# The TSA And Racial Profiling



## MJS (Aug 12, 2012)

http://news.yahoo.com/report-racial-profiling-alleged-boston-airport-011708310.html



> NEW YORK (AP)  Transportation Security Administration officers at Boston's Logan International Airport are alleging that a program intended to help flag possible terrorists based on passengers' mannerisms has led to rampant racial profiling, a newspaper reported Saturday.
> The New York Times (http://nyti.ms/P2enzf ) reported on its website that in interviews and internal complaints it has obtained, more than 30 officers involved in the "behavior detection" program at Logan contend that the operation targets not only Middle Easterners, but also passengers who fit certain profiles  such as Hispanics traveling to Miami, or blacks wearing baseball caps backward.



Thoughts?


----------



## elder999 (Aug 12, 2012)

MJS said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/report-racial-profiling-alleged-boston-airport-011708310.html
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts?



Boston is easily one of the most prejudiced cities in the northeast, if not the country. Maybe it's not the TSA.

Maybe it's Boston.


----------



## ballen0351 (Aug 12, 2012)

Isn't that what people wanted?


----------



## granfire (Aug 12, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Isn't that what people wanted?



LOL, you think people actually want what they think they want?!

But it certainly beats feeling up infants and seniors...


----------



## ballen0351 (Aug 12, 2012)

granfire said:


> LOL, you think people actually want what they think they want?!
> 
> But it certainly beats feeling up infants and seniors...


That's the point people are asking for things they have no concept of and when they get a glimpse of it they don't like it.


----------



## granfire (Aug 12, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> That's the point people are asking for things they have no concept of and when they get a glimpse of it they don't like it.



yep.
Now quit scaring me! We still got a lot of 2012 left, stop agreeing with me!


----------



## ballen0351 (Aug 13, 2012)

granfire said:


> yep.
> Now quit scaring me! We still got a lot of 2012 left, stop agreeing with me!



I'm.not all bad.


----------



## MJS (Aug 13, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Isn't that what people wanted?



I think you're right.  LOL, now that you mention it, its the same thing in the work place.  People ***** and complain about things, calling for changes, yet, for some odd reason, they don't think about the aftermath of their changes.  Go figure.  

As for whether or not racial profiling is actually happening....don't know.  I don't travel enough (Thank God!!!) to have to worry about too many 'feel ups' or dealings with the TSA, to really worry, however, I'm sure with anything, RP will happen, amongst some of the officers.


----------



## granfire (Aug 13, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> I'm.not all bad.



there, fixed that for you!


----------



## Wo Fat (Aug 13, 2012)

MJS said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/report-racial-profiling-alleged-boston-airport-011708310.html
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts?



Shouldn't be too much of a surprise.  Racial profiling isn't limited to the airports; it's also a fact of law enforcement life on the streets.  Some say that it's not about the "race" of the various groups targeted, but that it's just good common sense.  Middle Easterners tend to commit terrorist acts, Latinos/Hispanics tend to run drugs, and Blacks tend to be generally criminally inclined.  Or so goes the rationale. 

Did I leave anyone out?


----------



## ballen0351 (Aug 13, 2012)

Wo Fat said:


> Shouldn't be too much of a surprise.  Racial profiling isn't limited to the airports; it's also a fact of law enforcement life on the streets.  Some say that it's not about the "race" of the various groups targeted, but that it's just good common sense.  Middle Easterners tend to commit terrorist acts, Latinos/Hispanics tend to run drugs, and Blacks tend to be generally criminally inclined.  Or so goes the rationale.
> 
> Did I leave anyone out?



You know what I look for most often.  A car with 3 or more white people usually 1 female with tags that come back to a town at least 35 min away sitting in a grocery store parking lot but not going inside 9 out of 10 tines they are waiting for dope


----------



## CanuckMA (Aug 13, 2012)

Wo Fat said:


> Shouldn't be too much of a surprise.  Racial profiling isn't limited to the airports; it's also a fact of law enforcement life on the streets.  Some say that it's not about the "race" of the various groups targeted, but that it's just good common sense.  Middle Easterners tend to commit terrorist acts, Latinos/Hispanics tend to run drugs, and Blacks tend to be generally criminally inclined.  Or so goes the rationale.
> 
> Did I leave anyone out?



Jews control the banks.


----------



## granfire (Aug 13, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> Jews control the banks.



and industry and the communist party...


----------



## CanuckMA (Aug 13, 2012)

granfire said:


> and industry and the communist party...



And the media...


----------



## ballen0351 (Aug 13, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> And the media...



And all the best sandwich shops


----------



## granfire (Aug 13, 2012)

yep, everything.


----------



## Buka (Aug 14, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Boston is easily one of the most prejudiced cities in the northeast, if not the country. Maybe it's not the TSA.
> 
> Maybe it's Boston.



I've lived in Boston most of my life and do not find that to be true. I've found the concept of others saying that to be true, but not prejudice itself. At least not more than any other place in country.

As for any profiling that takes place at Boston's Logan Airport - I sure wish they had been doing that eleven years ago.

Also, in my opinion, everyone profiles in their daily life. Everyone.


----------



## Gentle Fist (Aug 14, 2012)

They always seem to stop the elderly female or way overweight handicap kid the few times I have watched them...  No rhyme or reason from what I saw...


----------



## elder999 (Aug 14, 2012)

Buka said:


> I've lived in Boston most of my life and do not find that to be true. .



I lived in Cambridge for almost two years, and spent a fair amount of time in Boston. I liked it. That said, as a fairly well traveled, black New Yorker, it's easily the northeast city where I encountered the most prejudice-and I've actually encountered far less in my visits to some southern cities, so I'll stand by my statement.

As to profiling, just becuase everyone does it, doesn't make it right.

As to 9/11, while I can understand the sentiment, it likely would not have accomplished anything-"Arabs" weren't on the radar, really-there was no TSA, just "rent a cop" security (not that the TSA is any different)-and those guys had made efforts to fit in.

Here's Mohammed Atta, the so-called "leader" of the 9/11 criminals, on 9/11:




Probably didn't raise any more eyebrows than his box-cutter did. 


More's the pity, though: these guys were on our radar, and we just weren't paying enough attention.


----------



## granfire (Aug 14, 2012)

Gentle Fist said:


> They always seem to stop the elderly female or way overweight handicap kid the few times I have watched them...  No rhyme or reason from what I saw...



Same reason PETA does not protest bikers wearing leather or the NYC Anti Carriage people don't go after mounted cops: You pick the target least likely to kick your a$$.


----------



## Cryozombie (Aug 14, 2012)

Wo Fat said:


> Or so goes the rationale.
> 
> Did I leave anyone out?



Yeah you forgot about Mc's like me, who drink to much then start fights and beat our wives.


----------



## Wo Fat (Aug 14, 2012)

elder999 said:


> I lived in Cambridge for almost two years, and spent a fair amount of time in Boston. I liked it. That said, as a fairly well traveled, black New Yorker, it's easily the northeast city where I encountered the most prejudice-and I've actually encountered far less in my visits to some southern cities, so I'll stand by my statement.
> 
> As to profiling, just becuase everyone does it, doesn't make it right.
> 
> ...



As a well-traveled Black Californian, I have to agree.  The experiences I had in Boston were memorable, but I also did have to deal with a bit of prejudice here and there.  As much as the South?  Probably not a fair comparison as I didn't actually live in Boston.  But then, dealing with racial prejudice is burdensome no matter where it happens.


----------



## ballen0351 (Aug 14, 2012)

elder999 said:


> I lived in Cambridge for almost two years, and spent a fair amount of time in Boston. I liked it. That said, as a fairly well traveled, black New Yorker, it's easily the northeast city where I encountered the most prejudice-and I've actually encountered far less in my visits to some southern cities, so I'll stand by my statement.
> 
> As to profiling, just becuase everyone does it, doesn't make it right.
> 
> ...



They fit in so well one of the hijackers was pulled over for speeding by a Maryland state trooper on Sept 9th and atta  himself had a warrant from Fla for failing to pay a fine in traffic court.  These guys just were not on the radar at least in local law enforcement circles


----------



## Wo Fat (Aug 14, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> They fit in so well one of the hijackers was pulled over for speeding by a Maryland state trooper on Sept 9th and atta  himself had a warrant from Fla for failing to pay a fine in traffic court.  These guys just were not on the radar at least in local law enforcement circles


Apologies if this is a dumb question.  Is "fitting in" still *a* reliable means of ruling out suspicious persons, or do you in law enforcement have to resist that tendency and make a conscious effort to observe people who do "fit in"?


----------



## granfire (Aug 14, 2012)

Wo Fat said:


> Apologies if this is a dumb question.  Is "fitting in" still *a* reliable means of ruling out suspicious persons, or do you in law enforcement have to resist that tendency and make a conscious effort to observe people who do "fit in"?



Huh? what?

By laws of averages and human nature 'fitting in' extremely heightens your chances of going unnoticed. 
If those guys had worn their ethnic dress, would they have made it into flight school? 

Although, getting traffic tickets is not the way to stay unnoticed, though - back then - it didn't hurt, obviously....and frankly, with all the new laws in place and the Mickey mouse Brigade guarding our borders...I don't think a ticket for even aggravated speeding would be a blip on the radar 3 states over....


----------



## Wo Fat (Aug 14, 2012)

granfire said:


> Huh? what?
> 
> By laws of averages and human nature 'fitting in' extremely heightens your chances of going unnoticed.
> If those guys had worn their ethnic dress, would they have made it into flight school?



You emphasize the thrust of my question.  Since "fitting in" raises the chances of a criminal or terrorist's chances of carrying out their attack, would it make sense for law enforcement to be conscious of people who "fit it"?  You said it yourself: "those guys" fit right in at flight school.


----------



## ballen0351 (Aug 14, 2012)

We need to keep an open mind about everyone.  As soon as we focus on one "type" criminals change the pattern.  So we need to look at everyone.  I've often found when I have made up my mind about someone or a situation before knowing all the facts I'm.usually wrong.


----------



## CanuckMA (Aug 14, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> And all the best sandwich shops



But the best bagel shops are owned by Filipino.


----------



## ballen0351 (Aug 14, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> But the best bagel shops are owned by Filipino.



And the best donut shop I've ever been too is owns by a couple from Thailand.  You get donuts before noon and Thai food after noon


----------



## elder999 (Aug 14, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> And the best donut shop I've ever been too is owns by a couple from Thailand. You get donuts before noon and Thai food after noon



I would be one fat cop. :lol:


----------



## granfire (Aug 14, 2012)

elder999 said:


> I would be one fat cop. :lol:



Bowling for perps?


----------



## CanuckMA (Aug 14, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> We need to keep an open mind about everyone.  As soon as we focus on one "type" criminals change the pattern.  So we need to look at everyone.  I've often found when I have made up my mind about someone or a situation before knowing all the facts I'm.usually wrong.



One of the effective method at Ben Gurion is to pull people from a line to question them. While other undercover watch thereaction of those around who have not been selected.


----------



## Tgace (Aug 14, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> And the best donut shop I've ever been too is owns by a couple from Thailand.  You get donuts before noon and Thai food after noon



Annapolis?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## ballen0351 (Aug 15, 2012)

Tgace said:


> Annapolis?
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk



Yeah best donuts in the state


----------



## Tgace (Aug 15, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Yeah best donuts in the state



Small world...I'm returning my daughter to St Johns next week. She was talking about that shop just the other day.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## MJS (Aug 15, 2012)

Wo Fat said:


> Shouldn't be too much of a surprise.  Racial profiling isn't limited to the airports; it's also a fact of law enforcement life on the streets.  Some say that it's not about the "race" of the various groups targeted, but that it's just good common sense.  Middle Easterners tend to commit terrorist acts, Latinos/Hispanics tend to run drugs, and Blacks tend to be generally criminally inclined.  Or so goes the rationale.
> 
> Did I leave anyone out?



No, you're right....it happens all over.  There was a big issue not long ago, with a PD here in CT, regarding RP.  I dont know if every PD does this, but the cops where I work, fill out a paper every time they do a MV stop, with the race, sex, etc, of the driver.  Supposedly someone is supposed to review them to ensure RP isn't happening.


----------



## ballen0351 (Aug 15, 2012)

Tgace said:


> Small world...I'm returning my daughter to St Johns next week. She was talking about that shop just the other day.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


No kidding that is cool.  You will be in my neck of the woods


----------



## ballen0351 (Aug 15, 2012)

MJS said:


> No, you're right....it happens all over.  There was a big issue not long ago, with a PD here in CT, regarding RP.  I dont know if every PD does this, but the cops where I work, fill out a paper every time they do a MV stop, with the race, sex, etc, of the driver.  Supposedly someone is supposed to review them to ensure RP isn't happening.



Yeah we have been doing them for the last 10 years at least. All it did was make officers target a certain race so their stats showed equal distribution so if I stopped two cars and they both happened to be driven by a minority I'd then go look for 4 white people to even out my numbers its was a joke to me.  I stop people because I see a violation not because of what color the driver is


----------



## Wo Fat (Aug 16, 2012)

MJS said:


> No, you're right....it happens all over.  There was a big issue not long ago, with a PD here in CT, regarding RP.  I dont know if every PD does this, but the cops where I work, fill out a paper every time they do a MV stop, with the race, sex, etc, of the driver.  Supposedly someone is supposed to review them to ensure RP isn't happening.



I've heard of several studies that have concluded that Blacks, Latinos and some Asians are stopped or detained at a higher frequency, and yet are arrested *less* than Whites who are stopped or detained for similar reasons.  It would seem then, that the remedy for that is pretty much what ballen0351 just stated:  cops have to "go out of their way" to find Whites to pull over so that things appear balanced.

Seems to me that if we balanced our presumptions, then we could balance out the stops/pull-overs.  But it seems that balance may be too much of a burden?


----------



## David43515 (Aug 17, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> You know what I look for most often.  A car with 3 or more white people usually 1 female with tags that come back to a town at least 35 min away sitting in a grocery store parking lot but not going inside 9 out of 10 tines they are waiting for dope



This is why I like the older original term "statistical profiling". If the majority of crime in a certain area are done by a certain group (either race or age group) then they do warrant a little more attention. As long as probable cause is met and people's rights are respected I've got little problem with it.  I know that I get more attention from the police and security when I dress a certain way or when I wear my hair a certain way. I accept that as long as they don't violate the law or my rights.


----------



## Wo Fat (Aug 17, 2012)

David43515 said:


> This is why I like the older original term "statistical profiling". If the majority of crime in a certain area are done by a certain group (either race or age group) then they do warrant a little more attention. As long as probable cause is met and people's rights are respected I've got little problem with it.  I know that I get more attention from the police and security when I dress a certain way or when I wear my hair a certain way. I accept that as long as they don't violate the law or my rights.



Statistical profiling is fine.  Pedophiles, embezzlers, con men, snipers and mass murderers tend to come from a certain group, so as long as we place them under the same permanent level of suspicion, then it balances out.  Otherwise, it's a convenient justification for profiling everyone else.

And yes, one can garner more attention from law enforcement depending on how they choose to dress.  At the same time, one can't change their color or ethnicity.  Yet they're still worthy of "statistical" attention.


----------

