# I like the direction



## Martial D (Sep 29, 2017)

What this guy said matches my experience. I'll just leave it here for discussion.
I like the direction WC seems to be evolving in.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

Some good points in there for many TMA about where some styles have to bend to reality. A lot of us start with some version of the upright posture for structure - it's a good idea to recognize the weakness of that (and other parts of any system) so we know when to use it and when not to.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 29, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So starting my posts with and using the words "Is this true" sounds like good advice and its something I am going to start doing. Aside from that I think using the words, "I heard," can be a good idea too. Is this true?


Yup. I just think you need to clarify what you mean when you create posts. It's tough to tell if it's something that you want feedback on, something you heard, or something you are trying to inform us of. Just knowing that can change the focus of the conversation to something more helpful.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Yup. I just think you need to clarify what you mean when you create posts. It's tough to tell if it's something that you want feedback on, something you heard, or something you are trying to inform us of. Just knowing that can change the focus of the conversation to something more helpful.


How the heck did this end up in this thread????


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## TMA17 (Sep 29, 2017)

I've been watching a lot of the videos from Sifu Mark Phillips from the LWCA.  He makes a lot of sense.

In situations like that, which seem to be common in many street fights I'm guessing your options are:

1. Keep trading punches with him and try to out box him by moving around/ducking/countering.
2. Tackle the guy and use ground game.
3. Bridge gap and smother hands and use elbows.

All 3 would work depending on your skill level in each.  A boxer would likely choose 1.  Wrestler/BJJ number 2. and a WC 3.

It would be risky to move in fast to close gap without getting nailed but that is the position I would take personally.

My .02


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## TMA17 (Sep 29, 2017)

#7 and #8 

Tales from the Kwoon: Tea Time Teachings with Sifu Mark Phillips Pt. 1


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## DanT (Sep 29, 2017)

I like mark philips as well, it's almost identical to the stuff and way I train.


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## drop bear (Sep 29, 2017)

nope.


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## drop bear (Sep 29, 2017)

Ok here is a guy taking on a bunch of dudes. What he is essentually doing is throwing straight punches down the pipe.






This creates a wall of damage that cannot be effectively countered by round punches and has to be adressed by cutting angles.

What does wing chun basically do? straight punches down the pipe.

Trying to force forwards and throw elbows will mostly. (look there is a way of doing it but you have to be good at it) result in you just eating shots.

The issue you are going to have is that chun punches are not as long or as strong as a straight left right. So unless you start from in range you will give up free hits to the other guy. 

You can mess around with this a bit by baiting the guy in or leading with your right. But he will have the advantage of range if his punch is longer.


Otherwise block and then punch off the same side against a hook. Just go inside their arm.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> How the heck did this end up in this thread????


That is a very good question. I have no clue.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Ok here is a guy taking on a bunch of dudes. What he is essentually doing is throwing straight punches down the pipe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know, when I watched the video, I somehow saw it wrong. I didn't pick up (though he's pretty clear) that he's saying to move into elbow range, moving past punching range at a point where a straight punch is plenty effective. I'd prefer to move in, but that's because I want to grapple (round punches make a fine opening for a shoulder clinch that leads to stuff like leg sweep). So, I like the range he's moving to, but for another reason. If I were working strikes only, I'd rather control distance (as much as I can) and work the straight punch.


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## KPM (Sep 30, 2017)

I think the keypoint in the initial video of Mark Phillips is that in a real fight people are going to  be throwing fast combinations of punches....whether it is nice and tight like a good boxer, or "swinging for the fences" like a street brawler.  Multiple fast punches are hard to deal with.  Often "covering up" and protecting your head is the key to survival.  This is a method from western boxing that Mark is showing, and he uses it to bridge the gap into elbow range to gain control.  Throwing straight shots down the middle may very well land, but it doesn't necessary keep his wide hard swinging blow from landing as well!  Just like doing a Tan Da won't keep his other punch that is already on its way from landing!

If you watch Mark move, he often looks more like a boxer than a classic Wing Chun guy as far as his body mechanics....chin down, shoulders rolled a bit forward, evasive upper body movements, shoulders swinging somewhat with strikes, etc.  As far as the title of this thread..."I like the direction".....I do to!  Even though Mark Phillips may not say it, I've pointed out that he is doing things in the direction of a "Wing Chun Boxing."


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## KPM (Sep 30, 2017)

And in line with some of what Mark Phillips was saying:


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## geezer (Sep 30, 2017)

We use a lot of the same stuff (FMA has _corrupted_ my WC ). In most situations, I prefer the position you call the _high cover over_ the _front cover, _which I've been calling the _Dracula Guard...





..._because it leaves your ribs exposed. A heavy cape may help in that regard. In the picture Dracula is using it against a cross. Or maybe a _crucifix?_ I digress...

Some people may complain that moving your wu-sau across to reinforce the elbow in the _high guard _opens the centerline. But I don't see it that way, since it puts your _bridge_ right on center, and also keeps the fingers of your wu-sau hand from getting knocked back into your eyes. It also puts you into a really good position to follow up with either hand ...with WC or FMA techniques that boxers can't or don't use ...like a downward hammer fist, a fak-sau, biu sau, etc., and the of course that neck-grab from the dummy set that you demonstrated.

Some of my VT brothers say that I wouldn't have to resort to this crap if my VT was a lot better.

...They may be right. But at 62 I'm not getting a lot better. So I'll just get a little more devious!


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## drop bear (Sep 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You know, when I watched the video, I somehow saw it wrong. I didn't pick up (though he's pretty clear) that he's saying to move into elbow range, moving past punching range at a point where a straight punch is plenty effective. I'd prefer to move in, but that's because I want to grapple (round punches make a fine opening for a shoulder clinch that leads to stuff like leg sweep). So, I like the range he's moving to, but for another reason. If I were working strikes only, I'd rather control distance (as much as I can) and work the straight punch.



He is doing everything that he said was wrong, Adressing each punch individually, placing yourself at positional risk, relying on shots to do more damage that the may do. And suggesting it is solved through using elbows.

I have eaten elbows. They will carve you up. But you can weather the damage if they don't tag the button.

And look trading in the meat grinder while copping elbows is a crap way to fight but it is also crap for the other guy.






You want to make it all crap for the other guy and easy for yourself.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You want to make it all crap for the other guy and easy for yourself.


Probably the most succinct explanation of the strategy of self-defense (and hard competition fighting at the same time!) I've ever seen.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> He is doing everything that he said was wrong, Adressing each punch individually, placing yourself at positional risk, relying on shots to do more damage that the may do. And suggesting it is solved through using elbows.
> 
> I have eaten elbows. They will carve you up. But you can weather the damage if they don't tag the button.
> 
> ...


Another note on this. I think there's something that happens in TMA (and maybe in boxing, etc. early on, but I don't know those) because of how the information is "stored" for the art. I'll use NGA as an example, but I think it applies to WC (so pertinent to this thread).

We have techniques commonly taught as responses to a "double punch" (right hand, then left - usually initially worked as two roundhouse punches). And for the first level or two of working with the technique, that's a fine way to look at it. I had a brown belt from another school ask me a few weeks ago how I deal with double punches, because he has trouble tracking them both. We were interrupted by a change to another drill before I could answer. In one of the drills, someone came at me with a double punch. I treated it as the flurry of punches it's actually meant to simulate. In that case, I took a full MMA-style high guard (both hands) and got inside to his shoulders to do a takedown. After the drill, I told the brown belt, "That's how those techniques actually work. Quit trying to handle each punch, and deal with the person."

I think often the transition is missed from the set scenario, where your partner lets you do the movements for the technique (like when you first learn a single-leg, and the guy stands there and lets you execute it) to what the initial "training attack" is actually allowing us to practice. In the technique I used, the entry is somewhat different from the initial training exercise (which eliminates the need for the high guard for simplicity), but everything else is much the same (though less "clean") as the initial training exercise.


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## drop bear (Sep 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Another note on this. I think there's something that happens in TMA (and maybe in boxing, etc. early on, but I don't know those) because of how the information is "stored" for the art. I'll use NGA as an example, but I think it applies to WC (so pertinent to this thread).
> 
> We have techniques commonly taught as responses to a "double punch" (right hand, then left - usually initially worked as two roundhouse punches). And for the first level or two of working with the technique, that's a fine way to look at it. I had a brown belt from another school ask me a few weeks ago how I deal with double punches, because he has trouble tracking them both. We were interrupted by a change to another drill before I could answer. In one of the drills, someone came at me with a double punch. I treated it as the flurry of punches it's actually meant to simulate. In that case, I took a full MMA-style high guard (both hands) and got inside to his shoulders to do a takedown. After the drill, I told the brown belt, "That's how those techniques actually work. Quit trying to handle each punch, and deal with the person."
> 
> I think often the transition is missed from the set scenario, where your partner lets you do the movements for the technique (like when you first learn a single-leg, and the guy stands there and lets you execute it) to what the initial "training attack" is actually allowing us to practice. In the technique I used, the entry is somewhat different from the initial training exercise (which eliminates the need for the high guard for simplicity), but everything else is much the same (though less "clean") as the initial training exercise.



It is because it is doable in training up to a pretty high pace. I can even thow one off shots flat knacker and you could probably deal with them if you had a fair idea what I was going to throw.

Then you look at a video of a fight. and generally from the side and a few feet away. Those punches seem managable.

So you come to the conclusion that the method works.

But if someone is really trying to take your head off with a bucket of punches. The methods that worked at half speed dont really work at full speed.

This is why people also dont just take the guy down when they do some sort of spinning head kick.

Or why if someone has good duck and weave you have fired three or four shots in to mid air before you realise you have to stop and change tactics.

You are relying a lot more on creating a position. Having just good structural defence and fighting in a manner that gives inherent advantages.

Like as I mentioned just firing straight shots down the pipe. Or moving to the blind side so that their rear hand has to take more time to hit you. Or head off line when you kick so that his return punches dont hit you. Even changing levels for a takedown workes on this theory.


Bear in mind professional boxers can't move their elbow from their ribs to a glove protecting their head in time to stop a combination everybody knows is coming.


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## drop bear (Sep 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Probably the most succinct explanation of the strategy of self-defense (and hard competition fighting at the same time!) I've ever seen.



Meh. Leonidas said it better.


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## KPM (Oct 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


>




Good video!   Leverage from the shoulder, throwing punches from where the opponent can't see, throwing fast combinations....all things that Wing Chun does NOT do, but that a "Wing Chun Boxing" would do!


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## TMA17 (Oct 1, 2017)

Head movement in WC.  I would think that combining boxing, whether it be western/Thai/Sanda in combination with WC, would be beneficial.  Or make WC work in the way you need it to work and not worry so much about how it looks.


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## Danny T (Oct 1, 2017)

Being able to adapt to different fighting styles is an important attribute to develop. Knowing when to adapt is just as important.


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## TMA17 (Oct 1, 2017)

"In the words of Bruce Lee, “style is a crystallization.”  The moment you dictate a specific way that a technique should be practiced, you also risk creating shortcomings in such techniques that are overlooked at the time."


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 1, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> "In the words of Bruce Lee, “style is a crystallization.”  The moment you dictate a specific way that a technique should be practiced, you also risk creating shortcomings in such techniques that are overlooked at the time."


You posted that as a response to another thread. Is it an answer to everything?


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## TMA17 (Oct 1, 2017)

No that was by accident.


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## KPM (Oct 1, 2017)

TMA17 said:


>




Great example of "Wing Chun Boxing."    Evasive head movement with a cuff, low kick, and shovel hooks to the body.


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## drop bear (Oct 1, 2017)

KPM said:


> Great example of "Wing Chun Boxing."    Evasive head movement with a cuff, low kick, and shovel hooks to the body.



But again head movement is not always reactionary.


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## DanT (Oct 1, 2017)

I always found it strange how most Wing Chun people just stand still with their head and chin raised up. It's not the way that I was taught. I was taught plenty of head movement once I got the basics down. I'm happy others are adding it in.


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## Martial D (Oct 1, 2017)

Awareness (due to the presence of digital media)is at an all time high, and mystical woowoo is being rooted out as a result.  For TMA it is evolve or die.

As a result, we are seeing both happen.  IMO this is a good thing.


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## drop bear (Oct 1, 2017)

DanT said:


> I always found it strange how most Wing Chun people just stand still with their head and chin raised up. It's not the way that I was taught. I was taught plenty of head movement once I got the basics down. I'm happy others are adding it in.



It is easier structurally to patty cake with your head upright and centered. Like punching, it is easier to punch with your fists about shoulder level.

So people gravitate to the success they get from the feedback they get. 

I was thinking of a metaphor for this the other day as it is quite common.

So if I put a plank a foot off the ground and said the best method to cross it is to butt scoot across. It just wouldn't make sense as you can walk across a lot easier.

Same plank a hundred feet off the ground and butt scooting may look like a more sensible option.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> It is easier structurally to patty cake with your head upright and centered. Like punching, it is easier to punch with your fists about shoulder level.
> 
> So people gravitate to the success they get from the feedback they get.
> 
> ...


I like that analogy, DB. I'm stealing it, and nobody will ever hear from me that it's not mine.


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