# Where do you teach/learn?



## yak sao (Mar 31, 2011)

How many here go to an actual "school" to train/teach WC as opposed to teaching/learning from someone's house , a park or a gym?
I teach from my home, and I'm sure I get a lot of turn downs because "I'm not legit"
Sometimes it gets to me, other times I consider it a weeding out process.
Anyone else deal with this?


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 31, 2011)

yak sao said:


> . . . . I teach from my home, and I'm sure I get a lot of turn downs because "I'm not legit"


 
What? Brother, you need to stop thinking like that.  A building is a building, it doesn't matter where you teach from.  If you trained with a legitimate teacher and was given the authority to teach, then you are legit.  Just because you have a nice, big, building in some posh location, like near the mall, or corner supermarket, doesn't mean you're legit.  Or know what your doing and teaching.  Some of the best gung fu comes from the backyard groups or park training.  It's not the building that makes your gung fu good, it's the teacher.

A big, public space means you have to hussle and work harder to get enough students to pay the rent.  Nothing wrong with that, but a small place (like your home or garage) can do just as well, or better.  If act professional, and know what your doing, it doesn't matter where you teach from.  Never be ashamed of being small as long as you are good and know what you are doing.


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 31, 2011)

yak sao said:


> Anyone else deal with this?


 
Yes.


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## yak sao (Mar 31, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> What? Brother, you need to stop thinking like that. A building is a building, it doesn't matter where you teach from. If you trained with a legitimate teacher and was given the authority to teach, then you are legit. Just because you have a nice, big, building in some posh location, like near the mall, or corner supermarket, doesn't mean you're legit. Or know what your doing and teaching. Some of the best gung fu comes from the backyard groups or park training. It's not the building that makes your gung fu good, it's the teacher.
> 
> A big, public space means you have to hussle and work harder to get enough students to pay the rent. Nothing wrong with that, but a small place (like your home or garage) can do just as well, or better. If act professional, and know what your doing, it doesn't matter where you teach from. Never be ashamed of being small as long as you are good and know what you are doing.


 
I'm totally with you....I know that I am teaching good solid MA. How do you get past the stigma. Or, like I said before, is it a form of weeding out the serious from those that just want to "play karate"?


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## jks9199 (Mar 31, 2011)

yak sao said:


> I'm totally with you....I know that I am teaching good solid MA. How do you get past the stigma. Or, like I said before, is it a form of weeding out the serious from those that just want to "play karate"?


You don't. 

The people who care about whether you teach out of a dedicated school or fight club or whatever they call it aren't the ones that'll want to be your students anyway.  They're the ones into the external trapping or who won't practice unless they're in the proper place.


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## Svemocn1vidar (Mar 31, 2011)

My Sifu was once a student of Emin Boztepe. He was leading instructor of EBMAS in Serbia,however,due to state in which Serbia is financialy and high prices of EBMAS in general,he was forced to leave the organisation.
Some people belive various instructors do this to earn money for themselves or whatnot,this is not the case when my Sifu is concerned. Our fee is 15 euros a month,sometimes 20 during winter,not a single coin more. As we are still working by ourselves,there are no limitions when knowledge is concerned.
I never - ever "passed a test" for certain level for example. I am 6 months in Ting's lineage,my knowledge and skill have vastly improved ( In my Sifu's opinion i'm around level 5,6 student,at least that's how IWTA labels you,in levels ),but this is because i did another kind of Wing Chun before and am physicaly in good shape.

Perhaps,some day,i would like to have a "diploma" or certificate of some kind but my main goal is to just do Wing Chun.

We train in a gym which has about 3 x 5 meters or outside,in nature,when weather allows it.


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 31, 2011)

yak sao said:


> I'm totally with you....I know that I am teaching good solid MA. How do you get past the stigma. Or, like I said before, is it a form of weeding out the serious from those that just want to "play karate"?


 
What you have to do is think like a big school, not a small backyard operation.  You act as professional as the big guys, give quality, top notch instruction, and don't have the attitude or act like a backyard, redneck operator.  The size and where you teach doesn't matter.

Big or small, you're always going to get people who want to 'play karate'.  The people who play karate are the ones who pay to keep the school open so the truely dedicated students can continue to train.  As a small school, you may have 20 students (or less), but only 5 really dedicated students who really train seriously.  So you accept everyone and the serious ones will stay.  The not so serious one will eventually leave.  But you have to be ready to accept a bit of turnover in the number of students you have.  That is the nature of the martial arts beast.  Treat all your students the same because in the end, they pay the bills and allow you to do what you like to do, which is teach, train, and advance your art.  Even the play karate types may stay longer or become serious about the art.  You go through 100 people to find that one student who actually wants it and gets it.  Plus you never know, you might find that next Bruce Lee.


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## Danny T (Apr 1, 2011)

yak sao said:


> How many here go to an actual "school" to train/teach WC as opposed to teaching/learning from someone's house , a park or a gym?
> I teach from my home, and I'm sure I get a lot of turn downs because "I'm not legit"
> Sometimes it gets to me, other times I consider it a weeding out process.
> Anyone else deal with this?



Sir,
Over the years I have taught at my house (back porch & yard), City Park, a Dance Studio, a warehouse in an industrial area, and finally in my own school. I have never ever considered myself "not legit".  One must always provide excellent high level instruction and training with high quality equipment. Always be professional in attitude and in dealing with those training you. As ZepedaWC stated treat all the same. 



			
				Zepedawingchun said:
			
		

> Big or small, you're always going to get people who want to 'play karate'. The people who play karate are the ones who pay to keep the school open so the truely dedicated students can continue to train.


Al you are so correct. I often say "97% of those in the martial arts are there so the rest of us can train". I provide the same level of instruction to them as even the most dedicated.


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## cwk (Apr 1, 2011)

I teach at the local Chin Woo school which is uses a large Hakka association building as premises and it's a very nice place to train and teach.
I also teach a small private group of 3 students on the roof of my friends restaurant.
At the moment I'm looking for premises to start my own school but the locals keep trying to rip me off rent wise, so I'm putting it on the back burner for now. I even had one guy tell me that the more students I got, the more the rent for the hall would be! Literally student by student basis!  I just laughed and said no thanks.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 1, 2011)

I went to a school... now allow me qualify that. 

It is a small room across the hall from the Sifu&#8217;s business (day job) with a mook jong on the wall that is listed as a school in the phone book. And to be honest, when I return to his school it would not matter to me if I found he was now teaching in the parking lot, his garage or his backyard.. I would still go train with him.

The location or place does not matter&#8230; the sifu does


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## yak sao (Apr 1, 2011)

Please allow me to clarify....my "not legit" comment was not me describing myself. I used that phrase to describe the feedback I 've gotten over the years. You know, the "_oh, you don't have a real school???"_ kind of thing.
I started teaching in 1986...and like so many of you, I have taught in school gyms, church basements, apartment rec rooms, parks, kitchens, garages and backyards. I had a commercial school for 6 years but have been teaching out of my garage for the past 5 years. And quite honestly I've been fine with that. I like having a small group. I have not advertised, I've gone by word of mouth only. 
But, financially, there have been some changes in my life the past few weeks and now I need to pick up $ where  I can. So I started putting the word out a little, trying to get a few more students.
I appreciate everyone's feedback.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 1, 2011)

I wish you luck, I hope it all works out and advertising is key if you want to make any extra money 


Now....take this for what it is worth since my own jaded opinion of people it is based on over 30 years in MA and close to 20 in CMA. You should also know my wife (TCM OMD from China) has told me on more than one occasion that I would never make any money teaching CMA in the USA because I am to serious.

The problem, as I see it, with putting Money and legitimate in the same statement as it applies to a Wing Chun school or any MA school for that matter, is this.

People do not want to get hurt, practice hard, or take time. They want to be dangerous (or at least told/believe they are) as fast as possible with as little effort as possible.

Wing Chun training is hard, painful and takes time, maybe not as much as other MA styles I have trained but you still need to take the time and train. 

This is why my Wing Chun sifu has said that if it were not for his business he could not afford to have his Wing Chun School because it does not produce enough money to pay the rent. This is also why my first sifu makes millions and has a big fancy school. One teaches the real deal (Wing Chun) and expects his students to train, the other teaches fake garbage (fake CMA) and tells his students how good they are and gives them a plethora of worthless certificates to prove it. This is why my Wing Chun sifu teaches classes of 1 to 8 people and my first sifu has classes of 10 to 30.


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 1, 2011)

yak sao said:


> Please allow me to clarify....my "not legit" comment was not me describing myself. I used that phrase to describe the feedback I 've gotten over the years. You know, the "_oh, you don't have a real school???"_ kind of thing.
> I started teaching in 1986...and like so many of you, I have taught in school gyms, church basements, apartment rec rooms, parks, kitchens, garages and backyards. I had a commercial school for 6 years but have been teaching out of my garage for the past 5 years. And quite honestly I've been fine with that. I like having a small group. I have not advertised, I've gone by word of mouth only.
> But, financially, there have been some changes in my life the past few weeks and now I need to pick up $ where I can. So I started putting the word out a little, trying to get a few more students.
> I appreciate everyone's feedback.


 
What you have to do is decide how big or how small you want to be.  Then make up your mind to do it.  If you want to be a big school, meaning a school large enough to make a living at it full time, you have to advertise, let everyone know by word of mouth, and of course, find a good location.  If you're only teaching to adults, it's going to be much harder.  You have to offer an after school kids programs, adults, maybe an exercise program, and something for senior citizens, the stay at home moms, the lunch break fitness groups, anything you can think of.  

As for location, you have to be near the schools or at the corner of a nearby housing development, like the corner grocery store, where you can be seen.  And that's the problem with back yard, garage set ups, no one knows you're there, you can't be seen and if they don't see you, they don't know you're there.  If you live in a housing development, maybe you need to put a sign out so everyone can see you're there doing something.  And if you already have one (a small one) make it a bit bigger so it's hard to miss it.  And make sure it says something like Kids and Adults.  Cause if you do kids, the adults will follow.


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## balancedZen (Apr 1, 2011)

I would rather learn from someone's basement than a studio, school, formal place. 

I've trained WC in a basement but i'm currently training in a school. 

So far my current teacher is really good, good guy, and good sense of character. So i dont really mind the high prices. But i've been to some schools where, after a while, they just wanted to money. 

That being said, i've been to a few basements, and they are teaching NOT beacuse of the money. In fact, most basement WC' families teach because they wanted to - this i think is the best way to learn, learn from someone who is willing to spread the word and not in it for the $$. But this way is if you had to be invited to be in it. Weeds out a lot of people. 

So i would rather learn from a "basement" place, than a kwoon place. Though, i can't complain the current place (even though $$) has a good sifu, who has a good sense of character.


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## Eric_H (Apr 1, 2011)

Unfortunately it's rough to be a Sifu who teaches for a living - you can't do it without making it a business. This seems to turn some people off, but at the end of the day - if Sifu can't eat he isn't going to be much invested in being able to teach. That's just the reality of the situation. 

<rant>
Sometimes I get pissed off at people digging on commercial schools - I'm no fan of belt factories or ripping people off - but I don't see a damn thing wrong with someone get paid reasonably for a valuable service like a kung fu coach. I've seen people ***** about fees as low as $60/month being too much. This stupid idea that martial arts should be free is garbage - hell, even Mr. Miyagi got his house painted, and floor sanded out of the deal.

If someone doesn't value what you do enough to pay you - tell them to hit the bricks. Everyone thats tried to cheap me out in the beginning has *without fail* been a bad student who i had to chase down for payments, etc, even when i would cut them a deal. Value yourself and what you know highly, believe in the quality of what you teach, and then give that to others.
</rant>

I've been at fancy gyms, people's houses, the park, you name it. The best instruction I ever got was at a small thai boxing school in a dying strip mall and in the Garage of my current Sifu.

Yak Sao - I've worked out a couple of free ways to generate leads in the last year, I'm sure the other teachers here have too. Maybe we could have a thread about what works/doesn't and help each other out.


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## yak sao (Apr 1, 2011)

Eric_H said:


> Unfortunately it's rough to be a Sifu who teaches for a living - you can't do it without making it a business. This seems to turn some people off, but at the end of the day - if Sifu can't eat he isn't going to be much invested in being able to teach. That's just the reality of the situation.
> 
> <rant>
> Sometimes I get pissed off at people digging on commercial schools - I'm no fan of belt factories or ripping people off - but I don't see a damn thing wrong with someone get paid reasonably for a valuable service like a kung fu coach. I've seen people ***** about fees as low as $60/month being too much. This stupid idea that martial arts should be free is garbage - hell, even Mr. Miyagi got his house painted, and floor sanded out of the deal.
> ...




I would be very interested in what you have to say about this


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## wtxs (Apr 4, 2011)

yak sao said:


> Please allow me to clarify....my "not legit" comment was not me describing myself. I used that phrase to describe the feedback I 've gotten over the years. You know, the "_oh, you don't have a real school???"_ kind of thing.
> I started teaching in 1986...and like so many of you, I have taught in school gyms, church basements, apartment rec rooms, parks, kitchens, garages and backyards. I had a commercial school for 6 years but have been teaching out of my garage for the past 5 years. And quite honestly I've been fine with that. I like having a small group. I have not advertised, I've gone by word of mouth only.
> But, financially, there have been some changes in my life the past few weeks and now I need to pick up $ where  I can. So I started putting the word out a little, trying to get a few more students.
> I appreciate everyone's feedback.



I'm sure you had seen Gary Lam's videos ... most of the training settings are in his back yard, I would say he's not worrying too much about what others think., so forrrget about it ....


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 5, 2011)

Eric_H said:


> Unfortunately it's rough to be a Sifu who teaches for a living - you can't do it without making it a business. This seems to turn some people off, but at the end of the day - if Sifu can't eat he isn't going to be much invested in being able to teach. That's just the reality of the situation.
> 
> <rant>
> Sometimes I get pissed off at people digging on commercial schools - I'm no fan of belt factories or ripping people off - but I don't see a damn thing wrong with someone get paid reasonably for a valuable service like a kung fu coach. I've seen people ***** about fees as low as $60/month being too much. This stupid idea that martial arts should be free is garbage - hell, even Mr. Miyagi got his house painted, and floor sanded out of the deal.
> ...


 
I agree with you 100 percent.  There's nothing wrong with teaching martial arts for a living and getting paid for it.  I'm not saying you have to become a millionaire doing it, but at least make a decent living, food on the table, and warm and safe house to live in, just like any other profession.  By charging a fee does not mean you're prostitiuting yourself (which is the most common response from starving artists), you pay for everything in life anyway.  And if you don't pay for it, then it's not worth anything to you.  You pay for it and it becomes something of value to you, and everyone else.


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## WC_lun (Apr 5, 2011)

There are always gonna be those that judge your worth as a teacher on the size and location of your school. Those people are ignorant of what it takes to run a martial arts studio of any type.  I understand it is frustrating to lose perspective students because of this kind of thinking.  However, if you want to know if your teaching is lacking in an area, talk to our students, particularly ex-students.  Make them feel at ease and ask for honest feedback.  Those are the guys who have opinions that are both experienced and that matter.


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## ilhe4e12345 (Apr 19, 2011)

ahhh this is such a common thing in my area and i dont understand why....let me explain what happened a few months ago. I have been trainging for going on 3 years now (7 Star Praying Mantis) and am looking into WC currently (Principles First, as i am dedicated to taking Mantis full time). Anyways the only teacher in my area (NEPA) that teachs 7 Star Praying Mantis is my Sifu, and his school was closed about a year ago (Due to the building he was renting had to kick everyone out becuas the owner of the building got into a lot of trouble with taxes and such and lost the building). My Sifu is currently teaching out of his basement which is a full furnished trainign facility. He has the wooden dummys (3 of them), wall mirrors, punching bags (heavy), floor padding and great lighting. He is dedicated to CMA and did this for himself, but trains students out of his home during the winter months. In the summer, we go to a local park and train there. 

At first ill be honest i wasnt to sure about training out of someones home...but when i met him at the park and we talked and i started training with him (my first year of martial arts i trained in Pai Lum and i didnt much like it) and its not the facility, its the teacher 100 percent.....i would much rather train with a great teacher that makes me LOVE martial arts and love the lineage and the style and the teaching then train in a fancy place at some mall location or sports complex. A guy i work with has been taking TKD for close to 6 years i think and i when i told him about where my teacher teaches from he laughed in my face. I invited him out to meet my teacher and spar with me....and i destroyed him. NOW im not bragging....please i dont like that, but afterwards he said "wow you beat me i cant believe it, and you train out of a basement!" all i said was "its not the place, its the lesson..."


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## qwksilver61 (Apr 28, 2011)

Funny.....in old China you could be so lucky...alley....Junk... a small room,a roof top where you could not be detected....no A.C. let alone find an adept trainer......Hmmmm?


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## altbus1 (Apr 29, 2011)

I've started training at my friend's place for 2 years. (Just occasionall)
Now I'm training in an old church. I don't care where I'm training I'm just glad that I was able to find a school where I can train.


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## yak sao (Apr 29, 2011)

A krav maga instructor contacted me recently who teaches out of a local health club. He wants me ro come there to teach WT. He's also in the process of getting an FMA instructor there, and possibly a BJJ guy, and forming an association of sorts. He's saying I wouild get 40% of anyone they recruit and 60% of anyone I recruit., but the gym would cover insurance, advertising, and allow us to place a sign.
If I had a school I would be happy with a 40% profit to be sure. One thing that is a sticking point for me is I have to sign a contract that says I can't teach any of the association's members if I decide to leave....

Is this something to consider, or am I better of staying here at my house and teaching in my own little world?
what to do????advice from the wise please


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## altbus1 (Apr 29, 2011)

What if you would have to leave that school and your students want to go with you, are you going to say sorry no can do? Don't forget the people that allready train with you what should happen with them?
It would be a sheap sollution for the moment but you don't know if it's going to work out after a few years. Even so maybe they will raise the prices for renting the training center. Or even worse they could chanche the houres that you are allowed to train and so on.

Greetz


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## mograph (Apr 29, 2011)

ilhe4e12345 said:


> ... he said "wow you beat me i cant believe it, and you train out of a basement!"


 This is what I like about a lot of CMA. No uniforms or fancy studio, but great training in a basement or church. 

I hope your friend is able to look beneath the surface.


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## geezer (Apr 29, 2011)

yak sao said:


> One thing that is a sticking point for me is I have to sign a contract that says I can't teach any of the association's members if I decide to leave....
> 
> Is this something to consider, or am I better of staying here at my house and teaching in my own little world?
> what to do????advice from the wise please


 
It sounds like an interesting proposition. You might want to negotiate a better "escape clause", like agreeing not to teach their association members (if you leave) for a certain reasonable period of time... say 3 months? Or agree to pay them a one-time fee for each member who follows you... but you can't be expected to abandon your students if the gig doesn't work out, especially if they are guys who are your long-time students. Anyway, let us know how it all turns out.


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## jks9199 (Apr 29, 2011)

geezer said:


> It sounds like an interesting proposition. You might want to negotiate a better "escape clause", like agreeing not to teach their association members (if you leave) for a certain reasonable period of time... say 3 months? Or agree to pay them a one-time fee for each member who follows you... but you can't be expected to abandon your students if the gig doesn't work out, especially if they are guys who are your long-time students. Anyway, let us know how it all turns out.


I like this idea.  Maybe ask instead for it to be not teach "current association members" or something like that if you leave.  It's basically a no-compete clause, and you don't want to be hamstrung by it if you decide the deal isn't for you.


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## yak sao (Apr 29, 2011)

geezer said:


> It sounds like an interesting proposition. You might want to negotiate a better "escape clause", *like agreeing not to teach their association members (if you leave) for a certain reasonable period of time... say 3 months? Or agree to pay them a one-time fee for each member who follows you..*. but you can't be expected to abandon your students if the gig doesn't work out, especially if they are guys who are your long-time students. Anyway, let us know how it all turns out.


 

I've thought of that as well.  I haven't hammered it all out yet, but by the sound of it, if I recruit them, then all is well because I would have been the one who brought them in the door. 

It makes sense for them, as it keeps me from going in there and building up a student base on their advertising nickle and then opening up a competing school across the street, yet there needs to be some sort of happy medium.


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## mograph (Apr 30, 2011)

Do you think you could build up a following without any of the students from your current club? 

If yes, then the non-compete agreement would be no sweat.

If no, then you might want to consider whether you're really that different from your old club, and whether you're able to market your teaching on its own merits to the population at large. Maybe spending some time apart from the club to make your style your own, separate from the old club might be the thing to do. 

I suspect the truth might be in-between?

Anyway, how about a year for the moratorium on teaching existing members? If I were the old club, I wouldn't accept less than a year. I hear three years is the norm in the corporate world ...? 
I wouldn't go for the one-time fee thing -- too hard to administer, and you wouldn't want to be in business (after a fashion) with the old club if things turn sour. 

But if a year is too long and you were in a hurry, I'd have to ask .... why?


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 30, 2011)

yak sao said:


> . . . . . One thing that is a sticking point for me is I have to sign a contract that says I can't teach any of the association's members if I decide to leave....


 
What happens if you leave, and don't tell any of the health clubs members and they find you on their own and want to continue training with you? It's not your fault they found you and you should have to *not train* them just because you were with the health club. So because you trained them at the club, you can't accept them as student outside the club, when you're not affiliated?  I think you're not responsible and shouldn't be allowed to not have them as students. Get my drift?


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## yak sao (Apr 30, 2011)

I had a meeting with the health club guy today and i addressed my concern about abadoning students should I leave.
 I know since it's a health club, I'm going to get a fair share of people there simply to cross train. Then there are going to be the ones there to learn WT. Those are the ones I am concerned about. He is willing to work something out as a concession, so I am going to make a go of it..................


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## cwk (May 2, 2011)

Hope it goes well mate.


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