# Plum flower symbol



## Jens (Oct 24, 2017)

what's group of footwork patterns known as _Mui Fa Jong, _tactics, angles of attack and counter attack does the wing chun Plum Flower symbol teach in your linage?   
Why is this symbol so paramount to attaining a more profound understanding of wing chun?


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## wckf92 (Oct 26, 2017)

Hi Jens.
I suppose it depends on which pattern MFJ you're talking about...
Cool topic though!


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## Jens (Oct 26, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Hi Jens.
> I suppose it depends on which pattern MFJ you're talking about...
> Cool topic though!


Some branches of wing chun use a 6 post configuration while others use a 5 posts configuration. which one do you use in your particular linage and why?


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## wckf92 (Oct 26, 2017)

Jens said:


> Some branches of wing chun use a 6 post configuration while others use a 5 posts configuration. which one do you use in your particular linage and why?


Mui fa in wc (as far as I know) ONLY refers to the 6 post version.


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## KPM (Oct 27, 2017)

Jens said:


> what's group of footwork patterns known as _Mui Fa Jong, _tactics, angles of attack and counter attack does the wing chun Plum Flower symbol teach in your linage?
> Why is this symbol so paramount to attaining a more profound understanding of wing chun?



I learned the stepping pattern for the 6 post configuration in the Augustine Fong lineage many many years ago.   The ironic thing is that if you are actually up on top of the posts if you try to stay on your heels you will fall on your backside!  So even those lineages that pivot on the heels and keep the weight back near the heel in their footwork often end up using the K1 point when they step up onto the posts!     That might be an indication of how the Wing Chun mechanic was originally designed.....or not. 

I haven't seen any mention or use of the Plum Blossom Posts or pattern in Pin Sun Wing Chun.   I'm sure a lot of the footwork patterns and angling are in Pin Sun, but I haven't seen the Mui Fa Jong as a specific training method in Pin Sun.  It would be interesting to know if it is in Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun.

But it hasn't been something I have thought about or trained for a very long time. 

So Jens, what do you see the Mui Fa Jong teaching?  What is the theory for how it is used in fighting?


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## ShortBridge (Oct 27, 2017)

The 5 post version is a shamrock, not a plum blossom. They use it in Irish bare knuckles pugilism, I think, but not Wing Chun.


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## geezer (Oct 27, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> The 5 post version is a shamrock, not a plum blossom. They use it in Irish bare knuckles pugilism, I think, but not Wing Chun.



Actually, in Leung Ting's book on the wooden dummy (the little blue one), he goes into the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern.

I did chalk out the six point pattern under my dummy and it was sort helpful. But sometimes I think people work too hard at trying to fit their technique to complex, theoretical patterns. Sometimes it's a stretch and messes with functionality.

Personally, I think some people get too obsessed with abstract patterns over simple, practical footwork that works in relation to an opponent.

Now can anybody explain the relationship of the three-leaf shamrock pattern and the four-leaf pattern in Irish boxing ?


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## ShortBridge (Oct 27, 2017)

I don't have tape or lines on the floor around the dummy in my school because my students are different shapes and sizes. Because the dummy is one size and doesn't move, I want my students to step to the correct range for them rather than the positons that I step to. I don't want their taan sao (for example) to be either flat or collapsed because they were trying to conform to an exact position.


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## KPM (Oct 27, 2017)

I'm wondering if the Plum Blossom pattern might be useful on a rather basic level simply by breaking out parts of it to practice footwork patterns.....much like the Langkha patterns in used in Silat.


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## Danny T (Oct 27, 2017)

I think the major reason for the Mui Fa Jong training is to increase balance and leg strength. My understanding is as the practitioner became proficient they would begin working on taller as well as smaller diameter poles. The taller poles create a stronger psychological pressure of being more dangerous and the smaller diameter poles actually make it more difficult.


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## Jens (Oct 27, 2017)

KPM said:


> So Jens, what do you see the Mui Fa Jong teaching?  What is the theory for how it is used in fighting?



In addition to what's have already been mentioned above about improving balance and leg strength. Tactically the plum blossom posts are arranged in a very specific order so you can never step in a direct straight line, this means that with every step there will always be an adjustment in both distance as well as facing angle in relation to the opponent's line of attack. All wing chun offensive footwork regardless of wck linage comes directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping. Plum blossom stepping is a like a road mad which gives you a direct route of how to get to the opponent while remaining off his attacking line.
Then there is the wing chun baat gwa stepping which is more counter offensive in nature and comprises the other 50% of the art's footwork. Like two sides of the same coin wing chun footwork have both an offensive or counter offensive nature (yin/yang), but never purely defensive.
When these two types of stepping are merged, it allows for infinite possibilities of stepping and angular movements 360 degrees. That's when the wing chun footwork becomes fully alive and flowing in the moment, exactly how the art was intended to be applied.



geezer said:


> Actually, in Leung Ting's book on the wooden dummy (the little blue one), he goes into the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern.



What's the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern?


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## wckf92 (Oct 27, 2017)

Jens said:


> In addition to what's have already been mentioned above about improving balance and leg strength. Tactically the plum blossom posts are arranged in a very specific order so you can never step in a direct straight line, this means that with every step there will always be an adjustment in both distance as well as facing angle in relation to the opponent's line of attack. All wing chun offensive footwork regardless of wck linage comes directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping. Plum blossom stepping is a like a road mad which gives you a direct route of how to get to the opponent while remaining off his attacking line.
> Then there is the wing chun baat gwa stepping which is more counter offensive in nature and comprises the other 50% of the art's footwork. Like two sides of the same coin wing chun footwork have both an offensive or counter offensive nature (yin/yang), but never purely defensive.
> When these two types of stepping are merged, it allows for infinite possibilities of stepping and angular movements. That's when the wing chun footwork becomes fully alive and flowing in the moment which was how the art was intended to be applied.



Good post Jens


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2017)

Jens said:


>


One of my favor footwork pattern is to line up my back foot with my opponent's feet. I then step in my leading foot and enter. Without knowing where my opponent's feet position are, I can't do that.

The concern of the "plum blossom posts" training is there is no reference to your opponent's feet position. The way you will move should depend on where your opponent's feet location is.

You can obtain the same training (even better) by marking

- several X marks on the ground as your feet current position and you possible future feet position.
- R as your opponent's right foot position and L as your opponent's left foot position.

Depending on your opponent's feet position, you can

1. avoid crossing your legs,
2. avoid moving into your opponent's back hand striking range.
3. obtain lining up your back foot with your opponent's feet.
4. obtain stepping in between your opponent's feet.
5. ...


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## DanT (Oct 27, 2017)

Danny T said:


> I think the major reason for the Mui Fa Jong training is to increase balance and leg strength. My understanding is as the practitioner became proficient they would begin working on taller as well as smaller diameter poles. The taller poles create a stronger psychological pressure of being more dangerous and the smaller diameter poles actually make it more difficult.


This. For example, at a certain level, students train on 6 ft bamboo poles that are 2 inches in diameter. Very difficult indeed.


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## wckf92 (Oct 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One of my favor footwork pattern is to line up my back foot with my opponent's feet. I then step in my leading foot and enter. Without knowing where my opponent's feet position are, I can't do that.
> 
> The concern of the "plum blossom posts" training is there is no reference to your opponent's feet position. The way you will move should depend on where your opponent's feet location is.
> 
> ...



Interesting perspective....


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## geezer (Oct 27, 2017)

DanT said:


> This. For example, at a certain level, students train on 6 ft bamboo poles that are 2 inches in diameter. Very difficult indeed.



That would indeed be extremely difficult, so difficult in fact, that only very physically gifted students could master the skill ...and even then only after investing a lot of hours of practice. 

Do you really believe that such an investment in time (at the expense of other training) would pay off in practical fighting skill?


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## geezer (Oct 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> ...The concern of the "plum blossom posts" training is there is no reference to your opponent's feet position. The way you will move should depend on where your opponent's feet location is.



This is a good point.


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## geezer (Oct 27, 2017)

Jens said:


> *...All wing chun offensive footwork regardless of wck linage *comes directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping.



I do not believe this is true of my lineage. Our fundamental footwork is a back-weighted "dragging step" and I don't see that working on the plum blossom piles to be particularly helpful in reinforcing our foundational footwork. I believe it is a probably relic of earlier forms of southern kung fu training and accordingly is also used in styles other than Wing Chun. 



Jens said:


> ...When these two types of stepping are merged, it allows for infinite possibilities of stepping and angular movements 360 degrees. That's when the wing chun footwork becomes fully alive and flowing in the moment, exactly how the art was intended to be applied.



You can have infinite possibilities and infinite angles with very simple stepping. My old sifu used to say that the Wing Chun man is like the king on the chess board. His steps are short, but can move in any direction at will. I'd say the same is true of western boxers.


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## Jens (Oct 28, 2017)

geezer said:


> I do not believe this is true of my lineage. Our fundamental footwork is a back-weighted "dragging step" and I don't see that working on the plum blossom piles to be particularly helpful in reinforcing our foundational footwork. I believe it is a probably relic of earlier forms of southern kung fu training and accordingly is also used in styles other than Wing Chun.



When I said "All wing chun offensive footwork regardless of wck linage comes directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping." I meant the root of all wing chun offensive footwork came directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping, of course your old sifu may have modified the footwork to suit his particular needs which is reflected by his experience.



geezer said:


> Actually, in Leung Ting's book on the wooden dummy (the little blue one), he goes into the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern.



What's the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 28, 2017)

Jens said:


> your old sifu may have modified the footwork to suit his particular needs which is reflected by his experience.


Agree! You may like to move toward your opponent's

- side door (blind side) to avoid his back hand striking.
- front door to crash his rooting (入马 Ru Ma).


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## geezer (Oct 28, 2017)

Jens said:


> ...What's the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern?



OK, now that I'm home I was able to dig out the little book _116 Wooden Dummy Techniques _by Leung Ting and found the reference to the 6-dot _plum flower pattern_ and the _5-dot pattern_.

I must preface what follows by saying that didn't pay too much attention to this before, since the book was published in 2010 and I studied with Leung Ting much earlier, from 1980 through the early 90s, and we never discussed this in person. And, as I mentioned previously, I don't find either pattern that relevant to what I train these days.

And lastly, should I want to refer to_ a book_ on the subject, I prefer the 116 movement dummy presentation in Leung Ting's earlier gold colored book featuring Yip Chun as the supposed author. Besides, both books deliberately omit or alter several movements from the privately taught version of the form, basically as a "tell" to distinguish "real" students from those who learned from books, posters, and videos.

At any rate, on pages 28-31 of his introductory chapter, _History and Concept_, LT closes with a section titled,_ Misunderstanding_ _Mui-fa and Mui-fa Chong Bo._ In this passage, he first distinguishes between the _six-point pattern_ based on the plum flower symbol and the _five-dot pattern_ often used for the upright posts.

He then goes into a discussion of the confusions arising due to the use of different Chinese characters with the same pronunciation describing these two patterns. As far as the stepping goes, he concludes by superimposing the two patterns to show how the combined pattern relates to stepping. Of note, three of the dots (the center and bottom two) in the _five-dot pattern_ align with the lower portion of the _plum-flower pattern _so the stepping patterns, on the _mook yang chong_ at least, are unaffected. The top two dots in the five dot pattern do not apply to the _mook yang chong _(at least the Yip Man wall-mounted chong) since they would lie _behind_ the chong where you cannot step. LT's discussion here does not address the stepping-patterns on top of the upright posts, except to discount the fantasy that people would use WC/WT to actually fight on top of posts.

Personally, I found the written explanation in translation to be confusing at best, and furthermore, knowing how my old sifu would leave out bits and pieces of information from his books, I would certainly not alter my training on the basis of this ...at least unless I were able to discuss it with him in person -- something no longer possible for me to do.

On the other hand, you are welcome to check out the passage for yourself if you wish, as I believe the book is still in print. Personally, I wouldn't bother. Anyway, I hope this helps.


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## geezer (Oct 28, 2017)

_Fighting _on posts is not realistic... but balance training doing _chi sau_ might be fun. These guys seem to be enjoying themselves:






Actually I prefer this:






We've done some stuff like _chi-sau_ while standing on 2 x 4s laid sideways on the ground, etc. Challenges balance, but not great for stepping, angling and so forth. Still, variety livens up training, right?


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## DanT (Oct 28, 2017)

geezer said:


> That would indeed be extremely difficult, so difficult in fact, that only very physically gifted students could master the skill ...and even then only after investing a lot of hours of practice.
> 
> Do you really believe that such an investment in time (at the expense of other training) would pay off in practical fighting skill?


For students who only train a few hours a week : no. 

For students who train full time: yes.


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## DanT (Oct 28, 2017)

geezer said:


> _Fighting _on posts is not realistic... but balance training doing _chi sau_ might be fun. These guys seem to be enjoying themselves:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like Chi Saoing with my back to a wall, especially while blindfolded. We also do Chi Sao on a 4 x 4 wooden table.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 28, 2017)

DanT said:


> For students who only train a few hours a week : no.
> 
> For students who train full time: yes.



When my son was younger he went through a phase where he watched lion dance world championships on YouTube every day. What they are able to do on tall, unstable poles seems impossible, but they can certainly do it.

I can't imagine how this type of training COULDN'T help you. That doesn't make it necessary or original to whatever your style is or secret/advanced/other. But, how could it not make you better at balance, rooting, and body control?


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## DanT (Oct 28, 2017)

Wing


ShortBridge said:


> When my son was younger he went through a phase where he watched lion dance world championships on YouTube every day. What they are able to do on tall, unstable poles seems impossible, but they can certainly do it.
> 
> I can't imagine how this type of training COULDN'T help you. That doesn't make it necessary or original to whatever your style is or secret/advanced/other. But, how could it not make you better at balance, rooting, and body control?


I agree, but at the same time for a lot of students there's only x number of hours a week for them to practice, and thus more important things for them to work on.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 28, 2017)

DanT said:


> Wing
> 
> I agree, but at the same time for a lot of students there's only x number of hours a week for them to practice, and thus more important things for them to work on.



Of course. We all have to prioritize what we work on and I don't know anyone dedicated who doesn't feel like they aren't getting to something on their list as quickly as they would like.


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## geezer (Oct 28, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> I can't imagine how this type of training COULDN'T help you. That doesn't make it necessary or original to whatever your style is or secret/advanced/other. But, how could it not make you better at balance, rooting, and body control?



I made the comment Dan was responding to (as quoted in your post above) regarding training steps on 6-foot tall, 2 inch wide, flexible bamboo poles. 

If you are training to be a _circus acrobat_, I can see investing the time and taking the considerable physical risk to do that. If you are training to be a _fighter_, or perhaps just an ordinary guy training for love of the art and for self defense, your time would be much better spent using other methods. Maybe like what Alan Orr was demonstrating in the clip above.


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## Jens (Oct 28, 2017)

geezer said:


> on pages 28-31 of his introductory chapter, _History and Concept_, LT closes with a section titled,_ Misunderstanding_ _Mui-fa and Mui-fa Chong Bo._ In this passage, he first distinguishes between the _six-point pattern_ based on the plum flower symbol and the _five-dot pattern_ often used for the upright posts.
> 
> He then goes into a discussion of the confusions arising due to the use of different Chinese characters with the same pronunciation describing these two patterns. As far as the stepping goes, he concludes by superimposing the two patterns to show how the combined pattern relates to stepping. Of note, three of the dots (the center and bottom two) in the _five-dot pattern_ align with the lower portion of the _plum-flower pattern _so the stepping patterns, on the _mook yang chong_ at least, are unaffected. The top two dots in the five dot pattern do not apply to the _mook yang chong _(at least the Yip Man wall-mounted chong) since they would lie _behind_ the chong where you cannot step. LT's discussion here does not address the stepping-patterns on top of the upright posts, except to discount the fantasy that people would use WC/WT to actually fight on top of posts.



thanks for the reply geezer! 
Would you say these two videos of your old sifu covers everything written in his book and then some?


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## DanT (Oct 28, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Of course. We all have to prioritize what we work on and I don't know anyone dedicated who doesn't feel like they aren't getting to something on their list as quickly as they would like.


Exactly. Patience and communication are key however.


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## DanT (Oct 28, 2017)

geezer said:


> I made the comment Dan was responding to (as quoted in your post above) regarding training steps on 6-foot tall, 2 inch wide, flexible bamboo poles.
> 
> If you are training to be a _circus acrobat_, I can see investing the time and taking the considerable physical risk to do that. If you are training to be a _fighter_, or perhaps just an ordinary guy training for love of the art and for self defense, your time would be much better spent using other methods. Maybe like what Alan Orr was demonstrating in the clip above.


You're right, and that's why I'll only teach it to high level full time students who are interested.


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## geezer (Oct 28, 2017)

Jens said:


> thanks for the reply geezer!
> Would you say these two videos of your old sifu covers everything written in his book and then some?



Yes that's the same material. I'd forgotten that Fernandez had posted a video of it.


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## geezer (Oct 28, 2017)

DanT said:


> You're right, and that's why I'll only teach it to high level full time students who are interested.



That wouldn't be me. 

My ankles, knees, and back are already suffering from old injuries. A couple of years ago, I actually started riding a _unicycle_ again (like I did back as a teenager) just to keep up my balance and core, but I had to set it aside because I found the risk of re-injuring myself greater than the benefits. So there goes my second career as a circus clown. 

Guess I could take up_ juggling _though. 

BTW, have you ever seen "contact juggling"? Now that might really help your chi-sau.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 28, 2017)

geezer said:


> Do you really believe that such an investment in time (at the expense of other training) would pay off in practical fighting skill?


The "plum flower posts" is too abstract and trying to develop too many things. I like to develop 1 footwork at a time.

When I train a particular footwork, I will mark my

- opponent's feet position as (A, B).
- current feet position as (X, Y).
- next feet position as (X', Y').

I will then move my feet from

1. X -> X',
2. Y -> Y',
3. X' -> X,
4. Y' -> Y.

Repeat 1 - 4. The reason that I also want to train how to move back to the original feet position is in case I feel dangerous and need to recover.


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## Jens (Oct 28, 2017)

The plum flower posts training unlocks the offensive stepping strategy of all wing chun, but of course one can always de-construct one footwork at a time to perfect the mechanics, but in actual fighting it must be used dynamicly and alive with fluidity by transitioning from one position into another seamlessly


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## geezer (Oct 29, 2017)

Jens said:


> The plum flower posts training unlocks the offensive stepping strategy of *all* wing chun...



I'm really not sure how _this_ would work, especially since different lineages have significantly different ideas as to how to apply stances and stepping. As for training footwork, there are also the forms ...especially the _mook yang jong _for angling and pressing forward, and also (in my lineage) a great deal of offensive (and defensive) footwork in _chi-sau_ -- including advancing, retreating, turning, off-lining and angling against a moving partner.

Another, simpler but very "alive" footwork drill is an exercise we do is a game we call "stance sparring" in which you square off with an opponent, each with their arms chambered and out of the way. Then you step in and use only your stepping and stances to claim center and control your _resisting _opponent who is trying to do the same to you.

By comparison, working on the plum-flower piles, for all its difficulty, strikes me as being a bit ...er ... _stilted_.


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## DanT (Oct 29, 2017)

In my opinion, the stepping taught in Wing Chun (Arrow Step, turning stance, huen bo, bik bo, etc) are more beginner exercises teaching you how to control your centre and balance. Once you master these basic methods of stepping, you can step however you want because you've learned to control your centre. Actually in my Wing Chun, we only have 4 simple rules for stepping and footwork:

-Keep the weight 50-50
-Keep the heels down
-Don't cross your legs 
-Stay square or close to square

Beginner students follow a more rigid footwork structure because they're still learning to control their centre. Advanced students footwork is free and dynamic. Although you still might see the shapes of beginner footwork, there is a lot more freedom in movement.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2017)

DanT said:


> -Stay square or close to square.


Do you think that all WC guys should fight "square"? IMO, the disadvantage can be more than the advantage.


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## DanT (Oct 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you think that all WC guys should fight "square"? IMO, the disadvantage can be more than the advantage.


It's not a matter of should or not. For some Wing Chun lineages they fight side on, but that's because they have a different strategy.

For my Wing Chun, being fairly square presents the advantage of being able to pin and trap easier. It's hard to pin and trap when turned to the side.

We certainly do turn to the side to avoid and absorb strikes, as well as to augment power.

Standing square in front of your opponent has its issues, however since we aim for controlling the outside gate, those issues become irrelevant once controlling the outside gate.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2017)

DanT said:


> being fairly square presents the advantage of being able to pin and trap easier. It's hard to pin and trap when turned to the side.


You can pin and trap with "cross stance" too. It has both the side stance and square stance advantage. It doesn't have the square stance dis-advantage.


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## DanT (Oct 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can pin and trap with "cross stance" too. It has both the side stance and square stance advantage. It doesn't have the square stance dis-advantage.


I'm sure you could, but it limits you to pining and trapping with your lead arm.

I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just not my Wing Chun way.

Any typical disadvantage of the square stance is irrelevant once you've already pinned or trapped the opponents arm and are on the outside gate.

Not sure what the video was demonstrating.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2017)

DanT said:


> Not sure what the video was demonstrating.


That clip shows how to solve the side stance 1 long arm and 1 short arm issue.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 29, 2017)

I'm with DanT on this one. It's not an issue to be solved, it's how our system works. It's not the only way to fight, but it is how our system works. 

Being square, doesn't mean the same thing as walking straight in on someone, it may just not be translating to text.


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## Jens (Oct 29, 2017)

geezer said:


> I'm really not sure how _this_ would work, especially since different lineages have significantly different ideas as to how to apply stances and stepping. As for training footwork, there are also the forms ...especially the _mook yang jong _for angling and pressing forward, and also (in my lineage) a great deal of offensive (and defensive) footwork in _chi-sau_ -- including advancing, retreating, turning, off-lining and angling against a moving partner.
> 
> Another, simpler but very "alive" footwork drill is an exercise we do is a game we call "stance sparring" in which you square off with an opponent, each with their arms chambered and out of the way. Then you step in and use only your stepping and stances to claim center and control your _resisting _opponent who is trying to do the same to you.
> 
> By comparison, working on the plum-flower piles, for all its difficulty, strikes me as being a bit ...er ... _stilted_.



All the stances, turning, stepping, pressing forward, and angling footwork found in the dummy as well as the other forms in the wing chun system are just pieces of the complete footwork which is found in the plum flower posts training . Each of the forms have a specific theme, and therefore only focus on a small section of the complete footwork, in order to perfect the footwork movement section by section at a time. When you integrate all those smaller footwork sections, you end up with the complete picture of footwork found within wing chun only in the plum blossom posts training. It's how our system's footwork was intended to function according to what it was originally design to do.


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## geezer (Oct 29, 2017)

Jens said:


> All the stances, turning, stepping, pressing forward, and angling footwork found in the dummy as well as the other forms in the wing chun system are just pieces of the complete footwork which is found in the plum flower posts training . Each of the forms have a specific theme, and therefore only focus on a small section of the complete footwork, in order to perfect the footwork movement section by section at a time. When you integrate all those smaller footwork sections, you end up with the complete picture of footwork found within wing chun only in the plum blossom posts training. It's how our system's footwork was intended to function according to what it was originally design to do.



I'm not saying that the Plum Blossom Piles training you do might not be comprehensive, and pull together stances and steps from the other forms, since I don't know this form. It is not part of the training in my lineage. In fact the only real_ forms_ I've seen demonstrated on the Plum Blossom Piles are from other styles, and use footwork that is not compatible with the footwork of my branch.

So from my perspective, your claim that this Plum Flower Piles form is the original and complete footwork form for _all Wing Chun_ seems to be a pretty bold assertion. What evidence do you have to support this claim?


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## Jens (Oct 29, 2017)

geezer said:


> I'm not saying that the Plum Blossom Piles training you do might not be comprehensive, and pull together stances and steps from the other forms, since I don't know this form. It is not part of the training in my lineage. In fact the only real_ forms_ I've seen demonstrated on the Plum Blossom Piles are from other styles, and use footwork that is not compatible with the footwork of my branch.
> 
> So from my perspective, your claim that this Plum Flower Piles form is the original and complete footwork form for _all Wing Chun_ seems to be a pretty bold assertion. What evidence do you have to support this claim?



I never said the plum flower posts training is a fixed form, It's just a device which all linage of wing chun have to train free style stepping with correct positioning and facing angle. In the above sifu Fernandez videos that I posted, Leung Ting (your old sifu) is explaining it's concept, so it's definitely part of your line as well.


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## geezer (Oct 29, 2017)

Jens said:


> I never said the plum flower posts training is a fixed form, It's just a device which all linage of wing chun have to train free style stepping with correct positioning and facing angle. In the above sifu Fernandez videos that I posted, Leung Ting (your old sifu) is explaining it's concept, so it's definitely part of your line as well.



OK, I get your point. Yes, this much _is_ part of our tradition. But it is not a part of the fundamental training. More like an adjunct I'd suppose. If I ever reach "master" level I'll let you know more. But, don't hold your breath, because at the rate I'm progressing, that's not likely to happen in this lifetime.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2017)

DanT said:


> Any typical disadvantage of the square stance is irrelevant once you've already pinned or trapped the opponents arm and are on the outside gate.


The PRO and CON of a stance depends on the distance.

When you are in the

- punching range, since both of your hands can have the same reach, of course the square stance will have advantage over the side stance.
- kicking range, since your hands can't reach to your opponent's body, the square stance that your arms have equal reach won't give you any advantage.

So in "kicking range" we have to compare which stance will have better defense against kick or sweep. IMO. the side stance has advantage over square stance for that purpose.


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## jlq (Oct 30, 2017)

The "Mui Fa" pattern doesn't seem to be a pattern which is particularly emphasized by Wing Chun people in Mainland, for example why many use it in HK, no school in Gongjaau nor Fatsaan seem to use it as a logo...

As far as Plum Flower stepping and the PF posts and whether they as essential and integral to Wing Chun as Jens said is an interesting question.

Personally, I think not.

For various reasons...

First question is if YM actually taught this to his students - or if it was something gis students implemented. Here it would be very illuminating to consult his senior students (or rather senior grandstudents  ) such as Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, Tsui Shun Tien, Wong Shun Leung, etc. - i.e. early students of his.

As far as I understood it from asking Gwok Fu's son about it, there is no Mui Fa pattern used in the Wing Chun YM taught him in the early 1940s. The talk about the Baat Gwa as extremely important important and is used to explain many of the system's strategies and techniques. The Mui Fa pattern and stepping as explained by Leung Ting doesn't fit the footwork and stepping strategy they employ. 

Another thing - many years ago Leung Ting at a seminar, taught something he called "Lok Yip Bou" (falling leaf step) which basically says that on should place the feet wherever the situation requires and as such it is outside of the scope of the Mui Fa pattern he explains in the video you linked to (and his book).
So this pattern does not contain all stepping/footwork strategies of Wing Chun, at least according to Leung Ting's teachings.

Do other branches of Wing Chun have Plum Flower footwork? YKS/SN type Wing Chun - or at least the school/branch I trained in for 12 years didn't teach such footwork, or used a plum flower pattern to explain footwork strategy and techniques - doesn't. Yiu Choi branch? Would have to ask about this some time...

As far as the actual plum flower posts (Mui Fa Jong), it seems this is a sort of generic training "tool", more relating to acrobatics than fighting skill.

Anyhow, training on those posts doesn't allow for flexible, versatile stepping with the adjustments dictated by an actual fight, so training on those has no relevance to developing practical stepping/footwork for application.

In the final analysis, this pattern might be a convenient tool to illustrate certain aspects of a given system, but a fundamental, indispensable thing that encapsulates the style's footwork and allows it to be used "as it was meant to be" it is not, far from it, it seems.

Btw, Jens, which style of Wing Chun do you practice, where this pattern is of such importance?


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## Jens (Oct 30, 2017)

jlq said:


> The "Mui Fa" pattern doesn't seem to be a pattern which is particularly emphasized by Wing Chun people in Mainland.



"It is my understanding that at one time the Ng Miu Fa Joang was considered an essential part of Wing Chun stepping development and perhaps explains the idea, shared by some, that the true secret to Wing Chun is found in the footwork. Something that is today not so much emphasized. More than one teacher has told me that the system is sometimes called "yongchun meihuquan" or "Wing Chun Plum Blossom Boxing""




jlq said:


> many years ago Leung Ting at a seminar, taught something he called "Lok Yip Bou" (falling leaf step) which basically says that on should place the feet wherever the situation requires and as such it is outside of the scope of the Mui Fa pattern he explains in the video you linked to (and his book).
> So this pattern does not contain all stepping/footwork strategies of Wing Chun, at least according to Leung Ting's teachings.
> 
> Anyhow, training on those posts doesn't allow for flexible, versatile stepping with the adjustments dictated by an actual fight, so training on those has no relevance to developing practical stepping/footwork for application.
> ...



The mui fa jong is only a tool used to teach the wing chun fighter where he needs to step in relation to his opponent's position to gain a tactical advantage. It is only a concept in the wing chun fighter's mind and not in a fix position. It is a mental method which moves with the wing chun fighter relative to his opponent's positioning.



jlq said:


> Btw, Jens, which style of Wing Chun do you practice, where this pattern is of such importance?


 I practice Yip Man wing chun and the mui fa jong concept is clearly evident in my baat jaam do set as is the baat gwa steps.

jlq which style of Wing Chun do you practice?


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## jlq (Oct 30, 2017)

YM Wing Chun is far from a homogenous group...



So where to place you?

As I pointed out to you, YM's early students in Fatsaan did not learn anything about Mui Fa Jong, nor do they use that pattern for anything. The question is, do YM's early, first generation students? If not, it cannot be that important, I would say... 

I have a background in various lineages of Wing Chun, but I gave that up to learn Cho Ga Wing Chun.

As far as "Mei Hua Tang Lang" and the style being known under that name - it is possible - who exactly said that? - but in six years of living here and interacting with many practicioners and masters of various styles, I have never heard this here in Gongjaau and Fatsaan. Now, I am not saying that no one here uses this term - I know that some Sifus do, and not only relating to footwork - but the fact that many don't (like YKS/SN lineage) clearly demonstrates that it can hardly be considered of such importance as you stated.

It is true that the footwork was considered the highest secret and that many Sifus kept this to themselves, but this doesn't mean that across the board in Wing Chun there is something called "Plum Flower Steps" and even if the same term is used, it doesn't mean that it refers to the same stepping concepts.

You seem to presume that there is THE Mui Fa Concept, but looking across schools and lineages this seems somewhat dubious, to say the least.

Read again what I wrote wrt YM's Fatsaan students vs. say Leung Ting's Plum Flower footwork idea.

In fact, "Mui Fa" this or that is one of those common terms in Chinese martial arts used with different connotations by different people. There is a "Mui Fa Kuen" style, "Mui Fa Tong Long", and a multitude of various forms across styles bearing this name...

As far as the stuff taught by Leung Ting, this is not particularly secret: He explained this openly to us, (the participants) at a seminar where he taught the dummy foem in his school in Seundak, China, back in 2004 - not to mention that it is shown and explained (albeit not clearly) in the book geezer mentioned. Nor  is it nothing particularly profound, so why make it that?



You say you can see the "Mui Fa Concepts" and "the" Baatgwa steps. I am not sure what you mean by baatgwa steps, but since you used "the" it seems like you think of them as some standard technique. Would you mind clarifying the term for better understanding? I am pretty sure it is not what YM's Fatsaan students understand by that term - but I have been wrong about things many a time before.



Since Leung Ting came up, he uses the term "Chat Sing Bou" (seven star stepping) with his knife set, not sure if any of the early students of YM do that, but it is another example of a term used in many CMA to represent different things.


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## Danny T (Oct 30, 2017)

jlq said:


> "...one should place the feet wherever the situation requires....


This is ^^^^^
Most important.

Practice footwork in numerous methods use what is needed when it is needed.


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## DanT (Oct 30, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The PRO and CON of a stance depends on the distance.
> 
> When you are in the
> 
> ...


Which is why in my Wing Chun we are given the option of not standing completely square when in kicking range. Our goal is to pin and trap the lead arm, keep our balance, and fight on the outside gate. Doing these things reduces our chances of trading blows, and reduces the opportunity our opponent has to use his superior strength and speed against us.


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## geezer (Oct 30, 2017)

*jlq*, I see you've been a member of this forum since 2014, but have only posted two messages to date ...the two on this thread. Time permitting, I would certainly hope that you can continue posting here from time to time, as you are obviously well informed _and _express yourself well in writing. And, you seem to be the only Cho Ga WC practitioner here. I appreciate your sharing with us. 

BTW your comments about the WT branch "falling leaf step" were spot on. You obviously have more than a casual acquaintance with Leung Ting's WT.


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## jlq (Oct 30, 2017)

Thank you for the kind words, geezer 

I would have liked to post some things earlier, but it is not easy because I need a VPN to access the forum from China - and we have to change providers quite often because of government crackdowns...

I will chime in whenever there a subject of interest being discussed and of course and VPN permitting.



I was quite invested in WT once upon a time.

Alas politics soured it for me...


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## ShortBridge (Oct 30, 2017)

jlq said:


> Thank you for the kind words, geezer
> 
> I would have liked to post some things earlier, but it is not easy because I need a VPN to access the forum from China - and we have to change providers quite often because of government crackdowns...
> 
> ...



It's good to have you here and look forward to your future input. I've had a small bit of exposure to Cho Ga. Not enough to speak on the subject with any credibility, but enough to have broadened my perspective a bit. Will watch for future mentions.


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## KPM (Oct 30, 2017)

jlq said:


> Thank you for the kind words, geezer
> 
> I would have liked to post some things earlier, but it is not easy because I need a VPN to access the forum from China - and we have to change providers quite often because of government crackdowns...
> 
> ...



jlq.....you have input for the "who taught Ip Man" thread?


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## geezer (Oct 30, 2017)

jlq said:


> ...I will chime in whenever there a subject of interest being discussed and of course and VPN permitting.
> 
> I was quite invested in WT once upon a time. Alas politics soured it for me...



Boy, do I hear ya on that!   Anyway, good to have you on-board!


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## Jens (Oct 30, 2017)

jlq said:


> I have a background in various lineages of Wing Chun, but I gave that up to learn Cho Ga Wing Chun.


Did you learn Cho Ga Wing Chun through the Cho family in penang malaysia or in Punyu China?
is this close to what you practice in your Cho Ga wing chun linage? 






jlq said:


> I am not sure what you mean by baatgwa steps, but since you used "the" it seems like you think of them as some standard technique. Would you mind clarifying the term for better understanding? I am pretty sure it is not what YM's Fatsaan students understand by that term - but I have been wrong about things many a time before.



I meant the baat gwa applied to stepping that Gwok Fu's son told you about below.



jlq said:


> As far as I understood it from asking Gwok Fu's son about it, there is no Mui Fa pattern used in the Wing Chun YM taught him in the early 1940s. The talk about the Baat Gwa as extremely important important and is used to explain many of the system's strategies and techniques.



What did Gwok Fu's son say specifically regarding the Baat Gwa and it's importance to the system's footwork/stepping strategies ?



jlq said:


> Since Leung Ting came up, he uses the term "Chat Sing Bou" (seven star stepping) with his knife set, not sure if any of the early students of YM do that, but it is another example of a term used in many CMA to represent different things.



This is seven star stepping, notice how the connecting dots in the photo below looks strikingly similar to the triangle stepping patterns on the plum blossom posts.






seven star stepping is just another way of explaining the sam gok ma (triangle stepping) that's done on the mui fa jong. different branches of wing chun may use different terminology to describe the same thing, no big deal. At the end of the day it's the concept they are trying to convey that important.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2017)

DanT said:


> fight on the outside gate.


Agree! It's always good to let your opponent's leading arm to "jam" his own back arm.


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## jlq (Oct 31, 2017)

Jens, 

I wrote that the plum flower pattern is not really a very important thing outside of HK Wing Chun lineages, then you posted this quote:

"It is my understanding that at one time the Ng Miu Fa Joang was considered an essential part of Wing Chun stepping development and perhaps explains the idea, shared by some, that the true secret to Wing Chun is found in the footwork. Something that is today not so much emphasized. More than one teacher has told me that the system is sometimes called "yongchun meihuquan" or "Wing Chun Plum Blossom Boxing""

As far as I.could ascertain this is a quote of something somebody said on some internet forum. The problem is that a lot of strange ideas proliferate on the internet, and far from all information one can dig up have any veracity. Even information in books is far from trustworthy...

A lot of information perpetuated on internet forums is questionable at best, so what some person on an internet has hear or believes doesn't mean much - especially not when the things claimed are inconsistent with what information can be gathered in Mainland China.

The style being known as "Mei Hua Yong Chun" (my apologolies for calling it "Mei Hua Tang Lang"  ) maybe - but not in Fatsaan or Gongjaau, at least none of the Sifus I have visited or met at the local Wing Chun association annual dinner parties have met use this term or the plum flower as a logo.

No offense, but quoting some random person's opinions and what he supposedly heard "several sifus" say doesn't refute the fact I presented.



As to your questions:

First things first...



Where to put you - what is your Wing Chun lineage exactly?

Then, you said you see "the" baatgwa footwork in your knife set - please provide some more information as to what you think "baatgwa" footwork is. Since you are referring to Gwok Fu's footwork and said that you can see it, it means you know what it is. So then?


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## jlq (Oct 31, 2017)

WRT the Seven Star footwork, I agree it is basically a series Saam Gok Bou. And yes, different schools use different terms to describe things - the point is... No need for a "Plum Flower Post" or concept to understand and practice Saam Gok Bou.


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## wckf92 (Oct 31, 2017)

Jens said:


> thanks for the reply geezer!
> Would you say these two videos of your old sifu covers everything written in his book and then some?



hahahahahahaha
Leung Ting: "don't post this to the internet"...
Student...posts it on the internet.


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## Jens (Oct 31, 2017)

jlq said:


> Jens,
> 
> I wrote that the plum flower pattern is not really a very important thing outside of HK Wing Chun lineages, then you posted this quote:
> 
> ...





jlq said:


> A lot of information perpetuated on internet forums is questionable at best, so what some person on an internet has hear or believes doesn't mean much - especially not when the things claimed are inconsistent with what information can be gathered in Mainland China.
> 
> The style being known as "Mei Hua Yong Chun" (my apologolies for calling it "Mei Hua Tang Lang"  ) maybe - but not in Fatsaan or Gongjaau, at least none of the Sifus I have visited or met at the local Wing Chun association annual dinner parties have met use this term or the plum flower as a logo.
> 
> No offense, but quoting some random person's opinions and what he supposedly heard "several sifus" say doesn't refute the fact I presented.



No offense, but where are the facts that you say you presented, sounds like merely hearsay at best. visiting some Sifus at the local Wing Chun association annual dinner parties hold's no more weight over what I've presented. Do you really believe those sifus would shared their most advance concepts with an outsider who is not a closed door student.

Are you the sole authority on wing chun
Here is a quote from the book *"Complete Wing Chun: The Definitive Guide to Wing Chun's History and Traditions"*

"Fujian wing chun represents a group of similar styles said to decend from the Fujian Siu Lam Jee (Shaolinsi or Young Forest Temple). Legends hold that Jee Shim taught the martial arts in the Wing Chun Dien (Always Spring Hall) of the temple. Following Siu Lam's destruction, severl of his disciples were said to have spread his teachings including Fong Sai-Yuk and Hu Hui-Gan who brought the art to Guangdong. *The basic curriculum includes mui fa baat gwa (plum blossom eight trigrams)*



jlq said:


> Then, you said you see "the" baatgwa footwork in your knife set - please provide some more information as to what you think "baatgwa" footwork is. Since you are referring to Gwok Fu's footwork and said that you can see it, it means you know what it is. So then?





jlq said:


> As far as I understood it from asking Gwok Fu's son about it, there is no Mui Fa pattern used in the Wing Chun YM taught him in the early 1940s. The talk about the Baat Gwa as extremely important important and is used to explain many of the system's strategies and techniques.



Since you said you spoke to Gwok Fu's son, you should already know what the baat gwa footwork strategies are lol, why ask me?

Look at the end of the day, whatever works for your own understanding. For me and my linage the Mui fa baat gwa (plum blossom eight trigrams) is integral to understanding the various footwork and stepping patterns found within wing chun and how they correlate and interconnect in relation to the opponent's movement and positioning.


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## jlq (Nov 1, 2017)

Jens,

none taken. I don't take myself too seriously and am not too sensitive.



Hearsay? Again, the fact is this:

In HK you see Wing Chun people use the Mui Fa as a logo all the time - so at some level it must be of some importance to at least some of them.

In Mainland China it seems no one uses it at all - I have been travelling to China regularly since 2004 and living here for more than six years now and been to many dinner parties and visited many different schools. Never seen anyone use the Plum Flower logo, except if it was a school from HK.

This has nothing to do with hearsay.

Fact is that none of the Wing Chun people here - I have talked to - seem to consider Mui Fa as a concept - and the Mui Fa Jong as some super special secret things. If they have something similar - Wong Nim Yi Sifu of the Mai Gei Wong school used to have what could be called a Mui Fa Jong at his Mouh Goon, but it was just a training tool to develop certain physical attributes - it doesn't seem to be sth that is greatly emphasized. Based on what I was told by the sifus directly, and what is evident from their curriculae and training.

Nothing to do with hearsay and x-hand information from internetforums, articles and books...

Now, asking senior people directly about their style is far better than relying on what one "hears" on the internet from unsubstantiated sources, at least as I see it. But maybe given the chance to ask say Leung Ting or some other master directly, you would prefer to rely on the words of what somebody heard someone say on the internet with no references and sources provided?

If one goes to ask certain people one can find out a lot of the veracity of some of things being touted as "common knowledge". Certain pieces of information become common knowledge because they are presented in books and then regurgitated uncritically by readers of said books and spread on the internet.

Case in point: In a recent thread you made some claims about what YCW had learned and something about Yip Man worrying that YKS would "steal" his dummy techniques. You were asked to provide sources as to where this information came from but you ignored that request, afair. To me it sounds like the source is Leung Ting's book, or from someone who read that book. So, in the West people believe this. However, if you go as close to the source as is possible today, you might find out that the reason YM asked his students not to play the dummy form when YKS was around was actually something much more ...mundane.



It is the same with a lot of other information strewn about on the internet...

Speaking about books.

You are quoting a passage from "Complete Wing Chun" to make a case for the "essentialness" to apply the Wing Chun style - as intended, I believe you said.

While a lot of good information is contained in this book and it is one of my favourite books on the subject it is far from authoritative - it is in essence nothing but a collection of hearsay and full of errors (in some cases even downright nonsense!) - as it later turned out when more information became available from Mainland China and SE Asia.

Leung Ting's book is far better, though. IMO of course..



Note that I emphasized that you mentioned something about this plum flower being essential in order to employ the style as it was intended.

Such a statemends more than insinuates that you (your lineage) know the original design. Considering the variety of Wing Chun out there and different approaches, I think no one can speak with authority on how Wing Chun was originally designed to work. It would be more reasonable to say "how my school/Sifu/Sigong thinks it is supposed to work".

So, do you know how Wing Chun was originally designed to work? I would very much like to see some proof to back up that claim, or at least how you rationalize this idea. Would make for an interesting discussion...



You then go on to quote an entry about a "style" (group of styles)  which is about half a page long - meaning that it is some rather obscure version of the style about which not much information is available.
It goes on to talk about some legends and semi/mythical figures which supposedly founded the style - but legends and myth doesn't constitute reliable evidence. What about the curriculum, then?
It mentions a number of forms which don't even have a name equivalent in Wing Chun.

I mentioned before that Mui Fa is a common term in Chinese martial arts - and so is Baatgwa - so just because you can find this "mui fa baatgwa"  in some style - which might in fact have nothing to do with Wing Chun other than the name - you conclude that it must be evidence that this stuff is essential for understanding of the art?

First of all, in this entry "Mui Fa Baat Gwa" is called a form - do you know what this form actually looks like?

And - considering that different people attach different meanings to the same terms - how do you know that when Wing Chun people talk about Mui Fa and Baat Gwa, it has any relevance whatsoever to the "Mui Fa Baat Gwa" form mentioned in the passage you quoted.

Same term or same name doesn't necessariy mean that there is some connection, a common mistake when looking for and making connections.

I am afraid your evidence is not very convincing...



And no, I am not a sole authority on things Wing Chun, not an authority even - nor is it an ambition of mine to become one. I am just a very curious person by nature and like to find out as much about as possible about Wing Chun as I can, when opportunities present themselves - just like you, I reckon. However, I do apply a lot of critical thinking...

Compared to many others who have to rely on information from books, videos, etc., living in China I found myself fortunate enough to have many such opportunities to ask senior people of various lineages present themselves to. I am just sharing here some of what these people told me. If you don't like it because it conflicts with whatever it is you believe to be fact, I have no issue with it. Whether you accept what I write here or not is of no consequence to me. You are free to take it or leave it...



While you are correct that traditional Chinese Sifu don't spill their innermost secrets and private opinions to casual visitors and share their "Bei Kup" with non-disciples, but with proper introduction and relations you would be surprised how open many people are... 

But even if this Mui Fa Concept/Training were such a secret, why couldn't it still be mentioned? After all, it is mentioned many places - books, videos and internet forums.

And you are asking about it here!

Do you think such important secrets would be disclosed to random persons on an internet discussion forum?



And since you have this "inside" knowledge, it means you must be a bai si student of someone...

Who be that, if one may ask?

Just trying to understand where you are coming from.



To round off this rather longish post (sorry  ), I am really wondering about the following:

Why so secretive about a simple piece of information such as what your lineage is exactly?

Why is it an issue for you to present your view on what the Baatgwa "steps" in Gwok Fu's Wing Chun is?

Why demand answers when not really willing to to provide some oneself?


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## jlq (Nov 1, 2017)

And

wasn't it you who asked me what Gwok Fu's son had said about the Baatgwa in the first place?

If it is not clear, I am asking you what you think it is first, then we can see if it actually matches up...

To many people claim to know something after the fact has been presented.


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## KPM (Nov 1, 2017)

jlq said:


> You are quoting a passage from "Complete Wing Chun" to make a case for the "essentialness" to apply the Wing Chun style - as intended, I believe you said.
> 
> While a lot of good information is contained in this book and it is one of my favourite books on the subject it is far from authoritative - it is in essence nothing but a collection of hearsay and full of errors (in some cases even downright nonsense!) - as it later turned out when more information became available from Mainland China and SE Asia.



Just thought I would point out that in Robert Chu's book "Complete Wing Chun" they sent out invitations to various Wing Chun lineages to give an account of their history/legends.  While some editing was done so that it reads well, the content is directly from those Sifus that responded.  It just goes to show how lineage stories can be so inconsistent and often times just made up.  When it comes to TCMA, "real history" is sticky subject!


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## geezer (Nov 1, 2017)

jlq said:


> While you are correct that traditional Chinese Sifu don't spill their innermost secrets and private opinions to casual visitors and share their "Bei Kup" with non-disciples, but with proper introduction and relations you would be surprised how open many people are...



jlq - help me out here. What's _"bei kup"_ ...is that "kup" as in "cover"? Meaning covered/ hidden techniques? I'm taking a wild leap from "kup jarn" --covering elbow, etc. Except with Cantonese being tonal, "kup" could mean a lot of different things, right?

Oh, and while you are at it, do you (ore anyone else) have some advice on how to translate Cantonese terms? Since I do not read Chinese characters the usual translation methods leave me lost whether going from English to Chinese (Cantonese or Mandarin) or the other way around.

I did find one site that gives translation in the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) but, honestly, I'm really not up for having to learn that either since I've never seen it used in North America outside of linguistic studies. I haven't been involved in anything like that since I finished my degree in Anthropology back in 1978 ...which might as well be centuries ago the way the world is changing!


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## Jens (Nov 1, 2017)

jlq said:


> In Mainland China it seems no one uses it at all - I have been travelling to China regularly since 2004 and living here for more than six years now and been to many dinner parties and visited many different schools. Never seen anyone use the Plum Flower logo, except if it was a school from HK.
> 
> Nothing to do with hearsay and x-hand information from internetforums, articles and books...
> 
> ...




Compared to many others who have to rely on information from books, videos, etc., living in China I found myself fortunate enough to have many such opportunities to ask senior people of various lineages present themselves to. I am just sharing here some of what these people told me. If you don't like it because it conflicts with whatever it is you believe to be fact, I have no issue with it. Whether you accept what I write here or not is of no consequence to me. You are free to take it or leave it...[/QUOTE]







jlq said:


> And you are asking about it here! Do you think such important secrets would be disclosed to random persons on an internet discussion forum?



I merely posed this question on here for the purposes of stimulating a discussion, after all this is a discussion board.


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## geezer (Nov 1, 2017)

Jens said:


> I never said all branches of wing chun use the term "plum flower posts stepping", what I did say is I can clearly see all the wing chun stepping/footwork regardless of wing chun linages within the plum flower posts stepping. My facts or evidence are right there in the steps themselves which anyone analyze. Across the board Pao fa Lien wing chun, Cho Ga wing chun, Yuen Kay Shan wing chun, Yuen Chai Wan wing chun, Fut sao wing chun, Kulo Pin Sun wing chun, and yes Yip Man wing chun all contain the plum flower posts steps and well as the baat gwa steps.* So there must be something to it right*



Sure, something...like that they are all variants of WC, but not necessarily that they all evolved from an original source that used a single version of the plum-flower posts.


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## Jens (Nov 1, 2017)

jlq said:


> In Mainland China it seems no one uses it at all - I have been travelling to China regularly since 2004 and living here for more than six years now and been to many dinner parties and visited many different schools. Never seen anyone use the Plum Flower logo, except if it was a school from HK.
> 
> Now, asking senior people directly about their style is far better than relying on what one "hears" on the internet from unsubstantiated sources, at least as I see it. But maybe given the chance to ask say Leung Ting or some other master directly, you would prefer to rely on the words of what somebody heard someone say on the internet with no references and sources provided?
> 
> It is true that the footwork was considered the highest secret and that many Sifus kept this to themselves, but this doesn't mean that across the board in Wing Chun there is something called "Plum Flower Steps" and even if the same term is used, it doesn't mean that it refers to the same stepping concepts.



Just to be clear I never said anything about all branches of wing chun using the term "plum flower posts stepping" or "the plum flower logo", what I did say is I can clearly see all the wing chun offensive stepping and footwork patterns regardless of wing chun linages within the plum flower posts stepping. My facts or evidence are right there in front of everyone's eyes to see and analyze for themslves in the steps themselves, if they know what to look for. Not based on hearsay or unsubstantiated internet sources. Across the board Pao fa Lien wing chun, Cho Ga wing chun, Yuen Kay Shan wing chun, Yuen Chai Wan wing chun, Fut sao wing chun, Kulo Pin Sun wing chun, and yes Yip Man wing chun all contain the plum flower posts steps and well as the baat gwa steps.* So there must be something to it right!* Besides casually visiting some local Wing Chun association annual dinner parties*,** I ask again where is your evidence or facts?*



jlq said:


> Case in point: In a recent thread you made some claims about what YCW had learned and something about Yip Man worrying that YKS would "steal" his dummy techniques. You were asked to provide sources as to where this information came from but you ignored that request, afair. To me it sounds like the source is Leung Ting's book, or from someone who read that book. So, in the West people believe this. However, if you go as close to the source as is possible today, you might find out that the reason YM asked his students not to play the dummy form when YKS was around was actually something much more ...mundane.



You know what they say about assumptions right, My source was sifu Lun Gai, who was sifu Gwok Fu's longtime friend and wing chun training brother under GM Yip Man in Foshan.




jlq said:


> Such a statemends more than insinuates that you (your lineage) know the original design. Considering the variety of Wing Chun out there and different approaches, I think no one can speak with authority on how Wing Chun was originally designed to work. It would be more reasonable to say "how my school/Sifu/Sigong thinks it is supposed to work".



On the contrary, I was merely pointing out the commonality of the plum flower stepping amongst the various wing chun branches


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## Jens (Nov 1, 2017)

jlq said:


> I have a background in various lineages of Wing Chun, but I gave that up to learn Cho Ga Wing Chun. It is true that the footwork was considered the highest secret and that many Sifus kept this to themselves, but this doesn't mean that across the board in Wing Chun there is something called "Plum Flower Steps" and even if the same term is used, it doesn't mean that it refers to the same stepping concepts.



You say you are learning Cho Ga wing chun right, are you an indoor student because here is a Cho Ga wing chun sifu talking about the Plum flower stepping (Mui Fa) that's also in line with my understanding at 14:22


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## geezer (Nov 1, 2017)

Jens said:


> You say you are learning Cho Ga wing chun right, are you an indoor student because here is a Cho Ga wing chun sifu talking about the Plum flower stepping (Mui Fa) that's also in line with my understanding at 14:22



Hey all, I always thought one punishment in Hell would be to be duck taped to a chair and be forced to watch Hendrick Santos videos (like this one) for eternity.... talk, talk, talk, ....never demonstrating anything and going on and on until it gets dark and he has to stop recording. 

...but I've discovered the _secret_ to bring his instruction alive and see the kung fu behind it. Start at about four minutes in and put your cursor on the red bar at the bottom of the screen, then scroll steadily forward (to the right) giving the same effect as playing the video at  very high speed ...say about 5X or 10X normal. Suddenly his kung fu will become visible!


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## KPM (Nov 2, 2017)

I do believe that the Plum Flower pattern is good way to bring out the inherent footwork in Wing Chun and develop it.  So I think it is accurate to say that it encompasses a good percentage of footwork used in most Wing Chun systems.  However, I don't think it is some "original" or "secret" technique that has become lost or neglected if a given Wing Chun lineage does not teach it.  Its just a good way to practice.  Hard to say who developed or organized it.  I take JLQ at his word when he says that none of the current mainland Wing Chun systems use the idea or the symbol.  As I have said, it isn't part of Pin Sun Wing Chun, nor it is part of the  Tang Yik Weng Chun I have seen.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2017)

geezer said:


> Actually, in Leung Ting's book on the wooden dummy (the little blue one), he goes into the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern.
> 
> I did chalk out the six point pattern under my dummy and it was sort helpful. But sometimes I think people work too hard at trying to fit their technique to complex, theoretical patterns. Sometimes it's a stretch and messes with functionality.
> 
> ...


I think this does happen (the focus on technical pattern, not the focus on shamrocks) in a lot of places in TMA. I think exact patterns are meant to give a starting point. As we progress, they should be less useful, and sometimes problematic, to stick to with precision. Most are worth revisiting, as a baseline to compare our movement and adopted patterns; we can compare our version to the technical pattern and examine the differences and whether they are good adaptations or just bad habits. Unfortunately, some instructors see any variation from the original pattern as a bad habit.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2017)

KPM said:


> I'm wondering if the Plum Blossom pattern might be useful on a rather basic level simply by breaking out parts of it to practice footwork patterns.....much like the Langkha patterns in used in Silat.


I was going to use that example (without knowing the Silat term). I've often wished I had an equivalent pattern to work with, and suspect the Silat movement would transfer to NGA with only modest adjustment.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2017)

DanT said:


> For students who only train a few hours a week : no.
> 
> For students who train full time: yes.


There have been many practices I've come across over the years that I found useful, but wouldn't introduce to my students (all are in that "few hours a week" category). They added fine-tuning, but aren't worth spending part of those few hours on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2017)

geezer said:


> BTW, have you ever seen "contact juggling"? Now that might really help your chi-sau.


My first exposure to this was Michael Moschen's work in Labyrinth. And he did most of that while hiding behind David Bowie.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2017)

geezer said:


> By comparison, working on the plum-flower piles, for all its difficulty, strikes me as being a bit ...er ... _stilted_.


That's such a "dad joke", Geezer.


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## DanT (Nov 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> There have been many practices I've come across over the years that I found useful, but wouldn't introduce to my students (all are in that "few hours a week" category). They added fine-tuning, but aren't worth spending part of those few hours on.


The good thing about Wing Chun is that there are (relatively) few drills and training methods. It usually is just a matter of perfecting the few methods and techniques we have. We have at most 20 arm mechanics and perhaps 8-15 leg mechanics to master. After that it's about being dynamic and being able to adapt the mechanics you know to any situation.


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## jlq (Nov 2, 2017)

geezer,

the characters used are:

秘笈

Bei3 Kap1

It literallly means "secret book/manuscript" and is understood that way in a gong fu context.

However, it is used more colloqially to express things like "the secret" or "trick to" doing something well or the right way is...

So a bei kap might be a very important detail about how a technique is executed or applied.

The Kap1 you are referring to - to cover sth with a lid, f.ex. - is 扱, so even though the pronunciation is identical, the meaning is totally different.


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## jlq (Nov 2, 2017)

Jens,

part 1 (the rest will follow later as I don't have too much time right now  )

You posted a video where a "Cho Ga Sifu" mentions plum flower footwork and take this evidence to support your idea.

I can understand that - it is a logical conclusion, after all a "Cho Ga Sifu" talks about plum flower steps, so the these steps must be Cho Ga.

However, this demonstrates lack of critical thinking and analysis, but of course it is difficult to be critical when one doesn't have enough information about certain things - this is not targeted at you, but a general observation and applies to each and all of us.



In this case the Sifu is a rather controversial person, as you no doubt are aware of.



But no need to get into that.

What is more relevant is that if you have followed his "development" over the years, you will see that he has long ago stopped talking about things Cho Ga and is consulting other sources to validate his ideas and as a basis for constructing his own version of what he thinks Wing Chun should be like...

The particular plum flower footwork he is talking about in the video you posted is from a certain gong fu classic dating back to the 18th century.

If you don't know this classic - or if you didn't watch enough of hos videos to do the math - it is only natural to conclude what you did.

You seem to jump to conclusions easily, grasping for anything that on the surface seems to support your view - you quoting "Complete Wing Chun" is another example...



So, things are not always what they seem - knowing the background, the context, etc. will help seeing things for what they are...


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## jlq (Nov 4, 2017)

Jens,

part two

I don't really see why you keep alluding to me referring to information gleaned from the internet and books?

I believe, I was quite clear about the fact that my information comes directly from personal interaction with people and personal experience being a student/training at various schools.

Why do you ignore that and focus on mentioning association dinners? That references was made primarily to document that the plum flower symbol that you asked about in the OP is not of great enough importance to be used as a school logo on the Mainland - as opposed to HK. So how can that not be evidence? Should be clear from my previous explanation, but perhaps you choose to be purposefully oblique?



Anyway, based on what you wrote, it seems you don't have any idea about what a martial art association dinners are about and how they work - talking about/explaining gong fu only actually happens very rarely at such events. But they are good for developing "gwaan1 hai6" which is essential if you want to find out various things...



Granted, even what people tell you in person, show you and even teach you might be nonsense - but still...



Much better to learn things directly from the horse's mouth (or as close to it as one can) rather than having to rely on bits and pieces from the internet and books as you do - or at least did in this thread here.

If you don't think talking to or even learning from senior people in various schools constitute convincing evidence, but rather believe what little you can glean from books, internet discussion forums and maybe some more or less casual visits/exchanges with people who might be far removed from the source is enough for you to form a better picture than actually interacting with various senior people in various styles, that is entirely up to you...

But people who have actually looked into things won't be too impressed by your reasoning nor your conclusions.



Now, as far as personal experience goes...

You mentioned Lun Kai as a source - did you ask him this question personally? In Chinese? Or did you hear this from someone else? Do you know exactly what he said? What else did he actually say? Did you/or someone else ask into the exact details about the situation? These are just a few of the interesting questions to ask if one wants to learn more about the situation...

Then you throw out a lot of names Ku Lo Wing Chun, Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun, Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun, Cho Ga Wing Chun...

Have you actually trained in all these styles to fully know what they contain and what not? And have you done any bai si to have access to the indoor stuff?
If not how can you speak with authority about what they have or not?



Anyway, your mind seems to be made up, so no need to explain or discuss this any further.

In your initial post you stated:

"Why is this symbol so paramount to attaining a more profound understanding of wing chun?"

Then this:



Jens said:


> When I said "All wing chun offensive footwork regardless of wck linage comes directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping." I meant the root of all wing chun offensive footwork came directly from the Plum Blossom posts stepping,



And this:



Jens said:


> Just to be clear I never said anything about all branches of wing chun using the term "plum flower posts stepping" or "the plum flower logo", what I did say is I can clearly see all the wing chun offensive stepping and footwork patterns regardless of wing chun linages within the plum flower posts stepping. My facts or evidence are right there



So then, what is it?

First you bare talking about the symbol and how paramount it is, but then suddenly it is about some "plum flower post steps" from which all Wing Chun derive their footwork... And finally it amounts to what "people can see if they know what they are looking for"...

I am curious as to what exactly you think this "plum flower post footwork" is, but based on your posting history, I doubt any explanation will be forthcoming.

FWIW you are correct that most Wing Chun has the same type of steps, stances, etc. some more/some less than others but a) there is nothing particularly advanced or really profound about these and b) they are far from unique to Wing Chun - as far as I have seen up to this point. All simple and practical stuff also found in other southern Chinese martial arts. After all things such as "saam gok bo" and "zhizhibo" are already mentioned in the ancient Siulam manuscript I mentioned in another post.

So, knowing how martial arts developed it can reasonbly be assumed that footwork and steps are most likely derived from application than some symbol.

As far as what people can see in things, I guess it depends on one's imagination and the level of abstraction one employs when looking for connections and similarities. Just like some people can clearly see Taigekkuen and Ngor Mei Hei Gong in Wing Chun because they know what they are looking for...



So, my questions to you still stand:

a) which version of YM WCK do you practice and who did you learn from?

b) what exactly do you think the "Baat Gwa" footwork is?

c) since you make sweeping statements about a lot of branches of Wing Chun, which ones have you actually experienced and what was the extent of that exposure? And who was involved?

Just trying to stimulate a good discussion here.



Looking forward to learning more details.


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## Jens (Nov 6, 2017)

jlq said:


> I don't really see why you keep alluding to me referring to information gleaned from the internet and books?



I was not alluding to you referring to information gleaned from the internet and books, I was referring to you suggesting that my only source of information was gleaned from the internet and books.



jlq said:


> You mentioned Lun Kai as a source - did you ask him this question personally? In Chinese? Or did you hear this from someone else? Do you know exactly what he said? What else did he actually say? Did you/or someone else ask into the exact details about the situation? These are just a few of the interesting questions to ask if one wants to learn more about the situation...



A good friend of mine was a long time direct student of sifu Lun Kai, he translated what sifu Lun said for me



jlq said:


> Then you throw out a lot of names Ku Lo Wing Chun, Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun, Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun, Cho Ga Wing Chun...
> 
> Have you actually trained in all these styles to fully know what they contain and what not? And have you done any bai si to have access to the indoor stuff? If not how can you speak with authority about what they have or not?



I have friends who are indoor deciples in the branches of wck that I've mentioned in my earlier post who've openly shared their knowledge with me, so i don't necessarily have to be an indoor student myself. I've seen enough of these systems as well as had indepth discussions with these individuals, Some of whom I may add are sifus in their particular branches of wing chun. Everyone is free to believe what they want right. So how about we agree to disagree on this one and leave it at that.




jlq said:


> a) which version of YM WCK do you practice and who did you learn from?



My sifu was a private student of Yip Man, and would like to remain anonymous, so out of respect for him, I have not divulge his name on here



jlq said:


> b) what exactly do you think the "Baat Gwa" footwork is?



it has to do with 8 directional stepping and angles of attack.



jlq said:


> c) since you make sweeping statements about a lot of branches of Wing Chun, which ones have you actually experienced and what was the extent of that exposure? And who was involved?


I have personally studied 3 of the branches of wing chun that I mentioned earlier and I will not divulge the names of the individuals whom shared information with me from these particular branches to protect their privacy.



I've answered your questions, how about reciprocating
*My questions to you still stand*:

You mentioned: 





jlq said:


> I have a background in various lineages of Wing Chun, but I gave that up to learn Cho Ga Wing Chun.


a) Did you learn Cho Ga Wing Chun through the Cho family in penang malaysia or in Punyu China? and who did you learn from?

b) Is this close to what you practice in your Cho Ga wing chun linage? 






jlq said:


> As far as I understood it from asking Gwok Fu's son about it, there is no Mui Fa pattern used in the Wing Chun YM taught him in the early 1940s. The talk about the Baat Gwa as extremely important important and is used to explain many of the system's strategies and techniques.



c) What did Gwok Fu's son say specifically regarding the Baat Gwa and it's importance used to explain many of the system's strategies and techniques ?


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## jlq (Nov 6, 2017)

Jens, 

Agreeing to disagree is probably the best thing considering the way our exchange has been going.



Thank you very much for the answers...

But you actually avoided giving any information.

Hm... All this secrecy...



I am pretty sure you have visited Hendrik and tried to siphon some information from him - but I would take care to trust whatever he - and compatriots - might have told you, if I were you.

Critical thinking is a must when dealing with those "sources"...



Anyway, enough of that.

To your questions:

The Cho Ga I am learning is not the version displayed in the video you linked to. 

My Sifu... I am sorry, I have to respect his privacy, so I cannot name him.  

(Seriously, though: Add me on Facebook or even better - on Whatsapp - and I will tell you all about it).

Baat Gwa Footwork: In Gwok Fu's Wing Chun it is a basic stepping drill for beginners, done as part of a "warm up" and it is not done in 8 directions.


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## Parky (Nov 6, 2017)

jlq said:


> Jens,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hendrik...yeah, that there is a special kind of crazy!


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