# Wing Chun Masters website



## zepedawingchun (Aug 11, 2010)

I received a letter yesterday (snail mail) from Wing Chun Masters, which is a new website about Wing Chun. From what I gather, it is an online training site that has been started from students decendent from Yip Man (a couple of generations down from him).

Their main idea is teaching Wing Chun online through iPhone/iTouch/iPad applications. I don't condone things like that, I think it contributes to giving Wing Chun a bad name. Looks like someone is trying to make some money by using the iPhone/iTouch/iPad applications. Went to the website to check it out. Not much there, I'm not crazy about the graphics they use on the home page demo. Click on the Apps Store and you see a lot of what they offer in Wing Chun. The only good thing (in my opinion) about the website is they claim creating a database of schools on their website. Must be on some app somewhere.

I'm giving the address because people are going to find it anyway, whether I like the idea of the site or not. Coffeerox, this is right up your alley. Enjoy it.

www.WingChunMasters.com


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## cwk (Aug 11, 2010)

On the website it says the "master in residence" is Terence Yip.
I've seen some of his DVDs and I wasn't impressed by the content.


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## wtxs (Aug 13, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> I'm giving the address because people are going to find it anyway, whether I like the idea of the site or not. Coffeerox, this is right up your alley. Enjoy it.
> 
> www.WingChunMasters.com



Here we go again, risking another long winded post ... I like it, play it again sam! Let the flaming begin.:flame:


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## coffeerox (Aug 13, 2010)

I don't train off of stuff like this, I don't even do Master Wong's curriculum anymore.  Just hanging back until I can afford some classes.  I'll check it out though.



> The purpose of Wing Chun Masters is not meant to replace a class room.   It is Important that the system not be relied upon and implemented in a  combat situation without proper certification and approval of a Wing  Chun Sifu.  The software is meant to promote and further educate people  on the strengths while those already rehearsed in the system will find  this App a very helpful practice tool.



I still believe that nobody has figured out how to transmit the system through online videos.  The potential is definitely there.  Master Wong has figured out how to turn it into a curriculum with a progression layout, lesson plan, etc.  However his system lacks training body structure which I picked up from Jin.  It also lacked the terminology and the specific hand movements.  I picked these up elsewhere as well.  Jin managed to train body structure, concepts and drills excellently however his videos are learning aids for a current Wing Chun students than a total self-trainer.


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## bully (Aug 14, 2010)

To be fair if it wasn't too expensive I wouldn't mind watching stuff on an IPhone if I was on my way too work on the bus or on a long journey somewhere.

Anything is worth watching, as long as it's not complete rubbish then it would help pass time and maybe you would learn something from it. Wouldn't take it too seriously but like the Tube its a diversion and nothing else.

My only problem is that I dont have an Iphone and am unlikely to get one.


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## dungeonworks (Aug 15, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I don't train off of stuff like this, I don't even do Master Wong's curriculum anymore.  Just hanging back until I can afford some classes.  I'll check it out though.
> 
> 
> 
> *I still believe that nobody has figured out how to transmit the system through online videos.  The potential is definitely there.*  Master Wong has figured out how to turn it into a curriculum with a progression layout, lesson plan, etc.  However his system lacks training body structure which I picked up from Jin.  It also lacked the terminology and the specific hand movements.  I picked these up elsewhere as well.  Jin managed to train body structure, concepts and drills excellently however his videos are learning aids for a current Wing Chun students than a total self-trainer.



It hasn't been figured out because it cannot happen.  Can you teach someone through books and videos to swim in a pool with no water?  Ice skate without ice??  No.  Sure they could simulate the movements, but put the aspiring swimmer in water and watch them flop like a fool, or put skates and ice on the aspiring skater and see a fantastic display of uncoordination.

The potential is not there....not even in the same quadrant.  Wing Chun requires something that no book or video has.....Wing Chun educated hands.  You can have all the wall bags, videos, books, freestyle training with whomever you like....and you still will be unable to learn Wing Chun because of the specific lack of educated hands to touch and learn sensitivity....a staple and backbone of the art.  I am sure you could learn something by mimicking the movements of the forms, but it won't be Wing Chun.

Now, I would agree if you had a regular visit with a Sifu to aid in the correct practice of what you are attempting from videos and books, you know, use them supplementaly....but to learn and effectively use *ANY* lineage of Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun...etc, you must have a Sifu to remotely begin to understand sensitivity.


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## coffeerox (Aug 15, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> It hasn't been figured out because it cannot happen.



I'm not gonna say it's impossible because that is absurd in itself.  Of course it's impossible, because YOU said so.  You place a barrier within yourself and because you never tried, you don't really know.  So the block, or limit, is only within yourself



> put the aspiring swimmer in water and watch them flop like a fool, or put skates and ice on the aspiring skater and see a fantastic display of uncoordination.


Of course. Because they've never done it before.  But once they actually do it, they are learning the hard way (which is the best) and with enough practice, they'll actually be able to do it.  

I was taught how to swim unprofessionally and was only given the concept ONE TIME, AND, it was when I was a boy.  I kept going swimming after that and gradually I learned how to swim completely.



> and you still will be unable to learn Wing Chun because of the specific lack of educated hands to touch and learn sensitivity....a staple and backbone of the art.


It's not even that difficult.  For one thing, Dan Chi Sao is very easy to learn and once you're familiar with it, you can add variants to it that help sensitivity.  Forward energy and cross energy aren't difficult concepts at all, and I learned this the hard way against a resisting opponent (by trying to trap).  

I even learned certain traps by first attempting to trap, being resisted , then giving energy one direction for a moment and then changing to my intended direction.  

An example is if I Pak his right with my left, I attack at the same time with my right, but he parries with his left, when he does, he is most likely giving me cross energy to divert it.  In that case, I collapse into a bong sao and use my other hand (the one that trapped) to lap sao to control both hands with one.  

Now here is the problem.  If I do not continue to give energy at the moment of being parried, he'll resist the lap sao because the danger is over.  As soon as he puts his hand up to block it, you keep giving him energy so that when you Lap Sao, his arm will go in the direction you want it to.  

All of this happens in mere seconds.  It's like this trap, only with a lap sao instead.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-S6bgNFIcc&feature=PlayList&p=2939A535FABE8ECA&index=33


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## dungeonworks (Aug 15, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I'm not gonna say it's impossible because that is absurd in itself.  Of course it's impossible, because YOU said so.  You place a barrier within yourself and because you never tried, you don't really know.  So the block, or limit, is only within yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Like I said, you can mimic the movements, but what you are doing will not be Wing Chun.  It may aesthetically look Wing Chun-ish, but you will lack the deeper instruction that touching hands with somebody that knows and can "feel" and "show" you your holes and inadequacies.  You need an instructor that is qualified in the art to do the art.  Otherwise, you will end up with an ad-libbed freestyle piecemeal set of techniques influenced by your understanding of the art based on video and reading comprehension.  This may or may not be a bad thing depending on millions of variables and your training habits, but you will not get the full understanding of the forms, drills, structures, and movements.  You may "think" you are doing things correctly when you are not.


...and you cannot learn to swim without water nor ice skate without ice....just like you cannot learn Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tzun without a competent instructor to show you the way through the touching of hands during such drills.  Yes, Dan Chi Sao can be easy to learn but without a human Sifu, *I would bet my internal organs that you would be doing it 99% wrong.*  The art is quite hard enough to learn with a Sifu in a Kwoon.  Whatever floats your boat though I guess.


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## coffeerox (Aug 15, 2010)

> ...and you cannot learn to swim without water nor ice skate without ice



You can when you have water and ice.  You missed my point, you have to practice these things to become competent at them.



> Yes, Dan Chi Sao can be easy to learn but without a human Sifu, *I would bet my internal organs that you would be doing it 99% wrong.*



You willing to follow through on that bet?



> The art is quite hard enough to learn with a Sifu in a Kwoon.



I understand where you are coming from and I can sympathize.  When I went to geezer's class, his juniors were THROWING their Tan Sau's at me.   I COULD have demonstrated the importance of relaxation, basic application, etc but I felt it wasn't my place to correct.


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## dungeonworks (Aug 15, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> You can when you have water and ice.  You missed my point, you have to practice these things to become competent at them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Surely I am willing to follow through on that bet! LOL  It cannot be Wing Chun without an instructor, plain and simple.  As far as missing my point on my metaphor of swimming and water, it went right over your head.  You need water to learn to swim for the same reason you need a competant Sifu to learn Wing Chun.  I am unsure what you are implying about being wrong "throwing" a tan sau....afterall, everything in Wing Chun is intended to be a strike with intent.  Now, whether the Tan Sau is turned into a strike or deflection is another story as it entirely depends on what is in the way (a static arm, a punch, or nothing at all).  The Tan can spear into the throat, be turned into a punch on the way to the open spot, intercept or deflect an incoming punch via lop, gan, pak, and continue on target to the opening from there while advancing forward, turning...ect.  Had you a Sifu, you would know this already.

I'm not busting your balls or being condescending Cofferox.  Wing Chun has been around hundreds of years before video and internet.  Until the day comes that computers or video devices can produce a thinking, cognizant, knowledgeable, Wing Chun fluent projection that occupies the physical space a human could, you will not be able to lear "Wing Chun".  Like I said, you can mimic things you see in YouTube or instructional videos, but you will not be able to learn sensitivity....which is the backbone of the art.  You can read and understand the principles to a degree, but you will still need the guidance of a human sifu that can feel and correct the things you cannot feel and see yourself doing.  As I said before, you CAN have a freestyle form of fighting that you may base off of the movements you visually pick up from these videos, and it may or may not work, but to call it Wing Chun because you mimicked them best you can, that is not the art of Wing Chun, Wing Tsun, Ving Tsun, or Wing Tzun.


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## coffeerox (Aug 15, 2010)

> I am unsure what you are implying about being wrong "throwing" a tan sau


I'm unsure if we can move forward with this discussion unless I demonstrate.  We were doing the Tan Sau drill which you can see in this video 2:49 in (however in ours both partners do tan sau)

http://www.youtube.com/user/chinaboxer?blend=1&ob=4#p/c/6FDFA1094AB8A616/5/ORlHA7VBbZw

What I noticed, was that it was tense, it was thrown at me like a hammerfist.  They were chasing hands, in which I DID tell them that we chase the center, not the hand.  They also were not keeping contact.



> I'm not busting your balls or being condescending Cofferox.  Wing Chun  has been around hundreds of years before video and internet.  Until the  day comes that computers or video devices can produce a thinking,  cognizant, knowledgeable, Wing Chun fluent projection that occupies the  physical space a human could


One day, we will have a holodeck LOL I hope I'm alive to see it



> Had you a Sifu, you would know this already.



I do actually, however that is not what we were talking about.


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## jks9199 (Aug 15, 2010)

*Thread locked, pending staff review.

Challenge posts are prohibited, and if it is determined that ANY USER issued a challenge post, that user will be banned.

jks9199
Super Moderator*


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2010)

*Admin Note:*

After review of the thread and PMs, we have decided to reopen the thread. However, I would like to point out the forum rules that *everyone agreed to when they joined this forum.* They can be found here. *I strongly suggest that everyone take note of section 1.8, which states:*




> No "physical challenge" posts are allowed. If there is a threat or physical challenge, real or perceived, issued, the person making said threat will be immediately banned from this board with no warning or recourse.



The post in question that was brought to the attention of the mods, was boarderline. However, we decided to be generous, and let this slide. 

In the future, please be cautious of your wording. 

MJS
MT Asst. Admin


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## dungeonworks (Aug 16, 2010)

Coffee and I were both scratching our heads on this.  There was no challenge issued or accepted.  My "internal organs" reference was a sarcastic comment and so was his response.

Actually, I thought we were conversing quite nicely, unlike the tone some have taken towards Coffeerox (and outright gloating) in some threads around here....I'm just saying.


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## wushuguy (Aug 16, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> What I noticed, was that it was tense, it was thrown at me like a hammerfist.  They were chasing hands, in which I DID tell them that we chase the center, not the hand.  They also were not keeping contact.



It may be good not to judge other's wing chun unless one had more experience and is really able to correct things for juniors, such as your sifu or another sifu who has seen you and conversed with you of a long period of time, says you have the right structure, principles, and have the ability to impart them to others.  

for example, tan sao can look like how china boxer does in his tutorial, but it can also be done with a "flick" which might look like it was being "thrown" and would have a harder feel to it which could be used to deflect a strong incoming strike or if you just want to overwhelm the other person... there's always more than one or ten ways to throw your hand into a tan sao position 

anyway, one person's idea about not sticking or chasing hands and another person's might be different. and if they were juniors, of course we're all still learning, but before correcting another sifu's students, have to know their ways well enough and should have the sifu's permission to do so, otherwise it would look, well, a bit arrogant.


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## coffeerox (Aug 16, 2010)

> anyway, one person's idea about not sticking or chasing hands and another person's might be different. and if they were juniors, of course we're all still learning, but before correcting another sifu's students, have to know their ways well enough and should have the sifu's permission to do so, otherwise it would look, well, a bit arrogant.



Of course.  That is why I said that *I did not correct his students* as I was not in a place to do so.  The only thing that I commented on was chasing the center and not chasing hands.  They didn't listen to me anyways so it doesn't really matter.


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## matsu (Aug 16, 2010)

as has always been said.... i would actually get this,more for a passing interest in all things wing chun and not neccesarily a learning tool.

and as for the rest of the thread...read pointless arguement i,m keeping schtuum on this one...lesson learnt 
matsu


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## dungeonworks (Aug 16, 2010)

matsu said:


> as has always been said.... i would actually get this,more for a passing interest in all things wing chun and not neccesarily a learning tool.
> 
> and as for the rest of the thread...read pointless arguement i,m keeping schtuum on this one...lesson learnt
> matsu




Schtuum???  What is a Sctuum????

I do not think the thread is pointless.  Lots of people do not have Wing Chun schools available to them for geographic or financial reasons and are always seeking ways to learn it.  The point that it any Wing Chun system cannot be learned through books and video is a very valid point. especially to those seeking distance learning.  The absence of a Sifu with educated hands to guide and mold the aspiring student is essential and a requirement for the system to be learned.  I am sure you could get a watered down and rough around the edges idea or "Cliff Notes" understanding, but not a full one.  The system is far too deep to be transferred in such a way.


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## matsu (Aug 16, 2010)

lol....schtuum..zip...nada...zero...zilch i aint saying nuttink.

i,m with you every step of the way on this buddy. even sifu emin says the same in the great thread of his seminar.
you cannot learn wing chun by vid or by book.
but the pointlessness of this thread is that will go the same way as the others.....
matsu


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 17, 2010)

*Schtuum ! ! !* Isnt that the sound of a door being closed on your fingers, or worse, on your face?


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## matsu (Aug 18, 2010)

lmao.... zepade!
i actually laughed out loud at work reading that. and everyone around me thought i was nuts!
matsu


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## WC_lun (Aug 18, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> *Schtuum ! ! !* Isnt that the sound of a door being closed on your fingers, or worse, on your face?


 

I just hate when I get doors closed on my face!  LOL


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