# Kata Critique



## PhotonGuy (Oct 8, 2018)

So overall I think this kata looked quite good although it was mostly just a kata that used hand techniques, there wasn't much kicking involved although that's the kata not the person doing it. As for the person doing it, she does look quite good although she could put more hip and more power into her techniques.


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## DaveB (Oct 8, 2018)

I don't think Uechi ryu does hip.

I also don't believe in judging kata. Once you go down that road karate becomes dancing.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 8, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I also don't believe in judging kata. Once you go down that road karate becomes dancing.


I somewhat agree but the fact of the matter is that kata is judged and judging kata makes up a big part of Karate tournaments.


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## pdg (Oct 8, 2018)

@PhotonGuy - is that you doing the kata?

If not, it's not exactly fair for me (/us) to critique the performance as said performer isn't available for comment or discussion...


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## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> @PhotonGuy - is that you doing the kata?
> 
> If not, it's not exactly fair for me (/us) to critique the performance as said performer isn't available for comment or discussion...




This, absolutely.


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## JR 137 (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> @PhotonGuy - is that you doing the kata?
> 
> If not, it's not exactly fair for me (/us) to critique the performance as said performer isn't available for comment or discussion...


I don’t agree with that. The video’s publicly online, therefore subject to scrutiny. I’m not saying it’s ok to tear it apart, be disrespectful, etc. But by making it public, the poster should know it can be discussed publicly.


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## pdg (Oct 8, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’m not saying it’s ok to tear it apart



In my dictionaries, that's essentially what the word "critique" means...

Present and discuss, sure. But go through and pick flaws? Not so much.


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## JR 137 (Oct 8, 2018)

I think her performance is quite good. Definitely in line with what I’ve seen from Uechi Ryu practitioners. Uechi kata aren’t flashy at all; just simple and effective moves (if you know their application). I’ve been told there’s truly only one type of kick in Uechi, which is a front kick with the toes. Many dojos add roundhouse and a few other basic kicks, but I don’t think they’re part of the formal syllabus.

My only criticism of the kata is she should add a little more power to the techniques.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> In my dictionaries, that's essentially what the word "critique" means...
> 
> Present and discuss, sure. But go through and pick flaws? Not so much.


Alright than I used the wrong word. I should've said discuss it not critique it. In terms of discussing the kata Im basically saying what JR 137 said in post #6


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## Headhunter (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> @PhotonGuy - is that you doing the kata?
> 
> If not, it's not exactly fair for me (/us) to critique the performance as said performer isn't available for comment or discussion...


When you put something online you want people to see it so they should realise criticism is a big part of that


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## JR 137 (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> In my dictionaries, that's essentially what the word "critique" means...
> 
> Present and discuss, sure. But go through and pick flaws? Not so much.


Maybe semantics here. By “tear apart” I mean basically trashing it and the practitioner.

I don’t see anything wrong with respectfully pointing out flaws. I don’t like seeing/reading all the negative/nasty stuff like you see the people doing on YouTube, but at the same time if you’re putting yourself out there on that medium, you’ve got to expect it and not let it get to you. It sucks that that’s the way it is, but it is what it is. If you’re putting yourself out there to the public, then you’ve got to deal with the public. It’s like free speech - everyone wants to say what they want, yet very few want to hear what anyone else is saying.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 8, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I don't think Uechi ryu does hip.


No matter how good that you can do your form, if your form doesn't have "body method" and only have the arms movement, you still cannot express your "body method".

What is "body method"? You can only see the body move and you don't see the arms move. Can you do your form by putting your arms behind your back and just let your body to do your form?

If we use "body method" to judge MA styles, many MA style will fail to that standard. Not every MA styles design their form with "body method" in mind.

Example of "body method".


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 8, 2018)

since im a Uechi guy ill give my thoughts.
Uechi kata does not do well in competition.   the form done is Sanseru, its a Chinese form and Chinese forms are done with a different feel then that of Japanese kata.  the judging of karate kata is done on a Japanese standard, especially since this was filmed at a Japanese competition.  her performance is very typical of many dojo.  during her interview she mentions she trained with Kiyohide Shinjo.  he is a top master and the Uechi guy all over Youtube breaking stuff with his fingers and toes.  he is very into precision.   when Renee performs her kata it is somewhat robotic (often critiqued in Uechi as robot ryu)  this is a consequence of trying to change the natural feel of the kata in order to have a more Japanese feel.  in Uechi ryu some do it like this and some dont.   i personally do not subscribe to this type of performance.
the original feel of the form would be like this clip, granted its a different form but it would be the same feel and cadence.





now this is the Japanese standard for kata





i really love Rika...i mean Rika's kata.....
but there is a big difference in how forms are done between Chinese and Japanese styles.

that being said,  looking at it from a Uechi standard..  it is very technically correct.  it is lacking in flow and it does not have the power seen typically in Uechi kata.  the comment was made on hips and @DaveB  is correct Uechi does not use exaggerated hip rotations the way many styles do.  the hip tucks and rolls under the butt instead.  i would also liked to have seen more dynamics in tempo.  some actions could have been done slower in order to put emphisis on other actions, bit over all it is a very good kata.


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## DaveB (Oct 8, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> No matter how good that you can do your form, if your form doesn't have "body method" and only have the arms movement, you still cannot express your "body method".
> 
> What is "body method"? You can only see the body move and you don't see the arms move. Can you do your form by putting your arms behind your back and just let your body to do your form?
> 
> ...


The southern kung fu from that region that birthed Uechi ryu tend to base their power on the waist, not the hips.


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## Steve (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> @PhotonGuy - is that you doing the kata?
> 
> If not, it's not exactly fair for me (/us) to critique the performance as said performer isn't available for comment or discussion...


I don't understand this.  How does fairness play into it?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 8, 2018)

DaveB said:


> The southern kung fu from that region that birthed Uechi ryu tend to base their power on the waist, not the hips.


The Uechi ryu doesn't have

- body rotation,
- body folding.

By using Uechi ryu form,. it's very difficult to express what your body can do. So if you try to judge someone's form by "body method", you may not be able to find it.


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## dvcochran (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> In my dictionaries, that's essentially what the word "critique" means...
> 
> Present and discuss, sure. But go through and pick flaws? Not so much.


If there are flaws, they are fundamental problems and should be critiqued. All part of the natural progression of MA.


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## DaveB (Oct 9, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> If there are flaws, they are fundamental problems and should be critiqued. All part of the natural progression of MA.


What was your disagreement with my post?


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## dvcochran (Oct 9, 2018)

DaveB said:


> What was your disagreement with my post?


Competing or displaying Kata is a quality way to expand the value of doing forms. It allows personal interpretation while adhering to the original confines of the pattern. Being judged or critiqued adds a mental and maturation component that has great value in personal growth. It is a great way to cultivate experience outside your own dojo/dojang and create comradery with other people in the MA family. Plus, it is just fun.


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## JR 137 (Oct 9, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Competing or displaying Kata is a quality way to expand the value of doing forms. It allows personal interpretation while adhering to the original confines of the pattern. Being judged or critiqued adds a mental and maturation component that has great value in personal growth. It is a great way to cultivate experience outside your own dojo/dojang and create comradery with other people in the MA family. Plus, it is just fun.


And just because you compete in kata doesn’t mean that’s the only thing you do with it.


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## JR 137 (Oct 9, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I don't think Uechi ryu does hip.
> 
> I also don't believe in judging kata. Once you go down that road karate becomes dancing.


Just because someone does it in a tournament doesn’t mean that’s the only thing they do with it or that’s the only way it’s used.

I’ve done kata in tournaments. I do it because I like competing, I like the preparation for the tournament more than the tournament itself, and it’s a great way to break up the monotony of training the same way all the time.

It’s fun. It’s a great change. I wouldn’t do it year-round though. There’s a karate school near my house who does all point sparring and kata solely for competition. They don’t do much of anything else. Obviously I haven’t joined that school. But that doesn’t mean I can’t do what they do for a few weeks a year. That’s not going to be detrimental to my overall training. In fact, I’ve found it helps quite a bit. When you’ve got a competition deadline coming up, you address your weaknesses with a greater sense of urgency. When you don’t, it’s easy to put them off.


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## Buka (Oct 9, 2018)

I thought Renee (the first woman shown) did a fine job on that Kata. 

But the second woman, Rika? That Kata was the balls. Wow.

I like Uechi.


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## punisher73 (Oct 9, 2018)

For comparison.  This is Toyama Sensei, one of Kanbun's original students and kept the kata the way he learned them from Kanbun.  He did not alter them to Kanei's method, so it retains mroe of the original chinese flavor to them.

One of the things you will notice in his execution is that many stances are "drops in place" as opposed to stepping forward into the movement.  With his gi top off, he is also showing many of the internal muscular changes that were a part of the kata that can't really be seen.


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## DaveB (Oct 9, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Competing or displaying Kata is a quality way to expand the value of doing forms. It allows personal interpretation while adhering to the original confines of the pattern. Being judged or critiqued adds a mental and maturation component that has great value in personal growth. It is a great way to cultivate experience outside your own dojo/dojang and create comradery with other people in the MA family. Plus, it is just fun.



I'm sure all of the above is true.

But in taking a training tool and judging it's execution on arbitrary standards like aesthetics or how close you many veins you can make bulge out of your neck, we are inventing a whole element to the practice that not only detracts from the purpose of kata but actively confuses it.

Try and imagine a world where boxing tournaments included artistic speed ball drilling.

Tournament kata is time spent mastering non martial skills and it is ingraining incorrect performance of kata. Sure on an individual level obsess all you want over performance but my issue is the cultural impact that aesthetic kata performance has had on the art.

There are plenty of dance schools. If that's what you enjoy why go to a karate club to find it?


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2018)

So far I have seen only one poster qualified to judge the kata as he's from the same style. How can people who don't do that style judge something they don't know?
I do Wado Ryu, a Japanese style and I would disagree with the generalisation though about the way Japanese katas are done, I've found that each style has it's own way of doing them.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 9, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I'm sure all of the above is true.
> 
> But in taking a training tool and judging it's execution on arbitrary standards like aesthetics or how close you many veins you can make bulge out of your neck, we are inventing a whole element to the practice that not only detracts from the purpose of kata but actively confuses it.
> 
> ...


I tend to agree.  Kata were originally a training tool meant to help develop your skill.  It was never meant to be put on display or turned into performance art. The only people who were ever meant to see your kata are your teacher, your classmates, and your students.  It is not so much for the sake of secrecty (although that has been used as a reason), but rather outside of those people, other people would have no context for it to have meaning. 

It’s a bit like going to look at a house that you want to buy, and asking the builder to show you his tool set.  The house is what matters, not what tools he used to build it.


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## JR 137 (Oct 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> So far I have seen only one poster qualified to judge the kata as he's from the same style. How can people who don't do that style judge something they don't know?
> I do Wado Ryu, a Japanese style and I would disagree with the generalisation though about the way Japanese katas are done, I've found that each style has it's own way of doing them.


Actually, I think Uechi Ryu kata were just recently accepted into WKF competition. I think they were added to the accepted kata list right around the time they got the Olympic nod. They added a few others from other styles, such as the Mas Oyama created kata Garyu. 

There’s a lot of crossover between styles. Stances, timing, focus, etc. I’m sure the highest level judges are being taught what to look for with the new kata list.

As far as lower level competition, they typically try to get judges from many styles involved. And if I’m a judge and have never seen Uechi Ryu kata, after some time I’d catch on and know what to expect. Sure there’s an unfair to the competitor learning curve, but it is what it is.


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## pdg (Oct 9, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> It’s a bit like going to look at a house that you want to buy, and asking the builder to show you his tool set. The house is what matters, not what tools he used to build it.



Not so sure that's a great analogy - for me at least.

If someone has nasty tools that don't get looked after there's a very high chance that slipshod attitude will show in the quality of their work...

They don't need to be the best tools, but how they're used and cared for speaks volumes.


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## Buka (Oct 9, 2018)

I agree to a certain extent. However, I tend to look at the shape a practioner is in in striking arts. It’s always blown my mind when I see a Martial Artist, at least a serious Martial Artist, especially a long term Martial Artist, who is in poor shape physically. I’m not speaking of poor health due to disease or injuries, I just mean being out of shape.

How the hell do you get out of shape training Martial Arts? 

And I tell you what, if we’re training, or sparring, or competing against each other, or we’re fighting for real...if you come in out of shape, your ash is mine, fellas.

And, Toyama Sensie, the older man doing that Kata? That’s a guy I want to train with.


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## punisher73 (Oct 9, 2018)

Buka said:


> I agree to a certain extent. However, I tend to look at the shape a practioner is in in striking arts. It’s always blown my mind when I see a Martial Artist, at least a serious Martial Artist, especially a long term Martial Artist, who is in poor shape physically. I’m not speaking of poor health due to disease or injuries, I just mean being out of shape.
> 
> How the hell do you get out of shape training Martial Arts?
> 
> ...



Agreed, look into Shinyu Gushi as well, both Uechi stylists.  Unfortunately, both have passed away.


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## JR 137 (Oct 9, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> Agreed, look into Shinyu Gushi as well, both Uechi stylists.  Unfortunately, both have passed away.


I was just going to mention Gushi. I never got tired of watching his stuff. I was going to post a video of him doing some kata, but the Toyama video was already posted.

What the hell. Gushi doing Sanseiru (I believe the kata that was done in the OP video...





And Gushi doing Sanchin...


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## Flying Crane (Oct 9, 2018)

pdg said:


> Not so sure that's a great analogy - for me at least.
> 
> If someone has nasty tools that don't get looked after there's a very high chance that slipshod attitude will show in the quality of their work...
> 
> They don't need to be the best tools, but how they're used and cared for speaks volumes.


Sure, but nobody asks to see the builders tools when they go look at a house.  The builder does not advertise a new house for sale by showing his tools or listing the brand name of his tools.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> So far I have seen only one poster qualified to judge the kata as he's from the same style. How can people who don't do that style judge something they don't know?
> I do Wado Ryu, a Japanese style and I would disagree with the generalisation though about the way Japanese katas are done, I've found that each style has it's own way of doing them.


Which is a big part of what can go wrong in kata competition.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 9, 2018)

Kata, for me, is the soul of karate.  It is the quest for perfection in movement.  Doing kata exposes weaknesses in technique and gives a student the opportunity to focus their training to improve that aspect.   Participating in kata during a tournament setting also gives a student the opportunity to see how they stack up against their peers.  

That being said, in able to judge kata, you need to understand what the 'perfect' elements of the kata are to judge it accordingly, imho.   Does that mean you cannot judge a kata you are unfamiliar with ?  No, you should be able to see the depth in training that has gone into the performance and judge it according to your own criteria and experience of what constitutes a perfect kata but without understanding the frame of reference, your score may differ from someone who practices that kata regularly and knows exactly what is required to do the kata perfectly.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Which is a big part of what can go wrong in kata competition.




I've only ever done kata in Wado Ryu competitions, along with kumite ( supposedly those were semi contact but were always full lol) I've never judged anyone else's style either. How would I even know if they were doing the correct techniques for that style? Nope, stick to our own says I.
I assume mixed style comps are popular in the US, not heard of many here.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I've only ever done kata in Wado Ryu competitions, along with kumite ( supposedly those were semi contact but were always full lol) I've never judged anyone else's style either. How would I even know if they were doing the correct techniques for that style? Nope, stick to our own says I.
> I assume mixed style comps are popular in the US, not heard of many here.


Very common over here.  And not just different karate methods, but Japanese judging Korean judging Chinese methods, etc., I think it’s a problem, just does not work well.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 9, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> but Japanese judging Korean judging Chinese methods, etc., I think it’s a problem, just does not work well.


If you own a car that has square wheels and rotate as 1, 2, 3, 4, and 1, 2, 3, 4, it will be difficult for you to appreciate a car with circular wheels that rotate smoothly.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I've only ever done kata in Wado Ryu competitions, along with kumite ( supposedly those were semi contact but were always full lol) I've never judged anyone else's style either. How would I even know if they were doing the correct techniques for that style? Nope, stick to our own says I.
> I assume mixed style comps are popular in the US, not heard of many here.



your post is kind of what i was getting at.  the op clip of Renee was an open Japanese competition, (from what i could tell).  judging a kata in Japan is going to be different than a pure Uechi gathering, say in the US.  the judges are looking for things more common in the styles they are familiar with.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> your post is kind of what i was getting at.  the op clip of Renee was an open Japanese competition, (from what i could tell).  judging a kata in Japan is going to be different than a pure Uechi gathering, say in the US.  the judges are looking for things more common in the styles they are familiar with.




The Japanese styles I know of are different so even judging them would be more difficult than judging your own.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 9, 2018)

I thought she did a good job. But I'm not sure of the particular characteristics of Uechi Ryu so yep, hard to judge. Very different style of kata to perform in a tournament!



Buka said:


> I thought Renee (the first woman shown) did a fine job on that Kata.
> 
> But the second woman, Rika? That Kata was the balls. Wow.
> 
> I like Uechi.



Yep, Rika is incredible...


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## _Simon_ (Oct 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> So far I have seen only one poster qualified to judge the kata as he's from the same style. How can people who don't do that style judge something they don't know?
> I do Wado Ryu, a Japanese style and I would disagree with the generalisation though about the way Japanese katas are done, I've found that each style has it's own way of doing them.



Yeah that's the thing... it's so hard to make comment on a kata from a different style, as we often don't have much of an idea of their training methods day-to-day in the dojo, and what they're trying to achieve specifically, so body mechanics and stances may be completely different...

Of course there are commonalities within karate styles but still alot of differences..

I compete in an all styles tournament, and watching the Chinese forms people do I always wonder... how do the judges even begin to score these types of forms compared with karate... I'd have no clue what they'd look for if they weren't familiar with the style, its vastly different!



JR 137 said:


> They added a few others from other styles, such as the Mas Oyama created kata Garyu.



Wow really? Fancy that!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I've never judged anyone else's style either. How would I even know if they were doing the correct techniques for that style?


You may not be able to just the correct technique, but you can always judge the correct body movement. It doesn't matter which style that you may train, there are some general guideline that all MA styles have to follow, such as:

- All body parts start to move at the same time, and also all body parts stop at the same time.
- Your eyes will focus on your major hand.
- ...

It's always wrong when you

- step in and punch, if your legs stop moving but your arm is still moving.
- punch to the north but your eyes are looking toward the west (or east).
- ...


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## dvcochran (Oct 9, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I'm sure all of the above is true.
> 
> But in taking a training tool and judging it's execution on arbitrary standards like aesthetics or how close you many veins you can make bulge out of your neck, we are inventing a whole element to the practice that not only detracts from the purpose of kata but actively confuses it.
> 
> ...



That is one of the more ridiculous comparisons I have heard.  Sure there are a lot of bad tournament forms and approaches out there just like there are a plethora of "culturally correct" forms being taught that are no where close. Maybe you lost at your first tournament and never got over it? The best component about tournament forms is the competition with yourself. Not everyone can get there however.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 9, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> I compete in an all styles tournament, and watching the Chinese forms people do I always wonder... how do the judges even begin to score these types of forms compared with karate... I'd have no clue what they'd look for if they weren't familiar with the style, its vastly different!


This guy won the 1st place form competition in the 1974 Dallas Karate tournament (I filmed this myself).

Apparently even by using Karate or TKD standard, his Chinese form was considered to be good.


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## JR 137 (Oct 9, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah that's the thing... it's so hard to make comment on a kata from a different style, as we often don't have much of an idea of their training methods day-to-day in the dojo, and what they're trying to achieve specifically, so body mechanics and stances may be completely different...
> 
> Of course there are commonalities within karate styles but still alot of differences..
> 
> ...


Garyu and Useishi* from Kyokushin are allowed. Also most of the Uechi Ryu specific kata such as Kanchin, Kanshu, etc. None of these were previously allowed. Possibly done to appease the IOC, as it used to be Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Shito Ryu, and Wado Ryu kata only. 

*Useishi is a Mas Oyama heavily modified Gojushiho. Some Kyokushin offshoots do it too, a few calling it Koryugojushiho (Seido and Oyama karate come to mind under that name). Useishi wasn’t allowed previously.

Complete kata list on page 28:
https://www.wkf.net/pdf/WKFCompetitionRules2017.pdf


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## DaveB (Oct 10, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Kata, for me, is the soul of karate.  It is the quest for perfection in movement.  Doing kata exposes weaknesses in technique and gives a student the opportunity to focus their training to improve that aspect.   Participating in kata during a tournament setting also gives a student the opportunity to see how they stack up against their peers.
> 
> That being said, in able to judge kata, you need to understand what the 'perfect' elements of the kata are to judge it accordingly, imho.   Does that mean you cannot judge a kata you are unfamiliar with ?  No, you should be able to see the depth in training that has gone into the performance and judge it according to your own criteria and experience of what constitutes a perfect kata but without understanding the frame of reference, your score may differ from someone who practices that kata regularly and knows exactly what is required to do the kata perfectly.



See, this is exactly what I was talking about. 

Perfection of movement is one way to describe kata, but what perfection is will change with every form nevermind which style it is.

The first form you learn in Shotokan has two techniques, low block and punch. Yet in that form is a set rhythm for executing 3 stepping punches. It's the most commonly missed part of that form. How can someone unfamiliar judge it?

More importantly though if you are using the form correctly as a training tool, your rhythm and connectivity of the two techniques can vary all across the form, depending on what applications you are practising. 
In which case, how can you judge the form?  How do you apply a standard where the nature of the tool is that the standards change depending upon your understanding and focus?

The idea that kata performance is something that can be judged is precisely the cultural problem I was describing. The idea that you can compare yourself to others based on nonsensical ideas about how forms look totally defeats the purpose of training martial arts. 

If you want to know how you compare with your peers, fight them.
The fight is where you judge technique. Not the form.


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## DaveB (Oct 10, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> That is one of the more ridiculous comparisons I have heard.  Sure there are a lot of bad tournament forms and approaches out there just like there are a plethora of "culturally correct" forms being taught that are no where close. Maybe you lost at your first tournament and never got over it? The best component about tournament forms is the competition with yourself. Not everyone can get there however.



Wow, that went personal faster than I expected.

I came second at my first kata tournament, never bothered with it after that as I couldn't understand how I could be judged by people from other styles or vice versa.

Anyway, I came to this view many many years later when I realised how much time we spent learning to get kata "right", without knowing what the movements are for. 

I realised that mastery of a form with set performance criteria severely limited the usefulness of a training tool that everyone was waffling about having near infinite combat applications. 

I realised that there was no difference between the judging of a form and the judging of a dance since neither showed any combative understanding.

I realised that no boxer has a trophy for excellent shadow boxing, and that nobody goes to the ballet to watch the dancers stretch.

I realised that all the time we (karateka) focus on aesthetics we deserve the reputation for having ineffective martial arts training and that we limit our own effectiveness by misusing the tools we have been given. 

So yeah, maybe my silver medal was too great a blow to my massive ego and I now must ruin kata comp for everyone, or maybe I just thought about it critically for a minute. You decide.


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may not be able to just the correct technique, but you can always judge the correct body movement.




I disagree, I'm from Wado Ryu I can't judge CMA forms as I simply don't know their correct 'body movement' and I'd suggest it would be the other way around as well.




Kung Fu Wang said:


> - All body parts start to move at the same time, and also all body parts stop at the same time.
> - Your eyes will focus on your major hand.
> - ...
> 
> ...



So basically when judging a kata/form from another style this is all you have to go on and if they 'perform'  your specifics the kata is good. The rest might be rubbish but as long as they do this it's fine?


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 10, 2018)

If I may, I would suggest that 'judging katas' in a tournament setting will produce more consistent scores if the judges themselves have:

1)  A good level of experience.
2)  Know the levels of the art form being judged and what the standard should be applied.
3)  Accept guidance instructions from the head judge.  

Not being in the same art form may not give the judge a complete understanding of all the subtleties of the kata but a strong stance is still a strong stance, balance between transitions still shows a higher degree of body control, coordination of movements still shows the level of practice by the individual, the overall appearance of the kata compared to other katas seen previously (historical) can also play a factor.   The head judge will also (hopefully) give an indication of the level of kata to be performed by the participant to the judges to help guide them with a starting score.  For example, if I received instructions that the next participant would be performing 'X' mid level kata and is a mid level student, I would use a mid level starting score and apply deductions based on criteria from my own experiences.   Would my score be as accurate as a similar judge from the same style who trained in the art ?  Maybe not but I like to think that I wouldn't be in left field either.  

If the student wanted their form to be judged by instructors of the same art, they may need to enter a tournament given solely by that art.   However, often times, these types of tournament opportunities are not available without travelling great distances.  So why compete in a tournament that has judges from other styles participating ?  Tournaments are a test of the student's skills compared to those of his peer group.  A wider peer group gives a better indication of the 'truth' of their training from an independent eye.  

However, as in all things, the results of the 'test' should be taken with the understanding of the conditions that the test was applied.  Thus, if you are doing a CMA and you enter in a karate kata tournament and win, hopefully it will give you an indication that your training is on track.   If you lose, hopefully you will go back to your training hall and discuss it with your Sifu to see where improvements can be made.   If your Sifu doesn't agree with the results perhaps you have to look at attending tournaments where your art is more understood.  

My two cents


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> a strong stance is still a strong stance




How would I know as a karateka what a strong stance is in CMA? How would non Wado Ryu people view our stances not knowing them? 



Yokazuna514 said:


> coordination of movements still shows the level of practice by the individual,




If it's a kata/form I don't know how would I know the transitions are being made to the correct movements? We have a kata that has many elements of other katas in and the times I've seen the competitor mistakenly go off into another kata.



Yokazuna514 said:


> the overall appearance of the kata compared to other katas seen previously (historical) can also play a factor.



We have a range of katas that are unlike each other so watching one would not lead you to assume that all should be done the same way. There's a big difference between Pinan Shodan and Seishan for us.




Yokazuna514 said:


> Thus, if you are doing a CMA and you enter in a karate kata tournament and win, hopefully it will give you an indication that your training is on track.



I'm sorry but I don't follow that. How can you win a karate kata competition with a CMA form, how would karateka be able to judge it? ( and vice versa)


----------



## ShotoNoob (Oct 10, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I think her performance is quite good. Definitely in line with what I’ve seen from Uechi Ryu practitioners. Uechi kata aren’t flashy at all; just simple and effective moves (if you know their application). I’ve been told there’s truly only one type of kick in Uechi, which is a front kick with the toes. Many dojos add roundhouse and a few other basic kicks, but I don’t think they’re part of the formal syllabus.
> 
> My only criticism of the kata is she should add a little more power to the techniques.



I liked it just from the opening... and by her comportment.  Haven' watched the whole thing through.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Oct 10, 2018)

Ok, you have obviously taken exception to a few things I have said.  I am fine with that.  I think it is pointless for us to go back and forth trying to prove our points.  I can respect that that you may not agree and believe in the opposite view.

I will say given a situation where I am ask to judge a kata from another style, I will use my experience and common sense to provide a score.  Will it be exactly the same score as a judge from the same style as the student performing, maybe not.  However, I can take the opportunity after to ask the judge why they scored the kata they way they did so I can do a better job the next time I am faced with a similar situation.  In judging as well as in kata, we strive for perfection even though we know we may never get there.   Most judges are doing the best that they can but that doesn't mean that they always get it perfect.   There is always more to learn even when we are asked to judge others.

As a participant, you are presenting yourself to be judged by the people that have been entrusted to do so.  If you do not feel you are going to be judged accordingly you have the option to not perform.  It's up to you to do with what you will given the opportunity.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Oct 10, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> No matter how good that you can do your form, if your form doesn't have "body method" and only have the arms movement, you still cannot express your "body method".
> 
> What is "body method"? You can only see the body move and you don't see the arms move. Can you do your form by putting your arms behind your back and just let your body to do your form?
> 
> ...



Never head karate body mechanics referred to like that before.  Is this term something you personally coined?


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 10, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Wow, that went personal faster than I expected.
> 
> ****It went personal by your damning and narrow opinion. For those who understand, appreciate and desire competition a greater identification of what forms can be and be used for is found. The premise that there is a narrow, mystic purpose to forms and only one way is the right way is old school, outdated, and absurd to the thinking person.
> *
> ...


----------



## ShotoNoob (Oct 10, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I'm sure all of the above is true.
> 
> But in taking a training tool and judging it's execution on arbitrary standards like aesthetics or how close you many veins you can make bulge out of your neck, we are inventing a whole element to the practice that not only detracts from the purpose of kata but actively confuses it.


All judging is subjective.  Arbitrary would imply incompetence on the part of those judging.



> Try and imagine a world where boxing tournaments included artistic speed ball drilling.



Kinda extreme analogy wise?



> Tournament kata is time spent mastering non martial skills and it is ingraining incorrect performance of kata. Sure on an individual level obsess all you want over performance but my issue is the cultural impact that aesthetic kata performance has had on the art..



I can agree that kata competition has some issues in principle.  I think it going too far to ban kata competition.  Why not showcase karateka undertaking their skills at engaging in what one member referred to as the "soul of karate."  There is such a martial art contingent out there that disputes the legitimacy of kata as a martial art practice.



> There are plenty of dance schools. If that's what you enjoy why go to a karate club to find it?


Thank you Rob Redmond.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 10, 2018)

DaveB said:


> See, this is exactly what I was talking about.
> 
> Perfection of movement is one way to describe kata, but what perfection is will change with every form nevermind which style it is.
> 
> ...


Man, you live in contradiction. If you want to live completely in the past, why do you even offer your opinion?


----------



## ShotoNoob (Oct 10, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Very common over here.  And not just different karate methods, but Japanese judging Korean judging Chinese methods, etc., I think it’s a problem, just does not work well.



Judging a kata by the style you train or have accomplishment in makes much sense.  OTOH, I don't have to be an expert to present an informed opinion about the OP's kata illustration.  Understanding kata conceptually, understanding traditional karate or traditional martial arts overall puts me in the position to express an evaluation having potential merit.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Ok, you have obviously taken exception to a few things I have said




I haven't taken 'exception' to your comments, I simply don't understand quite frankly how a karateka can competently and fairly judge a CMA form and vice versa. I find the idea of mixed style karate/form competition to be frankly quite strange. I have only ever competed in and judged my own style as do most martial artists I know. I believe there are mixed style comps here but they are like hen's teeth, rare.


----------



## punisher73 (Oct 10, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I haven't taken 'exception' to your comments, I simply don't understand quite frankly how a karateka can competently and fairly judge a CMA form and vice versa. I find the idea of mixed style karate/form competition to be frankly quite strange. I have only ever competed in and judged my own style as do most martial artists I know. I believe there are mixed style comps here but they are like hen's teeth, rare.



This I believe is a perfect post to show the two sides I see being talked about.

1) Your style is YOUR style, and only people from that style will really know what to be looking for.  Power generation is done differently, certain aspects of kata may be done slowly or with purposeful tension to highlight or illustrate a series of moves.  Only someone well versed will know that.

2) In an open competition, you will be judged on the aesthetic and athletic performance of your kata based on criteria different than a single style looking at their own style.  Why?  Because they need a standard starting point and need all of the katas to be the same sort of execution to judge fairly.  This moves the kata more into the realm of performance martial art and highlights the "art' of all our forms.

For example, I know of some stylists who perform their kata one way for their execution and practice, but will highlight how they will change and alter the moves to perform in an open competition.  Things like, high kicks when the kick in the kata is groin or lower, dramatic pauses or rhythm changes to make it more dramatic.  You can score very poorly if you were to perform the performance kata in a competition judged by your own peers because it isn't a good kata, yet you can score very highly in an open format with that same kata because of the criteria or vice versa, score poorly on a well executed but "boring" kata in an open format because it doesn't have the dramatic elements put in.

I don't compete, I can appreciate the talent and dedication and in many cases the athleticism it goes into training competition kata though.  

BUT, how can you judge a Rembrandt versus a Monet versus a Picasso on how well they painted a tree?  Each one is beautiful within the methods of their expression.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Oct 10, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I haven't taken 'exception' to your comments, I simply don't understand quite frankly how a karateka can competently and fairly judge a CMA form and vice versa. I find the idea of mixed style karate/form competition to be frankly quite strange. I have only ever competed in and judged my own style as do most martial artists I know. I believe there are mixed style comps here but they are like hen's teeth, rare.


Fair enough and you are fortunate to have a good concentration of schools in a reasonable geographic area that can provide you with the feedback on your particular style. 

Where I am, we have a good number of Kyokushin schools nearby so our students do not have to travel far to get a tournament experience.   We have seen a few CMA schools come out to participate and we hope they feel that the experience was worthwhile to their training.   If not, I suppose they wouldn't come back.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 10, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Judging a kata by the style you train or have accomplishment in makes much sense.  OTOH, I don't have to be an expert to present an informed opinion about the OP's kata illustration.  Understanding kata conceptually, understanding traditional karate or traditional martial arts overall puts me in the position to express an evaluation having potential merit.


Maybe.  And it depends.

You can always have an opinion.  It might not be worth much.  Having experience with something else may not make your opinion worth much.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 10, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> So basically when judging a kata/form from another style this is all you have to go on and if they 'perform'  your specifics the kata is good. The rest might be rubbish but as long as they do this it's fine?


There are more in that list such as:

- 6 harmony,
- speed,
- balance,
- power,
- concentration,
- art,
- ...

The art part can also be interested. When you throw 3 punches, you can throw:

- fast, fast, fast.
- fast, slow, fast,
- slow, fast, fast,
- ...

It's like the drum beats - art.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 10, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Never head karate body mechanics referred to like that before.  Is this term something you personally coined?


It's a Chinese term "Shenfa - body method (or body language)". It means how well that you can use your body to explain what you intend to do. For example, you can train a sword form without using a sword.


----------



## pgsmith (Oct 10, 2018)

Constantly amazed by so many people's insistence that their way and their knowledge is the only _correct_ way and knowledge.  

  How did that old saying about cups go ....


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 10, 2018)

I’ve come to believe there is no such thing as doing kata well.  
Kata is practice and training.  Kata is simply to be done again.  And again.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 10, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> Constantly amazed by so many people's insistence that their way and their knowledge is the only _correct_ way and knowledge.
> 
> How did that old saying about cups go ....


It's not "You are wrong and I'm right." It's "You look at it from the Japanese point of view, and I look at it from the Chinese point of view."

When you throw 3 punches, you may like to throw fast, slow, fast. I may like to throw slow, fast, fast. Both methods are just different.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> BUT, how can you judge a Rembrandt versus a Monet versus a Picasso on how well they painted a tree? Each one is beautiful within the methods of their expression.



Well exactly, so why do it?



Yokazuna514 said:


> you are fortunate to have a good concentration of schools in a reasonable geographic area



Well let's face it England is a small place and martial arts here aren't nearly as commercial.




Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are more in that list such as:
> 
> - 6 harmony,
> - speed,
> ...



And? we all know you can throw a combination of punches but in kata they need to be in the right order and correctly, how do you know that they are done the way the style's kata demands? Or do you just award points because it looks good.

I tried a few JKD classes run by a friend of mine a while back, I couldn't manage to get the differences in stances, execution of strikes and a lot of other things, not to mention the strain on my worn out knees. My point is that it's vey different from Wado Ryu karate and without knowing and understanding those differences how can you give scores that do justice to the competitor? I would not judge any of their forms, it would be rude of me to think I could. I have too much respect for other people to judge their katas.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 10, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> how do you know that they are done the way the style's kata demands? Or do you just award points because it looks good.


I agree that we do need to have some knowledge about the MA system that we judge. That's why in CMA tournament, there are judges in 3 categories.

1. northern style - long fist, preying mantis, Baji, Tongbei, ...
2. southern style - WC, CLF, Hong Ga, southern mantis, ...
3. internal style - Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, XYLH, ...

There was a Taiji Legacy tournament in Dallas many years ago. A guy did a long fist form while competed in a Baji form division. After every judges gave that guy a score, I gave him 8.0 (score from 8.0 to 9.0). The lowest score that any judge could offer. After I had explained my reason. I then found out that I was the only judge among those 5 judges who understood what Baji form suppose to look like (compress to the maximum and then release to the maximum).

Here is a Baji form.






If you compare it to the long fist form, it's easy to tell the difference. There is no compress and release in the long fist form.


----------



## punisher73 (Oct 10, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I agree that we do need to have some knowledge about the MA system that we judge. That's why in CMA tournament, there are judges in 3 categories.
> 
> 1. northern style - long fist, preying mantis, Baji, Tongbei, ...
> 2. southern style - WC, CLF, Hong Ga, southern mantis, ...
> ...



It seems to me that your example is exactly what Tez and myself are talking about (sorry Tez, not trying to put words in your mouth).  If you had not been there, the judging would have been inaccurate.  So why judge someone else's style?


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Oct 10, 2018)

Respectfully, I do not believe anyone here is trying to convince you to judge another style's kata if you are not comfortable with it.   In the same respect, if I volunteer to judge at a tournament, I cannot in good conscience have a list of what I will do and what I will not do.  If each judge did that, it may be difficult to run a tournament.   If you know in advance that their may be other styles attending a tournament you are judging in and you prefer to exclude yourself, then so be it.    

I'm really not here to argue with anyone but to exchange points of view on martial arts with other folks who are interested in doing the same.   Yours and mine differ here.   Not a problem for me but thanks for sharing your point of view.


----------



## Christopher Adamchek (Oct 10, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I don't think Uechi ryu does hip.
> 
> I also don't believe in judging kata. Once you go down that road karate becomes dancing.



I mostly agree

shes smooth and quick which is nice, i personally would have liked to have seen a bit more hip action


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 10, 2018)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> i personally would have liked to have seen a bit more hip action


Some MA styles have more "body method" than others.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Respectfully, I do not believe anyone here is trying to convince you to judge another style's kata



I'm not arguing either just trying to understand on what points a karateka could judge a CMA form ( and vice versa) fairly because I cannot see how without specific knowledge of something you can judge it against other things you also don't understand.


----------



## pdg (Oct 10, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not arguing either just trying to understand on what points a karateka could judge a CMA form ( and vice versa) fairly because I cannot see how without specific knowledge of something you can judge it against other things you also don't understand.



Even given the relationship with tkd, I couldn't fairly judge a 'karate' variant kata without a lot of prior research into what's supposed to be going on.

Different movement, different sequences, different timings - about the only thing I might be able to assess is effort, but even then how do I judge what is supposed to be relaxed and what is tense?

As for CMA, toss a coin really...


----------



## _Simon_ (Oct 10, 2018)

Yeah I can see both sides. I compete in all styles tournaments and I honestly wouldn't know how to judge CMA forms, they're so different... but that's the thing. We can say all this, but without understanding the SPECIFIC judging and referring guidelines for a specific tournament, we don't know.

For example, I've taken a photo of part of the competition rules/criteria for my tournaments (thought this might be more helpful than speculation!). Here is what they look for: (and you can see they try their best to eliminate bias)

All judges also have to undergo the referring courses/seminars specific to this tournament circuit, so they're as close to the same page as they can be for an all styles tournament


----------



## _Simon_ (Oct 10, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is a Baji form.



And wooow, I enjoyed that! He was like a coiled spring, and then POP!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 10, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> And wooow, I enjoyed that! He was like a coiled spring, and then POP!


Back in the 80th, there were a group of Japanese karate guys that went to China just to investigate the Baji system. Some Karate guys think that the "compress and release" principle can be added into their Karate system.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 10, 2018)

dup, deleted.


----------



## _Simon_ (Oct 11, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Back in the 80th, there were a group of Japanese karate guys that went to China just to investigate the Baji system. Some Karate guys think that the "compress and release" principle can be added into their Karate system.


Wow, very cool. I can't say I understand the CMA forms but dang they're cool. And I'd love to incorporate compress and release into my karate, it sort of uses it already, but I'd imagine in a different way to CMA


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> For example, I've taken a photo of part of the competition rules/criteria for my tournaments (thought this might be more helpful than speculation!). Here is what they look for: (and you can see they try their best to eliminate bias)




Thank you, this seems to more the judging of artistic style rather than kata something I think single style comps don't do. It's more of a surface judgement than one of an in depth understanding of the kata you are doing which is what a single style comp does I think. Sounds good if that's what you like, I prefer the single style concept for sure.

I did love the warning to parents though!  I've seen parents in all sorts of activities from gymkhanas to football matches rage at officials when their little darling didn't do as well as they thought they should.


----------



## _Simon_ (Oct 11, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Thank you, this seems to more the judging of artistic style rather than kata something I think single style comps don't do. It's more of a surface judgement than one of an in depth understanding of the kata you are doing which is what a single style comp does I think. Sounds good if that's what you like, I prefer the single style concept for sure.



Yeah for sure, it definitely does take into account technique, power, and how you actually 'apply' it in the form (as though you were actually using it). That's what I think differs it from just a dance, the judges do look to see that you semi-understand the movements in how you physically perform and apply it, rather than just going through the motions. They try their best to see the martial application part of it and that you are showing the interpretation through the movement, but hard when done solo obviously hehe.

And I guess you could only really judge the in depth understanding aspect if you were actually applying it to someone else in a comp hey!



Tez3 said:


> I did love the warning to parents though!  I've seen parents in all sorts of activities from gymkhanas to football matches rage at officials when their little darling didn't do as well as they thought they should.



Ohhhh my goodness Tez3... it's horrendous sometimes... the coaches can get quite bad, but the parents.....!


----------



## DaveB (Oct 11, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Man, you live in contradiction. If you want to live completely in the past, why do you even offer your opinion?


Spouting bluster and nonsense doesn't translate into a worthwhile point, nor does it counter anything I've said.

I have belittled something you enjoy so you want to lash out to protect it and your hurt feelings, I get it. Trouble is I'm a little too old to care (and I'm really not that old).

You don't have to agree with me, but if you want to discuss my ideas, throwing your toys out of your pram isn't a good way to do it.


----------



## DaveB (Oct 11, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> ****It went personal by your damning and narrow opinion. For those who understand, appreciate and desire competition a greater identification of what forms can be and be used for is found. The premise that there is a narrow, mystic purpose to forms and only one way is the right way is old school, outdated, and absurd to the thinking person. *


*
*
I think it's sad that you are so easily offended.

My opinion was neither damming nor narrow. Nor did I present it as the only way. Just my opinion. 

There is a purpose to forms, it is not mystical. Can you do other stuff with them, yes. In this case I find the activity to be detrimental to the art as I see it as a form of disinformation. 



> ***You cannot give people of the same ilk the credit to think critically? If I do a "perfect" front stance middle punch and you do the same they will look different for many different reasons. A student, school or instructor who thinks they are supposed to conform everyone to such an extreme is diluted. You figured all this out with only one tournament?*


*
*
I don't understand how this relates to my views?



> ***A valid statement. Ala, very much class time. Oh yea, if your class is unable to provide the understanding of a form, maybe that is where the problem lies . I encourage my students to explore and discover outside regular classes. I am not concerned that they may think another style or system is better because I do not advocate the idea. I really don't know your point on the last statement. *


*
*
I don't get your point here either.

Kata have set performance criteria, a "right" way. I said that having one "right" way, the thing you judge the performance against in a single style competition, is limiting to the students because you can learn a lot from varying your performance to learn other ways techniques connect together. 



> ****Wow. Tell that to the person doing either one. Forms are an elemental component of training. Because you do not understand the interpretation of a form, or a dance for that matter, does not summarily make it wrong. I have seen someone do a particular move and saw added value or effectiveness in how they did it. Especially moves that I may not be as gifted at as them. *


*
*
And I greatly improved my flexibility with help from a dancer. I don't get the relevance of your statement to mine?

My point is that ma is not dance and judging it as if it were creates misunderstanding about forms.
*

*


> ****The hours and hours of shadow boxing is what allowed them to get the trophy. You understanding the value of the underlying parts to performing a move/form effectively but judge the end product negatively because?*


The point is arts that are respected ways of fighting don't waste time trying to look pretty during training drills, nor do they compound this waste of time by trying to win prizes in looking pretty doing trainibg drills, which is what kata comp is.



> ****Totally disagree. Aesthetics. How do we do anything without it? If you do anything and I watch it, I can say there is an aesthetic value to it or not. It shouldn't reduce the value of it unless there are fundamental errors. I think this is where you get hung up. If we both saw someone perform a technique we would process the image differently. But we would both be able to evaluate what we see and decide if it has value or not and to the degree of the value. *



None of that has anything to do with people who train in a fighting art devoting significant amounts of time to making a central training exercise look pretty rather than relating that exercise to combat.

It seems that you have misunderstood much of my position.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Oct 11, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Maybe.  And it depends.
> 
> You can always have an opinion.  It might not be worth much.  Having experience with something else may not make your opinion worth much.



By this response, you have validated your own opinion, _to yourself._


----------



## ShotoNoob (Oct 11, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I think her performance is quite good.


What's good mean?


> Definitely in line with what I’ve seen from Uechi Ryu practitioners. Uechi kata aren’t flashy at all; just simple and effective moves (if you know their application). I’ve been told there’s truly only one type of kick in Uechi, which is a front kick with the toes. Many dojos add roundhouse and a few other basic kicks, but I don’t think they’re part of the formal syllabus.


I would assume her form is technically correct, the techniques were the correct ones.  Her reaction to the judging didn't indicate otherwise, or did it?



> My only criticism of the kata is she should add a little more power to the techniques.



And how, specifically, should this additional power be expressed? Why do you say, a little?

I'm not sure power, or strength in motion? is the proper guidance.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 11, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> By this response, you have validated your own opinion, _to yourself._


No, I haven’t.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Oct 11, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> No, I haven’t.


 Touche for rhetoric.  BTW I concur with of the training purpose of kata substance in your posts.

On the level of resolving the OP's issue, however, you've merely reinforced your own argument, your own position, your own self image by stating someone's judgment isn't an absolute.  Then taking an absolute position on that places yourself  above them in competence....  Judgment is always subject.  We see the consensus on that issue here.

An opinion sir, is all any of us have.  Or should I say Sr. Grandmaster?


----------



## pdg (Oct 11, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Or should I say Sr. Grandmaster



He's only Sr. Grandmaster of post-jitsu and forum-fu...


----------



## ShotoNoob (Oct 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> He's only Sr. Grandmaster of post-jitsu and forum-fu...



Well, to be _absolute, the risk of that, _we all are.  Typing stuff in.  BTW,  It's my opinion that this is one of the better discussions I've seen about kata, both on the competition venue, and as Crane Flyer proposes, for training.

For the serious students of the martial arts, it's doesn't hurt to investigate a forum which collects a myriad & cross section of practitioners.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Oct 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> He's only Sr. Grandmaster of post-jitsu and forum-fu...


I'm still digesting Renee Martin's performance.  As an individual, I find her very impressive, how she carries herself.  A benefit of kata / karate training in general?  22 years.  3rd degree Black-belt.  Travels' to Okinawa to compete.  Amongst those masters.  Impressive.

I'm not really acquainted with her style, I understand it to be Okinawan.  Generally, I don't care for Okinawan karate styles.  That's a personal preference founded on my own study of a Japanese related style.

As a general rule, I feel that the Okinawan styles are more advanced hence more difficult to train.  In viewing her kata performance, credit where credit it due on that score.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 11, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I think it's sad that you are so easily offended.
> 
> My opinion was neither damming nor narrow. Nor did I present it as the only way. Just my opinion.
> 
> ...


I am offended when someone of limited understanding dogs on something I am passionate about. Your idea that competitions are some powder puff league is just stupid. Clearly we misunderstand each other so I am going to make it easy and say I disagree with everything you said. It is non-productive to try and have a debate. Oh yea, you really need to work on your sentence structure.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 11, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Touche for rhetoric.  BTW I concur with of the training purpose of kata substance in your posts.
> 
> On the level of resolving the OP's issue, however, you've merely reinforced your own argument, your own position, your own self image by stating someone's judgment isn't an absolute.  Then taking an absolute position on that places yourself  above them in competence....  Judgment is always subject.  We see the consensus on that issue here.
> 
> An opinion sir, is all any of us have.  Or should I say Sr. Grandmaster?


One who has a history of training in a certain method will have an opinion on that method that is worth something, the value increasing or decreasing depending on the duration/depth of that training.

One who does not have such history is still welcome to an opinion, but that opinion is not worth much.

I have no training in the Japanese or Okinawan systems, so while I may have an opinion based on my own training, that opinion is not worth much in the context of what matters in the Japanese and Okinawan methods.

One who has trained in the Japanese or Okinawan methods but not any of the Chinese methods (which can vary tremendously) is likewise welcome to hold an opinion, which will not be worth much.

That is all I am saying.

I’m not really sure now, what you are saying.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 11, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> That is one of the more ridiculous comparisons I have heard.  Sure there are a lot of bad tournament forms and approaches out there just like there are a plethora of "culturally correct" forms being taught that are no where close. Maybe you lost at your first tournament and never got over it? The best component about tournament forms is the competition with yourself. Not everyone can get there however.



Personally, I'm not an advocate of tournament competition in general.  Kata even more so.  Agree a lot with Flying Crane.

I feel though, we have to put our personal agenda's aside and recognize that formal competition is beneficial, potentially beneficial for practitioners, the organizations, and the art.  And you've captured that in your posts.

Through in for instructors also.  The whole concept of pressure testing should be mentioned.


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## dvcochran (Oct 11, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Spouting bluster and nonsense doesn't translate into a worthwhile point, nor does it counter anything I've said.
> mething you enjoy so you want to lash out to protect it and your hurt feelings, I get it. Trouble is I'm a little too old to care (and I'm really not that old).
> 
> You don't have to agree with me, but if you want to discuss my ideas, throwing your toys out of your pram isn't a good way to do it.


When you can offer something of substance instead of coughing up ignorant opinions about something you clearly know little about I will listen. Clearly you don't care but you should. Have no clue what a pram is and now I am certain I couldn't care less about your ideas. <0value


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## dvcochran (Oct 11, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Well, to be _absolute, the risk of that, _we all are.  Typing stuff in.  BTW,  It's my opinion that this is one of the better discussions I've seen about kata, both on the competition venue, and as Crane Flyer proposes, for training.
> 
> For the serious students of the martial arts, it's doesn't hurt to investigate a forum which collects a myriad & cross section of practitioners.


For what it is worth, I hold the opinion that competition, at least quality training for and quality tournaments, are an excellent form of learning many facets of the Martial Arts, forms included.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 11, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> One who has a history of training in a certain method will have an opinion on that method that is worth something, the value increasing or decreasing depending on the duration/depth of that training.



Thanks for getting back.  To quote you on absolute.  One who has a history of training in a certain method is only assured of being exposed to that method & hence it's workings.  More time spent in training may or may not be productively done... depending on the competency of that training. Depth of training, I would applaud as a proper qualifier.

I didn't want to go through you whole statement.  Your emphasis & belief that kata is a training tool is precisely how the Okinawan's used it until was it Shotokan practice brought into the spotlight the kumite competition.  I'm feel you are benefiting those who study with you... to the extent of your postings on this topic.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 11, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I have no training in the Japanese or Okinawan systems, so while I may have an opinion based on my own training, that opinion is not worth much in the context of what matters in the Japanese and Okinawan methods.
> 
> One who has trained in the Japanese or Okinawan methods but not any of the Chinese methods (which can vary tremendously) is likewise welcome to hold an opinion, which will not be worth much.
> 
> That is all I am saying.



While the traditional martial arts styles have differences, they all have a commonality underlying their efficacy.  That's my understanding.

Based on that admitted generalization, the judgment I have about Renee's karate is that the basic form is pretty good, well done.  The rendition & physical movement of the techniques.  Her movement and stance transition are sound.  Her concentration & control are good.

In the power or strength department, I believe there are two conceptual considerations which are critical.  One, she is female and therefore has the physique of the sex.  Two, TMU, the karate and generic character of karate exhibited in that form is advanced karate.  Which brings up anther debate about what advanced karate is.

I see a lot of crane style technique.  Crane karate is advanced in that it's power does not rely on that direct, heavy muscular strength apparent across so much of Japanese karate.

That's why I say undertaking Okinawan karate is for the very ambitious.


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## pdg (Oct 11, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Well, to be _absolute, the risk of that, _we all are. Typing stuff in.



If we're talking absolutes, then really we're all not...

You're only a Master Black Belt, and I outrank you with being a Senior Master


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## Flying Crane (Oct 11, 2018)

I do have a fair bit of experience with forms/kata competition, for what it’s worth.  I realize other people will have different experiences, or different perceptions of those experiences, or may compete in tournaments that are run differently than those I competed in.  So while I feel my opinion has worth in this case, it is not absolute.

When I was a teenage kenpo student in the mid 1980s I competed in two open tournaments with competitors from many systems, as a colored belt.  I believe I placed third in both tournaments.  We were the only kenpo school in the area, so my judges were from Tae Kwon do and karate backgrounds, as that was prevalent at that time, in that area.  I don’t know what they thought of my forms, I never got a critique.  However, my kenpo teacher also competed in my second tournament.  In the middle of his form he had a brain-fart and flubbed the form.  He managed to recover fairly well and completed the form.  Afterward, he spoke with one of the judges who told him that he (the judge) liked the form and would have given the win to my teacher, except that when he saw my teacher roll his eyes he figured my teacher made a mistake in the form so he graded lower.  That shows you how little the judges knew about the forms from our system.

Later, in the early 2000s as a Kung fu student I competed in a number of Chinese style tournaments, open to practitioners of all Chinese systems.  Competition was segregated Traditional from Modern Wushu, and further deliberations for age, gender, level of experience, Northern or southern or internal style, sometimes animal style and “other” as a catch-all, long weapon, short weapon, double weapon, flexible weapon...there may have been others.

There were so many specialty divisions, sometimes there were vast parts of the tournament with no competitors.

At any rate, I was never terribly interested but my Sifu was one of the major promoters of one of the big tournaments so I competed to support him, often competing in several divisions at each tournament, always in the Traditional categories.  I do not believe I ever competed without scoring a medal.  Mostly gold, a few silver, and an occasional bronze.  My groups often had a dozen or so competitors.  I was also Grand Champion of my age group twice, which meant that I competed in a particular group of categories and scored the highest average.

To their credit, the tournaments always managed to get a solid lineup of judges, people who were well established and well respected Sifu in the Chinese martial arts community in the San Francisco area.  So these were knowledgeable folks, although nobody can be knowledgeable about everything.

Over the years I scored maybe three dozen or more medals.  I even went to China once to compete, and made fifth place out of 19 with my broadsword, which earned me a silver medal based on some bizarre algorithm.  I would joke that I will make myself a shirt of maille by sewing my medals into the lining of my jacket.

Those medals sit in a box in my garage and never see the light of day, unless I happen to be cleaning out the garage and I uncover them.  They sit there with my nunchaku and throwing stars and other fairly useless stuff that I ought to just get rid of.

Anyways, that is my history and that is what I base my opinion on.  I am not a fan of kata competition.  I feel it turns kata into performance art, which it was never meant to be.  In my first two tournaments as a kenpo kid, we added extra kicks to make it more appealing to the Tae Kwon do judges.  It is that desire to make the form more “performance worthy” that I feel lead to the development of XMA which is a martial-inspired performance art and I feel should be viewed as something different and not actually a martial art.

Anyway, that is where my experience is from and that is what I base my opinion on, for what it’s worth.


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## DaveB (Oct 12, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I am offended when someone of limited understanding dogs on something I am passionate about. Your idea that competitions are some powder puff league is just stupid. Clearly we misunderstand each other so I am going to make it easy and say I disagree with everything you said. It is non-productive to try and have a debate. Oh yea, you really need to work on your sentence structure.


I don't remember calling kata competition a powder puff league, whatever that is.

If debate is pointless it's only because you don't seem to know how. 

You've claimed I don't understand kata competition but most of your refutation of my criticisms completely misses the point. 
Must be my poor sentence structure .

If there is something I'm not getting about kata as performance rather than kata as training, I'm happy to learn it. So far though  all you have are attacks.


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## DaveB (Oct 12, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> When you can offer something of substance instead of coughing up ignorant opinions about something you clearly know little about I will listen. Clearly you don't care but you should. Have no clue what a pram is and now I am certain I couldn't care less about your ideas. <0value


A pram is a wheeled thing you lay a baby in to transport them by pushing.


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## Tez3 (Oct 12, 2018)

DaveB said:


> kata as performance rather than kata as training




I think this is a fundamental difference that many aren't getting. I don't honestly see how my competing in a mixed style competition will help my training in actual karate and the self defence that kata is, for us, meant for. I can see how competing in these competitions would help my performance and help me to win a trophy. Adding extra flashy kicks, Kiai-ing louder, audible breathing etc. the frills that make a performance noteworthy.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 12, 2018)

pdg said:


> If we're talking absolutes, then really we're all not...
> 
> You're only a Master Black Belt, and I outrank you with being a Senior Master



I'm only a "Master" 'cause the forum computer said so.


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## Tez3 (Oct 12, 2018)

DaveB said:


> A pram is a wheeled thing you lay a baby in to transport them by pushing.



Short for perambulator.


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## pgsmith (Oct 12, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I think this is a fundamental difference that many aren't getting. I don't honestly see how my competing in a mixed style competition will help my training in actual karate and the self defence that kata is, for us, meant for. I can see how competing in these competitions would help my performance and help me to win a trophy. Adding extra flashy kicks, Kiai-ing louder, audible breathing etc. the frills that make a performance noteworthy.



  And therein lies the rub. There are a great many people that share your point of view, which is absolutely valid for you. However, there are also a great many people that feel that there is value in mixed style competitions, and their point of view is valid for them also. Everyone must decide what is valid for themselves in regards their own personal practice, and just because their own view on validity is different, it doesn't make their view wrong ... just different. Lots of people seem to have big problems with different.

  From my own experience, I enjoy mixed style competitions, although I speak of Japanese sword art competitions rather than karate competitions. In a mixed style JSA competition (I've been to quite a few over the years) people compete in kata, and also in performing various pre-determined cutting sequences on targets. The only real benefit as a practitioner from the competition itself is the fact that you are required to go up in front of a panel of judges as well as a live audience, and perform your cuts or kata with everyone watching. It does add quite a bit of pressure that's missing from a normal dojo setting.

  However, the real benefits that I've garnered from these competitions are before and after the actual competition itself. There are always seminars given by the various high ranking judges in various different styles. There is always a demonstration the night before the competition where a large number different styles are represented by high ranking individuals. There are also evenings in the local bar where friendships are made and lots of good information is handed out with and amongst various high ranking individuals from a number of different styles. The intangible benefits I've gained over the years have been invaluable.

  Of course, we also don't have to deal with adding flashy kicks, audible breathing, or otherwise changing our individual kata to make them more "performance worthy".


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## Tez3 (Oct 12, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> Lots of people seem to have big problems with different.



Oh ain't that the truth.

What I find a bit annoying is when I was asking questions on here one poster in particular assumed I was arguing that my way was right, when I was actually asking 'how'. it's a bit sad I still haven't had my questions answered by that poster. Other have explained though which is good.



pgsmith said:


> The only real benefit as a practitioner from the competition itself is the fact that you are required to go up in front of a panel of judges as well as a live audience, and perform your cuts or kata with everyone watching. It does add quite a bit of pressure that's missing from a normal dojo setting.




We do that in our single style comps, it is pressure because of everyone knowing exactly what you should be doing.



pgsmith said:


> There are always seminars given by the various high ranking judges in various different styles. There is always a demonstration the night before the competition where a large number different styles are represented by high ranking individuals. There are also evenings in the local bar where friendships are made and lots of good information is handed out with and amongst various high ranking individuals from a number of different styles. The intangible benefits I've gained over the years have been invaluable.



We've never had that, and mixed style comps as I said are few and far between here, I think I've only seen one advertised in years, it was only a day comp, had sparring as well, no seminars etc which sound fun.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 12, 2018)

Why do people use form to perform? When a group of "old" MA people get together, they are too old to spar/wrestle, but they want to exchange MA information, what can they do? They can perform they art.

This is why the CMA has 3 different ways to do the form. You can do form for

1. combat - punch out fast, pull back fast.
2. health - punch out slow, pull back fast.
3. performance - punch out fast, freeze, pull back slow.

The breathing method are all different too.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 12, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> And therein lies the rub. There are a great many people that share your point of view, which is absolutely valid for you. However, there are also a great many people that feel that there is value in mixed style competitions, and their point of view is valid for them also. Everyone must decide what is valid for themselves in regards their own personal practice, and just because their own view on validity is different, it doesn't make their view wrong ... just different. Lots of people seem to have big problems with different.



Very well put, pgsmith.


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## Buka (Oct 12, 2018)

Those familiar with my posts know, I never did Kata as part of my training, because American Karate at the time didn't have Kata. But two groups of people in open tournaments always asked me to judge Black Belt Kata. The promoters and the competitors. I always said yes and judged. They asked because they knew I didn't play favorites to any one style or person, they knew I had an experienced eye, and they knew I didn't give a crap about pissing anyone off.
_
"But how can you KNOW whether or not the people doing Katas are making mistakes?!/!"_

You can't, really, unless they're obvious mistakes. If you do your Whatever Style Kata and perform a couple of moves out of order, I probably won't notice - especially if you know how to cover, but that's okay, I'll judge you on the Kata as I see it. 

Apparently it all worked okay. They asked me a dozen times a year for about twenty years, couldn't have been too many complaints.

I was asked to judge in some Invitation Only tournaments of various particular styles. I think it was to balance out the judging and to shake up the competitors.

I don't think Kata should even be in any competition, doesn't make much sense to me that it is. As I understand it, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the ideas of sport competition. But we all know why it's in competitions....there are usually fee$ to enter competition.


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## Tez3 (Oct 12, 2018)

Buka said:


> I don't think Kata should even be in any competition, doesn't make much sense to me that it is



I actually agree, we did kata comps within our style and it was judged on how you did our styles kata which is basically how our founder did them. Fees not involved though.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 12, 2018)

Buka said:


> Those familiar with my posts know, I never did Kata as part of my training, because American Karate at the time didn't have Kata. But two groups of people in open tournaments always asked me to judge Black Belt Kata. The promoters and the competitors. I always said yes and judged. They asked because they knew I didn't play favorites to any one style or person, they knew I had an experienced eye, and they knew I didn't give a crap about pissing anyone off.
> _
> "But how can you KNOW whether or not the people doing Katas are making mistakes?!/!"_
> 
> ...



Ah nice, didn't know that!



Buka said:


> I don't think Kata should even be in any competition, doesn't make much sense to me that it is. As I understand it, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the ideas of sport competition. But we all know why it's in competitions....there are usually fee$ to enter competition.



Ah ok fair enough. I know the comps I'm involved in are incredibly integrous and not out to make money. And all the judges, referees, officials, timekeepers, scorers etc are all volunteers too, they use their own free time to be involved, and don't get paid a cent! They do get lunch provided though .

There is a fee to compete in them, but it's a massive thing to run, it's insane the amount of organisation involved, especially in the bigger ones, so I'm happy to support them, as I know they're intention is to bring martial artists together, and to break down any walls between 'styles' and gain new perspectives and appreciation for other styles, and new friendships.

I love kata in competition. There's something truly special about it... and anyone who has walked into the centre of that ring, solo, not relying on anyone and remaining focused and in that zone has felt that.

All performance dramatics aside (which can certainly detract from the meaning of it), I see it as a judge of solid stance, technique, power, tension and relaxation where appropriate, body control, focus, discipline, performance under pressure, proper breathing, ability to move forward despite any mistakes made, transitions, balance, alignment, posture, intention, spirit, and determination. The performance kata is like a communication of these particular aspects of what, to me, karate is also about. Which I'd say is just as if not more important than fighting application. But then I'm weird like that ;P.

I have also cried watching some katas being performed, and not ashamed to admit that XD. There are certain people who just embody karate with all their heart and soul, and you could intuit their intention and energy as they perform and far out, you could see the difference in power and well, everything..

But I do see why many don't see the value of kata in competition for sure, I do understand that, and I guess it comes down to what kata and karate means to them.


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## dvcochran (Oct 12, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah nice, didn't know that!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very well said.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 14, 2018)

Contrast Renee's Okinawan kata with this American's Shotokan competition form, ah performance art?

*ROISIN ELIZABETH CAMPBELL, KATA SOCHIN - JKA ALL JAPAN CHAMPIONSHIP 2015*
2,669 views







Arild Damm
Published on Apr 3, 2016

ireneusz nowak9 months ago
She is better than many old, fat, Japanese black belts. Needs to improve her core strength and kicking

Read the comment.  I caught the kicking, a bit.  Kicking to true perfection is much more challenging than hands.  The core strength, not sure I'm seeing much fault there.  Shotokan has a muscular bias.  Valuable consideration, yes.

Elizabeth's belt has master's wear.  Not for me to say.  What I am comfortable saying is her kata is approaching perfection in what Japanese karate can achieve.  What more can we ask?  Had I been on the JKA panel, my vote would have been 2nd place.  That's how strongly I feel, I believe in in the substance of her accomplishment.

Edit:  My limited understanding is that the JKA is a highly political environment.  Yet an Amercian karateka took 3rd place in the All Japan female kata competition.  A stunning achievement.

BRAVO.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 16, 2018)

A fitting clip from Sensei Rick Hotton (and whilst I do compete I always keep this in mind and wholeheartedly support this):


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Judging a kata by the style you train or have accomplishment in makes much sense.  OTOH, I don't have to be an expert to present an informed opinion about the OP's kata illustration.  Understanding kata conceptually, understanding traditional karate or traditional martial arts overall puts me in the position to express an evaluation having potential merit.


I think this is true, though only to a point. I can tell if a person is balanced and in control. I can tell if they're focusing well. But I can't judge their stances, because they aren't the stances I studied. I might not like the stance, but if it's the correct stance for that style, well, then it's correct and I won't know it. And there are many kata I've seen where I didn't like entire segments of the kata - probably because I had no idea what the point of the kata was. The same goes for some methods and styles of movement.

So, if I were judging kata, I'd only be able to judge on things like movement, flow (and even that's tricky, since some styles are more staccato by nature), balance, and control. So a good kata won't be terribly different from a great kata in my scoring, unless the great kata is changed to show off more balance and control, which starts to change the kata. So now the kata has been altered to appeal more to me (because I don't understand it), getting further from its original training purpose.

Mind you, I'm actually okay with that, so long as we agree it's becoming a performance art, rather than a training tool. I actually enjoy watching a good "flash" kata.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 16, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think this is true, though only to a point. I can tell if a person is balanced and in control. I can tell if they're focusing well. But I can't judge their stances, because they aren't the stances I studied. I might not like the stance, but if it's the correct stance for that style, well, then it's correct and I won't know it.



Definitely true in terms of specific, exacting judging on the particular style itself.

Where I diverge is that there  are varying stances within a style which accomplish certain & differing objectives.  This dimension of stances exists across all styles of karate and among the traditional martial arts as a generalization.  There's a horse stance in the fung fu's as a whole; there's a horse stance in Shotokan.  There's a front stance in Tang Soo Do and there is a lunge stance in Shotokan.  Some particular & specific variations which do exist between style, the are commonalities, common objectives.  The later area I can pass some competent judgement on because of my participation and experience in traditional karate and martial arts.



gpseymour said:


> And there are many kata I've seen where I didn't like entire segments of the kata - probably because I had no idea what the point of the kata was. The same goes for some methods and styles of movement.



Sure.  Even at the expert level, no one is all knowing.  Everyone puzzles over particular kata routines and what the author-masters were seeking to convey.  This is the old, anti-karate argument that one really doesn't know what the kata is for or what it's trying to do.  Because we are hundreds of years removed, with many interim masters, of course there is truth to that criticism.

Yet, this can be sad to be a criticism of traditional martial arts, traditional karate's as a whole generalization.  The answer comes from realizing that the human potential sought to be developed through traditional martial arts training addresses comprehensively the strengths of that human potential.  And that's spelled out in the manuals, the curriculum.

The other sport, physically centered methods such as boxing IMO are more integral in their design, they are easier to see how the whole system works and more practical to train.  But they don't share the broad based strengths that traditional martial arts does.  This TMA character is embodied in the major components of traditional karate training, kihon, kata, kumite.  This character is the essence or soul of what we are looking for then, in kata.

Furthermore, the way in which traditional martial arts seeks to develop this broad-based human potential is inherently different that how boxing or wrestling's more physically centered method.  The characteristic training form and practice then will also be inherent and expressed in kata.

Traditional karate - whatever the style - becomes powerful & effective when we understand and train to it's universal underlying principle aimed at the above.  Hence, our kihon , kumite & kata done properly to form & intent will reflect this essence in our performance.

BTW: My interpretation then, would handle the _performance art_ criticism of kata.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 16, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Mind you, I'm actually okay with that, so long as we agree it's becoming a performance art, rather than a training tool. I actually enjoy watching a good "flash" kata.



I think we are heading in the same direction; here's some additional explanation from where I sit.

The kata performances we often see here in the USA, with heavy gymnastic type movement & technique, I would name performance art and NOT kata.  Kata is not a physical drill or athletic gym routine.  That's the boxing, wrestling mindset.  Doing & achieving physical skills.  I would say the same for some of what I call the overly forceful physicality & exaggeration in executing technique, along with the screaming at top of one's lungs pretending to be a super kiai.  This again, is trying to make kata competition into a contest of physical strength & physical talents, a demonstration of athletics.

This rendition, in actuality, defeats the benefits of kata & undermines it's broad-based traditional martial arts purpose.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 16, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> A fitting clip from Sensei Rick Hotton (and whilst I do compete I always keep this in mind and wholeheartedly support this):
> 
> _[vid link omitted]_



What is the Sensi's karate style?  His demonstrations are so advanced they make my head hurt!  Surely he's at the true master level.



_Simon_ said:


> All performance dramatics aside (which can certainly detract from the meaning of it), I see it as a judge of solid stance, technique, power, tension and relaxation where appropriate, body control, focus, discipline, performance under pressure, proper breathing, ability to move forward despite any mistakes made, transitions, balance, alignment, posture, intention, spirit, and determination....



This interpretation of kata by you ties with your video illustration, TMU.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think this is true, though only to a point. I can tell if a person is balanced and in control. I can tell if they're focusing well. But I can't judge their stances, because they aren't the stances I studied. I might not like the stance, but if it's the correct stance for that style, well, then it's correct and I won't know it. And there are many kata I've seen where I didn't like entire segments of the kata - probably because I had no idea what the point of the kata was. The same goes for some methods and styles of movement.
> 
> So, if I were judging kata, I'd only be able to judge on things like movement, flow (and even that's tricky, since some styles are more staccato by nature), balance, and control. So a good kata won't be terribly different from a great kata in my scoring, unless the great kata is changed to show off more balance and control, which starts to change the kata. So now the kata has been altered to appeal more to me (because I don't understand it), getting further from its original training purpose.
> 
> Mind you, I'm actually okay with that, so long as we agree it's becoming a performance art, rather than a training tool. I actually enjoy watching a good "flash" kata.


Very well said! Yeah one can judge it only to a certain point, so if the competition criteria are only along those lines and those more universal characteristics (which would be stated within the rules), then it could be judged by all judges, as it's only that they're looking at/for.

STILL is a tricky thing to do though I reckon... especially if some styles characterise and define 'balance' or 'power' in different ways.. ! :s


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## _Simon_ (Oct 17, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> What is the Sensi's karate style?  His demonstrations are so advanced they make my head hurt!  Surely he's at the true master level.
> 
> 
> This interpretation of kata by you ties with your video illustration, TMU.



He comes from Shotokan, but also as practiced Aikido for many years, so he blends alot of aiki principles within his teaching style of karate (so aiki-karate). He's brilliant... and I really resonate with his teachings.

Yeah I definitely see kata more in this light... and that's totally fine to see its only purpose as a practical application, self-defense reactions/drills or self defense principles, but to me it encompasses more.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Definitely true in terms of specific, exacting judging on the particular style itself.
> 
> Where I diverge is that there  are varying stances within a style which accomplish certain & differing objectives.  This dimension of stances exists across all styles of karate and among the traditional martial arts as a generalization.  There's a horse stance in the fung fu's as a whole; there's a horse stance in Shotokan.  There's a front stance in Tang Soo Do and there is a lunge stance in Shotokan.  Some particular & specific variations which do exist between style, the are commonalities, common objectives.  The later area I can pass some competent judgement on because of my participation and experience in traditional karate and martial arts.



Here’s the first place we can still run into issues. I guarantee the jigotai/horse stance I teach is incorrect in most other styles. It’s not low enough, and usually not wide enough. How can someone from any other style know if that stance is correct or not? If I judged their stance on my teaching criteria...





> Sure.  Even at the expert level, no one is all knowing.  Everyone puzzles over particular kata routines and what the author-masters were seeking to convey.  This is the old, anti-karate argument that one really doesn't know what the kata is for or what it's trying to do.  Because we are hundreds of years removed, with many interim masters, of course there is truth to that criticism.
> 
> Yet, this can be sad to be a criticism of traditional martial arts, traditional karate's as a whole generalization.  The answer comes from realizing that the human potential sought to be developed through traditional martial arts training addresses comprehensively the strengths of that human potential.  And that's spelled out in the manuals, the curriculum.
> 
> ...



I don’t know that we inTMA have as much more depth than some other sport/hobby activities. If someone trains with a coach long-term in any discipline, that coach can have that kind of lasting impact on character. We occasionally see it from high school sports coaches, when they have some of the same players for 3-4 years. That said, I think we do tend to be more purposeful in that area than many in other disciplines, so maybe we are more generally effective there. 

As for the depth of the kata, I’m not convinced. My kata aren’t that deep. They aren’t intended to be. They are physical exercises to engrain some transitions and make solo practice more organized. They are not much more than that. So, the soul of my art isn’t in them. If someone wanted to make them prettier for performance, I don’t think there’s anything to criticize in that pursuit, except maybe their choice of a base to start from. As long as they don’t confuse the performance art practice with martial practice, it’s all good.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> I think we are heading in the same direction; here's some additional explanation from where I sit.
> 
> The kata performances we often see here in the USA, with heavy gymnastic type movement & technique, I would name performance art and NOT kata.  Kata is not a physical drill or athletic gym routine.  That's the boxing, wrestling mindset.  Doing & achieving physical skills.  I would say the same for some of what I call the overly forceful physicality & exaggeration in executing technique, along with the screaming at top of one's lungs pretending to be a super kiai.  This again, is trying to make kata competition into a contest of physical strength & physical talents, a demonstration of athletics.
> 
> This rendition, in actuality, defeats the benefits of kata & undermines it's broad-based traditional martial arts purpose.


I like all of it except the last part. I don’t see dancing as contrary to depth of development, even if the dancing is formed from what used to be a martial practice. So I don’t think the performance art aspect undermines the rest.


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## Buka (Oct 17, 2018)

I'll tell you one thing. I went to a bootlaod of Karate tournaments. Big, open tournaments. And I watched a lot of kata. Some of them were fantastic. The kind that make you push back in your chair and put a cinch in your breath. The kind that stick in your mind for years, the kind that make you say HFS.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I guarantee the jigotai/horse stance I teach is incorrect in most other styles. It’s not low enough, and usually not wide enough. How can someone from any other style know if that stance is correct or not? If I judged their stance on my teaching criteria...




We have three 'horse stances' and a lot of other stances I've not seen used in other karate styles. We also have shorter, shallower stances than others as well it would be hard to judge them against Shotokan for example.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 17, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> We have three 'horse stances' and a lot of other stances I've not seen used in other karate styles. We also have shorter, shallower stances than others as well it would be hard to judge them against Shotokan for example.


Yeah, and it isnt just what the stance looks like or how deep it is. There are also issues about how the stances and stance transitions are used within the training methodology.  That can be very different from one system to another.

I can pretty well guarantee that people scratch their head the first time they see my system.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Here’s the first place we can still run into issues. I guarantee the jigotai/horse stance I teach is incorrect in most other styles. It’s not low enough, and usually not wide enough. How can someone from any other style know if that stance is correct or not? If I judged their stance on my teaching criteria...



You are describing physical form differences.  Allowing for that, I was looking at functional similarities.  For instance,  some traditional martial arts styles chamber the hand at the hip.  Others post the chambering hand up a notch at the waist.  Yet others raise the pullled back fist higher up along the ribs.  Which is correct?  Well according the particular style, they all are.  I have a preference, which I believe is theoretically better or best.  The commonality is that many, if not most traditional martial arts styles, certainly the karate style partake / use chambering.

In my mind, then, the question first becomes. "what are we doing functionally by chambering?"  What is it's purpose and then later effect?  I tend to avoid the endless discussions and opinions on this is the way because I've choosen a style, or this particular form is best because Art Jimmerson is a kick boxing champ.  I look for direct reasons.  Low stances accomplish certain goals, as does a lunge stance.  A higher horse stance functions and is applicable for other reasons.  A moderated forward or front stance accomplishes yet different objectives than the deeper, more extended lunge stance.



gpseymour said:


> I don’t know that we inTMA have as much more depth than some other sport/hobby activities. If someone trains with a coach long-term in any discipline, that coach can have that kind of lasting impact on character. We occasionally see it from high school sports coaches, when they have some of the same players for 3-4 years. That said, I think we do tend to be more purposeful in that area than many in other disciplines, so maybe we are more generally effective there.



Certainly this is the perpetual debate about TMA vs. MMA.  More traditional theory over more pragmatical physical practice, what we generally see by in large.  It's really again, coming to a resolution of exactly what the TMA model is doing versus, say what the boxing model is doing, to develop martial skills.  I unequivocally believe the TMA model is superior in potential.  Key word = potential.

More often that not, the debate here is colored by the aptitudes and inclinations of the individual practitioner.  I look to point to MMA as kind of a testing ground, and we've seen some pretty big upsets because conventional MMA thinking at the time came to assumptions which then became assumptions about 'best' styles for MMA, which  a competitor came along and summarily overturned.



gpseymour said:


> As for the depth of the kata, I’m not convinced. My kata aren’t that deep. They aren’t intended to be. *They are physical exercises to engrain some transitions and make solo practice more organized. They are not much more than that.* So, the soul of my art isn’t in them. If someone wanted to make them prettier for performance, I don’t think there’s anything to criticize in that pursuit, except maybe their choice of a base to start from. As long as they don’t confuse the performance art practice with martial practice, it’s all good.



Here's where we divide.  I couldn't disagree more with you bolded statement.  Absolutely wrong as a final conclusion.  Do kata teach physical conditioning and body mechanics,? absolutely.  Physical training is only the initial skill taught by kata, or traditional martial arts in general.  The development of mental discipline is what kata is really all about.  Later, the spirtual dimension.  All  three are trained from the start, the emphasis and growth shifts over time.

I'll have lots of disagreement on this, I'm sure.  I'll post a video below to explain where I'm coming from.  The prettiest aesthetically  isn't really in my vocabulary for kata, the beauty is in how well it translates  what I have described.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Here's where we divide.  I couldn't disagree more with you bolded statement.  Absolutely wrong as a final conclusion.  Do kata teach physical conditioning and body mechanics,? absolutely.  Physical training is only the initial skill taught by kata, or traditional martial arts in general.  The development of mental discipline is what kata is really all about.  Later, the spirtual dimension.  All  three are trained from the start, the emphasis and growth shifts over time.
> 
> I'll have lots of disagreement on this, I'm sure.  I'll post a video below to explain where I'm coming from.  The prettiest aesthetically  isn't really in my vocabulary for kata, the beauty is in how well it translates  what I have described.


When I say "my kata", I'm talking about the ones I actually created. See, that's my point. I know exactly what they were created for, and what their purpose was at that point, yet someone with a different background will expect them to have more to them. We cannot know what the intention was of some kata, because they were created without the creator sharing that information. But I do know that of my own. There's no deeper meaning to them (though I find doing them can be somewhat meditative). They aren't fundamental to the art (they didn't exist until a short time ago). I don't use them or teach them for mental discipline - that comes through the rigor of classes, of going when you don't want to, etc. And there's really nothing spiritual in them, at all.

And all of that applies to the short forms (similar to what most folks call one-steps) that have existed in the art since its inception.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> As for the depth of the kata, I’m not convinced. My kata aren’t that deep. They aren’t intended to be. _*They are physical exercises to engrain some transitions and make solo practice more organized. They are not much more than that. So, the soul of my art isn’t in them.*_ If someone wanted to make them prettier for performance, I don’t think there’s anything to criticize in that pursuit, except maybe their choice of a base to start from. As long as they don’t confuse the performance art practice with martial practice, it’s all good.



I understand.  What I'm proposing then your kata is isn't traditional karate kata.  What's more, probably the majority of karate practitioners are doing just what your'e doing.  So the the value of what they are training by kata really doesn't carry over to kumite, help them there.  Thusly, we have all the criticism of kata as not really central to success in martial arts.  I say it's the reverse.  There isn't any more sophisticated way to train martial arts than through kata.  Here's my clip.

*MAI SHIINA, PERFECT JODAN TSUKI - JKA ALL JAPAN CHAMPIONSHIP 2015*
1,069 views







Arild Damm
Published on Dec 28, 2015

Question.  What drives the Shiina's opponent to leap in and attempt her strike?  How & when does she know to do so.  Same question for Shiina.  How and when does she know when to counter strike?  Otherwise to do what she does, winning the exchange perfectly?

Two accessory questions.  You see testaments to the fact that the kiai is to give confidence.  And to scare or startle the opponent?  Is that the purpose & effect of Shiina's kiai?  Second, Shiina immediately chambers or re-chambers following the counter strike.  Is this just some physical movement she learned as white belt for physical conditioning.  Some simple beginner mechanics? She's leaving her head wide open boxers & MMA would say.  How dumb.  What does the re-chamber accomplish exactly?  Boxer's hit very hard without re-chambering down at the side.

My global point is that traditional martial arts is a comprehensive system of getting it all to work together.  What, is the "it?"


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

mistake


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> So the the value of what they are training by kata really doesn't carry over to kumite,




You are assuming traditional kata is for kumite. The general belief I've found about kata is that it's for civilian self defence not kumite. 

_The applications of kata have their limits and one must come to understand this._

_The techniques of kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter, in an arena or on the battlefield._

_They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behavior._ 


_In spite of a street encounter never being the same, the principles of the kata never vary. One must know how they are applied and how to bend with the winds of adversity._
Choki Motobu

For kumite one trains kumite, I would have thought obviously. For kata use Bunkai.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> I understand.  What I'm proposing then your kata is isn't traditional karate kata.  What's more, probably the majority of karate practitioners are doing just what your'e doing.  So the the value of what they are training by kata really doesn't carry over to kumite, help them there.


I don't know that kata can be direct application to kumite. It has some strong benefits when used well (including when used ways I do not use it), but I don't know that development of skill to transition to kumite is its strongest point.



> Thusly, we have all the criticism of kata as not really central to success in martial arts.  I say it's the reverse.  There isn't any more sophisticated way to train martial arts than through kata.  Here's my clip.
> 
> *MAI SHIINA, PERFECT JODAN TSUKI - JKA ALL JAPAN CHAMPIONSHIP 2015*
> 1,069 views
> ...


Practice and observation of live use. I don't think kata can develop that. I'm honestly not sure if that's what you're implying or not.



> Two accessory questions.  You see testaments to the fact that the kiai is to give confidence.  And to scare or startle the opponent?  Is that the purpose & effect of Shiina's kiai?


My understanding of what kiai does goes well beyond that. I don't know what the purpose of hers is.



> Second, Shiina immediately chambers or re-chambers following the counter strike.  Is this just some physical movement she learned as white belt for physical conditioning.  Some simple beginner mechanics?


I'd say in part it is. That gets refined over time, but it is probably a foundational principle that was started as a beginner, and is a physical skill. It was probably reinforced a lot in sparring.



> She's leaving her head wide open boxers & MMA would say.  How dumb.  What does the re-chamber accomplish exactly?  Boxer's hit very hard without re-chambering down at the side.


I agree. I'm not sure the re-chambering is at all necessary. I can hit about 95% as hard without rechambering as I do if I rechamber. Though someone who studies this method more deeply might find a bit more reward for that opening they leave.



> My global point is that traditional martial arts is a comprehensive system of getting it all to work together.  What, is the "it?"


I don't see traditional arts as more comprehensively "together" than the non-traditional material I've tinkered with. That might be a difference in viewpoint I can't share, not having come through a traditional Karate program (my experience in Karate wasn't deeply traditional), and the approach in NGA is probably significantly different, though it can be as traditionally based.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> When I say "my kata", I'm talking about the ones I actually created. See, that's my point. I know exactly what they were created for, and what their purpose was at that point, yet someone with a different background will expect them to have more to them.



IMHO, your kata are how you practice your kata.  Kata itself, is defined by the traditional martial arts system of training and what it's trying to accomplish.  If you want to make a change to suit your personal objectives that's fine.  But it may no longer qualify as "kata."



gpseymour said:


> We cannot know what the intention was of some kata, because they were created without the creator sharing that information. But I do know that of my own. There's no deeper meaning to them (though I find doing them can be somewhat meditative).



Again, I acknowledged this common sense fact, literally speaking.  The traditional martial arts, here karate, purpose and effect of kata is, however, what defines it.  You find kata somewhat meditative.  I can say that too.  Yet is our personal knowledge of kata or our understanding personally what defines kata?  Kata sets a standard for us to aspire to, and attempt to achieve.  You've decided that your meditative, somewhat defines a sorta standard for kata.  Are you the best judge of that?  Are your conclusions the actual, realistic conclusion?

That's the point of my Shotokan 2015 kumite exhange.  Both contestants are not just doing physical stuff.  I'll through a nice looking punch and you through one, see what happens.  No. More is going on.  Decisions have to be made.  Cognitive skills come into play.  Not just some "drill."  Not some physical rehearsal you speak of for kata & 1 steps.



gpseymour said:


> They aren't fundamental to the art (they didn't exist until a short time ago). I don't use them or teach them for mental discipline - that comes through the rigor of classes, of going when you don't want to, etc. And there's really nothing spiritual in them, at all.



Of course not.  Because you have created a presumption based on your own thinking which set that presumption.  And what you do, your "kata." doesn't qualify as traditional karate kata or 1-steps.



gpseymour said:


> And all of that applies to the short forms (similar to what most folks call one-steps) that have existed in the art since its inception.



As above.    Simon recounts in his tournament, how the opponents caught him off guard.  Caused Simon to do a lot of flinching.  Depart from good technique.  The second opponent surprised him by becoming aggressive and bulldozing into him.  How did Shiina conduct herself in her tournament? Proper traditional karate practice addresses these deficits not by us just doing physical stuff... but by ascending above & beyond that.  That's my opinion.  That is also stated in all traditional karate manuals and curriculum's and explicitly set down by the karate masters.  Through study and training, I found same to be true.  That's were I came out.

I've adjusted or changed some of the forms of the kata I practice.  On balance, however, never stray from the underlying principles upon which they are based.  My adjustments or some ancillary changes I've personally made aren't critical or fundamental to the overall success of kata training... to add.  Some tailoring in certain, limited circumstances.  The overall exercise of kata, I've left intact.  Same with 1-steps.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know that kata can be direct application to kumite. It has some strong benefits when used well (including when used ways I do not use it), but I don't know that development of skill to transition to kumite is its strongest point.



And you have a lot of company.  I'm among a minority for sure.




gpseymour said:


> Practice and observation of live use. I don't think kata can develop that. I'm honestly not sure if that's what you're implying or not.


  Kata alone can make one a superior fighter.  Not practical for everyone.  Is limited by no feed back of pressure testing.  Having an actual opponent to train against / with. 

Interesting enough in my area, the style(s) those that most often agree with me are the kung fu stylists.  And these are the ones I as a group can't defeat in sparring.  Instructor wise, the better students.  To make a point, one kung fu instructor stated that one of his cohorts spend all of his time practicing one form... and go it down pat.  Cleaned up at tournaments time after time.  I believe him based upon what I've have witnessed.



gpseymour said:


> My understanding of what kiai does goes well beyond that. I don't know what the purpose of hers is.


  We hold common ground here.  Yet you will see karate instructors state time after time that the kiai's objectives are to give yourself confidence.  To startle the opponent, the later I have seen happen. Only an ancillary impact in my book.  These instructors THINK they have the answer.  I looked to the teachings of the masters... across karate curriculum's including outside my style to help educate myself.




gpseymour said:


> I'd say in part it is. That gets refined over time, but it is probably a foundational principle that was started as a beginner, and is a physical skill. It was probably reinforced a lot in sparring.



This is what we have to figure out.  our karate job.



gpseymour said:


> I agree. I'm not sure the re-chambering is at all necessary. I can hit about 95% as hard without rechambering as I do if I rechamber. Though someone who studies this method more deeply might find a bit more reward for that opening they leave.



So if the chambering isn't necessary, why does Shiina do so?  For fun.  'Cause her coach said so?  Boxer's Muay Thai are reputed to hit harder, with more physical force than karate.  Is karate trying to do that?  Is karate trying to maximize physical force?  Does karate physical form generate from the same kind of body mechanics boxing and Muay Thai employ?  Does karate draw upon different body mechanics on certain ways?  Why?



gpseymour said:


> *I don't see traditional arts as more comprehensively "together" than the non-traditional material I've tinkered with.* That might be a difference in viewpoint I can't share, not having come through a traditional Karate program (my experience in Karate wasn't deeply traditional), and the approach in NGA is probably significantly different, though it can be as traditionally based.



I saw that coming.  So there is our divide.  And it's a common, perpetual one.  We see this with the sporting mentality of MMA.  Karate has low, fixed stances.  Boxers have more practical, natural stances and active footwork.  Better for defense in real fighting, boxing is.  And on, and on.

I just put this up as food for thought.  No doubts you are effective at your style.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> You are assuming traditional kata is for kumite. The general belief I've found about kata is that it's for civilian self defence not kumite.



On the one hand, I can agree.  Traditional karate though, isn't trying to make one a self defense expert.  Traditional karate is trying to establish a base of skills which then enable one to follow through in those areas with above-average strengths.  I don't agree with putting traditional karate in a box for civilian self defense only.

_


Tez3 said:



			The applications of kata have their limits and one must come to understand this.
		
Click to expand...

_
True enough.  But so does any discipline.  You have to start somewhere.  Learning to escape from a wrist grap is a start.  The better answer though is that kata is not defined by it's applications, but the principle embodied in them.  Moreover, by the fundamental human skills developed through kata, sans applications.  In the latter sense, kata is unlimited in it's potential and it is the applications which are constrained to a specify technical usage only.

_


Tez3 said:



			You are assuming traditional kata is for kumite. The general belief I've found The techniques of kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter, in an arena or on the battlefield.
		
Click to expand...

_
Ah no.  Silly. An absolute exclusionary mindset.  I do agree with you that kata applications aren't the world or specialized for theoretical or hypothetical situations of al kind.  Again, kinda commons sense.  Don't know how someone professionally fighting is going to uniformly defeat top karate style fighters.  Don't get that. Why?




Tez3 said:


> They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behavior.


  Sure.  And again, the traditional karate curriculum answers the question of self defense by starting out with addressing common situations.  Goes from there.  The principles of what to do thought carry on to more complicated situations technically.  There's a progression.




Tez3 said:


> You are assuming traditional kata is for kumite. The general belief I've found about kata is that it's for civilian self defence not kumite.



On the one hand, I can agree.  Traditional karate though, isn't trying to make one a self defense expert.  Traditional karate is trying to establish a base of skills which then enable one to follow through in those areas with above-average strengths.  I don't agree with putting traditional karate in a box for civilian self defense only.

Kata is kumite, by the Okinawan masters historically.  I think I know why. You think otherwise.  Shotokan evolved in Japan to include the three pillars of technical karate training.  Kihon, kata, kumite, and so in principle the traditional karate curriculum addresses your concern.

_


Tez3 said:



			The applications of kata have their limits and one must come to understand this.
		
Click to expand...

_
True enough.  But so does any discipline.  You have to start somewhere.  Learning to escape from a wrist grab is a start.  The better answer though is that kata is not defined by it's applications, but the principle embodied by them.  Moreover, by the fundamental human skills developed through kata, sans applications.  In the latter sense, kata is unlimited in it's potential and it is the particular interpretation of applications which are constrained to a specify technical usage only.

_You are assuming traditional kata is for kumite. The general belief I've found The techniques of kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter, in an arena or on the battlefield.[/quote]
_
Ah no.  Silly. An absolute exclusionary mindset.  I do agree with you that kata applications aren't the world or specialized for theoretical or hypothetical situations of any & all l kind.  Warfare on a battle field is an extreme level of conflict.  Again, kinda commons sense.  Don't know how someone professionally fighting is going to uniformly defeat top karate style fighters.  Don't get that.




Tez3 said:


> In spite of a street encounter never being the same, the principles of the kata never vary. One must know how they are applied and how to bend with the winds of adversity.  Choki Motobu



Okay. But what you believe Choki Motobu means and what I believe he means have some big divide. I agree with him and you agree with him, we disagree.



Tez3 said:


> For kumite one trains kumite, I would have thought obviously. For kata use Bunkai.



Yeah, this is very often the conventional practice.  Certainly what boxing does.  Traditional karate in it's pure form rejects and  rejected what you conclude.  You view kata as some discrete exercise aimed at specific and specialized objectives.  I look at kata in a broader context with the same qualities as kumite or kihon, by traditional martial arts principles. I will agree that your approach is sound, does work, despite my position.  Mine works too.  Mines better, assuming one can latch onto theory. Where I came out.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> IMHO, your kata are how you practice your kata.  Kata itself, is defined by the traditional martial arts system of training and what it's trying to accomplish.  If you want to make a change to suit your personal objectives that's fine.  But it may no longer qualify as "kata."


"Kata" is just a word. Loosely translated, as I understand it, it means "form" or "pattern". How it is used does, in fact, define what it means. If someone in the future uses my kata in a different way, that's fine...so long as they don't assume they know what I intended it for. If they do that, they'd have to come back to my same usage, or they're missing the intention.



> Again, I acknowledged this common sense fact, literally speaking.  The traditional martial arts, here karate, purpose and effect of kata is, however, what defines it.  You find kata somewhat meditative.  I can say that too.  Yet is our personal knowledge of kata or our understanding personally what defines kata?  Kata sets a standard for us to aspire to, and attempt to achieve.  You've decided that your meditative, somewhat defines a sorta standard for kata.  Are you the best judge of that?  Are your conclusions the actual, realistic conclusion?


Actually, my point was that my kata doesn't set a standard. Nor does any other. Not all kata is the same.



> That's the point of my Shotokan 2015 kumite exhange.  Both contestants are not just doing physical stuff.  I'll through a nice looking punch and you through one, see what happens.  No. More is going on.  Decisions have to be made.  Cognitive skills come into play.  Not just some "drill."  Not some physical rehearsal you speak of for kata & 1 steps.


I never said kata was about physical rehearsal. In fact, I don't like for my students to use the kata as its own purpose - practicing kata to get the kata right. It's a conditioning exercise. You can use it to work endurance (work them with effort, at some speed). You can use them to warm up before class. You can use them to work balance and core muscles (slower weight shifts). You can use the to work transitions, and so on. They are expressly not meant for practicing the exact movements, but to approximate them for examination (by the student, not an external source). The weight shifts in a throw in kata will never be correct, because there's no off-setting weight from uke. A similar problem occurs with all strikes and blocks, so kata really can't be about the memorization of the exact movements.



> Of course not.  Because you have created a presumption based on your own thinking which set that presumption.  And what you do, your "kata." doesn't qualify as traditional karate kata or 1-steps.


You've misunderstood my point. My point wasn't that all kata are like mine. My point was that we cannot assume all kata are _anything_. There are differences, and unless we're trained in the specific kata, we can't know what those are. My kata will be "traditional" if my style survives long enough. I don't for a moment believe every person who ever created what we now know as "traditional" kata had the same purpose and approach.



> As above.    Simon recounts in his tournament, how the opponents caught him off guard.  Caused Simon to do a lot of flinching.  Depart from good technique.  The second opponent surprised him by becoming aggressive and bulldozing into him.  How did Shiina conduct herself in her tournament? Proper traditional karate practice addresses these deficits not by us just doing physical stuff... but by ascending above & beyond that.  That's my opinion.  That is also stated in all traditional karate manuals and curriculum's and explicitly set down by the karate masters.  Through study and training, I found same to be true.  That's were I came out.


I doubt kata can defeat the flinch reflex, unless sparring/kumite is also used. We see this a lot when someone from TMA without any sparring takes a challenge fight from someone who spars or fights regularly.



> I've adjusted or changed some of the forms of the kata I practice.  On balance, however, never stray from the underlying principles upon which they are based.  My adjustments or some ancillary changes I've personally made aren't critical or fundamental to the overall success of kata training... to add.  Some tailoring in certain, limited circumstances.  The overall exercise of kata, I've left intact.  Same with 1-steps.


If it's working, there's not much need to change it. I introduced long-form kata for my students for specific purposes. The short forms (one-steps) I've changed where I wanted to teach a different set of physical principles, or change the order the student encounters them. I have no issue with changes to material. I can say with high confidence that none of the styles in existence are perfect, and if their founders were here, they'd still be making adjustments as they saw fit.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> So if the chambering isn't necessary, why does Shiina do so?  For fun.  'Cause her coach said so?  Boxer's Muay Thai are reputed to hit harder, with more physical force than karate.  Is karate trying to do that?  Is karate trying to maximize physical force?  Does karate physical form generate from the same kind of body mechanics boxing and Muay Thai employ?  Does karate draw upon different body mechanics on certain ways?  Why?



I am not a Shotokan practitioner but from a Kyokushin perspective, 'chambering' or bringing your opposite hand back in 'hikete' brings back the hip.  Putting your  hip/body/grounded stance behind a punch makes it more effective, all things being equal.   In other words it allows for rotational forces to be used in the strike.  

Muay Thai fighters and boxers hit harder because they use gloves and have their wrists taped.   Kyokushin fighters that practice kudo and have the same hand protection can hit just as hard, all things being equal.  

Most Kyokushin knockdown fighters try and maximize physical force but the mechanics are slightly different because the game is different.  Kyokushin adopted low kicks from Muay Thai as they are essentially effective techniques.    Kyokushin did not adopt the 'teep' because we do not fight in a ring with ropes.  Pushing our opponent away means we have to spend energy chasing them.  

I am not a Shotokan practitioner but I can clearly see that Shiina scored a clean jodan tsuki for a Shotokan tournament.  I would have awarded the point too given instructions on what constitutes a point in the match.   I do see a lot of functional issues that would cause me to think that the punch itself (technique) would only be suitable in a Shotokan tournament situation.  If she tried to do that exact same movement in a SD situation it would not be effective at all.  The major issue I see when I look at that punch is that she is moving backwards AND in the air when she lands the punch.   Although she clearly won the point, I do not believe the punch itself would not work in any other situation other than a Shotokan tournament (ie:  knock someone out).


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> I am not a Shotokan practitioner but from a Kyokushin perspective, 'chambering' or bringing your opposite hand back in 'hikete' brings back the hip.  Putting your  hip/body/grounded stance behind a punch makes it more effective, all things being equal.   In other words it allows for rotational forces to be used in the strike.[/qoute]
> 
> Along those lines of karate physical body mechanics, YES.
> 
> ...



Not me, in principle.



Yokazuna514 said:


> If she tried to do that exact same movement in a SD situation it would not be effective at all.


  That's certainly a question. Because Shotokan kumite is _controlled contact_ (I beleive), we can't conclude from the video, by the effect on the opponent.  Since the latter is still functioning.

Here's the thing with point fighting.  If one is literally getting your body to punch into thine air or touch a pillow.  Then point fighting is ineffective for actual physically strong conflict.  The latter, however, is what numbskulls do and IS NOT karate.



Yokazuna514 said:


> The major issue I see when I look at that punch is that she is moving backwards AND in the air when she lands the punch.   Although she clearly won the point, I do not believe the punch itself would not work in any other situation other than a Shotokan tournament (ie:  knock someone out).



Yes, that is a controversial area.  The kumite formal rule set rewards 1st & fastest (and proper form).  So you see speed given the greatest emphasis in performance as a raw physical skill.  Yet the countervailing view is several fold.

The strength that karate tradition develops is contained internally, is created internally, as well as from the physical stances from which Shiina launched.  All of that together creates a strength which then can execute with power from the movement she makes and the action she takes.  I alluded to this dynamic earlier.

Moreover, this then comes to involve spiritual or internal energy as an additive strength.  The body mechanics of traditional karate are complex... and generate strength from movement other than a planted power shot.  It's not a planted stance power switch on, transition power off dynamic.  The way body momentum plays in also incorporates some factor.  Shiina;s moveing back yet twisting and turning her body into the punch.. the backward move may thusly add power.

Traditional karate, it's execution of principles, is complex.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> "Kata" is just a word. Loosely translated, as I understand it, it means "form" or "pattern". How it is used does, in fact, define what it means. If someone in the future uses my kata in a different way, that's fine...so long as they don't assume they know what I intended it for. If they do that, they'd have to come back to my same usage, or they're missing the intention.



Right.  Kata is not a "word."  It's a concept.  The definition as pattern or form is a literal one.  Begs what form or pattern meaning. A physical tracing?  You use kata your way.  So what is a "pattern" descibe?  Specifically?




gpseymour said:


> Actually, my point was that my kata doesn't set a standard. Nor does any other. Not all kata is the same.



Our divide.




gpseymour said:


> I never said kata was about physical rehearsal. In fact, I don't like for my students to use the kata as its own purpose - practicing kata to get the kata right. It's a conditioning exercise. You can use it to work endurance (work them with effort, at some speed). You can use them to warm up before class. You can use them to work balance and core muscles (slower weight shifts). You can use the to work transitions, and so on. They are expressly not meant for practicing the exact movements, but to approximate them for examination (by the student, not an external source). The weight shifts in a throw in kata will never be correct, because there's no off-setting weight from uke. A similar problem occurs with all strikes and blocks, so kata really can't be about the memorization of the exact movements.



Agreed on the rehearsal.  The worse interpretation of kata, makes it useless for martial arts.

Conditioning physically I agree.  We differ on the workings though in certain ways.  Transitions agree.

Kata are not meant for practicing exact movements, disagree.  I think we are confusing actual application where we may be forced out of perfect form.  Application always requires adjustments to variable circumstances.  Where we are the same is perhaps we agree one doesn't go out and replicated a form absent the specific circumstances posed by the opponent.

The mental discipline side is where we have this departure.  Your last sentence is precisely why traditional karate becomes (can become) so effective, including over boxing and Muay Thai.  Your stumbling block with mental discipline is "memorization."  Mental discipline doesn't involve memorization, it involves the mental strength of actualization, based upon building up the thinking process and putting that conscious strength into the physical moments.  These mental qualities are also spelled out in traditional karate manuals and in the curriculum and by the karate masters.

In becoming accomplished in kata, we are not memorizing moves (at the outset sure to learn how to do the form), we are developing a strong mind over a conditioned body... the capability for deliberate action according the the principles embodied in the kata and it's applications.  Kata at it's root, is a mental exercise, not a physical one.  Karate karae Kata is driven mentally, expressed in physical movement and technique.




gpseymour said:


> You've misunderstood my point. My point wasn't that all kata are like mine. My point was that we cannot assume all kata are _anything_. There are differences, and unless we're trained in the specific kata, we can't know what those are. My kata will be "traditional" if my style survives long enough. I don't for a moment believe every person who ever created what we now know as "traditional" kata had the same purpose and approach.



No, I got your point.  No mis-understanding.  "Kata is fundamentally something."  See my rant for details.  Traditional karate has fundamental standards & principles which give rise to it's effect and these are embodied in kata, kata training.

We just see, or have interpreted kata differently on a very fundamental basis.  If it helps, I feel you are being too "technical," too focused about kata's technical, physical form.




gpseymour said:


> I doubt kata can defeat the flinch reflex, unless sparring/kumite is also used. We see this a lot when someone from TMA without any sparring takes a challenge fight from someone who spars or fights regularly.



You have proven my thesis (unwittingly).  Kata practice is the ultimate way in which to defeat the flinch or any other reactive mind set. 

It's made plain when you describe kata as a way for "warming up."  We can warm up by stretching.  Doing some jumping jacks.  Light run around the gym.  No mental content.

We see this alot, the TMA sink because just as I stated earlier above, I'm in the minority of karate practitioners.  All these TMA failures against challenge fights arise from training the curriculum as if it is physical endeavor.  So hence, they are mentally unprepared for the mental challenges of actual conflict.  See it in the dojo all the time too.

One can learn a kata, physically perform the kata, do the physical techniques iN the kata, examine bunkai of the kata,  and that IS NOT KATA.  Kata is getting the mind and body to work together in a highly mentally disciplined way.  That's it.  Once one becomes accomplished at kata, one doesn't react strictly speaking.  One acts deliberately, with the coordinated, whole body strength developed the way karate develops it.

Is this perhaps what Shiina demonstrated in her win?  Instantaneously rockets that reverse punch into the aggressor precisely on target, BANG;! the opponent's head snaps back, in th shock & trauma the concentration is lost, her aggression shut down.

This is my traditional karate proposition.



gpseymour said:


> If it's working, there's not much need to change it. I introduced long-form kata for my students for specific purposes. The short forms (one-steps) I've changed where I wanted to teach a different set of physical principles, or change the order the student encounters them. I have no issue with changes to material. I can say with high confidence that none of the styles in existence are perfect, and if their founders were here, they'd still be making adjustments as they saw fit.



At the end of the day, all that matters in actual conflict, is that it works.  Agreed 1000%.  How we get there will always be a difference of method and opinion.

A spirited discourse like this is what keeps us growing, even if it's re-examine and re-training our particular, individual styles & approach.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Here's the thing with point fighting.  If one is literally getting your body to punch into thine air or touch a pillow.  Then point fighting is ineffective for actual physically strong conflict.  The latter, however, is what numbskulls do and IS NOT karate.



Huh ?   I'm ok with controlled contact.  It takes a good degree of skill to control your strikes especially when your opponents are your dojo mates and you are sparring in the dojo.  Not sure if this is solely a point fighting concern.



ShotoNoob said:


> Moreover, this then comes to involve spiritual or internal energy as an additive strength. The body mechanics of traditional karate are complex... and generate strength from movement other than a planted power shot. It's not a planted stance power switch on, transition power off dynamic. The way body momentum plays in also incorporates some factor. Shiina;s moveing back yet twisting and turning her body into the punch.. the backward move may thusly add power.



Respectfully, I think this part of your explanation defies physical laws.  I agree Shiina's movement uses some rotational movement to generate power but the majority of the power is also negated by her backward movement and having both feet in the air at the moment of the strike.   We don't have to look any further than Newton's laws to see her strike would not be effective out of this scenario.   Also, being about a buck twenty I seriously doubt she can generate any significant power even with the hikete.  If there is a way to generate any significant power this way, please let me know.  I would be happy to try it out.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Huh ?   I'm ok with controlled contact.  It takes a good degree of skill to control your strikes especially when your opponents are your dojo mates and you are sparring in the dojo.  Not sure if this is solely a point fighting concern.



Okay.  On the point fighting, I didn't say it was a sole concern martial principle wise, I said it was a specific requirement of the rule set.



Yokazuna514 said:


> Respectfully, I think this part of your explanation defies physical laws.  I agree Shiina's movement uses some rotational movement to generate power but the majority of the power is also negated by her backward movement and having both feet in the air at the moment of the strike.   We don't have to look any further than Newton's laws to see her strike would not be effective out of this scenario.



Well, I agreed in part and attempted to explain that.  And counter-pointed and attempted to explain that.   Over  a forum / computer screen we are kinda limited.  I will say her _controlled_ strike had quite a dramatic physical & mental impact on her aggressor / opponent.



Yokazuna514 said:


> Also, being about a buck twenty I seriously doubt she can generate any significant power even with the hikete.  If there is a way to generate any significant power this way, please let me know.  I would be happy to try it out.



The chamber or hikete as you termed it, this has been another ongoing debate.  I believe I understand how it works and that's not adequately captured by the physical move taken in isolation.  More on the entire body, mind and later spirit.  Some of the trouble practitioners have with gaining ground in karate or traditional marital arts is the attempt to focus on individual technical parts without considering the greater whole, and integrating that.

My post line about the meaning or purpose of Kiai, was meant to illustrate that limitation in thinking.  You can go on you tube right know and find black belts/ instructors of karate explaining the kiai is to build confidence.  And it well may be a confidence builder, create confidence.  The kiai "yell" may in fact startle or unsettled one's opponent. That is a legitimate occurrence, I'm sure.

But as acknowledged, there is a fundamental purpose of the kiai, and how it draws all the strengths of the person into one.  Actually at my current dojo, no instructor has ever explained the kiai's purpose to me, although I will say at the same time most everyone picks up what it's supposed to do.  We get it empirically.

If one needs an express kiai explanation, karate instructors / masters do explain, the explanation is in manuals, and it's specifically made part of the traditional karate curriculum's in a certain fashion that leads one to the meaning by implication.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

Kata has always been a problematic portion of the traditional martial arts curriculum.  For both practitioners and for those fighting stylists outside traditional martial arts.  The later largely critical and unsupportive.

Accessing the value of traditional martial arts is very challenging and not easy to see or understand.  These sophisticated concepts or principles I've talked about are typically not well explained or accordingly trained properly.  Hence the dissatisfaction of many with traditional martial arts experience.

Interestingly enough, the kung fu practitioners in my area are the most accepting group of martial arts stylists who come to understand the importance of kata.

I think the change made by the Shotokan style in Japan is the most pragmatic for most practitioners of traditional martial arts, because a specific kumite component including free sparring & kumite competition was placed in the curriculum.  With specific kumite training, many if not all of the concerns voiced here to me about kata, can then be addressed directly through the kumite training.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> The chamber or hikete as you termed it, this has been another ongoing debate.



Often the simplest answer is the correct one.    Hikete in kata as we use it in Kyokushin is to bring back the hip which allows us to bring our body into the punch instead of using just mass of the arms to punch.  It is akin to standing in place punching vs moving forward and punching.   The punch moving forward SHOULD be a more powerful strike in comparison, all things created equal.



ShotoNoob said:


> My post line about the meaning or purpose of Kiai, was meant to illustrate that limitation in thinking. You can go on you tube right know and find black belts/ instructors of karate explaining the kiai is to build confidence. And it well may be a confidence builder, create confidence. The kiai "yell" may in fact startle or unsettled one's opponent. That is a legitimate occurrence, I'm sure



Sadly, I will have to agree with you.   There are too many people on youtube explaining things that SEEM correct but have no real basis in practicality.  THAT is what casts a lot of shade on TMA.   Kiai may build confidence.   It may startle your opponent.   However, kiai is more like a focal point to release your breath (and tighten all the muscles) at the point of impact.   In Kyokushin we can kiai when we get hit or when we hit.  The function is the same.   We exhale quickly to tighten our muscles (clearing the air from our lungs) and either brace for an impact or to deliver a significant strike    Boxers do the same when they breath out sharply.  

There is a simple test to see the difference.  Try punching holding your breath or while inhaling.  It should be very different than when you punch exhaling.  That is how I see the function of a 'kiai'.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Kata are not meant for practicing exact movements, disagree. I think we are confusing actual application where we may be forced out of perfect form.


I don't have time to reply to the whole post, but this sentence gets to the core of one of my points. "Perfect form" does not exist absent the opposite side. A "perfect punch" without a target to strike is different from a "perfect punch" to even a static target. The difference is far more extreme for grappling and even kicks. So, what we might refer to as "perfect form" in a kata is imperfect as soon as you add the other side, even if that other side is static. The easiest way to see this is to look at a basic hip throw. The ideal, perfect version of this cannot be done properly without the weight and counter-balance of someone to throw. And I cannot get close to the proper movement without a partner, unless I shift to create my own counter-balance. So, if that technique is in a kata, it cannot be the proper movement for the actual throw. Even the Classical versions of grappling techniques (the forms) can only be approximations of a proper throw, if they start from a static position (which the nearly always do). So, the form can only focus on principles, and can present the ideal place to practice and examine certain principles, but the actual technique will differ in substantial ways when removed from the form. Since the form isn't the purpose, the version required for the form can't really be the ideal version of the technique, in my opinion.

That's all from the standpoint of someone who learned a fairly traditional Japanese (primarily) grappling art. I suspect there's a difference in approach from what you've learned. That creates a different viewpoint.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I don't have time to reply to the whole post, but this sentence gets to the core of one of my points. "Perfect form" does not exist absent the opposite side. A "perfect punch" without a target to strike is different from a "perfect punch" to even a static target. The difference is far more extreme for grappling and even kicks. So, what we might refer to as "perfect form" in a kata is imperfect as soon as you add the other side, even if that other side is static. The easiest way to see this is to look at a basic hip throw. The ideal, perfect version of this cannot be done properly without the weight and counter-balance of someone to throw. And I cannot get close to the proper movement without a partner, unless I shift to create my own counter-balance. So, if that technique is in a kata, it cannot be the proper movement for the actual throw. Even the Classical versions of grappling techniques (the forms) can only be approximations of a proper throw, if they start from a static position (which the nearly always do). So, the form can only focus on principles, and can present the ideal place to practice and examine certain principles, but the actual technique will differ in substantial ways when removed from the form. Since the form isn't the purpose, the version required for the form can't really be the ideal version of the technique, in my opinion.
> 
> That's all from the standpoint of someone who learned a fairly traditional Japanese (primarily) grappling art. I suspect there's a difference in approach from what you've learned. That creates a different viewpoint.



I've got to go too.  We have common ground.  There's always some semantical loss typing text into a forum.

Also some of our divide can only really be handled in person demonstration.  We are addressing the same issue in application with a differing approach, and this is problematic to do over the internet.

To be brief, I agree with the whole concept of pressure testing and in the value of actual sparring or fighting.  My emphasis though is on kata.

Get back later.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> "Perfect form" does not exist absent the opposite side.



I'm sorry but this is not a correct.   Kata is the search for the perfect movements or at least it is from a karate perspective.   We don't train kata to 'consider' the opposite side.  Bunkai is what we use to analyze the movements and attempt consider an opposite side (in some instances) but this is definitely not the the job for kata, in my book.  

We also train kata to hone the 'perfect punch' but it is in the sense of gross concepts.   Different kata teach different punches and it allows students to follow a pattern of movement to help them understand not only the names of the punches but the sequence that should be followed to make a punch successful (the coordination of the punch).  It's like a shorthand an instructor can give that will tell students quickly and efficiently, what series of movements we are going to be working on.  

Kyokushin is not typically known for being kata centred but we practice katas regularly at our dojo.  Our dojo also produces a fair number of good semi-knockdown and knockdown fighters (which Kyokushin is more known for) but we prefer to believe that our karate is stronger (and more long term sustainable) if we build the foundation with the three K's (kata, kihon and kumite).


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Often the simplest answer is the correct one.    Hikete in kata as we use it in Kyokushin is to bring back the hip which allows us to bring our body into the punch instead of using just mass of the arms to punch.  It is akin to standing in place punching vs moving forward and punching.   The punch moving forward SHOULD be a more powerful strike in comparison, all things created equal.



Concurring I am.  Arm punching is one of the biggest sins of MMA striker.  And crummy karate kumite.  Although boxing has differences, if one reviews the proper body mechanics for a boxing punch, its' quite intricate and coordinated with the body, always



Yokazuna514 said:


> Sadly, I will have to agree with you.   There are too many people on youtube explaining things that SEEM correct but have no real basis in practicality.  THAT is what casts a lot of shade on TMA.   Kiai may build confidence.   It may startle your opponent.   However, kiai is more like a focal point to release your breath (and tighten all the muscles) at the point of impact.   In Kyokushin we can kiai when we get hit or when we hit.  The function is the same.   We exhale quickly to tighten our muscles (clearing the air from our lungs) and either brace for an impact or to deliver a significant strike    Boxers do the same when they breath out sharply.



I've been fortnate in my area.  Most of the karate instructors are good,  There's a lot many don't know and theres' a lot they do know.  Always heading in the direction by-in-large which in turns has pointed me in the right direction, as a general rule.



Yokazuna514 said:


> There is a simple test to see the difference.  Try punching holding your breath or while inhaling.  It should be very different than when you punch exhaling.  That is how I see the function of a 'kiai'.



I haven't typically heard of karate practitioner kiai'ing for defensive impact.  Sounds okay, in principle.  Kyo as we all know ranks perhaps among 1st for being "outgoing."

The kiai has more than a physical muscular action, although the base explanation is just as you say.  A reading of the manuals, study of the curriculum will bear out the kiai is more than physical.

What makes karate confusing to learn is that the manuals and curriculum's have different ways of expressing karate principles, different emphasis to get at some of the more intangible concepts, the metaphysical.  As well as voluminous terminology & technical detail.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> I
> Kyokushin is not typically known for being kata centred but we practice katas regularly at our dojo.  Our dojo also produces a fair number of good semi-knockdown and knockdown fighters (which Kyokushin is more known for) but we prefer to believe that our karate is stronger (and more long term sustainable) if we build the foundation with the three K's (kata, kihon and kumite).



And this is where Shotokan ended up coming out - the 3 K's.  The brilliance in that was it made karate trained more rounded & practical for the masses.  Kept the reality testing element front & center.  Made traditional karate's appeal broad.

It is definitely a minority who want to march through kata all day long.  The variety in training regiment helps the karate practitioner concentrate better in the total skills learning.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> I'm sorry but this is not a correct.   Kata is the search for the perfect movements or at least it is from a karate perspective.   We don't train kata to 'consider' the opposite side.  Bunkai is what we use to analyze the movements and attempt consider an opposite side (in some instances) but this is definitely not the the job for kata, in my book.
> 
> We also train kata to hone the 'perfect punch' but it is in the sense of gross concepts.   Different kata teach different punches and it allows students to follow a pattern of movement to help them understand not only the names of the punches but the sequence that should be followed to make a punch successful (the coordination of the punch).  It's like a shorthand an instructor can give that will tell students quickly and efficiently, what series of movements we are going to be working on.
> 
> Kyokushin is not typically known for being kata centred but we practice katas regularly at our dojo.  Our dojo also produces a fair number of good semi-knockdown and knockdown fighters (which Kyokushin is more known for) but we prefer to believe that our karate is stronger (and more long term sustainable) if we build the foundation with the three K's (kata, kihon and kumite).


Perhaps I didn't make my point clear. I'm starting from the premise that the objective - the physical purpose of training - is the application of technique in some context. If I'm trying to develop my punch for any actual use, the one found in any form will always be at best an approximation, because it lacks the ability to finish against a target. That changes body mechanics in ways that can be subtle (except at the end of the punch), but matter. The only way in which I can imagine the punch in a kata being the ideal is if my purpose is to develop my skill at kata. And that's not actually martial training at that point.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> I haven't typically heard of karate practitioner kiai'ing for defensive impact. Sounds okay, in principle. Kyo as we all know ranks perhaps among 1st for being "outgoing."
> 
> The kiai has more than a physical muscular action, although the base explanation is just as you say. A reading of the manuals, study of the curriculum will bear out the kiai is more than physical.



Not sure what you mean by 'outgoing'.   We use it defensively as a way to clear the lungs quickly and tighten the abdomen.   

I don't know for certain if the 'kiai' is more than physical muscular action.   I have never seen any evidence to say it does anything more than clear the lungs of air and tighten muscles to focus power.  I start to join the crowd of skeptics when I hear anyone saying that it does anything more than than the physical nature of the action.  If that was true, I think we would see it borne out in other MA.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Perhaps I didn't make my point clear. I'm starting from the premise that the objective - the physical purpose of training - is the application of technique in some context. If I'm trying to develop my punch for any actual use, the one found in any form will always be at best an approximation, because it lacks the ability to finish against a target. That changes body mechanics in ways that can be subtle (except at the end of the punch), but matter. The only way in which I can imagine the punch in a kata being the ideal is if my purpose is to develop my skill at kata. And that's not actually martial training at that point.



Not to be argumentative but I think your point was clear.  I just don't think we agree on the premise.   Punching in kata will not teach you to punch in the cage.   Continuous free flow fighting is very different from kata however kata can teach the sequence of events that have to occur for you to have a successful punch.   It is up to the practitioner to take the knowledge that can be gained through the practice of kata and apply it to their kumite.   Kata is a tool, nothing more.  How you use that tool will demonstrate if you are a craftsman or a DIYer.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> And this is where Shotokan ended up coming out - the 3 K's. The brilliance in that was it made karate trained more rounded & practical for the masses. Kept the reality testing element front & center. Made traditional karate's appeal broad.



I think this is really debatable.  Karate in general is no longer as popular as MMA.   MMA is concerned with training and concepts that are practical in a sport setting.  The truth of the technique can be found in if it works on an actual non-compliant opponent.   TMA has gotten a bad rap because there is very little auditing in this regard.   The rampant growth of McDojo's is also does not help.   Finally, we ourselves can add to this issue if we don't look at what we do from a pragmatic standpoint and stop propagating esoteric concepts that have no basis in practicality.    

.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Not to be argumentative but I think your point was clear.  I just don't think we agree on the premise.   Punching in kata will not teach you to punch in the cage.   Continuous free flow fighting is very different from kata however kata can teach the sequence of events that have to occur for you to have a successful punch.   It is up to the practitioner to take the knowledge that can be gained through the practice of kata and apply it to their kumite.   Kata is a tool, nothing more.  How you use that tool will demonstrate if you are a craftsman or a DIYer.


None of that is contrary to my point, so we may simply be talking at cross purposes. My original point (in the post you quoted, the part I thought you were replying to) was that kata isn't the ideal version of a technique, because it has to make accommodations for the lack of a target/partner. I've had a similar discussion with folks within my own art about the limitations of Classical form, because ours are from a static start, which also requires accommodations that take us away from ideal technique.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> kata isn't the ideal version of a technique


Ok, this is where we differ.   Kata is the search for doing the ideal of the technique.  If we are talking about punching, kata will teach you the level of punch, the name of the punch and the sequence to use to perform the punch properly.   Kata allows you to practice the sequence without the fear of hurting someone or yourself.  

Adding a target or a partner changes the tool so in a sense it is no longer doing kata in the classical sense.  If becomes something else.  I've introduced pads at the end of some kata sequences to illustrate a point when dealing with a student who is not using the proper sequence (eg:  punching before they move).  The reaction of the pad (and the student) usually illustrates the difference between doing the technique properly and doing it improperly but it is not practical to do this over a large class.

Perhaps I need to understand what you mean when you say 'ideal' technique from the perspective of your art ?


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## pgsmith (Oct 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I like all of it except the last part. I don’t see dancing as contrary to depth of development, even if the dancing is formed from what used to be a martial practice. So I don’t think the performance art aspect undermines the rest.


  I agree. The Araki Mujinsai ryu is a koryu sword school that's been in existence for hundreds of years. They also practice sword dancing, called kenbu. Since the school has been passed down for quite a long time without dying out, it doesn't seem to have undermined their sword arts any. There are other sword schools that also do kenbu, so it isn't a lone instance.



ShotoNoob said:


> Right. Kata is not a "word." It's a concept. The definition as pattern or form is a literal one. Begs what form or pattern meaning. A physical tracing? You use kata your way. So what is a "pattern" descibe? Specifically?


 *To you and your practice only.* So many westerners insist on trying to apply narrow definitions onto Japanese concepts, and it just doesn't work that way. Kata is very much a word and, like most Japanese words, can vary in definition depending upon where and by whom it is used. So, what you say may be perfectly valid _within your training_. That doesn't make it so within the context of someone else's training.



Yokazuna514 said:


> Ok, this is where we differ. Kata is the search for doing the ideal of the technique. If we are talking about punching, kata will teach you the level of punch, the name of the punch and the sequence to use to perform the punch properly. Kata allows you to practice the sequence without the fear of hurting someone or yourself.


 *To you and your practice only.*  Please see the response above this one so I don't have to repeat the entire thing.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> To you and your practice only.


So your point is that everyone’s point is valid to them ?  Ok, thanks.


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## pgsmith (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> So your point is that everyone’s point is valid to them ? Ok, thanks.



  Truly fantastic reading comprehension there! 
  My point is you shouldn't be trying to tell other people what something should mean to them, you can only tell them what it means to you. However, you are entitled to your opinions, as wrong as they may be.

  Carry on.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> Truly fantastic reading comprehension there!
> My point is you shouldn't be trying to tell other people what something should mean to them, you can only tell them what it means to you. However, you are entitled to your opinions, as wrong as they may be.
> 
> Carry on.


Well we agree here.  Thanks, pot.

Sincerely,
The kettle


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 17, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> *To you and your practice only.* So many westerners insist on trying to apply narrow definitions onto Japanese concepts, and it just doesn't work that way. Kata is very much a word and, like most Japanese words, can vary in definition depending upon where and by whom it is used. So, what you say may be perfectly valid _within your training_. That doesn't make it so within the context of someone else's training.



I'd like to add that the Japanese do a terrific job at representing traditional karate and what it can achieve, to the world.  Westerners, however, notably Europeans rank among the top, best kumite competitors throughout the world.  So though the Japanese heavily promote their brand or image as traditional  karate's representative, anyone can achieve those standards & excel.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Ok, this is where we differ.   Kata is the search for doing the ideal of the technique.  If we are talking about punching, kata will teach you the level of punch, the name of the punch and the sequence to use to perform the punch properly.   Kata allows you to practice the sequence without the fear of hurting someone or yourself.
> 
> Adding a target or a partner changes the tool so in a sense it is no longer doing kata in the classical sense.  If becomes something else.  I've introduced pads at the end of some kata sequences to illustrate a point when dealing with a student who is not using the proper sequence (eg:  punching before they move).  The reaction of the pad (and the student) usually illustrates the difference between doing the technique properly and doing it improperly but it is not practical to do this over a large class.
> 
> Perhaps I need to understand what you mean when you say 'ideal' technique from the perspective of your art ?


My concept of ideal isn't limited to my art. If we are learning to punch, we are learning to deliver power to a target. There are some fundamental differences when the target isn't present. You are correct that adding a target makes it no longer "kata", and that's part of what I'm getting at. Kata can help develop ideal technique, but the technique in the kata cannot be the ideal version, because it has to be altered for that lack of target. If we were to try to develop an ideal punch to aspire to, we'd have to use a target. It might be a 25% punch (which solves the issue of potential injury), but the target being present allows us to fully express all the mechanics involved in delivering power to a target.

None of this is saying there's a flaw in kata - it's just an inherent limitation in the practice.


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## dvcochran (Oct 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think this is true, though only to a point. I can tell if a person is balanced and in control. I can tell if they're focusing well. But I can't judge their stances, because they aren't the stances I studied. I might not like the stance, but if it's the correct stance for that style, well, then it's correct and I won't know it. And there are many kata I've seen where I didn't like entire segments of the kata - probably because I had no idea what the point of the kata was. The same goes for some methods and styles of movement.
> 
> So, if I were judging kata, I'd only be able to judge on things like movement, flow (and even that's tricky, since some styles are more staccato by nature), balance, and control. So a good kata won't be terribly different from a great kata in my scoring, unless the great kata is changed to show off more balance and control, which starts to change the kata. So now the kata has been altered to appeal more to me (because I don't understand it), getting further from its original training purpose.
> 
> Mind you, I'm actually okay with that, so long as we agree it's becoming a performance art, rather than a training tool. I actually enjoy watching a good "flash" kata.


Performance art from who's perspective, yours? The competitor may have a completely different viewpoint. I have worked out in every TKD system I am aware of state side. It is remarkable how different, and in common most are. I find this true of the other style schools I have worked out at. A lot of my experience with specific styles is limited, training while traveling for work. But, for the most part, there are commonalities across styles. Even in TKD some schools kick high and some schools kick really high. Emphasis to the point that I sometimes ask why? Then I have to step back and try to find the "why" in other things they are doing and usually find there is some method to their madness. Typically, the people being pushed to the extremes, in kicks for example, are the ones with some naturally ability to do really high kicks. Usually this is done as a way to motivate and keep a person engaged and involved. If it is never taught where/how/when/why to kick (or punch or whatever) then the school or instructor(s) are doing a dis-service.
So when I judge a form or style I am not intimate with I try to evaluate the effectiveness of individual moves, not in a preconceived idea of how the move should be done but whether it would work. Then you start adding in the fundamentals like balance and timing, etc...


ShotoNoob said:


> And you have a lot of company.  I'm among a minority for sure.
> 
> 
> Kata alone can make one a superior fighter.  Not practical for everyone.  Is limited by no feed back of pressure testing.  Having an actual opponent to train against / with.
> ...



Kiai or kihap literally means "expulsion of air" If you don't breathe, you die.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Performance art from who's perspective, yours?



Well, clearly, since it was me posting that. 

Seriously, though, my point is that when we judge kata, people are going to start adjusting the kata for what the judges award. That means they're performing to the judges, rather than using the kata for its (assumed) original purpose. Again, I don't have a problem with that - we just need to be aware of the affect that can have on the kata. Those effects are not universally bad.



> The competitor may have a completely different viewpoint. I have worked out in every TKD system I am aware of state side. It is remarkable how different, and in common most are. I find this true of the other style schools I have worked out at. A lot of my experience with specific styles is limited, training while traveling for work. But, for the most part, there are commonalities across styles. Even in TKD some schools kick high and some schools kick really high. Emphasis to the point that I sometimes ask why? Then I have to step back and try to find the "why" in other things they are doing and usually find there is some method to their madness. Typically, the people being pushed to the extremes, in kicks for example, are the ones with some naturally ability to do really high kicks. Usually this is done as a way to motivate and keep a person engaged and involved. If it is never taught where/how/when/why to kick (or punch or whatever) then the school or instructor(s) are doing a dis-service.
> So when I judge a form or style I am not intimate with I try to evaluate the effectiveness of individual moves, not in a preconceived idea of how the move should be done but whether it would work. Then you start adding in the fundamentals like balance and timing, etc...


I was referring to wider differences than within TKD. If we look at TKD, Wado, Kyokushin, and maybe even throw in some CMA, we start to see differences that are fundamental. So, we get back to the differences in stance, timing, and flow. I really don't understand how someone can judge a style they don't know as well as they judge a style they do know. I suspect this sometimes goes in favor of the style they know (they see what they're looking for more often) and sometimes doesn't (they are better able to see the errors in their own style). And when performing to judges from different styles, competitors will be less constrained by the actual purpose of the kata (since it will be less-understood by some judges) and some of those who figure it out will adjust their kata to get better scores. Those adjustments are why I refer to it as performance art. And, again, I don't have a problem with using kata for that purpose - I'm not using it as a derogatory term, at all.


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2018)

The ultimate authority in Wado Ryu kata, if it's not done like this it is incorrect.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> The ultimate authority in Wado Ryu kata, if it's not done like this it is incorrect.


Serious question, because I don't get this, at all. Why is there ever a static point that's the ultimate authority? What if someone figures out a way to improve Wado a bit, and adjusts kata to build that principle?


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Serious question, because I don't get this, at all. Why is there ever a static point that's the ultimate authority? What if someone figures out a way to improve Wado a bit, and adjusts kata to build that principle?




This is the founder, he made Wado the way he wanted it. If you want to change it because you think you know better then don't call it Wado Ryu because it won't be.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> This is the founder, he made Wado the way he wanted it. If you want to change it because you think you know better the don't call it Wado Ryu because it won't be.


The people I know who started new styles aren't done with them when they start them. All of them continue to tweak and improve what they created. I suspect they will until they run out of time to do so. I don't believe any founder made something perfect, and building on what they created isn't departing from it (unless you change it a lot), but following their lead.


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The people I know who started new styles aren't done with them when they start them. All of them continue to tweak and improve what they created. I suspect they will until they run out of time to do so. I don't believe any founder made something perfect, and building on what they created isn't departing from it (unless you change it a lot), but following their lead.




The founder didn't make it perfect I'm sure but he did make it Wado Ryu. If someone tweaks it then it is no longer Wado Ryu but whatever they want to call it. If someone buys a Jaguar car then tinkers and tweaks it, changes the bodywork, and god forbid the engine they can no longer call it a Jaguar.
When a founder sets the standard it's a common standard, not perfect but a standard everyone understands, when people start messing with the kata, techniques etc then there is no longer a common standard and it cannot be judged fairly. One person may think putting an extra kick in is an improvement another thinks it's certainly not however with the founder's standards then you know where you are when judging which is after all what we are talking about on this thread.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> My concept of ideal isn't limited to my art. If we are learning to punch, we are learning to deliver power to a target. There are some fundamental differences when the target isn't present. You are correct that adding a target makes it no longer "kata", and that's part of what I'm getting at. Kata can help develop ideal technique, but the technique in the kata cannot be the ideal version, because it has to be altered for that lack of target. If we were to try to develop an ideal punch to aspire to, we'd have to use a target. It might be a 25% punch (which solves the issue of potential injury), but the target being present allows us to fully express all the mechanics involved in delivering power to a target.
> 
> None of this is saying there's a flaw in kata - it's just an inherent limitation in the practice.



One of the things I have found to be 'interesting' since I joined this board is that some people that post have a tendency to pick apart a post to try and make 'their' point.  I am not going to do that because frankly I don't think advances ANY discussion on a subject.   Instead, I am going to try and find some commonalities so I can understand where you are coming from and perhaps learn something valuable that will impact my own training.  

I think we both agree that learning and performing kata can be beneficial to someone's training if they understand how to use the tool.  You may prefer to introduce targets when you practice.  That is fine and there is nothing wrong with that if that helps you improve your training.   

We may disagree on what it 'ideal' technique is and how to pursue it but we are essentially after the same thing.   I will say, that from a Kyokushin perspective we do not always use targets to help us improve our punching (eg:  kata) but we use other tools (eg:  bear knuckle continuous sparring and tamashiwari) to assist us in finding an ideal punch but again, the punch we use for knockdown is different from the punch we use to break boards and things but only as an approach not in the coordination of the technique.  The coordination remains the same even if the striking surface and kinetic force used changes to accommodate the situation.  

I am a believer that the way you practice is the way you will perform so if you ALWAYS practice with little or no contact, it will be difficult to hit harder and not injure yourself, forget about your opponent.  Obviously we cannot spar at full intensity all the time in our training.  That is what pads and protectors help us accomplish  but even hitting pads will not show weakness in the technique that a board or harder surface will bring out (eg:  punching with open hands).    All to say, different tools for different situations to help us improve the way we perform our techniques across a wide range of situations.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> The founder didn't make it perfect I'm sure but he did make it Wado Ryu. If someone tweaks it then it is no longer Wado Ryu but whatever they want to call it. If someone buys a Jaguar car then tinkers and tweaks it, changes the bodywork, and god forbid the engine they can no longer call it a Jaguar.


That analogy is about major changes. I'm talking about evolution through minor changes. If someone puts a better set of fuel injectors in a Jaguar, it's still a Jaguar. In fact, it's entirely likely Jaguar will change what fuel injectors they use at some point if there's a set that improves performance in a way that fits their design aims.


> When a founder sets the standard it's a common standard, not perfect but a standard everyone understands, when people start messing with the kata, techniques etc then there is no longer a common standard and it cannot be judged fairly. One person may think putting an extra kick in is an improvement another thinks it's certainly not however with the founder's standards then you know where you are when judging which is after all what we are talking about on this thread.


If you're considering judging, then yes, it becomes a problem. But then, judging isn't the point of most MA training. If an instructor wants to emphasize a principle in Wado Ryu, and adjusts moves in the kata to help students practice that principle, I don't think that's a variation _from_ Wado Ryu, but a variation _within_ Wado Ryu. There is a point at which it becomes significant enough to be a different style - I'm not talking about changes that significant.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> One of the things I have found to be 'interesting' since I joined this board is that some people that post have a tendency to pick apart a post to try and make 'their' point.  I am not going to do that because frankly I don't think advances ANY discussion on a subject.   Instead, I am going to try and find some commonalities so I can understand where you are coming from and perhaps learn something valuable that will impact my own training.
> 
> I think we both agree that learning and performing kata can be beneficial to someone's training if they understand how to use the tool.  You may prefer to introduce targets when you practice.  That is fine and there is nothing wrong with that if that helps you improve your training.
> 
> ...


I think in this post you're saying the same thing I was. We're just saying it from different angles, so to speak.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 18, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Kiai or kihap literally means "expulsion of air" If you don't breathe, you die.



What I would do before I went on Youtube and posted an all-knowing video, would be to start with the direct instruction from the curriculum.  Below is just a sample of doing so.

The word *kihap* is commonly used to refer to the "shout" that taekwondo practioners use when performing various techniques. For this reason, the word *kihap* is commonly translated as shout or yell. Sometimes it is translated as spirited yell, which is a little closer to the literal *meaning*.
-Taekwondo Wiki

Again, we have a definition of TKD practitioners "shouting."  Shouting does not define kihap.  A kihap may be considered a shout in form of the type of sound one hears, this is merely talking about doing something in martial arts without meaning.

Traditional martial arts, it's success and effectiveness depends on the practitioner knowing why they do what they do, and doing so correctly for purpose.  Again why so called TMA persons moving to MMA get trounced; they are just regurgitating without meaning or purpose.  Then when pressed, come up with some explanation to justify themselves - not understanding the art.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think in this post you're saying the same thing I was. We're just saying it from different angles, so to speak.


Not really.  I still believe kata is the search for the perfect form.  That is the function of kata training, imho.  Adding aids and equipment does not typically fall under the concept of training kata.   I do not believe kata was ever meant to address that aspect of training.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Not really.  I still believe kata is the search for the perfect form.  That is the function of kata training, imho.  Adding aids and equipment does not typically fall under the concept of training kata.   I do not believe kata was ever meant to address that aspect of training.


Again, you're not saying anything I disagree with. I wasn't suggesting using targets in kata. I was talking about them as a separate thing.


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If you're considering judging, then yes, it becomes a problem.



*Of course I'm talking about judging because that is exactly what the thread is about!! 

*

I don't believe kata is the search for the 'perfect form' as karate was expressly for the purpose of civilian unarmed self defence. That people have turned into other things is no surprise but we shouldn't forget it's original purpose even if you don't use it for that.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> The ultimate authority in Wado Ryu kata, if it's not done like this it is incorrect.


Thank you for posting this video.   I have never been able to find a definitive source for Wado Ryu katas.  Would you have a video you can share that will demonstrate a proper Wado Ryu Jodan Uke ?


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Thank you for posting this video.   I have never been able to find a definitive source for Wado Ryu katas.  Would you have a video you can share that will demonstrate a proper Wado Ryu Jodan Uke ?





Pinan Shodan






Pinan Nidan


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Pinan Shodan
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you.  I visited a school where the Sensei was teaching Wado forms and they looked a little odd to me.  The jodan uke looked completely ineffective and now that I have seen your videos, I am certain this group has no real clue what they are doing.


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Thank you.  I visited a school where the Sensei was teaching Wado forms and they looked a little odd to me.  The jodan uke looked completely ineffective and now that I have seen your videos, I am certain this group has no real clue what they are doing.




The Jodan Uke is a little different from the way others do, I've always found it works quite nicely.  There's a little twist that gives it extra 'punch' and of course used as a forearm strike it's very good.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> The Jodan Uke is a little different from the way others do, I've always found it works quite nicely.  There's a little twist that gives it extra 'punch' and of course used as a forearm strike it's very good.


Little differences between styles is not a big deal to me.  I care about if it protects your head which your video confirms it is supposed to do.  

The technique I saw was completely useless for protecting your head and the explanation I received was it was Wado Ryu which I now can see was total malarkey.


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Little differences between styles is not a big deal to me.  I care about if it protects your head which your video confirms it is supposed to do.
> 
> The technique I saw was completely useless for protecting your head and the explanation I received was it was Wado Ryu which I now can see was total malarkey.



I can't imagine it not being able to protect your head so what you saw must be bad!


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I can't imagine it not being able to protect your head so what you saw must be bad!


Imagine a Jodan uke with your arm pretty much straight up.  I’m not a wado guy but that didn’t look right for any situation.  The fact he said it was supposed to be a Jodan uke tipped me off but I figured it should have tipped him off too.


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Imagine a Jodan uke with your arm pretty much straight up.  I’m not a wado guy but that didn’t look right for any situation.  The fact he said it was supposed to be a Jodan uke tipped me off but I figured it should have tipped him off too.



A sort of upper cut to use on giants!


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 18, 2018)

I’ve seen a lot of bizarre things in the name of martial arts but it simply amazes me to think how these folks came up with the idea that what they were doing was proper technique.  

The same folks couldn’t find the pressure point on my forearm so figured that I didn’t have one ?  Yup, I’m just special like that.......


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> I’ve seen a lot of bizarre things in the name of martial arts but it simply amazes me to think how these folks came up with the idea that what they were doing was proper technique.
> 
> The same folks couldn’t find the pressure point on my forearm so figured that I didn’t have one ?  Yup, I’m just special like that.......




Ah but you have a pressure point I don't, on the sole of the foot! How's that you ask , well, I wear high heel shoes which deadens the pressure point until it really doesn't work, well it does over the amount of years I've been wearing heels.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Pinan Shodan
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah cool, thanks for posting Tez, love seeing kata performed in different styles. And I forgot the Pinan Shodan and Nidan were switched around in some styles (I actually think the vids you posted are the original order, I learned them the other way around). Can't remember what caused the switched, I think it was because Pinan Nidan was seen as less difficult, so some styles made it Pinan Shodan.





Tez3 said:


> Ah but you have a pressure point I don't, on the sole of the foot! How's that you ask , well, I wear high heel shoes which deadens the pressure point until it really doesn't work, well it does over the amount of years I've been wearing heels.


Now THAT is a self defense technique rarely talked about! Eliminate your target altogether by simple removing it from your system!


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Pinan Shodan and Nidan




We learn Nidan first then Shodan, it's just that they came up the other way when I was looking for them.


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