# I'm Not Dude!



## MA-Caver (Feb 13, 2008)

> *Officer Suspended After Skateboarder Rant*
> http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4282823&page=1
> 
> A veteran Baltimore police officer was suspended after a video appeared on YouTube showing him manhandling a 14-year-old skateboarder.
> ...


Watching the video, got this tightening in my stomach. The officer IMO was way out of line. Yelling and screaming and humiliating the kid for one thing. 
Good Morning America (can't get the link) was talking about how they don't know how old is the video, and what were circumstances before and then after the video. Granted they're right. 
But it seems to me that the kids were enroute to someplace and just didn't want to walk past the building when they could've easily skated past it. Interview with the kid (Bush) indicated that was their intent. 
Officer Rivieri probably did see an ordinance violation and was putting the stop to the kids, most likely with the intent to warn them. 
However; apparently he didn't like being called "Dude" and went off on that. 
Teenagers are still learning the ins and outs of human relations. Knowing when to "shut-up" and when and how to speak to authority figures can be a tough task and must be taught. Officer Rivieri took it upon himself to teach them. 


> "Obviously your parents don't put your foot in your butt quite enough, because you don't understand the meaning of the word respect".


 Made me wonder if Rivieri was a parent, because if he is then I'd feel sorry for HIS kids. 

I dunno, were this my kid I'd be screaming for Rivieri's head. This is a 14 yr. old boy he was dealing with. That should've been taken in consideration. "Dude" is a word used to refer to EVERYBODY by these kids. I had a friend a few years ago who used "Dude" and even called his own mother "Dude", it is not a disrespectful moniker by any means. True, calling the officer "Officer" or (better yet) "Sir" would've gone over better for the kids but still, I think a little tolerance and understanding of kids would've been helpful here as well. 
The site asks for people to vote on the rightness and wrongness of the Officer in question. 
Lets do that here with comments from both LEO's on the board and non-LEO's. 
DId the cop go too far? Was the kid being disrespectful? 
The kid *did* resist the officer's taking of his skateboard but it was a natural reaction because in a kid's mind (going a thousand miles per second) "how am I gonna get home?" & "I didn't do anything wrong, I was just skating here" and the kid is scared as well with an burly officer yelling at him. 
The cop was right in stopping the kids because they were in violation of a city ordinance (no skateboards) but he went beyond (personal) restraint, in yelling and verbally abusing the kid(s).


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## arnisador (Feb 13, 2008)

Wish more of the initial tussle was on camera as it isn't perfectly clear how the kid reacted to the officer's approach. The phrase that comes to my mind is "assault under color of law". Perhaps that's too strong, but between the verbal abuse and the concomitant physical interaction, it looks just awful.


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## terryl965 (Feb 13, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Wish more of the initial tussle was on camera as it isn't perfectly clear how the kid reacted to the officer's approach. The phrase that comes to my mind is "assault under color of law". Perhaps that's too strong, but between the verbal abuse and the concomitant physical interaction, it looks just awful.


 

I agre I would need to see all of it before passing judgement


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 13, 2008)

You know, I was taught from a very young age to respect my elders and call them Sir or Ma'am, to speak when spoken to etc. etc.

I feel sorry for the cop because of the backlash that is going to come from lax parents that cannot or will not teach their kids to respect all adults (so as to avoid confusion, I do mean those adults that are teachers, police, other parents, etc.) because of bureaucratic BS liberals removing parental rights under the guise of political correctness.

I can't stand mouthy kids, or the ones that act like this kid.

I don't think the cop overstepped his bounds.....
I want kids to be scared to break the law or disrespect police.....isn't that the idea?


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## Andrew Green (Feb 13, 2008)

I'd be more interested in kids respecting the law, and when LEO's act like that towards kids, that's just not going to happen.


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## MJS (Feb 14, 2008)

I agree it would be helpful to see more, but all we have to go on is what we saw.  IMHO, I think that the officer went a little over board with his actions.  Is it possible that the kid really didn't hear him due to the Ipod?  Sure.  Is it possible he heard him an ignored him?  Sure.  Lets give the kid the benefit of the doubt and say he didn't hear him.  Yelling and acting like the cop was doing, was not helping the situation.  

Now, my Grandfather was a cop, so I was raised with that respect and I agree that its the parents job to teach their kids about it, as well as right from wrong.  However, the reality of it is, many people don't.  This guy is demanding respect, much like some martial artists demand that we respect their high rank or years in the art.  We certainly can't force someone to respect us, thats common sense.  But, its not helping the situation to yell.  Even if there is no respect, having a calm attitude just may get you further than if you stoop to their level.  

I think that you'll get further by being nice, than you will if you come off like an ***.  An example.  I was on a ride along with one of the officers from the dept. where I work.  We got a call to a large apt. bldg because there were a group of kids outside, bouncing a basketball against the side of the bldg.  Apparently this was disturbing the resident inside and they were afraid the ball may break a window.  The cop got out of the car, called the kids over, explained things to them nicely, they excepted that, and moved along...to the basketball court.   He didn't yell, he didn't rip the ball from the kids hand and make everyone line up with hands on the wall.  

So I ask...why couldn't this officer do the same?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 14, 2008)

Well was this cop *professional* in how he handled the situation?

I would say no. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I think he let his emotions and a bad day go to far and well now is probably paying the price. 

We live in a global world now and your actions at anytime could be on video, tape, etc. and then broadcasted to the world.  If you are in a position of control, power, authority you need to take that position very seriously and not allow your emotions to run you.

The officer here could very easily have asked the kid's to come over, tell them they cannot skate board there and that they need to move on.  I do this all the time at my wife's office with skate boarders during the summer and the local LEO's do as well.  If you treat them with respect they in general will do the same.  Though of course there are always exceptions to the rule when they (the kid's) let their emotions run them.  

You are the adult so:

*Just do not let your emotions run you! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*


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## MA-Caver (Feb 14, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well was this cop *professional* in how he handled the situation?
> 
> I would say no.
> 
> ...


Yes, but how is it disrespectful to call a cop Dude? When it's commonly known that a lot of kids don't know better or don't THINK far enough ahead that they should be using more polite terms?  If they were older kids yeah, chew 'em out for not knowing better, but at 14 ... they know but it's not yet moved to the front of the brain so it's the first thing on their minds to use "sir" or "officer". Takes time.


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## CoryKS (Feb 14, 2008)

I couldn't figure out why the officer kept getting pissed off and shouting after he'd already finished yelling at the kid.  It finally occurred to me that the kid was still talking but you couldn't hear it in the video.  While I think that the officer behaved unprofessionally, I have a real problem with a kid who doesn't know the proper way to address police officers (or, for that matter, adults in general), and I have a problem with parents who don't teach their children these things.  

I don't want to live in a society where the kids think the police are just a bunch of fellow "dudes" that don't need to be taken seriously.  Consider that he told the officer that he was calling his mom.  Does he honestly think his mommy is a higher authority than the police?


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2008)

Is being called 'dude' really that disrespectful? Admittedly it's not a word we hear much over here but surely that's a word used by them to each other in the way that older people call each other mate,pal etc? As a female I get more than my share of men calling me, pet, dear, love, hen, chuck, duck,flower, my love or whater depending on where they come from. It depends on the situation how you take it - as a normal figure of speech, an insult or as being patronising.
I don't think I've ever looked to be respected as such, I love chatting to teenagers, they have such an interesting outlook on the world. I think though perhaps British policing methods are more talk orientated than American police, we do enjoy a lot of banter with the public.
I noticed a longtime ago that Americans use 'sir' and 'maam' far more than we do which to be honest is hardly ever. We do however have a huge amount of words that can be equally polite but don't sound it so perhaps to me 'dude' isn't very bad.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 14, 2008)

I imagine those kids called everyone "dude", friends more then anyone else.  All I saw was a real life version of Eric Cartman demanding they "Resepect my Authorita!"

They where kids, and in his eyes had no rights and deserved no respect.  Just that they obey his every word as if it was the word of God.


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## Drac (Feb 14, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I agre I would need to see all of it before passing judgement


 
Same here...



BlackCatBonz said:


> You know, I was taught from a very young age to respect my elders and call them Sir or Ma'am, to speak when spoken to etc. etc.


 
Does that teaching still occure??? I think not.. I have been cursed out by the 16 and under crowd MORE OFTEN than by adults..They have that "You can't do **** to me cause I'm a juvie attitude..




BlackCatBonz said:


> I want kids to be scared to break the law or disrespect police.....isn't that the idea?


 
Same here...


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## Andrew Green (Feb 14, 2008)

Drac said:


> BlackCatBonz said:
> 
> 
> > I want kids to be scared to break the law or disrespect police.....isn't that the idea?
> ...



I think everyone would want kids to be somewhat afraid of the consequences, however I think it would be equally important that they trust and respect LEO's.  That they are able to go to a cop when they need to, and expect to be treated with respect.

If that is the way kids view cops, they are not going to have that.  Cops are going to be seen as "bad guys."  When cops are seen as "the bad guys" there is a problem, a big one.

Chances are these kids where doing something wrong, at a minimum they where skateboarding where they shouldn't have been.  However the proper way to handle that is not yelling, screaming and threatening with physical violence.

But is skateboarding really that bad of a crime?  Is it worse then say speeding?  Yet I can't picture many cops acting like that towards a 40 year old with a history of speeding, and that person is causing more danger and also knows they aren't supposed to be doing it.


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## shesulsa (Feb 14, 2008)

I would want to see the whole thing before I judged too much ... but here are some things that bother me:

1.  Fourteen. Male. 'Nuff said.  When I was 14, my English teacher took me and a few others to her classroom at lunch for a few days to get us to stop saying "like" every other word, and ya know what? It was hard!  

2.  "If you were my kid I'd smack you ..." ... really?  Lesson #1: Respect and Fear are not the same nor are they necessarily interdependent.  There are several other things he said in that video that bother me.

3.  Although we can't see the boy when the meter maid ... er, I mean officer ... physically addresses him, I'm wondering why exactly he needed to do this.  Let's say the kid told him to **** off and flipped him off - he still could have gone about his job calmly, no?  If the kid flashed a knife, gun, fistpack or anything else, the officer *should* have pulled his firearm and ordered him to the ground.  So his insistence at going after the kid bothers me.

See, this is a good example of why kids don't and won't respect the law and law enforcement officers - this is not a good example.

AGAIN - caveat being that we did not see the entire incident.

AND - fair enough that this kid clearly did not know how to properly respond to an LEO.


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## Archangel M (Feb 14, 2008)

That dude has issues.

Didnt he notice the video camera?

In the grand scheme of things though this is going to get blown way out of proportion. A suspension or time/money docked perhaps, but ya know theres gonna be calls for his termination.


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## MJS (Feb 14, 2008)

In the Jena 6 thread, I posted a link to one of the suspects and how he beat someone up because he felt they did damage to his car.  It was suggested that because he didn't think much of the police, basically he took the law into his own hands.  

Now, in this case, you have some cop acting like a madman.  Is that really the message that we want to send to someone who we're hoping will respect the cops?  

Riding a skateboard isn't the crime of the century.  Was there no other way to address these kids?  Did the cop think that by acting like he did, he was re-enforcing respect?  Does anyone here think that his actions will re-enforce respect?  If so, how?


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## Archangel M (Feb 14, 2008)

Oh dont get me wrong, this cop needs to be placed on a midnight beat somewhere where god lost his shoes and loose some money to boot. Somehow I wonder if his little electric car, shorts and shirt detail wasnt a way of shelving him somewhere.

If this is a pattern with this guy, then I would amend my previous post and say its time for him to go.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 14, 2008)

MJS said:


> In the Jena 6 thread, I posted a link to one of the suspects and how he beat someone up because he felt they did damage to his car.  It was suggested that because he didn't think much of the police, basically he took the law into his own hands.
> 
> Now, in this case, you have some cop acting like a madman.  Is that really the message that we want to send to someone who we're hoping will respect the cops?
> 
> Riding a skateboard isn't the crime of the century.  Was there no other way to address these kids?  Did the cop think that by acting like he did, he was re-enforcing respect?  Does anyone here think that his actions will re-enforce respect?  If so, how?


I can say that, knowing kids as I do, another question to ask is how will those kids feel after the cop has finished his tirade and left them? How are they going to feel to him and police in general. By saying "I am OFFICER Rivieri he's lumping every one who wears a badge with him... in these kids eyes. We're talking kids. Wanting to break out and be on their own and experience the world and take it through their (immature/inexperienced) eyes/senses. 
So this experience with this officer over something this trivial (and yes it was trivial... wrong by society's standards, skateboarding where they shouldn't, but not a heinous crime by any means, at best a misdemeanor), this experience is going to leave a mark and as pointed out earlier it's going to have them as 18, 19, 20 somethings NOT trust the police when they need them. It's like that first-ever training with a bad sensei. Same concept. 
The officer, was doing his job. I support him all the way on that. He saw a violation of a city ordinance and it's his job to enforce that. It was the WAY he did it. He was aggressive from the word go. 
The kids... what I saw the kids' attitude (read their body languages) they were trying best to their _inexperienced ability to be assertive_. The Bush kid did try to explain that he didn't hear the officer the first time because he had his I-pod earbud on. After that the kids were submissive. Maybe they couldn't hold their tongues but when they did speak it wasn't yelling back at the officer and it wasn't threatening.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 14, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Yes, but how is it disrespectful to call a cop Dude? When it's commonly known that a lot of kids don't know better or don't THINK far enough ahead that they should be using more polite terms? If they were older kids yeah, chew 'em out for not knowing better, but at 14 ... they know but it's not yet moved to the front of the brain so it's the first thing on their minds to use "sir" or "officer". Takes time.


 
My inference was that* in general* "kids" can let their emotions run them not that these kid's let their emtions run them.  As a matter of fact they were pretty much cooperative and respecting authority while the officer went about his yelling.

I would hope that kid's in general would call an authority figure sir or ma'am.  However, I am a realist and from first hand experience know that this is not always the case.  

My point is that the officer in question was unprofessional in his approach and could have handled it much better rather than letting his emotions run him.


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## LuzRD (Feb 14, 2008)

IMO whatever preceeded the start of the video is irrelevant in regards to this dudes ego inflation. 
everyone starts off calm until the dude doesnt like the way the kid says "yeah". (dude actually expects the entire group of teenage skaters to be respectfull?!?!?!)
the kid in question does seem to be the punk of the group, but that doesnt give dude ANY authority or reason to mistreat someones kid like that.
you dont agree with this kids outlook on life dude? well tough, your oppinion doesnt matter! 

dude then flies off the handle, assaults the kid, berates him, and insults the kids family.

if the punk was MY kid i would be raising hell at the local PD (for the battery, not the hissy fit)!! after i raised hell for the boy (for not having the sense to smarten up when dude started flipping out).

"whats your name, where ya from, whats your address" i wouldnt want to give my information to an apparent psychopath either.

i did enjoy his last words "you got that camera on? if i find myself onl..." i think thats the point where he realized that he could get screwed for his overreacting but yet wasnt smart enough to investigate the camera. lol

pr***s like this make me sick, and are one of the reasons alot of people just wont trust the police.
my appologies to the good ones if this seemed like i was bashing more than the one dude, that was not my intent


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## KempoGuy06 (Feb 14, 2008)

i think the officer was both right and wrong. I cant make a judgement about the physical part because I cant see enough of it. I can however agree with the cop for yelling at the kid. 

Im 23 and at 14 I was taught to show respect to everyone older than me. My parents would have busted my *** if I had talked to a cop like that. One of my best friends dad is a cop and everytime i see him in uniform its always 'sir' this and that. Thats how ingrained it is, whats funny is he gets mad at me. 

What I dont like is how he tells the kid he is going to get killed if he keeps acting like that.

B


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## MA-Caver (Feb 14, 2008)

KempoGuy06 said:


> What I don't like is how he tells the kid he is going to get killed if he keeps acting like that.
> 
> B


Yep, in some circumstances that could be considered a veiled threat.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 14, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Watching the video, got this tightening in my stomach. The officer IMO was way out of line. Yelling and screaming and humiliating the kid for one thing.
> Good Morning America (can't get the link) was talking about how they don't know how old is the video, and what were circumstances before and then after the video. Granted they're right.
> But it seems to me that the kids were enroute to someplace and just didn't want to walk past the building when they could've easily skated past it. Interview with the kid (Bush) indicated that was their intent.
> Officer Rivieri probably did see an ordinance violation and was putting the stop to the kids, most likely with the intent to warn them.
> ...


On the other hand the kid had no business calling that guy, "dude".
Sean


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 14, 2008)

KempoGuy06 said:


> What I dont like is how he tells the kid he is going to get killed if he keeps acting like that.
> 
> B


 
Frankly-I can think of another participant in the video of whom the SAME can be said. I shudder to think ( well ok maybe I don't) what would happen the first time he tried that Eric Cartman routine on a genuine hardcase or group of same.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 15, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Yep, in some circumstances that could be considered a veiled threat.




"I'll smack you upside the head"

"Your parents don't put a foot in your butt quite enough"

"I'm not man, I'm not dude, I am Officer Rivieri.  Now the sooner you learn that the longer you are gonna live in this world.  You go around doing this kind of stuff, someone's going to kill you."

Note he doesn't ask for the skateboard, until he's already manhandling the kid.  It's off camera, but pretty clear.

In any circumstances I'd call that a threat.  

Well, at least Officer Rivieri has been permanently immortalized as "Dude"

Dude knew damn well he was out of line, if he was acting professionally having a camera on him would be a good thing, saves him from false accusations.

The thing that bothers me most is this:
"Clifford said Rivieri's suspension entails a transfer to administrative duties with pay."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/bal-te.md.officer12feb12,0,2952754.story


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## That One Guy (Feb 15, 2008)

I will be very dissapointed if this jackass doesnt lose his job. If I lived in the same state I would be writing to the mayor, governer, and senators to demand this guys removal.


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## AndyM (Feb 15, 2008)

I know there is more by way of a screening process for personality disorders than there used to be for potential LEO's.
This guy obviously slipped through the net.
It reflects badly on police everywhere, but all it takes is one bad apple......
Would he talk to an adult like that?
Someone his own size?
Why should kids not be respected by HIM?
Coward and Bully, not fit for the job.


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## shesulsa (Feb 15, 2008)

The thing here is that respect is *so* grossly lacking in our world today and people undervalue that trait in themselves.  _This officer had the golden opportunity to show this young man the value of respect in a firm but good way - instead, he man-handled him, showing him to be afraid of LEOs rather than respect them.

_What a pity for both of them.


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## thardey (Feb 15, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> The thing here is that respect is *so* grossly lacking in our world today and people undervalue that trait in themselves.  _This officer had the golden opportunity to show this young man the value of respect in a firm but good way - instead, he man-handled him, showing him to be afraid of LEOs rather than respect them.
> 
> _What a pity for both of them.



I'm guessing "Dude" doesn't have a lot of self-respect, and has to demand it from others.

I'm he doesn't respect himself, he'll never really get it from others.


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## newGuy12 (Feb 15, 2008)

All I can say is this:  If this guy is such a tough guy, so "in charge", then why doesn't he take charge of his body, loose some of that baby fat?

What a loser, LOL!


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 15, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> All I can say is this: If this guy is such a tough guy, so "in charge", then why doesn't he take charge of his body, loose some of that baby fat?
> 
> What a loser, LOL!


 
First thing that made me laugh all day. I can't rep you so soon again but wanted to thank you for that.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 15, 2008)

BlackCatBonz said:


> I don't think the cop overstepped his bounds.....
> I want kids to be scared to break the law or disrespect police.....isn't that the idea?



HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAA!!!! That's classic, man. If they don't have fear, put it into 'em, huh?   :wink2:


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## thardey (Feb 15, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAA!!!! That's classic, man. If they don't have fear, put it into 'em, huh?   :wink2:




There are ways to put fear and respect of cops into kids -- that wasn't it. Now they respect him less.


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## MJS (Feb 15, 2008)

BlackCatBonz said:


> I don't think the cop overstepped his bounds.....
> I want kids to be scared to break the law or disrespect police.....isn't that the idea?


 
Is yelling at them like a madman the best way to enforce any respect though?  What this cop did is no different than some high rank martial artist saying, "You WILL respect me because I'm a 6th degree black belt!"  Sorry, but respect is a 2 way street.  You need to give it to get it.

I worked in Corrections for a while.  These guys could give a rats behind about me, and likewise, I wasn't there to make friends with them.  However, I still needed to treat them with a certain amount of respect if I was to ever get them to do anything I directed them to do.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 15, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> All I can say is this:  If this guy is such a tough guy, so "in charge", then why doesn't he take charge of his body, loose some of that baby fat?
> 
> What a loser, LOL!


 That's good... made me recall some of my initial thoughts watching the video for the second time... hard to respect somebody who looks like they shouldn't be wearing shorts and high top black socks. Also had a good giggle at Shesulsa's observation that he was a Meter-Maid after all. Even if he's still a full fledged police officer, it's hard to take a guy seriously who's main job of the day is driving around in that little buggy, checking parking meters, wearing those shorts.


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## jks9199 (Feb 16, 2008)

I just finally got a chance to watch the video.  There are several issues.

First -- regarding the use of force.  I don't have a problem with it.  The officer tells the kid to give him the skateboard; I don't blame him.  The kid's already showing an attitude; a skateboard can be a great weapon (would you want to take a skateboard to the face?) or provide a means of immediate escape.  The officer had every right to control that skateboard during the encounter.  When the kid refused to surrender it, he used pretty reasonable force to control the kid, and to keep him seated.  A simple takedown, and a push.  And, if you can't tell, I feel he had justification.

As to his rant... That could have been handled better.  But I don't blame him; I've dealt with that same sort of almost passive aggressive crap from kids.  It can be pretty infuriating.  And, sometimes, you speak in a language your target is going to understand.   I've used language and said things in ways that would very possibly shock many of you used to how I write here -- because the people I'm dealing with aren't going to listen to anything else.


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## newGuy12 (Feb 16, 2008)

Well, at the end of the day, anyone knows that IF you go into some kind of law enforcement or security work, this is what you will be doing, more than most people have to.  Fuss, fuss, fuss, always trying to tell people what to do, what not to do.  That is part of the nature of that business.  

And about that car, here they give him that silly looking car.  That is a stupid thing to do.  There will always be children wanting to ride those skateboards everywhere, no matter what the laws or rules are.  That is not going to change.

No, this would not be an easy way to make money.  And once you start arguing with people, every day, then that can turn the personality sour.  That guy should get another job, one that is easier.  For example, technical support, you are only helping people to address problems and overcome them, you do not have to fuss and argue.  What a mess.  And you know good and well that even now, as this guy is messing with these kids, there are another bunch of people close enough by doing other things that he will have to go and take care of.  It just can't be worth the money.  He should at least try to get some duty where he can show off, and be a big shot with a fancy police car and so forth.  This job here is a mess. 

That car is the silliest thing.  Some suit wearing moron in the local government came up with that idea.  Some idiot.


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## Tez3 (Feb 16, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I just finally got a chance to watch the video. There are several issues.
> 
> First -- regarding the use of force. I don't have a problem with it. The officer tells the kid to give him the skateboard; I don't blame him. The kid's already showing an attitude; a skateboard can be a great weapon (would you want to take a skateboard to the face?) or provide a means of immediate escape. The officer had every right to control that skateboard during the encounter. When the kid refused to surrender it, he used pretty reasonable force to control the kid, and to keep him seated. A simple takedown, and a push. And, if you can't tell, I feel he had justification.
> 
> As to his rant... That could have been handled better. But I don't blame him; I've dealt with that same sort of almost passive aggressive crap from kids. It can be pretty infuriating. And, sometimes, you speak in a language your target is going to understand. I've used language and said things in ways that would very possibly shock many of you used to how I write here -- because the people I'm dealing with aren't going to listen to anything else.


 
I think we need a new thread for policing styles as this is way different from how it would be treated over here. For a start people we speak to aren't 'targets' and while I wouldn't want to be complacent the likeihood of been hit by a kid with a skateboard is low here. Kids like this if talked to properely are rarely a problem. One of the things that is taught to us is the "my attitude- your attitude" lesson. How your attitude will affect how someone is going to respond to you. I think British coppers have always been more for chatting to people than from what I've seen of American police, there may be many factors for this, probably worth exploring somewhere else but I have to say I'm a bit shocked by JKS' post! 
It should be said though that people shouldn't mistake the British police's more laid back attitude for weakness though.


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## morph4me (Feb 16, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> I imagine those kids called everyone "dude", friends more then anyone else. All I saw was a real life version of Eric Cartman demanding they "Resepect my Authorita!"
> 
> They where kids, and in his eyes had no rights and deserved no respect. Just that they obey his every word as if it was the word of God.


 
I saw the same thing, the officer demanded respect, but didn't give it and did nothing to earn it.



shesulsa said:


> I would want to see the whole thing before I judged too much ... but here are some things that bother me:
> 
> 1. Fourteen. Male. 'Nuff said. When I was 14, my English teacher took me and a few others to her classroom at lunch for a few days to get us to stop saying "like" every other word, and ya know what? It was hard!
> 
> ...


 
While I agree with the whole post, not understanding the bolded paragraph really seems to be officers biggest issue.. He seems to think that bullying will make the kid respect him, makes me wonder if he treats adults the same way.


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## jks9199 (Feb 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I think we need a new thread for policing styles as this is way different from how it would be treated over here. For a start people we speak to aren't 'targets' and while I wouldn't want to be complacent the likeihood of been hit by a kid with a skateboard is low here. Kids like this if talked to properely are rarely a problem. One of the things that is taught to us is the "my attitude- your attitude" lesson. How your attitude will affect how someone is going to respond to you. I think British coppers have always been more for chatting to people than from what I've seen of American police, there may be many factors for this, probably worth exploring somewhere else but I have to say I'm a bit shocked by JKS' post!
> It should be said though that people shouldn't mistake the British police's more laid back attitude for weakness though.


A large chunk of the difference is the clientele I've been dealing with for the last few years...  

I have to be able to fluidly shift from dealing with gang banging punks who will mistake a "please, you can't skateboard in the park" for weakness to the young parents I interviewed about an offense where their car was described (they were clearly uninvolved) last night.

It's about how you talk to people... but most of the effective cops here have a pretty simple approach.  One part can be stolen from the line in *Road House*; "you be nice until it's time to not be nice."  Running in tandem with that is a simple way of handling things:  I ask someone one time to do something, then I tell them to do it, and then I make them do it.  You have to know when you're making progress with requests and when it's time to stop asking and make them; to distinguish the gripers who'll do it complaining the whole time from the real "no" people, who aren't going to comply until they're forced to.  

Like I said -- I'm not giving this officer a blanket pass.  His rant was unprofessional, at best.  But his use of force, in the situation from what was presented... Not unreasonable.  Not great, not particularly wise perhaps, but not unreasonable.  That's a separate issue from the rant.  The article posted with the video is not a particularly balanced description; it's clear from the video that the officer's actions didn't begin with knocking the kid down.  He starts talking to them from a distance; the kid's attitude was not compliant.  Even the kid's buddies were telling him to shut up.  The officer asks for the skateboard; the kid doesn't give it up.  And the officer escalates in response. 

He's been suspended during the investigation.  He'll probably be reassigned, and likely lose a couple of days (or more) pay.  And... he's been publicly humiliated.  That's going to affect his job in many ways.

A side comment:  Yes, he could stand to lose a few pounds.  So could I.  (In fact, I could stand to lose more than a few.)  But he's also wearing body armor.  Kind of says something about your job when "going to the office" involves putting on body armor and carrying multiple weapons.  Even in what seems to be a tourist area.


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## Archangel M (Feb 16, 2008)

I agree. Like i said upthread, unless this officer has a history of "problem behavior", I dont think the avalanche of "fire him" responses that always come with these types of things is fair. Does anybody really know how good of an officer this guy is? Id bet that many great officers have memories of situations where they could have handled things better.


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## newGuy12 (Feb 16, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Id bet that many great officers have memories of situations where they could have handled things better.


Ha, not only police officers, but every human being.  That's what sucks about being human, we make mistakes, or if not that, act in ways that might in hindsight not be the best ways.  I know for sure that I have, oh, boy have I.

It will all blow over, you'll see.  In the end of the film there, you can tell that this guy was trying to talk some sense into these skateboarders (not that it would have done any good -- kids that age do not understand things well enough).

Just another curious thing to talk about on the intertubes.  Next week will be something else.  That is the world that we live in, the world of viral videos.


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## LuzRD (Feb 16, 2008)

ok i had a somewhat lengthy reply going here before i deleted it. i went out to have a cigarette and thought about this. 

people somtimes forget that police are people to. they can be helpful when your in need, they also commit the very same crimes everyone else does. i challenge anyone to find a police officer that you could call infallibe OR a real scumbag. now find a person thats not a police officer with those "qualities"
ill bet you cant find ANYBODY thats infallibe, but youll get a few scumbags from both sides.

however due to their position and the support they get from their peers police can overlook their own faults and magnify everyone elses (a broad generalization). 
which can lead to misconduct (as in this case) or gross abuse of power. power does in fact corrupt.
my advice for everybody that reads this is to try and see this situation from the other perspective.


police, look for the cop that loses control, has no respect, and attacks a 14 year old that wasnt hurting anybody. if you can justify his actions, keep looking.

non police, while watching the video consider being given an attitude by several people every day because your doing your job and they are either doing somthing wrong or potentially doing somthing wrong. if you arent sympathetic (yet still want him reprimanded) watch it again.

noone is born good, noone is born bad. yet everyone is born on this rock and we have to deal with each other.


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## Archangel M (Feb 17, 2008)

http://www.nbc4.com/news/15299099/detail.html 



> Tony Santo, 15, taped the incident last summer.
> Bush said he and his friends often have run-ins with police for skateboarding. Santo said he sometimes uses a camcorder to tape the interactions with police *because they find humor in getting yelled at by officers.*



Im starting to think the officers rant had some truth in it.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> http://www.nbc4.com/news/15299099/detail.html
> 
> 
> 
> Im starting to think the officers rant had some truth in it.


 
All the more reason then to deal with it without ranting and raving.


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## Archangel M (Feb 17, 2008)

Theyre like these little ***** that sneak cell phones into classrooms so they can irritate their teachers into yelling. Then they go post it up on youtube to amuse their friends.

Perhaps their parents havent put the boot up their behinds often enough.


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## arnisador (Feb 17, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Theyre like these little ***** that sneak cell phones into classrooms so they can irritate their teachers into yelling. Then they go post it up on youtube to amuse their friends.



Same as paparazzi and celebrities, but there the motivation is money.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2008)

Well it's not as though any of us have ever done anything to wind a teacher up when we were at school is it?


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## hongkongfooey (Feb 17, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> http://www.nbc4.com/news/15299099/detail.html
> 
> 
> 
> Im starting to think the officers rant had some truth in it.


 

Sounds to me like the little turd buckets were trying to set Sal up. I know the officer in question. He is and has always been a cool guy. But, he is no nonsense, and won't take crap off of people. To the people calling him a meter maid, you have no clue. He's worked for the BPD for 17 years. You don't know the areas of Baltimore he has worked, you don't know the city or the people. You have no idea of the crime that happens in Baltimore, even in the "tourist" areas. The kids were looking to provoke from the start. This time they found the wrong cop. He could have found himself in baby booking.


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 17, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAA!!!! That's classic, man. If they don't have fear, put it into 'em, huh? :wink2:


 
yes


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 17, 2008)

On another note, I find it funny the lack of respect people in this thread have for the officer in question.........all the while trying to minimize the fact that the kid showed no respect for the guy that puts his *** on the line daily to protect the citizens in that city, it shouldn't matter what kind of car the guy is driving......
You don't have to respect the guy wearing the badge.....but have a little respect for the institution that he is a member of.

really sad.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 17, 2008)

I've not commented here yet because I am heartily sick of the 'Trial by YouTube' nonsense that has sprung up in recent years.

The bare bones of this incident is that a minor was caught by a police officer doing what he shouldn't.  Rather than be senible and "Yes sir" at appropriate times and go on his way with a warning, he chose to what we in England would call 'use his cheek'.  The officer gave him what-for and quite rightly so.

Law enforcement is not an option and respect (aka appropriate level of fear) of those in uniform is likewise not optional.  We've let that go lately and it's a part of the price we're paying in social misbehaviour.

Without being too dramatic, the social structure is cracking under our feet even over here in civilised ole England, with 'teens (the bad ones) running amok with no respect for authority or fear of reprisals.

To give an example from my life, my father, who is in his seventies, has only one leg and walks with crutches these days, had trouble with a gang of 'teens pelting our house with eggs and other sundry garbage after he told them to stop sitting on our lawn.  He goes out to talk to them, receives a verbal threat accompanied by physical encroachment to which he responds with a commendable lack of fear and derision to the courage of a bunch of youths threatening an old man.

Guess who got a visit from the cops?  This sort of madness, wherein the young are not shown that to step out of line has costs, has to stop or when we grow old, if we get the chance, we shall be cowering prisioners in our own homes.


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## newGuy12 (Feb 17, 2008)

He catches some kids skateboarding and tells them to stop.  The rest is all ego driven.  If he wishes to live his life being ruled by his ego, that is his choice.  If people wish to poke fun at him when its his time in the barrel, because he is on tape, that's the world we live in.

But no profession is above ridicule, none.  If we can poke fun at the President of the United States (we do here), then anyone can get made fun of, no matter what they do for a living.  That's the internet.  Its just pixels, that's all. 

In one week's worth of time, we will all have other things to amuse ourselves with.  Its really not a big deal in any way at all, to me, though I'm glad that I haven't yet been caught on tape doing some funny thing.  It could happen to anyone, though!


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## Drac (Feb 17, 2008)

hongkongfooey said:


> Sounds to me like the little turd buckets were trying to set Sal up. I know the officer in question. He is and has always been a cool guy. But, he is no nonsense, and won't take crap off of people. To the people calling him a meter maid, you have no clue. He's worked for the BPD for 17 years. You don't know the areas of Baltimore he has worked, you don't know the city or the people. You have no idea of the crime that happens in Baltimore, even in the "tourist" areas. The kids were looking to provoke from the start. This time they found the wrong cop. He could have found himself in baby booking.


 
Well said..Great Post...Should I even bother to tell about the officer up here that had a similar run in with a bunch of punks..They found a Colt Desert Eagle in the kids waistband...Harmless skateboarders my butt..


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> He catches some kids skateboarding and tells them to stop. The rest is all ego driven. If he wishes to live his life being ruled by his ego, that is his choice. If people wish to poke fun at him when its his time in the barrel, because he is on tape, that's the world we live in.
> 
> But no profession is above ridicule, none. If we can poke fun at the President of the United States (we do here), then anyone can get made fun of, no matter what they do for a living. That's the internet. Its just pixels, that's all.
> 
> In one week's worth of time, we will all have other things to amuse ourselves with. Its really not a big deal in any way at all, to me, though I'm glad that I haven't yet been caught on tape doing some funny thing. It could happen to anyone, though!


 

Well said!


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 18, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I've not commented here yet because I am heartily sick of the 'Trial by YouTube' nonsense that has sprung up in recent years.
> 
> The bare bones of this incident is that a minor was caught by a police officer doing what he shouldn't. Rather than be senible and "Yes sir" at appropriate times and go on his way with a warning, he chose to what we in England would call 'use his cheek'. The officer gave him what-for and quite rightly so.
> 
> ...


 
This is a pretty sad state of affairs.

We are letting kids get away with murder these days.


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## MJS (Feb 18, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I just finally got a chance to watch the video. There are several issues.
> 
> First -- regarding the use of force. I don't have a problem with it. The officer tells the kid to give him the skateboard; I don't blame him. The kid's already showing an attitude; a skateboard can be a great weapon (would you want to take a skateboard to the face?) or provide a means of immediate escape. The officer had every right to control that skateboard during the encounter. When the kid refused to surrender it, he used pretty reasonable force to control the kid, and to keep him seated. A simple takedown, and a push. And, if you can't tell, I feel he had justification.


 
With all due respect, I disagree.  Was the kid that much of a threat that he had to manhandle him like that?  Did he take the boards of the others?  If not why?  That kid IMO, seemed to be scared and nervous.  IMO, didn't look like much of a threat to me.  I'm not saying be so relaxed you drop your guard, but I think the cop went a little overboard.



> As to his rant... That could have been handled better. But I don't blame him; I've dealt with that same sort of almost passive aggressive crap from kids. It can be pretty infuriating. And, sometimes, you speak in a language your target is going to understand. I've used language and said things in ways that would very possibly shock many of you used to how I write here -- because the people I'm dealing with aren't going to listen to anything else.


 
Sometimes you'll get further by being nice, instead of being an ***, like this guy was.  If you treat someone with a bit of respect, the odds of cooperation on their part just went up a bit.  If I spoke to the inmates the way this cop spoke, I'd probably get my *** kicked, and a shank stuck in me.  Yet, while we all know that many inmates are total dirtbags, you still need to show some respect if you ever expect to survive in a place like that.


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## MJS (Feb 18, 2008)

BlackCatBonz said:


> On another note, I find it funny the lack of respect people in this thread have for the officer in question.........all the while trying to minimize the fact that the kid showed no respect for the guy that puts his *** on the line daily to protect the citizens in that city, it shouldn't matter what kind of car the guy is driving......
> You don't have to respect the guy wearing the badge.....but have a little respect for the institution that he is a member of.
> 
> really sad.


 
I'm sorry, but respect IMHO, goes both ways.  This cop wants people to fear him plain and simple.  He let the badge go to his head IMO.  I mean, you've been a member on this forum for a while right?  Look at some threads here.  You have people demanding that you respect their high rank, their title, demanding that you call them by Doctor, Mr, or whatever else.  Are there people who I've dealt with in RL that had no respect for me?  Absolutely!  I'm still social, yet I don't go out of my way to be extra nice or mean for that matter, to them.  

This cop is a reflection of the dept he works for.  Is one bad apple going to ruin the bunch?  Possibly.  Perhaps, in his quest for respect, he should dish a little out himself, both to the public and to his dept.

Mike


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## newGuy12 (Feb 18, 2008)

Well, this kind of thing is going to happen.  Now, no one got hurt, no one was hospitalized, the policeman did not start squeezing off rounds or anything.  There was no real harm done, you see.  If there is no harm, then the rest is just some topic for discussion.

Now, there is a VERY BAD video going on now having to do with how animals are slaughtered -- I don't CHOOSE to eat meat, you see, I will if it is offered to me, but if I go to a restaurant, I choose to eat some salad or such.  I say that to say this:  There are VERY BAD things going on RIGHT NOW!  This we see here on this video is very trivial, since no one was hurt, not hospitalized, not a big deal. 

I will not post this other video about the slaughter house.  It is too hard to watch!  

See, in the LARGER scheme of things, this video here with the policeman and the skateboard kids is not worthy of all of this fuss, but I engage in this, I waste my time this way just because we all enjoy talking back and forth.  Soon we will have some other topic. 

I need to do more constructive things with my time, especially since I am at work now!!!


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## shesulsa (Feb 19, 2008)

Same guy, another civilian.


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 19, 2008)

Busted down to picking up empty shell casings on the firing range it is, then. (or ought to be).


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## Guardian (Feb 19, 2008)

*After being in Law Enforcement and trying to go back to it civilian life now.  I can't believe this officer had nothing better to do with his time then get on some kids for skateboarding (were their signs, I doubt it), I have yet to see a sign anywhere that says no skateboarding especially in a wide open area like that, maybe they are, but the chances of these kids knowing that or seeing a sign in that open of space is zilch.  Hell the cops probably doesn't know every ordinance in the city much less expect kids to.*

*Now on to his actions, no matter what was said, he assaulted the kid to take the skateboard, there was no words on that video of give me the skateboard prior to him coming up grabbing the kid and taking it.  Doesn't matter either way, if he touched the kids like that, dead wrong all the way around.  If it was such a deal, slap the cuffs on him and take him to Juvy pure and simple.*

*His actions were wrong and anyone advocating fear as being the best deterent could have a point to an extent, but fear will only go so far in this world before fear is replaced by loathing and resentment and then it continues on to more destructive things.*

*He might have had a bad day, family problems, who the heck knows, and maybe he should have tried talking to them, he started yelling almost immediately and though Dude would not be a term that I would be liking to, it's not the end of the world, but this cop took it that way and went to far.*

*Should he lose his job, no, should he think about things like this in the future, most definately.*

*IMHO*


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## Sukerkin (Feb 19, 2008)

That's a balanced and well throught through post, *Guardian*.


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## Guardian (Feb 19, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> That's a balanced and well throught through post, *Guardian*.


 
*Thank you, I always try and look at it both sides before commenting.*


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## Andrew Green (Feb 19, 2008)

hongkongfooey said:


> Sounds to me like the little turd buckets were trying to set Sal up.



I don't think so.  They have a history of filming officers when they get yelled at by them, and admitted they where in the wrong.  

How is that different then someone admitting they where in the wrong when caught speeding or running a stop sign?  If my history with the cops was full of instances like that, I'd probably be tempted to flip a camera on when one approached me too.

But regardless, watching the video they really did nothing wrong after they where told to stop skateboarding.  Certainly nothing to warrant that.  I would however expect a officer to be able to remain calm and professional under far worse situations.



jks9199 said:


> _First -- regarding the use of force. I don't have a problem with it. The officer tells the kid to give him the skateboard; I don't blame him. The kid's already showing an attitude; a skateboard can be a great weapon (would you want to take a skateboard to the face?) or provide a means of immediate escape. The officer had every right to control that skateboard during the encounter. When the kid refused to surrender it, he used pretty reasonable force to control the kid, and to keep him seated. A simple takedown, and a push. And, if you can't tell, I feel he had justification._



Had he asked or given any hint that he was going to use it as a weapon I might agree.  However the kid did not refuse his request to take the skateboard, he didn't ask until he had the kid in a headlock.



The kid was disrespectful, no question there.  However, I expect better, not worse, from Police Officers.  But at it really only comes down to one thing, after such an encounter with a police officer, would you have more, or less respect for their authority?  

Anyone that gets treated like that by police is not going to come out with respect for their authority, and by association the laws which they enforce.  Especially kids with skateboards who probably have had a few such encounters.

Laws need to do two things, they need to protect your rights and safety, and they need to prevent you from taking away other peoples rights and safety.  From the point of view of teenagers it may very well seem they only get the one side of it, legally they seem to have more things taken away to protect others, yet they have less rights as far as recourse goes or prevention of discrimination against them.  It's really not that surprising that many fight back against this.  Which of course leads to more discrimination, which means more of them rebel against "The Man"

There does need to be a balance, otherwise things keep spiraling down.  Officers going off on kids like this for a simple thing like skateboarding as a method of transportation (doesn't sound like they where even hanging out on ramps or rails doing tricks, just going from one place to another) is failing to keep that level of professionalism that is necessary to balance the kids need to rebel against authority, with their respect for the societal rules that the authority figure stands for.  He did not "teach them a lesson" in any good way,  the only lesson they walked away with is that Cops are just bullies with badges that treat them like garbage because of who they are.


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## shesulsa (Feb 19, 2008)

Well put, Andrew, and I concur.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 19, 2008)

OT-ish

I just wanted to say that yet again MT has proven to me why I like to come here every day and listen/chat.

Not many martial arts sites would have a thread such as this one where an emotive and potentially explosive issue is discussed so eloquently.

Well done all.

Back to your regular programming .


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## Archangel M (Feb 19, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> I don't think so. They have a history of filming officers when they get yelled at by them, and admitted they where in the wrong.
> 
> How is that different then someone admitting they where in the wrong when caught speeding or running a stop sign? If my history with the cops was full of instances like that, I'd probably be tempted to flip a camera on when one approached me too.


 
Thats only a good analogy if you intentionally  run stop signs so you can film the cops. The kids said they film the police because they enjoy laughing at them yelling at them latter.



> Tony Santo, 15, taped the incident last summer.
> Bush said he and his friends often have run-ins with police for skateboarding. Santo said he sometimes uses a camcorder to tape the interactions with police *because they find humor in getting yelled at by officers*.



Where is that an admirable trait for kids to have? I think it goes hand in hand with the ["dude"] lack of respect issue.

But thats a separate issue from if this officer is in the right. After looking at that last video of him, Im beginning to think he lacks the interpersonal skills to be working these high visibility posts with the "normal public". But none of us are privy to this officers worthiness based on 2 internet videos.


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## shesulsa (Feb 19, 2008)

I really want to be clear here - I have MUCH respect for the law and for good LEOs. I would not want to be out there every day with the amount of training you get without supplementation charged with the duties that you guys are.  

And you gotta take it in the jaw a lot whenever someone with a camcorder picks up part of an incident on film.  I think it takes real professionals to be able to look at these cilps, read these comments and keep their heads. Kudos to you guys who can handle these comments.

For the person who posted that they know Officer Rivieri: please know that some people feel it is imperative to monitor one's interaction like this when you are a public servant.  I feel for the officer - he's had two of his worst moments aired across the nation ... only two moments in a long career.   I feel a little bit bad saying that he was a "meter maid" - I honestly thought he was - he's driving a minicar in *very* casual attire (I think even the bicycle officers in Portland appear a little dressier, though honestly not much).  I'm not used to seeing an officer who is not on light patrol attired thusly.

IMHO, the very best thing that can come from threads like this is honest examination and open, respectful discussion leading to the outcome of every good officer's self-examination. "Do I ever look/sound like that?" "Am I accomplishing what I want to accomplish?" "Is there a better way?"

I'm confident there are many posters here who realize there are indeed situations wherein one must be firm, even violent, and make moment-to-moment decisions in very charged situations and it takes a unique head to manage this day in and day out.

Thanks.


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## MJS (Feb 19, 2008)

Well, that was a great post Shesulsa!   As I said in another post, I too, have alot of respect for LEOs, not only because I was brought up in a family with one, but because I work with them in a sense and the job is not easy.  Everyday you put that uniform on, you have a target on.  

In todays world, camcorders, cell phone cameras, and the like and everywhere.  While I wouldn't always want to rely on a cell phone cameras video as full evidence, nonetheless, people need to realise that they're out there.  Many patrol cars have dash-cams, so your actions will always be under the microscope.

IMO, if you have a job in which you deal with the public, you need to be respectful.  If you can't live up to that, then you need to find another job.  I deal with the public everyday.  Granted its not face to face, but still, if I spoke to someone in the fashion this officer did, at the least, I'd probably be looking at a few days off.

I don't know...maybe we shouldn't judge the situation until we've 'walked in the other persons shoes' but still, it doesn't take alot of common sense to see that what took place in this video was out of hand.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 19, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Thats only a good analogy if you intentionally  run stop signs so you can film the cops. The kids said they film the police because they enjoy laughing at them yelling at them latter.



I never said the kids where in the right, but the question becomes "Why do they enjoy laughing at these cops?"  I don't think it's because past interactions have led them to respect them.  Which was kind of my point 



> But none of us are privy to this officers worthiness based on 2 internet videos.



No, of course not.  But I think it's pretty clear that in this particular instance this officer behaved in a very unprofessional manner.  Nowadays in the age of the internet and viral videos officers have to be even more careful then in the past in order to retain their image of "protect and serve."

Think about how many officer to citizens interactions occur in a day, millions if not billions.  Now imagine only a tenth of a percent are handled extremely poorly, we're still looking at probably thousands of poorly handled interactions.  Now what if only 1 % of those are filmed, even less.  That still leaves negative interactions on tape, every single day.  

Now how many days in a row do you think most people would go, seeing only a couple of those interactions surface on youtube or other sites before their opinion of the Police force takes a nose dive?

A large part of the Police Forces ability to do its job is based on the public perception of the force.  If that perception is poor, then they will have a very hard time dealing with the public.  Officers that do things like this give  a very negative image to the force, and if they do it enough, eventually someone will film them.  Everyone has cellphones with camcorders built in now, it's not obvious when someone is filming you, so it's only a matter of time.

We don't know whether this was  a one time snap, or whether he deals with teenagers like this on a regular basis, but what matters from a public perception POV is that this time, someone had a camera one him, and this time he screwed up and got famous for it.

It doesn't take many screw-ups caught on tape to damage reputation, but it does take a very large number of good reports to undo that damage.  It's also not just this one event, punch "Skateboard cop" into youtube and you will find quite a few videos of cops & security cards abusing teenagers.  Look at the cops from the teenagers point of view, not hard to understand where the lack of respect might come from when that is what they see of cops interacting with people like them.

cellphone camcorders and youtube have given kids a powerful tool, the power to fight back against discrimination and oppression that would otherwise go by ignored.  Whether it is a cop abusing them verbally, and even physically, or a teacher telling them non-Christians are going to hell and deserve it.  The price is that a very small number of bad instances thrown into public view make the entire institution look bad.  Human brains are really not very good at putting bad news into perspective when all we see is the worst news in a "community of 300,000,000.  Evolution hasn't quite caught up to that, for millions of years we lived in communities of hundreds, maybe thousands.  Seeing as much "bad" as we do thanks to national and international media can throw perspective out of whack.


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## Archangel M (Feb 19, 2008)

I agree, but there will always be situations like this. If out of thousands of taped police encounters there is only a few "bad ones" that should be a good thing. However those few always get publicized and the rest are ignored. Unless we expect to entirely eliminate all bad encounters [which is impossible] what are we to expect?

Im not saying that we should ignore these types of stories but the impression of law enforcement the media creates out of these situations is out of whack with reality IMO.

And I dont believe for a minute that those kids issues with respect are the fault of the police.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 19, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> I agree, but there will always be situations like this. If out of thousands of taped police encounters there is only a few "bad ones" that should be a good thing. However those few always get publicized and the rest are ignored. Unless we expect to entirely eliminate all bad encounters [which is impossible] what are we to expect?
> 
> Im not saying that we should ignore these types of stories but the impression of law enforcement the media creates out of these situations is out of whack with reality IMO.




No, we certainly can't expect to eliminate them, however officers do need to always keep in mind that in any situation they may be on camera.  Departments need to treat these situations seriously, even when they are not publicized.  Police officer should, IMO, be held to a higher standard.

For example, this unrelated incident shows a similar problem:

[yt]hnZb5wi_jsU[/yt]

Chances are, someone got charged with having that Pot, officer swiped it, makes a *** of himself, and is not charged. He should have been punished more severely then anyone else would have,  because of his position, and because he stole evidence and abused the power given to him.

The skateboard video brings a similar issue up, he was put on paid suspension.  Now this is perhaps the right thing to do, until a investigation is conducted people are presumed innocent until proved otherwise.  But the public perception is that he is getting paid to stay home because he abused his power.  A few weeks from now the investigation might be over, he may very well be fired, but by then the story will have been forgotten, just the memory of him abusing his position and getting paid vacation for it will remain.

I don't see a easy solution, but public perception is a important factor to having a effective and respected police force, this officer seriously damaged that perception, even if he is not actually guilty of any "crime" and should be accountable for that.

I mean if I were to do something that got national attention and made my employer look bad, I would expect that most likely I would be fired.  Same for most people, if you do something that hurts your companies reputation there will be severe consequences.  

For example, suppose these kids had fast food jobs, and videos of them, in uniform, spitting in burgers, yelling at customers, or something else that hurt the reputation of the business surfaced, they'd be fired without hesitation. Yet someone treats them like that and they see this person get paid holidays.  Perception is everything, and this harms the public perception of the Police, especially from teenagers who see themselves as being in the same group as the kids in the video.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 19, 2008)

You know when I worked in the field quite a while ago.  I tried very, very hard to never let my emotions run me.  LEO's in general have a brutal thankless job.  Anyone who has never dealt with the worst of our population will have a hard time comprehending it to the fullest extent of how difficult it can be.

Having said that what this officer did was let his emotions run him for just a small amount of time.  Probably he is a good police officer with overall a very good record. (this I do not know but imagine it to be the case)  However in this instance he just let his emotions go a bit and ranted and it was unprofessional.  Maybe in this area this approach is successful. (though I do not think so) Several LEO's are on here telling you that they have to talk in the most effective manner to the population they are dealing with.  Sometimes this type of talk can be well rough!

There is a bit of gray and white here.  So I for one, even though I believe the officer was unprofessional and ineffective in this instance feel for him. 

For the rest of us just understand that you could at any moment be in a situation where you need to act whether verbally or physically and in that moment try not to let your emotions run you.  That way if you are on camera you will not be disapointed in yourself!


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## Archangel M (Feb 19, 2008)

The public is also unaware of just how many cops ARE fired every year. Most PD's are not going to go to the press and publicize how many cops they discharge [why would they?]. But they get the "blue wall of silence" crap tossed at them nonetheless.

Officers are typically suspended with pay pending an investigation [innocent until proven guilty] because due to the nature of the job, what appears as an ugly use of force could very well have been justified. If the charges have some merit many are then suspended without pay as a punishment or as a step toward termination.


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## newGuy12 (Feb 19, 2008)

Oh no!  There is another video of this guy!  You must all watch this because in it you get to see a very good view of that car!






Oh -- sorry, I now see that user 'Sheulsa' previously posted it.  Haha -- he is now becoming a celebrity!  That is funny, but it is also NOT FUNNY!  You all MAY think that I'm joking, but you could generate revenue now!  He could go into some show on tv, where he has a bit part!  The script could from time to time have something like, "Don't make me call up Officer Riviera on you!"  That sort of thing.  Stranger things have happened in entertainment! 

I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but common people from time to time get celebrity and profit by it!


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 19, 2008)

You know how many kids I see crossing against the light and telling the drivers that slam on the breaks for them to go f themselves......too many in my eyes.

This is the same kid that slashed a cops throat in my little town a few years ago, these are the same kids that rob the local gas station at both knife and gunpoint while a husband and wife are trying to make a living running it.

Too many times we just pass it off as kids being kids.
I don't know about a lot of you guys.....but my parents would have made sure that I was fined, or punished to the full extent of the law if I chose to break it.
Tough bananas for these kids and kudos to the cops......
My Father-in-law was a prison guard and saw the result of a lack of discipline in a prison full of 18 year old gangstas.

Lord of the flies...........


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## LuzRD (Feb 19, 2008)

ok, after rereading the posts of those who are sticking up for officer Rivieri i change my mind. 
attacking that kid wasnt enough!!! i heard that these teenagers roughly fit the description of thousands and thousands of other kids their age, and some of them are criminals :xtrmshock: we should convict them now BEFORE they have a chance to prove they might be unlike us!

we should get the next MT meet and greet scheduled to be held in the same place that officer Rivieri likes mistreating people who are minding their own business *oops i mean enforcing his ego *OOPS!! i mean enforcing the law!!
this way we can let him make us just like him, bring some advil cuz i bet everyones ears will be hurting after not too long.

...wait a minute he might not be working there anymore because he was so far out of line he doesnt remember that there ever was a line. oh well, nevermind continue with M&G as scheduled i spose.  darn 

OR!!!! those who think that the government and its officials should be able to do what they want to whomever they want to, there happen to be places on this planet that currently will give you what you want. thats right!! you dont even need to finish that time machine youve been working on in the garage to go back 70 years and enjoy the previous Reich you can be oppressed and mistreated in a number of countries in the 21st century :highfive:!!! so if being surrounded by people that arent forced to be the same as you just doesnt cut it, MOVE!

but dont try and turn my America into the land of the helpless, and the home of the oppressed. 

:soapbox:


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## Tez3 (Feb 20, 2008)

One thing I'm curious about is the terminology used here. In my country and in Europe we have 'police officers' in the States you have 'law enforcement officers' and I'm curious to know what differences people see between them as I think it has bearing on this thread.
We've always held police officers to be 'servants of the people' not just there to uphold the law but to help people. it's for the protection of the weak as much as persecution of the criminals. It's only in recent times that the status of poilcie officers has fallen somewhat. They were and probably still are expected to set an example in behaviour not just for teens but for everyone. yes it's very hard when being abused to hold ones temper and reply politely but it's what you do because you have to be above the behaviour that you are trying to curtail.
A police officer should  behave respectfully towards everyone because he is the representative of the law, they have to be seen to impartial and just. It doesn't mean kowtowing to yobs or being weak. It means being strong, moral and not giving into having tantrums.
Why behave respectfully to career criminals, murderers, gobby teenagers etc? Because it makes you the bigger person, above their standards and it makes you right!


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## Drac (Feb 20, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> One thing I'm curious about is the terminology used here. In my country and in Europe we have 'police officers' in the States you have 'law enforcement officers' and I'm curious to know what differences people see between them as I think it has bearing on this thread.


 
It's kind of interchangeable..Police Officers are refered to as Law Enforcement Officers or LEO's..It can get real confusing especially when you throw the Deputy Sheriffs into the mix..I call my buddy that works for Cuyahoga County Sheriffs Department "A Dep"...The one that works for the Highway Patrol "A Statie"..If you work in the jail you're "a C.O."...Confusing ain't it????


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## newGuy12 (Feb 20, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> We've always held police officers to be 'servants of the people' not just there to uphold the law but to help people. it's for the protection of the weak as much as persecution of the criminals. It's only in recent times that the status of poilcie officers has fallen somewhat. They were and probably still are expected to set an example in behaviour not just for teens but for everyone. yes it's very hard when being abused to hold ones temper and reply politely but it's what you do because you have to be above the behaviour that you are trying to curtail.
> A police officer should  behave respectfully towards everyone because he is the representative of the law, they have to be seen to impartial and just. It doesn't mean kowtowing to yobs or being weak. It means being strong, moral and not giving into having tantrums.
> Why behave respectfully to career criminals, murderers, gobby teenagers etc? Because it makes you the bigger person, above their standards and it makes you right!



I have said this before, and I will say it again. The MAIN reason we have a police department is to keep normal people from being hurt by *BAD PEOPLE*.  Yes, there are some people who are just BAD.  They wish to do us harm!

Now, We have heard from one user of this board already who knows this man personally, and vouches that he has done good work in very rough areas.  That is the important part.  You see, if some guy has a bomb and is threatening people who do you call?  

THE POLICE 

Why?  Because they will break out the hardware and do what has to be done.  No more thinking, get in there and take that bad person down! No joking, this is serious.

Now, on the other hand, you have these kids skateboarding, maybe they chip off some concrete with their skateboards, they may run into someone and knock them down, they are a nuisance.  So, the police have to stop them. 

Now, _*IDEALLY*_, you would have some "tourist friendly" police officers handle this in a more gentile way.  Ideally.  But this is a messed up world, right?  You need tough, riot-ready, cock-strong people on the police force, no joke, for when the REAL BAD stuff goes down.  The guy we see here, he would be the kind of guy you wish to be on task when someone is held hostage or some such of thing, because he has the personality of aggression that would be useful here.

I personally think that its a lost cause to try to have police held to too high of a standard.  When things like this happen, as we see here, there is a public outcry and it will all work out, no problem.  But, it is too difficult to ask people to be all things to all people all of the time.  No one would then work in the field.  It would be too difficult. 

This kind of thing happens all of the time, it is the nature of trying to keep a police force.  This is not really news.  It has been brought to light, and will blow over (in due time).  

There are things going on in the world that are FAR WORSE than this guy getting too strong with these kids, that's all that I am saying.  It only surprises me that this kind of thing doesn't happen more often.  What kind of folks do you get to do this job?  Tough people, people who are not adverse to being in a freaking fire fight.  They may not be the most "nice" people.  That's okay, they have to be effective under very hazardous conditions sometimes, that is what is important.


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## Tez3 (Feb 20, 2008)

Yes you can have a force that is all things to all people. I'm off to work now to do just that so will have to post more when I get back after my shift. The main reason for a police force is not just to get the bad people,there's far more to it than that.


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## Tez3 (Feb 20, 2008)

Just a quick PS. Don't ever mistake treating people respectfully for being soft. You can reprimand people quite severely and still treat them respectfully. it's samantics perhaps but it's very important that the words we use accurately portray what we mean. I'm not advocating being soft on people who break the law but there are ways of behaving that are right and wrong.


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## arnisador (Feb 20, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> One thing I'm curious about is the terminology used here. In my country and in Europe we have 'police officers' in the States you have 'law enforcement officers' and I'm curious to know what differences people see between them as I think it has bearing on this thread.



A police officer usually means someone with local authority: A town or city police officer, and maybe county sheriffs and police/state troopers (though one might distinguish them from police officers). A LEO is a more general term that includes those cases as well as federal law enforcement officials with arrest powers such as FBI special agents, Border Patrol agents, etc.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 20, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> We've always held police officers to be 'servants of the people' not just there to uphold the law but to help people. it's for the protection of the weak as much as persecution of the criminals. It's only in recent times that the status of poilcie officers has fallen somewhat. They were and probably still are expected to set an example in behaviour not just for teens but for everyone. yes it's very hard when being abused to hold ones temper and reply politely but it's what you do because you have to be above the behaviour that you are trying to curtail.



"Protect and Serve" not "Intimidate and Punish" should definitely be the goal of the police department.  While Canadian Police are far from perfect, I also find looking at *some* of the US counterparts to be quite amazing.  Guys like Joe Arpaio, that gets elected over and over again, but I look at and think he should be in jail, kind of amaze me.

A lot of it probably is words, "Law Enforcement Officer" does carry a different message then "Police Officer", and a even bigger difference with "Public servant." "War on Drugs" certainly doesn't help the matter.  Wording does effect the perception of the persons function, and likely behaviour of those the description is used towards.


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 20, 2008)

LuzRD said:


> ok, after rereading the posts of those who are sticking up for officer Rivieri i change my mind.
> attacking that kid wasnt enough!!! i heard that these teenagers roughly fit the description of thousands and thousands of other kids their age, and some of them are criminals :xtrmshock: we should convict them now BEFORE they have a chance to prove they might be unlike us!
> 
> we should get the next MT meet and greet scheduled to be held in the same place that officer Rivieri likes mistreating people who are minding their own business *oops i mean enforcing his ego *OOPS!! i mean enforcing the law!!
> ...


 
he hardly mistreated that whiny kid....c'mon dude, gimme a break....get real.....

Maybe we should just let kids do whatever the hell they want......


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## Sukerkin (Feb 20, 2008)

"Maybe we should just let kids do whatever the hell they want......"

I take your point entirely.  Just look where doing that's gotten us ...


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## Fiendlover (Feb 20, 2008)

NO WAY!  im sorry but that kid didnt deserve that.  my forensic teacher is an ex cop and he talks about videos like these and situations were we wonder if the cop is over reacting so he tells us to put us in his shoes and i am doing the for "officer Riveri" and i disagree with what he did.  he completely overreacted.  the kid plainly said that he didnt hear him cuz of the ipod and whats with "if u show some respect you'll live longer"?  was that a threat?  that kid is 14 years old and dude was not meant to disrespect him in anyway and the officer shouldve understood that.  no i think that he had to right to even come close to going that far.  :rpo::ticked::321:


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## Sukerkin (Feb 20, 2008)

I think perhaps our disperate ages are colouring our perceptions of the same scene.

"Dude" is no way to address a policeman.  Over here (in England), when I was the age of the skater-boiz in the video, such behaviour in context would see you down the station, with a call to your parents to come for a 'chat'.  That call would see you in a much greater world of hurt than we've seen here.

Trust me, I speak from experience.


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## MJS (Feb 20, 2008)

BlackCatBonz said:


> Maybe we should just let kids do whatever the hell they want......


 
I don't think that kids should be allowed to do whatever they want, but there is a way to get your point across without having to act like the officer in the clip did.


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## arnisador (Feb 20, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> "Dude" is no way to address a policeman.  Over here (in England), when I was the age of the skater-boiz in the video, such behaviour in context would see you down the station, with a call to your parents to come for a 'chat'.



We see it as a Freedom of Speech issue over here, and as you know we have a more liberal interpretation of that. You may see it as politeness or social order at issue, but on this side of the pond he has the freedom to (unwisely) address a LEO as 'dude'.

If it was my kid, I'd want him hauled down to the station and would want them to call me. But as a rule, you can be disrespectful to authorities over here. After all, if we hadn't been disrespectful to authority, we'd still be speaking English! (Er, well, you know what I mean.)


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## LuzRD (Feb 20, 2008)

BlackCatBonz said:


> he hardly mistreated that whiny kid....c'mon dude, gimme a break....get real.....
> 
> Maybe we should just let kids do whatever the hell they want......



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mistreat
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/whine 

"c'mon dude" :jaw-dropping: really?

give yourself a break.

maybe we should let police do whatever the hell THEY want.......



BlackCatBonz said:


> You know how many kids I see crossing against the light and telling the drivers that slam on the breaks for them to go f themselves......too many in my eyes.
> 
> This is the same kid that slashed a cops throat in my little town a few years ago, these are the same kids that rob the local gas station at both knife and gunpoint while a husband and wife are trying to make a living running it.
> 
> ...



youve seen THESE kids crossing against the light and telling drivers to f' themselves? slash someones throat?? committing armed robbery??? i find that kind of hard to believe. 
your assuming that everyone in their age group is a dangerous criminal? well thats certainly not the case. theres a word for forming oppinions about people or groups without reason. should i link the definition for prejudice or can you figure that one out?

kids being kids? yes they were kids being kids actually.
and kids their age are sometimes skateboarders which means that they like to skateboard and thats all it means. anything more than that generalizes all skateboarders as being the same. 

expecting a child to be responsible for their actions is a great maturity builder in my oppinion. however how would your family feel if you were attacked by a cop for riding a bicycle across a large open public place just because you werent "supposed to"? id personally would be furious if someone thought it was ok to manhandle a child of mine for ANY reason let alone no reason at all. there is no way to call it acceptable!
(i changed skateboard to bicycle incase some people dont realize they are pretty much the same in this context. and see if it changes anything)

i agree with everyone who thinks that the kid in question shouldve acted more maturely and respectful, however answering someones question in a way that they dont like is not an excuse to put your hands on them or verbally assault them!


"I'll smack you upside the head"

"Your parents don't put a foot in your butt quite enough"

are people forgetting that they are defending someone who clearly thinks violence solves lifes little problems??


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 20, 2008)

You really think that kid was manhandled?

If my child came home and said a cop yelled at her for riding her bike somewhere she wasn't supposed to be riding it.....I would ask her what else she did to make the cop yell at her.

I don't understand this feeling sorry for the kids business.........I'm sure the police have nothing better to do then harass dopey teenage kids obeying the law.


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## LuzRD (Feb 20, 2008)

by definition, yes.
was the kid beaten or harmed? no. but that doesnt change the fact that officer Rivieri wrestled the skateboard from the boy and shoved him back to the ground when he tried to get up. he didnt tell the kid to give him the board until he was already wrestling for it, and he told the kid to sit down AS he was throwing him on the ground.
none of it seems reasonable to me in the least.

i COMPLETLY agree with you about a cop yelling at a child! and if this was a video showing officer Rivieri yelling at the kid in question with NO PERSONAL ATTACKS and not getting physical i would have zero problem with it. 
i feel sorry for anyone who is mistreated by anyone, and when it happens to be a cop that steps over the line alot of people see it as "theres nothing i can do about it". if there wasnt a video would you believe these kids if they told you that an officer started yelling at them and shoved one to the ground and in general flipped out simply because they were on skateboards and one of them wasnt respectful enough?


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 20, 2008)

MJS said:


> I don't think that kids should be allowed to do whatever they want, but there is a way to get your point across without having to act like the officer in the clip did.


 
I agree with you.....and maybe i sound like I am being a jerk.
BUT
Sometimes you gotta slap a person across the face to wake em up.


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## jks9199 (Feb 20, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> One thing I'm curious about is the terminology used here. In my country and in Europe we have 'police officers' in the States you have 'law enforcement officers' and I'm curious to know what differences people see between them as I think it has bearing on this thread.
> We've always held police officers to be 'servants of the people' not just there to uphold the law but to help people. it's for the protection of the weak as much as persecution of the criminals. It's only in recent times that the status of poilcie officers has fallen somewhat. They were and probably still are expected to set an example in behaviour not just for teens but for everyone. yes it's very hard when being abused to hold ones temper and reply politely but it's what you do because you have to be above the behaviour that you are trying to curtail.
> A police officer should behave respectfully towards everyone because he is the representative of the law, they have to be seen to impartial and just. It doesn't mean kowtowing to yobs or being weak. It means being strong, moral and not giving into having tantrums.
> Why behave respectfully to career criminals, murderers, gobby teenagers etc? Because it makes you the bigger person, above their standards and it makes you right!


 


Drac said:


> It's kind of interchangeable..Police Officers are refered to as Law Enforcement Officers or LEO's..It can get real confusing especially when you throw the Deputy Sheriffs into the mix..I call my buddy that works for Cuyahoga County Sheriffs Department "A Dep"...The one that works for the Highway Patrol "A Statie"..If you work in the jail you're "a C.O."...Confusing ain't it????


 
It's important to remember that there are some HUGE differences between US law enforcement and British law enforcement (and, in fact, government).  In the US, the basic unit of government is NOT the nation; it's the state or even, in some ways, the locality.  For a law enforcement perspective, that means that the law enforcement body with the most day-to-day interaction with people is from the smallest body of government, the municipality or county (if there is no municipality).  State law enforcement agencies often have full authority anywhere in the state, but only to enforce the state code.  Federal bodies only have authority for violations of federal laws, which often means they only have authority if the offense somehow is seen to cross state lines.  (And I'm actually over-simplifying all of this!)  Each force also has it's own name for it's actual law enforcers: municipalities often have "police" and "police officers, counties typically have "sheriff's offices" and sometimes police, state bodies typically are either highway patrols or police departments (both often titled officers)... and federal LEOs are typically "agents" or "special agents."

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, in 2004 there were more than 800,000 LEOs in approximately in more than 18,000 agencies in the US, including state, local, special jurisdictions, and federal law enforcement agencies.  The numbers are almost certainly similar today.  Most US law enforcement agencies are small, numbering less than 40 officers (and many are in teens or single digits).


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## MJS (Feb 20, 2008)

BlackCatBonz said:


> You really think that kid was manhandled?


 
Actually yes, I do.  What reason did he have for doing what he did?  To take the skate board away?  Why did he need to do that?  Did he take all of the boards?  IMO, he had no control over that situation.



> If my child came home and said a cop yelled at her for riding her bike somewhere she wasn't supposed to be riding it.....I would ask her what else she did to make the cop yell at her.


 
Why did he have to yell?  To instill some sort of fear into these kids?  And then people wonder why there is such disrespect for the cops.  Perhaps talking like a normal person, would have been a better approach.


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## MJS (Feb 20, 2008)

BlackCatBonz said:


> I agree with you.....and maybe i sound like I am being a jerk.
> BUT
> Sometimes you gotta slap a person across the face to wake em up.


 
No, I don't think you're being a jerk.  You're voicing your opinion, I'm voicing mine, and others are doing the same.  Some are agreeing and some disagreeing.  

I think that being firm and yelling are 2 different things.  This guy was saying things that IMO were not proper.


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## Ninjamom (Feb 21, 2008)

"Don't get defensive with me, son, or you'll spend some time in Juvenile"
_Possibly inflamatory, but not over the line._

"You give that attitude to your father - I'm not your father."
_Insulting and unnecessary._

*"You give that attitude to me, I'll smack you upside the head."*
*Illegal.*

Yelling: "Shut your mouth, I'm talking"
_Unprofessional_

He went from slightly inflamatory to simple assault in less than 35 seconds.

The kid was being an obnoxious twit.  But there is no way Officer Rivieri's actions are in any sense defensible, and I am apalled that a large percentage of people are excusing it.  I hope he gets fired, and I am sure he will get sued.

I made each of my children watch this video, several times.  We analyzed it together.  I had to tell them about the respect they must have for authority, whether the individual holder of that authority is behaving correctly or not.  I had to go over this officer's bad example and explain why they need to trust other authorities to handle it *later *(parent, other police officials, etc.), when any authority figure gets out of line - their responsiblity is still to respect the authority.  I had to force the conversation back to the behavior of the kids, who were roughly the same age as two of mine.

I made a point of how the conversation opens with one of the skateboarders saying, "Yes sir," and how that skateboarder is left alone and never even questioned again for the rest of the encounter.  It actually was a big help for my youngest son, who is high-functioning on the autism spectrum.  He was able to grasp the concept that, sometimes, the best thing to do in a situation is just shut up.

All-in-all, it was very helpful for my kids to see that video clip, however much I wish the incident had never happened.


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## LuzRD (Feb 21, 2008)

Ninjamom that is great that you were able to use this video in a positive way for your own kids!


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## Sukerkin (Feb 21, 2008)

I can fully understand the point of view so well expressed by *Ninjamon* above and applaud the way she was able to use the sad affair as a tool to teach something valuable to her children :tup:.

I do think that our discourse is polarising down the line between these two extremes:

a) Those who look at the situation as an exemplar of an authority figure stepping over the line of what they think to be reasonable enforcement of the law and thus infringing the 'rights' of the citizenry.

b) Those who look at the incident from the point of view of overall social and behavioural issues as they apply to limiting the effectiveness of policing in a negative sense.

As is often the case in such matters, both sides of the argument have valid elements and, ideally, it would be good to combine the two when it comes to having policing that is effective and 'nice' at the same time.

I do happen to think that if a population becomes too enthralled with its own rights and seeks to make sure that those rights are not curtailed by the police then that population will end up with a police force that cannot do what it is supposed to.

It's a 'you can't have it both ways' situation.

This is not to say that I do not concur that there are ways and means, besides aggressive shouting and physical dominance, of obtaining the goal of compliance to social rules.  I know that that is the main thrust behind many of the above posts condemning the officer in question for this incident.


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## Drac (Feb 21, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> It's important to remember that there are some HUGE differences between US law enforcement and British law enforcement (and, in fact, government). In the US, the basic unit of government is NOT the nation; it's the state or even, in some ways, the locality. For a law enforcement perspective, that means that the law enforcement body with the most day-to-day interaction with people is from the smallest body of government, the municipality or county (if there is no municipality). State law enforcement agencies often have full authority anywhere in the state, but only to enforce the state code. Federal bodies only have authority for violations of federal laws, which often means they only have authority if the offense somehow is seen to cross state lines. (And I'm actually over-simplifying all of this!) Each force also has it's own name for it's actual law enforcers: municipalities often have "police" and "police officers, counties typically have "sheriff's offices" and sometimes police, state bodies typically are either highway patrols or police departments (both often titled officers)... and federal LEOs are typically "agents" or "special agents."
> 
> According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, in 2004 there were more than 800,000 LEOs in approximately in more than 18,000 agencies in the US, including state, local, special jurisdictions, and federal law enforcement agencies. The numbers are almost certainly similar today. Most US law enforcement agencies are small, numbering less than 40 officers (and many are in teens or single digits).


 
ALl true...Yeah, I keep forgetting that Tez3 is in the UK...


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## thardey (Feb 21, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> It's a 'you can't have it both ways' situation.
> 
> This is not to say that I do not concur that there are ways and means, besides aggressive shouting and physical dominance, of obtaining the goal of compliance to social rules.  I know that that is the main thrust behind many of the above posts condemning the officer in question for this incident.



I don't think anybody here is really defending the idea that the kids should be disrespectful to authority, nor are people lacking in frustration that disrespect in rampant in our society, and wanting to change it -- people are frustrated that this officer brought down the general level of respect for authority in general -- he added to the problem.

I mean, think back to when you were a kid, and you had to deal with adults who had lost your respect. I had a friend whose dad yelled a lot, and every time he did, I lost respect for him, because it seemed as though he yelled out of powerlessness to actually do anything. 

Yes, the officer should have corrected the kid, yes, the kid may have deserved a hard object lesson (read that how you will), but the way the guy dealt with it, it just came across as impotence and frustration. The kids gonna lose respect for this guy, not learn it. I know I lost respect for him.


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## myusername (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm quite late in seeing this thread so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said, but I am shocked and appalled by this policeman's attitude! He was behaving like a big bully and is actions are undefencable! 

I notice some people talking about the disrespect of the youngster calling him dude but all I can see is that the kid was shaken up and in shock! I believe children should be taught to behave respectfully towards authority but there is also a case to be said for respect being earned not just learned. 

When I was a kid at school I quite often got into trouble with the same teachers on a regular basis  where as I had a very good relationship with most others and never pushed the boundaries. Looking back it was clear that I behaved worse around the loud and abusive teachers because they lost my respect by being aggressive and throwing what were nothing more than tantrums to exert their authority. (These were mainly PE/Games teachers and one very stern assistant headmistress!). I'm not saying that was neccesarily right but I wasn't a typical troublemaker and I believe it was something about those particular teachers that brought that behaviour out in me. The officers approach to discipline in that video reminds me very much of those teachers.

I know that many will disagree with me but I think that it is a healthier society that allows children to question authority as long as they do so respectfully. A blind faith in authority often leads to abuse -you only have to look at the historical cases of peadophilia in the catholic church to see the dangers of such a culture.

Mark


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## LuzRD (Feb 22, 2008)

some very good points Mark

you reminded me of my time in high school where some teachers (those that didnt earn my respect for whatever reason) thought of me as a troublemaker. in my oppinion it is because i didnt accept what they said as "law" and was more than willing to question just about anything. and there were teachers who would show everyone respect and were treated accordingly.




do unto others as you would have them do unto you

live and let live

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
...


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 22, 2008)

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.........

there is some scripture that gives one pause for thought.

I guess the kid was getting what he was giving.


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## KenpoTex (Feb 22, 2008)

my thoughts after reading through this thread...


Was the kid being an annoying, disrespectful little ****? YES.
Did he deserve what he got? YES! I know I was raised a little differently than many kids are today (and differently than many of my peers for that matter...). I was raised to have and show respect to everyone, especially those in positions of authority or in public service (LE, military, etc.). If, as a kid, I addressed a police officer, or for that matter any adult, as "dude," my dad would have whacked me upside the head (for the record, my dad was both Mil. and LE at different times in his life).
now for the important question:

Should _the officer_ have given the kid "what he deserved?" *NO*. I believe that in this instance, the officer lost his temper and allowed his emotions to control him. I can _definately_ understand his frustration (as I've dealt with almost identical situations myself and would have _loved_ to have put the little bastards on the ground), but to allow the actions of this kid to influence his in the manner that he did was unprofessional.
As has been stated, sometimes you can "be nice" if you're dealing with someone who will respond to that type of treatment. There are other times when you have to get mean because there are people who won't respond to anything but that type of language or delivery. 
Allow me to borrow George Thompson's terms "Verbal Judo" and "Verbal Karate." Many times I've been able to use the Verbal Judo "Sir/Ma'am, can you help me out and do...whatever." Other times I've had to shift into the "Verbal Karate," that is, language that would blister the paint on the asphalt delivered at a volume that normally mandates hearing protection. 

You have to know which is appropriate for the current situation and, many times, be able to go from one to the other and back in the same conversation. 

As for what should happen to the officer...
I don't feel that he should be fired over this incident but I think he might be a better fit in a different assignment. IMO, there are two basic types of officer personalities. I'll call them the "social worker" and the "***-kicker" (hereafter "SW" and "AK"). Some people are capable of performing both roles depending on the context of the situation, other people are one or the other. To put a SW in a situation that calls for an AK is a recipe for disaster and usually does not end well because the officer cannot maintain control of the situation. Conversely, put an AK into a situation that calls for a SW and you end up with what we've seen in this video. This doesn't mean either group are "bad cops," just that they should be working in an environment appropriate to their talents. This guy would probably be better off if he was not working an assignment where he was interacting with teenaged skater-punks and tourists.

just my $0.02


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## myusername (Feb 23, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> my thoughts after reading through this thread...
> Was the kid being an annoying, disrespectful little ****? YES.
> Did he deserve what he got? YES! I know I was raised a little differently than many kids are today (and differently than many of my peers for that matter...). I was raised to have and show respect to everyone, especially those in positions of authority or in public service (LE, military, etc.). If, as a kid, I addressed a police officer, or for that matter any adult, as "dude," my dad would have whacked me upside the head (for the record, my dad was both Mil. and LE at different times in his life).
> now for the important question:
> ...



I think I agree with you on some points in this post. Mostly when you say that the officer in question acted unprofessionally and I particularly like the "verbal Judo" and "Verbal Karate" example! However, let us agree to disagree on your assessment of the teenager in the clip as you seem to see a disrespectful brat/skaterboy whereas I see a frightened teenager not knowing how to respond to sudden aggression and I doubt we will meet in middle on that point!

The thing that interests me in this post is the idea that you need both personalities ("social workers" SW and "*** kickers" AK) in a policeforce and that with some psychological profiling it may be possible to match the personality type to the task. I can see where you are coming from when you say that some situations require a softly, softly approach whilst others require a very firm no nonsense approach but I can't see why an intelligent professional would not be able to manage both. 

Surely both the SW and AK are bad cops because one is too passive to be truly effective and the other too aggressive. I believe an aggressive personality is going to be no better than a passive one in maintaining boundaries as esculating a situation is more likely to lead to further boundary pushing and increase the risk of aggression being met with aggression. Both passive and aggressive people are ineffective authority figures and a liability to their colleagues and the general public.

What people expect from police officers is for them to be assertive. Being assertive is very different from being passive and worlds away from being aggressive! An assertive person is not a pushover, an assertive person will set very clear and firm boundaries whilst still communicating respect for the individual. I think that both passive and aggressive personality types would be dangerous in a police force and would fail to benefit any situation. If I dialled 999 (911 for you guys!) I would expect and want a police officer to attend not a social worker or an *** kicker.


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2008)

Myusername, you've hit the nail on the head precisely! An assertive personality is exactly the type who can control most situations and makes the best police officer. I was taught and firmly believe that once you start shouting you have lost control of the situation, if the lads were going to hit him with the skateboards he wouldn't have seen it coming, if the lads were winding him up he let them succeed and control the situation.


_"What people expect from police officers is for them to be assertive. Being assertive is very different from being passive and worlds away from being aggressive! *An assertive person is not a pushover, an assertive* *person will set very clear and firm boundaries whilst still communicating respect for the individual*. I think that both passive and aggressive personality types would be dangerous in a police force and would fail to benefit any situation. If I dialled 999 (911 for you guys!) I would expect and want a police officer to attend not a social worker or an *** kicker_."

Absolutely spot on and exactly right!


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## KenpoTex (Feb 23, 2008)

myusername, your definition of assertive fits with the type of person I had in mind when I mentioned someone that could handle both roles or deal with situations on opposite ends of the spectrum.  I could/should have communicated that more clearly and elaborated a little more.


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## Guardian (Feb 23, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Same guy, another civilian.


*Seem like this Officer (and I'll use that term loosely) here as a anger problem for people just enjoying themselfs.  *

*Abuse of power will sooner or later get himself killed or someone else killed.  He'll run into the wrong person not doing anything significantly law breaking and start his pushing them around and someone will snap and then what?*

*How long do you let abuse go on before something bad happens.  We'll see.*

*G*


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## MJS (Feb 23, 2008)

BlackCatBonz said:


> I guess the kid was getting what he was giving.


 
Hmm..are we watching the same clip here?  IIRC, I didn't see the kid acting like a nutcase like the cop was doing.


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 24, 2008)

MJS said:


> Hmm..are we watching the same clip here? IIRC, I didn't see the kid acting like a nutcase like the cop was doing.


 
I think it's pretty nutty to disrespect the police.
If a police officer gives you an order.....you follow it.


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## Kwan Jang (Feb 24, 2008)

I am the son of a former LEO and something my father always told me when he was in that professions was "if you don't respect what the badge stands for, no one else will". Based on what was shown on that video, that meter maid (er... officer) has an incredible case of "blue fever" and needs to remember that to "protect and serve" is his job.

 I am not a liberal and I really go out of my way to support LEO's and give them the benefit of the doubt (I am even a certified tactical trainer), but this guy needs to remember that if he doesn't respect the public he serves (even kids), then they will lose respect for him and his department. If that happens, then that little piece of metal (badge) is more of a target than protection.


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## LuzRD (Feb 24, 2008)

I think its pretty nutty to believe that someone will always be in the right simply because they were hired for a specific job. 

I think its pretty nutty for a cop to disrespect civilians.

I think its pretty nutty when a civilian refuses to question authority, and trusts in strangers to do the right thing.

I think its pretty nutty that not only do some people want to be controled, but that they also want the rest of us to comply and serve their masters.

I think its pretty nutty that in America i consider so many people to be anything but American.


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## Tez3 (Feb 24, 2008)

BlackCatBonz said:


> I think it's pretty nutty to disrespect the police.
> If a police officer gives you an order.....you follow it.


 
A police officers job isn't to exact revenge for wrong doings.It's not even to decide whether someone is guilty or not. They can arrest people who in their opinion have broken the law, from there it's to be decided by the justice system not the police officer who should remain objective at all times. Is that hard, yes it is but it's the way it should be done. It's not a job that should be ruled by an individuals ego.  
Why should you automatically follow an 'order' from a police officer? I don't expect instant obedience of the military type, I always try to explain first why I want someone to do something. It's how I'd want to be talked to, as an intelligent adult, it also produces better results and less aggression, alsway a good thing. A sense of humour is a wonderful tool by the way. Ok many people we talk to aren't intelligent adults but they should be spoken to as if they are.Yes there are situations where you don't have time to talk but that's when you need a clear head and have the ability to think on your feet. 
People can disrespect the police but part of a police officers job is not to be dragged down to that level, to remain calm, assertive ( as has already been well pointed out) and in control of the situation.


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## MJS (Feb 24, 2008)

BlackCatBonz said:


> I think it's pretty nutty to disrespect the police.
> If a police officer gives you an order.....you follow it.


 
And considering that a LEO deals with a wide variety of people, he/she needs to, or should, adjust their attitude for each situation.  I agree, people should respect the police.  Some do and some don't.  This cop started off on the wrong foot from the beginning.  This kid wasn't a threat to the cop.  If he had his Ipod in, its possible he didn't hear him.  I'm not defending the kid, I'm stating a possibility.  

He takes 1 board away.  What about the others?  He could have very easily spoken firm, without acting like a nut.  

One has to wonder...would he have acted like that had he been dealing with older people?


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## MJS (Feb 24, 2008)

Kwan Jang said:


> I am the son of a former LEO and something my father always told me when he was in that professions was "if you don't respect what the badge stands for, no one else will". Based on what was shown on that video, that meter maid (er... officer) has an incredible case of "blue fever" and needs to remember that to "protect and serve" is his job.
> 
> I am not a liberal and I really go out of my way to support LEO's and give them the benefit of the doubt (I am even a certified tactical trainer), but this guy needs to remember that if he doesn't respect the public he serves (even kids), then they will lose respect for him and his department. If that happens, then that little piece of metal (badge) is more of a target than protection.


 
Exactly!  I most likely would not be typing this right now, had I acted like this cop, when I worked in Corrections.  Imagine talking like that to someone, who is facing life in prison?  The guy has nothing to lose by taking a swing at me, stabbing me or worse.  Whats going to happen...a few days without visits or phone?  Not a big loss for someone like that.

My point is, despite an inmate having the potential to be the biggest dirtbag walking, I still needed to respect them.  I'm not saying let them walk all over me, but as I always say, respect is a 2 way street.


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## taitsechien (Feb 25, 2008)

i've only been skimming peoples responses to this... but my personal belief is that a police officer doesn't deserve respect just for wearing a badge and carrying a gun... a person who bullys 14 year old kids cause he can needs to get punched in the head... the sad truth of our society is that he can hide behind that badge and manhandle little kids... if that kid was my kid... i'd try to fight the cop... i'd try real hard... and unfortunately i'd go to jail...  the kid may have been breaking the law... but he wasn't skateboarding anymore... the cop could have just said get lost... and went to deal with real criminals... but instead... (and i can't get over this) manhandles the kid and puts him to the ground... seriously wtf... he is just a bully, straight up, not a person that deserves any respect from anyone... if a cop wants my respect they should be out there trying to help people rather than pushing people smaller then them... no only smaller than them, but obviously oblivious to whats going on... that kid could have never expected a grown man to act like such a fool... calling someone dude is not disrespectful, and if you think it is wouldn't it make more sense to explain that in a civilized tone, than yelling it at the top of your lungs like a moron.... wooo glad i got that out of my symptom...


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## myusername (Feb 25, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> A police officers job isn't to exact revenge for wrong doings.It's not even to decide whether someone is guilty or not. They can arrest people who in their opinion have broken the law, from there it's to be decided by the justice system not the police officer who should remain objective at all times. Is that hard, yes it is but it's the way it should be done. It's not a job that should be ruled by an individuals ego.
> Why should you automatically follow an 'order' from a police officer? I don't expect instant obedience of the military type, I always try to explain first why I want someone to do something. It's how I'd want to be talked to, as an intelligent adult, it also produces better results and less aggression, alsway a good thing. A sense of humour is a wonderful tool by the way. Ok many people we talk to aren't intelligent adults but they should be spoken to as if they are.Yes there are situations where you don't have time to talk but that's when you need a clear head and have the ability to think on your feet.
> People can disrespect the police but part of a police officers job is not to be dragged down to that level, to remain calm, assertive ( as has already been well pointed out) and in control of the situation.



This is the only kind of person you want in the police! This kind of policeman is a human being doing a difficult job and will always have my respect and the respect of the public. How very different from the abusive monster that is Officer Riverie -(probably spelt the dudes name wrong but I guess I really don't have enough respect for this guy to look it up and spell it correctly!)


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## myusername (Feb 25, 2008)

taitsechien said:


> i've only been skimming peoples responses to this... but my personal belief is that a police officer doesn't deserve respect just for wearing a badge and carrying a gun... a person who bullys 14 year old kids cause he can needs to get punched in the head... the sad truth of our society is that he can hide behind that badge and manhandle little kids... if that kid was my kid... i'd try to fight the cop... i'd try real hard... and unfortunately i'd go to jail...  the kid may have been breaking the law... but he wasn't skateboarding anymore... the cop could have just said get lost... and went to deal with real criminals... but instead... (and i can't get over this) manhandles the kid and puts him to the ground... seriously wtf... he is just a bully, straight up, not a person that deserves any respect from anyone... if a cop wants my respect they should be out there trying to help people rather than pushing people smaller then them... no only smaller than them, but obviously oblivious to whats going on... that kid could have never expected a grown man to act like such a fool... calling someone dude is not disrespectful, and if you think it is wouldn't it make more sense to explain that in a civilized tone, than yelling it at the top of your lungs like a moron.... wooo glad i got that out of my symptom...



I echo your sentiments on this and watching that video made me think about how I would have felt and handled that situation, especially when I was a hot headed teenager! I hope now that I am a mature adult I would be able to roll with this guys aggression and keep my big mouth shut (whether I would be able to keep my frustration swallowed if he actually manhandled me like this poor kid is a harder question!) But I remember being that kids age and remember how much I despised being bullied and I could easily have ended up with a criminal record if I had met a policeman like Officer Dude! I know that if I were going to be definately charged with assualting a police officer at that age I would have thought to myself "I better get my money's worth then!"

That idiots attitude could have ended in that innocent boy having a criminal record and ruining that kids future employment prospects!


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## jks9199 (Feb 25, 2008)

myusername said:


> That idiots attitude could have ended in that innocent boy having a criminal record and ruining that kids future employment prospects!



A few things worth noting...

First, the officer's response WAS NOT random.  He addressed a group of kids, initially verbally from a distance.  They failed to respond, and he approached.  One became more confrontational than the others; the camera doesn't show, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was still standing on his skateboard.  (I've been there, had exactly that happen, when I've told the group to stop, and one continues.)

Second, as I've said, his use of force was limited.  I'm not rehashing it again; you can read the explanation earlier in the thread.

Third, it's not the cop's job to worry about a kid's future job prospects!   It's the cop's job to enforce the law.  There is so much wrong with the idea of having a cop worry about the future job prospects of a kid that I'm having trouble figuring out where to start.  Yes, there is a time and place for using appropriate and reasonable discretion in handling kids -- but nearly every cop I know will tell you that one of the biggest reasons that we have increasing problems with juvenile delinquency is inadequate responses by the courts, precisely because the judges and intake officers are worrying about the "poor kid's future."  

*IF the kid is old enough to make his own decisions, he's old enough for those decisions to have consequences.*  The consequence must be significant enough to deter future problem behavior -- but balanced.  For example, I worked a case where a bunch of middle school kids marked up some playground equipment, causing a couple of thousand dollars worth of damage.  (By the way, skaters often cause this much or more damage.)  In the course of my investigation, I came to the conclusion that this wasn't "youthful stupidity"; it was handled through a less formal, one-time (per person) option in our courts which does not produce a formal criminal record or arrest.  On the other hand, a case where a single kid, only a few years older, was responsible for several graffiti incidents, each being well over $1000 dollars in damage, was handled formally, with felony charges.  To the best of my knowledge, he has not re-offended.

And, again, I'm not giving the officer a pass.  He handled this unprofessionally.  His rant created a bad impression, and probably was ineffective.  At the very least, he comes off looking bad.  But... can any of the folks casting stones at him here say they've handled every situation in their life perfectly?  Or have never lost their temper at kids?


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## taitsechien (Feb 25, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> And, again, I'm not giving the officer a pass. He handled this unprofessionally. His rant created a bad impression, and probably was ineffective. At the very least, he comes off looking bad. But... can any of the folks casting stones at him here say they've handled every situation in their life perfectly? Or have never lost their temper at kids?




I've handled alot of things badly in my life... but i teach kids karate... and if i were to ever lose my temper like that at kids... i'd lose my job... and maybe even get sued... i totally understanding losing your temper... but if its your a job... and your a public figure like a cop... you better be ready to hold you temper... and be ready to be scrutinized, and held accountable, for your actions... if a police officer wants my respect they bette respect that they are a public figure that can't go around freaking out at little kids... and i would argue his force on that kid was in no way reasonable... he outweighed him by at least X2... he put the kid all the way to the ground... and the kid obviously was not a threat... he was completly lucid when officer dude grabbed a hold of him, with no intent of fighting back...


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## myusername (Feb 25, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> A few things worth noting...
> 
> First, the officer's response WAS NOT random.  He addressed a group of kids, initially verbally from a distance.  They failed to respond, and he approached.  One became more confrontational than the others; the camera doesn't show, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was still standing on his skateboard.  (I've been there, had exactly that happen, when I've told the group to stop, and one continues.)
> 
> ...



I'm sorry but a few points need to be addressed here. Firstly, nobody is suggesting that the cops approach was random what we are suggesting is that the aggression was. The criticism is of his aggressive approach not the fact that he approached the kids in the first place.

Second you say that his use of force was limited! He had no need and therefore no right to invade that boys personal space and yet he did so in a very uncontrolled and angry fashion. What I witnessed on that video does not appear as reasonable force and is certainly not proportianate to the situation so therefore the amount of force was excessive rather than limited! What that bully did was assault a child.


Thirdly, I feel that you have misunderstood or taken out of context my original comment _"That idiots attitude could have ended in that innocent boy having a criminal record and ruining that kids future employment prospects!". _I am not suggesting for a second that a part of a cops priorities should be considering how an offenders resume will look after being charged! 

What I was getting at was that the officer in question (and only the officer in question) was so aggressive and so absolutely, fundementally wrong that if that boy had retaliated and kicked out as he was being manhandled he would have ended up with a criminal record through a situation that need not have happened and only happened due to the very poor skills and attitude of the officer in that clip.

And finally to answer your question: "_But... can any of the folks casting stones at him here say they've handled every situation in their life perfectly? Or have never lost their temper at kids?_"

No I have not handled every situation in my life correctly but I can say hand on heart that I have never abused a position of authority like the thug in that clip. I am a trained mental health nurse who has worked in secure units and on challenging behaviour wards. I am no stranger to dealing with people who push boundaries.

As an example, I have had a man with borderline personality disorder screaming in my face telling me what horrendous things he was going to do to my girlfriend if he were to get out! He wasn't physically attacking me so I did not take him to the floor as that would have constituted unreasonable force and would not have been proportianate to the level of threat. I verbally de-esculated the man and verbally enforced boundaries 2 hours later when he had settled down. I behaved like that because I was a professional. Every day, from the moment I walked onto the ward, I was a mental health nurse first and foremost and therefore behaved as a professional person should.

The same should be the case for Officer Dude! The moment he puts on that badge and those shorts he should be in the professional mindset. From the look of that clip and the other one concerning the art student it is clear that this is not the case. He is a walking abuse of authority and a danger to the public and his colleagues. There is no excuse for his behaviour.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 25, 2008)

I'm sorry to those that have been enjoying judging Officer Dude, especially those of English extraction but I fundamentally do not agree with your stance.  

I am not necessarily now addressing the specific actions under discussion because, in the wider scheme of things, they are not relevant; they are exemplars of an officer whose taken enough nonsense on any given day (more than once it seems) and left bleeding-heart-liberalism behind for a few minutes.

What is relevant is the self-deluding 'Entitlement Culture' that has sprung up first in Amerca and now here.  

In America it is understandable because of the Constitution but here in Britain?  I am astounded to hear members of my own society speaking in the way they have in this thread.  *Tez* I can understand because she speaks from a professional, military police, background.  But for other 'common' subjects!

*Myusername* your profile does not mention your age but I'm guessing you're very young?  In fact did I imagine reading you saying you were 17?  Regardless, please assume that *I'm* assuming you were not of cognisant age during the miners strike of the early '80's (forgive me if I'm wrong)?  

Do not be fooled by the ever-so-soft approach that has been taken since then.  Do not think that just because you protest your 'rights' that you actually have any.

Do I think that this is a 'good thing'?  No, not really; but it is a realistic way to approach the subject.  

Here in Britain we have no more 'rights' than the Crown decides we're allowed. Law enforcement is not for 'our' (the working class) benefit but for that of the property owners.  The soft approach will last for just as long as the masses do not present a problem.  If it becomes in the vested interests of the ruling classes to revert to an earlier standard of policing, the sort that gave us the Tolpuddle Martyrs, don't get in the way.

My guess is that shortly we shall be seeing a much more 'right wing' (in the totalitarian sense) backlash to the current lawless lack of appropriate respect (aka fear) of the ruling classes.  If we can rein in the idiocy of those who only think of their _own_ rights and not those of others we may have a chance of forstalling this.  

If we continue down the route of the "Eastenders" culture of "I can do what I want, no matter how argumentative or how it inconveniences others" then we shall shortly see a dissolution of the society we managed to cobble together in the aftermath of two world wars.

People should think less of themselves and more of their fellows otherwise you will find that the fantasies of Big Brother (Orwell not Channel 4) are all too real.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 26, 2008)

My apologies for the somewhat less than coherent phrasing and dramatised wording of my post above.  It was very late and I was trying to be brief whilst addressing quite a broad issue.

I don't think I succeeded terribly well in making my point and I hope that it's not read as being too argumentative.  I also hope I haven't de-railed the thread by speaking about a topic that is parallel to the OP i.e. the purpose and nature of day-to-day policing.


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## myusername (Feb 26, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I'm sorry to those that have been enjoying judging Officer Dude, especially those of English extraction but I fundamentally do not agree with your stance.
> 
> I am not necessarily now addressing the specific actions under discussion because, in the wider scheme of things, they are not relevant; they are exemplars of an officer whose taken enough nonsense on any given day (more than once it seems) and left bleeding-heart-liberalism behind for a few minutes.
> 
> ...



I must admit it has taken me a little while to compose myself after reading the above post as I could not help but feel a little patronised! Though reading your apologetic post afterwards it is clear to me you were not intentionally being argumentative and also reading some of your other posts on this forum it is clear that you are a gentleman and I could very well have taken it the wrong way.

However, just to clarify I am not 17 years old but I am 28 (not that age has any real importance on this issue).

I would also like to add that my opinions on aggressive, assertive and passive behaviour, professional conduct and the use of reasonable force are informed by my being a qualifed mental health nurse who has worked in forensic settings, challenging behaviour wards and most recently in a drug and alcohol detox centre. 

I am very experienced in de-esculating aggressive behaviour and maintaining safe boundaries in difficult circumstances. I am experienced in control and restraint and the management of conflict. I am very aware of the ethical implications of being in a position of authority and what constitutes abuse of authority as the patients under my care in the mental health field were detained under the mental health act. In addition, currently on the detox ward we have a rolling program of group work that teaches social and life skills to our patients and I regularly run the assertiveness group amongst others.

Although I acknowledge that the roles of a policeman and a mental health nurse differ in numerous ways I feel that they should share a similar skill set specifically in the area of effective communication. The officer debated demonstrates a complete lack of communication skills and presents with no awareness of the effects of aggression and as such poses a threat to society and his colleagues. His actions are unprofessional and as a professional he deserves to be held accountable for them and if that means a suspension (hopefully leading to dismissal) and to be publically critisised and ridiculed on internet forums so be it!

In regards to your assertion that the officers specific actions are not relevant on this thread because they are just _"exemplars of an officer whose taken enough nonsense on any given day (more than once it seems) and left bleeding-heart-liberalism behind for a few minutes."_ I could not disagree more. From what I read of the original post it was an invitation for people to view the clip and then pass comment and discuss what they saw. I am afraid it is yourself only that has plumped for the idea that "Entitlement Culture" is the only real issue that needs to be discussed.

Your views on that subject itself appear a little confused and apathetic to say the least! I think it would be a real shame if everybody shared the viewpoint that one should just accept the status quo and never question authority! You mentioned the Tolpuddle martyrs almost as a warning never to speak up for your rights when in fact they are a symbol and inspiration of the reasons why we should! The Tolpuddle Martrys managed to change things (although at a personal cost). If it were not for trade unionism we would not enjoy many of the rights we do today.

As for the _Big Brother_ reference and the clarification that you meant the George Orwell novel 1984 and not the low brow channel 4 TV format I must say that I found that part of your post the most patronising! However, considering the differences we obviously have in our views on the need to challenge authority and defend our rights perhaps a more damning Orwellian reference you could throw at me would be _Animal Farm_ that serves to highlight the futility of socialism!

Sorry for the rant but that post just got under my skin a little! Like I said at the beginning, your other posts seem to reflect that you are a gentleman and patronising me may not have been your initail intention.

Cheers Mark


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## Errant108 (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm from Baltimore, where this incident took place.

The officer used force on a subject who was not under arrest and therefore not resisting arrest and was not a threat to the officer or those around him.  He has been suspended.

Crime is a huge problem in Baltimore.  We have one of the highest murder rates in the country.  We have innocent young women being nearly beaten to death on public buses.  The heroin problem in Baltimore is an epidemic.  If anyone has watched HBO's "The Wire", that's literally how it is in Baltimore, without exagerration.

There is no justification for this officer's behavior...against a skateboarder.  A skateboarder.

Not a drug dealer.

Not a gang banger.

Not a thug.

A smart *** kid on a skateboard.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm very sorry *Myusername*, it really just goes to show what I've often said about text fora as a means of communication, especially for serious issues - it's terrifyingly easy to have what you typed be read in a way very different to what you intended .

I'm glad that you realised that I didn't set out to patronise or insult and I would've been better not to mention your username at all, for it makes it seem as if everything that follows it is addressed directly at you (particularly when my use of what I meant as plural "you" reads like singular "You") :blush:.  

Apologies once more, especially as I didn't even manage to complete or phrase well the thought that arose when I read the read the last paragraph in your post above mine i.e. that abuse of authority has been much more extreme in the recent past than what we (hear about) these days.  

That's why I mentioned age {and I got you confused with someone else too there :double blush:} as having been out and about during those scary times really brought home the point about the general public only having those rights we're permitted.

I hope we can put aside my manifestly poor writing of last night, I was exhausted and the lack of coherence is embarassing - as is the lack of self-critique of what I wrote before posting.


You're quite correct in pointing out that I'm not really talking about the behaviour of the officer in these incidents but a different issue.  

You're also correct in saying that I lifted from the run of posts in the thread, rather than the video, a sense of 'Entitlement Culture' and spoke to that rather than the video.  

I can also see, properly re-reading what my own words actually were rather than what I _thought_ I was saying, why another would get the impression I was espousing that we should just accept a 'police state' rather than resisting it.  What I was blathering towards (and not quite getting to the point) is that an overly vigorous reaction to 'small scale' bad policing could serve as a trigger for an authoritarian backlash.

Reading my Tolpuddle Martyrs paragraph, I can't believe I made such a hash of what I meant to say!   As you say, I was referencing it as a 'warning' from the past but in the sense that if those in power decide on a course of action, then protest which obstructs that course will result in quite fearsome reaction.  In such cases the route of protest has to be tangential if those protesting are not to be violently silenced.  Given the longer term outcome of what happened in Tolpuddle, it was a bad example anyway .  

The Miners Strike would actually have been a better one to highlight, as for all the protests and strong public support, we still failed to prevent the destruction of the NUM and the industry itself. As a student at the time, I did support them in what small practical ways I could manage (a picket here, a few quid there) so I think that our views are perhaps closer than the exchange in the past few posts would suggest.

Regardless, it is really something to talk about in another thread rather than here, so I wont bang the drum any further.  I've only 'run on' somewhat here, rather than in a PM, because I believe that *public* apologies are best when you've upset someone and are genuinely contrite - most especially when you also want to clarify what you meant (I'm still having trouble with that bit ).

Cheers

Mark


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## myusername (Feb 26, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I'm very sorry *Myusername*, it really just goes to show what I've often said about text fora as a means of communication, especially for serious issues - it's terrifyingly easy to have what you typed be read in a way very different to what you intended .



Thank you very much for the apology Sukerkin you are a true gent! You are spot on about the dangers of text based communication! I can see a little clearer as to what you were talking about now in your original post. :asian:

Thank you again,
Mark


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