# Written Material for research



## Dean X (Jan 26, 2013)

Hi everyone,

I am undergoing an instructor course in ninjutsu, and we have to write a paper about a technique or kata of our choosing, including a brief history and background, discription of movement in the kata, emphasis' for performing and teaching the kata, and finally a lesson plan for teaching it to a group.

I chose Hicho No Kata form the Kihon Happo.

I have some resources such as the unarmed fighting techniques book by hatsumi and the tenchijin ryaku no maki by paul richardson, but they have very little to no background about the school, kihon happo and kata.

I would really appreciate it if you could link me up with quality online materials (although i can try and get my hands on some books from my teacher, but it'd be harder) on the following subjects:

1. Gyokko-Ryu Kosshi Jutsu
2. Kihon Happo
3. Hicho No Kamae
4. Hicho No Kata

anything from history to meaning of names to pictures or video explanations would help...

oh, and thanks in advance


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2013)

What did we do before computers eh?


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2013)

What did we do before computers eh?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 26, 2013)

We went to the library. Twice, apparently. :rofl:


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## Chris Parker (Jan 27, 2013)

Dean X said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I am undergoing an instructor course in ninjutsu, and we have to write a paper about a technique or kata of our choosing, including a brief history and background, discription of movement in the kata, emphasis' for performing and teaching the kata, and finally a lesson plan for teaching it to a group.
> 
> ...



Hi Dean,

Firstly, welcome to the forum. While I'm going to try to be as welcoming as possible, this might not be what you're hoping to hear. Essentially, the information you're asking for should be coming from your instructor. There really aren't any online sources for what you're describing (for very good reasons), and honestly, if you had to search outside for them, and such information isn't part of your education, then I'd be concerned about why you're being asked to provide it in whatever this "instructors course" is (the only one I know of is RVD's correspondence-style DVD course... hmm). A quick check of your profile says that you're a member of the Bujinkan (for the last 9 years), holding a rank of "Ichi Dan"? For your education, there's no such rank. There is Ikkyu (Ichi Kyu), which is "first Kyu", the last rank before Dan grade, then Shodan, meaning "initial Dan/level". Which did you mean?

But bluntly, after 9 years, you really should already have some idea of everything you're asking about. And your instructor (assuming we aren't talking about a DVD course, but a real, live instructor here) should be able to add to it for you. But I have to say, I'm not really that keen on the idea of any "instructors course"... especially in the Bujinkan, where, other than RVD's mentioned one, there is no such thing. There is only one pre-requisite to being an instructor (Shidoshi), which is being a Godan or higher. And being a junior instructor (Shidoshi-ho), all you need is to be under the direction and authority of an authorised Shidoshi. There is no course that means anything, really, as it carries no weight in the Bujinkan whatsoever.


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2013)

Chris, if there were online sources would you have posted them up or would you feel as I do that is an easy way to do something that surely should be a bit harder than just asking for information? I just feel that, not just with martial arts, that if you are going to do something that will have a meaning you should do the research yourself rather than just ask people and then copy. Perhaps it's me being old fashioned sigh.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 27, 2013)

Hmm. I think it's been established that I'm pretty open when it comes to giving information... for a range of reasons that I haven't gone into. But in this case, we have someone saying they're in the process of learning to be an instructor... but doesn't have the resources, or abilities to get such basic answers about one of the very first things learnt in the Bujinkan (Hicho no Kata is the second of the three fundamental striking forms taught to beginners, and form part of the absolute basics of the art). And, as a result, it doesn't bode well (to my mind) to have instructors who still have such questions. Above and beyond, these things are learnt by experience... I mean, I could explain what Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu is about, what the essential aspects are, what it's ideas and principles are, but unless you've got experience in it, it won't mean anything, as you'll misunderstand what I'm saying. So no, I probably wouldn't link anything in this instance... not until I got a lot more information about the poster and what his situation is.


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## jks9199 (Jan 27, 2013)

I can't address the rank terminology, validity of an instructor program, etc. but the assignment here seems a lot like a typical instructor program, where students learning to teach are assigned to create a lesson plan, that might cover some history/background material, as well as a plan for teaching it.  My guess is that it's not so much a research assignment as a "think it through, and develop a plan" assignment.  He probably doesn't need much more than what he's been given for that assignment. 

It might even be a valid phase in someone's shodan prep...  I generally have brown or even green belts teach a new student, under my supervision, so that they learn how to teach.  If I had several students preparing at once, I might do a brief "instructor class" for them as part of the larger program.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 28, 2013)

I'm fine with learning to teach in a structured way (kinda anti-Bujinkan, though...), and such things being done in this fashion, but the questions themselves are ones that an instructor should be able to help guide with. If this is learning to teach, then it's Dean's instructors responsibility to guide him in these things. That said, I'm waiting to hear back from Dean here in regard to my answer before going any further....


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## Bigwill (Jan 28, 2013)

From my reading, Dean isn't asking anyone to 'do the work for him'. He's asking about good sources. If folks have suggestions of books to read or videos to watch or websites to visit, he's open to them. 

I'm not a long-standing member here, and have only been training for about a year. So I won't speak to the 'contextual' offense of Dean's question. But, from an objective one, it doesn't seem out of line to me. (Maybe it will seem out of line in eight years?)


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## Dean X (Jan 28, 2013)

allow me to explain:



Chris Parker said:


> Hi Dean,
> 
> Firstly, welcome to the forum. While I'm going to try to be as welcoming as possible, this might not be what you're hoping to hear. Essentially, the information you're asking for should be coming from your instructor. There really aren't any online sources for what you're describing (for very good reasons), and honestly, if you had to search outside for them, and such information isn't part of your education, then I'd be concerned about why you're being asked to provide it in whatever this "instructors course" is (the only one I know of is RVD's correspondence-style DVD course... hmm). A quick check of your profile says that you're a member of the Bujinkan (for the last 9 years), holding a rank of "Ichi Dan"? For your education, there's no such rank. There is Ikkyu (Ichi Kyu), which is "first Kyu", the last rank before Dan grade, then Shodan, meaning "initial Dan/level". Which did you mean?
> 
> But bluntly, after 9 years, you really should already have some idea of everything you're asking about. And your instructor (assuming we aren't talking about a DVD course, but a real, live instructor here) should be able to add to it for you. But I have to say, I'm not really that keen on the idea of any "instructors course"... especially in the Bujinkan, where, other than RVD's mentioned one, there is no such thing. There is only one pre-requisite to being an instructor (Shidoshi), which is being a Godan or higher. And being a junior instructor (Shidoshi-ho), all you need is to be under the direction and authority of an authorised Shidoshi. There is no course that means anything, really, as it carries no weight in the Bujinkan whatsoever.



I meant shodan. I live and study bujinkan in Israel (from real life instructors LOL), so forgive me if I'm not so familiar with all the japanese ranks and such, here in israel we pay more importance to studying and the knowledge itself than the formalities. 
Regarding the instructor course: as you might be aware, outside our small world of martial arts, all people follow a set of rules/laws. in israel some of which refer to teaching martial arts. to get a license to *legally* teach ninjutsu in israel you have to follow through an instructor course, so hope that explained that. BTW i dont know what your background is (aside from what it says in  profile) but from my experience, courses and seminars are great ways to transfer big amounts of martial knowledge to wide audience, but again, this opinion might be due to difference in perspectives.



Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. I think it's been established that I'm pretty open when it comes to giving information... for a range of reasons that I haven't gone into. But in this case, we have someone saying they're in the process of learning to be an instructor... but doesn't have the resources, or abilities to get such basic answers about one of the very first things learnt in the Bujinkan (Hicho no Kata is the second of the three fundamental striking forms taught to beginners, and form part of the absolute basics of the art). And, as a result, it doesn't bode well (to my mind) to have instructors who still have such questions. Above and beyond, these things are learnt by experience... I mean, I could explain what Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu is about, what the essential aspects are, what it's ideas and principles are, but unless you've got experience in it, it won't mean anything, as you'll misunderstand what I'm saying. So no, I probably wouldn't link anything in this instance... not until I got a lot more information about the poster and what his situation is.



I might not have been clear enough, but i do have a large amount of information i have retrieved from my instructors, but part of the point is expanding the knowledge and not relying only on what materials my instructors and i have, so i thought the internet (which has already helped me in the past in similiar research) would be a good place to find new resources. about the part where Hicho No Kata is for beginners, i believe you are completely wrong. It is indeed one of the *first* katas taught, but when you return to it as an advanced student you find new perspectives and complexity within it (as hatsumi said - knowing the kihon happo and sanshin kata (truly) is mastering all martial arts), which is something im sure you experienced as well. but that is a discussion for a later time.

about the info itself: people over the years have written books, and mounds of information on most if not all schools of ninjutsu. the problem with most of them that they are not in languages i understand (i.e. japanese/russian etc.) i suppose most of the people in this forum dont translate ancient scrolls (but i might be wrong) leaving 2 main sources for info: 1. your teacher and 2. books in your language. since the amount of books that arent in japanese but are translated well from it is small, my rquest was to get some links (if any existed, though after my own searches im starting to truly doubt it) to resources writing about the background on the school, kihon happo, the kamae, and kata. If you think that this information is supposed to be secret and passed only verbally between teacher and student, you can say it and ill stop bothering you, but i do disagree with that conception of teaching, as i think it causes the system to "die out" over the years....but again, that is for another discussion.

hope i explained myself better . oh and good day to you all


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## jks9199 (Jan 28, 2013)

You have to remember that we get all sorts on this site... and some of them are pretty odd, especially in the ninjutsu area.  Your instructor program makes more sense now, at least to me.

I don't think Chris is saying that the material is secret or only to be taught teacher-to-student, but that the majority of what your after simply hasn't been written down for a variety of reasons, as you've already discussed. Good luck with your hunt; I did find some stuff when I searched for Hicho No Kata online, mostly videos, but it's something maybe to work from.


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## Kozure Okami (Jan 28, 2013)

Hi,

I could have those answers, but Chris Parker is right in everything he explained. It's not Shôdan level to know each details about this or this stance. I mean, there is no interest, no useful. Even most of Shidoshi [in France anyway, and in Europe] don't know exactly the history of each stance and real "lineage" of each kata in kihon happo gata (I mean, from which school they are from exactly, under wich element, how the stance where built or chosen, or other similar kind of classification - but that exist).
The shidoshi who is your teacher should give you what you need exactly for your next rank(s), no more and no less, and the system of ranking in the same in all the world. The actual French Shihan, Arnaud Cousergue, knows the Israel Shihan (who came in France), and the training is the same.
When you will be shidoshi-ho, you will receive from his hands the "book" of the nine schools, with history, lineage, school techniques, ..... and let me say to you, you will have lots of things to read... and to practise.
Hatsumi Sensei said « the secret is the practise »... And I'm sure that a school won't "die out" over the years just because one doesn't know if hichô no kamae comes from one school or another, when it was put in the scrolls exactly or other "boring" knowledge. There is no "secret" here, but there is so much to learn before that, with your body, and your heart.
Hey, you are not trying to pass a Menkyô Kaiden exam, Shidoshi's exam is already "not bad" to try to reach and, for sure, you will have plenty of knowledge before that.

With Respect from France,
Kozure Ôkami


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## Chris Parker (Jan 29, 2013)

Dean X said:


> allow me to explain:



Hi Dean,

Cool, thanks for this.



Dean X said:


> I meant shodan.



Okay.



Dean X said:


> I live and study bujinkan in Israel (from real life instructors LOL), so forgive me if I'm not so familiar with all the japanese ranks and such, here in israel we pay more importance to studying and the knowledge itself than the formalities.



The ranking is part of the study and knowledge. I really don't see how you could hold a rank in an art and not know what the rank you hold is... But more to the point, can you say who you are with? Moti Nativ? Moshe Kastiel? The Akban group? This is just for my interest, really.



Dean X said:


> Regarding the instructor course: as you might be aware, outside our small world of martial arts, all people follow a set of rules/laws. in israel some of which refer to teaching martial arts. to get a license to *legally* teach ninjutsu in israel you have to follow through an instructor course, so hope that explained that.



Look, honestly, I doubt that. For one thing, that would require some form of governmental accreditation of not only the instructors, but of the systems themselves. And the amount of, for example, fake "Koga Ninjitsu" I see coming out of Israel denies that. Then there is the fact that, for something like the Bujinkan, it's an international organisation headed in Japan, not Israel, so there is no way the Israeli government could comment on, or state who is or isn't allowed to teach it. The most that can be done is that all registered commercial instructors need to do coaching and first aid-style courses... which is quite a fair way away from there needing to be an official (legal) licence to teach... For the Bujinkan, you need a Shidoshi licence... from the Bujinkan Honbu in Japan. Nothing to do with any laws in Israel. I'd suggest that, if you've been told that, it's likely not correct. If it is correct, it's unique in the world, and completely un-enforceable.



Dean X said:


> BTW i dont know what your background is (aside from what it says in  profile) but from my experience, courses and seminars are great ways to transfer big amounts of martial knowledge to wide audience, but again, this opinion might be due to difference in perspectives.



What I was talking about was DVD/Correspondence courses, used instead of having actual instruction.



Dean X said:


> I might not have been clear enough, but i do have a large amount of information i have retrieved from my instructors, but part of the point is expanding the knowledge and not relying only on what materials my instructors and i have, so i thought the internet (which has already helped me in the past in similiar research) would be a good place to find new resources.



So what are you missing? Your initial request was for everything from the history of the school to how to do the kata...



Dean X said:


> about the part where Hicho No Kata is for beginners, i believe you are completely wrong. It is indeed one of the *first* katas taught, but when you return to it as an advanced student you find new perspectives and complexity within it



All I said was that it was one of the first things you learn, not that it's exclusively a beginners exercise.



Dean X said:


> (as hatsumi said - knowing the kihon happo and sanshin kata (truly) is mastering all martial arts),



Bluntly, Hatsumi is wrong. It's fundamental to his martial arts (well, for Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, at least), but that's it.



Dean X said:


> which is something im sure you experienced as well. but that is a discussion for a later time.



It's also not part of what I was talking about, nor was it something in your original post.



Dean X said:


> about the info itself: people over the years have written books, and mounds of information on most if not all schools of ninjutsu. the problem with most of them that they are not in languages i understand (i.e. japanese/russian etc.)



I don't know that I'd agree with that...



Dean X said:


> i suppose most of the people in this forum dont translate ancient scrolls (but i might be wrong) leaving 2 main sources for info: 1. your teacher and 2. books in your language. since the amount of books that arent in japanese but are translated well from it is small, my rquest was to get some links (if any existed, though after my own searches im starting to truly doubt it) to resources writing about the background on the school, kihon happo, the kamae, and kata.



The first source you mention there should be your primary one. The second can be rather misleading. The other source you should look to is your own training.



Dean X said:


> If you think that this information is supposed to be secret and passed only verbally between teacher and student, you can say it and ill stop bothering you, but i do disagree with that conception of teaching, as i think it causes the system to "die out" over the years....but again, that is for another discussion.



No, it's not that I think it should be secret, it's that it's esoteric. It's a form of information that you can't understand until you have enough experience to understand it... and, if you need to ask about it, you don't have enough experience to understand it yet, so pointing you to online sources is pointless. I mean, I could start talking about the history of Gyokko Ryu, the stories about the founding (in China), who founded it etc, but can you see how that has influenced the rest of the school? Can you see what the tactics embodied are? Do you know how the history forms the methods? Can you see why? Can you differentiate the tactical approach of Gyokko Ryu as opposed to Koto, Kukishinden, Shinden Fudo etc? Do you know how to recognize when the Ryu's methods are being followed or not? The more experience you get in this, the more you can see the answers, but just being told the details won't really mean anything until you already know them.

From there, you get the issues (if you were sent to various sources) as to who you listen to... I mean, are you aware that the Jinenkan do Hicho no Kata differently? There are also some differences in their take on the kamae as well, ditto for the Genbukan... then there's the plethora of differences just within the Bujinkan, and we get to a point where you could very easily be sent to a site that goes against what your teacher wants you to get from his lessons (and pass on to the new students). I mean, I can answer each question you have, but what I tell you might go against what you're supposed to teach, and honestly, a lot of what I might say you might not understand (depending on how in depth your study has been).



Dean X said:


> hope i explained myself better . oh and good day to you all



And again, thank you for that.


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## Troy Wideman (Jan 29, 2013)

Look, honestly, I doubt that. For one thing, that would require some form of governmental accreditation of not only the instructors, but of the systems themselves. And the amount of, for example, fake "Koga Ninjitsu" I see coming out of Israel denies that. Then there is the fact that, for something like the Bujinkan, it's an international organisation headed in Japan, not Israel, so there is no way the Israeli government could comment on, or state who is or isn't allowed to teach it. The most that can be done is that all registered commercial instructors need to do coaching and first aid-style courses... which is quite a fair way away from there needing to be an official (legal) licence to teach... For the Bujinkan, you need a Shidoshi licence... from the Bujinkan Honbu in Japan. Nothing to do with any laws in Israel. I'd suggest that, if you've been told that, it's likely not correct. If it is correct, it's unique in the world, and completely un-enforceable.



Hi Chris,

Actually he is right. I believe you need an outside instructors course through the wingate institute to teach publically in Israel. This is a rule by the Israeli gov"t. I know all the israeli Bujinkan Black Belts have this licence.

I am sure just like any other country there are people that teach without it, however, probably in really small groups.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Troy Wideman (Jan 29, 2013)

Hi,

Just to give you a bit of information. Hicho no kata is in the beginning level of Gyokko Ryu Jo Ryaku No Maki. In the section labeled Taihen Kihon Gata. Both Migi and Hidari are considered two seperate techniques. Not sure what else you are looking for?


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## jks9199 (Jan 29, 2013)

Troy Wideman said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> Actually he is right. I believe you need an outside instructors course through the wingate institute to teach publically in Israel. This is a rule by the Israeli gov"t. I know all the israeli Bujinkan Black Belts have this licence.
> 
> ...



It sounds like that's a completely independent thing from the Bujinkan, like being required to get a generic coaching certification before teaching in a community center or gym, right?  And it'd be required of anyone teaching a martial art, from aikido to zulu spear throwing...


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## Dean X (Jan 29, 2013)

Troy Wideman said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just to give you a bit of information. Hicho no kata is in the beginning level of Gyokko Ryu Jo Ryaku No Maki. In the section labeled Taihen Kihon Gata. Both Migi and Hidari are considered two seperate techniques. Not sure what else you are looking for?
> 
> ...



first of all, thanks, a straight answer is nice 

generally i know about the kata, school and, kihon. i wanted to know (though ive already found some written resources) about the main themes of the school (for future reference by people stating i should know it, i do, but i dont assume i know everything and sometimes by looking over other sources you learn new things), and the general ninjutsu themes that appear in the kata (for example the moguri theme, that does).

but again, thanks for trying to help me. i really appreciate it.



jks9199 said:


> It sounds like that's a completely independent thing from the Bujinkan, like being required to get a generic coaching certification before teaching in a community center or gym, right?  And it'd be required of anyone teaching a martial art, from aikido to zulu spear throwing...



Next level of reply is to quote the israeli law books (or watever there is), and im not gonna do that. but there is a law demanding that people who teach any kind of martial art partake in an instructor course made of two parts:

1. general part: any martial art practitioner wishing to teach must go throught this together (karate, judo, arnis, ninjutsu etc.). mainly consisting of first aid, standing in front of crowds, safety standards and all that stuff.

2. specific art proficiency (i just invented the name lol): a part of the course that every martial art has for itself (apart from the others). mainly consists of special emphasis when teaching that special art. unique ways of instruction (if there are any) and special safety guides (it would probably differentiate between judo and ninjutsu for example). this is the part the work is for.

*Generally*

I'm gonna stop explaining everything now. not that this isn't fun, but i originally came here to hopefully get to some good online resources (again, only if there are any), and maybe find a new place to ask question and expand knowledge. i dont think proving myself or my skills is part of the "program". i would really appreciate the help, but if you feel you cant do that because you cant "trust" me or something like that, it is truly o.k. i appreciate that there are a variety of perspectives on the subject of how and if and when knowledge in the schools of bujinkan can or should be passed on from one to another, and no-one has to agree with me on the subject.

i say that lightheartedly and hope that i did not insult anyone or stepped on anyones ego.

thanks to those who have and will help me


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## Chris Parker (Jan 29, 2013)

Troy Wideman said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> Actually he is right. I believe you need an outside instructors course through the wingate institute to teach publically in Israel. This is a rule by the Israeli gov"t. I know all the israeli Bujinkan Black Belts have this licence.
> 
> ...



Hi Troy,

Thanks for that. I also got a PM from another member who confirmed it (via Moti Nativ), and can honestly say that I'm surprised, and unsure of the way anything beyond basics (first aid, generic coaching courses) could be really regulated. But I'll get back to that. Good to see you again!



jks9199 said:


> It sounds like that's a completely independent thing from the Bujinkan, like being required to get a generic coaching certification before teaching in a community center or gym, right?  And it'd be required of anyone teaching a martial art, from aikido to zulu spear throwing...



Yeah, which is what I suggested was all it really could be (in my comments that Troy quoted in his post).



Dean X said:


> first of all, thanks, a straight answer is nice
> 
> generally i know about the kata, school and, kihon. i wanted to know (though ive already found some written resources) about the main themes of the school (for future reference by people stating i should know it, i do, but i dont assume i know everything and sometimes by looking over other sources you learn new things), and the general ninjutsu themes that appear in the kata (for example the moguri theme, that does).
> 
> but again, thanks for trying to help me. i really appreciate it.



So, if you already have all that information, what are you looking for? And what level is your understanding at? I mean, could you answer the questions I put forth earlier? If you missed them, here they are again:



Chris Parker said:


> I mean, I could start talking about the history of Gyokko Ryu, the stories about the founding (in China), who founded it etc, but can you see how that has influenced the rest of the school? Can you see what the tactics embodied are? Do you know how the history forms the methods? Can you see why? Can you differentiate the tactical approach of Gyokko Ryu as opposed to Koto, Kukishinden, Shinden Fudo etc? Do you know how to recognize when the Ryu's methods are being followed or not?



To add to that, what do you understand as being the main themes? Are you talking about Gyokko Ryu, or the Bujinkan? They can be quite different. I have found that, as the Bujinkan tends to mix everything together (as well as add aspects not present in any of the Ryu), there can be a rather large discrepancy between what one Bujinkan practitioner and another "knows" to be the main themes/principles/concepts/etc of any of the Ryu. I was recently watching a DKMS video on Shinden Fudo Ryu, and saw a senior Japanese Shihan (who has Menkyo Kaiden in each of the Ryu) mix up the principles of two Ryu with similar kata, to the point that he completely went against the principles of the Ryu they were meant to be studying.

This is what I was getting at when I said that one of the major sources should be your training, along with what your instructor tells you... I could talk about the importance of the direction and position of the thumbs, or of why the kamae have the hand positions where they are, and so on, but I've found a number of Bujinkan members (even instructors) who think such things aren't important, or are unaware of them... and some who think such things aren't even part of the Ryu and it's methods.

When it comes to "the general ninjutsu themes that appear in the kata", I'd say none. Moguri (diving, submerging), for instance, isn't part of it. Additionally, that's a taijutsu concept (most commonly in the Takagi and Kukishin traditions), not a ninjutsu one, and not really related to Gyokko Ryu in that sense. You could describe one or two aspects of Hicho no Kata as having a "moguri" concept, but it's not the same thing as the actual moguri idea as seen in the other Ryu-ha. What Gyokko Ryu kata have are Kosshijutsu principles (in general), and Gyokko Ryu principles (in specific). Yes, Gyokko Ryu is related to the "ninjutsu" approaches, but ninjutsu itself is quite removed from what is being discussed here.



Dean X said:


> Next level of reply is to quote the israeli law books (or watever there is), and im not gonna do that. but there is a law demanding that people who teach any kind of martial art partake in an instructor course made of two parts:
> 
> 1. general part: any martial art practitioner wishing to teach must go throught this together (karate, judo, arnis, ninjutsu etc.). mainly consisting of first aid, standing in front of crowds, safety standards and all that stuff.
> 
> 2. specific art proficiency (i just invented the name lol): a part of the course that every martial art has for itself (apart from the others). mainly consists of special emphasis when teaching that special art. unique ways of instruction (if there are any) and special safety guides (it would probably differentiate between judo and ninjutsu for example). this is the part the work is for.



The general part was all I could see as being possible, really, and, as I said, can really only be applicable to people running dojo commercially (even if part time). The second part, though, is where I'd have some major questions as to how well it could possibly work... I mean, the way you're writing this part, it seems that the criteria to get the licence (from the government) is dependent on the internal criteria of the art/organisation itself.... with no way for the government to be able to say what is good enough or not. As a result, the whole thing falls down, and we get things like this:






Now, there's no fraudbusting here, but I don't think it'd come as a big surprise to anyone that the "Koga Ryu Ninjitsu" group stemming from Ronald Duncan is completely baseless in terms of Ninjutsu arts, and has almost nothing to do with Japanese martial arts at all. The usage of weapons is purely fantasy based, the unarmed portions are terrible and again, based in nothing at all... and this is the "head instructor" for the Israeli Koga Ryu group. This is what I meant when I said that it was unenforceable, from a governmental standpoint, in ensuring quality of instruction, which is really one of the primary reasons to have such licences in the first place, as there is no way for a government to have enough education and information on all possible martial forms to make any real binding legislation. Realistically, all the government could do (feasibly) would be to enforce the first (general) aspect, and state that anyone opening a school needs to have done a first aid and coaching course... but that's got nothing to do with the arts being taught.



Dean X said:


> *Generally*
> 
> I'm gonna stop explaining everything now. not that this isn't fun, but i originally came here to hopefully get to some good online resources (again, only if there are any), and maybe find a new place to ask question and expand knowledge. i dont think proving myself or my skills is part of the "program". i would really appreciate the help, but if you feel you cant do that because you cant "trust" me or something like that, it is truly o.k. i appreciate that there are a variety of perspectives on the subject of how and if and when knowledge in the schools of bujinkan can or should be passed on from one to another, and no-one has to agree with me on the subject.
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone has said anything about not trusting you, Dean, nor about you "proving" yourself. What I have sought is a baseline of what understanding you already have. And, when not providing answers, it's not a matter of not trusting you, it's a matter of the answers not coming from written words, but from your instructor (based on the understanding of the Ryu they're trying to get across to you), and your training itself. I mean, if we sent you back with the understanding that Hicho no Kata has you land forward with your kicking leg (and to the left), then turning back to the right to strike to the back of the head, and you showed that, would that be correct or not correct? Again, your best source of the information (for what you would be teaching) is your instructor... as you would be passing on what they've taught you. 

Additionally, your OP was so vague that it wasn't clear exactly what you need... if you know the history of Gyokko Ryu, then you don't need us to tell you about it. If you know what the Kihon Happo is, and where it comes from, then you don't need us to tell you about it. If you know what Hicho no Kamae and Hicho no Kata are, then you don't need us to tell you about them.

So, one more time.... what do you already know, and where is your knowledge lacking?


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## Troy Wideman (Jan 30, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Troy,
> 
> Thanks for that. I also got a PM from another member who confirmed it (via Moti Nativ), and can honestly say that I'm surprised, and unsure of the way anything beyond basics (first aid, generic coaching courses) could be really regulated. But I'll get back to that. Good to see you again!
> 
> ...


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## Dean X (Jan 30, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Troy,
> I don't think anyone has said anything about not trusting you, Dean, nor about you "proving" yourself. What I have sought is a baseline of what understanding you already have. And, when not providing answers, it's not a matter of not trusting you, it's a matter of the answers not coming from written words, but from your instructor (based on the understanding of the Ryu they're trying to get across to you), and your training itself. I mean, if we sent you back with the understanding that Hicho no Kata has you land forward with your kicking leg (and to the left), then turning back to the right to strike to the back of the head, and you showed that, would that be correct or not correct? Again, your best source of the information (for what you would be teaching) is your instructor... as you would be passing on what they've taught you.
> 
> Additionally, your OP was so vague that it wasn't clear exactly what you need... if you know the history of Gyokko Ryu, then you don't need us to tell you about it. If you know what the Kihon Happo is, and where it comes from, then you don't need us to tell you about it. If you know what Hicho no Kamae and Hicho no Kata are, then you don't need us to tell you about them.
> ...



I was vague for a reason. i dont want to hear someone specific's opinion on the matter, rather to find resources talking about everything (the history of the school, main principles etc...everything you wrote) and then, using the advice of my teacher, to extract the relevant knowledge for my research. if i needed a specific answer i would ask a specific question, but sometimes as you might know, you need to first learn what question you'd like to ask, the only way to do that is to access more general data bases, which is the origin of my request:

*to simplify: i would like to find general resources (hopefully online) that talk about the 4 subjects in my OP. i promise that i will use my common senses and advice of my instructors to extract the relevent information from them. if i would not do this, it would be my fault as a student for taking said knowledge for granted, and not trying to understand or learn it's "application" in training, teaching, or real life situations.* 

thanks,
Dean


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 30, 2013)

There are a lot of books out there written by Hatsumi Sensei that might help you piece things together.  Most are in english so you should be okay there.  They should always be your first resource.  There is Paul Richardson's book History of the Schools of the Bujinkan.(has some mistakes)   I know there are several others but I cannot think of them right now.  First and foremost get as much information from your instructor as possible.  Next if he is unable to answer your questions maybe he can ask one of his instructors for further clarification.  I know at one point I had a distinct question and it went up the chain and was eventually answered by Hatsumi Sensei. (I received a letter from him via one of the Shihan though I had to have it translated)  Lots of infomation out there but you are going to have to dig for it!  That in the end always makes for the best research!!!


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## Chris Parker (Feb 1, 2013)

Dean X said:


> I was vague for a reason. i dont want to hear someone specific's opinion on the matter, rather to find resources talking about everything (the history of the school, main principles etc...everything you wrote) and then, using the advice of my teacher, to extract the relevant knowledge for my research. if i needed a specific answer i would ask a specific question, but sometimes as you might know, you need to first learn what question you'd like to ask, the only way to do that is to access more general data bases, which is the origin of my request:
> 
> *to simplify: i would like to find general resources (hopefully online) that talk about the 4 subjects in my OP. i promise that i will use my common senses and advice of my instructors to extract the relevent information from them. if i would not do this, it would be my fault as a student for taking said knowledge for granted, and not trying to understand or learn it's "application" in training, teaching, or real life situations.*
> 
> ...



To try once more, Dean, what does your teacher say about all of your questions? How do they present Gyokko Ryu's history? How do they teach Hicho no Kata and Hicho no Kamae? What do they say are the main principles of Gyokko Ryu? I mean, that's who you're teaching under, so you're supposed to be representing what they've taught you. If there are specific questions you have with regards to what you've been taught so far (if it's not enough for your paper), ask them... but you really should remember that, even if you're going to "official" websites, you're still going to just be getting "someone specific's opinion on the matter(s)"... and this is a discussion forum. We don't just send you somewhere, we try to answer questions and have a conversation. So, if you are interested in hearing what we might have to say, ask. But the refusal to answer anything you've been asked, and the vague way of asking about specific things means we're not going to get very far here. Up to you, now.


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## Dean X (Feb 1, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> the matter(s)"... and this is a discussion forum. We don't just send you somewhere, we try to answer questions and have a conversation. So, if you are interested in hearing what we might have to say, ask. But the refusal to answer anything you've been asked, and the vague way of asking about specific things means we're not going to get very far here. Up to you, now.



OK, ill go with the flow. lets go question by question:

1. What, *In your personal opinion (everyone feel free to answer)*, are the principles of bujinkan/gyokko ryu/ninjutsu, that appear in hicho no kata? Also, how are they expressed in the kata?


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## Chris Parker (Feb 2, 2013)

Well, honestly Dean, I was hoping you were going to answer the questions put to you first... so we'd have some idea of where you are with your understanding. Because, as this question stands, we'd need to agree on what the Gyokko Ryu principles are, as well as the Bujinkan principles, and "ninjutsu" principles, before we got to how they appear in the kata. We'd also need to have some understanding/agreement on how the kata is performed, as that can change the expression/presence of the principles in the first place... as I said, the different organisations perform it differently... and in the Bujinkan it can change from instructor to instructor. This is what I meant when I said that, in order for you to be teaching it, the only real reference needed is the way your teacher has taught it to you initially... as that's the only version that should count for your teaching paper.

But to give you an idea of my take on things, there are no principles from Bujinkan or "ninjutsu" that appear in Hicho no Kata. And everything that is there are expressions of principles from Gyokko Ryu.

So, Gyokko Ryu principles within Hicho no Kata? Well, the Gyokko Ryu riai and ma-ai to begin with, Gyokko Ryu tai sabaki, Gyokko Ryu ken and keri, as well as uke waza, Gyokko Ryu angling and timing, Gyokko Ryu tactics, and Gyokko Ryu kamae, which themselves show Gyokko Ryu tactics and riai. 

Ninjutsu principles? None. It's not ninjutsu, it's kosshijutsu.

Bujinkan principles? None. When taken as a single, separate kata, and as part of the teachings of Gyokko Ryu, it is not a part of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, although it can be used to explore and examine Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu ideals, concepts, and principles... but Gyokko Ryu kata don't contain principles of Bujinkan, Bujinkan can contain principles from Gyokko Ryu.... which is a different idea entirely.


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## Dean X (Feb 2, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Well, honestly Dean, I was hoping you were going to answer the questions put to you first... so we'd have some idea of where you are with your understanding. Because, as this question stands, we'd need to agree on what the Gyokko Ryu principles are, as well as the Bujinkan principles, and "ninjutsu" principles, before we got to how they appear in the kata. We'd also need to have some understanding/agreement on how the kata is performed, as that can change the expression/presence of the principles in the first place... as I said, the different organisations perform it differently... and in the Bujinkan it can change from instructor to instructor. This is what I meant when I said that, in order for you to be teaching it, the only real reference needed is the way your teacher has taught it to you initially... as that's the only version that should count for your teaching paper.



I'll try to give out information as we go, but in some parts, im not sure what i know, because some things i was taught without naming them (as youll see in the next paragraph). in israel we tend to invent our own names for elements and not always use the japanese names as do most other parts of the world (as far as i see), if you have any specific questions about my knowledge ill be happy to answer.



Chris Parker said:


> But to give you an idea of my take on things, there are no principles from Bujinkan or "ninjutsu" that appear in Hicho no Kata. And everything that is there are expressions of principles from Gyokko Ryu.
> 
> So, Gyokko Ryu principles within Hicho no Kata? Well, the Gyokko Ryu riai and ma-ai to begin with, Gyokko Ryu tai sabaki, Gyokko Ryu ken and keri, as well as uke waza, Gyokko Ryu angling and timing, Gyokko Ryu tactics, and Gyokko Ryu kamae, which themselves show Gyokko Ryu tactics and riai.
> 
> ...



thank you very much . i have some questions about what you wrote:
firstly, what is ma-ai and riai, i dont know these concepts (at least not by that name)?
secondly, and more importantly, how would you define the other concepts as uniquely Gyokko Ryu? i mean what is the difference between gyokko ryu tai sabaki to koto ryu tai sabaki (for example)?

finally, i stand mistaken about the ninjutsu part (thanks for correcting me), but regarding bujinkan, according to what you wrote, bujinkan is seperate from the nine schools, and might contain principles or concepts from them, but is a wholly different "system". is that so? and if so how can you train in something you have no kata or techniques in? (this last question has nothing to do with my research only my general knowledge)


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## Chris Parker (Feb 2, 2013)

Dean X said:


> I'll try to give out information as we go, but in some parts, im not sure what i know, because some things i was taught without naming them (as youll see in the next paragraph). in israel we tend to invent our own names for elements and not always use the japanese names as do most other parts of the world (as far as i see), if you have any specific questions about my knowledge ill be happy to answer.



Cool. That's not too uncommon in the Bujinkan, really... but in traditional martial arts, using the same terminology is rather vital to actual study of the art, for a variety of reasons. One is that everyone studying it have a common language, but even more importantly, many traditional systems have their own particular use of terminology and jargon, which provide quite an insight into the art itself. The names are never just "the names", and really shouldn't be ignored.



Dean X said:


> thank you very much . i have some questions about what you wrote:



Not a problem.



Dean X said:


> firstly, what is ma-ai and riai, i dont know these concepts (at least not by that name)?



Riai are combative principles, and ma-ai is distancing.



Dean X said:


> secondly, and more importantly, how would you define the other concepts as uniquely Gyokko Ryu?



Neither riai nor ma-ai are uniquely Gyokko Ryu principles or concepts, but Gyokko Ryu has it's own unique riai (combative principles) and sense of ma-ai (distancing), which is different to each of the other systems.



Dean X said:


> i mean what is the difference between gyokko ryu tai sabaki to koto ryu tai sabaki (for example)?



Well, that's what I was getting at... do you recognize them as distinct? If not, then how can we progress with the different principles of Gyokko Ryu? If so, you already have your answers...



Dean X said:


> finally, i stand mistaken about the ninjutsu part (thanks for correcting me), but regarding bujinkan, according to what you wrote, bujinkan is seperate from the nine schools, and might contain principles or concepts from them, but is a wholly different "system". is that so?



Absolutely!



Dean X said:


> and if so how can you train in something you have no kata or techniques in? (this last question has nothing to do with my research only my general knowledge)



Not all systems are kata-based (traditional Japanese arts are, Jeet Kune Do isn't, and so on)... really, the answer is that each art has it's own training methods, so one thing that is present in one art isn't necessarily required for another.


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## Dean X (Feb 2, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Cool. That's not too uncommon in the Bujinkan, really... but in traditional martial arts, using the same terminology is rather vital to actual study of the art, for a variety of reasons. One is that everyone studying it have a common language, but even more importantly, many traditional systems have their own particular use of terminology and jargon, which provide quite an insight into the art itself. The names are never just "the names", and really shouldn't be ignored.



I definately agree, and therefore am learning new things and expanding my knowledge every day.




Chris Parker said:


> Riai are combative principles, and ma-ai is distancing.



thanks.




Chris Parker said:


> Neither riai nor ma-ai are uniquely Gyokko Ryu principles or concepts, but Gyokko Ryu has it's own unique riai (combative principles) and sense of ma-ai (distancing), which is different to each of the other systems.



i got that there are specific riai and ma-ai for each system, but my question is, and i know it is a broad one, how can i define the special characteristics for gyokko ryu? is it written somewhere organized (like the riai for every school, ma-ai,tai sabaki and so forth), or do you just remember everything?



Chris Parker said:


> Well, that's what I was getting at... do you recognize them as distinct? If not, then how can we progress with the different principles of Gyokko Ryu? If so, you already have your answers..



 i understand there is a difference, of course, but i dont know how to define it in words lol.




Chris Parker said:


> Not all systems are kata-based (traditional Japanese arts are, Jeet Kune Do isn't, and so on)... really, the answer is that each art has it's own training methods, so one thing that is present in one art isn't necessarily required for another.



thanks, got it (i think lol)


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 2, 2013)

Dean, when it comes to the differences between the different lineages you can start to identify what makes them unique by comparing Gyokko ryu kata to each other and them comparing them to another ryu. The differences in movement, targeting, and striking and throwing methods should become apparent. Of the Gyokko ryu kata I am familar with, there appears to me to be a very specific and effective way of setting up the desired technique through the use of clever footwork. Other than the obvious koshijutsu, this is the most easily demonstated difference between Gyokko ryu and other arts  I can articulate at this time. 

Oh and Chris, about Hatsumi's statement that the ninpo khon are the essence of all budo, I always took that to mean that the  mechanical principles found in the kihon are essential to proper mechanics in martial arts practice. That it something I would mostly agree with.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 3, 2013)

Dean X said:


> I definately agree, and therefore am learning new things and expanding my knowledge every day.



Cool.



Dean X said:


> thanks.



Not a problem.



Dean X said:


> i got that there are specific riai and ma-ai for each system, but my question is, and i know it is a broad one, how can i define the special characteristics for gyokko ryu? is it written somewhere organized (like the riai for every school, ma-ai,tai sabaki and so forth), or do you just remember everything?



No, it's not a matter of "remembering" things, it's a matter of learning them... and the way you do that is you are guided through the Ryu properly, and train it properly. Many of these aspects aren't written down, per se, but they pervade and shape the entire Ryu, it's waza, and so on. Now, that doesn't mean that just by repeating the movements you're actually getting the principles of the Ryu.... but only by training (and repeating) the kata can you get them. This is what I meant when I said it's not written down anywhere for good reasons.



Dean X said:


> i understand there is a difference, of course, but i dont know how to define it in words lol.



And that's the thing, it's in the feeling more than anything that can be put into words. I have been allowing my seniors to focus on one particular Ryu, and watched one of them performing a kata from his chosen Ryu-ha a few weeks back... then told him that he did it in a very "Koto Ryu" fashion (he's not studying Koto Ryu). His actions were all correct, in the right order, the attack was right, the defence was right... but the "feel" of the movement wasn't. It was too "direct", too "hard".... it didn't move around the opponent, the way his chosen Ryu should, seeking the best entry point. He just went straight ahead, forcing one. So, while the kata was "right", it also just wasn't.

Ellis Amdur, a teacher of Araki Ryu and Toda-ha Buko Ryu, also encountered this (common) problem when dealing with more than one Ryu-ha. He was entrusted to reconstruct a range of kata for Buko Ryu, specifically on Nagamaki and Kusarigama, using the very detailed documents that the Ryu maintained. However, when he first showed them to his teacher, the then head of Buko Ryu, she wasn't happy with them (and expressed that in a very Japanese way...), but it was nothing to do with the kata themselves. It was that the way Ellis had done them had a lot of his Araki Ryu in them. He then went away, and re-did them, pulling them back into line with the mentality and riai of Toda-ha Buko Ryu. 

As I said, the real source for all of your understanding of what makes Gyokko Ryu what it is, and what makes Hicho no Kata a part of that tradition, has to come from your training and your instructor. This stuff just can't be written down, as it's all in the experiencing.



Dean X said:


> thanks, got it (i think lol)



Ha, cool.



Himura Kenshin said:


> Dean, when it comes to the differences between the different lineages you can start to identify what makes them unique by comparing Gyokko ryu kata to each other and them comparing them to another ryu. The differences in movement, targeting, and striking and throwing methods should become apparent. Of the Gyokko ryu kata I am familar with, there appears to me to be a very specific and effective way of setting up the desired technique through the use of clever footwork. Other than the obvious koshijutsu, this is the most easily demonstated difference between Gyokko ryu and other arts  I can articulate at this time.



Honestly, Himura, that's the start of it... and is only really true on the most superficial level. It's all the stuff behind that that's where the real Gyokko Ryu lives....



Himura Kenshin said:


> Oh and Chris, about Hatsumi's statement that the ninpo khon are the essence of all budo, I always took that to mean that the  mechanical principles found in the kihon are essential to proper mechanics in martial arts practice. That it something I would mostly agree with.



It still only applies to his art, though. Hatsumi's Sanshin means nothing to a Kyudo practitioner, for instance, or a muay Thai competitor... or a judoka.... or, well, anyone else, really. I'd also say that the tactics, principles, and so on expressed therein are counter to a large number of arts out there.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 6, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> It still only applies to his art, though. Hatsumi's Sanshin means nothing to a Kyudo practitioner, for instance, or a muay Thai competitor... or a judoka.... or, well, anyone else, really. I'd also say that the tactics, principles, and so on expressed therein are counter to a large number of arts out there.



Ok, I hear you. You raise a valid point.


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## gapjumper (Feb 6, 2013)

Dean X said:


> I am undergoing an instructor course in ninjutsu, and we have to write a paper about a technique or kata of our choosing, including a brief history and background, discription of movement in the kata, emphasis' for performing and teaching the kata, and finally a lesson plan for teaching it to a group.
> 
> I chose Hicho No Kata form the Kihon Happo.



Why not write it from your own experience. What are your ideas of the form? 

Would be better than some copy/paste from internet sources, surely?

And what exactly is an "instructors course"? If it is this outside body, how will they know if your info is correct?


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## Dean X (Feb 9, 2013)

Hey,

I'm advancing with the research. I want to write about where you see Kosshi Jutsu in Hicho No Kata.
I suppose it appears in all the "moves" of the kata, but I'd like you to tell me your opinion and correct me if you think I got it wrong:

So you can see it in the block, as it is a Gyokko Ryu block, with the knuckles (bones) to a weakness point in the forearm.
You can see it in the kick, striking to the suigetsu or armpit (which are weakness points).
Finally, you can see it in the Ura Shuto, where you use the outer bone of your hand to attack the neck artery of your enemy.

Did I miss something? would you define it differently?


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## Chris Parker (Feb 9, 2013)

Hmm. Yes, you did.

The first thing to do is to clarify what you feel/believe Kosshijutsu to be, especially within the context of Gyokko Ryu. Mainly as the description you've given here isn't Kosshijutsu.

How have you been taught to identify Kosshijutsu as distinct from other combative approaches?


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 10, 2013)

Hmmm. now I'm confused slightly, Chris.  As I don't see much wrong with what Dean stated. I'm curious to see where this goes. Perhaps I will learn something new.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 10, 2013)

Okay, then... How would you define Kosshijutsu in the context of Gyokko Ryu?


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 10, 2013)

Kosshijutsu on it's own is the attacking of muscles, nerves, weak joints. Shitojutsu is using the fingertips and toes to strike those targets. What i think your getting at might be that perhaps kosshijutsu in the gyokko ryu context refers mainly to the use of shitojutsu? Remember, you've been at this longer than me.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 10, 2013)

Right. Nope. Shitojutsu is the old name for what Gyokko Ryu teaches (renamed as Kosshijutsu by Sogyokkan Ritsushi, the 12th head of the Ryu). Kosshijutsu is not the attacking of nerves and muscles, that's an oversimplification and an inaccurate one, as there's plenty within Gyokko Ryu that simply doesn't do that. And no, that's not what I was getting at either....


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## Dean X (Feb 10, 2013)

ok lemme have a try at this philosophy:
Kosshi in kanji (as defined by hatsumi) is 'finger' and 'bone'. as far as i see, there are two main explanations to the meaning of this: the first is practical, which is using the finger or bones (in other words the tips of your body) to strike the enemy weak points. the second and more philosophical ive read somewhere is that to truly learn gyokko ryu you must train "your finger to the bone" or something like that....

question is, how would you define kosshijutsu?


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## Koryu Rich (Feb 10, 2013)

Dean X said:


> ok lemme have a try at this philosophy:
> Kosshi in kanji (as defined by hatsumi) is 'finger' and 'bone'. as far as i see, there are two main explanations to the meaning of this: the first is practical, which is using the finger or bones (in other words the tips of your body) to strike the enemy weak points. the second and more philosophical ive read somewhere is that to truly learn gyokko ryu you must train "your finger to the bone" or something like that....
> 
> question is, how would you define kosshijutsu?



Do you think that is the only reading of the kanji?

It's probably best to look at this a bit deeper, there's a knack to this sort of thing.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 10, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Right. Nope. Shitojutsu is the old name for what Gyokko Ryu teaches (renamed as Kosshijutsu by Sogyokkan Ritsushi, the 12th head of the Ryu). Kosshijutsu is not the attacking of nerves and muscles, that's an oversimplification and an inaccurate one, as there's plenty within Gyokko Ryu that simply doesn't do that. And no, that's not what I was getting at either....



My experience with gyokko ryu is in the kihon happo, joryaku no maki, and some muto dori. Kosshijutsu I have experimented with is performed by striking kyusho with various fists. If there is more to koshijutsu than striking kyusho would you mind helping me figure out what that is? What else do you believe I should be looking for?


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## Chris Parker (Feb 11, 2013)

Dean X said:


> ok lemme have a try at this philosophy:
> Kosshi in kanji (as defined by hatsumi) is 'finger' and 'bone'. as far as i see, there are two main explanations to the meaning of this: the first is practical, which is using the finger or bones (in other words the tips of your body) to strike the enemy weak points. the second and more philosophical ive read somewhere is that to truly learn gyokko ryu you must train "your finger to the bone" or something like that....



Yeah... the issue with that kind of reasoning is that it only looks at a superficial (and inaccurate) level. Same with Himura's take above... looking at a single physical trait, rather than looking at what that trait is really showing you (as well as other aspects). Then it gets inaccurate when you realize that Koto Ryu, for instance, actually uses fists such as Shito Ken more than Gyokko Ryu does... in fact, Gyokko's most common striking weapons are Kiten Ken and Soku Yaku Keri, neither of which are "fingers and toes". 



Dean X said:


> question is, how would you define kosshijutsu?



I'll get to that at the end...



Koryu Rich said:


> Do you think that is the only reading of the kanji?
> 
> It's probably best to look at this a bit deeper, there's a knack to this sort of thing.



Ha, I see what you did there... punny.... (the first kanji is "kotsu", meaning bone, but can also be written meaning "a knack".... ha!)



Himura Kenshin said:


> My experience with gyokko ryu is in the kihon happo, joryaku no maki, and some muto dori. Kosshijutsu I have experimented with is performed by striking kyusho with various fists. If there is more to koshijutsu than striking kyusho would you mind helping me figure out what that is? What else do you believe I should be looking for?



So Kosshijutsu is targeting kyusho? Then is Karate Kosshijutsu? See how such a definition doesn't work? It's just too broad. In terms of what else to look for, look to the tactics and movement patterns, rather than the individual strikes/kicks etc.

So what is Kosshijutsu? Well, the biggest trait of Kosshijutsu (to my mind) is the usage of small actions to defeat larger opponents. That's where the name comes into it... the reference to "finger bones" is a reference to using smaller parts/techniques/actions to attack your opponents, with the meaning being that the bones of the fingers are the smallest (usable) ones on the body. The way that gets expressed in Gyokko Ryu is that the the primary tactic is to move around the opponent, attacking from unusual angles, rather than meeting the opponent head on. That's Kosshijutsu... the fingertips/toes against soft targets really isn't. It's a part of how the art works, but that's not the same as saying that that is Kosshijutsu, especially when it's a smaller part of the physical methods themselves.

Look at the kata. For Hicho no Kata (to begin with), the kick is "hidden" (striking from an unusual, or hidden angle) under the attacking and blocking arms.

Koku shows moving inside and outside around the opponent, deflecting the kick, and finishing with a strike from an unusual (hidden) angle.

Renyo shows constant moving around, with a hidden kick as part of the take-down, and so on.

And so it continues. Does that help?


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## skuggvarg (Feb 11, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> So what is Kosshijutsu? Well, the biggest trait of Kosshijutsu (to my mind) is the usage of small actions to defeat larger opponents. That's where the name comes into it... the reference to "finger bones" is a reference to using smaller parts/techniques/actions to attack your opponents, with the meaning being that the bones of the fingers are the smallest (usable) ones on the body. The way that gets expressed in Gyokko Ryu is that the the primary tactic is to move around the opponent, attacking from unusual angles, rather than meeting the opponent head on. That's Kosshijutsu... the fingertips/toes against soft targets really isn't. It's a part of how the art works, but that's not the same as saying that that is Kosshijutsu, especially when it's a smaller part of the physical methods themselves.
> 
> Look at the kata. For Hicho no Kata (to begin with), the kick is "hidden" (striking from an unusual, or hidden angle) under the attacking and blocking arms.
> 
> ...


Good summary I think even though sometimes there is a tendancy of putting too much weight on the "name" of the school. As for Hicho no kamae there is plenty "hidden" in the name only; the block, kick and strike action in itself are more a result of the over all movement. It hints at something much bigger, which is at the core of Gyokko Ryu. The waza links nicely to Ichimonji once you have an idea of the concepts behind it. The way of moving your body, the position of the front leg/knee, the way of recieving an attack and so on are all interesting.

Regards / Skuggvarg


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 11, 2013)

Yes that does help a lot. I certainly see all the things you have stated now that I look more specifically at them. Thanks for your assistance here Chris


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## Dean X (Feb 16, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> So Kosshijutsu is targeting kyusho? Then is Karate Kosshijutsu? See how such a definition doesn't work? It's just too broad. In terms of what else to look for, look to the tactics and movement patterns, rather than the individual strikes/kicks etc.
> 
> So what is Kosshijutsu? Well, the biggest trait of Kosshijutsu (to my mind) is the usage of small actions to defeat larger opponents. That's where the name comes into it... the reference to "finger bones" is a reference to using smaller parts/techniques/actions to attack your opponents, with the meaning being that the bones of the fingers are the smallest (usable) ones on the body. The way that gets expressed in Gyokko Ryu is that the the primary tactic is to move around the opponent, attacking from unusual angles, rather than meeting the opponent head on. That's Kosshijutsu... the fingertips/toes against soft targets really isn't. It's a part of how the art works, but that's not the same as saying that that is Kosshijutsu, especially when it's a smaller part of the physical methods themselves.
> 
> ...



First of all, yes, this helps alot. The word games make me sad i don't know japanese (yet).

I like the "strategic" view point to the overall school. I would like to ask how you see the other schools strategically, but I would'nt want to be too much of a pain in the ***, so don't feel obligated .

Thank you, anyway.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 17, 2013)

Without the strategic (larger picture) way of looking at the systems, all you can see is the individual techniques.... which is like thinking an entire meal is a single ingredient, or perhaps a single dish. Sadly, that deeply lacking and shallow level of understanding is something I see as very common, most particularly in the more "modern" systems, as well as in the Bujinkan (in the main). That small focus shapes and permeates the comments of even the most highly ranked people, sadly. But the wider understanding (which means you look far past, and beyond simple "technique", to the point that you realize the techniques themselves are far from the important part... and, at the same time, are essential... as they are a means to an end, rather than an end themselves, as they are so often seen to be) is essential. Without it, there's no real art there. Just mechanical actions.

That said, rather than go through each Ryu individually, I might just link something prepared earlier... these were two (separate) posts made by myself in two separate threads, in responce to two separate questions, that were later put together as a sticky for this section. I hope you get something out of what is written (for the record, I'd probably refine what I said in a few places today...): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...u-Budo-Taijutsu-amp-Related-arts-descriptions


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