# Long Form 1 Video Comments Please



## seninoniwashi (Aug 19, 2007)

Hiya all, I was searching around for a good few videos to help my daughter with Long form 1 and came across this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eZh_F2Ii0WI

Has anyone else seen this out there? What do you think about a higher ranking belt performing Long form 1 like this? What do you all think of how the blocks are executed, primarily the inward and downward?


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## MJS (Aug 19, 2007)

seninoniwashi said:


> Hiya all, I was searching around for a good few videos to help my daughter with Long form 1 and came across this:
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=eZh_F2Ii0WI
> 
> Has anyone else seen this out there? What do you think about a higher ranking belt performing Long form 1 like this? What do you all think of how the blocks are executed, primarily the inward and downward?


 
Take a look at this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DtuNgNMy4jk&mode=related&search=

Long 1 is the second form thats performed here.  Amy is rolling 3 forms together in this clip, however, watch how she does long 1.  Do you see differences?

Mike


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## seninoniwashi (Aug 19, 2007)

MJS said:


> Take a look at this:
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=DtuNgNMy4jk&mode=related&search=
> 
> Long 1 is the second form thats performed here. Amy is rolling 3 forms together in this clip, however, watch how she does long 1. Do you see differences?
> ...


 
Thanks for the link - That was the way I learned long 1 as well. The blocks are solid and anchored. Definitely a difference.

As for the video I initially posted, what was your opinion of the way it was performed? Did you see anything wrong with the blocks?


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## michaeledward (Aug 19, 2007)

seninoniwashi, I see many things executed differently from the way that I learned to execute them. 

I would not describe what I see as 'wrong', because I am not familiar with the Tracy training. I might suggest that some of the things that I see do not look effective. But, I don't think I would want to go further than that based only on this video.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 19, 2007)

I study Tracys kenpo, and this rendition seems quite different from how I have learned it.  Some basic concepts and elements look to be missing, but without having a chance to discuss it with the guy doing it, I don't know what he has in mind, so I'll give that benefit of the doubt.  But at least initially, I'd say it needs a good deal of work before I'd consider it to be well done.


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## Blindside (Aug 19, 2007)

I've seen a tendency in some Tracy folks to extend their motion.  This seems to be a particularly exaggerated version of this, feedback from some Tracy folks might be helpful.  I'd like to know what training purpose that exageration might serve.

Lamont


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2007)

seninoniwashi said:


> Thanks for the link - That was the way I learned long 1 as well. The blocks are solid and anchored. Definitely a difference.
> 
> As for the video I initially posted, what was your opinion of the way it was performed? Did you see anything wrong with the blocks?


 
Its very possible that this is how his instructor has the students do the kata.  When doing the downward blocks, to me it looked like there was alot of over extension.  When I do an inward block, I don't extend my arm out like he was doing.  

Its like I always say about a technique.  You can have 5 people do the same technique and you're bound to see 5 slight variations.  Does this mean they're wrong?  No, just a variation.  

When I perform kata, I keep the blocks more anchored.

I know we have other Tracy people on here, so it would be great to hear from them as well. 

Mike


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## tigdra (Aug 20, 2007)

For the first video that was posted ... I have to say that it looks as if either the student is a poor student or as if the teacher is a poor teacher. 

They pattern in which the student performed the form is similar to the version of long one that I learned (I mean with a few adjustments) but that is not what I am trying to critique. The basic foundation of kenpo is not aparent with this student. The blocks are executed poorly; take his upward blocks, the way I learned to do an upwards block was by first doing an uppercut palm facing me and then twisting the wrist outwards (there is more to it than jus this but I am giving a basic run down on how I was taught) 

The individual in this video has his arm bent at the waist level an merely raises his arm up, there is no snap to his block. aside from that there are many flaws in executing an upwards block in that fashion. Additionally a lot of his blocks are performed in such a matter that if performed against an individual could hurt the practitioner. 

Man I hope this student was just  being lazy cause it really sucks when teachers allow their students to have such bad habbits


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## Seabrook (Aug 20, 2007)

Amy's form was much more crisp, and her blocks were tighter. Also, Amy's punches were to the center, and she employed the double factor appropriately, whereas the first form performed by the man did not.


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## Jim Hanna (Aug 20, 2007)

That's an old video of Trevor. It had been up on the San Jose site and Trevor got alittle beat up (like his squeegee upward blocks) He took it in good stride and in humility.

He seems like the kind of guy that will keep practicing and getting better and better.

My version of long 1 looks quite different, although the pattern is certainly the same. 

Jim


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## Flying Crane (Aug 20, 2007)

Thanks, Jim, all we can do is keep working at it.

I don't like the idea of posting videos myself regardless, but in all honesty I would have been even more reluctant to do so prior to retraining with Ted Sumner.  I know I have a better grasp of them than I did prior, but it takes guts and a thick skin to put them up.

This is really why I think posting videos is often not a good idea.  The video is just a single moment in time, and may not represent the best that someone can do.  But it gets set into history, everyone looks at it, and makes judgements based on it and that is what is remembered.  Nevermind that he may have drastically improved in the mean time.


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## seninoniwashi (Aug 21, 2007)

Thanks for your input everyone! I saw the video and just couldn't help getting your opinions and thoughts. Seeing the video it seemed as though it was a completely different style of kenpo being demonstrated - the same movements with different principles. My knowledge of the Tracy faction is VERY limited so I wasn&#8217;t sure if this was proper representation.


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## seninoniwashi (Aug 21, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> This is really why I think posting videos is often not a good idea. The video is just a single moment in time, and may not represent the best that someone can do. But it gets set into history, everyone looks at it, and makes judgements based on it and that is what is remembered. Nevermind that he may have drastically improved in the mean time.


 
I agree, I think the guy that posted the video is a very brave guy

Putting yourself out there for that split few moments of captured video is unfair for judgement. I have had stuff like that come back and bite me.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 21, 2007)

seninoniwashi said:


> Hiya all, I was searching around for a good few videos to help my daughter with Long form 1 and came across this:
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=eZh_F2Ii0WI
> 
> Has anyone else seen this out there? What do you think about a higher ranking belt performing Long form 1 like this? What do you all think of how the blocks are executed, primarily the inward and downward?


Not bad, just primitive. Ed Parker once said, "too much refinement too soon equals to little progress"
Sean


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## Wingman (Sep 5, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> This is really why I think posting videos is often not a good idea.  The video is just a single moment in time, and may not represent the best that someone can do.  But it gets set into history, everyone looks at it, and makes judgements based on it and that is what is remembered.  Nevermind that he may have drastically improved in the mean time.



That is exactly the reason why I believe if you're going to film yourself you had best bring your A game. Sure, there is always room for improvement, but, and maybe this is just based on the way I was taught kenpo, and specifically how long 1 is supposed to look. 

Theres a difference between improving post-release of the video, and filming yourself doing the form sloppy (once again, this is assuming the 'ideal' long 1 I see in my mind and try to preform is the same goal he was attempting to achieve). 

For one, I see no reason to extend the inward and outward blocks so far, there is very little power in such an extension.

I also see no reason for pushdown blocks and downward blocks to begin as high as they did in this example. Why would a block for a low line strike begin at or above your head, when your hands are already on the low line?

I'm borderline bashing here, but I'm merely making a point that theres nothing wrong with putting yourself into a video. Just make sure you're actually doing what you're saying you're doing, correctly, before ever releasing footage.


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## Wingman (Sep 5, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> This is really why I think posting videos is often not a good idea.  The video is just a single moment in time, and may not represent the best that someone can do.  But it gets set into history, everyone looks at it, and makes judgements based on it and that is what is remembered.  Nevermind that he may have drastically improved in the mean time.



That is exactly the reason why I believe if you're going to film yourself you had best bring your A game. Sure, there is always room for improvement, but, and maybe this is just based on the way I was taught kenpo, and specifically how long 1 is supposed to look. 

Theres a difference between improving post-release of the video, and filming yourself doing the form sloppy (once again, this is assuming the 'ideal' long 1 I see in my mind and try to preform is the same goal he was attempting to achieve). 

For one, I see no reason to extend the inward and outward blocks so far, there is very little power in such an extension.

I also see no reason for pushdown blocks and downward blocks to begin as high as they did in this example. Why would a block for a low line strike begin at or above your head, when your hands are already on the low line?

I'm borderline bashing here, but I'm merely making a point that theres nothing wrong with putting yourself into a video. Just make sure you're actually doing what you're saying you're doing, correctly, before ever releasing footage.


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## Jim Hanna (Sep 5, 2007)

One reason for a downward block and a push down to originate from a high position is to cover any possible low fakes.  There are also timing and coordination issues involved.

When I practice this form I generate my downward blocks from the inward block position (circular, of course).  When I execute the push downs I come all the way through the centerline, covering everything--makes sense to me and instinctually feels right.

Its a matter of personal philosophy.  I know that many may disagree, but many also agree.

Jim


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## KenpoDave (Sep 5, 2007)

Jim Hanna said:


> One reason for a downward block and a push down to originate from a high position is to cover any possible low fakes. There are also timing and coordination issues involved.
> 
> When I practice this form I generate my downward blocks from the inward block position (circular, of course). When I execute the push downs I come all the way through the centerline, covering everything--makes sense to me and instinctually feels right.
> 
> ...


 
I agree.  I also believe in practicing the full range of motion during a form.  A downward block is the opposite motion of an outward.  One ends where the other begins.  In the kata, there is no attack, so assuming that one is blocking a low line attack is not correct.


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## Jim Hanna (Sep 6, 2007)

KenpoDave said:


> I agree. I also believe in practicing the full range of motion during a form. A downward block is the opposite motion of an outward. One ends where the other begins. In the kata, there is no attack, so assuming that one is blocking a low line attack is not correct.


 
One lesson that I have learned from attending large seminars like the GOE is that some masters do things differently from others. Each has his or her own reason. My reasons are sometimes based upon what feels right to me based upon my experience and developed instincts.

Poet Ralph Hodgson said it best for me:

"Reason has moons"

"Reason has moons, but moons not hers
Lie mirror'd on her sea,
Confounding her astronomers,
But, O! delighting me."

BTW Dave, I tried to e mail you a couple of times and the postmaster can't deliver it for some reason.

Jim


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## seninoniwashi (Sep 6, 2007)

Jim Hanna said:


> One lesson that I have learned from attending large seminars like the GOE is that some masters do things differently from others. Each has his or her own reason. My reasons are sometimes based upon what feels right to me based upon my experience and developed instincts.


 
Agreed! I try not to judge - however sometimes there are things we see that are so incredibly different you have to share to get everyone else's thoughts so you know where you yourself stand


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## kidswarrior (Sep 12, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> seninoniwashi, I see many things executed differently from the way that I learned to execute them.
> 
> I would not describe what I see as 'wrong', because I am not familiar with the Tracy training.


Nor am I. I do know that in San Soo, we do forms much differently than we do practice. Forms are deliberately more exaggerated (flowery, as one of my teachers says), as for example what we call a down windmill block in a form covers the whole front of the body, while in partner practice, it may be a very small circle--just enough to trap/block the incoming. This video shows something similar, so it occurs to me this gent may be doing the form in the manner he was taught, but would modify the moves for real application.


> I might suggest that some of the things that I see do not look effective. But, I don't think I would want to go further than that based only on this video.


A reasonable response. Hard to tell what would be effective in the heat of battle just from this form. I will say the overhead blocks sometimes don't clear the top of the head, and the downward palm blocks (sorry, don't know the Tracy/EPAK name) would seem to redirect the attack right into ones own groin.

But all in all, as some have said, I wouldn't judge someone's practice off of one 'snapshot' like this.


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## Christina05 (Sep 19, 2007)

I found this long form with extensions check it out


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 20, 2007)

Christina05 said:


> I found this long form with extensions check it out


 I'm not so happy with the forward bows, but this is closer to  what I recognize as Long 1.
Sean


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## michaeledward (Sep 20, 2007)

Christina05 said:


> I found this long form with extensions check it out


 

Thank you, Sean, for commenting. 

This certainly looks much closer to what I recognize as Long Form 1, as well. 

But, further, I see many things that merit 'correction'; aspects of the form that I do not believe are open to interpretation or lineage variation, aspects that are, in fact, incorrect. 

My best hope is that if I am ever captured on video, outside of a training lesson, that the performance of my body matches the performance in my mind. However, I think that is, at best, a long shot.


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## Christina05 (Sep 20, 2007)

There are so many videos and almost all of them have some type of variation.It seems like they were either all taught a different way or they miss calculated the technique. Just my opinion


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 21, 2007)

Christina05 said:


> There are so many videos and almost all of them have some type of variation.It seems like they were either all taught a different way or they miss calculated the technique. Just my opinion


Exactly! Every instructor teaches his concerns and experiences to their students at what ever level the student can handle. Given different body types and the personal experiences of the student, it is a given we won't see what we want to see when watching others do our beloved forms. I heared some where recently that a test tells you just as much about the tester as it does the tested; so, I think, specific comments are good to see wheather they are bad or good.
Sean


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## Christina05 (Sep 21, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Exactly! Every instructor teaches his concerns and experiences to their students at what ever level the student can handle. Given different body types and the personal experiences of the student, it is a given we won't see what we want to see when watching others do our beloved forms. I heared some where recently that a test tells you just as much about the tester as it does the tested; so, I think, specific comments are good to see wheather they are bad or good.
> Sean




I agree. After all its only constructive criticism


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## Goldendragon7 (Jan 8, 2008)

seninoniwashi said:


> Hiya all, I was searching around for a good few videos to help my daughter with Long form 1 and came across this:
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=eZh_F2Ii0WI
> 
> Has anyone else seen this out there? What do you think about a higher ranking belt performing Long form 1 like this? What do you all think of how the blocks are executed, primarily the inward and downward?



Like Sean stated earlier... very primitive or poorly understood.  He certainly "knows OF" the form but did not demonstrate "knowing" the form and surely doesn't "Understand" the form.

:yoda:


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## hongkongfooey (Feb 17, 2008)

I've watched a lot of Kenpo on line. Why does everyone always do their forms so fast? There is a difference between flowing and speeding. Almost everyone tries to fly through the forms like their *** is on fire, making the form look like garbage. Watch a few more renditions of long 1. Watch the isolation moves at the end. Every video I have watched is the same, speeding right along until they come to the push downs, then it's so so slow, then BAM!, it's back to light speed for the punches. Why? Why not do the form with proper mechanics and meaning from the beginning?


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## donald (Feb 19, 2008)

I thought the demo of the form application was pretty kewl. Although I was taught that the palm presses were defenses against knees to the groin. Again I thought it was...

1stJohn1:9


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## marlon (Feb 19, 2008)

MJS said:


> Take a look at this:
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=DtuNgNMy4jk&mode=related&search=
> 
> Long 1 is the second form thats performed here. Amy is rolling 3 forms together in this clip, however, watch how she does long 1. Do you see differences?
> ...


 
in the first form there is a lot of arm movement without center movement/ waist.  Is this the norm with this form?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Christina05 (Feb 20, 2008)

That is the hard part about video posting but I must say if your going to post it make sure to bring your A game to the table. And make sure you can eat all the criticism that come your way for posting your footage because there will be a million and one people telling you how you executed the technique poorly. ( In most cases anyways)


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## ChadWarner (Feb 20, 2008)

marlon said:


> in the first form there is a lot of arm movement without center movement/ waist. Is this the norm with this form?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


There should be some noticeable waist movement (and there is some) but I think the timing is a bit off so it runs together with other movement giving the form a blocky or square appearance.  It also seemed a little rushed which tends to cause the principles or laws to be overrun by body momemtum.  When that happens movement stops and has to be restarted, the by product is mechanical looking movement.  

That's why the rule in Kenpo is 1000 times slow for one time fast.  All those slow repititions help you feel things... it takes time and a lot of patience and also developes focus.  

hope this helped some


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Feb 20, 2008)

hongkongfooey said:


> I've watched a lot of Kenpo on line. Why does everyone always do their forms so fast? There is a difference between flowing and speeding. Almost everyone tries to fly through the forms like their *** is on fire, making the form look like garbage. Watch a few more renditions of long 1. Watch the isolation moves at the end. Every video I have watched is the same, speeding right along until they come to the push downs, then it's so so slow, then BAM!, it's back to light speed for the punches. Why? Why not do the form with proper mechanics and meaning from the beginning?


 
You almost sound like Max.


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## KenpoDave (Feb 20, 2008)

I agree.  Speedy is not better.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 20, 2008)

KenpoDave said:


> I agree. Speedy is not better.


If you do it slow you can't possibly be doing it right.
Sean


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## Baphomet (Apr 25, 2008)

The video posted by the original poster looks very similar to a form I learned several years ago, though I can't remember if it was known as Long 1, or something different.  As mentioned in the posts previous to my own, the practicioner's movements seem to be far too extended to be worthwhile.  From my experience, you can generate far more power while still maintaining control when keeping your arms closer to your body.

Previous posters also mentioned the fact that the practicioner appeared to be moving far too quickly, and I would have to agree.  When I practiced this form, I was told to hold each stance for a minimum of 10 to 15 seconds, which made for a very long kata.  However, I feel as though I am better for it, and after practicing the same kata hundreds of times, I have come to enjoy the sense of physical strength that comes with it.


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