# Attacker resistance, "aliveness," and wooden dummies



## howardr (Nov 6, 2003)

There's a certain contingent on this board that constantly complains about the lack of attacker resistance during Kenpo technique execution. The argument goes something like this: *when Kenpoists execute their techniques against an attacker, typically the attacker just stands with their arm extended, offering no resistance, while the Kenpoist pounds away with a flurry of strikes.* This we are told is not realistic as it does not take into account: (1) a resisting opponent, who would attempt follow-up strikes and (2) further bodily movement such as evasion, additional grabs, holds, pins, takedowns, etc.

One might want to call the phenonmenon described above as: Kenpo wooden dummy syndrome. Well, what exactly should happen during technique execution?

Some points to consider:
(1) shouldn't the opponent react realistically to various strikes? E.g., a hand-sword to the bridge of the nose will cause a person to react and not just stand there as if frozen. A punch to the ribs will cause the arm to withdraw to protect the injured area. Etc.
(2) shouldn't the execution of at least certain of the strikes in the technique by the Kenpoist _cause_ the opponent to react in a certain fairly predicatable manner? Obviousy, we cannot perform hand-swords to the bridge of our attacker's nose, but we can strike and make substantial contact to the ribs, chest, etc. In other words, shouldn't a vital part of realistic technique execution be the control and immobilization of the opponent? If a technique is not causing the opponent to be controlled, moved, etc., then isn't it still just "air karate?" I know that I've been hit (even without close to full force or penetration) properly (right weapon to right target, right angle, etc.) and I've been stunned and controlled such that I couldn't react (at least for the moment) while further strikes/manipulations in the technique were performed.
(3) Shouldn't attacker resistance, and follow-up strikes be taken into account in a properly executed technique? That is to say that if the technique isn't performed realistically then the attacker should try to continue with their assault. This should be used to show the technique executitioner that they were not properly controlling their opponent. When I've been the attacker, and have had the technique performed as it should be, I _couldn't_ continue the assault (as I was either stunned, knocked out, controlled, or some combination of the above). Also, the technique (and techniques in conjunction with one another) should take into account a resisting attacker who will attempt (and who likely wanted to attempt) further strikes, manipulations, and so on. This is why Sword of Destruction can easily become Double Maces or Sword of Doom (Delayed Sword to most of you). Other techniques, if performed correctly, such as Shielding Hammer, preclude the likely followup strike intended by the attacker.

Any thoughts on this subject (as I see this being raised constantly)?

Howard


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## Eggman (Nov 6, 2003)

i believe if you are working a technique and your partner is a wooden dummy then you arent doing the technique right anyway.  Im not saying to blast your partner into next year but contact is a necessary part of doing a live technique successful.


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## gman (Nov 6, 2003)

I agree with Eggman. It seems to me when the contact is increased the techs unfold better. I don't even think most techniques would go to completion. Most people would crumple to the ground or turn and run if their nose was put on sideways or their are was broken or dislocated.


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## Michael Billings (Nov 6, 2003)

*YES! *

-Michael


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## dcence (Nov 6, 2003)

I tell my partner not to try and react because their voluntary reactions are much slower than their involuntary reactions.  If they try and react, they usually get hit.  If I want them to move, it will be involuntary on their part.  I mainly want them to keep their face out of the way.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 6, 2003)

Howard:  Thank you for starting a thread on my favorite topic.
Eggman:  You are correct.

The school I earned my rank at was into thumping in techniques from the very beginning (mid 60's) until it's close some 8 years ago.  If the attacker didn't react to your strikes, your technique wasn't working and you had to make contact to make the attacker react.

But reacting to the strikes is only half the equation.  This lets the defender know whether or not he is hitting the targets with proper force.  Hitting targets with proper force and timing is a prerequisite for effective technique practice.  But, in a sense all it is doing is promoting the attacker from a wooden dummy to a rag doll.  This level of technique practice is an improvement over traditional Karate Bunkai, but is in a sense only 2-man kata practice with contact.

The missing element is the attacker who keeps on attacking, who throws more than the two or three strikes that comprise attacks for advanced Kenpo techniques, who blocks or grabs or counters the movements.  The question is not can you actually flail your opponent at full speed, it is can you flail your opponent at all?  Are your strikes quick enough to get past your attacker's active defenses?  Are you really in control of the situation?  Can you defend yourself against additional attack while executing your Kenpo technique?  Can you penetrate your attacker's defenses?  

Traditionally, Kenpoists have developed this type of expertise through Kumite/Freestyle which limits the type of strikes and natural weapons that can be employed.  It was better back in the 60's - early 80's before we wore safety gear, back when we could hit to the back or to the groin and do open hand strikes.  Now, point sparring is very limiting.  And I fear that not all Kenpoists are training Kenpo techniques as realistically as the best of Kenpoists are and as all Kenpoists should be.


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## MisterMike (Nov 6, 2003)

> Traditionally, Kenpoists have developed this type of expertise through Kumite/Freestyle which limits the type of strikes and natural weapons that can be employed. It was better back in the 60's - early 80's before we wore safety gear, back when we could hit to the back or to the groin and do open hand strikes. Now, point sparring is very limiting. And I fear that not all Kenpoists are training Kenpo techniques as realistically as the best of Kenpoists are and as all Kenpoists should be.



I agree whole-heartedly. The trouble is today this kind of training does not fit the majority of society. At least, not as much as it did in the 60's. We are softer now, and with mandatory insurance, rampant lawsuits, greedy laywers and the instant gratification syndrome, schools that train like that will simply not flourish. They may be there and REALLY teach and PREPARE you, but they'll draw and retain less students.


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 6, 2003)

I realize that it's comforting to believe that Once Upon A Time There Were Giants, and These Giants Trained Far Harder Than We Lowly Worms, but it just ain't true.

Personally, I hadn't known that people were training kenpo and not getting hit. At all, especially not in the groin. Personally...let's see, in the last month I got nailed....and then there was that punch....the open-hand William slaps to the side of the head...oh yeah, and the blocks...oh yeah, and those damn takedowns (strikedowns, actually)...and Angela gave me an owie on Sleeper, and I musta got her, because after class she had an inch-high raised lump below the collar bone and on top of the sternum...and Jay's been training with a wired jaw...and...

I'm mentioning this because it's my understanding that this is pretty much how all the schools train, so I don't know what all the self-flagellation is about. (Wait a minnit, this IS self-flagellation!) I certainly am not the toughest guy around, and Donn Draeger, Joe Lewis, or _______(Insert favorite name here) would crush me in a heartbeat if they could stop giggling at me, but come on.


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## Michael Billings (Nov 6, 2003)

Not "self" flagellation - you pay someone else to flagellate you.

 
-MB


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## Seig (Nov 7, 2003)

I agree with  part of it.  When I am teaching a technique, I know how hard, fast, and what targets I am going to hit.  If my "dummy" tried to move any way other than the way I move him/her, she is going to get hurt.  I encourage, and lead by example, when sparring someone of a certain belt color, whatever it may be, I pull techniques from that curriculuum and apply them sparring.  More often than not, I hear "Damn, I didn' think that would work."  With the more advanced practitioners (higher degree BBs), Iusually just pull yellow and orange techniques out and use them, to great effect.


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## RCastillo (Nov 7, 2003)

I invested in a "Fist Gear" outfit sometime back. Works great, but I don't like being the "dummy " all the time.(LOL) My other problem is not enough people around to help me utilize it. But. I'm still glad I bought it!:asian:


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## Ceicei (Nov 29, 2003)

So is it possible to become a top rate kenpoist (or kensi) without having to put in as much "contact"?  I've heard "old time" kenpo martial artists regale of the times when they will "blast each other at almost full contact without body protection.  It almost gives the impression that current ones aren't as tough (or didn't have it as tough) as those from earlier years.

I'd like to think that the "new" practicing model would at least help us to turn out to be as top rate if we don't have the old style practicing model any more.

- Ceicei


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## RCastillo (Nov 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> *So is it possible to become a top rate kenpoist (or kensi) without having to put in as much "contact"?  I've heard "old time" kenpo martial artists regale of the times when they will "blast each other at almost full contact without body protection.  It almost gives the impression that current ones aren't as tough (or didn't have it as tough) as those from earlier years.
> 
> I'd like to think that the "new" practicing model would at least help us to turn out to be as top rate if we don't have the old style practicing model any more.
> ...



I think it is possible to turn out  good Kenpoists w/o getting blasted like they did in the past. People find that they weren't very smart when they were on the receiving end of such work. Today, people train smarter, and are better all around knowing they'll be able to last longer w/o losing their teeth in the process.

Frankly, unless millions are on the line, there won't be all that many that will do it. Yes, I've seen the documentary where people do fight all out to prove how tough they are for little, or no money, but is remains totally senseless. Keep in mind also, many people will not put in the "extra" work like conditioning, lifting, and many extra hrs in the dojo to train. They gotta work for a living plus keeping their health. Nothing is more important than good health!:asian:


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## Kenpomachine (Nov 30, 2003)

But still, you need some contact in the self defense techniques to know how it works and not break your hand/wrist by hitting improperly when you're attacked for real. 

By the way, the best kenpoists I know work always with contact. Even, or specially, if they're working with their brothers...


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## Brother John (Nov 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *But still, you need some contact in the self defense techniques to know how it works and not break your hand/wrist by hitting improperly when you're attacked for real.
> 
> By the way, the best kenpoists I know work always with contact. Even, or specially, if they're working with their brothers...  *


IF you train with NO contact, you have no realism and get good at missing.
IF you train with TOO MUCH contact, you'll soon have no training partners and be lonely and miss them....

Find a balance everyone can live with...
Your Brother
John


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