# Western Martial Arts



## Despairbear (Oct 26, 2001)

Greetings all,

I am wondering if anyone else has had and experiance with western martial arts: Hans Talboffer, Solthurner Fechtbuch, Paradox Of Defence, etc... 
One of the biggest problems I run into is the lack of a direct line of training. When I study Aikido I can trace my training back from teacher to student say around 1000 years. With WMA (western martial arts) no one has been training sword and buckler fighting for some time now and my only guide is the manuals written in the period and the people I can train with. Thus my tring is often not taken seriously by other martial arts students.
Point #2 . The popular thought that only EMA (eastern martial arts) have any validity. The more I study the unarmed combat of the germans and italians the more I see conections to other martial arts. Many throws illistrated in a 14th century itialian woodcut can also be found practiced in a modern jujitsu dojo. Different peoples different parts of the world and diffrent centurys but the same understanding of comabt, I belive that must mean something. In an effort to train as a well rounded martial artist I think it is time we looked to the WMA as another source of martial knowlage.



Despair Bear


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 26, 2001)

Welcome! 

Valid points.  I've seen alot of 'poo-pooing' of non eastern martial arts by some so called experts.  1 arguement I had with an individual boiled down to "If its not chinese MA, its not MA" which totally ignored the other asiatic arts because "they all came from China".  My reply was that he needed to open his eyes more.  

Some folks will discount a style or art because its not 1000000000 years old.  My opinion is if it works 4 ya, then its good.  I mean, why get into a pissing match over "white crane gungfu is better cuz its older than Krav Magra"?

I think to find folks who have been training in the European arts, the SCA and similar organizations may present a good starting place to help in the research part.  While not as obvious, there have to be a few out there.


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## Despairbear (Oct 26, 2001)

Ah an open mind, thank you. 
I have been playing with the SCA for about 10 years now, but what they use is more of a martial sport than a martial art. Still very fun mind you but when you add rules to combat then you become a martial sport rather than a martial art. 
I spend a good portion of my free time doing research into WMA and the information is out there most people just dont know about it. One problem is that not too many people out there know how to read High Medevial German, and most who do (I think there are about a handfull in the country) are already working on there own research projects. So many of the best "fight books" have never been translated, or when they are it get a "rough" translation by some one who knows nothing of hand to hand combat and the translation suffers from it. So students like myself are stuck looking at pictures drawn 1000 years ago by people who where martial artists first and artists dead last.
Don't get me wrong I am not trying to start a "pissing contest" I study any martial art I can get my hands on I love'em all. I have just sorta taken it on myslef to help with the re-birth of WMA and look for people who are interested as well and hopfully point them in the right direction. There are a lot of great martial arts in the world and most people are only aware of a very small percentage of them and I fond that to be a pitty.



Despair Bear


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 26, 2001)

I agree, alot of those translations are, um, hard to follow.  I've skimmed through a few, Paradox Of Defence comes to mind, but its hard for an inexperienced person like myself to understand it.

I'd be interested in seeing some info on Roman sword techniques, and "Musketteer" era concepts.


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## Despairbear (Oct 26, 2001)

Hmmm...... Roman I dont know of much that has survived that long. Some of the early manuals I am aware of come from the 10th century.
 As for the "musketeer" era the is actualy quite a bit out there, if you know where to look that is. I don't know what the protocol is for posting links here, or even if you are interested but I can send you in the right direction. one of the hardest things about WMA is getting the propper equipment and not having to sell your soul to do so. A good replica word can run $250-$1000 depending on what you want. The modern fencing swords are not at all acseptable, they are soooooo far from a real weapon that it is almost funny (No offence to fencers ment, fencing is a very fun sport but not a martial art in my view). Look around for Agrippa, who is consitered by many the "Master" of raipier comabt. You should be able to find something by him on the web and from there the door to WMA is open for you. 


Despair Bear


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## GouRonin (Oct 26, 2001)

For someone who gets upset when people don't consider WMA as MA you shouldn't diss Fencing. They have excellent entry technique. A lot of what they do can be applied.

As for other WMA I consider boxing to be the great WMA although under sport rules it is often disguised. Both sports have excellent footwork and both can be applied in self defence.

You might want to look into such "arts" as "51 Hands" AKA "Jailhouse Rock."


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## Despairbear (Oct 26, 2001)

I am not "diss"ing fencing at all it is a very fun sport I much like boxing, they may have martial applications but to consiter them martial arts can be naive. I play with a few martial sports and enjoy them a great deal but I would not consiter them a realistic form of combat, that attitude can be dangerous when a real encounter comes to hand. 
Some problems with fencing include the straight line style of combat, especialy when you are dealing with a weapon. Also the lack of "cor'de cor" or infighting and grappling with weapons. In some styles of fenceing the hands and feet are not legal targets not is the head a face, personaly I feel the hands a great targets (hehehe, as my sparring partners soon learn). 
Boxing falls to similer problems, a lack of grappling and no lower targets/kicks. As well as a lack of ability to deal with a weapon. I enjoy boxing and have a lot of fun sparring in a boxing style it can be very safe for a beginer to play with to get used to the idea of getting hit with out having to worrie about blowing out a knee or falling under pressure. 
It is all real fun stuff, and a good aid in traing but I feel it should not be treated as a martial art for all the resions I have named above but that in no way lesses the ejoyment of the sports.
As to "jailhouse rock" I have never seen any deffinitive proof that such a thing exists, if you have any by all means bring it forward and let us set it upon the table and take a look as students of the martial arts. I am always looking for new and creative styles to play with and add to my experiance.


Despair Bear


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 26, 2001)

Links posting policy - pretty flexible.  If you're refering to a source, then post as part of your post (gee, thats redundant) , as long as its on topic, and in the right forum.  If you're posting a general "Kool site, take a look" type thing, we have a general 'Links' Forum for those.  An Idea might be to put up a post in there on "Western Sowrd Techineques Links" and list a few sites under it maybe?

I agree, that the 'Sport' styles while fun, and often a great workout, are far from a 'combat' art.  It's on of the reasons why I like some of the sword arts I've examined.  They teach real techniques, not just how to score points.

I've also seen that alot of techniques from various arts work well with a variety of weapons.  Sinwalis come to mind.  I've done them with Stick, Sai, and short sword (wakasashi).  Gonna try with Bokken and Butterfly swords sometime.  Maybe be tracing that back, you may uncover some Spanish styles, given the spanish influence on the Philipines.

In any event, I'd be interested in more info, simply because I'm a sword nut.   Plus, I don't think what I've seen on TV has in any way acurately represented what a 13th century knight would have done.


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## GouRonin (Oct 26, 2001)

The difference is how you apply it and the mindset as far as I see. Facets of many sports are interchangable with the art. Doesn't mean I'd use a sport like an art if it came down to "go" time but I'd damn well use parts of it.


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## Despairbear (Oct 26, 2001)

Sinwalis???? Never heard of it, what is it? 

When I sparr with my "students" I often use EMA methods of movment certin styles of stick fighting and the like. The jump from a 32 in. stick to a 32 inch blade is not a hard one to make if you keep in mind that your angle of attack must change to cut with a blade. 

Some of the older spanish stuff could be really interesting. The Swiss dominated war for some years with there polearm styles, mostly a re-introduction of the greek Phalanx. Then the Spanish developed a broadsword and buckler style that I hear had the Swiss running like crazy, I think is may have been developed as a counter to the Swiss polearm. Anyway I would be interested to see if any of that made its way over to the Philipines and was included in their stick fighting styles. 

Take a look at:
http://www.theduellist.co.uk/
http://www.thehaca.com/

They both have some good online material for WMA, enjoy.

Yes most/all of what you see in the movies with people fighting with swords is horribly horribly wrong and has almost no connection to the fighting styles of the period. As you look around you may find somethings quite suprising about sword combat, such as the ability to grab the blade of a sword with an unarmord hand as part of your attack. Nifty stuff tell me what you think when you can take a min to look at some of it. I would love to have some more people to talk to about it all.



Despair Bear


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## Despairbear (Oct 26, 2001)

No argument there GouRonin, but too often I have seen people blur the line between martial sport and martial art with grave results. Tae-bo is a great example, while a great workout most people I have seen do not teach it as a martial art. But the students who take tae-bo think they are learning how to fight, and can get them selves in a situation where they will get hurt. Perhpas the founder of tae-bo can use it as a combat form but I have not seen anyone else who can. But I have seen people after they have been trashed who thought tae-bo woudl save them.



Despair Bear


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## Cthulhu (Oct 27, 2001)

I don't think one could classify Tae-Bo as a martial sport since I have yet to see a competition for it.  At best, it could be called 'martial art-based fitness'.  The few people I've encountered who have taken it have been well aware that Tae-Bo is about as combat effective as a 3-week-old melon rind.

It's a shame, since Blanks was a fairly prominent martial artist at one time.

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin (Oct 27, 2001)

I agree about the Tae-bo stuff. I have spoken with people who think it will save them when in trouble. Man, I can't believe people let other people get away with believing that. Case in point. I spoke with a TKD black belt who felt her Tae-Bo training augmented her punching abilities and the combination of the two made her invincable in her mind. I told her that really, the cardio Tae-bo gave her was her best bet because her TKD wasn't going to save her anymore than her Tae-bo and her best weapon was to start running.

I offered myself up in case she wanted to show me how she'd kick my *** but she declined as her Sensei made her sign a do***ent stating she was a registered weapon and would be legally more responsible if she hurt me. Oh my god I laughed. I asked her if he took money for that and it turns out he did. It was an extra 250.00$ added to her TKD black belt test. I told her that the guy rooked her for at LEAST 250.00$ because the paper meant nothing. She didn't believe me and so I called a friend of mine who was a cop and he said to her face that yeah they had a file for that do***ent, it was circular and it went out to the incinerator every night. She hasn't spoken to me since.

Even Sport TKD has some advantages but I agree that it's not realistic. The part that is good is the actual competition and use of some techniques. I probably shouldn't compare TKD and other arts like judo/boxing because the "partial art" I see myself as a stepping stone to becoming involved in a real martial art. Having said that once in a while you'll stumble across the real deal in TKD. But it's sooooo watered down and whored out it's silly.

I'm still trying to find that info on jailhouse rock/51 hands dude. I'll keep on it. I think someone here on this site had some info too.


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## Rob_Broad (Oct 27, 2001)

Tae - Bo is a very large joke.  In Century catalog they have a ton of Tae - Bo merchandise including a uniform and Black Belt.  How do you earn that.  Kim Dillman did a segment in Black Belt magazine about turning Tae Bo into practical applications with pressure points.   Billy Blanks just copied a good idea and had some amazing marketing to promote his Tae Bo.  Other than that he is just anoth Jane Fonda.


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## GouRonin (Oct 27, 2001)

TB, (not tuburculosis) has it's place. It is an excellent way to get people into the school. Mommy takes Tae-Bo and little Johnny comes with her and suddenly he's in a kids program. Or maybe it keeps mommy involved and little Johnny too so the whole family keeps coming.

And you know what? I think that's ok. Whatever gets them to the school is ok with me. But don't pass it off as self-defence.

Besides, some of those ladies look sooooo hot in the spandex! Do ya hear me fellas? Hey? What?
:hammer:


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## Rob_Broad (Oct 27, 2001)

Spandex looks great on the right body.  I hate to see it on the wrong body.  It is very scary to see a load bearing thong!


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## Icepick (Oct 28, 2001)

D'Bear -

Sinawali comes from the Tagalog word "to weave", and it refers to a common FMA drill where partners strike at each other in a pattern, usually with 2 sticks, but you can mix the weapons up for some spice.  A great reaction/coordination drill.  If you want more details to try them with your class, let me know, or ask over on the FMA board.  There are a lot of real good arnisidores on here, and I think Renegade teaches more variety of sinawali than anyone else I've ever seen.

:mst:


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## Cthulhu (Oct 28, 2001)

The TKD guy I train with teaches an 8-count drill with double sticks, yet never heard the word 'sinawalli' before.  I think he learned the drill from someone else without realizing where it came from.

Cthulhu
still embarrassed from banging said TKD guy's knuckle while doing that drill


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## Rob_Broad (Oct 28, 2001)

Don't feel embarassed TKD guys usually only use their hands for eating anyway.


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## Cthulhu (Oct 28, 2001)

...but still funny!

Actually, this guy has also trained in Isshin-ryu and used to train boxers and kickboxers.  He's got a wicked hook punch.  He's very aware of the lack of hand techniques generally taught in TKD.

Cthulhu


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## Rob_Broad (Oct 28, 2001)

I only say what everybody else thinks.  I know some old school ITF TKD guys who can take your head off with a hook punch.  But today most people only see and hear about WTF TKD.

I don't kow about the rest of the Canadians but everytime I type"KD" I remember college.


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## Despairbear (Oct 28, 2001)

Here is a quetsion for all of you. Today I was working with some of my "students" and we where going threw some knife v.s knife combat from a 14th c. german manual. One of my people asked me why so many of the attacks where from a "icepick" (blade down) style. I have worked with a fellow who was teaching a form of Philipino (sp?) knife fighting that involved a more standard blde forward attack and lots of small hand cuts a very diffrent style than that of the germans. Any thoughts on the "icepick" style of attack and why it may be so common the manuals of the middle ages?



Despair Bear


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## Cthulhu (Oct 29, 2001)

One reason I can think of is to aid in penetrating some type of light armor, like leather or possibly even chain mail.  Also, the grip could give you more control in attacking the joints of heavier plate armor.

Just a thought.  I'd probably have to see the manual myself to find the reason.

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin (Oct 29, 2001)

I too would have to agree with chugalugathoo. The proliferation of body armour probably neccesitated the need for the "icepick" grip to better gain power to get through the armour. Also it would allow the body to be manipulated easier. As people opted out of the heavy armour for more manouverable clothes the foreward grips probably came to more fashionable style.

Correct me if I am wrong but the FMA use the forward style because they did not use the armour that the europeans used and therefore had more of a cutting advantage. Of course they didn't mind changing to %$#@ up the spanish when they tried to take over now did they? Heh heh heh...

And Rob, to this day I will not eat powdered cheese.


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## arnisador (Oct 29, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Despairbear _
> *Any thoughts on the "icepick" style of attack and why it may be so common the manuals of the middle ages?*



I think it was because the short blade was used mostly for defense and the long blade for attack. The dagger was being used like a tonfa used for blocking and only rarely as a dagger to attack. The issue of additional power to break through armor also makes sense but I do believe the short weapon was mostly defensive and the grip was selected with defense in mind. Of course some styles used it to parry in a blade-forward manner as well.

For fighting between two individuals both armed only with knives the blade-forward method is strongly preferred in general.


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## Despairbear (Oct 30, 2001)

Some interesting theorys. The manual I am thinking of treats armored combat in a seperate section that that of unarmored with knife, so I am not too sure about the idea of a icepick style used to penitrate armor. As for the tonfa comment, I tend to agree; in "The Flower of Battle" 1410 an illistrated combat between a sword and a knife the icepick grip is used to parry the sword strike. 

Here is another question for you all. In most WMA manuals the gripping of the blade of knifes and swords is a sugested manuver have you run into any EMA styles that will utilise the gripping of the blade?



Despair Bear


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## Cthulhu (Oct 30, 2001)

...for the icepick grip:  it could be possible that the metals used at that time couldn't retain an adequate edge for long, so slashing attacks with something as small as a knife wouldn't be as effective as stabbing attacks.

Cthulhu


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 31, 2001)

I vaguely remember reading at some point that they only used to use the point, and that slashing attacks came later, or was it the reverse?  I dunno.  Too much codine today I think. 

But the soft metal idea is a definate.  softer metals didn't stay sharp as long, or straight.


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## Despairbear (Nov 1, 2001)

Well the soft metal theroy is interesting but simply not true. Tempered pattern forged weapons hold an incredible edge and while the mettal availible to the smiths of the time was not of the quality that we use today (due to modern metalurgy practices) it was more than enough to make a weapon out of. Any weapon that bent that eazy (when it was not ment to) simply would not be used, it was too dangerous. 

I think what it may come down to is simply a type of style for the time. 


Despair Bear


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## Cthulhu (Nov 1, 2001)

I didn't mean that the metal was of such poor quality that it would bend; simply that it wouldn't retain an edge.  Even modern blades of quality steel won't hold an edge if sharpened at the wrong angle.  Also, if the steel was strong and brittle, the edge would constantly chip with use.

Cthulhu


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## Icepick (Nov 1, 2001)

D'Bear -

I've seen Dr. Gyi of Bando teach a "mid-grip", where he sort of clamps or gums (no thumb) the belly of the blade to counter a defender who grabs your knife hand with both of his hands.  Maybe it was more commonplace with gauntlets on.


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## GouRonin (Nov 1, 2001)

I have also seen people used that grip for control purposes on a knife.

As for metal and it's consistancies, if you have any specific questions regarding them I have a friend who makes knives professionally.
http://members.tripod.com/~kenpo_ronin/joearnold.html
I can ask him questions or you can ask him yourself for your research.


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## bscastro (Nov 1, 2001)

I both like and don't like Tae Bo. I think it's a great workout when done correctly and intensely. But even as exercise, case should be given to make sure technique is correct and that the person doing it doesn't rush into it as they can pull something if they are not careful.

However, I agree that it is dangerous for Tae Bo-ers to think they can defend themselves. Also, it is unethical for an instructor to have them think they can do so.

Bryan


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## GouRonin (Nov 1, 2001)

The one testimonial implies that the woman, "Now feels safer walking the streets."

I assume that it's because she is in shape to run faster and for longer.


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## Icepick (Nov 1, 2001)

Has anyone run across any info on the use of the shillelagh?  I know it wasn't primarily a weapon, but apparently my great-grandfather wielded his with some skill on the Buffalo docks during the Depression.  I've always wondered if there were any documented techniques.


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## GouRonin (Nov 1, 2001)

You don't have a pic of one do you because I'm not sure if I have ever seen what a standard one looks like.


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## Icepick (Nov 2, 2001)

Gou -


http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1023864547

btw, congrats on the 500th post, you REALLY keep this place hopping!


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## Cthulhu (Nov 2, 2001)

Has anyone here ever practiced in Savate, either formally or just tinkering around?  I ilke the theory behind some of their kicks, though I'd probably implement them differently (I don't like how the rear hand swings back for balance and power).

Cthulhu


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## Despairbear (Nov 2, 2001)

As to gripping the blade, even with a full gauntlet the palm of your hand is unprotected. Gauntlets where used to protect the back of the hand and to transfer the impact to the hilt of the weapon being held. I have played around with live steel knifes gripping the blade a few different ways. One way was grabbing the "flats" of the blade it seemed to work ok but was not a very strong grip. The other way was a very firm grip around the whole blade ut seemed to work a little better. Woudl I use either of these in combat? I don't know, I guess if some one was trying to kill me with a knife I would do what ever I had to. 


Just remeber; in a knife fight the guy who bleeds to death last wins.


Despair Bear


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## GouRonin (Nov 2, 2001)

Looks like a golf club to me. Golf clubs are excellent weapons.


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## IFAJKD (Nov 9, 2001)

There is a lot on here...wow. Sinawali means to weave in tagalog. It does have spanish influence but it has had many different looks. double stick method that averages aprox 6 hits a second. Basic starting chambered. Inward, backhand, backhand. mix high and low strikes. 

Bruce Lee would say that it is too bad we place more trust on what we follow than what we create. I believe that the systems put together in the last 30 years are much more effective than most traditional styles. This is why they have been put together. Todays martial artist is such a more highly evolved fighter that we have to continue to cross train. Many don't accept this point of view but are quickly shown if they like. Train in all you can. If your Instructor doesn't like it change Instructors. Find many many many many many many Have fun and keep going.


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## arnisador (Nov 9, 2001)

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> *Bruce Lee would say that it is too bad we place more trust on what we follow than what we create. *



For example, the trust in everything Bruce Lee said. Bruce Lee quotes have truly exploded on this board recently.



> *I believe that the systems put together in the last 30 years are much more effective than most traditional styles. This is why they have been put together.*



I think that this requires the caveat that while some of this is due to modern training methods, some of it is due to making styles that are appropriate to the way people fight today. I think I'd rather use aikido against an opponent coming at me with a samurai sword than Brazilian Ju-Jitsu (not that either would allow a great chance of survival of course). The "evolutionary environment" of an art should be taken into account. Isshin-ryu has a kata oriented towards fighting in a rice paddy at night (or so I was told at the time). Things change.

I would also add that the modern arts have benefitted greatly from the fact that some purists have preserved the traditional arts for them to mix. There would be no Brazilian Ju-Jitsu without Judo, and no Judo without Ju-Jitsu; similarly for JKD and Wing Chun, etc. The modern arts were developed from that base and owe an intellectual debt to them.


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## IFAJKD (Nov 9, 2001)

I don't think that anyone will ever get away from the Bruce. Fact is he started it all with JKD and gaining acceptance for others to alos go that route. There were other systems that did this earlier such as many Filipino systems but Bruce had world recognition going for him at the time and attributes that nobody could or has touched yet.
 JKD today is still evolutionary and much has been created so to imply that we follow this same thought is untrue. 

Samurai sword vs empty hand...well enough said about that moot point.


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## Cthulhu (Nov 9, 2001)

Heh.  If someone was coming at me with a katana and I didn't see it coming from a mile away (not easy to conceal with modern clothing), then I'd say I was in deep poo-poo from the outset.    Point taken, though, about the use of aikido for defense.

Cthulhu


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 9, 2001)

Finally found a link I was looking for to answer Despairbears original request for info....

Historical Armed Combat Association 
http://www.thehaca.com/

Very interesting site....must reexamine it sometime myself.


:asian:


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## arnisador (Nov 9, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Heh.  If someone was coming at me with a katana and I didn't see it coming from a mile away (not easy to conceal with modern clothing), then I'd say I was in deep poo-poo from the outset.*



Yes, I am reminded of George Dillman quoting his old instructor saying that if you need two hands to block your opponent (as in Seuichin), then you're in the wrong fight.



> *Point taken, though, about the use of aikido for defense.*



Perhaps a better example would have been aikido, ju-jitsu, and iaido techniques for defending oneself while sitting in seiza position. Useful now? Not very. Useful then? Probably. In need of updating? Yes. But deserving of some respect for having been appropriate for their time? Presumably they were effective back then, and so yes.

I believe that there are Filipino kicking systems that include techniques for fighting with sharpened coins and similar implements between one's toes. These might not be useful to us now, but to them then I imagine it was. These may well have been the modern martial arts of their times. Of course we must look to what is useful now, but I think the traditional arts deserve more respect than I feel they sometimes get in the context of modern/mixed martial arts--this is what motivates my comments.


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## Cthulhu (Nov 9, 2001)

I seem to remember an account of a martial art system (Filipino? Southeast Asian?) where the practitioners promptly dropped to the ground in a seated, crouched, or kneeling position after the first move.  Apparently the region where the style was developed was terribly muddy due to frequent heavy rains.  Since any fighter would invariably go to the ground because of the bad footing, they trained to do that automatically, but in a controlled fashion.

Then again, I could have dreamed this all up in my caffeine-induced frenzy.

Cthulhu


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## Despairbear (Nov 10, 2001)

Fighting from seiza? On one hand you have a point probably not going to happen, on the other hand what if you are attacked while in your car? Swari-waza (sp?) teaches movement with out having to use your feet, very usefull in many situations. Most martial artists today will not be attacked with a sword but the movements of a sword attack can be used against a baseball bat or a bayonet or a pool cue. People who developed what we now call "traditional" martial arts did so in a world where a un-effective martial art meant death, not so in this modern world and that must mean something. To modernize a "traditional" art start with your mind set, little else may be required.




Despair Bear


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## IFAJKD (Nov 10, 2001)

so many factors have gone into the development of different systems. I am not knocking traditional arts. I have tremendous respect for them. I have however come accross too many Instructors who teach such unrealistic technique and present it in an unrealistic manner as to what it is , what it does and it's effectiveness. Since more and more martial artists have come in and challenged that kind of mentality through their mixed MA background, and since it has become more and more acceptable to "cross train", Instructors have had to take a more complete look at what they are teaching. Some didn't change, some changed how they presented and others sought to cross train. 
We don't live in a martial envrionment so we don't have to train for a specific enemy. yet many of us have had situations where we had to focus on very applicable techniques. Yet some have never tested what they train. 

Traditional arts have many benefits, and I agree that at times it doesn't get the respect it deserves. I have never seen an art where something useful couldn't be drawn from it. Would I study the entire art for this ? No. Yet I do want to understand why others do, given all that is out there. This helps me in many ways. Sometimes the only way to understand some points is to challenge them. 
Ultimately, we must remain open and ever the student.


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## arnisador (Nov 10, 2001)

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> *so many factors have gone into the development of different systems. I am not knocking traditional arts. I have tremendous respect for them. *



Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that you in particular were--it's something that was on my mind from other discussions elsewhere. 



> [B}Sometimes the only way to understand some points is to challenge them.
> Ultimately, we must remain open and ever the student. [/B]



Both of these are good points, and I agree.

It's amazing that after all these centuries there are still innovations to be made! There's enough in martial arts for millenia, so there's certainly enough to keep one interested for a lifetime.


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## IFAJKD (Nov 11, 2001)

I hear that, I have been doing this most my life and I feel I just scratched the surface. I have never stopped feeling like a student.


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## Icepick (Nov 26, 2001)

DespairBear -

Found a site that might interest you.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/shillelagh.html

I liked it!


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## Jay Bell (Nov 26, 2001)

I agree with Despair.  In Shinden Fudo ryu, the second level of training is all done from Fudoza no Kamae (seated).  While I doubt I'll ever be bum rushed while in Fudoza, the same principles and concepts are used when seated in a chair.

In Budo Taijutsu, Sensei often breaks out training guns to show how waza would be done with a gun instead of a sword.  Some enjoy living in an age past in their training.  Others do what's needed to bridge the gap.

As rare as it is, my life will probably end with never having been cut at with a katana.  Baseball bat on the other hand...


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## arnisador (Dec 28, 2003)

Lots of articles:
http://www.gutterfighting.org/Main.html


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## arnisador (Dec 30, 2003)

www.apacheknife.com (Apache Knife Warrior Arts-GhostDog System)


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## westernwarrior (Dec 31, 2003)

Wow, I haven't been here in a while.

Anyway, in answer to the very first question on this thread, there are a number of living traditions in Western Martial Arts. Here's a list transcribed from the Western Arts mailing list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/western-arts/)

From:   " Ken Pfrenger" <kenpfrenger@n...>
Date:  Mon Dec 29, 2003  12:41 pm
Subject:  Living traditions the list so far

So far we have:

19th century Classical Fencing - the dueling traditions of 19th century Italy
Dirk fighting (possible)
"Graeco-Roman" wrestling (actually a French reconstruction of ancient Olympic
wrestling, dating from the late 1800s)
Icelandic Glima
Canarian Juego del Palo (many sub-styles)
Portuguese Jogo do Pau
Canne Italiana
Venezuelan Garotte Larense
Belgian bajonette-fechten (possibly)
Italian la Paranza stickfighting
Savate(By this I mean the whole Savate complex, lutte, le canne etc...feel free
to expand on this you savateurs out there)
Breton Gouren
Cornish Wrestling
Western Boxing
Cumberland and Westmoreland wrestling
Highland wrestling
Irish Coraiocht
Swiss Schwingen
Navaja Sevilliano(Sp?)
Lancashire Catchascatchcan wrestling
Singlestick
Uisce Baetha Bata Rince irish stick
Lucha Leonesa http://encina.pntic.mec.es/~jmigue4/index.html
Ranggeln, Austrian wrestling
S'istrumpa, Sardinian wrestling

We'll add Tonys disclaimer her since it makes so much sense:
Some of these would have to be placed
under "living traditions going by the best info. to date" - they may yet
turn out to be re-invented traditions. It can be difficult to set hard and
fast criteria, especially since most living traditions have adapted and
borrowed from other sources over the decades.

Now i know there are alot more...feel free to add to the list.

Slán
Ken

That mailing list is a fantastic resource for information on all WMAs.

On the icepick grip:
There are numerous possible reasons, some have been mentioned like defeating light armor or hitting the gaps between heavy armor. Also, these older WMAs have a tendancy to repeat skills. By that I mean a wrestling move you use unarmed will be re-used in knife fighting, and againt using a longsword as leverage, and again with a pole-arm. The icepick grip is more effective over a wide range of armor and threats than the sabre grip.

On traditional vs. mixed MA:

In reality, I don't think the reconstructed WMAs are understood well enough to be used primarily for self-defense. The study of these arts come mostly from those interested in the time period rather than those looking to fight off an attacker on the street. In time, we will be able to use the skills learned from these arts and modify them for our present-day situations (I have already heard stories of people defending themselves with their trainging in the wrestling or knife-fighting of the time) but for now I think the community is best served by seeking to deeper out understanding and spread the knowledge we gain from the books of the old masters.


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## arnisador (Dec 31, 2003)

There are several ther I don't recognize--I'll have to look around and see what I can find on the web.


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## jrackley (May 15, 2004)

Cthulhu said:
			
		

> I don't think one could classify Tae-Bo as a martial sport since I have yet to see a competition for it. At best, it could be called 'martial art-based fitness'. The few people I've encountered who have taken it have been well aware that Tae-Bo is about as combat effective as a 3-week-old melon rind.
> 
> It's a shame, since Blanks was a fairly prominent martial artist at one time.
> 
> Cthulhu


Tae-Bo is a good cardio workout!


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## Livio Girotto (Dec 20, 2004)

Hello:

         El Juego del Garrote (also known as Garrote Larense) is the venezuelan stick fighting system. Even if it was very popular a century ago, it was almost terminated, because the masters of the art grew old and died, while the young people didn't care much about it. But luckily, twenty years ago, a venezuelan man called Eduardo Sanoja met a peasant who was a Garrote Master, named Mercédez Pérez, who agreed to teach him. Since then, Mr. Eduardo started a movement to rescue that venezuelan tradition, I got involved with that action.

          I was lucky enough to become a Mercédez Pérez student sixteen years ago.

          If you want to know more about this subject, contact me trought www.garrotelarense.org, or livio@garrotelarense.org.

          Regards to you all,

                                    Livio Girottoartyon:


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## Shane Smith (May 31, 2005)

I have been studying and teaching these methods for years within the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts ( www.thearma.org ) . I am in particular a big fan of Master Ringecks method of unarmoured longsword.


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