# Lone wing chun practitioners need help!!!



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Hi , I've been practicing wing chun with a practice partner for about eight months now and i've been doing all the research about the forms and various concepts online though i may not be as experienced as you guys i have a pretty clear idea of the forms and am always trying to learn new things... my question to you is, is it practical to learn by yourself without an instructor ... though i teach everything to my practice partner so it helps me understand the concepts well and simplify them. so that we both have fun while practicing ... my main motivation for taking up wing chun was to rebuild a tattered relationship over time that was accomplished and soon i fell in love with wing chun and everything it entails and now i cant get enough of it. i've got sil lim tao and chum kiu down and i am wondering whether we should move on to the wooden dummy next or whether we should do some other form. I am also considering moving to china for a year or two to learn wing chun if i dont find a good instructor here soon.


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## yak sao

Let us know where you're located....someone may be able to steer you to a teacher.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

well i am located in pakistan , the trend here as far as martial arts is concerned is more on the MMA side of things which i positively dislike. I recently had the pleasure of meeting a chinese man who recognised somehow that i had been practicing wing chun though he didnt know much else about the subject he had the courtesy to point me to a school in china where i would be taught well ... someone on martial talk by the name of bully also reccomended another school based in china which is actually a neighbouring country but that is the long term plan for which i have to save up and then plan and sadly im stuck here for atleast six month and i hate stagnation.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

other than that my efforts at finding a good wc instructior here locally have been futile.
EDIT:what i  would really like to know from some of the practitioners whether it is feasible to jump to the mook after completing chum kiu concepts.


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## Domino

Just trying to help.

http://www.pakhunggarkungfu.page.tl/

Also some details I found. 
The last update to this website was February 2010 but
zahir hussain sarwari teaching and promoting hung gar wing chun kung fu.
alabdar road
balochistan

Again dont know how old this information is, but worth checking out.

http://www.martialdirect.com/directory/international/pakistan/shahbaz.php


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## tenzen

Teaching something you don't know is a bad idea all around. You can not learn wing chun from the internet no matter how much you think you know. There are suttle details and intricacies that you will miss completely. You should stop what you are doing right now and wait to find a qualified instructor. All you are doing now is forming bad habits that your sifu will have to work extremely hard to help you break. Your enthusiasm for the art is a good thing but wait to find an instructor and definately don't teach someone something you learned from the internet.


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## mook jong man

Your kidding yourself mate , your going to have about as much of a foundation as that of a house of cards.
You cannot learn without a qualified "hands on instructor".
Don't worry about Chum Kiu , and don't even think about the dummy .

In fact don't even try to practice the Sil Lum Tao form , you are just going to make it harder for yourself when you do eventually learn properly , because your going to have more bad habits than a dogs got fleas.

My suggestion to you until your situation changes is to try and practice your stance the best you can and maybe do some chain punching , thats about it .
That way you might be able to limit the damage you are doing by not being under direct expert supervision.


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## tenzen

Can't agree with you more mook.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Domino said:


> Just trying to help.
> 
> http://www.pakhunggarkungfu.page.tl/
> 
> Also some details I found.
> The last update to this website was February 2010 but
> zahir hussain sarwari teaching and promoting hung gar wing chun kung fu.
> alabdar road
> balochistan
> 
> Again dont know how old this information is, but worth checking out.
> 
> http://www.martialdirect.com/directory/international/pakistan/shahbaz.php




i've called and talked to both places one is about 800 km from where i live and the other is shut down :S



...i dont mind criticism but constructive criticism is appreciated .... as far as learning is concerned i actually have a friend who is learning from someone in england look at the stuff i do in detail and he can somewhat tell what mistakes i make and then i try to change those.

I find sil lim tao in itself simple enough ... also chum kiu i have been slowly pracxticing and elarning to make sure i dont miss any details ... i'm gonna upload a sill lim tao and chum kiu video of mine here. and you guys are welcome to comment. if you like


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

tenzen said:


> Teaching something you don't know is a bad idea all around. You can not learn wing chun from the internet no matter how much you think you know. There are suttle details and intricacies that you will miss completely. You should stop what you are doing right now and wait to find a qualified instructor. All you are doing now is forming bad habits that your sifu will have to work extremely hard to help you break. Your enthusiasm for the art is a good thing but wait to find an instructor and definately don't teach someone something you learned from the internet.



i totally get your thought process and where you're coming from but its quite a rigorous process of analysis that i put the form through before i learn and then try to teach is ... videos forums and wing chun sites are my main source of information.


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## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> i've called and talked to both places one is about 800 km from where i live and the other is shut down :S
> 
> 
> 
> ...i dont mind criticism but constructive criticism is appreciated .... as far as learning is concerned i actually have a friend who is learning from someone in england look at the stuff i do in detail and he can somewhat tell what mistakes i make and then i try to change those.
> 
> *I find sil lim tao in itself simple enough ... also chum kiu *i have been slowly pracxticing and elarning to make sure i dont miss any details ... i'm gonna upload a sill lim tao and chum kiu video of mine here. and you guys are welcome to comment. if you like



That's your first mistake right there mate , they are not simple , get that out of your head right now .

I've been at this gig for a few decades and I'm still perfecting my forms.
You might be mimicking the movements but you have no idea of the mental process and muscular action that is required.
For instance I could stand right in front of you and show you an application , one way would be wrong and the other way would be right.

To you they would both look the same it wouldn't be until you felt it that you would be able to detect a difference , that is the minute level of subtle muscle control that we are talking about here.
It cannot be seen only felt.

I don't mean to be harsh , but people come on here regularly saying there learning Wing Chun online and it's really starting to get on my ****.
If it keeps going this way all of us  flesh and blood instructors will be out of a job , and there will just be 'virtual' online instructors.
Next we'll have people learning Wing Chun on the bloody Nintendo Wii.


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> i totally get your thought process and where you're coming from but its quite a rigorous process of analysis that i put the form through before i learn and then try to teach is ... videos forums and wing chun sites are my main source of information.


 
Here we go again, this is just unbelieveable.  And no you don't get our thought process, otherwise, you would not attempt to train or practice on your own.  And just because it's on video or the internet doesn't make it correct (from this lineage to that) or useful.

Haris Lamboo Faisal, there are pages and pages of replies and threads talking about the good and bad of learning on your own.  Mostly bad.  Yes, you may perform a rigorous analysis on forms and hand positions and such, but it doesn't mean a thing.  Because you don't know for sure if what you're doing is right or wrong, or in between.  You wouldn't go watch a brain surgeon perform surgery, and then the next week try it on your own, would you?  Well, what you are doing is akin to doing just that.  This system is a very intricate and has complex sets of hand positions, principles, theories, and concepts.  And can't be done just any old way.  But once learned, it is very simple.  Without a qualified sifu to GUIDE you, you and your partner are just blowing smoke up each others ***, wasting your time.  Do it right or don't do it at all because it's not helping you one bit without guidance.

Now, I'm not going to say anything more in this thread.  Everyone here (long time members) knows how I feel about this topic.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> That's your first mistake right there mate , they are not simple , get that out of your head right now .
> 
> I've been at this gig for a few decades and I'm still perfecting my forms.
> You might be mimicking the movements but you have no idea of the mental process and muscular action that is required.
> For instance I could stand right in front of you and show you an application , one way would be wrong and the other way would be right.
> 
> To you they would both look the same it wouldn't be until you felt it that you would be able to detect a difference , that is the minute level of subtle muscle control that we are talking about here.
> It cannot be seen only felt.
> 
> I don't mean to be harsh , but people come on here regularly saying there learning Wing Chun online and it's really starting to get on my ****.
> If it keeps going this way all of us  flesh and blood instructors will be out of a job , and there will just be 'virtual' online instructors.
> Next we'll have people learning Wing Chun on the bloody Nintendo Wii.



Okay first of all i live in a place where people dont know squat about wing chun though it originated in the country above us geographically...I am not an instructor in any way nor do i claim to be ... i am merely learning through the means i have available to me currently as i am passionate about wing chun ... your point about how i could be building bad habits that will take a qualified instructor lots of hard work to fix has been duly noted and i am thankful for that. *I DONOT THINK THAT LEARNING ONLINE IS A VERY GOOD WAY OF LEARNING , that we are in agreement with.* The thing is i would gladly learn from an instructor in real life was such a method so readily available to me as it is to you. But the lack of one really leaves me with no choice but to theorise as best i can and then learn the concepts as best i can.

EDIT: I am also intent on travelling 3560 km to the nearest certified wing chun school and learning WC there but in the meanwhile...


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## Nabakatsu

I know there schools kinda around there, I'd check out around for EBMAS, somewhere out there.


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## tenzen

Even if you are shown a few things from some guy who learns in england he is not an instructor. Now at a lot of wc schools you will spend a lot of time learning from senior students buut they are guided by the instructor as they are learning to pass on the system themselves. Wait until you find a qualified instructor and train with him or her in person and no other way. Not books not videos but real physical instruction.


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> . . . . . But the lack of one really leaves me with no choice but to theorise as best i can and then learn the concepts as best i can....


 
Yes, you do have a choice, wait until you find someone qualified to teach you.  Don't theorise, cause you'll most likely do it wrong.  There are a million things in this life we can have and a million things we can't.  Just because we want it doesn't mean we should get.  Especially by any means possible.  If you really want it that bad, you'll find a way to get it the right way.  *THAT* will make it so much more cherished and appreciated.  

The problem with our society now a days, is if we want something, we think we are entitled to it, right now, no matter what.  And in this instance, right now, no matter what is not good for you! ! !



Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> . . . . EDIT: I am also intent on travelling 3560 km to the nearest certified wing chun school and learning WC there but in the meanwhile...


 
Then travel the 3,560 km to get honest to goodness proper Wing Chun training.  The meantime can wait because it's only bad for you.


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## chain punch

Boys give this guy a break.  He is passionate and wants to learn.  Stop with all this elitist talk about the complexity of wing chun, analogies brain surgery seem rather tenuous at best.  I do not think he wants to learn online.  He wants guidance not preaching.  Help not criticism.  Instead of telling him what he should not do, this forum should be a place of nurturing.  

I agree with most of you that wing chun is hard and challenging and real progress and learning only occurs with quality partners and instructors.

Why don't we recommend him some punching and footwork videos and set him a target of 100,000 punches with each arm in a 3 month period?  Forget the forms.  I am going to put my neck on the block and say do you really need them to be good ay wing chun.  I say no.  What are the basics that he needs to learn so that when he does get a teacher he won't feel too daft.

So how about quality punching with balance and basic footwork? 

Paul


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## tenzen

Ok here's some help and probably the best u will get for the time being. After this post let this thread die because we have done it to death numerous times and no matter what u need the guidance of a qualified instructor.
http://www.wingchuninteractive.com/site.html


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## profesormental

Greetings.

It might be fun to help the guy out collectively. Interesting experiment if you ask me.

It is hard to judge before seeing the guy in action. If he has good kinesthetic-visual connection he could learn a lot from us + videos + etc.

Immediate feedback from a qualified teacher is best. Not so immediate feedback from a bunch of high level peoples in the forums should be good enough until the time comes when he could get a qualified teacher for feedback. It could lead to interesting discussions, and it is certainly better to his chances of defending himself successfully. (several of my beginner level students have gotten in many street/self defense altercations, all victorious!! I'm so proud!!).

If not, I can help as much as possibler through this medium if needed. I think it will be fun! Or a disaster!  Yet we will know the truth only by experimenting and giving a chance to explore something to see where it leads. The Internets is fun!! Skype and such technologies is fun! Let's see what we can do with it! 

Your call, Mr. Haris Lamboo Faisal.

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado


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## zepedawingchun

profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> It might be fun to help the guy out collectively. Interesting experiment if you ask me.
> 
> It is hard to judge before seeing the guy in action. If he has good kinesthetic-visual connection he could learn a lot from us + videos + etc.
> 
> Immediate feedback from a qualified teacher is best. Not so immediate feedback from a bunch of high level peoples in the forums should be good enough until the time comes when he could get a qualified teacher for feedback. It could lead to interesting discussions, and it is certainly better to his chances of defending himself successfully. (several of my beginner level students have gotten in many street/self defense altercations, all victorious!! I'm so proud!!).
> 
> If not, I can help as much as possibler through this medium if needed. I think it will be fun! Or a disaster!  Yet we will know the truth only by experimenting and giving a chance to explore something to see where it leads. The Internets is fun!! Skype and such technologies is fun! Let's see what we can do with it!
> 
> Your call, Mr. Haris Lamboo Faisal.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Juan Mercado


 
Bad idea.  In my honest opinion, it would do more harm than good.  Plus, you're dealing with someone's life without the ability to see and make positive corrections to everything he may do.  I for one, would not want to risk it.  It may satisfy his desire to learn right now, but in the long run, when he actually finds someone qualified to teach him, he will have all sorts of problems attempting to correct or fix what is wrong with what he has learned.  Better not to do anything and wait than to train something that is incorrect and useless.


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## zepedawingchun

I have to say, you all know how much I am against people learning or training Wing Chun on their own or by way of the internet, DVDs, videos, etc, rather than finding a qualified instructor.  It truly is the worst way to learn.  I know sometimes its not possible to find a qualified Sifu.  But learning WC without guidance is bad for the people involved and bad for the reputation of our art and our own reputations (teachers of WC).  Its like anything else in life, if what you want to learn, such as a skill or trade, and there is no school in your area to learn, you go find a school that offers teaching for that skill or trade.  If you live in a small town, and you want to become a qualified auto mechanic, and there is no tech or trade school where you live, you either move or commute to the nearest town that has a tech school that offers this skill.  Learning Wing Chun is no different. 

I may sound very hard and uncaring when it come to this topic, but I only have peoples or persons best interests in mind.  And if you too, really care about people, and helping people in their learning Wing Chun, and learning correctly, and maybe one day passing this great art down to another generation, you would never suggest to someone to learn on their own or anyway you can, just for the sake of them saying theyre learning Wing Chun.  As I said earlier, just because we *want* to do something doesnt mean we get to *do* that something.  Life is full of have and have nots.  And in this instance, learning Wing Chun, without a qualified Sifus guidance, through self teaching, online videos and DVD, is *not really having *it at all.


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## chain punch

zepedawingchun said:


> I have to say, you all know how much I am against people learning or training Wing Chun on their own or by way of the internet, DVDs, videos, etc, rather than finding a qualified instructor.  It truly is the worst way to learn.  I know sometimes its not possible to find a qualified Sifu.  But learning WC without guidance is bad for the people involved and bad for the reputation of our art and our own reputations (teachers of WC).  Its like anything else in life, if what you want to learn, such as a skill or trade, and there is no school in your area to learn, you go find a school that offers teaching for that skill or trade.  If you live in a small town, and you want to become a qualified auto mechanic, and there is no tech or trade school where you live, you either move or commute to the nearest town that has a tech school that offers this skill.  Learning Wing Chun is no different.
> 
> I may sound very hard and uncaring when it come to this topic, but I only have peoples or persons best interests in mind.  And if you too, really care about people, and helping people in their learning Wing Chun, and learning correctly, and maybe one day passing this great art down to another generation, you would never suggest to someone to learn on their own or anyway you can, just for the sake of them saying theyre learning Wing Chun.  As I said earlier, just because we *want* to do something doesnt mean we get to *do* that something.  Life is full of have and have nots.  And in this instance, learning Wing Chun, without a qualified Sifus guidance, through self teaching, online videos and DVD, is *not really having *it at all.



I think it is a good idea.  We are not messing with his life.  That statement is an exaggeration.  Was it not Yang Lu Chan who leant taichi by initially spying on a master?  

Z, worry not about reputations, they are not important.  Who cares what others think of wing chun?  No one owns wing chun so why the need to feel so possessive?  It was here before us and will most certainly be here once we are gone.  I don't think there is a worst way to learn but a worst way to be instructed might be a more suitable way to think about it.

With reference to the auto mechanic, how people love engines fix them without any formal training?  Loads.  He does not to do it as a job but for himself.

As I said, no one owns wing chun and there should be no knowledge filter.  Just because in the olden days the instruction was slow in terms of what you got does not mean that is the best way to teach.  My belief is that this model is down right ridiculous.  And just because someone has reached a certain level in any martial arts does not equate to teaching ability.


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## mook jong man

The problem is that fixing an engine probably won't get you killed , the thing will just fail to start or run badly.

If this guy learns Wing Chun in a half-arsed way , he will more than likely develop a false sense of confidence in his own ability as many new students tend to do.

This will lead him to get into fights at the drop of a hat to test out his new found abilities and the result will be that he will most likely get his head caved in.


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## chain punch

mook jong man said:


> The problem is that fixing an engine probably won't get you killed , the thing will just fail to start or run badly.
> 
> If this guy learns Wing Chun in a half-arsed way , he will more than likely develop a false sense of confidence in his own ability as many new students tend to do.
> 
> This will lead him to get into fights at the drop of a hat to test out his new found abilities and the result will be that he will most likely get his head caved in.



And if he did that he would deserve the beating he would receive.  As would any of us going out on to the streets to test our skills.  Surely the best form of self defence is not being in a situation in the first place.  Stay away from ********s and rough places, get a cab home early to avoid the rush.  You all know the drills.


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## tenzen

The op has also said that he is teaching what he knows to his partner. Already its a bad idea you can't teach what you don't know. He needs an instructor because neither him or his partner have a clue. Yes we could help him from the forum provided he posted numerous videos each with multiple angles for us all to critique and even then he will have developed bad habits because it was not physical instruction. Oh and did I mention he's teaching this ********. He needs to wait bottomline, all he is doing now is causing more work for him and his future sifu.


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## yak sao

Another thing to consider is let's say that he posted videos and we critiqued them. He would be getting feedback from multiple lineages. "Weight back, No, weight forward. Pivot on your heels, no pivot on the balls of your feet......" the poor bastich would go insane in a matter of a couple of video postings.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

chain punch said:


> Boys give this guy a break.  He is passionate and wants to learn.  Stop with all this elitist talk about the complexity of wing chun, analogies brain surgery seem rather tenuous at best.  I do not think he wants to learn online.  He wants guidance not preaching.  Help not criticism.  Instead of telling him what he should not do, this forum should be a place of nurturing.
> 
> I agree with most of you that wing chun is hard and challenging and real progress and learning only occurs with quality partners and instructors.
> 
> Why don't we recommend him some punching and footwork videos and set him a target of 100,000 punches with each arm in a 3 month period?  Forget the forms.  I am going to put my neck on the block and say do you really need them to be good ay wing chun.  I say no.  What are the basics that he needs to learn so that when he does get a teacher he won't feel too daft.
> 
> So how about quality punching with balance and basic footwork?
> 
> Paul



Alright paul ... I am open to critique. And i'm gonna post something here. videos .. since its early in the morning here i see no better time to make a video.

@ Fight issue.... i in no way am a man of violence the most violent i've ever gotten is when i slapped and knocked down a man shorter than i for offending a friend of mine who was shorter than the man in question. Other than that i dont have a single recollection of violence. I donot want to test my mettle against someone on the streets thats just not how i do things ... WC is something i wholeheartedly wish to learn.

My greatest inspiration is Mr Fan , Lee Jun hehe


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> It might be fun to help the guy out collectively. Interesting experiment if you ask me.
> 
> It is hard to judge before seeing the guy in action. If he has good kinesthetic-visual connection he could learn a lot from us + videos + etc.
> 
> Immediate feedback from a qualified teacher is best. Not so immediate feedback from a bunch of high level peoples in the forums should be good enough until the time comes when he could get a qualified teacher for feedback. It could lead to interesting discussions, and it is certainly better to his chances of defending himself successfully. (several of my beginner level students have gotten in many street/self defense altercations, all victorious!! I'm so proud!!).
> 
> If not, I can help as much as possibler through this medium if needed. I think it will be fun! Or a disaster!  Yet we will know the truth only by experimenting and giving a chance to explore something to see where it leads. The Internets is fun!! Skype and such technologies is fun! Let's see what we can do with it!
> 
> Your call, Mr. Haris Lamboo Faisal.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Juan Mercado



I say bring it , ready as i've ever been.

Okay Im in the process of uploading the SLT Video. i didnt make this just now but was recorded a few days ago i think.

EDit: SLT video uploaded , don't know if im blowing smoke up your *** or if you guys are blowing smoke up mine but please he gentle haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMGRUDWN3DA&feature=channel_video_title


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## yak sao

HLF...God love you for wanting to learn WC and I applaud your enthusiasm for trying to learn on your own, but I have got to say....STOP!!!!please stop!!!! I'm not saying this to embarrass you or to come across as some kind of elitist *** bag, but there are so many things wrong with what you are doing that I don't know where to begin. You have got to find a teacher.

And I sincerely hope you are able to find what you are looking for


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

yak sao said:


> HLF...God love you for wanting to learn WC and I applaud your enthusiasm for trying to learn on your own, but I have got to say....STOP!!!!please stop!!!! I'm not saying this to embarrass you or to come across as some kind of elitist *** bag, but there are so many things wrong with what you are doing that I don't know where to begin. You have got to find a teacher.
> 
> And I sincerely hope you are able to find what you are looking for




haha your comment made me feel like i had just given anal to sil lim tao surely it wasnt that bad for a beginner.i know the shoulders could be lowered a bit more and the structure could be a little better.


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## wtxs

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> I say bring it , ready as i've ever been.
> 
> Okay Im in the process of uploading the SLT Video. i didnt make this just now but was recorded a few days ago i think.
> 
> EDit: SLT video uploaded , don't know if im blowing smoke up your *** or if you guys are blowing smoke up mine but please he gentle haha.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMGRUDWN3DA&feature=channel_video_title



I'm sorry my friend, I've replay the video many times, if I didn't know any better ... your WC demo is so wrong on so many levels.  Those bad habits everyone fears are riddled through out, it will be definitely hard to correct once they are ingrained.

I'll have to agree with those opinions against video/online/books learning.


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## yak sao

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> haha your comment made me feel like i had just given anal to sil lim tao surely it wasnt that bad for a beginner.i know the shoulders could be lowered a bit more and the structure could be a little better.


 

This is on the verge of bizzare. You ask for help and honest critique, we try to give it to you and you discount it. There is more indepth knowledge of WC from the people on this forum than you could possibly realize and you just laugh it off................I'm done trying to help........Am I on Candid Camera?????????????


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## yak sao

No wait, I'm not done. Forgive my rant.  Let's start over.
Let me ask you . What lineage of WC are you trying to emulate? That will give us some framework to work with.


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## mook jong man

I was going to have a look at the video , but I trust Yak Sao's judgement , so I won't bother.
If he think's it's pretty ordinary , then it's pretty ordinary.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

if you feel so strongly about this yak sao than i guess you are right... i do not discount anything you are saying on the contrary i am actually listening intently while making an argument for myself ... i know of only a few lineages and i am related to none of them ... as you say you have noticed many , could you pointa few out ... my mistakes i.e.


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## yak sao

.



 
This is the man himself. I can't speak with any authority whatsoever from any other lineage.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

wtxs said:


> I'm sorry my friend, I've replay the video many times, if I didn't know any better ... your WC demo is so wrong on so many levels.  Those bad habits everyone fears are riddled through out, it will be definitely hard to correct once they are ingrained.
> 
> I'll have to agree with those opinions against video/online/books learning.



I am glad that you spoke the truth =)


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

yak sao said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the man himself. I can't speak with any authority whatsoever from any other lineage.



OH boy was i off ... dont take this as discounting your opinion but my guess is that im mixing so much stuff together that some of the things im doing make me look like a fool infront of this hence light is shed on your insistance that online learning is not appropriate though i think most people would make fools of themselves when they compare their form to yip man. Its sticking to one lineage that is the problem with the online stuff and i don't think ip man graced youtube with every form he ever practiced pfsheesh.


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## cwk

Ok,  If your intent on training alone,and as much as I think it's a bad idea, I'm going to give you a couple of basic tips that are pretty much universal in all lineages.

1.RELAX- try to get your movements smoother with no tension. Think about moving like you would in water. Not so jerky.

2.STANCE- when you opened your feet to get into the stance, your body was rocking back and forth and also bobbing up and down.This is not good. Try to sink more and stay at that level while opening up your stance. Also tuck your hips to flatten the lower back.

3.ELBOWS AND SHOULDERS - sink the shoulders into the sockets, keep your upper arms next to your chest, KEEP YOUR ELBOWS IN AND DOWN. Sorry to say this, but the way you were moving your elbows on that clip looked like you were dancing at a rave, all you needed were white gloves and whistle lol.

4. FIND A PROPER TEACHER AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!!


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## cwk

Actually, I just watched your clip again-
Skip tips 1-3 and just do number 4.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

cwk said:


> Actually, I just watched your clip again-
> Skip tips 1-3 and just do number 4.



honestly! finding a teacher is what i've been trying to do for the past 2 months ... and its just not happening at the moment , i would really like to have someone teach me ... now atleast i have ip man's authentic version of SKT to work with and the weaknesses in my structure and the shoulders sometimes raising have been duly noted. Elbows in shoulders down , that i can do , with how much proficiency , i wouldnt be able to tell you , but yip man's version is quite different from the previous image of SLT in my head. So im going to try it.

EDIT: until luck changes.


----------



## Nabakatsu

The learning comes in stages. Perhaps for awhile you will force your elbows and shoulders down into position, and than eventually you will relax and keep things in place in a loose manner. The learning process seems to be constant evolution.


----------



## tenzen

like we all said from the beginning, what you are doing is wrong not to mention horrible. We do applaude your efforts but be patient and find a qualified instructor. And for gods sakes man don't try to teach that to anyone ever.


----------



## profesormental

Greetings.

I ask, before anything, what is your purpose or driving motivation to learn Wing Chun?

If you want a good base to learn how to fight and defend yourself, it is better to train with live humans, so going to the MMA schools you mentioned that are near would be good. You'd be training with others that will fight and resist. That is good experience.

Here's the thing.

high level Wing Chun, as in any kind of high level martial practice, requires a knowledgeable teacher to correct details.

As I said, you need very good visual-kinesthetic awareness so you can self correct. That takes constant correction for a while from a teacher that knows how things are done right.

Thus it would be a good idea to train in a school with others so you can develop the body awareness needed to learn via other methods.

Without body awareness and self correction, remote learning of a physical activity that requires such details is hard.

Yet there are partner drills that could benefit you and help you develop better attributes, without having to work the forms. There are many variations, and you need deep knowledge to know why the variations exist and which is better for you.

Yet I think you would be better off having training and experience in the schools near your area to build basic fundamental body awareness, body control, fitness, etc.

With such a base, your body will be able to learn better and faster any other physical skill. And when you find a knowledgeable teacher, you will be better equipped.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado

P.S. If you have SPECIFIC questions, it would be more beneficial and easier to answer. Also it would create good discussion without focus on the fact that you want to learn remotely.


----------



## cwk

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> honestly! finding a teacher is what i've been trying to do for the past 2 months ... and its just not happening at the moment , i would really like to have someone teach me ... now atleast i have ip man's authentic version of SKT to work with and the weaknesses in my structure and the shoulders sometimes raising have been duly noted. Elbows in shoulders down , that i can do , with how much proficiency , i wouldnt be able to tell you , but yip man's version is quite different from the previous image of SLT in my head. So im going to try it.
> 
> EDIT: until luck changes.



Don't take it to heart kid, I was only pulling your leg.Hence the smiley face.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> I ask, before anything, what is your purpose or driving motivation to learn Wing Chun?
> 
> If you want a good base to learn how to fight and defend yourself, it is better to train with live humans, so going to the MMA schools you mentioned that are near would be good. You'd be training with others that will fight and resist. That is good experience.
> 
> Here's the thing.
> 
> high level Wing Chun, as in any kind of high level martial practice, requires a knowledgeable teacher to correct details.
> 
> As I said, you need very good visual-kinesthetic awareness so you can self correct. That takes constant correction for a while from a teacher that knows how things are done right.
> 
> Thus it would be a good idea to train in a school with others so you can develop the body awareness needed to learn via other methods.
> 
> Without body awareness and self correction, remote learning of a physical activity that requires such details is hard.
> 
> Yet there are partner drills that could benefit you and help you develop better attributes, without having to work the forms. There are many variations, and you need deep knowledge to know why the variations exist and which is better for you.
> 
> Yet I think you would be better off having training and experience in the schools near your area to build basic fundamental body awareness, body control, fitness, etc.
> 
> With such a base, your body will be able to learn better and faster any other physical skill. And when you find a knowledgeable teacher, you will be better equipped.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Juan Mercado
> 
> P.S. If you have SPECIFIC questions, it would be more beneficial and easier to answer. Also it would create good discussion without focus on the fact that you want to learn remotely.



AS it stands right now what all of you are saying makes sense to me or i wouldnt be here replying to a thread that is obviously atleast getting somewhere for the most part ... thanks to you guys i have bee able to establish that the SLT i learnt was of a different lineage , perhaps less comparable to yip man's,but i think im getting ahead of myself and really need to focus on the very basics before i can move forward for obvious reasons ... i'd imagine there would be hand positions like fuk sao ,wu sao, tan sau, bong sao and the likes , okay my biggest question to you is , i know this is a commitment something i wholeheartedly want to do , how much should i practice and should i begin by identifying the hand positions or the form first?( keeping in mind ofcourse that i am well aware of my centreline , economy of motion and conservation of energy)


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

cwk said:


> Don't take it to heart kid, I was only pulling your leg.Hence the smiley face.



Damn im better at reading a human face than a forum post , but the smiley was definately there lol .... i have reconsidered teaching what i've learnt to my partner and it is currently on hold , we shifted to endurance drills and tests of stamina until i can wrap my mind and body around the differences in the SLT i had learnt and Yip man's SLT vid that was so kindly presented to me by yak sao.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> I say bring it , ready as i've ever been.
> 
> Okay Im in the process of uploading the SLT Video. i didnt make this just now but was recorded a few days ago i think.
> 
> EDit: SLT video uploaded , don't know if im blowing smoke up your *** or if you guys are blowing smoke up mine but please he gentle haha.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMGRUDWN3DA&feature=channel_video_title


 
Ladies and gentelmen of the jury, the defense has proven my case.  The defenant Haris Lamboo Faisal is guilty of all charges I have made.  The prosecution rests ! ! !

What was that? (Imitation of Bruce Lee from Enter the Dragon).  As Yak Sau and wtxs stated, the form(?) on the video was wrong on so many different levels.  It was truely bizzarre, I didn't see any movements in there that even resembles Wing Chun, much less used like Wing Chun.  I'm guessing here, but at least one of the forms you've been watching and imitating are from William Cheung lineage, correct?  What you were doing looks very karate like, hard, stiff, snappy movements much like Cheungs, but not even looking close to his system.  Nothing chinese about it.  No offense meant Haris Lamboo Faisal, but I say hang it up buddy before you make it even worse.

I have more to say (not to you Haris Lamboo Faisal) but don't have time to write it.  Later today if I get the chance.  Today is Mother's Day in the U.S, and I have to attend to mine.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

fair enough ... i shall return in a day or two see where this forum gets me =)
I would like to add the by no means do i consider one lineage better than the other but it is my opinion that i would like to know even the slightest differences in technique between all. But that is talk for way down the road.


----------



## tenzen

I wouldn't say it was from cheungs lineage, which by the way faisal comes from ip man. It looks more like something from that klauss brand guy, which would come from leung ting which would come from no one knows because no one can verify him ever ever ever training with ip sifu. He is a complete mystery there. And faisal if you are aware of the centerline theory your video shows just that, you are aware that it exists but have no grasp of the actual concept. Stick to chain punching and that only until you get to an instructor.


----------



## mook jong man

Alright I watched the video I couldn't help myself , It's a bit like when you drive past a car accident you just have to have a bit of stickybeak even though you don't want to.

To save on time and typing I am going to ignore everything else that was wrong and just say get your wrist's on the damn centreline and keep them there.

Your enthusiasm is to be commended , I wish there were a few more people like you in my own country that had such a desire to learn Wing Chun.
But it seems like you are up **** creek without a paddle as far as finding someone to teach you in your area.

So I would recommend that you go and find a nice cheap boxing gym as an alternative , it's not Wing Chun but at least you will get some experience at hitting pads and moving targets.
I have taught boxers before and it didn't seem to take them as long to adjust to Wing Chun as it did for people that came from other martial systems.

At least you could do that until sometime further down the track and your circumstances change and you can find a quality Wing Chun school.


----------



## Domino

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> i've called and talked to both places one is about 800 km from where i live and the other is shut down :S
> 
> I find sil lim tao in itself simple enough ... also chum kiu i have been slowly pracxticing and elarning to make sure i dont miss any details ... i'm gonna upload a sill lim tao and chum kiu video of mine here. and you guys are welcome to comment. if you like



You're welcome 
If it means alot to you and you're old enough, move house.
And like the others have said, it's the things you dont see that make all the difference. (intent, angles, pressure or tension, motion)


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Domino said:


> You're welcome
> If it means alot to you and you're old enough, move house.
> And like the others have said, it's the things you dont see that make all the difference. (intent, angles, pressure or tension, motion)



thank you but i would be doing the people who love me a terrible injustice if i were to move. However i Have to admit i owe everyone here an apology.

1. Thinking i was some sort of a  genius who could move too fast.
2. More importantly, Not giving the intricacies and details of wing chun the proper respect they deserve.

But the intricacies made me want to learn wing chun even more ... i think i'm obsessed with it now :S
As an apology for showing you guys that apalling thing of a sil lim tao i have put together something that might make me want to commit seppuku less... I hope it is more to your tastes than the first one for it took me a considerable about of time and some good luck to figure out though i know its not perfect i would be truthfully happy if it pleased you. apologies for the one edit. 

Here's the link.





If you guys dont like this im going to go joina  boxing gym haha =p


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

tenzen said:


> I wouldn't say it was from cheungs lineage, which by the way faisal comes from ip man. It looks more like something from that klauss brand guy, which would come from leung ting which would come from no one knows because no one can verify him ever ever ever training with ip sifu. He is a complete mystery there. And faisal if you are aware of the centerline theory your video shows just that, you are aware that it exists but have no grasp of the actual concept. Stick to chain punching and that only until you get to an instructor.



I apologise for not knowing my lineages and for mocking sil lim tao badly ... but in spite of that i'm sorta obsessed with wing chun and so i redid and tried to relearn sil lim tao as best i could , please dont hate me for it but i would be much obliged if you take a look at the video link above and if you think it is still wrong i will join a mma school until i can find a WC sifu for i want to learn properly! thankyou for the comment.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> Alright I watched the video I couldn't help myself , It's a bit like when you drive past a car accident you just have to have a bit of stickybeak even though you don't want to.
> 
> To save on time and typing I am going to ignore everything else that was wrong and just say get your wrist's on the damn centreline and keep them there.
> 
> Your enthusiasm is to be commended , I wish there were a few more people like you in my own country that had such a desire to learn Wing Chun.
> But it seems like you are up **** creek without a paddle as far as finding someone to teach you in your area.
> 
> So I would recommend that you go and find a nice cheap boxing gym as an alternative , it's not Wing Chun but at least you will get some experience at hitting pads and moving targets.
> I have taught boxers before and it didn't seem to take them as long to adjust to Wing Chun as it did for people that came from other martial systems.
> 
> At least you could do that until sometime further down the track and your circumstances change and you can find a quality Wing Chun school.


 Not so fast there mook ... please do me the favour of watching this version of the video which is a few posts up ... it is in a way the fruits of my labors since you pointed out some really nice points about the form i would really like you to see it ... if you think it is still wrong i will go join a mma school and wait for a WC sifu patiently. For i like to always learn.


----------



## yak sao

I have to commend you....that at least is starting to look like WC.....there is much to work on.
 I wish I had a dozen students with your drive.
Even though I will always believe WC is best learned from a live teacher I would be willing to do what I can to help you out. Maybe some short video tutorials?
I mean hell, if you're going to do it, why not at least get some help, right???


----------



## mook jong man

Ok , mate your starting to win me over , that is something we may be able to start working with.
But you have to decide which lineage you are going to do , otherwise you are just going to confuse yourself and us .

I only have expertise in my lineage as I have not done any other , whilst there are some things I think are universal , there are marked differences in both the terminology of some movements and the way they are performed across the different lineages.

If you are determined to do this , and it looks like you are , then I suggest that you break up the Sil Lum Tao into it's three sections like as what would happen in a proper Kwoon for a beginner student.
Just learn the first section first , and do not advance to learning the other sections until you have received some feed back to see how well or badly you are doing it.

Regarding your latest cinematic masterpiece , fix the lighting up , we can't see what you are doing , it looks like a bad 70's porno movie.

These things are pretty universal I reckon when it comes to Wing Chun , when you measure your stance out , bend the knees , then toes out , then heels out.

Heels should be shoulder width apart , toes should be pointing towards the centre , If I straightened my arm out  and visualised lines coming from my feet , they would meet roughly where the end of my arm is to form the apex of a triangle

Tilt your pelvis forward , so the hips are locked in and the spine is straightened , this joins the upper and lower body into one cohesive unit.

Look side on in a mirror , from the back of the the shoulders to the knees should be a straight line , check to make sure you are not leaning back , back of shoulders in line with back of heels ,no further.

Sink your weight down so that knees are approximately just over the toes and weight is evenly distributed .

I must state that this is only my lineages version of the stance , other lineages will have an emphasis on having a linkage effect between the knees , in ours we just sink down and relax.

I am not going to worry about up top because I don't know what you are doing , there seem to be some weird embellishments to the form that I haven't seen before.
Maybe someone else can recognise it , but whatever you are doing , initiate the movement from the elbow and except for when striking , and the sidewards parry maintain the angle of the arm , and keep the wrists on the centreline .

*Remember , * get competent  one section at a time before you go any further .


----------



## tenzen

Hmmm... very awkward. Your feet are all wrong and you don't readjust them during the form. A lot of your angles appear to be off and your fist is closed during your bong sau, that's gonna cause you to damage the radial nerve giving the funny bone effect.  The hand should be like the wing of a crane there. Also your tan sau is too low.  There's a lot of craziness going on and you are very unsure of yourself. Listen to what mook has said about learning slt in its sections and don't progress to the next one until someone in here gives you the go ahead.

Could you direct us to the video you are using so we may better figure out how to help you and with what lineage you are working from. To me it almost looks like the master wong stuff but does have some resemblance to the cheung stuff. Its kind of confusing because I see elements from man different lineages which would mean that you are trying to learn it from a few video sources. Is that the case? If so you will have to pick one source and stick with it.

That website i posted for you a few pages back is for people like yourself who are trying to learn online. Thats why i posted it for you. Obviously we dont believe in that but it can be a big help for you and what your attempting to do. It breaks everythin down for you. Give it a looking over and see what you can get out of it. In the meantime direct us to your current video source so we can figure this madness out.


----------



## Domino

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> thank you but i would be doing the people who love me a terrible injustice if i were to move. However i Have to admit i owe everyone here an apology.
> 
> 1. Thinking i was some sort of a  genius who could move too fast.
> 2. More importantly, Not giving the intricacies and details of wing chun the proper respect they deserve.
> 
> But the intricacies made me want to learn wing chun even more ... i think i'm obsessed with it now :S
> As an apology for showing you guys that apalling thing of a sil lim tao i have put together something that might make me want to commit seppuku less... I hope it is more to your tastes than the first one for it took me a considerable about of time and some good luck to figure out though i know its not perfect i would be truthfully happy if it pleased you. apologies for the one edit.
> 
> Here's the link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you guys dont like this im going to go joina  boxing gym haha =p



Thats very thoughtful to your family and I have been there myself but sometimes we must concentrate on ourselves.
No need for apologies, your on a long journey learning allsorts as you go, you didn't make a mistake, you just learn't something.

2 things in your 1st section of SLT, circling your hand at the wrist not the arm and when feeding your tan sau relax and come up to shoulder height or else it will be ineffective.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> thank you but i would be doing the people who love me a terrible injustice if i were to move. However i Have to admit i owe everyone here an apology.
> 
> 1. Thinking i was some sort of a genius who could move too fast.
> 2. More importantly, Not giving the intricacies and details of wing chun the proper respect they deserve.
> 
> But the intricacies made me want to learn wing chun even more ... i think i'm obsessed with it now :S
> As an apology for showing you guys that apalling thing of a sil lim tao i have put together something that might make me want to commit seppuku less... I hope it is more to your tastes than the first one for it took me a considerable about of time and some good luck to figure out though i know its not perfect i would be truthfully happy if it pleased you. apologies for the one edit.
> 
> Here's the link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you guys dont like this im going to go joina boxing gym haha =p


 
Ditto on what Domino, mook jong man, tenzen, and yak sau about this link. Actually looks a lot better, more like Wing Chun.  But, I still have to say, I disagree with what you are doing, trying to learn Wing Chun by yourself, even with the help of members from this forum.


----------



## zepedawingchun

chain punch said:


> I think it is a good idea. We are not messing with his life. That statement is an exaggeration. Was it not Yang Lu Chan who leant taichi by initially spying on a master?
> 
> Z, worry not about reputations, they are not important. Who cares what others think of wing chun? No one owns wing chun so why the need to feel so possessive? It was here before us and will most certainly be here once we are gone. I don't think there is a worst way to learn but a worst way to be instructed might be a more suitable way to think about it.
> 
> With reference to the auto mechanic, how people love engines fix them without any formal training? Loads. He does not to do it as a job but for himself.
> 
> As I said, no one owns wing chun and there should be no knowledge filter. Just because in the olden days the instruction was slow in terms of what you got does not mean that is the best way to teach. My belief is that this model is down right ridiculous. And just because someone has reached a certain level in any martial arts does not equate to teaching ability.


 
I don't know who Lang Yu Chan is and whether he learned tai chi from spying or not. That's not my concern. I teach Wing Chun and that s what I'm concerned about. And spying from the bushes, or through a window, or whatever, is not the same as learning from videos or online.

We don't know why Haris Lamboo Faisal wants to study Wing Chun. Or whether one day he may have to use it to protect himself. But as people who care for our fellow human beings, we owe it to him to make sure if he does have to do something to protect himself, the Wing Chun he tries to use doesn't fail him because he learned or practiced it incorrectly.

As for the comment about reputations not being important, I have to disagree. As a business professional in the IT/IS and martial arts world, reputation is important. Sometimes your reputation speaks for you when you can't. Also, a lot of people, companies, law enforcement, and the government, select or don't select companies and individuals because of their reputations or lack of. 

In the 1990's, the US government selected my Sifu to help the U.S. Army update their close quarter hand to hand combat manuals. Learning stuff that our military personnel's lives may depend on when in the field of close quarter combat. And he was chosen first because of his reputation and then when they saw him, his skills. (See bio http://www.francisfongacademy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=78) 

Locally, I have had several of the county sheriff partrol officers come to me for training in Wing Chun because of my and the arts reputation. I have spoke to these officers on many occasions and they tell me about how they use the Wing Chun they've been trained in, in their jobs when dealing with criminals. Their lives depend on the training they get from the government and whatever or whomever they seek out for on their own training (mainly someone like me or other martial artists they may contact).

Many of my students have come to me because of my reputation as an instructor and practitioner in Wing Chun. I have been an instructor in Wing Chun for over 22 years, and my reputation is important to me. People know when they come to me for training, they will get the best training they can for their hard earned money. As a professional, I am concerned that what people learn from me will aid them when they have to use it.

Why do you chose to go to this company for service over that company? A lot of times it's because of reputation. Why do some people choose this martial art over that martial art when there are a number to choose from? A lot of times it's because they've heard of the reputation of this art over that art. After all this that I have stated, don't tell me reputation is not important and nobody cares. Yes they do.

You're right about nobody owning Wing Chun. But it is our duty as practitioners to teach it in the best way possible and pass it on correctly so that it won't disappear in the next few generations.

And as for auto mechanics, to be a *professional* mechanic (who cares about some backyard wrench turner. When you can't fix it, who do you go to, a professional), you have to have education and certification through authorized, accredited, certified, and recognized mechanic schools to work for a dealership or legitimate repair shops. If you aren't, your business won't last too long, especially in the U.S. You can be the best back yard mechanic, but with out certification, nobody with hire you or takes you serious.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

yak sao said:


> I have to commend you....that at least is starting to look like WC.....there is much to work on.
> I wish I had a dozen students with your drive.
> Even though I will always believe WC is best learned from a live teacher I would be willing to do what I can to help you out. Maybe some short video tutorials?
> I mean hell, if you're going to do it, why not at least get some help, right???



Thank you


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> Ok , mate your starting to win me over , that is something we may be able to start working with.
> But you have to decide which lineage you are going to do , otherwise you are just going to confuse yourself and us .
> 
> I only have expertise in my lineage as I have not done any other , whilst there are some things I think are universal , there are marked differences in both the terminology of some movements and the way they are performed across the different lineages.
> 
> If you are determined to do this , and it looks like you are , then I suggest that you break up the Sil Lum Tao into it's three sections like as what would happen in a proper Kwoon for a beginner student.
> Just learn the first section first , and do not advance to learning the other sections until you have received some feed back to see how well or badly you are doing it.
> 
> Regarding your latest cinematic masterpiece , fix the lighting up , we can't see what you are doing , it looks like a bad 70's porno movie.
> 
> These things are pretty universal I reckon when it comes to Wing Chun , when you measure your stance out , bend the knees , then toes out , then heels out.
> 
> Heels should be shoulder width apart , toes should be pointing towards the centre , If I straightened my arm out  and visualised lines coming from my feet , they would meet roughly where the end of my arm is to form the apex of a triangle
> 
> Tilt your pelvis forward , so the hips are locked in and the spine is straightened , this joins the upper and lower body into one cohesive unit.
> 
> Look side on in a mirror , from the back of the the shoulders to the knees should be a straight line , check to make sure you are not leaning back , back of shoulders in line with back of heels ,no further.
> 
> Sink your weight down so that knees are approximately just over the toes and weight is evenly distributed .
> 
> I must state that this is only my lineages version of the stance , other lineages will have an emphasis on having a linkage effect between the knees , in ours we just sink down and relax.
> 
> I am not going to worry about up top because I don't know what you are doing , there seem to be some weird embellishments to the form that I haven't seen before.
> Maybe someone else can recognise it , but whatever you are doing , initiate the movement from the elbow and except for when striking , and the sidewards parry maintain the angle of the arm , and keep the wrists on the centreline .
> 
> *Remember , * get competent  one section at a time before you go any further .



Every so often i get a about half an hour in a sparsely populated workspace in front of the mirror ... i've actually done exactly that after  reading your post earlier during work  i remembered to check MT on my cellphone because about after half an hour of sitting idle my hand did a motion which resembled a hin sao i think .... so during the free time i get i've divided the form into parts though i dont know if they are correctly divided and also i kept evertyhing you said in mind before i started practicing the sil lim tao in the afternoon... one question though why is it always left firs then right?


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

tenzen said:


> Hmmm... very awkward. Your feet are all wrong and you don't readjust them during the form. A lot of your angles appear to be off and your fist is closed during your bong sau, that's gonna cause you to damage the radial nerve giving the funny bone effect.  The hand should be like the wing of a crane there. Also your tan sau is too low.  There's a lot of craziness going on and you are very unsure of yourself. Listen to what mook has said about learning slt in its sections and don't progress to the next one until someone in here gives you the go ahead.
> 
> Could you direct us to the video you are using so we may better figure out how to help you and with what lineage you are working from. To me it almost looks like the master wong stuff but does have some resemblance to the cheung stuff. Its kind of confusing because I see elements from man different lineages which would mean that you are trying to learn it from a few video sources. Is that the case? If so you will have to pick one source and stick with it.
> 
> That website i posted for you a few pages back is for people like yourself who are trying to learn online. Thats why i posted it for you. Obviously we dont believe in that but it can be a big help for you and what your attempting to do. It breaks everythin down for you. Give it a looking over and see what you can get out of it. In the meantime direct us to your current video source so we can figure this madness out.



While practicing today at work during free time i actually made it a point not to close my fist during bong sau  
the lsource of the videos i tried to reproduce my imperfect sil lim tao are




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWDx4WiOipc&feature=channel_video_title

I found that ip man's sil lim tao was rather quick for the untrained eye and so i used the second one and first one in conjunction to see whether i could decipher the movements.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Domino said:


> Thats very thoughtful to your family and I have been there myself but sometimes we must concentrate on ourselves.
> No need for apologies, your on a long journey learning allsorts as you go, you didn't make a mistake, you just learn't something.
> 
> 2 things in your 1st section of SLT, circling your hand at the wrist not the arm and when feeding your tan sau relax and come up to shoulder height or else it will be ineffective.




thank you i will keep that in mind. try to keep the arm as relaxed as possible guess i need some practice.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> I don't know who Lang Yu Chan is and whether he learned tai chi from spying or not. That's not my concern. I teach Wing Chun and that s what I'm concerned about. And spying from the bushes, or through a window, or whatever, is not the same as learning from videos or online.
> 
> We don't know why Haris Lamboo Faisal wants to study Wing Chun. Or whether one day he may have to use it to protect himself. But as people who care for our fellow human beings, we owe it to him to make sure if he does have to do something to protect himself, the Wing Chun he tries to use doesn't fail him because he learned or practiced it incorrectly.
> 
> As for the comment about reputations not being important, I have to disagree. As a business professional in the IT/IS and martial arts world, reputation is important. Sometimes your reputation speaks for you when you can't. Also, a lot of people, companies, law enforcement, and the government, select or don't select companies and individuals because of their reputations or lack of.
> 
> In the 1990's, the US government selected my Sifu to help the U.S. Army update their close quarter hand to hand combat manuals. Learning stuff that our military personnel's lives may depend on when in the field of close quarter combat. And he was chosen first because of his reputation and then when they saw him, his skills. (See bio http://www.francisfongacademy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=78)
> 
> Locally, I have had several of the county sheriff partrol officers come to me for training in Wing Chun because of my and the arts reputation. I have spoke to these officers on many occasions and they tell me about how they use the Wing Chun they've been trained in, in their jobs when dealing with criminals. Their lives depend on the training they get from the government and whatever or whomever they seek out for on their own training (mainly someone like me or other martial artists they may contact).
> 
> Many of my students have come to me because of my reputation as an instructor and practitioner in Wing Chun. I have been an instructor in Wing Chun for over 22 years, and my reputation is important to me. People know when they come to me for training, they will get the best training they can for their hard earned money. As a professional, I am concerned that what people learn from me will aid them when they have to use it.
> 
> Why do you chose to go to this company for service over that company? A lot of times it's because of reputation. Why do some people choose this martial art over that martial art when there are a number to choose from? A lot of times it's because they've heard of the reputation of this art over that art. After all this that I have stated, don't tell me reputation is not important and nobody cares. Yes they do.
> 
> You're right about nobody owning Wing Chun. But it is our duty as practitioners to teach it in the best way possible and pass it on correctly so that it won't disappear in the next few generations.
> 
> And as for auto mechanics, to be a *professional* mechanic (who cares about some backyard wrench turner. When you can't fix it, who do you go to, a professional), you have to have education and certification through authorized, accredited, certified, and recognized mechanic schools to work for a dealership or legitimate repair shops. If you aren't, your business won't last too long, especially in the U.S. You can be the best back yard mechanic, but with out certification, nobody with hire you or takes you serious.



Wow your academy and your sifu seem really amazing.


----------



## wtxs

Haris Lamboo Faisal, since you are determined to learn WC any way you can, an very good training DVD to date IMHO is the one by Wong Shun Leung - The Science of In-Fighting.

The video could be found on the net, it will show you how to properly execute the WC movements.


----------



## chain punch

zepedawingchun said:


> I don't know who Lang Yu Chan is and whether he learned tai chi from spying or not. That's not my concern. I teach Wing Chun and that s what I'm concerned about. And spying from the bushes, or through a window, or whatever, is not the same as learning from videos or online.
> 
> We don't know why Haris Lamboo Faisal wants to study Wing Chun. Or whether one day he may have to use it to protect himself. But as people who care for our fellow human beings, we owe it to him to make sure if he does have to do something to protect himself, the Wing Chun he tries to use doesn't fail him because he learned or practiced it incorrectly.
> 
> As for the comment about reputations not being important, I have to disagree. As a business professional in the IT/IS and martial arts world, reputation is important. Sometimes your reputation speaks for you when you can't. Also, a lot of people, companies, law enforcement, and the government, select or don't select companies and individuals because of their reputations or lack of.
> 
> In the 1990's, the US government selected my Sifu to help the U.S. Army update their close quarter hand to hand combat manuals. Learning stuff that our military personnel's lives may depend on when in the field of close quarter combat. And he was chosen first because of his reputation and then when they saw him, his skills. (See bio http://www.francisfongacademy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=78)
> 
> Locally, I have had several of the county sheriff partrol officers come to me for training in Wing Chun because of my and the arts reputation. I have spoke to these officers on many occasions and they tell me about how they use the Wing Chun they've been trained in, in their jobs when dealing with criminals. Their lives depend on the training they get from the government and whatever or whomever they seek out for on their own training (mainly someone like me or other martial artists they may contact).
> 
> Many of my students have come to me because of my reputation as an instructor and practitioner in Wing Chun. I have been an instructor in Wing Chun for over 22 years, and my reputation is important to me. People know when they come to me for training, they will get the best training they can for their hard earned money. As a professional, I am concerned that what people learn from me will aid them when they have to use it.
> 
> Why do you chose to go to this company for service over that company? A lot of times it's because of reputation. Why do some people choose this martial art over that martial art when there are a number to choose from? A lot of times it's because they've heard of the reputation of this art over that art. After all this that I have stated, don't tell me reputation is not important and nobody cares. Yes they do.
> 
> You're right about nobody owning Wing Chun. But it is our duty as practitioners to teach it in the best way possible and pass it on correctly so that it won't disappear in the next few generations.
> 
> And as for auto mechanics, to be a *professional* mechanic (who cares about some backyard wrench turner. When you can't fix it, who do you go to, a professional), you have to have education and certification through authorized, accredited, certified, and recognized mechanic schools to work for a dealership or legitimate repair shops. If you aren't, your business won't last too long, especially in the U.S. You can be the best back yard mechanic, but with out certification, nobody with hire you or takes you serious.



I really enjoyed the depth to your answers and long may healthy disagreement continue on this forum.  

I am assuming his motives for learning wing chun are to protect himself as they are mine.  Him doing the first form and us lot analysing it will not protect him when it all kicks off.  That was why I suggested he learn how to hit hard properly and in balance.  When your Sifu taught at the military what did he teach them first?  Quality combatives or forms.  I am attempting to belittle the value of forms training, merely attempting to put them in context.

Pre-emption over all other tactics is the most significantly effective method of halting a situation.  I know this is nigh on impossible to teach without training partners but something he should be aware of.  If possible I recommend a book called Dead or Alive by Geoff Thompson.  If there is a better book on self defense I have not yet seen it.  No it is not a wing chun book but sound principles are sound principles no matter what the source.

Regarding reputation, I gladly disagree too.  A reputation is just that.  It is not cold hard fact, just opinions.  As I have grown older I attach less importance to reputations as I prefer to judge with my own eyes.  Perhaps there was a misunderstanding in my intentions when discussing reputations.  I meant to say that people, us, you, me, should not care what others think.  We need not spend our lung power or typing skills to convince others of the wonders of wing chun.  Just let it be. Although I do agree that word of mouth can be a powerful advert.  For me actions speak louder than reputations.  As I am new to this forum my reputation in minor at best and I am sure that there are some readers who have less than polite thoughts about me.  So be it.  They are only words.  I am not totally naive as I do know that in the martial arts reputations mean a lot.  I am just suggesting we attach less importance to them.

Judging by the passion with which you all speak, there is no chance that wing chun will fade away in our lifetime or subsequent lifetimes.  Quality lasts and people will naturally radiate towards quality material.

Apologies for using a crap analogy of the mechanic.  I will endeavor to come up with a better one.

Paul


----------



## tenzen

The science of infighting is on youtube in 4 parts. Also the websit I directed you to previously would be of benefit to you. But I gotta stress that I do not agree with they way this is going down as some of the other members have also done.

Chainpunch he has said he just wants to learn wc because he somehow fell in love with it, its not so much that he wants to fight but he wants to learn the system. We all feel like he needs a qualified instructor but he is adamant about doing it this way until he can get to an instructor.  His dedication is admirable.

Faisal by practicing on your own now even with our help your hurting yourself in the future. Its not our place to tell you what to do, but we have given a fair enough warning to what's going to happen. Some of us will try to help the best we can despite how we feel about it. All I have left to say now is good luck man.

And if none of this post makes sense, I don't care its late and I been drinking. So ill kick myself in the morning when I'm sober enough to know what the hell I just said.


----------



## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Every so often i get a about half an hour in a sparsely populated workspace in front of the mirror ... i've actually done exactly that after  reading your post earlier during work  i remembered to check MT on my cellphone because about after half an hour of sitting idle my hand did a motion *which resembled a hin sao i think .*... so during the free time i get i've divided the form into parts though i dont know if they are correctly divided and also i kept evertyhing you said in mind before i started practicing the sil lim tao in the afternoon... *one question though why is it always left firs then right?*



I think you probably meant Huen Sau there , circle hand

It's always left first , then right , because most people are right handed and hence have greater coordination and power in the right arm .
The use of the left arm first redresses this imbalance so that both arms become equally skilled and coordinated and have equal power.


----------



## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> While practicing today at work during free time i actually made it a point not to close my fist during bong sau
> the lsource of the videos i tried to reproduce my imperfect sil lim tao are
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWDx4WiOipc&feature=channel_video_title
> 
> I found that ip man's sil lim tao was rather quick for the untrained eye and so i used the second one and first one in conjunction to see whether i could decipher the movements.



The first one is old Yip Man footage where the film looks sped up , the second one is garbage , a waste of bandwidth .

This is the problem you face trawling the internet for instructional footage , you have no frame of reference as to what good Wing Chun looks like so you can't separate the wheat from the chaff.

There is a lot of crap on the net being represented as Wing Chun , by people who have no business showing it to anyone let alone uploading it for the whole world to see.

Just be very careful in terms of the stuff you are looking at and copying off.


----------



## Domino

Good wing chun can be observed I think, just from the right people, watch it many times over and I think its just good you want to know in the first place.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

okay i practiced yesterday and today i overslept so i didnt go to work that being said i think i have about four hours or so of free time which i am going to use to  further develop sil lim tao in three sections keeping in mind what you have said ... i shall have a video up tonight hopefully.


----------



## yak sao

Try to find a teaching video instead of simply following one off the internet. That way it will at least (hopefully) bring up key points


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

WOah did they make the sequel to the science of in fighting?
just got done watching taht ... i think thats a good teaching vid .... i feel like i have a better understanding of SLT now.


----------



## wtxs

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> WOah did they make the sequel to the science of in fighting?
> just got done watching taht ... i think thats a good teaching vid .... i feel like i have a *better understanding of SLT now*.



As we had been saying, an good teacher is a MUST. :deadhorse  You will not be able to achieve any useful level of understanding without first learn WC properly.  Anyone can parrot most techniques and movements, but you will not understand fully the WHY or HOW they should be carry out and applied.

WC is an simple art stripped of fancy moves, easy to learn ... understand and be proficient will take an life time ... just be aware of those dreaded BAD HABITS.


----------



## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> WOah did they make the sequel to the science of in fighting?
> just got done watching taht ... i think thats a good teaching vid .... i feel like i have a better understanding of SLT now.



I have never watched the video , but if it shows WSL doing the form in full and explains the main points of the stance , then that will do you until you find a live teacher .

You've found the good stuff , now stop looking around the internet and copying your moves off the self promoting "Neville Nobodies" that are perpetuating their crap through out the internetsphere.


----------



## tenzen

No faisal it was not completed. That is the only existing volume. Hopefully one of his top students will finish it. Gary lam is doing his own thing so I don't think he will do it. My guess would be david peterson, he is the one I would say is most likely to finish it, if it ever even happens. Either way both of those guys would be good resources for study materials. I think sifu peterson just wrote a book about wsl wc.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

@mook I've Been practicing ... i still don't think im all that good but hopefully i will continue to learn from the mistakes i make and i will post another vid , going back to the basics and redoing everything from scratch!!! 

@tenzen ... sucha disappointment they didnt get to make a sequel to it though i heard that the same production company made another video


----------



## shaolin_al

haris I just thought of it and feel bad for your situation. There is a local sifu here who offers an international training program through videos and webcam which I think might be your best bet. Here is his website http://awcaonline.com/. I know its never a replacement for in person training but seems like your best option at this point


----------



## zepedawingchun

shaolin_al said:


> haris I just thought of it and feel bad for your situation. There is a local sifu here who offers an international training program through videos and webcam which I think might be your best bet. Here is his website http://awcaonline.com/. I know its never a replacement for in person training but seems like your best option at this point


 
I posted this in another thread, please read:

_Yes, it is possible to be studing sub-standard Wing Chun. I won't name names, but a few years back I met a couple of guys who studied from someone I suspected of not really teaching Wing Chun or even knowing the whole system. The 2 guys learned SNT from this guy and then they learned the remaining forms from videos. When they came to visit me, I asked if they would chi sao with me, and they were terrible.  I spent the next 2 hours fixing or trying to fix their stances, hand positions, structure, everything . They claimed 4 years with this guy when I met them. A few years later, these same 2 guys were off teaching, running a public school, and I'm sure they didn't do anything to improve their skills in the least bit.

So yeah, you can learn sub-par Wing Chun. It happens all the time from people who study for a year or 2 and think that's all they need. Think they know what WC is all about and go out and teach._

That is why you have to delve into the credentials of any martial artist and see if they actually are legitimate.  That's the first place to start.

I too, feel bad for Haris Lamboo Faisal and wish his situation was different.  I think everyone who wants to, should train in Wing Chun.  But it is what it is.  And as I stated earlier in this thread, there are a million things in this world you can have and a million things you can't.  Just because he wants it doesn't mean he can or will get it.  Just because I want a new Ferrari 599GTB or 458 Italia, and can't afford it, doesn't mean I can go and buy one or steal one from some rich guy because I want one or think I'm entitled to own one. I think it is a mistake for him to continue the video or webcam idea.  The two guys I mentioned above were under the guidance of a sifu at first (albeit a bad one) and then got their Wing Chun from tapes by Leung Ting. . . .and still got it completely wrong.  It just proves my point even more as to how much of a mistake it is.

Now Haris Lamboo Faisal can do whatever he wants, so can everyone else, it is his choice.  But I guarantee you, it will come back sometime in the future and bite him in the ***.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> I posted this in another thread, please read:
> 
> _Yes, it is possible to be studing sub-standard Wing Chun. I won't name names, but a few years back I met a couple of guys who studied from someone I suspected of not really teaching Wing Chun or even knowing the whole system. The 2 guys learned SNT from this guy and then they learned the remaining forms from videos. When they came to visit me, I asked if they would chi sao with me, and they were terrible.  I spent the next 2 hours fixing or trying to fix their stances, hand positions, structure, everything . They claimed 4 years with this guy when I met them. A few years later, these same 2 guys were off teaching, running a public school, and I'm sure they didn't do anything to improve their skills in the least bit.
> 
> So yeah, you can learn sub-par Wing Chun. It happens all the time from people who study for a year or 2 and think that's all they need. Think they know what WC is all about and go out and teach._
> 
> That is why you have to delve into the credentials of any martial artist and see if they actually are legitimate.  That's the first place to start.
> 
> I too, feel bad for Haris Lamboo Faisal and wish his situation was different.  I think everyone who wants to, should train in Wing Chun.  But it is what it is.  And as I stated earlier in this thread, there are a million things in this world you can have and a million things you can't.  Just because he wants it doesn't mean he can or will get it.  Just because I want a new Ferrari 599GTB or 458 Italia, and can't afford it, doesn't mean I can go and buy one or steal one from some rich guy because I want one or think I'm entitled to own one. I think it is a mistake for him to continue the video or webcam idea.  The two guys I mentioned above were under the guidance of a sifu at first (albeit a bad one) and then got their Wing Chun from tapes by Leung Ting. . . .and still got it completely wrong.  It just proves my point even more as to how much of a mistake it is.
> 
> Now Haris Lamboo Faisal can do whatever he wants, so can everyone else, it is his choice.  But I guarantee you, it will come back sometime in the future and bite him in the ***.



Tut Tut ... i know this is a commitment my friend ... i know your concern here is obviously the proper promotion of wing chun rather than a half assed system that will do more harm than benefit since no one can physically instruct me ... so here it is  in simple words , it not for the sake of some sort of recognition i donot want to run a wc school or anything of the sort all i want is to develop this wonderful art as something that is mine , in my head something that cant be taken away... because my flawed nature to hold what i think is dear to me has bitten me in the *** more than once but that doesnt stop me from caring for the things i truly enjoy ... if Wc was a ferrari then i already have that ferrari though i might be a bad driver with time and practice and proper care (not just a few years) i might be half way decent ... who knows i might even find a good instructor to learn from , sometimes you need to have a little faith zepeda =)


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

shaolin_al said:


> haris I just thought of it and feel bad for your situation. There is a local sifu here who offers an international training program through videos and webcam which I think might be your best bet. Here is his website http://awcaonline.com/. I know its never a replacement for in person training but seems like your best option at this point



EDIT thank you that is a very helpful resource i've been looking throught he site and it actually explains sil lim tao very well so far im not going to delve deeper until i think im decent at alt .... in the meanwhile i've been practicing whing chun sil lim tao in three parts every day for three or four days i think ... i think i've improved very slightly you can watch my progress though however little here, this video is from after today's training session:


----------



## tenzen

Again we have to applaud your efforts but there is a lot wrong here still. And I don't mean a lot I mean a whole lot. And your not understanding the sectioning that we were talking about. Forget section 2 and 3 completely. Work on the first section only everyday for the next month and a half at the very least.  I can't correct you on this video because I'm not sure where to begin. Everything was wrong starting with your feet and moving up.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> EDIT thank you that is a very helpful resource i've been looking throught he site and it actually explains sil lim tao very well so far im not going to delve deeper until i think im decent at alt .... in the meanwhile i've been practicing whing chun sil lim tao in three parts every day for three or four days i think ... i think i've improved very slightly you can watch my progress though however little here, this video is from after today's training session:


 
Still needs a lot of work my friend. It's what I expect from someone doing it on their own. Whos' SNT (SLT) are you following? Your opening is terrible, there is so much in just the opening from standing erect to moving and finishing in the Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma stance before you define the centerline (crossing hands at the wrist down and then up is defining centerline, we call sup sau because it looks like the chinese character 10). And even crossing the hands to define centerline is all wrong.

In the Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma stance (first abduction energy stance or goat riding stance), you need to pigeon toe your stance. . . .toes pointed inward, knees abducted inward with 2 fists distance between them, upper body sitting directly over your hips, with the hips tucked inward and upward. Also, elbows are too close to the body when defining the centerline. They need to come out at least one and one half fist distance from your chest (the immoveable elbow distance or position). There's more, but that is even before you start actually doing the hand positions. Too much to point out and correct over the net.


----------



## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> EDIT thank you that is a very helpful resource i've been looking throught he site and it actually explains sil lim tao very well so far im not going to delve deeper until i think im decent at alt .... in the meanwhile i've been practicing whing chun sil lim tao in three parts every day for three or four days i think ... i think i've improved very slightly you can watch my progress though however little here, this video is from after today's training session:



I meant only work on the first section , that's it. 
Stop at the point where you would start the downward palm strikes because that is the start of the second section.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Tut Tut ... i know this is a commitment my friend ... i know your concern here is obviously the proper promotion of wing chun rather than a half assed system that will do more harm than benefit since no one can physically instruct me ... so here it is in simple words , it not for the sake of some sort of recognition i donot want to run a wc school or anything of the sort all i want is to develop this wonderful art as something that is mine , in my head something that cant be taken away... because my flawed nature to hold what i think is dear to me has bitten me in the *** more than once but that doesnt stop me from caring for the things i truly enjoy ... if Wc was a ferrari then i already have that ferrari though i might be a bad driver with time and practice and proper care (not just a few years) i might be half way decent ... who knows i might even find a good instructor to learn from , sometimes you need to have a little faith zepeda =)


 
It's not about whether you want to run a school or not, learning to fight or not, being recognized or not, it's about learning the system (the art) correctly, no matter what you plan to do with it.  

Please don't be offended by what I'm about to say.  I gave up on having faith in people long ago.  And everything you're doing is proving everything I'm saying.  With learning on your own, you won't be even half way decent.  Trust me, I've seen this all too many times before.  You are no exception.  And if you continue, when you do find a Wing Chun instructor, he'll never be able to correct what your doing wrong because it will be too ingrained into your muscle memory, that you will continue to do it wrong even after your sifu corrects you.  I see it all too often.  I'm sorry to say it but it's all too true.


----------



## Eric_H

zepedawingchun said:
			
		

> In the Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma stance (first abduction energy stance or goat riding stance), you need to pigeon toe your stance. . . .toes pointed inward, knees abducted inward with 2 fists distance between them



Zepeda,

I know that some branches of WC practice their YGKYM this way - it's not something I personally believe to be effective, but have seen it done. I would caution telling people without an instructor to do such an extreme stance for the likelyhood of putting too much pressure on the knee in a bad area. I have had several junior training brothers in the past who had knee problems after training that way under a different WC system so I am wary of it.

Just 2c.


----------



## mook jong man

Eric_H said:


> Zepeda,
> 
> I know that some branches of WC practice their YGKYM this way - it's not something I personally believe to be effective, but have seen it done. I would caution telling people without an instructor to do such an extreme stance for the likelyhood of putting too much pressure on the knee in a bad area. I have had several junior training brothers in the past who had knee problems after training that way under a different WC system so I am wary of it.
> 
> Just 2c.



I would say that Zepeda's description of the stance is pretty spot on , in my lineage we don't focus on the adduction bit , we just sink down and relax.
But I just measured the space between my knees while in my stance and indeed it was two fists distance wide .

I know people do get lazy with the stance in relation to the position of the feet , but in my opinion it is imperative that the feet must be pidgeon toed in order to properly focus force to the centreline .

Another thing to consider is that it is a lot faster to get your knee up on the the centreline to jam a kick or launch your own kick when the knee is already pointed towards the centre.
I would argue that any other foot position other than pidgeon toed is a lazy Wing Chun stance or not really Wing Chun at all.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

tenzen said:


> Again we have to applaud your efforts but there is a lot wrong here still. And I don't mean a lot I mean a whole lot. And your not understanding the sectioning that we were talking about. Forget section 2 and 3 completely. Work on the first section only everyday for the next month and a half at the very least.  I can't correct you on this video because I'm not sure where to begin. Everything was wrong starting with your feet and moving up.



one section at a time not all three , bluner on my part Mook has said that twice ... i thinkk i need to stop being childish about this if i am to make this work.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> It's not about whether you want to run a school or not, learning to fight or not, being recognized or not, it's about learning the system (the art) correctly, no matter what you plan to do with it.
> 
> Please don't be offended by what I'm about to say.  I gave up on having faith in people long ago.  And everything you're doing is proving everything I'm saying.  With learning on your own, you won't be even half way decent.  Trust me, I've seen this all too many times before.  You are no exception.  And if you continue, when you do find a Wing Chun instructor, he'll never be able to correct what your doing wrong because it will be too ingrained into your muscle memory, that you will continue to do it wrong even after your sifu corrects you.  I see it all too often.  I'm sorry to say it but it's all too true.



Okay i think i the lineage i am trying to imitate is yip man's , the original since it is his old video that i have been working with mostly ... along with advice on the forum you and mook have been rather helpful along with everyone else ... your point about the toes being pointed inward and the knees being two fists apart is what im gonna try to fix next ... if you have lost faith in people a long time ago then we have one thing in common zepeda ... though the demise of mine was much recent ... i will be honest ... im doing this so that i dont lose faith in myself ... that is also the truth , that is generally the nature of truths they tend to be cold ... But i'll be damned if i let the next truth be a cold one i know it might take a while and i will not let myself turn to steel in the process but i will give it my heart for i know my failures in wc every time they occour thanks to you guys and there is a limit to how many times one can fail but there is no limit to how many things one can learn. 

Edit: upon thinking a little about it , i think its more a question of having faith in the right people than having faith in people in general but enough with my stupid view on people and their reliability for it is a morbid place to go to heh.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> I meant only work on the first section , that's it.
> Stop at the point where you would start the downward palm strikes because that is the start of the second section.



yeah sorry about that mook i feel like an idiot , i did the division in seven step after counting everything but i was stupid enough to keep practicing all three parts. umm okay from today onwards its section 1 only. and i think i might also know what i am missing ... and im pretty sure it has alot to do with trying to perfect too many things at the same time. My bad but i think i have the angles figured out now.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> I would say that Zepeda's description of the stance is pretty spot on , in my lineage we don't focus on the adduction bit , we just sink down and relax.
> But I just measured the space between my knees while in my stance and indeed it was two fists distance wide .
> 
> I know people do get lazy with the stance in relation to the position of the feet , but in my opinion it is imperative that the feet must be pidgeon toed in order to properly focus force to the centreline .
> 
> Another thing to consider is that it is a lot faster to get your knee up on the the centreline to jam a kick or launch your own kick when the knee is already pointed towards the centre.
> I would argue that any other foot position other than pidgeon toed is a lazy Wing Chun stance or not really Wing Chun at all.



Duly noted sir.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Eric_H said:


> Zepeda,
> 
> I know that some branches of WC practice their YGKYM this way - it's not something I personally believe to be effective, but have seen it done. I would caution telling people without an instructor to do such an extreme stance for the likelyhood of putting too much pressure on the knee in a bad area. I have had several junior training brothers in the past who had knee problems after training that way under a different WC system so I am wary of it.
> 
> Just 2c.


 i have strong legs =p


----------



## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> i have strong legs =p



Something that will screw your knees up faster than anything is doing very fast kicks in the air to the point of lock out .
You can practice leg raising as fast as you want , but don't do full power kicks in the air , you will wreck your cartilage as I have done , from doing lots of fast kicks in the air when I was younger.
Save your kicking at full power and speed for when you have a solid target like a human , heavy bag or a kick shield.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Eric_H said:


> Zepeda,
> 
> I know that some branches of WC practice their YGKYM this way - it's not something I personally believe to be effective, but have seen it done. I would caution telling people without an instructor to do such an extreme stance for the likelyhood of putting too much pressure on the knee in a bad area. I have had several junior training brothers in the past who had knee problems after training that way under a different WC system so I am wary of it.
> 
> Just 2c.


 
The stance is not extreme if done correctly (that is the key).  Rule of thumb, if at any time you start having problems with your knees, or your knees start to hurt or ache, then you're doing something wrong. Too much pressure with the abduction, knees bent too much, or toes pointed in too much are the main causes.  Also, putting too much weight on one leg as opposed to the other. That is another reason why you can't learn this without an instructor present to correct, see, and feel whether you're structure (mainly stance) is correct. The YJKYM stance is for building strength in the ligamints, tendons, and muscles in the legs, feet, and buttocks of the lower body. . . . . . not the joints. All that stuff holds the joints together.


----------



## mook jong man

zepedawingchun said:


> The stance is not extreme if done correctly (that is the key).  Rule of thumb, if at any time you start having problems with your knees, or your knees start to hurt or ache, then you're doing something wrong. Too much pressure with the abduction, knees bent too much, or toes pointed in too much are the main causes.  Also, putting too much weight on one leg as opposed to the other. That is another reason why you can't learn this without an instructor present to correct, see, and feel whether you're structure (mainly stance) is correct. The YJKYM stance is for building strength in the ligamints, tendons, and muscles in the legs, feet, and buttocks of the lower body. . . . . . not the joints. All that stuff holds the joints together.



I think another good indicator is whether you can you actually move and kick comfortably whilst in your stance .
You see some people and their knees are that close together that they can't possibly move or kick with any fluidity.
Or their stance is far too wide also hampering their mobility and ability to kick without telegraphing as there is too much weight tranference going on.

While in the stance you should be able to step to all points of the compass or kick fluidly in any direction and still keep your bodyweight centered and non committal.


----------



## tenzen

Just to add on the whole stance bit, to give some here a better understanding of what and why in regards to this stance. The toes are pointed inward like this for a few reasons such as allignment of energy vessels in regards to chi meridians and to help generate power to the center. But the number one main reason is that by pointing your toes to the center and sinking in this manner you are protecting the groin. See wing chun was developed to combat the systems of that time while creating some of the greatest defense possible, almost every chinese martial art has kicks to the groin ygkym makes it close to impossible to get a foot to the nuts.

To eric h, you must have been taught this stance wrong. This stance develops the legs and their muuscles for very powerful kicking. Yip man was well known for his kicking ability, despite most of todays wc focusing more on the hands. Wc is 50/50 on arms and legs. Chi gerk should be practiced just as much if not more than chi sau. The kicks of wc can be very effective if used right, in turn ygkym develops the proper muscles for efficient kicking. This art was developed with the mechanics of the natural body in mind and to preserve the body so it can be practiced into the golden years to its fullest potential. Therefore it is highly likely that you were taught wrong. The videos of yip man that are around the internet were of him performing wing chun perfectly, he was practically on his death bed when that footage was taken, he died shortly after it was taken.


----------



## mook jong man

It's also worth pointing out that the YCKYM , apart from being used to guard the groin and launch rapid kicks along the centreline also has another wonderful use , that of leg locking .

For the benefit of the people that aren't familiar with the leg locking application of the stance , it is basically interlocking your leg with their leg at the shin and sinking your weight down on that leg , it can be used to break their leg at the knee , or if done with less vigour just to force them down to the ground .

This is where the pidgeon toed foot position comes into play , as it used to trap the opponents foot at the ankle , your foot pointed inwards traps the back of his ankle so he has nowhere to go but down.
Best used in situations where the opponent is in a side on stance with a lead leg that is sticking out begging to be attacked.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Alright got it ... incorportating into the drill


----------



## wtxs

mook jong man said:


> It's also worth pointing out that the YCKYM , apart from being used to guard the groin and launch rapid kicks along the centreline also has another wonderful use , that of leg locking .
> 
> *For the benefit of the people that aren't familiar with the leg locking application of the stance* , it is basically interlocking your leg with their leg at the shin and sinking your weight down on that leg , it can be used to break their leg at the knee , or if done with less vigour just to force them down to the ground .





tenzen said:


> Chi gerk should be practiced just as much if not more than chi sau.



An term we use for "Leg locking" is leg trap.

As pointed out by Tenzen, with chi gerk comes leg traps ... just as with chi sao comes hand/arm traps, you can also use your body to effect traps ... but that will be another whole new thread.


----------



## tenzen

A whole new thread indeed.

Faisal don't start incorporating anything but focus on what is actually there. The trap that mook refered to is one of many but you won't learn that from books or videos. Only a qualified instructor.
Focus on the first section for now forget everything else.

To everyone else, we might need to slow down with what we post, I know I have a tendency to get carried away. What I mean is we might be telling him too much and cause even more confusion for him. Talking about chi sau and chi gerk could be too soon and stray him from a strict focus on the first section of slt.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Okay, mook jong man, tenzen, and wtxs, go to your rooms and do your forms 3 times each as punishment for giving out too many of the Wing Chun secrets to untrained forum members.  We can't continue to help the untrained who will not go find a legitimate sifu and help themselves learn this art the correct way.

As for me, I have to wait to go home and then do my forms 3 times each.  No more secrets.


----------



## wtxs

zepedawingchun said:


> Okay, mook jong man, tenzen, and wtxs, *go to your rooms and do your forms 3 times each as punishment for giving out too many of the Wing Chun secrets *to untrained forum members.  We can't continue to help the untrained who will not go find a legitimate sifu and help themselves learn this art the correct way.
> 
> As for me, I have to wait to go home and then do my forms 3 times each. * No more secrets*.



With my super power of levitation, I can do the form standing on an egg and with my eyes closed.  How do I do that?  I'll tell you ... but I'm being punished for given out tooo many secrets. :whip:


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

you guys are funny  ... Its been a busy day ... its 12 am here and i just got home ... had good food and a goood time , i've been rather busy today and i am so full that i tried to do the form but my hand felt too heavy from the exhaustion ... well i guess a day's rest was a good thing  on a side note i actually bong sau'd a paper plate that was thrown at me so feeling pretty good about that .... and now in my uncontrollable exhaustion i will for a few minutes stare at the cieling and then pass out see you guys tomorrow xp


----------



## Eric_H

tenzen said:


> To eric h, you must have been taught this stance wrong. This stance develops the legs and their muuscles for very powerful kicking. Yip man was well known for his kicking ability, despite most of todays wc focusing more on the hands. Wc is 50/50 on arms and legs. Chi gerk should be practiced just as much if not more than chi sau. The kicks of wc can be very effective if used right, in turn ygkym develops the proper muscles for efficient kicking. This art was developed with the mechanics of the natural body in mind and to preserve the body so it can be practiced into the golden years to its fullest potential. Therefore it is highly likely that you were taught wrong. The videos of yip man that are around the internet were of him performing wing chun perfectly, he was practically on his death bed when that footage was taken, he died shortly after it was taken.



Actually no, I was never taught the stance that way. If you will again read my comment I had several people come in under my first teacher who had and who all had knee problems from training that way under a different teacher. Could it be that they were shown incorrectly? Quite so. 

I never said it was not a viable stance or did nothing for you, only cautioned that training any extreme stance without supervision can get your knees jacked, regardless of how "strong" you are.


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## tenzen

Its not about strength at all its bio mechanics and kinetic linking. The stance helps build strength for kicking but you don't need strength to perform it. Maybe you were taught it properly and did something wrong yourself, like tensing up. Or maybe youwere not taught proper footwork from the stance and wound up dragging your steps which will cause knee problems.

Zepeda I have comepleted my 3 forms and then went for some extra credit, the other 3. Do I get an A+?


----------



## zepedawingchun

tenzen said:


> Zepeda I have comepleted my 3 forms and then went for some extra credit, the other 3. Do I get an A+?


 
I believe I wrote, do your forms 3 times each, which meant do all 6 forms 3 times each.


----------



## tenzen

Well so much for extra credit then. Assignment complete. Can I come out of my room now?


----------



## zepedawingchun

tenzen said:


> Well so much for extra credit then. Assignment complete. Can I come out of my room now?


 
Good job.  Personally, I'd stay in my room, it's so much safer.  Or stay on the forum, that way you don't have to worry about having to defend yourself at a moments notice.  But venture out if you must, keep your skills on the razor's edge.


----------



## tenzen

I stay sharper than a set of butterfly knives. I like to venture out, at least to the mailbox past that there's lions and tigers and bears. That's why I'm the last of the lolipop guild.


----------



## zepedawingchun

:lfao:      :bow:


----------



## wtxs

tenzen said:


> Zepeda I have comepleted my 3 forms and then went for some extra credit, the other 3. Do I get an A+?





zepedawingchun said:


> I believe I wrote, do your forms 3 times each, which meant do all 6 forms 3 times each.



Oh stop sucking up already Tenzen.  The A+ is MINE ... cause I can do the forms standing on an egg! :tantrum:


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

i'm living on the edge too , i go to the bakery every day xD 
*whips out light sabre* 
*woon*
*Woon* i'm the the disciplinary guy i know jack about wing chun so you do your froms and i'll watch you , if you faulter however you start losing fingers and no cookies!!! haha


----------



## zepedawingchun

wtxs said:


> Oh stop sucking up already Tenzen. The A+ is MINE ... cause I can do the forms standing on an egg! :tantrum:


 
As long as it's not a hard boiled egg, that I'd like to see.  Can you make a video of it so Haris Lamboo Faisal can try to learn that too?


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> As long as it's not a hard boiled egg, that I'd like to see.  Can you make a video of it so Haris Lamboo Faisal can try to learn that too?


LoL .. i can boil and fry egss using my mind  on the other hand ... is that sarcasm? lol my friend they help and i appreciate it , i truly do , though i suck at making a funny remark im working on it.

EDIT: i made a sig but it isnt showing up here :s


----------



## tenzen

On just one egg? You really do get the A+


----------



## Domino

One thing I noticed from your recent video, remember to breath freely and to relax during SLT, saw a big burst of air


----------



## zepedawingchun

Domino said:


> One thing I noticed from your recent video, remember to breath freely and to relax during SLT, saw a big burst of air


 
Yeah, I thought you were the big bad wolf trying to blow the 3 little pigs' house down.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

I huff and i puff and i siu nim tao =p about to start my training session for today will probably record a bit at the end.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

one thing that is interesting that came to my mind . iwhen i was training parkour  i learnt the value of motivation and my strengths and weaknesses well i think WC is no diffrent , and an interesting debate would be does the type of body a person has define the type of moves that are effective for him in wc or can every move be effective inspite of whatever body type a person may have?


----------



## wtxs

zepedawingchun said:


> As long as it's not a hard boiled egg, that I'd like to see.  Can you make a video of it so Haris Lamboo Faisal can try to learn that too?



You know fair well I can do that ... for fear of being punished AGAIN. :rules::whip1:


----------



## wtxs

tenzen said:


> On just one egg? You really do get the A+



:uhyeah::uhyeah::uhyeah:


----------



## wtxs

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> one thing that is interesting that came to my mind . iwhen i was training parkour  i learnt the value of motivation and my strengths and weaknesses well i think WC is no diffrent , and an interesting debate would be does the type of body a person has define the type of moves that are effective for him in wc or can every move be effective inspite of whatever body type a person may have?



WC is concept base art, can be adapted to all different physical type.  Some or most of technique/movement may look different from person to person.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

okay the video is uploading , i'll try to describe the stance from the legs up, as best i can ... the feet were pidgeon toe'd though they weren't exagerated and the camera angle made them look straight , conversely my knees and legs weren't uncomfortable. Below the torse i had insinuated on my body a pelvic tilt while straightening my spine and head and tucking my chin in. While practicing several times i made sure that in the stance i could easily kick in any direction... i also tried to make sure that my arms never straightened out completely and my shoulders were always relaxed while the elbows did most of the striking / arm movement. Also tried to keep my elbows a little separated from the body. yep thats about it .... the video is  up so  i'm posting the link below.


----------



## tenzen

Still all wrong man. Feet are still not right and too far apart. Your sun fist looks like a moon fist.  Lol. Just wait man. Our words are not helping you. You need a live instructor. There's just way too many mistakes and its impossible for us to correct this for you. 
Did you ever go to the web site I posted for you at the beginning of this thread? I think it would help you immensely.  Still it won't substitute for a live instructor, but for what your trying to do as far as learning on your own its your best option.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

tenzen said:


> Still all wrong man. Feet are still not right and too far apart. Your sun fist looks like a moon fist.  Lol. Just wait man. Our words are not helping you. You need a live instructor. There's just way too many mistakes and its impossible for us to correct this for you.
> Did you ever go to the web site I posted for you at the beginning of this thread? I think it would help you immensely.  Still it won't substitute for a live instructor, but for what your trying to do as far as learning on your own its your best option.



hmm , alrigh i believe it was the wing chun interactive website where they showed hand positions in a flash image of a man standing i got it bookmarked or maybe the other one where they had step by step pictures ..i'm gonna look at the website again and a comparison is in order perhaps. thrice is not how many times i am usually wrong so i guess i need a comparison.


----------



## tenzen

Yes the interactive website will help you. What I was meaning about your fist is that it must be vertical. The way you are doing it is palm up that's not right. Its called a sun fist, so I was making a joke. Its ok the other guys here will get the joke. Anyway, that's going to be your best bet.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

TT ofcourse.  other than that did you find anything major worth pointing out?


----------



## tenzen

Really man all of it. Your entire posture is off. The motions are empty. Hands are too low. There's just way too much.


----------



## Nabakatsu

I am under EBMAS, so, probably not the same lineage, but from that point of view I can offer a few suggestions.
before that though, I can tell just by watching your form, your conscious of things your trying to change and putting a lot of effort and heart into it, I feel like that is half the battle, props to you!
like stated above the stance is a bit too wide, should be shoulder width in line with the heels, although if your really tall and skinny like me, you may want to open the stance just a tiny up more than that. I would put your toes at a 60 degree angle inwards.
In my lineage, the opening double tan to gan sau starts at the chest level, than goes down in a double chopping motion not locked out, but close to it, and than back up to chest. your qwan sau looks pretty decent for not having a live sifu. when you bring your elbows back, in my lineage, you want them pulled behind your nipples, at the height, elbows in line with your shoulders, and we think of it as an elbow strike. it's a good stretch! the fist in your punch should be vertical. the punch starts from your solar plexus area, the elbow follows along the centerline, make sure your stretching to do that! our punch contains many movements, our spine straightens, our fist face is pulled back by our wrist, to create the one inch punch. our shoulder gets pulled back at the end of the punch, all of this is timed to let the energy pass through whatever we happen to be punching. after you punch, from a vertical fist, you open your fingers than turn your palm so it's facing up, than you pull the fingers back as far as you can, trying to touch our forearm, while holding that position we than rotate our hand so the palm would be facing down. while your fingers are still stretching to touch your forearm, you will make a fist, it will point straight down, this is another really good stretch. it than pops up, so you look like your punching like a boxer more or a less, aside from your elbow being aligned to the centerline, than we will execute the one inch punch motion by moving the wrist towards out center, or if it was vertical up. than we turn our entire arm upside down and pull back for an elbow strike. I would just focus on trying to perfect these movements first, before you move on the next. The kind of patience and diligence you will need can be tested here. If you can work on the same 2-5 motions over and over for hours your on the right track.
The thing about all of this is that, when you do eventually find a teacher, your going to have to unlearn EVERYTHING you have learned, and that is really going to set you back, everything you will have done up until that point will have been wasted time, and in fact will make it much harder for you to learn properly your new lineage.
In any event, I can see the hard work your putting in, so you have my respect and best wishes, best of luck to you!


----------



## Domino

zepedawingchun said:


> Yeah, I thought you were the big bad wolf trying to blow the 3 little pigs' house down.


 
Hahaha, 
I'm sure we all used to be the same at one point but it is something entirely different to learn.


----------



## Domino

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> okay the video is uploading , i'll try to describe the stance from the legs up, as best i can ... the feet were pidgeon toe'd though they weren't exagerated and the camera angle made them look straight , conversely my knees and legs weren't uncomfortable. Below the torse i had insinuated on my body a pelvic tilt while straightening my spine and head and tucking my chin in. While practicing several times i made sure that in the stance i could easily kick in any direction... i also tried to make sure that my arms never straightened out completely and my shoulders were always relaxed while the elbows did most of the striking / arm movement. Also tried to keep my elbows a little separated from the body. yep thats about it .... the video is up so i'm posting the link below.


 
Don't tuck your chin in, head up, dont want to damage the neck in SLT although I do tuck when sparring. You're 1st move in SLT needs to be down and forward, always tucking your elbows in, you should be relaxed enough for your elbows to sink, practice standing in WC stance for days.


----------



## zepedawingchun

tenzen said:


> Still all wrong man. Feet are still not right and too far apart. Your sun fist looks like a moon fist. Lol. Just wait man. Our words are not helping you. You need a live instructor. There's just way too many mistakes and its impossible for us to correct this for you.
> Did you ever go to the web site I posted for you at the beginning of this thread? I think it would help you immensely. Still it won't substitute for a live instructor, but for what your trying to do as far as learning on your own its your best option.


 
I second the motion, you need a live instructor.

I guess I'll give you my $80 worth (what I charge for a month's tuition).  One of the problems with your stance is when standing straight up, feet together, and you open to YJKYM, when you finish building your stance, you continue to adjust your feet and stance instead of stopping and staying where you finished.  Once you open, then pigeon toe, you should not move or adjust your feet.  They should be set and stay in that position through out the execution of the form.  So you're not opening to YJKYM correctly.  Like most people, you most likely start with your feet together, touching each other.  That is not correct.  You should start by standing with your feet together, relaxed pointing forward, not touching each other, with a space of about 1 - 2 inches between them, to get the correct spacing. Then open to YJKYM.  Once opened in YJKYM, there should be about two fists (your fists) distance between your knees.  

What I have my students do when first learning and training this stance, is to use a focus pad (which tends to be 2 fists in width) and stick it between their knees (slightly above the knee caps), holding it but not squeezing it, and then do their forms.  If you drop the pad, stop, pick it up, adjust it again, then continue the form where you left off.


----------



## Nabakatsu

Everybody has slightly different methods, that right there should be the biggest wake up call.


----------



## mook jong man

Domino said:


> Don't tuck your chin in, head up, dont want to damage the neck in SLT although I do tuck when sparring. You're 1st move in SLT needs to be down and forward, always tucking your elbows in, you should be relaxed enough for your elbows to sink, practice standing in WC stance for days.



Domino keep your head up straight all the time , your Wu Sau is there to guard your throat .
Keep the vertebrae stacked one on top of the other.
Having your chin in might guard your throat , but it also effectively weakens your overall structure.

You are very vulnerable to being clinched around the neck and having your head pulled down into a knee strike , with your head up straight you will be able to resist the pull and he has to try and pull your whole body in as one unit.


----------



## Nabakatsu

I agree with mook, it was much easier to resist the clench from this position of maintaining straightness of the spine.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> I second the motion, you need a live instructor.
> 
> I guess I'll give you my $80 worth (what I charge for a month's tuition).  One of the problems with your stance is when standing straight up, feet together, and you open to YJKYM, when you finish building your stance, you continue to adjust your feet and stance instead of stopping and staying where you finished.  Once you open, then pigeon toe, you should not move or adjust your feet.  They should be set and stay in that position through out the execution of the form.  So you're not opening to YJKYM correctly.  Like most people, you most likely start with your feet together, touching each other.  That is not correct.  You should start by standing with your feet together, relaxed pointing forward, not touching each other, with a space of about 1 - 2 inches between them, to get the correct spacing. Then open to YJKYM.  Once opened in YJKYM, there should be about two fists (your fists) distance between your knees.
> 
> What I have my students do when first learning and training this stance, is to use a focus pad (which tends to be 2 fists in width) and stick it between their knees (slightly above the knee caps), holding it but not squeezing it, and then do their forms.  If you drop the pad, stop, pick it up, adjust it again, then continue the form where you left off.



Hmm  that certainly clears up one of my misconceptions ... indeed it does feel better when the feet are one or two inches apart... im gonna be careful to check the with two fists distance just above the knees and i'll try to find a corresponding object so i can practice like that meh man i so wish i had a live Wing chun sifu right about now.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> Domino keep your head up straight all the time , your Wu Sau is there to guard your throat .
> Keep the vertebrae stacked one on top of the other.
> Having your chin in might guard your throat , but it also effectively weakens your overall structure.
> 
> You are very vulnerable to being clinched around the neck and having your head pulled down into a knee strike , with your head up straight you will be able to resist the pull and he has to try and pull your whole body in as one unit.



i actually changed from the tucked in chin to the straight chin yesterday while practicing after reading this.


----------



## tenzen

A tucked chin is the least of your worries there faisal.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

tenzen said:


> A tucked chin is the least of your worries there faisal.



I Know! working on it , doing detailed comparisons with a boxing glove wrapped with boxer's wrist straps stuck between my thighs , the master of improvisation aye , thats me haha


----------



## tenzen

Well good luck there bud.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> I Know! working on it , doing detailed comparisons with a boxing glove wrapped with boxer's wrist straps stuck between my thighs , the master of improvisation aye , thats me haha


 
A boxing glove is too soft. You need something hard so you can put a little pressure and get resistance to maintain the muscle tension. But just enough pressure, making sure you don't mash or squeeze too hard. The idea is not that you are crushing what is between your knees, but the position is holding what is between your knees because of the position from your stance. Make sense?


----------



## bully

It's not often I will disagree with you Zep but I used a boxing glove but sideways if you know what I mean and it was just fine.
It was an old glove though and a bit manky and old so maybe had stiffened up a bit....yuck!!
Haris, try holding a broom handle horizontal out in front of you at the same time for strength exercises too.

Fair play for putting yourself up here on the Tube and asking for critism, my novice ego is far to easily bruised for that. I might put that form up when I am sorted back here at home.


----------



## Nabakatsu

I used to use a tennis ball, but our stance aims to be 1-1.5 fists difference between our knees, not 2. That's just another one of the zillion small details that each lineage is going to have. I'd figure out which lineage you are most drawn towards, or that is closest to you, and than stick to that lineage alone, best of luck!


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> A boxing glove is too soft. You need something hard so you can put a little pressure and get resistance to maintain the muscle tension. But just enough pressure, making sure you don't mash or squeeze too hard. The idea is not that you are crushing what is between your knees, but the position is holding what is between your knees because of the position from your stance. Make sense?



hmm i'll try to find something else  maybe something a little sturdier... zepeda what lineage are you and also what lineage has mook studied?


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

bully said:


> It's not often I will disagree with you Zep but I used a boxing glove but sideways if you know what I mean and it was just fine.
> It was an old glove though and a bit manky and old so maybe had stiffened up a bit....yuck!!
> Haris, try holding a broom handle horizontal out in front of you at the same time for strength exercises too.
> 
> Fair play for putting yourself up here on the Tube and asking for critism, my novice ego is far to easily bruised for that. I might put that form up when I am sorted back here at home.



Hmm the broom stick , i should hold it horizontally in me hands? or with my arms? ah well you know ... ego is a small thing to give up in order to learn something ... my ego will have to bear it , not that i liked it much anyway. heh


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Nabakatsu said:


> I used to use a tennis ball, but our stance aims to be 1-1.5 fists difference between our knees, not 2. That's just another one of the zillion small details that each lineage is going to have. I'd figure out which lineage you are most drawn towards, or that is closest to you, and than stick to that lineage alone, best of luck!



hmm with all these online turds who just imitate in videos ,i cant tell what lineage is what .. but i got a book for that , im reading a little bit every day, i've sorta learnt to tell the difference between a faker and someone who has had practiced learning , but im still trying to figure out the lineage , ofcourse  i would wanna ask what lineage are you?


----------



## bully

Hold it with one hand as close to the end as you can horizontally out in front of you when you are in training stance with boxing glove between your knees.

Go for a minute then change hands without getting up out of your stance. Move your hand  further along broom handle to make it easier as you get more tired.

I didnt last long so dont think I am some kind of hard nut ;-)

Enjoy.....I didn't lol.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

ahh that explains it , I was imagining holding it with both hands and then thinking how the hell is this gonna help me LoL... I'm not that hard myself though sometimes i think maybe i should be ... i have a question thats been bothering me ... in YKYJM stance ... after the pelvic tilt if the torso is  supposed to be directly above the hips is is supposed to be vertically erect bove the hips or does it lean slightly to one side like the back or the front? What position should the torso be in?


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## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> ahh that explains it , I was imagining holding it with both hands and then thinking how the hell is this gonna help me LoL... I'm not that hard myself though sometimes i think maybe i should be ... i have a question thats been bothering me ... in YKYJM stance ... after the pelvic tilt if the torso is  supposed to be directly above the hips is is supposed to be vertically erect bove the hips or does it lean slightly to one side like the back or the front? What position should the torso be in?



I think you need to go old school and find a goat to squeeze between your knees , goat probably won't be too thrilled about it though. 

Tilt your pelvis forward and up , but not to the point where your quadriceps muscles tense up , back it off until the thighs relax and the glutes are just slightly firm.

Pull your hands back until your relaxed fists are in line with your chest , push your chest out slightly to open up the shoulders.
Visualise a piece of string vertically pulling up the top of your head , this will lengthen and straighten the spine , I think they call it "sing" if I remember correctly.

Back of shoulders to knees forms straight line called the "Wing Chun slant body" but you don't have to worry about it , what I have already told you should theoretically enable you to produce good posture if you follow it properly.
I am TST lineage.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> I think you need to go old school and find a goat to squeeze between your knees , goat probably won't be too thrilled about it though.
> 
> Tilt your pelvis forward and up , but not to the point where your quadriceps muscles tense up , back it off until the thighs relax and the glutes are just slightly firm.
> 
> Pull your hands back until your relaxed fists are in line with your chest , push your chest out slightly to open up the shoulders.
> Visualise a piece of string vertically pulling up the top of your head , this will lengthen and straighten the spine , I think they call it "sing" if I remember correctly.
> 
> Back of shoulders to knees forms straight line called the "Wing Chun slant body" but you don't have to worry about it , what I have already told you should theoretically enable you to produce good posture if you follow it properly.
> I am TST lineage.



Ahh thank you ... another missing link to the puzzle appears , So i have to practice two things now:
1. achieve the wing chun slant body.
2. Maintain it during the the first part of the form.

Hmm well i've got about 4 hours to go till i need to get to work so i think i'll get about practicin' ... I was actually reasearching this for an hour or so but this explanation helps alot! and i guess theoretically it also makes sense that the body should be very slightly tilted forward since it would probably make deflecting a strong force alot easier by acting as a buffer space and well i guess the forward tilt also somehow helps absorb a shock better than an erect stance am i wrong? Most importantly , i assure you that no goats will be harmed in the making of my next SLT first part Video haha.  TST would stand for Tsui shong Tin if i remember correctly?


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## wtxs

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Ahh thank you ... another missing link to the puzzle appears , So i have to practice two things now:
> 1. achieve the wing chun slant body.
> 2. Maintain it during the the first part of the form.



Maintain it all through and through out the form.:whip:


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## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Ahh thank you ... another missing link to the puzzle appears , So i have to practice two things now:
> _*1. achieve the wing chun slant body.
> 2. Maintain it during the the first part of the form.*_
> 
> Hmm well i've got about 4 hours to go till i need to get to work so i think i'll get about practicin' ... I was actually reasearching this for an hour or so but this explanation helps alot! and i guess theoretically it also makes sense that the body should be very slightly tilted forward since it would probably make deflecting a strong force alot easier by acting as a buffer space and well i guess the forward tilt also somehow helps absorb a shock better than an erect stance am i wrong? Most importantly , i assure you that no goats will be harmed in the making of my next SLT first part Video haha.  _*TST would stand for Tsui shong Tin if i remember correctly?*_



Just make sure you don't go overboard and start leaning back , pay attention to the pressure that is felt on the soles of your feet , they will tell you if you are on the right track or not without even having to look in a mirror.

Pressure towards the front of the foot means you are leaning forward or sunk too far down in your stance.
Pressure towards the heels means you are leaning back or standing up too high in your stance. 

You want to have a feeling of the weight being distrubuted evenly over the entire surface area of the foot.

There are a number of reasons for the pelvic tilt which produces the slant body effect , main ones being it locks the upper and lower body into one unified mass , and it straightens the spine so that outside force can be taken and  transmitted down the skeletal system in a straight line down to the knees and feet which neutralise the force by acting as shock absorbers .
Anything other than a straight spine would mean a weak structure just like a plastic ruler with a bend in it .

If we rest a plastic ruler vertically on a table and put pressure on the end , then as long as the ruler is kept straight it will have great resilience , once we put a bend somewhere along the ruler it will start to lose structural integrity until it eventually snaps.

Yes TST is Tsui Seung Tin sometimes spelled Chu Shong Tin.


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## Nabakatsu

Haris, I am in EBMAS, Emin Boztepes Martial Art System.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> Just make sure you don't go overboard and start leaning back , pay attention to the pressure that is felt on the soles of your feet , they will tell you if you are on the right track or not without even having to look in a mirror.
> 
> Pressure towards the front of the foot means you are leaning forward or sunk too far down in your stance.
> Pressure towards the heels means you are leaning back or standing up too high in your stance.
> 
> You want to have a feeling of the weight being distrubuted evenly over the entire surface area of the foot.
> 
> There are a number of reasons for the pelvic tilt which produces the slant body effect , main ones being it locks the upper and lower body into one unified mass , and it straightens the spine so that outside force can be taken and  transmitted down the skeletal system in a straight line down to the knees and feet which neutralise the force by acting as shock absorbers .
> Anything other than a straight spine would mean a weak structure just like a plastic ruler with a bend in it .
> 
> If we rest a plastic ruler vertically on a table and put pressure on the end , then as long as the ruler is kept straight it will have great resilience , once we put a bend somewhere along the ruler it will start to lose structural integrity until it eventually snaps.
> 
> Yes TST is Tsui Seung Tin sometimes spelled Chu Shong Tin.



Well Mook i gave it a shot ... and i made sure to focus on the weight distribution , unification of the body and making sure my head stays up as if being pulled up by a string. When i looked at it in the mirror from the side angle i stood sorta leaning forward but very slightly and though i try to keep my chin up , i must admit i tuck it in some times. Also made sure i focus on my feet and try to balance out the pressure so it is evenly distributed. Having the critique of people who have obviously been practicing WC for more than 10-15 years and whose knowledge on the matters at hand is far greater than mine is sometimes a strain on the analytical mind , Don't get me wrong i completely appreciate and am grateful for you guys sharing your knowledge , So here goes my attempt or rather what i've been practicing on day 11 , 1 week and 4 days. And i can't sleep so i guess i'll be online for a while hopefully you guys are online because im rolling in the dark here.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

wtxs said:


> Maintain it all through and through out the form.:whip:



I lol'd so hard at the smiley btw wtxs , what was your lineage?


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Nabakatsu said:


> Haris, I am in EBMAS, Emin Boztepes Martial Art System.



Ahh yes , though i can't say i'm well versed enough in the art to idetify by sight what the difference between emin boztepe and TST and the rest , i actaully read about your lineage when i was researching WC lineages , thats Really cool man


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## tenzen

Its the headless wing chuns man. Your getting better man but most of it was cut out from the camera angle. If you were trying to show us your posture you should have done it sideways in the camera not straight on. Its hard to see that way.


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## wtxs

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> I lol'd so hard at the smiley btw wtxs , what was your lineage?



Be no mistaken about it, lineage is not the determining factor of how good an WC practician you are, it's how much hard work you put into it (notice I didn't mention time ... as in years).  Just concentrate on what is available to you ... now _GETTT_ off of the computer and go put in some sweat time already. :soapbox:

The long winded answer is ... I don't know my pedigree, so I can claim being one of the many bastard sons of WC.  If I have to give it an guess, I might be some how loosely related to the Cho Gar line of Mr. CWK on this forum.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

tenzen said:


> Its the headless wing chuns man. Your getting better man but most of it was cut out from the camera angle. If you were trying to show us your posture you should have done it sideways in the camera not straight on. Its hard to see that way.



LoL now all i need is my horse and i shall ride into the night of sleepy hollow and collect heads!!!  muhaha (evil laughter ensues), didn't have anyone to hold the camera at 4 a.m hence 'headless' and didnt wanna move the camera phone too far away or nothing woulda been visible. DoH side angle would show it better ofcourse!


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

wtxs said:


> Be no mistaken about it, lineage is not the determining factor of how good an WC practician you are, it's how much hard work you put into it (notice I didn't mention time ... as in years).  Just concentrate on what is available to you ... now _GETTT_ off of the computer and go put in some sweat time already. :soapbox:
> 
> The long winded answer is ... I don't know my pedigree, so I can claim being one of the many bastard sons of WC.  If I have to give it an guess, I might be some how loosely related to the Cho Gar line of Mr. CWK on this forum.




Hard work , break a sweat you say man i wish i could show you my shirt right now , it was so damp a short while ago that it felt like my room was a rainforest lol,  it is selfish to mention time and i agree with you and i dont care much for lineages though i just recently found out about the four and then they branch off too so i was curious. =)


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## tenzen

Damn the horse, you need to learn to ride the goat. Then collect heads with your feared chain punch.


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> hmm i'll try to find something else maybe something a little sturdier... zepeda what lineage are you and also what lineage has mook studied?


 
Zepeda - Sifu Francis Fong -  SiGung Jiu Wan - SiGung Chan Mim - SiGung Chan Wah Shun


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Hmm aight thanks though i havent found any videos of him online i have read about him a little researching lineages.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

I finally got around to recording a side view of the SNT and i hope its shows the tilt of my stance well and you guys are welcome to criticise it also i think i will upload a front view of the first part of sil lim tao to make for easeir viewing 

here are the links:
 SNT section 1 front view





 SNT section 1 side view


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## tenzen

Point your toes more inward. Tilt your pelvis more and sink into your stance. Also you fook sau is a little on the high side now. Instead of the center of your chest align with your solar plexus. But for what its worth your starting to get a little better.


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## yak sao

I have to agree....it is looking better.

Turn feet inward to form 60 degree angle.

Sink down by bending your knees....do not let your knees go past your toes.

A good check point for posture is to put your back to the wall with heels against the baseboard...heels, hips and shoulders should all touch wall.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Was doing SLT then chain punches until my knuckles couldn't take it , now SLT again.


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## zepedawingchun

One other thing, your elbow position when you form your downward X at the beginning of the form, is too close to your body. It should be at the fixed elbow position (immoveable elbow) of about 6 to 7 inches from your chest (fist and a half distance from the chest). Too close to your body and you never learn how to maintain the space needed to protect the area between your elbows forward and your body. That space is used as a buffer to understand when you need to shift, re-direct, or deflect any contact that is too overpowering.  At least in our lineage.  I wouldn't think it is any different in any other lines because they should know, use and understand the immoveable elbow position too.


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Was doing SLT then chain punches until my knuckles couldn't take it , now SLT again.


 
What were you doing that caused your knuckles to hurt while doing chain punching (lin wan choi)?


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> What were you doing that caused your knuckles to hurt while doing chain punching (lin wan choi)?



Well i have punching bag and i started off doing it the air but then i got into the feel of it and it seemed like it was getting easier after a few punches so i started speeding up on the punching bag making sure i retract the punch all the way back , i did around five seven and a half minute rounds of this and thats probably what caused them to hurt. Constantly punching the bag heh.

Crap i completely forgot about the immovable elbow position. Doh


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Also i want to add that i feel a particular muscle developing right beneath my shoulder on my back i can make it tense or relaxed but it is not that prominent right now i felt it after the punching practice today


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## tenzen

Those are your lats. People who practice an art where you punch a lot develop them well. They are your wings so to speak. Bruce lee had huge lats.


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## yak sao

While on the subject of punching.....in our lineage, we don't so much pull the punching hand back as much as relax the tricep, which brings the fist back to the elbow of the other arm. If you pull the fist back you are engaging the bicep, which would make it easier for your opponent to crash through your wu sau.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Hmm the less time given away the better , i agree.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

okay i just wanna know , if i think that i'm not makingf mistakes anymore , should i move on to the next part whilw drilling the old one?


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## yak sao

The beauty of WC, is it never stops...it's a continuous cycle as its name implies. Don't ever become satisfied with "good enough". Always seek to improve.
In the beginning you will see gross, dramatic improvements, but as you progress, the improvements are more subtle...but still forge ahead....

OK, down off my soap box.....to answer your question, sure, what the hell


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

yak sao said:


> The beauty of WC, is it never stops...it's a continuous cycle as its name implies. Don't ever become satisfied with "good enough". Always seek to improve.
> In the beginning you will see gross, dramatic improvements, but as you progress, the improvements are more subtle...but still forge ahead....
> 
> OK, down off my soap box.....to answer your question, sure, what the hell



*Bounces up and down* WOOT!!!111!!11one ....Alright i get what you're saying i know my Section 1 has weaknesses so i'm not gonna do section 2 without doing section 1 first , gonna try to always learn and i'm happy i'm not the one part virgin anymore hehehehe


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> *Bounces up and down* WOOT!!!111!!11one ....Alright i get what you're saying i know my Section 1 has weaknesses so i'm not gonna do section 2 without doing section 1 first , gonna try to always learn and i'm happy i'm not the one part virgin anymore hehehehe


 
How long have you been doing the first set of SNT? 2 - 3 weeks? Continue to do the first set. . . . . . for 6 months. Traditionally, the sets were done 1 at a time for 4 months before going to the next set, and it was added to the other set(s) . The reason I say 6 months is because you don't have a sifu directly training you, you need to work extra hard at it. So 2 extra months over the normal length of time before moving to the next set should be just about right. 

See, already, he's wanting to go to something more advanced and doesn't even have the first set of SNT perfect. You need to *take your time*. The beauty in the journey is not the arrival, but the trek to where you are going.

P.S.  Wow, I just noticed, I'm a Black Belt in martialtalk! ! !  When did that happen?  Just like everything else I do, I just work at whatever needs to be done and poof, next thing I know, I've arrived.  But, Black Belt only means I've gotten past beginner stage, now time to work harder and climb the ladder.


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## yak sao

Congrats on the Black Belt.

Hey everybody...part at zepedawingchun's house!


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## wtxs

zepedawingchun said:


> Black Belt only means I've gotten past beginner stage, now time to work harder and climb the ladder.



Learning is an never ending cycle, after you have an grasp of the basic, now you have to learn to understand and how to apply it.

Black belt means you had gotten pass the 1st level, now you are an white belt in the 2nd level ... now get to work already.


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## tenzen

Yeah hurry up and get to work... slacker.

Congrats man.


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## yak sao

yak sao said:


> Congrats on the Black Belt.
> 
> Hey everybody...part at zepedawingchun's house!


 

Damn,,,,that was supposed to say *party* at zepeda's house....just goes to show, even black belts make mistakes


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## Nabakatsu

Grats! now when I scroll down the threads every other belt is black! definitely messing up my eyes, lol!


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> How long have you been doing the first set of SNT? 2 - 3 weeks? Continue to do the first set. . . . . . for 6 months. Traditionally, the sets were done 1 at a time for 4 months before going to the next set, and it was added to the other set(s) . The reason I say 6 months is because you don't have a sifu directly training you, you need to work extra hard at it. So 2 extra months over the normal length of time before moving to the next set should be just about right.
> 
> See, already, he's wanting to go to something more advanced and doesn't even have the first set of SNT perfect. You need to *take your time*. The beauty in the journey is not the arrival, but the trek to where you are going.
> 
> P.S.  Wow, I just noticed, I'm a Black Belt in martialtalk! ! !  When did that happen?  Just like everything else I do, I just work at whatever needs to be done and poof, next thing I know, I've arrived.  But, Black Belt only means I've gotten past beginner stage, now time to work harder and climb the ladder.




Grats on the black belt Mr Z ...I am very much enjoying the journey .... Infact i think the journey has been more amazing than my last girlfriend lol Zepeda if you think i shouldn't do part 2 yet then i won't , but is there any other drill i could do along with section 1? apart from chain punches or the broomstick drill that bully told me about? Im gonna make another video after my practice session tonight which im supposed to start in about 45 minutes.


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## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Grats on the black belt Mr Z ...I am very much enjoying the journey .... Infact i think the journey has been more amazing than my last girlfriend lol Zepeda if you think i shouldn't do part 2 yet then i won't , but is there any other drill i could do along with section 1? apart from chain punches or the broomstick drill that bully told me about? Im gonna make another video after my practice session tonight which im supposed to start in about 45 minutes.



From your stance put your guard up , then raise your leg maintaining the same angle of the leg from your stance.
 As you raise your leg  pivot your support foot so as to keep balance , make sure your knee is on the centreline and your toes pulled back.

Try to get your knee up high enough to meet your guard so that there is no gap between knee and guard.
Stay balanced and hold the position as long as you can then do the same on the other side .
We call this full guard or hanging horse stance .


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> From your stance put your guard up , then raise your leg maintaining the same angle of the leg from your stance.
> As you raise your leg  pivot your support foot so as to keep balance , make sure your knee is on the centreline and your toes pulled back.
> 
> Try to get your knee up high enough to meet your guard so that there is no gap between knee and guard.
> Stay balanced and hold the position as long as you can then do the same on the other side .
> We call this full guard or hanging horse stance .




Was taking a five minute break from practice when i noticed this. Wow , thanks, Mook


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Grats on the black belt Mr Z ...I am very much enjoying the journey .... Infact i think the journey has been more amazing than my last girlfriend lol Zepeda if you think i shouldn't do part 2 yet then i won't , but is there any other drill i could do along with section 1? apart from chain punches or the broomstick drill that bully told me about? Im gonna make another video after my practice session tonight which im supposed to start in about 45 minutes.


 
The first things I teach beginning students is Siu Nim Tao (also the name of the first 3rd of of Siu Nim Tao).  Along with that, I teach yut chi kuen (basic punch), tan sau (dispersing hand), and then tan da (combination dispersing hand and punch).

*Warning: Please read carefully, this is important and if not done correctly will screw up everything beyond this point.*

So from YJKYM, after a punch, making sure the rear hand is at the punching hand's elbow position, 
1. Leaving the hands where they were after the punch, on the centerline, 
2. The rear hand, or wu sao (guarding hand) comes forward with the palm up in a slow motion (to become tan sao), over the punching hand, with the fingers pointed straight forward on the centerline.  (some people call tan sao beggers hand because it looks like you are begging for money).  As you gain experience, it can be speeded up.  
3. As the fingers of the tan sao sliding forward reach the leading hand's wrist, the leading hand *RETRACTS UNDER* the tan sao and becomes wu sao at the elbow.  
4. The tan sao continues forward but then stops when the elbow reaches the immoveable elbow position.  You've just execute a tan sao.  
5. Now then, you repeat these movements from #1 - 5 for each wu sao to become tan sao.  

Do 108 tan sao's then change up to 108 punches, followed by 108 tan sao's, etc. until you've reached 1,062 movements (or 9 set of 108).  Then start all over again.  Do this everyday at least twice a day for 3 days.  Then you may be ready for tan da.

The punch and tan sao must become natural for you to do without hesitation. If you have a mook yan jong, you can do this with it, standing in front of it in YJKYM, in the center.  The tan sao's can be exected against the arms (your left hand sliding up, inside the left arm when facing the jong, of the dummy, your right arm sliding up inside the jong's right arm.  Do this for both the punch and the tan sao.  Execute slowly and precisely, making sure your elbow stays positioned on the centerline, stopping at the immoveable elbow position.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> The first things I teach beginning students is Siu Nim Tao (also the name of the first 3rd of of Siu Nim Tao).  Along with that, I teach yut chi kuen (basic punch), tan sau (dispersing hand), and then tan da (combination dispersing hand and punch).
> 
> *Warning: Please read carefully, this is important and if not done correctly will screw up everything beyond this point.*
> 
> So from YJKYM, after a punch, making sure the rear hand is at the punching hand's elbow position,
> 1. Leaving the hands where they were after the punch, on the centerline,
> 2. The rear hand, or wu sao (guarding hand) comes forward with the palm up in a slow motion (to become tan sao), over the punching hand, with the fingers pointed straight forward on the centerline.  (some people call tan sao beggers hand because it looks like you are begging for money).  As you gain experience, it can be speeded up.
> 3. As the fingers of the tan sao sliding forward reach the leading hand's wrist, the leading hand *RETRACTS UNDER* the tan sao and becomes wu sao at the elbow.
> 4. The tan sao continues forward but then stops when the elbow reaches the immoveable elbow position.  You've just execute a tan sao.
> 5. Now then, you repeat these movements from #1 - 5 for each wu sao to become tan sao.
> 
> Do 108 tan sao's then change up to 108 punches, followed by 108 tan sao's, etc. until you've reached 1,062 movements (or 9 set of 108).  Then start all over again.  Do this everyday at least twice a day for 3 days.  Then you may be ready for tan da.
> 
> The punch and tan sao must become natural for you to do without hesitation. If you have a mook yan jong, you can do this with it, standing in front of it in YJKYM, in the center.  The tan sao's can be exected against the arms (your left hand sliding up, inside the left arm when facing the jong, of the dummy, your right arm sliding up inside the jong's right arm.  Do this for both the punch and the tan sao.  Execute slowly and precisely, making sure your elbow stays positioned on the centerline, stopping at the immoveable elbow position.



Wow another amazing drill ,  thank you so much for this Z , i couldnt get to read this yesterday because my ****** interenet company crashed and currently using my neighbour's pc to write this , thanks Again , my practice session starts soon again 

won't be able to upload a video today unfortunately because of the interenet dilemma.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Hmm ... yesterday's session went well ... i tried to execute both the excercises as best i could but it was my first attempt , gonna do it again tonight and gonna make a video of it, gonna make sure i do the proper horse sance and proper tansao excercise , gonna start training in about ten minutes thanks guys , you've been really supportive and inspirational. Reminds me of something i saw in a rocky movie and i quote. 

"Its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward , Its not about pointing fingers and saying you couldn't do something because of him or her! Its about getting back up when you world knocks you down on your knees and tries to keep you there permanently" Sylvester stallone , i'll give it my best again today.


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## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Hmm ... yesterday's session went well ... i tried to execute both the excercises as best i could but it was my first attempt , gonna do it again tonight and gonna make a video of it, gonna make sure i do the proper horse sance and proper tansao excercise , gonna start training in about ten minutes thanks guys , you've been really supportive and inspirational. Reminds me of something i saw in a rocky movie and i quote.
> 
> "Its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward , Its not about pointing fingers and saying you couldn't do something because of him or her! Its about getting back up when you world knocks you down on your knees and tries to keep you there permanently" Sylvester stallone , i'll give it my best again today.



Take it easy mate , you are going to burn yourself out.
The one I gave you is just a balance exercise for kicking and leg jamming , do too much too soon and you will end up with sore hip flexors.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

spent quite some time falling flat on my *** the day before yesterday lol. Then i got the hang of it though ... You're right , i need to take it easy sometimes. My body Felt exhausted today so i didn't do anything , Had barbeque and soaked up some nice weather, A quiet relaxing day =D


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## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> spent quite some time falling flat on my *** the day before yesterday lol. Then i got the hang of it though ... You're right , i need to take it easy sometimes. My body Felt exhausted today so i didn't do anything , Had barbeque and soaked up some nice weather, A quiet relaxing day =D



When you are able to stand on one leg and have someone apply external pressure on you and you can still maintain your balance and stance then you know your on the right track.

But in regards to everyday training , you are not a machine , sometimes mentally and physically you need the rest.

I endeavour to do my three empty hand forms everday , but more often than not I might only end up doing the first one , but that is ok because I will put my full concentration into that form.

I remember my Sifu saying don't do the form when you are tired , because it will probably do more harm than good as you will probably just rush through it without concentrating properly just to get the thing over and done with .


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

The hanging horse stance feels comfortable but i have a question Mr.mook ... when im expecting pressure do i lean into it or do i absorb it in the regular one legged stance standing straight up and i've found that a certain amount of pressure will almost always knock me over.

Secondly the tan sau technique that Mr.Z mentioned Well i did the tan sau and i read up a little on applications , on how it can be used to intercept and then turned into an attack ...like a palm strike / punch / chop is there anything i'm missing about the tan sau? Also i made a video of it but i forgot to record while doing it on my mook jong... anyway here's the link.


----------



## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> The hanging horse stance feels comfortable but i have a question Mr.mook ... when im expecting pressure do i lean into it or do i absorb it in the regular one legged stance standing straight up and i've found that a certain amount of pressure will almost always knock me over.
> 
> Secondly the tan sau technique that Mr.Z mentioned Well i did the tan sau and i read up a little on applications , on how it can be used to intercept and then turned into an attack ...like a palm strike / punch / chop is there anything i'm missing about the tan sau? Also i made a video of it but i forgot to record while doing it on my mook jong... anyway here's the link.



At your level don't even think about about standing on one leg and trying to absorb force.
Just use the hanging horse stance as a balance exercise .

A good stance exercise for you would be the "Palm to palm exercise" measure out your stance and sink your weight , hold both your hands up.

Get your partner to place both his palms against both of yours and exert some force , stay perfectly upright and try to absorb his force down into your stance .
*Don't lean , never lean *, leaning can be taken advantage of , he could latch your arm down and pull you into a elbow strike etc.


If you find that you are leaning and you probably will , get your partner to suddenly take his hands away randomly or when he detects you leaning. 

You will soon find out if you are leaning or not because your weight will drop forward , him suddenly taking his force away should theoretically have no effect on your stance whatsoever

I would not worry about the Tan Sau , I would concentrate on the stance .
There is a high danger of incorrect application because you don't have a live teacher with you to supervise.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> At your level don't even think about about standing on one leg and trying to absorb force.
> Just use the hanging horse stance as a balance exercise .
> 
> A good stance exercise for you would be the "Palm to palm exercise" measure out your stance and sink your weight , hold both your hands up.
> 
> Get your partner to place both his palms against both of yours and exert some force , stay perfectly upright and try to absorb his force down into your stance .
> *Don't lean , never lean *, leaning can be taken advantage of , he could latch your arm down and pull you into a elbow strike etc.
> 
> 
> If you find that you are leaning and you probably will , get your partner to suddenly take his hands away randomly or when he detects you leaning.
> 
> You will soon find out if you are leaning or not because your weight will drop forward , him suddenly taking his force away should theoretically have no effect on your stance whatsoever
> 
> I would not worry about the Tan Sau , I would concentrate on the stance .
> There is a high danger of incorrect application because you don't have a live teacher with you to supervise.



The form and stance had been on my mind for a while.


----------



## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> The form and stance had been on my mind for a while.



I had my first lesson in June of 1989 and it's been on my mind ever since.


----------



## wtxs

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeLR-PA5dbg[/URL]



Just curious ... can you explain the reasoning behind your Tan Sao being at such extreme angle?


----------



## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> The hanging horse stance feels comfortable but i have a question Mr.mook ... when im expecting pressure do i lean into it or do i absorb it in the regular one legged stance standing straight up and i've found that a certain amount of pressure will almost always knock me over.
> 
> Secondly the tan sau technique that Mr.Z mentioned Well i did the tan sau and i read up a little on applications , on how it can be used to intercept and then turned into an attack ...like a palm strike / punch / chop is there anything i'm missing about the tan sau? Also i made a video of it but i forgot to record while doing it on my mook jong... anyway here's the link.



I just watched your video , get that thumb tucked in mate or it's liable to get broken by the first punch that happens to come down your centreline.

Just in solo practice drive them out at about solar plexus height , but realise that in actual application depending on the height of the opponent you will probably  have to do it higher.

But overall not too shabby for a bloke that's  learning off videos , I've certainly seen worse , and they were in a school
The applications of Tan Sau are endless , I'm sure there's quite a few I haven't seen before.

In our lineage they are mainly used to redirect a straight punch , one example is we might intercept on the outside of his wrist with the pinky side of our Tan Sau and strike straight through with our fingers to his throat , or curl the fingers up and change it to a punch , or my favourite a spade hand palm strike to the neck.

But if the position of the incoming punch dictates then we can just as easily go up the inside and strike from there.

At the end of the day it is just a tool to redirect force and at the same time invade the space of the opponent , once it has done it's job you can put whatever strike on the end of it that your little heart desires.


----------



## mook jong man

wtxs said:


> Just curious ... can you explain the reasoning behind your Tan Sao being at such extreme angle?



He's training to fight Kareem Abdul Jabbar. :lol:


----------



## OzPaul

Kareem could play ball... Sydney Kings suck balls...... Sorry Mook!


----------



## mook jong man

OzPaul said:


> Kareem could play ball... Sydney Kings suck balls...... Sorry Mook!



I wouldn't know mate , I prefer to watch the netball .  :wink:


----------



## OzPaul

mook jong man said:


> I wouldn't know mate , I prefer to watch the netball .  :wink:


Made my day/night!


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

wtxs said:


> Just curious ... can you explain the reasoning behind your Tan Sao being at such extreme angle?





mook jong man said:


> He's training to fight Kareem Abdul Jabbar. :lol:




hahaha , well sorta , i always imagine my opp to be taller than me and i haven't found any problems adjusting the opps height in my mind or physically , would there be a problem with a high tan?


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> I just watched your video , get that thumb tucked in mate or it's liable to get broken by the first punch that happens to come down your centreline.
> 
> Just in solo practice drive them out at about solar plexus height , but realise that in actual application depending on the height of the opponent you will probably  have to do it higher.
> 
> But overall not too shabby for a bloke that's  learning off videos , I've certainly seen worse , and they were in a school
> The applications of Tan Sau are endless , I'm sure there's quite a few I haven't seen before.
> 
> In our lineage they are mainly used to redirect a straight punch , one example is we might intercept on the outside of his wrist with the pinky side of our Tan Sau and strike straight through with our fingers to his throat , or curl the fingers up and change it to a punch , or my favourite a spade hand palm strike to the neck.
> 
> But if the position of the incoming punch dictates then we can just as easily go up the inside and strike from there.
> 
> At the end of the day it is just a tool to redirect force and at the same time invade the space of the opponent , once it has done it's job you can put whatever strike on the end of it that your little heart desires.



Oh Don't overestimate me , i'm just a student who wants to learn , Thanks for the explanation Mr Mook truly when i thought about it, it was shocking how many things could be done with a tan sau.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Secondly the tan sau technique that Mr.Z mentioned Well i did the tan sau and i read up a little on applications , on how it can be used to intercept and then turned into an attack ...like a palm strike / punch / chop is there anything i'm missing about the tan sau? Also i made a video of it but i forgot to record while doing it on my mook jong... anyway here's the link.


 
Okay, let's fix a couple of things.  

First, while doing the exercise, *SLOW DOWN*!  Do not do it fast.  The way you were doing it initially is okay.  Speed is not the issue, correct execution of the hand position is the most important part.  Speed comes later, after you have done thousands of repetitions of the movement and it is almost second nature.

Second, when performing tan sao, drive or push the motion with your elbow, not with your hand.  The fingers should be straight, but not rigid, with the thumb up against the side of the hand. 

Third, some lineages bend the wrist and lay the hand flat, like what you have illustrated.  I (we) do not.  There are several different reasons, but the main one is so the energy flowing from the elbow to the finger tips has a straight line of travel.  That also allows you to push the position with your elbow and not pull it along with your hand.  So straighten the wrist so the energy will flow down (up) the arm to the hand and has a straight path out the finger tips.  However, the hand should be relaxed.

Fourth, once you have finished the hand position, with your fingers together but not forced, the centerline should run down through your middle finger, through the middle of your wrist, with it visually skimming along the edge of the elbow.  If not, then you need to correct this.  You can also check this by taking a stick, or any long, straight, object of about 3 feet long, place it on the center of your chest, making sure it travels straight forward and resting the other end on your middle finger.  Looking down the stick, imagining it as your centerline, you should see that it covers your middle finger, the center of your wrist, and the inside edge of your elbow visually is in line with the centerline.

Fifth, the height of the tan sao hand should be as follows:  looking at yourself face to face in a mirror, the finger tips should be no higher than your upper lip, the bottom of your elbow no further down than your diaphram (covering your diaphram to protect it), as you maintain the immoveable elbow position.  So the tan sao (forearm with hand) should be angling upward towards your opponents face.  When looking at your image in the mirror, your hand should block the view of your lips and chin.  This is important, because when using it on an opponeent, it should do the same thing when face to face to them, block your view of their lips and chin.  In that respect, the height of a tan sao adapts and changes with the height of your opponent.

So you should do this exercise in front of a mirror to make sure the movements are executed correctly, ie, correct height, angled upwards, fingers, hands, forearms in line with the center line.

Don't worry about using the tan or trying to apply it as of yet.  It is important to push the movement with your elbow so when it actually makes contact with an opponent, the motion will continue as needed to the immoveable elbow position (but don jarn), instead of stopping with any contact.

Work on that, for a couple of days, then video it and submit it again and lets see how it goes.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> Okay, let's fix a couple of things.
> 
> First, while doing the exercise, *SLOW DOWN*!  Do not do it fast.  The way you were doing it initially is okay.  Speed is not the issue, correct execution of the hand position is the most important part.  Speed comes later, after you have done thousands of repetitions of the movement and it is almost second nature.
> 
> Second, when performing tan sao, drive or push the motion with your elbow, not with your hand.  The fingers should be straight, but not rigid, with the thumb up against the side of the hand.
> 
> Third, some lineages bend the wrist and lay the hand flat, like what you have illustrated.  I (we) do not.  There are several different reasons, but the main one is so the energy flowing from the elbow to the finger tips has a straight line of travel.  That also allows you to push the position with your elbow and not pull it along with your hand.  So straighten the wrist so the energy will flow down (up) the arm to the hand and has a straight path out the finger tips.  However, the hand should be relaxed.
> 
> Fourth, once you have finished the hand position, with your fingers together but not forced, the centerline should run down through your middle finger, through the middle of your wrist, with it visually skimming along the edge of the elbow.  If not, then you need to correct this.  You can also check this by taking a stick, or any long, straight, object of about 3 feet long, place it on the center of your chest, making sure it travels straight forward and resting the other end on your middle finger.  Looking down the stick, imagining it as your centerline, you should see that it covers your middle finger, the center of your wrist, and the inside edge of your elbow visually is in line with the centerline.
> 
> Fifth, the height of the tan sao hand should be as follows:  looking at yourself face to face in a mirror, the finger tips should be no higher than your upper lip, the bottom of your elbow no further down than your diaphram (covering your diaphram to protect it), as you maintain the immoveable elbow position.  So the tan sao (forearm with hand) should be angling upward towards your opponents face.  When looking at your image in the mirror, your hand should block the view of your lips and chin.  This is important, because when using it on an opponeent, it should do the same thing when face to face to them, block your view of their lips and chin.  In that respect, the height of a tan sao adapts and changes with the height of your opponent.
> 
> So you should do this exercise in front of a mirror to make sure the movements are executed correctly, ie, correct height, angled upwards, fingers, hands, forearms in line with the center line.
> 
> Don't worry about using the tan or trying to apply it as of yet.  It is important to push the movement with your elbow so when it actually makes contact with an opponent, the motion will continue as needed to the immoveable elbow position (but don jarn), instead of stopping with any contact.
> 
> Work on that, for a couple of days, then video it and submit it again and lets see how it goes.



Alright , well the video was made after a Long WC practice session and i guess i was already warmed up and got a little carried away in regards to the speed of the excercise , Alright Mr Z , got it , thanks for the valued insight gonna start working on it.


----------



## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> hahaha , well sorta , i always imagine my opp to be taller than me and i haven't found any problems adjusting the opps height in my mind or physically , _*would there be a problem with a high tan?*_



Not really but once it start's getting too high then I would prefer to use what we call a Chum kiu parry because it pulls the opponents head  straight down into my strike.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> Not really but once it start's getting too high then I would prefer to use what we call a Chum kiu parry because it pulls the opponents head  straight down into my strike.



Oh i have a general idea of that chum kiu motion you are referring to but i'm guessin its alot like the tan , Guess i should keep it low.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Sorry for the double post... I can't make the stupid smileys work... and its frustrating ... need a double doobie to understnad this complex thing you people call smileys. . haha


----------



## wtxs

Zepeda, hope you don't mind me rearrange some of your important points.



zepedawingchun said:


> When performing tan sao, drive or push the motion with your elbow, not with your hand.  The fingers should be straight, but not rigid, with the thumb up against the side of the hand.
> 
> Some lineages bend the wrist and lay the hand flat, like what you have illustrated.  I (we) do not.  There are several different reasons, but the main one is so the energy flowing from the elbow to the finger tips has a straight line of travel.  That also allows you to push the position with your elbow and not pull it along with your hand.  So straighten the wrist so the energy will flow down (up) the arm to the hand and has a straight path out the finger tips.  However, the hand should be relaxed.
> 
> The height of a tan sao adapts and changes with the height of your opponent.  So you should do this exercise in front of a mirror to make sure the movements are executed correctly, ie, correct height, angled upwards, fingers, hands, forearms in line with the center line.



Also when performing tan sao, *drive* or *push* the motion with your elbow - some call it an DRILLING motion, or like an cork screw, it's the combination of the forward and rotational force that caused that slight angular deflection of the opposing arm.

As been pointed out many times, that unprotected thumb will get you.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Yeah the point about the thumb was really important ofcourse and a change has been duly  made , while yesterday's practice went smoothly with the changes mentioned ... i've been succesful at driving with the elbow and keeping a straight relaxed wrist and yes i do notice a sort of drilling motion. Thankyou for the feedback wtxs.


----------



## zepedawingchun

wtxs said:


> Zepeda, hope you don't mind me rearrange some of your important points.


 

No, I don't mind you re-arranging some of the points.



wtxs said:


> Also when performing tan sao, *drive* or *push* the motion with your elbow - some call it an DRILLING motion, or like an cork screw, it's the combination of the forward and rotational force that caused that slight angular deflection of the opposing arm.
> 
> As been pointed out many times, that unprotected thumb will get you.


 
The way Lambo is doing the tan sao drill at this moment, the drilling motion is not being addressed for a reason. The idea here is to focus on the push with the elbow, not so much the drilling or corkscrewing. After I see he is pushing, then he will be requested to bring the returning hand into a wu sao position and then start the drilling. Thus, when he does tan sao in the form, he will be asked to focus on the corkscrewing and slight upward arc going forward when performing tan sao.

In tan sao, there are 3 motions involved. . . . forward push of the arm, twisting or corkscrewing of the arm, and a slight upward arc as the arm (tan) comes forward to disperse from the side chambered position. I like to break it down to all 3 motions separately and add them together in a specific order.  When all 3 motions are taught at the same time, I find students tend to not get it correct, lose or forget one of the motions, or do not maintain the tan sao in the centerline position.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> No, I don't mind you re-arranging some of the points.
> 
> 
> 
> The way Lambo is doing the tan sao drill at this moment, the drilling motion is not being addressed for a reason. The idea here is to focus on the push with the elbow, not so much the drilling or corkscrewing. After I see he is pushing, then he will be requested to bring the returning hand into a wu sao position and then start the drilling. Thus, when he does tan sao in the form, he will be asked to focus on the corkscrewing and slight upward arc going forward when performing tan sao.
> 
> In tan sao, there are 3 motions involved. . . . forward push of the arm, twisting or corkscrewing of the arm, and a slight upward arc as the arm (tan) comes forward to disperse from the side chambered position. I like to break it down to all 3 motions separately and add them together in a specific order.  When all 3 motions are taught at the same time, I find students tend to not get it correct, lose or forget one of the motions, or do not maintain the tan sao in the centerline position.



Thanks for that , i'm reading this from work and well i've  seen busier days , anywho i've had quite a lot of spare time today so i'm doing the thing i enjoy most and there is a very convenient mirror here that i've been standing infront of implementing everything that you mentioned , so far i think i've made some progress regerding my tan sau , well it another four hours of work for me since it looks like things are getting busy again ,  going to make a video after my nightly WC session until then i have to find a shirt thats less wet haha ... See you guys tonight , Much respect. *Bow*


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

The tan sao second practice session, couldn't post a video last night so i recorded after my practice session in the morning today ... Well anyway here it is.


----------



## bully

In my novice opinion they look a little high and the angle of your forearm is too steep.

However, lineages do things in different ways so I will let the experts offer their advice.

I laughed when you sorted your hair out after taking your cap off:uhyeah:

Again kudos to you for posting vids on here, takes some balls to have it critiqued. I am far too shy at the mo but as I have said maybe in the future.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> The tan sao second practice session, couldn't post a video last night so i recorded after my practice session in the morning today ... Well anyway here it is.


 
Okay Haris Lamboo Faisal, again do it a little bit slower. The speed your using would be for executing the tan, but you are trying to learn the proper position when executing first. Focus on the hand position first, learn it and understand it.

The tan sao is a bit too high, so drop it maybe a little bit. Of course, I think the height of the camera recording (held) may have a little bit to do with it too.  Also, when replacing one tan sao with another, make the retracting hand slide completely *UNDER* the hand coming forward. Or put abother way, let the hand coming forward travel over the retracting hand. The returning hand is defending the space (blocking any entry from your opponent) below your tan sao. The hand (arm) coming forward always takes presidence (command) over the retracting hand. In the video, you're moving your hand side to side and it should be over one another. It follows the same motion you use when doing your punch . . . . straight line forward, semi circular motion retracting.


----------



## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> The tan sao second practice session, couldn't post a video last night so i recorded after my practice session in the morning today ... Well anyway here it is.



Yeah , they are too high mate.
Instead of driving your force out , you are driving your force up.
Think of it as a piercing movement , just pierce forward from the elbow.


----------



## cwk

Also, try to roll your shoulder back naturally in it's socket as you push from the elbow out. Doing this should help with correct alignment.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

bully said:


> In my novice opinion they look a little high and the angle of your forearm is too steep.
> 
> However, lineages do things in different ways so I will let the experts offer their advice.
> 
> I laughed when you sorted your hair out after taking your cap off:uhyeah:
> 
> Again kudos to you for posting vids on here, takes some balls to have it critiqued. I am far too shy at the mo but as I have said maybe in the future.



Pffshaw bully you've probably been practicing more years than i've been alive =p Your novice opinion is most welcome.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> Okay Haris Lamboo Faisal, again do it a little bit slower. The speed your using would be for executing the tan, but you are trying to learn the proper position when executing first. Focus on the hand position first, learn it and understand it.
> 
> The tan sao is a bit too high, so drop it maybe a little bit. Of course, I think the height of the camera recording (held) may have a little bit to do with it too.  Also, when replacing one tan sao with another, make the retracting hand slide completely *UNDER* the hand coming forward. Or put abother way, let the hand coming forward travel over the retracting hand. The returning hand is defending the space (blocking any entry from your opponent) below your tan sao. The hand (arm) coming forward always takes presidence (command) over the retracting hand. In the video, you're moving your hand side to side and it should be over one another. It follows the same motion you use when doing your punch . . . . straight line forward, semi circular motion retracting.



Got it, go slower , arms bringing force forwards at an angle with the arms tilting upwards coming out no higher than the chin ... they should be going over and under each other. Thanks.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> Yeah , they are too high mate.
> Instead of driving your force out , you are driving your force up.
> Think of it as a piercing movement , just pierce forward from the elbow.



hmm piercing forward , got it ... i think i've got my mind around all the mistakes i made in the last video ... so i should be able to come out with a decent looking tan next time around. Ty


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

cwk said:


> Also, try to roll your shoulder back naturally in it's socket as you push from the elbow out. Doing this should help with correct alignment.



That was useful. Ty


----------



## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> hmm piercing forward , got it ... i think i've got my mind around all the mistakes i made in the last video ... so i should be able to come out with a decent looking tan next time around. Ty



Sometimes these things are easier to understand the workings of after you have used them in application , rather than just how you imagine them to work.

Why don't you get your mate the camera man to set up the camera on the side and have him fire off some very slow chain punching.

You do the same thing you were doing before in the air with the tan sau's except this time you are going to use them on the outside of his wrists to redirect his punches.
Very good exercise for learning to control the centerline and get that tan sau dead on centre.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> Sometimes these things are easier to understand the workings of after you have used them in application , rather than just how you imagine them to work.
> 
> Why don't you get your mate the camera man to set up the camera on the side and have him fire off some very slow chain punching.
> 
> You do the same thing you were doing before in the air with the tan sau's except this time you are going to use them on the outside of his wrists to redirect his punches.
> Very good exercise for learning to control the centerline and get that tan sau dead on centre.



hmm about to start the training session , ima make a vid after it. and do the excercise too hopefully though my mate is a little camera shy.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> Sometimes these things are easier to understand the workings of after you have used them in application , rather than just how you imagine them to work.
> 
> Why don't you get your mate the camera man to set up the camera on the side and have him fire off some very slow chain punching.
> 
> You do the same thing you were doing before in the air with the tan sau's except this time you are going to use them on the outside of his wrists to redirect his punches.
> Very good exercise for learning to control the centerline and get that tan sau dead on centre.



Okay while doing it with my partner we had alot of fun xD and i waited until i edited in one of my favorite instrumentals before posting , came across something i hadn't thought of ... you put the tan on the outside of your opp's wrist with either hand in this excercise, using the opposite hand ( me left tan, partner left punch) led me to my partner's somewhat exposed ribcage with just a small step had i chosen that route, while the other hand would keep us pretty much straight in line to each other ... or is one incorrect and the other correct? 

at some points for a few seconds my tan's turned into a cirucular motion downwards , i was a little fatigued as this was after about 2 hrs of practicing the stance , the tan sao and some conditioning excercises.


----------



## bully

Like the soundtrack!!

Get your mate to put you under more pressure by getting in closer and putting those punches in so they will actually hit you if you dont get your Tan right.

I would also suggest getting your mate to put some gloves on and doing some boxing shots. Crosses and jabs, these are more like the shots you will get in the real world.

Hooks after that then uppercuts etc.

I need to take some of my own advice and get some of this done myself:ultracool


----------



## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Okay while doing it with my partner we had alot of fun xD and i waited until i edited in one of my favorite instrumentals before posting , came across something i hadn't thought of ... you put the tan on the outside of your opp's wrist with either hand in this excercise, using the opposite hand ( me left tan, partner left punch) led me to my partner's somewhat exposed ribcage with just a small step had i chosen that route, while the other hand would keep us pretty much straight in line to each other ... or is one incorrect and the other correct?
> 
> at some points for a few seconds my tan's turned into a cirucular motion downwards , i was a little fatigued as this was after about 2 hrs of practicing the stance , the tan sao and some conditioning excercises.



Haris , get a bit more light on the subject please I almost needed night vision goggles to see what was going on.

Not bad Haris considering , I will just put these in point form to save time.



As Bully mentioned , your mate is too far out of range , this can interfere with your technique , get him in closer or if he is too timid you step in towards him , always train in range.


Your shoulders are starting to come into play , and your body is starting to swing a bit , sink down and keep your shoulders still , let your elbows do the work.


The main problem is that you are starting off your Tan Sau with the forearm already rotated before you even come into contact with his arm , don't rotate your forearm until the edge of your hand makes contact with the outside of the wrist. This is called "shearing elbow force " Then after it has done it's job it rotates back to a neutral position ready for your other hand to come back over the top.


Your force is too circular , project your force from the elbow by piercing forward slightly , keep your fingers aimed at his throat , keep your wrist on the centreline.


For the purposes of this exercise I just wanted you to use your Tan Sau on the outside of his wrists , as in your right Tan Sau pinky finger side to the outside of his left punch.


You can use your Tan on his opposite arm , but at your stage you are better off just counter punching , which leads to another exercise called chain punching vs chain punching , using the Tan on his opposite arm will be someways down the track , as it is a bit more of a complex movement involving sinking the elbow.


These exercises develop timing , correct technique , but mainly they develop "elbow force".


----------



## zepedawingchun

mook jong man said:


> Haris , get a bit more light on the subject please I almost needed night vision goggles to see what was going on.
> 
> Not bad Haris considering , I will just put these in point form to save time.
> 
> 
> 
> As Bully mentioned , your mate is too far out of range , this can interfere with your technique , get him in closer or if he is too timid you step in towards him , always train in range.
> 
> Your shoulders are starting to come into play , and your body is starting to swing a bit , sink down and keep your shoulders still , let your elbows do the work.
> 
> The main problem is that you are starting off your Tan Sau with the forearm already rotated before you even come into contact with his arm , don't rotate your forearm until the edge of your hand makes contact with the outside of the wrist. This is called "shearing elbow force " Then after it has done it's job it rotates back to a neutral position ready for your other hand to come back over the top.
> 
> Your force is too circular , project your force from the elbow by piercing forward slightly , keep your fingers aimed at his throat , keep your wrist on the centreline.
> 
> For the purposes of this exercise I just wanted you to use your Tan Sau on the outside of his wrists , as in your right Tan Sau pinky finger side to the outside of his left punch.
> 
> You can use your Tan on his opposite arm , but at your stage you are better off just counter punching , which leads to another exercise called chain punching vs chain punching , using the Tan on his opposite arm will be someways down the track , as it is a bit more of a complex movement involving sinking the elbow.
> 
> These exercises develop timing , correct technique , but mainly they develop "elbow force".


 
Haris Lamboo Faisal, ditto everything Mook Jong Man said plus:

First off, the drill I gave you is not to be used in the manner in which you are using it in this last video.  So *stop*.  The drill is the first part to a two part drill which only helps you learn to push the tan sao with the elbow, by sliding it when it makes contact to an opponent.  Tan sao is not designed to bump or thump,  but disperse by sliding and torqueing.  Tan sao means dispersing hand, so like an arrow travelling through the air or a torpedo travelling through the water, it disperses an obstruction (an opponent's punch or blocking arm) out of it's way as it travels forward.

Second, again you are going *way too fast *in doing the drill.

Third, upon watching your tan sao in the last video, it also tells me you are doing your chain punching wrong, meaning you're executing the punches in a circular manner.  Your punch and tan sao should come from the wu sao position straight out and not circle over the other arm, and the retracting arm should make a half circle or semi-circular return to the wu sau or elbow guard position.

Do the drill I gave you again, with the corrections discussed in previous posts, plus what I have told you here.  But don't use a partner in conjunction with it *YET!*

Then produce a video of it and if it looks correct, I'll give you the second part of the drill.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> Haris Lamboo Faisal, ditto everything Mook Jong Man said plus:
> 
> First off, the drill I gave you is not to be used in the manner in which you are using it in this last video.  So *stop*.  The drill is the first part to a two part drill which only helps you learn to push the tan sao with the elbow, by sliding it when it makes contact to an opponent.  Tan sao is not designed to bump or thump,  but disperse by sliding and torqueing.  Tan sao means dispersing hand, so like an arrow travelling through the air or a torpedo travelling through the water, it disperses an obstruction (an opponent's punch or blocking arm) out of it's way as it travels forward.
> 
> Second, again you are going *way too fast *in doing the drill.
> 
> Third, upon watching your tan sao in the last video, it also tells me you are doing your chain punching wrong, meaning you're executing the punches in a circular manner.  Your punch and tan sao should come from the wu sao position straight out and not circle over the other arm, and the retracting arm should make a half circle or semi-circular return to the wu sau or elbow guard position.
> 
> Do the drill I gave you again, with the corrections discussed in previous posts, plus what I have told you here.  But don't use a partner in conjunction with it *YET!*
> 
> Then produce a video of it and if it looks correct, I'll give you the second part of the drill.




yes , but i thought that giving it a shot even though i haven't completed the tan sau drills would be interesting for a session , you know i can always come back to it later if its hideous , but it also got me thinking more about the tan sau  ... i've been doing the excercise very slowly and that seems to make it easier to keep the shoulders back when i try to speed up. getting a hang of the rotation at the end of the tan sau.

Still think the tan sau needs some work , trying to make it feel natural but it feels like something's wrong. So i guess atleast i'm thinking about it.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

mook jong man said:


> Haris , get a bit more light on the subject please I almost needed night vision goggles to see what was going on.
> 
> Not bad Haris considering , I will just put these in point form to save time.
> 
> 
> 
> As Bully mentioned , your mate is too far out of range , this can interfere with your technique , get him in closer or if he is too timid you step in towards him , always train in range.
> 
> 
> Your shoulders are starting to come into play , and your body is starting to swing a bit , sink down and keep your shoulders still , let your elbows do the work.
> 
> 
> The main problem is that you are starting off your Tan Sau with the forearm already rotated before you even come into contact with his arm , don't rotate your forearm until the edge of your hand makes contact with the outside of the wrist. This is called "shearing elbow force " Then after it has done it's job it rotates back to a neutral position ready for your other hand to come back over the top.
> 
> 
> Your force is too circular , project your force from the elbow by piercing forward slightly , keep your fingers aimed at his throat , keep your wrist on the centreline.
> 
> 
> For the purposes of this exercise I just wanted you to use your Tan Sau on the outside of his wrists , as in your right Tan Sau pinky finger side to the outside of his left punch.
> 
> 
> You can use your Tan on his opposite arm , but at your stage you are better off just counter punching , which leads to another exercise called chain punching vs chain punching , using the Tan on his opposite arm will be someways down the track , as it is a bit more of a complex movement involving sinking the elbow.
> 
> 
> These exercises develop timing , correct technique , but mainly they develop "elbow force".



Well , long list  =p but i'm working on it .. i think i almost got it. about to start training right after i type this post out infact.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

bully said:


> Like the soundtrack!!
> 
> Get your mate to put you under more pressure by getting in closer and putting those punches in so they will actually hit you if you dont get your Tan right.
> 
> I would also suggest getting your mate to put some gloves on and doing some boxing shots. Crosses and jabs, these are more like the shots you will get in the real world.
> 
> Hooks after that then uppercuts etc.
> 
> I need to take some of my own advice and get some of this done myself:ultracool



hmm thanks ... i'm gonna make sure to get in closer so that the punches actually pose a hitting chance but i think the tan sau drill still needs alotta work ... it needs a little more attention that i'm giving it right now. Guess i need to stop acting like a keyboard warrior and actually get back to the practice session :Mushi Mushi


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Hmm, this is my tan sao after the today's morning session ... did alot of SNT first section , chain punching , wrist, hand and torso excercises and mostly worked on my tan sao. Finally got around to getting it to feel a little natural apart from the thumb sticking out. Still needs some work But i thought i'd make a recording of it anyway. Oh and alot more light this time


----------



## mook jong man

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Hmm, this is my tan sao after the today's morning session ... did alot of SNT first section , chain punching , wrist, hand and torso excercises and mostly worked on my tan sao. Finally got around to getting it to feel a little natural apart from the thumb sticking out. Still needs some work But i thought i'd make a recording of it anyway. Oh and alot more light this time



I like you , your a funny bastard.




Sink your weight , you appear to be a little high in your stance.


When you cross your arms down , I would say your arms are a little too straightish for my liking , also your arms are changing angle , make sure you maintain the angle in your arms through out the whole downwards to upwards motion


From the downwards crossed position make sure you are using the elbows to thrust the arms back up to the top position.


Again the thumb was sticking out and I thought I saw a hand there where all the fingers weren't together . I can't stress enough to keep your fingers together and thumb tucked in , fingers and thumbs take ages to heal once they get injured and sometimes they are never quite the same again in terms of range of motion.


The Tan Sau's looked ok from where I'm sitting , keep up the good work Haris.


----------



## wtxs

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


>





mook jong man said:


> I like you , your a funny bastard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sink your weight , you appear to be a little high in your stance.
> 
> 
> When you cross your arms down , I would say your arms are a little too straightish for my liking , also your arms are changing angle , make sure you maintain the angle in your arms through out the whole downwards to upwards motion
> 
> 
> From the downwards crossed position make sure you are using the elbows to thrust the arms back up to the top position.
> 
> 
> Again the thumb was sticking out and I thought I saw a hand there where all the fingers weren't together . I can't stress enough to keep your fingers together and thumb tucked in , fingers and thumbs take ages to heal once they get injured and sometimes they are never quite the same again in terms of range of motion.
> 
> 
> The Tan Sau's looked ok from where I'm sitting , keep up the good work Haris.



Mook, look at what you have done ... now I'll have to go along with you and say something nice. 

Haris, my hat's off to you.  Despite what had been said about the negative aspects of video and long distant learning, I'm glad that you chose not to listen and did not give up.

With such desire and determination, any teacher would fortunate to have you as a student.

Now go back to the beginning, work on the proper opening stance (feet) and chamber of your fists, before the lower front crossing of your arms.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

TY guys ... ima keep those things in mind ... i need to keep the thumb in and make sure the stance doesn't suffer because of  practicing something new.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal,

Your tan sao's are still sliding side by side and not one over top of the other.  Your wu sao should touch your forearm and slide over top of it to the wrist, slowly for this drill.  The retracting hand should be touching your forearm as it slides back into the wu sau position.  Please slow it down ever more, go at a snail's pace, you're still rushing the positions.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> Haris Lamboo Faisal,
> 
> Your tan sao's are still sliding side by side and not one over top of the other.  Your wu sao should touch your forearm and slide over top of it to the wrist, slowly for this drill.  The retracting hand should be touching your forearm as it slides back into the wu sau position.  Please slow it down ever more, go at a snail's pace, you're still rushing the positions.



Hmm after looking at it carefully ... that does make a little sense by that do you mean i should exxagerate the over and under movement a little bit?


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Hmm after looking at it carefully ... that does make a little sense by that do you mean i should exxagerate the over and under movement a little bit?


 
Yes.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

today i tried to sink in to the stance a bit more.
SNT section 1


----------



## cwk

Link doesn't work. Why did you remove the video?


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

removed it because i uploaded an old video instead of yesterday's...this is the video i meant to upload.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Had a long WC session did the tan sau alot of chain punches on the punching bag ... a lot of SNT and other excercises to condition the wrist and arms.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Had a long WC session did the tan sau alot of chain punches on the punching bag ... a lot of SNT and other excercises to condition the wrist and arms.


 
The tan sao drill looked better.  You cheated the tan a couple of times (side by side), but all in all it was okay.  Keep your wrists locked straight, the hands were bent down a bit, which may suggest you're not using your elbows entirely to drive the tan.  And still need to do it slower and when you add the next part, you'll understand why.  Also, tuck in those thumbs, glue them to the sides of your hand or something, but don't leave them sticking out.  They make great handles for an opponent to grab, break, or rip off.

And what's the deal with the nunchakus?  Terrible weapon, great for hurting yourself.  Get yourself a Kali stick or long blade of some type.  Why train with a farm tool when you can train with a real weapon?


----------



## zepedawingchun

Okay, HLF, next part to add to the tan sao drill.  You will need a partner for this.  The guy who holds the camera for you will do.  I trust you have another way of holding the camera.

The drill is designed to help you learn how to push your tan saos using your elbow.  It does not teach you how to use the tan sao, yet, but is close.  It just helps you with the energy needed to execute tan.  Also, the drill is not finished, there is yet another part.  So work on this.

Okay, so start with one arm forward in a tan sao position, say your left hand, with your right hand in wu sao (guard).  You partner will stand in front facing you.  From that, your partner will take his right hand and slide it on top of your left tan sao, slowly, driving it across the wrist, pointed in the direction of your right quarterline (area between your centerline and shoulder).  The instant his hand crosses over your wrist, you will execute a tan sao with your right hand.  If done correctly, your tan sao will connect with his arm and push it off the line with your tan sao in his centerline and your retracting hand going to wu sao position.  Your partner should leave his right hand in the position it is at when you finish your tan sao.  Then your partner will repeat the drill for your left tan sao.  Your right arm should be in a tan sao position, and your partner will take his left hand  and slide it on top of your right tan sao (pulling back his right hand while sliding his left forward), slowly, driving it across the wrist, pointed in the direction of your left quarterline (area between your centerline and shoulder).  The instant his left hand crosses over your wrist, you will execute a tan sao with your left hand.  If done correctly, your tan sao will connect with his arm and push it off the line with your tan sao in his centerline and your retracting hand going to wu sao position.  Your partner should leave his hand in the position it is at when you finish you tan sao.  

Then your partner and you will repeat this drill over and over for a few minutes, doing right then left tan saos.  Your partner sliding his hand/arm should be relaxed, not stiff, hard, or rigid, and go to full extention.  But he should give you a little resistance so you learn to use the elbow to push.  When executing your tan saos, drive the position with your elbows, keeping your wrists straight, and point the tan sao up towards your partners chin or nose.  Also, your tan sao should be on the outer side of your partners arm when you finish executing your tan sao.

It is an easy drill to do once you understand what youre doing.  However, it should be done slowly.

Try to do the drill with your partner, film it and put it up so I can see that youre doing it right.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

got it , i just finished up today's session currently copying the video to the pc gonna upload it soon , well he's asleep right now so i'll give it a go tomorrow morning hopefully. This seems like a very interesting drill. Ty


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

One question though should he slide his hand across my wrist in a tan sau motion or a punching motion? 

Also i got the nunchuks almost for free and they were made in 1985 i think but still very  robust ... Hmm i actually did consider kali training since i've heard its amazing stamina wise.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> One question though should he slide his hand across my wrist in a tan sau motion or a punching motion?


 
Yes, your partner should use a punching motion (wing Chun punch, with elbow pointed down or what we call a vertical punch), but do it slowly.




Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Also i got the nunchuks almost for free and they were made in 1985 i think but still very robust ... Hmm i actually did consider kali training since i've heard its amazing stamina wise. ?


 
To me, Kali sticks are second to the Wing Chun butterfly swords.  The concepts, principles, and theories are very similar.  So I can jump from Wing Chun blades to kali stick or vice versa at a moments notice. Very easy.  Plus because Kali focuses on weapons first, it makes it easy for Wing Chun students to understand the blades  of WC much faster. 




Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


>


 
Can I make one observation in you SNT form, when you do the fook sao (fuk sao?), you're dropping your fook sao a bit too much.  The wrist should stay about the same height on the fook sao as with the returning wu sao.  Which is also the height of the wrist for tan sao and bong sao.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> Yes, your partner should use a punching motion (wing Chun punch, with elbow pointed down or what we call a vertical punch), but do it slowly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me, Kali sticks are second to the Wing Chun butterfly swords.  The concepts, principles, and theories are very similar.  So I can jump from Wing Chun blades to kali stick or vice versa at a moments notice. Very easy.  Plus because Kali focuses on weapons first, it makes it easy for Wing Chun students to understand the blades  of WC much faster.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can I make one observation in you SNT form, when you do the fook sao (fuk sao?), you're dropping your fook sao a bit too much.  The wrist should stay about the same height on the fook sao as with the returning wu sao.  Which is also the height of the wrist for tan sao and bong sao.




So fook sao bong sao and tan sao are all done at the same height.

Well Mr.Z it was our first attempt at the tan sao partner drill so any mistakes you see you should point out. i'm dunno if this is a stupid question but so far i've continuously practiced the first section of SNT and though i sorta get the basic uses of the straight punch and the tan sao motion and the wu sao position has a fairly obvious use but what about the fook sao and the shoulder block and the palm strike what is the reasoning behind them?

Anyway thanks for watching thanks for reading here's the partner drill video.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> So fook sao bong sao and tan sao are all done at the same height.


 
Yes.



Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> . . . . .and though i sorta get the basic uses of the straight punch and the tan sao motion and the wu sao position has a fairly obvious use but what about the fook sao and the shoulder block and the palm strike what is the reasoning behind them?


 
Shoulder block? Are you talking about when you take your wu sao from centerline to the shoulder then retract it back to center? If so, that is called a pak sao, which means slapping hand. It is meant as a parry to prevent a punch or strike that slips through your defenses to be slapped away (or blocked) from hitting you.

The forward palm strike (dim or deem jern) you use instead of a punch. Basic Wing Chun philosophy is you strike a hard target with something soft and a soft target with something hard. For instance, the basic WC punch is meant to hit someone in the throat or solar plexus. If you want to hit someone in the face or ribs, you use a palm strike instead.

Fook sao means sensing hand. When engaged with an opponent, the hand that has made contact with a bridge (forearm or other body contact), a fook sao, is actively looking to feel or sense any kind of movement that may reveal your opponent is moving to gearing up to attack or retreating. Fook sao may then become a jut, a lop, a tau, a jop, a punch, a biu or any hand position as needed for that moment. 



Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> . Anyway thanks for watching thanks for reading here's the partner drill video.


 
Okay, the drill was pretty close to correct. But here are a few things you need to work on.

1. You guys are doing the drill too fast, slow it down. This drill is the start to sensitivity, proper position and execution of the elbow.

2. The two of you are standing just a bit too close to each other. When facing each other, one of you extend your arms forward and touch the other guys shoulders or chest with your finger tips only. That is as close as you should be standing to each other.

3. On your tan saos, your wrists are not straight. Because the wrist is not totally straight, you are not driving the tan sao fully with your elbow. The hand is partly pulling the tan instead of the elbow pushing. Plus it looks like you're begging for money instead of dispersing something coming at you. The term tan sao means dispersing hand. So straighten your wrists, no bend in the tan what-so-ever.

4. Your elbow is not at the immoveable elbow position, they are too close to your body. The tan(s) need to come out (forward) another 1.5 - 2 inches.

5. Finally, your partner is retracting his punch before he throws the next one. He should not retract his punch until his other hand has made contact to your wrist.

You (the person who executes tan sao) can also do this drill with your eyes closed because you don't perform the tan sao until you feel his punch making contact with your wrist. That is the signal to drive the tan sao with your elbow.

So make these changes and let me see how you're doing.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Am very happy that the drill wasn't completely off , its about sensitivity i get that so gotta slow it down , i noticed the bend in the tan and i'm to blame there gonna do the 1st drill for the tan sau alot more and hopefully eliminate the bend at the wrist.

so its called a pak sao or slapping hand , shoulder block probably sounded weird lol.

That's enlightening , i would've never been able to guess about the palm strike and the fook sao or about this concept of hard on soft and soft on hard , though i did know that one of the applications of palm strike is that if you wanna send someone backwards quickly you deem jern (hope i spelt that right) the chin and push out.

 I'm getting restless to do the drill again but my partner's sleeping and i couldn't stop thinking about it which is why i'm probably still awake lol Thank you very much that was very enlightening.


----------



## Domino

The sensitivity = Keep light contact at the wrist so you know where he is and relax until you feel your partner about to do something, then act on it.
The wooden dummy form can be perfomed without a dummy so my point is it's good to throw shapes hard or soft on your own... might look like a weirdo to some, but still.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Guess so , been practicing but also got various Things i gotta get done so i haven't had the opportunity to record any post session videos , i'm going to make one of my progress after tomorrow morning's session.


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## Domino

Yep, so you are making progress.... I can see your positive vibrations will get you there....even if a car won't get you to class. 
Remember to never forget the foundations you know, don't try progress too quickly.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

xD

I'm not going to forget my foundations they're always in the back of my head , but my practice partner seems to have forgotten himself somewhere lol.

Today's was a solo training session and i finally got time to record ... my lats are aching now.





Also i just read this but i think they wanted bmx riders to  play basketball on this court.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ba...s-tripped-out-basketball-court?urn=nba-wp5743


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

*Also thank you to everyone who's been helping me progress over the few months that i've been active on these forums.*


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> xD
> 
> I'm not going to forget my foundations they're always in the back of my head , but my practice partner seems to have forgotten himself somewhere lol.
> 
> Today's was a solo training session and i finally got time to record ... my lats are aching now.


 
Is that a real mook yan jong you're working on? Where did you get it?

First off, the jong it set too high for you. The top arms on the jong should be at a height between the nipples on your breast and the collarbone. No higher and no lower. If the jong is not adjustable, you'll need to find a way to make it be that height. Too high doesn't help you (as I can see what it is doing to your tan sao) and too low is bad also.

Okay, the drill. Your tan sao's should slide across the wooden dummy's arms, not crash or thump on the arms like what you are doing. Just like the alive man drill you do with your partner, tan sao works because it slides and torques forward, not bumps and crashes. Go back and make the tan smooth by engaging the arms with a smooth sliding motion.

So lower the dummy to the suggested height and practice sliding your hand/arm across the dummy's arms.

Still waiting to see what your two man tan sao drill looks like with your partner.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> Is that a real mook yan jong you're working on? Where did you get it?
> 
> First off, the jong it set too high for you. The top arms on the jong should be at a height between the nipples on your breast and the collarbone. No higher and no lower. If the jong is not adjustable, you'll need to find a way to make it be that height. Too high doesn't help you (as I can see what it is doing to your tan sao) and too low is bad also.
> 
> Okay, the drill. Your tan sao's should slide across the wooden dummy's arms, not crash or thump on the arms like what you are doing. Just like the alive man drill you do with your partner, tan sao works because it slides and torques forward, not bumps and crashes. Go back and make the tan smooth by engaging the arms with a smooth sliding motion.
> 
> So lower the dummy to the suggested height and practice sliding your hand/arm across the dummy's arms.
> 
> Still waiting to see what your two man tan sao drill looks like with your partner.



Alright , my partner's back , he was away or a day but i'm actually about to start training , gonna upload the two man drill after the session. 

Its a self made mook. Made it in the beginning when i had started researching WC.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

alright done with training , i think it went okay , not sure TT

Tan sau partner Drill:


----------



## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> alright done with training , i think it went okay , not sure TT
> 
> Tan sau partner Drill:


 
Alright, looks much, *MUCH* better.  Still not perfect (on your partner's part) but it's close.  And you still have a bit of a bend in your wrist, which makes your hand look like you are begging.  It should be straighter, with the hand relaxed but fingers pointed straight also.  It's hard to explain why the wrist must be straight without being able to show you in person.  But because of the slight angle (bent wrist), your opponent(s) could accidently (or on purpose) grab your hand and arm and put a downward, reverse joint or wrist lock on the tan.  With it perfectly straight, your energy flows and makes it almost impossible for someone to do that. . . . also you're not totally driving the tan with your elbow because of the bend.  So, those are the reasons for a straight wrist position.

I know some people will say a bent wrist (even slightly) does not matter, but if you encounter someone who is very proficient in joint locks (Aikido, Hapkido, BJJ), they will utilize the position against you.

So you're almost there.  Work on it a bit more and sometime next week, I'll give you the last part.


----------



## WC_lun

The structure is also weaker with a bent wrist, meaning the tan sau is not as strong.  While it may or may not make a difference on if the application works in a particular instance, I prefer to do correctly so I cannot be challenged as easily   Remember forward energy toward you opponent's center.  A tan sau done with striking motion to the side can be countered very easily, if for no other reason you will leave your own center open and have a harder time recovering it.  These are things to think about when you work the dummy as well as a live partner.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Alright , i understand , i'm also currently reading a book about qi / ki energy flow in the wing chun systems and it mentioned something along the same lines but when i'm practicing its somewhat different in implementation , gonna keep working on it.

1. Keep a straight wrist.
2. Put more elbow into it so it stays on centre.

This excercise got me to thinking that the rotation of the arm is really what disperses the strike.The guidance i've gotten from everyone is amazing.


----------



## Domino

Looking better.
Keep your protecting Wu sau seperate from your arm, I see its already a habit, also wu sau a bit higher.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

About to start today's session


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Trained outside today but recorded afterwards inside , i seem to be making progress ... lemme know what you guys think.


SNT






Tan sao:


----------



## wtxs

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Trained outside today but recorded afterwards inside , i seem to be making progress ... lemme know what you guys think.
> 
> 
> SNT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tan sao:




Fook sao extened too far out, palm strike should align center. 

Tan sao travels angular straight outward, your left is done with an slight flop downward motion.


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal

wtxs said:


> Fook sao extened too far out, palm strike should align center.
> 
> Tan sao travels angular straight outward, your left is done with an slight flop downward motion.



Hmm Thanks.


----------



## zepedawingchun

zepedawingchun said:


> Okay, HLF, next part to add to the tan sao drill. You will need a partner for this. The guy who holds the camera for you will do. I trust you have another way of holding the camera.
> 
> The drill is designed to help you learn how to push your tan sao&#8217;s using your elbow. It does not teach you how to use the tan sao, yet, but is close. It just helps you with the energy needed to execute tan. Also, the drill is not finished, there is yet another part. So work on this.
> 
> Okay, so start with one arm forward in a tan sao position, say your left hand, with your right hand in wu sao (guard). You partner will stand in front facing you. From that, your partner will take his right hand and slide it on top of your left tan sao, slowly, driving it across the wrist, pointed in the direction of your right quarterline (area between your centerline and shoulder). The instant his hand crosses over your wrist, you will execute a tan sao with your right hand. If done correctly, your tan sao will connect with his arm and push it off the line with your tan sao in his centerline and your retracting hand going to wu sao position. Your partner should leave his right hand in the position it is at when you finish your tan sao. Then your partner will repeat the drill for your left tan sao. Your right arm should be in a tan sao position, and your partner will take his left hand and slide it on top of your right tan sao (pulling back his right hand while sliding his left forward), slowly, driving it across the wrist, pointed in the direction of your left quarterline (area between your centerline and shoulder). The instant his left hand crosses over your wrist, you will execute a tan sao with your left hand. If done correctly, your tan sao will connect with his arm and push it off the line with your tan sao in his centerline and your retracting hand going to wu sao position. Your partner should leave his hand in the position it is at when you finish you tan sao.
> 
> Then your partner and you will repeat this drill over and over for a few minutes, doing right then left tan saos. Your partner sliding his hand/arm should be relaxed, not stiff, hard, or rigid, and go to full extention. But he should give you a little resistance so you learn to use the elbow to push. When executing your tan sao&#8217;s, drive the position with your elbows, keeping your wrists straight, and point the tan sao up towards your partners chin or nose. Also, your tan sao should be on the outer side of your partner&#8217;s arm when you finish executing your tan sao.
> 
> It is an easy drill to do once you understand what you&#8217;re doing. However, it should be done slowly.
> 
> Try to do the drill with your partner, film it and put it up so I can see that you&#8217;re doing it right.



Okay HLF, last part to the tan sao drill (tan da drill). You will need your patner to help you.

Just like before, with you and you partner facing each other, you start with one arm forward in a tan sao position, say your left hand, with your right hand in wu sao (guard). You partner will stand in front facing you. From that, your partner will take his right hand and slide it on top of your left tan sao, slowly, driving it across the wrist, pointed in the direction of your right quarterline (area between your centerline and shoulder). The instant his hand crosses over your wrist, you will execute a tan sao with your right hand. But now, you will retract the left hand, and as your right hand is executing the tan sao, instead of staying in wu sao, your retracting left hand will immediately come forward and perform a punch, right alongside your right tan sao. If done correctly, your tan sao will connect with his arm and push it off the line, at the same time your retracting left hand is executing a punch in his centerline (this is called tan da, simultaneous parry and hit). When finished, retract the punching hand back to wu sao and you are ready to perform the drill for the other side (left side tan sao right side punch). As before, your partner should leave his right hand in the position it is at when you finish your tan da. Then your partner will repeat the drill for your left tan sao.

Sound difficult, but it&#8217;s really easy. If you think you understand it, try it and put up a copy of the drill so I can see if you got it right.

Once you have the gist of how to do it correctly, you and your partner can start the drill from a dis-engaged fighting stance position (basically you partner just throws you a punch), and you execute the tan da on the outside of his punching arm.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Hmm so this is what simultaneous attack and defense is like , tan da , gonna start working on it , its night time here and my partner's asleep ... will make a video in the morning and hopefully it'll turn out alright ... One thing i noticed , it seems to me like when im in ykyjm stance , after i bring my fists upto my chest , if i let my elbows drop slightly instead of sticking them out perpendicular to my back ... well when i let them drop at an angle i seem to generate more power and speed. If that works should i adapt that method?



zepedawingchun said:


> Okay HLF, last part to the tan sao drill (tan da drill). You will need your patner to help you.
> 
> Just like before, with you and you partner facing each other, you start with one arm forward in a tan sao position, say your left hand, with your right hand in wu sao (guard). You partner will stand in front facing you. From that, your partner will take his right hand and slide it on top of your left tan sao, slowly, driving it across the wrist, pointed in the direction of your right quarterline (area between your centerline and shoulder). The instant his hand crosses over your wrist, you will execute a tan sao with your right hand. But now, you will retract the left hand, and as your right hand is executing the tan sao, instead of staying in wu sao, your retracting left hand will immediately come forward and perform a punch, right alongside your right tan sao. If done correctly, your tan sao will connect with his arm and push it off the line, at the same time your retracting left hand is executing a punch in his centerline (this is called tan da, simultaneous parry and hit). When finished, retract the punching hand back to wu sao and you are ready to perform the drill for the other side (left side tan sao right side punch). As before, your partner should leave his right hand in the position it is at when you finish your tan da. Then your partner will repeat the drill for your left tan sao.
> 
> Sound difficult, but it&#8217;s really easy. If you think you understand it, try it and put up a copy of the drill so I can see if you got it right.
> 
> Once you have the gist of how to do it correctly, you and your partner can start the drill from a dis-engaged fighting stance position (basically you partner just throws you a punch), and you execute the tan da on the outside of his punching arm.


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Hmm so this is what simultaneous attack and defense is like , tan da , gonna start working on it , its night time here and my partner's asleep ... will make a video in the morning and hopefully it'll turn out alright ... One thing i noticed , it seems to me like when im in ykyjm stance , after i bring my fists upto my chest , if i let my elbows drop slightly instead of sticking them out perpendicular to my back ... well when i let them drop at an angle i seem to generate more power and speed. If that works should i adapt that method?



Do not let your elbows stick out, keep them down to cover your center. Biggest mistake most beginners make is letting the elbows raise or flair out which opens up the center. That's one of the reasons you learn to punch the way we do is to learn to cover the center from attacks, making our opponents take the long way around our arms to strike, giving us the short distance between out fist and their throat.

Tan da is only one idea for simultaneously blocking and attacking.  You can also just use your punch over your opponents punch to block (or rather parry) and strike at the same time.  Any hand position like tan, biu, pak, jut, or gan can be used with a da (stike like with a punch) at the same time, is a simultaneous parry and strike.  It's not difficult, just takes practice because most people are used to doing one offensive or defensive motion at a time.  But when you learn to drive a car, ride a bike, or really just about anything (chew gum and walk at the same time, etc.) you learn to do several things or two things at once with your hands all at one time.  We as human being just don't realize it.


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## wtxs

zepedawingchun said:


> Tan da is only one idea for simultaneously blocking and attacking.  You can also just use your punch over your opponents punch to block (or rather parry) and strike at the same time.  Any hand position like tan, biu, pak, jut, or gan can be used with a da (stike like with a punch) at the same time, is a simultaneous parry and strike.



Since "parry" is an  fencing term, we use "angular deflection" to explain and to demo the visual process ... the mechanic is similar but not quite the same.  However, you could parry or deflect the incoming attack just enough away from your center line so you don't get hit.  

The truth is ... they both serves to  prevent your opponent form landing one on you.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

I see ... unfortunately my partner's been away again , due to return sometime soon and i think im gonna do this excercise with someone i've already trained with ... instead of someone who doesn't know what to expect when i mean training ... anyway hopefully i'll get the chance to do the tan da excercise by tonight but in the mean time i attempted the SNT Full form.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Treid the Tan da, First attempt went rather Awkwardly , spent a good amount of time figuring it out , then it looked something like this and its probably wrong. But still had to try it

Tan Da:


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Treid the Tan da, First attempt went rather Awkwardly , spent a good amount of time figuring it out , then it looked something like this and its probably wrong. But still had to try it
> 
> Tan Da:



HFL. . . . . *I SAID SLOW*, that is not slow. You and your partner are going *WAY TOO FAST*. This is a drill, to teach you tan da, not a competition or an actual attack. Slow it down, way, *WAY* down.

Also, your punch should be along side your tan sau, not your tan sao execiting (and finishing) and then you throw your punch. The punch should come along side your tan sao and they stop (or finish) at the same time. That is why you have to do it really, *really* slow. When you actually use the tan da from an actual punch thrown at you, the tan and the punch are done together, at the same time.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Oh ... Maybe i got carried away. Okay gonna record again tonight. slow and simultaneous.


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## wtxs

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> ... in the mean time i attempted the SNT Full form.



At 1:38 and 1:43 ... bong, Tan, palm strike.


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> I see ... unfortunately my partner's been away again , due to return sometime soon and i think im gonna do this excercise with someone i've already trained with ... instead of someone who doesn't know what to expect when i mean training ... anyway hopefully i'll get the chance to do the tan da excercise by tonight but in the mean time i attempted the SNT Full form.



HLF, who's SNT are you doing? A lot of things wrong with it, from my point of view.  The movements are very jerky instead of smooth and flowing.  Also, the sequence in the 3rd set is incorrect, but that's not really important, as long as all the important hand positions are done.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Hmm , i was doing ip chin's but i knew it was a little messy , been working on that as well , gonna start recording the morning session so hopefully both the excercises will look better this time.


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Hmm , i was doing ip chin's but i knew it was a little messy , been working on that as well , gonna start recording the morning session so hopefully both the excercises will look better this time.



Don't know who Ip Chin is . . . . there is Ip Chun or Ip Ching.  So what'd you do, cut them in half, blended them together and get Ip Chin?  So which one?


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Lol it was a form i found online for the sake of attempting , it was probably Ip chung , been practicing it for the past few days as well as the tan da excercise , its gotten smoother... but ... it's definately Ip Chung's  form, now i remember


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Lol it was a form i found online for the sake of attempting , it was probably Ip chung , been practicing it for the past few days as well as the tan da excercise , its gotten smoother... but ... it's definately Ip Chung's form, now i remember



HLF,  Ip Chung is a football player in Hong Kong.  If you're talking Ip Man's sons (gung fu) there is Ip Chun and Ip Ching, no Ip Chung or Ip Ching.  So who your SNT form from, Ip Chun or Ip Ching?


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## Domino

Your form has changed if it is Ip Man form.
When you start SLT, punch then flat palm up and huen sau, huen sau palm must face floor, like grabbing someones shirt.


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## geezer

_Holy Moly_, guys! I can't believe this thread is still going. Most of you have agreed that there's no way to learn WC through "distance learning" online, even with a well organized curriculum, much less trying to do it by watching Youtube clips and getting random input on a forum like this. Look, I "feel Haris's pain". He doesn't have a qualified instructor and we all wish to help him. But we aren't. We are just encouraging him to go down the path to bad habits and bogus technique. 

Haris, If you really want to learn WC you have two choices. First, try to _get a group together_ to share training and the expense of instruction, then... 

1. Periodically travel to to someplace where you can work under a truly qualified instructor, then come back and work like hell with your training partners. And they should help contribute funds towards your continued training too. Maybe you have a relative or friend in England or someplace where you can access good training? Or, as previously mentioned, you could check out EBMAS. They have branches in Turkey and elsewhere in the Middle-East. Emin himself charges a lot, but it looks like he has some qualified people in those countries who might be willing to travel and teach for less.

2. Pool resources with your group and invite a qualified instructor to visit and give a seminar in your country. If it works out get him back a couple times a year. Some instructors enjoy traveling and are very interested in spreading their art, _if_ you can hold up your end of the deal. Plus as a group leader, you'd probably get in some private training and get taught at an accelerated rate.

Either way, you'll have to work really hard to  contact the right instructor and build and promote a group. But nothing comes easy. If you do it right, as the group's leader, you could end up getting special attention and some very good training.  If you decide to give it a try, people here might be willing to suggest some instructors to contact, if you PM them. Otherwise, you can keep on living a fantasy and trying to learn from Youtube and forums. It's up to you dude. I'm outta here! Time to close this thread.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

zepedawingchun said:


> HLF,  Ip Chung is a football player in Hong Kong.  If you're talking Ip Man's sons (gung fu) there is Ip Chun and Ip Ching, no Ip Chung or Ip Ching.  So who your SNT form from, Ip Chun or Ip Ching?



Hey Mr.Z , apologies for the hiatus , was taking a break , my right elbow joint was hurting a bit so i didn't want to cause more damage to it and i decided not to visit the forum since that would make me want to practice and not rest the arm ... Anyway i did practice today since my arm was feeling better but i had to stop 40 minutes into training because the pain struck up again.But i've found a solution in the form of this amazing herbal medicine that heal minor joint pains i applied it right after training.

You were right , i got the name wrong , this is the form i looked at.It was Gm Ip Chun disemboweling his name wasn't on my list of things to do. Sheesh , i finally got around to practicing tonight but this was the video i used to get the rest of the form , since Ip man's original video the one that was recorded in black and white was too sped up for me to work the details out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiXQYoBezMc&playnext=1&list=PLE9FC025BCD83509B


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal




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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

geezer said:


> _Holy Moly_, guys! I can't believe this thread is still going. Most of you have agreed that there's no way to learn WC through "distance learning" online, even with a well organized curriculum, much less trying to do it by watching Youtube clips and getting random input on a forum like this. Look, I "feel Haris's pain". He doesn't have a qualified instructor and we all wish to help him. But we aren't. We are just encouraging him to go down the path to bad habits and bogus technique.
> 
> Haris, If you really want to learn WC you have two choices. First, try to _get a group together_ to share training and the expense of instruction, then...
> 
> 1. Periodically travel to to someplace where you can work under a truly qualified instructor, then come back and work like hell with your training partners. And they should help contribute funds towards your continued training too. Maybe you have a relative or friend in England or someplace where you can access good training? Or, as previously mentioned, you could check out EBMAS. They have branches in Turkey and elsewhere in the Middle-East. Emin himself charges a lot, but it looks like he has some qualified people in those countries who might be willing to travel and teach for less.
> 
> 2. Pool resources with your group and invite a qualified instructor to visit and give a seminar in your country. If it works out get him back a couple times a year. Some instructors enjoy traveling and are very interested in spreading their art, _if_ you can hold up your end of the deal. Plus as a group leader, you'd probably get in some private training and get taught at an accelerated rate.
> 
> Either way, you'll have to work really hard to  contact the right instructor and build and promote a group. But nothing comes easy. If you do it right, as the group's leader, you could end up getting special attention and some very good training.  If you decide to give it a try, people here might be willing to suggest some instructors to contact, if you PM them. Otherwise, you can keep on living a fantasy and trying to learn from Youtube and forums. It's up to you dude. I'm outta here! Time to close this thread.



True ,Say i got a group together , say they're all enthusiastic , i could try to do that and hey a few weeks of organising and planning might even get me to get an instructor to come and talk about wc for a while , on a stretch he/she might even stick around for a week or so and then when he/she will leave i doubt me or the group get any feedback from anyone. so i think i won't go through the hassle of someone coming in and speaking about training with us for a week and then not really giving me/us any feedback , which would really ruin the point of training for me.

I don't mean to be rude but that's honestly not a very good alternative i'd be better off spending a year or so in china , which i can't frickin do right now either T.T The reason i'm still keeping this thread going is this *if i am going to do something might as well get some critique on it since that's what makes you learn*  ...So here's what i'll do i'll continue to post the videos as a log for my training and you really don't have to watch them. Just don't click this thread it's that simple. Don't take offence just don't come to this thread. I started this and i'm not going to stop.

Regards
Lamboo.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Tan Da this is probably a little better but not entirely correct , constructive criticism would be appreciated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwMAFiPvGRA


SNT Video recorded but corrupted ... Gonna do another one in the morning too tired right now.


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## yak sao

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> True ,Say i got a group together , say they're all enthusiastic , i could try to do that and hey a few weeks of organising and planning might even get me to get an instructor to come and talk about wc for a while , on a stretch he/she might even stick around for a week or so and then when he/she will leave i doubt me or the group get any feedback from anyone. so i think i won't go through the hassle of someone coming in and speaking about training with us for a week and then not really giving me/us any feedback , which would really ruin the point of training for me.
> 
> I don't mean to be rude but that's honestly not a very good alternative i'd be better off spending a year or so in china , which i can't frickin do right now either T.T The reason i'm still keeping this thread going is this *if i am going to do something might as well get some critique on it since that's what makes you learn* ...So here's what i'll do i'll continue to post the videos as a log for my training and you really don't have to watch them. Just don't click this thread it's that simple. Don't take offence just don't come to this thread. I started this and i'm not going to stop.
> 
> Regards
> Lamboo.




I think you're misunderstanding what geezer was suggesting. Bring an instructor to you on a monthly/bi-monthly basis ( or go to him)  In the interim, get your guys together and train your **** off.
It works...that's how I started, and I'm pretty sure that's how geezer got his start.
Not as good as having a full time si-fu to train under, but it beats Sifu Yoo Toob every time.


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## geezer

OK Haris, let me give this one more try, just to clarify things. It's just like Yak said. Back in 1979 I started WC, but within a few months the school closed down and the instructor moved out of state. Like you, I was at a loss as to how to continue. But later, in 1980, our "remnant" group of WC fanatics made contact with _GM Leung Ting_ and brought him over from Hong Kong to give 10-day seminars several times a year. Fortunately this was at exactly the time when Leung Ting wanted to bring his "WT" system to the US, so he did not charge as much as did he later. Still it was expensive and tough training. These were _not_ your typical four-hour "Saturday seminars". Instead, about four of us... the "core group" would practically live with the master for ten days straight while he stayed in our city. Then sometimes we'd fly with him to his next engagement, for additional training. Then when he was gone we'd train intensively among ourselves and try to perfect what he'd taught us, so we'd be better prepared for the next installment when he came back about four months later. Fortunately our group included my former WC instructor who had returned to our area, so during the interim periods we did have the guidance of an experienced WC guy. Anyway, this went on for about a dozen years, before I had to stop training for a while. As I said, it was not an ideal solution. I have no doubt I could have learned better under the daily guidance of a good instructor living right in my town. But I did not have that option. So I did the best I could. Anyway, Haris, I suggest you go back and re-read my previous post and see if it is helpful. Best of luck.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

okay i re-read your post and it seems logical some basically 'sort of live instruction is better than no instruction whatsoever' ... i don't want to sound like a needy prick But you don't quite understand my current situation ,to put it simply , the going is tough and i have nowhere to go , so all i can say is yeah i can work on it but i don't see any hope for me and wing chun anymore and its frickin pisses me off , i could probably work on it really hard , getting some known instructor to come but even then i think its over , atleast for now , i really don't want to spoil it for myself , i think i'm the only bastard who's gonna miss doing WC even though i sucked so hard at it. your post was constructive , and i imagine a little ways down the road that might be possible if all else fails. For now though maybe i should just stop.

EDIT: Sheesh What the **** was i thinking , i can't stop practicing because the thought of not practicing in itself is depressing , i know if i focus i can make iut work somehow., i think i'll have to be more meticulous and i'll still have to keep going.
Gonna try to get someone to give a seminar here but until the i'm going to keep practicing.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

I have seriously considered what geezer said but i might as well post this since i already recorded it ... Just let me know if you anyone is still willing to offer critique


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## threethirty

Keep on training what you doing now. Some training (no matter how bad is better than no training). work on the basics: the 4 hands, 6 stances, and 3 1/2 body methods. My Sigong's Sifu had to stand in horse stance for 2 hours before he was allowed to become a student.


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Tan Da this is probably a little better but not entirely correct , constructive criticism would be appreciated:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwMAFiPvGRA
> 
> 
> SNT Video recorded but corrupted ... Gonna do another one in the morning too tired right now.



HLF. . . . . .wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, *wrong ! ! ! ! Go back and read what I wrote again! *That is not the way you do it. The punch is incorrect.  Play the video, and look at what you're doing and tell me if that makes sense to you.  Now find a video on Youtube where someone is using tan da and tell me if you see anyone doing tan da like what you are doing.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

DOh!  I'm using the wrong hand ... That was a silly mistake ... okay after re-reading it and watching a video which i didn't do the first time i get it. Mr .Z i'll put a video up tomorrow morning or evening but ASAP.


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## wtxs

zepedawingchun said:


> HLF. . . . . .wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, *wrong ! ! ! ! Go back and read what I wrote again! *That is not the way you do it. The punch is incorrect.  Play the video, and look at what you're doing and tell me if that makes sense to you.  Now find a video on Youtube where someone is using tan da and tell me if you see anyone doing tan da like what you are doing.



Chill out before you pull all your hair out ... push away from the PC and get an cold one from the frig man.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

wtxs said:


> Chill out before you pull all your hair out ... push away from the PC and get an cold one from the frig man.



True , need to chill.


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## Domino

This video is private, just keep on doing what you're doing, you need to read up using the correct books and research a little more it seems.
I appreciate what people are saying to you but thats just negative and too easy to say, not the martial way, doesn't seem like you have many options though.


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## wtxs

Domino said:


> This video is private, just keep on doing what you're doing, you need to read up using the correct books and research a little more it seems.
> I appreciate what people are saying to you but thats just negative and too easy to say, not the martial way, doesn't seem like you have many options though.



Any thing you put into the cloud (the web) will be subject for all to see and to be and will be  dissected ... no such thing as privacy.

I commend HLF for his persistent and his willingness to accept criticism be it positive or negative.  However, he has to be a lot more diligent in implementing the advises given and make the necessary recommended corrections.

You're right, without and qualify teacher, his option is limited.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

That last Tan da vid was just too horrible to watch. Here one after today's post session.


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> That last Tan da vid was just too horrible to watch. Here one after today's post session.



Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, *wrong ! ! !* That is tan da, yes (a bit sloppy and not simultaneous) but that's not the way the drill (I gave you) is supposed to go. You don't tan da to the inside of your partner's arm. It should be on the outside of their arm, like the original tan drill. Go back and re-read it again.

Hint, the punch should be sliding right along side (side by side) with the tan sao. When the tan da is done, the punching hand should retract back to the wu sao (guard) position. So try it again.

And the reason I yell is so you realize you should never do what you're doing again, should you consider it.

P.S. I am chilled, I just want him to get stressed about doing it wrong so he'll try harder.


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## geezer

zepedawingchun said:


> Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, *wrong ! ! !* That is tan da, yes (a bit sloppy and not simultaneous) but that's not the way the drill (I gave you) is supposed to go... And the reason I yell is so you realize you should never do what you're doing again, should you consider it.
> 
> P.S. I am chilled, I just want him to get stressed about doing it wrong so he'll try harder.



_ZepedaWC_ you are a patient man... but even a patient man has a limit! Anyway this clip (and your response) just reinforces the point I was trying to make to _Haris_ earlier. Any competent instructor could show him this drill in a few minutes. Instead, he has practiced incorrectly for days, I'd bet. Now it will just take that much longer to unlearn these bad habits and get it right. 

Haris, _dude! _what's your time worth? Locate an instructor, send him a plane ticket and get him to train you for a few days. At least that way you'll have a solid foundation to build on.


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## zepedawingchun

geezer said:


> _ZepedaWC_ you are a patient man... but even a patient man has a limit! Anyway this clip (and your response) just reinforces the point I was trying to make to _Haris_ earlier. Any competent instructor could show him this drill in a few minutes. Instead, he has practiced incorrectly for days, I'd bet. Now it will just take that much longer to unlearn these bad habits and get it right.
> 
> Haris, _dude! _what's your time worth? Locate an instructor, send him a plane ticket and get him to train you for a few days. At least that way you'll have a solid foundation to build on.



Thank you Geezer. Yes, you are correct, this drill is learned in one session (class) and has the students understanding the concept of using only the elbow to move your hand positions almost immediately. I am patient, but the only reason I continue with this is so HLF will see it is too difficult and time consumng to do it by using the internet. I know he feels he has no choice but to do it this way. However, I feel if he really wanted it that bad, he'd make the effort to find someone and train with them. It doesn't matter how often, once a week, once a month, several times a year, anything would be better than how he is going about it right now. That's how I did it, I travelled to my Sifu (and continue to do so) for private lesson, seminars he was giving (within a couple hundred miles), and just did whatever I could to get the training (investing time, money, commitment).

So HLF, if you really want this, and I mean *REALLY* want it, you have to make sacrifices. You have to make the time, get the money, make the commitment to find a WC Sifu and get the proper training to do this art. You don't get something for nothing and anything worth doing is worth doing right. For the time you've spent so far, you would be much, *MUCH* further along than where you are at right now. If you have a couple of friends who are also interested in learning Wing Chun, you could most likely chip in together (money and transportation) to visit a Sifu for a private lesson once a month (on a Saturday or something like that) or every other month, and start from scratch. You might even get to video your lessons so you could take it back and review, to refresh your memory of what you were told to do in said lessons (I did that when I first trained with my current Sifu, me and a couple firends chipped money in for lessons, rode together and visited once a month, video'ed lessons). When I started, I'm sure I wasn't much older than you, was married and had a job, a house, a child, and several other commitments, but still found the time and money and made the effort to train with my Sifu and with my gung fu brothers when we returned.

HLF, you won't get much better, skill wise, by doing it the way you are doing it now. So stop wasting your time and do something about it. Talk to your friends, talk to anyone, everyone, put the word out you want to see a Sifu on a regular basis and see if someone else would do the same. In this day and age, there are plenty of ways to make connections to find people who want to do what you want to do, train in Wing Chun, but have no one nearby to teach them. There's this forum, FaceBook, Twitter, you name it. There is bound to be a few other people living near you who would commit to travelling once a month, or whatever, for proper, serious training in this art. You just have to start searching and find them. Look at it this way, you found us. And we're scattered all over the world, are we not?

HLF, where do you live? I live in Spartanburg, SC, in the USA. I'm not sure where you live, but I know it's not local to me. And you and I have talked with other members from another part of the United States, Europe, Asia, China, Australia, Canada, you name it. So with a little effort, I'm sure you could find someone in your area who may have an interest in making an effort in receiving lessons or training in Wing Chun. At least once a month. So do it.


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## yak sao

zepedawingchun said:


> Thank you Geezer. Yes, you are correct, this drill is learned in one session (class) and has the students understanding the concept of using only the elbow to move your hand positions almost immediately. I am patient, but the only reason I continue with this is so HLF will see it is too difficult and time consumng to do it by using the internet. I know he feels he has no choice but to do it this way. However, I feel if he really wanted it that bad, he'd make the effort to find someone and train with them. It doesn't matter how often, once a week, once a month, several times a year, anything would be better than how he is going about it right now. That's how I did it, I travelled to my Sifu (and continue to do so) for private lesson, seminars he was giving (within a couple hundred miles), and just did whatever I could to get the training (investing time, money, commitment).
> 
> So HLF, if you really want this, and I mean *REALLY* want it, you have to make sacrifices. You have to make the time, get the money, make the commitment to find a WC Sifu and get the proper training to do this art. You don't get something for nothing and anything worth doing is worth doing right. For the time you've spent so far, you would be much, *MUCH* further along than where you are at right now. If you have a couple of friends who are also interested in learning Wing Chun, you could most likely chip in together (money and transportation) to visit a Sifu for a private lesson once a month (on a Saturday or something like that) or every other month, and start from scratch. You might even get to video your lessons so you could take it back and review, to refresh your memory of what you were told to do in said lessons (I did that when I first trained with my current Sifu, me and a couple firends chipped money in for lessons, rode together and visited once a month, video'ed lessons). When I started, I'm sure I wasn't much older than you, was married and had a job, a house, a child, and several other commitments, but still found the time and money and made the effort to train with my Sifu and with my gung fu brothers when we returned.
> 
> HLF, you won't get much better, skill wise, by doing it the way you are doing it now. So stop wasting your time and do something about it. Talk to your friends, talk to anyone, everyone, put the word out you want to see a Sifu on a regular basis and see if someone else would do the same. In this day and age, there are plenty of ways to make connections to find people who want to do what you want to do, train in Wing Chun, but have no one nearby to teach them. There's this forum, FaceBook, Twitter, you name it. There is bound to be a few other people living near you who would commit to travelling once a month, or whatever, for proper, serious training in this art. You just have to start searching and find them. Look at it this way, you found us. And we're scattered all over the world, are we not?
> 
> HLF, where do you live? I live in Spartanburg, SC, in the USA. I'm not sure where you live, but I know it's not local to me. And you and I have talked with other members from another part of the United States, Europe, Asia, China, Australia, Canada, you name it. So with a little effort, I'm sure you could find someone in your area who may have an interest in making an effort in receiving lessons or training in Wing Chun. At least once a month. So do it.




HLF, for God's sake, listen to zepeda, we've all been trying to tell you that you will never get WC without a flesh and blood teacher.
Even if by some miracle, you were able to mimic the movements flawlessly, your WC would still be an empty shell without substance.
Kind of like one of those old Hollywood movie sets. They look good, but when you get behind them there's nothing there.
No one's trying to steal your dream, but at the same time, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

geezer said:


> _ZepedaWC_ you are a patient man... but even a patient man has a limit! Anyway this clip (and your response) just reinforces the point I was trying to make to _Haris_ earlier. Any competent instructor could show him this drill in a few minutes. Instead, he has practiced incorrectly for days, I'd bet. Now it will just take that much longer to unlearn these bad habits and get it right.
> 
> Haris, _dude! _what's your time worth? Locate an instructor, send him a plane ticket and get him to train you for a few days. At least that way you'll have a solid foundation to build on.



time is money as they say and i've located a representative of EBmas in turkey but i havent got in touch with him yet.... on the other hand i haven't been practicing the drill to oblivion because it is quite obvious that i am unsure of what the drill should look like, the one Mr.Z gave me so i try it and upload it and if it is correct then i will practice it hard , so i'm gonna try it again today and if it is correct then i will practice it.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Coffee time!


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## yak sao

Fantastic.....good luck with your training.
Long distance training can be a bit discouraging at times, but keep your core group together and don't quit and one day you'll turn around and realize you've made a lot of progress.


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## zepedawingchun

Hey HLF, where do you live?


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## tenzen

Zepeda he lives in pakistan.I gave up on this thread awhile ago because after months we haven't completed the first full class with this guy. Online training is impossible to be done correctly.Faisal good luck man, get in contact with the guy in turkey if that's your closest option.


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## geezer

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> time is money as they say and i've located a representative of EBmas in turkey* but i havent got in touch with him yet....*



OK, that's a start. Now cut the fantasy training, sit down and email him *right now. *Next, if you want to get a head start, go check out what EBMAS has got on youtube. Also, since Emin learned Yip Man lineage as interpreted by Leung Ting, through Keith Kernspecht of the EWTO (European Wing Tsun Organization) check out their websites and any videos on Youtube. Try these for starters:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTE3Nzk2OTY4.html
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTE3Nzk4Mzk2.html

In case you had trouble watching either of those in their entirety (I had some trouble with pop-up adds), here's the Siu Nim Tau form again on Youtube, as it was shown On Leung Ting's "Authentic Wing Tsun" video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJZ9dXiLM7s&feature=related

Ok, here's the WT _Siu Nim Tau_ being demonstrated by some unknown mid-level student. This version seems to be what the WT, EWTO and EBMAS people are doing these days. You will see some minor adjustments in the hand positioning of some movements, and the addition of more punches at the close. The chain punches at the end can be done as three (the way I was taught) five, or more. In fact, you can continue with as many as you want (say one or two hundred in a row). This last method is used by some instructors as a _warm-up drill_ at the beginning of their classes.






To conclude, I posted these clips because they are close to what EBMAS will be teaching if that's the system you are going with. Whatever you choose, _*pick one system, one real-life sifu, and stick with it for a while*_, otherwise you are just learning a mish-mash of stuff cobbled together. Now get back to that email and line up a teacher. _*NOW!*_


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## zepedawingchun

tenzen said:


> Zepeda he lives in pakistan.I gave up on this thread awhile ago because after months we haven't completed the first full class with this guy. Online training is impossible to be done correctly.Faisal good luck man, get in contact with the guy in turkey if that's your closest option.



I know online training is impossible.  But I was hoping a light bulb would go off in his head and he see it for himself.  But I guess not.  HLF claims to have been doing some WC training 8 months before he came to the forum (if you read back to some of his first posts).  With that amount of time, and the time he's been on the forum, if he had spent it with a live sifu, he could be into or past the beginning stages of chi sao.  Instead, he's not even past the first month's basic training (at least in my school).  The cheap *** students blinding desire to get something for free, instead of making a real effort with a live sifu to learn, always sets them back farther then they realize.  Plus, they really get no where with it and eventually it turns into a waste of their time.  They just don't get it sometimes, do they?


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

i felt like i had chosen a particular lineage and i felt like i could make this work despite the obvious setbacks ... hell i won't lie i still feel like i can make this work ... but cut me some slack its hard to read and then translate into real life , but i think now i finally get the drill that you spoke about practiced it and i'm gonna record it and upload it on the channel as a means of keeping track ... One thing about me , i've seen some impossible situations in my life , real nasty stuff that would scare people into wanting out , but i find that as long as you persevere you amount to something in the end. Experience , it makes you stronger Mr.Z and i had already chosen a lineage too bad i can't study it if i go with the EBMAS option which you want me to do?


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Because Mr.Z the criticism you gave made alot of sense to me is all i'm saying.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> Because Mr.Z the criticism you gave made alot of sense to me is all i'm saying.



So i'm willing to pay via some online method if you could perhaps make some sort of online thing work , like maybe a video lesson for certain excercises etc.


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## zepedawingchun

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> So i'm willing to pay via some online method if you could perhaps make some sort of online thing work , like maybe a video lesson for certain excercises etc.



I give up, I see you still don't get the point.  That's part of what we'e talking about, video taping and attempting to learn through online or otherwise, doesn't work, it will never work.  Everybody thinks because you pay money, then it's okay.  Just because you pay money for it doesn't change the fact that training through video tapes, onlne, etc, is flawed, it's all one sided, there is no interaction between the teacher and the student, no proper correction, no sense of touch or feel (which is very important in learning WC), no way of knowing if you're doing everything right or wrong.  Yeah, it may look like what is being taught on the video, but that doesn't mean it's correct.  Interaction with a human being the the only way to learn this system.  Period.  No if, ands, or buts.  Without the touch and guidance of a trained WC person, you are wasting your time.


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