# Cross Choke from Mount (vid)



## Ybot (Jul 8, 2019)

Hey all. I haven't been on the forums in some time. Looking to become more active in the online communities again. Anyway, thought I'd share the technique that is foundational to my entire mount game.


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## Buka (Jul 8, 2019)

Welcome back, Ybot.


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## Ybot (Jul 9, 2019)

Buka said:


> Welcome back, Ybot.


Thank you. I am planning on making more videos. Is there any technique or position you think people would want to see done in a similar style?


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## Gweilo (Jul 9, 2019)

Just a quick question about this choke hold, the camera angle does not show the side of your opponents hand that tapped, what is protecting your left side ribs, whilst you are applying the choke, from your opponents right fist, I could not see if you trapped the arm, until the choke was on, or your opponents right arm is free throughout the technique.


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## Headhunter (Jul 9, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Just a quick question about this choke hold, the camera angle does not show the side of your opponents hand that tapped, what is protecting your left side ribs, whilst you are applying the choke, from your opponents right fist, I could not see if you trapped the arm, until the choke was on, or your opponents right arm is free throughout the technique.


It's jiu jitsu


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## Buka (Jul 9, 2019)

Ybot said:


> Thank you. I am planning on making more videos. Is there any technique or position you think people would want to see done in a similar style?



I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll watch and learn from anything you want to post. I'd love to see anything from the mount.

But in particular what I would like to see - is anything from when you have somebody in closed guard. I love closed guard.
There's a collar choke I learned from closed guard a long time ago, but I can't seem to find it anywhere and never knew it's proper name.....or if it even has one. It's where you make them post, then trap one of their arms and grab the opposite collar. Then with your other arm grab the collar by the back of their neck and slip your arm over their head to the other side of their neck.

I love that choke, always have. Do you know which one I'm talking about? If so, can you post it?


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## Gweilo (Jul 9, 2019)

@Headhunter Are you saying Jiu jitsu  folk don't protect thre liver?


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## Gweilo (Jul 9, 2019)

Buka said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll watch and learn from anything you want to post. I'd love to see anything from the mount.
> 
> But in particular what I would like to see - is anything from when you have somebody in closed guard. I love closed guard.
> There's a collar choke I learned from closed guard a long time ago, but I can't seem to find it anywhere and never knew it's proper name.....or if it even has one. It's where you make them post, then trap one of their arms and grab the opposite collar. Then with your other arm grab the collar by the back of their neck and slip your arm over their head to the other side of their neck.
> ...


Sounds like the hold commonly known as the baseball bat grip, right hand knuckles under the collar, left hand knuckles out side of collar, pull the shirt tight, keep arms straight, make the elbows meet for air choke, or keep arms straight, turm 180 degrees for blood choke?


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## Buka (Jul 9, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Sounds like the hold commonly known as the baseball bat grip, right hand knuckles under the collar, left hand knuckles out side of collar, pull the shirt tight, keep arms straight, make the elbows meet for air choke, or keep arms straight, turm 180 degrees for blood choke?



Sort of, yeah. It's a baseball choke, but it's done from the bottom when you have someone in your closed guard. And you wrap one of their arms. I need that arm wrapped because we strike when we grapple as that was what was taught to us by the first jits guys we ever worked with back in pre UFC days.

Been thankful for them ever since. I just can't find that damn choke anywhere. Or if it actually has a name.


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## wab25 (Jul 9, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Are you saying Jiu jitsu folk don't protect thre liver?


I think what he means is that the position itself protects the liver. Sure the guy on the bottom can reach up and touch the guys ribs and liver... but he can't generate any power in those strikes. They would be arm punches only... it would be very hard to even engage much of the shoulder. Would they be annoying? Sure. Would they do much damage? I doubt it. The guy on the bottom would most likely learn how annoying those punches really were through the gentleness (or lack thereof) of the applied choke.


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## Gweilo (Jul 9, 2019)

There is a hold used in Hapkido and Aikido,  where you draw the arm across the throat, and use the legs to pull them in to from the triangle to induce a blood hold, but the arms are free when the choke is applied.


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## Gweilo (Jul 9, 2019)

wab25 said:


> I think what he means is that the position itself protects the liver. Sure the guy on the bottom can reach up and touch the guys ribs and liver... but he can't generate any power in those strikes. They would be arm punches only... it would be very hard to even engage much of the shoulder. Would they be annoying? Sure. Would they do much damage? I doubt it. The guy on the bottom would most likely learn how annoying those punches really were through the gentleness (or lack thereof) of the applied choke.



IMHO,  when the tap comes, the tap is to the rear of the ribs, I believe this is enough space to attack the liver or lower ribs.


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## wab25 (Jul 9, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> IMHO, when the tap comes, the tap is to the rear of the ribs, I believe this is enough space to attack the liver or lower ribs.


If they have a knife or other type of weapon... then that would be an issue. If it is strictly hand to hand, then all it would amount to, would be a more annoying tap with a fist than with a hand.


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## Headhunter (Jul 9, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> @Headhunter Are you saying Jiu jitsu  folk don't protect thre liver?


No I'm saying Brazilian jiu jitsu doesn't use punches so need to protect the liver


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## Headhunter (Jul 9, 2019)

wab25 said:


> I think what he means is that the position itself protects the liver. Sure the guy on the bottom can reach up and touch the guys ribs and liver... but he can't generate any power in those strikes. They would be arm punches only... it would be very hard to even engage much of the shoulder. Would they be annoying? Sure. Would they do much damage? I doubt it. The guy on the bottom would most likely learn how annoying those punches really were through the gentleness (or lack thereof) of the applied choke.


No I'm saying bjj doesn't have any striking so there's no need to worry about that


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## Gweilo (Jul 9, 2019)

If it was the left hand side, I would agree, but not the right hand side, I would rather take a full on smack to the solar plex, rather than a good strike to the liver,  a knuckle strike or a phoenix eye punch to the liver can be delivered, from a very short distance, even a palm strike to the liver is crippling, and with a tap to the rear of the ribs, leaves the kidneys open to a hammer fist.all hurt, and all are game enders, all can be acheived from short distance.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 9, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> No I'm saying bjj doesn't have any striking so there's no need to worry about that


Sport BJJ competition doesn’t include strikes. BJJ the martial art does include both using and defending against strikes. (Strikes are primarily used to set up grappling, but they do exist in the art.)




Gweilo said:


> If it was the left hand side, I would agree, but not the right hand side, I would rather take a full on smack to the solar plex, rather than a good strike to the liver,  a knuckle strike or a phoenix eye punch to the liver can be delivered, from a very short distance, even a palm strike to the liver is crippling, and with a tap to the rear of the ribs, leaves the kidneys open to a hammer fist.all hurt, and all are game enders, all can be acheived from short distance.


The liver and kidneys are good targets for strikes, but I can guarantee you’re not ending the game with an unarmed strike to the liver from bottom of mount. You don’t have the right angle, leverage, or ability to use your legs and body to provide power. You especially aren’t going to do appreciable damage before the top person chokes you out (or just retaliates with his own strikes, which will be much more powerful). 

Watch any MMA fight where a fighter tries to punch from bottom of mount. I don’t think you’ll find any examples of the bottom fighter doing significant damage with a strike to the liver or kidneys.


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## Gweilo (Jul 9, 2019)

Watch both videos, video number 1






Video number 2


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## drop bear (Jul 9, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> @Headhunter Are you saying Jiu jitsu  folk don't protect thre liver?



How quickly do you think up punching a person's liver works?


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## drop bear (Jul 9, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> If it was the left hand side, I would agree, but not the right hand side, I would rather take a full on smack to the solar plex, rather than a good strike to the liver,  a knuckle strike or a phoenix eye punch to the liver can be delivered, from a very short distance, even a palm strike to the liver is crippling, and with a tap to the rear of the ribs, leaves the kidneys open to a hammer fist.all hurt, and all are game enders, all can be acheived from short distance.



As opposed to downward elbows from mount?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 9, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Watch both videos, video number 1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No one is questioning the effectiveness of strikes to the liver. It’s a great target. We’re disputing the effectiveness of strikes from bottom of mount.


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## Gweilo (Jul 10, 2019)

drop bear said:


> As opposed to downward elbows from mount?


Against a half decent fighter, he would have had one or both elbows attacked, Placing his arms on the floor will give him stability, but locking the elbows, that's asking for trouble, and the space left for his opponent to move their shoulders, I am confident, I could competently strike the liver, or quickly escape or reverse the mount.


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## dunc (Jul 10, 2019)

I'm probably going to make myself unpopular here, but....
In my experience:

a) Grapplers tend to underestimate the effectiveness of non-sporting striking methods in grappling. This is because mostly their experience is based on MMA which has some limitations like gloves and disallowed targets

and

b) Non-grapplers tend to overestimate the effectiveness of non-sporting striking methods in grappling. This is because these kind of strikes really only buy you a little space and time against a skilled grappler, which is very helpful if you are also a competent grappler, but utterly useless (even counter productive) if you don't have the core skills to capitalise on this small opportunity


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 10, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Against a half decent fighter, he would have had one or both elbows attacked, Placing his arms on the floor will give him stability, but locking the elbows, that's asking for trouble, and the space left for his opponent to move their shoulders, I am confident, I could competently strike the liver, or quickly escape or reverse the mount.


That’s an interesting theory. Good news - it’s fairly easy to test. Just find a BJJ school and ask a BJJ black belt to put you in that position and see whether you are able to effectively strike or quickly escape the mount. (Discuss the striking beforehand or you may be in for some unfortunate consequences.)

I have a suspicion, based on thousands of hours of actual sparring from that position, that your confidence is misplaced. But don’t take my word for it. Go and find out for yourself.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 10, 2019)

dunc said:


> I'm probably going to make myself unpopular here, but....
> In my experience:
> 
> a) Grapplers tend to underestimate the effectiveness of non-sporting striking methods in grappling. This is because mostly their experience is based on MMA which has some limitations like gloves and disallowed targets
> ...


True, but in this case Gweilo is talking about regular “sporting” striking methods that are totally legal in MMA and normal sparring. The ideas he’s proposing have been thoroughly tested and have not fared well.


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## dunc (Jul 10, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> True, but in this case Gweilo is talking about regular “sporting” striking methods that are totally legal in MMA and normal sparring. The ideas he’s proposing have been thoroughly tested and have not fared well.



Yes I agree 
& @Gweilo - it really is easy to test, you just need someone who's got a big of experience at maintaining the mount


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2019)

dunc said:


> I'm probably going to make myself unpopular here, but....
> In my experience:
> 
> a) Grapplers tend to underestimate the effectiveness of non-sporting striking methods in grappling. This is because mostly their experience is based on MMA which has some limitations like gloves and disallowed targets
> ...


Even grapplers sometimes make that second error, when discussing defenses against positions they don't practice. I remember being taught some "defenses" from mount involving strikes that I doubt would even work in the dojo if you tried to actually use them - just not enough leverage to make them count.


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## drop bear (Jul 10, 2019)

dunc said:


> I'm probably going to make myself unpopular here, but....
> In my experience:
> 
> a) Grapplers tend to underestimate the effectiveness of non-sporting striking methods in grappling. This is because mostly their experience is based on MMA which has some limitations like gloves and disallowed targets
> ...



You can Phoenix fist the ribs from underneath in MMA though. There is no restrictions on hand shape or striking method unless you are eyegouging.


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## drop bear (Jul 10, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Against a half decent fighter, he would have had one or both elbows attacked, Placing his arms on the floor will give him stability, but locking the elbows, that's asking for trouble, and the space left for his opponent to move their shoulders, I am confident, I could competently strike the liver, or quickly escape or reverse the mount.



Yeah. But you just 12 to 6 elbow from there.

You bring both hands out to stabilize and then just bring the elbow in to the head. 

That star fish is about the least likely time to reverse the mount.


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## drop bear (Jul 10, 2019)

Ybot said:


> Thank you. I am planning on making more videos. Is there any technique or position you think people would want to see done in a similar style?




Yeah. Do defense against liver punches from the bottom.


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## dunc (Jul 10, 2019)

drop bear said:


> You can Phoenix fist the ribs from underneath in MMA though. There is no restrictions on hand shape or striking method unless you are eyegouging.



I don't know what a phoenix fist is so can't really comment
But I can say from direct experience that there are strikes from inferior positions that aren't trained/seen in MMA that do create some space & opportunity without compromising your grappling defences

There does seem to be a bit of a mental barrier to these options in the training methods, but I'm also open to the possibility of their being more successful because they are unfamiliar


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## Ybot (Jul 10, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Just a quick question about this choke hold, the camera angle does not show the side of your opponents hand that tapped, what is protecting your left side ribs, whilst you are applying the choke, from your opponents right fist, I could not see if you trapped the arm, until the choke was on, or your opponents right arm is free throughout the technique.





Gweilo said:


> @Headhunter Are you saying Jiu jitsu  folk don't protect thre liver?





Gweilo said:


> IMHO,  when the tap comes, the tap is to the rear of the ribs, I believe this is enough space to attack the liver or lower ribs.





Gweilo said:


> If it was the left hand side, I would agree, but not the right hand side, I would rather take a full on smack to the solar plex, rather than a good strike to the liver,  a knuckle strike or a phoenix eye punch to the liver can be delivered, from a very short distance, even a palm strike to the liver is crippling, and with a tap to the rear of the ribs, leaves the kidneys open to a hammer fist.all hurt, and all are game enders, all can be acheived from short distance.


I think you misunderstand the context of this choke. I really meant this as a sporting Jiu-Jitsu technique. We are both wearing gis (which is more ideal for the application of this choke, though it can be modified for street clothes).

That said, even in a street fight I'm not particularly concerned. There is little chance that from the position under my mount that my opponent would be able to generate enough power to do any serious damage. And should, by chance, he was able to hurt me from there, I think you misunderstand what a terrible idea it would be to even try to hurt me from bottom mount. If this were a street fight yours have to understand that I'm being exceptionally generous by attaching the choke at all. If I was hit with a liver shot hard enough to hurt me and I got mad enough, I'm in an exceptionally strong position to rearrange my opponents face permenantly with my forearm and elbow, and I have both gravity and hip rotation in my side for creating power, two things the guy on the bottom never had.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 10, 2019)

Just adding to Ybot’s explanation (which I totally agree with)...

In the context of an actual fight, the classic BJJ doctrine would be to achieve the mount, inflict damage with strikes from top mount _first_, and _then_ go for the choke or armlock.


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## Buka (Jul 10, 2019)

Heh, heh, heh. God, I love this.


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## Danny T (Jul 10, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just adding to Ybot’s explanation (which I totally agree with)...
> 
> In the context of an actual fight, the classic BJJ doctrine would be to achieve the mount, inflict damage with strikes from top mount _first_, and _then_ go for the choke or armlock.


Yeap...so many think BJJ has no striking. And in competition only training that may well be so and there are a lot of competition only schools out there. Just as in Judo most think there is no striking in Judo. Judo has it however, it is not allowed in competition.


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