# Changes to the structure of the Ninjutsu forum.



## Bob Hubbard (Aug 11, 2004)

We have created 2 sub forums to this area. 
Traditional and Modern.

Traditional is a forum for the X-Kans, Modern for everyone else.

This forum will remain as a "Ninjutsu General" where all can discuss and cross-compare.

The sub forums are restricted to the discussion of those areas specifically.  
Discussion within the "Traditional" must be of a verifiable basis and at this time is restricted to the only known verified lineage.

Modern is for the discussion of the modern adaptions, spinoffs, or creations.

It is hoped that by separating things in this manner, some of the issues we have seen recently will disappear.

Now, some questions will arise:
Stephen Hayes.  If discussing Quest/Toshindo goto "Modern".  If discussing his relationship with Dr. Hatsumi, the Bujinkan, or the traditional teachings, goto "Traditional". "General" is also ok.
Ashida Kim - "Modern" or "General".
Frank Dux - "Modern" or "General".
Saito -  "General".
Rick Tew - "Modern" or "General".
Hatsumi Lineages - "Traditional"
"Koga Ryu Nijutsu" - "General" (The last person to be recognized as part of the Koga Ryu lineage in Japan was Seiko Fujita. His knowledge of "ninjutsu" died with him - he left no successor.)

I realize this will not satisfy everyone. I apologize.  However, the bickering, etc. which has resulted in several locked threads has given us 2 options.  Split or shut down.  I prefer not to shut down if at all possible.

If there are any questions, please ask them here.

We will slowly be moving some of the threads here into the new sub-forums to help 'stock' them.

Thank you.
- Mgmt -


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## Enson (Aug 12, 2004)

great job! i hope this will solve all problems that we have had in the past!


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## Dale Seago (Aug 12, 2004)

Looks good to me, Kaith.


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## sojobow (Aug 13, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> We have created 2 sub forums to this area.
> Traditional and Modern.
> 
> Traditional is a forum for the X-Kans, Modern for everyone else.
> ...



*Salute*  It has begun.  Thanx


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## Seig (Sep 9, 2004)

After much discussion amongst the staff, we have come to the conclusion that the split of the Ninjustsu forum is an abject failure. The exact same negative behavior is going on now that was before. The only difference being you have an additional forum to do it in. To that ends, the members of this forum have exactly one week to clean it up. Traditionalists, use the traditional area, Neo-Nijustsu guys, use the modern. We will be looking to see if you are discussing technique, weapons and such. The rabid fraud busting is going to stop. If in one week, the Ninjustsu forums have not been brought back into the fold as it were, it is going away and everything will be rolled back into Japanese or General. This is not the track we want to take; please, do not force our hands. 

Seig
MT Ops Admin


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## Enson (Sep 9, 2004)

personally i enjoy having both forums, but i guess you are right not much has changed. when i tried to post a question outside of the typical argument not many posted.(i also got a red dot for it) seems like most here love to argue even though they never admit it.
peace


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## Kreth (Sep 9, 2004)

I can only speak for myself. I don't have a problem with the majority of the modern ninjitsu crowd, just those that invent lineage and history to suit themselves.

Jeff


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## AaronLucia (Sep 9, 2004)

No Ninjutsu forums?? Boo hookins!


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## Bester (Sep 10, 2004)

No big loss.  Outside of a few minimal historical bits, what have they really been doing other than slamming each other over who is wearing the real pjs?


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## Cryozombie (Sep 10, 2004)

Bester said:
			
		

> No big loss.  Outside of a few minimal historical bits, what have they really been doing other than slamming each other over who is wearing the real pjs?



Bester, I disagree.  I think there has been a lot of positive discussion recently in the forum, but there are still some... issues... 

I would hate to see the forum go away because one Troll, (whom I admit to doing my share of fighting with, but I have stopped) and a couple of guys with personal issues twords one another cannot play nice.  Perhaps instead of punishing the ninjutsu forums as a whole, which I really do feel have made improvements in the past several weeks, real action should be taken against the troublemakers... 

I mean, we have positive discussions about Ninjutsu seminars, Meanings of Rank, where to find weapons, some good ninja humor... its just some folks cannot "bury the hatchet".


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## Don Roley (Sep 11, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I can only speak for myself. I don't have a problem with the majority of the modern ninjitsu crowd, just those that invent lineage and history to suit themselves.



Well you speak for me as well in this case. If a certain person would stop trying to rewrite history in the _modern_ section we would have a lot less reasons to stand up and try to stop the flow of bad information. If they want to talk about how they can use Gracie stuff or compare punching styles, as long as they are not trying to claim it is from Japan I have no problem. But I really can not stand by while Japanese history is being butchered.

It would be a shame if the whole experiment was ruined due to the actions of one poster like it is.  I am having flashbacks to A.R.K. and all the damage he caused before it all ended.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 11, 2004)

Well, I tried to find a knowledgeable moderator...asked 6 people in fact.
No one wanted the job.

Personally, (not that anyone cares, of course) I'm rather disappointed in the whole mess.  

I've noticed a trend however on other boards ninja sections that ours is also following...that being the 'pissing in the punchbowl' syndrome. Now, we've done what we can to accomidate the different opinions and perspectives, however despite seperating the sections, the battles still wage.

We are left with few options:
1- Ban ninja related discussions all together.
2- Ban "neo" ninja discussion
3- Roll all 3 ninja sections back into JMA-General
4- Find a level headed moderator who can follow things and devote the proper amount of effort keeping things sane in here.
5- Let folks continue to prove their true inner person.

Its really simple - If you want to keep the forums, stop the bullshit and make em someplace worth while to read and participate in.

Some suggestions:
- Whose doing seminars?  Where, When, on What?
- How about some reviews of the various books, tapes, etc?
- Anyone up for doing some interviews with notables?
- What about notable moments in history?
- Evolution of techniques, or lineages, or family trees?

And, please...no gradeschool "I cant tell you that cuz someone else might steal it" crap. 

It's up to you folks to decide the future of this section.


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## Enson (Sep 11, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> And, please...no gradeschool "I cant tell you that cuz someone else might steal it" crap.
> 
> It's up to you folks to decide the future of this section.


well as for me and mine...? i really have seen an improvement on these forums. i mean when i first got here along with others i was bashed on for a while... kinda like being jumped in.

i do agree that "i can't tell you" or "pm me if you want the truth" is junk and should not be allowed.
peace


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## Cryozombie (Sep 11, 2004)

I dont want to defend the behavior of this forum, but in response to Kaith's comment about this behavior being common on ninjutsu forums, you need to consider the sources of this... All arts are plagued by a certain amount of "bogus" schools, negative press, and fraudulent instructors, but think about these questions for a few minutes:

Can you name 10 movies that depict a totaly negative or grossly inacurate picture of Kenpo? Taekwondo? Isshinryu Karate?

I can give you 20 about Ninjutsu.

Can you name 5 MAJOR organizations teaching, I dunno, say Taekwondo and calling it Kempo, Or Wing Chun, or Judo? 

I can name 5 of them for Ninjutsu. 

Say "Kempo" or "Wing Chun" "Systema" to the average joe, and he goes: "Really whats that"

Say "Ninja" to them, and they go "Yeah, pal, right" 

What it comes down to, IMHO, is that its a hard art to have legitimacy in... its considered, at best, a "Joke" in most martial arts circles, and a "fantasy" in everyone elses mind.  We study it and work to have a legitimate place in the arts, and some positive recognition, and then these organizations and people who come along and just go "NINJA's, RIGHT HERE, GET YOUR NINJA's" and then bandy about wierd (at best) claims of things like being a "secret sect of Russian Ninjas" or the "Mystical orgins of the ninja, as taught to my master by a dream tengu who appeared to him in his sleep"  do more harm than good... and then their followers, who blindly believe these claims that could NEVER be proven continue to propagate the negative image, and soon, you have the "Legitimate" practitioners mad that their art is being made to look bad, AGAIN... and they get angry. 

The damage to our art is done... I dont think their is a solution.  People Like Kim, Dux, etc... and the mass media like "Enter the Ninja" and "Ninja III: The Domination" have forever soiled the art in the minds of the world...


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## AaronLucia (Sep 12, 2004)

Ok...how bout we all agree to disagree..

Someone may be right and the other truly wrong..but just get along!

I don't want to lose my Ninjutsu thread!


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## Don Roley (Sep 12, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> We are left with few options:
> 1- Ban ninja related discussions all together.
> 2- Ban "neo" ninja discussion
> 3- Roll all 3 ninja sections back into JMA-General
> ...



You left out the option of dropping the one guy who is causing the most trouble right now by doing things like posting about 16th century historical figures in the MODERN ninjutsu section, insulting others that call for references and disrupting, etc whenever he can.

To add to to what Technopunk said about the amount of frauds in ninjutsu, I can tell you what the forum is going to be like just because of the nature of the beast.

First you are going to have someone create a thread asking "have you ever heard of these guys?"

Next you are going to have several people talk about how no one in Japan has heard of this supposably Japanese martial art, give links to threads where the problems with their stories have been discussed on fraud busting sites, people detailing the criminal record of the head teacher, etc.

Now things might just end right there. If you make a search of the word "Konigun" or "Jimmy Wennburg" you can see just how this goes on. But there may be further steps added later on.

The third step is when sometime later a newly registered poster will say that he just found the thread and is here to clear up some misconceptions. He will make several unsupported statements such as , "we are well known in Japan despite what has been said here, and our hanshi just had  lunch with emporer Hirohito last week."

Then you are going to have a few people ask for some sort of proof to their claims, as well as some people pointing out problems with their story- such as the fact Hirohito died over a decade ago.

The response from the representative will be along the lines of, "who are you to judge me" and "I don't have to prove anything to _you._" He will try to turn tht etables, distract, insult and do anything other than deal honestly with provable facts and logic. There may be several other new members join up to support him in attacking those that say they don't believe the stories they tell.

And then things get bad.

The one thing I could reccomend is that any time an art that claims to be from Japan can not be found in Japan or provide a link to Japan is discussed, the threads go to the "horror stories" section as fact as they are found. There are a few people on Martialtalk who live in Japan and read the language but do not study ninjutsu and so can be objective. If they can not find a reference in Japan, then the call should be that the claimnents are frauds until they choose to show proof.

The modern ninjutsu section should be open to discussion of arts that do not claim to be from Japan such as Toshindo, Rick Tew's system, Ralph Severe's system, etc. Discussions on comparing techniques, philosophues, etc can take place without the need for them to conform to the definition of Japan as long as everyone is clear on that. History of the ninja SHOULD NOT be discussed there.

Things that are stated should be allowed to be challenged and proof demanded. If you don't allow this, then martialtalk is going to be swamped with the silliest theories and stories this side of the old Ashida Kim message board. If someone refuses to back up what they say, then everyone else has the right to say they do not beleive the person making the claim.

And people that challenge other to physical fights, post inappropriate threads in the wrong section, etc, should have their right to post suspended or be banned.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 12, 2004)

Regarding the resident nutcases, It is not against our policies to be wrong, insane, or even a jerk.  That said, disruptive influences are often 'asked to leave'.



> And people that challenge other to physical fights, post inappropriate threads in the wrong section, etc, should have their right to post suspended or be banned.


Warnings are usually issued, and the physicality crap usually results in vacations -IF- we are informed promptly.  It's hard to act on a 4 month old threat.  (Hint- Report to Mod is there for a reason.)



> Things that are stated should be allowed to be challenged and proof demanded. If you don't allow this, then martialtalk is going to be swamped with the silliest theories and stories this side of the old Ashida Kim message board. If someone refuses to back up what they say, then everyone else has the right to say they do not beleive the person making the claim.


Challenges are ok.  Fraud-Busting is not.  As to the silliest theories, I've read the 'stuff' thats been posted. We're already swamped with crap.  We'd prefer the real info.  Problem is, most folks are either too busy arguing, chasing tails (or tales), playing "I gotta sekret" or lurking do bother drowning the BS out with content.

The division you ask for is there now.
- General for all,
- Traditional for verified Japanese
- Modern for the spinoffs, variations, interpretations and in name only folks.


Simply put, the mechanism is there...people need to use it.
If not, in a few days, it won't matter any more.

If it's fact - back it up with references.
If it's theory - clearly state it is such.
If it is history - cite your sources
If it is technique, concept, lineage - document your references.

If I were to grade these forums on a scholastic level, y'all get an F-

I've read Hatsumi and Hayes books....some may not like them, find them flawed, etc, but I quite enjoyed them.  I found them a good introduction, with historical info I hadn't seen elsewhere.  If those in Japan would like to verify statements, translate documents, or otherwise contribute to the idea of making MT the leader in Ninjutsu Information, then, hey, I'm all for it.

But if you're (general you're) only here to stir up trouble, argue, complain, harass or otherwise disrupt things, your time here is limited.

Membership is a privilage, not a right.  


> A member who is rude, excessively negative, or disruptive may receive a warning or may be suspended or banned immediately.


That applies to everyone.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 12, 2004)

WOO HOO I GET AN F!

Just like highschool all over again.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 12, 2004)

There have been some people who have tried to guide things, build things, make this something special.

Those aren't the one's I'm complaining about.... it's because of them, that we've been this patient. Hell, -I- want this section to continue, to grow, to thrive.

Not be just another spot folks can argue.  Too many of those out there now, y'know?


Now.... ignoring the ancient russian ninjas, armed with klingon laser weapons and romulan cloaking devices, what good -is- in here that is worth saving?
What are folks here up to doing to save these sections, and make them 1000 times better?


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## Don Roley (Sep 13, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Challenges are ok.  Fraud-Busting is not.



Can I get a clarification of the differences and some examples of each?

I was under the impression that things such as starting threads about other members exposing them as frauds, hijacking threads to attack the charecter, etc was the definition of fraud-busting.

But a recent thread had Seig saying it was close to fraud-busting. The thing was, it was really a case of one member making silly statements and several others pointing out there was no proof, the member refused to give acceptable proof to back up what he said, was contradicting himself, was contradicting known facts, that his personal history did not endear trust for his word alone without further proof, etc. The guy has been left alone in a few threads where he has merely stated his opinion or posted in threads that were clearly not related to history or anything like that.

So, when demanding proof to certain statements, what are the rules? It seems to me that in a court of law or academic debate the source of the evidence is allowed to be evaluated for trustworthiness and acceptablity. If a poster refuses to give proof, or quotes a fraud such as Ashida Kim or Frank Dux, are we not allowed to point out the charecter upon which the statements are based on if there is no other proof put forth?

You see just how delicate this can be and how it would be best if there were some clear examples given.


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## Kreth (Sep 13, 2004)

Well, rather than have the ninjutsu forums shut down, I've decided to refrain from posting in the Modern Ninjitsu section. However, if sojobow et al posts his tripe in the Traditional section, I'll be on him like a doberman on a baby...

Jeff


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 13, 2004)

The diferential between refutal and fraud busting is the extent on which things go on.
Refutal is they post drivel, you post fact, then either move on, or isolate the debate into 1 thread.  When it crosses over to a new forum, or multiple threads it then becomes a possible case of fraud busting.

Lacking a knowledgable and level headed moderator for this section, it is hard for us to seperate the 2 without expending alot of time.

If people want to belive that ninjas are decended from elite alien shock troops left here 10,000 years ago, well, that is their right.  You do have the right to ask for proof. They have the right to refuse. You have the right to post your historical proof that demonstrates their origins as Iga, not Mars. People have the right to ask 'what ifs' and 'I thoughts' and 'maybes' without being ripped to shreds.

Examples being all the cross polinations that have occured in the arts over the centuries. Maybe, just maybe, the ninjas did pick up some techniques from the Cossacks...or the Huns...or the Romans.  Is there -any- historical evidence that those parties interacted? Can it be verified from multiple sources? (A university or museum would be great here).

There is also the "Ignore" feature.  Put the Trolls on Ignore, report them to the staff, drown them out with real provable facts, etc.

If you leave the battlefield to the fools, only the fools information will be there.  It then becomes 'proof'.


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## Kreth (Sep 13, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> If you leave the battlefield to the fools, only the fools information will be there.  It then becomes 'proof'.


Well, I've decided it's not my place to try and dispute sojobow's claims for the benefit of the neo-ninja crowd. Most of the regulars in the forum know enough to set his rantings aside. I'll just stick to the traditional section, and let him spin his fantasies for the unwitting newbies visiting the modern section.

Jeff


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## sojobow (Sep 15, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Well, I've decided it's not my place to try and dispute sojobow's claims for the benefit of the neo-ninja crowd. Most of the regulars in the forum know enough to set his rantings aside. I'll just stick to the traditional section, and let him spin his fantasies for the unwitting newbies visiting the modern section. Jeff


Just noticed this thread tonight.  Interesting.  My input is simple:  All we need do is answer the question as if someone from outside is asking.  Just be polite and courteous.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 15, 2004)

1 other point needs to be made here:

If we have a disruptive member or members, we can, and may remove partial or full forum access.

If the person is a great contributor in traditional, but a troll in modern, we can remove their access in part or in full to the modern forum.
The reverse is also true.

It's a bit of a pain to do so, however so we would very much prefer not to.
Also, anyone signing up a duplicate account to get around the limitation would be in violation of policy, so that path need not be said.


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## Enson (Sep 15, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Also, anyone signing up a duplicate account to get around the limitation would be in violation of policy, so that path need not be said.


why in the world would anyone make a different account? :idunno: if someone doesn't like what i say... well its my opinion not theirs! i think some good members here have generated bad reps from standing apart and stating their feelings. doesn't make too much difference when they submit relevant info. (i.e. ralph severe, gmunoz, and others) that red dot doesn't look good but if they are honest and upfront of where they get their info... well more power to them. i mean i had someone red dot me for asking, in a ninjutsu forum, what kind of tabi are preferred? ("stupid question") whats that? i guess the person didn't realize where he was or was just wanting to argue some more. just state your opinion in a honest way, don't lie, and everything should be fine.

peace


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 15, 2004)

We've had folks do the multi-account thing in the past.

They tend to 'vanish' shortly after that...


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## AaronLucia (Sep 15, 2004)

Vanish using their Ninjutsu...


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## sojobow (Sep 17, 2004)

Hey sir, how are we doing now?  do you think we'll make it through?  Looks like we're going through another Meiji Restoration or something.  Hope we survive.  If not, oh well! Happy Holiday.


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## Bester (Sep 17, 2004)

I still say, no big loss.
 Sorry, but while I do have respect for the small handful who are trying to make use of things, the noise factor from a few insane trolls is deafening.

 Yeah, pot, kettle, black right?

 Fine, lets get back to how the Huns and the Romans were the secret origins of the Ninja.  Or was it Captain Kirk?  I forget.  Slojoblow, what was that fantasy, err, theory you had again?

 Maybe Hatsumi is an Atlantian?  Sorry, Murian. (Wrong Ocean)
 It's Dux who is the Atlantian. You can tell by the size of his gills.

 *Poof*  *Flash*  *KaBoom*
 :jaws:


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 7, 2004)

*Changes Made: 11-7-2004*

"Modern" Ninjutsu forum has been removed from the Japanese section and is now located under the "Arts" heading as "American Ninjutsu".

"Traditional" is the place to discuss the concepts, techniques and ideas of those schools that are popularly accepted as having verified lineages. 

"General" is the place for all variations that do not have the verifiable lineages, as well as discussions of the history, culture and general concepts of the Ninja.


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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

Cool!


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 30, 2004)

MODIFICATION

Discussion surrounding SKH/Quest/ToShinDo, etc can now be done in the specialized subforum for those areas of interest, located under the JMA-Ninjutsu heading.


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## Bester (Dec 5, 2004)

So, no more "American Ninjutsu"?  I saw it was closed.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 5, 2004)

We are archiving what we can, and the final decision hasn't been made yet.  It's locked so we can avoid further headaches.


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## AnimEdge (Feb 8, 2005)

So uh...where is it now?


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 8, 2005)

Look in "The Archives" section.


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## AnimEdge (Feb 26, 2005)

yea but you cant like do anything when its in there


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## Cryozombie (Feb 26, 2005)

AnimEdge said:
			
		

> yea but you cant like do anything when its in there


 Yeah...



			
				Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> It's locked so we can avoid further headaches.


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## Bester (Feb 26, 2005)

Without mentioning the scam artists Ashida Kim or HaHa Lung, or the Frauds Frank Dux and Richard Bussey, or the SPAMMER morphine Power DeRanger Rick "Pa"Tew, what is a legitimate American Ninjutsu lineage?

Mr. Hayes ideas have their own forum.  It could use some traffic, but it is there.
Mr. Van Donk falls under the Ninja General (IMHO)

Who else is there that isn't just some con-artist who has watched too many Sho Kashugi films?

Seems that reopening it would just attract more "Wannabes" and they already have a forum out there for those folk....you know, the morons who think that wearing black pajamas, playing with smoke bombs, reading a book and running around the neighborhood after dark makes one a ninja.


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## AnimEdge (Feb 27, 2005)

RBWI  which is my style, though cant call it RBWI, so we just round it off to American Ninjutsu


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## Bester (Feb 27, 2005)

RBWI or Robert Bussey's Warrior International .
Robert Bussey, not Richard like I said.

American Ninjutsu.  Hey, Can I declare Georgian Kung Fu to be a legit way to market my dojo hopping as well?

Sorry AE, but Bussey's on the "List".
Multiple Black Belts before 18, licenced by Hatsumi at 18, etc. Makes some folks suspicious, especially when marketing using false terms like "American Ninjutsu". (There simply is no such beast.  There may be an ancient Hawaiian art called Lua, but it's not refered to as "Hawaiian Kenpo".) There has always been a difference between saying "it's Ninjutsu-like" and "it's Ninjutsu", a misrepresentation Mr. Tew doesn't seem capable of understanding.  Maybe when he grows up and puts away his morpher?

Now, I have to ask the hard question here....Why does his (Bussey) name turn up in conjunction with so many Christian Faith links?  Isn't his misrepresentation a sin?  Then again, the Power Ranger Brigade here was led by a tag-team of Preacher Brothers. (Coming soon to NBO, Ninja Box Office)

Why can't you call it RBWI? If that is what it is, then use it's name.  Don't use incorrect terms for your style.  There is no such thing as "American Ninjutsu" outside of a marketing plan and Hollywood.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 27, 2005)

Bester said:
			
		

> Who else is there that isn't just some con-artist who has watched too many Sho Kashugi films?


 There are other offshoot Instructors from the 'Kans who are "for real"...

 Like Ken Harding for example.


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## Kreth (Feb 27, 2005)

Bester said:
			
		

> Multiple Black Belts before 18, licenced by Hatsumi at 18, etc.


Except, of course, for the fact that he wasn't licensed as a Bujinkan instructor...

Jeff


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 27, 2005)

But his website states: http://www.robertbussey.com/legacy.shtml
"He also traveled to Japan on numerous occasions, and, on his first venture, at the age of only 18, and long before the out-break of "Ninja-mania," became a licensed instructor of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu under Masaaki Hatsumi which, in 1979, established Bussey as a pioneer of Ninjutsu in America."


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## AnimEdge (Feb 27, 2005)

*sigh* not another one of these, i allready had to argue with a guy from Dallas about this and sent him like a pm that took like 5 pms to send it all about my research up on Bussey, if i didnt know my instructors if i didnt know what they where capable of if i didnt see how good they where how honarable and honest they are to me about it through classes and what all they have put up with about this then i woudl be a bit worried about the past of the style i am studing on, We cant Call it RBWI becouse there is no RBWI anymore, it has been disbanded in 97ish, now if Ford, disbanded and left no one in charge, and a few of there main designers start there own compainy and design cars that looks pretty close to Fords, can they call them selfs Ford? can the call there truck they created a "F(number)" No, becouse they will get suied, even if they gave these cars away for free they still would get suied. 

Now like i said i argued with some Dallas Ninjutsu guy, i think hes name was like r.sever or something to that effect. The problem i had with him is his posts had no meaning, he pmed me saying "YOUR BEING LIED TO!, come to Dallas and i will teach you the truth!" i would reply with small explenations about PPC(The "Compainy" or "Orgnization" or whatever you cant to call i am with means: Personal Protection Concepts, and stuff along those lines, hes reply is that they are chargind me money and ripping me of, and that i shoudl come to him and he will teach me(for a fee i might add) now My Class, costs me NOTHING, expt like 5bucks for a belt test (i think 10for BB cuz they get it emprodiled), all i have to do is pay for a membership to the Gym they are located at (27monthly(whitch i paid for before i even took the class) i asked my instructors(theres like 2 main ones and like 2 other BB, one just turned last month after 5 years training) I found out that they do get paid around 10bucks a hour from the Gym due to the fact that the people in the class are pretty much there just of the class(think of like commision), after that he stoped talking about them "Taking my money"

Now the onlyvaild thing i heard from this Dallas guy is that he WAS there when Bussey was, now what he told me that happned if true, doesnt make me all to trusting of Hatsumi, i heard from this guy, whomay or may not have been there, that Bussey was there for maybe 3 months before this, and they where all at a party and theyw here all drunk, and some Student goes: "Hey Hatsumi!, You should Buessy to Instructor!" "Ok!" He replyed "Bussey! Your now instructor! Heres your Belt!" I wonder about a instrutor who promotes as a joke/drunk (I did find later that in Japan they do premote early with the idea that the promoted study will grow into it (like gived a kid pants to big and going "Your grow into them eventually")

Now a Breaf Summory of what i found when looking him up, actually i might just post the pms i sent to Server:

(Sent in October-Ish)(PM 1)

Its a bit log so i had to send it in parts:
Alrighty, well i did some research, read basicly his whole website, a lot of posts from people, a few interviews and stuff that bussey wrote. This is the only tiem anywhere on his website or anywhere about him that he even really talks or is talked about Ninjutsu:

"at the age of only 18, and long before the out-break of "Ninja-mania," became a licensed instructor of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu under Masaaki Hatsumi which, in 1979, established Bussey as a pioneer of Ninjutsu in America. Bussey made history by sponsoring the first open U.S. meeting with Japan-trained instructors in hopes of setting the ground work for an international fellowship. Hatsumi proposed the Bussey would "father" American Ninjutsu as the Bujinkan's top representative. Bussey rejected the idea and instead chose a less conspicuous position by teaching only a handful of people in Nebraska and side-stepping the potential for political conflicts. "

Now maybe thats true maybe its not, but the thing is, is that throught his whole site, it rarely says anything about ninjutsu infact it even takes about him not waiting him to be known just for ninjutsu:

"Admired by most, and considered controversial by others, Bussey has never really been able to escape the image that links him to Ninjutsu.
"It is an image which he has fought to reverse for years," claims his brother Michael. "RBWI was Robert's vehicle for exposing the inefficiencies of martial arts by discovering new ways to train and defeat aggression.""

From what i have read, is a bit clashing, he states there is that: "became a licensed instructor of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu under Masaaki Hatsumi" and on another place some one has stated that he was only there for a few months to maybe even a year and left becouse he wanted to learn/teach something he though was more 'realistic' There also states that he also knows another form tath he learned 'overseas' that i heard was from Korea and he went to do all this around 18, and that he was also highly ranked in a more local(i dont know what MA) before he left to go to japan.

(PM 2)
Part 2:

And from what i can tell is that he came back in 1977ish and started developing his own style or whatever, my guess is that when some one asked him what style it resembles he would say 'Ninjutsu', but it talks about how what he was doing/teaching:

"Bussey's performance seemed so far removed from conventional martial arts that publishers and videographers urged him to organize his own art and preferably label it with an oriental name to lend credibility to his teachings"

this is what he did: "At first, it is said that Bussey resisted the idea. However, he eventually adopted the title of founder, refused to concoct a name for his style and chose the acronym RBWI, the heading he used for his various unions of academies."

That means he started RBWI whitch did not have anything to do with Ninjutsu name wise, and people even dubbed it Bussey-Itsu and so on, but from what i have read is that when he was in charge of RBWI that he did not teach "Ninjutsu" or even teach anything in particular but he taught "RBWI" that RBWI was the name of what he taught, and that when asked what it was closly resembles he or someone one would say Ninjutsu, now this gos back to the quote i said about him trying to get away from that name but couldnt that he wasnt teachning Ninjutsu, but that he was teach RBWI

Now i also came across some videos from the late 80s clearly stated as "Mastering Ninja Combat Tactics"
with claims such as "Over 100 self-defense techniques against these situations are clearly shown.(on knife and gun disarms and attacks)" Now 100 in 56mins is a bit far fetched, no he does not use the name Ninjutsu that i can tell, but used tehe names Ninja, so i am willing to go with that this might have been eather mainly money-making, or to get it out there for people, probly for the money  but besides a interview from the maker of that movie stating how glad he was to work with such a master(like bussey) i dont even know if it was his idea or some one came up to him and asked him to do it, dunno.

In a nutshell, from what i can tell is that Bussey had a lot of MA training before he went to Korea(?) and then also to japan, eather stayed and mastered like he said, or didnt like it and left, came back and from what i can tell started and created RBWI and used that name so he can freely develope his art style with no traditional connections, maybe, whitch seams to have been dubbed as a form of Ninjutsu sence that is what it closly resembles, sence it takes about him saying he didnt want to be known for ninjutsu, and he takes very little about ninjutsu or ninja on his site.

He ran RBWI tell 1997 and disbanned for whatever reason and started his cunsulting firm, my guess he does this furm to still be active in MA and also as his job.

(PM 3)
Part 3

Now this brings the story to my school, in 1997 eather the DFW brance of RBWI or a group of RBWI or whatever came down to texas and started a group to keep in touch and so on, this group they dubbed PPC: Personal Protection Concepts(i personally find it to be a rather bland name); Now, let me ask you, if someone asked them, what they taught or what they study, they cant just say, oh im a Black Belt in PPC, they woudl be like, what is PPC? and so on, they cant use the name RBWI becouse it is disbanded and copywrited, so what do they do? well, they 'use' the name that is most closly and what RBWI is manly based off of: Ninjutsu, now this Ninjutsu is not called, Togakure or Gyokko, sence well it is not those things, sence it has vary little connection to the traditional styles but is somewhat rooted in there and sence it has a big christian base(Bussey suposably was 'Born Again') and well you dont want to call it Christian Ninjutsu, becouse that would be even more wrong, and sence RBWI was many 'created' in America they just call it American Ninjutsu.

now i have not talked to my Instructors, but i have talked to some of my fellow mates, and they are aware of most of that, they all know this isnt traditional ninjutsu, but it is called ninjutsu becouse that is what it is closley based off of, and that this class in generaly is very open, it can be easly adabted to add anything into it it wants, but they use the name NInjutsu, becouse it is what it most closly resembles, now what i think is that Bussey is probly not to happy we are calling ourself American Ninjutsu, sence well, he didnt like to be known for Ninjutsu but for RBWI, and sence we cant us ethat name RBWI we went with what it is based off of.

(PM 4)
This is the last of it 

Now all in all i can see why you wouldnt be to happy with that eather, we are claming ourselfs to be Ninjutsu, when technicly we are RBWI but for legal reasons we cant use that, even though that is what we are, so they in 1997 decided that the best way and name to go is American Ninjutsu, now this does not bother me, why does being called a Ninjutsu than RBWI when weather or not Bussey even master ninjutsu not bother me? First i would much rather be called American Ninjutsu than PPC  and that is what RBWI is most close too is ninjutsu, and im sure that if we could call ourselfs RBWI we woudl all jump on it, now if we went around boasting and such saying we are Togakure Ninjutsu or trying to use the Ninjutsu name to a advantage then i would be upset, but we are not and no one is making money (well i guess if 3(found out it was 10) a hour is making money then maybe so), infact another good example is RWTB, they teach RBWI but as the name RWTB and not *whatever* Ninjutsu but if you look around your see that that is generaly what is taught(ninjutsu) and seam to be rather popular.

Now i dont know if you are still reading this by now but i would like to thank you for informing me about this, i feel a lot closer and more understanding to PPC and American Ninjutsu and also RBWI, now if you have a problem with the name American Ninjutsu then you would have to talk to the PPC people in charge, they have been using it sence 1997 so might be a bit hard for them to change, now i am Proud to say that i am studing American Ninjutsu from PPC and i am now well aware that this is actually RBWI whitch is based off of Ninjutsu, now wither or not Bussey really trained like he said he did in Togakure Ninjutsu or not it up to him, But we are not and do not teach Togakure Ninjutsu, we teach RBWI(with a few add ins or so dunno) and our form of it is called American Ninjutsu and is consedered a Modern Ninjutsu Style becouse that is what it is most closly resembles and what is most strongly based off of, all in all thank you for informing me and making me do a more through background check of my school and our style

(End)

He never responded but maybe its cuz he was banned, so who knows if he even recieved it

Like i said i talked to some of my instructors about this, and they came pretty much point blank on the topic that Yes, i and the students are being taught RBWI(Whitch is a bit obviouse sence most of them wear some from of RBWI logo on them(Belt,Shirt,Pants,Ect)

Now from a Personal Stand Point, i dont care if you like Bussey, I dont Care if you like RBWI, or even if you guys like American Ninjutsu, but if you read through my posts or whatever, you shoudl notice that i dont go around saying, Bussey is all knowing! RBWI is the only true Ninjutsu! In fact i usally keep the American Ninjutsu, Bussey, and RBWI to my self unless i have to explain what Style i am coming from, and usally its generaly dropped after that. So what i would like to have come out of this is that like i said, you dont have to like me, or my style, but at lest have some respect about it, not like you guys are showing any disrespect anyhow, i dont even spend much time in the Tradition Ninjutsu forum becouse i know that this style is Modern, and if you would like to see more of the PMs to people i have sent (mainly with this Dallas guy) That even with his accusations that i am being lied to and mislead, and ripped off the majorty of my responces was for him to talk to my instructors, i even sent him a link to there site and email address, and also i told him that in order to confence me of anything to send my proof and not accusations about my School

Point is: I am a RBWI/American Ninjutsu Student and i am here to talk about Martial Arts not to defend my self everywhere (maybe 3 times here so far and yet at lest once everywhere i go and post about anything related to Ninjas and Ninjutsu especialy to people who dont even study MA whitch is a bit odd)


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## Kreth (Feb 27, 2005)

AnimEdge said:
			
		

> "at the age of only 18, and long before the out-break of "Ninja-mania," became a licensed instructor of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu under Masaaki Hatsumi which, in 1979, established Bussey as a pioneer of Ninjutsu in America. Bussey made history by sponsoring the first open U.S. meeting with Japan-trained instructors in hopes of setting the ground work for an international fellowship. Hatsumi proposed the Bussey would "father" American Ninjutsu as the Bujinkan's top representative. Bussey rejected the idea and instead chose a less conspicuous position by teaching only a handful of people in Nebraska and side-stepping the potential for political conflicts. "


This is the part that most of us have an issue with. For starters, rank licensing is not given out in individual schools, only in the Bujinkan as a whole. As for the claim that it was proposed that Bussey be the "top representative" of the Bujinkan, it's interesting that this version of events cannot be supported outside of his own website. 
Now again, Bussey is not, and never has been licensed as a Bujinkan instructor. If that statement can be publically disproven, then I will retract it just as publically. Until I see a godan or teaching certificate with his name on it, however, I will stand by it.

Jeff


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## Bester (Feb 27, 2005)

AE, I have no issue with you, so please, do not take this as a slight.

The problem with claiming "American Ninjutsu" as a style is that in most places, the serious martial artists understand that is is too often a 'catch all' for the scam artists like Tew, Dux and Kim.  Ninjutsu is a Japanese art.  Period. White man with fancy ideas not make it otherwise.  To the general public, Ninjas are Turtles or Hollywood fantasies (like the crap Tew Spews).  That is why Hayes and Hatsumi rebranded what they teach, to seperate themselves from those who use it simply as a marketing scheme.  You aren't doing a Japanese art, you aren't doing a traditional art so it gets confusing.  

You want to discuss Ninjutsu concepts, which is fine, unfortunately there is a "language" barrier. Which is a pity, since you seem like a decent person. 

I would say post in the general area, and when someone gives you grief, point them at your post prior to mine.  Let them judge you on your actions and sincerity, not what other "heads in asses" might state.  As to what you study, if it works for you, then, more power to you. I have yet to hear that Bussey's stuff is any good, but, I do not train in it, have never seen it and have not got alot to compare it to.

As to Mr. Severe, my understanding is that he has an axe to grind with the Bujikan or certain members of it, so should be taken with a very large grain of salt.

A modern forum would be nice, IF there was a simple way to weed out the fakirs and keep out the **** stirrers.  Unfortunately, certain former members were unable to handle the responsibility, take hints, etc.  You also have to think, how many legit moderns are there here?  It makes little sense for the staff to put aside a spot just for you.  In the past I have seen them say "show us there is an active need and we will build it."  

Maybe, you can be a positive pain about it.  Preface each thread [American Ninjutsu] and post it in the General Arts forum.  Tell others to do so as well.  If there is enough activity, let the staff know and maybe they will reconsider about setting up an AN area.  Who knows, they might even hire you.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 27, 2005)

Really, that is what the General section is for... You are welcome, and encouraged to discuss your art in the general section, Anim.


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## AnimEdge (Feb 28, 2005)

Well my first comment about the MN section was more of a half joke half question but then the whole bussey thing started up, i know you guys have no issue with me, and i have no issue with you guys here, whitch is why i like coming here to this forum becouse of its general openness, i just so happen to came in as a "American Ninjutsu" Student, so i usally stuck to the Modern Ninjutsu forum, that forum was a mix bag, i figured the Term Modern, and that it was movied to the Western Art was a good attempt to remove it from tradition styles thus giving it all more freedom, but looking through the old posts there, and even some of the posts here, there isnt really any meaningfull posts or discussions on Ninjutsu (maybe in tradition but havnt really looked) so i understand generaly why it was closed down due to the flaming and pointless bashing of styles, thats the downside to have any such forum, espcialy like MartialTalk where all forms of represented, sadly Ninjutsu seams to be having the most hard time playing well with others and thus was generaly removed.

Now about Bussy, I never met the guy, but i know peple that have, and even people that have trained with him for years under RBWI, the general word about him is that he is a nice overall guy. From what i have looked into his past is a bit iffy but i am willing to take it with a grain of salt untill i am overly proven otherwise, a bit reason of why im so suportive of my style is my instructors, none of them are in for the money and i view them as very honest and honorable(one of them is teaching at a Gay and lesbian Support Center in a rough area of Dallas in his spare time), but on the same time it can be said that even the most honorble person can be wrong, not only that but they are well skilled and seam to know very well what they are doing. Now if i was training under Bussey and he would even rarly discuss or even if my own teachers would talk about its "Traditional" Past then i woudl start to worry but weather its good or bad no one really talks about it. But on the same note on his site and other places, once RBWI was establish he tryed to remove himself from the Ninjutsu name, and just kept it at RBWI, but for the sake of convenuince and other such reasons it was generaly known as Ninjutsu

Now the name American Ninjutsu is something that i did not choose, it was choosen pretty much as a sub-name to PPC: Personal Protections Concept, i believe that that name was choosen to be broad, Personal Protections Concept could be use for like the use of Guns, or weapons alone, security personel ect ect. Once again i wasnt there and i didnt have a vote. When i mention what i do i generaly leave it broad, when most people ask ou what MA you Study in, i generaly Say Ninjutsu, and if they ask what kind i say eather Modern or American, once again to leave it broad, rarely am i asked to go into more detail whitch even then i keep short and broad. Personaly i woudl rather call it American Ninjutsu than PPC and even better i woudl like to call it what it is: RBWI, but like i said we cant so 

You are right about the language barrier problem, we use English names when it comes to attacks and techniques, we call a armbar a armbar, a figure four arm lock, a figure four arm lock, and ect, sure its not as kool as saying the japanese version but its easyer to understand and read, but on the same side limits me in discussion of other styles who do not use this name.

What i like about my style is its openness and broadness about everything, it generaly has a set group of techniques using hand to hand, knifes, swords, nets, bo staffs, ect ect, but yet it is completly open to where one of your instructors also has started studing in some form of Kung Fu(i forget exactly) and every so often he will descuss about it and even add it into our own style, he even makes up his own, and even counters to it as well, sometime not allways practical but is fun to watch  Now i still have about 4 years left tell i become instructor(been here for about a year) and due to school and such i plan on just studing AN for the time being, after words i would love to learn other styles, Kendo, Kempo, Kung Fu, ect ect and generaly merge them in to my teachings whenever i start my own AN School(Non-profit at a gym/recreational building ect ect) but that is years from now

All in all i really enjoy it here and becouse i study a Style people might think isnt a true style or under some people who may or may not have mastered under some one i dont want to be sterotyped off and pushed to the side becouse of diffrent views, now i must add that being here i have not had that happen to me besides comments about bussey on how he may or may not have became what he says he is but that is not the point 

Oh and technopunk i keep mixing you up with Enson, who is apperently Banned 

But really though as long as we are all after the same thing, the enjoyment of martial arts and person protection who really cares about the details, at lest i try not to.

Oh and if you even open up the Modern Again i wouldnt mind Admining it 
It coming back is a far shot but hey might as well try


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## Cryozombie (Mar 1, 2005)

AnimEdge said:
			
		

> Oh and technopunk i keep mixing you up with Enson, who is apperently Banned


 Dont do that.


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## AnimEdge (Mar 1, 2005)

Well i dont mean to, no offience or anything


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## Don Roley (Mar 2, 2005)

AnimEdge said:
			
		

> What i like about my style is its openness and broadness about everything, it generaly has a set group of techniques using hand to hand, knifes, swords, nets, bo staffs, ect ect, but yet it is completly open to where one of your instructors also has started studing in some form of Kung Fu(i forget exactly) and every so often he will descuss about it and even add it into our own style, he even makes up his own, and even counters to it as well, sometime not allways practical but is fun to watch



The problem I can see reading the above (aside from Bussey's lack of credentials to teach ninjutsu, etc) is that you make it sound more like a mixed martial art than something that can be called ninjutsu. If you want to discuss the new aspects of your art like spinning back kicks or Chinese broad sword, there may be problems with others since ninjutsu does not have these types of things in them in Japan or in Toshindo, etc.

IIRC, you once posted something about your style of knife fighting in a thread devoted to the way it is done in Japan. It is not that we are saying that what you do does not have merit. But I think a lot of people come here and not other sections to discuss ninjutsu and not the inovations taken from Chinese and other arts. We have the option on MartialTalk to go to sections devoted to Chinese and other arts if we wish.

I think that if you try to keep this in mind when you post, there will be a lot less friction between you and other members.


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## AnimEdge (Mar 2, 2005)

From what i know (and hope) is that there isnt any friction between me and any members i was just generalizing

From what i know is that it follows the original(or last i would guess) RBWI teachings and we dont really go out much father than that but it is generaly known that if we wanted to add Chinese Broad Sword Techs, or to add something from Kung-Fu that we generaly can becouse nothing really says we can not

I dont know enought about MMA to conisder it, even if i did, im not incharge to change it  But isnt MMA generaly what you see in UFC? or Submission fighting? if so then i dont think we are much of a MMA style, this is what made the term Modern Ninjutsu so great  we fit under that term more than any other from what i can tell, its just our "past" that is the problem. Anyhow after i graduate College(whitch should be around the time i become a instructor) i plan on going into more styles so who knows what i will teach when its my time  Now if they told me they were teaching me *insert style* and i found out that they are lieing to me then i woudl be upset and leave, if my instructors came to me and said hey for 299$ ill make you a black belt i woudl just walk away, but from what i could tell is that no one has said that i am being taught *traditional name here* Ninjutsu, but they dont, they just say American Ninjutsu based off RBWI (whitch a lil more looking one would see that we are being taught RBWI)

Actually, what i woudl like to know is what would RBWI be consedered? and then go with that, but i guess its consedered a Modern Ninjutsu style so who knows anymore


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## Zanzor (Mar 29, 2005)

Just happened across this forum, and wanted to add my support of what ... has stated. From what Ive read so far he is inline with what "American Ninjutsu" under PPC is.



I personally began training under RBWI back in 1990 and to this date am associated with PPC teaching American Ninjutsu.  Which I make clear to anyone interested in learning in my school in North Carolina, that I DO NOT teach "traditional" Ninjutsu. But "American" Ninjutsu under PPC.



Tim Ross

American Ninjutsu Academy of High Point

4defend.com


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## STEPS (Mar 17, 2009)

Kreth said:


> This is the part that most of us have an issue with. For starters, rank licensing is not given out in individual schools, only in the Bujinkan as a whole.
> 
> Jeff



I don't have an opinion of Bussey either way. It doesn't affect my training. But I do have to correct you on this one man. All of the old school foreigner's first few ranks from Hatsumi Sensei said "Togakure Ryu Ninpo or Ninjutsu or Ninpo Taijutsu" on their Dan Menkyo. Stephen Hayes, Doron Navon, etc. all have their initial few black belt ranks in Togakure Ryu until the Bujinkan was formally put into place. So I wouldn't be surprised if Robert had Togakure Ryu rank also. Which in the end, is just a piece of paper anyway.


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