# What kamae you like



## blackswordshinobi (Mar 29, 2012)

ench ninjutsu have there own kamae but all look the same  but i do all 12 kamae  but school add or sudtracked some kamae !


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## blackswordshinobi (Mar 29, 2012)

dont read the attachment im doing scan this not my failt some how i been traked some thing or cookie that tracking movent to site ill bet the phil elmore doing grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 29, 2012)

Right. Because Phil Elmore is a L33t Haxor Dude with nothing better to do than give your computer a case of the pox.


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## Tez3 (Mar 29, 2012)

and the prize goes to this thread for the most bewildering thread yet!!


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 29, 2012)

Can we just give Billy his own forum?


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## blackswordshinobi (Mar 29, 2012)

look at under line thing i been notices less a monther  some work i print end up stupit attachment thread   like school  if dont see it i do in blue under line


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## blackswordshinobi (Mar 29, 2012)

1 shizen tai no kamae
2 hira ichimonji no kame
3 ichimonji no kame medle
4 gedam ichimonji no kamae low 
5 jodam ichimonji no kamae high
6 togakure ryu icho no kamae
7 dokko no kamae
8 hicho no kamae fly bird
9 hokko no kamae
10 kosai no kamae
11 jumonji no kamae X
12 fudoza no kamae sitting kamae this what ment by 12 kamae i can say all my fav but other have might just have one fav sorry went of topic


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## jks9199 (Mar 29, 2012)

The Last Legionary said:


> Right. Because Phil Elmore is a L33t Haxor Dude with nothing better to do than give your computer a case of the pox.



Well, we do know that Phil isn't posting around these parts anymore...  Maybe he really doesn't have anything better to do?


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## blackswordshinobi (Mar 29, 2012)

if what know he doing bad mother ninjutsu weapon and  all i he really have nothing to do  but being whine  sob truely


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 29, 2012)

Well, 1 - Phil doesn't post here anymore, hasn't in quite a few years.  So I think we can do without slamming the guy.

2- I don't see any attachments. To be blunt Billy, you can't post attachments here due to permissions in our software.  So if you're seeing them in your posts, it's something on your end.


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 29, 2012)

I can post attachments.

Billy, you should go here and share your experiences with Phil.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45957&page=1


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## Chris Parker (Mar 30, 2012)

If I may translate....

I believe the question is either which of the various Ninjutsu kamae (postures) do the practitioners of the arts prefer personally, or it's how many do you use?

Then Billy states that there are 12 kamae (which is not correct), as well as stating that they all look the same (again, not really correct), with some arts adding or subtracting a few. He provides the following list:



blackswordshinobi said:


> 1 shizen tai no kamae



Also called Shizen no Kamae (TCJRNM), Hira no Kamae (most of the Ryu), known as Shizentai (without the "no kamae") in TYR and SFR.



blackswordshinobi said:


> 2 hira ichimonji no kame



Present in a number of Ryu, with different forms for Koto Ryu, and slight differences for other systems.



blackswordshinobi said:


> 3 ichimonji no kame medle



"Middle", I'd assume based on the next two...



blackswordshinobi said:


> 4 gedam ichimonji no kamae low
> 5 jodam ichimonji no kamae high



Realistically, these are just variations on the single kamae, not three different ones. While the first one Billy listed was referred to as "middle", here he's using Jodan (high level) and Gedan (low level).



blackswordshinobi said:


> 6 togakure ryu icho no kamae



Togakure Ryu's Ichi no Kamae. A number of other kamae here as ryu-specific, so I'm not sure why this one is separated that way...



blackswordshinobi said:


> 7 dokko no kamae



Both Togakure Ryu and Gyokko Ryu have a kamae referred to as Doko no Kamae, and, while there are certain similarities, they are noticably different.



blackswordshinobi said:


> 8 hicho no kamae fly bird



Gyokko Ryu's single-leg kamae. Kukishinden Ryu then has Katate Hicho no Kamae as well, and there is a "Hicho" form of Hira Ichimonji in Koto Ryu.



blackswordshinobi said:


> 9 hokko no kamae



Specific to Koto Ryu.



blackswordshinobi said:


> 10 kosai no kamae



Kosei no Kamae is specific to Kukishinden Ryu, and there really isn't any other kamae that looks terribly much like it in the other Ryu.



blackswordshinobi said:


> 11 jumonji no kamae X



Again, specific to Gyokko Ryu. The X is there because that's what "Jumonji" means (after a fashion, at least).



blackswordshinobi said:


> 12 fudoza no kamae sitting kamae



Found in some forms for TYR, but mainly known from SFR... who refer to it simply as "Za Kamae"

Missing from this list is Tenchi Inyo no Kamae (Gyokko Ryu), Hannin no Kamae (Gyokko Ryu), Gassho no Kamae (Gyokko/Koto Ryu), Shoshin no Kamae (Gyokko Ryu), Seigan no Kamae (Koto Ryu), Bobi no Kamae (Koto Ryu), Seigan no Kamae (Kukishinden Ryu), Katate Hicho no Kamae (Kukishinden Ryu), Seigan no Kamae (Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu), Katate Seigan no Kamae (Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu), Katate Seigan no Kamae (Takagi Yoshin Ryu), Seiza no Kamae (Reiho), Kiza no Kamae (Takagi Yoshin Ryu), Happogakure no Kamae (Togakure Ryu), Hachimonji no Kamae (Togakure Ryu), Tonso no Kamae (Togakure Ryu), and numerous other incidental kamae, or kamae associated with action, such as Nage no Kamae and Nage Uchi no Kamae... so a few more than 12.

The Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki lists 9 primary kamae, which are:
- Fudoza (SFR Jutaijutsu/TYR)
- Shizen no Kamae (SFR/TYR)
- Hira Ichimonji no Kamae (Gyokko Ryu)
- Ichimonji no Kamae (Gyokko Ryu)
- Doko no Kamae (Togakure Ryu)
- Hicho no Kamae (Gyokko Ryu)
- Hoko no Kamae (Koto Ryu)
- Kosei no Kamae (Kukishinden Ryu)
-Jumonji no Kamae (Gyokko Ryu)

As you can see, this is basically Billy's list without the variations of Ichimonji, or Togakure Ryu's Ichi no Kamae included.



blackswordshinobi said:


> this what ment by 12 kamae i can say all my fav but other have might just have one fav sorry went of topic



Here's the thing, though, Billy. You can't have a favourite. It doesn't work that way. If you have a favourite, you'll always try to be in that kamae... but it might not be right one for the attack. You let the situation dictate which kamae you'll use, not because it's a favourite of yours. So I'd advise not having favourites, but look at what each kamae is for, and learn to use them properly. But for that, you need a real teacher, not a home study course.


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## blackswordshinobi (Mar 30, 2012)

truthly i am not try dis you'll where do you'll work becaues all iam hear or reading is critzium i think i have you'll beat in training becaues seem to that you'll really trying to press  my buttion and try get me angery  iam not into cycle of hate im not into it ok/ im say clearly writeing clearly
1 shizen tai no kamae  nartle postuer
2 hira ichimonji no kame  flat
3 ichimonji no kame     medle
4 gedam ichimonji no kamae   low 
5 jodam ichimonji no kamae  high
6 togakure ryu icho no kamae  steaight
7 dokko no kamae  angry tiger
8 hicho no kamae fly bird
9 hokko no kamae  craeting primter
10 kosai no kamae go farword or attacking
11 jumonji no kamae X
12 fudoza no kamae sitting kamae  medtasion  stoll

are you'll real dis  stephen k hayes teaching  this why keep  writing simple


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## Bester (Mar 30, 2012)

This is a Traditional Japanese Ninjutsu area.  If you want to discuss Hayes teachings, there is a place here for that.
This isn't it.  Mr. Parker has corrected your misunderstanding of kamae. Be a good student and say "thank you sir".


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 30, 2012)

To try and salvage what looks like a thread that's crashing and burning, I will pose a question to those more knoweldgeable on the specific ryu ha than me (i.e. Chris).

What are the reasonings in your experience as to why the different schools would have their postures the particular ways they do it? To put it more clearly, why is something like Koto ryu's ichimonji different tahn say Gyokko ryu's version of it. Strategically speaking, why express the kamae in those different ways?

I hope I make sense.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 31, 2012)

Yeah, you make sense... unfortunately, the best, most complete answer I can give is "because it's Koto Ryu". 

Of course, I would be remiss not to point out that I haven't come across a kamae called "Ichimonji" in Koto Ryu... the Kurai Dori (position taking) in Koto Ryu is made up of five kamae; Hidari Seigan, Migi Seigan, Hoko, Bobi, and Hira Ichimonji. There are, as always, extraneous kamae, but I haven't come across an Ichimonji, mainly as Seigan takes the same role. There is an Ichimonji in Togakure, as well as Gyokko, though... and Koto Ryu's Hira Ichimonji is sometimes done rather differently to other forms of Hira Ichimonji (namely that one leg is raised, with your foot near your support leg's knee, and your knee pointing out to the side, making it a Hicho form... but with very different reason than Hicho from Gyokko Ryu).

But the thing to remember when you're exploring kamae is that they are physical expressions of tactics that express the approach of the Ryu itself, so they are never arbitrary in their design.


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## blackswordshinobi (Mar 31, 2012)

bujinkan use Ichimonji no kamae as ther frist  but   Seigan is crect eye in sword  training  hiar is fat  but i see you wasnt dis but  is are physical expressions that i do every day


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 31, 2012)

blackswordshinobi said:


> bujinkan use Ichimonji no kamae as ther frist  but   Seigan is crect eye in sword  training  hiar is fat  but i see you wasnt dis but  is are physical expressions that i do every day



Qwah???  Arroo?


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 31, 2012)

blackswordshinobi said:


> bujinkan use Ichimonji no kamae as ther frist  but   Seigan is crect eye in sword  training  hiar is fat  but i see you wasnt dis but  is are physical expressions that i do every day



Let's see if I can translate:

"The bujinkan uses ichimonji no kamae as their first"  Do you mean its the first kamae taught? That would make sense as usually the ninpo kihon happo are taught early on and quite a few of them begin in ichimonji.

"But seigan is correct eye in swords training" ...ok? It's "correct eye" no matter what 'cause that's what the word means. Are you reffering to Chris mentioning Seigan no kamae in koto ryu? Did you not know it is also an unarmed kamae, or a kamae with staff weapons?

"Hiar is fat but i see you wasnt dis but is are physical expressions that i do every day"    This statement makes no sense. I have no idea what you are trying to say.


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 31, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> This statement makes no sense. I have no idea what you are trying to say.



About it. I get the feeling with all the threads he's started that he's trying to show us how much of an expert ninja he is. Failing badly, given the poor communications skills and failings in actual knowledge.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 1, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Let's see if I can translate:
> 
> "The bujinkan uses ichimonji no kamae as their first"  Do you mean its the first kamae taught? That would make sense as usually the ninpo kihon happo are taught early on and quite a few of them begin in ichimonji.
> 
> ...



Agreed with the translation... and with the confusion at the end there.

In regards to Seigan no Kamae, well, let's see.

Koto Ryu teaches Hidari Seigan no Kamae and Migi Seigan no Kamae in it's Koppojutsu methods.

Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu has both Seigan no Kamae and Katate Seigan no Kamae.

(Hontai) Takagi Yoshin Ryu has Katate Seigan no Kamae (quite different to SFR's kamae of the same name).

Togakure Ryu Biken has Seigan no Kamae, as well as variants.

Kukishinden Ryu has Seigan no Kamae in it's Dakentaijutsu, Seigan no Kamae in it's Rokushakubojutsu, Seigan no Kamae in it's Jojutsu, Seigan no Kamae in it's Kenpo, Seigan no Kamae and Naka Seigan no Kamae for Kodachi, Seigan no Kamae and Naka Seigan no Kamae for Naginata and Bisentojutsu, Seigan no Kamae for Yari.... then you have other lines of Kukishin Ryu with Seigan no Kamae for Hanbo and so forth.... 

It's a pretty common name for a kamae, when it all comes down to it.


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## Troy Wideman (Apr 1, 2012)

Hi Chris,

Just curious, which lineage are you referring to inrelation to the Takagi Yoshin Ryu having Katate Seigan No Kamae.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Aiki Lee (Apr 1, 2012)

Also why would Koto ryu differentiate between a left and right sided seigan no kamae?


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## blackswordshinobi (Apr 1, 2012)

that i do every day    translate meaning  i trained every day   togakure ryu ninjutsu and ninpo is what i am studing  point of the  kamae not where come from there basic stances  postuer to get read go into a fight  christ might right but  what you think is  me be mad it wasnt Seigan No Kamae is in lot martial arts!


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## Bester (Apr 1, 2012)

blackswordshinobi said:


> that i do every day    translate meaning  i trained every day   togakure ryu ninjutsu and ninpo is what i am studing  point of the  kamae not where come from there basic stances  postuer to get read go into a fight  christ might right but  what you think is  me be mad it wasnt Seigan No Kamae is in lot martial arts!



What?


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## Chris Parker (Apr 2, 2012)

Troy Wideman said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> Just curious, which lineage are you referring to inrelation to the Takagi Yoshin Ryu having Katate Seigan No Kamae.
> 
> ...



Hi Troy, good to see you again!

I've heard it associated with both the Ishitani and Mizuta-den lines (although not really taught in the Bujinkan form of the Mizuta-den). I've been told by Genbukan members that the "common" form of Katate Seigan used in the KJJR is a variation of the kamae from the Ishitani-den HTYR. Of course, I'm always thrilled to get better information if this is out.



Himura Kenshin said:


> Also why would Koto ryu differentiate between a left and right sided seigan no kamae?



Because they do... 



blackswordshinobi said:


> that i do every day    translate meaning  i trained every day   togakure ryu ninjutsu and ninpo is what i am studing  point of the  kamae not where come from there basic stances  postuer to get read go into a fight  christ might right but  what you think is  me be mad it wasnt Seigan No Kamae is in lot martial arts!



You don't train in Togakure Ryu, Billy. You may have some elements in what you're using as home study material, but you don't train in Togakure Ryu itself. That much is very obvious.


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## blackswordshinobi (Apr 2, 2012)

who cares you talk until blue in  face im training togakure ryu ninjutsu and ninpo most gogoy no kata is five elements furm so want tell you more
gyokko ryu kinon hoppo is part togakure ryu ninjutsu ....................


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## Chris Parker (Apr 2, 2012)

No, it's not. Gyokko Ryu is Gyokko Ryu, Togakure Ryu is Togakure Ryu, they are separate (but related) systems.

Can you describe the structure of Togakure Ryu?


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## Troy Wideman (Apr 2, 2012)

Hi Chris,

Actually it is almost the reverse. The Mizuta den line has 5 official kamae that are used and usually in a specific section of the ryu ha. The ishitani den line does not really have a kamae section that is taught. It is usually demonstrated with shizen kamae, however, Tanemura sensei does use the katate seigan from the KJJR within the ryu ha, same as the one I used to demonstrate the patterns on my youtube video. There are other kamae's used but just not taught seperately as a sections. Hope I made sense.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman




Chris Parker said:


> Hi Troy, good to see you again!
> 
> I've heard it associated with both the Ishitani and Mizuta-den lines (although not really taught in the Bujinkan form of the Mizuta-den). I've been told by Genbukan members that the "common" form of Katate Seigan used in the KJJR is a variation of the kamae from the Ishitani-den HTYR. Of course, I'm always thrilled to get better information if this is out.
> 
> ...


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## Chris Parker (Apr 3, 2012)

Hi Troy, 

Yep, perfect sense. I might just PM you on some clarification of details, if you don't mind....


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## Troy Wideman (Apr 3, 2012)

Hi Chris,

Sure.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Aiki Lee (Apr 3, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Because they do...



Huh. I was kind of hoping there was some deep inciteful purpose to it. Some secret reason that only the truest of the shadow warriors would know. Guess sometimes it is just that simple.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 3, 2012)

I got asked why I practice stick work with both hands...the EPAK folks only train dominant hand. It's a "because thats how we do it" answer, with the deeper explanation being one of weapon familiarity, ability to adapt should you lose use of the dominant hand, etc.  My guess is that's the 'deeper' bit here.  Differentiate because 'they do' with the reason being something like that, or just 'lets us know which hand we're working on right now'.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 4, 2012)

Troy Wideman said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> Sure.
> 
> ...



Thanks Troy, just gotta clear some room and get my thoughts in order.... 



Himura Kenshin said:


> Huh. I was kind of hoping there was some deep inciteful purpose to it. Some secret reason that only the truest of the shadow warriors would know. Guess sometimes it is just that simple.



Ha, honestly, Himura, that was the deep and insightful answer... thing is, it gains depth with your understanding of Koto Ryu (in this case), until then, it's really just that simple. The way to get to that depth is to make a serious study of the Ryu in question, then the answers become apparent. Otherwise, it's just one of those quirks, and can be taken as such.


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## blackswordshinobi (Apr 4, 2012)

christ not  to  be disrespectful but just becaues  im not in bujinkan dont mean im not learning togakure ryu  ninjutsu an ninpo hayes have  three degree's  in it fact traning from heart and mind as willing to do it yes you dis me on this but hell  to shin do some same teaching in mondern way  but this post over any way sorry if you think i was rude to you i wasn't


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 4, 2012)

The thing is Billy, this is a Traditional Japanese Ninjutsu area. I've got no real issues with Mr. Hayes, I grew up reading his books in fact. But this isn't the place to discuss Quest/Toshindo. We've got a separate area for that.  It may be nitpicking, but they are 2 different systems.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 5, 2012)

blackswordshinobi said:


> christ not  to  be disrespectful but just becaues  im not in bujinkan dont mean im not learning togakure ryu  ninjutsu an ninpo hayes have  three degree's  in it fact traning from heart and mind as willing to do it yes you dis me on this but hell  to shin do some same teaching in mondern way  but this post over any way sorry if you think i was rude to you i wasn't



No, Billy, I didn't think you were being rude, but I don't think you understand what you're talking about.

Togakure Ryu is a specific Ryu, a specific system within the teachings of the Bujinkan and related schools. And it is one of the rarest to find anyone who actually knows much about it, as there is actually very little in the school by way of techniques.

I'll put it this way: If you're training in the Kihon Happo, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

If you're training in Sanshin no Gata, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

If you're training with Kusari Fundo, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

If you're using the term Ukemi to refer to breakfalls and rolls, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

If your training involves techniques against strikes or kicks, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

When you're training methods and techniques from Kukishinden Ryu, including all the weapon work, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

When you're training in methods and techniques from Shinden Fudo Ryu, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

When you're training in methods and technqiues from Gyokko Ryu, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

When you're training in methods and techniques from Koto Ryu, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

When you're training in methods and techniques from Takagi Yoshin Ryu, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

If you're training in a modern form, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

From all of your posts and videos, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

Really, although the Togakure Ryu name used to be used to refer to all the teachings, that is not the case. And Stephen Hayes, in his early books, used the Togakure Ryu name to refer to a lot of things that weren't Togakure Ryu at all... either because he didn't know, or he didn't understand. 

If you still want to say you're training in Togakure Ryu, can you describe the way the school is structured? For example, Gyokko Ryu is structured with Jo Ryaku no Maki, Chu Ryaku no Maki, Ge Ryaku no Maki (with the Kihon Gata before that), Koto Ryu is structured with Shoden no Gata, Hekito no Gata, Chuden no Gata, and Okuden no Gata, Kukishinden Ryu Dakentaijutsu is structured with Shoden Gata, Chuden Gata, Sabaki Gata, Okuden Gata, and Shirabe Moguri Gata... and I can explain each and every section of each, what they are made up of, and why they are structured that way.

Can you explain the way Togakure Ryu is structured, and the differences between each level?


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## Troy Wideman (Apr 6, 2012)

Hi Chris,

Tried to respond to you but your message box is full.

Troy


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## The Last Legionary (Apr 6, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Can you explain the way Togakure Ryu is structured, and the differences between each level?




Billy?


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## Chris Parker (Apr 6, 2012)

Troy Wideman said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> Tried to respond to you but your message box is full.
> 
> Troy



Sorry, Troy, just had a power outage here for the last hour or so.... some room is cleared again now.


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## Troy Wideman (Apr 6, 2012)

Hi Chris,

Tried again but said the same thing. YOu are full, out of room.

Troy


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## Chris Parker (Apr 7, 2012)

Argh!

Yeah, I saw that.... had some room cleared, and saw you were Private Messaging at about 2:30am, so I figured I'd go get some sleep (unlike me, really...), then received a couple of messages from other people before you got through.... 

Trying to clear some room (again!). If not, you can always get me on MAP as well.

Thanks again, Troy, I appreciate the effort.


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