# Omaha Ne Mall shooting



## BrandiJo (Dec 5, 2007)

http://www.ketv.com/news/14782867/detail.html

I just don't know what to think. I shopped at that mall. I grew up in that area, and had i not moved to Oregon there is a good chance i could have been there today.


----------



## Sukerkin (Dec 5, 2007)

Altho' there will ever be 'what if's' that fill our lives, I am very glad that on this occaision we do not have to speculate or pray for the safety of someone we know through the fora.


----------



## terryl965 (Dec 5, 2007)

Another incident linked to anti-depressants. May they all rest in peace.


----------



## BrandiJo (Dec 5, 2007)

Yes fortunately i got an all clear call from my mom. She assured me that no one we knew was out and about today. 

Those poor people so close to Christmas.


----------



## CoryKS (Dec 6, 2007)

From the reports, it sounds like yet another precious snowflake unable to cope with the reality of his own insignificance.  *spit*


----------



## MJS (Dec 6, 2007)

Taken from my paper today:
http://www.courant.com/news/nationworld/ats-ap_top11dec06,0,5107457.story

A few things that caught my eye:



> Robert A. Hawkins, 19, had recently split with his girlfriend and been fired from McDonald's. He had a criminal record and had left or been kicked out of his parents' house.


 


> Maruca-Kovac said Hawkins had recently broken up with a girlfriend and was fired from McDonald's. She told the World-Herald that Hawkins said he had been fired after being accused of stealing $17 from his till at the restaurant. McDonald's management declined to comment to the newspaper.


 


> "When he first came in the house, he was introverted, a troubled young man who was like a lost pound puppy that nobody wanted," Maruca-Kovac told The Associated Press.


 

This young man definately had some issues, but unfortunately, it seems like he wasn't getting any help.  Then again, helping someone is a 2-way street.  In other words...you can offer someone all the help in the world, but if they're not willing to accept it, its not going to do any good.  

People control their own life.  Unless his parents were complete cold hearted individuals, I doubt they kicked him out for no apparent reason.  Could it be because of the path he was going down?  Could his criminal record have had something to do with it?  His breakup with his gf could also be a result of his past and present actions.


----------



## Grenadier (Dec 6, 2007)

Yet another example of how banning guns in an establishment didn't stop the bad guy.  

For those of y'all who don't know, even though the state of Nebraska allows people to carry concealed firearms with a permit, this particular shopping mall forbids it.  Someone forgot to tell the bad guy that guns weren't allowed in there.  

Here's an interesting article by John Lott, which makes many a gun banner eat crow:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315563,00.html



> Media Coverage of Mall Shooting Fails to Reveal Mall's Gun-Free-Zone Status
> Thursday, December 06, 2007
> By John R. Lott, Jr
> 
> ...


----------



## Jai (Dec 6, 2007)

My dad sadly knew the kid. He did community service at a center in downtown Omaha. He said the kid was a serious nut job. It's a shame that the communities have to suffer because of wastes of life like this. I have alot of good times that all tie into that mall, and when ever I go home I made a point to take my kids there. Now I'm just not so sure.


----------



## Kacey (Dec 6, 2007)

Probably the most disturbing bit I heard was the suicide note, which included


> "He had said how much he loved his family and all his friends and how he was sorry he was a burden to everybody and his whole life he was a piece of (expletive) and now he'll be famous,"


What a horrible way - and reason - to become "famous"... a horrific downside of today's rapid dissemination of information.


----------



## BrandiJo (Dec 6, 2007)

What a sad way to go, i mean one thing is hurting yourself but those people didn't deserve this. ​


----------



## Big Don (Dec 8, 2007)

Here's an article about the murders whose author is SHOCKED that mall security guys have little or no training and no weapons. http://www.wbir.com/news/national/story.aspx?storyid=52166


----------



## MJS (Dec 8, 2007)

I havent seen any of the mall security guards around my area carrying weapons.  I have though, seen police officers in the mall.  In light of all this, I wouldn't be surprised if malls across the country didn't start improving on the security aspect.


----------



## BrandiJo (Dec 9, 2007)

I hope not, LAST thing i want is to see half trained and over weight incompetent "guards" carrying guns. And if they up that security, are they going to want to search my bag, and self. Is it going to be like the airports where you have Metal detectors and have to take off your shoes before they let you in?

It is very tragic and very sad but our malls are safe and fine... you have a better chance of dieing while driving to the mall then while you are in the mall itself.


----------



## MJS (Dec 9, 2007)

BrandiJo said:


> I hope not, LAST thing i want is to see half trained and over weight incompetent "guards" carrying guns. And if they up that security, are they going to want to search my bag, and self. Is it going to be like the airports where you have Metal detectors and have to take off your shoes before they let you in?
> 
> It is very tragic and very sad but our malls are safe and fine... you have a better chance of dieing while driving to the mall then while you are in the mall itself.


 
Can't say I blame you.  I recall a thread somewhere where people were talking about teachers having guns.  Well, IMHO, this is right up there with that.  I doubt that, like a teacher, a mall security guard, is going to go thru the training that a LEO would.  

And while this is a very tragic incident, we need, as hard as it is for some, to just go on with our lives.  You're right...you can crash your car at any time.  But we still drive right?    We still fly after 9/11.  The week of Thanksgiving, I went to NYC.  I didn't have a phobia.  Go on with our lives, but still be aware of whats going on around you.  See something odd?  Report it.  Better to be safe than sorry.


----------



## theletch1 (Dec 9, 2007)

I've seen plenty of off duty cops doing security in the local malls around here.  I've also seen private security carrying sidearms in this area.  I don't have a problem with either mall security or teachers either one carrying a side arm if the go through the training to carry a concealed weapon.  That's the whole argument with the gun free zones, isn't it?  The bad guy isn't going to pay attention to the signs while the rest of the law abiding citizens are forced to go unarmed.  It doesn't require the same training that a LEO goes through to carry concealed and know that if some whack job with an assault rifle is picking off shoppers at the local mall that said whacko should be stopped with lethal force.


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 9, 2007)

Most states have some sort of provision for armed guards.  The training standards vary greatly; Virginia currently requires only 40 hours of training for an armed guard. That's compared to something on the order of 400 hours MINIMUM (most academies actually exceed that significantly).  There are also liability issues of having armed guards.  The "background check" for an guard (armed or unarmed) is ridiculous; if there's no fingerprint hit, and you attest that you've got a clean background, you're hired.  Finally... there's a pay issue.  I think an armed guard is currently making somewhere around $10 an hour or so (more for sites that require a security clearance) in my area.  Most unarmed guards are paid somewhere around $8 an hour.  Just what do you expect to get for that money?  I'm happy if they call 911...  But, I'll stick up for them, too.  Many of them are professionals.   

Some malls do have armed guards; in many areas, police departments have assigned one or more officers to the mall, and some currently have seasonal strike teams targetting pickpockets, shoplifters, and others taking advantage of the seasonal crowds for easy pickings.

The truth is that we can all talk about how if someone with a gun had been there, they could've stopped this.  But... if someone with a gun had been there, the outcome might have been even worse; lots more people killed in a running gunfight, for example.  

There's no magic solution; I wish there were.  Honestly... I'd say the best solution is for more people to actually care about their neighbors.  I don't think it's coincidental that these incidents seem to rarely occur within tight-knit communities.  (They do occur to them, as the killings of the Amish students shows.)  I don't think it's coincidental that we've seen more of these incidents occur as our society and culture has become increasingly separated on the local level, even as we bond more tightly on almost global scales.


----------



## Sukerkin (Dec 9, 2007)

To elaborate a little on what was so sensibly said above, I think that the overall imbedded culture has a part to play in this too.  

I know that we're getting somewhat the same in some ways over here on this side of the Pond, with eejut Asbos trying to behave as if they're Bronx Bruthers but, so far at least, we don't have some gonad trying to make a name for himself on exit by 'shooting up' the local Tesco's.

There seems to be something in America particularly that encourages this futile method of expression of protest against the system.  The facts that the country subsists on an illusiory balloon of debt supported prosperity, creating enormous societal tension and that there is a humungous gulf between the 'haves' and 'have nots' has a role to play I'm guessing.  But ... why does that translate into senseless murder of individuals who have had no impact on the killers life whatsoever?

The only answer that pops up is that these people have learned the lesson that 'might' is the only thing that counts and that 'right' is a platitude for the weak (and therefore to be spurned).  Where has that come from?


----------



## grydth (Dec 9, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> To elaborate a little on what was so sensibly said above, I think that the overall imbedded culture has a part to play in this too.
> 
> I know that we're getting somewhat the same in some ways over here on this side of the Pond, with eejut Asbos trying to behave as if they're Bronx Bruthers but, so far at least, we don't have some gonad trying to make a name for himself on exit by 'shooting up' the local Tesco's.
> 
> ...



Countries are different, and a country is different in particular eras than it is in others. I'm going to intentionally stay away from firearms - there's enough threads already on that and I'll not hijack this one.

I don't think the causes are economic... we have our recessions and you have your bubbles and neither coincides with slaughters occurring in either nation.

I think a main problem is that, in America today, being infamous is as good (or one might say, as bad) as being famous. Bad people get on TV as much, or more, as productive people.

I may get some press for winning a Nobel Prize in physics... after years of work for an achievement that makes life for us all better; you may do nothing good ever, then kill a few innocent folks.... and you get tons more media coverage than I do. YOU ARE ON TV!!!!... which is the new nirvana for us here.  You might have been a powerless geek... but slaughter some school mates, some shoppers and you are on TV. Maybe even OPRAH will talk about you!!

HOW COOL IS THAT?????

Remember the geek who murdered dozens at Virginia Tech University? Know what he did - took a time out from murder and mailed a package to the media. It worked, too - his savage manifesto was played all over. How surprised can we be that this mall shooting loser opined that, after a life of nothing, he could "die famous"  by butchering store clerks. It worked - again -  somebody who could hold neither girlfriend nor burger joint job is getting more publicity than many 2d tier presidential hopefuls.

What a way to strike back at all of "THEM"!!!!  

The media line has become blurred between winning the Olympic 100 yard dash, and finding a way to murder 100 victims. Hey, either one makes you famous, either one sets a record!

Until these murderous losers are denied the attention they crave, murder plans will continue to be hatched in dingy basements all across America.

Only my 7 pence, mind you.


----------



## fireman00 (Dec 9, 2007)

we had a presentation from Lt. Col. Grossman a couple of months back and one point that was raised pertained to how we (the media) make these losers into what they most desire... famous.  If we never heard their name... never saw their face... never knew who they were in life .... then the "go out in a blaze of glory" factor wouldn't be an issue.  They'd be just as vanilla in death as they were in real life... but that wouldn't sell papers or make folks tune into the 6 'o'clock news.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Dec 9, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Another incident linked to anti-depressants. May they all rest in peace.



I suppose. The term, anti-depressant, covers various prescribed medications taken by an awful lot of people. My understanding that the most common anti-depressants work better in concert with regular consultation with a medical professional -- talk therapy, if you will. Others require more careful medical scrutiny.

In the end I'm unsure how many of the tragedies are linked so much to anti-depressants as they are to lack of medical care.



Grenadier said:


> ...Here's an interesting article by John Lott, which makes many a gun banner eat crow:
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315563,00.html



Remarkably the article had no such effect on me...



> Media Coverage of Mall Shooting Fails to Reveal Mall's Gun-Free-Zone Status
> Thursday, December 06, 2007
> By John R. Lott, Jr
> ...
> ...



Pro gunners like Lott and anti-gunners make me sick they both exploit these extraordinary tragedies to make political hay for their causes. If Lott wanted to talk about something serious, he could raise a battle cry for better mental health and monitoring of individuals who pose a serious threat to society. This shooter, like Cho at VT, had a long history of illness and continually fell through the cracks. When they finally snap, whether it's reported on liberal CNN or conservative FOX, there are only two discussion points:


There are so many people with guns out there shooting people up that we need more guns.
There are so many people with guns out there shooting people up that we need fewer guns.
Can I possibly be the only person who thinks this is a tediously simplistic discussion of a very serious issue.

Perhaps a better discussion could be had about the state of mental health care and the abilities of law enforcement, health leaders and others to intervene when an individual's mental state and behaviour dictate stronger measures for the protection of both the patient and the public.



CoryKS said:


> From the reports, it sounds like yet another precious snowflake unable to cope with the reality of his own insignificance. *spit*



I guess I have my answer.


----------



## BrandiJo (Dec 9, 2007)

Gordon Nore said:


> Perhaps a better discussion could be had about the state of mental health care and the abilities of law enforcement, health leaders and others to intervene when an individual's mental state and behaviour dictate stronger measures for the protection of both the patient and the public.




I think that would be the most ideal solution. But how do you help someone who does not want to be helped? How do you identify someone who is just jumping though the hoops so as to avoid being noticed. My old MA teacher knew the kid, she said he was the nicest kid in the world, did some time at the detention center where her husband works and was on a good track, but something went wrong, some how all the help he was supposed to be getting never got though, but not for lack of trying. So how do we tell the state to fix its act when alot was already being done for this kid, or any other kid. Im not saying he wasn't really off the last few years, but as a kid early teens from what i understand he was on a good path but once he got off it seems there was no stopping him.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Dec 9, 2007)

BrandiJo said:


> I think that would be the most ideal solution. But how do you help someone who does not want to be helped?



That's my point... It is a complicated issue that goes against the principal of getting solutions fast and stupid. That's why nobody talks about it. It's so much easier to conclude that we more or fewer guns, depending upon who's talking.


----------



## MJS (Dec 9, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> The truth is that we can all talk about how if someone with a gun had been there, they could've stopped this. But... if someone with a gun had been there, the outcome might have been even worse; lots more people killed in a running gunfight, for example.


 
Exactly the reason why I wouldn't be too keen on the idea of this.  I'd rather take my chances with no weapon, than have someone who may have questionable training at best, who could possibly make a bad situation much worse.

Mike


----------



## Grenadier (Dec 10, 2007)

Looks like someone had a spark of common sense, and took down the "gun-free zone" signs.  

http://joemerchant24.blogspot.com/2007/12/report-from-westroads.html


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 10, 2007)

MJS said:


> Exactly the reason why I wouldn't be too keen on the idea of this.  I'd rather take my chances with no weapon, than have someone who may have questionable training at best, who could possibly make a bad situation much worse.
> 
> Mike


That wasn't exactly my point...

I believe that we all should have the right to carry a firearm, if we choose, unless there is a particular reason to prohibit someone (mental illness, criminal history, etc.).  And I absolutely agree that in places that decide to limit the ability of those legally entitled to carry to do so -- the only people with guns will be crooks.  I just don't buy into the "if only there was a lawfully armed citizen, this would've ended differently" idea, either.  It could easily have been made worse...

I do carry a gun, almost anywhere I go.  But that doesn't necessarily mean I'd have been shooting...  Taking a shot in a place like a crowded mall is a nightmare scenario to me.  One of the Cardinal Rules of Firearm Safety is to "know your target... and what is beyond it (the backstop)."  In a crowded mall, there's a really good chance that your backstop is going to be PEOPLE.  Not good!  The issue of when and how to take direct action has been covered elsewhere; I'll sum it up by saying that, sometimes, the best action that you can take without putting even more people in danger, is to take cover, and call it in.


----------



## MJS (Dec 10, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> That wasn't exactly my point...
> 
> I believe that we all should have the right to carry a firearm, if we choose, unless there is a particular reason to prohibit someone (mental illness, criminal history, etc.). And I absolutely agree that in places that decide to limit the ability of those legally entitled to carry to do so -- the only people with guns will be crooks. I just don't buy into the "if only there was a lawfully armed citizen, this would've ended differently" idea, either. It could easily have been made worse...
> 
> I do carry a gun, almost anywhere I go. But that doesn't necessarily mean I'd have been shooting... Taking a shot in a place like a crowded mall is a nightmare scenario to me. One of the Cardinal Rules of Firearm Safety is to "know your target... and what is beyond it (the backstop)." In a crowded mall, there's a really good chance that your backstop is going to be PEOPLE. Not good! The issue of when and how to take direct action has been covered elsewhere; I'll sum it up by saying that, sometimes, the best action that you can take without putting even more people in danger, is to take cover, and call it in.


 
Points taken.  Additionally, considering the LEOs responding to this situation are already gearing up for a stressful situation, now, with a civilian in the mix with a gun as well, you just may be putting yourself in harms way with the police, as they're not going to know if you're the bad guy, or just someone who wants to help.


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 10, 2007)

MJS said:


> Points taken.  Additionally, considering the LEOs responding to this situation are already gearing up for a stressful situation, now, with a civilian in the mix with a gun as well, you just may be putting yourself in harms way with the police, as they're not going to know if you're the bad guy, or just someone who wants to help.


When the uniformed cops arrive... ANYONE else stops, and follows their directions.  We've got ways to ID each other (no, I'm not sharing them), but they're no guarantee.  The rule in civilian attire or plainclothes is that you obey the uniforms.  

And, until they know different, ANYONE with a gun other than the other uniformed cops is presumed to be a bad guy.


----------

