# From Kosho-Ryu Kempo...



## Milt G. (May 29, 2012)

Kata Ma-Ai No Jo, of Kosho-Ryu Kempo.
Bruce Juchnik lineage.






Are their similar Jo kata out there studied in the Kempo/Kenpo arts?

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Gentle Fist (May 30, 2012)

In NCK we only practice the Bo.   The Jo kata in the video has a ton of elements from the Bo katas we learn though; mainly Shushi No Kon Sho, Cerio No Kon Sho and Dai.  

Thanks for the post!


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## Chris Parker (May 30, 2012)

Who developed that sequence, Milt? Was it from Bruce Juchnik himself, do you know?


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## Xue Sheng (May 30, 2012)

I like Kosho and I like staff forms and I liked that but I haveto ask, this is a serious question; why so much self-flagellation in theform?

Please forgive me if that is a silly question and just chalk it up to me being an old CMA guy


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## Chris Parker (May 30, 2012)

Honestly, Xue, I don't think it's a silly question... I was kinda dancing around it, but my immediate response to the question "is there anyone else who has a kata like this?" was "dear god, I hope not!" I won't expand unless asked, though...


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## Milt G. (May 30, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Who developed that sequence, Milt? Was it from Bruce Juchnik himself, do you know?


Hello...
You know, I am not sure...?  He certainly may have.  He does that on occasion.  Guess I could just ask.  
The "idea" for it had to come from somewhere, though.
Oddly, I kind of enjoy researching this stuff.  The outcome is sometimes quite interesting.  
Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (May 30, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> I like Kosho and I like staff forms and I liked that but I haveto ask, this is a serious question; why so much self-flagellation in theform?
> 
> Please forgive me if that is a silly question and just chalk it up to me being an old CMA guy



Hello.
Just performed it the way I learned it.  
Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (May 30, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Honestly, Xue, I don't think it's a silly question... I was kinda dancing around it, but my immediate response to the question "is there anyone else who has a kata like this?" was "dear god, I hope not!" I won't expand unless asked, though...





Hello...
Was not really asking for a critique of the form...
Just asking if anyone had seen a similar Jo form in the Ken/mpo arts.

Gosh...  Everyone's a critic!  
Milt G.


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## Chris Parker (May 30, 2012)

Ha, cool. Thanks for the answers, Milt. Personally, I think you'll find that it's most likely a recently created (the last generation or so) form, probably from Bruce Juchnik, or a senior under him when you do the research, based on the "feel" of it.

Thanks again.


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## Milt G. (May 30, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, cool. Thanks for the answers, Milt. Personally, I think you'll find that it's most likely a recently created (the last generation or so) form, probably from Bruce Juchnik, or a senior under him when you do the research, based on the "feel" of it.
> 
> Thanks again.




I think you are probably right, Chris...
Thank you.
Milt G.


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## Xue Sheng (May 30, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Honestly, Xue, I don't think it's a silly question... I was kinda dancing around it, but my immediate response to the question "is there anyone else who has a kata like this?" was "dear god, I hope not!" I won't expand unless asked, though...



Like I said, I'm an old CMA guy so what do I know about Kosho, but thanks, at least I now know it is not only me 



Milt G. said:


> Hello.
> Just performed it the way I learned it.
> Thank you,
> Milt G.



Thanks



Milt G. said:


> Hello...
> Was not really asking for a critique of the form...
> Just asking if anyone had seen a similar Jo form in the Ken/mpo arts.
> 
> ...



Oh no, I liked the form and I did not mean to be a critic it is just I have never seen that before in a staff form. But then all my staff forms are from CMA (Taiji, Changquan, Xingyiquan) and the Changquan one broke my ankle so what do I know about kosho. Actually I know I likke what I have seen and even thought about pursuing in more than once.


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## Milt G. (May 30, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Like I said, I'm an old CMA guy so what do I know about Kosho, but thanks, at least I now know it is not only me
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hello, and thank you...
I will try to not "beat myself up" over all of the "self flagellation"...  
I enjoy Kosho-Ryu.  Seems to work well with Kenpo.  I highly recommend it.

Thanks for taking the time to watch.
Milt G.


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## Chris Parker (May 31, 2012)

Just to clarify, Milt, I have no issues with your performance, I thought that was quite well done. Direct, focused, clean.... very nice.


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## Carol (May 31, 2012)

Milt G. said:


> Hello, and thank you...
> I will try to not "beat myself up" over all of the "self flagellation"...
> I enjoy Kosho-Ryu.  Seems to work well with Kenpo.  I highly recommend it.
> 
> ...



Heehee...you have an excellent sense of humor.  you also have excellent footwork...that particularly shines in the subsequent Jo video you have.

I don't know of any Kenpo forms with the Jo.  That's not to say they don't exist...but I can't remember ever seeing one.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Milt G. (Jun 1, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Just to clarify, Milt, I have no issues with your performance, I thought that was quite well done. Direct, focused, clean.... very nice.



Thanks, Chris...
I appreciate your input. 

I also thank you for taking the time to watch the video, and to comment.  
Time is indeed the most valuable thing we have to give, and to share.

All my best to you!
Milt G.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 1, 2012)

And to you, my friend.


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## Milt G. (Jun 1, 2012)

Carol said:


> Heehee...you have an excellent sense of humor.  you also have excellent footwork...that particularly shines in the subsequent Jo video you have.
> 
> I don't know of any Kenpo forms with the Jo. That's not to say they don't exist...but I can't remember ever seeing one.
> 
> ...



Hey you...!
Nice to hear from you, again, Carol.
I trust all continues to be well with you?

I took a 10 year hiatus from Kenpo back in the 90's and studied Kosho-Ryu.
This was one of the many things I have learned, but still struggle at.  

Thank you for your input!
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Jun 1, 2012)

chris parker said:


> and to you, my friend.



:d


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## Zoran (Jun 1, 2012)

I found the form interesting but I would venture to say it could have been better designed. Your execution is very relaxed and precise so thumbs up and that part. 

Thanks for sharing Milt. As always, public videos leaves you open to critique and often the biggest critics are the ones that have no videos of their own. (Not directed at the forum members and more directed at the youtube users).


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## Milt G. (Jun 1, 2012)

Zoran said:


> I found the form interesting but I would venture to say it could have been better designed. Your execution is very relaxed and precise so thumbs up and that part.
> 
> Thanks for sharing Milt. As always, public videos leaves you open to critique and often the biggest critics are the ones that have no videos of their own. (Not directed at the forum members and more directed at the youtube users).



Thank you, Zoran...
Missed you in Vegas last year.   

Sadly (or happily) I did not design the form.  I posted only to try to find out if anyone has seen a similar one in another Kenpo, or related art.  Mostly to asertain if the background was a traditional one.  I know the kata has been around for 25 or 30 years, anyway. 
Agreed...  The biggest critics (especially the negative ones, it seems) have little or nothing to share of their own...  Other then their own opinions.

Nice to hear from you again!  
Milt G.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 1, 2012)

If that's your question, Milt, then based on the movements, there is no way that is a traditional kata. It's more realistically a series of kihon movements and others strung together. Personally, I wouldn't class it as a kata (from a Japanese martial art sense, at least). That's why I was asking if you knew it's origins. There are just far too many hallmarks to ignore that way.


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## Zoran (Jun 1, 2012)

Milt G. said:


> Thank you, Zoran...
> Missed you in Vegas last year.
> 
> Sadly (or happily) I did not design the form.  I posted only to try to find out if anyone has seen a similar one in another Kenpo, or related art.  Mostly to asertain if the background was a traditional one.  I know the kata has been around for 25 or 30 years, anyway.
> ...



Good to see you around to. I planned to go to Vegas then life decided to change things around on me. Darn that life.

Hope to make one of them again, to bad it was not Chicago, it was so convenient.


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## Milt G. (Jun 1, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> If that's your question, Milt, then based on the movements, there is no way that is a traditional kata. It's more realistically a series of kihon movements and others strung together. Personally, I wouldn't class it as a kata (from a Japanese martial art sense, at least). That's why I was asking if you knew it's origins. There are just far too many hallmarks to ignore that way.



I think you are probably right, Chris...  
Not much luck with any other theories so far. 

Thanks, again!
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Jun 1, 2012)

Zoran said:


> Good to see you around to. I planned to go to Vegas then life decided to change things around on me. Darn that life.
> 
> Hope to make one of them again, to bad it was not Chicago, it was so convenient.




Good news, Zoran...
I think the GOE will be in Chicago, again, in 2013!

I definitely understand the "Life changing things" concept.
Hopefully you weathered the storm OK?
The economy is finally starting to catch up with me.  I am hoping for positive change, soon.

Have a good one, my friend.
Milt G.


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## Zoran (Jun 2, 2012)

Milt G. said:


> Good news, Zoran...
> I think the GOE will be in Chicago, again, in 2013!



If that is the case, then I will be there and I look forward to seeing you.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2012)

Found this, I do not know if it is the same kata but it may be a place to look

http://www.koshokempo.com/maainojo.html
Ma Ai No Jo - Combative Distancing Form - Bruce Juchnik created Ma Ai No Jo to teach angling and distancing. Ma Ai No Jo utilizes the Jo Staff.


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## Milt G. (Jun 2, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Found this, I do not know if it is the same kata but it may be a place to look
> 
> http://www.koshokempo.com/maainojo.html
> Ma Ai No Jo - Combative Distancing Form - Bruce Juchnik created Ma Ai No Jo to teach angling and distancing. Ma Ai No Jo utilizes the Jo Staff.



Thank you...  I believe it is the kata I practice, Ma-Ai No Jo.
It comes from his (Juchnik's) lineage.  I am wondering if there is a root kata?
It is possible he put it together himself, with little other Jo kata influence.
An interesting guy...  Perhaps the most skilled martial artist (overall, not speciality) I have seen.

I appreciate your help very much!  
Milt G.


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## sksk (Jun 10, 2012)

The M-ai no Jo forms where developed by Juchnik sensei, to teach the concepts and principles of kosho ryu kempo 

It certainly doe's not look or perform like traditional Japanese jo forms.  When I asked him how he developed it he was heavily influenced by Chinese spear play and considers a jo a weaker weapon which requires more precise angling and body positions, then heavier weapons like the bo, etc. Take this for what it's worth.


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## Milt G. (Jun 10, 2012)

sksk said:


> The M-ai no Jo forms where developed by Juchnik sensei, to teach the concepts and principles of kosho ryu kempo
> 
> It certainly doe's not look or perform like traditional Japanese jo forms. When I asked him how he developed it he was heavily influenced by Chinese spear play and considers a jo a weaker weapon which requires more precise angling and body positions, then heavier weapons like the bo, etc. Take this for what it's worth.



Thank you, sksk...!
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Jun 11, 2012)

In thinking...?
It does seem kind of odd but logical that as I look into the orgins of the various kata traditional and otherwise, I find that they were all developed (made up?) by someone.
The important considerations seem to be "who" made them up, "when" and "why". 

Very little of the program includes "divine intervention", as many believe.  

I think that those on the "ground floor" of system (style) development had a pretty wide latitude in what to include, and why.
Those who influenced them left their mark, as well.  I think it all came down to "personal belief" in many cases.


Oh well, back to "the books"...  
Milt G.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2012)

sksk said:


> The M-ai no Jo forms where developed by Juchnik sensei, to teach the concepts and principles of kosho ryu kempo
> 
> It certainly doe's not look or perform like traditional Japanese jo forms. When I asked him how he developed it he was heavily influenced by Chinese spear play and considers a jo a weaker weapon which requires more precise angling and body positions, then heavier weapons like the bo, etc. Take this for what it's worth.



Being a CMA guy I can honestly say I don't see any Chinese spear influence and since the Chinese spear tends to be a rather long weapon I do not see much of that crossing over to Jo. However it may be influenced by a modern Wushu spear form which is for show only, I don't really pay much attention to the Modern Wushu forms


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## Flying Crane (Jun 11, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Being a CMA guy I can honestly say I don't see any Chinese spear influence and since the Chinese spear tends to be a rather long weapon I do not see much of that crossing over to Jo. However it may be influenced by a modern Wushu spear form which is for show only, I don't really pay much attention to the Modern Wushu forms



I think it looks even less like a modern wushu spear form than a traditional Chinese spear form.  I've seen plenty of both.


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## clfsean (Jun 11, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> I think it looks even less like a modern wushu spear form than a traditional Chinese spear form.  I've seen plenty of both.




Ditto that. I see about 0 spear in it to be honest. I've seen (and done) plenty of Northern & Southern spears TMA version & even learned a level 1 wushu spear routine. I've got nothing to see in there as Chinese.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2012)

sksk said:


> The M-ai no Jo forms where developed by Juchnik sensei, to teach the concepts and principles of kosho ryu kempo
> 
> It certainly doe's not look or perform like traditional Japanese jo forms.  When I asked him how he developed it he was heavily influenced by Chinese spear play and considers a jo a weaker weapon which requires more precise angling and body positions, then heavier weapons like the bo, etc. Take this for what it's worth.




Yeah, seconded (thirded? Fourthed?) along with Flying Crane et al, there's really no spear in that form at all. And as far as considering Jo a weaker weapon than a Bo, honestly that's not filling me with confidence on the design of the form itself... mainly as all it really is are some basics of Ryukyu Kobudo Bojutsu strung together and shortened for the shorter weapon, however the shortening just doesn't work. Jo really is a different weapon. And as far as needing more precise angling and body positions than a bo... well, the best I could say is that that will depend on what it's going against.

And no, it looks nothing like a Japanese jo kata.... mainly as they are almost exclusively paired forms, and look like this:





Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu





Aikido Jo

Once again, though, I think Milt's performance of the sequence was good, but I think it's a stretch to consider that actually using a Jo as a weapon. It's misusing Bo methods in a way that robs them of a lot of power, by not understanding the difference between the weapons.


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## Milt G. (Jun 12, 2012)

Hello...
I am becoming more and more confident that Bruce Juchnik developed this Jo form to teach the principles of his Kosho-Ryu Kenpo, as related to a traditional mid range weapon.
Nothing more, and nothing less.

I do enjoy performing the kata and do see many possible applications of the movement.
No...  It is not a Bo, a spear, an Escrima stick or a knife.    I believe the important points of this form are the positioning, and angles, as related to a possible opponent.

I thank everyone for their time and input here.  And for watching my interpretation of the kata.
Nice to have a place to ask questions, and to share.  
Milt G.


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## billc (Jul 25, 2013)

I was there when he created the kata.  It is interesting to see that it is still being used.


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