# Ninja guy and Wado guy doing same technique..???



## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 19, 2005)

Hello friends,

In these links below:

www.geocities.com/wadokai_indonesia/ninja_wado.zip

www.geocities.com/john_lord_b3/ninja_wado.zip


contained a zip file with two clips in it. The first clip is Mr. Bud Malmstrom of Bujinkan demonstrating a Ninja knife defense technique, the second clip is Mr. Otsuka (Sr) demonstrating Wado-ryu Karate knife defense. (I hope I am not offending any copyrights law here. If Mr. Otsuka (Jr) or Mr. Malmstrom objected their clips being displayed here I will apologize and take off the clips immediately).

Amazingly, both respectable sensei are showing almost exact same technique, maybe 75%-80% similarities (and some people even said that they're 100% similar).

Isn't this very strange, a Ninja guy and a Karate guy, doing a similar technique, a technique which looks like Aikido or Jujutsu.

*I do not imply that these two styles (Bujinkan and Wado-ryu) are connected. I know Mr. Otsuka studied Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu, but there are no record of his Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu style transmitted within the Bujinkan, and I never heard of Mr. Otsuka studied any of the 9 schools transmitted within the Bujinkan.*

So the question is: How come two very different group, coming from very different lineages, and with apparent lack of knowledge regarding each others (average Bujinkan shihans I know never heard of Wado, and average Wado blackbelts I know never heard of Bujinkan), but somehow managed to execute a technique in a very similar way?

Is this an example of "parallel evolution" which means that this technique is so effective that more than one sensei developed the same technique independent from each other?

Or, maybe this is just another proof that even in Japan they still have "keep up with the Joneses" mentality?

With respect & no intention to offend anyone

Denny

PS: If one of the links above doesnt work try another, or wait for 15-30 minutes. The geocities servers has very limited bandwith and very often got crowded, which will result in an error message.


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## Andrew Green (Nov 19, 2005)

Wado ryu is rooted not just in karate, but also in Jujitsu.

It's not really that big of a surprise, bothe are from a traditional Japanese style, likely with overlapping lineages at some point.  Even if not they would constantly be seeing the others stuff.

I'd imagine if you looked hard enough you'd find others people from other styles demoing the exact same thing as well.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 19, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I'd imagine if you looked hard enough you'd find others people from other styles demoing the exact same thing as well.


 
Yep,that's what I observed, I see Aikido people doing the same technique as well..

Looking at techniques like this makes us realize that the stylistic boundaries between martial arts are sometimes blurred   Or maybe there wasn't supposed to be any boundaries at all?


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## JAMJTX (Nov 19, 2005)

Styles do not have to be directly connected via lineage or cross training to share similar techniques.

Japanese martial arts are all based on the same proven principles and theories.  Applying these principles and theries to human anatomy and the dynamics of combat will produce only a limited number of techniques.  Sure, it's a lot of techniques, but still there are only so many.  Even if 2 instructors never met and never trained in the same art, they will likely come to the same conclusions and develop similar techniques.

Differences in styles, producing minor variations of the same technique, can be accounted for by personality differences, varied body types and sizes among the instructors and even cultural influences.  In this example, we see Shiho Nage, which also exists in Aikido, most Jujutsu styles, Goju Ryu Karate and even Tai CHi Chuan and other Chinese arts.  The only real difference is in the atemi, which is most likely just that instructors preferred way to stun and off-balance the attacker.


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## arnisador (Nov 19, 2005)

Parallel evolution or one borrowing from the other...both explanations seem plausible to me!


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## BlackCatBonz (Nov 19, 2005)

i learned the exact same thing in a kempo class....with the disarm.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 22, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> Styles do not have to be directly connected via lineage or cross training to share similar techniques.
> 
> Japanese martial arts are all based on the same proven principles and theories. Applying these principles and theries to human anatomy and the dynamics of combat will produce only a limited number of techniques. Sure, it's a lot of techniques, but still there are only so many. Even if 2 instructors never met and never trained in the same art, they will likely come to the same conclusions and develop similar techniques.
> 
> In this example, we see Shiho Nage, which also exists in Aikido, most Jujutsu styles, Goju Ryu Karate and even Tai CHi Chuan and other Chinese arts.


 
Ahh... thank you for your comments. We really should establish a "japanese martial arts technical synonims dictionary". So Aikido's shiho nage is a bit similar to Wado's hiki otoshi dori and to Ninja's katate nage.. 

reminds me of an old serbian proverb "there is nothing new under the sun!"


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 22, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Parallel evolution or one borrowing from the other...both explanations seem plausible to me!


 
Yep, I think that way too! And this also goes to show that not all Ninja techniques are mysterious


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## BlackCatBonz (Nov 22, 2005)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Yep, I think that way too! And this also goes to show that not all Ninja techniques are mysterious


 
i agree with you there......thats not to say they didnt have the market cornered with their stealth though.


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