# Asking To Test



## PhotonGuy (Feb 24, 2019)

There has been talk here before, that when it comes to testing for rank, asking your instructor "can I test?" has been frowned upon as being disrespectful. 

So how about this, what if it's taking you longer to test than you expected?


----------



## CDR_Glock (Feb 24, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> There has been talk here before, that when it comes to testing for rank, asking your instructor "can I test?" has been frowned upon as being disrespectful.
> 
> So how about this, what if it's taking you longer to test than you expected?



You can ask how your progress is coming along. Is there anything that you can work on?  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 24, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> There has been talk here before, that when it comes to testing for rank, asking your instructor "can I test?" has been frowned upon as being disrespectful.
> 
> So how about this, what if it's taking you longer to test than you expected?


Are we talking about a Dan testing or a color belt testing? Usually there is a timeline or curriculum set in place for both but I do feel there is more variability in Dan testing's. If a person has had to start and stop for whatever reason that would explain a lot. I just recently tested and my last test was in 1995. My delays were a combination of life going in other directions and chronic injuries from an accident. I never fully stopped and did a lot behind the scenes but did not really get back into full swing until about three years ago. 
I do feel asking about a color belt test is a bit of a juvenile move. They come around fairly often. If you are already a black belt hopefully you have more of a relationship with your instructor, or (and this is probably a better move)some other higher ranking students within you organization you can bounce it off of first. Their opinion would be more valuable since you have to deal with them face to face.


----------



## Orion Nebula (Feb 24, 2019)

I would think it depends on your instructor and how you phrase it. At my previous school, it would have definitely been frowned upon for me to say "can I test this next round?" However, it would not have been bad to say something along the lines of "do you think I'll be ready for the next test?" 

At my current school, tests are done with the regional Shotokan organization rather than at the school. From what I've seen so far, it's ok to ask if you can/should take the test (at least for lower belts). My understanding is that they will never actually tell you no, but they will let you know if they don't think you are ready and shouldn't waste your money on fees for a test you will likely fail.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 24, 2019)

As before, I think this will vary by instructor. Some (and it may be cultural, a hold-over from the origins of the art, or just some wonky idea the instructor has) won't appreciate any questions. I don't really get that concept, at all. It seems a reasonable question, and I'd be happy to answer it for any of my students.


----------



## skribs (Feb 25, 2019)

At my school, we do things differently depending on belt and age.


Kids white and yellow belts are told "test notifications are coming" and then a week later "come to my office."
Kids purple and orange belts are told the same thing, but can ask if they're ready.  If they ask, we'll check for them before we allow them to test.
Kids in the green and blue belt are told the same thing, but can ask if they're ready.  If they ask, we will go through the test items and ask them if they're confident with them.
Kids in the red belt are asked if they're ready.
Kids in the black belt are expected to come and ask for a belt.
Adults, on the other hand, are generally held responsible for knowing what they know and asking to test.  There are a few that we need to push into testing because they're more than ready, and need to move up.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> At my school, we do things differently depending on belt and age.
> 
> 
> Kids white and yellow belts are told "test notifications are coming" and then a week later "come to my office."
> ...


I'm thinking back on how we handled it with kids at my old school (where I was a student, and later an instructor). What you say about adults is very much the same approach we had (and philosophically my approach now, though I often surprise a student with a test...sometimes I even tell them it's a test). With kids, I think we mostly told them it was time to test, doing less "telling" as they got older.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> As before, I think this will vary by instructor. Some (and it may be cultural, a hold-over from the origins of the art, or just some wonky idea the instructor has) won't appreciate any questions. I don't really get that concept, at all. It seems a reasonable question, and I'd be happy to answer it for any of my students.



I could ask any of the sifus I trained with to test anytime I wanted....fo course the response would have been..."Tested in what" 
No belts, or ranks, to test for in Traditional CMA


----------



## Danny T (Feb 25, 2019)

Really depends on what testing is for in your school and the testing culture doesn't it?
Some organizations place the responsibility of testing and when to test on the student who would then make a request to be tested which would not be deemed disrespectful.
Some require students to test under a different tester than the instructor some don't.
Some require the student to be invited to test which is something I do. However, I already know the student is ready and is going to pass because they have already shown to me in training, drilling, sparring, and helping others they know the material, can be functional with it and can help others learn it. Such testing is not for me but affirmation for the student.
If one were to ask about testing I don't take it as disrespect but interest in growth. If they are not ready I'll tell them I don't feel you are ready but if they truly feel they are I'll test them right now. If they pass great, if not they have to apologize to everyone else for not being ready and for wasting everyone's time.


----------



## JR 137 (Feb 25, 2019)

IMO the policy of not asking to test is more about the CI avoiding fiascos than anything else. It avoids people trying to test when they haven’t met minimum times in grade, when they’re not ready, etc. It also avoids the bickering of “I’m ready” “No you’re not.” It keeps the CI from being hounded. Basically, it keeps the inmates from running the asylum.

From a respect point of view, it keeps people from thinking and/or saying they know rank standards better than the CI.

We have a policy where we don’t ask to promote; the CI invites you to test when he feels you’re ready. 

Everyone is different and one way of bringing it up isn’t going to be viewed the same way for every CI. If I strongly felt I was ready to test but wasn’t invited, I would ask my CI what I needed to do to be ready. Better yet, what do I need to work on to get better.


----------



## skribs (Feb 25, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> IMO the policy of not asking to test is more about the CI avoiding fiascos than anything else. It avoids people trying to test when they haven’t met minimum times in grade, when they’re not ready, etc. It also avoids the bickering of “I’m ready” “No you’re not.” It keeps the CI from being hounded. Basically, it keeps the inmates from running the asylum.
> 
> From a respect point of view, it keeps people from thinking and/or saying they know rank standards better than the CI.
> 
> ...



We have a window where people ask to test.  

We have 150-200 students, so we take a week off of classes every other month to do testing week.  Each testing week we have about 60-80 students test.

So while we are hounded, we're hounded at specific times.


----------



## JR 137 (Feb 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> We have a window where people ask to test.
> 
> We have 150-200 students, so we take a week off of classes every other month to do testing week.  Each testing week we have about 60-80 students test.
> 
> So while we are hounded, we're hounded at specific times.


Every school/CI does what works for them. There’s no right or wrong way to handle this IMO. If I ran a school I’d probably have the don’t ask to promote policy, but that’s most likely how it’s always been in both organizations I’ve been in.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 25, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Every school/CI does what works for them. There’s no right or wrong way to handle this IMO. If I ran a school I’d probably have the don’t ask to promote policy, but that’s most likely how it’s always been in both organizations I’ve been in.



And I'm pretty much the opposite, for mostly the same reason - I've always had to ask to set up a testing date, so I expect the same of my students, for the most part.


----------



## WaterGal (Feb 25, 2019)

I know different people have different options & traditions, but I think as long as the student isn't hounding the instructor about it, it's fine. We eliminated the whole issue by going to a stripe system. Students get a little tape stripe on their belt for demonstrating different aspects of the curriculum in class (forms, sparring, kicks, etc). If they have all their stripes, they can test. If they don't, they can't. We still get kids sometimes asking, but we just remind them - "do you have your stripes?" and they go yes, or no, and if they don't.... "okay, which ones are you missing? Make sure you keep working on that".


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 25, 2019)

Yet another one of those areas where I am confused why there is even an issue.
Students sometimes ask if they're ready to test. We tell them if we think they are or are not, and if not we tell them what they need to work on to get ready.
Students sometimes don't ask. When we think they're ready, we tell them we think they're ready and what they should work on to get more ready.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> There has been talk here before, that when it comes to testing for rank, asking your instructor "can I test?" has been frowned upon as being disrespectful.
> 
> So how about this, what if it's taking you longer to test than you expected?


To me it depends on how you ask. For a mock situation: It generally takes someone 6 months to go from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu. It's been 7 months and you haven't heard anything.

If you mention it seems to be taking longer, and you want to know what you're lacking so you can work on it, IMO that's perfectly fine.

If you mention it seems to be taking longer, and you feel you should test, that could sound like you are informing the teacher that you know more than him/her about when someone needs to test.

It's all in the presentation.


----------



## JR 137 (Feb 26, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> To me it depends on how you ask. For a mock situation: It generally takes someone 6 months to go from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu. It's been 7 months and you haven't heard anything.
> 
> If you mention it seems to be taking longer, and you want to know what you're lacking so you can work on it, IMO that's perfectly fine.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly. Where there’s a don’t ask to test policy, if you say you should be testing then you’re basically telling your teacher you know the standards better than he does. And if that’s the case, why are you training there to begin with?


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 1, 2019)

I don't get the issue with asking to test, if I'm paying to train and I want to advance I have every right to ask it. If I am testing I want to know to step up my training and if I'm not I'll want to know so I can train harder so I can next time. I've asked numerous times if I'm testing. Not because I was that bothered but simply I felt I should no. The conversation usually went like this.


"Hey am I testing this time round?"

Either

"Yeah your testing"

"Sweet cheers."

Or

"No not this time sorry."

"Okay no worries"


That's it it's a simple question with a simple answer no big deal


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 1, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> I don't get the issue with asking to test, if I'm paying to train and I want to advance I have every right to ask it. If I am testing I want to know to step up my training and if I'm not I'll want to know so I can train harder so I can next time. I've asked numerous times if I'm testing. Not because I was that bothered but simply I felt I should no. The conversation usually went like this.
> 
> 
> "Hey am I testing this time round?"
> ...


For many people it’s not a simple “okay no worries.” If everyone acted like a normal human being, there’d be a lot less eggshells to walk on.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 1, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> For many people it’s not a simple “okay no worries.” If everyone acted like a normal human being, there’d be a lot less eggshells to walk on.


You beat me to it this time. Gonna second what @JR 137 said. Unfortunately, people don't always stop the convo there.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Are we talking about a Dan testing or a color belt testing? Usually there is a timeline or curriculum set in place for both but I do feel there is more variability in Dan testing's. If a person has had to start and stop for whatever reason that would explain a lot. I just recently tested and my last test was in 1995. My delays were a combination of life going in other directions and chronic injuries from an accident. I never fully stopped and did a lot behind the scenes but did not really get back into full swing until about three years ago.
> I do feel asking about a color belt test is a bit of a juvenile move. They come around fairly often. If you are already a black belt hopefully you have more of a relationship with your instructor, or (and this is probably a better move)some other higher ranking students within you organization you can bounce it off of first. Their opinion would be more valuable since you have to deal with them face to face.


Im talking about testing for the color belts up to and including first Dan but not so much about testing for higher dan ranks such as 2nd dan, 3rd dan, ect. 
Some schools do have a timeline or curriculum but not all. As you point out promotions for color belts do come relatively often although there are some styles where that is the exception such as BJJ where it takes an average of two years to get your next color belt. But if color belt promotions do come often than that would be an even stronger case of it taking longer than what you expect if it is taking longer than you expect.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> As before, I think this will vary by instructor. Some (and it may be cultural, a hold-over from the origins of the art, or just some wonky idea the instructor has) won't appreciate any questions.


Sounds like a military instructor much like the fictional John Kreese.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 4, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> I could ask any of the sifus I trained with to test anytime I wanted....fo course the response would have been..."Tested in what"
> No belts, or ranks, to test for in Traditional CMA


Well since your school doesn't have tests from what you describe, "can I test?" would not be a valid question.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 4, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> IMO the policy of not asking to test is more about the CI avoiding fiascos than anything else. It avoids people trying to test when they haven’t met minimum times in grade, when they’re not ready, etc. It also avoids the bickering of “I’m ready” “No you’re not.” It keeps the CI from being hounded. Basically, it keeps the inmates from running the asylum.
> 
> From a respect point of view, it keeps people from thinking and/or saying they know rank standards better than the CI.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't get into a "Im ready," "no you're not," argument with an instructor, if the instructor says Im not ready then Im not ready since he would know better than I would and that's what makes him the instructor and me the student. However, if he does say Im not ready I might want to ask why Im not ready and what I need to work on so I can hopefully be ready the next time around.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 4, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Every school/CI does what works for them. There’s no right or wrong way to handle this IMO. If I ran a school I’d probably have the don’t ask to promote policy, but that’s most likely how it’s always been in both organizations I’ve been in.


I would never ask to promote but that's not the same as asking to test. Asking to test is asking to try to promote, but you have to do well enough in the test in order to promote.
Asking to promote would be asking to bypass the test and just automatically promote, I would never ask to do that.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 4, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Students sometimes ask if they're ready to test. We tell them if we think they are or are not, and if not we tell them what they need to work on to get ready.


Basically that's what Im talking about, and why asking such stuff would be frowned upon, if it ever is frowned upon.
But from what I recall your school doesn't have tests, you have demonstrations.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 4, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> To me it depends on how you ask. For a mock situation: It generally takes someone 6 months to go from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu. It's been 7 months and you haven't heard anything.
> 
> If you mention it seems to be taking longer, and you want to know what you're lacking so you can work on it, IMO that's perfectly fine.
> 
> ...


Im talking about asking the former.


----------



## skribs (Mar 4, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Basically that's what Im talking about, and why asking such stuff would be frowned upon, if it ever is frowned upon.
> But from what I recall your school doesn't have tests, you have demonstrations.



Even in a school which does tests solely based on invitation, you can ask "am I ready?"  At our school, some of our classes have 25+ students in them, and we try to check them all, but often can't.  Sometimes they'll come up to us and ask "am I ready to test?" at which point we can say "I'll check next class".


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 4, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> I don't get the issue with asking to test, if I'm paying to train and I want to advance I have every right to ask it. If I am testing I want to know to step up my training and if I'm not I'll want to know so I can train harder so I can next time. I've asked numerous times if I'm testing. Not because I was that bothered but simply I felt I should no. The conversation usually went like this.
> 
> 
> "Hey am I testing this time round?"
> ...



How about this, if your instructor says,

"No not this time sorry."

You could respond by saying,

"Alright so what do I need to work on so that hopefully I can test the next time?"


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 4, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> I wouldn't get into a "Im ready," "no you're not," argument with an instructor, if the instructor says Im not ready then Im not ready since he would know better than I would and that's what makes him the instructor and me the student. However, if he does say Im not ready I might want to ask why Im not ready and what I need to work on so I can hopefully be ready the next time around.


It’s all in the delivery. Body language, tone of voice, etc. Two people can say the same thing verbatim and get quite different reactions, and deservedly so. Great example was Howard Stern read a transcript from Oprah Winfrey. Stern was fined heavily by the FCC, Winfrey wasn’t.



PhotonGuy said:


> I would never ask to promote but that's not the same as asking to test. Asking to test is asking to try to promote, but you have to do well enough in the test in order to promote.
> Asking to promote would be asking to bypass the test and just automatically promote, I would never ask to do that.


I use the two words interchangeably. I shouldn’t, but I do. I agree there’s a difference, but I wouldn’t ask for either one. I could see a vindictive teacher saying you can test against his recommendation, then making the test pretty painful and practically impossible without outright doing so.


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Mar 6, 2019)

Never ask an instructor can i test only the instructors tell ya when to test i took 3rd brown 2015 and it took me 4 years to memorized 24 technique its hard but im getting it


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 6, 2019)

I will give students the testing requirement on a piece paper during day 1. When they think they are ready, they can ask for testing anytime they want to.


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 7, 2019)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Never ask an instructor can i test only the instructors tell ya when to test i took 3rd brown 2015 and it took me 4 years to memorized 24 technique its hard but im getting it


What nonsense I'm paying to be there so I'll ask if I'm testing because I have a right to. My grandad used to do karate and for some reason the instructor didn't want him to grade even though all the other instructors thought he was ready. So he asked the head instructor and asked if he could have a chance to show he was ready and guess what the instructor watched and agreed he was ready and apologised for not giving him a fair chance at first. People need to stop treating an instructor like a god they're human beings so I will talk to any instructor like one and if an instructors being a jerk I'll call him out on it


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 7, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> What nonsense I'm paying to be there so I'll ask if I'm testing because I have a right to. My grandad used to do karate and for some reason the instructor didn't want him to grade even though all the other instructors thought he was ready. So he asked the head instructor and asked if he could have a chance to show he was ready and guess what the instructor watched and agreed he was ready and apologised for not giving him a fair chance at first. People need to stop treating an instructor like a god they're human beings so I will talk to any instructor like one and if an instructors being a jerk I'll call him out on it


Good points, but on the other side...

If a teacher says up front not to ask to test, you don’t do it. His house, his rules. If it’s a rule you don’t agree with, go elsewhere. Both teachers I’ve had had the don’t ask rule. It was told to me by both of them right up front before I joined. And there’s an article on a bulletin board at my current dojo stating not to do it and why. If that was too much for me to handle, I wouldn’t have joined. I’m not above the rules nor do I want them changed just for me.

Every dojo has their policy. Know it (along with any other important ones) before you join.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Mar 8, 2019)

Our dojo also has a 'no ask policy' but it doesn't stop people from asking anyways .  If you are ready, you will be asked to grade.   If you do not know what you need to get ready, that is a more appropriate question to ask.  In the end, you need to demonstrate that you have improved your technique and learned more from your last grading.  If you are in the Dan ranks, you should not only continue your training but trying a hand at instructing and/or competing.  

Shodan is just the beginning as they say and the path you choose to embark can have many roads but only you can set your direction. The success of your decision should be apparent in the students you train or the competitions you have won because the only way you will get better is to put in the time on the tatami.   If you put in this time and energy and the results are there for everyone to see, why wouldn't you be asked to grade ?   Your instructor graded you to the point you are currently at now, why wouldn't he ask you to grade again if he didn't feel you were ready for the next level ?


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 8, 2019)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Our dojo also has a 'no ask policy' but it doesn't stop people from asking anyways .  If you are ready, you will be asked to grade.   If you do not know what you need to get ready, that is a more appropriate question to ask.  In the end, you need to demonstrate that you have improved your technique and learned more from your last grading.  If you are in the Dan ranks, you should not only continue your training but trying a hand at instructing and/or competing.
> 
> Shodan is just the beginning as they say and the path you choose to embark can have many roads but only you can set your direction. The success of your decision should be apparent in the students you train or the competitions you have won because the only way you will get better is to put in the time on the tatami.   If you put in this time and energy and the results are there for everyone to see, why wouldn't you be asked to grade ?   Your instructor graded you to the point you are currently at now, why wouldn't he ask you to grade again if he didn't feel you were ready for the next level ?


Kyokushin has specific competition requirements for specific grades. Lower level tournaments, mid-level and upper level depending on grade.

Those requirements are typically waived for age, disability, and/or areas where there’s no reasonable access to competition.

Do you have those requirements? They’re typically not enforced or well known of in North America. Places like Japan, Europe and parts of Asia like Russia are pretty big on that rule. The rule doesn’t state you have to be successful, simply that you competed at whatever level is appropriate for that rank.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Mar 8, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Kyokushin has specific competition requirements for specific grades. Lower level tournaments, mid-level and upper level depending on grade.
> 
> Those requirements are typically waived for age, disability, and/or areas where there’s no reasonable access to competition.
> 
> Do you have those requirements? They’re typically not enforced or well known of in North America. Places like Japan, Europe and parts of Asia like Russia are pretty big on that rule. The rule doesn’t state you have to be successful, simply that you competed at whatever level is appropriate for that rank.


It's not so much as a rule but a guideline.   There are a few CI in our area that feel that one should not grade to Sandan if they haven't competed in knockdown (at any level).   The reason being, how can you teach a knockdown style of karate if you haven't put your training (and wellbeing  ) on the line.  Success at competition doesn't necessarily mean to win a tournament.  It could very well mean just to compete and survive .   The Kyokushin community is very well connected so if you have competed internationally, you will most likely be known to others that have competed at that level.  If you have competed at a regional level or have never competed before, that will also be known as soon as you step on the tatami to train .


----------



## donald1 (Mar 8, 2019)

Personally I don't think it's necessarily disrespectful on its own. When a student asks that question the instructor will likely respond by telling them what they are doing wrong. It becomes problematic when the student doesn't fix their mistakes yet continues to ask time and time again.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 8, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Good points, but on the other side...
> 
> If a teacher says up front not to ask to test, you don’t do it. His house, his rules. If it’s a rule you don’t agree with, go elsewhere. Both teachers I’ve had had the don’t ask rule. It was told to me by both of them right up front before I joined. And there’s an article on a bulletin board at my current dojo stating not to do it and why. If that was too much for me to handle, I wouldn’t have joined. I’m not above the rules nor do I want them changed just for me.
> 
> Every dojo has their policy. Know it (along with any other important ones) before you join.


Pretty much just this. If the rule's a problem, you're training in the wrong place, for you.


----------



## skribs (Mar 8, 2019)

donald1 said:


> Personally I don't think it's necessarily disrespectful on its own. When a student asks that question the instructor will likely respond by telling them what they are doing wrong. It becomes problematic when the student doesn't fix their mistakes yet continues to ask time and time again.



Reminds me of working in IT.
*I need an account created for my new hire.*
_Okay, submit Form 1234 and I'll get it done._
*I'll do that. 
(The next day) My new hire still doesn't have the account.*
_I'm sorry, I didn't see Form 1234 come in.  I'll check again...yeah, I don't have it yet._
*Oh, that's right.  I'll get it done.
(A week later) How come my new hire still doesn't have their account?*
_Have you submitted Form 1234 yet?_
*No.  Do I have to submit that form?*
_Yes._
*Ok.
*
(A week later, from my boss) So-and-so says you won't create an account for her new hire and you won't tell her why.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 8, 2019)

Yokozuna514 said:


> It's not so much as a rule but a guideline.   There are a few CI in our area that feel that one should not grade to Sandan if they haven't competed in knockdown (at any level).   The reason being, how can you teach a knockdown style of karate if you haven't put your training (and wellbeing  ) on the line.  Success at competition doesn't necessarily mean to win a tournament.  It could very well mean just to compete and survive .   The Kyokushin community is very well connected so if you have competed internationally, you will most likely be known to others that have competed at that level.  If you have competed at a regional level or have never competed before, that will also be known as soon as you step on the tatami to train .


Very good points. By success, I meant that the syllabi don’t say anything about winning; simply that the person competed.

But then again, to compete at a national or international level, you’ve typically got to win at lower levels to qualify.

I really like the theory behind it, or better yet the spirit of it. It gets people out of their comfort zones. It forces people to face their insecurities. It keeps people honest by making them spar against people outside their immediate circle. It shows who’s teaching what. 

The downside is not everyone should be made to compete in order to be eligible to promote.

But I like it as a rule that can be waived under the right circumstances better than a guideline. People come up with reasons to not follow guidelines; rules get adhered to far often than guidelines. Maybe that’s a matter of semantics though.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> Reminds me of working in IT.
> *I need an account created for my new hire.*
> _Okay, submit Form 1234 and I'll get it done._
> *I'll do that.
> ...


This is why emails are so helpful. Even if it's an in person conversation, send an email referencing the convo, and reminding them what they need to do. It sucks you have to send an email to cyoa from others stupidity though


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Mar 8, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Very good points. By success, I meant that the syllabi don’t say anything about winning; simply that the person competed.
> 
> But then again, to compete at a national or international level, you’ve typically got to win at lower levels to qualify.
> 
> ...


Yes, typically to compete at the national and international level it is highly recommended that you begin at the local and regional level first.  There are some instances in the past where countries have put in fighters in international tournaments but it is pretty clear that they do not belong about 10 seconds after you hear the work 'hajime' .   

Putting yourself in any contest such as knockdown will certainly take you out of your comfort zone.  You generally have no idea who your opponent is and how much they have trained.  Even in weight tournaments, the belt is of little help to determine the skills or experience of your opponent so your training quickly gets tested for efficacy.  That is the point of knockdown.  To learn the truth about oneself.   Are you as good as you believe.  Have you put in enough time to learn what you need to learn against an opponent whose main goal is to knock you out or at the very least incapacitate you for at least 3 seconds.  

I can understand how you would feel it is limiting to make everyone compete to be promoted within the system but the flip side of the argument is that if you want to progress in this system which that includes knockdown, shouldn't you know what it feels like to step onto the tatami yourself and be in that exact situation ?   How can you teach something you only know the theory or more patently how can you understand the limits of your students when you do not know your own limits ?

Call it a rule or a guideline, I believe we are talking about the same thing.  Integrity is what you do when no one is looking and the truth of your training will always come out on the tatami.


----------



## skribs (Mar 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> This is why emails are so helpful. Even if it's an in person conversation, send an email referencing the convo, and reminding them what they need to do. It sucks you have to send an email to cyoa from others stupidity though



This was in email.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 8, 2019)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Yes, typically to compete at the national and international level it is highly recommended that you begin at the local and regional level first.  There are some instances in the past where countries have put in fighters in international tournaments but it is pretty clear that they do not belong about 10 seconds after you hear the work 'hajime' .
> 
> Putting yourself in any contest such as knockdown will certainly take you out of your comfort zone.  You generally have no idea who your opponent is and how much they have trained.  Even in weight tournaments, the belt is of little help to determine the skills or experience of your opponent so your training quickly gets tested for efficacy.  That is the point of knockdown.  To learn the truth about oneself.   Are you as good as you believe.  Have you put in enough time to learn what you need to learn against an opponent whose main goal is to knock you out or at the very least incapacitate you for at least 3 seconds.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with what you’re saying. But there are and should be exceptions to every rule.

For example let’s say you’ve got a nidan who’s fulfilled all his requirements for that grade, then gets injured permanently but can still train at an acceptable level. Training is fine but knockdown competition is too risky. Do you never promote that person ever again simply because he didn’t compete at a level sandan requires? Or you’ve got a guy like my father who’s a blue collar guy (mechanic) and can definitely handle himself and decides to take up Kyokushin today at 70 years old (it’s still hard to believe he turned 70 a few months ago). Does he really need to compete against 20 somethings just to be eligible to promote? Knowing my father and Kyokushin, he’d be fine to train, but he wouldn’t compete. He’d simply say here’s not there to compete. And the dojo would probably lose a good student. Not from a financial standpoint but from a having the right people training standpoint. 

Or take someone in my shoes. The only knockdown tournaments left near me is the open tournament in NYC. Almost 3 hours away. So if I have to compete to be eligible for shodan, I’ve got to compete against guys who’ve actually won European championships and the like. That’s the only competition I can go to without getting on an airplane that I know of. I see nothing wrong with competing against those guys if I’m a nidan or sandan, but as a kyu rank? There’s a good chance I could get seriously injured or worse. Unless you’re Dolph Lundgren pretending to be a brown belt so you can compete with those guys  , you’re going to get killed. Realistically speaking, there’s no proving anything under those conditions. 

The competition rule makes sense for the overall student body, but doesn’t make sense for a select few individuals under certain circumstances. Having an age and disability waiver/clause to the rule makes sense to me.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Mar 8, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I completely agree with what you’re saying. But there are and should be exceptions to every rule.
> 
> For example let’s say you’ve got a nidan who’s fulfilled all his requirements for that grade, then gets injured permanently but can still train at an acceptable level. Training is fine but knockdown competition is too risky. Do you never promote that person ever again simply because he didn’t compete at a level sandan requires? Or you’ve got a guy like my father who’s a blue collar guy (mechanic) and can definitely handle himself and decides to take up Kyokushin today at 70 years old (it’s still hard to believe he turned 70 a few months ago). Does he really need to compete against 20 somethings just to be eligible to promote? Knowing my father and Kyokushin, he’d be fine to train, but he wouldn’t compete. He’d simply say here’s not there to compete. And the dojo would probably lose a good student. Not from a financial standpoint but from a having the right people training standpoint.
> 
> ...


Actually the exception lies in the hands of the CI.  He is the one that has been watching you train and he is the one best qualified to know when an exception, if any, should be granted and I am ok with that.  

If you had a Nidan that got injured and still wanted to train and continue to participate, I would see nothing wrong with that.   If he wanted to grade to Sandan and the CI felt that he was qualified to do that, I wouldn't see anything wrong with that.   Not all Shodan gradings are the same.   Some are more demanding than others even within the same dojo and we all accept the word of our CI that the gradings are tailored to the individuals grading.  Am I salty that my grading was far longer and more comprehensive than a few that I have attended before ?  No I take it as a point of pride.  Most of the people that attended my grading also know what I am now capable of so what reason would I have to be salty about the differences.   

If your dad is 70 and would like to take up Kyokushin (god bless him) I would certainly encourage him to do so.   Competing at a tournament is generally encouraged at 4th kyu for kumite but I expect your dad wouldn't find many opponents of his vintage so I expect this would not be a hinderance for his promotion.   

I actually don't think that it is too unreasonable to drive 3 hours to go to a competition over the weekend.  I am sure you have travelled longer and farther for other sports.   Just the opportunity alone to compete with a larger pool of fighters is a lesson in itself.  Let's not forget the feeling of putting it all on the line against a guy doing the exact same thing.  There is something to be said for the bond that is created by that moment.   

Generally speaking you will not be matched up with someone who has a lot more experience than you do.  Your CI would make sure of that (or he should).   No one learns anything from an easy match and that is not watch Kyokushin is all about.   It begins and ends with respect.  

Yes, I can certainly see how there are some exceptions to the guidelines and that is why I think of them more as guidelines.  Ultimately, your CI is the one that applies them and he or she is the best one to ensure you grow as a karateka in the safest way possible.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 8, 2019)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Actually the exception lies in the hands of the CI.  He is the one that has been watching you train and he is the one best qualified to know when an exception, if any, should be granted and I am ok with that.
> 
> If you had a Nidan that got injured and still wanted to train and continue to participate, I would see nothing wrong with that.   If he wanted to grade to Sandan and the CI felt that he was qualified to do that, I wouldn't see anything wrong with that.   Not all Shodan gradings are the same.   Some are more demanding than others even within the same dojo and we all accept the word of our CI that the gradings are tailored to the individuals grading.  Am I salty that my grading was far longer and more comprehensive than a few that I have attended before ?  No I take it as a point of pride.  Most of the people that attended my grading also know what I am now capable of so what reason would I have to be salty about the differences.
> 
> ...


I’ve traveled 3 hours to compete. I did it 3 years ago to compete in Seido’s 40th anniversary tournament.

The Kyokushin tournament in NYC is the North American open (or US open?). I don’t think there’s a lower level portion of it. So if you have a 4th kyu who’s required to compete to be eligible to test for 3rd, that’s the only competition within reasonable distance. 3 hours is reasonable IMO. 

When I test for shodan I’ll have to make that trip I think 4 times during a few week period. It’s going to be inconvenient and the cost is going add up, but it is what it is.

All the Kyokushin competition stuff is hypothetical. My father’s not looking to train, but he’d be capable of he wanted to. 

Again, we’re on the same page. It should be a rule that CIs can waive. I was just giving examples of when a CI should. I remember the kyokushin4life guys in Europe I believe, saying there was the requirement and debating exceptions to it. Not all CIs were allowing exceptions. But they’ve also got a lot more lower level competitions available than we do. Here it seems like North American open or nothing. There’s some point fighting competitions, but they’re not Kyokushin sanctioned so I don’t know if they’d technically fulfill requirements. 

Again, all hypothetical.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Mar 11, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’ve traveled 3 hours to compete. I did it 3 years ago to compete in Seido’s 40th anniversary tournament.
> 
> The Kyokushin tournament in NYC is the North American open (or US open?). I don’t think there’s a lower level portion of it. So if you have a 4th kyu who’s required to compete to be eligible to test for 3rd, that’s the only competition within reasonable distance. 3 hours is reasonable IMO.
> 
> ...


I have never heard competing was a strict requirement for a kyu rank but I have heard it was highly recommended for Dan ranks (should you pursuing a teaching path eventually) in some countries.    Again, I can understand the desire of some CI's to make this part of their curriculum.  In the same respect instructors are 'required' to do warm ups instead of standing at the head of the class with their thumbs in their belts as the kyu ranks sweat it out, it is part of the culture of a Kyokushin dojo.  It has more to do with 'earning' the respect of your students as opposed to expecting it to come with the belt.  If you have competed in Knockdown your opinion should carry more weight because of your personal experience.

I believe we are on the same page when it comes to these guidelines and the CI's prerogative to enforce them.    He is, after all, the best qualified person to set the curriculum requirements and produce the best students that he can.   The CI has to use their judgement on how best to cultivate practitioners given the location that they are in.   Too stringent a curriculum in a place where people are not seeking a tough curriculum and their business will be a failure.  Too lax a curriculum and the students will not be up to par.  

We are fortunate where we are as there are a number of high quality local and regional tournaments in our area.   Do you know who organizes the NA Open in NYC ?   Is it different from the IKO 1 All American Open ?


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 11, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> What nonsense I'm paying to be there so I'll ask if I'm testing because I have a right to. My grandad used to do karate and for some reason the instructor didn't want him to grade even though all the other instructors thought he was ready. So he asked the head instructor and asked if he could have a chance to show he was ready and guess what the instructor watched and agreed he was ready and apologised for not giving him a fair chance at first. People need to stop treating an instructor like a god they're human beings so I will talk to any instructor like one and if an instructors being a jerk I'll call him out on it


Let me make sure I understood what you said. Since you are paying you dues you have the right to test?


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 11, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Let me make sure I understood what you said. Since you are paying you dues you have the right to test?


You need to read again. I pay so I have every right to ask if I can.

This is what I wrote read it slowly to avoid confusion.

"What nonsense I'm paying to be there so I'll ASK if I'm testing because I have a right to. "

Now if you're still confused feel free to ask.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 11, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> You need to read again. I pay so I have every right to ask if I can.
> 
> This is what I wrote read it slowly to avoid confusion.
> 
> ...


Yea, I'm still confused.
I have read the opening sentence (which has bad grammar) several times. I read it as you saying "of course I am going to ask to test because I am paying to be there". As if paying for class is the only precursor for testing.


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 11, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Yea, I'm still confused.
> I have read the opening sentence (which has bad grammar) several times. I read it as you saying "of course I am going to ask to test because I am paying to be there". As if paying for class is the only precursor for testing.


Yeah there's the word A-S-K that spells the word ask. I didn't say I'd demand to or that I was entitled to test I said I will ask if I can and not be to scared to open my mouth like some people are. If they say no you're not testing then fine whatever but I'm still going to ask. Confused still?


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 11, 2019)

Yokozuna514 said:


> I have never heard competing was a strict requirement for a kyu rank but I have heard it was highly recommended for Dan ranks (should you pursuing a teaching path eventually) in some countries.    Again, I can understand the desire of some CI's to make this part of their curriculum.  In the same respect instructors are 'required' to do warm ups instead of standing at the head of the class with their thumbs in their belts as the kyu ranks sweat it out, it is part of the culture of a Kyokushin dojo.  It has more to do with 'earning' the respect of your students as opposed to expecting it to come with the belt.  If you have competed in Knockdown your opinion should carry more weight because of your personal experience.
> 
> I believe we are on the same page when it comes to these guidelines and the CI's prerogative to enforce them.    He is, after all, the best qualified person to set the curriculum requirements and produce the best students that he can.   The CI has to use their judgement on how best to cultivate practitioners given the location that they are in.   Too stringent a curriculum in a place where people are not seeking a tough curriculum and their business will be a failure.  Too lax a curriculum and the students will not be up to par.
> 
> We are fortunate where we are as there are a number of high quality local and regional tournaments in our area.   Do you know who organizes the NA Open in NYC ?   Is it different from the IKO 1 All American Open ?


I think it’s the IKO1 All America Open. 

There used to be a few good semi local knockdown tournaments for all levels when I was training that in the mid 90s. Last I heard the tournament in NYC was the pretty much the only one left and there wasn’t any lower level divisions. That person could’ve been misinformed about the divisions though.

I think MMA did some damage to knockdown competition and enrollment numbers. Add to that people just don’t want to put the blood sweat and tears into it like they used to, and you’ve got less people into it.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Mar 11, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I think it’s the IKO1 All America Open.
> 
> There used to be a few good semi local knockdown tournaments for all levels when I was training that in the mid 90s. Last I heard the tournament in NYC was the pretty much the only one left and there wasn’t any lower level divisions. That person could’ve been misinformed about the divisions though.
> 
> I think MMA did some damage to knockdown competition and enrollment numbers. Add to that people just don’t want to put the blood sweat and tears into it like they used to, and you’ve got less people into it.


I think Rochester still has 'Ring Wars' and there are some offshoot tournaments still around if I am not mistaken but aside from inter dojo invitationals I think the tournament scene in the north east is fairly limited unless you head north across the border.  Not going to get into all the politics as to how we got here but suffice it say that it hasn't helped. 

I am sure MMA gyms have put a dent into knockdown competitions and enrolment numbers in the US, possibly in Canada too.  As in most things, it is the quality of instruction you receive that is not always assured.  Sure there are great places to train and learn MMA but one must do their research and apply the same logic to finding a good gym as they do for finding a good dojo.

The great thing about living in North America is that we have so much choice in how we want to get and stay in shape.  I can't speak about how people do not want to put in the blood, sweat and tears to learn how to fight but it seems like the 'need' to defend yourself these days is overshadowed by the ability for people to protect themselves by flashing their cel phone camera.  One definitely takes a lot less sweat that is for sure.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 11, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah there's the word A-S-K that spells the word ask. I didn't say I'd demand to or that I was entitled to test I said I will ask if I can and not be to scared to open my mouth like some people are. If they say no you're not testing then fine whatever but I'm still going to ask. Confused still?


We are getting closer. Asking aside, do expect to test because you have paid you financial dues?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 12, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> We are getting closer. Asking aside, do expect to test because you have paid you financial dues?


I thought he made it pretty clear he is entitled to ASK, but not to test. If the instructor said "not yet", he'd be okay with that.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 12, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I thought he made it pretty clear he is entitled to ASK, but not to test. If the instructor said "not yet", he'd be okay with that.


I get that. So let's draw a scenario. A person is set up on an annual membership with a monthly draw. The school regularly test every 3-4 months and this is commonly known. The curriculum is commonly known. The school offers unlimited classes or at least 3-4 classes/week for all students. The student elects to attend only 1-2 times/week and is not progressing as quickly as others with the same time-in-grade. Testing time comes around and the student thinks they should test simply because they have been paying their dues. 
I have seen this at multiple schools and it is frequently a topic at our owners meetings. It is the most annoying topic I can think of. Some of the students come around and figure it out. Some simply disappear. Saddening and frustrating.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 12, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I get that. So let's draw a scenario. A person is set up on an annual membership with a monthly draw. The school regularly test every 3-4 months and this is commonly known. The curriculum is commonly known. The school offers unlimited classes or at least 3-4 classes/week for all students. The student elects to attend only 1-2 times/week and is not progressing as quickly as others with the same time-in-grade. Testing time comes around and the student thinks they should test simply because they have been paying their dues.
> I have seen this at multiple schools and it is frequently a topic at our owners meetings. It is the most annoying topic I can think of. Some of the students come around and figure it out. Some simply disappear. Saddening and frustrating.


This can be an issue even at schools where testing isn't scheduled. The places I trained at that used testing always made it clear testing was at the instructor's discretion (and pleasure), not the student's. That didn't stop some students from getting upset when they were told "no".


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 12, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> This can be an issue even at schools where testing isn't scheduled. The places I trained at that used testing always made it clear testing was at the instructor's discretion (and pleasure), not the student's. That didn't stop some students from getting upset when they were told "no".


Agree. Somewhere in all this is the "coach 'em up aspect". If the instructor has done their job it should be easy to say no if necessary. IHMO, easier that the student already knows they are not ready and doesn't ask in the first place. Expectation is a powerful motivator.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 12, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I get that. So let's draw a scenario. A person is set up on an annual membership with a monthly draw. The school regularly test every 3-4 months and this is commonly known. The curriculum is commonly known. The school offers unlimited classes or at least 3-4 classes/week for all students. The student elects to attend only 1-2 times/week and is not progressing as quickly as others with the same time-in-grade. Testing time comes around and the student thinks they should test simply because they have been paying their dues.
> I have seen this at multiple schools and it is frequently a topic at our owners meetings. It is the most annoying topic I can think of. Some of the students come around and figure it out. Some simply disappear. Saddening and frustrating.


Instead of a minimum time frame, have a minimum number of classes. Or a minimum of time AND classes. Our syllabus states a minimum number of classes and time. My teacher looks at the number of classes, not so much at time for kyu ranks. There have been people who tested earlier because they had more than enough classes in. But they were always ready to test. 

Stress it’s a MINIMUM and not a rule that they have to test after X classes and/or time.

Example: 
Promotion from to 1st kyu
...(Skipping parts about all previous material, requirements, CI’s approval et al)...
“Minimum 6 months of training AND 60 classes since last promotion.”

If your current interval is 3 months, take the minimum number of classes you think they should attend per week and do the math. Make it a number they can honestly hit, given there aren’t the same number of weeks every month, dojo closings for holidays, etc. 10 classes per month sounds like a good average to me.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 12, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Instead of a minimum time frame, have a minimum number of classes. Or a minimum of time AND classes. Our syllabus states a minimum number of classes and time. My teacher looks at the number of classes, not so much at time for kyu ranks. There have been people who tested earlier because they had more than enough classes in. But they were always ready to test.
> 
> Stress it’s a MINIMUM and not a rule that they have to test after X classes and/or time.
> 
> ...


I need to read through our manual given to each new student (it's been a while). I do not know how/if it specifically explains the requirements to test. That is a good model to include a minimum number of classes. I would add, for me at least, time to digest and process material outside of class is sometimes as helpful as time inside the dojang. But that is a very vague measure and I would consider it meaningless for calculating time-in-grade. Most of our adult red belts, (3rd to 1st gup) skip some testing's to better prepare of their own accord. Kids seem to move through a little quicker.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 12, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I need to read through our manual given to each new student (it's been a while). I do not know how/if it specifically explains the requirements to test. That is a good model to include a minimum number of classes. I would add, for me at least, time to digest and process material outside of class is sometimes as helpful as time inside the dojang. But that is a very vague measure and I would consider it meaningless for calculating time-in-grade. Most of our adult red belts, (3rd to 1st gup) skip some testing's to better prepare of their own accord. Kids seem to move through a little quicker.


Those are minimum times. Most people are a good amount over the minimum when they’re invited to test. I’ve tested on time every time, but I also have significant previous experience in an organization that was started by two guys who left my current organization. The syllabi are about 90% identical in both up to 1st dan. At 1st dan it’s about 50% identical that I’ve seen so far. I was scheduled to test for 2nd dan in my previous organization when I left and somehow remembered everything 15 years later. My teacher and I were walking through the 2 black belt katas that I know a few weeks ago; we got on that somehow by discussing changes over the years, and it was “I did this this way first, then changed to this, then changed to that.” He smiled and said they went through the same thing independently of each other. Then it was “let me see how much you remember” so I did both katas. Not pretty, but I definitely got that unspoken nod of approval. If all goes well and I can stay healthy I should test for 1st dan again around this time next year. 1st kyu to 1st dan is one year and 120 classes minimum. No hurry on my end. Been there, done that. No need to chase it. I’ll be ready when I’m ready and when my CI says I am.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Mar 13, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Those are minimum times. Most people are a good amount over the minimum when they’re invited to test. I’ve tested on time every time, but I also have significant previous experience in an organization that was started by two guys who left my current organization. The syllabi are about 90% identical in both up to 1st dan. At 1st dan it’s about 50% identical that I’ve seen so far. I was scheduled to test for 2nd dan in my previous organization when I left and somehow remembered everything 15 years later. My teacher and I were walking through the 2 black belt katas that I know a few weeks ago; we got on that somehow by discussing changes over the years, and it was “I did this this way first, then changed to this, then changed to that.” He smiled and said they went through the same thing independently of each other. Then it was “let me see how much you remember” so I did both katas. Not pretty, but I definitely got that unspoken nod of approval. If all goes well and I can stay healthy I should test for 1st dan again around this time next year. 1st kyu to 1st dan is one year and 120 classes minimum. No hurry on my end. Been there, done that. No need to chase it. I’ll be ready when I’m ready and when my CI says I am.


Good luck, JR137.   Out of curiosity, what are the two katas you mentioned ?


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 13, 2019)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Good luck, JR137.   Out of curiosity, what are the two katas you mentioned ?


Seiunchin and Gekisai Sho. 

A shodan was talking about where the hands start out at the very beginning of Seiunchin. Chambered, straight down after yoi, etc. It’s been changed back and forth a few times. I was watching and and chuckled and said that and another thing changed twice while I was actually learning the kata. We also did then didn’t do a morote shuto kinda movement at knee height before the hands went straight down. My CI asked me how I learned it, so I showed him. He nodded and said they’ve been through all that too.

Then it turned into “show me the rest of the kata.” Then Gekisai Sho somehow went into the mix.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Mar 13, 2019)

I enjoy doing both those katas very much.  I've been working on making Gekisai Sho more dynamic (as they do it in Europe) and it has been rather inspiring.   Seiunchin is a kata I just started working on.  I am trying to picture the 'morote shuto' move you were describing.  Not sure if I have ever seen that iteration.  

Travelling to Europe for this tournament has given me a pause to consider how I do all my advanced katas.  Although the katas are essentially the same, the tempo is quite different so the performance looks quite different as well.   A lot less monochromatic than the examples you see on youtube.    If you have a video demonstrating this move it would be cool to see it.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 13, 2019)

Yokozuna514 said:


> I enjoy doing both those katas very much.  I've been working on making Gekisai Sho more dynamic (as they do it in Europe) and it has been rather inspiring.   Seiunchin is a kata I just started working on.  I am trying to picture the 'morote shuto' move you were describing.  Not sure if I have ever seen that iteration.
> 
> Travelling to Europe for this tournament has given me a pause to consider how I do all my advanced katas.  Although the katas are essentially the same, the tempo is quite different so the performance looks quite different as well.   A lot less monochromatic than the examples you see on youtube.    If you have a video demonstrating this move it would be cool to see it.


I don’t have a video. I can video myself doing it and email it. I’ll send you a PM when I do that.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Mar 13, 2019)

Looking forward to seeing the kata.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 13, 2019)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Looking forward to seeing the kata.


Other than walking through it that one night a few weeks ag, I haven’t done it in quite some time. It won’t be pretty.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 13, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I don’t have a video. I can video myself doing it and email it. I’ll send you a PM when I do that.


Can I get on that email list? Would love to see it.


----------



## Hanshi (Mar 13, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> There has been talk here before, that when it comes to testing for rank, asking your instructor "can I test?" has been frowned upon as being disrespectful.
> 
> So how about this, what if it's taking you longer to test than you expected?





Most schools have either a specific or at least general testing schedule for the earlier color, or kyu, belts.  Some students will be ready on time while others may need a little extra training but individual abilities are allowed for.  Initially, in my school, the first few belts included a set time interval between tests.  But around the brown belt levels simple time intervals may not work as well since the requirements at that point can be much more demanding.  Asking to test at that level and especially at the dan levels is usually frowned upon; just asking for progressional feedback, however, is okay in my opinion.  I think the idea is not to get "pushy" and be willing to approach the subject sort of, _tangentially_.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 13, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Can I get on that email list? Would love to see it.


Sure. But it ain’t gonna be pretty, that’s for sure. Maybe I should follow it up with something I’m actually good at to redeem myself. 

Edit: Who am I kidding? I should’ve said something that I’m less bad at


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 14, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Im talking about testing for the color belts up to and including first Dan but not so much about testing for higher dan ranks such as 2nd dan, 3rd dan, ect.
> Some schools do have a timeline or curriculum but not all. As you point out promotions for color belts do come relatively often although there are some styles where that is the exception such as BJJ where it takes an average of two years to get your next color belt. But if color belt promotions do come often than that would be an even stronger case of it taking longer than what you expect if it is taking longer than you expect.


I would like to correct myself from what I said in the previous post of mine quoted above. What Im talking about is testing for any belt or rank a student wants to test for, including higher dan ranks. As for me, I don't care much about rank advancement beyond 1st Dan but there are some students that do. A poster on this forum talked about testing for 5th Dan on this other thread. And then I knew this student who didn't care to promote beyond 3rd Kyu so he wouldn'tve asked about testing at that point. So what Im talking about is any rank a student hopes to earn, whether its a Kyu rank, a high Dan rank, or anything in between.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 14, 2019)

Hanshi said:


> But around the brown belt levels simple time intervals may not work as well since the requirements at that point can be much more demanding.  Asking to test at that level and especially at the dan levels is usually frowned upon; just asking for progressional feedback, however, is okay in my opinion.


Alright, so how about, at that level, asking what I would need to do to test, what I would need to work on to be able to test and pass, how about asking that?


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 14, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright, so how about, at that level, asking what I would need to do to test, what I would need to work on to be able to test and pass, how about asking that?


If you can be specific, I think you will get a better answer. In TKD, the higher you go in Dan rank the more it has to do with growing your school(s) and promotion the art, at your federation level and overall. This does not mean there are no physical components, far from it. A person is still expect to grind through the required class amount and improve and grow; that is the tangible part that everybody can see. It is the intangibles that go unnoticed.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 14, 2019)

I'm not sure I've ever seen such a simple thing made so ridiculously complicated.

Follow the rules at your school. If it's ok to ask, ask. If it's not, don't.
#facepalm


----------



## DocWard (Mar 14, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm not sure I've ever seen such a simple thing made so ridiculously complicated.
> 
> Follow the rules at your school. If it's ok to ask, ask. If it's not, don't.
> #facepalm



There must be a lot of attorneys around here, we've been making the simple complex since the dawn of history...


----------



## Buka (Mar 15, 2019)

Looking back, I think the only people who ever asked were white belts. 

You have to forgive them for just about anything, because, you know, they're white belts. 
Kind of like puppies.


----------



## donald1 (Mar 16, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Sure. But it ain’t gonna be pretty, that’s for sure. Maybe I should follow it up with something I’m actually good at to redeem myself.
> 
> Edit: Who am I kidding? I should’ve said something that I’m less bad at


Add a couple well placed loud kiai in and nobody will notice the mistakes.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 22, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm not sure I've ever seen such a simple thing made so ridiculously complicated.
> 
> Follow the rules at your school. If it's ok to ask, ask. If it's not, don't.
> #facepalm


First you would have to know if its OK to ask, you're not going to know if its OK to ask without asking in the first place.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 22, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> First you would have to know if its OK to ask, you're not going to know if its OK to ask without asking in the first place.



Let's just say you're clearly not ready to test yet.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 22, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> First you would have to know if its OK to ask, you're not going to know if its OK to ask without asking in the first place.


Both places I trained at told me it wasn’t ok to ask BEFORE I actually signed up. I’d assume most places tell you the protocol either when you start or when testing time is coming up for your first time. Also, most places are (or at least should be) lenient with beginners. Let’s say neither of my teachers made it clear when I started, if I asked after a few months, they’d politely tell me the policy. If they told me the policy and I asked anyway, then there’s an issue that needs to be addressed better.


----------



## geezer (Mar 22, 2019)

Photon Guy:  Sorry if this has been said before, as I admit that I haven't read the entire thread ...but if memory serves me at all, this particular question about whether or not it is acceptable to ask to test has been a major concern of yours since you first began posting here _going on five years ago!_ What's up with that???


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Other than walking through it that one night a few weeks ag, I haven’t done it in quite some time. It won’t be pretty.


You'll be in the video, so that goes without saying.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Both places I trained at told me it wasn’t ok to ask BEFORE I actually signed up. I’d assume most places tell you the protocol either when you start or when testing time is coming up for your first time. Also, most places are (or at least should be) lenient with beginners. Let’s say neither of my teachers made it clear when I started, if I asked after a few months, they’d politely tell me the policy. If they told me the policy and I asked anyway, then there’s an issue that needs to be addressed better.


I would assume most places would mention it if it matters much. If it's not mentioned - in most cases - it's probably not a big deal. They may not be willing to answer the question directly, but would probably not object to the asking.

That's excepting the relatively few ego-tripping folks who like to lay traps to assert their dominance.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 25, 2019)

geezer said:


> Photon Guy:  Sorry if this has been said before, as I admit that I haven't read the entire thread ...but if memory serves me at all, this particular question about whether or not it is acceptable to ask to test has been a major concern of yours since you first began posting here _going on five years ago!_ What's up with that???



Yes it has been and its because I haven't really made my point at least not to the extent that I have hoped to. This is my bad as I haven't been saying it the right way. I've got a communication problem and while I've worked on it quite a bit I still do need more work so I will continue to do so.

Anyway, as best as I can put it, the point is this. If, as a student you hit a plateau in rank advancement where its taking you significantly longer then you expect to test and/or promote, at that point would it be a problem to ask or say something about it?


----------



## skribs (Mar 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I would assume most places would mention it if it matters much. If it's not mentioned - in most cases - it's probably not a big deal. They may not be willing to answer the question directly, but would probably not object to the asking.
> 
> That's excepting the relatively few ego-tripping folks who like to lay traps to assert their dominance.



Either that, or it's something they weren't thinking about during the onboarding process, or it's something they figured it was a rule the new student wouldn't need to know until they started thinking about testing.


----------



## skribs (Mar 25, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Let's just say you're clearly not ready to test yet.



So he's not able to test until he can read his instructor's mind?


----------



## skribs (Mar 25, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> If, as a student you hit a plateau in rank advancement where its taking you significantly longer then you expect to test and/or promote, at that point would it be a problem to ask or say something about it?



You can ask what you need to do in order to prepare for your test.  "Master/instructor, I notice that I have been at my belt for a long time now.  I want to know what techniques I should be working on in order to advance."  (Or something along those lines).  This tells your Master that you're not trying to demand that you be tested for promotion, and shows that you're seeking guidance on where they want you to improve.  Chances are, if you've plateaued, there's something they're looking for you to improve before you test.

It also has the benefit that maybe you're well on track, and they've just kind of missed you (depending on the size of your school, it can happen).  So if you are ready, maybe this will give them the idea that they should check you.  It could also be something else, such as your time-in-grade.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 25, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes it has been and its because I haven't really made my point at least not to the extent that I have hoped to. This is my bad as I haven't been saying it the right way. I've got a communication problem and while I've worked on it quite a bit I still do need more work so I will continue to do so.
> 
> Anyway, as best as I can put it, the point is this. If, as a student you hit a plateau in rank advancement where its taking you significantly longer then you expect to test and/or promote, at that point would it be a problem to ask or say something about it?


I would think in almost any school, if you ask about the plateau in learning (rather than why you're stuck at a rank), there would be no issue.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> Either that, or it's something they weren't thinking about during the onboarding process, or it's something they figured it was a rule the new student wouldn't need to know until they started thinking about testing.


Perhaps. My point was that if it's a big deal, they'll probably bring it up early. Otherwise, it's likely to be not a big deal.


----------



## skribs (Mar 25, 2019)

I actually had a student come up to me and ask me if it was ok for him to ask the Master for a test notification if he hasn't gotten one yet.  I thought of this thread.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Apr 18, 2019)

skribs said:


> So he's not able to test until he can read his instructor's mind?


Well Im certainly not ready to test at Dirty Dog's school, or in his case, demonstrate and be promoted since that's how I recall its done at his school. Why? Because Im not a student there. To be able to test or promote at a school, first you have to be a student there.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Apr 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> You can ask what you need to do in order to prepare for your test.  "Master/instructor, I notice that I have been at my belt for a long time now.  I want to know what techniques I should be working on in order to advance."  (Or something along those lines).  This tells your Master that you're not trying to demand that you be tested for promotion, and shows that you're seeking guidance on where they want you to improve.  Chances are, if you've plateaued, there's something they're looking for you to improve before you test.
> 
> It also has the benefit that maybe you're well on track, and they've just kind of missed you (depending on the size of your school, it can happen).  So if you are ready, maybe this will give them the idea that they should check you.  It could also be something else, such as your time-in-grade.



That's basically what Im saying. Lets say it takes you eight months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu. Now, a year after making 1st Kyu you have still not tested for and/or been promoted to 1st Dan. At that point I don't think it would be wrong to ask or say something about it, to ask why you haven't tested for or been promoted to 1st Dan and what you need to do in order to get to 1st Dan, what you need to work on, ect. If it takes eight months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu then it should take that long to get from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan, or maybe a year at the most.


----------



## dvcochran (Apr 25, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> That's basically what Im saying. Lets say it takes you eight months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu. Now, a year after making 1st Kyu you have still not tested for and/or been promoted to 1st Dan. At that point I don't think it would be wrong to ask or say something about it, to ask why you haven't tested for or been promoted to 1st Dan and what you need to do in order to get to 1st Dan, what you need to work on, ect. If it takes eight months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu then it should take that long to get from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan, or maybe a year at the most.


I have no idea if this is your situation but I would say be careful about thinking calendar time it the automatic trigger for advancing. What is most important is how much actual training time you have put in for a given calendar time. That said, I see no issue with asking your instructor what the curriculum is to your next belt. Frankly, I feel that should be common informatio for all students.


----------



## JR 137 (Apr 25, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> That's basically what Im saying. Lets say it takes you eight months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu. Now, a year after making 1st Kyu you have still not tested for and/or been promoted to 1st Dan. At that point I don't think it would be wrong to ask or say something about it, to ask why you haven't tested for or been promoted to 1st Dan and what you need to do in order to get to 1st Dan, what you need to work on, ect. If it takes eight months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu then it should take that long to get from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan, or maybe a year at the most.


Like great comedy, asking why you’re not being tested is all in the delivery.


----------



## JR 137 (Apr 25, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I have no idea if this is your situation but I would say be careful about thinking calendar time it the automatic trigger for advancing. What is most important is how much actual training time you have put in for a given calendar time. That said, I see no issue with asking your instructor what the curriculum is to your next belt. Frankly, I feel that should be common informatio for all students.


Everyone should have a copy of the syllabus which should include all requirements for each rank and promoting to the next rank, or at least access to one.

Every time I’ve promoted, I’ve always asked my teacher what the requirements are for that rank and minimum time to the next rank. He’s never had a problem answering me. I told him every time “it’s the teacher in me. I need to know the curriculum.” He chuckles and says “everyone should know what’s expected of them and what they need to do to advance.”

We have a copy of our organization’s official manual of sorts right at the front and center of the class. It has all requirements to promote, the full syllabus, and written instructions of everything standardized thing up to and I think including 4th dan. Everyone’s allowed to look at it whenever they want (except during class for obvious reasons). He and the other instructors open it up during class  regularly when they’re unsure of something as well. Nothing secretive at all.

We’re supposed to be given copies of the syllabus (and other stuff) each time we promote, but my CI is pretty old school. Meaning everything is from typewriter days and somehow we’re always short on copies. I’ve been meaning to type everything up for him in Word documents and save them for him to clean them up and make things easier, but you know how that goes. A lot of the stuff has handwritten notes, stuff crossed out, underlined, etc.

I’m going to try to motivate myself to do it once the school year is over. I figure it’ll help me study stuff for my black belt test whenever that’ll be; I’m at 1st kyu currently.


----------



## dvcochran (Apr 26, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Everyone should have a copy of the syllabus which should include all requirements for each rank and promoting to the next rank, or at least access to one.
> 
> Every time I’ve promoted, I’ve always asked my teacher what the requirements are for that rank and minimum time to the next rank. He’s never had a problem answering me. I told him every time “it’s the teacher in me. I need to know the curriculum.” He chuckles and says “everyone should know what’s expected of them and what they need to do to advance.”
> 
> ...


I like it. Just the way it should be done.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Everyone should have a copy of the syllabus which should include all requirements for each rank and promoting to the next rank, or at least access to one.
> 
> Every time I’ve promoted, I’ve always asked my teacher what the requirements are for that rank and minimum time to the next rank. He’s never had a problem answering me. I told him every time “it’s the teacher in me. I need to know the curriculum.” He chuckles and says “everyone should know what’s expected of them and what they need to do to advance.”
> 
> ...


I publish the basic guidelines (I might title them "requirements", but they're accompanied by a caveat that they are guidelines for the instructor, who can add and substitute as needed) in the student manual, which also contains basic history, some vocabulary, and etiquette. All told, it's about 20 pages, half-letter (slightly larger than half-folded A4, for folks across the pond). It doesn't contain detailed descriptions of the techniques, because I've not found a description - including my own - in writing that I'm happy with. But they at least know what the basic requirements are, though I consider it my responsibility to guide them through those. My approach is to get them what they need for promotion, then give them plenty of time to work on it (no new testable information for a few months). It's their responsibility to get it to the required level...a job which they (almost by definition) cannot reliably assess their progress on, since they don't know how to test someone for that level, so I help them know what they're doing well on and what they're falling behind on (compared to their progress in other areas).


----------



## dvcochran (Apr 27, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I publish the basic guidelines (I might title them "requirements", but they're accompanied by a caveat that they are guidelines for the instructor, who can add and substitute as needed) in the student manual, which also contains basic history, some vocabulary, and etiquette. All told, it's about 20 pages, half-letter (slightly larger than half-folded A4, for folks across the pond). It doesn't contain detailed descriptions of the techniques, because I've not found a description - including my own - in writing that I'm happy with. But they at least know what the basic requirements are, though I consider it my responsibility to guide them through those. My approach is to get them what they need for promotion, then give them plenty of time to work on it (no new testable information for a few months). It's their responsibility to get it to the required level...a job which they (almost by definition) cannot reliably assess their progress on, since they don't know how to test someone for that level, so I help them know what they're doing well on and what they're falling behind on (compared to their progress in other areas).


Agree. The stated requirements should not be an end all/be all description or explanation of each technique. It would end up being one of those journals few people took the time to read and fewer who would understand what they read. If a student is able to name the required elements for the basis of discussion and dissemination with their instructor, that can really help the training process.


----------



## JR 137 (Apr 27, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I publish the basic guidelines (I might title them "requirements", but they're accompanied by a caveat that they are guidelines for the instructor, who can add and substitute as needed) in the student manual, which also contains basic history, some vocabulary, and etiquette. All told, it's about 20 pages, half-letter (slightly larger than half-folded A4, for folks across the pond). It doesn't contain detailed descriptions of the techniques, because I've not found a description - including my own - in writing that I'm happy with. But they at least know what the basic requirements are, though I consider it my responsibility to guide them through those. My approach is to get them what they need for promotion, then give them plenty of time to work on it (no new testable information for a few months). It's their responsibility to get it to the required level...a job which they (almost by definition) cannot reliably assess their progress on, since they don't know how to test someone for that level, so I help them know what they're doing well on and what they're falling behind on (compared to their progress in other areas).


Our syllabus is just a list with English and Japanese names. It’s broken down into hand techniques, kicks, kata list, etc. for each rank. And minimum time/class requirements for promotion to the next rank. Minimum time/classes varies for each rank. 10th-5th kyu are 3 months or so, 4th and 3rd are 6 months, 2nd is 9 months, and 1st kyu is 1 year. Not sure on exact numbers, but those seem about right to me. 

I have no idea what the book at the front of the dojo is officially called; we call it “the black belt manual.” It’s broken down by each rank up to and including yondan. Each rank starts with the syllabus, then has each standardized thing written out step by step. Ie for kata it’ll tell you each count in English with the Japanese term for the move in parentheses. It sounds like it’ll be a huge binder-like thing, but it’s a softcover book about the size and thickness of a magazine. Just a quick reference manual. I’ve heard everyone gets one either from honbu or my teacher directly when they’re promoted to shodan.

My teacher used to give it to people earlier than shodan, but stopped because an interesting thing happened: people were using it to learn stuff rather than as reference as it was intended. He’d go to teach someone something like a new kata right after promotion and they were pretty much doing the whole thing without being taught. How does a kata you taught yourself to do from a book without pictures look? Pretty awful. He got tired of it.

Worse things happened with videos. My former organization and current one used to have videos of everything for each rank. Great idea, until people were learning from them and telling the teachers they were wrong. The best one was a guy telling the head of my former organization that he was wrong during a promotional test. He said to our head guy “the guy in the video said to do it like this.” Our head guy did all he could do to not strangle the student and said “do you know who the guy in the video is?” and walked away. That was the final straw - the unsold videos just went away. The student had no clue that the head guy was the guy in the video. Similar stuff happened in my current organization.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Our syllabus is just a list with English and Japanese names. It’s broken down into hand techniques, kicks, kata list, etc. for each rank. And minimum time/class requirements for promotion to the next rank. Minimum time/classes varies for each rank. 10th-5th kyu are 3 months or so, 4th and 3rd are 6 months, 2nd is 9 months, and 1st kyu is 1 year. Not sure on exact numbers, but those seem about right to me.
> 
> I have no idea what the book at the front of the dojo is officially called; we call it “the black belt manual.” It’s broken down by each rank up to and including yondan. Each rank starts with the syllabus, then has each standardized thing written out step by step. Ie for kata it’ll tell you each count in English with the Japanese term for the move in parentheses. It sounds like it’ll be a huge binder-like thing, but it’s a softcover book about the size and thickness of a magazine. Just a quick reference manual. I’ve heard everyone gets one either from honbu or my teacher directly when they’re promoted to shodan.
> 
> ...


I think students who try to tell instructors they're wrong because they saw something different in a video (rather than asking, why is it X in the video by that guy?) have issues they need to deal with.


----------



## JR 137 (Apr 27, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think students who try to tell instructors they're wrong because they saw something different in a video (rather than asking, why is it X in the video by that guy?) have issues they need to deal with.


I’ve seen some stupid stuff said, but that was by far the stupidest. And it wasn’t a kid. If it was a kid, he would’ve probably just laughed it off. 

What would you do if you made videos, went to correct one of your students’ student during a promotional test, and the guy you’re testing and correcting tells you the guy in the video said to do it a different way? I honestly don’t know how I’d react if I didn’t see it coming.

“The guy in the video” was the head guy who was testing him and trying to correct him. The student couldn’t figure that out. The head guy just walked away shaking his head, and the test suddenly became quite a bit harder. Thankfully I wasn’t testing that day and thankfully it wasn’t one of my teacher’s guys.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’ve seen some stupid stuff said, but that was by far the stupidest. And it wasn’t a kid. If it was a kid, he would’ve probably just laughed it off.
> 
> What would you do if you made videos, went to correct one of your students’ student during a promotional test, and the guy you’re testing and correcting tells you the guy in the video said to do it a different way? I honestly don’t know how I’d react if I didn’t see it coming.
> 
> “The guy in the video” was the head guy who was testing him and trying to correct him. The student couldn’t figure that out. The head guy just walked away shaking his head, and the test suddenly became quite a bit harder. Thankfully I wasn’t testing that day and thankfully it wasn’t one of my teacher’s guys.


I'm not sure how I'd handle that, either. It seems likely the Dunning-Kruger effect comes rolling in on folks like that, and they decide they know a lot more than they actually do.

I'm okay with students questioning, and even with them disagreeing with an assertion I make (assuming the disagreement is respectful and rational), but just telling the instructor they're wrong???


----------



## dvcochran (Apr 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure how I'd handle that, either. It seems likely the Dunning-Kruger effect comes rolling in on folks like that, and they decide they know a lot more than they actually do.
> 
> I'm okay with students questioning, and even with them disagreeing with an assertion I make (assuming the disagreement is respectful and rational), but just telling the instructor they're wrong???


Decorum is becoming a lost art.


----------



## JR 137 (Apr 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Decorum is becoming a lost art.


This was about 15-20 years ago. Before these millennials started becoming a thing. I was in my 20s and he was older than me. The videos were on VHS, if that gives you any idea.

You can fix techniques, you can fix protocol; you fix pretty much anything. But you just can’t fix stupid.


----------



## JR 137 (Apr 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure how I'd handle that, either. It seems likely the Dunning-Kruger effect comes rolling in on folks like that, and they decide they know a lot more than they actually do.
> 
> I'm okay with students questioning, and even with them disagreeing with an assertion I make (assuming the disagreement is respectful and rational), but just telling the instructor they're wrong???


Time and place for everything. And a way to go about it. My teacher is 7th dan. He’s been training longer than I’ve been alive, literally. There are I think a total of 8 people in our organization that are 7th and 8th dan. Being 1st kyu, I shouldn’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to being right 

There’s been a few times when I thought he was wrong. I simply asked after class for clarification. It’s almost always a thing where I was right in my understanding, but not in the context he was teaching it in. Or a matter of preference instead of an outright right vs wrong. Or simply something was changed by 

Another great example was I took a class at Kaicho’s dojo. My teacher goes there once a month on average (not including events or the like). During class there, I was corrected on 2 things that I’ve never been corrected on before. Simple things. Before class started I told my teacher what I was corrected on. One thing was “yeah, we need to do a better job looking for that and pointing it out” and the other was “I haven’t heard that before, but it makes sense.” If it was during class and I said “this is what he told me when I was there” it wouldn’t be a good thing. I’d probably get his thinking look and not much more. If I was really stupid and couldn’t move on, well, I don’t know. 

He’s always liked me asking questions. But it’s all about the timing and delivery. If there’s one time to not correct your teacher, it’s during a test. Make the change he’s telling you to make, and if you’re positive you’re sure you’re right and he’s wrong, address it later.


----------



## dvcochran (Apr 28, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Time and place for everything. And a way to go about it. My teacher is 7th dan. He’s been training longer than I’ve been alive, literally. There are I think a total of 8 people in our organization that are 7th and 8th dan. Being 1st kyu, I shouldn’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to being right
> 
> There’s been a few times when I thought he was wrong. I simply asked after class for clarification. It’s almost always a thing where I was right in my understanding, but not in the context he was teaching it in. Or a matter of preference instead of an outright right vs wrong. Or simply something was changed by
> 
> ...


Really good post.


----------



## Headhunter (Apr 28, 2019)

Well I had an instance today for asking to test. I know a tests coming up in a couple weeks. I know I was on the list to test but I'd had to miss a few weeks because of illness. Nothing much has been said about the test so I went up to the instructor before class and said hey am I good to go for the test? His answer: yep sure your on the list. Me: cool I'll pay the money at the end of the week.

Easy simple and no dramas or "disrespect"


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Decorum is becoming a lost art.


Or we're just turning into crotchety old men.


----------



## dvcochran (Apr 29, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Or we're just turning into crotchety old men.


I resemble that remark. Humph


----------



## skribs (Apr 30, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> My teacher used to give it to people earlier than shodan, but stopped because an interesting thing happened: people were using it to learn stuff rather than as reference as it was intended. He’d go to teach someone something like a new kata right after promotion and they were pretty much doing the whole thing without being taught. How does a kata you taught yourself to do from a book without pictures look? Pretty awful. He got tired of it.



I believe this is why my Master doesn't give these out much.  He wants people to come to class and learn from him, instead of using resources as an opportunity to skip class because they can study at home.



> Worse things happened with videos. My former organization and current one used to have videos of everything for each rank. Great idea, until people were learning from them and telling the teachers they were wrong. The best one was a guy telling the head of my former organization that he was wrong during a promotional test. He said to our head guy “the guy in the video said to do it like this.” Our head guy did all he could do to not strangle the student and said “do you know who the guy in the video is?” and walked away. That was the final straw - the unsold videos just went away. The student had no clue that the head guy was the guy in the video. Similar stuff happened in my current organization.



We've recently added a "new" set of forms to our curriculum, which are the official forms as standardized by our organization.  These are posted online, and I am finding them online so I can stay ahead of the students (since I am one of the instructors).  I've treated this as a homework project.  When I go to class, he checks my progress and then gives me his take on a few of the moves.  I go back and watch the videos, and I'd say probably 80% of his comments line up with the videos I've seen, and maybe 20% he's telling me something different.  I figure that the best course of action is to do what my Master says, and if later I go to a different school and they do it the way it is in the video, then I'll adjust.


----------



## skribs (Apr 30, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Worse things happened with videos. My former organization and current one used to have videos of everything for each rank. Great idea, until people were learning from them and telling the teachers they were wrong. The best one was a guy telling the head of my former organization that he was wrong during a promotional test. He said to our head guy “the guy in the video said to do it like this.” Our head guy did all he could do to not strangle the student and said “do you know who the guy in the video is?” and walked away. That was the final straw - the unsold videos just went away. The student had no clue that the head guy was the guy in the video. Similar stuff happened in my current organization.



This reminds me of something that happened to me in World of Warcraft.  I was real accurate on a fansite called Wowhead, where I would post all sorts of forum posts and articles.  (In case you couldn't tell by my time on here, I like forums).  So when the Cataclysm expansion launched, I ran some spreadsheets and used my expertise as a healer, in order to write a very well-received post about which enchants are best for healers.

Cut to a few weeks later, I'm arguing with another healer in my guild over the very same thing - which enchants are best for healers.  Keep in mind that my name on the forum is my normal online name (Skribs) and my name in-game was my character name (Irezfortips).  So when a third healer went to Wowhead to try and help us resolve our argument, he reads back everything I've just been saying.

*Me:  *Did you read that on Wowhead?
*Him:  *Yeah.
*Me:  *By a guy named Skribs?
*Him:  *Yeah...how'd you know that?
*Me:  *You realize I'm Skribs, right?  I wrote that.

I was literally quoted as the source material used by a third party arbitrator to settle an argument between me and someone else.


----------



## skribs (Apr 30, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Or we're just turning into crotchety old men.



The cracks and pops I hear when I'm stretching would suggest that to be the case.


----------



## PhotonGuy (May 5, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I would think in almost any school, if you ask about the plateau in learning (rather than why you're stuck at a rank), there would be no issue.


But if you're stuck at a rank you want to advance past that's also a plateau.


----------



## PhotonGuy (May 5, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I have no idea if this is your situation but I would say be careful about thinking calendar time it the automatic trigger for advancing. What is most important is how much actual training time you have put in for a given calendar time. That said, I see no issue with asking your instructor what the curriculum is to your next belt. Frankly, I feel that should be common informatio for all students.


Well calendar time alone is not sufficient to being promoted. You also have to show up and put in your time and hard work in class. But, if a student is showing up to class on a regular basis and training hard in class and if its taking the student longer than they anticipated to promote, and the student wants to promote, at that point there should be nothing wrong with the student asking or saying something about it.


----------



## PhotonGuy (May 5, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Everyone should have a copy of the syllabus which should include all requirements for each rank and promoting to the next rank, or at least access to one.


Yes, just like in college when you are working on a degree you get a sheet of paper or papers that list all the classes you have to take to get your degree, up to and including the final classes needed for your degree. The same thing with rank advancement in the martial arts, a student should get that same thing telling them what they need for every rank, up to and including first dan.


----------



## dvcochran (May 5, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well calendar time alone is not sufficient to being promoted. You also have to show up and put in your time and hard work in class. But, if a student is showing up to class on a regular basis and training hard in class and if its taking the student longer than they anticipated to promote, and the student wants to promote, at that point there should be nothing wrong with the student asking or saying something about it.


True. Done in a respectable way there is nothing wrong with talking to your instructor about it. That is still no guarantee that you automatically get to promote.


----------



## PhotonGuy (May 5, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> True. Done in a respectable way there is nothing wrong with talking to your instructor about it. That is still no guarantee that you automatically get to promote.


Even if you don't get to promote the important thing is to know why you're not promoting and what you need to work on so that you can promote, that's what the student should learn from the instructor by talking about it.


----------



## dvcochran (May 5, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes, just like in college when you are working on a degree you get a sheet of paper or papers that list all the classes you have to take to get your degree, up to and including the final classes needed for your degree. The same thing with rank advancement in the martial arts, a student should get that same thing telling them what they need for every rank, up to and including first dan.


There are still variables. Just like it is harder for some to do well at a written test in certain subject, the same is true in MA. It is simply harder for some. Nothing wrong with that. It is more difficult to help the struggling person navigate the difficulties and succeeded. There is a very old saying we used to use that some will not like but it applies to the situation; if it was easy they would have little girls doing it for half the money.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> But if you're stuck at a rank you want to advance past that's also a plateau.


I suppose that's true (especially if that holds you back in the curriculum). I never felt it that way. But if a student feels stuck because they haven't tested, I think they ought to ask for help with that problem.


----------



## PhotonGuy (May 15, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I suppose that's true (especially if that holds you back in the curriculum). I never felt it that way. But if a student feels stuck because they haven't tested, I think they ought to ask for help with that problem.


Basically that's what I've been saying, for the last five and a half or so years since I've joined this forum. If you're stuck at a certain rank you want to promote beyond then there is nothing wrong with talking to your sensei about it, asking stuff such as what you need to do, what you need to work on to promote to the next rank, whether that next rank be first dan or whatever else. 

Lets say I want to test for an be promoted to first dan and so I ask my sensei what I need to do. My sensei says I need to work on my kata Ananko. In that case I am going to bust my butt working on Ananko so that I can test and I can pass and earn first dan. 

The problem is when asking your sensei such stuff is frowned upon because "students aren't supposed to want to earn rank." Not all students do care about earning rank, obviously, but there are those that do and there is nothing wrong with having the goal of eventually earning a certain rank.


----------



## Tez3 (May 15, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> The problem is when asking your sensei such stuff is frowned upon because "students aren't supposed to want to earn rank."




Those are some very big generalisations.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 15, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Worse things happened with videos. My former organization and current one used to have videos of everything for each rank. Great idea, until people were learning from them and telling the teachers they were wrong. The best one was a guy telling the head of my former organization that he was wrong during a promotional test. He said to our head guy “the guy in the video said to do it like this.” Our head guy did all he could do to not strangle the student and said “do you know who the guy in the video is?” and walked away. That was the final straw - the unsold videos just went away. The student had no clue that the head guy was the guy in the video. Similar stuff happened in my current organization.





skribs said:


> I believe this is why my Master doesn't give these out much.  He wants people to come to class and learn from him, instead of using resources as an opportunity to skip class because they can study at home.
> 
> 
> 
> We've recently added a "new" set of forms to our curriculum, which are the official forms as standardized by our organization.  These are posted online, and I am finding them online so I can stay ahead of the students (since I am one of the instructors).  I've treated this as a homework project.  When I go to class, he checks my progress and then gives me his take on a few of the moves.  I go back and watch the videos, and I'd say probably 80% of his comments line up with the videos I've seen, and maybe 20% he's telling me something different.  I figure that the best course of action is to do what my Master says, and if later I go to a different school and they do it the way it is in the video, then I'll adjust.


The BJJ world is awash in instructional videos, whether it's clips from YouTube or lengthy in-depth video courses. Just about every upper belt I work with makes use of them, sometimes extensively. Plenty of the lower belts watch them as well.

I've never, ever seen or heard of a student in BJJ class correcting the teacher based on what they've seen in a video. (I'm not sure I've ever seen a BJJ student correct the teacher in class regardless, but definitely not based on a video.)

Perhaps it's because BJJ culture generally isn't hung up on one "right" way to do things. Those teachers in the videos all do things differently from each other. The instructors at my gym teach things differently from each other and from the instructors we learned from. 

I also don't think there's much of a problem with students skipping class because they have videos. You can watch video, but you don't get the benefits until you come to the gym and try the new material on the mats against your sparring partners.


----------



## skribs (May 15, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The BJJ world is awash in instructional videos, whether it's clips from YouTube or lengthy in-depth video courses. Just about every upper belt I work with makes use of them, sometimes extensively. Plenty of the lower belts watch them as well.
> 
> I've never, ever seen or heard of a student in BJJ class correcting the teacher based on what they've seen in a video. (I'm not sure I've ever seen a BJJ student correct the teacher in class regardless, but definitely not based on a video.)
> 
> ...



Except things like forms are very easy to practice without a partner.


----------



## dvcochran (May 15, 2019)

skribs said:


> Except things like forms are very easy to practice without a partner.


You can learn or brush up on the moves of a form from video but there is a lot you need to be in a class to learn.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 15, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> Those are some very big generalisations.


I read that as him saying it’s a problem when it happens, not that it generally happens. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding your post - I’m really tired, and the British accent throws me off.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 15, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The BJJ world is awash in instructional videos, whether it's clips from YouTube or lengthy in-depth video courses. Just about every upper belt I work with makes use of them, sometimes extensively. Plenty of the lower belts watch them as well.
> 
> I've never, ever seen or heard of a student in BJJ class correcting the teacher based on what they've seen in a video. (I'm not sure I've ever seen a BJJ student correct the teacher in class regardless, but definitely not based on a video.)
> 
> ...


I could see a problem with more classical arts. Instructors (many, not all) in NGA tend to have strong opinions about the right way to do the classical form of the formal techniques. Probably some of the same with kata in other arts. 

Take a video with strong opinions on something that’s not objective, and some students will start to have their own opinion, probably whatever the highest ranking person said.


----------



## skribs (May 15, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> You can learn or brush up on the moves of a form from video but there is a lot you need to be in a class to learn.



Depends on how standardized your forms are, and your attention to detail.


----------



## Tez3 (May 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I read that as him saying it’s a problem when it happens, not that it generally happens. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding your post - I’m really tired, and the British accent throws me off.




Wot, cos I talk proper like? 
(I may kill the next person I hear say 'like' at the end of a sentence, every sentence!)


----------



## dvcochran (May 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> Depends on how standardized your forms are, and your attention to detail.


Yes, the Taegueks are so simple they could almost entirely be learned from video. Not true for other color belt forms (Pyang Ahns, Palgwe)or the Yudanja poomsae.


----------



## skribs (May 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, the Taegueks are so simple they could almost entirely be learned from video. Not true for other color belt forms (Pyang Ahns, Palgwe)or the Yudanja poomsae.



Just because you can't doesn't mean others can't.


----------



## JR 137 (May 16, 2019)

Just because one can watch a video and practice them on their own doesn’t mean they can get good at them.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, the Taegueks are so simple they could almost entirely be learned from video. Not true for other color belt forms (Pyang Ahns, Palgwe)or the Yudanja poomsae.



Not really. The taeguek poomsae can be learned from video IF you have a background in similar forms. I did it, in a couple weeks. Because they're all built on the same underlying principals. By the same token, someone who has been properly taught the taeguek forms could learn those other form sets from video.
The taegeuk forms are not really any simpler than the palgwae, turtle, or yudanja forms. You may not personally care for them, but that doesn't change their utility.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (May 16, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Just because one can watch a video and practice them on their own doesn’t mean they can get good at them.



See i have seen a  lot of duality for practicing at home.    Both encouraging beginners and discouraging beginners from doing it at home.      I think the ones discouraging it just assume/presume you cant do it right.       Not really relevant but i just thought i would mention the duality of opinions on doing it at home, most people who are good practice a lot in their spare time however.

Just for the sake of knowing, can someone explain the utility of the mentioned forms?    Or quote me a post here if it exists on the utility of the forms.

As for the OP point, i honestly dont know why asking is frowned upon, you semi ask to be promoted in any field as you generally express a interest in getting higher responsibility, ask about what qualifications you need to do it, and want to put the effort in to attend any training you need on you part etc. Like you would have to say "i want to be promoted" to be promoted in the end otherwise you wont be/wont know what to do to be.        I suppose it might be demanding to grade, but there shouldn't be anything wrong with asking if you are ready and for the criteria for your belt to work on it.     You would be pretty annoyed if you got passed up for promotion in your job several times and you think you are ready and you didn't get a reason from your boss.         Might be the culture of where most of the belts come from, by that i mean the culture of the styles which use them, in part anyway.             I don't personally get it, i think its fine to ask and should be expected.


----------



## skribs (May 16, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Just because one can watch a video and practice them on their own doesn’t mean they can get good at them.



Taekwondo forms are primarily about replicating the technique of your Master or instructor.  Of any art's forms, these are the ones that are easiest to practice on your own and get good at.

I will agree with @Dirty Dog (for once), that knowledge of the forms and the general concepts of Taekwondo forms does help.  I will also say that it depends on several things:

Your ability to learn visually
Your attention to detail
The quality of the video you're watching
The accuracy of the video you're watching
I'm also not saying it's better or just as good as learning them in class (I actually think having both is the best), or that people should learn them this way.  But if I can watch several videos on Pyongwon Hyung and get 99% correct, that saves time in class.  Which is especially useful when I am one of two black belts that needs to learn the form, and we've got another 15-20 people in each class who need their forms.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 16, 2019)

Rat said:


> See i have seen a  lot of duality for practicing at home.    Both encouraging beginners and discouraging beginners from doing it at home.      I think the ones discouraging it just assume/presume you cant do it right.       Not really relevant but i just thought i would mention the duality of opinions on doing it at home, most people who are good practice a lot in their spare time however.



Beginners should practice what they've been taught. They'll get it part right and part wrong, and the mistakes can be corrected by their instructor until they eventually reach an acceptable level of competency. They shouldn't practice things they see on video but have not been taught. They'll likely get it all wrong and start ingraining bad habits that will take forever to correct.



> Just for the sake of knowing, can someone explain the utility of the mentioned forms?    Or quote me a post here if it exists on the utility of the forms.



The specific form sets mentioned all teach the same material, but in slightly different ways and in slightly different order. They all share the same roots.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> I will agree with @Dirty Dog (for once),



See? You're getting better. Someday you'll learn that you should agree with me all the time.


----------



## skribs (May 16, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> See? You're getting better. Someday you'll learn that you should agree with me all the time.



And I will.  When you start saying things I agree with all the time.


----------



## JR 137 (May 16, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Beginners should practice what they've been taught. They'll get it part right and part wrong, and the mistakes can be corrected by their instructor until they eventually reach an acceptable level of competency. They shouldn't practice things they see on video but have not been taught. They'll likely get it all wrong and start ingraining bad habits that will take forever to correct.
> 
> 
> 
> The specific form sets mentioned all teach the same material, but in slightly different ways and in slightly different order. They all share the same roots.


That was my point exactly. Videos are for reference, not teaching. Of course people should practice at home; it should be what they’ve been taught by their teacher(s). 

And teachers give feedback. Videos don’t. Can I learn a kata from a video? Sure. Can I get really good at it without feedback from a teacher? Depends on the kata and me. A beginner’s kata? Sure. An advanced kata? Nope.


----------



## skribs (May 16, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> The specific form sets mentioned all teach the same material, but in slightly different ways and in slightly different order. They all share the same roots.



I'd argue there are some more subtle differences than that.  We are just introducing the Taegeuks, and my Master has had to explain to our black belts that grew up with the Palgwes:

What a walking stance is ("no, that's not a cat stance")
Some of the footwork, especially in Taeguek #1
Variations between the traditional style of our stances in Palgwe and the modern stances used in Taegeuk (for example, the Taegeuk back stance is narrower, shorter, and the front leg is straighter).


----------



## skribs (May 16, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> That was my point exactly. Videos are for reference, not teaching. Of course people should practice at home; it should be what they’ve been taught by their teacher(s).
> 
> And teachers give feedback. Videos don’t. Can I learn a kata from a video? Sure. Can I get really good at it without feedback from a teacher? Depends on the kata and me. A beginner’s kata? Sure. An advanced kata? Nope.



Depends on the video.  When I learned Pyongwon, I watched videos of someone getting instruction during the Master's course, so I got all of the corrections vicariously.


----------



## JR 137 (May 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> Taekwondo forms are primarily about replicating the technique of your Master or instructor.  Of any art's forms, these are the ones that are easiest to practice on your own and get good at.
> 
> I will agree with @Dirty Dog (for once), that knowledge of the forms and the general concepts of Taekwondo forms does help.  I will also say that it depends on several things:
> 
> ...


Practice what your teacher teaches you is what I was saying. Video doesn’t give feedback. Teachers do. 

I practice my kata at home. But they were taught to me in the dojo. And I won’t practice them until I have them fully memorized. I made the mistake of practicing a kata at home that I learned that day. I did about 100 times. And I was wrong all 100 times. It took a good 500 times the right way to stop me from making the same stupid mistake.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> I'd argue there are some more subtle differences than that.  We are just introducing the Taegeuks, and my Master has had to explain to our black belts that grew up with the Palgwes:
> 
> What a walking stance is ("no, that's not a cat stance")
> Some of the footwork, especially in Taeguek #1
> Variations between the traditional style of our stances in Palgwe and the modern stances used in Taegeuk (for example, the Taegeuk back stance is narrower, shorter, and the front leg is straighter).



I wouldn't consider those particularly subtle. And they're absolutely things you can learn from video, assuming you're familiar enough with the related forms, and observant enough to note the differences in the stances. Or smart enough to look at videos that teach the stances before you start looking at the ones that teach the forms.


----------



## JR 137 (May 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> Depends on the video.  When I learned Pyongwon, I watched videos of someone getting instruction during the Master's course, so I got all of the corrections vicariously.


Which kata is that? Comparable to Pinan 1? It’s a beginner’s kata, so if you’ve got a bit of experience it’s fine. If you’re self taught, chances are pretty high you’re doing things wrong. 

My former teacher started learning weapons through video. He was revamping the syllabus and basically threw out the old weapons stuff. Being a 4th dan with about 20 years experience, he still made mistakes. He met up with a teacher under the person who made the videos. His mistakes were minor corrections/adjustments and it was more fine tuning than anything else, but he was making mistakes. Video doesn’t correct, teachers do.


----------



## skribs (May 16, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I wouldn't consider those particularly subtle. And they're absolutely things you can learn from video, assuming you're familiar enough with the related forms, and observant enough to note the differences in the stances. Or smart enough to look at videos that teach the stances before you start looking at the ones that teach the forms.



This is one of those things where because of an assumption I had (that I knew a back stance) I did not assume I needed instruction in how to do a back stance.

You're reminding me of a conversation I had with an old supervisor of mine (I promise it will come back to what you said).

*Situation:*  Customer had asked for a service to be done in a timeline we couldn't deliver.  Wanted to drop something off just before COB on Friday and wanted it done before the weekend.  They had a mobile phone, which worked as a mobile phone, but they needed company email on it as well.  I told them if it was dropped off COB on Friday, they could get it Monday at noon, or they could keep it over the weekend to at least have the phone features, drop it off on Monday, and then get it back Monday afternoon.  They said they'd drop it off Monday.

*Ten minutes later*, my boss comes into my office yelling at me.  The customer (who had left smiling and agreeable) went to my boss and said "Skribs wouldn't help us and he wouldn't tell us why!"  My boss, assumed the customer was completely correct, and started berating me.  Apparently, even though the issue appeared to be handled, I should have escalated the issue to her to deal with.

*Circling back:* this is why your post reminded me of it.  I didn't think there was an issue with my back stance, just like I didn't think there was an issue with this customer.

I do agree that if I am making videos on forms, the first thing I cover in each form would be the stances you would see.  Then I'd cover the techniques as we get to them.


----------



## skribs (May 16, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Which kata is that? Comparable to Pinan 1? It’s a beginner’s kata, so if you’ve got a bit of experience it’s fine. If you’re self taught, chances are pretty high you’re doing things wrong.
> 
> My former teacher started learning weapons through video. He was revamping the syllabus and basically threw out the old weapons stuff. Being a 4th dan with about 20 years experience, he still made mistakes. He met up with a teacher under the person who made the videos. His mistakes were minor corrections/adjustments and it was more fine tuning than anything else, but he was making mistakes. Video doesn’t correct, teachers do.



That's the 4th degree black belt form.  Not comparable to a beginner's kata.


----------



## JR 137 (May 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> That's the 4th degree black belt form.  Not comparable to a beginner's kata.


The weapons forms weren’t all 4th dan stuff. Most were colored belt (separate weapons ranks) stuff. Edit: kata, solo drills, and partner drills. 

Or if you’re referring to Pinan 1, it’s typically the first form taught to adults in Shotokan at white belt.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 16, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> The weapons forms weren’t all 4th dan stuff. Most were colored belt (separate weapons ranks) stuff. Edit: kata, solo drills, and partner drills.
> 
> Or if you’re referring to Pinan 1, it’s typically the first form taught to adults in Shotokan at white belt.



I believe he was refering to Pyongwon, which is the form learned by 4th Dans in KKW TKD, or 3rd Dans in MDK TKD.


----------



## dvcochran (May 16, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not really. The taeguek poomsae can be learned from video IF you have a background in similar forms. I did it, in a couple weeks. Because they're all built on the same underlying principals. By the same token, someone who has been properly taught the taeguek forms could learn those other form sets from video.
> The taegeuk forms are not really any simpler than the palgwae, turtle, or yudanja forms. You may not personally care for them, but that doesn't change their utility.


You make my point that someone with experience can learn the Taegueks in a short amount of time. There is very little footwork and stance/base taught by them. Little to no balance and strength training them. They have value for people who compete in WT tourneys by virtue of having no other choice. There is a ton of fundamental material not taught by the Taegueks. If an unknowing student never experiences anything other than a purely WT school they have no way of understanding what they are missing. 
Do I know the Taegueks? Yes, as a school with WT/Kukkiwon on the windows we teach them. Fortunately we are much deeper in our base of training.


----------



## dvcochran (May 16, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I believe he was refering to Pyongwon, which is the form learned by 4th Dans in KKW TKD, or 3rd Dans in MDK TKD.


@Dirty Dog , are there any differences in the 3rd MDK version?


----------



## dvcochran (May 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> Just because you can't doesn't mean others can't.


Have no idea what you are saying; just like the issue you had with a customer, you need to work on your communication skills.


----------



## skribs (May 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Have no idea what you are saying; just like the issue you had with a customer, you need to work on your communication skills.



Ha.  Hahahahahaha!

My communication skills (as voiced by my coworkers who were present for both interactions) were fine.  The problem was that the customer went and stabbed me in the back after we'd agreed to a solution to his problem.

So I'll spell it out for you - I was able to learn the Palgwes by watching them, with no instruction on how to do them (it was a little bit different than watching them on Youtube, but basically the same as what I experienced).  You say it's impossible, and yet here we are.  I did it.  It is not impossible.

The only thing I can think of, then, is that you were unable to do it, and thus deemed it impossible.  Even though it is possible.


----------



## skribs (May 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> You make my point that someone with experience can learn the Taegueks in a short amount of time. There is very little footwork and stance/base taught by them. Little to no balance and strength training them. They have value for people who compete in WT tourneys by virtue of having no other choice. There is a ton of fundamental material not taught by the Taegueks. If an unknowing student never experiences anything other than a purely WT school they have no way of understanding what they are missing.
> Do I know the Taegueks? Yes, as a school with WT/Kukkiwon on the windows we teach them. Fortunately we are much deeper in our base of training.



Aside from deeper stances, there's not much different between the Palgwes and the Taegeuks, and I'd argue the Taegeuks are more particular about the stances and footwork than the Palgwes are.


----------



## dvcochran (May 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> Ha.  Hahahahahaha!
> 
> My communication skills (as voiced by my coworkers who were present for both interactions) were fine.  The problem was that the customer went and stabbed me in the back after we'd agreed to a solution to his problem.
> 
> ...


Never said, whatever you are talking about, is impossible. Misspeaking what someone else says because it fits your incorrect version of the truth is part of your poor communication skills


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 16, 2019)

Rat said:


> See i have seen a  lot of duality for practicing at home.    Both encouraging beginners and discouraging beginners from doing it at home.      I think the ones discouraging it just assume/presume you cant do it right.       Not really relevant but i just thought i would mention the duality of opinions on doing it at home, most people who are good practice a lot in their spare time however.
> 
> Just for the sake of knowing, can someone explain the utility of the mentioned forms?    Or quote me a post here if it exists on the utility of the forms.


Your closing question in this section is part of the key. Another - as folks have noted here and in other threads where this came up - whether you already have related experience. I can learn throws from Judo videos, because I have relevant similar experience (I know the principles involved and can already apply them). With forms, it also depends whether the form is just for forms' sake, or is being used functionally. I could probably manage some Karate forms from a video, and someone without experience in Karate forms might think I'd learned them well. But I might entirely miss the principles the form is meant to teach/support/practice, and would thereby have just memorized some dance moves. Now, take one of these guys who have done similar forms, and they are more likely to be able to figure out/see the principles intended in a form.

That is all quite different from a beginner - without a proper foundation to work from - trying to figure it out.


----------



## skribs (May 16, 2019)

@dvcochran so you never said this?



> Yes, the Taegueks are so simple they could almost entirely be learned from video. Not true for other color belt forms (Pyang Ahns, Palgwe)or the Yudanja poomsae.


----------



## dvcochran (May 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> @dvcochran so you never said this?


Where in that does it say impossible? Again, you are trying very childishly to make reality fit your incorrect version.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> You make my point that someone with experience can learn the Taegueks in a short amount of time.



No. I make the point that anyone familiar with one set of forms can learn a related/similar set easily, and even from video. Someone trained in the taegeuk poomsae would have no difficulty learning the palgwae or pyong ahn forms from video in a very short time.



dvcochran said:


> @Dirty Dog , are there any differences in the 3rd MDK version?



No. The forms are just learned sooner. In KKW TKD, you start Koryo after reaching 1st Dan. In the MDK you learn Koryo in order to reach 1st Dan. Actually, you learn it to reach Chodanbo, but are graded to a high standard to reach 1st Dan. So all the black belt forms are learned one rank earlier.


----------



## dvcochran (May 16, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> No. I make the point that anyone familiar with one set of forms can learn a related/similar set easily, and even from video. Someone trained in the taegeuk poomsae would have no difficulty learning the palgwae or pyong ahn forms from video in a very short time.
> 
> 
> 
> No. The forms are just learned sooner. In KKW TKD, you start Koryo after reaching 1st Dan. In the MDK you learn Koryo in order to reach 1st Dan. Actually, you learn it to reach Chodanbo, but are graded to a high standard to reach 1st Dan. So all the black belt forms are learned one rank earlier.


Does that mean you do not use Batsai Dai for 1st Dan testing?


----------



## skribs (May 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Where in that does it say impossible? Again, you are trying very childishly to make reality fit your incorrect version.



You didn't say the word "impossible."  But when you say you can do one thing, and it's not true for another thing, that means the other thing is impossible.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Does that mean you do not use Batsai Dai for 1st Dan testing?



No. As I have said before, we use the palgwae forms for our primary forms. Students who want KKW certification also learn the taegeuks. The yudanja forms are used after that. I also practice the chang hon tul and will teach them to interested students, but these are never mandatory.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 17, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> No. As I have said before, we use the palgwae forms for our primary forms. Students who want KKW certification also learn the taegeuks. The yudanja forms are used after that. I also practice the chang hon tul and will teach them to interested students, but these are never mandatory.


Point of order: yudanja is a a form of address for a group of black belt holders. Yugeupja for colour belts. The term yudanja for a poomsae / form set is not really clear because it just means "black belter's". I take it  you are using it to mean Koryeo, Geumgang, Taebaek etc? 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## JR 137 (May 17, 2019)

skribs said:


> You didn't say the word "impossible."  But when you say you can do one thing, and it's not true for another thing, that means the other thing is impossible.


Not to speak for someone else, but I didn’t interpret what he said as it’s impossible.

“Yes, the Taegueks are so simple they could almost entirely be learned from video. Not true for other color belt forms (Pyang Ahns, Palgwe)or the Yudanja poonsae.”

To me, that says the Teagueks are very easy and can be learned from video, whereas the others aren’t so simple. Learning them through video would be significantly more difficult.

No where did I interpret they nor anything else is impossible. Impossible is a bit too strong of a word here.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 17, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Not to speak for someone else, but I didn’t interpret what he said as it’s impossible.
> 
> “Yes, the Taegueks are so simple they could almost entirely be learned from video. Not true for other color belt forms (Pyang Ahns, Palgwe)or the Yudanja poonsae.”
> 
> ...


I read it as being more or less impossible. The Taegueks are simple, so could be learned from video. That is not true of the others. (Thus, it is not possible to learn them from videos.)

That you and I read it so differently might mean there's a significant amount of miscommunication in this argument.


----------



## dvcochran (May 17, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> No. As I have said before, we use the palgwae forms for our primary forms. Students who want KKW certification also learn the taegeuks. The yudanja forms are used after that. I also practice the chang hon tul and will teach them to interested students, but these are never mandatory.


Our color belt form sets are the Kicho Hyung 1-3 ,Pyong Ahn's and Palgwe's and then Batsai Dai for 1st Dan. We do not introduce the Palgwe's until green belt so there are some that will not be learned until after BB. Depends on the student. Same for the Taeguek's. They are mostly learned after 1st BB as a supplement.


----------



## skribs (May 17, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Our color belt form sets are the Kicho Hyung 1-3 ,Pyong Ahn's and Palgwe's and then Batsai Dai for 1st Dan. We do not introduce the Palgwe's until green belt so there are some that will not be learned until after BB. Depends on the student. Same for the Taeguek's. They are mostly learned after 1st BB as a supplement.



That's why the Taegeuks seem simple to you.  Because you are learning forms of similar complexity, but later in your grading.


----------



## dvcochran (May 17, 2019)

skribs said:


> That's why the Taegeuks seem simple to you.  Because you are learning forms of similar complexity, but later in your grading.


Oh, it is not just me who has this opinion.


----------



## dvcochran (May 17, 2019)

skribs said:


> You didn't say the word "impossible."  But when you say you can do one thing, and it's not true for another thing, that means the other thing is impossible.


That is simply not correct, makes Zero sense, and, again you are trying to twist a non-truth into what You want it to be. Very immature.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Jun 23, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> Those are some very big generalisations.


Yes I would say its a big generalization but it is the position that some people at least give the impression that they take.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 12, 2019)

So I can see how asking, "Can I test?" might not be a good thing to ask an instructor. So instead of asking, "Can I test?" how about asking, "Why haven't I been told I can test?"


----------



## skribs (Oct 12, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> So I can see how asking, "Can I test?" might not be a good thing to ask an instructor. So instead of asking, "Can I test?" how about asking, "Why haven't I been told I can test?"



Why are you necroing this thread?


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 12, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> So I can see how asking, "Can I test?" might not be a good thing to ask an instructor. So instead of asking, "Can I test?" how about asking, "Why haven't I been told I can test?"


What is the difference?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 14, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> So I can see how asking, "Can I test?" might not be a good thing to ask an instructor. So instead of asking, "Can I test?" how about asking, "Why haven't I been told I can test?"


A better question might be, "What do I need to do to be ready to test?"


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 14, 2019)

skribs said:


> Why are you necroing this thread?


Why not? If you don't like it you don't have to read it.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 14, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> What is the difference?


Here is the difference, when you ask why you're not testing you're asking for feedback on what you need to work on, how you need to improve, so that you can test. When you just ask if you can test you're not asking for any such feedback and it might even come across as a challenge to your instructor's judgement. The instructor has better judgement than you on whether or not you're ready to test and that's what makes him the instructor and you the student, so if he's not letting you test he has his reasons and as a student I would trust his better judgement, but I would like to know why Im not testing, so I know what I need to work on to meet his standards and hopefully test the next time.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 14, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> A better question might be, "What do I need to do to be ready to test?"


Yes that is exactly what I was trying to say in post #170 and you say it perhaps better than I do.


----------



## skribs (Oct 14, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Why not? If you don't like it you don't have to read it.



Because it's bad manners on an internet forum to resurrect a post where the discussion has died.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 14, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Here is the difference, when you ask why you're not testing you're asking for feedback on what you need to work on, how you need to improve, so that you can test. When you just ask if you can test you're not asking for any such feedback and it might even come across as a challenge to your instructor's judgement. The instructor has better judgement than you on whether or not you're ready to test and that's what makes him the instructor and you the student, so if he's not letting you test he has his reasons and as a student I would trust his better judgement, but I would like to know why Im not testing, so I know what I need to work on to meet his standards and hopefully test the next time.


I agree, but if you don't think an instructor work their salt doesn't hear the implication whichever way you ask the question, you would be incorrect. It is semantics at best.
I had to go back and re-read the OP.  So what is your real question? I get the sense there is more to the post.


----------



## geezer (Oct 15, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> There has been talk here before, that when it comes to testing for rank, asking your instructor "can I test?" has been frowned upon as being disrespectful.
> 
> So how about this, what if it's taking you longer to test than you expected?



Photon, I just went back to re-read the OP quoted above and here's my 2 cents:

I was was in a similar situation several years ago. it had been a while since I'd been promoted and I was concerned.  However, unlike you, I do not have much difficulty talking to my instructor. At a quiet time, I pulled him aside and told him that I was quite serious about furthering my training and would appreciate it if he would give me any suggestions about what I could do to reach the next level. He wasn't offended at all and told me that he would keep it in mind. 

A few more years passed and last year (Summer 2018) I tested and earned my next rank. Although it took me a total of 32 years to move up a rank , it only took me barely ten or eleven years training with _him_ to get promoted, and only three more years after our conversation!

So you see, a simple conversation, some hard work, and I'm sure you too can get promoted within 10 -30 years. So why all the worry?


----------



## skribs (Oct 15, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Here is the difference, when you ask why you're not testing you're asking for feedback on what you need to work on, how you need to improve, so that you can test. When you just ask if you can test you're not asking for any such feedback and it might even come across as a challenge to your instructor's judgement. The instructor has better judgement than you on whether or not you're ready to test and that's what makes him the instructor and you the student, so if he's not letting you test he has his reasons and as a student I would trust his better judgement, but I would like to know why Im not testing, so I know what I need to work on to meet his standards and hopefully test the next time.



But that depends on the expectations of the instructor.  At my dojang, adults are expected to know what's on the test, and to know when they're ready to test.  It is your own responsibility to ask.  In this case, you aren't challenging the Master, because he has passed the responsibility onto the student.  If you haven't tested, it's not because the Master hasn't invited you, it's because you haven't asked.

On the other hand, if you ask if you can test, and he says "I'll check you next class", then if he says you aren't ready, you aren't ready.  At that point, it's okay to ask.

Even with the kids, where tests are mostly by invitation, it's okay for a kid to *ask *him.  It's not that they're arguing that he's graded them incorrectly.  It's that we've got probably 150+ kids in our dojang, and it's difficult to properly assess them all during the pre-testing weeks.  Sometimes a kid misses a class when we would have seen him, sometimes we just skip over a kid because we think he just got his belt, so he's probably not ready, and he surprises us.  Sometimes a kid isn't ready, but really wants his belt, and the conversation turns to what he needs to be able to do in order to test, and they make the extra effort to.

There are a lot of situations, whether your tests are by request or by invite, that it is not an insult to the Master.  Sometimes, they're waiting for the "I think I'm ready" before they begin a serious evaluation.  

It all depends on the culture of your school, and isn't something universal you're going to find on a generic martial art forum.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 15, 2019)

geezer said:


> Photon, I just went back to re-read the OP quoted above and here's my 2 cents:
> 
> I was was in a similar situation several years ago. it had been a while since I'd been promoted and I was concerned.  However, unlike you, I do not have much difficulty talking to my instructor. At a quiet time, I pulled him aside and told him that I was quite serious about furthering my training and would appreciate it if he would give me any suggestions about what I could do to reach the next level. He wasn't offended at all and told me that he would keep it in mind.
> 
> ...


Man oh man do I love this post. It speaks volumes to the degree it takes to acquire something of value.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 15, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes that is exactly what I was trying to say in post #170 and you say it perhaps better than I do.


Since you like this version, let me point out what's different about it. I made it about me - what I need to change. The question you proposed could be taken as being about the instructor, the school, the curriculum, or anything else. An important part of communication (and etiquette) is looking for ways to minimize misunderstanding.

So we were both asking the same question. My version simply makes it clearer what the question is.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 15, 2019)

skribs said:


> Because it's bad manners on an internet forum to resurrect a post where the discussion has died.


No, I don’t think it is.


----------



## skribs (Oct 15, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> No, I don’t think it is.



You would be incorrect.  Necro-posting is generally taboo.  Usually if you want to rehash a discussion, you open a new one.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 15, 2019)

skribs said:


> You would be incorrect.  Necro-posting is generally taboo.  Usually if you want to rehash a discussion, you open a new one.


That’s true in principle. In application, what qualifies as a “necro” varies a lot. In this case, the thread hasn’t been quiet all that long, and the OP still has comments. It would be confusing to start a new thread.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 15, 2019)

skribs said:


> You would be incorrect.  Necro-posting is generally taboo.  Usually if you want to rehash a discussion, you open a new one.


Says who?  There is nothing wrong with necro-posting.  It doesn’t break a taboo, that’s nonsense.  

Depending on how old it is, the original participants may be long gone, but new people might pick up the discussion.  

This thread isn’t even that old, who is to say it’s even dead?


----------



## skribs (Oct 15, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Says who?  There is nothing wrong with necro-posting.  It doesn’t break a taboo, that’s nonsense.
> 
> Depending on how old it is, the original participants may be long gone, but new people might pick up the discussion.
> 
> This thread isn’t even that old, who is to say it’s even dead?



Says every forum I've ever been on?

And I've been on a *lot* of forums.  I have more experience in forums than I do martial arts.  (14 years on forums, 13 years of martial arts).


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 15, 2019)

skribs said:


> Says every forum I've ever been on?
> 
> And I've been on a *lot* of forums.  I have more experience in forums than I do martial arts.  (14 years on forums, 13 years of martial arts).


Well, you are wrong about this one.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That’s true in principle. In application, what qualifies as a “necro” varies a lot. In this case, the thread hasn’t been quiet all that long, and the OP still has comments. It would be confusing to start a new thread.


If it is a dead post, why can't it be called a "dead post"? Necro (necrotic) creeps me out and I always think of dead body tissue like we usually see when we have to do an autopsy. It baffles me how words get used sometimes.


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> If it is a dead post, why can't it be called a "dead post"? Necro (necrotic) creeps me out and I always think of dead body tissue like we usually see when we have to do an autopsy. It baffles me how words get used sometimes.



I thought it was more like necromancy, where you're resurrecting a dead post.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2019)

I think I’m going to go resurrect a few old threads that might get some new discussion.


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That’s true in principle. In application, what qualifies as a “necro” varies a lot. In this case, the thread hasn’t been quiet all that long, and the OP still has comments. It would be confusing to start a new thread.



This is a rare case where I disagree with you.  It was over 3 months gone, and the OP didn't seem to add much with his comment.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> This is a rare case where I disagree with you.  It was over 3 months gone, and the OP didn't seem to add much with his comment.


Doesn’t matter.


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I think I’m going to go resurrect a few old threads that might get some new discussion.



Are you a teenager?  That's the kind of response I'd expect from a teenager.  The reaction of someone in their terrible twos, but with enough strategic thinking to go above and beyond in their defiance of a rule.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> Are you a teenager?  That's the kind of response I'd expect from a teenager.  The reaction of someone in their terrible twos, but with enough strategic thinking to go above and beyond in their defiance of a rule.


Just resurrected one of your threads.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> This is a rare case where I disagree with you.  It was over 3 months gone, and the OP didn't seem to add much with his comment.


He still seems to want to discuss. If he started a new thread, it would need a link to this thread for reference. It seems easier to simply continue where we are.

The most common objection to necroing a thread (in most forums I've been in) is either that the necro replies to someone who's no longer active, the thread is no longer applicable (as with tech threads from years ago),  or the new poster started a new discussion rather than continuing the existing one.


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> He still seems to want to discuss. If he started a new thread, it would need a link to this thread for reference. It seems easier to simply continue where we are.
> 
> The most common objection to necroing a thread (in most forums I've been in) is either that the necro replies to someone who's no longer active, the thread is no longer applicable (as with tech threads from years ago),  or the new poster started a new discussion rather than continuing the existing one.



There are a few more.  Most people have moved on from the conversation.  A new conversation is a new thread.  Especially one that's already on page 9 or 10.  People who weren't here the first time don't want to read through 9 or 10 pages to get to the discussion.  So it mostly limits the discussion to those who are willing to come back to the thread, who were part of it before.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> I thought it was more like necromancy, where you're resurrecting a dead post.


I have no clue. The Urban Dictionary says Necromancy is black magic performed by black people. 
What the heck does that mean?


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I have no clue. The Urban Dictionary says Necromancy is black magic performed by black people.
> What the heck does that mean?



I was thinking more like the necromancers from D&D and video games like Diablo 2.  They're usually quite pale.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> Because it's bad manners on an internet forum to resurrect a post where the discussion has died.


I've seen people do it before. I've seen people bring back posts much older than this one. It makes more sense to resurrect an old post than to start a new post of the same or similar subject. As for it being bad manners, life is too short to get worked up over internet posts.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I agree, but if you don't think an instructor work their salt doesn't hear the implication whichever way you ask the question, you would be incorrect. It is semantics at best.
> I had to go back and re-read the OP.  So what is your real question? I get the sense there is more to the post.


You're right, it is semantics. Gpseymour said it best in post #173. My question would be, would it be frowned on to ask such a question to your instructor and of so, why?


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 16, 2019)

geezer said:


> Photon, I just went back to re-read the OP quoted above and here's my 2 cents:
> 
> I was was in a similar situation several years ago. it had been a while since I'd been promoted and I was concerned.  However, unlike you, I do not have much difficulty talking to my instructor. At a quiet time, I pulled him aside and told him that I was quite serious about furthering my training and would appreciate it if he would give me any suggestions about what I could do to reach the next level. He wasn't offended at all and told me that he would keep it in mind.
> 
> ...


That depends on how long you want it to take you. For the time frame that you mention, 10-30 years, might be an appropriate time frame when we're talking about very high dan ranks. When you get to that level it can take 10-30 years to go up a single rank, but that would be for ranks such as 5th dan and above. For lower ranks, 10-30 years to get promoted a single rank is a bit much. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Since you like this version, let me point out what's different about it. I made it about me - what I need to change. The question you proposed could be taken as being about the instructor, the school, the curriculum, or anything else. An important part of communication (and etiquette) is looking for ways to minimize misunderstanding.
> 
> So we were both asking the same question. My version simply makes it clearer what the question is.


Of course it would be about me and how I need to improve. I wouldn't expect the instructor or the school or curriculum to change to meet my expectations, its the other way around. I would never want an instructor to lower their standards to my current level, that would be a very bad instructor. I would want to be able to raise my current level to meet my instructor's standards and if necessary that might involve getting pointers from my instructor.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> You would be incorrect.  Necro-posting is generally taboo.  Usually if you want to rehash a discussion, you open a new one.


I've done that before and from my experience its frowned upon in this forum.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 16, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I think I’m going to go resurrect a few old threads that might get some new discussion.


If you think that will work, go for it. From my experience, it works for me.


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've done that before and from my experience its frowned upon in this forum.



If it's an old discussion that's different than re-opening a thread that's still active.



> I've seen people do it before. I've seen people bring back posts much older than this one. It makes more sense to resurrect an old post than to start a new post of the same or similar subject. As for it being bad manners, life is too short to get worked up over internet posts.



So because life's short, bad manners are okay?  Because other people do it, that makes it okay?

My goodness, it's teenager attitudes all around on this forum today.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> If it's an old discussion that's different than re-opening a thread that's still active.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s not bad manners.  Let it go.


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> It’s not bad manners.  Let it go.



You're flat out wrong here.  I've never been on a forum where it's good manners.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> You're flat out wrong here.  I've never been on a forum where it's good manners.


Bad manners is attempting to dictate to other members what discussions they are allowed to have.  These old threads are not closed nor locked.  They are open to new posts.  Anyone can add to them.  If you don’t want to play, then don’t.  Don’t read them, don’t post to them.   

But go ahead and try to stop me.  Just try.


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Bad manners is attempting to dictate to other members what discussions they are allowed to have.  These old threads are not closed nor locked.  They are open to new posts.  Anyone can add to them.  If you don’t want to play, then don’t.  Don’t read them, don’t post to them.
> 
> But go ahead and try to stop me.  Just try.



So when someone says it's bad manners to do something, and you do it to them out of spite, you don't see how that's not bad manners?

I take back what I said about acting like a teenager.  Now you're just acting like a 2-year-old.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 16, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> You're right, it is semantics. Gpseymour said it best in post #173. My question would be, would it be frowned on to ask such a question to your instructor and of so, why?


For me, if you just walked up cold and asked "why haven't I tested" that would be bad form. There is usually at least a loose format of what is required for each promotion. If you feel certain you can check all the boxes and can respectfully argue your case then have a talk with your instructor. If they are unapproachable that may be difficult. 
You should walk away with either an answer in the affirmative or a good explanation of why not and what you need to work on.  
Either way, if done properly, it will be a good experience regardless of the answer. There is an emotional/maturation component at work here.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> You're flat out wrong here.  I've never been on a forum where it's good manners.


You cannot say that anymore.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 16, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've seen people do it before. I've seen people bring back posts much older than this one. It makes more sense to resurrect an old post than to start a new post of the same or similar subject. As for it being bad manners, life is too short to get worked up over internet posts.


When you fat finger type like I do, the less typing required the better.


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> You cannot say that anymore.



Just because people do it, doesn't mean it's not bad manners.  If this truly is the case, I'll probably be done here.  I've been on Martial Talk because I considered it the more civilized of the Martial Arts forums.  Based on this discussion here, and several others I've had recently, I'm starting to think of this site as being just as toxic as the others I've been avoiding.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> So when someone says it's bad manners to do something, and you do it to them out of spite, you don't see how that's not bad manners?
> 
> I take back what I said about acting like a teenager.  Now you're just acting like a 2-year-old.


I’m doing it because it is not bad manners and it is perfectly ok to do it.  That you think it’s bad manners is your problem, not mine.

You are getting all worked up over this.  Really, it doesn’t matter.  Let it go.  Look the other way, if it bothers you.


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m doing it because it is not bad manners and it is perfectly ok to do it.  That you think it’s bad manners is your problem, not mine.
> 
> You are getting all worked up over this.  Really, it doesn’t matter.  Let it go.  Look the other way, if it bothers you.



If you tell me something bothers you, and I do it anyway, that's an aggressive move.  You and I had a difference of opinion.  That's one thing.  That you then did that thing to me, makes it a personal attack.

Whether or not you think it's bad manners is irrelevant at that point.  You did it to my post specifically out of spite.  That is definitely bad manners.  Whether or not you think the act itself was bad form, the fact you know I find it offensive and did it to me anyway, is offensive.  It's the equivalent of sticking your tongue out at me because "haha look what I can do." 

It was the kind of thing I see in our 4 and 5 year old white belts.  It's not the kind of thing I'd expect a seasoned martial artist to do.


----------



## geezer (Oct 16, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> ...For lower ranks, 10-30 years to get promoted a single rank is a bit much. Just my 2 cents.



Easy for you to say. I'm a slow learner.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> Just because people do it, doesn't mean it's not bad manners.  If this truly is the case, I'll probably be done here.  I've been on Martial Talk because I considered it the more civilized of the Martial Arts forums.  Based on this discussion here, and several others I've had recently, I'm starting to think of this site as being just as toxic as the others I've been avoiding.


Please explain to us why doing a copy/paste and expounding on it to stimulate more conversation is bad manners?
We are all here for largely the same reasons. It is a Martial themed forum. If somebody steps on your toes maybe they need stepping on. It is never a personal attack but it may help you grow and expand your horizons. How is that bad?


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Please explain to us why doing a copy/paste and expounding on it to stimulate more conversation is bad manners?
> We are all here for largely the same reasons. It is a Martial themed forum. If somebody steps on your toes maybe they need stepping on. It is never a personal attack but it may help you grow and expand your horizons. How is that bad?



That's not what we're even discussing.

We're discussing taking a thread where the conversation has died, and posting in the thread to bring it back to life.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> That's not what we're even discussing.
> 
> We're discussing taking a thread where the conversation has died, and posting in the thread to bring it back to life.


Ok, what is wrong with that? If you posted something last year and recall that it is relevant to a current post why not reuse your previous argument? 
I have no clue what the rub is here. I just hate to see anyone leave the forum for petty reasons.


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Ok, what is wrong with that? If you posted something last year and recall that it is relevant to a current post why not reuse your previous argument?
> I have no clue what the rub is here. I just hate to see anyone leave the forum for petty reasons.



That's not what we're talking about.  What you're talking about is fine.

What we're talking about is taking the entire thread that had died, and posting in it to bring it back.  Not copy-pasting from a dead threat something that is relevant to a new thread.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> That's not what we're talking about.  What you're talking about is fine.
> 
> What we're talking about is taking the entire thread that had died, and posting in it to bring it back.  Not copy-pasting from a dead threat something that is relevant to a new thread.


I read through all of these, but I'm also not sure what the issue is. If someone has a new thought that pertains to an old thread, I don't see any issue with posting on it. It happens on this site probably a couple times a month. Also happened on other forums that I've been a part of in the past, and I can't recall it ever causing any huge issues (only exception is when the topic of the thread is no longer relevant due to the passage of time, but that's less likely to happen here). 

But either way, all of this is off topic, and we should probably bringing it back to the topic at hand if any of us have anything to input. Reading through I saw a few posts on the actual topic but they seem to be getting lost in the necropost discussion.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> If you tell me something bothers you, and I do it anyway, that's an aggressive move.  You and I had a difference of opinion.  That's one thing.  That you then did that thing to me, makes it a personal attack.
> 
> Whether or not you think it's bad manners is irrelevant at that point.  You did it to my post specifically out of spite.  That is definitely bad manners.  Whether or not you think the act itself was bad form, the fact you know I find it offensive and did it to me anyway, is offensive.  It's the equivalent of sticking your tongue out at me because "haha look what I can do."
> 
> It was the kind of thing I see in our 4 and 5 year old white belts.  It's not the kind of thing I'd expect a seasoned martial artist to do.


Jeezuz man, photonguy contributed to an old post and you took offense to the very fact that he made the post.  You claimed it to be bad manners, even called it taboo.  

It isn’t.  End of story.  

Sure, we rub each other, hassle each other from time to time.  I posted to another old thread just because you said I’m not supposed to.  It’s done in good humor.  But I’m trying really hard now to think of something that is less worth arguing over on this forum, than whether or not posting to old threads is taboo or bad manners.  I can’t come up with anything.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2019)

From time to time, out of boredom, I look through old threads to see if something is worth bringing back up, if maybe I have something to add to it.  I think it is interesting to do it.  I won’t stop.  It ain’t no big deal.


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I read through all of these, but I'm also not sure what the issue is. If someone has a new thought that pertains to an old thread, I don't see any issue with posting on it. It happens on this site probably a couple times a month. Also happened on other forums that I've been a part of in the past, and I can't recall it ever causing any huge issues (only exception is when the topic of the thread is no longer relevant due to the passage of time, but that's less likely to happen here).
> 
> But either way, all of this is off topic, and we should probably bringing it back to the topic at hand if any of us have anything to input. Reading through I saw a few posts on the actual topic but they seem to be getting lost in the necropost discussion.



Because now any newcomers to the discussion have to read through pages and pages of the discussion.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> Because now any newcomers to the discussion have to read through pages and pages of the discussion.


Is that an issue? Personally I've waited for threads to continue for a bit, then read it all at once. And everyone still has the choice-they don't have to read the discussion if they don't want to, or they can just skip to the last few pages. 

With this thread being an exception, as focusing on the last few pages will just result in them reading about thread necro arguments, instead of anything related to the topic of the thread.


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Is that an issue? Personally I've waited for threads to continue for a bit, then read it all at once. And everyone still has the choice-they don't have to read the discussion if they don't want to, or they can just skip to the last few pages.
> 
> With this thread being an exception, as focusing on the last few pages will just result in them reading about thread necro arguments, instead of anything related to the topic of the thread.



That's the thing.  A lot of threads have side conversations and other things that distract.  Most threads I skip to the end and a lot of it is an argument about this, that, or the other.  

Or you get people who just respond to the OP and ignore the rest of the conversation, because they don't want to bother catching up on the thread.  (That's what happened in the other post that got necro'd).

The general idea, however, is that the discussion is done.  If it's sat for three months, there isn't much left to discuss, as the members of that thread didn't add anything to it.

This is all why it should be a new post.  Start fresh, let everyone enter the conversation without being behind or skipping ahead.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> That's the thing.  A lot of threads have side conversations and other things that distract.  Most threads I skip to the end and a lot of it is an argument about this, that, or the other.
> 
> Or you get people who just respond to the OP and ignore the rest of the conversation, because they don't want to bother catching up on the thread.  (That's what happened in the other post that got necro'd).
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your opinion on the matter.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> Just because people do it, doesn't mean it's not bad manners.  If this truly is the case, I'll probably be done here.  I've been on Martial Talk because I considered it the more civilized of the Martial Arts forums.  Based on this discussion here, and several others I've had recently, I'm starting to think of this site as being just as toxic as the others I've been avoiding.


C'mon man (or woman, I do not know which applies), that is being pretty small. This is a worldwide forum with many, many different mindsets. There is no reason to be thinned skin. I think it will help if you step back and look at the bigger picture.


----------



## geezer (Oct 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> The general idea, however, is that the discussion is done.  If it's sat for three months, there isn't much left to discuss, as the members of that thread didn't add anything to it. This is all why it should be a new post.  Start fresh, let everyone enter the conversation without being behind or skipping ahead.



_Skribs,_ I appreciate your point of view on this. But I don't think anybody here, certainly not Crane nor I, like to have somebody jump in and start lecturing us all on what is and isn't "good manners" and dictating how we should behave. Perhaps that wasn't your original intent, but once you got your back up arguing with Crane, that's exactly how it came across to me.

Could I suggest that instead of accusing people of "bad manners" and breaking a "taboo", you just politely offer your opinion and advice as to how to better handle bringing up old topics, phrasing what you say as just that: namely one forum member's friendly opinion. I can assure you that would get a more positive response. 

And then I wouldn't find myself in the unhappy position of defending _Photon_, when I actually agree that this thread would probably better have been left in the graveyard!


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 16, 2019)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

There is nothing wrong with posting in an old thread. Any user is welcome to post in any thread at any time, so long as the post remains within the restrictions of the TOS.
Please return THIS thread to the original topic.

Mark A Cochran
@Dirty Dog 
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 16, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Is that an issue? Personally I've waited for threads to continue for a bit, then read it all at once. And everyone still has the choice-they don't have to read the discussion if they don't want to, or they can just skip to the last few pages.
> 
> With this thread being an exception, as focusing on the last few pages will just result in them reading about thread necro arguments, instead of anything related to the topic of the thread.


If it is doable, I suggest the whole thread be deleted. Clean slate. The OP has been totally lost and there seems to be some kind of pissing contest going on now. If the topic is worth reposting hopefully someone will start over.


----------



## geezer (Oct 16, 2019)

So getting back to _Photon _(at last) ...Photon, me lad, after all these years, are ye still havin' troubles talkin' with yer instructor 'bout whether it's time to test? What's this all about, now? Have ye missed another chance to advance in rank? Surely you can tell ol' Geezer! 

As far as the rest of you guys go ...well, I can't be the only guy here wondering what's really behind Photon's ...er, ongoing _fixation_ with this issue.


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> ATTENTION ALL USERS:
> 
> There is nothing wrong with posting in an old thread. Any user is welcome to post in any thread at any time, so long as the post remains within the restrictions of the TOS.
> Please return THIS thread to the original topic.
> ...



Good bye.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 17, 2019)

skribs said:


> Good bye.


The straw that broke the camel’s back?  Really??


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 17, 2019)

skribs said:


> Because it's bad manners on an internet forum to resurrect a post where the discussion has died.


According to whom?  Sometimes, we learn a lot when an old thread pops back up.  Others, it spares pointless repetition of a topuc that's been well covered therein...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 17, 2019)

skribs said:


> Just because people do it, doesn't mean it's not bad manners.  If this truly is the case, I'll probably be done here.  I've been on Martial Talk because I considered it the more civilized of the Martial Arts forums.  Based on this discussion here, and several others I've had recently, I'm starting to think of this site as being just as toxic as the others I've been avoiding.


Perhaps looking for common denominators would be enlightening...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## skribs (Oct 17, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> The straw that broke the camel’s back?  Really??



Yes.  I've been growing more and more frustrated with this site over the last few months.  I made a post a few months back thanking Martial Talk for being a nontoxic site.  It has done everything in it's power to prove that post wrong since I put it up.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 17, 2019)

skribs said:


> Yes.  I've been growing more and more frustrated with this site over the last few months.  I made a post a few months back thanking Martial Talk for being a nontoxic site.  It has done everything in it's power to prove that post wrong since I put it up.


Take some time off.  I do it from time-to-time.  We all need to once in a while.  Just take a break.  Then come on back when you are ready.


----------



## geezer (Oct 17, 2019)

skribs said:


> Yes.  I've been growing more and more frustrated with this site over the last few months.  I made a post a few months back thanking Martial Talk for being a nontoxic site.  It has done everything in it's power to prove that post wrong since I put it up.



Man you should have tried visiting the Wing Chun forum 5 or 6 years back. Then you would have seen some ..._real_ toxicity! And still, _Martialtalk_ was a more civil place than most. By comparison, today's forum is like happytown. A regular love fest!


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 17, 2019)

geezer said:


> Man you should have tried visiting the Wing Chun forum 5 or 6 years back. Then you would have seen some ..._real_ toxicity! And still, _Martialtalk_ was a more civil place than most. By comparison, today's forum is like happytown. A regular love fest!


There is always Bullshido if you just need to be abused.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 18, 2019)

skribs said:


> If it's an old discussion that's different than re-opening a thread that's still active.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nobody's complaining about it except you.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 18, 2019)

geezer said:


> Easy for you to say. I'm a slow learner.



Well depending on what you want to do and when you want to do it, you might not be able to meet your goal if you're too slow. 

Whenever I have a goal, often if not always, part of the very goal itself is to get it done within a certain time limit.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 18, 2019)

geezer said:


> Man you should have tried visiting the Wing Chun forum 5 or 6 years back. Then you would have seen some ..._real_ toxicity! And still, _Martialtalk_ was a more civil place than most. By comparison, today's forum is like happytown. A regular love fest!


From what I've been taught about martial arts, its supposed to be about courtesy and respect, at least that's what I've been taught where I train in the martial arts, not something that's supposed to have toxicity.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 18, 2019)

geezer said:


> So getting back to _Photon _(at last) ...Photon, me lad, after all these years, are ye still havin' troubles talkin' with yer instructor 'bout whether it's time to test? What's this all about, now? Have ye missed another chance to advance in rank? Surely you can tell ol' Geezer!
> 
> As far as the rest of you guys go ...well, I can't be the only guy here wondering what's really behind Photon's ...er, ongoing _fixation_ with this issue.


See post #243


----------



## geezer (Oct 18, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> See post #243


OK, read that. You have set a time frame. So the question remains, _have you been meeting your goals?_

... Or have you been frustrated by slower than hoped for rank advancement?


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 18, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well depending on what you want to do and when you want to do it, you might not be able to meet your goal if you're too slow.
> 
> Whenever I have a goal, often if not always, part of the very goal itself is to get it done within a certain time limit.



So, what do you do when you do not meet your timeline? I have lost a good amount of hair from it over the years but have learned ways to anticipate and handle it. I am still not a nice guy if a knucklehead (or knucklehead reason) causes it.  
 We do project work quite often so I get being on a schedule. It is our bottom line and reputation at stake sometimes when we do not meet a schedule. But often times you are working off a premise given by the customer and end up being confronted with changes. Navigating them with the customer is delicate work sometimes.
 It doesn't always happen, for reasons that are usually out of my control. 
Contingency is a major factor in surviving when doing project work.


----------



## Buka (Oct 18, 2019)

Man, this thread took a strange turn. Everybody should relax and take care of their own manners.

It's all good. Makes me want to read old Rod McKuen books, like...




 

Kumbaya, all you sons a beaches.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Nov 22, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> For me, if you just walked up cold and asked "why haven't I tested" that would be bad form. There is usually at least a loose format of what is required for each promotion. If you feel certain you can check all the boxes and can respectfully argue your case then have a talk with your instructor. If they are unapproachable that may be difficult.
> *You should walk away with either an answer in the affirmative or a good explanation of why not and what you need to work on.  *
> Either way, if done properly, it will be a good experience regardless of the answer. There is an emotional/maturation component at work here.


The above in bold is what I would want from an instructor if I was a student who wanted to earn further rank. If the instructor says Im not ready that's fine but I would want to know why, that way I will know what I need to work on. That's more or less what I would be asking for if I were to ask why I haven't tested, to know how I fall short, to know what I need to do to bring myself up to par. 

Also, a good instructor should be approachable, an instructor is not a god, they're a human being like everybody else.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Nov 22, 2019)

geezer said:


> OK, read that. You have set a time frame. So the question remains, _have you been meeting your goals?_
> 
> ... Or have you been frustrated by slower than hoped for rank advancement?


Sorry I took so long to respond, I've been really busy with some stuff so I've been away for awhile. Anyway, its the latter, or at least it has been. 

In the past I've used the example of Eagle Scout in BSA as something where you have a time limit. Everything you do in Boy Scouts you have to do before you turn 18 up to and including being an Eagle Scout. Now, why would somebody want to be an Eagle Scout? Everybody who does want to be an Eagle Scout has their own reasons but that's not the point. The point is they only have so long to do it. Usually you start out as a Boy Scout around the age of 11 although in some cases you can start at 10, that means you've got around 7 years or 8 years at the most in which to earn the rank of Eagle Scout. You're certainly not going to be able to take 30 years to become an Eagle Scout as that far exceeds the time limit. 

Everything has a time limit. You've got only so long to live, that's your time limit right there.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 23, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Also, a good instructor should be approachable, an instructor is not a god, they're a human being like everybody else.


I've seen too many instructors who didn't quite get that.


----------



## geezer (Nov 30, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I've seen too many instructors who didn't quite get that.



What? I'm _not a god?!_   ...Well, dang, _that_ explains a lot.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 15, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I've seen too many instructors who didn't quite get that.


Any instructor who thinks they're a god I would seriously not recommend training under. A sensei should be like a teacher at school or a scoutmaster or a college professor. Those are all positions of respect but by no means is anybody in any of those positions a god to be worshipped and that includes senseis. A student should be able to talk to a teacher. A scout should be able to talk to a scoutmaster. By the same token a student of the martial arts should be able to talk to their sensei.


----------



## Headhunter (Dec 15, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Any instructor who thinks they're a god I would seriously not recommend training under. A sensei should be like a teacher at school or a scoutmaster or a college professor. Those are all positions of respect but by no means is anybody in any of those positions a god to be worshipped and that includes senseis. A student should be able to talk to a teacher. A scout should be able to talk to a scoutmaster. By the same token a student of the martial arts should be able to talk to their sensei.


To many times I've Seen people worship their instructor and I just look at them like....why....I mean okay they're good in martial arts but that doesn't make them some kind of messiah. I feel sorry for people like that. Like martial arts are about self confidence but you're not confident enough to be your own person and follow your instructor around like a lost puppy. Well that's not my style...


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 17, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Any instructor who thinks they're a god I would seriously not recommend training under. A sensei should be like a teacher at school or a scoutmaster or a college professor. Those are all positions of respect but by no means is anybody in any of those positions a god to be worshipped and that includes senseis. A student should be able to talk to a teacher. A scout should be able to talk to a scoutmaster. By the same token a student of the martial arts should be able to talk to their sensei.


Some of them were good at teaching technique and discipline, but in the long run provided really piss-poor leadership examples. I wouldn't mind learning fighting from one of them for a while, but I'll never train for a significant period under one again.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 17, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> To many times I've Seen people worship their instructor and I just look at them like....why....I mean okay they're good in martial arts but that doesn't make them some kind of messiah. I feel sorry for people like that. Like martial arts are about self confidence but you're not confident enough to be your own person and follow your instructor around like a lost puppy. Well that's not my style...


A lot of that with founders of styles/arts, too. They were people, and got some stuff wrong, no matter how good they were.


----------



## Headhunter (Dec 17, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> A lot of that with founders of styles/arts, too. They were people, and got some stuff wrong, no matter how good they were.


When i say stuff like that people whine at me about respect....that's crap. I respect everyone wheter they're a white belt a black belt or no belt. I respect every man and woman on this earth unless they give me reason not to. I respect my instructors for their skills and accomplishments but I also will not worship them either. I'm not a religious man (nothing against it everyone's entitled to their beliefs) so if I don't worship any gods I'm not going to worship a martial art teacher


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 19, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> When i say stuff like that people whine at me about respect....that's crap. I respect everyone wheter they're a white belt a black belt or no belt. I respect every man and woman on this earth unless they give me reason not to. I respect my instructors for their skills and accomplishments but I also will not worship them either. I'm not a religious man (nothing against it everyone's entitled to their beliefs) so if I don't worship any gods I'm not going to worship a martial art teacher


I have tons of respect for what the founder of NGA created and what Richard Bowe (who all current practitioners descend from) did for the art. I also expect both made mistakes, and are aware of some of them.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 19, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> To many times I've Seen people worship their instructor and I just look at them like....why....I mean okay they're good in martial arts but that doesn't make them some kind of messiah. I feel sorry for people like that. Like martial arts are about self confidence but you're not confident enough to be your own person and follow your instructor around like a lost puppy. Well that's not my style...


Could you imagine somebody worshipping a school teacher or a college professor?


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 19, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Some of them were good at teaching technique and discipline, but in the long run provided really piss-poor leadership examples. I wouldn't mind learning fighting from one of them for a while, but I'll never train for a significant period under one again.


Such as the fictional John Kreese I suppose.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 19, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Such as the fictional John Kreese I suppose.


Im not familiar with that name.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 19, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> Could you imagine somebody worshipping a school teacher or a college professor?


I agree with what I understand to be the context. But, I have a high school teacher and a college coach who were big mentors in my formative years. I really, really, really looked up to them and still do at 56. No, I do not worship them, in the definition of the word as I understand it, but they are on a very high mantle.
Nothing wrong with putting your instructor in that category if they merit it in your life.
I still get Christmas cards from kids who I coached in AAU TKD 20 years ago. Do I think they worship me? That is just silly.


----------



## pdg (Dec 20, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Im not familiar with that name.



It was the name of a character in a series of films starting in the 80s, and a recent YouTube spinoff series.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 20, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Im not familiar with that name.



Sweep the leg.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2019)

pdg said:


> It was the name of a character in a series of films starting in the 80s, and a recent YouTube spinoff series.


Ah!  And yes - like that.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 20, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Im not familiar with that name.


You never saw the classic movie The Karate Kid?


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 20, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I agree with what I understand to be the context. But, I have a high school teacher and a college coach who were big mentors in my formative years. I really, really, really looked up to them and still do at 56. No, I do not worship them, in the definition of the word as I understand it, but they are on a very high mantle.
> Nothing wrong with putting your instructor in that category if they merit it in your life.
> I still get Christmas cards from kids who I coached in AAU TKD 20 years ago. Do I think they worship me? That is just silly.


But you had no problems talking to your teacher and coach, did you? If you wanted to get better grades in the class that was taught by your high school teacher or do better in the sport that was coached by your college coach you could talk to them about it, I would think. If you had a problem you could go to your teacher and/or coach with your problem and discuss it with them no doubt.

There is nothing wrong with looking up to such people and putting them on a high mantle like you describe whether they be teachers, coaches, or senseis, but you shouldn't be afraid to talk to them. When you worship such people that's when it becomes a problem. As much as you admired your teacher and coach, they were human beings, just like you. Its the same thing with senseis. When you start worshipping such people and think of them as being godlike rather than human at that point you might not want to talk to them about problems you might have or ways you might want to improve because they are at "too high a level," in your mind to be able to talk to about such stuff. 

Just like you might talk to your teacher or coach about getting better grades or doing better in a sport, there should be nothing wrong with talking to your sensei about rank advancement if you want to earn further rank. There should be nothing wrong with saying something like, "Sensei, what do I need to do to be able to test? You haven't told me I could test so what do I need to work on, what do I need to fix, to be able to test and earn my next rank?" There should be nothing wrong with a student asking their sensei that.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 20, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> But you had no problems talking to your teacher and coach, did you? If you wanted to get better grades in the class that was taught by your high school teacher or do better in the sport that was coached by your college coach you could talk to them about it, I would think. If you had a problem you could go to your teacher and/or coach with your problem and discuss it with them no doubt.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with looking up to such people and putting them on a high mantle like you describe whether they be teachers, coaches, or senseis, but you shouldn't be afraid to talk to them. When you worship such people that's when it becomes a problem. As much as you admired your teacher and coach, they were human beings, just like you. Its the same thing with senseis. When you start worshipping such people and think of them as being godlike rather than human at that point you might not want to talk to them about problems you might have or ways you might want to improve because they are at "too high a level," in your mind to be able to talk to about such stuff.
> 
> Just like you might talk to your teacher or coach about getting better grades or doing better in a sport, there should be nothing wrong with talking to your sensei about rank advancement if you want to earn further rank. There should be nothing wrong with saying something like, "Sensei, what do I need to do to be able to test? You haven't told me I could test so what do I need to work on, what do I need to fix, to be able to test and earn my next rank?" There should be nothing wrong with a student asking their sensei that.


Agree. For me, there is only one God 'like' context. I don't have a problem of confusing that with any person. Someone who does this has bigger issues to address than an over bearing Sensei. It is sad when the Sensei (POC?) takes advantage of this. 
I do see it happen though. Someone puts a lot of their energy and effort into something, MA in this example. They get very invested and if not careful put blinders on and do see the signs.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2019)

PhotonGuy said:


> You never saw the classic movie The Karate Kid?


I suck with names.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 10, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I've seen too many instructors who didn't quite get that.


Ephesians 20:3 "*Thou shalt have no other gods before me"*


----------



## Buka (Mar 10, 2020)

I much prefer the made up Bible quote from the film Pulp Fiction.

Ezekial 25:17


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 12, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Ephesians 20:3 "*Thou shalt have no other gods before me"*


I'm not sure what a religious text has to do with the issue.


----------



## geezer (Mar 12, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure what a religious text has to do with the issue.



Idolatry ...when an instructor presents themselves as more than a coach, ...if they become like a cult-leader who must be worshipped ...like a little god, then that's idolatry. A big no-no in the Western Judeo-Christian  tradition, ya know.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2020)

geezer said:


> Idolatry ...when an instructor presents themselves as more than a coach, ...if they become like a cult-leader who must be worshipped ...like a little god, then that's idolatry. A big no-no in the Western Judeo-Christian  tradition, ya know.




I'm not sure as Jews we'd worship people really, we argue with our G-d a lot as it is so probably not a lot of point expecting us to actually fall to the ground and worship anyone in that way.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure what a religious text has to do with the issue.


geezer in post 273 points it out really well.


----------



## swivel63 (Mar 18, 2020)

belts don't matter.  enjoy the journey.


----------



## PhotonGuy (May 9, 2020)

swivel63 said:


> belts don't matter.  enjoy the journey.


The belt itself doesn't matter so much as what it symbolizes.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 26, 2020)

So anyway I want to point out that asking to test is not the same as asking to promote. When you test it means you might promote, if you do well enough in the test. It certainly doesn't mean you definitely will promote. Obviously you can fail and not promote.

Therefore, asking "can I test," is not the same as asking "can I promote."


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Aug 26, 2020)

True dat


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 30, 2020)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> True dat


Well apparently some people just don't understand the difference.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 4, 2020)

So anyway, lets say you're 1st Kyu. It took you 8 months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu. You've been at 1st Kyu for the last 10 years without testing for, or being promoted to, your next rank of 1st Dan. Your instructor has not said anything about you testing for 1st Dan for the last 10 years. At this point would you ask, "can I test?"


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Sep 4, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, lets say you're 1st Kyu. It took you 8 months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu. You've been at 1st Kyu for the last 10 years without testing for, or being promoted to, your next rank of 1st Dan. Your instructor has not said anything about you testing for 1st Dan for the last 10 years. At this point would you ask, "can I test?"



Nope its up to the instructor not me


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 5, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, lets say you're 1st Kyu. It took you 8 months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu. You've been at 1st Kyu for the last 10 years without testing for, or being promoted to, your next rank of 1st Dan. Your instructor has not said anything about you testing for 1st Dan for the last 10 years. At this point would you ask, "can I test?"


Yes it’s your right to ask


----------



## geezer (Sep 6, 2020)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Nope its up to the instructor not me



If you respect the instructor and want to continue to train under him, I'd agree. Nothing wrong with privately talking to him though and asking if there's anything you can or need to do to make the grade... be that specific training in areas he feels you lack, private lessons, or whatever. On the other hand, just moping around and waiting for the instructor to kick your butt into gear is just dumb. You may never advance! 

After about 10 years with no advancement I approached my instructor in the manner described above. One year later I passed my 4th instructor grade. At age 65, and with some health issues, doubt I will ever go any higher in rank. But I'm learning stuff all the time. And that's good enough!


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 7, 2020)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Nope its up to the instructor not me


Well if it took you eight months the last time you got promoted and now its been ten years and you still haven't promoted it makes sense to say something.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 7, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Yes it’s your right to ask


Yet there are people on this forum who frown upon asking to test.


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 7, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yet there are people on this forum who frown upon asking to test.


Well to me that’s silly. I respect any instructor but at the end of the day he or she is just another human being..and I’m not going to be scared to ask another human whether I can test or not


----------



## Drobison491 (Sep 9, 2020)

I've been doing some reading about different Uechi-Ryu schools and for some of them its expected that you ask to test fro 9th to 6th Kyu, which can be conducted by any black belt.   The first formal test is for 5th Kyu (green belt) which seems to be designated by your instructor.  

Keep in mind I'm new to the style and this is just from internet browsing, so take that for what its worth.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, lets say you're 1st Kyu. It took you 8 months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu. You've been at 1st Kyu for the last 10 years without testing for, or being promoted to, your next rank of 1st Dan. Your instructor has not said anything about you testing for 1st Dan for the last 10 years. At this point would you ask, "can I test?"


Hasn't this been asked and answered, pretty much?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well if it took you eight months the last time you got promoted and now its been ten years and you still haven't promoted it makes sense to say something.


You asked if they would. Some just don't care. I sat at some ranks 3-4 times longer than others. I was happy just being on the mats and getting good at things. Eventually, I'd get around to testing. And I'm not even someone who doesn't care about rank - I just got absorbed in the process.


----------



## Buka (Sep 10, 2020)

You know what we used to do three or four times a year? When there was a particulaly crowded class, we would have everyone take off their belts and switch them around with everyone else. Black belts would wear white, yellow or green etc, greens would be wearing black, blue yada yada.

Before the class started we’d all stand in front of the mirrored wall and yak for a bit. Black belts would say, speaking from their heart, “Man, green belt was my favorite rank, it was so much fun” etc etc. We’d point to a blue belt who was wearing a Black Belt that night and say, “You look cool in that, brother.

Then we would bow in and go crazy hard training, one of those nights where everyone was drenched to the belt. We’d sit around on a cool down at the end and talk about the colored cloth you wore around your waist that night. And how it didn’t really matter, all that mattered was training, learning and working your butt off.

And there was really no need to ask to be tested. Tests happened a few times a year. Everyone in the school was welcomed to test, even if you had been promoted a week before, no matter, jump right in. Tests were purposely the hardest physical workouts we had. Sure, you were drilled on your knowledge and understanding, but the workout was the important thing.

And every single student that joined our dojo had the rules taught to them. And they agreed with them before they were allowed to start. And one of the biggest rules was “Don’t go asking about tests. Because if you come to class and work your tail off, you’ll never have to worry about one, you’ll always be ready.

It wasn’t a dojo for everybody. And thank God for that.


----------



## _Simon_ (Sep 11, 2020)

Buka said:


> You know what we used to do three or four times a year? When there was a particulaly crowded class, we would have everyone take off their belts and switch them around with everyone else. Black belts would wear white, yellow or green etc, greens would be wearing black, blue yada yada.
> 
> Before the class started we’d all stand in front of the mirrored wall and yak for a bit. Black belts would say, speaking from their heart, “Man, green belt was my favorite rank, it was so much fun” etc etc. We’d point to a blue belt who was wearing a Black Belt that night and say, “You look cool in that, brother.
> 
> ...


LOVE this


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 11, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Hasn't this been asked and answered, pretty much?


Not everybody has answered.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 11, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You asked if they would. Some just don't care. I sat at some ranks 3-4 times longer than others. I was happy just being on the mats and getting good at things. Eventually, I'd get around to testing. And I'm not even someone who doesn't care about rank - I just got absorbed in the process.


If a person doesn't care to further promote then they wouldn't ask. What Im talking about is a situation where a person does want to further promote.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 11, 2020)

Buka said:


> You know what we used to do three or four times a year? When there was a particulaly crowded class, we would have everyone take off their belts and switch them around with everyone else. Black belts would wear white, yellow or green etc, greens would be wearing black, blue yada yada....



You're missing the point.



Buka said:


> And there was really no need to ask to be tested. Tests happened a few times a year. Everyone in the school was welcomed to test, even if you had been promoted a week before, no matter, jump right in. Tests were purposely the hardest physical workouts we had. Sure, you were drilled on your knowledge and understanding, but the workout was the important thing.
> 
> And every single student that joined our dojo had the rules taught to them. And they agreed with them before they were allowed to start. And one of the biggest rules was “Don’t go asking about tests. Because if you come to class and work your tail off, you’ll never have to worry about one, you’ll always be ready.
> 
> It wasn’t a dojo for everybody. And thank God for that.


So it sounds like to me that in your dojo that students could sign up and test at their own discretion, whenever they were running tests. A student didn't have to wait to be told by their sensei that they could test. A student could test or not test if they wanted or didn't want to, when they were running tests of course. And it worked that way for all belts and ranks up to and including first degree black belt.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 11, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Not everybody has answered.


I think that at this point, those that haven't answered don't plan on answering.


----------



## Steve (Sep 11, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, lets say you're 1st Kyu. It took you 8 months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu. You've been at 1st Kyu for the last 10 years without testing for, or being promoted to, your next rank of 1st Dan. Your instructor has not said anything about you testing for 1st Dan for the last 10 years. At this point would you ask, "can I test?"


This thread has been going on for long enough that I'm honestly not sure if I've answered or now.  But to this specific question, depending on the style, and how long it generally takes to go from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu in that school, I'd say maybe 9 1/2 years ago?  I mean, if it takes a year or two to get a black belt in a lot of styles, moving from one kyu to the next should be a matter of months.  If you aren't testing, that would indicate you aren't progressing... and that's something I would think you should be able to talk about at any time with your instructor.


----------



## Steve (Sep 11, 2020)

Buka said:


> You know what we used to do three or four times a year? When there was a particulaly crowded class, we would have everyone take off their belts and switch them around with everyone else. Black belts would wear white, yellow or green etc, greens would be wearing black, blue yada yada.
> 
> Before the class started we’d all stand in front of the mirrored wall and yak for a bit. Black belts would say, speaking from their heart, “Man, green belt was my favorite rank, it was so much fun” etc etc. We’d point to a blue belt who was wearing a Black Belt that night and say, “You look cool in that, brother.
> 
> ...


Sounds nasty, man.  I don't want to put on your stinky old belt.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 11, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Not everybody has answered.


Not everybody will, no matter how many times you re-ask it. The range of answers will remain largely unchanged.


----------



## dancingalone (Sep 12, 2020)

I used to think one should not ask.  Now after years and years of owning multiple schools, I don't mind one bit.  I have an objective requirement model that I happily give out.  Achieve this, and you can test.  I also subjectively evaluate students and will move them on when I think the time is right.

If a student asks to test and is not ready yet, I will happily test them.  Occasionally they rise to the challenge.


----------



## Buka (Sep 12, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> You're missing the point.
> 
> 
> So it sounds like to me that in your dojo that students could sign up and test at their own discretion, whenever they were running tests. A student didn't have to wait to be told by their sensei that they could test. A student could test or not test if they wanted or didn't want to, when they were running tests of course. And it worked that way for all belts and ranks up to and including first degree black belt.



Any testing or promotion to Black Belt was separate than for underbelt ranks.

Let me ask you guys this.....is it an automatic that if a person trains in your dojo for X amount of years, they will eventually be promoted to Black Belt?

Let me ask any instructors.....do you ask your students, be it at the beginning of their journey or somewhere down the line, where they see themselves in say, five years or ten?


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 12, 2020)

Buka said:


> Any testing or promotion to Black Belt was separate than for underbelt ranks.
> 
> Let me ask you guys this.....is it an automatic that if a person trains in your dojo for X amount of years, they will eventually be promoted to Black Belt?
> 
> Let me ask any instructors.....do you ask your students, be it at the beginning of their journey or somewhere down the line, where they see themselves in say, five years or ten?


Nope to the first question and yes to the second.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 13, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> I used to think one should not ask.  Now after years and years of owning multiple schools, I don't mind one bit.  I have an objective requirement model that I happily give out.  Achieve this, and you can test.  I also subjectively evaluate students and will move them on when I think the time is right.
> 
> If a student asks to test and is not ready yet, I will happily test them.  Occasionally they rise to the challenge.


So why did you have a problem with students asking if they could test in the past? How does rank advancement at your school work?


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 13, 2020)

Buka said:


> Any testing or promotion to Black Belt was separate than for underbelt ranks.


How was it different? 



Buka said:


> Let me ask you guys this.....is it an automatic that if a person trains in your dojo for X amount of years, they will eventually be promoted to Black Belt?


None of the schools I go to or have gone to function like that.



Buka said:


> Let me ask any instructors.....do you ask your students, be it at the beginning of their journey or somewhere down the line, where they see themselves in say, five years or ten?


Im not a head instructor but if I was I might ask my students that, and I would ask my students what they hope to get out of it.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 13, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I think that at this point, those that haven't answered don't plan on answering.


I want an answer from MJS


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 13, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Hasn't this been asked and answered, pretty much?


I still don't think I've made my point.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 13, 2020)

Steve said:


> If you aren't testing, that would indicate you aren't progressing... and that's something I would think you should be able to talk about at any time with your instructor.


Or maybe you just haven't signed up to test because you think you have to be told by your instructor that you can test and so you've been waiting the whole time for your instructor to tell you that you can test.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 13, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Not everybody will, no matter how many times you re-ask it. The range of answers will remain largely unchanged.


I still want an answer from MJS.
And the answers might change if I ask different questions, which is one of the problems here I haven't been asking the right questions or I haven't been asking them in the right way. Communication can be a bummer.


----------



## dancingalone (Sep 13, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> So why did you have a problem with students asking if they could test in the past? How does rank advancement at your school work?



The usual ideas behind modesty, humilty, and Sensei knows best.  I think differently now.

I invite students to test when they have reached a combination of time in grade and eyeball readiness/fitness in their technique.  Not everyone moves at the same rate.  The vast majority of people are happy or content with this approach.  If someone wants to test without my invitation, I will acommodate them.  I don't make any concessions to my standards though.  They need to earn it.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 13, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> The usual ideas behind modesty, humilty, and Sensei knows best.  I think differently now.


Well of course Sensei knows best, that's why Sensei runs the tests and that's why Sensei does the testing and that's why Sensei tells you if you passed or failed.



dancingalone said:


> I invite students to test when they have reached a combination of time in grade and eyeball readiness/fitness in their technique.  Not everyone moves at the same rate.  The vast majority of people are happy or content with this approach.  If someone wants to test without my invitation, I will acommodate them.  I don't make any concessions to my standards though.  They need to earn it.


Some schools run tests every few months or so and its up to the students if they want to test or not. Is that how your school works?


----------



## dancingalone (Sep 13, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well of course Sensei knows best, that's why Sensei runs the tests and that's why Sensei does the testing and that's why Sensei tells you if you passed or failed.



Yeah, funny how that works.



PhotonGuy said:


> Some schools run tests every few months or so and its up to the students if they want to test or not. Is that how your school works?


 
As I said, students receive invitations.  Not many actually refuse the opportunity to test and advance.  Those that do mostly do it because they have a time conflict with something else already.  No biggie.  They can test next time.  I run color belt exams 4x a year and a dan test 1x a year.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 13, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> As I said, students receive invitations.  Not many actually refuse the opportunity to test and advance.  Those that do mostly do it because they have a time conflict with something else already.  No biggie.  They can test next time.  I run color belt exams 4x a year and a dan test 1x a year.


I see, so they run tests about four times a year and whether or not a student is testing depends on whether or not they got an invitation to test.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 13, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> I still don't think I've made my point.


Then maybe make a statement, rather than asking the question again. You seem to be hoping someone will post something that either makes your point, or which is contrary to your point so you can point at it and say, "See? That's what I"m talking about."


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 13, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> I still want an answer from MJS.
> And the answers might change if I ask different questions, which is one of the problems here I haven't been asking the right questions or I haven't been asking them in the right way. Communication can be a bummer.


Who is MJS, and why not just ask them, rather than posting a question with nobody tagged in it?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 14, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Who is MJS, and why not just ask them, rather than posting a question with nobody tagged in it?


He's an old admin that i haven't seen post at all in about 2-3 years at least.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 16, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Then maybe make a statement, rather than asking the question again. You seem to be hoping someone will post something that either makes your point, or which is contrary to your point so you can point at it and say, "See? That's what I"m talking about."


     Alright I will put it this way and hopefully I will make my point. Lets say there's a student whose at 1st kyu and they want to earn the rank of 1st dan. They've been at 1st kyu for the last ten years. It took them eight months to get from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu which means they'e been at the rank of 1st kyu for nine years and four months longer than they were at the rank of 2nd kyu. At this point, would it be improper for the student to say anything to their sensei about it?

     Some people on this forum have mentioned that they don't care about earning rank so it makes sense that they wouldn't say anything to their sensei about it. If they're content with being at 1st kyu and they don't care about going from 1st kyu to 1st dan then they don't have any reason to say anything to their sensei about it. But Im not talking about them when Im talking about the student in the situation above. The student in the example is not you, me, or anybody on this forum, just a generic student who wants to earn 1st dan and whose been at 1st kyu for the last ten years when it took them eight months to get from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu.

     The question is, would there be anything wrong with the student saying something to their sensei at that point? Ten years have passed and the student has not tested or been promoted? Would there be anything wrong with the student saying something about it to their sensei? Would there be anything wrong with the student saying something to their sensei about it well before ten years have passed?


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 16, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright I will put it this way and hopefully I will make my point. Lets say there's a student whose at 1st kyu and they want to earn the rank of 1st dan. They've been at 1st kyu for the last ten years. It took them eight months to get from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu which means they'e been at the rank of 1st kyu for nine years and four months longer than they were at the rank of 2nd kyu. At this point, would it be improper for the student to say anything to their sensei about it?
> 
> Some people on this forum have mentioned that they don't care about earning rank so it makes sense that they wouldn't say anything to their sensei about it. If they're content with being at 1st kyu and they don't care about going from 1st kyu to 1st dan then they don't have any reason to say anything to their sensei about it. But Im not talking about them when Im talking about the student in the situation above. The student in the example is not you, me, or anybody on this forum, just a generic student who wants to earn 1st dan and whose been at 1st kyu for the last ten years when it took them eight months to get from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu.
> 
> The question is, would there be anything wrong with the student saying something to their sensei at that point? Ten years have passed and the student has not tested or been promoted? Would there be anything wrong with the student saying something about it to their sensei? Would there be anything wrong with the student saying something to their sensei about it well before ten years have passed?


Has this person learned anything beyond the 1st kyu curriculum? If not that answers the question. 
If the person has continued to learn curriculum and simply has no desire to test, that is fine for the person but can cause a plethora of problems for the instructor and school. That is why it is simply not done. 
As an aside; if this person trained to 1st  kyu in a legitimate school and then left and 'trained' on their own for 9 years using only  the internet, and then showed back up at a school and expected to test at some higher rank; well, that is just stupid.


----------



## dancingalone (Sep 16, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> The question is, would there be anything wrong with the student saying something to their sensei at that point? Ten years have passed and the student has not tested or been promoted? Would there be anything wrong with the student saying something about it to their sensei? Would there be anything wrong with the student saying something to their sensei about it well before ten years have passed?



In your hypothetical scenario, I don't have a problem with the student asking about his training and progression path.  With that said, if 10 years have really passed without the teacher and student having a conversation of this very nature organically, there's something very, very wrong with the relationship to begin with.

All of my students are very important to me and I have over 200 at last count before COVID.  I can't imagine having a student with me at 1st kyu or 1st gup for 10 years without a discussion about what I want to see from him to get him to 1st dan.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright I will put it this way and hopefully I will make my point. Lets say there's a student whose at 1st kyu and they want to earn the rank of 1st dan. They've been at 1st kyu for the last ten years. It took them eight months to get from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu which means they'e been at the rank of 1st kyu for nine years and four months longer than they were at the rank of 2nd kyu. At this point, would it be improper for the student to say anything to their sensei about it?
> 
> Some people on this forum have mentioned that they don't care about earning rank so it makes sense that they wouldn't say anything to their sensei about it. If they're content with being at 1st kyu and they don't care about going from 1st kyu to 1st dan then they don't have any reason to say anything to their sensei about it. But Im not talking about them when Im talking about the student in the situation above. The student in the example is not you, me, or anybody on this forum, just a generic student who wants to earn 1st dan and whose been at 1st kyu for the last ten years when it took them eight months to get from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu.
> 
> The question is, would there be anything wrong with the student saying something to their sensei at that point? Ten years have passed and the student has not tested or been promoted? Would there be anything wrong with the student saying something about it to their sensei? Would there be anything wrong with the student saying something to their sensei about it well before ten years have passed?


You've asked that question multiple ways. Folks have answered it. Why not just state the point you're trying to make, rather than continuing to ask the question?


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 16, 2020)

How about this:  if you want to ask, then ask.  See what happens.  

There.  Done.  16 pages later, Jeezuz.


----------



## Buka (Sep 17, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> How was it different?
> 
> I’m a hopeless romantic. There was a time when earning the rank of Black Belt meant something. To me it still does, or at least it should.
> 
> ...





PhotonGuy said:


> How was it different?
> 
> The reason I asked my students that, at least the students that had trained for a while, was so I could help get them to where they wanted to be in five years, or ten.  And I did.
> 
> ...


----------



## Buka (Sep 17, 2020)

Well, that last post didn't; work very well. Looked okay from this side, but I guess not. I'll try again tomorrow.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Has this person learned anything beyond the 1st kyu curriculum? If not that answers the question.


Well yes it is assumed that the student has learned the kata and/or whatever else is required for 1st dan. 



dvcochran said:


> If the person has continued to learn curriculum and simply has no desire to test, that is fine for the person but can cause a plethora of problems for the instructor and school. That is why it is simply not done.


That depends. Every school is run differently. At the first MA school that I got seriously involved in, tests were run about every four months. It was up to the student if he or she wanted to test, of course just because you tested didn't mean you would promote, there were students that failed. Some students didn't care much about rank progression and as such might stay at a particular belt for quite a bit longer than other students, even if they were skilled enough to pass the test they simply wouldn't sign up for the test. 



dvcochran said:


> As an aside; if this person trained to 1st  kyu in a legitimate school and then left and 'trained' on their own for 9 years using only  the internet, and then showed back up at a school and expected to test at some higher rank; well, that is just stupid.


Well no I think its obvious that Im not talking about a case like that, Im talking about a student that regularly trained at the school the whole time.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 27, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> In your hypothetical scenario, I don't have a problem with the student asking about his training and progression path.  With that said, if 10 years have really passed without the teacher and student having a conversation of this very nature organically, there's something very, very wrong with the relationship to begin with.
> 
> All of my students are very important to me and I have over 200 at last count before COVID.  I can't imagine having a student with me at 1st kyu or 1st gup for 10 years without a discussion about what I want to see from him to get him to 1st dan.


Over 200 students, wow that's quite a bit. For a small school with maybe 10 or 12 students at the most I can see how it wouldn't be that hard to develop close relationships with all your students and to know exactly where they are in terms of skill level but if you've got over 100 students, or for that matter 200 students it must be very difficult unless you've got lots of assistant instructors. 

As for a student not progressing in rank for 10 years it could be because of a bad relationship with the instructor, or it could be that maybe the student just doesn't care to promote any further. People take up the martial arts for all different reasons, desires, and goals.  For some people rank progression just isn't one of those reasons, desires, or goals.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> How about this:  if you want to ask, then ask.  See what happens.
> 
> There.  Done.  16 pages later, Jeezuz.


Alright, just what should I ask?


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You've asked that question multiple ways. Folks have answered it. Why not just state the point you're trying to make, rather than continuing to ask the question?


My point is that if a student wants to further promote and the student has been showing up to class and training regularly and if a reasonable amount of time has passed where the student holds their current rank and by reasonable I mean in proportion to the length of time it took for the student to be promoted the last time they were promoted, there is nothing wrong with the student saying something to their instructor about it.


----------



## KOKarate (Sep 27, 2020)

As a teacher I have no issue with a student asking me if they’re able to test. Honestly imo if they’re too uncomfortable or afraid to ask....then I’ve done something very wrong to make them feel that way that they can’t even ask a simple question. I don’t want my students to blindly follow me like sheep I want my students to be strong enough to question things. I’ve had students ask me about testing because I haven’t told them they are simply because I forgot to...it was my mistake but them asking made me realize it and go “oh crap yeah you are I just forgot to mention it sorry mate “

again what kind of teacher does that make someone if they’re making their students afraid to ask questions? Especially children they’ll grow up thinking that they just have to accept everything that happens to them and that can cause a lot of issues down the line in life


----------



## KOKarate (Sep 27, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright, just what should I ask?


Am I testing in the next test?


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 27, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright, just what should I ask?


Do I need to wipe your *** for you too?  C’mon man, grow up.


----------



## dancingalone (Sep 27, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> As for a student not progressing in rank for 10 years it could be because of a bad relationship with the instructor, or it could be that maybe the student just doesn't care to promote any further. People take up the martial arts for all different reasons, desires, and goals.  For some people rank progression just isn't one of those reasons, desires, or goals.



Sure, some people don't care at all about gaining rank.  With that said, if you are a regular attending student and your school uses a rank system and you are indeed growing in skill and expertise, you should be promoting with reasonable frequency too.  What good does it do you to be a shodan with 15 years of regular practice?  It doesn't.  You should be progressing with your peers and learning the material at the same rate so you can mentor others when it becomes appropriate for you to.

Obviously I am not talking about people who get injured or quit or life gets in the way for years at a time.  Those people are naturally removed from the progression path.


----------



## KOKarate (Sep 27, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Sure, some people don't care at all about gaining rank.  With that said, if you are a regular attending student and your school uses a rank system and you are indeed growing in skill and expertise, you should be promoting with reasonable frequency too.  What good does it do you to be a shodan with 15 years of regular practice?  It doesn't.  You should be progressing with your peers and learning the material at the same rate so you can mentor others when it becomes appropriate for you to.
> 
> Obviously I am not talking about people who get injured or quit or life gets in the way for years at a time.  Those people are naturally removed from the progression path.


They’ll have that skill no matter what color belt they have and that’s what’s important the skill not the belt. I stayed at the same rank for nearly 5 years once just because I didn’t care enough about getting a new belt that I felt the need to pay a big sum of money to test for it. I was happy where I was and just enjoying the training and getting better. There’s nothing wrong with people chasing new ranks it’s up to them but there’s also nothing wrong with not testing. There’s no real reason why someone couldn’t just stay as a white belt forever. The only reason that wouldn’t work is if they were competing then yes of course that’d be unfair advantage but apart from that you don’t need it. I’ve got a student who’s late 40s and been with me for about 6 years and never tested. Every time it comes near testing time I ask him if he wants to he says no I say okay and that’s it. His choice when it comes to splitting the groups I put him with the more advanced to keep him with people his level. No one questions it. I’m never going to force someone to test if they don’t want to.


----------



## dancingalone (Sep 27, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> They’ll have that skill no matter what color belt they have and that’s what’s important the skill not the belt. I stayed at the same rank for nearly 5 years once just because I didn’t care enough about getting a new belt that I felt the need to pay a big sum of money to test for it. I was happy where I was and just enjoying the training and getting better. There’s nothing wrong with people chasing new ranks it’s up to them but there’s also nothing wrong with not testing. There’s no real reason why someone couldn’t just stay as a white belt forever. The only reason that wouldn’t work is if they were competing then yes of course that’d be unfair advantage but apart from that you don’t need it. I’ve got a student who’s late 40s and been with me for about 6 years and never tested. Every time it comes near testing time I ask him if he wants to he says no I say okay and that’s it. His choice when it comes to splitting the groups I put him with the more advanced to keep him with people his level. No one questions it. I’m never going to force someone to test if they don’t want to.



You're overlooking the (large) school owner perspective.  With so many students, I must separate students by rank and skill so there is sufficient time and space alloted for their particular needs.  I don't have a lot of time to type it out right now, but just give it a thought.  If I have floor space for 30 students to move around comfortably....200 or so students divided into all ranks and ages.... 1 full time instructor (me) and 2 part time instructors and 1 office manager....

How might those considerations affect my thoughts on student promotions?  Why on earth in that set up would a student that is capable of ranking up, not rank up?  Should I just make exceptions for him all the time?  Push him to privates only?

The focus on not gaining rank seems peculiar to me.  It is admirable to not chase it for its own sake, but let's realize it is not necessarily about ego or money.  Grades exists to create organization and order.  This is very important when you go beyond a handful of students if you want to stay sane while keeping the level of practice and instruction focused to their matching audiences.  Now think about getting even bigger and what you have to do to scale there?


----------



## dancingalone (Sep 27, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Over 200 students, wow that's quite a bit. For a small school with maybe 10 or 12 students at the most I can see how it wouldn't be that hard to develop close relationships with all your students and to know exactly where they are in terms of skill level but if you've got over 100 students, or for that matter 200 students it must be very difficult unless you've got lots of assistant instructors.



You make the time.  I have regular office hours where students and family members can make appointments to talk about anything really, including their personal progress and what I can do to help them succeed.  I also have an invitation process for students to test for their next ranks.  Occasionally that process includes a mandatory in-person discussion.


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 27, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> They’ll have that skill no matter what color belt they have and that’s what’s important the skill not the belt. I stayed at the same rank for nearly 5 years once just because I didn’t care enough about getting a new belt that I felt the need to pay a big sum of money to test for it. I was happy where I was and just enjoying the training and getting better. There’s nothing wrong with people chasing new ranks it’s up to them but there’s also nothing wrong with not testing. There’s no real reason why someone couldn’t just stay as a white belt forever. The only reason that wouldn’t work is if they were competing then yes of course that’d be unfair advantage but apart from that you don’t need it. I’ve got a student who’s late 40s and been with me for about 6 years and never tested. Every time it comes near testing time I ask him if he wants to he says no I say okay and that’s it. His choice when it comes to splitting the groups I put him with the more advanced to keep him with people his level. No one questions it. I’m never going to force someone to test if they don’t want to.


Depending on your class size and makeup this could/will cause problems and lead to attrition. Chasing rank with no other purpose is a bad thing I fully agree. When it is used as a personal target/goal it is a very, very good thing. Schools who push it any other way are doing a dis-service. A school has to have stop gap measures to ensure adequate skill progression of course. But a person who has consistently worked out for six year and is still a white belt, in a school that typically promotes on a regular/semi-regular schedule, that is a bad thing, IMHO. If they are truly above their rank why not just give them the belt, clarity if nothing else? 
If they do not want to or cannot pay for certification so be it, that is between instructor/student. When I was still running our local school we had quite a large special needs and human services program. We promoted them through the color belt ranks at no charge. Kids could get a Poom certificate for 1st Dan no charge. Kukkiwon balked on special needs adults doing it. Granted this was in the 80's well before para-martial arts had a foothold.


----------



## Buka (Sep 27, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> They’ll have that skill no matter what color belt they have and that’s what’s important the skill not the belt. I stayed at the same rank for nearly 5 years once just because I didn’t care enough about getting a new belt that I felt the need to pay a big sum of money to test for it. I was happy where I was and just enjoying the training and getting better. There’s nothing wrong with people chasing new ranks it’s up to them but there’s also nothing wrong with not testing. There’s no real reason why someone couldn’t just stay as a white belt forever. The only reason that wouldn’t work is if they were competing then yes of course that’d be unfair advantage but apart from that you don’t need it. I’ve got a student who’s late 40s and been with me for about 6 years and never tested. Every time it comes near testing time I ask him if he wants to he says no I say okay and that’s it. His choice when it comes to splitting the groups I put him with the more advanced to keep him with people his level. No one questions it. I’m never going to force someone to test if they don’t want to.



Just wanted to welcome you to Martial Talk, Ko.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Sep 27, 2020)

About refusing to ask/test for promotion:

Afraid to fail - instructor should consul student (or advise parent to do so) about realities of life and help shore up student's confidence.
Afraid of test fees - Don't like them, but see the realities of business as well.  I would not let that keep a worthy student from testing and would work to find alternative solutions.

Too self absorbed to be bothered by having to test as its the skill that counts - Counter productive.  This guy needs a brain, and probably an attitude adjustment.  If no advancement, no advanced training.  If no advanced training, no advanced skill.  This was my reason for wanting to test, to position myself to learn more.  White belts seldom get to learn black belt technique or weapons.  

Just too lazy and unmotivated to test - Stupid too, as they're paying money each month for nothing.  May be worth it to get rid of this one in the long run as may be a bad influence on other students.

Reluctant to ask - Could be shy or unsure of proper procedure.  If the student is not proactive, the instructor should be for the good of the student.  Tell him, "You're testing next month, and next time ask if you think you may be ready."
Just a few simple thoughts on the subject.  Conclusion - bottom line, the (head) instructor's in charge and is responsible for everything that goes on in his school.  The school is a reflection of the instructor.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 28, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> As a teacher I have no issue with a student asking me if they’re able to test. Honestly imo if they’re too uncomfortable or afraid to ask....then I’ve done something very wrong to make them feel that way that they can’t even ask a simple question. I don’t want my students to blindly follow me like sheep I want my students to be strong enough to question things. I’ve had students ask me about testing because I haven’t told them they are simply because I forgot to...it was my mistake but them asking made me realize it and go “oh crap yeah you are I just forgot to mention it sorry mate “
> 
> again what kind of teacher does that make someone if they’re making their students afraid to ask questions? Especially children they’ll grow up thinking that they just have to accept everything that happens to them and that can cause a lot of issues down the line in life


I see, so what kind of system do you use? Do you run tests every few months or so? Also, what is the size of your classes? I would think it would be much easier to keep track of where every student is in terms of progress with smaller classes as opposed to bigger classes.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 28, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Do I need to wipe your *** for you too?  C’mon man, grow up.


Alright, well its a bit too late to ask anything now.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 28, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Sure, some people don't care at all about gaining rank.  With that said, if you are a regular attending student and your school uses a rank system and you are indeed growing in skill and expertise, you should be promoting with reasonable frequency too.  What good does it do you to be a shodan with 15 years of regular practice?  It doesn't.  You should be progressing with your peers and learning the material at the same rate so you can mentor others when it becomes appropriate for you to.
> 
> Obviously I am not talking about people who get injured or quit or life gets in the way for years at a time.  Those people are naturally removed from the progression path.


It all depends on exactly what kind of ranking system and what kind of system for promotion your school uses. At some schools they schedule tests every few months or so and its up to each individual student if they want to test, no student is made to test. Some students might not care to advance any further and so they simply won't test, they won't sign up to test. So they might stay at a certain rank indefinitely. A friend of mine was at 3rd Kyu brown and he stayed at 3rd Kyu brown for years and the last I saw of him he was still 3rd Kyu brown, he just didn't care to advance any further.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 28, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> They’ll have that skill no matter what color belt they have and that’s what’s important the skill not the belt. I stayed at the same rank for nearly 5 years once just because I didn’t care enough about getting a new belt that I felt the need to pay a big sum of money to test for it. I was happy where I was and just enjoying the training and getting better. There’s nothing wrong with people chasing new ranks it’s up to them but there’s also nothing wrong with not testing. There’s no real reason why someone couldn’t just stay as a white belt forever. The only reason that wouldn’t work is if they were competing then yes of course that’d be unfair advantage but apart from that you don’t need it. I’ve got a student who’s late 40s and been with me for about 6 years and never tested. Every time it comes near testing time I ask him if he wants to he says no I say okay and that’s it. His choice when it comes to splitting the groups I put him with the more advanced to keep him with people his level. No one questions it. I’m never going to force someone to test if they don’t want to.


This is the point I've been trying to make all along, some students don't care about rank advancement and so they won't test or be promoted provided they go to a school that will let you not test or promote. Then there are those students who do want to promote, they have goals of earning certain ranks, for instance some students might have the goal of earning 1st Dan black belt. Just as there is nothing wrong with not wanting to earn rank there is nothing wrong with wanting to earn rank and there is nothing wrong with having a goal of earning 1st Dan black belt or whatever.
You're right that the skill is there regardless of whatever color belt a student wears. Putting on a certain colored belt isn't going to magically make you any more or less skilled. However some students want to earn rank because that is proof that they've developed the skill the way the school wants them to. It is proof that they've met the standards in knowledge, skill, and ability that the school sets for whatever rank they've earned.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 28, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> How about this:  if you want to ask, then ask.  See what happens.
> 
> There.  Done.  16 pages later, Jeezuz.


Oh I forgot to say, if you ask at a school such as the one Buka went to, you get suspended from rank advancement for the next six months. 

So asking can lead to some bad results that you might not want.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 28, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Oh I forgot to say, if you ask at a school such as the one Buka went to, you get suspended from rank advancement for the next six months.
> 
> So asking can lead to some bad results that you might not want.


Be a big boy, make up your own mind, and then do or do not.


----------



## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

I'm missing a lot of subtext in this conversation clearly, so I won't say more than this.  

Be selective when you pick an instructor and school (this should not be done lightly if you are an adult and know MA is a longterm endeavor for you).  Cultivate a good relationship with your teacher.  This means being honest about your goals and reasons for training.  Work hard when you are in class and make an earnest effort to learn the lessons even if its something you don't necessarily care for at that moment.  Over time when the teacher recognizes you are worth the extra investment, you will benefit from his knowledge. 

A relationship is a two-way street.  Yes, the teacher owes you something if you are paying him tuition.  But, invest in your relationship with him beyond the monetary arrangement.  He will do the same.  In the end, martial artists love sharing what they know.  Make it easy for that process to happen.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Over 200 students, wow that's quite a bit. For a small school with maybe 10 or 12 students at the most I can see how it wouldn't be that hard to develop close relationships with all your students and to know exactly where they are in terms of skill level but if you've got over 100 students, or for that matter 200 students it must be very difficult unless you've got lots of assistant instructors.
> 
> As for a student not progressing in rank for 10 years it could be because of a bad relationship with the instructor, or it could be that maybe the student just doesn't care to promote any further. People take up the martial arts for all different reasons, desires, and goals.  For some people rank progression just isn't one of those reasons, desires, or goals.


With 100 (about what the school was like when I was one of the senior instructors), I didn’t have any trouble knowing where students were, from a skill perspective. And with larger schools, you usually have more instructors and/or senior students assisting, and they can give that input.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> My point is that if a student wants to further promote and the student has been showing up to class and training regularly and if a reasonable amount of time has passed where the student holds their current rank and by reasonable I mean in proportion to the length of time it took for the student to be promoted the last time they were promoted, there is nothing wrong with the student saying something to their instructor about it.


Ok.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> You're overlooking the (large) school owner perspective.  With so many students, I must separate students by rank and skill so there is sufficient time and space alloted for their particular needs.  I don't have a lot of time to type it out right now, but just give it a thought.  If I have floor space for 30 students to move around comfortably....200 or so students divided into all ranks and ages.... 1 full time instructor (me) and 2 part time instructors and 1 office manager....
> 
> How might those considerations affect my thoughts on student promotions?  Why on earth in that set up would a student that is capable of ranking up, not rank up?  Should I just make exceptions for him all the time?  Push him to privates only?
> 
> The focus on not gaining rank seems peculiar to me.  It is admirable to not chase it for its own sake, but let's realize it is not necessarily about ego or money.  Grades exists to create organization and order.  This is very important when you go beyond a handful of students if you want to stay sane while keeping the level of practice and instruction focused to their matching audiences.  Now think about getting even bigger and what you have to do to scale there?


Even with smaller schools, rank makes a great shortcut for things like pairing up students for the first activity.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 4, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> If a student asks to test and is not ready yet, I will happily test them.  Occasionally they rise to the challenge.


I would think, its not a matter of whether or not a student is ready to test its a matter of whether or not a student is ready to promote, to determine whether or not a student is ready to promote, that's the purpose of the test.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 4, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> I run color belt exams 4x a year and a dan test 1x a year.


So why do you run a dan test only once a year when you run color belt exams four times a year?


----------



## KOKarate (Oct 4, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> I would think, its not a matter of whether or not a student is ready to test its a matter of whether or not a student is ready to promote, to determine whether or not a student is ready to promote, that's the purpose of the test.


It’s the same thing. If they’re not ready to promote they shouldn’t be in the test. Everyone in a test should already have passed in the minds of the panel they just have to come in and show it on the day


----------



## KOKarate (Oct 4, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> So why do you run a dan test only once a year when you run color belt exams four times a year?


I assume it’s because dan ranks shouldn’t be given out as quick as color belts which is just obvious


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 4, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> So why do you run a dan test only once a year when you run color belt exams four times a year?



Because it is a long test with some exhaustive measures to show the candidate has achieved some significant milestones.  It's difficult to pass.

Also, I usually bring in some additional judges just to mark the occasion.  I do not need to being a 7th dan myself in karate, but it is nice to grow fellowship and give the test a mark of distinction for the black belts testing.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 4, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> I would think, its not a matter of whether or not a student is ready to test its a matter of whether or not a student is ready to promote, to determine whether or not a student is ready to promote, that's the purpose of the test.



Sure.  But you understand the difference?  I let anyone test, because it is egalitarian.  That way if they really feel they are ready but for whatever reason they haven't been invited, they can invite themselves.  It rarely happens, but I think it is a good safety outlet/quality control measure to have.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 4, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> It’s the same thing. If they’re not ready to promote they shouldn’t be in the test. Everyone in a test should already have passed in the minds of the panel they just have to come in and show it on the day


In that case why even test? If you know if a student is ready to promote there is no need to test them, you can just promote them.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 4, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> I assume it’s because dan ranks shouldn’t be given out as quick as color belts which is just obvious


That depends, in the USA they tend to make a big deal out of promoting a student from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan. In Japan on the other hand 1st Dan is just another rank, nothing special about it. Its just the rank after 1st Kyu and before 2nd Dan.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 4, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Because it is a long test with some exhaustive measures to show the candidate has achieved some significant milestones.  It's difficult to pass.
> 
> Also, I usually bring in some additional judges just to mark the occasion.  I do not need to being a 7th dan myself in karate, but it is nice to grow fellowship and give the test a mark of distinction for the black belts testing.


So is your head instructor from the USA? If so I understand why they would make a big deal out of promoting students to 1st Dan.


----------



## KOKarate (Oct 4, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> In that case why even test? If you know if a student is ready to promote there is no need to test them, you can just promote them.


Because they need to show they can perform under pressure in a pressure filled environment. Why do exams at school if the teachers have already shown them everything


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 4, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Sure.  But you understand the difference?  I let anyone test, because it is egalitarian.  That way if they really feel they are ready but for whatever reason they haven't been invited, they can invite themselves.  It rarely happens, but I think it is a good safety outlet/quality control measure to have.


They might really ace their test even if they do lousy in practice, just like how some figure skaters might sometimes do lousy in practice but do their best performance during competition and ace the competition. 

When a student does a kata that they're being tested on for promotion, or if they're doing a kata in a competitive tournament, they're going to go all out and do their very best, its going to be different then if they were just doing it for practice.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 4, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> Because they need to show they can perform under pressure in a pressure filled environment. Why do exams at school if the teachers have already shown them everything


You've got a point there about students showing they can perform under pressure. I take it some students do fail promotion tests at your school.

As for tests and exams in academic schools, just because a teacher shows their students certain stuff, certain academic material, doesn't mean the students have wired it and know it. That's what the tests are for, to show that the students have wired the material.


----------



## Buka (Oct 4, 2020)




----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> So why do you run a dan test only once a year when you run color belt exams four times a year?


I expect it's for three reasons:

Fewer people to test (by an order of magnitude), so don't need as many spots.
Years between testing individuals, so once a year is good enough.
They take more time, so they're held less often.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 4, 2020)

Buka said:


> View attachment 23196


So funny I forgot to laugh.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 15, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You've asked that question multiple ways. Folks have answered it. Why not just state the point you're trying to make, rather than continuing to ask the question?


As for me asking the question in the past in multiple ways, lets forget about all the other times I asked and make this the first time Im asking.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You've asked that question multiple ways. Folks have answered it. Why not just state the point you're trying to make, rather than continuing to ask the question?


This is exactly what Im talking about when I say that I want to take stuff back that I've said.


----------

