# Time!!



## Disco (Oct 11, 2004)

We have all seen the ongoing problems that seem to be deeply entrenched within the Hapkido world. At least from the Korean storefront. No need to go back and rehash all the wrongs that have been done. I do submit this question however for the future.

Isn't it time.....really time, for American Hapkidoin to take charge of their own? Many, if not all of the problems being inacted today could and should be eliminated with home rule. I broached this subject awhile back on another forum and it was politely given minimal response. Perhaps now is a better time frame to renew the possibilities. Again, no need to restate what everybody has seen happen, but some major developments have transpired which should alter some peoples perspectives. 

 :asian:


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## iron_ox (Oct 11, 2004)

Hello Disco,

The man that was given the Doju nim title directly by Choi, Yong Sul lives here in the States, in New York (Manhatten, I believe).  Can't get much more home rule than that.

If you are a follower of Ji, Han Jae, he has lived here in the States for many years.

I will continue to travel to Korea because it is a benchmark of training and technique of the kind I am looking for - and not readily found here in the states - and frankly, the Koreans I found in Korea so far are quite different than those here in the US - they are willing to share knowledge and experience without predjudice...

Maybe the issue is not home rule at all but the need to slow down the rank mills - many of which are in Korea - or simply to ignore those organizations that are the cause of so much trouble.

For those of you that think that these forums are only really populated by a few of us, I have had at least 24 new prospective students approach me with questions from stuff they read here...

Also , to add, there are very few Americans with strong lineage to authentic Hapkido anyway - maybe the idea to home rule is is best addressed as self-rule , like self rule of each school.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## ajs1976 (Oct 11, 2004)

As a person who would like to study Hapkido, it is very frustrating and confusing to try to figure out what is going on.  There are some many different organizations, that it is hard to tell which ones are legitimate and which are just scams.  

I don't know that cutting out the Korean influence will help.  There seems to be enough politics here too.


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## Master Todd Miller (Oct 11, 2004)

As a person who would like to study Hapkido, it is very frustrating and confusing to try to figure out what is going on. There are some many different organizations, that it is hard to tell which ones are legitimate and which are just scams. 

I don't know that cutting out the Korean influence will help. There seems to be enough politics here.

The best thing you can do as a person starting out in Hapkido is go and visit some dojangs.  If you like the Instructor you have made a good start.  The only cautions I offer is watch out for those that call themselves Founder, Great Grandmaster or other names that lack humility.  There may be a person in your area that is truly a Founder of some art but it is unlikely.  Watch out for anyone that just talks about themselves and all they have done!  Any true Master or Grandmaster will have a humble but confident demeanor.
 :asian: 
Take care

www.millersmudo.com


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## iron_ox (Oct 11, 2004)

Hello all,

I agree with Master Miller, very sound advice there.

Politics are not a bad thing.  They are a way to discuss often touchy matters without blows being thrown - 

When you search out a new Hapkido school, ask about their politics - as long as it stays out of the training, I think that's OK - when it is too heavily mixed in then you may have a problem...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## iron_ox (Oct 11, 2004)

Doc Clean,

Just out of interest, where in the country (world) are you?  Some here might be able to narrow your search...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## ajs1976 (Oct 11, 2004)

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> The best thing you can do as a person starting out in Hapkido is go and visit some dojangs. If you like the Instructor you have made a good start. The only cautions I offer is watch out for those that call themselves Founder, Great Grandmaster or other names that lack humility. There may be a person in your area that is truly a Founder of some art but it is unlikely. Watch out for anyone that just talks about themselves and all they have done! Any true Master or Grandmaster will have a humble but confident demeanor.
> :asian:


Currently, i'm taking TKD and the one steps and grabbing techinques are from Hapkido.

I would like to go to a Hapkido school to check it out, but I have not found one that I would be able to attend regularly.  I have located two in the Pittsburgh area.  One is a Combat hapkido school and the other appears to be a traditional school but both are to far away.  In the near future, I might visit both, just to see live hapkido.

So far my learning about hapkido is what I do in my TKD class, what I have found in the web and the books I have looked through.


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## Disco (Oct 11, 2004)

there are very few Americans with strong lineage to authentic Hapkido anyway. 

Kind of opening the infamous Pandora's Box here, but that's for another thread.

Even though Ji is based here in the U.S., he represents only Sin Moo. Using the KHF as an example, they are shall we say the clearing house for what was 70 kwans but now revamped to 40 kwans. I'm sure the Kido or whatever it's name is now, also umbrellas several kwans also. I'm not disavowing the connection to Korea, they are of course the home school. Having a central home governing body to oversee and protect is only prudent.  

Maybe the issue is not home rule at all but the need to slow down the rank mills - many of which are in Korea - or simply to ignore those organizations that are the cause of so much trouble. 

That statement just reinforces the need for an American Organization. I believe we have enough "strong lineage to authentic Hapkido" people in place, to facilitate a governing board of directors. 

Now granted, this only becomes a player if people want it. The old kwan/school certifications will always be the first step in training acceptance. It just seemed that so many people were enamored with the prospect of a so called "higher authority of acceptance", that it became it's own entity. I don't think that aspect of oversight is going away, so why not enact better controls?


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## iron_ox (Oct 11, 2004)

Hello Disco,

Sorry, didn't want to open the Pandora's Box - my mistake.

But, I wonder how we institute control...the Ji side of Hapkido (if I may call it that) represents 75 -80% of Hapkido we see today.  I would venture a guess that the vast majority of the so - called 40+ kwans of the KHF are Ji originated - the KHF from the older KHA which is Ji Based.  The head of the KHF, Oh Sea Lim is a Ji Student - so I guess Ji could run that side of the fence.

The other side of the coin is the Choi side, many claim it, few are really from it.  Here, there is a solid hierarchy and really no need of further control.

Funny, but I remember the talk of an American goverining body coming up and the funny thing was several people stepped in to start such a group, as long as they were the president - it was really very funny.

Hapkido alas will never be like Shotokan, with a single source and head, like the JKA - but we can do our best to self regulate individuals and organizations that create even further havoc in our midst.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## Disco (Oct 11, 2004)

Kevin, as you pointed out, Ji's people (indirectly) encompass 80%+ of todays Hapkido practicioners. Choi's people as you also stated, control their own with a closer knit interface. I find it perplexing, to say the least, that people in general will ***** and moan about injustice and wrong doings and then allow themselves to become complacent without correcting the situation. Some have opted to find a new organization to align with, while others have just gone their seperate ways, while others fall into the complacent arena. But the problem(s) are still there, awaiting fresh participants to lose their way. 

There are those out there that are asking themselves, "why is this guy so empassioned with this subject"? To answer, I've got no real stake in any of this. I have not been impacted in anyway by what has transpired. What has affected me is seeing my fellow practicioners being cheated, lied too and being asked to sit and take it. I'm just tired of seeing Americans in general in the KMA's, being treated like 3rd class citizens and cash cows. I fully understand that not everbody falls into this category. If they have a good relationship with their Korean Master instructor or organization they embrace, they are fortunate and I envy them. But I think the people affected have a duty to attempt to protect those fresh participants. If they can't resolve the problem(s), then at the very least afford the opportunity to bypass the problem makers.


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## iron_ox (Oct 11, 2004)

Hello Disco,

I tend to agree that individuals that have been wronged should stand up and tell the rest of us.  Likewise, I believe that we can form our own opinions of an organization based on information reported in forums like this one.  I think that my views of a certain Korean organization are well known here.  But to assume that this means we need another "association" to add to the mix I think is unnecessary - what we may need is a real clearing house of information monitored by members of all camps that could disseminate information as it became available...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## glad2bhere (Oct 11, 2004)

Dear Kevin: 

".....I will continue to travel to Korea because it is a benchmark of training and technique of the kind I am looking for - and not readily found here in the states - and frankly, the Koreans I found in Korea so far are quite different than those here in the US - they are willing to share knowledge and experience without predjudice......" 

Sorry to throw you into shock, guy, but I am right there with you and if anyone wants to listen I am more than willing to share why I am agreeing with someone with whom I have the odd philosophical difference on more than one occasion. 

I was absolutely floored at how very different the folks I trained with in Korea were from the folks I trained with in the States. People gave of themselves because they were all together on the same journey and not because of some hidden agenda or as an act of guile. Sure it is true that Koreans are not queuing-up to train in KMA and I suppose there is a kind of sadness I feel about that still. All the same, the folks who DO come to train are all about training and sharing, and supporting and promoting their art. Students respect their seniors and seniors support their juniors. The most senior get some definite perks but I could find no exploitation of this and the care returned by the most elderly practitioners was of almost a "grandfatherly doting" rather than the imperious administrative model I have seen in the States. 

To make the contrast even stronger I must report that I grew increasingly fretful whenever I would check my e-mail while in Korea and read contributions on various Nets here in the States. The whining, nastiness, bickering and mean-spirited-ness stood in such strong contrast to the acceptance and comraderie I was enjoying during my training over there. 

I must say in all possible honesty that I have grown increasingly jaded to finding that sort of experience here in the States and it is worth it to me to wait and save my money for a single two week experience over there than anything I could possibly find here. In the last few years I have given free seminars, traveled at my own expense and freely shared whatever I could with anyone who was interested. The attitudes I have experienced in return, including suspicion, arrogance, ignorance and small-minded-ness, make continuing to bang my head against the wall little more than simple self-abuse. Oh, sure, I'll still make my thoughts known if I think it will help someone out but my money is on "the old country". If people want to play around with "home rule" I say, "go for it".  Everybody needs a hobby.  

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Oct 11, 2004)

I fully understand were Bruce is coming from. But I ask this question.....Why does it have to be the "old country", why can't we have it here. It used to be very similar here in the U.S. many moons ago. Why can't we make the effort to bring it back, the way Bruce and others have experienced it over in Korea? It was here in some fashion once, when the original first Koreans instructors came here. There are many out there that can hardley afford training at home, much less spending money to travel overseas. Everyone is intitled to their opinion, but having a real home governing body, not just a bunch of small groups dealing with their own agendas, I feel would do more good for Hapkido in general than staying the course.


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## Master Todd Miller (Oct 11, 2004)

why can't we have it here. It used to be very similar here in the U.S. many moons ago. Why can't we make the effort to bring it back,

This is exactly what members of the Jungki Kwan have been doing since 1996.  This means getting with a Kwan and training with those qualified to teach.  I have always tried to bring back the feel and atmosphere of the Jungki Kwan at my Dojang and anywhere I go.  Always a long way to go though. :asian: 

Take care

www.millersmudo.com


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## kwanjang (Oct 11, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ... In the last few years I have given free seminars, traveled at my own expense and freely shared whatever I could with anyone who was interested. The attitudes I have experienced in return, including suspicion, arrogance, ignorance and small-minded-ness, make continuing to bang my head against the wall little more than simple self-abuse. Oh, sure, I'll still make my thoughts known if I think it will help someone out but my money is on "the old country". If people want to play around with "home rule" I say, "go for it".  Everybody needs a hobby.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce



Hello Bruce:
Glad to hear you had a good time in Korea; however, you have been there just once I believe.  Hard to make a sound evaluation on that one experience IMHO. I know that that my group (National Korean Martial Arts Association) and Master West's group (the USKMAF) right here in the US have welcomed you with open arms and shared our technique without asking for anything in return.  I am somewhat surprised to see that you look at us a hobbyists after we opened our Dojangs to you.


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## glad2bhere (Oct 12, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

Whoa!!! 

Please don't go there. You have no idea how grateful I am to you and Master West for all of the extraordinary goodwill, guidance, warmth and support you have shared. There is simply no way I could ever return all that you folks have done for me. I think we are running the very real chance of mixing up apples and oranges here. 

Had Mike advocated that people unite under an extant organization (say, Master Wests' USKMAF) or your own NKMAA I could see the logic. Or how about simply advocating identifying one of the other major organizations (IHF, WHF, WHA, KHF)--- I could see that. What I am hearing in Mikes' comment is yet again another attempt to unite people in fraternity who give every indication of interpreting the KMA as the Path of the Lone Wolf. Certainly folks will get together and share a training experience or two. What I am hearing Mike advocate is an on-going membership in an organization which will set policy, certify belts, maintain curricular integrity and so forth and I don't see such a thing happening among these practitioners. 

Let me go one step farther and play the Devils' Advocate for just a moment, Rudy. Why DIDN'T Mike advocate for people to unite under an existing organization of established reputation? Arguably both you AND Master West are identified leaders in the KMA here in the West. Your organizations are established and have an acknowledged track record sustained over time. I submitt that the very reluctance of the people I identified in my previous post to join ANY organization is the very force that would sabotage an attempt to establish an organization along the lines that I hear Mike espousing.  Thoughts? Comments? Anyone? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Oct 12, 2004)

Dear Todd: 

"......This is exactly what members of the Jungki Kwan have been doing since 1996. This means getting with a Kwan and training with those qualified to teach. I have always tried to bring back the feel and atmosphere of the Jungki Kwan at my Dojang and anywhere I go. Always a long way to go though...." 

OK, but lets just take just that single, small part and leave the larger picture go for a moment. Can, for instance, Westerners actually accomodate themselves to the concept of a "kwan"?  Oh, I know, people use the term freely enough when identifying themselves. Just like all the other terms, MA buzzwords and phrases, the term "kwan" turns up over and over again. But do you REALLY think Westerners can support the idea of a voluntary collective bound by no more than fraternity and a unifying belief in accomplishing a particular goal through a specified method? I submit that Westerners are WAY too narcissistic and independence-minded to willfully enter into that sort of inter-dependence. Hell, you can't even get them to find that sort of bonding in the typical inter-personal relationship! Why would one expect them to do it organizationally!?! And I am speaking of just ONE Korean concept among an entire range of cultural concepts. How many Westerners are going to willfully surrender authority to another person let alone merely on the basis of seniority? How many Westerners are going to willfully contribute monies, time and energy---- without thought of return---- to an effort? I'm sure there are SOME folks--- but enough to constitute a full-scale administrative body? I say, look at the track-record. What Mike is advocating depends on an altruism or selflessness that is simply not part and parcel of the Western concept of KMA.  Sorry. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Oct 12, 2004)

What Mike is advocating depends on an altruism or selflessness that is simply not part and parcel of the Western concept of KMA.

You just may be right with your assumption Bruce, but I personally would like to see the attempt made. We may just surprise ourselves. After all, there are many westerners already aligned under some banners (no names needed), who are now swinging in the wind because of problems. What I proposed was a governing board, not just one person. They keep their ranking, or if need be, everybody on the board starts even. Were dealing with, in my opinion, honorable men that have already proven themselves to the general Hapkido world and hold high rankings as it is. The rational for a new organization is to put everyone on a new equal footing without the perceived notion that some portion of the membership might be treated more favorably because we went under an existing banner. Now I must confess here, that any of this is predicated on the willingness of the current leaders of American Hapkido, to even entertain the plausibility of the endeavor.


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## Master Todd Miller (Oct 12, 2004)

It is a learning process.  When we all have new students walk into our dojangs they have to learn the etiqette, structure and techniques of any particular dojang.  Traditional Mudo is not for everyone, this is why you see so many Mcdojangs.  Hard strict training is for a few and this is how it will always be.  IMHO Masters and Mudoin in general need to take to heart one of the most important tenants - Humility.  This would change many of the problems we see in MA today.

Take care

www.millersmudo.com


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## kwanjang (Oct 12, 2004)

Hello Bruce:
Glad to know that I read your post wrong.


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## glad2bhere (Oct 12, 2004)

Dear Mike: 

Yes, and just because I might not interested in the effort doesn't mean that it does not have merit. My two concerns is that it A.) seems as though it is reinventing the wheel for an audience who has a track record of "walking" and B.) that it has expectations for a population of practitioners who have consistently failed to meet the expectations for their positions. 

In light of my last post consider the following. 

Lets suppose that all the organizations to date have somehow missed the boat. I would point out that there have been a broad range of organizations and leaders from the avuncular (thats you, Rudy  ) to the dictatorial (fill-in the name of your choice). These organizations have come and gone over the last 50 years and there is yet to be an organization that has been able to satisfy a range of practitioners.  

Now--- lets talk about that range. 

Putting to one side the folks already under one banner or another from the AHA to the WHRDA. What are the chances that a single organizational effort will be able to reconcile the interests of such disparate individuals as say, myself, Gary Pointer, Hackworth, Pelligrini, Whalen and Rudy? And if such an organization does NOT reconcile these very different positions on the KMA what, may I ask is the point? So, we have a whole range of groups and a whole range of people and still there is not a single group that has been able to pull folks together over the last 50 years. Whatismore there are still more groups organizing and reorganizing and none of them are an improvement over what we have had in the past. 

Now lets talk about what such a group would do. 

a.) I teach for free. All a student has to do is show up and I teach them traditional Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido. Guess what. Sometimes they show and sometimes they don't. Would a group such as this produce any greater or more consistent commitment? 

b.) I pay for all of my own expenses out of my own pocket. That means when I travel somewhere to teach for free it comes out of my own pocket. Insurance, transportation, equiptment, communications, printing and publishing expenses? Would a group address this? 

c.) When I seek to further my own MA education it ALSO comes out of my pocket. Travel to downtown Chicago or to Korea --- it all comes out of my pocket, my time, my effort. Would a group address this? 

d.) Anymore I go to a seminar and I know as much or more about whats being taught than the person giving the presentation. Oh, there is always the odd turn of the pinkie or some exotic new twist on a cane or short stick technique. But after 20 years of Hapkido it gets harder and harder to find legitimate new information. Why do you think I got so excited about my little trip to Korea?  Would a group address this? 

e.) This Spring I made a very big thing about going to have my 4th Dan test validated  by my peers down in Florida. I didn't have to do it but I made a big thing about it because I advocate THAT is the way it needs to be done. The whole thing blew-up in my face. Personally I don't think folks would submitt to being assessed by their peers. Would a group address this? 

f.) Lastly, I think that the folks who could really use such a group are all talk. I think that in fact, were such a group available people who could really use such a group would find reasons not to join up. Its a little like people on the margins of the KMA community being finally invited to come out of the shadows and show what they are about---- it never quite happens. Well, I think that those people who woof the loudest about home rule would never _quite _ get around to joining the new group. 

I really apologize for being so cynical but I have had a real mouthful from the typical home-grown martial artist here in the States. I can tell you from experience that you can drive a truck between genuine martial traditions and its dedicated practitioner and what passes under that banner here in the States. For my money the fact that a certain misguided personality is still pandering his drivel speaks volumes as to what people think of MA here in America. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Oct 12, 2004)

Putting to one side the folks already under one banner or another from the AHA to the WHRDA. What are the chances that a single organizational effort will be able to reconcile the interests of such disparate individuals as say, myself, Gary Pointer, Hackworth, Pelligrini, Whalen and Rudy? And if such an organization does NOT reconcile these very different positions on the KMA what, may I ask is the point? So, we have a whole range of groups and a whole range of people and still there is not a single group that has been able to pull folks together over the last 50 years. Whatismore there are still more groups organizing and reorganizing and none of them are an improvement over what we have had in the past. 

OK, we'll take these questions in order. The old saying that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear comes to mind. The organization in question would not / could not reconcile with some that were mentioned and for very obvious reasons. We (a generalization) are attempting to remove ourselves from that element. As for the ongoing more groups organizing / reorganizing, were still dealing with the mine is better than yours mentality and possibly, repeat, possibly a tad of greed. Allow me to ask this question. An organization for Hapkido with the following board members; West, Rudy, Holcomb (sp?), Hal, Mike, Kevin and some of the west coast people who's names escape me at the moment, would you not consider aligning yourself with these folks?
As for the whole range of groups and people, another phrase comes to mind. The cream rises to the top. An organization that conducts itself with honor and integrity and espouses the values we all seem to aspire to, would surely stand head and shoulders above the rest and draw other's of like mind to seek association. Those people that I mentioned surely have the respect of the general hapkido world, I would think.

produce any greater or more consistent commitment?

No! There's not a group / organization out there that can or should be tasked to do that. That's up to the individual instructor.

b.) I pay for all of my own expenses out of my own pocket. That means when I travel somewhere to teach for free it comes out of my own pocket. Insurance, transportation, equiptment, communications, printing and publishing expenses? Would a group address this? 

You are a unique person and I mean that in a nice way. Me personally, I would never travel on my own dime. If someone wants to conduct a clinic or seminar and they elect to seek your expertise, they should at minimum cover the cost of your transportation and lodging. Now if on the other hand, you are freely trying to expand your art and offering to avail yourself gratis, that's a different venue. I commend you for your integrity in trying to further your art, but that does get expensive. As for would a group address this....I would think that if it was group sponsored, the teaching participants should be accommodated. (c)Those seeking the training always foot their own bill.

d.) Anymore I go to a seminar and I know as much or more about whats being taught than the person giving the presentation. Oh, there is always the odd turn of the pinkie or some exotic new twist on a cane or short stick technique. But after 20 years of Hapkido it gets harder and harder to find legitimate new information. Why do you think I got so excited about my little trip to Korea? Would a group address this? 

Without trying to sound to condescending, that's a tough question to answer. Perhaps answering a question with a question may be appropriate. Did you learn anything new on your trip to Korea? If the answer was no, then what can be expected from teachers here in the U.S. If on the other hand the answer was yes, then you have gained additional knowledge, wish I'm sure you would be more than willing to teach and share. Perhaps the group could address a rotational sabbatical of sorts yearly for someone to go over to Korea and bring back new information, should new information be available.

e.) This Spring I made a very big thing about going to have my 4th Dan test validated by my peers down in Florida. I didn't have to do it but I made a big thing about it because I advocate THAT is the way it needs to be done. The whole thing blew-up in my face. Personally I don't think folks would submitt to being assessed by their peers. Would a group address this? 

Any time anyone tests for rank, which we have all done from white belt on up, we are being assessed by our peers. That is the way it needs to be done, you are correct. That's primarily the main function of the group. If someone does not seek validation and wishes to proceed on their own, that's self adulation. Become whatever rank one wishes. 

f.) Lastly, I think that the folks who could really use such a group are all talk. I think that in fact, were such a group available people who could really use such a group would find reasons not to join up. Its a little like people on the margins of the KMA community being finally invited to come out of the shadows and show what they are about---- it never quite happens. Well, I think that those people who woof the loudest about home rule would never quite get around to joining the new group.

You may very well be correct in your viewpoint. But unless it comes full circle, we'll never know. I'll use myself as an example. I'm not really what one would call a full died in the wool hapkido practicioner. Do I use hapkido techniques? Yes. That's what I was taught in TKD (old school). Do I aspire to fully embrace the full art of hapkido? No.... I consider myself a martial technician more than a martial artist. Semantics I understand, but the true defenders of the art, like yourself, understand the difference. Now all that being said, would I join and support such a group as we are discussing? Most definitely, if they would even have me. At age 60+, I have no desire or physical ability to go flying all over the dojang. So just to be associated with good, honest, dependable people as I referenced, would be more than enough for me. I may not be able to take it anymore, but perhaps even an old dog can still show a trick or two to the young pups.

I really apologize for being so cynical.

No need to apologize for anything. Your willing to stand for your principles as you see them. I'm not that far removed from your perspective. I lost all respect for the Korean Master instructor I trained under and in general, all the Korean envolvement with the arts as a whole. We've all seen what has transpired just within the past year or so. I ran headlong into similar problems many years ago and just removed myself from their direct control. 

For my money the fact that a certain misguided personality is still pandering his drivel speaks volumes as to what people think of MA here in America. FWIW.

No argument there, but this aspect just reinforces (at least to me), the need for honorable accountability and fair represenation for those willing to train and put their trust in other's.

Mike Dunn


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## iron_ox (Oct 13, 2004)

Hello all,

Mike, OK, how do we practically go about starting such a program?  Let us assume the best in everyone - how do we _practically_ start.

Another question, how will we go about closing down places that are not Hapkido...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## kwanjang (Oct 13, 2004)

Greetings all:
When I read through these comments, I can only come to one conclusion... it will never happen.  Why?  I believe that there simply are too many different needs out there, and I for one could not even begin to satisfy them all.  My solution to this is quite simple. I send people of my own group to train with other good martial artists so they can reap the benefits of their knowledge.  Am I afraid that they will leave to join these other groups? No, because I value only those members who can truly learn something from me.  I have no desire to keep a member for whom I can do nothing in return for his or her loyalty to my group. 

In a way, there already IS an unspoken relationship between some of the folks you mentioned.  I for one accept at face value anyone who carries certification from some of the very people you mention.  If someone comes to me with a certificate from someone I know to be an honest and reliable Hapkidoin, I could (and would) not dispute this.  On the other hand, I have nixed people with credentials from some of the biggest orgs out there, and that is simply because I do not know them.  In such cases, I need to see for myself what the applicant is all about.

I believe a good working relationship among the people who run small orgs and are know to be trustworthy is as good as ONE big org that will surely end up with bickering among those in charge.  In this manner, no one will be stifled in their particular pursuit of whatever they need, and the folks who run an org can put their own values to work.

For example.  I personally have no problem certifying a person who is no longer as capable physically than some of the other folks on your venerable list.  Does this mean I am not as strict in my certification, or is it that I perhaps have a bit more compassion for age as I grow older (and see that age and lack of mobility is not the end of the world).  If we stick to one rule of certifying only those who have the skills of a young man, we will most certainly lose out on the expertise gained with wisdom of age.  IMHO, a nice mix of values is not so bad.  Young people (and I have some in my school) who only think with their machismo NEED a place where they can feel at home.  When THEIR bodies grow older, it is nice to know there is a home to go to where other things are appreciated as well.

Having been around long enough to experience this, I have seen some of my students go from being happy with my teaching to having them think they know it all.  Only people who can demonstrate higher kicks or fancier moves turn their crank.  Sure, I realize that they are lacking in humility, but I also know that is the nature of the beast.  I am happy to send them to someone they can continue to believe in.  I KNOW they too will someday get old enough to realize there is more to learn


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## glad2bhere (Oct 13, 2004)

Dear Rudy, Mike, Kevin et al: 

Not to put too fine a point on what Rudy said but I would like to go back to my previous thought. Rather than start another organization why not simply promote in the strongest possible way that people join and support one of the current reputable organizations. I think the advantage would be that there is already an establish administration and curriculum and there is an identified philosophical approach with which to either agree (join) or disagree (or not).  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Oct 13, 2004)

Hello Bruce,

AS infrequetly as this happens, I totally agree with you here.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## greendragon (Oct 13, 2004)

Rudy,
thanks for your insightful comments and hard earned years of experience.  I like to hear your take on these matters because you have been in the game for a long time and I hope I will reach your level of age---eventually-- and still have the unwavering passion and love for Hapkido that you exemplify not only on this forum but on the mat teaching like I witnessed from you in Jackson Miss. last year....you are truly a class act.... Hapki!!
                                               Michael Tomlinson


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## Disco (Oct 13, 2004)

Rudy, Bruce, Kevin thanks for the reply. Perhaps I've put things to far out of proportion. There are as has been pointed out, some good organizations already in place. I've broadened the scope way to far perhaps. The intent was to look to the KHF people to elect to attempt to rectify the problems they were facing. As I stated prior, I have no real stake in this situation. So perhaps I'm sticking my nose where it dosen't belong. For that, please accept my apology. It's just that I get really annoyed when I see people being wronged and the powers that be just think it's no big thing and they'll take care of everything (mabey), somewhere down the road. In reality, I should have been more cognizant of the fact, that the only person even remotely interested was me, an outsider. I'll just check this off to lessons learned.


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## kwanjang (Oct 13, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> Rudy, Bruce, Kevin thanks for the reply. Perhaps I've put things to far out of proportion. There are as has been pointed out, some good organizations already in place. I've broadened the scope way to far perhaps. The intent was to look to the KHF people to elect to attempt to rectify the problems they were facing. As I stated prior, I have no real stake in this situation. So perhaps I'm sticking my nose where it dosen't belong. For that, please accept my apology. It's just that I get really annoyed when I see people being wronged and the powers that be just think it's no big thing and they'll take care of everything (mabey), somewhere down the road. In reality, I should have been more cognizant of the fact, that the only person even remotely interested was me, an outsider. I'll just check this off to lessons learned.



Disco:
I think you served a good purpose in voicing your thoughts.  I appreciate that, because it gave us an opportunity to take a good look at the way things are.  Yes, there are some good organizations; however, I believe any one of them may not entirely fit the needs of individual Hapkidoin. Our individual needs vary even within ourselves as time passes along, and it may serve us best to have some diversity in organizations.  I just hope that we can continue to have great discussions like this one, so we can learn from one another and continue to grow as martial artists.

I have passed some folks whom other leaders might find lacking in certain areas; however, I never do this without careful consideration of the entire package.  IMHO, I have a duty to ensure that more than just physical abilities continue to thrive; yet, I also have a duty to ensure technique continues to be good.  So, I have a weighty problem to take care of each time I certify another student.  Some have the physical abilities down pat, but they lack in maturity to have humility (that often lacks in teenagers of the arts).  Most respected North-American Masters have come to know me, and they trust my judgement (even though they know that I have made mistakes).  I do the same, because I have learned to trust THEIR judgement. 

If I do not promote a hotshot young man who still lacks a bit of humility for example, I may snuff out the youthful flame of enthusiasm.  On the other hand, if I promote someone who, using the same example, never learns humility, I commit a wrong to Hapkido.  Similarly, I have to look carefully at those who lack a bit of physical skill but can contribute a great deal to our art in other ways.  It is not an easy thing, and I am glad that there are several orgs who can offset human errors somewhat.  For me it suffices that we all try our best to promote the art we love in the best way we can, and discussions such as this help me along.

Thanks all for the kind comments. :asian:


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## iron_ox (Oct 13, 2004)

Hello Disco,

Its interesting that you wanted the focus of this to be back at the KHF.  The KHF is self-contained, and represents only a very small fraction of Hapkido in the USA.  Frankly, other than to inform people that the KHF is not the end all and be all of Hapkido, I think that the organization actions of the last year prove that they are really quite insignificant.  I will reiterate that there may be some good people stuck in this mire, but it is not an organization that seems to be interested in the growth of Hapkido outside of its corporate offices...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## glad2bhere (Oct 13, 2004)

Dear Mike and Kevin: 

Seems that the KHF might be a good measure for what one might NOT want in an organization. It sounds weird to say but sometimes when we can point at some and say, "well thats what I DON'T want" it can be as valuable as finding something and saying "THATS what I want".  I mention this because as much as I believe folks need to support sound existing organizations, it is likewise important not to forget those traits that got "us" into trouble before. Kevin mentioned a couple in his post. Pre-occupation with standing and rank, revenues, corporate propagation and networking as well as the time honored matter of "grandfathering" folks into various ranks and positions are some pretty important things to keep in mind. Is it possible to have a cohesive organization and give these corporate behaviors up? Got me! 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Oct 14, 2004)

Pre-occupation with standing and rank, revenues, corporate propagation and networking as well as the time honored matter of "grandfathering" folks into various ranks and positions are some pretty important things to keep in mind. Is it possible to have a cohesive organization and give these corporate behaviors up? Got me! 

Bruce, this is part and parcel of what's transpiring in many organizations being run by the Koreans. Didn't Kevin state that Korea in general was a belt mill? We, meaning westeners, didn't start the process, we subjugated ourselves to the original teachers and now their next generation. Lets look at testing fee's. On your trip to Korea, were you able obtain any information in regards to the fee's there as opposed to fee's being charged here? Standing and rank has always been a burr in my saddle. I've seen far to many airport promotions and blatant favoritism flaunted by the Koreans.  
Is it possible to have a cohesive organization and give these corporate behaviors up? Well, we'll never know unless it's tried.......

On another note, were you exposed to anything new there? I asked before, but it kind of got lost in the shuffle.

Respectfully
Mike


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## glad2bhere (Oct 14, 2004)

Dear Mike: 

"......Bruce, this is part and parcel of what's transpiring in many 
organizations being run by the Koreans. Didn't Kevin state that Korea in general 
was a belt mill? We, meaning westeners, didn't start the process, we 
subjugated ourselves to the original teachers and now their next 
generation. Lets look at testing fee's. On your trip to Korea, were you able 
obtain any information in regards to the fee's there as opposed to fee's 
being charged here? Standing and rank has always been a burr in my 
saddle. I've seen far to many airport promotions and blatant favoritism 
flaunted by the Koreans.  
Is it possible to have a cohesive organization and give these corporate 
behaviors up? Well, we'll never know unless it's tried......."

Theres a lot of places to grab your post so I will try to keep this suscinct. 

Kevin and I don't always agree on our views and my hope is that is a healthy thing that will benefit the Hapkido community in the long run. Contrary to what people say I don't actually think that everyone wants everybody singing the same tune. That said, let me say that I didn't experience much in the way of comparitive fees. I paid about $300US for my training. The rate is $300/mo or any part of a month. This is what Dojunim Kim charges Korean nationals who come to train with him so its become a kind of across-the-board fee. I suppose if you do the math--- a max of 6hrs per day or a total of 32 mat hours (what I had) then it seems a little more reasonable. Had I stayed for a full three weeks of training (about 96 mat hours) well, you get the picture. All the same, I just don't think money is an issue though. As I said before I teach for free and then there are nutcases who charge astronomical prices for truly crap instruction. People come or not come based solely on their priorities. 

Nor do I think the other issues necessarily follow. The Koreans didn't start the idea of standing and rank, the Japanese did. And I can probably find as many Westerners who have screwed-around with their rank or standing as much as the foreigners. Fact is that from all I can tell the Koreans who come to this country to make a name for themselves were just average in the old country. They came to the States because the language barrier kept people from checking their vitae or resumes'. All I see "meet the new boss; same as the old boss". 

Finally, what about the idea of supporting existing organizations? If we can't even get people to line-up behind known organizations with leadership that has a track record how are we suppose to get folks to rally around some new self-established cadre? 

As far as the matter of experiencing new things,  I think its better to say that I experienced a new way of looking at old things. There were a lot of questions in my mind when I went to Korea. A great deal of them have been answered and pleasantly so. I have alos had my appetite wetted for the next time I visit as there is already a list of things I want to ask about then. Does this help? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Oct 14, 2004)

Bruce, thanks for the reply. Glad you were able to clarify some things for yourself on your trip.

Finally, what about the idea of supporting existing organizations? If we can't even get people to line-up behind known organizations with leadership that has a track record how are we suppose to get folks to rally around some new self-established cadre?

As for existing orgs, with the exception of West's and Rudy's, which I think are open to all KMA's, the Hapkido orgs of standing are all Korean run. So in essence, it's as you put it "meet the new boss; same as the old boss". I realize by now, that everybody can plainly see that I have a deep rooted distain, for the way business is conducted, here in the U.S. by the Koreans in general. Perhaps I'm way to much of an idealist or better yet a dreamer. I remember how it used to be and long for a return. I just think that a new hapkido org, run with old school values, would be wanted/needed in this day and age of what the meaning of "is" is.

Mike


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## iron_ox (Oct 14, 2004)

Hello all,

Bruce, too true, we don't always agree - but I think we disagree with a smile - and with open discussion for the betterment of the community in general.

Disco,  I may have misspoke when I said "Koreans, or Korea" were a belt mill, should have said there are ORGAINZATIONS that are belt mills.  But I think much of this is driven by a two way street - first, and foremost is the obsession of many westerners for rank.  They travel abroad and as I have heard (and often seen here in the states) will BEG for rank, claiming the rank is the only thing that will keep them in business - and poof! another super-duper dan is born.  

Secondly, many organizations looking to increase influence abroad give out rank to say they have foreign students - sometimes without even seeing them...

In my opinion, we have belittled rank in the US to be almost meaningless - that is why lineage is so important - the belt may mean nothing, but the strength of lineage can bolster any claim of position.

As far as commercialism, well, you've got to keep the doors open, and money makes the world go around, so caveat emptor - when the price ain't right, bark up another tree.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## Disco (Oct 14, 2004)

Kevin, got to agree with you to a point on the western rank situation. But not to belabor the point, suffice to say it's a double edged blade. 

On another note, I think Master Whalen is at a seminar this weekend in the Chicago area. By any chance are you planning to attend?


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## iron_ox (Oct 14, 2004)

Hello Disco,

Unfortunately, my own teaching responsibilities run right through the weekend, so I will not be able to make it up for the seminar. Still playing catch up from my own Korean trip.  

I understand that the seminar is at a dojang located on Great Lakes Naval Base, (north of the city proper) should be fun for those who can attend.

I am setting up Black Belt training on a monthly basis for any and all black belts to come and train with us here in the windy city.  More as the schedule shakes out.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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