# Offensive move in Long 2



## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 2, 2003)

OK, yet another kenpo question that I have searched for the answer to and have not found an answer.  I am interested to see who knows the answer to this one because I surely do not.

In long 2 when you go into the smother punch and sweep/kick  then uppercut/upward forarm strike and the eye pokes.

I have to taught and told by many that this is the only offensive move in any kenpo form.  Well, is it just the opposite of all the other defensive moves or is it some other secret answer.:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Jul 2, 2003)

Whoops,

Might get a better idea from the Kenpo guys.

Thread can be moved easily by an administrator.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 2, 2003)

Mod Note: Thread moved.

:asian:


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## Kenpomachine (Jul 10, 2003)

I don't believe that's the only offensive move


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## jeffkyle (Jul 10, 2003)

All moves are offensive or defensive...a block can be a strike and a strike can be a block.  It is all a matter of perspective.


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## jeffkyle (Jul 10, 2003)

Take that move in long 2 you just described.  
You have the "smother" punch, which could be a block, but for consistency's sake lets keep it as a strike since that is the way Most teach it.  But the "uppercut/upward forarm strike" could be simply an upward block for an overhead attack.  

Perspective.....


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 10, 2003)

I understand the principle to what your saying but I think if you analyze this motion you will see that this is an attack.  All other movements in forms and techniques can be see as counters/defense from an attack.

Think about it! The only time that we attack without being attacked first is in the freestyle techniques!  All of the 154 techniques  + extension are INITIALY counters/defensive in nature.  Thus, following that pattern the forms are the same except in this 1 secquence. My guess is that since that everything else is defensive then you would have to show an offensive move if you are to keep with the whole opposite/reverse theme.

I do not know why but it is there and if you will read Mr. Wedlakes Kenpo 201 he briefly address's this movement (p82).  He will be here in Hotlanta next weekend and I plan on asking him why.  Now, whether he tells me the answer to that one may be interesting as well.:asian:


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## jeffkyle (Jul 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atlanta-Kenpo _
> *I understand the principle to what your saying but I think if you analyze this motion you will see that this is an attack.  All other movements in forms and techniques can be see as counters/defense from an attack.*


* 

Actually I have analyzed this motion...and it can be an attack, or a defense against an attack.  I was originally taught this as a defense against an attack with NO sweep kick.




			Think about it! The only time that we attack without being attacked first is in the freestyle techniques!  All of the 154 techniques  + extension are INITIALY counters/defensive in nature.  Thus, following that pattern the forms are the same except in this 1 secquence. My guess is that since that everything else is defensive then you would have to show an offensive move if you are to keep with the whole opposite/reverse theme.
		
Click to expand...


Maybe that is how you see it, but have you ever tried Delayed Sword as an attack?  I don't see why it wouldn't work.*


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atlanta-Kenpo _
> *I understand the principle to what your saying but I think if you analyze this motion you will see that this is an attack.  All other movements in forms and techniques can be see as counters/defense from an attack.
> 
> Think about it! The only time that we attack without being attacked first is in the freestyle techniques!  All of the 154 techniques  + extension are INITIALY counters/defensive in nature.  Thus, following that pattern the forms are the same except in this 1 secquence. My guess is that since that everything else is defensive then you would have to show an offensive move if you are to keep with the whole opposite/reverse theme.
> ...



If it's the one I'm thinking of it can be either defense or offense, it depends on who's interpretation of the form you're getting.    There are literally hundreds of scenarios for this movement.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## jeffkyle (Jul 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *If it's the one I'm thinking of it can be either defense or offense, it depends on who's interpretation of the form you're getting.    There are literally hundreds of scenarios for this movement.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



Hundreds.....I was thinking thousands...or millions...  LOL!  Just playin wit ya Clyde!


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 10, 2003)

OK, I am trying to get your idea about how this movement can be used as a defensive counter.  What would the attack be and what would be the concepts and princples that would be expanded upon.  :karate:


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atlanta-Kenpo _
> *OK, I am trying to get your idea about how this movement can be used as a defensive counter.  What would the attack be and what would be the concepts and princples that would be expanded upon.  :karate: *



My recommendation is to grab a partner, have them do all sorts of kicks, punches, grabs, pulls etc. and see where you fit in the action.    You will not only have a better grasp of the form but the ability to analyze other movements within it and others forms you may know nothing about.     

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 11, 2003)

Well, I e-mail Mr Wedlake this same question and he told me that he would explain this to me when he comes up to hotlanta next weekend.  If I know Mr Wedlake he will not flat out give me an answer but rather point me in the right direction so that I can figure it our on my own.  I personaly like it when a instructor teaches that way because you never forget what you learned.  However, I will shar my knowledge with the forum when I get it.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atlanta-Kenpo _
> *Well, I e-mail Mr Wedlake this same question and he told me that he would explain this to me when he comes up to hotlanta next weekend.  If I know Mr Wedlake he will not flat out give me an answer but rather point me in the right direction so that I can figure it our on my own.  I personaly like it when a instructor teaches that way because you never forget what you learned.  However, I will shar my knowledge with the forum when I get it. *



Hmm, could've sworn I just did the same thing in the post above, wonder how that could've happened.     Give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, feed him for a liftetime.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Doc (Jul 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atlanta-Kenpo _
> *I understand the principle to what your saying but I think if you analyze this motion you will see that this is an attack.  All other movements in forms and techniques can be see as counters/defense from an attack.
> 
> Think about it! The only time that we attack without being attacked first is in the freestyle techniques!  All of the 154 techniques  + extension are INITIALY counters/defensive in nature.  Thus, following that pattern the forms are the same except in this 1 secquence. My guess is that since that everything else is defensive then you would have to show an offensive move if you are to keep with the whole opposite/reverse theme.
> ...



Whether an action is considered offensive or defensive depends on the context in which it is used and the intent. There is no such thing as a pure defensive or offensive action.


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## ikenpo (Jul 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Atlanta-Kenpo _
> *OK, I am trying to get your idea about how this movement can be used as a defensive counter.  What would the attack be and what would be the concepts and princples that would be expanded upon.  :karate: *



Getting away from the idea that every offensive move by an attacker has to be a punch or a kick. Could an aggressive step in on the part of an attacker be considered an "offensive movement"?

Could tie into the idea of a "positional strategy" from a stand up perspective (i.e. the attacker has aggressively crossed into what I consider my personal space and where I feel a "counter offensive" movement is necessary). Just a thought...

jb:asian:


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## dcence (Jul 14, 2003)

For a defensive perspective, imagine an attacker at the 45 degree angle grabbing your right shoulder with his left hand.  Smothering punch to the face, lifting forearm strike under chin, eye pokes to eyes.  

This technique (call it Thrusting Leaves) allows for the opponent pulling you forward  by your right shoulder, and because he has not cancelled your zones, you are able to move forward into the front cross over and still hit with the left hand.

Just a thought.

Derek Ence


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## FiveSwords (Jul 16, 2003)

Most of the tech in the forms can be taken  in many different contexts as to whether it is offensive/defensive. 

The only one I'd be hard-pressed to find a context for that is a result of direct and immediate provocation is Hopping Crane in Long 5.


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 22, 2003)

Well, I spoke to Mr Wedlake this weekend and his explaination was simply that whole series of move YES are offensive but it all fits into the catorgory completetion idea/opposit and reverse theme.  If you look back and what I thought it was I was right but there are also other things there that you can see if you look at it and study it.:asian:


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FiveSwords _
> *Most of the tech in the forms can be taken  in many different contexts as to whether it is offensive/defensive.
> 
> The only one I'd be hard-pressed to find a context for that is a result of direct and immediate provocation is Hopping Crane in Long 5. *



It takes a skilled hand and foot to get the idea of Hopping Crane in a context that allows it to be useful.   You have to imagine what your opponent is doing on the ground and how you might thwart an attack from that position.   It's really hard to describe it here, easier to show in person.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## zoharroy (Jul 23, 2003)

I think the question is what is considered an attack?

for example, Would you wait for someone to lift a chair over their head to swing at you, or would you defend yourself as they were picking it up?


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