# Back fist strike.



## RTKDCMB (Sep 10, 2015)

In the thread "Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu" There was a question as to if the back fist strike had any power in it, so I made this video two hours before posting this thread:. 






I hope this answers that question.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 10, 2015)

Why is it everyone seems to think a back fist strike only goes horizontally?


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 10, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Why is it everyone seems to think a back fist strike only goes horizontally?


I'm not everyone this is just the one I chose to do.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 10, 2015)

I don't use the backfist much myself, but that's just my personal preference.

The power backfist from a big windup such as you demonstrated seems like it would primarily be useful as a follow-up to a missed hook or overhand right. (The missed punch provides the windup.) Do you have any other setups that you find effective for landing that big power shot?

I was just talking to my boxing coach earlier this week and he's a big fan of the backfist, although it's illegal in boxing. He doesn't use the big power backfist though. He likes it as a deceptive jab variation that can come in from different angles.


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## The Great Gigsy (Sep 10, 2015)

One of my favorite strikes. Never really thought about it generating that much power.


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## Danny T (Sep 10, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't use the backfist much myself, but that's just my personal preference.
> 
> The power backfist from a big windup such as you demonstrated seems like it would primarily be useful as a follow-up to a missed hook or overhand right. (The missed punch provides the windup.) Do you have any other setups that you find effective for landing that big power shot?
> 
> I was just talking to my boxing coach earlier this week and he's a big fan of the backfist, although it's illegal in boxing. He doesn't use the big power backfist though. He likes it as a deceptive jab variation that can come in from different angles.


I like the back fist as:
A power follow up or finish:
A angled jab;
A same hand double strike ie. Jab/backfist or straight rt/backfist
A diagonal down elbow rolling into a backfist follow up. (wing chun would be a bong sao/sot sao motion)


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 10, 2015)

As others have mentioned, what you showed is far from being the most common backfist technique. You essentially did a spinning backfist without the footwork.

In it's most common application, the backfist is akin to a jab, just from a different direction and with a different contact point on the hand.
Is it effective? Of course it is. The jab is a mainstay in any punchers arsenal. A number of professional boxers have made excellent use of the backfist. Is it the most powerful strike? Of course not.  But neither can it be ignored.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 10, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> A number of professional boxers have made excellent use of the backfist.


Technically, the backfist is illegal in boxing, although some boxers have a jab which pushes as close to a backfist as they can get away with without getting called out by the ref.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 10, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Technically, the backfist is illegal in boxing, although some boxers have a jab which pushes as close to a backfist as they can get away with without getting called out by the ref.



A rose by any other name...

Why is it illegal?


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 10, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> A rose by any other name...
> 
> Why is it illegal?


You have to hit with the front of the glove, where most of the padding is.

Backfists were a part of old-time bareknuckle boxing. I'm not sure if the rule against backfists came with the Marquis of Queensbury or if it was added later.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> In the thread "Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu" There was a question as to if the back fist strike had any power in it, so I made this video two hours before posting this thread:.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that you breaking the boards?


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 10, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Why is it everyone seems to think a back fist strike only goes horizontally?



Should probably post this here too

Xingyiquan; vertical fist up, rather powerful strike/block
Chen Taijiquan: vertical fist down, rather powerful strike

And add since this is the back fist thread, I will add this

Yang Taijiquan; vertical fist up, rather powerful strike/block. But this one can come out of a missed elbow strike or block or show up all by itself. It can also come at you at about 45 degree angle too


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 10, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You have to hit with the front of the glove, where most of the padding is.
> 
> Backfists were a part of old-time bareknuckle boxing. I'm not sure if the rule against backfists came with the Marquis of Queensbury or if it was added later.



But... But... We've been told by someone who doesn't train striking, that there's no power in a backfist, so why would it matter?????


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 10, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> But... But... We've been told by someone who doesn't train striking, that there's no power in a backfist, so why would it matter?????
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.



DANG!!! Hadn't thought of that..... well shut off the lights....we can all go home now


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## The Great Gigsy (Sep 10, 2015)

Until today I was unaware that the backfist was a technique in other arts. It wasn'tuntil I start training jkd that I  even heard of it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 10, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> But... But... We've been told by someone who doesn't train striking, that there's no power in a backfist, so why would it matter?????
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


Actually, I think it was drop bear making that argument. He does train striking.

I suspect he's primarily been exposed to the crappy point-sparring backfist "tag" that some people do. If so, that could explain his opinion.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 10, 2015)

The Great Gigsy said:


> Until today I was unaware that the backfist was a technique in other arts. It wasn'tuntil I start training jkd that I  even heard of it.



JKD has a good one too, forgot about that, thanks


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## drop bear (Sep 10, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> But... But... We've been told by someone who doesn't train striking, that there's no power in a backfist, so why would it matter?????
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.



Because you could smash people with your forearm. Cutting them. Or score dodgy points.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 10, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Because you could smash people with your forearm. Cutting them. Or score dodgy points.



What do "points" have to do with it?


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## drop bear (Sep 10, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> What do "points" have to do with it?



I can sneak around your guard throw this half crap backfist thing and win a fight. And nobody wants to see that type of fighting.

People want to see heads knocked off.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 10, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I can sneak around your guard throw this half crap backfist thing and win a fight. And nobody wants to see that type of fighting.
> 
> People want to see heads knocked off.



It sounds like you are talking sports though, is that your POV here?.... and if you want to throw a crap back fist that's your problem......


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## drop bear (Sep 10, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> It sounds like you are talking sports though, is that your POV here?.... and if you want to throw a crap back fist that's your problem......



That is the sports reason why back fists are frowned upon.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 10, 2015)

drop bear said:


> That is the sports reason why back fists are frowned upon.



I'm not talking sport and don't much care why a back fist is frowned upon in sport so.....


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 10, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> In the thread "Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu" There was a question as to if the back fist strike had any power in it, so I made this video two hours before posting this thread:.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


\
Excellent vid.  Point proven.  Looks like a TKD guy so fits in with Rogan as a question for him.
\
BTW: The demonstrator maintains a good stance, unlike the striking foils in the Gracie's TD Vids....


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm not talking sport and don't much care why a back fist is frowned upon in sport so.....



The question was asked why it is frowned upon in sport. I gave the answer. 

So what are you doing?

Are you asking why it is frowned upon on the street?


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 11, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Is that you breaking the boards?


Yes, I got the slightly swollen and bruised hand to show for it.


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 11, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Yes, I got the slightly swollen and bruised hand to show for it.


\
Bravo....


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Because you could smash people with your forearm. Cutting them. Or score dodgy points.


There's a simple way around that. Do it properly.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 11, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The power backfist from a big windup such as you demonstrated seems like it would primarily be useful as a follow-up to a missed hook or overhand right. (The missed punch provides the windup.) Do you have any other setups that you find effective for landing that big power shot?


There are so many setups for it but some examples include; after a back elbow, after a side kick or turning kick or after an outer forearm block or after a release from a wrist grab. I also like to use it as a jab and a quick strike after knocking someone's guard down. I used the big windup in the video because I was breaking two boards with it, (which I have never done before) and I didn't want to have to do it twice.


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> There's a simple way around that. Do it properly.



No. You are intentionally smashing people with your forearm because it doesn't have a glove. And then you go "woopsie I missed"


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


> No. You are intentionally smashing people with your forearm because it doesn't have a glove.


Why is that a bad thing?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Yes, I got the slightly swollen and bruised hand to show for it.


Awesome. The break not the swollen hand lol.  Thanks for the video.


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Why is that a bad thing?



Because boxing has a bad enough reputation without people finishing fights like they have been though a mincer.

A lot of styles that don't allow elbows quite often don't allow back fists.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 11, 2015)

The Great Gigsy said:


> Until today I was unaware that the backfist was a technique in other arts. It wasn'tuntil I start training jkd that I  even heard of it.


 
I think a lot of moves have been incorporated in the last 20 to 30 years, at least at the lower belts.  The only back fist I remember seeing/being taught when I studied TKD on the mid-60s, was a backwards strike to the face/nose after a back elbow strike to the solar plexus.  But I remember Mr. Rhee using a heel hook kick while sparring, and none of us had ever seen such a thing before that.  Including our senior brown, almost black belt.  It happened so fast we weren't even sure what we had seen.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The question was asked why it is frowned upon in sport. I gave the answer.
> 
> So what are you doing?
> 
> Are you asking why it is frowned upon on the street?



The question was asked "The question was asked why it is frowned upon in sport.".... it was, in this thread...by the OP?? By Dirty Dog who you quoted in your "points" post???  where?

I'm answering the question of the OP of this thread, which was, and I quote;
"There was a question as to if the back fist strike had any power in it"

Didn't see any reference to sports in the OP's question in this thread... so.... what are you doing?


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> The question was asked "The question was asked why it is frowned upon in sport.".... it was, in this thread...by the OP?? By Dirty Dog who you quoted in your "points" post???  where?
> 
> I'm answering the question of the OP of this thread, which was, and I quote;
> "There was a question as to if the back fist strike had any power in it"
> ...



I am replying to dirty dogs question regarding boxing. If I was replying to the OP then it would be in the quote bit above my post. Like yours is.

Your interest in sport or street is your thing. I have done both.


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 11, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> There's a simple way around that. Do it properly.


\
This is a proper application of a backfist under traditional karate self defense.  As is the forearm with age-uke. Strike or block, or block-strike for all you block-strikers....
|
EDIT: btw.  better lift some weights....  You'll never be able to break those boards without weightlifting program.... Your vid demo is just a 'fluke.'  Bulk up bro'....


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## Flying Crane (Sep 11, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> EDIT: btw.  better lift some weights....  You'll never be able to break those boards without weightlifting program.... Your vid demo is just a 'fluke.'  Bulk up bro'....


I hope his comment was meant as a joke?


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 11, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> I hope his comment was meant as a joke?


\
Try reading some of my other posts.... you'll find the answer there....
\
EDIT: re weightlifting... or even on this T.  lazy.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 12, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Try reading some of my other posts.... you'll find the answer there....
> \
> EDIT: re weightlifting... or even on this T.  lazy.


Or you could just say yes or no.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 12, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> btw. better lift some weights.... You'll never be able to break those boards without weightlifting program.... Your vid demo is just a 'fluke.' Bulk up bro'....


I guess these are all flukes too:

Reverse Knife hand, two boards;





Reverse punch, three boards;





Spinning heel kick, two boards;





Downward punch, three boards; 





Downward Knife hand strike; Eight tiles;





And all without without a weightlifting program. There goes your hypothesis.


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## Tez3 (Sep 12, 2015)

I don't break boards but have a few friends who do and everything I've seen and been told about doing this, is that it's nothing to do with strength nor weightlifting. It's all about technique. Brute force and ignorance have no place in martial arts.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 12, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I don't break boards but have a few friends who do and everything I've seen and been told about doing this, is that it's nothing to do with strength nor weightlifting. It's all about technique. Brute force and ignorance have no place in martial arts.



This. I am a worn out tired old fat man. The last break I did was two 16x4x2' concrete pavers. As a speed break. The same day, I did five 16x8x2" pavers. For eight different groups of students.
If I relied on strength, I'd be in some serious pain.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 12, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I don't break boards but have a few friends who do and everything I've seen and been told about doing this, is that it's nothing to do with strength nor weightlifting. It's all about technique. Brute force and ignorance have no place in martial arts.


I wouldn't count out brute force. It can put you over the edge sometimes.


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## Tez3 (Sep 12, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I wouldn't count out brute force. It can put you over the edge sometimes.



Did you not notice it was 'brute force AND ignorance' not just brute force?


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 12, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Did you not notice it was 'brute force AND ignorance' not just brute force?


Although, sometimes being to stupid to be afraid, also, might freak some bad guy out.


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## Tez3 (Sep 12, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Although, sometimes being to stupid to be afraid, also, might freak some bad guy out.




Wouldn't bank on it though. Always have plan B...and C...and D etc.


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 12, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Or you could just say yes or no.


\
Or, you could give credit where credit is due....  A lot of talk of how best to approach martial arts, with you TKD (it appears).  A lot of presentations on how to give instruction.  Then you ask a yes or no question in an isolated context?  Wow!
\
BTW: Wait til I tell you everything wrong with your demonstration....


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 12, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I guess these are all flukes too:
> 
> Reverse Knife hand, two boards;
> 
> ...


\
No, my hypothesis was not that you (RTKDCMB) were lazy in your TMA training, or in breaking boards.  My hypothesis might be that you are lazy in going beyond yourself to review & recognize the efforts of another....  so far you're proving that hypothesis out....
\
Nice vids on the board breaking.  Am watching them now....  tnx for putting up some more demos....   Valuable lesson for TMA critics....
\
EDIT: First Blush response.  Yeah, all the karate schools are around me have some Masters / Grand Masters doing this stuff.  Student demos as well.  REally good material for marketing brochure's / videos & such.  I would think this would be fine evidence that TKD practitioners can use their hands.  We have tons of MMA & sport fighters who say TKD is weak & only use their feet....
\
Why don't you run over to that audience?  They need your board breaking lessons....


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## Flying Crane (Sep 12, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Try reading some of my other posts.... you'll find the answer there....
> \
> EDIT: re weightlifting... or even on this T.  lazy.


When someone wants to give guidance to someone else on how to improve their power (I don't even know if it was warranted in this case; I did not view the video) and their suggestion is to lift weights and bulk up, that tells me a whole lot about how superficial their understanding is and that they have little or no business giving instruction to anybody.

Physical strength is useful, I do not dispute that.  But an understanding of good technique is more important than bulking up, bro.


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 12, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> When someone wants to give guidance to someone else on how to improve their power (I don't even know if it was warranted in this case; I did not view the video) and their suggestion is to lift weights and bulk up, that tells me a whole lot about how superficial their understanding is and that they have little or no business giving instruction to anybody.
> 
> Physical strength is useful, I do not dispute that.  But an understanding of good technique is more important than bulking up, bro.


\
BRO: Again, the wrong context....  again, isolating a statement, a sentence from a paragraph, the paragraph from the chapter, the chapter from the book, the book from the set of volumes, the volumes from the discipline to which the set of volumes speak.
\
I'm working with Master in my style who is experiencing the same response I just received here from ADOLESCENTS.  They take a statement & expand that to the sum of his teaching.  By their EGO's.
\
I requested - simply - that the statement I made be put in context and suggested two avenues to look at.  AND?
\
edit: Good luck with that....


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 12, 2015)

RTKDCMB: WHILE i'm waiting......................................................................


RTKDCMB said:


> Spinning heel kick, two boards;


\
^^^ This one is my favorite.
\


RTKDCMB said:


> And all without without a weightlifting program. There goes your hypothesis.


\
First criticism (not directly related to board breaking).  You have a difficulty with problem definition....


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## Tez3 (Sep 12, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> Why don't you run over to that audience? They need your board breaking lessons....



and you quite frankly need lessons in English, politeness, respect, humbleness and how to communicate coherently.
There is no need ( and it's against the rules here) to attack a poster personally just because they don't agree with you. It makes unpleasant reading, tuck your ego away and reply without attacking him or others here because for sure there's only one person acting like an adolescent and it's not us.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 12, 2015)




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## teetsao (Sep 12, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> In the thread "Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu" There was a question as to if the back fist strike had any power in it, so I made this video two hours before posting this thread:.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice video thanks. Back fists are illegal in boxing WHY ? Everyone thinks of those lead snap backfists. They aren't. Guys jab like that all the time .They just may not score a point if it is clearly that motion. Ali was a huge user of them,

The back fist that is illegal is the one in the video. Because they were once called pivot blows. And they had the potential to kill. In your video you are essentially doing a half pivot. A full pivot would be like a spinning back fist. Pivots were also done with elbows and forearms.

Another poster talk of wind up and all that. Really what is happening is centrifugal force. Your body weight has little to do with this blow. It is the SPEED that it can move. Because it is on a circular path speed squares. Hence the massive power potential. Because it is circular theoretically the power potential is infinite. But we are human so....

Mainly you are moving the weight of your hand on a long lever( arm) on a curve and when it hits it hits hard. You can potentially exceed your weapons ( hand) integrity. You break and possibly shatter bones if you impact something like the skull. Be accurate.

So there you go. The Back fist that was banned was called a pivot blow and hopefully I educated you on why. The back fist jab will not get you called as long as you are landing with the front of the glove more than not. It is not to fast or to hard to block,  a good jabber is hard to block period. I normally used my face and was very successful with that method but I don't recommend it.

Thanks again for the video. Nice job.

Last note, it would be very risky to use spinning backfist ( full pivot ) in MMA unless you are great at timing. You may just have a guy push kick your *** or worse, he jumps on your back and locks in a choke. To risky but I do see the potential for half pivots being used successfully hook and half pivot back. Possibly use the hook as a fake/set up but MMA sort of changes the tactics and game plan and I do not know enough about it to provide more than I have.

Good luck.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 12, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> BRO: Again, the wrong context....  again, isolating a statement, a sentence from a paragraph, the paragraph from the chapter, the chapter from the book, the book from the set of volumes, the volumes from the discipline to which the set of volumes speak.
> \
> I'm working with Master in my style who is experiencing the same response I just received here from ADOLESCENTS.  They take a statement & expand that to the sum of his teaching.  By their EGO's.
> ...


Then here is your chance to explain to me the full context that justifies a comment like that.  Let's hear it.  Educate me...


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 13, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> You have a difficulty with problem definition....


I have a difficulty understanding you.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 13, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> My hypothesis might be that you are lazy in going beyond yourself to review & recognize the efforts of another.... so far you're proving that hypothesis out....


And what evidence do you have to support this hypothesis?


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 13, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> Or, you could give credit where credit is due.... A lot of talk of how best to approach martial arts, with you TKD (it appears). A lot of presentations on how to give instruction. Then you ask a yes or no question in an isolated context? Wow!



Context: You asked This;



ShotoNoob said:


> EDIT: btw. better lift some weights.... You'll never be able to break those boards without weightlifting program.... Your vid demo is just a 'fluke.' Bulk up bro'....



Then Flying Crane asked this;



Flying Crane said:


> I hope his comment was meant as a joke?



So instead of replying with a yes or no answer to this simple question your reply was this;



ShotoNoob said:


> Try reading some of my other posts.... you'll find the answer there....





ShotoNoob said:


> BTW: Wait til I tell you everything wrong with your demonstration....



I am sure there is not much you can point out that is wrong with each of those breaks that I have not already thought of.myself but hey, I always welcome feedback. Also feel free to post your own videos to show me how it should be done.


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## drop bear (Sep 13, 2015)

teetsao said:


> Last note, it would be very risky to use spinning backfist ( full pivot ) in MMA unless you are great at timing. You may just have a guy push kick your *** or worse, he jumps on your back and locks in a choke. To risky but I do see the potential for half pivots being used successfully hook and half pivot back. Possibly use the hook as a fake/set up but MMA sort of changes the tactics and game plan and I do not know enough about it to provide more than I have.




You technically shouldn't you expose your back and side chambering the pivot punch.

You are better after throwing an overcommitted right cross to pivot which will switch your stance and return with a left cross.

They will almost always throw a left hook to an overcommitted right cross. Which means you could be steaming into a counter punch.







This is kung fu shooting in for the blind side. Which is where you and up if your backfist dosent work.


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## drop bear (Sep 13, 2015)

So if we are moving into the street rather than sport.  Your first punch in tight should be round,,a hook or uppercut as a sucker. Your next strikes should be straight. 

This gives you the highest percentage strikes in the shortest possible time. Against a guy you don't know in a situation that can change. And where you could be fighting from the pocket.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So if we are moving into the street rather than sport.  Your first punch in tight should be round,,a hook or uppercut as a sucker. Your next strikes should be straight.
> 
> This gives you the highest percentage strikes in the shortest possible time. Against a guy you don't know in a situation that can change. And where you could be fighting from the pocket.


Round house stuff is for when you want to go around something. Straight shots are always faster; so hooking just because that is the way you do it, means you aren't the speed demon you could be.


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## drop bear (Sep 14, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Round house stuff is for when you want to go around something. Straight shots are always faster; so hooking just because that is the way you do it, means you aren't the speed demon you could be.



Sort of. In close and coming low is quite hard to see. So as a first punch where you might not be in a position to throw straights it works quite well.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 14, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Then here is your chance to explain to me the full context that justifies a comment like that.  Let's hear it.  Educate me...


Still waiting for an answer...


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 14, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Still waiting for an answer...


\
No, I'm still waiting for an answer....


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 14, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I have a difficulty understanding you.


\
Yes, as I pointed out, you have difficulties.... starting with problem definition....  Your board breaking is ok though.
\
edit: Where's that Rafa Chan karate guy when I need him???


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 14, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I am sure there is not much you can point out that is wrong with each of those breaks that I have not already thought of.myself but hey, I always welcome feedback. Also feel free to post your own videos to show me how it should be done.


\
Improper cross examination.... on the quotes I skipped...
\
On the last above +1 / props to you for posting the personal videos of actual board breaking.


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## Sapphire (Sep 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Sort of. In close and coming low is quite hard to see. So as a first punch where you might not be in a position to throw straights it works quite well.



My favorites are the ones where the person getting punched has an iron jaw and the puncher is like "oh, I guess I have to punch him again."

Concerning back fist -- I believe that regardless of style or discipline, a technique is only as useful as you make it.  That's why boxing is good, but so is ground game.  A boxer vs. a wrestler is a cool match up because either the boxer will get tied up like a pretzel, or the wrestler might get his lights knocked out.  But if a wrestler is told he has to box and he can't wrestle, then he's stuck.  Techniques are what you make of them.


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## drop bear (Sep 14, 2015)

Sapphire said:


> My favorites are the ones where the person getting punched has an iron jaw and the puncher is like "oh, I guess I have to punch him again."
> 
> Concerning back fist -- I believe that regardless of style or discipline, a technique is only as useful as you make it.  That's why boxing is good, but so is ground game.  A boxer vs. a wrestler is a cool match up because either the boxer will get tied up like a pretzel, or the wrestler might get his lights knocked out.  But if a wrestler is told he has to box and he can't wrestle, then he's stuck.  Techniques are what you make of them.



It depends. There is an idea that some techniques are more likely to work for your garden variety martial artist than others. I use the term high/low percentage.

This means that for something like self defence you don't have to expend undue effort to make something work.

So you really should box and wrestle and when you do you should throw more basic straight punches than clever back fists.

Wrestling is the same.yes pulling this off is awesome





But you should be training double leg takedowns.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 15, 2015)

Sapphire said:


> My favorites are the ones where the person getting punched has an iron jaw and the puncher is like "oh, I guess I have to punch him again."
> 
> Concerning back fist -- I believe that regardless of style or discipline, a technique is only as useful as you make it.  That's why boxing is good, but so is ground game.  A boxer vs. a wrestler is a cool match up because either the boxer will get tied up like a pretzel, or the wrestler might get his lights knocked out.  But if a wrestler is told he has to box and he can't wrestle, then he's stuck.  Techniques are what you make of them.


 Normally this is probably true, but certain fighting systems utilize the backfist better than others.  Here's an example: Not sure why this guy is always doing kung fu in a suit, but anyway all of his lead hand attacks are backfists.  Sorry about the quality but no one else was doing this technique this slowly.


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## Sapphire (Sep 15, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It depends. There is an idea that some techniques are more likely to work for your garden variety martial artist than others. I use the term high/low percentage.
> 
> This means that for something like self defence you don't have to expend undue effort to make something work.
> 
> ...



But is the backfist so much more "clever" than the jab?  I've been doing CMA exclusively for almost a decade, and I've taken a few boxing classes, and the backfist is much more natural to me.  Probably because I've been using one more often than the other.  High jump kicks and tiger claw are another story though.  That wrestling move looks like something I'd do as a joke.



JowGaWolf said:


> Normally this is probably true, but certain fighting systems utilize the backfist better than others.  Here's an example: Not sure why this guy is always doing kung fu in a suit, but anyway all of his lead hand attacks are backfists.  Sorry about the quality but no one else was doing this technique this slowly.



Not sure why he's in a suit either, but he looks rather dapper.  And he has good form, too!


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## Zero (Sep 15, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Sort of. In close and coming low is quite hard to see. So as a first punch where you might not be in a position to throw straights it works quite well.


Ok bit sick but kinda funny at 1:58,  maybe the guy just got the shock of his life when he suckered that snowman. Crazy.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 15, 2015)

Zero said:


> Ok bit sick but kinda funny at 1:58, maybe the guy just got the shock of his life when he suckered that snowman. Crazy.


I am sure the  parents of the child he knocked over didn't see the funny side of it.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 15, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> No, I'm still waiting for an answer....


Ok then.  That tells me all I need to know.


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## Danny T (Sep 15, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> ...Not sure why this guy is always doing kung fu in a suit, but anyway all of his lead hand attacks are backfists.





Sapphire said:


> Not sure why he's in a suit either, but he looks rather dapper.


How about; it is what he wears mostly so he is training in what he wears mostly. Smart thing to do.


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## drop bear (Sep 15, 2015)

Sapphire said:


> But is the backfist so much more "clever" than the jab? I've been doing CMA exclusively for almost a decade, and I've taken a few boxing classes, and the backfist is much more natural to me. Probably because I've been using one more often than the other. High jump kicks and tiger claw are another story though. That wrestling move looks like something I'd do as a joke.



It leaves you more open to a counter. You effectively give him your blind side for a second.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 15, 2015)

Alas...yet another thread deserving of the


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 15, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It leaves you more open to a counter. You effectively give him your blind side for a second.


You have all the time in the world. They are way fast.


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## drop bear (Sep 15, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> You have all the time in the world. They are way fast.



The OP,s video isn't. Not in terms of punching and counters.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 15, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The OP,s video isn't. Not in terms of punching and counters.


True.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 15, 2015)

In truth, every time our natural weapons yang out, we lose their protection. We become yinnies.


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 15, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok then.  That tells me all I need to know.


\
trite/


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> In truth, every time our natural weapons yang out, we lose their protection. We become yinnies.



Yeah but there is a whole bunch of positions that make it a bit easier for the other guy to pop you even though you may escape the immediate threat.

This is why we generally only block/parry in one direction.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 16, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It leaves you more open to a counter. You effectively give him your blind side for a second.


Which is one reason  why after the back fist you return your hand to the guarding position, you don't just stand in one spot afterwards and you develop blocking skills.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 16, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The OP,s video isn't. Not in terms of punching and counters.


At no point during that break were those boards able to counter me.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Which is one reason  why after the back fist you return your hand to the guarding position, you don't just stand in one spot afterwards and you develop blocking skills.



So the reason you give up your blind side is because you can hopefully retrieve it afterwards. Why give it up in the first place? What does that strike do that you can't do with another strike with less risk?

I mean it dosent even come off at a weird angle. It hits pretty much like a hook but is easier to block. At least with a hook the fist is in front of the arm. With a backfist the arm is in front of the fist.


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## Zero (Sep 16, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I am sure the  parents of the child he knocked over didn't see the funny side of it.


Yeah, I saw that little girl go flying on the re-run but I had already laughed on the first view.  Perhaps a bit over-kill.


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## Zero (Sep 16, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> At no point during that break were those boards able to counter me.


"Boards...don't hit back"


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 16, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So the reason you give up your blind side is because you can hopefully retrieve it afterwards. Why give it up in the first place?



And who says I have to give up my blind side to do a back fist? You can do a back fist to the side of someone's face when you are standing right in front of them., you can do a back fist when you are in their blind side



drop bear said:


> What does that strike do that you can't do with another strike with less risk?



Risk is relative.



drop bear said:


> I mean it dosent even come off at a weird angle.



There are back fists that can come from weird angles.



drop bear said:


> It hits pretty much like a hook but is easier to block. At least with a hook the fist is in front of the arm. With a backfist the arm is in front of the fist.



It's pretty much like a hook except;


It comes from the opposite angle.
Hits with a different part of the fist
The elbow bends to face at a different angle.
A hook is slower and easier to see coming.You are also far less likely to injure your fingers, thumb or wrist with a back fist than you are with a punch The back fist is more appropriate for some situations. For example if someone is coming up behind you when you do a back fist you don't have to  to turn around as much as you would if to do a hook.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 16, 2015)

Zero said:


> "Boards...don't hit back"


They don't feel pain, fear, get injured or die either.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 16, 2015)

Zero said:


> "Boards...don't hit back"


 Faces don't hit back either lol.


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## donald1 (Sep 16, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> They don't feel pain, fear, get injured or die either.



No but they hurt when they dont break.

I remember my first board break... everyone was making jokes saying there would need to call the ambulance  but I broke it (first try too)


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 16, 2015)

donald1 said:


> No but they hurt when they dont break.


And sometimes when they do.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 16, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So the reason you give up your blind side is because you can hopefully retrieve it afterwards. Why give it up in the first place? What does that strike do that you can't do with another strike with less risk?
> 
> I mean it dosent even come off at a weird angle. It hits pretty much like a hook but is easier to block. At least with a hook the fist is in front of the arm. With a backfist the arm is in front of the fist.


Since when?


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## Star Dragon (Sep 16, 2015)

Hi all, this is my first post. 

I used to do Shotokan Karate for a number of years, where I learned to do the backfist with a big wind up (that is, in the basics training), but using mostly just the power of my arm. I never felt it to be a very powerful technique.

However, in more recent years, I took up the Old Yang style of Taiji as taught by Erle and Eli Montaigue. Like basically all techniques, the backfist is done without wind up, but with full body commitment/fa-jing there. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's raking through the target, but even the snapping type feels like you are using the whole body to strike. I modified it a little to make it fit into my personal style better. It no longer feels feeble.

A little story to illustrate: I was once working out with a partner holding the focus mitts for me. I am really no heavy weight, but when I mentally focussed for a split second, then hit the mitt with a _snapping vertical back fist_, the strike went right through and numbed my partner's arm all the way up to the shoulder. The comment was: "If that would have hit my head, I'd be dead now!"

By the way, I don't see the backfist as a substitute for the jab or hook. I need them all. What technique I choose depends on the position my hand happens to be in relative to the opponent. I like to move in a flowing manner due to my Taiji and Kenpo training, so my arms are often changing their position from one moment to the next. If you fight that way, the backfist becomes a very versatile weapon that can be employed on many trajectories and to a number of different targets.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 16, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So the reason you give up your blind side is because you can hopefully retrieve it afterwards. Why give it up in the first place? What does that strike do that you can't do with another strike with less risk?
> 
> I mean it dosent even come off at a weird angle. It hits pretty much like a hook but is easier to block. At least with a hook the fist is in front of the arm. With a backfist the arm is in front of the fist.


Your a security guard or something correct? I use the back fist often in crowds like a bars or less then police friendly neighborhoods.  If I'm dealing with a person in front of me usually trying to arrest them and his friend approaches from the side to interfere I can't turn my body to ignore the 1st guy so I can deal with his buddy  by throwing a traditional punch , so I throw a back fist off to the side.  Its very effective to get you some time and distance.  The 2nd person doesn't expect it because your not facing him so they are not expecting to get hit.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Since when?



Since always.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 16, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Since always.


Will you let me teach you how to lead with the fist?


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 16, 2015)

First of all, keep you elbow down, and pointed to the earth, leading with the elbow, is cray cray.


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## drop bear (Sep 17, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Your a security guard or something correct? I use the back fist often in crowds like a bars or less then police friendly neighborhoods.  If I'm dealing with a person in front of me usually trying to arrest them and his friend approaches from the side to interfere I can't turn my body to ignore the 1st guy so I can deal with his buddy  by throwing a traditional punch , so I throw a back fist off to the side.  Its very effective to get you some time and distance.  The 2nd person doesn't expect it because your not facing him so they are not expecting to get hit.



There are going to be some unique positions and circumstances that suit the backfist. I don't have an issue with that.


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## drop bear (Sep 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Will you let me teach you how to lead with the fist?



The elbow stops at straight. You fist cannot physically lead with a back fists.


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## drop bear (Sep 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> First of all, keep you elbow down, and pointed to the earth, leading with the elbow, is cray cray.



That is not the back fist in the OP.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The elbow stops at straight. You fist cannot physically lead with a back fists.


So you know how to jab, but you can't throw a backfist without involving the elbow?


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> That is not the back fist in the OP.


I was gonna laugh about that, too.


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## drop bear (Sep 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> So you know how to jab, but you can't throw a backfist without involving the elbow?



The only thing I can think of is the back fist would be thrown like an abiniko almost. Which might sting a bit but otherwise I could not see the point.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The only thing I can think of is the back fist would be thrown like an abiniko almost. Which might sting a bit but otherwise I could not see the point.


The idea is to go straight through a target, or stick him with a straight shot.


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## Buka (Sep 19, 2015)

An old training buddy of mine used to say, "Backfists are like jelly doughnuts. As enjoyable as they can sometimes be, you wouldn't make a diet of them."

I think he's right. I really like backfists. I also like jelly doughnuts. But I can't remember the last time I used either.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 3, 2015)

Buka said:


> An old training buddy of mine used to say, "Backfists are like jelly doughnuts. As enjoyable as they can sometimes be, you wouldn't make a diet of them."
> 
> I think he's right. I really like backfists. I also like jelly doughnuts. But I can't remember the last time I used either.


\
And are you the guys who pound the physical crap out of each other by Shotokan karate form?  I'm forced to put up my own backfist video now....


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## Buka (Oct 3, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> And are you the guys who pound the physical crap out of each other by Shotokan karate form?  I'm forced to put up my own backfist video now....



I have no idea what you just said. (Hey, I'm old, forgive me)


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 3, 2015)

Buka said:


> An old training buddy of mine used to say, "Backfists are like jelly doughnuts. As enjoyable as they can sometimes be, you wouldn't make a diet of them."
> 
> I think he's right. I really like backfists. I also like jelly doughnuts. But I can't remember the last time I used either.


Blaspheme!


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## Buka (Oct 3, 2015)




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## Kenpoguy123 (Oct 25, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> In the thread "Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu" There was a question as to if the back fist strike had any power in it, so I made this video two hours before posting this thread:.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Personally I like the back fist. It's not a knockout strike but it's almost the equivalent of a jab something that's used to set up another move


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## Star Dragon (Oct 25, 2015)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Personally I like the back fist. It's not a knockout strike but it's almost the equivalent of a jab something that's used to set up another move



It can be a knockout strike. I recently did some impact measurements, and the backfist turned out to be among my strongest hand techniques. Then again, I don't deliver them with a mere snapping movement of the arm but rather with full body power as taught in Taiji. Hitting particular _kyusho_ will enhance the effect.


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## Koshiki (Oct 26, 2015)

I do like "backfists" I suppose, but I pretty much only ever do them with a forearm, and a good grip or wrap on the other guy's arm...


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## Montana (Dec 15, 2015)

Pardon if this drags up a dead thread, but I just joined a few days ago and was cruising thru looking for discussions I could participate in.

I've used the backfist a lot during my years in the arts, both while sparring  and in a self-defense situation.  Sure, it's not nearly as powerful as most other punches, but it can be used with pinpoint accuracy and blinding speed.

Personally, in a real fight, I have used the backfist to break a nose and to knock out an opponent (side of the head).  It's fast, it's accurate, and if you hit the right spots, quite effective.

In a fight where you are wearing gloves and helmets, no, the backfist isn't going to do that well.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 15, 2015)

Montana said:


> Pardon if this drags up a dead thread, but I just joined a few days ago and was cruising thru looking for discussions I could participate in.
> 
> I've used the backfist a lot during my years in the arts, both while sparring  and in a self-defense situation.  Sure, it's not nearly as powerful as most other punches, but it can be used with pinpoint accuracy and blinding speed.
> 
> ...



Welcome to MT.  I did not see this thread, as I have been gone for awhile and just recently came back.

The backfist is a great tool.  It can be delivered in a variety of ways, including as a powerful strike.  It is perhaps more commonly used to distract or misdirect, or to cause an opponent to do something you want them to do, setting them up for the technique you wish to use that is more powerful.

As a 'whipping motion' strike, it can also be compared to the hammer fist in some styles of martial arts.  Not the MMA 'hammer fist' which is simply a clubbing motion (as I recently saw it used on a televised fight) but with the true 'wrist snap' movement of a carpenter with his hammer.  This type of hammer fist (tetsui) is very similar to the backfist, generates power in the same way, and can be quite effective when applied correctly.


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## Balrog (Dec 16, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I was just talking to my boxing coach earlier this week and he's a big fan of the backfist, although it's illegal in boxing. He doesn't use the big power backfist though. He likes it as a deceptive jab variation that can come in from different angles.


Agreed.  To me, the backfist should be a fast setup move.  If I can pop the bad guy in the nose or on the temple with a backfist, it will distract him.  He is now no longer thinking about attacking me, he's processing the fact that he just got hit, and that gives me a major advantage and an opening to exploit.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 16, 2015)

Balrog said:


> Agreed.  To me, the backfist should be a fast setup move.  If I can pop the bad guy in the nose or on the temple with a backfist, it will distract him.  He is now no longer thinking about attacking me, he's processing the fact that he just got hit, and that gives me a major advantage and an opening to exploit.



It is a distraction, yes.  But it can be much more than that.  Delivered as a very fast 1-2 backfist/strike combination, it can blind the opponent to the incoming 'real' strike, they are not just distracted, they literally can't see it coming around your backfist in their face.  It also allows one to position the opponent as one wishes them to be for a followup technique, not just creating an opening, but a specific opening.  And it can, if done properly, take away the opponent's balance, which makes an effective counter-attack all the more powerful.

In any case, yes, it is a major advantage in most cases.  Very few people can ignore the fact that they just got popped sharply on the snot-locker and their eyes are watering and their nose hurts really bad.

I believe the key to using it effectively is speed; one cannot delay before delivering the followup technique.  It's a committed technique; you can't wait to see if it worked, it's not one-and-two, it's one-two, bam-bam.  Whether it works or not, the second technique is going to be delivered, so it better work.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 16, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> It is a distraction, yes.  But it can be much more than that.  Delivered as a very fast 1-2 backfist/strike combination, it can blind the opponent to the incoming 'real' strike, they are not just distracted, they literally can't see it coming around your backfist in their face.  It also allows one to position the opponent as one wishes them to be for a followup technique, not just creating an opening, but a specific opening.  And it can, if done properly, take away the opponent's balance, which makes an effective counter-attack all the more powerful.
> 
> In any case, yes, it is a major advantage in most cases.  Very few people can ignore the fact that they just got popped sharply on the snot-locker and their eyes are watering and their nose hurts really bad.
> 
> I believe the key to using it effectively is speed; one cannot delay before delivering the followup technique.  It's a committed technique; you can't wait to see if it worked, it's not one-and-two, it's one-two, bam-bam.  Whether it works or not, the second technique is going to be delivered, so it better work.


Follow up? My backfists are clean, and my backfists are final.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 16, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Follow up? My backfists are clean, and my backfists are final.



OK then.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 16, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> OK then.


I am half kidding. If you look on my faceboook page, I did a little vid where the final move is a straight back knuckle that you step up to. It will drop someone.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 16, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I am half kidding. If you look on my faceboook page, I did a little vid where the final move is a straight back knuckle that you step up to. It will drop someone.



I don't doubt that it will.  I would never consider any of my techniques as 'final' until they stop getting up / attacking me.  Just a little something that life has taught me.  Certainly I throw the backfist with bad intent, and it may very well be a fight-ender.  I just don't plan that it will be; phase 2 is already enroute.  If I don't need to deliver it, at least it was ready.


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## drop bear (Dec 16, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I am half kidding. If you look on my faceboook page, I did a little vid where the final move is a straight back knuckle that you step up to. It will drop someone.



You should practice you combinations with an entry and an exit. If they drop part he way through the combination then great. If they don't you are not effected.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 16, 2015)

Sean Gregory Wold | Facebook


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 16, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Sean Gregory Wold | Facebook


Well, that's something.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 21, 2015)

Blocked a backfist with my face about a month ago, jaw is still not right.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 21, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Blocked a backfist with my face about a month ago, jaw is still not right.


That is ok; it didn't have any power. It must be all in your head.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 21, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> That is ok; it didn't have any power. It must be all in your head.


Almost KO'd me...maybe I KO easily though. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## drop bear (Dec 22, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Blocked a backfist with my face about a month ago, jaw is still not right.



Chew gum.  Helps put it back in place.


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## JP3 (Dec 24, 2015)

I like the backfist when working unpadded/ungloved with people.... but it tends to split the skin of the face/head. Maybe that's why it is illegal, combined with where the padding is? No clue about that. There's going to be a pugilism historian who will be able to say, I'm sure.  Personally, I had better accuracy for some reason with a backfist vs a jab and I don't know why. Probably some flaw in my jab technique, I suppose.  Still, to say a backfist lacks power would be flawed, IMO. A long time ago (don't complete the quote) my 1st black belt demo I did a simple front-hand backfist break with 2 boards, it's not hard if the technique at impact is lined up (TKD backfist, strike with 1st 2 knuckles, not the actual back of the hand exposing the metacarpals, for me that's a bad idea).  Maybe some folks would not consider mine an actual "back" fist, I do't know. I know a guy who regularly uses what I'd call a hammerfist, but horizontally, and he calls that a backfist. *shrug*


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 24, 2015)

JP3 said:


> I like the backfist when working unpadded/ungloved with people.... but it tends to split the skin of the face/head. Maybe that's why it is illegal, combined with where the padding is? No clue about that. There's going to be a pugilism historian who will be able to say, I'm sure.  Personally, I had better accuracy for some reason with a backfist vs a jab and I don't know why. Probably some flaw in my jab technique, I suppose.  Still, to say a backfist lacks power would be flawed, IMO. A long time ago (don't complete the quote) my 1st black belt demo I did a simple front-hand backfist break with 2 boards, it's not hard if the technique at impact is lined up (TKD backfist, strike with 1st 2 knuckles, not the actual back of the hand exposing the metacarpals, for me that's a bad idea).  Maybe some folks would not consider mine an actual "back" fist, I do't know. I know a guy who regularly uses what I'd call a hammerfist, but horizontally, and he calls that a backfist. *shrug*


If he is big and mean, let him call it what he wants, but if he is smaller, tell him the word," back", indicates you are hitting with the back of something.


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## JP3 (Dec 24, 2015)

"If he is big and mean, let him call it what he wants, but if he is smaller, tell him the word," back", indicates you are hitting with the back of something."

That's good advice for lots of such things, right there. If they're big and mean, just let them go on down the road, away from you....


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