# Michael Jai White - non telegraphic movement



## TMA17 (Oct 22, 2017)




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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2017)

There is a neat little sword fighting strike where it is hand first then foot.

Works on the same sort of idea.


The concept of this straight towards movement vs sideways movement is very important.


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## Danny T (Oct 22, 2017)

Hand before body.


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## Anarax (Oct 22, 2017)

TMA17 said:


>



We do the same drill in Kali with pads. Having to unlearn telegraphing is difficult, but it's a major advantage in sparring/fighting.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2017)

Bad news. There is always a telegraph. The key is learning how to use the correct part of the eye to see it (cones vs rods).  Our eyes have a remarkable ability to detect motion as slight as body shift and weight redistribution. How good is it? If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it. The difficulty that we have is that our eyes like to focus on things and that interrupts our ability to see things.  We often experience this heighten ability to detect motion when we say things like "saw it from the corner of my eye."   The most common example I can think of is when a ball or object is thrown and a person sees it just in time to duck or avoid it without thinking.
Here's an example of that ability to track motion





I forgot the name of the Japanese Swordman who stated "focus by not focusing" or something like that. When you are able to do this at will, then it will be like everything is slowing down and moving in slow motion. You see the motion that comes before the motion.  I've only been able to do this once during sparring.

I used to train this ability by not looking directly at my opponent.  I look either to the right or left on my opponent far enough to where I can no longer see detail in my opponent. Your opponent should be like a blur. Keep doing this until it becomes easy to see the movement.  Once you "master" this then move your gaze a little closer to your opponent.  Eventually you'll get to point where you almost look directly at your opponent without focusing in on your opponent.

Give it a try and you'll be able to even detect motion that was described in the OP's video.  Have fun with it and be patient.  Focusing by not focusing is difficult to do, but when you get it, you'll be amazed.


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## Anarax (Oct 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Bad news. There is always a telegraph


Telegraph is a tell before you start executing the technique, taking out wasted motion or any physiological sign until you start the technique is how you train to not telegraph. Throwing the punch isn't the telegraph, raising your elbow, tensing up, sinking your weight, etc are the telegraphs.  


JowGaWolf said:


> If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it


With all due respect that's not true. Regardless of how great of a martial artist you are you can't predict the future.


JowGaWolf said:


> Here's an example of that ability to track motion


This video is fake and has been altered to look real. Even if it was real, which it isn't, I'm sure the loud crack of the bat hitting the ball was the tell.


JowGaWolf said:


> I used to train this ability by not looking directly at my opponent. I look either to the right or left on my opponent far enough to where I can no longer see detail in my opponent.


That's sounds like a very dangerous thing to do. If you're able to get away with that in sparring, maybe you need more challenging sparring partners. If you're sparring/fighting more than one person, then yes you should avoid focusing too much on one opponent. But that's not what you're referring to.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Telegraph is a tell before you start executing the technique, taking out wasted motion or any physiological sign until you start the technique is how you train to not telegraph. Throwing the punch isn't the telegraph, raising your elbow, tensing up, sinking your weight, etc are the telegraphs.


There is always a telegraph.  Training not to telegraph is more accurately described as training to reduce so that your opponent is less aware of it.  

You have to keep in mind that a "Telegraphed motion" is based on 2 things.  Your ability to move and my ability to detect your motion.  The better you are at hiding your motion the better I need to be in detecting it.   If I suck at detecting motion then it doesn't take much for the person to "not telegraph."   Just because I can't read your attacks or motion doesn't automatically mean that you are "not telegraphing."  It could just mean that I suck at reading motion.

I think most martial art systems understand this reality of "not telegraphing" and learned to hide motion within motion, which is very common in martial arts.  In the video, Kimbo slice held his hand within a good striking range.  Had he held his hand back just far enough Michael Jai White to adjust, then Michael Jai White would have moved more to reach the target.  



Anarax said:


> With all due respect that's not true. Regardless of how great of a martial artist you are you can't predict the future.


You aren't reading what I've been saying.  You aren't predicting anything.  You are seeing the movement.  Every punch and every kick has a balance shift.  The body will naturally shift weight as the body tries to maintain balance while doing the action.  The balance shift for a punch is different from the balance shift for a kick. Everything I've said has been about seeing motion and not predicting the future.



Anarax said:


> This video is fake and has been altered to look real. Even if it was real, which it isn't, I'm sure the loud crack of the bat hitting the ball was the tell.


I looked it up and the resource that I found stated that it was actually real. So lets say that it is fake.  Have you caught a falling glass when you weren't looking directly at it?  If not then you can see it at work again here.





Like I said before.  Many of us have done this before in our lives, but it wasn't done at will and it happened when we weren't trying to be quick or trying to see motion.  
Here's another example: Notice the angle of the pitchers' head as they catch the ball. If you turn head and try to look forward like they are doing you will notice that you lose detail.  As a matter of fact you will lose so much detail that won't be able read the name on a water bottle no matter how much you try to focus.  The reason is because you are using a different part of your eye to see.  The part that you are using is extremely good at detecting motion.







Anarax said:


> That's sounds like a very dangerous thing to do. If you're able to get away with that in sparring, maybe you need more challenging sparring partners. If you're sparring/fighting more than one person, then yes you should avoid focusing too much on one opponent. But that's not what you're referring to.


It's not as dangerous as you think.  Start off with light sparring because you have to train to look though a different part of your eye.  When you first start you will constantly keep trying to focus.  Focusing creates tunnel vision and causes you to miss very subtle movements.  The more you get comfortable with seeing things without detail the better you'll get at it.  The ultimate goal is to look towards your opponent without focusing on him.

The natural human body behavior is to First: detect motion and Second: focus on the motion.  The training  removes the second part until you see motion, but not focus on it. I trained the other instructor at my school with this technique and he was able to learn it. I hated that I trained him, because it became more difficult to hit him when he is able to switch his vision.  When this happens I had to learn how to hide motion within motion.


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## Anarax (Oct 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it


My opponent hasn't decided to use the technique, so it hasn't happened yet. I can see the strike before the very thought of it is formed, thus I can see the future.


JowGaWolf said:


> You aren't reading what I've been saying.


Yes I am, but I can only read the words that you type, thus if you meant something other than what you typed I couldn't know that.


JowGaWolf said:


> If not then you can see it at work again here.


Parents seeing in their field of vision and catching their kids falling doesn't prove the concept you speak of. Catching falling children isn't the same as reacting to a trained martial artists trying to hit you. Same thing goes for ball players who are entirely focused on what they're doing and having fast reflexes, but they are entirely focused on what they are doing.


JowGaWolf said:


> Notice the angle of the pitchers' head as they catch the ball. If you turn head and try to look forward like they are doing you will notice that you lose detail


No, that just means that one player had faster reflexes than the other, it has nothing to do with looking away gives you a better response time.


JowGaWolf said:


> Focusing creates tunnel vision and causes you to miss very subtle movements


Only focusing on my opponents fist or foot is foolish, but not focusing entirely on them as the threat isn't going to give me any advantage in responding to attacks. 


JowGaWolf said:


> Have you caught a falling glass when you weren't looking directly at it?


I have heard a glass starting to fall and because of my memory I know where it is on the table and gravity can only pull it in one direction, then yes I have caught a glass before. Sparring and fighting aren't that simple though. There are too many angles, ranges and factors that must be contentiously assessed to be able to respond to attacks.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 23, 2017)

What we refer to as "telegraphing" is actually two pieces (JGW is right in this area): how much motion you give before or at the very beginning of the strike, and how good your opponent/partner is at recognizing that specific pattern of movement. If they start moving the shoulder in preparation of the attack, I have a better chance of reading that movement than an untrained student..........if it's a movement I'm used to seeing (this is one of the advantages of sparring/training with other styles). If it's something I'm not used to seeing, and doesn't match any of the patterns I (subconsciously) know, then I'm maybe no better at reading it than an untrained person.

I don't think it's entirely possible to remove the tells in the early part of a strike, but it is possible to get them to a point where most people (even most well-trained people) will not see them. I'm probably not that person, and probably not the best at reading them (I'd guess Drop Bear, having been at the target end of more punches from untrained people, is much better at this than me).


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 23, 2017)

I will also add that the reflex bits (catching kids, balls, glasses) isn't a good analogy, IMO, for reading a punch. All those things are mostly recognizing motion and picking a target. Recognizing a punch requires more differentiation (knowing they aren't just stepping forward, that they aren't gathering for a kick, getting which arm it is, seeing that it's either straight or curved, etc.). It's actually more akin to reading a pitch from the batter's box. The approach we use is a wide-focus (kind of like JGW is talking about), with the center at the top of the chest (from there I can usually see shoulders, knees, and hands - unless the hands are attached to me, then I know where they are).


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## wckf92 (Oct 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Bad news. There is always a telegraph. The key is learning how to use the correct part of the eye to see it (cones vs rods).  Our eyes have a remarkable ability to detect motion as slight as body shift and weight redistribution. How good is it? If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it. The difficulty that we have is that our eyes like to focus on things and that interrupts our ability to see things.  We often experience this heighten ability to detect motion when we say things like "saw it from the corner of my eye."   The most common example I can think of is when a ball or object is thrown and a person sees it just in time to duck or avoid it without thinking.
> Here's an example of that ability to track motion
> 
> 
> ...



Cones vs rods...very true. And a good observation by jgw. 
I first learned it outside of martial arts but it is and can be applied in a lot of daily life aspects.


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## Danny T (Oct 23, 2017)

The video with Evan Longoria is a fake. Was set up from a Gillette Razor Company commercial.

Gillette spokesman Michael Norton  "The video was filmed while on location for a Gillette Fusion ProGlide commercial, the catch is real, we flipped him the ball. The rest of video, (chuckling) we’ll leave that up to the viewers.”

I agree with being able to read body movement. 
Cones and rods viewing is correct. Peripheral vision will pick up movement quicker than foveal vision. However, be aware that in a high stress situation such as in a self defense situation adrenaline produced by the body reduces peripheral vision and the ability to see much beyond foveal vision.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 23, 2017)

Michael Jai White



> He is an accomplished martial artist, holding black belts in seven different styles: Shotokan, Taekwondo, Kobudo, Goju Ryu (for which he studied under Master Eddie Morales where he learned to sharpen his Goju karate technique), Tang Soo Do, Wushu and Kyokushin, with a specific focus in Kyokushin (although his style incorporates aspects of many different martial arts forms). White started training in the martial arts at the age of seven in Jujutsu and then Shotokan moving to other styles later.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2017)

Danny T said:


> The video with Evan Longoria is a fake. Was set up from a Gillette Razor Company commercial.
> 
> Gillette spokesman Michael Norton  "The video was filmed while on location for a Gillette Fusion ProGlide commercial, the catch is real, we flipped him the ball. The rest of video, (chuckling) we’ll leave that up to the viewers.”
> 
> ...


Thanks for verifying that the video is fake.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2017)

Anarax said:


> My opponent hasn't decided to use the technique, so it hasn't happened yet. I can see the strike before the very thought of it is formed, thus I can see the future.


Think of it like this. Can you look at a beginner student and tell that they are trying to punch before they even decide to punch?  It's like that.  It's just easier to see it in a beginner student because they have tell-tale signs all over the place.  The only difference between an advanced student and a beginner student, is that the advanced student doesn't have tell-tales that are easy to see. 



Anarax said:


> Parents seeing in their field of vision and catching their kids falling doesn't prove the concept you speak of. Catching falling children isn't the same as reacting to a trained martial artists trying to hit you. Same thing goes for ball players who are entirely focused on what they're doing and having fast reflexes, but they are entirely focused on what they are doing.


It's actually a good analogy if you understand how the cones and rods of the eye work.  It's not about seeing a punch, it's about seeing movement, so the punch becomes irrelevant.  I often say that the more I learn about fighting the less it becomes about fighting.  This is one of those subjects that fits into that saying.  What I'm talking about is letting the body naturally recognize movement and letting the trained technique be the reaction.  If you train a technique over and over it becomes a natural habit.  It's something that will happen even if you aren't thinking about it happening.  Martial artist practice a technique over and over until they that technique becomes a reactive motion (a motion that will happen without thought). 

Our eyes and brain are amazing and they would be even better if we would get out of our own way and let the brain process information naturally without trying to manually process information.  This is why you will always hear martial art instructors tell students not to think when they do forms, and not to over think when sparring.  Our manual thinking slows us down.



Anarax said:


> There are too many angles, ranges and factors that must be contentiously assessed to be able to respond to attacks.


There used to be a time were I would make a video to show this. Same concept of vision and recognizing motion and using Peripheral Vision.


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## Anarax (Oct 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Can you look at a beginner student and tell that they are trying to punch before they even decide to punch?


No, I would have to be psychic to see something coming before it's very existence is thought of.


JowGaWolf said:


> It's not about seeing a punch, it's about seeing movement, so the punch becomes irrelevant.


No, it's not irrelevant, seeing movement isn't enough, our brain must know what technique is coming so we respond appropriately. I'm not going to block a kick with the same technique I block a punch with. Thus what is being thrown at me is very relevant.


JowGaWolf said:


> Our manual thinking slows us down.


I agree, but that's were muscle memory comes into play. It's not training natural reactions alone, we must recognize the criteria for the appropriate technique then we nsturally execute the technique. If I vigorously train my muscle memory to block punches, that won't give me the ability to sense a punch coming from every direction at all times. I must either see the punch coming or a physical tell it's about to be thrown to respond.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2017)

A lot of this has to do with where you stand. If the shot has a direct line. You probably won't see it. So avoid standing there.

There is more to it than just not cocking your arm back in a punch.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2017)

Anarax said:


> No, I would have to be psychic to see something coming before it's very existence is thought of.


You still aren't understanding what I'm saying.  There is movement before you actually do an action.  Very simple.  If you can't understand this example, then I can't make it any clearer.  When a person throws a ball, they make movement before they actually throw a ball.  Punching and kicking is the same way.  There is movement that happens before the actual punch or before the actual kick.  The movement that happens before a punch looks different than the movement that happens before a kick.

*This is the concept:* There is movement before movement.
*This is the proof:* In the video that was posted of Michale Jai White, Go to the 1:30 mark and start playing it in slow motion around one 1:33 you will see him make the preparation movement which is to move the right leg forward slightly.  This first movement sets up the balance that he needs to throw the punch.  This is probably a tell-tale for him because he did it with every punch.  It's like a "sneak step" to close the distance without your opponent knowing and it preps the stance that he'll need to execute the punch. One the first punch his chest actually flexes before the punch is thrown. Some people hold their breath or tense up when they throw a punch which means that the initial movement isn't in their arms but in their chest. The movement that one will see is a change in breathing.

Now for the second punch.  Same thing.  He has movement in his right leg.  Instead of stepping he sinks. This is him preparing.  This time the movement for the punch was more in his shoulder.  Right before the punch you can see his shoulder muscles flex.

Now for the third punch. This time the movement is right leg is even less because he's already at his efficient distance.  Again. His shoulder tenses up before the punch is actually thrown.

Each punch was the same thing.  Movement was around the shoulder area in the form of the shoulder muscles flexing.  

I can't be sure but when he throws the punch with his rear hand, it appears that his chest tenses up before the throw.  Michael Jai White is not saying anything wrong, he's just leaving a lot of things out.  But towards the end he talks about how the eye works and that's what you have to understand first.  Once you understand how the eye works then you can exploit the human tendency or the natural human reaction of the eye. 

Kimbo slice was a street fighter, so what Michael Jai White was able to do in the demo with Kimbo was done to a person who didn't understand how his own eyes function in the context of seeing motion. Kimbo slice was looking for the punch vs looking for the motion before the punch.



Anarax said:


> our brain must know what technique is coming so we respond appropriately.


That why there is so much repetition in martial arts so that techniques happen as a reflex with little involvement of manually trying to decide which technique is going to come out.  The repetition programs the brain so that things happen without trying to "know what technique is coming and what technique we should use in response."  That's just way too much thinking and it won't help in learning how to apply the techniques and when. 

From what you are explaining, you are making the process of the "How too" way to complicated.  It's simple
Train repetition
Train the eye that recognizes movement
Fight.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> You still aren't understanding what I'm saying.  There is movement before you actually do an action.  Very simple.  If you can't understand this example, then I can't make it any clearer.  When a person throws a ball, they make movement before they actually throw a ball.  Punching and kicking is the same way.  There is movement that happens before the actual punch or before the actual kick.  The movement that happens before a punch looks different than the movement that happens before a kick.
> 
> *This is the concept:* There is movement before movement.
> *This is the proof:* In the video that was posted of Michale Jai White, Go to the 1:30 mark and start playing it in slow motion around one 1:33 you will see him make the preparation movement which is to move the right leg forward slightly.  This first movement sets up the balance that he needs to throw the punch.  This is probably a tell-tale for him because he did it with every punch.  It's like a "sneak step" to close the distance without your opponent knowing and it preps the stance that he'll need to execute the punch. One the first punch his chest actually flexes before the punch is thrown. Some people hold their breath or tense up when they throw a punch which means that the initial movement isn't in their arms but in their chest. The movement that one will see is a change in breathing.
> ...


I think the issue is that you've twice said "before they decide to punch". To me (and apparently to Anarax) that sounds like you're saying you'll know they are going to punch before they do. I assume that's not what you mean.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> You still aren't understanding what I'm saying. There is movement before you actually do an action. Very simple. If you can't understand this example, then I can't make it any clearer. When a person throws a ball, they make movement before they actually throw a ball. Punching and kicking is the same way. There is movement that happens before the actual punch or before the actual kick. The movement that happens before a punch looks different than the movement that happens before a kick.



A lot of the video deals with sideways vs direct movement though. It takes a step past basic telegraphing.

And how you would apply this would be if say for example you punch with a flaired elbow. That elbow coming across the body becomes a visual clue that you are punching. Rather than seeing the fist moving directly forwards which is hard.

So if visually you can put the line of your elbow behind your fist you reduce your tell.

This is also one very basic reason you move to the blind side. Because then a right cross has to move sideways where you can see it rather than straight on where you can't.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think the issue is that you've twice said "before they decide to punch". To me (and apparently to Anarax) that sounds like you're saying you'll know they are going to punch before they do. I assume that's not what you mean.



If you are doing your job right you should be able to tell when they will punch before they punch.

Because again you are not just going to sit there with this straight line between their fist and your head in arms reach.

So they move and then strike. When they move, you move and you become one beat ahead of them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you are doing your job right you should be able to tell when they will punch before they punch.
> 
> Because again you are not just going to sit there with this straight line between their fist and your head in arms reach.
> 
> So they move and then strike. When they move, you move and you become one beat ahead of them.


Agreed. But not before they make the decision to punch.


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## Anarax (Oct 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> You still aren't understanding what I'm saying


It's not I lack the ability to comprehend what you're saying, it's that what you're saying isn't true


JowGaWolf said:


> There is movement before you actually do an action.


Now you're changing what you originally said. Knowing before they decide(which is before movement) is different from picking up on physical tells. 

It's not the readers inability to understand you if you 1) type one thing but then mean something entirely different or 2) Gradually change your position from what you originally typed.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think the issue is that you've twice said "before they decide to punch". To me (and apparently to Anarax) that sounds like you're saying you'll know they are going to punch before they do. I assume that's not what you mean.



It is very simple as long as you don't look at it like trying to predict the future.  Thinking of it that way will point you in the wrong direction.  An attack is 2 things.  You decide what you "WANT TO DO" which shows in how you stand and move (this often given away by creep stance, stance position, and distance).  Then you decide "WHEN TO DO IT"  which was the flex in Micheal Jai White's shoulder.  

"Before they decide to punch" is the ready position that people get in that is required to perform the action.  In the case of the video it was a "creep stance" and a calm before the punch. 

Remember.  There are 2 decisions that you make for an attack "What you want to do" and "When you do it"  This is only for an attack, countering and defense is different.


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## Martial D (Oct 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Bad news. There is always a telegraph. The key is learning how to use the correct part of the eye to see it (cones vs rods).  Our eyes have a remarkable ability to detect motion as slight as body shift and weight redistribution. How good is it? If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it. The difficulty that we have is that our eyes like to focus on things and that interrupts our ability to see things.  We often experience this heighten ability to detect motion when we say things like "saw it from the corner of my eye."   The most common example I can think of is when a ball or object is thrown and a person sees it just in time to duck or avoid it without thinking.
> Here's an example of that ability to track motion
> 
> 
> ...


I learned to do this years ago all on my own, just from sparring a lot. Fuzz your vision by not focussing on anything and you will see everything. This also makes you harder to read.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. But not before they make the decision to punch.


If you spar then you do this all the time.  It probably plays in your mind as "It looks like he wants to punch me."  or "It looks like he wants to kick me."  These thoughts come to mind based on the information that you see in their stance, movement, and body position. To prove that you may have done this before. It is most likely that you moved forward, backwards, or at an angle to force your opponent to reset their plans for what they were trying to do.  On some occasions you may stay there so you can counter, because you know what's coming before it comes.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Now you're changing what you originally said. Knowing before they decide(which is before movement) is different from picking up on physical tells.


 This is what I said in my post "*If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it.*"  This reflects what I'm trying to tell you.  This happens when you see what your opponent wants to do.  It is not the same as seeing WHEN your opponent has decided to do it.  Those are two different things.  Baits will sometimes happen because you see what your opponent WANTS to do. So instead of trying to make force bait a kick, you just set the opponent to do what they are trying to do anyway.  This falls under the statement in red.

You are having difficulty because you keep thinking of it as predicting the future. Nothing I'm saying is mystical.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2017)

Question #1.  Based on stance and body position of the guy scoring punches, What does it look like he wants to do?
Question #2   Are you able to see the strike that he wants to do before he actually does it.  
Question #3   If you can see the strike then can you see any tell-tale of when he will decide to do the strike.  Keep in mind.  The tell-tale may not only be on the person, but it may also be a reaction to ones distance.  In other words, when fighter A gets withing a certain distance fighter B will be triggered into an attack, defense, of movement backwards. In the context of the video below was distance a triggering factor?


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2017)

I don't think we a completely eliminating tells. Just reducing the time the other guy has to react. 

So if jow gar is saying there is still ways to pick a punch coming he is correct.

Its still a fight


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> And how you would apply this would be if say for example you punch with a flaired elbow. That elbow coming across the body becomes a visual clue that you are punching. Rather than seeing the fist moving directly forwards which is hard.


This is what I refer to as "hiding motion within motion."  My opinion is that at this stage the martial arts practitioner becomes very dangerous.  If your opponent catches on to how you are reading them and is of a high skill level in terms of analyzing their opponents (in this case you -general you), then they will start hiding movements of one techniques in the movement of another technique.  By default there a lot of techniques like that that are taught right off the back that do this.  We often see it a variety of this with kicking techniques but not so much with punches in comparison.

The more I understand the techniques I know the more I begin to see that the founding martial artists really had a strong understanding of body mechanics, human behavior, and how to exploit it.  It's like my studies of martial arts moves away from fighting and more into science or human studies.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I don't think we a completely eliminating tells. Just reducing the time the other guy has to react.
> 
> So if jow gar is saying there is still ways to pick a punch coming he is correct.
> 
> Its still a fight


Correct.  It would be very difficult to do so if not impossible (to completely eliminate tells).  In reality a tell-tale only really exists if your opponent sees it and exploits it.  Exploit being the key word. It doesn't help to see a punch coming and still get hit by it.  I've done that a few times as well. I've been hit right in the eye, as I watch the punch leave and land on my eyeball.  Literally the only reason it got dark was because they glove was covering my opened eye.  I would laugh and joke about it and get back to business.  I spar to learn so no real damage was done other than a little hit to my pride.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Fuzz your vision by not focussing on anything and you will see everything.


As crazy as that description sounds, that's exactly what it's like.  

I found the quote that I was referring to that says exactly what you are describing.  The "*perception is strong and sight is weak*" is what happens when the vision is "fuzzed"  You see stuff but you couldn't read a name tag to save your life during this phase.   "*See distance things as if they were close*"  I'm not sure about this one.  I think this describes seeing the movements of an attack.  The movements are very slight and when viewed normally it's like seeing a care move in the distances.  You wouldn't be able to tell how much it moved because it's so far way.  But when the vision is "fuzzed," that slight motion becomes more noticeable as if you were looking at something close.  The other meaning I think can be that we would have more visual details on things far away vs the person opponent in front of us who is "fuzzed"   The last part "*to take distanced view of close things*" could be the blurring  or fuzzed look at the opponent who is closer.  Things that are far away lose detail things that are closer have detail.  It could be both are correct interpretations of meaning.

* “Perception is strong and sight weak. In strategy it is important to see distant things as if they were close and to take a distanced view of close things.” *

― Miyamoto Musashi


I did some research on the net to see what boxing says about the concept.  Here's how one site explains it.
Source: Boxing Tip #5: Learn to Read the Signs | Commando Boxing - How to Box
*There are two types of tells:*
*1. Universal tells.* These are based on physiology. For instance, the hips have to rotate a certain way to throw a certain punch.

*2. Idiosyncratic tells.* These are unique to your opponent. They are habits they have developed over time which have either gone unnoticed or unchecked.

*How to Read the Universal Signs*
*How to Read the Idiosyncratic (Personality Driven) Signs*

Here's another site 
Source: Boxing Tip #23: How to See Punches | Commando Boxing - How to Box
*Is the hand really quicker than the eye?*
"The human eye can detect movement discontinuities up to 60 frames per second. Your hands certainly cannot move that fast."


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## Anarax (Oct 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it


The key word here is *before*, your eyes must see what there is to react to before you react. The only way your statement makes sense is if my opponent 1) throws the punch *then *2) decides to throw it after he already threw it. Meaning he only decided the throw the punch after he threw it. It makes no sense


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## Anarax (Oct 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> "Before they decide to punch" is the ready position that people get in that is required to perform the action


If they do punch from that position, then they already decided to do so, hence is why they got into that position.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2017)

Anarax said:


> The only way your statement makes sense is if my opponent 1) throws the punch *then *2) decides to throw it after he already threw it. Meaning he only decided the throw the punch after he threw it. It makes no sense


Nah dude.  That's not what I'm saying.   Not sure how you even got that.  I've said multiple times.
1. you decide what attack you want to do.
2. you decide when do the attack.

In the video below
#1 can be seen in the low side horse stance and movement that MJW takes.  The video shows him in a low stance that allows him to do his side kick. He does it multiple times against different people and they still didn't pick it up.  If he stands like that then you know what he's trying to do. In the context of the video, it's a side kick.

#2 can be seen by the specific movement that happens right before the attacking.  Once you know what your opponent wants to do based on his stance and movement, then the only thing left is to figure out when he's going to side kick you. If you know #1 then you can start looking for the tell-tale sign that will alert you to when he has made the decision to actually kick.  
Look at the video below it's all there.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> If they do punch from that position, then they already decided to do so, hence is why they got into that position.


You aren't going to understand and I don't know how to make it any clearer.


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## Anarax (Oct 24, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> You aren't going to understand and I don't know how to make it any clearer.


There isn't anything you're saying to be understood. You just post a bunch of videos(which are either fake or irrelevant to your point). If you want to believe that you can predict techniques then go right ahead. Are there physical tells? Yes. Is there a way to be aware of everything and sense things before they happen? No. Believe whatever you want


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> There isn't anything you're saying to be understood. You just post a bunch of videos(which are either fake or irrelevant to your point). If you want to believe that you can predict techniques then go right ahead. Are there physical tells? Yes. Is there a way to be aware of everything and sense things before they happen? No. Believe whatever you want


Yes.  I will definitely believe in something that I've done and have taught others to do.  No need to tell me to believe in it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 24, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> It is very simple as long as you don't look at it like trying to predict the future.  Thinking of it that way will point you in the wrong direction.  An attack is 2 things.  You decide what you "WANT TO DO" which shows in how you stand and move (this often given away by creep stance, stance position, and distance).  Then you decide "WHEN TO DO IT"  which was the flex in Micheal Jai White's shoulder.
> 
> "Before they decide to punch" is the ready position that people get in that is required to perform the action.  In the case of the video it was a "creep stance" and a calm before the punch.
> 
> Remember.  There are 2 decisions that you make for an attack "What you want to do" and "When you do it"  This is only for an attack, countering and defense is different.


Okay, I think I get what you are saying, and where the disconnect is. You mean after they choose the weapon (right cross, for instance), but before they choose the moment. So, not the tells of the beginning of the punch, but as they move into position to be ready for it.

Edit: fixed a typo...or two


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## Martial D (Oct 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, I think I get what you are saying, and where the disconnect is. You mean after they choose the weapon (right cross, for instance), but before they choose the moment. So, not the tells of the beginning of the punch, but as they move into position to be ready for it.
> 
> Edit: fixed a typo...or two



A really obvious example of this is with spinning attacks. I can almost always tell when someone intends to throw some spinning shiz just by their change of posture and stance.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, I think I get what you are saying, and where the disconnect is. You mean after they choose the weapon (right cross, for instance), but before they choose the moment. So, not the tells of the beginning of the punch, but as they move into position to be ready for it.
> 
> Edit: fixed a typo...or two


Correct. Exactly.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2017)

Martial D said:


> A really obvious example of this is with spinning attacks. I can almost always tell when someone intends to throw some spinning shiz just by their change of posture and stance.


Exactly


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2017)

It just occurred to me that MJW is fighting from a low horse stance.  In the past there has been discussion about if the low stance is practical or if it's just for making the legs atrong.  In the video he lowers his stance which puts his face out of range.  The low stance forces his opponent to overextend. The other thing that the low stance is doing is causing tunnel vision in his opponents.  They are so focused with trying to get to the head that they forget about the danger from the legs.

I have videos of me using the same strategy.  It's simple and it works but yor legs have to be strong in the event that your opponent doesn't approach before your legs start to burn.


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