# Who here practices Lueng Ting Wing Tsun?



## Van Kuen (Oct 12, 2004)

Hey guys, I'm looking to continue my previously private wing chun training, with "public training" at the only local academy here in town. Unfortunately, it's a leung ting school. Everything I've seen, heard and read about their organization goes against my personal martial arts philosophies on how to conduct oneself. Not to mention the fact that their wing tsun seems to rely on brute force rather then relying on "softness" and structure of wing chun that you would see with other lineages. 

It seems to me that most of their upper echelon seems to be more about boosting their ego's and wallets, rather then passing on wing chun. The guys I've met were all cocky and didn't possess the humble nature that you would see in any good martial artist of any style. 

I heard from a good friend of mine at my muay thai school that a guy from there came in and wanted to use his wing chun, so he played with a novice fighter there, who consequently kicked his butt all over the place. They said the guy had been going to the wing chun place for a couple years, whereas the muay thai kid was only a few months into it. From what they know of wing chun from me, they told me that he was stiff, and could not adapt quickly enough, and had bad footwork. Doesn't sound too appetizing. I've also been told over the past few years from previous residents of the school that the higher forms are how do you say.....horded I guess. They don't want to pass on the information to the good martial artists, they want to pass it on to people who can pay. And from what I hear, pay a lot.

So then whats the deal guys? Can those of you that have had experience in this organization give me some background? Hopefully disprove all the bad press and my outlook? I'm in a major quandry because Im going through wing chun withdrawls now that Im interested in getting deeper into it, but my stepbrother doesnt teach it anymore, and there's nothing else here but the prementioned school, or I can opt for correspondance courses from Augustine Fong or Duncan Leung. Whose organizations I much prefer over "Great Grandmaster Leung Tings" (who titles themselves Great grandmaster and then can say they have no ego?)

A final note : I'm not trying to say this is how the school/organization is, moreseo, Im trying to say this is my limited experience with it. Im actually hoping that I am wrong in this assessment that I've been accustomed to so that I can join...but I would like to talk to those actually with some first hand experience prior to making any final decisions. Thanks guys.


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## ed-swckf (Oct 12, 2004)

i have no idea if this place still exists, but it is listed on wingchun.org:

<LI>*Realistic Self-Defense "Wing Chun Concepts"*
826 SW 38th St., San Antonio, TX 78237
Tel: (210) 434-8521
Contact: Rick Sanchez
Notes: System very well taught out to develop person's sensitivity to touch, speed of reaction, and economy of motion ... designed for women, men and preteens. Your action determines my reaction. 


it might be another option for you to consider if you hadn't already.


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## Van Kuen (Oct 15, 2004)

Get this guys...

I think to myself that I should give the benefit of the doubt to the guy that teaches here in SA...maybe he is not as bad as I remember him from so many years ago.  So I go down there again to check out the class.  

I go inside and say hi to the instructor...said I just wanted to check out the school.  The instructor has one of his asst guys come over and show me a video of their school and what wing chun is.   Afterwards, the asst says I can sit on the benchs just inside the training walls (as there is a office area in front).  The instructor sees my and my GF sitting there and says "Im sorry, we're not set up for spectators to just sit and watch.  It was my fault.  You won't know whats going by just watching so ask my assistant some questions."   I said "I don't mind just watching, I don't wish to interrupt your training."  To which he replies "You won't know what's going on without asking questions, Im not trying to say to get out, but we're really not set up for you guys to just sit there without asking questions, its just that the students will get self consience and all..."  I said "I understand I won't take any more of your time."  The younger assistant says "just ask a couple of questions..." probably noticing my getting fed up with the sifu's cocky and condescending tone..."I said okay...what are your fees and how many hours can I train?"  He proceeds to tell me a little about that.... 

So he's going thru some gor sau with another student there, there are two more pairs to include the sifu in one of them.  I ask then "is this all you're going to do all the class period?  He  says "yes".  I asked if these are the more advanced players because all they seemed to do right from the start was chi sau/gor sau.  He said yes for the most part.  We paused for a moment and the sifu again says "you dont understand what were doing...ask some more questions...."  His tone basically translated to "time to get out."  

I finally told the assistant, who was an assistant sifu, that I already had wing chun training from my brother, who learned in hawaii from Robert Yeung, and I knew full well what they were doing and how good they were at doing it.  I said thank you for your time and see ya later. 

Even my girlfriend, who knew nothing of martial arts, was pissed at how the sifu conducted himself.  She said he talks down to people and was cocky and wasnt even that good.  She said he didnt have the right character to run a school.  I agreed,  told her my story of how I talked to him about 8 years ago and he was the same way.  She said it didnt suprise her.  

I've always been one to think of a martial arts school as being a low key, humble place to train, wherein people are welcome and the teacher asks about the prospective student before insulting their intellect.  I will make sure to let everyone know of this guy's lack of good character.   Just thought I would share.  So far....Im not impressed with leung ting, his organization or the people under him.


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## ed-swckf (Oct 15, 2004)

wow, that is indeed a terrible attitude.


I must say though it does get annoying when timewasters come to your club, not that you are timewasting of course.  I think what i'm trying to say is a maxim i once read in a wing chun book, it goes like this:  

Practice courtesy and righteousness - serve the community and honour your family

I would love to visit that school just to feed my curiosity and be dumbfounded if the same thing were to occur, good luck in finding some training elsewhere.  Did you try that number i posted?


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## Drac (Oct 15, 2004)

From what I've been told all those associated with Lueng Ting Wing Tsun were a cocky bunch..What a way to promote your school..


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## Faye (Oct 17, 2004)

Please don't generalize and smear leung ting wing tsun
 base on your experience on a local group.  If whatever you said is true,
 SIMPLY WALK AWAY, as simple as that.  Find a good sifu and
 you'll see what wing tsun is all about.  I and my friends have quite
 the opposite experience here over many years: it is skill, not strength. 

 Aren't there bad apples in every walk of our lives?  good luck.




			
				Van Kuen said:
			
		

> Hey guys, I'm looking to continue my previously private wing chun training, with "public training" at the only local academy here in town. Unfortunately, it's a leung ting school. Everything I've seen, heard and read about their organization goes against my personal martial arts philosophies on how to conduct oneself. Not to mention the fact that their wing tsun seems to rely on brute force rather then relying on "softness" and structure of wing chun that you would see with other lineages.
> 
> It seems to me that most of their upper echelon seems to be more about boosting their ego's and wallets, rather then passing on wing chun. The guys I've met were all cocky and didn't possess the humble nature that you would see in any good martial artist of any style.


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## Gary Crawford (Oct 17, 2004)

here is a link you might find interesting www.sifugrados.com The tech of the month stuff is great.Good luck finding a school,but if you don't,take a little trip to Corpus Christy and check out Richard Castillo's Kenpo school.No bad attitudes there!


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## Flash25 (Oct 26, 2004)

Hi guys,

I just wanted to address this issue as I am the only Leung Ting WingTsun person on these boards, I think. I have never visited the San Antonio branch, nor do I know the instructor there. I cannot comment on or assess his behavior. What I can say is that we in the Leung Ting organization believe in promoting WT in the most positive light. 

Leung Ting resides over, possibly, the largest martial arts organization in the world. Due to its size, you find people of all different flavors. While we try to promote good instructors, not everyone is. Not everyone is the nicest and most hospitable person. 

As far as WT people being arrogant, they generally aren't. We do believe in the quality of our technique, and are quite confident in our abilities. Whether or not that is construed as arrogance is a matter of opinion.

Now, the money issue. I don't know what people consider is too much or too little when the costs of MA training is concerned, but I will say this, many WT instructors feel, myself included, that you should charge what the training you offer is worth. The best stuff gets charged the highest price. There are several reasons for this. 

The first is that we are not here to just give things away. It is not unreasonable for one to try and make a living from the martial arts, and still maintain both their integrity, and that of the art. Second, charging higher prices for higher level techniques goes a long way in ensuring that the people who are willing to put up $1000 for a particular bit of training are the ones who truly are interested in it, and the art as a whole. This helps maintain the integrity of the art.

On the issue of force in WT. I can assure you that we do not use brute force, and would put our principles of force against any other martial art out there. Now I don't mean to presume that other WC stylists, or other martial artists, like Tai Chi practitioners, are stiff as boards, nor do I believe that every WT practitioner is better than them. 

A point that I would like to make is that WT in America is not as developed as it is in the rest of the world. I got my start in Germany where you can touch hands with some of the best WT practitioners in the world at seminars on a monthly basis. Only within the past couple of years has the American organization really gained a bit of steam. Hopefully we will be able to grow this org. to a point where it is on par with the European one.

To sum this entire thing up, we in Leung Ting WingTsun strive to offer quality training in a structured manner. Everything is designed to progress a student in an efficient and thorough manner. We hope to produce quality practitioners and instructors in an art that we believe is among the best. 

Ben


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## eternalwhitebelt (Jan 18, 2005)

Hey Van,

 You might want to try Dragon Martials off of Vance Jackson.  I think their attitude is a little better than the school you went to.  I have been to the school you visited.  They are jerks.


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## bart (Jan 18, 2005)

You can't go wrong learning from Duncan Leung. If you have access, then I suggest it.


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## Mr_Scissors (Feb 11, 2005)

Ben,
Why do you think Emin moved away from WT? According to my sources, he felt that it had become too money oriented. Could you comment on that? 

All,
From what I have seen and felt, WT men are like liquid stone. They are not stiff and do not use brute force. IMHO their Chi-Sau is simply the finest in the world.

For reference I have trained with Inosanto and Ted Wong, both amazing fighters and masters of Chi-Sau, but not on the level of Emin Boeztepe(sp?). 

That said, i have also trained and sparred with manylevels of students in the WT organization. Often I have been unimpressed. However, those folks were all of low rank and everyone who is highly ranked has been downright remarkable.  Also, I don't necessarily equate good Chi-Sau with good fighting, one must always compliment one's training with other arts and theories, IMO.

My loyalty doesn't lie with any single style (I'm a JKD man) but I do hold WT in high regard.

As for attitude, that will always depend on the individual. While I do feel that certain environments breed certain attitudes, I don't think that it's up to the head of a world-wide organization to make sure that every single instructor remains courteous and personable all the time. 

A lot of Wing Chun or WingTsun players who seem to have bad or stiff footwork don't usually have the pelvis properly angled forward, that makes a major difference, especially in the sideling (sp?) stance.


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## bcbernam777 (Feb 22, 2005)

If you dont like it then find another sifu, however if there isnt one in your area then maybe for now you need to find another art to learn until a good sifu comes to town or you move to another area? If you you ever do want to study under a different lineage, and this is only if, then may I suggest to you someone who has studied under Choy sho Ting, or Wong Shung Leung, I know both of these lineages to be good and as for the Leung Ting Lineage I have no comment as I am not familier with it to a large degree. If you require any further asitance please PM me and let me know

 I must point out one thing, please I hope you dont think that these people are a representation of Wing Chun, there are plenty of WC instructors who are humble and are open to questions etc, please dont let this experiance burn you from WC, I study with a former student of Yip Mans and he is extremly humble, and generous to his students, remember that apart from Wing chun being an art it is also a human experiance open to the good and the bad.

Good Luck in your search.


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## TaiChiTJ (Feb 22, 2005)

Ah Yes. 

Leung Ting"s Wing Tsun. I could tell you stories. Stories of arrogance and ignorance. Stories of physical injury, sometimes LIFELONG physical injury as a result of the constant near cult-like repetition of one idea. "We are the bad boys of Wing Chun". 

Good grief if you want good, strong, positive wing chun, why don't you get Master Benny Meng's four tapes, get a few buddies and start working out in someone's garage or something? He gives good applications on the two tapes I have and you can catch up with him at one of the seminars he gives. He was at the Tai Chi Legacy in Texas last year. I was checking out some tai chi teachers and could not attend. 

But Master Benny Meng is really good. 

Other sources are Augustine Fong, Chong's Wing Chun, and the Hung Fa Yee branch. Google them.


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## Flash25 (Feb 22, 2005)

Mr_Scissors,

Sorry for the delay on a response to your question. I've been rather busy lately. As for Emin Boztepe, it is a shame the organization had to lose such a proficient fighter, but it was for the best. In regards to his motivation for leaving, I wasn't involved with what was going on, but I can say, from personal observation, that he probably did not take the moral high-ground and leave because of the taint of money within the organization.

From the people I've talked to, and the literature that is out there, it went something like this. Emin was the head of the American organization at least as early as 1994, which is when I started. The way things are set up, you run, and profit from, a national organization, and a cut of that goes to GM Leung Ting. In return you get exclusive rights to that area, i.e. you approve seminars, training, set pricing, etc. No one can operate within your sphere of influence without your permission. 

According to documentation provided by Sifu Kernspecht, the head of the EWTO, Emin was not giving GM Leung Ting his due. Sifu Kernspecht decided to intervene on Emin's behalf and take over the payments, which Emin would in turn pay to him. This is similar to a father taking over the loan payments of a son and the son paying the father back.

After this, other complications arose. Emin had traditionally done seminars in Europe under the auspices of Sifu Kernspecht. It appears that Emin was doing seminars in the EWTO without any consultation to Sifu Kernspecht. When approached about this, Emin claimed that it was his fame that brought success to the EWTO and the larger international organization. Because Sifu Kernspecht and GM Leung Ting were, in Emin's mind, making money off of his name, he should be able to do seminars were he wanted with total autonomy.

What followed were words back and forth between all three parties, and even an accusation by Emin that GM Leung Ting and Sifu Kernspecht had planned to have thugs jump him at a celebration in Europe. Much of what happened in the whole incident is a case of," It's my word against yours". Needless to say, the decision was made to terminate the relation of Emin Boztepe and the greater WT organization. Whether he was fired, or he quit, depends on who you ask.

My personal opinion on Emin is that he was a great fighter, a pretty good teacher, and a sub-par manager. I'll tell ya, I would not want to get into a scrap with this guy. He grew up tough. If you think blacks or other minorities face racism in America, try growing up Turkish in Germany. He was battle hardened from an early age, and WT only made him better.

I attended a couple of his seminars in Germany, and I have to say, he was a bit intimidating as a teacher. People whom I have talked to confirm that this was pretty much his M.O. His seminars were not the most organized events either. We would go through drills that he seemed to decide on the spot. This lent an uneven flow to the seminar. We once had to do a very simple and repetitive drill for nearly two   hours, not because we were learning the finer points of some technique, but rather one of his WT brothers came to visit and we trained while he chit-chatted.

In the time of his leadership of the American organization, I saw very little progress, and was reluctant to join because of his leadership. He was the "rock star" of WT and tended to live accordingly. It was well known that he was trying to break into the movie biz, and there was always a sense that the business of the American organization was to maintain his lifestyle. 

I realize that I may have painted a dim picture of Emin Boztepe, but he does have knowledge to give, and his EBMAS organization may be worth looking into. It's just that my past experiences lead me to side with the IWTA on this one.


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## Flash25 (Feb 22, 2005)

TaiChiTJ said:
			
		

> Ah Yes.
> 
> Stories of physical injury, sometimes LIFELONG physical injury as a result of the constant near cult-like repetition of one idea.


 
I'd like to hear this story.


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## TaiChiTJ (Feb 22, 2005)

I would rather not go deeply into the details. It involved a challenge fight to a local Karate school in the early eighties. None of us were forced to participate, of course, but I feel the attitude created in the school spurred us on. 

The knee injury the wt man sustained took many months to treat and although I have lost touch with the person, I am sure it effected any further training. 

I realize there are good people in the WT organization, you sound like one of them, however, witnessing this was a strong experience for me.


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