# Wing chun legitimacy.



## Dummy (Jun 7, 2013)

This wing chun "sifu" is talking about closing the gap , but what he demonstrates is just walking into a guy and overpowering him because of his size , is this even wing chun? , is the tkd guy being too humble? or is the WC guy being too cocky? Bottom line , because of the attitude that the wing chun guy posseses at the end of the video i felt like i came out respecting the tkd guy more just because he was raising a valid argument that was being replied with considerable agression. And frankly just looking at how unfit the wing chun instructor is, its embarrassing , the guy almost tripped himself over twice, you can also notice how out of breath he was after the demonstration. Well i may not have the best eye for detail so your opinions would be a great means of insight.


----------



## hunt1 (Jun 7, 2013)

First it doesnt matter how fat etc the guy is.  Is what he does effect and will it be effective for others is the questions. The entry he uses is not based on his size and is one way a closing the gap that can work. Notice is slow motion he steps in and uses por cheung/pak/gum to intercept and control the karate guy's lead arm. By controlling the arm he gains control of the cog and the okarate guy is caught trying to kick and is prevented from kicking. 

 Now does the wing chun guy get away with slppy technique because of his size? Yes. Could his structure be better? yes. But the technique  is legit.






Dummy said:


> This wing chun "sifu" is talking about closing the gap , but what he demonstrates is just walking into a guy and overpowering him because of his size , is this even wing chun? , is the tkd guy being too humble? or is the WC guy being too cocky? Bottom line , because of the attitude that the wing chun guy posseses at the end of the video i felt like i came out respecting the tkd guy more just because he was raising a valid argument that was being replied with considerable agression. And frankly just looking at how unfit the wing chun instructor is, its embarrassing , the guy almost tripped himself over twice, you can also notice how out of breath he was after the demonstration. Well i may not have the best eye for detail so your opinions would be a great means of insight.


----------



## Dummy (Jun 8, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> First it doesnt matter how fat etc the guy is.  Is what he does effect and will it be effective for others is the questions. The entry he uses is not based on his size and is one way a closing the gap that can work. Notice is slow motion he steps in and uses por cheung/pak/gum to intercept and control the karate guy's lead arm. By controlling the arm he gains control of the cog and the okarate guy is caught trying to kick and is prevented from kicking.
> 
> Now does the wing chun guy get away with slppy technique because of his size? Yes. Could his structure be better? yes. But the technique  is legit.



I don't have anything against the guy ... so ... answer me this , would you consider learning from this guy?


----------



## K-man (Jun 8, 2013)

Whatever you might think of the WC guy, the karate guy was crap. Throwing half **** kicks like that is what you might expect a beginner to do in hs first tournament. I seriously doubt his bb status. Also against an opponent with the bulk of the WC guy you can't just go backwards. You will be over run as happened here. You need to move off the line. 

Would I consider learning from this guy? Maybe, but there wasn't enough detail in the video to make that decision. :asian:


----------



## Cyriacus (Jun 8, 2013)

K-man said:


> Also against an opponent with the bulk of the WC guy you can't just go backwards. You will be over run as happened here. You need to move off the line.



Id like to add that you could also just dig straight in if you dont have faith in your ability to move to offsets. Its better than failing at the 'better' option. Moving forward takes a bit less 'skill'.


----------



## hunt1 (Jun 8, 2013)

Dummy said:


> I don't have anything against the guy ... so ... answer me this , would you consider learning from this guy?




Loaded question. Now? Today? No, I am not aware of anyone I would pay to learn from at this point but then I am listed on the martial altar of Lo Kwai's family as a descendent of Leung Jan's Wing Chun tradition through his second in all challenges Lo Kwai. Our  wing chun can be a bit different then what you usually see. 
 If this was 1983 again and I was just starting out and he was the local wing chun teacher then yes because I wanted to learn wing chun. I was lucky my first teacher was a student of Jui Won and then one of Moy Yats first US disciples. He had a very open attitude about wing chun and always said some wing chun is better than no wing chun.


----------



## Dummy (Jun 8, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> Loaded question. Now? Today? No, I am not aware of anyone I would pay to learn from at this point but then I am listed on the martial altar of Lo Kwai's family as a descendent of Leung Jan's Wing Chun tradition through his second in all challenges Lo Kwai. Our  wing chun can be a bit different then what you usually see.
> If this was 1983 again and I was just starting out and he was the local wing chun teacher then yes because I wanted to learn wing chun. I was lucky my first teacher was a student of Jui Won and then one of Moy Yats first US disciples. He had a very open attitude about wing chun and always said some wing chun is better than no wing chun.



I'm slightly envious of you :S you can train with people ... and perhaps people come to you for training too... not many Wc practitioners where im from, but if this guy taught locally i wouldn't learn from him unless i really got to know the guy, one video isn't enough to judge someone but some times a little tells you a whole lot more than a lot...if you feel the question was loaded i couldn't have known since i had no idea about your back ground in Wing Chun.


----------



## Dummy (Jun 8, 2013)

K-man said:


> Whatever you might think of the WC guy, the karate guy was crap. Throwing half **** kicks like that is what you might expect a beginner to do in hs first tournament. I seriously doubt his bb status. Also against an opponent with the bulk of the WC guy you can't just go backwards. You will be over run as happened here. You need to move off the line.
> 
> Would I consider learning from this guy? Maybe, but there wasn't enough detail in the video to make that decision. :asian:



i can't really comment on whether one should step in or out since i have a very unorthodox way of fighting but imo what i think the karate guy was doing was asking how he would come in rather than actually trying to throw kicks , not that im trying to defend the karate guy , its just how i interpreted the situation and my opinion is as valid to me as yours is to you. hmmm someone i would really like to train under is this guy right here.

I haven't seen this done before , anywhere. is it really possible to be this good at manipulating chi?


----------



## Dummy (Jun 8, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Id like to add that you could also just dig straight in if you dont have faith in your ability to move to offsets. Its better than failing at the 'better' option. Moving forward takes a bit less 'skill'.



Cant comment on moving in or out since i have a very unorthodox style of fighting.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jun 9, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> First it doesnt matter how fat etc the guy is.  Is what he does effect and will it be effective for others is the questions. The entry he uses is not based on his size and is one way a closing the gap that can work. Notice is slow motion he steps in and uses por cheung/pak/gum to intercept and control the karate guy's lead arm. By controlling the arm he gains control of the cog and the okarate guy is caught trying to kick and is prevented from kicking.
> 
> Now does the wing chun guy get away with slppy technique because of his size? Yes. Could his structure be better? yes. But the technique  is legit.





------------------------------------------------------------------

Agree with Hunt 1. Shannon Moore is a William Cheung TWC guy-not my kind of wc but it's legit.
Sure Moore is big but if he did not know what he was doing he would be in trouble.

joy chaudhuri


----------



## Cyriacus (Jun 9, 2013)

Dummy said:


> Cant comment on moving in or out since i have a very unorthodox style of fighting.



Depends on your definition of orthodox


----------



## K-man (Jun 9, 2013)

Dummy said:


> hmmm someone i would really like to train under is this guy right here.
> 
> I haven't seen this done before , anywhere. is it really possible to be this good at manipulating chi?


Until I feel it first hand I will reserve my judgement. I have seen and felt some amazing things but this is beyond my experience. :asian:


----------



## Dummy (Jun 9, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Depends on your definition of orthodox



hehe ... guess so.


----------



## Dummy (Jun 9, 2013)

K-man said:


> Until I feel it first hand I will reserve my judgement. I have seen and felt some amazing things but this is beyond my experience. :asian:



Mine too,  thats why it feels so amazing ... but i have very solid reasons to believe that the chi manipulation technique shown in the video is legit and i've also found out that it requires a lot of practice in meditation of the void meditation concept(sorry don't know the buddhist name for the meditation technique) but in essence it means to be behind everything and not being behind everything , at first it sounds contradictory but when you meditate on it.. well that a whole other thread , so i will speak no more of it here.


----------



## Dummy (Jun 9, 2013)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Agree with Hunt 1. Shannon Moore is a William Cheung TWC guy-not my kind of wc but it's legit.
> Sure Moore is big but if he did not know what he was doing he would be in trouble.
> ...



Fair enough.


----------



## yak sao (Jun 9, 2013)

I watched the video and from what I can tell the karate guy was pushing straight in, allowing the tai chi guy to redirect his force straight into the ground. Whereas the WC guy pushed him up and back, causing him to become uprooted. WC is all about proper structure /body alignment and good body mechanics. The more one masters this, the more subtle it becomes and the more magical it looks.                                                                                                                                                                                   https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wing-Tsun-Chinese-Boxing-of-Kentucky/392054967486652


----------



## Tames D (Jun 9, 2013)

The best fighting is not always pretty. And guys in bad shape are not always bad fighters. My experience is the "fat guys kick some ***". Now, this demonstration was sloppy in my opinion. But the Wing Chun guy was effective against a karate guy that just looked rediculous. Didn't even try to protect his face and as a result got nailed a couple of times. Maybe he wasn't expecting to get hit because it was a demonstration, but that shows me his inexperience, along with his poor execution.


----------



## Dummy (Jun 10, 2013)

yak sao said:


> I watched the video and from what I can tell the karate guy was pushing straight in, allowing the tai chi guy to redirect his force straight into the ground. Whereas the WC guy pushed him up and back, causing him to become uprooted. WC is all about proper structure /body alignment and good body mechanics. The more one masters this, the more subtle it becomes and the more magical it looks.                                                                                                                                                                                   https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wing-Tsun-Chinese-Boxing-of-Kentucky/392054967486652



That's a very interesting observation and perhaps a valid one , i'm going to do some more research about this and i'll get back to you. The reason i want to research this is because i also have my doubts.


----------



## Dummy (Jun 10, 2013)

Tames D said:


> The best fighting is not always pretty. And guys in bad shape are not always bad fighters. My experience is the "fat guys kick some ***". Now, this demonstration was sloppy in my opinion. But the Wing Chun guy was effective against a karate guy that just looked rediculous. Didn't even try to protect his face and as a result got nailed a couple of times. Maybe he wasn't expecting to get hit because it was a demonstration, but that shows me his inexperience, along with his poor execution.



Maybe both of them were sloppy , even if they were think about this for a second , imagine the tkd guy being twice as large and the wing chun guy , how would he close the gap from long range then? you see the question went unanswered.


----------



## Eric_H (Jun 10, 2013)

Dummy said:


> This wing chun "sifu" is talking about closing the gap , but what he demonstrates is just walking into a guy and overpowering him because of his size , is this even wing chun? , is the tkd guy being too humble? or is the WC guy being too cocky? Bottom line , because of the attitude that the wing chun guy posseses at the end of the video i felt like i came out respecting the tkd guy more just because he was raising a valid argument that was being replied with considerable agression. And frankly just looking at how unfit the wing chun instructor is, its embarrassing , the guy almost tripped himself over twice, you can also notice how out of breath he was after the demonstration. Well i may not have the best eye for detail so your opinions would be a great means of insight.



Don't go to somebody's seminar and try and tell them "your ***** is fake" in a passive agressive manner and you won't get hit. If the guy was sincere, he could have asked to follow up with it after the seminar rather than trying to make a it a big deal in front of everyone.

Shannon Moore carries a lot of extra weight, but the dude seems to be no BS. From some of his training videos, looks like he's reasonably strong under the outer shell too.

*EDIT*
Also remember that we're only seeing a bit of it, for all we know that karate guy was being a jerk all day. Seen that before.


----------



## hunt1 (Jun 10, 2013)

Dummy said:


> I'm slightly envious of you :S you can train with people ... and perhaps people come to you for training too... not many Wc practitioners where im from, but if this guy taught locally i wouldn't learn from him unless i really got to know the guy, one video isn't enough to judge someone but some times a little tells you a whole lot more than a lot...if you feel the question was loaded i couldn't have known since i had no idea about your back ground in Wing Chun.



 Question was loaded in the sense that I try to comment on the wing chun I see only. Not the person in the video. I try not to get personal. I understand your point and probably agree but it's  hard to know what is going on before and after.


----------



## Dummy (Jun 11, 2013)

Eric_H said:


> Don't go to somebody's seminar and try and tell them "your ***** is fake" in a passive agressive manner and you won't get hit. If the guy was sincere, he could have asked to follow up with it after the seminar rather than trying to make a it a big deal in front of everyone.
> 
> Shannon Moore carries a lot of extra weight, but the dude seems to be no BS. From some of his training videos, looks like he's reasonably strong under the outer shell too.
> 
> ...



Or maybe they were both jerks LoL


----------



## Dummy (Jun 11, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> Question was loaded in the sense that I try to comment on the wing chun I see only. Not the person in the video. I try not to get personal. I understand your point and probably agree but it's  hard to know what is going on before and after.



Thats true.


----------



## Josealb (Jun 11, 2013)

Dummy said:


> Mine too,  thats why it feels so amazing ... but i have very solid reasons to believe that the chi manipulation technique shown in the video is legit and i've also found out that it requires a lot of practice in meditation of the void meditation concept(sorry don't know the buddhist name for the meditation technique) but in essence it means to be behind everything and not being behind everything , at first it sounds contradictory but when you meditate on it.. well that a whole other thread , so i will speak no more of it here.




State your reasons. If they start with:

A)I have seen many clips of him...
B)I was told by a friend of mine....
c)I read in a book that...
D)In my opinion, he...

Those reasons are simply put, bullocks. 

Heres a bit of homework for you:

The trick works!  





The trick doesnt work when its tested...





The trick is shown as a trick.


----------



## Eric_H (Jun 11, 2013)

Dummy said:


> Or maybe they were both jerks LoL



Also possible. But after seeing how Moore tried profusely to apologize after he smacked that shaolin guy at the temple celebration and even took a few hits to help him save face, he doesn't strike me as a bad dude.

Then again, we all have our days... lol


----------



## Dummy (Jun 12, 2013)

Josealb said:


> State your reasons. If they start with:
> 
> A)I have seen many clips of him...
> B)I was told by a friend of mine....
> ...



So you're saying its all the power of suggestion and that since they expect to be hit they feel like they are hit?


----------



## Dummy (Jun 12, 2013)

Eric_H said:


> Also possible. But after seeing how Moore tried profusely to apologize after he smacked that shaolin guy at the temple celebration and even took a few hits to help him save face, he doesn't strike me as a bad dude.
> 
> Then again, we all have our days... lol



yeah i checked out some of his other things , he doesn't seem like a bad dude.


----------



## Josealb (Jun 12, 2013)

Dummy said:


> So you're saying its all the power of suggestion and that since they expect to be hit they feel like they are hit?



Its exactly what im saying. Lots of people have been put to the test on this type of things...works like a charm with their own students, but it never works on outsiders or strangers. Psychology is amazing, isnt it?


----------



## Dummy (Jun 12, 2013)

Josealb said:


> Its exactly what im saying. Lots of people have been put to the test on this type of things...works like a charm with their own students, but it never works on outsiders or strangers. Psychology is amazing, isnt it?



Ok i've seen the videos and you haven't explained one thing , rather your videos haven't , they don't disprove the existence of Chi , cultivated through meditation as an example i can tell you that half of china uses certain chi techniques to heal certain diseases ... well ... do you mean to say chi doesn't exhist? that its all in our heads?


----------



## Steve (Jun 12, 2013)

Dummy said:


> Ok i've seen the videos and you haven't explained one thing , rather your videos haven't , they don't disprove the existence of Chi , cultivated through meditation as an example i can tell you that half of china uses certain chi techniques to heal certain diseases ... well ... do you mean to say chi doesn't exhist? that its all in our heads?



The mind is incredibly powerful and had a lot of influence over the body.  

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## StormShadow (Jun 12, 2013)

Dummy said:


> Ok i've seen the videos and you haven't explained one thing , rather your videos haven't , they don't disprove the existence of Chi , cultivated through meditation as an example i can tell you that half of china uses certain chi techniques to heal certain diseases ... well ... do you mean to say chi doesn't exhist? that its all in our heads?



I do not know what to say after seeing this.  Absolutely amazing.  I am able to generate a lot of heat into the center of my hand but thats about it.  His chi is amazing.


----------



## Josealb (Jun 13, 2013)

Dummy said:


> Ok i've seen the videos and you haven't explained one thing , rather your videos haven't , they don't disprove the existence of Chi , cultivated through meditation as an example i can tell you that half of china uses certain chi techniques to heal certain diseases ... well ... do you mean to say chi doesn't exhist? that its all in our heads?



I dont remember talking about chi at all, read again. =)


----------



## Dummy (Jun 13, 2013)

Josealb said:


> I dont remember talking about chi at all, read again. =)



Haha don't cop out , thats exactly my point , your videos don't explain chi , derren brown is pretty good at putting on a show , but my initial theory still stands at one focal point i believe that dondrup dorje was using his chi rather than the power of suggestion as opposed to derren brown.


----------



## geezer (Jun 13, 2013)

I'm not sure what any of these "displays" have to do with the OP ...or with WC/WT/VT. The WC I learned is very down-to-earth and practical. The techniques could be explained equally well using a traditional Chinese approach or a modern Western approach. The essential  part is that _they work_. Forget the magic tricks already!


----------



## Dummy (Jun 13, 2013)

geezer said:


> I'm not sure what any of these "displays" have to do with the OP ...or with WC/WT/VT. The WC I learned is very down-to-earth and practical. The techniques could be explained equally well using a traditional Chinese approach or a modern Western approach. The essential  part is that _they work_. Forget the magic tricks already!



you're probably right.


----------



## Dummy (Jun 14, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> I do not know what to say after seeing this.  Absolutely amazing.  I am able to generate a lot of heat into the center of my hand but thats about it.  His chi is amazing.



Well that's quite amazing too!


----------



## StormShadow (Jun 14, 2013)

geezer said:


> I'm not sure what any of these "displays" have to do with the OP ...or with WC/WT/VT. The WC I learned is very down-to-earth and practical. The techniques could be explained equally well using a traditional Chinese approach or a modern Western approach. The essential  part is that _they work_. Forget the magic tricks already!



I think it certainly has a play in Wing Chun.  Mastering the art (if it is such a thing) is one thing but mastering yourself is another.  Imagine how one could increase their effectiveness in every movement, deflection, application of wing chun if you could tap into yourself in this fashion.  You could deflect an attack and shock your opponent upon touching him or hit him and displace energy throughout his entire body from one hit.  Granted this would have to be done very quickly but my point is, if learned it could help one's wing chun making it that much more effective.


----------



## wtxs (Jun 14, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> I do not know what to say after seeing this.  Absolutely amazing.  I am able to generate a lot of *heat* into the *center* *of* my *hand* but thats about it.  His chi is amazing.



I have experience with that all the time as millions of people had ... it's call inflammation caused by arthritis.


----------



## StormShadow (Jun 14, 2013)

lol... I have that too (maybe) go figure.


----------



## wtxs (Jun 14, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> lol... I have that too (maybe) go figure.



It's all good, we all appreciate people with an sense of humor.  Now if we can get back on track with OP's subject.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jun 14, 2013)

wtxs said:


> It's all good, we all appreciate people with an sense of humor.  Now if we can get back on track with OP's subject.



=============================================

Those magic videos are far odd the subject.


----------



## Dummy (Jun 15, 2013)

Vajramusti said:


> =============================================
> 
> Those magic videos are far odd the subject.



Indeed they are ... lets not speak of that here.


----------

