# The Non Spinning back fist.



## chrissyp (Jan 26, 2017)

So does anyone have luck using the back fist, as power shot? I'm not talking about the spinning BF, but either using it like a jab/lead attack or as follow up for power? Other than for point sparring, I can't see much use in it, as I personally have trouble generating power with it.

Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this technique, and if so, could give me some advice on how to set it up, and use it (Keep in mind, this is NOT the SPINNING back fist)


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2017)

There are two methods: The easiest, but slowest, is to coil your hand over your heart with the elbow up high, and just let it roll out at the target; the second is to hug center line and turn it into a thrust. It helps if you stick it with a bracing angle, in your stance work. THIS IS, WAX ON WAX OFF, stuff.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2017)

I couldn't find the video, I was looking for; so, I will just show you my BK done slowly. It gets faster,


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 26, 2017)

If you're using your arm to generate power for your strikes, you're doing it wrong.
If you're using the proper body mechanics, then you'll be able to generate power. No, it's not as powerful as the rear hand, but it *is* powerful, done properly. 
Proper body mechanics requires the use of the entire body. The hips, torso and shoulders need to be rotating.


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## chrissyp (Jan 26, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you're using your arm to generate power for your strikes, you're doing it wrong.
> If you're using the proper body mechanics, then you'll be able to generate power. No, it's not as powerful as the rear hand, but it *is* powerful, done properly.
> Proper body mechanics requires the use of the entire body. The hips, torso and shoulders need to be rotating.


Ty. I'm not trying to use my arm, it's just a matter of me finding the right body mechanics to make it flow with power. I DO LIKE that it's an unorthodox punch, and comes from odd angles, and it can flow from into one technique to another very smoothly.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 26, 2017)

chrissyp said:


> Ty. I'm not trying to use my arm, it's just a matter of me finding the right body mechanics to make it flow with power. I DO LIKE that it's an unorthodox punch, and comes from odd angles, and it can flow from into one technique to another very smoothly.



You shouldn't need to "find" the mechanics. Your instructor should be able to show you how power is generated within the system you're studying (there's more than one way to skin a cat).  You need only practice the mechanics as you're taught them.


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## DanT (Jan 26, 2017)

chrissyp said:


> So does anyone have luck using the back fist, as power shot? I'm not talking about the spinning BF, but either using it like a jab/lead attack or as follow up for power? Other than for point sparring, I can't see much use in it, as I personally have trouble generating power with it.
> 
> Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this technique, and if so, could give me some advice on how to set it up, and use it (Keep in mind, this is NOT the SPINNING back fist)


I use the lead backfist to smash into the opponents lead forearm and then punch him in the face with my right hand. In terms of knockout power from the backfist itself it's more effective if the opponent isn't wearing a helmet and you catch him on the button


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 26, 2017)

chrissyp said:


> Ty. I'm not trying to use my arm, it's just a matter of me finding the right body mechanics to make it flow with power. I DO LIKE that it's an unorthodox punch, and comes from odd angles, and it can flow from into one technique to another very smoothly.


Okay, here's something odd that worked for me. I'm not sure why, so if it doesn't make sense to you, skip it. I learned to generate power properly in a backfist by working on a backhand chop. I don't know why that worked for me, because the power generation isn't really the same, but the backhand chop was easier for me to get the mechanics right. Then I transferred that "feel" of not depending upon the arm. Maybe it mapped well for me because the chop's range can mimic the range of any of the backfists (spinning, from the heart, and up the center). It only misses the "upward backfist" (my name for a strike that operates like a straight punch, but with the palm turned up - intended to allow use of the first 2 knuckles on a tall person's face, which is useful for initiating a couple of our techniques).


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 26, 2017)

My non-spinning backfist is not thrown as a power shot, primarily.  It can be powerful, but that is not the basic intent.

There are a variety of ways to throw the backfist.  The one seen in the 'ure uchi seiken tsuki' exercise in the style of Isshinryu I practice looks like I'm reaching up to grab my own ear, followed by a snapping motion; the wrist 'breaks' to allow the back of the knuckles to strike like a whip being snapped.

Alternatively, when there is no time to raise the arm so high, it can be thrown from the hip as if it were an Isshinryu uppercut (not a boxer's uppercut), again with the snapping whip-like motion at the end.

As to power, I've practiced my backfist on drywall and smashed through it with no effort.  I've hit a few things I oughtn't have and paid the price; the power was definitely there.

Another option is to throw the backfist as a sideways strike, as seen in the Isshinryu Kusanku and Sunsu katas.  Again, a snapping backfist that cracks like a whip.

My 'spinning' backfist still generates power the same way; with the whip-like snap. The main difference is that I'm adding the power of the turning hips, shoulders, etc.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 26, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> My non-spinning backfist is not thrown as a power shot, primarily.  It can be powerful, but that is not the basic intent.
> 
> There are a variety of ways to throw the backfist.  The one seen in the 'ure uchi seiken tsuki' exercise in the style of Isshinryu I practice looks like I'm reaching up to grab my own ear, followed by a snapping motion; the wrist 'breaks' to allow the back of the knuckles to strike like a whip being snapped.
> 
> ...


I'll have to play with that next week. The room I use on Tuesdays has a Century Reactor bag - a good place to try new strikes. Incidentally, that same room is used once a week by an Isshinryu group.


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## chrissyp (Jan 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, here's something odd that worked for me. I'm not sure why, so if it doesn't make sense to you, skip it. I learned to generate power properly in a backfist by working on a backhand chop. I don't know why that worked for me, because the power generation isn't really the same, but the backhand chop was easier for me to get the mechanics right. Then I transferred that "feel" of not depending upon the arm. Maybe it mapped well for me because the chop's range can mimic the range of any of the backfists (spinning, from the heart, and up the center). It only misses the "upward backfist" (my name for a strike that operates like a straight punch, but with the palm turned up - intended to allow use of the first 2 knuckles on a tall person's face, which is useful for initiating a couple of our techniques).



That's kinda the similar physics I play with. like a back hand chop. I can throw it out like a jab from an off angle....

Follow me what i'm trying to say on this one: from orthodox stance, When I throw a 1, 2 combo, and I load my weight up, like I would throw a 3 (lead hook), I instead take my right hand and throw that as a back fist since it's loaded up already, which I think could work as a great angle, but i'm not sure how strong of a punch it is, or how practical.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 26, 2017)

chrissyp said:


> That's kinda the similar physics I play with. like a back hand chop. I can throw it out like a jab from an off angle....
> 
> Follow me what i'm trying to say on this one: from orthodox stance, When I throw a 1, 2 combo, and I load my weight up, like I would throw a 3 (lead hook), I instead take my right hand and throw that as a back fist since it's loaded up already, which I think could work as a great angle, but i'm not sure how strong of a punch it is, or how practical.


Without seeing it, I'm not sure of the exact strikes you're referring to (we don't use those same terms), but a backfist can certainly carry some power. It's easier to generate power in a hook/roundhouse, and I carry more power in those, but the backfist can be quicker in some situations (hand is already there) and certainly carries enough power to be useful. I find a backhand strike easier to block, but then every strike has some compromise.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Without seeing it, I'm not sure of the exact strikes you're referring to (we don't use those same terms), but a backfist can certainly carry some power. It's easier to generate power in a hook/roundhouse, and I carry more power in those, but the backfist can be quicker in some situations (hand is already there) and certainly carries enough power to be useful. I find a backhand strike easier to block, but then every strike has some compromise.


Mohamad Ali, used them all the time. Blockable? Maybe, if you can see them coming.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 26, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Mohamad Ali, used them all the time. Blockable? Maybe, if you can see them coming.


That's always the challenge. They can be quick. I was talking about the technical aspects. Because the elbow is on the lead side, a shallower block will be effective than would be required on a round/forehand attack. The versions that translate into a straight strike are subject to most of the same qualities as a regular straight punch (blockable on either side, hard to see).


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## Headhunter (Jan 26, 2017)

It's not a power shot like a hook punch but it sucks to get hit with especially if you can connect to the ear.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> It's not a power shot like a hook punch but it sucks to get hit with especially if you can connect to the ear.


If they are rushing in, and you stick a bracing angle with your stance-work, you can drop somebody.


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## Headhunter (Jan 26, 2017)

Bit off topic but on your alternating maces it looks like you do an inward block before dropping to your downward block. What's your application for that? As the technique as I learnt it is a 2 hand push so you'd want to go down straight to the downward to stop the push? Not critisisng or saying you're ways wrong just interested to know what that movement is.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Bit off topic but on your alternating maces it looks like you do an inward block before dropping to your downward block. What's your application for that? As the technique as I learnt it is a 2 hand push so you'd want to go down straight to the downward to stop the push? Not critisisng or saying you're ways wrong just interested to know what that movement is.


I agree it isn't what you were taught, and I see this a lot. I am starting to think we are the only ones that do this. LOL, The idea is that you are just doing, Attacking Mace, against a push, so that these techs feel the same. Not to be a jerk, but I would like to see a video of you surviving that first move, in a technique line, against a bunch of big mean dudes.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2017)

At any rate, this is Pre-Attacking Mace, on the left hand side... if you want it to be.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2017)

In fact the only difference between Alternating Maces, and Attacking mace is the distance created by Forward Bow, The greater distance makes a back knuckle slower than a kick.


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## chrissyp (Jan 27, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> In fact the only difference between Alternating Maces, and Attacking mace is the distance created by Forward Bow, The greater distance makes a back knuckle slower than a kick.


What do you mean by mace? Im not sure what you mean by mace.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2017)

chrissyp said:


> What do you mean by mace? Im not sure what you mean by mace.


Mace means fist in Kenpo land. Alternating maces and Attacking mace, are sister techniques, in EPAK.


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## chrissyp (Jan 27, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Mace means fist in Kenpo land. Alternating maces and Attacking mace, are sister techniques, in EPAK.


I follow now! ty sir!


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## marques (Jan 27, 2017)

chrissyp said:


> So does anyone have luck using the back fist, as power shot?


No. It is too slow. Almost two separate movements needed when on the other side is just waiting with hands up or head movement or counter or...

But great for set up. I also use vertical back fist (upwards and downwards). As alternatives to the jab. Better with footwork and without overuse it, since we expose a lot of our body (not as safe as a jab).

Backfist upwards seems invisible for the opponent. Often, they just take the first one on the chin without any sort of reaction! But no power the way I use it. It is set up for low kicks or hook.

As a power shoot, maybe only after a fake spinning back fist (which works as a setup, hiding half of the movement and putting the opponent's defence on the other side). I have seen that, but not used lately.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2017)

marques said:


> No. It is too slow. Almost two separate movements needed when on the other side is just waiting with hands up or head movement or counter or...
> 
> But great for set up. I also use vertical back fist (upwards and downwards). As alternatives to the jab. Better with footwork and without overuse it, since we expose a lot of our body (not as safe as a jab).
> 
> ...


It is also an unwind of a thrusting elbow, usually don as a chop to the back of the neck.


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## KangTsai (Jan 28, 2017)

Something implies to me that a tricep movement won't generate as much impact pressure as a deltoid-pec-tricep-oblique momentum movement. The closest thing I use to it is when I double jab.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2017)

I dont like it and think the thing is silly. But if you put enough wind up in it you can knock people out.

Generally off some sort of monster hook or overhand and then come back with the back fist.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 28, 2017)

I can use the backfist as power shot. I do it all the time.  I'll put it this way. I can probably break facial bone and collar bones with a backfist. Like dirty dog stated.  It's a body mechanics thing.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I can use the backfist as power shot. I do it all the time.  I'll put it this way. I can probably break facial bone and collar bones with a backfist. Like dirty dog stated.  It's a body mechanics thing.


While it would be nice to get some real damage done with jabbing Back-Knuckle, jabs are meant to give pause.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 28, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> While it would be nice to get some real damage done with jabbing Back-Knuckle, jabs are meant to give pause.


My back fist is a true back fist.  I don't throw mine out like a jab.


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## JP3 (Jan 28, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> It's not a power shot like a hook punch but it sucks to get hit with especially if you can connect to the ear.


Personally, I prefer it right over the opponent's eye, on the brow ridge, or at the bridge of the nose if I cana ctually atch it while they are defending. Eyes tear up. Hard to fight effectively when you are used to being ble to use sight and now you can't.

I used to use a backfist from the lead-hand position which would fire straight out from the hands-up guard position.  The fist travels in a straight line, well the two striking knuckles do anyway, which the shoulder rotates and elbow extends, and wrist snaps as with Bill's description above.  I used it as I'd use a prototypical boxing jab, though the mechanics work a bit differently. For me, the bf was faster, thought he jab was a bit more powerful.  Neither one was really a power-strike.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> My back fist is a true back fist.  I don't throw mine out like a jab.


How true is it?


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 28, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> How true is it?


 True enough that the back of my hand fist hits lol.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> True enough that the back of my hand fist hits lol.


Actually, I know what you mean. I just saw a moment where I could shine.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 28, 2017)

Here's a couple of different Jow Ga back fists. that are normally trained.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 28, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Actually, I know what you mean. I just saw a moment where I could shine.


Yeah I know.  I had a chuckle about it myself.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 29, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> My back fist is a true back fist.  I don't throw mine out like a jab.



Well it's more like a slap fight, isn't it? Just with the back of the hand instead of the palm. Holy telegraph, Batman!


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 29, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Well it's more like a slap fight, isn't it? Just with the back of the hand instead of the palm. Holy telegraph, Batman!


It's not telegraphed in application.  Here's a vertical back fist fist that I had to pull during free sparing, because he didn't see it coming, which is why his hands are still in the guard position.  I ended up knocking his head gear off in the process and it landed about 4 feet behind him..  You can't tell by the picture but this was my slow backfist that he didn't see coming.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 29, 2017)

chrissyp said:


> I can't see much use in it, as I personally have trouble generating power with it.


Since it's easy for your opponent to block your back fist, it can be used to set up many thing such as:

- Right back fist to your opponent's face.
- Your opponent uses right arm to block it.
- Change your back fist into a grab on the wrist.
- Use left hand to grab on his elbow joint.
- Pull his arm toward you.
- Release right wrist grip hand and punch on his face.

The back fist can help you to obtain an arm control. It  can be a bridge between the striking art and the grappling art.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 29, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not telegraphed in application.  Here's a vertical back fist fist that I had to pull during free sparing, because he didn't see it coming, which is why his hands are still in the guard position.  I ended up knocking his head gear off in the process and it landed about 4 feet behind him..  You can't tell by the picture but this was my slow backfist that he didn't see coming.



Cool photo!

Where I'm from, that move is called the "Pimp Hand."  Just sayin.


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## JP3 (Jan 29, 2017)

JGW, I really don't want to hit anyone with the "side" of my metacarpals, or any-thing, for that matter.   Owwwww... I have to use my hands to make my living!  I know, I "could" do some really neat-O hot sand in a pot training from the old Kung Fu Theatre flicks (really, that's what it was called. Sunday night, on Channel 8 in mid-Missouri) stuff to get my hands tougher... but I really don't have the time, or inclination, anymore.

   I didn't even do the spinning backfist with that part of my hand, mine was a spinning hammer fist. It was functional.  Worked OK.

Let's see who "thinks" about their backfist the way I personally do.  Right this second I'm considering being right-foot forward, typical hands-up fighting stance of whatever variety you prefer, right hand slightly closer to opponent than the left.  The below considers my right hand firing with the strike.

   When I jab, typical western-boxing style jab, my shoulder rotates  counter-clockwise (to my perception, not my opponent's) as the arm extends, the elbow correspondingly rotates in space counter-clockwise, the right shoulder itself rotates counterclockwise as well a bit and moves towards the opponent, and at the terminus of the strike - I'm focusing on 1st two knuckles of the right hand's fist, those two knuckles are also rotating counter-clockwise although I'm picturing them travelling down a straight line into the target.... as the match/fight goes on and fatigue  develops, the line generally degrades into a more looping thing, but it still "looks" like a jab.  Body slips forward slightly, hip rotation all the standard body movement and mechanic things to develop the power with which the strike connects.

   Backfist... is the same "body" things, foot slide, hip rotation, shoulder roll forward... but all of the mechanics in the arm itself are ... inverted (I'm not certain that's the right word).  The shoulder socket itself rotates clockwise a bit, the elbow follows the clockwise rotation, and at the moment of impact the 1st two knuckles, though travelling in a straight line (I hope) are rotating clockwise.

   As TKD warriors are occasionally wont to do, we tested the "strength" of each other's strikes with... of course, board breaks!  To this day, I have no idea what that pine tree ever did to us, that so many TKD people just had it out for it...  Anyway, back before I gave up breaking inanimate things, I could break 2 1' sq. 1' thick boards with the backfist, an 3 with the  jab. The backfist was quicker to get on target, the jab brought more with it and the internal body torque set up different lower body combos.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 29, 2017)

JP3 said:


> JGW, I really don't want to hit anyone with the "side" of my metacarpals, or any-thing, for that matter.


 That's where Jow Ga technique differs from how most people train the backfist.  The knuckles land first with this technique.  I don't hit with the back of my hand for this technique, I hit with the back/ top of my knuckles.  When I hit punching mitts with a back fist, you would be able to see knuckle imprints and you'll be able to actually feel my knuckles driving into the pad.


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## JP3 (Jan 29, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's where Jow Ga technique differs from how most people train the backfist.  The knuckles land first with this technique.  I don't hit with the back of my hand for this technique, I hit with the back/ top of my knuckles.  When I hit punching mitts with a back fist, you would be able to see knuckle imprints and you'll be able to actually feel my knuckles driving into the pad.


Tell me more, I'm feeling a bit flushed!  

I'd be able to feel the knuckles pushing through the pads.... oddly sexy.

...lol.. J/KDon't hit me.  What you are describing is exactly the way my own backfist hits, though our mechanics of delivery sound different, at the sharp end out there at the knuckles it's same-same I think. 1st two knuckle penetration of target.


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## drop bear (Jan 29, 2017)

Less can go wrong with the hammer fist version. And is a bit better if you clip then with a forearm.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Less can go wrong with the hammer fist version. And is a bit better if you clip then with a forearm.


The purest form of this move just happens to be two people standing side by side, and from opposite shoulder you hammer fist to the groin. The rest is all built of that concept, as far as true motion goes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Less can go wrong with the hammer fist version. And is a bit better if you clip then with a forearm.


For some reason I feel significantly more power from the backfist. I think it's just perception, maybe because I prefer the elbow down.


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## drop bear (Jan 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> For some reason I feel significantly more power from the backfist. I think it's just perception, maybe because I prefer the elbow down.



Depends what you hit. A hand pad will react better to faster strikes. which is why uppercuts also just feel goober on them. But a head has more mass and will sometimes react better to slower strikes with more weight behind it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Depends what you hit. A hand pad will react better to faster strikes. which is why uppercuts also just feel goober on them. But a head has more mass and will sometimes react better to slower strikes with more weight behind it.


I've tried it recently on both a heavy bag (probably 60 lbs, but not sure) and a Century Reactor bag (much lighter). The backfist feels better on both. Now that I think about it, it may be that I'm just committing better because I'm more used to the elbow-down position, so there's actually more power in my backfist. I'll need to spend some more time on the hammerfist - if I'm right, a bit of time getting comfortable with it again should bring the power back.


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## drop bear (Jan 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've tried it recently on both a heavy bag (probably 60 lbs, but not sure) and a Century Reactor bag (much lighter). The backfist feels better on both. Now that I think about it, it may be that I'm just committing better because I'm more used to the elbow-down position, so there's actually more power in my backfist. I'll need to spend some more time on the hammerfist - if I'm right, a bit of time getting comfortable with it again should bring the power back.



even if I didn't get the power. I would still feel safer paning a guy in the head with a hammerfist. Just on the off chance he meets it with his forehead or something silly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> even if I didn't get the power. I would still feel safer paning a guy in the head with a hammerfist. Just on the off chance he meets it with his forehead or something silly.


Agreed - fewer bones in jeopardy there. If I was going with power, I don't think I'd go with a backfist to the face, anyway - I don't want teeth in my hand. To the ribs, sure. And if I'm off to the side enough to hit further back, I'll want that hammerfist, there - much hard stuff. For some reason, I simply haven't practiced backhand hammerfists in a while.


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## drop bear (Jan 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed - fewer bones in jeopardy there. If I was going with power, I don't think I'd go with a backfist to the face, anyway - I don't want teeth in my hand. To the ribs, sure. And if I'm off to the side enough to hit further back, I'll want that hammerfist, there - much hard stuff. For some reason, I simply haven't practiced backhand hammerfists in a while.



It works in ground and pound for a few techical reasons. So we do it a bit there.

As a stand up I dont like the fact it hits your guarded side and leaves you open to their other hand.


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## JP3 (Jan 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed - fewer bones in jeopardy there. If I was going with power, I don't think I'd go with a backfist to the face, anyway - I don't want teeth in my hand. To the ribs, sure. And if I'm off to the side enough to hit further back, I'll want that hammerfist, there - much hard stuff. For some reason, I simply haven't practiced backhand hammerfists in a while.



It's because hammerfists really aren't very "aiki" at all, Gerry. We're getting old and soft. Drop is still out there, fighting the good fight, punching people in the face and cool stuff like we used to do.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 30, 2017)

JP3 said:


> It's because hammerfists really aren't very "aiki" at all, Gerry. We're getting old and soft. Drop is still out there, fighting the good fight, punching people in the face and cool stuff like we used to do.


I was never really tough enough to do that, JP. I was a scrawny, weak kid growing up. I started NGA at 18, and most of my physical development happened while I was in this art. I learned to hit people pretty hard, but our aim was always "aiki". I think that accounts for my shorter list of injuries. I did the "hard" stuff when I was in my teens (Shotokan and Judo), and wasn't really capable of hitting hard. Come to think of it, I think my scrawny nature up to that point is why I got into the aiki arts.


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## drop bear (Jan 30, 2017)

JP3 said:


> It's because hammerfists really aren't very "aiki" at all, Gerry. We're getting old and soft. Drop is still out there, fighting the good fight, punching people in the face and cool stuff like we used to do.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Jan 31, 2017)

chrissyp said:


> So does anyone have luck using the back fist, as power shot? I'm not talking about the spinning BF, but either using it like a jab/lead attack or as follow up for power? Other than for point sparring, I can't see much use in it, as I personally have trouble generating power with it.
> 
> Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this technique, and if so, could give me some advice on how to set it up, and use it (Keep in mind, this is NOT the SPINNING back fist)


 
In terms of destructive effect, what can a back fist or back knuckle strike easily destroy? Can it break a nose? Yes, Can it ring an ear? Yes, Can it break fingers? Yes, Can it break toes? Yes Can it smash testicles? Yes Can it injure an eye? Yes, Can it break a clavicle? Yes, Can it crack a rib? Yes Are their nerve clusters in the body it can zing? You betcha, With greater skill in generating and transferring force into another body, more options become available, but suffice to say that using a back fist to knock someone out is possible, I don't know if anything I said qualifies as a "power shot" in your opinion. I personally don't use what I consider a power shot until my enemy is in a vulnerable position, so my back fist tends to come out as an unfolding action of some return motion, like after an inward elbow on one side of the jaw I may rip a back knuckle to the other side of the jaw as I return my elbow to strike a limb and as my opposite side is launching another attack. The back of the fist being weaponized helps, meaning well conditioned for impact but again I prefer to use it to help set up a more powerful shot, It is useful in the same way that a double edges dagger is useful, you don't have to turn the weapon over after use. 

Sometimes you can generate a great deal of force and hit someone really hard but you wont knock them out because they saw it coming and their body braced for impact or made microscopic adjustments to absorb the force but other times you can land a strike that is not very powerful but because it catches the body unprepared its lights out. The Back Knuckle is like that, You don't need to know how to smash 9 stacked bricks with no spacers with a back fist, you simply need to catch the human body when it is occupied with something other than absorbing force.


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## JP3 (Feb 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


>



Did ya like that one?


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## Headhunter (Feb 3, 2017)

Love the title non spinning back fist you mean the back fist. Reminds me of mike Goldberg saying wow that was a spinning back fist without the spin lol


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## Transk53 (Feb 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, here's something odd that worked for me. I'm not sure why, so if it doesn't make sense to you, skip it. I learned to generate power properly in a backfist by working on a backhand chop. I don't know why that worked for me, because the power generation isn't really the same, but the backhand chop was easier for me to get the mechanics right. Then I transferred that "feel" of not depending upon the arm. Maybe it mapped well for me because the chop's range can mimic the range of any of the backfists (spinning, from the heart, and up the center). It only misses the "upward backfist" (my name for a strike that operates like a straight punch, but with the palm turned up - intended to allow use of the first 2 knuckles on a tall person's face, which is useful for initiating a couple of our techniques).



Interesting. It is a follow up to me.


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## JP3 (Feb 5, 2017)

A follow-up is how it was taught to be used initially when I was in hapkido as well.  An example would be an entry step, with a block of lead hand strike then step in and some sort of strike to the opponent's strikeing limb, e.g. a hammer fist to the forearm nerve plexus, or into the bicep to spasm the muscle, then the same han immediately snaps into a backfist into the side of neck, jaw, nose or temple. Tended to work IF you got inside and your combo speed was up to snuff, otherwise you got punched in the exposed ribs/kidney, which is no fun.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Nov 28, 2018)

if i missed it in someones comment i apologize (i skimmed)
a snapping back fist puts out a decent amount of power with its whip like motion, fura uchi or swing blow also uses the back side of the knuckles and can do some serious damage and pretty hard to see it coming


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## chrissyp (Nov 28, 2018)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> if i missed it in someones comment i apologize (i skimmed)
> a snapping back fist puts out a decent amount of power with its whip like motion, fura uchi or swing blow also uses the back side of the knuckles and can do some serious damage and pretty hard to see it coming


That's what i think too! So underrated


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## dvcochran (Nov 28, 2018)

Touch Of Death said:


> There are two methods: The easiest, but slowest, is to coil your hand over your heart with the elbow up high, and just let it roll out at the target; the second is to hug center line and turn it into a thrust. It helps if you stick it with a bracing angle, in your stance work. THIS IS, WAX ON WAX OFF, stuff.


Agree. The latter can have some good power. The penetration of the knuckles can have real affect. It sounds like @chrissyp is talking about the former which is more of a flip, not as much power.


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## drop bear (Nov 28, 2018)

drop bear said:


> It works in ground and pound for a few techical reasons. So we do it a bit there.
> 
> As a stand up I dont like the fact it hits your guarded side and leaves you open to their other hand.



I have re thought that position by the way. So long as either I am cutting a massive angle or he is I can be pretty safe from that right hand.

Good boxers will cut a huge angle to my left. And I have popped them from time to time with a sneaky hammer fist. 

It is illegal in boxing though. Which means I could only hit the guy once.


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## Denoaikido (Dec 13, 2018)




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## Transk53 (Dec 29, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I have re thought that position by the way. So long as either I am cutting a massive angle or he is I can be pretty safe from that right hand.
> 
> Good boxers will cut a huge angle to my left. And I have popped them from time to time with a sneaky hammer fist.
> 
> It is illegal in boxing though. Which means I could only hit the guy once.



True, but what about a dirty boxer whom would still cut to left deep, anticipate a strike, block with elbow and then used forced momentum to go for a grapple. Perhaps even finish with head but, then withdraw. Would that work do you think?


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## drop bear (Dec 29, 2018)

Transk53 said:


> True, but what about a dirty boxer whom would still cut to left deep, anticipate a strike, block with elbow and then used forced momentum to go for a grapple. Perhaps even finish with head but, then withdraw. Would that work do you think?



I can still go right. So probably not. Just too much space.


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## dvcochran (Dec 29, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I can still go right. So probably not. Just too much space.


Is he still considered a boxer if he starts grappling you?


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## Transk53 (Dec 30, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I can still go right. So probably not. Just too much space.



Yes it probably wouldn’t, was just thinking.


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## Transk53 (Dec 30, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Is he still considered a boxer if he starts grappling you?



In dirty boxing yeah. Back in the day, grappling and such like was there. There is a club Urban Boxing down on the South coast in the UK. They have recorded some seminar stuff for YouTube, albeit a few years ago, but very interesting to watch. But I guess like a lot of Krav, it is down to interpretation on what is and what isn’t. It my experience it can be a bit confusing, which seriously doesn’t take much in my case, but a lot seems the same, just have to spot the subtle differences in a teacher when they demonstrate. Always looks the same, but never is the same. Starting to sound like Yoda now. But yes, check out those vids. Well worth a watch


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## Martial D (Dec 30, 2018)

Old topic but relevant. I throw my lead straight from three different angles. The traditional jab line that comes from the shoulder, the WC straight that cones from the center, and the corkscrew backfist that comes from the rear side. Three angles from a stationary position. Add in movement and things get fun.


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## drop bear (Dec 30, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Is he still considered a boxer if he starts grappling you?



In sparring we have a very loose definition of boxing. Unless someone is in fight camp.

And by loose definition I mean I had a guy Tarzan swing off a rope to pass guard once in jits class.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2018)

drop bear said:


> In sparring we have a very loose definition of boxing. Unless someone is in fight camp.
> 
> And by loose definition I mean I had a guy Tarzan swing off a rope to pass guard once in jits class.


It doesn't get much looser than that. Is that what it takes to pass your guard??


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## drop bear (Dec 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It doesn't get much looser than that. Is that what it takes to pass your guard??



Nah. We don't really guard game a lot. So it is one of those weird little holes in my game I have.

I also only have about 3 submissions.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 30, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I can use the backfist as power shot. I do it all the time.  I'll put it this way. I can probably break facial bone and collar bones with a backfist. Like dirty dog stated.  It's a body mechanics thing.


I agree the backfist can break facial bone. When practicing do you aim for the temple?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> I agree the backfist can break facial bone. When practicing do you aim for the temple?


Sometimes and only when my opponent is using headgear.  I also aim for where the jaw connects. I also use it to knock down my opponents guard.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 31, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Sometimes and only when my opponent is using headgear.  I also aim for where the jaw connects. I also use it to knock down my opponents guard.


I was taught temple in a fight. I was taught It would knock out or might even kill your attacker. 
I was taught when sparing aim, but do not hit temple, a time before pads.
I was taught when sparing use backfist to setup a grab just above wrist from which you can do a lot of things like side kick to the ribs.
We were not allowed to uses spinning backfist while sparing, only mirror work.
Back when I first started the backfist was important and practiced a lot.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 31, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> I was taught temple in a fight. I was taught It would knock out or might even kill your attacker.



If you change "would" to "might", you'll be a lot closer to correct. Frankly, the backfist is a low percentage knockout move. And I am quite skeptical about the possibility of a non-spinning backfist to the temple being lethal.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Nah. We don't really guard game a lot. So it is one of those weird little holes in my game I have.
> 
> I also only have about 3 submissions.


Then we'd be well-matched - I'm not terribly good at passing guard.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 31, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you change "would" to "might", you'll be a lot closer to correct. Frankly, the backfist is a low percentage knockout move. And I am quite skeptical about the possibility of a non-spinning backfist to the temple being lethal.


I agree with you for most people. Their were a few black belts, I total believe could kill you with a backfist.


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## dvcochran (Dec 31, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you change "would" to "might", you'll be a lot closer to correct. Frankly, the backfist is a low percentage knockout move. And I am quite skeptical about the possibility of a non-spinning backfist to the temple being lethal.


Agree. A lead hand back fist is a good distraction for a setup. A spinning back fist can be tremendously powerful and solid jaw strike is a high percentage knockout. Rock the head.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> I was taught temple in a fight. I was taught It would knock out or might even kill your attacker.


I grew up thinking that too, but these days, the most I hope to get from it it is to rattle the brain.  I'm not saying that you can't die from a strike there, I'm just saying that it's not as easy to hit that spot as most people make it sound like.    If I really want to hurt someone that bad then there are easier places to get to.  To put it into context look at all of the strikes that occur in MMA from punches to kicks and no one dies instantly, correction:  The number of those who die instantly are very small considering the number of people getting hit in the head.  

My entire rule for dangerous like that is to either avoid them or not strike them hard (with gear on).  
I'm of the mindset if I can:

hit you with a slow punch
pull the power from it
and have enough thinking time to determine before impact, that I need to pull the punch so I don't severely injure you.
Then I could easily blast a full power punch without having to think about it.  That lack of "real-time" analysis would mean that my punch would be that much faster because I'm not running a bunch of calculations in my head while trying to analyze how hard I should hit you.  So if I target spots like that, then gloves, and gear is a must, along with pulling power, and putting the safety of your sparring partner first.  

My back fist are more like bats then the one that snaps. I'm not fond of the snapping backfist, I haven't done one since I was 8 and in karate.


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## dvcochran (Dec 31, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I grew up thinking that too, but these days, the most I hope to get from it it is to rattle the brain.  I'm not saying that you can't die from a strike there, I'm just saying that it's not as easy to hit that spot as most people make it sound like.    If I really want to hurt someone that bad then there are easier places to get to.  To put it into context look at all of the strikes that occur in MMA from punches to kicks and no one dies instantly, correction:  The number of those who die instantly are very small considering the number of people getting hit in the head.
> 
> My entire rule for dangerous like that is to either avoid them or not strike them hard (with gear on).
> I'm of the mindset if I can:
> ...


It doesn't apply to the first strike knock out idea but a lead hand backfist to the nose works well. The watery eyes and brief loss of concentration are priceless. Great bar fight technique for the guy who keeps wanting to get in your face.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you change "would" to "might", you'll be a lot closer to correct. Frankly, the backfist is a low percentage knockout move. And I am quite skeptical about the possibility of a non-spinning backfist to the temple being lethal.


You would have to have a really clean shot to kill someone by hitting them in the temple.  It's the one place where people's arms really get in the way when they are trying to cover against punches.  It's definitely not as easy as it people tend to make it seem. 





Look at the effort these guys have to put into striking on or near that area











I think I read something that the reason the temple is such a dangerous spot is because the bone is thinner there and a skull fracture in that area can cut the artery that's in that area.  Skull fractures are bad in my book regardless if they are cutting anything.  My guess is that in the past many people probably died from the concussion of being hit there.  Not sure if back then "ancient times" they tried to keep people from falling to sleep after having a concussion, or if they just allowed them to sleep.


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## dvcochran (Dec 31, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> You would have to have a really clean shot to kill someone by hitting them in the temple.  It's the one place where people's arms really get in the way when they are trying to cover against punches.  It's definitely not as easy as it people tend to make it seem.
> View attachment 21996
> 
> Look at the effort these guys have to put into striking on or near that area
> ...


Yes, the mengenial artery runs behind the temple; which is the thinnest part of the skull. It is a good, but hard target. You have a real chance of damaging the artery and causing damage.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> It doesn't apply to the first strike knock out idea but a lead hand backfist to the nose works well. The watery eyes and brief loss of concentration are priceless. Great bar fight technique for the guy who keeps wanting to get in your face.


One of my favorite sayings during my first years of Jow Ga is.  "Break your enemy's nose and let him drown on his own blood."   I have a big nose so you know I'm not trying to get smashed in my nose. lol  

I've seen pictures of people with broken noses and I'm like "Hell naw.  I'll pass"

How a backfist should be done  he he he


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## dvcochran (Dec 31, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> One of my favorite sayings during my first years of Jow Ga is.  "Break your enemy's nose and let him drown on his own blood."   I have a big nose so you know I'm not trying to get smashed in my nose. lol
> 
> I've seen pictures of people with broken noses and I'm like "Hell naw.  I'll pass"
> 
> How a backfist should be done  he he he


Your tagline link doesn't work.


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## Bruce7 (Jan 11, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> One of my favorite sayings during my first years of Jow Ga is.  "Break your enemy's nose and let him drown on his own blood."   I have a big nose so you know I'm not trying to get smashed in my nose. lol
> 
> I've seen pictures of people with broken noses and I'm like "Hell naw.  I'll pass"
> 
> How a backfist should be done  he he he


Excellent video


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 11, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Your tagline link doesn't work.


By the way thanks for letting me know.  I'll have to update it.


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