# Is this a red flag?



## Spinoza

Hello all,

I've only had a few months of martial arts experience, and I've recently had to move to a new city. I'm having a lot of difficulty finding a school that matches with my previous experience, so I've expanded my search to include other traditions.

One school has really piqued my interest, and I reached out to schedule in introductory session, but they charge $25 dollars for such a session. Is this a red flag? I won't be able to find out what their monthly fees are unless I meet with them . . . but I have to pay to meet with them, and as awesome as they may be, they may not be in my budget range. Now, I 100% understand meeting with a student and making sure your goals are aligned before discussing rates, but this is the first time I've encountered a martial arts school that charges for intros; however, that could just be due to my inexperience.


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## ballen0351

I dont know if its a red flag but I wouldn't pay it.  Personally I'd keep looking


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## Bill Mattocks

ballen0351 said:


> I dont know if its a red flag but I wouldn't pay it.  Personally I'd keep looking


 Yep, me too.


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## Spinoza

I'm leaning that direction. It's one of only two Wing Chun schools in the area, so I'm curious. I may just jump on LinkedIn or something and see if I know some of the people who already go there and talk to them personally.


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## Bill Mattocks

Why ask us then.


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## Spinoza

Like I said, just curious if it is a red flag for unprofessional practices. I have less than a year of experience in this stuff, so it is useful to hear from peer consumers.


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## Bill Mattocks

Which you then ignore. Interesting.


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## Spinoza

I've been been given two pieces of advice so far and I haven't ignored either.


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## seasoned

Spinoza said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I've only had a few months of martial arts experience, and I've recently had to move to a new city. *I'm having a lot of difficulty finding a school that matches with my previous experience, *so I've expanded my search to include other traditions.
> 
> One school has really piqued my interest, and I reached out to schedule in introductory session, but they charge $25 dollars for such a session. Is this a red flag? I won't be able to find out what their monthly fees are unless I meet with them . . . but I have to pay to meet with them, and as awesome as they may be, they may not be in my budget range. Now, I 100% understand meeting with a student and making sure your goals are aligned before discussing rates, but this is the first time I've encountered a martial arts school that charges for intros; however, that could just be due to my inexperience.


It sounds like you have a good idea what you're looking for from the above statement. I say go in before any paid meeting and check out some classes.


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## Spinoza

Great observation. My previous experience was in FMA, and a lot of my difficulty has consisted of classes that were too expensive or that seemed too machismo-driven. I should visit those classes instead of judging them based on dollar-specific fees (without seeing what they have to offer at that price, and without seeing if I can make some lifestyle changes to afford it) and instead of judging them based on online comments.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Honestly, if they don't let you even observe a class without paying, I wouldn't go, even if it was exactly what I wanted on paper. So much of joining a school/dojo is finding out whether or not your interests are aligned, and if they're making you pay for an introduction, their interests are probably money. Even if your interests do end up being aligned, there is a high chance that either their price range or schedule wouldn't work for you, at which point you've just wasted the 25 bucks.
Unless you happen to have a decent amount of money that you wouldn't notice the $25, then go for it.
Also, if I misread and they let you observe, and just charge for 'consultation' observe a class or two, and decide based on that whether or not you want to talk with them.


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## Hanzou

$25 a session. 

You can't observe a class w/o paying for it.

They won't tell you how much it is a month UNLESS you pay for it.

Yeah, those are some pretty massive red flags.


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## Spinoza

No, they charge for the first class in general. There isn't an option for simple observation. And I'm finding myself agreeing. I'm incredibly interested in their tradition, but charging for a visitation? That seems questionable to me. Yes, in general, I could pay $25 without being pained, but it doesn't inspire confidence that the payment is necessary to begin with.


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## Spinoza

Bill Mattocks said:


> Why ask us then.


Because I'm interested in input from fellow consumers? Is this controversial on these forums?


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## JowGaWolf

Spinoza said:


> I won't be able to find out what their monthly fees are unless I meet with them . . . but I have to pay to meet with them


 This is a red flag for me.  I can understand paying a small fee for a session, but I wouldn't pay just have a conversation with someone about me joining them.  I definitely wouldn't join if they weren't willing to tell me the monthly prices. 



Spinoza said:


> and as awesome as they may be,


 I'm not sure what you think is awesome, but if it was that awesome they wouldn't need to charge $25 just to meet. 

What would be awesome is if you pay $25 only to have the school to tell you that you aren't a good fit and they don't want to train you.  But hey.. what's $25


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## Spinoza

Another great point, JowGaWolf. I think I may be comparing too much of this to my experience as a business analyst. I'd charge for a visitation in my line of work, but that's a little different.


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## Touch Of Death

Spinoza said:


> I've been been given two pieces of advice so far and I haven't ignored either.


Pay the money. Yes you will be asked to join, in the end, but you can say no.


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## Buka

Red flag?

Yup.


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## ballen0351

I could see maybe 25 bucks to weed out the tire kickers then taking 25 off your first-month payment.  I don't like that they wont tell you monthly fees over the phone that seems to be very common now.  I guess its to get you in to do a full sales pitch but its annoying


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## Langenschwert

It's a red flag but an an irredeemable one. I would be cautious. Most schools allow a free class. That they don't is a bit odd. If they have a variety of pricing structures I can understand them not wanting to discuss it over the phone because it's a pain.

$25 a class is either good or not. Rental spaces are expensive. Our club charges a $20 drop in fee. We couldn't keep the doors open for less... none of the instructors get paid, but rent and insurance add up.


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## Chris Parker

Spinoza said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I've only had a few months of martial arts experience, and I've recently had to move to a new city. I'm having a lot of difficulty finding a school that matches with my previous experience, so I've expanded my search to include other traditions.
> 
> One school has really piqued my interest, and I reached out to schedule in introductory session, but they charge $25 dollars for such a session. Is this a red flag? I won't be able to find out what their monthly fees are unless I meet with them . . . but I have to pay to meet with them, and as awesome as they may be, they may not be in my budget range. Now, I 100% understand meeting with a student and making sure your goals are aligned before discussing rates, but this is the first time I've encountered a martial arts school that charges for intros; however, that could just be due to my inexperience.



Just to put an alternate view out there…

I charge for a trial class. So no, I don't consider it a "red flag" at all… but here's the thing… there has to be a good reason for it. I think it's a lot rarer in the States, based on the responses here, I haven't had any real negative responses to the policy at all. That said, what I recommend to all prospective students is that they first watch a class (obviously no fee attached to that!) to get an idea of what the classes are like, and then, if they like what they see, to come back for a trial class. This is at a (slightly) reduced fee (which is also put towards the months fees if the student becomes a member), to see how they feel in the group itself.

When it comes to reasons for the fee, well, I won't give the biggest one here… but I will say that, due to rent costs, insurance, and so on, the fee does help cover that.


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## Tez3

Presumably they don't charge to meet them so go, see what they are like, ask if you can watch for free then make your mind up. It could be a fantastic place that you love, better to have a look than miss the chance it could be great. If it's pants well, you'll know and carry on looking.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Chris Parker said:


> I charge for a trial class. So no, I don't consider it a "red flag" at all… but here's the thing… there has to be a good reason for it. I think it's a lot rarer in the States, based on the responses here, I haven't had any real negative responses to the policy at all. That said, what I recommend to all prospective students is that they first watch a class (obviously no fee attached to that!) to get an idea of what the classes are like, and then, if they like what they see, to come back for a trial class.



My issue with it isn't charging for the trial class-I can understand why you might do that though it is odd here. My issue is that they charge to simply observe a class or find out how much they will be paying.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Spinoza said:


> Because I'm interested in input from fellow consumers? Is this controversial on these forums?



Seems like a perfectly reasonable and non-controversial question to me...


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## Chris Parker

kempodisciple said:


> My issue with it isn't charging for the trial class-I can understand why you might do that though it is odd here. My issue is that they charge to simply observe a class or find out how much they will be paying.



Yep, agreed on that front, definitely.


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## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> My issue with it isn't charging for the trial class-I can understand why you might do that though it is odd here. My issue is that they charge to simply observe a class or find out how much they will be paying.



From what the OP said they charge for the first session, the introductory session. From what he said I don't think they charge to see them or just watch.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Spinoza said:


> I won't be able to find out what their monthly fees are unless I meet with them . . . but I have to pay to meet with them, and as awesome as they may be, they may not be in my budget range.





Tez3 said:


> From what the OP said they charge for the first session, the introductory session. From what he said I don't think they charge to see them or just watch.



I assumed it based on this sentence, although admittedly it doesn't mention anything about observation there. If he can observe, than I agree with your advice completely.


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## Touch Of Death

kempodisciple said:


> I assumed it based on this sentence, although admittedly it doesn't mention anything about observation there. If he can observe, than I agree with your advice completely.


It doesn't work that way; although, a parent may watch their own child take a lesson, the classes are closed to the public. I will let you know right now, they want to control the class in such a way that it is a big production. The lessons will be more than you want to pay, but given the obvious value of the program... (yada yada yada) You see, I've done this before. I was not the best enrolment director. LOL


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## Tony Dismukes

If this is accurate...


Spinoza said:


> I won't be able to find out what their monthly fees are unless I meet with them . . . but I have to pay *to meet with them*



...then I would consider it a huge red flag. I'm not a fan of paying up front without being able to see what I'm getting.

If they were charging for the trial session but were willing to meet, discuss fees, and allow the student to watch a class without charging, then it wouldn't be such a red flag. It would still be unusually expensive if they're charging $25 per class, but at least the student could decide ahead of time if the training is worth it.


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## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> It doesn't work that way; although, a parent may watch their own child take a lesson, the classes are closed to the public. I will let you know right now, they want to control the class in such a way that it is a big production. The lessons will be more than you want to pay, but given the obvious value of the program... (yada yada yada) You see, I've done this before. I was not the best enrolment director. LOL



Though to be honest you can't say for sure it's that way with this one. To get to see us in training you need to answer some security questions, get a pass for your car and for yourself. Sometimes you will be  searched as will your car, sometimes you won't be allowed in!
We are cheap though.


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## Spinoza

I was able to get a hold of them on the phone and confirm that they do not allow people to come watch a class for free. The only way to find out more information is by signing up for the intro class.


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## Touch Of Death

I'm fairly certain, but I was wrong, once, on a Jeopardy question, but they came back later, and corrected their error, on the next episode.


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## Touch Of Death

Spinoza said:


> I was able to get a hold of them on the phone and confirm that they do not allow people to come watch a class for free. The only way to find out more information is by signing up for the intro class.


They don't bite. Just get ready for a show.


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## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm fairly certain, but I was wrong, once, on a Jeopardy question, but they came back later, and corrected their error, on the next episode.



Daft bugger


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## jks9199

Langenschwert said:


> It's a red flag but an an irredeemable one. I would be cautious. Most schools allow a free class. That they don't is a bit odd. If they have a variety of pricing structures I can understand them not wanting to discuss it over the phone because it's a pain.
> 
> $25 a class is either good or not. Rental spaces are expensive. Our club charges a $20 drop in fee. We couldn't keep the doors open for less... none of the instructors get paid, but rent and insurance add up.


I haven't checked out open mat fees lately, but a $20-25 guest pass/drop in fee isn't unreasonable at a gym.  Bills have to be paid, the lesson takes time, etc.  Sure, lots of places offer a free trial class, but that's a tool to get you in, like a "free vacation weekend" at a timeshare.  So, I can see the fee, especially if it's paired with a "we'll knock if off the first month if you sign up" deal, like ballen mentioned.  It's a point to look at, not an automatic disqualifier.


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## kuniggety

While paying for intro classes isn't usual in the US, since they're trying to entice people to try it out, I don't see it as a red flag. The only thing I think is weird is that you can't watch a class. Personally, I've never seen a school like that.


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## JowGaWolf

kempodisciple said:


> My issue with it isn't charging for the trial class-I can understand why you might do that though it is odd here. My issue is that they charge to simply observe a class or find out how much they will be paying.


I think this is where many of us are drawing the line.  Out of all the schools that are out there, I'm sure that one isn't the best by far.


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## Danny T

Spinoza said:


> Hello all,
> 
> 
> One school has really piqued my interest, and I reached out to schedule in introductory session, but they charge $25 dollars for such a session. Is this a red flag? I won't be able to find out what their monthly fees are unless I meet with them . . . but I have to pay to meet with them, and as awesome as they may be, they may not be in my budget range. Now, I 100% understand meeting with a student and making sure your goals are aligned before discussing rates, but this is the first time I've encountered a martial arts school that charges for intros; however, that could just be due to my inexperience.


I know of numerous facilities that charge $20 to $30 for an intro session and they are excellent places for training. The intro isn't just a meet and greet. It is time spent getting to understand your goals as well actually having a one on one 25-30 minute private lesson. This allows you to evaluate the school and the instruction, the instructor gets to evaluate you and make recommendations as to what membership options best suit your goals. It gives us an insight into the individuals attitude toward taking instruction, their comfort level learning something new, how they learn and which of our programs and which of our instructors are probably the best fit for them especially as a beginner. 
We also do not discuss prices until the perspective student attends an intro session. We charge for the intro and if the person signs up we credit that cost to the enrollment fee. So they get it back.

As for a 'show' that Touch of Death speaks of I'm not certain what he is referring to.


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## Touch Of Death

Danny T said:


> I know of numerous facilities that charge $20 to $30 for an intro session and they are excellent places for training. The intro isn't just a meet and greet. It is time spent getting to understand your goals as well actually having a one on one 25-30 minute private lesson. This allows you to evaluate the school and the instruction, the instructor gets to evaluate you and make recommendations as to what membership options best suit your goals. It gives us an insight into the individuals attitude toward taking instruction, their comfort level learning something new, how they learn and which of our programs and which of our instructors are probably the best fit for them especially as a beginner.
> We also do not discuss prices until the perspective student attends an intro session. We charge for the intro and if the person signs up we credit that cost to the enrollment fee. So they get it back.
> 
> As for a 'show' that Touch of Death speaks of I'm not certain what he is referring to.


Exactly what you just said.


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## Touch Of Death

For anyone un-familiar with the English language, show and presentation mean the same thing.


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## Danny T

Touch Of Death said:


> For anyone un-familiar with the English language, show and presentation mean the same thing.


The definition for show meaning presentation is as in a spectacle; something unusual or very shocking.
We do no such thing. In fact what we have the intro student is some of the very same things they will be doing in their first classes. Nothing special or unusual or shocking. They will do some kicking, some punching, some kneeing, some elbows, some exercises, we cover where they put their things, where to assemble in the class and line up. They hear some of the instruction commands and have an introduction to our customs and class etiquette. An orientation as well as information gathering for both the student and the instructor.


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## Touch Of Death

Danny T said:


> The definition for show meaning presentation is as in a spectacle; something unusual or very shocking.
> We do no such thing. In fact what we have the intro student is some of the very same things they will be doing in their first classes. Nothing special or unusual or shocking. They will do some kicking, some punching, some kneeing, some elbows, some exercises, we cover where they put their things, where to assemble in the class and line up. They hear some of the instruction commands and have an introduction to our customs and class etiquette. An orientation as well as information gathering for both the student and the instructor.


That my, friend, is unusual, for a novice. Perhaps I am too blunt, and therefore, not the greatest enrollment director.  It is a show. I am not saying, you are making a spectacle of yourself, but showmanship is part of selling a program.


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## RTKDCMB

Charging for an intro class is unusual but not necessarily a red flag but charging money to watch a class is a bit of a red flag. The logical next question to ask is are they teaching their class in an area on private property or is it in a public hall or something similar? If it is in a public hall then I don't really see a way they can legally prevent you from observing unless they close the doors.

There is a certain disadvantage to telling potential students the fees and that is that sometimes they may take one look at them and decide they don't want to join before they even look at the class whereas if they observe a class first and then learn of the fees they may decide the class is worth training in despite the fees.


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## Touch Of Death

RTKDCMB said:


> Charging for an intro class is unusual but not necessarily a red flag but charging money to watch a class is a bit of a red flag. The logical next question to ask is are they teaching their class in an area on private property or is it in a public hall or something similar? If it is in a public hall then I don't really see a way they can legally prevent you from observing unless they close the doors.
> 
> There is a certain disadvantage to telling potential students the fees and that is that sometimes they may take one look at them and decide they don't want to join before they even look at the class whereas if they observe a class first and then learn of the fees they may decide the class is worth training in despite the fees.


The school has more control of the... um... production.


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## RTKDCMB

Touch Of Death said:


> The school has more control of the... um... production.


Or show.


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## WaterGal

I'm familiar with some places that charge like $20+ to do an intro, which I think is a private lesson and a regular class and a sales pitch.  But these are also places that are in a storefront retail type space, so there's no way they can prevent people from looking in their window and watching classes.

That you can't even watch a class or talk to anyone without paying money seems like a red flag to me.  That almost seems like potential cult territory.


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## Touch Of Death

WaterGal said:


> I'm familiar with some places that charge like $20+ to do an intro, which I think is a private lesson and a regular class and a sales pitch.  But these are also places that are in a storefront retail type space, so there's no way they can prevent people from looking in their window and watching classes.
> 
> That you can't even watch a class or talk to anyone without paying money seems like a red flag to me.  That almost seems like potential cult territory.


These intros, also, help weed out the people that may talk like that around their students.


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## Spinoza

Just an update: I forgot to mention last time that the "Intro class" consists of two sessions rather than one. The whole thing still unnerves me a little, but I happened to win a gift card at work for $25 today . . . I'm not the most superstitious guy, but hey, why not give it a try at this point? Maybe the school has a legitimate reason, like those given by the business owners in this thread, or maybe it won't. Either way, I've blown $25 on far less worthwhile pursuits. In the very least, I'll get a good "show," I'll get a little bit of a workout, I might learn a few useful things and I'll generally have a more productive day than I would have watching Netflix. Thanks for all of the advice, folks!

In the meantime, I've found a few schools that allow me to check them out for free, and I'll be trying to make the rest of the rest week or so just as productive.


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## lklawson

Spinoza said:


> Just an update: I forgot to mention last time that the "Intro class" consists of two sessions rather than one. The whole thing still unnerves me a little, but I happened to win a gift card at work for $25 today . . . I'm not the most superstitious guy, but hey, why not give it a try at this point? Maybe the school has a legitimate reason, like those given by the business owners in this thread, or maybe it won't. Either way, I've blown $25 on far less worthwhile pursuits. In the very least, I'll get a good "show," I'll get a little bit of a workout, I might learn a few useful things and I'll generally have a more productive day than I would have watching Netflix. Thanks for all of the advice, folks!
> 
> In the meantime, I've found a few schools that allow me to check them out for free, and I'll be trying to make the rest of the rest week or so just as productive.


What is the name & website of this school.  I'm curious.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Spinoza

It's Moy Yat Ving Tsung Kung Fu Academy (Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung Fu - Austin, Texas). I've filled out their form and am waiting for a replay. There was another Wing Chun class I visited, and it was I was really impressed, but it was outside of my budget.


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## lklawson

Spinoza said:


> It's Moy Yat Ving Tsung Kung Fu Academy (Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung Fu - Austin, Texas). I've filled out their form and am waiting for a replay. There was another Wing Chun class I visited, and it was I was really impressed, but it was outside of my budget.


Thank you.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

OK, so I hit the website listed and emailed the link.

Bottom Line Up Front:
I would be *VERY* hesitant to recommend this school.

So here's what happened.  I emailed them.  This is the email and the replies.  I'll put what I wrote in blue and the reply in red.  I'll order them sequentially, from first to last.


To: sarah vyvial <sarah@txkungfu.com>
From: Kirk Lawson
Subject: Watch a class
Sent: On Jan 7, 2016, at 11:13 AM 

I might be in the area in the near future and would like to stop in and quietly watch a class from the sidelines if I may.

If I end up being in the area, would it be OK if I am quiet and unobtrusive, not distracting the participants?

Thank you,
Kirk Lawson


From: sarah vyvial [mailto:sarah@txkungfu.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 12:26 PM
To: Kirk Lawson
Subject: Re: Watch a class

Hello Kirk,

May I ask why you are interested in watching a class? 

Simo Sarah Vyvial


From: Kirk Lawson
Sent: Jan 7, 2016, at 1:20 PM
To: sarah vyvial <sarah@txkungfu.com>
Subject: Re: Watch a class

It is, apparently, the common recommendation that I watch a class or
two, an observer, to see what the classes and school are like, before
taking any classes, introductory or otherwise.  I guess it just helps
me learn the personality of a school

Thank you,
Kirk Lawson



From: sarah vyvial [mailto:sarah@txkungfu.com]

Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 5:28 PM
To: Kirk Lawson
Subject: Re: Watch a class

Hello Kirk, 

That common recommendation does not apply to our school. I'm sure there are plenty of schools that allow observations, but we are not your typical martial arts school. 

In the Moy Yat/Moy Tung schools it is required that all prospective students go through an introduction prior to being invited to a regular class. If you are hesitant about spending the $25 for a two-day introduction, we have a Facebook page and a YouTube channel that you can check out to get a feel for what we do. 

We do not allow observations in the adult classes for the safety of our students and the public. Also, nobody likes being watched and we care more about our current students than trying to gain new students during their class time. If you become a student at our school, you will appreciate that we do not allow people to randomly sit in on our classes to observe.

If you are interested in learning more about our school, going through our introductory program is the best way to experience what we have to offer. 

Sincerely, 
Simo Sarah Vyvial 
512-924-1931

www.txkungfu.com

www.facebook.com/txkungfu


This is, frankly, laughable.  It's beyond a massively huge red flag.  If you paid me to go there, I might do it just on a lark.  But I would never go give them so much as a single crumpled up dirty dollar bill without being able to observe a class or two first.

Don't walk, run!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Spinoza

That's awesome, Kirk!

Thanks for going out of your way there. The conversations I had with them on the phone had been a little more polite than that, but not much. I was willing to brush it off as the instructor having a bad day, but it looks like this may be more indicative of the instructor's attitude in general.

They still haven't responded to the form I filled out requesting an introductory class, and I think I know why: I was planning on paying them the day of the class, but the online form requests that applicants pay online/upfront using Square. I didn't do that, so that's probably why they haven't responded. I'm not going to commit with my money without some commitment in return on the scheduling of the course.

Oh well, that just means I can use my gift card toward whatever uniform I need for the class I settle down in. Luckily there isn't a shortage of good classes around here. Honestly, the attitude with which instructors and classmates approach their art matters more to me than the specific style.

Bullet dodged.


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## Touch Of Death

No, those were lessons dodged.


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## Touch Of Death

If the money is an issue, they just weeded you out.


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## Touch Of Death

lklawson said:


> OK, so I hit the website listed and emailed the link.
> 
> Bottom Line Up Front:
> I would be *VERY* hesitant to recommend this school.
> 
> So here's what happened.  I emailed them.  This is the email and the replies.  I'll put what I wrote in blue and the reply in red.  I'll order them sequentially, from first to last.
> 
> 
> To: sarah vyvial <sarah@txkungfu.com>
> From: Kirk Lawson
> Subject: Watch a class
> Sent: On Jan 7, 2016, at 11:13 AM
> 
> I might be in the area in the near future and would like to stop in and quietly watch a class from the sidelines if I may.
> 
> If I end up being in the area, would it be OK if I am quiet and unobtrusive, not distracting the participants?
> 
> Thank you,
> Kirk Lawson
> 
> 
> From: sarah vyvial [mailto:sarah@txkungfu.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 12:26 PM
> To: Kirk Lawson
> Subject: Re: Watch a class
> 
> Hello Kirk,
> 
> May I ask why you are interested in watching a class?
> 
> Simo Sarah Vyvial
> 
> 
> From: Kirk Lawson
> Sent: Jan 7, 2016, at 1:20 PM
> To: sarah vyvial <sarah@txkungfu.com>
> Subject: Re: Watch a class
> 
> It is, apparently, the common recommendation that I watch a class or
> two, an observer, to see what the classes and school are like, before
> taking any classes, introductory or otherwise.  I guess it just helps
> me learn the personality of a school
> 
> Thank you,
> Kirk Lawson
> 
> 
> 
> From: sarah vyvial [mailto:sarah@txkungfu.com]
> 
> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 5:28 PM
> To: Kirk Lawson
> Subject: Re: Watch a class
> 
> Hello Kirk,
> 
> That common recommendation does not apply to our school. I'm sure there are plenty of schools that allow observations, but we are not your typical martial arts school.
> 
> In the Moy Yat/Moy Tung schools it is required that all prospective students go through an introduction prior to being invited to a regular class. If you are hesitant about spending the $25 for a two-day introduction, we have a Facebook page and a YouTube channel that you can check out to get a feel for what we do.
> 
> We do not allow observations in the adult classes for the safety of our students and the public. Also, nobody likes being watched and we care more about our current students than trying to gain new students during their class time. If you become a student at our school, you will appreciate that we do not allow people to randomly sit in on our classes to observe.
> 
> If you are interested in learning more about our school, going through our introductory program is the best way to experience what we have to offer.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Simo Sarah Vyvial
> 512-924-1931
> 
> www.txkungfu.com
> 
> www.facebook.com/txkungfu
> 
> 
> This is, frankly, laughable.  It's beyond a massively huge red flag.  If you paid me to go there, I might do it just on a lark.  But I would never go give them so much as a single crumpled up dirty dollar bill without being able to observe a class or two first.
> 
> Don't walk, run!
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


You see, what you just did here was called a shop. That is when a martial artist trolls another schools intro program. They can almost smell it. You weren't serious, and would have been a waste of their time.


----------



## lklawson

Oh, and, just to add more fuel to the fire, I believe that the claim that Moy Yat schools do not allow prospective students to observe classes is, ah..., "stretching the truth."  I had a buddy who was studying under Benny Meng in Dayton (Huber Heights).  Meng is a Moy Yat lineage instructor.  I'm not affiliated with the school at all and I certainly never paid any money, yet I went in and watched my pal take his early tests.  Occasionally, I drive by and see classes being conducted through the giant picture window.  It's almost as if Meng's doesn't have anything to hide.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Touch Of Death said:


> You see, what you just did here was called a shop. That is when a martial artist trolls another schools intro program. They can almost smell it. You weren't serious, and would have been a waste of their time.


I teach both Judo and Western Martial Arts, and taught WMA out a Fencing salle on Sundays for a good while, and I don't care a whit someone wants to come in and see what we're doing, even if it is a "shop."

Maybe I can make a good contact, trade seminars, or just illustrate that what we're doing isn't bogus hand-waving.  So what if they want to "troll the intro program?"  Maybe they're charging too dang much or [fill in the blank].  If I'm friendly, polite, and respectful, then I make a good impression on the "shop."  If they go away and talk bad about me & my stuff, then they were going to do so anyway.  No loss.

Feel free to observe a couple of my classes.  There's no secrets and I'll be more than happy to explain what we're doing.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Touch Of Death

lklawson said:


> I teach both Judo and Western Martial Arts, and taught WMA out a Fencing salle on Sundays for a good while, and I don't care a whit someone wants to come in and see what we're doing, even if it is a "shop."
> 
> Maybe I can make a good contact, trade seminars, or just illustrate that what we're doing isn't bogus hand-waving.  So what if they want to "troll the intro program?"  Maybe they're charging too dang much or [fill in the blank].  If I'm friendly, polite, and respectful, then I make a good impression on the "shop."  If they go away and talk bad about me & my stuff, then they were going to do so anyway.  No loss.
> 
> Feel free to observe a couple of my classes.  There's no secrets and I'll be more than happy to explain what we're doing.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Um well, I'd start trying to tell you how. LOL


----------



## Touch Of Death

Anyways, high prices, will both pay the bills, and keep the school above the reach of poor people's kids. It is terrible, I know, but the more your are willing to charge the smaller your demographic becomes. I am just saying. LOL


----------



## lklawson

Touch Of Death said:


> Um well, I'd start trying to tell you how. LOL


Truthfully, I'd probably listen.  An exchange of information is often helpful, or at the very least entertaining.

In Judo, for instance, there's at least 4 different variation of every darn throw, not including the old "pre-war" style which is often, well... "less friendly."  For instance, there's the "stomping the floor" variation of O Soto Gari.  I'm familiar with it from old Boxing manuals (yes, really) and from Danzan Ryu, but I'd never seen it in Judo before a friend sent me a link to a very old B&W film.  Who knows what else?

Or Bowie Knife.  Gosh, there's no "proven lineage" for Bowie knife going back to Jim himself so there's lots and lots of variations and useful stuff out there.  Why wouldn't anyone want compare notes?  

If you're ever in the Dayton, Ohio area, my WMA club is on Tuesday nights from 6-8, out of my garage, affectionately nicknamed "The Carport of Calamity."  Please do stop in and say hello.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Touch Of Death

lklawson said:


> Truthfully, I'd probably listen.  An exchange of information is often helpful, or at the very least entertaining.
> 
> In Judo, for instance, there's at least 4 different variation of every darn throw, not including the old "pre-war" style which is often, well... "less friendly."  For instance, there's the "stomping the floor" variation of O Soto Gari.  I'm familiar with it from old Boxing manuals (yes, really) and from Danzan Ryu, but I'd never seen it in Judo before a friend sent me a link to a very old B&W film.  Who knows what else?
> 
> Or Bowie Knife.  Gosh, there's no "proven lineage" for Bowie knife going back to Jim himself so there's lots and lots of variations and useful stuff out there.  Why wouldn't anyone want compare notes?
> 
> If you're ever in the Dayton, Ohio area, my WMA club is on Tuesday nights from 6-8, out of my garage, affectionately nicknamed "The Carport of Calamity."  Please do stop in and say hello.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Actually, I would love to, but I'm stuck all the way up here in Spokane Falls Washington with the polar bears; so, no time soon.


----------



## JowGaWolf

lklawson said:


> In the Moy Yat/Moy Tung schools it is required that all prospective students go through an introduction prior to being invited to a regular class. If you are hesitant about spending the $25 for a two-day introduction, we have a Facebook page and a YouTube channel that you can check out to get a feel for what we do.


 This should have been the only response given.  The other reasons that were given for this policy is what made me feel uneasy as well as the tone of the email.  



Touch Of Death said:


> That is when a martial artist trolls another schools intro program. They can almost smell it. You weren't serious, and would have been a waste of their time.


Talking to people is not a waste of time.  The time spent throwing the attitude in the email, they could have simply said that drop in observations are not allowed by policy set by the school or the or the association that the school belongs to.  That should have been the first answer in the email.  If they don't want to answer questions like this then they should utilized  FAQs and have the answer to this question on their website.

If a person is serious enough to come by your school to watch to see what you are doing then they at least have an interest in what you do.  It could also be that someone who is more familiar with martial arts is checking the school out for someone else.  The only thing they actually accomplished with the email was to weed out the potential student who was actually thinking about doing the introductory class and has a real interest in learning the fighting system.


----------



## Touch Of Death

JowGaWolf said:


> This should have been the only response given.  The other reasons that were given for this policy is what made me feel uneasy as well as the tone of the email.
> 
> Talking to people is not a waste of time.  The time spent throwing the attitude in the email, they could have simply said that drop in observations are not allowed by policy set by the school or the or the association that the school belongs to.  That should have been the first answer in the email.  If they don't want to answer questions like this then they should utilized  FAQs and have the answer to this question on their website.
> 
> If a person is serious enough to come by your school to watch to see what you are doing then they at least have an interest in what you do.  It could also be that someone who is more familiar with martial arts is checking the school out for someone else.  The only thing they actually accomplished with the email was to weed out the potential student who was actually thinking about doing the introductory class and has a real interest in learning the fighting system.


Maybe.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

lklawson said:


> Sincerely,
> *Simo* Sarah Vyvial


I was curious about the "Simo" title and looked it up, since I hadn't encountered it before. (I'm familiar with "Sifu", "Sigung", "Sijo", etc). Apparently it's the title for the _wife_ of an instructor, who may or may not have any knowledge of the art being taught herself. For the CMA practitioners - is this sort of honorific commonly used in the U.S.? It seems a little odd.

So far I haven't found an equivalent title for the husband of the Sifu, if the Sifu happens to be female (or gay).


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tony Dismukes said:


> I was curious about the "Simo" title and looked it up, since I hadn't encountered it before. (I'm familiar with "Sifu", "Sigung", "Sijo", etc). Apparently it's the title for the _wife_ of an instructor, who may or may not have any knowledge of the art being taught herself. For the CMA practitioners - is this sort of honorific commonly used in the U.S.? It seems a little odd.
> 
> So far I haven't found an equivalent title for the husband of the Sifu, if the Sifu happens to be female (or gay).


Deep Thoughts, by Tony Dismukes...


----------



## drop bear

We just had two guys on holidays come in for a trial session. Which was coincidentally sparring. They were never going to be students. 

But we all had fun.  And it did not cost us anything.

My advice for a prospective student is to fin a club that opens itself to the wider martial art community.

It is just nicer to be a part of that.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tony Dismukes said:


> For the CMA practitioners - is this sort of honorific commonly used in the U.S.?


 This is totally traditional Chinese martial art culture.  We addressed my Sifu's wife the same way.  Sifu - translated is actually closer to father than teacher so if you think of a Sifu as being a father figure then Simo will make sense.  This kind of goes back to a conversation in another thread where we were saying that Kung fu was more of a family type group. Then you have the big brother big sister titles as well.

As for the female teacher.  From what I understand she will be referred to as Sifu from what I was able to find (not sure how accurate) the husband of a Sifu would be called "si-jeong"


----------



## jks9199

H'mmm....

I can respect, to an extent, the idea that they're more concerned with their own students training and with safety in the training hall than a prospective student.  I've heard it expressed more elegantly in some discussions of Japanese koryu arts and some more traditional Japanese dojos.  (I think Dave Lowry wrote something about it...) 

And, like I've said, I can understand a mat fee or "intro class fee" especially if credited to the regular fees upon registration.  Lights have to be lit, rent paid, and insurance purchased, after all...  

In fact, I could even see where insurance requirements might greatly restrict observers, with some arts. Mostly weapon arts.  Along the lines of "customers aren't permitted in the shop" stuff, and if there just was limited space.  I could even by the limited space argument... Or a "we only allow visitors at the Tuesday class session" thing...

But...

I don't get "Nope, no way, no how, no observers" attitude.  It just smacks of "we've got something to hide."  I mean, I might be someone training in that style who just wants to come by and observe how a different school trains...

Personally, we welcome visitors.  We're generally open to a prospective student visiting a time or two, and we'll generally let them try a class out for free.  If it seems like they're lingering around, hovering, but no really making a decision one way or the other about joining, we might push a bit... but I can really only think of one or two times in 30-ish years that we've had to do that.


----------



## Danny T

From what I have been told by my Sifu (from Hong Kong) 
The term Sifu, when applied to a Kung Fu school, is the head of the school. Has nothing to do with one being an instructor in the school. Traditionally is the head of the school. Being the head of the school there is only one Sifu to a school. It is used more as term of endearment rather then a title. If Sifu has a wife she is known as Simo which has nothing to do with her having any skills in the martial arts where she has any or not.  There is no term for the husband of a Sifu when that position is a female.
Of course this has changed within the western cultures.


----------



## Dirty Dog

In what universe is watching a class dangerous for either the observer or the student? 
And "nobody wants to be watched?"
ROFL


----------



## jks9199

Dirty Dog said:


> In what universe is watching a class dangerous for either the observer or the student?
> And "nobody wants to be watched?"
> ROFL


It's a bit of a stretch, but I could see maybe a weapons class, especially if they're actually making contact, like sparring with boken or sticks, could be seen as dangerous to spectators due to flying chunks of broken sticks.

Like I said -- a stretch and iffy, but I could see an overcautious liability minded insurance company or the like making a call like that.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Dirty Dog said:


> In what universe is watching a class dangerous for either the observer or the student?
> And "nobody wants to be watched?"
> ROFL


 ha ha ha.. So I guess this situation would be dangerous.  All of those bodies in the room probably do a good job in sucking up all the oxygen.





This is actually from the school in question. 





I know Wing Chun is a close quarters fighting system but dang.lol  All it takes is someone to fart and they all die lol.


----------



## JowGaWolf

jks9199 said:


> It's a bit of a stretch, but I could see maybe a weapons class, especially if they're actually making contact, like sparring with boken or sticks, could be seen as dangerous to spectators due to flying chunks of broken sticks.
> 
> Like I said -- a stretch and iffy, but I could see an overcautious liability minded insurance company or the like making a call like that.


  From the size of those rooms posted in the videos, I'm pretty sure they do weapons training outside for the public to see (as shown in some of their pictures) lol.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Regarding the second video, is it normal to put that little rotation/power in the punches for wing chun? I can't imagine any of those punches actually hurting me...


----------



## Dirty Dog

jks9199 said:


> It's a bit of a stretch, but I could see maybe a weapons class, especially if they're actually making contact, like sparring with boken or sticks, could be seen as dangerous to spectators due to flying chunks of broken sticks.
> 
> Like I said -- a stretch and iffy, but I could see an overcautious liability minded insurance company or the like making a call like that.



I'd say it's a hugggghhhheeee stretch. 
Isn't most stick fighting done with rattan? One of the nice things about rattan is that it's fibrous. It doesn't break. It just get mushy. 
And when was the last time you saw anyone doing full contact work with broken? Or saw one break?

If the SCA and similar groups can get insurance that allows spectators, I'm skeptical that a school couldn't. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


----------



## drop bear

Martial art has often thrived on the notion that they have the secret to the real deadly.

Sorry guys the secret is out.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Martial art has often thrived on the notion that they have the secret to the real deadly.
> 
> Sorry guys the secret is out.


 That's ole skool.  These days it's about the color of a belt that helps the school thrive.


----------



## WaterGal

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd say it's a hugggghhhheeee stretch.
> Isn't most stick fighting done with rattan? One of the nice things about rattan is that it's fibrous. It doesn't break. It just get mushy.
> And when was the last time you saw anyone doing full contact work with broken? Or saw one break?
> 
> If the SCA and similar groups can get insurance that allows spectators, I'm skeptical that a school couldn't.



I have seen a rattan bo break, but it just broke in half, it didn't have pieces flying everywhere.  And yeah, who spars with bokken?  That's why you have shinai.  The slats on the shinai can break, but they stay attached to the sword. 

I can't see weapons training being dangerous to observers unless you're using live blades or loaded firearms, which I doubt you could get insurance to cover even for your students, since it's just asking for someone to get hurt/killed.


----------



## WaterGal

jks9199 said:


> I don't get "Nope, no way, no how, no observers" attitude.  It just smacks of "we've got something to hide."  I mean, I might be someone training in that style who just wants to come by and observe how a different school trains...
> 
> Personally, we welcome visitors.  We're generally open to a prospective student visiting a time or two, and we'll generally let them try a class out for free.  If it seems like they're lingering around, hovering, but no really making a decision one way or the other about joining, we might push a bit... but I can really only think of one or two times in 30-ish years that we've had to do that.



Yeah, we're much the same way.  If someone wants to watch, that's totally fine as long as they're not being disruptive. We're in a shopping center with a takeout place, and we often get people who walk down and look in the window while waiting for their food, and we'll wave them in and give them information about the school.  We've had at least one person sign up from that.  And we encourage people to take a free trial class, as long they have a good attitude (don't seem like the kind of people that just want to fight and hurt people).  

My feeling is that transparency and openness are a form of marketing - if people look in and see people doing cool stuff, if they come in and are welcomed warmly, it makes us look like a good place to train.  

Being secretive doesn't help, unless you want to create some cult-like atmosphere of "our secret ninja training makes us the most deadly Real Street Warriors with our no-touch knockouts" that most people would laugh at.


----------



## Tez3

We don't allow people to just turn up and watch ( not that they can just turn up), you have to phone us and tell us when you want come, then we will make arrangements for you, it will involve being escorted at all times and we can't have non Brits in unless they are accredited military from an allied country.


----------



## jks9199

Tez3 said:


> We don't allow people to just turn up and watch ( not that they can just turn up), you have to phone us and tell us when you want come, then we will make arrangements for you, it will involve being escorted at all times and we can't have non Brits in unless they are accredited military from an allied country.


But aren't those rules driven by the facility, not the teacher?  I have an acquaintance who teaches in an FBI office; non-LE (and really, non-FBI) visitors need advance planning...


----------



## Tez3

jks9199 said:


> But aren't those rules driven by the facility, not the teacher?  I have an acquaintance who teaches in an FBI office; non-LE (and really, non-FBI) visitors need advance planning...



Absolutely! It does make a good excuse not to let people watch though lol. It's more that we don't have room and many of us don't really like being watched when we are breathing through our **** during training lol.

Here now because of child protection policies there's a lot of places know not just martial arts that won't allow adults to come and watch children's classes unless they are with a child who is potential student.


----------



## jks9199

Tez3 said:


> Here now because of child protection policies there's a lot of places know not just martial arts that won't allow adults to come and watch children's classes unless they are with a child who is potential student.


I don't know that I quite agree with that line -- though your child protection laws are undoubtedly different from ours.  I would think that the more open a setting is -- the less opportunity for something untoward to happen.  I know that's the philosophy that underlies the current rules in the Boy Scouts of America and also within functions at my church -- that kids aren't to be secluded with adults.


----------



## JowGaWolf

jks9199 said:


> I don't know that I quite agree with that line -- though your child protection laws are undoubtedly different from ours.  I would think that the more open a setting is -- the less opportunity for something untoward to happen.  I know that's the philosophy that underlies the current rules in the Boy Scouts of America and also within functions at my church -- that kids aren't to be secluded with adults.


  It's never good to be alone with someone else's kid like that even if the person is a good guy who would never harm a child.  Unfortunately not every kid is an angel and some children will lie to put an adult in trouble.   Not being alone is as much for protecting the adult as it is the child.  It's a win - win for both sides.  Children won't be taken advantage of and adults will be protected from a child who would want to lie.  When I was working in youth development it was always policy and employees were always warned and reminded that children aren't always truthful and some of the meanest lies will come from a child's mouth.  Open settings with multiple people children and adults is the safest environment all around.


----------



## Spinoza

Well, I'd like to thank everyone again for their input. I've visited about 10 schools to get an idea of what I would like to practice and with whom, and I've settled on a wonderful Judo program run as a nonprofit out of a local community center. As competitive as Judo can be, the students were extremely helpful towards one another and highly supportive of the students who weren't yet in as good of shape as the rest of the class (which will include me starting next weekend).


----------



## Tez3

jks9199 said:


> I don't know that I quite agree with that line -- though your child protection laws are undoubtedly different from ours.  I would think that the more open a setting is -- the less opportunity for something untoward to happen.  I know that's the philosophy that underlies the current rules in the Boy Scouts of America and also within functions at my church -- that kids aren't to be secluded with adults.




The parents are there with them, it's rare now that a sports class doesn't have parents watching. Adults who have nothing to do with the sport/activity or the children aren't allowed watch children's classes.


----------



## lklawson

Spinoza said:


> I've settled on a wonderful Judo program run as a nonprofit out of a local community center.


Perfect!  



> As competitive as Judo can be, the students were extremely helpful towards one another and highly supportive of the students who weren't yet in as good of shape as the rest of the class (which will include me starting next weekend).


Depends on the instructor(s) and the club's "personality."  Old (*OLD!*) School Judo used to be a lot less competitive from what I've read and been told.  Competition, way back then, was only one facet of Judo, not the entire art.  I recall finding an old BB Mag from the late '60s (ims) where a Judoka wrote in bemoaning how the Olympics had sportified Judo and the emphasis on competition was running off older Judoka who couldn't compete any more and people who just weren't interested in competition.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Chris Parker

jks9199 said:


> H'mmm....
> 
> I can respect, to an extent, the idea that they're more concerned with their own students training and with safety in the training hall than a prospective student.  I've heard it expressed more elegantly in some discussions of Japanese koryu arts and some more traditional Japanese dojos.  (I think Dave Lowry wrote something about it…)



Yeah… to be fair, I haven't come across anything quite to that degree in Koryu at all… sure, there can be more hoops to jump through (in order to watch a class, I went through a series of emails, and an "in person" sit down with the instructor away from the class to simply watch a training session… although I did get to watch more than most), but in the end, we want our arts to survive… which means new students at some point… which means people have to be let into the training. It needs to be approached the right way, but the email exchange that Kirk had…? Nah… nothing like that attitude… 



drop bear said:


> Martial art has often thrived on the notion that they have the secret to the real deadly.



Well… there's actually a lot more to it than that… 



drop bear said:


> Sorry guys the secret is out.



Not all of them… no. Of course, your personal perspective of what a martial art is can alter how you view this concept… 



Spinoza said:


> Well, I'd like to thank everyone again for their input. I've visited about 10 schools to get an idea of what I would like to practice and with whom, and I've settled on a wonderful Judo program run as a nonprofit out of a local community center. As competitive as Judo can be, the students were extremely helpful towards one another and highly supportive of the students who weren't yet in as good of shape as the rest of the class (which will include me starting next weekend).



Awesome!


----------



## Nate1010

I will never join one of those clubs again. Way to exspensive for what you get. At least in my experience. I started training at a gym that also host a mma camp. Part of the package is bjj and kickboxing as well as other classes all unlimited for a little over 50 per month. Best deal I have ever found. Also very laid back not traditional.


----------



## ballen0351

Nate1010 said:


> I will never join one of those clubs again. Way to exspensive for what you get. At least in my experience. I started training at a gym that also host a mma camp. Part of the package is bjj and kickboxing as well as other classes all unlimited for a little over 50 per month. Best deal I have ever found. Also very laid back not traditional.


Wow thats very cheap compared to here.  BJJ/MMA gyms are double to triple that rate


----------



## lklawson

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah… to be fair, I haven't come across anything quite to that degree in Koryu at all… sure, there can be more hoops to jump through (in order to watch a class, I went through a series of emails, and an "in person" sit down with the instructor away from the class to simply watch a training session… although I did get to watch more than most), but in the end, we want our arts to survive… which means new students at some point… which means people have to be let into the training. It needs to be approached the right way, but the email exchange that Kirk had…? Nah… nothing like that attitude…


I'm OK with some arts dying.

There are no secrets any more; at least not when it comes to fighting.  If someone wants to try to sell the mystique, well, good luck but I doubt that it's an art I would believe is worth preserving.  <shrug>  Each to his own, I guess.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Chris Parker

Eh, just different attitudes… honestly, it's not about mystique at all. But, as you say, to each their own.


----------



## Touch Of Death

lklawson said:


> I'm OK with some arts dying.
> 
> There are no secrets any more; at least not when it comes to fighting.  If someone wants to try to sell the mystique, well, good luck but I doubt that it's an art I would believe is worth preserving.  <shrug>  Each to his own, I guess.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Actually, I think there are secrets. Everyone does what they do for a reason, so, they are a master of their concern. In Kenpo, for instance, everyone does it differently, and everybody around them says they are awesome, but, I ain't seeing it, half the time, and neither does any other kenpoist. You try to tell them, and, they scoff at you. So, while nothing is a secret, you would never know it, in Kenpoland.  Nobody listens to the secret stuff, anyway.


----------



## Michael Shayne

I think it's a red flag....it's a business selling a product. Even most conglomerates have a free trial.

I don't believe anyone would pay a fee to test any other product.


----------



## Tez3

jks9199 said:


> I don't know that I quite agree with that line -- though your child protection laws are undoubtedly different from ours.  I would think that the more open a setting is -- the less opportunity for something untoward to happen.  I know that's the philosophy that underlies the current rules in the Boy Scouts of America and also within functions at my church -- that kids aren't to be secluded with adults.




We have parents in, nearly every child has a parent watching and we have adult students who come in to use the weight room. We don't have random adults coming in.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

kempodisciple said:


> Regarding the second video, is it normal to put that little rotation/power in the punches for wing chun? I can't imagine any of those punches actually hurting me...


WC punches don't use body/hip rotation. It does hurt their power compared to other arts, but skilled practitioners are able to utilize other body dynamics to generate some reasonable impact.

The ladies in that video were not skilled practitioners. I hope that they were all complete beginners, because their technique was pretty bad.


----------



## JR 137

Michael Shayne said:


> I think it's a red flag....it's a business selling a product. Even most conglomerates have a free trial.
> 
> I don't believe anyone would pay a fee to test any other product.



In a regular town and under regular conditions, I agree.  However...

My system's honbu (headquarters dojo) is in Manhattan.  They charge $25 for an intro lesson (rather, lessons).  You have to make an appointment because it's a series of 3 private lessons with an instructor.

Furthermore, Manhattan is quite large with a lot of tourists.  If you let everyone in the door to watch whenever they wanted to, it has the potential to turn into a tourist attraction.  With very limited seating (most of the space is dojo floor space) and parents/spouses/people accompanying students the seating area is already shoulder to shoulder.

If you just show up and ask to watch a class, depending on the time of day and class size, you may get turned down due to space issues.  If you call ahead and state why you're coming in, you'll most likely be allowed in or given a timeframe.  If you just drop by and ask to watch and it happens to be children's testing night, I highly doubt they'd let you in.  Pretty sure they'd be polite and ask that you come back another less hectic time.

And you can't watch through the windows, due to the architecture of the building.  You'd have to stand on someone's shoulders, and you'd both have to be pretty tall.  

Again, every place has their own unique circumstances.  For someone to say this place has to be a McDojo because they charge for intro lessons and won't let people come in and observe isn't exactly fair.  Time and place for everything.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

JR 137 said:


> In a regular town and under regular conditions, I agree.  However...
> 
> My system's honbu (headquarters dojo) is in Manhattan.  They charge $25 for an intro lesson (rather, lessons).  You have to make an appointment because it's a series of 3 private lessons with an instructor.
> 
> Furthermore, Manhattan is quite large with a lot of tourists.  If you let everyone in the door to watch whenever they wanted to, it has the potential to turn into a tourist attraction.  With very limited seating (most of the space is dojo floor space) and parents/spouses/people accompanying students the seating area is already shoulder to shoulder.
> 
> If you just show up and ask to watch a class, depending on the time of day and class size, you may get turned down due to space issues.  If you call ahead and state why you're coming in, you'll most likely be allowed in or given a timeframe.  If you just drop by and ask to watch and it happens to be children's testing night, I highly doubt they'd let you in.  Pretty sure they'd be polite and ask that you come back another less hectic time.
> 
> And you can't watch through the windows, due to the architecture of the building.  You'd have to stand on someone's shoulders, and you'd both have to be pretty tall.
> 
> Again, every place has their own unique circumstances.  For someone to say this place has to be a McDojo because they charge for intro lessons and won't let people come in and observe isn't exactly fair.  Time and place for everything.


Luckily, if you go 30 minutes out of the city to either Long Island or NJ, there are plenty of places that have no issue with a free lesson or two (or 3) because of the distinct lack of tourists.


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## Buka

On the subject of children training and people observing them being taught in our dojos - I like to think it's the same as a pride of lions tending their cubs.

If it's any different than that.....nah, I don't believe it. Not one little bit.


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## JR 137

kempodisciple said:


> Luckily, if you go 30 minutes out of the city to either Long Island or NJ, there are plenty of places that have no issue with a free lesson or two (or 3) because of the distinct lack of tourists.



I live in a suburb of Albany, NY and we don't have the foot traffic NYC has.

Several places have a $29.95 intro package, which includes uniform and 2-3 private lessons.

It all depends on what you're getting for the money and why you're being charged.  While I agree paying for a trial class isn't the best thing, there's enough reasons to lead me to believe you shouldn't completely discount a school for it.  You have to look at the whole picture.


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## lklawson

JR 137 said:


> It all depends on what you're getting for the money and why you're being charged.  While I agree paying for a trial class isn't the best thing, there's enough reasons to lead me to believe you shouldn't completely discount a school for it.  You have to look at the whole picture.


Being required to pay for lessons, even a trial class, is one thing.  Not even being able to watch them practice once or twice is something else.

If they won't even allow you to watch a class or two quietly from the side, I say "pass" and go find something else.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

JR 137 said:


> I live in a suburb of Albany, NY and we don't have the foot traffic NYC has.
> 
> Several places have a $29.95 intro package, which includes uniform and 2-3 private lessons.
> 
> It all depends on what you're getting for the money and why you're being charged.  While I agree paying for a trial class isn't the best thing, there's enough reasons to lead me to believe you shouldn't completely discount a school for it.  You have to look at the whole picture.


Very true, and if I knew it was good quality I would go. But considering the price change and the free intro outside, I don't see a reason to train in NYC, and wouldn't even if I lived there (about half an hour out currently). Especially since there isn't a significant drop in quality as you leave the city.


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## kehcorpz

Spinoza said:


> No, they charge for the first class in general. There isn't an option for simple observation. And I'm finding myself agreeing. I'm incredibly interested in their tradition, but charging for a visitation? That seems questionable to me. Yes, in general, I could pay $25 without being pained, but it doesn't inspire confidence that the payment is necessary to begin with.



Doesn't sound good to me.

How and when do you pay? Do you pay the teacher right in the dojo before it begins or do you pay him afterwards? 
Seems like a pretty awkward situation to me.

"You got the money?"
"Yes."
"Show me!"
"No, you show me first."
"No I won't."
"Yes, you will!"
"I'm your sensei, show some respect!"
"What if not?"
"I'll challenge you!"
"To a fight??"
"Yessssss!!"
"Awesome!"
"Wait! The fight's not free either."


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## RTKDCMB

JR 137 said:


> Several places have a $29.95 intro package, which includes uniform and 2-3 private lessons.


Seems like a good way for a school to waste a whole bunch of uniforms.


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## Touch Of Death

RTKDCMB said:


> Seems like a good way for a school to waste a whole bunch of uniforms.


That is fine because, there are a whole lot of kids, in China, getting paid to make more.


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## JR 137

RTKDCMB said:


> Seems like a good way for a school to waste a whole bunch of uniforms.



Or maybe they've done the math and figured they're retaining enough students to make it worth doing.

Or they figure if the person brings home a uniform, they're more likely to come back. 

Or both.  

I don't know; I don't run a dojo, and the one I attend doesn't do this.  But dojos that have been around for a while may be run by people smarter than we think.


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## RTKDCMB

JR 137 said:


> Or maybe they've done the math and figured they're retaining enough students to make it worth doing.
> 
> Or they figure if the person brings home a uniform, they're more likely to come back.
> 
> Or both.
> 
> I don't know; I don't run a dojo, and the one I attend doesn't do this.  But dojos that have been around for a while may be run by people smarter than we think.


It depends on the school whether this strategy works out or not. A small school with only one or two classes it might be worth sacrificing a few uniforms but for a larger school that doesn't charge exorbitant prices it might not be prudent. We have had a few students here and there take a couple of classes, pay a month's fees, buy a uniform and never be seen again.


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## jks9199

JR 137 said:


> Or maybe they've done the math and figured they're retaining enough students to make it worth doing.
> 
> Or they figure if the person brings home a uniform, they're more likely to come back.
> 
> Or both.
> 
> I don't know; I don't run a dojo, and the one I attend doesn't do this.  But dojos that have been around for a while may be run by people smarter than we think.


The uniforms in these cases are pretty basic and cheap.  And the cost probably comes back n on the annual contracts...


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## senseiblackbelt

Keep looking... id say thats a red flag


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