# Biu Sao/Biu Jee



## wingchun100 (Dec 29, 2016)

I don't know how anyone else feels about this topic, but I guess I will find out.

While I have always thought Biu Sao was a useful technique (as far as blocking outside, looping, haymaker type of attacks), I have always thought Biu JEE as an attack was pretty useless. Why? Because there aren't too many areas on the body that are vulnerable enough to get hurt by your fingers, whereas it isn't all that hard to break your little digits.

Where are the areas that could truly be hurt by a finger jab? The eyes, the hollow of the throat...and that's about it. And your aim has to be INCREDIBLY on point to hit these targets accurately, especially during the chaotic nature of a fight.

Personally, the only time I would ever use a finger jab is if someone had me pinned against the wall, and I could sink that jab right into the hollow of their throat. However, I think there are some people out there who might think it is the kind of attack that could be used more frequently than that.

Your thoughts?


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## KPM (Dec 30, 2016)

Biu Gee has about a 4 or 5 inch reach advantage over a punch.  So if you are managing distance well, you can land a Biu Gee while the opponent may have trouble reaching you with a punch.  Biu Gee can also be a "sweep" or "rake" with the fingertips, it doesn't have to be a thrust with the fingertips.  A quick rake across the eyes can be enough to make an opponent flinch and recoil and so set you up for a more devastating blow.  But a finger in the eye can be a fight-stopper.  You see that all the time in MMA when it happens by "accident."  And it doesn't have to be very forceful to be effective.


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## wingchun100 (Dec 30, 2016)

KPM said:


> Biu Gee has about a 4 or 5 inch reach advantage over a punch.  So if you are managing distance well, you can land a Biu Gee while the opponent may have trouble reaching you with a punch.  Biu Gee can also be a "sweep" or "rake" with the fingertips, it doesn't have to be a thrust with the fingertips.  A quick rake across the eyes can be enough to make an opponent flinch and recoil and so set you up for a more devastating blow.  But a finger in the eye can be a fight-stopper.  You see that all the time in MMA when it happens by "accident."  And it doesn't have to be very forceful to be effective.


 
I agree, especially with the rake part, but my point is your aim has to be RIDICULOUSLY on point. Then again, even if it is, if your opponent moves, then you've got a broken finger or two.


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## PiedmontChun (Dec 30, 2016)

The double Biu Sau / Bil Sau in the SNT does not have the fingers aligned with an opponent's eyes. If I recall, I was taught the proper positioning has enough spacing between the hands that it would be the slightly bent thumbs that would align with and strike an opponent's eyes while the fingers glance to the side. I imagine you could poke someone in the eye with rigid fingers but is risky since it could hurt you more than them, especially if you struck the bridge, eyebrow, or forehead region. Very narrow of a target for success that way.

Disclaimer: Before someone faults me for viewing it as a 1:1 application of the form... the "techniques" in SNT are not really "techniques" as much as teaching body mechanics and position, but there is still definitely some 1:1 application to be taken from them. That said, the Biu Sau is a great tool for dispersing shoulder level attacks that do not have low elbow force behind them (i.e a lot of non WC strikes) and can work well on the inside or while stepping to outside. I'm sure someone more experienced could comment better, but there is a reason Biu is taught in the SNT form this way, before any of the variations later in the BJ form that have different intents.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I agree, especially with the rake part, but my point is your aim has to be RIDICULOUSLY on point. Then again, even if it is, if your opponent moves, then you've got a broken finger or two.


I don't know the forms you're talking about, but I'll pitch in some thoughts that may or may not be applicable. I should probably look for a video before posting, but I'm going to do so afterwards, just to ensure I have no idea what I'm talking about. 

First, fingers are harder to break than that. They're easy to jam, and small dislocations at the knuckle aren't uncommon, but breaks and separations are uncommon. If the hand is in a good structure in Biu Jee, then even if it makes contact at an odd angle, the fingers should be reasonably protected. 

As for the effectiveness of the rake (or even poke) to the face, I don't think the targeting has to be terribly precise for it to be effective. Most people will flinch from something they perceive as about to hit their face, and moreso if they think it's going to hit their lips, nose, or eyes (in order of increasing flinchiness). So, if your Biu Jee has the range to reach their face, it need not hit a useful target to be useful - they just have to think (in that instant of reaction) that it might. If you get lucky and find an eye, so much the better.


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## kakkattekoi (Dec 30, 2016)

every movement in wing chun can be used as attack in my opinion.  if i cant use it the first time i just try it out with a diff combination

Sent from my 404SH using Tapatalk


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## geezer (Dec 31, 2016)

WC 100's OP questioning the reliability of biu sau interpreted as a _stiff-fingered jab_ has merit. As pointed out above by KPM, a soft, flicking or raking movement is sufficient against the eyes and a good deal less risky in case your opponent ducks his head downward and your fingers strike his forehead instead of the eyes.

Piedmont was also right on the mark IMO. You can use the index finger as a guide and strike the eyes with the thumb, reducing the risk to your fingers. In general, it's better not to hit with the fingertips at all. In the VT I train we follow the advice of my old Chinese sifu and apply the biu tze sau as a "shat geng sau" or "throat-cutting hand" --striking forward with the outside edge of the hand against the neck of our opponent. This is a viciously effective strike and the fingers are never put at risk. You can even apply shat-sau on the wooden dummy with no risk to your hand.


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## wingchun100 (Dec 31, 2016)

geezer said:


> WC 100's OP questioning the reliability of biu sau interpreted as a _stiff-fingered jab_ has merit. As pointed out above by KPM, a soft, flicking or raking movement is sufficient against the eyes and a good deal less risky in case your opponent ducks his head downward and your fingers strike his forehead instead of the eyes.
> 
> Piedmont was also right on the mark IMO. You can use the index finger as a guide and strike the eyes with the thumb, reducing the risk to your fingers. In general, it's better not to hit with the fingertips at all. In the VT I train we follow the advice of my old Chinese sifu and apply the biu tze sau as a "shat geng sau" or "throat-cutting hand" --striking forward with the outside edge of the hand against the neck of our opponent. This is a viciously effective strike and the fingers are never put at risk. You can even apply shat-sau on the wooden dummy with no risk to your hand.



I am going to try footage of this, because while I think I am visualizing the right thing in my head, I want to be sure.


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## wckf92 (Jan 1, 2017)

...or, perhaps you could condition your fingers...


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## yak sao (Jan 1, 2017)

Here is a short demo of how we use biu tze in LT. lineage.
The idea, as geezer stated, is not to strike with the finger tips, though in a given circumstance that could very well be the case; our understanding of the 3rd form is to create an elastic, whipping type force. So rather than send energy out to the finger tips, we send energy through the finger tips, making the arm very springy.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 1, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> ...or, perhaps you could condition your fingers...



Giving examples of how would be more useful and informative. Not for nothing, but I have never seen any finger conditioning exercises that make fingers harder to break or otherwise injure.


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## Juany118 (Jan 1, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I don't know how anyone else feels about this topic, but I guess I will find out.
> 
> While I have always thought Biu Sao was a useful technique (as far as blocking outside, looping, haymaker type of attacks), I have always thought Biu JEE as an attack was pretty useless. Why? Because there aren't too many areas on the body that are vulnerable enough to get hurt by your fingers, whereas it isn't all that hard to break your little digits.
> 
> ...




First it depends on the conditioning you do.  I go to seminars given by a TWC Master on occasion.  While he still uses the strike for "soft" targets he also speaks of the importance of training the hand to be able to apply such strikes.  He demonstrated one day by striking his own head with his finger tips.  I heard the "thunk, thunk, thunk" from across the room.

As for locations that could be hurt, I would add; a strike to the arm pit (which surprisingly has a bunch of applications), temple and the TMJ come immediately to mind. There are also other useful pressure point strikes that it works well with.  That said the only one I can think of where either a digital thumb or phoenix eye fist wouldn't be equally effective is the arm pit strike.  However don't underestimate the jab to the eyes.  Even if you don't do real damage that can be an AWESOME distraction to allow for other things.  Even before I started studying WC I found thrusting at the eyes was an excellent way for me to create an opportunity to go for a tool if I got caught "flat footed" at work.


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## Juany118 (Jan 1, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Giving examples of how would be more useful and informative. Not for nothing, but I have never seen any finger conditioning exercises that make fingers harder to break or otherwise injure.



There are a bunch of ways to do it but remember, the idea is not to let you strike a "hard" target like the skull full force with your fingers.  It's to let you strike "soft" targets reliably and provide a margin for error, if you miss.

Some of the methods...

Start with rice bags like you would for iron palm but you also condition the top of the hand.  Then after that thrust. 

I haven't gotten to this point yet with fingers but to strengthen my digital thumb and phoenix eye I do the rice bag thing and some push ups each day during my "regular" work-out.  Now I prefer starting slow hence these methods BUT to an extent, you are right in that at some point you are breaking things along with strengthening muscle and tendons.  Here is a good video that illustrates the general idea of the "breaking" things...






hop to 45 seconds on the video.  Oh another thing that helps with the above.  I assume it simply serves as a natural topical analgesic but Lau Family dit da jow helps A LOT if you apply before and after.  As an example, just the other night during the Kali training period at my school the teenager I have been assigned to "rein in" (he needs to realize 'quality' > speed still) waffled my left index finger right on the knuckle with a rattan stick while we were doing sinawali.  Over to the cabinet, some Jow, the pain was basically gone when before that, while not broken, it hurt like an SOB.  I love jow.  Don't know how it works but Lau Family stuff is almost a miracle imo.


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## wayfaring (Jan 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know the forms you're talking about, but I'll pitch in some thoughts that may or may not be applicable. I should probably look for a video before posting, but I'm going to do so afterwards, just to ensure I have no idea what I'm talking about.



Wow.  So the most vocal member of this forum isn't actually aware of the forms in wing chun?  But is going to bless us with a bunch of hot air anyway, without even doing research?

Dude, read a book.  Watch a video.  Cut down on your posting time.


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## wayfaring (Jan 3, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> There are a bunch of ways to do it but remember, the idea is not to let you strike a "hard" target like the skull full force with your fingers.  It's to let you strike "soft" targets reliably and provide a margin for error, if you miss.


People always bag on finger strikes, but there are certainly a large number of MMA fights I have seen recently stopped, and each fighter goes to their corner due to an eye poke.  That ain't happenin on da street - TM.


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## wayfaring (Jan 3, 2017)

yak sao said:


> Here is a short demo of how we use biu tze in LT. lineage.
> The idea, as geezer stated, is not to strike with the finger tips, though in a given circumstance that could very well be the case; our understanding of the 3rd form is to create an elastic, whipping type force. So rather than send energy out to the finger tips, we send energy through the finger tips, making the arm very springy.



Whatever the idea may be, this video has some unrealistic aspects of it.   I have yet to see a realistic encounter that results in one guy holding his hands down by his waist while another guy throws 18 speed techniques.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 3, 2017)

wayfaring said:


> Wow.  So the most vocal member of this forum isn't actually aware of the forms in wing chun?  But is going to bless us with a bunch of hot air anyway, without even doing research?
> 
> Dude, read a book.  Watch a video.  Cut down on your posting time.


 
Apparently, MORE people need to read that thread posted by the moderators about how the disrespect on this particular forum has gotten out of hand.

GP Seymour is one of a handful of people on this site who consistently posts intelligent, open-minded comments. I will take someone who doesn't know the forms but replies intelligently over a troll who knows the entire system any day.


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## wayfaring (Jan 3, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> ...or, perhaps you could condition your fingers...



As several have mentioned, iron palm techniques are an area several utilize for this type of conditioning.   Some families produce their own dit da jow, or iron palm medicine.  Many are protective over disclosing this practice and method, as different iron palm training methods produce some different energy results.


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## wayfaring (Jan 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Apparently, MORE people need to read that thread posted by the moderators about how the disrespect on this particular forum has gotten out of hand.
> 
> GP Seymour is one of a handful of people on this site who consistently posts intelligent, open-minded comments. I will take someone who doesn't know the forms but replies intelligently over a troll who knows the entire system any day.



I guess I have to disagree.  I see him acting like a self appointed moderator on just about every thread.   Telling people they are over the top.  Telling other people a certain member is grumpy but not a troll.

He certainly posts a lot of content.   My legitimate complaint about the last post you quoted and came to his defense about, he is saying basically he is too lazy to even go look up a video on a form, doesn't even know the name of a form, but is going to provide advice on how to train the content in the form.  To me that does not describe an intelligent post or an open minded comment.  Of course, YMMV.

As for you bringing up the moderator post, maybe you actually need to read the rules on the forum?  It sounds a lot here like you are calling me a troll because I am bringing up a legitimate complaint about another's behavior.


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## yak sao (Jan 3, 2017)

wayfaring said:


> Whatever the idea may be, this video has some unrealistic aspects of it.   I have yet to see a realistic encounter that results in one guy holding his hands down by his waist while another guy throws 18 speed techniques.



It's a demo


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## wayfaring (Jan 3, 2017)

yak sao said:


> It's a demo



Sure.  Subject to all the problems of any other compliant partner demo.    I've seen hundreds of them, the punch and 10 technique counter response.  The problem with them is that in a realistic encounter the uke doesn't sit there and wait for the 10th technique to finish.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Apparently, MORE people need to read that thread posted by the moderators about how the disrespect on this particular forum has gotten out of hand.
> 
> GP Seymour is one of a handful of people on this site who consistently posts intelligent, open-minded comments. I will take someone who doesn't know the forms but replies intelligently over a troll who knows the entire system any day.


Many thanks, Steve. I can assume who that's in reply to - already on my "ignore" list.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 3, 2017)

I got your back, man.


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## lansao (Jan 3, 2017)

The target area for the eye can be made a little larger. The entire eye socket and even the upper half of the cheek can be the target. You can "bridge" from the upper cheek up into the eye socket in an upward motion as you drive through the skull.

~ Alan


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## PiedmontChun (Jan 3, 2017)

wayfaring said:


> Sure.  Subject to all the problems of any other compliant partner demo.    I've seen hundreds of them, the punch and 10 technique counter response.  The problem with them is that in a realistic encounter the uke doesn't sit there and wait for the 10th technique to finish.



You refer to this as a "compliant partner" demo as if that is a shortcoming. You DO realize the teacher on the left is not actually striking his student? It demonstrates whip like force and also incredible control. I've been hit by my sifu under very specific contexts and with restraint. If a Sifu were to attack like this, and not utilize restraint, that's not a demonstration that I would ever want to be a part of.

I'm sure the student in this demo video could have countered the attacks according to his ability, but in doing so he would be getting trapped and pulled further into the attacks being demo'd. That's how Biu Jee, and many WC attacks work. Its better to be 100% compliant as to not get hurt.


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## wckf92 (Jan 3, 2017)

wayfaring said:


> Many are protective over disclosing this practice and method, ....



Agreed!


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## Juany118 (Jan 3, 2017)

PiedmontChun said:


> You refer to this as a "compliant partner" demo as if that is a shortcoming. You DO realize the teacher on the left is not actually striking his student? It demonstrates whip like force and also incredible control. I've been hit by my sifu under very specific contexts and with restraint. If a Sifu were to attack like this, and not utilize restraint, that's not a demonstration that I would ever want to be a part of.
> 
> I'm sure the student in this demo video could have countered the attacks according to his ability, but in doing so he would be getting trapped and pulled further into the attacks being demo'd. That's how Biu Jee, and many WC attacks work. Its better to be 100% compliant as to not get hurt.



The same applies in Aikido.  Now "compliance" often goes to far.  I used to hate seeing a uke throwing sloppy halfhearted attacks.  That said if you do not "go with the flow" once a throw had been initiated (or as some say "flop") you run a serious risk of injury such as dislocations, torn ligaments and tendons, etc.  You need to practice proper ukemi in Aikido asyou do in Judo or it's going to result in a trip to the hospital.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> The same applies in Aikido.  Now "compliance" often goes to far.  I used to hate seeing a uke throwing sloppy halfhearted attacks.  That said if you do not "go with the flow" once a throw had been initiated (or as some say "flop") you run a serious risk of injury such as dislocations, torn ligaments and tendons, etc.  You need to practice proper ukemi in Aikido asyou do in Judo or it's going to result in a trip to the hospital.


Agreed. The ukemi in some styles is about protecting the uke. It can necessarily be overly compliant in some cases, and that has to be accounted for by having other drills and exercises that reduce the compliance. As you pointed out, one of the biggest risks is crappy attacks, which I've been known to just stand and take, making them do the attack again.


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## PiedmontChun (Jan 4, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> The same applies in Aikido.  Now "compliance" often goes to far.  I used to hate seeing a uke throwing sloppy halfhearted attacks.  That said if you do not "go with the flow" once a throw had been initiated (or as some say "flop") you run a serious risk of injury such as dislocations, torn ligaments and tendons, etc.  You need to practice proper ukemi in Aikido asyou do in Judo or it's going to result in a trip to the hospital.



I see your point, but it is very much apples and oranges to make that comparison or use as a standard to hold WC to, or almost any striking art for that matter. A judoka can execute a throw on a resisting partner in randori, and provided the partner is decently skilled at ukemi, no one gets hurt. Strikes to the throat, palm strikes to the chin / jaw, and elbow strikes to the face at full speed like you see here would seriously hurt a partner. Resisting it makes it worse, better to be compliant and for the teacher to use restraint. Very different situation.

With any decent sifu or school, I would hope some of the attacks get explored in drills with some realism or where they can be used closer to 100%, even if that means using pads or other safeguards. But that is not what was being demo'd in that video.


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## DanT (Jan 8, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I don't know how anyone else feels about this topic, but I guess I will find out.
> 
> While I have always thought Biu Sao was a useful technique (as far as blocking outside, looping, haymaker type of attacks), I have always thought Biu JEE as an attack was pretty useless. Why? Because there aren't too many areas on the body that are vulnerable enough to get hurt by your fingers, whereas it isn't all that hard to break your little digits.
> 
> ...


So my personal thoughts are that if you condition your hands well enough you can have many more targets available for striking. Examples include the torso as well which is a major target. My sifu studied under 3 wing chun teachers, and he said that none of them however conditioned for striking with the fingers. That being said, the biu sao is most often used as a block, not a strike, the extended and tensed fingers serve to further contract the muscles on the outside of the forearm allowing it to be used better as a block.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 8, 2017)

DanT said:


> So my personal thoughts are that if you condition your hands well enough you can have many more targets available for striking. Examples include the torso as well which is a major target. My sifu studied under 3 wing chun teachers, and he said that none of them however conditioned for striking with the fingers. That being said, the biu sao is most often used as a block, not a strike, the extended and tensed fingers serve to further contract the muscles on the outside of the forearm allowing it to be used better as a block.



That's what my thread was all about: biu SAO is a good block. Biu JEE is a useless attack...again, in MY opinion. There is only so much conditioning that can be done for the fingers. At the end of the day, they are still far too easy to break or sprain for me to try doing a finger jab to the eyes. Think about it: the vulnerable areas on the body are mostly very small targets. Example: the eyes. The ability to hit a small target when under stress (example: being attacked) are severely diminished. Therefore, in my opinion biu jee is one of the most useless attacks in the Wing Chun arsenal.


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## Callen (Jan 8, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> That's what my thread was all about: biu SAO is a good block. Biu JEE is a useless attack...again, in MY opinion.


But what if Biu Jee was about more than just what to do with the fingers? Biu Jee also teaches to strike from a blind spot, from below a folded elbow.


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## wckf92 (Jan 8, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Biu JEE is a useless attack...again, in MY opinion. At the end of the day, they are still far too easy to break or sprain for me to try doing a finger jab to the eyes. Think about it: the vulnerable areas on the body are mostly very small targets. Example: the eyes. The ability to hit a small target when under stress (example: being attacked) are severely diminished. Therefore, in my opinion biu jee is one of the most useless attacks in the Wing Chun arsenal.



I disagree but whatever.
I've done it. Wasn't difficult at all


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## wingchun100 (Jan 8, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> I disagree but whatever.
> I've done it. Wasn't difficult at all



I didn't post it to change anyone's mind. It was to ask what people thought, and to inspire discussion, sharing different takes on it.


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## wckf92 (Jan 8, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I didn't post it to change anyone's mind. It was to ask what people thought, and to inspire discussion, sharing different takes on it.



Understood. Thx Steve. No worries


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## lansao (Jan 8, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I didn't post it to change anyone's mind. It was to ask what people thought, and to inspire discussion, sharing different takes on it.



I think it's worth keeping an open mind on it's usefulness as a strike especially when teaching. You never know when you or one of your students may pickup helpful tips from other teachers/students that help with implementation.

Generally tend to feel that way about most "xyz is useless" statements as they tend to limit the development of the art more often than prune/grow it.

Totally get that you're not looking to persuade with that statement but also appreciate its ability to persuade regardless of intent.


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## Danny T (Jan 8, 2017)

Callen said:


> But what if Biu Jee was about more than just what to do with the fingers? Biu Jee also teaches to strike from a blind spot, from below a folded elbow.


Fold the elbow with the opposite hand in a fist under the elbow. Have someone pressure your elbow toward your core. Punch with the fisted arm. Do the same with the fist open as in BJ. Thrust the arm forward. Which is easier? 
Can BJ be a finger thrust to the eyes, throat, or other targets? Certainly, ...your mileage may vary.


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## geezer (Jan 8, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> That's what my thread was all about: biu SAO is a good block. Biu JEE is a useless attack...again, in MY opinion.



Byiu Tze is very effective as _both_ a deflection and attack in a single move (da sau juk si siu sau) if you _stop _thinking about it as a rigid finger-tip jab. Flexible fingers, whipping force is the key. then you can hit with the side of the wrist, the side of the hand, or whipping with the fingertips depending on range. If you can draw force through to the fingertips like snapping a wet towel, the effect is quite impressive. And you don't risk jamming your fingers.

if you've ever been even lightly "snapped" with this kind of biu tze sau to the throat or the side of the neck --even through a padded neck-brace- you'd  know exactly what I'm talking about. My old Chinese sifu could generate and control remarkable power that way. So could some others I've worked with. Emin Boztepe. Also the guy in that demo, Jeff Webb. 

My advice is keep an open mind on Biu Tze untill you get a chance to see how those guys use it. Although I'm not in that league, I'm Ok at it myself when my arthritis isn't acting up.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2017)

lansao said:


> I think it's worth keeping an open mind on it's usefulness as a strike especially when teaching. You never know when you or one of your students may pickup helpful tips from other teachers/students that help with implementation.
> 
> Generally tend to feel that way about most "xyz is useless" statements as they tend to limit the development of the art more often than prune/grow it.
> 
> Totally get that you're not looking to persuade with that statement but also appreciate its ability to persuade regardless of intent.


Agreed. There are some forms in NGA that aren't terribly useful for direct application, but which are useful for teaching specific principles and for forcing students to practice particularly difficult balance and weight transitions. I do my best not to refer to them as "useless". I either refer to them as "esoteric" or just "less useful", so students will continue to look for application to the principles in them, rather than dismissing the form.


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## Juany118 (Jan 8, 2017)

lansao said:


> The target area for the eye can be made a little larger. The entire eye socket and even the upper half of the cheek can be the target. You can "bridge" from the upper cheek up into the eye socket in an upward motion as you drive through the skull.
> 
> ~ Alan



This is similar to how we look at it at my school, with a punch or palm strike.  We technically aim to hit just under the cheek bone, under the eye.  If you overshoot though, it's all good you hit the eye itself, to much to the other side the nose, opposite the tmj, etc.


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## DanT (Jan 8, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> That's what my thread was all about: biu SAO is a good block. Biu JEE is a useless attack...again, in MY opinion. There is only so much conditioning that can be done for the fingers. At the end of the day, they are still far too easy to break or sprain for me to try doing a finger jab to the eyes. Think about it: the vulnerable areas on the body are mostly very small targets. Example: the eyes. The ability to hit a small target when under stress (example: being attacked) are severely diminished. Therefore, in my opinion biu jee is one of the most useless attacks in the Wing Chun arsenal.


When you think about it the eyes aren't that small of a target (the eye socket itself is generally 1.5 inches in diameter ) although it might be difficult to strike in hectic combat you can use it like anything else: when the oportunity presents itself. At the end of the day if you're conditioning your fingers for 5,6,7 years etc and have them extremely strong, you won't break them even if you do miss.


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## Juany118 (Jan 8, 2017)

DanT said:


> When you think about it the eyes aren't that small of a target (the eye socket itself is generally 1.5 inches in diameter ) although it might be difficult to strike in hectic combat you can use it like anything else: when the oportunity presents itself. At the end of the day if you're conditioning your fingers for 5,6,7 years etc and have them extremely strong, you won't break them even if you do miss.



Exactly.  I know who Sifu who has done what you said for well over a decade now.  He suggested to us during a nerve strike seminar to do the conditioning BUT to also condition the Phoenix eye fist and digital thumb because those will get tougher faster as there are more things you can do (push-ups with them etc) and the underlying structure is stronger to start with.  It's all about the effort you are willing to put into conditioning that makes it useful beyond a mere distraction and turns it into a weapon.


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## DanT (Jan 8, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Exactly.  I know who Sifu who has done what you said for well over a decade now.  He suggested to us during a nerve strike seminar to do the conditioning BUT to also condition the Phoenix eye fist and digital thumb because those will get tougher faster as there are more things you can do (push-ups with them etc) and the underlying structure is stronger to start with.  It's all about the effort you are willing to put into conditioning that makes it useful beyond a mere distraction and turns it into a weapon.


Talking about the Phoenix fist, my Sifu also teaches white crane (which uses Phoenix fist as the primary weapon) and that thing effing hurts man!


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## Juany118 (Jan 8, 2017)

DanT said:


> Talking about the Phoenix fist, my Sifu also teaches white crane (which uses Phoenix fist as the primary weapon) and that thing effing hurts man!



Oh I know.  It's in our WC repertoire but only for striking specific targets that are especially painful if you hit correctly.  There are a couple of "soft spots" on the torso, neck/clavical area and the upper arms that my Sifu and his Sifu (the one who hosted the seminar I mentioned) have used me as a test dummy for.  Even at like 50% it was painful as all hell.  I don't even want to think about what a full strength one would do if you hit someone in the temple.


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## DanT (Jan 8, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Oh I know.  It's in our WC repertoire but only for striking specific targets that are especially painful if you hit correctly.  There are a couple of "soft spots" on the torso, neck/clavical area and the upper arms that my Sifu and his Sifu (the one who hosted the seminar I mentioned) have used me as a test dummy for.  Even at like 50% it was painful as all hell.  I don't even want to think about what a full strength one would do if you hit someone in the temple.


Yeah the solar plexus strike with the Phoenix eye fist really hurts like hell


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## Juany118 (Jan 8, 2017)

DanT said:


> Yeah the solar plexus strike with the Phoenix eye fist really hurts like hell



There is one just to the outside of each nipple as well.  That one about dropped me to my knees once.  Sore just thinking about em.


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