# Defense against stick, knife, or gun for a novice?



## Makalakumu (Jan 7, 2005)

I am interested in hearing what people would have to say regarding a general streetwise tactical empty hand defense against...

1.  The Knife
2.  The Stick
3.  The Gun

What would you generally tell someone with little or no martial arts training?  What would you generally tell someone with more extensive training?

upnorthkyosa


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## terryl965 (Jan 7, 2005)

No training walk away, alot of training walk away. If you can't walk away and you have training kick some butt, if no training do you best to get away from that senario.


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## OUMoose (Jan 7, 2005)

*1. The Knife*
It is a short range weapon, and generally inaccurate if thrown.  Run.

*2. The Stick*
It is a medium range weapon, and is definitely inaccurate if thrown.  Run.

*3. The Gun*
Run in a zig-zag pattern....   (Sorry... couldn't resist)

ehem.

It is a firearm.  Run, and put as much stuff between you and the gunman as possible.


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## Spud (Jan 7, 2005)

Right on terryl965

 When I first started training in Martial Arts my very seasoned and wise instructor would start the class with _self defense move number one_ - we would start running.

 Doesn't sound that sexy, but very practical....


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## Makalakumu (Jan 7, 2005)

Foot-Jutsu is pretty much what I thought, but I wanted to hear what others thought.


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## bignick (Jan 7, 2005)

Can't remember the stats, but the chance of being shot are very, very low.  And the chances of actually being hit in something vital are even less.


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## OUMoose (Jan 7, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> Can't remember the stats, but the chance of being shot are very, very low.  And the chances of actually being hit in something vital are even less.


We should hang out then, on the off chance we'd ever come face to face with a gunman... I'll run, and you can take your chances.


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## loki09789 (Jan 7, 2005)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> *1. The Knife*
> It is a short range weapon, and generally inaccurate if thrown. Run.
> 
> *2. The Stick*
> ...


1.  I would add to that throwing and dropping obstacles behind you to slow them down.

2.  Same add on.

3.  Same add on.  I would say a working knowledge of the difference between 'cover' and 'concealment' is helpful.

Cover - something that will stop a bullet.
Concealment - something that will obscure/hide you from a shooter's sight BUT may not stop a bullet.

Not all concealment is cover and not all cover is concealment (though the majority of it will be).

It is a gamble, but generally speaking, you will find (according to stats/interviews/accounts compiled) 'street shooters' are not very well trained/accurate with firearms.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 7, 2005)

For unarmed people, (especially those who feel the need to even ask this question) OUMoose's first post is the correct & humorous answer. My answer would be to pull my liscenced concealed carry pistol and if it were a knife/stick/tire iron, etc.. and they were:


1) within 21 feet, probably draw and shoot as they approached

2) More than 21 feet, stand my ground and see if they did attack and get within legal-shoot distance

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If they draw and point a firearm at me or any known innocent person, I'm going to immediately place some serious high velocity hollowpoints in the right places, as fast as I can, just like the Gingerbread Man  

Bad guys should not play with guns/knives and people's safety if they no wanna get shot.


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## bart (Jan 7, 2005)

> I am interested in hearing what people would have to say regarding a general streetwise tactical empty hand defense against...
> 
> 1. The Knife
> 2. The Stick
> ...





Defense against weapons is really tricky. Running is probably the best option, but there are some circumstances in which fleeing is not an option such as when you would be leaving your children or spouse to die alone, your back is to a wall, etc. So I'm going to restrict my answers to those scenarios wherein fleeing is not an option.


1. The Knife

If you find yourself wrestling with someone and they produce a knife the best option is to control the knife arm above everything else. For novices I would suggest simply holding on to the knife arm and keeping it away from your vitals while trying to use your feet, head, and body to do damage on the other person. For the experienced I would say do what comes naturally, but pay special attention to controlling the weapon arm. A punch or kick from the empty side could hurt you, but the knife can kill you right away. 

If you find yourself in a medium or long range situation find something to throw or find a longer but still light weapon like a stick, rake, or bat and try to hit them with it while maintaining distance.  There are rocks, cans, gravel, dirt, etc. that can be used to incapacitate the threat while maintaining distance. For novices I would say do not close on the person and try to grapple. Keep the distance and try to find a way out. For the more experienced, again I would say do what comes naturally, but keep a special eye out for the knife arm. Again, a punch or kick from the empty side could hurt you, but the knife can kill you right away. 

2. The Stick

Because the weapon is blunt it changes the dynamic a little bit. Because its damage is dependent upon its ability to impact then primarily you want to avoid impact. 

If you find yourself wrestling with someone who has a stick again it's important to control the weapon arm but you can do that by covering and jamming with much less risk as compared to a blade. That gives you more freedom to work with your hands. For novices I would say that you should stay close if you find yourself close quarters to begin with until you find a chance to get out into long range. Avoid the middle range because that is where the most damage can be done to you. 

For the more experienced I would say you have to weigh in your own skills. Some practitioners are very good at the empty hand game but they can't apply those skills to a person wielding a weapon. If you have little experience with weapons then I would follow the same path as laid out for the novice. Control the weapon arm and hit them as much as possible. Stay close until you have a chance to get out to long range and then stay there. Avoid the middle range as much as possible because that is where the most damage can be done to you. If you have experience with weapons then you'll be able to work in the middle range and close ranges better. So do what comes naturally. 

If you find yourself in middle range to begin with then since you have no weapon yourself and can't flee, then I would close in on the opponent and follow the above advice. 

3. The Gun

This is a tricky one. If you find yourself at close range then you have a chance. Try to control the weapon like an ice pick and never let the point be directed at you or anyone that you're trying to defend. Go for the ability to see and breathe or even the ability to flex the fingers. For novices just keep the muzzle away from you and be prepared to take a lot of damage and give damage when you can. But never let go of that weapon. For the more experienced, again do what comes naturally, but never let go of the weapon or let it point at you. 

If you're at long range you have two choices: keep moving and try to close in or keep moving until you can escape. The trick here is to be a hard target. 

Either way your mindset when wrestling with someone who has a gun is that you have to do whatever you need to in order to keep the muzzle away from you. That means if you need to break your face on his then that's what you need to do. It's better to live through a painful recovery than to die. 


4. All weapons.

The thing in common when facing someone who is wielding a weapon is that you have to be ready to deal and accept pain, sacrifice, and damage. Defending against a weapon wielding opponent is almost always a case of damage control. It's true that the skillful and the lucky can get through a weapon fight unscathed, I've seen it happen and experienced it myself. But most of the time, both sides are going to get hurt and it's going to be a struggle to see who gets hurt less. You have to be comfortable with the idea of hurting someone badly in order to save your skin. Also you have to keep things simple. If you have complex techniques then you're going to get frozen and eat something from the business end of the weapon. 

Dealing with someone who knows how to manipulate a weapon is something else. Between equally skillful opponents an armed one will almost always beat down an unarmed one. When you try to seek out how to defend against melee weapons it's always best to make sure that you are learning from someone that actually knows how to manipulate the weapon. Otherwise you're not going to train anything but misconception. 


Just my thoughts.


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## still learning (Jan 9, 2005)

Hello, I agree with everyone one about running away for all three. We practice several defense moves with a rubber knife,and almost all the time we end up getting cut. Imagine in real time with the adrenline kicks in, will we be able to save our bodies?

 If no choice try to control the knife hand with both your hands and use your head and legs to fight back, one choice. ........Aloha


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## dubljay (Jan 9, 2005)

Like everyone says, get out of there.  IMO, and I got this from my instructor, when you are in a fist fight, no weapons, the intent is _usually_ just bodily injury, not necessarily to kill you.  When your opponent goes for a weapon of ANY kind be it a stick, a gun, a knife, a brick, it doesn't matter the intent has changed from injuring you to _KILLING_ you.  Granted its really a generalization, but in my mind a fair one.  In one sense in the attackers mind they no longer see you as a person, so killing you is no different than putting down a sick dog. Again this is just a generalization.  I feel that a change in psychology of the attacker is important to consider when training.  There are three things I have been trained to do when confronted with any weapon.

 In order of priority
 1st: GET OUT OF THE WAY!  Get out of the line of attack, obvious, but it is there to remind you to get all of your body out of the line of attack, not just your head and body. (i.e. stick coming over the head, you may side step protecting your head and shoulders, but you may leave your knee exposed, and if its a bat... goodbye knee) 
 2nd: CONTROL THE WEAPON! Not just the hand that holds it, but the weapon itself especially if its a firearm.  Get your finger behind the trigger, in between the hammer and the firing pin (for guns with exposed hammers).
 3rd: TAKE THE WEAPON!  After you have managed to subdue your attacker dont leave the weapon easily accessible to them, just because they look unconscious doesnt mean they are.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 10, 2005)

bart said:
			
		

> Defense against weapons is really tricky. Running is probably the best option, but there are some circumstances in which fleeing is not an option such as when you would be leaving your children or spouse to die alone, your back is to a wall, etc. So I'm going to restrict my answers to those scenarios wherein fleeing is not an option.
> 
> 
> 1. The Knife
> ...




Aww c'mon Bart... you take all the fun outta running...  (just kidding). 
Those are good points and helpful to the inexperienced and non-ma. 
But, I remember the first time someone pulled a gun on me and stuck it in my face.... I froze.  It was the first and last time anyone had done that because henceforth I didn't allow it to happen... upped my awareness training and learned to *W-A-T-C-H* people and what their hands are doing.
Unless you know exactly what you're doing, trying to gain control of the offensive weapon while you're on the defensive and scared and just plain outta your mind with the desperation not-to-get-hurt, is not a great thing to do.  There are way too many variables for the average non-combatant to deal with if they don't have the training/experience. 
If there is no alternative and you don't have defensive anti-weapons training/experience... Back away from the weapon in hand and if you know for sure postive it's a threat to you... Run! The guy might be just trying to rob you and you end up dead and the guy is in jail for unintentional homicide, because you (with no experience/training) tried to control the weapon in question. 
Unless you have the skills to deal with an offensive weapon situation, you _cannot_ know the intent of a stranger walking up to you carrying a weapon, but it's safe to presume the worse. Don't panic (running is not panicking), we know that panicking only releases (our) control of the situation to the other person. 
The saying goes: "The best defense is a good offense." This is true and IMO the key offensive weapon is awareness. Surroundings, the people, circumstances/situation, intuitiveness (based on experiences) and our base gut instinct for survival, which sadly too many people ignore until it's too late. Out on a first date, walking out of the bar/nightclub with this great person you just met having a great time and not paying attention to anything else but that person... You set yourself up.  But being smart and staying calm are among the first things that come into play when the situation/circumstances goes to yellow alert. Remaining that way helps prevent the elevation or at least slows down the rise of the alert status.

One of the scariest things is that I've found is that no-one person can precisely predict what they or another can/will do in any given situation.  Reaction, non-reaction, panic, calm the list goes on.  Training helps a lot. The more you get the better/higher your chances of dealing with it in a way that you go home to bed that night.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 6, 2005)

1. The Knife-get a weapon-anything.

2. The Stick-get a bigger one.

3. The Gun-get out your wallet and plea for mercy.

In all, do not get into that predicament in the first place.

We have some unique traning methods for each.

And with all three, even at being prepared, things went wrong. Some tactics are 50/50. Less on the gun.


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