# Up and Down motion!



## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 10, 2006)

I was watching a sparring match the other day and one practitioner used the up and down motion to totally dominate in betwen using other strikes.
How many people use this regularly when sparring and what do you like or dislike about it.


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## Carol (Oct 10, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I was watching a sparring match the other day and one practitioner used the up and down motion to totally dominate in betwen using other strikes.
> How many people use this regularly when sparring and what do you like or dislike about it.


 
Haven't used it yet.   Hopefully some other folks have, I'd be anxious to learn myself.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 10, 2006)

Carol,

I use and teach this motion regularly.  When mixed in with Downward Figure eights, side to side motions and abinico (wrist strikes) it can really give you an advantage because of the speed from A to B on a straight line.  I hope that some other practitioners will give their takes on why they like this motion or why they do not.


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## kailat (Oct 10, 2006)

hmmm,  well if im understanding the "up and down motion" as its being directed here.. im only assuming we are talking about a high line and low line aggressive attack? Not sure exactly what were reffering too here.

One of the most common attacks as derived from JKD as the PROGRESSIVE INDIRECT ATTACT (PIA)...

when progressivly starting at one point (be it a high line or low line) and adversely changing in mid stride to the opposite line gaining a quick overthrow of the opponents ability to respond. Becuase action is faster then reaction in this sense. I have used this and it works quite well.. Not 100% effective however it does work some 85% or more of the times. 

When having an opponent in a semi close range or stand up grappling range, and tied up, one of the better techniques is to strike low, then high to regain or gain a positive position of your attacker...
Silat calls this "PETJUT" known as a "whipping" motion..

It's more of a forward/backward motion but im certain it can be used in an up and down manner as well.. hope i helped here...not sure though.

possibly you can elaborate more on this


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## Tony Torre (Oct 10, 2006)

I use and teach that motion.  We call it rompida.  My favorite application of this technique is as a counter to a figure 8 attack.  The way I most commonly use it is when my opponent is trying to close with me while hiding behind a continual figure eight.  I shuffle slightly backwards and hit his hand.  I like to couple this with an aggressive forward figure eight of my own, once I've gotten his attention with a good hand hit.  If he retreats I'll run him over my own continual figure eights.

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 10, 2006)

Up and down motion in Modern Arnis and many other Filipino Martial Arts is typically with an upward motion with the back of the stick and a downward motion with the front of the stick.  Think of having a stick in your hand and just bringing it up and then back down.  Or if you have a long knife (espada) then the back of the blade hits or the small bladed portion on the backside and then the downward motion comes down with the full bladed side being the focus for the strike.

Another variation is Rompida where you turn the stick so that where the front of the blade is will always be the focus for striking.

These two variations are different even though they both cover the upward and downward motion.  I looked for some video clips and could not find any so if anyone has some it would be great if you could post them.


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## kailat (Oct 10, 2006)

"ROMPIDA"  Okay so im following this a bit more adversley here...

HIGH, LOW, HIGH strikes.. Feinting, or rapid attack from one line to another line.. 

When offensivly trying to overcome your opponent it is usually a general rule of thumb to "confuse" your opponent w/ speed, timing, and accuracy...not so much brute force or strength.. when sparring solo baston, the Angle #2 and Angle #10 (in some systems). Usually work great together to beat an defensive position.. One that really works well is a "PROBE" i like to probe the foot area by smashing the floor near the foot then retract w/ a redondo to the hand/wrist...then abanico high back to the up/down motion HLH attack.. this works well against unexperienced eskrimador or non-stick fighting person.. however a more stratigic method is in line for a more experienced eskrimador..  just my .2 worth...

have a good one
Guro Cory
www.imaa.proboards20.com


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 10, 2006)

Hey Cory,

Thanks for putting in your .02 cents worth!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 10, 2006)

I use this several ways. 

A.  I like to use it in an aggressive attacking pattern fitted in with other strikes coming from different angles then flowing into the up and down motion once they are concentrating on different angles and vice versa.

B.  I like to use it against someone who twirls alot and just target their hand, wrist and forearms and the intersecting point.

C.  I like to use it against someone who is just not controlling the distance well and allows me to strike at their weapon bearing hand in and up and down motion for a quick and immediate disarm.

D.  If someone where to surprive me I might just use this as a defensive counter reaction to create space and regain control of the distance.

Lots of different ways to use it.  If you have some more input let me know.


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## kailat (Oct 10, 2006)

interesting Points Brian...I follow exactly where your going here.. although i've not been able to pull off much of the "X" pattern motions in applicational sparring.. but then again its really not a particular movement i've actually put alot of time and effort in trying to perfect nor apply..Defenitly something i'll try to play w/ more.  In Largo Mano range that is a very common pattern of movements correct?  I know from training Largo we drilled this over and over with the angle's of attack..

But It's never something i've put into application.  Ive always tend to stick w/ what works, which is sometimes a more of a hindrence when ever encountering a more experienced fighter.  It's really hard to get in there when going full contact w/ the gear on sparring full contact at a high rate of speed to pull off and make them effective.  Again this is a great point and sometimes in essense of it all hindsite is 20/20.

be well

Guro Cory
www.imaa.proboards20.com


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## Guro Harold (Oct 10, 2006)

When you examine the diagram for the major striking styles, the Up and Down striking pattern intersects most of them. It is designed to protect and attack the centerline.

My daughter, who will be 4 years old in a week in a half, has been able to do much damage (to "Da Da") with this striking style since she was three.


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## bydand (Oct 10, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I use this several ways.
> 
> A.  I like to use it in an aggressive attacking pattern fitted in with other strikes coming from different angles then flowing into the up and down motion once they are concentrating on different angles and vice versa.
> 
> ...



Sound a lot like we use as well.  I like it, but it is difficult.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 10, 2006)

Palusut said:


> When you examine the diagram for the major striking styles, the Up and Down striking pattern intersects most of them. It is designed to protect and attack the centerline.
> 
> My daughter, who will be 4 years old in a week in a half, has been able to do much damage (to "Da Da") with this striking style since she was three.


 
Yes, the up and down motion is good for offense and defense in my opinion.  Actually I think it is one of the easier moves to pull off if you use it at the right moment.  However, that is always the big if! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Just think of it as bringing your stick/blade up and then down from point A to point B.  This can be done in a quick one two motion or with multiple attempts for as long as you want. (of course as the situation dictates)

B




A

If no one has any videos then I will try and get some pictures up here soon.


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## Guro Harold (Oct 10, 2006)

I think Datu Tim has a clip of himself doing disarm followups with the "Up and Down!"


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## Rocky (Oct 10, 2006)

Up and down attack/defence was developed to fight the Doce' Pares' type of fighters, Remy had watched them training on the beach and was trying to figure out a way to close in on them.

 Up an down should be a very basic sparring technique tought in yellow to oraange belt area ( if you use belts ) it is much more largo and effective then rompida, as it alows you to side off of your opponent instead of squaring up. This technique gives a lot of my Pikiti friends trouble. Of course if you fight with all that protective stuff on or padded sticks it is pretty useless.


Rocky


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 10, 2006)

Yes, I teach it.

Yes, I use it.


I like it and think that it is ignored by many until the begin to live spar then they find it themselves or remember it.


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## Guro Harold (Oct 10, 2006)

Remembering GM Presas...

The Up and Down striking style was one of the things that inspired "the flow."


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 10, 2006)

Rocky said:


> Up and down attack/defence was developed to fight the Doce' Pares' type of fighters, Remy had watched them training on the beach and was trying to figure out a way to close in on them.
> 
> Up an down should be a very basic sparring technique tought in yellow to oraange belt area ( if you use belts ) it is much more largo and effective then rompida, as it alows you to side off of your opponent instead of squaring up. This technique gives a lot of my Pikiti friends trouble. Of course if you fight with all that protective stuff on or padded sticks it is pretty useless.
> 
> ...


 
Rocky,

That is a pretty good point about all of the pads making it negligably effective.  However on real skin and bone it works very nice!


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## Guro Harold (Oct 10, 2006)

Rocky said:


> Up and down attack/defence was developed to fight the Doce' Pares' type of fighters, Remy had watched them training on the beach and was trying to figure out a way to close in on them.
> 
> Up an down should be a very basic sparring technique tought in yellow to oraange belt area ( if you use belts ) it is much more largo and effective then rompida, as it alows you to side off of your opponent instead of squaring up. This technique gives a lot of my Pikiti friends trouble. Of course if you fight with all that protective stuff on or padded sticks it is pretty useless.
> 
> Rocky


Yeah, GM Presas loved telling that story. Thanks for that info Rocky.

Also, "Up and Down" is definitely a basic striking style. It's amazing seeing my daughter naturally flank my stick and guard to hit "Daddy".


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 11, 2006)

Palusut said:


> Yeah, GM Presas loved telling that story. Thanks for that info Rocky.
> 
> Also, "Up and Down" is definitely a basic striking style. It's amazing seeing my daughter naturally flank my stick and guard to hit "Daddy".


 
*Basic* but *effective*.  This particular striking motion always catches someone who is new to IRT off guard when one of the older more seasoned practitioners uses it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Also to Rocky, thanks for the story it is always good to hear it again.


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## arnisandyz (Oct 13, 2006)

I use it. When I get students that start swinging wildly while sparring I'll yell out "up and down" to get them back to center. It works well at maintaining centerline and against horizontal and angled strikes. Sometimes I'll do just Rompida the whole match and see who can figure it out and beat it. Its very simple and effective.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 22, 2006)

arnisandyz said:


> I use it. When I get students that start swinging wildly while sparring I'll yell out "up and down" to get them back to center. It works well at maintaining centerline and against horizontal and angled strikes. Sometimes I'll do just Rompida the whole match and see who can figure it out and beat it. Its very simple and effective.


 
Nice touch yelling out and getting them to focus on this particular technique.


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## arnisador (Oct 22, 2006)

At Kelly Worden's seminar Friday night in Bedford, IN, he talked about rompida and compared it to banda y banda and ocho-ocho. He distinguished it from up-and-down but mostly focused on rompida.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 22, 2006)

Definately Rompida and the Up and Down of MA are differant. (yet follow the same line)  I personally refer to them both as Up and down but with two categories:

Up and Down or in IRT #s 18 & 19

1.  Blade Forward = Rompida (blade forward refers to the blade being in the forward position during the entire movement. ie: turning it over to the attacking point)
2.  Stiff Armed = Up and Down

That is just how I categorize them.

By the way how was Kelly Wordens seminar?  I imagine it was great?  Did the Northern Michigan guys make it? (Nate, Bill and Matt)  Do you have any cool pictures to share?


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## arnisador (Oct 22, 2006)

I wrote about it here. I only attended one of five sessions, regrettably, but had a good time and felt it was time well spent despite the 2+ hour drive!

Yes, I actually worked with Matt (don't know his last name) and Dan McConnell (*Mao*) for the entire night! I don't recall meeting a bill?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 23, 2006)

Thanks for the write up on the seminar Arnisador!


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## oosh (Oct 23, 2006)

This type movement is also found in Ilustrisimo, many of the attacks may come from below through missing or enganyo. The upward motion may be in the form of a hooking parry/slash/thrust or if the edge is turned upwards it is a media fraile.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 23, 2006)

Oosh gald to have you here at MartialTalk and especially on this thread.  I notice that you do JKD and I am assuming that you study Ilustrisimo Kali as well?

That upward motion is quite often a nice little move that catches them after you miss with the downward motion.


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## oosh (Oct 23, 2006)

Hey Brian, no idea where the JKD thing on my profile comes from lol ! Yeh I study Zu'Bu Kali Ilustrisimo (but I'm just a neophyte  ) over here in the UK with PG Peter Lewis. I really like the hooking upward motions aswell as fraile, works well with enganyo, I can attest to this as Peter picks me off at will :lol:

Not sure if you seen this webbys before:

http://www.yuli-romo.com/


http://www.zubu-kali.co.uk/


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 23, 2006)

I have seen those website before.  I have also had the chance to watch some movement by GM Yuli Romo and was very impressed.  You should have a great time studying with one of his students.


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## lhommedieu (Oct 23, 2006)

Palusut said:


> When you examine the diagram for the major striking styles, the Up and Down striking pattern intersects most of them. It is designed to protect and attack the centerline.
> 
> My daughter, who will be 4 years old in a week in a half, has been able to do much damage (to "Da Da") with this striking style since she was three.


 
My 6 year old learned quite early on that the upward strike to the groin is particularly effective...

Agreed - it's a fundamental pattern because it protects and attacks the centerline.  In other styles there are variations on this up/down theme applied to umbrellas wherein the "up: movement is done by the hand while the stick remains slightly angled out to intercept the opponent's strike.  E.g., I've seen a lot of sparring matches wherein one person responds to a downward strike by lifting the stick into a sort of backhand umbrella/hanging guard (up).  As the opponent's stick starts to slide off he will covert the parry into a vertical flywheel by snapping the elbow down and rotating the wrist (down).  This can be done on the forehand side as well althought the mechanics of the second strike are different.

And given that the "up down" movement can protect the centerline, the same is true of any "down up" movement as well.  Sometimes this kind of movement is not quite vertical but on a near-vertical angle.  The following example shows how in this style the centerline remains protected against horizontal strikes (in the first of the three techniques shown, from 00:00 to 00:15):





 
In San Miguel Eskrima the "Banda" movement is done from a downward backhand diagonal to an upward forehand diagonal movement back along the same line.  "Diagonal" is however a relative term:  it's almost vertical in practice.  "Banda" (bounce) refers in his system to the elastic quailty of a rubber _band_; the upward strike is supposed to seem (and often does) _bounce_ off the ground  (or look like it is pulled quickly off the ground by the elasticity of the the first strike).  

It's also apparent that any "up down" movement can become an "up down up" movement, which means that a "down up" movement can become "down up down" etc.

O.K. ...definitely too much coffee..

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 23, 2006)

Hey Steve,

Thanks for the video clip!


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## robertlk808 (Nov 13, 2006)

I attended a tournament (Del Mar Annual Tournament) yesterday in which a player from the Leo Giron Bhala Na system (I believe) used the "up and down" strike rather effectively during his matches.  I dont recall what he placed but I did enjoy many of the fights yesterday.


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## avm247 (Feb 23, 2007)

Sorry for reviving an old thread but wanted add my two cents. 

Up and Down strikes, "Vertical and Radical" in Estalilla Bansuelo Kabaroan is something that we practice and use often.  I have found that this works very well with a longer, heavier stick (Sencilla) and/or in conjunction with a bankaw (Compuesta).


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 23, 2007)

avm247 said:


> Sorry for reviving an old thread but wanted add my two cents.
> 
> Up and Down strikes, "Vertical and Radical" in Estalilla Bansuelo Kabaroan is something that we practice and use often. I have found that this works very well with a longer, heavier stick (Sencilla) and/or in conjunction with a bankaw (Compuesta).


 
Nice post Anthony and thank you for sharing it.  I have found the same as well.


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