# Wing Chun in decline: My quest for the historical model of Wing Chun



## wingchunguy1 (Mar 23, 2018)

Here's the intro excerpt from my blog post I want to share:

Wing Chun is in a state of decline in the martial arts community. Its failure to adopt the practices of modern martial arts and to evolve in response to reality is resulting in a declining membership and common perception of the art.

So far, the WC community has failed to create modern organizations that standardize and certify schools and organize good competitions in comparison to the modern martial arts. Additionally the community is heavily segmented because of continuing archaic practices such as the lineage system, in which meritocracy is annihilated because people would rather put faith in the magic hearsay of their kung fu "elders", instead of observing reality to make their own conclusions.

Meanwhile, Wing Chun produces good fighters at a much lower rate than any other popular martial art, and increasingly the WC fighters who are willing to represent Wing Chin in public challenge matches are unable compete at all using their Wing Chun against modern martial art fighters. Yes Wing Chun will probably never truly die, but its reputation as a martial art made for real fighting is seriously at risk.

The only way forward is to reform how Wing Chun is practiced and how Wing Chun is taught. Wing Chun must adopt the successful practices of the modern martial arts (Judo, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing, etc.).  For this to happen, we need a standard reference of Wing Chun that can be developed in an open source way. I write about the results of my research in pursuit of this in this post.

Link: Wing Chun in decline: My quest for the historical model of Wing Chun


----------



## Nobody Important (Mar 24, 2018)

wingchunguy1 said:


> Here's the intro excerpt from my blog post I want to share:
> 
> Wing Chun is in a state of decline in the martial arts community. Its failure to adopt the practices of modern martial arts and to evolve in response to reality is resulting in a declining membership and common perception of the art.
> 
> ...


This post isn't  directed specifically to you wingchunguy1, but to the forum in general. 

When it comes to the OP, I used to think this way too. In reality Wing Chun will continue to decline as long as all the branches are made to conform to predefined parameters set forth by a popular consensus that is contrary to their own beliefs.

Let's look at Boxing & Jujitsu, with Boxing focusing on punching as a means of subjucating the opponent & Jujitsu subjucating the opponent through throwing & grappling. This doesn't nean that Boxing is devoid of kicks, throws or grapples or that Jujitsu does not include strikes, the history of these arts clearly states otherwise, but their main emphasis is very specific. These arts have a good track record when it comes to realistic pressure tested effectiveness  because of the following factors:

1. Simple singular & short combination techniques that are applied in a realistic manner and are continuously refined & pressure tested.

2. A specific focus on objective defined by an agreed upon ruleset applied in its own sporting venue that reinforces the realistic strategies and applications taught.

3. The freedom of allowing multiple similar and adaptable strategies to be employed in their instruction, while simultaneously allowing for adaptation of technique because it isn't rigidly bound by rules of movement.

These three things above "violate" most traditional mainstream Wing Chun ideology. Also, Wing Chun is viewed by some as a concept or methodology, whereas by others it is viewed as an art more rigididly and specifically defined in it's use and action.

Herein is where the problem lies, IMO Wing Chun should place equal emphasis on Striking, Throwing, Kicking & Grappling giving no preference of one method over another, as it is a system to address the basic building blocks of fighting by learning how to refine large gross motor movement into fine motor movement in the most efficient manner possible. This makes it difficult, IMO, to relegate Wing Chun to a singular approach and methodology.

This isn't an ideology shared by the majority of Wing Chun practitioners, most believe it is simply a short range fighting method that has a focus on hand striking, yet, these same individuals look to Chi Sau as a means of developing striking skills over footwork & body movement as the foundation for delivering a strike. This isn't to say that they don't employ footwork & body movement, but the emphasis is secondary to developing defensive bridging through Chi Sau.

Punching is not developed through employment of a defensive movement or mindset. Chi Sau, even used offensively, is a defense first tactic that places emphasis on using the arm to bridge, impede, parry or stop the opponents incoming limb prior to attack. This is a defense first mindset no matter how you look at it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing when employed sparingly, but all too often it leads the practitioner down a rabbit hole of ever increasing defenses that multiply in complexity that stray further and further from realistic use under the pressure and spontaneity of a real attack.

There are too many opinions as to what Wing Chun is and how it should be used for it to ever have it's own fighting format outside of Chi Sau or for it to be represented in a full contact format that will be accepted by the majority as being recognisable as traditional Wing Chun.

For now, the best format to fully represent the range of Wing Chun as an art defined by the general consenses is Sanda. This allows for a multitude of approaches and only requires the participants to pressure test their methodology to prove their interpretations effectiveness.

This is just my opinion, feel free to disagree.


----------



## wanderingstudent (Mar 24, 2018)

Seems to me most Traditional Arts are in decline.  Not sure if it is just a cycle:

Prior to 70's Boxing was big
70's was Bruce Lee and Kung Fu
80's saw Karate Kid and Karate
90's to today MMA and Current Offerings

Or if people just aren't that active or interested.


----------



## KPM (Mar 24, 2018)

You would need to have statistics.  Are there fewer people studying a "traditional" martial art today than there were in the 70's?  I doubt that because martial arts as a whole have become more popular over time.  More people in general are studying martial arts...including "traditional" martial arts.  There is no doubt that more people are studying Wing Chun today than at any other point in history.  And my guess is that the majority of those Wing Chun schools have a very "traditional" orientation.   We do see a modern evolution of Wing Chun with the addition of more and more "boxing-like" elements.   And I like that trend and hope it expands!  But that won't necessarily mean that "classical" or "traditional" Wing Chun dies out.  I hope it doesn't!


----------



## TMA17 (Mar 24, 2018)

I'm sure the Ip Man movies gave WC a little boost over the years.

Without any data, it's speculative.  WC popularity seems to be growing within the Kung Fu world.  MMA will continue to grow, as it is now in many parts of Asia.  

WC has a lot of great core principles that can be added to other MA's or the other way around.  I hope that continues.


----------



## wanderingstudent (Mar 24, 2018)

I have no hard data, only observations of what happens around me.  There were a number of schools in my area, that have closed; only to be replaced by MMA gyms.

Bringing up evolution:

         Anyone else get told by their teach, if I come back in 10 years and you are doing this the same way; you've missed the point?

Beyond that:

         I plan on meeting up with some of my brothers, later in life; to see how there training has evolved.

          Have you done this, already?


----------



## wingchunguy1 (Mar 24, 2018)

wanderingstudent said:


> Seems to me most Traditional Arts are in decline.  Not sure if it is just a cycle:
> 
> Prior to 70's Boxing was big
> 70's was Bruce Lee and Kung Fu
> ...



Yeah I think you are right. But I also think that this was the case for JuJutsu during the late 1800s when Kano was alive, and he managed to reform/refine the best elements from traditional JuJutsu schools by combining that with modern western teaching and organizational methods. I think there is a simimlar opportunity to do so with Wing Chun today and I would personally like to see it happen.


----------



## wingchunguy1 (Mar 24, 2018)

KPM said:


> You would need to have statistics.  Are there fewer people studying a "traditional" martial art today than there were in the 70's?  I doubt that because martial arts as a whole have become more popular over time.  More people in general are studying martial arts...including "traditional" martial arts.  There is no doubt that more people are studying Wing Chun today than at any other point in history.  And my guess is that the majority of those Wing Chun schools have a very "traditional" orientation.   We do see a modern evolution of Wing Chun with the addition of more and more "boxing-like" elements.   And I like that trend and hope it expands!  But that won't necessarily mean that "classical" or "traditional" Wing Chun dies out.  I hope it doesn't!



It would be great to have a lot of statistical data, but when I say decline I do mean the public perception of Wing Chun is worsening, and I think theres many strong signs that point to this being the case. For example, WC today is not used to challenge martial artists of other styles as it supposedly could in the past (Yip Man's students, Yuen Kay San death duels, Bruce Lee).


----------



## Martial D (Mar 24, 2018)

wingchunguy1 said:


> Here's the intro excerpt from my blog post I want to share:
> 
> Wing Chun is in a state of decline in the martial arts community. Its failure to adopt the practices of modern martial arts and to evolve in response to reality is resulting in a declining membership and common perception of the art.
> 
> ...


You whole premise is irrepairably problematic.

First, you are talking about wing chun like it's this one monolithic thing, when in fact it's a very loosley defined group of very different approaches and training methods. 

Second, there are already many people combining wc methods and training with other methods and training all over the globe. (Myself included)

Third, why should anyone happy in their training adjust what they are doing to appease one faceless internet profile?(you) Why should they, I, or anyone care what you think?(serious question)

And lastly, since you have come as a reformer, where can I see an example of your reformed 'historical' wing chun so we have something meaningful to talk about here?


----------



## Callen (Mar 24, 2018)

wingchunguy1 said:


> Here's the intro excerpt from my blog post I want to share:
> 
> Wing Chun is in a state of decline in the martial arts community. Its failure to adopt the practices of modern martial arts and to evolve in response to reality is resulting in a declining membership and common perception of the art.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your blog post.

Unfortunately, statistics and real data are needed for most of your points in this piece. Your opinions alone, are not enough to convince an informed, more experienced audience.


----------



## wanderingstudent (Mar 25, 2018)

Some one mentioned 'modernizing' by including Boxing.  Wasn't this where Bruce Lee was going?

I feel styles should have a "historic" core, but also need to identify and address modern situations.

Good luck with your research...


----------



## Herbie (Mar 27, 2018)

Are the "traditional martial arts in decline" or is it possible the TMA were never as effective as we were all led to believe.  All of us were told stories of the good old days when Master So and So took on all comers, ...  We assume that, because a guy with one year of boxing or MMA training can eat the lunch of most TMA folks with several years training, that our training is not up to par with the training back in the old days.  Maybe, most of the legends about how good the old guys were are exaggerated.


----------



## DaveB (Mar 27, 2018)

The opening post makes much of WC lack of "good fighters" presumably in MMA.

The thing is MMA is a mix. I don't quite get why WC gets denigrated for having hobbyist fighters beaten by MMA pros when Pro fighters of Boxing and BJJ get beaten in MMA rings.

I want to see a crop of WC fighters put through the same rigourous training of other combat sportsmen with equivalent amounts of contact, cardio and weight training and training with boxers wrestlers ground fighters etc exactly as an mma fighter would but employing wing chun techniques and methods.

I'm pretty confident you'd see at least as many wins as losses.


----------



## KPM (Mar 27, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I want to see a crop of WC fighters put through the same rigourous training of other combat sportsmen with equivalent amounts of contact, cardio and weight training and training with boxers wrestlers ground fighters etc exactly as an mma fighter would but employing wing chun techniques and methods.
> 
> I'm pretty confident you'd see at least as many wins as losses.



I'm pretty confident the "Wing Chun" guy would end up looking like any of the other MMA fighters he is training with and against.  I'm pretty confident that after all of that...you wouldn't be able to tell the Wing Chun guy from any other MMA guy when he steps into the cage.


----------



## DaveB (Mar 28, 2018)

KPM said:


> I'm pretty confident the "Wing Chun" guy would end up looking like any of the other MMA fighters he is training with and against.  I'm pretty confident that after all of that...you wouldn't be able to tell the Wing Chun guy from any other MMA guy when he steps into the cage.


Probably not but that's really the point. 

Mmaists who are clearly 1 style above all are the exceptions despite varied backgrounds. People now even argue that MMA is a style in its own right. 

No pure style is expected to be successful in the MMA environment, except wing chun.

Also I actually would disagree that the modern training would make WC indistinguishable. There would be fewer differences, but the technique and tactics would shine through as they do for most arts. 

Techniques and tactics are the martial art, not the training.


----------



## Trondyne (Aug 24, 2021)

> Chi Sau, even used offensively, is a defense first tactic that places emphasis on using the arm to bridge, impede, parry or stop the opponents incoming limb prior to attack. This is a defense first mindset no matter how you look at it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing when employed sparingly, but all too often it leads the practitioner down a rabbit hole of ever increasing defenses that multiply in complexity that stray further and further from realistic use under the pressure and spontaneity of a real attack.


There is nothing defensive about chisao, not in terms of what this drill teaches...

There is one singular main point to the drill and here it is:  You face your opponent with a high pressure hose pointing at his center -- he does the same to you...  Both streams cancel each other out if pointed directly at each other -- the first person to F up (meaning leave the center) gets soaked...  

So what does this mean?  

It means that both players are *ALWAYS attacking* and the first one that fails to do so loses....

So, defensive?  Absolutely not.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 24, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> It means that both players are *ALWAYS attacking* and the first one that fails to do so loses....


Just for the sake of discussion, if you charge in with jab-cross (like WC chain punches). Your opponent also charge in with left-right-hooks. You protect your center from inside out. Your opponents protect his center from outside in.

Who will win?


----------



## Trondyne (Aug 24, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Just for the sake of discussion, if you charge in with jab-cross (like WC chain punches). Your opponent also charge in with left-right-hooks. You protect your center from inside out. Your opponents protect his center from outside in.
> 
> Who will win?



Really?

I can just say the one with better attributes but what's the point of that example?

Is this a slightly veiled critique of centerline theory?


----------



## Argus (Aug 24, 2021)

wingchunguy1 said:


> Here's the intro excerpt from my blog post I want to share:
> 
> Wing Chun is in a state of decline in the martial arts community. Its failure to adopt the practices of modern martial arts and to evolve in response to reality is resulting in a declining membership and common perception of the art.
> 
> ...



I generally agree with you, though I think perhaps you've partially misdiagnosed the problem and solution.

I was never interested in gamification and sportification of Wing Chun, though I am very much interested in pressure testing it and making it functional.

I think that Wing Chun mostly suffers from:
#1 Not practicing against realistic, non-Wing Chun attacks
#2 Over specializing and over emphasizing things like Chisao (I personally value Chisao and sensitivity training very highly, and believe you should continue to practice it, but don't confuse it with combat or sparring, etc. And, understand its place, which is to build proper reflexes in a low intensity environment where students can explore the art and process the different sorts of energies and lines of attack that can occur. Treating it as a competitive exercise as many tend to do is not something that I'm sure is all that valuable. I get some inspiration from arts like Lameco and Kali Ilustrisimo where there are "free flowing" drills where one party counters, and the other feeds attacks, but also counters and throws in unexpected attacks/angles, etc. -- such that, the intensity is low enough to allow creativity and learning/exploring, but high enough to constantly offer a challenge, and unexpected angles of attack, etc. And, both parties learn: one practices being proactive, the other reactive/proactive. A lot of Wing Chun practice also tends to focus far too much on being reactive, at the expense of learning how to be proactive, which is absolutely necessary and is really at the heart of Wing Chun's offensive nature.)
#3 Not learning to hit effectively or deal with someone really trying to hit you
#4 In a sparring context, not knowing how to close into a range where Wing Chun is effective (*I personally do not believe that sparring and especially competition are the end all be all yardstick by which one should judge an art, but it is still an important part of training)

There are people who train and teach Wing Chun very effectively already, and have been doing for a long time. Seek out and learn from them. Perhaps what Wing Chun suffers most from is a certain close mindedness and unwillingness to train with other teachers, lineages, and styles, etc.

In the end, realize that competitive fighters are extremely specialized in exactly what is necessary for their competitive environment, and put in a ton of hard work -- much more than most, somewhat more casual TMA schools. It's not what you train, but how you train. No need to modify your Wing Chun so much as modifying how you practice it, I think. So, I do agree with you on the latter bolded part. I do not think that focusing on some competitive environment is necessarily the answer, but teachers probably do need to focus a whole lot more on making the basics more functional under stress, and against other styles -- for both themselves, and their students. We're very good at countering mid-level, centerline punches delivered in our ideal range. That's great. But how do you deal with other lines and other energies, and opponents who don't stick using Wing Chun principals and body mechanics? That takes practice.

Remember also, though, that Wing Chun was sort of in a boom with the Ip Man movies. Now that that's gone, it's back to being more obscure, I think.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 24, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> what's the point of that example?


When

- you throw a straight punch, if your opponent throws a hook punch, his hook punch can knock down your straight punch.
 - your opponent throws a hook punch, if you throw a straight punch, can your straight punch knock down his hook punch?

The hook punch has advantage over the straight punch. IMO, it's easier to protect your center line from outside in than from inside out.


----------



## Cynik75 (Aug 25, 2021)

Argus said:


> There are people who train and teach Wing Chun very effectively already, and have been doing for a long time. Seek out and learn from them.


Any names and examples of effectiveness?


----------



## wckf92 (Aug 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Just for the sake of discussion, if you charge in with jab-cross (like WC chain punches). Your opponent also charge in with left-right-hooks. You protect your center from inside out. Your opponents protect his center from outside in.
> 
> Who will win?



? 
What does this have to do with what @Trondyne posted? He was discussing chi sau. Are you saying that in your version of chi sau you "jab cross" aka chain punch while "charging in"? 

Again, in the wing chun I learned there are concepts and ideas contained in the forms which address 'outside in' and 'inside out'. 

Finally, chi sau is not about "winning". If that's your mindset then great, but it is not the point of that drill. It is simply an attribute builder. If you are concerned with someone winning or losing then you are training your ego.


----------



## wckf92 (Aug 25, 2021)

Argus said:


> I generally agree with you, though I think perhaps you've partially misdiagnosed the problem and solution.
> 
> I was never interested in gamification and sportification of Wing Chun, though I am very much interested in pressure testing it and making it functional.
> 
> ...



Great post! Lots of truth bombs in here.


----------



## wckf92 (Aug 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When
> 
> - you throw a straight punch, if your opponent throws a hook punch, his hook punch can knock down your straight punch.
> - your opponent throws a hook punch, if you throw a straight punch, can your straight punch knock down his hook punch?
> ...



WC doesn't tend to throw punches with the intent of "knocking down the other guys punch". 

But, to your comment: curved can defeat straight and straight can defeat curved.


----------



## Trondyne (Aug 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When
> 
> - you throw a straight punch, if your opponent throws a hook punch, his hook punch can knock down your straight punch.
> - your opponent throws a hook punch, if you throw a straight punch, can your straight punch knock down his hook punch?
> ...



The framing is off...  Wing Chun isn't:

1.  About charging in randomly from outside with a barrage of chain punches
2.  That straight always beats a curve. (*Wing Chun has curves*)
3.  A long range focused art although it has long range tools.

In Western Boxing fighters more often use a jab to enter with for obvious reasons... Is this always the case, no.


It should be fairly obvious that if someone places their fist in *close proximity to your face* you will have trouble attacking around it in time. The closer the range the less time there is to go around it or evade it.

WCK (Wing Chun Kuen) is a close range often in-contact art..  Timing and geometry efficiency changes as the range changes...  You could say the centerline width increases as the range does creating a triangle shape pointing at the opponent. Like this shape: V

"Clearing the line" from the inside out uses a shorter path, has more leverage and timing advantages.  WCK mostly hits from wherever the hand is, directly to the target, WCK does not move to the inside first...  Attacking "the line" means we are attacking the opponent's CG, in CMA that's called *energy issuing* and is used to steal his balance... (the high pressure stream of water)

Using the centerline gives the WCK fighter a strategic reference to use for attack and defense.

Moving along the the line of his attack allows the use of forward defense/offense that has a timing advantage not possible in lateral movements (minimizes early/late intercepts and timing errors JKD) Taking the line invites the other person to go around it. Using that line means you can deflect and attack in one beat or one action *along that line*. (JKD)

In contact WCK uses the line to "listen" for the opponent's force to leave (lateral energy) in which case we *don't. *lol  This very simple idea allows close range clinch options that otherwise wouldn't be possible (path of no resistance).

There are lots of elements within the art (perhaps too many) centerline and use thereof is a common thread that helps bring it all together, but you have to use your brain when using it, it's not a cure all.

Effective use of linear attacks have a timing and efficiency advantage when used correctly.  WCK protects a "room" by *filling it up with junk.*  If I pile a load of junk into a room from floor to ceiling you'll have trouble getting in their even if the door isn't locked...

You can disagree all you want about the strategy of WCK lots of people prefer other methods...


----------



## wckf92 (Aug 25, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> WCK mostly hits from wherever the hand is, directly to the target,



Exactly. This is a point which is greatly misunderstood...yet is in the forms.


----------



## Trondyne (Aug 25, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Exactly. This is a point which is greatly misunderstood...yet is in the forms.


Of course it depends on what you're trying to do...  We also may well already be on the line as in the first form which clearly brings the hand onto the line before the punch....  It's up to the user to decide what makes sense....  

When I see people claiming to do WCK and not on the line at all then I would question the method...


----------



## geezer (Aug 28, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> Of course it depends on what you're trying to do...  We also may well already be on the line as in the first form which clearly brings the hand onto the line before the punch....  It's up to the user to decide what makes sense....
> 
> When I see people claiming to do WCK and not on the line at all then I would question the method...


Not sure what you mean by "on the line"...Centerline? 

You see centerline punching stressed most in Siu Nim Tau, but by Chum Kiu and Biu Tze you also explore situations in which the hand may be off-center and follows the shortest path to it's target. The Biu Tze "hook" is one example. The concepts of _efficiency_ and following the _shortest distance_ to the target can take precedence over _centerline_ in many situations. 

Context is everything!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 28, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> brings the hand onto the line before the punch....


If you close your

- front door, your side doors will be open.
- side doors, your front door will be open.

It depends on whether you want your opponent to come in through a certain door, you then open that door and invite him in.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 28, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Any names and examples of effectiveness?


Well, my Sifu (now deceased) was in the Chris Chan lineage in San Francisco.  My impression was that at least some of those fellows could definitely hold their own.  I don’t think they ever got into MMA bouts so I doubt you will find any of them on video.  But whatever.  I know my Sifu had to unleash on some fellows here and there.  It kept him safe.  But hey, it’s not on YouTube so maybe it didn’t really happen…

I know at some point he was part of a school full-contact matchup against a Muay Thai school from Thailand.  He was the only one of the wing Chun guys who was successful in that match and knocked his opponent out.  He was completely disgusted with the experience and told his Sifu, never again.  It was just an ego- building exercise and he had felt coerced into taking part. 

That is one of the things I really respected about him: he could see through the crap and recognize the dick-measuring competition for what it was.


----------



## Poppity (Aug 30, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, my Sifu (now deceased) was in the Chris Chan lineage in San Francisco.  My impression was that at least some of those fellows could definitely hold their own.  I don’t think they ever got into MMA bouts so I doubt you will find any of them on video.  But whatever.  I know my Sifu had to unleash on some fellows here and there.  It kept him safe.  But hey, it’s not on YouTube so maybe it didn’t really happen…
> 
> I know at some point he was part of a school full-contact matchup against a Muay Thai school from Thailand.  He was the only one of the wing Chun guys who was successful in that match and knocked his opponent out.  He was completely disgusted with the experience and told his Sifu, never again.  It was just an ego- building exercise and he had felt coerced into taking part.
> 
> That is one of the things I really respected about him: he could see through the crap and recognize the dick-measuring competition for what it was.



I believe I can clear this up. The guy with the biggest dick is my friend Dave.

Although I have never seen the offending article we know this to be true because Dave practices the same martial art as someone whom he has watched on the TV who is a world class fighter.

We also know Dave is a formidable fighter because he spends his time deriding martial arts he doesn't practice on the internet and boasting about his own prowess.

As his friends we are always incredibly impressed by Dave.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 30, 2021)

Snark said:


> I believe I can clear this up. The guy with the biggest dick is my friend Dave.
> 
> Although I have never seen the offending article we know this to be true because Dave practices the same martial art as someone whom he has watched on the TV who is a world class fighter.
> 
> ...


I think this is a surprisingly accurate assessment of the state of things.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 30, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> 2.  That straight always beats a curve.


Do you have any proof for this?


----------



## geezer (Sep 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you have any proof for this?


I think he was actually _disagreeing_ with that Wing Chun cliché about straight lines always beating curves.


----------



## Koryuhoka (Sep 4, 2021)

I find Wing Chun is actually thriving. People are very interested in the less popular lineages like Gu Lo Village. There is interest in methods by Pan Nam and Chu Shong Tin. These lineages are gaining followers as of late.


----------



## geezer (Sep 5, 2021)

Koryuhoka said:


> I find Wing Chun is actually thriving. People are very interested in the less popular lineages like Gu Lo Village. There is interest in methods by Pan Nam and Chu Shong Tin. These lineages are gaining followers as of late.


On one hand, I'm genuinely glad to hear that. I'm glad people are still interested in Wing Chun.

On the other hand, many of the people drawn to the more esoteric and internal branches of the martial arts (including Wing Chun) are not seeking a fighting art. They are looking for something else. A sense of having found something special, secret, even "magical".

Back in the 80s, my old Chinese sifu once told me that there was a reason why Yip Man's kwoon became so well known in Hong Kong in it's day. His students could fight. The system worked. The little-known and secret WC branches stayed "secret" ...not because they had something so special, but because they couldn't stand up to a real test. They didn't want real fighters showing up at their door.

He expressed doubt that that was still the case with a lot of the newer generation in WC. And that was over 30 years ago. Now, we have very few fighters ....and people are still looking for magic.

Check out this video by Nima King of the CST lineage. There's some stuff here I agree with, but also a lot of parlor tricks. Look at the way the guy jumps around when Nima raises his leg at 2:18. That's almost like _"Yellow Bamboo"_.






TBH my old sifu did a few energy tricks himself. After many years with him I asked him why he did that ....when he actually had some good fighters. He told me "Most people don't want to fight. You are selling them _dreams._"


----------



## Koryuhoka (Sep 5, 2021)

geezer said:


> On one hand, I'm genuinely glad to hear that. I'm glad people are still interested in Wing Chun.
> 
> On the other hand, many of the people drawn to the more esoteric and internal branches of the martial arts (including Wing Chun) are not seeking a fighting art. They are looking for something else. A sense of having found something special, secret, even "magical".
> 
> ...


The original post is about Wing Chun in Decline. My response was that it is growing in popularity, not that people are still interested in it. 

The groups I mentioned are not esoteric or internal. Gu Lo Wing Chun is from the village Leung Jan went to live in his retirement. There, he expanded WC, adding content. It is not a well known branch of WC. 

Chu Shong Tin's method relies on correct body mechanics for effective application, rather than Internal Breath. Yip Man taught Master Chu a more advanced method through complete relaxation and allowing the body parts to move as one, instead of individually. Master John Kaufman explains this very clearly. 

There are not parlor tricks in CST's method. Only correct body alignment, intention, breath - contract, expand, float and sink. Maybe Nima King's method of transmission is not familiar with you. I know little about him so I cannot comment. 

It seems that if you have an interest in the deeper understand of a martial art, people will consider it a waste of time and deem the theories inapplicable. But no one considers that perhaps Yip Man had a deep grasp of the theories he taught to CST, which he was able to apply with great skill, and wanted to make sure it didn't die with him. 

Perhaps also, people have not made the connection with applying the deeper teachings. They appear to be meaningless until someone makes the connection. 

It happened in Okinawan Karate, with the advent of Seiyu Oyata, Tetsuhiro Hokama, Kishaba Sensei and others who imparted the deeper teachings of Okinawa Bujutsu. Karate used to be a kick/block/sweep/punch art. And now, there are people who are applying what little is left of "ti", and the skills taught to the Okinawas by the 36 Families that moved to Okinawa from China around 1394. 

Making the connection is everything. Believing that the outward appearance is the sum of it, is disastrous and leads to the mindset of today's "striking art" "grappling art" generation.


----------



## BrendanF (Sep 6, 2021)

Koryuhoka said:


> Yip Man taught Master Chu a more advanced method through complete relaxation and allowing the body parts to move as one, instead of individually. Master John Kaufman explains this very clearly.



It's pretty clear that CST developed his style of WC extensively _after_ his training with YM. He was widely known as the 'king of SLT' because of his personal preference for incorporating zhan zhuang type of work into his practice.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 6, 2021)

geezer said:


> On one hand, I'm genuinely glad to hear that. I'm glad people are still interested in Wing Chun.
> 
> On the other hand, many of the people drawn to the more esoteric and internal branches of the martial arts (including Wing Chun) are not seeking a fighting art. They are looking for something else. A sense of having found something special, secret, even "magical".


Ive seen this as well, but is this really new? I suspect things have been this way for a lot longer than you and I have been walking the earth.  Just my suspicion.  Some people can fight.  Many cannot, or at least not so well as we might have assumed, given the training.  Most don’t train appropriately, but that isn’t the fault of the system.  It is in how people train.



geezer said:


> Back in the 80s, my old Chinese sifu once told me that there was a reason why Yip Man's kwoon became so well known in Hong Kong in it's day. His students could fight.


All of them?  Seriously?  I think schools get a reputation based on a small number of highly successful folks, but there are a lot more who never make a name for themselves, never reach that level.  So are we looking back in time through rose colored glasses?  Nostalgic for a past that never was?


geezer said:


> He expressed doubt that that was still the case with a lot of the newer generation in WC. And that was over 30 years ago. Now, we have very few fighters ....and people are still looking for magic.


Every generation looks back to the “good old days” and laments the poor showing of the younger generation.  Your Sifu did it.  Perhaps you are doing it now?


geezer said:


> TBH my old sifu did a few energy tricks himself. After many years with him I asked him why he did that ....when he actually had some good fighters. He told me "Most people don't want to fight. You are selling them _dreams._"


So your Sifu contributed to the “downfall” of wing Chun, when he actually had some good fighters.  He “sold dreams”.   You’ve been honest here about some characteristics of your old Sifu.  It’s clear that he is a salesman and has his eye on the mighty dollar and wants control/power over things.  This is my impression, just from what you have posted here, over time.  So you are, in some ways, a product of his cynicism and his example.  You can see through it, but on some level it still clouds your outlook.  

take care of your own training.  If you teach, do so to the best of your capabilities and keep the bar high.  Don’t worry about what others are doing.


----------



## geezer (Sep 6, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> You’ve been honest here about some characteristics of your old Sifu.  It’s clear that he is a salesman and has his eye on the mighty dollar and wants control/power over things.  This is my impression, just from what you have posted here, over time.  So you are, in some ways, a product of his cynicism and his example.  You can see through it, but on some level it still clouds your outlook ...take care of your own training.  If you teach, do so to the best of your capabilities and keep the bar high.  Don’t worry about what others are doing.


Crane - Thanks for your thoughtful and honest response. Your advice is right on the mark.

Interesting fact - TBH I myself was never a "fighter". I first came to martial arts in my late teens with very unrealistic expectations based on reading books and magazines, and watching movies and TV. I had done some wrestling and enjoyed it, but didn't like getting punched. Looking back, how I expected to really fight without getting hit ..._a lot _...is a mystery to me now.  To a certain degree I guess I was "looking for magic" too.

My first experience in Asian martial arts was with a complicated "five-animal" system that purported to be "true Shaolin kung-fu" but was in fact just re-branded kempo seeking to ride the Bruce Lee inspired kung-fu craze of the mid 70s. The instructor also threw in a hodge-podge of new age and so-called "internal" exercises. Magic. And I was pretty well sucked into it.  I did learn a few decent kicks, punches and combinations, but 90% of what we trained was pretty useless and far too complicated to assimilate and apply.

Then I moved back to Arizona and found Wing Chun, and eventually I ended up training with my old Sifu. Unlike the stuff I learned before, I found his Wing Chun (Wing Tsun) relatively simple and direct, and I could make it work pretty well against my _friends_ who were training other systems like TKD and Kempo.

So I got some validation. As long as I worked against _friends_, I did pretty well. I did not seek out people who really fought hard like boxers and kickboxers. Remember, this was before MMA. Muay Thai was rare, and BJJ was unknown. But deep down, I knew my limitations and tried to be honest about them.

In later years, as I started teaching, I was upfront with students about my limitations. If I had younger students that wanted to go harder than we did, I had a good friend who coached MMA, and besides that, we were training at space sub-let at a _boxing gym_. The head coach was a real stand-up guy.

Anyway, It's been a long journey, after putting a lot of time into WC, I'd like to see it continue ...but both as traditional Southern Chinese Boxing and as a real, evolving fighting art, not phony baloney magical BS. Of course I don't expect most practitioners will be "fighters" any more than I was. Heck most people at MMA and boxing gyms are not hard core fighters.  I would just like to see WC work to stay an authentic and effective art.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 6, 2021)

geezer said:


> Crane - Thanks for your thoughtful and honest response. Your advice is right on the mark.
> 
> Interesting fact - TBH I myself was never a "fighter". I first came to martial arts in my late teens with very unrealistic expectations based on reading books and magazines, and watching movies and TV. I had done some wrestling and enjoyed it, but didn't like getting punched. Looking back, how I expected to really fight without getting hit ..._a lot _...is a mystery to me now.  To a certain degree I guess I was "looking for magic" too.
> 
> ...


Most people who train martial arts have no interest in fighting, meaning they have no interest in being a competition champion or fighting in the local bar every weekend.  Most reasonable folks would just like to get through life without engaging in violence.  They appreciate the exercise and the mental engagement that it provides and the community, as well as having a distinct advantage in the unlikely event that someone tries to mug them or otherwise rough them up.  And there is nothing wrong with that.  And neither is this an admission that “we only train to defeat the untrained,” that little piece of nonsense that I am seeing bandied about lately. 

By far, the majority of folks who train, meet this description.  Ive been open about my own disinterest in fighting, both in watching it and participating.  I feel no compulsion to justify it to anyone.  Honestly, it feels less paranoid and more realistic and honest about the training.

If you still find value in it, keep doing it.  What others think, those who want to cut it down, they don’t matter.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 6, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Most people who train martial arts have no interest in fighting,


If you are not interest in fighting, it doesn't mean that you are not interest in testing your MA skill against others.

- If you play 100% defense, can someone take/knock you down?
- Can you door guarding skill work on your opponent?
- ...

In order to collect such data, you have to test your skill against others. Is that fight? I don't think so.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 6, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you are not interest in fighting, it doesn't mean that you are not interest in testing your MA skill against others.


Unless it does.  Different strokes for different folks.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Most people who train martial arts have no interest in fighting, meaning they have no interest in being a competition champion or fighting in the local bar every weekend.  Most reasonable folks would just like to get through life without engaging in violence.  They appreciate the exercise and the mental engagement that it provides and the community, as well as having a distinct advantage in the unlikely event that someone tries to mug them or otherwise rough them up.  And there is nothing wrong with that.  And neither is this an admission that “we only train to defeat the untrained,” that little piece of nonsense that I am seeing bandied about lately.
> 
> By far, the majority of folks who train, meet this description.  Ive been open about my own disinterest in fighting, both in watching it and participating.  I feel no compulsion to justify it to anyone.  Honestly, it feels less paranoid and more realistic and honest about the training.
> 
> If you still find value in it, keep doing it.  What others think, those who want to cut it down, they don’t matter.



Most people at an MMA gym are afraid to fight also. And it's mostly about fear, if not all about fear. Saying they're not "interested", is just an excuse....like, "I have work tomorrow and can't get a black eye" or "I worry about CTE", etc. I've heard them all. Dudes are just scared to get punched in the face hard.

But the 5-10% who do fight, is what makes gym more exciting and drive in the memberships. Most of the fans that buy the tickets are the family, friends and gym mates of those who fights. Then afterward, everyone goes to a restaurant/bar and watch the UFC; where they can see what they train be put into practice at the highest level. You don't have this in WC nor TMA's. 
This is the main reason why WC and other TMA's are on the decline, you don't have representation for your style on the big stage. Google exposes everything nowadays & people aren't that easily impressed into signing memberships.  

And MMA isn't the main money maker neither, it's Sports BJJ. Because most of the pure BJJ people are afraid to get hit in the face also, but it's a style that anyone can train up to 100% intensity =>  a lot more competition than MMA => an even bigger community of people; especially for children. I'm lucky to get 10 kids in my Muay Thai class each day (15 would be a big class), while the BJJ is 25-35 on average, charging $150/mo for 3 classes/wk on a 1yr contract.


----------



## Steve (Sep 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Most people who train martial arts have no interest in fighting, meaning they have no interest in being a competition champion or fighting in the local bar every weekend.  Most reasonable folks would just like to get through life without engaging in violence.  They appreciate the exercise and the mental engagement that it provides and the community, as well as having a distinct advantage in the unlikely event that someone tries to mug them or otherwise rough them up.  And there is nothing wrong with that.  And neither is this an admission that “we only train to defeat the untrained,” that little piece of nonsense that I am seeing bandied about lately.
> 
> By far, the majority of folks who train, meet this description.  Ive been open about my own disinterest in fighting, both in watching it and participating.  I feel no compulsion to justify it to anyone.  Honestly, it feels less paranoid and more realistic and honest about the training.
> 
> If you still find value in it, keep doing it.  What others think, those who want to cut it down, they don’t matter.


I was with you until you started talking about "a distinct advantage" if someone tries to "rough them up."  At best, you can play the odds and bank on never needing to find out.  That, at least, is self aware.


----------



## Steve (Sep 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Unless it does.  Different strokes for different folks.


I train BJJ so that I can learn to fly.  I haven't flown yet, but I know that in the unlikely event I find myself falling off a cliff, I'll have a distinct advantage.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Most people at an MMA gym are afraid to fight also. And it's mostly about fear, if not all about fear. Saying they're not "interested", is just an excuse....like, "I have work tomorrow and can't get a black eye" or "I worry about CTE", etc. I've heard them all. Dudes are just scared to get punched in the face hard.


Well no, you are wrong at least in many cases.  For some, it could be fear.  For others, simple disinterest.  Being able to recognize subtlety and gray areas is important.

a little honesty in how you post can go a long way.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well no, you are wrong at least in many cases.  For some, it could be fear.  For others, simple disinterest.  Being able to recognize subtlety and gray areas is important.



Will they spar hard, up to knockout power?



Flying Crane said:


> a little honesty in how you post can go a long way.



What was dishonest?


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Will they spar hard, up to knockout power?


I dunno.  So do, some dont.  Sparring to knockout is like not very smart.  Leads to brain injury. 


jayoliver00 said:


> What was dishonest?


Your accusation that it is all about fear.  That was a calculated poke.


----------



## Callen (Sep 7, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Most people at an MMA gym are afraid to fight also.


Afraid to fight? Interesting, that might explain its popularity.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 8, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> And MMA isn't the main money maker neither, it's Sports BJJ. Because most of the pure BJJ people are afraid to get hit in the face also, but it's a style that anyone can train up to 100% intensity =>  a lot more competition than MMA => an even bigger community of people; especially for children. I'm lucky to get 10 kids in my Muay Thai class each day (15 would be a big class), while the BJJ is 25-35 on average, charging $150/mo for 3 classes/wk on a 1yr contract.



BJJ did a very good job of incorporating a surfer-like culture into the art, and part of its appeal is that it is very western culturally. You really don't have the level of rigidity that you find in other martial arts, and it's a much more open and laid back atmosphere. You call your teachers by their first names, you can wear bright and colorful training gear, you have a lot of silliness and goofing around, you have belts being tossed around based on skill instead of fees, etc. Thus, when you participate in BJJ you can also participate in the culture of the art. You combine effectiveness with a laid back, attractive culture, and yeah it's going to be popular and "cool".


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 8, 2021)

Callen said:


> Afraid to fight? Interesting, that might explain its popularity.



The amount of fighters that MMA gyms produces, still outnumber and outclass most TMA gyms by a great margin.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 8, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I dunno.  So do, some dont.  Sparring to knockout is like not very smart.  Leads to brain injury.
> 
> Your accusation that it is all about fear.  That was a calculated poke.



But I was right, and you just admitted it. You fear brain injuries, and that's just 1 of the fears.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 8, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> But I was right, and you just admitted it. You fear brain injuries, and that's just 1 of the fears.


Jeezuz.  No, I am smart enough to avoid brain injuries.  

how about this:  you tell yourself whatever you need to, to feel good about yourself.


----------



## geezer (Sep 8, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I dunno.  So do, some dont.  Sparring to knockout is like not very smart.  Leads to brain injury.
> 
> Your accusation that it is all about fear.  That was a calculated poke.





jayoliver00 said:


> But I was right, and you just admitted it. You* fear* brain injuries, and that's just 1 of the fears.


Yeah, you_ could_ look at it that way. I don't want to take hard shots either. I'm getting older. I turned 66 last month. I get injured a lot more easily than I used to, and it takes me a long time to heal and sometimes I don't heal right if at all. 

So, I get what Crane is saying. It's not the fear of somebody whose never been hit, or whose always been risk-averse and afraid of physicality. It's more like common sense. We all know what happens to boxers who hang in the game too long. It's not pretty.

So, maybe you call that "fear". I think of it more like "common sense". I'd _like_ to go as hard as I did 20 years ago, when I was forty-ish but frankly, that would be stupid!


----------



## geezer (Sep 8, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> ...how about this:  you tell yourself whatever you need to, to feel good about yourself.


Hey! That's exactly_ what I do!_


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 8, 2021)

geezer said:


> Yeah, you_ could_ look at it that way. I don't want to take hard shots either. I'm getting older. I turned 66 last month. I get injured a lot more easily than I used to, and it takes me a long time to heal and sometimes I don't heal right if at all.
> 
> So, I get what Crane is saying. It's not the fear of somebody whose never been hit, or whose always been risk-averse and afraid of physicality. It's more like common sense. We all know what happens to boxers who hang in the game too long. It's not pretty.
> 
> So, maybe you call that "fear". I think of it more like "common sense". I'd _like_ to go as hard as I did 20 years ago, when I was forty-ish but frankly, that would be stupid!



I'm glad that you agree it's fear; especially if didn't even spar hard when you were young. And by sparring hard, I mean full power to the head & body.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 8, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Jeezuz.  No, I am smart enough to avoid brain injuries.
> 
> how about this:  you tell yourself whatever you need to, to feel good about yourself.



I guess that's why it's called, Martial Arts; not Larping Arts. 

Don't feel bad, you just train at a lower level, that is all.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

I'll just say that part of the reason I stuck with BJJ and never returned to striking arts is because I'm getting older and old sports injuries are constantly flaring up (especially one of my knees).

I had a good buddy of mine in his 50s who wanted to relive his glory days and took up muay thai kickboxing. He was doing fine until he got the bright idea to do an amateur fight. He ended up shattering one of his shins, and severely hurting his ribs. He was on crutches for weeks. After he recovered, he never went back to the MT gym.

I'm not quite as old as that guy, but the idea of getting socked in the face isn't appealing to me. I can understand why some people avoid it, and I can understand why some people prefer martial arts where hard sparring and competition simply isn't present.

Obviously you have to train hard, but you have to train smart too, or you won't be training very long. I think I'm at the stage now where I just do the Jitz to stay in shape and maintain flexibility. I'm not trying to be the king of the mat, or tap out those young punks who come in off the street. These days, I let the kids take out the trash.


----------



## Poppity (Sep 9, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> I guess that's why it's called, Martial Arts; not Larping Arts.
> 
> Don't feel bad, you just train at a lower level, that is all.


Every time I see the word larping rolled out I am always curious as to what it means to the person who uses it. I (and I may be wrong) assume the person who uses it perceives the following meaning:
TMA: larping 
Bjj/MMA: not larping 
Bjj/MMA practitioner with no amateur or professional fight record: not larping 
Bjj/MMA practitioner who has not officially competed with people outside their own school: not larping 
Bjj/MMA practitioner who has never been in an engagement or fight outside their club: not larping 
Bjj/MMA practitioner who doesn't work in security or in an occupation involving the use of their skills: not larping.

If that's the case, it's a little bit difficult to not read it and chuckle at the irony.


----------



## geezer (Sep 9, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> I'm glad that you agree it's fear; especially if didn't even spar hard when you were young. And by sparring hard, I mean full power to the head & body.


Yeah. Different people fear different things. I was more afraid of getting hit _before_ I got hit some .... one time I remember seeing a flash and then trying to get up off the floor and thinking "that wasn't so bad". 

On the other hand, I really would not want to be in that position today. From what we know about the long term effects of brain injury, it's a risk I shouldn't take. 

Now you want to talk _FEAR _...irrational, mind-numbing fear? Think about this:


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 9, 2021)

geezer said:


> Yeah. Different people fear different things. I was more afraid of getting hit _before_ I got hit some .... one time I remember seeing a flash and then trying to get up off the floor and thinking "that wasn't so bad".
> 
> On the other hand, I really would not want to be in that position today. From what we know about the long term effects of brain injury, it's a risk I shouldn't take.



Which is what I said, you fear being hit in the head.  Whether you fear getting hit and/or fear the long term effects of brain injury, they're both types of fear.  And only you know which one is more prevalent.

And again, there are levels to this. Training w/o hard hits to the head, once in a while, is still at the lower levels.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I'll just say that part of the reason I stuck with BJJ and never returned to striking arts is because I'm getting older and old sports injuries are constantly flaring up (especially one of my knees).
> 
> I had a good buddy of mine in his 50s who wanted to relive his glory days and took up muay thai kickboxing. He was doing fine until he got the bright idea to do an amateur fight. He ended up shattering one of his shins, and severely hurting his ribs. He was on crutches for weeks. After he recovered, he never went back to the MT gym.
> 
> ...



I've been at the same MMA gym for over 15 consec. years, not missing a week (unless vacation)..... and have seen the most serious injuries come from BJJ.  I mean the worse KO I've seen was my friend who's a Fed, ex-mil, purple belt, etc. trying out MMA for his 1st fight...got KO'ed w/i 20 seconds of the 1st round....and couldn't remember if he was in a fight that we were training his *** for, for months, LOL.

Seen plenty of KD's and some KO's on the Muay Thai/Boxing side of the gym during training...lots of sprained ankles, black eyes, deep bruises, etc. Only twice for broken ribs, and once for a broken arm b/c the guy posted with his arm when he got swept; but that's it.  Nothing as bad in comparison to the BJJ side....with multiple knee surgeries, back surgeries, elbow surgeries, etc.   Had 2 serious BJJ competitors in their prime at the purple level being told by their MD's that they may risk never walking again if they F with this thing called BJJ some more; so these guys are probably doing Tai Chi somewhere with old folks while in their 30's. They wouldn't even risk playing soccer. Then there are multiple purples to BB's with back problems in their 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's.....including at least five 14-16 year olds with serious back injuries.

I'm at a level in striking that I rarely get hurt bad during hard sparring. But the few that can put a beating on me, I know when to give up and rest my head for a few weeks or months, then go again. It's just fun. I still train BJJ, but at a LOWER level than I do striking = I don't compete and don't often go 100%.  Nothing wrong with admitting to be at a lower level, but these other people get all huffy about it b/c it hurts their EGO. See how people lie when they say they don't have EGO....(and of course, I don't mean yourself).


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 9, 2021)

Snark said:


> Every time I see the word larping rolled out I am always curious as to what it means to the person who uses it. I (and I may be wrong) assume the person who uses it perceives the following meaning:
> TMA: larping
> Bjj/MMA: not larping
> Bjj/MMA practitioner with no amateur or professional fight record: not larping
> ...



Well you need to understand the context of what I meant first, before letting your EGO get the best of you and jumping to conclusions.

It's all about levels.  Nothing wrong with being scared. Everyone is scared of something that prevents them from training at the higher to highest levels. It's that people's EGO can't handle it when I point it out. You know that saying about leaving your "Ego at the door"?  Well most MA'ists are also hypocrites when it comes to this. I have ego, and I have no problem admitting such.


----------



## Poppity (Sep 10, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Well you need to understand the context of what I meant first, before letting your EGO get the best of you and jumping to conclusions.
> 
> It's all about levels.  Nothing wrong with being scared. Everyone is scared of something that prevents them from training at the higher to highest levels. It's that people's EGO can't handle it when I point it out. You know that saying about leaving your "Ego at the door"?  Well most MA'ists are also hypocrites when it comes to this. I have ego, and I have no problem admitting such.


Oh I see... Thanks for clearing that up /s.

Do two things for me then pal.

For sure you have an ego, there is plenty of dumb kids with giant egos i've knocked down at my boxing club and you sound like another one of them.

If you really train at a higher level and aren't just "larping" (your term, not mine) like every other amateur in ma 1) Link me to your tapology record. Let's see what your higher training shows.

I am pretty sure you don't even have a fight record.

2)  If I've assumed incorrectly take all the items on my list of a "non-larping" bjj/MMA guy and point out what you do and prove it. Easy.

Then you get an apology or maybe people just see what your full of. We'll see.


----------



## Poppity (Sep 10, 2021)

Anyone who thinks they are a badass because they practice the same martial art as a real athlete in the UFC, Bellator WEC, Cage warriors, or equally in boxing needs to stop deluding themselves... your not rockstar are a groupee doing a tribute act and it doesn't mean every other music is rubbish.

I've come to terms with that, have you?


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2021)

geezer said:


> Yeah. Different people fear different things. I was more afraid of getting hit _before_ I got hit some .... one time I remember seeing a flash and then trying to get up off the floor and thinking "that wasn't so bad".
> 
> On the other hand, I really would not want to be in that position today. From what we know about the long term effects of brain injury, it's a risk I shouldn't take.
> 
> Now you want to talk _FEAR _...irrational, mind-numbing fear? Think about this:



As an arachophobe, that wasn't cool.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2021)

Snark said:


> Every time I see the word larping rolled out I am always curious as to what it means to the person who uses it. I (and I may be wrong) assume the person who uses it perceives the following meaning:
> TMA: larping
> Bjj/MMA: not larping
> Bjj/MMA practitioner with no amateur or professional fight record: not larping
> ...



While I don't agree with everything the person you're responding to has been stating, I will say that a good portion of BJJ exponents can check off the majority of items on that list.

When I think of someone "larping", I think about the people walking around in Ninja or Samurai garb who believe that 16th century Japanese military tactics make them effective warriors. I gotta say, I don't see much of that in Wing Chun circles. WC folks tend to be a bit more grounded in reality, and I wouldn't consider them "larpers".


----------



## Poppity (Sep 10, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> While I don't agree with everything the person you're responding to has been stating, I will say that a good portion of BJJ exponents can check off the majority of items on that list.
> 
> When I think of someone "larping", I think about the people walking around in Ninja or Samurai garb who believe that 16th century Japanese military tactics make them effective warriors. I gotta say, I don't see much of that in Wing Chun circles. WC folks tend to be a bit more grounded in reality, and I wouldn't consider them "larpers".



that's cool.

tbh you may well be right that a good portion of BJJ exponents can check off the majority of those items, but then I don't have a problem with  bjj guys in general. 

What i'm interested in is just this guy, this guy who claims he trains at a higher level and is making insinuations about TCMAs being larpers.

I want to see evidence that he is the big deal he is claiming to be and the least he can do is direct me to his tapology record, so I can check with the team to make sure it's him.

He can always DM me if he's scared to publicly post it.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 10, 2021)

Snark said:


> Oh I see... Thanks for clearing that up /s.
> 
> Do two things for me then pal.
> 
> ...



Calm down toughguy, I train and fight as a hobbyist, not a profession; nor claimed such.  Why don't you show me your tapology record, and then maybe proof that you graduated high school since reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong suit?

And what's wrong with ego; you clearly have plenty of it; bragging about your big bad self was knocking down "dumb kids".  You're so scary, LOL.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 10, 2021)

Snark said:


> Anyone who thinks they are a badass because they practice the same martial art as a real athlete in the UFC, Bellator WEC, Cage warriors, or equally in boxing needs to stop deluding themselves... your not rockstar are a groupee doing a tribute act and it doesn't mean every other music is rubbish.
> 
> I've come to terms with that, have you?



You need to calm down and work on your reading comprehension skills. Getting all hysterical w/o even understanding what was conveyed.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 10, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> While I don't agree with everything the person you're responding to has been stating, I will say that a good portion of BJJ exponents can check off the majority of items on that list.
> 
> When I think of someone "larping", I think about the people walking around in Ninja or Samurai garb who believe that 16th century Japanese military tactics make them effective warriors. I gotta say, I don't see much of that in Wing Chun circles. WC folks tend to be a bit more grounded in reality, and I wouldn't consider them "larpers".


 
His problem is, he not too good a reading comprehension and/or he's getting all emotional & raging over the keyboard; thinking everyone's out to get him.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2021)

Yep, I'm walking away from this one...

..


----------



## Poppity (Sep 11, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> His problem is, he not too good a reading comprehension and/or he's getting all emotional & raging over the keyboard; thinking everyone's out to get him.




Lmfao. Sure..... You say you train at a higher level and act like your some sort of expert and professional. So I ask for your tapology record and your... "Eeewww noooo, show me yours, your hysterical, you don't read good. I'm not scared and playing a big man (despite me claiming all you guys were scared)...Whine"

I ask you to do two things pal and you don't even address them, and you claim my reading comprehension is bad.

your exactly what I thought you were.

Honestly though, thanks. I haven't laughed like this in a while.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 11, 2021)

Snark said:


> Lmfao. Sure..... You say you train at a higher level and act like your some sort of expert and professional. So I ask for your tapology record and your... "Eeewww noooo, show me yours, your hysterical, you don't read good. Whine"



Show me where I stated that "at a higher level" meant "some sort of expert and professional". 

You can't, can you? See? You're just getting all hysterical and it has clouded your brain.



Snark said:


> I ask you to do two things pal and you don't even address them, and you claim my reading comprehension is bad.
> 
> your exactly what I thought you were. Thanks for the laugh.



Now you're just crying because of your weak reading comprehension skills + you're being easily triggered into hysteria, causing you to not understand in context what I posted; just b/c I questioned your type of training being of "lower levels".


----------



## Poppity (Sep 11, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Show me where I stated that "at a higher level" meant "some sort of expert and professional".
> 
> You can't, can you? See? You're just getting all hysterical and it has clouded your brain.
> 
> ...


Lmao. Does your mum know you've gotten round the parental locks on her computer?


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 11, 2021)

Snark said:


> Lmao. Does your mum know you've gotten round the parental locks on her computer?



I was right, you can't answer can you.  I wonder who's being a little child?  Is your mommy proud of you?


----------



## Poppity (Sep 11, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> I guess that's why it's called, Martial Arts; not Larping Arts.
> 
> Don't feel bad, you just train at a lower level, that is all.



So I know your super smart and all, but you'll notice when you "questioned" people training at a lower level, you didn't use a question mark and kinda made a statement.

I guess that's big brains for you. Lol.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 11, 2021)

Snark said:


> So I know your super smart and all, but you'll notice when you "questioned" people training at a lower level, you didn't use a question mark and kinda made a statement.
> 
> I guess that's big brains for you. Lol.



You're getting hysterical again. Try taking a deep breath and calm down. Since you weren't taught to be calm & collected at home, or maybe it's ADD; I will help you.

All I said was that if you're afraid to train to fight, which would include hard sparring up to KO power, then you're training at the lower level. 

While training at the higher levels, doesn't automatically mean Pro Fighter and/or being on the UFC's roster. But in your hysterical state, you just thought that b/c I hurt you precious ego. So you went on a rage posting tirade, screaming bloody murder or something.

Understand now? You're welcome.


----------



## Poppity (Sep 11, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> You're getting hysterical again. Try taking a deep breath and calm down. Since you weren't taught to be calm & collected at home, or maybe it's ADD; I will help you.
> 
> All I said was that if you're afraid to train to fight, which would include hard sparring up to KO power, then you're training at the lower level.
> 
> ...



Yawn...looks like lotsa name calling.

I did  two things.
1. Made an assumption of what you meant by larping and admitted I could well be wrong.
2. Asked you to provide some sort of proof that you train at a higher level, which you are unable to do so you seem to be pointing lots at me and repeating that i'm hysterical. (Bit weird but whatever).

You know tapology also records lots of amateur fights and fighters (over 275,000) YouTube is full of competition fights there are websites with rankings of fighters boxers, MMA and bjj competitions. I asked to be pointed to one by you to prove your credentials as someone who trains at this higher level.... And I will check it.

...and you haven't, you just keep calling me hysterical.

I don't mean to assume stuff about you, but it's kinda hard not to now.

I am beginning to think you haven't had a competition fight in your life.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 11, 2021)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

The cheap shots and insults need to stop. Now. Return to discussing the topic at hand and keep it polite and professional.

Mark A Cochran
@Dirty Dog 
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 11, 2021)

Snark said:


> Yawn...looks like lotsa name calling.
> 
> I did  two things.
> 1. Made an assumption of what you meant by larping and admitted I could well be wrong.
> 2. Asked you to provide some sort of proof that you train at a higher level, which you are unable to do so you seem to be pointing lots at me and repeating that i'm hysterical. (But weird but whatever).



You asked for my Tapology, pro fight record b/c you got all hysterical and not understanding what I meant by a "higher level of training".

I even said that I wasn't a Pro Fighter, yet you kept on being hysterical with your rage postings.



Snark said:


> You know tapology also records lots of amateur fights and fighters (over 275,000) YouTube is full of competition fights there are websites with rankings of fighters boxers, MMA and bjj competitions. I asked to be pointed to one by you to prove your credentials as someone who trains at this higher level.... And I will check it.
> 
> ...and you haven't, you just keep calling me hysterical.
> 
> ...



I don't need to prove anything to you.  And rarely anybody had cameras back then, b/c mini-DV was abour $2000.  Just because you can't refuted what I said, again due to your getting all hysterical just b/c I said that you train at a lower level; so who's fault is that?

But I'm up for some friendly, hard sparring any time you're in the Washington DC area. Just let me know.


----------



## Poppity (Sep 11, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> You asked for my Tapology, pro fight record b/c you got all hysterical and not understanding what I meant by a "higher level of training".
> 
> I even said that I wasn't a Pro Fighter, yet you kept on being hysterical with your rage postings.
> 
> ...



Yeah i'm in the UK, quick check through my history would have told you that, so not surprised you put out an offer to spa.

read my post again, I didnt mention your "pro" record and as I wrote before tapology includes amateur fighters and their records.

Safe to assume If you had any record anywhere, you would have redirected me

So.... You describe training at a higher level but it's kinda clear you have no amateur record or competition fights recorded anywhere. 

Kinda what I thought.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 11, 2021)

Snark said:


> Yeah i'm in the UK, quick check through my history would have told you that, so not surprised you put out an offer to spa.



You're not much of a significance to me, so I couldn't care less.



Snark said:


> read my post again, I didnt mention your "pro" record and as I wrote before tapology includes amateur fighters and their records.



I don't even know how Tapology works when it didn't even existed when I fought. And who would make one for just amateur and smoker fights?




Snark said:


> Safe to assume If you had any record anywhere, you would have redirected me
> 
> So.... You describe training at a higher level but it's kinda clear you have no amateur record or competition fights recorded anywhere.
> 
> Kinda what I thought.



You don't even know how competition fights are conducted, esp. 20 years ago. At least you're calming down, just a little now.


----------



## Poppity (Sep 11, 2021)

Snark said:


> Yeah i'm in the UK, quick check through my history would have told you that, so not surprised you put out an offer to spa.
> 
> read my post again, I didnt mention your "pro" record and as I wrote before tapology includes amateur fighters and their records.
> 
> ...


Sorry needed to add "Grrrr!! ROOAARR!! Aaarrggghh!" To my "hysterical" "rage post"


----------



## Poppity (Sep 11, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> You're not much of a significance to me, so I couldn't care less.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man... History is not going to be kind to you with your posts here.

It was kinda clear you had no record from the start. Just wanted you to face up to it, pretty clear you never will.

Yeah... I'm done here.

Thanks, honestly I have had a good time. Lol.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 11, 2021)

Snark said:


> Man... History is not going to be kind to you with your posts here.
> 
> It was kinda clear you had no record from the start. Just wanted you to face up to it, pretty clear you never will.
> 
> ...



Now you're getting hysterical again when I just explained everything to you. And it doesn't look like you had a good time b/c most people just have a good time w/o having to state it; not just once, but twice.


----------



## Poppity (Sep 11, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Now you're getting hysterical again when I just explained everything to you. And it doesn't look like you had a good time b/c most people just have a good time w/o having to state it; not just once, but twice.



Omg. Your too cute.

Just be honest and admit there is no evidence whatsoever on the internet of you fighting in any competition ever.... Not an old uploaded VHS tape, an old certificate, an old forum mentioning the good old times nothing. 

Just you carving out a fictional history of how you used to be a bad ***.

Come on, just a little bit of honesty, I know you've got it in you... Just take this first little step. The rest of your brand new life awaits.


----------



## geezer (Sep 11, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> As an arachophobe, that wasn't cool.


Sorry mate. I have the same reaction, so I get you. I hate spiders. I also hate getting hit in the face ...but only 'cause it hurts.  Spiders are way worse.

Try this picture instead:


----------



## Cynik75 (Sep 11, 2021)

Kids...


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 11, 2021)

Snark said:


> Omg. Your too cute.
> 
> Just be honest and admit there is no evidence whatsoever on the internet of you fighting in any competition ever.... Not an old uploaded VHS tape, an old certificate, an old forum mentioning the good old times nothing.
> 
> ...



Hey, welcome back. That was a quick good bye and return. Not even 3 minutes, LOL.

What part about not many people owning video cameras 20 years ago did you not understand.  You are so sensitive just because I said that you train at a lower level. Just relax, it's okay.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 11, 2021)

geezer said:


> Sorry mate. I have the same reaction, so I get you. I hate spiders. I also hate getting hit in the face ...but only 'cause it hurts.  Spiders are way worse.
> 
> Try this picture instead:
> 
> ...


 
cats are evil.


----------



## geezer (Sep 11, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> I was right, you can't answer can you.  I wonder who's being a little child?  Is your mommy proud of you?





Snark said:


> Omg. Your too cute.
> 
> Just be honest and admit there is no evidence whatsoever on the internet of you fighting in any competition ever.... Not an old uploaded VHS tape, an old certificate, an old forum mentioning the good old times nothing.
> 
> ...


Jay and Snark, you two _do_ realize that by repeatedly insulting each other you effectively rule out any meaningful discussion. 

Maybe you guys think you are winning points with the rest of us who are reading along? I can't answer for others, but  personally I find your points far more persuasive when you take the high road. Take it for what it's worth.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 11, 2021)

Thread locked pending staff review.


----------

