# So, a brown belt walks in to your school...



## Carol (Dec 8, 2008)

A friend of mine is an assistant instructor at a small school.  She just ran in to a situation that may make for some good discussion.  

A brown belt walks in to your school......and says that he's new in town, and wants to join up.

You do whatever it is that you that you do with prospective students that have a bit of experience....orientation, perhaps a few private lessons, a week or two of classes.  He's seems like a decent enough guy. Everything about taking him on as a student seems good.

Until...you see him on the mat, and you notice that there is a big difference between him and your own brown belts.  There are some techniques that he does differently than the way your brown belts do them.  He can step through a form, but doesn't have the knowledge that your brown belts have.  He doesn't move as cleanly and as confidently as your brown belts do.  He doesn't have what it takes to be one of YOUR brown belts.

What would your approach be?


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## exile (Dec 8, 2008)

What would _I_ do?

I'd keep him at brown belt till he comes up to speed. Tell him something like, we have a certain way of doing things here, my own brown belts don't advance till they've got it right, so if you want to be part of our school, the same constraints apply. You don't demote him; you just keep him at rank till he has retrained up to your standards. My own sense is, that's the most constructive way to handle the situation, the way that keeps everyone's integrity intact.


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## MJS (Dec 8, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> A friend of mine is an assistant instructor at a small school. She just ran in to a situation that may make for some good discussion.
> 
> A brown belt walks in to your school......and says that he's new in town, and wants to join up.
> 
> ...


 
Upon first glance at this, the first thing that came to my mind is that this brown belt is a video student, who purchased a belt and is trying to fool the school owner into actually believing that he has some skill.  Then again, maybe he was fast tracked in his last school.  Maybe he was given this belt when in reality he didn't deserve it, but the last teacher cared more about making a buck instead of the quality of the student.

Of course if we assume that is not the case, I think the first question that is IMO pretty common would be to inquire as to who this person trained with.  

So, what would I do?  Just what I said in my last paragraph...ask about his training history.  Did this person come from a school that taught similar material?  Ie: Tatum and Palanzo both teach Parker Kenpo, yet execution of each tech. may vary.  I would certainly not promote him until he was brown belt material, and frankly, he should be in a beginner class until he gets up to speed, even if he is wearing a brown belt.


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## stickarts (Dec 9, 2008)

If the student comes from the same, or very similar, style as us I allow them to wear their belt however I let them know they cannot advance further until they come up to speed on our curriculum and are operating at that level. I always get a students backround before they take a class and I can usually tell pretty quickly if something seems suspicious. 
If they come from a different style they need to start at white belt in our system.
I meet privately with the student and go over the expectations and discuss options on how we can help him / her progress.


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## KempoGuy06 (Dec 9, 2008)

i agree with all the above. exile, MJS and stickarts all gave very good responses

B


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 9, 2008)

We actually had this happen in our school not too long ago.  We had an individual come in as a brown belt under a pretty shady instructor.  So our GM didnt even let him wear a belt for 6 months.  After that 6 month probationary period was over he brought him down two belt ranks to a blue belt.


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## terryl965 (Dec 9, 2008)

Easy explain the stituation and what I need for him to be what my school consider a Brown belt and let the chips fall as they might


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## Twin Fist (Dec 9, 2008)

let him wear his belt. Wether he is good enough or not isnt your call. He earned it from someone, so let him wear it.

BUT

warn him that if he spars wearing it, that your browns will fight him at brown belt level.

dont test him till he is good enough to pass your test.

this is not a complicated situation. I have not only been that guy, but i have known that guy too.


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## Blindside (Dec 9, 2008)

A student isn't one of "mine" until I promote them.  I'd be perfectly happy letting him keep his belt, but he wouldn't wear any of my school insignia, and he wouldn't teach for me even though a brown belt would normally be an assistant instructor.  I've seen two things happen with this, one is that the person quits fairly quickly as they realize their old belt isn't really that high a level, or two, that they take off the brown, put on a white and start over.  

I've worked out at several schools for an extended period of time, without ever having an intention of promoting under that instructor.  They did the same thing, I wore a plain uniform and did not attempt to instruct their material, it seemed to work out fairly well.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 9, 2008)

if he puts on your patch he needs to meet your standards.

If he wears his old patch let him wear the brown belt until he is ready to test for one in your school and then he puts on your patch and the belt


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## DavidCC (Dec 9, 2008)

maybe becasue our shcool is smaller (<50 adults), I think we would sign him up, patch him over, and just let him know that he has some catching-up to do before he get spromoted again.  Maybe tell the others at his rank the same thing.  I don't see any reason to make him feel excluded or second-class.  If he's a faker, we'll know soon enough.  If his previous school just wasn't that good, he'll get caught up...


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## 14 Kempo (Dec 9, 2008)

We have this very situation, we honor the rank that was earned. We have many students that are coming over from a previous style that is very similar than ours. Our requirements are different. They where the rank earned, they wear our patch, they know that they need to make adjustments to get up to speed.

I might look at this differently if we had people coming over from an art that was completely different from ours. However, you've got to figure if a person is at the level of brown or black belt in any style, they know something, they aren't coming in with no experience. They may not know how you do things, but they do know something.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2008)

In a way, this was me.

I had trained in Tracy kenpo many years ago and reached shodan.  Then I drifted away from it for many years, while I trained in other, non-kenpo methods.  A couple years ago I decided to return to my roots and see if I could retrain in my kenpo.  I still remembered a lot, but I had also forgotten a lot, and at best I was very rusty with it.  

So I found a very senior level instructor in Tracys, far senior to my first teachers, and began training with him.  I was honest about my situation, and told him that I wanted to start over with it, from the ground up.

I even tried to put on a white belt, but he wouldn't allow that.  He felt that I had earned my shodan, and I needed to keep that.  But in the meantime, I would completely relearn it all.  So I did.  I was able to progress fairly quickly because it was all very familiar, but I learned it all over again, and not long ago I re-tested for shodan with him.  That was my choice, he did not mandate that I re-test for shodan.  But under the circumstances, I felt it was absolutely appropriate, so I did it.  Now I am shodan under him, and am continuing my training forward.

I think given the circumstances, unless he comes from a VERY different kenpo system, it's OK to let him keep his belt.  Just retrain him and go from there.  No new material, no further ranking, until he is up to standard for the rank that he walked in with.

A friend of mine used to train with John Sepulveda, and he did the same thing.  If a student earned rank with a different kenpo system, John would let him keep his belt, but he retrained up thru John's school in the meantime.


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## pete (Dec 9, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> A friend of mine is an assistant instructor at a small school. She just ran in to a situation that may make for some good discussion.
> 
> A brown belt walks in to your school......and says that he's new in town, and wants to join up.
> 
> ...


 
Teach him.


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 9, 2008)

Easy....bring them up to the same level as the rest before moving forward. 

Next question!


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## Carol (Dec 9, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> Easy....bring them up to the same level as the rest before moving forward.
> 
> Next question!



Next question is.....well....MJS mentioned that a student that fits this description may have been studying via video or some other dubious means. 

I'm curious...would you do anything differently if you felt the guy was a fake?


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> Next question is.....well....MJS mentioned that a student that fits this description may have been studying via video or some other dubious means.
> 
> I'm curious...would you do anything differently if you felt the guy was a fake?


 
What does it matter?  He's come into your school to learn, so teach him.


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## Blindside (Dec 9, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> Next question is.....well....MJS mentioned that a student that fits this description may have been studying via video or some other dubious means.
> 
> I'm curious...would you do anything differently if you felt the guy was a fake?


 
Fakes don't hang around very long when the orange belts are over in the corner arguing about who gets to take the brown belt first when its sparring night.  And it they do, they will learn.


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## MJS (Dec 9, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> Next question is.....well....MJS mentioned that a student that fits this description may have been studying via video or some other dubious means.
> 
> I'm curious...would you do anything differently if you felt the guy was a fake?


 
John Bishop has this great quote, something along the lines of, "Time will either promote you or expose you."  That is soooo true.  If in fact he was a video student, chances are, you're going to have to fine tune all of his basics anyways.  

Would I question the guy?  Sure, why not?  I'd still teach the guy, if he wanted to be taught, but I'd make it clear that he, even moreso now, needs to start from ground zero.  And if that means putting on a white belt, well, perhaps that would humble him a bit.


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## Carol (Dec 9, 2008)

In the "real life" situation, the fellow was signed up, and his rank was honored.  My friend seemed a bit uncomfortable with the honoring of his rank, but the head instructor feels that, once you are a student, you're family.  You wear the same uniforms, etc, and the head instructor will say when he is ready to test.

If any of you have had to teach a student like this...have you found it to be more difficult than usual to keep them motivated?


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 9, 2008)

Blindside said:


> Fakes don't hang around very long when the orange belts are over in the corner arguing about who gets to take the brown belt first when its sparring night. And it they do, they will learn.


 



			
				TwinFist said:
			
		

> warn him that if he spars wearing it, that your browns will fight him at brown belt level.


 


This covers my thoughts on the initial question, and the secondary question that he might be some kind of faker. I've never met a video trained student, but I imagine that s/he would stick out like a sore thumb.


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 9, 2008)

So what happens if he walks in a brown belt but is at your black belt level.  Do you promote him right away?  My guess is probably not.  If not then why the double standard?


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2008)

I don't understand why there would be any assumption that he is somehow a "fake", just because he might not be at the same level as your own students.  Every school has different standards, this one might just be higher than most, at least higher than the one from where this student came.

Remember, just as you look at other people and think they suck, someone else out there thinks that you suck.  

That doesn't mean anyone is "faking" anything.  It just means different standards.

If this guy has been honest, told you about his training background, why would you suspect any differently?  Why would you assume he watched some videos and then put on a brown belt and lied about his training and ranking?

He came to you to learn.  If he has been respectful about it, teach him and don't worry about anything else.


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 9, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't understand why there would be any assumption that he is somehow a "fake", just because he might not be at the same level as your own students. Every school has different standards, this one might just be higher than most, at least higher than the one from where this student came.
> 
> Remember, just as you look at other people and think they suck, someone else out there thinks that you suck.
> 
> ...


 Well said sir!


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 9, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> So what happens if he walks in a brown belt but is at your black belt level. Do you promote him right away? My guess is probably not. If not then why the double standard?


 
No, he should wait. Black belt gradings are not a reward for the gifted -- they are earned by putting in time and sweat.


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 9, 2008)

Gordon Nore said:


> No, he should wait. Black belt gradings are not a reward for the gifted -- they are earned by putting in time and sweat.


 So he puts in alot of time and sweat at his previous gym...his parents move or he/she moves because of work.  Now they should wait another two yrs or however long in order to test for what theyve earned?  Just a question.


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## Blindside (Dec 9, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> If any of you have had to teach a student like this...have you found it to be more difficult than usual to keep them motivated?


 
Yup, if they were mentally willing to start over they generally put on a white belt, and because of the brown belt they don't want to come up through the beginner ranks again.  It is pretty daunting to know that you probably have a couple years of work to do if you have gotten belts rather easily in the past.


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 9, 2008)

I am somewhat taken back by the fact that everyone chiming in is stuck on this "new" student sucking.  For some odd reason you think that your school has to be better than the one they are coming from.  Strange...


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## Blindside (Dec 9, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> So he puts in alot of time and sweat at his previous gym...his parents move or he/she moves because of work. Now they should wait another two yrs or however long in order to test for what theyve earned? Just a question.


 
Kenpo curricullums tend to be fairly particular to a school or lineage, you don't get the transferability that you might get in judo or BJJ.  Certain kata, lots of fixed "techniques," certain drills.  Black belts in my kenpo lineage are instructors, and you need to know the material to be an instructor, and you have to learn how to teach as well.  If you don't want to teach you won't get a black under me, that is the way I was brought up.  Anywho, that badass brown won't take too long to catch up, there is no skill building to do, just memorization and showing he can teach.  During that time he will be challenged at his level just like any other brown belt, and he'll be pushed by or will be pushing the black belts on the sparring floor, as it should be.  But yes, there would be some wait period.


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## Blindside (Dec 9, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> I am somewhat taken back by the fact that everyone chiming in is stuck on this "new" student sucking. For some odd reason you think that your school has to be better than the one they are coming from. Strange...


 
Because that was what the original poster asked about?


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 9, 2008)

Blindside said:


> Kenpo curricullums tend to be fairly particular to a school or lineage, you don't get the transferability that you might get in judo or BJJ. Certain kata, lots of fixed "techniques," certain drills. Black belts in my kenpo lineage are instructors, and you need to know the material to be an instructor, and you have to learn how to teach as well. If you don't want to teach you won't get a black under me, that is the way I was brought up. Anywho, that badass brown won't take too long to catch up, there is no skill building to do, just memorization and showing he can teach. During that time he will be challenged at his level just like any other brown belt, and he'll be pushed by or will be pushing the black belts on the sparring floor, as it should be. But yes, there would be some wait period.


 Ok now I understand the thinking behind it...


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## Stan (Dec 9, 2008)

OK, let me change this a little bit.  What if that same brown belt was awesomely impressive?  What if you thought he was under ranked from his old school?  How long of formally being in your class would it take until you were confident putting him up for black belt?

Meaning, would demonstrated ability be enough, or would you as a teacher need to get to know the student even if his skills met or exceeded the necessary level?

Keep in mind, there are many underranked martial artists, along with the overranked  ones.


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## John Bishop (Dec 9, 2008)

Stan said:


> OK, let me change this a little bit.  What if that same brown belt was awesomely impressive?  What if you thought he was under ranked from his old school?  How long of formally being in your class would it take until you were confident putting him up for black belt?
> 
> Meaning, would demonstrated ability be enough, or would you as a teacher need to get to know the student even if his skills met or exceeded the necessary level?
> 
> Keep in mind, there are many underranked martial artists, along with the overranked  ones.




I would say at least 1-2 years.  Reason being that becoming a black belt should entail much more then just having the necessary skill set.  
If someone came into my school ready to test for black belt, it would seem wrong for me to test him/her.  How could I claim them as one of my black belts, since I never trained them? They did'nt put in the years of training, assisting, and dedication to me or our school.  
There's more to becoming "part" of a school then just "joining" the school.  And there's a "student/teacher" relationship that is built over time with a exchange of teaching and efforts on both parts.    
I'm not saying that the student should'nt be promoted to black belt.  But if it's solely based on his/her skill level, then a board should test and promote him/her without anyone of them claiming to have been his instructor.  
Too many people now days are promoting other people's students, without ever putting in the mat time it takes to truly establish a student/teacher relationship.


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 9, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> So he puts in alot of time and sweat at his previous gym...his parents move or he/she moves because of work. Now they should wait another two yrs or however long in order to test for what theyve earned? Just a question.


 
Now we're talking more about the instructor than the student. Ideally instructors are pretty serious about whom they tie black belts on. Secondarily, our fictional instructor has X brown belts who've been sweating it out for years, working for their shot at a dan. These senior kyu are known quantities in the dojo. Junior students have trained under and they reflect the credibility of their head instructor.

So the teacher in this case needs to be thinking about more than the money somebody spent in somebody else's school.


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## Carol (Dec 9, 2008)

John Bishop said:


> I would say at least 1-2 years.  Reason being that becoming a black belt should entail much more then just having the necessary skill set.
> If someone came into my school ready to test for black belt, it would seem wrong for me to test him/her.  How could I claim them as one of my black belts, since I never trained them? They did'nt put in the years of training, assisting, and dedication to me or our school.
> There's more to becoming "part" of a school then just "joining" the school.  And there's a "student/teacher" relationship that is built over time with a exchange of teaching and efforts on both parts.
> I'm not saying that the student should'nt be promoted to black belt.  But if it's solely based on his/her skill level, then a board should test and promote him/her without anyone of them claiming to have been his instructor.
> Too many people now days are promoting other people's students, without ever putting in the mat time it takes to truly establish a student/teacher relationship.



And the time and efforts...that is a delineation between someone who is "a black belt" and someone who is *your* black belt, correct sir?


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 9, 2008)

John Bishop said:


> I would say at least 1-2 years. Reason being that becoming a black belt should entail much more then just having the necessary skill set.
> If someone came into my school ready to test for black belt, it would seem wrong for me to test him/her. How could I claim them as one of my black belts, since I never trained them? They did'nt put in the years of training, assisting, and dedication to me or our school.
> There's more to becoming "part" of a school then just "joining" the school. And there's a "student/teacher" relationship that is built over time with a exchange of teaching and efforts on both parts.
> I'm not saying that the student should'nt be promoted to black belt. But if it's solely based on his/her skill level, then a board should test and promote him/her without anyone of them claiming to have been his instructor.
> Too many people now days are promoting other people's students, without ever putting in the mat time it takes to truly establish a student/teacher relationship.


 I completely agree with the relationship aspect.


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## JadeDragon3 (Dec 9, 2008)

I come from a kung fu background and it seems each kung fu school has it's own curriculum for each sash.  At my school we learn a begginer form (gung li chuan) then after that we learn a different animal form for each sash level. Then for black sash we have to learn whip chain form and make one creative form (it can either be empty hand or weapon).  We also learn staff (green sash) and broadsword (red sash).  Our sash system goes white, yellow, green, blue, purple, red, brown 2nd, brown 1st, and then 1st level black sash.  

Because there are so many Shaolin forms I would look at the forms he knows and other material and base my decision (sp?) on what I see from him.  He may have other Shaolin forms that I don't teach.  I might would work out sometype of trade off.  For example IF his forms seemed to be legit I might would let him substitute some of his forms for mine and let him keep his sash level but he would still have to learn my curriculum.


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## Danjo (Dec 9, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> So what happens if he walks in a brown belt but is at your black belt level. Do you promote him right away? My guess is probably not. If not then why the double standard?


 
Because there's more to being a black belt than skill. There's character, maturity and just an over all sense of who you want representing themselves as one of your students. That takes a bit of time to find out.

Edit: (I should have read the earlier posts before writing this since it's redundant)


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## KELLYG (Dec 9, 2008)

I have seen students come into our school from other schools.  Unless they are black belts they are put in white belts and introduced as someone with "experience".  After they have trained a while, they are then placed at the level that matches our curriculum/standards. 

If, suggested in previous posts, the student is a video student, got to give him props for, wanting to do it bad enough, to try to teach himself. 
Someone that motivated will probably be a good student.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 9, 2008)

ALMOST same situation that I was in when I moved here from Utah to Tenn. In principal if not similarities I had all this experience and more years doing than most of my peers here. Yet I wasn't doing it the way that THEY were doing it. My methods were different but not so radically that they couldn't recognize what I was doing. 
Then I was asked to instruct. Oh boy... do I instruct my way or their way... well I'm not wholly familiar but recognize their way and know how they do it but feel that my way is better for specific reasons. 
When I explain those reasons to the "students" it seems that they went and told them to those who had "questioned" my methods... nobody has critiqued or denied my instructions since. Plus I've shown my competency more times over. 
Had they wanted me to do it their way, honestly I think I'd be a bit miffed and resisting at first but rapidly would've given in to doing it their way. But that's just me... other folks might have an air of ego about them that'll get hurt when you burst their bubble. They might quit... no matter how tactfully you may have told them why they're not going to advance until they adopt their new school's curriculum (as it were). :idunno:  Hopefully they'll have that brown-belt maturity that I've observed in many who hold that rank and accept the new school's method's and go on. 
If not... oh well. People are going to have their own opinion of themselves and if they're not wiling to accept change to that then... nothing you can do to make them. 
They will decide to leave on their own...hopefully not leave mad.


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## JTKenpo (Dec 9, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Edit: (I should have read the earlier posts before writing this since it's redundant)


 

nope needed to be said more than once.

When I opened my school there was another school that had just recently shut down, within the previous 3 months.  I had no affiliation or knowledge of the other school but as it turns out we had extremely similar curriculums.  So to the point.  After being open maybe 3 months a kid walks in says he's a black belt from this other guy that just closed down, he's real serious about his training and will have no problem bringing in his certificates to prove it.  We talk, he knows the curriculum (by name) and moves well enough so I tell him he can wear the black belt and he will work towards his 2nd when the time comes.  Well on the mats he only remembered about 1/3 of the material so I quietly pulled him aside and told him again that the requirements are the requirements, keep the black belt but your 2nd degree test will consist of everything white to 2nd degree.  So he trains with me for about a year maybe a little longer, the whole time "I can't wait till I get my 2nd, my 2nd, my 2nd....."  His old instructor opens up a few towns over, this gentleman gives him a call next thing you know he is promoted to 2nd and I said nice knowing you......

No matter what belt they wear some are your students for life some just until they get what they want.


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## John Bishop (Dec 9, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> nope needed to be said more than once.
> 
> When I opened my school there was another school that had just recently shut down, within the previous 3 months.  I had no affiliation or knowledge of the other school but as it turns out we had extremely similar curriculums.  So to the point.  After being open maybe 3 months a kid walks in says he's a black belt from this other guy that just closed down, he's real serious about his training and will have no problem bringing in his certificates to prove it.  We talk, he knows the curriculum (by name) and moves well enough so I tell him he can wear the black belt and he will work towards his 2nd when the time comes.  Well on the mats he only remembered about 1/3 of the material so I quietly pulled him aside and told him again that the requirements are the requirements, keep the black belt but your 2nd degree test will consist of everything white to 2nd degree.  So he trains with me for about a year maybe a little longer, the whole time "I can't wait till I get my 2nd, my 2nd, my 2nd....."  His old instructor opens up a few towns over, this gentleman gives him a call next thing you know he is promoted to 2nd and I said nice knowing you......
> 
> No matter what belt they wear some are your students for life some just until they get what they want.



Sadly that's the way some students are.  Their loyalty is solely based on who's promoting them at the time.


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## KenpoDave (Dec 9, 2008)

pete said:


> Teach him.


 
Very nice.  

I would assume that the person has come to me because they assume that I have something to teach them.  Their previous rank is secondary to the fact that they have come to me for teaching.  My job is to teach, and I use the beginning material to establish a baseline.  Besides, the important stuff is taught in the beginning, and we all know that kenpo is like an onion, layer upon layer of information on the simplest concepts.

It is interesting to note that the people that come to me that are brown belt or under always want to know if they can "keep" their rank.  Those who have made shodan or above typically don't care.

I will say this...most of the people who come to me with brown belts or below from another school/system are inferior to my students.  And likewise, most that leave me find themselves inferior at other schools.  Typically, these are the jump around from school to school until you find the easiest path to black belt, get black, then quit students.  There are exceptions, of course.  Schools close, people transfer, etc.

I try not to judge other schools/instructors/styles by their quitters.  And I am not going to punish a new student of mine who achieved what was asked of him to obtain a certain rank.


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## KenpoDave (Dec 9, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> I am somewhat taken back by the fact that everyone chiming in is stuck on this "new" student sucking. For some odd reason you think that your school has to be better than the one they are coming from. Strange...


 
It has been my experience that most of the students coming from other schools are inferior to mine.  Not because my school is better, not because I am a better teacher than their previous instructor, but because that is the nature of the quitter.

Again, there are exceptions, and I have had a few of those too.  But typically, I get the guys who come in from somewhere else, find that my curriculum is not any easier than what they came from, and after a month or two, they move on down the street.

When I began kenpo, I was a brown belt in gojuryu.  My instructor had moved to CA (about a 2600 mile drive) and I had spent two years looking for a good school.  During the two years, I quit three other schools because they were not what I was looking for.  I have been on both sides of the issue, and have decided after more than a few years that my job is to give my best to everyone that walks in the door, regardless of how long I have them.


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## jarrod (Dec 10, 2008)

i'll share with everyone how i've dealt with a similar situation recently.  i teach shingitai jujitsu & recently had a bjj blue belt join.  his guard is very good, his top game is okay, & his throws were non-existent.  i had him wear a white belt for about three months.  once i saw that he was honestly doing his best to learn what our style has to offer i went ahead promoted him to blue under shingitai.  when i promoted him i told him honestly that he would be at blue belt longer than most so that his throwing skills could catch up to his ground game.  he was fine with this & proud to accept his blue belt, & i don't have a guy in a white belt destroying my green belts on the mat  

jf


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 10, 2008)

jarrod said:


> i'll share with everyone how i've dealt with a similar situation recently. i teach shingitai jujitsu & recently had a bjj blue belt join. his guard is very good, his top game is okay, & his throws were non-existent. i had him wear a white belt for about three months. once i saw that he was honestly doing his best to learn what our style has to offer i went ahead promoted him to blue under shingitai. when i promoted him i told him honestly that he would be at blue belt longer than most so that his throwing skills could catch up to his ground game. he was fine with this & proud to accept his blue belt, & i don't have a guy in a white belt destroying my green belts on the mat
> 
> jf


 Thats good...had to test his will a little bit.  People are too hung up on their belts.  Let your skills and personality shine and the belts will come.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 10, 2008)

We have had that circumstance at our taekwondo dojang.  One Shotokan shodan came in, put on his white belt (he brought it with him, along with his Shotokan gi), and eventually, earned his Ildan at our dojang.  He has remained with us and has become a fantastic asset to our dojang.  

One blue belt from another taekwondo style (ITF I believe) came in because he'd moved in from Michigan.  He stayed at blue for a bit until he was comfortable with our curriculum and is preparing to test for red in January.

When we opened our Frederick dojang, we inherited a large number of students and two instructors from another dojang.  All were allowed to keep their rank and simply didn't test again until they were up to speed on the curriculum.  Both instructors eventually became instructors with us and both the instructors and the students have been a boon to our dojang.

We did have one gent inquire one day who had a brown belt.  He asked if he would be allowed to retain it if he signed up.  I told him no: we don't have a brown belt in our system, but GM Kim would be happy to evaluate his skill and knowledge of the curriculum and rank him accordingly.  He had come in during kumdo, which he stayed on to watch.  He said he'd be back, but I have not seen him since.

Just a few experiences that were mildly on topic.

Daniel


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## tigdra (Dec 10, 2008)

We had this happen in our school but it was a 3rd degree black belt and his belt list was much smaller than ours. We first asked for a copy of his notes to see the differences in technique description and knowledge. then we tested him through all aspects (fighting, physical endurance..etc.) After that we went technique by technique and kata by kata analyzing any difference and questioning why a certain move was performed in that manner. This is something that really makes the student understand what exactly we are doing. It is easy to tell someone that is wrong do it this way, its better to see their side and offer a better solution. After that we let him join the group classes but he couldn't line up in the front with the black belt until he reached their level. 

Later on we find out that he had an argument with his old teacher because he didn't want to wait 4 years for his 4th black and thought that maybe he could lie and say he had been a 3rd black for 5 years already, but we explained to him that he would still have to wait 4 years from the moment he walked into our school. He eventually quit an d decided to go back to his old teacher and wait it out.


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## Todd Reiner (Dec 10, 2008)

I read these posts and the examples of stories that disturb me is this importance on rank/belts. I just do not comprehend the importance of it. (Personnaly if I start at new school I'd want to start at white.) Just goes to show what the martial arts community has become. Year by year the martial is taken away for commercialism. Higher the rank, more money, martial is lost, and the art is a memory.

I would handle the brown belt as I would any other student. Kajukenbo students would keep their belt on the blessing of the former instructor. That student (brown belt) then puts time with me. Minimum a year probably more. Former instructor gets personal updates from me on the progress of the brown belt and we decide together on the future of this student. This is the best case scenario and of course there are always variables.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 10, 2008)

Todd Reiner said:


> I read these posts and the examples of stories that disturb me is this importance on rank/belts. I just do not comprehend the importance of it. (Personnaly if I start at new school I'd want to start at white.) Just goes to show what the martial arts community has become. Year by year the martial is taken away for commercialism. Higher the rank, more money, martial is lost, and the art is a memory.


While I agree that commercialism is rampant in MA, a student asking to retain his rank (assuming that it is the same style) is not necessarily party to that.  

Just another possibility: student wishes to train at a new place for whatever reason and does not wish to pay into the colored belts all over again.  

Additionally, some organizations actually tout the notion of portable rank, the Kukkiwon being one of them.  If I go to another Kukkiwon school, I do expect that my Kukkiwon rank to be recognized.  To be fair, I make darn sure that I'm up to speed and well practiced in the Kukkiwon curriculum so that I don't embarrass my GM and, of course, I'm not school hopping.

Personally, I am in favor of keeping the hypothetical brown belt at his or her current level until they are ready to test for the next belt.  If they need to come up to speed, then so be it.  I do like what others have said regarding the school's patch: no patch indicates that they got their brown belt elsewhere and until they have shown that they're up to snuff, no emblems bearing the school's name or logo.

Daniel


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## jarrod (Dec 11, 2008)

Todd Reiner said:


> I read these posts and the examples of stories that disturb me is this importance on rank/belts. I just do not comprehend the importance of it. (Personnaly if I start at new school I'd want to start at white.) Just goes to show what the martial arts community has become. Year by year the martial is taken away for commercialism. Higher the rank, more money, martial is lost, and the art is a memory.


 
i think it is more a matter of etiquitte than rank obsession.  if you are an upper belt in one school then walk into another school as a white belt & make no mention of your experience...it may appear as if you are sharking a bit. 

jf


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## Todd Reiner (Dec 11, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> While I agree that commercialism is rampant in MA, a student asking to retain his rank (assuming that it is the same style) is not necessarily party to that.
> 
> Just another possibility: student wishes to train at a new place for whatever reason and does not wish to pay into the colored belts all over again.
> 
> ...


 
If a student knows the material then yes, keep the belt that was earned on. This will happen within the same lineage. If a student does not know the material then it might be appropriate for him to put on the white belt. However, as an instructor I would contact this students instructor and make a mutual decision, as well as listen to the input of the brown belt.

If I train under a different branch of Kajukenbo I would expect to start with a white belt. How can I wear a black belt when the color belts know more of the curriculum than I do? Once again this is a decision of the instructor, not the student.

Regarding paying into the color belts all over again, would that brown belt not have to pay monthly dues anyways just to catch up? The brown belt would/should also learn the material at the quick pace and advance quicker than normal. So the time to learn and advance through belts should be the same as if he just stayed as a brown belt. His out of pocket expense should be close to the same.


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## Todd Reiner (Dec 11, 2008)

jarrod said:


> i think it is more a matter of etiquitte than rank obsession. if you are an upper belt in one school then walk into another school as a white belt & make no mention of your experience...it may appear as if you are sharking a bit.
> 
> jf


Agreed, but where in my statement did I advocate not telling the instructor? A student had better tell me any experience they may have had.

Is it proper etiquette for a student to retain thier belt when moving from one school to another? Same lineage yes. Different lineage I discuss with previous instructor.

Another option is student wears no belt until they catch up.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 11, 2008)

Todd Reiner said:


> If a student knows the material then yes, keep the belt that was earned on. This will happen within the same lineage. If a student does not know the material then it might be appropriate for him to put on the white belt. However, as an instructor I would contact this students instructor and make a mutual decision, as well as listen to the input of the brown belt.
> 
> If I train under a different branch of Kajukenbo I would expect to start with a white belt. How can I wear a black belt when the color belts know more of the curriculum than I do? Once again this is a decision of the instructor, not the student.


Totally agree.  If the organization and/or curriculum is different, anyone should expect to start at white belt.



Todd Reiner said:


> Regarding paying into the color belts all over again, would that brown belt not have to pay monthly dues anyways just to catch up? The brown belt would/should also learn the material at the quick pace and advance quicker than normal. So the time to learn and advance through belts should be the same as if he just stayed as a brown belt. His out of pocket expense should be close to the same.


Well, dues are one thing, but in some systems, you can pay literally hundreds in colored belt testings, which is the result of the commercialism.  

There isn't a taekwondo school in my area that has fewer than ten belts, and most have twelve, including black.  Generally, testing fees begin at around twenty to thirty dollars and get progressively higher, until you get to the last four belts before black, which are generall over fifty a piece, going up to a hundred a pop for the last couple.  

Now, if the new schools says simply, learn the curriculum and wear the appropriate colored belt that you already own, then I'd say that the student should respect that, as it is gouging no cash from him or her.

And thank you for your reply.

Daniel


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## Todd Reiner (Dec 11, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Totally agree. If the organization and/or curriculum is different, anyone should expect to start at white belt.
> 
> 
> Well, dues are one thing, but in some systems, you can pay literally hundreds in colored belt testings, which is the result of the commercialism.
> ...


 Wow, that can add up, I can see now why some may wanna keep their belt due to finances.  Thanks for explaining.


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## jarrod (Dec 12, 2008)

Todd Reiner said:


> Agreed, but where in my statement did I advocate not telling the instructor? A student had better tell me any experience they may have had.
> 
> Is it proper etiquette for a student to retain thier belt when moving from one school to another? Same lineage yes. Different lineage I discuss with previous instructor.
> 
> Another option is student wears no belt until they catch up.


 
i wasn't arguing with you my man, just pointing something out that hadn't come up yet.  

for my school at least, there are far, far too many variables to have a strict policy about the transfer of rank.  as an instructor, i don't want to hand out rank to every ranking jujitsuka or judoka who spends a week at my gym.  on the other hand, i don't want someone wearing a white belt beating up on my colored belts for months & months because i'm too stingy to give him rank.  

jf


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## Kenpo17 (Jan 15, 2009)

I would first greet him/her.  Once on the mat with the other brown belts, I would just work slower with him, maybe give my normal students to another instructor while I try to work through the form or technique with the new student.  I would know this since we have new students who come into our studio already with a green, brown, and in a few cases black belts, and we do exactly what I just mentioned.


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