# Ranking System Within Wing Chun



## vincehardy3 (Nov 17, 2005)

I'm curious...what is the ranking structure within Wing Chun?  Is there a belt ranking system within Wing Chun that is equivalent (sp) to karate?  If so, what are the ranks, and their karate belt equivalent (sp)?  I'm asking because I see where people hold the title "6th Level Instructor"...what does that mean?

Thanks,


Vince


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## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2005)

I've seen it, but I suspect it is a product of the individual school.  I don't believe there is any established ranking structure that any group of wing chun people who did not study directly under the same teacher, would recognize.


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## ed-swckf (Nov 17, 2005)

vincehardy3 said:
			
		

> I'm curious...what is the ranking structure within Wing Chun? Is there a belt ranking system within Wing Chun that is equivalent (sp) to karate? If so, what are the ranks, and their karate belt equivalent (sp)? I'm asking because I see where people hold the title "6th Level Instructor"...what does that mean?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ...


 
We have 6 levels of intructors in our school, and if its at all the same it just means they have been instructing for a while and can teach the whole system.  Although the levels are little more than a guideline, i mean level 2 intructors just haven't been teaching as long.  They probably wouldn't convey the aspects and nuances of the later forms so well and generally wouldn't be an instructor in that area.  

While a few schools adopt ranking systems with coloured sashes usually, the majority of wing chun schools don't use ranking with too much emphasis.  Perhaps a different coloured t-shirt to resemble what part of the sylabus you are studying is a more common form of ranking.


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## brothershaw (Nov 17, 2005)

Loosely I would say there is no basis except time in, and even thats a tough one.
Some schools teach the material ( forms and such) in different order, in addition to the great variation in the forms. Also some schools try to teach alot more material in a shorter period of time than others. 
So somebody who spent 3 years one place could be completely different from 3 years spent someplace else, with ALOT less consistency than you would see in karate.


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## barriecusvein (Nov 18, 2005)

At our school there is no differentiating between most practitioners. Only the Sifu and highest level instructors have a white band on their top. They say you don't need a coloured belt to know how good someone is, you will find out when you touch arms with them.


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## samurai69 (Nov 19, 2005)

When i started in wing chun....my school had no belt or sash ranking system, it was introduded shortly after my sifu moved to a new gym and the students wanted a method of grading (sash)


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## bcbernam777 (Nov 19, 2005)

There is no ranking system as such, Yip Man had no ranking system, and my Sifu has no ranking system, he just teaches and either you have the skill or you dont, however in the school we are setting up we will have a ranking system. I believe it is an effecient way of dealing with students in a school setting, where as if I was teaching privatly I wouldn't be concerned with a grading system.


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## Dazzla (Nov 29, 2005)

My association has 6 gradings to get to black belt. 

White
Yellow
Green
Blue
Red
Black

There then another 6 levels after that.


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## ed-swckf (Nov 29, 2005)

Dazzla said:
			
		

> My association has 6 gradings to get to black belt.
> 
> White
> Yellow
> ...


 
Out of interest what sort of things are focussed upon when you are at the black belt level?


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## Dazzla (Nov 29, 2005)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Out of interest what sort of things are focussed upon when you are at the black belt level?


 
I will find out for you. I know the dummy and weapons are not part of the first black but I know the first black covers all the hand forms.


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## ed-swckf (Dec 1, 2005)

Dazzla said:
			
		

> I will find out for you. I know the dummy and weapons are not part of the first black but I know the first black covers all the hand forms.


 
thank you for that.


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## Jan sing sang (Dec 11, 2005)

Through history Wing Chun was taught to a small group of people (usually fammily and few students) so there was no need for a grading system. Universal grading still doesnt exist. As you different schools or lineages have different ways (if any) of grading. 

Dazzla, aren't belts something that is connected only with Japanese martial arts and arts that have derived from them, or am I mistaken?

thanx,


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## crysis (Dec 19, 2005)

ive never heard of a ranking system but off the top of my head, i could create one....


belts 1-9 
_____

1-3 = sil lim tao

4-6 = chum kiu

7-9 = biu tze 

im not sure about karate colors but lets call it
white
yellow
orange
green
blue
purple
red
brown
black

so like, i believe once all 3 empty hand forms are learned, you are considered able to teach. wooden dummy, 6.5 pole, ect are other levels of "black belt" i believe.


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## Dazzla (Dec 21, 2005)

Jan sing sang said:
			
		

> Through history Wing Chun was taught to a small group of people (usually fammily and few students) so there was no need for a grading system. Universal grading still doesnt exist. As you different schools or lineages have different ways (if any) of grading.
> 
> Dazzla, aren't belts something that is connected only with Japanese martial arts and arts that have derived from them, or am I mistaken?
> 
> thanx,


 
Our ranking system is in line with the Southern UK Wing Chun Association which is affiliated with the Ip Man WCAA Hong Kong and the Ip Chun WC Academy. The ranking was developed with them.  So who am I to argue.


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## ed-swckf (Dec 21, 2005)

Dazzla said:
			
		

> Our ranking system is in line with the Southern UK Wing Chun Association which is affiliated with the Ip Man WCAA Hong Kong and the Ip Chun WC Academy. The ranking was developed with them. So who am I to argue.


 
Pretty much anyone can be affiliated with the ving tsun athletic association and to be an instructor in that association isn't completely credible either.  Same goes with the ip chun academy, if the ranking was devoloped with them then why don't all schools in the vtaa or ip chun academy tow the same line?  And i am pretty sure none of ip chuns official 14 representitives worldwide follow the same belt system if they, many don't follow one, they do tend to work on a similar sylabus but thats about it.  

I mean theres nothing wrong with you guys using a belt scheme if it works for you and i'm not belittling it in anyway.  But i don't think you should qualify it in such a way, i mean neither certifications qualify it. And neither certifications are something that means you or anyone else shouldn't have a valid argument for or against it.  I'm not making a personal attack i just think people should be very wary of putting to much weight in all the certification that floats around.


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## Dazzla (Dec 23, 2005)

I am not agreeing or disagreeing, I am just saying I do not have the expertise or experience to argue with the way I am taught. I have just passed my yellow (2nd of 6 to 1st black belt) and it has taken taken me twelve months. It will take me another six months to pass my green. The jump in our org from green to blue is a large jump indeed and it takes most people about 18 months to bridge that jump. But at blue belt you are able to participate with instructing the beginners, and I would say I learnt just as much from the blue belts helping me out in classes as i did from the sifus. All blue belts are encouraged to still go to beginners lessons as they practice their basics all the time. And from what I have seen so far in my training f you master the basics you are very much on the way to being a very good wing chunist.

I feel in my org people who have not achieved a certain grading look for people who are a higher grading for advice and help. And I must say even though I am not that advanced I still really enjoy helping people who have just started, and also going to the advanced classes where I learn from my fellow students who are of a higher level.


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## brothershaw (Dec 23, 2005)

Dazzla - nothing wrong with your posts keep training its good to have a visible curriculum to gauge practice, even though after awhile everyone knows where they stand in time in and skill compared to everyone else.


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## ed-swckf (Dec 24, 2005)

Dazzla said:
			
		

> I am not agreeing or disagreeing, I am just saying I do not have the expertise or experience to argue with the way I am taught.


 
But you are able to question what people tell you, and we aren't talking about how you are taught here, i'm sure from my understanding and experience of people from your org that your training is all very good stuff.  But you can agree or disagree with their ranking system without much experience in wing chun.



			
				Dazzla said:
			
		

> I have just passed my yellow (2nd of 6 to 1st black belt) and it has taken taken me twelve months. It will take me another six months to pass my green. The jump in our org from green to blue is a large jump indeed and it takes most people about 18 months to bridge that jump.


 
Congratulations on your yellow, keep it up but i would say one thing in hope it is something you already know.  Don't set yourself too much of a precise path, i mean sure going for your green is a goal but don't fixate just on that, take the time to learn your wing chun really well regardless of ranking.    



			
				Dazzla said:
			
		

> But at blue belt you are able to participate with instructing the beginners, and I would say I learnt just as much from the blue belts helping me out in classes as i did from the sifus. All blue belts are encouraged to still go to beginners lessons as they practice their basics all the time. And from what I have seen so far in my training f you master the basics you are very much on the way to being a very good wing chunist.


 
Its also really good practice for the blue belts to get an experience of conveying their knowledge of wing chun to others.  The basics are always of upmost importance, the first form is so important even though it doesn't look like much.  You are absoloutely correct in making sure you concentrate on creating a solid understanding of the basics, it will indeed make a better artist in the end.



			
				Dazzla said:
			
		

> I feel in my org people who have not achieved a certain grading look for people who are a higher grading for advice and help. And I must say even though I am not that advanced I still really enjoy helping people who have just started, and also going to the advanced classes where I learn from my fellow students who are of a higher level.


 
I don't dispute that at all and i feel thats how it should be, its all about  passing on the tradition.  Good luck in all your training.


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## kaszodis (Jun 11, 2006)

The instuctors who don't believe in ranking...well, how did they get ranked to be instructors?  If there was no sytem of ranking when they were training, how did they become sifus? I find it odd that an instructor is reluctant to give rank to deserving students. Are they perhaps afraid of possible contenders?


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## bcbernam777 (Jun 11, 2006)

kaszodis said:
			
		

> The instuctors who don't believe in ranking...well, how did they get ranked to be instructors?  If there was no sytem of ranking when they were training, how did they become sifus? I find it odd that an instructor is reluctant to give rank to deserving students. Are they perhaps afraid of possible contenders?



Our ranking comes in our own ability.


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## kaszodis (Jun 11, 2006)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> Our ranking comes in our own ability.



I agree. How is that ability assessed and recognized?


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## bcbernam777 (Jun 12, 2006)

kaszodis said:
			
		

> I agree. How is that ability assessed and recognized?



How do you make assements on how well someone drives a car? There are certian skill sets and concept to be absorbed granted, but the problem is that everyone is an individual, where they may excell at one aspect of Wing Chun they may need some major work at others, even if these areas may be considered more elementary. A perfect example has been in my own journey, My Stance was at an advanced level, ie the energy I could produce throught the stance was dynamic and powerful, however, my shoulder was still stiff and tense something that should have been sorted by 9 months yet had not been, whereas there where others whose stance was useless yet their shoulder was loose and fluid. We where different, we are human beings with our own thoughts, feelings, learning styles etc which is exactly why I dont believe the one size fits all belt system doesn't work, and is an ieffecinet way of determining and indeed catagorising (if that can be done at all) skill sets. this is also why I made a decision that I will not teach more than 12 people at a time, because I dnt beleive that you can effectivly teach large classes and pass on effective martial arts. I think the traditional way of teaching was actually done for a reason, rather than just a tradition, it was done to *ensure *the quality of the martial art, and its future survival, indeed the crucifying of Wing Chun on a daily basis over the net, is sufficeint enough proof that the global quality of Wing Chun is low, low, low, and the whole reason for this is Large classes, and synthetic grading systems. Growth is organic and natural, and can not be placed in a box as neatly as we would like.


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## Kensai (Jun 12, 2006)

I agree with ^ post. It's ok to have some form of recognition of progression, but having a belt means virtually nothing in my view. People can too often become caught up in "don't mess with me, I'm a pink belt" etc etc. We have assessments, that, ok, they're designed to put you through your paces, but it's simply viewed as a means to an end as to how you've progressed, but as such we don't wear belts. Belts are there to hold up your trousers. IMHO.


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## monji112000 (Jun 12, 2006)

TMC do not have belts or levels.
Why?
The relationship of Sifu's and disciples is not the same as Western MA schools.
 A Diciple would life, and is basically adopted by his Sifu or father. IT was a life long mentoring, and not like our Western practice of a few days a week. People trained all day everyday maybe 5-6 hours a day. A sifu would teach you based on what he felt you needed to know, and if it was systematic then you were in luck. This is why you find some people doing somethings and others with no idea if thats really "wing Chun". If you were good at one thing, then you training may focus on that area or may focus on other areas to balance things.

I like the idea of a systematic method. I don't like the idea of belts.
  Lo man Kam fed uses " levels"
http://www.eastwest-wingchun.com/association/levels.php


I like this idea.
My school is very traditional we don't have levels or belts.
Its hard to enter tournaments without a ranking system.

:asian:


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## kaszodis (Jun 13, 2006)

Traditional kung fu may not have belt ranks, but they sure seem to put a lot of emphasis on "lineage." If you are not of "approved lineage" then your skills are suspect and you are not accepted.


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## profesormental (Jun 13, 2006)

The Ving Tsun Athletic Association has created a ranking system very similar to the Olympic/competition Wu Shu grading system.

It's one level per form and skill, then honorary certificates.

They are 8 certificates.

http://www.vingtsun.org.hk/news/Ranking2.HTM

For my school it is similar.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado


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## bcbernam777 (Jun 13, 2006)

kaszodis said:
			
		

> Traditional kung fu may not have belt ranks, but they sure seem to put a lot of emphasis on "lineage." If you are not of "approved lineage" then your skills are suspect and you are not accepted.


 
Belts and lineage are two different animals


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## Ali Rahim (Sep 23, 2006)

vincehardy3 said:


> I'm curious...what is the ranking structure within Wing Chun? Is there a belt ranking system within Wing Chun that is equivalent (sp) to karate? If so, what are the ranks, and their karate belt equivalent (sp)? I'm asking because I see where people hold the title "6th Level Instructor"...what does that mean?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ...


 

"The Woo Fai Ching system does not create robots.  This system does not consist of only prearranged fighting drills.  Each level is explained in great detail with an emphasis on theory and bio-mechanics.  When the theory and bio-mechanics are understood the student learns to naturally act upon reaction or be able to attack the attack completely nullifying the opponents intentions.  

There are no test or belt fees in this system.  Belts only develop a false sense of security.  Can you actually perform what you have learned.  That is the true test of your ability."


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## brothershaw (Sep 24, 2006)

kaszodis said:


> Traditional kung fu may not have belt ranks, but they sure seem to put a lot of emphasis on "lineage." If you are not of "approved lineage" then your skills are suspect and you are not accepted.




Unfortunately in chinese martial arts there is little consistency period.
Lineage while nice is no guarantee of anything. You could learn from someone who knows his stuff but either
a) doesn't teach everyone the same by choice ( to put it nicely)
b) doesn't know how to teach what he knows
c) or you arent that good for whatever reason although your teacher geniunely tries

then you could have a teacher who learned from someone who 
a) see a,b, or c above
and finally you have the frauds who know they are frauds 
so maybe more so in chinese arts than others belts, sashes, and titles mean almost nothing

if you go to karate, jujitsu or even aikido although you do run into the same problems it is EASIER to figure out if someone is any good because there is more consistency across the board in what is being taught even in its variations so it takes alot less effort to find a decent teacher/school.


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## Thewayofthewarriorispeace (Sep 25, 2006)

At my school we have ranks, but they arent dispersed in some mechanical way, there arent any "belt fees" and each person only ranks up when Sifu sees they are ready, and whatever criteria he uses I have no idea.  Somebody could stay at white sash for a year, someone else two years.  It just depends on the effort and practice I suppose. I know they arent meaningless however, because each sash seems to be relatively equal in skill with their same-sash brothers.  that is to say, the blue sashes are definetly more skillful than the green sashes, and on down the line.


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## tkdduck (Oct 19, 2006)

Going back to the earlier Question....  In no ranking system, who decides and how when someone earns the title SIFU or Master.  It appears to me to be able to have a lot more I have granted myself the Title Sifu  XYZ.  I know too many self proclaimed 5 6 7 8 degree black belts in TKD.  Sounds to me a strong possibility to due the same in most WC.   I call myself Sifu so I will open a school   etc.....  Thus the reason there are so many MCDojos


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## monji112000 (Oct 19, 2006)

This is Sigung Duncan Leung answer to a similar question:


 By tradition, one must receive permission from his own sifu to teach. This is the 21st Century, and such tradition doesn't exist any more. As far as I know, Yip Man himself did not receive permission from his own sifu (his sifu died long before Yip Man start teaching) nor had Yip Man officially given any one else permission to teach including myself except for Jiu Wan. 

I personally believe teaching others in fact helps you a lot. During your teaching you will find out that there are a lots of things that you are not too sure about or there are things that you never thought about before. Most of all teaching will help you to refresh everything you have learned in the basics. The problem is that a lot of people have found that they missed something, forget something or didn't understand something and they are afraid or ashamed to ask their sifu so, unfortunately, just make it up.

http://www.wingchunkungfu.cn/mb/index.php?task=view&tid=1643&page=1

 Sigung Duncan was a closed door diciple of Ip man.


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## Martial Arts Lover1963 (May 29, 2013)

Ed, I find it amazing that back in 2004 you had the intuition of what we've recently come up with and I invite you to please review my post on our newly developed ranking system and view the You tube feed I did.  Please remember its not fully completed but I think we're well on our way that will provide Wing Chun schools a tool they can use to provide clear goals/ curriculums for their students to get catch the vision and passion of the art.  I would like to receive as much feed back as possible from "Wing Chun" Sifus and schools all around the world so that I can help make what I proposing the best total package not only for our International Applied Wing Chun System (IAWC) but for Wing Chun/ Ving Tsun worldwide. Please pass this on to as many other Wing Chun Sifus/ schools as possible.  I will post my updates and finally drafts on the You Tube site.  Thank you again for your forsight and post.


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## WingChunIan (May 30, 2013)

tkdduck said:


> Going back to the earlier Question....  In no ranking system, who decides and how when someone earns the title SIFU or Master.  It appears to me to be able to have a lot more I have granted myself the Title Sifu  XYZ.  I know too many self proclaimed 5 6 7 8 degree black belts in TKD.  Sounds to me a strong possibility to due the same in most WC.   I call myself Sifu so I will open a school   etc.....  Thus the reason there are so many MCDojos



There are so many McDojos because people are too gullible and too eager to buy in to BS. In Wing Chun where traditionally there are no ranks it is a person's sifu who decides whether they can teach and become a sifu in their own right. Many people leave their sifu and set up on their own for a number of reasons and therefore lack the credibility of being able to identify who authorised them to teach but they can gain credibility by their own ability and their own teaching methods. The Mcdojo syndrome has nothing to do with ranking systems as it will always be possible for an individual to go out and buy a belt, print off a certificate and pronounce themselves great grand master, it is up to the customer to establish the quality of the service that they are paying for


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## Dummy (Jun 2, 2013)

I stumbled onto the most amazing thing today , writings in Chinese (with translation) that are dated at 1850 , they talk about how the wing chun system was formed , maybe this will give you some fresh insight onto whether the mentality behind Wing Chun requires the need for ranks or eliminates it altogether.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65996


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## Drunken Ronin (Jun 26, 2013)

This is 2013 not 1913. The world we live is different from Foshan or Honk Kong. This talk of tradition and lineage is nonsense for what matters is now and how you train. We should look to the past for guidance not dogma then act according to what we need.   An earlier poster commented on assessing physical competence and used the analogy of driving a car. I have been teaching PE in education for 15 years and have a decent idea of what students do well and areas for improvement. With time and experience your ability to assess anothers' physicality refines. In addition, teaching someone else deepens your own learning and understanding of something. I think each to their own. I am happy to go through the grades at my wing chun school for various reasons:  1: consistency and quality, 2: structured syllabus based on the threats of the modern world, 3: I like the pressure of having to perform to earn the 'certificate' that represents my hard work and effort, 4: if I can't perform in the pressure of a grading what hope have I when the brown stuff hits the fan outside the chip shop on a Saturday night?


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## SamAbb (Aug 27, 2013)

In reply to the opening post (I haven't read the rest of the replies, sorry), there is no universal grading/raking system in Wing Chun. Nor is there any central governing body for Wing Chun. Most people believe the Hong Kong Ving Tsun Athletic Association to be our central governing body, but this is only for Ip Man Hong Kong Wing Chun kuen derivatives, which is by far the most widespread system, but only one system nonetheless. There are many others from mainland China that have nothing to with Ip Man Hong Kong Wing Chun kuen.

The bottom line is Wing Chun is too diverse to have a universal governing body or a universal grading/ranking system. If/when a Wing Chun practitioner introduces themselves as level 'this' or level 'that', it really doesn't mean much. Any ranking systems in Wing Chun are only relevant within the school that awarded it. As soon as they move away from that school their 'rank' means precisely jack squat.

Historically and traditionally Chinese martial arts don't have ranks of any kind. Simply Sifu and student. I like the Wing Chun practitioner that simply introduces themselves by name (no ridiculous title) followed by perhaps how many years they have been training. That info and a bit of chi sao with them tells you everything you need to know.


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