# Women in Wing Chun



## Si-Je (Jul 7, 2008)

I see too many women in MMA and BJJ and I'm having a hard time understanding, why?
On myspace I see women posting pictures of their black eyes like it's cool and wonder how to attract more women to the art of Wing Chun.  (maybe it's a U.S.A. thing)  I find more women in Europe and such involved in WC/WT but, what is the DEAL with the women in the states?
I don't mean to come off wrong, but I'm wanting to increase enrollment of women in our WC class.  
Just teaching a Women's self defense class isn't met with much interest I've found, like their all burnt out on the idea of taking a self defense class.  
Being a woman myself, and not being to understand my own sex is also very frustrating.  I don't usually meet many women that are studing any type of art much less Wing Chun.  This is very perplexing to me, since WC is so well suited to a woman.  It seems to me that women want to "learn how to fight like a man", and they feel that this is the only way to defeat a man.  ACK!
I've been held by that train of thought for many years when I studied other arts, I guess I'm just trying to figure out what their attracted to in a martial art so I can show that part of WC sooner to get their interest.
I've posted a bit here and there on the women's site, but I only get responses from men.  So, fine, now I'm asking the men.  lol!


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## geezer (Jul 7, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> ...what is the DEAL with the women in the states? I don't mean to come off wrong, but I'm wanting to increase enrollment of women in our WC class.  Being a woman myself, and not being (able) to understand my own sex is also very frustrating.  I don't usually meet many women that are studing any type of art much less Wing Chun.  This is very perplexing to me, since WC is so well suited to a woman.t.
> 
> I've posted a bit here and there on the women's site, but I only get responses from men.  So, fine, now I'm asking the men.  lol!



Hey Si-Je, I think we all feel the same way about this. At the moment I'm training in a garage with the guys. But when we open a kwoon again, we will _definately_ want to attract women...and Wing Chun/Tsun is perfect for them. Not to mention, if you can attract women, you'll definately get the guys to come in. But in the past when members of our group did teach publicly, it was really tough attracting women students. I thought it might be different for a female instructor. Apparently not. And it's not the facility either. My Si-dai used to run a really nicely equipped, clean, well-lit and "welcoming" kwoon... but he only had a couple of women students. Of course that was quite a while back, before the current fads of women's cardio-kick boxing and so forth. I'm coming to the conclusion that, in our culture, vanity and socializing are the biggest motivators. If you can convince the girls (and the guys) that WC/WT is _cool_, will make them look _fit_, and provide a good _socializing environment_, you might bring 'em in. Promising effective fighting and self-defense skills alone won't do it. Even my wife of 19 years will take aerobics, yoga, or pedal an exercycle at the gym (bo-ring), but won't touch WC/WT. Then again, considering her temper...maybe that's a _good_ thing!


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## LanJie (Jul 7, 2008)

I think that kung fu is almost not considered by people that do not have any knowledge or connection with it.  

I have studied Kung fu for almost 15 years and I have known only about three women who were serious kung fu students.

I have seen a number of women demonstrate in the local Taekwondo and Budo schools.

Though I have in the last few years seen a number of talented young women perform from Calvin Chin's Hung Gar School (Great School).

I think I would try to stress the economy of Wing Chun as system of self defense.  It is practical, has very few forms, and is very self-defense oriented.

I would like to see more women in general study kung fu systems but It may be that Chinese martial arts schools do not promote themselves as well as other Asian Martial arts.

I think If this changes more women will be kung fu practitioners.

P.S.
I know this part of Calvin Chin's web site is about training girls not women but It does a great job of selling kung fu to an audience that may have not considered it.  Take a look at the link and read the information box that is titled Girl Power.

http://www.calvinchin.com/news.htm


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## Kacey (Jul 7, 2008)

People in the US in general - both genders - have very little understanding of what martial arts are (beyond what they see in the movies) or that there are different types that are suited to different purposes - unless they are involved in a martial art themselves.  You're not attracting women because they don't know why they should come.  And while there are more women in MAs than ever before - it's still not something that's most girls' first choice, unless they know someone involved in it.  To increase your student population, you're going to have to educate your potential student base as to why they should come - because they don't know.


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## tellner (Jul 7, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> I see too many women in MMA and BJJ and I'm having a hard time understanding, why?
> On myspace I see women posting pictures of their black eyes like it's cool


The answer lies in the question.

Women do martial arts for the same reasons that men do even if the mix is a little different. A few more are there to learn self defense. Not so many are interested in picking up chicks  

But "too many"? 

Those two little words speak volumes about what _you_ believe women should do and why they should do it. Me? I prefer to support anyone who has a goal and pursues it wholeheartedly. If women want to wrestle, box and compete in a hard core physical contest more power to them. They shouldn't be limited, especially by people who are uncomfortable seeing them push outside traditional limits.

Yes, some of them will get black eyes and broken noses and bruises and the occasional splinted arm. And they'll be proud of it because it proves that they aren't afraid to do what they have to to be what they want.

MMA are flavor of the week right now and will be for quite a while. BJJ is an important part of the sport. Fifty years ago it was Judo. Forty years ago it was Karate. Thirty years ago it was Kung Fu. Twenty years ago it was Tae Kwon Do. Some day it will be something else. Right now it's the Octagon and Muay Thai and submission wrestling. Every time the traditionalists have decreed that women don't really have a place. And yes, that includes Wing Chun in spite of its creation legend.



> and wonder how to attract more women to the art of Wing Chun.  (maybe it's a U.S.A. thing)  I find more women in Europe and such involved in WC/WT but, what is the DEAL with the women in the states?
> I don't mean to come off wrong, but I'm wanting to increase enrollment of women in our WC class.


What's the deal? It's simple. These women have their own agendas and priorities. Since _they_ are not personally invested in _your_ martial art they look for what _they_ want. Some of them will end up in Wing Chun, but like the vast majority of people in martial arts or martial sports most will end up somewhere else. MA is a much more competitive business than it used to be. You can't show up with the Sacred Revealed Wisdom(tm) and expect people to line up and kiss your ring. The school and the student have to be the best match for one another. 

You can try to find the people who are interested in what you are offering. You can trick people into believing that they want what you are selling, although you won't keep many students for long that way. You can adapt to fit their needs if your conscience and standards will allow it. What you can't do is blame the market for not wanting or needing your product. 



> Just teaching a Women's self defense class isn't met with much interest I've found, like their all burnt out on the idea of taking a self defense class.


Are you teaching a women's self defense class in order to teach women to defend themselves, or are you doing it to get them signed up for Wing Chun lessons? I think I asked this in another thread. 



> Being a woman myself, and not being to understand my own sex is also very frustrating.  I don't usually meet many women that are studing any type of art much less Wing Chun.  This is very perplexing to me, since WC is so well suited to a woman.  It seems to me that women want to "learn how to fight like a man", and they feel that this is the only way to defeat a man.  ACK!



Not every woman who takes martial arts does it for self defense, not even every women who says that's why she's doing it. And yes, martial arts is largely a man's world. There are always more men than women who are interested in learning to fight. I won't argue how much is biological and how much is social. Let's just say that it's a fact. 

Women are involved in the hobby in much greater numbers than they ever were. And there are more schools which welcome them. Look at some of the recent threads where women have been forced out of traditional martial arts schools by teachers or other students who just don't take women seriously or think they should be there at all. Remember that it was much, much worse twenty years ago, let alone forty. I'm not that old, and I remember when women could expect to get the crap kicked out of them if they were even allowed in the door. The more "traditional" the school the worse it was. And the Chinese ones - yes even Wing Chun - were as bad as any. 

Mixed Martial Arts doesn't have that kind of history. There are some gyms where the air is slippery with free-floating testosterone. But the sport has more of a place for women and accepts them as customers the same as everyone else. 

Maybe what they're learning is "how to fight like a man". I'd argue that Wing Chun isn't that much better that way than most other MA. It's certainly got nothing on at least a dozen other systems I can mention off the top of my head. The point is to learn to fight at all. After that a person can argue that this method or that gym is a better fit. MMA is a recent evolution in a time that is more accepting of women in the martial arts. It doesn't have the history or baggage. It's not surprising that women from the same culture will likely find a home there. 



> I've been held by that train of thought for many years when I studied other arts, I guess I'm just trying to figure out what their attracted to in a martial art so I can show that part of WC sooner to get their interest.
> I've posted a bit here and there on the women's site, but I only get responses from men.  So, fine, now I'm asking the men.  lol!



Well, you've got one now. A classic third- or fourth-wave feminist response from a man who studies a traditional martial art and taught women's self defense pretty successfully for a number or years. Make what you want of it.


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## Empty Hands (Jul 7, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> On myspace I see women posting pictures of their black eyes like it's cool...



Because it is cool.  Duh.


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## mook jong man (Jul 8, 2008)

Si-Je good luck to you if you can do it, but i think you will be facing an up hill battle. 
I remember at our academy we had quite a lot of chinese women training but not many caucasian women so maybe it is a cultural thing.
 I remember handing out flyers at a railway station with a senior instructor because we were opening up a branch nearby and one lady i tried to give a flyer to looked horrified and said she was a pacifist, i replied you might be but your attacker wont.
 I am a second level instructor under Sifu Jim Fung and i can't even get my own wife to train, she would rather do billy blanks bootcamp dvds. 
I remember at our academy they offered boxercise classes which was basically just glorified aerobics but that class had more women in it than the regular classes did. 
Maybe this says that women are more afraid of putting on weight than they are of being attacked i don't know.
 All i know is that  the fitness industry seems to attract a hell of a lot more women than martial arts gyms do they must be doing something right and where doing something wrong. 
You might try advertising it as Wing Chunnercise or something , but seriously why not try pushing the fitness aspect, get them to do this for 15 minutes or so low heel kick left and right 10 reps each leg called out by you, then 30 secs of  chain punching, left  and right medium heel kick 10 reps ,30 secs of chain punching , then left and right dai sau and punch 10 reps each side, then tell them to go down into a low horse stance and punch tell them this will tone their buttocks and legs and prevent cellulite and then followed by push ups from their knees, then more punching and kicking do this for about 15 to 20 mins. 
We ended every class like this and we were doing it years before Tae Bo was even heard of. 
I'll expect to be seeing some Wing Chunnercise dvd's on the department store shelves this christmas and don't forget my percentage of the profits. What about going to a local high school and asking if you can teach a couple of classes to the girls i was sent to do this once and the young girls seemed to really get into it.
 But in all honesty i don't have an answer all i can say is hook em in first with the weight loss aspect then start adding hardcore techniques almost so that they are learning self defence with out realising it. Anyway good luck and tell us how you go.


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## mook jong man (Jul 8, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Because it is cool. Duh.


I must be from a different planet if looking like somebodies battered wife is considered cool.
 Maybe the time when one of my wing chun brothers accidentally elbow striked me in the mouth and my teeth were showing through the hole in my lip i could have put the photo on my space and been "cool" but they didn't have myspace in those days so i just went out drinking instead .


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 8, 2008)

You must remember that some people are just nutters. 
Hopefully it is only a couple of women who have posted these kind of photos (I haven't seen them), but I do know that there are women out there (in the UK we call them butch) who are just tough girls who enjoy pain and being in fights

I like pain and being in fights (not real fights - tournaments and the like, etc), but I wouldn't post my war wounds on the internet. That's just sad

But it is the same people who have horrific injuries and post them in magazines like 'Zoo' and 'Nuts' (sorry people who aren't in the UK)

Going back to the whole women thing - I have experienced this in every martial art I have done. Women tend to enjoy Tae-bo and boxercise but never take the next step

My (only) female student had a theory once. She said it related to savage times when humans were more like animals
Guys would fight over the women and the women wouldn't fight at all. Women were attracted to the scars and fighting prowess

I was hoping that we had evolved since then, but I still see it in clubs!! (Guys fighting over girls) 

It is a shame as the women I know who take up wing chun do very well in it. If you are promoting the class for women a good trick is to do something like 'Bring a friend and pay half fees'. Women who bring mates down often stay


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## matsu (Jul 8, 2008)

i work in a women orientated enviroment and i jsut asked them before posting back and actually mook hit the nail on the head.as did a few others posting...

its a fashion thing and sad but true WC is not commercial its not "fun" for keeping fit and it hasnt a trendy image....in most cases so they know little about it 
and actaully most women,although  would like to be able to defend themselves but arent actually prepared to go out and learn it.... again in the majority.

as mook said if you turned it into a fun trendy new chunercise and advertised it well enough you could develop a few hardcore into real wing chun but it is always going to be limited numbers.
pro rata- there are less caucasion men do WC than any other MA in my area due to the mainstream image and even the places that classes are available.

so your fighting a losing battle but with every one new take up your doing that person a great service so dont stop trying.,

matsu


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## dungeonworks (Jul 8, 2008)

I am all for women having the freedom to choose fighting, by any name.  Who am I to dictate???

Now, that being said, I am wholeheartedly against (against-meaning just myself) watching female combatatives and some women sports altogether.  I would not spend a dime to watch any of it.  Sorry ladies, but it simply boils down to interest, and in that I have none.  It isn't because of chauvinism or bias as it is just plain "unapealing to me".  It just doesn't get it for me.  WNBA basketball, USA Female hockey team...ect, I would rather watch the NBA or NHL.  When it comes to female MMA and boxing, well, it looks amateurish in my opinion is one of the most ridiculous sites ever to cross my eyes.  Speaking as a father, son, and brother,I hate seeing women get beat on be it by a competitor in sports or a jealous drunk boyfriend in a bar parking lot.

Women in the Dojang/Kwoon/Dojo:  I have yet to attend martial arts school that didn't have at least one woman nor have I been to any of the above where women were shunned.  Heck, I can think of two schools in my area that are owned and ran by women.  Even when I kickboxed, we had women.  Come to think of it, I have never heard of women having these issues aside the occasional internet posting of it.


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## Si-Je (Jul 8, 2008)

I like the idea of WC excersise.  I've already got a cardio program designed, and have certification to teach cardio kickboxing.  That was my origional intent to market the health benefits and get them into my cardio program to "trick" them in learning some of the moves of WC.  
I got that idea when we were teaching two years ago and when asking women who were watching the class if they'd like to try a class for free, they would reply, "No thanks, I take cardio kickboxing.  That should take care of it."  
I was appalled.  For women to use boxing style punches in the street make me cringe.  My Dad's broken every knuckle in his hands fighting that way one time or another.  And he's a tough dude!  I would not recomment women use striking that is ment for the wrists to be wrapped up and large padded gloves to protect the knuckles.

I could teach a women's self defense class that disguises" the monotomy of drilling WC technique and put it in a cardio format, to make them feel more comfortable just drilling for long periods of time (and that is what needs to be done for them to come away with anything of value).

But I didn't want to be decietful to folks, so I've only used it as strickly a cardio program.  They chain punch while kicking constantly, going from kick to kick, squats, the anti-grappling chain kicking (whatever it's called) right after they do sets of crunches to burnout, all to techno! 
Women really like it.
There are no deflections in the cardio class, just constant chain punching, and I don't focus alot of time to make sure the chainpunching is totally correct, just want to keep them moving.

It seems that many have very little faith in a the concept of a woman actually defending herself completely in the street.  Especially if her attacker has trained at some time how to fight in a MA.
Especially BJJ.  No one thinks the anti-grappling works against the power of a good BJJ fighter.  
This is all relative.  I'm trying to instill a different mentality in women with a women's self defense class.  If they don't do Dai sau just perfect before they leave my short seminar I'm not as bothered by the fact that when they leave that they have the mentality to fight.  

No hesitation,  with as little thought as possible.  The dai sau might not be perfect, but if they land a strong Heel Kick then they've still diffused much of the power of a hand strike.  I want to have a self defense class that is encourages the student to take the class again.  So that women can return to when they can to refreash what they learned the first time. Be it a week later 6 months later.
Just keeping to a certian set of techniques that will cover them for most encounters.  The more they come the better!  If they only come once, then any teacher can only HOPE that they take with them technique and a mental concept that will help them one day.

Some people think that this can't be done.  I'd still like to experiment with it and try it out.  (But I guess that one would never know if what you teach a student works until they've HAD to use it.  Same, same as when you teach a regular class.)


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## Empty Hands (Jul 8, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> I must be from a different planet if looking like somebodies battered wife is considered cool.



Any injury come upon honestly in the course of training is a badge of honor, not something to be ashamed of.  Certainly not a sign of abuse.  I applaud such women, as I applaud such men, for having the will to take punishment in the course of following their desires and their training.

It is sexist to look at any woman injured during training and seeing only someone's battered wife.


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## Empty Hands (Jul 8, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> When it comes to female MMA and boxing, well, it looks amateurish in my opinion is one of the most ridiculous sites ever to cross my eyes.



Try saying that to Irene (Tez)...but look out.


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## Si-Je (Jul 8, 2008)

Here's the video I put on the women's board to see what women though of it.





 
I thought it was totally awesome!  Others did not agree with me.


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## Journeyman (Jul 8, 2008)

Wonder if advertising it as Eternal Spring instead of Wing Chun would attract women more.


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## dungeonworks (Jul 8, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Try saying that to Irene (Tez)...but look out.



Maybe if I meant it to be insulting, but it is my opinion.  Seriously, look at the cream of the crop lady boxers and compare them with the likes of DeLahoya, Mayweather, or heck, the skills of any club level boxer.  Not to say there are no women fighters with skills nor that they are not tough!  I am talking a straight side-by-side comparison.   As I said, my intent is not to be insulting.


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## Empty Hands (Jul 8, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> Maybe if I meant it to be insulting, but it is my opinion.



Opinions can't be insulting?  Hmmm....


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## dungeonworks (Jul 8, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Any injury come upon honestly in the course of training is a badge of honor, not something to be ashamed of.  Certainly not a sign of abuse.  I applaud such women, as I applaud such men, for having the will to take punishment in the course of following their desires and their training.
> 
> It is sexist to look at any woman injured during training and seeing only someone's battered wife.




It would take a short stroll through the mall with the hypothetical injured woman to learn that the majority of the world is sexist.  I can just see the looks a man would get walking next to a marked up female fighter...because it is not natural or normal for a person to see a battered looking woman.  Many culture's laws and standards of etiquette throughout the years nurture this and it is not something that will be changed before the next 5,000 years.


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## dungeonworks (Jul 8, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Opinions can't be insulting?  Hmmm....



I gave reason for my opinion as well as noting I am not against women fighting at all...it just does not interest me in any way shape or form, so I don't watch it.

Is that insulting?


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## Si-Je (Jul 8, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> My (only) female student had a theory once. She said it related to savage times when humans were more like animals
> Guys would fight over the women and the women wouldn't fight at all. Women were attracted to the scars and fighting prowess
> 
> I was hoping that we had evolved since then, but I still see it in clubs!! (Guys fighting over girls)


 
Well honey, I'm a a Celt.  And way back in the day (3,000 years or so) women in Gaul fought with the men often in straight out battle.  Many warriors trained under a female before reaching a certian level.  Women were more equal in this aspect, although it isn't the caveman era.  People have always managed to find plenty to fight about, and I'm sure prehistoric women fought often.

The club mentality is another social, and cultural issue altogether.  And I've been seeing that girls and women are fighting more often in schools and such.  Just look on youtube, comegetyousome.com and click on fights.  You'll see some ugly stuff.  They had a big scandal recently about some teeage cheerleader gals in Florida that video taped like 3 or 4 of them beating up another girl.  like 3 to one.  They posted it on the web to embarrass the girl more.  So, they're now going to jail for assault.  
Point being, they've found more videos like this online recently.
Women are fighting eachother well enough.
Since their feeling so froggy, I'd like to have them jump to the idea of an art that focuses on serious street self defense as it's everyday curriculum.
Say, especially the girls that are losing these fights of 2 or more against one.
But, they like MMA and such better because they feel strong when doing it.  I guess inner peace doesn't sell.  lol!  

So, truely I'm giving up on this whole train of thought.  I'm probably gonna skip the women's self defense class altogether, and just focus on teaching my own daughter.  All these folks can continue to learn other arts, that really suits my origional purpose for taking MA in the first place.  To be able to defend myself against those that want to attack, however they wish to do it and with whatever style.

If women just don't get into Wing Chun, that's not my problem.  This whole experience has just bummed me out, and made me realize that it doesn't matter if people see WC fighting successfully against other arts, people will just see what they want to see, make excuses for why WC worked, even when given "proof" that the technique works.
Our students have always done well in tournaments and come back with metals.  But, who cares?  It's not changing anyone's mind.  

Peace out, 
Si-Je Nevermore.

P.S. thanks Mook Jong Man for some really good ideas and support.  Hubbie's combined Fung and Emin in a pretty neat style of WC/WT and I'm really happy about it.  Sorry to hear about Sifu Fung, I always wanted to get out there and train with him.


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## Empty Hands (Jul 8, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> ...because it is not natural or normal for a person to see a battered looking woman.



Why should we or any female fighter care about what a bunch of people in a mall think?  For that matter, it isn't normal anymore for a person to see a battered looking man.  The sooner women aren't viewed as "natural" walking victims the better.  As for any hypothetical bad **** going down in a mall because of a woman with a black eye, she could no doubt easily defuse the situation by explaining where it came from.  Problem solved!  If they didn't believe her, she could always offer to demonstrate her skills...


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## Empty Hands (Jul 8, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> ...it just does not interest me in any way shape or form, so I don't watch it.
> 
> Is that insulting?



No, the insulting part was where you claimed all female fighters were "amateurish."  Also, where you equated a female athlete competing in a ring with an abused women being hit by a boyfriend.  That demonstrates quite well how you see all women fighters, and yes it is insulting.


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## Kacey (Jul 8, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> Here's the video I put on the women's board to see what women though of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's not that people disagreed with you - the comments about the demonstrator were quite positive.  The problem was that it's not what many of us would teach when teaching basic self-defense to people who come in looking for something quick and simple and never intend to come back to the class again.  The two are separate issues.


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## dungeonworks (Jul 8, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> No, the insulting part was where you claimed all female fighters were "amateurish."  Also, where you equated a female athlete competing in a ring with an abused women being hit by a boyfriend.  That demonstrates quite well how you see all women fighters, and yes it is insulting.



Yes, from the pro female fighters I have seen, yes, they do look amateurish compared to the pro men figthers.    Don't blame me because it isn't appealing to me...there's lots of sports I don't like.  

To me, a battered woman is disturbing to me as well....be it from a sport fight or domestic abuse, a black eye, bump, cut, bruise, and fat lip from either looks the same.  Forgive my human side, but it doesn't look right to me and it is disturbing to see, hence my lack of interest in female combat sports and why I don't actively watch them.


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## dungeonworks (Jul 8, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Why should we or any female fighter care about what a bunch of people in a mall think?  For that matter, it isn't normal anymore for a person to see a battered looking man.  The sooner women aren't viewed as "natural" walking victims the better.  As for any hypothetical bad **** going down in a mall because of a woman with a black eye, she could no doubt easily defuse the situation by explaining where it came from.  Problem solved!  If they didn't believe her, she could always offer to demonstrate her skills...



Maybe since I am male, I was speaking from the male perspective???  I have been with a woman that had a facial injury from a car wreck, and believe me, I got looks and even some muttered insults.

As for why one should care what "a bunch of people in a mall think?", maybe it is the same as the answer to why one should care what anyone (including me) thinks....


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## Kacey (Jul 8, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> Maybe since I am male, I was speaking from the male perspective???  I have been with a woman that had a facial injury from a car wreck, and believe me, I got looks and even some muttered insults.
> 
> As for why one should care what "a bunch of people in a mall think?", maybe it is the same as the answer to why one should care what anyone (including me) thinks....



Well... the other side, of course, is the people who care enough to try help.  There used to be a young woman in the same class I train in - she was very, blond, very fair skin, and bruised very easily.  One day after a sparring class she was in the grocery store, and another woman saw the bruises on her arms and legs, came up to her, touched her very gently, and said something like "there is help available" - it's funny now, but the woman sincerely thought that the lady I trained with was being abused, and wanted to help her find her way out of the abusive situation.

If you train hard, earn battle scars, and are proud enough of them to want to show them off - more power to you!  But don't be surprised when people assume you got them another way.


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## dungeonworks (Jul 8, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> Here's the video I put on the women's board to see what women though of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought it was a great demo.  The only thing with it is that it would take quite a bit of time in Wing Chun to reach that level of proficiency in technique let alone sensitivity.  I believe the mindset of the "Womens Self Defense" crowd is to learn relatively quickly and somewhat easily/efficiently....ala Krav Maga.  In the 5 months I been in Wing Chun, I have yet to see anything that is learned quickly.  WC/WT is too intricate IMVHO to be minimized or "Fun Sized" if you will.  

You mentioned teaching your daughter.  Why not have her invite some of her friends, then their mothers.  Perhaps that is a way at them?  If they see their kids liking and growing with it, then maybe they will feel a need to try it out?  Not only that, but teaching kids, you have a clean slate to train.

Just a thought.


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## mook jong man (Jul 8, 2008)

Si -Je have you ever thought of migrating to Germany apparently Wing Chun is huge over there, heaps of people do it. 
Just on a side note if you do manage to get some ladies in , make them practice the low heel kick directed at the knee or the shin relentlessly.
 Get them to train for power on the pads and also for reflex by having the partner step in, also get them do do it from the ground.
 My wife who has hardly any wing chun training at all ( just couldn't seem to get her interested ) anyway i made sure she learned low heel kick and palm striking. 
She was walking down our street to the bus stop to go to work about 6 am in the morning and some scumbag jumped out and threatened her with a knife and demanded her hand bag.
 She wouldn't give him the hand bag so he pushed her to the ground and god knows how she remembered it but she cracked him in the shins about 3 times with low heel kicks and he hobbled off to his car and got away, she got a superficial cut on her arm but could have been a lot worse. The bloke was about 6 foot and solid build, my wife is 5 foot 3 same size as me, some people would say she should have given him the bag, but whats to say you give him the bag and he stabs you anyway.
 Just make sure you teach em that kick because it is a live saver and remember it doesn't matter how big and powerful some one looks they still have the same amount of skin covering their shins as what you and i have.
 Imagine getting a low heel kick from some one wearing stilletto high heels it makes my eyes water just thinking about it.


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## Si-Je (Jul 8, 2008)

We're building our kids class already.  When school starts it should pick up more.  I love teaching the kiddos.  But, my daughter is only 19 months old.  
I'm itching for her to get old enough to play with!  But, then I get more time in WC before I start training her.
We'll probably just go to local churches and teach Women's SD for free, if at all.  I've tried to get a SD class going so many times, and it's just too much frustration and dissapointment.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jul 11, 2008)

The Problem is women May see the benefits of fighting. But to them training in fighting is boring. I have found there are more Asian women who train that Normal American women. I went to a Wing Chun class in another city. There were about 15 men in their mid 20's-30's and one woman in her 20's along with one preteen male. When I was a child I wanted to learn Kung Fu but my uncle had me do akido. I really hated it because there was absolutly no real fighting involved. An In a fight I would have utlized boxing because the Akido didn't work with kids at my school. Everyone there did boxing and wrestling. It wasn't until my cousin took me a side an started training me in Wing Chun that actually had a chance to really learn how to fight properly. But in either case I always had desire for fighting in Gung Fu. Most women do not have a desire to fight. Therefore learning to fight is of no use to them. Some women who do have that desire to learn how to fight have been abused,molested,rape or they are currently living in fear. So they feel their only option is to learn self defense. But the problem is Many people don't know what Wing Chun is. I mean When my cousin was teaching me I wanted to learn the five animals. But He was like Wing Chun would go well with your structure. 

My Si Hing has a Wing Chun class offered to the public for free. There is only one female in that class. I took my wife to class once because she talking about learning self defense but after she got there and did the punching drills standing in Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma she quickly went an sat down. My lineage also utilizes what we call the Wing Chun Down Punch. This can be very hard on your legs especially holding it for along time. You have practice it regularly before your body can adjust. But when you first do it man you feel it. I think this took to Word Desire for Self Defense out of my wifes Mouth. lol...The Way I learn Wing Chun we stress heavy basics which is hard for your first time.


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## Si-Je (Jul 11, 2008)

I wanted (and still want to) have a women's wing chun class just for the ladies.  I probably won't even "call" it wing chun.
Problem I've seen is that most women don't learn the same way as the traditional "chinese" way of teaching.  They don't want to stand there and do drill after drill after drill (neither do I! lol! I tolerate it to get to the good stuff).  So...

I'd teach the class completely different.  Keep the gal's moving, almost like a cardio class.  Say, for the beginning of class start out stepping in basic doing heel kick with dai sau (or tan sau) and chain punching up and down the floor.

That way their "drilling" their chain punching but also working on stance, stepping, kicking, deflection, and structure at the same time.  So you can nit pick on their technique while keeping them moving.  This would show women the "complete" wing chun in action right away, so they'd know where these "drills" were taking them too.

Men seem to handle the "militant" atmosphere of drilling techniques and practicing fixed positions for a long time much better.  We chicks like to keep it moving.  That way they could work up a sweat, and you could plug the cardio and calestinic benefits of WC.  

Honestly, I'd probably play some music in the background to keep it 
upbeat too, much like a cardio class.  Like some good techno or dance music to make it fun.
And of course, boys aren't allowed! lol!  

That way the ladies can train without whatever hangups they may have with men, and feel more comfortable when they make mistakes, or feel unsure with new technique.  Which, WC is very awkward at first, and at times very, very frustrating!  This way they could be supportive of eachother without feeling intimidated, inferior, or "judged" by their male counterparts.  And when they get more comfortable with the style of Wing Chun, then of course, invite them to the co-ed class.

Plus, I've definately noticed that my attitude and demeanor is totally different than my male fellow students.  I have fun with MA and laugh when I make a mistake (this keeps me from getting frustrated when I do something wrong), I am more casual with drilling, and like to talk too.  

(Although I am just as SERIOUS about my training as men are with theirs, I just find it easier to relax while doing the techniques when I AM relaxed.)  I think women would have more fun in this type of environment, and wouldn't mind the stiffness and sorness of drilling if they had a good time doing it.


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## Gingerfox (Jul 18, 2008)

I am female and have been doing WC for only a short while.   I am the only female in an all male class.   At first I found it incredibly uncomfortable because I had the wrong attitude i.e. 'I cannot possibly do that' etc and to be fair, because I was female was expecting some kind of dispensation.  My teacher rightly treated me exactly the same as all the ohter guys - and from that I totally changed my attitude.  I love WC and I couldnt give a hoot if I am the only female.   As for females not being as good as men - get real - women fight all the time but in different ways - and when they do have to use physical violence they are vicious.  Just look at the examples you have in nature - its always the female that is more lethal.   I think woman just get their natural fighting spirit conditioned out of them by society.  Even in the MA world we are sold pink fighting gloves!!    This is actually my first post - so hello everyone!


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## naneek (Jul 19, 2008)

there are 9 females in the class i attend 4 of them are teenaged girls and aside from three who are recent members and therefore just beginning the others are very skilled and fast with their hands, i feel that perhaps women dont have the hang up that some men do on trying to put too much power into a techniqe before they get it right which i feel can impede learning - just my thoughts


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## naneek (Jul 19, 2008)

by the way welcome gingerfox enjoy the forum!!


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## Si-Je (Jul 19, 2008)

I agree that women seem to pick WC up faster at times because we don't have the strength to depend on, that's why I wonder why there aren't more women in WC/WT, especially in the higher ranks?  Especially in America.  Europe and Austraila seem to have that covered.

Maybe because schools generally only teach from 6-9 p.m. and many women are busy with the family thing at that time, or we need daycare for the mom's, or teach all day all night at a committed academy like Sifu Fung, I don't know.  Maybe a combination of time issues, child care, and (especially these days) money issues.  (most kung fu schools in DFW area charge 100-150 a month per person for class!

It seems to me that women are more interested in MMA, BJJ, karate, TKD here in the states.  Maybe because their more popular and they feel more secure in learning a familiar art.  I'm not sure.

Me, I wanted to learn the wierd art no one ever heard of.  That way they'd be really surprised when I used technique, lol!  I didn't want to learn what everyone else was into.  I wanted to learn something that most people couldn't counter.  But, I'm pretty perverse.


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## Kacey (Jul 19, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> Me, I wanted to learn the wierd art no one ever heard of.


I suspect this is the problem right here - not the weird part, but the "no one ever heard of" part.  Very few women, relatively speaking, are involved in any MA in the US; even fewer, therefore, would be involved in an art that is less common, because they wouldn't know to look for it, or know what it was if they found it.


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## Si-Je (Jul 19, 2008)

I know.  Sigh.. It's just very frustrating.  How do you educate an area about WC?  We've done demo's, competitions, each gaining us students and such, but to reach the mass of the people?!!
We'd have to do something drastic, I fear.  
Or, just wait the 30 years it'll take to "hip" everyone on to what WC is in the metroplex.


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## theletch1 (Jul 19, 2008)

The metroplex, sadly, is probably what it's going to take.  Aikido enjoyed a huge take off after Seagal hit the scene.  Karate took off after Norris hit the scene.  Kung fu took off after Carradine hit the scene with the tv series.  Sad but true.  It's just nearly impossible to get the attention of the american population with out sticking commercials in the middle of it.  There's an idea... you could stop your demos for 30 seconds and have someone try to sell something.


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## naneek (Jul 19, 2008)

is wing chun really so unknown in the states! it is fairly popular here in Nz though not as prolific as the various styles of karate my suburb has at least three kwoons from seperate lineages that i know of!


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## stickarts (Jul 19, 2008)

naneek said:


> is wing chun really so unknown in the states! it is fairly popular here in Nz though not as prolific as the various styles of karate my suburb has at least three kwoons from seperate lineages that i know of!


 Although its fairly well known among martial artists in my area, its not one of the more popular schools or clubs that you see around.


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## naneek (Jul 19, 2008)

seems a shame that so many miss out on such a rewarding art, wing chun does not always look pretty or graceful compared to other chinese systems perhaps this is a contributing factor to its lack of popularity?


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## mook jong man (Jul 19, 2008)

naneek said:


> is wing chun really so unknown in the states! it is fairly popular here in Nz though not as prolific as the various styles of karate my suburb has at least three kwoons from seperate lineages that i know of!


 
Naneek , would you be from Sifu Kevin Earles academy by any chance ? Wing Chun is very popular in Australia and New Zealand , a couple of my instructors were kiwis , very tough blokes . 

One of them ran his own security company working the doors of some of the toughest pubs and night clubs in NZ all the bouncers that he employed would learn train under him. 

He said that his Wing Chun techniques worked great against the huge Maoris , indeed one of his students was a Maori who even as a relative novice went into open tournaments in NZ just walking through opponents destroying their legs with his hook kick because that was about the only technique he knew .


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## theletch1 (Jul 19, 2008)

naneek said:


> seems a shame that so many miss out on such a rewarding art, wing chun does not always look pretty or graceful compared to other chinese systems perhaps this is a contributing factor to its lack of popularity?


 I don't think the gracefulness, or lack thereof, is much of a contributing factor.  The US is very much about the current fad in the media.  While we, as martial artists, are familiar with the great range of different arts out there the average person generally lumps ALL martial arts into the same catagory.  Right now BJJ and MMA are all the rage.  Why?  Because these are all over the television now.  If you were to come up with a prime time tv drama in which the protagonist used wing chun to defeat the enemies you'd have folks knocking down you door soon enough.  Most folks don't really take the time to research an art before they study it.  They see it on tv and think "Wow, that'd be so cool if I could do that" and go try it out.  Hopefully, once they've tried a class or two they'll be interested enough to do some research and find a style, school and instructor that suits them.


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## mook jong man (Jul 19, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> I don't think the gracefulness, or lack thereof, is much of a contributing factor. The US is very much about the current fad in the media. While we, as martial artists, are familiar with the great range of different arts out there the average person generally lumps ALL martial arts into the same catagory. Right now BJJ and MMA are all the rage. Why? Because these are all over the television now. If you were to come up with a prime time tv drama in which the protagonist used wing chun to defeat the enemies you'd have folks knocking down you door soon enough. Most folks don't really take the time to research an art before they study it. They see it on tv and think "Wow, that'd be so cool if I could do that" and go try it out. Hopefully, once they've tried a class or two they'll be interested enough to do some research and find a style, school and instructor that suits them.


 
Yeah imagine if you could be a writer for some of those hollywood shows i would have each episode involve Wing Chun in some way for eg in sex in the city instead of the girls going out shopping all the time buying shoes and hand bags i would have them join a Wing Chun school and do hard chi sau sparring for an hour.

What about desperate housewives instead of spending all their time trying to seduce the young gardener they could be critiqueing each others sil lum tao form . These are just a few of the ideas i have for when i break into 
hollywood as a writer.    :BSmeter:


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## theletch1 (Jul 19, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> Yeah imagine if you could be a writer for some of those hollywood shows i would have each episode involve Wing Chun in some way for eg in sex in the city instead of the girls going out shopping all the time buying shoes and hand bags i would have them join a Wing Chun school and do hard chi sau sparring for an hour.
> 
> What about desperate housewives instead of spending all their time trying to seduce the young gardener they could be critiqueing each others sil lum tao form . These are just a few of the ideas i have for when i break into
> hollywood as a writer. :BSmeter:


 Sil lum in the city?  Desperate chi sau?


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## naneek (Jul 19, 2008)

mook man im not from sifu earles academy, my sifu is anthony george. i dont have too much trouble with the maoris they are big but generally a nice bunch of fellas, tongans or samoans on the other hand can be nasty when they are drunk like everyone else can i suppose, just a lot bigger lol


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## Si-Je (Jul 19, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> The metroplex, sadly, is probably what it's going to take. Aikido enjoyed a huge take off after Seagal hit the scene. Karate took off after Norris hit the scene. Kung fu took off after Carradine hit the scene with the tv series. Sad but true. It's just nearly impossible to get the attention of the american population with out sticking commercials in the middle of it. There's an idea... you could stop your demos for 30 seconds and have someone try to sell something.


 

HAHAHHAHA!  This demo has been brought to you by,.. MIKE, just do it, and Condom Inc, when you need it, we have it!  LOL!
(sorry, watching UFC, they have an add for condoms on the butt of their shorts.  killing me!  I'm dying here, I'm dying!  The world is too amusing!)
I thought that after Kung Fu Hustle, people would like, "get it."


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## Si-Je (Jul 19, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Sil lum in the city? Desperate chi sau?


 

Two and a half Fuc Saus?
The Bong show?


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## Tez3 (Jul 20, 2008)

naneek said:


> mook man im not from sifu earles academy, my sifu is anthony george. i dont have too much trouble with the maoris they are big but generally a nice bunch of fellas, tongans or samoans on the other hand can be nasty when they are drunk like everyone else can i suppose, just a lot bigger lol


 

We have a lot of Fijians here who've joined the British Army, we have had loads of trouble with them sadly. As you said when sober great guys, brave soldiers but drunk they are a nightmare. They drink spirits and being big rugby players ( the main reason I have to say the army recruited them) are hard to take down.


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## ArmorOfGod (Jul 20, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> I see too many women in MMA and BJJ and I'm having a hard time understanding, why?
> On myspace I ..... wonder how to attract more women to the art of Wing Chun.


 
I have always felt there should be more emphasis place on the fact that a woman founded the style.  There is a little bit of argument out there that Ng Mui did not create wing chun and someone else did, but there will always be someone to argue every single fact in every single book.
I can't think of any other style created by a women any way about it.

AoG


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## Tez3 (Jul 20, 2008)

some food for thought about female fighters





 




 
Incidentally the MC on the second video is the ' arrested gentleman' I mentioned in my post on Si-Je's thread on self defence.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AaZ5kfXUj8&feature=related


there are very few women in MMA btw, only 15 active female fighters in the UK plus a handful of women more who train but don't fight. Very few women take it up, there will be far more women in WC than MMA.


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## Si-Je (Jul 22, 2008)

My husband and I have resolved the issue with self-defense.  It's a very serious problem in our area.  There was a serial rapist that was climbing to the second and third story to enter in women's apartments through the patios just a couple of months ago.
This type of weirdness is pretty constant.  I really don't need to throw staticts at the ladies, they've heard them all.

We're going to teach self-defense as a free class to the local churches (gas prices being a big limitator) and the gear hubbie will use when he's the "punching pad" will be the gear we work out with now.  (+a groin guard, and a throat guard)
This will give him more manuverability as an attacker, to be more realistic for the ladies.
We'll see what happens from there.  If they want a longer or on-going class, we'll offer that as well.  
And as soon as I get my butt in condition these next two weeks, I'll start the cardio class (WC style) and see what we've got to work with then.


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## JustAVisitor (Jul 30, 2008)

I'm a woman.
I started kungfu awhile ago, simply because i wanted to experiment 'something/whatever' chinese. It had to have a really 'asian' flavor, meaning be as much traditional as possible. My knowledge of martial arts then was limited to the TV show 'kung fu' with David Caradeen... I had no clue of what to expect, but i knew i was not interested in learning to fight unless there would be some sense in it. The philosophy, the ideal, the understanding that accompanied the training are what made me stick to it for so many years. The pains, bruises, injuries, humiliations (occasionally), calices, had a meaning, a purpose, a value. 
I would never endure this type of training for a medal, for pleasure, to defend myself or to be social. No f___ way. What i value the most in this type of training is the challenge, the constant learning, the rewarding work, the discipline, the humanity, the humility, the perspective on life. Learning to fight is part of the deal, and it is a very interesting aspect of the art. What i dislike about sparring though is the _'i'll beat the crap out of you and we'll figure out afterwards what works and what does not'_. I guess i am more a 'theory-to-practice-to-theory' person than a 'practice-to-theory' person... As a woman, using my brain before my muscles has always paid off... just using my muscles usually result in a lesser success rate.


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## The Last Legionary (Jan 6, 2009)

dungeonworks said:


> You know, I really thought you were a very smart guy in all of your other threads/postings...then you posted this, the most ignorant statement I have yet to read on Martial Talk.
> 
> You ever think they wrestled naked because they didn't have the hang ups on nudity modern society does, or that spandex wasn't invented yet???


*Yoshiyahu* has some serious hangups and is a petty blatant homophobe.
For his thoughts on what one should do with anyone who is gay, you might want to read this bit of "Wizdumb"


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## MJS (Jan 6, 2009)

*ADMIN NOTE:*

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

*Please return to the topic of this thread, which is Women in Wing Chun.  Also, please take note of the forum rules, specifically sections 1.8 and 1.9, which can be found here.*

*Mike Slosek*
*MT Asst. Admin*


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## Si-Je (Jan 6, 2009)

We don't use muscles in Wing Chun, you use your brain to outsmart the one that is "fighting" you.  This is why I'd thought women would be more attracted to Wing Chun than it seems is the response in the States.
Overseas classes are filled with women.  Here it's almost nil.
Maybe more exposure and education of what Wing Chun is all about is necessary, and that will most likely take years.  

Oh, to respond to a way later post.  I teach women's self defense to teach self defense, not to "trick" them into taking the regular classes.  The self defense class is far different than the regular classes.  I do encourage them to take more classes than just the one time self defense class, though.  Whether from us or some other style.  The more training the better the success rate in an attack.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 6, 2009)

Damn, they deleted that post allready. I just wanted to link it to my friends  But good job at keeping the forums clean moderators!


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## Si-Je (Jan 6, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1099576 said:
			
		

> Damn, they deleted that post allready. I just wanted to link it to my friends  But good job at keeping the forums clean moderators!


 
I must have missed something good.  Ignore list working well I guess.


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## tellner (Jan 6, 2009)

Si-Je, sorry to have missed so much of the thread.

If you live in Texas and are at real risk of violent crime you might want to consider backing your Wing Chun up with appropriate tools. Texas has very liberal concealed carry laws, and a .45 makes an unmistakable "Bang means No!" statement in flawless English, Spanish, Mongolian and !Kung click-dialect 

For a self-defense program, especially for beginners you have to give them as much as possible as quickly as possible. If they're interested there's time later for refined technique. What they almost always need is disinhibition, increased capacity for violence and a few simple tools. Chainsaw rather than rapier. It will make them less likely to be targetted, more able to flip the switch and fight if they are and more likely to do what they need to when they do.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 6, 2009)

> If you live in Texas and are at real risk of violent crime you might want to consider backing your Wing Chun up with appropriate tools. Texas has very liberal concealed carry laws, and a .45 makes an unmistakable "Bang means No!" statement in flawless English, Spanish, Mongolian and !Kung click-dialect


 




> For a self-defense program, especially for beginners you have to give them as much as possible as quickly as possible. If they're interested there's time later for refined technique. What they almost always need is disinhibition, increased capacity for violence and a few simple tools. Chainsaw rather than rapier. It will make them less likely to be targetted, more able to flip the switch and fight if they are and more likely to do what they need to when they do.


 
Thats some pretty good advice in my opinion!


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## Si-Je (Jan 6, 2009)

My moma always said, "if you carry a snowball, your going to be in a snowball fight!"  

I think that would apply to guns too.  
And, "being the fastest gun in the west means that everyone wants to shoot you."

I'd really rather not suppily a weapon like that to an attacker that took me by surprise, or may disarm me.  With a toddler around it's worse.  She can play with the billy club to an extent safely, but the very though of a gun that I have to carry regularly and that would be laying around too accessible gives me a heart attack!

But, I'd like to pass on what I know open handed to other women so as to take the initial fear away for the day to day.  And, if they wish, to make sure they have the ability and time to get to their gun.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 6, 2009)

> My moma always said, "if you carry a snowball, your going to be in a snowball fight!"
> 
> I think that would apply to guns too.
> And, "being the fastest gun in the west means that everyone wants to shoot you."


 




> I'd really rather not suppily a weapon like that to an attacker that took me by surprise, or may disarm me.


 
Thats one of the reasons why I don't carry knives or expandable batons with me. Plus where I'm from if you stab a guy you *could *getscrewed by the law even if you did so while defending from multiple *unarmed* attackers. It's considered you had the superior hand or something and you overdid the situation(hard for me to explain).

Hey, I heard something along the lines that now teachers can carry guns to schools in Texas becouse of all the school shootings. Is that true?


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## Si-Je (Jan 6, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1099742 said:
			
		

> Thats one of the reasons why I don't carry knives or expandable batons with me. Plus where I'm from if you stab a guy you *could *getscrewed by the law even if you did so while defending from multiple *unarmed* attackers. It's considered you had the superior hand or something and you overdid the situation(hard for me to explain).
> 
> Hey, I heard something along the lines that now teachers can carry guns to schools in Texas becouse of all the school shootings. Is that true?


 
Not that I'm aware of.  No guns are allowed on any school property.  But, they are trying to pass a law that would alow you to carry a gun WITHOUT concealing it. lol!
Just like the old west!  Go on down to cowtown and get you one of those old replica gunslinger holsters and slap that bad boy on yer hip!  I'm wondering what folks will vote on that one.  
Besides, concealed or not (especially not, lol!) I would think that defense against having you weapon taken from you from behind, or by surprise would now be your main concern when carrying a firearm.  Whereas, when unarmed you deal with the situation a little more directly and just attack the attacker with swift and blinding violence.   not having to worry about them getting lucky or taking a few shots just to grab your gun off your hip, out of your bag, purse, holster, whatever.  
Besides, you draw that gun, you better be full on ready to kill someone.  And I am not.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 6, 2009)

The Gun is two prone offensive weapon. If someone gets to close to shoot him them with the gun on their head alls you need is an inch then booom...But you don;t have to kill someone unless they got a gun. Best to shoot them in the knee caps. If someone has a knife and they are like 

three feet away from you. You run...They chase you pull your gun out aim it at them...chances are they going to run. I don't care who they are. Unless they got a gun they are not going keep coming for you. But if their crazy or something they might...But all criminals and thugs got more sense than that. Part of the terriority. You run when you see a gun or police. Thats what thugs do. They don't try to struggle with you for the gun like in movies. If they run you safe. But keep your gun concealed. A friend of mines wore two pair of pants. He had one pair of blue jeansthat had a little holster on the belt for his gun. The other pair were sweat pans that were big enough to go over the Jeans. So his gun was concealed an in Holster. You have go into his pants and open the holster to get his gun. Also you wear Bevs...Those are great for wearing over a second pair of pants to conceal weapons.

But I wish the no conceal law was in my state...right on man...i would vote for it. Just like in the days of Shaolin people carried Swords....The gun is equivlent to the sword...The people should have their right to carry swords. I gurantee you most of thugs I knew as a kid either had guns or knew someone who had guns. Its just the law abiding citizens back in the day who didn't have them...sad!





Si-Je said:


> Not that I'm aware of. No guns are allowed on any school property. But, they are trying to pass a law that would alow you to carry a gun WITHOUT concealing it. lol!
> 
> Just like the old west! Go on down to cowtown and get you one of those old replica gunslinger holsters and slap that bad boy on yer hip! I'm wondering what folks will vote on that one.
> 
> ...


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## Mystic Wolf (Jan 6, 2009)

What is up with the guns?
You have to get to the gun first, unless you walk around 24/7 with it in your hand.
Me personally, don't like guns. When I go hunting, I use a bow and a knife.
Ever gone hog hunting with a knife?


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## Mystic Wolf (Jan 6, 2009)

Now back on subject, are there any high level women WC/WT practitioners in the U.S.A.?


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 6, 2009)

I would perfer a spear and bow and arrow. I would keep a rambo knife on my side..I got get to another one...I lost it a while back...But ne way. Guns are the equivelent to the sword. Its the same way with the Sword. You have unsheeth your sword. You have unsheeth your gun too. But the same way with a knife. You still have to pull it out. What ever the weapon. My prefrence would be long pole. But the law won't allow you carry a Pole around with you. But a gun you can have a conceal and carry. Personally A Pole or sword never runs out of bullets. An will defeat any attacker with a knife. But the Gun is what is allowed in our society. I had a relative who shot 5 men dead who were trying to rob him. He didn't go to jail it was classified as self defense. But had he used his MA and bare hands to beat those guys to death with hands and feet. He might have done some time. Its easier to shoot them then to use your skills. That way if you die its not deemed as excessive force. Either you Iron palm the back of head and kill some of them or you shoot them all in the head and kill all of them. 

If we both went to court for self defence. I did shooting of only three men and you beat and killed fifthteen men with your bare hands. 

I would be consider a person who was trying to defend himself. You would be seen as a lethal weapon that was a threat to society. You would be seen as a monster. 

Its true guns don't kill people but people kill people! The Gun can be controlled or regulated but your skills in killing can not. If you can do what a gun can do. Then your uncontrolable threat that can't be taking away. If you got a gun, Society feels well all we have to do is take his gun away and he can't hurt us. But if you possess iron palm then how can society take your skill away. A gun is a weapon. But you who can kill with your bare hands are consider a living,Breathing,free thinking Walking Weapon.

I go free you don't

Your a threat!





Mystic Wolf said:


> What is up with the guns?
> You have to get to the gun first, unless you walk around 24/7 with it in your hand.
> Me personally, don't like guns. When I go hunting, I use a bow and a knife.
> Ever gone hog hunting with a knife?


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## mook jong man (Jan 6, 2009)

Mystic Wolf said:


> Now back on subject, are there any high level women WC/WT practitioners in the U.S.A.?


 
I have heard of one , and very feisty she is too , I think she goes by the name of Si-Je . 
Seriously mate , there could be a couple in the USA , but I think there is probably more chance of them being in Canada especially if they are chinese . 

In my experience a lot of Hong Kong chinese either migrate to Australia or Canada , nothing against the USA but it is probably easier for them to get in  because they are commonwealth countries . 

That being said there is probably more Sifus that have migrated to Canada and have senior female students .

 Also not forgetting Germany which is also a hotbed of activity because you have the Leung Ting empire over there and truth be told he's likely to have the most female WC/WT talent on the whole planet because he has so many schools .


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## Si-Je (Jan 6, 2009)

I know, bummer.  I thought Sifu Fung had a female Sifu in Hawaii, I could totally be wrong though.  I haven't been able to find her old school website anymore and can't remember the name.  (I saw the site almost 3 years ago.)

Fiesty, harumph, who me? :whip1:
I really don't qualify as a female sifu or advanced student.  I've yet to learn bui gee.  (I've gotten snipits of application but not the full form yet.) But, my training has been an on and off thing for the past 4 years, with work, marriage, and a kiddo, and now going back to school there's just always something breaking up my training time.  :drinkbeer  lol!

Yoshi, that analagy you gave of the gun being the sword of today and the sheathing and all made me think of "Romeo and Juliet" with Leonardo DiCaprio where their guns were their "broadswords" and "rapiers". lol!
Yes, I dig that movie, thought it was creative depiction of shakespear in a modern setting even if it was fanciful, that made the shakespearian speach fit in better in a make believe modern city.   Okay, like ya'll needed that visual! lol!

But, honestly, I just don't understand why there's not more female students, or sifu's in the states.  There are plenty of schools espectially in Cali, NY, up state, and such.  There's a LT WT school in Houston Texas I believe.  What's the dealie-ooooo?
I want to know, I want more women to teach!  I'm tired of playing around with the guys all the time, I want girl time too!  But all the fun tough girls go to MMA and kickboxing! arrrgggghhh! I'm not asking for much, just a couple, one or two?!?!  :tantrum:

sigh, okay, I'm done now.


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## mook jong man (Jan 6, 2009)

I was just thinking when you mentioned the guns , maybe it could be because you are allowed to carry guns and knives over there that there is less of a need to learn a martial art .

 Some people would probably think it is easier to buy a gun than to learn a martial art for a couple of years and have to invest a lot of sweat and time to get proficient . 

I don't know I'm just surmising , ladies over here can't carry weapons so they don't get a choice they either learn self defence of the hand to hand variety or they are likely to become a victim .


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## Carol (Jan 6, 2009)

Personally I'd love to see more women in Wing Chun too.  I know of a Sifu that wanted more female students in his class so badly he offered to train me at no charge if I would join up.   

The majority of women take on physical activity for weight loss.  MMA and kickboxing deliver that in spades...which leaves a bunch of us with just guys to bang on.


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## mook jong man (Jan 7, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Personally I'd love to see more women in Wing Chun too. I know of a Sifu that wanted more female students in his class so badly he offered to train me at no charge if I would join up.
> 
> The majority of women take on physical activity for weight loss. MMA and kickboxing deliver that in spades...which leaves a bunch of us with just guys to bang on.


 
That is very true , it is possible to lose weight through vigorous chi sau sparring . But in most reputable schools the women would have to be there for quite a while before she got to do that . So I can see the appeal for women in doing the high fat burning MMA workouts like combos on the thai pads , sprawling and grappling etc. 

There can also be a bit of an embarassment factor in chi sau , I had a lady student in my class once who was very well endowed in the chest department , and in chi sau you try to cultivate the reflex of your hands springing forward automatically if there is no counterforce . 

So what would happen is that sometimes  peoples hands would spring forward and accidentally touch her breasts , she didn't have a problem with it , she knew it was only training .

 But some of the guys had a problem with it and got embarrassed and sort of avoided pairing up with her .


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 7, 2009)

Well Thankyou Si-Je...lol...ha ha the romeo and juliet ha ha movie...i remember that now...Actually in my small opinion I think the who Romeo and JUliet storty was fanciful even in Shakesperes time thats why it was written and later became a play. Something for theather like are movies we watch on Television that depicts how life should be but not really true. Remember back in Shakesperes day no movies and DVD and Download. So Theathers,Plays, and stories had to be very very exaggerated and very very entertaining to hold the readers attention. Of course today it sounds over done. But many of our movies will sound over done in a hundred years.

But as for women don't throw a fit lol...ha ha...anyway why does Leung Ting have so many students. How did he make Wing Chun become so popular over in england? I mean really did he do it with out a media outlet how was he able to become so big? 




Si-Je said:


> I know, bummer. I thought Sifu Fung had a female Sifu in Hawaii, I could totally be wrong though. I haven't been able to find her old school website anymore and can't remember the name. (I saw the site almost 3 years ago.)
> 
> Fiesty, harumph, who me? :whip1:
> I really don't qualify as a female sifu or advanced student. I've yet to learn bui gee. (I've gotten snipits of application but not the full form yet.) But, my training has been an on and off thing for the past 4 years, with work, marriage, and a kiddo, and now going back to school there's just always something breaking up my training time. :drinkbeer lol!
> ...


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 7, 2009)

Man if I was sixteen and single I would have been her partner for life. I wish we had female classmates when I was a kid...

Nothing but hard bodies...lol...



mook jong man said:


> That is very true , it is possible to lose weight through vigorous chi sau sparring . But in most reputable schools the women would have to be there for quite a while before she got to do that . So I can see the appeal for women in doing the high fat burning MMA workouts like combos on the thai pads , sprawling and grappling etc.
> 
> There can also be a bit of an embarassment factor in chi sau , I had a lady student in my class once who was very well endowed in the chest department , and in chi sau you try to cultivate the reflex of your hands springing forward automatically if there is no counterforce .
> 
> ...


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## mook jong man (Jan 7, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Man if I was sixteen and single I would have been her partner for life. I wish we had female classmates when I was a kid...
> 
> Nothing but hard bodies...lol...


 
You would have been all over her like a rash , that's why if you were in my class I'd make sure I paired you up with the big , strong , hairy bloke , with a face only a mother could love.  :lol:


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## Si-Je (Jan 7, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> I was just thinking when you mentioned the guns , maybe it could be because you are allowed to carry guns and knives over there that there is less of a need to learn a martial art .
> 
> Some people would probably think it is easier to buy a gun than to learn a martial art for a couple of years and have to invest a lot of sweat and time to get proficient .
> 
> I don't know I'm just surmising , ladies over here can't carry weapons so they don't get a choice they either learn self defence of the hand to hand variety or they are likely to become a victim .


 
This is true to an extent.  But, the cost of buying a gun with all accessories, bullets, case, cleaning supplies, and paying for the gun classes you have to take to get licensed, and paying for the liscense would be the same as about 6-8 months fee to take our classes. lol!
Plus, many women have kids and don't want guns in the house.  We're allowed to carry and conceal, but many people still in Texas just don't like guns.  Their not a good thing to have in your life anyway you look at it.

Many women do neither.  Neither gun or self-defense.  They just depend on a boyfriend, or husband.  I hear that alot.  They just don't see an everyday need for training.  That's why I try to emphasise the fun of it too, health, and cardio, competition, whatever gets them all jazzed up about learning.  I'm thinking that's why the women's selfdefense classes aren't just filling up.
I've got to figure out how to market WC to the women in Texas.  Good thing I'm going to school for business! lol!
It's all in the marketing and such in running these things, all in your pitch, in your presentation, and representations.  People don't largely care if an art is superior, more practical, or effectient.  They want the fun fad that EVERYONE'S doing.  Until we can tap into that through mass media, your just not going to see alot of men or women in classes.

They've proven to me that women don't mind getting hit and slamed or treated rough in class, so, it's not because WC is a striking art.  They've proven to me that the women are just a competitive as the men and want to compete in the cage and such, so, women would compete for us at the school.  
But, unfortuanally, women have also shown me that they want to learn to fight, think, and be tough like a man.  This mentality is not conducive to WC /WT training whether your a man or a woman.  Just too much emphasis on brute strength.  I've been marketing "Wing Chun, strong enough for a man, but made by a woman!" lol!
I thought it was catchy and cute, and to the point.  But, it's the totally wrong slogan.  I need, "wing Chun, learn how to fight like a man by fighting with men."  
That's more like what women are wanting, from what I've seen.  

Well, screw all.  I'm about to chuck it off as a total loss.  I wanted a women's class just for the women I don't even have in class! lol!
(we have one now, just as of this week! )
I'll focus on training my daughter when she's a bit older and she'll be awesome before she's old enough to really understand the implications of what she's training, the politics, the blah, blah.  It'll just be the "ching chun" (that's how she says wing chun) that she runs around the living room singing everytime we play a video, the wing chun she already knows and loves.  Marketing hasn't gotten ahold of her yet. lol!


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 7, 2009)

As for classes...make sure you take Marketing and Advertising classes...That will help you. As you said women want to be see as strong and tough like a man. Because if they are strong like a man they don't need a man to fight for them. But a woman being strong like a man her size won't help her fight a woman who is bigger than her. Thats where the epiphanny will come. When they realize hey I am the same size as my boyfriend and I can beat his ****. But ole Fat Suzy down the street wore me out...She kick my **** up and down the street. Why Si-Je?


Well now you can tell them about not using force but redirection. Some women need experience. The whole thing about using leverage and redirection won't sink in until they realize they need more than just strength.

Yes, Women and some Men are not interested in Martial Art for self defence. They want to be able to fight hard. An destroy their enemy. They want to be tough. They don't want to be afraid. They want their enemies to fear them you know. Thats why I share Wing Chun as self Offense. It is Martial or War System. It trains you for combat. Defense sounds more passive. I know my Sifu didn't teach me self defense. He taught me how to hurt and shut down a person. My Aikido training was about Self Defense. Thats probably why it never worked. Wing Chun answer is if they attack you attack their attack. If they retreat gain contact an attack. If they stop you attack some more. One Sifu once said don't defend too much attack more. My Sifu always told me Wing Chun is a defensive Art. You attack when you move forward you attack when you retreat. You attack attack attack ruthlessly with out ceasing be relentless.

I think this will make women like Wing Chun alot more. It will be what their looking for. They want an aggressive Art. This is what Wing Chun is?




Si-Je said:


> This is true to an extent. But, the cost of buying a gun with all accessories, bullets, case, cleaning supplies, and paying for the gun classes you have to take to get licensed, and paying for the liscense would be the same as about 6-8 months fee to take our classes. lol!
> 
> Plus, many women have kids and don't want guns in the house. We're allowed to carry and conceal, but many people still in Texas just don't like guns. Their not a good thing to have in your life anyway you look at it.
> 
> ...


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## Si-Je (Jan 7, 2009)

I don't know!  :wah:
Must have just taken him years.  I'm getting impatient with that.  And we don't have enough higher ranking students to do demos everywhere every month.  



Yoshiyahu said:


> Well Thankyou Si-Je...lol...ha ha the romeo and juliet ha ha movie...i remember that now...Actually in my small opinion I think the who Romeo and JUliet storty was fanciful even in Shakesperes time thats why it was written and later became a play. Something for theather like are movies we watch on Television that depicts how life should be but not really true. Remember back in Shakesperes day no movies and DVD and Download. So Theathers,Plays, and stories had to be very very exaggerated and very very entertaining to hold the readers attention. Of course today it sounds over done. But many of our movies will sound over done in a hundred years.
> 
> But as for women don't throw a fit lol...ha ha...anyway why does Leung Ting have so many students. How did he make Wing Chun become so popular over in england? I mean really did he do it with out a media outlet how was he able to become so big?


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## Si-Je (Jan 7, 2009)

Oh man, they either say it's to passive, or they say it's too aggressive.  Can't seem to win either way.
They've always got excueses why they won't take it.  Their just not interested in it out here in Texas.  Too much flavor for TKD, MMA, JKD and BJJ.  Any other alternative art has a hard time out here, whatever the art.  Phillipino, Aikido, etc... Just not the status quo.
Will have to change that, or just be happy to stick to WC/WT tradition and just have a few students.  



Yoshiyahu said:


> As for classes...make sure you take Marketing and Advertising classes...That will help you. As you said women want to be see as strong and tough like a man. Because if they are strong like a man they don't need a man to fight for them. But a woman being strong like a man her size won't help her fight a woman who is bigger than her. Thats where the epiphanny will come. When they realize hey I am the same size as my boyfriend and I can beat his ****. But ole Fat Suzy down the street wore me out...She kick my **** up and down the street. Why Si-Je?
> 
> 
> Well now you can tell them about not using force but redirection. Some women need experience. The whole thing about using leverage and redirection won't sink in until they realize they need more than just strength.
> ...


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 7, 2009)

I think too aggressive is good. What is Muay Thai and Karate. But extremely aggressive.


You want Aggressive. Whats wrong with aggressive?


I never heard someone say it was too aggressive I wonder why someone would object to that?




Si-Je said:


> Oh man, they either say it's to passive, or they say it's too aggressive. Can't seem to win either way.
> They've always got excueses why they won't take it. Their just not interested in it out here in Texas. Too much flavor for TKD, MMA, JKD and BJJ. Any other alternative art has a hard time out here, whatever the art. Phillipino, Aikido, etc... Just not the status quo.
> Will have to change that, or just be happy to stick to WC/WT tradition and just have a few students.


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## Si-Je (Jan 7, 2009)

I don't know.  That's why I started this thread, to try to figure it all out. lol!
They either want more deflection and defensive motions because they don't want to hurt.  Or the style seems too soft compared to harder styles.  
Perception, perception.  We are all slaves to our perceptions.  And equal slaves to other people's perceptions.  So, my perception of their perception makes me a slave to their perception of what their perceiving about the art.  Even worse, I don't understand what their perception IS!  LOL!




Yoshiyahu said:


> I think too aggressive is good. What is Muay Thai and Karate. But extremely aggressive.
> 
> 
> You want Aggressive. Whats wrong with aggressive?
> ...


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 7, 2009)

Wing Chun is an aggressive art that uses deflections to hit and hurt. It uses deflections but only for attacks. You deflect your opponents attacks or blocks to create an opening.

For instance you punch and the guys blocks your punch. You then use sinking hand to make an opeing while hitting with the other hand and followed with your jum sau hand to attack. So you give him a one two punch after the jum sau.

But people will gravitate to it in its pure form. You can not repackage it two ways to serve to two different type of people. If they want a soft side martial art they can do Tai Chi or Taebo. If they want aggression they can do WC, MT or Karate!



Si-Je said:


> I don't know. That's why I started this thread, to try to figure it all out. lol!
> They either want more deflection and defensive motions because they don't want to hurt. Or the style seems too soft compared to harder styles.
> Perception, perception. We are all slaves to our perceptions. And equal slaves to other people's perceptions. So, my perception of their perception makes me a slave to their perception of what their perceiving about the art. Even worse, I don't understand what their perception IS! LOL!


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