# Sore joints



## jezr74 (Jan 19, 2013)

I'm getting sore joints when doing punching and kicking drills and Kata. (Mainly elbows)

Is this something your body gets used to over time? 
38 yo beginner

Thanks,
Jez





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## DennisBreene (Jan 19, 2013)

You are new to Shotokan? Have you trained other hard styles or other soft syles.  At 38, you are in what we call, early middle age or late middle youth, or early late middle middle age.  Jane the ignorant slut is trying to chime in in the background. The point is, you aren't a kid anymore. Are you in a proper stance, locking the joints with each strike or kick (very stressful on them)? You might want to have your instructor observe your technique and see if you are placing inordinate stress on the joints. In addition, adequate warm up and stretching becomes more important as we (sadly) age.
Hope some of that helps.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 19, 2013)

Question: Do you fully extend your arm or leg when you punch or kick air?
If the answer to that question is yes, please, stop doing that. For the sake of your joints.

Other than that, warm up more.


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## K-man (Jan 19, 2013)

As *Cyriacus *has suggested, it is probably hyper extension that is causing the problem with the elbow. Don't over extend with your punching. Make sure you keep a slight flexion at of the elbow at all times. The knee is slightly different. Knee problems can come from kicking pads more from 'air' kicks. Just check to make sure you are not turning with a locked knee.   :asian:


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## jezr74 (Jan 19, 2013)

Yep, new. I think your right over extending and age. Will work on my control, they seem to need quick snappy punching that I just don't have correct control of yet.

I had just started Wing Chin back in Australia before being assigned to the US which just seems to need different angles on movement.

Ill try and explain in next class again, they struggle with my accent and there are not many people with English as a primary language so they kind of get embarrassed when they can't work out what I'm saying, so dropped trying to ask.

But over extending makes sense, just not sure how to stop the whip like motion required and still look snappy. can I just leave the joints slightly bent, or will that become a bad habit? Or odds that what you mean by flexion.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 19, 2013)

Fish oil and hyluronic acid are good for joints.  Its probably as already said improper form but in case its just getting old like me I've seen great improvement when taking them


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## K-man (Jan 19, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> But over extending makes sense, just not sure how to stop the whip like motion required and still look snappy. can I just leave the joints slightly bent, or will that become a bad habit? Or odds that what you mean by flexion.


Leaving your arm slightly bent is essential, not a bad habit. That is what I meant by flexion. (Getting a 'snappy' punch comes from practice.) You achieve extension from the shoulder, not from the elbow. If any of your instructors are suggesting you need to punch with a totally straight arm I'd be looking for another school. Arm structure is the first thing I teach before anyone even throws their first punch.  :asian:


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## Cyriacus (Jan 19, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> Yep, new. I think your right over extending and age. Will work on my control, they seem to need quick snappy punching that I just don't have correct control of yet.
> 
> I had just started Wing Chin back in Australia before being assigned to the US which just seems to need different angles on movement.
> 
> ...


As KMan said, its not a bad habit. Think of it this way: You throw a punch as hard as you can. Tell me, since when have you hit your target at the maximum extention of your arm? And if you do, i bet you theres no power. No, you hit at about 3/4 extention or less. So, why extend out as far as you can? It will 'feel' less forceful at first, right up until you get used to it


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## jezr74 (Jan 19, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback guys. Will start working on it

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## mook jong man (Jan 19, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> Yep, new. I think your right over extending and age. Will work on my control, they seem to need quick snappy punching that I just don't have correct control of yet.
> 
> _*I had just started Wing Chin back in Australia before being assigned to the US which just seems to need different angles on movement.*_
> 
> ...



If you are still practicing the Wing Chun centerline punch then it is imperative to extend the arm fully from the elbow , we call this "Elbow Force".
As long as you are correct in your technique and biceps / shoulder remain relaxed you will not damage your elbow joint at all.
If you are using the Wing Chun method and you are experiencing pain in the elbow joint , then you maybe using a slight "hammering action" instead of driving the elbow forward.

This error will will manifest itself as skinned knuckles when you are training your "Continuous Punch" on the canvas wall bag , however if you are correct in your technique and driving the elbows forward properly you will be able to do many hundreds of repetitions without losing any skin off your knuckles.

This applies only to Wing Chun striking , if you are using some other method then you should listen to the instructor.


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## Grenadier (Jan 22, 2013)

This is quite common, where locking out the elbow results in soreness.  It's a mechanical mistake that happens with most types of martial arts, and even with kickboxing aerobics, where they specifically tell you not to lock out the elbow.  As the others have already well-stated, you don't want to lock out your elbow, and you do want to keep a bit of flex in it, just to prevent hyperextension from occurring each time.  

In the meantime, ice down your elbow, and take a couple of anti-inflammatory pills, such as Advil or Aleve.  They'll help dull the pain, as well as keep the swelling down.  This way, you'll cut down on irritation as well, and can speed up your recovery.


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## OldKarateGuy (Feb 3, 2013)

Just to reiterate what others have advised: you are hyper-extending your elbow. At the moment of focus, you must maintain a slight bend in your elbow. You can't just whip the arm out with no control and snap your elbow to straight (or even convex). At maximum tension, there should be a slight bend in the arm at the elbow. Use your muscles to arrest the movement toward straight. Hate to tell you, but that soreness in your elbow? it's gonna take a few months to go away. But I think it's pretty common with new students trying to punch too hard too soon. Same thing happened to me when I was new.


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## Aiseant (Feb 4, 2013)

Hi jezr74,
Sorry to hear about your elbows, I hope you'll get better. I totally agree with the others about locked elbows, it's one of the things I'm telling the most often to new comers (and sometimes not so new ...). You'll have the same trouble with knees if you don't take care of it.
You'll destoy slowly the joint when you're not hitting something, and if you do hit something hard with you arm fully extended, you'll probably endure great pain as there's nothing to absorb the impact

Anyway, stop doing it  And for recovery : I found Chi gong, Zen Gym or same spirit exercises very good for healing the joints


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## jezr74 (Mar 8, 2013)

I must be an old dog, do you think it's worth wearing elbow wraps to restrict my extension? I just can't seem to stop doing it.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 8, 2013)

Covering up a bad habit is counter-productive. Work harder at changing the bad habit instead. Pain is a good motivator to make the change.


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## jezr74 (Mar 8, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Covering up a bad habit is counter-productive. Work harder at changing the bad habit instead. Pain is a good motivator to make the change.



I'll keep at it. Do I need to "flex\tighten" the muscles at the joint area near full extension to stop it? I actually find it hard to tell if I have stopped in time, or overextended.

BTW. Great background picture on your clubs Facebook page.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 8, 2013)

Thow a slow punch. Stop it before you're 100% extended. Remember how you did it, and keep doing it when you punch full speed. Simple, right?  You're going to be tightening the flexor muscles.

The problem is you've taught yourself to do it one way (hyperextending) and will have to retrain to stop. Personally, I think a small change like this is much more difficult than a big change. When you make a big change, it's like our brains see it as a new movement and lets you learn, but when you try to make a small change (and the smaller the change, the more difficult it is to make) your brain insists on doing it the "old" way.

I like that picture too. We've got some great kids in the program. I'm the old fat guy in the black with white diamonds.


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## OldKarateGuy (Mar 9, 2013)

They do make elbow supports that are neoprene, and which have a slight concave shape from stitching. I used to wear one on either elbow, because they warmed me up better, and as you straighten the elbow, you will feel a little resistance. Maybe it was mental, but they did seem to help correct my bad habit of banging my elbows to straight or beyond on hard punches. Something like this from Ace, available in drug stores and pretty cheap too


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## Cyriacus (Mar 10, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> I must be an old dog, do you think it's worth wearing elbow wraps to restrict my extension? I just can't seem to stop doing it.


You may be overadjusting. The difference is very small. If you want a psychological version, start hitting some pads or hit a bag. Notice where your arm hits the bag. Notice its extention.


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## Carol (Mar 10, 2013)

Diet can play a role in joint pains as well, as some foods are inflammatory while others are anti-inflammatory.

Self Magazine has a page that lists a lot of details about foods.  The nutrition information is the most in-depth that I have seen, personally...including an inflammation index that can assist in gauging which foods (and what proportions of which foods) have inflammatory properties and which have anti-inflammatory properties. 

http://nutritiondata.self.com/


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## jezr74 (Mar 13, 2013)

I think I may have found my problem. I was too hard to explain my problem, so I took a different direction and had my Sensei show me in detail the complete strike. I think I may have been turning my fist to early and was causing me to have too much time to over extend.

But I have also been looking at diet and fish oil as had been suggested, which sounds like a good thing to start anyway.

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## rframe (Mar 16, 2013)

I'm basically the same age.  I take fish oil and glucosamine daily.  The most important thing I've found is a good warm up before workouts and a good stretching routine after the workouts.  I'm not as flexible as age comes on and the stretching after workouts is absolutely essential.  I can stretch out in 5 minutes or less and it nearly eliminates sore joints the following day.


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## jezr74 (Apr 19, 2013)

I've managed to go from injury to injury, my latest is a torn meniscus. I finally had my elbow joints worked out, over extending.

I warm up ok, I stretch after training. I when I'm doing cardio or weights on the off days I'm fine. I just seem to be struggling with the angles of Karate (if that makes sense). This has been an issue for me from the start, by flexibility has improved, but I'm thinking maybe the style doesn't suit me.

Are the styles different enough in strikes that I'd be using muscles and tendons differently, switch to a soft style?

for example. I believe WC generally only kick below the belt.  That sounds appealing. :drink2tha


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## mook jong man (Apr 19, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> I've managed to go from injury to injury, my latest is a torn meniscus. I finally had my elbow joints worked out, over extending.
> 
> I warm up ok, I stretch after training. I when I'm doing cardio or weights on the off days I'm fine. I just seem to be struggling with the angles of Karate (if that makes sense). This has been an issue for me from the start, by flexibility has improved, but I'm thinking maybe the style doesn't suit me.
> 
> ...



Some techniques we actually kick as high as the solar plexus or up into the rib cage , but we generally like to have control of at least one of the opponents arms and thus their balance when we do it.


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