# A young first degree black belt opens a school...



## girlbug2 (Apr 7, 2009)

What do you think about first degree black belts opening their own schools? In your opinion, would a first degree have enough experience either as a martial artist or as a teacher to be doing this? Under what circumstances, if any,would you consider taking classes from him/her?

The reason I ask is because somebody I know is contemplating signing on with a school recently opened by a first degree jiu jitsu black belt. I know next to nothing about that art, so I can't advise. But it sends up a red flag to me that the sensei is relatively young and IMO, therefore inexperienced. Or perhaps I'm just being age-prejudiced?

Your thoughts?


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## terryl965 (Apr 7, 2009)

Maybe he has alot more experience than a normal 1ST degre, I mean he could have been traing for twenty years and decided to start belt testing.


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## Nolerama (Apr 7, 2009)

how young are you talking?


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 7, 2009)

The proof is on the mat. The teacher is not concealing the fact that he is a first dan. There are ways people can re-imagine themselves as grand sokes with multiple stripes and all the rest. Is he teaching a good program? Can students advance to a teacher who can promote them to a dan if they've earned the right to grade?

My teachers were first dans. We had a ten-year time in grade to black belt. By the time I got there, my teachers were still ten years more experienced than I.


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## bluekey88 (Apr 7, 2009)

It depends on the style of jiu itsu...in brazilian jiu jitsu...blue belt is a teaching level (equivalent to 1st dan in most other styles)...so a !st dan in BJJ has a LOT of expereince.  Then againb, other styles woudl be different.  I'd say judge more by the teaching and technical skills of the instructor.

Peace,
Erik


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 7, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> It depends on the style of jiu itsu...in brazilian jiu jitsu...blue belt is a teaching level (equivalent to 1st dan in most other styles)...so a !st dan in BJJ has a LOT of expereince.  Then againb, other styles woudl be different.  I'd say judge more by the teaching and technical skills of the instructor.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik



Good point. I know of a couple of BJJ blue belts who run schools and bring students up to the intermediate ranks.


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## girlbug2 (Apr 7, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> how young are you talking?


 
Mid twenties is looking young to me


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## seasoned (Apr 7, 2009)

I believe a solid set of standards, out weights a strong desire, in many instances. To teach someone the rudimentary techniques of karate can be done by a 1st degree black belt. To truly convey the arts in a mature, concise, in-depth manner would take an individual with the type of insight and experience only time can produce. In this case, I am not talking about the 10 year old black belt, that at 21 years old has 10 years under their belt. I am talking about an individual that has tasted of life, and has much to contribute to the growth of a student populace willing to spend their hard earned money in a quest, an education if you will, not only in technique, but of personal growth, that only a seasoned practitioner can accomplish.


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## girlbug2 (Apr 7, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> It depends on the style of jiu itsu...in brazilian jiu jitsu...blue belt is a teaching level (equivalent to 1st dan in most other styles)...so a !st dan in BJJ has a LOT of expereince. Then againb, other styles woudl be different. I'd say judge more by the teaching and technical skills of the instructor.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik


 
Yes, it's BJJ.

I suppose my reservations were groundless.

But in other styles, I still think it would be weird for a newly-promoted BB to start their own school.


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## Nolerama (Apr 7, 2009)

Like Gordon said, the proof is on the mat. Is he competing?


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## arnisador (Apr 7, 2009)

I'd be discouraging, but there are always the exceptional individuals!


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## J Ellis (Apr 7, 2009)

You might also consider the art such a person is teaching. If there are a dozen schools (and hopefully at least a few competent ones) teaching the same art in the immediate area, why would a first dan open a school? On the other hand, there may be nothing like it in the area, and he simply wishes to share the art while continuing to train and progress himself.

Teaching experience is a requirement for rank advancement in some systems. This may be his only option.

I'm not defending any specific situation, just suggesting a few other possibilities that ought to be considered.

Joel


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## Tames D (Apr 7, 2009)

I wouldn't care if he's still in diapers, as long as he can impress me with his fighting abilities and transfer those abilities through teaching, I'm On Board.


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## seasoned (Apr 7, 2009)

Many people can look at the same anything and conclude a different perception. I guess as long as each is happy in their own right, so be it.


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## arnisador (Apr 7, 2009)

In BJJ I've seen blue belts open schools.


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## ArmorOfGod (Apr 8, 2009)

In BJJ, blue belt is what us karate guys would consider a first degree black belt.  As Arnisodor just stated, BJJ blue belts can open their own schools and it takes around 10 years typically to get a black belt in bjj.
Compare that to tons of karate and tkd schools where it can take 2 years to get a black belt.
Bottom line: in bjj, a first degree black belt can defenitely open a school.
If it were karate or tkd, I personally would say it is a bad idea.

AoG


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## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2009)

As the others have said BJJ blue belts will be more than able instructors, is the black belt a Brazilian? I ask because we have a few Brazilian black belt as well as blue belt instructors here and they are all awesome. In Brazil they seem to take their namesake juijitsu very seriously and have a great deal of experience teaching and competing.


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## Grenadier (Apr 8, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> Yes, it's BJJ.


 
No worries, then.  There are purple belts who have their own schools, since that's similar to having a nidan in other Ju Jutsu systems.  Many brown belts also have schools, too.  



> But in other styles, I still think it would be weird for a newly-promoted BB to start their own school.


 
Not entirely.  As long as the instructor is working with the limitations of his abilities, then there shouldn't be a problem here.  

For example, a shodan in most Karate systems could certainly be trusted to teach Karate to those who are under black belt, with the understanding that any students who wish to become shodan or higher, would have to take their exams with a higher up instructor.  

Of course, by that time, if the shodan instructor has been training long enough to have his or her students coming up for shodan, then they should be coming up on nidan, as well.


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## MJS (Apr 8, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> What do you think about first degree black belts opening their own schools? In your opinion, would a first degree have enough experience either as a martial artist or as a teacher to be doing this? Under what circumstances, if any,would you consider taking classes from him/her?
> 
> The reason I ask is because somebody I know is contemplating signing on with a school recently opened by a first degree jiu jitsu black belt. I know next to nothing about that art, so I can't advise. But it sends up a red flag to me that the sensei is relatively young and IMO, therefore inexperienced. Or perhaps I'm just being age-prejudiced?
> 
> Your thoughts?


 
IMHO, anytime you decide to invest in something, it is very wise to do your homework.  Watching a few classes, perhaps taking a few free classes, asking about his/her background, etc., are all key things.  

Someone mentioned age, and again, IMO, I think that the person should be mature enough for the rank.  You said the person appears to be in their 20s and I doubt you're going to find many places that have kids running the school anyways, so sure, if you're interested, give it a look. 

After reading more of this thread, I see that its a BJJ school.  From what I've seen and heard, the timeframes are alot longer than your average MA school, so I would say he's probably got some good knowledge.  

For me, its not so much the rank, but how well the person understands the material, how well they can teach and apply it.  Just because the person has X color around their waist doesnt mean anything.


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## arnisador (Apr 8, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> Yes, it's BJJ.



In BJJ, that should be a very experienced individual, more-or-less equivalent to a 3rd degree black belt in other systems.


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## TallAdam85 (Apr 23, 2009)

i would say watch one of his classes and you be the judge


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## girlbug2 (Apr 23, 2009)

Sorry I've been away from this thread for a while.

Yes, the instructor is Brazilian and he competes.

From what everybody is telling me here, he should be very experienced and competent. Okay, my concerns are alleviated .

(I had no idea before this how different the ranking system in BJJ was from other martial arts!)

Thanks to all who responded.


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 23, 2009)

Actually this thread is fairly close to home for me. My Sensei -- two brothers nine and eleven years my junior -- were in this very position. Their sensei had left the club when they were in their early twenties, and they ended up taking it over. The elder brother was just out of university, if I recall, a brand new dan, and the younger had remained at brown belt for some time because of an injury. In order to grade the younger to black belt, a committee of examiners was struck, consisting of long-standing black belts.

They held to a long time in grade to first dan -- ten years. There wasn't another dan grading for many years after they took over. I believe I was about the fourth first dan they had ever graded, also by committee.

They worked really hard to maintain the integrity of the club because they knew that they would be seen as very young to have this responsibility. Now with both brothers nearing forty, and with extensive training in other arts, they don't have to worry about this issue.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 23, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> What do you think about first degree black belts opening their own schools? In your opinion, would a first degree have enough experience either as a martial artist or as a teacher to be doing this? Under what circumstances, if any,would you consider taking classes from him/her?
> 
> The reason I ask is because somebody I know is contemplating signing on with a school recently opened by a first degree jiu jitsu black belt. I know next to nothing about that art, so I can't advise. But it sends up a red flag to me that the sensei is relatively young and IMO, therefore inexperienced. Or perhaps I'm just being age-prejudiced?
> 
> Your thoughts?


 There are plenty of high ranking blackbelts that don't deserve the rank; so, I would just see how it goes before surrounding the school with torches and pitchforks.
Sean


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 24, 2009)

Touch Of Death said:


> There are plenty of high ranking blackbelts that don't deserve the rank; so, I would just see how it goes before surrounding the school with torches and pitchforks.
> Sean



Also, it depends on the organization. Blackbelts in Genbukan can open dojo, but it is expected of course that they themselves keep on training under a higher level sensei.

And it is also not uncommon for higher kyu level students to become group leader and open a club for new students, under the tutelage of another blackbelt.
For example, my sensei is a kyu level instructor. He is still many kyu levels above us, so well qualified to teach us the first kyu levels. Every month, the head sensei (a master level instructor) teaches class, and checks up on us.
And of course, our instructor is expected to keep ahead of us.

It's a system that works fine, on the assumption that there is a top-down level of quality control.
After all, you don't need to be a blackbelt to properly teach someone the first kyu levels.

The advantage of this system is that there can be new schools opened if there is a dedicated person wanting to be group leader, and this helps the spread of dojo. But as I said, it depends on the quality control within the organization.


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## searcher (Apr 25, 2009)

I agree that it depends on the style and the person involved.

If they can convey the information to the students and they hold high standards, then it should not be a problem.


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## RRepster (May 16, 2009)

searcher said:


> I agree that it depends on the style and the person involved.
> 
> If they can convey the information to the students and they hold high standards, then it should not be a problem.



True. Many "schools" are actually clubs anyway and have testings conducted by a panel of higher dans than their instructor. The TKD club I was a member of had a 1st dan instructor but we had advancements periodically by higher ranked organization members at organizational testing events. Of course that also turned out to be the problem because the leaders got busy and testing events kept getting cancelled and we couldn't advance. But that was 20 years ago. Some TKD orgs. now require the dan to be higher to teach because they advance them (IMO) too quickly to 1st dan. The 1st dans I've been seeing in TKD wouldn't last a minute free sparring the greens in the club I went to back then but do keep in mind this organization was small and very militaristic. On the plus side it made Basic training and AIT a breeze for me compared to others.


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