# Augustine Fong - Siu Nim Tao



## Xue Sheng (Jul 26, 2012)

I was looking for different versions of Siu Nim Tao that come from the students of Ip Man for no real reason other than I had tiome to kill and I thought it might be interesting.

I found this one from Augustine Fong

My Siu Nim Tao comes from Ip Ching (who I guess technically would be my Shigong) and it is a little different from this but I like this... a lot.


----------



## wtxs (Jul 26, 2012)

Thanks for sharing, noticed some minor variations.  However, I do like the added movements, what looks like an short stroke tan (or finger thrust) from the fook and the crossing vertical fists.


----------



## Eric_H (Jul 26, 2012)

I will never be able to agree with a low tan sao like that.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jul 26, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> I will never be able to agree with a low tan sao like that.




That's ok Eric- he is not doing HFY


----------



## Vajramusti (Jul 26, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> I was looking for different versions of Siu Nim Tao that come from the students of Ip Man for no real reason other than I had tiome to kill and I thought it might be interesting.
> 
> I found this one from Augustine Fong
> 
> My Siu Nim Tao comes from Ip Ching (who I guess technically would be my Shigong) and it is a little different from this but I like this... a lot.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That video is about 30 years old. Yes there are differences.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 26, 2012)

Has his Siu Nim Tao changed much since the video?


----------



## Vajramusti (Jul 26, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Has his Siu Nim Tao changed much since the video?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visually about the same -much progress in shared analysis and applications.


----------



## Eric_H (Jul 26, 2012)

Vajramusti said:


> That's ok Eric- he is not doing HFY



I know, there will always be lineage differences, but at some point we have to start cutting away the personal expressions of WC an try and boil it down to what works and what doesn't. I've never run across someone who can make a taan sao like is demo'd in SNT version on the video work against 3d energy. From my standpoint that makes it unsound structurally. Usually, a lower taan like that only works in one direction and is easy to compromise on the side (typically via ngoi jut or grab). 

FWIW, Sifu Fong is reputed to be a very skilled dude, nobody I know who has met him argues that. I'd rather discuss the mechanics than the man.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 26, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> I know, there will always be lineage differences, but at some point we have to start cutting away the personal expressions of WC an try and boil it down to what works and what doesn't. .



Didn't they call that Jun Fan Gong Fu


----------



## Vajramusti (Jul 26, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Didn't they call that Jun Fan Gong Fu




What works? For sure


----------



## Vajramusti (Jul 26, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> I know, there will always be lineage differences, but at some point we have to start cutting away the personal expressions of WC an try and boil it down to what works and what doesn't. I've never run across someone who can make a taan sao like is demo'd in SNT version on the video work against 3d energy. From my standpoint that makes it unsound structurally. Usually, a lower taan like that only works in one direction and is easy to compromise on the side (typically via ngoi jut or grab).
> 
> FWIW, Sifu Fong is reputed to be a very skilled dude, nobody I know who has met him argues that. I'd rather discuss the mechanics than the man.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It works for those who have trained with it. It is not a fixed mechanical technique When done right it devlops attributes that leads to varied applications.
Again-it's noi HFY.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 27, 2012)

Last night I started to feel that the video I started this with did look familiar so I went through my DVDs and it was not there so I then thought I was likely just crazy&#8230; but then I went to the old box of VHS tapes and there it was, the Sil Lum Tao video of Augustine Fong&#8230;. And that was from at least 20 years ago... although the me being crazy bits still applies


----------



## Eric_H (Jul 27, 2012)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> It works for those who have trained with it. It is not a fixed mechanical technique When done right it devlops attributes that leads to varied applications.
> Again-it's noi HFY.



Joy,

I'm not implying a fixed mechanical technique either, I'm speaking of the capabilities of the structure to withstand energy challenge. If indeed a Wing Chun hallmark is "structural superiority" vs any other type of developed power it's something any WC guy should be able to question and have some ability to answer on the mechanics of doing so.

However, if the low taan sao in the form is not used as a guide for proper interception but rather an attribute building guide in this version of SNT - what are those attributes, and can those same attributes not be built with a more stable structure behind them? 

I'm really interested in what the attributes are, as in moy yat WC we didn't use low taan sao like this. It was done more collar bone level. Here's a clip that shows as such for reference:


----------



## Eric_H (Jul 27, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Didn't they call that Jun Fan Gong Fu



Guess I should have specified "what works inside the confines of the Wing Chun system" :ultracool


----------



## geezer (Jul 27, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> Joy,
> 
> I'm not implying a fixed mechanical technique either, I'm speaking of the capabilities of the structure to withstand energy challenge. If indeed a Wing Chun hallmark is "structural superiority" vs any other type of developed power ...



Eric, I've noticed as well that the _Augustine Fong_ lineage seems to favor a slightly lower tan-sau, and also a lower position for the man-sau / wu sau or "prefighting posture" used when squaring-off before engaging. On the other hand, I would hesitate to jump to negative conclusions. I find it's better to actually meet with a good practitioner of any system and ask them to demonstrate the technique in _application_ rather than to make assumptions. 

There are a lot of ways different WC/VT/WT groups apply energy and honestly I don't believe that there is one single "superior" structure that works equally well for everybody. Rather than looking at Wing Chun for it's "structural superiority," I look for "systemic integrity" or whether all the pieces are integrated seamlessly into the whole system ...like cogs in a well designed machine. Different machines=different gears. You can't judge the "correctness" of the part without watching it function in the machine.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jul 27, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> Joy,
> 
> I'm not implying a fixed mechanical technique either, I'm speaking of the capabilities of the structure to withstand energy challenge. If indeed a Wing Chun hallmark is "structural superiority" vs any other type of developed power it's something any WC guy should be able to question and have some ability to answer on the mechanics of doing so.
> 
> ...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Eric-the tan sao that good Fong student's do is structurally very sound. It is powered by the entire body structure. And it is a dynamic
 balanced motion and not a static hand shape.There is yin and yang balancing in
the hand structure and in the entire body structure. Tan sao is an active verb not a passive noun. Rather than being critical what i will say is that 
Fong Wing chun is neither HFY nor Moy Yat wing chun.

The SLT does not have footwork---it works on hand motions while developing the whole body stance and structure. Chum kiu gets one started with 
mobility of the whole structure, A dynamic tan sao can intercept force at multiple levels and can be part of attacking as well.

In this you tube blocking clip you can see many motions including the tan sao dynamics at varying levels.




joy


----------



## Nabakatsu (Jul 27, 2012)

The palm strike at the end was priceless, re-watched 5-6 times.


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 27, 2012)

I reckon as long as the Tan Sau is going forward and maintains some semblance of an angle , then it doesn't really matter exactly how high or low it is when doing the form.

Because regardless of what height you are doing it in the form , chi sau will be the litmus test.
In chi sau you will automatically get the Tan Sau up at an appropriate level otherwise the partner will keep punching over the top of it.


----------



## Nabakatsu (Jul 27, 2012)

I feel like there should be one best way to do everything, at least based on various body types and physical abilities. That being said I love being able to see the different expressions of wing chun, and I wouldn't want to give them up. It would be interesting to see a hybrid art. Have some of the most skilled practitioners from each lineage, and have em test their methods and see what works best. The mechanics behind some of our lineages are so different.. I wonder how that part could work it's way out.. sorry for going a bit off topic, I'll stop now!


----------



## geezer (Jul 28, 2012)

Nabakatsu said:


> I feel like *there should be one best way* to do everything, at least based on various body types and physical abilities...



But there's the rub, _Nabakatsu. _ How can there be one best way for everyone when we all have different body types, different physical strengths and deficits, different mentalities, different learning styles, and different personalities. What works well for one, may not work at all for another. From what folks say, even Grandmaster Ip recognized this when he taught. Most of us agree on what makes good WC/WT at the core, but beyond that?


----------



## Vajramusti (Jul 29, 2012)

geezer said:


> But there's the rub, _Nabakatsu. _ How can there be one best way for everyone when we all have different body types, different physical strengths and deficits, different mentalities, different learning styles, and different personalities. What works well for one, may not work at all for another. From what folks say, even Grandmaster Ip recognized this when he taught. Most of us agree on what makes good WC/WT at the core, but beyond that?


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A little different view: Ip Man did teach different aspects of wing chun to different people... but he had IMO an integrated view of wing chun himself.

Different views arise from 1. differences in training time including length and quality 2. people adding their own interpretations- well known differences in class notes
even in the same class.

Even now with so much proliferation of under prepared wing chun teachers-the differences seem to be widening. Also people often take the easy way out-
taking nearby instruction whereas better instruction could be further away.... insufficient "searching".


----------



## geezer (Jul 29, 2012)

Vajramusti said:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> A little different view: Ip Man did teach different aspects of wing chun to different people... but he had IMO an integrated view of wing chun himself.
> 
> ...



In this WC is not unlike many academic disciplines in which even the recognized leaders in a given field differ strongly in their opinions. And then there are a great many more who see themselves as experts, but are not even schooled in the basics well enough to distinguish between what is sound and what is rubbish.  I like to think that I'm a little better off than these benighted "internet warriors" since, at the very least, I'm aware of my ignorance!


----------



## Nabakatsu (Jul 29, 2012)

I think wing chun should retain it's self exploratory nature, there should be some openness to how one chooses to express themselves, so that they can be as efficient as possible, among other less martial reasons. That being said, I think there should be several set cores, covering personality, and physical ability, ect ect, that each new student should fit into more than others.. Seems like a lot of potential work, and there are bound to be different/same issues as to the more traditional method of training... but yeah. Maybe it would just change your focus on timing and tactics while still covering the other ground to make you a whole fighter... ideas?!


----------

