# Personal art , how much you have changed your wck?



## zuti car (Apr 26, 2015)

Often people talk about adjusting wck to personal needs and preferences of the practitioner . More often it is not easy to see where these changes are made and people from particular style will do things visually in very similar manner . My question is to what level is practical to make changes and what must be preserved ? Personally I have changed almost everything . All things that cannot be done under pressure I simply took out ( like "techniques " in a way that they were done in TWC and WT , multiple steps drills , chi sao without full power , endless combination in chi sao in a manner "if you do this , i will do that , then you can do this and i will recover like this...." ) I put accent in my training on power development , reflexes , sparring , footwork (which I also changed to my own needs and physical capability) , distance , timing . Drills , chi sao , are not so important , techniques I show sometimes just to present a possible answer to some situation . What I didn't change is structure , power generation and basic concepts of the art .


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## Vajramusti (Apr 26, 2015)

zuti car said:


> Often people talk about adjusting wck to personal needs and preferences of the practitioner . More often it is not easy to see where these changes are made and people from particular style will do things visually in very similar manner . My question is to what level is practical to make changes and what must be preserved ? Personally I have changed almost everything . All things that cannot be done under pressure I simply took out ( like "techniques " in a way that they were done in TWC and WT , multiple steps drills , chi sao without full power , endless combination in chi sao in a manner "if you do this , i will do that , then you can do this and i will recover like this...." ) I put accent in my training on power development , reflexes , sparring , footwork (which I also changed to my own needs and physical capability) , distance , timing . Drills , chi sao , are not so important , techniques I show sometimes just to present a possible answer to some situation . What I didn't change is structure , power generation and basic concepts of the art .


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## geezer (Apr 27, 2015)

zuti car said:


> Often people talk about adjusting wck to personal needs and preferences of the practitioner . More often it is not easy to see where these changes are made and people from particular style will do things visually in very similar manner . My question is to what level is practical to make changes and what must be preserved ? Personally I have changed almost everything . All things that cannot be done under pressure I simply took out ( like "techniques " in a way that they were done in TWC and WT , multiple steps drills , chi sao without full power , endless combination in chi sao in a manner "if you do this , i will do that , then you can do this and i will recover like this...." ) I put accent in my training on power development , reflexes , sparring , footwork (which I also changed to my own needs and physical capability) , distance , timing . Drills , chi sao , are not so important , techniques I show sometimes just to present a possible answer to some situation . What I didn't change is structure , power generation and basic concepts of the art .


 
So you changed the training methods and emphasis, but didn't change _the art_. Sounds OK to me.


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## zuti car (Apr 27, 2015)

geezer said:


> So you changed the training methods and emphasis, but didn't change _the art_. Sounds OK to me.


Exactly , from the very beginning I realized that something is wrong with WCK I was practicing . I started with WT , and there we did a lot of drills and thous sections , some 'techniques" , but non of that could be applied in sparring . Later I switched to TWC , so called original , but things there were even worse ., only "techniques" and a lot of brainwashing , politics , gossip ... I have practiced hard but non of the things I have done had any sense . I have observed all people who taught wck in my country , most of them never fought , even in the competitions , and thous who had , they never used wck in their sparring or sports fights , they used boxing and kick boxing.   I got lucky and met David Cheung ( William's younger brother ) who explained in detail basic concepts of the art and encouraged me to find my own way . He literary said " do not trust anyone , trust your self , if it works for you , keep it , if not , just forget it " . Since that time I have worked with a couple of teachers from different style (and lineages) , some were good fighters, some had great understanding of the art  , but all of them suffered from fear of change and taught a lot of unnecessary or unrealistic things . Of course , i do understand financial moment and need for a large and extremely detailed curriculum in order to keep students interested for extended period of time. I don't make a living out of wck so i don;t need all these things and i have clear goal of training . What i do not understand are people who pay large amounts of money to be taught completely unrealistic and unnecessary things , I mean it doesn't require IQ  over 200 points to realize that something too complicated or practiced without force , without strength ( usually both) will never work .


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## Vajramusti (Apr 27, 2015)

zuti car said:


> Exactly , from the very beginning I realized that something is wrong with WCK I was practicing . I started with WT , and there we did a lot of drills and thous sections , some 'techniques" , but non of that could be applied in sparring . Later I switched to TWC , so called original , but things there were even worse ., only "techniques" and a lot of brainwashing , politics , gossip ... I have practiced hard but non of the things I have done had any sense . I have observed all people who taught wck in my country , most of them never fought , even in the competitions , and thous who had , they never used wck in their sparring or sports fights , they used boxing and kick boxing.   I got lucky and met David Cheung ( William's younger brother ) who explained in detail basic concepts of the art and encouraged me to find my own way . He literary said " do not trust anyone , trust your self , if it works for you , keep it , if not , just forget it " . Since that time I have worked with a couple of teachers from different style (and lineages) , some were good fighters, some had great understanding of the art  , but all of them suffered from fear of change and taught a lot of unnecessary or unrealistic things . Of course , i do understand financial moment and need for a large and extremely detailed curriculum in order to keep students interested for extended period of time. I don't make a living out of wck so i don;t need all these things and i have clear goal of training . What i do not understand are people who pay large amounts of money to be taught completely unrealistic and unnecessary things , I mean it doesn't require IQ  over 200 points to realize that something too complicated or practiced without force , without strength ( usually both) will never work .


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## Vajramusti (Apr 27, 2015)

We each have our journey.My nature and background is such  that I try to search for the most knowledgeable, experienced  and best teacher(s)
I can find in things that I become interested in and then listen carefully recheck my understandings and practice accurately and then apply
and analyze the applications.

I have not changed the principles of wing chun to the best of my knowledge.. I try not to let ego get in the way in learning. I have paid attention to the corrections by sifu, sigung and knowledgeable si hings.  I figure out test against other styles when I can and I sometimes watch what others do....


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## Eric_H (Apr 27, 2015)

I'm headed the other direction, I find it more rewarding to bend how I typically operate into the restrictive framework of the WC system and find success. My Teacher's attitude is different than many IMO, as he often says (paraphrased) WC isn't a do-whatever-you-like martial art. You either are following the rules of the system or the art can go against you. 

As I've found, It's certainly an upill battle if both the art and your opponent are going against you. That said, I've never trained drills for drilling's sake with him as I found in my Moy Yat training.


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## Marnetmar (Apr 27, 2015)

I dropped WC entirely because Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are the answer to everything.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 27, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> I dropped WC entirely because Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are the answer to everything.



Curious- then why do you choose to be still here?


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## dlcox (Apr 27, 2015)

I stopped practicing others interpretations of Yong Chun principles & concepts to focus on my own interpretations based upon my understanding of them. Has this changed it? No, not fundamentally but it allows me to approach it from a place of experience & understanding. Sometimes it leads to the same place, confirming what was taught, other times it brings awareness not before realized & sometimes it ends in dismal failure. This process has allowed me to see & comprehend without having to take someone else's word for it, especially when applied in a scenario that those whom imparted the principle or concept where never exposed to.


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## zuti car (Apr 27, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> I dropped WC entirely because Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are the answer to everything.


I was close to do that at one point ( and politics was involved ,so I wanted to be as far from that as I can) but I realized there is nothing wrong with an art , just the focus of training is wrong and people who talk trash about other people in wck are simply idiots , again nothing wrong with wck as an art. There are hundreds of drills in wck , and only purpose of thous drills is to be done for a long time and keep people occupied and also to give people a feeling they achieving something , and people like when they can do complicated drills fast , it looks good . But these drills do not develop any attributes necessary for fighting . Same goes with chi sao , great number of school completely replaces sparring with chi sao . Even more , they got whole idea of being relaxed wrong so they do chi sao without  strength , without force , and they are training "reflexes and searching the gaps in opponent's defense". They become very good at what they do but all that skill simply crash after first received punch . I believe , there is not other way to learn how fight besides actual fighting . Strength , speed , reflexes , stamina .... all the attributes necessary for fighting can be developed separately to some point , but without realistic training where all these things can be put together practitioner simply cannot learn how to fight .


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## zuti car (Apr 27, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> I try to search for the most knowledgeable, experienced  and best teacher(s)


I have find out that this can be a tricky part . I have met very knowledgeable , they know their systems extremely well , they could explain things to the smallest detail ,by standard of knowledge , these people are true masters of the art. The problem is , they have wrong basic starting point , they base their art, knowledge and skill on believe , not on experiment , they believe in original styles, their teacher's superiority , that kind of things . Not all knowledge is useful . I like to think about my self as a practical person , I do not take anything for granted , I try , I check and I question everything . Things must pass the test of common sense , logic and experiment or I will just forget it .


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## Marnetmar (Apr 27, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> Curious- then why do you choose to be still here?


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## Callen (Apr 29, 2015)

This is a topic that most practitioners should think about at some point on their journey. Ultimately, Wing Chun is personal. The way you express what you have learned, determines the quality of your success and satisfaction.

A practitioner of any lineage can gain knowledge and understanding from exploring the different interpretations of Wing Chun. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to change or alter your art, just be open to learning... Always be open to learning. The influences of culture, language, body mechanics and structural theory, all play a part in how the system of Wing Chun is understood. I have exchanged with different practitioners and Sifus from several lineages and have still preserved my art. I learned and absorbed something unique from all of them, and in return they also learned from me. That's the beauty of Wing Chun. There's always room for growth.


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## Kwan Sau (May 2, 2015)

to the best of my knowledge, I've retained the forms as I was taught them. However, drills, training methodologies, etc I will alter or revise if / as needed for the betterment of particular students. I will also write down certain forms/drills/exercises in my personal journal; but at times I've "modernized" certain power training routines with more updated equipment...but this was only after years of doing the 'old school' methods myself.
Principles, they are codified and set in stone for a reason IMHO.
Zuti is on a roll these days...another great topic.


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