# Traditional or not?



## IcemanSK (Jan 23, 2008)

Years ago, I was told that it was "traditional" in TKD to not roll the sleeves on your dobok during class. Since then I've seen plenty of Korean & American masters & GM's roll their sleeves. I'm guessing it was just the preference of my master at the time. 

What things were you told were traditional that you later found out were just your instructor's (or someone else's) preference?


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## newGuy12 (Jan 24, 2008)

We never roll our sleeves up.  I was explicitly told once that there is no such thing as traditional TKD, only TKD.

Edit:  See, one would never see a formation of military people who were not dressed in a uniform way -- i.e., some with sleeves rolled up, some not.  I think this is to keep everyone looking nice, but I am not sure.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 24, 2008)

I also trained at a school where we rolled up our sleeves often....but never for promotion! It makes sense that it's a "uniform" thing. But I find it funny that some schools don't do it.


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## terryl965 (Jan 24, 2008)

We do not roll up the sleeve, I was always told not to so I never did. I do as my old instructor so none of my students do as well.


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## jim777 (Jan 24, 2008)

I can't honestly say its ever come up in my TKD classes. We wear a combination of traditional Gis and the TKD V neck doboks, and I always roll my sleeves way up, to the elbow basically. I like that Japanese tournament cut Gi look and feel. I wear stretch waist size 3 pants instead of the size 5 that came with all my tops as well, so I have some seriously high ankles going on as well. Basically I don't want "uniform" within 8" of my anles or wrists either in TKD or karate. 
And I could add that it drives me to distraction when I'm watching other classes and teenage karateka are standing on the backs of their pant legs because they're just a little too long.


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## turtle (Jan 24, 2008)

We were always told never to roll up our sleeves and anyone silly enough to do it, got to do push-ups. Also, the first school I trained at had no air conditioning and the black belts were required to wear the full uniform year round, while gup ranks could wear a t-shirt with their uniform pants/belt during the summer months. I guess it was some kind of sign of discipline, having to sweat through those hundred degree days in a long sleeve uniform.


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## K31 (Jan 24, 2008)

We can wear a t-shirt on sparring days or during the summer on any day. I have started wearing my dobak at all times though since this recent outbreak of antibiotic-resistant bacteria. I figure, the less of my skin that is exposed to the mats the better. I've never seen anyone roll up the sleeves on their dobak top. I've seen plenty of people with their pants legs rolled up because their uniforms need alteration. I think that's just an accident waiting to happen and I don't know why it's allowed.


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## terryl965 (Jan 24, 2008)

You know iceman another tradition I have always followed as been turning your back to your instructor when fixing the Dobok or uniform. It was always thatw ay anybody else do that.


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 24, 2008)

It has never been an issue in my classes. We generally just keep our sleeves down and no one cares. Some people choose to wear T-shirts with the school logo on it, and some people choose to wear TKD shoes instead of going barefoot. However, unless someone's choice of dressing up is a major distraction, then Sanbunim doesn't care. He just wants to make sure that we are learning the curriculum and doing everything correctly.


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> You know iceman another tradition I have always followed as been turning your back to your instructor when fixing the Dobok or uniform. It was always thatw ay anybody else do that.


 
Yeah, I hear you on that one! I was always taught to do that during my Shotokan days, and it has carried over to my TKD training. Not mandatory in my TKD classes, but I do it anyways out of respect.


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## newGuy12 (Jan 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> You know iceman another tradition I have always followed as been turning your back to your instructor when fixing the Dobok or uniform. It was always thatw ay anybody else do that.



Yes, we do this too.  And, I can only guess that its something that has come out of the Korean culture.  Its funny, all of these things I do without thinking about them (I can only speak for myself). 

We were told to turn around, away from the Instructor, to fix the belt, and so on.  I have no idea how it would give offense otherwise, but I am of course happy to comply, and quite frankly, there's something interesting to me about this.  Evidently, many TKD schools (and other MA schools too), have these rules, and I wonder how many people actually know where these things came from?

I'm not saying that I disagree with these rules, I'm only saying that it would be interesting to know the origins of some of them.

Also, when the Assistant Instructor teaches, they may stand a little to the right of the flags, not directly in front of them at the bowing time before and after the class. The Master Instructor, on the other hand, when he teaches, stands DIRECTLY in front of (and close) to the flags when we all bow in and bow out.


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## newGuy12 (Jan 24, 2008)

Also, all of this rolling up the pants, that is not acceptable.  It looks horrible, and is an accident waiting to happen.

I even think that rolling up the sleeves is in bad taste (I only speak for myself, I was taught not to do that).  But, its worse to have the pants not hemmed right.  You can trip and fall.

No, that is bad.  It should not be allowed, in my opinion.


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## Kacey (Jan 24, 2008)

We don't roll our sleeves or pants up - as newguy12 says, it's a hazard if they come unrolled, especially the pants, and it looks bad.

We also turn away from people who outrank us when adjusting our uniforms; it's a courtesy.  When someone I know asked about why you turned a particular direction, here's what he was told:  someone asked Gen. Choi about it at a seminar, and his answer was, roughly, "You see beautiful woman, and realize your zipper is down... do you face her or turn away while fix?".


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## IcemanSK (Jan 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> You know iceman another tradition I have always followed as been turning your back to your instructor when fixing the Dobok or uniform. It was always thatw ay anybody else do that.


 
Absolutely! When tying one's belt &/or adjusting uniform or belt I was taught to always to my back to a senior. I even turn my back to my students to set the example & to remind them.


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## Laurentkd (Jan 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> You know iceman another tradition I have always followed as been turning your back to your instructor when fixing the Dobok or uniform. It was always thatw ay anybody else do that.


We turn away as well, and always have.



IcemanSK said:


> Years ago, I was told that it was "traditional" in TKD to not roll the sleeves on your dobok during class. Since then I've seen plenty of Korean & American masters & GM's roll their sleeves. I'm guessing it was just the preference of my master at the time.
> 
> What things were you told were traditional that you later found out were just your instructor's (or someone else's) preference?


 
I was never told such a thing and many of us often roll our sleeves up just a time or two.  However, when our Grandmaster comes to visit (once every couple of years) the whispers go out to unroll your sleeves and it is done.  Guess it is something that my sahbonim doesn't care about, but he wants to make sure not to offend his!


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## turtle (Jan 24, 2008)

> You know iceman another tradition I have always followed as been turning your back to your instructor when fixing the Dobok or uniform. It was always thatw ay anybody else do that.



Yep, this is something I've seen in every school I've trained at. Must be pretty common from the number of positive replies here.


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## YoungMan (Jan 24, 2008)

We do not roll our sleeves up, and I will tell a student (mine or not) to unroll their sleeves if the sleeve is up. Dobok sleeves are to be unrolled.
We always turn away from a partner as well regardless of rank to fix our uniforms.
Another thing that drives me crazy: Tae Kwon Do students who bow with their fists resting on their hips. Bowing is done with the arms straight, hands rolled into fists.


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 24, 2008)

You know, I admit, those are the things I 'put up with'.  If the instruction is good, well thought out, practical, applicable, etc.. then if the instructor has particular protocol he likes, I will abide by it.

I feel that the instructor has something I want in terms of martial technique and in my quest to get as much learning from that person I can, there are individual peculiarities I will go along with in order to get the most from the class and the teaching, but I don't really think about them much one way or another.


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## YoungMan (Jan 25, 2008)

I like standardization. I like to know that for things like bowing, fixing the uniform, or being at attention, everyone does it the same. Like being in the military: if one person is wrong, it ruins the harmony.
Plus, I follow the Rudy Giuliani approach: if I let this slide, pretty soon I'll let other things slide as well.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 25, 2008)

This is pretty regular TKD methods that have to do with TKD being very para military. (regimented)  Remember back in the day when TKD was first being formalized after the Japanese occupation that it was very prominent in the military.  This I believe has alot to do with it and also with the Korean sence of everyone looking similar and no one standing out.  When practicing with my Tae Kwon Do Grand Master's I always follow these guidelines. (however in IRT it does not matter)

I have a friend who is a world class martial artist who is simply great to watch. (*simply amazing*)  Well he does not look it because what he is wearing is generally old and his pants are always unhemmed and for awhile I thought the pant thing was strange.  Yet it does not bother him one bit nor affect his movment.  *Actually he is better because of it and it is something to behold!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



*


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## newGuy12 (Jan 25, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> I like standardization. I like to know that for things like bowing, fixing the uniform, or being at attention, everyone does it the same. Like being in the military: if one person is wrong, it ruins the harmony.
> Plus, I follow the Rudy Giuliani approach: if I let this slide, pretty soon I'll let other things slide as well.



I agree whole heartedly with all of this.  And, I, for one, find a great deal of satisfaction in knowing EXACTLY how to act in a Dojang.  It gives me comfort.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> This is pretty regular TKD methods that have to do with TKD being very para military. (regimented) Remember back in the day when TKD was first being formalized after the Japanese occupation that it was very prominent in the military. This I believe has alot to do with it



I have heard this, too.  People have told me that a TKD school is run almost like a military group would be.  I like it.  It really seems to me to bolster up a unity, like a "family feeling".  I even find that feeling with other TKD people.

I have a kinship with practitioners of other martial arts, but its not the same, because they do things differently, in ways that I am not accustomed to.  But even TKD schools that are different from the one I go to are still similar enough to be "the same" as far as I can tell!

Good Old TKD! 

Always a Good Time!


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## YoungMan (Jan 25, 2008)

In fact, very few things in martial arts bother me more than Instructors who let their students decide for themselves how to wear their uniform (or what color), how to bow, how to act etc. Who's running the class you or them?


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## buddah_belly (Jan 26, 2008)

I'm starting tkd for the first time next week and uniform was one of the many questions I asked, though I didn't ask about sleeve rolling.  In aikido, I always rolled my sleeves (to get to wrists better) and my pants because I'm short and round.  I didn't realize that this was frowned upon in other arts.  I pretty much wore my pants at capri length but I did have a hakama on so you never really saw my pants.


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## K31 (Jan 26, 2008)

buddah_belly said:


> I'm starting tkd for the first time next week and uniform was one of the many questions I asked, though I didn't ask about sleeve rolling.  In aikido, I always rolled my sleeves (to get to wrists better) and my pants because I'm short and round.  I didn't realize that this was frowned upon in other arts.  I pretty much wore my pants at capri length but I did have a hakama on so you never really saw my pants.



 That's funny because I came from a Judo background and so I had my dobak pants hemmed about 3" above where I usually would. Then I noticed even the instructors were practically stepping on their pants hems. I still think shorter pants are the way to go and I watched an episode of a TV show featuring a Japanese "open hand" fighting style their pants were noticeably shorter.


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## Kacey (Jan 26, 2008)

I prefer my pants short - then I don't step on them, or catch my heels - but I do it by hemming them; rolling is frowned on for safety reasons, and most people I know where them somewhere between the ankle and mid-calf, rather than longer as would be done when wearing shoes.


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## newGuy12 (Jan 26, 2008)

Some Master Instructors that I have known had tailor made doboks, and they of course fit quite nicely.  As you look at the feet from behind, the trousers would stop about 1/2" from the floor or so, very nice looking.

I hem my pants up a little short, like Kacey does, because it would be better to be too short than too long, and I am not a tailor.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 26, 2008)

So it seemed agreed upon that rolling sleeves is traditionally not done & that we always turn around to adjust our doboks. What other things may be debatable as to whether or not they are traditional?


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## bookworm_cn317 (Jan 26, 2008)

My instructor used to roll my sleeves up, when I was younger, becuz I tended to hold them in my fists-- I was REALLY insecure back then, I'm still insecure now, but I'm getting better!

And, I've actually fixed my belt in front of a black belt(this was AFTER Jay told us we shouldn't do that): I turned away from HIM, I just forgot that there was ANOTHER one directly behind me. And that one was the one who got to discipline me(pushups, BTW). At least I can laugh about my momentary lapse of brain function now. 

But, still- stay tuned for more moments of gross stupidity from me! I seriously need to use my brain more.


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## AceHBK (Jan 26, 2008)

Kacey said:


> We also turn away from people who outrank us when adjusting our uniforms; it's a courtesy. When someone I know asked about why you turned a particular direction, here's what he was told: someone asked Gen. Choi about it at a seminar, and his answer was, roughly, "You see beautiful woman, and realize your zipper is down... do you face her or turn away while fix?".


 
I personally face her, smirk and give a lil wink.  Works everytime.  :highfive:


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## AceHBK (Jan 26, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> In fact, very few things in martial arts bother me more than Instructors who let their students decide for themselves how to wear their uniform (or what color), how to bow, how to act etc. Who's running the class you or them?


 
What is wrong with this?  I like it when your instructor asks for your opinion and gives you some leeway.  My instructor let us choose how to wear our uniforms (during summer) and was a lil open to how we acted (as long as it was disrespectful).  In return we made sure we gave him 110% in class.

The whole military style taught class doesn't do well for me (if it did i would be in the military).  In MA where everything and everyone looks the same it is nice to have your own sense of individuality.  If it is like a family then you know in a family everyone is different.


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## foot2face (Jan 26, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> So it seemed agreed upon that rolling sleeves is traditionally not done & that we always turn around to adjust our doboks. What other things may be debatable as to whether or not they are traditional?


How about the guard. I was taught to keep my hands up high, at least chin level, and relatively tight but Ive seen a lot of old school GMs with a low, well below their shoulders, wide guards. You hear a lot of complaints about how Olympic TKDist keep their hands low, just another example of how they water down the art, but I wonder if its actually more traditional than people think. It looks pretty similar to how older masters did it.


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## terryl965 (Jan 26, 2008)

foot2face said:


> How about the guard. I was taught to keep my hands up high, at least chin level, and relatively tight but Ive seen a lot of old school GMs with a low, well below their shoulders, wide guards. You hear a lot of complaints about how Olympic TKDist keep their hands low, just another example of how they water down the art, but I wonder if its actually more traditional than people think. It looks pretty similar to how older masters did it.


 
Well back in the seventies all the GM i knew keep there gaurd about chin level then in the eighties and nineties when the sport really started to take off it seem the younger fighter that was evolved in the sport started to keep the gaurd down and as they opened new schools that is what they started to teach because it was what worked for them in the sport. We all know in real life you would like some type of chin high gaurd for safety reason against your opponet.


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## foot2face (Jan 26, 2008)

I don't know Terry...I've seen plenty of old photos and video were the masters had a relatively low open guard.  I think the higher, tight guard may be a western influence.


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## K31 (Jan 27, 2008)

There was a thread about lining up. We didn't line up in any particular order under my old instructor but under our new one we are arranged in a somewhat "traditional" way with senior students on the right.


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 27, 2008)

Two questions, about 'traditional'

1) By 'traditional' do you mean "american traditional" or "korean traditional"?  I've gotten the impression that quite often westerners tend to romanticize things from the east and a lot of martial arts attitudes about protocol and such are more western inventions to add 'mystique' then actual original practices.  Are the traditions "korean taekwondo traditions" or "american taekwondo traditions"?

2) What do you mean by 'traditional'?  I guess in my mind Taekwondo, as it's own art, is still pretty young in terms of human endeavors... maybe three generations?  As people have been talking here, there seems to still be a lot of change going on in the art as the art moves from self-defense to sport and as some attempt to retain it's martial roots and application.  It seems the art is still young, still growing and changing and trying to define what it really is to be.  So I'm not sure what "traditional" means in terms of something so recent and in change?


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## terryl965 (Jan 27, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> Two questions, about 'traditional'
> 
> 1) By 'traditional' do you mean "american traditional" or "korean traditional"? I've gotten the impression that quite often westerners tend to romanticize things from the east and a lot of martial arts attitudes about protocol and such are more western inventions to add 'mystique' then actual original practices. Are the traditions "korean taekwondo traditions" or "american taekwondo traditions"?
> 
> 2) What do you mean by 'traditional'? I guess in my mind Taekwondo, as it's own art, is still pretty young in terms of human endeavors... maybe three generations? As people have been talking here, there seems to still be a lot of change going on in the art as the art moves from self-defense to sport and as some attempt to retain it's martial roots and application. It seems the art is still young, still growing and changing and trying to define what it really is to be. So I'm not sure what "traditional" means in terms of something so recent and in change?


 

FF for me and remember I can only speak for me when I say Traditional, what I'm talking about is what I saw and train in the sixty and seventies while my father was there in the military so mine is more militaey base tradition I duess. Because what I remember and such is not the same as those training in a school over there.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 27, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> Two questions, about 'traditional'
> 
> 1) By 'traditional' do you mean "american traditional" or "korean traditional"? I've gotten the impression that quite often westerners tend to romanticize things from the east and a lot of martial arts attitudes about protocol and such are more western inventions to add 'mystique' then actual original practices. Are the traditions "korean taekwondo traditions" or "american taekwondo traditions"?
> 
> 2) What do you mean by 'traditional'? I guess in my mind Taekwondo, as it's own art, is still pretty young in terms of human endeavors... maybe three generations? As people have been talking here, there seems to still be a lot of change going on in the art as the art moves from self-defense to sport and as some attempt to retain it's martial roots and application. It seems the art is still young, still growing and changing and trying to define what it really is to be. So I'm not sure what "traditional" means in terms of something so recent and in change?


 
I kept it open to mean what any of us understand traditional to mean. I did this because there are some things a school will call traditional when it really is a preference of a certain instructor. For example: a JiDo Kwan school may say it's "traditional" for all schools to has a JDK patch on the left chest of the uniform. In reality, it may only be a tradition for that school.


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## YoungMan (Jan 27, 2008)

For me, traditional Tae Kwon Do carries two cannotations:
1. Incorporation of the three schools of Oriental thought-Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism, as well as traditional Korean philosophy.

2. Incorporation of the military etiquette from when Chung Do Kwan was a police/military-based style.

I have no idea what "American traditional" is, unless you count colored uniforms and bad manners.


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 27, 2008)

_
I have no idea what "American traditional" is, unless you count colored uniforms and bad manners._

Well for example I've heard that American attitudes about what a "black belt" is being more stringent than Korean, coming from a rather more 'romanticized' view of what a black belt is here.

However a more direct example was that when I was in DC for six months I trained at a dojang where the head instructor was an old 7th dan Korean man who barely spoke any English because he'd been in the country only about nine years and spent all his time in the Korean community, but some of the practices mentioned here as 'traditional' were nowhere in sight.  Which means that either he dropped them, or the 'traditional' practices are not quite as traditional, or universal.  Which had me wondering how many 'traditional' protocol elements would've been found in a Korean dojang 40 years ago, or today, and how many were added as the art moved west.

But then, I've never seen two dojangs do the same things the same way which kinda makes me think that 'traditional' is applied as 'we traditionally do this...' where the 'we' means "our school since it was started" and not "Taekwondo going back generations"


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## YoungMan (Jan 27, 2008)

My view of "traditional" is based on how we incorporated it. As far as I know, the militaristic etiquette (lining up) is a throwback to the days when TKD was used primarily by the military 40-50 years ago. I would also add the ethos of the Hwa Rang warriors from 1500 years ago.
Everything else is an incorporation of the three schools of Oriental thought I mentioned previously. We have never incorporated American tradition in our practice, although if you want to count handshakes and using the American flag in bowing I suppose you could.
I firmly believe if you remove these principles, you remove what makes Tae Kwon Do what it is.


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 28, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> My view of "traditional" is based on how we incorporated it. As far as I know, the militaristic etiquette (lining up) is a throwback to the days when TKD was used primarily by the military 40-50 years ago. I would also add the ethos of the Hwa Rang warriors from 1500 years ago.
> Everything else is an incorporation of the three schools of Oriental thought I mentioned previously. We have never incorporated American tradition in our practice, although if you want to count handshakes and using the American flag in bowing I suppose you could.
> I firmly believe if you remove these principles, you remove what makes Tae Kwon Do what it is.



I actually pretty strongly disagree with this on both counts.

First, I've been a Christian a lot longer than I've practiced Tae Kwon Do, so my own spiritual, philosophical and metaphysical belief structure is already well founded and as a result, I have little interest in martial arts for any over tones of Oriental thought.

Secondly, we are not in the military.   I've been in the US Military and can understand and appreciate the need for conformity and uniformity in dealing in a military structure, especially in the context of trying to keep several hundred people organized and in line and moving as a unit.  But most of us don't live in that world.  A certain amount of order and cohesion is needed when attempting to organize a roomful of 20 or so students, but most of us in the dojang are not learning to work, act, and think as a unit and we don't [need to] carry that mindset out of the dojang.  A marching band needs to learn to march as a single unit of cohesion, an orchestra is coordinated following one timekeeper, but a jazz band, while it needs to be tight, it's a completely different thing, a different mindset in terms of how to be co-ordinated in a group.  Even that is a weak analogy because when I'm training in Taekwondo I'm not training coordinated moves in a team but just personal self-defense.

So to me things like sleeves rolled up or not or turning away from a senior to adjust your uniform or other protocol aspects fall under "well that's what the instructor uses to maintain order in a small group setting" but they have little to do with whether or not I'm improving the effectiveness of a sidekick, so as long as they don't interfere with that, then I go along.  but ultimately, I'm not training to be in the South Korean army and I'm not training to improve my "Oriental thought", I'm just training to be better at protecting myself and along the way I get in better shape and have some fun.  If by "traditional Taekwondo" one means "a more effective well rounded means of personal self-defense" then I'm all for it.  If by "traditional Taekwondo" one means "imitating a militaristic mindset and practice from a culture and time completely alien to me", sorry, not interested


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## buddah_belly (Jan 28, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> If by "traditional Taekwondo" one means "imitating a militaristic mindset and practice from a culture and time completely alien to me", sorry, not interested


 
I tend to agree with you there.  When I did Aikido I had these delusions of spiritual granduer.  I used to think that I did martial arts because the enemy is me.  The enemy is still me, but martial arts don't fix that.  My demons always seem to come out on the mat, but aikido never fixed them.  That's my job.  

Now I do martial arts because it's fun.  I like to hit stuff and I like to kick stuff.  It's good exercise and it's fun.  Nothing more, nothing less.  I don't mind following the instructor's rules (which sound pretty relaxed compared to some of what I've read here...we only have to wear dobok for testing and promotion).  I suppose if you are doing a competition type deal where a whole herd of people do the same thing (like syncronized swimming only no water...lol...) then maybe.  I guess I'm just used to training in very small groups (classes of less than ten) and it's a more relaxed atmosphere.  I don't think one is better than the other but if I wanted to be in the military, I'd go join the army...just a matter of personal preference.


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## Laurentkd (Jan 28, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> I actually pretty strongly disagree with this on both counts.
> 
> First, I've been a Christian a lot longer than I've practiced Tae Kwon Do, so my own spiritual, philosophical and metaphysical belief structure is already well founded and as a result, I have little interest in martial arts for any over tones of Oriental thought.


 
Can you explain how your Christian beliefs keep you from any interest in Oriental thought?


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## YoungMan (Jan 28, 2008)

Tae Kwon Do is not religion. As far as I know, nothing in its philosophy or spiritual practices should preclude Christians from observing them. Several of our Instructors are devout Christians, and they seem to have no problem with these principles. I think Christians who think the spiritual side of Tae Kwon Do is incompatable with their beliefs have been misinformed.


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 29, 2008)

IMO, tradition is valuable IF it effectively is helping to convey a worthwhile lesson to the next generation. Ultimately though, the "traditions" of one school or assn. may differ greatly from anothers. When my instructor enters the training floor either when I go back to his school or when he visits mine, I stop class and bow him in. OTOH, if one of the instructors under me, even those of master rank, do the same when I enter the floor at my school, I get (privately) annoyed with them for breaking the flow of the class. 

I have always turned away to fix my belt or dobok/gi and have always taught my students that it was just good manners, though I do not get offended if they forget to do so. I just don't want guests to think my students are uneducated savages. As far as rolling up sleeves goes, I think it is more of a question of fuction. I have over 20" arms, 54-55" chest and 30" thighs. Because of my physical proportions, I wear a size 8 uniform, but am just a hair over 6' tall. If I didn't roll up my sleeves when I teach, I would never see my hands. When I train on my own, I wear shorts and a t-shirt or sweats rather than my uniform anyways. If I am at a formal workout or training with my instructor (or anybody else, seminar, ect.), I wear my uniform the same way that I teach in. If one of the teens wants to wear the sleeves up to put on a "gun show", I chuckle to myself and ask him to roll down the sleeves because it "is not traditional" (my own code for "you look a bit foolish, but I would rather not embarrass you or allow you to embarrass yourself").

As far as the sidebar of "American-ized TKD" vs. "Korean-ized TKD", I feel that if a formal ettiquette from Korea is of value to the students, incorperate it. If an instructor doesn't feel it is in the best interests of the students, then leave it out. Keep in mind though that the "1500 years of tradition going back to the hwa rang" is merely the fabrication of Korean nationalism. When Ryukyu/Okinawan kenpo was brought over to mainland Japan, many of it's customs and "traditions" were altered to make it palatable to the new culture that it was introduced to. When the mainland Japanese version (mostly shotokan) was exported to Korea, it's customs and "traditions" (as well as much of it's true historical roots) were altered to make it palatable to the new culture that it was introduced to. If Americans, Aussies, and Europeans take the same approach when adapting the cultures and traditions of TKD to make it palatable to their culture, aren't they just keeping this tradition alive?


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## agemechanic03 (Jan 30, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> You know iceman another tradition I have always followed as been turning your back to your instructor when fixing the Dobok or uniform. It was always thatw ay anybody else do that.


We do that here in Korea in my Tang Soo Do Class. Also, when putting on our Dee's (Belts) we turn away from the instructor too.


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## agemechanic03 (Jan 30, 2008)

As for the whole "rolling" of sleeves and pants, I can't really comment on since I have never done either. I do, however, roll my waist band ONCE, which makes my pants just right for me. I'm 6'2 and 150lbs, so NOTHING ever fits me right. Personnally tho, I wouldn't have a problem with the rolling of the sleeves, but like i said, I've never been around, just seen pictures. Oh, I study Tang Soo Do, for those of you who do not know, it's Korean too and I am currently studying in S Korea as we speak. 
 I do prefer uniformity when practicing. I do not like seeing twenty different colors in one room, it just doesn't look and feel right to me. But also, I am in the military and am used to the whole "uniformity" thing. My instructor doesn't let us train in just T-shirts unless we are having our Doboks trimmed with a color for our belts, new, or washing the top, or have forgotten it. But to train in a t-shirt just to train when you have your dobok, he get's pissed off. Plus we don't have a school t-shirt, so that issue doesn't help.


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## DArnold (Jan 30, 2008)

Yes, 
To those who think that Martial Arts is just punching and kicking then these items would not make sense.

To those who have not had the benifit of an instructor that learned these things, or had the ability to teach these things then they would seem strange. (And somone mentioned a Korean... I have met many high ranking Koreans who did not what they were doing also. So nationality or rank (as we have seen) many times has little to do with knowledge these days.)

Whenever you have questions about traditions you should try to relate them back to the tenets and student oath, which is the other 50% of TaeKwon-Do. (other than kicking and punching)

For example, once you learn what the first tenet: COURTSEY is, then this will tie some of these physical aspects to the mental aspects.

And you can bow any way you want, but you show me your mental state by how you preform physically. This is much more important to me than your control over your physical techniques.

If you somehow disagree I would ask you:

Which is easier to fix? A bad technique or a bad attitude?


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## YoungMan (Jan 31, 2008)

To me, the Tae Kwon Do uniform deserves the same dignity you would give a military, police, or firefighter's uniform. I daresay you wouldn't roll the sleeves up or allow those to become out of place either. People who equate martial arts to mere sport may not understand, but to me the uniform represents the dignity of traditional martial arts. If you roll the sleeves up or in some other way allow the uniform to get unkempt, you are trivializing what you practice.


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## jim777 (Jan 31, 2008)

DArnold said:


> Which is easier to fix? A bad technique or a bad attitude?


 
Now that smells like a new thread!


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## YoungMan (Feb 1, 2008)

A bad attitude is the end result of years, if not decades, of experience, and is truly hard to change. Compared to that, bad technique can be fixed in mere months with proper training.


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## newGuy12 (Feb 1, 2008)

DArnold said:


> Which is easier to fix? A bad technique or a bad attitude?



Yes.  We were told countless times, over and over, that this TKD has to do with the mind, the mental part.  The student has to acquire the correct mindset, and this can only be done by a prolonged practice, years.

With the right mindset, all things are possible. The correct ways to kick and punch and spar will certainly come then, provided that there is competent Instruction.



YoungMan said:


> To me, the Tae Kwon Do uniform deserves the same dignity you would give a military, police, or firefighter's uniform. I daresay you wouldn't roll the sleeves up or allow those to become out of place either. People who equate martial arts to mere sport may not understand, but to me the uniform represents the dignity of traditional martial arts. If you roll the sleeves up or in some other way allow the uniform to get unkempt, you are trivializing what you practice.



I just have to second this.  This is exactly how I feel.  The Dobok is special garb.  Once you put on the Dobok, things change.  Then, you focus the mind on the TKD only.  This in itself is concentration.  It is exercise for the mind.  You don't allow the thoughts to vary and wander, wondering, for example, what shall I eat after class tonight.  No.  Instead you continue with focusing on the practice.

And, right, one would be appalled to see any police officer or military person to be seen with any kind of sub standard uniform.  That would be shameful.  It is even more important to us, I think.  Things have to be kept to a high standard.  Students should be good looking in their uniform, showing high regard for a good looking martial art!


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## YoungMan (Feb 2, 2008)

That's precisely why it aggravates me when students are allowed to wear whatever uniform they want in whatever fashion they want. There is no dignity in that, and it makes martial arts look bad and low class. If you are a soldier or police officer, you would NEVER go around looking like that. Who would respect you? Why do it with a dobok?


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## Laurentkd (Feb 2, 2008)

I am curious....
How do military guys wear their clothing/uniform when actually training? I mean, I know the military dress uniform always has to look a specific way, but do they never roll up the sleeves of their BDUs while training in the field or anything? I really don't know.


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 2, 2008)

Wearing the uniforms incorrectly shows a blatant disrespect for the style and a lack of focus on the student's part. I prefer that the uniforms be worn correctly at all times. If you are going to practice the style, then you must respect the style.


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## scstover (Feb 2, 2008)

In my previous school we generally wore dobuk pants, but wore our school T-shirts.  But when our master came for belt tests we work full dobuk with sleeves straight.

Now I'm in a WTF school with a Korean Master, we must wear dobuk with the school name on the back.  I always roll my sleeves and nobody has ever said anything about it.


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## newGuy12 (Feb 2, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> I am curious....
> How do military guys wear their clothing/uniform when actually training? I mean, I know the military dress uniform always has to look a specific way, but do they never roll up the sleeves of their BDUs while training in the field or anything? I really don't know.



I'm sure a military person can answer this (I am not in the military), but until then, I will say this -- its MY UNDERSTANDING that either EVERYONE in the platoon will roll the sleeves up, or NOBODY will.  Now, in a combat zone, this most likely goes out the window, of course.

I keep thinking of a line in a Cheech and Chong movie, where they were discussing whether they should wear uniforms in their rock-n-roll band.  Well, one of those two main characters (the big one), said, "If we wear uniforms, they should all be different." 

???

That's the joke -- what does the word 'uniform' mean???

Now, I am not hear to berate others.  Everyone can do as the please as far as I am concerned.  I have no beef with others to the point that I wish to impose my will on them.  I did however wish to publicly agree with user 'YoungMan', because a nicely outfitted group of students makes a difference in my mind. 

Now, of course, some schools may wish to not follow this.  That is up to that school, of course.  It has nothing to do with what I think!


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## Laurentkd (Feb 2, 2008)

Thanks for the response NewGuy (I think it is funny that you will always be the "new guy").
I was wondering because during training time, while everyone must wear the same uniform with the same patches (at least everyone is supposed to have their patches on), people can roll their sleeves or their cuffs in whatever fashion they like to train.  However, when competing or when demonstrating (in otherwords, anytime they are in the public eye) everyone's uniform must be exactly the same, everyone must wear the same warm up jacket over the uniform, everyone must have the same kicking shoes, same equipment bags, and same kicking paddles.  While I respect everyone else's opinions, this makes sense to me as when we are training uniforms become disheveled all the time, and you are there to train for yourself, but when in the public eye everyone is to look the same to present a uniform appearance.   That to me is the important time to look "Uniform".  Personal opinions may differ, but it is these times that seem worth "the fight" with students to look exactly alike (and parents like to be able to cuff a sleeve or pant leg in order to make the uniform last their growing child for another couple months!).


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## YoungMan (Feb 3, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> I'm sure a military person can answer this (I am not in the military), but until then, I will say this -- its MY UNDERSTANDING that either EVERYONE in the platoon will roll the sleeves up, or NOBODY will. Now, in a combat zone, this most likely goes out the window, of course.
> 
> I keep thinking of a line in a Cheech and Chong movie, where they were discussing whether they should wear uniforms in their rock-n-roll band. Well, one of those two main characters (the big one), said, "If we wear uniforms, they should all be different."
> 
> ...


 
Thank you. Nice to know someone else agrees and realizes that this is indeed important. Outside class, you can express your individuality. In class, I strongly feel that uniformity (from the Instructor on down) needs to be enforced. To me, a whole class of white uniforms neat and sharp is a beautiful thing.


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## ellies (Feb 10, 2008)

For the military, it is paramount that uniformity is key.  How can there be sound strategic action on the field of battle if this gear is one way and that equipment the other way.  This also breeds a discipline that is highly oticeable.  From the ever-so- clean uniforms to the proper conduct of ones self, these are only some of the factors that create the incredible:wavey::wavey::wavey:artyon: spirit of TKD


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Feb 10, 2008)

WOW - Very nice Thread........I just might start one similar on my site 
I could list MANY things.
1-When I first started TaeKwonDo in 1978, the Pants had to stop in the middle of the calf. I had actually witnessed this being checked.

2-Can't cross your arms.......crazy, this was in the ATA, then many of the photos had the Masters crossing their arms. I remember asking about this. Evidently you weren't suppose to question the rules.

3-Can't roll up the sleeves

4- Yes...turn around while you tie the belt and straighten the Uniform

5-NEVER let the Belt touch the floor

6-Never eat while wearing the DoBok

7-No colored uniforms or "extra patches /badges" Keep it simple. Much like the ITF still does.

These rules and many others have stuck with me, even though my present day Instructor may not have them, I still enforce them. And I tend to find myself looking down on those that don't have the same strictness of discipline.:jaw-dropping:
I am ashamed to admitt that part.......hopefully I will get over the crazy stuff. It may be OK for me, but I need to respect Instructors that do it differently, and I do!
-Kevin


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## DArnold (Feb 10, 2008)

TaeKwonDoKevin said:


> WOW - Very nice Thread........I just might start one similar on my site
> I could list MANY things.
> 1-When I first started TaeKwonDo in 1978, the Pants had to stop in the middle of the calf. I had actually witnessed this being checked.
> 
> ...


 
Are you saying you don't know why you do these things?


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## Laurentkd (Feb 20, 2008)

We don't cross our arms in the dojang either.  My sahbonim thinks it shows an unwilling mind-set and is disrespectful.  For what it is worth, studies show that we have more trouble remembering what we are taught when our arms are crossed. So there seems to be something to it besides just tradition!


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## Fiendlover (Feb 20, 2008)

hahaha to not let ur belt EVER touch the floor.  i guess its disrespectful and its not like i do it on person but if im tying it on since its usually long its going to touch the ground.  but i saw others do it but my sensei only baarely enforced it cuz shihan said not do it but sensei usually just said "dont let shihan see you with that on the floor"  but i just though that sensei was leaniant on it and that shihan was actually saying that was a tradition.


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## Fiendlover (Feb 20, 2008)

*purpose


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 21, 2008)

Fiendlover said:


> hahaha to not let ur belt EVER touch the floor. i guess its disrespectful and its not like i do it on person but if im tying it on since its usually long its going to touch the ground. but i saw others do it but my sensei only baarely enforced it cuz shihan said not do it but sensei usually just said "dont let shihan see you with that on the floor" but i just though that sensei was leaniant on it and that shihan was actually saying that was a tradition.


 
That is interesting. We are usually required to dress in the back room while the master is out on the floor with the senior students discussing what they are going to go over in class with us color belt guys. Therefore, they wouldn't be able to see whether our belts hit the floor or not . By the way, I like your signature!


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## YoungMan (Feb 21, 2008)

We were told to not let our belts touch the ground either. Even if we dressed away from the classroom, it eventually became ingrained in us to follow that custom out of respect for our instructor.
I suppose one of the true marks of a student is what he does when the instructor is not around and he doesn't have to obey. We always followed custom even when not in class.
Much like the military. A soldier will always follow military custom even if the DI is not around out of respect.


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 21, 2008)

Agreed. Some of us took advantage of the fact that the instructor wasn't around, but for the most part we didn't let it touch the ground because it was habit. It was the butt of many locker room jokes to "accidentally" let it touch, though :whip::lol2:. Personally, I got lazy at times, but the rigid Shotokan budoka in me kept me honest.


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## JWLuiza (Feb 21, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> Agreed. Some of us took advantage of the fact that the instructor wasn't around, but for the most part we didn't let it touch the ground because it was habit. It was the butt of many locker room jokes to "accidentally" let it touch, though :whip::lol2:. Personally, I got lazy at times, but the rigid Shotokan budoka in me kept me honest.



www.24fightingchickens.com has some interesting articles on this.  The belt urban legends and such... I've learned much of what is tradition in the west is unheard of in asian dojos/dojangs.

I would consider myself a traditionalist in technique, but not in pedagogy.


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 21, 2008)

The 24fightingchickens website! How did I miss that one? I see exactly what you are saying. I have heard stories from people who have gone to train in their art's country of origin and they got strange looks from the natives while adhering to "tradition". I guess that I stick with it because it is part of my training and it gives it a kind of personality, so to speak. I don't consider them oh-so-holy and unbreakable, but I like them and I like to stay true to them. I found this article to be very interesting and truthful, though probably not very popular among hardcore traditionalists :lol:: http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2007/05/17/tradition-change-power/

I guess it all comes down to why we are in it in the first place. I like tradition, but I respect those who do not because everyone has their own reasons for practicing.


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## JWLuiza (Feb 22, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> The 24fightingchickens website! How did I miss that one? I see exactly what you are saying. I have heard stories from people who have gone to train in their art's country of origin and they got strange looks from the natives while adhering to "tradition". I guess that I stick with it because it is part of my training and it gives it a kind of personality, so to speak. I don't consider them oh-so-holy and unbreakable, but I like them and I like to stay true to them. I found this article to be very interesting and truthful, though probably not very popular among hardcore traditionalists :lol:: http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2007/05/17/tradition-change-power/
> 
> I guess it all comes down to why we are in it in the first place. I like tradition, but I respect those who do not because everyone has their own reasons for practicing.


I don't mind people who do these things (like OSU!!!!!) but I prefer them to, like you, have a cogent reason behind it other than, "OMG IT"S TRADITION" without being open to the truth of any behaviors etymology.


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## YoungMan (Feb 22, 2008)

If I am by myself, or with another black belt of equal rank that I know well, then the rules can be bent. Especially if it's two black belts who are friends, the rules can be whatever they say they are.
Anything else, accepted rules and etiquette are in order.


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## newGuy12 (Feb 22, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> I suppose one of the true marks of a student is what he does when the instructor is not around and he doesn't have to obey. We always followed custom even when not in class.
> Much like the military. A soldier will always follow military custom even if the DI is not around out of respect.


I was told about this.  This was said to be the difference between respecting the Instructor and fearing the Instructor, and respect is a higher, more persistent mindset.


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## newGuy12 (Feb 22, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> If I am by myself, or with another black belt of equal rank that I know well, then the rules can be bent. Especially if it's two black belts who are friends, the rules can be whatever they say they are.
> Anything else, accepted rules and etiquette are in order.


Also, some things that I thought were important are NOT.  For example, it was our custom at testing to (after warm up exercises) sit right down, with the higher ranking students in the front of the room.

Now, one of the schools in our organization does it the opposite.  At testing time, it is reversed, all of the white belts go to the front of the room, and so forth.

So, what I thought was the "normal way" was evidently nothing more than a convention, nothing important about it.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 22, 2008)

With respect to the belt touching the floor, I tell my students practical things. Here's what I mean.

I teach in a church. Many of my students & their parents are people of strong faith, as I am. I don't want to confuse young students that "this do or don't" during class is on the same level as their faith. In other words, I don't want to give the impression that one's belt is a holy object.

I explain that it's tradition to not let their belt touch the ground. Yet, when we do push-ups or sit-ups for example, they are going to touch the ground. I ask them if they think it shows respect to my belt & to the art if I drag my belt on the floor on my way to my bag. I ask if they think a police officer would do that with their uniform or badge. We discuss why they think that it doesn't show respect to do that. 

I also tell them that it's tradition to not wash their belts. I tell them the story I was told was that "all your pain & knowledge goes into your belt." I ask them if they think that ACTUALLY happens or if it's a tradition. They usually say it's a tradition. I tell them that we keep that tradition & reassure parents that the belt really don't smell with use. I also say to parents that if there is a stain that needs removing on a belt, remove it. 

I think it's important to give practical reasons for things that we do in the dojang.


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## matt.m (Feb 23, 2008)

I suppose it is my chance to drop my .02.  Look we never roll sleeves or pant legs.  We always "Fix" our dobok turned around out of respect.  We wear white on white only.  The black belts wear the trim but that is it.  There is none of this multi color stuff.  I know I am an old timer in my belief system.  However, GGM Park always said "In Korea we wear white on white because you cant trust people in black dobok."  According to him "The same thing is true of good guys wear white hat and bad guys wear black hat in old American Black and White western."


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 23, 2008)

matt.m said:


> GGM Park always said "In Korea we wear white on white because you cant trust people in black dobok."


 
What is he like 5 years old or something :lol2:!? That has slippery slope written all over it if you read between the lines . Then again, I have seen far worse things done because of "tradition". Oh well, if it floats his boat and it works for him, then more power to him. My Shotokan sensei said things about people who dress in multi-colored gi's and they weren't exactly politically correct if you know what I mean. I love the guy, but there were a lot things that I didn't agree with concerning his personal philosophies :lol:. It is that old time prejudice, I guess. By the way, I meant no offence to you or your GGM.


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## Kacey (Feb 23, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with tradition; I keep many of the same traditions as Iceman myself.  Just because a tradition is started for a reason you don't agree with, or a reason that has been forgotten, does not mean that new meanings cannot be found, nor does it mean that the tradition is meaningless.  An example:

The new bride is making her first big dinner for her new husband, and tries her hand at her mother's roast recipe, cutting the ends off the roast the way her mother always did.  Hubby thinks the meal is delicious, but says "Why do you cut the off ends - that's the best part!"  She answers "That's the way my mother always made it."

The next week, the bride is visiting her mother, and asks why she always cut the ends off the roast; her mother's answer is the same as her own:  "That's the way my mother always made it."  

So off they go to visit Grandma, to ask _her_ why she always cut the ends off the roast.  Grandma's answer:  "Because that's the only way it would fit in my roasting pan!"​My point is, as I said above, that traditions can exist for many reasons.  If it is important to you to maintain those traditions for their own sake, or to find new interpretations so that the traditions make sense to you - do it!  If not, then don't.

As far as why we maintain those traditions - as an example, we wear all white uniforms, except for black trim for black belts, to maintain a uniformity of appearance.  For many people, especially those just beginning, this uniformity helps set the tone of class - it is a time apart from other things, and the visual reminder of everyone wearing white helps with the mindset of setting aside the concerns of the day to concentrate on learning.  For other people, it makes no difference - but it does no harm.  The trim helps students - again, especially new students - to identify those who have the greatest rank (and, presumably, the greatest knowledge) who can help them most readily.

As far as turning away to adjust your uniform - it is on a par with turning away when you suddenly realize you need to zip your pants; it is a courtesy.

Again, if you don't see a need to follow such traditions, that's what works for you - to each his (or her) own.  For me, following these and other traditions works, and therefore I will continue to do so.


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 23, 2008)

I am with you on that one, Kacey. I personally love to stick with tradition even though I get criticized a lot for it by my other buddies in the martial arts. Despite all of the reasons to not follow it, I believe that it lends something extra to the practice, it gives it a sense of not just being a method of fighting, but even moreso a way of life. Sure, we traditionalists understand that, but the non-traditionalists would be wise to take that into consideration instead of just cracking wise on us . Could I practice without the traditional trappings and fight just as well? Sure! However, I feel that I would be missing out on something deeper - perhaps a spiritual or cultural experience or something. Of course, if one is not looking for that deeper something through martial arts, then I respect that too and there is nothing wrong with that.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 23, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> I am with you on that one, Kacey. I personally love to stick with tradition even though I get criticized a lot for it by my other buddies in the martial arts. Despite all of the reasons to not follow it, I believe that it lends something extra to the practice, it gives it a sense of not just being a method of fighting, but even moreso a way of life. Sure, we traditionalists understand that, but the non-traditionalists would be wise to take that into consideration instead of just cracking wise on us . Could I practice without the traditional trappings and fight just as well? Sure! However, I feel that I would be missing out on something deeper - perhaps a spiritual or cultural experience or something. Of course, if one is not looking for that deeper something through martial arts, then I respect that too and there is nothing wrong with that.


 
My buddy that is the #2 man in his system of karate has a unique take on the tradition & even formality of MA. He tells his students that the reason that we have formality is simply to get things done in a class setting. Otherwise, we wouldn't get far. Looking at MA or any tye of class setting, this is true at it's base. All MA (even MMA & JKD) have some sorts of traditions, formality & structure simply to get things done. No matter how "untraditional" a program's intent, it has it's traditions.


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## newGuy12 (Feb 23, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> Despite all of the reasons to not follow it, I believe that it lends something extra to the practice, it gives it a sense of not just being a method of fighting, but even moreso a way of life.


It is more than just kicking and punching.  We had testing today and a 17 year old boy tested for 1st black belt (promotional black belt rank).  He read an essay that he wrote about TKD.  In there he said that he now has a big family, little brothers that he did not have before and so forth.

We have a culture like this, you see.  No one can tell me different.  Those who know of this, what I speak of, know.  Others I will not try to convince, what is the point in it?

Also, there are some yoga teachers who write books.  I have read where they say, "Place your yoga mat down in the same place in the house when you do these poses".  Don't move it about, sometimes here, sometimes there, if it can be avoided.  Then, roll the mat up nicely and put it away, do not treat it as a mundane thing. 

See, for people like me, this helps to make the brain concentrate.  It is cheating, but it still works.  It tricks the brain -- This is special what I am about to do.  I take the mat down and place it right here, where it goes.  It is not simply a haphazard thing I will do, but a *mindful* thing.  I wish to engage my mind more fully with my quest, not just do the physical poses.  

I tend to suspect that there are similiar reasons why we do some things in TKD, but also, I care not about this.  I simply follow without question.  We were told to never complain, never backtalk the Teacher, and never question the Teacher.  I wished to learn this as well as I could, and so that is what I did, and do.


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 23, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> It is more than just kicking and punching. We had testing today and a 17 year old boy tested for 1st black belt (promotional black belt rank). He read an essay that he wrote about TKD. In there he said that he now has a big family, little brothers that he did not have before and so forth.
> 
> We have a culture like this, you see. No one can tell me different. Those who know of this, what I speak of, know. Others I will not try to convince, what is the point in it?
> 
> ...


 
Beautiful post, my friend. The mindful thing is a lot like what is done in the military as far as making one's bed. To the uninitiated, it may seem like something that is completely worthless and inconsequential, but to those of us who are in it, it is a form of training in and of itself and it teaches us to pay attention to detail and be aware of everything, even the small things. If you do the little things well, then the bigger things will follow. Tradition really does get that deep, and it is something that cannot be communicated through words, it is something that must be experienced to be understood. I respect those who do not follow tradition, but I think that they are missing out on something that is simply priceless not just in the Martial Arts sense, but in life, period.


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## YoungMan (Feb 23, 2008)

Tradition serves to remind us that true martial arts are much more than just kicking, punching, blocking, and fighting.
Part of Tae Kwon Do tradition is based on ideas that go back almost 2000 years. Because of that, you don't just change them because YOU don't like them or understand. Tae Kwon Do and its philosophies are much bigger than one person; they have a reason, even if you don't know what it is. 
Example: the national colors of the United States are red, white, and blue, and have been for well over 200 years. Don't like them? Tough. The meanings go back to well before you were born, and you would do well to understand them rather just change them because you don't why it is the way it is.


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 24, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Tradition serves to remind us that true martial arts are much more than just kicking, punching, blocking, and fighting.


 
Actually, no they are not. "True martial arts" were created with one purpose in mind - to ensure victory on the battlefeild. The traditions and other stuff were added on to the art so that it would remain relevant in times of peace. Most so-called "traditions" are recent creations, too. Yes, you can change them if you don't like them - they are not so holy as to be the equivalent of God's unquestionable word. They were created by flesh and blood humans just like me and you, so who is to say that flesh and blood humans just like me and you cannot change them and/or improve upon them? Most people change them or choose to not follow them because they don't fit in with what they seek or what they are trying to accomplish in the martial arts. Different folks train for different reasons, all of them valid. I am not trying to attack tradition, for I am a traditionalist, myself. However, I think that we must keep things in perspective and not build them up to be more than they actually are. We know all too well the devastating effects of blind extremism...


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 24, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> My buddy that is the #2 man in his system of karate has a unique take on the tradition & even formality of MA. He tells his students that the reason that we have formality is simply to get things done in a class setting. Otherwise, we wouldn't get far. Looking at MA or any tye of class setting, this is true at it's base. All MA (even MMA & JKD) have some sorts of traditions, formality & structure simply to get things done. No matter how "untraditional" a program's intent, it has it's traditions.


 
Yes, and that is true. There are a lot of things that are tradition simply because that is the best way to get things done. The enbusen rule comes to mind with this one. There are traditionalists who swear up and down that there is some mystical deeper meaning behind starting and finishing a form in the same place, but the rule was created to conserve space on the dojo floor due to the large number of people practicing at one time. Likewise, the uniform is simply the form of dress that a master has chosen for his students to wear in class. Karate liked the judo gi, so they decided to use it in their style. Taekwondo used it, too. However, they eventually wanted their own uniform, so voila - we have the dobok. Nothing mystical or super deep about it, it is just a matter of taste. Tradition is awesome as long as we keep it in perspective and don't become all arrogant and extremist with it. I follow them, but I would never look down on someone and regard them as the martial arts equivalent of a heathen because they choose not to follow them for reasons of their own. Balance is the key.


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 24, 2008)

I have been thinking. I played American football for a number of years. As an American football player, we did things that brought us closer together and created a sense of family that was just as strong as anything found in the martial arts. They weren't exactly tradition because the team that I played for didn't really have a tradition of its own, we just kind of showed up and did what we had to do to win the game. So maybe that special "something" has nothing to do with following a particular tradition. Maybe it comes from struggling, growing, and overcoming adversity together. That can be gained without adhering to strict traditionalism. We were also drilled to do the little things such as lining up on the line of scrimmage at a certain point and coming out of our stance at a certain level. Again, not sacred tradition, but they were little things that when taken care of make the big things that much easier.


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## DArnold (Feb 24, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> Actually, no they are not. "True martial arts" were created with one purpose in mind - to ensure victory on the battlefeild. The traditions and other stuff were added on to the art so that it would remain relevant in times of peace. Most so-called "traditions" are recent creations, too. Yes, you can change them if you don't like them - they are not so holy as to be the equivalent of God's unquestionable word. They were created by flesh and blood humans just like me and you, so who is to say that flesh and blood humans just like me and you cannot change them and/or improve upon them? Most people change them or choose to not follow them because they don't fit in with what they seek or what they are trying to accomplish in the martial arts. Different folks train for different reasons, all of them valid. I am not trying to attack tradition, for I am a traditionalist, myself. However, I think that we must keep things in perspective and not build them up to be more than they actually are. We know all too well the devastating effects of blind extremism...


 
Although I do not know what your meaning of "True Martial Arts" is as this comment is a rather generic statement...

If the definition of "Respect" is deffering to somone elses judgement, would you call that "blind extremism"? 

Where do you draw the line between thinking your knowledge is all encompasing and showing respect for something that is being given to you? For those who can not control their mind with the simplest of acts shows me that they are not ready to be given more.

I also differ with your oppinion... if you study where many of the martial arts were taught/studied they do have religious ties and the traditions do have quite a history.

If you study Shinto, the basis of most all eastern religions you would understand why you don't drag your belt around on the ground, or why it is just as much of a mental insult as a physical insult to kick somone in the head!

Cheers :wink2:


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 24, 2008)

DArnold said:


> Although I do not know what your meaning of "True Martial Arts" is as this comment is a rather generic statement...
> 
> If the definition of "Respect" is deffering to somone elses judgement, would you call that "blind extremism"?
> 
> ...


 
- I was responding to an earlier post that made a bold statement concerning what is "True martial arts". 

- No, I would not call that blind extremism. What I would call blind extremism is taking the position that anything that is different from what one does themselves is inherently wrong or that it should be attacked for no other reason than it is not part of one's own tradition.

- I am not so arrogant as to think that my knowledge is all encompassing in the first place, and I always show respect for all things being given to me as that is how I was raised, so there is no need to draw such a line in the first place. I agree with you on the readiness of someone else, but that is not strictly in the realm of tradition. A football coach is not going to start a player if he feels that his skills will be a liability, likewise, a martial arts instructor is not going to teach another student if he/she feels that they will be a liability.

- Notice that I said "most" and not "all". Obviously, the tradition of bowing to show respect isn't a recent creation. The last time that I checked, soldiers on the battlefeild didn't wear gi's or colored belts, so I don't see exactly how this is relevant concerning the arts of war when they were used on the battlefield. It is the time window that we are talking about here - most of what we practice today is chock full of modern conventions. We didn't have a belt system until the japanese created it in the 20th century - not exactly ancient. Kicking someone in the head is insulting today, but do you seriously think that soldiers were discouraged to kick someone in the head during those warring times on the battlefeild? As a matter of fact, kicking to head was actually allowed until very recently, so that is not exactly an ancient tradition, either. Religion was not an inherent part of the MARTIAL arts (I capitalize martial because there are arts that are classified as martial arts when they are really healing arts and/or meditative arts. Of course these arts have religious connotations because that is a major part of why they were created in the first place, as opposed to martial arts that were created for war and such other dirty business). Now, there were individual warriors who studied Buddhism to augment their physical skills, and of course when facing death every day their own personal beliefs entered into what they were doing, but for the most part training was cold, brutal business as usual for them sans the "Do" element (which is one of the reasons why we have "jutsu" and "Do"). The "Do" was actually the fusing together of the martial art and the religious elements to create a more wholesome practice experience and to keep the arts around when they were no longer needed for their original purpose.

- Are you saying that Shinto was the basis of most all eastern religions? I am not trying to be a smart aleck, just the way that you worded it in the post isn't clear.


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 26, 2008)

.....okay, judging by the relative "silence" since my last post, I am going to go out on a limb and say that I have rubbed everybody the wrong way. So, my deepest apologies to everyone. I wasn't trying to insult tradition or offend any of you, it's just the philosophy degree going haywire and overanalyzing everything again :lol2:. I'll just sit over here in the corner and be quiet :asian:.


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## SageGhost83 (Mar 2, 2008)

Actually, I have stumbled upon something in Classical Fighting Arts Magazine. Alan Ruddock did a feature called Aikido Memoirs in and he said something very interesting regarding a lot of the attitudes in traditional martial arts. I thought that I would provide an excerpt from CFA Issue No. 35 article "Aikido Memoirs part 2".

Excerpt:

"Respect other people and their traditions...but remember, respect is a two way street. It is actually disturbing to see the manner in which some students are accustomed to being misused, and worse, their impression that whatever the sensei does must be right. They have switched off two buttons in their brain called common sense and self respect. O-sensei, although a deeply religious man, never insisted that we adopt a Shinto, Zen, or any other path as a means to understand Aikido. In fact, the idea of Aikido as a kind of religion is totally alien to me, and I suspect to anyone else who was actually there at the time O-Sensei was alive. He was putting over universal principles about harmony and respect for others. He never gave any inkling of wanting to impose any religious system on students. I was brought up in the Christian tradition and subsequently studied Zen, Taoism, Gurdjieff, and Therevada Buddhism without feeling this made me any less Christian or more capable in Aikido. It certainly never gave me the desire to force this down other people's throats in the name of Aikido." (Ruddock 33, 34)

Alan Ruddock was a student of O-Sensei and trained with him in person. I found this article and the excerpt really stuck out to me concerning the attitudes within traditional martial arts. I think that it goes to show that a lot of the traditional things are taken way out of proportion at times and turned into something that they clearly are not and were never meant to be in the first place.


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## DArnold (Mar 2, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> .....okay, judging by the relative "silence" since my last post, I am going to go out on a limb and say that I have rubbed everybody the wrong way. So, my deepest apologies to everyone. I wasn't trying to insult tradition or offend any of you, it's just the philosophy degree going haywire and overanalyzing everything again :lol2:. I'll just sit over here in the corner and be quiet :asian:.


 
Nah, You are doing great!
And it seems we agree on a lot.
As this medium is never great for conveying thoughts, only through the continued perserverence, as you have done, do you get closer to the meaning of people.

Also, I just don't get on here that often.

Yes, No matter what is created for good, someone will turn around and use it for bad.

And, wether it is a belt, an insignia, epelets, or a weapon (like the chinease had for generals) the concept of rank has carried down through the ages and is nothing new.

As for the football coach analogy, there are such things called "building years" or where a person must be promoted in order to grow. We have this in many stages of the arts.

My analogy to Shinto was, as I alluded, not the physical but the spiritual.  In Shinto the top of the head is the most holey as it is the gateway of the spirits, and the feet are the most defiled as they are in constant contact with the earth.  Thus kicking someone in the head is not just a physical insult, but I am also telling you what I think of you by wiping the most defiled part of my body on the holest part of yours!

As you are correct that this should not replace your religion, many practice the guidlines of the Martial Arts more than they do their own religion. (I Do)  And many confuse the two(I Don't).  However, just as many religions are parallel lines... parallel lines do meet on the horizon.  And it can be said that most religions do not practice what they preach. (so should we start calling them McChurchDo's?)

I saw a great bumper sticker yeaserday.  It said, "I have no problem with GOD, it's his followers I can't get along with!"

So wether you follow, "Do unto others..." or "I Shall build a more peaceful world" they are quite similar.

Thanks,


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## SageGhost83 (Mar 2, 2008)

DArnold said:


> Nah, You are doing great!
> And it seems we agree on a lot.
> As this medium is never great for conveying thoughts, only through the continued perserverence, as you have done, do you get closer to the meaning of people.
> 
> ...


 
I see. I reread my other post and realized that it sounded as though I came off as a jerk and it also sounded like it could be misinterpreted as an attacking post - neither being my intention. I actually got the Shinto connection that you were originally alluding to, and I agree with you all of the way on that. I was looking at it more from the military/soldier perspective of "so what - as long as it works and allows me to see another day". It comes back to that whole "Jutsu" and "DO" thing. Yes, I think that we do hold a lot of the same views - I just screw up more than you and send the wrong impression when I present mine :lol2:!


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