# Ex-Soldier Stationed At Troubled Base.



## MJS (Jan 3, 2012)

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...ier-killing-stationed-at-deeply-troubled-base



> The Iraq war veteran believed to have killed a park ranger Sunday was last stationed at a Washington base considered among the military's most troubled facilities, where suicides and violence among service members have reached record levels.
> Authorities said they believed Benjamin Colton Barnes, 24  who was found dead Monday, apparently of hypothermia, in Mount Rainier National Park  shot and killed Park Ranger Margaret Anderson, 34, on Sunday. He is also believed to have shot and wounded four people, two of them critically, earlier in the day at a New Year's party in Skyway, near Seattle, authorities said.
> Barnes, a private first class, was discharged from the Army for misconduct in 2009 after he was charged with drunken driving and improperly transporting a privately owned weapon at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, Wash. Lewis-McChord has drawn national attention for widespread problems with post-traumatic stress disorder among service members returning from Afghanistan and from Iraq, where Barnes served in 2007 and 2008.




I have to wonder if any of this could've been prevented.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 3, 2012)

I only hope his death was painful and slow.


----------



## granfire (Jan 3, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> I only hope his death was painful and slow.



Have mercy on troubled souls in desperate times.

Not a lot is known, is there.
But apparently there is trouble in paradise. 
But if the area is the primary landing spot for returning veterans, they are certainly falling down on the job with those statistics.


----------



## MAist25 (Jan 3, 2012)

It's pretty sad actually. I dont know if there was any way to prevent something like this from happening but its certainly a tragedy. Often times the military is used as a way for people to straighten their lives out and give them a chance to make something of themselves, make a decent living, etc. To do something stupid like he did and get a dishonorable discharge probably gave him the sense that his life was ruined. The guy probably suffered from some mental issues following his deployment, probably did not have any college education and now was dishonorably discharged from the military. This guy pretty much had no options left to make anything of himself and he was probably very stressed out. I also read he was suicidal. I'm not saying I feel sorry for the guy, but he was definitely someone who needed help and didnt get it. The guy was just a mess.


----------



## Big Don (Jan 3, 2012)

There were a pair of guys, when I was at Fort Lewis, long before the merger with McChord, that threw one of their wives off a cliff. 
They got caught pretty quickly...


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 3, 2012)

This guy was kicked out of the military in 2009.  He wasn't crazy. He was smart enough to know what he did, and that he didn't want to go to jail.  He wasnt suicidal I suspect he would make the comments to his Girlfriend as a method of controlling her.  If he was suicidal he would have committed suicide not froze to death running from the police.  I have no pitty for him.

This is the real victim:






http://www.odmp.org/officer/21076-park-ranger-margaret-anderson


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 3, 2012)

Real Victims:

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Murdered-Ranger-remembered-by-family-co-workers-136547008.html


Sunday, the 34-year-old *mother of two* died after being shot through the side of her patrol car at a road block in the park.

  Her *daughters are just one and three years old*.

 Anderson and her family moved to the small town of Eatonville about a year ago. She volunteered at the local fire station.
 Firefighters there said the killing of their friend has hit hard.  &#8220;This was somebody most of the people in our department already knew and  were friends with,&#8221; said Chief Dexter Habeck. &#8220;So we've lost a friend."
*Anderson's husband is also a ranger and was on duty at the time of  the shooting* in a different area of the park. He left with a chaplain  after being told the terrible news. A park spokesman said co-workers  were in shock.

 &#8220;We absolutely take it personally. It&#8217;s a very small staff up here,  everybody knows everyone. Everybody was friends with Margaret. She  didn&#8217;t have an enemy in the world,&#8221; said Kevin Bacher. &#8220;She was one of  the most positive people you could ever meet. The sort of person who  would drop everything and do something for you at a moment's notice, and  did.&#8221;


----------



## elder999 (Jan 3, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> I only hope his death was painful and slow.



Freezing to death is relatively painless, by all accounts _pleasant_, and slow.

We'll be seeing more of this stuff.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 4, 2012)

elder999 said:


> We'll be seeing more of this stuff.



PTSD

We can't send hundreds of thousands of men on multiple tours to combat zones and not expect a large number to come back and be broken by the experience.  This death, IMO, is just another casualty of the unjust, unlawful, and completely unnecessary wars we have spilling out all over the world.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 4, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> PTSD
> 
> We can't send hundreds of thousands of men on multiple tours to combat zones and not expect a large number to come back and be broken by the experience. This death, IMO, is just another casualty of the unjust, unlawful, and completely unnecessary wars we have spilling out all over the world.




This is mostly what happens with PTSD, that and a spiral of self destruction rather than killing others. Tragic and heart breaking.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...Afghanistan-hero-bear-horrors-war-longer.html


----------



## sfs982000 (Jan 4, 2012)

I know that there are programs that the military has for members suffering from PTSD and they are "screened" upon returning from deployments.  It's a step in the right direction considering when I came back from my deployment in 2007 there really wasn't any kind of assistance offered like it is now.  Not that I needed it myself, but I do know of a few folks that we lost because of it and I think that at least in a couple of those cases it could've been prevented.  
Now this particular case is a little different in my opinion since the member was discharged back in 2009 and has had a history of trouble, it makes me think that there were probably things going on mentally with this guy probably going back prior to his enlistment.  Military life can certainly help troubled folks get a fresh on life, but then again sometimes it doesn't.


----------



## MJS (Jan 4, 2012)

Hmm...I have to agree with ballen....I don't think that this guy was as crazy as he was making people think.  As for him not having any options left....why wouldn't he?  I'm sure he's not the first, nor the last, to have issues from the war, and I'm sure there are venues of help, but of course, just like any rehab, its up to the person to want that help and to seek it out.


----------



## Brian King (Jan 4, 2012)

PTSD is a diagnosable and treatable disorder. To paraphrase Grossman's "On Combat" lectures it and book (PTSD) is more like the flu than pregnancy, meaning that it has various measurable severity levels...touch of the flu vs full blown case of the flu as compared to pregnancy- you either are or you are not. It does not mean that each person diagnosed with the disorder is going to be immersing themselves into self destructive or harmful behaviors. The military and health organizations have many more screening tools and are much better at diagnosing PTSD than ever before so there will be more cases of it diagnosed. There are a number of criteria that have to be met for a true diagnosis rather than people attributing behavior to the disorder. People have a misconception about the disorder. This misconception is dangerous cause it can lead to misunderstandings and shame on the part of the sufferer of PTSD as well as their friends, family, and coworkers. 

The shooter in this case according to people around him was a jerk prior to the military, during his short time in the military, and after his time in the military. Being a military veteran while also being a jerk does not fall under the diagnosis for PTSD any more than his abundance of tattoos fall under the diagnosis for PTSD. Being a jerk led to his shooting of all those people but that doesn't make good headlines, support a political view, or clean up the mental situation so that people can easily explain the violence. 

That he had real issues is not doubted, that he engaged in self destructive behavior is seen in his photo's and reports of his behavior. Blaming military service is an excuse and a whitewash of other issues. It does a very real disservice to people and families that are working thru PTSD issues and those that might be seeking help. It does disservice to others that are trying to work thru issues that are not PTSD but might have some symptoms in common with the disorder, but will not seek professional help because their self diagnosed disorder has a stigma attached to it, rendering them left on their own trying to treat a disorder that they do not have while not treating an issue that they do have. 

Another article on the shooter along with a radio interview. Interesting
http://mynorthwest.com/11/603603/Cops-Veteran-who-killed-park-ranger-didnt-have-PTSD

There are many lessons to be learned from these incidents (the shooting of four at the party in Skyway and the shooting death of the Park Ranger) Making a victim of the shooter is not one of them. Doing so is a mistake in my opinion that robs valuable lessons akin to someone burning books to prove a point.

Regards
Brian King


----------



## elder999 (Jan 4, 2012)

As I said, we'll be seeing more of this-it's not simply "PTSD," though that may be a factor.

It's a cultural issue, though.



> WASHINGTON (AFPS, July 16, 2009) - Army officials have released the results of a study aimed at determining possible causes for a cluster of violent crimes that took place between 2005 and 2008 at Fort Carson, Colo.
> 
> During that time, 10 soldiers from a brigade combat team committed homicide or participated in homicides in and around Colorado. In the same timeframe, four soldiers from other Fort Carson units also committed homicide.
> 
> The crimes took place during a busy period of deployments for the brigade. In 2004, a brigade combat team deployed from Korea to Iraq. Upon completion of its tour, the Army permanently stationed the brigade at Fort Carson. Less than a year later, the unit deployed to Iraq for a 15-month tour.


----------



## Carol (Jan 4, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> This guy was kicked out of the military in 2009.  He wasn't crazy. He was smart enough to know what he did, and that he didn't want to go to jail.  He wasnt suicidal I suspect he would make the comments to his Girlfriend as a method of controlling her.  If he was suicidal he would have committed suicide not froze to death running from the police.  I have no pitty for him.
> 
> This is the real victim:
> 
> ...



Thank you for remembering who the real victim is here :asian:


----------



## Sukerkin (Jan 4, 2012)

Wise words, Brian - couldn't Rep you (stack full) so it has to be done in the full glare of the public.  Likewise regarding the compassionate words from Carol :bows:.


----------



## Wild Bill (Jan 5, 2012)

Brian King said:


> The shooter in this case according to people around him was a jerk prior to the military, during his short time in the military, and after his time in the military. Being a military veteran while also being a jerk does not fall under the diagnosis for PTSD any more than his abundance of tattoos fall under the diagnosis for PTSD. Being a jerk led to his shooting of all those people but that doesn't make good headlines, support a political view, or clean up the mental situation so that people can easily explain the violence.
> 
> That he had real issues is not doubted, that he engaged in self destructive behavior is seen in his photo's and reports of his behavior. Blaming military service is an excuse and a whitewash of other issues. It does a very real disservice to people and families that are working thru PTSD issues and those that might be seeking help. It does disservice to others that are trying to work thru issues that are not PTSD but might have some symptoms in common with the disorder, but will not seek professional help because their self diagnosed disorder has a stigma attached to it, rendering them left on their own trying to treat a disorder that they do not have while not treating an issue that they do have.
> 
> ...



I was military police for six years.  As much as I hate to admit it not everyone who wears the uniform is a hero.  I had to deal with rapists, child abusers, racists, gangsters, and thieves.  Most of the criminals I met were bad hats before they joined the military.  In fact cops were the biggest thieves when it came to equipment.  My roommate for the first 8 weeks of my enlistment left training with several hundred dollars worth of other people's cell phones and cds.  He also enjoyed rape porn.  

The overwelming majority of military veterans are good people that are'nt going on a killing spree any time soon.  Unfortunatley PTSD just gives the criminals another excuse for their bad behavior.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 5, 2012)

Wild Bill said:


> Unfortunatley PTSD just gives the criminals another excuse for their bad behavior.


And thats all it is.  A defense in court when they are caught. PTSD isnt going to cause someone to go become a criminal.  A criminal is already a criminal but PTSD sure sounds good to a jury when your caught later.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 6, 2012)

We've had very little behaviour here that we've had to deal with _towards others_ that can be put down to PTSD, most of those with it are self destructive or will smash up objects rather than people. We've had more 'angry' drunks since the lads came back and perhaps more fights. I say perhaps because it could be just because we have all regiments back at the same time and they fight as a leisure activity anyway. It's rarely serious. I expect divorces and separations are up probably for the reasons they've always been up, married at too young an age, the girls having different expectations of service life etc. etc Talking to a midwife the other day and births have gone right up too, not for the obvious reasons of the men being away but because many want to have something of them as a legacy if you like. 
Looking at statistics here the problems the service peple have if they do have them are homelessness, alcoholism, depression/mental illness and petty crime rather than any sort of killing sprees. Flashbacks seem to rate among the highest problems ex service people have and this seems to lead to depression and suicide rather than killing others. 
We've just had a new iniative put in here.
http://www.yorksandhumber.nhs.uk/news.php?id=361

Plus we have this
http://www.combatstress.org.uk/

I've put up both links because, just in case, someone somewhere reading might like to know about them.


----------



## granfire (Jan 6, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> And thats all it is.  A defense in court when they are caught. PTSD isnt going to cause someone to go become a criminal.  A criminal is already a criminal but PTSD sure sounds good to a jury when your caught later.




Well, everything with a good abreviation/agronym is good....

Like any bodily discomfort, once it's reduced to a few capital letters....it's a DISEASE now....

PTSD might be a new one, but finding excuses isn't...I think somewhere in the 70s they started with that....bad childhood etc.....


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 6, 2012)

Brian King said:


> Being a jerk led to his shooting of all those people but that doesn't make good headlines, support a political view, or clean up the mental situation so that people can easily explain the violence.



Actually, claiming that he was a "jerk" instead of even acknowledging the possibility this might be related to PTSD supports the dominant political position.  Many people assume we can send our soldiers off and bring them home and there will be no social/emotional consequences.  This idea is actively promoted by military industrial complex.  It allows people to easily explain away events like this so they can support the political views that promote the maintenance and expansion of global American hegemony.  Acknowledging the brutal social and emotional effects of war on people and actually questioning the policies that place so much stress on people is FAR more difficult then simply calling the "perp" a "jerk" and dropping it.  

In fact, I would say that the characterization of symptoms that are common with PTSD as "jerky" does far more harm to the people who need help because now it all gets explained away as defects in character.

It's time for American's to get real about the effects of these wars.  Elder999 was right, we're going to see a lot more of this.  Violence springs back on the people that perpetrate it...especially when you're on the wrong side of morality.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Actually, claiming that he was a "jerk" instead of even acknowledging the possibility this might be related to PTSD supports the dominant political position.



Well sorry but in this guys case even people that knew him before the military said he was a "jerk" and trouble maker. He wasnt even allowed to attend regular public high school he was sent to a school for problem kids.

And its people that look for any excuse for a behavior EXCEPT the obvious that sometimes people are just bad and it wouldnt matter how they were raised, what kind of drug they were addicted too, how many times there momma beat them, what neighborhood they grew up in, or if they went to war or not, they will ALWAYS be a bad person and giving them an excuse for that behavior causes others to follow the behavior.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 6, 2012)

Sometimes kids with troubled pasts can go to war and get a solid dose of PTSD. My uncle was a trouble maker and was given a choice, enlist or jail. Vietnam came and the PTSD killed him twenty years later.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Sometimes kids with troubled pasts can go to war and get a solid dose of PTSD. My uncle was a trouble maker and was given a choice, enlist or jail. Vietnam came and the PTSD killed him twenty years later.
> 
> Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk



PTSD had nothing to do with this guy.  He was a punk criminal who gunned down a Mother of 2 over a snow chain check point.  Then he was running for his life from the police and was not prepared for the weather and froze to death.  He used the "If you leave me Ill kill myself" as a control method on his girlfriend and I would venture he has been playing that line since he was a teen.  The fist one to bring up PTSD was his babys mother who was trying to use it as an excuse to win full custody.  PTSD is the new catch all in the court systems today.  Every military person that gets arrested thats one of the first defenses thats used in court.  Working drugs almost EVERY former or current military person I catch with drugs thats the first thing they tell me.  "Sir I have PTSD im trying to cope that what I have $10,000 worth of heroin in my trunk"  
Is there PTSD?  100% yes and its a serious problem that needs to be addressed but making excuses for every bad apple is not helping anyone.  Its causing a "Boy who cried wolf" effect and doing a serious disservice to people that really need help.

The only one Ive seen trying to Politicize this is you.  If it helps you make your anti-war argument but making a "victim" out of a thug then go for it but that dont fly with me.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 6, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> PTSD had nothing to do with this guy.  He was a punk criminal who gunned down a Mother of 2 over a snow chain check point.  Then he was running for his life from the police and was not prepared for the weather and froze to death.  He used the "If you leave me Ill kill myself" as a control method on his girlfriend and I would venture he has been playing that line since he was a teen.  The fist one to bring up PTSD was his babys mother who was trying to use it as an excuse to win full custody.  PTSD is the new catch all in the court systems today.  Every military person that gets arrested thats one of the first defenses thats used in court.  Working drugs almost EVERY former or current military person I catch with drugs thats the first thing they tell me.  "Sir I have PTSD im trying to cope that what I have $10,000 worth of heroin in my trunk"
> Is there PTSD?  100% yes and its a serious problem that needs to be addressed but making excuses for every bad apple is not helping anyone.  Its causing a "Boy who cried wolf" effect and doing a serious disservice to people that really need help.
> 
> The only one Ive seen trying to Politicize this is you.  If it helps you make your anti-war argument but making a "victim" out of a thug then go for it but that dont fly with me.



You are making a political argument by denying that this case might have had anything to do with PTSD, because IF it is related, the whole situation is a MUCH messier then "he was just a thug".


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> You are making a political argument by denying that this case might have had anything to do with PTSD, because IF it is related, the whole situation is a MUCH messier then "he was just a thug".



And your ignoring the REAL victims here and trying to make this guy a martyr for your political agenda.


----------



## jks9199 (Jan 6, 2012)

Sorry, but in this particular case, he is a thug.  And probably white supremacist affiliated, based on several of his tattoos.  Everything I've seen says that Barnes had serious problems way before he went into the military, that he had problems while in, and was discharged involuntarily.  Did he have some PTSD?  Probably.  Both ballen and I, as well as Drac, and lots of others on this forum have PTSD.  PTSD is not a binary condition; it's not yes or no.  It's a matter of degrees or a spectrum, kind of like burns. And it doesn't excuse or justify Barnes's actions here.  He murdered a mother of two who was simply doing her job, trying to ensure his safety.  I'm not hugely sympathetic, and quite honestly, I think he got off way too easy with an apparent death due to hypothermia.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> You are making a political argument by denying that this case might have had anything to do with PTSD, because IF it is related, the whole situation is a MUCH messier then "he was just a thug".


We are on the same side when it come to treating our troops coming home.  I agree PTSD is a serious issue and needs to be delt with.  I also dont think the current adminstration nor the last one is doing enough for our returning troops.  BUT in this case with this guy he was a scum bag long before he ever join the service and has been one long after he was kicked out in 09.  And by making him the poster child for our returning troops and saying see look what can happen is just wrong and will cause more troops to aviod seeking help because they dont want to be lumped in with this thug


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 6, 2012)

It's very possible that PTSD is the impetus that pushes a guy like this over the edge. Whenever violence is committed by people coming home from a war zone, its going to be an issue. It's one of the hidden costs of war...and always has been.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> It's very possible that PTSD is the impetus that pushes a guy like this over the edge. Whenever violence is committed by people coming home from a war zone, its going to be an issue. It's one of the hidden costs of war...and always has been.
> 
> Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


but you can't blame every crime an ex soilder commits on going to war


----------



## billc (Jan 7, 2012)

Big Don posted  a thread on this guy that debunks the PTSD aspect of the case.  This guy was a problem before the war, apparently did not even experience direct combat, not to say that being in the war zone isn't a stressor, and the reporting follows the typical veterans are either victims or perps.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Jan 8, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Sometimes kids with troubled pasts can go to war and get a solid dose of PTSD. My uncle was a trouble maker and was given a choice, enlist or jail. Vietnam came and the PTSD killed him twenty years later.
> 
> Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk



Sorry for your loss sir.  Regardless of the reason, it always hurts to lose a loved one.


----------

