# to switch schools or not??? (again)



## cfr (Apr 18, 2004)

Im going to try to make this long winded story as short as possible. But if I dont give all this info you may not get a feel for my dilema and not understand why Im so torn on this whole deal.

The reasons I train are for SD and for fun. Thats it. To uphold ancient tradition, get more self discipline, understand the deeper meaning of life, etc., are neat if thats your thing, but its not mine.

My training history:

 I started training about 2 1/2 years ago in a garage. A combination of BJJ, Judo, Kickboxing, and JJJ. I was with him for 6 months but then he moved away. I would have been with hime forever as we trained well together and I really dug it. 

From there I went to a Hapkido school. 6 months later I came to realize that the school I was at was pretty unrealistic. A McDojo if you will.

So from there I went to a Kenpo school for 3 months. My take on katas is you are one side of the fence or the other. If you beleive in them, nobody can convince you that you are wasting your time. If you dont beleive in them, nobody can make you see how valuable they are. They are not for me. (I really dont want to start the Kata war here so please just accept that they are not for me, and I am happy for you if you beleive deeply in them.) 

So then I went to where Im at now. Ive been there for 11 months of my year long contract. We do a combination of Muay Thai, JKD, and FMA. I dig it alot. It seems pretty realistic. We never puch the air, always focus mitts or pads. No katas. My instuctor grew up in the Phillipines and has been in lots of fights. And he's trained with some pretty well credentialed people. The one small thing I hate about it is the sparring situation. 2 - 2 1/2 years to start sparring. Lots of drills until then. Even un-timed drills to learn from. But no totally unscripted sparring for me for another 1 - 1 1/2 years. 

Due to my bouncing around in schools Ive never sparred. I really want too as it seems an invaluable part of training to those of you who do it. A Muay Thai school opened up a few months ago near me and I stopped by to talk to the instructor. At this school I would begin light MT sparring about 2 weeks after starting. As mentioned the school Im @ now does year long contracts. I could go month to month but it would be quite costly. I really do love my school, the ciriculum, and the instructor, but hate the fact that it takes us so long to spar. On the other hand, I beleive alot in MT. I love doing it at my school. But dont beleive its the end all be all for SD. A very huge part of it, but not all of it. 


Basically, Im tired of bouncing around. But need to spar. Even the McDojo Hapkido school I went to had people sparring in 6 - 8 months. True it was pretty cheesy looking sparring, but it was something. MT has always fascinated me. Its definately my strong point at the school Im @ now. But since my main goal is SD, I like the weapons, takedowns of the other styles I do as well. So what would you do if you were in my shoes?


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## theletch1 (Apr 18, 2004)

If your happy where you are with the exception of the sparring ask the instructor if your previous experience could count toward your time for sparring OR get a friend and spar on your free time.  If the school is great other than the sparring situation simply find a way around it.


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## cfr (Apr 18, 2004)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> If your happy where you are with the exception of the sparring ask the instructor if your previous experience could count toward your time for sparring OR get a friend and spar on your free time.  If the school is great other than the sparring situation simply find a way around it.



My previous time wont count as I would need to be in a higher ranking class to be able to spar. As far as sparring outside of class, the instructor highly discourages it. I would still be willing, but dont think that many of the other students would.


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## MJS (Apr 18, 2004)

cfr said:
			
		

> > So then I went to where Im at now. Ive been there for 11 months of my year long contract. We do a combination of Muay Thai, JKD, and FMA. I dig it alot. It seems pretty realistic. We never puch the air, always focus mitts or pads. No katas. My instuctor grew up in the Phillipines and has been in lots of fights. And he's trained with some pretty well credentialed people. The one small thing I hate about it is the sparring situation. 2 - 2 1/2 years to start sparring. Lots of drills until then. Even un-timed drills to learn from. But no totally unscripted sparring for me for another 1 - 1 1/2 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 18, 2004)

It is sometimes verry hard to find that one school the fits all your needs.
Sometimes you  must find one that meets more needs than other schools , then live with what you have and not worry about what you dont.
 You may need to change schools once again but this time try hard to find the one that will give you the training you want.  You seem to want to learn so do not give up, but try to make the nxt one the one you will stay with.
 Best of luck


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## cfr (Apr 18, 2004)

I was just thinking about maybe doing MT for something like a year just to get some sparring under my belt and then going back to where Im at. Ive got a month to figure it out so we'll see.


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## Phoenix44 (Apr 29, 2004)

Do you realize that this is the first time you've stuck with anything longer than 6 months?  No offense, but that's not really long enough to get proficient at anything, even in the context of training on and off for a couple of years.  

My opinion:  If you're basically satisfied with your current situation, then stay the path.  Get really good at something.  If you feel the need to spar, and that's not an option at your school, then see if you can take some private lessons elsewhere, to supplement your current training.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 29, 2004)

Two years to spar in my opinion is not even close to realistic. 

But aside from that I would say stay where your at AND on the side go to the Thai school 2 days a week. You might not be right for Thai and realize you were already in the right place without having to of left it.

If you like the Thai you can always quit one school. Training 2 days a week at 2 differant schools isn't unrealistic at all.

 :asian:


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## c2kenpo (Apr 29, 2004)

Just to toss a thought out here but have being been in school managment before the reason your school my not be offering sparring untill a certian time frame may be due to his liability insurance. (Sounds fetchy but within reason).

I agree with many here if outside of sparring you are happy with the overall curriculum and what you are learning stay the course you may be suprised about what you have learned when you get to the sparring section.

If you have a YMCA or other program nearby some I know have a boxing program (LIGHT boxing) that you can join in and get started on the road.

Otherwise good luck on your journey and decision.

Dave Gunzburg


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 29, 2004)

I suggest you stay. Sparring too soon develops bad habbits that are hard to break. You are never going to be satisfied no matter which school you go to, because, they will all be unlike your first taste of martial arts to some extent. This school sounds about as close as you are going to get without kidnapping your former instructor. In five years the sparring thing won't be an issue. You do intend to continue for life, don't you? :asian: 
Sean


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## MJS (Apr 29, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> I suggest you stay. Sparring too soon develops bad habbits that are hard to break. You are never going to be satisfied no matter which school you go to, because, they will all be unlike your first taste of martial arts to some extent. This school sounds about as close as you are going to get without kidnapping your former instructor. In five years the sparring thing won't be an issue. You do intend to continue for life, don't you? :asian:
> Sean



I agree.  Sparring too soon will most likely develop bad habits, but I think that waiting 2 yrs is a little too long to wait.

Mike


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## cfr (Apr 29, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> Do you realize that this is the first time you've stuck with anything longer than 6 months?




Of course I do, thats why Im in this dilema. Im tired of starting overy but am dying to spar.


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## cfr (Apr 29, 2004)

akja said:
			
		

> Two years to spar in my opinion is not even close to realistic.
> 
> But aside from that I would say stay where your at AND on the side go to the Thai school 2 days a week. You might not be right for Thai and realize you were already in the right place without having to of left it.
> 
> ...



Due to time and $$$, doing 2 schools isnt going to happen. Otherwise Id be all over it. I love doing Thai  @ my school, so I dont think I wouldnt like it.


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## cfr (Apr 29, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> You are never going to be satisfied no matter which school you go to, because, they will all be unlike your first taste of martial arts to some extent. This school sounds about as close as you are going to get without kidnapping your former instructor. You do intend to continue for life, don't you?



An excellent point.  Yes.


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## MMA Combatives (Apr 29, 2004)

If the instructor is a good instructor, stick with the school. A good instructor need not be Bruce Lee...but rather a great coach. You can always incorporate other styles later, but the closer the school, the more you will attend, the more training you'll receive, etc.


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## tumpaiguy (May 4, 2004)

I would definitely say to stay where you are at and do the MT on the side.  The best of both worlds!


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## cfr (May 4, 2004)

tumpaiguy said:
			
		

> I would definitely say to stay where you are at and do the MT on the side.  The best of both worlds!




It would be great. But due to $$$ and time its just not possible.


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## Phoenix44 (May 4, 2004)

Well if it's not feasible to cross-train, then I think the answer is to stay where you are.  As it's been pointed out before, if you keep jumping around, you'll never develop proficiency at anything.   And for what?  So you can spar 9 or 10 months earlier?

PLUS you're not really demonstrating the tenacity and dedication of a martial artist.


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## cfr (May 4, 2004)

This blows. I just started training again this week after about a month layoff for an injury. Testing will take place at my school in a couple of weeks that I wont be a part of because of my time off. Had it not been for this, Im pretty sure I would have been able to test. Since tests only occur once every two months, Ive got that much longer from now until I can spar at my school. Probably a solid year and a half from now. I was already having a tough time with this decision and now this. Not too encouraging. What a drag. I was also thinking about just leveling with my instructor and letting him know how I feel (that its lame to wait to spar for this long) but I really dont want to be offensive or disrespectful. Any thouhts on this idea? Im really in a tailspin about this so ideas are welcome.


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## Touch Of Death (May 5, 2004)

cfr said:
			
		

> This blows. I just started training again this week after about a month layoff for an injury. Testing will take place at my school in a couple of weeks that I wont be a part of because of my time off. Had it not been for this, Im pretty sure I would have been able to test. Since tests only occur once every two months, Ive got that much longer from now until I can spar at my school. Probably a solid year and a half from now. I was already having a tough time with this decision and now this. Not too encouraging. What a drag. I was also thinking about just leveling with my instructor and letting him know how I feel (that its lame to wait to spar for this long) but I really dont want to be offensive or disrespectful. Any thouhts on this idea? Im really in a tailspin about this so ideas are welcome.


By all means go, if thats what you want. This two year rule is meant to weed out any problems that arise with newbees, and your obviously climbing the walls within the first six months. However you could just realize that he is teaching you how to spar. He will spend the next two years showing you and drilling you on what he expects to see. You will meet his standards or you will go elsewhere. I would just stay, but if you can find an instructor of this caliber that willing to let you do what you want, then go for it. I, for one, think it would be a mistake.
Sean


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## Phoenix44 (May 5, 2004)

Everyone who hasn't had to take time out for injuries, raise your hand (or your crutch)?


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## MJS (May 5, 2004)

cfr said:
			
		

> This blows. I just started training again this week after about a month layoff for an injury. Testing will take place at my school in a couple of weeks that I wont be a part of because of my time off. Had it not been for this, Im pretty sure I would have been able to test. Since tests only occur once every two months, Ive got that much longer from now until I can spar at my school. Probably a solid year and a half from now. I was already having a tough time with this decision and now this. Not too encouraging. What a drag. I was also thinking about just leveling with my instructor and letting him know how I feel (that its lame to wait to spar for this long) but I really dont want to be offensive or disrespectful. Any thouhts on this idea? Im really in a tailspin about this so ideas are welcome.



First off, I got your PM.  Thanks for the reply!  I know the Inosanto school seems like a drive, but if you can make it, I'm sure it would be worth it.  As for the injury...dont feel bad dude.  Last year, I was grappling and injured my left knee.  I could hardly walk and was moving like I was an old man.  It definately sucked but as time went on, and it started to heal, I was able to start training again.  Maybe you could get together outside of the school with a few people and do some sparring.  I still dont understand why he makes the students wait so long to spar.  

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (May 5, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> Everyone who hasn't had to take time out for injuries, raise your hand (or your crutch)?


You have a point. Perhaps a new thread topic has just been born.
Sean


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## Phoenix44 (May 5, 2004)

Actually, Sean, I think it is related.  I'm trying to be sympathetic to cfr's dilemma--wanting to continue in his current school and his frustration at not being able to spar.  But no matter what we say, he really seems to want to quit, and it's almost as if he is searching for SOMEONE to agree with him.  Now he's citing his injury, which is delaying his rank test by a mere few months, as additional supporting criterion.

When I asked who of us hasn't been injured, what I'm trying to say is, "Yes, it happens to all of us, it's part of the training, those of us with more experience have experienced it multiple times, but going elsewhere will not change this."  The same thing is going to happen at any other dojo.  ESPECIALLY if you start sparring prematurely.

Impatience, and lack of future vision do not serve the martial artist well.  Others may disagree.


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## Touch Of Death (May 5, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> Actually, Sean, I think it is related.  I'm trying to be sympathetic to cfr's dilemma--wanting to continue in his current school and his frustration at not being able to spar.  But no matter what we say, he really seems to want to quit, and it's almost as if he is searching for SOMEONE to agree with him.  Now he's citing his injury, which is delaying his rank test by a mere few months, as additional supporting criterion.
> 
> When I asked who of us hasn't been injured, what I'm trying to say is, "Yes, it happens to all of us, it's part of the training, those of us with more experience have experienced it multiple times, but going elsewhere will not change this."  The same thing is going to happen at any other dojo.  ESPECIALLY if you start sparring prematurely.
> 
> Impatience, and lack of future vision do not serve the martial artist well.  Others may disagree.


I didn't mean to sound abrupt, I was just trying to figure out why delayed promotion was such a bid deal. In short, I think its a red herring. You are right however, he is definantly searching for a justification to quit.
Sean


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## Phoenix44 (May 5, 2004)

Ditto.


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## cfr (May 5, 2004)

Ive got plenty of justification to quit. Rehearsing scripted motions is getting boring and Im really wondering if it doesnt lead to a false sense of security. Im wondering how Ill react when someone throws a punch that Im not waiting for. I really dont want to totally freeze up because I will be like a fish out of water. Am I totally in left field for thinking this? Really I was hoping for a justification to stay.


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## Disco (May 5, 2004)

The reasons I train are for SD and for fun. Quote from cfr's first post.

This has been debated before, somewhere on here (MT), but I'll reference the subject again, as it directly relates. What does sparring have to do with self defense? If sparring is what you really want to do, go find a TKD school that focus's on Olympic style TKD. You'll get all the sparring you can handle. Or am I misinterpreting what you mean by sparring?


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## cfr (May 5, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> The reasons I train are for SD and for fun. Quote from cfr's first post.
> 
> This has been debated before, somewhere on here (MT), but I'll reference the subject again, as it directly relates. What does sparring have to do with self defense? If sparring is what you really want to do, go find a TKD school that focus's on Olympic style TKD. You'll get all the sparring you can handle. Or am I misinterpreting what you mean by sparring?



Lots of people here seems to find a big value in sparring for SD. Doesnt TKD sparring not allow stikes to the head? Anyways, Isnt there usually a big difference between TKD sparring and MT sparring? I always thought there was, but having never done it I could be wrong.


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## Disco (May 6, 2004)

I'll just quote an old saying,...."You fight like you train".....

TKD sparring (WTF Olympic style) only allows kicks to the head and nothing frontal. But once again, if sparring (not being allowed to) is the crux of your dilemma, then you have answered your own question. Want to spar but can't - leave and find a school that will let you. To quote you again; "for SD and fun" Apparently you fun meter is not registering and the SD aspect of sparring is blown out of the water here, cause you won't be able to spar for 2 yrs. So if you stay at this school, just what are you learning?


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## cfr (May 6, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> I'll just quote an old saying,...."You fight like you train".....
> 
> Apparently you fun meter is not registering and the SD aspect of sparring is blown out of the water here, cause you won't be able to spar for 2 yrs. So if you stay at this school, just what are you learning?



Im lost on this one. Could you please elaborate?


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## cfr (May 6, 2004)

cfr said:
			
		

> Ive got plenty of justification to quit. Rehearsing scripted motions is getting boring and Im really wondering if it doesnt lead to a false sense of security. Im wondering how Ill react when someone throws a punch that Im not waiting for. I really dont want to totally freeze up because I will be like a fish out of water. Am I totally in left field for thinking this? Really I was hoping for a justification to stay.




I just re-read this. So everyone knows, these comments weren't meant at all to sound rude or offensive to anyone. I certainly wasn't trying to snap at anybody. I do value your opinions which is why I posted something that I was certain would not be viewed at kindly by most. My questions were sincere. I do wonder if being in MA for a total of 3 - 3 1/2 years (accumulated from all my schools) before ever sparring wouldnt lead to a false sense of security. I do wonder if it would do me more harm than good to stay where Im at.


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## Ceicei (May 6, 2004)

cfr said:
			
		

> My questions were sincere. I do wonder if being in MA for a total of 3 - 3 1/2 years (accumulated from all my schools) before ever sparring wouldnt lead to a false sense of security. I do wonder if it would do me more harm than good to stay where Im at.


Jumping from school to school may not give you as good a base as you might have needed/wanted.  Basically, what is your goal?  What do you wish to gain from studying a martial art?  How do you envision yourself in the future?

- Ceicei


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## Touch Of Death (May 7, 2004)

cfr said:
			
		

> I just re-read this. So everyone knows, these comments weren't meant at all to sound rude or offensive to anyone. I certainly wasn't trying to snap at anybody. I do value your opinions which is why I posted something that I was certain would not be viewed at kindly by most. My questions were sincere. I do wonder if being in MA for a total of 3 - 3 1/2 years (accumulated from all my schools) before ever sparring wouldnt lead to a false sense of security. I do wonder if it would do me more harm than good to stay where Im at.


I being serious here. Your current instructor expects a certain set of standards to be met before you step in the ring. Its not a bad method of training. How can you be over confident if you are worried about being over confident? He wants your kicks to be awesome, your punches crisp and effective, and trading punches with an opponent is no time to be fumbling through your stances and switches. In short, no one is trying to convince you that you are ready for a street situation. If you want in the ring now, I'm sure you will find someone to take your money; however, your ability to improve will be so stiffled that you will never and I mean never accomplish what was to be accomplished in the trial two year waiting period, or should I say training period; because you will always be right back where you started and afraid to try something new.
Sean


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## XkempoX (May 7, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> I being serious here. Your current instructor expects a certain set of standards to be met before you step in the ring. Its not a bad method of training. How can you be over confident if you are worried about being over confident? He wants your kicks to be awesome, your punches crisp and effective, and trading punches with an opponent is no time to be fumbling through your stances and switches.
> 
> Let me start with a saying "Patience is a Virtue".
> 
> I totally agree with Sean. Having trained with various MA systems prior to training in Muay Thai/JKD, I have learned to be more patient every time I jumped from one system to another. There are times that you feel you are ready to advance to the next level, but through your instructor's experienced eyes sometimes you're not. BTW, injury do happen, whether in or out of training. I was in a mountain biking accident last year and fractured my shoulder, and was on a sling for 6 months. But the bottom line is, don't give up even though you have start from scratch again -- to attain perfection. Hang in there, my friend.... Hope I'm making sense....


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 7, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> I being serious here. Your current instructor expects a certain set of standards to be met before you step in the ring. Its not a bad method of training. How can you be over confident if you are worried about being over confident? He wants your kicks to be awesome, your punches crisp and effective, and trading punches with an opponent is no time to be fumbling through your stances and switches. In short, no one is trying to convince you that you are ready for a street situation. If you want in the ring now, I'm sure you will find someone to take your money; however, your ability to improve will be so stiffled that you will never and I mean never accomplish what was to be accomplished in the trial two year waiting period, or should I say training period; because you will always be right back where you started and afraid to try something new.
> Sean


Having slummed it around a few kickboxing gyms, I have seen a thing that can't be good. Some coaches believe (and I'm sure they have a reason) that a would-be should get in the ring day one, and start getting hit by a superior. Near as I could tell, all it ever did was condition people into gun shy habits that were a beyotch to break.   I.e., closing the eyes when a blow is coming, flinching, etc. Lose your center, lose your fight. Sparring is vitally important to the development of interactive combat skills/capabilities, such as timing, distance, developing strategies of attack, defense, counter-attack that work with your specific strengths and weaknesses, but de-programming a bad habit is harder than taking your time to make sure you never get it in the first place.

D.


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## OC Kid (May 8, 2004)

I noticed that you are in Calif. SoCal has some excellent schools that have open sparring nights. For a nominal fee (or in some cases free) they will let you come and sparr. If you are in the Huntington Beach area check out Bob Whites Kempo Karate during the 80's and 90's he had some of the best tournament fighters in the country under him. Another good place is American Kempo karate in San Diego on El Cajon Blvd. Todd also has a open sparring class and has also trained some of the best fighters in the country.
Chicken Gabriel has a school in downtown San Diego. I you want just to spar then checkout one of these schools or give them a call and they can direct you to a school near your home.


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