# Pinan/Hein fighting forms



## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 26, 2019)

A question for the Karate guys, in Kwon Bup, we have what are called fighting forms that are modeled and out of the basic pinan forms. We train these with resistance from multiple fighters.

I first learned these forms in 85 while taking shudokan, but It seems as if they are no longer focused on.

I am curious, do other Karate systems use these or something similar?


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## Papageno (Aug 26, 2019)

We usually express it like this: there are three "K"s in Karate; Kihon, Kata and Kumite. Kihon is our powertraining. Strength if you want. Instead of lifting weights (although many do that as well) Kihon is how we train speed and muscle. Kata is the form. I train Shotokan and the Heian katas are very basic. It's plain and easy, i.e. for beginners. As skills grow, the katas are more advanced. Kumite is the fighting part where we put it all together. Everything you do, every move you make is in our katas. Not as strict or formal, but the technic is there.

In my club, most people prefer one before the other. Some prefer kata, some kumite. But we all train both! I prefer to compete in kata. I'm in my 50s, and the competition in fighting is murder. I can't keep up with the lightning fast 20 year olds. I stand a lot bigger chance with an opponent my own age, but you never know who you will go up against. In kata, I still pick a medal or two. In my youth, it was the other way around.

To return to your original question: do we still use kata/form? Yes! There are two fighting disciplines in Karate, Kumite and Kata, as you will discover come the Olympics 2020 in Japan.


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## Never_A_Reflection (Aug 26, 2019)

We have the Pinan series of kata as a standard part of our curriculum. Your statement of "we train these with resistance from multiple fighters," is a bit odd, to me, because what I usually envision when someone says something like that is not real resistance training. We do definitely break the kata down into practical applications, though, and drill them accordingly. The multiple attacker thing is not typically something we do with the kata, though.


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## Yokozuna514 (Aug 26, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> A question for the Karate guys, in Kwon Bup, we have what are called fighting forms that are modeled and out of the basic pinan forms. We train these with resistance from multiple fighters.
> 
> I first learned these forms in 85 while taking shudokan, but It seems as if they are no longer focused on.
> 
> I am curious, do other Karate systems use these or something similar?


We do pinan forms in Kyokushin but we do not do them as you stated.  I would be very interested in to see the pinan katas used as training with resistance.   Can you post a video to illustrate what you are talking about ?


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## Christopher Adamchek (Aug 26, 2019)

We use the Heian series along with our Goju kata


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 26, 2019)

The Pinans 1-5 (or Heians) were developed by Itosu Anko, though he may have based them on another older kata(s) according to Joe Swift, who just published an informative book on Itosu.  This was done around the turn of the last century for use by students in the public school system.  They are symmetrical, fairly short and the basic steps and techniques are easy to learn.

Since so many Senseis, some of whom started their own styles (I think mostly Shuri-te linked) trained with Itosu, his Pinans have found their way into many styles.  In a given style, some dojos may teach them, and others not.  Some Korean styles have the Pinans as well, but called by different names, as Shotokan was a foundation for these Korean styles. 

While learning Isshinryu in the latter 1960's, I learned all the Pinans in addition to the Isshinryu katas.  I'm not sure if that was a rarity, or was common for the style at that time.  I thought of them as the "easy" katas, compared to the other katas I practiced, but I enjoyed them nonetheless.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 26, 2019)

Yokozuna514 said:


> We do pinan forms in Kyokushin but we do not do them as you stated.  I would be very interested in to see the pinan katas used as training with resistance.   Can you post a video to illustrate what you are talking about ?


I have been thinking about doing that. When I do, I will pm you a YouTube link.

I am thinking about doing a 3 part series, basically the same way it is taught.

An interesting tidbit, since you are a Kyokushin student/teacher, is that my Instructors teacher, (Bob Babich) was originally a Kyokushin student and black belt under Don Buck, before switching to the Kang Duk Won/Kwon Bup.

Not really sure why he switched styles.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 26, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> The Pinans 1-5 (or Heians) were developed by Itosu Anko, though he may have based them on another older kata(s) according to Joe Swift, who just published an informative book on Itosu.  This was done around the turn of the last century for use by students in the public school system.  They are symmetrical, fairly short and the basic steps and techniques are easy to learn.
> 
> Since so many Senseis, some of whom started their own styles (I think mostly Shuri-te linked) trained with Itosu, his Pinans have found their way into many styles.  In a given style, some dojos may teach them, and others not.  Some Korean styles have the Pinans as well, but called by different names, as Shotokan was a foundation for these Korean styles.
> 
> While learning Isshinryu in the latter 1960's, I learned all the Pinans in addition to the Isshinryu katas.  I'm not sure if that was a rarity, or was common for the style at that time.  I thought of them as the "easy" katas, compared to the other katas I practiced, but I enjoyed them nonetheless.



This is interesting as Kwon Bup is a Korean influence art, down from Toyama Kanken (Shudokan school), to Yoon Byung (Korean). Toyama, as you probably know, was a long time student of Anko Itosu. And, I do see the similarities between the two schools.

I am curious as to what kata, besides the Pinans, does your system do?


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 26, 2019)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> We have the Pinan series of kata as a standard part of our curriculum. Your statement of "we train these with resistance from multiple fighters," is a bit odd, to me, because what I usually envision when someone says something like that is not real resistance training. We do definitely break the kata down into practical applications, though, and drill them accordingly. The multiple attacker thing is not typically something we do with the kata, though.



We too, break the kata down into individual applications. The fighting forms, from what I understand, is the adaptation to an attack by multiple attackers, it could be in sequence or not, and the defending student, when attacked, is required to attempt the techniques, say from Pinan one, to the best of their abilities. 

It is not really a set, pattern so to speak, although the sequence in the first series is taught.

But the idea is, when the attacking begins, he/she must be able to weave through the attacks, while doing the techniques.

Yes, you do get hit, and the pressure of the attack and the resistance, strikes and kicks, by the attackers are not preset nor slow and soft.

This excersise is usually begins at green mid to high belt and continues pretty much to black belt.

For clarification, Kwon Bup has four belt colors, white, green, brown and black.


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## dvcochran (Aug 26, 2019)

Yokozuna514 said:


> We do pinan forms in Kyokushin but we do not do them as you stated.  I would be very interested in to see the pinan katas used as training with resistance.   Can you post a video to illustrate what you are talking about ?


Please add me to that list if possible.


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## Papageno (Aug 27, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> The Pinans 1-5 (or Heians) were developed by Itosu Anko, though he may have based them on another older kata(s) according to Joe Swift, who just published an informative book on Itosu.  This was done around the turn of the last century for use by students in the public school system.  They are symmetrical, fairly short and the basic steps and techniques are easy to learn.
> 
> Since so many Senseis, some of whom started their own styles (I think mostly Shuri-te linked) trained with Itosu, his Pinans have found their way into many styles.  In a given style, some dojos may teach them, and others not.  Some Korean styles have the Pinans as well, but called by different names, as Shotokan was a foundation for these Korean styles.
> 
> While learning Isshinryu in the latter 1960's, I learned all the Pinans in addition to the Isshinryu katas.  I'm not sure if that was a rarity, or was common for the style at that time.  I thought of them as the "easy" katas, compared to the other katas I practiced, but I enjoyed them nonetheless.


That is interesting. When I look at the heian (pinan) katas, I see a lot of similarities with Kanku Dai, sometimes kalled Kushanku. I believe it was renamed by Gichin Funakoshi to Kankū-dai (観空大). I also find things from Tekki Shodan and Bassai Dai. Someone once told me that Kanku Dai was broken down into the heian katas for beginner training. However, I don't know if that is true.

Kanku means something like "Looking at the sky", which is referring to the first two movements. It is regarded as an advanced kata in our contests, because of the grade of difficulty. It's also our longest kata with 65 technics. It was in my grading to 1 Kyu a few months back and is also common as one of the katas in Shodan grading. Here's how it could look like: 




. 
Although this guy doesn't know how to use his hips properly and his fingers are pointing all over the place, it gives you the idea.


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## dvcochran (Aug 27, 2019)

Papageno said:


> That is interesting. When I look at the heian (pinan) katas, I see a lot of similarities with Kanku Dai, sometimes kalled Kushanku. I believe it was renamed by Gichin Funakoshi to Kankū-dai (観空大). I also find things from Tekki Shodan and Bassai Dai. Someone once told me that Kanku Dai was broken down into the heian katas for beginner training. However, I don't know if that is true.
> 
> Kanku means something like "Looking at the sky", which is referring to the first two movements. It is regarded as an advanced kata in our contests, because of the grade of difficulty. It's also our longest kata with 65 technics. It was in my grading to 1 Kyu a few months back and is also common as one of the katas in Shodan grading. Here's how it could look like:
> 
> ...


I always find it pretty cool to see nearly the same form done in other systems. Kanku Dai is very similar to the form Kong Sang Koon in TKD/TSD. You would see the arm movements done bigger or outer with more of a Kung Fu flair but overall the same form. Nice.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 27, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> We too, break the kata down into individual applications. The fighting forms, from what I understand, is the adaptation to an attack by multiple attackers, it could be in sequence or not, and the defending student, when attacked, is required to attempt the techniques, say from Pinan one, to the best of their abilities.
> 
> From everything I have read, forms were NOT designed against multiple attackers.  While this was a popular conception in the latter half of the 20th century, modern understanding of kata has it that each short series of moves is a way of handling individual attacks.  These were then combined and lumped together as a kata for a convenient way to remember and practice the moves.
> 
> ...


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 27, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> We too, break the kata down into individual applications. The fighting forms, from what I understand, is the adaptation to an attack by multiple attackers, it could be in sequence or not, and the defending student, when attacked, is required to attempt the techniques, say from Pinan one, to the best of their abilities.
> 
> From everything I have read, forms were NOT designed against multiple attackers.  While this was a popular conception in the latter half of the 20th century, modern understanding of kata has it that each short series of moves is a way of handling individual attacks.  These were then combined and lumped together as a kata for a convenient way to remember and practice the moves.
> 
> ...


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 28, 2019)

My above post did not turn out right.  To clear it up:  The 1st paragraph is the quote from Guthrie.  The last 3 paragraphs are my reply.  My karate skills are much better than my computer skills.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 28, 2019)

One of the reasons I asked the question. I didn't think so either, nor could I find a reference.

I do know that the creators of Doshinkan, created drills from the various forms. I thought that this might be the origin. Or after the original Kwon Bup school was separated from the Kang Duk Won organization.


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