# Anti-Grappling



## MJS (May 1, 2006)

In another thread about Emin Boztepe, I saw mention of the challenge that he proposed to the Gracies. 

Now, I'll start off by saying that I know nothing about WC. I really don't want to see this thread turn into a WC bashing session. 

I'm simply curious as to how the WC fighter goes about defending themselves against a grappler. I've seen Emin mention anti grappling methods, but I can only guess that he has included some grappling into his WC training.

So...for all of the WC members that we have here, I'm interested in hearing and learning a little more about this art. 

Mike


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## Andrew Green (May 2, 2006)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5421521893915752114

Emin Boztepe's fight with William Cheung.  I don't think his grappling skills are all that great from this example...

Also have my doubts as to this anti-grappling, he went takedown to ground and pound in this fight, but I've not seen much else of him fighting...


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## yipman_sifu (May 2, 2006)

Anti-Grappling is not what I like personally as a Wing Chun guy. I beleive that Boztepe's Turkish wrestilng techniques were used against William Cheung. Regarding WT issue with anti-grappling. I beleive it is unpredicted and unknown. I pesonally never saw a WT uses this techniques and at the same time never saw how a grappler would respond to it. Thses anti-grappling techniques were some sort of conclusions came by GM Kernspecht as I predict. GM Keith Kernspecht was a former wrestler and trained in Jujitsu and taught it to students before becoming a Wing Chun master. He once said that he knows how grapplers move and reacts, so he beleives that anti- grappling is effective. On the other side, I saw how Royce uses his BJJ techniques and know that he is really good at it. This question is not easy to be answered until it is tested in reality.

If you want my opinion. I beleive that in actual street fight (not in ring where regulations is there). Being a quick mover and mobilizing power punches can give you a victory, because punching is much more faster than grappling. On the other side, why not be open minded and learn grappling just in case we go down. Martial arts are all nice as long as its history came from the same source, CHINA .


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## green meanie (May 2, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Martial arts are all nice as long as its history came from the same source, CHINA .


 
And if they come from a different source? Then they're not nice? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.


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## WingChun Lawyer (May 2, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> 1) Anti-Grappling is not what I like personally as a Wing Chun guy. I beleive that Boztepe's Turkish wrestilng techniques were used against William Cheung. Regarding WT issue with anti-grappling. I beleive it is unpredicted and unknown.
> 
> 2) I pesonally never saw a WT uses this techniques and at the same time never saw how a grappler would respond to it. Thses anti-grappling techniques were some sort of conclusions came by GM Kernspecht as I predict.
> 
> ...


 
1) Agreed.

2) Neither did I.

3) It´s easy to do antigrappling once you know how to grapple...

4) HIS antigrappling may be effective...because HE knows how to grapple.

5) That´s true.

6) Punching is faster than throwing people to the ground. But one punch frequently will not stop a fight, whereas throwing someone to the ground will at least change the perspective of the aggressor, and it is much easier to do than to KO someone.

7) Hell yeah.

8) Because people in Africa, America and Europe had no idea on how to grapple, punch and kick before those enlightened chinese people deigned to share their wisdom. Sure...


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## mantis (May 2, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> If you want my opinion. I beleive that in actual street fight (not in ring where regulations is there). Being a quick mover and mobilizing power punches can give you a victory, because punching is much more faster than grappling. On the other side, why not be open minded and learn grappling just in case we go down. Martial arts are all nice as long as its history came from the same source, CHINA .



in real life situations you will be thrown on your back with a bunch of people kicking you everywhere. that's a real life situation. 

i have not been, seen, or heard about a real life fight where the fighters did not have to go to the ground and do some grappling.


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## yipman_sifu (May 2, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> in real life situations you will be thrown on your back with a bunch of people kicking you everywhere. that's a real life situation.
> 
> i have not been, seen, or heard about a real life fight where the fighters did not have to go to the ground and do some grappling.


 
Well, Ok. Read about Emin himself. He had more than 300 fights in his life. Many of them were containing weapons, some guns?!. I know that is strange, but that what I read. It is said that among all the fights he had. He was never forced to the ground except the Willaim that we saw in that old clip. If you know a grappler technique, you would not go down. Except that if you by luck fought Royce in the street. You are down wheather you like it or not.


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## mantis (May 2, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Well, Ok. Read about Emin himself. He had more than 300 fights in his life. Many of them were containing weapons, some guns?!. I know that is strange, but that what I read. It is said that among all the fights he had. He was never forced to the ground except the Willaim that we saw in that old clip. If you know a grappler technique, you would not go down. Except that if you by luck fought Royce in the street. You are down wheather you like it or not.



if you are already a grappler it's hard to make you go down, that's right. what i am saying is you need to learn grappling so this doesnt happen, or if it happens you know what to do.
the way it's been with me, in real life fights no one is willing to fight 1-2-1 usually unless they know they're backed up by friends or what not.  if you are fighting a person his friends will not stand there if you are kicking butt, instead they will make sure ur on the ground. 

btw, ur talking about Emin. but i am not Emin, and you (or at least some of the readers here) arent either.


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## yipman_sifu (May 2, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> if you are already a grappler it's hard to make you go down, that's right. what i am saying is you need to learn grappling so this doesnt happen, or if it happens you know what to do.
> the way it's been with me, in real life fights no one is willing to fight 1-2-1 usually unless they know they're backed up by friends or what not. if you are fighting a person his friends will not stand there if you are kicking butt, instead they will make sure ur on the ground.
> 
> btw, ur talking about Emin. but i am not Emin, and you (or at least some of the readers here) arent either.


 
Yes man. Grappling is good for health, flexibility, and ground fighting. Regarding if I am like Emin. Why not man?!. We all have the ability to become better that any martial artist known. most people sees Emin, Royce, and Bruce Lee and say that they are top. Beleive me that there are other people in this world that are better than our media popularized heros, but they may not have the ability to show or very humble to their cause of the martial way.


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## MJS (May 2, 2006)

I agree, having some grappling in your 'toolbox' will certainly be a big plus.  Now, is it the norm for WC people to include this type of training into their material or do some not bother with it?

Mike


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## fightingfat (May 3, 2006)

I would say most don't bother with it.


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## yipman_sifu (May 3, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> I agree, having some grappling in your 'toolbox' will certainly be a big plus. Now, is it the norm for WC people to include this type of training into their material or do some not bother with it?
> 
> Mike


 
I know that anti-grappling is a WT trained thing (Wing Tsun). Wing Tsun is the branch of Leung Ting and Kernspecht in Europe. If I were personally were asked about how to deal ground fighting. I would say that Why I learn anti-grappling. Go and learn BJJ. It is good and will not effect your Wing chun progress, because it is all on the ground and doesn't interfere in the standing position.


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## green meanie (May 3, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> I know that anti-grappling is a WT trained thing (Wing Tsun). Wing Tsun is the branch of Leung Ting and Kernspecht in Europe. If I were personally were asked about how to deal ground fighting. I would say that Why I learn anti-grappling. Go and learn BJJ. It is good and will not effect your Wing chun progress, because it is all on the ground and doesn't interfere in the standing position.


 
What does 'anti-grappling' training involve?


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## ed-swckf (May 3, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> I agree, having some grappling in your 'toolbox' will certainly be a big plus. Now, is it the norm for WC people to include this type of training into their material or do some not bother with it?
> 
> Mike


 
Some won't bother, i know as students progress through the system most become interested in defence against all number of martial arts.  I think a lot of schools will touch on grappling but i feel the best way to address this is to get in contact with local schools of different backgrounds and train wing chun with people who present different lines.  Outside of my wing chun training i train with a few different guys one uses grappling and boxing, others include kick boxing and aikido.  Of course this isn't really something the wing chun class itself will offer you although a lot of wing chun guys have trained in other areas and that can help a lot.  With wing chun being a relatively small system when students do get to a fairly good level they should remember that it is their wing chun and they can test it and play with it how they please.  Wing chun is a solid basis and a great vehicle for absorbing knowledge and theres a lot of knowledge of other arts to be absorbed into each individuals approach to wing chun.


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## fightingfat (May 3, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> What does 'anti-grappling' training involve?


 
Ever seen Chuck Liddel fight?


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## green meanie (May 3, 2006)

fightingfat said:
			
		

> Ever seen Chuck Liddel fight?


 
Sure. But he didn't study the 'anti-grapple'. He has a wrestling background and uses it to stay out of trouble. After reading this thread I was beginning to think the Wing Chun 'Anti-Grappling' method was something they had designed for themselves. Is that the case or no?


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## MJS (May 3, 2006)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Some won't bother, i know as students progress through the system most become interested in defence against all number of martial arts. I think a lot of schools will touch on grappling but i feel the best way to address this is to get in contact with local schools of different backgrounds and train wing chun with people who present different lines. Outside of my wing chun training i train with a few different guys one uses grappling and boxing, others include kick boxing and aikido. Of course this isn't really something the wing chun class itself will offer you although a lot of wing chun guys have trained in other areas and that can help a lot. With wing chun being a relatively small system when students do get to a fairly good level they should remember that it is their wing chun and they can test it and play with it how they please. Wing chun is a solid basis and a great vehicle for absorbing knowledge and theres a lot of knowledge of other arts to be absorbed into each individuals approach to wing chun.


 
Good points!  A few people who I talk with have similar thoughts. Instead of always cross training, their thought is more along the line of cross referencing other arts.  Understanding how the boxer, kicker or grappler thinks, will IMO, help develop our base art much more.

Mike


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## fightingfat (May 3, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> Sure. But he didn't study the 'anti-grapple'. He has a wrestling background and uses it to stay out of trouble. After reading this thread I was beginning to think the Wing Chun 'Anti-Grappling' method was something they had designed for themselves. Is that the case or no?


 
Not as far as I know meanie. I think Chuck has great anti-grappling skills and that's pretty much how I train for it!


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## Andrew Green (May 3, 2006)

I wouldn't call what he does anti-grappling.  Chuck Liddel, before even starting MMA, was a top level wrestler.  That's where his wrestling skills come from.

A big part of wrestling is learning how to not get taken down.

But anti-grapple is silly, it's like learning anti-punching.  How can you learn to defend punching if you and the people you train with never learn punching.

"Anti-grappling" is a marketing term some people have used to capitalize on a bunch of people's realization that they have no viable defence against someone trying to take them down, but don't want to actually learn how to grapple.

It seems to work, as I imagine it has made him some money, so in the Western spirit of taking someones profitable idea and expanding on it to get in on the profits I am working on a "Anti-footwork" program, for people who don't want to learn or deal with moving.


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## WingChun Lawyer (May 3, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I wouldn't call what he does anti-grappling. Chuck Liddel, before even starting MMA, was a top level wrestler. That's where his wrestling skills come from.
> 
> A big part of wrestling is learning how to not get taken down.
> 
> ...


 
Methinks an anti-striking program wouldn&#180;t work so well, since grapplers are usually told by their coaches (in judo and BJJ classes, at least) that it&#180;s a bloody good idea to go elsewhere to learn some boxing or kickboxing in order to supplement their games.

But hey, who knows! People rarely lose money when investing in human stupidity.


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## green meanie (May 3, 2006)

fightingfat said:
			
		

> Not as far as I know meanie. I think Chuck has great anti-grappling skills and that's pretty much how I train for it!


 
I'm with Andrew Green on this one but thanks for the info!


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## yipman_sifu (May 3, 2006)

That's true. No Anti Grappling. It is just a way to deal with locks and grabs from former Jujitus and wrestlers who took striking systems as their art. It is very dissapointing that current martial arts are for profitable purposes where the quality and sincerity of teaching is diminishing every day. they know how people think by watching UFC, pride, K1, Vale Tudo, and any of these matches. That's why I don't really beleive in UFC matches any more. It became more as an entertaiment more than martial arts contest.


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## Andrew Green (May 3, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> It is very dissapointing that current martial arts are for profitable purposes where the quality and sincerity of teaching is diminishing every day.



Quality and profit are not mutually exclussive.

People looking for something effective will find it, and the level of training at those places is going up becasue they are competing with each other.

People that want to run around in fancy Pj's yelling things in another language and doing little dances, but never actually sparring will find that too, and hose places are getting better at delivering it.

People wanting to find their chi and seek peaceful enlightenment will find places trying to offer that.

People wanting a long lineage and established system from somewhere in Asia will find that too.  Although some of these people seem to get frustrated with the state of their system as they came in with inaccurate expectations...

Everything else, and everything in the middle is available too.  People can find whatever they are looking for, and the state of things is quite good and improving IMO.


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## green meanie (May 3, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Quality and profit are not mutually exclussive.
> 
> People looking for something effective will find it, and the level of training at those places is going up becasue they are competing with each other.
> 
> ...


 
Well said. :asian:


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## AceHBK (May 3, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> "Anti-grappling" is a marketing term some people have used to capitalize on a bunch of people's realization that they have no viable defence against someone trying to take them down, but don't want to actually learn how to grapple.


 
Great point!!


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## White Fox (May 8, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5421521893915752114
> 
> Emin Boztepe's fight with William Cheung. I don't think his grappling skills are all that great from this example...
> 
> Also have my doubts as to this anti-grappling, he went takedown to ground and pound in this fight, but I've not seen much else of him fighting...


 
I watched that Karate guy and the BJJ guy spar on one of those side video's. That Karate guy had no idea what to do on the ground. He was a fly in a spiders web! 

I'm very happy my sifu teaches us groundfighting!!


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