# Kali Impractical!!!!!!!!



## Master of Blades (Feb 20, 2003)

A TKD friend of mine just went as far as saying that Kali was an impractical art and that learning with Swords was a "Waste of Time"!!!!!!!!!  

To this I replied that it is certainly NOT a waste of time. Doing Kali has made me far more aware of my body mechanics and pain threshold then anything else. It is certainly not impractical because if you get attacked with a stick or a pole or whatever then you know that you have a chance of disarming them. And even if you dont there is always the unarmed part of Kali. Learning with Blades is certainly not a waste of time! I mean what if you get "ambushed" and need to pick up a pole to even the score. I would rather know how to use it then just swing it around. Also your reactions become a lot faster when you have a Blade coming it you rather then a fist! 

Was I wrong!!!!


----------



## pesilat (Feb 20, 2003)

I originally posted this in another thread here "Weapons Training", but it'll work here, too.

==============

Most of what I'm about to say has already been said in this thread, I think. But oh well ... here's my 2 cents.

I feel that weapons training is useful for several reasons:
1) It can help your empty hands development ... coordination is coordination
2) The principles applied with, for instance, a bo are just as applicable with a pool cue. The principles applied with a stick are just as applicable with a cane. The principles applied with a palm stick are just as applicable with a cell phone.
3) Weapons are (for most people) fun so can be a nice change of pace to keep people interested ... and if you tie the training back to 1 & 2, then it's completely practical as well. 

Training with weapons can ingrain the principles of weapon usage into your body. Then, no matter what you pick up, it can be used as a weapon.

Personally, I think one of the biggest advantages to weapons is that, unlike my body, they don't bleed or feel pain. So I'll use any inanimate object I can get my hands on if it'll help prevent me from bleeding or feeling pain.

The world is chock full of weapons. Training with weapons helps you see this and helps you understand how to use various items.

==================

So, no, I don't consider Kali to be impractical at all.

I'd guess that your friend is just parrotting what his/her instructor has said (though your friend may totally believe it, too ... but he/she has probably never studied weapons at all and probably has no real idea about them).

Mike


----------



## Kirk (Feb 20, 2003)

You'd certainly know more about Kali than I, but I thought it was
an empty handed art as well, you just learn weapons first?


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *You'd certainly know more about Kali than I, but I thought it was
> an empty handed art as well, you just learn weapons first? *



Thats right.......But I just couldnt believe he actually said something like that! I dont rate TKD as a very effective art but I would never say that to him! 

Also training with heavy weapons will increase your arm strength and if you can move pretty fast with a heavy sword or Boken.....I would hate to see how fast you move with your hands! :asian:


----------



## arnisandyz (Feb 20, 2003)

Have you sparred with him?  I use to belong to a local TKD club and one way to gain respect for your art from these types of people is to beat them at there own game (sparring).  It is hard to argue FMAs "ineffectiveness" when they experience it firsthand.  And you stand alot to gain as well,  fight as many different people from different styles as possible.

If he is your friend, convince him that FMA would be a good suppliment to his TKD.  In addition to adding a good inside game and practical weapon usage, he will gain alot by the footwork and zoning principles which will help him in TKD.  If he is not your friend, let him believe what he wants and keep Kali as your own secret Jewel.

Of course any art can be effective or ineffective depending on the individual practitioner.  I wouldn't expect anyone with a couple weeks training in FMA to take on a TKD practitioner of 10+ years (without a weapon).


----------



## Brother John (Feb 20, 2003)

Short to medium length blunt/swung weapons are the most commonly used weapons in a streetfight.
Coming in a close second is knives.
My wife is a surgical coder for a trauma doctor at an inner-city emergency room... she reads all of the reports having to do with the results of violence in the area (gangs are thick round that area too). The number of stick and or knife attacks/wounds will make a strict believer out of your 'friend'. 
Ask your Tae Kwan Do friend how 'logical' or 'practical' it is to kick someone in the head. To me kicking to the head is about as logical as punching to the foot.
Your Brother
John
:soapbox:


----------



## DoctorB (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *A TKD friend of mine just went as far as saying that Kali was an impractical art and that learning with Swords was a "Waste of Time"!!!!!!!!!
> 
> To this I replied that it is certainly NOT a waste of time. Doing Kali has made me far more aware of my body mechanics and pain threshold then anything else. It is certainly not impractical because if you get attacked with a stick or a pole or whatever then you know that you have a chance of disarming them. And even if you dont there is always the unarmed part of Kali. Learning with Blades is certainly not a waste of time! I mean what if you get "ambushed" and need to pick up a pole to even the score. I would rather know how to use it then just swing it around. Also your reactions become a lot faster when you have a Blade coming it you rather then a fist!
> ...



Igorance is a wonderful thing.... how could you be wrong if you are studying Kali and your friend is studying TKD.  I most certinly would not challenge your friend to a fight and stand out at kicking range to prove to him my Kali was superior to his TKD!  Take him to a phone booth for the fight, because Kali force you to consider long, medium and short ranges, does it not?  I have not meet too many TKD guys who handle short range fighting very well.  BTW, did you learn how to use knees, forearms and elbows?  Ask your TKD friend if he knows how to blend these anatomical tools into a fight situation.  Using a TRAINING KNIFE - check out his defenses are the three ranges.  Ignorance is a wonderful thing, but becareful that it does not get you killed.


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 20, 2003)

LOL Sparred and beaten him about 6 times.......Still doesnt get the idea :shrug:


----------



## pesilat (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *LOL Sparred and beaten him about 6 times.......Still doesnt get the idea :shrug: *



Spar him with an empty water bottle and explain that you learned the principles of using it from your Kali training with sticks and knives. A plastic water bottle should be pretty apparently a "practical" and available weapon.

Mike


----------



## Mormegil (Feb 20, 2003)

On the impractical aspect of weapon or specifically knife training... I happen to know quite a few Kali practitioners who carry small (and big) knives.  Locking folders like Spydercos etc.

So for this type of person, the weapon training isn't impractical at all.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *On the impractical aspect of weapon or specifically knife training... I happen to know quite a few Kali practitioners who carry small (and big) knives.  Locking folders like Spydercos etc.
> 
> So for this type of person, the weapon training isn't impractical at all. *



So, if I do not carry a knife I should not know how to use one or how to avoid getting cut real bad. And we all know I never would run into a mad person with a tire iron or base ball bat I should not know how to use a weapon or how to defend against one.

Knowledge is good.

Ignorance is bad.

Just my opinion.


----------



## Mormegil (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *So, if I do not carry a knife I should not know how to use one or how to avoid getting cut real bad. And we all know I never would run into a mad person with a tire iron or base ball bat I should not know how to use a weapon or how to defend against one.
> 
> 
> Just my opinion.  *



No actually.  I didn't say that.  This is merely more evidence that Kali is practical.  I'm saying it's especially even more practical for somebody who carries, as a weapon is available and can be used if necessary.


----------



## pesilat (Feb 20, 2003)

Also, I don't know the exact numbers, but statistically (at least here in the States), most assaults involve a weapon of some sort or another.

By learning to use weapons, we also learn their strengths and weaknesses which helps prepare us to defend against them.

So, statistically, if I get attacked, it will probably be with a weapon. Logically, I want to be as prepared as possible to defend myself. That means that I need to understand weapons.

Mike


----------



## Mormegil (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *Also, I don't know the exact numbers, but statistically (at least here in the States), most assaults involve a weapon of some sort or another.
> 
> 
> Mike *



I wouldn't be surprised if this is a skewed statistic, since these are probably reported assaults.  A weapon involved would make it escalate probably to the point of a police report.  There are probably a number of drunken bar room brawls that go unreported.

This isn't an argument to impracticallity of Kali, I just thought of this as I read your post, and wanted to point it out.

There are three kinds of lies in worsening order:  White lies, bald faced lies, and statistics (kidding of course, I'm a scientist)


----------



## pesilat (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *I wouldn't be surprised if this is a skewed statistic, since these are probably reported assaults.  A weapon involved would make it escalate probably to the point of a police report.  There are probably a number of drunken bar room brawls that go unreported.
> 
> This isn't an argument to impracticallity of Kali, I just thought of this as I read your post, and wanted to point it out.
> ...



LOL. Actually, I agree completely.

Personally, I hate statistics. In fact, I'm not even sure why I mentinoed them.

What I hate about statistics is that they _can_ be skewed so dramatically. It's possible to put together statistics to support or refute any point of view. Unless we know the source of the statistical data and the precise details of its gathering, the statistic is completely useless to us. It's just hearsay.

But it does look good on paper 

Very valid point about the "reported" assaults. But, like you said, not an argument against Kali at all. From my personal experience, I've been assaulted (he didn't attack, fortunately) with a knife. And I've had to disarm someone. They weren't trying to attack anyone, but they were upset and holding a piece of metal so I decided to remove the potential weapon "just in case." When I asked him to put it down, he ignored me. When I told him to put it down, he stepped into a corner to try to keep me from getting to it. I pinned his near hand to his body, reached around his body, caught his far hand (that was holding the metal rod), and disarmed him by levering the rod against the back of his leg.

So, statistics aside, I've personally been in situations where my knowledge of weapons was potentially or directly useful.

There, I like that better. Phooie on statistics! 

Mike


----------



## Zepp (Feb 20, 2003)

Master of Blades,

I hope this dope isn't a very good friend of yours- he seems very proud of his ignorance.

I primarily study TKD, but I have to say that the Kali training I have had has done nothing but widen my options in TKD sparring and in self-defense.  Simple common sense tells you that learning a weapon-based art is practical, simply because you at least learn how to defend yourself against a weapon when you are unarmed.

I like pesilat's empty water bottle suggestion.  Though if he starts talking smack, maybe you should use a full one.


----------



## pesilat (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zepp _
> *Master of Blades,
> 
> I hope this dope isn't a very good friend of yours- he seems very proud of his ignorance.
> ...



Yup. And use a "sports" bottle with the pop-up top. That way you can spray it in his face before you attack :lol:

Mike


----------



## Rich Parsons (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *No actually.  I didn't say that.  This is merely more evidence that Kali is practical.  I'm saying it's especially even more practical for somebody who carries, as a weapon is available and can be used if necessary. *




I apologize, yet I have to ask, why does FMA have to have a weapon to be effective or to be practical? Do they not have empty hand techniques that would not work against empty hands?

Nothing personal, verbally sparring about perceptions.

Looking for your response.


----------



## pesilat (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *I apologize, yet I have to ask, why does FMA have to have a weapon to be effective or to be practical? Do they not have empty hand techniques that would not work against empty hands?
> 
> Nothing personal, verbally sparring about perceptions.
> ...



LOL. FMA doesn't have to have a weapon to be effective or practical.

But the FMA, at least as I've learned it, is weapon-based. It starts with the weapons and the empty hands are derived from the weapons.

It's very concept/principal oriented. I can use the same motions with my empty hands as I do with a knife or with a stick. The effect of the weapon (my hands are weapons, too) will vary, but the motions and, more importantly, the principles of movement are the same. This means that, as the practitioner develops, there is no shift in mindset. Only a shift in range.

The empty hands in the FMA are very effective and robust. Every bit equal to any other empty hand system I've ever seen. But _everything_ in the FMA ties directly back to the weapons.

Again, this is true of the FMA I've been exposed to. There may be FMA systems out there that this isn't true of. I don't know. There are *a lot* of FMA systems out there and I've only been exposed to a handful of them.

Mike


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 21, 2003)

Tis true...............Filipino Martial Arts are mostly weapon based. They follow the idea that why be really good with your fists when you can be really good with your sword or weapon (Advantage) AND THEN good with your hands. Better to be good enough to NOT lose your weapon and then be able to do defend yourself than be good enough to fight after he has knocked the sword etc from your hand. :asian:


----------



## pesilat (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Tis true...............Filipino Martial Arts are mostly weapon based. They follow the idea that why be really good with your fists when you can be really good with your sword or weapon (Advantage) AND THEN good with your hands. Better to be good enough to NOT lose your weapon and then be able to do defend yourself than be good enough to fight after he has knocked the sword etc from your hand. :asian: *



Yup. Also, the culture the FMA evolved in was and, in large part, still is a blade culture. Blades were needed in many aspects of day-to-day life. They needed blades to get through the jungle if they weren't using a trail. They needed blades to cut their food. Etc.

Also, the Philippines have a very violent history. A lot of fighting against external aggressors and between tribes.

If I had to carry a blade on me every day just to be able to eat, then that, obviously, would be my first choice in a fight and I would, from daily usage, be very comfortable with that blade in my hand.

Mike


----------



## Kirk (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *Yup. Also, the culture the FMA evolved in was and, in large part, still is a blade culture. Blades were needed in many aspects of day-to-day life. They needed blades to get through the jungle if they weren't using a trail. They needed blades to cut their food. Etc.
> 
> Also, the Philippines have a very violent history. A lot of fighting against external aggressors and between tribes.
> ...



A guy from the Phillipines in my kenpo class said that they needed blades to defend against baboon attacks, too.  
Said hand to hand, unskilled fighter vs. baboon, baboon would
kill ya.


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *A guy from the Phillipines in my kenpo class said that they needed blades to defend against baboon attacks, too.
> Said hand to hand, unskilled fighter vs. baboon, baboon would
> kill ya. *



Wouldnt want to go up against a Baboon anyway


----------



## Kirk (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Wouldnt want to go up against a Baboon anyway  *




He said while cutting your way through jungle brush, there they
are. ... maybe it was oragutangs?  But anyways, he said once
they see you, they attack, and they're VERY strong.


----------



## Mormegil (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *A guy from the Phillipines in my kenpo class said that they needed blades to defend against baboon attacks, too.
> Said hand to hand, unskilled fighter vs. baboon, baboon would
> kill ya. *



Man, I don't know what province your friend is from, but I've never heard of baboon attacks!  Well, I guess I'm just a city boy.  By the way, it's 1 "l" and 2 "pp" - Philippines.

Anyways, one of the reasons that Kali is taught weapon first is, at lot of "Kali" today is based on "Eskrima" or at least concepts are based on "Eskrima," which can be defined (sort of), as a slightly more "modern" style developed during Spanish occupation (as oppose to Kali which is in one interpretation a catch all phrase for the pre-colonial arts).  

This style was use and developed to fight the Spanish occupation force.  It was designed to be effective very quickly, and taught relatively quickly.  It can be considered more a "soldier's" art than a "warrior's art."  That is where the numbering system tends to come from (from what I understand), as it was found in Spanish fencing, and translates well when teaching large groups to fight (as oppose to father to son kind of thing).  Secondly, when training soldiers for battle, it's best to make them as effective as possible, which means weapons.  Which means train weapons first.  The idea being an semi-skilled person with a sword is more dangerous to the enemy than a semi-skilled person with empty hands.  Try doing a raid against a garrison empty hand and see how it goes.

And as for Kali the "warriors" art, as this was used in war, between groups, weapons will also be used.  In the Japanese styles, sword styles were primarily used in war.  You have armies of sword armed people attacking each other.  They didn't use Jiu Jitsu, or Karate first, they used their swords first until they were disarmed.  Same thing here, so they train weapons first.

And I'll reiterate, Kali isn't impractical empty hand.  I was just pointing out that it shines with a weapon, this makes it even more practical.

P.S.  Not to confuse anybody, but "Eskrima" is also used as a catch all term by Visayans for blade or stick oriented FMA, as is Arnis by northerners.


Woop!  Yellow belt.  Never had a colored belt in my life!


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *He said while cutting your way through jungle brush, there they
> are. ... maybe it was oragutangs?  But anyways, he said once
> they see you, they attack, and they're VERY strong. *



Yes......they are strong enough to kill you :asian:


----------



## norshadow1 (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *So, if I do not carry a knife I should not know how to use one or how to avoid getting cut real bad. And we all know I never would run into a mad person with a tire iron or base ball bat I should not know how to use a weapon or how to defend against one.
> 
> Knowledge is good.
> ...



From what I have read, it seems that you have it just about right, Rich.  Nothing more needs to be said.

Lamont


----------



## Kirk (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *Man, I don't know what province your friend is from, but I've never heard of baboon attacks!  Well, I guess I'm just a city boy.  By the way, it's 1 "l" and 2 "pp" - Philippines.
> *



Thanks for the correction.  I can never remember how to spell it!
But it does bring up the question .. why is it called "FMA"???

At my kenpo school, we informally train in a lot of FMA flow drills,
and do stick and knife work.  A lot of disarm practice, and lock
drills too.  It's done to enhance our kenpo, and help us learn to
flow a lot quicker.   But I'm intrigued by your comment about being
taught relatively quickly.  What's a common time frame to be
considered effective in Kali?  Is it an art where a lot of technique
is taught early, and you spend all the time thereafter (as much as
one would like I suppose) improving your skills that have been
taught early?  The instructors in my school tell me that they feel
that first .. the kenpo weapons "suck" and that Kali is one of
the best weapons systems out there.  So incorporating Kenpo's
empty handed combat and multiple attacker's "dominance" with
Kali's weapons dominance works for them.  Not trying to start
anything here, that's what they tell me.  They're entitled to thier
opinion, right? (I haven't studied long enough to form an opinion)

It's something I have interest in, and am considering cross 
training if/when I ever get my b.b. in kenpo.


----------



## pesilat (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Thanks for the correction.  I can never remember how to spell it!
> But it does bring up the question .. why is it called "FMA"???*



As I understand it, the islands are called the Philippines, the people and cultural elements are Filipino/Filipina. And the language is Pilipino.

This difference arises from several factors. When the Spanish took over the north and central islands, they named the islands after their king, Philip. Which, I believe, they spelled as "Filip." The "Philippines" is an english version of the name (I think).

The ancient native tongue of the region didn't have an "F" sound and it got pronounced as "P."

If memory serves, this is the root of these different spellings.



> *
> But I'm intrigued by your comment about being
> taught relatively quickly.  What's a common time frame to be
> considered effective in Kali?  *



In my experience, someone can gain basic profiency within a few months. But this will vary from person to person and system to system because not all systems are taught the same way -- which leads to your next question.



> *Is it an art where a lot of technique
> is taught early, and you spend all the time thereafter (as much as
> one would like I suppose) improving your skills that have been
> taught early?*



Depends on the system. Some systems do a "flood" of elements and then go back and clean up the details. Others bring out one element at a time and get it relatively polished before bringing out the next element.

But, either way, the FMAs tend to be very "concept" oriented, instead of "technique" oriented. In my experience, they're taught like this (I'm sure there are exceptions among the thousands of FMA systems that I've never seen):

You learn drills to develop flow and coordination. You learn techniques and the principles that make the techniques work. Then you try to perform the techniques within the flow of the drills. This gives you a semi-resisting opponent and helps you develop your material under conditions that approach "live fire." Then you spar and pressure test your material.



> *  The instructors in my school tell me that they feel
> that first .. the kenpo weapons "suck" and that Kali is one of
> the best weapons systems out there.  So incorporating Kenpo's
> empty handed combat and multiple attacker's "dominance" with
> ...



If I understand correctly, then what you've been told kind of boils down to, "We use Kali weapon training because it's better than Kenpo weapon training, but the Kenpo empty hands are 'better' than Kali empty hands -- or that there are no Kali empty hands?"

If that's what you're being told then I would guess that there are a few possible reasons for this sentiment being put forth.

(a) they may have never delved deep enough into the Kali to have gained any understanding of the empty hand aspect of the Kali.

(b) they may have never seen Kali empty hands at all and may think it doesn't exist

(c) being Kenpoists, they may have had blinders on when it came to the Kali empty hands

(d) they may know better, but not want their students to know better

In my experience, the empty hands of Kali are very similar to those of Kali. They are both very fluid and rapid with striking. They both are very concerned with multiple opponents (though I haven't personally seen this in my very limited exposure to Kenpo, I'll take your word for it). They both tend to "smother" the opponent with strikes, traps, and locks.

Hope that was helpful.

Mike


----------



## Mormegil (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *As I understand it, the islands are called the Philippines, the people and cultural elements are Filipino/Filipina. And the language is Pilipino.
> 
> This difference arises from several factors. When the Spanish took over the north and central islands, they named the islands after their king, Philip. Which, I believe, they spelled as "Filip." The "Philippines" is an english version of the name (I think).
> ...



Just to clarify symantics:

The islands are called the "Philippine Islands" or "Philippines"

A person from the region is described in English as "Filipino" or "Filipina."  The national language is also called "Filipino" in English.  Filipino has no "F" sound, as it is based on Tagalog, a dialect native to the Manila (or Maynila) region spoken by the Tagalog people.

So a person from the region is described in Filipino as "Pilipino" or "Pilipina."  

Now, if you come to the USA, there are a lot of Filipinos who like to say "Pilipino" because either A) they have an accent, B) sounds better, C) a political statement against Anglicanization.  Some consider C silly, as the term is already European in origin.  Since there was no catch all term for the Philippines before European colonialism, there isn't a well known indigenous term around, so Pilipino or Filipino it is. 

To confuse things further, Pilipinos came to the USA back in the 20s, 30s and such, mainly to work the fields, as the National Origins act had tried up the influx of Japanese laborers, and the Chinese Exclusionary Act did the same to the Chinese immigrants.  An aspect of the Tydings-McDuffie act would also limit Pilipino immigration later.  But for these immigrants, they were Ilocano, Cebuano, Tagalog, etc.  They didn't call each other Pilipino, instead they use the term "Pinoy" or "Pinay" as a catch all for people from the Philippines.


So basically, Pilipino or Filipino... personal preferance.  Same thing in my book, but some of my old militant college friends would insist on Pilipino (note: it is NOT  Filippino, Fillipino, or even Philippino).  So I would say that's safe.  On the other hand a Pilipino friend of mine was applying for a job, and put Pilipino instead of Filipino for his ethnicity.  The interviewer insisted that he mispelled it, and said it didn't look to good.

So "FMA" stands for Filipino Martial Arts.


----------



## Mormegil (Feb 21, 2003)

Back to the question of the practicallity of weapon knowledge.  I came to the conclusion that altercations involving weapons would probably be safer handled if you have weapon training.

As such, I posted a poll in the general forum.  If you have been in an altercation, was a weapon involved, either in offense or defense?

I'm curious to see how this turns out.  Last I checked, it was 2 yes, 0 no.  Not quite statistically relevent yet.


----------



## Mormegil (Mar 18, 2003)

I thought I'd give this old thread an update.  I remember there was a general thread on weapon training.  This could apply to that one too.

I was just looking over the poll results.

Of people attacked, 13 said it involved a weapon.  7 said it did not.

So from these numbers, it seems a good chance that if you do get attacked a weapon will be involved.  I am under the opinion that training to fight with and against weapons at an early stage is a good way to become comfortable with weapons, and as such would increase your chances in an attack or assault, since they are likely to to involve a weapon.  This applies to you being armed or unarmed.

I posted a second poll, asking if you were attacked with a weapon, was it bladed or blunt.  8 out of 10 responded with bladed.  Due to the same logic as above, I would surmise that Kali training with blades or training blades would increase your chances in such an altercation.

So, no Kali training is definately not impractical, if for the weapon training if nothing else (and I think the empty hand is still pretty useful).


----------

