# Officer Fires At Minivan On Traffic Stop



## MJS (Nov 18, 2013)

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but I thought it'd make a good discussion topic.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...after-traffic-stop-scuffle-in-new-mexico?lite

Watching the clip, do you feel that the shooting was justified?  How do you feel the officer handled the stop? 

IMO, I would say the shooting was not justified.  From what I could see, there were no visable weapons on the woman or kid who jumped out.  The minivan was speeding away, not towards anyone.  As for the rest of it...I'm surprised he didn't use OC or a Taser a bit sooner.  Of course I love how the woman says that she was fearing for her kids.  Umm...ok lady, and driving like a jackass, to get away from the cops, is keeping your kids safe?


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## Tgace (Nov 18, 2013)

He was shooting at the tires....still a no no imo.

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## Tenacious_Red (Nov 18, 2013)

Hi there, 

(this is actually my first response, as I am a new member, but have been lurking for sometime now)

There is speculation on whether or not shooting at tires is actually effective, hence tire spikes. Also anyone familar with northern NM knows that the terrian is mountainous, but there are so many areas where you can speed easily (especially where they were at), and many do. While she was putting her children in danger by speeding, yes she was also endangering the public, but that area is rural, they would have been better off just laying down a strip, or following through the chase without harming the children and public as much as possible (it can be done, and it has been done daily). With that said, open handed use of force was needed with the mother and the juvenile who charge the officer, however, gunfire was not neccesary. They must have locked the van doors, so the officer smashed the window to try and stop the mother from fleeing. Why he didn't try to smash the driver window, and not one by the children? (time, reacting, who knows?) Even if the mother was combative, the best thing he could have done was isolate her from the children until back up came, but easier said than done, as you can see the kids turned on him just as quickly as the officer tried to maintain the situation. This is why your brain and mouth are your most important tools at times.


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## Tgace (Nov 18, 2013)

The 14 yo son in the passenger seat had struck an officer previously.... dont let the age fool you.

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## Tenacious_Red (Nov 18, 2013)

Certainly. I almost prefer dealing with combative adults over juveniles.


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## MJS (Nov 18, 2013)

Tgace said:


> He was shooting at the tires....still a no no imo.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2



Out of curiosity, how do we know this?  Personally, I think that's no different than people asking why the cop didn't shoot the leg. LOL.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 18, 2013)

As a non LEO, it appears to me that firing on the minivan was unwarranted. At least with the available info from the camera.  No specific target and innocents in the line of fire.  As for the earlier events. One police man trying to contain an evolving situation. His actions don't seem particularly inappropriate but I leave it to the professionals to analyze.  All too often, we don't have all the relevant info and it's a disservice to the individuals involved to assume we know what was really happening.


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## Tgace (Nov 18, 2013)

MJS said:


> Out of curiosity, how do we know this?  Personally, I think that's no different than people asking why the cop didn't shoot the leg. LOL.



When you watch the video you can see he's firing extremely low. And there was a statement he was aiming at tires. Its still too dangerous to attempt for a situation like this IMO.

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## oftheherd1 (Nov 18, 2013)

Tgace said:


> When you watch the video you can see he's firing extremely low. And there was a statement he was aiming at tires. Its still too dangerous to attempt for a situation like this IMO.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2



When I first saw the video, my first thought was that he was firing at the tires also.  That was due both to the way he moved to the side and the angle of his weapon.  Warranted or not I can't say without more facts.  I do know that it is harder to kill a car than the movies would make us believe.  

The person to whom the car was registered may have had something to do with some of the reactions on the part of the police as well.

As to the woman's statement she feared for her children, I don't think her actions bear that out.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 18, 2013)

Against our GOs to fire at a moving vehicle.  He already ID her when she stopped the first time and saw she had a bunch of kids in car I wouldn't have chased her.
2nd if you have enough to remove her and cuff her then you do it.  You don't play around because she's a woman.  Playing around trying not to hurt her causes more trouble then just being firm and forceful and end it. I bet if it was a man as soon as he tried to pull away and get back to the car door the cop would have put him on the ground.  Male cops are too timid when going hands on with females.  That caused things to escalate out of control.  If she's going to resist you treat her like anyone else that resists.
Also she drove away once.  When he pulled her out of the car I always grab the keys


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## MJS (Nov 18, 2013)

Tgace said:


> When you watch the video you can see he's firing extremely low. And there was a statement he was aiming at tires. Its still too dangerous to attempt for a situation like this IMO.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2



Ok, I guess I wasn't viewing it that way, in addition to missing the tire comment.  I still can't help but to think that this is no different than hearing people say, "Why didn't the cop just shoot in the leg?  Why did he have to kill him?"  IMO, in this case, they'd have been better off resuming the chase, which they did, or trying to use stop sticks, if available.


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## Tames D (Nov 18, 2013)

I thought the whole situation was handled poorly. They can't take control of a woman and her child in a simple traffic stop (I don't care how old the child was and what he had done previously to an officer). Trained professionals should have been able to bring the situation under control without the suspect escaping, and shooting at them in desperation. And the window breaking at the childs seat, really? Perhaps time for more training, or dismissal?


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## Tgace (Nov 18, 2013)

Tames D said:


> They can't take control of a woman and her child in a simple traffic stop (I don't care how old the child was and what he had done previously to an officer).



Ever tried it? Things always appear to be easy from the armchair....


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## Tames D (Nov 18, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Ever tried it? Things always appear to be easy from the armchair....



I'm not into armchair. And no I haven't tried it. But that's not my profession. And yes, I do expect trained professional LEO's to do better. Don't you?


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## jks9199 (Nov 18, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Against our GOs to fire at a moving vehicle.  He already ID her when she stopped the first time and saw she had a bunch of kids in car I wouldn't have chased her.
> 2nd if you have enough to remove her and cuff her then you do it.  You don't play around because she's a woman.  Playing around trying not to hurt her causes more trouble then just being firm and forceful and end it. I bet if it was a man as soon as he tried to pull away and get back to the car door the cop would have put him on the ground.  Male cops are too timid when going hands on with females.  That caused things to escalate out of control.  If she's going to resist you treat her like anyone else that resists.
> Also she drove away once.  When he pulled her out of the car I always grab the keys



We have similar GOs.  Shooting at a moving car had better be backed up by one hell of a justification.  There are times when it's right and justified -- but there aren't many, and, based on what's been shown, I wouldn't include this one.


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## Tames D (Nov 19, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Ever tried it? Things always appear to be easy from the armchair....



Just curious. I answered your question, will you answer mine? Post #14.


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## Tgace (Nov 20, 2013)

Tames D said:


> Just curious. I answered your question, will you answer mine? Post #14.



People who say "that cop should have been able to..." always seem to forget that the other person has a say in it. When you try to get a 100 lb drunk and fighting female into cuffs without punching/choking her unconscious you come back and tell me how easy it was.

I expect officers to get the job done as best as they can in the situation they are in while staying within the law and department policy.

People who haven't done the job don't really understand the saying "**** happens". Id feel comfortable betting that any one of those officers have handled other situations in exemplary fashion...in this one "**** happened". Id probably have the shooter subjected to some sort of professional discipline, but I don't know what the policy is within his PD.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 20, 2013)

The problem with that whole situation is had he put her down on her face and cuffed her prior to the shooting the video would look totally different and the same guy that says why can't that cop handle a woman would now complain why did that cop treat her so rough.  Its a no win situation.  Either way shooting at a fleeing vehicle with kids is wrong in my book but. I'd like to hear his reason for it.  I wasn't there and don't know the whole story.  I've had plenty of people run from me and shooting the tires has never crossed my mind.


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## Tames D (Nov 20, 2013)

Tgace said:


> People who say "that cop should have been able to..." always seem to forget that the other person has a say in it. When you try to get a 100 lb drunk and fighting female into cuffs without punching/choking her unconscious you come back and tell me how easy it was.
> 
> I expect officers to get the job done as best as they can in the situation they are in while staying within the law and department policy.
> 
> ...



I understand what you are saying and I feel for cops, you guys have a tough, thankless job. **** happens in my occupation too. But I cant imagine shooting at someone that was unarmed. Take the woman to the ground like you would a man, or let her flee, but shooting at her and her kids? 
And just for the record, what you guys do is appreciated by me and my community. I have a very good relationship with our Sheriffs dept. Good people.


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## Tgace (Nov 21, 2013)

Tames D said:


> I understand what you are saying and I feel for cops, you guys have a tough, thankless job. **** happens in my occupation too. But I cant imagine shooting at someone that was unarmed. Take the woman to the ground like you would a man, or let her flee, but shooting at her and her kids?
> And just for the record, what you guys do is appreciated by me and my community. I have a very good relationship with our Sheriffs dept. Good people.



Last I heard the officer was not going to be charged because it was determined that he was shooting at the vehicles tires. So, while I don't agree with tire shoots because of the "**** happens" factor I don't know that I'm the OMG HE WAS SHOOTING AT KIDS wagon either.....

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## oftheherd1 (Nov 21, 2013)

Tames D said:


> I understand what you are saying and I feel for cops, you guys have a tough, thankless job. **** happens in my occupation too. But I cant imagine shooting at someone that was unarmed. Take the woman to the ground like you would a man, or let her flee,* but shooting at her and her kids*?
> And just for the record, what you guys do is appreciated by me and my community. I have a very good relationship with our Sheriffs dept. Good people.



I agree with all you said except the bolded/underlined portion.  It is a dangerous thing to do as if you make a mistake you may hit someone you didn't intend to, but I am sure in the cop's mind, he wasn't shooting at anyone, but rather at the tire.  So continuing to say he was shooting at the woman and her kids may be unnecessarily inflammatory.  Again, I acknowledge it was a dangerous thing to do given there were other passengers in the car.


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