# Second only to God?



## Touch Of Death (Oct 3, 2003)

I was on another Kenpo website and the subject came up that The best Krav guy could never have defeated Mr. Parker. Does every one feel this way? Have I entered a bizaro universe in which Ed Parkers skills can never be matched by any human being and therefore one should never study any other art? However if you do choose the golden path should you never expect to surpass Ed Parker's level because after all that would be impossible for mere mortals?


----------



## Ender (Oct 3, 2003)

I think Superman might beat them all....nods


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 3, 2003)

I assume you're referring to my post on KenpoNet, and I'm afraid you're distorting it. In the context of a argument which seemed to me to be slanting towards explaining why people in kenpo had no hope of standing up against "Krav maga," I wrote that a) KM had all the advantages and all the disadvantages of a system with a sharply-restricted vocabulary and set of concepts and principles, b) KM had been another flavor of the month last year, c) an interesting thought-experiment (and about as real as those, "Robocop vs. Predator," comix) would be to imagine Mr. Parker having to take on somebody really good in KM, d) there was a problem in the discussion of confusing fighting experience with the worth of a system, e) I tended to understand that there was a big gap between myself as an amateur and any genuine professional fighter that we would all do well to understand.

At no time did I write anything that so much as hinted that Mr. Parker was a god who could do no wrong, or that kenpo endowed one with godlike powers. I believe that anybody who goes through my posts on this or any other forum will have a hard time arguing that I ever would argue such obvious silliness.

I invite anybody to check the discussion out.

Incidentally, Superman would win only under a yellow sun. Under a red giant, I believe my greater knowledge of concepts and principles would prevail.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 3, 2003)

Perhaps you should send the Israelis one of your articulate  letters that explain how Krav is just a flavor of the month. Their switching to Kenpo might just tip the scales during WWIII.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 3, 2003)

First off, I haven't seen the Israelis employing a lot of Krav Maga techniques in Palestine. I think they use jets, gunships, tanks and bulldozers and M-16s.

Second off, KM was indeed featured in "LA Magazine," TV pop shows, etc. last year. You'd have done better to point out that not only was kenpo Flava of the Month in its own time, but arguably Mr. Parker helped invent the whole idea of Martial Arts Flavaa of the Month.

And third off, you might want to try just showing me where I'm wrong. From what I know about myself, shouldn't be that hard.


----------



## WhiteTiger (Oct 4, 2003)

Not to butt in, but I must say my piece on this subject.  

First it is absolutely rediculous to compare the best of yester-year to the best of today.  How many truely Professional Martial Arts Fighters were there in the late fifties and early sixties when Ed Parker would have been in his prime? --- "NONE"

Today you have hundereds of full-time professional fighers out there which have the time and resources to condition themselves far beyond the capabilities of anyone 40 and 50 years ago.

As for KM vs Kenpo, as a Kenpoist my opinion is understandably bias, however, I have attended a KM seminar, and conducted some research on it.  In my opinion it is 85% marketing and 15%  martial arts.  As for being the "Official" combat system of the Isreali Army don't believe everything you read in a magazine add.


----------



## arnisador (Oct 4, 2003)

Thread Moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## Brother John (Oct 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Perhaps you should send the Israelis one of your articulate  letters that explain how Krav is just a flavor of the month. Their switching to Kenpo might just tip the scales during WWIII. *


Wow dude... that's a touch out of line.
Krav Maga being a flavor of the month is a fact, but not a fact that takes away from it's effectiveness.
Bruce Lee was (is past tense appropriate?) a fad; big time. But he really WAS phenominal! 

I don't see why you'd be so offended by this. Just a cursory glance thumbing through the pages of the top four martial arts magazines over the past three years will show you what the fads have been, and Krav Maga has been one.
But perhaps it earned it.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Brother John (Oct 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Incidentally, Superman would win only under a yellow sun. Under a red giant, I believe my greater knowledge of concepts and principles would prevail. *



I'd win under a full moon
with a following sea
if the Pleadies and Uranus are in alignment
and pices rising
and Saturn in it's house...

and a full can of mace in my hand.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 4, 2003)

How can I can I argue with as bunny with a pancake on its head? Krav may have aggressive marketing; however, its not as if you show up to class and spend 85 percent of your time being indroctrinated with special terms and stories about how tough this or that old timer is or used to be. Wait! What style was I talking about again?


----------



## Brother John (Oct 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *How can I can I argue with as bunny with a pancake on its head? Krav may have aggressive marketing; however, its not as if you show up to class and spend 85 percent of your time being indroctrinated with special terms and stories about how tough this or that old timer is or used to be. Wait! What style was I talking about again? *


None can argue with the flap-jack bunny!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All shall fall prey to his wiles.

Now that that's said, neither those in Kenpo nor those in Krav Maga should take their arts or their arts masters TOOOOO seriously! Take thier instruction seriously? Sure. Take your own training or that of your students seriously? You must!
But it's not worth this argumentative banter.

Kenpo: an excellent martial art, not perfect; with many excellent, good, average, mediocre (sp?) and shabby practitioners within it.

Krav Maga: an excellent martial art, not perfect; with many excellent, good, average, mediocre (sp?) and shabby practitioners within it.

Other than this
just do your best!!!

Your Brother
John

And now for another silly pic


----------



## John Bishop (Oct 4, 2003)

Actually, Krav Maga being the "Official Martial Art" of  I.D.F. (Isreali Defense Forces) is only partially true.  All I.D.F. members receive Krav Maga training in basic training, because it is very simplistic and can be learned somewhat quickly.  
The specialized units of the I.D.F. train continuesly in "Hisardut", which is a more comprehensive martial art which contains elements of Krav Maga, Jujitsu, and Kyokushinkai Karate.


----------



## KenpoDave (Oct 5, 2003)

I thought everybody knew that an art was only as good as those who practice and teach it.


----------



## MJS (Oct 5, 2003)

While I am no expert on the art, I have attended a KM seminar, and have worked on some of the material with a friend who has trained with a KM group in NY.  Here are a few things that I have found.

Pros-

1-  Strictly a combat oriented art.

2- No katas

3- Definately an awesome cardio workout.

4- The tech. are simple and many of the same movements can be applied to the same type of attack.

5- Out of all of the gun defenses that I have seen, the KM impress me the most.

6- Not really any set movements.  While there is a set movement to start the tech. once you get going, you're pretty much free to do what you want.

7- Material is pretty simple to remember.  Due to the simplicity, if you didnt practice for 3 weeks, chances are, you'd probably have no trouble re-calling the materail.


Cons-

1- Not too impressed with the knife work.  Some of what I've seen would probably get you seriously hurt.  

2- While it is hyped up very much, especially by the CA guys, if you stop and think about it, they are not really doing anything different than anyone else that owns a school would do when it comes to advertising.


Mike


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 5, 2003)

"Pros--no katas," eh? I wrote it before and I'll write it again: martial arts like this work only for a) people who already have training; b) people who are big, strong and aggressive; c) people who like to hit first.

The flip side of "it's the man, not the art," (please note--not my sexist language) is this: don't get the man's success confused with the art's value.

I liked John Bishop's details, especially given that apparently there is some reason to think that present-day kenpo may represent a streamlined version of an earlier, broader (though not necessarily more-comprehensive) martial art.

Oh--yes--the question isn't, and for me never has been, which art is superior. The question is, whether or not "krav maga," fits in as a subset of contemporary kenpo.


----------



## Brother John (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _ Oh--yes--the question isn't, and for me never has been, which art is superior. The question is, whether or not "krav maga," fits in as a subset of contemporary kenpo. [/B]



OH..
I didn't know that KM had anything to do with Kenpo really.
What's the relationship??
THanks
Your Brother
John


----------



## arnisador (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *I didn't know that KM had anything to do with Kenpo really.
> What's the relationship??
> *



See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2071


----------



## John Bishop (Oct 5, 2003)

There is no relationship between Kenpo and Krav Maga.  I wrote the first, or one of the first magazine articles on Krav Maga.  This was for "Inside Kung Fu's, Martial Arts Legend's" June 1995 issue.  
If I remember correctly the founder of Krav Maga Imi Lichtennfeld, had a background in judo, wrestling, and boxing.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 5, 2003)

Well, one way of understanding the relationship is this: krav maga,  "looks like kenpo," because kenpo offers a general theory of martial arts, so that styles such as km are special solutions (and I mean this in the sense of "general," vs. "special," relativity) of the larger system.

In other words, krav maga may represent a perfectly-valid, but restricted,  set of techniques--kenpo would be the general field from which styles such as km can be drawn.

This does not at all imply that Mr. Parker invented krav maga, any more than Darwin invented sharks.

And before anybody whomps it up, let me be clear about something else: this does not at all imply that I am capable of beating up everybody who studies km because, "I know kenpo." In the first place, kenpo and I have barely met; in the second, of course there are folks in every style there is fully capable of having the likes of me for lunch. 

Let me put it another way: I suspect that Mr. Parker was quite capable of fully understanding anything and anybody he might've seen in krav maga, and I strongly suspect that the opposite is not even close to true.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John Bishop _
> *There is no relationship between Kenpo and Krav Maga.  I wrote the first, or one of the first magazine articles on Krav Maga.  This was for "Inside Kung Fu's, Martial Arts Legend's" June 1995 issue.
> If I remember correctly the founder of Krav Maga Imi Lichtennfeld, had a background in judo, wrestling, and boxing. *



http://www.kravmaga.com/Home/History/history.html

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## arnisador (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Well, one way of understanding the relationship is this: krav maga,  "looks like kenpo," because kenpo offers a general theory of martial arts, so that styles such as km are special solutions (and I mean this in the sense of "general," vs. "special," relativity) of the larger system.
> *



One take gravity into account and the other doesn't?


----------



## MJS (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 
> 
> > *"Pros--no katas," eh? I wrote it before and I'll write it again: martial arts like this work only for a) people who already have training; b) people who are big, strong and aggressive; c) people who like to hit first.*
> ...


----------



## Brother John (Oct 6, 2003)

OK Guys...
Don't make me unleash the Bunny.

Your Brother
Tim the Enchanter


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John Bishop _
> *There is no relationship between Kenpo and Krav Maga.  I wrote the first, or one of the first magazine articles on Krav Maga.  This was for "Inside Kung Fu's, Martial Arts Legend's" June 1995 issue.
> If I remember correctly the founder of Krav Maga Imi Lichtennfeld, had a background in judo, wrestling, and boxing. *


At the risk of offending the bunny, It seems both systems have similar roots. Why are we saying one is derived from another? Kenpo has other goals and puposes that Krav is not bound too.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 6, 2003)

Oh fer...OK, I'll try again.

First. Kenpo simply offers a higher-order level of understanding. This does not mean that a system like krav maga, which from all accounts is more-restricted, will not work. Not at all. It means that kenpo explains why what works in KM works, and the opposite won't be true. It's set and subset, NOT because the two arts evolved together, but because kenpo is a more-sophisticated way of understanding what martial arts are about. Do you necessarily need that understanding to make things work? Not in the least.

Second. Sorry, and I know I wasn't there. But I don't believe for a minute that effective martial arts can be learned by ordinary men and women in the fashion KM is supposed to teach them. Do I believe that KM can help formalize what a trained fighter, or a professional already knows? Absolutely. 

Third, this has zip to do with cross-training. Why would I go study a different arts whose concepts, principles and moves are already contained within the art I currently study? I understand folks don't believe that--but I suspect you're going to be hard-pressed to come up with stuiff in KM that isn't included in kenpo. Would this be true of all other arts? Don't know. 

Fourth: again, I strongly suspect that people who don't believe in forms simply aren't interested in martial arts. They're interested in fighting, which is something altogether different. For about the nineteenth time: why do you think it was that somebody like Frank Trejo used to go out at the Internationals and sweep the forms and the sparring? I understand that lots of great fighters don't believe in forms. That's fine. I'm not interested in becoming a great fighter, never was. I'm interested in self-defense, and some other things. 

Just to be a bit provocative, here's another way to see the matter: forms allow one to understand martial arts in ways that, "just fighting," never will. Is sparring essential? Yep. Should one get hit? Yep. Is Gene LeBell tougher than me and thee? Yep.

Is sparring in a class the real thing? Nope.


----------



## MJS (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Oh fer...OK, I'll try again.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 6, 2003)

I would never wish to speak for Robert, yet what I See is that he is trying to define what he sees from other arts with the language and termonolgy he already knows. Therefore this other art or language that he is looking at, he is trying to define the words and terms and techniques from his own vocabular.

Just a thought!

Regards everyone
:asian:


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 6, 2003)

Robert,
Oh my god! I cant believe you just said that if you don't train in forms you are not a martial artist. You asked and now I will tell you. This is one of those instances where you are wrong. Forms are but one method of training your body and mind to become better. This can occur without forms. Also it can occur without learning a single pre-arranged tech. The methods varry and the results may be different but they are every bit as much of a martial artist as you are.
Sean


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tch'O'Deth _*
> Forms are but one method of training your body and mind to become better, however this can occur without forms, also it can occur without learning a single pre-arranged tech. The methods varry and the results may be different but they are every bit as much of a martial artist as anyone else.
> *



Yep, all the curriculum is, is a set of drills.... grant you I enjoy the current "exercises", drills or curriculum that I follow however it is not the end all to what could be.........

:asian:


----------



## arnisador (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Yep, all the curriculum is, is a set of drills.... grant you I enjoy the current "exercises", drills or curriculum that I follow however it is not the end all to what could be......... *



Sounds like how I view the FMA! The drills teach certain things, but they are meant to be used as a base for durther exploration.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 6, 2003)

To take things in reverse order. 

First, sorry, yes, I think the kata are essential to teaching martial arts in the sense I have in mind. However, your problem may be that we don't define, "martial arts," in the same fashion.

Second. The flaw in the logic is that training people to fight in a ring, and then testing to see whether they fight in a ring better, has nothing to do with reality "on the street." Again, I have no interest in learning to fight in a ring, a good thing considering my talents. However, I also don't believe that ring success necessarily means jack "on the street" (one of the most overused phrases in martial arts), except that--and as I've previously remarked about nineteen times--a professional fighter is very likely to kick the *** of me and thee. 

Third. The flaw in the logic here has to do with teaching. OF COURSE, ultimately, all the bits and piece of the systems are meant to drop away--for the same reason that Rembrandt quit thinking about brushstrokes after awhile. Then, you really do have what  APPEARS to be, "the system of no system." FINE. OK. GOT THAT. However, nearly always us humans need the forms, sets, techs, etc, to get anywhere near that point. When you jump the gun, you most always get mush. Or occasionally, you get someone who has become such a lethal weapon that, as Mr. Parker suggested, they might as well have gone out and bought a gun. I've no idea whether Joe Lewis is a good guy or not. I'm talking about us mere mortals. Is Gene LeBell a martial artist? Oh, hell yes. Hint: you could've blown up my arguments a lot easier, had you mentioned judo--which mostly doesn't have kata?

Fourth. There is an explicit, "plucking," applied in the extension to Raining Claw. However, it is applied to an arm, and I don't know if this is the same action mentioned as part of KM.

Fifth: as far as I can see, the "martial arts," being discussed are ring arts. I do not believe that that is the be-all and end-all of martial arts. 

Sixth: should I do more sparring? Sure. Shoul you do more forms? Probably.


----------



## arnisador (Oct 6, 2003)

Could someone explain "plucking" for me?


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Could someone explain "plucking" for me? *



If I did....... I'd have to kill ya!

:rofl:


----------



## arnisador (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *If I did....... I'd have to kill ya! *



Not by plucking me, I hope!


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 6, 2003)

My fovorte Plucking scene in a movie is when Bruce lee Ripped Chuck Norris's chest hairs In return of the Dragon.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *My fovorte Plucking scene in a movie is when Bruce lee Ripped Chuck Norris's chest hairs In return of the Dragon.
> *



Yes, he was a Hairy Bugger wasn't he! :rofl:


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Could someone explain "plucking" for me? *



LOL!  I guess you could call it pulling--as for where the plucking term came from, you got me??

With the hands around the neck from the rear, you would be grabbing the opps. hands around the thumb area, pulling down and slightly to the side.  Think about your hands returning to the side of your body, in a chambered type of position.  The same can be applied to an attack from the side.  In this case, you're only pulling the front hand.  Think of it as if you were putting on a seatbelt.  You're reaching across your body.  Front the front its pretty much the same as the one from behind.


That is the basic idea.  Of course, like anything, its easier to show rather than type it.  I hope this helped.

Mike


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *To take things in reverse order.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 7, 2003)

Well, MJS, that certainly avoided the issues. 

I'm going to skip over the issues about "the ring," and about "plucking," except to briefly note that a) I've repeatedly posted on this and other threads concerning the clear fact that the likes of me and thee would do well to avoid, "on the street," fights with the likes of Bart Vale or Joe Lewis, and b) for all the irrelevant comments, plucking as described is indeed included in the kenpo curriculum I learned. 

I notice that neither a) the comments I made about kenpo as a teaching system, or b) a method of understanding other arts seem to've gotten addressed. I also note that none of the comments seem to address the issue I addressed, the one of how students actually learn. 

All the name-calling (traditionalist! kata-doer! slavish disciple of dead kenpo god!) still won't change what I take to be the facts: a) very few people will learn self-defense without extended, and complex, training; b) big, aggressive guys and smaller, athletic and aggressive guys will have a lot of success in fighting and this does not necessarily mean that they know jack about martial arts; c) kenpo, as far as I can see, offers a more-complex and comprehensive understanding of martial arts principles and concepts.


----------



## Michael Billings (Oct 7, 2003)

I gotta love it you "slavish disciple of dead kenpo god!", you. 

-MB


----------



## arnisador (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> * So are you telling me that Mike Tyson would not be able to fight in the street??   *



Well, he broke his hand, didn't he?

Thanks for the plucking description!


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> 
> > Well, he broke his hand, didn't he?
> ...


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Well, he broke his hand, didn't he?
> 
> Thanks for the plucking description! *


Martial artist break their hands all the time. Just a thought.


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 
> 
> > Well, MJS, that certainly avoided the issues.
> ...


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 7, 2003)

Ed parker broke his foot didn't he?  Or Mike Pick accidently drove somone's teeth through his foot didn't he?


----------



## Brother John (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Ed parker broke his foot didn't he?  Or Mike Pick accidently drove somone's teeth through his foot didn't he? *


OK
OUCH!!!


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 7, 2003)

How in the heck does anybody know what box I inhabit, or how often and how carefully I peep around the edges?

I guess that's all part of that open-mindedness I keep hearing so much about.

Ah, the fantasy that newer technology is better. Faster education is better.  More-efficient study is better. The dream of speed and power...

Me n' Giles, we know better. But then, I've been a teacher for over twenty years...


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *How in the heck does anybody know what box I inhabit, or how often and how carefully I peep around the edges?
> 
> I guess that's all part of that open-mindedness I keep hearing so much about.
> ...


Actualy Robert there is a school of thought that all sujects should be taught at once in project form rather than seperatly. You've been doing the old school for twenty years but some countries are rejecting those tried and true methods as well. I say Krav is just another filter to help us understand but rejecting it for the sake of believing you are in a truer martial art is not going to help you.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by T'O'Dth _*
> Does every one feel that Ed Parkers skills can never be matched by any human being?
> *



Well, If what he [Ed Parker] accomplished wasn't so darn Logical and well laid out it would be a lot easier to dispute!  As for his personal physical skills, I think he helped many a person beyond many of his personal abilities, but few had/have his warriors heart and scholars mind in one package.

:asian:


----------



## arnisador (Oct 7, 2003)

I don't know the story about Ed Parker breaking his foot.

Mike Tyson broke his hand, I'd wager, because he used a technique he had trained--punching to the side of the head--without gloves. It goes to the "you fight the way you train" issue and hence to the issue of how one should train.


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *How in the heck does anybody know what box I inhabit, or how often and how carefully I peep around the edges?
> 
> I guess that's all part of that open-mindedness I keep hearing so much about.
> ...



I think it might have something to do with comments that were made in the past.  Keep in mind that we are talking about 2 different arts here, each with different goals and different ways to attain them.  As for KM being part of the military, and not seeing it on the battlefield--well the same could be said for the U.S. military.  They do hand to hand and yet they still are fighting with guns, jets, and tanks!!!

The idea of KM was to teach the guys empty hand skills that could be learned quickly, with little or no practice, and could still be remembered.  That was the whole idea.  In Kenpo, you're still learning H2H, or Sd skills, but the learning process is done over a longer period of time.  

As for faster education---Well, the times have changed.  People find new ways to do things every day.  I dont think that the teachers in schools and colleges are teaching today the same way they did 10 or 20 yrs ago.  Same thing with medicine.  Did they have the drugs 20 yrs ago that they do today? Of  course not.  Does it take time to learn how to do things properly? Sure, but it is not going to take you 20 yrs to learn how to defend yourself.  

Mike


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 7, 2003)

Did they have the drugs 20 years ago that they have today? Are you kiddin? I also recommend taking a peek at Hogarth's "Gin Lane," pictures. They depict the 1720s--of course, in the good ol' days we didn't let THOSE people into school.

As for teaching--sorry, but as a professional teacher, I can tell you unequivocally that there are some things about teaching that have never changed. Nor should they.

I can also tell you that there has been an increasing demand for "efficiency," (I would call it, "Taylorization") in education--and hey guess what? Surprise, surprise, surprise. It is aimed alomst entirely at the poor, the working class, the lower middle class. At Harvard? Naaaah.

I see that you agreed with me about KM being a restricted, quite possibly valid, system that operates as a subset of kenpo.

Incidentally, what's actually happened is that you've projected a fantasy of what a traditional martial artist thinks on my blank screen. I've attempted every way I can think of to explain that that ain't the case--and yet...well, go project. 

So let me recommend a book to you--actually two books, both by Herman Kauz: "A Path To Liberation," and, "T'ai Chi Handbook." Oh wait--Mr. Kauz's first art is judo, and I couldn't possibly be interested in that. Oh...how about Nigel Sutton, "Applied T'ai Chi Ch-uan?" Oh wait...I'm blinded by kenpo. Forgot.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 7, 2003)

Did they have the drugs 20 years ago that they have today? Are you kiddin? I also recommend taking a peek at Hogarth's "Gin Lane," pictures. They depict the 1720s--of course, in the good ol' days we didn't let THOSE people into school.

As for teaching--sorry, but as a professional teacher, I can tell you unequivocally that there are some things about teaching that have never changed. Nor should they.

I can also tell you that there has been an increasing demand for "efficiency," (I would call it, "Taylorization") in education--and hey guess what? Surprise, surprise, surprise. It is aimed alomst entirely at the poor, the working class, the lower middle class. At Harvard? Naaaah.

I see that you agreed with me about KM being a restricted, quite possibly valid, system that operates as a subset of kenpo.

Incidentally, what's actually happened is that you've projected a fantasy of what a traditional martial artist thinks on my blank screen. I've attempted every way I can think of to explain that that ain't the case--and yet...well, go project. 

So let me recommend a book to you--actually two books, both by Herman Kauz: "A Path To Liberation," and, "T'ai Chi Handbook." Oh wait--Mr. Kauz's first art is judo, and I couldn't possibly be interested in that. Oh...how about Nigel Sutton, "Applied T'ai Chi Ch-uan?" Oh wait...I'm blinded by kenpo. Forgot.


----------



## MJS (Oct 8, 2003)

Just so there is no misunderstanding Rob, I'm not referring to the illegal drugs, I"m talking about the ones that actually help people, not hurt them.  Another example.  Look at the way they perform a surgery.  You can't possibly tell me that the way they would operate on someone today is the same as 20yrs ago???

Mike


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 8, 2003)

Funnily enough, I worked in hospitals twenty years ago extensively. And yes, there have been technological advances. And in many ways, the upshot has been lousier and lousier, more and more impersonal, more and more expensive, more and more restricted, care.

Two examples: the increasing lack of public access to care, because medicine's so expensive that ERs and hospitals are closing everywhere; the fascination with fancy machines, while mothers and kids are left malnourished, and kids don't get vaccinated, because the machines are where the profits are.

And oh yes...while we're building this medical marvel of technology, Americans get fatter and fatter (and it is fat, nothing more subtle) and exercise less and less.

Sorry, but medical care's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. It's blue beltitis writ large...fancy tech! fancy training! fancy diet! smaller and smaller circles, faster and faster hands!...and meanwhile, their stances suck.

P.S. Apologies for any rudeness, but I am not in a particularly-good Forum mood right now, as I think OFK was quite right about Clyde.


----------



## Kenpomachine (Oct 8, 2003)

Neither tradition is so bad, nor the latest technology is the best. In kenpo is the same and we must find a point of equilibrum between both in the middle.

Keep traditions that are worthwhile but not tradition for the shake of tradition. If a tradition has no meaning nowadays, just get rid of it, but if it works and its reason to exist has a value, why abandon it? 

It's the same with novelties. Not all that is marketed as the best is the best. See around and look at your old video. Unless it was beta, it wasn't the best technology available. Or if you can remember old DOS, it wasn't also the best, Amiga and Apple both had better OS. Now, think of all the wasted time until a new better technology became fashionable.

And again, best and better are seldom an objective thing. What is best for me may not be the best for you in any grounds. So if Robert and I don't practice kenpo just to look for fights, even if they're in a ring, to convince us you have to first understand our position to develop an argument that is of some validity to us.

By the way, only time I saw an israeli security officer in action, it look like some kind of ju-jutsu with many hours of work behind it. FWIW. It was an elbow and wrist lock done in an eye blink.


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 9, 2003)

i don't know why this question is brought up. I don't know ed parker sr personally.

if prof chow's students don't claim him second to god and if mitose's students don't claim him second to god and if bruce lee's students don't claim him second to god and if kung fu master's students don't claim him second to god and if other GREAT fighter's students don't claim him second to god, we should not say thing like this


ed parker is your GGM and it's OK to have this kind of high RESPECT to your GGM.

if ed parker sr were alive today, you guys would give him a lot of problems. I'm sure other GREAT masters will CHALLENGE ed parker and Oh boy, he will be very busy fighting and NOT teaching any more


----------



## KenpoDave (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *i don't know why this question is brought up. I don't know ed parker sr personally.
> 
> if prof chow's students don't claim him second to god and if mitose's students don't claim him second to god and if bruce lee's students don't claim him second to god and if kung fu master's students don't claim him second to god and if other GREAT fighter's students don't claim him second to god, we should not say thing like this *



Actually, I think most of Bruce's disciples have claimed him god.

:shrug:


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 15, 2003)

mmm, interesting point. And then too, Mr. Mitose seems to have had a certain sway over his students--enough that he could, it seems, get one of them to climb in a window and try to kill two elderly people with a screwdriver.


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDave _
> *Actually, I think most of Bruce's disciples have claimed him god.
> 
> :shrug: *



there are 2 *him* meaning

1-If you prefer *him* to Ed parker, i wonder what is wrong with bruce's students. Why claim another GM second to god instead of their own ??? if that is the case, bruce was no good ??

2-if you prefer *him* to Bruce, i guess his students are like AK people who claim their GM second to GOD

if that is the case, i'm not suprised why Bruce died so early. Perhaps, because he was tired of all BS and garbages his students threw at ??????   :soapbox:


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *mmm, interesting point. And then too, Mr. Mitose seems to have had a certain sway over his students--enough that he could, it seems, get one of them to climb in a window and try to kill two elderly people with a screwdriver. *



why tried to kill 2 elderly people with a screwdriver ??? i thought mitose's style is about PRAYING first.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *mmm, interesting point. And then too, Mr. Mitose seems to have had a certain sway over his students--enough that he could, it seems, get one of them to climb in a window and try to kill two elderly people with a screwdriver. *


You had to go there didn't you?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *i don't know why this question is brought up. I don't know ed parker sr personally.
> 
> if prof chow's students don't claim him second to god and if mitose's students don't claim him second to god and if bruce lee's students don't claim him second to god and if kung fu master's students don't claim him second to god and if other GREAT fighter's students don't claim him second to god, we should not say thing like this
> ...


What the heck are you talking about?


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *What the heck are you talking about? *



are you sure ed parker is second only to God ????

if NO, you know what i'm talking about.
if YES, somebody else said this before " I don't blame you for NOT knowing anything but I'll tell you that you know NOTHING"


----------



## Brother John (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *You had to go there didn't you? *


Actually He (Mitose) did do that.
strange huh?
Wonder if they let him wear his 15th Degree Black Belt in the Pen.


Your Bro.
John


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Actually He (Mitose) did do that.
> strange huh?
> Wonder if they let him wear his 15th Degree Black Belt in the Pen.
> ...



what really happened ? why Mistose wanted to do that ??? pls share


----------



## Brother John (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *what really happened ? why Mistose wanted to do that ??? pls share *



From what I understand:
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I could be wrong.
Ask Doc.

Your bro.
John


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *From what I understand:
> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> I could be wrong.
> ...



2 elderly people owned Mitose $$$ and these people didn't pay and Mitose sent his students to these people's house ????

I will ask Doc about it. Thanks for the answer


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *are you sure ed parker is second only to God ????
> 
> if NO, you know what i'm talking about.
> if YES, somebody else said this before " I don't blame you for NOT knowing anything but I'll tell you that you know NOTHING" *


The answer is no; however, I still don't think we should honor our masters to the point of idolatry. You just suggested it was natural and OK. My question is what is your justification for such "respect"?
Sean


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *You just suggested it was natural and OK. My question is what is your justification for such "respect"?
> Sean *



2 things need to make

1- If you don't *love* and *respect* your GM very much, why would you tell everybody he is second ONLY to God ???

perhaps, you should ask your AK people this question because you guys started this thread

2-I DID NOT suggest anything. I try to understand why you guys said ed parker is second only to god.

If it is not because of respect, love, or whatever term you want to give to ed parker, please tell me why you guys (AK people )said Ed parker is second ONLY to god ???

if you look at this thread  (on the top ) http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=168747#post168747 ,  i had my comment about your AK people.

perhaps, isn't it a good time for you to go back and *review* it ???


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 16, 2003)

Dear Cool Kenpo Anonymous Dude:

I went and read your other post.

Now, repeat after me: "This thing of darkness I acknowledge mine."


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *
> "This thing of darkness I acknowledge mine." *



i still don't understand what it means. Can you elaborate it ???


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *i still don't understand what it means. Can you elaborate it ??? *


Here let me help. I made the original post and I have not made such a claim; so, take a bit of your own advice and reread that original post. It will make the rest of this thread go a lot smoother. People kids these days.:shrug: 
Sean


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Here let me help. I made the original post and I have not made such a claim; so, take a bit of your own advice and reread that original post. It will make the rest of this thread go a lot smoother. People kids these days.:shrug:
> Sean *



we are still communicating at different channels. Let see if you tune in channel fox news FAIR and BALANCE????? Not yet ???? where are you??? discovery channel ????.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *we are still communicating at different channels. Let see if you tune in channel fox news FAIR and BALANCE????? Not yet ???? where are you??? discovery channel ????. *


well sir,
There is your problem. You think Fox news is fair and balanced.
Sean


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *well sir,
> There is your problem. You think Fox news is fair and balanced.
> Sean *



ToD,

do not worry about my problem. I'm sure yours is GREATEST because you will have a lot of explanation to do . Why?

didn't you admit you are NOT sure if ed parker is second only to god in a response to my post in your thread??????

you are the author of "second only to god " thread and NOW YOU admit ed parker is not second only to go in your own thread.???

what happened ??? 

That is UNFAIR and UNBALANCED


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *ToD,
> 
> do not worry about my problem. I'm sure yours is GREATEST because you will have a lot of explanation to do . Why?
> ...


Lay off the skat.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 16, 2003)

Notice the question mark on that original post. That means I QUESTION that belief. Why do I bother?:shrug:


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Notice the question mark on that original post. That means I QUESTION that belief. *



SUREeeeeeeeeeeeee .


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 17, 2003)

Hey, I second that emotion, but who listens?


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Hey, I second that emotion, but who listens? *



God ??????


----------



## KanoLives (Oct 17, 2003)

WOW.


----------



## Kenpomachine (Oct 20, 2003)

Why don't you see it the other way round? Does there have to be an individual who is second to other one?
Thus, everyone of us is second only to God and have to answer to him/herself and god and no one else


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *Why don't you see it the other way round? Does there have to be an individual who is second to other one?
> Thus, everyone of us is second only to God and have to answer to him/herself and god and no one else   *



i don't dare to do that. I would leave that suggestion to PROUD AK boys and girls to follow


----------



## ThuNder_FoOt (Nov 3, 2003)

A bit late to the thread (argh, i missed the argument), But I'm still astonished that people believe that forms are bad?!?! I guess that part of the thread just kinda died out. After reading this entire thread, i HAD to post something up. 

What is wrong with forms?? Rob had some valid points about why forms are important, and I never heard any valid argument as to why not, only "don't do them". Personally I agree with Rob, they are required in order to get a better understanding. Of course one should aways spar; give and recieve contact from an opponent. But the person whom spars AND practices forms will have a better vocabulary/comprehension of techniques and fluidity of motion. Similar to a Thaiboxer only doing ring fights and NEVER shadowboxing. It all ties back to the theory of "Formless form". I suppose its all about how you look at forms though. I personally see forms as one long set of movements comprised of sub-sets. Most arts that I've come across have some type of "form-like" sets  in them, whether it's admitted or not. How else can one practice if there is no one to practice against?? without a partner? 

I'd have to say that I find alot of truth in Rob's statements. I've been in the ring myself, and the Ring is NOT fighting. It may be close, but there is waaaay to many variables in an actual fight to reproduce fighting in a controlled environment, but I'm sure *MJS* knows that already. Fighting is chaos, and therefore can't be reproduced the same exact way. 

I don't know much about KM, but it sounds like the comparison between Kenpo and KM, would be similar to that of Ju-jutsu and Brazilian ju-jutsu. 

Excuse me for re-hashing the topics from the thread that have died out. There are just sooo many controversial points in this thread that I wanted to participate in. 

:asian: :asian: 

THuNdeR_FoOT
.::FOOT CLAN::.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 3, 2003)

I don't have a problem with forms, but negative things can occur. First of all you have people doing long 5 that can barely mudlle through long 1 or short 2. That means you are training and reinforcing, with repetition, a bad motion index that will take a hell of a lot longer to unlearn than it did to learn. Just my two cents.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Nov 3, 2003)

> _Orig. posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> I don't have a problem with forms,
> 
> but negative things can occur.
> ...



:rofl:  I had to chuckle at your answer TOD, I agree with you, I don't have a problem with forms, I like them for a number of reasons.

However, in the next line you state, "but negative things can occur". 

 You go on to cite... that "PEOPLE" that are doing long 5 can barely muddle thru Long 1 or short 2!  :rofl:  I hate to break it to ya' but it's not the forms fault... but rather the <<<<<<<<<<<people or their instructors>>>>>>:rofl:  (I don't disagree that this happens but it's not the system or the forms fault is all).

Continuing you state.....
"you are training and reinforcing, with repetition, a bad motion index that will take a hell of a lot longer to unlearn than it did to learn". 

Agreed, A Question for you.. "Why is there always time to do it over,
When there is never time to do it right"!

:asian:


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *:rofl:  I had to chuckle at your answer TOD, I agree with you, I don't have a problem with forms, I like them for a number of reasons.
> 
> However, in the next line you state, "but negative things can occur".
> ...


   Here I go screwing up another post, my response is in your quote somewhere  :xtrmshock 
Sean


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Nov 3, 2003)

> _Orig posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> My response is in your quote somewhere  :xtrmshock Sean
> *



I know...


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 3, 2003)

Golden Dragon,
I was a purple belt when I joined the ARMY, one day I happened to be reading a Karate Mag and found myself standing next to that "Kimo" guy they are talking about on the other thread. He asked me if I knew long six or seven and I laughed and said no, because my instructor didn't believe in teaching advanced forms to lowerbelts. "Kimo" then explained that my instructor must not be an Ed Parker Black Belt. I was pissed and wanted to hit the guy. As It would turn this would have been the last move I made on this earth. He invited me to train at his school. I did and unfortunantly he shipped away only a few months later. That had more kenpo in his little finger than I did in my whole body and as it would turn out He only spoke with Ed Parker about an excessive contact issue in the Internationals. I still stuck with kenpo, of course, but my eyes were opened to the world a little those few months.
Sean


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Nov 4, 2003)

> _Orig posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> "Kimo" opened my eyes to the world, those few months that I spent with him.  Sean
> *



"When the student is ready, the instructor will appear"!

:asian:


----------



## MJS (Nov 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt _
> *A bit late to the thread (argh, i missed the argument), But I'm still astonished that people believe that forms are bad?!?! I guess that part of the thread just kinda died out. After reading this entire thread, i HAD to post something up.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ThuNder_FoOt (Nov 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Regarding my outlook on forms.  Do I mind doing them? No.   Are they a way to practice your punches and kicks? Yes.  Do they give you a good cardio workout? Yes.  Are there SD moves hidden in the katas? Yes.  As you can see, I listed a few positive things you get from kata.  However, I dont think that they are necessary to do in order to learn to defend yourself.  There are many arts out there that do not do kata, and yet, the students of those arts are very capable of defending themselves.  I dont think that you need to have any "special ability" to do these arts, like it is so often said by certain people here.  You dont need to have any prior training before you start JKD.  Sure, like any art, if you have prior training, it will give you an edge, but its not a requirement.  You're honestly going to look at forms and compare it to something like sparring?  Sure you can have someone 'attack' you while you're going through the moves, but IMO, you'll get better results sparring.
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry if I mis-understood your previous post, but it seemed as though you were relating the ring as actual fighting.

I'm glad you see some purpose to forms!! But I'm also sad, because you are deluded as to the true purpose of forms. With anything, some will be good, and some will be bad. But the purpose of the forms *IS* for self-defense.  If you want to learn how to fight, you have to go pick fights. But since most of us will be imprisoned or seriously damaged, we have to find other methods that will get as close as possible. Maybe our definition of "forms" are different. What is the underlining factor in which you feel forms won't help you to defend yourself??  Most arts have some type of forms (i.e. pre-arranged sets) incorporated in them. Can you name a few that don't contain some type of pre-arranged movements? when you really think about it??



> _Orginally posted by *MJS*_ :
> I dont think that you need to have any "special ability" to do these arts, like it is so often said by certain people here. You dont need to have any prior training before you start JKD. Sure, like any art, if you have prior training, it will give you an edge, but its not a requirement.



No one is saying that "special abillity" is required to perform an art. But as you said, it will give you an edge... thus making you a bit more efficient at that particular art. Just like the laws of physics, you do not need to study them to fuction, but they will give you a better understanding, which will intern cause you to function more efficiently.

:asian: :asian: 
THuNdeR_FoOT
.::FOOT CLAN::.


----------



## MJS (Nov 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt _
> 
> 
> > Sorry if I mis-understood your previous post, but it seemed as though you were relating the ring as actual fighting.
> ...


----------



## ThuNder_FoOt (Nov 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Nope, and sorry for any confusion I might have given.  It is my opinion as well as a few others that I train with, that the only way to get better at something, is to actually go and do it. *



It seems that you agree with my statement about picking fights, atleast to some degree. But then you also stated that you disagree with my statement as well when you said:



> * I have to disagree with your statement, saying that if you want to learn to fight, you need to go out and pick fights. *



So I would assume that you're in partial agreement with me?   I would also say that you would be better prepared for a fight by practicing the sequences you speak of; versus someone whom has no knowledge at all, but is it actually fighting?? no. My point is simply that fighting can not be duplicated in a controlled setting. Practicing a technique to defend yourself, and actually DEFENDING yourself with a practiced technique, are two very separate things. This is why I say, if you want to learn to fight, you must go pick fights. Like you said, there are many different variables in fighting; and they can't be duplicated in a controlled environment. The only way to touch face on some of those variables, is through the experiences of actual combat, IMHO. To add, this is why I said we must utilize sets that are a s real as possible. Even Burt Richardson, whom demonstrates very realistic practice drills; recognizes the drills as only drills.

I see that you view forms as a valuable learning tool, great!! I can agree with you on the importance factor that people place on forms. Forms alone will not teach *good* self-defense. And at times, Instructor's value the perfection of the form.... so they may stress the importance of it a little too much. If thats the case, then the form itself is not at fault, the problem lies in the ciriculum of that particluar school you speak of. Forms serve only as a supplementary tool, just as most other drills and sets. Only with the complete package can one learn more efficiently.

 :asian: :aisan:
THuNdeR_FoOT
.::FOOT CLAN::.


----------



## MJS (Nov 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt _
> *It seems that you agree with my statement about picking fights, atleast to some degree. But then you also stated that you disagree with my statement as well when you said:
> 
> 
> ...



Points well taken!   Question for you.  You mention that in order to learn to fight, you must go and pick a fight.  You mention that learning to defend yourself and then actually "defending" yourself are two different things, and yes, I agree.  My question is: If thats the case, then why take the time to learn the techs.?  If there is not a 100% confidence in what you are learning, then why bother learning it, if it might not help you?  I guess what I was trying to say when I made that comment, was, to always try to train as real as possible.  An example:  Peyton Quinn has a course in adrenal stress training.  He has an "attacker" in a padded suit.  He then has the student, which is literallly put into a very stressfull situation.  This "attacker" does everything from pushing, shoving, getting in his face, name calling, etc.  Why do this?  Of course the "attacker" isnt really going to hurt the person.  The idea is to trick the mind and body into thinking that it is a life and death situation.  Seeing that the "attacker" is padded, it allows the defender to basically go full force.

Granted, these suits are expensive and not everybody has access to them, so in that case, you need to do as much as you can to make your training sessions a productive workout.

Mike


----------



## parkerkarate (Feb 9, 2004)

My goodness.  Mr. Parker vs. anybody would be like WWIII, I do not think anyone could beat Mr. Parker at anytime. Yes I have heard stories of him getting hurt, but I have heard more stories of Mr. Parker putting holes through peoples lips. So I would feel sorry for any shmoe that would ever try to fight Mr. Parker.


----------



## 8253 (Feb 10, 2004)

Anyone can beat anyone at any time, day or place.  After all no one can be the best at any art every day.


----------



## Basicman (Feb 11, 2004)

What gets me about reading this thread is how people appear to make there Martial Art the solution to everything or the basis of other arts.  Also people talk about training like they have to "defend the village from the raiding hoard."  Especially in the United States, violent crime is not a daily common occurance for most people.  Most people in major metro areas know how to take care of themselves by using observance and advoidance.  I am not saying to give up Martial Arts, because they are fun to do.  But let's realize that doing a set self defense technique over and over again does not guarantee a successful outcome.  Actually the more complex the mpvement, the more likely you are to fail.  The nervous system gets saturated and can not handle the overload.  So basic gross movements will probably only be succesful in some one who does not spar on a regular basis.  In my experience, people who have not experinced being hit hard, freeze up.  I think people need to learn just plain basics for anything to be useful and they also need to spar.

--John


----------



## rmcrobertson (Feb 11, 2004)

Gee, I was wit' ya right up until you started the common ranking on techniques, forms, etc. 

Problem with your argument is that it will work ONLY for a blessed few. Nearly everybody needs some sort of system to learn things like getting hit, focus, etc. 

Once upon a time, much of the structure was provided by family, society, etc. The system of kenpo is there to provide much of what is no longer there, "outside," the studio, dojo, or what have you.


----------



## Michael Billings (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Basicman _
> *What gets me about reading this thread is how people appear to make there Martial Art the solution to everything ... Especially in the United States, violent crime is not a daily common occurance for most people.  Most people in major metro areas know how to take care of themselves by using observance and advoidance.  I am not saying to give up Martial Arts, because they are fun to do.  But let's realize that doing a set self defense technique over and over again does not guarantee a successful outcome.  Actually the more complex the mpvement, the more likely you are to fail.  The nervous system gets saturated and can not handle the overload.  So basic gross movements will probably only be succesful in some one who does not spar on a regular basis.  In my experience, people who have not experinced being hit hard, freeze up.  I think people need to learn just plain basics for anything to be useful and they also need to spar.
> 
> --John *



I gotta disagree.  If you look at the statistics in the United States, a Sexual Assault is occuring about once every 3 minutes, and a rape every 10.  I work in a criminal justice field and see the violence that happens all the time, not crime, actual violence.  It must be a pretty world where most people don't have to worry about assaults.  Those are the people WE call victims.

Forewarned is forearmed.

But everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and opinions.  I used to go to cocktail parties in a medium sized city.  Most of the people did not know how many violent crimes occured in thier own city.  As we talked, the ER docs at the party joined in.  It is facinating what is not reported in the papers, what never makes it on the news, and how people can live in a world naive to the dangers around them.  And YES, awareness, and preparation, statistically, reduce the chances of you being a victim.  Then again, there was the guy who broke in my back door at 2:00 in the morning, with an empty backpack and a big butcher knife.  Bad for him, I met him with a .40 cal Sig Saur, and he was not happy at all.

-Michael


----------



## howardr (Feb 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Basicman _
> *Most people in major metro areas know how to take care of themselves by using observance and advoidance.--John *



While I agreed with much of what you said up to this point, here I'm not so sure the most people in major metro areas know how to take care of themselves by using observance and avoidance. But, there's a fairly simple solution (apart from or in addition to taking a *good* martial arts class) that would provide a big chunk of the answer: read Gavin de Becker's, "The Gift of Fear".


----------



## Loki (Apr 11, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Actually, Krav Maga being the "Official Martial Art" of I.D.F. (Isreali Defense Forces) is only partially true. All I.D.F. members receive Krav Maga training in basic training, because it is very simplistic and can be learned somewhat quickly.
> The specialized units of the I.D.F. train continuesly in "Hisardut", which is a more comprehensive martial art which contains elements of Krav Maga, Jujitsu, and Kyokushinkai Karate.


Actually, that's also just partially true. "Hisardut", meaning survival, is a civilian martial art. It has rules and competitions. The army does not make use of Hisardut. 

Krav Maga is taught to every military unit, varying by need. Those who don't need it are taught Krav Maga as part of boot camp, mainly the use of a rifle as a cold weapon. The elite units are taught sentry takedowns and the sorts.


----------



## MJS (Apr 11, 2004)

Loki said:
			
		

> Actually, that's also just partially true. "Hisardut", meaning survival, is a civilian martial art. It has rules and competitions. The army does not make use of Hisardut.



Gee, thats funny.  I never heard of KM or Hisardut having competitions???  Where did you get that information???

Mike


----------



## Loki (Apr 12, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Gee, thats funny. I never heard of KM or Hisardut having competitions??? Where did you get that information???
> 
> Mike


Most KM organizations refrain from having competitions because it goes agains the idea of a no-rule fighting style.

I got the information from Haim Zut, 10th degree black belt in KM, a close friend of Dennis Hannover who invented Hisardut. Dennis also visited the instructors course I attended.


----------



## MJS (Apr 12, 2004)

Loki said:
			
		

> Most KM organizations refrain from having competitions because it goes agains the idea of a no-rule fighting style.
> 
> I got the information from Haim Zut, 10th degree black belt in KM, a close friend of Dennis Hannover who invented Hisardut. Dennis also visited the instructors course I attended.



Thanks for the reply!  

Mike


----------

