# FEMA is not a first responder



## Tgace (Sep 11, 2005)

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05249/566101.stm



> As one who has received training by FEMA in emergency management and also training by the Department of Defense in consequence management, I believe that the federal response in New Orleans needs clarification.
> 
> The key to emergency management starts at the local level and expands to the state level. Emergency planning generally does not include any federal guarantees, as there can only be limited ones from the federal level for any local plan. FEMA provides free training, education, assistance and respond in case of an emergency, but the local and state officials run their own emergency management program. Prior development of an emergency plan, addressing all foreseeable contingencies, is the absolute requirement of the local government --and then they share that plan with the state emergency managers to ensure that the state authorities can provide necessary assets not available at the local level. Additionally, good planning will include applicable elements of the federal government (those located in the local area). These processes are well established, but are contingent upon the personal drive of both hired and elected officials at the local level.


Now. For all you FEMA/Federal Gvt. bashers. What did you think FEMA was going to accomplish? What did you think FEMA's assets were?


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## Marginal (Sep 11, 2005)

So the fact that Brownie's grossly unqualified means nothing?


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 11, 2005)

It would help if you answered his question, rather than attempting to divert (intentionally or otherwise) the debate.

Edit: *sigh* I told myself I wouldn't keep posting...


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## Tgace (Sep 11, 2005)

Not at all. Once they got there and the co-ordination wasnt happening then by all means send him packing. Im just trying to shed some light on what FEMA really is. Its a federal oversight organization, not a search and rescue organization. Who was late? The city was late, the state was late. The feds may have been late too, but their lateness wasnt the most critical, the first response is the most critical.


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## Tgace (Sep 11, 2005)

Shorin Ryuu said:
			
		

> It would help if you answered his question, rather than attempting to divert (intentionally or otherwise) the debate.
> 
> Edit: *sigh* I told myself I wouldn't keep posting...


Dont worry about it. His screen name is appropriate.


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## Marginal (Sep 11, 2005)

Why I chose it.


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## TonyM. (Sep 11, 2005)

Brown's as qualified as any BIA chief has been.


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## dearnis.com (Sep 11, 2005)

Deep breath...say nothing....


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## hardheadjarhead (Sep 11, 2005)

Nice personal attack on Marginal there, TGace.

Now, for some substance to counter your robotic and ever present defense of the government:

"The Federal Emergency Management Agency - a former independent agency that became part of the new Department of Homeland Security in March 2003 - is tasked with *responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating against disasters...*


President Carter's 1979 executive order merged many of the separate disaster-related responsibilities into a new Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). Among other agencies, FEMA absorbed: the Federal Insurance Administration, the National Fire Prevention and Control Administration, the National Weather Service Community Preparedness Program, the Federal Preparedness Agency of the General Services Administration and the Federal Disaster Assistance Administration activities from HUD. Civil defense responsibilities were also transferred to the new agency from the Defense Department's Defense Civil Preparedness Agency.

John Macy was named as FEMA's first director. *Macy emphasized the similarities between natural hazards preparedness and the civil defense activities. FEMA began development of an Integrated Emergency Management System with an all-hazards approach that included "direction, control and warning systems which are common to the full range of emergencies from small isolated events to the ultimate emergency - war..."

...As it has for more than 20 years, FEMA's mission remains: to lead America to prepare for, prevent, respond to and recover from disasters with a vision of "A Nation Prepared." At no time in its history has this vision been more important to the country than in the aftermath of Sept. 11th.


This was from their web site.  Not a first responder?  What then?  A third responder?  A "we'll get to it when our vacation is over" responder?


As for Brown's qualifications, he was director of the National Arabian Horse Association for eleven years, before he was asked to resign from that job.  He has never really done anything in his life to qualify him for his current position...and has gotten by on favors from friends in high places...just like the man who appointed him. 

If you want to believe the Rovian spin on this that attempts to reduce the goverment's sheer incompetence in this debacle, do so.  But please, don't insult our intelligence by trying to defend their inaction.  The weight of evidence is against you, and your strident posturing on behalf of Bush, et al, is starting to make you look a little silly.


Regards,


Steve*


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## Tgace (Sep 11, 2005)

"The key to emergency management starts at the local level and expands to the state level. Emergency planning generally does not include any federal guarantees, as there can only be limited ones from the federal level for any local plan."


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## hardheadjarhead (Sep 11, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> "The key to emergency management starts at the local level and expands to the state level. Emergency planning generally does not include any federal guarantees, as there can only be limited ones from the federal level for any local plan."




And here you go..._the local plan_ as stated by the Governor of Louisiana in her request to the President:


BATON ROUGEToday Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco forwarded a letter to President Bush requesting that he declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina. The full text of the letter follows: 

August 27, 2005


The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.

Through: 
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR § 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan.

Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.

Preliminary estimates of the types and amount of emergency assistance needed under the Stafford Act, and emergency assistance from certain Federal agencies under other statutory authorities are tabulated in Enclosure A.

The following information is furnished on the nature and amount of State and local resources that have been or will be used to alleviate the conditions of this emergency:
 Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby.
 Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby.
 Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters.
 Louisiana State Police (LSP): Providing support for the phased evacuation of the coastal areas.
 Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Supporting the evacuation of the affected population and preparing for Search and Rescue Missions.


Mr. President
Page Two
August 27, 2005


 Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Coordinating traffic flow and management of the evacuations routes with local officials and the State of Mississippi. 



The following information is furnished on efforts and resources of other Federal agencies, which have been or will be used in responding to this incident:
 FEMA ERT-A Team en-route.

I certify that for this emergency, the State and local governments will assume all applicable non-Federal share of costs required by the Stafford Act. 

I request Direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property.

(a) List any reasons State and local government cannot perform or contract for performance, (if applicable). 

(b) Specify the type of assistance requested.

In accordance with 44 CFR § 206.208, the State of Louisiana agrees that it will, with respect to Direct Federal assistance:

1. Provide without cost to the United States all lands, easement, and rights-of-ways necessary to accomplish the approved work.

2. Hold and save the United States free from damages due to the requested work, and shall indemnify the Federal Government against any claims arising from such work;

3. Provide reimbursement to FEMA for the non-Federal share of the cost of such work in accordance with the provisions of the FEMA-State Agreement; and

4. Assist the performing Federal agency in all support and local jurisdictional matters.

In addition, I anticipate the need for debris removal, which poses an immediate threat to lives, public health, and safety.

Pursuant to Sections 502 and 407 of the Stafford Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5192 & 5173, the State agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the United States of America for any claims arising from the removal of debris or wreckage for this disaster. The State agrees that debris removal from public and private property will not occur until the landowner signs an unconditional authorization for the removal of debris.


I have designated Mr. Art Jones as the State Coordinating Officer for this request. He will work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency in damage assessments and may provide further information or justification on my behalf.

Sincerely,




Kathleen Babineaux Blanco
Governor
Enclosure


Regards,


Steve


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## Tgace (Sep 11, 2005)

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05249/566101.stm


> Prior development of an emergency plan, addressing all foreseeable contingencies, is the absolute requirement of the local government --and then they share that plan with the state emergency managers to ensure that the state authorities can provide necessary assets not available at the local level. Additionally, good planning will include applicable elements of the federal government (those located in the local area). These processes are well established, but are contingent upon the personal drive of both hired and elected officials at the local level.


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## Tgace (Sep 11, 2005)

New Orleans (City) Emergency Response Plan



> V. TASKS
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:idunno:


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## hardheadjarhead (Sep 11, 2005)

i think its just awful how those damned wimpy Republicans are bashing FEMA, don't you?  They must be falling prey to that liberal siren song of Bush bashing:


"The federal government didn't come to grips with it until the disaster was clearly in its third or fourth day," said Sen. Jim Talent, R-Mo. "It's really hard to explain why they seemed paralyzed for several days after the levees broke." 

"There was more than enough warning over time about the dangers to New Orleans," said Colin Powell. "Not enough was done. I don't think advantage was taken of the time that was available to us and I just don't know why."

"If we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" asked former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, a Republican.

Republican Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts called the government's response "an embarrassment."

Rep. Jo Ann Emerson, R-Mo., said she could not bring herself to address Bush's actions when he arrived on the Gulf Coast. 

"I don't think I better comment on that one," she said. As far as FEMA, its performance indicates that military officials who are accustomed to doing advance work and handling crises should perhaps be put in charge to run it effectively, Emerson said. 

Emerson, who serves on committees that oversee energy and water issues as well as homeland security, said it was "so shocking and so outrageous" that emergency management officials lacked basic tools such as two-way radios to deal with the crisis, and instead vainly tried to use cell phones. 

Rep. Todd Akin, R-Mo., said the lack of communications and of chain-of-command authority to cope with an approaching storm with predictable consequences made him worry whether the country was prepared to respond to a major terrorist attack. 

Sen. Christopher "Kit" Bond, R-Mo., said: "The whole thing was a disaster. What should have happened, obviously didn't happen." 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...C30EAE33DD37D242862570750016314E?OpenDocument

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050903/ap_on_go_pr_wh/katrina_bush

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200509/s1457260.htm


Regards,


Steve


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## hardheadjarhead (Sep 11, 2005)

I'm surprised you don't think the historically strategic port of New Orleans-so vital to our economy for two hundred years-doesn't warrant fast action from the Federal government when a level five hurricane threatens.   You're clearly attempting to lay the sole responsibility of this farce on the mayor of NO and the state governor, thus steering attention away from the Federal government--who most agree lagged badly in their response.

FEMA's responsibilities:

The FRP (Federal Response Plan), first published in 1992 and recently updated, has been used in the past several years to respond to numerous disasters and emergencies declared by the President, including the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995, as well as hurricanes, tornadoes, floods and earthquakes. The Plan brings together twenty-six Federal departments and agencies and the American Red Cross to organize Federal disaster response and recovery efforts and coordinate them with an affected State. Most importantly, it provides a known and flexible framework under which local, State and Federal officials can orchestrate their response to a disaster or emergency and make the most effective use of all available resources.

http://www.fema.gov/library/light609.shtm

Here's another little outline of FEMA's responsibilities in coordinating with USGS. It talks about mitigating damage from disasters:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cach...pdf+FEMA+responsibilities&hl=en&client=safari


As for the evacuation:

Pre-disaster scenarios estimated that 100,000 or more residents would not have the transportation means to escape the city. In the interest of protecting these residents several "refuges of last resort" had been designated in advance, including the Superdome and the New Orleans Convention Center. Beginning at noon on August 28th and running for several hours, some City buses were redeployed to shuttle local residents to the refuges. Several hundred school buses were not deployed due to the City being unable to find drivers. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_Hurricane_Katrina_on_New_Orleans

Complete evacuation was impossible.  Tourists were stranded and there were thousands of poor people without the resources to leave.  

Let's look at some other little factoids here, shall we?

As the extent of Hurricane Katrina's threat to New Orleans became evident, [National Guard troops in other states with] trucks with water and ice were not positioned as planned. And when they were finally told to move, they were sent hundreds of miles away from most of the people in need. Local officials, people who had been part of the original planning, waited days, instead of hours, for help to arrive.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4839943


News reporters were in the heart of the city for several days reporting the wretched conditions there, yet nothing was done.  Doesn't the President watch the news?  While he stayed vacationing in Texas, and Dick Cheney stayed on vacation in Wyoming, and Condi Rice took in a show and shopped for shoes in New York...children and the elderly died of thirst.

Did the government have any warning it would be this bad?

The level of potential damage was predicted well before the hurricane ever came into being, yet little was done at the Federal level...and Bush fiddled away in Texas and literally ate cake while a strategically vital city got hammered into the mud:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050909/ap_on_re_us/katrina_what_planners_feared


"The design of the original levees, which dates to the 1960s, was based on rudimentary storm modeling that, it is now realized, might underestimate the threat of a potential hurricane. Even if the modeling was adequate, however, the levees were designed to withstand only forces associated with a fast-moving hurricane that, according to the National Weather Services Saffir-Simpson scale, would be placed in category 3. If a lingering category 3 storm  or a stronger storm, say, category 4 or 5  were to hit the city, much of New Orleans could find itself under more than 20 ft (6 m) of water."

J.J. Westerink, The Creeping Storm, Civil Engineering Magazine, June 2003.

Katrina was a level 5.

Michael Brown, the head of FEMA has been relieved of his command and replaced by a retired Admiral.   This didn't happen because he was competent...and its the second job in a row from which he's been sacked.

Whether FEMA is a "first responder" or not, saying such things in the face of this administration's egregious culbability is little more than pathetic and quibbling semantics.  



Regards,

Steve


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## Tgace (Sep 11, 2005)

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26



> Major population relocations resulting from an approaching hurricane or similar anticipated disaster, caused the City of New Orleans Office of Emergency Preparedness to develop a specific Hurricane Emergency Evacuation Standard Operating Procedures, which are appended to the Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan.
> 
> The SOP is developed to provide for an orderly and coordinated evacuation intended to minimize the hazardous effects of flooding, wind, and rain on the residents and visitors in New Orleans. The SOP provides for the evacuation of the public from danger areas and the designations of shelters for evacuees.


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## Tgace (Sep 11, 2005)

http://www.fema.gov/library/fff02.shtm



> *What does FEMA do?*
> 
> One way to look at what FEMA does is to think about the life cycle of disasters. Emergency managers prepare for emergencies and disasters, respond to them when they occur, help people and institutions recover from them, mitigate their effects, reduce the risk of loss, and prevent disasters such as fires from occurring.
> 
> ...


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## arnisador (Sep 12, 2005)

I always thought FEMA coordinated (only), but perhaps things have changed since the move to Homeland Security.


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## hardheadjarhead (Sep 12, 2005)

Well, FEMA's director officially resigned.  What for, TGace?  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...AR2005091200935.html?nav=rss_email/components

As long as we're tossing stuff back and forth...this from their web site:

FEMA's continuing mission within the new department is to lead the effort to prepare the nation for all hazards *and effectively manage federal response and recovery efforts following any national incident.* FEMA also initiates proactive mitigation activities, trains first responders, and manages the National Flood Insurance Program and the U.S. Fire Administration.

"...initiates proactive mitigation activities" means they take positive actions to reduce the damages caused by the disaster.  They did not.

Tens of thousands of people were stranded at the Convention Center without adequate food and water and FEMA head "Brownie" (as our President calls him) wasn't even aware of it...inspite of it having been reported widely in the news...AND inspite of it having been one of the designated shelter sites.  How many died because of his lack of proactive mitigation?  They went five days without food and water.  Please can the "first responder" red herring crap.

Their responsibility was to train first responders and insure an effective plan was in place.  There wasn't.  First responders lacked communication devices...Hell, FEMA people didn't have SAT phones.  They had to borrow phones from New Orleans officials so they could make calls to headquarters.

In response to one call FEMA directed the agency to e-mail its requests in.  The Parrish making the request was under three feet of water and had no electricity.  E-mail?

Okay...let's take your "first responder" line and set it aside for just a moment to look at this from FEMA's 2003 Strategy Plan:

"Disasters cause suffering and disrupt peoples lives and the normal functioning of their communities. States, Territories, Tribal Nations, and local governments bear the primary responsibility for responding to and recovering from disasters. *FEMAat the direction of the Presidenttakes action when State, Territorial, Tribal and local resources are overwhelmed and the Governor requests assistance.

In concert with its partners, FEMA will respond quickly and effectively, bringing the right people and resources to bear where and when they are needed most. FEMA will provide timely and appropriate disaster assistance to hasten the recovery of individuals and communities* while ensuring that efforts to prevent, avoid, and reduce the impacts of future disasters are an integral part of every recovery. Throughout, FEMA will continue its work with States and Territories to ensure the most effective sharing of disaster management responsibilities, allowing FEMA to focus on preparing the Nation for truly catastrophic events, whether natural or man-made."

You're disingenuously suggesting that the "first responders" in this event were the ones truly responsible for the disasterous handling of the situation.  Get real.  Neither Mississippi nor Louisiana had near enough resources to get a grip on this.  

A storm of this size could only be handled by swift and strong Federal response.  FEMA...because of the lack of direction by the President and the sheer ineptitude of its director...was slow off the mark.  Fatally slow.



Regards,


Steve


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## michaeledward (Sep 12, 2005)

I love the part that the President was 1,000 miles away when Brownie resigned. And the President, apparently, had no knowledge that Brownie resigned, because he was to busy, get this, working.

Acted according to Mr. Rove's script. Look for the President to accept an Oscar for that performance.


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## hardheadjarhead (Sep 12, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> I love the part that the President was 1,000 miles away when Brownie resigned. And the President, apparently, had no knowledge that Brownie resigned, because he was to busy, get this, working.




Poor guy.  He had to cut his vacation short by two days because of Katrina.  He still managed to set the record for the most vacation days taken by any President...and with three years to go.

Lazy bastard.


Regards,


Steve


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## hardheadjarhead (Sep 12, 2005)

Now I just KNOW TGace is going to love this:

The Canadian Mounties provided aid three days faster than our own government.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0909katrina-nursing-home09-ON.html

Pretty heartbreaking story otherwise.  31 elderly patients left to drown when the storm hit.  



Regards,


Steve


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## Tgace (Sep 12, 2005)

http://www.fema.gov/library/fff02.shtm

Some things *FEMA DOES NOT* do:

*Physically rescue people* or serve as "first-responders" in a disaster  *that is the responsibility of local and state police, fire and emergency personnel.*

Building dams or levees or activating sand-bagging activities  generally the responsibility of local/state officials and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

Taking "charge" of recovery effort -- FEMA works jointly with state and local officials.

Running temporary shelters or disaster feeding stations  generally the responsibility of such organizations at the American Red Cross or the Salvation Army.

Making weather predictions, fly into hurricanes or predict when rivers will surpass flood stage  generally the responsibility of the National Weather Service.

Ordering evacuations of communities due to natural disaster  generally the responsibility of state and local officials.

Setting building standards or setting zoning regulations  generally the responsibility of local and state official, with suggestions from FEMA.

Calling out the National Guard  generally a state responsibility.


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## Tgace (Sep 13, 2005)

:shrug:


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## Marginal (Sep 13, 2005)

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm

Hmm, but it's the Red Cross' job to set up shelters and deliver food you say?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/02/AR2005090200670_2.html

Food drops were stalled awaiting FEMA approval? But they have nothing to do with that!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/06/katrina/main817893.shtml

Was FEMA simply weakened that severely from one administration to the next?


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## michaeledward (Sep 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Some things *FEMA DOES NOT* do:


http://movies.go.com/movies/movie?name=xfilesthe_1998&genre=scifi&studio=TBA

Submitted for your viewing pleasure .... and as further ammunition against us tin-foil hat crowd.


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## Phoenix44 (Sep 13, 2005)

Well, I'm happy to know that Brown WAS sent packing.  He resigned.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 13, 2005)

I guess every state can't have a Pataki and a Giuliani to get things done when disaster strikes.

7sm


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## shesulsa (Nov 22, 2005)

I'm wondering if anyone else saw the Frontline expose on PBS this evening?

Key points were addressed such as those buses in the parking lot (couldn't get drivers), City and state didn't ask for help (Mayor asked for specifics, Governor asked for anything and everything, troops, supplies, aide), FEMA said, "we got it" but was late.

One general provided documentation of a listing FROM FEMA of the requests received which list included all the above and more and STILL no help.

Comments?


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## sgtmac_46 (Nov 22, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if anyone else saw the Frontline expose on PBS this evening?
> 
> Key points were addressed such as those buses in the parking lot (couldn't get drivers), City and state didn't ask for help (Mayor asked for specifics, Governor asked for anything and everything, troops, supplies, aide), FEMA said, "we got it" but was late.
> 
> ...


 I guess, in a crisis, we still can only drive a bus if we have a CDL?  Buses aren't that hard to drive.   Put key in ignition, push in clutch, shift gears, apply accelerator and keep it between the ditches. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Claiming we can't find drivers seems an awful lot like BS to me.


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## sgtmac_46 (Nov 23, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> http://movies.go.com/movies/movie?name=xfilesthe_1998&genre=scifi&studio=TBA
> 
> Submitted for your viewing pleasure .... and as further ammunition against us tin-foil hat crowd.


 If FEMA wasn't so busy with their vast conspiracies to organize the alien invasion that's coming, they would have been in New Orleans on time.  :erg:


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## Phoenix44 (Nov 23, 2005)

It's not just New Orleans.  Hurricane Katrina affected Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and parts of Florida.  Plus, it affected other states where the evacuees were accepted.  Seems to me that it called for an organized federal response.

First responder?  No...the local paramedic is a first responder, but by itself, insufficient for the magnitude of this emergency.  The "FEMA is not a first responder" argument to excuse the inadequacy of Michael Brown and FEMA in the Katrina emergency is a non-issue.


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## shesulsa (Nov 23, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> I guess, in a crisis, we still can only drive a bus if we have a CDL?


Ah ... no. From what I understood (though I did not see every second of the show), it was a matter of finding people with a pulse willing to leave their families and homes or stick it out to drive the damn things.


			
				Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> Seems to me that it called for an organized federal response.


Yes it did which is why FEMA was organized in the first place.  Jimmy Carter was pushed to organized Federal help after a series of disasters in the 70's exposed the lack of an organized, effective federal aid response.  As fate would have it, following the organization of  FEMA, there were hardly any natural disasters to strike the continent following its inception and the org became a parking lot for political conspiracy, especially after King George I's buddy was appointed to head the organization - a former advisor to his Chief of Staff with no experience in emergency response.

I wish I'd taken notes last night - names were flying, gruesome footage ... interesting stuff.

What flabbergasted me was that everyone kept pointing to everyone else saying "they never said exactly what they wanted" when the FEMA document layed it out very clearly - days before any help arrived.  "We weren't clear just exactly what they needed."  This response is indicative of people put in the wrong job.  

Does it really take rocket science to figure out that people need food, water, clothing, shelter, medicine?  C'mon - put up your hand if you had no idea?

It is disgusting.


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## Brother John (Nov 23, 2005)

Marginal said:
			
		

> So the fact that Brownie's grossly unqualified means nothing?


Who said that??? I didn't read that...
The fact that he's unqualified matters. I agree....it matters. But in the FEMA response to Katrina MANY were upset that the federal govt. didn't do more or have a better response, even to the point that ignorant entertainers could get on TV and say stupid things like "George Bush hates black people"... so stupid.
NO....the directors qualifications are important, but that's not the point here.
reread man... you'll see.


Your Brother
John


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## Tgace (Nov 23, 2005)

Yes the Feds should have done better but they are third in line...the fumble started with the city(s), bounced out of the state(s) hands and landed at the feds feet but somehow the feds are blamed with ****ing-up the play. That goes for all the states involved. When the big blizzard hits up here we dont wait for FEMA to come dig us out. They declare a disaster, send supplies and reimburse the local gvts for the expenses they incurred during the disaster. While shortages of supplies can fall somewhat on Federal shoulders, the evacuation and immediate rescue falls squarely on local/state shoulders. They had warning and lived in an area where this has always been an eventuality. They should have been better prepared.


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## shesulsa (Nov 23, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Yes the Feds should have done better but they are third in line...the fumble started with the city(s), bounced out of the state(s) hands and landed at the feds feet but somehow the feds are blamed with ****ing-up the play. That goes for all the states involved. When the big blizzard hits up here we dont wait for FEMA to come dig us out. They declare a disaster, send supplies and reimburse the local gvts for the expenses they incurred during the disaster. While shortages of supplies can fall somewhat on Federal shoulders, the evacuation and immediate rescue falls squarely on local/state shoulders. They had warning and lived in an area where this has always been an eventuality. They should have been better prepared.


Okay - everyone pay attention.  Dig up a cellar for the tornadoes and hurricanes, build a steel-reinforced concrete house with pontoons that inflate automatically when a certain water level is reached such that your entire home can float in flooded areas and remain waterproof.  Make sure you have enough MREs for at least 9 months per person in your household and a 9 month water supply, antibiotics, campden tablets and munitions.

Lobby your local government to ensure that all structures in your area meet all of these requirements because that is their responsibility and, thus, yours as a citizen.

Tom, guess what?  You cannot - CANNOT - prepare for everything.  No city, county, state nor country can.  The order goes, if the disaster is too big for a city to handle, it goes to the state.  If the disaster is too big for the state to handle, then it goes to the feds.  When it's too big for the feds to handle, we need better government officials and less finger pointing to victims.

What you cannot deny is that THIS IS WHAT FEMA WAS ORGANIZED FOR!! This is what they are MEANT to do. This is SUPPOSED to be THEIR SPECIALTY - THEIR CAUSE - THEIR JOB.

They blew it.


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## Phoenix44 (Nov 23, 2005)

Thank you shesulsa.


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## Tgace (Nov 23, 2005)

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05249/566101.stm



> The key to emergency management starts at the local level and expands to the state level. Emergency planning generally does not include any federal guarantees, as there can only be limited ones from the federal level for any local plan. FEMA provides free training, education, assistance and respond in case of an emergency, but the local and state officials run their own emergency management program.
> 
> Prior development of an emergency plan, addressing all foreseeable contingencies, is the absolute requirement of the local government --and then they share that plan with the state emergency managers to ensure that the state authorities can provide necessary assets not available at the local level. Additionally, good planning will include applicable elements of the federal government (those located in the local area). These processes are well established, but are contingent upon the personal drive of both hired and elected officials at the local level.




http://www.blacknewsweekly.com/news187.html



> Let's remember that FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, was created only in 1979. It was formed to coordinate and focus federal response to major disasters &#8211; to "assist" local and state governments.
> 
> Common sense suggests that local and state governments are best able to prepare and plan for local disasters.
> 
> ...





> The media would have you believe that this disaster was worsened by a slow response from President Bush and his administration, though *the primary responsibility for disaster response has always been with local and state governments.*
> 
> *It is true that federal response was not as fast as it could have been. The president himself has acknowledged that fact.*
> 
> ...


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## Tgace (Nov 23, 2005)

http://www.fema.gov/about/what.shtm



> What We Do
> 
> Advising on building codes and flood plain management...teaching people how to get through a disaster...helping equip local and state emergency preparedness...coordinating the federal response to a disaster...making disaster assistance available to states, communities, businesses and individuals...training emergency managers...supporting the nation's fire service...administering the national flood and crime insurance programs...the range of FEMA's activities is broad indeed.
> 
> ...



http://www.fema.gov/about/respond.shtm



> Response begins as soon as a disaster is detected or threatens. It involves mobilizing and positioning emergency equipment; getting people out of danger; providing needed food, water, shelter and medical services; and bringing damaged services and systems back on line. Local responders, government agencies and private organizations take action. Sometimes the destruction goes beyond local and state capabilities. That's when federal help is needed as well.
> 
> When the state and local governments are overwhelmed by a disaster, they make a request for federal aid through a Presidential disaster or emergency declaration. Typically, federal assistance is financial. However, the federal government may be asked to mobilize resources from any number of federal agencies, and to participate in the response. This is when the government implements the Federal Response Plan.





> Some things FEMA DOES NOT do:
> 
> Physically rescue people or serve as "first-responders" in a disaster &#8211; that is the responsibility of local and state police, fire and emergency personnel.
> 
> ...



FEMA doesn't evacuate communities. FEMA does not do law enforcement. FEMA does not do communications. FEMA does not do search and rescue. The Feds rarely just step in and take over. The feds are almost always the "last in" in these situations, the local jurisdictions always have thr primary responsibility to prepare, evacuate, rescue and maintain order until the feds arrive. 

Funny how at some times the Feds are this big intrusive entity that is too involved in our lives and has too much power and at other times they just cant step in and take over fast enough...


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## shesulsa (Nov 24, 2005)

From your post quoted from http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05249/566101.stm



> *the primary responsibility for disaster response has always been with local and state governments*



Yep, and they did everything they were prepared to do ... until the levee gave way. Once again - the situation became too much to handle, so it was escalated to the state, for which the situation became too much to handle as well.



> In addition to local responders, every state in the Union has a National Guard.



The National Guard was trapped and flooded in - their vehicles which were designed to work in flood conditions failed.

From your quote from the FEMA site http://www.fema.gov/about/respond.shtm :



> Sometimes the destruction goes beyond local and state capabilities. That's when federal help is needed as well.



Are you saying this did not happen?  I think just about everybody is in agreement that it did.



> Some things FEMA DOES NOT do:
> 
> Physically rescue people or serve as "first-responders" in a disaster  that is the responsibility of local and state police, fire and emergency personnel.
> 
> ...


Now, see ... this is the kind of thing that Fema was designed to DO - to COORDINATE the effort by taking charge.  And if they are not supposed to this, why did they then report to the general that they would indeed do these things?? Hmm??

Okay, so ... let's apply an analogy.  You strike me as a prepared individual.  I assume you're prepared for every possibility, so you obviously carry MREs on your person as well as inflatable watercraft, fireproof suit, SCBA, biohazard protection, shelter, rope - gawrsh you'd be a virtual Batman.  So, Mr. Wayne, what happens when the rope breaks? and the tent leaks? and the SCBA runs out of oxygen? and the MREs are exhausted? and your legs are broken? and your arms too? I think you'd probably lose your voice from crying for help.  Golly Jeepers, Batman!  Someone help?  But ... but ... but ... THAT'S NOT THEIR JOB!!!!


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## Tgace (Nov 24, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Yep, and they did everything they were prepared to do ... until the levee gave way.



They absolutely did not.

http://blog.kir.com/archives/002378.asp



> The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his/her emergency operations center.
> 
> The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city. Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved.
> 
> ...


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## shesulsa (Nov 24, 2005)

The National Guardsmen noticed that the one or two inches of rain went to flood stage in a matter of a couple of minutes and were flooded in before any flood warning could be issued. Repeated checks of the levee did not indicate failure until it was too late.

And if this is true ...


> The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city.


... then why do the FEMA documents state differently?  If the levee hadn't failed, they would have been far better off.  When it becomes clear that things are happening so fast your evacuation plan isn't going to work, what do you do? Escalate.

And here ...



> The city's evacuation plan states: "The city of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas." But even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them. To compound the problem, the buses were not moved to high ground and were flooded. The plan also states that "special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific lifesaving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed." This was not done.



Again, I don't think you understand just how fast everything happened.  The people who were supposed to drive those buses to higher ground didn't show - wouldn't show.  They couldn't recruit anyone to drive those buses to higher ground, much less evacuate people.  I believe they fired most of the police force, in fact, because they abandoned their positions.

 Most of the blatherings in that blog show something very simple - the inability to comprehend just how quickly things went from bad to horrific.  I could be wrong, but once a city official has turned things over to the state, the state has jurisdiction and once the state turns things over to the feds, the feds have jurisdiction.

All the things that are listed that they should have done is nothing but a big excuse for the feds to not have done their job in a timely manner.  So I guess what you're REALLY saying is ... don't rely on your government to do the job you assign to it for you - isn't that right?


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## Phoenix44 (Nov 24, 2005)

> They absolutely did not.
> 
> http://blog.kir.com/archives/002378.asp


 
Why do people think that somebody's personal blog is a authoritative information resource? I have two blogs. It doesn't make my personal opinion an authoritative source. It just makes it my opinion.


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## sgtmac_46 (Nov 27, 2005)

Though I appreciate the "poster's" comments (along with the negative post rating) about my post discussing the shortage of "drivers" able to drive a bus "being short sighted and uninformed", I still find it hard to believe that they couldn't find one person among ALL the refugees being DRIVEN away on the buses, who isn't capable of driving one.  

This seems a rather feeble defense. I've driven a bus on occassion, and i'll tell you....it's not that complex.  

Maybe THAT 'person' could explain to me the complicated dynamics of bus driving that I am missing, and what about my comment is "short sighted and uninformed".  

Whatever else is claimed about the state and local response (or lack thereof), sitting on buses because "they couldn't find drivers" is asinine and indefensible.  The idea that I am "uninformed" for suggesting that it wasn't an impediment to question why a bus can't be driven, seems to require some explaination.  

Thanks.


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## Tgace (Nov 27, 2005)

People have no idea what FEMA does...they have no troops. When the "feds have jurisdiction" in these situations they are simply co-ordinating the local assets ( i know, i have been under their command in disaster response before). Unless federal troops are involved, which the state and local authorities never stated they would need. 

Things "snowballed" because of poor planning and leadership at all levels, but New Orleans was the City and States first responsibility, not the feds.


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## shesulsa (Nov 27, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> People have no idea what FEMA does...they have no troops. When the "feds have jurisdiction" in these situations they are simply co-ordinating the local assets ( i know, i have been under their command in disaster response before). Unless federal troops are involved, which the state and local authorities never stated they would need.
> 
> Things "snowballed" because of poor planning and leadership at all levels, but New Orleans was the City and States first responsibility, not the feds.


If FEMA coordinates local and federal assets, then why did they not coordinate troops being sent in sooner?  And once again, Tom, the FEMA documents shown on the expose delineated the need for armed troops as requested by the Mayor and the Governor, so ... I don't see why you are saying they did not ask for troops?????


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## sgtmac_46 (Nov 27, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> If FEMA coordinates local and federal assets, then why did they not coordinate troops being sent in sooner? And once again, Tom, the FEMA documents shown on the expose delineated the need for armed troops as requested by the Mayor and the Governor, so ... I don't see why you are saying they did not ask for troops?????


 The main failure on the local and state level, was the failure to prepare for what, at least to many, was a perfectly predictable catastrophe.  It would be like a city in  california not being prepared for a major earthquake.  I don't want to hear Bush quoted as saying 'nobody knew'.  Heck, I knew several years ago.  Apparently the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of La. don't watch the Discovery channel.


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## Tgace (Nov 27, 2005)

Exactly....the stadium idea was stellar too.

I dont know how else to put it. Yeah the fed. response was wanting, but to try to give the local gvt. a pass and lay the brunt on FEMA is plain erroneous.


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## sgtmac_46 (Nov 27, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Exactly....the stadium idea was stellar too.
> 
> I dont know how else to put it. Yeah the fed. response was wanting, but to try to give the local gvt. a pass and lay the brunt on FEMA is plain erroneous.


 Not to mention politically motivated.


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## Tgace (Nov 27, 2005)

Absolutely. I note that even most of the more "Republican" of us here can say that the Feds need to clean house and do some re-planning...however the "other side" seems to want to believe that the City and State gvts. really did all they were capable of and blame it all on the Feds. When you are a leader you can pass along authority but not responsibility. Its a big **** sandwitch but the feds are the last to take a bite IMO.


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## shesulsa (Nov 27, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Absolutely. I note that even most of the more "Republican" of us here can say that the Feds need to clean house and do some re-planning...however the "other side" seems to want to believe that the City and State gvts. really did all they were capable of and blame it all on the Feds. When you are a leader you can pass along authority but not responsibility. Its a big **** sandwitch but the feds are the last to take a bite IMO.


Has the State put legislation up for vote before the citizens of Louisiana to raise taxes to reconstruct the levee?

I was under the impression that the people voted them down.


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## sgtmac_46 (Nov 28, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Has the State put legislation up for vote before the citizens of Louisiana to raise taxes to reconstruct the levee?
> 
> I was under the impression that the people voted them down.


 What does that tell us?


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## shesulsa (Nov 28, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> What does that tell us?


I doesn't tell us anything until we know yea or nay and information about any other attempts they've made at reconstructing the levy.

And you know, the point here is that a disaster happened.  You can point fingers at victims and talk about prevention all you friggin' want to.  The bottom line is, once again, that there is absolutely NO WAY TO PREVENT ALL DISASTERS!  And BECAUSE THIS IS TRUE, we have organizations in place to organize relief.

I mean, get real!  A guy is walking down the street, he gets shot in a drive-by and it's his fault because he was walkin' down the wrong street.  Come on.


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## 7starmantis (Nov 28, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I mean, get real! A guy is walking down the street, he gets shot in a drive-by and it's his fault because he was walkin' down the wrong street. Come on.


Thats a great point, and it brings to light another point. The fault in this situation lies only with the one doing the shooting. We can't place blame on the victim or on the government for not being there to stop the shooting, just the ******* who shot the innocent vitcim.

7sm


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## shesulsa (Nov 28, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Though I appreciate the "poster's" comments (along with the negative post rating) about my post discussing the shortage of "drivers" able to drive a bus "being short sighted and uninformed", I still find it hard to believe that they couldn't find one person among ALL the refugees being DRIVEN away on the buses, who isn't capable of driving one.
> 
> This seems a rather feeble defense. I've driven a bus on occassion, and i'll tell you....it's not that complex.
> 
> ...



It's called "I had to save my own family."  You and I are arguing apples and oranges here - your argument seems to be stemming from what people are capable of doing (turn a key, operate the steering wheel, gas and brake) and I'm talking about what people were compelled to do (save their families' lives).

I'm sure there were plenty of people in New Orleans who were CAPABLE of driving a bus. I'm also sure some of them were floating face down in the street already and others helping their kids up onto the roof or into the attic. 

So are you saying that if you could drive a bus and tool around town trying to help evacuees out of the city at the cost of abandoning your own family, you'd do it?  Most of the people in your profession in that city chose otherwise.


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## shesulsa (Nov 28, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Thats a great point, and it brings to light another point. The fault in this situation lies only with the one doing the shooting. We can't place blame on the victim or on the government for not being there to stop the shooting, just the ******* who shot the innocent vitcim.
> 
> 7sm



Agreed - nature will kick our *** every single time.  Even when we are most prepared.  And we MUST examine the failures of our government.  All our governments.  Yes the city, yes the state and yes the feds.  

What irks me is the unwillingness to point fingers at people holding press conferences saying help has arrived when it indeed hasn't or not holding accountable people who delineate the requested relief from the state, sending it on and then claiming that these things were never requested.

I guess none of it means a whole hell of a lot to someone unless they're the ones who are reassured from the report that the feds are on the way and they don't arrive for days ... the Canadians got there first - what does that say?

Is this really not indicative of a system deserving examination?  Is this what we pay taxes for? Is this what we put our faith in law enforcement, state government and when they fail our federal government - 'elected'  officials for?

If we do not examine this and hold our governments accountable for their individual failings then we do not deserve liberty.


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## 7starmantis (Nov 28, 2005)

I agree, we most assurely need to examine and "prune" because of this situation. However, I probably dont put the same amount of "faith" in the government, law enforcement, or any human person for that matter, than many do. 

Examine our government, but include all levels....I agree.

7sm


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## Kreth (Nov 28, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I mean, get real! A guy is walking down the street, he gets shot in a drive-by and it's his fault because he was walkin' down the wrong street. Come on.


I don't think the analogy holds up. New Orleans was known to be at high-risk for flooding. So maybe a better analogy would be a guy walking down the street at night in a high-crime area with money falling out of his pockets...?


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## shesulsa (Nov 28, 2005)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I don't think the analogy holds up. New Orleans was known to be at high-risk for flooding. So maybe a better analogy would be a guy walking down the street at night in a high-crime area with money falling out of his pockets...?


Okay - following that, let's say he has a knife and pepper spray "just in case."  Still won't save him from a drive-by, eh?  And does it still mean that we let the shooter off the hook because he shouldn't have been on that street dressed that way with money falling out of his pockets?


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## Kreth (Nov 28, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Okay - following that, let's say he has a knife and pepper spray "just in case." Still won't save him from a drive-by, eh? And does it still mean that we let the shooter off the hook because he shouldn't have been on that street dressed that way with money falling out of his pockets?


Not at all. But I think blame (in the case of NO) needs to be shared at all levels. The whole thing reminds me of a routine Sam Kinison used to do about starving Ethiopians in the desert. His advice (to paraphrase), "MOVE!"


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## sgtmac_46 (Nov 28, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I doesn't tell us anything until we know yea or nay and information about any other attempts they've made at reconstructing the levy.
> 
> And you know, the point here is that a disaster happened. You can point fingers at victims and talk about prevention all you friggin' want to. The bottom line is, once again, that there is absolutely NO WAY TO PREVENT ALL DISASTERS! And BECAUSE THIS IS TRUE, we have organizations in place to organize relief.
> 
> I mean, get real! A guy is walking down the street, he gets shot in a drive-by and it's his fault because he was walkin' down the wrong street. Come on.


 Not even remotely the same thing, this is nothing like a random drive by.  That would insinuate that this was a wild chance happening, that could not have been foreseen.  That is not the case.  We're not talking about ALL disasters, we're talking about this one.

A better analogy would be if you had a hot-water heater in your house that you knew needed to be replaced because it could start leaking carbon monoxide in to the house.  You've been told this, you knew this, you've known it for quite some time, but you didn't want to spend the money to fix it.  You, instead, kept hoping someone else would come along and fix it for you.

Then, one night, a carbon monoxide leak, and a couple family members die, and several more are hospitalized.  

This is like blaming the paramedics for not coming fast enough.


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## sgtmac_46 (Nov 28, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> It's called "I had to save my own family." You and I are arguing apples and oranges here - your argument seems to be stemming from what people are capable of doing (turn a key, operate the steering wheel, gas and brake) and I'm talking about what people were compelled to do (save their families' lives).
> 
> I'm sure there were plenty of people in New Orleans who were CAPABLE of driving a bus. I'm also sure some of them were floating face down in the street already and others helping their kids up onto the roof or into the attic.
> 
> So are you saying that if you could drive a bus and tool around town trying to help evacuees out of the city at the cost of abandoning your own family, you'd do it? Most of the people in your profession in that city chose otherwise.


 So your argument is that most of the law enforcement officers in the city chose not to stay? Some did not, many did. But that, as you say, is apples and oranges. Anyone can drive a bus. You don't have to 'tool around town' picking up evacuees, you can pick them up at your 'designated' staging areas. Moreover, I find it hard to believe that with ALL the evacuees they had, not one person could drive their OWN bus. Not one person, AMONG the evacuees on each bus, could DRIVE it? I find that laughable. 

Here's how that conversation should goes.....<Across loud speaker> "Attention, evacuees, I need volunteers who can DRIVE a BUS, would all those who can drive a manual transmission bus please report to me, thank you....we have BUSES but no drivers, so we need anyone who can drive a bus" 

Sure, that solution doesn't sound sophisticated, it doesn't sound bureaucratic enough, which means...it just might work. You might call that overly simplistic. I've found, however, that simple....WORKS.....K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple).  No matter how you spin it, saying 'we couldn't find drivers' is not even remotely an excuse for letting buses sit idle.  

What's my experience on the whole thing? I've personally taken a hand in several local accidents, disasters and incidents. You don't need large amounts of money and official protocals sometimes...just a little common sense and ingenuity. FEMA's great, but creative thinking is better. 

As for the backhanded attack on my profession, I find it in bad taste as many law enforcement officers from all around the country FLOCKED to New Orleans (leaving their own families behind for weeks) in order to aid that city, and did so without payment. So, again, I think you owe law enforcement an apology for insinuating that we some how failed.


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## Tgace (Nov 28, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I guess none of it means a whole hell of a lot to someone unless they're the ones who are reassured from the report that the feds are on the way and they don't arrive for days ...



What exactly did people think FEMA was going to bring with them?


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## sgtmac_46 (Nov 28, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> What exactly did people think FEMA was going to bring with them?


 A magic wand.


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## arnisador (Nov 28, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> What exactly did people think FEMA was going to bring with them?



Competence and organization, at least. Appointing a political flunky to head this group was a bad idea. Yes many people think FEMA is something it isn't--but this time, it wasn't even what it should have been: Organized, timely, reassuring, coordinating, and in general, helpful.


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## sgtmac_46 (Nov 29, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Competence and organization, at least. Appointing a political flunky to head this group was a bad idea. Yes many people think FEMA is something it isn't--but this time, it wasn't even what it should have been: Organized, timely, reassuring, coordinating, and in general, helpful.


 
Of course, that may have something to do with the extent of the initial problem this time.  A fact that the local and state government should answer for as well.  As for political flunkies, the City of New Orleans and the State of Louisiana had their share of those, too.  When it comes to inept flunkyism, this presidential administration may have a few...but he's got nothing on many Democratic city mayors.


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## arnisador (Nov 29, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Of course, that may have something to do with the extent of the initial problem this time. A fact that the local and state government should answer for as well. As for political flunkies, the City of New Orleans and the State of Louisiana had their share of those, too.



Full agreement. The city and state have much to answer for where preparation is concerned.



> When it comes to inept flunkyism, this presidential administration may have a few...but he's got nothing on many Democratic city mayors.



I dunno...it's a toss-up.


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## sgtmac_46 (Nov 29, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Full agreement. The city and state have much to answer for where preparation is concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno...it's a toss-up.


 Bush would have to hire his cousin as city engineer and his brother-in-law as head of sanitation, both fresh out of prison, to equate.  I've yet to see a city government of a place like New Orleans, Washington DC, Detroit, Baltimore, East St. Louis, etc, that wasn't, possibly the most corrupt place on the planet.  That's why, for YEARS, New Orleans had the reputation as the most corrupt police department in the country, because the mayors of that fine city appointed to it's chief position, their hand picked flunkies, who then hired more men like themselves, until officers were actually committing armed robberies in the early 1990's....ON DUTY!!!!

Again, many of these city governments end up being run like the private banana republics of the mayor, who then cash in by hiring every relative and political friend he knows for patronage jobs, whether or not those people can even SPELL the title of the position they've been appointed to.  Then, when they DRIVE the city government in to the ground, they start looking for someone to blame (Usually, that ole' stand by, racism).


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