# When endless repetition is a bad thing...



## geezer (Jun 1, 2011)

One of the old myths about Kung-fu training, and athletic training in general, is that _if you train harder with more reps you get better_. Like most commonly held misconceptions, it is based on a certain amount of truth. Gaining skill requires "hard work" and you have to practice the basics a lot to really internalize them. But there is a limit. Repeating the alphabet endlessly both forwards and backwards will never make you a great writer. And, spending too much of your finite training time on one thing will take away from time spent on other, possibly more important stuff. Worse, endlessly repeating something incorrectly only ingrains bad habits. Oh and one more thing... even if your technique is correct, too many reps of a particular movement can be harmful to your body... especially as you age. The body only regenerates so much, so _milage counts!_

Now considering what I said above... what is a reasonable amount of time to spend on things like chain-punching, wall bag hitting, kicking exercises and so forth? How do you decide when to stop?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2011)

geezer said:


> Now considering what I said above... what is a reasonable amount of time to spend on things like chain-punching, wall bag hitting, kicking exercises and so forth? How do you decide when to stop?


 
When your body tells you to. 

They also say (who ever they are) "do something 2000 times it will become habit". Now if that is true after that it is all about maintenance

My Sanda sifu has been hitting trees for years (30 or more) and he is incredibly healthy. However that is not all he does he also does a lot of body weight stuff to as part of his workout. But he has been doing this since childhood and so far there are no ill effects but he also stresses balance in just about everything&#8230;even though he will never admit he is talking about internal and external training that is exactly what he is talking about 

My Taijiquan sifu has trained taiji for over 50 years and has no health issues however he recently told me there are certain exercises (again body weight stuff) he can no longer do like he could when he was young. He listens to his body and changes things a bit as time goes on. And taiji is all about balance so he keeps things balanced as it applies to internal and external training

My Sigung and my sifu once meant a old man (as I was told) who was quite crippled up but per my sigung this guy was once a great external Martial Artist. However he focused too much on the external and neglected the internal so he ended up in bad health in his old age. 

Back when I started training Sanda I was having hand issues and when I was told to start hitting trees I thought &#8220;This is nuts:&#8221; but I did it and my hand issues went away. I was doing to much internal and not enough external training then 

As far as CMA goes, it is all about balance 

An old CMA saying; If you train martial arts without training deep skill you arrive at old age with nothing

Zhang Zhaodong trained Baguazhang until he was 85
Fu Zhongwen trained Taijiquan until he was 91
Wu Dianke trained Xingyi until he was 92
Wang Ji Wu trained Xingyiquan until he was 100 
so it can be done

and just talking Wing Chun
Ip Ching is 75
Ip Chun is 87

may sound corny or like a fortune cookie but it is all about balance

:yinyang:


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Jun 1, 2011)

Xue sheng said it all imho , from what i've read the chinese train tai chi as an internal art *along with* any other style that they might practice as an external art like wing chun or hsingquan etc.  The real key words here are "*balance between internal and external development*", The focus isn't merely on external development since no matter how hard you train there is only a limit to how much your body can take , granted that limit can be surpassed through methods which require meticulous hard work and dedication eventually you get old and then your body starts to change. But if you are strong internally as well as externally you can overcome limitations using your mind rather than throwing in everything you've got and then giving up instantly, you learn to conserve energy and get the most out of a training session without stressing your body as much as you would have if you went all out every time. Ofcourse The Benefits of this balance really show in the long run , or rather what doesn't suddenly show up in the long run is a sudden ache in the knee when you throw a kick or pain in the joints when you do a punching motion , the martial arts are about perseverance and understanding of one self more than anything imo. Don't get me wrong its always good to have a nice long workout/practice session , but in a balanced way


----------



## mook jong man (Jun 1, 2011)

I just train by feel , as in it depends how I feel.
If I did a thousand punches on the wall bag in the last session and my hands are a bit sore , then this session I might work on elbow strikes , moving in my stance , pivoting or whatever.

But I always give the muscles that were involved a rest and work on something else or do it in a slightly different way so it isn't as taxing.

I remember once one of my instructors injured his shoulder and couldn't use his right arm at all , so because he injured his arm he said for the next week we were all only going to work on leg techniques and spar with only the left arm.

It worked out well because most people are weaker and less coordinated on the left side so it helped to bring that side up to par so to speak.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 1, 2011)

If one practices to simply get to a certain number, i.e. 1000 reps in a session, for example, then the intent of the training becomes all about hitting that number.  And when that is the focus, often the quality suffers because the number is all that matters.  

I think that's one place where it becomes too much.

Instead, focus on doing quality repetitions, rather than quantity for the sake of quantity.  Focus on every single rep., not the numbered goal.

Fewer reps with higher quality is much better than many many reps of low quality.


----------



## fangjian (Jun 1, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> If one practices to simply get to a certain number, i.e. 1000 reps in a session, for example, then the intent of the training becomes all about hitting that number.  And when that is the focus, often the quality suffers because the number is all that matters.
> 
> I think that's one place where it becomes too much.
> 
> ...



Very good advice. 

Also I will add that, doing something a billion times can also be extremely boring. Especially if the student does not understand why they are doing it and doesn't understand its benefit.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> If one practices to simply get to a certain number, i.e. 1000 reps in a session, for example, then the intent of the training becomes all about hitting that number. And when that is the focus, often the quality suffers because the number is all that matters.
> 
> I think that's one place where it becomes too much.
> 
> ...


 
One of the very few times we do not entirely agree.

If you are specifically talking about an experienced MAist like Geezer we agree. If you are talking about a beginner we do not and my Sanda sifu would likely not agree at all with either of us but then he would not require or expect an experienced (older) MAist to do the same amount of repetitions as a beginner either. For a beginner he wants both Quantity and quality. It is boring, it is hard and it is painful but if you want to train Sanda and you want him to teach you it is what you have to do and I tend to agree with him. For a teacher of a Modern CMA, is incredibly traditional in his approach.


I see this as a big issue with CMA today the complete lack of desire on the part of many beginners to put in the time needed to train it properly. But then many teaching never trained traditionally or they change it to gain students who don&#8217;t want to train traditionally. My last Xingyiquan sifu knew how to train it but he did not train Santi Shi correctly because if he did he would never have any students. Traditionally doing Santi is 20 minutes straight per day per leg is a beginner but he did 5 minutes left, 5 minutes right repeat. I did not think this was right then and after talks with a few in Xingyiquan teachers trained in China, one still living in China, I now know it isn&#8217;t but he had to if he wanted to have any students because training Santi Shi is boring and painful, but it is so incredibly necessary if you want to be able to ever use Xingyiquan properly as a martial art. However both teachers from China said pretty much the same thing. In the old days 1 to 2 hours a day of Santi per side per day was expected but no one has this kind of time today so they only expect 30 minutes per side per day. One also added that most Americans don&#8217;t want to train 20 minutes so a total of 2 hours is just not going to happen here, he now lives in the USA by the way. 

So bottom-line is CMA training is boring in the beginning, there is a lot of it, and it is hard but as you advance things change and you go from building to maintaining and if you are, in the shall we say later years, focusing on high repetitions and hitting a lot of hard objects you are likely focusing too much on the external and doing damage and need to back off and train the internal more to balance things out and cut back on the external.

This is why, in geezer's case, I feel endless repetition is a bad thing, he no longer needs to train that way. However he still need to train, but maybe it is just he needs to train differently now than he did in the beginning.


----------



## Nomad (Jun 2, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> If one practices to simply get to a certain number, i.e. 1000 reps in a session, for example, then the intent of the training becomes all about hitting that number.  And when that is the focus, often the quality suffers because the number is all that matters.
> 
> I think that's one place where it becomes too much.
> 
> ...



Very true.  Practice doesn't make perfect... perfect practice makes perfect.  

In other words, simple repetition can serve to only reinforce and amplify bad technique unless there's frequent critique and careful attention spent on basics like body mechanics.  

Note that once past a certain level of expertise, the criticism can as easily come from within (especially if mirrors and/or video is used to gain a better picture of what's happening while doing a specific technique).


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 2, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> One of the very few times we do not entirely agree.
> ...


 
I'm not sure we're really on a different page.  I agree, many reps is important in training.  However I believe it is possible to push for a number that is beyond the individual's ability to stay focused on what he is doing with a high level of quality.  That's both a mental and a physical thing.

It is important to push those limits and train hard.  But once you've pushed beyond the point where the quality of the repetition is falling apart, it doesn't do much good to keep going.  At that point it becomes an exercise of pure endurance, which is also important but not a good trade for poor technique.  Time to recognize what is happening and do something else.  Maybe come back later, even a few minutes later, if you want to do more.  But a break is in order to shake out, clear the mind, and bring the quality of technique back up to par.

as far as standing exercises go, I agree, most of us do not have the time to practice as much as would be optimal.  Again, pushing the limits is the only way to get better, but it must be gradual, so proper posture and stance can be maintained.  Once you've pushed past the point where you cannot hold the position and posture properly, it's time to quit.  But over time, push the time longer.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I'm not sure we're really on a different page. I agree, many reps is important in training. However I believe it is possible to push for a number that is beyond the individual's ability to stay focused on what he is doing with a high level of quality. That's both a mental and a physical thing.
> 
> It is important to push those limits and train hard. But once you've pushed beyond the point where the quality of the repetition is falling apart, it doesn't do much good to keep going. At that point it becomes an exercise of pure endurance, which is also important but not a good trade for poor technique. Time to recognize what is happening and do something else. Maybe come back later, even a few minutes later, if you want to do more. But a break is in order to shake out, clear the mind, and bring the quality of technique back up to par.
> 
> as far as standing exercises go, I agree, most of us do not have the time to practice as much as would be optimal. Again, pushing the limits is the only way to get better, but it must be gradual, so proper posture and stance can be maintained. Once you've pushed past the point where you cannot hold the position and posture properly, it's time to quit. But over time, push the time longer.


 
DAMN :disgust: You win this round Mr Crane but next time... :EG: :uhyeah:

Yeah ok...we agree...AGAIN!!! :uhyeah:

As to standing practice, yup, it takes time and can't be forced or rushed.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jun 2, 2011)

Once you have an idea of the correct  path of  a good skill- let;s say a punch...I find nothing wrong with practicing it again and again-for further skill development,

joy chaudhuri


----------



## geezer (Jun 2, 2011)

Joy, I especially value your opinion on these matters since you are my elder by a good bit and have been training continuously for many years, including iron palm exercises, wall bag reps and the like. I imagine you've toned down some things compared to your younger years. What guidelines do you use?


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Jun 2, 2011)

I guess i'd do what felt normal tbh , while pushing myself just enough


----------



## Vajramusti (Jun 2, 2011)

Hi "Geezer"(g)- I have never been injured in doing wing chun.I pay attention to coordinating the body, the breath and the mind on what I am doing. The aging process, and some accidents took their toll  in some area- I no longer jog- so I walk.  But punches, kicks. stances, footwork, the knives, the pole, the bag, chi sao, gor sao--- I do them all- regularly and have become more accurate and less injury prone in the process.Doing things "correctly" rather using hugely tensed muscles has been important. I don't bang the wall bag hard...not necessary- more important to coordinate the body and connect right IMO.Tonight my students will throw atleast 500 punches. I will join them for 200- I have thrown 300 this morning. Some days we throw 1000 or more....minimizing local muscle tensing.
When I am teaching I dont get my own full exercise- so I have my own routine for myself.
I know my limits but my limits are way beyond most folks anywhere near my age...I will be 78 in August!! My yoga and pranayama(breathing/chi gung) helps me build up rather than break down the body.

joy


----------



## Sukerkin (Jun 2, 2011)

Nomad said:


> Very true.  Practice doesn't make perfect... perfect practice makes perfect.



So true.  One of the sayings that has been my touchstone in martial arts training has ever been:

"Practise makes permanent".

A thousand reps of something done wrongly is a thousand reps that need to be undone.


----------



## geezer (Jun 2, 2011)

One reason I brought this up is that I'm trying to improve my fitness... but even though I'm only competing against myself, I do get carried away sometimes. The other day I dropped my son off at the park for a MA lesson and took off for a jog. I went for about 50 minutes or about 5 miles. That's a real improvement for a guy who had to stop all running of any kind for about 30 years after a skiing injury in college. A few years ago I got some custom orthotics that make it possible for me to run again. But I was definitely sore the next day. The muscle pains don't worry me, but the joint pain in the ankles and knees is more troublesome.

Today I got carried away again. Got to hitting the wall bag and did 4,000 continuous chain punches, took a short break for a couple of minutes, then cranked out another thousand phoenix-eye and double-punches for a total of 5,000. But it actually felt good... a lot like running. Nothing like a seminar I once took back about 1990 with Emin where he had us all "warm-up" with 10,000 punches. _That was hell_. Except for _him_, anyway. He's the freakin' Charles Atlas of WT. But for me, I think the trick is that I use a pretty soft bag, (filled with pinto beans) and consciously work to be as _absolutely relaxed_ as possible. It ends up almost being like "punching meditation" ... if that makes any sense. I just don't want to wake up one day and find that I've messed up my hands!


----------



## mook jong man (Jun 3, 2011)

geezer said:


> One reason I brought this up is that I'm trying to improve my fitness... but even though I'm only competing against myself, I do get carried away sometimes. The other day I dropped my son off at the park for a MA lesson and took off for a jog. I went for about 50 minutes or about 5 miles. That's a real improvement for a guy who had to stop all running of any kind for about 30 years after a skiing injury in college. A few years ago I got some custom orthotics that make it possible for me to run again. But I was definitely sore the next day. The muscle pains don't worry me, but the joint pain in the ankles and knees is more troublesome.
> 
> Today I got carried away again. Got to hitting the wall bag and did 4,000 continuous chain punches, took a short break for a couple of minutes, then cranked out another thousand phoenix-eye and double-punches for a total of 5,000. But it actually felt good... a lot like running. Nothing like a seminar I once took back about 1990 with Emin where he had us all "warm-up" with 10,000 punches. _That was hell_. Except for _him_, anyway. He's the freakin' Charles Atlas of WT. But for me, I think the trick is that I use a pretty soft bag, (filled with pinto beans) and consciously work to be as _absolutely relaxed_ as possible. It ends up almost being like "punching meditation" ... if that makes any sense. I just don't want to wake up one day and find that I've messed up my hands!



Like Joy said , you don't have to go full bore on the wall bag , I don't and if I do I only hit it from an inch or two away.
Personally I think the main benefit of the device is that it develops  your focus and  your stance , learning to relax the thighs and absorb the recoil.

People say doing many repetitions of  things is boring , but they are only boring if you are practicing them at a purely physical level.

Once you use your  mind in directing the movement , then the concentration that is required makes it most enjoyable and interesting.

If people saw me pivoting slowly from side to side , they would probably think that was very boring , as I did when I was a very junior student.

But now being more experienced I am aware of the finer points of the exercise , and to the onlooker I am just twisting slowly from side to side.

But internally I am actively monitoring the feedback of the pressure on my feet as I shift my bodyweight , trying to find that centre of gravity.

While at the same time I am mentally focusing on using my mind to rotate my core and maintain my body unity.
Now if that is not enough to keep your mind engaged I don't know what is.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jun 3, 2011)

Good points, Mook

joy


----------



## mograph (Jun 3, 2011)

My trumpet teacher told me that whenever i practice, i should _play well_. In that context, it meant that the tone of each note should be good -- anything else is a waste of practice. I may trip up on a fingering exercise, but each note should be played well as I learn a sequence or passage. As for repetition, I try to improve each time i practice something. This works as long as I know what "improvement" sounds like.

The martial equivalent might be that the student should know the appropriate basic principle for his/her level, and respect that principle when practicing a sequence or technique. As for repetition, if the student knows what improvement looks or feels like, then he or she can try to make each repetition slightly better. Of course, sometimes it takes a lot of repetitions to feel an improvement. 

(Thanks for the good advice, everyone. Your words apply to many martial arts, not just Wing Chun.)


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Jun 3, 2011)

Mograph , You make me miss my guitar.Though i wasn't that good i enjoyed playing it to meditate...I think i'm gonna buy an acoustic.


----------

