# this is a sad state of affairs



## Twin Fist

you got so called masters dogging on people FOR WINNING

you got other so called masters advocating for the removal of hand techniques

NO WONDER TKD is becomming the laughing stock of martial arts

and this crap and the people spewing it all have one thing in common:
WTF

i swear, that craptastic body in korea will kill this art if they are allowed to.


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## ETinCYQX

I hear the same thing locally, too, we've been killing Taekwondo for 15 years if you listen to some of the instructors. We killed it twice in November and again in January. Those of us who remember why we started, why we compete and why we teach kids to do the same thing will keep it alive. Taekwondo will outlive me, my kids, my kid's kid's because there will always be real martial artists in the Kukkiwon, the ITF and even the WTF who will keep it alive. 

What matters is the kids. I go teach and there's a half dozen kids wearing doboks who want to learn what I have to show them, and I'm sure everyone else has the same thing. Those are the new generation, the next crop of great martial artists who will reinvent Taekwondo and take it into the future. 

Look at Judo, they supposedly killed that in the 90's and again when newaza started getting phased out. Because we have newaza time limits we have some of the best Judo groundfighters ever just because they're so explosive and powerful.


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## mastercole

We don't have to look to Korea, what ruins Taekwondo can be found in the spirit of this this thread.


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## ralphmcpherson

Twin Fist said:


> you got so called masters dogging on people FOR WINNING
> 
> you got other so called masters advocating for the removal of hand techniques
> 
> NO WONDER TKD is becomming the laughing stock of martial arts
> 
> and this crap and the people spewing it all have one thing in common:
> WTF
> 
> i swear, that craptastic body in korea will kill this art if they are allowed to.


we also have kong soo do starting an interesting thread asking about the different training approaches from different clubs. Two people jump on the thread and accuse him of having an agenda, and posting the thread to highlight perceived weaknesses of "sport tkd". What the? He just asked a question, no malice, no style bashing, nothing sinister, but people jump on and accuse him of such things. Sometimes I wish the tkd section was split in two- one section for those who train/instruct/compete/ coach sport tkd and a second for those interested in the martial art side of tkd.  My instructor told me a long time ago that tkd is split, and I honestly had no idea what he meant. Im starting to understand now.


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## puunui

mastercole said:


> We don't have to look to Korea, what ruins Taekwondo can be found in the spirit of this this thread.



I think that sentiment is dying though, the "taekwondo sucks, it doesn't have face punches, it is no good for self defense, it is a sport and not a real martial art", etc. I think the majority of students (and their parents) today aren't looking for that eye poking, face punching, hard core "that guy who attacked me is sure lucky there isn't a broom handle in the alley" type of mentality. they don't want that for their kids. They don't want their kids to poke someone's eye out, or maim them or learn the old "it's better to get judged by twelve than carried by six" type of thing. They want some physical exercise, they want their kids to have fun, they want their kids to lose weight and get off the sofa and put down the playstation or wii and get out of the house. 

If people do want that sort of thing, they aren't showing up to a taekwondo class. They are going someplace else.


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## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> you got other so called masters advocating for the removal of hand techniques



I am not advocating for the removal of hand techniques in taekwondo, just in the competition format, shihap kyorugi. You can punch all you want in self defense, in poomsae, in kyuk pa, where ever else in taekwondo. Or do you find it too hard to compartmentalize like that?


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## Twin Fist

take out punches.....better not call it tkd then, call it korean ballet or something....


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## Twin Fist

there you have it folks, right from the horse's mouth

TKD, its for fat kids. If you want self defense, go elsewhere.


i think i am gonna vomit



puunui said:


> I think that sentiment is dying though, the "taekwondo sucks, it doesn't have face punches, it is no good for self defense, it is a sport and not a real martial art", etc. I think the majority of students (and their parents) today aren't looking for that eye poking, face punching, hard core "that guy who attacked me is sure lucky there isn't a broom handle in the alley" type of mentality. they don't want that for their kids. They don't want their kids to poke someone's eye out, or maim them or learn the old "it's better to get judged by twelve than carried by six" type of thing. They want some physical exercise, they want their kids to have fun, they want their kids to lose weight and get off the sofa and put down the playstation or wii and get out of the house.
> 
> If people do want that sort of thing, they aren't showing up to a taekwondo class. They are going someplace else.


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## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> take out punches.....better not call it tkd then, call it korean ballet or something....



And when taekwondo keeps punches in, it gets accused of being a rip off of karate.


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## Twin Fist

cuz it was.


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## Twin Fist

and another thing, since when do 6th dans get to call themselves GRANDmaster

the ****ing ego in some people is sickening


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## ETinCYQX

According to the WTF I'm Master Terris. I'm a 19 year old first dan, I ain't master of ****. I don't go by it obviously


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## SPX

Twin Fist, you certainly pick on WTF TKD a lot.  What is your opinion of the ITF version of the art?


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## Twin Fist

i think their sparring rules are great. the schools in general all teach solid self defense in my experience.

I will eat a bullit before i do sine wave tho.


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## ETinCYQX

Twin Fist said:


> i think their sparring rules are great. the schools in general all teach solid self defense in my experience.
> 
> I will eat a bullit before i do sine wave tho.



I don't think I've agreed with you yet but I find your directness refreshing, I have to respect that.


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## Twin Fist

i just tell it the way i see it


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## SPX

Twin Fist said:


> i think their sparring rules are great. the schools in general all teach solid self defense in my experience.
> 
> I will eat a bullit before i do sine wave tho.



I agree for the most part.  It's a well-balanced art and the sparring rules are pretty great, all in all.

I also hate sine wave, but I'd be willing to endure it if I could be part of a great ITF school.  It's not like you're expected to spar like that.


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## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> I agree for the most part.  It's a well-balanced art and the sparring rules are pretty great, all in all.
> 
> I also hate sine wave, but I'd be willing to endure it if I could be part of a great ITF school.  It's not like you're expected to spar like that.


we've had a lot of itf guys come and train with us, they are very well rounded. The wtf guys are good too generally, but when we start to do punching in sparring they are like a fish out of water. It doesnt take them long to get the hang of it, but at first if you rush them with a flurry of punches to the head they back peddle really quick. They actually punch quite well, but just need to learn how to incorporate it into fighting.


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## SPX

ralphmcpherson said:


> we've had a lot of itf guys come and train with us, they are very well rounded. The wtf guys are good too generally, but when we start to do punching in sparring they are like a fish out of water. It doesnt take them long to get the hang of it, but at first if you rush them with a flurry of punches to the head they back peddle really quick. They actually punch quite well, but just need to learn how to incorporate it into fighting.



The WTF school I'm involved with now is purely sport oriented.  I haven't seen a single punch throw yet after a few weeks of classes.  (Not to say that no WTF schools teach good punching technique.)

If I wasn't also studying wado-ryu then I'd have a problem with it, but under the circumstances, I'm just looking at it as pure sport.


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## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> The WTF school I'm involved with now is purely sport oriented.  I haven't seen a single punch throw yet after a few weeks of classes.  (Not to say that no WTF schools teach good punching technique.)
> 
> If I wasn't also studying wado-ryu then I'd have a problem with it, but under the circumstances, I'm just looking at it as pure sport.


and thats where the problem lies. I have a mate who does kukkiwon tkd and he'd punch a hole right through you, but I have another mate who does kukkiwon tkd and wouldnt even know the basic fundamentals behind a punch, and he is a black belt. What happens when he moves town and his "transferable" kkw certification results in him prancing around in a black belt in a new school and cant punch. Ahh, where are the standards?


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## ETinCYQX

Ahh, yeah, but it's always been that way. Probably always will. It's up to the individual instructor to watch standards, the KKW doesn't.

EDIT: Hey, look, black belt!


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## puunui

ETinCYQX said:


> Ahh, yeah, but it's always been that way. Probably always will. It's up to the individual instructor to watch standards, the KKW doesn't.



If that were true, then 40 or 60% of the skip dan candidates at the US Open wouldn't have failed or not taken the test because they knew they would fail.


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## ETinCYQX

What other gradings does the KKW control though? They had nothing to do with my BB except mailing me the certificate nor anyone elses I know of, that's up to the instructor


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## puunui

ETinCYQX said:


> What other gradings does the KKW control though? They had nothing to do with my BB except mailing me the certificate nor anyone elses I know of, that's up to the instructor



they shouldn't have mailed it to you directly. usually they send it to the instructor directly. They also control the kukkiwon instructor course grading, as well as the hanmadang international referee gradings, which people have flunked before.


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## SPX

ETinCYQX said:


> EDIT: Hey, look, black belt!



I actually noticed that. 

Congrats on your MartialTalk black belt, LOL!


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## ETinCYQX

puunui said:


> they shouldn't have mailed it to you directly. usually they send it to the instructor directly. They also control the kukkiwon instructor course grading, as well as the hanmadang international referee gradings, which people have flunked before.



They did send it to my instructor, yeah.

My ref cert is provincial, not KKW, wasn't even aware they had a ref certification. Thought it was WTF that did that. The instructor's course I knew about. 

As badly expressed as it was, my point was that they don't do anything aside from sign the form for most gradings and they don't watch to make sure dojangs are doing things right



SPX said:


> I actually noticed that.
> 
> Congrats on your MartialTalk black belt, LOL!



Thanks SPX :bangahead:


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## MSUTKD

What I find a sad state of affairs is people claiming to be martial arts teachers, practitioners and self-defense gurus representing the arts with a completely out of shape body.  What kind of message does this send to those involved or wanting to get in to martial arts?  

For those who claim to be such pragmatic self-defense aficionados how can you even protect yourself if you cannot act physically?   Logic would tell me that if self-defense was my goal the prowess of my body would be the number one goal, since that is the tool which must be used.  

I laugh at the people who naysay sport in martial arts.  Sport is not the end all but I believe that it is part of the puzzle that makes one good.  Sport is just a tool for me to test, albeit under conditions, my skills.


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## SahBumNimRush

puunui said:


> I am not advocating for the removal of hand techniques in taekwondo, just in the competition format, shihap kyorugi. You can punch all you want in self defense, in poomsae, in kyuk pa, where ever else in taekwondo. Or do you find it too hard to compartmentalize like that?



Again, this is not my area of expertise, but why do you advocate taking punches out of sparring competition?  It is Tae*kwon*do.


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## andyjeffries

MSUTKD said:


> What I find a sad state of affairs is people claiming to be martial arts teachers, practitioners and self-defense gurus representing the arts with a completely out of shape body.  What kind of message does this send to those involved or wanting to get in to martial arts?



That martial arts are not only for the super fit elite?

As the owner of a "completely out of shape body" (although I'm trying to change it) I still feel that I have something to offer students.  I started a club teaching last september and have a happy bunch of kids that I'm teaching who seem completely unconcerned with my body shape.

I'm not a sport naysayer nor a self-defence aficionado, I'm just a general Kukki-Taekwondo instructor passing on what I learnt.  I believe that there is a place for everyone in Taekwondo and that it has something to offer of benefit to everyone.  I don't see why I should stop helping other people because of my body shape.


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## andyjeffries

SahBumNimRush said:


> Again, this is not my area of expertise, but why do you advocate taking punches out of sparring competition?  It is Tae*kwon*do.



Because the sparring competition doesn't represent the whole of Taekwondo.  There is also poomsae (a lot more hand techniques than kicks), kyukpa, other forms of sparring.

I don't necessarily have strong feelings about removing punches from shihap kyorugi either way, but I wouldn't object on the basis that it's removing part of the name - there are already enough restrictions in shihap kyorugi compared to the complete Taekwondo syllabus that removing of punches (which are largely ineffective and underused in competition anyway) wouldn't be a big deal.

Just my 2p worth...


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## MSUTKD

andyjeffries said:


> That martial arts are not only for the super fit elite?
> 
> As the owner of a "completely out of shape body" (although I'm trying to change it) I still feel that I have something to offer students.  I started a club teaching last september and have a happy bunch of kids that I'm teaching who seem completely unconcerned with my body shape.
> 
> I'm not a sport naysayer nor a self-defence aficionado, I'm just a general Kukki-Taekwondo instructor passing on what I learnt.  I believe that there is a place for everyone in Taekwondo and that it has something to offer of benefit to everyone.  I don't see why I should stop helping other people because of my body shape.



But you do not make claims about being something your not Andy - respect to you.


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## SahBumNimRush

I believe sport has a place in martial arts, as well as self-defense.  People ultimately get what they want or they leave to find it somewhere else.  I don't think that bashing someone else's interpretation of the art is conducive to correcting/uplifting our image. 

That said, the only thing I can control is inside my dojang, and the only way to contribute to making a change on a larger scale is through an organization.  If you aren't involved outside of your school, then I don't believe you have the right to bash or judge others.  

This post isn't directed towards any one individual, it is only my personal opinion on the matter.  I don't concern myself with the image of ITF, WTF, KKW, ATA, etc, because it isn't representing me.  I do enjoy learning about these organizations and what goes on in other dojangs, but I'm not going to be offended if it isn't what I would do if I were in those shoes.


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## SahBumNimRush

andyjeffries said:


> Because the sparring competition doesn't represent the whole of Taekwondo.  There is also poomsae (a lot more hand techniques than kicks), kyukpa, other forms of sparring.
> 
> I don't necessarily have strong feelings about removing punches from shihap kyorugi either way, but I wouldn't object on the basis that it's removing part of the name - there are already enough restrictions in shihap kyorugi compared to the complete Taekwondo syllabus that removing of punches (which are largely ineffective and underused in competition anyway) wouldn't be a big deal.
> 
> Just my 2p worth...



Fair enough, again, this is not my area of expertise, so I was genuinely curious as to the reasoning.  While in my experience, punches are very effective in sparring, I do not spar under the Olympic style sparring rule set.


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## dancingalone

andyjeffries said:


> I don't necessarily have strong feelings about removing punches from shihap kyorugi either way, but I wouldn't object on the basis that it's removing part of the name - there are already enough restrictions in shihap kyorugi compared to the complete Taekwondo syllabus that removing of punches (which are largely ineffective and underused in competition anyway) wouldn't be a big deal.
> 
> Just my 2p worth...



I probably misunderstand the whole shihap kyorugi thing, but IMO punches even those to the body should be very effective even if judges refuse to score them.  If you have a good punch, punish the other guy when he is standing next to you trying to kick you.  A couple of unpleasant ones to the torso should soften him up and make him easier to counterattack.


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## miguksaram

MSUTKD said:


> What I find a sad state of affairs is people claiming to be martial arts teachers, practitioners and self-defense gurus representing the arts with a completely out of shape body.  What kind of message does this send to those involved or wanting to get in to martial arts?



I don't believe they have to be in sport conditioned shape, or even have a slim/trim body, but I do believe they should be able to handle an entire workout that they dish out to the classes without the fear of needing a defib.


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## Twin Fist

i know plenty of fat guys that can get in there and throw down Ron. A LOT of them in fact. a person's physical condition has exactly zero to do with thier ability to teach or perform.


my gut doesnt stop me from being able to teach someone how to do a technique. sure, i cant do everythign as well as i used to, but thats as much age as condition.




MSUTKD said:


> What I find a sad state of affairs is people claiming to be martial arts teachers, practitioners and self-defense gurus representing the arts with a completely out of shape body.  What kind of message does this send to those involved or wanting to get in to martial arts?
> 
> For those who claim to be such pragmatic self-defense aficionados how can you even protect yourself if you cannot act physically?   Logic would tell me that if self-defense was my goal the prowess of my body would be the number one goal, since that is the tool which must be used.
> 
> I laugh at the people who naysay sport in martial arts.  Sport is not the end all but I believe that it is part of the puzzle that makes one good.  Sport is just a tool for me to test, albeit under conditions, my skills.


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## andyjeffries

MSUTKD said:


> But you do not make claims about being something your not Andy - respect to you.



Thank you Master Southwick.


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## andyjeffries

dancingalone said:


> I probably misunderstand the whole shihap kyorugi thing, but IMO punches even those to the body should be very effective even if judges refuse to score them.  If you have a good punch, punish the other guy when he is standing next to you trying to kick you.  A couple of unpleasant ones to the torso should soften him up and make him easier to counterattack.



Personally I've never really noticed punches during sparring.  Every so often when someone catches you absolutely right, with the right timing, distance and power then it goes through the hogu, but they never bothered me in general.  That said, quick a few kicks if they land with power you'll feel (even if the timing/distance isn't perfect).

Given that WTF players (at least we always used to, I haven't trained like the elite fighters of today) learn to ride a powerful shot rather than absorb the impact while stationary, I can't imagine punches are going to do a lot against a guy "standing next to you trying to kick you".


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## andyjeffries

miguksaram said:


> I don't believe they have to be in sport conditioned shape, or even have a slim/trim body, but I do believe they should be able to handle an entire workout that they dish out to the classes without the fear of needing a defib.



I agree and I can do that.  I'd like to be able to handle more, but it's a slow processing getting to a slim/trim body...


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## dancingalone

andyjeffries said:


> Personally I've never really noticed punches during sparring.  Every so often when someone catches you absolutely right, with the right timing, distance and power then it goes through the hogu, but they never bothered me in general.  That said, quick a few kicks if they land with power you'll feel (even if the timing/distance isn't perfect).
> 
> Given that WTF players (at least we always used to, I haven't trained like the elite fighters of today) learn to ride a powerful shot rather than absorb the impact while stationary, I can't imagine punches are going to do a lot against a guy "standing next to you trying to kick you".



Then respectfully, these players don't really know how to punch.  Not in an explosive fashion, not with what the Okinawans call chinkuchi.


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## MSUTKD

Twin Fist said:


> i know plenty of fat guys that can get in there and throw down Ron. A LOT of them in fact. a person's physical condition has exactly zero to do with thier ability to teach or perform.
> 
> 
> my gut doesnt stop me from being able to teach someone how to do a technique. sure, i cant do everythign as well as i used to, but thats as much age as condition.



I know A LOT that think they can.

As martial artist dont we have a responsibility to practice what we preach?  Shouldnt we lead from the front?  Arent we the ones that should be trying to continue to get better and achieve more?  How can you ask things from your students that you NEVER did or even tried?  

John, I think that if ones physical condition does not enable them to perform - that is a problem; age, excluded for those who had put in a lifetime, but not for us under 55.

I am not the best but I will continue to train hard, not talk hard.  I want my students to know that it never ends.


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## Twin Fist

MSUTKD said:


> John, I think that if ones physical condition does not enable them to perform - that is a problem



and if it doesnt, then it isnt.


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## andyjeffries

dancingalone said:


> Then respectfully, these players don't really know how to punch.  Not in an explosive fashion, not with what the Okinawans call chinkuchi.



I don't disagree.  The Taekwondoin I've sparred against and fought against don't have the sort of punching power that a boxer or (I guess) an Okinawan Te fighter would have.  

However, given the fact that the WTF doesn't really score them and as you put it they are useful for softening them up rather than scoring, isn't it better to spend the time that you'd have to dedicate to developing that sort of explosive punching power on developing your kicking which would score?


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## dancingalone

andyjeffries said:


> However, given the fact that the WTF doesn't really score them and as you put it they are useful for softening them up rather than scoring, isn't it better to spend the time that you'd have to dedicate to developing that sort of explosive punching power on developing your kicking which would score?



I don't know.  Being exceptional with your hands might be a key differentiator.


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## SahBumNimRush

andyjeffries said:


> I don't disagree.  The Taekwondoin I've sparred against and fought against don't have the sort of punching power that a boxer or (I guess) an Okinawan Te fighter would have.
> 
> However, given the fact that the WTF doesn't really score them and as you put it they are useful for softening them up rather than scoring, isn't it better to spend the time that you'd have to dedicate to developing that sort of explosive punching power on developing your kicking which would score?



This highlights the difference in rule sets.  If you cannot score with a technique, why practice it?  Or from an organization's point of view, if you wish to promote a technique then you should probably include it in a competition format so that there is emphasis placed on said technique in the dojang.  Understandably, certain techniques are shied away from due to safety (i.e. open hand techniques, knee kicks, groin kicks, etc.).  

I don't have feelings one way or another on the WTF rule set, since I do not compete in those competitions.  If there are other avenues that puts equal focus on hand techniques in that curriculum, then I don't see it as a hinderance.  That said, I could see how schools that are driven by competition could allow these areas of focus to fall by the way side and be severely lacking in hand technique and power generation.  This could explain why certain KKW schools lack in hand power/technique, while others do not.  Again, this is only conjecture from an outsider looking in.. .


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## Cyriacus

andyjeffries said:


> I don't disagree.  The Taekwondoin I've sparred against and fought against don't have the sort of punching power that a boxer or (I guess) an Okinawan Te fighter would have.
> 
> However, given the fact that the WTF doesn't really score them and as you put it they are useful for softening them up rather than scoring, isn't it better to spend the time that you'd have to dedicate to developing that sort of explosive punching power on developing your kicking which would score?


Yep. I havent spent much time around those types of Dojangs, and have in fact seen the opposite balance for the most part (Punching>Kicking), but, Your Logic is perfect. Its much like how Boxers use Jabs to set themselves up. The Jab isnt as powerful as the Lead Straight, but its the most common use of it to set up their Main Arsenal.


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## sadantkd

ETinCYQX said:


> According to the WTF I'm Master Terris. I'm a 19 year old first dan, I ain't master of ****. I don't go by it obviously



Ummm, how do you figure you're a master according to the WTF if you're a 1st dan?


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## Cyriacus

sadantkd said:


> Ummm, how do you figure you're a master according to the WTF if you're a 1st dan?


He never claimed He saw it that way, but that They do


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## miguksaram

andyjeffries said:


> I agree and I can do that.  I'd like to be able to handle more, but it's a slow processing getting to a slim/trim body...


But you are in the process and that is the key.  So many times I have heard from older instructors "I've already paid my dues." as an excuse why they have not worked out or trained.  I'm sorry but I witnessed GM Vo up at 3am in the morning in Korea doing forms, if anyone had paid their dues, it's him.  The guys who get through a set of jumping jacks and then act as though the world was suddenly depleted of oxygen, need to get back on the mat in class, not just show a few quick hand motions and call it a day.


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## sadantkd

I know, but they don't, do they?  I always thought, and at every school I've ever been to, master is 4th dan and above.  If I'm wrong about that, then it's news to me.


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## sopraisso

ETinCYQX said:


> Ahh, yeah, but it's always been that way. Probably always will. It's up to the individual instructor to watch standards, the KKW doesn't.
> 
> EDIT: Hey, look, black belt!



[This thread is interesting and I'm still going to read it accordingly, but some events requires urgent participation]

*Hey hey hey! Congrats for your black belt, ETinCYQX!*


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## ETinCYQX

sadantkd said:


> I know, but they don't, do they?  I always thought, and at every school I've ever been to, master is 4th dan and above.  If I'm wrong about that, then it's news to me.



There was some confusion about it around the time the new Poomsae uniforms were a hot topic. Consensus was it was mistranslated but the KKW still says that 1-4th dan is Master and 5th+ is Grandmaster. 



sopraisso said:


> [This thread is interesting and I'm still going to read it accordingly, but some events requires urgent participation]
> 
> *Hey hey hey! Congrats for your black belt, ETinCYQX!*



Haha, thank you sopraisso


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## Gemini

Twin Fist said:


> NO WONDER TKD is becomming the laughing stock of martial arts


 Not sure who's laughing. I was at an MMA event here in Vegas last weekend, and met 3 fighters that stated Taekwondo was the foundation of their training. They had great respect for it. More to the point, I've heard comments like this from time to time, but never face to face. What does that tell you?



Twin Fist said:


> and this crap and the people spewing it all have one thing in common:
> WTF
> 
> i swear, that craptastic body in korea will kill this art if they are allowed to.


 If there's a single martial sport that demonstrates an accurate representation to the art it's associated to, I don't know it. I'm a huge fan of sparring, though it isn't the primary focus of my training.


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## Twin Fist

Gemini said:


> Not sure who's laughing. I was at an MMA event here in Vegas last weekend, and met 3 fighters that stated Taekwondo was the foundation of their training. They had great respect for it. More to the point, I've heard comments like this from time to time, but never face to face. What does that tell you?



that people are very nice to you?

that you dont see/hear what you dont want to see or hear? i dont know.



Gemini said:


> If there's a single martial sport that demonstrates an accurate representation to the art it's associated to, I don't know it. I'm a huge fan of sparring, though it isn't the primary focus of my training.



i dont know, isnt sport judo pretty accurate? i mean, judo is judo.


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## RobinTKD

I'm just about to leave for my Judo class, but a brilliant discussion thankfully devoid of trolling. I'll post my thoughts when I'm back.


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## sopraisso

dancingalone said:


> I don't know.  Being exceptional with your hands might be a key differentiator.



I'd say it at least _should_ be a key differentiator. But I don't know if there's an reasonable chance of that happenning in WTF "elite" sparring.

Or maybe WTF practitioners are just not trained with that option in mind. Maybe if their coaches admited that option and started exploring that aspect of sparring even shihap kyorugi would look a little more interesting. Maybe...


----------



## SPX

andyjeffries said:


> However, given the fact that the WTF doesn't really score them . . .



Wait wait wait . . . what?

There's a discussion on this very topic going on in one of my threads:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?100933-Punches-in-WTF-TKD

Do judges ever consciously not score punches or not?  Some say yes, some say no.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> i dont know, isnt sport judo pretty accurate? i mean, judo is judo.



not since they deemphasized groundwork.


----------



## SPX

dancingalone said:


> I don't know.  Being exceptional with your hands might be a key differentiator.



My thoughts exactly.

I think it would be hard to use "softening up" punches because of the hogu, but I really think a good Shotokan-style lunging punch could be a valuable weapon.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> I think it would be hard to use "softening up" punches because of the hogu, but I really think a good Shotokan-style lunging punch could be a valuable weapon.



The hogu can be penetrated with kicks and punches. I guess it provides some protection, but I always thought of the hogu as defining the scoring area.


----------



## SPX

sopraisso said:


> I'd say it at least _should_ be a key differentiator. But I don't know if there's an reasonable chance of that happenning in WTF "elite" sparring.
> 
> Or maybe WTF practitioners are just not trained with that option in mind. Maybe if their coaches admited that option and started exploring that aspect of sparring even shihap kyorugi would look a little more interesting. Maybe...




Sometimes it just takes one new guy to start doing things differently and find success with an unconventional method to change the look of a sport.  Fighters just have to think creatively.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> The hogu can be penetrated with kicks and punches. I guess it provides some protection, but I always thought of the hogu as defining the scoring area.



I wore one for the first time the other day and it was a lot harder than I expected.  I really think it would be difficult to soften a person up with lots of repeated blows in the same way that a Koyokushin fighter does because the hogu would absorb a lot of the impact.

That is, of course, not to say that you couldn't hurt someone with a punch, but I think it would have to be a strong power blow.


----------



## SPX

Gemini said:


> If there's a single martial sport that demonstrates an accurate representation to the art it's associated to, I don't know it. I'm a huge fan of sparring, though it isn't the primary focus of my training.



BUT I assume you would agree that the goal in sparring should be to get as close as possible to using the full curriculum while maintaining safety.

I really don't think the key to preserving TKD's kick-centric focus is in not scoring punches or not allowing punches to the head.  ITF TKD allows punches to the head, but you still see far more kicks than punches.  Why?  Because kicks score more.

The key is in the scoring system, not in restricting techniques.


----------



## Gemini

Twin Fist said:


> that people are very nice to you?


Lol. Maybe. But then, I always try to treat people with respect and I train hard, so why shouldn't they. 



Twin Fist said:


> that you dont see/hear what you dont want to see or hear? i dont know.


Possibly, but not likely. I like to think I keep an open mind. My point is, I hear stuff like that a lot on boards and such at a safe distance, not in person. The point I was trying to get to earlier and then completely left out was that 2 of those MAA fighters still complete in the WTF circuit.


SPX said:


> BUT I assume you would agree that the goal in sparring should be to get as close as possible to using the full curriculum while maintaining safety.
> 
> I really don't think the key to preserving TKD's kick-centric focus is in not scoring punches or not allowing punches to the head.  ITF TKD allows punches to the head, but you still see far more kicks than punches.  Why?  Because kicks score more.
> 
> The key is in the scoring system, not in restricting techniques.


Then we should immediately dismiss all point sparring. Stop and review after each point? Really? That's realistic. Not to mention the tap tag referred to as "punching" in tournaments I've seen. I touched your face so let's stop and see if i get a point. Do they teach that in class? I bet not. Again, my point being there is no sport version of a martial art that doesn't have its flaws and its advantages. Even MMA, which is considered by most to be the most authentic martial sport out there has obvious deviations from reality. The one thing they all do have in common is the dedication and talent required to excel at them. Would I like to see punching? Sure, along with every other type of strike we practice, but to even imply that because the rules are what they are is diminishing Taekwondo or any other art is pretty far fetched in my opinion. The only thing that will cause the opinion of Taekwondo to deminish as a martial art is the effectiveness of its practitioners, not the rules of the sport.

Some would imply that those who focus primarily on sparring aren't capable martial artists. I don't agree.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> I wore one for the first time the other day and it was a lot harder than I expected.  I really think it would be difficult to soften a person up with lots of repeated blows in the same way that a Koyokushin fighter does because the hogu would absorb a lot of the impact. That is, of course, not to say that you couldn't hurt someone with a punch, but I think it would have to be a strong power blow.



Your job is to train such that you can soften up your opponent using punches on the hogu. That is the meaning and purpose of training, to do things that untrained people cannot do.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> BUT I assume you would agree that the goal in sparring should be to get as close as possible to using the full curriculum while maintaining safety.
> 
> I really don't think the key to preserving TKD's kick-centric focus is in not scoring punches or not allowing punches to the head.  ITF TKD allows punches to the head, but you still see far more kicks than punches.  Why?  Because kicks score more.
> 
> The key is in the scoring system, not in restricting techniques.



Here is what GM LEE Chong Woo says about it: 

When you look at all the sports, boxing employs hand techniques using the fist, and
therefore I decided we should develop Taekwondo as a sport emphasizing foot
techniques. We restricted hand techniques and we developed competition rules for
Taekwondo mainly emphasizing kicking techniques . . .&#8221;

&#8220;Since some people objected that Taekwondo is a sport combining foot and hand
techniques, and that eliminating the point for a punch is not fair, the rules have been
modified now. Punches are allowed, but it is a violation if the punch is to the face. In
any sport, there should be a unique factor to develop. In other words, soccer is a sport in
which you kick with your feet. In basketball, you throw with your hands. These are the
unique factors. Therefore, we decided to go with the focus on the feet.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> Your job is to train such that you can soften up your opponent using punches on the hogu. That is the meaning and purpose of training, to do things that untrained people cannot do.



Yes, but you still have to deal with the laws of physics and whatnot.

I'm just saying that if you're going to use punches in WTF matches you probably want to act as if you're breaking a board and not just hitting a guy with no protection.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> In any sport, there should be a unique factor to develop. In other words, soccer is a sport in which you kick with your feet. In basketball, you throw with your hands. These are the
> unique factors. Therefore, we decided to go with the focus on the feet.



You see, this analogy isn't perfect, though.  Because it's not like in soccer there are techniques in the sport to place the ball in the goal with your hands . . . but these techniques are just not allowed in competition.  I'm sure that if that were the case then people would decry it as foolishness.

And like I said above, you can allow hands to the head and still maintain it as a primarily kicking aspect via the scoring system.  Also, you can limit the amount of hand techniques that can be thrown in succession without throwing a kick.

I mean, just watch this vid and note the kick-to-punch ratio:


----------



## Twin Fist

SPX said:


>



now THAT is some good TKD


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> Yes, but you still have to deal with the laws of physics and whatnot.
> 
> I'm just saying that if you're going to use punches in WTF matches you probably want to act as if you're breaking a board and not just hitting a guy with no protection.



Think about adapting and overcoming, rather than focusing on all the reasons why it cannot be done. Others have done it, so can you. One hint, from boxing is a hook to the body used in a clinch. It won't score, or shouldn't, but master that, and people won't want to clinch with you anymore. Also, when you punch, try to make it so the opponent's hogu is flush against his body, rather than having an air pocket or space.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> now THAT is some good TKD



Yeah, I especially like it when he bounces around with his arms dangling by his sides.


----------



## Twin Fist

his arms are tired from throwing punches....


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> And like I said above, you can allow hands to the head and still maintain it as a primarily kicking aspect via the scoring system.  Also, you can limit the amount of hand techniques that can be thrown in succession without throwing a kick.



My suggestion is rather than trying to change WTF sparring into ITF sparring, why not just go join the ITF so you can compete at their tournaments? When I wanted to learn kicking, specifically kicking to the head, in sparring or whereever, I quit shotokan and moved to taekwondo. I didn't go bother my shotokan instructor and get him to incorporate taekwondo kicking.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> Think about adapting and overcoming, rather than focusing on all the reasons why it cannot be done. Others have done it, so can you. One hint, from boxing is a hook to the body used in a clinch. It won't score, or shouldn't, but master that, and people won't want to clinch with you anymore. Also, when you punch, try to make it so the opponent's hogu is flush against his body, rather than having an air pocket or space.



Hmm, thanks for the tips.  That something to consider for sure.


----------



## SPX

twin fist said:


> his arms are tired from throwing punches....



Ha.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> his arms are tired from throwing punches....



either that or he's been watch a lot of footage from WTF competitions and understands why and when you do that.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> My suggestion is rather than trying to change WTF sparring into ITF sparring, why not just go join the ITF so you can compete at their tournaments?



Oh, I'm just making conversation, for the most part.  

With that said, I probably WOULD be ITF if there were good ITF schools around me, but there just aren't.  I was involved with them for a bit (or the USTF, technically), but I had problems both with my instructor and some of the things going on in the organization.  I actually did e-mail a local ITF instructor who I might want to train with just last night, but his class is really way too far for me to get to since I don't have a car.  

My reasons for switching over are basically thus:

1.  Quality of instruction - I really like the guy at my new WTF dojang and he has produced some good competitors, including one guy who tried out for the national team last year.  

2.  Lots of Sparring - There's not much of a sparring emphasis in the local ITF/USTF classes.  I was with my instructor for 4 months and never once did ANYONE spar, regardless of belt color.  At my new WTF school there are two sparring days a week and, unlike at a lot of TKD schools, he throws you into it immediately instead of making you wait 3 months or 6 months or whatever.

3.  Distance from My Home - Easy to get to via public transportation.

4.  Great Kicks - I really do enjoy kicking and WTF guys often have beautiful looking kicks.  

5.  Already Taking Karate - I would be more upset about the lack of hands in WTF TKD if it was all I'm doing, but I get plenty of hand training in my wado-ryu class, so I'm really not that worried about it.  

6.  It's Different - WTF TKD is different from everything I've done in the past.  I think it's interesting.  As long as I look at it purely as a sport, then I'm okay with the ruleset.


----------



## SPX

Let me also add one more thing to the above list:

7.  Full Contact - Even though there aren't punches to the face and there's all kinds of protective gear, it appeals to me that I can kick someone in the head as hard as I can and KO them and instead of getting disqualified, I get awarded with instant victory.


----------



## RobinTKD

Firstly, ITF or WTF, it's all Taekwondo. Secondly, the ITF has it's own problems with sparring, yes they allow punches to the head, but then they also restrict contact, look back at the video you posted, there's a hook kick within the first minute and it's like a slap to the face. KO is not a valid form of victory in most ITF competitions and can result in instant disqualification. For me, this is how I believe ALL Taekwondo sparring should be...







Notice that there still isn't punching to the head, instead there are some takedowns and, more importantly to me, low kicks.

Don't get me wrong, I practice ITF Taekwondo, but not for sport.

Also the Judo analogy earlier, Glenn was right when he said about de-emphasizing groundwork, but also being able to grab the leg to throw from a primary attack is illegal, as is taking someone down with an armlock/strangle. Judo sport, is different to Judo the Art.


----------



## SPX

RobinTKD said:


> Firstly, ITF or WTF, it's all Taekwondo. Secondly, the ITF has it's own problems with sparring, yes they allow punches to the head, but then they also restrict contact, look back at the video you posted, there's a hook kick within the first minute and it's like a slap to the face.



I don't disagree.  That's the trade-off:  you get punches to the face, but lose full contact (although from what I hear many ITF comps, especially in the black belt divisions, are basically full contact).  

Then again, a lot of the arguments from WTF guys is that it's a sport.  Always bringing up the fact that such-and-such element is unrealistic and not good for self-defense loses sight of this.  In the same vein, you can say the same thing about ITF sparring.  It may not be full contact, but that's not what the sport is about.  Rather, it's about putting shots on target with speed and precision to score points.

Also, I have to point out that most head kicks that I see in WTF competition don't land in a way that produces a knockout.  Usually guys just walk through it and keep fighting.




RobinTKD said:


> For me, this is how I believe ALL Taekwondo sparring should be...



I really like that video!  That looks like a lot of fun and looks like something I'd like to do.  I still think it would be better if there were face punches, though.  I mean, what's the argument against them?


----------



## puunui

RobinTKD said:


> Firstly, ITF or WTF, it's all Taekwondo. Secondly, the ITF has it's own problems with sparring, yes they allow punches to the head, but then they also restrict contact, look back at the video you posted, there's a hook kick within the first minute and it's like a slap to the face. KO is not a valid form of victory in most ITF competitions and can result in instant disqualification. For me, this is how I believe ALL Taekwondo sparring should be...



A friend of mine who was a kuk sool dan holder moved to korea to get his masters degree. He entered a hapkido tournament back in the late 80s or early 90s and ended up winning all his matches with a low spin kick. The rules allowed it, but I think hapkido tournaments were new at the time and so everyone was fighting with taekwondo style techniques. he kept doing low spin kick to everyone's ankles and they dropped like flies. He ended up quitting kuk sool won in favor of brazilian jiujitsu and is now considered the father of BJJ in South Korea.


----------



## RobinTKD

SPX said:


> I don't disagree.  That's the trade-off:  you get punches to the face, but lose full contact (although from what I hear many ITF comps, especially in the black belt divisions, are basically full contact).



That is true to an extent, but it depends where you're fighting, and under which organisation. The good thing about the WTF is that it all comes under that one umbrella, for ITF in the UK we have the TAGB, UKTA, UKTF, GTUK etc, and most orgs won't let you fight in others competitions. Though there is the british open which is open to any member of the BTC/BTCB, that's only once a year.



SPX said:


> Then again, a lot of the arguments from WTF guys is that it's a sport.  Always bringing up the fact that such-and-such element is unrealistic and not good for self-defense loses sight of this.  In the same vein, you can say the same thing about ITF sparring.  It may not be full contact, but that's not what the sport is about.  Rather, it's about putting shots on target with speed and precision to score points.
> 
> Also, I have to point out that most head kicks that I see in WTF competition don't land in a way that produces a knockout.  Usually guys just walk through it and keep fighting.



Exactly, if you practice only Shihap Kyorugi, then maybe you aren't practising a full martial art, so she should be looked at in the same way as learning tennis or football. Though there are more learned people than I on that particular point.

In regards to the amount of KO's, I'm not sure either of us are qualified to have a well informed opinion. I have heard from people on this board who frequent the comps that they tend to be KO after KO after KO. That said, it's the same with the top end of any sport, that when you have 2 people fighting at their absolute peak, they are unlikely to make a mistake, and therefore unlikely to be KO'd.




SPX said:


> I really like that video!  That looks like a lot of fun and looks like something I'd like to do.  I still think it would be better if there were face punches, though.  I mean, what's the argument against them?



You and me both! Again, there are better people to speak about it, but I believe the emphasis on kicking and less punching was more to do with distancing it from Karate, who at the time of the Seoul Olympics was also trying to become an Olympic sport, and other martial arts like kickboxing, muay thai, even savate. All those arts had quite a following in the 80's when WTF TKD shot to fame.


----------



## RobinTKD

puunui said:


> A friend of mine who was a kuk sool dan holder moved to korea to get his masters degree. He entered a hapkido tournament back in the late 80s or early 90s and ended up winning all his matches with a low spin kick. The rules allowed it, but I think hapkido tournaments were new at the time and so everyone was fighting with taekwondo style techniques. he kept doing low spin kick to everyone's ankles and they dropped like flies. He ended up quitting kuk sool won in favor of brazilian jiujitsu and is now considered the father of BJJ in South Korea.



Glenn, do you have any more information on Hapkido sparring? Any history? Or any recommendations for books?


----------



## puunui

RobinTKD said:


> Glenn, do you have any more information on Hapkido sparring? Any history? Or any recommendations for books?



sorry but no. I will say that my friend's ankle was swollen for a long time after that tournament from the low spin kicks. I believe he won that two or three years in a row. I am not really interested in hapkido sparring, accept for a type of hapkido hand technique drill that i practice that has a feel of sparring. It would be too much for my plate to get involved in that. I might have some hapkido books with sections in it with sparring, but it is in the korean language and would be difficult for you to obtain. I suggest you try youtube and search around there for hapkido tournaments. that would be the best source, video footage.


----------



## SPX

RobinTKD said:


> . . . and most orgs won't let you fight in others competitions.



Won't LET you?  

This was another big problem I had with ITF-based organizations.  They're always up in your business.  There are all kinds of formalities and etiquette BS and it's just lame.

The way I see it is that I pay my instructors for a service, and I am a member of such-and-such organization out of necessity.  But ultimately, I pay them to teach me a certain skillset.  What I do outside of their class is none of their business--the instructor's or the organization's.  If I want to train in another martial art, that's none of their concern.  If I want to compete in X, Y or Z organization, that also is none of their concern.  Just give me what I pay you for and let that be that.

And just to clarify, that doesn't mean you don't need to show respect or that you can't develop a bond or friendship with your instructor. I have my own personal ethics, in this regard.  I would not seek out instruction from a different teacher in the same art without first consulting my primary instructor, for instance.




RobinTKD said:


> In regards to the amount of KO's, I'm not sure either of us are qualified to have a well informed opinion. I have heard from people on this board who frequent the comps that they tend to be KO after KO after KO.



I'm really curious to attend a few WTF comps and see if that is true.


----------



## Twin Fist

RobinTKD said:


> .




good stuff, needs punches


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> The way I see it is that I pay my instructors for a service, and I am a member of such-and-such organization out of necessity.  But ultimately, I pay them to teach me a certain skillset.  What I do outside of their class is none of their business--the instructor's or the organization's.  If I want to train in another martial art, that's none of their concern.  If I want to compete in X, Y or Z organization, that also is none of their concern.  Just give me what I pay you for and let that be that.




I don't have the same type of relationship with my teachers that you do.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

RobinTKD said:


> Firstly, ITF or WTF, it's all Taekwondo. Secondly, the ITF has it's own problems with sparring, yes they allow punches to the head, but then they also restrict contact, look back at the video you posted, there's a hook kick within the first minute and it's like a slap to the face. KO is not a valid form of victory in most ITF competitions and can result in instant disqualification. For me, this is how I believe ALL Taekwondo sparring should be...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice that there still isn't punching to the head, instead there are some takedowns and, more importantly to me, low kicks.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I practice ITF Taekwondo, but not for sport.
> 
> Also the Judo analogy earlier, Glenn was right when he said about de-emphasizing groundwork, but also being able to grab the leg to throw from a primary attack is illegal, as is taking someone down with an armlock/strangle. Judo sport, is different to Judo the Art.


Nice vid, thanks for that. The low kicks add another dimension to the sparring, I like it. Im going to ask my instructor if we can have a go at that next class.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Now this is fun -


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> I don't have the same type of relationship with my teachers that you do.



It's like I point out in the last paragraph of my post, it's all good if you bond with your instructor and become friends, but that's not a requirement.  And at the end of the day, if you're paying for martial arts lessons you are ultimately a customer.  He's a seller, you're a buyer.  

I've heard of martial arts instructors getting offended because a student goes and learns another martial art from someone else.  Why?  That's ridiculous.  It's a totally different thing even though they both fall under the category of martial arts.  I mean, should a basketball coach get pissed because you also play soccer?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> I wore one for the first time the other day and it was a lot harder than I expected.  I really think it would be difficult to soften a person up with lots of repeated blows in the same way that a Koyokushin fighter does because the hogu would absorb a lot of the impact.
> 
> That is, of course, not to say that you couldn't hurt someone with a punch, but I think it would have to be a strong power blow.


Puuini is right. A good punch, or kick for that matter, and you will still drop someone despite the fact they are wearing a hogu. We had a big samoan boxer come and train with us, his kicks were very ordinary but geez he could punch. People were dropping like flies, and they were wearing hogus. My original instructor always starts each sparring bout with a huge uppercut into the other guys ribs, its the last thing they suspect and they usually go flying. Only works once though


----------



## RobinTKD

SPX said:


> Won't LET you?
> 
> This was another big problem I had with ITF-based organizations.  They're always up in your business.  There are all kinds of formalities and etiquette BS and it's just lame.
> 
> The way I see it is that I pay my instructors for a service, and I am a member of such-and-such organization out of necessity.  But ultimately, I pay them to teach me a certain skillset.  What I do outside of their class is none of their business--the instructor's or the organization's.  If I want to train in another martial art, that's none of their concern.  If I want to compete in X, Y or Z organization, that also is none of their concern.  Just give me what I pay you for and let that be that.
> 
> And just to clarify, that doesn't mean you don't need to show respect or that you can't develop a bond or friendship with your instructor. I have my own personal ethics, in this regard.  I would not seek out instruction from a different teacher in the same art without first consulting my primary instructor, for instance.



I should rephrase my original quote, whatever org you belong to won't let you fight in *an*other orgs competition. I study ITF and I also cross train in Judo, and until recently Goju-Ryu. What I mean is that if you belong to the UKTA, they won't let you enter a TAGB contest. It limits who you can fight, and as a result, limits your progression. I've heard stories from people in the UKTA who left because they were going to competitions and fighting the same people year after year. Most have ended up in the WTF, or started their own independent school. I'm not sure what the situation is out in the US though, whether the whole ITF comes under the USTF or like us you have a million and 1 orgs all fighting for supremacy.


----------



## SPX

^^^ No need to rephrase.  I understand what you meant.

And what I mean is that I think it's ridiculous that one organization will not let you compete in another org's tournaments.  Like you say, it limits your progression.

In the US, I imagine it's very similar to the UK.  I know there is a presence for the ITF proper.  But there are plenty of breakaway orgs.  The USTF is only found in Utah, merely one of the 50 states.  I can only imagine what's going on elsewhere.


----------



## andyjeffries

SPX said:


> In the US, I imagine it's very similar to the UK.  I know there is a presence for the ITF proper.  But there are plenty of breakaway orgs.



Which is the "ITF proper"?  ITF-V, ITF-C or ITF-NK?


----------



## andyjeffries

RobinTKD said:


> That is true to an extent, but it depends where you're fighting, and under which organisation. The good thing about the WTF is that it all comes under that one umbrella, for ITF in the UK we have the TAGB, UKTA, UKTF, GTUK etc, and most orgs won't let you fight in others competitions. Though there is the british open which is open to any member of the BTC/BTCB, that's only once a year.



There is only one org with the WTF mandate, but there are lots of "WTF-style" groups (I'm a member of the UKTDC) although they have to be referred to as Kukkiwon-style Taekwondo as I believe the WTF MNA in the UK complains about the use of "WTF" without a mandate.


----------



## Earl Weiss

RobinTKD said:


> . I'm not sure what the situation is out in the US though, whether the whole ITF comes under the USTF or like us you have a million and 1 orgs all fighting for supremacy.



In 2002 after the infamous NK coup at the Memorial service the USTF withdrew as a member org of the ITF. 

In 2010, the ITFV told USTF individual  members they were not welcome if they attempted to be part of that group as well as  ITFV. 

They passed a By Law (which in my opoinion violates their own constitution) saying you could not be a member of any national organization which was not an official ITFV National organization.


----------



## andyjeffries

Earl Weiss said:


> In 2002 after the infamous NK coup at the Memorial service the USTF withdrew as a member org of the ITF.
> 
> In 2010, the ITFV told USTF individual  members they were not welcome if they attempted to be part of that group as well as  ITFV.
> 
> They passed a By Law (which in my opoinion violates their own constitution) saying you could not be a member of any national organization which was not an official ITFV National organization.



Do the other ITFs have a similar by-law or are they more open to multi-organisation membership?


----------



## Earl Weiss

SPX said:


> Just to be clear. Their are 2 orgs using these initials and after a suit the non ITF affiliated one changed the last word to foundation.
> 
> The USTF which was with the ITF headed by Sr. GM Sereff one of 7 General Choi promoted to GM was affiliated with the ITF thru most of 2002 until after the NK split. It is found throughout the USA and headquartered in Colorado.


----------



## Earl Weiss

andyjeffries said:


> Which is the "ITF proper"? ITF-V, ITF-C or ITF-NK?



How about ITF TAO?


----------



## Earl Weiss

Do the other ITFs have a similar by-law or are they more open to multi-organisation membership? <<<

I have no idea and ITFV supposedly passed this in 2009.


----------



## Cyriacus

andyjeffries said:


> Which is the "ITF proper"?  ITF-V, ITF-C or ITF-NK?


NK tends to be better at Striking, but C tends to have better SD.
V I would not recommend. Theyre a great Sport, but can be lacking in other areas.

PLEASE note that there are obviously exceptions.



Earl Weiss said:


> Do the other ITFs have a similar by-law or are they more open to multi-organisation membership? <<<
> 
> I have no idea and ITFV supposedly passed this in 2009.



I started Boxing under ITFC - I asked Permission first, and They approved with encouragements.
I have heard of other Branches not liking the idea one bit though.


----------



## miguksaram

RobinTKD said:


> Firstly, ITF or WTF, it's all Taekwondo. Secondly, the ITF has it's own problems with sparring, yes they allow punches to the head, but then they also restrict contact, look back at the video you posted, there's a hook kick within the first minute and it's like a slap to the face. KO is not a valid form of victory in most ITF competitions and can result in instant disqualification. For me, this is how I believe ALL Taekwondo sparring should be...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice that there still isn't punching to the head, instead there are some takedowns and, more importantly to me, low kicks.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I practice ITF Taekwondo, but not for sport.
> 
> Also the Judo analogy earlier, Glenn was right when he said about de-emphasizing groundwork, but also being able to grab the leg to throw from a primary attack is illegal, as is taking someone down with an armlock/strangle. Judo sport, is different to Judo the Art.


Some very nice matches.  This looks very similar to Taekkyon matches.


----------



## miguksaram

ralphmcpherson said:


> Now this is fun -


Looks like MMA had a bastard child with TKD.  I like it.


----------



## ETinCYQX

I really badly want to try that HapKiDo sparring ruleset. Looks like a ton of fun.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> It's like I point out in the last paragraph of my post, it's all good if you bond with your instructor and become friends, but that's not a requirement.  And at the end of the day, if you're paying for martial arts lessons you are ultimately a customer.  He's a seller, you're a buyer.




I don't consider my teachers my "friends", either, except one, but we are more like brothers than friends. Or at least that is how he describes our relationship. I also do not see my teachers as a seller, anymore than I see my father as a seller. I also do not see myself as a customer either. 

Having said that, all of my martial arts instructors who I take more than the style they teach, and most are fine with it. Only one, a long time ago, was not. But I think he may have changed his feelings on that because I understand he later studied more than one style simultaneously himself.


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> The USTF which was with the ITF headed by Sr. GM Sereff one of 7 General Choi promoted to GM was affiliated with the ITF thru most of 2002 until after the NK split.



Who are the seven that General Choi promoted to grandmaster? And is grandmaster 9th Dan?


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> Also, I have to point out that most head kicks that I see in WTF competition don't land in a way that produces a knockout.  Usually guys just walk through it and keep fighting.



I have a student who started learning from me when he was twenty. When he was about 27 or so, he had an identity crisis of sorts, quit class, got divorced from his childhood sweetheart wife, started drinking in bars and in the process got into over 100 fights all over the place. He knocked out almost all of them with a spin hook kick in the head. He is short, 5'4" or so, but is flexible so it is relatively easy for him to simply spin in a small space and land the hook kick. Now he is 40, back with his wife, back to training, runs his own club, doesn't get into fights anymore, and I have hopes that he will become a national and hopefully international referee once USAT gets rolling again. In WTF international level competition, it is difficult to land a knockout shot because both are trained, but in a self defense situation, you often can, especially since no one is expecting it.


----------



## SPX

Earl Weiss said:


> The USTF which was with the ITF headed by Sr. GM Sereff one of 7 General Choi promoted to GM was affiliated with the ITF thru most of 2002 until after the NK split. It is found throughout the USA and headquartered in Colorado.



Okay, thanks for the heads up.  That would be the group my old school was a member of.  For some reason I thought the "US" stood for Utah State and not United States.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> I don't consider my teachers my "friends", either, except one, but we are more like brothers than friends. Or at least that is how he describes our relationship. I also do not see my teachers as a seller, anymore than I see my father as a seller. I also do not see myself as a customer either.



I guess I just don't get into the whole idea of a guy deserving reverence and hero worship because he can throw some punches and kicks, and that's basically the direction a lot of martial arts orgs steer you into.  I definitely don't in any way equate my martial arts instructors to with father.

Process goes:  I want martial arts skills-->I look in the phone book to find a school-->I visit schools to find one that suits my needs-->I find an instructor who seems cool and who runs his class in an agreeable fashion-->I give him money in exchange for lessons to obtain the aforementioned skills.

If we develop some sort of a relationship with each other, then I'm all for it.  But until things get personal like that I just look at it as a cash-for-commodities kind of exchange.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> I guess I just don't get into the whole idea of a guy deserving reverence and hero worship because he can throw some punches and kicks, and that's basically the direction a lot of martial arts orgs steer you into.  I definitely don't in any way equate my martial arts instructors to with father.



I also don't think that I revere or hero worship my teacher or my father either. But maybe you will at least treat your teachers as you do your father. May I ask, do you get along with your parents?


----------



## dancingalone

SPX said:


> I guess I just don't get into the whole idea of a guy deserving reverence and hero worship because he can throw some punches and kicks, and that's basically the direction a lot of martial arts orgs steer you into.  I definitely don't in any way equate my martial arts instructors to with father.



What is it like in your Wado-ryu karate class?  I have found that traditional Japanese martial arts frequently are conducted with the type of respectful distance between teacher and student you object to.  It's not necessarily meant to keep the teacher in an advantageous position for possibly sinister reasons.  It can make sense in the context of helping everyone learn where everyone has an initial starting role in relation to each other and this changes over time as students gain experience, skill, and perspective.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> I also don't think that I revere or hero worship my teacher or my father either. But maybe you will at least treat your teachers as you do your father. May I ask, do you get along with your parents?



I treat people with the level of respect that I feel they give to others.  As I related the other day in another thread, one of the main reasons I am no longer with the ITF is that I had serious problems with my instructor.  He would give an outward show of respect, but it was obvious he was completely consumed by his own ego--he loved lecture people, loved the sound of his own voice, would treat adults like children, and obviously cared nothing for the thoughts or opinions of others.  He never listened to anything anyone would say and loved to interrupt people so that he could continue on with whatever it is that he wanted to talk about.  So I didn't respect him and ultimately walked away to find greener pastures. 

If an instructor, on the other hand, shows himself to be worthy of respect because he has the proper traits as a human being then I will certainly respect him.

As for my parents, I'm cool with them today, but there was some static growing up.


----------



## SPX

dancingalone said:


> What is it like in your Wado-ryu karate class?  I have found that traditional Japanese martial arts frequently are conducted with the type of respectful distance between teacher and student you object to.  It's not necessarily meant to keep the teacher in an advantageous position for possibly sinister reasons.  It can make sense in the context of helping everyone learn where everyone has an initial starting role in relation to each other and this changes over time as students gain experience, skill, and perspective.



The wado class is definitely very formal.  In fact, the old Japanese guy who founded the school in 1970, Sensei Osaka, has never spoken a word to me.  You use the word "distance" and that really does describe him.  From everything that I've seen so far, on the days that he leads class, he shows up after the warm ups have begun, stretches out on his own, then jumps in to run the class through whatever activities are planned for the day, and immediately bounces out the door once class is over.  He never stays around to chit chat with any of the students and he has never instructed me personally in any way.

The black belt who has been my primary instructor, a guy named Mark, usually either runs the class on Tuesdays and Thursdays in conjunction with Sensei Osaka, or runs the class by himself.  He's pretty cool.  There is still a sort of icy distance between us, but I think part of that has to do with just the kind of guy he is.  He's kind of a weird cat who seems to never get overly emotional about anything.  I've barely seen him crack a smile, but he doesn't get frustrated or angry, either.  All in all, he kind of strikes me as being emotionally flatlined--stoic even--but I get a benevolent vibe from him.

The rest of the students in the class--most of which are black belts--are cool guys.

But the atmosphere is definitely more formal.  People talk in hushed tones.  There's not a lot of joking around going on in the dojo.  The setting itself is fairly austere and gives off a traditional energy.


----------



## dancingalone

SPX said:


> The wado class is definitely very formal. In fact, the old Japanese guy who founded the school in 1970, Sensei Osaka, has never spoken a word to me. You use the word "distance" and that really does describe him.
> 
> ....
> But the atmosphere is definitely more formal.  People talk in hushed tones.  There's not a lot of joking around going on in the dojo.  The setting itself is fairly austere and gives off a traditional energy.



I run my Goju-ryu dojo in a similar fashion.  It is how I was taught myself.  I  never got to ask my sensei any questions in class coming up the ranks because he was so old school - of course that might be why he never really had that many students last too long.  Once you made it to BB, he started opening up a bit more to you.  I'm not as extreme as he was though.  It's tough to be personally detached all the time unless your personality is just that way to begin with.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

dancingalone said:


> I run my Goju-ryu dojo in a similar fashion.  It is how I was taught myself.  I  never got to ask my sensei any questions in class coming up the ranks because he was so old school - of course that might be why he never really had that many students last too long.  Once you made it to BB, he started opening up a bit more to you.  I'm not as extreme as he was though.  It's tough to be personally detached all the time unless your personality is just that way to begin with.



Ditto.  This was how I came up through the ranks in TKD. I also attempt to carry on that tradition (because of its effectiveness) to a degree.


----------



## andyjeffries

Earl Weiss said:


> How about ITF TAO?



Haven't heard of that one, what does it stand for?


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> It's tough to be personally detached all the time unless your personality is just that way to begin with.



I would say it is tough to be personally detached all the time and also is tough to understand the reasons why, if you were not brought up in a culture that emphasizes that and other things that are tough to understand, from your cultural perspective.


----------



## dancingalone

andyjeffries said:


> Haven't heard of that one, what does it stand for?



My guess:  ITF, Take Any One.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> Process goes:  I want martial arts skills-->I look in the phone book to find a school-->I visit schools to find one that suits my needs-->I find an instructor who seems cool and who runs his class in an agreeable fashion-->I give him money in exchange for lessons to obtain the aforementioned skills.



In my opinion, that type of process and thinking will get you part of the way into level one, but not to level two or three.


----------



## andyjeffries

Cyriacus said:


> NK tends to be better at Striking, but C tends to have better SD.
> V I would not recommend. Theyre a great Sport, but can be lacking in other areas.
> 
> PLEASE note that there are obviously exceptions.



That's interesting so thank you, but it doesn't answer the question which is the "ITF proper" (quote from Earl Weiss).

Is there a general consensus which one is the official/proper ITF?  Does anyone know membership numbers to be able to say X is far bigger than Y and Z put together?

I understand there are going to be members in each that believe theirs is the official, but I'm trying to find out if there's "one more official/popular/whatever than the others".


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> I would say it is tough to be personally detached all the time and also is tough to understand the reasons why, if you were not brought up in a culture that emphasizes that and other things that are tough to understand, from your cultural perspective.



Agreed.  I've mentioned this one or twice here.  I'm actually of Asian heritage, born in the old country, left when I was 2.  I didn't have the buddy, buddy relationship with my father that so many here do.  I remember being embarrassed that he wore suits to my football games.  I hated how he never considered anything I did in sports to be as important as my school work. 

Not sure in retrospect if my upbringing was a bad thing, but I know growing up I wished my father was more like my friends' dads.  It's funny that my sensei, the man that has the most influence on me martially, is in a lot of ways exactly like my father.


----------



## SPX

dancingalone said:


> I run my Goju-ryu dojo in a similar fashion.  It is how I was taught myself.  I  never got to ask my sensei any questions in class coming up the ranks because he was so old school - of course that might be why he never really had that many students last too long.  Once you made it to BB, he started opening up a bit more to you.  I'm not as extreme as he was though.  It's tough to be personally detached all the time unless your personality is just that way to begin with.



That's interesting, especially the point about students not lasting too long, because as I've mentioned before there aren't very many students at the wado school who are under brown belt.  It's almost browns and blacks across the board, with a couple of purples . . . and then WAY down the ladder is myself, the lone white belt.

As for not being able to ask your sensei questions, I've never been in an environment that's like that.  As a kid, I started in an ATA school and the instructors were very personable and friendly.  In my teens, I studied wushu with a Chinese couple who came over from the mainland and they also were quite personal and we had plenty of conversations together and they worked with me directly all the time.

In my early 20s, I did judo and the class was extremely informal.  We didn't even call the instructor sensei.  He was just Greg.  You could talk, laugh, joke, whatever, as long as you approached the actual training seriously.

My ITF instructor was quite formal, with all the Mr. so-and-so, and Yes, sir and No, sir, and having to listen to his lectures.  But he did work with directly quite a bit.

At my current WTF school, the instructor is pretty laid back.  I do refer to him as "Master Pace," but for the most part I can just talk to him like a regular person, and we've had plenty of casual conversations about TKD and MMA and plenty of other things.

Even at the wado school, like I said, Sensei Osaka basically acts like I don't exist, but the guy that I regard as MY instructor is just "Mark" to me.  I don't even know his last name, don't refer to him as Sensei, don't refer to him as Mr. anything, and don't say "Yes, sir" or "No, sir."  Respect is shown by maintaining a respectful demeanor in the way that I listen to what he says, follow directions, and ask questions.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> In my opinion, that type of process and thinking will get you part of the way into level one, but not to level two or three.



What levels are you referring to?


----------



## Earl Weiss

GM is 9th Dan in the ITF

Following are the only 7 promoted by General Choi

I think I have the order correct vis a vis order of promotion.  Note GMs Sereff and Hwang were promoted on tha same date.  GMS Van Bin and Dang were also later promoted on the same date. 

Rhee Khee Ha
Charles Sereff 
Hwang Kwang Sung
Ngyen Van Bin
Dang Huy Duc
Woojin  Jung
Jong Soo Park


----------



## Earl Weiss

andyjeffries said:


> Haven't heard of that one, what does it stand for?




Traditional Authentic Original.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Cyriacus said:


> NK tends to be better at Striking, but C tends to have better SD.
> V I would not recommend. Theyre a great Sport, but can be lacking in other areas.
> 
> PLEASE note that there are obviously exceptions.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Quite frankly I have no clue how such generalizations could be made. Whne the split(s) occurred in 2002 people from around the world chose one group or another, or none. It had nothing to do with their curriculum.
> Striking, self defense, or sport emphasis probaly has more to do with the instructor than the organization.


----------



## Earl Weiss

andyjeffries said:


> That's interesting so thank you, but it doesn't answer the question which is the "ITF proper" (quote from Earl Weiss).
> 
> Is there a general consensus which one is the official/proper ITF? Does anyone know membership numbers to be able to say X is far bigger than Y and Z put together?
> 
> I understand there are going to be members in each that believe theirs is the official, but I'm trying to find out if there's "one more official/popular/whatever than the others".



Did I use the term "ITF Proper". If so I don't recall the context.  As you say, any or all could try to claim it. And some may say none are. 
I would say ITF V and ITF NK are the biggest.   It's hard to pin done true numbers. I recall when some groups split from the USTF some years ago they would claim something like 5000 members each in the split off group.  I'm thinking "Holy Cow" that means the USTF had 25000 active members  before these splits which I know wasn't true.


----------



## andyjeffries

Earl Weiss said:


> Did I use the term "ITF Proper". If so I don't recall the context.  As you say, any or all could try to claim it. And some may say none are.
> I would say ITF V and ITF NK are the biggest.   It's hard to pin done true numbers. I recall when some groups split from the USTF some years ago they would claim something like 5000 members each in the split off group.  I'm thinking "Holy Cow" that means the USTF had 25000 active members  before these splits which I know wasn't true.



My apologies Earl, it wasn't you but SPX that used the term "ITF proper".

It's a shame that people/organisations can't stand up and be completely honest in saying "we have 12,345 members" (or whatever).  If someone else has more, then you should double your efforts to increase your numbers.  If you have less and are happy with that because you know you have the strongest members, then that's fine too.  But just let the numbers out there.

Thanks for your information anyway.


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> I'm thinking "Holy Cow" that means the USTF had 25000 active members  before these splits which I know wasn't true.



What was the highest number of USTF members registered, and in what year? What would be the ball park membership numbers now?


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> Agreed.  I've mentioned this one or twice here.  I'm actually of Asian heritage, born in the old country, left when I was 2.  I didn't have the buddy, buddy relationship with my father that so many here do.  I remember being embarrassed that he wore suits to my football games.  I hated how he never considered anything I did in sports to be as important as my school work. Not sure in retrospect if my upbringing was a bad thing, but I know growing up I wished my father was more like my friends' dads.  It's funny that my sensei, the man that has the most influence on me martially, is in a lot of ways exactly like my father.



It certainly is serving you well in your martial arts pursuits, your upbringing. Imagine if you didn't have that, how much harder it would be. 

Your asian heritage also gives you a perspective on what asian instructors who come to the US to teach have face in terms of racism and discrimination, something that I think a lot of people don't really take into consideration. I don't know if you know who Master Han Won Lee is, but I attended his wedding in Michigan. His instructor got up to the podium during the reception and gave a speech about how he had spent more than half his life in the US, how he was a US citizen, that his kids were born here, and when he went to visit Korea how changed it is to the point where he feels more comfortable in the US than in Korea. Towards the end he proudly exclaimed that "I am an American" and I was looking at his Korean face, speaking with a Korean accent, wondering how many in the room disagreed with him. 

That, I think, is a sad state of affairs.


----------



## Cyriacus

Earl Weiss said:


> Cyriacus said:
> 
> 
> 
> NK tends to be better at Striking, but C tends to have better SD.
> V I would not recommend. Theyre a great Sport, but can be lacking in other areas.
> 
> PLEASE note that there are obviously exceptions.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Quite frankly I have no clue how such generalizations could be made. Whne the split(s) occurred in 2002 people from around the world chose one group or another, or none. It had nothing to do with their curriculum.
> Striking, self defense, or sport emphasis probaly has more to do with the instructor than the organization.
> 
> 
> 
> I did add a note at the end.
> 
> Explain then how one can look at each of them seperately, and notice that each one tends to do one thing more than another? It may be pure coincidence for all I know. Im just speaking of what I have personally seen.
Click to expand...


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> . . . and I was looking at his Korean face, speaking with a Korean accent, wondering how many in the room disagreed with him.



Some may have found it a somewhat disconcerting site--for the reasons you mentioned--but this is 2012.  Sure, there are bigots in America--as there are all over the world--but for the most part I don't think people sit around with prejudice in their heart, actively looking down on people of other races from other places.  In fact, many people probably found it a refreshing act of patriotism for an immigrant to embrace the US like that.  I know that I would have.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> Some may have found a somewhat disconcerting site--for the reasons you mentioned--but this is 2012.  Sure, there are bigots in America--as there are all over the world--but for the most part I don't think people sit around with prejudice in their heart, actively looking down on people over races from other places.  In fact, many people probably found it a refreshing act of patriotism for an immigrant to embrace the US like that.  I know that I would have.



You would think that would be true. I can tell you at a tournament I think in texas, the seniors came out of a korean restaurant, and some guy and his friends were outside saying racist things, slanting his eyes. I thought that there would be a mob scene, but the korean born seniors tried as best they could to ignore that stuff, got in their cars and drove away, all the while being heckled by that group. There are other incidents that I have witnessed first hand, but you get the picture.


----------



## msmitht

Twin Fist said:


> i know plenty of fat guys that can get in there and throw down Ron. A LOT of them in fact. a person's physical condition has exactly ZERO to do with thier ability to teach or PERFORM.
> 
> 
> my gut doesnt stop me from being able to teach someone how to do a technique. sure, i cant do everythign as well as i used to, but thats as much age as condition.


do you realy believe that a persons physical condition has zero to do with their ability to perform? If so you should stop teaching immediately! By your reckoning an overweight person with asthma can run a marathon next to a fit us marine and will keep pace, right?


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> You would think that would be true. I can tell you at a tournament I think in texas, the seniors came out of a korean restaurant, and some guy and his friends were outside saying racist things, slanting his eyes. I thought that there would be a mob scene, but the korean born seniors tried as best they could to ignore that stuff, got in their cars and drove away, all the while being heckled by that group. There are other incidents that I have witnessed first hand, but you get the picture.



Well that's certainly pretty bad.  And I'm not saying that things like that never happen.  But I don't think it's the norm, at all.

I also think that, at least in some cases, joking around shouldn't be taken seriously.  I am a moderator on another forum and we have a guy who's half-Chinese and we joke around with him about it, asking him how he can see with his eyes closed.  I get mine in return, because they all crack on me about being short.  But I know that it's just in good fun.  So I think that context is important.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Cyriacus said:


> Earl Weiss said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did add a note at the end.
> 
> Explain then how one can look at each of them seperately, and notice that each one tends to do one thing more than another? It may be pure coincidence for all I know. Im just speaking of what I have personally seen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no explanation and have no idea as to the nature and extent of your  observations. I am well acquainted with many groups and indviduals, who have joined and in some cases left and joined other groups and cannot make any such generalizations.
Click to expand...


----------



## miguksaram

puunui said:


> Towards the end he proudly exclaimed that "I am an American" and I was looking at his Korean face, speaking with a Korean accent, wondering how many in the room disagreed with him.
> 
> That, I think, is a sad state of affairs.


This hit home with me because as you know my wife is Korean born and raised.  She moved here when she was 23 and still has her accent.  She is an American citizen and one of her proudest moments in her life was passing her citizens exam and taking that oath to be an American citizen.  I would say people who immigrated here, have jumped through all the bureaucratic red tap, studied and pass an exam that most "natural born" citizens would fail, just to become a citizen,  appreciate the true meaning and opportunity that America stands for more than most of us who were born here.


----------



## Twin Fist

asthma is a medical condition, and there is a HUGE (no pun intended) difference between "overweight" and "obese"

I know plenty of overweight guys that can hang all day in the dojo and put thier feet all over your head, at will. Their weight doesnt stop them. Mine doesnt stop ME. 

now, they are the exceptions to be sure, and yes, it is always better to be in shape, but:

1) martial arts isnt a marathon. In REALITY, a fight should be over in 3-5 moves, not seconds, not minutes, not hours. MOVES. To use your example, martial arts is a sprint, not a marathon
2) you ignored the second half of what I said: having a beer gut in no way effects a person's ability to TEACH.

that was the original claim i was refuting. A complaint about teachers who were not in perfect shape. Screw that ****. First of all, i dont know anyone thats in perfect shape, and I know plenty of great teachers. In fact i know one that only became a great teacher AFTER they lost the ability to perform at competition level. Denied the ability to perform, they concentrated on teaching and found out they were really good at it.

no, an overweight guy with asthma cant run a marathon, no one said he could, but he can still do martial arts. There may be some things he wont be able to do at full capacity, but they can still have good technique and be good blackbelts. Maybe not in TKD, but there is an art for everyone.

Cant kick high? go into a kenpo art.

dont have a lot of  upper body strength? go into an art that doesnt care about punching, like wtf tkd.

martial arts are not the property of skinny people. In fact, if you take the fact that impact force is = mass X speed, some thin guy will have less mass. That means less power. Thats why there are so many weight classes in boxing, thin, small guys just cant hit as hard as big guys. 

I am more leery of fighting fat dudes like me than skinny guys any day of the week for that exact reason. Fat guy can pull a george forman on ya....lol





msmitht said:


> do you realy believe that a persons physical condition has zero to do with their ability to perform? If so you should stop teaching immediately! By your reckoning an overweight person with asthma can run a marathon next to a fit us marine and will keep pace, right?


----------



## Twin Fist

this is exactly true

Jhoon Rhee, the original korean TKD bb in america makes no bones that he considers himself an american from korea

he still gets misty eyed talkign about it.



miguksaram said:


> This hit home with me because as you know my wife is Korean born and raised.  She moved here when she was 23 and still has her accent.  She is an American citizen and one of her proudest moments in her life was passing her citizens exam and taking that oath to be an American citizen.  I would say people who immigrated here, have jumped through all the bureaucratic red tap, studied and pass an exam that most "natural born" citizens would fail, just to become a citizen,  appreciate the true meaning and opportunity that America stands for more than most of us who were born here.


----------



## Tez3

SPX said:


> The wado class is definitely very formal. In fact, the old Japanese guy who founded the school in 1970, Sensei Osaka, has never spoken a word to me. You use the word "distance" and that really does describe him. From everything that I've seen so far, on the days that he leads class, he shows up after the warm ups have begun, stretches out on his own, then jumps in to run the class through whatever activities are planned for the day, and immediately bounces out the door once class is over. He never stays around to chit chat with any of the students and he has never instructed me personally in any way.
> 
> The black belt who has been my primary instructor, a guy named Mark, usually either runs the class on Tuesdays and Thursdays in conjunction with Sensei Osaka, or runs the class by himself. He's pretty cool. There is still a sort of icy distance between us, but I think part of that has to do with just the kind of guy he is. He's kind of a weird cat who seems to never get overly emotional about anything. I've barely seen him crack a smile, but he doesn't get frustrated or angry, either.* All in all, he kind of strikes me as being emotionally flatlined--stoic even--but I get a benevolent vibe from him.
> 
> *The rest of the students in the class--most of which are black belts--are cool guys.
> 
> But the atmosphere is definitely more formal. People talk in hushed tones. There's not a lot of joking around going on in the dojo. The setting itself is fairly austere and gives off a traditional energy.




That sounds like the description of a man who is professional about his teaching rather than someone who is 'emotionally flatlined', I expect he reserves his emotions for the appropriate time and place. Being British though that thing is more the norm with most of us, we tend not to do the emotional stuff in public. Even our kids don't, they get embarrassed with the 'high five' and 'good job' stuff shouted around. A quiet well done is what they want. We don't have the American exhuberance I'm afraid so your instructor sounds quite normal, doing a professional job, to us.


----------



## dancingalone

SPX said:


> That's interesting, especially the point about students not lasting too long, because as I've mentioned before there aren't very many students at the wado school who are under brown belt.  It's almost browns and blacks across the board, with a couple of purples . . . and then WAY down the ladder is myself, the lone white belt.



Healthy schools should have a broad range of practitioner skill levels.  If the school has been established for a while yet there are not any senior students around to showcase what the teacher has been able to impart, it might be fair to wonder why.  At the same time, a school that only has senior students and no intermediate colored belts has its own questions to ask about its vigor.



SPX said:


> As for not being able to ask your sensei questions, I've never been in an environment that's like that.  As a kid, I started in an ATA school and the instructors were very personable and friendly.  In my teens, I studied wushu with a Chinese couple who came over from the mainland and they also were quite personal and we had plenty of conversations together and they worked with me directly all the time.
> .....



If the style of instruction suits you, that's all that is important.  Please keep us updated with your progress in both styles - the combination of Wado with KKW TKD is an interesting one.  I'll be following with interest as you express yourself well and I can easily visualize what you describe.


----------



## SPX

Tez3 said:


> That sounds like the description of a man who is professional about his teaching rather than someone who is 'emotionally flatlined', I expect he reserves his emotions for the appropriate time and place. Being British though that thing is more the norm with most of us, we tend not to do the emotional stuff in public. Even our kids don't, they get embarrassed with the 'high five' and 'good job' stuff shouted around. A quiet well done is what they want. We don't have the American exhuberance I'm afraid so your instructor sounds quite normal, doing a professional job, to us.



I dunno.  He makes a lot of comments about Zen and speaks admiringly of how Sensei Osaka strikes him as a real-life Zen master.  I think that acquiring that sort of quiet harmony in his own life is something that's important to him. 

Several of us sat around after class last night and just chatted about random stuff and he actually smiled and laughed a little.  I think he's a cool guy, and a total beast in terms of fighting.  In sparring, he is ferocious.


----------



## SPX

dancingalone said:


> Healthy schools should have a broad range of practitioner skill levels.  If the school has been established for a while yet there are not any senior students around to showcase what the teacher has been able to impart, it might be fair to wonder why.  At the same time, a school that only has senior students and no intermediate colored belts has its own questions to ask about its vigor.



I know the school was established in 1970 by Sensei Toshio Osaka, who is one of the top wado practitioners in the world.  

But the way it was put to me by the other students is that Sensei Osaka isn't a flashy, showy guy who cares about fame.  He doesn't advertise the school.  He doesn't go out of his way to attract new students.  

He pretty much stays out of the spotlight, while some of his high-ranking friends jetset around the world doing seminars and the like.  

Some of the students, like Mark, have literally been with the school for almost 4 decades.  Mark says he began training consistently when he was 8 year old, never stopped, and he is now in his mid-40s.  Sensei refers to him as "his son" and has taken him to Japan several times and has traveled all around the world with him when he was younger to compete in tournaments and whatnot.

There are a few other students who also have been there for a decade or longer.  

From what I've been told, the lowest ranking student beyond myself has been there about a year.  A lot of people stop in to watch.  Very occasionally people will actually sign up, and will usually do a few months of training and then disappear.  

I think that, beyond there just not being much of an advertising push, it's not the kind of school that will appeal to everyone.  The training is traditional.  Lots of working on basics via line drills, which I think some people might eventually find dull and repetitive.  And a lot of the other drills and sparring can become fairly hard contact, and everything is bare knuckle without any protective gear.  Just in my first few lessons I was punched and kicked--not hard--but harder than I had been in a long time and I think that this would be difficult for a lot of people to deal with.  I've definitely gotten a few bruises over the past month.  In fact, I'm limping today because of a kicking drill we were doing last night.  Foot's all bruised to hell.  I actually was wondering last night if maybe it was broken.

Long story short, it's just not really a dojo for the "fitness" crowd (though if someone showed up with that goal their particular training would be tailored a bit more toward that end).

Here's the website, BTW:

http://wado-institute.com





dancingalone said:


> If the style of instruction suits you, that's all that is important.  Please keep us updated with your progress in both styles - the combination of Wado with KKW TKD is an interesting one.  I'll be following with interest as you express yourself well and I can easily visualize what you describe.



Thanks.  I appreciate the support.  I think I might start a video blog or something of the sort to document the process.


----------



## lifespantkd

SPX said:


> Some may have found it a somewhat disconcerting site--for the reasons you mentioned--but this is 2012. Sure, there are bigots in America--as there are all over the world--but for the most part I don't think people sit around with prejudice in their heart, actively looking down on people of other races from other places. In fact, many people probably found it a refreshing act of patriotism for an immigrant to embrace the US like that. I know that I would have.



The challenge, even today, for many who belong to a dominant social majority is not to overcome their overt prejudice and intolerance, but to overcome their covert over-privilege which they have culturally been taught to not even see. Prejudice based on race, ethnicity, nationality, gender, ability, weight, age, and so on causes harm not just through overt acts. It causes harm because numerous privileges are available to those of the dominant social majority that are not available to those of the non-dominant social minority. For more on this, see Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy McIntosh: http://ted.coe.wayne.edu/ele3600/mcintosh.html. The incredible diversity found among practitioners of Taekwondo--be it based on style, nationality, fitness, gender, age, and so on--is an invitation for each of us to work to eliminate overt and covert forms of prejudice, intolerance, and over-privilege for the benefit of ourselves and each member of this very global community.

Cynthia


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

puunui said:


> Towards the end he proudly exclaimed that "I am an American" and I was looking at his Korean face, speaking with a Korean accent, wondering how many in the room disagreed with him.


That reminds me of the movie Dragon: The Bruce Lee story, where he is called Chink (part 3), and at the end of the fight (part 4) he says "I'm an American".

part 3: 



part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxqYjEzGEPs&feature=relmfu


----------



## TaekwonPRO

Twin Fist said:


> you got so called masters dogging on people FOR WINNING
> 
> you got other so called masters advocating for the removal of hand techniques




Who is saying this?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

TaekwonPRO said:


> Who is saying this?


Its not hard to guess who's saying this. Go back through the thread, you wont miss it. I nearly fell off my chair when I read the bit about removal of hand techniques.


----------



## puunui

TaekwonPRO said:


> Who is saying this?



Jidokwan GM LEE Chong Woo, who many consider the main architect of WTF competition sparring. 

&#8220;I thought Taekwondo should become a sport for competition from the beginning
stage, if we wanted to upgrade the value of Taekwondo. I was criticized a lot when the
competitors were injured, but the rate of injury was minimal. On the contrary, we must
emphasize the improvement of skills that are enhanced every day when contestants fight.
When you look at all the sports, boxing employs hand techniques using the fist, and
therefore I decided we should develop Taekwondo as a sport emphasizing foot
techniques. We restricted hand techniques and we developed competition rules for
Taekwondo mainly emphasizing kicking techniques . . .&#8221; -- GM LEE Chong Woo


----------



## Gorilla

The new EBP's have brought back hand tech's in WTF TKD.  The fighters in Hawaii are some of the biggest users of punching in The USA.  Jared McKee probably punches more than he kicks.

Troy Garrr's team also punchs allot.  

The scoring of punches is much more liberal than it used to be.  The Spanish Open 2010 they scored allot of punches.

I like the punching aspect it brings our Shotokan training into play.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Gorilla said:


> The new EBP's have brought back hand tech's in WTF TKD.  The fighters in Hawaii are some of the biggest users of punching in The USA.  Jared McKee probably punches more than he kicks.
> 
> Troy Garrr's team also punchs allot.
> 
> The scoring of punches is much more liberal than it used to be.  The Spanish Open 2010 they scored allot of punches.
> 
> I like the punching aspect it brings our Shotokan training into play.


Thanks Gorilla, thats great to hear. Tkd with punching is great to watch.


----------



## ATC

Gorilla said:


> The new EBP's have brought back hand tech's in WTF TKD.  The fighters in Hawaii are some of the biggest users of punching in The USA.  Jared McKee probably punches more than he kicks.
> 
> Troy Garrr's team also punchs allot.
> 
> The scoring of punches is much more liberal than it used to be.  The Spanish Open 2010 they scored allot of punches.
> 
> I like the punching aspect it brings our Shotokan training into play.


Yes Garr's team punches alot. That is how my son lost to a kid he be easily a couple time before. The kid scored 4 punches on him. I have since started training my kids more in punching because of that. You have to adapt with what works.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> you got so called masters dogging on people FOR WINNING
> 
> you got other so called masters advocating for the removal of hand techniques
> 
> NO WONDER TKD is becomming the laughing stock of martial arts
> 
> and this crap and the people spewing it all have one thing in common:
> WTF


I don't think that taekwondo is becoming or has become the laughing stock of martial arts.  I do think that there is a very big disconnect with what is done in Korea and what is done here.  I do not mean to say that a disconnect has developed, but that it has been there from the outset.  If it had not been there, taekwondo in the US would look very different.

But it is there and taekwondo in the US looks the way it does.  Not good or bad; it simply is.  In the US, we have one major Korean organization (KKW/WTF), one smaller federation that has a lot of traction because it was started by Gen. Choi (ITF), one major American organization that broke away from Gen. Choi's org. (ATA), Jhoon Rhee TKD, and numerous smaller groups that have broken off from mostly the ITF and a large number of independents.

I suspect that they're all 'good' depending upon what you are looking for.  You are one of the independents.  From our conversations here, if I were nearby where you are, I'd gladly stop in to train.  But if I were looking to go to the olympics or wanted a more sport oriented school, I'd look at a school that leans in that direction.

Be proud of what you do, TF.  You don't need to knock what the rest do.



Twin Fist said:


> i swear, that craptastic body in korea will kill this art if they are allowed to.


Actually, I think that commercialization in the US will kill this art if it is allowed to, regardless of what federations you are looking at.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> his arms are tired from throwing punches....



I don't think that that is the case.

I watched the entire video and my assessment is that kicking is the primary method of scorring, as there was a lot more kicking than punching.  Looked an awful lot like a WTF match with head punching thrown in and hogu thrown out.

I really don't see how you can like this but dislike the WTF sparring with such intensity.  If it is simply because punches are deemphasized by comparison, then I certainly hope that you hate boxing for its utter lack of anything but.


----------



## puunui

Gorilla said:


> The new EBP's have brought back hand tech's in WTF TKD.  The fighters in Hawaii are some of the biggest users of punching in The USA.  Jared McKee probably punches more than he kicks.



I know. My student started that punch scoring trend in the 90's. As for jared, i love him like my own son. I just promoted him to Kukkiwon 3rd Dan a couple of months ago, paying the test fee myself, because he is a starving athlete with no money. During friday night or saturday morning sparring class, if someone was showing a bad attitude or needed discipline, I would tell jared to dish it out. 

There was a taekwondo student here who hopped around from gym to gym. No one really liked him, mainly because of his parents but also because of him as well. Hawaii is very open, anyone can train at any other dojang, as long as the instructor agreed, so this student used to come around. When it was that boy's turn, I told jared to score ten back kicks on that boy and I counted out as he landed each one, to the mom's horror, while his instructor (my student who started the punch scoring trend) chuckled to himself, because he knew what I was doing, and why. If you ever saw the movie Men of Honor, I looked like Robert Deniro at the end, but instead of counting out twelve steps in a 290 pound suit, I was counting out ten back kicks landing on a hogu. 

The sad thing was, that boy had talent and in my opinion, could have been yet another team member contender from Hawaii. I understand he no longer does taekwondo.

Which brings us to this:



Gorilla said:


> I like the punching aspect it brings our Shotokan training into play.



I think that is the thing that hurts taekwondo the most, that people feel the need to change it to suit their own interest. Instead of thinking "I like punching, so I will dog WTF competition because it doesn't have any" or "I or my students will gain a competitive advantage if we have more punches scored", I would rather look at the overall picture and see taekwondo competition (at least at the Olympics or under the WTF Rules) and try to understand the rationale behind the decision to emphasize kicks. To that end, we have the words of GM LEE Chong Woo on that: "When you look at all the sports, boxing employs hand techniques using the fist, and therefore I decided we should develop Taekwondo as a sport emphasizing foot techniques. We restricted hand techniques and we developed competition rules for Taekwondo mainly emphasizing kicking techniques . . . 

We should consider that before implementing any changes to the competition rules, that shooting for a balance between punches and kicks takes away taekwondo's unique characteristic, and makes us less distinguishable from karate, kickboxing or mma. Put another way, some Hawaii kids may get hurt by a decision to deemphasize punch scoring, but that should not be a factor in my position with respect to scoring punches. To do so would mean that I put my own interests over and above what is in the best interests of taekwondo as a sport in the Olympic Games.


----------



## puunui

ATC said:


> I have since started training my kids more in punching because of that. You have to adapt with what works.



Has your crew adapted to Daedo now that Lajust is no more?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> I am not advocating for the removal of hand techniques in taekwondo, just in the competition format, shihap kyorugi. You can punch all you want in self defense, in poomsae, in kyuk pa, where ever else in taekwondo. Or do you find it too hard to compartmentalize like that?


So you would like to see the WTF rules eliminate punching altogether?  If yes, than why?  Not criticizing one way or the other; simply trying to see your position.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So you would like to see the WTF rules eliminate punching altogether?  If yes, than why?  Not criticizing one way or the other; simply trying to see your position.



For the reasons stated by GM LEE Chong Woo. Scoring with kicks in a competitive format is taekwondo's unique characteristic. You can punch all you want to the body to set up kicks, but I wouldn't score any punches. Cleaner, easier to understand and makes for more exciting matches.  

Boxing has no kicks, but I don't see anyone screaming about that. I once saw a fight in high school between two golden gloves champions, one a friend of mine, and the other the younger brother of a different friend. One had karate training in addition to boxing, the other only boxing. They squared off and the one with karate training started mercilessly kicking the other in the leg, which took all the steam out of the boxer only's game. The boxer eventually got knocked out by the karate boxer. But when the karate boxer fought in golden gloves matches, he did not use kicks, but just punches. 

So you can train for both self defense and tournaments using a more restrictive rule set and be effective in both. And if you do not like WTF competition under the kick focused rules, then you can fight at different tournaments using different rules and no one will criticize you for it. However, it seems that people feel the need to jump up and down and loudly criticize the WTF Rules.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> For the reasons stated by GM LEE Chong Woo. Scoring with kicks in a competitive format is taekwondo's unique characteristic. You can punch all you want to the body to set up kicks, but I wouldn't score any punches. Cleaner, easier to understand and makes for more exciting matches.
> 
> Boxing has no kicks, but I don't see anyone screaming about that. I once saw a fight in high school between two golden gloves champions, one a friend of mine, and the other the younger brother of a different friend. One had karate training in addition to boxing, the other only boxing. They squared off and the one with karate training started mercilessly kicking the other in the leg, which took all the steam out of the boxer only's game. The boxer eventually got knocked out by the karate boxer. But when the karate boxer fought in golden gloves matches, he did not use kicks, but just punches.
> 
> So you can train for both self defense and tournaments using a more restrictive rule set and be effective in both. And if you do not like WTF competition under the kick focused rules, then you can fight at different tournaments using different rules and no one will criticize you for it. However, it seems that people feel the need to jump up and down and loudly criticize the WTF Rules.


Makes sense to me.  I think a lot of the reason that people criticize the emphasis on kicking is that we're accustomed to boxing and the idea of a 'clean' punching only fight.  We are also accustomed to wrestling, which is, of course, just wrestling.  I'm not sure why a kicking only or a kicking mostly game bothers people so much.  Maybe they feel that boxing more closely resembles a 'real fight' so they are okay with it?  But since sporting events aren't 'real fights' I don't see what the big deal is.  It's like saying that baseball is inferior to kendo because you can only hit the ball and not the pitcher.  

I suppose that if a taekwondoist _really_ wanted to enter such tournaments, they could locate open open tournaments and compete.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> For the reasons stated by GM LEE Chong Woo. Scoring with kicks in a competitive format is taekwondo's unique characteristic. You can punch all you want to the body to set up kicks, but I wouldn't score any punches. Cleaner, easier to understand and makes for more exciting matches.
> 
> Boxing has no kicks, but I don't see anyone screaming about that. I once saw a fight in high school between two golden gloves champions, one a friend of mine, and the other the younger brother of a different friend. One had karate training in addition to boxing, the other only boxing. They squared off and the one with karate training started mercilessly kicking the other in the leg, which took all the steam out of the boxer only's game. The boxer eventually got knocked out by the karate boxer. But when the karate boxer fought in golden gloves matches, he did not use kicks, but just punches.
> 
> So you can train for both self defense and tournaments using a more restrictive rule set and be effective in both. And if you do not like WTF competition under the kick focused rules, then you can fight at different tournaments using different rules and no one will criticize you for it. However, it seems that people feel the need to jump up and down and loudly criticize the WTF Rules.



Excellent posts.  Keeping punching to the body in the game, but not allowing it to score, is actually genius.  This mean's no one is punching for points, they are punching to shut down the other fighter through shear brute force of the punch, which has to be perfect to weaken the body, not so perfect to knockout to the jaw.

Our seniors all ready hashed all this out for us, 50 years ago.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Makes sense to me.  I think a lot of the reason that people criticize the emphasis on kicking is that we're accustomed to boxing and the idea of a 'clean' punching only fight.  We are also accustomed to wrestling, which is, of course, just wrestling.  I'm not sure why a kicking only or a kicking mostly game bothers people so much.  Maybe they feel that boxing more closely resembles a 'real fight' so they are okay with it?  But since sporting events aren't 'real fights' I don't see what the big deal is.  It's like saying that baseball is inferior to kendo because you can only hit the ball and not the pitcher.
> 
> I suppose that if a taekwondoist _really_ wanted to enter such tournaments, they could locate open open tournaments and compete.


As someone else pointed out a while ago, the difference is that everything in boxing's skillset is on display during a boxing match. They dont kick, but hey, boxing skillset doesnt include kicking so who cares. Tkd's skillset does include far more than just kicking and that is where I think the problem lies with a lot of people.


----------



## mastercole

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Makes sense to me.  I think a lot of the reason that people criticize the emphasis on kicking is that we're accustomed to boxing and the idea of a 'clean' punching only fight.  We are also accustomed to wrestling, which is, of course, just wrestling.  I'm not sure why a kicking only or a kicking mostly game bothers people so much.  Maybe they feel that boxing more closely resembles a 'real fight' so they are okay with it?  But since sporting events aren't 'real fights' I don't see what the big deal is.  It's like saying that baseball is inferior to kendo because you can only hit the ball and not the pitcher.
> 
> I suppose that if a taekwondoist _really_ wanted to enter such tournaments, they could locate open open tournaments and compete.



This is just my personal opinion, gained over decades of being involved in all this. I have found that those who never learned to kick correctly, or could not, are the ones that slam it the most.

Myself, I was a very good puncher, boxing and then Isshin-ryu was my first martial art. I was not the greatest kicker but I was smart enough to search out the greatest kickers, learn from them and pass it on to my students.  If the students excelled and if I noticed they had great potential I sent them to train with elite Taekwondoin.

I never let my lack of kicking skill get in the way of making sure my students had the best chance possible.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ralphmcpherson said:


> As someone else pointed out a while ago, the difference is that everything in boxing's skillset is on display during a boxing match. They dont kick, but hey, boxing skillset doesnt include kicking so who cares. Tkd's skillset does include far more than just kicking and that is where I think the problem lies with a lot of people.


The question then becomes this: is sparring meant to represent the breadth of the art or is it meant only to showcase the art in some meaningful way?  Sport karate and ITF rules do not allow for the full breadth of techniques either, but are set up to display the arts that they represent in a meaningful way.  

If its *just* self defense that people want, I would frankly steer people away from any of the traditional martial arts.  Not that you can't defend your self with MA training, but the teaching pedagogy is geared towards training fighters and towards training people to be better people, as well as teaching cultural elements, not training a person to take care of themselves in the circumstances that they are most likely to encounter.


----------



## Twin Fist

last time i checked it was tae kwon do

foot

fist 

way

not foot way

foot FIST way

you no punches types are only doing half the art. in short, you are not doing tae kwon do, you are doing korean kickboxing

at least have the decency to admit it.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> last time i checked it was tae kwon do
> 
> foot
> 
> fist
> 
> way
> 
> not foot way
> 
> foot FIST way
> 
> you no punches types are only doing half the art. in short, you are not doing tae kwon do,


But they aren't saying 'no punches,' but 'punches for setting up and wearing down your opponent so that you may score with a kick.'

Huge difference.  No punches creates setting up with positioning only.  There would be no wearing down of your opponent with blows that that are not scored unless you are kicking to illegal target areas.



Twin Fist said:


> you are doing korean kickboxing
> 
> at least have the decency to admit it.


Well, if there _really_ are *no* punches, scored or otherwise, then it wouldn't be kick boxing, but foot fencing.  

What you advocate _is_ actually kickboxing, which is essentially what karate tournament rules and ITF tournament rules amount to.  Let's face it, there are tons of hand techniques in both TKD and karate that are prohibited in karate tournaments and in ITF tournaments.


----------



## chrispillertkd

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Let's face it, there are tons of hand techniques in both TKD and karate that are prohibited in karate tournaments and in ITF tournaments.



How many "tons" of hand techniques are _prohibited_ in ITF tournaments? 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> last time i checked it was tae kwon do
> 
> foot fist way
> 
> not foot way
> 
> foot FIST way
> 
> you no punches types are only doing half the art. in short, you are not doing tae kwon do, you are doing korean kickboxing



Funny that you mention "foot fist way", because I can associate you with that movie for some reason. But even though the translation is roughly foot fist way, it does not infer or imply that it has to be 50/50 foot and fist throughout the art. Some areas can have more and other areas less. For example, poomsae is much heavily weighted towards hand techniques, with some kicks included. These include punches or strikes to the head, the throat, the legs, the groin, etc. In sparring, there is much more emphasis on kicks, with some punching. That is the balance in taekwondo; it doesn't have to be 50/50 punches and kicks in all areas. Even the forms you practice are not balanced fifty fifty. 

Over and beyond that, no one really cares what you do in your own taekwondo. If you want to enter tournaments that punch to the head, go for it. If you do not want to enter tournaments using the wtf rules, then don't. No one will think less of you if you opt out of that. If you do not want kukkiwon certification, same thing, no one will bust on you for that.  In fact, no one will think anything no matter what you do with your taekwondo. I know I am not sitting here in judgment of what you do or how you do it, whether you agree with me or not.


----------



## dancingalone

chrispillertkd said:


> How many "tons" of hand techniques are _prohibited_ in ITF tournaments?
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



Hmm, looking at this copy of the rules http://tkd-itf.org/pub_web/docs/200...Senior Tournament Rules - April 24th 2006.doc, the prohibitions against specific techniques seem to be minimal.  No biting or scratching.  No elbows, knees, or forehead attacks (headbutt I assume).  That leaves a lot of other hand techniques available although certainly the use of padded gloves along with specified legal targets will make their use unlikely.


----------



## puunui

chrispillertkd said:


> How many "tons" of hand techniques are _prohibited_ in ITF tournaments?



I don't know about "tons" but what about joint locks and throws? Are those allowed in ITF tournaments? Can I grab someone's leg in an ITF tournament without penalty? Can I spear hand someone in the eyes?


----------



## Twin Fist

you are starting to sound obtuse.

I could care less what boxers do since 1) i am not a boxer and 2) the lack of kicking in boxing is due to the lack of KICKS in boxing

tae kwon do

REAL tae kwon do includes punches

when certain asshats and the orgs they belong to think it is a good idea to take out HALF the art, yeah, thats retarded. And it is no longer Tae KWON do

foot fencing works as well as what i call it, Korean Ballet dancing....



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I certainly hope that you hate boxing for its utter lack of anything but.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> REAL tae kwon do includes punches
> 
> when certain asshats and the orgs they belong to think it is a good idea to take out HALF the art, yeah, thats retarded. And it is no longer Tae KWON do



No one is taking out half the art, in spite of your assertions to the contrary. There are lots of punches in both the Kukkiwon and WTF competition (check out the poomsae competition for example). 

PS: Chon Ji has no kicks and neither does dan gun. Are you saying those aren't taekwondo forms?


----------



## Twin Fist

in point of fact, no, they are not TKD forms, they are re-arranged japanese forms stolen by korean martial artists who were shotokan stylists and didnt have the education or skill to come up with thier own material

they are just used in TKD, they are not korean anything.

in a Tae Kwon Do competition, advocating that half the art NOT be scored, which is what you are doing is RETARDED and it a betrayal of the art you claim to love.

the decathalon has five events in it 

BY NAME

take out one, and you can still call it the decathalon, but it aint

TKD sparring without punches isnt TKD

it is friggin ballet

IMO



puunui said:


> No one is taking out half the art, in spite of your assertions to the contrary. There are lots of punches in both the Kukkiwon and WTF competition (check out the poomsae competition for example).
> 
> PS: Chon Ji has no kicks and neither does dan gun. Are you saying those aren't taekwondo forms?


----------



## RobinTKD

dancingalone said:


> Hmm, looking at this copy of the rules http://tkd-itf.org/pub_web/docs/200...Senior Tournament Rules - April 24th 2006.doc, the prohibitions against specific techniques seem to be minimal.  No biting or scratching.  No elbows, knees, or forehead attacks (headbutt I assume).  That leaves a lot of other hand techniques available although certainly the use of padded gloves along with specified legal targets will make their use unlikely.



In the UK it all depends what organisation you fight with as they all tend to have their own rules, though there is a blanket ban on palm fists, ridge hands and spear hands, you'll rarely see anything more than a straight or vertical punch or a back fist. And you are right, the regulation gloves prevent any of the techniques I listed being used anyway, that's why we spar using WTF gloves.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

chrispillertkd said:


> How many "tons" of hand techniques are _prohibited_ in ITF tournaments?
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Oh, I don't know.  

Can you use/score with spear hand?
Can you use/score with the shuto?  
Can you use/score with (assuming a similar technique is found in those styles) groin grabs?
Can you use/score with eye gouging?
Can you use/score with an arch hand strike?
Can you use/score with a ridge hand?
Can you use/score with a palm strike?
Can you use/score with a back fist?

While we're at it,

Can you use/score with elbow strikes? 
Can you use/score with knee strikes?

I'm pretty sure that the answer is no to all of the above except for maybe the back fist.


----------



## chrispillertkd

dancingalone said:


> That leaves a lot of other hand techniques available although certainly the use of padded gloves along with specified legal targets will make their use unlikely.



When I took the ITF Umpire course last year I specifically asked about this. The presentation focused a lot on forefist punching, indeed it covered primarily front punches with the forefist when talking about punching. Master Muleta specified that _any_ hand technique could be used (forefist punch, back fist, side fist, knife hand, reverse knife hand, long fist, etc.) and punches could come in any variety (front punch, crescent punch, upward punch, upset punch, etc.). The only caveat was that the attacking tool on the hand had to be covered, which basically leaves out the use of the palm, bear hand, or open fist. As for target area, I honestly don't know that that would be much of a factor in the majority of cases. The use of gloves would tend to open up possibilities rather than limit them, I think. 

Hand techniques can also be used while flying and when landed they are scored higher than standing techniques. You'll often see ITF fighters go airborn in order to make up a deficit or cement a lead. Front punches are common here, but I've seen backfists score as well.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## chrispillertkd

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Oh, I don't know.
> 
> Can you use/score with spear hand?



A finger tip thrust? Yes.



> Can you use/score with the shuto?




A knife hand? Yes.



> Can you use/score with (assuming a similar technique is found in those styles) groin grabs?



If you can grab someone's groin above the belt, I imagine so. No attacking below the belt, but that's a matter of target area not technique.



> Can you use/score with eye gouging?



You can't attack the eyes. Again, that's a limitation of target area, not attacking technique. You couldn't attack them with a flat fingertip thrust, for instance, let alone a double fingertip thrust.



> Can you use/score with an arch hand strike?



Yes.



> Can you use/score with a ridge hand?



A reverse knife-hand? Yes.



> Can you use/score with a palm strike?



The portion of the hand used to attack must be covered by the glove so, generally, no since palms are often not covered.



> Can you use/score with a back fist?



Yes.



> Can you use/score with elbow strikes?
> Can you use/score with knee strikes?



Are either of those things considered part of your hand? 



> I'm pretty sure that the answer is no to all of the above except for maybe the back fist.



As you can see, that's not correct. Certain techniques are more popular than others, certainly, but there are many that are legal to use. 

Why the hostility? 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> in point of fact, no, they are not TKD forms, they are re-arranged japanese forms stolen by korean martial artists who were shotokan stylists and didnt have the education or skill to come up with thier own material
> 
> they are just used in TKD, they are not korean anything.
> 
> in a Tae Kwon Do competition, advocating that half the art NOT be scored, which is what you are doing is RETARDED and it a betrayal of the art you claim to love.
> 
> the decathalon has five events in it
> 
> BY NAME
> 
> take out one, and you can still call it the decathalon, but it aint
> 
> TKD sparring without punches isnt TKD
> 
> it is friggin ballet
> 
> IMO


That goes a bit too far in my estimation, particularly the part about the forms.  

As for the rest, you don't even do the same type of TKD that he does and are unencumbered by any decisions made by the Kukkiwon or WTF.  

I love more hands in fighting.  I practice hapkido at a Moo Moo Kwan school.  We spar using IHF rules, which for lack of a better way of describing it, looks more like the fighting in Best of the Best, and even incorporates locks, sweeps and take downs.  I also practice and teach kendo, where we fence with full contact and bamboo swords that don't bend like those foils, sabers, and epees do.

But that doesn't make one better or the other lesser; I'm happy doing what I'm doing.  I would like to start getting back into taekwondo, and if time permits, I definitely will.  I still know and practice my pumse.  

By the way, I trained in Shotokan many years ago, and while I couldn't perform any of the kata if you paid me Brad Pitt's salary for Moneyball, I do remember enough to say that the Taegeuk Pumse are not reworked Shotokan.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

chrispillertkd said:


> A finger tip thrust? Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A knife hand? Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> If you can grab someone's groin above the belt, I imagine so. No attacking below the belt, but that's a matter of target area not technique.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't attack the eyes. Again, that's a limitation of target area, not attacking technique. You couldn't attack them with a flat fingertip thrust, for instance, let alone a double fingertip thrust.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> A reverse knife-hand? Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> The portion of the hand used to attack must be covered by the glove so, generally, no since palms are often not covered.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Are either of those things considered part of your hand?
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, that's not correct. Certain techniques are more popular than others, certainly, but there are many that are legal to use.
> 
> Why the hostility?
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


What hostility??  How am I being hostile to you?  Did I go after you in some way?  Did I patronize you in some way?  Did I call you names?  Did I put up some insulting graphic?


----------



## Twin Fist

Daniel Sullivan said:


> We spar using IHF rules, which for lack of a better way of describing it, looks more like the fighting in Best of the Best, and even incorporates locks, sweeps and take downs.



1) that sparring ruleset sounds awesome, and i liked the fightin in best of the best. and they scored punches

2) the taegeuk are not reworked shotokan, the chong han, which he named, ARE.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> 1) that sparring ruleset sounds awesome, and i liked the fightin in best of the best. and they scored punches


The first Best of the Best was fantastic!  Rest of the movie was pretty good too.



Twin Fist said:


> 2) the taegeuk are not reworked shotokan, the chong han, which he named, ARE.


Ah.  Well, I have never practiced Chang Hon tul, so I have no comment on their relation to Shotokan kata.


----------



## chrispillertkd

Daniel Sullivan said:


> What hostility?? How am I being hostile to you? Did I go after you in some way? Did I patronize you in some way? Did I call you names? Did I put up some insulting graphic?



Yes, in the post of yours where you listed various techniques asking whether they were allowed in ITF sparring you came across as quite patronizing.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

chrispillertkd said:


> Yes, in the post of yours where you listed various techniques asking whether they were allowed in ITF sparring you came across as quite patronizing.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


It wasn't the intent.  Sorry if you took it that way.


----------



## mastercole

chrispillertkd said:


> Yes, in the post of yours where you listed various techniques asking whether they were allowed in ITF sparring you came across as quite patronizing.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



I don't think he did, it looked liked serious questions, enough so that I was curious to find the answer myself.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

mastercole said:


> I don't think he did, it looked liked serious questions, enough so that I was curious to find the answer myself.


They were serious questions, and they were about karate and ITF, not just ITF, though Chris did address that element.  I do have further questions regarding hand techs and ITF sparring.

The ones that he stated are legal, such as spear hand, ridge hand, knife hand, and arch hand. would be very difficult, if not impossible to pull off with gloves.  I looked up sparring rules for the ITF and while I was able to find a pdf on the subject, it did not detail what techniques were actually allowed and what were not, nor what the target areas were.

Some of those techniques, such as the arch hand, are relatively ineffective unless they target areas that are probably not legal in sparring.

As I said, my original comment was regarding both Karate and ITF TKD.  

Regarding knees and elbows, Chris is correct in pointing out that they are not "hand" techniques.  But, are they taught in the ITF syllabus or in some of the more prominent karate ryus?  I suspect that the answer is yes, given that they are also part of the Kukkiwon syllabus and factor into several of the pumse.  If they are part of ITF and karate, are they allowed in ITF or karate sparring and can one score with them?

And what are the viable target areas in sport karate and ITF sparring?


----------



## mastercole

Daniel Sullivan said:


> They were serious questions, and they were about karate and ITF, not just ITF, though Chris did address that element.  I do have further questions regarding hand techs and ITF sparring.
> 
> The ones that he stated are legal, such as spear hand, ridge hand, knife hand, and arch hand. would be very difficult, if not impossible to pull off with gloves.  I looked up sparring rules for the ITF and while I was able to find a pdf on the subject, it did not detail what techniques were actually allowed and what were not, nor what the target areas were.
> 
> Some of those techniques, such as the arch hand, are relatively ineffective unless they target areas that are probably not legal in sparring.
> 
> As I said, my original comment was regarding both Karate and ITF TKD.
> 
> Regarding knees and elbows, Chris is correct in pointing out that they are not "hand" techniques.  But, are they taught in the ITF syllabus or in some of the more prominent karate ryus?  I suspect that the answer is yes, given that they are also part of the Kukkiwon syllabus and factor into several of the pumse.  If they are part of ITF and karate, are they allowed in ITF or karate sparring and can one score with them?
> 
> And what are the viable target areas in sport karate and ITF sparring?



Interesting subject.  I'll start a new thread. ITF sparring rules.


----------



## dancingalone

chrispillertkd said:


> When I took the ITF Umpire course last year I specifically asked about this. The presentation focused a lot on forefist punching, indeed it covered primarily front punches with the forefist when talking about punching. Master Muleta specified that _any_ hand technique could be used (forefist punch, back fist, side fist, knife hand, reverse knife hand, long fist, etc.) and punches could come in any variety (front punch, crescent punch, upward punch, upset punch, etc.). The only caveat was that the attacking tool on the hand had to be covered, which basically leaves out the use of the palm, bear hand, or open fist. As for target area, I honestly don't know that that would be much of a factor in the majority of cases. The use of gloves would tend to open up possibilities rather than limit them, I think.
> 
> Hand techniques can also be used while flying and when landed they are scored higher than standing techniques. You'll often see ITF fighters go airborn in order to make up a deficit or cement a lead. Front punches are common here, but I've seen backfists score as well.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



Good information, thanks.  

Regarding the legal target areas not being a factor in usage of certain hand techniques.... Well, I'm all for training for fit.  Sometimes a vertical fist 'fits' better for a certain target at a certain angle than the horizontal fist does, which is a good argument for training both if you can.  Same deal with the other more obscure strikes.  The tiger mouth is a good attack against the throat.  Would I use it against the torso?  Well, probably not, so I doubt I would use it in a tournament either, wearing hand pads, aiming for the torso.  Could you use it and score with it in a match?  I suppose so - not optimal though.


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> Good information, thanks.
> 
> Regarding the legal target areas not being a factor in usage of certain hand techniques.... Well, I'm all for training for fit.  Sometimes a vertical fist 'fits' better for a certain target at a certain angle than the horizontal fist does, which is a good argument for training both if you can.  Same deal with the other more obscure strikes.  The tiger mouth is a good attack against the throat.  Would I use it against the torso?  Well, probably not, so I doubt I would use it in a tournament either, wearing hand pads, aiming for the torso.  Could you use it and score with it in a match?  I suppose so - not optimal though.



What you call "tiger mouth", or, agwison Kaljebi is likely a technique borrowed from Taekkyon of a similar name. Of course this technique is applied differently in Taekwondo, but in Taekkyon it was used against the body as a pushing motion meant to destabilize your opponent. There are other Taekkyon related techniques found in Koryo which is appropriate considering the name "Koryo" and the Poomsaeseon is the symbol for "scholar" or learned man. 

A learned man, who studies deeply about Korea (Koryo) will come to understand Taekkyon's influence on Taekwondo, among other things.


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And what are the *viable target areas in sport karate* and ITF sparring?



WKF does not forbid open hand strikes but they are not permitted to the face.  No elbows or knees although sweeps and throws are allowed.  Legal targets are the head, face, chest, abdomen, side, and back.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> in point of fact, no, they are not TKD forms, they are re-arranged japanese forms stolen by korean martial artists who were shotokan stylists and didnt have the education or skill to come up with thier own material



I think you mean okinawan forms, not japanese. But in any event, which forms do you consider to be korean, if any?




Twin Fist said:


> in a Tae Kwon Do competition, advocating that half the art NOT be scored, which is what you are doing is RETARDED and it a betrayal of the art you claim to love.



The art that i claim to love isn't the same art that you claim to love. Frankly, I don't know if you love anything, because seems like every time I read a post of yours, it is highly critical and negative. That is a hard place to be, constantly at odds with the world, in my opinion. 




Twin Fist said:


> TKD sparring without punches isnt TKD



Do you have anything to support your position other than you own opinion?


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> WKF does not forbid open hand strikes but they are not permitted to the face.



How does that work? No ridge hand to the face, but you can to the body? How about palm strike?


----------



## dancingalone

mastercole said:


> What you call "tiger mouth", or, agwison Kaljebi is likely a technique borrowed from Taekkyon of a similar name. Of course this technique is applied differently in Taekwondo, but in Taekkyon it was used against the body as a pushing motion meant to destabilize your opponent. There are other Taekkyon related techniques found in Koryo which is appropriate considering the name "Koryo" and the Poomsaeseon is the symbol for "scholar" or learned man.
> 
> A learned man, who studies deeply about Korea (Koryo) will come to understand Taekkyon's influence on Taekwondo, among other things.



While that is very interesting and I appreciate the information, my information on the tiger mouth strike didn't come filtered through taekwondo.  The technique is found in karate.  I use the term koko uchi, but I believe some styles do call it something else as well.


----------



## Cyriacus

puunui said:


> *Do you have anything to support your position other than you own opinion?*



Ill support His Statement there, with this:

Because the only reason TKD wouldnt have Punching is if it was Deliberately, Manually Removed.


----------



## Twin Fist

puunui said:


> I think you mean okinawan forms, not japanese. But in any event, which forms do you consider to be korean, if any?



the taegueks and up

MOST of the chong han are "borrowed" shotokan forms, except for hwa rhang, and chung mu, some of the dan forms were original is i recall correctly.




puunui said:


> The art that i claim to love isn't the same art that you claim to love. Frankly, I don't know if you love anything, because seems like every time I read a post of yours, it is highly critical and negative. That is a hard place to be, constantly at odds with the world, in my opinion.



 you damned sure dont know ME . Remember that. I AM highly critical of the KKW and the WTF it serves. 

cuz they friggin SUCK.

1 year BB's

1st dan "masters"

BB's that cant punch

totally false and made up history

and you ENDORSE that ****.

thats true, your art isnt mine. My art is Tae Kwon DO

you endorse a "sport" that isnt an art at all.

and let me see if i can find small enough words for you to grasp

Tae Kwon Do

in the name itself, FIST

take out fists, it is not Tae Kwon Do anymore.

you cant argue with the friggin NAME dude


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> How does that work? No ridge hand to the face, but you can to the body? How about palm strike?



Sounds about right though I am no expert.  Haven't attended a WKF tourny in years.  

You can definitely score with either strike to the body.  I've seen in the colored belt divisions people drop low to their knees to get a single point, striking with a heel to the gut.


----------



## chrispillertkd

dancingalone said:


> Good information, thanks.
> 
> Regarding the legal target areas not being a factor in usage of certain hand techniques.... Well, I'm all for training for fit. Sometimes a vertical fist 'fits' better for a certain target at a certain angle than the horizontal fist does, which is a good argument for training both if you can. Same deal with the other more obscure strikes. The tiger mouth is a good attack against the throat. Would I use it against the torso? Well, probably not, so I doubt I would use it in a tournament either, wearing hand pads, aiming for the torso. Could you use it and score with it in a match? I suppose so - not optimal though.



I agree with you, largely. It's one of the reasons why pre-arranged sparring (3-, 2-, and 1-step sparring), semi-free sparring, and ho sin sul are very important aspects to training. One of the Training Secrets of Taekwon-Do is "To choose the appropriate attacking tool for each vital spot," after all. 

I will say, the arc hand is used to attack the adams apple, point of chin, and upper neck, all of which are legla target areas in sparring. If you're going to attempt an inward travelling strike to the torso in a sparring competition instead of an arc hand I'd suggest using a reverse knife-hand. The formation is quite similar but has additional target areas (including the ribs). 

The addition of a padded glove does allow a fighter to attack a wider variety of targets, even if less attention is paid to getting the proper "fit." I don't like it but there you go. One of the requirements for scoring is that the execution of the technique must be "controlled and in the correct target." The judges _shouldn't_ score an arc-hand to the body but would score a reverse knife-hand. With a glove on it would be harder to tell which of those two tools were used, which is why more emphasis is placed on getting the hit. It's a trade off, and one I'm not thrilled with. 

It's also one reason why I wouldn't mind seeing a bareknuckle category for sparring. The ITF already does run a full contact tournament circuit but it uses hand and foot pads. 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## MSUTKD

mastercole said:


> Poomsaeseon is the symbol for "scholar" or learned man.



I think you mean yun mu seon, same a embussen in karate.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> you cant argue with the friggin NAME dude



Actually you can argue with the name. The original name for the art, as announced by ROK President Syngman Rhee, was "taekkyon". Because hanja (chinese characters) were important at the time, a search was conducted for the hanja for taekkyon. There is none. So they went with the closest thing they could find, taekwon, which was supposed to stand for taekkyon. So really if you wish to be technical about it, the name of the art really is taekkyon or taekkyondo, not taekwondo. And beyond that, the intent of the name was for taekkyon, not "foot fist way". So there goes your "fist", if you are talking about focusing in on the name only.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> thats true, your art isnt mine.



If your art isn't mine, then why the constant complaining and grumbling? No one cares what you do. Why do you care what we do? Do you even do taekwondo anymore? Aren't you a kajukenbo guy now?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

puunui said:


> Funny that you mention "foot fist way", because I can associate you with that movie for some reason. But even though the translation is roughly foot fist way, it does not infer or imply that it has to be 50/50 foot and fist throughout the art. Some areas can have more and other areas less. For example, poomsae is much heavily weighted towards hand techniques, with some kicks included. These include punches or strikes to the head, the throat, the legs, the groin, etc. In sparring, there is much more emphasis on kicks, with some punching. That is the balance in taekwondo; it doesn't have to be 50/50 punches and kicks in all areas. Even the forms you practice are not balanced fifty fifty.
> 
> Over and beyond that, no one really cares what you do in your own taekwondo. If you want to enter tournaments that punch to the head, go for it. If you do not want to enter tournaments using the wtf rules, then don't. No one will think less of you if you opt out of that. If you do not want kukkiwon certification, same thing, no one will bust on you for that.  In fact, no one will think anything no matter what you do with your taekwondo. I know I am not sitting here in judgment of what you do or how you do it, whether you agree with me or not.


You somehow associate twin fist with "fist foot way?". Twin fist is against mcdojos, against kiddie black belts, against commercialisation, against black belts who cant fight, and basically against everything the dojo in that movie stood for, and somehow you associate him with that guy. Pot, kettle, black.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> the taegueks and up



Which you don't practice right? Therefore, what you do isn't taekwondo, but rather some sort of reorganized shotokan, if you follow your logic through. Sounds like you need to change the name of what you do to something else. Perhaps "modified shotokan karate" would be appropriate, since shotokan allows punches and kicks to the head, which is what you like.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> you damned sure dont know ME . Remember that. I AM highly critical of the KKW and the WTF it serves.
> 
> cuz they friggin SUCK.


Groan.  This is how my teenagers talk.  Honestly, you make valid points or points that are worthy of discussion, but when you intersperse it with this sort of phrasing, you detract from those points.



Twin Fist said:


> 1 year BB's
> 
> 1st dan "masters"
> 
> BB's that cant punch
> 
> totally false and made up history
> 
> and you ENDORSE that ****.


First dan being addressed as master I really do not care for either.  I'm not going to get upset over it though.

BBs that cannot punch is not org specific but school specific.  I hold a first dan ranking in Kukkiwon taekwondo and believe me, I can punch.  I've seen ten year olds in Kukkiwon taekwondo that can punch very nicely too.  I've also seen twenty year olds whose punches look like wet noodles thrashing about.  And I've seen it in both KKW schools and in non KKW and non TKD schools.  That is an instruction issue and not an org issue.

Not going to get into the history discussion or what I think Glenn endorses in regards to it.  I will only say that the history that is currently on the website looks okay.  It isn't meant to be an exhaustive, detailed history, and is probably way more than they needed to post, but it does the job and it does nicely segregate modern taekwondo from earlier KMA while still connecting them.



Twin Fist said:


> thats true, your art isnt mine. My art is Tae Kwon DO
> 
> you endorse a "sport" that isnt an art at all.
> 
> and let me see if i can find small enough words for you to grasp
> 
> Tae Kwon Do
> 
> in the name itself, FIST
> 
> take out fists, it is not Tae Kwon Do anymore.
> 
> you cant argue with the friggin NAME dude


You are so focused with arguing about the sparring rules that you are overlooking the rest of the art.  Sparring is only a part of Kukkiwon taekwondo and punches are a part of it.  

Regarding the name, tae-kwon-do, if memory serves, it means to the way of trampling or crushing with the feet and striking or smashing with the fists.  The description that Glenn gave of wearing down the body with powerful blows from the fist (destruction) so that the opponent is set up to struck by the foot (trample or crush) seems to fit that description, whether or not the punches are scored (currently they are), so I don't see why you go further than simply disliking the rule set.

I do happen to think that much of what you and I see as being 'wrong' with taekwondo is really McDojo-ism and belt factories, which are not limited to taekwondo.  Outside of MA circles, most people really have no idea.

It's kind of like a good friend of mine who teaches guitar and has been playinhg for years.  He tends to want to educate the audience when he plays out and has a lot of criticism of music today.  Are his criticisms valid?  Sure.  Is he educating the audience?  Not one bit.  He plays overly complicated stuff that only other musicians who know music theory at his level will appreciate.  Then he has a hard time getting gigs and gets upset that Nirvana got popular playing 2.5 chords with no solos.

Most martial arts practitioners that I meet in person have a great deal of respect for taekwondo and ask me a lot of questions about it.  They really don't know all that much about and are happy for some first hand info.  Most people looking at MA schools also seem to think that TKD is just peachy; they keep signing up and in greater numbers than at schools teaching other arts.


----------



## Twin Fist

....................so Tae Kwon do, literally foot fist way doesnt actually mean foot fist way

ok, clearly you are dealing with a reality that the rest of us are not invited into. Except maybe for that cole fellow, and you are welcome to him.

have fun dude......


/eyeroll



puunui said:


> Actually you can argue with the name. The original name for the art, as announced by ROK President Syngman Rhee, was "taekkyon". Because hanja (chinese characters) were important at the time, a search was conducted for the hanja for taekkyon. There is none. So they went with the closest thing they could find, taekwon, which was supposed to stand for taekkyon. So really if you wish to be technical about it, the name of the art really is taekkyon or taekkyondo, not taekwondo. And beyond that, the intent of the name was for taekkyon, not "foot fist way". So there goes your "fist", if you are talking about focusing in on the name only.


----------



## mastercole

MSUTKD said:


> I think you mean yun mu seon, same a embussen in karate.



I believe they are basically the same though "Poomsaeseon" would be current terminology, according to WTF and Kukkiwon.  Maybe a better visual for readers would be the Chinese character for mountain; shan or san.  Keumgang's Poomsae line is in the shape of this character, Koryo moves along the one for scholar.


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> While that is very interesting and I appreciate the information, my information on the tiger mouth strike didn't come filtered through taekwondo.  The technique is found in karate.  I use the term koko uchi, but I believe some styles do call it something else as well.



That is interesting, can you share any links that show it?


----------



## MSUTKD

Actually yun mu seon is the current and old terminology. Case in point, the current WTF Poomsae Competition rules, article 9 - 2.1.


----------



## Twin Fist

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Most martial arts practitioners that I meet in person have a great deal of respect for taekwondo and ask me a lot of questions about it.  They really don't know all that much about and are happy for some first hand info.  Most people looking at MA schools also seem to think that TKD is just peachy; they keep signing up and in greater numbers than at schools teaching other arts.



this isnt my experience AT ALL

you know who is signing up for TKD? kids

the fastest growing org? the ATA

And I am not the one ripping part of the art out, the WTF-o-philes are the ones advocating that. I want TKD to become and remain a vibrant, complete, MARTIAL art

i happen to think the sparring rules you described earlier are the best i have heard of that allow the safest use of the widest range of TKD's elements.

as for the rest Daniel remember, one person teaching or doing cheese makes us all look cheesy by association

think on that


----------



## Twin Fist

we call it "American TKD" here in Texas.

some call it Tex Kwon Do

we dont go to the olympics, but we can punch you in the face all day long



puunui said:


> Which you don't practice right? Therefore, what you do isn't taekwondo, but rather some sort of reorganized shotokan, if you follow your logic through. Sounds like you need to change the name of what you do to something else. Perhaps "modified shotokan karate" would be appropriate, since shotokan allows punches and kicks to the head, which is what you like.


----------



## mastercole

MSUTKD said:


> Actually yun mu seon is the current and old terminology. Case in point, the current WTF Poomsae Competition rules, article 9 - 2.1.



That's interesting.  Poomsaeseon (Poomsae line) is a term commonly used by the WTF in written material in regard to Poomsae, actually I have not run across that term for some time. Can you send me a copy of the rules, or point me to a link?  I'd like to read more about them.  Thanks!


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Groan.  This is how my teenagers talk.  Honestly, you make valid points or points that are worthy of discussion, but when you intersperse it with this sort of phrasing, you detract from those points.
> 
> 
> First dan being addressed as master I really do not care for either.  I'm not going to get upset over it though.
> 
> BBs that cannot punch is not org specific but school specific.  I hold a first dan ranking in Kukkiwon taekwondo and believe me, I can punch.  I've seen ten year olds in Kukkiwon taekwondo that can punch very nicely too.  I've also seen twenty year olds whose punches look like wet noodles thrashing about.  And I've seen it in both KKW schools and in non KKW and non TKD schools.  That is an instruction issue and not an org issue.
> 
> Not going to get into the history discussion or what I think Glenn endorses in regards to it.  I will only say that the history that is currently on the website looks okay.  It isn't meant to be an exhaustive, detailed history, and is probably way more than they needed to post, but it does the job and it does nicely segregate modern taekwondo from earlier KMA while still connecting them.
> 
> 
> You are so focused with arguing about the sparring rules that you are overlooking the rest of the art.  Sparring is only a part of Kukkiwon taekwondo and punches are a part of it.
> 
> Regarding the name, tae-kwon-do, if memory serves, it means to the way of trampling or crushing with the feet and striking or smashing with the fists.  The description that Glenn gave of wearing down the body with powerful blows from the fist (destruction) so that the opponent is set up to struck by the foot (trample or crush) seems to fit that description, whether or not the punches are scored (currently they are), so I don't see why you go further than simply disliking the rule set.
> 
> I do happen to think that much of what you and I see as being 'wrong' with taekwondo is really McDojo-ism and belt factories, which are not limited to taekwondo.  Outside of MA circles, most people really have no idea.
> 
> It's kind of like a good friend of mine who teaches guitar and has been playinhg for years.  He tends to want to educate the audience when he plays out and has a lot of criticism of music today.  Are his criticisms valid?  Sure.  Is he educating the audience?  Not one bit.  He plays overly complicated stuff that only other musicians who know music theory at his level will appreciate.  Then he has a hard time getting gigs and gets upset that Nirvana got popular playing 2.5 chords with no solos.
> 
> Most martial arts practitioners that I meet in person have a great deal of respect for taekwondo and ask me a lot of questions about it.  They really don't know all that much about and are happy for some first hand info.  Most people looking at MA schools also seem to think that TKD is just peachy; they keep signing up and in greater numbers than at schools teaching other arts.


does it not become an org issue though? Whats the point of an org?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Twin Fist said:


> this isnt my experience AT ALL
> 
> you know who is signing up for TKD? kids
> 
> the fastest growing org? the ATA
> 
> And I am not the one ripping part of the art out, the WTF-o-philes are the ones advocating that. I want TKD to become and remain a vibrant, complete, MARTIAL art
> 
> i happen to think the sparring rules you described earlier are the best i have heard of that allow the safest use of the widest range of TKD's elements.
> 
> as for the rest Daniel remember, one person teaching or doing cheese makes us all look cheesy by association
> 
> think on that


Its not my experience either. Google "taekwondo" and have a read about what the larger community think of tkd, I honestly dont think there is another martial art currently shrouded in so much negativity. That is one good thing about large orgs though, you can become so entenched in that org with your head in the sand and create your own perfect little tkd world and close your eyes to all else that is going on. It is fact that the art of tkd is losing credibility fast, its just whether or not people want to admit it. The only reason numbers grow in tkd is because no one does any research before signing up to martial arts and by the time they realise what they are doing they are too entrenched in the system to change. The other reason is pure saturation, there is a tkd dojang at the end of every street. As Ive said many times, just because something is popular doesnt make it good, too many people for too long have lived by the rule that "tkd must be good, its the fastest growing ma in the world". By that logic, mcdonalds is a good restaurant. Im just so glad there are still some reputable tkd clubs out there doing the right thing and teaching real martial arts.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Its not my experience either. Google "taekwondo" and have a read about what the larger community think of tkd, I honestly dont think there is another martial art currently shrouded in so much negativity. That is one good thing about large orgs though, you can become so entenched in that org with your head in the sand and create your own perfect little tkd world and close your eyes to all else that is going on. It is fact that the art of tkd is losing credibility fast, its just whether or not people want to admit it. The only reason numbers grow in tkd is because no one does any research before signing up to martial arts and by the time they realise what they are doing they are too entrenched in the system to change. The other reason is pure saturation, there is a tkd dojang at the end of every street. As Ive said many times, just because something is popular doesnt make it good, too many people for too long have lived by the rule that "tkd must be good, its the fastest growing ma in the world". By that logic, mcdonalds is a good restaurant. Im just so glad there are still some reputable tkd clubs out there doing the right thing and teaching real martial arts.



I disagree with you. I travel the world and never find negativity toward Taekwondo.  What I find is a great interest from the multitude of people who attend international Taekwondo events.  I do find negativity on the internet coming from behind a keyboard from people who do live in a true "perfect little world" and never venture out of that safe, protected little world.  A perfect little world would be the one small and unknown tiny world, outside of the 80 million members and 200 nations. My experience is not from some backyard BBQ at the Budweiser Hoe Down, but that is just me, not everyone.


----------



## Twin Fist

you prob deal only with other WTF-o-phile kukki-sheeps


----------



## Twin Fist

quoted for truth



ralphmcpherson said:


> Its not my experience either. Google "taekwondo" and have a read about what the larger community think of tkd, I honestly dont think there is another martial art currently shrouded in so much negativity. *That is one good thing about large orgs though, you can become so entenched in that org with your head in the sand and create your own perfect little tkd world and close your eyes to all else that is going on.* It is fact that the art of tkd is losing credibility fast, its just whether or not people want to admit it. The only reason numbers grow in tkd is because no one does any research before signing up to martial arts and by the time they realise what they are doing they are too entrenched in the system to change. The other reason is pure saturation, there is a tkd dojang at the end of every street. As Ive said many times, just because something is popular doesnt make it good, too many people for too long have lived by the rule that "tkd must be good, its the fastest growing ma in the world". By that logic, mcdonalds is a good restaurant. Im just so glad there are still some reputable tkd clubs out there doing the right thing and teaching real martial arts.


----------



## mastercole

MSUTKD said:


> Actually yun mu seon is the current and old terminology. Case in point, the current WTF Poomsae Competition rules, article 9 - 2.1.



No need to send me a link, I just found the rules on the WTF site. I did find the Yunmooson term. It was used in the creative Poomsae rules, stating basically that the contestant in creative Poomsae could choose their own yunmooson, or direction line.

What I am curious of is that I did not see that term used in connection with the traditional Poomsae, and, the materials I have from the WTF only refer to traditional Poomsae, so, is yunmooson a word used for just creative Poomsae, where the line generally does not correspond to a Chinese character and the term Poomsaeseon is reserved for traditional Poomsae only, where a set meaning is found in the Chinese character?

Or maybe they are just interchangeable terms?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> I disagree with you. I travel the world and never find negativity toward Taekwondo.  What I find is a great interest from the multitude of people who attend international Taekwondo events.  I do find negativity on the internet coming from behind a keyboard from people who do live in a true "perfect little world" and never venture out of that safe, protected little world.  A perfect little world would be the one small and unknown tiny world, outside of the 80 million members and 200 nations. My experience is not from some backyard BBQ at the Budweiser Hoe Down, but that is just me, not everyone.


so what your saying is your info comes from international tkd events where you typically only run into like minded people. To me, its 'bbq at the budweiser hoe down' where I get to talk to 'real' people, people not involved in tkd hanging out at international events. It would be like going to a cricket game and asking members of the crowd if they like watching cricket, you're not going to get a very well rounded view. But as I said, thats the beauty of large orgs you can just talk to like minded people and think all is fine and dandy.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> so what your saying is your info comes from international tkd events where you typically only run into like minded people. To me, its 'bbq at the budweiser hoe down' where I get to talk to 'real' people, people not involved in tkd hanging out at international events. It would be like going to a cricket game and asking members of the crowd if they like watching cricket, you're not going to get a very well rounded view. But as I said, thats the beauty of large orgs you can just talk to like minded people and think all is fine and dandy.



Wrong. The latest international Taekwondo event I attended had Taekwondo practitioners from over 100 nations from 5 different world regions. Many had family & friends there as well. The thousands of us there were from a mix from different cultures, languages, customs, social status and belief systems. Not a like minded small group of people from the same home town you would find hanging out at the local backyard dojo.


----------



## Gorilla

I watched the Diaz v Condit fight with some BJJ guys and they were fascinated by TKD.  Our Shotokan school is using tkd kicks now in it's fighting style.

I am just not running into the hate tkd guys that much.


----------



## Twin Fist

Translation: 
I was with TKD people, and they all liked TKD so i find your opinion less than convincing..





mastercole said:


> Wrong. The latest international* Taekwondo event* I attended had *Taekwondo practitioners* from over 100 nations from 5 different world regions. Many had family & friends there as well. The thousands of us there were from a mix from different cultures, languages, customs, social status and belief systems. Not a like minded small group of people from the same home town you would find hanging out at the local backyard dojo.



EXCEPT THEY WERE ALL TKD STUDENTS OR RELATIVES OF TKD STUDENTS

DUH


----------



## mastercole

Gorilla said:


> I watched the Diaz v Condit fight with some BJJ guys and they were fascinated by TKD.  Our Shotokan school is using tkd kicks now in it's fighting style.
> 
> I am just not running into the hate tkd guys that much.



We get MMA guys stop in occasionally asking us to show them ways to improve their kicking. I'll let them jump into our elite workout and do our kicking and contact drills, then that is it, I don't take on anyone as a student, or customer. All were impressed with the explosiveness and devastating impact of our fighters kicks during full contact drills. The thing is they did not want to focus on the detail of the kick, they were more interested in experiencing it and trying it.

But I would never train any of them, even though we were offered good money to do it, it's not my thing, that is for someone else.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> Wrong. The latest international Taekwondo event I attended had Taekwondo practitioners from over 100 nations from 5 different world regions. Many had family & friends there as well. The thousands of us there were from a mix from different cultures, languages, customs, social status and belief systems. Not a like minded small group of people from the same home town you would find hanging out at the local backyard dojo.


so they were all tkdists or friends or families of tkdists, of course you will only get the answers you want hear. I might head down to a local bjj tournament this weekend and ask people what they think of bjj . Then I might head down to the local guitar shop and ask what everybodies favourite musical instrument is. You sure do have an interesting way of doing research.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> I might head down to a local bjj tournament this weekend and ask people what they think of bjj . Then I might head down to the local guitar shop and ask what everybodies favourite musical instrument is. You sure do have an interesting way of doing research.



I thought all your research had possibly been at the local level. Thanks for clarifying that.


----------



## Dirty Dog

mastercole said:


> I thought all your research had possibly been at the local level. Thanks for clarifying that.



So... you truely don't see why doing "research" on peoples opinions of taekwondo at a taekwondo event will tend to bias the results?
You know, I bet if you survey people at a bar, they'll have lots of good things to say about booze. Interview people on certain street corners and they'll have all kinds of nice things to say about meth.

I suspect you know this already, and you're being willfully obtuse.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> I thought all your research had possibly been at the local level. Thanks for clarifying that.


If I want to know what the broader martial arts communities view of tkd is Im certainly not going to ask tkdists. It appears that makes complete sense to others but not to you for some reason. It certainly does clear up why you have such a "rosy" view of things though.


----------



## MSUTKD

mastercole said:


> No need to send me a link, I just found the rules on the WTF site. I did find the Yunmooson term. It was used in the creative Poomsae rules, stating basically that the contestant in creative Poomsae could choose their own yunmooson, or direction line.
> 
> What I am curious of is that I did not see that term used in connection with the traditional Poomsae, and, the materials I have from the WTF only refer to traditional Poomsae, so, is yunmooson a word used for just creative Poomsae, where the line generally does not correspond to a Chinese character and the term Poomsaeseon is reserved for traditional Poomsae only, where a set meaning is found in the Chinese character?
> 
> Or maybe they are just interchangeable terms?



I would consider yun mu seon to be a relatively technical term and poomsae seon a colloquial one, so you're right pretty interchangeable. The reason it is not brought up in the traditional section is because in those poomsae the yun mu seon is fixed; no need to bring it up. The definition of yun mu seon, like em bu sen, is performing martial line.  I hear lots of discussion on it purpose but as you said, it is used for creating a literary object embedded in the form, i.e. Chinese Character or symbol.


----------



## Earl Weiss

puunui said:


> Actually you can argue with the name. The original name for the art, as announced by ROK President Syngman Rhee, was "taekkyon QUOTE]
> 
> I disagree with your statement. While president Rhee may have exclaimed something like "That's taekkyon" after watching a demo, or whatever the Korean equivalent of a similar statement is, that is a far cry from establishing that this should be the name for the Korean Martial Art.


----------



## Earl Weiss

ralphmcpherson said:


> Its not my experience either. Google "taekwondo" and have a read about what the larger community think of tkd, I honestly dont think there is another martial art currently shrouded in so much negativity. .



Also attend various open MA events, conventions, seminars, competitions etc. 
o


----------



## dancingalone

mastercole said:


> That is interesting, can you share any links that show it?



I'm not aware of any goju-ryu websites that have pictures of the handstrikes along with the names.  It is essentially spreading the area between your thumb and index finger to form a wide 'mouth' to strike with.  The way my sensei teaches it, the mouth is somewhat more open than a c-shape.  He often compared it to an old arrow he had seen from centuries ago where the arrow head likewise was shaped somewhat like a letter c.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ralphmcpherson said:


> does it not become an org issue though? Whats the point of an org?


Completely different subject and one that has nothing to do with any of what I posted.  

Or you have an incorrect understanding of what an organization's function is.  Frankly, I think that many of the people who spend their time org. bashing have a skewed understanding of what an organization's function is.


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Completely different subject and *one that has nothing to do with any of what I posted.  *



Very likely.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Or you have an incorrect understanding of what an organization's function is.  Frankly, I think that many of the people who spend their time org. bashing have a skewed understanding of what an organization's function is.



The word organization in of itself is very generic.  


1. the act of organizing or the state of being organized2. an organized structure or whole3. a business or administrative concern united and constructed for a particular end4. a body of administrative officials, as of a political party, a government department, etc 5. order or system; method 

There's really no reason why martial arts organizations could not have some level of ongoing testing and review to certify and verify competence of their members.  If they wanted it, that is.

For the record, I like some of the things the KKW does already, such as the Foreign Instructor's Course along with the requirement to test in person in Korea  for 8th and 9th dan in front of the kwan heads.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ralphmcpherson said:


> Its not my experience either. Google "taekwondo" and have a read about what the larger community think of tkd, I honestly dont think there is another martial art currently shrouded in so much negativity. *That is one good thing about large orgs though, you can become so entenched in that org with your head in the sand and create your own perfect little tkd world and close your eyes to all else that is going on.*



Hardly compelling; I can just as easily say this:

That's the one good thing about being independent though, you can become so entrenched in your little bubble with your head in the sand and create your own perfect little TKD world and close your eyes to all else that's going on.



ralphmcpherson said:


> It is fact that the art of tkd is losing credibility fast, its just whether or not people want to admit it. The only reason numbers grow in tkd is because no one does any research before signing up to martial arts and by the time they realise what they are doing they are too entrenched in the system to change. The other reason is pure saturation, there is a tkd dojang at the end of every street. As Ive said many times, just because something is popular doesnt make it good, too many people for too long have lived by the rule that "tkd must be good, its the fastest growing ma in the world". By that logic, mcdonalds is a good restaurant. Im just so glad there are still some reputable tkd clubs out there doing the right thing and teaching real martial arts.


While popularity does not make something necesarilly 'good,' I also think that most of what you ascribe to organizations is again, at a school level.  People become entrenched in the world of the school and 'sensei says thus and so, so that is how it is...' is how they form their opinions.  

Remember, the only contact that 90% of those in martial arts have with any greater organization is through those that directly teach them.  You can take away the organization and the dynamic will remain.

What you don't seem to understand is that there is a ballanced way to look at this.  It isn't an either/or with regards to organizations.  I have trained in both independent schools and affiliated schools.  I am the owner of an an independent school.  Yay for me.  I can tell my students they fight like the shinsengumi they are and they will all believe me.  I can tell them that I train in a secret style of kendo handed down by Musashi and they will believe me.  Why?  Because they have no involvement with an organization or greater kendo community to tell them differently.  Independent schools are just soooo much better than those organizational school in that regard aren't they?

I *do* look into how TKD is perceived and I *don't* just talk to TKD people.  And I live in a very populous and very educated area.  I gather with a good number of people who are MA-ists in a variety of styles from mma to wushu to tai chi to bagua to aikido to BJJ to Japanese jujutsu, to koryu kenjutsu to hapkido to historical WMA.  I also gather with a lot of people who have their kids in various MA schools, some TKD and some not.  And I gather with people who have no kids an little MA contact.  

I just don't see the 'taekwondo is losing credibility' they way that people on the internet like to portray it.  Aside from saying, "I googled it/read a blog/its all over B-shido," where are you getting this idea that TKD is losing credibility from?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> Very likely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The word organization in of itself is very generic.
> 
> 
> 1.
> the act of organizing or the state of being organized
> 2.
> an organized structure or whole
> 3.
> a business or administrative concern united and constructed for a particular end
> 4.
> a body of administrative officials, as of a political party, a government department, etc
> 5.
> order or system; method
> 
> 
> There's really no reason why martial arts organizations could not have some level of ongoing testing and review to certify and verify competence of their members. If they wanted it, that is.
> 
> For the record, I like some of the things the KKW does already, such as the Foreign Instructor's Course along with the requirement to test in person in Korea for 8th and 9th dan in front of the kwan heads.


When I say that people have a skewed understanding, I mean that they have these ideas that being part of an organization means that everything that is wrong or problematic in their eyes is a result of the org.  They either think that the org is ramming bad stuff down their throats and telling them how to run their schools or not controlling member schools to their satisfaction.

The fact that both criticisms are often leveled simultaneously tells me that those leveling the criticism are not really all that familiar with the org or orgs that they are bashing; if you don't want them telling you how to run your school then don't complain when the org isn't telling member schools how to operate.

People want to critque the sparring rules.  Well, those rules are unimportant if you aren't competing, and those who beat the drum the loudest seem to be the 'this is a martial art and not a sport' crowd.  Fine.  If sport has no part of what they do, then why are they complaining?  On the other hand, there isn't anything stopping those who do compete and blast the orgs from organizing tournaments themselves.  I mean they do seem to be in regular communciation via the internet.  

But that requires a ton of work that they either don't have the time to do or don't know how to begin doing, so they don't.

If all of these folks who bash the orgs would get together, they could put together their own organization, formalize curriculum, and present a untited front, promoting their 'real' taekwondo and saving the masses from those fakes/frauds/mcdojos/whatever.  But they don't.  And they won't.  

Because again, that requires a ton of work and effort that they either haven't the time or resouces for or don't know how to begin doing, so they don't.

Or none of them can agree on enough to join with anyone, so the only thing they can do is band together on the web to slam people who do put the time, effort, and energy into building something up, often at great personal sacrifice.


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> When I say that people have a skewed understanding, I mean that they have these ideas that being part of an organization means that everything that is wrong or problematic in their eyes is a result of the org.  They either think that the org is ramming bad stuff down their throats and telling them how to run their schools or not controlling member schools to their satisfaction.
> 
> The fact that both criticisms are often leveled simultaneously tells me  that those leveling the criticism are not really all that familiar with  the org or orgs that they are bashing; if you don't want them telling  you how to run your school then don't complain when the org isn't  telling member schools how to operate.



Yes, it doesn't make sense to lodge both charges at the same time.  To be fair though, I don't recall seeing anyone here doing that.  The bulk of the vitriol directed at the KKW by the likes of TF has to do with Olympic rules sparring.  He also is fairly down on the KKW due to 1 year dans.  Any ire from other people really has more to do with poor management ongoing with the US NGB, not with the KKW itself other than a vague desire that they do more to rein in the NGB.  

My thought is that many on this board, without necessarily knowing what it entails, would welcome a stronger presence from the KKW in the daily running of their dojang.  (Although I am not sure their sabum agree!)  Things like a more comprehensive KKW-endorsed curriculum or a stronger credentialing process for low dans and possibly even geup ranks.

An organization can have many operating rules to follow along with a strong member certification and ongoing maintenance/verification process.  While more intrusive, arguably this makes it a credible force to further the interests of its members as well as their united cause.  Or it can go in the opposite direction and have minimal regulations and minimal membership review and thus be more of a networking and friendship group. 

Which is the KKW I wonder?  Which is it supposed to be - which should it be if it is not one already?




Daniel Sullivan said:


> People want to critque the sparring rules.  Well, those rules are unimportant if you aren't competing, and those who beat the drum the loudest seem to be the 'this is a martial art and not a sport' crowd.  Fine.  If sport has no part of what they do, then why are they complaining?  On the other hand, there isn't anything stopping those who do compete and blast the orgs from organizing tournaments themselves.  I mean they do seem to be in regular communciation via the internet.



I believe TF has said many times in one way or another that he doesn't like Olympic sparring representing TKD in general to the masses. 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> But that requires a ton of work that they either don't have the time to do or don't know how to begin doing, so they don't.
> 
> If all of these folks who bash the orgs would get together, they could put together their own organization, formalize curriculum, and present a untited front, promoting their 'real' taekwondo and saving the masses from those fakes/frauds/mcdojos/whatever.  But they don't.  And they won't.
> 
> Because again, that requires a ton of work and effort that they either haven't the time or resouces for or don't know how to begin doing, so they don't.
> 
> Or none of them can agree on enough to join with anyone, so the only thing they can do is band together on the web to slam people who do put the time, effort, and energy into building something up, often at great personal sacrifice.



Careful.  Your joiner bias is showing again.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> Yes, it doesn't make sense to lodge both charges at the same time. *To be fair though, I don't recall seeing anyone here doing that. *The bulk of the vitriol directed at the KKW by the likes of TF has to do with Olympic rules sparring. He also is fairly down on the KKW due to 1 year dans. Any ire from other people really has more to do with poor management ongoing with the US NGB, not with the KKW itself other than a vague desire that they do more to rein in the NGB.


Not so much recently, but at one point, the 'KKW isn't gonna tell me how to run my school' was a common rant against the organization and the sentiment is still made periodically.  And those who beat that drum the loudest are also the same ones that want the Kukkiwon to ennact and enforce policies to curb errant school owners.



dancingalone said:


> An organization can have many operating rules to follow along with a strong member certification and ongoing maintenance/verification process. While more intrusive, arguably this makes it a credible force to further the interests of its members as well as their united cause. Or it can go in the opposite direction and have minimal regulations and minimal membership review and thus be more of a networking and friendship group.
> 
> Which is the KKW I wonder? Which is it supposed to be - which should it be if it is not one already?


I think that it falls somewhere in between... or perhaps completely outside?  There are no member schools; the KKW does not certify schools and school owners don't register their club with the KKW.  The WTF also has no member schools and club owners do not register their clubs with the WTF.  I do think that club owners can register their club with USAT, however, but I am not sure of this.  Regardless, it is not a requirement.

The KKW sets standards and measurements essentially.  Kind of like a TKD SAE.  They offer continuing education in the form of instructor courses and offer a mechanism for certification and registry thereof.  The process of carrying out the certification is left to the individual school owners; it isn't like kendo where ikyu and above are organizational gradings that require organizational representatives to be on hand.  This is usually the area where detractors complain about lack of oversight, but would also be appalled at the thought of USAT reps being on hand, or 'foreign organizational officials' being on hand to administer gradings.



dancingalone said:


> I believe TF has said many times in one way or another that he doesn't like Olympic sparring representing TKD in general to the masses.


He and others.  But given that 'the masses' don't get to watch taekwondo during the Olympics because it isn't televised, it really doesn't represent anything to the masses.  It is the local schools that represent taekwondo to the masses.  So in essence, there is more credence to the arguments that one bad school makes all of them look bad, though I don't fully buy into that either.



dancingalone said:


> Careful. Your joiner bias is showing again.


Not so much a joiner as looking at it through a ballanced lens.  

My former kendo and hapkido GM was one of those who broke off and started his own 'federations' and might I add, with a lot of prodding from people that he probably should not have been listening to at the time.  

When I separated from him, I aligned myself with the mainstream kendo curriculum, though I did not join the AUSKF.  I have had some communication with the GNEUSKF (Greater Northeastern United States Kendo Federation) and have met with the people that I was directed to, but it has not gone any further at this point.  I can definitely see the benefits in a competitive art to being part of the larger organization.  At the same time, I am presently content in my independent status.  I do, however make sure that my students are aware that I am independent and that if they wish to go to competitions, they would do well to connect with the kendo club in Rockville, which is a part of the GNEUSKF.  

I have also become a part of Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu (paid dues and regularly attend and train, not just cross training).  My former GM had a kenjutsu element to his curriculum, a factor that I liked, but he was not himself a kenjutsu instructor nor part of any ryu.  

As far as hapkido goes, I joined a Moo Moo Kwan dojang, though mainly because I really like the school owner.  She could have been independent and I would have still trained under her.


----------



## lifespantkd

Daniel Sullivan said:


> There are no member schools; the KKW does not certify schools and school owners don't register their club with the KKW.



The Kukkiwon has the "Kukkiwon Membership System": http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/front...629&category=1&pageNum=1&searchKey=&searchVal=

I'll start a new thread for those wishing to discuss it.

Cynthia


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

lifespantkd said:


> The Kukkiwon has the "Kukkiwon Membership System": http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/front...629&category=1&pageNum=1&searchKey=&searchVal=
> 
> I'll start a new thread for those wishing to discuss it.
> 
> Cynthia


Definitely do, please.  That is new; apparently about a year and two months months new.  Interesting.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> ....................so Tae Kwon do, literally foot fist way doesnt actually mean foot fist way
> 
> ok, clearly you are dealing with a reality that the rest of us are not invited into.



I'm not making this up. Go read General Choi's autobiography for more information.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> I'm not making this up. Go read General Choi's autobiography for more information.



Imagine that


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> we call it "American TKD" here in Texas.



Why associate with taekwondo at all? After all even you said you do not practice any korean forms, that the ones you do practice are _"re-arranged japanese forms stolen by korean martial artists who were shotokan stylists and didnt have the education or skill to come up with thier own material_". Perhaps a better name for your style would be "American Rearranged Shotokan".




Twin Fist said:


> some call it Tex Kwon Do



No wonder you have such a hard time with the wtf competition format -- you guys took out the tae and therefore the kicks in your art in favor of punches. 




Twin Fist said:


> we dont go to the olympics, but we can punch you in the face all day long



Sounds like karate to me. The more you explain about what you do, the more it sounds like "American Rearranged Shotokan".


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> Translation:
> I was with TKD people, and they all liked TKD so i find your opinion less than convincing..
> 
> EXCEPT THEY WERE ALL TKD STUDENTS OR RELATIVES OF TKD STUDENTS
> 
> DUH




That's right, 70 million taekwondo practitioners can't be all wrong. Or maybe they are, in your opinion. Why search google when we can see how popular taekwondo is worldwide. Even MT acknowledges that taekwondo the popularity of taekwondo. I can understand why other styles would criticize taekwondo - it kills their potential student base and their livelihood.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> *Why associate with taekwondo at all?* After all even you said you do not practice any korean forms, that the ones you do practice are _"re-arranged japanese forms stolen by korean martial artists who were shotokan stylists and didnt have the education or skill to come up with thier own material_". Perhaps a better name for your style would be "American Rearranged Shotokan".


I suspect that that is the name that his instructors identified with their curriculum.



puunui said:


> No wonder you have such a hard time with the wtf competition format -- you guys took out the tae and therefore the kicks in your art in favor of punches.


If I'm not mistaken, somewhere in his lineage somebody was influenced by western boxing, which I was told several years ago (cannot remember by who; might have been Exile or Dancingalone, but it's been over three years) in a thread that that was what distinguished their 'American Taekwondo' from KKW and Chang Hon.  Kicks are not removed, but the high kicking is not as emphasized and there is, as I recall, more of a ballance between hand/arm techniques and foot/leg techniques.



puunui said:


> Sounds like karate to me. The more you explain about what you do, the more it sounds like "American Rearranged Shotokan".


Actually, it sounds like an independent school using Chang Hon forms, which I believe are open source.

Whether or not it is really taekwondo kind of depends on how you are using the term I suppose.  This has probably been asked of you before, and probably by me, but do you view taekwondo as more of an umbrella term or as a term for a specific art?

There are a good number of people here who view it as an umbrella term for various Korean language striking systems that trace their lineage back to either the ITF, the KKW, or to one of the kwans prior to the formation of those bodies.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> That's right, *70 million taekwondo practitioners can't be all wrong*.


There was an Elvis Presley album with a similar title.View attachment $50,000,000 elvis fans.jpg


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> I travel the world and never find negativity toward Taekwondo.  What I find is a great interest from the multitude of people who attend international Taekwondo events.  I do find negativity on the internet coming from behind a keyboard from people who do live in a true "perfect little world" and never venture out of that safe, protected little world.  A perfect little world would be the one small and unknown tiny world, outside of the 80 million members and 200 nations. My experience is not from some backyard BBQ at the Budweiser Hoe Down, but that is just me, not everyone.



Exactly.


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If I'm not mistaken, somewhere in his lineage somebody was influenced by western boxing, which I was told several years ago (cannot remember by who; might have been Exile or Dancingalone, but it's been over three years) in a thread that that was what distinguished their 'American Taekwondo' from KKW and Chang Hon.  Kicks are not removed, but the high kicking is not as emphasized and there is, as I recall, more of a ballance between hand/arm techniques and foot/leg techniques.
> 
> 
> Actually, it sounds like an independent school using Chang Hon forms, which I believe are open source.




Yes, I believe TF and I studied much the same TKD system.  It's the Jhoon Rhee/Allen Steen lineage in Texas which eventually evolved over the years adding Western boxing among other influences.  The lineage/style was quite famous during the Blood and Guts era of sport karate producing some noted practitioners like Pat Burleson (he was a Golden Gloves boxer so maybe the boxing came from him), Skipper Mullins, and Demetrius Havanas.  People have called it American *Tae Kwon Do* at times, following Jhoon Rhee's lead, and it has been affectionately nicknamed Tex Kwon Do, the name meant to convey more of a Lone Star flavor to it than really saying anything about a lack of kicking within it.  Though certainly, the method of kicking and training kicks is not the same seen currently with Olympic TKD athletes.

The forms used are the Chang Hon forms, though I've never encountered any school in the lineage that actually uses all of the Choi forms.  They seem to top out after 4-5 of the dan hyung and then supplement with some Japanese forms like Tekki, Bassai Dai, and Kanku Dai.  No sine wave as Jhoon Rhee learned the forms without characteristic ITF movement.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> My thought is that many on this board, without necessarily knowing what it entails, would welcome a stronger presence from the KKW in the daily running of their dojang.  (Although I am not sure their sabum agree!)  Things like a more comprehensive KKW-endorsed curriculum or a stronger credentialing process for low dans and possibly even geup ranks.



We're getting there. As more time passes, taekwondo becomes more and more unified. I notice that the next generation of kukki taekwondo instructors want to be in compliance with kukkiwon standards, something that their instructor and/or instructor's instructor wasn't really interested in. Ten years ago, we had much more disharmony. Today, with assistance through things like the kukkiwon instructor courses, world poomsae championships, etc., practitioners are beginning to understand what kukki taekwondo is about. And they like it. 

I can understand the apprehension regarding competition under the wtf rules. Competition has evolved such that without training, it is difficult to get. If you do not understand the concept of stance and steps as well as roundhouse kick, then the probability of doing well is low. In fact, the probability of losing badly is very high, as is the probability of a knockout. It is a scary thing to be in a ring with someone who is obviously more familiar with the rules than you are, and have training to maximize effectiveness using those rules. Dr. Jin Bang YANG, the current executive director of the KTA, likened learning sparring in the old days as being thrown in deep water and being told to swim, with little or no instruction. Many people sank under such circumstances, if they ever got into the water at all. 

But there is hope. There is a lot of instructional video and dvd out there now, many on youtube. Still I do believe that instruction on the basics from an experienced instructor or coach is necessary. Sometimes all that is needed is simple things, a proper stance, a proper roundhouse kick, how to hold a paddle, the importance of being a good training partners for paddle and hogu drills, ten basic hogu drills for attack and defense. People take that, a lightbulb goes off in their head, and suddenly instead of fighting it because they don't understand it, they bloom. I have seen it time and time again. 

That will be one of the keys to rebuilding USAT in my opinion, offering opportunities to develop those basics so coaches and competitors can bloom.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> No sine wave as Jhoon Rhee learned the forms without characteristic ITF movement.



I don't think anyone taught GM Rhee those Chang Hon tul. In fact, he told mastercole, myself and others at a USTU tournament that he learned those forms by himself through a copy of the ROK Army Field Manual. Also, GM Rhee didn't seem to have any problems with competition under the WTF rules, because he was showing up to every USTU event that we had for a while there. We all saw him do his 100 push ups numerous times at USTU events. He also used to visit the kukkiwon since the earliest days.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Whether or not it is really taekwondo kind of depends on how you are using the term I suppose.  This has probably been asked of you before, and probably by me, but do you view taekwondo as more of an umbrella term or as a term for a specific art?




I view the term as being as inclusive as possible. But for TF, if he hates the direction that taekwondo is going, then he has an easy out, change the name to something more appropriate, like American Rearranged Shotokan Karate, which does rearranged shotokan karate forms and sparring which are much closer to shotokan sparring than the wtf rules. That way, no more conflict and no more reason or motivation to constantly criticize taekwondo.


----------



## mastercole

Daniel Sullivan said:


> There was an Elvis Presley album with a similar title.View attachment 16104



Got to love that golden suit. This could be the new Ameri-Do-Te 4th Dan Master uniform. (will we see it in a video soon?)

I'm trying to imagine what the "4th dan Master" belt would look like


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> I don't think anyone taught GM Rhee those Chang Hon tul. In fact, he told mastercole, myself and others at a USTU tournament that he learned those forms by himself through a copy of the ROK Army Field Manual.



I remember having a discussion on this board on whether General Choi was in my lineage or not.  I remarked at the time that General Choi was about as relevant on my TKD family tree as Funakoshi, Gichin Sensei, and that the Chung Do Kwan head (perhaps GM Son at the time?) was likely a much greater influence on GM Jhoon Rhee.

I don't really know what to think about General Choi after reading A Killing Art.  Certainly he is given a place of honor in most TKD dojang of the same lineage I am.



puunui said:


> Also, GM Rhee didn't seem to have any problems with competition under the WTF rules, because he was showing up to every USTU event that we had for a while there. We all saw him do his 100 push ups numerous times at USTU events. He also used to visit the kukkiwon since the earliest days.



He is a personable man or at least seemed to be when I met him as a young teenager for my chodan examination.  He was kind to me after the test and gave me a few words of encouragement to keep on working.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> I view the term as being as inclusive as possible.


So do you consider what TF does to be taekwondo?  If not, what is the point of delineation that makes something 'not taekwondo'?


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> Yes, I believe TF and I studied much the same TKD system.  It's the Jhoon Rhee/Allen Steen lineage in Texas which eventually evolved over the years adding Western boxing among other influences.  The lineage/style was quite famous during the Blood and Guts era of sport karate producing some noted practitioners like Pat Burleson (he was a Golden Gloves boxer so maybe the boxing came from him), Skipper Mullins, and Demetrius Havanas.  People have called it American *Tae Kwon Do* at times, following Jhoon Rhee's lead, and it has been affectionately nicknamed Tex Kwon Do, the name meant to convey more of a Lone Star flavor to it than really saying anything about a lack of kicking within it.  Though certainly, the method of kicking and training kicks is not the same seen currently with Olympic TKD athletes.
> 
> The forms used are the Chang Hon forms, though I've never encountered any school in the lineage that actually uses all of the Choi forms.  They seem to top out after 4-5 of the dan hyung and then supplement with some Japanese forms like Tekki, Bassai Dai, and Kanku Dai.  No sine wave as Jhoon Rhee learned the forms without characteristic ITF movement.



Interesting why it stops there.

As a side note: No one ever taught GM Jhoon Rhee the Oh Do Kwan hyung (chunji, etc) he learned them from a book.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

mastercole said:


> Got to love that golden suit. This could be the new Ameri-Do-Te 4th Dan Master uniform. (will we see it in a video soon?)
> 
> I'm trying to imagine what the "4th dan Master" belt would look like


Elvis was promoted to 7th dan by Kang Rhee if I recall and was an honorary 8th dan in Parker Kenpo. His grandmaster dobok looked like this:
View attachment $Elvis.jpg


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> I don't think anyone taught GM Rhee those Chang Hon tul. In fact, he told mastercole, myself and others at a USTU tournament that he learned those forms by himself through a copy of the ROK Army Field Manual. Also, GM Rhee didn't seem to have any problems with competition under the WTF rules, because he was showing up to every USTU event that we had for a while there. We all saw him do his 100 push ups numerous times at USTU events. He also used to visit the kukkiwon since the earliest days.



Yes, that was amazing hearing this first hand, he just opened up and started telling us all this history. I forgot about why we were there and just focused on what he was telling us.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> I view the term as being as inclusive as possible. But for TF, if he hates the direction that taekwondo is going, then he has an easy out, change the name to something more appropriate, like American Rearranged Shotokan Karate, which does rearranged shotokan karate forms and sparring which are much closer to shotokan sparring than the wtf rules. That way, no more conflict and no more reason or motivation to constantly criticize taekwondo.



American Rearranged Shotokan Karate.  It's catchy.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So do you consider what TF does to be taekwondo?  If not, what is the point of delineation that makes something 'not taekwondo'?



If you can trace your lineage to one of the five original kwan, then what you do, to me is taekwondo. We try to be inclusive as possible, and not exclude anyone, even TF.  However, if he wishes to exclude himself, then no one will stop him, certainly not me.


----------



## dancingalone

mastercole said:


> Interesting why it stops there.
> 
> As a side note: No one ever taught GM Jhoon Rhee the Oh Do Kwan hyung (chunji, etc) he learned them from a book.



I imagine no one ever learned the higher Chang Hon forms and so they were never passed on.  

Learning forms from a book...a time-honored tradition (see GM Hwang Kee as well).


----------



## mastercole

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Elvis was promoted to 7th dan by Kang Rhee if I recall and was an honorary 8th dan in Parker Kenpo. His grandmaster dobok looked like this:
> View attachment 16105



Perfect!  I'll wear this to the next Bud Lite Tae Kwon Do throw down hootenanny, anyone going?  I do a rearranged version of Koryo for the audience where I replace all them there flashy kicks with punches, lot's of punches. I'll punch to the East, I'll punch to West, hell's bells Ellie May I'll even punch the sky, and after a few Bud Lite's, I might even fight a Billy or two !


----------



## oftheherd1

puunui said:


> And when taekwondo keeps punches in, it gets accused of being a rip off of karate.



I just found this thread and it's the end of my work day so I'm not reading it all.  However, I am guessing you are referring to the sport side?  I only took TKD briefly some 45 years ago.  I never competed in a tournament as I didn't get above 8th Green.  Some of our people who did commented on the fact that the Karate folks were scoring points on them as we emphacized foot use.  The Karateist would close in and use their hands which we weren't so accumsomed to defending against in sparring.  They were winning.

There have been many changes in TKD from what I have seen.  More use of hands being one.  Well, why wouldn't you use your hands?  Who cares where it came from.  To me, there is nothing wrong with using (or borrowing) from another art, something that improves your own art.  I don't mean it should be changed completely but keeping your old name.  I mean just incorporating some things whicy improve the efficiency of the art overall.

TKD has begun to learn what some of the moves in forms are for, and they arn't always classical TKD.  But those who created the forms knew them apparently.  That has led to many places incorporating more such moves borrowed from Hapkido or Aikido, or wherever.  They may not work in sports, but why not teach them.  Properly done, some can be used in sport sparring as well.  It simply needs control which seems to be one of the things TKD has dropped.

Oh well, just my two cents, and remember, I am not a TKDist.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> If you can trace your lineage to one of the five original kwan, then what you do, to me is taekwondo. We try to be inclusive as possible, and not exclude anyone,


That includes technical variances, I assume.  Appreciate the answer.


----------



## Twin Fist

funny how you two guys are always around to vouch for whatever the other one has to say...

at any rate, I dont give a ****. You could be the same person for all i care. Maybe i will just call you two Vinegar and Water


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> Yes, that was amazing hearing this first hand, he just opened up and started telling us all this history. I forgot about why we were there and just focused on what he was telling us.




It was at some USTU event, probably JOs. I believe Master Garth Cooley was there too, with his eyes wide and his mouth open, listening to GM Rhee say what he said to us. It was a short conversation, while we were walking. All those seniors had awesome stories to tell. I can't remember if you were there when GM CHOI Tae Hong told us about his training in Japan with Sensei Mas Oyama, who I believe was a cousin of his. We bought lunch, he was sitting by himself and he asked us to join him at his table. Hang around the pioneers, and it's amazing what you can learn. Better than sitting behind a computer using google as your main research tool.


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> I imagine no one ever learned the higher Chang Hon forms and so they were never passed on.
> 
> Learning forms from a book...a time-honored tradition (see GM Hwang Kee as well).



I think GM Hwang had a burning desire to learn what he found in the Karate books. GM Rhee one the other hand said that in a letter that accompanied the ROK Army Field Manual, CHOI Hong Hi asked him to start using the name "Taekwondo" and start teaching the hyung's found in the manual. That was a directive from an ROK Army major-general to his ROK Army junior.  As a side note: I don't think GM Rhee felt he was somehow going to gain new knowledge by following this directive, I do think that GM Hwang was searching for knowledge in those Karate books.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

mastercole said:


> Perfect! I'll wear this to the next Bud Lite Tae Kwon Do throw down hootenanny, anyone going? I do a rearranged version of Koryo for the audience where I replace all them there flashy kicks with punches, lot's of punches. I'll punch to the East, I'll punch to West, hell's bells Ellie May I'll even punch the sky, and after a few Bud Lite's, I might even fight a Billy or two !


Nope.  Can't replace the kicks with punches.  Elvis could kick.  And when it comes to flashy, Elvis is its patron saint.

Intereting side note on musicians and kicking, one of my favorite musicians, Yngwie Malmsteen, frequently performs head level round house kicks while playing.


----------



## Twin Fist

this is exactly right

Allen Steen BTW beat Chuck Norris AND Joe Lewis in the same day to win Ed parker's international's in 64 i think (lemme guess, Vinigar and Water were there and were actually the coaches...../roll). 

Pat Burleson was the first national karate champion

the best all around fighter of the 80's Troy Dorsey is from this lineage as well. He held titles in kickboxing, boxing, and point fighting simultaniously.

Ray McCallum is from this lineage.

Korea was only the beginning of our art, we made it our own



dancingalone said:


> Yes, I believe TF and I studied much the same TKD system.  It's the Jhoon Rhee/Allen Steen lineage in Texas which eventually evolved over the years adding Western boxing among other influences.  The lineage/style was quite famous during the Blood and Guts era of sport karate producing some noted practitioners like Pat Burleson (he was a Golden Gloves boxer so maybe the boxing came from him), Skipper Mullins, and Demetrius Havanas.  People have called it American *Tae Kwon Do* at times, following Jhoon Rhee's lead, and it has been affectionately nicknamed Tex Kwon Do, the name meant to convey more of a Lone Star flavor to it than really saying anything about a lack of kicking within it.  Though certainly, the method of kicking and training kicks is not the same seen currently with Olympic TKD athletes.
> 
> The forms used are the Chang Hon forms, though I've never encountered any school in the lineage that actually uses all of the Choi forms.  They seem to top out after 4-5 of the dan hyung and then supplement with some Japanese forms like Tekki, Bassai Dai, and Kanku Dai.  No sine wave as Jhoon Rhee learned the forms without characteristic ITF movement.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> It was at some USTU event, probably JOs. I believe Master Garth Cooley was there too, with his eyes wide and his mouth open, listening to GM Rhee say what he said to us. It was a short conversation, while we were walking. All those seniors had awesome stories to tell. I can't remember if you were there when GM CHOI Tae Hong told us about his training in Japan with Sensei Mas Oyama, who I believe was a cousin of his. We bought lunch, he was sitting by himself and he asked us to join him at his table. Hang around the pioneers, and it's amazing what you can learn. Better than sitting behind a computer using google as your main research tool.



I remember other people being there with us, listening to GM Rhee, but I don't have a clear memory now of exactly who. For some reason I remember GM Joon Pyo Choi being there too, stand off to the side listening, but maybe not, maybe someone that reminds me of him.  I do remember talking to GM Choi about Jidokwan at different times, but I don't know if it was there, or if I was at the table, I might have been. I do remember that I either heard or maybe he told me he trained with Mas Oyama.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> Learning forms from a book...a time-honored tradition (see GM Hwang Kee as well).



If you are talking about GM Hwang learning from Funakoshi Sensei's book, that isn't entirely correct. GM Hwang learned the chung do kwan curriculum, at least part of it, from GM HYUN Jong Myung, a first generation student of GM LEE Won Kuk. GM Hyun and GM Hwang both worked at Seoul Station together.


----------



## mastercole

Speaking of tournament competition sport martial arts guys from an older time, I have see Allen Steen, Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Pat Burleson, Bill Wallace, Ernie Lieb and others fight in the ring, but I have only ever seen them fight against men.  Maybe there two different "blood and guts" lineages?


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> this is exactly right
> 
> Allen Steen BTW beat Chuck Norris AND Joe Lewis in the same day to win Ed parker's international's in 64 i think (lemme guess, Vinigar and Water were there and were actually the coaches...../roll).
> 
> Pat Burleson was the first national karate champion
> 
> the best all around fighter of the 80's Troy Dorsey is from this lineage as well. He held titles in kickboxing, boxing, and point fighting simultaniously.
> 
> Ray McCallum is from this lineage.
> 
> Korea was only the beginning of our art, we made it our own



We? 

But there you go again, more evidence that the name of your art is rightfully American Rearranged Shotokan Karate. All the gentlemen you mention above were karate champions, at karate tournaments.


----------



## Twin Fist

so John Chung, who won 1000's of forms titles at karate tournaments isnt a TKD BB?

i am sure he will be glad to know that......./roll

you are being obtuse, and it isnt helping your case


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> We?



LOL!  Who is "we"?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> so John Chung, who won 1000's of forms titles at karate tournaments isnt a TKD BB?
> 
> i am sure he will be glad to know that......./roll
> 
> you are being obtuse, and it isnt helping your case



There is plenty of obtuse going around. Maybe instead of returning obtuse with obtuse, we should simply respond politely and address the pertinent parts of the post.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> at any rate, I dont give a ****. You could be the same person for all i care.




no, mastercole and I are not the same person. we don't even look alike, and live in different parts of the country. there are enough people on MT that know both of us personally. In fact, next time you speak to GM Jhoon Rhee, you can ask him. He knows us both. mastercole saw GM Rhee more recently than I though, at a taekwondo function at the Korean Embassy in Washington DC last year. When was the last time you spoke with GM Rhee, if ever?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

mastercole said:


> LOL! Who is "we"?



Presumably he and those in his lineage who teach that system of taekwondo.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> so John Chung, who won 1000's of forms titles at karate tournaments isnt a TKD BB?



According to you, he probably is also a candidate for the American Rearranged Shotokan Karate name.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Really?  Do we really have to go down this road?


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> you are being obtuse, and it isnt helping your case



I think that you feel it is "obtuse" because we are approaching or have reached the point where it is difficult for you to understand and/or continue with the discussion. We can tell this because you don't really respond to the points made, but instead choose to make baseless accusations such as mastercole and I are the same person. I can appreciate the difficulty of your position, when the head of your lineage (GM Jhoon Rhee) shows his approval of kukki taekwondo and competition under the WTF Rules by attending USTU events as often as possible. He's not against it, but you are, so how do you work around that? Apparently the answer is to accuse mastercole and I of being the same person.


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> I do remember talking to GM Choi about Jidokwan at different times, but I don't know if it was there, or if I was at the table, I might have been. I do remember that I either heard or maybe he told me he trained with Mas Oyama.



I think you were there. It was at the 2000 Olympic Team Trials in Colorado Springs, when everyone got their pictures taken with members of the Olympic Team wearing their olympic warm ups.


----------



## Twin Fist

i dont think you are the same person.I do however think are both products of the same cult 

And Jhoon Rhee can do or not do whatever he wants to. We dont answer to him, we simply honor him as the origin of our system. But he is not the head of it, (we dont really have or need a head of system. That isnt the way it works in Texas)

His approval of the KKW, if in fact his does, (we just have your words for it, and thats of debatable value) doesnt effect me at all.

you are are being obtuse. And it isnt helping your cause. Instead of thinking you might have a point, now i think even if you cured cancer and solved for PI, i still wouldnt stop to speak to you on the street




puunui said:


> I think that you feel it is "obtuse" because we are approaching or have reached the point where it is difficult for you to understand and/or continue with the discussion. We can tell this because you don't really respond to the points made, but instead choose to make baseless accusations such as mastercole and I are the same person. I can appreciate the difficulty of your position, when the head of your lineage (GM Jhoon Rhee) shows his approval of kukki taekwondo and competition under the WTF Rules by attending USTU events as often as possible. He's not against it, but you are, so how do you work around that? Apparently the answer is to accuse mastercole and I of being the same person.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> i dont think you are the same person.I do however think are both products of the same cult



How so? No one tells us what to do or tries to control us in anyway. 




Twin Fist said:


> And Jhoon Rhee can do or not do whatever he wants to. We dont answer to him, we simply honor him as the origin of our system. But he is not the head of it, (we dont really have or need a head of system. That isnt the way it works in Texas)



Yeah, yeah, I figured that. You answer to no one but yourself.




Twin Fist said:


> His approval of the KKW, if in fact his does, (we just have your words for it, and thats of debatable value) doesnt effect me at all.



GM Jhoon Rhee does like to interact with and socialize with kukki taekwondo practitioners. He shows up to tournaments, he goes to kukki taekwondo functions at the Korean Embassy, and really does not put out any sort of negative vibe towards the kukkiwon or wtf. I have some old photos and articles of GM Rhee visiting the Kukkiwon, which I will try to post. That way it won't just be my words, even though i don't see anything from your side to dispute my words. As for him affecting you, how could he - you don't even know him.




Twin Fist said:


> you are are being obtuse. And it isnt helping your cause. Instead of thinking you might have a point, now i think even if you cured cancer and solved for PI, i still wouldnt stop to speak to you on the street



What is "solved for PI"? And there is a cure for cancer, or at least a way to prevent it; cancer cannot live in an alkaline environment. As for not stopping to speak to me on the street, no problem.


----------



## Twin Fist

Pi, the mathematical theoum that cannot be....skip it


never mind. Good bye Water


----------



## Sukerkin

What are you chaps arguing about?  Please don't tell me it's such ephemerals as unproven lineage? It's TKD for crying out loud; the whole art is based on a 'false' lineage i.e. it's karate in Korean clothes.  

Speaking entirely as an outsider with no experience at all in the art, arguing lineage in TKD is as purposeful as arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic as it sinks .

Now I have successfully offended every TKD practitioner here {:angel:} and hopefully garnered some attention, can I just suggest that this line of argument has reached the end of it's use?  Things can only get more unpleasant if they continue in this vein.


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> i still wouldnt stop to speak to you on the street



I think we already know that, it's something that would take balls


----------



## mastercole

Sukerkin said:


> What are you chaps arguing about?  Please don't tell me it's such ephemerals as unproven lineage? It's TKD for crying out loud; the whole art is based on a 'false' lineage i.e. it's karate in Korean clothes.
> 
> Speaking entirely as an outsider with no experience at all in the art, arguing lineage in TKD is as purposeful as arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic as it sinks .
> 
> Now I have successfully offended every TKD practitioner here {:angel:} and hopefully garnered some attention, can I just suggest that this line of argument has reached the end of it's use?  Things can only get more unpleasant if they continue in this vein.



Was this advise from a Jedi Knight?  Awesome, I really like the costume.

"Speaking entirely as an outsider with no experience at all in the art",  no really, feel free to tell us more about Taekwondo, considering you state you have no experience. If you have any Obi Wan Kenobi questions, feel free to ask us as well. I mean I often tell my doctor all about the latest medical break through and especially the background history behind he, he seems fascinated, I think?


----------



## Sukerkin

To misquote Aragorn from Lord of the Rings, that was *not* so courteous.  There is nothing to be gained by slamming two anvils together, good people.  If you cannot agree to see each others point of view, then just let each other be.


----------



## mastercole

Sukerkin said:


> To misquote Aragorn from Lord of the Rings, that was *not* so courteous.  There is nothing to be gained by slamming two anvils together, good people.  If you cannot agree to see each others point of view, then just let each other be.



The kettle calls the pot black


----------



## TKDinAK

Crazy reading the tit-for-tat in this thread... especially when another topic/thread was recently posted concerning conducting ourselves here as our tenets suggest we do.

That said... I belong to a couple of NFL forums... this stuff is calm and controlled in comparison.


----------



## mastercole

TKDinAK said:


> Crazy reading the tit-for-tat in this thread... especially when another topic/thread was recently posted concerning conducting ourselves here as our tenets suggest we do.
> 
> That said... I belong to a couple of NFL forums... this stuff is calm and controlled in comparison.



Another daddy jumps in to the fray. Maybe we need some holy men on this thread to point out a lack of morals as well.  Get real.


----------



## Sukerkin

That was a crossing of responses I am afraid, *mastercole*.  I was referring to your jibe at your disputant in post#290.

What I was attempting, using outrageous hyperbole to give perspective, is to nudge this thread to a close that does not involve further unpleasantness, that is all.  There is nothing to be gained from furthering the conflict of personalities that has been evident, so please allow things to die a natural death.

The next personal shot and implied threat gets kicked upstairs.

Mark A. Beardmore

MT Mentor


----------



## Steve

I'm not a holy man, but I did stay at a holiday inn.   God says, "be nice."  


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


----------



## TKDinAK

Daddy? Sorry, don't follow.

And I was simply pointing out an interesting comparison between two current threads... not suggesting something was right or wrong.


----------



## Twin Fist

yeah, thats CLASS right there.....

Have a nice night Vinegar



mastercole said:


> I think we already know that, it's something that would take balls


----------



## mastercole

Sukerkin said:


> That was a crossing of responses I am afraid, *mastercole*.  I was referring to your jibe at your disputant in post#290.
> 
> What I was attempting, using outrageous hyperbole to give perspective, is to nudge this thread to a close that does not involve further unpleasantness, that is all.  There is nothing to be gained from furthering the conflict of personalities that has been evident, so please allow things to die a natural death.
> 
> The next personal shot and implied threat gets kicked upstairs.
> 
> Mark A. Beardmore
> 
> MT Mentor



Then may I kindly suggest that the next time you must make such a suggestion, to a group of Taekwondo practitioners that you don't start it out with statements such as "It's TKD for crying out loud; the whole art is based on a 'false' lineage i.e. it's karate in Korean clothes."

Due to your statement "It's TKD for crying out loud; the whole art is based on a 'false' lineage i.e. it's karate in Korean clothes. ", I had mistaken you for a troll, not a kind adviser. 

Warmest Personal Regards

Al Cole


----------



## Twin Fist

mastercole said:


> Then may I kindly suggest that the next time you must make such a suggestion, to a group of Taekwondo practitioners that you don't start it out with statements such as "It's TKD for crying out loud; the whole art is based on a 'false' lineage i.e. it's karate in Korean clothes."
> 
> Due to your statement "It's TKD for crying out loud; the whole art is based on a 'false' lineage i.e. it's karate in Korean clothes. ", I had mistaken you for a troll, not a kind adviser.
> 
> Warmest Personal Regards
> 
> Al Cole




its true, the "official" history from the KKW is a pack of lies

and we proved it


----------



## Sukerkin

Humour is subjective, I do agree and there is a sad but inevitable tendency on the Net to not read all of a post and so the actual intent is lost.

Just have a care, correspondents, and don't get too carried away with your emotions.  The Study and it's sub-fora here allows for freer argumentation.  Elsewhere, abide by the rules you signed up to when it comes to courtesy and reasonable behaviour.


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> its true, the "official" history from the KKW is a pack of lies
> 
> and we proved it



You need to study more, John.   Example Sejong did not invent Hangul, scholars did, and they invented 28 characters, not 24.  Might have to go reprint the student handbook.


----------



## mastercole

Sukerkin said:


> Humour is subjective, I do agree and there is a sad but inevitable tendency on the Net to not read all of a post and so the actual intent is lost.
> 
> Just have a care, correspondents, and don't get too carried away with your emotions.  The Study and it's sub-fora here allows for freer argumentation.  Elsewhere, abide by the rules you signed up to when it comes to courtesy and reasonable behaviour.



Good advise, point taken.


----------



## Earl Weiss

mastercole said:


> You need to study more, John. Example Sejong did not invent Hangul, scholars did, and they invented 28 characters, not 24. Might have to go reprint the student handbook.



OK . Coilor me clueless and waiting for enlightenment. Why is this "Se Jong is named after the greatest Korean King, Se Jong, who invented the Korean alphabet in 1443, and was also a noted meteorologist. The digram represents the king, while the 24 movements refer to the 24 letters of the Korean alphabet."  (From Han Min Kyo's website) such a prevelant statement? Did he have any involvement with regard to the Korean "Alphabet" ?   I know that many of the "Histories" attributed to patterns are somewhat loose in their accuracy.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Here Wiki says he introduced Hangul and it was 28 letters>>>

See also: Hunmin Jeongeum and Hangul
King Sejong the Great profoundly impacted Korean history with his introduction of hangul, the native phonetic alphabet system for the Korean language.[SUP][14][/SUP]
Before the creation of Hangul, only members of the highest class were literate (hanja was typically used to write Korean by using adapted Chinese characters, while Hanmun was sometimes used to write court documents in classical Chinese). One would have to learn the quite complex hanja characters in order to read and write Korean. Further, despite modifications to the Chinese characters, hanja could prove cumbersome when transcribing the Korean language, due to considerable differences in grammar and sentence order.[SUP][15][/SUP]
King Sejong presided over the introduction of the 28-letter Korean alphabet, with the explicit goal being that Koreans from all classes would read and write. He also attempted to establish a cultural identity for his people through its unique script. While creating the alphabet, King Sejong encountered opposition of courtiers. First published in 1446, anyone could learn Hangul in a matter of days. Persons previously unfamiliar with Hangul can typically pronounce Korean script accurately after only a few hours study.
Each hangul letter is based on a simplified diagram of the patterns made by the mouth, tongue and teeth when making the sound related to the character. Morphemes are built by writing the characters in syllabic blocks. The blocks of letters are then strung together linearly.<<<

And here >>>

*Korean alphabet*, is the native alphabet of the Korean language. It is a separate script from Hanja, the logographic Chinese characters which are also sometimes used to write Korean. It was created in the mid-15th century, and is now the official script of both North Korea and South Korea and is co-official in the Yanbian Korean Autonomous Prefecture of Jilin Province, People's Republic of China.
Hangul is a true alphabet of 24 consonant and vowel letters<<<

24.... I am so confused.


----------



## puunui

Sukerkin said:


> What I was attempting, using outrageous hyperbole to give perspective, is to nudge this thread to a close that does not involve further unpleasantness, that is all.  There is nothing to be gained from furthering the conflict of personalities that has been evident, so please allow things to die a natural death.



It was over until you interjected your "false lineage" post at #279. Please check the post right before that one, #278. TF says "Good bye", which means it was over.


----------



## mastercole

Earl Weiss said:


> OK . Coilor me clueless and waiting for enlightenment. Why is this "Se Jong is named after the greatest Korean King, Se Jong, who invented the Korean alphabet in 1443, and was also a noted meteorologist. The digram represents the king, while the 24 movements refer to the 24 letters of the Korean alphabet."  (From Han Min Kyo's website) such a prevelant statement? Did he have any involvement with regard to the Korean "Alphabet" ?   I know that many of the "Histories" attributed to patterns are somewhat loose in their accuracy.



This is what I learned in Korea. King Sejong ordered that a group of scholars to create a reading and writing system that the common man could use. This group of scholars was titled the "jiphyeonjun."  They came up with 28 letters.


----------



## Kinghercules

I wouldnt say "ripped off".  If thats the case then karate is ripped off Kung-fu.
You had some Koreans that trained in Japan and went back to teach what they learned.
The same with the Japanese.  Some trained in China and went back to teach what they learned.
I dont see what the problem is.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kinghercules said:


> I wouldnt say "ripped off". If thats the case then karate is ripped off Kung-fu.
> You had some Koreans that trained in Japan and went back to teach what they learned.
> The same with the Japanese. Some trained in China and went back to teach what they learned.
> I dont see what the problem is.


There really isn't one, though there are those who insist that there is.  The lineage arguments are mostly academic.  It is the disagreement about where KKW/WTF taekwondo has gone since its creation that is at the core of this thread.  That and some perceived effect that it supposedly has on those outside of the KKW/WTF.


----------



## Earl Weiss

mastercole said:


> This is what I learned in Korea. King Sejong ordered that a group of scholars to create a reading and writing system that the common man could use. This group of scholars was titled the "jiphyeonjun." They came up with 28 letters.



OK, so if he ordered it done, got it done, decided to have it implemented, and then fostered it's implementation might he not be considered the "Founder"???


----------



## MSUTKD

The true sad state of affairs is conversations like this.  I really find it funny when people try to argue about history, lineage and authority.  All of these things are easily refuted and also easily proved.  

History is the distillation of rumor - Thomas Carlyle

What I can agree with is the passion of the individuals involved.  I do not think taekwondo can be defined by one particular line; that is what makes it such a wonderful art.  From a small country a few special individuals spread something that touched a lot of us and has shaped many lives, careers and dreams.

There is no original or traditional taekwondo, there is taekwondo.  Each lineage carries with it its own unique flavor, style and importance.  There is no sport or self-defense taekwondo, there is taekwondo.  How an individual wishes to use, practice or test ones skills is up to them, all can be effective.

Masters, Grandmasters, Ultimate GrandMasters.whatever.  If anyone expects you to revere them, without knowing them, red flag; real teachers do not need to ask for respect, they earn it with their actions, words and skills.  The most amazing Masters I have known are very quiet individuals who do not need words to convey their art; they show it.  The worst are ones who stand around talking and are rarely seen training on the mat; funny that these individuals all care about how high their rank is not how high their side kick is.

Put all of us in a room, without the internet, and we might see what is really there.  Hopefully it would be taekwondo.


----------



## mastercole

MSUTKD said:


> The true &#8220;sad state of affairs&#8221; is conversations like this.  I really find it funny when people try to argue about history, lineage and authority.  All of these things are easily refuted and also easily &#8220;proved&#8221;.
> 
> &#8220;History is the distillation of rumor&#8221; - Thomas Carlyle
> 
> What I can agree with is the passion of the individuals involved.  I do not think taekwondo can be defined by &#8220;one&#8221; particular line; that is what makes it such a wonderful art.  From a small country a few special individuals spread something that touched a lot of us and has shaped many lives, careers and dreams.
> 
> There is no &#8220;original&#8221; or &#8220;traditional&#8221; taekwondo, there is taekwondo.  Each lineage carries with it its own unique flavor, style and importance.  There is no &#8220;sport&#8221; or &#8220;self-defense&#8221; taekwondo, there is taekwondo.  How an individual wishes to use, practice or test ones skills is up to them, all can be effective.
> 
> Masters, Grandmasters, Ultimate GrandMasters&#8230;.whatever.  If anyone expects you to revere them, without knowing them, red flag; real teachers do not need to ask for respect, they earn it with their actions, words and skills.  The most amazing Masters I have known are very quiet individuals who do not need words to convey their art; they show it.  The worst are ones who stand around talking and are rarely seen training on the mat; funny that these individuals all care about how high their rank is not how high their side kick is.
> 
> Put all of us in a room, without the internet, and we might see what is really there.  Hopefully it would be taekwondo.



I agree with most of what you write here.  One thing does stands out to me though, and maybe your statement was not a blanket statement that applied to everyone, just certain ones. As far as physical training goes, I have seniors who produced and continue to produce excellent martial artist, institute programs to provide excellent training for others in marital arts, etc.  Some of the seniors are responsible for most of us even being involved in Taekwondo today. Some of them do not personally train anymore, some have not trained for 10 years, some for decades. Some have even retired from physical teaching long ago, but are still "full time" Taekwondoin. 

There are some though like GM PARK Hae Man whom several of us here have met and trained with, who still trains and travels the world to teach at his advanced age, and that is very impressive.  I have a friend who is five years younger that me, I'm 52, he does not train at all any more, ever. But he is a great teacher and has some really good black belts and boxing students.  He thought I was crazy for recently going off to Korea to be a participant in an intense physical Taekkyon training course. At the half way point of the course, in away, I agreed   He is very knowledgeable about what he does and can pass that on to students, even though he personally does not train.  I would never feel the need to ask him, or others who have made impressive achievements, produced excellent students (or fighters, competitors) to step up to the mat and prove anything.  Now if someone is making wild claims about their personal skill and comparing to others, I can certainly see telling them to prove it.


----------



## Earl Weiss

MSUTKD said:


> There is no &#8220;original&#8221; or &#8220;traditional&#8221; taekwondo, there is taekwondo. .



I reject your reality and substitute my own.


----------



## MSUTKD

Earl Weiss said:


> I reject your reality and substitute my own.



That is my point, lol.


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> I reject your reality and substitute my own.



In your reality, what is "original" or "traditional" taekwondo?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MSUTKD said:


> *There is no original *or traditional taekwondo, *there is taekwondo*. Each lineage carries with it its own unique flavor, style and importance. There is no sport or self-defense taekwondo, there is taekwondo. How an individual wishes to use, practice or test ones skills is up to them, all can be effective.


Well, I agree with you in spirit, but I would not have phrased it the way that you did.

There is an 'original' everything. There was an original car. Nobody drives it anymore because it either sits in a museum or has since been turned into scrap. 

Traditional taekwondo is a relative term. Traditional mens fashion has only been traditional since it replaced what came before it. At one time, it was the men who wore stockings and frilly sleeves and collars. Sure, its all mens fashion, but it isn't all the same. 

I'd say that 'traditional' taekwondo your' "_there is taekwondo_." So, traditionally, taekwondo has forms, breaking, and some type of contact sparring and 'traditional' schools utilize a group of similar core teaching methods mixed in with whatever they do and some level of Korean language and culture. The white dobok is pretty commonplace. This is what ties the different groups together while each group is also distinct from the others.

So traditional changes in one of the following ways: 

incrementally changes until it has changed so much that its current, normative form no longer resembles the formerly accepted traditional.
is replaced/radically changed by the progressive. If the progressive is accepted and adopted by the majority, it then becomes normative, and after about twenty years or so, what was once progressive has passed through the stage of being normative and becomes traditional.
Either way, things are changed and the new form becomes the traditional form.  Sometimes, there is enough of a support base for the older way of doing things that it is kept alive.  This is seen in black powder weapons, archery, sword arts, and also in things like Tang Soo Do, which to my knowledge, is essentially karate and has remained essentially what it was while Taekwondo, which was progressive in the unification effort, was developed and became something different.


----------



## mastercole

I agree with Master Southwick. I don't think he is saying there are no traditions, I think he is referring more to practitioners who try to divided Taekwondo by stating that what they do is so-called traditional Taekwondo, vs what others do. 

Taekwondo has been in a constant state of change from the date our seniors began using that name to this very day. I do not think Taekwondo training methods have remained "frozen" long enough to even be considered "traditional" at any point in time.  If so, what date?   1944, 1953, 1959, 1961, 1965, 1968, 1972, 1973, 1980, 1988, 1998, 2009, now?  When?

That said, I believe we do have some strong traditions, and some general traditions.  Strong traditions would be things like; constant improvement and change, reverence for seniors, strengthen character, self discovery, etc.    General traditions would be stuff like; the wearing of a training uniform and belt, we kick-punch-and move in defensive and offensive patterns, we have forms-sparring-breaking, we have competitions, we use some Korean terms, etc.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

mastercole said:


> I agree with Master Southwick. I don't think he is saying there are no traditions, I think he is referring more to practitioners who try to divided Taekwondo by stating that what they do is so-called traditional Taekwondo, vs what others do.
> 
> Taekwondo has been in a constant state of change from the date our seniors began using that name to this very day. I do not think Taekwondo training methods have remained "frozen" long enough to even be considered "traditional" at any point in time. If so, what date? 1944, 1953, 1959, 1961, 1965, 1968, 1972, 1973, 1980, 1988, 1998, 2009, now? When?
> 
> That said, I believe we do have some strong traditions, and some general traditions. Strong traditions would be things like; constant improvement and change, reverence for seniors, strengthen character, self discovery, etc. General traditions would be stuff like; the wearing of a training uniform and belt, we kick-punch-and move in defensive and offensive patterns, we have forms-sparring-breaking, we have competitions, we use some Korean terms, etc.


Agree, but you put it more succinctly than I.


----------



## mastercole

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Agree, but you put it more succinctly than I.



I think we said basically the same thing.


----------



## Earl Weiss

puunui said:


> In your reality, what is "original" or "traditional" taekwondo?



I am not smart enough to use those terms.


----------



## Twin Fist

Earl, i got the book. Thanks, it is interesting. Dont know all the terms it uses though


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> OK, so if he ordered it done, got it done, decided to have it implemented, and then fostered it's implementation might he not be considered the "Founder"???



I don't know. Do you think it is right that others did the work and then King Sejong takes the credit as if he did the work and created the hangul system?


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> I am not smart enough to use those terms.



So what did you mean by your "in my reality" comment then? I was trying to understand what you meant by that.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> Earl, i got the book. Thanks, it is interesting. Dont know all the terms it uses though



You are welcome. If you have any questions we can take it to private e-mail.


----------



## Earl Weiss

puunui said:


> I don't know. Do you think it is right that others did the work and then King Sejong takes the credit as if he did the work and created the hangul system?



I don't know if he "took' the credit. When it comes to "Pattern Histories" I think people need to apprediate that what is written is generaly the "Readers Didgest version". Another point about pattern history inaccuracies came to me while reading another book. I think it was "Shotokan Secrets". Anyway, the point made there was that in the culture (It seemed the bkk\ook referred to Japanese culture because it was about Shotokan) the point of a story was more important that the accuracy of the story. That lead me to appreciate that this concept might be spread thru other cutures as well and apply to things like the General Choi pattern histories.


----------



## Earl Weiss

puunui said:


> So what did you mean by your "in my reality" comment then? I was trying to understand what you meant by that.



IMNSHO the item quoted was overly broad in accepting what could be called TKD.  I think it basicaly allows anyone with aKorean lineage to kicking and punching to claim what they do is TKD.  I would not consider Tae Bo TKD. I think that some who rezected the name would be insulted to be referred to as TKD. 

Now, if your next question is how would I define it?  Perhaps one day I will have an answer. So far it's more along the line of what it's not, rather than what it is.  Or perhaps more along th line of differentiating  Tkd, Tk-D and T K D.


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> IMNSHO the item quoted was overly broad in accepting what could be called TKD.  I think it basicaly allows anyone with a Korean lineage to kicking and punching to claim what they do is TKD.  I would not consider Tae Bo TKD.



Not a lineage to kicking and punching, but rather to the original five kwan. 




Earl Weiss said:


> I think that some who rezected the name would be insulted to be referred to as TKD.



If people wish to reject the name taekwondo, then fine, that is their perogative. But considering everyone who can claim lineage to one of the five kwan as being a part of taekwondo is not the same thing as forcing someone to call their art taekwondo, especially if they have gone with another name. It is more a situation of leaving the door open, if they wish to come in. 




Earl Weiss said:


> Now, if your next question is how would I define it?  Perhaps one day I will have an answer. So far it's more along the line of what it's not, rather than what it is.  Or perhaps more along th line of differentiating  Tkd, Tk-D and T K D.



What is not taekwondo then, and how do you differentiate between tkd tk-d and t k d?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> What is not taekwondo then, and how do you differentiate between tkd tk-d and t k d?


Unless you're changing something in the source language, you don't.  

I can differentiate between Chang Hon taekwondo, Kukki taekwondo, Ho-Am taekwondo, and Songahm taekwondo, but since all three use identical Hanmoon and Hangeul, and since many schools from each organization use any one of the English language variations with regards to writing it together, with one space or with two spaces, and with or without hyphens, the English variations are meaningless with regards to practically distinguishing between the different organizations versions.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Daniel Sullivan said:


> the English variations are meaningless with regards to practically distinguishing between the different organizations versions.



I submit that it is not meaningless to the extent that certain groups seem to stipulate a particular romanization and from the General Choi system  perspective there was a reason for it. So, if a group that purports to follow General Choi's system uses something other than Tk-D at this pooint in time, they've screwed up.  (in the early days all sorts of stuff was out there.)

I am not a Kukki scholar and will defer to those who are. Somewhere in the cobwebs of my brain I thought I read that the designated romanization of KKW was Tkd and that they had a reason for it. I read it on the internet so it must be true


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## andyjeffries

Earl Weiss said:


> I am not a Kukki scholar and will defer to those who are. Somewhere in the cobwebs of my brain I thought I read that the designated romanization of KKW was Tkd and that they had a reason for it. I read it on the internet so it must be true



The WTF has certainly stated the correct written form is Taekwondo, I don't know about the Kukkiwon.  This is from the (old) quarterly WTF magazine, scanned and put online by mastercole:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/grandmastercole/6356271573/in/photostream


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## Daniel Sullivan

Earl Weiss said:


> I submit that it is not meaningless to the extent that certain groups seem to stipulate a particular romanization and from the General Choi system perspective there was a reason for it. So, if a group that purports to follow General Choi's system uses something other than Tk-D at this pooint in time, they've screwed up. (in the early days all sorts of stuff was out there.)
> 
> I am not a Kukki scholar and will defer to those who are. Somewhere in the cobwebs of my brain I thought I read that the designated romanization of KKW was Tkd and that they had a reason for it. I read it on the internet so it must be true


Well, I have never seen any sort of stipulation in the KKW textbook, but Tkd would make sense, given that taekwondo is one word.  But that wasn't what I was getting at.  

There are literally no fewer than fifty taekwondo schools in Montgomery County, and I'm pretty sure that none of them are ITF.  The only one that I know of that claimed to be of ITF lineage is Kang's Black Belt Academy, but when I directed someone there who was asking about ITF schools in Montgomery County, he went and said that they are not ITF, but WTF.  I talked to the owner, and got the impression that they are independent.

Anyway, of all of these non ITF schools, there is no consistency as to how they write taekwondo on their signage.  I have, in the state of Maryland, seen all of the following:

Taekwondo
Taekwon Do
Taekwon-Do
Tae Kwon Do
Tae-Kwon-Do
TKD
Tkd
T.K.D.
TK-D
T-K-D
So, from that signage, according to yourself and other ITF-ers, the second and third should be indicators that those are ITF schools, but they are not.  None of them are ITF.  But all of them are indicative of how westerners Romanize Asian words.  

My point wasn't that some ITF schools may have "screwed up," but that since the ITF schools are not the only ones writing it that way and since they are in the minority as far as percentage of TKD schools go, it is meaningless with regards to differentiating an ITF school from a non-ITF school.


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## Earl Weiss

Daniel Sullivan;My point wasn't that some ITF schools may have "screwed up said:
			
		

> Please do not misunderstand my point. If an ITF school uses something other than Tk-D, that school has screwed up. I did not mean to imply by extrapolation that if you saw Tk-D it would somehow assure you that it was an ITF school.


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## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> I submit that it is not meaningless to the extent that certain groups seem to stipulate a particular romanization and from the General Choi system  perspective there was a reason for it. So, if a group that purports to follow General Choi's system uses something other than Tk-D at this pooint in time, they've screwed up.  (in the early days all sorts of stuff was out there.)



What is the reason for the romanization Taekwon-Do by the ITF and/or General Choi?


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## Daniel Sullivan

Earl Weiss said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point wasn't that some ITF schools may have "screwed up," but that since the ITF schools are not the only ones writing it that way and since they are in the minority as far as percentage of TKD schools go, it is meaningless with regards to differentiating an ITF school from a non-ITF school.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please do not misunderstand my point. If an ITF school uses something other than Tk-D, that school has screwed up. I did not mean to imply by extrapolation that if you saw Tk-D it would somehow assure you that it was an ITF school.
Click to expand...

Ah!  Got ya.


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