# Broadsword form



## Croxley (May 4, 2005)

We're starting the broadsword form tonight- quite looking forward to something new. (We've almost finished the straightsword form, and will be doing both for a while in alternate lessons.)


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## Dronak (May 4, 2005)

Interesting.  I think I've heard about a straight sword form, but I can't remember hearing about a broadsword form.  What style of tai chi are you learning?


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## dmax999 (May 4, 2005)

Tai Chi also has staff and spear forms as well, but difficult to find anyone who knows them though.  Straight sword is a fairly recent addition from my understanding, but all the weapons may be recent additions for all I know.

Straight sword, broadsword, staff, and spear are the four "traditional" weapons in Yang style.  I've only seen straight sword and broad sword in person and have one short clip with spear.  Never seen staff, but have had it reccommended for learning fa-jing better.


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## Hammer Head (May 4, 2005)

Yes, Dronak, there are broadform forms in taiji. You will find them in Chen Style and in Yang style. By the way, I recently discovered a site with chinese martial arts dvds and vcds at ridiculous prices. There you will find taiji broadsword forms.

www.plumpub.com


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## Dronak (May 4, 2005)

Now that I'm looking for a little more info, I remembered that the YMAA was publishing some books and/or videos on Yang tai chi weapons.  I believe that straight sword is covered in a book and a video and broadsword is covered only in a video right now.  Most of what I've heard about has been for straight sword which is probably why I didn't remember hearing about broadsword.  I don't think they have anything on staff and spear, but I don't think full forms survived to the present.  According to Yang Jwing-Ming's book Taijiquan, Classical Yang Style, no full, traditional staff or spear forms exist anymore.  Sword and broadsword (saber) do have forms.  I think I've seen some video clips of Chen style spear, but I don't remember.  From what I read (this book and/or others), it seems that tai chi weapons were used, but didn't reach the same kind of prominence as say Shaolin kung fu weapons.  I think one of the books I have gave a list of reasons why tai chi weapons weren't so big.  I don't have any books or videos specifically on tai chi weapons, but maybe some day I'll be able to get some.

The Plum Publications site does look like it has a lot of VCDs and DVDs at reasonable prices.  I'll bookmark the site for future reference.


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## j_m (May 5, 2005)

The family/style of taijiquan that my teacher teaches includes the sword, sabre, staff, and even double sticks.  Not to mention the emptyhand "fast" sets/forms that are taught.  Very nice stuff :supcool:   I don't practice this (it is not my area of study) but it is an extremely effective fighting art as I can attest to... often being on the recieving end 


I have ordered quite a few things from Plum Publishing.  They are first rate, fast, and extremely gracious.  I *highly* recommend them.


jm


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## Dronak (May 5, 2005)

Double sticks?  I don't think I've even heard about that for tai chi.  The Yang style information I have mentions training with ball and ruler which I found unusual.  But like I said, I don't think tai chi was especially big on weapons.  What family/style do you do, j_m?

And since you've ordered some things from Plum Publishing, can you tell me what region (if any) their DVDs are?  I couldn't seem to find DVD region info when I skimmed the site.  They do have some interesting stuff and the tai chi info might be good.  For kung fu stuff, I'm not sure if what they have is of the same style I was learning, so I'd either have to pass or just take a chance.  The VCDs are cheaper, but most don't have English so it might be hard to understand exactly what's going on in them.  Well, I can't afford to buy anything right now anyway, but maybe in the future.


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## dmax999 (May 5, 2005)

Be careful about some stuff too.  I have seen a video on Tai Chi numchucks.  Don't think that is legit at all, but if it follows Tai Chi principles correctly it still might be good (You just won't see me practicing it is all).

Have to remember that some "mortal man" made all these forms, they were not handed down on stone tablets or anything.  Point being that the person who made the forms we practice now may not have known that much, and other new forms may be better for practice.  I'm not one for "just cause its so old no one knows where it came from so it must be good".  We have a really short 18 move Yang form that is great for trying new ways of moving through some of the postures quickly and I'm positive it is only a few decades old at the most.

In addition, the really old method of teaching Tai Chi (pre-Yang offshoot) didn't include forms at all, they were added in later.

Previous comment about staff and spear form being "lost" may be reason I could never find them myself.  I've only seen them mentioned in old books.


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## Dronak (May 5, 2005)

dmax999 said:
			
		

> Point being that the person who made the forms we practice now may not have known that much, and other new forms may be better for practice.



That's possible and you're right that not everything that's old is good simply because it's old.  But also keep in mind that with time comes revisions and improvements.  The older, more traditional forms have had centuries of time for many generations of practicioners to study them and for masters of the art to improve them.  A form that may not have started out good would have become good if artists saw potential and modified and improved it over time.  While newer forms might still be good, they haven't gone through that same kind of peer review process or had much time to be refined towards perfection.

I wouldn't mind hearing more about tai chi weapons here, if it's not too much of a side-track from the original point.  I don't have books specifically on weapons, but some mention them.  I've found some videos and info on the web, but would be happy to hear about more.  I know there are books and/or videos I could buy, but I can't afford to.  So free information is good, if you know of some sources.


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## dmax999 (May 6, 2005)

Dronak,

You do have a point about the forms being refined and improved.  For example William CC Chen has his own 60 movement form, which is very similar to the traditional Yang long form with movements he thought unneccessary removed, and most other movements slightly modified.  I forget the name of the Yang practicioner that originally made the long form, but he claimed it was as short as possible with all aspects of Tai Chi still included (Bad with Chinese names).

Point being, two undisputable masters of Yang Tai Chi have different views on the minimum required to be in the basic form.  You can decide on which one is more right for you, or learn both.

Nice thing about Tai Chi though, you can trace who developed each form and usually find a reason they created the form (Chen style may be exception, don't know much about it).  Most other Kung-Fu the form is part of the style and you may never know who created it or why.  Lets you decided who really knows what they are doing in Tai Chi and if you want to follow them, or think they are wrong and don't.


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## Dronak (May 7, 2005)

I don't think I've heard about William CC Chen's form, but I see your point.  Different people who have practiced for a very long time and studied the art in depth can end up with differing views.  As for the Yang family practicioners, I believe it was Yang Luchan who first developed the Yang style from the Chen style, but I think the currently popular version of the form is the one as done by one of his grandsons, Yang Chenfu.


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## fyn5000 (May 14, 2005)

It was Cheng Man-ch'ing who created the 37 Postures form from Yang Cheng-Fu's long form.  Yang Cheng-Fu was Cheng Man-ch'ing's teacher.  Master William Chen was a student of Cheng Man-ch'ing and learned the 37 Postures and the long form from him.  Chen later created his 60 Movements form from the 37 Postures form by removing some of the repeated movements in it and replacing them with movements form the long form.  I read this in William Chen's book, "Body Mechanics of T'ai Chi Ch'uan", and heard it from him at one of his workshops.

fyn


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## East Winds (May 23, 2005)

The Yang Family Broadsword form (and Straight Sword form) can be found on a DVD produced by Eastern Wave Productions. It features Yang Zhen Duo (the 3rd son of Yang Cheng-fu) and his Grandson Yang Jun. 

Incidentally, the form by Cheng Man-ching and William CC Chen bears little resemblance to Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan. The form was chnaged so much by both that it should not be called "Yang" style. 

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland


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## Randy Strausbaugh (May 23, 2005)

East Winds said:
			
		

> Incidentally, the form by Cheng Man-ching and William CC Chen bears little resemblance to Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan. The form was chnaged so much by both that it should not be called "Yang" style.


They usually are not.  Typically they will be referred to as the Cheng Man-ching and William C.C. Chen forms, respectively.  Any reference to either as the "Yang Short Form" is a misnomer.  They were developed from the Yang style, but (as stated) have significant differences.


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## 47MartialMan (May 23, 2005)

Dronak said:
			
		

> Double sticks? I don't think I've even heard about that for tai chi. The Yang style information I have mentions training with ball and ruler which I found unusual.


I have seen the ball form used.

I have seen a pole form also.

But I have nevered seen double sticks or nunchakus used in this manner.


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## j_m (May 25, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> But I have nevered seen double sticks or nunchakus used in this manner.


I'm not surprised.


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## 47MartialMan (May 25, 2005)

j_m said:
			
		

> I'm not surprised.


Meaning they are not? Or meaning that I have limited observance?


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## East Winds (May 25, 2005)

47MartialMan

Taiji Ball training is not common, but an essential part of Taiji training. I came accross it first when learning Liu Ho Pa Fa (Water Boxing, considered by some, to be the ultimate internal art). I also practise Tai Chi Ruler (Tai Chi Ch'i) a superb art on its own and another essential to train the internal aspect of Taijiquan.

Best wishes

Alistair Sutherland


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## 47MartialMan (May 25, 2005)

East Winds said:
			
		

> 47MartialMan
> 
> Taiji Ball training is not common, but an essential part of Taiji training. I came accross it first when learning Liu Ho Pa Fa (Water Boxing, considered by some, to be the ultimate internal art). I also practise Tai Chi Ruler (Tai Chi Ch'i) a superb art on its own and another essential to train the internal aspect of Taijiquan.
> 
> ...


I knew about/seen it, but thought most advanced Taij people did it.

I am unfamiliar with "Water Boxing".

I never saw advanced Taiji use nunchakus or duel sticks.


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## clfsean (May 26, 2005)

Dronak said:
			
		

> Double sticks? I don't think I've even heard about that for tai chi. The Yang style information I have mentions training with ball and ruler which I found unusual. But like I said, I don't think tai chi was especially big on weapons.


Double maces (sticks)... Chen Taiji. 

Chen Taiji has a full complement of long, short & double weapons. It's a pretty well rounded CMA. 

They use (that I've seen either on video or in person) ... 
Broadsword
Double Broadsword
Straight Sword
Double Straight Sword
Halberd
Spear 
Stick
Double Short Stick

... and in the old gym in Chen Village, there was a pair of hooks on the rack as well...


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## East Winds (May 26, 2005)

47martial man,

I agree with you about the nunchakus. They have no place in Taiji training. Although a group here in the UK (Lee Family Arts) claim to teach this art as part of their Taiji programme. Just about sums up their Taiji training programme!!

Regards

Alistair Sutherland.


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## Isrephael (May 26, 2005)

Excellent.  I'm working on the Chen Dao Form right now myself.  Which one will you be training in, exactly?


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## East Winds (May 26, 2005)

I play Traditional Yang Family 13 posture Sabre form. Interestingly enough, the Yang Family use the Southern Sabre rather than the traditional Broadsword.

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland


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## Dronak (May 28, 2005)

Ah.  I'm not very familiar with Chen style, so it's no wonder I hadn't heard about it.  Maybe some day I'll have the time, money, and/or whatever else to study it.  It would be interesting to learn the different styles.  I'd probably stick with basic barehand forms though.

Aside:  I know it's in pretty common use, but I really don't like that "play taiji" phrase/concept because of what "play" implies.  I prefer to use "practice" or "study" or something like that.  But that's just me.


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## clfsean (May 28, 2005)

Chen's considered the oldest of the Taiji families.

Why worry about play?? That what the Chinese use... play. It doesn't imply anything negative.


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## Dronak (May 28, 2005)

Yes, I've read about the basic history of tai chi and know that Chen is generally considered the oldest style.  "Hadn't heard about it" meant the weapons in the style, not the style as a whole.

I didn't say "play" was necessarily negative, but the first thing it suggests to me is "games".  That's why I don't like using it for a MA which people can seriously study and practice for a lifetime.  Besides, you don't play karate or TKD or any other MA, do you?  Why just tai chi?  *shrug*  It's not a major worry.  I was just saying that I don't like the phrase and don't use it myself, that's all.


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## East Winds (Jun 8, 2005)

Dronak,

I have no problem with your objection to "play" and can fully understand your reticence to use it. My own Master (Chinese) always used the word "play" and I have also continued to use it ever since.

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland


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