# A sad state of affairs...



## Hanzou

So I'm watching this video in absolute shock. A blue belt in Bjj being unable to do a basic takedown on a standing opponent despite having ample opportunity. I don't know what the rules were for this exercise, but no one grabbed a sleeve, under hooked, gripped the back of the neck, clenched, went for a single leg, or anything. It seemed like they were all doing some lazy waist grab.

So what's the cause of this? Is this all because of sport Bjj, or is something else occurring here?


----------



## Steve

Blue belts have holes in their game .


----------



## Hanzou

Steve said:


> Blue belts have holes in their game .



I'm a higher rank than blue and definitely have holes in my game, but I figured out how to grab limbs and cloth as a white belt.


----------



## Steve

You might have different holes than this guy.


----------



## jobo

Hanzou said:


> So I'm watching this video in absolute shock. A blue belt in Bjj being unable to do a basic takedown on a standing opponent despite having ample opportunity. I don't know what the rules were for this exercise, but no one grabbed a sleeve, under hooked, gripped the back of the neck, clenched, went for a single leg, or anything. It seemed like they were all doing some lazy waist grab.
> 
> So what's the cause of this? Is this all because of sport Bjj, or is something else occurring here?



Isnt it just what we discussed on the other thread ? Bjj isnt particularly effective against a good striker with good movement


----------



## Hanzou

jobo said:


> Isnt it just what we discussed on the other thread ? Bjj isnt particularly effective against a good striker with good movement



Check out the Gracie challenge vids. Old school Bjj did just fine against strikers of various caliber. Royce took down competitive boxers and kickboxers in a little over a minute in the old UFC.

Something's changed, and I think it's because of the sport scene.


----------



## jobo

Hanzou said:


> Check out the Gracie challenge vids. Old school Bjj did just fine against strikers of various caliber. Royce took down competitive boxers and kickboxers in a little over a minute in the old UFC.
> 
> Something's changed, and I think it's because of the sport scene.


Yes but the gracies were exceptional, this appears to be some reasonably average students, up against a boxing instructor, so he js presumably quite good where they are Not particulsrly so,

Im sure the graces could have ties him i. Up in knots very quickly, but then you would need a world class striker to complete against for it to mean anything


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Honestly, I’d suspect that’s pretty typical these days. It takes a significant amount of time and work getting comfortable entering for a takedown against a skilled boxer. Most BJJ schools these days seem to spend the vast majority of their time just on ground grappling with no strikes. MMA classes do much better in this regard, but unfortunately in schools that have both MMA and BJJ it seems that only a minority of students cross over and do both.

I do agree with the narrator that this sort of exercise is much easier for the grappler if they also have some experience with striking. That experience makes them more comfortable getting into the pocket for a good shot instead of putting their head down and rushing in from out of range the way most of the students in the video were trying to do.


----------



## jobo

jobo said:


> Yes but the gracies were exceptional, this appears to be some reasonably average students, up against a boxing instructor, so he js presumably quite good where they are Not particulsrly so,
> 
> Im sure the graces could have ties him i. Up in knots very quickly, but then you would need a world class striker to complete against for it to mean anything



Plus the more room you have to move, the more it favours the stiker, , stick them in a tight space were you can trap them in a corner and it may have had a different iut come or maybe not, they seemed to loose enthuiasm arter they had eated a couple of stiff jabs


----------



## Tony Dismukes

jobo said:


> Yes but the gracies were exceptional, this appears to be some reasonably average students, up against a boxing instructor, so he js presumably quite good where they are Not particulsrly so,
> 
> Im sure the graces could have ties him i. Up in knots very quickly, but then you would need a world class striker to complete against for it to mean anything


Yeah, there’s a real difference between someone who grew up in the art vs a casual hobbyist blue belt. Royce wasn’t actually in the top tier of BJJ competitors, but he was a professional with a lifetime of experience.


----------



## Hanzou

jobo said:


> Yes but the gracies were exceptional, this appears to be some reasonably average students, up against a boxing instructor, so he js presumably quite good where they are Not particulsrly so,
> 
> Im sure the graces could have ties him i. Up in knots very quickly, but then you would need a world class striker to complete against for it to mean anything



If the flaw is in Bjj itself, it wouldn't have mattered how exceptional the Gracies were, they (and their students) wouldn't have been able to deal with strikers.

Again, I believe its the training focus in modern schools. Coming out of a Relson Gracie affiliate, I know that our fundamentals program was loaded with takedowns and clench fighting. I saw none of that in the video above.


----------



## Hanzou

Tony Dismukes said:


> I do agree with the narrator that this sort of exercise is much easier for the grappler if they also have some experience with striking. That experience makes them more comfortable getting into the pocket for a good shot instead of putting their head down and rushing in from out of range the way most of the students in the video were trying to do.



I can agree with this. My background in karate and boxing definitely made me more adept at controlling range and setting up better takedowns because I was able to trade punches and judge distance.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Hanzou said:


> I can agree with this. My background in karate and boxing definitely made me more adept at controlling range and setting up better takedowns because I was able to trade punches and judge distance.


Same here with my Muay Thai experience.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Hanzou said:


> I can agree with this. My background in karate and boxing definitely made me more adept at controlling range and setting up better takedowns because I was able to trade punches and judge distance.





Tony Dismukes said:


> Same here with my Muay Thai experience.


I believe this is why Royce went to the trouble of earning a black belt in karate. Not because he wanted to use karate techniques, but to give him the understanding of striking range and the ability to read a striking opponent.


----------



## jobo

Hanzou said:


> If the flaw is in Bjj itself, it wouldn't have mattered how exceptional the Gracies were, they (and their students) wouldn't have been able to deal with strikers.
> 
> Again, I believe its the training focus in modern schools. Coming out of a Relson Gracie affiliate, I know that our fundamentals program was loaded with takedowns and clench fighting. I saw none of that in the video above.


That not a reasonable argument, if you take exceptional atheletes and a decade or so to learn bjj, they they will be pretty dam good, maybe they could take down an exceptional boxer in a ring were movement is limited, maybe not, 

Average atheletes are average atheletes no matter what they learn, against a much better athelete of any style neVqcer mind boxing they will struggle.

Its pointless identifying exceptional bjjers as proof of its general effectivness, as generally they are just average


----------



## Hanzou

jobo said:


> That not a reasonable argument, if you take exceptional atheletes and a decade or so to learn bjj, they they will be pretty dam good, maybe they could take down an exceptional boxer in a ring were movement is limited, maybe not,
> 
> Average atheletes are average atheletes no matter what they learn, against a much better athelete of any style neVqcer mind boxing they will struggle.
> 
> Its pointless identifying exceptional bjjers as proof of its general effectivness, as generally they are just average



Eh... But the entire family isn't full of exceptional athletes and they all did fine against strikers. Rorion (sp?) and Relson definitely aren't known to be exceptional professional fighters, but those guys could stuff strikers just fine.

Also there's plenty of exceptional athletes in Kung Fu/Wushu (for example) and they aren't exactly lighting the world on fire with their practical Kung Fu.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

jobo said:


> That not a reasonable argument, if you take exceptional atheletes and a decade or so to learn bjj, they they will be pretty dam good, maybe they could take down an exceptional boxer in a ring were movement is limited, maybe not,
> 
> Average atheletes are average atheletes no matter what they learn, against a much better athelete of any style neVqcer mind boxing they will struggle.
> 
> Its pointless identifying exceptional bjjers as proof of its general effectivness, as generally they are just average


Not necessarily disagreeing, but I will point out that most of the Gracies (Royce in particular) are not exceptional athletes in the sense of having above average genetic gifts. They are exceptional in the sense of training from an early age with top-notch coaches and having a lot expected from them. That sort of learning environment tends to produce superior athletes.


----------



## jobo

Hanzou said:


> Eh... But the entire family isn't full of exceptional athletes and they all did fine against strikers. Rorion (sp?) and Relson definitely aren't known to be exceptional professional fighters, but those guys could stuff strikers just fine.
> 
> Also there's plenty of exceptional athletes in Kung Fu/Wushu (for example) and they aren't exactly lighting the world on fire with their practical Kung Fu.


Your arguing with things i havent said again.

I didnt say they were profesional fighters, i dpsaid they were exceptional atheletes,

Is that actually in doubt?

Abd unless the acerage bjj is as good as the graces, which they clearly can not be, then what the gracies could do, has no bearing at all on what the average bjj can do, just as marvin haggler had no bearing on my boxing skills


----------



## jobo

Tony Dismukes said:


> Not necessarily disagreeing, but I will point out that most of the Gracies (Royce in particular) are not exceptional athletes in the sense of having above average genetic gifts. They are exceptional in the sense of training from an early age with top-notch coaches and having a lot expected from them. That sort of learning environment tends to produce superior athletes.


Maybe, that ztill makes them exceptional atheletes,


----------



## Tony Dismukes

jobo said:


> Maybe, that ztill makes them exceptional atheletes,


It does, but we’re starting to see the difference genetic gifts make now that BJJ has spread and some people who also have exceptional natural ability are coming up with the same level of hard work and great coaching that the Gracie’s had.


----------



## Hanzou

jobo said:


> Your arguing with things i havent said again.
> 
> I didnt say they were profesional fighters, i dpsaid they were exceptional atheletes,
> 
> Is that actually in doubt?
> 
> Abd unless the acerage bjj is as good as the graces, which they clearly can not be, then what the gracies could do, has no bearing at all on what the average bjj can do, just as marvin haggler had no bearing on my boxing skills



My point was that if the training is off, then it doesn't matter how much athleticism you have, you're not beating a professional fighter.


----------



## pdg

Hanzou said:


> I can agree with this. My background in karate and boxing definitely made me more adept at controlling range and setting up better takedowns because I was able to trade punches and judge distance.



That's interesting how a bit of understanding in striking arts helped your grappling.

Weren't you one of the proponents of "striking works against strikers but grappling works against grapplers and strikers" or something along those lines?

If that were actually true and you didn't need to understand striking to beat a striker using grappling, that boxer (who really didn't look like he was putting in much effort at all) should have been down many times.


----------



## CB Jones

Reality is.....the more skilled fighter usually wins. 

Lower skill level grapplers are gonna struggle against higher skilled strikers and vice versa.

When it’s equally skilled opponents then individual advantages (speed, strength, power, toughness, etc...) often time becomes the difference maker.

That’s the reason Rickson Gracie was so great....most times he was the most skilled in the match.


----------



## Hanzou

pdg said:


> That's interesting how a bit of understanding in striking arts helped your grappling.



And vice versa.



> Weren't you one of the proponents of "striking works against strikers but grappling works against grapplers and strikers" or something along those lines?
> 
> If that were actually true and you didn't need to understand striking to beat a striker using grappling, that boxer (who really didn't look like he was putting in much effort at all) should have been down many times.



And I stand by that statement. Obviously if you have the opportunity to learn both, you should do that. However, if you can only learn one, grappling will give you more bang for your buck.

The problem is that those Bjj practitioners aren't learning proper takedowns for whatever reason. You should be taught how to close distance, how to clench, and how to take someone down in your first week or two of Bjj, and none of that was on display. At the very least, you should be taught how to do a proper shot.

That lack of takedown skill makes sense if the only thing you're doing is learning is how to deal with someone else who is trying to take you down as well. As I said, that's a sad state of affairs. What I saw in that video isn't the Bjj I was trained in.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Hanzou said:


> That lack of takedown skill makes sense if the only thing you're doing is learning is how to deal with someone else who is trying to take you down as well. As I said, that's a sad state of affairs. What I saw in that video isn't the Bjj I was trained in.


This is the drawback of bjj competition, that other TMAs often have. If you spend all your time sparring/rolling with someone who has the same style as you, you never learn how to handle people with different styles. Not every BJJ school does that, but a lot do, just like how not every (pick your TMA style) does that, but a lot do.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Hanzou said:


> And vice versa.
> 
> 
> 
> And I stand by that statement. Obviously if you have the opportunity to learn both, you should do that. However, if you can only learn one, grappling will give you more bang for your buck.
> 
> The problem is that those Bjj practitioners aren't learning proper takedowns for whatever reason. You should be taught how to close distance, how to clench, and how to take someone down in your first week or two of Bjj, and none of that was on display. At the very least, you should be taught how to do a proper shot.
> 
> That lack of takedown skill makes sense if the only thing you're doing is learning is how to deal with someone else who is trying to take you down as well. As I said, that's a sad state of affairs. What I saw in that video isn't the Bjj I was trained in.


Learning the basic principles of closing the gap is one thing. Developing the skill and confidence to do it against a skilled boxer who is using jabs and good footwork is another. Not many people get that in their first week.

Which is why I wish more BJJ schools devoted more time towards helping students develop that skill. I have nothing against the sport side of BJJ. I just don’t want to see it lead to abandonment of the martial art.


----------



## Hanzou

Tony Dismukes said:


> Learning the basic principles of closing the gap is one thing. Developing the skill and confidence to do it against a skilled boxer who is using jabs and good footwork is another. Not many people get that in their first week.
> 
> Which is why I wish more BJJ schools devoted more time towards helping students develop that skill. I have nothing against the sport side of BJJ. I just don’t want to see it lead to abandonment of the martial art.



Tony, what is your view on white belts learning to roll from their knees? Do you think they would be better off rolling from standing position in order to better develop takedown skill? Just curious.


----------



## Hanzou

kempodisciple said:


> This is the drawback of bjj competition, that other TMAs often have. If you spend all your time sparring/rolling with someone who has the same style as you, you never learn how to handle people with different styles. Not every BJJ school does that, but a lot do, just like how not every (pick your TMA style) does that, but a lot do.



The difference in Bjj is that the rolling/sparring is still invaluable despite the person you're sparring with being from the same style. Having varying types of people on top of you or trying to impose their will upon you is a very important aspect of fighting. Additionally, being able to recover when someone is taking YOU down is also very important.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Hanzou said:


> The difference in Bjj is that the rolling/sparring is still invaluable despite the person you're sparring with being from the same style. Having varying types of people on top of you or trying to impose their will upon you is a very important aspect of fighting. Additionally, being able to recover when someone is taking YOU down is also very important.


Oh, I absolutely agree with that. But, it also means that if you go to one of those insulated schools, that you need to do some sort of cross-training, to make those skills more practical.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Hanzou said:


> Tony, what is your view on white belts learning to roll from their knees? Do you think they would be better off rolling from standing position in order to better develop takedown skill? Just curious.


I think that wrestling from the knees is one of the most counterproductive aspects of BJJ training. If you’re going to start on the ground, then start from a realistic position that might result from a takedown (typically with one person on top).

One of my preferred drills for ground work is to begin with one partner executing an unresisted takedown. Once the other person hits the mat, then the exercise goes live. The person who was taken down works to sweep, submit, or stand up. The person who did the takedown tries to stay on top, hold their opponent down, and submit them.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think that wrestling from the knees is one of the most counterproductive aspects of BJJ training. If you’re going to start on the ground, then start from a realistic position that might result from a takedown (typically with one person on top).
> 
> One of my preferred drills for ground work is to begin with one partner executing an unresisted takedown. Once the other person hits the mat, then the exercise goes live. The person who was taken down works to sweep, submit, or stand up. The person who did the takedown tries to stay on top, hold their opponent down, and submit them.


Doesn't working from the knees allow it to start off neutral though, so that you have a chance to get dominant position? To me it makes sense to have times both when you're working from a position vs. competing for positions.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> So what's the cause of this?


If you play 100% defense, when your opponent attacks you, you just keep moving back, or moving sideway, it will be very difficult for your opponent to obtain a clinch on you. You have to move in when your opponent moves in, or you have to move in faster than your opponent's retreat.

In order to establish a successful clinch, your hands have to be closer to your opponent's body. If you use your hands to guard your own head, your hand will be too far away from your opponent's body. This is why the "rhino guard" is invented to solve this problem.

The "rhino guard" can

- guard your own head, and
- keep your hands closer to your opponent's body.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

kempodisciple said:


> Doesn't working from the knees allow it to start off neutral though, so that you have a chance to get dominant position? To me it makes sense to have times both when you're working from a position vs. competing for positions.


The problem is that working from your knees teaches you to fight for dominant position in an unrealistic and unproductive manner. If you and your opponent are both on your knees, the correct way to get to a dominant position is to *stand up*. Time spent doing crappy pseudo-wrestling from your knees is time you could spend either working on takedowns or practicing groundwork from the positions that you will realistically be in after a takedown.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you play 100% defense, when your opponent attacks you, you just keep moving back, or moving sideway, it will be very difficult for your opponent to obtain a clinch on you.
> 
> You have to move in when your opponent moves in, or you can move in faster than your opponent's retreat.


In the video, the boxer isn't playing 100% defense. He's attacking with jabs, then retreating just enough to stuff the jiu-jiteiros crappy entries while still throwing punches. Their entries are crappy because they don't understand the proper timing or distancing and they are intimidated by the punches.

I'm not worried about being able to clinch (or strike) someone who is just running away from me. I want to be able to clinch someone who is trying to hurt me.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Tony Dismukes said:


> they are intimidated by the punches.


What's the best way to deal with the head punch? It may be the most important question in the MA.

So the issue is you will need to protect your head well enough when you move in. I have spend years and years trying to solve this issue. This is why I came up:

1. Rhino guard,
2. Chinese zombie guard.
3. Double spears guard,
4. Octopus guard.

I would love to hear other good solutions on this problem.


----------



## drop bear

Most people probably wouldn't take down our boxing instructor either.

There are ways to strike that make take downs hard.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

The boxer has T-shirt on. If your right hand can slide down from his neck, and use your 4 fingers to grab on his shirt (under neck) from inside while your thumb is on the outside, you can pull yourself into him and establish a clinch.

Again, your hand has to be closer to his head.


----------



## Headhunter

Gasp....the almighty unbeatable Bjj lost to a striker....wow never thought could ever happen....


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

I think BJJ guys also need to train the striking skill too. You can use

- uppercut to establish a head lock, or over hook.
- hook punch to establish an under hook.
- back fist to establish an arm control.
- ...

By using striking, it can help you to obtain the clinch that you are looking for.

Here is an example that hook punches are used to establish under hook.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Headhunter said:


> Gasp....the almighty unbeatable Bjj lost to a striker....wow never thought could ever happen....


If you don't train how to use your BJJ skill to deal with a boxer, your BJJ skill is not fully tested. This is true for all MA systems. If you just test your skill in your own style, you will never be able to find out your style weakness.

MMA is the best environment for testing.


----------



## Hanzou

Headhunter said:


> Gasp....the almighty unbeatable Bjj lost to a striker....wow never thought could ever happen....



Nah, more like a lackluster Bjj school that doesn't  teach proper takedowns put out a video to try to prove a point, but instead ended up embarrassing themselves and their students.


----------



## hoshin1600

And so it begins........
All arts decline and are susceptible to degradation.  I laugh to myself when BJJ guys make claims that their art is better. Their proof is that the karate or other arts that they have seen or encountered is not as proficient as BJJ.  The problem is the McDojo factor.  Not every student in every school can be a great martial artist. It is inevitable that not great teachers will be produced and in turn their students will be less then them.  Pure numbers are against any style remaining competent.  Other styles like karate have been around 100 years.  We will see how BJJ looks in a hundred years.  The good standards that the Gracie family has maintained won't last forever. In my opinion it's already in decline and getting worse.


----------



## pdg

hoshin1600 said:


> Not every student in every school can be a great martial artist. It is inevitable that not great teachers will be produced and in turn their students will be less then them.



While I mainly agree with your reasoning on this, there are some of us that strive to surpass their teachers and have teachers that support that aim.

With information availability as it is now, that's easier than ever before.

A not great teacher that wants their students to be better than they are can actually be a great teacher - the real problem is teachers who want to sit on a pedestal of perfection (when they're far from perfect) and don't like students passing them in skill.


----------



## Hanzou

hoshin1600 said:


> And so it begins........
> All arts decline and are susceptible to degradation.  I laugh to myself when BJJ guys make claims that their art is better. Their proof is that the karate or other arts that they have seen or encountered is not as proficient as BJJ.  The problem is the McDojo factor.  Not every student in every school can be a great martial artist. It is inevitable that not great teachers will be produced and in turn their students will be less then them.  Pure numbers are against any style remaining competent.  Other styles like karate have been around 100 years.  We will see how BJJ looks in a hundred years.  The good standards that the Gracie family has maintained won't last forever. In my opinion it's already in decline and getting worse.




Thing is that Bjj is also over 100 years old (I'm pretty sure it outdates Funakoshi introducing Karate to Japan) and the standards were pretty much maintained in that time frame. Now we simply have instructors emphasizing the ground game to the point where they're not teaching proper takedowns. Additionally we should also keep in mind that the entire thing isn't busted like it is in other systems. Even Bjj practicioners coming out of schools like that one are learning good stuff, and they're missing out on an aspect of their game that they can pick up elsewhere fairly easily.


----------



## Headhunter

Hanzou said:


> Nah, more like a lackluster Bjj school that doesn't  teach proper takedowns put out a video to try to prove a point, but instead ended up embarrassing themselves and their students.


Or simply the fact the other guy was just better....as pretty much everyone has said. It's the person not the style and the boxer was obviously better at his discipline that the jiu jitsu guy....which is how it'll always work. Whoever is better wins regardless of style


----------



## hoshin1600

Hanzou said:


> Thing is that Bjj is also over 100 years old (I'm pretty sure it outdates Funakoshi introducing Karate to Japan) and the standards were pretty much maintained in that time frame. Now we simply have instructors emphasizing the ground game to the point where they're not teaching proper takedowns. Additionally we should also keep in mind that the entire thing isn't busted like it is in other systems. Even Bjj practicioners coming out of schools like that one are learning good stuff, and they're missing out on an aspect of their game that they can pick up elsewhere fairly easily.


you always seem to pull facts from your "back side".
 Maeda didnt come to Brazil until 1914 but what he taught was Judo. it wasnt until Helio adapted judo and made it BJJ that i would count it as BJJ.  but for the sake of argument lets say it has been BJJ for 104 years. it dosent matter. it s a strawman argument. the point is that of numbers. the more people you have practicing an art the more watered down its going to get.  good instructors make good students but they only make a few great students all the others are average.  on the other side, average and bad instructors make consistent poor students and they make more of them.  so a good instructor will turn out a smaller number of good students then the poor instructor churning out poor future instructors.  one of BJJ's advantages has been its high standards to BB.  with the internet instruction and BJJ becoming more popular outside of the Gracie family those standards are going to slide down hill.
those who say karate is garbage dont realize that, what i am saying will happen to BJJ has already happened to karate.  i have seen the decline in my own life time.  


Hanzou said:


> Additionally we should also keep in mind that the entire thing isn't busted like it is in other systems.


and what i am saying is ...give it time.
now keep in mind i am comparing it to karate.  if you are comparing it to aikido or taichi or something when you say "busted"  ...that i cant argue.  but give it time and you will see the rise of Brazilian Mcdojo's coming to a neighborhood near you.  the UFC already tried to roll out MMA gyms for people that didnt want to actually compete.


----------



## Hanzou

Headhunter said:


> Or simply the fact the other guy was just better....as pretty much everyone has said. It's the person not the style and the boxer was obviously better at his discipline that the jiu jitsu guy....which is how it'll always work. Whoever is better wins regardless of style



The "boxer" is also a blue belt in Bjj from the same school in question. So he's well adept at avoiding takedowns from white belts.


----------



## hoshin1600

pdg said:


> While I mainly agree with your reasoning on this, there are some of us that strive to surpass their teachers and have teachers that support that aim.
> 
> With information availability as it is now, that's easier than ever before.
> 
> A not great teacher that wants their students to be better than they are can actually be a great teacher - the real problem is teachers who want to sit on a pedestal of perfection (when they're far from perfect) and don't like students passing them in skill.


my point is about numbers. eventually the poor will outnumber the good or great.


----------



## Hanzou

hoshin1600 said:


> you always seem to pull facts from your "back side".
> Maeda didnt come to Brazil until 1914 but what he taught was Judo. it wasnt until Helio adapted judo and made it BJJ that i would count it as BJJ.  but for the sake of argument lets say it has been BJJ for 104 years. it dosent matter. it s a strawman argument. the point is that of numbers. the more people you have practicing an art the more watered down its going to get.  good instructors make good students but they only make a few great students all the others are average.  on the other side, average and bad instructors make consistent poor students and they make more of them.  so a good instructor will turn out a smaller number of good students then the poor instructor churning out poor future instructors.  one of BJJ's advantages has been its high standards to BB.  with the internet instruction and BJJ becoming more popular outside of the Gracie family those standards are going to slide down hill.
> those who say karate is garbage dont realize that, what i am saying will happen to BJJ has already happened to karate.  i have seen the decline in my own life time.
> 
> and what i am saying is ...give it time.
> now keep in mind i am comparing it to karate.  if you are comparing it to aikido or taichi or something when you say "busted"  ...that i cant argue.  but give it time and you will see the rise of Brazilian Mcdojo's coming to a neighborhood near you.  the UFC already tried to roll out MMA gyms for people that didnt want to actually compete.


 
Outside of a few historical mistakes, I agree with everything you said here.

And yeah, I was talking about stuff like Aikido and Tai Chi. Karate still has Kyokushin and its descendants.


----------



## pdg

hoshin1600 said:


> my point is about numbers. eventually the poor will outnumber the good or great.



In that case, yes, definitely.

But honestly, is it really a problem anyway?

I look at it as the poor practitioners subsidise my training...

Take my tkd school - maybe 3/4 of the students are fairly poor, a few are reasonable and a very few are good or better.

If it weren't for the poor and not so good ones paying every month then the school just wouldn't be.

I try to work with the good or better to continue bringing myself up, and when I work with the not so good I occasionally see them step up (at least part of) a level.

Yes it's sometimes irksome when people use the poor as representative examples of the art - but I try to remember that they're not me, I can be better.

As for when I see them doing stuff hideously wrong? Yeah, I might make some internal sarcastic comments - but I do that everywhere anyway 

I think as long as there are some who are passionate and want to put in effort to improve then the ones who can't simply keep access available.

Oh, plus they're really easy to beat in competition which helps my vanity


----------



## DaveB

Hanzou said:


> Check out the Gracie challenge vids. Old school Bjj did just fine against strikers of various caliber. Royce took down competitive boxers and kickboxers in a little over a minute in the old UFC.
> 
> Something's changed, and I think it's because of the sport scene.


Perhaps it's because what one person can do with their training might be different to what another person can do with their training?

Either that or bjj sucks. It is on video after all.

I jest.


----------



## DaveB

Hanzou said:


> Outside of a few historical mistakes, I agree with everything you said here.
> 
> And yeah, I was talking about stuff like Aikido and Tai Chi. Karate still has Kyokushin and its descendants.


Lol@karate comment.


----------



## DaveB

Hanzou said:


> My point was that if the training is off, then it doesn't matter how much athleticism you have, you're not beating a professional fighter.


Do you think that because someone goes to an bjj school that they training like the top fighters in the Gracie family?


----------



## Hanzou

DaveB said:


> Do you think that because someone goes to an bjj school that they training like the top fighters in the Gracie family?



You're taking what I'm saying out of context. My point was that simply because someone is a exceptional athlete doesn't mean that they're going to be a good fighter. You have to be training in the correct MA as well.

Take Shawn Obasi for example; Solid athlete (at first) then became a huge joke because he was trying to bring pure Wing Chun into MMA. His trainers demanded that he utilize strikes from other MAs and he refused. After he got stomped a few times, he went back to teaching WC or whatever.

To better answer your question here; No, but you should at least be able to perform a decent takedown at Blue Belt.


----------



## DaveB

Hanzou said:


> You're taking what I'm saying out of context. My point was that simply because someone is a exceptional athlete doesn't mean that they're going to be a good fighter. You have to be training in the correct MA as well.
> 
> Take Shawn Obasi for example; Solid athlete (at first) then became a huge joke because he was trying to bring pure Wing Chun into MMA. His trainers demanded that he utilize strikes from other MAs and he refused. After he got stomped a few times, he went back to teaching WC or whatever.
> 
> To better answer your question here; No, but you should at least be able to perform a decent takedown at Blue Belt.



And my point was simply that a bunch of pro fighters winning fights with bjj is no reason to expect Joe Bloggs at the local club to be able to win fights.


----------



## Hanzou

DaveB said:


> And my point was simply that a bunch of pro fighters winning fights with bjj is no reason to expect Joe Bloggs at the local club to be able to win fights.



I never made that argument in the first place.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> So what's the cause of this? Is this all because of sport Bjj, or is something else occurring here?


Everything changes when punches come in and  things get even more difficult when someone is actively defending against takedown attempts.  Just because someone does BJJ doesn't mean that they won't have difficulty in taking someone down.  There is an assumption "I take BJJ so I can take anyone down."   This isn't true for most.   Get a conservative striker who understands the basic mechanics of a takedown and you're going to have a difficult time.

Most BJJ practitioners are probably used to doing takedowns against a non-punching opponent.  When punches come in, it's going to change the effectiveness of their take down.  The videos isn't shocking to me.  Very realistic in what is being said.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tony Dismukes said:


> Learning the basic principles of closing the gap is one thing. Developing the skill and confidence to do it against a skilled boxer who is using jabs and good footwork is another. Not many people get that in their first week.
> 
> Which is why I wish more BJJ schools devoted more time towards helping students develop that skill. I have nothing against the sport side of BJJ. I just don’t want to see it lead to abandonment of the martial art.


This is the same way that some practical TMA practitioners feel about their martial art.  The fact that you stated this makes me think that BJJ has already far on that path.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the best way to deal with the head punch? It may be the most important question in the MA.
> 
> So the issue is you will need to protect your head well enough when you move in. I have spend years and years trying to solve this issue. This is why I came up:
> 
> 1. Rhino guard,
> 2. Chinese zombie guard.
> 3. Double spears guard,
> 4. Octopus guard.
> 
> I would love to hear other good solutions on this problem.


The best way to deal with a punch is to not be afraid of it.   Respect the punch but don't feel it.   This will only happen when the practitioner knows when a punch is strong and when the punch is weak.  When there is opportunity and when there isn't.   Without this knowledge, the practitioner is going to have reckless action.


----------



## JowGaWolf

hoshin1600 said:


> And so it begins........
> All arts decline and are susceptible to degradation.  I laugh to myself when BJJ guys make claims that their art is better. Their proof is that the karate or other arts that they have seen or encountered is not as proficient as BJJ.  The problem is the McDojo factor.  Not every student in every school can be a great martial artist. It is inevitable that not great teachers will be produced and in turn their students will be less then them.  Pure numbers are against any style remaining competent.  Other styles like karate have been around 100 years.  We will see how BJJ looks in a hundred years.  The good standards that the Gracie family has maintained won't last forever. In my opinion it's already in decline and getting worse.


Everyone who takes BJJ isn't taking it to learn how to fight in the streets.  Some do it for exercise and some don't.  This will always be the case where people train with different focuses.


----------



## TMA17

I was going to start a new post (glad I didn't), but it fits in well here.  I took my first wrestling class ever this morning with a really good wrestling coach in the area.  It was a private lesson and I wanted to cross-train a bit in between BJJ.  Worked on takedown steps, footwork and sprawling.  I'm going to be sore tomorrow.  Wrestling is so intense on your body, and I'm not saying that in a bad way (although it can be if not careful).  The way this guy moved and shot in for the takedown was so fast.  Hard to stop that.  That's just the tip of the iceberg too.

In my first BJJ class we worked on a takedown from a front bear hug position.  I've haven't been at this school long enough to know how much they do.  My instructor studied under Almeida.  From what everyone has said though, BJJ is too ground focused for sport.  That has it's benefits though.

I really think Bruce Lee was right after all these years.  LOL

I would say with near certainty that a wrestler training for about a year, maybe even less, would have taken that guy in the video down.


----------



## Headhunter

TMA17 said:


> I was going to start a new post (glad I didn't), but it fits in well here.  I took my first wrestling class ever this morning with a really good wrestling coach in the area.  It was a private lesson and I wanted to cross-train a bit in between BJJ.  Worked on takedown steps, footwork and sprawling.  I'm going to be sore tomorrow.  Wrestling is so intense on your body, and I'm not saying that in a bad way (although it can be if not careful).  The way this guy moved and shot in for the takedown was so fast.  Hard to stop that.  That's just the tip of the iceberg too.
> 
> In my first BJJ class we worked on a takedown from a front bear hug position.  I've haven't been at this school long enough to know how much they do.  My instructor studied under Almeida.  From what everyone has said though, BJJ is too ground focused for sport.  That has it's benefits though.
> 
> I really think Bruce Lee was right after all these years.  LOL
> 
> I would say with near certainty that a wrestler training for about a year, maybe even less, would have taken that guy in the video down.


As was said above. Taking someone down in a grappling match is completely different to taking someone down when punches are coming in


----------



## DaveB

Hanzou said:


> I never made that argument in the first place.


No, but your extreme reaction to an everyday occurrence, i.e. somebody not being excellent while doing bjj, suggests otherwise.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

hoshin1600 said:


> And so it begins........
> All arts decline and are susceptible to degradation.  I laugh to myself when BJJ guys make claims that their art is better. Their proof is that the karate or other arts that they have seen or encountered is not as proficient as BJJ.  The problem is the McDojo factor.  Not every student in every school can be a great martial artist. It is inevitable that not great teachers will be produced and in turn their students will be less then them.  Pure numbers are against any style remaining competent.  Other styles like karate have been around 100 years.  We will see how BJJ looks in a hundred years.  The good standards that the Gracie family has maintained won't last forever. In my opinion it's already in decline and getting worse.


Actually, the spread of BJJ has lead to remarkable technical _advancement_. Just in the last 20 years or so, there have been significant technical improvements to the fundamentals as well as a host of new moves and deeper understanding of many positions. A large percentage of this advancement has come from outside the Gracie family. In fact, I'd say at this point there are more great instructors outside that Gracie family than in it.

The downside is that while exploring this deeper understanding of one aspect of the art (grappling), a significant portion of the BJJ community has chosen to neglect another important aspect of the art (defending against strikes and getting into position to apply that grappling skill against strikers.)


----------



## Hanzou

DaveB said:


> No, but your extreme reaction to an everyday occurrence, i.e. somebody not being excellent while doing bjj, suggests otherwise.



Proficient, not Excellent.


----------



## Hanzou

Headhunter said:


> As was said above. Taking someone down in a grappling match is completely different to taking someone down when punches are coming in



Wrestlers tend to have little trouble taking down strikers, and all they do is grapple with other grapplers.


----------



## Buka

The boxer in that video is skilled and comfortable in the drill. He is also a blue belt in BJJ and is well aware of this drill. It says so right under that vid.

_"Believe it or not, a lot of jiu jitsu practitioners believe they can get a good boxer to the ground. Unless you train takedowns regularly or train takedowns and clinching against someone throwing punches, your timing is going to be way off. With this said, it is a bit of a unfair comparison because the boxer is also a blue belt in jiu-jitsu and he knows the objective of this demo/drill. Which is enough to prevent a clinch or takedown. However, it also goes to show that it may not always be that easy getting a takedown or clinch on an opponent. Since this demo, we have been working a lot more takedown drills against striking."
_
As for starting a roll from the knees, I like it. I find it safer, in a less-nagging-little-injuries-way, than standing....unless you have really good mats. Not every place I've trained has had really good mats. 
When you're young, it's not that big a deal getting taken down twenty times a night. Once you're past your mid thirties, it becomes an entirely different animal. Yes, yes, you have to know how to fall. But in those twenty take downs a night, one or two are going to be off. And that's where those nagging little bruises, twists, cranks, pulls start to pile up. Especially if you're training three or four nights a week. I think for the first couple years in BJJ more starting from the knees should be done than starting from stand up.

In my first BJJ school, once every couple weeks we'd start from standing. Oh, my God, it was like Christmas for me! Then, down we'd eventually go - and it was back to work. But, man, I sure did enjoy those standing times. I can see if a student has no Martial experience that he/she would be better off with more stand up beginnings to rolls.

And let's keep in mind something as we watch that video. It was one drill out of, I'm sure, a boot load of different drills and training methods.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Hanzou said:


> Wrestlers tend to have little trouble taking down strikers, and all they do is grapple with other grapplers.


Not if the striker has experience with grappling.

What happens, which I think people don't seem to understand, is grapplers have an advantage in pure grapple vs pure striking, but that's not because grappling is somehow superior. Most people growing up have some sort of idea of how to throw a punch, it's mostly intuitive. So it does not take a whole lot to get a basic level of proficiency with that, to enable a takedown against someone who's never experienced. Everyone has probably also grappled a sibling or a friend at some point, but it's a lot less intuitive, and they don't gain that basic level of proficiency to learn how to stop someone going for a takedown or throw.


----------



## CB Jones

Hanzou said:


> Wrestlers tend to have little trouble taking down strikers, and all they do is grapple with other grapplers.



Again...its about the skill level of them opponents.

The 2 wrestlers my buddy knocked out thought the same thing.....a broken jaw and a broken orbital bone was a tough lesson to learn for them.


----------



## Headhunter

Hanzou said:


> Wrestlers tend to have little trouble taking down strikers, and all they do is grapple with other grapplers.


Yawn


----------



## Headhunter

CB Jones said:


> Again...its about the skill level of them opponents.
> 
> The 2 wrestlers my buddy knocked out thought the same thing.....a broken jaw and a broken orbital bone was a tough lesson to learn for them.


Yep fact is you go for a takedown. You use both hands so there's nothing left to guard your face with


----------



## TMA17

It definitely depends on the skill level in my opinion.  If the striker has 0 ground game and 0 tdd thenI'm not sure it won't be that hard? Clinch --> takedown.  If you know how to do even a mediocre double leg, you're probably somewhat ahead of the general population.  On the flip side, if you're poor at takedowns overall you enter into dangerous territory which can result in some clocks to the face.


----------



## Hanzou

CB Jones said:


> Again...its about the skill level of them opponents.
> 
> The 2 wrestlers my buddy knocked out thought the same thing.....a broken jaw and a broken orbital bone was a tough lesson to learn for them.



Anecdotal evidence is the best evidence.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Buka said:


> _train takedowns and clinching against someone throwing punches, ..._



Arm wrapping, arm wrapping, and still arm wrapping.

How to wrap your opponent's punching arms so he can no longer punch you should be trained in all MA styles.


----------



## Deleted member 39746

kempodisciple said:


> So it does not take a whole lot to get a basic level of proficiency with that



That i can attest to in 1 hour of TKD i could punch and kick well enough, maybe 2 hours.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

When your opponent punches at you, if you keep both arms stiff and move as inward circles, you should be able to create opportunity to establish your "arm wrap".


----------



## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Arm wrapping, arm wrapping, and still arm wrapping.
> 
> How to wrap your opponent's punching arms so he can no longer punch you should be trained in all MA styles.



Or you can just be like Kron and wrap them up and do a Guard Pull:


----------



## JR 137

Hanzou said:


> So I'm watching this video in absolute shock. A blue belt in Bjj being unable to do a basic takedown on a standing opponent despite having ample opportunity. I don't know what the rules were for this exercise, but no one grabbed a sleeve, under hooked, gripped the back of the neck, clenched, went for a single leg, or anything. It seemed like they were all doing some lazy waist grab.
> 
> So what's the cause of this? Is this all because of sport Bjj, or is something else occurring here?


All I really have to say is the guys in the video look like they’ve ever been formally shown how to do a takedown. They start from way too far out, are going in way too high, they’re bending too far at the waist, and there’s zero commitment to the takedown (in other words they seem way too scared to initiate it and are too quick to abandon it).

I’m not sure how typical this is of BJJ schools in general, having no BJJ school experience. Perhaps this is why they’re looking to wrestlers?

What’s the point in being great at ground fighting if you can’t get your opponent to the ground? No different than what’s the point of being great at shooting targets if you can’t get your gun out of the holster and/or turn the safety off.

You have to be able to get an unwilling opponent to the ground in order to beat them on the ground. Common sense. Although I constantly question why it’s called common sense when it’s not very common nowadays.


----------



## Hanzou

JR 137 said:


> All I really have to say is the guys in the video look like they’ve ever been formally shown how to do a takedown. They start from way too far out, are going in way too high, they’re bending too far at the waist, and there’s zero commitment to the takedown (in other words they seem way too scared to initiate it and are too quick to abandon it).
> 
> I’m not sure how typical this is of BJJ schools in general, having no BJJ school experience. Perhaps this is why they’re looking to wrestlers?
> 
> What’s the point in being great at ground fighting if you can’t get your opponent to the ground? No different than what’s the point of being great at shooting targets if you can’t get your gun out of the holster and/or turn the safety off.
> 
> You have to be able to get an unwilling opponent to the ground in order to beat them on the ground. Common sense. Although I constantly question why it’s called common sense when it’s not very common nowadays.



Again, coming from my background in Gjj, it's shocking to see schools neglecting the takedown. Jump and Pull Guard works against Wrestlers and Judoka and is a high percentage takedown, but we can't rely on it for everything, we need a well-rounded takedown game.


----------



## TMA17

It would be ideal if BJJ schools started off with Judo (or wrestling but keeping it in the family perferably Judo) and worked into BJJ from there.  There are some schools that do that but very hard to find.  You have to obviously get the guy to the ground first.


----------



## punisher73

Depends on the BJJ school.  The first BJJ school I went to did NO takedowns.  All of it was starting from the knees position.  The second BJJ school I went to starting all of it sparring from the feet and worked on getting the takedown before the ground game.


----------



## JR 137

punisher73 said:


> Depends on the BJJ school.  The first BJJ school I went to did NO takedowns.  All of it was starting from the knees position.  The second BJJ school I went to starting all of it sparring from the feet and worked on getting the takedown before the ground game.


I have zero BJJ experience, so I could be and probably am way off here, but if I was teaching ground fighting, the first thing I’d teach is how to get someone on the ground. Reliably too. My first “stripe” would be all takedowns, throws, falling, etc. Get past that, then here’s what to do.


----------



## Hanzou

JR 137 said:


> I have zero BJJ experience, so I could be and probably am way off here, but if I was teaching ground fighting, the first thing I’d teach is how to get someone on the ground. Reliably too. My first “stripe” would be all takedowns, throws, falling, etc. Get past that, then here’s what to do.



If you're teaching ground fighting, it's a good idea to actually teach ground fighting. If you want to spend 3-4 months learning nothing but throws and takedowns, you take Judo.

Here's a fundamentals curriculum schedule from a Relson Gracie affiliate (only one I can find online for some reason) where they show what every white belt is taught:

http://www.gracieohio.com/wp-conten...mentals-curriculum-schedule-june-aug-2018.jpg


----------



## JR 137

Hanzou said:


> If you're teaching ground fighting, it's a good idea to actually teach ground fighting. If you want to spend 3-4 months learning nothing but throws and takedowns, you take Judo.
> 
> Here's a fundamentals curriculum schedule from a Relson Gracie affiliate (only one I can find online for some reason) where they show what every white belt is taught:
> 
> http://www.gracieohio.com/wp-conten...mentals-curriculum-schedule-june-aug-2018.jpg


I see what you’re saying, but why not thoroughly teach how to get someone to the ground before you teach them what to do once they’re there? Work the clinch, standing grappling basics, and takedowns and throws first. Then get on the ground. In the whole grand scheme of things, 3-4 months isn’t that long. Or shorten it to 2-3 months.

I’ve got no issues with kneeling starts. Or sitting or even laying down starts. Those are situational drills, and they take away some daily pounding on the body.

Again, zero BJJ experience, so I’m sure I’m messing it up. When we teach new wrestlers, we always teach a takedown or 2 before we teach pinning combinations. How are you going to pin someone if you can’t take him down?


----------



## Hanzou

JR 137 said:


> I see what you’re saying, but why not thoroughly teach how to get someone to the ground before you teach them what to do once they’re there? Work the clinch, standing grappling basics, and takedowns and throws first. Then get on the ground. In the whole grand scheme of things, 3-4 months isn’t that long. Or shorten it to 2-3 months.



If you check out the curriculum, you are taught that in that period. However, the majority of what you're taught is fighting from the guard, dealing with side control, and how to escape bad positions. You're not going to be better at throws or takedowns than wrestlers and Judoka, but you'll be more than capable of taking down or throwing the average person. We make up for being worse at throws and takedowns by being better on the ground. I was tapping brown and black belt judo players as an advanced blue belt, that's how advanced BJJ ground grappling is. However, its foolish to not believe that there's not extensive cross-training going on between the major grappling systems and MMA. My old BJJ school offered Judo classes taught by a 5th dan Black belt for example.



> I’ve got no issues with kneeling starts. Or sitting or even laying down starts. Those are situational drills, and they take away some daily pounding on the body.
> 
> Again, zero BJJ experience, so I’m sure I’m messing it up. When we teach new wrestlers, we always teach a takedown or 2 before we teach pinning combinations. How are you going to pin someone if you can’t take him down?



I have issues with kneeling starts, and Tony stated them better than I could.

The point is that you should be able to take people down. The problem is that sport Bjj is a huge money maker for schools, and guard pulling and jumping guard are stupidly efficient and effective takedowns. That's the go-to for any BJJ player that has to deal with a better stand-up grappler, and bjj sport rules completely facilitate it.

That Relson school I linked to is probably getting murdered money wise by the sport-based BJJ schools in the area.


----------



## JR 137

Hanzou said:


> If you check out the curriculum, you are taught that in that period. However, the majority of what you're taught is fighting from the guard, dealing with side control, and how to escape bad positions. You're not going to be better at throws or takedowns than wrestlers and Judoka, but you'll be more than capable of taking down or throwing the average person. We make up for being worse at throws and takedowns by being better on the ground. I was tapping brown and black belt judo players as an advanced blue belt, that's how advanced BJJ ground grappling is. However, its foolish to not believe that there's not extensive cross-training going on between the major grappling systems and MMA. My old BJJ school offered Judo classes taught by a 5th dan Black belt for example.
> 
> 
> 
> I have issues with kneeling starts, and Tony stated them better than I could.
> 
> The point is that you should be able to take people down. The problem is that sport Bjj is a huge money maker for schools, and guard pulling and jumping guard are stupidly efficient and effective takedowns. That's the go-to for any BJJ player that has to deal with a better stand-up grappler, and bjj sport rules completely facilitate it.
> 
> That Relson school I linked to is probably getting murdered money wise by the sport-based BJJ schools in the area.


Tony makes very good points about the kneeling start, which I agree with. But it’s not all bad. If both people are proficient in throws and takedowns and defense of them, and they’re still practicing them regularly, than kneeling and the like starts aren’t inherently bad IMO. We didn’t start on our feet every time in wrestling. We’d put the guys into neutral-ish and common positions to start often enough. But we also did plenty of takedown practice. Part of warmups pretty much always consisted of takedowns. Or we’d go right into a takedown competition as the beginning of practice - get 2 points for the takedown and restart. 

So long as you’re consistently doing takedowns, there’s no problem with starting other ways too. Again, I’m a wrestler, so I’m seeing it through that lens.


----------



## DaveB

Hanzou said:


> Anecdotal evidence is the best evidence.


Said the guy extrapolating the state of bjj from one video.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Should BJJ guys train kick, punch, throw as well? It's up to you whether you want to be just a BJJ guy, or whether you want to be a MMA guy.

Here is a question. Should you go to

- boxing school to learn boxing,
- wrestling school to learn wrestling,
- BJJ school to learn BJJ,

you then integrate everything all by yourself, or should your MA teacher help you to do that integration?


----------



## DaveB

Hanzou said:


> If you're teaching ground fighting, it's a good idea to actually teach ground fighting. If you want to spend 3-4 months learning nothing but throws and takedowns, you take Judo.
> 
> Here's a fundamentals curriculum schedule from a Relson Gracie affiliate (only one I can find online for some reason) where they show what every white belt is taught:
> 
> http://www.gracieohio.com/wp-conten...mentals-curriculum-schedule-june-aug-2018.jpg



That's pretty hilarious considering that bjj's dominance in competition sparked a huge quest in every traditional style to prove their art was complete. 

Everyone missed the fact that mixed martial arts are mixed and if karate sux because bjj guys take them down easily, then so does boxing and every other striking art.


----------



## Buka

Hanzou said:


> If you check out the curriculum, you are taught that in that period. However, the majority of what you're taught is fighting from the guard, dealing with side control, and how to escape bad positions. You're not going to be better at throws or takedowns than wrestlers and Judoka, but you'll be more than capable of taking down or throwing the average person. We make up for being worse at throws and takedowns by being better on the ground. I was tapping brown and black belt judo players as an advanced blue belt, that's how advanced BJJ ground grappling is. However, its foolish to not believe that there's not extensive cross-training going on between the major grappling systems and MMA. My old BJJ school offered Judo classes taught by a 5th dan Black belt for example.
> 
> 
> 
> I have issues with kneeling starts, and Tony stated them better than I could.
> 
> The point is that you should be able to take people down. The problem is that sport Bjj is a huge money maker for schools, and guard pulling and jumping guard are stupidly efficient and effective takedowns. That's the go-to for any BJJ player that has to deal with a better stand-up grappler, and bjj sport rules completely facilitate it.
> 
> That Relson school I linked to is probably getting murdered money wise by the sport-based BJJ schools in the area.



The first class I took with Relson was in ninety five at the University of Hawaii. At the time there was a waiting list to train there. We were allowed to take the class as guests. I remember the very first thing we did, which we did for most of the class that particular night, standing grapple and take downs.

We were only in Honolulu for four months while our dogs went through the quarantine process. Didn't have time to be on a waiting list, so we took privates in Relson's garage. He is one of the nicest people I've ever met in Martial Arts. And I am the luckiest son of a B I've ever known.

I hope his schools are doing well. They're as good as any dojo I've ever been in.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Buka said:


> The first class I took with Relson was in ninety five at the University of Hawaii. At the time there was a waiting list to train there. We were allowed to take the class as guests. I remember the very first thing we did, which we did for most of the class that particular night, standing grapple and take downs.
> 
> We were only in Honolulu for four months while our dogs went through the quarantine process. Didn't have time to be on a waiting list, so we took privates in Relson's garage. He is one of the nicest people I've ever met in Martial Arts. And I am the luckiest son of a B I've ever known.
> 
> I hope his schools are doing well. They're as good as any dojo I've ever been in.


Seriously, who have you _not _trained with??


----------



## JR 137

kempodisciple said:


> Seriously, who have you _not _trained with??


Me. But then again, I’m nobody, so it’s all good


----------



## pdg

JR 137 said:


> Me. But then again, I’m nobody, so it’s all good



Me too, for the same reason


----------



## Hanzou

DaveB said:


> Said the guy extrapolating the state of bjj from one video.



The belief that BJJ lacks takedowns has been a growing belief for quite some time. My attitude towards this isnt coming from one video.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> The belief that BJJ lacks takedowns has been a growing belief for quite some time. My attitude towards this isnt coming from one video.


- Most BJJ guys like to use "pull guard" to by pass the throwing skill training.
- Some wrestlers like to use "rhino guard" to by pass the striking skill training.

Both short cut approaches are not good for the long term MA development.


----------



## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - Most BJJ guys like to use "pull guard" to by pass the throwing skill training.
> - Some wrestlers like to use "rhino guard" to by pass the striking skill training.
> 
> Both short cut approaches are not good for the long term MA development.



To be fair, high end sport Bjj players have little problem taking people down. Heck, Ryan Hall's takedown game is so high percentage that fighters are avoiding him in the UFC.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> To be fair, high end sport Bjj players have little problem taking people down. Heck, Ryan Hall's takedown game is so high percentage that fighters are avoiding him in the UFC.


Which take down move does he like to use? All he will need is just a good one.


----------



## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which take down move does he like to use? All you will need is just a good one.



I believe that it is a variation of the Imanari roll that goes into the 50/50 guard, but dont quote me on that.

Here's some examples:


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> I believe that it is a variation of the Imanari roll that goes into the 50/50 guard, but dont quote me on that.
> 
> Here's some examples:


Now I understand why BJJ uses the term "take down" instead of "throw". I think BJJ take down is different from Judo throw.


----------



## JR 137

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Now I understand why BJJ uses the term "take down" instead of "throw". I think BJJ take down is different from Judo throw.


Wrestling uses the both terms takedowns and throws. Stuff like single and double leg, and ankle picks are takedowns; things like suplexes and arm spin are throws. Depends on how you get the opponent down to the ground/mat. BJJ May have more what’s considered takedowns than throws, but I don’t know.


----------



## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Now I understand why BJJ uses the term "take down" instead of "throw". I think BJJ take down is different from Judo throw.



Not necessarily. There are Judo throws in old school Bjj, however, in more recent years Wrestling, Sombo, MMA, and competitive Bjj have kind of flooded out old school Judo throws because of no-gi grappling. Essentially, to be competitive in MMA and sport Bjj you need less technical throws. Because of that Judo throws have kind of taken a backseat to the more fluid (and generally easier) wrestling/sombo throws and takedowns.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Now I understand why BJJ uses the term "take down" instead of "throw". I think BJJ take down is different from Judo throw.


As I use the terms, a "takedown" is any grappling move which gets the opponent to the ground, while a "throw" is any move which picks the opponent into the air and then slams him to the ground. All throws are takedowns, but not all takedowns are throws.

Judo places more emphasis on throws, because the ideal is to slam an opponent into the ground so hard that they would be incapacitated if they were on a hard surface rather than a mat.

BJJ places more emphasis on just getting to the ground in the easiest way possible, because the ideal is to finish the opponent on the ground.

That said, BJJ has plenty of throws and Judo has plenty of techniques I would classify as takedowns rather than throws.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> As I use the terms, a "takedown" is any grappling move which gets the opponent to the ground, while a "throw" is any move which picks the opponent into the air and then slams him to the ground. All throws are takedowns, but not all takedowns are throws.
> 
> Judo places more emphasis on throws, because the ideal is to slam an opponent into the ground so hard that they would be incapacitated if they were on a hard surface rather than a mat.
> 
> BJJ places more emphasis on just getting to the ground in the easiest way possible, because the ideal is to finish the opponent on the ground.
> 
> That said, BJJ has plenty of throws and Judo has plenty of techniques I would classify as takedowns rather than throws.


I've always drawn a rather vague and greyish line between the terms by thinking of a takedown as staying connected on the way down (single-leg), versus a throw that is less connected (kote gaeshi). I tend to take that from the term _take_down - meaning you take them with you. It's relevant to BJJ, because you're more likely to want to keep that connection on the way, I'd think.

But that's just my take. I'm not sure whether it matches any common usage.


----------



## pdg

gpseymour said:


> I've always drawn a rather vague and greyish line between the terms by thinking of a takedown as staying connected on the way down (single-leg), versus a throw that is less connected (kote gaeshi). I tend to take that from the term _take_down - meaning you take them with you. It's relevant to BJJ, because you're more likely to want to keep that connection on the way, I'd think.
> 
> But that's just my take. I'm not sure whether it matches any common usage.



Not sure my usage is any more common, given a leg sweep can be a takedown...


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> Not sure my usage is any more common, given a leg sweep can be a takedown...


I apply either to a leg sweep (we use that term for Judo's osoto gari and similar techniques), because the person being swept can determine whether the technique is a throw or a takedown - so we train it as both. I had someone grab tight during one at a school I was visiting, so I converted it to a takedown and finished with a ground submission.


----------



## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> I've always drawn a rather vague and greyish line between the terms by thinking of a takedown as staying connected on the way down (single-leg), versus a throw that is less connected (kote gaeshi). I tend to take that from the term _take_down - meaning you take them with you. It's relevant to BJJ, because you're more likely to want to keep that connection on the way, I'd think.
> 
> But that's just my take. I'm not sure whether it matches any common usage.


I see what you’re saying, but I don’t agree. In a judo throw, the throwing judoka keeps constant contact with the opponent, maintains full control, and lands with him (that doesn’t mean landing on his back too). That doesn’t mean it’s gentle. The key is that control so he can follow up as necessary. If a judoka let go during a throw, I’m pretty sure no points would be given, and certainly no ippon would be awarded. Probably a warning and/or penalty of some sort too. 

The way you’re describing the difference, to me, sounds like a WWF body slam instead of, say, a Greco-Roman suplex. Alexander Karolin didn’t let go of any of his opponents when he suplexed them (if he did it wasn’t intentional and/or he was penalized). It was definitely a quite hard landing and a throw IMO.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> I see what you’re saying, but I don’t agree. In a judo throw, the throwing judoka keeps constant contact with the opponent, maintains full control, and lands with him (that doesn’t mean landing on his back too). That doesn’t mean it’s gentle. The key is that control so he can follow up as necessary. If a judoka let go during a throw, I’m pretty sure no points would be given, and certainly no ippon would be awarded. Probably a warning and/or penalty of some sort too.
> 
> The way you’re describing the difference, to me, sounds like a WWF body slam instead of, say, a Greco-Roman suplex. Alexander Karolin didn’t let go of any of his opponents when he suplexed them (if he did it wasn’t intentional and/or he was penalized). It was definitely a quite hard landing and a throw IMO.


My distinction isn't hold or let go - it's tight connection (which means you probably have to move down at least partway with them, as with the typical application in Judo) or a loose connection, like kote gaeshi. It's a vague distinction I've really only found useful when discussing the difference in follow-through. Some techniques can be either, sometimes (as in the example of the leg sweep) determined by the action of the person being thrown/taken down. It's not about gentle or not - just whether there's a body connection throughout that means nage (person doing the throw) is also going down, even if it's to a knee. Just a literal use of "takedown" as in "take them down with you" as opposed to "throw" as in "throw them down".

So, as you point out, most judo throws would be termed takedowns in my usage, as they are applied. And I'm not really consistent in the usage, except when I'm drawing the distinction between the two.


----------



## FriedRice

Hanzou said:


> So I'm watching this video in absolute shock. A blue belt in Bjj being unable to do a basic takedown on a standing opponent despite having ample opportunity. I don't know what the rules were for this exercise, but no one grabbed a sleeve, under hooked, gripped the back of the neck, clenched, went for a single leg, or anything. It seemed like they were all doing some lazy waist grab.
> 
> So what's the cause of this? Is this all because of sport Bjj, or is something else occurring here?




This is actually pretty easy to pull off. Most BJJ only people can't take punches to the face.  This demo rarely happens because most BJJ'ers wouldn't subject themselves to this and be embarrassed. And this Boxer was clearly pulling the power.....if he was going hard, he'd knock them out. And with MMA gloves on, it would be much worse for the BJJ'er.  And this Boxer is said to be an Instructor there....so he probably also trains BJJ or MMA.....and knows his TD defense.....so the BJJ'ers were respecting this + it's a promo video to prove their point...marketing the Boxer.

While in MMA, this is one of the better techniques to keep a grappler away.....good boxing, footwork, lots of striking while moving backwards & circling. This is how I keep the fight standing as I'm 70% striker. It's so much more effective with MMA gloves b/c a jab hurts so much more.

Granted that I'm comfortable with getting clinched/TD and can see the TD attempts, so I can take more chances & be more effective.....so probably, a pure Boxer should have much more problems, but I'm pretty sure this Boxing Instructor is MMA.


----------



## Anarax

Hanzou said:


> So I'm watching this video in absolute shock. A blue belt in Bjj being unable to do a basic takedown on a standing opponent despite having ample opportunity. I don't know what the rules were for this exercise, but no one grabbed a sleeve, under hooked, gripped the back of the neck, clenched, went for a single leg, or anything. It seemed like they were all doing some lazy waist grab.
> 
> So what's the cause of this? Is this all because of sport Bjj, or is something else occurring here?



The psychological dynamics of dealing with strikes in sparring is different than grappling for it's less controlled. Most people will have an initial fear of getting hit and will hesitate to initiate or commit to techniques because of said fear. The boxer was showing restraint, but was giving the students enough to challenge them. The blue belt got his hands on the boxer a few times but didn't follow through.  

The boxer had good footwork and knew how to control distance. Those skills alone makes all the difference. I'm not making excuses for the bjj students, but I think this type of training is a step in the right direction.


----------



## drop bear

Man seriously. You tried this on my boxing instructor you wouldn't be taking him down either.

There is a reason why these guys are teaching the class.


----------



## Hanzou

Anarax said:


> The psychological dynamics of dealing with strikes in sparring is different than grappling for it's less controlled. Most people will have an initial fear of getting hit and will hesitate to initiate or commit to techniques because of said fear. The boxer was showing restraint, but was giving the students enough to challenge them. The blue belt got his hands on the boxer a few times but didn't follow through.
> 
> The boxer had good footwork and knew how to control distance. Those skills alone makes all the difference. I'm not making excuses for the bjj students, but I think this type of training is a step in the right direction.



Thing is that Bjj has traditionally trained students on how to grapple with strikers, it's part of what made Royce Gracie capable of winning the early UFCs, and is part of the reason Bjj became a staple of MMA. There is no puzzle here, we're just simply dealing with lost knowledge in some Bjj schools that focus on competition over practical application of the martial art. Again, in my old school, we were taught how to grapple against strikers in our fundamental classes when you were a zero stripe white belt.


----------



## Martial D

Hanzou said:


> Thing is that Bjj has traditionally trained students on how to grapple with strikers, it's part of what made Royce Gracie capable of winning the early UFCs, and is part of the reason Bjj became a staple of MMA. There is no puzzle here, we're just simply dealing with lost knowledge in some Bjj schools that focus on competition over practical application of the martial art. Again, in my old school, we were taught how to grapple against strikers in our fundamental classes when you were a zero stripe white belt.



Not all strikers are created equal. If bjj guys could just automatically take down any striker with ease(even at BB level) mma would be full of jitz guys that can't strike because they wouldn't need to.

But it isn't.


----------



## Hanzou

Martial D said:


> Not all strikers are created equal. If bjj guys could just automatically take down any striker with ease(even at BB level) mma would be full of jitz guys that can't strike because they wouldn't need to.
> 
> But it isn't.



Mainly because BJJ takes a very long time (in MMA terms) to reach that level of  proficiency. Most MMA fighters utilize wrestling for their base and add BJJ as a compliment to their existing grappling skills. However, we do have very recent examples of BJJ practcioners who have done very well in MMA. Ryan Hall, Kron Gracie, Vinny Marghelies (sp?) and McKenzie Dern just to name a few. I think a few of them are undefeated as well.


----------



## Hanzou

I should also add that old school Bjj was never devoid of strikes. Striking was employed in old school BJJ to set up and reinforce grappling. You can see that in the Gracie in action vids and the first UFC.


----------



## Martial D

Hanzou said:


> Mainly because BJJ takes a very long time (in MMA terms) to reach that level of  proficiency. Most MMA fighters utilize wrestling for their base and add BJJ as a compliment to their existing grappling skills. However, we do have very recent examples of BJJ practcioners who have done very well in MMA. Ryan Hall, Kron Gracie, Vinny Marghelies (sp?) and McKenzie Dern just to name a few. I think a few of them are undefeated as well.


I roll twice a week, I understand bjj is a powerful tool. I also understand there are vast areas of fighting bjj doesn't extensively train. This is especially true if you train only bjj and literally never face real strikes from good strikers.

Sure, there are and have been bjj specialists in high level MMA, but even Ryan Hall and "the human backpack" Demian Maia have way better boxing than your average Joe.


----------



## Hanzou

Martial D said:


> I roll twice a week, I understand bjj is a powerful tool. I also understand there are vast areas of fighting bjj doesn't extensively train. This is especially true if you train only bjj and literally never face real strikes from good strikers.



Well let's be real here; If I'm a Bjj hobbyist who rolls twice a week and I get in a fight with a professional boxer, I'm more than likely going to kiss the pavement. If I'm dealing with some street fighting guy who goes to a boxing gym twice a week, then (if I'm going to an old-school Bjj school) I should be able to use my training to stuff his strikes via clench, take him down, ground and pound and  (if necessary) go to choke and joint lock. The point is, your BJJ school should be teaching you how to use and deal with striking. Unfortunately, more and more schools think it's more important to learn how to counter a guard than a punch.



> Sure, there are and have been bjj specialists in high level MMA, but even Ryan Hall and "the human backpack" Demian Maia have way better boxing than your average Joe.



Yeah, but I wouldn't consider Maia or Hall to be top level strikers in the sport. Both are employing the old school Bjj strategy of using strikes to set up the grappling, and they (along with the others I mentioned) have been very successful in that arena while having mediocre striking. Heck Kron is bringing back the heel kick while in guard. Again, that's classic Bjj.


----------



## Martial D

Hanzou said:


> Well let's be real here; If I'm a Bjj hobbyist who rolls twice a week and I get in a fight with a professional boxer, I'm more than likely going to kiss the pavement. If I'm dealing with some street fighting guy who goes to a boxing gym twice a week, then (if I'm going to an old-school Bjj school) I should be able to use my training to stuff his strikes via clench, take him down, ground and pound and  (if necessary) go to choke and joint lock. The point is, your BJJ school should be teaching you how to use and deal with striking. Unfortunately, more and more schools think it's more important to learn how to counter a guard than a punch.



I get that. Many sport schools don't deal with striking at all, some are more heavily SD oriented and drill a lot of strike defenses. Not many that I know of do enough striking to hang with an actual striker though..and if that guy has some takedown defense any guy that's bjj only could be in for a really bad time.




> Yeah, but I wouldn't consider Maia or Hall to be top level strikers in the sport. Both are employing the old school Bjj strategy of using strikes to set up the grappling, and they (along with the others I mentioned) have been very successful in that arena while having mediocre striking. Heck Kron is bringing back the heel kick while in guard. Again, that's classic Bjj.



No, they aren't top level..but they both have a boxing coach. Just saying you can't really use any MMA guy as an example of pure jitz, unless you go back to Royce.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> more and more schools think it's more important to learn how to counter a guard than a punch.


What are the BJJ strategy to deal with

1. incoming punches - your opponent's hands are away from his head,
2. boxing guard - your opponent's hands are near his head?


----------



## Hanzou

Martial D said:


> No, they aren't top level..but they both have a boxing coach. Just saying you can't really use any MMA guy as an example of pure jitz, unless you go back to Royce.



Well there's Kron. At Ieast he claims to be doing nothing but Gjj.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What are the BJJ strategy to deal with
> 
> 1. incoming punches - your opponent's hands are away from his head,
> 2. boxing guard - your opponent's hands are near his head?


The primary tool in old-school BJJ for dealing with punches has always been distance control.

If you are too far away to clinch, then stay far away out of punching range (about 2 arms length). Low kicks to the knee are used to discourage the opponent from getting close.

If the opponent commits to rushing you, that is your chance to move forward at the same time. Since you are both moving forward you can reach clinch range quickly without worrying about him backing away. The "rhino guard", as you call it, is a classic method for protecting the head on the way in.

Once you are in, stay very close to smother punches and get the takedown.

Another classic option if you need to press the attack against an opponent who isn't committing forward is to use the "pisao", a low kick which turns into a big step forward in order to get close. (I believe you've spoken in favor of this technique in previous conversations.)

Another approach is to time an opponent's punch and change levels to come in with a double-leg takedown. This is a good technique but requires significant skill to do properly.

Note - the old school BJJ approaches I've just described are pretty reliable against untrained opponents and pure strikers. Modern MMA competition, where you are dealing with opponents who are skilled in blending striking and grappling, requires more sophisticated methods to reach the clinch without being hit. Generally speaking, if you are fighting someone who is skilled in both striking and grappling then you need to have both striking and grappling skills yourself.


----------



## Buka

First time I ever saw BJJ we were learning striking on the ground. Always loved old school.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Tony Dismukes said:


> If the opponent commits to rushing you, that is your chance to move forward at the same time.


Agree on this 100%. IMO, this area has not been fully developed into the most detail yet. When this area has been fully developed, MMA will move into a new level.


----------



## Anarax

Hanzou said:


> Thing is that Bjj has traditionally trained students on how to grapple with strikers, it's part of what made Royce Gracie capable of winning the early UFCs, and is part of the reason Bjj became a staple of MMA. There is no puzzle here, we're just simply dealing with lost knowledge in some Bjj schools that focus on competition over practical application of the martial art. Again, in my old school, we were taught how to grapple against strikers in our fundamental classes when you were a zero stripe white belt.



Dealing with strikes is one thing, but dealing with a trained boxer is difficult regardless of your style. Grappling techniques from any style will not be effective if the student isn't psychologically conditioned to handle strikes. I see your point about the difference between old school bjj and the more sport-oriented style.


----------



## Hanzou

Anarax said:


> Dealing with strikes is one thing, but dealing with a trained boxer is difficult regardless of your style. Grappling techniques from any style will not be effective if the student isn't psychologically conditioned to handle strikes. I see your point about the difference between old school bjj and the more sport-oriented style.



Eh, we've seen professional matches where pure striking went up against pure grappling, and the latter did just fine.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Anarax said:


> Dealing with strikes is one thing, but dealing with a trained boxer is difficult regardless of your style. Grappling techniques from any style will not be effective if the student isn't psychologically conditioned to handle strikes. I see your point about the difference between old school bjj and the more sport-oriented style.


If A concentrates 100% in defense, It's very difficult for B's punch to land on A's head.

How many chances that Muhammad Ali can obtain a successful 'clinch" during his rope-a-dope strategy? He only needs 1 successful clinch, take his opponent down, and end that stand up game.






I do believe "anti-striking" is possible. It's as simple as "arms wrapping", or "double over hooks".






If you can achieve this, it will be difficult for your opponent to punch you after that.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Hanzou said:


> So I'm watching this video in absolute shock. A blue belt in Bjj being unable to do a basic takedown on a standing opponent despite having ample opportunity. I don't know what the rules were for this exercise, but no one grabbed a sleeve, under hooked, gripped the back of the neck, clenched, went for a single leg, or anything. It seemed like they were all doing some lazy waist grab.
> 
> So what's the cause of this? Is this all because of sport Bjj, or is something else occurring here?



It's Dojo Americana, they've solved the MMA over TMA issue and over BBJ too.  MMA schools always have an answer.  Dojo American, booyah!

I'll keep it short and provide the correct answer to the BJJ Blue Belt's dilemma (like I always too!).  The BJJ Blue Belt doesn't know what to do.  Answer.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Steve said:


> Blue belts have holes in their game .




No Steve, you are dead wrong.  The Dojo Americana instructor told you straight away what's wrong.  A BJJ practitioner is just not going to have any success unless that practitioner can do take downs.

So Steve, you missed the solution, Dojo Americana spelled it right out.  Oh, wrestling has the take downs you need to practice those.  And MMA too.  Yes, the answer for BBJ faultiness is wrestling & MMA, doing that.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Hanzou said:


> Check out the Gracie challenge vids. Old school Bjj did just fine against strikers of various caliber. Royce took down competitive boxers and kickboxers in a little over a minute in the old UFC.
> 
> Something's changed, and I think it's because of the sport scene.



AAAAWWWWHHH come on.  The earlier Gracie vids were just as bogus as Dojo Americana.  Royce Gracie again & again.

Here's a WMMA vid of a wrestling (sorry BJJ) of is it BJJ [help me out grappler's] take down off a lazy round kick to the waist.
*Pennington vs. Evinger TUF 18 Elimination (FULL FIGHT)*
29,056 views







The Ultimate Fighter
Published on Sep 24, 2013

MMA's great as showing up poor technique.  Lesson: Crap striking, particularly kicks will get you countered by a take down.  Don't be a crap striker against a decent grappler.  The grappler will use your crap striking to take you down.  Simple.

I think that's Raquel Pennington with the leg grab, then single leg trip.  Very nice on her part.  All takes place very soon into the fight.


----------



## Steve

ShotoNoob said:


> No Steve, you are dead wrong.  The Dojo Americana instructor told you straight away what's wrong.  A BJJ practitioner is just not going to have any success unless that practitioner can do take downs.
> 
> So Steve, you missed the solution, Dojo Americana spelled it right out.  Oh, wrestling has the take downs you need to practice those.  And MMA too.  Yes, the answer for BBJ faultiness is wrestling & MMA, doing that.


I do not understand.  Are you trying to be sarcastic?


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> AAAAWWWWHHH come on.  The earlier Gracie vids were just as bogus as Dojo Americana.  Royce Gracie again & again.
> 
> Here's a WMMA vid of a wrestling (sorry BJJ) of is it BJJ [help me out grappler's] take down off a lazy round kick to the waist.
> *Pennington vs. Evinger TUF 18 Elimination (FULL FIGHT)*
> 29,056 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Ultimate Fighter
> Published on Sep 24, 2013
> 
> MMA's great as showing up poor technique.  Lesson: Crap striking, particularly kicks will get you countered by a take down.  Don't be a crap striker against a decent grappler.  The grappler will use your crap striking to take you down.  Simple.
> 
> I think that's Raquel Pennington with the leg grab, then single leg trip.  Very nice on her part.  All takes place very soon into the fight.


Okay if Mma striking is so bad and you're so much better how about you go fight in a local Mma league and post the video I could do with a few laughs


----------



## ShotoNoob

jobo said:


> Isnt it just what we discussed on the other thread ? *Bjj isnt particularly effective against a good striker with good movement*



Glad to see your finally talking about me.  Except good movement isn't necessary.  See kumite vids.

Dojo Americana though has schooled Manchester, England however.  The narrator told you, tells you, that you might have to set up the take down with [some kind] of strikes.  One might have to do that.  As opposed to the BJJ guy just going in stupidly hesitant with his hands limp, exactly the same as the limp-handed strikers in those early Gracie videos.

Ironic, same coin, opposite sides.  What, 25 or more years later.  MMA, we have to mix martial art in a blender to get any thing right.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Steve said:


> I do not understand.  Are you trying to be sarcastic?



I hope I've judged you right.  I mean I think I have.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> Okay if Mma striking is so bad and you're so much better how about you go fight in a local Mma league and post the video I could do with a few laughs


  OHhhh, the tough guy challenge match approach.  Like the assistant head instructor @ the dojo.  He wanted to be No. 1 too, so picked on those he profiled as weaker to make it so.

I'm not superior like you, so no matter what I did (or have accomplished), no doubt it would come up short.  And yes, MMA striking is bad.  Except for yours, of course.  Tez is ok, though.

EDIT: Excuse while I complete my viewing of the OP video.


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> OHhhh, the tough guy challenge match approach.  Like the assistant head instructor @ the dojo.  He wanted to be No. 1 too, so picked on those he profiled as weaker to make it so.
> 
> I'm not superior like you, so no matter what I did (or have accomplished), no doubt it would come up short.  And yes, MMA striking is bad.  Except for yours, of course.  Tez is ok, though.


Um I don't do Mma genius. I'm not challenging you I'm saying that if you think it's so bad why don't you go show how bad it is


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tony, the first paragraph I didn't quote was priceless.  BJJ schools too grabby in their practice, just like karate schools too punchy in their practice.  Huh, sad state of affairs all over.



Tony Dismukes said:


> I do agree with the narrator that this sort of exercise is much easier for the grappler if they also have some experience with striking. That experience makes them more comfortable getting into the pocket for a good shot instead of putting their head down and rushing in from out of range the way most of the students in the video were trying to do.



But Tony, this is not at all what those magnificent Gracie's said in their original, MMA competitor / striker smashing videos.  They said point blank that the striker CANNOT stop the grappler's advance &  gets taken down, PERIOD.  How we have grown.

Hey, I do want to step up an support your lead in sentence.  Makes all the sense in the world.  Yet really Tony, the BJJ guys in the Dojo American we doing that same play acting fighting that MMA and such complains about in TMA videos.

Take a look at the boxer, who snaps out some hard jabs.  Ouch.  Isn't he kinda wide open for a a boxer straight punch or even maybe a linear up the middle karate punch?  Dojo Americana proclaims he's a skilled boxer, so I guess he's perfectly safe, with his head leaning forward, chin out hands down, tossing wide punches.  I forgot to add in those big padded boxing gloves, you know the 'same' we see in MMA and karate, afford high-level protection.


----------



## Buka

Steve said:


> I do not understand.  Are you trying to be sarcastic?



Steve.....\ I think there's a lot of \ in his opinions.

Do you remember \ from a few years back?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> Um I don't do Mma genius. I'm not challenging you I'm saying that if you think it's so bad why don't you go show how bad it is


OH Headhunter.  There you go changing the subject.  The Wrestling TD / Striker video was about MMA; not about YOU.

On the showing, well we do have kumite in the dojo in karate.  And as is reality, we do have kick boxer stylists, boxers, muay Thai, MMA types participating in karate in karate dojos who employ their style in kumite in the dojo.  So yes, I have come up against all these.

Point two, I've posted innumerable, detained subject matter explaining karate & same.  BUT, you have to read it.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Buka said:


> Steve.....\ I think there's a lot of \ in his opinions.
> 
> Do you remember \ from a few years back?



Problem solved.  Waiting?


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> OH Headhunter.  There you go changing the subject.  The Wrestling TD / Striker video was about MMA; not about YOU.
> 
> On the showing, well we do have kumite in the dojo in karate.  And as is reality, we do have kick boxer stylists, boxers, muay Thai, MMA types participating in karate in karate dojos who employ their style in kumite in the dojo.  So yes, I have come up against all these.
> 
> Point two, I've posted innumerable, detained subject matter explaining karate & same.  BUT, you have to read it.


I don't think anyone here understands a word you're talking about buddy and actually your the one that bought up Mma by saying how bad it is


----------



## ShotoNoob

jobo said:


> Plus the more room you have to move, the more it favours the stiker, , stick them in a tight space were you can trap them in a corner and it may have had a different iut come or maybe not, they seemed to loose enthuiasm arter they had eated a couple of stiff jabs



Picking up on Dojo American, yes there was room for the combatants to move around.  The part you left out though, was if the boxer is moving all over, he can't strike.

Right?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> I don't think anyone here understands a word you're talking about buddy and actually your the one that bought up Mma by saying how bad it is



Oh, the sad state of affairs.  And Buddy?  How effective of you.


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> Oh, the sad state of affairs.  And Buddy?  How effective of you.


What on earth are you talking about?....have you been drinking or something your posts don't makes any sense at all


----------



## Hanzou

ShotoNoob said:


> It's Dojo Americana, they've solved the MMA over TMA issue and over BBJ too.  MMA schools always have an answer.  Dojo American, booyah!
> 
> I'll keep it short and provide the correct answer to the BJJ Blue Belt's dilemma (like I always too!).  The BJJ Blue Belt doesn't know what to do.  Answer.





ShotoNoob said:


> No Steve, you are dead wrong.  The Dojo Americana instructor told you straight away what's wrong.  A BJJ practitioner is just not going to have any success unless that practitioner can do take downs.
> 
> So Steve, you missed the solution, Dojo Americana spelled it right out.  Oh, wrestling has the take downs you need to practice those.  And MMA too.  Yes, the answer for BBJ faultiness is wrestling & MMA, doing that.





ShotoNoob said:


> Tony, the first paragraph I didn't quote was priceless.  BJJ schools too grabby in their practice, just like karate schools too punchy in their practice.  Huh, sad state of affairs all over.
> 
> 
> 
> But Tony, this is not at all what those magnificent Gracie's said in their original, MMA competitor / striker smashing videos.  They said point blank that the striker CANNOT stop the grappler's advance &  gets taken down, PERIOD.  How we have grown.
> 
> Hey, I do want to step up an support your lead in sentence.  Makes all the sense in the world.  Yet really Tony, the BJJ guys in the Dojo American we doing that same play acting fighting that MMA and such complains about in TMA videos.
> 
> Take a look at the boxer, who snaps out some hard jabs.  Ouch.  Isn't he kinda wide open for a a boxer straight punch or even maybe a linear up the middle karate punch?  Dojo Americana proclaims he's a skilled boxer, so I guess he's perfectly safe, with his head leaning forward, chin out hands down, tossing wide punches.  I forgot to add in those big padded boxing gloves, you know the 'same' we see in MMA and karate, afford high-level protection.





ShotoNoob said:


> OHhhh, the tough guy challenge match approach.  Like the assistant head instructor @ the dojo.  He wanted to be No. 1 too, so picked on those he profiled as weaker to make it so.
> 
> I'm not superior like you, so no matter what I did (or have accomplished), no doubt it would come up short.  And yes, MMA striking is bad.  Except for yours, of course.  Tez is ok, though.
> 
> EDIT: Excuse while I complete my viewing of the OP video.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Hanzou said:


>



Perfectly (you).


----------



## Headhunter

Hanzou said:


>


Thank god I'm not the only one who didn't understand I was worried my head was having issues (not even joking. I'm diabetic and that causes the mind to not work properly at times)


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> Thank god I'm not the only one who didn't understand I was worried my head was having issues (not even joking. I'm diabetic and that causes the mind to not work properly at times)



Sorry to hear about your diabetes.


----------



## Hanzou

ShotoNoob said:


> AAAAWWWWHHH come on.  The earlier Gracie vids were just as bogus as Dojo Americana.  Royce Gracie again & again.



If the earlier Gracie vids were bogus, how did Royce win the first UFC, and how did their fighting system become the basis of modern MMA?



> Here's a WMMA vid of a wrestling (sorry BJJ) of is it BJJ [help me out grappler's] take down off a lazy round kick to the waist.



The least you could do is give us the times where this takedown actually took place. No one is going to sit through a 10 minute video to see a 3 second takedown attempt.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Gawd, these were easy.



Hanzou said:


> If the earlier Gracie vids were bogus, how did Royce win the first UFC, and how did their fighting system become the basis of modern MMA?



Promotion.



Hanzou said:


> The least you could do is give us the times where this take down actually took place. No one is going to sit through a 10 minute video to see a 3 second take down attempt.



OMGawd, how could I???  It's at the very beginning of the fight.  The Gracie's did a great service by bringing the takedown threat to us, making it front & content.  I don't think I was at my 1st TMA school more than 5 or 6 weeks, however, when I asked the head instructor about this.  I didn't need the Gracie's to tell me 'cause (1) I thought of it on my own; (2) the school like most all TMA schools taught a self defense technical segment.

The even better moral is that will all this "modern, evolved, super-blended" WMMA we have today, the MMA striker gets taken down very near the fights' outset.  How apropos....  Super MMA training we have.  Give Dojo Americana, the fresh face a call, they'll work it out for ya!

Dojo Americana's just trying to help out too, and let the public they are in the MMA training business.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Hanzou said:


> Again, I believe its the training focus in modern schools. Coming out of a Relson Gracie affiliate, I know that our fundamentals program was loaded with takedowns and clench fighting. I saw none of that in the video above.



Question for ya.  Doesn't BJJ have take down's?  So isn't the OP vid one-sided?


----------



## Martial D

If you read this guys posts in the voice of Master Ken it all makes way more sense.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Martial D said:


> If you read this guys posts in the voice of Master Ken it all makes way more sense.


Yep, voice of reason arrives.

Still no direct discussion.  Master Ken!

EDIT: Next it''l be Barbie Doll.


----------



## Hanzou

ShotoNoob said:


> Gawd, these were easy.
> 
> 
> 
> Promotion.



So MMA has been promoting Bjj for 25 years? For what purpose?




> OMGawd, how could I???  It's at the very beginning of the fight.  The Gracie's did a great service by bringing the takedown threat to us, making it front & content.  I don't think I was at my 1st TMA school more than 5 or 6 weeks, however, when I asked the head instructor about this.  I didn't need the Gracie's to tell me 'cause (1) I thought of it on my own; (2) the school like most all TMA schools taught a self defense technical segment.
> 
> The even better moral is that will all this "modern, evolved, super-blended" WMMA we have today, the MMA striker gets taken down very near the fights' outset.  How apropos....  Super MMA training we have.  Give Dojo Americana, the fresh face a call, they'll work it out for ya!
> 
> Dojo Americana's just trying to help out too, and let the public they are in the MMA training business.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Hanzou said:


> So MMA has been promoting Bjj for 25 years? For what purpose?



What are you on about?  CARTOONS.


----------



## Anarax

Hanzou said:


> Eh, we've seen professional matches where pure striking went up against pure grappling, and the latter did just fine.



Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. I'm not talking about the technical dynamic of grappling vs striking. I'm referring to the psychological ability of overcoming the fear of getting hit, which applies to both grapplers and strikers. Knowing the techniques isn't enough, the mind must be able to commit when faced with danger.


----------



## Anarax

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If A concentrates 100% in defense, It's very difficult for B's punch to land on A's head.
> 
> How many chances that Muhammad Ali can obtain a successful 'clinch" during his rope-a-dope strategy? He only needs 1 successful clinch, take his opponent down, and end that stand up game.



Muhammad Ali was mentally conditioned to fight the top heavyweights of his era(Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Patterson, etc). A striker of his caliber *would *be able to position himself to pull off grappling techniques.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

I am so confused by the last two pages in here. I want to provide 'direct discussion', but I have no idea what's being argued, or if I agree/disagree with it


----------



## Hanzou

Anarax said:


> Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. I'm not talking about the technical dynamic of grappling vs striking. I'm referring to the psychological ability of overcoming the fear of getting hit, which applies to both grapplers and strikers. Knowing the techniques isn't enough, the mind must be able to commit when faced with danger.



The difference is that Gjj was traditionally taught how to deal with strikers and grapplers, which led to modern MMA grappling which ALSO teaches how to deal with strikers and grapplers. The problem in traditional striking MAs is that they don't teach you how to deal with grapplers (much less modern grappling) at all.

I do believe that even modern exponents of traditional striking arts still believe that you can just kick a grappler in the face when they're coming in for the takedown, or that their main defense against a grappler is to "never get taken down in the first place".

Famous last words.


----------



## Buka

Martial D said:


> If you read this guys posts in the voice of Master Ken it all makes way more sense.



It would, wouldn't it? Usually when I read something I just read it. But sometimes I hear it in a particular voice, like how you mentioned Master Ken. But with this one I only hear the voice of Chandler Bing, a character on the old Friends TV show.

And I always liked Chandler Bing, so it's rather enjoyable.

I mean no offense by any of this, it's just the way I hear it in my foolish head.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> The difference is that Gjj was traditionally taught how to deal with strikers and grapplers, which led to modern MMA grappling which ALSO teaches how to deal with strikers and grapplers. The problem in traditional striking MAs is that they don't teach you how to deal with grapplers (much less modern grappling) at all.
> 
> I do believe that even modern exponents of traditional striking arts still believe that you can just kick a grappler in the face when they're coming in for the takedown, or that their main defense against a grappler is to "never get taken down in the first place".
> 
> Famous last words.



I think grappling is just fundamentally more cumulative or progressive. If I punch a guy and we break off. It takes a while for that to be my advantage. 

If I grapple I get the advantage right away. So if you score two punches but I get underhooks. I am winning.

But striking is the short cut. So if I had to fight for underhooks. I could just cheat and punch you in the head rather than fart around grappling for them.

I think it is more about understanding the nature of striking and grappling rather than them really being competing forces.

In that very first video. The striker is using punching as a grappling tool. He is not trying to lay anyone out. He is just frustrating and forcing mistakes.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

drop bear said:


> I think it is more about understanding the nature of striking and grappling rather than them really being competing forces.


Since it's very difficult (if not impossible) to punch to the ground when you stand on your feet, trying to use striking to deal with grappling is not always possible.



drop bear said:


> In that very first video. The striker is using punching as a grappling tool. He is not trying to lay anyone out. He is just frustrating and forcing mistakes.


If a wrestler uses stiff arms and rotate both arms in circles in front of him (without striking intend), it will confuse the striker big time. But it will give the wrestler a good chance to obtain the clinch that he is looking for.


----------



## Anarax

Hanzou said:


> which led to modern MMA grappling which ALSO teaches how to deal with strikers and grapplers.


The grappling techniques in modern MMA is a mixed bag, not just GJJ/BJJ. Wrestling has also played a tremendous factor in shaping "MMA Grappling" as well.



Hanzou said:


> The problem in traditional striking MAs is that they don't teach you how to deal with grapplers (much less modern grappling) at all.


That varies from school to schools and system to system. I've studied traditional striking systems that taught takedown/grappling defenses as well as other systems that didn't. Traditional striking is a very broad category and is too diverse in methodologies to say none of them teach anti-grappling.   



Hanzou said:


> I do believe that even modern exponents of traditional striking arts still believe that you can just kick a grappler in the face when they're coming in for the takedown, or that their main defense against a grappler is to "never get taken down in the first place".


There's without a doubt some delusional practitioners who believe that(I've met some of them), but there's also many traditional practitioners that take anti-grappling seriously. They put a lot of time and effort in developing anti-grappling skills and are capable of defending takedowns.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since it's very difficult (if not impossible) to punch to the ground when you stand on your feet, trying to use striking to deal with grappling is not always possible.
> 
> 
> If a wrestler uses stiff arms and rotate both arms in circles in front of him (without striking intend), it will confuse the striker big time. But it will give the wrestler a good chance to obtain the clinch that he is looking for.


I'm not a fantastic striker, but those arms would probably just lead me to use a short low kick to force distance, and a more powerful kick if they kept it up. I don't think I'd find it all that confusing. Good striking is a better way to keep a striker at distance to set up entry.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> I'm not a fantastic striker, but those arms would probably just lead me to use a short low kick to force distance, and a more powerful kick if they kept it up. I don't think I'd find it all that confusing. Good striking is a better way to keep a striker at distance to set up entry.


All wrestler knows that the best time to enter is when his opponent is kicking. You block that kicking leg, push his leading arm to jam his back arm, you will have a safe entry. If you can catch that kicking leg, that's even better.

If A and B try to punch each other, both will get punched. If A tries to punch B, but B only care about clinch, my bet will be on B. If A can't knock B down, the clinch will happen.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All wrestler knows that the best time to enter is when his opponent is kicking. You block that kicking leg, push his leading arm to jam his back arm, you will have a safe entry. If you can catch that kicking leg, that's even better.
> 
> If A and B try to punch each other, both will get punched. If A tries to punch B, but B only care about clinch, my bet will be on B. If A can't knock B down, the clinch will happen.


My experience is that when a grappler's got his arms engaged up high (as in the example), he's less able to take advantage of a low kick, especially if he's also having to pay attention to what might happen to his arms. Kicks don't have to be slow, and they don't even have to make contact to create distance. Now, give me a wrestler who's lowered his weight and is advancing  at the ready, and I will keep my legs to myself, because that's just a gift.


----------



## Hanzou

Anarax said:


> The grappling techniques in modern MMA is a mixed bag, not just GJJ/BJJ. Wrestling has also played a tremendous factor in shaping "MMA Grappling" as well.



Wrestling has played a tremendous factor in shaping Judo and Bjj as well.



> That varies from school to schools and system to system. I've studied traditional striking systems that taught takedown/grappling defenses as well as other systems that didn't. Traditional striking is a very broad category and is too diverse in methodologies to say none of them teach anti-grappling.
> 
> 
> There's without a doubt some delusional practitioners who believe that(I've met some of them), but there's also many traditional practitioners that take anti-grappling seriously. They put a lot of time and effort in developing anti-grappling skills and are capable of defending takedowns.



Do you have any examples of this? I certainly hope we're not talking about something akin to this:


----------



## Anarax

Hanzou said:


> Wrestling has played a tremendous factor in shaping Judo and Bjj as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any examples of this? I certainly hope we're not talking about something akin to this:



No not like that. Changing angles, striking without over-committing too much, drilling escapes, learning to generate power in close spaces/ranges, etc. Drilling those dynamics with a training partner with realistic energy is where I think some schools lose sight of it.


----------



## TMA17

This may have been posted before.  This is pretty sad.  If you are taking BJJ, I don't see how or why takedowns wouldn't be a big part of the training.  Where I was taking BJJ for a month, we did takedowns, but they were very basic.  You find most BJJ schools are doing some takedowns, but they are only adequate for an untrained street thug, not a wrestler or judoka.  And that's probably sufficient for 90% of the time.


----------



## PiedmontChun

W


TMA17 said:


> This may have been posted before.  This is pretty sad.  If you are taking BJJ, I don't see how or why takedowns wouldn't be a big part of the training.  Where I was taking BJJ for a month, we did takedowns, but they were very basic.  You find most BJJ schools are doing some takedowns, but they are only adequate for an untrained street thug, not a wrestler or judoka.  And that's probably sufficient for 90% of the time.


I don't think it is my imagination that the wrestler guy seems to have a bit of a weight advantage over the BJJ guy?? Also, I am surprised the slams were allowed, which makes me curious about the context, who was organizing this match, etc. 
Wrestler guy definitely played his own wrestling game, and refused to try and pass the other guy's guard once he was on the ground. He repeatedly just stepped out and continued standing. I will play devil's advocate a bit though in defense of BJJ: if you trained nogi takedowns all the time, you'd basically be DOING wrestling and not BJJ anymore. There has got to be some balance. That said, some better takedown defense on the BJJ guy's end could have helped immensely, even if not able to offensively use takedowns against said wrestler guy.


----------



## TMA17

Well said.  Where I plan on attending does gi and no gi, alternative weeks.


----------



## Hanzou

TMA17 said:


> This may have been posted before.  This is pretty sad.  If you are taking BJJ, I don't see how or why takedowns wouldn't be a big part of the training.  Where I was taking BJJ for a month, we did takedowns, but they were very basic.  You find most BJJ schools are doing some takedowns, but they are only adequate for an untrained street thug, not a wrestler or judoka.  And that's probably sufficient for 90% of the time.



In defense of the Bjj practitioner, if you're going against a bigger stronger guy (the wrestler had a clear size advantage) with an obvious wrestling background, pulling guard or going for hooks is your only real hope because you're simply NOT going to win in an upright takedown battle with that individual. I noticed that about midway through this fight, the Bjj guy got frustrated and fell directly into the wrestler's game where he was clearly outclassed and slammed repeatedly.

This is entirely an experience issue btw. Anyone who has been in Bjj for an extended amount of time has a story about a wrestler (or two) entering a gym on their first day and giving you fits in a roll. As you advance through the art, you'll find ways to counter those tactics (sometimes by adopting those tactics yourself). There's a reason you don't see wrestlers dominating Bjj comps in the upper ranks. Wrestlers stop popping up in Bjj competition around mid-blue belt range because you start getting people who are used to their tactics (and also leg locks are allowed).


----------



## quasar44

Bjj usually sucks In take downs 

You need a wrestling coach to give classes .

In my 18 months of BJJ with 4 different instructors there was close to zero take downs


----------



## quasar44

I had no clue of anyway to take down 
. I still will never be good but I have taken some mma and hired wrestling coach and learned enough for a middle school level lol 

TD are exhausting . I mean it saps my energy so much


----------



## jobo

quasar44 said:


> Bjj usually sucks In take downs
> 
> You need a wrestling coach to give classes .
> 
> In my 18 months of BJJ with 4 different instructors there was close to zero take downs


 that's not a problem with bjj, thats a problem with the class/instructor, i've not spent anyway near enough time round different bbj clubs to say how widespread it is, but there does seem a tendency with some, certainly beginners classes, to start all moves from laying flat on your back, which is indeed a useful skill, but nowhere near as useful as the skill of  not to ending up flat on your back in the first place


----------



## Danny T

quasar44 said:


> Bjj usually sucks In take downs
> 
> You need a wrestling coach to give classes .
> 
> In my 18 months of BJJ with 4 different instructors there was close to zero take downs


Can't agree with that, every BJJ school I've been associated with works take downs. I'd be more inclined to say there are some BJJ schools that suck with teaching take downs.
In the BJJ we do in our program we work take downs as a part of almost every class within our warm ups.



jobo said:


> that's not a problem with bjj, thats a problem with the class/instructor, i've not spent anyway near enough time round different bbj clubs to say how widespread it is, but there does seem a tendency with some, certainly beginners classes, to start all moves from laying flat on your back, which is indeed a useful skill, but nowhere near as useful as the skill of  not to ending up flat on your back in the first place


I agree! Has nothing to do with BJJ but the particular instructors or schools not teaching or practicing them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

quasar44 said:


> Bjj usually sucks In take downs
> 
> You need a wrestling coach to give classes .
> 
> In my 18 months of BJJ with 4 different instructors there was close to zero take downs


I think that's maybe a consequence of BJJ competition focus. In BJJ competition, from what I have seen (not a participant), it's rarely necessary to fight for a takedown, since the other guy also wants it to go to the ground. Some folks in BJJ have decent takedown skills - especially where they're training with an MMA focus (since the opponent may be a striker, so you'll have to fight for the takedown).


----------



## drop bear

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since it's very difficult (if not impossible) to punch to the ground when you stand on your feet, trying to use striking to deal with grappling is not always possible.



Wait. What?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since it's very difficult (if not impossible) to punch to the ground when you stand on your feet, trying to use striking to deal with grappling is not always possible.



Your knees/hips/back don't bend? You're levitating, and your feet can't reach the ground? Huh?


----------



## Deleted member 39746

I think he means wiithout squatting down or something.    Unless you are below a set height anyway.  Or  in some fashion making yourself shorter.


----------

