# Gak sau?



## Wingsingh (Apr 27, 2013)

What are your thoughts on practicing Gak sau on a tree?


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## Wingsingh (Apr 27, 2013)

Basically It's this drill on a tree.


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## Nabakatsu (Apr 27, 2013)

Is this what you have in mind?
I don't think this training is very useful for wing chun.. doing applications and sparring and lat sau should be enough to condition your forearms in and of itself.. and in the right ways.. I think you'd be better off working on footwork and your root, and chain punches when your not able to practice with a partner.


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## mook jong man (Apr 27, 2013)

The day I see TST smashing his arms into a tree will be the day I follow suit , up until then ,no thanks.
This is an example of questionable practices from other martial arts infiltrating their way into Wing Chun training.

We depend so much on our arms for sensitivity in Wing Chun , does it really make sense to be deadening your nerves in your arms by smashing them into trees.
Just a tad counter productive isn't it?


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## Argus (Apr 27, 2013)

My thoughts are:

1. What the heck is a gak-sau?
2. Don't watch Master Wrong


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## MindWarrior (Apr 28, 2013)

Jokes aside, why would you want to harm a perfectly good tree?


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## geezer (Apr 29, 2013)

When I first started WC with a well meaning but inexperienced Si-fu, we trained a version of Saam sing. I actually practiced like that, beating my arms against tree trunks. Even after my arms toughened up some, the bark used to cut up my skin. And needless to say, my WC skills didn't improve. Shortly later, when I began training under LT, he flat out stated that Saam Sing and similar drills have _no place in WT._ These drills do not encourage the kind of "soft" flexible quality necessary to truly borrow and exploit your opponent's energy.


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## Wingsingh (Apr 29, 2013)

Nabakatsu, yeah It's that exact drill in that video.

The reason I asked the question is because I've been getting quite a few bruises from blocking punches, with either a tan sau or a bong sau and I thought would practising a drill like that help condition my arms.

I have tried it once but not at a high intensity.


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## mook jong man (Apr 29, 2013)

Wingsingh said:


> Nabakatsu, yeah It's that exact drill in that video.
> 
> The reason I asked the question is because I've been getting quite a few bruises from blocking punches, with either a tan sau or a bong sau and I thought would practising a drill like that help condition my arms.
> 
> I have tried it once but not at a high intensity.



Tell me exactly what type of punches they are , and exactly how you are using the Tan Sau and the Bong Sau to counter them.
Give me that information and maybe I can help you to do something about the clashing you are experiencing.


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## Argus (Apr 29, 2013)

Well, for one, how are you "blocking" the punches? Many Wing Chun practitioners will, I think rightly say that we do not "block." We try to divert, or redirect an attack - and if we have to take something bluntly, try to absorb it. So if you are thinking of any of these as hard blocks, that's your problem. Remember, we want to be subtle in Wing Chun; there's no need to crash into a guy's arm and knock it away. We want to move it just enough that we can take it off center and slide in.


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## wtxs (Apr 29, 2013)

Wingsingh said:


> Nabakatsu, yeah It's that exact drill in that video.
> 
> The reason I asked the question is because I've been getting quite a few bruises from blocking punches, with either a tan sau or a bong sau and I thought would practising a drill like that help condition my arms.  have tried it once but not at a high intensity.





Argus said:


> Well, for one, how are you "blocking" the punches? Many Wing Chun practitioners will, I think rightly say that we do not "block." We try to divert, or redirect an attack - and if we have to take something bluntly, try to absorb it. So if you are thinking of any of these as hard blocks, that's your problem. Remember, we want to be subtle in Wing Chun; there's no need to crash into a guy's arm and knock it away. We want to move it just enough that we can take it off center and slide in.



Well said Agus.

WC don't use force against force.  The incoming force should be deflected/diverted with the turning  Tan/Bong Sao.  The question is ... why haven't you been taught the Yu Ma ( some call it the turning stance) for this application?


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## Wingsingh (Apr 29, 2013)

Mook, we've been doing a Tan sau, Pak sau drill were our partner throws a jab cross and we use just one hand to block using a pak and than tan sau and vise a viser. While were blocking/ diverting, we're pivoting in to our 70/30 stance.
Another way we use a tan sau is to block a hook, while shifting into the our stance.


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## mook jong man (Apr 30, 2013)

Wingsingh said:


> Mook, we've been doing a Tan sau, Pak sau drill were our partner throws a jab cross and we use just one hand to block using a pak and than tan sau and vise a viser. While were blocking/ diverting, we're pivoting in to our 70/30 stance.
> Another way we use a tan sau is to block a hook, while shifting into the our stance.



Well without seeing a video of you actually doing it , I will only be guessing.
But usually the problem of clashing is caused by mainly these things.
This is assuming your pivoting is correct .

Not being relaxed : Too much tension in the arms results in having a rigid structure , we are aiming to have a flexible , resilient type of structure .
My late Sifu used to say if your arms are tense when you make contact with the opponent it is like two blocks of wood smashing together.

The angle of your arms might be incorrect : It's possible you might be intercepting the opponents strikes with your arms in a less than optimal angle.
Say for example with the Tan Sau against the hook , if the angle is too close to the body the opponents strike will meet your forearm at the wrong angle and clash with it instead of sliding harmlessly down your forearm. 
We are aiming to decelerate the opponents strike and redirect it , not stop it dead in it's tracks.

Rotating the forearm upon contact:
If the above things are already correct then usually this will be the culprit , upon the instant you make contact with the opponents strike you must rotate your forearm , this will spread the impact force over a greater surface of your arm and further decelerate the strike.
In my lineage we call this process (shearing ).

If you are still having problems doing this with strikes at realistic speed then it might be helpful to have your partner freeze frame his attack and you practice intercepting his arms with his arms in a static position , a bit like he is a wooden dummy.
Make sure you intercept and use "shearing" deflection not just smashing your arms into his arms , with the latter method who ever has the biggest arms will win.

P.S
Are you using your Tan Sau on the outside or the inside of his wrist  when he throws the straight punch ? , if you do what we call a counter-pierce movement using your Tan Sau (pinky side) on the outside of his  wrist , then make contact with his wrist with the edge of your palm and  rotate your forearm into Tan Sau.

His punch should slide down the inside of your Tan Sau , a common error is too leave out the rotation on contact which usually means the outside of his wrists will be smashing into the inside of your forearms which leads to bruising.


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## Argus (Apr 30, 2013)

I think Mook makes a good point about being tense. I was working with a good friend of mine who is newer than me, and a lot more tense, and he would often complain about his arms being bruised when I didn't feel anything. We're both quite thin, and of almost exactly the same weight, build, and height, and his positions didn't look bad either, so I don't think that was the culprit. In hindsight, I'll bet it was due to his being more tense.


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## Eric_H (Apr 30, 2013)

Wingsingh said:


> What are your thoughts on practicing Gak sau on a tree?



I trained something called Gak Ng Sing (5 star blocking) similarly to what Wong shows in his video. It left me with arthritis for the rest of my life at 19.

There's a way to do this stuff right, the method shown here isn't one of them IME.


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## Nabakatsu (Apr 30, 2013)

Being more tense would make someone of similar size, weight, bone structure ect be more likely to get hurt. Butttt.. I bet you have conditioned your forearms a bit more than he has too, and just mentally have gotten used to the contact.


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## mook jong man (Apr 30, 2013)

It's also worth noting that being tense has an adverse effect on your stance (balance) , it doesn't just cause bruises on your arms.
Next time you are in front of a wall bag , try this little experiment , deliberately tense up your whole body and throw a punch.

It will quickly become apparent to you that the force from your punch is rebounding back at you and pushing you out of your stance.
On the other hand when you execute your punch correctly , ie as relaxed as you possibly can , you will note that the wall bag absorbs the full power of the punch without any effect on your stance.

In fact when it is done properly the effect of your punch will actually push you into the ground , making your stance even stronger.
The same phenomena is at play when you make contact with the opponents attacking limbs when you are relaxed , the opponents force is absorbed and transfered down through your stance and into the floor.

When you are tense however , the tense muscles cause a "blockage" so that the opponents force can no longer be transfered .
This energy has to go somewhere and since it can't be sent down into the ground it ends up affecting your stance and balance , just like in the example where you punch the wall bag while tense.

At the very highest levels of Wing Chun skill , the opponents force can not only be absorbed and neutralised , the opponents force can be absorbed and then "bounced" right back at them.


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## HammockRider (May 1, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> At the very highest levels of Wing Chun skill , the opponents force can not only be absorbed and neutralised , the opponents force can be absorbed and then "bounced" right back at them.



 I think I see what you're saying mook jong, but Wow how do you remain relaxed in a situation where someone is trying to punch your lights out? Would you say that this kind of relaxation is a high level Wing Chun skill too? What does it take to learn that?


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## StormShadow (May 1, 2013)

HammockRider said:


> I think I see what you're saying mook jong, but Wow how do you remain relaxed in a situation where someone is trying to punch your lights out? Would you say that this kind of relaxation is a high level Wing Chun skill too? What does it take to learn that?



I would like to hear mook's answer as well but thinking about it, personally I say not fearing the outcome.  Being confident, trusting and just let it fly. Replacing worry and fear with focus.  I am just recalling from the altercations that i've been involved in and the very very very few I remained calm in.


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## yak sao (May 1, 2013)

While we wait for mook's answer, I'll throw my 2 cents worth in.

Last weekend I was training with a few guys. I was having one side blast in with a realistic, hard driving pak dar. The other side's job was to effectively defend against the attack and launch a counter offense.

One of the guys I was doing this against was having trouble. he asked me how do you determine in a split second, what is tan sau energy and what is bong sau energy?
My response to him was he is asking this question in the wrong place in his training.
The place this demon is dealt with is first in dan chi sau and then later, chi sau...not when someone is coming at you with a heavy punch, bent on caving in your chest.
Practice the chi sau drills for hours and hours. Thousands of reps, until you are absolutely sick of it.
By training this over and over, you have developed confidence in what you are capable of doing.

This is the only way you will be able to relax and face your opponent with any semblance of calmness and allow your arms to reflexively respond to the forces placed upon them.


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## mook jong man (May 1, 2013)

yak sao said:


> While we wait for mook's answer, I'll throw my 2 cents worth in.
> 
> Last weekend I was training with a few guys. I was having one side blast in with a realistic, hard driving pak dar. The other side's job was to effectively defend against the attack and launch a counter offense.
> 
> ...



Don't have too say too much really , Yak Sao's two cents worth was more like two dollars worth .
Because he hit the nail right on the head.
After you've logged up a few thousand hours worth of training you are quite comfortable dealing with heavy force , you know you can relax and not have your arms collapse in on you.

You know that you can dissolve that incoming force without too much effort on your behalf , because you have done it many ,many times before.
Of course in a real situation you will be scared , that is normal  , but scared or not you will do the technique anyway.


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## WingChunIan (May 2, 2013)

> The reason I asked the question is because I've been getting quite a few bruises from blocking punches, with either a tan sau or a bong sau and I thought would practising a drill like that help condition my arms.



try practising tan sao and bong sao correctly instead. They should intercept and redirect, not block! Oh and the dummy isn't for conditioning your arms either, in fact the pain of clashing with the dummy is a very good indication of when you are getting it wrong.


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## WingChunIan (May 2, 2013)

Argus said:


> Well, for one, how are you "blocking" the punches? Many Wing Chun practitioners will, I think rightly say that we do not "block." We try to divert, or redirect an attack - and if we have to take something bluntly, try to absorb it. So if you are thinking of any of these as hard blocks, that's your problem. Remember, we want to be subtle in Wing Chun; there's no need to crash into a guy's arm and knock it away. We want to move it just enough that we can take it off center and slide in.


Completely agree, unfortunately even this most basic concept seems to lost on some of those out on youtube


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