# Stealth Self-Defense



## Dark (Jun 16, 2006)

What do you guys think of concept of applied escape and evasion training for self-defense? Is running and hiding the best defense...


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## Knarfan (Jun 16, 2006)

Not a bad 1st choice if you can pull it off. Obviously, you should have a back up plan. Me personally running wouldn't always be my 1st choice- it really depends on the situation? I am not a real fast runner & I really put alot of time into learning good back up plans  .


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## frank raud (Jun 16, 2006)

Escape and evasion rank up there with awareness as preservation tools that are woefully ignored in most martial arts.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 16, 2006)

Damn right they are on the top of any list I would ever make up.

If you can get away and survive do so


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## Dark (Jun 16, 2006)

Then why do you think those subjects are never covered in most MA or SD classes. SD wise it would top priorety, IMHO. I sat either (a) ego the winning the fight mentality or (b) lack of knowledge...


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## BlackCatBonz (Jun 16, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> What do you guys think of concept of applied escape and evasion training for self-defense? Is running and hiding the best defense...


 
That's pretty much the basis for Kosho Ryu students.
check out http://www.skski.net/


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## Knarfan (Jun 16, 2006)

I'v have personaly been in situations where I wanted to run but, it may not have been my best 1st choice (because I was either trapped or surprised). So when I say it is not always my 1st choice I base this on the situation. That being said even if you have to fight at first you should always flee when the opportunity presents itself. I wonder if MA ignore alot of evasion training because they don't feel confident teaching it? Maybe it is put on the back burner because they think that it is just common sense to try & escape & I think that most MA would advise you to escape even though they may ignore the nessesary training. I think that most of the battle is knowing how to put yourself in a good position to run? This of course has everything to do with awareness & prevention training.


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## Rook (Jun 16, 2006)

If you see an attack coming from far enough away that you have an opportunity to conceal yourself, you probably don't need to hide.


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## Dark (Jun 16, 2006)

Not  really rook, under the right conditions you can idstract someone and run away. All ninja turtle like, or you can choke them out from behind, but that bars legal issues.


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## Kacey (Jun 17, 2006)

I generally teach this set of rules:

Rule 1:  Don't get into a situation where you need to defend yourself
Rule 2:  If you do need to defend yourself, run like crazy
Rule 3:  If you can't run, do whatever you need to do so you can run; then see rule 2.


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## frank raud (Jun 17, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> Then why do you think those subjects are never covered in most MA or SD classes. SD wise it would top priorety, IMHO. I sat either (a) ego the winning the fight mentality or (b) lack of knowledge...


 
Most MA is taught from a physical context. Most SD techniques are taught from the position of having been grabbed, pushed,etc. There is some lip service given to running away, but that is not what most people want to hear, or pay for as SD advice. "I already know that! We learned that in kindergarten!" Avoidance is key, but it is way cooler to learn how to do an crescent kick/side kick combination as a counter to a knife defense than to run. But you stand a better chance of living if you run.


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## Knarfan (Jun 17, 2006)

I think that when somone pays for MA or SD training they expect that they are going to learn how to fight. I think that the MA or SD instructor  feels an obligation to teach them & make them better able to fight & defend themselves. It's easy to critisize them for not teaching enough evasion but, most of the people want to learn how to fight. I think over critisizing MA instructors for not teaching evasion is a little unfair.


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## Dark (Jun 17, 2006)

But legally speaking if you stay there and don't try to run you are liable for assault as well. Legally speaking if you try to run away and end up getting into a fight and crush the guys throat, it stands better as self-defense...


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## still learning (Jun 17, 2006)

Hello, This is the first step in martial arts....leave,run,escape.  All your self-defense should be design to allow you to escape and run.

SELF-Defense: means protecting one self...and NOT being there is the most effective means to survival.  

Does this make sense? ...sometimes...you must stay and end the sitution, especially with love ones around or can't run away/escape. NO rules here..just common sense and instincts for survival.

Always just your INSTINCTS and use common sense.....life will be longer this way.......Aloha


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## Knarfan (Jun 17, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> But legally speaking if you stay there and don't try to run you are liable for assault as well. Legally speaking if you try to run away and end up getting into a fight and crush the guys throat, it stands better as self-defense...


 
True, I totally agree. Unfortunatly the SD laws don't always help the victim. I am not ready to judge a MA instuctor on weather he gives me a detailed lesson on running. If I am taking a TKD class or learning SD & I get a little lip service about running it really wouldn't bother me, there are plenty of people who can teach you good evasion tactics. I don't think it is the reponsibility of every MA instuctor. They should offer you good advice but, if they spend most of the lesson teaching how to fight, I don't think it means they are blatantly ignoring evasion.


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## Bigshadow (Jun 17, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> What do you guys think of concept of applied escape and evasion training for self-defense?


Dude, people do it everyday! Avoiding the area because they suspect it is dangerous, that person looks shifty so let's go this way, that area is dimly lit, so we will take this route where there is more light and people. IMHO, that is the higher level of escape and evasion. Waiting until you are confronted is not the best time to try and apply escape and evade.



			
				Dark said:
			
		

> Is running and hiding the best defense...


The best defense is what is appropriate at that time.  There is no one best defense.


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## Dark (Jun 17, 2006)

Knarfan said:
			
		

> I am not ready to judge a MA instuctor on weather he gives me a detailed lesson on running.


 
I'm just trying to see how other use this in there arts, not judging I appolgise if it seems that way...


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 18, 2006)

You might consider looking at it the way people who make their living protecting others do it. I myself am not a formally trained bodyguard but have known people who are, and they like to go far enough as to plan their clients route in advance; This is Safe point A, where we are noow( for you this could be your home/hotel room/what have you), this is Safe point B( destination), here is the route of least resistance/hardest route to bushwack us on the way to getting there, and so on.

Could be of use.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 18, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> But legally speaking if you stay there and don't try to run you are liable for assault as well. Legally speaking if you try to run away and end up getting into a fight and crush the guys throat, it stands better as self-defense...



Dark,

Are you a lawyer?

Do you practice in all states and in all countries?

Some states have the retreat law in place, others do not. 

From a perception point of view it is better to look like you wanted to get away and to have a witness or two say so is good. But the way I presented the comment and you did are different. You make it sound like an absolute. 

I tired to run away before and was chased. The police laughed at me and still hand cuffed me and took me in for questioning. Never arrested as when the sergeants or detectives got involved and started actually answering questions.

In another case I was a witness, but there was still a time when the police stopped by my Apartment to pick me up for further questioning based upon what the defendants of the case were saying. NOTE: the defendants were the onse chasing people around with an axe handling and had already put one guy in the hospital that night. 

I am not arguing your point, but how you present it. You could be opening yourself up for problems by making such statements.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 18, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> Then why do you think those subjects are never covered in most MA or SD classes. SD wise it would top priorety, IMHO. I sat either (a) ego the winning the fight mentality or (b) lack of knowledge...




This is part of our requirements for White belt the first rank. ** Yes our students have to test for their first belt. **

At any other test, we can request a review of any technique learned for a previous belt. This keeps the students from just concentrating on the existing belt techniques. No disrespect meant to other methods, just stating what we use and have found to be effect for us. So, at any time we can say what is your self defense here? And you want to know something, it takes about one belt test where they are facing me with a wide open floor, and they stand there or charge me and I work them over nicely for their level of knowledge. So they learn it is not the best to bull dog into me and others as well. For you never know. So yes they will use distance and try to keep away from the person. After this has been seen and some are satisfied with this, then we can limit the area or change the scene to fit the optin of not being able to run right away. But if they get the option and do not take it, they are marked down. 

Now for pure demonstration of techniques obviously they demo and execute the techniques. In sparring where they are to demonstrate their sparring skills they do. 

Just my comments on this.


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## Dark (Jun 18, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Dark,
> 
> Are you a lawyer?


 
Nope, but mom was a paralegal and I've had a few run in with the law for "self-defense" related issues... 





			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> From a perception point of view it is better to look like you wanted to get away and to have a witness or two say so is good. But the way I presented the comment and you did are different. You make it sound like an absolute.


 
Based on police SOP and evidence aquisition it kind of is an absolute. I work with allot of cops from 3 states.



			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> In another case I was a witness, but there was still a time when the police stopped by my Apartment to pick me up for further questioning based upon what the defendants of the case were saying. NOTE: the defendants were the onse chasing people around with an axe handling and had already put one guy in the hospital that night.


 
You know you could have told them to "bugger off" and shut the door. Without a warrant they couldnt do anything.



			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I am not arguing your point, but how you present it. You could be opening yourself up for problems by making such statements.


 
True enough...


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## Knarfan (Jun 18, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> I'm just trying to see how other use this in there arts, not judging I appolgise if it seems that way...


 
No need to apologize. I wasn't talking about you or anyone else on the thread. You asked a great question. I was just giving my point of view more because you asked if it was the best self defense. I think that I am more in the middle of the road as far as how I would judge an instructor & the fact that this type of training is ignored by alot of MA/styles. Also somone said people wouldn't mind if there was a lack of evasion training at a SD seminar & I was giving my view-agreeing with the posters point. I think that it was a good point, most people probably don't care? I do agree though, people need to know that running is the best option. I just don't expect every style to teach it, especially if they don't have their heart into it, or the knowledge.


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## Dark (Jun 18, 2006)

I train in ninjutsu, which applies a great deal of stealth, distraction, misdirection and evasion. I did a small seminar with a friend of mine, each one us have to choose a different subject. I picked mobility and distraction, John chose basic functional stuff and the other Dave focused on wing chin blocking techniques.

Allot of wing chun relies on the some principles I was teaching, they just go about them with a different over all focus. I was curious as to how someone else applies the concepts.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 18, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> Nope, but mom was a paralegal and I've had a few run in with the law for "self-defense" related issues...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I know my rights.

I also was not home, my roommates answered the door and then delivered the message to me later.


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