# Want to Lift Weights



## Lisa

So in the spirit of the new year, my hubby and I have decided to start lifting weights on a regular basis and are contemplating either investing in a machine or free weights.  We have a few free weights, just not enough.

Would you recommend BowFlex (I am a little leary of this one) or an actual weight machine with the pulleys or free weights?  why or why not? 

Much Thanks!


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## Ceicei

Lisa said:
			
		

> So in the spirit of the new year, my hubby and I have decided to start lifting weights on a regular basis and are contemplating either investing in a machine or free weights. We have a few free weights, just not enough.
> 
> Would you recommend BowFlex (I am a little leary of this one) or an actual weight machine with the pulleys or free weights? why or why not?
> 
> Much Thanks!



What are your goals with the weights?  Different types of weights do better for certain purposes.  If you explain what your goals are, then perhaps we might be able to narrow down to whether a machine or free weights would serve your needs better.

- Ceicei


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## Lisa

Ceicei said:
			
		

> What are your goals with the weights?  Different types of weights do better for certain purposes.  If you explain what your goals are, then perhaps we might be able to narrow down to whether a machine or free weights would serve your needs better.
> 
> - Ceicei



Oops!  I knew I was missing something 

My goals are to increase my strength and I think my hubby wants to add some bulk.  Now that I am thinking of shooting  more air rifle competitions I would like to strengthen my muscles to provide the stamina needed for the matches.  Tone would be nice too


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## Jonathan Randall

Lisa said:
			
		

> Oops! I knew I was missing something
> 
> My goals are to increase my strength and I think my hubby wants to add some bulk. Now that I am thinking of shooting more air rifle competitions I would like to strengthen my muscles to provide the stamina needed for the matches. Tone would be nice too


 
For bulk, he will need some HEAVY free weights - *and a STRONG partner standing over him, ready to take the weights, if he gets stalled in a repetition, for SAFETY.* For endurance and toning, as you mentioned for yourself, smaller weights with many repetitions are in order, IMO. If you have a VCR, see if you can get something like Gilad's "Arms of Steel" (Men of Steel series, great but now out of print) used from Amazon.com. This is a great barbell workout that will increase strength (moderately), tone quite a bit and substantially, in my experience, increase endurance. I bet you could get it for less than $10.00 VHS used and the weights he uses are very inexpensive.

Best of luck; sounds like a great New Year's Resolution. I don't know about the machines. I've personally had better luck with free weights because they develop associated parts as well and help with coordination more, IMO.


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## Kenpobldr

Lisa said:
			
		

> So in the spirit of the new year, my hubby and I have decided to start lifting weights on a regular basis and are contemplating either investing in a machine or free weights. We have a few free weights, just not enough.
> 
> Would you recommend BowFlex (I am a little leary of this one) or an actual weight machine with the pulleys or free weights? why or why not?
> 
> Much Thanks!


 
I used to have a dual stack universal gym that was good but it took up to much room and was somewhat limited in its use. I tried to sell that to purchase a BowFlex but I could find no buyers and finally gave the universal gym away.

I now have had the BowFlex for about three years and I love it. I get a better workout with more resistance and there are much more workout options than my old universal gym. Its safer when working out alone and you can purchase heaver rods to add more weight and resistance to your workout. For me I also gained more floor space when the BowFlex is folded up to practice Martial Arts. Mine is the older BowFlex XTL and I have had no problems with this unit. There were some recalls for some minor parts but the company does stand behind its product and they were quick to send the parts. I still on occasion use my free weights to do some arm curls but most of the time I use the BowFlex.

Purchased new they can be expensive but sometimes you can purchase them cheaper thru the want ads or EBAY and the do sell quickly. However you won't have any warranty. Assembly will take about three hours for the BowFlex, but it took two days to assemble the dual stack universal gym and another two days to take it apart when I gave it away.


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## shesulsa

I posted but my post got lost - dunno why.

Lisa, your husband will need progressive heavy weights in fewer reps and fewer sets. It is imperative that he rest between sets for one full minute for maximum results and muscle recovery.  It's always a good idea to start with large muscle groups.

For toning, strength and weight loss, you will need lighter weights, more reps and more sets.  You will benefit more and have more stable joints because you can vary the angle and get a more complete workout when you're training with lighter weights and more reps (a la Jack LaLane).

Machines lend themselves to aiding your body with its balance and you don't really have to use the smaller muscles and side striations of your muscles for balance of the load. Free weights force you to use these things TO balance and control your load.  That is essentially the philosophy as I understand it.

Progressive resistance machines like Bowflex contradict how your muscles are designed to work. The majority of the resistance is met at the end of the flex.  This CAN induce a strain injury.

The best thing I've seen for home use is the total gym. It operates on a Pilates based philosophy and is pretty easy to use.  That and a few variations on light hand-held weights for you would probably do the trick you're looking for.

I SERIOUSLY recommend getting an eval and training plan from a pro. If you guys join a gym in the area, usually most of them (at least in the states) include one free eval, consult and workout session with a personal trainer.  Talk to a nutritionist about appropriate sports nutrition that is food-based, unless you really WANT to drink those shakes.  I avoid creatine (you're a nurse, you know why) and protein shakes and work on eating right for weight-lifting fitness when I'm lifting.

Post your progress when you can.


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## jfarnsworth

I love to lift weights. I just got done with a lovely chest/tricep session about 30 minutes ago. It feels good after a 2 week lay off period. Lisa, just remember everyone has a different pace. Look at your goals at what you want to accomplish, listen to your body and go from there. Try looking into some fitness forums to get more ideas.
:asian:


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## Shirt Ripper

First, good decision.  Second, machines are dangerous...and crap.  Pardon my bluntness.

Your best bet is to buy a set of weights.  Then lift them.  There is obviously a bit more to it than that but most people jump in with all types of mumbo-jumbo that they read in Muscle and Fitness, get confused, frustrated and oft times pissed and quit.  Through your level headedness in your postings here I can see this not likely not you but that is the fate of the many.

So...get a set of weights (and if you must, a bench) and start in on basic multi joint exercises and try to do most standing.  This is hard with a Bowflex because it a stupid machine.

Those universal units should be outlawed.


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## Kenpobldr

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> First, good decision. Second, machines are dangerous...and crap. Pardon my bluntness.
> 
> Your best bet is to buy a set of weights. Then lift them. There is obviously a bit more to it than that but most people jump in with all types of mumbo-jumbo that they read in Muscle and Fitness, get confused, frustrated and oft times pissed and quit. Through your level headedness in your postings here I can see this not likely not you but that is the fate of the many.
> 
> So...get a set of weights (and if you must, a bench) and start in on basic multi joint exercises and try to do most standing. This is hard with a Bowflex because it a stupid machine.
> 
> Those universal units should be outlawed.


 
Everyone is entitled to ther own opinion and I would not recomend a BowFlex for serious bodybuilding, but have you ever tried using one. What is your reasoning for calling it a "stupid machine."

My Bowflex has worked for me in keeping myself in shape and I have not experiened any injuries from it.


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## hemi

Me personally I have had free weights, with a bench. I have had a few machines with all the cables and pulleys and a stack of weights. I even had a machine that used cables and pulleys and no weight stack. For me NONE of the others hold a candle to my Bow flex. I know a lot of the hard core lifters will jump up and post that you have to use free weights if you want to get big. Here are a few issues I have with using them. One, to do the exercises that will make some one put on bulk you need a spotter. Amount of space the weight stack, bar and bench will take up. You could buy a smith machine for a built in spotter but that will take up as much room as a ¾ ton truck. With my Bow flex I can do 65 exercises (I only do about 15) the Bow flex dont take up much room. It was easy to put together and well made. And best of all they keep their resale value. 

Also on the issue of fee weights are the only way to get big. If you use resistance on any kind to work the muscles to fatigue would that not accomplish causing the body to respond by releasing growth hormone and causing the desired affect? Just my .02


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## jfarnsworth

shesulsa said:
			
		

> ... I avoid creatine (you're a nurse, you know why) and protein shakes and work on eating right for weight-lifting fitness when I'm lifting..


 
Why is that if I may ask? :asian:


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## Kenpobldr

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I posted but my post got lost - dunno why.
> 
> Lisa, your husband will need progressive heavy weights in fewer reps and fewer sets. It is imperative that he rest between sets for one full minute for maximum results and muscle recovery. It's always a good idea to start with large muscle groups.
> 
> For toning, strength and weight loss, you will need lighter weights, more reps and more sets. You will benefit more and have more stable joints because you can vary the angle and get a more complete workout when you're training with lighter weights and more reps (a la Jack LaLane).
> 
> Machines lend themselves to aiding your body with its balance and you don't really have to use the smaller muscles and side striations of your muscles for balance of the load. Free weights force you to use these things TO balance and control your load. That is essentially the philosophy as I understand it.
> 
> Progressive resistance machines like Bowflex contradict how your muscles are designed to work. The majority of the resistance is met at the end of the flex. This CAN induce a strain injury.
> 
> The best thing I've seen for home use is the total gym. It operates on a Pilates based philosophy and is pretty easy to use. That and a few variations on light hand-held weights for you would probably do the trick you're looking for.
> 
> I SERIOUSLY recommend getting an eval and training plan from a pro. If you guys join a gym in the area, usually most of them (at least in the states) include one free eval, consult and workout session with a personal trainer. Talk to a nutritionist about appropriate sports nutrition that is food-based, unless you really WANT to drink those shakes. I avoid creatine (you're a nurse, you know why) and protein shakes and work on eating right for weight-lifting fitness when I'm lifting.
> 
> Post your progress when you can.


 
The BowFlex has constant resistance at the begining and end of each rep. It does not have not progressive resistance that may cause an injury.

However do not believe what Bowflex says about the 20 minute workout. Usually my workouts are an hour and a half. 

You are correct in recomending talking to a Nutritionist, that should be one of the first steps. No matter how much you work out beer, pizza and fast food will negate any efforts.


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## Shirt Ripper

Kenpobldr said:
			
		

> Everyone is entitled to ther own opinion and I would not recomend a BowFlex for serious bodybuilding, but have you ever tried using one. What is your reasoning for calling it a "stupid machine."
> 
> My Bowflex has worked for me in keeping myself in shape and I have not experiened any injuries from it.


 
I am speaking purely from an athletic stand point.  I can understand and appreciate one's interest in "staying in shape" or "looking good" but as most here are martial artists by trade, or at least hobby, I believe any supplemental training (i.e. resistance training) should take said interest into account first and foremost.  As this activity is often times athletic based the body needs certain preperation and at some point may require increase in capacity.  This does not (or should not) include bodybuilding as I know it.  There should be a certain amount of functionality in this process.  On that basis I beleive the bowflex (and comparable products) to be frivolous.  In order to funcionally train the body in preparation for the typical athletic activity including the majority of the martial arts wherein additional resistance training may be desirable one needs to consider the relevance of the exercise selection.  Simply put: Standing and pressing a barbell/dumbbell/stone/sandbag or any other free standing object will be extensively more effective than lying down and pressing against controlled resistance.  It all comes down to whether or not what one is doing is consistant with the "real world" or at least the challenges they are training to meet.

Perhaps I was too vague when saying "stupid machine."  It is good to hear you have had success and are continuing to be healthy and progressive.


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## Shirt Ripper

2004hemi said:
			
		

> Me personally I have had free weights, with a bench. I have had a few machines with all the cables and pulleys and a stack of weights. I even had a machine that used cables and pulleys and no weight stack. For me NONE of the others hold a candle to my Bow flex. I know a lot of the hard core lifters will jump up and post that you have to use free weights if you want to get big. Here are a few issues I have with using them. One, to do the exercises that will make some one put on bulk you need a spotter. Amount of space the weight stack, bar and bench will take up. You could buy a smith machine for a built in spotter but that will take up as much room as a ¾ ton truck. With my Bow flex I can do 65 exercises (I only do about 15) the Bow flex dont take up much room. It was easy to put together and well made. And best of all they keep their resale value.
> 
> Also on the issue of fee weights are the only way to get big. If you use resistance on any kind to work the muscles to fatigue would that not accomplish causing the body to respond by releasing growth hormone and causing the desired affect? Just my .02


What is this interest in being big?  I would think this would have a negative impact on your M.A. training?

You are correct on "resistance being resistance" to an extent but as I addressed above, the functionality of certain machine set-ups (as well as "getting big") is questionable.  I am totally of the mind set of "to each his/her own" but have you ever pulled off a power clean or overhead squat on a bowflex?

I am beginning to like this thread.


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## Andrew Green

Free weights are pretty much always a better bet.

On a machine your motion is locked into the proper path, it does the stabalization for you.  Meaning all the muslces that normally stabalize the bigger muscles go unused.  So after making progress on the machine you find yourself tearing supporting muscles when you try to use that new strength elsewhere because they have been doing nothing and got left behind.


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## Shirt Ripper

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> On a machine your motion is locked into the proper path...


 
How about: Locked in _a_ path.  Not always the _proper_ path.  This is one of my big "beefs" with the use of machines instead of "free weights."  It is true that one must have a better understanding of exercises when working with unsupported weight to avoid injury.  Because the body is not forced into a certain path of motion attention must be paid to technique in order to efficiently benefit from the movement being practiced.

But, to put it plainly; I would rather have my athletes use incorrect mechanics (save for obvious safety threats) than _forced_ mechanics, especially when these are often incorrect regardless.


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## Lisa

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Why is that if I may ask? :asian:



Creatine has been said to cause decrease in urine output and possible kidney damage. 

Here is a link to some information on Creatine use, hope this helps. 

http://yalenewhavenhealth.org/library/healthguide/en-us/drugguide/topic.asp?hwid=d04417a1


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## shesulsa

shesulsa said:
			
		

> ... I avoid creatine (you're a nurse, you know why) and protein shakes and work on eating right for weight-lifting fitness when I'm lifting..





			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> Why is that if I may ask? :asian:



I was told by my doctor that creatine puts fluid into the muscle fibers which can keep your organs from being properly hydrated which can lead to hypertension and kidney malfunction.

So I don't do it.

Protein shakes only ever gave me indigestion, bloated me up and lowered my calcium levels.

So I don't do that either.


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## Lisa

So basically what a few of you are saying is that free weights allow you to use the muscle properly or the whole muscle as opposed to just down one path.

I remember once doing a flooring project and I thought my legs were pretty strong from all the squats etc. that I did in MA class.  For the next few days, however, my legs hurt, I was using the muscles differently for the squats obviously and the flooring project stressed the muscles in a different way.  Or am I way off with this?


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## shesulsa

Lisa said:
			
		

> So basically what a few of you are saying is that free weights allow you to use the muscle properly or the whole muscle as opposed to just down one path.
> 
> I remember once doing a flooring project and I thought my legs were pretty strong from all the squats etc. that I did in MA class.  For the next few days, however, my legs hurt, I was using the muscles differently for the squats obviously and the flooring project stressed the muscles in a different way.  Or am I way off with this?


No, you're right on.  Using your whole muscle or using a group differently, you will feel the difference, quite literally.

If you're in great shape for biking, your legs are gonna be sore when you come to martial arts class, etc. etc.


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## Lisa

shesulsa said:
			
		

> No, you're right on.  Using your whole muscle or using a group differently, you will feel the difference, quite literally.
> 
> If you're in great shape for biking, your legs are gonna be sore when you come to martial arts class, etc. etc.



That is what I thought.  I had a friend come to class once, she used to run alot.  She could barely walk for three days cause her legs hurt her so much from all the kicking and squatting she did in our MA class.


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## Andrew Green

shesulsa said:
			
		

> No, you're right on. Using your whole muscle or using a group differently, you will feel the difference, quite literally.
> 
> If you're in great shape for biking, your legs are gonna be sore when you come to martial arts class, etc. etc.



Hence the importance of cross training in any sport, especially at high levels.


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## Sarah

I like the free weights, they are more versatile and you work more muscles than on a machine (use muscles to stabilize), also if you grab a swiss ball you will work your core.

Good luck, lifting weights with a partner can be fun.


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## Lisa

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> ...
> So...get a set of weights (and if you must, a bench) and start in on basic multi joint exercises and try to do most standing. ...



So to work my legs, what do you suggest?  One of the reasons I was looking into on of the machines is to have the ability to work directly on my legs.

and... you said if I must, get a bench.  You don't like working out on one?  why?

Others please chime in if you can answer as well.


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## Sarah

There are plenty of leg workouts you can do with free weights and a swiss ball..which will save you the expense of a machine.


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## jfarnsworth

Lisa said:
			
		

> Creatine has been said to cause decrease in urine output and possible kidney damage..
> 
> http://yalenewhavenhealth.org/library/healthguide/en-us/drugguide/topic.asp?hwid=d04417a1


Alright. Isn't that why you are supposed to drink plenty 'o water while taking a creatine supplement. I weigh in at a whole whopping 160 and I try to intake at least a minimum of 80oz. of water per day. Generally it's 100 but some days I just can't take in that much water.


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## jfarnsworth

Lisa said:
			
		

> So to work my legs, what do you suggest? One of the reasons I was looking into on of the machines is to have the ability to work directly on my legs.


There's a slew of leg exercises out there to do. Maybe try to start with dumbbell squats and lunges (stationary or walking). Stiff leg deadlifts works the hams well. If you have a barbell try to squat with that as well. 

As far as a bench goes. Well everyone and their brothers cousin wants to know how much someone can bench. I prefer to do my lifts with dumbbell's first then either incline or decline barbell press as the last exercise of my session.


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## Lisa

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Alright. Isn't that why you are supposed to drink plenty 'o water while taking a creatine supplement. I weigh in at a whole whopping 160 and I try to intake at least a minimum of 80oz. of water per day. Generally it's 100 but some days I just can't take in that much water.



Yup that is the reason.  Everything I have read says that one of the biggest risks is that there are no long term studies done.  So all the effects might not be known yet.  They do know that it can be attributed to gastrointestinal upset, dehydration, 

I read that you should be consuming 1-2 ounces of water per kilogram of weight so... you weighing in at 160 pounds divided by 2.2 = 72 to 73 ounces of water per day.  Seems you are right on target 

here is another link where I got the formula for water consumption 

http://www.creatinemonohydrate.net/creatine_side_effects.html#Creatine Information 11


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## Hannya

I have a bowflex, and I recommend it for people trying to tone up and put on some muscle. If you go at it seriously, the results will be quick but you will max it out within a couple months (mine goes up to 300lbs stock). I made the mistake of getting one to bulk up, and I feel I've already reached a ceiling and am being blocked by the machine. There are certain limitations using machines, but its the best option if you dont have a workout partner imo.

 My advice, pick one of the machines and pick up some free weights to supplement your workout for those trying to bulk, that way you can switch it up. Just make sure you get a healthy diet going, thats key to getting results.


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## arnisador

Free weights.

Have you considered joining a gym, even for just a few months? That would give you a mix of free weights and machines to try out, plus some professional pointers.


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## Shirt Ripper

Lisa said:
			
		

> So to work my legs, what do you suggest?  One of the reasons I was looking into on of the machines is to have the ability to work directly on my legs.
> 
> and... you said if I must, get a bench.  You don't like working out on one?  why?
> 
> Others please chime in if you can answer as well.



All types of squatting movement: Back, front, overhead!, single leg, pistols, box, etc.  Deadlifts (and it's variations), olympic movements would count here.

I am not a huge proponent of the bench press for non  powerlifters or non bodybuilders.  I think there is better way to train the upper body.  But if you are partial to the movement, enjoy it and find it helps you, by all means...it is a great exercise in many repects.

As far as working you legs directly on a machine, are talking about curls and extensions?  If so, those movement have little relevance to the training of an athelete barring an obvious weakness in on muscles group (i.e. the hamstrings) but even then one would be better off using one of the "Real" movements (i.e. stiff legged deadlift).  The body is a complex system, correct?  Obviously, we all should be aware of that.  So why not train it that way?  Isolation exercises have their place but one can find greater success with multi-joint movements.

I'm really liking this thread.


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## Lisa

I am glad you are enjoying the thread Shirtripper. 

I would also like to thank everyone for their input, it has been great so far. 

I really have no desire to bench press so getting a bench would if my hubby wanted one then for me.  What would be the minimum amount of equipment to start out with.  Right now our weights are very few.  

As a beginner, what would you all suggest I do to start.  Keep in mind I have arthritis in my knees.  I figure, like any exercise, I will start slow and work my way upwards.  How many sets and how many reps per set would be a good start.  Remember also I have to be able to work, lol.  I kinda need to lift my arms. 

Also could someone either post pics or explain the different exercises.  I think it would be good to have them here as reference for others as well as myself as a reference.

Thanks


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## green meanie

Lisa said:
			
		

> What would be the minimum amount of equipment to start out with. Right now our weights are very few.
> 
> As a beginner, what would you all suggest I do to start. Thanks


 
If I were you, I'd just start out with a couple sets of dumbells. They don't require a lot of weight to do what you'd want to do with them and there's a lot of options available since can do just about anything you can think of with them.


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## arnisador

You can do a lot with dumbbells.

I've never seen someone come out against the bench press. What's the argument? Start another trehad if appropriate.


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## Sarah

Lisa said:
			
		

> As a beginner, what would you all suggest I do to start. Keep in mind I have arthritis in my knees. I figure, like any exercise, I will start slow and work my way upwards. How many sets and how many reps per set would be a good start. Remember also I have to be able to work, lol. I kinda need to lift my arms.


 
Make sure you strap that knee !!


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## Sarah

As mentioned, I also think it would be a good investment to join a gym for a short time and get some one on one, so that you will learn correct movement. This way you know your effort is going into the right areas and not being wasted by bad form.

We do some great butt workouts in class which you may not even need weights for:

On all fours lift up one knee (as if a dog peeing on a tree), keep doing this and vary it by straightening out the leg....doing little circles forward, then little circles back, etc.  You can also rest a dumbbell on you thigh for more resistance.   Trust me you will have a sore butt the next day 

Similar things for inner and outer thigh, lay on your side, rest dumbbell on top of you leg and lift top leg, can do the little circles on this one as well, just keep them small and controlled. For the inner thigh, bend your top leg over and place foot on floor in front of the bottom legs knee, place dumbbell on inner thigh and lift leg.

Heres one way of doing squats that might help to take a little pressure of your knee..remeber to squeeze your butt on the way up


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## jfarnsworth

arnisador said:
			
		

> I've never seen someone come out against the bench press. .


Ego problems. 
I hate doing flat bench presses. The only reason I do flat presses is with dumbbells. I finish with a decline barbell press. On my incline days I do the same. Incline dumbbells first, heavy. Then at the end use the barbell. Too many people do the same thing of "I can't bench more than you". Who really gives a ****. Put a pair of dumbells in your hand and strech the pecs to the max then press. See how many reps with what weight you can do then. I can't stand the ego's in the gym. Everyone is there for the common reason. Get in shape and push yourself. Well at least it should be that.


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## TigerWoman

I like the Totalgym alot. Great for the upperbody but its not good for legs, too awkward with the pulleys and hooking.  I probably would stay with the totalgym but free weights are just as good. But if you could get a personal trainer to show you how to use the free weights for some strength and toning, you don't need a machine. Sometimes community ed programs allow you to take a short course. Powerblock weights are real good, they are compact and easy to change-all one unit. http://www.powerblock.com/  Plus they are real balanced.  

Just plain kicking is good for toning, strength building legs.  Most people here may know I have bad knees...well, me and my hubby just got an elliptical that has an incline mostly for a good general cardio workout which lately I haven't gotten in TKD due to not jumping any more. Its good for strength training the legs too.  And its pretty good for knees, no impact.  Alot of gyms have those if you want to try them out.  I got a cheapy, a few hundred, a couple of years ago and it only falls apart.  TW


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## Shirt Ripper

arnisador said:
			
		

> You can do a lot with dumbbells.
> 
> I've never seen someone come out against the bench press. What's the argument? Start another trehad if appropriate.



Dumbells are excellent tools.  The single arm DB overhead press is one of my favorite movements and, come to think of it, definetely a great exercise for most martial artists...and people.

Not so much against the bench press as I think it generally has far too much emphasis.  It's a good exercise and, indeed, a tremendous means of adding muscle mass to the upper torso, I simply think there are other movements (namely the basic press) which should hold primary status in one programs ahead of the BP.

When sparring (or art equivalent) how often are you lying down and pressing up?  With perhaps the exception of them grappling types.  Obviously the bench press is not intended, for the most part to be a sport specifc exercise but that certainly should not deter one from considering it's relevance.

Also, I apologize for some ugly spelling in a previous post.


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## arnisador

I do double arm DB overhead presses, palms-in and 'regular'. I've seen the argument that the single arm is better for this and for other exercises, but have usually stuck with the double (for no special reason).


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## Jonathan Randall

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Ego problems.
> I hate doing flat bench presses. The only reason I do flat presses is with dumbbells. I finish with a decline barbell press. On my incline days I do the same. Incline dumbbells first, heavy. Then at the end use the barbell. Too many people do the same thing of "I can't bench more than you". Who really gives a ****. Put a pair of dumbells in your hand and strech the pecs to the max then press. See how many reps with what weight you can do then. I can't stand the ego's in the gym. Everyone is there for the common reason. Get in shape and push yourself. Well at least it should be that.


 
Excellent point. I HATE that the first question always out of people's mouth when they hear I work out is; "How much can you press?". Fortunately the person who I get my training and advice from (fitness fanatic coworker) has no ego problem and thinks overstressing your body is stupid. Also, so MANY gym accidents are the result of showing off. These are some of the reason that I use dumbells at home and avoid commercial gyms.


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## Jonathan Randall

green meanie said:
			
		

> If I were you, I'd just start out with a couple sets of dumbells. They don't require a lot of weight to do what you'd want to do with them and there's a lot of options available since can do just about anything you can think of with them.


 
For Lisa's stated goals, IIRC, of endurance, toning and moderate strength increase, dumbbells would be perfect, IMO, as well. For her husband, who wants to gain mass, heavier weights (as well as a spotter for safety) will be needed. For most martial artists, I personally think that dumbells, combined with some bodyweight exercises, are ideal.


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## Shirt Ripper

arnisador said:
			
		

> I've seen the argument that the single arm is better for this and for other exercises, but have usually stuck with the double (for no special reason).



You just gotta ask; better for what?  Everything is relative depending on goals.


----------



## arnisador

I'm looking to bulk up--not like a bodybuilder, but a healthier look, and more muscle to burn fat.


----------



## Sarah

Made any progress yet Lisa!!  decided what you are going to do?


----------



## Sapper6

Lisa said:
			
		

> So in the spirit of the new year, my hubby and I have decided to start lifting weights on a regular basis and are contemplating either investing in a machine or free weights. We have a few free weights, just not enough.
> 
> Would you recommend BowFlex (I am a little leary of this one) or an actual weight machine with the pulleys or free weights? why or why not?
> 
> Much Thanks!


 
a friend and I recently went in on a BowFlex together.  i like the workouts.  the BF people plan for more workouts than what you'll be able to complete anyway (in a timely fashion, daily).  from experience, the BF is more geared toward toning, rather than strength training.  we use it 3 times a week for about 20 minutes on various workouts.  IMO, money well spent.

good luck with your resolution.


----------



## Phoenix44

I've used machines, free weights, and resistance tubes at difference times and for different reasons.  

The machines, I think, are fine for general strength training, and they keep the alignment.  You can't fall out of place as easily with a machine.  I find my biggest problem with machines is that it's easy to allow your stronger side to take the weight while your non-dominant side goofs off.

IMO, free weights are better to improve symmetry, and for definition.  Thye require more control than machines.

Resistance bands are easy, safe, adjustable, and very convenient.  I use them a lot.


----------



## Jonathan Randall

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> I've used machines, free weights, and resistance tubes at difference times and for different reasons.
> 
> The machines, I think, are fine for general strength training, and they keep the alignment. You can't fall out of place as easily with a machine. I find my biggest problem with machines is that it's easy to allow your stronger side to take the weight while your non-dominant side goofs off.
> 
> IMO, free weights are better to improve symmetry, and for definition. Thye require more control than machines.
> 
> Resistance bands are easy, safe, adjustable, and very convenient. I use them a lot.


 
I forgot entirely about resistance bands. Yes, they are great and very inexpensive, versatile and safe (relative to free weights, IMO). 

Personally, I just never had luck with strength increases carrying over into martial arts from machines; although I recognize that other's will have different results.

I forgot to add to Lisa something that I forgot mention in my earlier responses - if a person is otherwise in good shape, you will be astonished what they can accomplish in terms of general toning, increased endurance and modest strength increases simply by adding two to three 40 minute workouts a week. A trainer or good video, though, is necessary, IMO, as that efficiency only comes with skill and knowledge. I have better results now at 38 by lifting two to three days a week for 45 minutes than I did when almost literally living at the gym at 19 years of age.

Also, find a way to add pull-ups to your routine - if you don't already. In terms of real-world functional strength, it is one of the most important exercises out there and your personal safety (or your family's) could someday depend upon your being able to pull yourself up (onto a boat after falling overboard, out of a burning building, etc.). Best of luck in your training.


----------



## Lisa

Sarah said:
			
		

> Made any progress yet Lisa!!  decided what you are going to do?



Sorry, I have been preoccupied with trying to get back in the swing of things after my three week xmas break 

Yup, have decided on the free weights (space is an issue) with cardio on my stationary bike and perhaps elipitical, we will see.

Hubby and I are going weight shopping on Thursday as it seems that is the only evening this week we have together.

Any suggestions as to what we should buy?  What is a good amount of weights to have?   And what is the pros/cons to having a straight bar as opposed to one of those bent ones?

Thanks everyone, you all have been great.


----------



## arnisador

If you only get one bar, you'll want a straight one. As  to how much weight...you can buy plates singly, so don't worry too much about it!


----------



## Shirt Ripper

"Bent ones" are the E-Z Curls and not _really_ needed.  As far as starting out, picking up a set is the more $ efficient, so the 300lbs. olympic or the 100lbs. standard whichever suits ya'lls need the best.  Shop around because most places(at least around here) put them on sale fairly regular.  The same for individual plates...I just got to 45 pounders for 49 cents a pound which are typically 59 cents a pound.

A normal store bought set should suit your needs fine but if you are interested in a more of a competitive quality I can post a couple links to good suppliers...but I doubt you'll need it.


----------



## Sarah

Dont forget to have a look on an auction site (Ebay) or something similar...lots of people buy weights and never use them, you may be able to pick up some for cheap.


----------



## Lisa

Went out and bought the weights I needed.  Didn't need much as we already had some.

I went online and found a "beginner" weight lifting routine and tried it out Tuesday evening.  I made the big beginner gung ho mistake of going at it really hard. 

Owie....I hurt today.  I found those muscles that I thought I didn't have.   Yesterday wasn't too bad but today stairs are lots of fun! (NOT!) LOL!  Serves me right.

Anyways... going to lift again tonight.  A little slower and a little less "gung ho" like.  

I am thinking three times a week is a good start so I will probably do the routine on Saturday again, that is, if I can walk


----------



## Sarah

Lisa said:
			
		

> Went out and bought the weights I needed. Didn't need much as we already had some.
> 
> I went online and found a "beginner" weight lifting routine and tried it out Tuesday evening. I made the big beginner gung ho mistake of going at it really hard.
> 
> Owie....I hurt today. I found those muscles that I thought I didn't have.  Yesterday wasn't too bad but today stairs are lots of fun! (NOT!) LOL! Serves me right.
> 
> Anyways... going to lift again tonight. A little slower and a little less "gung ho" like.
> 
> I am thinking three times a week is a good start so I will probably do the routine on Saturday again, that is, if I can walk


 
Hehe...the second day after is always the worst.


----------



## arnisador

Good for you! Three times a week is fine, but you can make good progress at twice a week (or every three days) too. Some people actually do better at only twice a week. Don't feel you need to go often...you need to do it regularly, get rest, and make sure there's enough protein in your diet.


----------



## Shirt Ripper

Lisa, if you find the time or care why don't you post a bit of this routine you speak of?  Just curious(this is kind of my field, ya know).


----------



## jfarnsworth

Here's mine. Let me know what you think. I'm always looking for the right people to help me out. 

http://www.live2befit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=15065#15065


----------



## Lisa

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> Lisa, if you find the time or care why don't you post a bit of this routine you speak of?  Just curious(this is kind of my field, ya know).



Would love your input, so here goes.  

I am trying to make it a well rounded routine with my arms, legs and abs.

LEGS:
Dumbell squats = 3 sets of 10
Dumbell lunges = 3 sets of 10, each leg
Reverse lunges = 3 sets of 10, each leg (alternate days between reverse and lunges)
Calf raises  = 50 each leg
(I am only holding 5 pounds in each hand)

Also tried the butt exercise that sarah mentioned up thread, the burn was incredible!

ARMS and SHOULDERS:
Bicep curls = 3 sets of 10
Dumbell shoulder press = 3 sets of 10
Concentration curl = 3 sets of 10
Dumbell tricep extension = 3 sets of 10
Kickback = 3 sets of 10

Weights I am holding vary depending on the exercise.

ABS:
Raised leg crunches usually about 50 holding for 4 seconds.

The first set is easy, the second harder and the third a killer.  Perhaps I am doing too much at once or maybe not enough?  Haven't technically done "exercise" like these in quite some time.  Input is welcome


----------



## Jonathan Randall

Lisa said:
			
		

> Went out and bought the weights I needed. Didn't need much as we already had some.
> 
> I went online and found a "beginner" weight lifting routine and tried it out Tuesday evening. I made the big beginner gung ho mistake of going at it really hard.
> 
> Owie....I hurt today. I found those muscles that I thought I didn't have.  Yesterday wasn't too bad but today stairs are lots of fun! (NOT!) LOL! Serves me right.
> 
> Anyways... going to lift again tonight. A little slower and a little less "gung ho" like.
> 
> I am thinking three times a week is a good start so I will probably do the routine on Saturday again, that is, if I can walk


 
Just my experience, but I have found that a five day rest works best for me after a lay off longer than a couple of months. The reason is, that the body needs to rebuild and acclimate itself to the new stress of resistance exercises and working out. IMO, less than at least a 72 hour rest after your fist workout will actually set you back.

Don't worry at all about using 5 pound weights. When I began high-repetition lifting for endurance and toning, I started with only a five and ten pound weights (ten, only for easier exercises). I am now at 50 pounds for many of the exercises that twelve years ago, I used 5-10 for.

Also, don't overlook dips, pushups and pullups. These bodyweight exercises have enormous strength payoffs, IMO.

Good luck and I"m glad it is working for you. Keep us apraised of your progress.


----------



## Eternal Beginner

This is kind of an interesting article on weight-training for women.
http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=47

Definitely some food for thought.


----------



## arnisador

Hmmm...nothing focusing on the chest and back or traps?

Might want to vary the abs routine a bit too to work out different sections of the abs.


----------



## Shirt Ripper

First off, all will find a lot of good information on the site linked by Eternal Beginner.  The dudes name is Paul Chek and he knows his junk for the most part.
Secondly, Mr. Farnsworth, kudos on keeping a log (esp. via the net).  One of the easiest things one can do to ensure success with training.

I noticed one of your "interests" to be "body building" and I think this likely explains your style of training (lifting).  But, have you ever experimented with a more holistic approach to training the body?  As a complex system, the body is best trained that way.  This is dually true considering you are likely lifting to improve you abilities as a martial artist (as well as other reasons) and considering to nature of your style (TKD, Kenpo).  Rather than trying to "isolate" certain muscles or muscle groups, training movements and movement patterns (similar to training forms).

These same thoughts apply to Lisa as you post revealed a similar method.

You approach isn't wrong, but I beleive there are methods with which you could achieve greater gain and success in, not only the short term but the long term as well.


----------



## jfarnsworth

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> I noticed one of your "interests" to be "body building" and I think this likely explains your style of training (lifting).


I have molded my workout sessions from the professionals via flex magazine, flexonline forum, muscle and fitness, tv programs and various other web sites I found along the way. The exercises I preform I've used during trial and error of what I think works best for me.



> But, have you ever experimented with a more holistic approach to training the body?


I have no idea what you mean. Sorry but it's over my head. 



> considering you are likely lifting to improve you abilities as a martial artist (as well as other reasons) and considering to nature of your style (TKD, Kenpo).


That's mostly it. I like to challenge myself as hard as possible in whatever physical activity at hand. I would also like to still look at least half ways descent. Well descent for me anyway.


----------



## Shirt Ripper

Fair enough, J.  Nothing wrong with wanting to look good.

I'm talking about directing your training to a more athletic means.  As you style involves (though I don't know much of kenpo - mostly striking and kicking it seems, correct?) explosive, highly athletic meneuvers one can train with certain methods to assist the bodies ability in the performance of these skills.  [Am I long winded or what? Sheesh!]
So, instead of doing, say, leg extensions/curls or even leg presses, one might do cleans, high pulls or squats.  This is what I mean by "holistic."  Your training the body as a system because thats what it is and thats how you use it.  There are also"power" based movements that will develop your bodies power which is the nature of you kicking and the like in TKD.
Doing what your doing is obviously working out for you but have you ever thought of incorporating bigger, multi-joint movements into your program?  I believe (know) you will benefit greatly from them.  They take time to learn to correctly perform them (most do not...lazy) but it is well worth it.


----------



## rutherford

HI!  I'll be you're devil's advocate for this thread.  I'm actually hoping to get certified in Scott Sonnon's Circular Strength Training program within the next couple years, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Building strength is great, but I think you really need to consider what kind of strength you want to build.  Think about it.  There's lots of different kind of strength, with lots of different goals for each.  Bodybuilders primarily want to look good.  I've done this path, to the point where I looked great and felt AMAZING.  My muscles were well defined and BIGger than anything I'd dreamed of before getting started on the circuit.

But it all seemed like mashed potatoes when I tried to use that strength.  Sure, I could bench press almost twice my body weight with ease and great form, but what good was it really doing me in complex motions and actual performance??

My friend, Tom Dorney - who competed in international wushu championships, was a much smaller guy and yet he could Flagpole absolutely anywhere.  Anyplace he could put his hands, he could make his body perpendicular to the ground and hold that pose for as long as you cared to watch.  The full body stability was simply breathtaking, especially if you actually tried the excercise yourself.

That's gymnastic strength.  Powerlifting is another kind of strength.  Kettlebells gives you another.  Clubbells yet another.  

I'll be happy when I can move like a yoga guru and hit like a cannon.  You might have different goals.

IMNSHO, Bodybuilding and most weight lifting will leave your joints brittle and your strength limited to specific ranges of motion.  But, one thing you'll always find is that looking good is mostly based on your diet.

In any case, choose a path and stick with it until you're reached a mastery level.  Dabbling here and there just confuses your body and makes it work towards goals which are often conflicting.


Rant off.


----------



## Shirt Ripper

rutherford said:
			
		

> IMNSHO, Bodybuilding and most weight lifting will leave your joints brittle and your strength limited to specific ranges of motion.quote]
> 
> *Bull!*  That means your doing it wrong.  If you are using these various ideas as means to better athleticism and better martial arts abilities and it hinders your abilities....you did it wrong.  This gist of what your saying agrees with what I have been saying.
> 
> Good to see someone interested in Clubbell training.  What's you training background otherwise?


----------



## Brother John

Lisa said:
			
		

> So in the spirit of the new year, my hubby and I have decided to start lifting weights on a regular basis and are contemplating either investing in a machine or free weights. We have a few free weights, just not enough.
> 
> Would you recommend BowFlex (I am a little leary of this one) or an actual weight machine with the pulleys or free weights? why or why not?
> 
> Much Thanks!


 
Freeweights!!!!!!!!!!!
Versatility and a MUCH better training effect!

Hands down.....


Your Brother
John


----------



## Brother John

rutherford said:
			
		

> IMNSHO, Bodybuilding and most weight lifting will leave your joints brittle and your strength limited to specific ranges of motion. But, one thing you'll always find is that looking good is mostly based on your diet.
> 
> In any case, choose a path and stick with it until you're reached a mastery level.


 
The 1st statement...I MUST heartily disagree. According to exercise physiology you're premise is backwards... if training is done correctly. (..and doing it correctly isn't all that complicated, I could write it out on a post-it note)

the 2nd.........heartily Agree!

Your Brother
John


----------



## Odin

Brother John said:
			
		

> Freeweights!!!!!!!!!!!
> Versatility and a MUCH better training effect!
> 
> Hands down.....
> 
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
I agree although machines are good for when you first start off,Alot of people (mainly male sadly to say) over estimate there strength when they get into a gym,Ive seen grown man drop dumbbells on they're foreheads and everything,I personal would use the machines for a bit before using free weights,just to get your body used to the added stress your giving it..think off it as staberlizers on your first bike.

The best on-line resource for anything to do with improving strength and bodybuilding check out www.bodybuilding.com it has absolutely everything you'll ever need to know about every muscle in your body!


----------



## Shirt Ripper

Odin said:
			
		

> I agree although machines are good for when you first start off,Alot of people (mainly male sadly to say) over estimate there strength when they get into a gym,Ive seen grown man drop dumbbells on they're foreheads and everything,I personal would use the machines for a bit before using free weights,just to get your body used to the added stress your giving it..think off it as staberlizers on your first bike.
> 
> The best on-line resource for anything to do with improving strength and bodybuilding check out www.bodybuilding.com it has absolutely everything you'll ever need to know about every muscle in your body!


 
Starting off with machines so as not to "jump the gun" is one of those ideas that is good on paper but really _can_ be just as dangerous as irresponsibly throwing weight on the bar.  Your starting the muscles off with a highly controlled environment with only one possible plane of motion.  Most often with incorrect mechanics as well.  Then you grab a real bar and the muscle group involved is doing so much more than pushing in one direction.  There is the stabilization factor, not to mention the fact that "lifting weights" stretngthens so much more than a muscle.  Groups of muscles, bones, tendons, ligaments...  These other structures will not have adapted to the stress you will put on it.  Also, if a person is of the personality that they must feed their ego and load inappropriate weights on then they are likely to take it a step further considering all the preperatory "work" they (think they) have been doing on the machines.

Bodybuilding.com is a tremendous resource but most certainly is not "the best online resource or anything to do with improving strength and bodybuilding..."  It has some tremendous materials and the like but it is not the best site out there.  Also, for the most part, it is limited to bodybuilding specific ideas which, though important to some extent, should not be a staple of any martial artists supplementary training.


----------



## rutherford

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> What's you training background otherwise?


 Amateur, up to now.  I've got barely a year in as my own client in Scott's program.  There's lots left to try and experience.  I find it fits well with being more present and paying attention to my movements as much as possible through the entire day.  

And, as for the disagreements above, well I don't really see them as disagreements.  I really enjoyed your "holistic" approach and my comments don't apply much to that.


----------



## Shirt Ripper

rutherford said:
			
		

> Amateur, up to now. I've got barely a year in as my own client in Scott's program. There's lots left to try and experience. I find it fits well with being more present and paying attention to my movements as much as possible through the entire day.
> 
> And, as for the disagreements above, well I don't really see them as disagreements. I really enjoyed your "holistic" approach and my comments don't apply much to that.


 
As far as your thoughts in comparison to mine I was referencing the "functionality" aspect of things.  Pump sets on bicep curls will do nothing for most MA types, whereas minimal well crafted work with clubbells could do wonders.

When I asked of you background I was thinking formal education, competitive experience, training experience.  Just curious as to the experience of the "training minded" folks in here.


----------



## rutherford

Ahh.  Sure.  Quick history, most has been elaborated on in earlier posts . . . somewhere around here.

I'm a computer geek with a BS in such, for educational level.  Started lifting weights at 14, mostly to Get Big.  Like most kids, I did a ton of benching and way too few squats or other dynamic movements.  Never any kind of powerlifting.  

By high school I was competing in wrestling and working out with them.  Wasn't a very competitive division, but I picked up some stuff.  Did a bit of amatuer boxing, but never developed the cardio to be serious about it.

Went on to YSU and was taking classes and private lessons with the football team's strength coach.  That was when Tressel was head coach, and I always said I thought he went to Columbus just so I could keep seeing his games.  

I was training in JKD at the time.  

And then I took some years off to have kids, drink beer, smoke cigarettes, and sit on the couch.  About exactly a year ago I had a major wakeup call.  It was a short time before I registered here.

I looked into Pavel's stuff because that's what a lot of my Bujinkan training group uses to build strength.  But I was also looking into Systema at the same time, and it was a quick hop to Scott's camp.  I'm still doing more of his bodyweight series than clubbell training, but there's nothing quite like swinging a club and I'm working more of it into my training schedule.

I also dabble in a bit of Silat, especially Karambit work.  And you probably remember I'm thinking about trying out some Aikido.

Unlike my advice above, it probably looks like I'm spreading myself too thinly.  But I actually do have a bit of a method to my madness, and I feel Aikido is probably going to be the biggest diversion from that overall path.  We'll see.  

I feel better now than I did when I was 18, and I'm 10 pounds lighter.  We'll see how it turns out, and then maybe I'll experiment on other people.

%-}


----------



## Shirt Ripper

rutherford said:
			
		

> About exactly a year ago I had a major wakeup call. It was a short time before I registered here.


 
Good decision.  Cigarettes are bad.  Thanks for the rundown.


----------



## Shirt Ripper

Lisa said:
			
		

> Would love your input, so here goes.
> 
> I am trying to make it a well rounded routine with my arms, legs and abs.
> 
> LEGS:
> Dumbell squats = 3 sets of 10
> Dumbell lunges = 3 sets of 10, each leg
> Reverse lunges = 3 sets of 10, each leg (alternate days between reverse and lunges)
> Calf raises = 50 each leg
> (I am only holding 5 pounds in each hand)
> 
> Also tried the butt exercise that sarah mentioned up thread, the burn was incredible!
> 
> ARMS and SHOULDERS:
> Bicep curls = 3 sets of 10
> Dumbell shoulder press = 3 sets of 10
> Concentration curl = 3 sets of 10
> Dumbell tricep extension = 3 sets of 10
> Kickback = 3 sets of 10
> 
> Weights I am holding vary depending on the exercise.
> 
> ABS:
> Raised leg crunches usually about 50 holding for 4 seconds.
> 
> The first set is easy, the second harder and the third a killer. Perhaps I am doing too much at once or maybe not enough? Haven't technically done "exercise" like these in quite some time. Input is welcome


 
Pretty sure I forgot to look through this after you posted it.  MMA, right?
The last set being the hardest isn't a bad thing, it's a pretty solid basic set-up.

It might get redundant now, but I will recommend training with the focus on movements rather than body parts/regions.  So, "Overhead Pressing" as opposed to "shoulders."  This is because the overhead press is a tremendous movements for athletes because it involves so much of the upper body (from the hips and up!).

Decent basic set-up on the first section.  Every try step-ups (on a relatively high box)?

Grab a broom handle and try overhead squatting.  All athletes should do them in my opinion.

It's okay and preferred to train the upper body in the same basic manner as the lower.

How often are you training in MMA specific stuff?  How often are you lifting?


----------



## evenflow1121

Well I guess I am a little late on this post but what the hell.

I would always take up free weights than a universal machine given the options.  Free weights can also tone if used properly, machines however tend to be too limited. 

My workout consists of mostly free weights.  While I did have a machine at home, I feel joining a gym is probably a better option.  The gym that I go to has everything I need, in fact it has 3 floors and in the long run it was cheaper than exercise equipment. IN any event my workout consist of 5 days a week routines.  I run two miles every day, on Mondays I do arms, Tuesday back and shoulders, Wednesday I do abs, Thursday is chest, and Friday is another ab day. My reps for weightlifting consist of 4 sets for every exercise of 20, 15, 12, and 7 reps.  Adding more weight each time I go up a set.  I hope this helps you.  Of course I do use machines for certain areas but they are very limited.  If I did not have the option of joining a gym however, I would go with free weights hands down.


----------



## rutherford

So, Shirt Ripper, how often do you have people who come to you and already have a good idea what they're doing or should be doing?

Have you got a good feel for how often people start an excercise program and "do it wrong" - to use your words?


----------



## Shirt Ripper

rutherford said:
			
		

> So, Shirt Ripper, how often do you have people who come to you and already have a good idea what they're doing or should be doing?
> 
> Have you got a good feel for how often people start an excercise program and "do it wrong" - to use your words?


 
The big problem with whether or not people have any idea of what to do is difficult to nail down simply because most often people are tainted by the many myths, fallacies and often times, lies that exist withing the "fitness world."

It all comes down to this.  I, honestly, don't care what people prefer to do or are doing in there training (as long as it is not obviously harmful) because to say that there is only one effective means of training for a desired goal is similar to saying there is only one way to spiritual enlightenment...just plain short sighted.  All I try to push with people is the few basic concepts that make things much easier, safer and more effective in the long run.  These basic principles should be the cornerstone of training and, as in most martial arts, must be mastered before moving on to "fancier things" or "highly advanced" methods.  I am currently learning to fall in aikido and at some point we will move to more advanced ideas.
The issue stems from peoples willingness to buy what their television sells them.  Gunter such-and-such says the only way to get rock hard abs is to buy his trampoline and hop around like a bunny and contract abs.  Sure.  People are _obsessed_ with the "new and improved" but few realize that there isn't much _new_ out there.  The fitness industry (personal trainers), or at least the ones I am exposed to certainly are not helping matters.

A person buys a "physio-ball" and starts doing an ab program with it.  They do crunches.  But can they manage a decent, basic bent-leg sit-up?  Often, they cannot.  So, how is this person better or fitter?  Now I am not taking away from the effectiveness of "instability" based training because it can be effective when ustilized correctly but shouldn't we address the bigger picture first.  This is why I am constantly telling people to "train the body as a system."  People avoid sit-ups because somebody they work with told them that they are bad for their back.  If you hurt your back doing something you either did it wrong or have a weak back (barring the freak accident and some other stange condition).

My mind is now becoming jumbled and so is this post so I will end it with one last thought of mine:

The majority of the population has never challenged nor developed their body in its most basic naturally stressed movements.  Because of this most are underdeveloped and prone to injury.  Common misconceptions, held as universal truths, prevent them from breaking this barrier and becoming better.

A belt, in most cases, is an issue of liability, not safety.

I will now go breath.


----------



## Lisa

So the weight lifting hasn't been a consistent thing this past month, except for the last week.  I have been doing the owie owie owie thing a lot with my quads again, however, not nearly as bad as it was.  I am trying to train smarter because lifting weights and then needing four days to recover really isn't accomplishing a whole lot. 

Anyways... I have been noticing with my shooting that my lower back becomes sore.  I need to strengthen that part of my body and would like some specific exercises to help with that if anyone would care to share some with me.  Thanks in advance.

Lisa


----------



## Jonathan Randall

Lisa said:
			
		

> So the weight lifting hasn't been a consistent thing this past month, except for the last week. I have been doing the owie owie owie thing a lot with my quads again, however, not nearly as bad as it was. I am trying to train smarter because lifting weights and then needing four days to recover really isn't accomplishing a whole lot.
> 
> Anyways... I have been noticing with my shooting that my lower back becomes sore. I need to strengthen that part of my body and would like some specific exercises to help with that if anyone would care to share some with me. Thanks in advance.
> 
> Lisa


 
I would seriously consider going with lighter weight and less sets and repetitions if you still need four days to recover. Work for slow and gradual gains rather than hitting it full bore. Heck, even an arms and legs toning DVD workout with light weights will give you some real endurance gains - particularly relative to those who do not train with resistance. I know that I worked up very gradually over a year's time before even purchasing heavy weights.

Regarding back exercises, I would recommend having a competent and trained specialist show you in person, if possible. Either that or a DVD where you can actually see the correct mechanics. Serious injuries - repetitive motion and outright tears can occur with incorrect technique.

Best of luck and don't hesitate to scale back. A workout with light weights two or three times a week is much preferrable, IMO, to more severe workouts that you're not able to stick with because of overstress (both life and physical) and long recovery times.


----------



## Shirt Ripper

Lisa said:
			
		

> So the weight lifting hasn't been a consistent thing this past month, except for the last week. I have been doing the owie owie owie thing a lot with my quads again, however, not nearly as bad as it was. I am trying to train smarter because lifting weights and then needing four days to recover really isn't accomplishing a whole lot.
> 
> Anyways... I have been noticing with my shooting that my lower back becomes sore. I need to strengthen that part of my body and would like some specific exercises to help with that if anyone would care to share some with me. Thanks in advance.
> 
> Lisa


 
There is _some_ merit to a longer recovery period...depending on training style, but I doubt you are utilizing those ideas.

Do you train (lift weights) in a fitness facility?  If you do you will likely have access to a glute-ham raise (http://www.eiu.edu/~strength/images/lifts/Lower/gh2.jpg) or a back extension stand(http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/ErectorSpinae/WtBackExtension.html).  Use either to do back extensions.  Don't worry about using weight as demonstrated above.  I would say that you can go a bit farther with your range of motion at the top and the bottom as well...maybe 20 degree further at the top.  Start with higher rep sets and build from there.  Do not jump the gun as it might bite you...

Otherwise there are many more compound movements which hold equal or greater merit for this purpose.

'good day.


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## Lisa

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> Otherwise there are many more compound movements which hold equal or greater merit for this purpose.
> 
> 'good day.



Please...feel free to continue


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## Shirt Ripper

Lisa said:
			
		

> Please...feel free to continue


 
Okay.
I missed the "shooting" aspect of the issue.  Simply training diligently with that will strengthen a bit...but you knew that.  Squat, Overhead squat, front squat, zercher squat (I probably wouldn't recomend those though...), Good mornings, Deadlift, Romanian Deadlift, stiff legged deadlift, Extensions (f/ above), cleans and snatches.  A lot of options...

I recommend a focus on movements that require the "trunk" of the body to stabalize as that is it's primary purpose (not crunches).  So, overhead pressing while keeping strict posture is an excellent idea and I would also highly recommend squatting...holding the weight on the shoulders will require great adaptation of the stabalizing function of the body.

Hmm...I'll think on it a bit more...


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## Lisa

Thanks Shirt Ripper.  When I am in position on the line and my hips are tilted forward and cocked to one side toward the target, I feel a pull in my back starting just below each shoulder and down into my lower back.  I think it is the rhomboidous major muscle or the latissimus dorsai or a combination, I just don't know.  I figure I need to stretch better and build all the muscles in my back.


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## Shirt Ripper

Lisa said:
			
		

> Thanks Shirt Ripper. When I am in position on the line and my hips are tilted forward and cocked to one side toward the target, I feel a pull in my back starting just below each shoulder and down into my lower back. I think it is the rhomboidous major muscle or the latissimus dorsai or a combination, I just don't know. I figure I need to stretch better and build all the muscles in my back.



Alright.  Your new(er) to the bow correct?  Just like anything else your body will make the adjustments needed to effectively perform, but...

If you want to take it to the weightroom to help I suggest overhead pressing and rowing.  With the pressing (DB's or BB's) focus on strict form and solid posture (as discussed, I believe in another thread), this will really stress the rhomboids, lats, post delts as the antagonists/synergists of the movement.  I suggest unilateral bent DB rows to stress the independent pulling action of the arms.  Really squeeze the shoulder blade back and actively contract the lats.  If you can manage pull ups work them hard, if not lat pulls can be effective as well.  Again, not just the arms are moving-really squeeze the shoulder blades together and contract the lats.

Recap:
Overhead Press - strict form
DB Rows - Rhomboid/Lat action more important than arm movement
*straight bar can be used free of any support from bench - one of the best upper body movements
Pull ups/lat pull - Scapular retraction is key

Also, simple body weight pushups can be very effective here depending on your training history.

I believe I touched on Back extensions and stuff in a previous post, mix in some of these ideas with some of those...but don't go nuts for doughnuts, ya know?  Work slowly into it...you know.


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## Shirt Ripper

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> Alright.  Your new(er) to the bow correct?



Bow?  You've been shooting!  I don't know why I was thinking bow and arrow there...oh well...the ideas will still apply.:idunno:


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## Lisa

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> Bow?  You've been shooting!  I don't know why I was thinking bow and arrow there...oh well...the ideas will still apply.:idunno:



hee hee, tis okay Shirt Ripper, it made me laugh when I read it this morning.


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## Shirt Ripper

How are things coming here?


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## Lisa

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> How are things coming here?



They are coming fair.  Would love to say they are coming along great, but they aren't.

My problem is the committment truthfully.  I am only lifting once, maybe twice a week if I am lucky.  

*sigh...

I need to find the motivation again...


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## Jonathan Randall

Lisa said:
			
		

> They are coming fair. Would love to say they are coming along great, but they aren't.
> 
> My problem is the committment truthfully. I am only lifting once, maybe twice a week if I am lucky.
> 
> *sigh...
> 
> I need to find the motivation again...


 
Update? How's it coming, or not coming, now?


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## Lisa

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Update? How's it coming, or not coming, now?



It is coming nicely actually, thank for asking. 

I am regular two times a week.  Been out riding my bike or doing stationary as well.  My surgery on my mouth but me back a week or two but I am right back at it again now.


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## CTKempo Todd

Lisa,
Apologize for jumping into the game so late but I will give advice in any case.

Let me quailfy: I am an Kempo instructor and certified personal trainer.

What I use with my clients is a good adjustable flat/incline bench, a stability ball and a set of powerblock dumbbells. (www.powerblock.com)

These dumbells can be adjusted anywhere from 5 pounds all the way to 135 pounds (f you get the correct set).

With this equipment you can do 99.9% of any exercixe you can do at any gym or with any fancy 2,000$ piece of equipment. Also working with dumbbells is much better than barbells because of the increase in recruiting a ton more muscle fibers used just to stabilize everything. 
As others have said, if someone wants to add muscle, you need to send the body 'the proper request'. What I mean is low reps and heavy weight. Over time the body will respond in kind to that by adding mass.

Also keep in mind, every 6 - 8 weeks the human body has gone through a change cycle and will 'arrive' at the point of what your routine has been calling it to do. This is the point where a change in routine is needed or else you plateau.


Best of luck
Todd Guay
CT Kempo and Fitness
South Meriden, CT


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## Lisa

Todd,

No problem.  I like getting all the advice I can get.  This is a discussion forum after all.  Good discussion is always welcome. 

The powerblock sets looks sweet.  A little above my price range, but definitely something to consider in the future and I will have to look further into having them shipped to Canada and what the added cost will be.

Thanks so much for your input.  I thought the time of plateau was a little shorter.  I had it in my mind that it was 3-4 weeks.  Not sure I remember where I got that number from.

BTW, ya look good in red


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## Shirt Ripper

Those powerblocks are the better of the type on the market, I will vouch for them as well.  You can, many times, find them in stores but too often are the lighter ones.  The bowflex version is poor quality and overpriced.


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## CTKempo Todd

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> Those powerblocks are the better of the type on the market, I will vouch for them as well. You can, many times, find them in stores but too often are the lighter ones. The bowflex version is poor quality and overpriced.


 
Yes true SR...
I recommend the Rexan Pro set...The base set is about 245.00 and takes the weight to 45 lbs or so. Then you can add another add on to 85lbs...

It is still cheaper than the equilavent in dumbells, both in terms of price and room needed..


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