# Locking Horns-Front Headlock



## MJS (Apr 29, 2006)

Thought we could discuss this technique as well as any variations you may have.  Any Tracy stylists please feel free to discuss your version of this.

1) With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot towards 11 o'clock and deliver a right upward vertical reverse handsword to opponents groin while simultaneously having your left hand check opponents right thigh just above the knee and your chin turned, so as to keep your breathing constant.

2) Immediately follow up with a right vertical obscure elbow strike to opponents jaw while keeping in a low right neutral bow.

3) After snapping the elbow to opponents jaw, loop your right elbow and strike again, shuffling forward if needed, to the left side of opponents jaw as your left palm heel strike hits to the right side causing a sandwiching effect.


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## JamesB (Apr 30, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Thought we could discuss this technique as well as any variations you may have. Any Tracy stylists please feel free to discuss your version of this.


 
ok I'll have a go  



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> 1) With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot towards 11 o'clock and deliver a right upward vertical reverse handsword to opponents groin....


 
Nature of the attack is quite important here I feel. I realise that this technique is always described this way (as above), but I feel it is important that when practising this technique that the defender should not 'offer' their head to the attacker. 

The way we approach this technique, is for the defender to be standing straight, in a natural stance. The attacker then uses a distraction technique (punch to the body, kick to groin, whatever really) to force the defender into a posture where the front-headlock can actually be applied realistically.

I use a finger-whip to the groin (using the back of the hand/fingers) instead of the handsword as this is faster for me, and results in the arm already being aligned better (i.e chambered and your palm facing back) for the following obscure-vertical-elbow strike. The whip also seems more effective in terms of the effect you want, and also has a greater margin for error due to the surface-area of the weapon you have formed.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> .....while simultaneously having your left hand check opponents right thigh just above the knee and your chin turned, so as to keep your breathing constant.


 
Might it be risky to use the palm of the left hand to check the attacker's knee? If you are fast enough then maybe you can get your hand down quick enough to keep the knee/leg from coming off the ground - this would be an ideal way to control the attacker's posture. However if the knee is already travelling up then trying to counter this with a palm would result in a broken wrist. Maybe emphasising the use of the outside of the forearm would be an option - this way you keep the attacker's knee from striking you as it glances harmlessly on your 'outside'. Thoughts on this anyone?

Thoughts on turning the head+chin to keep your breathing constant: I've been taught that because this is a head-lock attack and not a choke, breathing is not a major problem in this technique. Rather, the head should be kept facing forwards at all times, because to turn the head to the side actually aids the attacker as he is applying the headlock. 

This is how I understand the attack: The attacker's right arm loops over the top of your head then circles underneath. He holds your head in the crook of his right arm, at the side of his chest rather than holding you in front of him. His left arm holds onto right wrist and is 'in tight' against his own body. His aim is to turn your head clockwise (his viewpoint) and to your right shoulder. 

When he gets your head to this position you will find it very difficult to move as the strain on your neck is so large you will have to drop your left shoulder to compensate. Most of your weight will be on your left leg and at this point the defence cannot realistically be executed. By keeping your head turned to the center makes it difficult for the attacker to fully apply the lock. If you turn your chin even a little bit the attacker will use this against you and apply the lock.

That's what I've been taught, but I should point out that I've never had to try this out for real, although by training the attack this way it does seem very realistic when we train it in class - i.e. the attacker _really_ trying hard to get that lock on, and the defender executing the technique against a good deal of resistance.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> 2) Immediately follow up with a right vertical obscure elbow strike to opponents jaw while keeping in a low right neutral bow.


 
I always used to have difficulty with this part of the technique - always used to get tangled up with the attacker's arms. However I've been taught that because of the way the attacker is typically going to hold you in the lock - with his arms tight in against his own body (he will also be standing more on your right-side rather than directly in front), this elbow-strike tracks straight up on the outside of the attacker's arms and hits directly under the attacker's jaw, and is the ideal strike to be using here.

Also the timing from the groin-shot to the rising elbow is important. If you pause after the groin-shot the attacker may react by shifting his hips back, placing his body-wight on top of you, making standing up rather difficult. I 'bounce' the finger-whip straight to the vertical-elbow-strike as one move. I think about it like this: To be effective, the vertical-obscure-elbow must be chambered by dropping your arm straight down, so that the arm is aligned correctly prior to striking. The fingerwhip / handsword is just something you do whilst chambering the arm for the elbow-strike, it is not a distinct move in it's own right.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> 3) After snapping the elbow to opponents jaw, loop your right elbow and strike again, shuffling forward if needed, to the left side of opponents jaw as your left palm heel strike hits to the right side causing a sandwiching effect.


 
We've got an extra move in here. Directly after the lifting vertical-elbow strike (in #2) we pivot (and push-drag if necessary) into a right-forward-bow, simultaneously executing a left push-down block to the attacker's lower centerline, whilst chambering the right fist at the side of our chest. The chambering produces a better structured (stronger) upper-body and provides alignment for the pushdown block. 

The effect of the pushdown-block is to check the attacker's height+depth in place, and forces the attacker into a posture with his head in line with our own shoulders. Following on from this we can then exectute the right inward-elbow-sandwhich you describe, to either side of the attacker's jawline.


James


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## Doc (Apr 30, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> ok I'll have a go
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lots of things going on here James. First you need a stable stance. That's anothe issue addressed in person. If you're 'bending over' and there is any resistance, coming forward is impossible. Second, lets look at the 'headlock.' You're correct its not a 'choke' its a 'cervical lock and a strangle.' Keeping your head straight forward will insure failure, and once again you will  be unable to move forward. Put5 this one on your list, and I will striaghten it out. Very complex because of the nature of the attack, and lots of mechanisms to learn to counter and survive. Claire will be over soon, and maybe I can pass a few things to her.


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## JamesB (Apr 30, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Lots of things going on here James. First you need a stable stance. That's anothe issue addressed in person. If you're 'bending over' and there is any resistance, coming forward is impossible.


 
Ah ok... stable stances taken on board, but I understood that rather than stepping forwards, the attacker pulls you forward, or otherwise dictates where your feet are going more than you can (the defender)? Can't imagine what mechanisms+footwork would be needed here so I'll wait until I'm taught this technique at this level of detail 



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> Second, lets look at the 'headlock.' You're correct its not a 'choke' its a 'cervical lock and a strangle.' Keeping your head straight forward will insure failure, and once again you will be unable to move forward. Put5 this one on your list, and I will striaghten it out. Very complex because of the nature of the attack, and lots of mechanisms to learn to counter and survive.


 
I was understanding 'headlock' to mean a direct hold onto the head - i.e. around the head and face, rather than around the neck which is what I think you are implying by saying this is a strangle? I've got to go back now and read my notes for this technique  But I do find that with a headlock (using my description) turning the head does seem to help the attacker rather than help the defender. I guess the nature of the attack is not what I imagine it to be - i.e the strangle must be taken into consideration.



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> Claire will be over soon, and maybe I can pass a few things to her.


 
sounds good although it's unlikely we'll meet up until 'summer-camp'. Say 'hi' to her for me, won't you. 

james


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## MJS (Apr 30, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> ok I'll have a go
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Very good point!  When learning this technique, I was taught the same thing...that the attacker had done something to cause us to bend over, such as a punch to the stomach.  IMHO, I feel that teaching the student the nature of the attack is very important.  We're certainly not going to 'offer' our hand to them if we're doing a wrist grab technique.



> I use a finger-whip to the groin (using the back of the hand/fingers) instead of the handsword as this is faster for me, and results in the arm already being aligned better (i.e chambered and your palm facing back) for the following obscure-vertical-elbow strike. The whip also seems more effective in terms of the effect you want, and also has a greater margin for error due to the surface-area of the weapon you have formed.


 
Good point! I never thought about that. 



['quote]Might it be risky to use the palm of the left hand to check the attacker's knee? If you are fast enough then maybe you can get your hand down quick enough to keep the knee/leg from coming off the ground - this would be an ideal way to control the attacker's posture. However if the knee is already travelling up then trying to counter this with a palm would result in a broken wrist. Maybe emphasising the use of the outside of the forearm would be an option - this way you keep the attacker's knee from striking you as it glances harmlessly on your 'outside'. Thoughts on this anyone?[/quote]

Agreed.  I prefer the forearm block as well.



> Thoughts on turning the head+chin to keep your breathing constant: I've been taught that because this is a head-lock attack and not a choke, breathing is not a major problem in this technique. Rather, the head should be kept facing forwards at all times, because to turn the head to the side actually aids the attacker as he is applying the headlock.


 
When doing techs. against a headlock or sleeper type choke from behind, I had always tucked and turned towards the crook of their arm while at the same time, using my hands to pull down a bit so as to create some breathing room.  I'd imagine this would be possible to do with this tyupe of attack, however you would have to let go if the knee started to come.  However as Doc pointed out, getting a stable base is important.



> This is how I understand the attack: The attacker's right arm loops over the top of your head then circles underneath. He holds your head in the crook of his right arm, at the side of his chest rather than holding you in front of him. His left arm holds onto right wrist and is 'in tight' against his own body. His aim is to turn your head clockwise (his viewpoint) and to your right shoulder.
> 
> When he gets your head to this position you will find it very difficult to move as the strain on your neck is so large you will have to drop your left shoulder to compensate. Most of your weight will be on your left leg and at this point the defence cannot realistically be executed. By keeping your head turned to the center makes it difficult for the attacker to fully apply the lock. If you turn your chin even a little bit the attacker will use this against you and apply the lock.
> 
> ...


 
Good points! Thanks for taking the time to reply! 

Mike


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## MJS (Apr 30, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Lots of things going on here James. First you need a stable stance. That's anothe issue addressed in person. If you're 'bending over' and there is any resistance, coming forward is impossible. Second, lets look at the 'headlock.' You're correct its not a 'choke' its a 'cervical lock and a strangle.' Keeping your head straight forward will insure failure, and once again you will be unable to move forward. Put5 this one on your list, and I will striaghten it out. Very complex because of the nature of the attack, and lots of mechanisms to learn to counter and survive. Claire will be over soon, and maybe I can pass a few things to her.


 
Doc, I know there have been discussions regarding proper footwork, stances, etc. when defending against a bearhug.  Considering we're not upright, but instead bent over, what foot position would you suggest to deal with the possible resistance?  I'm thinking a forward bow may still work from here.

Mike


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## JamesB (Apr 30, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> When doing techs. against a headlock or sleeper type choke from behind, I had always tucked and turned towards the crook of their arm while at the same time, using my hands to pull down a bit so as to create some breathing room. I'd imagine this would be possible to do with this tyupe of attack, however you would have to let go if the knee started to come. However as Doc pointed out, getting a stable base is important.


 
yeah looks like I'm misunderstanding the head-turning aspect...although turning the head towards the crook of the arm (as you say) would seem to be a good way to:  1. keep the choke/strangle off and, 2. also prevent the attacker from applying the lock fully as I was trying to say in my initial response.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Doc, I know there have been discussions regarding proper footwork, stances, etc. when defending against a bearhug. Considering we're not upright, but instead bent over, what foot position would you suggest to deal with the possible resistance? I'm thinking a forward bow may still work from here.



I'll hazzard a guess here but I'm with you on the forward-bow - or at least a stance with the hips aligned forwards. I'll also take another chance and say that the right foot is placed in front of the left (i.e. a right-forward-stance). Also assume for the moment that the mechanisms for surviving the assult that are at least, if not more complex than the technique described up until this point 

When the lock/strangle is applied you have four appendages (plus your head) which can be used to align yourself and misalign the attacker. So I'll guess that the direction your head is turned (i.e. which shoulder your chin is placed to) is paramount to obtaining a stable stance. 

I'll go further and guess that your right-hand could be used to grip the attacker's own arm and try to ease off the choke. And your left hand could perhaps BAM somewhere on your body prior to moving to the checking position on the attacker's leg. Or the other way round (left/right) Maybe a BAM to one of your hips as you also PAM / position your feet??

Once you've attained a stable stance and survived the assault (i.e. the attacker must now change/reset in order to control you any further), the 'technique' that's been described so far can start from this point.

I'm stuck on this, will wait for further instruction


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## Doc (Apr 30, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> I'm with you on the forward-bow - or at least a stance with the hips aligned forwards.


I was under the impression that if you were 'bent over' forward, a 'forward bow' would not be possible? Forward bows are not an option nor are they structurally sound anywhere in the execution of this technique because the activity is 'under load.' The forward bow is not designed for structural integrity under a sustained load.


> So I'll guess that the direction your head is turned (i.e. which shoulder your chin is placed to) is paramount to obtaining a stable stance.


It is a start.


> I'll go further and guess that your right-hand could be used to grip the attacker's own arm and try to ease off the choke.


impossible. Consider your posture, and the attcker is 'locking' with one arm and 'bracing' his lock with the other.


> I'm stuck on this, will wait for further instruction


Good idea. You have an advantage because of your excellent instruction so you understand some of the SL-4  Concepts, but even so the written word will not suffice in describing significany Body Align/Misalign Mechanisms. This one is a toughy and especially with someone who knows how to apply the lock. Unfortunately, this is one of those techniques where you are forced to presume the attacker knows what he is doing, and not just 'grabbing' you by the head.


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## JamesB (May 1, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> The forward bow is not designed for structural integrity under a sustained load.


 
Interesting, I'll add this to my list of things I need to get straightened out 



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> ....impossible. Consider your posture, and the attcker is 'locking' with one arm and 'bracing' his lock with the other.


 
you mean the attacker is going to be way too strong in his 'brace' for one to manipulate his arms directly or otherwise ease off the choke, right? 



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> Good idea. You have an advantage because of your excellent instruction so you understand some of the SL-4 Concepts, but even so the written word will not suffice in describing significany Body Align/Misalign Mechanisms. This one is a toughy and especially with someone who knows how to apply the lock. Unfortunately, this is one of those techniques where you are forced to presume the attacker knows what he is doing, and not just 'grabbing' you by the head.


 
thanks for your time on this Doc. The one thing I'm learning more and more is how hard it is to have these discussions 'on paper', no matter how honest the intent is.


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## AvPKenpo (May 1, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> 1) With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot towards 11 o'clock and deliver a right upward vertical reverse handsword to opponents groin while simultaneously having your left hand check opponents right thigh just above the knee and your chin turned, so as to keep your breathing constant.


Think also of the possibilities of the attacker. What are the trying to do? One is possible that they are going to choke you with an inner wrist choke or a guillotine choke. other possibilities are that they are going to knee you, or roll you (which involves the attacker falling backward with the individual in the head lock throwing them over their shoulder and landing in mount position while maintaining the lock - very dangerous.) You may find that the first strike you speak of may not work very well if the attacker has very thick thighs, you may be better off using a inverted horizontal thrust punch to the groin. Also making sure that you check at either the knee or hip. ( I find that if you check at the hip hard (almost pushing them back) that the attacker can not get the choke on effectively and also can not throw effectively because you have to have your hips forward to do both well.) Do not forget to turn the head at the beginning this will help with opening an airway because they are trying to collapse your trachea. There are a ton of reversals that can also be done with this technique as well but they veer more toward ground fighting and not getting out of the situation in a Kenpo Logical fashion.


			
				MJS said:
			
		

> 2) Immediately follow up with a right vertical obscure elbow strike to opponents jaw while keeping in a low right neutral bow.
> 3) After snapping the elbow to opponents jaw, loop your right elbow and strike again, shuffling forward if needed, to the left side of opponents jaw as your left palm heel strike hits to the right side causing a sandwiching effect.


Though you did not state it always maintain your position checks and look for the possibilities of point referencing, and white zone awareness.
From a Warrior to Scholars.
Michael


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## Doc (May 2, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> you mean the attacker is going to be way too strong in his 'brace' for one to manipulate his arms directly or otherwise ease off the choke, right?


From your posture, and from your attacker's posture, it will be impossible for you to derive any relief from the lock/strangle with only one arm or even two if it's available.


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## Doc (May 2, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Doc, I know there have been discussions regarding proper footwork, stances, etc. when defending against a bearhug.  Considering we're not upright, but instead bent over, what foot position would you suggest to deal with the possible resistance?  I'm thinking a forward bow may still work from here.
> 
> Mike


No sir, a forward bow would be impossible to achieve under load. Consider a structurally modified 'wide kneel' with proper Indexes and braced postures to Survive the Initial Assault.


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## Doc (May 2, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot towards 11 o'clock .....


Not possible sir under load.


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## Doc (May 2, 2006)

Consider gentlemen the physical dynamics and structure of the body changes significantly from "bending over," to being "bent over," to "being forced to bend over."


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## HKphooey (May 2, 2006)

Best thing to do (especially with headlocks) is try all your suggestions on multiple training partners (different sizes and shapes).  Posting on the forum is great place to get ideas/modifications to your training. But  I would not be too quick to disgard/keep any options/suggestions before you try them on another person.  Some things look wonderful and technical in writing, but on the mat things change.  Certain things that work for you may not work for another (and remember the inverse is also true - things that do not work for one, may work for another).


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## MJS (May 2, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that if you were 'bent over' forward, a 'forward bow' would not be possible? Forward bows are not an option nor are they structurally sound anywhere in the execution of this technique because the activity is 'under load.' The forward bow is not designed for structural integrity under a sustained load.


 
What would you suggest for footwork?  Considering there's going to be movement on the attackers part, I'd think that you'd want to try to stablize yourself.

**edit**  disregard this Doc.  I posted this before I saw your reply a little further down.

Mike


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## MJS (May 2, 2006)

AvPKenpo said:
			
		

> Think also of the possibilities of the attacker. What are the trying to do? One is possible that they are going to choke you with an inner wrist choke or a guillotine choke. other possibilities are that they are going to knee you, or roll you (which involves the attacker falling backward with the individual in the head lock throwing them over their shoulder and landing in mount position while maintaining the lock - very dangerous.) You may find that the first strike you speak of may not work very well if the attacker has very thick thighs, you may be better off using a inverted horizontal thrust punch to the groin. Also making sure that you check at either the knee or hip. ( I find that if you check at the hip hard (almost pushing them back) that the attacker can not get the choke on effectively and also can not throw effectively because you have to have your hips forward to do both well.) Do not forget to turn the head at the beginning this will help with opening an airway because they are trying to collapse your trachea. There are a ton of reversals that can also be done with this technique as well but they veer more toward ground fighting and not getting out of the situation in a Kenpo Logical fashion.
> 
> Though you did not state it always maintain your position checks and look for the possibilities of point referencing, and white zone awareness.
> From a Warrior to Scholars.
> Michael


 
Thanks for your reply!  You've brought up some great points!  This is my intention when I start these discussions...to put the 'written' technique down, and open the discussion up, talking about variations people have, the 'what if' phase of the techniques, etc.  

While I agree that its hard at times to get the mental picture of what someone is trying to say online, we should still be able to discuss things that I've mentioned above.  :ultracool 

Mike


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## Ray (May 2, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> 1) With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot towards 11 o'clock and deliver a right upward vertical reverse handsword to opponents groin while simultaneously having your left hand check opponents right thigh just above the knee and your chin turned, so as to keep your breathing constant.


Locking Horns used to be one of my least favorite techniques. But then I visited a school in Colorado where they didn't just check the attacker's right leg above then knee with the left hand---IF you can, then blast {at or above} the knee (instead of check it) as you step, then you can lock the knee joint and send the attacker backwards towards 12:00. There were a couple other minor varations to what I had learned (and I learned it pretty much like MJS's description) but I don't recall them. I think they were affiliated with Mr. Pick's organization.

Now, for me, it's not such a gosh awful technique.


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## AvPKenpo (May 2, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Thanks for your reply! You've brought up some great points! This is my intention when I start these discussions...to put the 'written' technique down, and open the discussion up, talking about variations people have, the 'what if' phase of the techniques, etc.
> 
> Mike


 
NP.  I would also like to hear of any other possible escapes, reversals that do not end in taking someone to the ground, in a ground and pound situation.  Of course with all of us being Kenpo guys and gals what are we doing in that position in the first place    Has anyone out there had the experience of having this type of lock/choke put on them in a real-life (non dojo) situation?  And if you have what was your experience with escaping.
The most important thing in this whole technique (IMHO) is that we check the leg/hip and punch(or inverted handsword strike) to the groin and if they don't let go rinse and repeat.  
From a Warrior to Scholars
Michael


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## AvPKenpo (May 2, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> No sir, a forward bow would be impossible to achieve under load. Consider a structurally modified 'wide kneel' with proper Indexes and braced postures to Survive the Initial Assault.


 
You are right a forward bow would be impossible but a lowered forward bow (close kneel stance) would be the appropriate stance.  Establishing a base is very important, you are not going to be in a picture perfect stance as the technique is executed because in all stances we are told to keep our back straight.  In this paticular technique we are bent at the waist so any stance that we go into is only to stabilize.  So I guess this would be a close kneel only from the waist down.
When pure fist meets pure face it is pure Kenpo.
From a Warrior to Scholars
Michael


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## JenniM (May 2, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> I'm stuck on this, will wait for further instruction


 
Hey James, great thread!!!! - saw our Instructor by chance today :wink: !! think he may be able to help us out with this on Friday night in class - see you there:asian:


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## Doc (May 2, 2006)

AvPKenpo said:
			
		

> You are right a forward bow would be impossible but a lowered forward bow (close kneel stance) would be the appropriate stance.


Incorrect sir. Not structurally supportable in this circumstance under load primarily due to the position/posture of the pelvic bone, relative to the indexed head, and weight distribution. No way.


> Establishing a base is very important, you are not going to be in a picture perfect stance as the technique is executed because in all stances we are told to keep our back straight.


When you say 'we,' I presume you mean your instruction?


> In this paticular technique we are bent at the waist so any stance that we go into is only to stabilize.


?


> So I guess this would be a close kneel only from the waist down.


May I suggest that 'stances' quite properly include upper body postures in advanced applications and descriptions sir.


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## Doc (May 2, 2006)

Ray said:
			
		

> Locking Horns used to be one of my least favorite techniques. But then I visited a school in Colorado where they didn't just check the attacker's right leg above then knee with the left hand---IF you can, then blast {at or above} the knee (instead of check it) as you step, then you can lock the knee joint and send the attacker backwards towards 12:00. There were a couple other minor varations to what I had learned (and I learned it pretty much like MJS's description) but I don't recall them. I think they were affiliated with Mr. Pick's organization.
> 
> Now, for me, it's not such a gosh awful technique.


interesting sir.


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## Doc (May 2, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> things that do not work for one, may work for another).


May I suggest sir, that when you utilize proper mechanics ultimately everything works on everyone. The idea of abandoning something that 'doesn't work for you' is a commerical business concept to keep students from getting board. Old school would suggest you work the principle until you learn to make it work. The reason for this is, no principle in the real arts/sciences is isolated and will always resurface at another level. they are all foundational material to higher understanding and execution. Consider learning your 'ABC's" but having trouble with learning the vowels. Wht wld tht d d t r ftr lngg nd th blt t cmmnct? (What would that do to your future ability to communicate?) The commercialality of the arts in general, and kenpo in particular put forth this 'tailoring' philosophy to make students responsible for their own inadequacies in persuit of quick self-defense skills. The problem comes when they realize you cannot get to higher knowledge or skill this way, but you've advanced to teaching. The other problem is when you have high rank in the 'shortcut' method, and don't want to admit you don't know anything and swear its the best thing since sliced bread.


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## JamesB (May 2, 2006)

JenniM said:
			
		

> Hey James, great thread!!!! - saw our Instructor by chance today :wink: !! think he may be able to help us out with this on Friday night in class - see you there:asian:


 
Hey Jenni, looking forward to it, seeyou friday!


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## Doc (May 2, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> Hey Jenni, looking forward to it, seeyou friday!


Hey sweetie, how are you? Much work to be done on this technique. I haven'tgotten deep into it quite yet. More mechanisms to come, but the good news is Kevin can and will make it work. You know him don't you? and - "I ani't mad at ya."


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## JenniM (May 3, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Hey sweetie, how are you? Much work to be done on this technique. I haven'tgotten deep into it quite yet. More mechanisms to come, but the good news is Kevin can and will make it work. You know him don't you? and - "I ani't mad at ya."



Hi Doc!!   I'm good thankyou.    Definitely sounds like one to work on which I'm looking forward to - I think I know who you're talking about ;-) - he should be over to you again later this year - we had a great time in Holland btw - it was good to see Ryan again, we did some great Kenpo and had a lot of fun - missing you though, nearly forgot what you look like ;-) but "I ain't mad at ya either"!  x x


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## JamesB (May 3, 2006)

ok I more thoughts on this after reading the other poster's comments:

In my initial response I wondered if using the palm of the hand might be dangerous due to a possible knee coming your way...I think now that due to the way the headlock is being applied (with the attacker's arms tight around your head) that he won't be able to knee (arms in the way), and in fact wont be considering this just because of the hold he is using.

So in order to establish a stable base your own arm(s?) could be used not only to check the attacker's leg against the ground, but also allow you to brace yourself against the attacker's own body? not sure exactly where on the leg you'd want to go for (I check above the knee and judging by other posters this seems consistent). So with a single checking action you misalign the attacker's hips but also brace yourself off his own body-structure and prevent him taking you further down?

looked at my notes and it does say use a widekneel..

thoughts anyone?


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## kenposikh (May 3, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> ok I more thoughts on this after reading the other poster's comments:
> 
> In my initial response I wondered if using the palm of the hand might be dangerous due to a possible knee coming your way...I think now that due to the way the headlock is being applied (with the attacker's arms tight around your head) that he won't be able to knee (arms in the way), and in fact wont be considering this just because of the hold he is using.
> 
> ...


 
Hi James,

I have only touched on this with my instuctor and I can tell you there are quite a lot of mechanisms to put into play but when they are there it sure is effective.

Hopefully see you Friday, I should be well rested I hope. I am going into hospital thursday evening for an overnight stay my sleep study finally came through. It's nice to know someone is interested in how I sleep  4 hours is more than enough isn't it.


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## Ray (May 3, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> In my initial response I wondered if using the palm of the hand might be dangerous due to a possible knee coming your way...I think now that due to the way the headlock is being applied (with the attacker's arms tight around your head) that he won't be able to knee (arms in the way), and in fact wont be considering this just because of the hold he is using.


I assume the palm you mention is the check to the attacker's knee.  You might try a left handsword (palm down, fingers pointing towards 3:00).  Strike in a downward/forward direction to keep the attacker's foot on the ground (more forward than downward, though).  Strike just above the knee and strike as you step forward.


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## AvPKenpo (May 3, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Incorrect sir. Not structurally supportable in this circumstance under load primarily due to the position/posture of the pelvic bone, relative to the indexed head, and weight distribution.


 
To clarify for everyone here (myself included) what is your definition of indexes?  I want to make sure that we are understanding each other.  (this way we can continue on in our playful banter ).
To clarify my statement better:  Whether you go to a close kneel or a wide kneel, the point being you need to regain control of the situation. Pain is a Check.  If you nail this attacker in the groin the stances will be a lot easier to accomplish.  
A lot of what we discuss here is transitory anyways, would you agree?
I enjoy everyones points and ideas, lets keep it rolling.
From a Warrior to Scholars
Michael


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## Doc (May 3, 2006)

Ray said:
			
		

> I assume the palm you mention is the check to the attacker's knee.  You might try a left handsword (palm down, fingers pointing towards 3:00).  Strike in a downward/forward direction to keep the attacker's foot on the ground (more forward than downward, though).  Strike just above the knee and strike as you step forward.


I got my eyes on you Ray.


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## Michael Billings (May 3, 2006)

Ray is on the right track.  Now if you combine this with some knowledge of the pressure points on the inside of the leg and the direction they need to be struck, combine this with knowledge of "how" you strike them and you ensure that the leg will buckle out, relieving some, if not all of the load.  Everything else should follow.   The wide kneel not only establishes the base you need, but also ensures alignment, appropriate depth of action, gravitational marriage, and rotation for the strike to the inside of the leg.  

But then uppercuts repeatedly to the testicles, pubic bone, or bladder - until they are a bowl full of jelly could work also, contingent on their attack.

-Michael


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## TChase (May 3, 2006)

Ray said:
			
		

> Locking Horns used to be one of my least favorite techniques. But then I visited a school in Colorado where they didn't just check the attacker's right leg above then knee with the left hand---IF you can, then blast {at or above} the knee (instead of check it) as you step, then you can lock the knee joint and send the attacker backwards towards 12:00. There were a couple other minor varations to what I had learned (and I learned it pretty much like MJS's description) but I don't recall them. I think they were affiliated with Mr. Pick's organization.
> 
> Now, for me, it's not such a gosh awful technique.


 
You're correct sir...attacking the knee and locking the leg out is part of how we do it but there are some fundamental differences to how the technique is described in the first post.


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## Doc (May 4, 2006)

AvPKenpo said:
			
		

> To clarify for everyone here (myself included) what is your definition of indexes?


BODY INDEX TRAINING (B.I.T.)  Called BIT Training. In SubLevel Four Kenpo, it is the use of anatomical Index points of all articulated appendages to facilitate rapid acquisition of correct anatomical body mechanics and postures in the beginning stages of learning. Additionally, these index points correspond to Grappling Control Mechanism postures that facilitate obstructive dominance of depth over an attackers forward pressure and load. 


> Whether you go to a close kneel or a wide kneel, the point being you need to regain control of the situation.


you're missing the point sir. A successful functional close kneeel is NOT possible under these circumstances, and cannot be ignored.


> Pain is a Check.


No it isn't. Pain is an irritant in various degrees to individuals predicated on a multitude of circumstances.


> If you nail this attacker in the groin the stances will be a lot easier to accomplish.


You would appear sir to be putting the cart before the horse. Without an established structural base, the opportunity to strike anything will not be possible. The number one priority in this circumstance is to Survive the Initial Assault. If you do not, you will find yourself choked, strangled, locked, or pinned to the ground, or all of the above.


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## AvPKenpo (May 11, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> you're missing the point sir. A successful functional close kneeel is NOT possible under these circumstances, and cannot be ignored.


 
After going over this technique more deeply I am sticking to my Close Kneel on this defense.



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> The number one priority in this circumstance is to Survive the Initial Assault. If you do not, you will find yourself choked, strangled, locked, or pinned to the ground, or all of the above.


 
At least we agree on this.:asian: 

From a Warrior to a scholar -- Michael


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## Doc (May 11, 2006)

AvPKenpo said:
			
		

> After going over this technique more deeply I am sticking to my Close Kneel on this defense.


The pelvic alignment for a properly executed 'close kneel' stance, will not support the anatomical structure of the posture necessitated by the attack under a skeletal 'load.' You will be taken down, choked, strangled, locked and/or pinned. Hopefully you will never need to use this technique to find out.

The next time you talk to Jim, tell him I said that.


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