# Full Contact HapKiDo



## WilliamJ (Feb 8, 2005)

Greetings gents and ladies. I was browsing around the forum here a little and thought this might be of interest. I did a search and didn't see this topic around so if this is a repeat please forgive.

Full contact HapKiDo tournaments are making some noise out in CA, and I think it might be a major step in the development and progression of the art. I trained under this forum's own Iron Ox for a few years some time back, hey Kev long time no see bro, and have since trained in Judo and BJJ. The addition of live resistance to HapKiDo seems to me to be a very positiive thing.

For those who are curious, http://www.pro-hapkido.com/ Take a look in the video section, there is a short demo clip from the tournament DVD.


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 8, 2005)

I agree that live resistance is always a good training tool. Looking at the clip you mentioned, I was a little surprised as to what was being executed, technique wise. The only "Hapkido" move that I saw was the first kick takedown. Everything else looked very Judo'esk. I guess in reality, everything within the arts is inter-related though.


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## Kumbajah (Feb 8, 2005)

I definitely agree with the "liveness" aspect. Checked out the rules. Does seem to be a mix of TKD and Judo sparing. Notable exceptions:

1. knee strikes to the body 
2. knee/ankle/hip locks permitted
3. Wrist locks allowed
4. Neck cranks allowed
5. strikes only allowed to trunk - no head shots

The only part of the rules that were confusing to me is a submission is only worth one point. Match goes to two. 

<<3. Each striking technique shall earn 1/2 (plus half) point.

Each takedown technique shall earn 1/2 (plus half) point.

Each ground submission technique shall 1 (plus one) point.

4. Match score shall be the first contestant to reach 2 points.>>

But later it states that:

<<
Article 17. Decisions
1.Win by K.O.
2.Win by Tap Out
3.Win by Referee Stop Contest (RSC)
4.Win by score or superiority
5.Win by withdrawal
6.Win by disqualification
7.Win by referees punitive declaration>>

So points are awarded if you almost submit someone? Sort of like back points in wrestling or partial points in judo for a pin?

Looks like it would probably fun to watch and participate in. I wouldn't  necessarily call it Hapkido but it does have some of the flavor. I think you could get by with TKD and Judo.  No ground and pound - no head shots - no elbows - no low kicks etc. More UFC for the weekend warrior. Could participate and still show up to your cubicle on monday with out looking like you have been put through a meat grinder. Business attire will cover most bruises 

Brian


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## glad2bhere (Feb 9, 2005)

I agree.  There are a lot of things one could call this. Pankration, Judo, Wresling all come to mind.  Not sure why it needs to be called "Hapkido". I don't see anything "Hapkido" about it.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## WilliamJ (Feb 9, 2005)

Judo and wrestling don't allow kicking, and wrestling doesn't have armbars. And keep in mind Judo and HapKiDo are siblings, they both come from the same place. So it's natural, in a 36 second demo, for them to maybe look similiar. There are only so many ways to throw someone, and only so many ways to apply a straight armbar on the ground.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 9, 2005)

Dear William: 

I was thinking that as I read your post maybe some additional information would be helpful, but you will need to work with me because this will require using a wider view, 'kay? 

If by "wrestling" you are calling to mind the sort of Collegiate and HS sport. I think you are entirely correct. However, if you want to speak of wrestling in the larger sense you will need to include Indian/Pakistani, Persian, Mogolian and even early Greco-Roman traditions all of which including a variety of kicks and strikes at various times. The earlier variation of Korean Ssireum, often attributed to wrestling traditions of the Mongolian and Manchurian tribal cultures could get pretty nasty and have been cleaned up quite a bit to produce the events we find now. 

Speaking of Judo, I think it important that an excepted way of demonstrating dominance in earliest competitions was to simply choke the person into unconsciousness. Made for a very clean determination of visctory, yes? Modern medicine, and changes in competive rules for use in Olympic competition have made such things archaic by comparison to modern standards. 

Lastly, Hapkido relates to a number of arts biomechanically. However, the intent in the traditional art is the survival of the individual and restoration of the "Hwa" (Lit: "Harmony"-- referring to balance of "peace" of the community). Buddhist thought requires that this be done in the most efficient and effective manner possible. What this translates into in modern parlance is "stop the fight". However, the nature of competition is to facilitate or promote the length of the confrontation so each person has enough opportunity to demonstrate his prowess. As you can see these goals are at odds with each other. If I am mandated to stop a situation that is violating the Hwa, I will do what is necessary and that may or may not conform to an artificial set of guidelines intended to protect the well-being of a competitor. Hope this makes sense.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## WilliamJ (Feb 9, 2005)

Actually it doesn't make sense. So your basic point it, catching a kick and turning it into a throw looks like grappling. That's because it IS grappling. And no, greco roman style wrestling did not have kicks, that was save for the pankration matches in greek history, not wrestling. There is a tradition of submissions in catch wrestling, but that is not very widely practiced anymore, and really none of this has anything to do with adding some live competition to HapKiDo.

 While it's all well and good to keep in mind some techniques are not suitable for a competitive environment, using others in such a venue hardly takes away from the art as a whole. I think you are the one failing to keep an open mind by taking this position, mmm, it's competitive there fore it must be detrimental. Working against live resistance, even while using a smaller number of techniques, can only help with a persons reactions, fitness, balance and ability to adapt to a changing situation.

 Also I am curious as to what type of competition you are talking about where the goal is not to win as quickly as possible? Having been a fan of and attended a number of submission grappling, Judo and MMA tournaments and fights, I have never seen someone not try to finish their opponent by any means within the rules. In fact in tournaments it is important to win as quickly as possible to save your energy for later matches.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 9, 2005)

Dear William: 

Attacking me by saying that I do not have an "open mind" is probably not going to help you understand what we are talking about from another persons' point of view. To my way of thinking the very title of this string "--Full Contact Hapkido" is redundant. In a way its like saying "Black-colored Black". 

Now if you want to advocate for some kind of "full-contact competition" nobody is saying that you can't do that. 

a.) Its inappropriate to use the term "Hapkido" because that term is already taken with another activity. 

b.) its inappropriate to use the term "Hapkido" because that term bespeaks a "martial art" not a "martial sport". 

c.) It is inappropriate to use the term "Hapkido" because "Hapkido" does not have a competition intent. It IS an art, and maybe some people can use parts of it for sport use. But Hapkido is NOT competitive because the intention is not competition. If you want to compete using Hapkido techniques thats fine. If you want to introduce rules, thats OK too. If you want to have tournaments with trophies and parties afterwards, thats OK too. My suggestion is that you find another term for what you are doing, though. The term "Hapkido" is already claimed. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## ajs1976 (Feb 9, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Not sure why it needs to be called "Hapkido". I don't see anything "Hapkido" about it.


I'm quoting Bruce, but this is to everyone.

It is called Hapkido, because the people who started the tournament practice Hapkido and wanted to start an Hapkido tournament.

If the rules and the way it is practiced in the tournament make it look like something other than Hapkido, is it still Hapkido?

If the instructors start changing techiniques and the way they teach, to make their art more effective for the tournament, is it still Hapkido?


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## Kumbajah (Feb 9, 2005)

William I think the resistance you will feel from the traditional Hapkido world is against the general sportification of Hapkido. 

Because you are using a subset of techniques of Hapkido to practice the sport does not mean that you are practicing the art of Hapkido. 

When the focus becomes the sport aspect the illegal techniques tend to fall by the wayside. Judo has some limited kicks, punches, leg locks and other self defense aspects but they are not practiced to great deal because the focus is on Randori or Shiai. The art was originally structured on this premise. Eliminate "dangerous" techniques so that it could be practiced at full speed. 

BJJ an offshoot of Judo also has self defense but their focus is on the ground game. Even though it is used in MMA competitions many people cross train in a striking art for these competitions. 

Our Korean Cousin TKD has seen its reputation falter because Olympic Style sparing (as well as other things).  But say TKD and most people get the image of flying competitors trying to beat the crap out each others hogus. 

Now each one of these arts are excellent in their sphere of competition. Hapkido does address many aspects of these competitions. Full Contact Hapkido does not address the art of Hapkido as a whole. One does not need to be a Hapkido-in to compete in these games. Any MMA practitioner could do very well in the sport. Most Hapkido techniques are designed to debilitate your aggressor. In sport you are trying to defeat your opponent, you are not trying to cause permeant injury or death. Low kicks, bone breaking, shots to the head and neck, elbows, eye and other vital point spears etc are all integral to the art that I practice. 

With all that being said I agree with the putting "aliveness" into training. These competitions can be a valuable tool. A great tool in fact. If it makes to the east coast I will definitely be there and hopefully compete. 

So its the nomenclature that is the stumbling block. FCH is a kinder version of the UFC or other MMA competitions. It doesn't represent Hapkido as the well rounded  art that it is.


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## WilliamJ (Feb 9, 2005)

I never claimed this was going to replace traditional training methods. Nor did I ever advocate training specifically for competition. This can be a valuable aid to training though, a supplement to what you already do.

 And honestly if you really think BJJ, Judo and MMA are not trying to break bones and debilitate the opponent, then you have not competed or trained in any of them very extensively. But in a larger sense those things have nothing to do with this.

 My point is just this, a live tournament/training environment would be a very valuable addition to a HapKiDo school's training routine. Train the way you want, but don't overlook the opportunity to exercise your skills against a resisting opponent. Even if you cannot use everything you have, you do get to practice a good portion of your skills in these kinds of venues.

 And before you get offended glad, you should recall it was you using the condescending phrase, "but you will need to work with me because this will require using a wider view, 'kay?", insinuating I was incapable of taking grappling's larger history into view. Even though it's a history that has nothing to do with this discussion.


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## Kumbajah (Feb 9, 2005)

WilliamJ said:
			
		

> And honestly if you really think BJJ, Judo and MMA are not trying to break bones and debilitate the opponent, then you have not competed or trained in any of them very extensively. But in a larger sense those things have nothing to do with this.



Honestly I do think that in Judo you are not trying to break bones - there is a founding principle of jita kyoei. (mutual benefit) You can - but its not your intent. Maybe you missed that part in your extensive training. In most MMA competitions I've seen (other than KO's) end with a tap out rather then actually breaking. But as you say it is a moot point. 

AGAIN - I agree with with you about aliveness. This is a valuable tool. I'm just pointing out that it is the NAME people are going to choke on. It is not "full contact" or necessarily Hapkido if you are limiting techniques for competition.

B


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## WilliamJ (Feb 9, 2005)

In training in Judo you protect your partners so you can continue to train with them. In competition you win, that goes for MMA and Judo. Tap's generally occur before breaking, but not always. One of my training partners has broken his opponents arm two different times in Judo, because they did not tap. If you watch Frank Mir vs Tim Sylvia from UFC 49 you will see Mir snap Sylvia's forearm like a stick in an armbar. The only reason you don't see more of that is most people are smart enough to tap in competition. Winning is not worth losing an arm or leg for 4 months.

 As for the name, I didn't name it. Someone with a great deal more training in HapKiDo called it Pro HapKiDo. I used the term full contact, because training is different than doing things at full speed against resistance.

 If two men, trained in HapKiDo, step onto a mat and fight they certainly are not using Sambo. Feel free to email the people at the link I provided and argue the name with them. Arguing it with me is pointless since I cannot change their website.


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## Paul B (Feb 9, 2005)

Oh boy  ...*looking around*...now where did I put that?....ahhh...OK...I'm ready.opcorn: 

Please continue....


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## Kumbajah (Feb 9, 2005)

Injuries do occur in Judo - but it is not your intent. It is a win by submission - not win by breaking. Mutual Benefit is not just for the dojo - it is part of the art. 

If one or both have trained in sambo as well they might use that or BJJ or Judo etc. Right now this seems to be an interfederation tournament. I have no idea if any of the competitors have trained in anything else. If it opened to the public I'm sure that people that train in other arts will participate, just as BJJ guys show up at Judo tournaments or Karate Guys show up at TKD tournaments. So when that happens - training will have to change in order to compete against other arts strengths. This will expand / develop Hapkido. But what I think people fear is "then what will differentiate Hapkido from any other MMA." 

As beneficial or fun as it may be - it is not hapkido as it was developed or intended. It wasn't made for the ring. I train in Judo as well as Hapkido.(and many early hapkido-in trained in Judo and TKD) Judo helps my Hapkido - Hapkido helps my Judo. BUT - They are different. 

I understand that you just posted the link - why so touchy then? I've said that I agree with you in all  of my posts - that aliveness does benefit an art. I'm just pointing out why it may not be embraced by the Hapkido community under its current nomenclature. 

Gimme some of that popcorn Paul - or I'll break your arm


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## glad2bhere (Feb 9, 2005)

Dear William: 

".....And before you get offended glad, you should recall it was you using the condescending phrase, "but you will need to work with me because this will require using a wider view, 'kay?", insinuating I was incapable of taking grappling's larger history into view. Even though it's a history that has nothing to do with this discussion......" 

Sorry, guy, but regardless of what you may think was there, no condescension was intended or invoked. What you read was a legitimate request for you to work "with" me not "at" me in understanding a very importance diffence. Fact is, William, I am not required to spend time on these nets helping people understand Hapkido for the grand Korean tradition that it is. There are a lot more folks who want to use it and abuse than not, and nobody made me the Little Dutch Boy. Just understand that if you play fast and loose with terms and arts and traditions, sooner or later someone who takes the practice of a martial art more seriously is going to point out where you are incorrect. I don't make the news; I just report it.  FWIW. 

Regards, 

Bruce


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## WilliamJ (Feb 9, 2005)

That's cool, no offense taken or intended. And really I am not trying to critique anyone's training methods or change what HapKiDo is. I just thought people would find the link interesting, and perhaps it might be a good training aid. So please no one take this as me bashing HapKiDo or comparing it to any other art as I have been very careful to avoid either.

 It was not my intention to sound touchy, nor am I mad at you bro. We got a little sidetracked there.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 9, 2005)

Dear Andy: 

You have raised some good questions and therein those questions lies the crux of the problem. It is a matter not so much of what people are doing but the image they wish to project. I have seen this over and over again in the martial arts and have nearly dispaired of addressing the matter in any constructive way. Please allow me to give a few examples. 

1.) In the matter of rank, people want to tout that they have high rank and by having such rank they wish to convey the image that they are supremely and technically profficent. Now the cost of actually becoming technically profficient is a matter of years of development, yet this reality does not stop people from buying rank through an accomodating source and representing themselves that way. 

2.) In the matter of art, people want to convey the image that they slowly and soulfully developed the "old fashioned way" and so may lay claim to being a practitioner of an authentic art. At the same time they want novelty, variety, and knowledge of the "next big thing. Now the cost of authenticity is to subscribe to a particualr way of doing things such that one polishes themselves against the frustration, tedium and hardwork thereby learning about who they are. being distracted by competition and its passing notoriety simply distracts from the shaping that martial arts is about. 

3.) In the matter of growth, people want to convey the image that regardless of the goal there is always a shortcut, that only the misguided waste time not taking those shortcuts and anything that does not focus on the quick, the easy and the powerful is somehow a needless waste of time and resources. 

Your questions speak to the very heart of these three points and for years I have watched as Korean traditions have been ground into sport, commerce and child-care. As a result, with growing frequency anybody who advocates for Korean martial arts endures ridicule not only from practitioners of other arts, but often from ones' own peers. There are those of us who still understand the difference between a "Kwan" and an "association", between an "activity" and a "life-style", between an "art" and a "science". Therefore I can report comfortably that the answer to your questions are "no". 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Kumbajah (Feb 9, 2005)

S'all good - it is interesting. I hope it makes it out east. Thanks for pointing it out. And you forgot Kimura in Judo arm breaks. 

B

Paul where's my friggin' Popcorn!


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## Paul B (Feb 9, 2005)

*munch*munch* "Hamphkifo imph na uh spormph!Hamphkifo imph na uh spormph!"  

Huh,oh...sorry Brian..*hands bag over to Brian*,goes back to muttering darkly on the sidelines.....


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## ajs1976 (Feb 10, 2005)

Bruce,

Thanks for the response.  I figured both of your answers would be no, but it was the explaination I was looking for.

"Image"  That will give me something to chew on for a little while.


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## Kumbajah (Feb 10, 2005)

LOL 
Thanks - I didn't need the whole bag.


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## Kumbajah (Feb 10, 2005)

Hey Bruce,

Just from your previous post I am reading that you are against competition and view it as a distraction. Is this a view that you hold for all MAs or just Hapkido. 

For me personally I think a little "live action" can enhance traditional training. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. In my view they are just extensions of flow drills and can be part of the progression and / or aid  learning. 

In Hapkido most of us (presumptuous I know) start learning a technique through a wrist grab. Then you start to learn from other angles (other grabs, push, punches, sitting etc) You start slow learn the biomechanics of the technique and speed up as you gain proficiency. You have a set attack and a set response when learning x technique. Then you may vary the attack (straight punch vs arching punch). The variety can expand to the point of sparing. Or at least one sided sparing where one is just attacking and one defends. 

In another vein - you don't always practice with the same partner. You learn that everyone doesn't respond to the same techniques the same way. Some people may be more flexible than others and a lock has to be "followed through more" or some people are more or less susceptible to certain pressure points. You learn distancing varies with the person you are practicing with. "wow his leg doesn't look that long" 

So in this light I think that competition can be a valuable aide in the learning process. It will not teach you the art but can help with getting some of the broad strokes down. 

From personal experience - Many of the throws that I learned in Hapkido are similar to those in Judo. There is a nastiness factor in Hapkido granted. But in also learning Judo I am refining those throws and found that I have a grater chance of pulling them off in a sd situation if I can pull them off in a Shiai. Here is someone I don't know (never trained with) they basically know what's coming and are trying to do the same to me. If I can make it work on them - chances are better that I can make it work on someone that doesn't know its coming. 

I agree that I don't want to see Hapkido go down the same road as TKD but I don't think you need to throw out the baby with the bath water. Competition is not a quick fix. It is hard work. It does help with adjusting to the situation or water principle if you will.

Thoughts?

Brian


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## glad2bhere (Feb 10, 2005)

Dear Brian: 

"....Just from your previous post I am reading that you are against competition and view it as a distraction. Is this a view that you hold for all MAs or just Hapkido. ...." 


Whoa!! Good thing you asked. As you say lets not toss the baby with the bath water, right? Some martial arts have transitioned to the point that sports figures quite prominently!  Look at Archery, Judo, Wrestling, TKD, Boxing and Karate just to name a few. All of these have their successful sport component and every one of these had its military component early-on. 
I am a traditional Hapkido person and there never was a "sport component" to the Hapkido arts. And of course, maybe someday there may even be such a component. Who am I to bet against it? What I am here to say is that if "sport" is .22 target rifles, then Hapkido is a ambush fire-fight. If "sport" is archery, then Hapkido is bow-hunting. If "sport" is stock-car racing, then Hapkido is "running moonshine". There is a seriousness of intent behind Hapkido I would hope would never be lost. As it is we already have people talking about how various Korean traditions are "dead". I am here to tell you they may be outdated--- anachronistic, if you will--- but they are not dead by a long shot.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Feb 11, 2005)

WilliamJ said:
			
		

> Greetings gents and ladies. I was browsing around the forum here a little and thought this might be of interest. I did a search and didn't see this topic around so if this is a repeat please forgive.
> 
> Full contact HapKiDo tournaments are making some noise out in CA, and I think it might be a major step in the development and progression of the art. I trained under this forum's own Iron Ox for a few years some time back, hey Kev long time no see bro, and have since trained in Judo and BJJ. The addition of live resistance to HapKiDo seems to me to be a very positiive thing.
> 
> For those who are curious, http://www.pro-hapkido.com/ Take a look in the video section, there is a short demo clip from the tournament DVD.



Hey William,

It has been a while, thanks for remembering me!!    I hope you continue to post your insights here, despite the effort to drag you into a little spat - I have always known you to be one of the most level headed and even tempered guys I have EVER known - and you had to be to put up with our little bunch back in '91-92.

Anyway, as I advised you, there are elements here that are just as well ignored - they already know all the answers - but the rest of the crew here is really a bunch of interesting and useful guys and gals...

I've told you my objections to this particular group.  Aside from the sporting aspects which I am not comfortable with - but it does seem to work well for some people - I'm just not sure how much "Hapkido" can be done in such a strict rules controlled environment.

We'll talk soon!


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## shesulsa (Feb 11, 2005)

*Moderator Note. 

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## glad2bhere (Feb 11, 2005)

Dear William: 

".....Greetings gents and ladies. I was browsing around the forum here a little and thought this might be of interest. I did a search and didn't see this topic around so if this is a repeat please forgive.

Full contact HapKiDo tournaments are making some noise out in CA, and I think it might be a major step in the development and progression of the art. I trained under this forum's own Iron Ox for a few years some time back, hey Kev long time no see bro, and have since trained in Judo and BJJ. The addition of live resistance to HapKiDo seems to me to be a very positiive thing.

For those who are curious, http://www.pro-hapkido.com/ Take a look in the video section, there is a short demo clip from the tournament DVD....." 

Maybe I am hearing this wrong, but with the advent of Kevins post, I am beginning to wonder if this string is less about discussing the various aspects of this activity on the Hapkido community than on promoting a particular agenda. I wouldn't raise this point at all except that if what you are doing is promoting something, there is a place to do that on this Net. Starting a string under the guise of discussion when all you may be doing to trying to get cheap advertizing is a bit dis-ingenuous, don't you think? I am not sure how other people viewed this string but I was looking at it as a discussion of relative merits of the activity. If a person starts a discussion with a particular agenda in mind, I am not sure that the discussion will be authentic as they will say about anything to keep the advertising going.  Is this what you are doing? I am also familiar with the attitude of a few BJJ advocates who often initiate a string under the guise of "discussing things" but are not interested in anything more than deriding other's practices to promote their own material. Hope this isn't what you had in mind here, was it? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## WilliamJ (Feb 14, 2005)

Why would I care about advertising something that I get no profit from? I have not been actively involved in HapKiDo in any way since I last saw Iron Ox. The only agenda here was support of live training, which I am quite a fan of. If I wanted to sell things I would at least shill upcoming seminars at a school I actually attend.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 14, 2005)

".....Why would I care about advertising something that I get no profit from?...." 

Yes, I understand that position implicitly. My mistake. 

Regards, 

Bruce


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## austinso (Feb 15, 2005)

Sorry to butt in but...

I would like to point out that this tournament is under the auspices of the World Hapkido Association, and that at this tournament, GM Hwang In Sik & GM Han Bong Soo were present.

Note that GM Hwang is the head instructor of the WHA, so discussions about "authenticity to the spirit of hapkido" are moot I think...

Austin


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## austinso (Feb 15, 2005)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Aside from the sporting aspects which I am not comfortable with - but it does seem to work well for some people - I'm just not sure how much "Hapkido" can be done in such a strict rules controlled environment.


In fact the rules were designed so that free-fighting is not stifled. As you will note, points are deducted for being overly defensive and for sitting around. Moreover, combinations are awarded more points. Brawling is not allowed, and techniques executed *properly* score higher.

Points are usually scored in a cumulative manner and fighting is not stopped to announce an awarded point...the fighting stops when someone taps out or gets injured/knocked out.

Why does it end up in grappling/throwing? Quite simply because people are usually better at this than applying hand techniques in a free-fighting situation...and so it is a reflection of their training more than anything else.

Just so you are aware...these rules are based on the "scoring" that Master Hwang uses during his free-fighting class.

Austin


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## WilliamJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Well, it is easier to grab a person by the arm or gi lapels than by the fingers. Bigger targets, slower moving. That would explain why alot of it ends up like that. Did you attend any of these tournaments? Sounds like you know quite a bit more about them than I do.


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## Paul B (Feb 27, 2005)

I just thought I'd inform you guys that I'll be in Ohio next weekend and get a good chance to see a Hapkido tourny first hand,as well as taking in a couple workshops with a certain member of this forum...:wink2:

I am really looking forward to observing how one would employ Hapkido techniques in a ring,so I'll definitely be back here with some pic's and observations,however lacking in substance they may be.(observations,that is)


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## ajs1976 (Feb 28, 2005)

Paul,

Where at in Ohio?


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## WilliamJ (Feb 28, 2005)

What date is the tourney? I will be very curious to hear your opinion on what you see.


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## Paul B (Feb 28, 2005)

The good ol' Ahhnald Classic in Columbus. I guess they are having a Hapkido tourny this year,soooo I am definitely gonna check that out. 

I will say that I am obviously biased towards "Sport MA",but I will try my best to keep an open mind. I am sure that I'll have fun,though. Not really sure on the exact date,it has to be either the 4,5 or 6th,though..:uhyeah:


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## ajs1976 (Feb 28, 2005)

Main webpage

http://www.arnoldmartialarts.com/home.html


Looks like Master Timmerman is doing a workshop.

http://www.arnoldmartialarts.com/martial%20artists%20workshop%20list.html


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## Paul B (Feb 28, 2005)

That's right,Andy....:wink2:


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## Dusty (Feb 28, 2005)

Hi Paul and all. i plan on being there too. i was originally going to help Master Pinkowski with the running of the tourny, but i havent heard anything from him, so i am just going to go down and take in the sights. the hapkido tourny is on the saturday. i also plan on taking in Master Timmerman;s seminar as well. i am a long distance student of his, so i take in whatever i can from him. for anyone else that might be in the area, his seminars are well worth the money. i would highly reccomend them to any martial artist.

see you there.


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## WilliamJ (Mar 1, 2005)

That's Arnie for you, always trying to add something new to the competition. Good luck to those competing. Some of my BJJ compatriots are going down to compete. An 8 hour drive to maybe get 5 minutes of competition just doesn't seem worth it to me though.


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## iron_ox (Mar 3, 2005)

Hello all,

Just so we are all clear what type of organization we have here promoting these events.  Here is a little tidbit about the man listed on the World Hapkido Association website as the senior instructor - he is listed first on the site...choe, hui son:

_Example of What a Black Belt Should Not Be

6/7/2001, by Noel S. Brady, reporter for Eastside Journal in Washington State

A martial arts master yesterday struck a plea bargain with prosecutors and admitted to wielding a samurai sword that caused the death of a Bellevue business man.

Hui Son Choe, 40, pleaded guilty to first-degree manslaughter for the death of 37-year-old Ki Gol Lee, which occurred after an argument between the two men turned violent.

King County Prosecutor's spokesman Dan Donohoe said the state will recommend a judge sentence Lee to 9½ years in prison. A sentencing hearing is scheduled for June 29.

At the time of the April 2000 melee, Choe lived in Spanaway and ran a martial arts school in Federal Way. A seventh-degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, Choe also was well respected as a master and innovator of Hap Ki Do, a lesser-known martial art about which he's written a book.

A Korean immigrant who helped other Koreans secure home and business loans, Lee showed up at Choe's dojo and confronted him in a parking lot there, prosecutors say. Witnesses told police the two began arguing, but a fight broke out after Choe rushed Lee with a drawn samurai sword.

The fight ended after Lee sustained a 2½-foot-long gash to his inner right thigh, severing his femoral artery. He died early the next morning at Harborview Medical Center.

Detectives followed a trail of blood into Choe's school. Inside, they found a bloody samurai sword and blood-spattered clothing that matched witness' descriptions of the sword fighter.

They later arrested Choe at his Spanaway home.

Donohoe said it's still unclear what the two men where arguing about. Prosecutors originally charged Choe with second-degree murder, but that charge was reduced for lack of evidence, he said.

``We felt there were some proof problems to get murder-two,'' he said._

choe pleaded guilty to first degree manslaughter.

Now, generally, I don't care about a single bad apple in a bunch, we have all seen them before - but this group WHA - still lists this guy and worse STILL SELLS HIS MATERIALS - books and tapes for profit - now if they said that the money from the sale of these items went 100% to the family of the man choe killed - I would applaud them - as they stand now I say - BOYCOTT THEM!!!!

choe is listed as a Hapkido master - who killed an unarmed man with a sword - and the WHA has so little common sense they have a picture of choe with a sword in his hand...

You can all decide for yourselves - I already have...


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## WilliamJ (Mar 3, 2005)

That is pretty despicable. But I would point out the Arnold-Gracie tournament is a independent thing and not the same as the WHA tournaments that were mentioned before.

I do agree though, the WHA should disassociate themselves with someone convicted of murder.


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## Dusty (Mar 3, 2005)

Sir, dont mistake the wha with the wkf. i am almost 100% sure it is grandmaster Seo's org that is sponsoring this tournament.what choe did is despicable and he should be removed from the wha, but they are two different org.'s


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## iron_ox (Mar 3, 2005)

Hello all,

This thread is about the WHA's "Pro-Hapkido" Tournament.  I will reference only that group for this discussion.


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## iron_ox (Mar 3, 2005)

WilliamJ said:
			
		

> Greetings gents and ladies. I was browsing around the forum here a little and thought this might be of interest. I did a search and didn't see this topic around so if this is a repeat please forgive.
> 
> Full contact HapKiDo tournaments are making some noise out in CA, and I think it might be a major step in the development and progression of the art. I trained under this forum's own Iron Ox for a few years some time back, hey Kev long time no see bro, and have since trained in Judo and BJJ. The addition of live resistance to HapKiDo seems to me to be a very positiive thing.
> 
> For those who are curious, http://www.pro-hapkido.com/ Take a look in the video section, there is a short demo clip from the tournament DVD.



Hello all,

Just so we are all clear what type of organization we have here promoting these events. Here is a little tidbit about the man listed on the World Hapkido Association website as the senior instructor - he is listed first on the site...choe, hui son:

Example of What a Black Belt Should Not Be

6/7/2001, by Noel S. Brady, reporter for Eastside Journal in Washington State

A martial arts master yesterday struck a plea bargain with prosecutors and admitted to wielding a samurai sword that caused the death of a Bellevue business man.

Hui Son Choe, 40, pleaded guilty to first-degree manslaughter for the death of 37-year-old Ki Gol Lee, which occurred after an argument between the two men turned violent.

King County Prosecutor's spokesman Dan Donohoe said the state will recommend a judge sentence Lee to 9½ years in prison. A sentencing hearing is scheduled for June 29.

At the time of the April 2000 melee, Choe lived in Spanaway and ran a martial arts school in Federal Way. A seventh-degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, Choe also was well respected as a master and innovator of Hap Ki Do, a lesser-known martial art about which he's written a book.

A Korean immigrant who helped other Koreans secure home and business loans, Lee showed up at Choe's dojo and confronted him in a parking lot there, prosecutors say. Witnesses told police the two began arguing, but a fight broke out after Choe rushed Lee with a drawn samurai sword.

The fight ended after Lee sustained a 2½-foot-long gash to his inner right thigh, severing his femoral artery. He died early the next morning at Harborview Medical Center.

Detectives followed a trail of blood into Choe's school. Inside, they found a bloody samurai sword and blood-spattered clothing that matched witness' descriptions of the sword fighter.

They later arrested Choe at his Spanaway home.

Donohoe said it's still unclear what the two men where arguing about. Prosecutors originally charged Choe with second-degree murder, but that charge was reduced for lack of evidence, he said.

``We felt there were some proof problems to get murder-two,'' he said.

choe pleaded guilty to first degree manslaughter.

Now, generally, I don't care about a single bad apple in a bunch, we have all seen them before - but this group WHA - still lists this guy and worse STILL SELLS HIS MATERIALS - books and tapes for profit - now if they said that the money from the sale of these items went 100% to the family of the man choe killed - I would applaud them - as they stand now I say - BOYCOTT THEM!!!!

choe is listed as a Hapkido master - who killed an unarmed man with a sword - and the WHA has so little common sense they have a picture of choe with a sword in his hand...

You can all decide for yourselves - I already have...

*Does that make it clearer?

I will not discuss Seo, In Sun - it has a tendency to get bad vibes started here.*


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## WilliamJ (Mar 3, 2005)

Again I do agree, the WHA should discontinue any association/promotion/sales of that mans merchandise. I did not know about that guy when I started the thread. The only reason I mentioned the Arnold's is that it came up during the course of discussion.


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## Paul B (Mar 6, 2005)

Allright, I said I would come back and give my impression and here goes....


LOL..There wasn't one....:idunno:  It turns out we had one lonely,poor KSW guy show up who wanted to spar. I think the word wasn't sent out properly,and I think this was a "testing the waters" period for next year.

We had a great time with everyone doing demo's and generally just out practicing technique with whoever felt like practicing.  I made some new Hapki-buds and have a lot to look forward to in the coming year.

On a side-note,the blessed lack of politics were an added bonus. We had guys from IHF,WHF,WKF,WKSA,from all over the place and in-between,and everyone shared their Hapkido in a brotherly fashion. It was really a great experience. I would encourage everyone to attend next year's event,as it's looking like we'll have a much better turn out. 

So...sorry I couldn't give you an "insiders" look at a Hapkido tourny,I guess we'll just have to wait until next year. :asian:


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## WilliamJ (Mar 7, 2005)

Well that's a little disappointing but it was the first time for it. Hopefully it will be better run than the BJJ comp down there is. Every year there are huge delays, people waiting 6,7, even 8 hours for matches.

Inspite of that I think the Arnold's is a great venue for everyone, hopefully they do a better job of getting the word out next year.


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## glad2bhere (Mar 7, 2005)

Since I didn't make it to the event, can anyone give a kind of thumbnail or timeline for what went down?  Were there workshops/seminars?  Were there demos? Were weapons covered? Were people outside of KMA attending, and if so, how did they reconcile the variety of backgrounds with activities on the mats?  Just a few thoughts to push the discussion along. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## WilliamJ (Mar 7, 2005)

Here is a link to the website.

http://www.arnoldmartialarts.com

Basically it's all part of the Ahnold fitness weekend. Body building, powerlifting, fitness competitions and martial arts of all types. From what I have heard they have demonstration competitions, breaking, forms, team demos, grappling competitions and this year they added MMA and HapKiDo tournaments. They really cover a TON of ground.


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## glad2bhere (Mar 7, 2005)

Thanks for the help. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Paul B (Mar 7, 2005)

Hi Bruce,

Workshops were the only reason I went! 

There were different workshops for just about everything you could think of in different rooms in different halls. Business,Kobudo,Archery,Iaido,Hapkido,Kickboxing,Shootfighting,Jujutsu,BJJ,Karate,Knife fighting,and Kali are just a few of the ones I remember seeing.I do have a list somewhere,but the schedule was way off from what it said.Try to imagine the United Center in Chicago jammed pack with people and MAists. In scope,it was the largest spectacle I have ever seen.

As far as different arts practicing together,the workshops were put together in a one hour format,so they were not very "deep" *with exception to Mr. Timmerman's..ouch * so being of different backgrounds really wasn't an issue.

I don't recall seeing a KMA weapons workshop,or I would have been all over it. Shame.

Demo's:

Now this was really great from a Hapkido point of veiw. For our Hapkido demo,we had guys from a lot of Org's and view's just out there doing their stuff. It was pretty much a "Hey..you wanna go out there?" type of thing.

 A ton of people gathered around the mats to watch and ask questions. It was a lot of fun.I have some gorgeous video I shot that tells the story. There was a sad lack of a concrete timetable to go by,but I think that next year the Hapkido section will be head and shoulders above this years event. Hopefully you'll get to make it out,as it was pretty cool just to watch a little of everything after you went to your workshops,of course. Good time.


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## glad2bhere (Mar 7, 2005)

Paul: 

Check yer PM. 

Best, 

B.


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## kwanjang (Mar 7, 2005)

I had asked in another thread to have Paul give us some of his insights, sorry I did not realize you had already done so here.  I appreciate the comments, and I also was taken by surprise about the lack of organization.  for example.  As far as I knew I had just one seminar to do on Saturday.  I found out that, according to their printed schedule (so they had lots of time to inform me), that I was scheduled to do three.  One was supposed to be done on Friday morning (I did not even leave until Friday morning, and the drive is 10 hours lol).  

Then I was scheduled for Sunday as well.  I could not stay for that, as I had to drive back, get a day of rest, and then drive to Jackson.  Moreover, this thing was scheduled at the same time the tournament was going on, and I was supposed to help run that????  In any case, we thought the tournament would be on Saturday.  My students cannot possibly do one on Sunday, as that is when we drive back (Moms just won't let their kids miss school

So, yes... we have some major work to be done, and we could use everyone's help with it next year; however, I strongly suggest we start NOW if we want these Hap Ki Do events to run well.

On the plus side... no politics and lots of good stuff to see (if you are into seeing skin, you can have a blast lol).  Everything from Weightlifting to Cheer leading, and everyone getting along fine


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## Paul B (Mar 7, 2005)

> (if you are into seeing skin, you can have a blast lol).


:rofl: 

I'm glad you said it...lol

One comment made by a buddy..."I have never seen so many people in one place with no necks having arms and legs the size of trees wearing so little clothing....and then you have the men." 

There were some "colorful " people there,for sure.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 7, 2005)

I like it-great...why not?????


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