would have to follow their style which is single hand. Also, I am getting too old to go taking all the abuse!!! That's the reason I concentrate on a few simple strike. It is not exactly a walk in the park for me. My shoulder hurts, my elbow hurts, my back.......... It's easy if I am young, at this age, I have to pick my battle. Not trying to get sympathy, it's like I have to do 60 pushups, 10lbs dumbbell lateral raise just to warm up the shoulder and elbow before I can practice. Also have to warm up the back. It's very time consuming everyday. If I don't do that, I would injure myself. There's nothing good getting old. I practice in the morning and at night, warm up twice, that's over 100 pushups and dumbbells a day just to warmup!!! And that's not counted as weight training for me. That's another long exercise.
> 
> Yes, I kept talking about Casting and body motion, I really don't mean just standing there and do it. That would be too easy. I can learn and do it right in one day. The DIFFICULT part is how to *combine with the footwork and still do Casting with body motion to add the force.* It is NOT easy.  I expect to take months to really get good at it.
> 
> BTW, I actually prefer watching this video than those fancy ones. At least they are doing it!!!



The issue you are going to have is that you may not find a school that perfectly matches your intent. 

And Mabye you will have to make do. Or Mabye people who weild a stick with one hand are better and that's why you see it done more often. I don't know I don't stick fight. 

Otherwise even without sparring hard or whatever. Being able to pick the brains of those who do is very helpful.


----------



## Blindside

Alan0354 said:


> Yeh, sparring is the best way to gain experience. Problem is who? If I join a school, I would have to follow their style which is single hand. Also, I am getting too old to go taking all the abuse!!!


Private lessons.  Tell the instructor what you are looking for and they can tailor lessons as necessary.  Don't like the lessons, don't go back.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> The issue you are going to have is that you may not find a school that perfectly matches your intent.
> 
> And Mabye you will have to make do. Or Mabye people who weild a stick with one hand are better and that's why you see it done more often. I don't know I don't stick fight.
> 
> Otherwise even without sparring hard or whatever. Being able to pick the brains of those who do is very helpful.


Most people who spar do stick vs stick because both are learning how to fight with a stick.  You will rarely see video of empty hand vs stick. 

My son and I would start sparring from the grappling position the few times we trained it. But most of the time it was staff vs staff.


----------



## lklawson

JowGaWolf said:


> Most people who spar do stick vs stick because both are learning how to fight with a stick.  You will rarely see video of empty hand vs stick.
> 
> My son and I would start sparring from the grappling position the few times we trained it. But most of the time it was staff vs staff.


When teaching / training weapons, I always make it a point to include non-matched weapon.  Last night I was teaching Tomahawk.  Our last drills were Tomahawk vs. Hunting Saber.

When I teach stick, particularly the Vigny/Bartitsu, I will deliberately match stick against knife, slung-shot, and unarmed.  Besides the obvious, there is a historic reason for this; the Bartitsuka was typically a well off Edwardian gentleman who was concerned about low-class ruffians assaulting and robbing him.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Alan0354

drop bear said:


> The one thing I noticed with that is he is actually blocking the return shots. Which is exceedingly hard at speed.
> 
> But yeah. La canne should be a viable option.


It is very sophisticated, it has a name, called Instinct Reflex. It is more than we simpletents can comprehend.

Can you imagine, even the instinct reflex is too slow, how much slower if you have to use a fancy move? I learn Wing Chung before, all the fancy rotating the forearm and elbow to block. You seen them EVER use it in fights? I only see them being butt kicked. There's a lot of videos of Wing Chung fighting MMA, you EVER see them using ANY wing chung? EVER?!!! It was so funny when one famous WC guy got his butt kicked so bad, he started using boxing hands and try to save whatever face remained. 

When a punch comes in, the most natural reflex is move your head and parry. Work on that and make it faster. DO NOT try to be fancy and learn those STUPID fancy moves.


----------



## Blindside

Alan0354 said:


> They sure don't have fancy moves like switching hands, moving hands up and down the stick, turn around and do fancy pretty moves. Their footwork is very good, the strikes are simple. He even commented he parry the stick with his hand, NOT any fancy moves. That's how real fights are. Forget baiting, just strike and move.
> 
> That video is what I am watching over and over and learn.



There is a difference, that is a shorter stick done under a ruleset that is essentially as if the stick was a machete, every hit matters, even relatively minor ones.  So you aren't seeing a lot of grapples, do it under stick rules and you will see a lot more grappling.  Once grappling happens you are at close quarters and you will often be going two on one with the stick and thus "moving hands up and down the stick."  If you aren't training your close range games you have a giant glaring hole in your self-defense practice.


----------



## Alan0354

Blindside said:


> There is a difference, that is a shorter stick done under a ruleset that is essentially as if the stick was a machete, every hit matters, even relatively minor ones.  So you aren't seeing a lot of grapples, do it under stick rules and you will see a lot more grappling.  Once grappling happens you are at close quarters and you will often be going two on one with the stick and thus "moving hands up and down the stick."  If you aren't training your close range games you have a giant glaring hole in your self-defense practice.


Hi Lamont

Glad to see you on this thread. I hope you can join in more.

Do you have any video link on close range stick fight you can give me so I can learn?

I have been practicing almost everyday. I try to make another video soon and I hope you can give me guidance. 

Thanks

alan


----------



## drop bear

Alan0354 said:


> It is very sophisticated, it has a name, called Instinct Reflex. It is more than we simpletents can comprehend.
> 
> Can you imagine, even the instinct reflex is too slow, how much slower if you have to use a fancy move? I learn Wing Chung before, all the fancy rotating the forearm and elbow to block. You seen them EVER use it in fights? I only see them being butt kicked. There's a lot of videos of Wing Chung fighting MMA, you EVER see them using ANY wing chung? EVER?!!! It was so funny when one famous WC guy got his butt kicked so bad, he started using boxing hands and try to save whatever face remained.
> 
> When a punch comes in, the most natural reflex is move your head and parry. Work on that and make it faster. DO NOT try to be fancy and learn those STUPID fancy moves.



Having good reactions is a out more than just being quick.


----------



## drop bear

Alan0354 said:


> Hi Lamont
> 
> Glad to see you on this thread. I hope you can join in more.
> 
> Do you have any video link on close range stick fight you can give me so I can learn?
> 
> I have been practicing almost everyday. I try to make another video soon and I hope you can give me guidance.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> alan



A lot of the dog brothers stuff results in a grappling match.


----------



## Alan0354

drop bear said:


> A lot of the dog brothers stuff results in a grappling match.


That's very good video. That's the kind I like to see. Being aggressive do payoff. I talk about cane here, I never give up bare knuckles at all. Still practicing. Just not a subject here. Wish I am younger, I would go learn BJJ. That's really what I need.


----------



## Blindside

Alan0354 said:


> Hi Lamont
> 
> Glad to see you on this thread. I hope you can join in more.
> 
> Do you have any video link on close range stick fight you can give me so I can learn?
> 
> I have been practicing almost everyday. I try to make another video soon and I hope you can give me guidance.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> alan



So the first level of sparring is being able to hit an incoming attacker.  It doesn't have to be exactly like this, we use a knife versus stick so that both guys are getting training, you could do the same thing with a padded up unarmed guy.





This is mostly a distance match, but you can see how it closes up to standing grappling (and we were avoiding the ground because of my giant knee brace.) 





This is a good example of an extended standing grappling match with weapons and how you spend a lot of time trying to break free a weapon or to control the other person's.


----------



## Alan0354

Blindside said:


> So the first level of sparring is being able to hit an incoming attacker.  It doesn't have to be exactly like this, we use a knife versus stick so that both guys are getting training, you could do the same thing with a padded up unarmed guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is mostly a distance match, but you can see how it closes up to standing grappling (and we were avoiding the ground because of my giant knee brace.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good example of an extended standing grappling match with weapons and how you spend a lot of time trying to break free a weapon or to control the other person's.


*Thank you so much, these are the kind of videos I really want to see. Real full contact sparring.*

After I watched the 1st and 3rd video, I wish I can remember more about Judo that I took long time ago. That would really come in handy. Might not be as good as BJJ, but we did do a lot of tuck and pull and stuff like that.

I like your footwork also.

One think I notice more and more, also watching your videos. There's NO really good way to block the strikes reliably. You both landed on each other. It's NOT like people want to make others to believe you can have defensive blocking that are very effective and you can block the incoming strikes reliably. I've seen you using more footwork to move away. Also swinging the stick when you retreat to

a)  Block some strikes.

b) More importantly, distract the attacker as he has to watch out your stick and cause him to be more caution when charging you.

The second part is even more important, you *disrupt the flow of the opponent.* We learn that in my TKD class. My teacher was very progressive at the time. We did not train in tradition TKD with all the stupid blocking. We did practice a lot of jabbing or front kicks as we retreat. He called those defensive jab or defense kick. They are NOT exactly trying to land, more disruptive than anything.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I really think footwork is so important, I have to learn defensive striking as described, and I really have to find some ways to bring back my Judo experience( that is going to be hard!!!).

Thanks so much for your time. You experience is very valuable as THIS is more real, not talking. Please check on this thread more often, I am practicing very hard and I am going to record a new video soon even if I am not quite ready. I want your opinion. I am working on more body, shoulder, legs to add strength to my strikes. I am also incorporate more thrusting with both or one hand.

After watching the video from you and the one from *DROP BEAR* today, I am going to try in put in some step kicks to the knee and front kicks to the body to mix in high and low attack.

Also, watching the first video, I am glad I change to two hand strike and use a 20oz cane!!! Just hope when I land a strike, the guy will not be keep charging full speed as if I never landed!!!

Thanks




*To DROP BEAR:*

I have been practicing one hand thrusting with the right hand and use my left hand to either *push to the face or jab with fist*!!! I learn that from your video. It's more blocking his sight and disrupt his flow than to hit him wiht the left hand. Thank you.


*I LEARN A LOT TODAY!!!*


----------



## dvcochran

Blindside said:


> So the first level of sparring is being able to hit an incoming attacker.  It doesn't have to be exactly like this, we use a knife versus stick so that both guys are getting training, you could do the same thing with a padded up unarmed guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is mostly a distance match, but you can see how it closes up to standing grappling (and we were avoiding the ground because of my giant knee brace.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good example of an extended standing grappling match with weapons and how you spend a lot of time trying to break free a weapon or to control the other person's.


I really like video #2. And I miss this kind of sparring. 

The one thing of note I will mention is the 'weapon control' comment. My Tuhon (Bill McGrath) was more of a realist about this. While it is the lesser of two evils, grabbing a sharp blade was taught to me as a last resort movement. There was more emphasis on getting inside or outside the member and taking control of the wrist. 
If not done with care, padding up can very much give a person a false sense of security that can transfer. 

Great post.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> I really like video #2. And I miss this kind of sparring.
> 
> The one thing of note I will mention is the 'weapon control' comment. My Tuhon (Bill McGrath) was more of a realist about this. While it is the lesser of two evils, grabbing a sharp blade was taught to me as a last resort movement. There was more emphasis on getting inside or outside the member and taking control of the wrist.
> If not done with care, padding up can very much give a person a false sense of security that can transfer.
> 
> Great post.


This is why any blade training I do, I think of that dull training weapon as if it's real.  I don't want to get into habit of grabbing things I shouldn't.  If I trained escrima then I would have to decide if the stick is a stick or if it's a training sword.  The movements for both are the same and my body would become confused if I trying to see the stick as both. My brain just doesn't have the ability for that.


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> A lot of the dog brothers stuff results in a grappling match.


Tuhon Phil there is my is one of my martial arts exemplars, I wanna be like him when I grow up.


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> This is why any blade training I do, I think of that dull training weapon as if it's real.  I don't want to get into habit of grabbing things I shouldn't.  If I trained escrima then I would have to decide if the stick is a stick or if it's a training sword.  The movements for both are the same and my body would become confused if I trying to see the stick as both. My brain just doesn't have the ability for that.


I don't have to, I would never carry a sword!! It's always a cane/stick.

From watching all these videos, seems like winner or loser, nobody comes out clean. Just more cuts or less cuts. It's not like movies the winner comes out untouched. I guess that's where body armor was used back in the days.


----------



## Alan0354

I must be hitting harder after a week practicing body motion!! I just hit the bag today, look at my thumb, a big bruise. I train on heavy bags twice a week consistently(can't affort to break the heavy bag!!). Last time was Sunday, everything was usual. This morning, after half a set, it was very painful already and I have to switch to more thrusting and less striking.





I did not change the way I hold the cane, it's the same cane, it even have foam covered handle. I did not take time off lately, so it's not because of my hand is out of shape. I never have problem even doing multiple sets at one time. Today, I have to stop after one set only as it was painful. I saw it later on and have to take a picture. It might not show that well, it's a pretty dark bruise!!!

I hope this is the sign I am hitting harder with the body motion!!! I did not even try to hit harder than usual....At least I did not intend to. Hopefully this is a good sign that I am doing it right.


----------



## Alan0354

Blindside said:


> So the first level of sparring is being able to hit an incoming attacker.  It doesn't have to be exactly like this, we use a knife versus stick so that both guys are getting training, you could do the same thing with a padded up unarmed guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is mostly a distance match, but you can see how it closes up to standing grappling (and we were avoiding the ground because of my giant knee brace.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good example of an extended standing grappling match with weapons and how you spend a lot of time trying to break free a weapon or to control the other person's.


I watched the videos a few times. The first video is very unfair to you. Look like you use a training stick that is soft and he had the head protection. No matter how you hit him, he just kept charging and ignore your strikes. This is NOT going to happen in real life!!! If you use a true rattan stick and he doesn't have head protection, he would be a lot more hesitant to charge and stab you.......If he can still charge after a few hits to the head.

Also, from the 3rd video, looks like nobody is going to walk away unskated no matter you win or lose. Just who gets injured more seriously. It's not like in movie that the good guy walk away happily while the bad guy is dead. Same as stick fight, it's about who got hit more and got hit harder, so eventually one will drop!! Nobody can effectively block all the attack.

That said, watching the second video, you blame me for reluctant to join a class. Looks painful. This is NOT like bare knuckle MA, when we spar, it's a lot easier to control how hard you hit and no body really get hurt.....that often!!!( one time I stepped in to punch at the same time the other person threw a front kick. My ribs were wide open and I ate a good one combining my forward motion and his kick, couldn't even laugh for two weeks!!). I don't think you can control the stick as easy as punching and kicking. It's deceiving to think if you were protection, it's not painful. We wore pads some times, don't tell me it doesn't hurt!!! I'm too old to take this. If I am like the age when I trained in TKD, I sure don't mind. Not at 69!!!


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> I don't have to, I would never carry a sword!! It's always a cane/stick.
> 
> From watching all these videos, seems like winner or loser, nobody comes out clean. Just more cuts or less cuts. It's not like movies the winner comes out untouched.


That depends on a lot of things, including how much training and experience the participants have.  In this video, both are obviously trained.  They use distance, timing, deceptive weapon-work, and footwork.  Neither gets cut.





In this video, however, it is obvious that no one has any training in anything, weapons work, unarmed striking, nor grappling.  Both swing wildly like baboons with a stick, move like pregnant yaks, have the footwork of a one-legged epileptic giraffe, and when they close to grappling look like monkeys humping a football.  But cuts with the machete connect and wounds were incurred.





Notice the reoccurring theme of 'get actual training'?


----------



## Oily Dragon

drop bear said:


> A lot of the dog brothers stuff results in a grappling match.



Such great footwork.  I mean the sticks are cool but the stepping is cooler and more interesting a lot of the time.


Alan0354 said:


> I don't have to, I would never carry a sword!! It's always a cane/stick.



Obligatory funny.

Yeah, carrying a sword around in 2022 in public, you're gonna have a bad time.  Especially if you write a book about it.

What I never understood was why he'd make the cover of a "Street Sword" book in the middle of snowy woodlands, before we even get to that grip...


----------



## lklawson

Oily Dragon said:


> Such great footwork.  I mean the sticks are cool but the stepping is cooler and more interesting a lot of the time.
> 
> 
> Obligatory funny.
> 
> Yeah, carrying a sword around in 2022 in public, you're gonna have a bad time.  Especially if you write a book about it.
> 
> What I never understood was why he'd make the cover of a "Street Sword" book in the middle of snowy woodlands, before we even get to that grip...
> 
> View attachment 27935


Elmore doesn't like me.

Did you read the book?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> I don't have to, I would never carry a sword!! It's always a cane/stick.
> 
> From watching all these videos, seems like winner or loser, nobody comes out clean. Just more cuts or less cuts. It's not like movies the winner comes out untouched. I guess that's where body armor was used back in the days.


I'm referring to defense.  A stick I can grab. I don't want to grab a blade so when I train to defend against a weapon I always train to grab the wrist or forearm.  Staff is the only weapon I think of as a stick.  With an escrima stick I'm going to treat it like a blade.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Alan0354 said:


> Thanks
> 
> Yes, I notice if I use the body right, I can keep my elbow close to the body to strike. I did remember you guys told me that my elbows are too far out. Now I understand. I never wrestled before, only Judo.
> 
> Thanks for noticing the sound system. I am very very into sound. I design my own power amp and preamp. I spend even more time on that than MA. Electronic design is my passion of life, I had a full career as EE and manager of EE. After I retired in 2005, I never stop. I even set up a lab in one of my rooms as a lab with all the test equipment. I always into audiophile, I decided to design power amp as it's the more challenge part of the system. I have friends brought their good power amps that are up to $4000 to $5000 and do blind tests( not knowing which amp is playing and judge the sound) and they all picked my amps are the best by a lot. I even have a Nakamichi PA7( improved version of Threshold S300 designed by the famous Nelson Pass of Pass Lab) and it's not even close.
> 
> My amps are all relatively low power, the black one is only 60W@8ohm, but it can drive down to below 2ohms@250W/ch. It is designed to drive hard to drive speakers. The harder the speakers, the more they shine. They are all high current design with the first 15 to 20W in class A.
> 
> I just bought the pair of speakers about 2 years ago, it's JM Lab Alto Utopia. I bought it used as the new equivalent ones are over $20K. I am cheap, I buy used ones for 1/3 the price. I never intended to go extravagant on speakers like this, I used to (still have) have a pair of JM Lab Spectral. But as I improved my amps, the amp out class the speakers, I have no choice to dish out the money to get the better pair. Sadly, it turns out because the old Spectral being 4ohm speaker, they are more critical to the amp than the Utopia that are 8ohms. You want to test amps, you need a pair of hard to drive speakers. I heard Martin Logan panel speakers are one of those.
> 
> Anyway, don't get me started on this, I can talk forever!!! I am currently design one that the cost of *parts alone* is $1500 each. Those older ones are only about $1000 each for parts. I do it the professional way, the inside of the amps look more expensive than those good amp on the market. No Micky Mouse, all printed circuit board, professional connectors, beefy wires................
> 
> Here are some pictures of my amps:
> View attachment 27915View attachment 27916
> 
> View attachment 27918
> 
> 
> I believe the older people are, the more they need exercise. MA, stick fight and weight lifting are exercise for the body. THIS.....is my exercise of the brain. I even obtain a US Patent on noise cancellation for electric guitar in 2014. That's another story for a different time. I designed guitar amplifiers also!!!


Wow!


----------



## Rich Parsons

Blindside said:


> This is mostly a distance match, but you can see how it closes up to standing grappling (and we were avoiding the ground because of my giant knee brace.)



Lamont, 

Good use of your baiting techniques. 
You presented the high block early for him and left it hanging to he would hit it, which gave you the quick counter. 
This should range control, and presenting a target for the opponent to attack to bring them into a range so you can attack back. 

I like it.


----------



## Alan0354

lklawson said:


> That depends on a lot of things, including how much training and experience the participants have.  In this video, both are obviously trained.  They use distance, timing, deceptive weapon-work, and footwork.  Neither gets cut.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In this video, however, it is obvious that no one has any training in anything, weapons work, unarmed striking, nor grappling.  Both swing wildly like baboons with a stick, move like pregnant yaks, have the footwork of a one-legged epileptic giraffe, and when they close to grappling look like monkeys humping a football.  But cuts with the machete connect and wounds were incurred.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the reoccurring theme of 'get actual training'?


Yes, if only people learn the fancy moves, they will come out unscated.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> I must be hitting harder after a week practicing body motion!! I just hit the bag today, look at my thumb, a big bruise. I train on heavy bags twice a week consistently(can't affort to break the heavy bag!!). Last time was Sunday, everything was usual. This morning, after half a set, it was very painful already and I have to switch to more thrusting and less striking.
> View attachment 27934
> 
> I did not change the way I hold the cane, it's the same cane, it even have foam covered handle. I did not take time off lately, so it's not because of my hand is out of shape. I never have problem even doing multiple sets at one time. Today, I have to stop after one set only as it was painful. I saw it later on and have to take a picture. It might not show that well, it's a pretty dark bruise!!!
> 
> I hope this is the sign I am hitting harder with the body motion!!! I did not even try to hit harder than usual....At least I did not intend to. Hopefully this is a good sign that I am doing it right.


Switch hands?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

lklawson said:


> Elmore doesn't like me.
> 
> Did you read the book?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I know almost nothing of swordsmanship, but I find it fascinating. I have your book, I enjoyed reading it, though i must confess I had to do some additional research to get a better understanding of terms. If I were closer I would love the opportunity to train with you.


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> Switch hands?


No, I use both hands to swing.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> This is why any blade training I do, I think of that dull training weapon as if it's real.  I don't want to get into habit of grabbing things I shouldn't.  If I trained escrima then I would have to decide if the stick is a stick or if it's a training sword.  The movements for both are the same and my body would become confused if I trying to see the stick as both. My brain just doesn't have the ability for that.


Yeah, I was trained this is why Kali progresses from a sharp weapon, to stick, to empty hand training.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> No, I use both hands to swing.


If your other hand doesn't suffer the same damage then switch placement of hands.  It would still be a two-handed swing.


----------



## Dirty Dog

JowGaWolf said:


> This is why any blade training I do, I think of that dull training weapon as if it's real.  I don't want to get into habit of grabbing things I shouldn't.  If I trained escrima then I would have to decide if the stick is a stick or if it's a training sword.  The movements for both are the same and my body would become confused if I trying to see the stick as both. My brain just doesn't have the ability for that.


Some options for blade training:
Rubber knives with paint along the edge. There are commercial products with chalk bars embedded in the edge.
Big markers.
Chalk sticks. 
Flexible blades, such as the SCA and other HEMA groups use. You can put paint on the edges of these, as well, if you want.
Shockknives and similar products.


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> If your other hand doesn't suffer the same damage then switch placement of hands.  It would still be a two-handed swing.


I am hoping this will pass, switching hands is like switching stance or going south paw. I am training south paw in kick boxing, it's not easy.


----------



## Oily Dragon

lklawson said:


> Elmore doesn't like me.
> 
> Did you read the book?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I have many books on martial arts, and some of them are the best books I've ever read.  That is not one of them. 

If it makes you feel better, I dislike martial artists in general, but I make exceptions and you're one of them so far.

For sword stuff I tend to stick to the oldest material I can find, which tends to be the best.  I may have mentioned it before but I train in the Chinese Moon Flowing Saber, Double Sabers, but using Niten Doraku's methods as an underlying framework.  Because of this, I was able to avoid even considering that book.  Because I have little money to spare and I'd rather spend it on lessons with humans rather than dead wood and Kindle e-books.


----------



## Blindside

Alan0354 said:


> I watched the videos a few times. The first video is very unfair to you. Look like you use a training stick that is soft and he had the head protection. No matter how you hit him, he just kept charging and ignore your strikes. This is NOT going to happen in real life!!! If you use a true rattan stick and he doesn't have head protection, he would be a lot more hesitant to charge and stab you.......If he can still charge after a few hits to the head.


We are using a padded stick, this is just training.  There are two parts of this training, did I get a good hit on him as he came in and what happens if I don't?  So the second half of the training is dealing with him when he gets in close, a stick or cane isn't a lightsaber, lots of things can not go right.




Alan0354 said:


> Also, from the 3rd video, looks like nobody is going to walk away unskated no matter you win or lose. Just who gets injured more seriously. It's not like in movie that the good guy walk away happily while the bad guy is dead. Same as stick fight, it's about who got hit more and got hit harder, so eventually one will drop!! Nobody can effectively block all the attack.


Think of these as lots of little individual fights, if you take an axe shot to the hand that hit would probably end the fight as that is going to be pretty distracting.  I don't think these sparring matches represent reality, a mask and a rattan stick interact differently than a bare head and a hardwood stick, and that is fine, I can accept that diversion from reality.




Alan0354 said:


> That said, watching the second video, you blame me for reluctant to join a class. Looks painful. This is NOT like bare knuckle MA, when we spar, it's a lot easier to control how hard you hit and no body really get hurt.....that often!!!( one time I stepped in to punch at the same time the other person threw a front kick. My ribs were wide open and I ate a good one combining my forward motion and his kick, couldn't even laugh for two weeks!!). I don't think you can control the stick as easy as punching and kicking. It's deceiving to think if you were protection, it's not painful. We wore pads some times, don't tell me it doesn't hurt!!! I'm too old to take this. If I am like the age when I trained in TKD, I sure don't mind. Not at 69!!!


I don't expect everyone to do this, used padded sticks, wear a heavy coat, ask for lighter contact, there are lots of things you can do to make taking a hit easier on the body.


----------



## Blindside

Alan0354 said:


> *Thank you so much, these are the kind of videos I really want to see. Real full contact sparring.*
> 
> After I watched the 1st and 3rd video, I wish I can remember more about Judo that I took long time ago. That would really come in handy. Might not be as good as BJJ, but we did do a lot of tuck and pull and stuff like that.
> 
> I like your footwork also.
> 
> One think I notice more and more, also watching your videos. There's NO really good way to block the strikes reliably. You both landed on each other. It's NOT like people want to make others to believe you can have defensive blocking that are very effective and you can block the incoming strikes reliably. I've seen you using more footwork to move away. Also swinging the stick when you retreat to
> .......
> please correct me if I am wrong. I really think footwork is so important, I have to learn defensive striking as described, and I really have to find some ways to bring back my Judo experience( that is going to be hard!!!).


----------



## Blindside

dvcochran said:


> I really like video #2. And I miss this kind of sparring.
> 
> The one thing of note I will mention is the 'weapon control' comment. My Tuhon (Bill McGrath) was more of a realist about this. While it is the lesser of two evils, grabbing a sharp blade was taught to me as a last resort movement. There was more emphasis on getting inside or outside the member and taking control of the wrist.
> If not done with care, padding up can very much give a person a false sense of security that can transfer.
> 
> Great post.


Yes, I generally agree, which is why you see a lot of overwraps to the arms in these matches rather than stick grabs. The tomahawk video you see a bunch of grabbing of the haft because they are tomahawks.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> Nobody can effectively block all the attack.



1. I don't know anyone who has sparred that thinks this.
2. Not all of your attacks will be effective and not all of your attacks will land.


Blindside said:


>


There's that 40° angle that often pops up in martial arts

Thanks for sharing.  I always like seeing footwork.  So many times people will show a video and it will only be the top half


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, if only people learn the fancy moves, they will come out unscated.


None of what you wrote even makes sense, nor does it track to what I wrote.

You keep talking about "fancy moves" but that is a meaningless term and, even then, you seem to be misusing or dramatically misunderstanding what any of it means.

It's not about "fancy," it's about actual training.  One set of fighters were trained and you could tell.  They used movement, strategy, and tactics which kept them safe and respected their weapons and opponent.  The other set clearly had no training and they moved and attacked in such a way that consistently put themselves in danger when they didn't have to be and they had no idea they were doing so.  The fact is, when people with training treat swords like, well, swords instead of sticks, then it changes how they fight and, therefore, the outcomes.

Further, to the other point of my post, your claim that "seems like winner or loser, nobody comes out clean" is not only inaccurate, but easily disproved.   It is unclear if your misstatement is solely due to lack of training or if it includes lack of basic research but, nevertheless, it is wrong.

I don't expect to change your Dunning-Kruger opinion that you don't need to get training, nor do I expect to change your equally fallacious beliefs about the efficacy of training or even the erroneous belief that all participants in a sword fight are going to get "cuts."  It seems pretty clear that you just want rubber-stamps for your preexisting opinions.   I am, however, going to correct those statements because I don't want some lurker to think they're right.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Blindside said:


>


How long does it usually take for students to "find their feet" and to be comfortable to with the footwork used in your system?


----------



## lklawson

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I know almost nothing of swordsmanship, but I find it fascinating.


It's not what the detractors suggest.  Over-all it's not bad but it's not great either.  Most of it is stuff that anyone could could logic out for themselves.  So, to be honest, I don't really think the book serves much of a purpose.  Basically, the person buying that book is paying Elmore to do some very basic thinking for them.  The biggest problem that the book has is that Elmore is the author and he has a lot of baggage.  I don't have a particularly high opinion of him as a person or martial artist and, at the time of the writing of that book, he had very little training.

I was a member of his forum at the time and he posted a leading thread inviting members to talk about how Street Sword was the bestest book ever ever written on the modern use of the sword.  When I disagreed and gave him a few different alternatives, he was less than enthused with me.  




Wing Woo Gar said:


> I have your book, I enjoyed reading it, though i must confess I had to do some additional research to get a better understanding of terms. If I were closer I would love the opportunity to train with you.


Thank you.  It would be a great help to me if you could tell me what terms made you have to do extra work.  I wanted my book to but pretty much explanatory and if you had to go elsewhere to find information to understand, then I missed the mark and need to get better.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Oily Dragon said:


> I have many books on martial arts, and some of them are the best books I've ever read.  That is not one of them.


This is accurate.  It's not a horrible book but it's not really good either.  And it's not really about sword-vs-sword, or even sword-vs-weapon, per se.  It's kinda more about sword-vs-home-invader.  




Oily Dragon said:


> If it makes you feel better, I dislike martial artists in general, but I make exceptions and you're one of them so far.


Thank you.



Oily Dragon said:


> For sword stuff I tend to stick to the oldest material I can find, which tends to be the best.  I may have mentioned it before but I train in the Chinese Moon Flowing Saber, Double Sabers, but using Niten Doraku's methods as an underlying framework.  Because of this, I was able to avoid even considering that book.  Because I have little money to spare and I'd rather spend it on lessons with humans rather than dead wood and Kindle e-books.


Now-days, my sword study focuses mostly on 19th Century U.S./European military saber and cutlass.  I've entered into a one-sided bro-mance with Tuohy (being that he's dead and all).   

I keep meaning to do more work in la Verdadera Destreza and Meyer's Dusak, but just haven't forced myself to set aside the time for it.

I do like both 19th C. European dueling saber and the earlier Cut-and-Thrust single-handed sword methods because they both track really well onto Bowie Knife.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Blindside

JowGaWolf said:


> How long does it usually take for students to "find their feet" and to be comfortable to with the footwork used in your system?


And be utilized under pressure? Three years or so.  Defensive footwork tends to take longer than offensive.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Blindside said:


> And be utilized under pressure?


This is a good distinction


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

lklawson said:


> It's not what the detractors suggest.  Over-all it's not bad but it's not great either.  Most of it is stuff that anyone could could logic out for themselves.  So, to be honest, I don't really think the book serves much of a purpose.  Basically, the person buying that book is paying Elmore to do some very basic thinking for them.  The biggest problem that the book has is that Elmore is the author and he has a lot of baggage.  I don't have a particularly high opinion of him as a person or martial artist and, at the time of the writing of that book, he had very little training.
> 
> I was a member of his forum at the time and he posted a leading thread inviting members to talk about how Street Sword was the bestest book ever ever written on the modern use of the sword.  When I disagreed and gave him a few different alternatives, he was less than enthused with me.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.  It would be a great help to me if you could tell me what terms made you have to do extra work.  I wanted my book to but pretty much explanatory and if you had to go elsewhere to find information to understand, then I missed the mark and need to get better.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Not at all, it’s great! I have the hutton books as well, they are far more difficult to absorb since I have no sword training. I think your book is well written and easy to understand for most people, I’m just a tad slow.


----------



## lklawson

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Not at all, it’s great! I have the hutton books as well, they are far more difficult to absorb since I have no sword training. I think your book is well written and easy to understand for most people, I’m just a tad slow.


OK.  Thanks.  

Yeah, sometimes slogging through pics and the written word for a given technique can be somewhat dry.

I like Hutton's stuff for the most part.  I have a fencing Maestro friend who says he thinks Hutton's duelling sabre is a good system.  From him, that was a very solid endorsement.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Alan0354

lklawson said:


> None of what you wrote even makes sense, nor does it track to what I wrote.
> 
> You keep talking about "fancy moves" but that is a meaningless term and, even then, you seem to be misusing or dramatically misunderstanding what any of it means.
> 
> It's not about "fancy," it's about actual training.  One set of fighters were trained and you could tell.  They used movement, strategy, and tactics which kept them safe and respected their weapons and opponent.  The other set clearly had no training and they moved and attacked in such a way that consistently put themselves in danger when they didn't have to be and they had no idea they were doing so.  The fact is, when people with training treat swords like, well, swords instead of sticks, then it changes how they fight and, therefore, the outcomes.
> 
> Further, to the other point of my post, your claim that "seems like winner or loser, nobody comes out clean" is not only inaccurate, but easily disproved.   It is unclear if your misstatement is solely due to lack of training or if it includes lack of basic research but, nevertheless, it is wrong.
> 
> I don't expect to change your Dunning-Kruger opinion that you don't need to get training, nor do I expect to change your equally fallacious beliefs about the efficacy of training or even the erroneous belief that all participants in a sword fight are going to get "cuts."  It seems pretty clear that you just want rubber-stamps for your preexisting opinions.   I am, however, going to correct those statements because I don't want some lurker to think they're right.


Sure, like I said, I don't agree with ANYTHING you said. No need to respond.


----------



## Blindside

Alan0354 said:


> Sure, like I said, I don't agree with ANYTHING you said. No need to respond.



Then you are missing a great resource.  Your loss.


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> 1. I don't know anyone who has sparred that thinks this.
> 2. Not all of your attacks will be effective and not all of your attacks will land.
> 
> There's that 40° angle that often pops up in martial arts
> 
> Thanks for sharing.  I always like seeing footwork.  So many times people will show a video and it will only be the top half


I sparred in kick boxing for years and I say that. It depends on how fast and how good the opponent is. Don't count on it. Like most boxing and even MMA people, head movement, foot work and parrying type of simple technique is the best option. Not any fancy moves.

For bare knuckle, Like practice punching, then immediate move the head away, hold the hands up to protect the head, step away using footwork. A lot of boxing people are doing it, just move the head away right after punching. You do NOT wait for the attack comes, then use "special" blocking to block the attack. People's reflex is not that fast to see the attack coming, then use technique to block.

It is so laughable of like TKD or Wing Chung to raise the forearm and elbow to block the punch, all the fancy sticky hands. WHAT A WASTE OF TIME EVEN TO PRACTICE THOSE. You get killed using that. My teacher did not even make us practice any of those. We only practice katas 2 weeks before belt test.

Head movement, footwork, parrying.


----------



## Alan0354

Blindside said:


>


I yet to watch this, too busy, just blew the tire and I am busy shopping. I'll be back.

Thanks


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Alan0354 said:


> One think I notice more and more, also watching your videos. There's NO really good way to block the strikes reliably. You both landed on each other. It's NOT like people want to make others to believe you can have defensive blocking that are very effective and you can block the incoming strikes reliably.


It depends on what you mean by “block the strikes reliably.” No, you can”t count on being able stand there and block every shot from a skilled and determined opponent. You also can’t  count on being able to avoid every shot from a skilled and determined opponent through dodging or footwork or any other method. The goal is to have a good enough defense and offense so that you will land a disabling blow before your opponent does. That defense will include blocks, distancing, angled footwork, grappling, and the threat of pre-emptive offense. I think you denigrated blocks in a few other posts. Trust me, any experienced stick fighter will have blocking skills as an important tool in his/her repertoire. In the video you are reacting to, Lamont would have been hit a lot more if he didn’t have some good blocking skill.

That said, for your stated purpose in training blocking will be much less important. When you’re fighting with a stick against an opponent armed with another long weapon, then you have to be able to block. I believe you have said that your goal is to be able to defend against an unarmed attacker. In that scenario the easier option is just to hit the attacker as they try to reach you.


----------



## Alan0354

Tony Dismukes said:


> It depends on what you mean by “block the strikes reliably.” No, you can”t count on being able stand there and block every shot from a skilled and determined opponent. You also can’t  count on being able to avoid every shot from a skilled and determined opponent through dodging or footwork or any other method. The goal is to have a good enough defense and offense so that you will land a disabling blow before your opponent does. That defense will include blocks, distancing, angled footwork, grappling, and the threat of pre-emptive offense. I think you denigrated blocks in a few other posts. Trust me, any experienced stick fighter will have blocking skills as an important tool in his/her repertoire. In the video you are reacting to, Lamont would have been hit a lot more if he didn’t have some good blocking skill.
> 
> That said, for your stated purpose in training blocking will be much less important. When you’re fighting with a stick against an opponent armed with another long weapon, then you have to be able to block. I believe you have said that your goal is to be able to defend against an unarmed attacker. In that scenario the easier option is just to hit the attacker as they try to reach you.


Thanks for your response.

Yes, I have no intention to get into stick fight match, just day to day self defense, Just want the fastest to get the best result. Also being practice on my own, there is no good way to practice blocking. You really need an opponent to do that.

That said, I am green in sticks, but I am not totally green in MA, . I did a few years of kick boxing type (supposedly TKD, but my teacher did not do traditional TKD moves, maybe that's the reason I am not into those tradition moves). I did quite a bit of sparring. Our teacher stressed on very simple defensive moves....footwork, head movement, parrying type of simple defensive technique, technique that close to the natural response of normal people. eg, if *something flying towards your face, you duck*!!! you move your head away, you swat the object with you hand. Those are the natural instinct, we are BUILD on this natural instinct. You can see in MMA and sparring, nobody use those defensive move taught in the TMA. I just relate this knowledge into stick practice. Meaning I tend to move back, to the side right after I strike regardless. Hoping this will get away from the counter attack. I practice moving around to make it harder for the opponent. I was also taught when retreating, throw punches or kicks as I retreat. This is NOT about landing a strike, it's to disrupt the attacker's sequence, also you might block some in coming punches or kicks. ( I really think that's what happens a lot of time in sparring, people just brag about blocking the punches or kicks where the truth is you throw your hands out, you are going to catch something some times!!!)

Then I concentrate in hitting hard, closing the distance and hit, then moving out after the hitting sequence. I practice 2 to 3 hits in one attack so if I miss the first, I still have follow up.

Since I talked on this thread, I learn the fight can turn to close in fighting, so I practice switching between strike and thrusting. And* I am thinking about if the fight get too close, I just drop the stick and use elbows, knees to fight.* I saw the video of Lamont Glass fight, seems like if the opponent want to get close in, hanging onto the cane/stick might be a *disadvantage* as it tie up one hand(for me is two hands). So maybe dropping the cane and go bare knuckle might be better off. I do practice elbows on heavy bags a lot and knee the heavy bag, so it's not a very hard transition from cane to that.

Let me know what do you think about dropping the  cane and go bare knuckles if the attacker gets to my face. I definitely feel more comfortable doing it bare hand than with the stick. I am still trying to think how I can draw from almost a year of Judo when I was very young. That might be hard. Thinking of it the guy is really at my face, I just reach for his waste and to a Hip Throw of Judo!!! That.....I don't have confidence, it's been over 50 years since I learn Judo!!!

Thanks


----------



## Alan0354

Alan0354 said:


> I must be hitting harder after a week practicing body motion!! I just hit the bag today, look at my thumb, a big bruise. I train on heavy bags twice a week consistently(can't affort to break the heavy bag!!). Last time was Sunday, everything was usual. This morning, after half a set, it was very painful already and I have to switch to more thrusting and less striking.
> View attachment 27934
> 
> I did not change the way I hold the cane, it's the same cane, it even have foam covered handle. I did not take time off lately, so it's not because of my hand is out of shape. I never have problem even doing multiple sets at one time. Today, I have to stop after one set only as it was painful. I saw it later on and have to take a picture. It might not show that well, it's a pretty dark bruise!!!
> 
> I hope this is the sign I am hitting harder with the body motion!!! I did not even try to hit harder than usual....At least I did not intend to. Hopefully this is a good sign that I am doing it right.


It is strange, now the bruise spread:







Just one set of 7:30. It's* not painful*. We'll see, next time hitting the bag will be Sunday.


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## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> It is strange, now the bruise spread:
> View attachment 27942View attachment 27943
> 
> Just one set of 7:30. It's* not painful*. We'll see, next time hitting the bag will be Sunday.


Does the knuckle of your thumb normally stick out like that?  Does your right hand look ike that? Looks like something is out of place.   Sprained thumb?

Not sure if I would be hitting any bags if I had bruising on my thumb like that, even if it's just a bruise.


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## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> Sure, like I said, I don't agree with ANYTHING you said. No need to respond.


You "disagree" with actual video proof, just like you "disagree" with actual court cases, merely because you don't like it and would really really like to believe something else?  So the plan is to stick your fingers in your ears while chanting, "I can't hear you"???

OK.  Let us know how that cognitive dissonance works out for you.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> Like most boxing and even MMA people, head movement, foot work and parrying type of simple technique is the best option. Not any fancy moves.


You and I don't have the same definition for fancy.  Up to this point, a lot of the things that you say are fancy aren't.  Most of what you have been pointing out is either an advance technique or a technique you don't understand.





I used to use upward blacks all the time when sparring and that's when I relied on my Karate skill set.   I wouldn't have any problems using them today.  I can use the upward block to jam my forearm into a person's face, use it against an incoming punch.,  or use it to pin a punch.
You make the assumption that a technique has only one use / one application.

A lot of the techniques in Kata and Chinese forms will have multiple applications for the same technique.

Edit: For me rising blocks make more sense and are easier to work, when used as an offensive tool instead of a strictly defensive one.  I don't ever remember me waiting for a punch just to use a rising block.  All of my rising blocks have been used to clear the way.  If my opponent doesn't punch then I use the force from raising my arm to smash my opponents face with my forearm or elbow depending on what end he's on.  This impairs his vision and allows me the get in the punch that I usually throw when doing a rising block.

If you are just standing there waiting for a punch then the rising block isn't going to work with a lot of success.  It's not fancy, you just have to use it correctly.


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## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> It is so laughable of like TKD or Wing Chung to raise the forearm and elbow to block the punch, all the fancy sticky hands. WHAT A WASTE OF TIME EVEN TO PRACTICE THOSE. You get killed using that. My teacher did not even make us practice any of those. We only practice katas 2 weeks before belt test.


Because your assumption wrong and it was commonly done in the era when bare knuckle boxing was the way you boxed?  Maybe that's why?  Carl Cestari called it "the Vampire Guard" because it reminded him of Bela Lugosi sweeping Dracula's cape in front of his face.

















Even general "karate-like" parrying was common.









































There are, literally, hundreds more:


			https://www.martialtalk.com/media/the-swing-mike-donovan-1893.25343/full


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

lklawson said:


> Because your assumption wrong and it was commonly done in the era when bare knuckle boxing was the way you boxed?  Maybe that's why?  Carl Cestari called it "the Vampire Guard" because it reminded him of Bela Lugosi sweeping Dracula's cape in front of his face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even general "karate-like" parrying was common.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are, literally, hundreds more:
> 
> 
> https://www.martialtalk.com/media/the-swing-mike-donovan-1893.25343/full


Okay, but what is with the shorts in this picture?


----------



## lklawson

JowGaWolf said:


> You and I don't have the same definition for fancy.  Up to this point, a lot of the things that you say are fancy aren't.  Most of what you have been pointing out is either an advance technique or a technique you don't understand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used to use upward blacks all the time when sparring and that's when I relied on my Karate skill set.   I wouldn't have any problems using them today.  I can use the upward block to jam my forearm into a person's face, use it against an incoming punch.,  or use it to pin a punch.
> You make the assumption that a technique has only one use / one application.
> 
> A lot of the techniques in Kata and Chinese forms will have multiple applications for the same technique.


I've been arguing for years that the "traditional" karate-style two-step blocks (High, Middle, and Low) are actually misunderstood.  The first step where you "chamber" the block isn't a chamber, *it's the block* (well, an inside parry, anyway).  The second part, the hard "block" part is actually a ripost (counter-strike) with a backfist.  So someone punches at your face and you open-palm parry the punch and then backfist with the same hand.

I first realized it when I was reading Jack Dempsey's _Championship Fighting_ boxing manual.   The technique is seen in plenty of other bare knuckle boxing material but Dempsey liked (taught) to bring your fists up and out, leaving a pretty clear path to your face between them.  This baits the other person into punching at your face and you know it's coming.  You swat it away and ripost with a backfist.  It works super sweet.  You just have to pay attention to someone who doesn't take the bait and wants to throw body blows and rib shots.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Okay, but what is with the shorts in this picture?
> View attachment 27944


Yeah, the Daisy Dukes are definitely not what modern "manly men" think of for boxing.

I guess they stayed cool.  No air conditioning back then.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## JowGaWolf

lklawson said:


> This baits the other person into punching at your face and you know it's coming.


You could probably write a book entirely on how to bait someone in martial arts or show the techniques that have use it.  It's some pretty sneaky stuff and if you show it, without explaining it, people will say "I'll just punch you in the face." which is exactly what the martial artists wants.  "a punch directed at his face." The punch that he knows is coming.   

That's when the "Art" comes into play.  The understanding of human behavior and body mechanics at that level is amazing to me.


----------



## lklawson

JowGaWolf said:


> You could probably write a book entirely on how to bait someone in martial arts or show the techniques that have use it.  It's some pretty sneaky stuff and if you show it, without explaining it, people will say "I'll just punch you in the face." which is exactly what the martial artists wants.  "a punch directed at his face." The punch that he knows is coming.
> 
> That's when the "Art" comes into play.  The understanding of human behavior and body mechanics at that level is amazing to me.


Muhammed Ali would have been the dude to write that book.  

He knew every trick in that book, from the basic to the sophisticated "long game."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Dirty Dog

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Okay, but what is with the shorts in this picture?
> View attachment 27944


Combat wedgie. Very effective.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

lklawson said:


> OK.  Thanks.
> 
> Yeah, sometimes slogging through pics and the written word for a given technique can be somewhat dry.
> 
> I like Hutton's stuff for the most part.  I have a fencing Maestro friend who says he thinks Hutton's duelling sabre is a good system.  From him, that was a very solid endorsement.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Interesting. That dueling Sabre is the stuff that grabbed me. I like watching Sabre fencing most of all. I don’t know what im looking at most times, and it is FAST. I find the movements with a Sabre more comparable to what I do.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Dirty Dog said:


> Combat wedgie. Very effective.


Lmao!


----------



## JowGaWolf

Floyd Mayweather
This is how I use it the upward block sometimes.  There's more than one application of it.






Floyd using it again.  In this clip he lands a punch in the opening that is created by the rising block.





Rising block used against a jab.





Rising Block under the chin. This is close to my application of it.  If the Boxer doesn't throw a jab, I still follow through with the rising block sending it towards the face.  It will then cause your opponent's head to be backwards.  At this point your opponent is blind to your attacks. and lacks the structure to land solid attacks on you.





The biggest difference is that in the pictures above it's being used defensively like a shield.  The way that I use it would be illegal in Boxing, because I would use my forearm and elbow to use the rising block as a strike.   As you can see.  It's not fancy.  Lots of fighting systems have a rising blocks and use rising blocks.


There is a difference between practicing technique in form/kata,  and technique in application.  When a form or kata is done, it's pure. Pure meaning it focuses only on the technique and not any of the elements that you have to deal with when fighting.  It simplifies the action of that technique.  Once that technique is programmed into your mind and body.  You'll move into the application learning environment so you can learn about everything else that the form/kata removed.   Because the technique is programmed into your mind and body.  You don't have actually about it as you sparring.  You know how it feels and you will be able to see and feel when you can use it vs. trying to think "Can I use this technique now?"


----------



## JowGaWolf

Dirty Dog said:


> Combat wedgie. Very effective.


Naw man.  you're full of poo poo. lol


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> Does the knuckle of your thumb normally stick out like that?  Does your right hand look ike that? Looks like something is out of place.   Sprained thumb?
> 
> Not sure if I would be hitting any bags if I had bruising on my thumb like that, even if it's just a bruise.


yes, it is normal like this. I never have problem with my thumb. Even when I was hitting the bag last Sunday, it was not the joint that is painful, it's clearly the compression on the part where the bruise first appeared that hurt(between the two joints, not the joint).

Well, I got to hit the bag to get the strength. I'll get over it, I just posted because it never happened like this for almost a year of regular hitting the bag until I started practicing using whole body to strike. I think it must be the added force that caused that. Just like punching the pole, you get used to it and it will be that much better later.

Thanks


----------



## Alan0354

lklawson said:


> You "disagree" with actual video proof, just like you "disagree" with actual court cases, merely because you don't like it and would really really like to believe something else?  So the plan is to stick your fingers in your ears while chanting, "I can't hear you"???
> 
> OK.  Let us know how that cognitive dissonance works out for you.


Just let it go, don't try to pick a fight. Put me on ignore. PLEASE. Don't you have better things to do?



*To Dirty dog:*
Are you the moderator? You gave thumbs up to his insult against me. I know you agree with him. But at the same time you ARE the moderator. Are you suppose to maintain a friendly environment on this forum regardless of your own opinion. It is him that started the insult from day one. I really too busy to argue. There is a difference between disagreement vs down right INSULT.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> Well, I got to hit the bag to get the strength.


Practicing on an injury is never good.  It would be better to give it 3 or 4 days to heal and then practice on an uninjured hand.  It will be interesting to see how this turns out for you.  Practice or No Practice.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Alan0354 said:


> Just let it go, don't try to pick a fight. Put me on ignore. PLEASE. Don't you have better things to do?
> 
> 
> 
> *To Dirty dog:*
> Are you the moderator? You gave thumbs up to his insult against me. I know you agree with him. But at the same time you ARE the moderator. Are you suppose to maintain a friendly environment on this forum regardless of your own opinion. It is him that started the insult from day one. I really too busy to argue. There is a difference between disagreement vs down right INSULT.


I don't see an insult in that post. Crass yes, but he's not insulting you. 

If there was an insult on day one, there is a report option you can use, so we're all aware and can take action to it. I only skim threads nowadays personally after the first/second page, so there might be much that I miss. Some of the other mods are the same, or will read full threads but only certain ones.


----------



## Oily Dragon

Alan0354 said:


> Just let it go, don't try to pick a fight. Put me on ignore. PLEASE. Don't you have better things to do?
> 
> 
> 
> *To Dirty dog:*
> Are you the moderator? You gave thumbs up to his insult against me. I know you agree with him. But at the same time you ARE the moderator. Are you suppose to maintain a friendly environment on this forum regardless of your own opinion. It is him that started the insult from day one. I really too busy to argue. There is a difference between disagreement vs down right INSULT.



Oh how I wish I could thumbs down this post.

You just said don't try to pick fights, but suddenly you're all full of the usual "MMA works TMA don't" claptrap, in a thread about cane fight practice.  I call that picking fights.  Be careful, a lot of TMA folks here are actually skilled. I can tell.

Skidoosh, man.  Please, stay on topic, and know that if you badmouth Chinese kung Fu like that again, I may have to get terse.  Don't make me get terse.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Okay, but what is with the shorts in this picture?
> View attachment 27944




The bigger the Bow / ribbon on the belt the smaller the shorts? 😇


----------



## Alan0354

Hi

I rush to make this video even though I am not ready. Just want to show what I have been practicing lately. I change quite a bit because of the videos on the close quarter stuffs, so I added into practice a lot more thrusting, parallel cane to push/thrust to the body or face. I start adding kicks. On the second part, I change to a lighter padded stick because I meant to throw it down. Don't want to throw the heavy cane and break something. 

I am thinking about in close quarter, it's better to lose the cane and start using knee and elbows. Holding onto the cane will hinder more than help. 






From rushing, I know everything is half A$$ as I cannot concentrate in body movement or do anything precise. Just want to rush to show what I am practicing. Please comment.

Thanks


----------



## Alan0354

Oily Dragon said:


> Oh how I wish I could thumbs down this post.
> 
> You just said don't try to pick fights, but suddenly you're all full of the usual "MMA works TMA don't" claptrap, in a thread about cane fight practice.  I call that picking fights.  Be careful, a lot of TMA folks here are actually skilled. I can tell.
> 
> Skidoosh, man.  Please, stay on topic, and know that if you badmouth Chinese kung Fu like that again, I may have to get terse.  Don't make me get terse.


Sorry to offend you, I don't mean to. I thought it is at least better to insult the particular person to their face. I thought that's the way not to direct confrontation.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> Just let it go, don't try to pick a fight. Put me on ignore. PLEASE. Don't you have better things to do?
> 
> 
> 
> *To Dirty dog:*
> Are you the moderator? You gave thumbs up to his insult against me. I know you agree with him. But at the same time you ARE the moderator. Are you suppose to maintain a friendly environment on this forum regardless of your own opinion. It is him that started the insult from day one. I really too busy to argue. There is a difference between disagreement vs down right INSULT.


I think you wouldn't get such a hard time if you just state that  "this is the what you want to learn and they way you want to learn it."  I think that is something everyone understand

You don't "get into trouble" until you start talking about what's Fancy and what doesn't work.  And often times is about stuff that other people actually use in sparring.  It's like someone saying in the chat that Long Fist punching techniques don't work. Anyone that says that will get a lecture from me, because it's something that I use with ease so I know it works.  

I also think you'll be ok if you say that some techniques work for you and some do not.  That's better than just saying "that the technique is crap just because it doesn't work for you."  But don't invalidate a technique or system just because it doesn't work for you or fit your preference.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> I am thinking about in close quarter, it's better to lose the cane and start using knee and elbows.


It totally depends on the person holding the stick and who will pick it up after you throw it down.  Because of how I train with the staff I know that I'm not likely to throw the stick down.  I have a lot more options to go through before that is a decision.

Everyone is different and has different knowledge and skill sets for close range fighting and grappling.  If you are going to throw it down the cane then you need to think about the best way to do it.  Also think about what to do if your attacker picks up the cane you just threw down.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan0354 said:


> From rushing, I know everything is half A$$ as I cannot concentrate in body movement or do anything precise.


I don't think it looks like that.  When I watch the video I thought to myself that you have a lot going on..  Maybe too much.  Maybe focus on doing just 2 or 3 things then build on top of that.  Like right now you are going at a fast pace in terms of things you are implementing.

You don't look like an easy target so that's good.  Hopefully that will last a long time.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Alan0354 said:


> Just let it go, don't try to pick a fight. Put me on ignore. PLEASE. Don't you have better things to do?


Or, since it seems important to you, YOU could put HIM on ignore.


Alan0354 said:


> *To Dirty dog:*
> Are you the moderator? You gave thumbs up to his insult against me. I know you agree with him. But at the same time you ARE the moderator. Are you suppose to maintain a friendly environment on this forum regardless of your own opinion. It is him that started the insult from day one. I really too busy to argue. There is a difference between disagreement vs down right INSULT.


What insult? You're doing exactly what he describes. If you don't want to interact with him, ignore him. Pretty simple.


----------



## Oily Dragon

Alan0354 said:


> Sorry to offend you, I don't mean to. I thought it is at least better to insult the particular person to their face. I thought that's the way not to direct confrontation.


None taken.

"fancy technique" is a common refrain from people with little or no CMA training.  When I ask "please name the fancy techniques", 10 times out of 10 they can't name a single actual technique name from any actual system, just some abstract concept, leading me to believe they are arguing third hand knowledge from their sphincter.

Even Joe Rogan has seen the light on this one.  It's only "fancy" til you see it work, then it's not so fancy.

This is what real fancy stick work looks like.  Totally unnecessary in combat, the high toss and cartwheel catch.  If you try this in a real fight, you're probably gonna die.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

lklawson said:


> This is accurate.  It's not a horrible book but it's not really good either.  And it's not really about sword-vs-sword, or even sword-vs-weapon, per se.  It's kinda more about sword-vs-home-invader.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> Now-days, my sword study focuses mostly on 19th Century U.S./European military saber and cutlass.  I've entered into a one-sided bro-mance with Tuohy (being that he's dead and all).
> 
> I keep meaning to do more work in la Verdadera Destreza and Meyer's Dusak, but just haven't forced myself to set aside the time for it.
> 
> I do like both 19th C. European dueling saber and the earlier Cut-and-Thrust single-handed sword methods because they both track really well onto Bowie Knife.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


When I reread this I said dammit! You even like the same swords I like. Too bad for me I guess. CMA is my whole deal but I have some strange feeling I would really dig training Sabre.


----------



## Alan0354

JowGaWolf said:


> I think you wouldn't get such a hard time if you just state that  "this is the what you want to learn and they way you want to learn it."  I think that is something everyone understand
> 
> You don't "get into trouble" until you start talking about what's Fancy and what doesn't work.  And often times is about stuff that other people actually use in sparring.  It's like someone saying in the chat that Long Fist punching techniques don't work. Anyone that says that will get a lecture from me, because it's something that I use with ease so I know it works.
> 
> I also think you'll be ok if you say that some techniques work for you and some do not.  That's better than just saying "that the technique is crap just because it doesn't work for you."  But don't invalidate a technique or system just because it doesn't work for you or fit your preference.


OK.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

lklawson said:


> I've been arguing for years that the "traditional" karate-style two-step blocks (High, Middle, and Low) are actually misunderstood.  The first step where you "chamber" the block isn't a chamber, *it's the block* (well, an inside parry, anyway).  The second part, the hard "block" part is actually a ripost (counter-strike) with a backfist.  So someone punches at your face and you open-palm parry the punch and then backfist with the same hand.
> 
> I first realized it when I was reading Jack Dempsey's _Championship Fighting_ boxing manual. The technique is seen in plenty of other bare knuckle boxing material but Dempsey liked (taught) to bring your fists up and out, leaving a pretty clear path to your face between them. This baits the other person into punching at your face and you know it's coming. You swat it away and ripost with a backfist. It works super sweet. You just have to pay attention to someone who doesn't take the bait and wants to throw body blows and rib shots.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Lots of notes you can play in this song. I have several that I use that unskilled eyes would not define as block or strike outside of the application they experienced. To me, these things are neither and both, they are motion, they are dependent on whole body engagement to be useful. Perhaps this is why he thinks they don’t work.


----------



## wab25

Alan0354 said:


> I am thinking about in close quarter, it's better to lose the cane and start using knee and elbows. Holding onto the cane will hinder more than help.


Hanbo would be a good art to look at for the close quarters part. Its all about using the hanbo as a lever. They have many moves for if the other guy grabs your hanbo, how you can use their grip against them for joint lock, take down, choke or off balance. They also use more of the stick than just the ends... which is useful when the other guy closes distance. Yes, one of their techniques is to let go of the hanbo and use your hands... but there is a lot in between.

They also have different ways of striking and thrusting, that I have found very useful... especially the closer the other guy gets.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Alan0354 said:


> Sorry to offend you, I don't mean to. I thought it is at least better to insult the particular person to their face. I thought that's the way not to direct confrontation.


Wait, what? You think insulting someone to their face is a way to avoid confrontation?
That seems a very...confusing...view. In my experience, that is one of the most common ways to incite a confrontation.


----------



## Dirty Dog

lklawson said:


> I've been arguing for years that the "traditional" karate-style two-step blocks (High, Middle, and Low) are actually misunderstood.  The first step where you "chamber" the block isn't a chamber, *it's the block* (well, an inside parry, anyway).  The second part, the hard "block" part is actually a ripost (counter-strike) with a backfist.  So someone punches at your face and you open-palm parry the punch and then backfist with the same hand.


I've taught students for years that a movement is just a movement. We give them names to aid in teaching, but the drawback to that practice is that people start to think the name defines the purpose. 
A movement can be a chamber, a block, a strike, a grapple... it just depends on the circumstances.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Dirty Dog said:


> I've taught students for years that a movement is just a movement. We give them names to aid in teaching, but the drawback to that practice is that people start to think the name defines the purpose.
> A movement can be a chamber, a block, a strike, a grapple... it just depends on the circumstances.


Yes. This.


----------



## Rich Parsons

JowGaWolf said:


> I think you wouldn't get such a hard time if you just state that  "this is the what you want to learn and they way you want to learn it."  I think that is something everyone understand
> 
> You don't "get into trouble" until you start talking about what's Fancy and what doesn't work.  And often times is about stuff that other people actually use in sparring.  It's like someone saying in the chat that Long Fist punching techniques don't work. Anyone that says that will get a lecture from me, because it's something that I use with ease so I know it works.
> 
> I also think you'll be ok if you say that some techniques work for you and some do not.  That's better than just saying "that the technique is crap just because it doesn't work for you."  But don't invalidate a technique or system just because it doesn't work for you or fit your preference.



Some tell me that one cannot spar close quarters with a stick / cane either. 
That is my preferred range. 
And if told it is impossible I reply that it is the area I prefer and I don't use anything fancy other than proper body mechanics.


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> Just let it go, don't try to pick a fight. Put me on ignore. PLEASE. Don't you have better things to do?


Why would I put you on ignore? You don't make me angry and I don't dislike you. You just keep writing things that are demonstrably inaccurate. I'm sorry that you don't like being corrected when you write things that are just flat wrong but you seem like a grown up and can probably figure out how to admit when you are wrong.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Rich Parsons said:


> Some tell me that one cannot spar close quarters with a stick / cane either.
> That is my preferred range.
> And if told it is impossible I reply that it is the area I prefer and I don't use anything fancy other than proper body mechanics.


I'm still sitting here trying to figure out how to respond to it lol.   The only thing I can think is that I'm going to use this as a template for the next time someone says I should do MMA lol.


----------



## drop bear

Alan0354 said:


> I am thinking about in close quarter, it's better to lose the cane and start using knee and elbows. Holding onto the cane will hinder more than help



You can thai grapple, collar tie and underhook with a stick in your hand.

You can even theoretically use it then for leverage.

You could probably hit a double or single leg with a stick.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> You can even theoretically use it then for leverage.


Close range fighting with a staff is all about leverage and using the staff to pry your attacker off you.  I most cases the strike and the leverage work is all the same movement.  Once you get your attacker off you, the you can increase distance and continue to hit them with the staff.  But you have to know the basics swings for the staff, and you have to use 2 hands.  There's now way to create the leverage without the other hand assisting.  There's no way to hook the staff around limbs without using 2 hands.

Using only one hand at this range doesn't provide the stability.  It would be like trying to sew the end of a flag blowing in the wind with one hand.  You only need to about 4 or 5 inches of staff at the end of your grip to create a good hook.  The hook that I'm referring too is not the hook of a cane.  The hook that I'm referring to is the hook that's is created when you grab the staff. 

When we leave a few inches at the end of our grip, it creates a hook.  Think of this man's arm as the cane and that small of the stick has the handle / hook. The leverage will come from the larger end of stick.  In this picture there's no way for him to create it unless he pulls or pushes on the longer end of the stick. The only way he can do that is to use the other hand.  






When he uses 2 hands, he'll be able to push or pull from either end of the stick. Most times you'll have the opportunity to push and pull at the same time.  Being able to slide the hands along the stick would be critical because it's the only way to  adjust the hands without fully releasing the stick.  This means that two hands are always stabilizing the stick /staff which is great for when there is a lot of heavy contact, like what you'll get when in grappling range.  Sliding the hand also allows you adjust the leverage so that it's easier for you to control the staff and harder for your opponent. 

Even if a person doesn't have interest in using a stick or staff, it's a fun thing to experience how all of it works.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> Close range fighting with a staff is all about leverage and using the staff to pry your attacker off you.  I most cases the strike and the leverage work is all the same movement.  Once you get your attacker off you, the you can increase distance and continue to hit them with the staff.  But you have to know the basics swings for the staff, and you have to use 2 hands.  There's now way to create the leverage without the other hand assisting.  There's no way to hook the staff around limbs without using 2 hands.
> 
> Using only one hand at this range doesn't provide the stability.  It would be like trying to sew the end of a flag blowing in the wind with one hand.  You only need to about 4 or 5 inches of staff at the end of your grip to create a good hook.  The hook that I'm referring too is not the hook of a cane.  The hook that I'm referring to is the hook that's is created when you grab the staff.
> 
> When we leave a few inches at the end of our grip, it creates a hook.  Think of this man's arm as the cane and that small of the stick has the handle / hook. The leverage will come from the larger end of stick.  In this picture there's no way for him to create it unless he pulls or pushes on the longer end of the stick. The only way he can do that is to use the other hand.
> 
> View attachment 27949
> 
> When he uses 2 hands, he'll be able to push or pull from either end of the stick. Most times you'll have the opportunity to push and pull at the same time.  Being able to slide the hands along the stick would be critical because it's the only way to  adjust the hands without fully releasing the stick.  This means that two hands are always stabilizing the stick /staff which is great for when there is a lot of heavy contact, like what you'll get when in grappling range.  Sliding the hand also allows you adjust the leverage so that it's easier for you to control the staff and harder for your opponent.
> 
> Even if a person doesn't have interest in using a stick or staff, it's a fun thing to experience how all of it works.



Yeah. But I am talking the most simple concepts for using a stick if someone gets to close. 

Which should basically be thai grapple and throw knees and elbows.


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But I am talking the most simple concepts for using a stick if someone gets to close.
> 
> Which should basically be thai grapple and throw knees and elbows.


Usually if one person has a stick/cane and you get to close quarters it doesn't get that close as at least one hand of each person is occupied on the weapon.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But I am talking the most simple concepts for using a stick if someone gets to close.
> 
> Which should basically be thai grapple and throw knees and elbows.


The things I was speaking about are simple concepts. If you are picturing behind the neck and complex locks with a stick then you are picturing the wrong things.  If I have a stick close range then you won't get the clinch.  You won't  get the knees. Especially if the knees come after the clinch. 
  This is something I would love to give you the experience of trying to deal with.  If your clinch is under the stick then I can hit you in the face and head with the stick using full force.  If it's under your clinch then your ribs are exposed.  Knees won't  get past the stick at all. If your clinch is above the stick.  If a knee comes up then I just need to push the staff downward.

When you use two hands to hold on me the you don't have anything interfering with the stick so. I only need to keep my structure for strikes an turning/ twisting.  Now if you can break my structure then you'll have a chance to pull it off.  You also have a good chance to pull it off if the person doesn't know how to use the stick with grappling.


----------



## drop bear

Blindside said:


> Usually if one person has a stick/cane and you get to close quarters it doesn't get that close as at least one hand of each person is occupied on the weapon.



I was thinking unarmed vs stick and them just rushing eating shots and clinching.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Oily Dragon said:


> Such great footwork.  I mean the sticks are cool but the stepping is cooler and more interesting a lot of the time.
> 
> 
> Obligatory funny.
> 
> Yeah, carrying a sword around in 2022 in public, you're gonna have a bad time.  Especially if you write a book about it.
> 
> What I never understood was why he'd make the cover of a "Street Sword" book in the middle of snowy woodlands, before we even get to that grip...
> 
> View attachment 27935



Oh please don't bring Phil into this, he use to post here, and this might bring him back....and nobody wants that...at least those of us who have been here awhile


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> The things I was speaking about are simple concepts. If you are picturing behind the neck and complex locks with a stick then you are picturing the wrong things.  If I have a stick close range then you won't get the clinch.  You won't  get the knees. Especially if the knees come after the clinch.
> This is something I would love to give you the experience of trying to deal with.  If your clinch is under the stick then I can hit you in the face and head with the stick using full force.  If it's under your clinch then your ribs are exposed.  Knees won't  get past the stick at all. If your clinch is above the stick.  If a knee comes up then I just need to push the staff downward.



If the clinch breaks your posture then you won't be able to use the stick very effectively. 

A common stick disarm is just overhooking the stick.


----------



## Blindside

JowGaWolf said:


> The things I was speaking about are simple concepts. If you are picturing behind the neck and complex locks with a stick then you are picturing the wrong things.  If I have a stick close range then you won't get the clinch.  You won't  get the knees. Especially if the knees come after the clinch.
> This is something I would love to give you the experience of trying to deal with.  If your clinch is under the stick then I can hit you in the face and head with the stick using full force.  If it's under your clinch then your ribs are exposed.  Knees won't  get past the stick at all. If your clinch is above the stick.  If a knee comes up then I just need to push the staff downward.
> 
> When you use two hands to hold on me the you don't have anything interfering with the stick so. I only need to keep my structure for strikes an turning/ twisting.  Now if you can break my structure then you'll have a chance to pull it off.  You also have a good chance to pull it off if the person doesn't know how to use the stick with grappling.



Got it.  If I was training for self defense I think the most common close quarter issue is a fight over the weapon for exactly the reasons you mention.  I like the stick over the clinch as I will drive it forward into their neck/throat and use it to break their posture, aside from general uncomfortableness of getting it in the throat with a stick.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> I was thinking unarmed vs stick and them just rushing eating shots and clinching.


This works with strikes that are circular. I wouldn't recommend it against linear strikes , pokes, or jabs with a stick. You don't want to eat those. It doesn't take much to make those hurt.  when they land it will not only hurt but will stop forward or delay forward movement which puts you at risk for a follow up hit. After you get poked don't expect the person to be standing in the same position. They are probably taking an angle.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> If the clinch breaks your posture then you won't be able to use the stick very effectively.
> 
> A common stick disarm is just overhooking the stick.


Agreed, but you have to get to the clinch first and that can be difficult depending on where the stick is.  The more skilled the person is with using the stick and defending against people rushing in, then the more difficult it will be.

Here's an example.  I know this works because I use it in long fist and it works with or without a weapon.

I have a stick and you don't.  You are facing me like this, say I goofed and put myself in this situation. In order for you to put me in a clinch, you have to go where my torso is.  If step into a bow stance to the left then I would disrupt your plans to clinch.  Here's what will happen if I quickly bow stance to the left.




1.  I step off center of your rush attack
2.  The bow stance also changes the level at which you were trying to attack (at this point your brain is calculating 2 things from one movement.)
3.  Your eyes will naturally follow the biggest motion, we are hardwired biologically to do so. (Now your body is no longer calculating the smaller stick, but the larger movement.)
4. Because you aren't watching to defend against the stick, I just need to follow through with the swing and it will have a good chance that it will land on your head while I'm in a position that is safe from your clinch.
5.  The bow stance is but for a moment and I can reposition my feet and body position after the strike is finished.

My son is a smarty pants when I train him.  He always thinks he's going to be the technique, even when I say that a technique exploits human behavior.  Even when I tell him what I'm going to do, he is not able to fight it.  

If I toss a small rock at you,  You will watch that small rock like a hawk. You'll be locked into it.  But if I toss a smaller rock and then quickly tossed a large brick then your brain will instantly track that larger brick, that's coming at you.  My body movement to the left is the "large brick."


----------



## JowGaWolf

Blindside said:


> Got it.  If I was training for self defense I think the most common close quarter issue is a fight over the weapon for exactly the reasons you mention.  I like the stick over the clinch as I will drive it forward into their neck/throat and use it to break their posture, aside from general uncomfortableness of getting it in the throat with a stick.


I've been hit in the throat as a kid by accident.  I definitely don't want to experience it with aggression or in training lol. One of the quickest ways to get me to yield.  You wouldn't have to do that much with me.  I would just count it as a loss for letting the stick get there in the first place lol.  Much easier to deal with then trying to fight with a stick on my throat


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> A common stick disarm is just overhooking the stick.


A common stick defense.  Poke you in the face when you try to advance lol


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hockey has some good stick swings.  Mark: 6:33 a Blindside for @Blindside which makes me give that user name a second thought.  Is it just a username or does it hint to something specific?


----------



## Blindside

JowGaWolf said:


> Hockey has some good stick swings.  Mark: 6:33 a Blindside for @Blindside which makes me give that user name a second thought.  Is it just a username or does it hint to something specific?



It refers to the best way to hit someone, your hockey example is a perfect.


----------



## Rich Parsons

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm still sitting here trying to figure out how to respond to it lol.   The only thing I can think is that I'm going to use this as a template for the next time someone says I should do MMA lol.



People engage you use your left to manage, monitor and delay their primary, while they try to do the same with you. 
One can while standing close enough to clinch / hug, blade oneself with the weapon shoulder back and instead of what many use the shoulder as the pivot point, use the elbow and just hammer. Not just with the punyo or the belly, yet with the tip for maximum impact.


----------



## Rich Parsons

drop bear said:


> I was thinking unarmed vs stick and them just rushing eating shots and clinching.



DB,
Yes, many people can eat a strike or two. 
And by rushing in you get most of the people who target long range to have to re-target you. and usually have to move. 
Those who are used to CCB with a handheld weapon just drop the elbow and shorten the range. Body shifting and angling, and maybe a leg drop / step back is in order as well. As all things can vary from situation to situation. 

If they are not really trying the hurt you, then you have a higher chance. Try it with a total noob who has no idea how they could hurt you. Tell them it is ok . Wear a helmet, and acknowledge the impact if it occurs. 

I am not saying you and your experience can't pull it off on many or most. 
And I will be honest as I prefer CCB range and I am approaching unarmed and telling them to not swing on me or I will take it from them and show them how to really use it. *It being a bat, tire iron, golf club, cane, insert other device here* 
So yes I am sure DB can make it work . Is it something one can teach to the average person to be used against the average person. 
I mean this as to say you know enough to understand when NOT to shoot in and eat the shots. 

My point is that if the person with the weapon doesn't care about the safety of other person, they can do great bodily with there strikes. 
No The weapon is not unstoppable. 

I would not empty handed try to do a single or double leg take down on a known BJJ or MMA ground fighter. I would go with my strengths and try to avoid theirs. 

PS: I like your mindset


----------



## drop bear

Rich Parsons said:


> DB,
> Yes, many people can eat a strike or two.
> And by rushing in you get most of the people who target long range to have to re-target you. and usually have to move.
> Those who are used to CCB with a handheld weapon just drop the elbow and shorten the range. Body shifting and angling, and maybe a leg drop / step back is in order as well. As all things can vary from situation to situation.
> 
> If they are not really trying the hurt you, then you have a higher chance. Try it with a total noob who has no idea how they could hurt you. Tell them it is ok . Wear a helmet, and acknowledge the impact if it occurs.
> 
> I am not saying you and your experience can't pull it off on many or most.
> And I will be honest as I prefer CCB range and I am approaching unarmed and telling them to not swing on me or I will take it from them and show them how to really use it. *It being a bat, tire iron, golf club, cane, insert other device here*
> So yes I am sure DB can make it work . Is it something one can teach to the average person to be used against the average person.
> I mean this as to say you know enough to understand when NOT to shoot in and eat the shots.
> 
> My point is that if the person with the weapon doesn't care about the safety of other person, they can do great bodily with there strikes.
> No The weapon is not unstoppable.
> 
> I would not empty handed try to do a single or double leg take down on a known BJJ or MMA ground fighter. I would go with my strengths and try to avoid theirs.
> 
> PS: I like your mindset



I was not so much thinking what I can do, what you can do. But more of a situation a novice cane fighter might find himself in while fighting a ruffian.

Everyone I have seen in sick fights kind of tries to overhook the weapon or rush the guy. Especially if they are getting hit. 

And from there they can take the stick off you. They basically twist and it can come out of your hand. 

Getting the clinch and pushing the stick through for the underhook should slow that process down though. 

Without needing a whole bunch of specialised training to pull off.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> I was not so much thinking what I can do, what you can do. But more of a situation a novice cane fighter might find himself in while fighting a ruffian.
> 
> Everyone I have seen in sick fights kind of tries to overhook the weapon or rush the guy. Especially if they are getting hit.
> 
> And from there they can take the stick off you. They basically twist and it can come out of your hand.
> 
> Getting the clinch and pushing the stick through for the underhook should slow that process down though.
> 
> Without needing a whole bunch of specialised training to pull off.


This is against a horizontal swing of the stick?


----------



## Oily Dragon

drop bear said:


> If the clinch breaks your posture then you won't be able to use the stick very effectively.
> 
> A common stick disarm is just overhooking the stick.


Untrue!

The entire idea of "disarm", I mean.


----------



## lklawson

Oily Dragon said:


> Untrue!
> 
> The entire idea of "disarm", I mean.


I guess it's more accurate to say that a common way to disable and negate the stick is to overhook and wrap the weapon and/or weapon bearing limb.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Blindside

This is just one technique out of a series that deals with the overwrap.


----------



## Esteban Tejedor

Nice cane.  I'm interested in cane fighting as well, as I had a medical aluminum one when I broke my knee.  I took it on a plane, and no problem at all with TSA - I'm 51 and can fake a limp.

Imagine what a guy with a cane who knew how to use it could have done against a couple of guys with box cutters in the confined space of an airplane.

I held off a gangster and three of his friends in a dance bar in Tijuana with big swings until the bouncers finally stepped in.  I think he was mad I was dancing with the prettiest girl there - my wife. So I know big swings work for distance and delaying.  When the police came, I faked my limp again and asked for my cane, and they let me go, and sent the other guys to the police station.

I just joined this forum, and posted on getting attacked with a machete in the Dominican Republic 2 nights ago.  If I had gone with my cane it would have been a very different story.  Large knive vs. cane.  Can you use it as forearm protection, instead of just swinging?


----------



## Blindside

Esteban Tejedor said:


> Large knive vs. cane.  Can you use it as forearm protection, instead of just swinging?



You could lay it along your arm like a tonfa but that really wouldn't be getting the best out of it.  If a close quarters I would prefer to use the cane in two hands (spaced apart, like a little staff) and block with the center of the cane to the forearm, but again the preferred option is to hit them hard when they are far away from you.


----------



## lklawson

Esteban Tejedor said:


> Can you use it as forearm protection, instead of just swinging?


Some of the Irish styles use a grip which allows the allows the lower 1/3 of the cane to protect the forearm, among other things.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## JowGaWolf

Blindside said:


> This is just one technique out of a series that deals with the overwrap.


Thanks for sharing the video.  I appreciated it.  Going to by my side view mirrors  so I won't be blindsided ha ha ha.  In reference to the technique that you showed in the video.  Does the shoulder get locked from that position? It just looks like a long effort to pull the arm out while the stick is at the neck.  I'm curious to know it that shoulder or arm naturally gets locked somewhere during the struggle.


----------



## Blindside

JowGaWolf said:


> Thanks for sharing the video.  I appreciated it.  Going to by my side view mirrors  so I won't be blindsided ha ha ha.  In reference to the technique that you showed in the video.  Does the shoulder get locked from that position? It just looks like a long effort to pull the arm out while the stick is at the neck.  I'm curious to know it that shoulder or arm naturally gets locked somewhere during the struggle.
> 
> View attachment 27956



Not on the one I showed there.  Tuhon Bill here shows two lock variations depending on the depth of the overwrap.


----------



## Ivan

JowGaWolf said:


> Footwork isn't simple.  Ask @Ivan how much hard work he had to put into his "simple footwork"  Many of us have watched him develop over the last few years and he's still working on it.  And the truth is, he'll always be working on it.  Just like everyone else.
> 
> If you want to play tennis then you can't ignore the footwork.
> If you want to play basketball then you can't ignore the footwork
> If you want to dance, then you can't ignore the footwork.
> 
> Fighting and self-defense is no different unless you no longer have the use of your legs or feet.


Yeah, pretty much. I am passionate about all martial arts, but I love boxing more than most right now, because I feel that it’s strict ruleset allowed it to develop the most eloquent and efficient footwork of all martial arts.

I don’t think I will ever have perfect boxing footwork or that anyone has ever attained it; it can always be faster, better, smoother… It’s no easy journey and practice for it is needed daily.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Esteban Tejedor said:


> If I had gone with my cane it would have been a very different story. Large knive vs. cane. Can you use it as forearm protection, instead of just swinging?


It would have been a different story.  I'm just glad that the blade was dull and from the looks of your wounds, it looks like the person was hacking at you and not doing "cutting" swings.

The difference is that cutting swings worked like paper.  Paper doesn't cut until that edge sides across the surface.  Or you can think of cutting a steak.  If we want to cut the steak, we slide the blade across th


Depending on how thick your clothing was, it could have been pretty bad. Even a dull blade will cut. It doesn't chop well but it cuts.  Did the blade hit the bone of your forearm?


----------



## drop bear

Blindside said:


> Not on the one I showed there.  Tuhon Bill here shows two lock variations depending on the depth of the overwrap.



The reason I mention the overwrap is they don't have to be trained in stick to do it. They just have to want you to stop hitting them with it.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Blindside said:


> Not on the one I showed there.  Tuhon Bill here shows two lock variations depending on the depth of the overwrap.


Oh man. I'm loving that second technique and how it hooks.  I want to experience that one.


----------



## Blindside

JowGaWolf said:


> Oh man. I'm loving that second technique and how it hooks.  I want to experience that one.
> View attachment 27957



That is probably the source of where the Fang Choke came from:


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> The reason I mention the overwrap is they don't have to be trained in stick to do it. They just have to want you to stop hitting them with it.


Winding over the arm is practically instinctive.

mark 4:44 or so:





Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Rich Parsons

drop bear said:


> I was not so much thinking what I can do, what you can do. But more of a situation a novice cane fighter might find himself in while fighting a ruffian.
> 
> Everyone I have seen in sick fights kind of tries to overhook the weapon or rush the guy. Especially if they are getting hit.
> 
> And from there they can take the stick off you. They basically twist and it can come out of your hand.
> 
> Getting the clinch and pushing the stick through for the underhook should slow that process down though.
> 
> Without needing a whole bunch of specialised training to pull off.



As Master Ken Says, It is BS, just hit them with the stick it is that easy  

Yes, An underhook is nice. I like to hook and squeeze. 

Yet, every time someone charged me they either dodged / avoided range or took it and ate the dirt. 
No recent data, most of it was when I was a N00B who had little to know training at all. 

With intent and a force multiple it helps a lot. 
I am not saying grappling doesn't work. IT does. 
I am not saying no one can take me down, it happens and will happen again. 

But, I am saying if you truly are trying to hurt me, and you enter that zone, you (generic) had better be prepared for the worst. 
That intent is not there for most people, and some will never have it. Some learn it over time.


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## Kung Fu Wang

If I can use my cane to knock out Mike Tyson, does that mean I have good MA skill?

One thing that I don't understand about this thread is, the OP seems to train how to use a cane to fight against someone who is open hand (no weapon).

I can understand that you train how to fight

- open hand against open hand.
- weapon against weapon.

But to train "weapon against open hand" just make no logic sense to me.

Do people train how to use "Guan Dao to fight against boxer"? If the answer is yes, why?

Am I the only person who has logic issue here?


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## Blindside

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If I can use my cane to knock out Mike Tyson, does that mean I have good MA skill?
> 
> One thing that I don't understand about this thread is, the OP seems to train how to use a cane to fight against someone who is open hand (no weapon).
> 
> I can understand that you train how to fight
> 
> - open hand against open hand.
> - weapon against weapon.
> 
> But to train "weapon against open hand" just make no logic sense to me.
> 
> Do people train how to use "Guan Dao to fight against boxer"? If the answer is yes, why?
> 
> Am I the only person who has logic issue here?



Nope, I have no problem with it.  He is training to use a force multiplier to make of for loss of attributes due to age.  It makes perfect sense.


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## Oily Dragon

Blindside said:


> Nope, I have no problem with it.  He is training to use a force multiplier to make of for loss of attributes due to age.  It makes perfect sense.


Exactly!  That's why he should investigate longer sticks.

There is only one thing more intimidating than an old man with a cane: and old man with a _gun_.


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## Blindside

Oily Dragon said:


> Exactly!  That's why he should investigate longer sticks.
> 
> There is only one thing more intimidating than an old man with a cane: and old man with a _gun_.


I am pretty sure he has one of those too.  A big stick just gives you options.


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## Oily Dragon

Blindside said:


> I am pretty sure he has one of those too.  A big stick just gives you options.


All true radii are cubic, good buddy.

In some parts of the world, they call it the "cudgel fist".


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## JowGaWolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do people train how to use "Guan Dao to fight against boxer"? If the answer is yes, why?
> 
> Am I the only person who has logic issue here?


I only have this logic with certain weapons.  Sticks are the exception because they don't guarantee you'll win a fight.  If see a few videos of street fights where someone had a stick, got into a fight.  The other guy took his stick and beat him with his own stick. 

I recently showed a video of a 60 year old lady with a cane.  She didn't know how to use it to defend herself.  Some teens attacked her, took her cane, and beat her with her own cane.  

Even if it's a staff. if a person doesn't know how to use the staff then I would be able to take that staff away from them, and then beat them with their own staff.  Blades aren't so forgiving. Where I can take a hit from a stick or a staff.  I don't want to willingly take a slash or a stab from a knife in hopes that I'll be able to take the weapon away from them.

The story of old ladies who defend themselves with canes are probably because the criminal didn't want to beat them to death with the cane.  I say that because the criminals who do want to beat someone to death usually have no problem with taking the cane and doing so.

You have to keep in mind.  That with CMA you aren't just taking a 3 week course on how to use a stick, cane, or staff.  I've been swinging a staff for more than 10 years vs a person who only has 4 months of swinging a cane?

Me with a cane against someone without a weapon would be like me doing a form lol.


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## Kung Fu Wang

JowGaWolf said:


> Sticks are the exception because they don't guarantee you'll win a fight.


One may pick up the wrong weapon for him. 

I have 2 hiking sticks both have sword in it. If I can use it to deal with mountain lion, I should be able to use it to deal with human being. 

My dad used to have a walking cane that can shot bullet.


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## Dirty Dog

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One may pick up the wrong weapon for him.
> 
> I have 2 hiking sticks both have sword in it. If I can use it to deal with mountain lion, I should be able to use it to deal with human being.


What makes you think you can use it to deal with a mountain lion?


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## dvcochran

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If I can use my cane to knock out Mike Tyson, does that mean I have good MA skill?
> 
> One thing that I don't understand about this thread is, the OP seems to train how to use a cane to fight against someone who is open hand (no weapon).
> 
> I can understand that you train how to fight
> 
> - open hand against open hand.
> - weapon against weapon.
> 
> But to train "weapon against open hand" just make no logic sense to me.
> 
> Do people train how to use "Guan Dao to fight against boxer"? If the answer is yes, why?
> 
> Am I the only person who has logic issue here?
> 
> View attachment 27997
> View attachment 27996


That would be classic military strategy. The power with the most weapons usually wins the war.


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## dvcochran

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One may pick up the wrong weapon for him.
> 
> I have 2 hiking sticks both have sword in it. If I can use it to deal with mountain lion, I should be able to use it to deal with human being.
> 
> My dad used to have a walking cane that can shot bullet.
> 
> View attachment 27999
> View attachment 28000


Now, that is my kind of sword.
Single shot? Against a mountain lion I would say you may be in trouble.


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## lklawson

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One may pick up the wrong weapon for him.
> 
> I have 2 hiking sticks both have sword in it. If I can use it to deal with mountain lion, I should be able to use it to deal with human being.
> 
> My dad used to have a walking cane that can shot bullet.
> 
> View attachment 27999
> View attachment 28000


Both are subject to local and federal laws.*  "Sword-sticks" are frequently regulated by the state, or even city/county (last I checked they were illegal to carry in Ohio). 

Cane guns are also frequently regulated by state law but are also subject to NFA regulations.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


*-In the U.S.


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## Kung Fu Wang

lklawson said:


> Both are subject to local and federal laws.*  "Sword-sticks" are frequently regulated by the state, or even city/county (last I checked they were illegal to carry in Ohio).
> 
> Cane guns are also frequently regulated by state law but are also subject to NFA regulations.


I assume this is illegal too.


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## lklawson

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I assume this is illegal too.
> 
> View attachment 28004


Not in Ohio.

In Ohio it's legal to "open carry" large knives and even swords.  You'll, um... "draw attention," probably unwanted attention, and maybe a "friendly visit" from the local constabulary, but it's not illegal.

We just had a change in our knife laws last year.  It was focused around "automatic knives" and "going forth armed" details related to knives but it might have affected sword-sticks/sword-canes.  So I can now carry an automatic knife now but I don't know if it impacted a sword-stick.  I'll have to go do some more research.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

lklawson said:


> Not in Ohio.
> 
> In Ohio it's legal to "open carry" large knives and even swords.  You'll, um... "draw attention," probably unwanted attention, and maybe a "friendly visit" from the local constabulary, but it's not illegal.
> 
> We just had a change in our knife laws last year.  It was focused around "automatic knives" and "going forth armed" details related to knives but it might have affected sword-sticks/sword-canes.  So I can now carry an automatic knife now but I don't know if it impacted a sword-stick.  I'll have to go do some more research.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


According to Ohio Revised Code 2923.12 (H)
"For purposes of this section, "deadly weapon" or "weapon" does not include any knife, razor, or cutting instrument if the instrument was not used as a weapon."

So, in "black letter law" a sword-stick (or gravity knife, automatic knife, switch-blade, or, well, any blade or knife) is only illegal to carry if it's *USED* as a "deadly weapon" (elsewhere defined, but it's essentially the self-evident definition).  And, typically, if you use a knife as a deadly weapon in Ohio you can use an Affirmative Defense, where you "admit" that you broke the law but there were extenuating circumstances, typically "self defense."

That said, I don't think I'd like to be the first trial case on how a sword-stick applies to the new Ohio law.  A prosecutor looking to make a name or just "send a message" could easily argue that there's no utility purpose to a sword-stick and therefore it must have been carried as a weapon (despite the new terminology specifying "used" as a weapon).

I mean, I own a sword-cane, 'cuz, you know... they're neat.  I'm just not confident about legally carrying it in Ohio right now.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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