# Pay for your BJJ Certification



## Turbo (Dec 31, 2004)

Look at this crap!!!  

http://www.geocities.com/beltcertify/


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## SammyB57 (Jan 1, 2005)

All I have to say is....

1) apply for a black belt and pay for it.
2) enter a major tournament at black belt level
3) get pwned.

Belts are just something to hold your pants up. In BJJ especially, it's all about skills. I think it would be something similar to this....

White = Junior High
Blue = High School
Purple = College
Brown = Master's
Black = Doctorate

On the mat, it's not hard to distinguish where someone's grappling skills are.


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## The Prof (Jan 1, 2005)

This sad charade has been played out for years by various individuals.  What's even sadder is that some fool will pay the price for the belt and his students may pay the price with their lives.

Prof. Rick Riccardi
www.niseido.org


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## The Prof (Jan 1, 2005)

SammyB57 hit the nail square on the head.  Great post Sammy!


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## Aaron Little (Jan 1, 2005)

Wonderful.  Just wonderful.


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## Simon Curran (Jan 1, 2005)

Hmmm,

kinda makes you wonder why the rest of us bother studying and earning rank...


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## tmonis (Jan 1, 2005)

This goes back to my earlier thread on Fraud. This is actually what I was talking about on that one. I feel your pain on this. And what even makes it worse then that is, There are some really Famous Martial Artist doing it...Selling out just for a buck or two. Master Ibrao (5 Forms to Black Belt) Fred Villari, Larry Tatum, International Kenpo Karate Connection....on and on and on.

Video Testing!!! But our tapes for X number of dollars $$$$....Learn the material....Send us a video tape...And we will make you a Black Belt in 2 months....All for just one low price of $395.99....lol

And this does not even count the number of people who are not famous doing it. Just like this website, there are alot of them out there that you can just pay a fee to get your Black Belt...Then they buy these things...open up shop somewhere and start teaching...Next thing you know is the students are getting hurt in real life on the street...The Fraud Instructor turns it all around and tells them...You must not have practiced good enough because my stuff works...

Prof. Todd:idunno:


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## The Prof (Jan 1, 2005)

Prof. Todd,

Since you obviously have a quite a bit of MA seniority, I am sure that over the decades you have seen plenty.  What amazes me is that just when I think that I have seen it all, "a brand new one" emerges.

You mentioned Fred Villari, well he lives not too far from me.  His schools in the South Flroida ares were all over the place.  Almost all have closed down.  There may be just one or possibly two still out there.

When I moved her 18 years ago, I visited one of the schools that was in the area.  It was sad to say the least.  But guess what, the guy is a millionaire.

I don't blame him for doing what ever he had to do to support his family,  it's just too bad that many people paid for something that they really cannot use.

You, me and thousands of others could not do it that way.  But then, that's us.  Thanks for your post, I 100% agree with you. It was honest and to the point.  Happy New Year!

Prof


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## BC99 (Jan 1, 2005)

The difference is:  In Brazilian Jiu JItsu, if you say you are a Black Belt - someone will certainly try you on.


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## Aaron Little (Jan 1, 2005)

Yes, it is rather easy to pick out the fraudulent BJJ coaches.  Just ask them to roll.


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## tmonis (Jan 1, 2005)

Prof.

You are totally right. I have seen more than my share. And all of them are laughing at me right to the bank. My hats off to them all who are able to do it. I had 2 commerical schools along time ago and found it to be one heck of a chore. 

I would never take anything away from Mr. Villari because he is an awesome Martial Artist. However not being able to control all of his schools. Somewhere along the way it all got watered down and most of them closed.

The problem I have with the whole video testing / paying for a Black Belt thing is it gives people a false since of security. And it makes the whole thing not as creditable. You and I and many others have worked long and hard to achieve our goals. 

But the real truth comes on the mat. The Belt really does not matter.

All of you have a great and wonderful New Year.:asian: 

Prof. Todd


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## Shogun (Jan 2, 2005)

Yeah, in BJJ, sparring can solve everything. if someone doesnt know what they are doing, then there ya go.

But what if they have years of BJJ and/or wrestling, sambo etc training. then they may not be a black belt at heart, but they can at least hold there own.

as far as Video study.....I have used video study on many occasions, as well as going to several schools, and can honestly say there is no way someone with no experience in a school can pick up on these things. I think they may be able to work (and do work), IF what they are learning on the tape is the same as what they are learning in the dojo (supplements) and the Dojo teacher says they are learning it correct....OR....they travel frequently to the location of the tape teacher, and learn the material firsthand. I have used several HSC to supplement my training, and if I had not studied in a dojo first.... I would be completely lost.

with that being said there are many fraudulant and under qualified Dojos out there. Plus, I dont think studying a tape is getting people hurt. they would have got hurt had they not studied thetape anyway. unless they are picking the fights......and then.....cant help them there.


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## Shogun (Jan 2, 2005)

sorry to 2X post but this is a article from jiujitsu.net

*



			<H2>Why I Love America
		
Click to expand...

*


> So I'm sitting here puzzled over what my next column is going to be about only hours away from deadline, when all of a sudden I check my inbox and find the single most disturbing email I've ever seen (besides that one with the donkey and the...). The International Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Vale Tudo Association (IBJVTA) is offering the belt of your choice, along with a certificate stating that you actually are at the level you claim to be for the excellent price of somewhere between one and two hundred forty seven dollars. This means that you too can get your black belt using the good old "honor system" without ever having to dirty up a mat! If you'd like instructor certification you can get that for a mere $217.00 and if you want to fight vale tudo, just mail in the same amount and a handy dandy slip of paper that says you're qualified will show up in your mailbox! Naturally at the bottom of the application/advertisement is a disclaimer saying you release the IBJVTA from any and all responsibility should you, oh say choke someone to death after holding onto a triangle for too long, or in the event that you cripple a few small children by not letting go of your kneebars in time. If you want an extra copy of your instructor's certificate to put on your girlfriend's wall, you can purchase one for a scant twenty five smackers and everyone who comes over for a round of "behind the black belt's back" will be forced to stop and wonder if they aren't taking their lives in their hands.
> 
> To say this is absurd would be redundant. In my six years fiddling around with guys on mats and watching dudes in speedoes pound the crap out of each other, I've never heard of something so potentially destructive to our sport. I don't know exactly who this IBJVTA is, but if times are that tough in the BJJ community that we have to start handing out belts to amateurs to make ends meet, maybe we need to start a social security program. Let me urge you to email these shysters and tell them what a bunch of scum sucking bastards they are by providing their email address. Naturally they have no website because public advertisement of this nonsense would probably result in a lawsuit from Carlos Gracie Jr. The email address is BRAZIL_ARTS@yahoo.com. Write your friends, instructors and cousins and tell them to overload these jerks inbox with hate mail for trying to tarnish our sport.
> 
> ...


 </H2>


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## grappling_mandala (Jan 3, 2005)

If only it were that easy.


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## MJS (Jan 3, 2005)

Its really a shame what some people will do to make a buck! :angry: 

Rather than work your butt off, with lots of sweat and mat time, people take the dishonest route and offer things like this.

Whats even worse, is that people actually give their hard earned money to fakes that offer this kind of garbage.

Mike


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 3, 2005)

There was a time when there was only one place to get your BJJ: Torrance. Rank was easy to determine...level of expertise. If you could roll with the purples, the Gracie's would throw you a purple and say, "Here...wear this now". If you walked in wearing a purple and got tapped by a white, you either changed belts, or got laughed out of the academy.

Couple years later, there were still only about a dozen BJJ locations. Still easy to determine skill, because the inter-school competition was intense enough, that nobody wanted to be known as "the purple belt from XXX academy who got choked out by the blue belt from YYY academy."  There were predictable differences in the levels of skill. I can remember being one of maybe three people in Huntington Beach who had a clue about BJJ; now there are several schools/clubs (some better than others), and just about every surf-punk on Main Street has some BJJ/Vale Tudo experience. 

I remember one BJJ tournament at the Bren Events Center in Irvine, in which Wally Jay was in attendance, Rickson was hanging out, Machado Bros. kimono's were floating ni the crowd, Alan Goes was limping around on his ankle, and Carlos Jr. had flown up a bunch of his guys from Brtazil...a BJJ guy who (then, anyways) was percieved as having bought his rank was enrolling students in the competition. Everytime one of their names/school was announced, a resounding "Boooo" filled the building. That particular guy eventually went on to ally himself with some quality players/names, and turned out some MMA/NHB winners, earning his place among the "real". 

The only reason quality controls worked was because the community was small, and self-policing. Now, BJJ has grown immensely, and is beyond the reach of this simple "everybody knows everybody" quality management style. Now, the machine is full of puffs who learn a couple of dismounts, a submission or two, and declare themselves instructors. I guess now the puffs have someplace to ratify their meager rankings.

I have a buddy I trained with from the early days; by old school definitions, he was white-to-blue with one of Rickson's old cribs (seasoned white belt, easily tapping the blue belts, but not showing up steadily enough to warrant a promotion). He was in Colorado recently at a seminar with people from around the globe, got called out by a brown belt in BJJ (from come guy with a Portugese name neither of us had heard before), and proceeded to own the guys hide in the snow banks of Colorado Springs. After losing the 2nd in a row of a "best 2/3" round, being man-handled easily, the brown belt stared at the ground in disbelief that he had been beaten by an older, out-of-shape white belt who hadn't been on the mat for years, while he -- a brown belt -- was an asst. instructor in his own school.  Something to be said about the quality of the pre-McBjj dojo days?  I think so.  Something in there too about honoring the old ways of determining rank in BJJ via how well you do on the mat.

Regards,

Dave


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## Shogun (Jan 3, 2005)

I say if your gonna do BJJ, find someone good. it is easy to determine. Pedro Sauer BJJ is one of my main arts now but there was a time when I hated all BJJ and everyone associated. It seemed all BJJ guys had three problems:
1. they couldnt recognize the value of other arts
2. refused to recognize that other Jujutsu styles came before them.
3. Non-Bjj guys could tap BJJ guys w/o Bjj training


regards,
Kyle


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## getgoin (Jan 4, 2005)

It was only a matter of time till it happened.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 4, 2005)

getgoin said:
			
		

> It was only a matter of time till it happened.


True, and still sad.

D.


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## gusano (Jan 5, 2005)

It is without a doubt pathetic. Whats even more pathetic is that the reason these scams are able to be perpetrated is because most Americans would rather buy something than earn it! There are ALOT of non qualified "instructors" teaching "submission grappling" without credentials, fake or otherwise. I have an official Carlson Gracie Academy in Jamestown, NY. There is absoloutely NOTHING legitimate around here beside my academy yet I still only have 10 students!
There are MANY guys who teach a "grappling" class on Saturday here and there as well as "mixed martial arts coaches" who teach "submissions" that won't let me anywhere near their dojo. WHY?????? Because these people are not interested in legitamacy. They want to be the big fish in their small pond and not be exposed in front of their students as the charlatans that they are.
Its EASY to convince people that you are a blackbelt if they have no previous exposure to grappling. These guys often sport blackbelts and nobody is the wiser. I only have a purple belt from Carlson Gracie Sr HIMSELF, and most people would rather train under someone (anyone) with a blackbelt. WTF is wrong with Americans? Then they set up these bogus organizations to make each other bonafide and laugh all the way to the bank. They got it covered from every angle getting paid at every turn!!! Shrewd business men but couldn't hang with a REAL bluebelt!!!


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## cashwo (Jan 5, 2005)

My grandpa tells this joke all the time and I will share it here:

I was signed up for the Charles Atlas Muscle Course. After taking the course I decided to write a letter to him.

Dear Mr. Atlas,

Took course...please send muscles.

Thanks.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 5, 2005)

gusano said:
			
		

> It is without a doubt pathetic. Whats even more pathetic is that the reason these scams are able to be perpetrated is because most Americans would rather buy something than earn it! There are ALOT of non qualified "instructors" teaching "submission grappling" without credentials, fake or otherwise. I have an official Carlson Gracie Academy in Jamestown, NY. There is absoloutely NOTHING legitimate around here beside my academy yet I still only have 10 students!
> There are MANY guys who teach a "grappling" class on Saturday here and there as well as "mixed martial arts coaches" who teach "submissions" that won't let me anywhere near their dojo. WHY?????? Because these people are not interested in legitamacy. They want to be the big fish in their small pond and not be exposed in front of their students as the charlatans that they are.
> Its EASY to convince people that you are a blackbelt if they have no previous exposure to grappling. These guys often sport blackbelts and nobody is the wiser. I only have a purple belt from Carlson Gracie Sr HIMSELF, and most people would rather train under someone (anyone) with a blackbelt. WTF is wrong with Americans? Then they set up these bogus organizations to make each other bonafide and laugh all the way to the bank. They got it covered from every angle getting paid at every turn!!! Shrewd business men but couldn't hang with a REAL bluebelt!!!



Gusano, you seem to have  a lot of built up frustration. You have some validity but your really only half right and maybe I'm being generous there. 

A BJJ blue belt is not that great. Good but far from great. You're able to teach but really you're status is a coach too. You have 10 students as a purple belt, that is great especially considering the amount of money that is paid for BJJ.

In todays martial art world only the ignorant ones are not incorporating other arts. Grappling has been found to be an art that is needed but it by far is not complete by itself.

And BJJ is about "getting paid", you just need to be more patient, you're on the right track.

I do give you props for training under Carlson Sr. But I have news for you, some of the Gracies are guilty too. Why don't you ask Carlson Sr. or Jr. if you see them about Carlson Gracie Jr.'s "International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation?"  

It was a totally bogus home study course. They new that nodody could "teach themselves to blue belt level" within 6 months. Yet after 6 months they sent out letters to the Federation members telling them of their choice of 2 test dates *AND THE TEST FEE WAS $1995.00.*

I **** you not. I wouldn't sweat the simple stuff, you're doing OK.


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## gusano (Jan 5, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> Gusano, you seem to have a lot of built up frustration. You have some validity but your really only half right and maybe I'm being generous there.
> 
> A BJJ blue belt is not that great. Good but far from great. You're able to teach but really you're status is a coach too. You have 10 students as a purple belt, that is great especially considering the amount of money that is paid for BJJ.
> 
> ...


I may indeed have some built up frustration but you seem to be a pompous prick. I have no knowledge of Jr.s business affairs as Carlson Sr is my professor. His association is called the "Liga Carioca de Jiu-Jitsu". I spend two weeks of every month living and training with Sr in Chicago. Jr is rarely there as he is busy doing seminars the world over. I know this much....Sr and Jr are not businessmen. They are professors of jiu-jitsu period. People have taken advantage of them and others using their name but I know that neither sells belts. Both are humble, honest, and generous to a fault. Thnaks for your words of approval and encouragement.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 5, 2005)

gusano said:
			
		

> you seem to be a pompous prick.  Thnaks for your words of approval and encouragement.



Back at ya my friend. :uhyeah: 

You really should mellow a bit. If somebody tells you something real and hits close to home, just "roll with the punches," no big thing.

I only told you what I did because even the 'best of them" have skeletons in their closet and I was one of them that they scammed in 1997. 

But goods things do happen and that same year I began training in 1 of Joe Moreiras schools. 

I don't doubt that they are humble. That is quite common of those from Brasil and Joe Moreira is as humble as they come.


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## MJS (Jan 5, 2005)

Gentlemen-

PLEASE keep the discussion at a friendly and respectful level.  If you're having a problem with someone, use the features that are provided here.

1- PM

2- Email

3- Ignore

4- RTM

Thank you

Mike


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## Michael Billings (Jan 5, 2005)

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

  -Michael Billings
  -MT S-Moderator


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 5, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> Back at ya my friend. :uhyeah:
> 
> You really should mellow a bit. If somebody tells you something real and hits close to home, just "roll with the punches," no big thing.
> 
> ...


All martial arts will have guys in it for the buck. In kenpo, we have the whole IKCA train and that Chief Red Butt clown. In BJJ, we have guys like Reylson Gracie, a cousin of the GJJ fad initiators who was in Newport Beach for years, charging exhorbitant fees for classes that instructed basics, but never really challenged students to perform under duress. I remember when he got off the plane, and showed up at Phil Halls in Westminster, CA, looking for some mats to buy for his new place. He also had a rep for two other distinctions:

1. If you got a solid blue belt or purple under one of the Gracies or Machado's, you could go learn from...and teach for..him for a brief time, and walk out a certified black belt in BJJ, signed by a Gracie (hot commodity in the early days). Couple of white boys who got tired of the Gracie politics took this route; would bail from Torrance, Santa Monica, or other locations, and sign up in Newport Beach. For years, many in the BJJ community refused to take them seriously, as they took the easy way out, versus staying the course with their original instructors until completion. Many have since demonstrated their sincerity through hard work and staying power, and are more accepted by the Brazilians.

2. If you were fresh up from Brazil, and needed a job, he would give you one, and slave-labor the heck out of you. First time I met Joe was when he was the FOB that Reylson had working for him. I was very happy for Joe when he started his own gig; he remains a hard-working player who can hold his head honorably, and a nice guy in a competitive field with lots of ill intentions and bad blood.

I think he moved to Nevada several years ago. For all I know, it's one of his own starting this whole "send me cash; I'll send you cert" thing. Rings consistent with his previous reputation and MO.

D.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 5, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> All martial arts will have guys in it for the buck. In kenpo, we have the whole IKCA train and that Chief Red Butt clown. In BJJ, we have guys like Reylson Gracie, a cousin of the GJJ fad initiators who was in Newport Beach for years, charging exhorbitant fees for classes that instructed basics, but never really challenged students to perform under duress. I remember when he got off the plane, and showed up at Phil Halls in Westminster, CA, looking for some mats to buy for his new place. He also had a rep for two other distinctions:
> 
> 1. If you got a solid blue belt or purple under one of the Gracies or Machado's, you could go learn from...and teach for..him for a brief time, and walk out a certified black belt in BJJ, signed by a Gracie (hot commodity in the early days). Couple of white boys who got tired of the Gracie politics took this route; would bail from Torrance, Santa Monica, or other locations, and sign up in Newport Beach. For years, many in the BJJ community refused to take them seriously, as they took the easy way out, versus staying the course with their original instructors until completion. Many have since demonstrated their sincerity through hard work and staying power, and are more accepted by the Brazilians.
> 
> ...


I knew Reylson was Joes Instructor but according to Reylson's site he does not certify. Maybe a smoke-sceen to cover up some tracks?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 5, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> I knew Reylson was Joes Instructor but according to Reylson's site he does not certify. Maybe a smoke-sceen to cover up some tracks?


Likely, considering his history of otherwise-known stuff about the guy.

D.


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## gusano (Jan 5, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> Back at ya my friend. :uhyeah:
> 
> You really should mellow a bit. If somebody tells you something real and hits close to home, just "roll with the punches," no big thing.
> 
> *I only told you what I did because even the 'best of them" have skeletons in their closet and I was one of them that they scammed in 1997*.


AHH, so that explains YOUR reaction to MY original post. Because YOU are one of the people who makes it possible for people to perpetuate fraud by awarding bogus credentials. I guess it is you who should just "roll with the punches", no big thing eh? If people weren't so willing to pay money instead of earning their credentials and actually meritting them, then people would not be able to sell their wares as easily as they do. It is rampant in martial arts in general. This organization we are discussing doesn't necessarily belong to real bjj people. It could be some shrewd american who has never even set foot on the mat before, who is simply cashing in on lazy people with extra income. If you want to call out Carlson Gracie Jr as a scam artist or seller of belts, then speak up and be heard, but you better be able to prove that he is what you say he is. I do not know one person in the ENTIRE BJJ community who has ONE negative thing to say about Jr.


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## Michael Billings (Jan 6, 2005)

Ignoring a Moderator's warning is not acceptable on MartialTalk and in this case led to a suspension.  This was done by the Admin Team upon review of this thread.

 -Michael


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 6, 2005)

Out of curiosity, when someone lays down a glove, how best might one respond to it? I know PM has been mentioned, but in some instances that leaves clever slights or pot-shots unaddressed. I've seen some obvious sniping go generally ignored, while other "justifiable(?)" sniping lead to suspensions.

How might we, as participants, respond appropriately in such a way that allows us to defend what we may view as the integrity of our position, without inviting disciplinary actions?  (some people in various threads have said dense things, which seemed to warrant blunt and plain replies to that effect). I mean this respectfully, as I legitimately do not know (what an appropriate, but terse, reply should look like), and would like to help myself -- and fellow MT-ers -- avoid unecessary reprimands in the future.

Sincerely,

Dave Crouch


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## MJS (Jan 6, 2005)

Hi Dave-

As I had mentioned in my post, there are a few options to take.  I had suggested the Email and PM feature, so as to keep the discussions on the main board as civil as possible.  Granted, this is not the end all-be all solution, as it can continue via those methods.  Using the Ignore feature will prevent you from seeing anything that is posted by the person you ignored.  As always, contacting one of the Mods. or using the RTM feature is another option.

Mike


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