# No kicks in Aikido



## Yari (Mar 1, 2004)

In most of the styles of Aikido I've seen, there are no kicks.

Any ideas to why?

/Yari


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## MisterMike (Mar 1, 2004)

I think for the same reason ther are no strikes in some Aikido schools. They do not believe in hitting. Or the atemi is simply "understood to be there."

Some Aikido schools do show the atemi, but they are rarely kicks. 90% of Aikido Techniques will not work without atemi first. The founder would back that up.

Perhps they thought feet should stay on the ground.

Aiki-JuJutsu on the other hand...


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## Yari (Mar 1, 2004)

Yes I do agree, 

I havn't found a Aikido school that does defence against a kick.

I've heard some teachers say that kicking is primative, but having that attitude doesn't help against people who kick.

But that's not what I would like to discuss, I would just like to hear from different people why there are no kicks in Aikido.

/Yari


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## theletch1 (Mar 1, 2004)

Yari, Nihon Goshin has basic front and side kicks but no high kicks or spinning type kicks.  We do have a couple of defense techniques against kicks.  They are basic blending and balance breaking defenses and work quite well.  I believe (and this is just my opinion) that lifting your feet high enough to deliver a good kick is thought to remove too much of the balance needed for taisubaki (sp).  As the vast majority of techniques depends on the adroitness of hands and handwork the kicks have just been relegated to a "last resort" when being overwhelmed.  I have a background in kenpo and have found that by utilizing the kicks of kenpo during randori that my job becomes much easier as far as defending myself.  The question you ask is one I've asked myself many times.


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## MisterMike (Mar 1, 2004)

Yari said:
			
		

> Yes I do agree,
> 
> I havn't found a Aikido school that does defence against a kick.
> 
> ...




Perhaps I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking why there were no kicks used to defend yourself.

As for defending against kick attacks, I have seen this but not as frequently as punch attacks. The reason you see more hand attacks is because most people can grab with their hands and not their feet, (unless they are some sort of primate).

But most Aikido techniques taught require you to grab their hand/wrist to execute the throws, not the foot/ankle. Doesn't mean you can't do Irimi against a kick though. Guess it depends on the school/teacher.


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## theletch1 (Mar 1, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Perhaps I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking why there were no kicks used to defend yourself.
> 
> As for defending against kick attacks, I have seen this but not as frequently as punch attacks. The reason you see more hand attacks is because most people can grab with their hands and not their feet, (unless they are some sort of primate).
> 
> But most Aikido techniques taught require you to grab their hand/wrist to execute the throws, not the foot/ankle. Doesn't mean you can't do Irimi against a kick though. Guess it depends on the school/teacher.


Have ya taken a good look at some of the "apes" hanging around town these days?  You just can't see the opposable big toe 'cause of the shoes.   :uhyeah: 

As for defending against a kick, I agree that we have a couple of defenses but not many and most likely for the reasons Mike listed.  I've yet to find a "complete" art so I tend to seek out like minded individuals and take what we've learned and put it together to augment our official training.  I'm lucky in that my sensei encourages this so long as I don't confuse folks in class with it.  I'm allowed free access to the dojo when it's not in use to get together with the folks and train and he is always open minded to whatever we have to show him before or after class.  We don't throw it out during class so as not to interfere with the training of other students.  I know this doesn't answer the "why" of your question but it may give you an idea of "how to get around" this apparent deficiency.


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## babaker (Mar 1, 2004)

Yari said:
			
		

> In most of the styles of Aikido I've seen, there are no kicks.
> 
> Any ideas to why?
> 
> /Yari



You are kidding, right?

Any opening that comes up can allow an insertion of kicks, punches, strikes of any type you have a mind to add, but MOST aikido schools don't teach this.  It is almost an unwritten law that one do that research and training either before taking aikido or for oneself outside of aikido class.

A kick is the first thing a Ni-dan or san-dan does when an opening appears, I know because I have left an opening just to see if they would take the bait, and they do ... again, and again, and again.

Don't listen to people who say you can't mix martial arts, because all people mix techniques even if they are modified or taylored to fit the timing and style of another martial art.


I really wish this stupid test would catch fire and set the the pants on fire of those who still tell these lies that certain arts are either non-violent, or can't be adapted and changed.  It is getting old ...


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## theletch1 (Mar 2, 2004)

babaker said:
			
		

> You are kidding, right?
> 
> Any opening that comes up can allow an insertion of kicks, punches, strikes of any type you have a mind to add, but MOST aikido schools don't teach this.  It is almost an unwritten law that one do that research and training either before taking aikido or for oneself outside of aikido class.
> 
> ...


Nope, he wasn't kidding, but, knowing Yari, he was simply asking what our opinions were as to why this isn't taught as part of the curriculum.  I do agree that it is usually considered the responsibility of the practitioner to research these things on his own, or to have studied another art before aikido.  I've heard it said that to truly appreciate aikido that it is important that it be a second art.  I know that this is true in my case.  There are many subtleties that I would have missed altogether or not gotten until much later in my training had I not trained in another style beforehand.  I mix styles all the time during multiple attacker drills and it works well.  I'd also have to agree with you that the idea that aikido is a soft and gentle art is getting rather old.  However, I'm of the opinion that should someone realize that I study aikido and choose to believe that that makes me less able to defend myself then so be it.  Underestimate me all you want...it just makes my job that much easier.


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## Yari (Mar 3, 2004)

True,

I wasn't kidding.

It was my honest attempt to hear other peoples opionen.

I've praticed other arts than Aikido, so I feel I have a feeling of which opnings there are.

Using Atemi, is one thing, defending against an atemi or attack is something else.

Even if I feel that kicking high, or cicurlar (sp?), might leave me open. People who might attack me, dont nessarly think that.

The old evade, and pull uke in the direction of his bad balance is an "old" technique which I know. But that wasn't what I was thinking of. Had more or less just "forgotten" it, and was thinking of more advance possibilties.

But, reading your post Jeff, that when kicking high the possiblity of evading shrinks (my wording based on what you wrote), sounds good. I think you have a good point there!!!!!!!

Thansk guys for the good input!

/Yari


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## MisterMike (Mar 10, 2004)

For a brief discussion on kicks in Aikido, see "Best Aikido" by Moriteru Ueshiba.

One point mentions that to kick goes against having a unified center with the earth. To do this, you need both feet on the ground.

But there are certainly techniques for use with a kicking opponent.


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## Yari (Mar 11, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> For a brief discussion on kicks in Aikido, see "Best Aikido" by Moriteru Ueshiba.
> 
> One point mentions that to kick goes against having a unified center with the earth. To do this, you need both feet on the ground.
> 
> But there are certainly techniques for use with a kicking opponent.



Sounds OK. Keeping your center.

Could you elaborate on the techniques you see in Aikido against a kicking opponent?


/Yari


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## Jas (Mar 11, 2004)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> Yari, Nihon Goshin has basic front and side kicks but no high kicks or spinning type kicks.  ]
> 
> I used to study Nihon Goshin Aikido, it is an excellant style I am a green belt (the first rank to learn kicking defenses) these are very effective!!! as for the spinning and high kicks we do practice them often (my Sensei was a blackbelt in ishonryu(?) Karate before he studied Aikido. I am still with the same Sensei (Jerry Phelps) he has started his own style, it is called Nihon Goshinjutsu Aikido. It is all the Nihon Goshin Aikido with alot of Juijitsu(?) sorry for all the bad spelling!!!! You can check it out at Aikidobuff.com.
> 
> John


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## Shogun (Apr 14, 2004)

The Kicks I know of that are commonly used in Aikido are:
Mae Geri - front kick
yoko Geri - side kick
mawashi geri - roundhouse kick

Usually these kicks are used at higher levels. to me it would make more sense to introduce them sooner. However, as a self-defense, I have never seen anyone kick at me in a street fight.
There might be more Atemi in the Aiki I practice. It is actually a Bujutsu form (Ideta Ryu)


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## buddah_belly (Apr 15, 2004)

> I havn't found a Aikido school that does defence against a kick.


We do.


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## theletch1 (Apr 15, 2004)

buddah_belly said:
			
		

> We do.


Most styles do.  As JAS stated Nihon Goshin does at green belt level and above although many students will experiment with defenses at lower levels on their own.  I have a kenpo back ground so I have been known to use some old kenpo defenses in a line.  My classmates know my history so they will throw a kick out there now and then just to see my reaction.  I really enjoy taking a kenpo tech/defense and transitioning into an aikido technique.


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## Yari (Apr 16, 2004)

I'd love to try practicing your style, Jeff.

/Yari


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## theletch1 (Apr 16, 2004)

Yari said:
			
		

> I'd love to try practicing your style, Jeff.
> 
> /Yari


Yari, pack up the family and move to the states! :uhyeah:   We've always got room for one more crash test dummy, er I mean, aikido-ka at the dojo.


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## ShhDragon@sprynet.com (Nov 4, 2004)

Sure there are kicks!

The trouble arises when we think a tsuki is a thrust punch and a Yokomenuchi is a strike to the temple with the pinky edge of the fist. These two terms (tsuki and yokomenuchi) as well as others such as shomenuchi do not refer to types of fist strikes. They refer to directions of energies. Notably, we often express these energies as punches.

Often the question you asked leads us to wonder: "Do you have techniques for locking an ankle because my kotegaeshi likely would fail on those fat ankles of uke's?" We lock the wrist in kotegaeshi often because it is a relatively simple matter. But these waza refer not to wrist locks but the shapes/directions and their energies. Kotegaeshi does not refer to a wristlock rather it refers to a series of energies, directions, and intentions required to offer the ground to uke in a given circumstance.



-Stephen Watson


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## Paul B (Nov 4, 2004)

True enough.

Tsuki simply means "thrust" in any direction,but it needs a qualifier,such as shomen(front of head) or mune(middle of body).

 Same goes for the other strikes you mentioned,but by adding "men" and "uchi" to "sho" or "yoko"... you get strike to side or front of head. If you want to talk specific energies I would think it would be yoko(side) or mae(front) or mawashi(enwrapping or circling).

I do know what you mean,though. 

As far as kote gaeshi or "wrist return/reversal",I think that not only describes the lock but the motion and theory behind it.

And...yes there are kicks in Aikido,but you don't see them often.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 4, 2004)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> I mix styles all the time during multiple attacker drills .


ditto and I only have about 5 mths ish of formal aikido myself, but remember that any jutsu is based on "submission" philosophy which a kick hardly conforms to. Still wouldn't be without my feet but I also value my little ninjutsu training ( and am about to get back into it with a haatsumi bujinkan branch) and wondered the same thing about that. They are both from the same base system ( if chinese origin doesn't count) and when it hit Japan, was omitted or downplayed for a reason. ..........  just as wing chun has only 4 kicks( ???) but that 's a whole new thread.


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## Yari (Nov 5, 2004)

ShhDragon@sprynet.com said:
			
		

> Sure there are kicks!
> 
> The trouble arises when we think a tsuki is a thrust punch and a Yokomenuchi is a strike to the temple with the pinky edge of the fist. These two terms (tsuki and yokomenuchi) as well as others such as shomenuchi do not refer to types of fist strikes. They refer to directions of energies. Notably, we often express these energies as punches.
> 
> ...



I do agree on the energi issue, but I've come to the understanding that it's not just a question of how the energi flows, but also how it's connected to the center of movement.

Let's look at Yokomen, which is an energi from the "side". Some poeple say that all techniques that are done from the "side" are representiv in yokomen. I so not so easy. 

In yokomen, as an attacker, your elbow is pointing down. this gives another form for body posture behind the attack. Compare this to a roundhouse punch(cant remember what it's called), which also has energi from the side, but the elbow is pointing out to the side. This gives the body another posture, and movement behind the punch.

Now if we look at the leg. The knee represents the elbow. This is totaly different in hight and movement than an arm, where as the movement of the thecnique cant just be adopted directly.

/Yari


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 5, 2004)

I attended one of Saotome's classes in Washington D.C.  In the middle of it he had everybody do a side kick.  When he demonstrated it, it was technically flawless.

I don't know why he had us do it.  Perhaps he was going to teach people a defense against it down the road.  I was only a guest and wasn't around to find out.


Regards,

Steve


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## dosandojang (Nov 27, 2004)

But I have SEEN

  Steven Seagal

 kick in his movies!


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## still learning (Nov 28, 2004)

Hello, This is interesting about Aikido,thanks....Aloha


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## BlackCatBonz (Nov 28, 2004)

well....i know there are a lot of people out there that hate seagal.....but if you watch any videos of him in action at his dojo........especially older ones.....he teaces quite a few kick defenses.....and they are brutally effective. check out a documentary called "the path beyond thought"

shawn


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## dosandojang (Nov 29, 2004)

Thanks Shawn!


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## Silver_Mongoose (May 20, 2005)

I believe it was O'Sensei himself that said something to the effect of the following: "If you use a chair to defend yourself, and extend your Ki through the chair, it is an Aikido technique."

In terms of kicks themselves, I have never been to a class that did not use them in some shape or form. My instructor actually insisted on breaking down every technique into component parts and building them back up to respond to a variety of attacks, strikes of all kinds being included.

It is true that many aikidoka practice with the notion that hand and leg strikes are implicit in the technique. However, I see no reason to train without actually applying strikes. It is downright scary what an otherwise "ordinary" technique ends up looking and feeling like once one incorporates the strikes.

That's what I love about Aikido--it's like Lego, you can add or subtract pieces when doing a technique, depending on your need/circumstances.


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## Shogun (May 22, 2005)

The aiki form I used to practice used the legs a lot. Not just for kicks/defending from kicks, but defended kicks from the ground, and even used shikko to move into a grounded opponent, much like BJJ's knee-on-belly position. one class we used the ikkyo motion to cut a leg out of the way when the person is on their back, bicycle kicking up at you.


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## 47MartialMan (May 23, 2005)

I have seen advanced Akidoist use kicks. they are not high or fancy. They are either straight, side steppng, sweeping, and effective, without waste of energy or movement.


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## Yari (May 25, 2005)

Can you remember were? Or if you have any vid's to share?

/Yari


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## 47MartialMan (May 25, 2005)

Yari said:
			
		

> Can you remember were? Or if you have any vid's to share?
> 
> /Yari


Who are you posting to?


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## Shogun (May 26, 2005)

advanced aikidoka usually use a side step kick. as the Uke enters, Nage throws a mid round kick and usually follows up with Kaiten Nage or similar/


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## Yari (May 30, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Who are you posting to?




To your post. Just wondering if you had anything on vid, I thought it would be very interessting to see.

/Yari


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## 47MartialMan (May 30, 2005)

Man, I had *briefly* studied Aikido at a time when video cameras were limited to TV networks. When a bulky "portable" public comsumer video camera came out, I had since left Aikido. My training in it is not to par, but when I was involved, I did observe advance practitioners practice also, such were some kicks. I will not lay claim to being skilled in it.


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