# Alan Orr on "4 Zones"



## geezer (Jul 29, 2017)

I just saw this clip by Alan Orr and found it interesting. Over the years there's been a lot of stuff put out there about fighting ranges or zones. This is a little different. One thing, it focuses on momentum and handling movement more than technique.

Another thing I note is how Alan views the normal "Chi-sau" range, especially what we call in my school "long-bridge" Chi-Sau to be the most dangerous place to hang out. ...Essentially _a place to get out of ASAP._

Check it out:


----------



## wckf92 (Jul 29, 2017)

...must be the latest stuff he gets through his connection with Hendrik(?)


----------



## KPM (Jul 29, 2017)

Not that different from prior classifications.   Zone 1 = kicking/punching range,  Zone 2 = standing grappling range,  Zone 3 = extension of standing grappling to a "throwing range",  and Zone 4 = ground fighting range.  It still seemed to be defined as much by what techniques come into play as it was by "momentum handling" to me.

And it seemed to me that his zone classification skipped "Chi Sau range" completely!  Zone 1 is further out than one can do Chi Sau comfortably and Zone 2 was closer than one can do Chi Sau comfortably....at least the way he was demo'ing  them.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 29, 2017)

Yeah. I have always found ranges a tough sell. And not really necessary. Rather than fundamentally explaining what to do from where you are.


----------



## geezer (Jul 29, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> ...must be the latest stuff he gets through his connection with Hendrik(?)



I never did "_get"_ that connection ...that is the link between one of the most pragmatic and forward looking WC/MMA coaches out there and that other guy who seemed lost in the mists of a fantasy wuxia history, and who in his dozens of videos, never demonstrates _any_ practical fighting applications.


----------



## wckf92 (Jul 29, 2017)

geezer said:


> I never did "_get"_ that connection ...that is the link between one of the most pragmatic and forward looking WC/MMA coaches out there and that other guy who seemed lost in the mists of a fantasy wuxia history, and who in his dozens of videos, never demonstrates _any_ practical fighting applications.



It's easy...his instructor is Robert chu, chu and HS are BFF's from way back. 
As HS has psychic visions of "ancient" WC, he relays it to chu who then happens to write about it various articles of the WCI magazine.


----------



## geezer (Jul 29, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> It's easy...his instructor is Robert chu, chu and HS are BFF's from way back.
> As HS has psychic visions of "ancient" WC, he relays it to chu who then happens to write about it various articles of the WCI magazine.



Well, when you train fighters that genuinely kick butt, I guess you can be forgiven having a few ...er ...crackpot beliefs.


----------



## Marnetmar (Jul 29, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> It's easy...his instructor is Robert chu, chu and HS are BFF's from way back.
> As HS has psychic visions of "ancient" WC, he relays it to chu who then happens to write about it various articles of the WCI magazine.



You know what? I'm tired of remaining polite on this, I'm starting to get really pissed off.

WHY DOES THIS ALWAYS HAPPEN, IN EVERY THREAD, WITHOUT FAIL

ONCE AGAIN, WE HAD AN INTERESTING THREAD THAT HAD THE POTENTIAL FOR AN INFORMATIVE, INSIGHTFUL DISCUSSION, BUT ONE OF YOU IMBECILES HAD TO COME IN AND SCREW IT ALL UP. NOW, BECAUSE OF YOU, THE ENTIRE REST OF THE THREAD IS GOING TO BE A MUD SLINGING FEST THAT GOES ON FOR SEVERAL PAGES BEFORE THE MODS COME IN, LOCK THE THREAD AND GIVE EVERYONE WARNINGS BECAUSE YOU HAD TO GET YOUR CUTE LITTLE JAB AT A CONTROVERSIAL TEACHER IN.

HOW MUCH BANS, WARNINGS AND RIDICULE FROM THE REST OF THE MARTIAL ARTS COMMUNITY DO YOU MORONS NEED TO FINALLY GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS TO STOP WITH THIS BULL**** CHARACTER ASSASSINATION AND PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE JABS AT ONE ANOTHER?

IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT WING CHUN TRAINING THAT SUDDENLY RIDS EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO TAKES UP THE ART OF ANY AND ALL SELF AWARENESS?

STOP THIS NONSENSE.

*STOP.

THIS.

NONSENSE.

PLEASE.*


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 29, 2017)

geezer said:


> I just saw this clip by Alan Orr and found it interesting. Over the years there's been a lot of stuff put out there about fighting ranges or zones. This is a little different. One thing, it focuses on momentum and handling movement more than technique.
> 
> Another thing I note is how Alan views the normal "Chi-sau" range, especially what we call in my school "long-bridge" Chi-Sau to be the most dangerous place to hang out. ...Essentially _a place to get out of ASAP._
> 
> Check it out:


seems like a straight forward concept discussion.


----------



## geezer (Jul 29, 2017)

Marnetmar said:


> You know what? I'm tired of remaining polite on this, I'm starting to get really pissed off.
> WHY DOES THIS ALWAYS HAPPEN, IN EVERY THREAD, WITHOUT FAIL



_Boy_, somebody is a grumpy gus today. 

I'm genuinely interested in Alan Orr's contributions. As for HS ...well not so much, but apparently, Robert Chu found his ideas worth something, and passed those on to Alan, so I'm open minded about that. But I'm also open to people kidding around a little. Then all of a sudden here comes ol' _Marnetar_ posting all in capitol letters like somebody's disrespecting Jesus, Joseph, and Mary, _and _the Prophet, blessed be he. And then kicked Buddha down the stairs. 

Holy moly, _Marnetmar_, what gives?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2017)

geezer said:


>


I like his clip. He has shown:

- left arm pulling,
- right arm under hook,
- right leg spring,
- right leg break.

It shows that the throwing art can be quite easy to be integrated into WC.


----------



## anerlich (Jul 30, 2017)

It's not unreasonable to flag and wonder at the connection between Alan Orr and Hendrik Santo, especially when the latter is promoting his own videos on the exact same subject on another forum (Facebook Wing Chun News Group), one from which he has not yet been banned for spamming or insults. Several of the longer term posters here have ample reason to be sceptical after earlier acrimonious run-ins with Hendrik.

I think this video is pretty good, though not necessarily truly original (but what is?). With the Hendrik connection I was expecting some weird-*** sh*t, but this makes sense.

There isn't a huge amount of difference between this and JKD concepts' four ranges, or between it and John Danaher's three phases of Combat (free movement, standing clinch, ground) or Matt Thornton's (standup, clinch, ground).

Alan IMO is tailoring those approaches for Wing Chun practitioners who know little of the clinch or ground. It could be argued there is little actual Wing Chun in the clip, and perhaps shows how difficult it can be to employ "as-is" in many stages of an actual fight. Though in an actual fight, everything is difficult.

Interesting to hear him say he avoids chi sao range, but he is right in saying this where you have the most chance of being struck (other than on the ground in a stockade, gift wrap or similar control, where the chances of being struck are close to 100%). The place where you spend most of your training time is the place most risky in a fight. Who knew?

Effective clinching can certainly cause major problems to a striker unused to dealing with it. There are many ways to place you head and body in a clinch so it can't be effectively struck with power.


----------



## anerlich (Jul 30, 2017)

geezer said:


> Well, when you train fighters that genuinely kick butt, I guess you can be forgiven having a few ...er ...crackpot beliefs.


I don't see anything crackpot about this video. I get where you are coming from, though.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 30, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like his clip. He has shown:
> 
> - left arm pulling,
> - right arm under hook,
> ...



I am astounded at least underhooking and overbooking wasn't already there.


----------



## geezer (Jul 30, 2017)

anerlich said:


> I don't see anything crackpot about this video. I get where you are coming from, though.



--Me neither. That's why I posted it. 

The "crackpot" comment was merely a light-hearted response to WCKF92's comments about "HS" and his connection to CSL Wing Chun, which Is Alan Orr's WC lineage.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I am astounded at least underhooking and overbooking wasn't already there.


If we use the 3 gates concept:

1. wrist gate,
2. elbow gate,
3. shoulder gate,

most WC guys deal with the wrist gate and elbow gate. Skills such as

- under hook,
- over hook,
- head lock,
- bear hug,
- waist surround,

are considered as the 3rd gate skill. Unless you are a wrestler, you may not move in that close.


----------



## Eric_H (Jul 31, 2017)

Isn't this basically the same as Krav Maga's 4 ranges?

4 Fighting Ranges - Krav Maga Ft Lauderdale


----------



## anerlich (Jul 31, 2017)

Eric_H said:


> Isn't this basically the same as Krav Maga's 4 ranges?
> 
> 4 Fighting Ranges - Krav Maga Ft Lauderdale



Yeah, though Alan doesn't have a separate kicking range, and overlaps trapping and standing grappling, and these guys overlap standing grappling and ground.

The concepts he presents are not new or unique to anyone who has practised both standing and grappling arts for a while. Which is not meant to be a criticism of the content of Alan's video.


----------



## DanT (Aug 3, 2017)

In certain arts that I have studied, momentum handling refers more to being able to side step and incoming attack (spiralling around the opponent), or absorbing the power of an attack if you get hit, as well as dissolving the incoming momentum of the opponents centre of gravity. For the most part momentum handling is an advanced cotton body / soft frame skill that most people won't be able to achieve unless they really put in the effort.


----------



## karatejj (Aug 3, 2017)

DanT said:


> In certain arts that I have studied, momentum handling refers more to being able to side step and incoming attack (spiralling around the opponent), or absorbing the power of an attack if you get hit, as well as dissolving the incoming momentum of the opponents centre of gravity. For the most part momentum handling is an advanced cotton body / soft frame skill that most people won't be able to achieve unless they really put in the effort.



Uh, whut? I know I'm dumb but this really makes me feel it.

You know why all people stop posting here dude? It like a ghost town!


----------



## drop bear (Aug 3, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Uh, whut? I know I'm dumb but this really makes me feel it.
> 
> You know why all people stop posting here dude? It like a ghost town!



In simple terms.

Fighting good is hard.


----------



## geezer (Aug 3, 2017)

karatejj said:


> You know* why all people stop posting *here dude? It like a ghost town!



Dunno about the others. I just got off vacation and am back at work!


----------



## geezer (Aug 3, 2017)

DanT said:


> In certain arts that I have studied, momentum handling refers more to being able to side step and incoming attack (spiralling around the opponent), or absorbing the power of an attack if you get hit, as well as dissolving the incoming momentum of the opponents centre of gravity. For the most part momentum handling is an advanced cotton body / soft frame skill that most people won't be able to achieve unless they really put in the effort.



I agree that it takes a lot of work, but I don't think it's anything esoteric. Top tier guys, especially in grappling arts, all find ways to "handle" or exploit their opponent's momentum.


----------



## geezer (Aug 4, 2017)

OK, back at work. Just stupid-**** meetings today. So why am I posting when I'm at work? Maybe because what they've got us doing today seems pointless and boring?

http://static2.businessinsider.com/...esents-his-10-favorite-comics-of-all-time.jpg


----------



## Bino TWT (Aug 5, 2017)

Not really a fan of HS (we had some pretty heated discussions and when I proved him wrong with his own words, he blocked me on FB). Alan and I don't always agree either, but we are very respectful when we communicate. We have the understanding that we do things a bit different at times, and we make it work. Neither is right or wrong. And his fighters accomplishments speak for themselves.


----------

