# Knife work from a modernist approach



## angelariz (May 11, 2021)

I started JKD concepts FMA a long time ago. I trained in the basic sets of sinawali and a million combinations of drills. A dozen plus disarms and lots of pie in the sky drills.

I love the good it brought.
Movement, grip work, and broken rhythm were top of the list.


However, after nearly 30 years of life and sparring with grapplers and slowing down with age, I have to admit, that traditional training with endless drills and disarms are NOT going to get people ready for the sewing machine attack, grappling with weapons involved, and mass attack with different length weapons.

So, my .02 on trad FMA training is that is great for the first foundation. But then, one must get into more combative based weapons work.

I believe
Sifu Paul Vunak
Hock Hocheim
And
Pat O'mally have some of the best combative work that seems to be geared toward better outcomes if forced to deal with violence.

No dig at anyone, I just figured it may bring about a conversation to share other regional combative instructors with more modern approaches to edged weapon combative arts.


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## Shatteredzen (May 11, 2021)

angelariz said:


> I started JKD concepts FMA a long time ago. I trained in the basic sets of sinawali and a million combinations of drills. A dozen plus disarms and lots of pie in the sky drills.
> 
> I love the good it brought.
> Movement, grip work, and broken rhythm were top of the list.
> ...


It all comes down to how much you spar. Are you trying to learn how to fight with a knife or defend against it? IF you are getting older and don't want to do the grappling, try some traditional (not olympic) fencing, there are styles that focus on daggers specifically. Kali is the only living style I know of though with continuity to modern day.


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## angelariz (May 11, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> It all comes down to how much you spar. Are you trying to learn how to fight with a knife or defend against it? IF you are getting older and don't want to do the grappling, try some traditional (not olympic) fencing, there are styles that focus on daggers specifically. Kali is the only living style I know of though with continuity to modern day.


I have to work all of those things. They are all part of my certification with PFS. 
However I do know that i am slowing down. The once agile kid (me) is now called Old man by my kids.


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## lklawson (May 12, 2021)

Fighting is fighting.  The fundamentals of fighting with a weapon are pretty similar.  You just have to make variances for length, weight, weapon shape, armor, etc.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Graywalker (May 12, 2021)

If you engage in a knife fight, it doesn't matter what art you train in, you will get cut.


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## lklawson (May 14, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> If you engage in a knife fight, it doesn't matter what art you train in, you will get cut.


Except when you don't.


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## Dirty Dog (May 14, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> If you engage in a knife fight, it doesn't matter what art you train in, you will get cut.


Are you sure about that?
I've had a knife pulled on me with intent three times. I was injured in one of the three conflicts.


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## Graywalker (May 14, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Are you sure about that?
> I've had a knife pulled on me with intent three times. I was injured in one of the three conflicts.


I will rephrase that.."you will most likely get cut" ....but I am curious as to what weapon you had?


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## Graywalker (May 14, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Except when you don't.


Doesn't make sense.


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## punisher73 (May 14, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Doesn't make sense.


You made a definitive statement that you will get cut in a knife fight.  He pointed out that you might be in a situation and not get cut.


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## Graywalker (May 14, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> You made a definitive statement that you will get cut in a knife fight.  He pointed out that you might be in a situation and not get cut.


Meh semantics, not much of a fan of that type of conversation.


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## Dirty Dog (May 14, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> I will rephrase that.."you will most likely get cut" ....but I am curious as to what weapon you had?


Except in 66.6% of the attacks, I did not, in fact, get cut. I had no weapon in any of the attacks. In the first, I was 17 years old and being mugged. In the other two, I was in the ER, where using a weapon would result in more than a couple meetings.


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## isshinryuronin (May 14, 2021)

There are unskilled and skilled knife attackers.  Against the unskilled, a well trained karate or other TMA guy (with weapons defense practice) can rely on his standard techniques and have a good shot coming out of it without serious injury.

Against the skilled knife attacker, TMA techniques are not realistic to deal with the threat.  Knife defense becomes an entirely new game requiring a new skill set.  Emphasis must be placed on constant checking, continuous control of the knife arm, and positioning one's body and arms to minimize the cuts likely to be suffered.  Speed and aggression are needed to stay proactive and ahead of the action.  This is true whether the defender is armed or not.  

The poster implied his FMA training/drills was not sufficient to deal with a good knife attacker.  I think most all the tools needed can be found there (perhaps elsewhere as well), given the proper instructor.  As in all MA, the art supplies the tools, the teacher shows how and when to use them, the student practices - tests for effective application - and practices some more. 

Last comment:  Knife fights are life or death.  One's head must be in the game and be willing to accept the risk of kill or be killed.  Not all can do that, perhaps very few - I don't know if it's even predictable.  Engagement is definitely a last resort.


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## Graywalker (May 14, 2021)

Hmm...he must have had a better weapon.😆


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## lklawson (May 15, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Doesn't make sense.


Which seems to indicate that you may not know as much about the subject as you imply. The fact is that in a statistically significant number of events, a person does not get cut.

What you are doing is repeating a commonly cited platitude. It is not intended to be understood as a fact, is intended to prepare the person for the possibility. If a person goes into a knife fight and expects that there is a possibility that they will get injured then it isn't a surprise, hopefully, and won't shut them down. But the fact is, for a lot of people, they do not get cut.

Stating as a fact, the way you did, is misleading at best and simply wrong, at worst

Peace favor your sword (mobile)


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## Dirty Dog (May 15, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Which seems to indicate that you may not know as much about the subject as you imply. The fact is that in a statistically significant number of events, a person does not get cut.
> 
> What you are doing is repeating a commonly cited platitude. It is not intended to be understood as a fact, is intended to prepare the person for the possibility. If a person goes into a knife fight and expects that there is a possibility that they will get injured then it isn't a surprise, hopefully, and won't shut them down. But the fact is, for a lot of people, they do not get cut.
> 
> ...


This.
You *might* get cut, but there are no reliable statistics to determine, with any degree of accuracy, exactly how likely it is. And never will be. Because there are far too many variables.


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## isshinryuronin (May 15, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Which seems to indicate that you may not know as much about the subject as you imply. The fact is that in a statistically significant number of events, a person does not get cut.
> 
> What you are doing is repeating a commonly cited platitude. It is not intended to be understood as a fact, is intended to prepare the person for the possibility. If a person goes into a knife fight and expects that there is a possibility that they will get injured then it isn't a surprise, hopefully, and won't shut them down. But the fact is, for a lot of people, they do not get cut.
> 
> ...


I understand the need for accepting the possibility of getting cut when confronting a knife.  The question is how much possibility of that is there?  You state it is fairly low.  I tend to think the opposite, but then, I don't have the statistics or practical experience in a real knife fight, so I'll approach this with an open mind.

The answer, no doubt, is situation dependent.  Please consider the following situations as to risk of the defender getting cut.

Are we talking one or both untrained or trained?  Do both or just the attacker have a knife?  Is the attacker actually attacking with the knife, or just threatening with it during a robbery?  Other variables?  If one is in a knife fight and no one gets cut, what the heck happens??? or does just the attacker get cut?

Knowing the answers to these questions should allow us to better evaluate risk, the meaning of the statistics you refer to, and better understand your position as well.  I would like to face a high risk situation with as much understanding as possible, so have a sincere interest in regards to these various scenarios and why you think the risk factor is low.  In the meantime, I'm going to think it's as dangerous as hell.


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## Graywalker (May 16, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Which seems to indicate that you may not know as much about the subject as you imply. The fact is that in a statistically significant number of events, a person does not get cut.
> 
> What you are doing is repeating a commonly cited platitude. It is not intended to be understood as a fact, is intended to prepare the person for the possibility. If a person goes into a knife fight and expects that there is a possibility that they will get injured then it isn't a surprise, hopefully, and won't shut them down. But the fact is, for a lot of people, they do not get cut.
> 
> ...


Oh for the love of god, it is simply an expression, to show the dangers of engaging in a knife fight. It wasn't (and I sincerely hope that it was obvious, and you are simply being arrogant) meant to be a statistic probability...you know, kind of like the expression, it's a shot in the dark.

But, let's see your links to the statistics, that you stated concerning, how most people who use blades in a fight, do not get cut.

Edit* Nevermind, I do not have the desire, to run down a martial talk word salad rabbit hole today...

I concede.


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## Rich Parsons (May 16, 2021)

Lots of real weapons used against me, from vehicles, yes moving vehicles trying to run me down , to clubs, gold clubs, bats, cattle electrical tazers, and knives and guns. 

One firearm shot at me from moving vehicle. Person locked arm at last second and sent the bullet low  between my legs.
Other firearm events, usually just pointed or brandished. 

Knives, I have ben cut twice. first was in a group and I did not see the weapon and it cut my arm barely. Second was a stab punch to my leg and I was moving through 10k people trying to find the *insert favorite swear here* who pouched my leg , asked my my leg was wet. 
I was bleeding. 

All the other times if empty handed, I ether took the blade from them or was able to dance and or strike them into submission. 
I have a knife in my pocket many times. Just no time to get it out and deploy it as I was too busy trying to stop the bad guy from putting holes into me. 

I have a lanyard and keys and swung and hit a hand for one disarm and another time hit the person in the face and they left. 
Other times we danced. One time I was able to wrap my arm in a jean jacket as I backed away and did not have anything in my pocket. 
Lots and lots of other times as well. 

Maybe I am lucky. Yet my number is much lower than 33% mentioned above, for that data point.


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## lklawson (May 17, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> I understand the need for accepting the possibility of getting cut when confronting a knife.  The question is how much possibility of that is there?  You state it is fairly low.  I tend to think the opposite, but then, I don't have the statistics or practical experience in a real knife fight, so I'll approach this with an open mind.
> 
> The answer, no doubt, is situation dependent.  Please consider the following situations as to risk of the defender getting cut.
> 
> ...


I wish, but it's far more complex than that.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 17, 2021)

I think the better statement would probably be "It doesn't matter what art you train in, be prepared to get cut if you engage in a knife fight".


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## angelariz (May 18, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Doesn't make sense.


Makes perfect sense.
You dont always get cut. 
Sometimes luck or favor or skill has a say.


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## angelariz (May 18, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> There are unskilled and skilled knife attackers.  Against the unskilled, a well trained karate or other TMA guy (with weapons defense practice) can rely on his standard techniques and have a good shot coming out of it without serious injury.
> 
> Against the skilled knife attacker, TMA techniques are not realistic to deal with the threat.  Knife defense becomes an entirely new game requiring a new skill set.  Emphasis must be placed on constant checking, continuous control of the knife arm, and positioning one's body and arms to minimize the cuts likely to be suffered.  Speed and aggression are needed to stay proactive and ahead of the action.  This is true whether the defender is armed or not.
> 
> ...


No I didn't say that at all. I said FMA is a good base but no one art has all the answers.

One must grapple, one must have different skill sets.


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## angelariz (May 18, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Fighting is fighting.  The fundamentals of fighting with a weapon are pretty similar.  You just have to make variances for length, weight, weapon shape, armor, etc.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Fighting is fighting...not so much. 
Today many people still think fighting is a 2 people in a duel.


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## Graywalker (May 18, 2021)

I am realizing, with this crowd, I need to explain in detail what I am stating.

My point was simple..."It does not matter, which art you train in, (pay attention to the Art, as that was the subject of my statement) you will have a probability of getting cut." ... It was my intention to show that the art, is not a guarantee that you won't be cut.

There is an old exercise that we did in the 80's in my Karate System. Everyone would grab a sharpie and try to stab and defend using the sharpie as a knife. It gave us a more realistic idea of what happens when one engages in a knife fight and we would attack as with intent to cause damage, no set or prearranged drills, simply all out. At the end of the sparring session, we would count the number of ink stains on our gi's and body....it was humbling.


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## Shatteredzen (May 18, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> I am realizing, with this crowd, I need to explain in detail what I am stating.
> 
> My point was simple..."It does not matter, which art you train in, (pay attention to the Art, as that was the subject of my statement) you will have a probability of getting cut." ... It was my intention to show that the art, is not a guarantee that you won't be cut.
> 
> There is an old exercise that we did in the 80's in my Karate System. Everyone would grab a sharpie and try to stab and defend using the sharpie as a knife. It gave us a more realistic idea of what happens when one engages in a knife fight and we would attack as with intent to cause damage, no set or prearranged drills, simply all out. At the end of the sparring session, we would count the number of ink stains on our gi's and body....it was humbling.


This is one of my favorite methods, grab some water soluble red markers, have the students wear a white undershirt and tell them to go to town on each other for thirty seconds. Also good for teaching disarms, you learn to commit at the right speed when you take three or four strikes to the hand and arm for hesitating.


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## Graywalker (May 18, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> This is one of my favorite methods, grab some water soluble red markers, have the students wear a white undershirt and tell them to go to town on each other for thirty seconds. Also good for teaching disarms, you learn to commit at the right speed when you take three or four strikes to the hand and arm for hesitating.


Yes, the all out was what we did first and then it was done in drills. It amazed me how a slight shift, would change the dynamics.

I have introduced this type of training, into several different systems and schools during my travels. A lot of the instructors were humble and adjusted their method of instruction.

Even with this training, I was still stabbed, but then again, it was against multiple attackers and I count it as a win, simply because I walked away with my life.


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## lklawson (May 18, 2021)

angelariz said:


> Fighting is fighting...not so much.



Sure it is.  The basic fundamentals and mechanics, balance, timing, distance, engagement, avoidance, are all still the same.  Fighting is fighting.



angelariz said:


> Today many people still think fighting is a 2 people in a duel.


That's one variation.  And "dueling" still happens a lot more than many people think.

I hear a lot of folks say, "there's no rules in a 'real' fight."  But it turns out that often times there are.  Sometimes the "rules" seem brutal or unfair by many personal standards but there really are "rules" a lot of the time.

As just one example, Greg Ellifritz wrote a widely distributed article titled "The Educational Beatdown" which describes one type of "real street fight' that does have "rules." 

Greg Ellifritz at DuckDuckGo"The+Educational+Beatdown"

And do you really think there aren't any duels any more?  Of course there are.  They're dirt common.   Two people who engage in mutual combat happens all the time, and often enough, they still agree to use more-or-less equal weapons.










It doesn't take much searching to find tons of videos of mutual combat, unarmed or with many varieties of weapons.

Are all fights mutual combat or duels?  Of course not.  But then again, they never were.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Hanshi (May 18, 2021)

Weapons and fighting training definitely help.  Facing a knife wielder while unarmed: super high risk of injury.  Facing a knife wielder with your own knife: merely high risk.  Facing a knife wielder with you armed with a bigger knife, pole or stick: moderate, but very real, risk.  In any knife situation the best move is, _out of there_.  If the guy has a knife but is terribly bad with it and you have a knife: chance of injury is fairly low but controlled by chaos theory (too many variables render it essentially out of your control.  Best defense, if you can't leave quickly, is any weapon that will create a distance that the *opponent* has to cross to hurt you.


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## angelariz (May 19, 2021)

Hanshi said:


> Weapons and fighting training definitely help.  Facing a knife wielder while unarmed: super high risk of injury.  Facing a knife wielder with your own knife: merely high risk.  Facing a knife wielder with you armed with a bigger knife, pole or stick: moderate, but very real, risk.  In any knife situation the best move is, _out of there_.  If the guy has a knife but is terribly bad with it and you have a knife: chance of injury is fairly low but controlled by chaos theory (too many variables render it essentially out of your control.  Best defense, if you can't leave quickly, is any weapon that will create a distance that the *opponent* has to cross to hurt you.


Yep.
But most stabbings are full on sewing machine. That is not something I like to think about but it is how it is. People get up close and personal if you are getting stuck. I'm not going to talk about scenarios or tactics  because that is all irrelevant to this conversation. 
You can train for duels. That is a fine martial art unto itself. 
But i am more concerned with the jail house grab you and hit with the sewing machine. Every system has its way. That is something I talk about train for more than these duels of mutual combat.


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## angelariz (May 19, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I think the better statement would probably be "It doesn't matter what art you train in, be prepared to get cut if you engage in a knife fight".


Getting cut is not even a concern to be honest. It is more the worry of nerve damage. We know we will be getting cut.--
Sparring a lot helps but the likelihood of getting poked or slashed is really high.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 19, 2021)

How does one actually prepare to deafeat the sewing machine attack?  it sort of presumes ambush and no weapons out.  If someones engaged in that it seems more likely you have been stabbed or cut before you can properly respond. 

Some form of force on force training and how its done is key in practising these though.


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## lklawson (May 19, 2021)

angelariz said:


> Yep.
> But most stabbings are full on sewing machine.


Most?  Or maybe "some."



angelariz said:


> That is not something I like to think about but it is how it is. People get up close and personal if you are getting stuck.


Except when they don't.

There's plenty of examples of grab and "sewing machine of death.'  There are also plenty of examples of not that.
























angelariz said:


> But i am more concerned with the jail house grab you and hit with the sewing machine.


Which absolutely does happen but isn't as universal an attack strategy as some people would have you believe.



angelariz said:


> Every system has its way. That is something I talk about train for more than these duels of mutual combat.


You have to figure out what is the most likely attack scenario and train for that first.  But you cannot stop there.  You have to continue and then also train for the second most likely.   Then the third, and so on.

And here's the thing, just because X is the most likely today, doesn't mean that it won't be Y tomorrow.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Graywalker (May 19, 2021)

I think one of the issues, is people who speak and give advice, have never actually been engaged in a knife fight. 

I see this a lot in the martial art, people training others for life and death situations, who have never been involved in any situation outside of training. But yet somehow believe that their assumed knowledge, is fact.


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## Shatteredzen (May 19, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> I think one of the issues, is people who speak and give advice, have never actually been engaged in a knife fight.
> 
> I see this a lot in the martial art, people training others for life and death situations, who have never been involved in any situation outside of training. But yet somehow believe that their assumed knowledge, is fact.


Which is also how you get the cognitive dissonance that TMA don't work and how BJJ is the only effective martial art, etc.


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## Graywalker (May 19, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Which is also how you get the cognitive dissonance that TMA don't work and how BJJ is the only effective martial art, etc.


Yup, I hear it all the time


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## angelariz (May 23, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Most?  Or maybe "some."
> 
> 
> Except when they don't.
> ...





Rat said:


> How does one actually prepare to deafeat the sewing machine attack?  it sort of presumes ambush and no weapons out.  If someones engaged in that it seems more likely you have been stabbed or cut before you can properly respond.
> 
> Some form of force on force training and how its done is key in practising these though.


You have to work on it.
You have to see what helps.
There are a lot of "techniques " but it comes down to awareness,  equipment,  and skill sets.

Grappling and Vunak's Asymmetric violence in how we train against the sewing machine work.


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## angelariz (May 23, 2021)

There are a lot of responses and that is cool. But I notice on forums people act like there is an us verses them ideology.  I do not care one way or another what people train or how your school trains it.
A' salut
But from my years experience,  much of the dueling training is strictly for footwork and timing practice.  No one believes we are going to get into a fair fight with dueling blades. That is ridiculous.  Most assaults with weapons are ambushes. Not a slap in the face with a glove and a guy saying 'En Gaurde



I'm always a student.
Once in a while, a teacher.


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## lklawson (May 24, 2021)

angelariz said:


> But from my years experience,  much of the dueling training is strictly for footwork and timing practice.  No one believes we are going to get into a fair fight with dueling blades. That is ridiculous.


Except that clearly it still does happen with some degree of frequency. ...as proved above.



angelariz said:


> Most assaults with weapons are ambushes. Not a slap in the face with a glove and a guy saying 'En Gaurde


Maybe but maybe not.  No one seems to have any actual statistics to back up this claim.  Do you?  I mean, I'm not discounting it.  It seems believable, but that doesn't actually count as proof or fact.  It's just something that gets repeated a lot.  And just because lots of people say something doesn't mean it's true.  ...you know, like, "90% of all fights go to the ground."   The 90% Myth Deconstructed

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 24, 2021)

angelariz said:


> You have to work on it.
> You have to see what helps.
> There are a lot of "techniques " but it comes down to awareness,  equipment,  and skill sets.
> 
> Grappling and Vunak's Asymmetric violence in how we train against the sewing machine work.


This seems like its in a similar vein to just "punch them".   Which as far as i can ascertain is part of any good weapon defence system, bind the weapon then just punch the **** out of them.  

Most of the time it boils down to context and the other person messing up.   Like if you watch some shiv works force on force, its throw a distraction in there then secure the weapon and deployed your own.  (they work with the context everyone has a pistol and knife)   I dont really know what would and wouldnt work as testing and the metrics for testing are as important as the thing itself. Along with cons on the testing form. 

Worth noting best ambush defence is seeing it and not walking into it(or counter ambush), so i wish people would acknowledge that and spread that.  You cant win from a ambush usually, it just boils down to just hitting until you die or get out of it.


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## angelariz (May 24, 2021)

Rat said:


> This seems like its in a similar vein to just "punch them".   Which as far as i can ascertain is part of any good weapon defence system, bind the weapon then just punch the **** out of them.
> 
> Most of the time it boils down to context and the other person messing up.   Like if you watch some shiv works force on force, its throw a distraction in there then secure the weapon and deployed your own.  (they work with the context everyone has a pistol and knife)   I dont really know what would and wouldnt work as testing and the metrics for testing are as important as the thing itself. Along with cons on the testing form.
> 
> Worth noting best ambush defence is seeing it and not walking into it(or counter ambush), so i wish people would acknowledge that and spread that.  You cant win from a ambush usually, it just boils down to just hitting until you die or get out of it.


I did used to run the street as an undocumented pharmacist,  I did club and hospital security,  and spent a little time over the years training crowd control scenario drills for years.

Some is skill, some is training. But in the street, awareness and luck go a long way.


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## angelariz (May 24, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Except that clearly it still does happen with some degree of frequency. ...as proved above.
> 
> 
> Maybe but maybe not.  No one seems to have any actual statistics to back up this claim.  Do you?  I mean, I'm not discounting it.  It seems believable, but that doesn't actually count as proof or fact.  It's just something that gets repeated a lot.  And just because lots of people say something doesn't mean it's true.  ...you know, like, "90% of all fights go to the ground."   The 90% Myth Deconstructed
> ...


In the world I grew up in, my anecdotal evidence is enough for me and mine.


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## Graywalker (May 24, 2021)

angelariz said:


> But I notice on forums people act like there is an us verses them ideology. I


You will find, as time goes on, not a lot of people on forums have a whole lot of real world experience.


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## angelariz (May 25, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> You will find, as time goes on, not a lot of people on forums have a whole lot of real world experience.


From the responses i get,  it would seem that a lot of people are buying video downloads and become the wisest and toughest people on the planet.


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## lklawson (May 25, 2021)

angelariz said:


> From the responses i get,  it would seem that a lot of people are buying video downloads and become the wisest and toughest people on the planet.


I just get tired of people making absolutist claims and then arguing about it.  They don't believe anything that disagrees with them so if you can post video of it, then there's irrefutable evidence.  For some reason some people will still reject that irrefutable evidence because it disagrees with what they want to believe; such as "you *are* going to get cut" or "duels never happen."  Even when presented with irrefutable evidence that both statements are not the absolutes being claimed, the people making the statements reject the evidence anyway.

Humans are weird creatures.  They don't  care about evidence, facts, or logic.  They just want to believe what they want to believe.  Critical Thinking is a lost art.  <shrug>


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## Graywalker (May 25, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Critical Thinking is a lost art. <shrug>


Not so much a lost art, as it is trying to rewrite the rules...such as coming up with their own definitions, in order to validate what they believe is truth.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 25, 2021)

lklawson said:


> I just get tired of people making absolutist claims and then arguing about it.  They don't believe anything that disagrees with them so if you can post video of it, then there's irrefutable evidence.  For some reason some people will still reject that irrefutable evidence because it disagrees with what they want to believe; such as "you *are* going to get cut" or "duels never happen."  Even when presented with irrefutable evidence that both statements are not the absolutes being claimed, the people making the statements reject the evidence anyway.
> 
> Humans are weird creatures.  They don't  care about evidence, facts, or logic.  They just want to believe what they want to believe.  Critical Thinking is a lost art.  <shrug>



I am honestly confused at the martial arts community/culture.   It seems to be filled with double standards and duality and uncertainty.  

A great but rambly example.     If we take the question "should i practise at home".   Now you will get a mixture of yes's and no's or ask the teacher etc.    But for the sake of this, the teacher doesnt micromanage you to "grant you permission" to practise it at home so its your own judgement call.  (it is most of the time in reality as well) If you state with any  certainty that you know how to do this enough to practie this at home you would probbly be met by accusations of arrogance.   It just boggles my mind a lot, i think its one of the more fractured communities out there.  (granted each system and style has its own collectively, so its a diverse as there are groups of people doing it or individuals doing it)         In other fields you don tend to have arguments about the basics, say gravity, physicists dont argue if it exists or not anymore, yet something comprable for martial arts would be say punching, people argue a lot about how to punch and the like.  


The only thing i can really suggest is, lay out crtieria, look for ones that meet your criteria the best, if none do, learn how to do your crtieria and do it yourself.    And hope you have the resources and time to do it.


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## Graywalker (May 25, 2021)

Rat said:


> I am honestly confused at the martial arts community/culture.   It seems to be filled with double standards and duality and uncertainty.
> 
> A great but rambly example.     If we take the question "should i practise at home".   Now you will get a mixture of yes's and no's or ask the teacher etc.    But for the sake of this, the teacher doesnt micromanage you to "grant you permission" to practise it at home so its your own judgement call.  (it is most of the time in reality as well) If you state with any  certainty that you know how to do this enough to practie this at home you would probbly be met by accusations of arrogance.   It just boggles my mind a lot, i think its one of the more fractured communities out there.  (granted each system and style has its own collectively, so its a diverse as there are groups of people doing it or individuals doing it)         In other fields you don tend to have arguments about the basics, say gravity, physicists dont argue if it exists or not anymore, yet something comprable for martial arts would be say punching, people argue a lot about how to punch and the like.
> 
> ...


I agree, it's as if people do not understand, that people who created systems... rarely had a teacher themselves.

People tend to forget that folks can figure things out.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 25, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> I agree, it's as if people do not understand, that people who created systems... rarely had a teacher themselves.
> 
> People tend to forget that folks can figure things out.


My viewpoint on that is, all of this started from somewhere, anyone can start this again.  The only issue is, like with other subjects you learn what is known so you dont have to start from scratch and wast time redescovering the known.   Thats the entire point of education, pass down what you know so someone else doesnt start from scratch.    (your not likely to start from scratch now days though, and i dont think you _need_ to or _should_ but you can. )


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## lklawson (May 25, 2021)

Rat said:


> I am honestly confused at the martial arts community/culture.   It seems to be filled with double standards and duality and uncertainty.


You're certainly not wrong about that.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Martial D (May 25, 2021)

angelariz said:


> I started JKD concepts FMA a long time ago. I trained in the basic sets of sinawali and a million combinations of drills. A dozen plus disarms and lots of pie in the sky drills.
> 
> I love the good it brought.
> Movement, grip work, and broken rhythm were top of the list.
> ...


The only reliable knife defence is a gun licence


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## lklawson (May 25, 2021)

Martial D said:


> The only reliable knife defence is a gun licence


You might want to let Ohnimus and that Tueller guy know.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Martial D (May 25, 2021)

lklawson said:


> You might want to let Ohnimus and that Tueller guy know.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


So you think you can draw a knife, run 20 feet and stab someone before they can draw and shoot?

Maybe that was true in 1890 when ohnimus wrote that,when pistols weighed 5 pounds.. but if someone has a gun licence they probably also have enough training to use the thing..and it's likely to be a firearm made in this century.


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## Graywalker (May 25, 2021)

Rat said:


> My viewpoint on that is, all of this started from somewhere, anyone can start this again.  The only issue is, like with other subjects you learn what is known so you dont have to start from scratch and wast time redescovering the known.   Thats the entire point of education, pass down what you know so someone else doesnt start from scratch.    (your not likely to start from scratch now days though, and i dont think you _need_ to or _should_ but you can. )


True, unfortunately education is subjective to those that teach and that is not always a correct teaching.

Personal experience, trial and error, are really the only true educators..imo that is


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## Flying Crane (May 25, 2021)

Rat said:


> I am honestly confused at the martial arts community/culture.   It seems to be filled with double standards and duality and uncertainty.
> 
> A great but rambly example.     If we take the question "should i practise at home".   Now you will get a mixture of yes's and no's or ask the teacher etc.    But for the sake of this, the teacher doesnt micromanage you to "grant you permission" to practise it at home so its your own judgement call.  (it is most of the time in reality as well) If you state with any  certainty that you know how to do this enough to practie this at home you would probbly be met by accusations of arrogance.   It just boggles my mind a lot, i think its one of the more fractured communities out there.  (granted each system and style has its own collectively, so its a diverse as there are groups of people doing it or individuals doing it)         In other fields you don tend to have arguments about the basics, say gravity, physicists dont argue if it exists or not anymore, yet something comprable for martial arts would be say punching, people argue a lot about how to punch and the like.
> 
> ...


Definitely practice outside of class.  Even after your very first lesson.


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## Flying Crane (May 25, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> I agree, it's as if people do not understand, that people who created systems... rarely had a teacher themselves.
> 
> People tend to forget that folks can figure things out.


I doubt that is true.  Martial systems do not spring forth fully formed from a vacuum.  Those who develop a new system always, I suspect, have some form of martial experience upon which they base their new methodology and developments.  I would be shocked if there is any example in history of an effective, comprehensive martial system being developed by someone with no prior training and experience.

And yes, people can figure things out for themselves to an extent.  But likely it will be sloppy and inefficient.  It can be effective to a point, but definitely not optimal.


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## lklawson (May 26, 2021)

Martial D said:


> So you think you can draw a knife, run 20 feet and stab someone before they can draw and shoot?
> 
> Maybe that was true in 1890 when ohnimus wrote that,when pistols weighed 5 pounds.. but if someone has a gun licence they probably also have enough training to use the thing..and it's likely to be a firearm made in this century.


I take it that you 1) just skimmed the article, and 2) decided to ignore the Tueller reference.


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## Martial D (May 26, 2021)

lklawson said:


> I take it that you 1) just skimmed the article, and 2) decided to ignore the Tueller reference.


I see you decided to ignore the entire point of my comment to be contrarian. 
Even if it's theoretically possible to rush someone with a weapon that has a range of 20 yards effectively with a weapon that has a range of 2 feet, that doesn't invalidate the FACT your best chance of not getting stabbed in a knife altercation, besides escape, is a firearm. Nor does it invalidate the fact that Martial Arts knife disarms are most likely going to get you stabbed or killed if you are convinced of their effacy by some charlatan looking to sell you some false peace of mind.


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## lklawson (May 26, 2021)

Martial D said:


> I see you decided to ignore the entire point of my comment to be contrarian.


Nope.  I'm not being contrarian.  I'm pointing out that you are apparently unaware of information which is considered fundamental and basic in the firearms-for-defense community, and has been known for well over a century.  You are recommending a course of action and don't even know one of the basic tenants of the training.  It's akin to recommending karate for fighting but not knowing what a side kick is or telling someone to go learn kendo so they can use "a samurai sword."



Martial D said:


> Even if it's theoretically possible to rush someone with a weapon that has a range of 20 yards effectively with a weapon that has a range of 2 feet,


Even if it's possible?  You're kidding me, right? You are apparently completely unaware of an entire, and very important, body of information and are arguing from a position of ignorance.



Martial D said:


> that doesn't invalidate the FACT your best chance of not getting stabbed in a knife altercation, besides escape, is a firearm.


Except that it isn't a fact.  Heck, I remember when Tueller came out in the mid-80s and some people thought it was new and fresh.  I remember when knife guys like Vunak started doing videos about it.  Heck, even Mythbusters did a segment on it.  The information is positively awash over the internet.  Just look and find it.



Martial D said:


> Nor does it invalidate the fact that Martial Arts knife disarms are most likely going to get you stabbed or killed if you are convinced of their effacy by some charlatan looking to sell you some false peace of mind.


Which has nothing to do with what you were claiming a few posts ago.

The "21 foot rule" is a thing for a reason.  Because there's a lot of truth to it.  If you know what it is, how to train for it, and the correct applications, there are ways that you can improve your odds, but the fact is, if someone is in 20-25 feet from you with a knife and is intent on stabbing you, then you have a big problem and it's one that merely having a gun isn't going to solve for you.

Look, I think that guns are the *premier* personal defense tool.  They are the most effective and efficient, require the least physicality to use, and require the least training for correct and effective use.  I am a Certified handgun and rifle *instructor* and Certified to Expert in bowie knife.  I'm not talking out of my hind-end here.  But guns are also not a magic talisman and thinking that one is going to keep you from getting stabbed by someone who is intent on putting the pointy end in your squishy bits when they're inside of around 25' is, frankly, ignorant.

But hey, don't take my word for it.  Go get some training from a local firearms instructor.  Or at the very least do some research online on how to solve the Tueller Drill.  There's plenty of videos and stuff.


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## Martial D (May 26, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Nope.  I'm not being contrarian.  I'm pointing out that you are apparently unaware of information which is considered fundamental and basic in the firearms-for-defense community, and has been known for well over a century.  You are recommending a course of action and don't even know one of the basic tenants of the training.  It's akin to recommending karate for fighting but not knowing what a side kick is or telling someone to go learn kendo so they can use "a samurai sword."
> 
> 
> Even if it's possible?  You're kidding me, right? You are apparently completely unaware of an entire, and very important, body of information and are arguing from a position of ignorance.
> ...


Maybe you should read what I actually said rather than trying to win a conversation like it was a competition. I said a firearm is your best chance besides escape of not getting stabbed. I didn't say it's a magic pill. Read before you respond.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 26, 2021)

Martial D said:


> So you think you can draw a knife, run 20 feet and stab someone before they can draw and shoot?
> 
> Maybe that was true in 1890 when ohnimus wrote that,when pistols weighed 5 pounds.. but if someone has a gun licence they probably also have enough training to use the thing..and it's likely to be a firearm made in this century.


Its even less true, firearms have become MORE restricted not less.     They wernt that heavy and the pocket pistol concept has existed a lot longer than some people think and calibres for that role have diminished from their prime numbers.    According to wiki the colt navy was about 1KG.  (now exchange the colt navy with a purpose made pocket pistol like a derringer)


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 26, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I doubt that is true.  Martial systems do not spring forth fully formed from a vacuum.  Those who develop a new system always, I suspect, have some form of martial experience upon which they base their new methodology and developments.  I would be shocked if there is any example in history of an effective, comprehensive martial system being developed by someone with no prior training and experience.
> 
> And yes, people can figure things out for themselves to an extent.  But likely it will be sloppy and inefficient.  It can be effective to a point, but definitely not optimal.


I think the oldest english martial arts system doccument was dated at 1100 something, or around that.   So presumption would be had it was doccumenting a system that could (and probbly did ) have existed before that time.       Now they didnt spring out of thin air, but it would be somone who has survived for X peroid time, probbly consulted with people who did it before them and just doccumenting and remmebering what happened and what seems to work.    (now the manuals can be filled with complete toft and be a fraud martial art, as that historical can happen)   There was also more fighting knowledge in the collective knowledge of socity than now, like you would probbly learn how to box and wrestle off your parents, your parents may have in all likelyhood done man hunts or had to fight people, or potetionally had war expereince.     Or somone in your settlement may have or somone passing through could have.  


The ability to figure it out would be trial and error and luck.   nothing says it woud be ineffective or in efficient.    It was after all banned in some places for peasants to learn how to fight so it sort of drove a underground movement for it, and i wouldnt say a criminal martial art or a underground one is default worse.       Oh, need to mention weapons would be dominant as well and it depend if you are talking individual fighting or fighting in a military fashion, that would dictate training.


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## Flying Crane (May 26, 2021)

Rat said:


> I think the oldest english martial arts system doccument was dated at 1100 something, or around that.   So presumption would be had it was doccumenting a system that could (and probbly did ) have existed before that time.       Now they didnt spring out of thin air, but it would be somone who has survived for X peroid time, probbly consulted with people who did it before them and just doccumenting and remmebering what happened and what seems to work.    (now the manuals can be filled with complete toft and be a fraud martial art, as that historical can happen)   There was also more fighting knowledge in the collective knowledge of socity than now, like you would probbly learn how to box and wrestle off your parents, your parents may have in all likelyhood done man hunts or had to fight people, or potetionally had war expereince.     Or somone in your settlement may have or somone passing through could have.
> 
> 
> The ability to figure it out would be trial and error and luck.   nothing says it woud be ineffective or in efficient.    It was after all banned in some places for peasants to learn how to fight so it sort of drove a underground movement for it, and i wouldnt say a criminal martial art or a underground one is default worse.       Oh, need to mention weapons would be dominant as well and it depend if you are talking individual fighting or fighting in a military fashion, that would dictate training.


And so you are agreeing with me:  these fellows would have had training.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 26, 2021)

Re writing a better reply to the above, dont know if there is a delete fucntion or not so i ahd to edit it out like this.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 26, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> And so you are agreeing with me:  these fellows would have had training.


Training?     Yes but not in the way you are thinking.    It would be codified by who ever, or what ever group is making the system/organsiing the fighting.     It would be largely trial and error and based on their belifs and educations and observations.   And given this is far before any recording of meaningful biology, its largely going to be absed on what would be initiatial results.  

It would be from literally nothing or just innate instints and oberservations.  (either by persons in the group, or their parents/families)     They wouldnt have the beenfit of the information age and being able to access a lot of data on biology, a base education in it or being able to access countless texts on martial arts, their history etc.     In comparision, you will never start from scratch in this era unless you dont have access to the internet or good books.   (there are some good ones out there that go into detail on how to do the foundations like punch and form a fist, which i honestly wish i knew about and had)

I wrote about this better in my first post on this tangent honestly, or looking at that would clear up the gaps here.      

Just remember, humans didnt pop into existance, we follow a chain of millisions of years if not more of evolution with all the genetic preprogramming derived from that for better or worse.    The knowledge humans have gained didnt just pop into existance either and follows millions of years of human evolution.


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## jergar (May 26, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Fighting is fighting.  The fundamentals of fighting with a weapon are pretty similar.  You just have to make variances for length, weight, weapon shape, armor, etc.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Hi Kirk , I agree with you the fundamentals are and should be the same as open hand fighting. In my style of king fu the techniques are the same for knife or weapon fighting just like you said allowing for whatever weapon you are using. Makes things a lot easier to learn and use.


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## lklawson (May 26, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Maybe you should read what I actually said rather than trying to win a conversation like it was a competition. I said a firearm is your best chance besides escape of not getting stabbed. I didn't say it's a magic pill. Read before you respond.


Nope. You wrote, "The only reliable knife defence is a gun licence."  And that is, at very best, myopic, and often just flat wrong.  Maybe you should reread what you wrote before you respond.  I wish it were a competition.  That way when you say demonstrably wrong stuff, it doesn't endanger people's lives who take what you write for gospel.


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## lklawson (May 26, 2021)

Rat said:


> I think the oldest english martial arts system doccument was dated at 1100 something, or around that.


Depends on what is meant by "English" and "documented."  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Flying Crane (May 26, 2021)

Rat said:


> Training?     Yes but not in the way you are thinking.    It would be codified by who ever, or what ever group is making the system/organsiing the fighting.     It would be largely trial and error and based on their belifs and educations and observations.   And given this is far before any recording of meaningful biology, its largely going to be absed on what would be initiatial results.
> 
> It would be from literally nothing or just innate instints and oberservations.  (either by persons in the group, or their parents/families)     They wouldnt have the beenfit of the information age and being able to access a lot of data on biology, a base education in it or being able to access countless texts on martial arts, their history etc.     In comparision, you will never start from scratch in this era unless you dont have access to the internet or good books.   (there are some good ones out there that go into detail on how to do the foundations like punch and form a fist, which i honestly wish i knew about and had)
> 
> ...


Ok so it seems to me that what you are saying is, going way way back into Pre-history to the beginnings of the human species, they gradually learned to fight more effectively based on “figuring it out” and then building upon that over the generations, based on experiences with what did or did not work. 

Well of course. 

If you go back and look at what I was responding to, it was the proposal that the founders of martial methods (which I took to imply relatively modern methods: the last several thousand years at least, or since the beginning of at least clan-level human cultures, and I guess maybe my assumption was an error on my part) didn’t have teachers.  That they somehow just came up with a sophisticated methodology on their own without instruction and without prior experience.  Sprung forth fully formed from a vacuum.  That is a proposal that I find unbelievable. 

Please tell me you would not argue with my point.  If you think fellows like Kano and Ueshiba and Funakoshi and Ed Parker and the Gracies and anybody else who founded a methodology that was teachable and spread beyond themselves did so without having prior instruction and experience, then I don’t think it is possible to communicate with you.

Even in the ancient pre-history, you can bet that those generations learned something from their elders and used that as a platform upon which to improve.  You cannot possibly be trying to trace back to the very first individual of our species who balled up his fist and punched somebody, or threw somebody to the ground for the very first time.   That is a ridiculous jumping in point for this discussion.

In the modern era, a fellow can try to “invent” his own methodology without prior instruction and experience.  Sure, he/she can certainly try.  Some things are intuitive, like balling up a fist or trying to trip someone. But this is not founding a methodology.  This is very rudimentary.  It can be effective on some level, but this is not a methodology.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 26, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Depends on what is meant by "English" and "documented."
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Compelte forgot its name, nor if it was (at time of making) the oldest european doccument for martial arts, or just the oldest for Great Britain.    Or if it was just the oldest recorded system, as in a proper system not just a scripture of techniques/one type of weapon/fighting.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 26, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Please tell me you would not argue with my point. If you think fellows like Kano and Ueshiba and Funakoshi and Ed Parker and the Gracies and anybody else who founded a methodology that was teachable and spread beyond themselves did so without having prior instruction and experience, then I don’t think it is possible to communicate with you.





Rat said:


> Thats the entire point of education, pass down what you know so someone else doesnt start from scratch. (your not likely to start from scratch now days though, and i dont think you _need_ to or _should_ but you can. )



My first entry into this tangent was something along those lines, so i dont disagree.      I dont think its ideal to start from scratch, nor would someone in modernity ever truely start from scratch like in pre history.      (unless they live disconnected from all sources of knowledge outside their town)


Got mid way through writing and looked back, turns out i merged this argument and the other argument i have together, so i was not directly replying to the past points.   So i dont know where to go from there.   Just decided to keep the above as its a decent reply and ia ll ready wrote it in case somone else scrolls through here.           So this string is sort of null.


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## Shatteredzen (May 26, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Maybe you should read what I actually said rather than trying to win a conversation like it was a competition. I said a firearm is your best chance besides escape of not getting stabbed. I didn't say it's a magic pill. Read before you respond.


Ok but what about those of us who can't carry? I live in Californistan and my guns only get to leave the house if I am going to the range or hunting. I have had to take away sticks and knives from people and I would rather train something and get cut but be alive than I would just thinking "a gun would be nice right now lol" the next time someone tries to open me up with a blade or broken bottle. 

There are effective martial arts techniques against weapons, even period fencing manuals teach techniques that are better than nothing. Not learning from a charlatan by learning to recognize McDojo's and practical training drills go a long way for parsing good from bad techniques. That being said, I have never been cut taking a blade and I was using my imaginary Aikido which you are convinced doesn't work so your mileage will vary I'm sure.


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## lklawson (May 26, 2021)

Rat said:


> Compelte forgot its name, nor if it was (at time of making) the oldest european doccument for martial arts, or just the oldest for Great Britain.    Or if it was just the oldest recorded system, as in a proper system not just a scripture of techniques/one type of weapon/fighting.


The I.33 codex dates to around late 1200 or so or early 1300.  It's a monk teaching sidesword and buckler to a student.  Not sure about earlier off the top of my head.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 26, 2021)

lklawson said:


> The I.33 codex dates to around late 1200 or so or early 1300.  It's a monk teaching sidesword and buckler to a student.  Not sure about earlier off the top of my head.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



i think thats the one i have in mind, just havent looked into the details or it for a while.


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## Martial D (May 26, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Nope. You wrote, "The only reliable knife defence is a gun licence."  And that is, at very best, myopic, and often just flat wrong.  Maybe you should reread what you wrote before you respond.  I wish it were a competition.  That way when you say demonstrably wrong stuff, it doesn't endanger people's lives who take what you write for gospel.


Yes. Reliable. Maybe there's some number crunch where you can run half way across a football field and stab me before I can squeeze a trigger, but that's not going to happen in reality.  It is miles better than any alternative besides running away.


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## Martial D (May 26, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Ok but what about those of us who can't carry? I live in Californistan and my guns only get to leave the house if I am going to the range or hunting. I have had to take away sticks and knives from people and I would rather train something and get cut but be alive than I would just thinking "a gun would be nice right now lol" the next time someone tries to open me up with a blade or broken bottle.
> 
> There are effective martial arts techniques against weapons, even period fencing manuals teach techniques that are better than nothing. Not learning from a charlatan by learning to recognize McDojo's and practical training drills go a long way for parsing good from bad techniques. That being said, I have never been cut taking a blade and I was using my imaginary Aikido which you are convinced doesn't work so your mileage will vary I'm sure.


Sure buddy.


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## lklawson (May 26, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Yes. Reliable. Maybe there's some number crunch where you can run half way across a football field and stab me before I can squeeze a trigger, but that's not going to happen in reality.


I'm sorry to have to tell you but you are just not speaking from a position of knowledge.   Please, I'm asking you, please go educate yourself on "The Tueller Drill" and the potential solutions for it.



Martial D said:


> It is miles better than any alternative besides running away.


All on its own?  No.  With proper training on how to deal with it, sure; there are ways to make it harder for the knife person to stab you while you're trying to shoot them.  But it's not "try to beat the stab with a draw and a shot on target."  That doesn't work.

Please, I'm begging you, please stop offering advice about stuff you are unfamiliar with.


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## Shatteredzen (May 26, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Sure buddy.


So that's your answer for anyone who can't carry? Very informative. I'm sure the UK members of this forum will be very well served with your astute observation of "just go get a gun". As for my personal anecdotal experience, as funny as you find it, its even funnier on this side of the fence knowing I'm right.


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## Shatteredzen (May 26, 2021)

lklawson said:


> I'm sorry to have to tell you but you are just not speaking from a position of knowledge.   Please, I'm asking you, please go educate yourself on "The Tueller Drill" and the potential solutions for it.
> 
> 
> All on its own?  No.  With proper training on how to deal with it, sure; there are ways to make it harder for the knife person to stab you while you're trying to shoot them.  But it's not "try to beat the stab with a draw and a shot on target."  That doesn't work.
> ...


Martial D is very good at speaking without experience.


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## geezer (May 26, 2021)

lklawson said:


> You might want to let Ohnimus and that Tueller guy know.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


The problem is that a lot of people don't really grasp what that Tueller drill was all about and somehow think it shows the superiority of knives over guns at close range. 

It really has much more to do with the element of surprise and your reaction time when being attacked. If the defender had a sheathed knife instead of a gun, would he be any better off? And suppose you switched the attacker's weapon to a gun? How well could a defender with a sheathed knife defend himself against a surprise attack by an attacker 21 feet away unloading on him with a firearm? 

...Of course you know this stuff Kirk. It's your area of expertise.  But it seems like a lot of casual posters here don't think this stuff through.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 26, 2021)

If we are sort of on disarms, i am curious how keeping your finger out of the trigger guad would impact the practicality of a pistol/firearm disarm.   I wonder if the time taken under stress to put your finger in and fire before the person does their disarm on you would matter.   I dont recall if the testing videos start with the finger in or out of the guard.  And i honestly dont know doctrine for that one because as soon as you mention something thats agaisnt the literal coopers code of gun safety you get 2,000 deibles of complaints your way. 





Shatteredzen said:


> So that's your answer for anyone who can't carry? Very informative. I'm sure the UK members of this forum will be very well served with your astute observation of "just go get a gun". As for my personal anecdotal experience, as funny as you find it, its even funnier on this side of the fence knowing I'm right.


To be fair, thats what drove me to annoyance in the ramsey video on self defence.   You cant even be armed everywhere (even in the U.S), there are valid legal moral and practical blocks to being armed.  This is not counting maybe it malfunctioned, or you ran out of ammunition or lost it.      Ramsey also lives in a place witha  legal block on firearms for self defence usage (as far as i know, not versed on chinese law in that matter)  

Also, unarmed skills are needed to facilitate you drawing your weapon and to also balance the playing field in stopping somone from drawing theirs if you arent armed.   Or diffrent wording, enabling your usage of a weapon and disabiling theirs.   I get the feeling maybe some peopel who enthisise firearms dont understand that you can be in punching distance and need to draw theirs, and its more likely self defence wise to be pretty close to you. 

That was really ranty and maybe not germane to any point but hey ho.


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## Shatteredzen (May 26, 2021)

Rat said:


> If we are sort of on disarms, i am curious how keeping your finger out of the trigger guad would impact the practicality of a pistol/firearm disarm.   I wonder if the time taken under stress to put your finger in and fire before the person does their disarm on you would matter.   I dont recall if the testing videos start with the finger in or out of the guard.  And i honestly dont know doctrine for that one because as soon as you mention something thats agaisnt the literal coopers code of gun safety you get 2,000 deibles of complaints your way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Totally, plus most people aren't going to even understand their local use of force laws or have the requisite martial arts skill to protect that weapon if they are in close quarters. Most of police defensive tactics is split between arrest procedure and weapon retention for a reason. 

A guy in my town just went to jail for defending his pet duck from a neighbors dog by firing a gun in the air, now he is in jail, lost his gun, his duck still got hurt and he's on the news throughout the state getting jokes made about him for something a rolled up newspaper could have handled. The point of that story is that firearm carry requires a whole other set of unique skills as well, its not just draw, point and fire. 

Also, I think the duck story is funny. PS, the duck made it with a broken leg.


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## lklawson (May 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> The problem is that a lot of people don't really grasp what that Tueller drill was all about and somehow think it shows the superiority of knives over guns at close range.
> 
> It really has much more to do with the element of surprise and your reaction time when being attacked. If the defender had a sheathed knife instead of a gun, would he be any better off? And suppose you switched the attacker's weapon to a gun? How well could a defender with a sheathed knife defend himself against a surprise attack by an attacker 21 feet away unloading on him with a firearm?
> 
> ...Of course you know this stuff Kirk. It's your area of expertise.  But it seems like a lot of casual posters here don't think this stuff through.


You are correct, of course.

When Tueller publicized his results, he was trying to snap LEO out of the idea that just because they have a gun doesn't mean they're invincible and that, most importantly, a suspect within a given distance (~21' for him) was still very much a deadly threat.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## angelariz (May 28, 2021)

Martial D said:


> The only reliable knife defence is a gun licence


That is not the subject here. If you want to shoot, then shoot. If you want to carry a firearm, that is excellent if you get trained and keep training in combat shooting. However,  this topic is about a knife. In 48 or so states i can carry my knife. No permit or legal ramifications. Plus a knife has some advantages over a firearm that i won't get into online. But yeah, you could use Gun Fu.


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## angelariz (May 28, 2021)

Rat said:


> I am honestly confused at the martial arts community/culture.   It seems to be filled with double standards and duality and uncertainty.
> 
> A great but rambly example.     If we take the question "should i practise at home".   Now you will get a mixture of yes's and no's or ask the teacher etc.    But for the sake of this, the teacher doesnt micromanage you to "grant you permission" to practise it at home so its your own judgement call.  (it is most of the time in reality as well) If you state with any  certainty that you know how to do this enough to practie this at home you would probbly be met by accusations of arrogance.   It just boggles my mind a lot, i think its one of the more fractured communities out there.  (granted each system and style has its own collectively, so its a diverse as there are groups of people doing it or individuals doing it)         In other fields you don tend to have arguments about the basics, say gravity, physicists dont argue if it exists or not anymore, yet something comprable for martial arts would be say punching, people argue a lot about how to punch and the like.
> 
> ...


I dont look to communities to test what I do and I dont look at trends to make my judgment.  I have  teachers. Teachers that set a standard and people in that group have to achieve and exceed the standards. All of this verbose arguing is pointless. These guys often go to their Shaolin Kempo Holy Temple and tell everyone else how ignorant they are. 
Hahaha

It doesnt affect the rest of us. I've put in work. My training and my ability, and now age have all shaped how I absorb and retain material and skill sets. 

I know people want to come online and pretend they are the wisest toughest of us all and will teach everyone the truth. 

The rest of us are training and working on preserving what we have learned that works for us.  
Not what we think works. But what actually works.


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## angelariz (May 28, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> I agree, it's as if people do not understand, that people who created systems... rarely had a teacher themselves.
> 
> People tend to forget that folks can figure things out.


Bruce Lee had many teachers.
IP  Man,, WSL, Joon Rhee, Judo Gene, many others.
Guro Dan had many teachers over the decades too many to list.

So as it pertains to JKD or Edged Weapons,  the teachers were there from the beginning when one man hit another with a stone and learned how well using a rock works in self defense.  Hahaha 😈


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## RagingBull (May 28, 2021)

I think the best knife techniques i have seen were from escrima/Kali. not an expert on it as i have only experienced Latosa escrima but definetly the best systems out there for me at least.


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## RagingBull (May 28, 2021)




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## Martial D (May 28, 2021)

angelariz said:


> That is not the subject here. If you want to shoot, then shoot. If you want to carry a firearm, that is excellent if you get trained and keep training in combat shooting. However,  this topic is about a knife. In 48 or so states i can carry my knife. No permit or legal ramifications. Plus a knife has some advantages over a firearm that i won't get into online. But yeah, you could use Gun Fu.


Sure. You can bring a knife against a knife, or try some movie-fu empty hand disarm or whatever.

And probably walk away bleeding if you walk away at all.


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## RagingBull (May 28, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Sure. You can bring a knife against a knife, or try some movie-fu empty hand disarm or whatever.
> 
> And probably walk away bleeding if you walk away at all.


some use macheties now. you have no chance but atleast in escrims/Kali you train with them too & a knife so maybe..maybe you can learn something that might save your ***. however i agree with you.


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## angelariz (Aug 18, 2021)

We can calm down the need to make definitive statements. This is all just conversation at the end of the day. 
How deadly is a gun? Should I expect to get shot every time i get shot at? 
I know for a fact that the few times I was shot at, I was never hit. Luck? Fate? Skill ? Or great exit plan? It doesn't matter.
You may get cut. You may get shot.

What system/method do you train to avoid getting cut in an assault?


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## oneoftheherd80 (Sep 6, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> I understand the need for accepting the possibility of getting cut when confronting a knife.  The question is how much possibility of that is there?  You state it is fairly low.  I tend to think the opposite, but then, I don't have the statistics or practical experience in a real knife fight, so I'll approach this with an open mind.
> 
> The answer, no doubt, is situation dependent.  Please consider the following situations as to risk of the defender getting cut.
> 
> ...



I have never  been in a knife fight and hope I never am.  But I have trained in several knife attack defenses.  None of them contemplate that I would be cut.  Realistically I would be foolish not expect that as a possibility.  That was when I was younger and in better shape.  Now I am not.  But to fully answer your question,  some of the defenses would have injured, sometimes seriously, some would have probably killed.


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## geezer (Sep 18, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> I think the best knife techniques i have seen were from escrima/Kali. not an expert on it as i have only experienced Latosa escrima but definetly the best systems out there for me at least.


You know, I don't think Latosa Escrima is a _system_ ....anymore.

Way back in the 80s and 90s it was a "system" ....complete with curriculum and ranking system. Called PMAS (Philippine Martial Arts Society) Escrima. I was actually certified to teach that.

The EWTO guys with Bill Newman integrated a lot of HEMA stuff and have a system with a ranked curriculum, but one that has strayed a long way from Rene's stuff.

And I guess Emin still teaches Latosa Escrima Concepts, broken down into his own EBMAS curriculum and ranking system... but I haven't had any contact with EBMAS in over a decade. My loss.... He's a super talented guy.

But it strikes me that Rene is more and more about _core concepts _that can translate into any practical fighting art, fighting sport (boxing or MMA), or self-defense.

BTW ...Rene Latosa was my first Escrima Coach. Now I'm not exactly talented ...far from it. But If anything I do actually works, it's because of what I got from him.


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## geezer (Sep 18, 2021)

Here's A recent video of GM Rene ...I think you can see what I meant:


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## Instructor (Sep 22, 2021)

I have a conceal carry permit and should carry all the time but I don't.  I've never found a combination of firearm/holster that is as fast and comfortable as simply slipping my Benchmade Nakamura into the little watch pocket of my jeans. Day to day times i've needed my gun... so far = zero.  Day to day times I've needed my knife (for doing routine knife things) = beyond counting. I know the gun is better for defense and I should carry it but I seldom do.


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