# Rope arts/Hojojustsu?



## qi-tah (Aug 14, 2007)

Just idely wondering, has anyone out there come across hojojutsu (Japanese "art of rope tying", more info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hojōjutsu) as part of their school's curriculum, or even being taught alone? What about other rope restraint arts? Do any other martial arts contain them?


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## Nomad (Aug 14, 2007)

In our school, we have had occasional seminars on Hojojutsu from one or two "resident experts" on the subject.  I'm not sure you could base an entire curriculum around them, although stranger things have probably been done.


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## qi-tah (Aug 15, 2007)

Nomad said:


> In our school, we have had occasional seminars on Hojojutsu from one or two "resident experts" on the subject. I'm not sure you could base an entire curriculum around them, although stranger things have probably been done.


 
Cool! What sort of stuff do you learn in these seminars? Do you learn "fast tying", where you are working against a resistant opponent? I am very interested to learn something like this, but can't find anything in my part of oz, or all of Australia for that matter! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I've tried some self-taught stuff with complient partners, but that only takes you so far... i know it's probably a bit of huberis to try to learn something like this with no background in Jujitsu, but i can imagine a rope restraint art blending in quite nicely with Aikido (which i have done a bit of) or even Shuai jiao (Chinese fast wrestling)...

If you don't mind me asking, who are yr "resident experts?" Are they a part of yr school, or are they brought in from elsewhere for a couple of sessions? What is their experience with Hojojutsu?

Great to hear that the art is still being taught btw! :asian:


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## Mr. E (Aug 16, 2007)

Seriously, why bother learning this type of stuff if it is not required of you in your art?

A couple decades ago, the need for this type of thing presented itself at the same time as a chance to learn it came up.

But if I were to join some of my friends in Afghanistan today, I probably would not bother brushing up too much on what I learned. Instead I would just go with modern, light weight, plastic cuffs.

Why would you need this information? A LEO or someone in the military has tools. A doorman does not need it. The same goes for a civilian. I look at what you wrote and have to wonder. 



> I've tried some self-taught stuff with complient partners, but that only takes you so far...



I can't be the only person who looks at the above and wonder what kind of relationship you have with your partner. I could link to a number of sites on the internet that teach this type of thing- but would be banned for doing so because martialtalk is a family site.

So since you do not practice a centuries- old tradition that has it as part of its required curriculum, why bother learning this type of thing unless you want to use it for some very adult type of fun?

*Someone* had to raise the question.


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## qi-tah (Aug 16, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> Seriously, why bother learning this type of stuff if it is not required of you in your art?


 
For the same reason as anyone who decides that they'd like to train more than one art... i'm interested in it.



Mr. E said:


> A couple decades ago, the need for this type of thing presented itself at the same time as a chance to learn it came up.
> 
> But if I were to join some of my friends in Afghanistan today, I probably would not bother brushing up too much on what I learned. Instead I would just go with modern, light weight, plastic cuffs.
> 
> Why would you need this information? A LEO or someone in the military has tools. A doorman does not need it. The same goes for a civilian. I look at what you wrote and have to wonder.


 
By the same token, i have no need to learn ba gua weapons either, which are quite unique and don't really have any parallels in common, everyday items. Not many ppl walk around with double handed broadswords these days, do they? But i'm not really that into learning such weapons for self-defence, i learn them because i'm interested in them, they teach me about different mechanics of bodily extension... and they're fun to play with. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



My interest in the rope comes partly from my interest in the internal  arts... as well as other CMA weapons such as the rope dart etc. The coiling and spiralling stuff in ba gua in particular, as well as the soft, pliable nature of rope made me wonder whether the rope could be used as an "internal arts weapon", so i've just gone off and done a bit of research and experimentation.



Mr. E said:


> I can't be the only person who looks at the above and wonder what kind of relationship you have with your partner. I could link to a number of sites on the internet that teach this type of thing- but would be banned for doing so because martialtalk is a family site.
> 
> So since you do not practice a centuries- old tradition that has it as part of its required curriculum, why bother learning this type of thing unless you want to use it for some very adult type of fun?
> 
> *Someone* had to raise the question.


 
I was talking about* training* partners, ok? Sheesh, mind out of the gutter, please! :shrug: Haven't you ever played around with new weapons and techniques just for the hell of it? And yeah, i got a lot of my information from Shibari sites, mainly because they were the most informative when it came to details. But obviously, the aims of Shibari are very different to combat restraint, which makes the information of limited value. Hence my question of whether anyone else had studied Hojojutsu or other martial rope arts. I simply don't know the extent of what's out there.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 16, 2007)

I think that if you are training in an older Japanese art then you will find this.  I know that I have experienced training in Hojojutsu within the Bujinkan.  Still Mr. E is right on the money in that it is not as practical as flex cuffs or handcuffs for that matter.


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## Monadnock (Aug 16, 2007)

Qi-tah, I would not worry about people telling you it is not practical in this day and age. If you want something else out of the arts, or just want to learn an older form of art, then that is great. A lot of times there are good teachings that go beyond the physical in those arts that too many people are too quick to toss aside. On the practicality part, a small section of rope fits better in your pocket and is more available than cuffs any day. And with your new found skills (should you find a teacher) you could probably tie someone up just as quick.

There are a few books on the art, like on budogu.com. They are hard to learn from. Multiply a sailor's knot-tieing book X 100 for difficulty. Usually Hojo Jutsu is an auxilliary art, and can be found in the Bujinkan and with some teachers of Shinto Muso-ryu as well. Fujita Seiko also put a book out. Most books focus on the complicated loopps and knots, and less on actually how to subdue them in the first place. But that you can find elsewhere.


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## zDom (Aug 16, 2007)

I think those are VERY cool skills and wish I had the opportunity to learn some.

While modern cuffs (plastic and metal) are superior, I'm don't have any. A length of rope or something near to it, such as a belt for example, can be found all sorts of places.

I'd rather have the skills and not need them than need the skills and not have them =)

Or, as Napoleon Dynamite pointed out, girls like guys with skills


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## OUMoose (Aug 16, 2007)

Would all the people who train in sword arts please put down your swords?  I'm sorry to let you know, but people don't use swords anymore, so your skills are obsolete and unnecessary.  Oh, same for the people who train in arts that involve Fan forms, Spears, Tiger-hook swords, and pretty much every other martial weapon on the planet.  Just give it up.  In fact, people don't really do this thing called "punching" anymore... they just shoot you, so all that boxing and stuff has to go too...

*rolls eyes and turns off the sarcasm button*

Just because it's not "required" doesn't mean it's not interesting.  Qi-tah, I wish I had some better references for you, but the ones I could find were sketchy at best.  If you do find some decent stuff, please share it with the rest of us.


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## Mr. E (Aug 16, 2007)

OUMoose said:


> Would all the people who train in sword arts please put down your swords?  I'm sorry to let you know, but people don't use swords anymore, so your skills are obsolete and unnecessary.  Oh, same for the people who train in arts that involve Fan forms, Spears, Tiger-hook swords, and pretty much every other martial weapon on the planet.  Just give it up.  In fact, people don't really do this thing called "punching" anymore... they just shoot you, so all that boxing and stuff has to go too...
> 
> *rolls eyes and turns off the sarcasm button*



You missed the point.

If you study an art that has sword, or hojojutsu, then it is very natural to learn those skills. But if you study aikido, as the original poster does, and then teach yourself bagua weapons (as he seems to do) then that is another matter.

If it is in the school, fine. But wanting to learn how to tie someone up and *just that skill* is the thing I find strange. These skills can be harmful to others and I would not advise learning them from a book or web site. If you want to learn, study the whole thing in context from a skilled teacher.


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## Mr. E (Aug 16, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> If you study an art that has sword, or hojojutsu, then it is very natural to learn those skills. But if you study aikido, as the original poster does, and then teach yourself bagua weapons (as he seems to do) then that is another matter.



Ok, correction on my part. These are the arts that he lists as studying.



> Ba gua zhang, Xing Yi, Taji, Aikido



Ok, so he is not teaching himself bagua weapons. But my point remains the same. 

OUMoose, I happen to study the sword. I started learning it because the tradition I studied had is as part of what a student was supposed to learn at a certain level. Since then, I have found that learning the sword has helped my empty hand aspects and my understanding of the art.

But let us say that someone with a Shotokan background wanted to learn the Chinese _jiang_ without going to a teacher. Wouldn't that be something you would discourage?

The jujutsu styles I have studied with hojojutsu are totally different from the arts he listed. The hold- downs of the jujutsu styles with hojojutsu all seem to end up with the other guy face flat on the ground and his arms behind him. From there the hojojutsu is easy to apply. Without learning these types of holds IMO there is little relevence to hojojutsu and martial arts. Unlike sword, hojojutsu will not help your footwork and understanding of space.

And it can be dangerous. Some of the traditional ties I learned were set up so that if a person tried to struggle he would slowly choke himself unless he stopped. From what I have seen, these have been taken out of the modern "fun" versions of the art as practiced by people with different sexual tastes.

So you see why I do not see a _martial arts_ reason to learn this type of thing. There is no use for it for most people and it is not part of a tradtion he does and thus will not help the arts he studies. I honestly think it is like someone studying Shotokan picking up a book on using the Jiang and teaching themselves.


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## qi-tah (Aug 17, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> Ok, so he is not teaching himself bagua weapons. But my point remains the same.


 
You weren't to know, but i'm actually a she. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






Mr. E said:


> The jujutsu styles I have studied with hojojutsu are totally different from the arts he listed. The hold- downs of the jujutsu styles with hojojutsu all seem to end up with the other guy face flat on the ground and his arms behind him. From there the hojojutsu is easy to apply. Without learning these types of holds IMO there is little relevence to hojojutsu and martial arts. Unlike sword, hojojutsu will not help your footwork and understanding of space.


 
This is more like it! I have tried tying techniques from positions such as a Nikkyo pin, which sounds similar to what you mentioned. But the point that my empty hand skill sets probably need to be expanded to learn the proper application of Hojojutsu is well taken. :asian:



Mr. E said:


> And it can be dangerous. Some of the traditional ties I learned were set up so that if a person tried to struggle he would slowly choke himself unless he stopped. From what I have seen, these have been taken out of the modern "fun" versions of the art as practiced by people with different sexual tastes.
> 
> So you see why I do not see a _martial arts_ reason to learn this type of thing. There is no use for it for most people and it is not part of a tradtion he does and thus will not help the arts he studies. I honestly think it is like someone studying Shotokan picking up a book on using the Jiang and teaching themselves.


 
Mate, i agree with you totally about learning a whole art solely from written sources. But with respect, that's not what i am doing. I totally recognise that my understanding of hojojutsu is very limited - i'm certainly not going to go running around with a spare pair of shoelaces in my pocket thinking i can tie ppl up! I totally get that the sources i have been able to find have been degraded. I would like to find instruction, but haven't been very successful so far and didn't even know if the art was still being taught. Hence again my posting here. The safety issues that you mentioned re neck ropes and stress positions i am actually aware of, one important peice of information i did take away from the Shibari info was to have first aid kit with a strong pair of saftey scissors on hand during practice. I do hope that this allays yr concerns somewhat.


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## qi-tah (Aug 18, 2007)

Ack, so caught up in responding to Mr. E that i forgot to thank everyone else for their (very helpful) responses! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Monadnock, that Fujita Seiko book looks beautiful, pity i can't raise/justify the $200 odd Aussie dollars to order it at the mo! Ah well. Sounds like i ought to have a chat with some Melbourne Bujinkan or Jujitsu ppl in any case.


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## Mr. E (Aug 18, 2007)

qi-tah said:


> You weren't to know, but i'm actually a she.



If you wanted to keep my mind out of the gutter, you should have let me continue my ignorance. :whip1: What can I say, it is my fault I have the images I do.

I think I should point out that I have very real concerns about what you want. I know you only want to fill an interest, a curiosity. No one will be hurt and no harm will come to anyone. It is just my nature to deal with things relating to violence and its tools through the ages a bit more seriously than most. Please take a look at this thread I started to see how I react and that I am consistent with how I react.

But... if you are going to go through with this, I may be able to help. I still advise against it. But if you are going to go ahead, maybe I can help you avoid some problems and lesson your chance of accidently harming someone. Please PM me if you are willing to tell me more about your reasons and the sources you have. I don't think posting links and such in the open would be the best choice on a family site.

Again, what you want to learn can be dangerous. I really think there are better uses for your time. There is a dark side to all this and it has nothing to do with sex. Think well about it before you do something that could cause injury to others.


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## qi-tah (Aug 19, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> But... if you are going to go through with this, I may be able to help. I still advise against it. But if you are going to go ahead, maybe I can help you avoid some problems and lesson your chance of accidently harming someone. Please PM me if you are willing to tell me more about your reasons and the sources you have. I don't think posting links and such in the open would be the best choice on a family site.
> 
> Again, what you want to learn can be dangerous. I really think there are better uses for your time. There is a dark side to all this and it has nothing to do with sex. Think well about it before you do something that could cause injury to others.


 
Mate, yr concern is redundant... the rope practice sessions i mentioned took place a couple of years ago and i've not practiced it with a training partner since then. Also, as i previously stated, i was (and am) well aware of the potential dangers of working with rope as a weapon - you are not telling me anything new. One of the reasons why my training partner and i gave up on Hojojutsu then was that we very quickly reached the limit of what we could safely practice without qualified instruction. Doesn't stop me being interested in theory or history of the art though... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Thanks for the offer of help, but if i am going to _practically_ explore Hojojutsu again, the next logical step would be to do so under the instruction of a flesh-and-blood, qualified, experienced instructor with the appropriate insurance policy. Assuming i can find someone suitable, that is!


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## AbsZero (Oct 9, 2008)

Here I put some useful links of instructional video:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68130


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## hogstooth (Oct 22, 2008)

Wow Mr. E you are being pretty harsh. In your way of thinking why take up any traditional weapon. It's not like any of us are going to be walking around with a pair of kama's, Tuifa, Sai's or a Rokushaku Bo or Nunchacku. Or how about a chinese Dao or rope dart or better yet a naginata(that would get you arrested for inciting panic). 
The point of learning a weapon like these is just that, Learning. Who cares if he never gets to use a rope in a real life situation. If he is interested in learning then good for him. I personally don't have an interest in it but that doesn't give me the right to crap on his interests. Have an open mind. The world is full of people that don't think like you. Would you want someone to crap all over your interests or belittle them? Lighten up a little.


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## David Weatherly (Dec 17, 2008)

I've studied Hojojutsu.  There aren't many resources available in english.  Try this dvd:

http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=22911

David


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## SteffenBerg (Dec 17, 2008)

As mentioned some koryu traditions (classical Japanese arts) have Hojojutsu as part of their curriculum such as Takenouchi Ryu, Kashima Shin Ryu (known as Tasuki Dori) and Shinto Muso Ryu (taught as a separate art called Ittatsu Ryu). 

Other arts such as Yanagi Ryu Aikijutsu (Don Angier) also have a Hojo Jutsu curriculum.

Here's a Hojojutsu demo from the Yoshida-ha Bujutsu guys (these guys are graduated students of Don Angier):






Hope this helps.

Happy Holidays,
Stef


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## PoolMan (Sep 23, 2012)

Hojojutsu is a great art to learn. It is best used in tandem with jujitsu/jujutsu or a similar art where you have control of your opponents wrist. Once you have control of their wrist it is easy to hog tie them LOL. And if you want to carry something light on you for this try a length of parachute cord. It is both light and strong. Plus it can be used for a multitude of other things, unlike handcuffs that are a bit more limited.


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## Trapper (Aug 5, 2013)

I am a big fan of Hojojutsu.  I have taken several classes on it years ago but I must say I am really out of practice.  If you are looking for information you need to look at books out of Japan.  I have many but the best one I have actually has you practice on sticks in order to become proficient with all the different knots and where you loop and tie the rope around the limbs and body.  The other cool thing is it has LOTS of pictures.  I don't know the name because it is written in Japanese but if you like I can scan in the cover and maybe someone can translate the name for you.

As far as someone saying it is out of date and there is no reason to use it.  I would say anything in Martial Art's is out of date but that does not mean it is not cool. And by cool I mean awesome!


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