# Speaking of Urban Legends



## Touch Of Death (Feb 7, 2007)

I challange anyone to produce one police report of people spitting on Us Soldiers after comming home from vietnam at the airport.
Sean


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## Blindside (Feb 7, 2007)

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot???

Where did this come rom?  Is this something that was likely to make an official police report?  

Lamont


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## terryl965 (Feb 7, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I challange anyone to produce one police report of people spitting on Us Soldiers after comming home from vietnam at the airport.
> Sean


 

Sean what is up are you angry about something, because your statement dictates it. I do not know if there are police reports but I do know alot of people hated the veterans from the VietNam war. My cousin was in during the conflict and I can remembe rpeople calling him a babay killer and such, it drove him mad to the point of him killing himself, he just could not understood why he was a victom when he had no choice but to do has his country ask of him.


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## Cruentus (Feb 7, 2007)

Well, what is a "horror story" is that a lot of "liberal" (for lack of a better term) members of media and blogs like Slate and others are on this kick now that all the spitting stories were BS. There are many accounts of vets being treated like crap by protesters upon return from combat. Whether it was being "spit on" or being called names or given dirty looks, or what have you, does it really matter? Isn't it the point that soldiers were sent over to do a job, and many war protestors misplaced their anger by directing it towards the troops rather then the powers that be?

http://www.enterprisenews.com/articles/2006/05/01/news/news/news06.txt

It is good that we remember those times so that they aren't repeated (and it is nice to see the change with this current conflict in Iraq, btw). I think that arguing over the spitting stories and if they are true or not is splitting hairs. Hell, here is an account of soldiers being spat on IN RECENT TIMES OVER IRAQ, and being arrested for it. Why is it so far fetched to say that it would have happened during Vietnam, when public opinion of soldiers was at an all time low in this country?

http://www.americans-working-together.com/jack_cunningham/id89.html


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## stone_dragone (Feb 7, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I challange anyone to produce one police report of people spitting on Us Soldiers after comming home from vietnam at the airport.





Touch Of Death said:


> Sean




The countless stories of such things fail to prove a thing, I guess, much as the thousands of stories from holocaust survivors.  To my admittedly limited knowledge, not a single "victim" among them reported anything to the police.  I guess that one would refuse to believe the soldiers who liberated the camps in which those atrocities took place, too. Apparently we cant believe family members who saw it happen, either. Must not have happened.  Nope.  No proof.  All lies.

Fortunately for American history, most Native Americans didn't report a single bit of mistreatment to the local authorities during and following the westward expansion.

I am so glad that of the rapes that are reported each year, many are false because there exists no tangible proof.  Since they arent reported, *no* other rapes occur.  Isnt that how this little game worksif it wasnt reported, it didnt happen, right?

Im certain that the constable of puritan Salem would have received at least one or two reports of false imprisonment unless each and every person tried was in fact a witch.

I invite all who actually believe such dismissals of history and personal experiences to pucker up and collectively kiss my lily-white ***.

[Edit as required]


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## Cruentus (Feb 7, 2007)

Again, the trend has been propigated by certain members of the media, like Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2158608?nav=tap3

It was first "debunked" from a 1998 book by Jerry Lembcke.

This is of course debunked because Mr. Lembcke wasn't able to find a police report regarding such an incident. Never mind the many eyewitness accounts and personal stories, and never mind the fact that most of those records would not be felony charges if charges were pressed and reports were made, and therefore would have been purged long ago.

The fact is, none of these things are black and white. In other words, you get many kinds of people within target groups. Not every protestor is of the jackassed, spitting on soldier ilk. But, some are. And, as reports and accounts go, some at least were very anti-soldier during the Vietnam war era, whether they spit on anyone or not.

So, what is the big deal?

Well, I think the real question is, why is it that some members of the more "liberal" media would take the time to "debunk" such myths? Why would books and articles be written on the subject? Why spend the time and the money?

Well, I think the real answer is embarrassment. People of the "war-protestor" ilk are embarrassed of the behavior of those whom shared similar views during the Vietnam era. In our 20/20 hindsight where every logical person can see that degrading soldiers who are only doing a job as ordered by our world leaders is immoral, the idea of blaming troops for a conflict is mortifying. So, instead of manning up and admitting that doing such a thing was wrong, some members of the "war protestor" ilk would rather deny that it ever happened.

I think that it is important to remember why some folks would focus on trying to "debunk" this aspect of history, rather then spend their journalism on other subjects. That in itself speaks volumes. Because you know what... they should be embarrassed, ashamed, and humiliated...


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## Carol (Feb 7, 2007)

There are also absolutely NO ACCOUNTS - Zip Zero Nada - of any witches being burned at the stake in Salem, Mass.

Trust me, I live here.

If there are any accounts of witches being burned at the stake, they are fake.   It did NOT happen.

Forget what you know.  No witches were burned at the stake in Salem.

Believe what you want but I'm telling you the rock solid truth.

Because...in 1692 Salem, witches weren't burned at the stake.

They were hanged.

EDIT:
I'm not sure how many "people spitting on Us Soldiers after comming home from vietnam at the airport"

Soldiers returning from Vietnam were typically flown back to a base, not to an airport.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 7, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> Again, the trend has been propigated by certain members of the media, like Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2158608?nav=tap3
> 
> It was first "debunked" from a 1998 book by Jerry Lembcke.
> 
> ...


That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heared. It becomes shown that a major piece of Americana is false, and you call for shame in doing so. Truth is always the first casualty I suppose... carry on.
Sean


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## Cruentus (Feb 7, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heared. It becomes shown that a major piece of Americana is false, and you call for shame in doing so. Truth is always the first casualty I suppose... carry on.
> Sean


 
It's not found as false, for one. 

There is ample amounts of accounts of war protestors misplacing anger on troops during Vietnam; accounts ranging from spitting to chanting to namecalling and what have you. Just because one can't find a police report of one incident, a record which would have been purged long ago, that doesn't mean it never happened. Furthermore, I did link to sites that cited articles and accounts of protestors vandalizing and attacking memorials to deceased vets during veitnam, as well as an account of a woman spitting on soldiers recently. But somehow, that is overlooked?

As I said, it is telling that one would waste time "debunking" such things. And like I said, you and everyone else who would waste such time should be embarrassed and ashamed... it's too bad it is so much so that you would attempt to change history.


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## Monadnock (Feb 7, 2007)

People shouldn't take anything on the Slate serious, much less anyone who blindly believes it all. (Baaaaaaaa)

They are denying any sort of wrong doing to the troops then, just like they are now. They are trying to skirt any responsibilities for their actions then, to try and help their anti-troop image now.

I aint buyin it. I wonder if anyone who reads Slate has ever mustered up the strength to go an talk to a Vietnam Vet. I guess attacking the troops in Iraq isn't enough. They had to go back to 'Nam as well.

Greeeeat thread choice though.......


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 7, 2007)

Monadnock said:


> People shouldn't take anything on the Slate serious, much less anyone who blindly believes it all. (Baaaaaaaa)
> 
> They are denying any sort of wrong doing to the troops then, just like they are now. They are trying to skirt any responsibilities for their actions then, to try and help their anti-troop image now.
> 
> ...


Thanks. There we go again. Being anti war gets equated with being anti troop. Anyone who tries to debunk the smear should feel some sort of shame. Its shameless really.
Sean


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## Cruentus (Feb 7, 2007)

Well, for those interested in reading some accounts of war vets being spit on and treated poorly during the Vietnam era, I suggest picking up a copy of this book: http://www.amazon.com/Homecoming-Bo...ef=sr_1_1/104-7751065-2206301?ie=UTF8&s=books

"Homecoming" by Bob Greene. Some of these soldiers who provided FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS for the book are still alive today. Maybe you should call them up and tell them that their experiences were just urban myths if you disagree? 

:bs1:


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> There are also absolutely NO ACCOUNTS - Zip Zero Nada - of any witches being burned at the stake in Salem, Mass.
> 
> Trust me, I live here.
> 
> ...


 
Mustnt forget some witches were crushed and a couple was drowned too but none, I repeat absolutely none were burned at the stake As a matter of fact I dont even think they were given steak as a last meal before being hanged, crushed or drown that is

I use to live in that area too


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## jdinca (Feb 7, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I challange anyone to produce one police report of people spitting on Us Soldiers after comming home from vietnam at the airport.
> Sean


 
May I ask you what prompted you to post this in the first place? It seems out of character.


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 7, 2007)

ditto above, t.o.d.  that seems real vitriolic for something 35 years in the past.  did you lose an argument last night or something?


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## stone_dragone (Feb 8, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> There are also absolutely NO ACCOUNTS - Zip Zero Nada - of any witches being burned at the stake in Salem, Mass.
> 
> Trust me, I live here.
> 
> ...


 
RE: witches...Fair enough.  RE: Airports vs. bases, we have to remember that it was a pre-911 world and airfields weren't quite so secure as we have now.  I do applogize for misconstruing airports and bases in my retoric.  Gomen nasai.


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## Carol (Feb 8, 2007)

stone_dragone said:


> RE: witches...Fair enough. RE: Airports vs. bases, we have to remember that it was a pre-911 world and airfields weren't quite so secure as we have now. I do applogize for misconstruing airports and bases in my retoric. Gomen nasai.



Nan de mo nai desu.   It was Sean's initial premise that struck me as possibly being too...convenient with its wording.  

Thank you for your service Stone Dragone.


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## Monadnock (Feb 8, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Thanks. There we go again. Being anti war gets equated with being anti troop. Anyone who tries to debunk the smear should feel some sort of shame. Its shameless really.
> Sean


 
The thread wasn't started about the "war". You oughta know - you posted it. It was purely about the anti-troops poeple who spit on them. And my post said nothing about the anti-war types either. So, by your own admission, you are putting the two together, not me.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 8, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> ditto above, t.o.d. that seems real vitriolic for something 35 years in the past. did you lose an argument last night or something?


No, I just heared it on the radio. I don't have cable; so, I just thought I would throw this out there because it is relavent to the state of polarization we have today. 
Sean


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 8, 2007)

do you feel there's polarization towards the troops today?

i think one place the military is going a much better job is with their support for veterans.  my brother has done two tours over there now, and he goes through a pretty detailed and (from what i can tell) well designed re-entry program that's aimed at helping him psychologically and logistically.

i'm not arguing that our society is extremely polarized right now -- not even i'm that dumb.  i just don't see many people taking it out on the troops.

and for the record, i don't think people filed police reports for getting spat on in the 70s.  back then, our culture still believed in just smacking somebody who was that out of line.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 8, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> do you feel there's polarization towards the troops today?
> 
> i think one place the military is going a much better job is with their support for veterans. my brother has done two tours over there now, and he goes through a pretty detailed and (from what i can tell) well designed re-entry program that's aimed at helping him psychologically and logistically.
> 
> ...


Yeah people just beat eachother up. Why no assault reports? The image of soldiers stoicly pacing on as spit dribbles down there face is something I have seen time and time again on fictional portrayals, but can you imagine family members not reacting to assaults as their sons came home.?
Sean


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 8, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Yeah people just beat eachother up. Why no assault reports? The image of soldiers stoicly pacing on as spit dribbles down there face is something I have seen time and time again on fictional portrayals, but can you imagine family members not reacting to assaults as their sons came home.?
> Sean


 
One of my old kenpo teachers was a vet of that war. He dealt with a great deal of harassment; recounted constant car damage and graffiti ("It should have been you" painted accross his hood, with a picture of dead Viet Cong glued by the writing, and that sort of thing). I'm not sure if he was ever spit on, but he did have several people try to jump him. One of his favorite stories was about a biker gang that helped him out in one scuffle, only to find out after the fact they had already completed their tours of duty. And the only reason the other guys started something?  They were college frat boys objecting to the war; he was in uniform.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 8, 2007)

Who'll Stop the War?
by Michael I. Niman

The name Vietnam is back in our vocabulary, as we seem to be developing an interest in history&#8212;or at least in the history of wars that just would not end. The problem is that when we ignore history, we&#8217;re condemned to repeat it.
http://artvoice.com/issues/v6n5/wholl_stop_the_war


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## terryl965 (Feb 8, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Who'll Stop the War?
> by Michael I. Niman
> 
> The name Vietnam is back in our vocabulary, as we seem to be developing an interest in historyor at least in the history of wars that just would not end. The problem is that when we ignore history, were condemned to repeat it.
> http://artvoice.com/issues/v6n5/wholl_stop_the_war


 

well said bob and how true


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## kuntawguro (Feb 8, 2007)

I returned home from Viet Nam and was headed to San Francisco to pick up my car, when I was spit on by  a long haired guy at the SF bus station- lucky for me the bus driver  pushed the jerk back and let me on the bus. BTW I was in  full dress uniform. I was a sailor. I saw groups of protesters in the SF area giving major grief to the marines  as they got on and off of buses that fall. So believe it or not- it is up to you- we were despised. The only reason we were wearing our uniforms was to get the discounted fare to and from. If it wasn't for that- I would have been in civvies.

 My father was the head of the local vfw post
 when I tried to  get a drink one night , I was given nothing but grief by the WW2 vets. So , I left. I brought it up to my father and told him I wouldn't join the post, he made a big stink of it. I never did go back. After all, I wasn't in a REAL WAR.


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## kuntawguro (Feb 8, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> There are also absolutely NO ACCOUNTS - Zip Zero Nada - of any witches being burned at the stake in Salem, Mass.
> 
> Trust me, I live here.
> 
> ...


Then on their trip home from their home base they flew on commercial  planes military stand by or cut rate flights. As far as I know, there were no military  planes flying into Detroit metro airport to get me  home- I flew American Airlines coach in uniform for the discount


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## Carol (Feb 8, 2007)

Thank you Buzz.  For everything.  :asian:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 8, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Thank you Buzz. For everything. :asian:


 
Yes. Though it may have been too long in coming, thank you.


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## Cruentus (Feb 8, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Yeah people just beat eachother up. Why no assault reports? The image of soldiers stoicly pacing on as spit dribbles down there face is something I have seen time and time again on fictional portrayals, but can you imagine family members not reacting to assaults as their sons came home.?
> Sean


 
Sean, and others. I swear, if you were some random dude who just signed up I would verbally punch you straight in the coutter!  I am going to patiently assume that you and others aren't just trolling, but are logical people who have maybe just gotten caught up in the recent media hype.

Please, I beg you folks, try to listen to reason on this:

1. There were a lot of police reports of fights, vandalism, arrests, and so forth over conflicts between soldiers and war protestors. These occured _30-40 years ago_. Most legal records for non-felony charges are purged from the system in 7-10 years. I am sure there were multiple police reports because we can find references in records to these in newspaper articles and witness accounts. Just because I can't fax you over a police report from the 70s that details a spitting incident, that doesn't mean that such incidents never occured, or that such reports never existed or don't exist today. I in fact linked to a news report of war protestors vandalizing a veterans memorial to deceased soldiers right on this thread. I also linked to a spitting incident that occured recently in Syracuse NY. There is also VIDEO FOOTAGE that does exist (not sure where to find it at the moment) of protestors spitting on soldiers. So don't fall into the trap that some leftie media hounds have laid, and look at all the evidence objectively before you make yourself look immoral and stupid by supporting an immoral and stupid premise.

2. The idea that this was a "myth" was propigated in a 1998 book that I already referenced here by Jerry Lembcke. Mr. Lembcke decided that the "spitting on soldiers" idea was a myth; a part of some vast right wing conspiracy to denounce war protestors. His evidence was that he claimed that he couldn't find any eyewitness accounts of such incidents, or "official reports" like police reports and such. He makes a whole host of claims with faulty statistics to bolster his argument. He also claimed that because some soldiers spoke out against the war, that this means that "protestors" and "soldiers" were all on the same side, thus no incidents of foul treatment could have occured.

Mr. Lembcke is both morally bankrupt and intellectually dishonest. A more objective individual had asked the same questions of "did this really happen" 10 years prior to Lembcke's book. A writer by the name of Bob Greene had asked the question and asked for responses in several syndicated columns in the 80's. He recieved 1000's of responses from vets accounting tales being spat on, and much worse. He detailed this in his book that I have already referenced here "The Homecoming." This book, on top of news accounts and countless other accounts of soldiers being treated poorly can be found fairly easily.

Mr. Lembcke selectively left Greene's book, and all the other evidence, out of his "research."

3. One has to ask themselves why would radio hosts, columnists, bloggers, and other "liberally biased" media sources would take such a strong interest in "debunking" this "myth" today. The obvious reason is that these people, who are war protestors and ideologically similar to those during the Vietnam era, don't want to be associated with those who would spit on and socially "attack" and degrade soldiers.

But, because these certain people are so morally bankrupt, instead of doing the right thing and simply denouncing previous behavior towards soldiers and behaving differently then their predecessors, they would rather REWRITE HISTORY AND PRETEND THAT IT NEVER HAPPENED.

Don't become as immoral as these people. It is one thing (and perfectly American as we have these freedoms) to dislike the war and dissent. It is quite another to try to rewrite history to serve your agenda. 

4. Vietnam was very polarizing for many people during that era, even within the armed forces. This was due to a lot of reasons, one of which could be the DRAFT. Right now, we have a volunteer army. The large portion of people that I know in the military are happy to be serving, regardless of the politics behind the Iraq war. You institute a draft, and now all of a sudden you will have a lot of troops who don't want to be there, and a lot of desenters and "soldiers" who protest the war. Why do you think that many anti-war politicians talk about instituting the draft, despite reports from the Generals that this is not needed yet? They would be willing to FORCE young men and women into service in hopes that it will create enough dissent to end the war. See, for some of these folks, the ends justify the means, no matter how wrong the means. Can we say "morally bankrupt"?

But I digress... the fact is, ideological "peer pressure" is what tends to occur here. There are many pro-war, anti-war, and middle of the road vets from the vietnam era. There are a small few who got sucked into the anti-war movement who served. There are a few who went the opposite direction.

But the overwhelming evidence exists that the anti-war crowd of that era was anti-troop. Sure, if you were a soldier who was willing to trash your medals and your uniform for their cause, they were happy to USE YOU for the cause. But this does not make them "pro-troop, anti-war." Because if you were a soldier who was proud of your service regardless of the politics, and was proud to wear your uniform in public, you were considered trash yourself by many of the anti-war folks, and you were treated as such.

And with such a strong anti-war sentiment towards the end because people were so sick and tired of Vietnam, many soldiers were trashed in public by the public.

Yet, they all had families and friends and others who were understanding, and who treated soldiers well upon their return.

So, no, not every person or "anti-war" person trashed soldiers during Vietnam. Not everyone had a horrible homecoming. But enough of them did for us to remember this point of history, and not deny it to serve a soulless political agenda.

5. Immoral means don't justify an end no matter what way you slice it. Trying to change history to serve an end is disrespectful to your country and to those who serve it. Maybe you can say that you "support the troops" but that you "disagree with the way political leaders are managing the war." But you cannot say that you "support the troops" but that you believe that the stories of vets being treated poorly during Vietnam were all "myths." 

This is because many soldiers have given first hand accounts of being treated poorly in countless publications, including RIGHT HERE IN THIS THREAD. So by saying that these accounts are myths, you are saying that these soldiers are LIARS.

How can you say you "SUPPORT THE TROOPS" when you are so willing to call so many of them LIARS?

Just think about what you are doing, and what you are saying. Please... I beg you. Don't be stupid, and don't fall into immoral, agenda driven stupidity. Because it really does hurt people in the long run...


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 8, 2007)

The article I posted makes some of the same claims as the OP mentioned. I agree and disagree with it. While it goes on abit about no "proof", I've heard from enough reliable people that stuff did happen to wonder about the sources used.


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## bluemtn (Feb 8, 2007)

kuntawguro said:


> I returned home from Viet Nam and was headed to San Francisco to pick up my car, when I was spit on by a long haired guy at the SF bus station- lucky for me the bus driver pushed the jerk back and let me on the bus. BTW I was in full dress uniform. I was a sailor. I saw groups of protesters in the SF area giving major grief to the marines as they got on and off of buses that fall. So believe it or not- it is up to you- we were despised. The only reason we were wearing our uniforms was to get the discounted fare to and from. If it wasn't for that- I would have been in civvies.
> 
> My father was the head of the local vfw post
> when I tried to get a drink one night , I was given nothing but grief by the WW2 vets. So , I left. I brought it up to my father and told him I wouldn't join the post, he made a big stink of it. I never did go back. After all, I wasn't in a REAL WAR.


 

From the daughter of a Vietnam vet, and with utmost respect...

:asian:


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## Carol (Feb 8, 2007)

The town of Bristol, Rhode Island has one of the oldest, and largest, Independence Day parades in the country.

The parade goes on for hours and hours and people come from all around the country to march in the parade and to watch the parade.  It's an amazing sight.

I went there when I was in college, one of my schoolmates was from the area.  She and I were walking about enjoying the parade when she drew my attention to a performing act that was doing this synchronized dance/march that was beautifully produced and absolutely enthralling to watch.

After this performance was a fairly nondescript truck with 4 or 5 tough old fellows in the back.  On the side was a carefully handpainted sign announcing the regiment they served in over in Vietnam.

I saw them, waved, clapped, and cheered.  My friend looked at me oddly at first but then she started cheering too.  One of the bigger dudes shouted "Thank you!" back in a voice that sounded so deeply touched, it moved me to silence.  

"Thank YOU!!" I shouted back.  By this time, the fellow was about 10 feet in front of me.  The grizzled vet stared in to my eyes, his face welled up with tears and he bowed his head slightly towards me.

"Anytime..." he said, in a choked, but very clear voice.

I have tears in my eyes typing this.  I don't think I will ever forget that, and hope I never will.


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## Kacey (Feb 8, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> I don't think I will ever forget that, and hope I never will.


And what is more important - neither will he.

Horrible actions were taken toward veterans after Vietnam and Korea, by people who had valid concerns and complaints, but who chose the wrong people to demonstrate against.  The brave men and women who served in those wars (and wars they were, no matter what politicians choose to call them) deserve our utmost respect, even more so because of the derision demonstrated to them instead of to the leaders who sent them to war.  Nothing we do today can change the wrongs of the past - but hopefully, we can express our thanks today, and avoid visiting the sins of the leaders on those who choose to serve our country.


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## LawDog (Feb 9, 2007)

Thank you from another Vietnam(68) vet.
Al C.


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## tradrockrat (Feb 9, 2007)

Well, my uncle became a cop after comming home from vietnam and he told me point blank that not only was their a near riot of "peacful protesters" there throwing things at him and his fellow soldiers, but he was actually spit on outside of the airport though the window of his parents car as they drove home.

does that count as a police report?

seems to be a pointless, angry thread here.


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## matt.m (Feb 9, 2007)

Wow, wow, wow, and wow.  Ok, I have been in V.F.W. halls and seen 1st hand how Vietnam vets get treated by WWII and Korean vets.  I am here to tell you, it pissed me off and I was born at the very end of the Vietnam conflict.

Hamburger Hill, Platoon, Marine Corps history, 'Nam the comic from Marvel and some stories told me while listening to those who would even talk about it is all I know of this conflict.  However, the most important part is that they were doing what their country asked them to do.   Period, end of story.

Some volunteered, most were drafted.  Wow, so I suppose most of the things I saw and was part of in the U.S.M.C. is malarky because there is no formal report.

This will probably get me banned but I don't care........The thing is "If you didn't wear a uniform, march a post, defend people who could care less because you felt it your honor and duty then shut the **** up"  

Wow, just wow.


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## CoryKS (Feb 9, 2007)

Found this post via Taranto.  Apparently, it is to be the first of a series responding to Lembcke's arguments.


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## shesulsa (Feb 10, 2007)

I got to meet and talk with Ron Kovic and he spoke to me about the atrocious behavior he was met with upon return stateside and the continuing issues in the management of Veterans Affairs.  We talked about the movie based on his experiences, "Born On The Fourth of July" and, at that time, the coming Persian Gulf War.

War is hell.  

It's three simple words that mean volumes ... much of it messy and self-depracating ... stuff many of us don't want to look at or admit.  It's too goddamn easy to call things we don't want to admit happened "myths."

My history teacher was a Vietnam Vet - hell only the sole female history teacher at my high school wasn't a Vietnam Vet.  All the coaches were Nam Vets.  When asked the obligatory, ignorant teenage question, "Did people really spit on you," that student was met with a steely silence and we received accounts of things I don't even want to repeat.

Fellas (and ladies) ... there are some of us out here who didn't serve but who have an idea what you had to go through ... and appreciate you nonetheless.  You did your jobs and I, for one, thank you.

:asian:


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## shrek (Feb 12, 2007)

Yes, soldiers & sailors were spit upon during veitnam and after.  One spit on my uncle in Houston and my lil 7 yr old self kicked the *expletive deleted* square in the nuts.  People didn't make police reports over silly BS like they do these days, back in the 70's if you made a report like that the cop would have asked you "So why didn't you punch him?".  

I'd be less nice today if I saw someone do that to ANY of our military personnel.   You dang sure ain't gonna see that happen in the Southern US, us rednecks would kick the daylights out of a liberal that was stupid enough to try.


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## crushing (Feb 12, 2007)

kuntawguro said:


> My father was the head of the local vfw post
> when I tried to get a drink one night , I was given nothing but grief by the WW2 vets. So , I left. I brought it up to my father and told him I wouldn't join the post, he made a big stink of it. I never did go back. After all, I wasn't in a REAL WAR.


 
My Dad is a Vietnam vet, so I have always considered it a REAL WAR.  After speaking with many Vietnam vets, I don't see how anyone could consider it anything else but war.  Sure, it may not meet some sort of political or legal definition, but it was a war.

Just curious as to how long ago that was?  The torch has pretty much been passed to the Vietnam/Korean war vets at my post.  Even more recent war veterans are being elected as officers.

Would you reconsider becoming a member?  The politicians see numbers, and those numbers can translate into getting the promised services for the vets.  I haven't agreed with some of the stances the national organization has taken, but over all it is a good outfit.  It's amazing how much the local VFWs do for their communities too.  Not just for vets, but for children's programs, safety programs, food pantries, etc.

If you find yourself headed about 2.5 hours South of T.C. (Whitelake Area), PM me and I will buy you a drink at my post.

Sincerely,
crushing


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## LawDog (Feb 12, 2007)

The anti-Vietnam Vet view is still alive and well. When I interviewed for my present job the interveiwing board was going to by pass me in preference for the non-vet's. During the 70's Vietnam Vet's were usually by passed for employment. Because of this fact a former state govererner had legislation passed that disallowed the by passing of Vietnam Vet's and disabled vet's unless it was for just cause. Because I am both I was then reluctantly hired. During my first week on the job a supervisor, along with a few other fellow employee's started referring to me as the "baby killer", physco vet and the list goes on. Unfortunitly this type of verbal assault has never stopped. If I even get upset at work I will hear ome of my fellow workers comment, some of that delayed stress again or watch out he's one of those vietnam crazies.
In fairness where I work is very pro veteran, that is along as you are a WWII, Korean War and Desert Storm etc veteran.
When I marched in a veterans type of parade I was always placed in the rear of the formation. During the verteran type holidays while at work, I would usually put on my Vietnam ribbons, many times I was told that I had to remove them. On my personal bio page on my schools web site I did not , untill 2006, list my military background. Since 68-69, for almost 38 years, it still goes on.
Please understand I am not complaining about this or am I looking for sympathy, it is just mere frustration with a society that won't let it go.


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## Kacey (Feb 12, 2007)

LawDog said:


> The anti-Vietnam Vet view is still alive and well. When I interviewed for my present job the interveiwing board was going to by pass me in preference for the non-vet's. During the 70's Vietnam Vet's were usually by passed for employment. Because of this fact a former state govererner had legislation passed that disallowed the by passing of Vietnam Vet's and disabled vet's unless it was for just cause. Because I am both I was then reluctantly hired. During my first week on the job a supervisor, along with a few other fellow employee's started referring to me as the "baby killer", physco vet and the list goes on. Unfortunitly this type of verbal assault has never stopped. If I even get upset at work I will hear ome of my fellow workers comment, some of that delayed stress again or watch out he's one of those vietnam crazies.
> In fairness where I work is very pro veteran, that is along as you are a WWII, Korean War and Desert Storm etc veteran.
> When I marched in a veterans type of parade I was always placed in the rear of the formation. During the verteran type holidays while at work, I would usually put on my Vietnam ribbons, many times I was told that I had to remove them. On my personal bio page on my schools web site I did not , untill 2006, list my military background. Since 68-69, for almost 38 years, it still goes on.
> Please understand I am not complaining about this or am I looking for sympathy, it is just mere frustration with a society that won't let it go.



The above is a sad, sorry, and disturbingly common commentary on the state of "acceptable" behavior in this country - when it is not politically correct to comment on someone's race, creed, religion, gender, weight, etc., but it is perfectly fine to deride someone who served our country at the risk of his/her life for their service - today, often by people who are parroting insults they have heard from others, rather than from any actual opinion or knowledge of the event(s) in question.

On behalf of all of us who consider your coworkers to be insensitive nuts, I would like to apologize for the way you've been treated, and thank you for your service  :asian:


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## stone_dragone (Feb 13, 2007)

shrek said:


> You dang sure ain't gonna see that happen in the Southern US, us rednecks would kick the daylights out of a liberal that was stupid enough to try.


 
I only wish this were true.  While not personally experiencing it, it has occurred as late as 4 years ago in south central Alabama.  An peer of mine, while conducting funeral detail for a veteran (3 man detail vs 7 man) had a relative (not sure which one) of the deceased not only spit on the flag but on the team leader trying to present it.  Why the family requested military honors in the first place and harbored this attitude I don't know.  Needless to say, the soldier refrained from punching the elderly woman in the face.  

As it has been 4 years ago, I appologize for the lack of detail.


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## grydth (Feb 14, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I challange anyone to produce one police report of people spitting on Us Soldiers after comming home from vietnam at the airport.
> Sean



I could go you one better and produce the actual veteran, a friend of mine who won the Silver Star in Viet Nam.....  but all that would do would be to produce an extremely violent confrontation and there has been enough of that. It simply isn't that important to me whether you believe us or not.

I know the vets returned to see enemy flags all over, which I personally witnessed. But since, for reasons best known to you, you have confined your beliefs to what is found in official reports, that doesn't count either. 

You state this relates to the polarization today..... well there is a police report and a media account of a woman spitting on a soldier at Syracuse's Hancock Airport last year. Find some way to ignore those!

I find your posts offensive in the extreme, sounds more like a Touch of Denial.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 14, 2007)

shrek said:


> I'd be less nice today if I saw someone do that to ANY of our military personnel. You dang sure ain't gonna see that happen in the Southern US, us rednecks would kick the daylights out of a liberal that was stupid enough to try.


Listen, Vietnam aside. I was stationed on Ft Knox and the locals have a habbit of shooting soldiers. It never makes the news its just accepted losses. I dare you to tromp around in the back woods of FT Knox and call one of these locals a liberal. It won't even make the news.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 14, 2007)

grydth said:


> I could go you one better and produce the actual veteran, a friend of mine who won the Silver Star in Viet Nam..... but all that would do would be to produce an extremely violent confrontation and there has been enough of that. It simply isn't that important to me whether you believe us or not.
> 
> I know the vets returned to see enemy flags all over, which I personally witnessed. But since, for reasons best known to you, you have confined your beliefs to what is found in official reports, that doesn't count either.
> 
> ...


What does your account have to do with the topic of this thread?


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## grydth (Feb 14, 2007)

One cannot make the willfully blind see. 

How about we just add each other to the ignore lists and leave it at that?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 14, 2007)

grydth said:


> One cannot make the willfully blind see.
> 
> How about we just add each other to the ignore lists and leave it at that?


I won't be adding you to my ignore list but I encourage you to do what ever you feel you need to do. I simply repeated a radio program topic I listened to the day before and  get accused of not having been in uniform and having an agenda. Both assumptions are false.
Sean


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## Kreth (Feb 15, 2007)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Kreth/Jeff Velten
-MT Senior Moderator-


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## kuntawguro (Mar 6, 2007)

crushing said:


> My Dad is a Vietnam vet, so I have always considered it a REAL WAR.  After speaking with many Vietnam vets, I don't see how anyone could consider it anything else but war.  Sure, it may not meet some sort of political or legal definition, but it was a war.
> 
> Just curious as to how long ago that was?  The torch has pretty much been passed to the Vietnam/Korean war vets at my post.  Even more recent war veterans are being elected as officers.
> 
> ...


Thanks- I just might join ya for a drink- as far as the VFW or American Legion- no thanks- Still have a nasty taste in my mouth from that  situation


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## kuntawguro (Mar 6, 2007)

http://www.record-eagle.com/2007/feb/24soloman.htm

 This is one of my students/ Black Belt  they out out a search for the  thief, come to find out after two weeks - he was sitting in jail for a parole violation- so , for 2 weeks they went searching everywhere- when they already had him.
 Go figure


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## kuntawguro (Mar 6, 2007)

http://www.record-eagle.com/2007/jan/21soldier.htm
http://www.record-eagle.com/2007/mar/02injail.htm


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## crushing (Mar 6, 2007)

kuntawguro said:


> http://www.record-eagle.com/2007/feb/24soloman.htm
> 
> This is one of my students/ Black Belt they out out a search for the thief, come to find out after two weeks - he was sitting in jail for a parole violation- so , for 2 weeks they went searching everywhere- when they already had him.
> Go figure


 

Best wishes go out to Sgt Soloman and his family.  I hope his wife will be able to go home soon and she fully recovers.

It looks like from your next post that they caught the guy.  Hopefully the fact from the article "The VFW raised about $40,000 for the Soloman family to date" helps change your mind somewhat about the VFW.  It's a good outfit.

I hope the thief is nailed to the fullest extent of the law.


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## CoryKS (Mar 8, 2007)

Here are the follow-ups to the link I posted a while back.

Many 1967-72 Spitting Incidents Are Documented in the Press

Spitting Report, Part II: Of Civilian Airports and Attempted Debunkings

SPITTING REPORT III: EVIDENCE RELEVANT TO ONE OF BOB GREENES SPITTING ACCOUNTS

Spitting Report IV: Opposition To The Troops

Spitting Report V: Servicemen and Anti-War Activists at the Airport

Spitting Report VI: Academic Folklore


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