# Former criminals run Taekwondo headquarters?



## Alex Gillis (Mar 1, 2010)

Hi,

Has anyone been following the coverage about Kukkiwon president Lee Seng-wan and South Korea putting the Kukkiwon under government control? I'm a black belt in TKD who wrote a book about TKD's history (A Killing Art: The Untold History of Tae Kwon Do). I just recently heard about Lee's presidency. In case you don't know, he's a former Korean godfather who served time in prison for various criminal activities, including TKD shenanigans. Even after all I've seen, I was surprised to see that he's president. There seemed to be some effort put into cleaning up TKD.

In 1987, under a South Korean dictatorship, Lee was the  godfather of a gang hired by Korean politicians to attack a new democratic  party. Fifty hoodlums, backed by the Korean Central Intelligence Agency, descended on twenty meetings, destroying furniture and attacking  people with clubs. Korean media extensively covered the story. Lee  Seng-Wan (also spelled Seung Wan and Sung Wan) had been a national  sparring champion in the 1960s and had become head of the Jidokwan, one  of the nine gyms that had formed Kim Un-Yong's World Taekwondo  Federation (WTF). Lee was sentenced to 1.5 years in prison for his role  in the 1987 attack -- called the _Yongpal Incident_.

That was only the first of a couple of illegal activities that involved martial artists.

Does anyone know much about the Lee situation and South Korea's response? I'm new to martialtalk.

Alex Gillis


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## d1jinx (Mar 2, 2010)

I have been trying to keep up with it to the best I can with whats published on the internet.  Link us to any blogs you may have on it.  I would enjoy reading them.


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## Miles (Mar 2, 2010)

Welcome to MT!



Alex Gillis said:


> In 1987, under a South Korean dictatorship, Lee was the godfather of a gang hired by Korean politicians to attack a new democratic party. Fifty hoodlums, backed by the Korean Central Intelligence Agency, descended on twenty meetings, destroying furniture and attacking people with clubs.


 
So he didn't actually hit anyone, he was the godfather?

It was politicians versus politicians?  The hoodlums were backed by the government (KCIA)?  Usually, like history, that means the story of the victors is that which is told.  It also usually means the fall guys are small potatoes.....



Alex Gillis said:


> Lee Seng-Wan (also spelled Seung Wan and Sung Wan) had been a national sparring champion in the 1960s and had become head of the Jidokwan, one of the nine gyms that had formed Kim Un-Yong's World Taekwondo Federation (WTF).


 
The kwans did not form the WTF.  It was formed by representatives from various countries.  The kwans gave their promotional authority to the Kukkiwon which was the "national gym" so to speak.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 2, 2010)

Hey Alex I enjoyed your book and featured it somewhere on my blog 
The Instinctive Edge!  Definitely a good read!


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## terryl965 (Mar 2, 2010)

Alex if I may ask youa few question?

1) Why are you so against the WTF and KKW exactly?

2) What is your sole purpose coming here to MT to engage in civil converstation or to bash in the KKW and WTF?

3) It seems everywhere you go it is the same, complain and then give what you believe to be the real history of TKD?

4) Can you explain to me what it is you plan to gain from all of this?


You see Alex I am not always happy with the WTF or the KKW but I do relize what is needed for the betterment of the art as well as the sport of TKD. I also relize that politics whether it comes from Korea or the U.S. is simply not the place for any of us. I have enjoyed your book and believe you have some very value points but I am confused of your longtime compaign against both orgs or atleast it seem that way. Looking forward to your answers and some great converstation.


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## dortiz (Mar 2, 2010)

I never took it as such but will like to see what he says. I think its part of the story that should be out there. 
Regardless of whos version it does make sense that those with criminal records should not hold those posts. If it was political then get them pardoned but if not I get that point.
Its equally as important to get what Miles was touching on. We have to understand how everything was run and what went down. Its not as cut and dry as we like our history to be. By the way there is a lot of similar seasoning in our pot of the last 100 years ; )

Dave O.


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## d1jinx (Mar 2, 2010)

dortiz said:


> I never took it as such but will like to see what he says. I think its part of the story that should be out there.
> Regardless of whos version it does make sense that those with criminal records should not hold those posts. If it was political then get them pardoned but if not I get that point.
> Its equally as important to get what Miles was touching on. We have to understand how everything was run and what went down. Its not as cut and dry as we like our history to be. By the way there is a lot of similar seasoning in our pot of the last 100 years ; )
> 
> Dave O.


 
Absolutely.  If the British had won, our founding fathers would have been the biggest criminals in history sparking a violent uprising which resulted in war.  Sure the victors always get to write history, and regardless of which side you are on, i think the history should be the truth, not biased.

Having said that, What Alex has said, I have heard before.  Not just from him, but from Koreans and Korean news articles.  

Its like the hippies in the 60's and 70's protesting and getting busted.  They got a criminal record, but so what.... it was the time and for what they believed in....  today things are more complicated.  Do I believe that should be held over them forever?  NO.  But I also dont know the whole story behind all of this and I am curious to know before i pass judgement.

At this point, I dont know enough about the subject to have an opinion.

But I wanna know more.


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## Alex Gillis (Mar 3, 2010)

Hi everyone,

I blogged about Lee Seng-wan and Kim Un-young (akillingart.com/blog), and I wrote about them in my book. Besides the 1987 hate-in, Lee spent years in prison for his involvement in a 2003 initiative to hire 300 gangsters and martial artists to disrupt a presidential election of the Korean Taekwondo Association (KTA). There were other parts to the violent scandal. I'm not up-to-date on the list of shenanigans, but Korean-language media called Lee a "godfather."

Kim Un-young, who is honorary chairman of the Kukkiwon, was a high-ranking Korean CIA agent in the US, implicated in a terrifying campaign run by South Korea's dictator at the time. That was aside from the embezzlement and other wondrous transactions later on. You know the stories, I'm sure.

And don't get me started about the ITF organizations. That's for another thread.

My point in raising this is to highlight the gap between TKD leaders doing bad work and TKD instructors and students on the ground who try to do good by TKD. Our high falutin' values that are listed here and there actually mean something to many instructors and students. I wonder about some of the leaders though, especially the ones who turn a blind eye. Someone has to stand up for the virtues in our martial art, don't you think?

Also, I'm an investigative journalist and martial artist, and my inclination is towards transparency. Perhaps someone out there is fluent in Korean and can provide details from Korean newspaper archives about Lee's background and the unfolding scandal. We can't fight a disease if we don't know what it is in the first place.

This is important stuff, because there are TKD leaders and instructors who are against criminal activity, martial artists who try to follow the art's tenets and virtues and who sometimes fight directly against corruption and terror -- and they need all the support they can get. Since the beginning of TKD, there have always been folks and organizations who have fought against violence and corruption, and who have advocated for transparency and fairness. I get emails from WTF and ITF instructors all the time, from 1st dans and 7th dans, from grandmasters and white belts, and the message is always the same: thanks for the info. We need to keep talking, here and in other places.

Also, I'm here because I heard that martialtalk is one of the better forums. This is the only forum that I'm on.

Alex


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2010)

Welcome to MT, Alex!

I know that the Kukkiwon certainly has its administrative missteps and personnel issues.  I have heard a good amount of what you have posted, though I have not followed it closely as of late.

I assume that you are *the* Alex Gilles (A killing art).  Good to meet you, sir!

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Mar 4, 2010)

Alex Martial Talk is the greatest place for converstation, but I have seen trends before by people. I know you post on TKDnet the same things. I am just concern about certain things when people have a chip on there back. I relixe not everybody is perfect and makes mistakes, but in today society if we hold every person to these higher standards than we need to get rid of 99% of our own government. I will keep an open mind when you are posting your findings but please back everything up with proper docs.


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## Alex Gillis (Mar 5, 2010)

Hi Terryl965,

What's TKDnet? Either that's a very old post or my memory is going. I don't remember posting there. This is the only forum that I've been on for the past year. Many people quote me, or maybe you're mixing me up with someone else. I sign all my posts with my full name, so people know who's talking. Transparency is extremely important in our art -- which is full of shadows and secrets.

About "former criminals," I think making mistakes is one thing, but being convicted of crimes is another. Are you suggesting that we have an open mind about the Kukkiwon and who leads it? Also, to compare 99% of our government to Korean godfathers is stretch, don't you think? I don't mean any disrespect, but you're asking an author who published a book full of hundreds of footnotes to "back everything up with proper docs." Maybe you haven't read A Killing Art. I spent seven years on it. Perhaps I should scan the 4,000 pages of U.S. Congressional documents that I read about Kim Un-young, the Korean CIA and Koreagate and paste them into one of these forums? Lee Seung-wan was a minor player in the big scheme of things in the 1970s and 1980s, but he's major now.

Talk to you soon,

Alex
akillingart.com



terryl965 said:


> Alex Martial Talk is the greatest place for converstation, but I have seen trends before by people. I know you post on TKDnet the same things. I am just concern about certain things when people have a chip on there back. I relixe not everybody is perfect and makes mistakes, but in today society if we hold every person to these higher standards than we need to get rid of 99% of our own government. I will keep an open mind when you are posting your findings but please back everything up with proper docs.


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## Alex Gillis (Mar 5, 2010)

Hi Terryl965,

My answers are below:



terryl965 said:


> Alex if I may ask youa few question?
> 
> 1) Why are you so against the WTF and KKW exactly?
> 
> ...



AG: How, exactly, will the Kukkiwon get better with the current leaders? Also, how will the martial art get better if it's infiltrated by gangsters, godfathers and secret service agents in WTF, ITF or wherever?

Alex Gillis


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## terryl965 (Mar 5, 2010)

Alex I have read your book and thought it was very siteful and I also enjoyed it. I am not trying to get you angry or anything, I am trying to be a positive person about the Art I love and enjoy for the last forty years. I sent you a PM because I do not want to say certain things out in the open. I hope the KKW will get better with communication and making the right decisssion over time. When and if this ever will happen I do not know but I am a positive person and hopes for the best.


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## terryl965 (Mar 5, 2010)

Alex just wanted to say that I found your blog and will give it some proper attention after this weekend tournament. I did look it over and seems to have alot of info, Thanks for the tip.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2010)

TKD.net is no longer in existence to my knowledge.  TKDSpace had been a part of it and the two were separated, with TKDSpace being owned by Kalyn Amadio.  I am an admin on TKDSpace.

TKD.net has been gone to my knowledge for well over a year, possibly over two.

To be fair to Alex, he is not the first one on MT to voice such concerns.  I am not sure of the ultimate outcome, but wasn't some guy acting as president last year who had a whole host of either convictions or was involved in corruption scandals?  There were a couple of threads on this as I recall.

Daniel


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## dortiz (Mar 7, 2010)

We are taling about a differnt TKD.net. Glenns list.


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## Alex Gillis (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi Terry,

Now I'm confused. You wrote that I posted something on TKD.net. I  responded that I've never posted there -- that I've been only on  martialtalk.com -- but you reply in a private email with a quote from  someone I've never heard of, someone from TKD.net who's talking about me. Also, that someone  obviously never read my book, because the point he makes about the North  Koreans is exactly the point I make in the book. I'm not sure what the big secret is, why you'd need to send a private message. Everyone knows that General Choi went to North Korea, and almost everyone knows that the vast majority of his masters left him, partly because of North Korea and partly because of enticements from the WTF. My book lists some of top  ITF masters that left General Choi when he went to North Korea in the  late 1970s, including my former instructor, Grandmaster Park Jong-Soo, who was one of the first to leave Choi. 

Terry, this thread is getting a bit silly. Let's put it out of it's misery, shall we?

Alex



terryl965 said:


> Alex I have read your book and thought it was very siteful and I also enjoyed it. I am not trying to get you angry or anything, I am trying to be a positive person about the Art I love and enjoy for the last forty years. I sent you a PM because I do not want to say certain things out in the open. I hope the KKW will get better with communication and making the right decisssion over time. When and if this ever will happen I do not know but I am a positive person and hopes for the best.


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## terryl965 (Mar 7, 2010)

No problem Alex carry on with everything you are doing. I will leave it alone and so should you. Have a wonderful day.


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## miguksaram (Mar 10, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> No problem Alex carry on with everything you are doing. I will leave it alone and so should you. Have a wonderful day.


 
As he already pointed out, Alex has never posted on TKD.net, though I feel that if he wants to help bring some more legitamcy to his book he should.  The people over there are very well versed in TKD history and can offer a great deal of insight themselves.  

Alex, your book comes off as pretty much ITF propoganda, and being that you are former ITF, people will most likey think as such.  You mentioned you spoke with KCIA and other anonymous people.  Could you provide a list of these peope to a private email along with their contact information?  Perhaps to give others a chance to dig into this information fro themselves and get a clear view of what is going on.


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## terryl965 (Mar 10, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> As he already pointed out, Alex has never posted on TKD.net, though I feel that if he wants to help bring some more legitamcy to his book he should. The people over there are very well versed in TKD history and can offer a great deal of insight themselves.
> 
> Alex, your book comes off as pretty much ITF propoganda, and being that you are former ITF, people will most likey think as such. You mentioned you spoke with KCIA and other anonymous people. Could you provide a list of these peope to a private email along with their contact information? Perhaps to give others a chance to dig into this information fro themselves and get a clear view of what is going on.


 

This is the TKD.net I am talking about 
*We are taling about a differnt TKD.net. Glenns list.*


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 10, 2010)

Miles said:


> Welcome to MT!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That thought went through my mind just before reading your response. The winners write the histories.
Sean


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## Alex Gillis (Mar 12, 2010)

Hi guys,

This thread is like being in Alice in Wonderland (or maybe "Alex in Wonderland"). I originally posting about the Kukkiwon and criminals and, now, we're discussing whether or not I was on TKD.net #1 or TKD.net #2. Bizarre. And you're insulting me by saying my book was "ITF propaganda." I have a tough skin, but this is ridiculous. Miguksaram, have you actually checked out the index and references in my book? If I had included more documented proof of KCIA activity, then the references would have been longer than the KCIA sections. Propaganda usually doesn't include footnotes from academics and U.S. Congressional documents.

If it's any consolation to you fellows, a former American CIA agent wrote to me to say that I'd gotten the facts right but that he was going to hunt me down anyway.



Anyway, I'm headed to other threads. There are only so many Chesire grins I can take in one week. I suspect your hearts are in the right places. Keep on training, guys. It's all we've got.

Alex Gillis



miguksaram said:


> As he already pointed out, Alex has never posted on TKD.net, though I feel that if he wants to help bring some more legitamcy to his book he should.  The people over there are very well versed in TKD history and can offer a great deal of insight themselves.
> 
> Alex, your book comes off as pretty much ITF propoganda, and being that you are former ITF, people will most likey think as such.  You mentioned you spoke with KCIA and other anonymous people.  Could you provide a list of these peope to a private email along with their contact information?  Perhaps to give others a chance to dig into this information fro themselves and get a clear view of what is going on.


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## terryl965 (Mar 12, 2010)

Alex Gillis said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> This thread is like being in Alice in Wonderland (or maybe "Alex in Wonderland"). I originally posting about the Kukkiwon and criminals and, now, we're discussing whether or not I was on TKD.net #1 or TKD.net #2. Bizarre. And you're insulting me by saying my book was "ITF propaganda." I have a tough skin, but this is ridiculous. Miguksaram, have you actually checked out the index and references in my book? If I had included more documented proof of KCIA activity, then the references would have been longer than the KCIA sections. Propaganda usually doesn't include footnotes from academics and U.S. Congressional documents.
> 
> ...


 

Alex remember we can all dis-agree and still post and remain perfectly polite while doing it. I hope you can still post and give your inside here for us to read and learn a few things.


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## Archtkd (Mar 12, 2010)

Alex Gillis said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> This thread is like being in Alice in Wonderland (or maybe "Alex in Wonderland"). I originally posting about the Kukkiwon and criminals and, now, we're discussing whether or not I was on TKD.net #1 or TKD.net #2. Bizarre. And you're insulting me by saying my book was "ITF propaganda." I have a tough skin, but this is ridiculous.


 
Alex: Alex: The day I saw the header on your original post something told me the thread was going to careen and disintegrate into bitterness and acrimony. 

MT Taekwondoists often engage in serious and sober debate, but the subject of Kukkiwon leadership  the elephant in the room so to speak  is another matter. Who really wants a candid discussion? 

I sometime wonder what kind of debate we would have if a reformed former associate of the Chicago chapter of La Cosa Nostra or the LA Crips where to suddenly become the head of USA Taekwondo. Better yet, how about a supporter of the Continuity Irish Republican Army, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, or the Shining Path (Sendero Luminoso). The latter are more bona fide liberation movements, arent they?

I still love and respect the Kukkiwon and it's great teachers, but ..... Maybe, here's where I should exercise my constitutional rights to plead the fifth.


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