# 2 options



## Mr. President (Apr 29, 2014)

I'm struggling between which martial arts program to choose. It's down to 2 options and each has its pros and cons. Obviously it comes down to personal preference, but if you can shed any light I might have missed, it would be nice:

1) *Seibukan Jujutsu Uchi Deshi program*: Operating out of Monterey, California, It's taught by the founder of the style, Toribio Sensei. It's about 4-5 hours a day, 5 and a half days a week. The program is accelerated, so one can claim his Nidan rank in one year in Jujutsu, while also studying Aikikai Aikido.

Pros: Monterey is an absolutely charming town, right on the pacific coast. The dojo is minutes away from the ocean. A town with a laid back atmosphere with good people all around. Uchi Deshi graduates can become instructors later on in some of the other branches in the U.S.

Cons: The living arrangements are dorm style and I'm not a dorm kind of guy. I definitely need my alone time when I'm not in training. The program alone costs $5400 for the year, not including housing or anything else. Just the training. 

Uchideshi Training Seibukan Jujutsu Martial Art Apprentice Program

2) *Kempo Jujutsu and combat Systema intensive program*: Operating out of Kevin Secours' school in downtown Montreal, the program focuses on these two martial arts. About 4 hours a day, 5 and a half days a week, seminars here and there. Includes a lot of body conditioning drills. Not sure about the belt you get after a year of training. 

Pros: Kevin Secours is awesome. A phenomenal teacher by all accounts. Since it's not officially a live-in program, you can rent whatever apartment you want anywhere in the city. Whether you show up to a specific class or not is up to you. No one is chasing you or forcing you. The program itself, not including anything else, is only $750 (Canadian). Much much cheaper.

Cons: Montreal is a hectic city, so it's a hectic environment. No implied understanding of possible employment after a year of intensive training, though it is possible depending on your progress and dedication.

http://www.montrealsystema.com/uploads/IFS_Price_List-2014.pdf

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thoughts? Recommendations? Tips?


----------



## ballen0351 (Apr 29, 2014)

Any reason your in a hurry?


----------



## Mr. President (Apr 29, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Any reason your in a hurry?



It's not about being in a hurry. I just want some feedback because maybe I'm missing something that someone else might not.


----------



## ballen0351 (Apr 29, 2014)

Mr. President said:


> It's not about being in a hurry. I just want some feedback because maybe I'm missing something that someone else might not.



Where do you live now?  California is very expensive to live.  Closer to the beach the higher it goes.  If you have to be in class 6 days a week finding time to work to pay the bills will be hard


----------



## K-man (Apr 29, 2014)

Well it's a coincidence but I just spent this past weekend training with Kevin Secours here in Australia.  He is a very knowledgeable guy, he has great knowledge but more importantly he has great understanding both of the techniques and the way the body works. Kevin has trained to a high level in jujutsu so by going with him I'm sure you would pick up all those skills as well as the Systema. 

I have no knowledge of the other style apart from Aikikai Aikido which is the basis of the style I have been learning for coming up to eight years now. It certainly complements your other training. To me it sounds like both are great options but having trained with Kevin, and of course loving Systema, I would probably go that way. As to belts ... Systema doesn't normally have belts, just great training. 

Good luck!
:asian:


----------



## Mr. President (Apr 29, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Where do you live now?  California is very expensive to live.  Closer to the beach the higher it goes.  If you have to be in class 6 days a week finding time to work to pay the bills will be hard



That's not an issue. I can afford both without working. That being said, I'm not a millionaire, and of course I want more bang for the buck. Plus, if I do manage to become an instructor after a year or more of hard training, then I can start making money.

Money is not my main concern, but it is a factor.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Apr 29, 2014)

Either program sounds like it could be fantastic, assuming you can afford to just train full-time and not have to work for a living for a full year. (I would not count on being able to hold down a job while devoting that kind of time to training.)

Some questions:

Have you ever done this kind of intensive training before, even for a week or so? If you're not physically prepared it may be a bit much to just jump into.

Have you ever trained either art before? If you discover that you don't enjoy the art you choose it will be hard (and pointless) to devote that kind of sustained effort to the training. I wouldn't invest the time, energy, and money into a program like this unless I knew I was in love with the art I was studying.

Have you met either instructor before? If you are spending 20+ hours per week with a given instructor and it turns out that you don't get along or that his teaching style doesn't match your learning style or that he is abusive or exploitive towards his uchideshi students* it could end up being an unpleasant year.

*(Despite the stated ideals of martial arts training, this is not at all an unheard of situation.)

Will you have good health insurance? Training 20-25 hours per week carries a decent risk for injuries. (Also if you are overtaxed by your training, you have a greater chance of running down your immune system and catching a nasty bug.) Having to work out every day with an injury you can't afford to get treated is not a happy situation.

Good luck with whatever you choose.  If you do end up attending one of these programs, please post reports from your training.


----------



## Transk53 (Apr 29, 2014)

Mr. President said:


> That's not an issue. I can afford both without working. That being said, I'm not a millionaire, and of course I want more bang for the buck. Plus, if I do manage to become an instructor after a year or more of hard training, then I can start making money.
> 
> Money is not my main concern, but it is a factor.



IMHO, forget about being an instructor (for now) and go with the instructor. K Man got it.


----------



## Mr. President (Apr 29, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Have you ever done this kind of intensive training before, even for a week or so? If you're not physically prepared it may be a bit much to just jump into.



I intend to work out as much as I can before going, and I'll be as ready as I could possibly be by that point. It will be much no matter what I do, so I'll just have to suck it up. Keep my focus on the goal.



> Have you ever trained either art before?



Some generic modulation of Jujutsu when I was younger. Nothing to write home about. I do love Aikido, but I can't be sure that that alone is worth the extra cost. I've always been curious about Systema, and it seems that Secours focuses on realism and real life scenarios in his combative training, and practicality is important to me. Plus that option also has ground survival.



> Have you met either instructor before?



Neither in person, but have been in some correspondence with both. I've heard more about Secours than I have about Toribio, and I've never heard anyone with any bad opinions about Secours. Everybody has been nothing but full of praise for the guy, so that helps.



> Will you have good health insurance?



Yeah, I'll be covered. I'm assuming they'll be 2-3 injuries to cope with throughout the year. I fully expect that. I'll try to avoid them as much as I can, but practicing hard is still practicing hard.


----------



## donald1 (Apr 29, 2014)

they both sound very nice... in my opinion id add up all the cons and decide which one was worse(don't go to that one)
if money is no problem got plenty of it then maybe the *Seibukan Jujutsu Uchi Deshi program
*but... if money is a problem then the second *Kempo Jujutsu and combat Systema intensive program*

whatever choice you make hopefully it will be the better one and wont be regreted
best of luck!


----------



## frank raud (Apr 29, 2014)

Does you insurance cover you in a foreign country? Parlez -vous francais?  Montreal is in Quebec, which is a province with what many consider to have draconian language laws. All signs are in French, all business dealings will be in French, do not count on getting service in English in most hospitals, etc. Yes, there are a lot of bilingual people in Montreal, but how comfortable are you signing a rental agreement in a language you don't read?


----------



## drop bear (Apr 29, 2014)

Which group of people are you less likely to want to kill if you were trapped in a room with them for a year?


----------



## Brian King (Apr 29, 2014)

Montreal is a very fun city, young, diverse and vibrant community, with an interesting history. Martial arts are big in the area with plenty of very good martial artists in that area. It has seasons meaning hot in summer and very cold in winter. It is a bilingual city with pho-French and English but it is no problem getting around with or without either. All signs and label have both English and French on them. If you try to speak a little of their French you will get along fine with the French sector, after all, they are still Canadians and Canadians get along with everyone. I do not know if you can get a visa or what kind of permits you might need to stay a year in Montreal. They do check your criminal background prior to getting into Canada (especially if you take train or plane) and will deny entry for various convections that are not necessarily such a big deal in the U.S.

Back when Kevin was still practicing Systema I traveled to Montreal two or three times to attend Vladimir Vasiliev and Martin Wheeler seminars there. I have been there in both summer and winter and enjoyed the visits but the summer the more. Kevin is a gifted instructor, able to articulate and perform at a high level. His students are friendly and work honestly. I do not know the program that you mentioned so cannot comment on it specifically or on what kind of job opportunities might come of it. These kinds of programs often have other requirements and require dedication over and above merely wanting to learn martial arts. Make sure you really want this in your life before you run off and join the circus. It is not for everybody or even most people.

I do not know how Kevin is teaching his version of martial arts, but, I know that through his exposure to Systema, I feel confident that his practice will be healthy. There might be bumps and bruises but there will be strength and coordination improvements. He understands that an injured student injures the program.

Both Canada and California have weird laws, so check those before you decide and make sure you can live within the laws of where ever you end up. Lots of Americans living and working in Canada.

Good luck with you decision
Regards
Brian King


----------



## Chris Parker (Apr 30, 2014)

Mr. President said:


> I'm struggling between which martial arts program to choose. It's down to 2 options and each has its pros and cons. Obviously it comes down to personal preference, but if you can shed any light I might have missed, it would be nice:
> 
> 1) *Seibukan Jujutsu Uchi Deshi program*: Operating out of Monterey, California, It's taught by the founder of the style, Toribio Sensei. It's about 4-5 hours a day, 5 and a half days a week. The program is accelerated, so one can claim his Nidan rank in one year in Jujutsu, while also studying Aikikai Aikido.
> 
> ...



What do you want out of your martial art? These are two quite different approaches/systems&#8230; the second isn't really even "Jujutsu", let alone a Japanese Jujutsu system, so it's kinda out of place here&#8230; and, frankly, we can't tell you what you'll like. All the details you give aren't really anything to help us at all, as it's your personal choice. In terms of the groups, though, the Seibukan group (that one, not any others&#8230; it's not an uncommon name, which is kinda odd in and of itself when you see where and how it's found) has a pretty good reputation&#8230; Toby Threadgill (head of Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu) is quite positive in his mention of both Toribio and his system&#8230; which, realistically, is also not a truly "Japanese" Jujutsu system, although it is based almost entirely in Japanese Jujutsu methods, specifically Hakko Ryu dominantly&#8230; and Kevin Secours, as you say, is someone that you only hear good things about. So, really, it's up to you. Your list of "pros and cons" are entirely your own preferences and ideals&#8230; honestly, you have to make up your own mind here.


----------



## frank raud (Apr 30, 2014)

E=Brian King;1633419]Montreal is a very fun city, young, diverse and vibrant community, with an interesting history. Martial arts are big in the area with plenty of very good martial artists in that area. It has seasons meaning hot in summer and very cold in winter. It is a bilingual city with pho-French and English but it is no problem getting around with or without either. All signs and label have both English and French on them. If you try to speak a little of their French you will get along fine with the French sector, after all, they are still Canadian&#8217;s and Canadian&#8217;s get along with everyone.  [/QUOTE]

Pho-French? Ce quoi ca? Having grown up in Montreal and visiting back there on a regular basis, I can't agree with all you are saying, thankfully you have not come across any separatists and their attitudes towards the English language and the xenophobia about people not from Quebec(Almost 50% of the population voted to separate from Canada at the last referendum).


----------



## Brian King (Apr 30, 2014)

"Pho-French? Ce quoi ca? Having grown up in Montreal and visiting back there on a regular basis, I can't agree with all you are saying, thankfully you have not come across any separatists and their attitudes towards the English language and the xenophobia about people not from Quebec(Almost 50% of the population voted to separate from Canada at the last referendum)."

LOL, I went to a comedy show there and the comedian was making fun of the French for making fun of the Quebec accent. Pho-French was his term and I thought it funny. I came across all kinds while there. It is part of the city and part of the history. I didn't let it bother me and had a great time all over the city and with all kinds of people. Idiots abound anywhere and everywhere. Learn a phrase or two in French or for what passes as French and a person will be fine as a tourist. Going to live there awhile - learn the languages and customs of where you will be staying. Common sense.

Regards
Brian King


----------



## frank raud (Apr 30, 2014)

Pho is Vietnamese soup, faux is French for fake.


----------



## Mr. President (May 1, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> the second isn't really even "Jujutsu", let alone a Japanese Jujutsu system, so it's kinda out of place here



Well, here's what his website says about it:

Modern Kempo Jujitsu (MKJ) was born on the fierce battlefields of 16th century Japan. In its traditional form, Kempo Jujitsu included all aspects of the Samurai warriors empty-handed arsenal. Kempo (the law of the fist) andJujitsu (the gentle art) referred to the original synthesis of striking and grappling arts into one functional combat art. Technique was designed to be quick, effective and brutal, but  also included a variety of restraint and control options, and a profound core of zen buddhist values and meditation techniques.

As the art evolved, the more traditional battlefield elements, like bare-handed defense versus sword and spear, were  replaced by a new emphasis on the use of contemporary weapons and contexts. With this came a larger focus onatemi-waza (vital point striking) and ground work as the restrictions presented by traditional armor were eliminated. 

The traditional balance between striking and grappling also evolved into a more fluid method of unrelenting striking, locking and throwing. The goal of the MKJpractitioner is to enter into their aggressors space swiftly, unbalance them through striking and leverage and to take them to the ground where the encounter can be controlled or ended.


----------



## Chris Parker (May 1, 2014)

Mr. President said:


> Well, here's what his website says about it:
> 
> Modern Kempo Jujitsu (MKJ) was born on the fierce battlefields of 16th century Japan. In its traditional form, Kempo Jujitsu included all aspects of the Samurai warrior&#8217;s empty-handed arsenal. Kempo (&#8220;the law of the fist&#8221 andJujitsu (&#8220;the gentle art&#8221 referred to the original synthesis of striking and grappling arts into one functional combat art. Technique was designed to be quick, effective and brutal, but  also included a variety of restraint and control options, and a profound core of zen buddhist values and meditation techniques.
> 
> ...



Yeah&#8230; look, I don't really know how to break this to you, but that's a complete load of garbage. It has no historical basis that it's trying to claim here whatsoever. There was never any such "samurai" art as "kempo jujitsu" (sic), old forms of unarmed (and, far more commonly, lightly armed) combative methods were called Jujutsu, Hade, Wa, Wajutsu, Yawara, Yawarate, Gi, Taijutsu, Judo (well before Kano's time), and so on. There was never any such "synthesis" of striking and grappling arts, as (in any pragmatic combative method) they weren't separated. You simply used striking when it was called for, and trapping when it was called for&#8230; with most Japanese systems being grappling-oriented due to the culture and contextual application of the art. The whole thing on having a "profound core of zen buddhist values" is a complete load as well&#8230; Buddhism did have an influence on Japanese martial arts, but it was dominantly in the sword systems, not the unarmed ones, and took place after the Sengoku Jidai that this is claiming to have come from.

The rest there is just as bad and off-base as these first sentences. Trust me&#8230; this is a complete load of garbage that they're peddling as "history".


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 1, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah&#8230; look, I don't really know how to break this to you, but that's a complete load of garbage. It has no historical basis that it's trying to claim here whatsoever. There was never any such "samurai" art as "kempo jujitsu" (sic), old forms of unarmed (and, far more commonly, lightly armed) combative methods were called Jujutsu, Hade, Wa, Wajutsu, Yawara, Yawarate, Gi, Taijutsu, Judo (well before Kano's time), and so on. There was never any such "synthesis" of striking and grappling arts, as (in any pragmatic combative method) they weren't separated. You simply used striking when it was called for, and trapping when it was called for&#8230; with most Japanese systems being grappling-oriented due to the culture and contextual application of the art. The whole thing on having a "profound core of zen buddhist values" is a complete load as well&#8230; Buddhism did have an influence on Japanese martial arts, but it was dominantly in the sword systems, not the unarmed ones, and took place after the Sengoku Jidai that this is claiming to have come from.
> 
> The rest there is just as bad and off-base as these first sentences. Trust me&#8230; this is a complete load of garbage that they're peddling as "history".



In all fairness, probably 90% of the martial arts "history" that is passed on by martial arts instructors is a complete load of garbage. This is true even when the instructors are highly qualified and well respected in their arts. Most martial artists are not historians. They pass on whatever their teacher told them or what they read in a book, even though a scholar looking at primary sources would conclude that the stories range from unsupported to blatantly false. 

It's good to offer correction when talking to people who are interested in getting the story right, but not worth getting worked up over.


----------



## Chris Parker (May 1, 2014)

Oh, I'm not saying anything about the system itself, it could be fantastic, but claiming to be an old, historically based art while having no connection other than fantasy&#8230; that, I don't let slide so much.

To put it another way, if someone came along as a great TKD teacher, but said that what he taught was learnt from the "street-lethal Machados in Brazil, and has been tested on the mean streets of Sao Paulo and Lima", claiming it was a form of BJJ that had adapted to be a kicking centric art, how would you take that? The TKD might be great, he might be a real solid fighter and great kicker, but none of his story is true, and is, in fact, demonstrably false. That's how that "history" of "Kempo Jujitsu" reads to me.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 1, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, I'm not saying anything about the system itself, it could be fantastic, but claiming to be an old, historically based art while having no connection other than fantasy&#8230; that, I don't let slide so much.
> 
> To put it another way, if someone came along as a great TKD teacher, but said that what he taught was learnt from the "street-lethal Machados in Brazil, and has been tested on the mean streets of Sao Paulo and Lima", claiming it was a form of BJJ that had adapted to be a kicking centric art, how would you take that? The TKD might be great, he might be a real solid fighter and great kicker, but none of his story is true, and is, in fact, demonstrably false. That's how that "history" of "Kempo Jujitsu" reads to me.



I'd find it amusing, but only different in the particulars from the misinformation that is widely spread in the TKD community already.

I've been told that TKD is a purely Korean art derived from a thousand year old tradition of Hwarang warriors. I've been told that the jumping kicks were used to knock mounted cavalry off their horses. I've been told that the Japanese karate was based on TKD. I've even been told that "karate is nothing but bastardized, Americanized Tae Kwon Do." (That is a direct quote from a TKD 3rd-degree black belt.)

Claiming that TKD was derived from BJJ would be no more inaccurate than the above stories, and it would at least be original.


----------



## Mr. President (May 1, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah&#8230; look, I don't really know how to break this to you, but that's a complete load of garbage.



Yeah, probably. I'm guessing he's not the only one, though.

How much is a year of study in your school? I'm guessing you don't have an uchi deshi program, so what's the closest thing you have to it?


----------



## Chris Parker (May 2, 2014)

Why? Honestly, why would the cost of a years worth of classes with me matter? Are you seriously suggesting you're willing to, or wanting to, relocate to a completely different country to train in a particular school of an art you don't really know anything about once a week for a year, then, what, go back to the US? If you were local to me, I'd send an answer privately (I'm not here to attract students, so I have no need to put my pricing structure in a post here), but really, there's no practical reality to any of this entire thread, let alone that last post.

I'm going to take this back to my earlier question, as it's the most important one, and you still haven't answered it yet. What are you wanting out of your martial arts experience? At the moment, it really seems as if you're attracted to an impractical fantasy, thinking that "intensive training"/uchi deshi programs etc are better than regular training&#8230; frankly, they're not. They're a specialisation of a training methodology, that's all. Thinking that you need to do that for a meaningful experience is a fantasy born out of movies. Thinking that getting "there" (wherever that is for you) faster is "better" is also a fantasy, as by racing through things, you often have to leave a fair bit out, or skip over it. Thinking that the idea is to become an instructor in order to "start making some money"&#8230; honestly, get a business degree if you want to "start making some money". You want to become an instructor quickly? Don't.


----------



## Mr. President (May 2, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> it really seems as if you're attracted to an impractical fantasy



You're assuming I have no practical reason for doing this, and you're basing that on the fact that I haven't told you any practical reason. According to that logic, if someone wants to do something, he will automatically share his motivation for it with other people, and should he not do that, then that man is "lost in a fantasy".

Word of advice - Lighten up. Your posts, as alluded to by another poster in this thread, reek of bitterness and anger. You always answer from a place of rejection, suspicion and veiled contempt. I don't know what did that to you, but it sure as hell wasn't me.


----------



## Chris Parker (May 2, 2014)

No, I post from a position of reality. Believe me, there's no bitterness or anger here, nor suspicion, rejection, or contempt, veiled or otherwise. I'm also not assuming anything, I'm making observations and asking questions to get a better idea of where you're coming from&#8230; which you are steadfastly avoiding answering, instead turning to ask about studying at my school (?)&#8230; for what? How did my school suddenly become in any way an option for you? What makes you think that you'd benefit from coming to my school? In other words...

What are you wanting out of this experience you're seeking?

There, that's the third time I've asked that&#8230; do you feel you could, I don't know&#8230; actually answer it now?


----------



## Mr. President (May 2, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> I'm also not assuming anything



Maybe it's me, but statements such as "it really seems as if you're attracted to an impractical fantasy" and "Thinking that you need to do that for a meaningful experience is a fantasy born out of movies" are assumptions. You assume that's what I'm thinking.

As to my reasons - I have a few practical ones and some that are more hopeful. I won't get into all of them because that's not why I asked what I did. Obviously, I would like to be more fit and more able to defend myself, but there are others.

And also, when someone asks you about the business you own or operate, the correct response usually isn't: "Why the hell are you asking? What does my business have to do with anything?" It comes off as defensive, angry and bitter. You'd be much better off just answering the question instead of trying to dissect my reasons for asking.


----------



## Chris Parker (May 2, 2014)

Mr. President said:


> Maybe it's me, but statements such as "it really seems as if you're attracted to an impractical fantasy" and "Thinking that you need to do that for a meaningful experience is a fantasy born out of movies" are assumptions. You assume that's what I'm thinking.




Okay, yeah, that's a misinterpretation. I'm typically rather particular in my language, so when I say "it really seems like&#8230;" while asking for some insight into your questions, it really does mean that I'm putting forth a possibility due to the lack of input from yourself&#8230; the second one is not an assumption, it's an observation based on your posts, your behaviour, your lack of answer, and understanding the way people's motivations and behavioural decisions are made. I'm not assuming what you're thinking, I'm responding to the information (or lack of it) that you're providing.




Mr. President said:


> As to my reasons - I have a few practical ones and some that are more hopeful. I won't get into all of them because that's not why I asked what I did. Obviously, I would like to be more fit and more able to defend myself, but there are others.




I'm not interested in your reasons for training in martial arts, I'm asking what you're wanting to get out of the particular systems you've picked&#8230; why have you picked them, what drew you to them, that kinda thing. Was it just the "intensive training/uchi deshi" idea? If so, what makes that attractive to you? Are you after weaponry skills, or just unarmed? Are you wanting a sporting/sparring methodology, or are you wanting to look at more of a 'here and now' applicability? Are you wanting to learn a historical system, or is that not important at all? Striking or grappling, or it doesn't matter? Ground work?

What are you looking for?

That's the question.




Mr. President said:


> And also, when someone asks you about the business you own or operate, the correct response usually isn't: "Why the hell are you asking? What does my business have to do with anything?" It comes off as defensive, angry and bitter. You'd be much better off just answering the question instead of trying to dissect my reasons for asking.



When it comes out as a random comment, with no real lead-in, from someone asking about specific set-ups halfway around the world from where I am, there's no point giving you the answer to the question you asked, as there's no reality to the question in the first place. My school doesn't suit the pattern you've shown, it's not a practical location for you, and you know nothing about what I teach, so you can't be attracted to that. In other words, it has nothing to do with what you're looking for.

I might point out, though, that my question wasn't so much "why the hell are you asking?", it was far more "can you give me a reason to believe that my school is genuinely an option for you?" Another question you've failed to answer, I might note.


----------



## Buka (May 4, 2014)

Pick Monterey.


----------

