# Baguazhang Fighting Techniques?



## lianxi (May 18, 2018)

Wondering if there are any baguazhang practitioners out there who use this incredible art in the form of actual fighting techniques? I'm 64 and I've been a practitioner of baguazhang's circle walking practice for a couple of years now and am amazed at what it's done for my core, balance, breathing, independence between upper and lower body, proprioception and more. Its reputation for increased health and longevity has proven itself to me beyond a doubt, but it seems to be rare in terms of actual fighting - at least in video form. Despite some wire work and dramatization - in the film, The Grandmaster - Zhang Ziyi's movements in the match with Tony Leung in the first 15 seconds are certainly expressing true baguazhang as are her movements in the snow at the end of the film - she was taught by Ge Chun Yan, a master of the art - so this makes sense. And I know a Navy Seal isn't going to use this kind of movement in a life or death match, but this turning from the core that is the feature of baguazhang generates such power, that I'm always looking for its advanced manifestations and rarely finding them. The more martial arts become about the UFC and 'what works in a real fight in the street' (nothing wrong with either) the more rare it is to locate the more advanced expressions of something like baguazhang in the form of actual fighting techniques or even fighting forms as practice. I would truly value and appreciate any information, advice or shared experiences from baguazhang practitioners. Thanks.


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## Encho (May 18, 2018)

lianxi said:


> Wondering if there are any baguazhang practitioners out there who use this incredible art in the form of actual fighting techniques? I'm 64 and I've been a practitioner of baguazhang's circle walking practice for a couple of years now and am amazed at what it's done for my core, balance, breathing, independence between upper and lower body, proprioception and more. Its reputation for increased health and longevity has proven itself to me beyond a doubt, but it seems to be rare in terms of actual fighting - at least in video form. Despite some wire work and dramatization - in the film, The Grandmaster - Zhang Ziyi's movements in the match with Tony Leung in the first 15 seconds are certainly expressing true baguazhang as are her movements in the snow at the end of the film - she was taught by Ge Chun Yan, a master of the art - so this makes sense. And I know a Navy Seal isn't going to use this kind of movement in a life or death match, but this turning from the core that is the feature of baguazhang generates such power, that I'm always looking for its advanced manifestations and rarely finding them. The more martial arts become about the UFC and 'what works in a real fight in the street' (nothing wrong with either) the more rare it is to locate the more advanced expressions of something like baguazhang in the form of actual fighting techniques or even fighting forms as practice. I would truly value and appreciate any information, advice or shared experiences from baguazhang practitioners. Thanks.


Hi,
Been doing baguazhang for a while,
I have used baguazhang with success. most of my baguazhang has a mixed look to it as far as application, I find alot of baguazhang out there is very flowery, and not very applicable. I think as baguazhang practitioners, you should train with resistance and actual feed back with gloves and helmet, when you try to do locks, and throws have some resistance and honest feedback.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 18, 2018)

The most general technique used in BG is the "switching hand". 

- You punch with your right hand. Your opponent blocks it.
- You use left hand to take over his blocking, free your right hand, you continue striking with your right hand.

One concern that I have about BG is the "cross legs".


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## greytowhite (May 18, 2018)

Tom Bisio does a good job presenting the combat applications of the Liang bagua he learned in these DVDs.

DVD'S - Internal Arts International


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## lianxi (May 19, 2018)

greytowhite said:


> Tom Bisio does a good job presenting the combat applications of the Liang bagua he learned in these DVDs.
> 
> DVD'S - Internal Arts International



Thanks - this is the sort of thing I was looking for.


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## lianxi (May 19, 2018)

> One concern that I have about BG is the "cross legs".




Have to agree with that - and yet those cross legs and turned upper body have really helped me with core strength, chi energy and independence between upper body and lower. Maybe circle walking's main gift is really simply as a Taoist health practice, like yoga, qigong and circle walking - they all benefit your body in multiple ways. It may be forcing things to try and make a fighting system out of them, though Tom Bisio seems to have some applications that make sense.


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## DanT (May 19, 2018)

I have never met a Bagua practitioner who could fight. I have sparred with a few and they could not apply what they learned because they never sparred hard or conditioned their bodies.


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## lianxi (May 19, 2018)

DanT said:


> I have never met a Bagua practitioner who could fight. I have sparred with a few and they could not apply what they learned because they never sparred hard or conditioned their bodies.



I don't disagree - I think bagua excels as a means for cultivating health and longevity and in how it develops the body- but haven't seen anyone really make the jump to using its moves as a fighting art - kind of like how yoga can help the martial artist in terms of opening the hips, more range of motion, balance, proprioception, etc. -  it's for exercise and training - but you don't use its moves to fight.


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## Encho (May 19, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The most general technique used in BG is the "switching hand".
> 
> - You punch with your right hand. Your opponent blocks it.
> - You use left hand to take over his blocking, free your right hand, you continue striking with your right hand.
> ...


Baguazhang, in most style, do not cross the leg. that picture he is not crossing the legs though, to the untrained it may seem that way. He is also practicing circle walking which in most styles is a training and a health tool and not an actual method of fighting. Also in most baguazhang styles there is no punching there is open palms used in different ways hence Zhang.


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## Encho (May 19, 2018)

lianxi said:


> Have to agree with that - and yet those cross legs and turned upper body have really helped me with core strength, chi energy and independence between upper body and lower. Maybe circle walking's main gift is really simply as a Taoist health practice, like yoga, qigong and circle walking - they all benefit your body in multiple ways. It may be forcing things to try and make a fighting system out of them, though Tom Bisio seems to have some applications that make sense.


I believe Tom learned from Li Zi Ming, I have also studied liang style but only 8 old palms, honestly that is enough to learn in the liang style.


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## Flying Crane (May 19, 2018)

DanT said:


> I have never met a Bagua practitioner who could fight. I have sparred with a few and they could not apply what they learned because they never sparred hard or conditioned their bodies.


I did.  That guy was scary.  Police trainer from Bejing, he got to practice on live bodies every day.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2018)

Encho said:


> Baguazhang, in most style, do not cross the leg. that picture he is not crossing the legs though, to the untrained it may seem that way.


No matter how you may stand, the 90 degree angle from your foot line will be your balance weakness. If your foot line is east-west, your balance weakness line will be south-north. In the following picture,

- his foot line is east-west,
- his hands line is south-north.

1. When your balance weakness line and your opponent's entering path is the same line. If your opponent move in, you will have very weak balance to deal with it. The wrestling "double legs" is a good example.
2. In the following picture, a right foot sweep on his right foot ankle, he will be down. Most of the foot sweep requires hand function. When you cross leg, your opponent can sweep you down without using his hand.








lianxi said:


> Maybe circle walking's main gift is really simply as a Taoist health practice, ...


If we want to talk about BG fighting techniques, may be we should stay away from BG health, ... Things that may make sense for health, it may not make sense for fighting.


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## lianxi (May 19, 2018)

OK - I started this thread but am now wondering if as with so many martial arts styles - there are training techniques and then there are fighting techniques. Since joining this forum last week, I see this one question behind almost every thread - does it work in a real fight?
Kung Fu Wang says regarding the picture of circle walking above - "No matter how you may stand, the 90 degree angle from your foot line will be your balance weakness." Absolutely true - you can see it. I have received powerful benefits from circle walking by adopting this very position and spending time in it - essentially walking North while rotating your upper body West, then reversing - it's designed to work your core and your legs and develop independence between upper and lower body. It's brilliant in what it does for you - but circle walking is NOT a fighting stance - you can be pushed over very easily - it's a training exercise. Another example is yoga - I use pigeon pose from yoga to work my piriformis, psoas and gluteus maximus muscles - it really has helped my martial arts practice immensely - protecting my back, improving my flexibility, my alignment, my kicks, my stances and my balance - but it's not a fighting technique! Likewise, I don't use chi kung or circle walking to fight, I use them to train my body so that at 64, I can practice martial arts and not hurt myself and be my best. Baguazhang after all began as a Taoist meditation and health practice - it's enough to ask of it - maybe it's not about turning it into fighting at all, but simply about using it in training the body, which it does very well.


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## Flying Crane (May 19, 2018)

I believe very strongly that some training methods develop skills needed for fighting, but the application in a fight often does not look like what it looks like in training.

Some people say that it then is not the same thing, that your application should look like your training.  I disagree with that notion, but with caveates.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2018)

I have 2 BG tournament fighting clips here. Those 2 BG fighters came from Korea. The BG circle walking was used in the 1st clip.

The head punch is not allowed in this tournament. It proves that the full power body shot may not be that effective as people may want to believe.


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## lianxi (May 19, 2018)

In Clip 1, he's certainly using circle walking to start the match, but then seems to abandon it to attack straight on. Well, what do I know - I just use it as an exercise.

I see true baguazhang technique in this clip from The Grandmaster - 



.
I know I'll get in trouble with some members here for presenting this - it's a fictional film, its choreographed, and there are wires and cinematic tricks, etc, but between 0.35 sec and 1.01 sec -  the FIRST TWO sections when Gong Er and Ip Man begin to fight, she is using what looks like true baguzhang application to me - constantly turning from the core, changing directions and striking - the overhead shot is especially helpful in seeing this. Tony is using Wing Chun - Ziyi trained with Ge Chunyan in Bagua to prepare for this film so there is at least some authenticity here.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2018)

lianxi said:


> constantly turning from the core, changing directions and striking .


We have to discuss MA with logic here. In ground game, there is a good reason that no matter how hard that your opponent's punch is, you should never turn your back toward him. 

When you turn your back toward your opponent, you will be choked (both in stand up game and ground game). To spin your body in front of your opponent in fighting (as shown in your clip) is not a good fighting strategy IMO.


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## lianxi (May 19, 2018)

I don't disagree, though it would be difficult to choke someone turning at that speed. Also, I don't know that her strikes would be that effective - for me, this is more about art and grace and a civilized exchange of fighting energy. It's just beautiful to me, that's all - if logic and fighting efficacy are required here at MT, I'm sure to get in trouble! I'm smitten by the art in martial art.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2018)

Here is an example that your opponent can borrow your circle walking momentum and take you down. This technique is called "fishnet casting".


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## Xue Sheng (May 19, 2018)

Bagua, if trained correctly is good for fighting....however most these days to not train it for fighting, they train for form. Problem with Bagua,, like Taijiquan, is that the forms look good and many only train for the forms.

Go back in Chinese history and it was a good style for dealing with multiple attackers. It was also one of the preferred styles for body guards on the silk road.

There is also a story about Cheng Tinghua during the boxer rebellion taking on and defeating sevarl German soldiers.... however he chose to walk away after beating them and the got back up and shot him


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## ST1Doppelganger (May 20, 2018)

greytowhite said:


> Tom Bisio does a good job presenting the combat applications of the Liang bagua he learned in these DVDs.
> 
> DVD'S - Internal Arts International


I agree that Tom Bisio has legit bagua DVDs and only recomend them since you have a background in bagua.  I was able to pick up quite a few apps and structural details from his DVDs but I will warn you when hes doing the forms or palm changes their not broken down in to super detailed step by step instruction. They still are the best bagua DVDs I've personally viewed though.  

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## lianxi (May 20, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Bagua, if trained correctly is good for fighting....however most these days to not train it for fighting, they train for form. Problem with Bagua,, like Taijiquan, is that the forms look good and many only train for the forms.



I'm one of those who like to practice forms - I think I'd like to learn some of these - thanks Xue Sheng.


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## Dong xiao hu (May 21, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Bagua, if trained correctly is good for fighting....however most these days to not train it for fighting, they train for form. Problem with Bagua,, like Taijiquan, is that the forms look good and many only train for the forms.
> 
> Go back in Chinese history and it was a good style for dealing with multiple attackers. It was also one of the preferred styles for body guards on the silk road.
> 
> There is also a story about Cheng Tinghua during the boxer rebellion taking on and defeating sevarl German soldiers.... however he chose to walk away after beating them and the got back up and shot him


Heeey I was going to say that! Also Bagua practioners are known to carry knives. Having trained in BGZ for most of my 35+ years in the arts I've had only one occasion to use it outside of sparing. It serves me very well. Now I just do it for helth and spar with it every once in a while.

Sent from my H710VL using Tapatalk


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## macher (May 22, 2018)

lianxi said:


> I don't disagree - I think bagua excels as a means for cultivating health and longevity and in how it develops the body- but haven't seen anyone really make the jump to using its moves as a fighting art - kind of like how yoga can help the martial artist in terms of opening the hips, more range of motion, balance, proprioception, etc. -  it's for exercise and training - but you don't use its moves to fight.



I practiced Bagua years ago and unfortunately our teacher moved. He taught Bagua to be very applicable. Sort of a western boxing blend. We sparred more than we practiced form. I can say training like this it was very effective for real world self defense.


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## Xue Sheng (May 22, 2018)

My understanding is that those that tained with Park Bok-Nam  do the martial arts of it. However I do not know this for sure since I never trained with Park Bok-Nam > I know Park Bok-Nam learned it as a fighting art.


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## Flying Crane (May 23, 2018)

lianxi said:


> I'm one of those who like to practice forms - I think I'd like to learn some of these - thanks Xue Sheng.


If you do learn them, make sure your teacher is teaching you the foundation material first, upon which the forms ought to be built. If you jump straight into the forms without understanding the foundation, then your forms will only be superficial and less valuable even just as exercise.

With the foundation, then you have the tools to develop it for fighting if you close to do so, even if you are mostly interested in health etc.


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## lianxi (May 26, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> If you do learn them, make sure your teacher is teaching you the foundation material first, upon which the forms ought to be built. If you jump straight into the forms without understanding the foundation, then your forms will only be superficial and less valuable even just as exercise.
> 
> With the foundation, then you have the tools to develop it for fighting if you close to do so, even if you are mostly interested in health etc.



Thanks Xue Sheng and Flying Crane. Despite being the one who asked about applications, I quickly defaulted back to using baguazhang (along with yoga and qigong) for its beneficial effects on my health, energy, balance and proprioception. I did read Park Bok-Nam's book, and agree that there are some good applications there. Spending more and more time on martialtalk I've started to see the divide in my own practice between practical fighting techniques and arts that have supreme benefits that are not directly related to fighting. For now, baguazhang is back in that latter category for me.


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## jameschen (Feb 4, 2019)

DanT said:


> I have never met a Bagua practitioner who could fight. I have sparred with a few and they could not apply what they learned because they never sparred hard or conditioned their bodies.



Yes, Bagua practitioner can't fight till now.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 4, 2019)

DanT said:


> I have never met a Bagua practitioner who could fight. I have sparred with a few and they could not apply what they learned because they never sparred hard or conditioned their bodies.





jameschen said:


> Yes, Bagua practitioner can't fight till now.


If we look at both 1928 and 1929 Chinese MA tournaments, there were no Bagua fighters in those lists (There were no Taiji fighters in those lists either).

1928 National Guo Shu fighting Competitiion

朱国福(上海 形意)、 Xing Yi
王云鹏(河南 少林)、Shaolin
张长义(上海 形意）、Xing Yi
马裕甫（山东 查拳）、Long Fist (Cha Quan)
张英振（山东 查拳）、Long fist (Cha Quan)
窦来庚（山东 太乙门）、Tai Yi Men
杨法武（山东 摔跤、查拳）、Long fist (Cha Quan) Shuai jiao
杨士文（山东 迷踪拳）、Long fist (Mi Zong)
顾汝章（江苏 少林）、Shaolin
王成章（上海 洪拳） 、Hong quan (not sure if northern or southern
朱国桢（河北 形意）、Xing Yi
张维通（山西 六合拳）、Xing yi liu he Quan
朱国禄（河北 形意）、Xing Yi
马承智（安徽 少林）、Shaolin
胡炯（江西 字门拳）。Zi Men Quan (This is the only southern style)

*1929 Hangzhou Leitai Tournament*

1. Wang Ziqing (skilled at shaolin & shuai jiao)
2. Zhu Guolu (xingyi and boxing)
3. Zhang Dianqing (fanzi quan, shuai jiao, yiquan)
4. Cao Yanhai (originally studied Mizong quan. Learnt Tongbei from Ma Yingtu, pigua from Guo Changsheng, later studied under Sun Lutang)
5. Hu Fengshan (originally studied xingyi under Tang Shilin., later became Sun Lutang’s disciple)
6. Ma Chengzhi (originally shaolin,later studied xingyi under Sun Lutang)
7. Han Qingtang (praying mantis, taizu long fist, especially expert at qin’na)
8. Wan Changsheng (learnt Cha quan from Ma Jinbiao)
9. Zhu Zhenglin (learnt Tai Yi Men under Yang Mingzhai)
10. Zhang Xiaocai (learnt Cha Quan under Ma Jinbiao)
11. Gao Zuolin
12. Yue Xia (bagua under Zhao Weixian)
13. Zhao Daoxin (yiquan)
14. Li Qinglan
15. Shang Zhenshan

1933 National Nanking Guo Shu Competitiion

Don't have name list for this.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 4, 2019)

lianxi said:


> Spending more and more time on martialtalk I've started to see the divide in my own practice between practical fighting techniques and arts that have supreme benefits that are not directly related to fighting. For now, baguazhang is back in that latter category for me.


I like to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. I prefer to train fighting skill, at the same time I can also get the health benefit.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Feb 4, 2019)

I dont know or do it traditionally but have successfully used the concept in many sparring rounds as well as the counter "fishnet casting" @Kung Fu Wang talked about


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## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If we look at both 1928 and 1929 Chinese MA tournaments, there were no Bagua fighters in those lists (There were no Taiji fighters in those lists either).
> 
> 1928 National Guo Shu fighting Competitiion
> 
> ...


How is this at all meaningful?  Just because nobody with Bagua background entered those tournaments, you think they didn’t exist, Bagua people could not fight?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> How is this at all meaningful?  Just because nobody with Bagua background entered those tournaments, you think they didn’t exist, Bagua people could not fight?



 For that matter it does not even mean any Bagauzhang people entered. If that can be taken as any proof then every other Chinese martial art that is not listed can be said to have no fighters...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 5, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> How is this at all meaningful?  Just because nobody with Bagua background entered those tournaments, you think they didn’t exist, Bagua people could not fight?


The official Chinese MA tournament record shows no Bagua people's fighting in those tournaments.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 5, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The official Chinese MA tournament record shows no Bagua people's fighting in those tournaments.


That doesn't mean that bagua can't fight though. It just means no bagua chose to fight. It would be different if 50 Bagua people fought, and all of them lost the first round, but them not being there shows nothing more than no bagua guys chose to enter that tournament. It would be the same as claiming hung gar practitioners, or fu jow pai practitioners, can't fight because they were not at the tournament those two years.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The official Chinese MA tournament record shows no Bagua people's fighting in those tournaments.


And what is your conclusion from that?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 5, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> And what is your conclusion from that?


I cannot find any record to prove that Bagua guys can fight. Of course you can say that I cannot find any record to prove that Bagua guys can't fight either. 

To me, no record -> no prove.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I cannot find any record to prove that Bagua guys can fight. Of course you can say that I cannot find any record to prove that Bagua guys can't fight either.
> 
> To me, no record -> no prove.



So, then to you no record to prove they could or could not...so your post then seems irrelevant since it can neither prove or disprove baguazhang folks can fight.....so why post the fight record then?

Cheng Tinghua, boxer rebellion... look it up, I shall say no more. Sadly Youtube and video cameras did not exist in old China to satisfy your need for proof.  Believe whatever you wish too.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I cannot find any record to prove that Bagua guys can fight. Of course you can say that I cannot find any record to prove that Bagua guys can't fight either.
> 
> To me, no record -> no prove.


No record means no record.  Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 5, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> No record means no record.  Nothing more, nothing less.


1. I can't prove that ghost exist -> my conclusion is that ghost doesn't exist.
2. I can't prove that ghost doesn't exist -> my conclusion is that ghost exist.

IMO, logic 1 makes more sense than logic 2.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 5, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 1. I can't prove that ghost exist -> my conclusion is that ghost doesn't exist.
> 2. I can't prove that ghost doesn't exist -> my conclusion is that ghost exist.
> 
> IMO, logic 1 makes more sense than logic 2.


That logic only works if either
A: The initial point is so ludicrous it needs proving. If I say that I can punch a hole through a tank, you need proof of this. That a martial art teaches you to fight needs less proof.
B: You would expect to see proof of it. If the tournament was created by bagua guys interested in marketing bagua, then the lack of them would suggest something. If it is a tournament for all of china, with over 100 different styles and 15 people attending...the lack of one style means a lot less. Again, I did not see hung gar or fu jow pai on either list, but those are the only two CMA styles that I personally know have good practitioners. 

By using similarly flawed logic, I can make the assumption:
1. Hung gar is a good CMA, that produces good fighters
2. This tournament was open for all china, but there was no hung gar there.
3. Therefore, this tournament must have not had good fighters.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 5, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> If it is a tournament for all of china, with over 100 different styles and 15 people attending....


There were over 200 competitors in both tournaments. Those 15 were the final winners.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 5, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have 2 BG tournament fighting clips here. Those 2 BG fighters came from Korea. The BG circle walking was used in the 1st clip.
> 
> The head punch is not allowed in this tournament. It proves that the full power body shot may not be that effective as people may want to believe.


just adding another





Unique perspective here


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## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 1. I can't prove that ghost exist -> my conclusion is that ghost doesn't exist.
> 2. I can't prove that ghost doesn't exist -> my conclusion is that ghost exist.
> 
> IMO, logic 1 makes more sense than logic 2.


Sorry, that is a rediculous comparison.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 5, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There were over 200 competitors in both tournaments. Those 15 were the final winners.


I misunderstood then. I think the point still stands though, as there was no bagua people competing at all from your other post.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There were over 200 competitors in both tournaments. Those 15 were the final winners.



So then only those martial arts are capable of fighting..... of all the Martial arts that come from China.....sorry, no, it does not work that way. 
No Shuaijiao fighters so they cannot fight, no Wing Chun so they cannot fight, no tiger so they cannot fight, no Hakka styles so they cannot fight, no Baji so they cannot fight.... do you see the flaw here in your logic


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 5, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Go back in Chinese history and it was a good style for dealing with multiple attackers.


I never thought of it that way, but, ... yeah that's how people look when faced with multiple attackers, they have that same walk but less refined and less controlled.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 5, 2019)

lianxi said:


> I quickly defaulted back to using baguazhang (along with yoga and qigong) for its beneficial effects on my health, energy, balance and proprioception.


This is what confuses me ALL THE TIME.  If you train your martial arts as a health system then you'll only get 50% health benefits.  If you train it like a fighting system then you'll get 100% health benefits.  This is what you miss out on when you only train a system for health.

1. Proper fighting structure that engages muscles differently and requires more use of those muscles.
2.. Muscle strengthening through resistance when you are trying to hit a moving target you have to put more effort into it (aka work harder).
3. Mental development through timing and awareness.
4. Visual development through timing and awareness
5. Emotional development for dealing with actions that trigger stress (aggression).  Think of sparring as practice on how to deal with physical aggression.
6. Reflex development in the form of unplanned footwork and avoidance.  I used to do a lot of hiking.  Hiking in the woods requires the mind to be more active and alert than walking on the street.  Not only does the mind need to be alert but the body needs to be alert as you walk on uneven surfaces..  With sparring you aren't reacting to a pre-planned movements like a dance routine.  With sparring you don't know what is coming at you until you see the movement.
7. Burn more calories. 
8. People who train to fight also do other strength building and cardio exercises.

Keep in mind that sparring doesn't have to be brutal in order to get a good workout.  For me if someone really wanted to get the most out of Martial Arts health, they would train with the purpose of being able to fight with what they are training.  People should train yoga for the purpose of getting stronger.  That stuff is tuff.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 5, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. I prefer to train fighting skill, at the same time I can also get the health benefit.


You'll actually get more health benefit.  Training fighting skills is the healthy party.  Getting into real fights is the unhealthy part.  You'll be in the best shape ever as long as you can avoid the real fights that take a beating, and as long as sparring is not brutal.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 5, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> So then only those martial arts are capable of fighting..... of all the Martial arts that come from China.....sorry, no, it does not work that way.
> No Shuaijiao fighters so they cannot fight, no Wing Chun so they cannot fight, no tiger so they cannot fight, no Hakka styles so they cannot fight, no Baji so they cannot fight.... do you see the flaw here in your logic


No Jow Ga fighters either,, so I'm busted.  I can't fight.   All this time I've been "faking the funk." lol


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 5, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is what confuses me ALL THE TIME.  If you train your martial arts as a health system then you'll only get 50% health benefits.  If you train it like a fighting system then you'll get 100% health benefits.  This is what you miss out on when you only train a system for health.
> 
> 1. Proper fighting structure that engages muscles differently and requires more use of those muscles.
> 2.. Muscle strengthening through resistance when you are trying to hit a moving target you have to put more effort into it (aka work harder).
> ...


I see 2 reasons for this. The first is a fear of injuring yourself, which might or might not be legitimate. The second, which IMO is more common, is training to fight is more work. Training for 'health' means you don't have to put in as much effort, it's okay if you're not perfect with your movements, and you don't have to worry about a lot of the stress involved with fighting, or trying to improve yourself (if it's just "for health" there's no improvement that needs to be made).


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 6, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> if it's just "for health" there's no improvement that needs to be made


I guess my mind set is from me playing sports.  Because even with health it's always a goal to improve.  To be able to:

Run longer in time or distance
lift more weight or do more reps
move faster or move slower
to lose more weight or to gain more weight
For health purposes I don't want to be the same fitness level as I was when I started.   I always want to have some kind of improvement.  Even when things get to the point of where I'm not able to do as much as I did before. There is always something that can be improved.  For the things that can't be improved the it becomes more of a maintenance issue where I'm trying to reduce the degrading abilities / capabilities that naturally come with being getting older.

For me there is always a next level for mental, physical, or emotional improvement.  The only time I should stop trying to make these gains is when I get lazy (which is now) or when I can no longer  do anything.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 6, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> The first is a fear of injuring yourself, which might or might not be legitimate.


This is definitely a big fear when it comes to sparring.  For some reason people have the most horrific image and fear of being hit or kicked by someone else.  You woud think we were asking them suit up to go clean drug dealers and gang members out of a neighborhood by hand.


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