# Ed Parker Jr statement



## Headhunter (Mar 11, 2018)

Very interesting I just saw this posted on kenpo talk and thought I'd share here for anyone interested.

I've known for a long time ed Parker jr isn't a fan of the kenpo world but I never knew to this extent. Of course this is only his side but I agree with a lot of what he's said.

I never met ed Parker but from everything I've heard he was very progressive never wanting to stay In the same place but to many instructors are trapped in the past with kenpo refusing to advance it which is not the point of kenpo.

Also I do have an issue with the fact yah have to pay ed parkers family to open up a school and to use the badge or even put your own certificates up in a school. I believe if you get to black belt you've paid your dues to the art over the years and have every right to put your certificates up.

If I am ever to start a school it would not be a kenpo school because I wouldn't jump through those hoops that's not who I am and never will be.

The whole situation is very sad and I feel bad for ed Parker jr 

Ed Parker Jr. vs Kam IV


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 11, 2018)

I’m not a Kenpo guy, so there’s going to be stuff I don’t know/stuff that goes over my head.  Paying a royalty to display your rank certificate is pretty ridiculous regardless of if you’re still active in his organization or not.  Nothing can change the fact that it was earned when it stated it was earned, even if you have since that time wronged that organization in some way or another.  Keeping it up and acting like you’re still a part of it when you’re not is another matter.

I have no problem with the Parkers requiring a fee to open and operate a school under the Parker name, wear their patches, etc.  They’re using the Parker name and likeness.  Any time you use someone else’s name or likeness for profit, you’ve got to give that person their rightful cut.  If you don’t agree with their terms, don’t use their name, simple as that.

My father has owned an auto repair shop for going on 40 years.  He’s had quite a few employees leave and start their own shop.  If they used his name and likeness in their business, he should be entitled to a cut.  Why should they make money on his name without compensating him?  The exact terms may be different than the Parker situation, but the principle is the same.  However if they had some sort of mechanic’s certificate from my father, they should be able to do with it as they wish without fees.

My CI shouldn’t and isn’t allowed to use the name Seido Juku nor wear and distribute patches, certificates, etc. bearing anything related to Seido Juku without Tadashi Nakamura’s permission.  So what if my teacher has been his student and in the organization for over 40 years.  So what if he’s run his own dojo for 30 years.  In order to use Nakamura’s name and likeness, he must comply with Nakamura’s terms.  If he doesn’t agree with those terms, he can leave.  Nakamura won’t live forever.  His son has already been named his successor.  When his son fully takes over, my CI will have to agree to his terms or leave.  That’s the way the world works.  MA isn’t nor shouldn’t be an exception.  If you’re using someone else’s name, you use it the way they or the people they designated want you to use it or you don’t use it at all.


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 11, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’m not a Kenpo guy, so there’s going to be stuff I don’t know/stuff that goes over my head.  Paying a royalty to display your rank certificate is pretty ridiculous regardless of if you’re still active in his organization or not.  Nothing can change the fact that it was earned when it stated it was earned, even if you have since that time wronged that organization in some way or another.  Keeping it up and acting like you’re still a part of it when you’re not is another matter.
> 
> I have no problem with the Parkers requiring a fee to open and operate a school under the Parker name, wear their patches, etc.  They’re using the Parker name and likeness.  Any time you use someone else’s name or likeness for profit, you’ve got to give that person their rightful cut.  If you don’t agree with their terms, don’t use their name, simple as that.
> 
> ...


The whole thing is that Parker jr is saying is what they're doing is against what his wishes were. Bob white posted on Facebook that if ed Parker saw a kenpo practitioner who was a participant at one of his tournaments and didn't have a badge he'd personally go over and give them one to wear and now his family is making problems for people even wearing the badge without permission which is ridiculous if a guy bought that badge from his school he should be allowed to wear it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 11, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’m not a Kenpo guy, so there’s going to be stuff I don’t know/stuff that goes over my head. Paying a royalty to display your rank certificate is pretty ridiculous regardless of if you’re still active in his organization or not.


Every time I hear about this, I doubt the legality of their requirement.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 11, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’m not a Kenpo guy, so there’s going to be stuff I don’t know/stuff that goes over my head.  Paying a royalty to display your rank certificate is pretty ridiculous regardless of if you’re still active in his organization or not.  Nothing can change the fact that it was earned when it stated it was earned, even if you have since that time wronged that organization in some way or another.  Keeping it up and acting like you’re still a part of it when you’re not is another matter.
> 
> I have no problem with the Parkers requiring a fee to open and operate a school under the Parker name, wear their patches, etc.  They’re using the Parker name and likeness.  Any time you use someone else’s name or likeness for profit, you’ve got to give that person their rightful cut.  If you don’t agree with their terms, don’t use their name, simple as that.
> 
> ...


The only part of that I go back and forth on is using the name of the style/art. I see both sides of that one. If someone wants to teach an art quite differently, but still sees it as that same art, I see it as honoring the predecessors to keep the art's name. Of course, I also see how someone who created a style may want to keep control of what is called by that name - both for business reasons and to be able to ensure quality is associated with the style.


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 11, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The only part of that I go back and forth on is using the name of the style/art. I see both sides of that one. If someone wants to teach an art quite differently, but still sees it as that same art, I see it as honoring the predecessors to keep the art's name. Of course, I also see how someone who created a style may want to keep control of what is called by that name - both for business reasons and to be able to ensure quality is associated with the style.


Thing is though if I opened up a "kenpo" school I shouldn't have to go through all that because ed Parker didn't invent kenpo. Kenpo was around way before him, he developed American kenpo and yes that is his but the term kenpo has been around way before him so if I called it kenpo then surely there'd be no issue


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 11, 2018)

I tend to avoid the political side of kenpo, so no comments on what is/has happened with his family. However, i am interested to see the self defense curriculum he mentioned near the end.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 11, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Thing is though if I opened up a "kenpo" school I shouldn't have to go through all that because ed Parker didn't invent kenpo. Kenpo was around way before him, he developed American kenpo and yes that is his but the term kenpo has been around way before him so if I called it kenpo then surely there'd be no issue


If that's true (I assume it is), then there shouldn't be any way for them to enforce any restrictions on the use of the term. Of course, just because there's no legal justification, that doesn't necessarily mean they can't file lawsuits that are expensive to defend and cause people to comply, anyway. A tactic I personally abhor.


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 11, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I tend to avoid the political side of kenpo, so no comments on what is/has happened with his family. However, i am interested to see the self defense curriculum he mentioned near the end.


Paxtial arts...it's meant to be a soft style similar to tai chi. I've seen some of it but honestly I'm not sold


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 11, 2018)

Kenpo is a generic term that’s in the public domain.  Same for karate, TKD, judo, kung fu, et al.  If “American Kempo” is trademarked, then you either pay a royalty or use a different name.

As far as the wanting of payment for wearing a patch goes, same rules apply - if it’s Parker’s design, pay Parker.  If it’s generic, rock the patch.

If the guy is buying them with all royalties paid, then handing them out, I don’t see how the people wearing them have any responsibility to pay anything.  If I bought a bunch of Hulkamania T-shirts and handed them out at a WWE event, the people wearing them don’t owe Hulk Hogan a dime.

I don’t know the specifics of the patch in question, but the way it seems on the surface, Parker’s heirs should go after the people making and selling them against trademark issues, not the people wearing them.

Kyokushin is still going through something similar after Oyama’s death in 1994.  Most recently, Japanese courts awarded Kyokushin trademark stuff to Oyama’s daughter.  Anyone who uses the Kyokushin kanji must legally pay Oyama’s daughter a royalty.    Her father created it, therefore she should have control over who’s using it and how.  What’s different is she’s going after the people distributing them, not people at a tournament wearing what their teachers gave them.

As far as having an “Ed Parker Memorial Tournament” or the like, as long as you’re using his name, you need and should obtain permission.  Whether they say “pay me” “yes” or “no” is their prerogative.  If I went to Muhammad Ali’s boxing school and taught what I learned, I still don’t have the right to hold a “Muhammad Ali Memorial Boxing Tournament” nor open a Muhammad Ali boxing school  without Ali’s family’s permission.  Too many people out there could do his name a disservice or simply want to profit from his name.  Obtaining permission from the people rightfully in charge keeps that in check.


----------



## Buka (Mar 11, 2018)

I don't know Ed Parkers daughters, but I knew Ed a little, and know Ms DiRienzo well, going on fifty years now. [she's awesome]  I know all the people in Massachusetts impacted by this crap, know their schools, their students, knew their teachers.

All of this stuff going on just makes me incredibly sad. I'm surprised the karate world hasn't completely cannibalized itself by now. Yet, for some reason, it keeps on trying.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 11, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Paxtial arts...it's meant to be a soft style similar to tai chi. I've seen some of it but honestly I'm not sold


Thanks. Forgot I had already had this revelation a while back, looked at the stuff, and was also not sold on it. At least in the videos, too much compliance, no resistance, not full speed, etc.


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 11, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Thanks. Forgot I had already had this revelation a while back, looked at the stuff, and was also not sold on it. At least in the videos, too much compliance, no resistance, not full speed, etc.


To me it seems like he's doing everything to get away from kenpo making his style the total opposite of kenpo. Not saying he's a fraud because he is a kenpo black belt and I've met him and he seems a genuine and humble guy and maybe his stuff does work but reading a lot of interviews he's done he seems very resentful to kenpo and his connection to it. I think he really never wanted anything to do with it and only worked with his dad out of love for him. Can't be easy for him having the name ed Parker constantly getting kenpo guys harassing him (not in a bad way necessarily but guys constantly talkinh about his dads work instead of his own)


----------



## oldsoldier2006 (May 18, 2018)

I was a student in the years leading up to EPS's death. While I had since stopped training, I associated with people who still did during the time following his death. The whole thing is sad. Fortunately, I was young when this was all going on so I wasn't too invested in the politics of it all. I was saddened by the death of EPK because he was the founder of EPAK and no other reason. I get the paying of royalties for the affiliation of one school to another, if that's the route that some instructors want to go. Flying another person's banner ought to fetch them something, as performance in competitions by affiliate schools help improve or worsen the reputation of the flagship organization. 

These days, I train Brazilian  Jiu Jitsu. Smaller academies will often pay an annual fee to affiliate to larger, more well-known schools, usually to help their standing in tournaments. Often times, in addition to the annual fee they are obligated to host seminars featuring the owner of the school to which they affiliate. I don't know how common this practice is in "traditional" martial arts schools. I get the Parker family wanting to be paid for any continued merchandising of items from the "golden days" like the traditional Kenpo crest patches and all that but I don't know how enforceable it is that people pay an additional fee over and above purchasing the patch itself. I'd hate to see the database required to house the names of everyone who has ever bought a traditional Kenpo crest. As far as instruction goes, the curriculum is the curriculum. It sounds to me like in order to avoid paying "royalties" or whatever, all you have to do is generalize what you teach by referring to it as "karate". With as deluded as the Parker lineage has become, it shouldn't be hard to evade this pettiness over money or whatever else. As a point of interest, I've never felt that a single technique I've ever been taught was made better by knowing who created it.


----------



## seninoniwashi (May 22, 2018)

That's an interesting quote he used from his father: “If my art is the same 10 years after my passing, you have not done my art justice.” I have not heard that and will need to pick up that book. If you make changes to the system after the founder has passed on is it still the same system at that point?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 22, 2018)

seninoniwashi said:


> That's an interesting quote he used from his father: “If my art is the same 10 years after my passing, you have not done my art justice.” I have not heard that and will need to pick up that book. If you make changes to the system after the founder has passed on is it still the same system at that point?


If you follow the principles, it is. My thought (on any art) has always been that freezing it where the founder left it is an artificial thing. The founder likely wouldn't have stopped improving it, and stopping where he had to leave off either assumes he gave up making it better, or that he was so much better than anyone since (even though they started with what he gave them) that nobody can ever improve it in any way. Just my opinion, but a strongly held one.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 22, 2018)

This stuff was all created by humans.  None of it was handed down by the gods.  None of it is sacred.  All of it can be changed, for better or for worse.


----------



## Headhunter (May 24, 2018)

seninoniwashi said:


> That's an interesting quote he used from his father: “If my art is the same 10 years after my passing, you have not done my art justice.” I have not heard that and will need to pick up that book. If you make changes to the system after the founder has passed on is it still the same system at that point?


Of course it is. Boxing used to be a lot different in the 1800s than it is now does that mean it's not boxing now? Especially with kenpo which is meant to be adapted that's what the main point of it is.


----------



## eSCREAMa (Mar 14, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Every time I hear about this, I doubt the legality of their requirement.



It's true.  It is only when using the name and likeness of the Parker name.  The certificates are far-fetched.  I don't think that is true.


----------



## eSCREAMa (Mar 14, 2021)

Headhunter said:


> Paxtial arts...it's meant to be a soft style similar to tai chi. I've seen some of it but honestly I'm not sold


I had it applied on me.  Sorry to say, it's an eye-roller.


----------



## eSCREAMa (Aug 31, 2021)

Headhunter said:


> Very interesting I just saw this posted on kenpo talk and thought I'd share here for anyone interested.
> 
> I've known for a long time ed Parker jr isn't a fan of the kenpo world but I never knew to this extent. Of course this is only his side but I agree with a lot of what he's said.
> 
> ...


I hope you would follow your dream, if that is what it is, to open a karate school.  You can always do Kenpo your way.  Kenpo can be tailored to the student .  Good luck.


----------



## shesulsa (Nov 7, 2021)

Headhunter said:


> Paxtial arts...it's meant to be a soft style similar to tai chi. I've seen some of it but honestly I'm not sold


Certified by EP2 here. To say it is similar to T'ai Chi is missing the point, really. It is not a martial art (Mars being the god of war) but a Paxtial art (Pax being a name for the goddess of peace). It is not designed to be a replacement for martial arts - it is a tool in the box when a softer response is warranted. It speaks to some unaddressed teachings of old - the other half of warriorship as explained and described by EP1 himself and now addressed by EP2.


----------

