# Its All There.



## MJS (Oct 23, 2006)

Many times, when the debate of cross training comes up, we hear mixed views.  Some state that there are things that are lacking, while the other side states that there is no need to look elsewhere, its already in the art, you just need to pull the info. out.  

So, my question to the Kenpoists...how do you feel about that?  Do you feel that what you're doing is the full package?  Do you cross reference other arts?

I'd like to hear from all of the Kenpoists on here, Parker, Tracy and Kaju!

Mike


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## IWishToLearn (Oct 23, 2006)

I'm from the IKCA Kenpo side of the fence - but believe me we all hear that constantly from all sides.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 23, 2006)

Alright, I'll go ahead and get the ball rolling.

I'm from the Tracy lineage.  I think the art, in how I understand it, is a fairly complete and comprehensive fighting art.  But it doesn't do everything equally well, and it doesn't have everything in it.

A lot of techs have jujitsu type joint manipulations.  But there doesn't seem to be any ground grappling, at least not how it was taught to me.  If this is in there, then I guess I got short-changed.  I am not convinced of the ultimate need to be able to grapple that some seem to tout.  It is a legitimate method to fight, and to be well rounded it makes sense to have some skills here, but I remain unconvinced that it is an absolute necessity to save my butt from some random street thug.  I don't do cage matches, so my need to have highly developed ground skills is less.

I think it could use a better arsenal of weapons defenses.  Some seem OK to me, but a number of them I think are pretty sketchy, esp. the knife defenses.  Use of a knife or stick is lacking as well.  These are kind of common things to get ahold of, so it makes sense to have some training in their use, in addition to defending against them.

Other systems have a methodology and approach to fighting that is very different from Kenpo.  While kenpo is a fairly complete and comprehensive system, it also follows a methodology and it certainly does not have the same kinds of things that other arts have, that follow a different methodology.

Tibetan White Crane, and Wing Chun are good examples.  They each have a very specific approach to training and fighting and power generation, and they are very different from each other and from kenpo.  Striking techniques are notably different, as they utilize methods that are rather unique to the art, esp. in comparison to each other.  There are techniques in Tracy kenpo that have elements that are similar to both White Crane and Wing Chun, but it definitely does not have the same range of techniques that these arts specialize in.  But kenpo has its own approach, and White Crane and Wing Chun don't duplicate kenpo either.

I was never taught any internal energy work in my kenpo training.  I see discussion indicating that perhaps it is in there, but I never learned it.  What (little) I know about internal energy, I learned from my tai chi instructor.  I think that if you want to learn this kind of thing, perhaps you would be better off finding a good tai chi teacher.  While Kenpo may have it, I think it won't be on the same level, and other methods probably do a better job.

I see that there is some Tai Chi that has been brought into Tracy's system, and I think this is a nod to the fact that if you want this kind of training, that is the place to go to get it.  I haven't learned Tracy's tai chi, so I cannot comment on its quality, but the fact that this was brought in to fill this need sort of recognizes that the original system had shortcomings in this department.

So I guess the way I see it is that Tracy kenpo is a "complete" system in its own right, but no, it does not have everything, and it doesn't do everything equally well.  But this is true of any art.  There is always room for improvement in certain ways.

An art follows its methodology, and in some ways is limited by that.  When two arts have very different methodologies, you cannot simply mix and match techniques and expect them to work.  You need the base upon which the methodology and techniques are built, and if you don't develop that base, you cannot expect to import its techniques and expect to be able to use them.  So no art can really have everything.  Even basic striking methodology is different enough.  White Crane has ways of striking that few other arts use, because the way we generate power is really quite different.  Kenpo, or any other art that doesn't have a similar methodology, could not use our white crane strikes effectively.  But White Crane would never see the point in using all the kenpo self defense techniques.  It is just a huge difference in philosophy.

Kenpo was my first art, beginning in 1984.  I cross train now in several arts.  But this isn't because I was trying to fill holes in my kenpo.  It was because I suffer the curse of the perpetually curious, and I wanted to experience different things.  In doing this, I have gained a different perspective that allows me to see problems in kenpo that I might have been blinded to otherwise.  And at the same time, my kenpo training was tremendously valuable in training these other arts, and seeing shortcomings that they have.  So I guess maybe I have filled holes in my arts thru my crosstraining, but that was not my motivation for doing it.


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## Benjp (Oct 23, 2006)

Really, the only self-defense that I find useful are among the restorative nature, which are directed against my primary opponent "old age".  My sensei incorporates a lot of primary yoga postures in our workouts.  

So I have started "cross training" by taking a yoga course.  I've also started taking pilates and find them useful for building core strength, which helps with low stances, strong strikes, excellent balance, and high degree of physical awareness.

I've been able to incorporate a lot of what I learn in these non-martial systems back into my kempo..

I would also like to study in other systems though..  I've recently become very interested in capoeira.  Also, at some point I would like to get a little exposure to a technique based kenpo (like kajukenbo, EPAK, or SL-4).

Ben


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## michaeledward (Oct 23, 2006)

I think there is a certain measure of 'You don't know what you don't know'. There may very well be meaningful information in other systems. But, I have been concentrating on learning one system. 

Follow along, if you will. 

I am working on my personal black belt form. And I can't seem to come up with something that isn't covered in the system. My instructions were to create a form with 12 techniques, covering the eight angles of attack and defense.  Some additional guidance from Mr. Planas was to demonstrate my knowledge ... don't just string together a dozen techniques that have been given to me through the American Kenpo system. 

Ok ... so I have those instructions, and I am trying to 'Think Outside The Box'. I stage the first attack in the form a Step Through Right Punch from 12 O'clock ... all of a sudden, I am doing a self defense technique that looks an awful lot like Thundering Hammers. I don't want to do Thundering Hammers. I want to get to the Outside of the attack and drop the attacker. But it sure looks like Thundering Hammers to me. 

Allrighty then, my second attack is going to be a Step Through Left Punch coming at me from 9:00 O'clock. I'm going to be creative and original on this attack .... let's see .... Left Outward parry, and a right upward elbow to break the arm. ... Oh crap, isn't that the opposite of the Crossing Talons break version .... Oh, sure, I'm sweeping the leg out from under him, rather than driving him down from the arm, but ... damn, it's not original there either. 

Next technique ... a Left Step Through from 3:00 ... and I end up with something that looks like the opposite of Circling the Horizon. 

Really, Honestly, I'm trying to be original, like Mr. Planas told me. But I keep ending up with an American Kenpo technique with a bit of tweeking to it. 

As a theme to my form, I have selected 'Parries', which in turn dictates that I am reacting to a weapon in motion. But, I think, if I were to work against Kick, or grabs, or weapons, I would find myself doing variations of what is covered in the 150 some odd techniques of American Kenpo.

So, from my little black belt personal form, the question becomes, what nature of attack is missing from the system? It may not be the only question, but with my experiment, it is the first one that would need to be addressed. I think.

Mike.


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## parkerkarate (Oct 23, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> Alright, I'll go ahead and get the ball rolling.
> 
> I'm from the Tracy lineage. I think the art, in how I understand it, is a fairly complete and comprehensive fighting art. But it doesn't do everything equally well, and it doesn't have everything in it.
> 
> A lot of techs have jujitsu type joint manipulations. But there doesn't seem to be any ground grappling, at least not how it was taught to me. If this is in there, then I guess I got short-changed. I am not convinced of the ultimate need to be able to grapple that some seem to tout. It is a legitimate method to fight, and to be well rounded it makes sense to have some skills here, but I remain unconvinced that it is an absolute necessity to save my butt from some random street thug. I don't do cage matches, so my need to have highly developed ground skills is less.


 
I had rememberd watching a Tip of the Week with Mr. Tatum talking about grappling. Here it is.

http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week22/TipOfTheWeekMedW22.html


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## Andy Moynihan (Oct 23, 2006)

MJS said:


> Many times, when the debate of cross training comes up, we hear mixed views. Some state that there are things that are lacking, while the other side states that there is no need to look elsewhere, its already in the art, you just need to pull the info. out.
> 
> So, my question to the Kenpoists...how do you feel about that? Do you feel that what you're doing is the full package? Do you cross reference other arts?
> 
> ...


 

It's all about more tools in the box. Not every tool does every job, but if you don't scout out all the "hardware stores" how will you know what tools exist to pick from?


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## Carol (Oct 23, 2006)

"...its already in the art, you just need to pull the info. out. "


I think there is a lot of truth to that, but I think there is more to applying Kenpo than just pullling the info out.

Bladed weapons, for example, are part of my FMA training.   Someone told me recently that nearly everything that can be done with empty hands (in Kenpo) can be done with a knife.

I think there is a ton of truth to that.

However, I don't necessarily think that everything in Kenpo necessarily _should_ be done with a knife.  Nor do I think that willingness to use a deadly weapon, cutting ability, grips/gripping or even the legal implications of brnadishing a weapon are addressed by translating empty-hand techniques.

Traning in bladed weapons is not something that can be used in every circumstance.  Nor is it something that interests everyone.  I don't think Kenpo is at all deficient.


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## Hand Sword (Oct 24, 2006)

I think one should study their style *intensely*. However, you should also not be hesitant to see what other ways there are. You don't have to study a whole second style, you can be specific to your studies. Remember the style that you study had a founder, so it's built around their specifics. Eventually, you have to find your way of making the system serve you. You have to keep your eyes,mind and ears open in your studies.


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## Sigung86 (Oct 24, 2006)

I feel your pain on the originality gig.  There are only a finite number of targets on the human body, and a finite number of weapons to hit them with.
Investigation reveals that there are only a number of sub-definitions for this finite number of targets and weapons, 
1.  Ineffective
2.  Less effective
3.  Effective
4.  More effective
5.  Most effective

The idea of thinking outside the box may, in fact, not be what you want to do.  Instead, think of an attack, look at the options that you already have, and then look at the finite number of weapons you have, and try to envision a way to use what you already don't use.

For example.  In Tracy's method there is a technique called Darkness.  It is a defense against a right flank, right punch.  It becomes, after Kenpo fashion, a massacre for the attacker (poor attacker).  However, looking at it through the eyes of "what isn't there", it evolved a right punch defense that turns into a wrist lock that turns into an arm restraint that turns into a face down or back down throw of dynamic nature, and great effectiveness.  It also, is taught, at my school, to law enforcement and military personnel.


No one said it would be easy.  Heck!  If it were, anyone could do it, and it wouldn't be special.  Going for a Black makes you very special.  I imagine that there are any number of folks who would be more than happy to help if we can.  Just don't be afraid to jump out and ask.  

In my best Charlton Heston imitation, "No Man is an island"... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## CoryKS (Oct 24, 2006)

For the enthusiast, it would be difficult to find a point where you think you have everything you need.  Flying Crane mentioned perpetual curiosity, and that is a trait of someone who is passionate about their thing.  

It would be like asking my father-in-law, the craftsman, how many screwdrivers he needs.  The man has every tool known to man and some that I can't figure out what they do.  He's got mass-produced tools and expensive hand-crafted ones that he orders from a catalog.  Me, I have one flathead that I use to turn screws, open paint cans, and pop dandelions.

I think the reason we hear mixed views on cross-training is that people have different levels of interest in MA.  Some people are looking for a tool to do a job, while others just really, _really _love the tools.


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## HKphooey (Oct 24, 2006)

CoryKS said:


> For the enthusiast, it would be difficult to find a point where you think you have everything you need. Flying Crane mentioned perpetual curiosity, and that is a trait of someone who is passionate about their thing.
> 
> It would be like asking my father-in-law, the craftsman, how many screwdrivers he needs. The man has every tool known to man and some that I can't figure out what they do. He's got mass-produced tools and expensive hand-crafted ones that he orders from a catalog. Me, I have one flathead that I use to turn screws, open paint cans, and pop dandelions.
> 
> I think the reason we hear mixed views on cross-training is that people have different levels of interest in MA. Some people are looking for a tool to do a job, while others just really, _really _love the tools.


 
Great point!  I already gave you some rep points so you will have to settle for a pat on the shoulder.


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## Sigung86 (Oct 24, 2006)

I must need to take my Geritol a bit more frequently.  I looked at the long answer I posted above (I'm not able to delete or edit it), and suddenly realized that it got posted in the way wrong place.  It was meant for another thread entirely! 
My apologies for anyone who read it and went ... 

Hey Dan! ... :whip::whip::whip:
No!  I'm not around the bend yet... Well ... No ... Honest ... Well ... I didn't mean to be... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Carol (Oct 24, 2006)

Doc Chapel gave you that good of a workout, eh Dan?


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## zDom (Oct 24, 2006)

CoryKS said:


> Some people are looking for a tool to do a job, while others just really, _really _love the tools.



Really REALLY like that line. Well said.




			
				Andy Moynihan said:
			
		

> It's all about more tools in the box. Not every tool does every job, but if you don't scout out all the "hardware stores" how will you know what tools exist to pick from?



Also like THIS one a lot 

(Sorry didn't mean to interrupt you Kenpo folk -- was just lurking in your corner of MT listening, but I REALLY liked these analagous comments)


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## MJS (Oct 25, 2006)

Sigung86 said:


> I must need to take my Geritol a bit more frequently. I looked at the long answer I posted above (I'm not able to delete or edit it), and suddenly realized that it got posted in the way wrong place. It was meant for another thread entirely!
> My apologies for anyone who read it and went ...
> 
> Hey Dan! ... :whip::whip::whip:
> No! I'm not around the bend yet... Well ... No ... Honest ... Well ... I didn't mean to be... :lol: :lol: :lol:


 
Hit the RTM (report to mod) button on the post in question.  Its the little red triangle.  Type in where you want it moved, and I'll take care of it for you. 

Mike


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## MJS (Oct 25, 2006)

Thank you all for the great replies.  

I asked this question because many times, the idea of crosstraining seems to be frowned upon in many Kenpo circles.  I'll admit, that there are many areas that are covered, but I feel that there many be times when expanding upon those areas, in order to get a more in-depth look, may be necessary.  

My school that I go to, is very open to the idea of cross training other arts.  A number of the instructors are Black Belts in Arnis, therefore, they can give more feedback to the weapon techniques.  Another trains in BJJ and many of those drills have been added in or are worked regularly.

I'm not suggesting that someone take up another art, but at the least, if you cross reference those other arts, some valuable info. may be discovered.

Mike


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## Flying Crane (Oct 25, 2006)

You know, part of the benefit of cross training is in experiencing different methodologies altogether.  This might have nothing to do with filling holes in one art or another.  It might just be about finding the approach that fits you best.  

My comparison earlier with kenpo, white crane, and wing chun makes sense in this respect.  They all approach fighting in a very different way.  I'm not saying one is better than the others, and I am not saying that one necessarily fills "holes" that the other has.  But you might find that one fits your physique or personality better, and is therfore a better art for you to practice.

Many people in the Chinese arts train several different styles.  Eventually they will focus on just one style and that becomes their specialty.  But having the experience with many styles is what makes it possible to make that decision later.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2006)

Its not that your art is not complete, but that no instructor can possibly give you completeness. They only live so long.
Sean


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## KenpoDave (Oct 25, 2006)

I think that the kenpo I study is relatively complete and comprehensive, limited by the abilities and experiences of those who have taught me, and of course, me.  There is more to kenpo than my personal perspective will ever realize, and I find it useful to cross train because more often than not, the perspective from "the other box" reveals something in my kenpo that I had not seen before.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 25, 2006)

This topic again?  Mike:  you either have too much time on your hands, a medium term memory problem, or else you just like to stir things up!

There is a lot in Kenpo.  More than most people know.  More than I know.  But is it all there?  No.  It's not.   You will find the missing-or-hard-to-discover pieces faster by trying an art that focuses on those.  Try an FMA for knives, Kendo for swords, Judo or wrestling for throws, and sub-grappling or BJJ for submissions, Krav Maga for gun disarms.  

And, as far as the Tatum tip of the week on grappling,  I am sorry, but that is an example of where the best expert in Kenpo clearly displays that grappling knowledge is not in Kenpo.   This tip of the week was laughingstock in the grappling community for several weeks when it came out.


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## MJS (Oct 25, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:


> This topic again? Mike: you either have too much time on your hands, a medium term memory problem, or else you just like to stir things up!


 
OFK..whats up man!  Its been a while!  How've you been?  As for the question...yeah, I know.  I guess you could say its a little of all three!  LOL!   Gee, just imagine how this thread would be if some others were still here!  

Mike


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## Hand Sword (Oct 25, 2006)

MJS said:


> Thank you all for the great replies.
> 
> I asked this question because many times, the idea of crosstraining seems to be frowned upon in many Kenpo circles. I'll admit, that there are many areas that are covered, but I feel that there many be times when expanding upon those areas, in order to get a more in-depth look, may be necessary.
> 
> ...


 
That's why it is a benefit. No one in your Kenpo class will shoot, and grapple like a BJJ blackbelt, or fight with weapons like a FMA artist. That experience is what you need to try your Kenpo out against. It's real feedback. If it's good and works against that, it's good!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Oct 25, 2006)

When in doubt, cross-train. I've been one of those dirty mixers who goes out to different systems that specialize. It has not only expanded my horizons in different diemnsions, but has also made my kenpo better on different fronts.

Lots of stuff in kenpo is short-hand versions of moves from other systems; moves Mr. Parker -- and even Mr. Chow -- was exposed to early in his/thier martial careers. Palm-heel take down is a short-hand version of Osoto throw. Want a really wicked palm-heel takedown? Drill the osoto with judoka for a year.

The problem with learning short-hand first is that one misses many of the vital mechanical distinctions they might have picked up, internalized, and economized had they started with the long-hand version first.

Kenpo is a specialized response methodology to a constrained stylistic range of attacks (i.e., it does not address directly the best way to escape a fully engulfed mata leon, block a shoot, or cover against a boxer on the inside). It can be broadened to encompass more, but most kenpoists do such a poor job with the specialized focus to begin with, that they have no business broadening applications. Better off to put some time into alternative, complementary specializations.

Regards,

Dave


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