# Should Off Duty Officers Carry Guns In Bars?



## MJS (Dec 6, 2010)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40531693/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/




> BALTIMORE  Off-duty police officer Gahiji Tshamba was enjoying a summer evening in a historic neighborhood known for its nightlife when he encountered trouble around closing time. He was carrying his department-issued, semiautomatic Glock handgun  unfortunately, as it turned out.
> 
> After he left the Red Maple nightclub around 1:30 a.m., Tshamba saw a man groping a woman and confronted him, starting a heated argument. The officer eventually drew his gun and emptied the clip, firing 13 shots  12 of which struck and killed Tyrone Brown, an unarmed Iraq war veteran. The June 5 shooting resulted in a murder charge for Tshamba.


 
Thought this was an interesting article.  Looking forward to hearing from the LEOs here.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 6, 2010)

MJS said:


> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40531693/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
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 13 is excessive, even for a police officer. A normal person only gets to pull the trigger once or twice. Perhaps being intoxicated and having carrying a firearm should be against the law, but if the Bar wasn't overserving, there wouldn't have been a groping or a shooting. Police officers should be able to handle a weapon anywhere, provided thay aren't breaking the law to begin with.
sean


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## LuckyKBoxer (Dec 7, 2010)

I believe all honest people who want to have some control of their own safety should in fact train regularly, and carry a gun everywhere they go period. Law enforcement or not.


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## Archangel M (Dec 7, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> 13 is excessive, even for a police officer. A normal person only gets to pull the trigger once or twice.



********. The typical tripe spouted by people clueless about the dynamics of gunfights. A close brother to "shoot to wound..hit them in the leg or something". You shoot till the threat is no longer a threat, regardless of the number of rounds. Even if it means loading another magazine. The real issue is the justification for firing even one shot. Sounds like someone has seen too many movies where one shot is almost always immediately fatal.


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## punisher73 (Dec 7, 2010)

For us, departmental policy prohibits us from carrying in a bar.  It, however, does not entirely prohibit from carrying in places that serve alcohol and have bars in them like Applebees, etc.

Alcohol and guns don't mix.  If you have even one drink and have to use your firearm, you are facing a huge liability when defense attornies start putting seeds of doubt into people's minds about how many drinks you actually had and how impaired you might have been.

I don't drink, but I also only choose places that are very well regulated and cater to a slightly older crowd.  I have never felt the need to have it with me while I was IN the bar due to safety reasons.  I choose to not go to places that are meat markets and people are there for the sole purpose of hooking up etc.  Those places usually have a lot more trouble that I try to avoid.


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## rlobrecht (Dec 7, 2010)

I have an acquaintance who works for Houston PD.  As I understand it from him, they have a 0.0% BAC limit for carrying.

Texas has concealed handgun licensing, and although the statue isn't clear (i.e. it says something like intoxicated) every instructor I've had says that most LEO's treat it as 0.0%.

I agree guns and alcohol don't mix.

Rick


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## Archangel M (Dec 7, 2010)

punisher73 said:


> For us, departmental policy prohibits us from carrying in a bar. It, however, does not entirely prohibit from carrying in places that serve alcohol and have bars in them like Applebees, etc.
> 
> Alcohol and guns don't mix. If you have even one drink and have to use your firearm, you are facing a huge liability when defense attornies start putting seeds of doubt into people's minds about how many drinks you actually had and how impaired you might have been.
> 
> I don't drink, but I also only choose places that are very well regulated and cater to a slightly older crowd. I have never felt the need to have it with me while I was IN the bar due to safety reasons. I choose to not go to places that are meat markets and people are there for the sole purpose of hooking up etc. Those places usually have a lot more trouble that I try to avoid.


 
I agree. Just because I am going to have a drink or two doesn't mean I am no longer allowed to defend myself. Or that a shoot becomes "bad" purely because of my BAC. Intoxication is not a defense for criminal activity, therefore I don't think that it automatically precludes being legally within your rights to carry. However, I am 100% with you about the issue of what sort of environment you are taking that gun into. If you knowingly are going into an environment where you know the risk of confrontation fueled by booze is high...for your own pleasure/entertainment..THAT issue is what you will need to face vs the possession of the weapon in and of itself.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 7, 2010)

Alcohol isn't a magic talisman.  The same criteria should apply for carrying and impairment no matter what that impairment is.  If you plan on getting drunk or even pretty tipsy, you should leave it at home.  Better yet, drink at home with your friends - it's cheaper and the company is better!  If your judgment is sound however, I don't see any reason why not.   The alcohol won't force it's way down your throat and make you do dumb things with firearms.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 7, 2010)

punisher73 said:


> For us, departmental policy prohibits us from carrying in a bar. It, however, does not entirely prohibit from carrying in places that serve alcohol and have bars in them like Applebees, etc.
> 
> Alcohol and guns don't mix. If you have even one drink and have to use your firearm, you are facing a huge liability when defense attornies start putting seeds of doubt into people's minds about how many drinks you actually had and how impaired you might have been.
> 
> I don't drink, but I also only choose places that are very well regulated and cater to a slightly older crowd. I have never felt the need to have it with me while I was IN the bar due to safety reasons. I choose to not go to places that are meat markets and people are there for the sole purpose of hooking up etc. Those places usually have a lot more trouble that I try to avoid.


 
Wise advice!!!


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 7, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> ********. The typical tripe spouted by people clueless about the dynamics of gunfights. A close brother to "shoot to wound..hit them in the leg or something". You shoot till the threat is no longer a threat, regardless of the number of rounds. Even if it means loading another magazine. The real issue is the justification for firing even one shot. Sounds like someone has seen too many movies where one shot is almost always immediately fatal.


You may call this tripe, but it is what they teach in criminal justice courses. Gunfight dynamics aside, you get to end the threat only. There are lots of people who are sitting in prison that lost site of that concept. Tripe as it may sound.
Sean


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## KenpoTex (Dec 7, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> You may call this tripe, but it is what they teach in criminal justice courses. Gunfight dynamics aside, you get to end the threat only. There are lots of people who are sitting in prison that lost site of that concept. Tripe as it may sound.
> Sean



What exactly is it that they teach?   You said yourself that _"you get to end the threat only."  

_In a shooting, you shoot until the threat is stopped...whether you have to fire 2 rounds or 20 rounds to accomplish that is irrelevant.  The only time the number of rounds fired is excessive is when that number exceeds what is necessary to stop the threat.

The old joke does have some truth to it...
"Why'd you shoot him 15 times?"
"Because 14 wasn't enough and 16 would have been too many."


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 7, 2010)

KenpoTex said:


> What exactly is it that they teach? You said yourself that _"you get to end the threat only." _
> 
> In a shooting, you shoot until the threat is stopped...whether you have to fire 2 rounds or 20 rounds to accomplish that is irrelevant. The only time the number of rounds fired is excessive is when that number exceeds what is necessary to stop the threat.
> 
> ...


You got me. LOL By all means shoot until the clip is empty. Just carry breath mints and get a good lawyer.
Sean


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## jks9199 (Dec 7, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> You got me. LOL By all means shoot until the clip is empty. Just carry breath mints and get a good lawyer.
> Sean


Reality check:

In a typical self-defense shooting -- and police shootings are the most common and the ones we have the most information about -- it's not at all uncommon for the shooter to fire their gun dry, and not remember or even realize how many times they've pulled the trigger.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 7, 2010)

MJS said:


> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40531693/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
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I believe that officers should be allowed to carry off duty. 

I believe that they can go into bars and have a night of drinking. 

I believe that since I cannot walk into a bar with a firearm this is disadvantage and infringement of my rights. But I see the current public understanding. 

Yet I believe that officers should be held to same standards as I am. i.e. no alcohol while carrying a firearm. 


So if the officer wants to go out and be armed then no alcohol. Alcohol can be present just not consumed. He is an officer and some priviledge can be granted given his position and occupation. 

But if the officer drinks he should not have his firearm. Why? Because I cannot not. Same rules should apply in that case in my opinion.


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## Archangel M (Dec 7, 2010)

Except that officers are allowed to do may things that others are not, for example I get to carry a weapon concealed without having to get a permit like everybody else. I can purchase a handgun "on my badge" unlike everybody else too. It's because the law says I can. It's easy to say "If I can't he shouldn't", but what it boils down to is what does the law...either statute or case law...say? And in some states, the issue of carry in a bar is typically a matter of the bar owner disallowing them, not an actual law. In others the law allows carry in a bar but disallows alcohol consumption.

Lesson? Know your local laws.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 7, 2010)

*I think we would all agree that alcohol and driving just does not work out to well!*  I simply do not think that any of us will argue that people should be allowed to drink and drive.  Firearms and alcohol is similar the two just do not mix well!  That being said I am all for LEO's and firearm owners with valid cpl/ccw permits being able to go into a restaurant that serves alcohol and get a meal minus the alcohol!  Some states allow this and others do not so lesson *number one* know your local laws and to stay out of trouble adhere to them!  *Fools put themselves in poor positions.*  Whether you are an LEO or a private citizen if you are mixing alcohol and carrying a firearm then you probably will get what you deserve in the end!


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## MJS (Dec 7, 2010)

I'd say it'd depend on the rules of the dept.  The State Police in CT are technically on duty 24/7, one of the reasons being, that they take home their cars and can use them for personal use, however, I believe they're still supposed to take any action/enforcement even if off duty, thus many carry.  

As for the number of shots fired...well, I'll defer to the LEOs here, but AFAIK, its center mass, and shoot until the thread is no more.  That being said, the entire clip doesnt sound excessive.  Of course, I doubt every LEO is an expert marksman, therefore, I'd also say its not unreasonable, circumstances depending, to have multiple officers fire numerous shots.  To the average joe, of course that's going to sound excessive.  But, does the average Joe know about the day to day duties of a LEO or are they just talking out of their ***?  9 times out of 10, I'd say its the latter. LOL. 

Should they carry in a bar?  I'll refer back to dept. policy and overall good old fashion common sense.


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## Archangel M (Dec 7, 2010)

There is the issue of "drinking while carrying" VS "being drunk while carrying". You can still legally drive with a BAC below your states legal limit. The issue here is one of common sense and good judgement rather than a black n white/right n wrong issue of carrying inside a drinking establishment. If there is justification to shoot there is justification regardless of your BAC. Your intoxication could/probably will cause you difficulties in the aftermath, but better to be alive.

The bottom line, dont carry if you plan on "whooping it up", be the designated driver, or avoid trouble spots like bars frequented by drunk rowdies.


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## billc (Dec 7, 2010)

Good post.  Interesting thoughts.


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## seasoned (Dec 7, 2010)

*Should Off Duty Officers Carry Guns In Bars?* Yes, as long as they don't drink alcohol. Designated drivers don't drink, they drive people around that do. If an off duty cop is out with the guys, and kicking back a few, leave the fire power at home. If he is out with the family and having a drink or two while carrying, he is showing a bad example to the kids. Appearance of impropriety, comes to mind.


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## Hudson69 (Dec 8, 2010)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I believe all honest people who want to have some control of their own safety should in fact train regularly, and carry a gun everywhere they go period. Law enforcement or not.



I pretty much agree to this and as an LEO I carry wherever I go; except the Airport because the TSA are the tools of evil:shrug:.

The emphasis here is training but to go with that requires common sense.  As an LEO I have carried into bars and nightclubs but I do not partake at those times.  Anyone who carries concealed needs to do so within the constraints of the law and use their brain.  If you are going to drink don't carry (Murphy's Law says that this will be the time you need a gun but had you not carried it then Murphy would not have shown up).

If you want to CCW then do it but do it smart.


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## Archangel M (Dec 8, 2010)

If I'm carrying at the restaurant w/ the family, one beer with dinner isn't going to result in me fighting with the guy in the next booth and firing wildly into the crowd of nuns waiting for a seat. 

Going out for a night of pub crawling with the boys? Well thats a different story. Yeah I shouldn't be armed, but at my age and position even partaking of the activity would be ill advised.


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## jks9199 (Dec 8, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> If I'm carrying at the restaurant w/ the family, one beer with dinner isn't going to result in me fighting with the guy in the next booth and firing wildly into the crowd of nuns waiting for a seat.
> 
> Going out for a night of pub crawling with the boys? Well thats a different story. Yeah I shouldn't be armed, but at my age and position even partaking of the activity would be ill advised.


I'm much the same way.  I may (occasionally) have a beer or cocktail or a glass of wine with dinner.  If I'm expecting to do much more than that -- I'll secure the gun.  But one or two drinks over a couple of hours?  Nah... 

The real issue is simple responsibility.  These cases show irresponsible behavior, and I'd bet that there are other examples of irresponsibility in these people's lives.


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## Archangel M (Dec 8, 2010)

> the real issue is simple responsibility. These cases show irresponsible behavior, and i'd bet that there are other examples of irresponsibility in these people's lives.



+1


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 8, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> You may call this tripe, but it is what they teach in criminal justice courses. Gunfight dynamics aside, you get to end the threat only. There are lots of people who are sitting in prison that lost site of that concept. Tripe as it may sound.
> Sean


 
Name one person who was otherwise justified in shooting someone, who went to prison because they fired one round too many.

As for 'criminal justice courses' it kind of depends on who's teaching them........if it's an academic who's closest experience is what he read in a couple of journals, he's barely fit to discuss the issue, much less proclaim himself 'an expert'.  

A 'criminal justice' degree is not a degree on use of force.  A criminal justice degree means one has completed course material on a general and broad overview of the concept and theory of criminal justice.  

Study of physical conflict dynamics is a whole specialized area of study.

In short, you'd be hardpressed to find someone who got in trouble for shooting someone 'too much'.  Shooting them when not justified, yes.......shooting them 9 times when a jury thought that 8 would have done it?  Not so much.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 8, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> If I'm carrying at the restaurant w/ the family, one beer with dinner isn't going to result in me fighting with the guy in the next booth and firing wildly into the crowd of nuns waiting for a seat.
> 
> Going out for a night of pub crawling with the boys? Well thats a different story. Yeah I shouldn't be armed, but at my age and position even partaking of the activity would be ill advised.


 
Exactly.........I won't carry a gun if i'm going to drink a few.........that's what a knife is for.


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## Mark Jordan (Dec 8, 2010)

Anyone carrying a gun should not be allowed inside a bar.  Alcohol blurs judgment and it could lead to unwarranted aggression.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 9, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Exactly.........I won't carry a gun if i'm going to drink a few.........that's what a knife is for.


 
That was my point, if Alcohol effects me it should also effect an officer. if it is bad for me as it effect my judgement then so should it be bad for an officer. I agree one usually would not be an issue, (* Unless some medical issue or never been introduced to alcohol before *) but if the law says it is not right for me to mix alcohol and firearms, it should also work the same with an officer. 

I support the officer having the priviledge to carry where others cannot.
I just think if they carry they also have the responsibility to stay sober and clean of drugs as well.


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## Archangel M (Dec 9, 2010)

Im with the common sense argument. There are all sorts of substances out there that "could" impair judgement. Alcohol, perscriptions, over the counter medications, etc. If I have a cold and take a cold medication does that mean I can't carry? If I have one beer at dinner while out with the wife for dinner am I "setting a bad example"? I think the issue is one of common sense..my examples above I wouldn't make an issue about. An officer out drinking all night..or taking prescription meds that can "knock you out" are another matter. Just like driving. Me having one beer at a restaurant isnt going to be an issue with my driving home and I don't think thats a "bad example"...5-6 beers? Another story.


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## jks9199 (Dec 9, 2010)

One other thing...  If you're carrying concealed -- nobody should know you're armed, so having one or two beers in a responsible manner shouldn't be a problem, especially as far as "setting an example."


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## Kurai (Dec 9, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> 13 is excessive, even for a police officer. A normal person only gets to pull the trigger once or twice. Perhaps being intoxicated and having carrying a firearm should be against the law, but if the Bar wasn't overserving, there wouldn't have been a groping or a shooting. Police officers should be able to handle a weapon anywhere, provided thay aren't breaking the law to begin with.
> sean



If people were more responsible with their alcohol intake, there likely wouldn't have been a groping or a shooting.  I'm fine with an officer carrying in a bar.  I don't frequent bars (do my drinking at home), but would hope that common sense prevails.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 30, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> 13 is excessive, even for a police officer. A normal person only gets to pull the trigger once or twice. Perhaps being intoxicated and having carrying a firearm should be against the law, but if the Bar wasn't overserving, there wouldn't have been a groping or a shooting. Police officers should be able to handle a weapon anywhere, provided thay aren't breaking the law to begin with.
> sean


 
I was in a shooting 5 years ago. A suspect puleld a gun on me. I fired 5 shots with a 40cal Glock. it took five shots center mass before the guy even drop the gun. Then after he dropped it he looked at me turned around and walked from his kitchen to his living room before he fell and died. Shooting is not like the movies you dont shoot someone and they go flying thru the air. If he had not dropped the gun I would have kept shooting until he did if it took 10 shots or 15 shots. At autopsy all 5 rounds were found in his heart and it was shredded. So to say1 or 2 shots is all you need is just an uneducated view point.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 30, 2010)

punisher73 said:


> For us, departmental policy prohibits us from carrying in a bar. It, however, does not entirely prohibit from carrying in places that serve alcohol and have bars in them like Applebees, etc.
> 
> Alcohol and guns don't mix. If you have even one drink and have to use your firearm, you are facing a huge liability when defense attornies start putting seeds of doubt into people's minds about how many drinks you actually had and how impaired you might have been.


 
How do your undercover narcs like that policy?
Ive worked undercover now for the last 3 years I dress and look like a hard core biker and I go into bars and have to drink to fit in and I ALWAYS have a gun on me someplace.  I dont get drunk but I buy alot of beers but ill sip on them dump them out in the bath rooms, set them down and walk away and buy a new one so it looks like Im drinking alot.  Things like that but I do drink.  Were allowed to drink 2 beers per hour while working an undercover capasity.
Off duty I dont go out much to bars I choose to stay home with my family but if I do go out I feel Im smart enough to know not to get blasted drunk so I ALWAY have a gun on me then too.


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## punisher73 (Dec 31, 2010)

ballen0351 said:


> How do your undercover narcs like that policy?
> Ive worked undercover now for the last 3 years I dress and look like a hard core biker and I go into bars and have to drink to fit in and I ALWAYS have a gun on me someplace. I dont get drunk but I buy alot of beers but ill sip on them dump them out in the bath rooms, set them down and walk away and buy a new one so it looks like Im drinking alot. Things like that but I do drink. Were allowed to drink 2 beers per hour while working an undercover capasity.
> Off duty I dont go out much to bars I choose to stay home with my family but if I do go out I feel Im smart enough to know not to get blasted drunk so I ALWAY have a gun on me then too.


 
We are a small enough department that we dont' have our own UC team.  We do assign an officer to a joint team under the state police.  I've never asked them about their policy, but to my knowledge of my friends that have been on the team they are armed at all times due to the danger.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 31, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> ********. The typical tripe spouted by people clueless about the dynamics of gunfights. A close brother to "shoot to wound..hit them in the leg or something". You shoot till the threat is no longer a threat, regardless of the number of rounds. Even if it means loading another magazine. The real issue is the justification for firing even one shot. Sounds like someone has seen too many movies where one shot is almost always immediately fatal.



Hey! It is for dirty harry!
And Chuck Norris would just toss a bullet in the air and roundhouse kick the bullet through the other guys chest, and anyone who happened to stand behind him.. So there!

But more seriously, I am a novice whenit comes to guns, but even I can see the sense in your words. Recently a policeman over here shot a guy armed with a BB gun. If you've seen them, you know how realistic they look. The only different is a red dot on the barrel, but in les than ideal circumstances, that is hard to spot.

The guy got flak because he was supposed to have seen that it was a toy, AND because he 'should have shot him in the leg'. Drivel like that. I guess he should have waited until shots were fired at him, and then shot him in the leg while hoping that would make him stop shooting.

Whatever.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2010)

punisher73 said:


> We are a small enough department that we dont' have our own UC team. We do assign an officer to a joint team under the state police. I've never asked them about their policy, but to my knowledge of my friends that have been on the team they are armed at all times due to the danger.


 
Ive been there too I started out in a small 75 man department myself.  Ive moved on to bigger department for better pay but I had some of the best times in the saller department you really learn to rely on yourself.


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## Doc (Sep 13, 2022)

Touch Of Death said:


> 13 is excessive, even for a police officer. A normal person only gets to pull the trigger once or twice. Perhaps being intoxicated and having carrying a firearm should be against the law, but if the Bar wasn't overserving, there wouldn't have been a groping or a shooting. Police officers should be able to handle a weapon anywhere, provided thay aren't breaking the law to begin with.
> sean


Excessive is something that is determined by the circumstances. There is no such thing as "unarmed" in any confrontation where there is a firearm present that has the potential to be controlled by either party. Furthermore, more people are killed by "unarmed" people with hands and feet than are stabbed to death in the U.S. Police are taught to fire until the threat is neutralized. Additionally, most police miss at a very high rate. I've seen suspects take multiple hits and keep on shooting. I had a suspect take a shotgun blast to the chest, go down and get up running away shooting, only to die a block away after he bled out and the adrenalin was gone. The press usually defaults to "how many shots were fired," not how many times a suspect is hit. Anyway, under duress, a person doesn't know how many shots they have fired. Without knowing ALL the circumstances it is not prudent to cast judgment. The policy should be to decide whether you want to drink or carry a gun, but not both no matter where you are for civilians and police alike.


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## Steve (Sep 14, 2022)

Since this was necro'd, in my opinion many police officers shouldn't be carrying guns while on duty, much less off duty where it is otherwise prohibited.  There's no reasonable justification for all police to carry weapons everywhere.  

I've shared the accuracy reports that @Doc mentions above several times.  To say that cops miss their target at an alarming rate is, if anything, an understatement.


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## Martlet (Sep 14, 2022)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I believe all honest people who want to have some control of their own safety should in fact train regularly, and carry a gun everywhere they go period. Law enforcement or not.


This.  Bingo


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## drop bear (Sep 14, 2022)

So do bouncers get guns to deal with all these drunks who have guns?


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## Martlet (Sep 14, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So do bouncers get guns to deal with all these drunks who have guns?





drop bear said:


> So do bouncers get guns to deal with all these drunks who have guns?



That's up to the private business owner.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So do bouncers get guns to deal with all these drunks who have guns?


Your mileage may vary, but where I live, consuming alcohol invalidates your carry permit. You drink, you leave the gun behind. Very simple. And no doubt a good thing, from my friends position. Because they always know I'll be the designated driver.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 14, 2022)

Interesting


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## drop bear (Sep 14, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Your mileage may vary, but where I live, consuming alcohol invalidates your carry permit. You drink, you leave the gun behind. Very simple. And no doubt a good thing, from my friends position. Because they always know I'll be the designated driver.



Wait. They still let you in the pub. You just promise not to drink?


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## Steve (Sep 14, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Wait. They still let you in the pub. You just promise not to drink?


I don’t live in Colorado.  But I think it’s even more subjective.  You can carry as long as you aren’t under the influence.


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## drop bear (Sep 15, 2022)

Steve said:


> I don’t live in Colorado.  But I think it’s even more subjective.  You can carry as long as you aren’t under the influence.



Lol.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 15, 2022)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I believe all honest people who want to have some control of their own safety should in fact train regularly, and carry a gun everywhere they go period. Law enforcement or not.


The wild West? What kind of society are you living in when you feel the need to pack a piece when going to a bar or dinner?
Are all gun owners responsible people Maybe after a few drinks ?


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## Martlet (Sep 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> The wild West? What kind of society are you living in when you feel the need to pack a piece when going to a bar or dinner?
> Are all gun owners responsible people Maybe after a few drinks ?



Are all drivers?   There is a line.  That line is different among people.  It’s probably much higher with gun owners because you can be passed that line and leave your gun in the holster.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 15, 2022)

Martlet said:


> Are all drivers?   There is a line.  That line is different among people.  It’s probably much higher with gun owners because you can be passed that line and leave your gun in the holster.


Well it's like young guys running around with a blade, if zhey get into a fight they'll probably use it. I'm sure there's a lot of guys in the US ended up in jail because of a moments madness.
Only police on duty should carry & not off duty. Civilians shouldn't be allowed to walk around in Bars.. etc with a gun. Absolutely ridiculous but I'm from Europe so you probably won't agree with my opinions


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 15, 2022)

I will just add that I'm not anti-guns. I mean having one at home for protecting your family I understand just not walking around gun-ho like John wayne.


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## Steve (Sep 15, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Lol.


I'll let other more gun centric posters correct me if I'm wrong.  But reading the Colorado rules, it seems like a sort of thing that they determine after the fact.  "You shot someone... hey, have you been drinking?  I think you might be under the influence."


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## Martlet (Sep 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Well it's like young guys running around with a blade, if zhey get into a fight they'll probably use it. I'm sure there's a lot of guys in the US ended up in jail because of a moments madness.
> Only police on duty should carry & not off duty. Civilians shouldn't be allowed to walk around in Bars.. etc with a gun. Absolutely ridiculous but I'm from Europe so you probably won't agree with my opinions



Your beliefs don’t align with the constitution and beliefs of the United States.  Fortunately, I live in a land that mostly values my liberty.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 15, 2022)

Martlet said:


> , I live in a land that mostly values my liberty.


I live in a Land that values human life


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## Steve (Sep 15, 2022)

Martlet said:


> Your beliefs don’t align with the constitution and beliefs of the United States.  Fortunately, I live in a land that mostly values my liberty.


that’s not actually true. But unfortunately to explain it to you would be deemed political. 

So suffice to say, there is room for discussion about the idea that regulation of guns and restrictions are unconstitutional and also on the idea that your beliefs are the official, sanctioned beliefs of the USA.  I don’t believe you’re right on either count.


----------



## Buka (Sep 15, 2022)

Let's make this thread completely political so it can be locked by the administration.

Either that or put on some tall boots because it's getting quite deep in this thread.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I have a few Glazer in 38sp, are they still around? Problem is for revolver, it's ok, I don't have to test it. But for semi auto, It's really EXPENSIVE to proof it is reliable for the gun!!! Look 200 rounds!!!
> 
> I just look at MagSafe, the profile of the nose is not too bad, it should not have problem like the CCI Blazer JHP 45. That one is like an ashtray.


I believe they are both still available. Both the Glazer and MagSafe rounds are available in a rounded tip that is closer to hardball than to JHP.


drop bear said:


> Wait. They still let you in the pub. You just promise not to drink?


How would they stop me? The whole point of concealed carry is that it's, you know, concealed.


Steve said:


> I don’t live in Colorado.  But I think it’s even more subjective.  You can carry as long as you aren’t under the influence.


The law in Colorado does not define a BAC for being under the influence. Intoxicated is defined as 0.080. Under the influence means any positive result. So very simple. If I carry, I have zero alcohol. Seems reasonable. If I'm going to carry a firearm, I do not want anything affecting my judgement.


Jimmythebull said:


> Well it's like young guys running around with a blade, if zhey get into a fight they'll probably use it. I'm sure there's a lot of guys in the US ended up in jail because of a moments madness.


Nonsense. I carried a knife pretty much every day growing up. Still do. Never used it in a fight. I did trim hangnails with it though.



Jimmythebull said:


> I will just add that I'm not anti-guns. I mean having one at home for protecting your family I understand just not walking around gun-ho like John wayne.


So your home is the only place where you need/are allowed to protect yourself? How very sad.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 16, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I believe they are both still available. Both the Glazer and MagSafe rounds are available in a rounded tip that is closer to hardball than to JHP.
> 
> How would they stop me? The whole point of concealed carry is that it's, you know, concealed.
> 
> ...


I think it's sad that you need to walk around with a gun.
As for the knife..c'mon you know what I'm saying.  Where I grew up young guys carried kitchen knifes easily available from any Store obviously not for "trim hangnails" whatever that is. Surely you can't be so naive?


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I think it's sad that you need to walk around with a gun.


That's nice. And I agree. It would be nice if nobody ever wanted to hurt anyone. But the reality of the world is that there are monsters out there, and the only person who can protect you is you.


Jimmythebull said:


> As for the knife..c'mon you know what I'm saying.


No. We don't. We know what you wrote. If you want people to know what you mean, it's incumbent upon you to *write what you mean*. 


Jimmythebull said:


> Where I grew up young guys carried kitchen knifes easily available from any Store obviously not for "trim hangnails" whatever that is. Surely you can't be so naive?


There's nothing naive about it. I have carried a knife since I was maybe 7-8 years old. Pretty much every single day. Still do. I've used it to trim a hangnail, open boxes, open mail, trim/strip wires, cut seatbelts and clothing, whittle, clean game... lots of things. But I've never attacked anyone with it.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 16, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No. We don't. We know what you wrote. If you want people to know what you mean, it's incumbent upon you to *write what you mean*.


No not "we"..I think "you" didn't get it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I think it's sad that you need to walk around with a gun.
> As for the knife..c'mon you know what I'm saying.  Where I grew up young guys carried kitchen knifes easily available from any Store obviously not for "trim hangnails" whatever that is. Surely you can't be so naive?


Wait a sec, didn’t you say you were from a land where they value human life? What were the kitchen knives for?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I live in a Land that values human life


Surely you can’t be that naive?


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 16, 2022)

How did this place deteriorate into Facebook level drama?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 16, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> How did this place deteriorate into Facebook level drama?


Isn’t that what we do here?


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## Buka (Sep 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I live in a Land that values human life


I think that's great. Where do you live, Jimmy? And what art(s) do you train in?


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 16, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Wait a sec, didn’t you say you were from a land where they value human life? What were the kitchen knives for?


Someone was saying they carry a knife & never use it other than for odd jobs but carries a gun & would probably see it differently & use it for self defense. 
I don't see how carrying a knife is any different. My point is if you carry any weapon you'll probably use it.


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## Buka (Sep 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Someone was saying they carry a knife & never use it other than for odd jobs but carries a gun & would probably see it differently & use it for self defense.
> I don't see how carrying a knife is any different. My point is if you carry any weapon you'll probably use it.


I've been carrying a weapon for over forty years, both a firearm and a knife. (job requirements) Haven't used one yet.

I guess I must be due.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 16, 2022)

Buka said:


> I've been carrying a weapon for over forty years, both a firearm and a knife. (job requirements) Haven't used one yet.
> 
> I guess I must be due.


Well then sounds like outside of the Dojo you've never been in a life threatening situation. 
Be happy my man.


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## Buka (Sep 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Well then sounds like outside of the Dojo you've never been in a life threatening situation.
> Be happy my man.



I wish that were the case, but no, been in a few in Law Enforcement, and a few more in personal life. A few rather scary.

But other than bitching on this forum lately, (apologies to everyone) I'm usually happy, but thanks, man.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 16, 2022)

Meanwhile in Dublin


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Someone was saying they carry a knife & never use it other than for odd jobs but carries a gun & would probably see it differently & use it for self defense.
> I don't see how carrying a knife is any different. My point is if you carry any weapon you'll probably use it.




I have been in situations where I was too busy dealing with multiple opponents to be able to clear and deploy a knife, even it in a pocket. 
And when I could get to it and have time, the threat was no longer there. 

Technology on knives has changed and I like the Wave by Emerson for a single motion retrieve, deploy and open. 


So it is not always used.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 16, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> I have been in situations where I was too busy dealing with multiple opponents to be able to clear and deploy a knife, even it in a pocket.
> And when I could get to it and have time, the threat was no longer there.
> 
> Technology on knives has changed and I like the Wave by Emerson for a single motion retrieve, deploy and open.
> ...


Don't need to open a Steak knife or a Machete


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 16, 2022)

Kids with knives & Machete


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Don't need to open a Steak knife or a Machete



True, And or screw-drive , and yet open carrying one in many locations even in the worst cities in the US can get you stopped ASAP. 

I have been over lots of places / continents, by myself and with others, and able to keep the bad guys at a distance with respect and acknowledgement. 

Even a fixed blade in a sheath on the belt usually has a button clip first.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Kids with knives & Machete



Your videos are age restricted and I never created an account on that site


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 16, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Your videos are age restricted and I never created an account on that site


Easy to pull out. Easy to buy in any Store.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 16, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> True, And or screw-drive , and yet open carrying one in many locations even in the worst cities in the US can get you stopped ASAP.
> 
> I have been over lots of places / continents, by myself and with others, and able to keep the bad guys at a distance with respect and acknowledgement.
> 
> Even a fixed blade in a sheath on the belt usually has a button clip first.


A kitchen knife will be probably  carried with the blade protected by newspaper.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> A kitchen knife will be probably  carried with the blade protected by newspaper.



It can, and pretty much anything in their hand I consider a weapon, and observe.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Someone was saying they carry a knife & never use it other than for odd jobs but carries a gun & would probably see it differently & use it for self defense.
> I don't see how carrying a knife is any different. My point is if you carry any weapon you'll probably use it.


But that is not correct. I have carried a knife pretty much every day of my life and have never used it in a fight. I have carried a gun for at least 30 years, and I have never used it. My wife has carried for the past 10 years. Never used it. My mother carried a gun her entire LEO career. Never used it. Two of her brothers were also cops. One did shoot a guy, after the bad guy fired at him. That brother had a son who followed him as a LEO. Never used his gun. One of our sons and a son-in-law are cops. One of them shot a murder suspect who came out of a house trailer with a shotgun. Four of our non-LEO kids also carry. Never used them. 

So two out of twelve in my immediate family, both wholly justified.  There are 500,000 people in Colorado with concealed carry permits. There are over 20 million people in the US with concealed carry permits. 

The number of violent crimes committed by CCW holders is miniscule. A study done by the "Violence Policy Center" (an anti-gun organization) collected a bunch of data. They identified 1,335 gun fatalities involving a CCW holder. After eliminating the deaths in which a CCW permit was irrelevant (such as suicide or crimes in their own home - both of which are terrible things, but neither has any bearing on CCW permits) they were left with 801 fatalities involving CCW holders that were determined not to qualify as self-defense. 801. That is all. Oh, did I mention that the data covered a *fifteen year* time span?

It's not looking good for your claims...


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> A kitchen knife will be probably  carried with the blade protected by newspaper.


Seems an odd choice to me. It would take a *lot* of newspaper to keep my blades from cutting me. I guess I'll stick with my Benchmade or Microtech OTF knives.


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## Buka (Sep 16, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Seems an odd choice to me. It would take a *lot* of newspaper to keep my blades from cutting me. I guess I'll stick with my Benchmade or Microtech OTF knives.


I don't know about you, DD, but if someone pulls a kitchen knife like that on me - you know what they say, "Everybody has to be doing something when they die. If they want to be displaying large cutlery in a threatening manner, I guess that's their choice."

I refuse to be chopped liver.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 16, 2022)

Law enforcement officers should be encouraged to carry their weapon when off duty. The article is from MSLSD, of cause they pull out one case that we don't even know whether it's justified. How about crimes that off duty officers prevent by using their weapon?

This is political.

hell, it's a lot safer and effective than private citizens carrying guns because they are not trained.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 17, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> But that is not correct. I have carried a knife pretty much every day of my life and have never used it in a fight. I have carried a gun for at least 30 years, and I have never used it. My wife has carried for the past 10 years. Never used it. My mother carried a gun her entire LEO career. Never used it. Two of her brothers were also cops. One did shoot a guy, after the bad guy fired at him. That brother had a son who followed him as a LEO. Never used his gun. One of our sons and a son-in-law are cops. One of them shot a murder suspect who came out of a house trailer with a shotgun. Four of our non-LEO kids also carry. Never used them.
> 
> So two out of twelve in my immediate family, both wholly justified.  There are 500,000 people in Colorado with concealed carry permits. There are over 20 million people in the US with concealed carry permits.
> 
> ...


Just your opinions. So are you claiming all gun owners are responsible? Sorry but I don't buy that.





						Higher rates of mass shootings in US states with more relaxed gun control laws | BMJ
					

Widening gap in deaths emerging between these states and those with more restrictive laws US states with more relaxed gun control laws and higher rates of gun ownership have higher rates of mass shootings, reveals a time trends analysis, published today in The BMJ. And the gap in the rate of...




					www.bmj.com


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## Alan0354 (Sep 17, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Higher rates of mass shootings in US states with more relaxed gun control laws | BMJ
> 
> 
> Widening gap in deaths emerging between these states and those with more restrictive laws US states with more relaxed gun control laws and higher rates of gun ownership have higher rates of mass shootings, reveals a time trends analysis, published today in The BMJ. And the gap in the rate of...
> ...


I look at Wikipedia, seems like mass shooting happened all over, NY, ILL and Ca that have very straight gun control have plenty of their share.
List of mass shootings in the United States - Wikipedia

Remember mass shooting is only very small number compare to everyday shooting,  NYC, Chicago, Baltimore and most of the big cities with very straight gun control have very high gun killing numbers. Have you add up all the death from mass shooting and compare to all the death from shooting in those cities with straight gun control?

Be careful what you read as this is a very political issue. You have articles from both sides. You have to be objective and see through all the smoke.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 17, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> careful what you read as this is a very political issue. You have to be objective.


I'm not bringing politics into anything.  I don't care about US politics. I'm saying the facts are there doesn't matter how you spin it. 
Enough gun-ho cops in the USA with massive egos too. If someone is aggressive & carries a gun in public they'll probably pull it regardless who started the argument.  If a large number of citizens are walking around with guns in public it stands to reason that not all incidents will be "self defense ".


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 17, 2022)

Check out this nice old boy. This is exactly my point. Too easy to pull out a gun.


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## drop bear (Sep 17, 2022)

Using a gun under the influence is as irresponsible as driving under the influence. Cop, no cop whatever. I don't care how many times someone either hasn't crashed or hasn't shot someone.

If you carry a gun it should be taken seriously.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 17, 2022)

I'm just discovering the "unwatch" feather. Hopefully it works and I stop getting notifications for this thread.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 17, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Just your opinions. So are you claiming all gun owners are responsible? Sorry but I don't buy that.


Data from law enforcement records is "just [my] opinions"?


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## Steve (Sep 17, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Using a gun under the influence is as irresponsible as driving under the influence. Cop, no cop whatever. I don't care how many times someone either hasn't crashed or hasn't shot someone.
> 
> If you carry a gun it should be taken seriously.


Cops do “emphasis patrols” for DUI. Would be great if they’d do emphasis patrols for guns in bars too.


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## seasoned (Sep 17, 2022)

Steve said:


> Cops do “emphasis patrols” for DUI. Would be great if they’d do emphasis patrols for guns in bars too.


Probable cause comes to mind with traffic stops........plus guns in bars "stop and frisk".... is old news.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 17, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Data from law enforcement records is "just [my] opinions"?


Which law enforcement records?
Be more specific? Your area or are you talking Nation wide.
You were giving yourself & family members as an example. Doesn't speak for millions of gun owners.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 18, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Which law enforcement records?
> Be more specific? Your area or are you talking Nation wide.
> You were giving yourself & family members as an example. Doesn't speak for millions of gun owners.


Did you actually read what I wrote? Here. I'll include it again:


> The number of violent crimes committed by CCW holders is miniscule. A study done by the "Violence Policy Center" (an anti-gun organization) collected a bunch of data. They identified 1,335 gun fatalities involving a CCW holder. After eliminating the deaths in which a CCW permit was irrelevant (such as suicide or crimes in their own home - both of which are terrible things, but neither has any bearing on CCW permits) they were left with 801 fatalities involving CCW holders that were determined not to qualify as self-defense. 801. That is all. Oh, did I mention that the data covered a *fifteen year* time span?


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 18, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Did you actually read what I wrote? Here. I'll include it again:


I've moved on it's getting boring to be honest.


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## jks9199 (Sep 18, 2022)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Several posts in this thread have been removed because Staff has identified them as a political.  

If you wish to discuss politics, we refer you to our sister site, US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum.

jks9199
MT Administrator


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## drop bear (Sep 19, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Did you actually read what I wrote? Here. I'll include it again:



Is there a link to this study?


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Is there a link to this study?


There's studies all over the Internet it's just ex cops cherry picking & one member squeeling ( no pun intended 🙂)because it obviously doesn't suit his thread & ideology.


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## Steve (Sep 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Is there a link to this study?


I couldn’t find a study that said what he was saying.  But I found one that seems close, concluding that it is exceedingly rare for guns to be helpful jn a self defense situation, based on available, supplemental FBI data.  

 Dirty Dog seemed to confirm this earlier as he was recounting how many of his family members carry guns everywhere but never use them outside of being a cop. 



			https://vpc.org/studies/justifiable18.pdf


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## Martlet (Sep 19, 2022)

Steve said:


> I couldn’t find a study that said what he was saying.  But I found one that seems close, concluding that it is exceedingly rare for guns to be helpful jn a self defense situation, based on available, supplemental FBI data.
> 
> Dirty Dog seemed to confirm this earlier as he was recounting how many of his family members carry guns everywhere but never use them outside of being a cop.
> 
> ...



That makes sense, because at the end of the day most law-abiding citizens aren’t in situations where they need to apply force to defend themselves.   It doesn’t matter if they are armed or not.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Is there a link to this study?


Google has it. 


Steve said:


> I couldn’t find a study that said what he was saying.  But I found one that seems close, concluding that it is exceedingly rare for guns to be helpful jn a self defense situation, based on available, supplemental FBI data.


That is not at all what it shows. What it shows is that CCW holders rarely need to fire their weapon. 

HERE is a report, using data from the CDC (most definitely not a pro-gun group) that shows handguns being used for self defense hundreds of thousands times each year. The number of those uses that actually requires the weapon to be fired is miniscule. Which means that the gun was used successfully, without needing to cause harm. Perfect outcome.


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## drop bear (Sep 19, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Google has it.



I googled it. And it doesn't say what you are saying.


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## drop bear (Sep 19, 2022)

Steve said:


> I couldn’t find a study that said what he was saying.  But I found one that seems close, concluding that it is exceedingly rare for guns to be helpful jn a self defense situation, based on available, supplemental FBI data.
> 
> Dirty Dog seemed to confirm this earlier as he was recounting how many of his family members carry guns everywhere but never use them outside of being a cop.
> 
> ...



I think it might originally be this.








						VPC: Concealed Carry Killers
					





					concealedcarrykillers.org
				




Which is nothing like DD was suggesting.


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## Steve (Sep 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I think it might originally be this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Someone was saying they carry a knife & never use it other than for odd jobs but carries a gun & would probably see it differently & use it for self defense.
> I don't see how carrying a knife is any different. My point is if you carry any weapon you'll probably use it.


I carry both knife and gun. I haven’t had to use either one as a weapon.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 20, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I carry both knife and gun. I haven’t had to use either one as a weapon.


then you´ve never been in a life threatening situation or are cool hand luke.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I'm not bringing politics into anything.  I don't care about US politics. I'm saying the facts are there doesn't matter how you spin it.
> Enough gun-ho cops in the USA with massive egos too. If someone is aggressive & carries a gun in public they'll probably pull it regardless who started the argument.  If a large number of citizens are walking around with guns in public it stands to reason that not all incidents will be "self defense ".


Nonsense. Pulling out your gun is a crime known as brandishing. Do that once and your permit to carry will be revoked. All this is explained in the training. The only people that brandish are the ones that are carrying illegally. Those folks are the reason that people get a permit in the first place.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> then you´ve never been in a life threatening situation or are cool hand luke.


Neither of those things are true, no matter your imaginations.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 20, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Nonsense. Pulling out your gun is a crime known as brandishing. Do that once and your permit to carry will be revoked. All this is explained in the training.


hmm... all very good in the theory.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Check out this nice old boy. This is exactly my point. Too easy to pull out a gun.





drop bear said:


> Using a gun under the influence is as irresponsible as driving under the influence. Cop, no cop whatever. I don't care how many times someone either hasn't crashed or hasn't shot someone.
> 
> If you carry a gun it should be taken seriously.


I totally agree with this statement.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Steve said:


> Cops do “emphasis patrols” for DUI. Would be great if they’d do emphasis patrols for guns in bars too.


Stop and frisk? I think they used to do that in NYC.


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## Martlet (Sep 20, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Nonsense. Pulling out your gun is a crime known as brandishing. Do that once and your permit to carry will be revoked. All this is explained in the training. The only people that brandish are the ones that are carrying illegally. Those folks are the reason that people get a permit in the first place.


That’s not true at all.  Only if you live in areas that don’t respect the constitution.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Martlet said:


> That’s not true at all.  Only if you live in areas that don’t respect the constitution.


Which part? Brandishing is a crime.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Martlet said:


> That’s not true at all.  Only if you live in areas that don’t respect the constitution.


Respectfully, that is about half of the USA.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Martlet said:


> That’s not true at all.  Only if you live in areas that don’t respect the constitution.


I don’t think you should give legal advice without doing some research. It’s a crime in Texas, florida, Ohio, Missouri, Louisiana, California…


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## Martlet (Sep 20, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Which part? Brandishing is a crime.


Brandishing, as used in a legal sense, may be a crime.  However, pulling a firearm isn't by itself the criminal act of brandishing, as implied in the post.


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## Martlet (Sep 20, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I don’t think you should give legal advice without doing some research. It’s a crime in Texas, florida, Ohio, Missouri, Louisiana, California…



I'm on solid ground.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Martlet said:


> Brandishing, as used in a legal sense, may be a crime.  However, pulling a firearm isn't by itself the criminal act of brandishing, as implied in the post.


Ok maybe we are splitting hairs. Why would you be pulling it out in public? Concealed means concealed. If there is any confrontation going on, I can guarantee you that even displaying it can be cause for a brandishing charge in California.  Obviously, that depends on circumstances, but i believe you should look up the legal definition in your state. I did a little research, if my information is correct, that a total of 5 states do not have a brandishing statute. That leaves 45 that do. You do you my friend but I would caution against that type of behavior.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Martlet said:


> I'm on solid ground.


Meaning you are an attorney?


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 20, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Which part? Brandishing is a crime.


Brandishing is only a crime if there was no justification for using that level of force. If someone is doing something that would justify shooting them, you can most certainly legally brandish the weapon and choose not to shoot them.

Brandishing a weapon is often a misunderstood aspect of a legal use of a gun.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Brandishing is only a crime if there was no justification for using that level of force. If someone is doing something that would justify shooting them, you can most certainly legally brandish the weapon and choose not to shoot them.
> 
> Brandishing a weapon is often a misunderstood aspect of a legal use of a gun.


Which is why I asked why would you be pulling it out. I also said obviously there are circumstances…meaning justified force.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Brandishing is only a crime if there was no justification for using that level of force. If someone is doing something that would justify shooting them, you can most certainly legally brandish the weapon and choose not to shoot them.
> 
> Brandishing a weapon is often a misunderstood aspect of a legal use of a gun.


Go back earlier in the thread. You will see how this got started and why. I was responding to a post.


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## Martlet (Sep 21, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok maybe we are splitting hairs. Why would you be pulling it out in public? Concealed means concealed. If there is any confrontation going on, I can guarantee you that even displaying it can be cause for a brandishing charge in California.  Obviously, that depends on circumstances, but i believe you should look up the legal definition in your state. I did a little research, if my information is correct, that a total of 5 states do not have a brandishing statute. That leaves 45 that do. You do you my friend but I would caution against that type of behavior.


Not splitting hairs at all.  The post that started this side-track discussion about brandishing, which I can't find so it may have been deleted with the political posts purge, mentioned stopping an attach simply by having a firearm, not using it.   My response was in defense of that specific action.  Given my scenario, that doesn't meet the definition of brandishing, which is an offensive employment.


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## Martlet (Sep 21, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Brandishing is only a crime if there was no justification for using that level of force. If someone is doing something that would justify shooting them, you can most certainly legally brandish the weapon and choose not to shoot them.
> 
> Brandishing a weapon is often a misunderstood aspect of a legal use of a gun.


Bingo


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