# Kiai, shout....



## loki09789 (Feb 4, 2004)

I have never heard of or been taught any shouting or kiai type of techniques in my FMA experience.  My question is whether any FMAs that the readers know of uses a kiai/shouting techniques, formally.  If so, what is the purpose?

I know that kiai's are suppose to, spiritually, awake the chi energy for the fighter.  It is also a way of coordinating muscle tension to create maximum power.  Mentally, it is suppose to psych you up and the opponent out (and maybe hurt his/her ears and startle them)

Paul M


----------



## arnisandyz (Feb 5, 2004)

don't know, good question.  I've heard the kiai used as a focusing of energy in more traditional - harder styles.  It would seem strange to use in a FMA enviornment because everytime I have seen a Karate or TKD person use it, it seemed like they were rooted and delivering alot of power - stopping the "flow" if you will.  With FMA's focus on flowing and contiuation it doesn't seem like it fits in (unless its a finishing blow or something).  I don't know Chinese styles very well, but the question would be valid towards that as well, since most kungfu seems more flowing than Karate.

Andy


----------



## loki09789 (Feb 5, 2004)

I have seen Chinese stylists using both a single shouting kiai and a kind of hissing/growling exhale during striking/movement patterns.  So, I guess it could theoritically be either one that I am asking about in FMA's

Paul M


----------



## bart (Feb 5, 2004)

I've never been trained to shout in the FMA formally. But it has been suggested informally. I've seen it alot in practitioners who also do Karate. It is always present in forms competitions. 

In Kung Fu (Chinese Martial Arts) I think it depends on the style or school, but for the most part it there is no Kiai. The only writing suggesting it that I've seen is from Erle Montaigue. The growling hiss, is probably not purposeful, although some of the breathing in some styles of Kung Fu is heavy and may result in a growling hiss from some practitioners. 

I think many of the reasons why much FMA does not formally teach the kiai are the same as those in Kung Fu. Kiai is a form of telegraphing intent and direction. In many ways it is very much akin to saying* "I am going to try and hit you right now! And right there!" *Telegraphing of movement is something that you want to avoid in my opinion. Also when you are doing palusot or controlled sparring, you most definitely want to keep your mouth closed. If you don't you might find yourself suffering dental injury. A closed mouth kiai just wouldn't have the same effect either. 

All the kiai work I've seen in FMA is something of an import from other systems that teachers and students cross train or previously trained. A kiai is somewhat counterintuitive to a lot of the training I've done.


----------



## loki09789 (Feb 6, 2004)

A good kiai, in application is suppose to be executed at the same moment the strike lands, not before, thus eliminating the telegraphing problem.  If it is telegraphing the movement/intention, it isn't being used correctly.  The idea, best I know, is to overwhelm the opponent on as many levels as possible:  physically with the technique and environmentally with the sound.  

I agree that most of the kiai type training that I have seen looks imported.  Maybe because most FMA's that I have been exposed to are more 'fighting' arts and not 'spiritual' arts like traditional systems usually stemming from Zen/Taoist sources.


Paul M


----------



## grimfang (Feb 7, 2004)

This is just ONE theory behind the general lack of Kiai in the FMA. This is by no means any 'official' explaination and there are almost certainly many more explainations of equal legitimacy.
The explaination I have learned:  During the Spanish rule of the islands, any type of combat training among the native population was banned. Thus, the Filipino's trained secretly and QUIETLY. 

One application of the Kiai that is often overlooked: It is an excellent way to help younger students remember to breath proplerly. Young/new students often have a habit of holding their breath without being aware of it... a good Kiai will help the student become aware of his/her breathing process and exhale fully on the strike.

Personally, I like to think of the words of Richard Prior when he said "I don't mind you whippin' my ***, but don't be hollerin' at me while you do it!"


----------



## bart (Feb 7, 2004)

> During the Spanish rule of the islands, any type of combat training among the native population was banned. Thus, the Filipino's trained secretly and QUIETLY.




I've heard that one too. But I've always been resistant to it. Sticks banging together always make noise, much more than a kiai. 

Also the Spanish used different Filipino tribes to fight against each other. The Spanish held power in the Philippines by playing upon regional biases and tribal emnity to keep the archipelago in a state of aboriginal disunity. They didn't need to stop the fighting arts, they needed Filipinos to keep their fighting ability strong so that they would be really good at killing each other thus earning the ire of other tribes and keeping the Spanish in control.  



> A good kiai, in application is suppose to be executed at the same moment the strike lands, not before, thus eliminating the telegraphing problem



I agree that it is the intent. But what about in the use of multiple strikes. For instance in Doce Pares when we do controlled sparring we hit sometimes 4 or more times in a second.  How would the kiai work in that situation? I believe it would be somewhat difficult to make a sound for each strike. 



> One application of the Kiai that is often overlooked: It is an excellent way to help younger students remember to breath proplerly. Young/new students often have a habit of holding their breath without being aware of it... a good Kiai will help the student become aware of his/her breathing process...




I agree totally about that problem with young/new students. I've also found that hitting a tire stack or a heavy bag also will train proper breathing in a similar way.  



> ...and exhale fully on the strike.



Again though, how would one handle the kiai in multiple strikes? You certainly wouldn't want to let it all go on the first strike.  Would you exhale fully on the last strike? Some of our combinations can go past 5 strikes. What then?


----------



## lhommedieu (Feb 8, 2004)

I've never seen it formally taught in FMA, although I have seen Filipino martial artists use it on occasion.  As someone suggested above, this may be as a result of cross-training.

Certainly yelling or screaming is one of the most primal reactions that one can have when placed under extreme stress.  Training this reaction, and using it to focus one's intention, appears to have developed to a great extent in Okinawa and Japan, although it occurs in Chinese martial arts as well.  (In general, however, many Chinese arts train the control of breathing as a physiological mechanism for training the body, and there is as equal emphasis on the Yin side of the cycle as the Yang side.) 

I can remember my first karate teacher describing the use of the kiai in traditional Okinawan karate:  "he took his heart" is an expression that meant that the opponent was so psychologically unsettled by the explosive sound of the kiai that occured a split second before the strike made impact with his body, that he lost his ability to counter.

Of course, I've met plenty of individuals who are capable of ignoring any noises the opponent is making...

I agree that the kiai may have limited use when you are striking many times and moving around quickly; shallow, fast in and out breathing through the nose seems more appropriate here.

One aspect of the kiai that I have been taught involves its use as a defensive mechanism when being hit, locked, or thrown.  In my personal experience, I've been hurt less if I kiai'ed than if I did not.

Best,

Steve Lamade


----------



## loki09789 (Feb 11, 2004)

I forgot about the defensive use of Kiai's.  The coordinated muscle contraction around a target can act as a muscle 'armor' when done well.

When I think if Kiai now, it includes the Okinawan/Japanes style of the single shout but also includes what I saw on Tom Boldens the Spectrum of Modern Arnis where he is making almost a growling stream of noises as he is using multiple, rapid striking combinations.  Very intimidating because it sounds primal and like predatory animal noises.  I just don't know if that is from an FMA source or from his Chinese/Korean/Brazillian arts backgrounds.

Doesn't sound like it is likely FMA from the postings so far.

Paul M


----------



## arnisandyz (Feb 11, 2004)

When Datu Shishir of Modern Arnis does multiple strikes he does a shallow "hissing" exhale like "sssuttt...ssssutt...sssutttt"  (sounds like my mom calling me to get my attention).  However, besides Modern Arnis he is also heavily involved in Hilot, natural healing ,meditation, etc. so my guys is that it came from this.  Its almost like how a boxer inhales and exhales when throwing punches.


----------



## Guro Harold (Feb 11, 2004)

Yeah, The Professor did that too to a degree.


----------



## loki09789 (Feb 11, 2004)

"Yeah, The Professor did that too to a degree."

Did he ever explain why, or encourage/instruct others to do it also?

Paul M


----------



## Guro Harold (Feb 11, 2004)

Hi Paul M,

I don't recall him ever saying it to the audience.  It was his personal style, just like when he said, "Bang!!!"

However, he usually would highly stress to inject energy into your techniques. 

Harold


----------



## arnisandyz (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Palusut _
> *Hi Paul M,
> 
> However, he usually would highly stress to inject energy into your techniques.
> ...



Professor.... "You hap to INJECT HERE!"
....and down he goes.


----------

