# The Existance of chi / ki



## Makalakumu (Dec 13, 2003)

According to modern physics, there are four fundamental forces.  There is gravitation, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force.  Could there be a force that physicists know nothing about (chi) or is chi one of the fundamental forces in disguise.  Do people believe that this form of energy exists?  Can anyone produce research that supports the existance of chi?


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## heretic888 (Dec 13, 2003)

I believe something _like_ ch'i probably exists.

However, I do not believe it is a physical force and thus will never be discovered by physicists. 

Now the "ki" or "chi" you seem to be talking about is different than the mere "biological energy" that gets bandied around as a definition. A bioenergy or the like could be studied fairly easily (but not by physics), I'd imagine. A transpersonal "force" underlying and inherent in all things, however, is not something a "hard" science could reveal.

That being said, I have little doubt that, provided it truly existed, some of the "soft" sciences could give us a thing or two about the subject. Meditation, after all, is a science in the truest sense of the word. With meditation (no matter what form it is), you go through a particular experiment, practice, or injunction; you acquire data from said injunction; and you submit your "findings" to others who have also gone through the injunction (peer evaluation). Pure science. In fact, I have heard the phrases "mind and spirit science" tossed around a lot. And, for good reason too.

Now, by saying meditation is a science, I'm not trying to imply that thats all it is. But a scientific method of sorts is fundamental to any kind of meditation, contemplative prayer, chi kung, or whatever do-dang practice you're into.

The only way to "prove" chi exists, just like the only to "prove" that "God" exists is by direct, firsthand experience. There is a science to these experiences, obviously, but because it isn't completely materialistic and reductionist, many of the "hard" scientists will give you giggles. But, to be frank, these individuals have not gone through the injunctions in question themselves and so they aren't exactly "peers" in this particular regard. It would be like me laughing at a biologist's theories when I haven't even bothered to look through the miscroscope and observe the "evidence" myself.

Well, these are my thoughts anyway. I could be wrong, you know.


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## albert (Dec 13, 2003)

Reverse punch KIAIII!!!1

this is chi.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by albert _
> *Reverse punch KIAIII!!!1
> 
> this is chi. *


Hardly. :shrug: Any bozo can yell Kiaiii and punch. Ki is not only syncronizing the body and the breath, but also the mind, to achieve a result that is greater than the sum of its parts. If you can only type 60 words per minute and one day you are just "on it" and you type 100 words per minute with little error. That is Ki.
Sean


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## MisterMike (Dec 14, 2003)

My understanding is that the idea of Chi came from china. Wether it was defined as a higher state to achieve, or an untapped life force that we theoretically all have, I think it would take someone experiencing it to really describe it.

When the idea made it over to Japan as Ki, it was interpretted a bit differently. Some say that the Chinese are better at invoking ki as they have studied it longer.

But no-one can really put their finger on what it is. It's not physical, but can enhance your strength. There are different interpretations on what it represents, depending on your origins.

But you can see the limitations of the Scientific Method, as there are things that even it, in all it's *intellectual* glory, cannot come to terms with.

I guess we have to cut out a few paragraphs from Ed Parker's Infinite Insights books, since his art was purely scientific. :shrug:


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## heretic888 (Dec 14, 2003)

> My understanding is that the idea of Chi came from china.



Technically speaking, the concept of Ch'i (as its understood in the East) probably originated with the pranayama of India.



> Wether it was defined as a higher state to achieve, or an untapped life force that we theoretically all have, I think it would take someone experiencing it to really describe it.



Well, in the Chinese systems they differentiate between jing, ch'i, and shen --- which is what you might be talking about.



> When the idea made it over to Japan as Ki, it was interpretted a bit differently. Some say that the Chinese are better at invoking ki as they have studied it longer.



No, I'd simply say that the Japanese concept of ki is not the same as the Chinese ch'i, even though the words are direct translations of one another. In my opinion, "ki" as understood in Japanese traditions seems to be more reminiscent of the Chinese concept of "shen" than with ch'i per se.



> But you can see the limitations of the Scientific Method, as there are things that even it, in all it's intellectual glory, cannot come to terms with.



Actually, this is a fallacy.

The scientific method, in terms of the truth claims that it seeks, is perfectly capable of acquiring knowledge concerning ch'i and the like. I pointed above what the scientific method entails: an injunction, datum, and peer evaluation. Period. Anyone that adds anything else to that and claims that you *have* to do this to be doing science is belching a lot of hot air. 

There is nothing to scientific empiricism that assumes a materialism or reductionism: psychologists and anthropologists are among the most competent scientists I know. The scientific method is perfectly capable of studying non-physical and internal phenomena. Which it does. Quite often.

Now, this is not to say that science is the _only_ way to approach the world. For, science really only deals with things like natural facts and laws. For things like meaning and beauty and what is "good", you'll have to look elsewhere (namely to religion, art, and philosophy/ethics). But to think science is _just_ a materialistic discipline is the height of folly.

Yes, the 'spiritual sciences' of meditation and chi kung are doing the scientific method. They have an injunction, a practice. There is a datum or illumination that said injunction discloses. And there is a group of peers who have also gone through the injunction to "evaluate" your experiences (teachers, buyu, etc.). Now, again, I'm not saying that meditation or chi kung or martial arts are _just_ science, they are arts after all. However, there is a definite and real scientific method being approached to their study.

And this doesn't even go into the stuff that the "hard" sciences could add! I'm reminded of the EEG studies concerning the brainwaves of meditators, of cross-cultural anthropological/sociological studies concerning the "perennial philosophy" and overall human development/experience, and I even once recall seeing some special on Kung Fu on Discovery n which a machine was hooked up to a certain martial artist and it would show his image "light up" whenever he used "ch'i".

So, to think science has nothing to add concerning this issue is far from accurate. Laterz.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *
> Well, in the Chinese systems they differentiate between jing, ch'i, and shen --- which is what you might be talking about.
> *




Could you give this neophyte in Chinese culture and arts a definition of the terms you used here. Since you state there is a distinction, I would like to know from what frame of refernece you and others are posting from.

Thank You


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## Makalakumu (Dec 14, 2003)

If chi exists, it should be possible to study it with the scientific method.  If it exists, it should be possible to make in empirical.  If chi exists there should be a way to detect its presence outside of the human experience.  Perhaps a chi-tector or something  

Earl Montaigue writes with accupuncturist Wally Simpson in the Encyclopedia of Dim-mak about this subject.  They say that chi is a force that flows through the body and can be enhanced or disrupted causing various bodily effects.  They state that knowing points on the body along various meridians can heal or harm a subject when they are manipulated in certain ways.  The example they give as evidence for this phenomenon is a study on accupuncture and anesthesiology.  A specific drug has effects on the brain that are measurable with a very sensative voltmeter.  This change in electrical current causes the patient to go unconscious.  When accupuncture was applied, the same change in electrical current occured and unconsciousness resulted.  Along the same line of reason is the fact that electrical potential can be measured on the skin in various channels that correspond to some of the major meridians (those that follow the tracks of major nerves).  So, perhaps it can be said that chi is an electromagnetic force.  

Which brings more questions....  

1.  If it is an electromagnetic force, how is it manipulated by our bodies.  Is this done on a cellular level or is it something else?  

2.  Then there is the mystery of the tantien.  No potential difference is measured in that area, with the greatest difference measured on the brain.  Why is there a focus on the tantien?  

3.  How is chi manipulated from the outside?  Are our bodies able to create a magnetic field that changes another person in some way?  Can this field be expressed over long distances?

4.  What are the limitations of chi manipulation in our bodies?  Is it possible that learned manipulation would give superhuman abilities?  Could these manipulations be caused by something external?

This is all conjecture, so far.  There have been some studies on the subject, but none by major organizations as far as I can tell.  If chi is an electromagnetic force, then it might not be right to call it chi.  Then there is the fact that Manipulation of points that have no electric potential difference cause differing bodily effects.  Manipulations work better on those who believe in chi.  Which makes in indistinguishable from the placebo effect.  In the end, scientists have always found that biological cause is always explanable in recorded cases where chi is actually studied.

Perhaps chi is only in our minds and it is our imaginations that extend it to others possibly causing a placebo effect to occur in their bodies.  

Carl Jung has some interesting things to say about internal energies.  He believes that we are all connected in a collective way and that our manipulations in our bodies and that our relationships to other people are influenced by this connection.  Perhaps that connection is chi?  

Who knows?  Any other comments?

John


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## MA-Caver (Dec 14, 2003)

I've always believed in the existence of chi in the sense that it's the energy field created by our souls. Much like the Force from Star Wars and the way Kenobi described it... (no, really I'm being serious here); "...it's an energy field created by all living things, it surrounds us, penetrates us and binds the galaxy together." 

Even further explained in Empire Strikes Back: 
YODA:  "And well you should not.  For my ally is the Force.  And a powerful ally it is.  Life creates it, makes it grow.  Its energy surrounds us and binds us.  Luminous beings are we... (Yoda pinches  Luke's shoulder) ... not this crude matter. (a sweeping gesture) You must feel the Force around you. (gesturing). Here, between you... me... the  tree... the rock... everywhere!  Yes, even between this land and that ship!"

Chi is basically the same thing. The energy that is put out by our eternal souls is indeed powerful enough to do incredible things. We, modern-day folk have just forgotten how.  But there are a few who have studied long and hard and have found out ways to contact the chi that resides in all of us.  
We all have different definitions and concepts of what it is but it's just my own two bit idea I'm stating here. 

:asian:


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## Makalakumu (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MACaver _
> *I've always believed in the existence of chi in the sense that it's the energy field created by our souls. Much like the Force from Star Wars and the way Kenobi described it... (no, really I'm being serious here); "...it's an energy field created by all living things, it surrounds us, penetrates us and binds the galaxy together."
> 
> Even further explained in Empire Strikes Back:
> ...



Obi-wan and Yoda basically thought that the force of the Electromagnetic force according to your comments.  "an energy field created by all living things"  "That which binds us all together"  "a force that is everywhere"

If there are adepts out there that can perform wondrous miracles don't you think that more people would know about them?  If there were adepts out there that can perform wondrous miracles, don't you think that would end any questioning?  Where are these people and what can they REALLY do?  Unless anybody can be shown, even the non-believer, it is not credible according to scientific thought.


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## MisterMike (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Technically speaking, the concept of Ch'i (as its understood in the East) probably originated with the pranayama of India.
> *


 
Probably? Um, OK.



> [
> Well, in the Chinese systems they differentiate between jing, ch'i, and shen --- which is what you might be talking about.
> [/B]


 
OK, so now we have 3 to deal with . The questions still remains.

And the scientific method still cannot give us an answer, and therefor Ki has about as much relevence as religion. In some cultures, the two are intertwined.


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## heretic888 (Dec 14, 2003)

> If chi exists, it should be possible to study it with the scientific method. If it exists, it should be possible to make in empirical.



Yes.



> If chi exists there should be a way to detect its presence outside of the human experience. Perhaps a chi-tector or something



Ummmm..... no.

You're again thinking ch'i is a physical force. It is not. A physicist, biologist, or chemist would be just as incapable of proving that ch'i exists using external measurements as they are proving that minds exist. Of course, we all know that minds exist. Why?? Direct, firsthand experience. See the pattern??  



> Earl Montaigue writes with accupuncturist Wally Simpson in the Encyclopedia of Dim-mak about this subject. They say that chi is a force that flows through the body and can be enhanced or disrupted causing various bodily effects. They state that knowing points on the body along various meridians can heal or harm a subject when they are manipulated in certain ways. The example they give as evidence for this phenomenon is a study on accupuncture and anesthesiology. A specific drug has effects on the brain that are measurable with a very sensative voltmeter. This change in electrical current causes the patient to go unconscious. When accupuncture was applied, the same change in electrical current occured and unconsciousness resulted. Along the same line of reason is the fact that electrical potential can be measured on the skin in various channels that correspond to some of the major meridians (those that follow the tracks of major nerves). So, perhaps it can be said that chi is an electromagnetic force.



That's a very nice theory and all, but it has one major flaw: it fails to distinguish from correlation and causation. Is the experience of ch'i the result of electropolar activity?? Or is the electropolar activity the result of ch'i?? The mind can have some very real biochemical effects on the body, but you aren't going to hear me claiming that the mind is just a collection of chemicals and neurons. Its the same with ch'i here.



> Chi is basically the same thing. The energy that is put out by our eternal souls is indeed powerful enough to do incredible things.



*chuckles* I think Lucas got it backwards. Ch'i (or whatever word for "univeral cosmic force/energy/essence" you wish to insert here) is not created by living beings. Living beings are created by ch'i. After all, this assumes that before there was "life" there was no ch'i --- which doesn't make a whole lotta sense.



> Obi-wan and Yoda basically thought that the force of the Electromagnetic force according to your comments. "an energy field created by all living things" "That which binds us all together" "a force that is everywhere"



I didn't get that interpretation at all. Not once did the characters refer to it as a merely physical force. In fact, Yoda says the exact opposite.



> If there are adepts out there that can perform wondrous miracles don't you think that more people would know about them?



No.



> If there were adepts out there that can perform wondrous miracles, don't you think that would end any questioning?



No. There are people that still think Bruce Lee's "two inch punch" was a big hoax.



> Where are these people and what can they REALLY do?



I'd assume they're all over the world here and there. 



> Unless anybody can be shown, even the non-believer, it is not credible according to scientific thought.



This is without a doubt a logical fallacy.

This would be like assuming anybody that is presented the Copernican theories concerning astronomy would be convinced of their truth. Yet the church leaders obviously felt otherwise. Unless you look through the telescope, you'll never "get" what Copernicus got. You have to go through the injunction to be a "scientific peer". That is what science is all about --- empiricism, direct observation and experience. And ch'i can't be directly observed externally. It has to be "felt", as they say, a very internal phenomena.

The only way to validate the truth or non-truth of ch'i is to go through the injunction that are supposed to disclose the experience of ch'i, and then to submit and compare your findings to "peers" that have also gone through said injunctions. That is science, pure and simple.

No one is going to "prove" ch'i by putting out a candle from 3 feet away, or tossing someone with a 2 inch punch. That's really cool, but it doesn't prove anything. The only way to "prove" ch'i (or God) is to do the science yourself.



> And the scientific method still cannot give us an answer, and therefor Ki has about as much relevence as religion.



I'm sorry, Mike, but that was a very inane response.

I devoted several paragraphs to this thread detailing what exactly "the scientific method" is, how it is not exclusively materialistic, and how Ch'i can be approached scientifically. And, even mentioned how the "hard" sciences can study the external correlates of ch'i and meditation (such as variations in the EEG machine). Then, you come and declare "science cannot give us an answer" --- apparently for no other reason than you say so.

If you're going to make rigid, authoritarian statements please back them up. Thank you. :shrug: 

Later all. Keep up the discussion. This is going quite well.


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## MisterMike (Dec 14, 2003)

I'm not questioning your definition, although it is different than other's I've seen on here. The "real" wordage doesn't even concern me.

But we're trying to apply this method to Ki, which in my opinion, is like trying to prove religion. I feel they are both beliefs.


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## heretic888 (Dec 14, 2003)

> I'm not questioning your definition, although it is different than other's I've seen on here. The "real" wordage doesn't even concern me.



If you don't seem to care about what "real" science is, then perhaps you shouldn't be making claims about what it can and cannot do.



> But we're trying to apply this method to Ki, which in my opinion, is like trying to prove religion. I feel they are both beliefs.



Only popular (and politically correct) opinion has given the illusion that certain aspects of religion cannot be proven and/or disproven. Just because someone believes something doesn't make it true.

*Any* claim that proposes the ability to replicate an experience of some kind is under the realm of the scientific method. That is the scientific method in action. People need to learn that religion and science are not diametrically opposite as they would like to believe.


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## MisterMike (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *If you don't seem to care about what "real" science is, then perhaps you shouldn't be making claims about what it can and cannot do.
> 
> 
> ...



No I'm not. Don't twist what I say. I'm not concerned with what EVERYONE thinks the scientific method definition is. I've got a good enough handle on it. It's not the topic.

So what can you say to the topic of the existance of Ki?

Please, enlighten us  

Oh ya, that somehow, it can be studied scientifically. That is, once we have a definition of what it is and a theory of how it exists.


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## Makalakumu (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *You're again thinking ch'i is a physical force. It is not. A physicist, biologist, or chemist would be just as incapable of proving that ch'i exists using external measurements as they are proving that minds exist. Of course, we all know that minds exist. Why?? Direct, firsthand experience. See the pattern??  *



The fundamental assumption of your argument is that there are physical forces and there are spiritual forces.  This is where your entire argument fails.  Reread my post and combine the physical and spiritual forces.  Look, NOTHING exist outside what we can sense and the sooner you shift your mind from your duality and realize that the physical experience is spiritual, the more science will start to unify with religion/spirituality.

upnorth


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## Makalakumu (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *
> 
> 1.  That's a very nice theory and all, but it has one major flaw: it fails to distinguish from correlation and causation. Is the experience of ch'i the result of electropolar activity?? Or is the electropolar activity the result of ch'i?? The mind can have some very real biochemical effects on the body, but you aren't going to hear me claiming that the mind is just a collection of chemicals and neurons. Its the same with ch'i here.
> ...



1.  The electromagnetic force measurable along nerve pathways is the result of the transmission of electrons in the form of a message to your muscles.  This signal begins in the brain and spreads throughout the nerves to its intended target.  Your assertion that chi could be the cause of this has absolutely no basis.

2.  Perhaps.  Chaos theory states that there is a self-ordering property to the universe.  This could account for the various states of matter we see in the universe and it could be called chi.  This theory does not explain alot of other things about chi though.

3.  Don't assume anything or you will be susceptible to charletenry.  Where are these adepts?

4.  You contradict yourself.  Peer review is not review by "friends"  its review by anyone, including the non-believer.  In fact, one of the most important thing about science is showing a person who completely disagrees with your hypothesis your evidence to support your hypothesis.  The only way to support the existance of chi is to show its existance in the physcial world.  It must be detected and measured or it does not exist.

If you can present some physical evidence of chi, please do so.

John


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Could you give this neophyte in Chinese culture and arts a definition of the terms you used here. Since you state there is a distinction, I would like to know from what frame of reference you and others are posting from.
> 
> Thank You *




Heretic888,

I know I must be on your ignore list 

Could you answer my questions? I would like to learn.

Thank You


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## Cruentus (Dec 22, 2003)

Hmmm....

I've heard the comparison between Chi and Religion, which I think is a poor comparison.

My understanding of Chi is that it is an actual, physical force. This would mean that it would be measurable somehow, even if we haven't figured out how to measure it yet. It would also be observable. 

Religion refers to a belief about God (or Gods, or No God). If something does exist that created our reality, then it would exist beyond the limitations of our reality, meaning that it would be imeasurable. Or, if the athiests are correct, then there wouldn't be a god, meaning that it wouldn't be measurable. 

I am not trying to get into a religious discussion here, but to me Religion involves a belief, not a measurable force. "Chi" is supposed to be an actual measurable force...not just a belief. 

So either Chi exists, or it doesn't...it doesn't matter what I believe. It can either be proven to exist or it cannot because it doesn't.

I believe that there is plenty of evidence that it at least exists. Acupuncture lends us enough evidence of Chi, I believe. I think our real challange is in discovering a way of understanding how it works, how to measure it, how it may or may not be important to us, and what its limitations are (what it can and can't do). That, I think, is our real challange, not tryong to "prove" its existance which seems to me to have been already proven.

PAUL


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## SThiess (Dec 22, 2003)

Just because you cannot proof it scientifically, does not mean that it does not exist. This is one of the biggest misconceptions of man kind. The whole chinese medicine is based on the principle of CHI and it has proofen itself in the meantime that it works.  And there are also several different forms of CHI. Without chi you would not be alife. Scientists are able to show the existance of CHI but till today that have no clue where it comes from and how to scientifically proof it's existance. The best thing is just to accept things and not to proof them all the time.


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## Cruentus (Dec 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SThiess _
> *Just because you cannot proof it scientifically, does not mean that it does not exist. This is one of the biggest misconceptions of man kind. The whole chinese medicine is based on the principle of CHI and it has proofen itself in the meantime that it works.  And there are also several different forms of CHI. Without chi you would not be alife. Scientists are able to show the existance of CHI but till today that have no clue where it comes from and how to scientifically proof it's existance. The best thing is just to accept things and not to proof them all the time. *



I disagree with your last sentance particularly. I think that the success of acupuncture and acupreasure "proves" the existance of Chi. I don't think we should just "accept things" though, other then for the time being. Our inability to measure Chi only speaks to our limitations in science. But that doesn't mean that science will NEVER be able to measure Chi....things come in time.

I think its good for us to try to learn more about things...

PAUL


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## Makalakumu (Dec 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I think that the success of acupuncture and acupreasure "proves" the existance of Chi. *



Acupuncture and Acupressure prove nothing about chi.  There is no way to distinguish these effects from the placebo effect.  If scientists were able to measure a change in an energy field in response to point manipulations, this would be better data.  So far, no study that I have seen has been able to do this.


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## Cruentus (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *Acupuncture and Acupressure prove nothing about chi.  There is no way to distinguish these effects from the placebo effect.  If scientists were able to measure a change in an energy field in response to point manipulations, this would be better data.  So far, no study that I have seen has been able to do this. *



I watched (on Television) a brain surgury take place in Japan. The patient was awake and communicating the entire time; they used no anastetic other then acupuncture to redirect the electrical energy so that she wouldn't feel pain.

Now, if we want to distinguish these effects from a placebo, I guess we could cut into someones head without anastetic and w/o acupuncture, but we could only TELL them that it won't hurt. Would you like to volunteer your skull for the experiment...cause I ain't voluntering mine!   

Acupuncture has been proven to "work" by the use of placebo in different Western Universities, such as UCLA. Acupuncture is based off "Chi". Now although we can't accurately measure "chi", the fact that acupuncture can work based off the principle of manipulating this "unseen energy" proves that it at least "exists."

Dispite what a lot of people seem to be saying here, Chi is not just an "idea". Its a physical energy, that can be proven or disproven, and measured (even if we don't know how to yet measure it). Now I know this takes a lot of the mysticism out of the equation for some of you, so I apoligize for ruining the fantasy. 

So, if you (any of you, not directed at one person) want Chi to be an infinite unprovable energy, fine with me. I'm sure you can see dead people, communicate telapathically, and fly around out of body at night too. I, however, prefer hard science to explain things (when possible and available). Hard science says that it exists. If you don't like it, take it up with the medical community.

(I am now waiting for someone to tell me that gravity and water are only observable ideas also...:shrug: )

PAUL


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## Cruentus (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *According to modern physics, there are four fundamental forces.  There is gravitation, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force.  Could there be a force that physicists know nothing about (chi) or is chi one of the fundamental forces in disguise.  Do people believe that this form of energy exists?  Can anyone produce research that supports the existance of chi? *



I will say this though...They aren't exactly sure if Chi is another force in disguise, or if it is it's own seperate force. They are still trying to figure that one out. So...does it exist...yes. Is it a seperate force from what we have already discovered....don't know yet.

Now...I am of the PERSONAL OPINION that it is a seperate energy outside of what physicists have categorized. I say this because we know how to measure these other energies, yet we can't yet measure Chi. If it was one of these other energies (or some kind of combination) "in disguise" then we would be able to measure it, I would think, no? Since we can;t yet measure it, this makes me think its something different.


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## Cruentus (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by albert _
> *Reverse punch KIAIII!!!1
> 
> this is chi. *



Absolutely! Hey...I felt it through my computer screen; if Chi is only an idea then hey, who could tell me I'm wrong?  

Good Chi Demo albert! :rofl:


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## Makalakumu (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I will say this though...They aren't exactly sure if Chi is another force in disguise, or if it is it's own seperate force. They are still trying to figure that one out. So...does it exist...yes. Is it a seperate force from what we have already discovered....don't know yet.
> 
> Now...I am of the PERSONAL OPINION that it is a seperate energy outside of what physicists have categorized. I say this because we know how to measure these other energies, yet we can't yet measure Chi. If it was one of these other energies (or some kind of combination) "in disguise" then we would be able to measure it, I would think, no? Since we can;t yet measure it, this makes me think its something different.
> ...



This is pure conjecture, but if you have read anything about Chaos Theory, the concept of Chi is very reminiscent of the self ordering property inherit in material objects of the universe.  I'm not sure if this could be classified as a force.  

I'm of the opinion that Chi is the electromagnetic force in disguise.  Your example about brain surgury above neatly supports this explanation.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 23, 2003)

Force = Mass * Acceleration. OR FMA 

Force has a direction. Energy is either Kenetic or Potential.

Chi is the Potential Energy inside someone. When it is expressed it becomes Kenetic Energy, and this force is felt.

Now, this force has more effect then then standard F=M*A Kenetic energy. The Sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts when measured separately.

Just My Opinion and approach to understanding


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## Cruentus (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *This is pure conjecture, but if you have read anything about Chaos Theory, the concept of Chi is very reminiscent of the self ordering property inherit in material objects of the universe.  I'm not sure if this could be classified as a force.  *


*

I've read about Chaos theory, but I am having trouble making the connection. Wouldn't there have to be a force of some kind behind material objects allowing them to "self order"? I think you'll find that there is as far as we know.




			I'm of the opinion that Chi is the electromagnetic force in disguise.  Your example about brain surgury above neatly supports this explanation.
		
Click to expand...

*
Fair enough...we'll have to see what Science comes up with! :asian:


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## Cruentus (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Force = Mass * Acceleration. OR FMA
> 
> Force has a direction. Energy is either Kenetic or Potential.
> ...



That is a good explaination of how.

I am very curious about the "what" part, though. Electromagnetic, Nuclear, or some "new" type of bioelectricity that we can't yet measure? I lean towards the latter.

PAUL


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## Makalakumu (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I've read about Chaos theory, but I am having trouble making the connection. Wouldn't there have to be a force of some kind behind material objects allowing them to "self order"? I think you'll find that there is as far as we know.*



Chaos theory describes a property in nature that is self ordering.  I would think that this could be a force, but the theory itself describes it as "order in randomness."  As far as its link to chi, this is a nice way to describe how chi could be in "everything" and it could also explain how chi is suppose to be the force that "keeps us alive."  Some other things about this do not make sense though.  How could a property be manipulated or "channeled" for instance.

Upnorthkyosa


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## Makalakumu (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I am very curious about the "what" part, though. Electromagnetic, Nuclear, or some "new" type of bioelectricity that we can't yet measure? I lean towards the latter.*



Any bioelectricity would be electromagnetic energy.  A new type of energy would be "life force" what ever that could be.  Perhaps there is a fifth fundamental force that we know nothing about.  If anything, I would say a candidate would be the self ordering property of chaos theory.  "The self ordering force"

Oi, my head hurts.  Too much sparring and not enough blocking.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jan 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by albert _
> *Reverse punch KIAIII!!!1
> 
> this is chi. *




No, it is "yi" - intention, which directs chi.  And I'd rather direct my chi through my hand than my mouth.

And also, "being in the groove" is "kung fu" -- not "chi".


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jan 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> * ... Ki has about as much relevence as religion. In some cultures, the two are intertwined. *



And religion IS relevant.  See my article in this month's magazine issue.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jan 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *If chi exists, it should be possible to study it with the scientific method.  If it exists, it should be possible to make in empirical.  If chi exists there should be a way to detect its presence outside of the human experience.  Perhaps a chi-tector or something  ... *



Kirlian photography for starters, and a lot more equipment is out there now.

But the premise that if something exists, it must be measurable scientifically, gives WAY TOO MUCH credit to Western scientific method.

A very limited framework, indeed.


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## TonyM. (Jan 11, 2004)

According to my physicist friends the four powers mentioned in the first post are all the same. Forms of electromagnatism.


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## Phil Elmore (Jan 11, 2004)

Religion is not a tool of cognition.


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## Cruentus (Jan 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *Any bioelectricity would be electromagnetic energy.  A new type of energy would be "life force" what ever that could be.  Perhaps there is a fifth fundamental force that we know nothing about.  If anything, I would say a candidate would be the self ordering property of chaos theory.  "The self ordering force"
> 
> Oi, my head hurts.  Too much sparring and not enough blocking. *



Chaos theory is an explaination of how things "in nature" "self order," but it does nothing to explain to us "what" that force might be. It finds patterns, but it doesn't define physical forces. I would go with the idea that it could be electromagnetic energy if this question could be answered for me: Why can't we measure "Chi" (if it is an electromagnetic force) when we can measure electromagnetic force?

If Chi is a type of bioelectricity that is not electromagnetic, then that crushes our idea that all bioelectricity is electromagnetic, eh?


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## Makalakumu (Jan 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TonyM. _
> *According to my physicist friends the four powers mentioned in the first post are all the same. Forms of electromagnatism. *



It is theorized that when the equations for "Quantum Gravity" are complete (if that ever happens) they will show the four forces combined into one.  Otherwise, this is nothing but conjecture.  

I, too, think that many manifestations that we label as chi are really just electromagnetism.  Other, though, fit a self ordering property in the universe - ie...chaos theory.  Who says that chi has to correspond to only one thing that science can describe?  Maybe our understanding of chi has placed a label on something that is fragmented and complex?


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jan 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Religion is not a tool of cognition. *



It's not supposed to be.

And science is not a good tool for finding meaning in people's lives.  All the empirical data in the world means nothing until it is seen in a larger context.  Scientific facts by themselves are neutral, and therefore not very helpful in understanding who we are.

Try cutting water with a knife or picking up air with a spoon.  Or as the angel said to Daniel "Measure me a bushel of wind or a pound of fire."  And Einstein said, "Religion without science is blind; Science without religion is lame."

These aren't just cute quotes -- what I am getting at is simple.  Truth is not limited to science, and meaning is what you apply to science, theology, and any other tools (as that is all they are).  Scientific truths can be dealt with scientifically, and spiritual truths can be dealt with theologically (or philosophically, etc.).  Use the right tool for the right job.  Better yet, acknowledge all disciplines and studies for what they are, and use them all accordingly.

If your intellect is confined to one framework, especially if it is merely Western (or Eastern) scientific method by itself, you will forever be in denial of one reality or another, or rather many realities that we experience in life.

I can go through countless everyday examples of how chi seems to defy the laws of physics, simply because those "laws" are not "designed" to help one understand what is undeniably being experienced.  They must be understood in a different framework of understanding the world.

I hate quoting myself, but to avoid going into a dissertation to clarify all the arguments for and against chi, seriously -- check out my articles in Martial Talk magazine, especially the first two in the series on "The Reality of Chi" (July & August 2003).


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jan 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *... Why can't we measure "Chi" (if it is an electromagnetic force) when we can measure electromagnetic force? ...*



Chi IS measurable with scientific equipment.  A couple of years ago, they actually discovered electromagnetic energy flowing through the body in specific paths.

"Coincidentally" the paths were identical to the chi meridians in Chinese medicine.

<sarcasm> But of course, it must not have existed before then because no one could PROVE what the Chinese knew for millennia. </sarcasm>


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## Cruentus (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *Chi IS measurable with scientific equipment.  A couple of years ago, they actually discovered electromagnetic energy flowing through the body in specific paths.
> 
> "Coincidentally" the paths were identical to the chi meridians in Chinese medicine.
> ...



Relax there buddy...I am not trying to say that things don't exist if I don't "see it" or that I won't believe something until Modern Science can "prove it." Remember, I am one of the ones on this thread who believes that Chi exists. 

In fact, it seems evident to me that there are a lot of things that eastern and indigenous medicine and healing methods seem to address that western medicine doesn't, and there are a lot of phenomenom that modern science hasn't been able to fully explain.

However, what I do get tired of is stuff like the Chi master who does things like "throwing" a willing student without touching them physically, and then goes on to use the arguement that "Some things western physics will never understand" because they want us to believe that what they are doing is "beyond the physical." This is crap. If the effects are physical, such as the person is being projected accross the room, then these physical effects should be measureable somehow, in a consistant fashion. Even if Modern Science is far behind ancient eastern thought in regards to the subject, that doesn't mean that we should take physical effects on "faith alone."

Even though I believe that they are 2 different subjects, I'll use religion as an example. I believe in God. This is a belief about the metaphysical that cannot be physically proven or disproven. But, now lets say that I believe that a certian minister has been given the gift to perform miracles, and that he can heal peoples illnesses by touching them. I have now crossed the line of "faith" and "metaphysical" into the "physical." If someone can perform miracles, which is a physical result, then we should be able to prove with at least one of these miracles that it at the very least defies Modern Medicine.

See what I am saying? If Chi is only a metaphisical notion that makes people feel better about the world around them, then I can't sit here and try to ask for "scientific proof." But, since people who believe in Chi are not saying that it is just a "belief," but are saying that it is a force that has physical effects, then we should be able to measure or test these effects no matter how limited our understanding is.

Anyways, I am rambling now, but I think you get where I am coming from. I believe in Chi, and I believe that it has been proven, and that we are learning more and more about it every day. Yet, I get tired of "Chi clowns" who claim superhuman powers from Chi, yet refuse to even suggest that there could ever be any physical evidence to back their claims. I know you are not one of these, for the record, so you don't think I am insulting you here. I liked your articles so far, btw Ken. I am just trying to let you know where I am coming from in my post here. Also, do you have any more info you can post about the discovery of electromagnetic energy along Chi Meridians? If that study is correct, do you believe it proves that Chi is electromagnetic, or do you think it could be something else?

:asian: 
PAUL


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## Makalakumu (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *
> 
> 1.  I can go through countless everyday examples of how chi seems to defy the laws of physics...
> ...



1.  For the sake of this discussion, could you post a few examples?
2.  Could you also post a link to the article you mentioned?  I am having trouble finding it.

Do not think of science as purely Western thought.  If I am using a spear to hunt and I use observations to modify and enhance my spear to make it more efficient, I am doing science.  Science is human nature.


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## MisterMike (Jan 12, 2004)

Is Chi something only humans can have? If the same channels could be measured in a dog, would it be tru that dogs have Chi as well?

Or does it take some mental aptitude to have Chi? Do we have to be able to think to turn it on or off when using it for additional power?

If animals do have it,  can they access it during a fight-or-flight type scenario?

Just letting my thoughts loose here...

:asian:


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## Makalakumu (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *Is Chi something only humans can have? If the same channels could be measured in a dog, would it be tru that dogs have Chi as well?
> 
> Or does it take some mental aptitude to have Chi? Do we have to be able to think to turn it on or off when using it for additional power?
> ...



Awesome questions!  My instructor says that the meridians in dogs have been mapped and accupuncturists can needle their pets.  How about that - an eastern veterinarian.  I will admit that I have not actually read any information on this.  Perhaps someone out there has a little nugget they would like to share...


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *2.  Could you also post a link to the article you mentioned?  I am having trouble finding it.
> *



http://martialtalk.com/magazine  July issue is a free download, August issue is in the subscriber archives area.

July issue 2MB PDF (requires Adobe Acrobat Reader)

August issue 2MB PDF (Requires login)


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## theletch1 (Jan 12, 2004)

> dogs have Chi as well


 Would that make him a Chi-a pet?


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## MisterMike (Jan 12, 2004)

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Relax there buddy...... PAUL *



No confrontation intended ... and a good, intellignet, open-minded response.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *1.  For the sake of this discussion, could you post a few examples?
> 2.  Could you also post a link to the article you mentioned?  I am having trouble finding it.
> 
> Do not think of science as purely Western thought.  If I am using a spear to hunt and I use observations to modify and enhance my spear to make it more efficient, I am doing science.  Science is human nature. *



There is a clear difference between Eaastern and Western scientific method.  I can elaborate laetr, but I'm pressed for time right now.

The articles are in the magazine section, but you may have to be a subscriber.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *Is Chi something only humans can have? If the same channels could be measured in a dog, would it be tru that dogs have Chi as well?
> 
> Or does it take some mental aptitude to have Chi? Do we have to be able to think to turn it on or off when using it for additional power?
> ...



Animals use their chi all the time -- like when your cat doesn't want to be picked up.


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## Cruentus (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *No confrontation intended ... and a good, intellignet, open-minded response. *



Thanks...I wasn't sure if there confrontation or not, but I didn't thank there was.

Hey, when you get a chance, could you answer these:



> do you have any more info you can post about the discovery of electromagnetic energy along Chi Meridians? If that study is correct, do you believe it proves that Chi is electromagnetic, or do you think it could be something else?



I wasn't sure if you caught those at the end of my lengthy post. I value your opinion regarding this matter, so you input would be appreciated.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Thanks...I wasn't sure if there confrontation or not, but I didn't thank there was.
> 
> Hey, when you get a chance, could you answer these:
> ...



Actually, I believe chi is something far more -- electromagnetism is only a physical phenomenom realted to chi.  In otherwords, chi is not measurable, but it's effects in the physical world are.

Embarassing, but I can't find the news article offhand about the meridian measurements, but I remember it was in a mainstream news publication.  I usually keep a record of interesting stuf I come across related to such things.  I'll keep looking.


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