# What's the difference between a Sifu and Sijo?



## Joab

Just curious, is it the same title merely spelled differently or does it have more significance than that?.


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## David43515

The ranking system in most Chinese arts is based almost on a family type of relationship._Sifu_ is your teacher. (The characters actually translate as 'teaching father') I believe _Sijo_ is your teacher`s teacher.

It`s been too many years since I trained with native speakers, so I`ve let my Chinese terminology slip. If I was wrong I`m sure someone more up to date will correct me shortly.


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## geezer

My Chinese sifu explained it like this: When you dedicate yourself to a Chinese system and to a particular instructor, you become part of a "kung-fu family". _Sifu_ means your "teacher-father" (your personal instructor), _Si-Gung_ is your "teacher-grandfather" (your teacher's personal instructor or sifu's sifu), _Si-jo_ would be your si-gung's teacher, or your ancestor, forebearer, etc. in the system.

There is another word pronounced "si-fu", but written differently in Chinese, that simply indicates that one has mastery or accomplishment in a skill. In this sense any instuctor can be referred to respectfully as "sifu", even though they are not your personal _sifu_ (teacher-father).

Interestingly, one of my former "kung fu nephews", a student of one of my "si-dais", or younger kung-fu brothers, broke away from our family, declared himself a "Master" (I've even heard one of his associates call him _Dai-Sifu_ or "grandmaster"), and has publicly taken on the title of "Si-Jo" or "kung fu great-grandfather". Well he does resemble Santa Claus a bit, but other than that, I don't get it. Check out my thread titled, "You too can be a WC Master".


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## Xinglu

If we are talking about &#22987;&#31062; (shizu or in cantonese sijo), then it means "primogenitor/founder of a school or trade". And shifu (&#24072;&#29238 is your instructor (as has already been pointed out).


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## Xue Sheng

Unless your talking Korean then it is a type of Poetry 

I shouldn't ask this because I suspect the answer will annoy me but where did you hear or see shizu (sijo) used)

Sifu is your teacher
Shigung is your teacher's teacher


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## geezer

Xue Sheng said:


> I shouldn't ask this because *I suspect the answer will annoy me* but where did you hear or see shizu (sijo) used)



_Annoy?_ Yeah, me too. I also bristle at people calling themselves "Dai-Sifu" or "Grandmaster", like being a "master" isn't honor enough... although in some cases I accept it as a concession to Western commercial expectations. I know one master of a Filipino martial art who has adopted the title "Grandmaster" at the urging of other members of an organization that he associates with. During a private lesson, I asked him if he minded whether I continued to address him by his first name like I had many years before when I trained with him. He said, "Sure. Why not? Just don't do it _in front of the others_ in the group seminars." 

I guess it's just that when every Tom, Dick and Harry call themselves. "master", a real master has to use an inflated title just to try to keep pace with the rank inflation. By contrast, I had to work with the Eskrima group I train with now for _two years just to earn the rank of "student"_--and informally given at that!. After student, comes the rank of "assistant instructor". One guy has acheived that. He has been doing FMA his whole life and has been in this system like 8-10 years now. The headman of the whole system is simply a "maestro" or "instructor", and he goes by his first name in class. If that's not sufficiently impressive, you can always spar with him. Or not. Now that's an honest ranking system.


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## Xue Sheng

geezer said:


> _Annoy?_ Yeah, me too. I also bristle at people calling themselves "Dai-Sifu" or "Grandmaster", like being a "master" isn't honor enough... although in some cases I accept it as a concession to Western commercial expectations. I know one master of a Filipino martial art who has adopted the title "Grandmaster" at the urging of other members of an organization that he associates with. During a private lesson, I asked him if he minded whether I continued to address him by his first name like I had many years before when I trained with him. He said, "Sure. Why not? Just don't do it _in front of the others_ in the group seminars."
> 
> I guess it's just that when every Tom, Dick and Harry call themselves. "master", a real master has to use an inflated title just to try to keep pace with the rank inflation. By contrast, I had to work with the Eskrima group I train with now for _two years just to earn the rank of "student"_--and informally given at that!. After student, comes the rank of "assistant instructor". One guy has acheived that. He has been doing FMA his whole life and has been in this system like 8-10 years now. The headman of the whole system is simply a "maestro" or "instructor", and he goes by his first name in class. If that's not sufficiently impressive, you can always spar with him. Or not. Now that's an honest ranking system.


 
Funny thing about that title (Daisifu) Da shifu in the North on mainland China it is used as sarcasm and an insult.  

One of the Chen family used it (in Mandarin) on my first sifu (both are from China). Translation &#8220;He must be a Grandmaster (Da Shifu) he knows over 100 styles&#8221;


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## Xinglu

I have seem people who have their own unaffiliated schools call themselves (or be titled) "Shizu."  Personally, unless they have created something truly unique, I'd be wary of such a title.  To to contrary I know heads of entire systems that go by just "Shifu." 

Personally, I don't know why anyone would want to be anything more then a shifu.


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## Joab

Xue Sheng said:


> Unless your talking Korean then it is a type of Poetry
> 
> I shouldn't ask this because I suspect the answer will annoy me but where did you hear or see shizu (sijo) used)
> 
> I was looking up my old Sifu in Wing Chun and found he now calls himself a "Sijo". It is likely because he now has a number of instructors under him and there have been other schools formed with his specific type of
> Wing Chun he calls "Tsun Jo Wing Chun Kung Fu" I tried to email him regarding the new title, but the email was bounced back to me as undeliverable.
> 
> 
> Sifu is your teacher
> Shigung is your teacher's teacher


 
Thanks for your response.


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## profesormental

Greetings.

In my experience, when titles as this are adopted in ignorance of what they mean and how they are used by the culture where it comes from, it makes me doubt the level of skill and knowledge that they have...

since they didn't even know about the little tid bit of the title thing.

When they ask me to call them with some title, I do it hesitantly and it leaves a bad taste, yet if I respect them, I'll call them Maestro (master; teacher).

Personally, I'm moving away from the Chinese titles... at most I'm called Si Fu, or profesor or maestro. Here, school teachers are called maestro. University teachers are called profesor.

Some in the school call me Johnny Market. Go figure.

In the end, the skill and respect is still there, no matter the title. In my view, the titles are ways for you to show respect and esteem to others that deserve it.

To me, being considered a teacher is quite big. No matter how big and/or pompous the title, that is what you are.

Juan Mercado


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## Xue Sheng

Joab said:


> I was looking up my old Sifu in Wing Chun and found he now calls himself a "Sijo". It is likely because he now has a number of instructors under him and there have been other schools formed with his specific type of
> Wing Chun he calls "Tsun Jo Wing Chun Kung Fu" I tried to email him regarding the new title, but the email was bounced back to me as undeliverable.
> 
> Thanks for your response.


 
Yup, I was right, the answer did annoy me. Just another example of a guy giving himself a title because he thinks it is "better" than Sifu and proving that he has absolutely no understanding what-so-ever of the language and culture.

In CMA circles the title of "Sifu" if in fact one is a real Sifu is a pretty big deal and a rather high level title.

Just a note; My Taijiquan Sifu who has been at Taijiquan for over 50 years who was trained in and from China goes by his first name or Sifu. My Sanda Sifu who has a been at Sanda for over 30 years who is from and trained in China goes by his first name and my Wing Chun Sifu who has been at Wing Chun for over 20 years and is a student of Ip Ching goes by his first name or Sifu, Hell man Chen Zhenglei goes by Chen Sifu. 

Sijo


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## KamonGuy2

I agree with most of the posts here. It is nice to keep traditional names (a lot of other styles such as karate do it, and it reinforces discipline)

The genius of words such as Sifu is that they mean nothing more than a fatherly figure or teacher. Whereas I know of some styles, the teacher is actually called something like 'great one' in the native language. That to me seems a bit forced

It also helps distinguish who a person is talking to in class. My masters first name is Kevin and therefore talking to another student about 'Kevin' would make it hard to identify who I was actualy referring to!

In Kamon, the instructors used to be called Sihing and then Kevin Chan would be called Sifu. I like that system as it set Kevin chan apart from the other instructors

At the end of the day, every system is different and will have different interpretations of structure within an organisation

Some schools have belts and sashes whilst others dont bother with that


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## Xinglu

Kamon Guy said:


> In Kamon, the instructors used to be called Sihing and then Kevin Chan would be called Sifu. I like that system as it set Kevin chan apart from the other instructors
> 
> Some schools have belts and sashes whilst others dont bother with that



This is how we do it in Xingyiquan.  You are either have Shifu's blessing to teach, or you do not.  If you are still training with him, at best you are shixiong (sihing), and have responsibilities of helping out with the instruction of jr students or filling in if he needs to be absent for a class.  However, we regard anyone with more experiance then us as our shixiong, so it can be confusing to an outsider.  Once you jump in it is easy to get used to though.

If a Shixiong moves away, often they have his blessing to teach, and they become Shifu to their own school.  For instance we had a guy who had trained for 17 years with my Shifu before his job took him upstate.  Now he has his own school and we go there with our shifu every couple of years to train with them. In most arts he would have been a "shifu" long before he actually was.  But, there can only be one shifu per-school and so long as there is good training, no one really cares about titles.


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## mook jong man

I don't care what they call me.
Just don't call me late for dinner.


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## geezer

In our NVTO organization, a Sifu is a fully qualified instructor (tested to at least 2nd degree technically) who must_ also_ have experience teaching under the tutelage of his own sifu until he has overseen the advancement of at least two students all the way up to first degree level. Then he/she may be fully authorized to open their own school as a Sifu. It seems like a very long process. But you can keep advancing in skill without choosing to become a sifu on your own. At least this method does help insure that those with the title of sifu have proven themselves as teachers as well as fighters. There is a big difference. I'm currently teaching again as a sifu, primarily to help my si-Juk, or kung fu nephew, gain this_ teaching_ experience so he may become a sifu. But strictly in terms of fighting skill, he has already passed me! 

...But then again, I dropped out for about 16 years...and he is bigger, stronger and 20 years younger than I am. Give me a few more years to get it back together. Maybe when I'm 60 I'll kick his butt again! Hey I'm serious. Never give up, never say die!

Anyway, regarding titles, someone can call you Sifu, Sensei, Sobum, Guro,  even Grandmaster, or just by your first name. Whatever words come out, you can tell if there's respect or not.


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## blindsage

Joab said:


> I was looking up my old Sifu in Wing Chun and found he now calls himself a "Sijo". It is likely because he now has a number of instructors under him and there have been other schools formed with his specific type of
> Wing Chun he calls "Tsun Jo Wing Chun Kung Fu" I tried to email him regarding the new title, but the email was bounced back to me as undeliverable.


That's probably because your old teacher was orginally a student of (and teacher under) James DeMiles, who founded his own style Wing Chun Do, and uses the title of Sijo (he was an early student of Bruce Lee, but did not learn traditional Wing Chun).  When your teacher decided to branch away from James DeMiles and do his own thing, he founded his own style, Tsun Jo Wing Chun, and took the title of Sijo.


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## Joab

blindsage said:


> That's probably because your old teacher was orginally a student of (and teacher under) James DeMiles, who founded his own style Wing Chun Do, and uses the title of Sijo (he was an early student of Bruce Lee, but did not learn traditional Wing Chun). When your teacher decided to branch away from James DeMiles and do his own thing, he founded his own style, Tsun Jo Wing Chun, and took the title of Sijo.


 
And it seems to me he has every right to do that since it is his own style of Wing Chun and he has instructors under him in his own style. The man is truly an amazingly gifted practitioner of Wing Chun and a great guy as well and an excellent teacher. I got a lot out of his teaching, I wish I still lived in Seattle so I could train in his system.


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## blindsage

I was challenging your instructor.  I was giving you the contextual information you could understand the answer to your question better.


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## Xinglu

blindsage said:


> I *wasn't* challenging your instructor.  I was giving you the contextual information you could understand the answer to your question better.



Fixed that for you, didn't want this to heat up!


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## blindsage

Whoops!  Thanks.


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## Joab

I know you weren't blindsage, others were.  I originally asked the question because I didn't know what the title "Sijo" meant, now that I do I find no reason why he can't call himself a Sijo.


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## Xue Sheng

It doesn't matter if he calls himself Lord Grand High Master Sigung King of Wing Chun, He can call himself what he wants. 

Sijo does seem a bit silly to me but that's me and I doubt that much matters


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## Xinglu

Joab said:


> I know you weren't blindsage, others were.  I originally asked the question because I didn't know what the title "Sijo" meant, now that I do I find no reason why he can't call himself a Sijo.




I read through this whole thing again, and I don't see where anyone was challenging him.

I see lots of "I don't get the titles thing," and how in China you just don't see it very much.

I also see a general, "I'm wary of such titles because they are abused outside of China" vibe.

But I don't see anyone challenging your instructor.  In fact, if he has created something TRUELY unique, then I don't think anyone would think twice about it.  

Quite frankly, I don't care.  He could call himself Jesus the returned or the supreme buddha for all it matters to me.  If he taught good stuff I would train, if not, I wouldn't.  Titles mean nothing to me.

To quote Machiavelli, "It is not titles that honor men, but men that honor titles."


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## KamonGuy2

Titles can often get very confusing. My brother, for instance, is a doctor of biochemistry, and yet people assume he is a medical doctor!!

I know a certain wing chunner (or should I say wing tsunner..) has a 'Doctor' in front of his name and it is often used to draw gullible students in who assume that having a pHd means a damn....

It is nice to have tradition, but people shouldnt obsess too much with terminology. Im sure Ip Man didnt kick students out of his dojo if they forgot a name of a move or what to call him etc

Just enjoy your training!


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## geezer

Kamon Guy said:


> ... who assume that having a pHd means a damn....


 
Well I think having a PhD relevant to your discipline, biochemistry for example, means quite a bit. On the other hand, buying a PhD certificate from a diploma mill just to try and impress your martial arts students is another thing all together. But at least you didn't have to waste a whole day of training time having to drive such a person all around town to rent phony academic robes from a costume shop for a photo shoot... oh _nevermind._ Besides, Kamon, I have absolutely _no idea_ who you are talking about!


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## Vajramusti

geezer said:


> Well I think having a PhD relevant to your discipline, biochemistry for example, means quite a bit. On the other hand, buying a PhD certificate from a diploma mill just to try and impress your martial arts students is another thing all together. But at least you didn't have to waste a whole day of training time having to drive such a person all around town to rent phony academic robes from a costume shop for a photo shoot... oh _nevermind._ Besides, Kamon, I have absolutely _no idea_ who you are talking about!


------------------------------------------------
An earned Ph.D. from a Ph.D granting department in a recognized field at a a research university is quite different from honorary degrees, diploma mill degrees and other marketing enhancers,... but martial arts acheivements should rest on their own merits.


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## vankuen

Well said Joy.  I believe most in China simply use Sifu from what I've been told.

...

Dr GGM can do whatever he wants I suppose, but you have to admit that if not for him some places wouldn't have ANY wc available


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## Vajramusti

I may not have followed the thread carefully enough- I had no specific person in mind.


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## vankuen

Oh no worries...that last bit after the periods was directed towards the mass of the thread participants.  They've been hinting at a particular someone.


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## Xue Sheng

vankuen said:


> Well said Joy. I believe most in China simply use Sifu from what I've been told.


 
Yup. 

That is unless they are trying to sell it to Westerners then you might see (or hear) Grandmaster popup (Western Languages Only) but you will not hear it said in the dialect of the region :uhohh: another CMAist might hear

There is a sifu in Beijing that has (or had) a website that was in both Chinese and English. The Chinese site said he was a sifu the English site said he was a Grandmaster


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## geezer

vankuen said:


> Oh no worries...that last bit after the periods was directed towards the mass of the thread participants. They've been *hinting at a particular someone*.


 
Sorry about all that, it's off-topic anyway. Besides the "someone" I was thinking of is, in fact _highly_ skilled, and he has tremendous depth in his understanding of the art. It is the other stuff that I was referring to. I believe your own teacher's si-gung, Tam was after all, a follower of that same "someone" for many years.


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## KamonGuy2

geezer said:


> Well I think having a PhD relevant to your discipline, biochemistry for example, means quite a bit. On the other hand, buying a PhD certificate from a diploma mill just to try and impress your martial arts students is another thing all together. But at least you didn't have to waste a whole day of training time having to drive such a person all around town to rent phony academic robes from a costume shop for a photo shoot... oh _nevermind._ Besides, Kamon, I have absolutely _no idea_ who you are talking about!


 
Oh yeah I wasnt saying that a pHD in general is worthless!! Certainly if you are studying something like biochemistry then a pHD is useful. However, my headmaster at school was a doctor of philosophy and people used to think he was great just because he had a pHD after his name!! 

Certain martial artists have things after their names which have no relevance to the art they teach!! 

One individual I always see in Combat magazine has something like 15 black belts and you kind of wonder what kind of styles they must be for someone to be able to get that many (especially as he is fairly young as well). Anyway, thats my rant over for the day....


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