# When do you correct Kata?



## K-man (Nov 17, 2014)

In light of a discussion on another thread I thought it might be interesting to have a discussion on the correction of your kata. I am aware that many martial arts have kata and that kata has many forms. This thread is in the Karate section for that reason. I am primarily interested in discussing single person kata here.

This was the post that tweaked my interest:



Hanzou said:


> All of which came from my personal experiences with kata. I didn't like it because in my experience it wasn't being used for anything other than rank padding. We weren't being taught its usefulness, just that it was something we had to do to advance to the next belt. My experiences in TKD and TSD were largely the same. When I met a guy who practiced MMA, it really opened my eyes to what my training lacked; practicality. That same practicality is what drew me to Judo and eventually Bjj. *There wasn't this twerp standing next to me pointing out how my foot wasn't turned the right way, or my elbow wasn't pressed against my hip properly*. In the latter arts I could feel if I was doing things right or wrong, and I could just accordingly.


Now for context, *Hanzou* explained that the 'twerp' was in fact a 12 year old brown belt and the training was in Shotokan karate. 

There are numerous reasons for differences in kata across different styles but why are there differences within a style?

From my position, I am possibly a bit on the casual side when it comes to correcting kata. Because my kata is not for competition it lacks the 'flair' that you see in some examples but I am quite pedantic when it comes to certain things I see performed in kata, and in recent times I was shown where a technique I was performing in a kata I have been training and teaching for over 30 years was 'not quite right'.

I would like to discuss what you, as instructors, look for in correcting your students' kata and what you, as students, are corrected for and how you feel about that correction.

I will kick off the discussion with the two videos I posted on another thread. One is an old video of Morio Higaonna performing Gekisai dai ichi kata and the other is someone from Higaonna's organisation (I hope not Higaonna :uhoh:  seeing I am suggesting it is NQR) performing the same kata but in a slightly different way. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vKLX3tZN1JQ


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xtOl_XULS48


There are at least three subtle but significant differences in the way these kata are performed. Can anyone, particularly Goju people, pick them.

Oh, and please, this is a technical discussion on kata .. not a discussion on the value of kata.
:asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm not going to try to guess the differences in the two forms. I'm not Goju.
I will say that differences may come for a wide verity of reasons.  Some instructors change the form because the student is not capable of preforming a certain move or stance. Some forms are changed because of the instructors opion of where a certian technique should be used ( head, chest, lower abdomen). Some are changed to add tension to certain moves which may make them more powerful.
  Some are changed to simply because the instructor thinks he knows more about the reasons the form was created then the creator of the  form and wants to show his brilliance. ( Yep, seen this reason to many times with some very old Okinawan forms the instructors reason was "it should have been this way in the first place)


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## ballen0351 (Nov 17, 2014)

I think some folks are too rigid when it comes to kata.  Going from an IOGKF dojo to now a Jundokan Dojo I needed to relearn certain parts of every kata and do them a different way.  Most of the kata itself was the same but some of the stances or hand movements ect were different.  The techniques still worked  either way. It was kinda funny because both styles had reasons why they did it their way and Im like ok sure.


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## harlan (Nov 17, 2014)

I think it is, actually, an older Higaonna, and I can't see any significant differences. Can you point out what you see/think is different enough to be relevant?

As for differences in kata - I should think that everyone's kata morphs over time either intentionally or through 'drift'. As a student, I find it more difficult to keep up with minor changes due to a teacher's changing understanding (old way, new way, my way, wrong way, Higa version, etc.).

When it comes to teaching, a beginning student gets the most current version...and it's taught in 'broad strokes' so any 'differences' can actually be seen as simply a variance around the mean.


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 17, 2014)

AS to why to correct someone doing kata:
If they are your student you either learned a form one way or your organization wants it done a certain way and if the student is not doing it that way they  need to be corrected.  Not correcting a student will lead to the form being passed down by that student incorrectly to the next person ( yes bad habits are passed on)


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> I'm not going to try to guess the differences in the two forms. I'm not Goju.
> I will say that differences may come for a wide verity of reasons.  Some instructors change the form because the student is not capable of preforming a certain move or stance. Some forms are changed because of the instructors opion of where a certian technique should be used ( head, chest, lower abdomen). Some are changed to add tension to certain moves which may make them more powerful.
> Some are changed to simply because the instructor thinks he knows more about the reasons the form was created then the creator of the  form and wants to show his brilliance. *( Yep,* *seen this reason to many times with some very old Okinawan forms the instructors reason was "it should have been this way in the first place)[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## ballen0351 (Nov 17, 2014)

NYC GoJu Ryu IOGKF Karate

Also Im pretty positive both videos are Higaonna Sensei The webpage has the front view and they show his face


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2014)

Ohtsuka Sensei Wado Ryu
 Kushanku.     Karate Wadoryu - YouTube


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 17, 2014)

My two cents is that you should have a new understanding of any given Kata at any new belt level, You aren't wrong at your level, you are just at that level.


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## jks9199 (Nov 17, 2014)

When do I correct a student performing a form?  I'll assume we're talking a student past the point of learning the basic motions and sequences, since obviously, that gets corrected until they get it right.    I correct a student's practice when they aren't using proper body mechanics or have somehow lost a principle of the form.  For example, our first form is a 2 count, 8 set form.  One principle of the form is to move off the line of the attack, and return a counterattack.  For example, the first set is a forward step, pivot, then punch.  So, if a student doesn't move off the line of the attack, or punches to the wrong place -- that gets corrected.  If they aren't using the proper techniques (cover hand doesn't protect, for example), that gets pointed out.  If they're in the wrong stance -- yeah, that's gonna get fixed.  A common example of that one is someone not fully turning in that pivot for the punch...  If I'm working with a more advanced student, I may help them review the form to see how to fit a better understanding of the elements and techniques into the form.

When would I change a form?  About the only time I've been involved in that was adapting forms around students with physical impairments.  For example, we had a student who had lost most of the use of one arm; many of the forms had to be adapted to keep the principle being demonstrated, even though he couldn't do all of it.  Or, some of us are finding that kneeling stances are getting more challenging... so we may practice the form without the kneeling stances.  

Of course, that also depends on the purpose of the form.  Some forms are meant to teach a combative principle.  They might get adapted, so long as the principle is maintained.  Others are meant for exercise or what I'll call "attribute development", like our sanchin exercise (please don't confuse it with Isshin Ryu or other Sanchin kata) is about learning body lock and building strength.  Those are seldom changed, because to change them, you change the attributes in question.  And some are meant as demonstrations or performances, or to memorialize and honor someone or some event, kind of like some of the fancy manual of arms for a rifle.  (See Old Guard or USMC Silent Drill Team.)  Those... well, some may get changed for the performance in question, others are never changed.


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## K-man (Nov 17, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I think some folks are too rigid when it comes to kata.  Going from an IOGKF dojo to now a Jundokan Dojo I needed to relearn certain parts of every kata and do them a different way.  Most of the kata itself was the same but some of the stances or hand movements ect were different.  The techniques still worked  either way. It was kinda funny because both styles had reasons why they did it their way and I'm like ok sure.


Been there, done that.  In my case it was from Goju Kai to Jundokan. The Jundokan put out kata videos with Miyzato's  Jundokan book which makes life a little easier.

Assuming it is Higaonna in both videos it is interesting to see the change from the first to the second. I have used Higaonna's videos on my own website as the early ones are straight Jundokan. From what I have been told, Miyazato only made one change to the kata and that was a hand position in Sepai kata. The rest is as taught by Chojun Miyagi. Higaonna started at the Jundokan and was graded to 7th dan by Miyazato. He also spent a lot of time in Japan where I can only assume he saw in Goju Kai as that is what I see in his more recent kata.

But back to the videos shown. The main difference between the two videos is in the two Shuto (knife hand) strikes. The Shuto follows a reverse strike. The Jundokan version has the Shuto coming straight from the hand position of the reverse punch. The Goju Kai version lifts the hand to shoulder height before the strike. This is is evident in the second video and is the technique I was referring to as something I had done for all my training. If you think about it, it makes sense just to strike, not cock and strike which takes longer but looks better when performing a competition kata where moves become exaggerated.

Another difference is in the elbow position of the Jodan uke. The Jundokan version is with the elbow slightly down which means there is a slight bend in the wrist. The Goju Kai version has the elbow slightly raised and the wrist straight. While the second position might be structurally stronger it is 'set' and much more difficult to drop the elbow to protect the chest from a Chudan strike.

A third variation in the second video is the elevated arm in the Shuto strike. We would teach a horizontal strike whereas the second video has the strike directed to the temple. Again from a practical perspective the higher the strike, the easier for your opponent to evade and the strike to the neck gives you a firm grappling position for your next technique.

I couldn't find a Goju Kai Gekisai Dai Ichi video but this one of Gekisai Dai Ni will still show the differences. 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VLrRZN2ummY
:asian:


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## ballen0351 (Nov 17, 2014)

Some of the biggest differences Ive noticed is stances.  In Jundokan for Gekisai I was told to use Sanchin Dachi.  In IOGKF we used Heiko Dachi.  Also with Higaonna some o the difference in his kata now vs then is due to injury.  I cant remember which side but he told us in a seminar he ha a bad shoulder and wrist on one side and "it doesnt move right" as he told us.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 17, 2014)

I try to correct forms starting the moment the student starts to learn a new one, and never stop. I keep trying to correct my own, too.
Forms are somewhat stylized to show the "ideal" technique being practiced; i.e. punching from the hip for maximum power. I try to make sure student understand that these "ideal" positions have to be adapted to fit specific situations. i.e. punching from the hip is not always possible or desirable, depending on the situation.
I also try to teach variations. We use the Palgwae forms as our primary forms, and there are certainly differences between the way the forms were originally taught and the way we do them. Likewise, there are some differences between the way we do the KKW Yudanja forms and the way the KKW teaches them. For example, the KKW teaches the ready stance for Koryo (_tongmilgi joonbi seogi)_ as being done with the knife edge out and the palms parallel. Our school does it with the palms out and the space between the hands forming a triangle. I teach it both ways.


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## seasoned (Nov 17, 2014)

John Roseberry Sensei who at one time trained with my Sensei had two sayings.
(1) Kata is like a book
(2) The answer to your questions, lie on the dojo floor. 

#1, has anyone ever read a book more then once? Generally, for me, the first time through is almost like an introduction. The next time I pick up the book I see things there that I didn't see before. It's the same book same words, but I'm seeing things I missed my first time through.
With kata, your first time through, is an introduction to groundwork (principles) of proper movement, breath coordination and proper body structure. These are the most important lessons to learn that never chance, because they are part of every kata that you will ever learn. The rest of what kata is, are sequences of techniques put into a pattern. Because kata is alive there are many interpretations of the same move and also where differences will be found from dojo to dojo. As my student I expect everyone to be on the same page during kata practice. Once we begin to work on sequences (parts of the kata) we cover some of the variance.

#2 The answer is on the floor. Because Roseberry sensei had a vast knowledge of Judo the proving ground was always testing everything on the dojo floor.


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## donald1 (Nov 17, 2014)

In the second video Either i mistaked but i think I noticed two differences on the second one IMO the backfist (right after the two middle blocks,  kick,  and elbow strike )  i don't think he swung his backfist out enough (but i could be wrong) 

Secondly at the end when he went to bow one hand was closed,  the other was a fist (usually both hands flat ; not fist)


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## K-man (Nov 17, 2014)

donald1 said:


> In the second video Either i mistaked but i think I noticed two differences on the second one IMO the backfist (right after the two middle blocks,  kick,  and elbow strike )  i don't think he swung his backfist out enough (but i could be wrong)
> 
> Secondly at the end when he went to bow one hand was closed,  the other was a fist (usually both hands flat ; not fist)


Good pickup. Second one first. The Jundokan version finishes with the right fist clenched, the only kata to have that. The Goju Kai version has both hands open. In the second IOGKF version it is open hands as well. To me that is just a difference between styles. It might represent a different finish and within that style you would do it that way but it is not something that effects the technique. 

Now if we look at the backfist, I can't tell from the older video if the backfist is close or not. Certainly the more recent video has very little extension especially compared to the Goju Kai version which has a long extension. Here I would suggest that the extended backfist is more a tournament thing. From a practical perspective, you have just kicked someone in the bladder, which normally would bend him forward, and stuck your elbow in his pec or collarbone. His face is the length of your upper arm from your face. Your smack to his nose doesn't have to travel far. It is a snap strike from short distance so, for me, the kata would normally be the shorter strike.
:asian:


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## donald1 (Nov 18, 2014)

K-man said:


> Good pickup. Second one first. The Jundokan version finishes with the right fist clenched, the only kata to have that. The Goju Kai version has both hands open. In the second IOGKF version it is open hands as well. To me that is just a difference between styles. It might represent a different finish and within that style you would do it that way but it is not something that effects the technique.
> 
> Now if we look at the backfist, I can't tell from the older video if the backfist is close or not. Certainly the more recent video has very little extension especially compared to the Goju Kai version which has a long extension. Here I would suggest that the extended backfist is more a tournament thing. From a practical perspective, you have just kicked someone in the bladder, which normally would bend him forward, and stuck your elbow in his pec or collarbone. His face is the length of your upper arm from your face. Your smack to his nose doesn't have to travel far. It is a snap strike from short distance so, for me, the kata would normally be the shorter strike.
> :asian:



Sorry (this question may be off topic)  what's the difference between goju ryu and kai


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## K-man (Nov 18, 2014)

donald1 said:


> Sorry (this question may be off topic)  what's the difference between goju ryu and kai


Not much at all, not that I read or speak Japanese. But basically Kai means organisation and Ryu means style. Gogen Yamaguchi named his karate  Goju Kai. Whereas the Okinawans use the term Ryu. Even so, when you read some of the history of Okinawan Karate the umbrella organisation is called Goju Kai.

I'm sure some of the guys here may be able give a better description.
:asian:


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## seasoned (Nov 18, 2014)

Pretty much what Kman said............

Goju Ryu = the original Okinawan style 

Goju Kai = the Japanese version popularised / founded by Gogen "the Cat" Yamaguchi


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## kodora81 (Dec 3, 2014)

Thanks for the explanation. As a relatively newer Goju Ryu student, I'm often too embarrassed to ask about these things.


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## K-man (Dec 3, 2014)

kodora81 said:


> Thanks for the explanation. As a relatively newer Goju Ryu student, I'm often too embarrassed to ask about these things.


There are some good Goju people here. Feel free to ask anything you want. We may not have all the answers but we can probably offer a reasonable opinion.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 3, 2014)

should you try to correct a kata that someone outside your school but in the same system is doing?  I think this might be a tricky situation but I might ask why it was being done the way the person is doing it and why the changes


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2014)

kodora81 said:


> Thanks for the explanation. As a relatively newer Goju Ryu student, I'm often too embarrassed to ask about these things.



Why? If you've got 30 years in an art, then it might conceivably be embarrassing to not know historic details, but as a noob, it should be taken for granted that you don't know any of these things.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> should you try to correct a kata that someone outside your school but in the same system is doing?  I think this might be a tricky situation but I might ask why it was being done the way the person is doing it and why the changes



I don't think so, no. You're not their teacher. As you say, I might ask questions, but I also know that the answer is likely to be "because that's how my teacher wants it done". I'd be more likely to ask their teacher, if I had the chance, but even then the answer may well be the same.
Here's an example. In the TKD yudanja form Keumgang, a crane stance with a diamond low block is done several times.


In the KKW version of this for, the leg is drawn up quickly while the blocks are performed slowly. In some schools, students are taught to squat before rising up to the cane stance. In our school, the foot rises slowly, reaching the final position at the same time as the hands.
My understanding is that the reason for doing the blocks slowly is to force the student to hold the crane stance longer, as a balance exercise. (Part of the meaning of "keumgang" is "immovable" and balance is one of the things we must perfect if we're to be immovable.) My KJN believes the balance exercise is made more effective if the foot moves slowly, since the more body parts moving, the more difficult maintaining balance is.
I practice it his way and the KKW way, and while discussion is always welcome, I'm not likely to accept correction from random people.


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## donald1 (Dec 3, 2014)

@kodora81
i ask questions in my goju class every day and occasionally throw one or two here 

there's nothing wrong with being new everyone is new at some point. And besides if you don't ask,  how will you learn them?

In my opinion there's no such thing as a question you can't learn from.  If it's a good question you'll get a good answer and if it's not you'll learn from that too


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