# Changing the sparring...



## Makalakumu (Apr 8, 2008)

One of the big issues I see in most TSD schools is that the sparring looks nothing like what is practiced in basics or in the forms.  The disconnect between forms, basics, and sparring is part of this, however, even in schools that have taken a "bunkai based" approach to the system, the sparring still does not resemble what the kata are actually showing.

My initial thoughts on this are that TSD sparring, whether or not there is contact, basically is patterned off of tournament sparring.  At some point in time, this method of sparring has got to go because it does not reflect what is being practiced in the art, thus is not entirely useful for developing real skill in kata self defense skills.

With that being said, what would be a more effective way to spar?  How can you change sparring so that it better prepares students to defend themselves in a real fight AND so that it reflects in basics and kata?  How can you make it "safe" for students to practice?

By "safe" I mean reduce the risk of injury, not remove it.


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## FieldDiscipline (Apr 8, 2008)

I highly recommend Geoff Thompson's book 'Animal Day'. You will find what you seek within its pages.  I can summarise later, alas I dont have time now!


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## CuongNhuka (Apr 8, 2008)

If you don't mind my posting (being a non-Tang Soo Do guy). Cuong Nhu sparring rules make it so we don't really look like a tournament-based style.

Cuong Nhu sparring rules:
- Sweeps and reaps to students above Green Belt are ok (1/3 way to Black Belt).
- Throws are ok to students above Brown Belt (2/3 way to Black Belt).
- You can catch a punch, or kick. This counts as a sweep in terms of who you can use it against.
- You can kick the thigh and groin (with control). Groin kicks are worth one point, thigh is worth none.
- You can punch the head. The face becomes a target at Black Belt.
- Any strike to the body, head, face, or groin is worth one point (assuming point fighting is being done).
- if a technique looks cheap or accidental (your hand slid from blocking to there chest, and this is not done on purpose) it does not count. Judges discretion. This is an unspoken rule.

Cuong Nhu schools don't noramlly point fight, and the rules we use tends to make it hard to go to tournaments. But you can see how our rules make it hard to be a like one of the various point fighting focused schools.


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## zohran (Apr 8, 2008)

Greetings,

Well I've been reading these boards for awhile now and thought that I'd chime in.  I'm currently a TSD 1st Gup training for my BB test around August/September.

It's my opinion that sparring has two categories(both valuable):

Free Sparring and Tournament/Point sparring.

Free Sparring is where a student would utilize all techniques available at their belt level using (supervised) controlled contact.  This is more valuable training to a martial artist in regards to everyday self defense.  Not only does it teach a student control, how to move,  throw and connect with techniques, it also allows them to understand how to TAKE a hit.(Remember, i did say controlled contact.)  You have to know both if you wish to survive on the street.  The higher in rank, the more complex the techniques and also a bit harder on the contact.  A progressive scale if you will.  The upside to this method of training will also allow a student to become a better tournament/point fighter as well.

Tournament/Point Sparring is specifically designed for friendly competition.  You look for the opening...score the points... shake hands.  Scoring points won't work out on the street.  I'm not saying that this type of sparring is bad either...it just has a different purpose.  The good thing about this type of sparring is that it does teach you about distance, creating openings in defenses and so on. But..so does free sparring.   I think the main benefit to this type of sparring doesn't show up until the student is competing in tournaments outside of the dojang.  Fighting your peers within the dojang can get a bit stale after awhile.  You end up knowing how all your opponents fight.  In a tournament, a student is introduced to fresh, diverse thinking in an opponent.  Not only that but the added benefit of developing friendships with other martial artists and also opening their eyes to the rest of the martial arts world.  

So basically....Free (real) sparring is better as a whole but tournament/point sparring can be useful as well.


But that's just me...hehehe


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## DavidCC (Apr 8, 2008)

IMHO the problem is not really that the rules are not alowing the aprrers to use techniques.  I believe (and have been trying to address this at my school) that the problem is in the nature of the attacks.

One thing we've tries is, instead of setting it up as 2 sparrers sparring, specify one person as "mugger" and one as "passerby".  Both geared up to your level of comfort.  Stand the "passerby" in the middle of the floor with eyes closed.  Mugger then picks a rnadom direction to attack from, and stand 10 feet away (or less).  On "GO" the mugger attacks (passerby opens his eyes of course).  Mugger should not close to just outside range and square up in a fighting stance.  Mugger needs to adopt the mindset of a mugger and attempt to land a knockout blow to the head or similar, and must continue the assault until he can "take the passerby's wallet"

It takes a lot of guts to be the mugger.

The pucker factor is pretty high on both parties.  Which is what you want, isn't it?


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## MBuzzy (Apr 8, 2008)

I can definately see WHY we do point sparring and tournament style.  It is very controlled and almost eliminates liability at the lower levels.  Generally the rules keeps the younger belts from doing anything really dangerous, which is unfortunately what the world has come to.  If we tried to implement any more realistic rules, I'm afraid that we would start running into legal problems....

Another observation.  Within Soo Bahk Do, attempts have been made to better integrate our hyung into sparring.  Basically, they have made certain movements worth more points to try to encourage their use.  The bad part about this is that a great many people (in my experience) are very misguided in their use.  Basically they throw the technique just for the extra points - not because that technique fits.  You see a lot of extraneous movement from this. 

I really don't know what the solution is, but I agree with you.  When you look at a group of people sparring, it should be easy to tell what style they came from, instead for the most part, everyone looks the same in sparring.


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## zohran (Apr 8, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> If we tried to implement any more realistic rules, I'm afraid that we would start running into legal problems....



That line right there pretty much sums up alot of the training changes that have happened in the last 20 years. (As well as other things in the world.) Just think back to martial arts training back in the 80's.  It was totally different. Tournaments? A bit different as well.  Everybody wants to sue everybody now.  sigh......

Times change and that makes people within the martial arts rethink training to compensate.  Which is why we are here 

DavidCC, it sounds as if you are setting up situational scenarios more so then sparring.  That would work well learning techniques and is a great step bridging the gap between learning/applying techniques and real world self defense.  Basically taking Ho Sin Sul and adding to it a bit.  I like your idea and would like to suggest it to my instructor, if you don't mind that is?

I'm rereading upnorthkyosa's original post and realized i just skimmed it earlier.  Bad me. bad me.  

It's a tough set of questions.  

It would be nice to be able to tell what style a person knows by the way they spar.  But with the melding of so many different martial arts these days, it's too hard.  Also, you would need to know about the other various styles in the first place.  Most run of the mill martial artists don't take that deep of a look into other styles.  It's the devout ones that do the research that can say "Hey, he doesn't throw many kicks to the head, I bet his style is more of a Japanese/Okinawan origin." (Yes i know that's not always the case with Japanese/Okinawan styles...i've been kicked in the head many times by them but as styles go, they don't utilize many high kicks... too much of a risk)  But i think you get the point, without the research, most people wouldn't pick up the differences in styles anyway.

I touched on it above but, there are styles that have the same techniques as other styles. That makes a bit more difficult in identifying styles.  Now add in the newer hybrid arts out there.  They pick up techniques from all styles.  Talk about being difficult.....

As for incorporating the basic techniques from the Hyungs into sparring...I dunno.  Personally i wouldn't want to see a student sitting in a perfect Ha Dan Mahk Ki while sparring.  Why?  His head is open to attack and there is always someone faster then you in the world.  Bad Bad Mojo having your hands down while fighting in a real life situation.

How do you make it safe to practice??? Supervision, control, proper equipment...the same practices used throughout a normal training day.

I'm still thinking on this so will probably have more input later.  I've thoroughly enjoyed reading the conversations/debates here.  You are all a wealth of information and i love the open-mindedness I've seen here.


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## exile (Apr 8, 2008)

FieldDiscipline said:


> I highly recommend Geoff Thompson's book 'Animal Day'. You will find what you seek within its pages.  I can summarise later, alas I dont have time now!





DavidCC said:


> IMHO the problem is not really that the rules are not alowing the aprrers to use techniques.  I believe (and have been trying to address this at my school) that the problem is in the nature of the attacks.
> 
> One thing we've tries is, instead of setting it up as 2 sparrers sparring, specify one person as "mugger" and one as "passerby".  Both geared up to your level of comfort.  Stand the "passerby" in the middle of the floor with eyes closed.  Mugger then picks a rnadom direction to attack from, and stand 10 feet away (or less).  On "GO" the mugger attacks (passerby opens his eyes of course).  Mugger should not close to just outside range and square up in a fighting stance.  Mugger needs to adopt the mindset of a mugger and attempt to land a knockout blow to the head or similar, and must continue the assault until he can "take the passerby's wallet"
> 
> ...



I think you two are on very much the same page (and I'm there with you. )

The problem is that sparring which consists of putting two MA technicians in a given space and asking them to apply their techniques until one has eliminated the other, in some relatively non-lethal way, is not the kind of situation that the creators of the MAs envisaged. They saw MAs as instruments of self-preservation against violent attackers with no technical training but uncontrolled destructive natures that made them extremely dangerous. The MAs weren't created for dueling, but for giving you the tools you needed to survive, and the techniques built into the forms that the TMAs teach were devised for that very purpose. They presuppose a small set of violent attack initiations that you learn to recognize and preempt with counterviolence of your own. To train them so that they still offer those capabilities, you have to train against simulated street attacks that come close to the damaging possibilities of the real thing.

Geoff Thompson, Iain Abernethy, Peyton Quinn and others have all written about how to go about doing this, with different angles on the problem. But what they all have in common is the view that sparring as we understand it has to be replaced with realistically violent simulated street encounters, if MA training is going to allow you to sharpen and develop the tools latent the kata and hyungs we study.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 9, 2008)

I think that a concept that should be integrated in any bunkai based system, is resistance.  There should be some form of resistence even at white belt level.  I can see a new type of sparring flowing from drills that are shown in the hyung where gradually more and more resistence is applied until both tangsoodoin are free to act how they wish, within the bounds of the drill.  Does that make sense?


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## DavidCC (Apr 9, 2008)

zohran said:


> DavidCC, it sounds as if you are setting up situational scenarios more so then sparring. That would work well learning techniques and is a great step bridging the gap between learning/applying techniques and real world self defense. Basically taking Ho Sin Sul and adding to it a bit. I like your idea and would like to suggest it to my instructor, if you don't mind that is?


 
LOL please take the idea and make it better then come back and tell us 

IMHO sparring has lessons to teach but "how to apply your techniques under pressure" is not one of them.

If you know the guy is going to punch you why don't you just punch him first?  that is why techniques <> sparring.  The exercise I outlined attempts to put a defender into a street attack situation where there is an aggressor and a defender.  Sparring there is no such thing, there are 2 competitors.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 9, 2008)

I think it'd be awesome if we could integrate ho sin sul techniques into sparring...but that'd be a bit dangerous, and there'd be too many injuries. Oh well...

I agree that sparring typically doesn't resemble the hyung, even down to stance. But you have to remember that the hyung are like code; you're not going to stay in a static chungul jase for very long (unless you're putting on the pain of a joint lock), nor are you going to take your time with moves like you would do performing hyung. A typical block in sparring is just a simple, short movement with the hand, or even just a rotation of the hips to deflect an attack with the forearm as you come in to counterattack. Same concepts from hyung techniques apply, though. You have to use your hips for power, watch your center of gravity, and keep yourself defended. 

We've been doing a lot of sparring drills at my dojang lately; a lot of it is just putting pressure on and then following up with a second, third, and fourth attack, after you open up the target. Good strategies. I agree that it's still very "tournament"-based, though. 

But then again, like I said, if I sparred in class the way I would if it were a real fight, I wouldn't trade kicks and punches, I'd go in for some ho sin sul grabs and throws. To borrow from Japanese terminology, since I don't know the Korean: IPPON!!!!!

Tang Soo!


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## DatFlow (Apr 9, 2008)

upnorthkyosa said:


> One of the big issues I see in most TSD schools is that the sparring looks nothing like what is practiced in basics



Speaking of this, My teacher just went over this yesterday... I don't really see where you not see basic moves and kick's in the sparring, because i know we use every one of them... I use all my 5 one step sparring techniques in free sparing, and never did torney sparring yet...



> or in the forms.


This I DO NOT agree with... Take Keecho Hyung Il Bu for instance.. The first front low block you perfrom... This could be a (TRY to picture this, i may need to just video tape it...) 2nd block, counter (say, elbow manipulation,) to grab around him, and reach for his face... yep, i'm definatly going to have to record this one... Give me a day or two... lol


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