# Japanese Iron Fan--Tessen



## Stac3y (Feb 17, 2015)

This is a good article about Japanese (not Chinese or Tai Chi) fan, or Tessen. I recently had someone tell me that a fan is only a slashing weapon; while that's mostly true in soft styles, it is not at all true of Tessen as used in Japan by Samurai. Unfortunately, I wasn't in an environment where I could spend time educating the gentleman. In Japan, the iron fan was used more for striking and jabbing, as well as joint locks. Open fans were used to strike with the edges (not just the tips of the staves), as shields, and to distract; closed ones for joint locks, strikes, and jabs. The staves were rarely sharpened. While the original iron fans were far heavier and more rigid than my kata fan, the kata fan, even when open, can deliver a painful strike. The hand position locks the fan open to make it more rigid in order to deliver a harder blow; also, the speed of the strike determines the power of the blow, just as the speed of the strike determines success in breaking boards.

The Daito Ryu Aiki Bujutsu Web Site - Tessen The Iron Fan


----------



## Chris Parker (Feb 18, 2015)

Hi Stacy,

That's an interesting article.  One thing I would mention, though, is that the Japanese fan is never used "open" in combative application… if you're using it that way, it's not tessenjutsu.


----------



## Stac3y (Feb 18, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Stacy,
> 
> That's an interesting article.  One thing I would mention, though, is that the Japanese fan is never used "open" in combative application… if you're using it that way, it's not tessenjutsu.


 
Can you elaborate? It's my understanding that, open, the fan is used to deflect/capture darts or other small projectiles, to mask movements, and to make "startle" strikes (rather than killing strikes) as a prelude to other techniques. Additionally, some of the non-opening, solid iron tessen are made in the style of semi-open fans.


----------



## KydeX (Feb 18, 2015)

We train tessenjutsu in my dojo, and I've never received any instruction in open fan use. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but my experience supports Chris' statement.


----------



## Chris Parker (Feb 20, 2015)

Stac3y said:


> Can you elaborate? It's my understanding that, open, the fan is used to deflect/capture darts or other small projectiles, to mask movements, and to make "startle" strikes (rather than killing strikes) as a prelude to other techniques. Additionally, some of the non-opening, solid iron tessen are made in the style of semi-open fans.



Hmm, there's not much to elaborate, really… the Japanese tessen is never used open… at all. The only times I've ever seen it used that way is in schools who honestly don't know what they're doing… no actual legit systems of tessenjutsu teach it that way.

I'd be interested to see what you're talking about in some of the "solid" fans being made as if semi-open… I've never seen that. The closest would be a gunsen… which isn't a "semi-open" fan, but a fan used more to signal troops on a battlefield. It's a completely different item, really.


----------



## Paul_D (Feb 24, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, there's not much to elaborate, really… the Japanese tessen is never used open… at all. The only times I've ever seen it used that way is in schools who honestly don't know what they're doing… no actual legit systems of tessenjutsu teach it that way.



You need to elaborate to back up your point, you can't just say these styles are wrong beascue you say they are.  All that is asked is that you give more information on how you have come to this conclusion.  It's a fair question.


----------



## Chris Parker (Feb 24, 2015)

Hmm… while I get where you're coming from, it's just not that simple, and can't really be elaborated as such. I could show clip after clip of Japanese (authentic, historical) systems using tessen… and show how none of them utilise an open fan. I could show training versions of the weapon, which are always "closed" fan types… I could show the actual combative versions, which are always "closed" fan shaped… and I could show many clips of fake "traditional Japanese" systems, modern karate systems (or similar) that have no basis in usage of tessen, and so on as the only examples of "Japanese" usage of tessen as an open fan… but none of that is elaborating, it's simply repeating the same point. And I can't show absolutely everything… so much of it isn't even available online… so it's not elaborating there, either.

In the end, I suppose, you're going to have to trust that I know what I'm talking about, and I'm giving you the correct information. If you insist, I can provide many, many links as described above… but if you aren't familiar enough with tessenjutsu, it won't necessarily do much for you… and if you're thinking my statements require backup (in other words, that what I'm saying isn't actually correct), then honestly, you aren't actually familiar enough with tessenjutsu in the first place.

In the end, I'm not saying they're wrong because I say they are… I'm saying that, in all of Japanese martial arts, tessenjutsu does not use an "open" fan. That's simply the reality. But if you want some links (not that they're definitive, or exhaustive evidence, or anything like elaboration), let me know. 

Of course, I'd be interested in knowing what systems of tessenjutsu you're familiar with… to get an idea of where you're coming from.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 24, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm… while I get where you're coming from, it's just not that simple, and can't really be elaborated as such. I could show clip after clip of Japanese (authentic, historical) systems using tessen… and show how none of them utilise an open fan. I could show training versions of the weapon, which are always "closed" fan types… I could show the actual combative versions, which are always "closed" fan shaped… and I could show many clips of fake "traditional Japanese" systems, modern karate systems (or similar) that have no basis in usage of tessen, and so on as the only examples of "Japanese" usage of tessen as an open fan… but none of that is elaborating, it's simply repeating the same point. And I can't show absolutely everything… so much of it isn't even available online… so it's not elaborating there, either.
> 
> In the end, I suppose, you're going to have to trust that I know what I'm talking about, and I'm giving you the correct information. If you insist, I can provide many, many links as described above… but if you aren't familiar enough with tessenjutsu, it won't necessarily do much for you… and if you're thinking my statements require backup (in other words, that what I'm saying isn't actually correct), then honestly, you aren't actually familiar enough with tessenjutsu in the first place.
> 
> ...



What could be helpful (for those who don't know you and who haven't studied tessenjutsu and therefore don't know whether to accept your statements at face value) is to explain what your background in the field is, i.e.:
I've read the following books (a, b, c) on the history of Japanese weaponry which include coverage of the tessen.
I've spoken with x, a noted scholar on the subject.
I've personally studied this particular koryu art which includes use of the tessen.
The major surviving arts which use the tessen are x, y, and z. I have friends who teach these arts and have discussed the use of the tessen with each of them.
etc, etc.

The problem with the "just trust me" approach is that (as you know) there are tons of people online making authoritative statements that are off-base or just flat out wrong. If someone just trusts _you_ without knowing specifically where you got your knowledge, they'll also just trust the next guy who comes along saying something with assurance.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 24, 2015)

The biggest problem with a discussion of this sort is the rule that 'the absence of proof is not proof of absence'. In other words, you cannot prove a negative. You can post 10,000 clips, links and sources, but it still doesn't prove anything.These things become a matter of faith, rather than fact.


----------



## jks9199 (Feb 24, 2015)

I haven't seen a lot of the iron fan.  The only places I've seen one used in an open fashion are Chinese movies and anime, for what that's worth.  The few times I've seen it in a form or something like that, it's been closed.  What little I've seen tends to use it along the same lines as a short stick, which seems to me that you'd need to have it closed for the relatively small and light posts to have much impact.  Don't know; there could be a legitimate approach using an open fan, I could imagine doing something with sharpened edges -- but I wonder how much support it would have to do much.


----------



## elder999 (Feb 24, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Stacy,
> 
> That's an interesting article.  One thing I would mention, though, is that the Japanese fan is never used "open" in combative application… if you're using it that way, it's not tessenjutsu.



I know that the Chinese fan is used "open" in combative application, but "never?" Really?





 *<opencanofwormsmode"ON">
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




*
Maybe you should have said, "_authentic_ Japanese fan?*" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*


----------



## Steve (Feb 24, 2015)

What do you guys think of this article on the Japanese Iron Fan?  http://www.pacificdojo.com/articles/tessen.pdf

It seems to be clear that the fan is primarily used closed, but does mention a few ways in which it was used open.   I also like that the article cites its sources at the end. 


> Folding fans were most often used in the closed position for a variety of martial applications. The tessen is primarily used for striking, poking and blocking but can also be employed for joint-locking, choking and trapping. The fan was occasionally used in the open position to thrust toward the eyes or if the ribs were metal to puncture at the ribs. Also the open fan could be brandished as a way to distract the opponent and draw their attack, much like a matador with a bull. However, most traditional tessenjutsu techniques use the fan in the closed position, which also lends well to using a solid tessen.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 24, 2015)

Jeff, Hatsumi Sensei as we all know is certainly not the norm in that he does things in the most interesting ways.  Chris is correct in that the tessen is generally used closed (that is how I have been trained) but........ I always say that there are no absolutes in the Martial Sciences! ;0  The moment you say some thing should never be done this way or never was will be the moment that examples will be coming to show just how wrong or mistaken you were.


----------



## elder999 (Feb 24, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Jeff, Hatsumi Sensei as we all know is certainly not the norm in that he does things in the most interesting ways.  Chris is correct in that the tessen is generally used closed (that is how I have been trained) but........ I always say that there are no absolutes in the Martial Sciences! ;0  The moment you say some thing should never be done this way or never was will be the moment that examples will be coming to show just how wrong or mistaken you were.



Oh, I know all that too well, Brian-I just enjoy taking the piss out of Chris.....(really, Chris. "Never??")

......he normally offers so few opportunities to do so! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






Steve said:


> What do you guys think of this article on the Japanese Iron Fan?  http://www.pacificdojo.com/articles/tessen.pdf
> 
> It seems to be clear that the fan is primarily used closed, but does mention a few ways in which it was used open.   I also like that the article cites its sources at the end.



I should point out (before Chris does!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)  that Danzan ryu is more of a hybrid American art-in fact, it might even be the _first_ hybrid American art. While Okazaki was a well trained Japanese jujutsu/judo practitioner, he studied many other arts in the melting pot that was Hawaii at that time, and various other arts went into its foundation. .....including Chinese ones....


----------



## tshadowchaser (Feb 25, 2015)

if the fan is used in a closed position in combat why use the fan why not use a stick, a knife, etc.  Was it used simply because it was carried for other uses?
As Stac3y has said I also have heard that the fan was used open as a distraction or to mask other movements  but I am far from knowledgeable on the subject and only am going on hear say over the years and what I have heard may have been about the Chinese use of the fan


----------



## Chris Parker (Feb 26, 2015)

Okay… this might take a bit… 



jks9199 said:


> I haven't seen a lot of the iron fan.  The only places I've seen one used in an open fashion are Chinese movies and anime, for what that's worth.



Yep, pretty much. As mentioned, it also turns up in modern iterations who also, largely, base their ideas of methodology on similar sources… for what it's worth… occasionally using somewhat interesting terminology to give the appearance of accuracy… 



jks9199 said:


> The few times I've seen it in a form or something like that, it's been closed.  What little I've seen tends to use it along the same lines as a short stick, which seems to me that you'd need to have it closed for the relatively small and light posts to have much impact.



Yep, pretty much. At the end here, I'll go back to Tony's post, and I'll look around to find some examples of tessenjutsu to post.



jks9199 said:


> Don't know; there could be a legitimate approach using an open fan, I could imagine doing something with sharpened edges -- but I wonder how much support it would have to do much.



Could it be done? Yeah, it could… but the questions isn't so much if it could be done, but whether or not it was the historic usage of the weapon.



elder999 said:


> I know that the Chinese fan is used "open" in combative application, but "never?" Really?
> 
> (clip removed to allow post to be posted… sorry, Elder!)
> *<opencanofwormsmode"ON">
> ...



Well… I'm not going to say everything I think about that clip… as I'm sure Brian wouldn't like that. But, that said, there are a few things to mention.

As Brian said, and you're well aware, Hatsumi is fairly well known for not exactly "playing by the rules"… and much of what he shows in that clip is, bluntly, his play, and him making stuff up, mixed in with more accurate information and presentation. For example, the "open" usage at the beginning (as a way of "signalling") is far closer to the historic usage of an open fan… there are, as I mentioned earlier, open fans used for signalling on the battlefield… as well as methods taught in some suijutsu systems that include writing messages/codes on an open fan to signal or convey an important piece of information. What Hatsumi was discussing was more in line with the "ninjutsu" side of things (there are signalling methods taught in Togakure Ryu, which can incorporate such devices as fans), which might be expected.

When it came to the "combative" usage… it was, to my mind, a mixed bag. There was some very good stuff in there (accurate, in a historical sense), particularly with Noguchi Sensei at about 2:10-2:40… but there was also a lot of, shall we say, "other" stuff in there as well. But, rather than delve too deeply there, one thing that might be important to remember is that, within the systems of the Bujinkan, there is no official teaching for tessenjutsu… it's commonly done as a variation on juttejutsu from Kukishinden Ryu (side note: another line of Kukishin Ryu does contain tessenjutsu… although they call it sensudori no gata [capturing with a fan methods], and it's largely a subdivision of the short staff work [hanbojutsu]… but that line is not in the Bujinkan). The Jinen Ryu, founded by Manaka Unsui as part of his Jinenkan organisation, does feature tessenjutsu… but it's his creation, based on the jutte and hanbo methods of the Kukishin Ryu, as it (as a weapon) was missing from the formal material in the Bujinkan that Manaka learnt. I have, of course, also seen senior members of the Bujinkan employ the fan "open", as Hatsumi does here… but that's them following what he's showing, really.

This isn't to say that Hatsumi hasn't learnt tessenjutsu himself… as mentioned, it's largely a variant of the jutte methods he holds… but the source needs to be understood. If it's Hatsumi coming up with creative ideas himself (which is the norm for him), that's one thing… and isn't therefore a part of a discussion of historic usage of tessen. Of course, it's interesting to note that Hatsumi has a book that covers tessenjutsu (as well as jutte and hanbo) from the early/mid 80's… the tessenjutsu in that book is fantastic, for the record… and is exactly as other systems teach it (always closed, primarily striking against weapon attacks, joint locks and chokes against unarmed attacks).


elder999 said:


> Maybe you should have said, "_authentic_ Japanese fan?*"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You know what, coulda sworn I did… hmm, let's have a look:

(from post 5): "… actual legit systems…" (from post 8): "… (authentic, historical) systems…"



Steve said:


> What do you guys think of this article on the Japanese Iron Fan?  http://www.pacificdojo.com/articles/tessen.pdf



Hmm… to be honest, not much. There are a number of issues with the information given there, such as the claims that the tessen wasn't associated with "any particular class"… it was. It was very much the carry of the bushi… other social groups used different fans, not "iron" ones (the "tes-" in "tessen" is "tetsu", meaning iron). There are other issues floating through it as well… not big enough to really make noise about, but there are some rather judicious uses of assumption throughout.



Steve said:


> It seems to be clear that the fan is primarily used closed, but does mention a few ways in which it was used open.   I also like that the article cites its sources at the end.



Yeah… except the sources listed don't lend much support in a few areas… the primary source seems to be from the authors teacher (understandable).



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Jeff, Hatsumi Sensei as we all know is certainly not the norm in that he does things in the most interesting ways.  Chris is correct in that the tessen is generally used closed (that is how I have been trained) but........ I always say that there are no absolutes in the Martial Sciences! ;0  The moment you say some thing should never be done this way or never was will be the moment that examples will be coming to show just how wrong or mistaken you were.



Oh, but there are absolutes… if you know where to look. I mean… Iai schools don't teach flamethrowers… which is one (rather extreme) example of an absolute… 



elder999 said:


> Oh, I know all that too well, Brian-I just enjoy taking the piss out of Chris.....(really, Chris. "Never??")
> 
> ......he normally offers so few opportunities to do so!



Ha, well, I do what I can… 



elder999 said:


> I should point out (before Chris does!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, that's the thing… looking into Okazaki's history, it gets rather… well… vague. The classical systems of jujutsu he is said to have studied don't seem to exist anywhere except in Okazaki's personal history… the Judo (well, the Kodokan rank, at least) is the most verifiable aspect of his training we actually have. There are a number of traits to Danzan Ryu that are said to be holdovers from "tradition", or are there as "Okazaki Sensei was very interested in preserving tradition" that don't really match much in the way of traditional systems, and are more in the lines of following what is felt to be traditional, rather than actually following any genuine traditions… but this is another discussion entirely.



tshadowchaser said:


> if the fan is used in a closed position in combat why use the fan why not use a stick, a knife, etc.  Was it used simply because it was carried for other uses?



That's a fairly big question, honestly… part of it came down to the fact that it was something you'd always have on you… even when you were in a social situation where you might be relieved of other weaponry (say, in a meeting with a senior lord). Part of it was a "badge of rank/status". Part of it was, unlike a knife/short blade, the tessen is far more suited to controlling tactics and methods… it was a less-obtrusive (and less obvious) weapon, as it was simply a part of "daily wear", so wouldn't be immediately seen as out of place to wear one, as opposed to other items… and so on. It should also be noted that the bulk of tessenjutsu was developed during the Edo period, which was a period of relative peace… it was a complement to jujutsu methods by and large, which means that it would deal with situations of "street" encounters, rather than "battlefield" in many cases. And, in that context, drawing a blade simply wasn't always appropriate.



tshadowchaser said:


> As Stac3y has said I also have heard that the fan was used open as a distraction or to mask other movements  but I am far from knowledgeable on the subject and only am going on hear say over the years and what I have heard may have been about the Chinese use of the fan



Yeah, that's largely a Chinese methodology, as has been noted a few times now.

Now, Tony… 



Tony Dismukes said:


> What could be helpful (for those who don't know you and who haven't studied tessenjutsu and therefore don't know whether to accept your statements at face value) is to explain what your background in the field is,


 
Okay… my background is a few decades of study of Japanese martial arts, focusing on the classical and historical, including exposure to a range of classical systems.



Tony Dismukes said:


> i.e.:
> I've read the following books (a, b, c) on the history of Japanese weaponry which include coverage of the tessen.



Honestly, I've lost track of all the books I've read over the years… but they're going to include Serge Mol's books, Don Cunningham's, multiple articles and accounts, as well as study into the curriculum and makeup of a number of still extant systems that teach the weapon (as well as many that don't).



Tony Dismukes said:


> I've spoken with x, a noted scholar on the subject.



Spoken with noted scholars? Not on this subject in particular… but I've had a large number of conversations with many Koryu practitioners, including those who's arts include tessen, on their arts (as well as general Japanese martial history and more). Some of these are authors in their own right, others are simply highly knowledgable persons who are deeply immersed in their arts. I won't name names here, without their permission, but they should be pretty easy to work out… 



Tony Dismukes said:


> I've personally studied this particular koryu art which includes use of the tessen.



I've been introduced to the tessen methods of a few ryu-ha, yeah… I'm familiar with the Jinen Ryu, the methods of Kukishin Ryu (sensudori no gata), Kiraku Ryu, Ikkaku Ryu, and so on.



Tony Dismukes said:


> The major surviving arts which use the tessen are x, y, and z. I have friends who teach these arts and have discussed the use of the tessen with each of them.
> etc, etc.



The major surviving arts include Kiraku Ryu (and I have discussed it with persons in contact with the membership, who train in related systems), Ikkaku Ryu (technically it's part of the Jutte methods, and is taught as an auxiliary system to Shinto Muso Ryu… this is probably the most "accessible" historical tessen usage around today), I've discussed the same ideas as found in Takeuchi Ryu (Takenouchi Santo Ryu contains tessenjutsu itself), it's associated with Masaki Ryu (as part of the Edomachigata Jutte Hojo Atsukaiyo, a collection of "police methods"). Then there are old arts that are not taught anymore, such as Yagyu Ryu (note: not Yagyu Shinkage Ryu), Echigo Ryu, and Miyake Shingan Ryu.

Some examples? Sure!





Kiraku Ryu Tessenjutsu





Ikkaku Ryu Juttejutsu (the tessen is brought in at about 1:04).

To contrast, there are not historical, accurate, or authentic systems of tessenjutsu:





Junsei Ryu, a modern, invented UK system. This is nothing like any Japanese art, being largely based on an incorrect idea of karate methodology and movie fantasy. 





This is just confusing… it's basically Seitei Iai waza (sword drawing) using a fan… and makes no sense at all.





Koga Ryu… need I say more? No trace of anything even close to Japanese methodology found here at all… no wabisabi, no nothing… 

Honestly, I could go on and on with bad examples… in fact, I had another linked, which is a modern take based on Aikido, but the new forum software limits the number of linked media per post… authentic tessen is actually fairly rare, fake, modern, invented, and fantasy forms are probably 90%+ of what you'll find… so I understand the confusion expressed in this thread.



Tony Dismukes said:


> The problem with the "just trust me" approach is that (as you know) there are tons of people online making authoritative statements that are off-base or just flat out wrong. If someone just trusts _you_ without knowing specifically where you got your knowledge, they'll also just trust the next guy who comes along saying something with assurance.



Sure… but it's not that simple either. In a number of cases, it comes down to figuring out who is going to have the best likelihood of accurate information. In this thread alone, almost everyone has said "I don't have much exposure… I haven't seen much… I don't know much about fan…" etc. I, on the other hand, am coming from a classical Japanese martial background, and am stating what it actually is. Sure, taking me on face value is something that shouldn't be done just because it's me… but weighing up who has the better likelihood of being correct is a different matter.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 26, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Sure… but it's not that simple either. In a number of cases, it comes down to figuring out who is going to have the best likelihood of accurate information. In this thread alone, almost everyone has said "I don't have much exposure… I haven't seen much… I don't know much about fan…" etc. I, on the other hand, am coming from a classical Japanese martial background, and am stating what it actually is. Sure, taking me on face value is something that shouldn't be done just because it's me… but weighing up who has the better likelihood of being correct is a different matter.



I agree, but I have some idea of your background. Paul D. (who originally asked for supporting info) is relatively new on this forum and has less reason to trust your authority on the subject.

I like the information you provided in this last comment. You give enough to go on, so that if someone else was to show up and say "In the traditional art of Wassamatta Ryu  the fan is always used open", then an interested bystander could take what you have given and go do his/her own research rather than having to take your word.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Feb 26, 2015)

Chris,  thanks for that post.  some good  information that explains much about the topic


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 26, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, but there are absolutes… if you know where to look. I mean… Iai schools don't teach flamethrowers… which is one (rather extreme) example of an absolute…



Well like you I have never seen flamethrowers being taught along with Iaido and would find that really weird.   However, I did witness a now defunct Muso Jikiden  group for a wee bit that taught iaido and then regularly practiced drawing the handgun with the same veracity.  That particular instructor was also firearms instructor.  So one could not say that iaido and firearms were never practiced together.  What Elder999 and I were pointing out is that "*never*" is a pretty big word to throw around. 

Love your post though and the videos you linked!


----------



## elder999 (Feb 26, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, well, I do what I can…


----------



## pgsmith (Mar 2, 2015)

Have to throw my two cents worth in ... My personal belief is that the open fan idea came about due to kenbu, traditional Japanese sword dancing. I know there are a couple of Japanese sword arts lines that still perform kenbu. I also know that there are a number of kenbu that utilize an open fan. It seems to me that at some point, people saw a kenbu performance and mistook it for kata, then went on to incorporate this "traditional Japanese fan art " into their practice.

  Here's an interesting article on traditional kenbu at EJMAS ... The Fan and the Sword


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 3, 2015)

Hey, Paul,

Yeah, I'm familiar with kenbu forms using open fans, however I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that's where these systems get their ideas on usage from… if I'm to be blunt, I'd be incredibly shocked that any of these non-traditional "traditional" systems teaching open fan use are even aware that kenbu exists, let alone be using it to base training and combative methods on. I mean, just look at the Junsei Ryu clip I posted… Taran's a lovely guy, by all accounts, but sadly rather clueless when it comes to pretty much anything to do with Japanese arts (despite the belief that what he's doing is helping "preserve the traditions"… how he can do that after having exactly no exposure to them, I have no idea…), traditional, martial, or anything else… and this is the most common form of "open fan" system around (in a "Japanese" sense, at least).


----------



## pgsmith (Mar 3, 2015)

Hey Chris,
  I'm saying that they most likely *aren't* aware that kenbu exists. I would bet that there are probably a number of kenbu videos available on the internet if you search for something like "Japanese fan" (I can't test that theory because I'm at work, no videos). To someone that has no idea that kenbu exists, this would look just like a traditional kata performed with a sword and an open fan. *That's* where I think they get the idea of using an open fan in Japanese arts from.

  Of course, that's just my theory. It appeals to me much more than the idea that people have invented stuff out of blank canvas just because they felt like it.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 3, 2015)

It is an interesting theory Paul.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 4, 2015)

pgsmith said:


> Hey Chris,
> I'm saying that they most likely *aren't* aware that kenbu exists. I would bet that there are probably a number of kenbu videos available on the internet if you search for something like "Japanese fan" (I can't test that theory because I'm at work, no videos). To someone that has no idea that kenbu exists, this would look just like a traditional kata performed with a sword and an open fan. *That's* where I think they get the idea of using an open fan in Japanese arts from.
> 
> Of course, that's just my theory. It appeals to me much more than the idea that people have invented stuff out of blank canvas just because they felt like it.



Yeah… again, I get where you're coming from, but I don't see it myself. For one thing, most of these systems' usage of their take on tessen predate the major advent of the internet… for another, there really isn't much seen online for kenbu, particularly if you're looking for fan methods. I agree that it can look a lot like a kata, especially if you're only familiar with Okinawan/karate methods… however, I honestly don't think there was any exposure to kenbu at all, understood or otherwise.


----------



## pgsmith (Mar 6, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah… again, I get where you're coming from, but I don't see it myself. For one thing, most of these systems' usage of their take on tessen predate the major advent of the internet… for another, there really isn't much seen online for kenbu, particularly if you're looking for fan methods. I agree that it can look a lot like a kata, especially if you're only familiar with Okinawan/karate methods… however, I honestly don't think there was any exposure to kenbu at all, understood or otherwise.


  You could be correct as I have no idea when any of these groups began implementing the use of open fans in their arts. However, I find it hard to believe that these groups that are now teaching that the Japanese traditionally used an open fan in either an offensive or defensive manner simply all made it up.

  While it could be due to Chinese influences, I don't see how that would allow them to transpose that onto the traditional Japanese arts. It seems to me that they got the idea that fans were used this way traditionally in Japan from somewhere, and kenbu is the only thing I can think of that would allow them to make that connection.

  Where do you suppose the connection between open fans and traditional Japanese arts came from, since it doesn't happen within any of the arts that I am familiar with?


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 14, 2015)

Hey Paul,

Sorry, been away for a bit… 

Honestly, I really do genuinely think that they just made up what they thought it was meant to be like, without any actual research, checking, cross-referencing, or anything of the like. Realistically, the path is quite simple… they see a fan… hear that it's meant to be a "weapon"… realise that a fan is designed to open (which allows it to function as a fan), so try to come up with a way to use it "open". There really doesn't need to be any further development of the idea… in fact, not using it open would make less sense in that construct, as it would be logical to think that the reason you use a fan, as opposed to just a short stick, is because it opens. After all, there isn't really a connection between open fans and traditional Japanese arts… there's a connection between open fans and pseudo-traditional pseudo-Japanese arts… which is quite different.


----------

