# Bas Rutten



## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2006)

I've decided that this guy is dangerous to learn from. He plays by the two twenty principle which means when you weigh over two twenty you don't need a lot of principles. So much of what I have seen is stuff he gets away with for his size and I would not recomend his art to small framed people. However, if your big and burly I see no reason not to go. Just don't teach it to others.
Sean


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## Eternal Beginner (Oct 25, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> I've decided that this guy is dangerous to learn from. He plays by the two twenty principle which means when you weigh over two twenty you don't need a lot of principles. So much of what I have seen is stuff he gets away with for his size and I would not recomend his art to small framed people. However, if your big and burly I see no reason not to go. Just don't teach it to others.
> Sean


Well, I think this seminar is purely based on what is appropriate in an MMA setting and not self-defence.  The principles (or lack thereof as you assert) of his "art" seem to be very effective.

I have known people who have trained under him and their success rate as professional fighters has sky-rocketed.  So, I don't see him as the kind of guy who "gets away" with stuff because of his size since he usually fights guys of his size or larger.

Your implication that he relies on size and has no prinicples seems unfounded to me when talking about his coaching for MMA.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2006)

why does he demonstrate punches with a winged out elbows? Anyways you are right this isn't self defense its a sport and I am judging him on the self defense vid clip. My bad.
Sean


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## Cruentus (Oct 26, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> why does he demonstrate punches with a winged out elbows? Anyways you are right this isn't self defense its a sport and I am judging him on the self defense vid clip. My bad.
> Sean


 
A lot of times he is snaking around the persons guard to connect his punch on target.


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## thetruth (Oct 26, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> I've decided that this guy is dangerous to learn from. He plays by the two twenty principle which means when you weigh over two twenty you don't need a lot of principles. So much of what I have seen is stuff he gets away with for his size and I would not recomend his art to small framed people. However, if your big and burly I see no reason not to go. Just don't teach it to others.
> Sean




I like Bas' self defence dvd it's hilarious.  It should be titled 10 easy ways to go to prison.  But I believe anyone of any size can glass someone or stab them with a docket spike.  He seems like a nutcase and given what he teaches I would imagine his fuse to be quite short. 

Cheers
Sam


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## Cruentus (Oct 26, 2006)

thetruth said:


> I like Bas' self defence dvd it's hilarious. It should be titled 10 easy ways to go to prison. But I believe anyone of any size can glass someone or stab them with a docket spike. He seems like a nutcase and given what he teaches I would imagine his fuse to be quite short.


 
You guys seem to have a lot of misconceptions about Mr. Ruttan. He is an MMA fighter with a comedic personality. But, if you follow his interviews and such in the sports arena, you'll find that he is very professional and a good sportsman. He always conducts himself with exemplary sportsmanlike conduct when I have seen him; nothing to indicate a "short fuse." 

And although I would rather be asking attorneys and other professionals for use of force advice, for what it is, his MMA system seems very effective. If Winnipeg allowed my dog, I'd consider attending the seminar myself for my own self-improvement.... and I'm a tactics guy, not an MMA guy per say.

Paul


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 26, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> why does he demonstrate punches with a winged out elbows? Anyways you are right this isn't self defense its a sport and I am judging him on the self defense vid clip. My bad.
> Sean


 
Because although it is contrary to Kenpo philosophy to attack with "winged out" elbows it has been proven highly successful for Boxers and Kickboxers for years for a myriad of reasons such as evading a person's guard, increasing impact and travle time, using different angles of delivery, etc.

Short Version, because it works.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 26, 2006)

thetruth said:


> I like Bas' self defence dvd it's hilarious. It should be titled 10 easy ways to go to prison. But I believe anyone of any size can glass someone or stab them with a docket spike. He seems like a nutcase and given what he teaches I would imagine his fuse to be quite short.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam


Well head butting "every time" will most likely have you with a lot of blood in your eyes and at least one more opponent than you bargained for. Hey I just ended a sentence with a preposition.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 26, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Because although it is contrary to Kenpo philosophy to attack with "winged out" elbows it has been proven highly successful for Boxers and Kickboxers for years for a myriad of reasons such as evading a person's guard, increasing impact and travle time, using different angles of delivery, etc.
> 
> Short Version, because it works.


And I'm saying smaller framed people should tighten it up.
Sean


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 26, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> And I'm saying smaller framed people should tighten it up.
> Sean


 
Sorry, I've seen too many smaller framed people have success with very un-kenpo methods.  Kenpo works but it ain't the only tool in the shed.  In alot situations it's not even the best tool shed.


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## thetruth (Oct 27, 2006)

Tulisan said:


> You guys seem to have a lot of misconceptions about Mr. Ruttan. He is an MMA fighter with a comedic personality. But, if you follow his interviews and such in the sports arena, you'll find that he is very professional and a good sportsman. He always conducts himself with exemplary sportsmanlike conduct when I have seen him; nothing to indicate a "short fuse."
> 
> And although I would rather be asking attorneys and other professionals for use of force advice, for what it is, his MMA system seems very effective. If Winnipeg allowed my dog, I'd consider attending the seminar myself for my own self-improvement.... and I'm a tactics guy, not an MMA guy per say.
> 
> Paul



Maybe he has some good stuff to teach but suggesting the use of glasses and docket spikes for weapons and beating people because they took your bar stool is super unprofessional in my book.  Super funny but super unprofessional.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Shotgun Buddha (Oct 27, 2006)

thetruth said:


> Maybe he has some good stuff to teach but suggesting the use of glasses and docket spikes for weapons and beating people because they took your bar stool is super unprofessional in my book. Super funny but super unprofessional.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
To be honest I think that all of Bas Rutten's self defence stuff is just him taking the P*ss for the fun of it.
Like his Anti-******* Self-defence video. Classic.


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## thetruth (Oct 27, 2006)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> To be honest I think that all of Bas Rutten's self defence stuff is just him taking the P*ss for the fun of it.
> Like his Anti-******* Self-defence video. Classic.



At the end of the day I'm sure he has a good sense of humour (i certainly dig it) but one day when someone goes to court after stabbing someone with a docket spike and says they got the idea from Bas I don't think he will be smiling.  I'm not saying it will happen but in this litigious world we live in it very well could happen. A little irresponsible I would say.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## MattJ (Oct 28, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Sorry, I've seen too many smaller framed people have success with very un-kenpo methods. Kenpo works but it ain't the only tool in the shed. In alot situations it's not even the best tool shed.


 
HATER!!!!! J/K!!  :angel: 

KJ3 is right, winged elbows work to help cover the jawline. If you know the opponent is a headhunter (vast majority of SD situations involve the haymaker to the head), it doesn't make much sense to worry about guarding the ribs. Different tools for different scenarios.


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## Tez3 (Oct 28, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> Well head butting "every time" will most likely have you with a lot of blood in your eyes and at least one more opponent than you bargained for. Hey I just ended a sentence with a preposition.
> Sean


 
If you learn to headbutt (a Glasgow kiss as we know it!) properly it's very effective and you won't end up with a bloody head!


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## Shotgun Buddha (Oct 28, 2006)

thetruth said:


> At the end of the day I'm sure he has a good sense of humour (i certainly dig it) but one day when someone goes to court after stabbing someone with a docket spike and says they got the idea from Bas I don't think he will be smiling. I'm not saying it will happen but in this litigious world we live in it very well could happen. A little irresponsible I would say.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
But by that logic no-one should teach or say anything at all, in case someone mis-uses it. If he says something as a joke, I don't figure its his responsibility if some people don't get it.


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## thetruth (Oct 28, 2006)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> But by that logic no-one should teach or say anything at all, in case someone mis-uses it. If he says something as a joke, I don't figure its his responsibility if some people don't get it.



Trust me I think he is funny but why waste your time and money on putting out a self defence tape just for the amusement of others?  Why not put one out that is useful.  I havent seen the packaging for the tape. Does it say anything about the tape being for entertainment purposes only?  I don't care what he puts out but it seems to be a strange choice if its for the amusement of others

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Cruentus (Oct 29, 2006)

I'll bet a lot of amused people buy his material.


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2006)

Well.... we don't actually buy the tapes we get copies off our mates lol!


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## Eternal Beginner (Oct 29, 2006)

I just got back from a seminar with Bas Rutten.  Class guy, great teacher, very worthwhile stuff...and I am a "smaller person".  His stuff would definitely work for me.


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## Cruentus (Oct 29, 2006)

Gosh... you mean he didn't get really mad at everyone while not teaching "real" principles? 

lol, glad to here it went well!


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## Eternal Beginner (Oct 30, 2006)

All I can say is after seeing his "warm-ups" and his drills, anyone who is at all interested in improving their kickboxing and training in a very sport specific way should definitely look into the Bas Rutten workout DVD's.

I can now see why the guys who are training under him in the IFL have improved by leaps and bounds...the guy _definitely_ knows what he is doing.

And as far as 'principles' such as the 220 one mentioned earlier, I have to say his practices are the furthest thing from that.  All of the techniques we were shown were very workable for the smaller people in the class and he was incredibly patient with showing myself (the smallest person attending) and my son how to make all the techniques applicable for our stature and strength.  If he truly relied only on his size and brute strength, these would not be techniques easily adaptable to smaller people such as myself.

I haven't been to lots of seminars, but I have to say this one was worth every penny.  The little things he showed us, such as the combos that have worked in his experience and how to fight the "mental" fight as well as the physical one were fantastic.  I feel sorry for anyone who passed this seminar up and impressed with how many professional fighters put their egos aside and just listened like little kids at story time so that they could benefit from someone with the amount of experience that Bas has.

It was nice to see blackbelts from other systems do the seminar just like any other student.  Like my sig says "Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an injury to one's self-esteem".  Fortunately the pro fighters and bb's were willing to risk it and Bas treated them with respect so it wasn't necessary.  Good show by everyone involved.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 30, 2006)

Eternal Beginner said:


> I just got back from a seminar with Bas Rutten. Class guy, great teacher, very worthwhile stuff...and I am a "smaller person". His stuff would definitely work for me.


One more thing and I'll shut up. Punching with your elbows winged out damages you. The ball joint was not meant to punch while still in socket. Its a sport and an effective one at that, but you will have terrible arthritis and shoulder problems for the rest of your life after your short lived career. Enjoy.
Sean


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## MattJ (Oct 31, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> One more thing and I'll shut up. Punching with your elbows winged out damages you. The ball joint was not meant to punch while still in socket. Its a sport and an effective one at that, but you will have terrible arthritis and shoulder problems for the rest of your life after your short lived career. Enjoy.
> Sean


 
Depends on what kind of punch you are talking about. Hooks and roundhouse punches generally need to have the elbow up, to clear the opponent's shoulder. With proper core integration, shoulder use should not be a big problem.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 31, 2006)

MattJ said:


> Depends on what kind of punch you are talking about. Hooks and roundhouse punches generally need to have the elbow up, to clear the opponent's shoulder. With proper core integration, shoulder use should not be a big problem.


Your motion either damages you or heals you. There is no should not be a problem claus.
Sean


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## Shotgun Buddha (Nov 1, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> One more thing and I'll shut up. Punching with your elbows winged out damages you. The ball joint was not meant to punch while still in socket. Its a sport and an effective one at that, but you will have terrible arthritis and shoulder problems for the rest of your life after your short lived career. Enjoy.
> Sean


 
The arm was not meant for punching at ALL. Its meant for picking up rocks and bludgeoning other primates with it. Our body isn't designed as a natural weapon, we're tool makers.
So any method of punching is in effect going to be bad for us. For example, full extension punches where you staighten the elbow completely will end up damaging the elbow, especially if the practioner is still growing.
You know, those lovely straight punches which show up in karate? Teaching them to kids and and teens is a good way to really do some damage to them.


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## MattJ (Nov 1, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> Your motion either damages you or heals you. There is no should not be a problem claus.
> Sean


 
??????????? 

I do not understand what you mean.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Nov 1, 2006)

MattJ said:


> ???????????
> 
> I do not understand what you mean.


 
Im not either. I mean most physical training thats beneficial for your muscles for example, works by tearing the muscle so it grows back stronger.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 1, 2006)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Im not either. I mean most physical training thats beneficial for your muscles for example, works by tearing the muscle so it grows back stronger.


I'm talking about your shoulder joint. The body was not meant to with stand impact with the ball still in socket. The pretty Karate punches deal with this problem by taking the ball out of socket before impact. This is the ancient wisdom. And children should learn this... really.
Sean


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## Shotgun Buddha (Nov 1, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm talking about your shoulder joint. The body was not meant to with stand impact with the ball still in socket. The pretty Karate punches deal with this problem by taking the ball out of socket before impact. This is the ancient wisdom. And children should learn this... really.
> Sean


 
They also cause over-extension of the elbow and damage it instead. The body wasn't meant for striking at ALL, so any and all forms of striking can have repercussions later. The "safest" strikes involve elbow knee strikes themselves, because they are less fragile.
This is modern biology and science. 
When someone is still growing the risks and effects of over-extension are much higher. So no, kids should not be learning this, if they keep it up there's a high risk of damage.


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## Cruentus (Nov 1, 2006)

Boxing punches, at least the old style boxing punches, are the safest and least damaging way to punch anything. At least, that is my belief.

I have a multitude of clients who I have taught to punch this way; and they all report that it feels much better on their joints and body compared to other punching methods they have done (everything from modern boxing to "karate"); and it is more combat effective. This is even though these clients and myself do this on bags without gloves or wristwraps.

The reason why injuries occur isn't specifically because of "winged" elbows. It is because of a lack of support system. You can only strike as hard as your weakest link will allow. So your knuckles must be supported by your hand, which must be supported by your wrist, which must be supported by your elbow joint and arm, which must be supported by the ball joint of the shoulder, which must be supported by the body.

This is what Dempsey calls your "power line;" it is your support system that allows you to use the maximum amount of muscle/skelatel groupings to do the job. It is literally a line of support that runs from the center of your body to the middle of your fist (more towards the ring finger). 

If you try to force a particular knuckle or knuckels to land, as most martial arts systems do, you are often violating your power line, thus hitting with a weaker support system, thus opening yourself up for injury. Most modern "karate" punches will result in a trauma to the puncher if the punch does not land straight on; this is why with that method you don't see many hooks or uppercuts. Most Modern Boxing/kickboxing has the aid of gloves and wrist wraps, so techniques such as turning the punch completely over to land the top 2 knuckles developed. Hooks and uppercuts are often done well, but straights can cause trauma. This has led to rotator cuff injuries being probably the most common that I have seen among modern boxers or kickboxers.

But, you can still hit along your power line with straights, hooks, uppercuts, wild swings, or "winged" elbows; you just have to train with this power line in mind. This will maximize your power and reduce the potential for injury.

I will say that unless someone is actually hitting with some power rather then demoing, it is difficult to tell if someone is hitting along their power line or not. I will say that with bas Rutten, he appears to be hitting along the power line when he competes. That is partly why he is as old as he is and still healthy and competing and training fighters.

Paul


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## MattJ (Nov 1, 2006)

Nice posts, Shotgun and Tulisan. I was not really understanding what TOD meant. I know there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the "winged" punches. Many folks use them all the time. No more damaging than any other type of punch - assuming proper mechanics.



> The pretty Karate punches deal with this problem by taking the ball out of socket before impact. This is the ancient wisdom. And children should learn this... really.


 
TOD - Can you elaborate on this? I am not aware of any punching style that deliberately takes 'the ball out of the socket' .


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## Cyber Ninja (Nov 1, 2006)

I don't see what the big fuss is over this. Either you like the guy's methods or you don't. You can either attend his seminar or chose to stay home. Personally, I like the guy...he has a comedic personality. However, you cannot argue with his credibility in MMA competition. I like his instructional videos. Would I use everything he shows on tape? More than likely no, but I have found a few of his techniques useful.

Just my two cents...


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 1, 2006)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> They also cause over-extension of the elbow and damage it instead. The body wasn't meant for striking at ALL, so any and all forms of striking can have repercussions later. The "safest" strikes involve elbow knee strikes themselves, because they are less fragile.
> This is modern biology and science.
> When someone is still growing the risks and effects of over-extension are much higher. So no, kids should not be learning this, if they keep it up there's a high risk of damage.


I didn't say teach them wrong.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 1, 2006)

MattJ said:


> Nice posts, Shotgun and Tulisan. I was not really understanding what TOD meant. I know there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the "winged" punches. Many folks use them all the time. No more damaging than any other type of punch - assuming proper mechanics.
> 
> 
> 
> TOD - Can you elaborate on this? I am not aware of any punching style that deliberately takes 'the ball out of the socket' .


When your elbow is anchored you are allowed a more extended punch that is by defenition aligned with your body. I will conceed this method takes conditioning and know how, but that is the whole point of training. I would not recomend teaching kids to keep the elbow winged out because they lack conditioning. Train them to do it right and they won't hurt themselves... unless of course they quit and try to punch like that ten years later. Allright you guys have a small point, but a hat will cover that up.:uhyeah: 
Sean


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## Shotgun Buddha (Nov 4, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> I didn't say teach them wrong.
> Sean


 
You're missing the point, this has nothing to do with how that type of karate punch is taught. Its the technique itself. Punching that way with your arm fully straightened puts too much pressure on the elbow joint, the shock will damage the ligiments.
This is an especially big problem with teens, and similar effect occurs to their knee joints.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 4, 2006)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> You're missing the point, this has nothing to do with how that type of karate punch is taught. Its the technique itself. Punching that way with your arm fully straightened puts too much pressure on the elbow joint, the shock will damage the ligiments.
> This is an especially big problem with teens, and similar effect occurs to their knee joints.


First of all, I never said lock out the elbow. This is a resistance punch, and it is not recomended for a person standing at contact range. Our students know that if you don't feel it at the verticle, you abandon this punch. Its not all that difficult.
Sean


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