# Shaolin Kenpo/Kempo



## marshallbd

I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me about the difference between American Kenpo and shaolin Kenpo/Kempo under Ralph Casto.......I saw an article about him some time back and am very curious........any help would be appreciated....


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## pknox

I do know that Ralph Castro definitely teaches "Shaolin Kenpo", not "Shaolin Kempo".  "Shaolin Kempo" is the name given to the style taught by Mr. Fred Villari -- who is basically known as the king of the McDojo (whether or not that moniker is well deserved is up to you to decide, but the reputation is definitely out there, and has been for some time).

I do know that Mr. Castro, and his daughter, June, have put out a few videotapes, and, at least in the past, had integrated some JKD concepts into their style.  One thing I do know that both styles have in common is a link to Professor Chow, as both Ed Parker and Ralph Castro had studied directly under him.  Btw, Villari claims an indirect Chow link as well, which, according to them, is :

Professor Chow --> Adriano Emperado (Kajunkenbo) --> Sonny Gascon --> George Pesare --> Nick Cerio --> Fred Villari

To confuse matters even further, some of the people who broke off of Villari a few years back started calling what they teach "Shaolin Kenpo", but it has no relationship to the system of the same name taught by Ralph Castro.


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## Michael Billings

Bigger circles in Chinese Kenpo, more techniques, less articulation of principles, generally lower stances, great power (generally), way cool weapons forms, etc.  My 1st Black was in Chinese Kenpo before we moved under Mr. Parker directly.  Loved them both, and had a great foundation.  But I have found a home and a systematic approach and logical interpretation of the study of motion, primarily as it applies to fighting.  

Lots and lots more in terms of philosophy, spirituality, stylistic differences, but I think you were asking more for the physical differences.  Good resources are Dennis Conatser, Ricardo Casitillo, Seig, myself.  Ricardo is still doing a Tracy (more Chinese) system, whereas Mr. Conatser, myself and Seig moved over to American Kenpo, specifically Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate.

Hope this helps a little.  It is a short answer to a question that has been around and around.  You may want to search past threads in the Kenpo - General Forum.  There are extensive discussions.

-Michael


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## marshallbd

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *I do know that Ralph Castro definitely teaches "Shaolin Kenpo", not "Shaolin Kempo".  "Shaolin Kempo" is the name given to the style taught by Mr. Fred Villari -- who is basically known as the king of the McDojo (whether or not that moniker is well deserved is up to you to decide, but the reputation is definitely out there, and has been for some time).
> 
> I do know that Mr. Castro, and his daughter, June, have put out a few videotapes, and, at least in the past, had integrated some JKD concepts into their style.  One thing I do know that both styles have in common is a link to Professor Chow, as both Ed Parker and Ralph Castro had studied directly under him.  Btw, Villari claims an indirect Chow link as well, which, according to them, is :
> 
> Professor Chow --> Adriano Emperado (Kajunkenbo) --> Sonny Gascon --> George Pesare --> Nick Cerio --> Fred Villari
> 
> To confuse matters even further, some of the people who broke off of Villari a few years back started calling what they teach "Shaolin Kenpo", but it has no relationship to the system of the same name taught by Ralph Castro. *


 Thank you for the informative response.....I sure am getting an education here on this forum......Again thanks to all who answer my sometimes monotonous(sp?) questions.......I am seeking knowledge......


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## marshallbd

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Bigger circles in Chinese Kenpo, more techniques, less articulation of principles, generally lower stances, great power (generally), way cool weapons forms, etc.  My 1st Black was in Chinese Kenpo before we moved under Mr. Parker directly.  Loved them both, and had a great foundation.  But I have found a home and a systematic approach and logical interpretation of the study of motion, primarily as it applies to fighting.
> 
> Lots and lots more in terms of philosophy, spirituality, stylistic differences, but I think you were asking more for the physical differences.  Good resources are Dennis Conatser, Ricardo Casitillo, Seig, myself.  Ricardo is still doing a Tracy (more Chinese) system, whereas Mr. Conatser, myself and Seig moved over to American Kenpo, specifically Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate.
> 
> Hope this helps a little.  It is a short answer to a question that has been around and around.  You may want to search past threads in the Kenpo - General Forum.  There are extensive discussions.
> 
> -Michael *


 It helps greatly.....I am going through all the discussions thread by thread.....I am amazed at how many knowledgeable people are here.......I truly love this forum and plan to be a part of it through my journey in Kenpo...


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## KEMPO DAVE

From the above post one might believe that that all Shaolin Kempo is from Villari.  That is not a true statement. There are other Shaolin Kempo studios that go back to Cerio, without going through Villari.


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## pknox

> _Originally posted by KEMPO DAVE _
> *From the above post one might believe that that all Shaolin Kempo is from Villari.  That is not a true statement. There are other Shaolin Kempo studios that go back to Cerio, without going through Villari. *



Absolutely.  I never said as such.  However, the majority of studios with the "Shaolin Kempo" name are either Villari schools, or were at one time associated with the man.

Different point, but I wonder where the "Karazenpo" schools fit in -- do they come from Pesare, or are they one of the Cerio-based ones you are speaking about?


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## Zoran

This is a good link to get a general overview of some Kenpo/Kempo styles/systems


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## John Bishop

Simple Lineage


Adriano D. Emperado (created Kajukenbo)
              |
Victor Sonny Gascon  (created Karazempo Goshin Jutsu)
               |
George Pesare   (Karazempo Goshin Jutsu)
               | 
     Nick Cerio    (Cerio's Kenpo)
               |
     Fred Villari   (Shaolin Kempo)


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## CoolKempoDude

Fred Villari didn't learn DIRECTLY from prof chow ??????


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## John Bishop

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *Fred Villari didn't learn DIRECTLY from prof chow ?????? *


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by John Bishop _
> *:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: *



you didn't answer my question.

he said he learned from chow.

you pointed him to nick cerio

my question requires a simple YES or NO answer. I don't think it is hard for anybody to answer


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## pknox

No.  Villari did not learn directly from Chow.


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## pknox

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *he said he learned from chow.
> *



Who said that?  Villari himself?  In my post I talked of an indirect link, but I had no idea anyone was claiming a direct one -- if Villari is now saying that, that is definitely news to me.


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *Who said that?  Villari himself?  In my post I talked of an indirect link, but I had no idea anyone was claiming a direct one -- if Villari is now saying that, that is definitely news to me. *



His web site states this

http://www.villari.com/fvbio.htm

* During this period he and Nick Cerio corresponded and trained with Professor William K.S. Chow. Villari's approach to Kempo was to maintain the style as he learned it through Chow  *


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## pknox

Wow.  I trained in the Villari system back in the early 90's, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't making that claim then.  He had always talked about how he had trained under Cerio, but had never mentioned a direct link to Chow, especially as Professor Chow basically stopped taking students after a certain point in his life.  I find that very surprising.  However, given what I've seen Villari's organization do, I would not be surprised if that info mysteriously "appeared" after Nick Cerio's passing.

The real sad shame of it all is that the Villari system is actually a pretty good one; it deals with different ranges pretty well, and I was exposed to rudiments of things like chi kung and chin na very early in my training - something I couldn't get elsewhere at the time.  In addition, we did a fair amount of ground grappling, and that was before everyone else was doing it, so I considered that pretty unique back then.  The system can really be great if you have a good instructor, which I was fortunate to have.  Unfortunately, Mr. Villari's ethics leave a bit to be desired, and instructors are hard to retain.


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *Wow.  I trained in the Villari system back in the early 90's, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't making that claim then.  He had always talked about how he had trained under Cerio, but had never mentioned a direct link to Chow, especially as Professor Chow basically stopped taking students after a certain point in his life.  I find that very surprising.  However, given what I've seen Villari's organization do, I would not be surprised if that info mysteriously "appeared" after Nick Cerio's passing.
> 
> The real sad shame of it all is that the Villari system is actually a pretty good one; it deals with different ranges pretty well, and I was exposed to rudiments of things like chi kung and chin na very early in my training - something I couldn't get elsewhere at the time.  In addition, we did a fair amount of ground grappling, and that was before everyone else was doing it, so I considered that pretty unique back then.  The system can really be great if you have a good instructor, which I was fortunate to have.  Unfortunately, Mr. Villari's ethics leave a bit to be desired, and instructors are hard to retain. *



i was a little bit suprised when somebody here said he didn't learn directly from chow but his web site states OPPOSITE

i am NOT confused BUT people make me CONFUSED


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## pknox

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *i was a little bit suprised when somebody here said he didn't learn directly from chow but his web site states OPPOSITE
> 
> i am NOT confused BUT people make me CONFUSED *



I wouldn't spend a great deal of energy on it...basically every other source that is been presented here, and that I have seen, states that Villari was a student of Cerio, and makes no mention of a direct link with Chow.  I have read interviews with Nick Cerio where he states that he corresponded with Chow.  Is it possible that Villari's correspondence with Chow was actually through learning what Cerio had been taught?  I'm not sure.  I do know that when training in the system, we were made aware of Professor Chow, and the fact that he helped train Mr. Emperado; as Villari considers his style at least partially Kajukenbo-based (or, to clarify, I should say that he was stating that back in 1994), we were told that Professor Chow should be respected, as he was a teacher that affected our style's development.  None of my teachers, or Grandmaster Villari, ever mentioned a direct link during the time I studied in the system -- as Professor Chow was then and still is now considered a well respected martial artist, I don't know why that never would have been mentioned.  We were also made aware of the link with Cerio, but Villari always stated that his art had changed quite a bit from what he had learned from those who had taught him, and the art was now very different from Kajukenbo and various forms of American Kenpo, moving more towards the realm of a "kung fu" style of attack and movement.  Whether or not the direct link with Chow was true at the time, who knows; I am only wondering why it has not been mentioned until relatively recently.

Unfortunately, I think we may be drifting off topic, as the original question had to do with Mr. Castro.


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## John Bishop

When a renowed instructor dies, the number of students he taught usually increases by 4 times. 
Too bad he's no longer around to point out the liars.


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## rmcrobertson

Yeah, no kidding. Look at all of Mr. Parker's Personal, private, Best Beloved students who have miraculously appeared since 1990...musta been a heckuva big house in the 80s, and he must've been bringing them through in shifts...

Reminds me of Spike, saying, "You were at the Crucifixion? If all the vampires who said they were at the crucifixion were actually there, it would've been like Woodstock."


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Check out their website:

http://www.shaolinkenpo.com/

I've been to a couple of ATAMA seminars at Ralph Castro's place near San Francisco.  He is a great instructor with many great Black Belts under him (including his kids and Rick Alemany).  To me, Katas seem more Chinese than Parker's numbered sets.  Techniques are done a lot faster with less contact.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by John Bishop _
> *When a renowed instructor dies, the number of students he taught usually increases by 4 times. *



I'm surely going to be quoting this in the future.

As to Fred Villari, his name has indeed been synonymous with McDojos to me--fairly or unfairly, I cannot say.


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## Zoran

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Check out their website:
> 
> http://www.shaolinkenpo.com/
> 
> I've been to a couple of ATAMA seminars at Ralph Castro's place near San Francisco.  He is a great instructor with many great Black Belts under him (including his kids and Rick Alemany).  To me, Katas seem more Chinese than Parker's numbered sets.  Techniques are done a lot faster with less contact. *



Their FAQ makes a destinction and explains some of the misconceptions at http://www.shaolinkenpo.com/faqs.htm . Check out FAQ3



> *Q 3: Is Shaolin Kenpo the same as kempo, kenpo, kempo karate, Shaolin Kempo Karate, or American Kenpo Karate?*
> 
> A:   Some generic terms broadly identify a wide range of historically-related martial arts. Such terms include kempo and kenpo. On the other hand, Shaolin Kenpo, American Kenpo Karate, and Shaolin Kempo Karate are three of the many examples of specific, distinctive, and governed systems of martial arts.
> 
> "Shaolin Kenpo" is the name of the art developed by Great Grandmaster Ralph Castro (also called Shaolin Kenpo Karate, and Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo). On the other hand, "Shaolin Kempo Karate" was developed by Grand Master Fred Villari, while "American Kenpo Karate" was developed by the late Grand Master Ed Parker. Both Shaolin Kenpo and Shaolin Kempo Karate incorporated the name 'Shaolin' to acknowledge their inclusion of martial arts techniques whose origin was the Shaolin Temple in China.
> 
> [ The following names are trademark property of Ralph Castro: "Shaolin Kenpo", "Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo", "Shaolin Kenpo Karate", "International Shaolin Kenpo Association". In addition, the 'Shaolin Kenpo (fist)' design, the 'tiger' design, the 'dragon' design (examples of images can be found at http://www.ShaolinKenpo.com/index.html), and the 'Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo (with fist)' design, (example of image can be found at http://www.ShaolinKenpo.com/rcsk.htm) are trademark property of Ralph Castro. - All Rights Reserved. ]
> 
> All three arts have distinguished founders and lineages. As to lineage, Ralph Castro was a student of the late Great Grandmaster William Kwai Sun Chow. (Also known as 'Professor' Chow, he was the first Great Grandmaster of Shaolin Kenpo). Ed Parker was an earlier student of Professor Chow. We understand Fred Villari was a student of Nick Cerio, who was a student of George Pesare, who was a student of Sonny Gascon, who was a student of Adriano Emperado [Kajukenbo], who was also an early student of Professor Chow.
> 
> An event that confuses many today, some years ago a few martial artists broke away from the (Villari) Shaolin Kempo Karate organization. Later, some of their students misspelled the name of the (Villari) art their teachers once studied -- They misspelled it with an 'n' rather than 'm', such as Shaolin 'Kenpo' Karate, or sometimes even shortened it further to Shaolin 'Kenpo'.
> 
> Today, a few still innocently propagate this same unfortunate spelling error that was first made by their seniors. They give the impression, by misspelling the name this way, that they practice the art of (Ralph Castro's) Shaolin Kenpo. In fact, they have no connection to Shaolin Kenpo and are not from the lineage of Great Grandmaster Castro. Rather, they use the name of his art without permission. They should investigate their history and lineage, and correct their error out of respect for their lineage.
> 
> True for many martial arts styles, occasional name and style confusions (and resulting rank confusions) might ordinarily make it difficult to determine who ARE the teachers and practitioners of the art of Shaolin Kenpo. However, the International Shaolin Kenpo Association is responsible for governing Shaolin Kenpo. It has the authority to decide the status of claims about any individual's rank in Shaolin Kenpo, and the status or sanction of any school.
> 
> An irritation more often found in the larger martial arts systems is, a small number of practitioners of generic or mixed kenpo/kempo techniques (and a few, interestingly, had teachers in Great Grandmaster Ralph Castro's extensive lineage) knowingly make false claims about earning a high rank in Shaolin Kenpo. They damage Shaolin Kenpo and they dishonor themselves and their teachers. They degrade their own current organization or school with their false claims.
> 
> This Association clearly identifies the Shaolin Kenpo black belts, the instructors, and the Shaolin Kenpo schools. Historically, through recognition within the Shaolin Kenpo ranks, and more recently, through public recognition in these pages of www.ShaolinKenpo.com, the Association is quick to honor valid achievements.


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## Karazenpo

Hello to all, I think I can help out on this discussion. Pknox, you are pretty much on track from what I know and Sigung Bishop hit the nail on the head with his statement. The only documented instructor of Fred Villari is Nick Cerio. Villari's system up to around 2nd dan teaches the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu that Cerio learned from Gm. S. George Pesare prior to the advent of Nick Cerio's Kenpo (1974). The idea of adding #1 Pinan (Taikyoku shodan) came from Mr. Pesare when Mr. Cerio was still training there. Later, after Cerio left he added pinans 2-5. Hansuki, not spelled Honsuki, was a 'chosen' form of Master Bill Chun Sr. It was not mean't to be a ranking form. In other words, just for an example: you could have five black belts in Master Chun's system and only two of them could have Hansuki. Master Bill Chun Jr. can verify this. Master Chun chose Nick Cerio to teach the form to. Cerio chose his brother Frank to teach it to. When Cerio went to Florida for a period, Mr. Villari was taught this form by Frank Cerio, who was falsely under the impression it was okayed by his brother. This was not the case and the Cerios had a 'blowout' over this. Also, the Hansuki of the Villari system has been altered from its original state. Hansuki in Nick Cerio's Kenpo renamed Cat Form#5 has also been altered from original state. Cerio, contrary to what has been posted on certain websites also taught Villari somewhere around 35 numerical combinations when he left him. So, essentailly, the Villari system up to Hansuki along with the combinations and other techniques was Professor Cerio's earlier system of Karazenpo. After that Mr. Villari turns toward a more 'Chinese' flavor with his art and it becomes radically different. This starts with Sho Tung Kwok-the first of the Chinese forms he created after Hansuki. When Mr. Cerio trained with Professor Chow he brought Bill Marcierelli (spelling may be off) with him, not Fred Villari. Mr. Cerio did train for a period of time with Mr. Ed Parker, during these sessions Cerio did take Villari with him, for how many sessions, I do not know. I, too, do not agree with Mr. Villari on certain issues but to be fair and balanced Mr. Cerio did say he was a damn good black belt. Again, like the above posts stated there are some serious issues in the direction he took his organization (Villari). Here's the thing on the birth of the term-"McDojo". Back in a May, 1975 issue of Black Belt magazine, they did an indepth interview with Fred Villari. This was supposed to be a positive interview and all in all it was. Look it up if you can. However, the writer mentioned that, and I'm going to paraphrase because I'm solely going by memory: that like Mc Donald's you can see a United Studio of Self Defense (this was the original name of the chain, now Charles Mattera has taken it) in many towns and cities the meaning was supposed to be you can get quality instruction and learn good martial arts with cheap money (tuition was very affordable at this time), Villari was very upset because everyone took it to be a demeaning statement, cheap martial arts, etc. Black Belt apologized to Villari and from what I recall and I still believe I have the magazine, wrote a rebuttal of sorts to make ammends. Villari threatened a law suit. Anyway, that's how that all started. To this day, the Villari schools are a hit or miss. You can get an excellent instructor and do extremely well or not so well, if you get my drift. Pknox is again correct in saying that the system is a fine system of kempo but again, as falsely mentioned on the Villari website he did not create the four ways of fighting. That is from his Karazenpo training which came from Kajukenbo but not even Kajukenbo came up with it first. Go on the Tracy website and look for the break down, page by page, of James Mitose's book, What is Self Defense? (Kenpo Jui Jitsu) which was written in 1947 and published in 1953. Mitose explains the four ways of fighting exactly as presented on the Villari website. My insights have come from direct knowledge and personal conversations. I started my training in 1973. I had the opportunity to train under Craig Seavey, Fred Villari, Nick Cerio and S. George Pesare. By the way, when I trained with Villari back in the 70's there was a picture in the dojo of Professor Chow and one of Fred Villari in a black gi in the tiger kneeling posture stance from Hansuki. Before each class we would have to bow to Master Villari and then bow to Professor Chow who we were told was Mr. Villari's instructor. There was never a mention of Mr. Cerio. I ended up owning two of his schools before I got disgruntled at the direction the organization was heading and went independant and I still have that picture of Professor Chow. From what I was told back then Villari did indeed go to Hawaii but, again, not with Cerio. He did get to meet with Professor Chow. He did get possession of this signed picture of Professor Chow  (I heard an account of how this happened but I cannot verify it, so I don't want to say something I can't back up), in a private e-mail I will explain). Anyhow, it got back to Chow that his picture was up in all the Villari schools and he was being passed off as his instructor. Chow got it back to Villari, what was said I do not know or by whom but I can tell you this, all the Villari instructors were told to take down the pictures forthwith! One other thing before closing. There was only one man who kept this system going from its originally roots with Sijo Victor "Sonny" Gascon since its inception in 1960, it's wasn't Mr. Cerio nor Fred Villari and actually not even, in all due respect, Mr. Gascon, but Gm. S. George Pesare whom I've had the priviledge of knowing since 1978, and later help spreading it in Witchita, Kansas, his first black belt, Gm. Roger Carpenter. This fact stands undisputed even though sometimes you would think they are the unsung heroes. Remember: No George Pesare-No Nick Cerio, etc., etc. down the lineage. If I remember anything else I'll post again. If you have any questions, I will do my best to answer them.  Respectfully submitted.


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## pknox

Thank you, Joe - very interesting stuff, and from a guy who has obviously been there.


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Karazenpo _
> * Hansuki, not spelled Honsuki, was a 'chosen' form of Master Bill Chun Sr. It was not mean't to be a ranking form. In other words, just for an example: you could have five black belts in Master Chun's system and only two of them could have Hansuki. Master Bill Chun Jr. can verify this.
> *



does a student learn this BEFORE or AFTER obtaining a BB???




> *
> 
> Mr. Villari was taught this form by Frank Cerio, who was falsely under the impression it was okayed by his brother. This was not the case and the Cerios had a 'blowout' over this.
> *



'blowout' was all about why Frank taught Villari Hansuki???? Yes ???



> *
> 
> United Studio of Self Defense (now Charles Mattera has taken it) *



this is really funny because i asked my friend about this and he said you will see a picture of prof chow, nick cerios, and charles mattera at USSD's head quarter when you go there.

After seeing this picture, you can see that Charles doesn't want people to know that his *teacher* was Villari


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *
> this is really funny because i asked my friend about this and he said you will see a picture of prof chow, nick cerios, and charles mattera at USSD's head quarter when you go there.
> 
> After seeing this picture, you can see that Charles doesn't want people to know that his *teacher* was Villari *



if you don't have an opportunity to go to USSD's headquarter, click below link and you will see NO picture of Villari EXCEPT chow, nick cerio, and charles

http://www.ussd.com/lineage.asp

the picture speaks for itself


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## Karazenpo

pknox, you're very welcome. CoolKempo, yes the form is a chosen form given only to black belts. It is not used for ranking however. For example, say their were five Goshinjitsu Kai black belts of the same degree. One or two may have been 'chosen' by Master Chun to have this form for his own personal reasons. I know the variations of this form and in all other kempo systems I know of, it is used as a requirement of the ranking system, not so in Goshinjitsu Kai. 
Yes, the 'blowout' was over his brother giving the form to Mr. V. without his permission. Professor Cerio was very upset over this. This info. came from him personally to me, so there's no heresay. I got it straight from the horse's mouth, as they say.
Gm. Mattera started with Gm. Villari and stayed with him until 7th dan. Mr. Mattera received his 8th dan from Professor Cerio. I, myself, and it's just my opinion but a strong one, that one should always acknowledge those who gave you your identity or foundation in the arts. I always acknowledge who brought me to black belt and who tested me for black belt. Hanshi Craig Seavey, current 9th dan and co-head of Nick Cerio's Kenpo, signed me up, gave me my first lesson and groomed me to black belt. he gave me my identity. He sponsored me for my test.  At the time of my test on January 7, 1977, Mr. Seavey was the chief instructor of Fred Villari's United Studios of Self Defense in Framingham, Mass. It was policy that all black belts were to be tested by Mr. Villari personally in Dedham, Ma after being 'sponsored' by an instructor of a studio within the organization. I have no problem saying I was tested by Mr. Villari even though we have some political differences. It happens, but it should no way cut my original ties to him and I will say this about him. I don't know how it is now, but when I went for my test it was an all day affair (8 hours) and there was much heavy contact to put it mildly. Some flunked the test and left with their brown belts. Others were given 'honorary' black belts which mean't they were still technically brown and had to come back at a future date and take the portion of the test they were weak on over again to earn the shodan rank. So, like I said, whether you are upset with your original intructor or not, that should in no way influence you to the point where you cut him/her out of your lineage-it's just not right!  Respectfully submitted.


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## Bill Lear

> *Originally posted by John Bishop *
> 
> _When a renowed instructor dies, the number of students he taught usually increases by 4 times.
> Too bad he's no longer around to point out the liars.  _



I guess we're just gunna to have to embark on a quest to the mountains of Tebet to uncover the fabled secret of immortality that lies in the cave of the dragon beyond the forest of the tiger. That way we can *presverve* the WHOLE truth that ALL of our current Masters, Senior Masters, Grandmasters, and Great Grandmasters, and Senior Grandmasters are telling us these days.

:asian:


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## tshadowchaser

> So, like I said, whether you are upset with your original intructor or not, that should in no way influence you to the point where you cut him/her out of your lineage-it's just not right!



Well Said.
 It would be nice if everyone held to this idea.
  Politics aside and even being in a different art altogeather I still acknowledge my first formal instructor.


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## teej

I was in Hawaii several weeks before Professor Chow passed away. I did not get to meet him, but I did meet another Kenpo instructor there, I believe his name was Buell, possibly Martin Buell. I really don't remember his name, (over 15 yrs now) anyway, I believe his schools went by Universal Kenpo there on Oahu.

Anyway, this gentleman did know Professor Chow. He told me that Professor Chow sent him students. According to this man, if someone went to Professor Chow for instruction, Pro. Chow would not teach them if they had experience in any other martial art. If they had previous experience, Pro. Chow would refer them to this other instructor that I met.

I was also told by them that Pro. Chow wouldn't let anyone take pictures with him anymore because so many people we claiming to have trained with him.

I have no idea at what point in Pro. Chows life he decided not to teach anyone with previous experience, as I know earlier in his life he did train students with previous experience, but this was suppose to be his policy in the latte part of his life.

I can also tell you this. Refering to the other Kenpo instructor there on Oahu, he and his wife found it very interesting when I mentioned Villari training with Chow.

Supposedly at this point in Pro. Chow life, he was not living a very prosperous life. There were other Martial Artist doing rather well that had roots to Pro. Chow and others that made false claims to Pro. Chow. So Professor Chow had in his later years become almost reclusive.

Teej


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## Karazenpo

Yes, sir, you're on the money. I was told the same thing as far as Chow not wanting pictures taken with him due to false claims. Please refer to my previous posts where I gave a prime example(Villari) of that. No, Mr. Villari never trained with Professor Chow. To the best of my knowledge, he did visit him once and received a black & white autographed photo of the Professor. Again, I gave a thorough explaination on this in one of my previous posts and that you can take to the bank. It happened. I still have one of the copies (Chow's picture) Mr. Villari made hanging in my school, only I don't make false claims about it, lol. However, if you hear Villari trained with Mr. Ed Parker, this is true. During the mid to late 60's Professor Cerio was the Rhode Island state representative of Mr. Parker's International Kenpo Karate Association (IKKA) and received rank from the IKKA, Mr. Cerio would take Mr. Villari with him to training sessions with Mr. Parker. I was told this first hand by the late Professor Cerio. You are also right, this Villari-Chow direct link surfaced on their website after Mr. Cerio passed away. I e-mailed their website several times about correcting it but evidentally they rather perpetuate this myth. There is only one instructor that I could find that ever promoted Fred Villari and that is Nick Cerio. There is only one other renowned instructor I know of for sure that he attended several training sessions with and that was Mr. Ed Parker. The only other black belts I remember him training with first hand in the early to mid 70's were his brother-in-laws. His wife's brothers were shotokan black belts. That's it. The rest is myth and if anyone thinks differently I'd challenge them to present verfiable facts and please don't get me wrong. I'm not questioning at all Mr. Villari's knowledge and abilities or fighting prowess. I just feel he had more than enough to hang his hat or should I say belt on by being a 'Nick Cerio' black belt and attending training sessions with Mr. Ed Parker. If he wished to go on his own after that, train by himself and develop his own thing, fine, go for it. Look how many of our kenpo/kempo forefathers did the same thing. Just don't embellish and lie about it. It makes his students feel foolish when they repeat it in front of others in the know, then they become disgruntled with him. Not good.  Respectfully, Shihan Joe


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## teej

I would have to see picture of Mr. Villari and Ed Parker together. I guess it is possible, but noone in the Parker system has ever mentioned anything about Mr. Villari. In fact the guys in the Villari system do not refer to Mr. Villari as a student of Mr. Cerio. They all say that the two of them trained together.

Interesting that you mention Shotokan. Mr. Villari's wife is Chinese. The Villari people I spoke with say that her brothers are "Chinese boxers" and that Mr. Villari married into a Chinese system. If you look at his systems structure, from White to Black belt, the material definetly has a Shotokan influence. However; everything after black belt especially the higher rank black belt matterial, is all Chinese. So I would have to believe that he does have some kind of Japanese back ground as well as Chinese. None of the Villari material resembles any of the Parker Kenpo techniques or forms at all, except for the "Two Man Set" that they teach.

I do know this. Mr. Cerio did not receive rank from Ed Parker or the IKKA. Hear me out before you get mad. Mick Cerio already had a black belt and a number of schools. The IKKA was growing at the time. Mr. Cerio approached Mr. Parker about having his schools join the IKKA. Yes, Mr. Cerio was the IKKA representative in the area. Again, Mr. Cerio already was wearing a black belt rank. He asked Mr. Parker for a ceritficate from the IKKA acknowledging his rank. Mr. Cerio was given an IKKA certificate for the rank that he came to the IKKA with. Mr. Parker did not promote Nick Cerio. Anyone that tested and was promoted to any black belt rank by Mr. Parker received the "Large" size IKKA certificate. If Mr. Parker did not personally test and promote you, (ex. a Parker instructor promotes one of his own students to blk belt) the student received the smaller IKKA certificate.

If you have access to Mr. Cerio's IKKA certificate, you will see that it is one of the small IKKA certificates. Also, somewhere along the bottom of his certificate there is an expiration date or "subject to review" date. I have personally spoken to the individual that drafted Mr. Cerio's certificate up for Mr. Parker.

Let me set this straight. I am not descrediting Mr. Cerio or his abilities or what he taught in any way. I am just stating that Mr. Cerio joined the IKKA as a black belt, and that Mr. Parker never promoted Mr. Cerio to any black belt ranks. The IKKA certificate was to acknowledge Mr. Cerio as the IKKA representative in his area. Mr. Cerio did train with Mr. Parker and some IKKA lower ranks that lived on the East Coast.

Do you have any idea what styles Mr. Cerio studied besides Parker Kenpo?   Have a safe and Happy New Year.....Teej


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## Karazenpo

You know, I just wrote a nice long respectful reply to you and for some unknown reason it got lost in cyberspace so my patience are thin and I will be blunt. Where the hell did you get your information that Cerio never received rank from Parker. In 1983, CHECK IT OUT, Cerio received a 9th degree along with the title of Shihan. In the early to late 60's he received a second and third degree from the IKKA, Ed Parker's International Kenpo Karate  Association. Please get your facts straight before you post. You may check this out with Shihan John James, historian and webmater of Nick Cerio's Kenpo , Inc. or Hanshi Craig Seavey, co-head, of Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Inc. Sorry, if I seem a little teed off but I am sick and tired of people making unsubstantiated statements about Cerio after his death, so I challenge you or anyone else on these facts, prove me I'm wrong, and if not , you owe the Cerio organization an apology!!!!!!!!! I am sick of people coming on these forums like they are experts when they know nothing!!!!!!!!!! If you know someting and I am wrong call me one but before you do at least check out you statement that Parker never promoted cerio to anything and after you do ask me if you would like mustard or mayo on his 9th dan certificate when you eat it! Sorry, I'm not usually like this but I've had it with the disinformatiom in the arts!


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## Karazenpo

An excerpt from my original statement read:

If you know someting and I am wrong call me one but before you do at least check out you statement that Parker never promoted cerio to anything and after you do ask me if you would like mustard or mayo on his 9th dan certificate when you eat it! Sorry, I'm not usually like this but I've had it with the disinformatiom in the arts!

My correction is:
Sorry for the mispelling but I was on a tirad.  I mean't if you know something and I am wrong then call me on it. How can you say with conviction Parker never promoted Cerio?  You are wrong and I would appreciate it if you rectify your statement. I have seen and have direct access to the certificates, do you? I am calling you on it!!! What say you?


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## Karazenpo

Also I never said Parker and Villari had a picture together, please re-read my post! see what I mean by misinformation! I stated Parker, Cerio and Villari had several training sessions together. Hey look, I mean no disrespect to you personally but like I said earlier, it's tough when one has been there, knew these people, was involved and then years later someone who doesn't have a clue posts all this disinformatiom and the poor guy is dead and can't defend himself. It sucks! Don't you agree?


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## teej

You most certainly are correct that neither can dispute this. It was not my place to print in a public forum. For that I do  appologize.

Both men had significant impact on the arts. I did misinterpret what you wrote to mean Mr. Parker was the one that gave Mr. Cerio his black belt. Now rereading your post and others from you I see your mention of Gm. S. Pesare being his instructor as well as others before the Parker connection. Again, my appologies. I did not read all the posts under this topic.

You are correct, I do not have access to the certificates as you do. I did speak personally to the individual who printed, as per Mr. Parkers instructions, the certificate you spoke of, pertaining to this matter several years ago.

It is very possible that I might have misunderstood what was related to me, therefore I should not have put it in public forum. Again. Mr Cerio had a big impact along the N. E. He produced a strong organization which produced some high quality black belts.

Questioning Mr. Cerio's skill or abilities were never my intention. It is a shame that the good Lord has taken such men from us. Both men would still be making a big impact


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## CoolKempoDude

karazenpo,

i'm really suprised not to see your friend (Shihan John James of Nick Cerios) defend his instructor (Nick Cerios) in this forum even though Mr. James is a member of this forum.

Perhaps, you can suggest your friend (Mr James) to involve in this forum and tell everybody here about Nick Cerios's Art.

if he does that, i'm sure there will not be any more bad posts from other people who claim to be EXPERTS in the field in this forum.

Furthermore, we have a better understanding about Nick Cerios's Art history.


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## Karazenpo

teej, first of all, I have to say, I have the utmost respect for you. Anyone that can stand corrected as you stated is a stand up person and martial artist. I salute you, sir. It's not your fault, I, too, have been subject to misinformation in the past, it happens. However, in my opinion, for waht it's worth, you have shown your character, ethics and sincerity. God Bless! Sometimes I think people like you arte a dying species in the martial arts.

CoolKempo, yes, I'm sure if Shihan James sees this he will give his input but there will be no real revelation of what I've already stated and I would never state anything on a forum that I didn't have the blessings of the Nick Cerio Kenpo organization.  Respectfully, Shihan Joe

Again, teej, I really respect your response to my post and I too, apologize if I seemed a little to aggressive in my defense of Professor Cerio but he was a helluva guy and a good friend.


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## Karazenpo

Hey teej, You are right on the name, Martin Buell. He is a black belt master from the lineage of Sijo Walter Godin, co-founder of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. Godin went on to create Godin's Chinese Kenpo. Mr. Martin Buell has an excellent reputation in the arts and is headmaster of  the Universal Kenpo organization.


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## teej

I have told this story many times as I have never been treated with this kind of respect before. I don't remember the year Professor Chow passed away, but I believe he died in Oct. or Nov. and I was there in Sept.

 I was a 3rd degree in another system at the time when I stopped and and introduced myself to Martin Buell. He and his entire family were conducting class that night in an elementary school. So he stopped his class and introduced me to everyone.

Anyway, that evening I told Mrs. Buell I was leaving. She got Martin Buell from class to say bye to me. This is what I have never and will never forget. Martin Buell had one of his black belts escort me to my car. Mr. Buell told me I was their guest and that they were responsible for me until I left.

What respect and hospitality. I often think of how they treated me that evening.

Teej


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## Andrew Evans

Hi Folks, 
I have enjoyed following this thread but I want to add to Teej's previous posting. What happened upon the visit with Professor Martin T. Buell is inspirational but also par for the course. Professor Buell and all the Universal Kempo instructors I have met and/or trained with provide that level of courtesy to everyone. We should all strive to reach the high level of respect and courtesy that Professor Buell and his organization have set.
Respectfully,
Andrew


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## Karazenpo

I have come to know Andrew and now, teej, I'm coming to know you. Don't want to get 'corny', but it's guys like you that make the martial arts all worth while. I thank you for that! "Happy New Year", it's about 11:30pm  and I'm going to have a drink! and it's in honor of my kempo brothers & sisters, God Bless-2004!!!!!!


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## kenpo3631

I have read the posts concerning Mr. Parker and Mr. Cerio and I must say some good points were made. To my best recollection Mr. Cerio did come into the IKKA as a black belt and was given the small certificate, which at the time was customary for Mr. Parker to give someone coming into the IKKA as a black belt from another system. I know three such people that recieved such certificates in the early eighties here in New England.

The stipulation to having the expiration date removed or getting the "large" IKKA black belt certificate was that the practitioner had to be making an effort to study the Parker Kenpo System as well as test before Mr. Parker at the black belt testing board. As anyone can attest, Mr. Cerio's system although it uses many of the names given to the self defense techniques by Ed Parker, they do not (self defense techniques) resemble the self techniques of Ed Parker's system in any way, shape or form.

I remeber Mr. Cerio's promotion to ninth black. As I recall it was an honorary one bestowed upon him by Mr. Parker due to Mr. Cerio's devotion to the arts and his significant contributions to martial arts as a whole, it was not a ranking in the system of Parker Kenpo but a certificate bestowed by a govening body that at the time had some serious clout.

Please  do not take this as an assault on anyones character or ability, I am simply going from my recollections. I was active in the IKKA from the early eighties until 1994, I saw (and heard) allot of stuff here in New England when the IKKA was in it's infancy here.
I had the pleasure to have met both men and believe me they were both phenominal martial artists and they will forever be sorely missed.

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers. Have a safe and happy new year.:asian:


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## teej

Another bit of history for those that do not know about Ed Parkers American Kenpo Karate. (remember his life was cut short) The highest rank Mr. Parker ever "promoted" anyone to "in his" system of Kenpo" was 7th degree. Again, the good Lord needed Mr. Parker more than we did.

The IKKA was formed in the late 50's, 1956 I believe. Anyones style of Karate was allowed to join and become an IKKA member at the time. That is my understanding, but I am not an authority on IKKA history.

Heck, I don't claim to be an authority on anything. But hopefully forums like this will stimulate thought and people reading will ask further questions, research their own answers and keep the history of Kenpo/Kempo alive.

I my self have been stimulated to research and ask a lot of question this past week. (I am really glad I can leave my house again without a hat and dark glasses. lol)

A little that I have learned about the Cerio system. Mr. Cerio put the time in trainig with many reputable instructors. He formulated, structured and documented a system the way he felt certain self defense situations should be approached for todays world. Finally, he Put His Name to it. Nick Cerios' Kenpo. His own system. This was HIS system of Kenpo. He did not need anyone to promote him, it was his system.

 Mr. Parker recongnized his achivement with an IKKA 9th degree certificate. However, this was not a 9th degree in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate, but in Kenpo Karate. Ultimately, Nick Cerio's Kenpo.

One of the most nicely put together biographies I have seen can be viewed at www.nickcerioskenpo.com  view it to get a better understanding of the system he formulated, I learned from it.

Kenpo has a rich history. We need to learn it and remember to pass on. Emperado, Ed Parker, Nick Cerio, to name a few, saw a need to reformulate things for todays world. I passed an established school the other day (not a kenpo school) and this studio is now offering "close quarter combat". What the hell have they been teaching all these years??

In my limited opinion, our different forms of Kenpo/Kempo has it all to deal with todays situations. Some of the other forms of Martial Arts are seeing the light and playing catch up incorporating different aspects to their arts that OUR Kenpo pioneers realized and did years ago. So I urge you to research your form of Kenpo history. Learn why things were done the way they are. Keep your history alive. New, younger students, ask questions, get answers, train hard!

And one more thing (have to run, wife has a to do list) is this new Kenpo/Kempo magazine that is trying to get off the ground. It has possibilties to do us all good. Someone already posted that this on-line magazine will never make it. Well if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Lets' research the possiblities, e-mail the publisher ideas, and try to support it. We can make it succeed or not. (wife's pulling the plug)

Make it a good year,
Yours in Kenpo,
Teej


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## Seig

While the idea of an All-Kenpo magazine is a good one, do not forget that Martial Talk also has a magazine available for you.  For a mere $12.00 a year, you get twelve full issues, and right now, the December issue is FREE!!!!!!!!!

Martial Talk Magazine 


It's a great way to help support Martial Talk.


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