# 12, 24, 32 tech systems?



## Gotkenpo (Mar 26, 2007)

I see that different organizations offer different numbers of techniques for each level or ranking. What are the pro's and cons for each number?  Arent the techniques you learn in the beginning the base for all the techniques that come later? By that I mean a yellow belt technique might be the beginning of a more advnaced technique that gets much more in depth at the higher ranked levels. Is that the case?

Beau


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## michaeledward (Mar 26, 2007)

Beau, 

In some cases it is true that the Yellow belt techniques are part of a larger technique at a higher level, but not always. 

Belt systems, I believe, came about to show progress, and to collect fees. 

In American Kenpo, there are approximately 154 techniques and then some extentions - depending on whose system you are observing. If a studio can test you 10 times (15 techniques per belt), they can collect 10 testing fees. And you will advance one belt level every four or five months (assuming one technique per week & a couple of weeks review). If however, the studio teaches a 24 technique system, there will only be 6 or 7 testing fees, and your belt progression will be slowed to perhaps every 7 to 8 months. 

Different instructors have different methods of keeping students attending class and paying for knowledge. 

My instructors' instructor tells me that in order to put on a black belt, a student should be proficient in those 154 (or so) techniques. He is less interested in how many colored belts I went through to get there. 


Now, if you turn to the structure of Ed Parker's American Kenpo, as laid out in his Infinite Insights books, there is a reason why his techniques are broken out in the 24 technique per belt format. But, those reasons become less important once you achieve proficiency (black belt).


I would say that what is truly important, if your choice is to study American Kenpo, is that you find a competent teacher that can work with you through the complete system. In this way, you will gain not only knowledge of self-defense techniques, but you will also gain an understanding of the guiding rules and principles of motion that make up the system.

Good Luck.


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## Gotkenpo (Mar 26, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> Beau,
> 
> In some cases it is true that the Yellow belt techniques are part of a larger technique at a higher level, but not always.
> 
> ...


So the main reason for the difference is a financial one? If Mr Parker had a reason for the 24 technique system, why would there be a reason to change that? I understand that Kenpo is supposed to be an ever evolving system that should not remain static but such a change for money just doesnt seem right...


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## michaeledward (Mar 26, 2007)

It may not be a change for money. 

Maybe the instructor put in a format that allows students to progress more visibily, moving from one colored belt to another in three months time, instead of six. 

It may be that an instructor that opened a studio did not understand Mr. Parker's reasons for having a 24 technique per belt format. Combine that with the --- how did you put it --- _ever evolving system_ ---you speak about, and maybe they implemented a change to leave out techniques he or she did not fully understand. 

Some schools I know of, only show half of the system for a student to get to Black belt, and then as the student advances through 2nd and 3rd and 4th degree black belt, the instructor 'backfills' on the missing information. 

The motivation may not be money, as much as it is 'keeping the student'.

Don't let the idea of an '_ever evolving system_' be an excuse for a poor teacher, poor studio, or poor kenpo. 


But, all of that is really irrelevant, if you find yourself a good teacher. 

Look at the reference guides here, and at kenpotalk. Ask the local teachers what their curriculum consists of, and see how it compares. In the old days, there was no way to know how a studio set up their material. Today, it really is quite easy to find Ed Parker's Standards.

Incidently, I study at a school where we learn 16 techniques on each colored belt. We learn 20 techniques for each Brown. Our degreed black belts have a few base techniques, along with the extentions. It really is more about the teacher, his or her philosophy of teaching, and what you wish to get from your training. 

Oh, yeah, and in some cases - it is about the money.


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## Gotkenpo (Mar 26, 2007)

Thanks for your insights....

I want to learn a system that is true to what Mr Parker imagined and the only way to do that is through his students who are teachers. That is where the confusion comes in. I am confident that Mr Conatser will be a valuable teacher and trust that he will lead me on the path I am searching for. I just see so much confusion and bickering in this "Family" and I dont understand why it is like that or why the different opinions and/or logic behind those opinions cause so much turmoil. I have been reading about the "Successor" debate, about different instructors within the Kenpo community, about the different "styles" of Kenpo within the Kenpo community. If American Kenpo was taught by one man, why is it that there are so many diferent variations and organizations each of which claims to be "the one".


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## Flying Crane (Mar 26, 2007)

Gotkenpo said:


> Thanks for your insights....
> 
> I want to learn a system that is true to what Mr Parker imagined and the only way to do that is through his students who are teachers. That is where the confusion comes in. I am confident that Mr Conatser will be a valuable teacher and trust that he will lead me on the path I am searching for. I just see so much confusion and bickering in this "Family" and I dont understand why it is like that or why the different opinions and/or logic behind those opinions cause so much turmoil. I have been reading about the "Successor" debate, about different instructors within the Kenpo community, about the different "styles" of Kenpo within the Kenpo community. If American Kenpo was taught by one man, why is it that there are so many diferent variations and organizations each of which claims to be "the one".


 

well, from what I understand, Mr. Parker was teaching different things during different times, spanning over 30 years.  This reflected the fact that his own ideas were changing, as his experiences grew.  So, when someone studied under him is a reflection of what they learned, and what they now teach.  

People who claim to be teaching things "exactly" as Mr. Parker taught it to them, may be telling the truth.  But that doesn't mean Mr. Parker taught everyone the same, during the span of his teaching career.  

Just stay out of the politics.  You will be happier for it.


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## michaeledward (Mar 27, 2007)

Beau,

I would not say that 'American Kenpo was taught by one man'.

I would more likely say 'American Kenpo was developed by one man' - and then add the caveat 'with the help of many, many students'.

As for why there is fractiousness within 'American Kenpo', I might ask you to look at the Self-Defense Studios in your area, and figure out how many have the owner's name in the name of the school?  I find studio names fit into one of two prominent naming structures.

Owner's Name Karate/Tae Kwon Do/Kung Fu
City or Town Name Karate/Tae Kwon Do/Kung Fu

Looking only at the former ... why is it that Studio Owners feel compelled to call their studio by their name, and not someone else's - say 'Ed Parker American Kenpo Karate'?

(Incidently, you see this same naming structure on Auto Dealerships)

And, if you are studying with Mr. Conaster, or one of Mr. Conaster's students .... you're doing great. Don't worry about all the other crap, 'cuz it's just crap.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Mar 27, 2007)

It is HOW the techniques ARE taught that matters, not HOW MANY.


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 27, 2007)

I don't agree that this is all about the money. Americans couldn't and wouldn't stand for the white belt until brown belt method. They need to see progression and therefore the belts. Yes, most styles charge for rank tests. It is up to the instructor to turn that cost into a value for the student. My tests are not only a student regurgitating material, but rather a seminar of sorts. Yes, the student must know his/her material and be able to perform it at a certain level of expertise, but I want my students to come out of it having learned something, even if that is simply more indepth knowledge of an already known technique.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 27, 2007)

Gotkenpo said:


> I see that different organizations offer different numbers of techniques for each level or ranking. What are the pro's and cons for each number? Arent the techniques you learn in the beginning the base for all the techniques that come later? By that I mean a yellow belt technique might be the beginning of a more advnaced technique that gets much more in depth at the higher ranked levels. Is that the case?
> 
> Beau


Yes.


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## IWishToLearn (Apr 6, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> It is HOW the techniques ARE taught that matters, not HOW MANY.



Agreed.


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## Gotkenpo (May 1, 2007)

I guess another question would be as follows, If kenpo has a set number of techniques as originally taught by Mr Parker, and some teah 12 per rank some 24 per rank and some 32 per rank, does the school teaching 12 per rank have more ranks between white through black or have they eliminated techniques that they feel are unnecessary or outdated?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 1, 2007)

Gotkenpo said:


> I guess another question would be as follows, If kenpo has a set number of techniques as originally taught by Mr Parker, and some teah 12 per rank some 24 per rank and some 32 per rank, does the school teaching 12 per rank have more ranks between white through black or have they eliminated techniques that they feel are unnecessary or outdated?


 
In general nothing is eliminated.  It just shows up later.

*32 tech system*

orange - purple - blue - green - extensions - finished

*24 tech system*

yellow - orange - purple - blue - green - 3rd brown - 2nd brown - 1st brown - 1st black - 2nd black - 3rd black - finished

*16 tech system*

yellow - orange - purple - blue - green - 3rd brown - 2nd brown - 1st brown - 1st black - 2nd black - 3rd black - 4th black - 5th black - finished


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## Blindside (May 1, 2007)

Gotkenpo said:


> I guess another question would be as follows, If kenpo has a set number of techniques as originally taught by Mr Parker, and some teah 12 per rank some 24 per rank and some 32 per rank, does the school teaching 12 per rank have more ranks between white through black or have they eliminated techniques that they feel are unnecessary or outdated?


 
If you look at most big-name martial arts pioneers/style founders, the arts they teach go through a change over time.  This may be because the founder is still learning and he/she is incorporating those changes in over time, or the teaching methodology of the system changes.  Either way it really screws with someone trying to get authority from "what so-and-so originally taught."  There are some Parker schools of kenpo out there that don't have "kenpo names" for their techs beause their lineages derive from before that nomenclature came into use.  They might argue all the silly names are from SGM Parker "going Hollywood,"  does that matter to you?  They are certainly "more original" whateve that means.  If you run into a tech in a form that isn't part of your AK curricullum that is a fossil of a technique that used to be in there, is it a problem to you that other Parker lineages might retain those techs?  Don't worry about the number of techs, don't worry about their order, just train.

Lamont


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## Gotkenpo (May 1, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> In general nothing is eliminated. It just shows up later.
> 
> *32 tech system*
> 
> ...


So based on this, would a 1st black in a 24 tech school not have the same exposure to the material as a 1st black in a 32 tech system? And how does it effect the equality or continuity of the ranks from school to school as far as knowledge goes? Also would this mean that a person in a 24 tech school could theoretically earn a black belt with less material knowledge than one in a 32 tech school? Just to make it clear, I am very interested in this art and am just looking for understanding and by no means intend for these questions to offend anyone. Thanks for your replies


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## Blindside (May 1, 2007)

Gotkenpo said:


> So based on this, would a 1st black in a 24 tech school not have the same exposure to the material as a 1st black in a 32 tech system? And how does it effect the equality or continuity of the ranks from school to school as far as knowledge goes? Also would this mean that a person in a 24 tech school could theoretically earn a black belt with less material knowledge than one in a 32 tech school? Just to make it clear, I am very interested in this art and am just looking for understanding and by no means intend for these questions to offend anyone. Thanks for your replies


 
Yes, thats exactly what it means.  But you have to understand that a "black belt" is a completely subjective measure of accomplishment.  A 1st black in the 32 tech system has the same material as 5th black in the 16 tech system.  Theoretically it should take them the same amount of time to learn that material.  Again, belt ranks are subjective.


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## Gotkenpo (May 1, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Don't worry about the number of techs, don't worry about their order, just train.
> 
> Lamont


I thank you for your response, and it is my intention to do so. I just have not started yet.


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## Gotkenpo (May 1, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Theoretically it should take them the same amount of time to learn that material. Again, belt ranks are subjective.


But in your experience is this the actual fact or is just theoretically true?

I understand that theoretically the material should be equivalent for 32 tech bb and a 16 tech 5th black but is that always the case? Also it raises another question for me. What does the 32 tech bb do for progression from there as compared to 5th bb in a 16 tech school. Again I understand that all ranks are subjective and that 1 instructor might promote a student that another might not but in general there seems to be alot of inequity in the system of Kenpo from the different schools of thought....This whole issue is fascinating to me and I cant wait to become a practicing member of the family of American Kenpo....


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## Blindside (May 2, 2007)

Gotkenpo said:


> But in your experience is this the actual fact or is just theoretically true?
> 
> I understand that theoretically the material should be equivalent for 32 tech bb and a 16 tech 5th black but is that always the case? Also it raises another question for me. What does the 32 tech bb do for progression from there as compared to 5th bb in a 16 tech school. Again I understand that all ranks are subjective and that 1 instructor might promote a student that another might not but in general there seems to be alot of inequity in the system of Kenpo from the different schools of thought....This whole issue is fascinating to me and I cant wait to become a practicing member of the family of American Kenpo....


 
I don' think I've ever met anyone who studies from a 32 tech curricullum, but I'm betting they don't average 13-15 years to black.  I suspect what you wind up with is guys with lots of material who are less proficient at it.  What does a 32 technique guy do after black?  Same as everyone else, practice practice practice, or get bored and quit.

That was why the 24 system was put in place, to have retention after black.

Lamont


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