# combat medicine



## Tgace (Jul 13, 2004)

For the hardcore "combat survival" first aid kit....this company has developed a lifesaving product called QuickClot. Big in military/LEO circles. Dont know if its available for civilian use yet.

http://www.z-medica.com/

How many MA seriously study first aid measures?


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## Flatlander (Jul 14, 2004)

Honestly, I do not.  Do yo think I ought to?  Why?


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## Bammx2 (Jul 14, 2004)

I have taken a couple of first aid course,but most are done for general first aid.
 Unfortunaely,some of these aren't really designed for sport related injuries or blunt trauma injuries.
I did one in the UK that was 4 days long and it turned out to be pretty good.I also take quite a bit of time reading up on sports medicine and sports related injuries. There is starting to be more info on martial arts related injuries,but you have to look for it.
  In my practice,I have come to find that if I have a first aid certificate,my students and especially the parents of my kids,feel a little more confident if in case something happens.These days,thats something people are looking for more and more.....specialy the "sue happy freaks" out there who are just looking to screw someone and get a free ride.


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## OULobo (Jul 14, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Honestly, I do not.  Do yo think I ought to?  Why?



I'd say that it is a life skill more than an MA skill. It's kind of like emergency maintanance for your body. 

As for the Quik-Clot, I heard that this stuff is saving lives by the dozen in combat now. It is such a great invention if it works the way I understand. I think it is available to EMS currently, but I'm not sure. 

I've taken many courses in First Aid through the Red Cross (mostly for when I was younger for life guarding, camping and for SCUBA). The biggest problem I have is that the methods and ideas keep changing.


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## Tgace (Jul 14, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Honestly, I do not. Do yo think I ought to? Why?


If you are training in MA for self-defense, it wont do you much good if you take out a bad guy but bleed out afterwards.


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## Flatlander (Jul 14, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> If you are training in MA for self-defense, it wont do you much good if you take out a bad guy but bleed out afterwards.


Good point.


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## loki09789 (Jul 14, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> I'd say that it is a life skill more than an MA skill. It's kind of like emergency maintanance for your body.


If you are trained to hurt, you should be trained to heal if you are philosophically aligned to the Yin/Yang idea at all.  Morally, it makes sense that an instructor would have some first aid training - even aerobics/fitness employees are required to have it by most companies.

Anything that you can use to improve, preserve or defend your life is a martial art/Self Defense skill IMO. If this journey/training is a life long practice, an ideology/philosophy as much as it is a physical art, it is more about learning to use what you have when it is needed the most over the long haul. You can only kick hard and fast for so long.  Philosophies are only valid if they can be applied to a larger scope than just kicking, punching or the training floor.

My Dad knows cars really well and the little I picked up saved my life when I was with the volunteer firefighters in my hometown. I would consider cutting the battery line in a wrecked car before climbing into it to extracate a victim (well body by the time I got in there, really sad) a 'self defense' move. If I hadn't known/done that it could have allowed for sparks/arching and a fire if it touched a broken fuel line.  I started a post to illustrate the relationship of martial arts development and woodscraft/outdoors stuff based on this idea.


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## Flatlander (Jul 14, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> If you are trained to hurt, you should be trained to heal if you are philosophically aligned to the Yin/Yang idea at all. (...) If this journey/training is a life long practice, an ideology/philosophy as much as it is a physical art, it is more about learning to use what you have when it is needed the most over the long haul.  (...) Philosophies are only valid if they can be applied to a larger scope than just kicking, punching or the training floor.


:asian:

Another good point.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 14, 2004)

I have basic first aid training, and a Current CPR cert.

Ive seen a couple different versions of the "Quick Clot" type bandages, and I intend to get one for my first aid bag.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 14, 2004)

Quik-clot...awesome field app.  Less SVT/DVT side effects then turniquettes, better tampen then pressure bandage alone; good thing. 

As a Doctor (chiro sports physician with EMT field training), I avoid being prepared.  Too much fun to be found in the ad lib. (can I pack it with dirt? What about that piece of sharp metal?).


JUST KIDDING!!!

Neurotically, I keep an extensive first aid kit in the car, and even have portables I carry with me, to include things I don't need, but someone else may (epi pen, nitro, aspirin, inflatable splints & cervical collar, emergency blankets, athletic tape and bandage kits, gauze, emergency suture kit, etc.). Drives my girlfriend nuts...every time we go to the mall or store, I'm schlepping a back-pack with me, full of med stuff.  California state law may come after me if I ever have to use it, b/c Chiro's aren't suposed to work open wounds without appropriate additional licensure/certification, and I've let phlebotomy & EMT expire. Maybe helping to save a life will count for me if the board chooses to review my license for it?

Oh well.  Better to do what is right and let whatever happens happen, then stand idly by and do nothing.

D.


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## psi_radar (Jul 14, 2004)

Isn't Quick Clot based on synthetic imitation of shrimp shells? 

I do some backcountry survivalism and camping, so I know a bit about emergency medicine due to that. 

I started studying it after my wife had an allergic reaction to a spider bite 12 miles into the Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana on our honeymoon. She was starting to have trouble breathing by the time we got to Missoula, even after use of asthma medication. We had to have a second honeymoon, obviously. 

Good skills for anyone to have. You never know what might happen.


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## Blindside (Jul 14, 2004)

I have had basic first aid and cpr since junior high.  I took a MOFA (Mountaneering Oriented First Aid) course when I was in college.  With any luck I will take the basic level EMT course this winter, and with even more luck my work will pay for it.  

I really believe in knowing at least basic first aid, and if possible more.  Many joint dislocations are best if repositioned immediately, rather than letting the surrounding ligaments and tissue stretch, bruise, and swell.  I (stupidly) managed to dislocate one of my fingers in class, and since I knew what to do, I was able to immediately pop it back into place.  

I really respect those martial artists who have gone indepth into the healing arts, it seems to provide a complete package.

Lamont


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## dearnis.com (Jul 14, 2004)

Good points all.  I changed my policies a few years ago to require brown-belt level students to be CPR certified.

Quick clot is availible on the civillian market through Brigade Quartermasters or Galls.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 14, 2004)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> Good points all. I changed my policies a few years ago to require brown-belt level students to be CPR certified.
> 
> Quick clot is availible on the civillian market through *Brigade Quartermasters* or Galls.


Excellent source for many things hard core.


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## Tgace (Jul 14, 2004)

thinking about getting a pack for my work bag.


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## dearnis.com (Jul 14, 2004)

> thinking about getting a pack for my work bag.


I had been as well, then blew it off, figuring that I wouldn't need it in my current assignment..... Well, a nearby city department is staging a sick out and all of a sudden I am a city cop on midnight shift.

Moral: Things change fast; plan ahead.


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## Tgace (Aug 4, 2004)

Just as an update to this thread. The Aug 04 issue of Police magazine has an article on the latest clotting agents and their effectiveness. There are multiple products available, but all of them have their limitations and are far from "silver bullets". 

A Quote:



> If you do choose to use one of these dressings, you can use certain techniques to ensure you get the best results possible and enhance their efficacy.
> It stands to reason that if the bleeding is under high pressure or very brisk, none of these products is going to work. You'll need to apply direct pressure to the wound or to a pressure point above the wound. If you get the bleeding slowed with a pressure point, you might be able to get the wound dry enough to apply the material into the wound and allow it to work. After the dressing is complete, the tourniquet or pressure point may be released.
> What would make the ideal hemostatic agent? It should be inexpensive, not cause allergic reactions, not need to be washed out, and able to be delivered into any kind of wound. Above all, it should work and not cause any harm.
> There is one thing we do know and that is that the time-honored method of using direct pressure and a tourniquet for a bleeding injury really works. It seems prudent that a police officer should use the simplest and easiest technique in the field for hemorrhage control.
> We recommend that law enforcement agencies proceed with caution before spending valuable resources on the new blood-clotting agents available until further studies are done and stick with old-fashioned direct pressure and tourniquets.


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 4, 2004)

Being a Nurse by trade I am leary of new products that enhance the body natural functions. I have seen a lot of medical products come and go over the years lol. 

I for one would recommend Vit K as a daily vitamin to enhance clotting factor of the blood it helps the Body produce the filaments neccessary for clotting. 

Vit K is also a could Emergency Med if you can get it in liquid form. Most of the time if you are having a servere clotting aka bleeding problem 20-25 mg IM will help and then follow up with another 20 mg of Vit K in an oral tablet. Of course direct pressure to the injury is also recommended.


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## Blindside (Nov 10, 2004)

I am in the process of updating the house and vehicles first aid kits, and I heard about Quik Clot, so I asked my dad about his thought the product (he is an MD.)

excerpted from an email:
------------------------
It's interesting that the product received 510(k) clearance. Section 
510(k) "clearance" or "certification" indicates that a substantially similar 
product was sold in interstate commerce prior to May, 1976, which is 
when the FDA obtained congressional authority to regulated medical devices. 
A manufacturer who can prove such sales will have  its product exempted 
from the proofs of efficacy and safety that otherwise would be required.

Regardless, I am familiar with one such agent, and I assume this is a 
similar product. It is essentially a complex polymer and a potassium 
salt, which together interact with blood to form an instant clot. Sounds like 
a good addition to a first aid kit.
-------------------------

I thought people might be interested.

Lamont


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