# Pressure Points



## Rob Broad (Aug 12, 2004)

I have been asked by a couple people to post here on MT all the Pressure Points and their merridians as I did on forum that I helped run for a couple years.  I will leave it up to you members whether or not I do so.  If you are for or against it please let us know why.


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## Rob Broad (Aug 12, 2004)

I am seeing people answering the the poll, but no one is giving any reasons.


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## bignick (Aug 12, 2004)

i don't see why not...if you've already done it at another board...and there's not a whole lot you can do from just reading...


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## Rob Broad (Aug 12, 2004)

The reason I am asking about it here, is because when I did it last time it took over 300 posts to do so, and I ws also told by several people that it was irresponsible of me to post them.  That ended up causing a very large squabble which I owuld like to avoid this time.  A couple people have asked me to post them here since they no longer go to that forum.


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## shesulsa (Aug 13, 2004)

I'm undecided.  Lack of education and use of these points combined can do harm rather than good.  On the other hand, others might be interested and begin researching accupuncture and accupressure for healing purposes.

 Tough call.  No vote from me, sorry.


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## bignick (Aug 13, 2004)

well, i thinks it your call really...i do understand the chance of someone irresponsible using pressure point information...do what you want...i don't think anybody is gonna complain about all the posts as long as it's good information...as for whether some may think it's irresponisble...i can't answer


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## loki09789 (Aug 13, 2004)

Posting technically specific information about Pressure points isn't any less responsible than posting the same thing about knife/sword/stick or empty hand techniques.

Besides, there are so many books out there with picture references or videos with moving demonstrations that are easily accessible that posting it isn't really that big a deal IMO.

Recommendations about how to safely practice them or how to 'resucitate' the area if you screw your self up would go a long way to responsible posting though.  It really is up to you, just remember the fun term 'collateral liability' though.


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## ppko (Aug 13, 2004)

Here is the thing the only way people could effectively use the pressure points is by knowing the correct angle and direction, and knowing what are hit points,rub, and touch.  It is to hard to learn from a book let alone a forum if anyone wants to do pressure points than it would help them if they went to a qualified Martial Artist that know and teaches them.  I believe that you should post the points, just to show where they are


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## Flatlander (Aug 13, 2004)

Well, I voted no, don't post them, but then I read the subsequent responses, and have decided maybe it wouldn't be too bad.  Guess I'm a flip flopper. :idunno: :rofl:


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## mj-hi-yah (Aug 13, 2004)

I think the purpose of a forum is information exchange. You can tell me specifically how to do anything in martial arts but it is never the same as learning it from, or practicing it with, someone who knows and can show me from experience. Reading about something gives you a basis to then take it further with an experienced instructor. It gives you a foundation from which to formulate questions to pursue with your instructor as well. At the very least, I say print the points themselves. :asian:


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 13, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Posting technically specific information about Pressure points isn't any less responsible than posting the same thing about knife/sword/stick or empty hand techniques.
> 
> Besides, there are so many books out there with picture references or videos with moving demonstrations that are easily accessible that posting it isn't really that big a deal IMO.
> 
> Recommendations about how to safely practice them or how to 'resucitate' the area if you screw your self up would go a long way to responsible posting though. It really is up to you, just remember the fun term 'collateral liability' though.


I agree.  I would also like to add that I don't feel you are presenting a complete explanation without the recommendations suggested by Paul (highlighted above.)  However, since you have attained a great deal of knoweldge and, having read some of your other work, I think you will be benefiting all of us by sharing some of this.

Like anything else in ma, it requires time and practice to attain any proficiency.  Also, since we, as martial artists, are bound ethically to use our knowledge in a positive manner in our lives and how it affects others, I don't see where posting this information within those parameters would be less than beneficial.  KT


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## Enson (Aug 13, 2004)

i say post them. why not? isn't the reason for martial talk to discuss such matters? post away!


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## Rick Wade (Aug 13, 2004)

I would love to have a large chart with all of the PP and meridians.  My instructor hit me in my lung meridian last monday and I am still feeling the effects.  

V/R
Rick


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## psi_radar (Aug 13, 2004)

It'd be great to have all that information posted in one place. As for irresponsible use, safe martial arts is all about responsibility and good judgement, right? As Loki said, perhaps some recovery information would be helpful. Do you plan to post the proper angle, type of hit, etc. appropriate for each point as well?


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## Rob Broad (Aug 13, 2004)

So far the tally is 16 - 1 - 1.  I will let the poll end and if the majority is in favor of the info I will start the long process of posting all the points in their respective merridians.  I will also try to put the charts on in the first post for each merridian.


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## Baytor (Aug 13, 2004)

I say go ahead and post them.  This is a place for martial discusion, after all.  Besides, if someone is looking for a "magic bullet" technique, they probably won't go through the trouble of finding it here.  They would look for Ashida Kim and learn the secrets of hypnotic ninja death seduction bad touch.:lol:


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## jlintz (Aug 13, 2004)

would it be easier if you took all your information and placed it on the webpage instead of posts here?  Might be more easier to read visually?


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## Rob Broad (Aug 13, 2004)

Last time I just started a thread under the name of the merridain and then replied to it for every different point.  That way the person has a simple string of posts concerning that particular merridian.


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## jlintz (Aug 13, 2004)

cool sounds good. cant wait to see them start appearing!


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## nlmantis (Aug 13, 2004)

"The secret in martial arts is that there are no secrets" (-- no idea who this came from originally)

Anyhow the pressure-points can be found documented in many places, this site would be a good place also. A webpage would definitely be preferred to post, I would imagine.

Love, Peace, Harmony.

--
Bob.


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## Rob Broad (Aug 13, 2004)

I prefer to keep things in one place.  It is a pet peeve of mine to send peopel away from MT to another website when they are looking for something.  I also admit I am not the best at creating websites, so it would be more work for me to create a page that it would be to post the information.


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 13, 2004)

Thanks Rob that would be nice. 

This may turn into a rather good thread if no one decides to start flameing it.
If you are just posting the points and not saying what danage can be duone maybe there will be no war of words just some good information


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## kanjc (Aug 13, 2004)

I don't see any problem with posting them, it is better to have the correct information than to have someone improperly trying to replicate something they saw in a MA flick and really screwing sombody up. I say go for it, besides it would be interesting to be able to see how many there are.


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## Rob Broad (Aug 13, 2004)

Here is a sample of what each post would be in each merridian.  Ofcourse there would be 9 post before this one.

ST 10: SHUITU (Water Prominence)
At the anterior border of the sternocleidomastoideus, midway between ST 9 and ST 11.
This point had always stood in the shadow of ST 9. It is however, just as dangerous as ST 9 and when struck spot on the point, is considered by many doctors to be even more dangerous. A strike here causes an immediate rush of yang Qi to the head causing knock out, the face goes red and the tongue turns blue. A hard strike will cause knock out. Combine this strike with Neigwan and you have a most dangerous strike. This strike adds Qi to the head. The recipient will fall down a split second after the strike. There is also an immediate shock to the head area.


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## Scout_379 (Aug 13, 2004)

I think the benefits outweigh the ways in which this information could be misused. After all, there are some good(healthy) ones too!
relief for upset stomach, headache etc. 
What about combinations of different points? My sensei gave showed me a couple, one to get rid of a headache, one to stop a nosebleed, both work very effectively.


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## Rob Broad (Aug 13, 2004)

I feel that knowledge and information are neutral, and it is the users intent that can make something dangerous or helpful.


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## Rob Broad (Aug 13, 2004)

I have another question for y'all where abouts should the pressure point posts be placed?

Japanese Arts
Chinese Arts
Gneral Martial Arts

Where does everybody think the info should go?


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## mj-hi-yah (Aug 13, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I have another question for y'all where abouts should the pressure point posts be placed?
> 
> Japanese Arts
> Chinese Arts
> ...


I generally only go to select forums. Since we are in General and I frequent it and all of the people polled must also check this forum - I say leave it here.


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## Enson (Aug 14, 2004)

i agree!


peace


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## Rob Broad (Aug 14, 2004)

Unless there is a landslide of No's  it looks like I will be posting the pressure points.  Now I only hope I don't get any replies in the process of posting the points in the the various threads.  I will also be adding the following disclaimer to each thread:  

Even though MartialTalk.com has posted the information about pressure points, we want to make sure everyone knows that if they do attempt to manipulate them they do so at their own risk. It is suggested that the Pressure Point information found on MartialTalk.com be only used for reference material, and that you seek out a qualified instructor to learn this material from.

Please use this material responsibly.


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 14, 2004)

Found 'em just now.  Thanks Rob.  Looking forward to the others.  KT


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## Rob Broad (Aug 14, 2004)

So far I have posted the points for Heat, Lung and Liver, although I will need to add a diagram for liver when I can get one resized to fit MT Parameters.


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 14, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> So far I have posted the points for Heat, Lung and Liver, although I will need to add a diagram for liver when I can get one resized to fit MT Parameters.


Was wondering about that.  Good stuff!  KT


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## Rob Broad (Aug 14, 2004)

I also have some other information to post about Pressure points that will be added shortly.  I almost wish the pressure points had tehir own forum or subforum so tehy don't get lost in the shuffle.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 14, 2004)

I've added a subforum specifically for pressure points inside the Library forum.  Rob's posting a great deal of information and after looking through it all, putting it all in 1 easy to find place just seemed 'right'.


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## Rob Broad (Aug 14, 2004)

I added all the points I wll be sending the rest of teh diagrams to Kaith so he can put them into the proper meridians.  Hopefully we can get some good conversations going from all this material.


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## Rob Broad (Aug 14, 2004)

For those looking for the information it is in teh Library in the General Mrtial Arts Section,  Dopey me I looked at the top link saying library and ahd to go searching for the right place.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 14, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> For those looking for the information it is in teh Library in the General Mrtial Arts Section, Dopey me I looked at the top link saying library and ahd to go searching for the right place.


I've also updated the Library listing to point to it, as well as combining many other resources.


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## SMP (Aug 15, 2004)

what about leving them in a compressed format so those who want them can grab them.


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## Rob Broad (Aug 15, 2004)

SMP said:
			
		

> what about leving them in a compressed format so those who want them can grab them.




I am pretty close to computer illiterate.  I tried to post a couple of the merridians entirely on my website and they were just too big.  There is a lot of information there.  The way they are set up in the Library makes them very easy to use.


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## Sarah (Aug 15, 2004)

My instructor has told us if we are practising pressure points to only try them on one side of the body, if you start crossing back and forth you could have a bit of trouble on your hands.....Rob could you please elaborate on this a bit??


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## Rob Broad (Aug 15, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> My instructor has told us if we are practising pressure points to only try them on one side of the body, if you start crossing back and forth you could have a bit of trouble on your hands.....Rob could you please elaborate on this a bit??



Sarah it is the using of several pints in conjuction that causes serious damage and knockouts.  You also have to be wary of shutting down parts of the body, use the points listed in the Library as reference material only, don't try to learn the system form them.  

On a side note your font is really small and hard to see


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## Sarah (Aug 15, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> Sarah it is the using of several pints in conjuction that causes serious damage and knockouts. You also have to be wary of shutting down parts of the body, use the points listed in the Library as reference material only, don't try to learn the system form them.
> 
> On a side note your font is really small and hard to see


Thanks for that Rob...hows this for size??


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## Rob Broad (Aug 15, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> Thanks for that Rob...hows this for size??



Thanks, I thought my old age was affecting my eye sight


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## Matt Stone (Aug 15, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> ...it is the using of several pints in conjuction that causes serious damage and knockouts.  You also have to be wary of shutting down parts of the body, use the points listed in the Library as reference material only, don't try to learn the system form them.



This is one of the DKI fallacies...  You don't need to "activate" several points to cause a KO or to cause "serious damage."  This shows two things - 1) the depth (or lack thereof) of a genuine understanding of vital point striking and 2) the impracticality of DKI-based application.

As has been debated repeatedly on this forum and many others, when DKI fans start executing their oh so "deadly" multiple point strikes on attackers moving at full speed, then they will have some basis in fact upon which to predicate their theories.  Since the only thing they have "proven" thus far is that their methods don't work on people other than their own students (www.bullshido.com has a wonderful video clip that was on a television news program demonstrating a big, bad DKI instructor's inability to knock out the petite reporter because she was "too tense," and students from another school who were invited in were 100% resistant to their KO attempts while their own students fell like leaves...   :idunno:  ), it makes me wonder why anyone who has spent any time training against resistant, aggressive opponents would ever fall prey to their mystical mumbo-jumbo approach...  
Additionally, DKI exponents profess an ability to KO you without touching you, or by yelling at you ("kiaijutsu").  This does little to further their reputation, especially when these additional methods fail to work on non-DKI students just like their "hands on" methods fail...     Of course, as a money-making scam it is a wonderful tool with which to bilk cash from the unsuspecting, ignorant, starry-eyed masses looking for the magical Holy Grail of martial arts training that will enable them to defeat their opponent without breaking a sweat. 

Whatever.  Sometimes no matter how bad the TV show, some folks will still watch no matter what...  :idunno:

Hey, Rob...  When did you start practicing pressure point stuff?  I wasn't aware you had attended any seminars...  If you have, what happened?  I thought kenpo was your bag?  Are you adding this to your base?  Just curious...


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## ppko (Aug 16, 2004)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> This is one of the DKI fallacies... You don't need to "activate" several points to cause a KO or to cause "serious damage." This shows two things - 1) the depth (or lack thereof) of a genuine understanding of vital point striking and 2) the impracticality of DKI-based application.
> 
> As has been debated repeatedly on this forum and many others, when DKI fans start executing their oh so "deadly" multiple point strikes on attackers moving at full speed, then they will have some basis in fact upon which to predicate their theories. Since the only thing they have "proven" thus far is that their methods don't work on people other than their own students (www.bullshido.com has a wonderful video clip that was on a television news program demonstrating a big, bad DKI instructor's inability to knock out the petite reporter because she was "too tense," and students from another school who were invited in were 100% resistant to their KO attempts while their own students fell like leaves... :idunno: ), it makes me wonder why anyone who has spent any time training against resistant, aggressive opponents would ever fall prey to their mystical mumbo-jumbo approach...
> Additionally, DKI exponents profess an ability to KO you without touching you, or by yelling at you ("kiaijutsu"). This does little to further their reputation, especially when these additional methods fail to work on non-DKI students just like their "hands on" methods fail...  Of course, as a money-making scam it is a wonderful tool with which to bilk cash from the unsuspecting, ignorant, starry-eyed masses looking for the magical Holy Grail of martial arts training that will enable them to defeat their opponent without breaking a sweat.
> ...


I don't know why you are so anti DKI, but I am not going to get pulled into another argument with you over this.  As I have said before I will keep doing what I do you keep doing what you do.  I am tired of getting into the same argument with you and your little friend.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 16, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> I don't know why you are so anti DKI,



Because I am against anything unrealistic, especially when it is marketed as some over the top, end all answer to self-defense.  I am all *for* pressure point striking, but the basic theory that you have to hit 2 or more points to effect your opponent is garbage (more points certainly enhance the effect, but only one is required), and the basic premise that you'll have the opportunity to hit 2 or more points against someone trying to take your head off is inaccurate at best.

Please, for the sake of educating me, please describe your reactions to the following scenarios:

a) Opponent eyes you from across the room.  He steps toward you, chest puffed out and anger in his eyes, asks "What do you think you're looking at, punk?"  What do you do?

b) Same opponent.  He continues across the room and makes a grab for your shirt.  What do you do?

c) Same opponent.  He follows the grab with a high, hard right cross aimed squarely at your face.  You have already been grabbed, so he is VERY close and you have little, if any, time to react.  What do you do?

You claim you have used pressure points in "real" conflicts.  Fine.  I can neither prove nor disprove that claim, though the burden of proof rests with you not me...  Even if your claims were 100% legitimate, you wouldn't be able to validate them without video, so we'll call it a moot point.  But let's talk theory for a moment using the above scenarios...  



> but I am not going to get pulled into another argument with you over this.



Well, I don't recall *attempting* to pull you into an argument...  If you look at my post, you'll see it is/was a response to Rob Broad (as evidenced by my quoting of his post as well as the questions directed toward him at the end of it).  I don't recall addressing *you* at all, so if you are so sensitive to commentary or your training won't withstand a little scrutiny, then butt out...  Every pressure point thread isn't all about you and your kiaijutsu...    



> As I have said before I will keep doing what I do you keep doing what you do.



I'm sure you will, for whatever reason.  [sarcasm]It's always nice to see people approach their training with a critical eye...[/sarcasm]



> I am tired of getting into the same argument with you and your little friend.



Again, I wasn't addressing *you*.  If you felt compelled by my post to reply, that's on you.  I didn't *make* you do anything - you responded all on your own.  Bear in mind, though, that as long as you espouse the ability to KO me (or anyone) with a touch, with _no_ touch, or with a shout, you'll be called out every single time you speak about it...  By me, by others, by anyone who refuses to live in a fantasy world where magical dragons fly through the air and long bearded, white haired martial arts masters destroy their opponents with a thought...     You say you can fly through the air, prove me wrong by flying past me.  Otherwise, until proof is provided, you can't fly (and it is silly to believe otherwise).

So get over yourself.  If my understanding of DKI theory is incorrect (2+ points to "activate" them in order to effect the opponent), correct me.  Or at least defend the theory that such multiple strikes are possible, and how you know that to be true.  Or just continue to gripe about how persecuted you are for believing in fairy tales...

Either way, you'll continue to do what you do, and I'll continue to do what I do.  Isn't that right?   :ultracool


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## Sarah (Aug 16, 2004)

Why close you mind to possibilities!! Just because you dont believe it works does not mean it does not work, all it means is you dont know how to make it work.

If a 10th dan Master told me he could fly, rather than closing my mind and saying that is rubbish, I would simply tell myself ..... Wouldnt that be amazing, and I hope one day I can experience that!!!   


"Some see things as they are and say 'why?' I dream things that never were and say 'why not?'" 

"Only fools are 'know it alls' "


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## Matt Stone (Aug 16, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> Why close you mind to possibilities!! Just because you dont believe it works does not mean it does not work, all it means is you dont know how to make it work.[/size]
> 
> It certainly isn't a question of having a closed mind, nor is it a question of my inability to make it work.  The vital point striking I have studied does not require multiple points to be struck in succession to incapacitate the opponent, rather only one point is required (though more can be used).
> 
> ...


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## Disco (Aug 16, 2004)

Open question............ Does pressure points work on everybody?


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 16, 2004)

There are at this moment hundreds of different styles, arts and systems.  There are thousands of different schools and lineages.  There are major differences between eastern and western ideas on how the body works.  A short time ago the idea of sticking a needle into your arm to relieve a problem seemed barbaric to a group who advocated slipping a couple of leeches down the ol' codpiece.  Now of course, after years of bad fortune, the idea of leeches and medical use is making a comeback.

Certainly when it comes to the idea of pressure points and their use there is room for a few differing ideas and concepts. 

The idea that the DKI approach is wrong has been discussed in depth here. Rather than arguing about it, perhaps the differing viewpoint should be demonstrated with solid fact? If the information presented by Rob is in error, incomplete or otherwise flawed, I would prefer to have the complete information available.  In the absence of such information, or the use of the infamous "Calgon" defense, it is hard to properly analyize.

I've heard from those who disagree with George Dillman, and I've heard from those who have felt the techniques first hand.  I've seen the reports that have been mentioned above.  My only response is, if DKI/Dillman is wrong, to provide the 'correct' information as you see it, and not to hide behind the 'I cant tell you' or 'its a sekret' defense.


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## Sarah (Aug 16, 2004)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> my name is Puff and I'm a dragon... Do you believe me?


 
It shouldn't matter whether I believe you, the point is, is that what you believe. 

At the end of the day everyone has different opinions of what works and what doesnt, we are all on our own journeys.
Why waste your time arguing with people that think differently to you...you are preaching to the wrong crowd.

Im all for analysing things and listening to new ideas......but telling someone they are wrong and you are right, just because you say so is probably not the best way to get your point across.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 16, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> There are at this moment hundreds of different styles, arts and systems.  There are thousands of different schools and lineages.  There are major differences between eastern and western ideas on how the body works.  A short time ago the idea of sticking a needle into your arm to relieve a problem seemed barbaric to a group who advocated slipping a couple of leeches down the ol' codpiece.  Now of course, after years of bad fortune, the idea of leeches and medical use is making a comeback.



Which is one of the reasons one of my favorite sayings is "one man's magic, another man's technology."



> Certainly when it comes to the idea of pressure points and their use there is room for a few differing ideas and concepts.



It isn't the idea of pressure/vital points, nor the idea that they can cause varied effects, that I rail against.  It is the assumption by so many people, in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the DKI approach is viable.  As with _any_ viable, living approach to training for personal combat, if you do not train against an opponent that is actively trying to separate your head from your neck, at least at some point in your training, then you aren't training against a realistic threat.  Your opponent *must* be intending you harm to one degree or another - if they aren't, you are only playing "tag," and your "skills" will fade away the moment you are confronted with a genuine danger.



> The idea that the DKI approach is wrong has been discussed in depth here. Rather than arguing about it, perhaps the differing viewpoint should be demonstrated with solid fact? If the information presented by Rob is in error, incomplete or otherwise flawed, I would prefer to have the complete information available.  In the absence of such information, or the use of the infamous "Calgon" defense, it is hard to properly analyize.



Not sure what a "Calgon" defense is...

Try this - 

So many people like to toss about the term "GB 20."  The information I have is as follows:

*Fengchi*
Location:  In the depression between the upper portion of medial sternocleidomastoideus and medial trapezius, on the same level with Fengfu.

Indications:  Headache, vertigo, insomnia, pain and stiffness of the neck, blurred vision, glaucoma, red and painful eyes, tinnitus, convulsion, epilepsy, infantile convulsion, febrile diseases, common cold, nasal obstruction, rhinorrhea.

Method:  Puncture 0.5 - 0.8 inch towards the tip of the nose.  Moxibustion is applicable.

Regional Anatomy - 
Vasculature:  The brances of the occipital artery and vein.

Innervation:  The branch of the lesser occipital nerve.

To strike - This is termed by our system as a MUSCLE/NERVE point as it affects both the musculature as well as the nerves that supply this part of the body.  As this point can cause death if struck, I won't post the details on proper striking angle publicly.  To do so would be irresponsible.  If it were just for a painful point, then I would, but due to the potential for self-injury I refuse to do so.  PM or email me for the details.  

In general application, this point alone, without "activation," can cause unconsciousness with a relatively light strike.  I prefer hammerfists or knife hand strikes as they fit the anatomical landmarks well.

Does DKI go into that degree of information?  And is this point _really_ affecting the acupuncture point itself, or the underlying anatomy?

Please, feel free to supply me with any other point commonly used, or perhaps a combination of points.  I will cross reference your suggestions against my information and respond back.

How's that?



> I've heard from those who disagree with George Dillman, and I've heard from those who have felt the techniques first hand.  I've seen the reports that have been mentioned above.  My only response is, if DKI/Dillman is wrong, to provide the 'correct' information as you see it, and not to hide behind the 'I cant tell you' or 'its a sekret' defense.



I hold nothing "secret."  I will provide information, but I won't pass on information to strangers over the internet that I don't even supply my own students until they have been training for a while...


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## Sarah (Aug 16, 2004)

Matt, From what I understand 'correct if I am wrong' you do use pressure points in your training, but you do not agree with the way that Dillman teaches it??

Who have you trained with, with regard to pressure points?? also have you had the opportunity to stand in front of Dillman and question him about his approach or have him demonstrate his techs on you?


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## Matt Stone (Aug 16, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> It shouldn't matter whether I believe you, the point is, is that what you believe.



I can believe I'm invisible all day long, and it won't *make* me invisible...  Allowing me to wander about believing I _am_ invisible, and encouraging others to believe I am invisible and I can make them invisible too is absurd, no matter what they want to believe...



> At the end of the day everyone has different opinions of what works and what doesnt, we are all on our own journeys.



Sure.  Journeys.  But at what point do you ignore the potential danger of people relying on a method that in all likelihood will actually result in their own injury rather than their own defense? 



> Why waste your time arguing with people that think differently to you...you are preaching to the wrong crowd.



While I draw no corrolation between myself and Christ, He spent plenty of time confronting those with conflicting views in order to show them the errors of their beliefs.  I'm not on a religious crusade, and I'm not saying (necessarily) that DKI points _don't_ work.  Just that having your opponent standing stock still, teaching your students to strike 2+ points on an immobile opponent, and then having them equate that ability with the ability to do the exact same thing on a mobile, full speed attack is ridiculous.  If the points are being trained against a full speed attack and are working, fine.  But there is, thusfar, no evidence of that being the standard.  So it would seem that I am "preaching" to the _right_ crowd...  If I stand around telling the people that agree with me my thoughts, then I'm not telling them anything new.  The people that are in need of eye-opening are the ones who are believing whatever they are told...  In this case, that'd be quite a few of the DKI folks I've encountered...



> Im all for analysing things and listening to new ideas......but telling someone they are wrong and you are right, just because you say so is probably not the best way to get your point across.



And that is precisely what the DKI people say as well...  They won't entertain for a moment that the great Saint Dillman may be incorrect, nor that their method of training may be unrealistic.  They fully believe that they can execute their multi-point strikes and KOs, that they can affect you without touching you in some cases as well as being able to shout you into unconsciousness, when all the evidence points to the contrary...

It boils down to objectivity.  I have taken all the things I have learned over the years, especially the things I believed unquestioningly once upon a time, and re-examined them to verify their validity.  Some things I don't accept any longer.  Other things I have a much more firm knowledge of than I did then.  But I refuse to "believe" things work...  Belief is based on acceptance, not experience.  I want to "know" things work, and there is only one way to develop that knowledge...


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## Matt Stone (Aug 16, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> Matt, From what I understand 'correct if I am wrong' you do use pressure points in your training, but you do not agree with the way that Dillman teaches it??



Precisely.  The points are the same points used in acupuncture, but they aren't necessarily affecting the acupuncture points with their strikes (no matter what they think they are doing), nor is there a requirement to strike 2+ points.  Doing so surely increases the impact of the strikes to the opponent's perception, but one point does just fine...  Striking across the body is also a good "force multiplier" to strikes, whether they are to vital points or not!  It isn't like Ghostbusters where "crossing the streams" is dangerous...  That's a load of hooey.  However, for reasons I don't fully understand but am trying to determine, if you "kick left" and then "hit right," the effect is impressive.



> Who have you trained with, with regard to pressure points?? also have you had the opportunity to stand in front of Dillman and question him about his approach or have him demonstrate his techs on you?



I've trained with my teacher, Sifu Phillip Starr, since 1985.  He has attended a number of the same seminars that Dillman attended under Seiyu Oyata (the same seminars that gave rise to Dillman's claims to pressure point training), as well as the techniques inherent in our own style.  I have also spent time on the mat with one of Oyata's 4th dans while I lived in Japan.

I have yet to attend a DKI event, but certainly if one happened within a 2 hour drive of my location, and the fee wasn't outrageous (though I suspect it will be), I'd attend to see for myself.  So far, all I have are the numerous video clips available on the internet, and nearly all of them have the opponent/victim standing still like a mannequin waiting to be hit.  In the video clip on Bullshido, a news crew went to the man's school and the very petite reporter stood stock still and the teacher STILL couldn't KO her!  He said she was "too tense."  Additionally, students from another school were brought in, and they were 100% unaffected, though the man's own students fell like flies...  Sound iffy to you?  Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me...  Students want to believe the "master" can teach them the dreaded "death touch," so when he strikes them they go down/out.  When others who do not believe in the "master's" ability are struck, they stand there waiting for something to happen...  Why would that be?

Somebody asked upthread if pressure points work on everyone.  No.  Some people are naturally resilient, even to pressure points.  There is a student in our club that you can literally strike repeatedly in the same points, cross body, multiple point combinations, etc., and they have absolutely no serious effect.  He is far more receptive of generic strikes to vital areas than he is to point strikes...  That isn't the point, though, as people like that are the exception, not the rule.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 16, 2004)

My big question has been...and remains...since the body is pretty much covered with acu-points, especially the sensitive parts, how can you NOT train in striking them if you train in striking a person at all?  You can't even kick someone in the butt-crack without tagging some points.  Try to find a "footprint" about the size of a forefist on the human face that doesn't have an acupoint on it.

Round-kick the outside of the knee, and you're smacking some of the big points. Can't avoid it; they are just there, surrounding the lateral joint line and fibular head. For that matter, if you practice throwing roundhouse kicks with the top of your foot (which is inadvisable for a number of reasons, but that's a different thread), you're contacting many of the LI 1-4 points, some of which are used to "open the portals". That would mean, each time you make contact, you are "activating" you're own acupoints for the opponent to attack, making it easier for HIM to knock YOU out.

I agree with Matt, particularly after chatting with Doc in the wee hours, getting my defenses weakened by simple little violations/activations of various points: It only takes 1 well-placed to get the job done.

D.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 16, 2004)

Whoever "dinged" me with yet another anonymous "negative reputation points" post, grow up.  If you can't say "always with the negatives" (note the correct spelling, please) publicly to me, you ought to just remain silent...  Speak up like an adult rather than taking pointless anonymous pot shots.

 

"How do I make myself known to you, then?" you whine?  Easy.  Make your comment, and include your name in the comment...  It's what I do every time to make sure people know who said what to whom.

I have no problem identifying myself nor my beliefs.  Why do you?   :idunno:


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## Sarah (Aug 16, 2004)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> Precisely. The points are the same points used in acupuncture, but they aren't necessarily affecting the acupuncture points with their strikes (no matter what they think they are doing), nor is there a requirement to strike 2+ points. Doing so surely increases the impact of the strikes to the opponent's perception, but one point does just fine... Striking across the body is also a good "force multiplier" to strikes, whether they are to vital points or not! It isn't like Ghostbusters where "crossing the streams" is dangerous... That's a load of hooey. However, for reasons I don't fully understand but am trying to determine, if you "kick left" and then "hit right," the effect is impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I find what we say interesting and think you make some good points. I dont know much about DKI so the opinions I have of course a based on limited knowledge.

Is it possible that these seminar's that you talk about (where people are standing still) are introductions to PP training, and not a real life fighting tech's??


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## Sarah (Aug 16, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> It only takes 1 well-placed to get the job done.


I would have to agree with that.


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## Raewyn (Aug 16, 2004)

Who and what is DKI????


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## Sarah (Aug 16, 2004)

Raisin said:
			
		

> Who and what is DKI????


*Gearge Dillman* Karate International 

I know he does seminars and has videos about Pressure Points..I am unsure of the type of training Matt speaks of however!


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## Matt Stone (Aug 16, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> I find what we say interesting and think you make some good points.



I'm not trying to discount the entire body of information that DKI has to offer...  However, the information they present is "color by number" pressure point theory.  They toss about acupuncture shorthand terminology, making themselves sound very impressive and all, but again the exception is the individual that knows about acupuncture theory.  If they knew acupuncture well at all, they'd realize that much of what they claim to be affecting the acupuncture points were really having little to no effect on the points but were far more likely affecting the normal, gross anatomy underlying the points...



> I dont know much about DKI so the opinions I have of course a based on limited knowledge.



As are mine!  But I have yet to find *any* DKI exponent that was forthcoming in defending their theories, their training, their seminar instructional methods, etc...  They get upset at questions being asked of them, they whinge about how they are being persecuted, and then they run away.  They don't stand up for their professed skills and their adopted art form nor do they attempt to support their methods with any explanation of any kind.  This is what causes me to believe that their methods are even more questionable than I would have cause to believe ordinarily...



> Is it possible that these seminar's that you talk about (where people are standing still) are introductions to PP training, and not a real life fighting tech's??



Entirely possible, though improbable...  Again, the DKI folks haven't done a good job of standing up for their training.  Some have said that the immobile victim is used for instructional purposes.  Fine.  I don't attempt to have my students learn anything as I "home run" them with a new technique.  However, when queried as to how they train *outside* of the seminar format, they claim they train with aggressive, resistant opponents but there is little evidence of that to be found...  The 4th dan I trained with in Japan has had encounters with a number of DKI folks in person, and they have been tested and found wanting...  Having suffered at this 4th dan's hands, I am very willing to take his word on the performance of those he encountered.

BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front), if it doesn't work on the mat when your opponent isn't REALLY trying to kill you, it will surely fail when he is...  I don't want to risk that, do you?


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## Matt Stone (Aug 16, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> My big question has been...and remains...since the body is pretty much covered with acu-points, especially the sensitive parts, how can you NOT train in striking them if you train in striking a person at all?  You can't even kick someone in the butt-crack without tagging some points.  Try to find a "footprint" about the size of a forefist on the human face that doesn't have an acupoint on it.



Amen.  There is a student in our club named Joe that is really fun to hit...  He makes the most intriguing squeals and moans, and given that he is a very macho, 215 pound man, hearing him squeal in pain is *really* entertaining...  Anyway, the vital point I like to hit most often is the one we refer to as "Joe."  That's good enough, really.  A real hit, a good hit, may well not *need* a vital point!  Last time I took a shot to the liver, it was just a simple, well placed punch.  No vital point (other than "the liver"), just a punch.



> Round-kick the outside of the knee, and you're smacking some of the big points. Can't avoid it; they are just there, surrounding the lateral joint line and fibular head.



In our manuals, we have at least 8 different points surrounding the patella.  The thing is, since each one is only about the size of a dime-quarter, if you kick one you will likely hit one or two others...  at least!



> It only takes 1 well-placed to get the job done.



Preach on, mah brutha!!!   :uhyeah:


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## Sarah (Aug 16, 2004)

Is it possible that you have just come across some 'not so good' DKI people.

Are you saying that all DKI training is rubbish or just parts of it.

I just dont think it is necessary to come down so hard on DKI people because you dont follow the some training?


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## Raewyn (Aug 16, 2004)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> Then I wish you well and hope you never a) are attacked for real by someone who intends to do you genuine bodily injury, b) begin teaching students to have an attitude devoid of critical thinking, c) get ripped off by a well spoken but unethical instructor who takes advantage of your starry eyed naivete.
> 
> Some things simply aren't possible.  If someone tells you they can do a thing, the belief in their claim should be predicated not on their alleged rank but by their demonstration in front of witnesses of the professed ability.  Otherwise, my name is Puff and I'm a dragon...  Do you believe me?


 I agree with most of what you have said, even with my limited knowledge of pressure points. You sound very passionate about what you are saying. Do you think maybe you are being a bit too agressive about trying to get your point across?????


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## Disco (Aug 17, 2004)

:idunno: Nobody has any input to my prior question (Do pressure points work on everybody?). Perhaps if I rephrase it...... Do all pressure points work on everybody? This is not a trick question, but the answer could be construed as such. The answer just may open some eyes, as to the validity or non-validity of the forever ongoing PP debate.


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## Rob Broad (Aug 17, 2004)

Matt Stone answered the question in a post shortly after you asked.

"Somebody asked upthread if pressure points work on everyone. No. Some people are naturally resilient, even to pressure points. There is a student in our club that you can literally strike repeatedly in the same points, cross body, multiple point combinations, etc., and they have absolutely no serious effect. He is far more receptive of generic strikes to vital areas than he is to point strikes... That isn't the point, though, as people like that are the exception, not the rule."


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## ppko (Aug 17, 2004)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> Because I am against anything unrealistic, especially when it is marketed as some over the top, end all answer to self-defense. I am all *for* pressure point striking, but the basic theory that you have to hit 2 or more points to effect your opponent is garbage (more points certainly enhance the effect, but only one is required), and the basic premise that you'll have the opportunity to hit 2 or more points against someone trying to take your head off is inaccurate at best.
> 
> Please, for the sake of educating me, please describe your reactions to the following scenarios:
> 
> ...


Here is the thing you have to be able to notice the preassault ques (I think I spelled that right I am not sure) but there are certain things that people do that should alert you to them attacking you.  i have no problem on proving theories and niether does anyone else in DKI, you are a very knowledgable individual, and very passionate, I can respect that but I do not respect the way you are always downing DKI.  Some people only need to be struck once some need three, and some may not go down with pressure points alone but that is why we train with other things.  There is nothing that we are not willing to show each other in DKI and we test everything we do, like I have said time and time again what is on videos are seminars and we have to be able to show people how to do stuff or they will never get it.  If we want everyone to go out I am sure we could do it, but then you chance the risk of injury (especially if we do not know the individual and there health conditions)  I am a lot like you in the regards of the proove it to me attitude, almost everything that they have done I have had done to me, and this is why I believe in DKI.  I found a new love for the Martial Arts when I found DKI, I am sure that I wouldn't be in the Martial Arts right now if it wasn't for DKI.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 17, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> Is it possible that you have just come across some 'not so good' DKI people.



Certainly.  The thing that bothers me, however, is that 100% of the admittedly small number of black belt level people I have encountered have unsatisfactorily defended their training or simply refused to attempt to do so.  That doesn't necessarily impugn their training, but it definitely causes one to wonder why they won't step up to educate their detractors...



> Are you saying that all DKI training is rubbish or just parts of it.



I'm saying that whenever a person trains in a martial art and does not at least occasionally ratchet up the danger knob to a point where someone runs a very real, legitimate risk of getting injured (not permanently, but a good KO, or hit so hard they are nearly unable to get back up, etc.), then their training is little other than fancy dancing.  We may all have separate "journeys" we are pursuing, but it would be safe to say that we all have self-defense on our minds to one degree or another.  To prepare for an encounter in a method completely unrepresentative of that encounter is silly.  It is akin to saying that you know how to wrestle a tiger because when you were a child you wrestled with your stuffed toy tiger.  Completely unrelated events, and attempting one based on participating in the other is going to get someone hurt.



> I just dont think it is necessary to come down so hard on DKI people because you dont follow the some training?



I'm not "coming down" on them, hard or otherwise.  I'm asking them to consider what they are doing, and more especially to consider what they are teaching.  Unfortunately, there is no monitoring of ethics within the MA community, and some folks will sell anything just to make a buck.  Selling the deadly no-touch KO skill to someone, as an example, is unethical to say the least!  You know, you just *know* someone is going to think they are empowered with that skill and will rush out to try and use it...  Then when that person gets injured, who do we blame?  First, the individual who thought they could do something as stupid as KOing someone without ever making contact.  Then the instructor that convinced that simpleton that such a thing could be done in the first place!  We could go a long way toward increasing our own legitimacy by preventing the imbecile's near self-inflicted injury in the first place if we could educate people to better understand what is and is not real in MA...



> You sound very passionate about what you are saying. Do you think maybe you are being a bit too agressive about trying to get your point across?????



Maybe I am aggressive.  If people have too much difficulty dealing with my "aggressive" nature online, how do they think they'll fare when confronted with an attacker?  I've been in the military a long time, and I've had that question thrown at me before...  "Aren't you too hard on the young private?"  Certainly not.  If you can't hack a strong argument, you'll probably curl up and die when someone tries to pound your head in with their fists...

Yes, I am passionate.  Because when frauds perpetuate themselves and no one stands up to halt the flood of questionable training, it diminishes us all.  It makes the effort that legitimate MAists in legitimate training regimens put forth appear to be no different than the wannabe ninjas running amok through housing subdivisions and the wannabe uber-masters who are several hundred pounds overweight and incapable of executing most of the techniques they profess to teach.

How does that quote go?  Something like "all that is required for evil to grow is for good men to do nothing."  Same deal here...

I gotta admit, though, I'm getting to the point of thinking that people get exactly what they deserve sometimes...


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## Raewyn (Aug 17, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> :idunno: Nobody has any input to my prior question (Do pressure points work on everybody?). Perhaps if I rephrase it...... Do all pressure points work on everybody? This is not a trick question, but the answer could be construed as such. The answer just may open some eyes, as to the validity or non-validity of the forever ongoing PP debate.


 I dont know enough about pressure points to know what the big deal is about them.(ie why there is so much debate about them).  I would have thought they would have worked on everybody!  It would be just a matter of getting them in the right place. Maybe you might come across some freak of nature that you try and do a GB31 on and it may not work.  I dont know!!!  We learn these at training. We learn a few more each belt grade.  We get shown where they are and how they can me used from a realistic approach.


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## ppko (Aug 17, 2004)

Raisin said:
			
		

> I dont know enough about pressure points to know what the big deal is about them.(ie why there is so much debate about them). I would have thought they would have worked on everybody! It would be just a matter of getting them in the right place. Maybe you might come across some freak of nature that you try and do a GB31 on and it may not work. I dont know!!! We learn these at training. We learn a few more each belt grade. We get shown where they are and how they can me used from a realistic approach.


Who do you train with, I think that it is great to see others training, and using Pressure points. Who is your instrucors teacher just wandering. How long have you been training


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## Raewyn (Aug 17, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Who do you train with, I think that it is great to see others training, and using Pressure points. Who is your instrucors teacher just wandering. How long have you been training


 Hi PPKO
I train with Steve Wallace - Incorporated Martial Arts in New Zealand. I have been doing this for 1  1/2 years. At the moment we are learning our GB31 and four other pressure points, which we are about to cover (dont know what they are yet).


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## Scout_379 (Aug 17, 2004)

I recently made a friend of mine join our club. NOTHING works on him. He is immune to ALL pressure points and joint locks.  Or at least they don't hurt him, I dont know about the other "symtoms".  He needs to tap out early during locks because he cannot tell when his bones may break or dislocate.


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## Sarah (Aug 17, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> :idunno: Nobody has any input to my prior question (Do pressure points work on everybody?). Perhaps if I rephrase it...... Do all pressure points work on everybody? This is not a trick question, but the answer could be construed as such. The answer just may open some eyes, as to the validity or non-validity of the forever ongoing PP debate.


Matt did respond to this, 

I have found in my limited training that there are people at either end of the scale, some are not affected and some are very sensitive.


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## Sarah (Aug 17, 2004)

I think another point to consider is that people in 'altered states' i.e. drugs/alcohol etc may respond differently when tech's are applied as their body may not register what you are doing.


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## ppko (Aug 17, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> I think another point to consider is that people in 'altered states' i.e. drugs/alcohol etc may respond differently when tech's are applied as their body may not register what you are doing.


You are right, depending on the drugs and the points used it could be a worse effect or they may feel nothing at all


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## Sarah (Aug 17, 2004)

The thing with Martial Arts training is that for some of us it is more than just for self defence and or tournaments.

Also anyone with half a brain would know that in a real life situation you are not going to stand there and try to hit 2 PP and expect a KO, Pressure Points are just another aspect of the training that we do in an effort in enhance our Techs.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 17, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> The thing with Martial Arts training is that for some of us it is more than just for self defence and or tournaments.



Agreed.  But even though some people have other end goals in mind, all the benefits of martial arts stem from arduous physical hardship and demanding training.

Where does the confidence come from?  Because you can stand on one foot longer than anyone else in class?  Or because you can train with the biggest, nastiest smelling guy in the class and make him squeal like a 5 year old girl with a spider on her shoulder?

Where does the physical balance come from?  Because you can do a 360 degree kick (the same balance you could develop from dancing or gymnastics, so it isn't as particular to MA), or because no matter what your opponent tries he can't unbalance you and throw you down.

I think you get where I'm coming from...



> Also anyone with half a brain would know that in a real life situation you are not going to stand there and try to hit 2 PP and expect a KO,



Aha!!!  My point exactly...  And so if a teacher is indoctrinating his students to believe that their 2, 3 and 4 pressure point series of strikes is what will win the fight, he is what, precisely?  I'll tell you...  He's setting them up for failure because he is predicating their success on an unrealistic and impractical method of self-defense.



> Pressure Points are just another aspect of the training that we do in an effort in enhance our Techs.



We are in complete agreement...


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## Sarah (Aug 17, 2004)

Ah ha....I has taken me a while but I think I am finally understand what you have been getting at, Matt I think we are now on the same page.

I my ignorance I did not realise that there are intructors out there teaching there students that all you need to do it hit a couple of PP and the fight is over, with out giving the student other fighting tools as well.

I love PP and training with them, but as said they are just 'one' aspect of our training.

Thanks for the input at has been interesting hearing your point of view!


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 18, 2004)

i think understanding the complexities of the meridian system is important to all martial artists, and just not from a martial standpoint either. as a shiatsu therapist and martial artist, knowledge of one only serves to enhance my knowledge of the other. but i do believe that understanding the healing qualities of accupuncture will make you a better martial artist. its one thing to know where the point is on the body, and altogether another animal to use it in the martial sense, but notwithstanding the fact that this knowledge will invariably become a part of your self defense repetoire......not just mere techniques to try out on your friends at the dojo.

i say post away.........its knowledge thats readily available at any bookstore

shawn


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## Disco (Aug 18, 2004)

There is a student in our club that you can literally strike repeatedly in the same points, cross body, multiple point combinations, etc., and they have absolutely no serious effect. He is far more receptive of generic strikes to vital areas than he is to point strikes... That isn't the point, though, as people like that are the exception, not the rule."

Ah but that is the point. There are many more of the exception to the rule people out there than what people in general think. What happens if and when you come into hostile contact with one of these people? You are not predispossed to know that PP's won't affect this person and if you attempt to use them, you put yourself in a worse position. My whole point to this is that to many train and then rely on the use of pressure points and that in reality is asking for trouble.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 18, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> Ah but that is the point. There are many more of the exception to the rule people out there than what people in general think. What happens if and when you come into hostile contact with one of these people? You are not predispossed to know that PP's won't affect this person and if you attempt to use them, you put yourself in a worse position. My whole point to this is that to many train and then rely on the use of pressure points and that in reality is asking for trouble.



Precisely.  That is why a) focusing only on pressure points or other pseudo-mystical techniques like no-touch KOs and "kiaijutsu" is only taking away from regular, more reliable training, b) teachers that focus on such things are doing their students a disservice at best, c) training with an immobile partner, or a partner that isn't trying to defeat you is setting the student up for a fanciful situation that will never occur (the reality will be far more devastating).

"Specializing" in pressure points is like a soldier that "specializes" in cleaning his rifle, or "specializes" in 12 mile road marches.  Sure, it is an integral part of the overall scheme of things, but it should mesh seamlessly with the rest of the skills learned and trained instead of being the primary focus of the training...


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## RHD (Aug 18, 2004)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> Precisely.  That is why a) focusing only on pressure points or other pseudo-mystical techniques like no-touch KOs and "kiaijutsu" is only taking away from regular, more reliable training, b) teachers that focus on such things are doing their students a disservice at best, c) training with an immobile partner, or a partner that isn't trying to defeat you is setting the student up for a fanciful situation that will never occur (the reality will be far more devastating).
> 
> "Specializing" in pressure points is like a soldier that "specializes" in cleaning his rifle, or "specializes" in 12 mile road marches.  Sure, it is an integral part of the overall scheme of things, but *it should mesh seamlessly with the rest of the skills learned and trained instead of being the primary focus of the training..*.



You're absolutely right.  The thing is, there will always be pressure point "worshippers" that see them as the holy grail of martial arts.  Unfortuantely the truth comes out under the worst of circumstances, and there is no convincing anyone otherwise.  Once you believe, it's fact until you change your own mind.

Mike


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## Rob Broad (Aug 18, 2004)

The knowledge of pressure oints is just one more tool in your toolbox for self defense.  I don't see anyone pulling off 3 precise strikes for a KO in a true self defense situation. The only exception may be in a two hand lapel grab situation. 

I am not a Dillman student, I am not part of his oraganization, but I have been to several of his seminars when they were in my area.  The pressure point knock outs are neat to see, but I know that they are far from practical.  I enjoy the tuite discriptions of the forms at the seminars more than anything else.

I have met several people who think that pressure points are the end all to be all and that they can use them to defend themselves in any situation.  I, unfortunately, was affiliated with an instructor that has really capitalized from the Dillman seminars.  But he found that he lost a few students that believed the material that they had learn for self defense would be enough to defens themselves if the used pressure points with them.  These people later became referred to as Dillmanites, and they still attend Dillman camps and seminars through out the year with out going to a martial arts school.  To me that is more dangerous than anything else.


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## Sarah (Aug 18, 2004)

It seems to me that most of us are in agreement that Pressure Point can be useful (an fun to learn) but at the end of the day they are just one of many aspects of our training!!


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## Rob Broad (Aug 18, 2004)

Being as isloated as I am up here in the Great White North, there isn't many people I can discuss PP with unless I am online.  These days I am more interested in the Healing aspects, but there is nobody up in my next of the woods that can assist me with this.


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## Sarah (Aug 18, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> Being as isloated as I am up here in the Great White North, there isn't many people I can discuss PP with unless I am online. These days I am more interested in the Healing aspects, but there is nobody up in my next of the woods that can assist me with this.


Have you looked in to shiatsu or something along that line...maybe BlackCat can help you with that!


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## Rob Broad (Aug 18, 2004)

I live in a community of 56 000 people, we are known as the Gateway to the North.  There are 2 major industries here.  Mining and Logging.  The primary sports activities are Hockey, Hunting and Fishing.  While the city is beautiful, and the country side magnificent I am 4 fours North of civilization, and then 2 hours of traffic once there to find anything at all. 

When I say there isn't much here I am not kidding.


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 18, 2004)

i have relatives that live in north bay, rob! 
anyway......as far as the pressure point thing goes..there are certain anatomical points, that when struck, will 99.99% of the time, result in the desired effect. this is not fancy hocus pocus, or anything to do with chi or ki, (which i will say here that i am a believer in) but is a result of affecting the various nerve structures in the body, most commonly baroceptors.
if anyone would like to chat about anything martial arts, i am quite open. and i will be the first to tell you if it is out of my scope of knowledge. i think honesty between teacher and student is one of the most important traits that teachers can bring into the dojo.

shawn


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## ppko (Aug 19, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> The knowledge of pressure oints is just one more tool in your toolbox for self defense. I don't see anyone pulling off 3 precise strikes for a KO in a true self defense situation. The only exception may be in a two hand lapel grab situation.
> 
> I am not a Dillman student, I am not part of his oraganization, but I have been to several of his seminars when they were in my area. The pressure point knock outs are neat to see, but I know that they are far from practical. I enjoy the tuite discriptions of the forms at the seminars more than anything else.
> 
> I have met several people who think that pressure points are the end all to be all and that they can use them to defend themselves in any situation. I, unfortunately, was affiliated with an instructor that has really capitalized from the Dillman seminars. But he found that he lost a few students that believed the material that they had learn for self defense would be enough to defens themselves if the used pressure points with them. These people later became referred to as Dillmanites, and they still attend Dillman camps and seminars through out the year with out going to a martial arts school. To me that is more dangerous than anything else.


Using Pressure Points is a very effective way for people to fight knowing where they are increases your odds in a fight ( aim small miss small concept) the activation area is about the size of a quarter, hitting in the area at the correct angle and direction only increases your odds of winning the fight.  I may not hit the point every time or it may not end the fight but I will not stop hitting after one hit niether, I am well versed enough (as are most DKI people(at least the ones that I have met))to be able to handle myself if do not drop them on the first strike. 
Best Regards


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## Disco (Aug 19, 2004)

Just a simple admonitory............"If you play, your gonna pay"


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## Turbo (Sep 6, 2004)

Post the information and answer questions on pressure points.  Information can get you started but if the person isnt going to invest the time actually training the points (IN MOTION) they wont be effective anyway.  There is alot more into making kyusho work than just angle and direction....Its not going to hurt anyone on this forum if you help answer some of our questions....I would really appreiciate it!


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## ppko (Sep 6, 2004)

Turbo said:
			
		

> Post the information and answer questions on pressure points. Information can get you started but if the person isnt going to invest the time actually training the points (IN MOTION) they wont be effective anyway. There is alot more into making kyusho work than just angle and direction....Its not going to hurt anyone on this forum if you help answer some of our questions....I would really appreiciate it!


I agree with you 100% what was one of your questions


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## bignick (Sep 6, 2004)

pressure points...hmmm....

looking back through this thread i realized i was the first to post on it, then i left...man have things changed

pressure points dont' work on everyone...there are a few on me that don't bother me at all...and some that hurt like a son of a gun..as an illustration of someone who is extra sensitive...my sensei teaches the self-defense class at the local university...and he was talking about pressure points and the one on the neck came up...the same one that is attacked by rear choke or a strike to the side of the neck...and this girl started tapping herself on the neck trying to find it...and knocked herself out...it was unreal...

to me...pressure points are targets of oppurtunity...not the actual goal...but if they're there...go for it...anyone that gets in a fight and their sole strategy is to use pressure points, have a suprise waiting for them...but if your fighting and all of sudden there's an opening, attack...

you should never rely on one thing to protect yourself...


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## Turbo (Sep 8, 2004)

I think it is funny when people say that hitting points is going out of your way in a fight....if I punch a guy in the jaw, why not hit stomach 5 if I am there....totally agree with you bignick....

Stomach 9-  This is one I have worked on for a while now....The point being level with the adam apple...I strike 45 into the neck with a penetrating shuto...I dont get the KO I have tried setting up with both LI 10 and Lung 5.

I got a dizzing effect on one when I took the point more straight back instead of the 45 to the spin.  Any Comments or suggestions...

Also:  I have been told that a point stays activated for 20 min after being struck...but when doing a ko should you stike as fast as possible between points to overload the system??????????

Thanks


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## ppko (Sep 8, 2004)

Turbo said:
			
		

> I think it is funny when people say that hitting points is going out of your way in a fight....if I punch a guy in the jaw, why not hit stomach 5 if I am there....totally agree with you bignick....
> 
> Stomach 9- This is one I have worked on for a while now....The point being level with the adam apple...I strike 45 into the neck with a penetrating shuto...I dont get the KO I have tried setting up with both LI 10 and Lung 5.
> 
> ...


A point is activated as long as your nerves are jumping from being hit there, but yes you should overload the system but if you are in a classroom setting you have to be sensitive enough to the training to not hurt your partner, just wandering you do know how to properly revive people right as this is the most important part of being able to KO someone at least in a classroom setting, if so keep doing what you are doing and good luck in your training:ultracool


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## D.Cobb (Sep 8, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> You are right, depending on the drugs and the points used it could be a worse effect or they may feel nothing at all



If this is what you think pressure point combat is all about, the feelings of pain, then you have got it *ALL* wrong!!
If it relies on pain to work, then it is doomed to fail. Anyone can fight through pain. Some people can go beyond what most of us would consider normal.
Whilst some of the points can cause pain, and they are good for a laugh in the dojo, it is the ones that have effect without pain, that are necessary in a fight. The ones that work, regardless of the persons constitution.

Unfortunately for you, Mr. Dillman does not teach these. 
I understand why he does what he does. No one can truely call him wrong. What he teaches, he calls "The Dillman Pressure Point Method". It is not the "Oyata Method", or "The Grand Poobah Method" etc. And as such, he is entitled to teach it any way he likes. However, just like Mr. Stone, I can't condone the "Stand there, whilst I bash the bejazus outa ya" method.
I never saw my instructor use a static target. And the only condition he would sometimes set for our attacks, might be the height. Eg. punch to my head/ or punch to my stomach etc. his usual instruction was, "Try to take me out." So we would and then we'd nap 
Then he'd show us how.....

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Sep 8, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> Being as isloated as I am up here in the Great White North, there isn't many people I can discuss PP with unless I am online.  These days I am more interested in the Healing aspects, but there is nobody up in my next of the woods that can assist me with this.



Hey Rob, have you tried contacting, Kyusho International? They're all over the place. The guys that run it are ex Dillman, but the group is made up of people from every style imaginable, from all over the planet.

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Sep 8, 2004)

Turbo said:
			
		

> I think it is funny when people say that hitting points is going out of your way in a fight....if I punch a guy in the jaw, why not hit stomach 5 if I am there....totally agree with you bignick....
> 
> Stomach 9-  This is one I have worked on for a while now....The point being level with the adam apple...I strike 45 into the neck with a penetrating shuto...I dont get the KO I have tried setting up with both LI 10 and Lung 5.
> 
> ...



Nope, you don't need to blast to overload the system. The big secret though, is to forget about getting a KO. just hit the points and the rest will take care of its self. Remember, though it'd be cool to get the out cold KO, it doesn't really matter on the street. If you can make your opponent wobbly, then he can't hit you or chase you. All you need to do is get out of there and maybe call the law.

--Dave


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## ppko (Sep 8, 2004)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> If this is what you think pressure point combat is all about, the feelings of pain, then you have got it *ALL* wrong!!
> If it relies on pain to work, then it is doomed to fail. Anyone can fight through pain. Some people can go beyond what most of us would consider normal.
> Whilst some of the points can cause pain, and they are good for a laugh in the dojo, it is the ones that have effect without pain, that are necessary in a fight. The ones that work, regardless of the persons constitution.
> 
> ...


No this is not what I see pressure point fighting as, but if you get someone that has been drinking than there Liver points are more sensitive, but if you get someone coming off of PCP than all the Yang points are shut down you now have to be able to take out his Yin points we know this from some police officers in the NYPD that are with DKI as they now use the points on the inside of the legs to subdue these people.  Like I said before when we first start learning we learn on stationary people but as we progress than so does our training best of luck


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## RRouuselot (Sep 8, 2004)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> .......... However, just like Mr. Stone, I can't condone the "Stand there, whilst I bash the bejazus outa ya" method.
> --Dave


and the stikes are actually more effective when the target is moving.....imagine a train hitting a wall at 50mph......then imagine two trains in a head on collision both going 50mph.......same kind of thing.
This is why people have come from a Dillman Seminar and said that it didn't work on them. Dillman uses "lamp post "uke" that just stand there and wait as opposed to someone that is doing it semi-seriously with a bit of speed.


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## RRouuselot (Sep 8, 2004)

:bs: 


			
				ppko said:
			
		

> No this is not what I see pressure point fighting as,1)_* but if you get someone that has been drinking than there Liver points are more sensitive,*_ but 2)_*if you get someone coming off of PCP than all the Yang points are shut down*_ you now have to be able to take out his Yin points we know this from some police officers in the NYPD that are with DKI as 3)_*they now use the points on the inside of the legs to subdue these people.*_ Like I said before when we first start learning we learn on stationary people but as we progress than so does our training best of luck


1) Based on who's qualified research?

2) "The yang points SHUT DOWN?" again....based on who's qualified research? Dillman?:lol:  

3) The points inside of the legs work fine for me anytime.


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## bignick (Sep 8, 2004)

i have a friend that's been doing ryukyu kempo since he was a kid(in mid 20's) now...i was talking to him about the video of the guy from chicago...i don't practice kyusho jutsu...but from what i heard from him it was just ridiculous....along with the no touch knockout...which i knew was ridiculous from the moment i saw it...

"Only 40% of people are susceptible..."  but they all happen to be in my classes


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## D.Cobb (Sep 9, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> No this is not what I see pressure point fighting as, but if you get someone that has been drinking than there Liver points are more sensitive, but if you get someone coming off of PCP than all the Yang points are shut down you now have to be able to take out his Yin points we know this from some police officers in the NYPD that are with DKI as they now use the points on the inside of the legs to subdue these people.  Like I said before when we first start learning we learn on stationary people but as we progress than so does our training best of luck



Sorry Dude!  I had you mistaken for someone who actually read 
(a) the response to their own post.
and 
(b)responded with answers to posts, that actually made sense

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Sep 9, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> and the stikes are actually more effective when the target is moving.....imagine a train hitting a wall at 50mph......then imagine two trains in a head on collision both going 50mph.......same kind of thing.
> This is why people have come from a Dillman Seminar and said that it didn't work on them. Dillman uses "lamp post "uke" that just stand there and wait as opposed to someone that is doing it semi-seriously with a bit of speed.


How right you are Robert!!
When your uke is just standing there, their nervous system is not fired up in any way, so to get a response you need to bash, ala G. Dillman.
This is known as blunt force trauma! I can get the same result with a baseball bat, and I wouldn't have to spend any money on years of training.

--Dave :asian:


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## bignick (Sep 9, 2004)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> This is known as blunt force trauma! I can get the same result with a baseball bat, and I wouldn't have to spend any money on years of training.
> 
> --Dave :asian:


also, in the baseball bat style....you'll find that every spot is an effective pressure point....


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## RRouuselot (Sep 9, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> also, in the baseball bat style....you'll find that every spot is an effective pressure point....


True that, but the dilemma is whether to use a wood or metal bat.


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## bignick (Sep 9, 2004)

depends on whether your in college or want to go pro...metal bats would be less likely to break when they come in contact with the top of the skull pressure point


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## RRouuselot (Sep 9, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> depends on whether your in college or want to go pro...metal bats would be less likely to break when they come in contact with the top of the skull pressure point


 
and they are easier to clean!!


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## Xequat (Sep 10, 2004)

LOL, I guess it depends on which points you want to attack.  If you attack wood pressure points, use a metal bat and if you attack earth-based pressure points, use the wood bat.  That's funny.

I do think, though that we should leave our minds open to new possibilities.  Martial arts is not only art, but also a science.  I don't know yet about all of the no-touch, use-the-force stuff yet, but just about anything's possible.





			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) Based on who's qualified research?
> 
> 2) "The yang points SHUT DOWN?" again....based on who's qualified research? Dillman?:lol:
> 
> 3) The points inside of the legs work fine for me anytime.


ppko was just saying that some police officer for NYPD discovered that it works for him.  If it works consistently, then there must be a logical reason.  Although the explanation of shutting down yang points doesn't make total sense to me either, it is at least an attempt to explain what someone has experienced to be true.  And why isn't Dillman a qualified researcher?  Or was that a joke...I've only been in MartialTalk for a month...been in martial arts about four years.  Also, nobody said that inside leg point wouldn't work all the time...he just indicated that they might be the only ones that work some of the time.  It's an explanation based on logic, but the parts of the argument that make up the logic might be kind of weird and hard to swallow for some.  Jury's still out for me.


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## ppko (Sep 10, 2004)

Xequat said:
			
		

> LOL, I guess it depends on which points you want to attack. If you attack wood pressure points, use a metal bat and if you attack earth-based pressure points, use the wood bat. That's funny.
> 
> I do think, though that we should leave our minds open to new possibilities. Martial arts is not only art, but also a science. I don't know yet about all of the no-touch, use-the-force stuff yet, but just about anything's possible.
> 
> ...


Oh now here is a man that understands how to read a post, thank you for clearing that up for the ones that are not able to understand what I have written. Welcome to MT by the way, and a very good post


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## RRouuselot (Sep 10, 2004)

Xequat said:
			
		

> LOL, I guess it depends on which points you want to attack. If you attack wood pressure points, use a metal bat and if you attack earth-based pressure points, use the wood bat. That's funny.
> 
> I do think, though that we should leave our minds open to new possibilities. Martial arts is not only art, but also a science. I don't know yet about all of the no-touch, use-the-force stuff yet, but just about anything's possible.
> 
> ...


  Welcome to MT. 

  To answer some questions about credentials.
 Unlike several other people on MT, ppko and Dillman have no formal training, no license, and very little knowledge of TCM as can be seen by ppko's statement about the yang points shutting down. 

  1) if it works all the time then how do we know it was due to the yang points "shutting down"....

 2) actually it's not. It's based on one untrained person teaching another and in turn he teaches another and so on.....until what you have is a large group that sounds convincing because of the sheer numbers in their group but in actual fact have only learned a few terms and points and can spout them out to make it sound as if they know what they are talking about. It's quite convincing to people that have no idea about such things. However, to trained people it sounds like chibberish. 
 It is exactly due to this kind of irresponsible comments that for years people had to un-learn certain myths about karate, kung fu etc regarding practice and the history of those arts. Example: I cant count how many times I have seen on this site and others about the Sai being used as a farm tool to plant rice and Karate was developed by farmers. All of which had to be painstakingly disproved by others.


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## Turbo (Sep 10, 2004)

Bruce Lee didnt have very much formal training either, but he knew what he was talking about!

Although I dont care much for how Dillman runs his organization, I would never say he  has *very little knowledge of TCM*.  And to use kyusho, _who says you need to be a god at TCM?  _

And there are lots of people with lots of formal training that joined DKI after being instructors in other styles.


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## D.Cobb (Sep 10, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> True that, but the dilemma is whether to use a wood or metal bat.



Also, you'd have to ask, does the 5 elements come into play?:idunno:
If you chose one over the other, would have to change targets to get a better result?

--Dave


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## bignick (Sep 10, 2004)

well, of course....and also times of day...the aluminum meridian will be more sensitive during parts of the day...opposite that of the wood meridian..,.


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## D.Cobb (Sep 11, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> well, of course....and also times of day...the aluminum meridian will be more sensitive during parts of the day...opposite that of the wood meridian..,.



 I love it!


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## D.Cobb (Sep 11, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Welcome to MT.
> 
> To answer some questions about credentials.
> Unlike several other people on MT, ppko and Dillman have no formal training, no license, and very little knowledge of TCM as can be seen by ppko's statement about the yang points shutting down.
> ...



Kind of like the old story of the Okinawan systems being created to fight off the invading samurai.
It never happened. The Japanese were invited in by the king of the Ryukyu kingdom, and he actually decreed that the Ryukyu Kingdom was to be annexed to Japan.

What is it that they say about "one mans truth"?


--Dave


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## Xequat (Sep 11, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Welcome to MT.
> 
> To answer some questions about credentials.
> Unlike several other people on MT, ppko and Dillman have no formal training, no license, and very little knowledge of TCM as can be seen by ppko's statement about the yang points shutting down.
> ...


Thanks, I like it.  

I have a question, and I don't mean to sound accusatory or challenging, but how do you know that the yang points don't shut down?  I know that seems like a pretty simple question at first, but if it works for a cop on the street then either there is something to it or the cop was full of it.  I doubt that anyone on this site would knowingly post false info, but like I said, I'm new here.  I don't really know ppko that well, so do you know that he has no formal training or do you just say that because he said something that doesn't make sense.  Either way's fine, just wanted clarification, because if he mentioned that someone in his organization gave this info about the yang points, then that means that he has some kind of training.  I'm not sure how you define formal.  

1)  We don't.  He's just saying that the drugs only shut down the yang points.  Like when you block your head, it leaves an opening to the body.  A shot to the body will always be a good thing, whether the head is blocked or not, but a shot to the head (or the yang points)  when blocked is pretty ineffective.  At least that's how I read it.


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## ppko (Sep 11, 2004)

Xequat said:
			
		

> Thanks, I like it.
> 
> I have a question, and I don't mean to sound accusatory or challenging, but how do you know that the yang points don't shut down? I know that seems like a pretty simple question at first, but if it works for a cop on the street then either there is something to it or the cop was full of it. I doubt that anyone on this site would knowingly post false info, but like I said, I'm new here. I don't really know ppko that well, so do you know that he has no formal training or do you just say that because he said something that doesn't make sense. Either way's fine, just wanted clarification, because if he mentioned that someone in his organization gave this info about the yang points, then that means that he has some kind of training. I'm not sure how you define formal.
> 
> 1) We don't. He's just saying that the drugs only shut down the yang points. Like when you block your head, it leaves an opening to the body. A shot to the body will always be a good thing, whether the head is blocked or not, but a shot to the head (or the yang points) when blocked is pretty ineffective. At least that's how I read it.


Here is the thing Xequat we have to take peoples word for it when it comes to this topic of debate, for one reason 1) what am I expected to do go out and look for someone to fight that is coming off of PCP just so I can proove it, I am not the type of person that would do that.  But thank you for your delightful posts


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## RRouuselot (Sep 11, 2004)

Xequat said:
			
		

> Thanks, I like it.
> 
> _*1)I have a question, and I don't mean to sound accusatory or challenging, but how do you know that the yang points don't shut down?*_  I know that seems like a pretty simple question at first, *2)but if it works for a cop on the street then either there is something to it or the cop was full of it.* I doubt that anyone on this site would knowingly post false info, but like I said, I'm new here. I don't really know ppko that well, so do you know that he has no formal training or do you just say that because he said something that doesn't make sense. Either way's fine, just wanted clarification, because if he mentioned that someone in his organization gave this info about the yang points, then that means that he has some kind of training. I'm not sure how you define formal.
> 
> 1)  We don't.  _*3)He's just saying that the drugs only shut down the yang points.*_ Like when you block your head, it leaves an opening to the body. A shot to the body will always be a good thing, whether the head is blocked or not, but a shot to the head (or the yang points) when blocked is pretty ineffective. At least that's how I read it.


 1) Because I am a licensed TCM practitioner. Unlike Dillman and his ilk I actually bothered to go to school and learn about TCM.

 2) More than likely it worked for some other reason or a combination of reasons. Plus the fact that getting hit on the inside of the leg works about 99% on most people if done correctly.

 3) If the whole Yang system shut down the man would be dead or almost dead and have very little, if any, energy to fight with someone.


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## ppko (Sep 12, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) Because I am a licensed TCM practitioner. Unlike Dillman and his ilk I actually bothered to go to school and learn about TCM.
> 
> 2) More than likely it worked for some other reason or a combination of reasons. Plus the fact that getting hit on the inside of the leg works about 99% on most people if done correctly.
> 
> 3) If the whole Yang system shut down the man would be dead or almost dead and have very little, if any, energy to fight with someone.


Lets just say that you can not hurt the Yang points than does that work for you, who says that people in DKI are not licensed TCM I may not be but I know that Song Pak is and I know of others that are working towards it.


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## RRouuselot (Sep 12, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Lets just say that you can not hurt the Yang points than does that work for you, who says that people in DKI are not licensed TCM I may not be but I know that Song Pak is and _*I know of others that are working towards it.*_


 
Hmmmmmm......gee if I am sick or just wanted a consultation would I go to a person that is "working towards" an MD or someone that has already got a degree......


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## RRouuselot (Sep 12, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> *Lets just say that you can not hurt the Yang points than does that work for you,* who says that people in DKI are not licensed TCM I may not be but I know that Song Pak is and I know of others that are working towards it.


 
What are you trying to say? Your sentence is unclear.......:idunno:


----------



## RRouuselot (Sep 12, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Lets just say that you can not hurt the Yang points than does that work for you, who says that people in DKI are not licensed TCM I may not be but I know that Song Pak is and _*I *_know of others that are working towards it.


 
Really?? Which accredited school are *you* studying at?


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## Turbo (Sep 12, 2004)

If you use Heart 6 and Lung 7 would GB12 be a good strike....could you please explain this in detail...and if you have a good pic of gb12 can you post it.  

I know this is cycle of destruction, but I want to know why they didnt hit GB20 instead.Thanks


----------



## ppko (Sep 13, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Really?? Which accredited school are *you* studying at?


When did I ever say that I was studying to be licensed in TCM I didn't it is not my problem that you have reading comprension of a 5 year old now is it.  What does it matter if people are working towards it or not, how does this make you an expert in everything. Like I said we do have people that are licensed in TCM already so now what are you going to say, let me guess that yours was better.  Now let me explain the Yang point theory when a person is coming off of PCP (so that you can catch back up with us), using the Yang points you will not be able to subdue a person on PCP as it will not bother that person.  Man for a person with a IQ of 164 I would think you would be able to read my posts better.


----------



## ppko (Sep 13, 2004)

Turbo said:
			
		

> If you use Heart 6 and Lung 7 would GB12 be a good strike....could you please explain this in detail...and if you have a good pic of gb12 can you post it.
> 
> I know this is cycle of destruction, but I want to know why they didnt hit GB20 instead.Thanks


This may or may not work, but my question is whom are you talking with Turbo.  I would probably go for GB 20 instead I believe that GB 12 is in the hairline and it may be harder to put someone out this way, I don't know until I have not tried it but in theory it would work.  I will have to try this and get back to you because Iam pretty sure that it is a rub point (GB12 that is):ultracool


----------



## RRouuselot (Sep 13, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> When did I ever say that I was studying to be licensed in TCM I didn't it is not my problem that you have reading comprension of a 5 year old now is it. What does it matter if people are working towards it or not, how does this make you an expert in everything. Like I said we do have people that are licensed in TCM already so now what are you going to say, let me guess that yours was better. Now let me explain the Yang point theory when a person is coming off of PCP (so that you can catch back up with us), using the Yang points you will not be able to subdue a person on PCP as it will not bother that person. Man for a person with a IQ of 164 I would think you would be able to read my posts better.


 
Let's see....first you said it "shut down" the Yang system now your saying something else......I think I read your posts just fine......I can certainly find all the BS pretty easy anyway.


----------



## ppko (Sep 13, 2004)

fir





			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Let's see....first you said it "shut down" the Yang system now your saying something else......I think I read your posts just fine......I can certainly find all the BS pretty easy anyway.


I am sorry if I did not word it prperly the first time, I should have worded it better.  But anyway you have fun doing things your way and I will have fun doing them my way.:moon:


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## Turbo (Sep 13, 2004)

It was in a description on how to use Cycle of Destruction. I too would try the gb20 first. I was wondering if the point has any other properties that might effect the cycle making it a better choice. I think I have been hitting the gb20 to hard, I notice when I hit points on the head that you have to hit them kinda light or you get little to no effect (besides the obvious).

Thanks for the help PPKO....*Man do you ever catch a break at this forum*???


----------



## Sarah (Sep 13, 2004)

Turbo said:
			
		

> It was in a description on how to use Cycle of Destruction. I too would try the gb20 first. I was wondering if the point has any other properties that might effect the cycle making it a better choice. I think I have been hitting the gb20 to hard, I notice when I hit points on the head that you have to hit them kinda light or you get little to no effect (besides the obvious).
> 
> Thanks for the help PPKO....*Man do you ever catch a break at this forum*???


I think Joe gets a bit of a hard time, but is always helpful and free with his advice.


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## ppko (Sep 14, 2004)

Turbo said:
			
		

> It was in a description on how to use Cycle of Destruction. I too would try the gb20 first. I was wondering if the point has any other properties that might effect the cycle making it a better choice. I think I have been hitting the gb20 to hard, I notice when I hit points on the head that you have to hit them kinda light or you get little to no effect (besides the obvious).
> 
> Thanks for the help PPKO....*Man do you ever catch a break at this forum*???


LOL I guess not, but thanks for noticing.  It all depends on how hard you hit the other points (especially true in class) try using a hard, hard, soft hits, eventually you just have to go by feel. try this out and tell me the results.


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## ppko (Sep 14, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> I think Joe gets a bit of a hard time, but is always helpful and free with his advice.


Thank you Sarah, I try my best.  I may not be the best at wording things but I do try.


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## Raewyn (Sep 14, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Thank you Sarah, I try my best.  I may not be the best at wording things but I do try.


 Hiya PPKO

How exact do you have to be when nailing pressure points ie when you wanna hit some one, do you need to be exact when you are striking them or can you get them in the area in a round about way??


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## Turbo (Sep 14, 2004)

*Raisin-*I have been told that your accuracy is important, but your energy transfer and intent are more important....some points, I find you need to be more accurate than others.  


*PPKO-*  Lets say I am holding the L8 that is probably considered light and I hit lung 5 hard then hit Gb20 light, would that work or should I just hit two arm points like pericardium, lung then wood using your idea from earlier????  

Thanks--I apprieciate the help!


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## ppko (Sep 15, 2004)

Raisin said:
			
		

> Hiya PPKO
> 
> How exact do you have to be when nailing pressure points ie when you wanna hit some one, do you need to be exact when you are striking them or can you get them in the area in a round about way??


The area of activaion for a PP is aboutthe size of a quarter so no you do no have to be exact, although it does help the effect if you are exact.


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## ppko (Sep 15, 2004)

Turbo said:
			
		

> Raisin-I have been told that your accuracy is important, but your energy transfer and intent are more important....some points, I find you need to be more accurate than others.
> 
> 
> PPKO- Lets say I am holding the L8 that is probably considered light and I hit lung 5 hard then hit Gb20 light, would that work or should I just hit two arm points like pericardium, lung then wood using your idea from earlier????
> ...


Well like I said before it goes on feel, remember that in class it is harder to get a KO.  The sequince that you described i may be better to hit LI 18.  Just a quick thought though "do not do these if you do not know how to properly revive the person, or without a certified instructor"


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## Turbo (Sep 21, 2004)

I didnt get results any different than usual.  I have  a nother question that might solve my problem with GB20.  I have two locations at the base of the skull, and one that says two fingers down from the base of the skull...so I am interested in what everyone else thinks about gb20's location.  I would be grateful for any help...Thanks


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## ppko (Sep 22, 2004)

Turbo said:
			
		

> I didnt get results any different than usual. I have a nother question that might solve my problem with GB20. I have two locations at the base of the skull, and one that says two fingers down from the base of the skull...so I am interested in what everyone else thinks about gb20's location. I would be grateful for any help...Thanks


Ask your instructor to tell you as it is hard for me to explain on the net.  But like I said before you should not try these without a certified instructor,  as you have to worry about angle and direction is it a rub touch or hit point there is a lot to worry about when doing these techniques for the first time, and finally last but definately most important you have to know how to revive the person.


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## Turbo (Sep 22, 2004)

I already know how to do the head, lung, and heart revival along with restoration.  I am a 1st kyu In Ryu Kyu Kempo (Dillman). It has been 7years since I practiced consistantly, and I only got a couple stomach 5 KO's level two at most.  I have been training JKD (Full Instructor)and Jujitsu (2nd Dan)because of lack of real kyusho instruction.  Even thou I was training JKD and Jujitsu I still worked the points, but was never trying for a KO.  I got back into it a couple months ago and trying to refresh or catch up again.  

The stuff that is being practiced now blows me away compared to the stuff back in the mid 90's.  The problem is where I live and there is no seminars or Instructors close, that I know of.
PPKO if you dont feel good with talking about it on a open forum private message me.  Thanks


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## D.Cobb (Sep 23, 2004)

Turbo said:
			
		

> I already know how to do the head, lung, and heart revival along with restoration.  I am a 1st kyu In Ryu Kyu Kempo (Dillman). It has been 7years since I practiced consistantly, and I only got a couple stomach 5 KO's level two at most.  I have been training JKD (Full Instructor)and Jujitsu (2nd Dan)because of lack of real kyusho instruction.  Even thou I was training JKD and Jujitsu I still worked the points, but was never trying for a KO.  I got back into it a couple months ago and trying to refresh or catch up again.
> 
> The stuff that is being practiced now blows me away compared to the stuff back in the mid 90's.  The problem is where I live and there is no seminars or Instructors close, that I know of.
> PPKO if you dont feel good with talking about it on a open forum private message me.  Thanks




Give these guys a call.

www.kyusho.com

Some of them are ex Dillman, and some have been doing their own thing for years. They might have someone, or know of someone in your neck of the woods. They are non political, and don't care who you train or have trained with. Their aim is to teach what you guys refer to as kyusho, in motion.

Good luck

--Dave


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## ppko (Sep 23, 2004)

Turbo said:
			
		

> I already know how to do the head, lung, and heart revival along with restoration. I am a 1st kyu In Ryu Kyu Kempo (Dillman). It has been 7years since I practiced consistantly, and I only got a couple stomach 5 KO's level two at most. I have been training JKD (Full Instructor)and Jujitsu (2nd Dan)because of lack of real kyusho instruction. Even thou I was training JKD and Jujitsu I still worked the points, but was never trying for a KO. I got back into it a couple months ago and trying to refresh or catch up again.
> 
> The stuff that is being practiced now blows me away compared to the stuff back in the mid 90's. The problem is where I live and there is no seminars or Instructors close, that I know of.
> PPKO if you dont feel good with talking about it on a open forum private message me. Thanks


What we do now is a lot better, I have sent you a private message so you should be recieving that soon but try to get a hold of him and he will help you out a lot better than anyone else that I can think of.


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