# Killing Techniques of WC



## Yoshiyahu (Feb 23, 2009)

What are some of Killing or Life ending techniques you learn from your Sifu or practicing Wing Chun. Are there any Kungs or Skills you develop to make your art more deadly.

Here is something interesting

http://fliiby.com/file/41561/hp1rhym298.html

Please share some lethal techniques you are aware of in the WC system?


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## mook jong man (Feb 24, 2009)

I'm not going to talk about lethal techniques of Wing Chun because I believe it would be irresponsible , anyway anyone with half a brain and experience in Wing Chun can work out what they are anyway . Suffice to say that a lot of targets on the body struck with enough velocity , in the right way and if the recipient is extremely unlucky can result in death . 

There are cases all the time of people being hit with one punch from even untrained people and they fall back and hit their head , go into a coma and die . I even read somewhere that a heel kick to the shin in extreme cases could result in death , the impact of the kick makes splinters of bone break away from the shin and get lodged in the blood vessels and this causes an arterial embolism .

 Granted you would have to be very unlucky to have this happen , but it is possible . Would it stop me from low heel kicking someone with all the power I can muster , no because then it might mean I don't have to punch them in the head , which I think would be a lot more dangerous for them if they fall back and crack their head on something . The low heel kick to the shin tends to make people drop straight down which is probably better for them . 

I don't think you should get into this mindset of killing techniques , I think you should have the mindset of stun and run . Do what is necessary but still humane , and get the hell out of the situation . I am poor so I can't afford a good lawyer to get me off , if I get a bit carried away .

 I will tell you a story about restraint , my Sifu when he first came to Australia was at a nightclub with a friend , and he was picked on by a particularly rascist white bouncer who took exception to asians . Words were exchanged and the bouncer came in with a charging straight punch , Sifu intercepted with a counterpunch and latched the guy down into a knee strike to the guys body which actually broke bones and pentrated into his body .

 Sifu said that the bouncer was very lucky because the next bit that was coming up was a Bil Gee elbow strike and side slash to the throat combination that would have killed him , but he stopped himself and the bouncer collapsed to the ground . Maybe the knee strike was viscious and put the bouncer in hospital for a while , but he could have done a lot worse to him , but he did what was needed and then didn't continue any further.


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## paulus (Feb 24, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> What are some of Killing or Life ending techniques you learn from your Sifu or practicing Wing Chun.


To be honest, I'm not interested in killing anybody, and I certainly wouldn't share tips on killing in a public forum.


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## Hagakure (Feb 24, 2009)

As has already been stated, there are quite a few moves that could be construed as killing moves. I think in order to justify using them, you have to be certain that your life is in mortal danger. I don't mean, some drunk in a pub, saying "you spilt my pint" and *BLAM!* he's chopped to certain parts of his anatomy. It's not always clear admittedly when you may be in mortal danger, but nip a situation in the bud early enough, and you may well de-escalate it.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 24, 2009)

For instance your at a ATM and someone when a gun or knife comes up to you?

Are your in your home and some methhead breaks in while you an your wife or sleeping and starts beating the heck out of your daughter and raping her only to move on to your room with you and your wife...an the two of you are next?

There is a gang member who is trying to hurt you or rape you?

These are some scenarios I look at!


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## bs10927 (Feb 24, 2009)

sounds like i should purchase a gun.


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## geezer (Feb 24, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> For instance...There is a gang member who is trying to hurt you or rape you?
> 
> These are some scenarios I look at!


 
Maybe you _should_ purchase a gun,,, and get therapy? LOL.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 24, 2009)

OK, WHY OH WHY Are you going here????

Yup, great idea... Let&#8217;s post killing techniques on the web for all to see..

The whole concept of a post on any style and its killing techniques is just wrong and plain Irresponsible. 

And a court case just waiting to happen for MT

The Accused: well I read about it on the web


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## Andrew Green (Feb 24, 2009)

hit the forehead with a single knuckle, dead center, slap the groin, hit the space between the 4th and 5th rib on the left side directly in line vertically with the nipple, then bop them on the head with a hammerfist.  double purple nurple then and bang, they drop dead... unless you tickle their left foot within 8 seconds of them collapsing to revive them, then they recover without harm so it is safe to practice, providing you  immediately revive them (LEFT foot, not right)

Give it a try and report back.


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## bs10927 (Feb 24, 2009)

geezer said:


> Maybe you _should_ purchase a gun,,, and get therapy? LOL.



therapy.  check!  lol

i may be forced to draw out the broad sword i keep under my pillow.


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## mook jong man (Feb 24, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> hit the forehead with a single knuckle, dead center, slap the groin, hit the space between the 4th and 5th rib on the left side directly in line vertically with the nipple, then bop them on the head with a hammerfist. double purple nurple then and bang, they drop dead... unless you tickle their left foot within 8 seconds of them collapsing to revive them, then they recover without harm so it is safe to practice, providing you immediately revive them (LEFT foot, not right)
> 
> Give it a try and report back.


 
You forgot the ATOMIC WEDGIE .


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## Sandstorm (Feb 24, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> There is a gang member who is trying to hurt you or rape you?
> 
> *These are some scenarios I look at*!


 
Yoshi, don't you have an XBox or something? There must be better things you can spend your time with other than looking at the bleakest of scenarios in which you feel you may have to kill someone using Wing Chun? I mean, come on man, get out of this fantasy land. Life is there to be enjoyed. Training and lerning your chosen art are to be enjoyed and passed down. Use your time productively.
Asking such a random question.........? Well, beggars belief really.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 24, 2009)

bs10927 said:


> i may be forced to draw out the broad sword i keep under my pillow.


 
Or the Kwan Dao:angel:


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## mook jong man (Feb 24, 2009)

Sandstorm said:


> Yoshi, don't you have an XBox or something?


 
That might be his problem , I reckon he's been playing those violent video games like the Grand Theft Auto series .


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## morph4me (Feb 24, 2009)

:trollsign


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## Sandstorm (Feb 24, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> That might be his problem , I reckon he's been playing those violent video games like the Grand Theft Auto series .


 
Good point.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 24, 2009)

Maybe you should go and talk with your instructor regarding this.  As you can see the level of maturity on this board is very high and *no one* wants to indulge you.


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## Kreth (Feb 24, 2009)

L1, then X O L2, unless he's the level boss, in which case I use R1 O O (triangle) (square).

Telling Bravo Team to "attack to Delta" while you scope in for the headshot works great too...


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## bs10927 (Feb 24, 2009)

Sandstorm said:


> Yoshi, don't you have an XBox or something? There must be better things you can spend your time with other than looking at the bleakest of scenarios in which you feel you may have to kill someone using Wing Chun? I mean, come on man, get out of this fantasy land. Life is there to be enjoyed. Training and lerning your chosen art are to be enjoyed and passed down. Use your time productively.
> Asking such a random question.........? Well, beggars belief really.



you mean, i should stop thinking of these things when i'm training on top of a mountain? lol


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Feb 24, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> What are some of Killing or Life ending techniques you learn from your Sifu or practicing Wing Chun. Are there any Kungs or Skills you develop to make your art more deadly.
> 
> Here is something interesting
> 
> ...


Looking for stuff you can use while you're out beating up gay people?


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## bs10927 (Feb 24, 2009)

Sandstorm said:


> Or the Kwan Dao:angel:



lol. under the pillow?  i also have weapons in my bathroom.  my toothbrush is actually a 3 sectional staff.:lol:


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 24, 2009)

Yoshi, sorry if I have judged you wrongly but reading your last hundred or so posts I have come to realise that people like you, with that kind of mindset, are one of the reasons why I train in martial arts. Geezers advice on terapy is something I want you to consider. As I said on another thread, hypotheticaly speaking there are situtations where there is no way out than using maiming/killing methods but to have a mindset that you will kill anyone who attacks you crys out for terapy. And thats the mindset, I got the impression (from other threads too) you have.

In the past year there have been 2 cases where people were beaten to death with fists, here where I live. And I live in a town of 300,000. But chances are that 80% percent of people on this forum will never in there life have to use leathel technique to get out of the situation alive/unmaimed. Sure this varies from where you live and in what kind of circles of people you hang out but at least where I live I can say that is true.

I would like to ask you again(as you didn't answer me on another thread), in how many real street fights have you been to see life so grimly? How can you say you would have no remorse in killing a person? I know people who were in war and had nightmares about killing people even 50 years later! I would also like to ask you if murder, raping, maiming and gunpoint robbery hapen a lot where you live? If they do, and you have a wife and doughter as you say in your examples, I would strongly advise that you move to a safer place! Forget techniques. Even the best ones won't neceserely help you in those kind of situations.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 24, 2009)

bs10927 said:


> lol. under the pillow?


 
It's a big pillow, I guess:wink2:



bs10927 said:


> i also have weapons in my bathroom. my toothbrush is actually a 3 sectional staff.:lol:


Cool!! I wish I could have an array of James Bond type weapons. The closest I have is a neckerchief that turns into a parachute, so I can jump from high buildings when being chased by gangsters


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## Hagakure (Feb 24, 2009)

Kreth said:


> L1, then X O L2, unless he's the level boss, in which case I use R1 O O (triangle) (square).
> 
> Telling Bravo Team to "attack to Delta" while you scope in for the headshot works great too...



Works for me man.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 24, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> http://fliiby.com/file/41561/hp1rhym298.html


 
I only browsed over this document. What is the connection between your question and the document exactly? Just curious is all


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 24, 2009)

I personally did not see much mention about killing techniques of Wingchun in the article.

If you really want to know how to kill someone learn anatomy and how to heal yourself and others. By the time it takes to learn this you will have forgotten the will to learn killing techniques.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 24, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I personally did not see much mention about killing techniques of Wingchun in the article.
> 
> *If you really want to know how to kill someone learn anatomy and how to heal yourself and others. By the time it takes to learn this you will have forgotten the will to learn killing techniques*.


 
Amen to that


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## theletch1 (Feb 24, 2009)

bs10927 said:


> lol. under the pillow? i also have weapons in my bathroom. my toothbrush is actually a 3 sectional staff.:lol:


 Come into my bathroom after a good curry and you'll be subjected to a weapon of mass destruction.


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## Seeker (Feb 24, 2009)

What about techinques that uplifts people's spirits, touches their soul and helps them to see and feel love and the wonders of life?


:uhyeah:


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## bs10927 (Feb 24, 2009)

theletch1 said:


> Come into my bathroom after a good curry and you'll be subjected to a weapon of mass destruction.



lol. that against the kwan dao!

when i'm being attacked with such ferocity when someone breaks in the house, i like to turn on the lights and review SLT very slowly in front of him.  so as to intimidate the attacker with form.:ninja:


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## Sandstorm (Feb 24, 2009)

Seeker said:


> What about techinques that uplifts people's spirits, touches their soul and helps them to see and feel love and the wonders of life?
> 
> 
> :uhyeah:


 
I think that's called 'Pot'. :ultracool


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## seasoned (Feb 24, 2009)

Sandstorm said:


> I think that's called 'Pot'. :ultracool


After going there all you want to kill is a big whopper and large fries. :rofl:


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 24, 2009)

lol


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## Sandstorm (Feb 24, 2009)

seasoned said:


> After going there all you want to kill is a big whopper and large fries.


 :rofl:

truehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_wJ...1A74584B8&index=1&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL


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## Andrew Green (Feb 24, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> As you can see the level of maturity on this board is very high




Wait... What?

Did you read the thread?

Any thread that contains the words "purple nurple", "atomic wedgie" and has references to the destructive power that curry holds over bathroom wallpaper is really not the thread to use as proof of the forums maturity...


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## bs10927 (Feb 24, 2009)

talk about relaxed chi sao!


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 24, 2009)

Okay *excellent questions. An I took your comments as mere concerns. Although I may have misintrepret them. You could be actually using satire But in either case thankyou for your concern. As a kid before I actually started learning WC. I went to school were everyday there was someone trying to fight. In sixth grade people always tried to fight you. In seventh and eight grade. I got jumped into I joined a click of fighters. Then we do the jumping. But sometimes I would get jumped by ten to twenty people when I was alone in like a Gym class with none of my clique. I started learning WC. In high school then I learn various killing techniques from my sifu along with more humane techniques. No I have not went out murdering or doing evil things with the WC. There were times. Where I advoided fights. But just punking out An walking away. There were times where I was surrounded an couldn't run an use my WC. Usually I didn't hurt the people but made them know they couldn't hurt me. I am cool cumcumber. I usually never lose my cool even when fighting. Like for instance in high school I had a rather small clique there were only about five or seven of us at any given time that hung out. Really there were only four of us that fought people together. Two of us did WC and one did muay thai and one lifted weights and wrestled One time we three of us got jumped my this clique of seven guys. The most anyone got hurt was a hard side kick to the abdomen. But nothing was broken on the guy who attacked us. Another time those same guys tried to get me when I was alone. They tried to have this big guy fight me. He tried to punch at first. I simply pak sau and tan sau all his attacks. An grabbed one his hands to trap him. An then smacked him in the face. I also was a little silly. Since he couldn't hurt me I started nugging him...He tried to run away. Eventually he tried to pick me up. I guess he was going to slam me. So I wrapped my arms around his neck and locked on. So if he did slam I would pull on the muscles and nerves in neck while we went down. He just sat down lightly so i would let his neck go. The fight was over.*


*I personally don't like fighting. But its curious to me. WC was created for war. It was created to kill the Manchu's So why do people feel the need to dumb it down. Like for instance. Lets say you went to fight in a war. Maybe China took over America an you wanted to defend the new chinese government over. So you enlist in their army. Wouldn't killing techniques be useful. Before when I was younger I was really concern with that sorta stuff. But now since over the last ten years I have been studing and practicing many upper level stuff. Just so I can have it in my aresnal. I don't want some of WC I want it all.*


*As for killing someone with your fist. I don't advocate people going on a killing spree. or killing for sport and fun or just because you can. It true you could go to jail if you kill someone. But there are somethings worth killing and dying for. So why not train everything. How to stun,how to break bones,how to knock out,how to kill. Why only train A,B,C and D and leave out E?*


*No, Where I live at we don't have too many problems. Crime is every where. But if someone breaks in to my home I would just shoot him or stab him. I wouldn't use WC killing techniques.*

*We have no daughter yet.*


*But I train WC to be able to defend myself. I want to be ready for ever possible scenario. Not just some. I think developing certain aspects of WC is a benefit. *

*You dont have to use the techniques to break bones and kill?*


*But atleast having them and knowing them helps.*




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1129464 said:
			
		

> Yoshi, sorry if I have judged you wrongly but reading your last hundred or so posts I have come to realise that people like you, with that kind of mindset, are one of the reasons why I train in martial arts. Geezers advice on terapy is something I want you to consider. As I said on another thread, hypotheticaly speaking there are situtations where there is no way out than using maiming/killing methods but to have a mindset that you will kill anyone who attacks you crys out for terapy. And thats the mindset, I got the impression (from other threads too) you have.
> 
> In the past year there have been 2 cases where people were beaten to death with fists, here where I live. And I live in a town of 300,000. But chances are that 80% percent of people on this forum will never in there life have to use leathel technique to get out of the situation alive/unmaimed. Sure this varies from where you live and in what kind of circles of people you hang out but at least where I live I can say that is true.
> 
> I would like to ask you again(as you didn't answer me on another thread), in how many real street fights have you been to see life so grimly? How can you say you would have no remorse in killing a person? I know people who were in war and had nightmares about killing people even 50 years later! I would also like to ask you if murder, raping, maiming and gunpoint robbery hapen a lot where you live? If they do, and you have a wife and doughter as you say in your examples, I would strongly advise that you move to a safer place! Forget techniques. Even the best ones won't neceserely help you in those kind of situations.


 


Sandstorm said:


> I only browsed over this document. What is the connection between your question and the document exactly? Just curious is all


 

*The Document has not to much to do with the Title"killing techniques of WC."*

*But I thought it was interesting. if you go down it talks a little about the Ming Rebels going to Shaolin to train and prepare for war against the manchus. The Shaolin Grandmaster devised WC because it took shorter time to learn and be of fighting power sooner.*
* It also tells you Short swords were used because they could hidden easier. So WC was devised for revolutionary force of Mings to destroy the Manchus!*






JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I personally did not see much mention about killing techniques of Wingchun in the article.
> 
> If you really want to know how to kill someone learn anatomy and how to heal yourself and others. By the time it takes to learn this you will have forgotten the will to learn killing techniques.


 
*Thankyou so true. Knowing about the meridans and various pressure points and acupressure points can all be adapted to fight with. I find the best places to attack are the center line points. Of course too much power of certain points can kill like inbetween the eyes with a conditioned phoenix fist! Hitting the throat with enough power with a **conditioned phoenix fist or ginger fist! Chopping the throat hard enough with a gan sau. Hitting the side of the temples hard enough with a conditioned ridge hand. Someone able to Hit a home made heavy bag weighing 300lbs or more could do serious damage to organs in the body. Hitting certain points on the back of head hard enough with a conditioned Palm or Fist could kill. *

*But you are right. I don't think if you desire to learn every aspect that learning the various points on healing would get rid of your desire to learn how to kill with your art if you have too.*




Hagakure said:


> As has already been stated, there are quite a few moves that could be construed as killing moves. I think in order to justify using them, you have to be certain that your life is in mortal danger. I don't mean, some drunk in a pub, saying "you spilt my pint" and *BLAM!* he's chopped to certain parts of his anatomy. It's not always clear admittedly when you may be in mortal danger, but nip a situation in the bud early enough, and you may well de-escalate it.


 

*Yes I agree one needs to know when he is in mortal danger. I think the case would be when your assailant has a gun or knife and they are Chi Sau range. If they haven't struck or shot you already then you have time to take them out using lethal force if possible. Or if your in war and have to use hand to hand combat. Then it could be useful. Maybe your black guy defending your family from a KKK...I know thats way out their on a limb. Lol. But I don't think you should study WC to beat people up. Nor should you learn the Breaking and Maiming techniques to go out maime random people. Nor should you learn how to kill with your bare hands from the Marines, Army or Sifu so you can go on a killing spree or just kill anybody who tries to fight with you because they are arrogant. *

*I am not saying that at all. People make out to be some monster who goes out challenging people to the death. Thats not my bag at all. *







mook jong man said:


> I'm not going to talk about lethal techniques of Wing Chun because I believe it would be irresponsible , anyway anyone with half a brain and experience in Wing Chun can work out what they are anyway . Suffice to say that a lot of targets on the body struck with enough velocity , in the right way and if the recipient is extremely unlucky can result in death .


 

*You are correct mook jong man. There are many pressure points on the body one can use to kill with. You can even use techniques from Chin Na to claw the face or rip the throat. But thats only if you condition your Hands and fingers with steel shots and raking your finger tips on trees. But my reason for starting this post was this?*


*1.What are you guys views on Killing Techniques?* _(Many You clearly hate the idea all together.)_


*2.Does your Kwoon teach them or hide them from you?*_ (Alot of you guys I think may have never learn them.)_


*3.Are you interested in training to have killing power with your palm strikes and fist strikes?*_ (You guys seem not to care about that part of WC or find it useless.)_



In conclusion I think this thread is winner. Because although mostly all of you are critizing me,making slants at my charater,giving me a bad reputation, think I am sick in the head and clearly don't like me. It shows me no matter how controversial my post may be it has acquired three pages in one days time. Not even a full 24 hours. Were other simple basic threads are still maybe on one page. So No matter how repulsive or repungnant Killing Techniques in WC may be to you. It has alot of you commenting, reading, thinking and straight up participatining in thread you hate so much. Very interesting. 

I think studing the Center line pressure points and various pressure on body along with training your palms,fingers,fist and toes to break hard objects would give you the conditioning needed for killing along with hitting a extremely heavy bag and wall bag training with steel shots,iron palm bag with steel shots along with bucket of steel shots you strike and grasp the shots squeezing hard. I think a combination of one or two of these things would give you what you need to be more of deadly WC practioner. But this is my opinion. Clearly many of you will disagree and think its utterly useless and waste of time. You rather spend your time going over SLT or practicing your Root instead of doing both!


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## skinters (Feb 24, 2009)

good on you yosh,

you might have found a better way to start the thread imo, but you stuck to your guns and fought back. good martial art spirit .

you might be a bit unorthadox in your questions and the way you put em,but you got BIG BALLS,to come back with all that.

salute.


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## Nolerama (Feb 24, 2009)

I think the majority of people replying to this thread agree to the assumption that there are "killing moves" but wouldn't rather talk about it because sometimes, there's just no "special move" to kill someone. Yes, there are techniques out there that can cause immediate pain, and eventual maiming, but there's a thing called control.

In training, you know when you're at the point you can hurt your partner. If it came down to it, and you had to kill to defend, you could take that pressure up another notch.

In your words, Yosh, you learn A, B, C... but D.... you know where that is. There's no reason to discuss the myriad of ways to kill another human being. The majority of my training isn't to kill, but to make myself better. Killing doesn't have to be involved, or overshadow training.

That would be a bummer and totally delineate my original purpose to train and put me in a bad place in my own mind...

As to your high school experiences, please elaborate on what kind of school lets you run around in clicks of 'fighters' where you would tangle with 20 other kids. Saying there's no way out so you could use your MA training says that there's a lot of other stuff you would need to work on, like social graces, word-jitsu, and anger management.

There could be another World War. Considering history and human nature, some might think it's only a matter of time. But unlike those fought in the past, the majority of those battles will be fought with bullets and bombs, not fists and feet.

Sorry, pressing your concepts on "killing someone" means you don't "get" your own art. At least not in the way that it's meant to be taught. Does your instructor condone such thinking? I'm getting, from your previous posts, that you take a lot of stock in the opinion of your instructor (s?)... maybe to a fault? Maybe too literal?

Take a look around in other MA studios/schools. Yes, there are folks out there who prepare for the worst-case scenario in order to defend those they love. It's grim, to be sure. But among that community, you'll find an over-abundance of personalities who savor, enjoy, love, and cherish human life... and train to understand that sort of defense has consequences, whether it be legal, moral, or spiritual.

What I'm saying is that merely posting this thread denotes certain faults within your own person that might need more attention than learning/contemplating "killing techniques." Considering the community at hand, I would trust their judgement. There's like, what, eleventy billion years of MA and LIFE experience in this forum?

Besides, I don't believe in Teh Death Touch...



I believe in the Konami Code:
_
Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A_


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 24, 2009)

Yoshiyahu

I have a Sanda sifu and the version of Sanda I trained was Police/Military it is most certainly made to be incredibly nasty to those you fight and if we are talking Military it certainly is not points sparing. However my sifu never talks of killing he has said only that he will not teach anyone that he does not know or trust because he never wants to be responsible for someone going out and using Sanda to hurt others. He has said Sanda is not the best marital art or the worst it is just a way to quickly learn how to hurt someone very badly. He also takes it incredibly seriously and if he read some of my past posts on Sanda and knew it was me he might stop teaching me since it is not something he ever tells anyone he does not know and trust anything about Sanda nor does he even mention it at all this is part of why I no longer post much on it any longer, out of respect for my sifu and my friend. I am also rather certain that if I was ever to go ask him about killing techniques he would stop teaching me all together. 

As my first sensei instilled in me; Fighting is a very serious thing and you should not take it lightly. But if you fight and survive the fight you have to understand you will have to live with the consequences of that fight so best thing, if at all possible, is to run away. And I can tell you I did not remember what he said one time in my youth and I regret the outcome to this day

Asking about killing techniques to me shows a rather large disrespect for martial arts and people like the teachers I have been lucky enough to train with over the many years I have been at this. I do not believe you intended to any of that but this is how I take it.

It is not something discussed openly with people you do not know and trust.

As to dumbing thing down, I have trained Taiji for many years and there are a lot of people that do taiji that have no idea it is a martial art...they just know the dance.


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## Nolerama (Feb 24, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> *1.What are you guys views on Killing Techniques?* _(Many You clearly hate the idea all together.)_



I would think it goes along with training and athleticism. I don't think there's any special "killing move" just levels of intensity and points of opportunity.




Yoshiyahu said:


> *2.Does your Kwoon teach them or hide them from you?*_ (Alot of you guys I think may have never learn them.)_



Santa, The Boogeyman, The Easter Bunny. See above.

"Hiding" technique? "Never learning" a "killing" technique? Unless you're a serial killer, you'll never find out whether or not you will be 100% kill someone with that technique. It's just someone saying it's deadly.



Yoshiyahu said:


> *3.Are you interested in training to have killing power with your palm strikes and fist strikes?*_ (You guys seem not to care about that part of WC or find it useless.)_



Again, striking with the possibility to maim/kill comes with practice, conditioning, and athleticism. Why specifically go for that? The human body is a resilient thing. We're not super heroes, or super villains.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 24, 2009)

*Well great points. I am not saying learning WC or any art just for specifically to learn to kill...But WC was created for killing and maiming. And Martial Arts means War form. So why is it such a taboo subject. Why is learning to fight, maim and maybe kill a bad thing. Its not like a gun. I don't care how much WC you know or what death techniques you know...If I am far enough out your kicking range. My Gun will beat your WC hands down anyway.*

*But I am speaking of the times you can get to your gun.*

*I mean with weapons there are many ways to kill. So you really only need a knife dipped in dog poop to kill someone. Or if you wanna fire bomb someone in their car alls you need is to dissovle some styro foam in gasoline. Or some household detergent and gasoline to make napalm.*

*Everyone knows about the karate technique of pushing the nose bone into the brain.  Shoot if you have metal house hold thing like a letter opener...You can kill. Just jab the juglar.*

*Are reach your hands behind the mandabal an try to rip it off.*

*But you guys seem to think I always think on how to lurk and attack people. I don't I simply feel that people over mystify the deadly techniques. Why do you need to use those techniques to kill. I can go to walmart and buy some butcher knives or a shot gun from the pawnshop. *

*I feel people make the lethal techniques too mysitical and dangerous. compared to gun or grenade its not. In fact it gives you an advantage. Why hold it back. If someone is going to be evil and rape and kill its easier to do that with Tech-9 or a 380.*

*I don't always focus on it. But I wonder why many people make it seem so mystical and taboo?*



Nolerama said:


> I would think it goes along with training and athleticism. I don't think there's any special "killing move" just levels of intensity and points of opportunity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


*I understand how you feel Xue. Martial Arts is a war art. How is learning how to eradicate a possible serial killer or murderer of your life or love ones disrespect? I just don't understand why you guys feel that way? I don't live in fear or in dread everyday. I just think outside the box. My Sihing said that alot of Sifu's now and days hide information because they feel too much info to Gwalo will make them worst adversaries.*

*My Sifu also hated the idea that many people watered down their arts for profits. My Sifu never condones killing innocent people or hurting people. He never says to be a tyrant or menace. He always advocated humility and kindness. But he also shared that fighting is not a game. An when he demostrated killing techniques he would always say this is only in life threathen situtations. If use this on the public your going to jail. He always say this move is to kill with but don't use it. He always demanded restraint and feared rasining killers. I have never killed anyone...so in 15 years of training I guess He did pretty good.*




Xue Sheng said:


> Yoshiyahu
> 
> I have a Sanda sifu and the version of Sanda I trained was Police/Military it is most certainly made to be incredibly nasty to those you fight and if we are talking Military it certainly is not points sparing. However my sifu never talks of killing he has said only that he will not teach anyone that he does not know or trust because he never wants to be responsible for someone going out and using Sanda to hurt others. He has said Sanda is not the best marital art or the worst it is just a way to quickly learn how to hurt someone very badly. He also takes it incredibly seriously and if he read some of my past posts on Sanda and knew it was me he might stop teaching me since it is not something he ever tells anyone he does not know and trust anything about Sanda nor does he even mention it at all this is part of why I no longer post much on it any longer, out of respect for my sifu and my friend. I am also rather certain that if I was ever to go ask him about killing techniques he would stop teaching me all together.
> 
> ...


 


*I don't believe in magical touch or some mystical non touching chi hit. I just don't see things you guys are saying. I don't see studing both non-lethal and lethal techniques an grim or glum. Why do you feel its such a negative thing. We train to punch and kick and block so when times come you will be able to use it correctly?*

*A sword must be sharpen and used otherwise you may not kill your enemy.*

*A gun must be practice with and cleaned otherwise you may not hit your target.*

*Why is the killing techniques not being taught or virtually practiced.*


*My instructor teaches some killing techniques others he allows you to discover on your own through training. But he always says do not be a tyrant and do not hurt people for not reason. He always advocates caution and restraint. *

*AS for HS...well it was county school with alot rowdy kids. But my Junior high was worse. Our small click in HS was against some Crips. But they were still not totally that bad. In fact many of them we fought became my friends later. They had alot respect for us because one time two of us was able to stop 20 of them from hurting us outside where there was no adult supervision.*

*Most of the time these things would happen when there was no adult supervision.*

*But as for the community. The Majority is not always right...look at mob rules. Anyway sometimes even with war you have scenarios where you have to fight with your hands do you agree????*




Nolerama said:


> I think the majority of people replying to this thread agree to the assumption that there are "killing moves" but wouldn't rather talk about it because sometimes, there's just no "special move" to kill someone. Yes, there are techniques out there that can cause immediate pain, and eventual maiming, but there's a thing called control.
> 
> In training, you know when you're at the point you can hurt your partner. If it came down to it, and you had to kill to defend, you could take that pressure up another notch.
> 
> ...


 
*Thankyou for salute...I know I am odd ball.*



skinters said:


> good on you yosh,
> 
> you might have found a better way to start the thread imo, but you stuck to your guns and fought back. good martial art spirit .
> 
> ...


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## mook jong man (Feb 24, 2009)

In the eyes of the law you have to show restraint and only do what is absolutely necessary to defend yourself .

 Otherwise you will end up in the big house defending not only your centerline but your bootay as well .


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 24, 2009)

Yea, but if your defending your life or your love ones life...its a definite sacrifice to make...

Here are *Six Martial Arts* that are great for killing with your bare hands

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11505632/6-Great-Martial-Arts-for-Killing-a-Man-With-Your-Bare-Hands


Plus atleast you can use those death techniques in big house too to stop from being rape!


Here is good site that shows some deadly Techniques of Karate that can be used in Wing Chun as well. May note to hand strikes and low kicks.

The three Main killing points are the 

1.Adams apple/throat

2.Back of the Head/neck

3.The Heart


 Conclusion:



> Scott
> 09-10-2000, 05:42 PM
> VingTsunStudent, those 'really fast holds' you were talking about are called "trapping," something Wing Chun is reknowned for as a martial art.
> 
> ...


 
Heres the link:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-3709.html





mook jong man said:


> In the eyes of the law you have to show restraint and only do what is absolutely necessary to defend yourself .
> 
> Otherwise you will end up in the big house defending not only your centerline but your bootay as well .


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## mook jong man (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Plus atleast you can use those death techniques in big house too to stop from being rape!


 
I would just rather not go to the big house at all , I would be a target straight away as I am cursed with being rather pretty .

Anyway its not as if one bloke is going to come to your cell and say " Excuse me Mr Yoshiyahu old chap , umm I was wondering if it would be at all possible for us to have sex tonight ? " . 

I've watched enough prison movies to know that its probably going be a whole gang of people that attack you , you can't fight them all , you might be good but your not that good. 

P.S If you drop the soap in the shower just leave it there .


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Well practice arm and leg breaks against multiple attackers while striking the throats and back of the head with force. Atleast that way you won't have to many attackers who able to mount you with a broken limbs.





mook jong man said:


> I would just rather not go to the big house at all , I would be a target straight away as I am cursed with being rather pretty .
> 
> Anyway its not as if one bloke is going to come to your cell and say " Excuse me Mr Yoshiyahu old chap , umm I was wondering if it would be at all possible for us to have sex tonight ? " .
> 
> ...


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well practice arm and leg breaks against multiple attackers while striking the throats and back of the head with force. Atleast that way you won't have to many attackers who able to mount you with a broken limbs.


You do have this ongoing fear of being mounted it seems. Bad experiences in lock up I would imagine.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Nah. I would just phoenix punch a bloke in his throat continously if he tried to mount me. An squeeze his groin and rip them forward. I would try to crush his man piece and rip it out if I could. When falls to his knees counter step behind him an twist his neck backwards until I hear a snap!

Then when he lays lifeless on the floor I would pretend like his chest is a stack of breaks to be broken with palm strike. That way I can make sure the **** doesn't come back for a seconds try.


Ha Ha just trying to get back on topic.


Thats just speaking hypothetically of course. 





Edmund BlackAdder said:


> You do have this ongoing fear of being mounted it seems. Bad experiences in lock up I would imagine.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshi, I must admit I'm starting to feel a bit stupid, as I seem to have enough "respect" for you to read you entire posts but you just seem to read every third word I write.

Please read again what I wrote to you befor on another thread:
You missed my point, Yoshi. The point was that I hope you don't maim/kill somebody, who got into a fight with you, for no real reason. That person could have their whole life ahead of him and maybe just had a bad day and ended up in a fight with you. To put it into a WC context: one of the major points of WC, I feel, is reacting to the problem/attack with the appropriate force/just the force that is needed to handle the problem at hand while doing it in a very straightforward way. Anything else would be an unnecesery waste of energy. That is also very true to the philosophy of Buddhisem on which WC is strongly based on. To take this point a bit further; *there is a time and place for deadly force but WC is not about killing/maiming even tho it has killing/maiming techniques*. Think about it.

If you read this in the first place you should have seen that I didn't say WC doesn't have killing/maiming techniques. All I said was that WC is all about reacting with the most suitible response. You don't do a Tan where a Bong is due neither vice versa.

I _usualy_ don't respond to posts I don't agree with just to make them understand my opinion, as we are all entitled to are own opinion. But some posts that you make, I realy have to respond to. For example a quote of you from another thread:


> If your out an about talking trash I will ignore you. If you throw things an curse me I will walk away. If you come over to me an get my face talking I still walk away. If you touch me or put your hands on me An i fear you can really hurt me I am going to try my best to kill you with WC.Rock on a ground.Knife.Stick or pen in the eye. Anything laying around.


 
I have read the article you posted some years ago. Before I write any further I would like to point out that as it says in the begining of the article this is a thesis of a student of Rick Spain for a level10 grading. This is only this particular guys viewpoint not neceserely the truth as you take it. The "fact" that WC was created for killing is your opinion. By which *you* are acctualy dumbfying the art.

The funny thing is that when I first started training, I came to my instructur with this same article(and others) and asked him what he thinks about this plusible examples of WC history. He said something along the lines that WC is to smart and too complex to have been developed in a time of war by soldiers or by thiefs and assasins by uneducated people. I didn't think much of the answer. But now some yoears later I'm starting to see truth in that more and more. It's a thinking mans art(heard that before?). I find it's smarter and more complex with every day I train it. Also the connections between Buddhist philosophy and WC are so severe that it's not likely a coincidence. C'mon, they even put in 2 Sam Bai Fut sections in 2 forms! Sam Bai Fut meaning the three bows to Buddha! Each bow having it's meaning.

Again, just so you will understand. I'm not saying WC doesn't have killing techniques nor that it doesn't use them. I'm saying just that like Buddhism, WC is all about reacting to a problem with just a needed amount of force. If killing maiming is required you really don't have no choice do you? But to say you would kill everbody that attacks you or that it was created for killing and war shows a very very limited understanding.

As for your fight experience... Yoshi! I'm not talking about fights in high school or at Gym class. Neither you being in a gang and beating up people. The fact that you were jumped by 10-20 people and survived tells me two things: either you are the best fighter I have ever heard of, or we have totaly diffrent definitions of a fight. I take it you have never been in a fight on the street, where somebody you didn't know wanted to hurt you badly? I had "fights" in high school and elementary school to, but sparring sessions I do this days are more intense/dangerous than thos "fights".



> *An I took your comments as mere concerns. Although I may have misintrepret them. You could be actually using satire But in either case thankyou for your concern.*


 
The concern if there is any, is not for you. It's for a young guy whose life your going to take not becouse of any real reason but becouse of your mental issues. Hypotheticaly speaking.



> *1.What are you guys views on Killing Techniques?* _(Many You clearly hate the idea all together.)_
> 
> 
> *2.Does your Kwoon teach them or hide them from you?*_ (Alot of you guys I think may have never learn them.)_
> ...


 
1.The first question I have allready give you answers too if you read my post.

2.We were thought mostly finishing/lethal/maiming techniques. Doesn't mean I'll use them when a drunk guy will be pushing me arround.

3.I train Biu, sun fist and palm strikes for maximum power. If they are lethal or not is mostly dependent on the target area. You can kill relatvely easy even with a palm if you know how to strike.


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## skinters (Feb 25, 2009)

> The point was that I hope you don't maim/kill somebody, who got into a fight with you, for no real reason. That person could have their whole life ahead of him and maybe just had a bad day and ended up in a fight with you.



and what about the life of yosh? there might be a day when anyone has to fight for their life,and happens everyday.you say it in the way he wants to kill someone.



> one of the major points of WC, I feel, is reacting to the problem/attack with the appropriate force/just the force that is needed to handle the problem at hand while doing it in a very straightforward way.



this is your personal point of veiw, and has statisticly no real evidence,that this kind of calm measured almost mythical approach really works,and in the real world violence that is hard fast and decisive,going all in,usualy gets the job done.



> *there is a time and place for deadly force but WC is not about killing/maiming even tho it has killing/maiming techniques*. Think about it.



you can never pick the TIME or PLACE when to fight for your life.how absurd.how can it have killing techniques,and not be about it? 



> I _usualy_ don't respond to posts I don't agree with just to make them understand my opinion



yes you do.we all do



> The "fact" that WC was created for killing is your opinion. By which *you* are acctualy dumbfying the art.



you remark in absolutes,as in the absolute truth.and where is his right to opinion?



> The funny thing is that when I first started training, I came to my instructur with this same article(and others) and asked him what he thinks about this plusible examples of WC history. He said something along the lines that WC is to smart and too complex to have been developed in a time of war by soldiers or by thiefs and assasins by uneducated people.
> . I didn't think much of the answer. But now some yoears later I'm starting to see truth in that more and more.



may i suggest your first gut instinct was right.


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## skinters (Feb 25, 2009)

> It's a thinking mans art(heard that before?).



once to many.



> Also the connections between Buddhist philosophy and WC are so severe that it's not likely a coincidence. C'mon, they even put in 2 Sam Bai Fut sections in 2 forms! Sam Bai Fut meaning the three bows to Buddha! Each bow having it's meaning.



again,even further removed from reality,and boarders on the religous.



> As for your fight experience... Yoshi! I'm not talking about fights in high school or at Gym class. Neither you being in a gang and beating up people. The fact that you were jumped by 10-20 people and survived tells me two things: either you are the best fighter I have ever heard of, or we have totaly diffrent definitions of a fight. I take it you have never been in a fight on the street, where somebody you didn't know wanted to hurt you badly? I had "fights" in high school and elementary school to, but sparring sessions I do this days are more intense/dangerous than thos "fights".



i suggest you ARE talking about fights in highschool or gym class,as you refer it to your own experience.the fact he survived being jumped on,tells me he was extemely lucky,to get out in one peice. also your sparring sessions being harder than scraps at school is hardly difficult eh ? 

we have all had scraps and slaps while in school but thats all they were petty scraps.compare this with a 16 stone drunk man,smashing up the place and he wants some,ever had that ?


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## Seeker (Feb 25, 2009)

What exactly are these mystical killing techniques anyhow?

Oh wait, I do know some, I learned them in the strip mall right next to the Hallmark store. When I was doing Karate, our Sensei told us that just about every move in our kata could kill someone... in an instant! 

We even had that poster of the underwear clad guy striking a pose with one arm raised in the air, hanging in our dojo. 

We were told that a punch/kick to the solar plexus would stun a man's diaphragm causing him to suffocate, a backfist to the temple would cause the skull to disassemble its self and the brain explode, etc, yadda yadda.

All of those prearranged moves we did in our one-step, the ones that could never be pulled off in our point-style free sparing (much less against a raging drunk) were deadly beyond belief.

But you know, at many points during my 41 years on Earth I have been hit (hard) in most of those magic killer spots and I still type this post from this side of our realm.

So... what are these instant death strikes? I can find plans to build a nuclear bomb on the web, but I cannot seem to find those deadly techniques anywhere.

I guess Ill just have to wait until my Count Dante Dan-ta manual arrives in the mail, I sent away for it oh, about 1973. 

Any day now, enlightenment.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> I understand how you feel Xue. Martial Arts is a war art. How is learning how to eradicate a possible serial killer or murderer of your life or love ones disrespect? I just don't understand why you guys feel that way? I don't live in fear or in dread everyday. I just think outside the box. My Sihing said that alot of Sifu's now and days hide information because they feel too much info to Gwalo will make them worst adversaries.
> 
> My Sifu also hated the idea that many people watered down their arts for profits. My Sifu never condones killing innocent people or hurting people. He never says to be a tyrant or menace. He always advocated humility and kindness. But he also shared that fighting is not a game. An when he demostrated killing techniques he would always say this is only in life threathen situtations. If use this on the public your going to jail. He always say this move is to kill with but don't use it. He always demanded restraint and feared rasining killers. I have never killed anyone...so in 15 years of training I guess He did pretty good.


 
Could you do me a favor and stop bolding your responses that is unless you mean to come across like you are yelling. :asian:

And in over 30 years of MA I have only done one thing I am not at all proud of but no one was killed

Also did you mean gwailo when you wrote gwalo?

If so I am a gwailo since that is a Southern Chinese (Cantonese) for white people, not a nice one, but it is what it is.

My Taiji Sifu is Southern Chinese and he is teaching me all there is to know about his flavor of Yang Taiji, I am his last serious student. Not because I am all that good but I am the only one that appears to want to know the real stuff and he is tired of trying to get others interested in it since all they appear to want is to learn the long form and then run off and teach, not listen to corrections and tell him what they want to learn and not listen to what he wants to teach them.

My Sanda Sifu is Northern Chinese and he is also teaching me all there is to know about Sanda but he will not teach anyone he does not know and trust.

It is ,in some cases, that these Chinese sifus do not teach us gwailo because we are not ready to learn it yet or they simply do not trust our motives for learning. And as I have said many times before (and this came as a rather hard lesson to me) a good Sifu knows better than you do as to what you are ready to learn. It just appears that we here in the west and recently also in the east simple do not want to believe that and do not have the patience to wait.

I am done here, a post on killing moves is simply wrong and rather disrespectful to those that we learn from and I will contribute no more to this.


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## skinters (Feb 25, 2009)

said:
			
		

> I am done here, a post on killing moves is simply wrong and rather disrespectful to those that we learn from and I will contribute no more to this.



you wont find a finer example of self-righteousness.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 25, 2009)

skinters said:


> you wont find a finer example of self-righteousness.


 

selfrighteous - confident of one's own righteousness, esp. when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.

Well I am sure confident in my beliefs on this topic but smug, moralistic and intolerant , not sure about that... call it what you will...


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## skinters (Feb 25, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> selfrighteous - confident of one's own righteousness, esp. when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.
> 
> Well I am sure confident in my beliefs on this topic but smug, moralistic and intolerant , not sure about that... call it what you will...



so much for you being done here.

i find it astounding,that you do not have to talk about killing techniques to realise this whole forum pays tribute to its very practice,and anyone of them can and are used to do that very thing,in one form or another.

yosh made a mistake in the way he worded all this and his way of putting things could in hindsight have been discussed in another way.either way it had done its purpose in the way everyone has an opinion on it.also its not as if there is a list here of killer techniques for the unwary to happen apon,the whole site pays homage to it.


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## MJS (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Nah. I would just phoenix punch a bloke in his throat continously if he tried to mount me. An squeeze his groin and rip them forward. I would try to crush his man piece and rip it out if I could. When falls to his knees counter step behind him an twist his neck backwards until I hear a snap!
> 
> Then when he lays lifeless on the floor I would pretend like his chest is a stack of breaks to be broken with palm strike. That way I can make sure the **** doesn't come back for a seconds try.
> 
> ...


 
Regarding this post.  IMHO, I think you're honestly hoping for things that in reality, probably won't happen.  I'm going to guess that you've never had a good grappler roll with you, because if you had, I'm 99.99% sure, that you may not be able to pull off the above mentioned things.  

As for the OP....many arts have 'killing' techniques.  However, IMHO, I would suggest, that you assess each situation and base your response off of that.  An intoxicated friend at a party who starts to rough house with you vs. someone who is trying to take your life, should result in 2 very different responses from you.  Unless you think you'd enjoy spending life in prison for killing a drunk friend who innocently puts you in a headlock, then go right on with it.  

The martial arts are not always about kicking *** and taking names.  If all you have in your toolbox are things that will take a life, I seriously suggest that you take another look at your training and your teacher.


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## Hagakure (Feb 25, 2009)

I guess in reality, any art, any martial artist, any untrained thug can kill accidentally. What happens if you hit someone that you intended to injure, and you end up killing them? I'd say it's probably easy to talk a good killing, and a crap sight harder to live with it afterwards.

Not knocking your thread Yoshi, more putting a question out there.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Hakarue you are correct. You can accidentally kill someone if you don't know what you doing. I know in past certain points on head I would strike when I was younger not realizing that with enough force they could kill. Now I am weary of attacking those spots even in a eraged brawl...



But I hear you guys go over and over about some guy who is drunk? Either you guys are some alcoholics or you only fight drunks. Either case seems pretty grim to me...wow it must be alot drunks out there looking for a fight. I for one never been in bar fight...I think those things only happen on Television...

As for a poor drunk who attacks me. Well to kill him I don't need WC. Or any death techniques. I can use a inch knife to slice his juglarly.


But if you were a drunk guy attacking me. If I could I would first aim for your legs with a low stomp kick to your knee or side step to kick the side of knee as hard as I could. I would also make your groin my target. If I could I would also chop your throat to make you choke an then chain punch your nose hard and fast.


This would be my strategem against a drunkard.


I wouldnt follow those guidelines verbatim. Like if the guy is running with his head down...I might run to side or grab a chair an hit him ontop of the head or something....


Wing Chun was developed by Soldiers. It was developed my Monks and Nuns grandmasters for the soldiers to use in combat. Very great minds developed WC. Along with that WC science and drastic innovations have came about by great thinkers over the years. So it has changed alot since its original inception making it more complex.


The fights in highschool wasn't me being in a gang. Infact i stayed from gangs. All my friends were Ma's or wrestlers. But ne way. This group of crips like to pick on people. after or first two confrontation they were less likely to all out jump us. They were cautious. As for surviving...they couldnt touch me for real because most of the time I was running. Throwing people who got to close. Blocking an trapping their guards an sweeping their legs. After hitting the ground an my other buddy pounding them with his massive fist...they loss the will to fight.




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1129827 said:
			
		

> Yoshi, I must admit I'm starting to feel a bit stupid, as I seem to have enough "respect" for you to read you entire posts but you just seem to read every third word I write.
> 
> Please read again what I wrote to you befor on another thread:
> You missed my point, Yoshi. The point was that I hope you don't maim/kill somebody, who got into a fight with you, for no real reason. That person could have their whole life ahead of him and maybe just had a bad day and ended up in a fight with you. To put it into a WC context: one of the major points of WC, I feel, is reacting to the problem/attack with the appropriate force/just the force that is needed to handle the problem at hand while doing it in a very straightforward way. Anything else would be an unnecesery waste of energy. That is also very true to the philosophy of Buddhisem on which WC is strongly based on. To take this point a bit further; *there is a time and place for deadly force but WC is not about killing/maiming even tho it has killing/maiming techniques*. Think about it.
> ...


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## bs10927 (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Hakarue you are correct. You can accidentally kill someone if you don't know what you doing. I know in past certain points on head I would strike when I was younger not realizing that with enough force they could kill. Now I am weary of attacking those spots even in a eraged brawl...
> 
> 
> 
> But I hear you guys go over and over about some guy who is drunk? Either you guys are some alcoholics or you only fight drunks. Either case seems pretty grim to me...wow it must be alot drunks out there looking for a fight. I for one never been in bar fight...I think those things only happen on Television...



aren't fighting drunks annoying?  LOL.   they kill my buzz.
hey, when you were jumped into your clique in 8th grade.....were the people you were jumping Crips?


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 25, 2009)

Skinter, my post was directed at Yoshi and Yoshi alone, but I'll do my best to clarify what I ment even further.



> Quote:
> The point was that I hope you don't maim/kill somebody, who got into a fight with you, for no real reason. That person could have their whole life ahead of him and maybe just had a bad day and ended up in a fight with you.
> and what about the life of yosh? there might be a day when anyone has to fight for their life,and happens everyday.you say it in the way he wants to kill someone.


 
That is true. I see you haven't read/haven't understood my post. I'm saying that one should react appropriately, thats all. And yes, he said on other threads that he would kill anyone who attacked him. See my previous post for clarification.



> Quote:
> one of the major points of WC, I feel, is reacting to the problem/attack with the appropriate force/just the force that is needed to handle the problem at hand while doing it in a very straightforward way.
> this is your personal point of veiw, and has statisticly no real evidence,that this kind of calm measured almost mythical approach really works,and in the real world violence that is hard fast and decisive,going all in,usualy gets the job done.


 
How many people have you killed with your "all in" method? Anyway... You are right I have no eveidence about this. This is merely my thought about WC after years of training. You call this a mystical approach; I didn't say it it is easy, but if you care to look at the principals/maxims of WC you will see they are basicly saying what I'm saying. It is also true that WC has a connection with Buddhist philosophy. I don't realy see what you don't agree/don't understand here?

But yes, agressivenes probably is one of the most important factors that determines victory if thats what you ment?

BTW, indeed that is only my personal point of view, that is why I added the "I feel" part to clarify that. But you seemed to miss it.



> Quote:
> *there is a time and place for deadly force but WC is not about killing/maiming even tho it has killing/maiming techniques*. Think about it.
> you can never pick the TIME or PLACE when to fight for your life.how absurd.how can it have killing techniques,and not be about it?


 
That is true. Did I claim otherwise? Again I don't see what your problem is. About my absurd claim; is basketball about dribling becouse it has dribling in it? Is school about mathematchis? I could go on and on, but I will not insult your inteligence with that as I'm sure you know what I mean. The lethal techniques are just tools in your toolbox and becouse they are in your toolbox doesn't mean you have to kill everybody when using the tools from the toolbox on them. Does that sound more clear?

To put it into WC context; some lineages regard Biu tze as an "emergency form"(I would rather just call it an advanced form tho) from which techniques should only be used when absolutely necesery-thus the "emergency". They probably say this becouse many techniques in the BT form could be used as maiming techniques. Just becouse they are there doesn't mean WC is all about killing. It just means that it has an answer to one more question/to one more "level of difficulty" so to speak.



> Quote:
> I _usualy_ don't respond to posts I don't agree with just to make them understand my opinion
> yes you do.we all do


 
Ok, I guess you are right. Well, I am responding to your post and I don't agree with you/don't know what your trying to tell me.



> Quote:
> The "fact" that WC was created for killing is your opinion. By which *you* are acctualy dumbfying the art.
> you remark in absolutes,as in the absolute truth.and where is his right to opinion?


 
I was merely responding to his statement about those who feel WC is not an art about killing are dumbing the art or something in this context. He has hi right to an opinion ofcourse  But if he kills a guy who just punched him I'm sure his opinion will be heard only by psychiatrists.

And what about my right to an opinion LOL?!



> Quote:
> The funny thing is that when I first started training, I came to my instructur with this same article(and others) and asked him what he thinks about this plusible examples of WC history. He said something along the lines that WC is to smart and too complex to have been developed in a time of war by soldiers or by thiefs and assasins by uneducated people.
> . I didn't think much of the answer. But now some yoears later I'm starting to see truth in that more and more.
> may i suggest your first gut instinct was right.


 
You may. Wich is your humble opinion ofcourse 



> Quote:
> It's a thinking mans art(heard that before?).
> once to many.


 
But I get the feeling you don't understand this/don't agree with it?



> Quote:
> Also the connections between Buddhist philosophy and WC are so severe that it's not likely a coincidence. C'mon, they even put in 2 Sam Bai Fut sections in 2 forms! Sam Bai Fut meaning the three bows to Buddha! Each bow having it's meaning.
> again,even further removed from reality,and boarders on the religous.


 
I have no idea why you say that. It's acctualy quite a fact. About it being religeous...Hm, well I could tell you how Buddhist theories correlate with modern science and with things such as the theory of relativety and with Einsteins mass-energy equivalence and much more. But I won't becouse I don't like you 



> Quote:
> As for your fight experience... Yoshi! I'm not talking about fights in high school or at Gym class. Neither you being in a gang and beating up people. The fact that you were jumped by 10-20 people and survived tells me two things: either you are the best fighter I have ever heard of, or we have totaly diffrent definitions of a fight. I take it you have never been in a fight on the street, where somebody you didn't know wanted to hurt you badly? I had "fights" in high school and elementary school to, but sparring sessions I do this days are more intense/dangerous than thos "fights".
> i suggest you ARE talking about fights in highschool or gym class,as you refer it to your own experience.the fact he survived being jumped on,tells me he was extemely lucky,to get out in one peice. also your sparring sessions being harder than scraps at school is hardly difficult eh ?
> 
> we have all had scraps and slaps while in school but thats all they were petty scraps.compare this with a 16 stone drunk man,smashing up the place and he wants some,ever had that ?


 
I'm confused about what your trying to make me see. Again... You can call it lucky, I will call it: "not a fight".


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## skinters (Feb 25, 2009)

> The fights in highschool wasn't me being in a gang. Infact i stayed from gangs. All my friends were Ma's or wrestlers. But ne way. This group of crips like to pick on people. after or first two confrontation they were less likely to all out jump us. They were cautious. As for surviving...they couldnt touch me for real because most of the time I was running. Throwing people who got to close. Blocking an trapping their guards an sweeping their legs. After hitting the ground an my other buddy pounding them with his massive fist...they loss the will to fight.



lol@ massive fist.

could read your stories all day mucker.


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## Nolerama (Feb 25, 2009)

Could this thread be Yoshiyahu's version of a "killing technique?"

Because this post+my brain=burning and stinging.

:barf:


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## skinters (Feb 25, 2009)

> Skinter, my post was directed at Yoshi and Yoshi alone, but I'll do my best to clarify what I ment even further.



so you can pompously,posture in front of everyone,and further ridicule him ?you know whatever he comes back with is going to be slightly unorthodox.also you never said it was for his eyes only.



> That is true. I see you haven't read/haven't understood my post.



how can you say it is true,and i have not understood it the same time?it dont make sense .i have understood where your coming from perfectly fine.  



> How many people have you killed with your "all in" method?



none,it just gets the job done.



> You are right I have no eveidence about this.



we agree on something.



> but if you care to look at the principals/maxims of WC you will see they are basicly saying what I'm saying. It is also true that WC has a connection with Buddhist philosophy. I don't realy see what you don't agree/don't understand here?



the principles of WC are there to be adapted and changed to suit each person,afer all wingchun is seen by many as  constantly changing to adapt to modern ways of thinking,and not stagnated.i am not a practising buddist but the connection hardly religious,although you use those overtones,which imo totaly out of context.



> But yes, agressivenes probably is one of the most important factors that determines victory if thats what you ment?
> 
> BTW, indeed that is only my personal point of view, that is why I added the "I feel" part to clarify that. But you seemed to miss it.



you agree at first,then spoil it with the,i seem to miss it comment,i miss nothing. 



> That is true. Did I claim otherwise? Again I don't see what your problem is. About my absurd claim; is basketball about dribling becouse it has dribling in it? Is school about mathematchis? I could go on and on, but I will not insult your inteligence with that as I'm sure you know what I mean. The lethal techniques are just tools in your toolbox and becouse they are in your toolbox doesn't mean you have to kill everybody when using the tools from the toolbox on them. Does that sound more clear?



yes you did claim otherwise.again i dont have a problem,i hope you realise that anything you say in here can and will be reponded to even if it is not quite what you want to hear.i could also go on but unlike yourself i will not as i am sure you know what i mean.



> To put it into WC context; some lineages regard Biu tze as an "emergency form"(I would rather just call it an advanced form tho) from which techniques should only be used when absolutely necesery-thus the "emergency". They probably say this becouse many techniques in the BT form could be used as maiming techniques. Just becouse they are there doesn't mean WC is all about killing. It just means that it has an answer to one more question/to one more "level of difficulty" so to speak.



what happened to not insulting my intelligence?:wink2:


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## skinters (Feb 25, 2009)

> I was merely responding to his statement about those who feel WC is not an art about killing are dumbing the art or something in this context. He has hi right to an opinion ofcourse  But if he kills a guy who just punched him I'm sure his opinion will be heard only by psychiatrists.



i think on the whole he as taken it quite well being refered to as psychotic.why respond to anyone you feel incapable of fitting into your world view.



> And what about my right to an opinion LOL?!



well hopefully your opinions wont be met with psychotic remarks.



> But I get the feeling you don't understand this/don't agree with it?



well regarding the ol nugget that wingchun is a thinking mans game,im a uneducated S.O.B,and my wingchun is excellent.



> I have no idea why you say that. It's acctualy quite a fact. About it being religeous...Hm, well I could tell you how Buddhist theories correlate with modern science and with things such as the theory of relativety and with Einsteins mass-energy equivalence and much more. But I won't becouse I don't like you



it just dont sit well with me,there are other religions who practice wingchun,again it is completly out of context with the thread.



> I'm confused about what your trying to make me see. Again... You can call it lucky, I will call it: "not a fight".


call it what you like,it wont matter to your attacker,you fight to survive,everything is not walker texas ranger.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

No, in sixth grade to eight grade the click was a bunch of wrestlers mostly...no gang affiliation. We mostly did pranks, had large sparring matches. Nothing in that grade that really sent someone to hospital. Now in HS that was different. Their were gang members there. I was not one of them though...I would look kinda of funny in gang...i like to wear all sorts of colors except for pink...

lol...


I was never jumped into a clique. But one time I was almost jumped for not being with certain people...who felt were gang members.




bs10927 said:


> aren't fighting drunks annoying? LOL. they kill my buzz.
> hey, when you were jumped into your clique in 8th grade.....were the people you were jumping Crips?


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

My post turn into a post about killing drunks. Going out an becoming an assasin or just going out an being serial killer.

I was simply asking if other Kwoons teach these techniques or supress them?


An what peoples opinions are on these techniques.

They are starting to burn my brain too I am with you buddy. But since I started the post I feel obligated to objectifiy my post by responding. 


Wow they make me seem i am a monster...Like the guy in the movie Return of swordsman. He would kill anyone who fought...even his family and friends. Just to prove his Sword play was the best.

Talk about crazy...



Nolerama said:


> Could this thread be Yoshiyahu's version of a "killing technique?"
> 
> Because this post+my brain=burning and stinging.
> 
> :barf:


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## Si-Je (Feb 25, 2009)

I think killing techniques would be taught far later in one's training.  Sifu hasn't taught any to his students yet because they haven't gotten that far into WC yet.
I've been studying 3-4 years (a year off for being preggerz.   ) and he's only shown a couple of stuff, mainly punching the third lumbar in the neck, that would do it on a "shoot in".  But, we don't emphasize that too often.  My other instructor did alot.  He's nasty that way, lol! Mexican tatoo's and all things aside, I thing that is knowledge that should only be available to the serious and committed martial artist.  Not just any joe blow student that comes in the door.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 25, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> *I think killing techniques would be taught far later in one's training*..


 
Err...........



Si-Je said:


> Sifu hasn't taught any to his students yet because they haven't gotten that far into WC yet..


 
You are kidding, right?



Si-Je said:


> I've been studying 3-4 years (a year off for being preggerz.  ) and he's only shown a couple of stuff, mainly punching the third lumbar in the neck, that would do it on a "shoot in". But, we don't emphasize that too often. My other instructor did alot. He's nasty that way, lol! Mexican tatoo's and all things aside, I thing that is knowledge that should only be available to the serious and committed martial artist. Not just any joe blow student that comes in the door.


 

Ok, so, what you are saying is that your instructors actually 'teach' you how to kill? Am I reading this right? I mean, I saw you say that your current teacher doesn't have students at a 'high enough level' to learn how to kill (whatever the hell that means). Are you saying that when they reach a certain standard, he is actually going to teach them how to kill?

Pretty much any art has techniques that kill. Students are more than aware of the dangers of specific techniques, and any instructor worth his/her salt will endeavour to educate the students on the 'dangers' of application of techniques.
There is no reason or logic behind an instructor _specifically_ teaching 'kill' techniques to everyday man. The military, yes, of course. There is absolutely no need for anyone to be teaching people the specifics of how to kill in a public facility. 
You say that you only think this sort of knowledge should only be available to commited students. IMO, it doesn't matter what level you're at, there is no need to specifically teach people how to kill.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 25, 2009)

> so you can pompously,posture in front of everyone,and further ridicule him ?you know whatever he comes back with is going to be slightly unorthodox.also you never said it was for his eyes only.


 
If I were posturing infront of people I would make sure to use my real name so I could take all the credit  I don't know why you say that tho. Look, I have nothing against unorthodox, the thing that bothered me was the statement that he would kill anyone who attacked him and he would feel no remorse for it. And no, I do not aprove of that kind of thinking. Killing people is bad lol 



> how can you say it is true,and i have not understood it the same time?it dont make sense .i have understood where your coming from perfectly fine.


 
I agreed with what you were saying. But the fact that you were convincing me into something I am allready saying makes me think that you either haven't read my post or haven't understood it. Does that make sense now? And no you haven't understood my previous post. If you would have you would have understood that my comments refered to Yoshis overexagerated, hypothetical responses to being attacked-killing people. Clearly not necesery in every kind of attack but thats what he's saying.



> none,it just gets the job done.


 
Ok, then you agree that killing people isn't necesery to defend yourself in most attacks. Morality and ethics could be involved too but those things are very subjective so I won't go there. But would you agree then, that killing people when not necesery is unnecesery lol? 



> we agree on something.


 
Look, if you want evidence, look at anyone who uses WC. Thats some evidence for you. Again I think your missing my point. I didn't say it is easy. Neither did I say one can master it completely, but thats the beuty of WC to me  One can allways improve, even after 60years of training.



> the principles of WC are there to be adapted and changed to suit each person,afer all wingchun is seen by many as constantly changing to adapt to modern ways of thinking,and not stagnated.i am not a practising buddist but the connection hardly religious,although you use those overtones,which imo totaly out of context.


 
In my personal opinion that is not true. Techniques could/can be adapted to the individual. The fact is we are not compltely the same-thus we can't all fight the same. But principals shouldn't be changed as that would no longer be WC then. What principal would you change? The shortest path from A to B is a straight line? Use the nearest weapon to strike the nearest target? Don't use force against force?

I think Jeet Kune Do would be more suited for you. Sincerrely. Try it out. Read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do if you haven't. Great book!

The things I say about Buddhism seem out of context to you only becouse you don't understand them. But belive they do coralate. Try reading something about Buddhism, you might like it. It's acctualy very straightforward and no-boolsheet in it's phylosophy. BTW, ask your Si-Fu about Sam Bai Fut and what does it mean.



> you agree at first,then spoil it with the,i seem to miss it comment,i miss nothing.


 
I wrote that becouse you toled me with such pride that I have noi real evidence for that and that is only my opinion but I allready made it clear that that is only my opinion. I can only conclude that you missed it lol. You the unmissable one! 



> yes you did claim otherwise.again i dont have a problem,i hope you realise that anything you say in here can and will be reponded to even if it is not quite what you want to hear.i could also go on but unlike yourself i will not as i am sure you know what i mean.


 
No  I haven't  Honestly, all I wanted to do with my post was to make Yoshi see that killing is not the answer in every attack. And please do go on as I do not know what you mean.



> what happened to not insulting my intelligence?:wink2:


 
So you agree? Whats the problem then? What is acctualy bothering you in my posts? Are you arguing yourself? Please tell me on which points you don't agree instead of critisising my posts. Explain where you feel I'm in error and what is your position on this things.



> i think on the whole he as taken it quite well being refered to as psychotic.why respond to anyone you feel incapable of fitting into your world view.


 
Again, I felt the need to point out that killing people should not be taken lightley. I still don't know if you agree with Yoshi, me or are just arguing with yourself. It seems to me your just trolling and critisising my posts. Instead of that please inlight me with your opinion, don't just tell me how far off I'm with my way of thinking.



> well hopefully your opinions wont be met with psychotic remarks.


 
I don't care realy. But again, stop just critisising and trolling. I expect you to at least tell me whats your position on the subject if you feel that all I say is wrong? Do you agree with Yoshi? Killing a 60 kg teenager who attacks you with fists is OK?



> well regarding the ol nugget that wingchun is a thinking mans game,im a uneducated S.O.B,and my wingchun is excellent.


 
Thats great! My WC on the other hand still needs *a lot* of work.



> it just dont sit well with me,there are other religions who practice wingchun,again it is completly out of context with the thread.


 
What are you saying here? I never said Buddhism practices WC? I just said that there are clrearly strong influences from Buddhist philosophy in WC. You see it out of context becouse as you yourself mentioned you don't know much about Buddhism.



> call it what you like,it wont matter to your attacker,you fight to survive,everything is not walker texas ranger.


 
Now thats a shocker  Look, I never said that killing maiming strikes shouldn't be used. I would use them myself *if necesery*/if I felt they were necesery, but using them just becouse you can is kind of...hm...unnecesery.

In conclusion to my long post I would like to say that you are a troll  Please tell me your opinion on the subject! I look forward in reading it! But I will quit playing this game with you becouse our ways of thinking are clearly not compatible to say the least  Criticise all you want, this is my last response to you on this thread.

Enjoy!


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## Si-Je (Feb 25, 2009)

I learned several kill moves just taking Japanese Ju-Jitsu.  Plenty of simple neck breaks, it's part of martial arts. And it's not that hard.
Learning how NOT to kill, that's where the challenge is.

I don't see why your getting so upset.  And no, it's not about a student "proving their salt" or whatever.  It depends on the person and their needs and how long they plan to comit to taking martial arts.  I've known several martial artist that know how to kill quickly and easily from several different arts.
Would you want to empart that knowledge to someone who's probably only going to take the class for a few months or a couple of years, or would you rather have a long time student who you've gotten to know very well, watched them for several years and know who and what they really are to teach such serious techniques too?  Or would you rather just teach everyone who waltzes through the door?
My Sifu and I are very close and we know eachother very well.  If he decides I may 'need" to know killing moves, that's his personal decision.  He's the one that went through learning much of that stuff in the U.S.M.C and all that was was a mixture of a bunch of arts thrown in together.  They took all the easy to learn KILLING moves and more practical moves out of each art and bam, you have a well trained soldier.
Why is it do you think, I do not have a right or have earned the trust of Sensi's and Sifu's to teach me killing moves? Or someone else that has trained and loves, and values and MA over a large portion of their life time? You become  a martial artist, and you learn the code of ethos taught by your teachers and their teachers, and your own heart.
So, someone could buy guns and shoot to kill even in self defense where they have the right to defend themselves and this is okay?! When a stray bullet kills the child sleeping in the apartment next to you, or down the street as you shoot someone who is trying to kill or rape or rob you? And it's NOT okay for a person to know when it kill and when it's needed and when it's not?  Whereas you could kill in SD and not harm another with some stray bullet or wandering knife?  So, civilians have no need to learn this stuff?  Or their not worthy because their not law enforcement or military?
Very odd.
So, as a civy, I can shoot someone in the eye, but I can't break their neck when their trying to rape me.  Neato.

I guess each to their own.  This is a hotbead of a controversial topic.  Good one to talk about.  Each martial artist must think about and come to terms with this issue.  Whether or not you actually learn specific kill techniques when you use WC in the street or in SD you can still easily kill someone. Killing is easy. Your power in your punching could be stronger than you know with adrenalin pumping or the guy could have a bad heart, or other condition.  When you go out there punching, kicking, and fighting people a good blow to the head can easily kill.  You could chainpunch them to the ground and they fall on something sharp, or blunt (that maybe breaks their back, crippling or killing them). In fighting there is always the chance of death, especially in SD. Which is what WC/WT is all about. Realistic self defense.

Do you think it's realistic self defense if someone is bound and determined to KILL YOU and all you do is slap them around awhile? That you don't return the favor?  That you don't give the fight all you've got to survive?
Hey, it's your life.  And this is mine.  
I'll learn whatever people will teach me and use it with discression.  But, at least I'll know that if I need it it's there.  And most likely I won't need it, so it's all good!


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Sorry buddy for bringing you into this conversation. As for your one statement. You said the way I brought about the topic. I humbly asked you how could I have presented the topic more suitable for mass consumption. I merely wanted to get a convo out there about killing Techs. One thing I accomplish was to those who didn't know there are these techniques in WC and every other art now they know. An knowing is half the battle.



skinters said:


> lol@ massive fist.
> 
> could read your stories all day mucker.


 


skinters said:


> i think on the whole he as taken it quite well being refered to as psychotic.why respond to anyone you feel incapable of fitting into your world view.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

AS for Eru Ilúvatar In other post on another thread. When i brought the topic up I believe the thread was when to use excessive force. I may have worded it wrong. I don't debilbrately meditate on using my Art to kill anyone who wants to fight me. I said along time ago. Mostly I will walk away. If someone punch me in the face like one time I would still try to get out of the fight. I would either talk my way out of it or walk backwards out of it. 

Now if that didn't work then maybe I would fight. But lets say its guy my size are smaller. I am not going to try to dislodge his heart from his chest. I am not going to try to use a controlling technique to get in posistion of his back so I can snap his neck. No I would mostly keep my distance. Throw some kicks and try to get him winded. I may even hit him with chain punches,torque punches to nose. Palm strikes to sides of face and chops to neck or throat to stun him. Not all out breaking power...but enough to make him not want to fight.

Now for a guy bigger than me. Him I will seriously try to hurt. Out of fear mostly. I might kill him on accident. But not purposely. I would definitely attack his pressure points. But my main intial targets would be his knees with low kicks. His shins with low kicks. If I could get him into a arm lock where he is put into a submissive posistion standing up I than I would try to break his arm or snap it out of socket to end the fight. Mostly my punches would be for nose.

Now if it was group of guys. Or someone trying to rob me or do me serious harm with a weapon or what not. An I felt I had no escape or I had people to protect. That individual I would think twice. My goal would be to knock him unconscious by hitting him the back of head which is also a killing point. Palm striking his nose really hard which could dislodge his bone into his brain if I hit at the wrong angle. I may try to stick my thumb in his eye. I may try hard strikes to his throats and phoenix punches to certain parts of his face and head. 

If there multiple attackers(4 or more). I would do the same along with trying to quickly break something on any of them that got to close to me if I could. I would always aim for the throat,middle of eyes,nose with punches and palms. Kicks to groin when possible. An try to break in the knee caps if I could. Even if I can't break in their legs. Atleast they will be sore. An if I get a chance to run. They cant give chase.

But No sir...I am sorry if worded a statement wrong to imply any blow joe who comes to fight me is going to be killed. I don't need WC to kill with. I run someone over with my car. Hit them on top of their head with my baseball bat. Hit them in the head with baoding ball in sock. stab them with a hard metal fountain pen in throat. There are always ways to kill with out WC. Screwdrivers make great weapons.

But I don't live and breath who I gotta kill each day. If I had to kill to defend my home or my booty. No, I wouldn't have nightmares about killing them. I might have nightmares about almost dying or getting rape...But not about killing someone who hated me that they wanted me dead.


Let me reinterate this face...


I DO NOT BELIEVE The only purpose of Wing Chun is to kill people with.

I Do not believe Wing Chun is only about Tan Sau. No you have other techniques

I do not believe Wing Chun is only about Softness or Internal boxing No you have external and hard aspects of WC too.

I do not believe WC is only about fighting. No WC is also about being fit and healthy.

I do not believe WC is only for lazy people who don't want to train hard an get in better shape. True WC will make you stronger,more flexible,more stamina,more sensitive,more humble and yes possible a better fighter or killer. But its not about one thing alone. If thats what you get from me. I am sorry. It seems when I post a thread It appears that I am saying WC is only one way.

WC is not all about striking...you have throws and sweeps and even joint locks.

WC is not all about using your hands. You have kicks too.

Do you see what I am saying yet?


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## skinters (Feb 25, 2009)

> In conclusion to my long post I would like to say that you are a troll  Please tell me your opinion on the subject! I look forward in reading it! But I will quit playing this game with you becouse our ways of thinking are clearly not compatible to say the least  Criticise all you want, this is my last response to you on this thread.
> 
> Enjoy!



An *Internet troll*, or simply *troll* in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]

you would do better to examine your posts a bit closer.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Sandstorm said:


> Err...........
> IMO, it doesn't matter what level you're at, there is no need to specifically teach people how to kill.


 

My Question is why not?

Hey ERU?



> But would you agree then, that killing people when not necesery is unnecesery lol?


 
I agree actually your right on point here!



> No  I haven't  Honestly, all I wanted to do with my post was to make Yoshi see that killing is not the answer in every attack. And please do go on as I do not know what you mean.


 

Eru I actually agree on this point too. For instance with my drunk cousin. When ever we had altercations I usually just deflected and intercepted his attacks with out actually hurting him. If he ever got into chi sau range I would probably just drop him or swept him.



> don't care realy. But again, stop just critisising and trolling. I expect you to at least tell me whats your position on the subject if you feel that all I say is wrong? Do you agree with Yoshi? Killing a 60 kg teenager who attacks you with fists is OK?


 

_Eru I never said this!_



> Now thats a shocker  Look, I never said that killing maiming strikes shouldn't be used. I would use them myself *if necesery*/if I felt they were necesery, but using them just becouse you can is kind of...hm...unnecesery.


 

You are correct killing for the fun of it or just because you can is totally wrong Eru. An I haven't killed any one. So we are actually in agreement on that. But If I had to kill or felt it was necessary then I would use what techniques I had to. But that would be only after my first three options failed to work.

1.Talk my way out of it or Walk away.
2.Call the police.
3.Kick him in the nuts and run.

Now if someone body was like they wanna beat me up because they like me...it depends...is it a large group of them? Is it one on one. Is it someone bigger and stronger than me capable of killing me. Is it a thug or robber or mugger? Is some little kid? Is it friend? Is a person with a history of assualt or murder? Is someone who crazy or deranged? All these things play a part in my reaction to them. Plus just because you know how to kill doesn't mean you have the chance to use them in the heat of battle. Plus if you subdue your foe by other means why kill them. Simply run away. Now if you can't run away. An afraid that this person will knock you out an snap your neck or stomp you while your down. Then maybe you should do what you can to kill them or knock them out. But knocking them out will more than likely happen first.

But if you can't do either atleast hurt them really bad so you can run away.


But I am sorry I seem to have peed you off royally Eru. This topic really angers you. Thats not my intention at all. As for killing sprees. I have weapons I could kill with easily. I don't readily use them even in the streets. If I do use them its mainly to slow or stun them so I can hurt them with less lethal technique. Now my knives in street fight with like 4 or more guys. One of them might be dead. I am not going to even give them a chance to hurt me on get me down. I am going for blood if its 4 or more and corner or surrounded. I would simply try to cut one so I could run away if they gave chase I would stop an cut some more. That way I don't have to worry about getting winded. An maybe jog so more away. If they keep chasing I would stand an fight an try to hopefully take out some of their rage or desire for confrontation. Maybe they would disperse or relent. But four or more guys. No my friend. Using techniques to preserve their life are not going through my head.

If I was to kill it would not be out of "Just because I can." It would be out of fear of getting hurt. Thats why I always wanted to take martial arts as a kid. Because I was afraid of someone hurting me. So out of fear of being maimed or killed or worse. I would kill with out remorse thats me. Maybe you think I crazy but like you said every one is different. An we are not a monolith.



Si-Je post below is the point I was trying to make. I do not always express things well with my words. But this is main point.




> Do you think it's realistic self defense if someone is bound and determined to KILL YOU and all you do is slap them around awhile? That you don't return the favor? That you don't give the fight all you've got to survive?
> Hey, it's your life. And this is mine.
> I'll learn whatever people will teach me and use it with discression. But, at least I'll know that if I need it it's there. And most likely I won't need it, so it's all good!


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshi, when you put it like that, we're more like minded on the subject than I thought. I apologise if I judged you wrongly. But you must admit that the wording that you chose made it seem that when your in a fight your in for a kill.

I'm glad we sorted this out! On a forum things can be missinterpreted easily and we're not mindreaders. But as I said it seems we're on the same page so to speak.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 25, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> I learned several kill moves just taking Japanese Ju-Jitsu. Plenty of simple neck breaks, it's part of martial arts. And it's not that hard.
> Learning how NOT to kill, that's where the challenge is.


 
I think most of the people on these boards know how to 'kill'. The emphasis is not on the techniques themselves, it's in the instructor actually 'teaching to kill' in the classroom. This is where I have an issue.



> I don't see why your getting so upset.


I'd call it surprised, rather than upset



> And no, it's not about a student "proving their salt" or whatever. It depends on the person and their needs and how long they plan to comit to taking martial arts. I've known several martial artist that know how to kill quickly and easily from several different arts.


 
Sorry, but I fail to see what difference that makes. So, in your view, if someone has spent the past 20-30 years in an art, they now have earned the right to learn 'kill' techniques?




> Would you want to empart that knowledge to someone who's probably only going to take the class for a few months or a couple of years, or would you rather have a long time student who you've gotten to know very well, watched them for several years and know who and what they really are to teach such serious techniques too? Or would you rather just teach everyone who waltzes through the door?


 
I would rather be much more responsible as a teacher, and make sure that the classes I run are sensible, safe, realistic and free from fantastical techniques and dangerous theology. If you are teaching people to 'kill' in the class, you are subconciously preparing a mindest that is potentially lethal.



> My Sifu and I are very close and we know eachother very well. If he decides I may 'need" to know killing moves, that's his personal decision.


 
I would seriously look at changing your teacher.



> He's the one that went through learning much of that stuff in the U.S.M.C and all that was was a mixture of a bunch of arts thrown in together. They took all the easy to learn KILLING moves and more practical moves out of each art and bam, you have a well trained soldier.


 
Which is where, if anywhere, these techniques belong. Not in a high street dojo.



> Why is it do you think, I do not have a right or have earned the trust of Sensi's and Sifu's to teach me killing moves?


 
He has probably tought you moves that can kill already, since your first day. Why take it to specifics?



> Or someone else that has trained and loves, and values and MA over a large portion of their life time? You become a martial artist, and you learn the code of ethos taught by your teachers and their teachers, and your own heart.


 
Absolutely




> So, someone could buy guns and shoot to kill even in self defense where they have the right to defend themselves and this is okay?! When a stray bullet kills the child sleeping in the apartment next to you, or down the street as you shoot someone who is trying to kill or rape or rob you? And it's NOT okay for a person to know when it kill and when it's needed and when it's not? Whereas you could kill in SD and not harm another with some stray bullet or wandering knife? So, civilians have no need to learn this stuff? Or their not worthy because their not law enforcement or military?


 
So, on the off-chance that one of those events might occur, your instructor feels it necessary to teach you specific 'Kill' techniques, just in case?





> Very odd.
> So, as a civy, I can shoot someone in the eye, but I can't break their neck when their trying to rape me. Neato.


 
You can do as you feel fit, and face whatever legal repurcussions.




> I guess each to their own. This is a hotbead of a controversial topic. Good one to talk about. Each martial artist must think about and come to terms with this issue. Whether or not you actually learn specific kill techniques when you use WC in the street or in SD you can still easily kill someone. Killing is easy. Your power in your punching could be stronger than you know with adrenalin pumping or the guy could have a bad heart, or other condition. When you go out there punching, kicking, and fighting people a good blow to the head can easily kill. You could chainpunch them to the ground and they fall on something sharp, or blunt (that maybe breaks their back, crippling or killing them). In fighting there is always the chance of death, especially in SD. Which is what WC/WT is all about. Realistic self defense.


 
Precisely, so why learn specifics (again)




> *Do you think it's realistic self defense if someone is bound and determined to KILL YOU and all you do is slap them around awhile?* That you don't return the favor? That you don't give the fight all you've got to survive?
> Hey, it's your life. And this is mine.
> I'll learn whatever people will teach me and use it with discression. But, at least I'll know that if I need it it's there. And most likely I won't need it, so it's all good!


 
Hey, if this is all it takes to stop the assault, then I'm up for it. I will endeavour to do anything I need to survive, of course, but the last thing on my mind is wanting to kill someone. It would need to be extreme circumstances for me to even contemplate ending someones life in civvy street. These are personal choices based on experience.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

No matter what Skinters and Eru this topic seems to be very hot an heated. Even those who are not arguing against me have something to say.


I simply wanted to share that I don't think killing techniques in WC are such a big deal. True someone could kill someone with it. But even with Killing techniques being taught if you practice long enough an read an study other arts as well you will figure out how to kill with your WC eventually.

Plus its much easier for me to shoot someone close range or with a automatic weapon I can buy from the hood than to kill them with my bare hands. With a illegal weapon that you can throw away an also buy silencer for you will have less evidence pointing back to you. With a close of kill with your bare hands your bound to leave dna evidence. 




But this is such a hot topic. I want to keep the discussion open with a posistive light. I merely think guns and knives are more readily accessible if you want to kill someone. My Sidai keeps two knives on his sides that he can flip open at any time an kill someone with.

But he hasn't killed anyone yet that I know of. But he would use his knives before trying to snap someones neck. I think training certain kungs gives you advantage against would be attackers who have knives,guns,or large group of people trying to get you. Thats my measily point. Sorry that My Approach leaves so many rattle cages. I am not endorsing going out an killing for fun guys. So if thats what you believe sorry for that. But as Sije posted the reason for learning killing Techs is my reasoning behind this thread! Self preservation. 

But skinters its interesting many people hate this topic...but seem to love it so well!


They cant stay away!




skinters said:


> An *Internet troll*, or simply *troll* in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]
> 
> you would do better to examine your posts a bit closer.


 


Yoshiyahu said:


> My Question is why not?
> 
> Hey ERU?
> 
> ...


 


			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1130197 said:
			
		

> Yoshi, when you put it like that, we're more like minded on the subject than I thought. I apologise if I judged you wrongly. But you must admit that the wording that you chose made it seem that when your in a fight your in for a kill.
> 
> I'm glad we sorted this out! On a forum things can be missinterpreted easily and we're not mindreaders. But as I said it seems we're on the same page so to speak.


----------



## Si-Je (Feb 25, 2009)

It's a good topic and one that all martial artists should understand their moral position on right away.  Especially if they are to train for a long time.

And yes, I would rather have a student that has trained with "my sifu" for many years (and he would too) before teaching such techniques. Really, with a very long time student over years would be taught to "finish the art", to give them a complete knowledge of the art. Is this for everyone? no. not everyone wants or needs to know or understand the entire art.  Killing techniques included.

As for changing Sifu's, that's just not going to be happening.   I'm stuck with the guy for life. Till death and all that...lol!

Other arts teaching killing techniques way early.  I only took 3 years of JJJ and learned 5 different neck breaking techniques while only a year and a half in art.  Woooo! That's pretty early for just anyone to know how to do that stuff.  But, that was Shodai's call, it was his federation, and his charts.  
It was neat to learn.  Actually scared me to death just practicing them on someone, I didn't like it very much.  But, I did appreciate learning how to do it.
Would I ever EVER use that stuff? Not without recieveing a severe beating first, being brought to my attention that there was no other way, someone trying to kill or kidnap my daughter, (yes, I will break a dude's neck trying to kidnap my daughter. For once he takes her I will kill him before I she's found in a ditch somewhere. reality sucks) if someone walks into my house with a gun or knife, they just might get killed if I can pull it off because I figure that's what their gonna do too.  (plus, it's legal in my state to kill in all the situations I've stated.)  You simply have to be in "fear of your life".  So, lets end that please.
I don't break the law, or condone it.

But, what's been taught to me as killing move's in WC have been very few.  I haven't learned Bui Gee yet.  
Coming soon to a Si-Je near you!  
Working on some Biu Gee applications in chi sau and such, but not the form yet.
(hey, that's a little backwards, will ask Sifu about that.)


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## AceHBK (Feb 25, 2009)

This thread is 4 pages too long.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Its a great thread everyone seems to love and hate. Your posting here actually gives precidence to this. Now you just help make it page number five or six.




AceHBK said:


> This thread is 4 pages too long.


 

Very interesting Si-Je. Tell hubbie I said Simpre Fi!


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## skinters (Feb 25, 2009)

> But skinters its interesting many people hate this topic...but seem to love it so well!
> 
> 
> They cant stay away!



well brother you could have worded it a bit better,no worries.and yes you have rocked the house again. 

p.s
ill show you some killing techniques if you put us through all this again :wink2::lfao:


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## Sandstorm (Feb 25, 2009)

skinters said:


> ill show you some killing techniques if you put us through all this again


 :lfao:


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## Kreth (Feb 25, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> mainly punching the third lumbar in the neck


Um... your lumbar vertebrae are quite a bit lower than your neck. :idunno:


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## Sandstorm (Feb 25, 2009)

Kreth said:


> Um... your lumbar vertebrae are quite a bit lower than your neck. :idunno:


 
Good spot


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## Si-Je (Feb 25, 2009)

Kreth said:


> Um... your lumbar vertebrae are quite a bit lower than your neck. :idunno:


 
Pardon, lol! I'm not a chiropractor. Just know where to punchy punch.  
Naughty naughty places.  Thanks for straightening me out.  
Damnit Jim, I'm a techie, not a Doctor! lol!


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## skinters (Feb 25, 2009)

Kreth said:


> Um... your lumbar vertebrae are quite a bit lower than your neck. :idunno:



yeah i think she just meant the cervical vertebra.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 25, 2009)

You all seem to miss the dangers of running with a pencil up ones nose.


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## skinters (Feb 25, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> You all seem to miss the dangers of running with a pencil up ones nose.



 you seen that youtube vid then ?


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 25, 2009)

It's on Youtube?


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## skinters (Feb 25, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> It's on Youtube?



i doubled up laughing.

im sure its on there somewhere mucker .


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Please share how I could have worded it better?


Also what does mucker mean?





skinters said:


> well brother you could have worded it a bit better,no worries.and yes you have rocked the house again.
> 
> p.s
> ill show you some killing techniques if you put us through all this again :wink2::lfao:


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## skinters (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Please share how I could have worded it better?
> 
> 
> Also what does mucker mean?



well you might have gotten away with using the word killing and life ending lethal etc,if you explained that you knew it was an awkward subject to talk about,and didnt want to come across the wrong way.something along those lines.its all ended with you being a psycho,me being a troll,the most talked about thread in history,and pissed off quite a few martialtalk patrons .

never mind eh,there a lot worse doing the rounds(although i cant think what)haha

mucker means friend.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

I never been one to be politically correct. People from everywhere are easily offended about everything. Man I tell you...I feel sorry for Barak Obama. I would hate to have that job he has.

Because him being black he really has to watch what he says. An people close to him I would hate their job too. Especially the white ones. If they say the wrong things to him an its deemed as racist then they could arrested and loose thier job.





skinters said:


> well you might have gotten away with using the word killing and life ending lethal etc,if you explained that you knew it was an awkward subject to talk about,and didnt want to come across the wrong way.something along those lines.its all ended with you being a psycho,me being a troll,the most talked about thread in history,and pissed off quite a few martialtalk patrons .
> 
> never mind eh,there a lot worse doing the rounds(although i cant think what)haha
> 
> mucker means friend.


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## Si-Je (Feb 25, 2009)

I think folks get really knee jerk about alot of topics here sometimes, and it's mainly due to the medium. Being in text you don't have tone of voice, body language, and such to clarify someone's intention in a post.  Even with the little emots. 

I thought Yoshi was pretty cut and dry. Do you teach and train any killing moves in Wing Chun, in your school, does your teacher teach the techniques.  That's all he was asking.  
Sure we all got philosophical and talked about the morality of the actual "act" of killing, but not many actually answered the question. I did a bit, but I haven't been shown alot of specific "killing" moves in WC yet. If folks don't like the topic of the thread, don't get mad and read it and get offended because someone else has a different opinion on these things that you.
That's the world.  A bunch of people running around with different morals, opinions and perspectives on things.  Not a big deal until we all MAKE it a big deal.
Talk about it, learn, disagree, debate, and enjoy the conversation.
Just a thought.  
And, I'm pretty sure this isn't the most hated thread in the history of MT, lol! :angel:
(as I run off down the hall with a pencil up my nose!! harah!)


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 26, 2009)

Si-je. I think it is one of most hated threads...lol..not the most..but one of the most. I mean its funny When people talk about training its mostly just for health or mental reasons. I hear very few people speaking about using their Art outside of the Kwoon. All I hear is moral excuses and legal issues. I mean most of the time in life you don't have to use your art. Unless you live in high crime area an can not afford to move anywhere else. 


But most people live in the county. Out here we don't have the same issues as those in city living. But sometimes I venture to the city to visit family or friends. Now to me some parts of the city where my Brothers and some cousins live. I suggest taking a stap(Firearm). Just a suggestion. Because for one Just the little simple trip from your car to their house can be a big issue. An what if your bus rider. Oh boy all the more reason to train seriously and learn how to hurt,maime and kill with your art. Now its true you do not want to kill anybody. Nor should you want to hurt someone. I mean really. Do people actually think about chain punching just anybody in the face for no reason who doesn't deserve it. No. Lets say someone is talking trash. Do you go chain punching him. No just ignor the idiot and move on. But if someone runs up on you trying to snacth your purse or comp a feel then by all means ladies open up with chain punches and kick to groins. I don't think that is harsh. I feel if someone is bad enough to violate your persons then you should be bad enough to sit them down. 

But many people feel differently. I understand Fighting is a scary thing. But sometimes Fighting is also angry. I am angry that this guy decided to grab my purse or comp a feel of bosom. This is how ladies feel. They don't just get scared they get peed. 


So they should violate that man back in a way he doesn't like. 

As for people have difference of opinions. Some people are not use to their opinions being challenge. Are they feel like they Know something because of all of the years they lived on the earth. Experience does teach you somethings. But also true wisdom comes from heaven.
For instance I don't need to experience smoking crack to be wise enough to not to do it. I know crack cocain is bad so I never touched the stuff. Thats real wisdom Knowing something you have never experience is better than having to go through something horrible like loosing your family,house,car,kids,life savings,and freedom all because you became an alcoholic? No I don't have to live a long life to know not to do those things. I can learn not by example or experience But I can learn reading about it. Also some young people like in their teens know more than us. We may think we know alot but their is always someone smarter,stronger,faster and better than us. Age and Experience doesn't matter. As a matter of fact their are people who are in their fifties who have more experience than men in fighting. Their are also people around 19 or 18 who have more experience in fighting than me? Just because they have more experience doesn't make them more knowledgeable. Some people keep doing the wrong thing every time and never learn from their mistakes. So that person experience is no good to them.

But my post in general will always be taking to offense. Thats how people are. Controversial and Argumentative. You know and I know it so we must except it. People are always looking for war and conflict. It will be that way until the end of human race. We are born to adversity.





Si-Je said:


> I think folks get really knee jerk about alot of topics here sometimes, and it's mainly due to the medium. Being in text you don't have tone of voice, body language, and such to clarify someone's intention in a post. Even with the little emots.
> 
> I thought Yoshi was pretty cut and dry. Do you teach and train any killing moves in Wing Chun, in your school, does your teacher teach the techniques. That's all he was asking.
> Sure we all got philosophical and talked about the morality of the actual "act" of killing, but not many actually answered the question. I did a bit, but I haven't been shown alot of specific "killing" moves in WC yet. If folks don't like the topic of the thread, don't get mad and read it and get offended because someone else has a different opinion on these things that you.
> ...


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 26, 2009)

I would just like to point out that I didn't get offended by the thread, I don't hate neither do I have any strong feelings towards anyone or anything on this forum. I don't think this thread is hated at all. People shared there opinion quite honestly thats it. Don't confuse honesty and directnes with agression and hatred.

Look, the thing is that from my point of view you worried me a bit. On one thread you talk about how you would kill gay people with a spear, on another you say something like what sounded to me that you would kill anyone who would got in a fight with you(I think I quoted you in one of my previous threads) and then you go asking for killing techniques. It just painted a certein picture in my head and I didn't want that people share killing techniques with this guy who as I interpreted it has a lot of hatred and little selfcontrol. Please don't get offended. If you all would now me you would see that I am very direct, straightforward and honest about how I say things but I rearly get emotional(especialy over things like a discusion on a forum). 

I just felt that it should be pointed out that killing shouldn' be take lightley. Thats all. Thats something I strongly belive in and thats why I was very persistant in my posts. But in no way did I intend to come of as agresive or that I hate anyone or anything. Which I don't-at least on this forum for sure. Hate is a very strong word.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 26, 2009)

Oh Eru Iluvatar. For the most part you are very tolerant and calm minded. 


I am thankful for that. But still the fact remains. There are so who are very arrogant and prideful. Not pointing directly at you sir. Sorry if you thought I was pertaining to you. Ha Ha...you spoke up...I won't take time out to make a joke here. But you know that ole saying That if you stand in a crowd and start yelling you are an idiot. Usually the one who says something to you is the one who believes you were talking to them...Lol...I like to do things like that in public sometimes just to see who speaks up. An then i be like the jokes on you buddy.

But anyway off subject. AS for killing gays. I think you took my statement out of context. I simply suggested that according to my spiritual beliefs homosexuals both men and women should be stoned. I may have mention that certain offenses in other parts of the world incur impalement. Which is a great deterent from sexual immorality. But I do not recall anything about taking a pole an striking gays with that. Thats not very effecient. Not in my view point. As for the stoning...that was something a large majority took part in. Not just one single man. 

As for killing techniques. No, I am not suggesting that killing techniques be taught to go out an use on gays. Thats not very bright. Because just because your condition to kill with a phoenix fist or palm strike doesn't mean you will be able to successfully use it on group of people. You may be conquered and killed. I am about whats more effecient. Killing techniques are for self defense. For instance your alone an get attacked. An you have no weapon. But your assialiant or attackers do. Killing Techniques may allow you to defeat your foes or atleast take a few out so you can escape.


AS for gays being killed. I don't think that should be done by a single man. I think any captial punishments should be adminstered by a theocratic government. But this is my beliefs. You seem to bring this issue up alot. I hope my commenting on what you said doesn't give me another negative complaint. I am simply trying to respond honestly and openly. If this is unacceptable than on issues of my beliefs in Yahweh and Torah we will have discussed privately. That way others who read will not be offended. Since sometimes my opinions are offensive to some. An if you want more detail which I left alot out. Please message me.

As for killing taking lightly. I think killing techniques should be undertaking seriously. If i didn't know about certain spots on body that could kill I might have seriously hurt someone when sparring or fighting. Which I am glad I atleast learn some so I can advoid hurting people on accident.

But if I need the techniques I have them.


			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1130962 said:
			
		

> I would just like to point out that I didn't get offended by the thread, I don't hate neither do I have any strong feelings towards anyone or anything on this forum. I don't think this thread is hated at all. People shared there opinion quite honestly thats it. Don't confuse honesty and directnes with agression and hatred.
> 
> Look, the thing is that from my point of view you worried me a bit. On one thread you talk about how you would kill gay people with a spear, on another you say something like what sounded to me that you would kill anyone who would got in a fight with you(I think I quoted you in one of my previous threads) and then you go asking for killing techniques. It just painted a certein picture in my head and I didn't want that people share killing techniques with this guy who as I interpreted it has a lot of hatred and little selfcontrol. Please don't get offended. If you all would now me you would see that I am very direct, straightforward and honest about how I say things but I rearly get emotional(especialy over things like a discusion on a forum).
> 
> I just felt that it should be pointed out that killing shouldn' be take lightley. Thats all. Thats something I strongly belive in and thats why I was very persistant in my posts. But in no way did I intend to come of as agresive or that I hate anyone or anything. Which I don't-at least on this forum for sure. Hate is a very strong word.


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## MJS (Feb 26, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Si-je. I think it is one of most hated threads...lol..not the most..but one of the most. I mean its funny When people talk about training its mostly just for health or mental reasons. I hear very few people speaking about using their Art outside of the Kwoon. All I hear is moral excuses and legal issues. I mean most of the time in life you don't have to use your art. Unless you live in high crime area an can not afford to move anywhere else.
> 
> 
> But most people live in the county. Out here we don't have the same issues as those in city living. But sometimes I venture to the city to visit family or friends. Now to me some parts of the city where my Brothers and some cousins live. I suggest taking a stap(Firearm). Just a suggestion. Because for one Just the little simple trip from your car to their house can be a big issue. An what if your bus rider. Oh boy all the more reason to train seriously and learn how to hurt,maime and kill with your art. Now its true you do not want to kill anybody. Nor should you want to hurt someone. I mean really. Do people actually think about chain punching just anybody in the face for no reason who doesn't deserve it. No. Lets say someone is talking trash. Do you go chain punching him. No just ignor the idiot and move on. But if someone runs up on you trying to snacth your purse or comp a feel then by all means ladies open up with chain punches and kick to groins. I don't think that is harsh. I feel if someone is bad enough to violate your persons then you should be bad enough to sit them down.
> ...


 
Perhaps the reason why you hear about legal issues, is because its something to seriously consider.  As I said in my other post....if you were to seriously injure someone, and what you did, wasn't warranted for what the person did to you, yes, you will most likely have some serious questions to answer.  

If you think that every situation you're going to find yourself in, is going to require you to break someones neck, well, that tells me that you really have no idea at all of what you're talking about, and that you really need to take a 2nd look at your training.  

What you really need to do, is assess the situation presented to you at the time, and base your response off of that.  If the badguy is using deadly force on you, then you'd be more justified in using it, vs. if he simply pushed you.  If you can't find an alternative to a push, other than breaking the guys neck, you don't have a clue about the martial arts.  

Sorry to sound so harsh, but I really don't think you're reading what you're saying here.


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## MJS (Feb 26, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Oh Eru Iluvatar. For the most part you are very tolerant and calm minded.
> 
> 
> I am thankful for that. But still the fact remains. There are so who are very arrogant and prideful. Not pointing directly at you sir. Sorry if you thought I was pertaining to you. Ha Ha...you spoke up...I won't take time out to make a joke here. But you know that ole saying That if you stand in a crowd and start yelling you are an idiot. Usually the one who says something to you is the one who believes you were talking to them...Lol...I like to do things like that in public sometimes just to see who speaks up. An then i be like the jokes on you buddy.
> ...


 
Speaking as a member, not a mod, because I'm involved in this post, but let me offer you a bit of advice here.  I highly suggest, before you find yourself banned from this forum, that you read up on the rules specifically section 1.8 and 1.9.  

I've brought this post to the attention of the other mods on this forum, so rest assure, this post will most likely be addressed. 

Perhaps you should think a little before you post.


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## Glycerine0160 (Feb 26, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yoshiyahu
> 
> I have a Sanda sifu and the version of Sanda I trained was Police/Military it is most certainly made to be incredibly nasty to those you fight and if we are talking Military it certainly is not points sparing. However my sifu never talks of killing he has said only that he will not teach anyone that he does not know or trust because he never wants to be responsible for someone going out and using Sanda to hurt others. He has said Sanda is not the best marital art or the worst it is just a way to quickly learn how to hurt someone very badly. He also takes it incredibly seriously and if he read some of my past posts on Sanda and knew it was me he might stop teaching me since it is not something he ever tells anyone he does not know and trust anything about Sanda nor does he even mention it at all this is part of why I no longer post much on it any longer, out of respect for my sifu and my friend. I am also rather certain that if I was ever to go ask him about killing techniques he would stop teaching me all together.
> 
> ...




Very good read. Sort of put rest in my mind about never fully answered emotions about my instinct to avoid or talk down possible violent situations. I have been in a couple situations since my marital arts training of about 14 months. Each time I chose to "stand down" if you want to call it that. I knew it was the smarter thing, but I couldn't help thinking I should of acted. One time resulted in me trying to break up a fight, got punched (never broke up a fight, wasn't prepared to get hit) and eventually it led to some kid claiming to have a gun. He had his hand in his jacket and was asking me if I had problems. I backed off and told him i was not involved and to pretty much just back off. (all the while I had my hand on my karambit ready if things went into survival mode)  The other situation was 3 drunk idiots from phili in a stair well.

I never start fights and never want to. After contemplating on it now, I think maybe part of me was starving to see could I defend myself if I needed to?  Although, in the possible gun situation I was pretty positive he didn't have a gun and that is why I think I was curious especially cause he was bigger than me. Regardless, I am not one of a violent nature so I would never seek out such a incident.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 26, 2009)

Not to be hostile. But you haven't been reading the post recently...so I guess thats why you feel the way you do. Please read all my post in this thread...wow...just crazy i tell you. I never said every situtation you have to break necks or do other deadly techniques from what ever art you practice. I have given examples on when your in danger that you should used this defenses. One of the examples has to do with if you find yourself with out a gun or other weapon an your attacker or attackers has one. 

Also in certain situtation where you have a large group attacking you. I suggest first shooting them. But if you don't have a gun then use these techniques. But first I would grab something from the ground,house,car, or somewhere near by that has a blunt or sharp object I could use as weapon against a large group of people before trying to tie my self up trying to make someone's neck snap. 

Please read my post earlier concerning what I said before. I never said every situtation constitutes breaking necks. But I did give examples of when not to kill.

People read part of my most and disregard the rest.

Oh I believe the post I sent to Eru Illvatar is on page two...please check it out! It gives more scenarios on when to and not to kill. 

Question someone pushes you why snap their neck?

Some one punches you in the face why kill them?

I mean if you want retribution for the guy hitting you or pushing you and its just you an him. Why not give him a Gan Sau to the Throat Several lighting fast chain punches to Nose. An drop an grab behind his knees an flip him on his head. If your still angry stomp when he is down until he stops moving then run away. No need to snap his neck or push your fingers through his flesh. No need to torque punch him in the heart or back of the head. Why not do the above. A knock out or to render him unconscious gives you time to get away. Also he would think twice about messing with you. If this is some guy your never going to see again. I would simply do the above Gan Sau-chainpunch-flip on head. Why do any more. I mean if he puts of a fight after the Gan Sau an you can get your chainpunches off why not stomp his groin or ball kick him in the groin. Then chain punch to drop. Very effective I think. Why not side step an collasp kick the side of his knees?

I mean you got alot of option. 

You said:"





> I've brought this post to the attention of the other mods on this forum, so rest assure, this post will most likely be addressed.


"


Whats wrong with the post. I instructed him if he wants detain on posistion to privately message me. I also let him know I never said what he implied?



> Originally Posted by *Eru Ilúvatar*
> 
> 
> _I would just like to point out that I didn't get offended by the thread, I don't hate neither do I have any strong feelings towards anyone or anything on this forum. I don't think this thread is hated at all. People shared there opinion quite honestly thats it. Don't confuse honesty and directnes with agression and hatred.
> ...


 
My views of execution are found in Torah. If you are anyone else want to know them we can do outside the thread privately. I have a right to my religious views. If you want to know more about them read Leviticus 18 and 20 for starters. But I don't think my last post warrants any complaints. But Like I told him people always seem to find something wrong with my post. Which in turn are the members.

As for Mod I never said anything about Mods...what I said to Eru illavator



> You seem to bring this issue up alot. I hope my commenting on what you said doesn't give me another negative complaint. I am simply trying to respond honestly and openly. If this is unacceptable than on issues of my beliefs in Yahweh and Torah we will have discussed privately. That way others who read will not be offended. Since sometimes my opinions are offensive to some. An if you want more detail which I left alot out. Please message me.


 

Just answering the man questions. An get this. I didn't even revel I kept it pretty tone down and blain. I didn't even qoute verses the first time nor have I actually publish the actual wording. Simply giving an opinion. An where I stand to correct the whole vigilante comment or belief. Because that I am not. But I am all for a new devised theorcratic government being placed over USA. Where the government under theocratic law Dispenses Justice. Not a sinlge man. But the people! Majority rules!



MJS said:


> Perhaps the reason why you hear about legal issues, is because its something to seriously consider. As I said in my other post....if you were to seriously injure someone, and what you did, wasn't warranted for what the person did to you, yes, you will most likely have some serious questions to answer.
> 
> If you think that every situation you're going to find yourself in, is going to require you to break someones neck, well, that tells me that you really have no idea at all of what you're talking about, and that you really need to take a 2nd look at your training.
> 
> ...


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## MJS (Feb 26, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Not to be hostile. But you haven't been reading the post recently...so I guess thats why you feel the way you do. Please read all my post in this thread...wow...just crazy i tell you. I never said every situtation you have to break necks or do other deadly techniques from what ever art you practice. I have given examples on when your in danger that you should used this defenses. One of the examples has to do with if you find yourself with out a gun or other weapon an your attacker or attackers has one.
> 
> Also in certain situtation where you have a large group attacking you. I suggest first shooting them. But if you don't have a gun then use these techniques. But first I would grab something from the ground,house,car, or somewhere near by that has a blunt or sharp object I could use as weapon against a large group of people before trying to tie my self up trying to make someone's neck snap.
> 
> ...


 
Perhaps you should read a few more sections of the rules.  Here is one: 1.3

*



			1.3 "Freedom of Speech":
		
Click to expand...

*


> MartialTalk is dedicated towards allowing as much freedom in our members communications as we can. However, while we believe very much in the idea of freedom of speech & personal expression, you DO NOT have the absolute right to say whatever you want in this community.





> Anything that goes against our core beliefs and the purpose for which this community was designed may not be allowed.
> 
> Posts and comments that are meant to incite conflicts between members or outside parties are strictly prohibited.
> 
> MartialTalk Staff have the absolute right to view, edit, modify, close or delete any content found in this community. This may include amongst other things the Private Message, Email, Blog and Other communications systems on this site in situations where we have concerns about the conduct of one or more of our members.




Heres another: 4.2.5

*4.2.5 Hate Speech

*Hate speech is not allowed. Posts that contain material that is racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted, or otherwise offensive, are not allowed. While discussion of certain social and political issues may require the use of sensitive or potentially offensive terms, outside of those limited contexts the use of such terms is not allowed on this board.

Those are taken from the rules...the rules that Bob, the owner of the forum, has in place.  I'm not debating them with you.  As for the rest of your post.....well, it, as well as a few others, speak for themselves.

Good day,

Mike


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 26, 2009)

That is great the average person is not prone to violence unless they are drunk,high,depress, angry about life. Then in those situtation they may be prone to violence. But the average person can not stomach hurting another human being. Usually it takes mental and phyiscal conditioning to get there. Some people have child hood trauma or trauma as an adult that makes them numb to violence. But for the most part even that has its boundries. The average person no matter what would have a hard time wanting to test their art out on their moms. No matter how pissed mamma made you last night. Now of course if the three or four things I said above are occuring then a wife may become a victim of domestic violence. But for the Most part people are pretty sensitive to hurting others. I mean just imagine hearing a animal cry from pain like when its get hit by a car an can't move its legs. It really saddens your heart. Now imagine hearing a elderly human being crying in agony and in pain who can not walk. But still feels pain all over their body. Thats enough to bring tears to even a muscle man especially if that elderly person was your father. Imagine hearing your son or daughter crying in pain it brings a hurt to your heart. An If you hurt someone so bad even if they were an enemy you feel badly for them. You feel awful if you beat someone so bad that you made him cry.

The funny thing is morally if we hurt someone phyiscally we are responsible for their recovery. We should try to see they get healed. But in this day an age that law is forgotton.




Glycerine0160 said:


> Very good read. Sort of put rest in my mind about never fully answered emotions about my instinct to avoid or talk down possible violent situations. I have been in a couple situations since my marital arts training of about 14 months. Each time I chose to "stand down" if you want to call it that. I knew it was the smarter thing, but I couldn't help thinking I should of acted. One time resulted in me trying to break up a fight, got punched (never broke up a fight, wasn't prepared to get hit) and eventually it led to some kid claiming to have a gun. He had his hand in his jacket and was asking me if I had problems. I backed off and told him i was not involved and to pretty much just back off. (all the while I had my hand on my karambit ready if things went into survival mode) The other situation was 3 drunk idiots from phili in a stair well.
> 
> I never start fights and never want to. After contemplating on it now, I think maybe part of me was starving to see could I defend myself if I needed to? Although, in the possible gun situation I was pretty positive he didn't have a gun and that is why I think I was curious especially cause he was bigger than me. Regardless, I am not one of a violent nature so I would never seek out such a incident.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 26, 2009)

Yosh with all due respect maybe you should think about the wording you use or the content you are posting.

Your rep power and others telling you differently maybe you should examine their points more. If many people tell you something is incorrect maybe they have a point(just an example) 

Anyhow just something to think about.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 26, 2009)

I am just a different person. I don't fit in with westerner.

I realize me and people don't get along. 


But I feel your concern. 


I just have to accept who I am.

I just wish i could speak to these people in person.

Instead of typing it.

I am beginning not care anymore.




JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Yosh with all due respect maybe you should think about the wording you use or the content you are posting.
> 
> Your rep power and others telling you differently maybe you should examine their points more. If many people tell you something is incorrect maybe they have a point(just an example)
> 
> Anyhow just something to think about.


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## Glycerine0160 (Feb 26, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> I am just a different person. I don't fit in with westerner.
> 
> I realize me and people don't get along.
> 
> ...




Well I am not offended by your speech. I agree its possible you need to be more sensitive. As you mentioned, you wish you could talk to these people in person. Well, that is the problem with online, particularlly forums. If you say something unusual you will not notice until someone scolds you. However, in real life you would notice their facial expressions or eyes disagree with what you are saying and you would know to explain yourself right away. Perhaps your culture or upbringing is slightly different. I personally don't get offended easily and the only reason i would be uncomfortable talking lethal techniques (simply, I don't know any other than the traditional pound, lock, choke)   but as someone mentioned, it could possibly be a legal liability. That is legally. Morally, I would not be concerned because most practitioners of martial arts would not go and utilize any of these things in real life. Hypothetically, even if someone stumbled in here who knows little about martial arts and could potentially be a liability, they would not be able to make use of any of the jargon nor techniques mentioned. *Which brings up a good question. What do instructors do if they have a student who seems like a liability and feels would abuse martial arts? Or do they just try to ignore it?*

Harping back on your own views, they are somewhat strange to me. That is what I find interesting though. You seem more of like a hardened martial artist. I imagine you have used these techniques and have seen some crazy things. I remember somehow I was drunk at my friends dorm and this asian kid came in (this was a short time before I took up martial arts) and started telling me he knew martial arts and starting tell me a story about his uncle in the Philippines who killed an individual. I believe his stories to be true, but that is irrelevant. I'm just saying, you seem like you came from a society more similar to this just going off of all the fighting in your schools.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 26, 2009)

The Reason Why i would want to talk in person. Is because I will tell it more bluntly and boldly. I would speak alot more honestly.

In person no one can be like behind my back i am offensive. If they say something then I can tell them right there an rebuke them to their face. 



Glycerine0160 said:


> Well I am not offended by your speech. I agree its possible you need to be more sensitive. As you mentioned, you wish you could talk to these people in person. Well, that is the problem with online, particularlly forums. If you say something unusual you will not notice until someone scolds you. However, in real life you would notice their facial expressions or eyes disagree with what you are saying and you would know to explain yourself right away. Perhaps your culture or upbringing is slightly different. I personally don't get offended easily and the only reason i would be uncomfortable talking lethal techniques (simply, I don't know any other than the traditional pound, lock, choke) but as someone mentioned, it could possibly be a legal liability. That is legally. Morally, I would not be concerned because most practitioners of martial arts would not go and utilize any of these things in real life. Hypothetically, even if someone stumbled in here who knows little about martial arts and could potentially be a liability, they would not be able to make use of any of the jargon nor techniques mentioned. *Which brings up a good question. What do instructors do if they have a student who seems like a liability and feels would abuse martial arts? Or do they just try to ignore it?*
> 
> Harping back on your own views, they are somewhat strange to me. That is what I find interesting though. You seem more of like a hardened martial artist. I imagine you have used these techniques and have seen some crazy things. I remember somehow I was drunk at my friends dorm and this asian kid came in (this was a short time before I took up martial arts) and started telling me he knew martial arts and starting tell me a story about his uncle in the Philippines who killed an individual. I believe his stories to be true, but that is irrelevant. I'm just saying, you seem like you came from a society more similar to this just going off of all the fighting in your schools.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 26, 2009)

What ever dude.




MJS said:


> Perhaps you should read a few more sections of the rules. Here is one: 1.3
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 26, 2009)

*Admin Note:*
Yoshiyahu is no longer a member of this site.


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## skinters (Feb 27, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> *Admin Note:*
> Yoshiyahu is no longer a member of this site.



well the mob got what they wanted,shame.


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## skinters (Feb 27, 2009)

bob,

i feel you was maybe a bit harsh with your ban of Yoshiyahu.i agree that the things he said was not right,and i know you have to set an example.

since he arrived on the wingchun forum,nobody quite knew what to do with him,his way of thinking,was strange and almost eccentric,but his knowlegde was more than the whole of the wingchun forum combined.

i  often sat reading his posts and wondered what kind of person was behind them,and in doing this,i kind of looked at his posts as just being misguided,with no reall reason to suggest he was out to cause trouble.he was certaintly not shy in saying exactly what he felt,which was to me quite refreshing,in a world that can on times be overly correct.       

i can see you had no really choice in your descision,and would have maybe thought you considering a formal warning and a deleting of his post,other than an outright ban.

regards.


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## MJS (Feb 27, 2009)

We probably should not let this thread turn into a discussion on why a member was removed, but I will say this, and hopefully we can get back to the thread at hand, for those who find it worth discussing.

While I will not go into specifics surrounding the removal of his account, let me say this...the recent posts were not the sole reason behind the removal.  

That is all I'm saying.  If anyone has any further questions, please feel free to contact an Admin.  The forum Admins are as follows:

MJS (myself)
Shesulsa
Brian Van Cise
Bob Hubbard

So, back to the thread.


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## shesulsa (Feb 27, 2009)

Note:

We make it a policy to not discuss the specifics to any contact with nor actions taken upon any user.  We also do not ban people at whim.  We have a defined process and it was followed.

Let's return to the topic, please.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator


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## skinters (Feb 27, 2009)

> We probably should not let this thread turn into a discussion on why a member was removed, but I will say this, and hopefully we can get back to the thread at hand, for those who find it worth discussing.



my post to bob,was not aimed at starting a discussion,and was more of a half hearted plea to what i felt was not right ,it is not worth commenting on it no more.no worries.  



> We also do not ban people at whim.  We have a defined process and it was followed.



i would like to say my post to bob was not as any reference to a decision maybe being made on a whim,i agree that is not the case.

as for the continuation of the thread i kinda feel this has knocked the guts out of it,and would rather see it carry on in the vain  in which it ended,and have it closed.


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## bs10927 (Feb 27, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> I am just a different person. I don't fit in with westerner.
> 
> I realize me and people don't get along.
> 
> ...



where are you from?  just curious since you're not from the West.


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## bs10927 (Feb 27, 2009)

forget my question.i'm a little late.


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## shesulsa (Feb 28, 2009)

skinters said:


> my post to bob,was not aimed at starting a discussion,and was more of a half hearted plea to what i felt was not right ,it is not worth commenting on it no more.no worries.



The point here is this; almost all decisions on this board are made as a team which is why some of the team has addressed your post.  If you feel very strongly about this issue, please send an email to adminteam@martialtalk.com and we'll be happy to discuss it further with you via a more appropriate venue.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator


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## skinters (Feb 28, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> please send an email to adminteam@martialtalk.com and we'll be happy to discuss it further with you via a more appropriate venue.





shesulsa said:


> We make it a policy to not discuss the specifics to any contact with nor actions taken upon any user



well,it is quite obvious to me that discussing this any further,would be impossible if the quotes above are anything to go by.

whats done is done.and i have no interest of watering the ground.


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## The Last Legionary (Feb 28, 2009)

The staff here is pretty fair, says the guy who just got a 2 week vacation for confusing someone else with the worthless piece of garbage in question here. If they decided to toss him out on his hate mongering worthless ***, then they mut have a good reason. Of course they aren't going to list the play by play. Never have, never will. 

I would hazard a guess that the piece of gutter trash was tossed because he had this fixation on killing gays, couldn't keep his yap shut about it, and apparently told the mods to piss off.  I don't care how good his art knowledge is, that's not who I'd want in my school or plce of business, and certainly wouldn't want on my own site, if I had one. 

Honestly, what reply do you expect?
"We just tossed him cuz we be bullies."?
"We felt like it."

Now, lets all let this drop, and go back to discussing how an art that's about as exciting as watching paint dry has lethal techniques in it.  My last WC class almost killed me.  SLT. I almost died of boredom!  

No, I kid.  I like WC, especially for smaller more agile people who can get in, strike, and get out. If I want to oooh and aaaah, I'll watch a TKD competition with the fancy kicks.


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## Tez3 (Feb 28, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Not to be hostile. But you haven't been reading the post recently...so I guess thats why you feel the way you do. Please read all my post in this thread...wow...just crazy i tell you. I never said every situtation you have to break necks or do other deadly techniques from what ever art you practice. I have given examples on when your in danger that you should used this defenses. One of the examples has to do with if you find yourself with out a gun or other weapon an your attacker or attackers has one.
> 
> Also in certain situtation where you have a large group attacking you. I suggest first shooting them. But if you don't have a gun then use these techniques. But first I would grab something from the ground,house,car, or somewhere near by that has a blunt or sharp object I could use as weapon against a large group of people before trying to tie my self up trying to make someone's neck snap.
> 
> ...


 

Can I point out please that the references to the Torah in this post are purely the view of this (ex) poster. He has referenced Levititicus in the Christian way of refering to finding verses etc not the Jewish way. Despite the signs proclaiming he was Jewish, he's not and all views were entirely his not that of the Jewish people!

I go with the idea the thread should be closed.


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## skinters (Feb 28, 2009)

[the legend said:
			
		

> Now, lets all let this drop, []



seems like you dont want to.


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## skinters (Feb 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Can I point out please that the references to the Torah in this post are purely the view of this (ex) poster. He has referenced Levititicus in the Christian way of refering to finding verses etc not the Jewish way. Despite the signs proclaiming he was Jewish, he's not and all views were entirely his not that of the Jewish people!
> 
> I go with the idea the thread should be closed.



i thought there was not going to be any more discussion with this ?

thanks for going with the idea of it being closed.


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## Tez3 (Feb 28, 2009)

skinters said:


> i thought there was not going to be any more discussion with this ?
> 
> thanks for going with the idea of it being closed.


 

My post wasn't a point for discussion. It was a disclaimer distancing myself and my people from the views of that poster.

Your sarcastic thanks is noted.


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## skinters (Feb 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> My post wasn't a point for discussion. It was a disclaimer distancing myself and my people from the views of that poster.
> 
> Your sarcastic thanks is noted.



tez,no sarcasm intended,i am just replying as is.my thanks is genuine as i had hope the thread be closed considering the way it turned out.

also my original post to bob was not an attempt at discussion as i said in a later post.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 28, 2009)

*Thread Closed.* 

If anything concerning Wing Chun needs to be addressed, please feel free to pick it up by starting a new discussion.

Thank you.


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