# Do you like traditional Kata?



## Mark77 (Oct 10, 2009)

I'm talking about traditional kata, with very low position (like in Shotokan). Do you think are they important? If so, why many full contact karate style, like Enshin and Ashihara, completely changed these kind of kata?


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## twendkata71 (Oct 10, 2009)

*Like most karate ka in history, they changed kata to suit their own bodytype. *
*Even Funakoshi said that deep stances are for the novice and short more natural stances are for the advanced student. *


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 10, 2009)

I like the old kata

I feel the deep stances help build strong legs and mental attitude


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## blindsage (Oct 10, 2009)

Mark77 said:


> I'm talking about traditional kata, with very low position (like in Shotokan). Do you think are they important? If so, why many full contact karate style, like Enshin and Ashihara, completely changed these kind of kata?


How have Enshin and Ashihara changed them?


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## Guliufa (Oct 10, 2009)

The kata that you are discussing are Japanese and they are not really the "Old" way of doing kata. 

The old kata are the Okinawan kata - and they are more upright with the legs pulling in to protect the vital areas and points.


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## Haze (Oct 11, 2009)

Seeing how karate is an Okinawan art we must look bak to the kata of Naha te or Shuri te to see what is koryu. 

These stances seem more upright than the kata of the Japanese yet through time all arts have been altered to meet the needs of the people.

Long stances build leg strength but no one would fight from those stances yet a low stance may serve well if you are trying to avoid a throw.

So there is a time for it and a time to not use it.

Everything has a purpose if you look for it.


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## Ironcrane (Oct 11, 2009)

I do have a soft spot for Goju-Ryu. Mostly because that was my frist Martial Art. But I am a fan of Kyukushin, even though I don't get to see much of it.


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## kingkong89 (Oct 11, 2009)

Katas are very important the differences in style are just the difference from the reagion that the stle comes from


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## K-man (Oct 11, 2009)

For many years I thought that the kata were a total waste of time.  Unfortunately I was learning kata that had been changed from the original to suit the Japanese.  Now that I am back studying the Okinawan kata, I find them truly fascinating.  But as 'Guliufa' said, be aware of what is 'traditional'.   :asian:


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## chinto (Oct 12, 2009)

I like traditional kata, and they have proven themselves effective in teaching what does indeed work in combat.


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## Grenadier (Oct 12, 2009)

Kata of all types are good training tools.  They compliment the kumite aspect, since kata give you a chance to practice techniques at full speed, while also perfecting the mechanics.  

Kumite allows you to use those improved mechanics and polish them to a different extent, which in turn, will help the kata in return.  It's a wonderful cycle, and it's not unusual to see the winners of kata competition at the USA-NKF regionals also doing very well in kumite, and vice versa.  

Different kata will improve different aspects of your technique.  For example (this is not an all-inclusive list for the specified kata; there's so much more to learn): 

Kata Sochin - will help condition your legs (just ask anyone who does the kata regularly), while also improving your raw power.  

Kata Chinto / Gankaku - helps your balance, especially when it comes to standing on one foot at times.

Kata Jion - multiple low stances, fundamental-heavy kata, improves endurance, while maintaining the quality of technique. 

Kata Unsu - improves speed / explosiveness, awareness, agility, as well as sharpening techniques that are thrown from the ground, as well as in the air.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 12, 2009)

Mark77 said:


> I'm talking about traditional kata, with very low position (like in Shotokan). Do you think are they important? If so, why many full contact karate style, like Enshin and Ashihara, completely changed these kind of kata?


I like the deep stances when performing kata and I like traditional kata as well.  As Tshadowchaser said, the deep stances build strong legs.

Daniel


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## K-man (Oct 12, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> Kata of all types are good training tools. They compliment the kumite aspect, since kata give you a chance to practice techniques at full speed, while also perfecting the mechanics.
> 
> Kumite allows you to use those improved mechanics and polish them to a different extent, which in turn, will help the kata in return. It's a wonderful cycle, and it's not unusual to see the winners of kata competition at the USA-NKF regionals also doing very well in kumite, and vice versa.
> 
> ...


And here I, respectfully, must disagree with you. Basically what you have posted refers to 'sport' MA and competition. Kata has been changed from the 'traditional' to be more appealing to judges, and, in many instances, changed by teachers who were never shown the original meanings and modified the technique to 'make it work better'. 'Traditional' kata has a lot to do with what you have written about conditioning and sharpening technique, but absolutely nothing to do with competition. Competition has only existed for the past 50 or 60 years and is primarilly based on the martial arts that were introduced into the schools and Universities. Kata were designed to pass on a fighting system from generation to generation, usually within the family. To link the techniques in 'traditional' kata to sport kumite makes no sense to me. :asian:


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## TimoS (Oct 13, 2009)

kingkong89 said:


> Katas are very important the differences in style are just the difference from the reagion that the stle comes from


Well, kind of. Shuri, Tomari and Naha, however, were (and still are) very close to each other, the distances from one to another are only few kilometers, so in my opinion the different styles are not so much a result of geography but of individual teachers.


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## Mark77 (Oct 13, 2009)

blindsage said:


> How have Enshin and Ashihara changed them?



Look here :




As you can see, Ashihara kata are more similar to kumite positions and, im my opinion, are also more "realistic" and useful than kata you can find in Shotokan (i always talk about Shotokan just because is the style i know better). I don't know about Enshin, but i think is the same. If you fight like Kick or Muay Thai i really don't know how deep stances could help you.
Ok, maybe these are good for legs, but for this goal there are better exercises, like squat, for example.
PS: i know, when we talk about "old kata" we have to talk about Okinawan kata. I usually say "old" because also Shotokan has changed a lot in the years. Look, for example, WKF and JKA: they really seems different styles.


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## Haze (Oct 13, 2009)

I have to disagree that technique from "old" kata can transfer over to sport kumite. I have never seen any breaks, knee kicks, nukite to the throat, eye gouges, chokes or any of this used. 

With sport kumite we go back to kick and punch karate also know as school boy karate because this is what the watered down system taught in the school system in Okinawa and Japan and this is what seems to be what most American G.I's after 18 months of training while stationed in these places brought home to the US

And now there seems to be this resurgence in the last 10 yrs or so to find the "hidden secrets" of kata.


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## shihansmurf (Oct 13, 2009)

Yep.

I agree with Haze. Everything has a purpose.

The kata are useful for a variety of training results and can be adapted for such. That's the beauty of them.

Mark


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## Cayuga Karate (Oct 14, 2009)

Regarding the topic, yes, I like traditional kata. Whether the more modern Japanese implementations of deeper stances, or the earlier Okinawan systems with, generally, more upright stances, I believe the practice of kata has all sorts of benefits.

Going off-topic...(my apologies)

If Chinto would respond, I would be grateful for clarification on a point you made. Chinto wrote:



> [Kata] have proven themselves effective in teaching what does indeed work in combat.


 
Years ago when I began training, I was taught that karate techniques were proven in combat and on the battlefield. I also know that some Karateka, such as Zenpo Shimabukuro, use the term combat in describing the effectiveness of karate techniques. 

In general, it's not often that I hear the term 'combat' used to describe empty-hand self defense. In my mind, the term is more often associated with more military-like fighting. 

I would be grateful if Chinto might share his understanding of the term and whether it is just a short term for street-fighting or empty-hand self defense, or whether combat, in the sense used, retains it's military connotation.

I am not raising the issue to no purpose. I am deeply interested in any and all references by Okinawans to "military" origins of modern karate movements. My study of kata has led me to believe that they are based on combat movements useful on the battlefield hundreds of years ago. When I come across the use of the term 'combat', I always want to understand the use of the term.

Thanks.


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## punisher73 (Oct 15, 2009)

Mark77 said:


> Look here :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Depends on your goal.  Ashihara and Enshin created their katas for the same purpose...to fight in the ring.  All of their kata conform to the rules of their sport.

If you kick like Muay Thai you aren't going to be kicking when someone bum rushes you and knocks you off balance.  That is the purpose of the low stances like in Seuichin kata (Goju-Ryu), it is a grappling kata and you are setting lower to maintain balance and not be thrown down.  

The function of kata is not to prepare you to enter into a fighting competition and "duel" each other.  They are designed as a civilian fighting system to prepare you for a surprise encounter and injure your opponent and get away, and they are very good at that purpose with the tools they give you.


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## Joab (Oct 15, 2009)

The closest to that that I have done was in tae kwon do. Yes, I did like it, although I'm not convinced being good at kata has anything at all to do with how well you would do in a serious self defense situation on the streets. But I did like it, I still practice some of it because I enjoy it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 15, 2009)

Joab said:


> The closest to that that I have done was in tae kwon do. Yes, I did like it, although I'm not convinced being good at kata has anything at all to do with how well you would do in a serious self defense situation on the streets.


In and of itself it really does not.  All Taekwondo kata that I am familiar with (though they call them poomsae or hyung) are very similar to Shotokan kata.  They are all done solo.  Typically, TKD kata have kicks sooner and do not emphasize low stances to the same degree.

About the only correlation between performing a solo kata and practical use is whether or not you are performing the techniques well.  Otherwise, how you handle yourself against an opponent is not really a function of kata.  That is handled in kumite, or in the case of taekwondo, kyorugi.

Daniel


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## Cayuga Karate (Oct 15, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan wrote:



> About the only correlation between performing a solo kata and practical use is whether or not you are performing the techniques well.


 
I have a bit of a different perspective. I believe for many kata sequences, that the actual repetition of techniques, solo, can help in self defense, but not if they are practiced only as they are in kata. 

Many karate systems have punctuated sequences of movements with numerous pauses. While the practice of these pauses may have utility in learning the correct movements, successful use of movements in fighting generally requires them to be practiced fast, with no pauses. 

In the Shito Ryu version of Kusanku Dai (Kanku Dai), this serious student shows numerous slow movements and pauses, followed by some sequences done at blistering speeds. I would argue that to make a sequence useful, that it needs to be practiced solo, at high speeds. 

Partner work is also essential, but in my view, the timing of many kata movements is an inhibitor to using them successfully. 

I am not advocating changing the kata. If a system's kata has pauses and slow movements, they should be practiced that way. However this practice should be supplemented with solo practice of fast, powerful movements, if one wants to be ableto utilize them effectively in self-defense. 

-Mike Eschenbrenner


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## Grenadier (Oct 16, 2009)

Cayuga Karate said:


> In the Shito Ryu version of Kusanku Dai (Kanku Dai), this serious student shows numerous slow movements and pauses, followed by some sequences done at blistering speeds. I would argue that to make a sequence useful, that it needs to be practiced solo, at high speeds.


 

Thanks for the vid.  That's quite a good performance of Kosokun Dai.  She does, indeed, sharply contrast the fast and slow.  To me, the clean deliverance of the slower techniques make her fast techniques look even faster.  

What especially helps, though, is that she seems to have excellent body positioning, and that it looks like she could get excellent leverage when performing the techniques, even if they were slowly delivered.


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## Tez3 (Oct 16, 2009)

Joab said:


> The closest to that that I have done was in tae kwon do. Yes, I did like it, although I'm not convinced being good at kata has anything at all to do with how well you would do in a serious self defense situation on the streets. But I did like it, I still practice some of it because I enjoy it.


 

You should have a good look at Iain Abernethy's work with kata, I've been on his seminars and the techniques from kata used for SD work very painfully and well!
http://www.iainabernethy.com/

Look at the newsletters and podcasts as well, very informative and useful.


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