# Is it possible to be good at wing chun...



## guy b. (Sep 8, 2015)

...and fighting without doing gloved sparring?

Discuss.


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## drop bear (Sep 8, 2015)

How would you know if you were good?


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## wckf92 (Sep 8, 2015)

More importantly, what is your definition of "good"??????????????


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## geezer (Sep 8, 2015)

guy b. said:


> ...and fighting without doing gloved sparring?



Wait a minute, Guy.... knowing you to be an advocate of _bare knuckle sparring_, I have to ask for clarification here. Do you mean to ask if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting _without any contact sparring at all?_ Or, are you asking if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting while sparring without gloves, _just training without protective gear?_

My response is that you can get good at forms, movement, and chi-sau without much contact, but if you are going be good at the core of the art, which is self defense and fighting, you are going to have to spar with some contact. I know you find gloves to be limiting and counter-productive.  Your arguments have some merit. On the other hand gloves and gear allow contact to a wider range of targets with greater safety, making it possible to spar more often and without injuries that can set you back.


In other words... I don't have a definitive answer. Heck, as I said at the start, I don't even know if I understand the question!     ...Oh well, carry on.


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## geezer (Sep 8, 2015)

drop bear said:


> How would you know if you were good?


If there's no contact training at all? Well then.... Imagination!


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## wckf92 (Sep 8, 2015)

geezer said:


> Wait a minute, Guy.... knowing you to be an advocate of _bare knuckle sparring_, I have to ask for clarification here. Do you mean to ask if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting _without any contact sparring at all?_ Or, are you asking if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting while sparring without gloves, _just training without protective gear?_
> 
> My response is that you can get good at forms, movement, and chi-sau without much contact, but if you are going be good at the core of the art, which is self defense and fighting, you are going to have to spar with some contact. I know you find gloves to be limiting and counter-productive.  Your arguments have some merit. On the other hand gloves and gear allow contact to a wider range of targets with greater safety, making it possible to spar more often and without injuries that can set you back.
> 
> ...



I think he is asking: "Or, are you asking if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting while sparring without gloves, _just training without protective gear?"... however, the word "sparring" is what (I think) Guy takes issue with... as well as all the pads and protection most kwoon training sessions maximize in their pursuit of the so-called elusive "fighting" art of wing Chun... _


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## wckf92 (Sep 8, 2015)

drop bear said:


> How would you know if you were good?



...still standing at the end?


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## geezer (Sep 8, 2015)

wckf92 said:


> ...still standing at the end?


That's for Guy and his bare-knuckle buddies. I'll sit back and watch. ...er No, can't do that either because he won't post videos. Which is OK. I can always go watch those Irish Travelers duking it out on Youtube. Or good ole Kimbo.






Now I've got a bit of Irish blood in my ancestry. But I'd need a good bit more before I'd find that kind of stuff fun for recreation!


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## Eric_H (Sep 8, 2015)

Don't think they used gloves much back in the 17-1800s when this stuff was getting made, so it's possible.

However, part of making it so that you fulfill your potential is avoiding injury. Gloves and protective gear are just tools to do that. I really don't understand the OP's hangups about it.


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## yak sao (Sep 8, 2015)

drop bear said:


> How would you know if you were good?



Simple, just ask us....go ahead, ask me.


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## Argus (Sep 8, 2015)

geezer said:


> That's for Guy and his bare-knuckle buddies. I'll sit back and watch. ...er No, can't do that either because he won't post videos. Which is OK. I can always go watch those Irish Travelers duking it out on Youtube. Or good ole Kimbo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, call me crazy, but I think that would be a good experience! Not something I'd do often, and I'd definitely use a mouth piece, at least, as I rather like having all of my teeth, but...

Alternatively / additionally, you could just use open hand strikes to the face / chin. Though, you might run a greater risk of inadvertently eye-gouging your partner. Head gear is also a great option.

That said, I do practice very light contact sparring without gloves or equipment of any kind, and that can serve as a good compromise allowing for both safety and the use of fine motor skills. I'm referring to a kind of Gwor-sau / Lat-sau context here.

However, I think it's more productive to think in terms of *diversifying* your training. For example, one of my favorite HEMA fencers, Roland Warzecha, conducts practice with blunt weapons, masks, and protective gear, but also with blunts and without masks and protective gear, and also (in a very slow, and controlled environment) with sharps (because of the difference in binding characteristics). With less protective gear, you do need to use more caution and control. But I don't see why you can't train realistically at any level given level of intensity.


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## Danny T (Sep 8, 2015)

guy b. said:


> ...and fighting without doing gloved sparring?
> 
> Discuss.


Yes.
But I don't believe you can be very good without doing some type of fighting.
My Sifu talks of his training in Honk Kong was going to the kwoon to train and going on the streets to fight. Then back to the kwoon to discuss and work out what they did well and what to work on to be better. No sparring in training but a lot of fighting on the street.


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## Argus (Sep 8, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Yes.
> But I don't believe you can be very good without doing some type of fighting.
> My Sifu talks of his training in Honk Kong was going to the kwoon to train and going on the streets to fight. Then back to the kwoon to discuss and work out what they did well and what to work on to be better. No sparring in training but a lot of fighting on the street.



That would be the "traditional" method!


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## Danny T (Sep 9, 2015)

Argus said:


> That would be the "traditional" method!


Difficult to do so in this day and age. Today we fight (spar) vs our training partners.
Major difference is we want training partners, need training partners. When we beat up and hurt our training partners they don't return or if they do it isn't until they are healed; during that time we have lost that partner. 
Therefore we spar with safety equipment, gloves, headgear, and shinguards to prevent loss of partners and training time.


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## guy b. (Sep 9, 2015)

> Do you mean to ask if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting _without any contact sparring at all?_ Or, are you asking if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting while sparring without gloves, _just training without protective gear?_




It would be interesting to hear replies to both questions.

Specifically (for those advocating gloved sparring as the only way to reach competence in fighting)

1. Were the founders and your elders in wing chun competent fighters? 
2. If they were, how did they get that way?


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## Argus (Sep 9, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Difficult to do so in this day and age. Today we fight (spar) vs our training partners.
> Major difference is we want training partners, need training partners. When we beat up and hurt our training partners they don't return or if they do it isn't until they are healed; during that time we have lost that partner.
> Therefore we spar with safety equipment, gloves, headgear, and shinguards to prevent loss of partners and training time.



Of course. Not all that is "traditional" is productive or desirable in a modern context, and sometimes things change for the better.

I just thought it to be an interesting contrast


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2015)

Eric_H said:


> Don't think they used gloves much back in the 17-1800s when this stuff was getting made, so it's possible.
> 
> However, part of making it so that you fulfill your potential is avoiding injury. Gloves and protective gear are just tools to do that. I really don't understand the OP's hangups about it.


I wouldn't recommend gloves during training. Training without gloves helps to condition the hands. Gloves during sparring just depends on what type of sparring you are doing.  Some sparring can be done without gloves while other types of sparring should have gloves.  You can't train if you are injured all the time from bare knuckles damaging you.


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2015)

geezer said:


> That's for Guy and his bare-knuckle buddies. I'll sit back and watch. ...er No, can't do that either because he won't post videos. Which is OK. I can always go watch those Irish Travelers duking it out on Youtube. Or good ole Kimbo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bare knuckle boxing training from what I have seen is gloves on.


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## JPinAZ (Sep 9, 2015)

I'm not sure the OP's hang up with wearing protection when sparring. If he doesn't feel the need, great - I'm sure his dentist loves the extra money. But what does he care if other people prefer some protection when training hard/sparring?



guy b. said:


> Specifically (for those advocating gloved sparring as the only way to reach competence in fighting)



Could you clarify who is advocating that gloved sparring is the _only_ way? From what I can tell, it's only being listed my members here as _a_ way or a _preferred_ way. Let's not go putting words into other people's mouths to build straw mans here...


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## geezer (Sep 9, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> Could you clarify who is advocating that gloved sparring is the _only_ way? From what I can tell, it's only being listed my members here as _a_ way or a _preferred_ way. Let's not go putting words into other people's mouths to build straw mans here...



Yeah JP. Nobody's really arguing with Guy here. I think he hasn't quite adjusted to the more laid-back atmosphere here.

@Guy, I've never made a video for youtube because I don't even know how too, and because I don't consider myself anything special. But it can't be that hard to do considering all the idiots who do post stuff.

You really should put up a video titled *Bare-knuckle Full Contact Wing Chun. *I'm sure you'd get a lot of hits! (badda-bum)   No seriously, you'd get a lot of views and maybe make some money.

...And of course we'd all be impressed. Well, at least I would be. Not only for the guts it takes to go full out, but even more for the guts it takes to put yourself out there for people to see.


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## Vajramusti (Sep 9, 2015)

geezer said:


> Yeah JP. Nobody's really arguing with Guy here. I think he hasn't quite adjusted to the more laid-back atmosphere here.
> 
> @Guy, I've never made a video for youtube because I don't even know how too, and because I don't consider myself anything special. But it can't be that hard to do considering all the idiots who do post stuff.
> 
> ...


--------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------
A contrary but orthodox wing chun opinion: sparring with gloves is not the best way to train with a wing chun approach. Must people I see doing chi sao
could use better guidance in their chi sao. Lots of GOOD chisao and lop sao- with footwork- stepping and kicking is a good way for preparing. Was good enough for my sifu, sihings and me in real encounters. There are of course non wing chun ways.Depends on how you wan to train.


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## geezer (Sep 9, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------
> ------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------
> A contrary but orthodox wing chun opinion: sparring with gloves is not the best way to train with a wing chun approach. Must people I see doing chi sao
> could use better guidance in their chi sao. Lots of GOOD chisao and lop sao- with footwork- stepping and kicking is a good way for preparing. Was good enough for my sifu, sihings and me in real encounters. There are of course non wing chun ways.Depends on how you wan to train.



Actually, what you say works for me, Joy. Still, there's gotta be plenty of entertainment value in watching Guy and his mates beat each other up.


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## wckf92 (Sep 9, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ...Depends on how you wan to train.



Awesome statement.


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## wckf92 (Sep 9, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Difficult to do so in this day and age.



Yeah no doubt...I agree. These days...probably get arrested or whatever. Times change.
Hence in these modern, dare I say 'civilized' times, we need extremely intense and all-out pressure testing to get close to the stress and chaotic nature as we can. Obviously nothing replaces the real thing...but random / unscripted hardcore training  and situation-based scenarios help.
Lots of "McKwoon's" out there in WC-Land...busy building false sense of securities in the student population.


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## wckf92 (Sep 9, 2015)

guy b. said:


> 1. Were the founders and your elders in wing chun competent fighters?
> 2. If they were, how did they get that way?



1. Yep...at least that is what I've heard and read
2. Supposedly through field-testing what they had learned in class out on the streets and alleys...


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## Argus (Sep 9, 2015)

_*I accidentally posted this in the Pole-form thread, but intended to post it here:*_

Here we go.

I thought this would be relevant:






Geez, all of my posts have something to do with HEMA lately.


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## guy b. (Sep 10, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------
> ------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------
> A contrary but orthodox wing chun opinion: sparring with gloves is not the best way to train with a wing chun approach. Must people I see doing chi sao
> could use better guidance in their chi sao. Lots of GOOD chisao and lop sao- with footwork- stepping and kicking is a good way for preparing. Was good enough for my sifu, sihings and me in real encounters. There are of course non wing chun ways.Depends on how you wan to train.



I agree. Sparring with gloves is not the best way to train if you are training wing chun.

Wing chun was created at a time when nobody sparred with gloves at all. If you rate it as a method, and rate the skills of those who created it and who taught your teachers, teachers, teacher...etc, then why would you replace the methods they created with something different?

Training wing chun via a gloved sparring methodology is in a way a denial of the effectiveness and the method of wing chun.


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## guy b. (Sep 10, 2015)

Eric_H said:


> Don't think they used gloves much back in the 17-1800s when this stuff was getting made, so it's possible.
> 
> However, part of making it so that you fulfill your potential is avoiding injury. Gloves and protective gear are just tools to do that. I really don't understand the OP's hangups about it.



Why would you need these tools? Does the use of these tools make the current generation of wing chun better than any that came before them? Or not?


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## guy b. (Sep 10, 2015)

For those who are asking, here is my rationale for no gloved sparring in wing chun, from another thread:



> I happen to think that training with headgear (and body shields) is detrimental. Many conventional boxers, never mind wing chun people, agree with me. It blatantly throws off timing and targeting.
> 
> I also happen to think that training with gloves is detrimental for the same reason- why would it not be after all?
> 
> ...



Wing chun is a self contained method that doesn't utilise gloved sparring. Given this, why would you take everything else that wing chun does on trust, but add gloved sparring to the method? Why train a system formulated at a time when gloved sparring wasn't done and (following to the logical conclusion) fighters were not as good as they are today?


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## Danny T (Sep 10, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Why would you need these tools?


_"However, part of making it so that you fulfill your potential is avoiding injury. Gloves and protective gear are just tools to do that." _
The answer to your question is "*avoiding injury*".



guy b. said:


> Does the use of these tools make the current generation of wing chun better than any that came before them? Or not?


For some I'd say yes. 
Just as today not everyone who trained wing chun in the yester years were great. 
Maybe I'm delusional about my training and my students. I have some with excellent skills and mine are respectable. We train and practice bare knuckled but spar with safety equipment. We spar not just in rounds like a fight match but different type of street attack scenarios with full contact, throws, and take downs. We may not be to your standard of what a wing chun person should be but we can apply what we have from our wing chun training... But then maybe I'm just delusional.


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## geezer (Sep 10, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Wing chun is a self contained method that doesn't utilise gloved sparring. Given this, why would you take everything else that wing chun does on trust, but add gloved sparring to the method?



There's really nothing to be gained comparing WC students today with those of Leung Jan's period. Societal conditions are completely different, as are the reasons people choose to train today.

Gloves are just another tool, and they have their pros and cons. Everything we do has to be subjected to a sort of cost-benefit analysis. With gloves for example, even compact "UFC" style gloves, there is some awkwardness and loss stick and control. But gloves and other protective gear allow students to engage each other with a higher level of contact with reasonable confidence that they won't be injured. It's not a simple matter of right or wrong. For some the trade-off is worth it. For others, it's not.

So if traditional, unprotected sparring is what benefits you best, Guy, that's great. I think that approach would not be so appealing to some others. By contrast using gloves, especially cumbersome boxing gloves with a boxing or MMA rule-set can lead to WC that looks an awful lot like Western boxing. And a lot of us don't find that completely satisfying either --regardless of it's effectiveness.

Like I said, each approach has its own problems. Sometimes trying a variety of approaches to training is more productive.


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## guy b. (Sep 10, 2015)

geezer said:


> By contrast using gloves, especially cumbersome boxing gloves with a boxing or MMA rule-set can lead to WC that looks an awful lot like Western boxing. And a lot of us don't find that completely satisfying either --regardless of it's effectiveness.



I think with gloves it is very difficult not to end up looking like a boxer. Boking after all is the training methodology utilising gloved sparring. Attempting to be good at gloved sparring with hands only evolves an approach that looks like boxing.

Wing chun is a different training methodology. Many people train wing chun with chi sau only, or chi sau and gor sau, doing very little or no full contact at all. I think this is a better option than gloved sparring if you wish to avoid hard contact but don't want to add anything to the wing chun training methodology from outside. Fighting with body punches and palms to face is another option with bare hands that is lower contact.



> Like I said, each approach has its own problems. Sometimes trying a variety of approaches to training is more productive.



I guess I am a wing chun purist. I prefer the wing chun approach and don't like to tamper with it. I think it is a training method with a certain amount of genius involved in its creation.


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## guy b. (Sep 10, 2015)

geezer said:


> There's really nothing to be gained comparing WC students today with those of Leung Jan's period. Societal conditions are completely different, as are the reasons people choose to train today..



I think it is an interesting question for those who advocate changing the wing chun training methodology to consider. We don't need to go as far back as Leung Jan though. Yip man and those he taught didn't sprar with gloves. Were they effective at fighting? Or are we better now?


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## JPinAZ (Sep 10, 2015)

While not in direct question to me I have some thoughts on this.



guy b. said:


> I agree. Sparring with gloves is not the best way to train if you are training wing chun.



Thanks for sharing your _opinion_.

It's interesting you are now mixing 'sparring with gloves' and 'training wing chun'. You_ can_ do both - you can 'spar' with gloves (if you chose), while at the same time still 'train' (and/or spar) without them. Not everything is as black/white as you try to make them.

While I have no problem with anyone that chooses to spar full-force without gloves (as you claim), why are you so worried what other people do? Why are you so bothered/afraid that others use gloves in their training?



guy b. said:


> Wing chun was created at a time when nobody sparred with gloves at all.



Really? can you verify that?
I ask because I've seen some pretty old pictures of kung fu practitioners using gloves.
While I've seen images much older than this, here's some footage from the 30's.check out those strange, round things just past their wrists..








guy b. said:


> If you rate it as a method, and rate the skills of those who created it and who taught your teachers, teachers, teacher...etc, then why would you replace the methods they created with something different?



Who said anyone is replacing anything? Once again, I think you are just making assumption to build straw mans..



guy b. said:


> Training wing chun via a gloved sparring methodology is in a way a denial of the effectiveness and the method of wing chun.



Is this the effectiveness you are referring to? lol




Just because someone trains without gloves doesn't necessarily mean they have any skill afterwards. Can you prove the effectiveness of all of your barenuckle fighting you do, or should we take just your word for it?

To be blunt, who are you to tell other people that they are 'in denial' because they chose to use protection in their sparring? I think you need to tone it down a bit, as I don't think that type of higher-than-thou attitude is a great way to start off posting here...


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2015)

Because of the nature of Kung Fu and how it works, I can't see full force contact sparring being possible. I can see certain techniques being done full contact but not many.  A simple backfist to the face at full force without gloves (depending if power for that backfist is generated properly) can break the bone underneath the eye. I can't see a martial arts practitioner risking such damage for the sake of practicing.  This type of practice will mean that you'll spend more time healing from injuries than actual practicing. In some cased the damage may mean the end of your dream to use martial arts.

Unlike bare knuckle boxing kung fu strikes are designed to specifically aim at vulnerable places.  For example, in Jow Ga, I'm not just trying to hit someone in the head. The technique of my strike is designed to land in specific areas on the head.  If I want to hit the back of someone's head then I use one technique design to do that.  If I want to break facial bones on the front of the face then a use a completely different technique.  When someone is punching at me, my goal may be to block and avoid the punch, while another technique would be design to attack the punch for the purpose of breaking the hand.

Instructors and Sifu's don't even do full force sparring of kung fu techniques.  How would you do a full force neck break in sparring and then be ready to spar again in two weeks.

The video that JPinAZ posted doesn't even look like they were going full force.


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## JPinAZ (Sep 10, 2015)

Haha, great points.
Apparently, guyb is sparring bareknuckle full force with head shots every other week, so he must be the very rare exception to physics and logic. Either the guys he trains with aren't very good so no one is getting injured, or he must have a great dental and medical plan and heals faster than most typical humans...


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## wckf92 (Sep 10, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Instructors and Sifu's don't even do full force sparring of kung fu techniques.  How would you do a full force *neck break* in sparring and then be ready to spar again in two weeks.



Ummm.... how would you do an "half force neck break"?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2015)

wckf92 said:


> Ummm.... how would you do an "half force neck break"?


  A half force neck break would be fine, it doesn't completely break the neck lol.

After posting this, I though I better post this because I don't know who may have missed the joke since there are also some kids that come to this forum.:
I was joking because a half force neck break is just as bad, don't try it at home or in your school.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2015)

Ironically I got hit in the eye today at practice (from a bare fist). I have swelling under my eye right on the bone that's under my eye (zygomatic bone). My sparring partner pulled the punch so it didn't land with full force. It still hurts. There's no way in the world someone is going to go full force without gloves during training. We were training without gloves and I got hit with a fist because my partner did the drill wrong. Now I get to wait and see if it's going to turn into a black eye tomorrow.


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## yak sao (Sep 10, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Now I get to wait and see if it's going to turn into a black eye tomorrow.



Let's hope so...there's nothing cooler than a big ol' shiner.


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## Jake104 (Sep 10, 2015)

IMO, This is a silly conversation. Who really cares? I don't. In our group we can train and make it work with or without gear. Maybe even on one leg and with one arm tied behind our back. It doesn't matter and really doesn't change anything.  Effective is effective regardless of protection. Using protection is more about preventing injury.


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## The Great Gigsy (Sep 10, 2015)

There are many ways to go about sparring and each type comes with its own benefits. Most of our sparring is done with gloves but my sifu like too mix it up from time, so sometimes we use mma gloves or bare hands it hust depends on what yhe goal is that day. I would like to think that if you can successfully get past your partner's guard with gloves landing effect strikes against an opponent without gloves should be easier.


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## Jake104 (Sep 10, 2015)

guy b. said:


> I think it is an interesting question for those who advocate changing the wing chun training methodology to consider. We don't need to go as far back as Leung Jan though. Yip man and those he taught didn't sprar with gloves. Were they effective at fighting? Or are we better now?


Nobody's advocating changing WC. Back then nobody wore motorcycle helmets and now almost everybody does. Does the wind in your hair change the way you ride? If anything, I ride like more of a champ with a helmet on, cause I know my brain will remain intact if I dump it.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Let's hope so...there's nothing cooler than a big ol' shiner.


I broke the end of my pinky finger today as well if that counts.  I have a hollow bone in that finger so it breaks easily. I forgot that and put it in harms way. Now my left hand gets to have 3 months of doing nothing until it heals. So much for me sparring this Saturday.


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## LFJ (Sep 11, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Ironically I got hit in the eye today at practice (from a bare fist). I have swelling under my eye right on the bone that's under my eye (zygomatic bone). My sparring partner pulled the punch so it didn't land with full force. It still hurts. There's no way in the world someone is going to go full force without gloves during training. We were training without gloves and I got hit with a fist because my partner did the drill wrong. Now I get to wait and see if it's going to turn into a black eye tomorrow.



Hell, a few years ago I was horsing around very lightly and got caught with a little flicking backhand that came around like a hook and it broke my freaking nose! Yet, guy b. claims to be taking full contact bareknuckle punches straight to the face and it only results in minor cuts?

Just a couple days ago a friend got into with someone who rushed on him all angry faced, nostrils flared, and fists up.  He extend his left arm to gauge distance and tell him not to enter his space. When the guy's chest touched his left hand he threw one well placed Ving Tsun punch and dropped the guy. That single punch broke the guy's jaw and sent him to the hospital for surgery. And now he has a court date next month and may be looking at jail time for a felony offense.

And yet we have guy b. here saying he takes full contact bareknuckle punches in the face every two weeks just as part of normal training, and he calls everyone else delusional and in denial for training with gloves. Okay.


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## guy b. (Sep 11, 2015)

It is interesting how many people call me a liar outright when I bring up this topic. This just tells me they don't ever train bare handed. Which is a shame because it is extremely beneficial.  

Gloves do not reduce the frequency of broken bones in my experience, unless you are talking about untrained hand bones. Learning to protect your hands is a good reason to fight without gloves. It is just as easy to break an orbital bone or a nose with mma gloves on. 

Gloves also damage the ability to acquire target, timing, distancing, power generation without gloves, and various other things. They are extremely bad for wing chun, which already has a training methodology that doesn't use gloves. 

The reason that broken faces occur a lot in street encounters or messing around is that the participants are not prepared in terms of bracing and guard for being hit. It is very easy to cause massive damage to an unprepared adversary with a sucker punch or an accidental blow. In boxing kos, damage and death occur from the punches that don't get seen. Sparring bare handed is an enlightening experience in terms of understanding the damage that you are likely to be able to do in different kinds of situation.


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## LFJ (Sep 11, 2015)

guy b. said:


> It is interesting how many people call me a liar outright when I bring up this topic. This just tells me they don't ever train bare handed. Which is a shame because it is extremely beneficial.



Nope. I train barehanded too and agree it's essential. But what you're talking about is taking full contact bareknuckle punches straight to the face. And you think bracing yourself for it is going to save your face from getting broken? It sounds like you've never been punched or punched anyone else before. 

You're either training with kindergarteners, or you're completely confused as to what full contact is and what you're doing is actually far from it.


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## guy b. (Sep 11, 2015)

> And you think bracing yourself for it is going to save your face from getting broken? It sounds like you've never been punched or punched anyone else before.



On the contrary, I do it regularly and my face is fine. Your ignorance on this betrays your real lack of experience. It is telling that all of the proponents of gloves claim to do bare hand as well, but then don't seem to know what it is like. See videos of full contact bare knuckle for examples. Many are available. 

It actually doesn't break your face more than any other kind of full contact sparring. It breaks hands pretty well if they aren't trained for it. And it causes cuts. I don't look any different doing full contact without gloves every few weeks than I used to look doing MT sparring. Some bruises and scrapes. Slightly more cuts. I wear a gumshield to minimise tooth damage as I would for any other sparring. 

In the days of bareknuckle boxing, fights used to go on for tens of rounds and were generally wars of attrition. This is because hands are softer than heads. Any prepared person with a modicum of skill is very difficult to hurt with punches they see. This is why grappling is so successful in ring sports like mma.


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## LFJ (Sep 11, 2015)

You told me you were taking full contact bareknuckle punches _straight to the face_ and only sustaining minor cuts at worst because apparently you see every shot thrown at you and brace yourself...  

Your nose must be smelling your ear by now, or you're indeed fighting kindergarteners, or your training partners just have fists of tofu.

Controlled bareknuckle sparring is fine, but full contact bareknuckle sparring as regular training is idiotic, no one but you claims to do it, and you're unwilling to post your own clips of it.


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## guy b. (Sep 11, 2015)

You are just as likely to be hurt training full contact with mma gloves as you are bare handed. In fact the risk of brain trauma and facial bone breaks is lower with bare hands as the history of bare knuckle boxing shows. The risk of cuts and hand bone breaks is undoubtedly higher doing it with bare hands. I know which I prefer. 

There are many examples of bare knuckle fights in ireland and the UK on youtube. There are also many examples of Burmese bando available (which is much worse because they wrap the hands). Facial breakages are low in both. Severe knockouts of the kind seen in professional boxing are also low. You can see hands getting hurt all of the time, and you will see cuts. 

The way you hit with bare hands is also different. Without doing it regularly you will not know this and you will not be prepared to do it. 

Typical gym sparring shown as examples of contact training with gloves is very far from full contact. Simply removing the gloves will increase the intensity.

If you are getting hit hard straight in the face all of the time during sparring then I can only say that you are doing something very wrong. To be honest it doesn't sound like you spar much at all, even with gloves.

In a sparring session you are much more ready, aware and braced to receive contact than in a surprise attack or a sucker punch situation. This is blatantly obvious. Sparring with friends also entails stopping when one of you gets caught with a hard shot, not proceeding to follow up as they fall over, and not stamping on their head as they lie on the ground. Again obvious.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2015)

guy b. said:


> In fact the risk of brain trauma and facial bone breaks is lower with bare hands as the history of bare knuckle boxing shows.


I want to see a video of you going full force bare knuckle sparring


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2015)

guy b. said:


> There are many examples of bare knuckle fights in ireland and the UK on youtube. There are also many examples of Burmese bando available (which is much worse because they wrap the hands). Facial breakages are low in both. Severe knockouts of the kind seen in professional boxing are also low. You can see hands getting hurt all of the time, and you will see cuts.


 You tube also has street fights with people without gloves knocking each other out


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## LFJ (Sep 11, 2015)

He won't do it. He just wants to act tougher than everyone else without having to substantiate it. He'll post fights (not of him and not VT), but ignore how intelligent people train for fights. I'm pretty sure he just posts to hear himself talking tough so he feels superior somehow.

He also wasn't just talking bareknuckle vs gloved, but headgear and other protective gear. Full contact sparring can be done with headgear to avoid serious cuts and broken noses, and I think it's an exaggeration to say it screws up distance to any substantial degree. After all, you should be sparring without headgear enough to know your distance so that headgear is just protection for when the intensity is turned up.

The only thing I agree with is that large boxing gloves are a detriment to the tight lines used in VT tactics, but if guy b.'s VT doesn't even work with light gloves on, then I guess winter would be the season to rob him.


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## Danny T (Sep 11, 2015)

#1 - Training is not sparring. Training is learning and developing. Practice is repetitively working the material to ingrain it. Sparring is bringing the training (your learning) and practice (the repetitions) into a testing mode. Proving it out under fight like conditions. It is not actually fighting.
#2 - Going full force in sparring is foolish.
#3 - My group 'trains' everything we do except Muay Thai bare handed. We practice the same. We practice hitting focus pads and wall bags (we don't practice by hitting someones face). We spar hard but controlled and with safety in mind.
#4 - As to being a wing chun purist, please tell us just what does that mean. After all wing chun itself isn't pure having had several modifications or additions to it over the years.
#5 - As to other arts like Muay Thai, Muay Baron, and others from that area of the world's bare knuckle fighting systems; They do very little sparring. A lot of training, practicing, and fighting but very little sparring. Why, because the fighters get Hurt and can't train for their next fight.


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## Mephisto (Sep 11, 2015)

guy b. said:


> On the contrary, I do it regularly and my face is fine. Your ignorance on this betrays your real lack of experience. It is telling that all of the proponents of gloves claim to do bare hand as well, but then don't seem to know what it is like. See videos of full contact bare knuckle for examples. Many are available.
> 
> It actually doesn't break your face more than any other kind of full contact sparring. It breaks hands pretty well if they aren't trained for it. And it causes cuts. I don't look any different doing full contact without gloves every few weeks than I used to look doing MT sparring. Some bruises and scrapes. Slightly more cuts. I wear a gumshield to minimise tooth damage as I would for any other sparring.
> 
> In the days of bareknuckle boxing, fights used to go on for tens of rounds and were generally wars of attrition. This is because hands are softer than heads. Any prepared person with a modicum of skill is very difficult to hurt with punches they see. This is why grappling is so successful in ring sports like mma.


Can you share some of your sparring video?


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## geezer (Sep 11, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Can you share some of your sparring video?



Guy says he doesn't do video. I don't either. But I should start...not so I can post it but to watch and critique myself.  Watching yourself on video can be really useful in spotting and correcting problems. That's why it's so widely used by coaches and trainers.

So Guy, would you even consider doing some video of your next sparring session? It would, hopefully, elevate this discussion some.

In the meantime I guess we can just assume that LFJ is just a _wimpy-wimp with little girly nose-bones _that break when a butterfly flutters by. And, you sir Guy, are_ a big strong manly-man with robust nose-bones_, strong like the prow of a Russian icebreaker crashing through the floes in January.

http://englishrussia.com/images/022013/biggesticebreaker/biggesticebreaker001-10.jpg

Hey, did somebody put something in my coffee???  Tastes funny...


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2015)

geezer said:


> Guy says he doesn't do video. I don't either. But I should start...not so I can post it but to watch and critique myself.  Watching yourself on video can be really useful in spotting and correcting problems. That's why it's so widely used by coaches and trainers.
> 
> So Guy, would you even consider doing some video of your next sparring session? It would, hopefully, elevate this discussion some.
> 
> ...


Everyone should video themselves sparring because it will help make you better at what you do.


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## JPinAZ (Sep 11, 2015)

I really don't get this 'guy's' hang up with gloves here..


guy b. said:


> Wing chun is a different training methodology. Many people train wing chun with chi sau only, or chi sau and gor sau, doing very little or no full contact at all. I think this is a better option than gloved sparring if you wish to avoid hard contact but don't want to add anything to the wing chun training methodology from outside. Fighting with body punches and palms to face is another option with bare hands that is lower contact.



So you're saying that training (ie. drilling) using low-to-no contact _without _gloved sparring will produce _better_ fighting skills than those that also add gloved pressure testing to their training/drilling?!? Lol, do you realize how utterly stupid that logic sounds? Only someone with very little actual fight training experience would say something like that.

Why are you so afraid of people using gloves anyway? I think you're making a huge deal out of something that is really no big deal in most functional MA's. 

I'm curious, how much actual gloved sparring have you done in your WC training pror to going only-knuckle -on-skin? I'm not talking about 12-16oz boxing gloves, I'm talking about open finger/palm 8oz gloves, or even the 4oz MMA gloves?



guy b. said:


> I guess I am a wing chun purist. I prefer the wing chun approach and don't like to tamper with it. I think it is a training method with a certain amount of genius involved in its creation.



I agree that WC is quit genius in it's approach to fighting, but what exactly is 'the wing chun approach' and who said it disallows the usage of protective equipment during skill testing/sparring? Aren't you making a bigger deal out of this that it really is? I mean, we're only talking about suing some protection while sparring.. WTF!
And didn't say you use a mouth guard when you do all of your bare knuckle full-force-to-the-face sparring? I bet they didn't have those 200 years ago either, so looks like you're changing WC training methods also, Mr. Purist!!



guy b. said:


> I think it is an interesting question for those who advocate changing the wing chun training methodology to consider.



Who said anything about anyone advocating changing training methodologies? I'm curious how long exactly you actually trained under your sifu(s) to know all there is to know all there is to 'wing chun training methodologies' to come here and play expert and question what everyone else is doing?

If I recall, the last time you claimed to train under someone, they didn't even remember you. So could it be possible you just might not really understand things as well as you think?



guy b. said:


> We don't need to go as far back as Leung Jan though. Yip man and those he taught didn't sprar with gloves. Were they effective at fighting? Or are we better now?



Effectiveness then vs. now is impossible to determine, so no use going down that road. But being effective at fighting is really an individual thing. And not everyone that trained with Ip Man was necessarily a good fighter.
While we surely know that at least _some_ of Ip Man's students were out fighting with other styles, can we really verify that they were sparring while in class at all (gloves or not)? And say they were sparring, how do you know they didn't use gloves? Bruce was a student of that era, and he was a big proponent of using gloves in his training...


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## JPinAZ (Sep 11, 2015)

geezer said:


> Guy says he doesn't do video. I don't either. But I should start...not so I can post it but to watch and critique myself.  Watching yourself on video can be really useful in spotting and correcting problems. That's why it's so widely used by coaches and trainers.



Agreed, videos are a great tool to helping improve and for self critique! Maybe Guy can't video because hey, they didn't have video cameras 200 years ago, so filming himself training now would ruin all his purity lol

I think there's a difference between you and 'guy'. You aren't coming here claiming to be taking full on punches to the face every 2 weeks with little-to-no effect. Nor are you taking a higher-than-though attitude telling people they are delusional and modifying/changing the Wc system by wearing gloves during sparring. So I understand why people would ask him to put up or shut up.. I'd much prefer the latter


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## geezer (Sep 11, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> ...I think there's a difference between you and 'guy'. You aren't coming here claiming to be taking full on punches to the face every 2 weeks with little-to-no effect. Nor are you taking a higher-than-though attitude ...



Thanks, JP you've always been considerate to this old man (yours truly).

Now, @ Guy B., I have to agree. Real, authentic men don't need no stinkin' protection. Of course they didn't use that stuff back in Yip Man's time  in Hong Kong ....the 1950s. Heck, real hockey goalies right here in North America didn't even use facemasks back then either. Take Terry Sawchuck  for example. Never mind that he died at the ripe old age of 40 from complications (damaged liver) resulting from a little bare-knuckle bout with a friend.

https://timedotcom.files.wordpress....sawchuk-1966.jpg?quality=65&strip=color&w=727

...Total respect for Terry Sawchuck, R.I.P., but being one of the world's hardest "hard men" does come at a price.


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## guy b. (Sep 11, 2015)

> He just wants to act tougher than everyone else without having to substantiate it.



There is nothing particularly "tough" about training in a traditional way. It takes more physical toughness to spar several times per week with gloves according to the sports methodology. Training in that way takes it out of you in a way that traditional training does not. You should stop projecting. 



> He also wasn't just talking bareknuckle vs gloved, but headgear and other protective gear. Full contact sparring can be done with headgear to avoid serious cuts and broken noses, and I think it's an exaggeration to say it screws up distance to any substantial degree.



Many boxers and MT guys would disagree with you. Having used headgear I can say that I hate it a lot more than heavy gloves. The worst headgear I have used is daido juku helmets which train people to miss punches and to be unable to avoid punches properly, but regular boxing headgear is also awful for distancing. 



> but if guy b.'s VT doesn't even work with light gloves on



My VT will work with gloves on because I train without (i.e. I train ving tsun, a non-gloved martial art). Yours will not work if you only train with because you are training a different kind of punch and a different dynamic.


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## guy b. (Sep 11, 2015)

> So you're saying that training (ie. drilling) using low-to-no contact _without _gloved sparring will produce _better_ fighting skills than those that also add gloved pressure testing to their training/drilling?



"No full contact" does not equal only "low-to-no contact". 

Yes training chi sau and gor sau will produce better results in wing chun than training sparring with gloves, because gloves teach you to hit with gloves, and wing chun is a hitting method not designed for gloved situations.


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## guy b. (Sep 11, 2015)

> In the meantime I guess we can just assume that LFJ is just a _wimpy-wimp with little girly nose-bones _that break when a butterfly flutters by.



Sounds a bit silly. Most people are quite average, including me.


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## guy b. (Sep 11, 2015)

Danny T said:


> #1 - Training is not sparring. Training is learning and developing. Practice is repetitively working the material to ingrain it. Sparring is bringing the training (your learning) and practice (the repetitions) into a testing mode. Proving it out under fight like conditions. It is not actually fighting.
> #2 - Going full force in sparring is foolish.
> #3 - My group 'trains' everything we do except Muay Thai bare handed. We practice the same. We practice hitting focus pads and wall bags (we don't practice by hitting someones face). We spar hard but controlled and with safety in mind.
> #4 - As to being a wing chun purist, please tell us just what does that mean. After all wing chun itself isn't pure having had several modifications or additions to it over the years.
> #5 - As to other arts like Muay Thai, Muay Baron, and others from that area of the world's bare knuckle fighting systems; They do very little sparring. A lot of training, practicing, and fighting but very little sparring. Why, because the fighters get Hurt and can't train for their next fight.



Different levels of testing are useful. Besides that your training sounds quite sensible.


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## JPinAZ (Sep 11, 2015)

guy b. said:


> "No full contact" does not equal only "low-to-no contact".
> 
> Yes training chi sau and gor sau will produce better results in wing chun than training sparring with gloves, because gloves teach you to hit with gloves, and wing chun is a hitting method not designed for gloved situations.



A very naive reply that speaks volumes.

Nice cherry picking of everyone's replies BTW. You've conveniently ignored and avoided the main context of my reply, as well as other's here. It makes sense that you wouldn't have much to say to the rest of my post as you don't seem very comfortable discussing your background or experience with which you form your 'opinions'. This is typical behavior of people that talk out their backside and are in desperate need of attention... One might say you are now bordering on trolling and not interested in any genuine conversation - only repeating the same mantra


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## guy b. (Sep 11, 2015)

To get good at wing chun it makes sense to train wing chun, not gloved striking methods. Your continued attempts at ad hominem speak volumes about the weakness of your argument. 

What is the main context of your reply? Please be concise and I will do my best to answer.


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## JPinAZ (Sep 11, 2015)

I'm not going to play that game and I shouldn't have to repeat myself. If you were genuinely interested, you could very easily go back a page and reread my previous post(s) you cherry picked. Reply to any (or all) of the questions if you're up for it. Or don't for all I care at this point


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## The Great Gigsy (Sep 11, 2015)

guy b. said:


> To get good at wing chun it makes sense to train wing chun, not gloved striking methods. Your continued attempts at ad hominem speak volumes about the weakness of your argument.
> 
> What is the main context of your reply? Please be concise and I will do my best to answer.


How is sparring with gloves not praticing good wing chun? I would assume that everyone here who has stated that they use gloves of some type during sparring first learns techniques by striking focus mitts. Furthermore I have been in the unfortunate postion of using my training and in no way did the fact that we use gloves for sparring have a negative impact on me being able to defend myself.


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## guy b. (Sep 11, 2015)

Here you go JPinAZ:



JPinAZ said:


> So you're saying that training (ie. drilling) using low-to-no contact _without _gloved sparring will produce _better_ fighting skills than those that also add gloved pressure testing to their training/drilling?
> 
> Already answered
> 
> ...


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## guy b. (Sep 11, 2015)

The Great Gigsy said:


> How is sparring with gloves not praticing good wing chun? I would assume that everyone here who has stated that they use gloves of some type during sparring first learns techniques by striking focus mitts. Furthermore I have been in the unfortunate postion of using my training and in no way did the fact that we use gloves for sparring have a negative impact on me being able to defend myself.



Sparring with gloves trains gloved striking. A good example of a wing chun group that trains all of the time with gloves is Alan Orr's group. Their wing chun reflects the gloved training.


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## Danny T (Sep 11, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Sparring with gloves trains gloved striking.


No training with gloves trains gloved striking.
Training and practicing without gloves trains for bare hand striking, gloved sparring allows for safe sparring and headgear prevents cuts allowing less damage, less recovery time, and less training time loss.


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## guy b. (Sep 12, 2015)

Danny T said:


> No training with gloves trains gloved striking.
> Training and practicing without gloves trains for bare hand striking, gloved sparring allows for safe sparring and headgear prevents cuts allowing less damage, less recovery time, and less training time loss.



Sparring as commonly done is a form of training


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## LFJ (Sep 12, 2015)

For those who may not know where guy b. came from and what is in his opinion the best video online showing VT "under pressure", here's the thread from the other forum, in which the people he claims as "previous teachers" (one in the video) denied even knowing him.

Excellent ving tsun under pressure


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## Danny T (Sep 12, 2015)

LFJ said:


> Excellent ving tsun under pressure


Thanks LFJ.
I actually liked this but in our wc world this would be not be considered sparring and certainly isn't fighting.
Though better than most videos I've seen there was far to much straight forward attacks and backing up. Some angling but very slight. Also very little intercepting of the movement and no leg attacks at all (which was probably agreed upon) and very little clinching with all the bystanders calling for them to stop and break when in a committed clinch.
We consider this type of relaxed, friendly non committed action 'play time'. Sparring for us is hard but controlled punching and kicking. Clinching, sweeps, throws, and takedowns are also allowed.


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## Danny T (Sep 12, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Sparring as commonly done is a form of training


Not all training is sparring. An important part but is only a small part. The fundamentals are utilized on the fly and under pressure in sparring but are developed in other aspects of training. Also new skills and applications are developed and ingrained in training then applicated and functionalized in free play and sparring.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2015)

The only thing you have to mindful when training with gloves is when you are doing training that enhances sensitivity (sensing movement and weight shift)


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## LFJ (Sep 12, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Many boxers and MT guys would disagree with you.



Many boxers and MT guys would disagree with _you_.

See there, I can easily say it too. Doesn't support your argument. Not that it would anyway.



> Having used headgear I can say that I hate it a lot more than heavy gloves. The worst headgear I have used is daido juku helmets which train people to miss punches and to be unable to avoid punches properly, but regular boxing headgear is also awful for distancing.



I can't say I'm familiar with the type of helmet you name, but I think if one can't hit someone because they don't have a helmet on, and they are used to hitting people with helmets, they might just... not be very good.

If you can clearly see your target, why wouldn't you be able to hit it? What happens when you fight people with smaller heads??

As for misjudging distance and not being able to avoid punches properly, as I said earlier, you should already be doing enough partner training and sparring without a helmet, so you'll already know distance, danger, etc., and the helmet will serve only as protection when the intensity is increased.

You're really exaggerating the detriment gloves and helmets have to learning to fight. It should not make that big of a difference to gear up for some hard sparring some times.



> My VT will work with gloves on because I train without (i.e. I train ving tsun, a non-gloved martial art). Yours will not work if you only train with because you are training a different kind of punch and a different dynamic.



Do you have data to substantiate that last statement? I don't believe you. Bulky boxing gloves certainly get in the way, but light MMA type gloves do not change the way I punch, and I see no reason why they would if I only trained with gloves.

As you say, your VT will work with gloves. That just goes to show it's about learning to punch properly, and not so much about gloved vs barehanded.


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## geezer (Sep 12, 2015)

LFJ said:


> Bulky boxing gloves certainly get in the way, but light MMA type gloves do not change the way I punch, and I see no reason why they would if I only trained with gloves.
> 
> As you say, your VT will work with gloves. That just goes to show it's about learning to punch properly, and not so much about gloved vs barehanded.



I have to agree. If Guy can apply his bare-handed VT training with gloves, then the converse can also be true, i.e. you can just as easily go from gloved sparring to bare-handed, especially if you use less bulky MMA gloves.



BTW here;s a photo of one of those "daido juku"  or "space helmets" helmets Guy referred to:

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-biq04...ium-296-p__40160.1395029461.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

I've never tried one but they are pretty bulky and would not promote careful targeting. They also might be so protective that they lead to feeling overconfident about taking head-shots and not adequately protecting your head. They actually look like they would be better used for protecting the "attacker" in self-defense training.


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## guy b. (Sep 12, 2015)

> I can't say I'm familiar with the type of helmet you name



Obviously



> If you can clearly see your target, why wouldn't you be able to hit it? What happens when you fight people with smaller heads??



Effective hitting is not about seeing. It is about expecting. The VT training methodology empasises this above all else.



> As for misjudging distance ... the helmet will serve only as protection when the intensity is increased.



It depends on the balance of time you spend between protected hitting and unprotected hitting.



> Do you have data to substantiate that last statement? Bulky boxing gloves certainly get in the way, but light MMA type gloves do not change the way I punch, and I see no reason why they would if I only trained with gloves.



Personal experience moving from sports sparring methodology to wing chun methodology. Completely different power generation and body mechanic. And use of gloves enforces a boxing style body movement and power generation. A good example of evidence for the detrimental effect of constant gloved training is the wing chun of Alan Orr's fight team. Do you prefer your wing chun to look this way?



> I don't believe you.



No problem. I don't believe you either.



> As you say, your VT will work with gloves. That just goes to show it's about learning to punch properly, and not so much about gloved vs barehanded.



You misunderstand. It will work as VT with gloves. Obviously with gloves on VT is a far from optimal way of fighting and will get you destroyed in the ring pretty quickly (try gloved sparring with decent boxers using VT and see what happens). Likewise the person that trains always will gloves will have something not quite VT that works without gloves to some extent (i.e. maintains whatever makes it what it is, is coherent). Of course this thing you create will not be optimal for the purposes for which VT was designed. 

What is VT for do you think?


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## geezer (Sep 12, 2015)

guy b. said:


> ...VT and see what happens). Likewise the person that trains always will gloves will have something not quite VT that works without gloves to some extent (i.e. maintains whatever makes it what it is, is coherent). Of course this thing you create will not be optimal for the purposes for which VT was designed.
> 
> *What is VT for do you think?*



Most would say VT is for self-defense, not sport. Of course that means different things to different people. I thought the following clips with Martin Austwick and Matt Easton were rather relevant. Martin is a HEMA enthusiast and instructor with special interest in English historical pugilism (bare knuckle). He believes that the switch to the *use of gloves *in boxing, both in training and competition,  was largely responsible for the dramatic changes in the way boxers punch. In bare knuckle days fighters fought like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/John_L._Sullivan_1898.jpg


Modern boxers fight more like this:
http://www.blackpressusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/box_g_mayweather_b1_300.jpg


So why did this change happen? Well here are some observations by Martin Austwick:






Anyway, I'm not about to go in for "full-contact. bare knuckle" training, but before jumping on a dogpile, it's worth noting that Guy B's ideas about the problems created by using gloves are_ not _totally out in left field. Any thoughts?


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## LFJ (Sep 12, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Effective hitting is not about seeing. It is about expecting. The VT training methodology empasises this above all else.



Expecting? Like anticipating? You'll have to explain further. I don't agree.



> And use of gloves enforces a boxing style body movement and power generation.



No, it doesn't. You must just not be very good.



> A good example of evidence for the detrimental effect of constant gloved training is the wing chun of Alan Orr's fight team. Do you prefer your wing chun to look this way?



You obviously care more about what you look like than how effective you are. Considering they are one of the few Wing Chun groups actually knocking people out in professional MMA, I'd say I'd definitely prefer that over Jerry's runaway slap boxing you think is so great because he looks like something.



> Obviously with gloves on VT is a far from optimal way of fighting and will get you destroyed in the ring pretty quickly (try gloved sparring with decent boxers using VT and see what happens).



That's not true. I've done gloved sparring with decent proponents of various styles. Having gloves on never got me destroyed, and I can do the same thing with or without gloves. You probably just aren't very good. Something about putting gloves on makes you revert to your previous styles. You probably need more practice to ingrain your VT behaviors.



> What is VT for do you think?



Hitting people. And I can do it just the same with or without gloves on. If light gloves change the way you move so drastically, you have not trained enough for your VT to not break down over even something as simple as having a little padding on your fists. You just need more practice.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2015)

geezer said:


> Most would say VT is for self-defense, not sport. Of course that means different things to different people. I thought the following clips with Martin Austwick and Matt Easton were rather relevant. Martin is a HEMA enthusiast and instructor with special interest in English historical pugilism (bare knuckle). He believes that the switch to the *use of gloves *in boxing, both in training and competition,  was largely responsible for the dramatic changes in the way boxers punch. In bare knuckle days fighters fought like this:
> 
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/John_L._Sullivan_1898.jpg
> 
> ...


How bare knuckle boxing differs from bare knuckle martial arts.
1:35 - 2:26
#1 martial arts punches are not the same as boxing punches
#2 Iron palm. Martial arts doe exercises that condition the hand and knuckles. Martal artists punch things like bricks, tiles, wood and concrete
#3 Hung Gar punches throw at the angle that he talks about, with minimum damage to the hand. The technique of the punches targets the soft and critical areas on the head
6:14 - vertical fist
#4 The vertical fist in martial arts is not thrown for the reasons he states which leads back to #1
#5 The keeping arms close to your body helps to generate more power and gives you a direct punch.  Some fighting systems rotate the punch instead of letting it stay vertical
#6 In martial arts an elbow that sticks out becomes a target for a joint lock, arm break, or shoulder dislocation.

Here's a video of me LIGHT SPARRING with friends.  None of the shots that they took from me could have been taking at 100% force, 100% Speed with 100% Technique bare knuckles. 
1st video Hook lands behind the ear. Not a hand breaker had I punched with bare knuckles.  Uppercut lands on the front of the face
2nd video Hook  lands where the jaw connects.  Notice how my fist isn't turned in the manner as shown in the bare knuckle video. I'm hitting with the same knuckles that you use to knock on a door. Again not a hand breaker had I punched with bare knuckles.
3rd Video vertical backfist thrown from the bottom target cheek bones,  following shot modified Jow Ga basic punch targets where the Jaw connect. Again not a hand breaker.

There is no way that anyone can get hit with these type punches bare knuckles and not be seriously injured. This includes me. 

This is for guy who spars at 100% bareknuckle.
If you are doing Wing Chun 100% full force then it's only the blocking and trapping that you are doing at full force.
If you are doing Wing Chun punches to the face or the body at full force then either your punches are significantly weak, your sparring partner is better than you and can successfully block anything you throw, or Wing Chun has weak punches.  This is why I want to see where you are actually using 100% and how.


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## geezer (Sep 13, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> How bare knuckle boxing differs from bare knuckle martial arts.
> 1:35 - 2:26
> #1 martial arts punches are not the same as boxing punches
> #2 Iron palm. Martial arts doe exercises that condition the hand and knuckles. Martal artists punch things like bricks, tiles, wood and concrete
> ...



_Jow Ga: _You make some good points. I didn't post those videos to take sides on old and unresolvable debates such as the merits of vertical vs. horizontal fists,  and close vs. long range punching, etc. Instead I was posting to show that there are knowledgeable people such as Martin Austwick who hold that hand protection such as wraps and bulky gloves have altered the form of Western Pugilism in much the way Guy B maintains regarding WC.

BTW This is _not_ an endorsement of Guy's extreme (IMO) belief in "full contact" bare-knuckle fighting as a training method. It's just acknowledging that some of his views about the dependence on gloves may have merit.


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## geezer (Sep 13, 2015)

LFJ said:


> ...No, it doesn't. *You must just not be very good.*
> ...You obviously care more about what you look like than how effective you are.
> *
> ....You probably just aren't very good*. Something about putting gloves on makes you revert to your previous styles. *You probably need more practice to ingrain your VT behaviors*.
> ...



OK, _LFJ_, I think we get the point. And you may be right, although as far as I know, none of us has ever seen Guy B. train or spar, or ever crossed bridges with him.

So instead of just repeating over and over that *he must stink* since he has some pretty extreme ideas, let's move on. Otherwise your remarks begin to look more like a personal grudge. Better to attack the position he posits than the person.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2015)

geezer said:


> _Jow Ga: _You make some good points. I didn't post those videos to take sides on old and unresolvable debates such as the merits of vertical vs. horizontal fists,  and close vs. long range punching, etc. Instead I was posting to show that there are knowledgeable people such as Martin Austwick who hold that hand protection such as wraps and bulky gloves have altered the form of Western Pugilism in much the way Guy B maintains regarding WC.
> 
> BTW This is _not_ an endorsement of Guy's extreme (IMO) belief in "full contact" bare-knuckle fighting as a training method. It's just acknowledging that some of his views about the dependence on gloves may have merit.


I understand. The comments that I made were general in regards to bareknuckle boxing vs bareknuckle martial arts. Sorry about the confusion.  The vertical vs. horizontal fist debate is not a concern for my school because we use both.  Training with gloves off is how my school trains and it helps for a multiple reasons so that's not a big issue for me either.  It's the 100% force that I want to see.  Everyone doesn't have the same output of force at 100%, so to see this would be worth seeing if someone actually does this.  I got a black eye from my friends punch which was about 5% of his power. Had he hit me 100% then my facial bone would have shattered.


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## geezer (Sep 13, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> ... The vertical vs. horizontal fist debate is not a concern for my school because we use both.  Training with gloves off is how my school trains and it helps for a multiple reasons so that's not a big issue for me either..



For the record, many branches of WC also use multiple hand positions, including the occasional horizontal fist. And, in our club, we also train bare fisted ...with _very_ controlled contact and targeting. Like you, I have to wonder how _Guy_ manages with bare fists and full contact.

But if he won't make a video, I guess it will just remain a mystery. Nothing worth getting worked up about. LFJ sometimes takes this  stuff too seriously IMO. It's just the internet, after all. People all over making outrageous claims. You can pretty well tell who's for real and not. Me... I'm just another WC hobbyist, sitting on my backside and pounding on a keyboard!


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## Danny T (Sep 13, 2015)

geezer said:


> For the record, many branches of WC also use multiple hand positions, including the occasional horizontal fist.


Yep! Vertical to Horizontal and everything in between.
Everyone speaks of WC being a scientific and principle based training system utilizing concepts to fight; some then draw lines of specifics stating these are the only way. Some even speak of the pureness of their wc when wc itself has been modified in numerous ways over the years. While I would agree there are some specific actions in specific situations your application of the movements and structures may well be different to mine... and that is ok.



geezer said:


> And, in our club, we also train bare fisted ...with _very_ controlled contact and targeting.
> Like you, I have to wonder how _Guy_ manages with bare fists and full contact.


Having been involved in several bare knuckle fights in my younger years, in my experience the damage I sustained and inflected in some of them is not something I have ever wanted to do or have done to me in sparring. That's not to say I've never had busted lips, blacken eyes, nose blooded, or small nicks/cuts from sparring but never anything near the damage from full 100% contact sparring. 
So I also am a bit intrigued with how Guy manages bare fist full contact sparring. ...just what is he referring to as full contact.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2015)

Geezer and Danny T.. I just wanted to say that I enjoy your posts in reference to Wing Chun. I had quite a few misconceptions about that fighting system and your comments here and in other discussion have given me a better understanding of what goes on in the world of Wing Chun.


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## Jake104 (Sep 13, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Gloves also damage the ability to acquire target, timing, distancing, power generation without gloves, and various other things. They are extremely bad for wing chun, which already has a training methodology that doesn't use gloves.


What's extremely bad for Wing Chun is lack of pressure testing the art. If you pressure test your WC bare knuckle then that's great and more power to you. If you think pressure testing the art is chi sao slap fighting, then I feel for you? Because that's fantasy.

As far as gloves hindering timing and targeting etc? I don't see it that way, but if it did, I'd embrace it and make it work regardless. In reality, fighting doesn't always offer a perfect environment to execute your Wing Chun. Chances are you'll need to adapt and accept whatever comes. So by saying you can't do this or that with gloves, is really saying you need a perfect eviorment for your WC to work?
IMO, whatever I can't do with my hands, I'll make work with the rest of my body. I don't fight hands and I don't fight with only my hands.


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## LFJ (Sep 13, 2015)

geezer said:


> I was posting to show that there are knowledgeable people such as Martin Austwick who hold that hand protection such as wraps and bulky gloves have altered the form of Western Pugilism in much the way Guy B maintains regarding WC.



I agree with that, and I also say bulky gloves get in the way and make our tight lines impossible to use. If one continued to spar with such gloves, in order to be effective they'd have to take wider lines and abandon much of the VT strategy.

Here I'm referring to my particular lineage/system of VT. Alan Orr's group uses bulky gloves and it works fine with their version of Wing Chun. They still use their body methods and punching concepts effectively, although it may be quite different from other versions of Wing Chun. There's nothing wrong with that.

Guy b. finds that to be a bad thing because it doesn't _look like_ his style. Well, they aren't doing the same style. They're doing CSLWC, and who cares what it looks like if it's knocking out professional fighters using their striking concepts? That's just a silly thing to get hung up about. Only a dreamer would care about that, not a fighter.



geezer said:


> Better to attack the position he posits than the person.



I believe I did. There is really no reason light gloves should be such a detriment. He says it changes body mechanics and power generation, which I find absurd. That's like saying if I put a top hat on I'll start waddling around duck footed. 

I can move and punch the same way with light gloves on as I can barehanded. If he can't, something is terribly wrong with his training.


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## Jake104 (Sep 13, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Sparring with gloves trains gloved striking. A good example of a wing chun group that trains all of the time with gloves is Alan Orr's group. Their wing chun reflects the gloved training.


Is that a bad thing? Like his WC or not Alan's guys and gals can fight. I bet they'd do just fine without gloves too.

This is where WC loses a lot of respect and credabilty with real fighters. They see internet threads like this one and think we are all a bunch of weirdo larpers, who believe we are deadly bare knuckle warriors.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> ...In reality, fighting doesn't always offer a perfect environment to execute your Wing Chun?


 In the drills that I do at my school the students learn how to use Jow Ga from less than perfect situations.  This helps us to not rely on one technique.  For example, we do a drill where we are on the floor and we have to get back up quickly and follow up with some kind of technique.  We position ourselves in off balanced positions where we have to regain control and follow up with some kind of kung fu technique.   We do whatever we can to "destroy the perfect environment" (within reasonable safety).  If I'm tying my shoe and someone pushes me over then I should know how to recover and follow up with a technique either while am close to the ground, half way standing up or standing up completely.

The goal is to be able to do Jow Ga no matter what position we are in. If it's winter and you have a big winter coat on then that big winter coat is going to have more effect on how you do your martial art than having gloves on. I broke my finger recently during sparring so now I get to learn how to be effective with Jow Ga only using one good hand and arm.  My left hand and left arm are useless because of the broken finger.  Grabbing or blocking with the left arm is out of the question.  Ironcially Jow Ga actually has a one arm form, it's just that I'm not advanced enough to be taught that form.


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## Jake104 (Sep 13, 2015)

LFJ said:


> I agree with that, and I also say bulky gloves get in the way and make our tight lines impossible to use. If one continued to spar with such gloves, in order to be effective they'd have to take wider lines and abandon much of the VT strategy.


Maybe, maybe not. Maybe slight angling may allow for the "tight lines" to be less impossible? This is how keep my lines tight and WC strategies intact with boxing gloves.


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## Jake104 (Sep 13, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> The goal is to be able to do Jow Ga no matter what position we are in


That should be the goal of all combative arts. Staying alive! Not the Bee Gees song!


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## LFJ (Sep 14, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Maybe, maybe not. Maybe slight angling may allow for the "tight lines" to be less impossible? This is how keep my lines tight and WC strategies intact with boxing gloves.



What I meant by tight lines is that my hands would often be passing tightly over each other as they recycle and continue to strike. This in part helps to control the attack line, occupying space, preventing the opponent's recovery. 

Bulky boxing gloves would cause me to run into my own gloves and tangle myself up. To get around this, I'd have to get around my own hands, opening up my lines and losing some of the control of space, making gaps for the opponent to possibly recover and interrupt me instead. Bad things.

Light gloves that basically just pad the knuckles don't get in the way like this, and they certainly don't change my power generation or body mechanics, as bizarre as that idea is.


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## Phobius (Sep 14, 2015)

Actually gloves does change one parameter in instances of sparring.

With gloves one may put a lot mot strength into a punch and need to compensate less for hitting bones. Such a power generation is not possible in bare knuckle fighting if there is ever a wish of not injuring yourself unexpectedly. This is not even mentioning the fact that people feel it possible to hit even harder without hurting their opponent while still winning the fight quicker.


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## yak sao (Sep 14, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> That should be the goal of all combative arts. Staying alive! Not the Bee Gees song!



You put that @#$% song in my head....I now return the favor


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 14, 2015)

yak sao said:


> You put that @#$% song in my head....I now return the favor


lol classic.


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## guy b. (Sep 14, 2015)

> Guy b. finds that to be a bad thing because it doesn't _look like_ his style.



No, it is because it doesn't work like wing chun. It is a different thing.



> That's not true. I've done gloved sparring with decent proponents of various styles. Having gloves on never got me destroyed



Have you sparred wing chun hands against a decent western pro boxer or a high level amateur? Taking the Kurth vids as an example of something you find admirable, do you think that approach will work in a boxing match against a competent opponent?



> they certainly don't change my power generation or body mechanics



Protection (gloves or headgear) increases contact time, which reduces impulse. You need to compensate for this if you are wearing gloves, which is why gloved boxing hits in the way it does today rather than as boxers used to hit before gloves. You can see exactly the same thing in (for example) Alan Orr's wing chun vs some other approaches. Gloves and protection absolutely do change body mechanic. You can see it happening in some of Sean's and Kurth's clips on the other site if you look carefully.



> Hitting people



Hitting people in what context?

Look, I am happy to show you what I mean because I am obviously not communicating it very well here. I travel around quite a bit and should be able to come to your class to demo if you would like. Are you in Europe?


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## geezer (Sep 14, 2015)

guy b. said:


> . I travel around quite a bit and should be able to come to your class to demo if you would like. Are you in Europe?



If you ever get out to Arizona, look me up. JP, Jake and Joy (Vajramusdi) also live in this area. And you could go see the Grand Canyon and hug a cactus. 

Otherwise, I'd still like to talk you into making a video. If like me you are not good at that stuff, maybe one of your mates is tech savvy and can help.


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## guy b. (Sep 14, 2015)

geezer said:


> If you ever get out to Arizona, look me up. JP, Jake and Joy (Vajramusdi) also live in this area. And you could go see the Grand Canyon and hug a cactus.
> 
> Otherwise, I'd still like to talk you into making a video. If like me you are not good at that stuff, maybe one of your mates is tech savvy and can help.



I would rather meet with you to discuss than post a video clip. Much less likely for misunderstandings to happen. I will contact you when I am in Arizona. Is this the best place to do so?


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## geezer (Sep 14, 2015)

guy b. said:


> I would rather meet with you to discuss than post a video clip. Much less likely for misunderstandings to happen. I will contact you when I am in Arizona. Is this the best place to do so?



Sure, this works, or go to www.vingtsunaz.com and contact me directly.


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## LFJ (Sep 15, 2015)

guy b. said:


> No, it is because it doesn't work like wing chun. It is a different thing.



It doesn't work like _your_ Wing Chun. Do you not realize there are countless different variations? Your complaint is that it doesn't work like your Wing Chun, but it shouldn't. It works like their CSL Wing Chun.



> Have you sparred wing chun hands against a decent western pro boxer or a high level amateur? Taking the Kurth vids as an example of something you find admirable, do you think that approach will work in a boxing match against a competent opponent?



Yes, why not?



> Protection (gloves or headgear) increases contact time, which reduces impulse.



What the hell does that mean? If I punch someone's head, it tends to bounce away. My hand is not going to stick to their head because I have a glove on it.



> You can see exactly the same thing in (for example) Alan Orr's wing chun vs some other approaches. Gloves and protection absolutely do change body mechanic. You can see it happening in some of Sean's and Kurth's clips on the other site if you look carefully.



That's absolutely absurd. You may be perceiving different body mechanics than what you do in your style of Wing Chun. The two styles you've just mentioned are very different, and they both function they way they are designed to, with or without gloves. If that differs from your Wing Chun, it has nothing to do with gloves screwing them up.



> Hitting people in what context?



Whatever context you find yourself in where you may be hitting people.



> Look, I am happy to show you what I mean because I am obviously not communicating it very well here. I travel around quite a bit and should be able to come to your class to demo if you would like. Are you in Europe?



I'm in Asia, but Arizona sounds nice since there are so many forum members there. But I'm not sure "showing what you mean" is going to be possible, unless you let them deliver full contact bareknuckle punches to your face and all you do is brace yourself and only sustain minor cuts at worst. Will you allow them to film that?

And, I don't care if you can't use your Wing Chun with gloves on. That's your problem. Not mine. Not something I have to worry about.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 15, 2015)

Gloves like this aren't good for most martial art fighting systems.  If Guy is talking about these gloves then I can see how these gloves would be a problem.


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## JPinAZ (Sep 15, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Gloves like this aren't good for most martial art fighting systems.  If Guy is talking about these gloves then I can see how these gloves would be a problem.



Haha. There's a lot going on that's wrong in that clip - the gloves are only one of them!

But I agree, gloves that size do limit ability to apply WC much more than smaller gloves. Smaller, open palm 6-8 oz gloves leave a lot more available to a WC fighter during sparring. But these bigger ones can still be useful to a degree, As long as one is aware of their limits due to size and inability to really use the palm, fingers, wrist as freely as smaller or even no gloves


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## guy b. (Sep 15, 2015)

LFJ said:


> It doesn't work like _your_ Wing Chun. Do you not realize there are countless different variations? Your complaint is that it doesn't work like your Wing Chun, but it shouldn't. It works like their CSL Wing Chun.



In terms of things like fighting strategy, movement and body mechanics, Alan Orr's wing chun does not work in the way wing chun does.




> Yes, why not?



Ok, so you haven't done this then. That's fine, but why get angry when someone who has talks about it? Wing chun is not good as a ring sport for several reasons. The most obvious of these is its predictability. Just like boxing alone is incredibly predictable in an mma match. Wing chun is not a good martial art for the ring.




> What the hell does that mean? If I punch someone's head, it tends to bounce away. My hand is not going to stick to their head because I have a glove on it



It means that padding increases contact time and decreases the impulse imparted to the target in the collision (look up impulse). Think about what happens when you hit a snooker ball against another snooker ball. Compare with what happens if you use soft padded balls with the same weight and momentum.




> That's absolutely absurd. You may be perceiving different body mechanics than what you do in your style of Wing Chun. The two styles you've just mentioned are very different, and they both function they way they are designed to, with or without gloves. If that differs from your Wing Chun, it has nothing to do with gloves screwing them up.



Hitting someone with a wet towel entails different body mechanics than hitting them with a small hammer of equal weight. Hitting someone with a blunt axe entails different body mechanics than hitting them with a sharp sword.  Wing chun is a martial art that uses shortened power chain linkages in the body for various reasons. Padding forces the use of longer power chains. You can see it in Kurths clips as he goes from no gloves to gloves. His guys appear in the middle of making a switch one way or the other. Alan Orr's people all use long power linkages, in much the same way that western boxers do.

Why does wing chun have the pole form and why does it stress that pole is introduced early?




> Whatever context you find yourself in where you may be hitting people.



You should ask someone about this.




> I'm in Asia, but Arizona sounds nice since there are so many forum members there. But I'm not sure "showing what you mean" is going to be possible, unless you let them deliver full contact bareknuckle punches to your face and all you do is brace yourself and only sustain minor cuts at worst. Will you allow them to film that?



I am often in HK. I could come and help to show you how bare knuckle training is essential for wing chun, and how gloved training is detrimental. You seem angry and it is difficult to convince an angry person with reasoned argument. Maybe seeing it will be more useful to you?




> And, I don't care if you can't use your Wing Chun with gloves on. That's your problem. Not mine. Not something I have to worry about.



This is not what I said


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## Jake104 (Sep 15, 2015)

guy b. said:


> In terms of things like fighting strategy, movement and body mechanics, Alan Orr's wing chun does not work in the way wing chun does.


I swear Alan should send me a free set of DVDs for defending his WC a much as I do? . I'd probably have to agree with the complete opposite of everything you just said in the above quote.


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## Jake104 (Sep 15, 2015)

LFJ said:


> I'm in Asia, but Arizona sounds nice since there are so many forum members there. But I'm not sure "showing what you mean" is going to be possible, unless you let them deliver full contact bareknuckle punches to your face and all you do is brace yourself and only sustain minor cuts at worst. Will you allow them to film that?
> 
> And, I don't care if you can't use your Wing Chun with gloves on. That's your problem. Not mine. Not something I have to worry about.


Haha, like Geezer said, out here in AZ we hug cacti or cactuses ( plural depending on if you're Latin or German) Cacti is not plural for Cactus.

We also use them as Mook Jong's.


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## Jake104 (Sep 15, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Gloves like this aren't good for most martial art fighting systems.  If Guy is talking about these gloves then I can see how these gloves would be a problem.


Wow..Obasi's stuff is unique to Obasi. I'll just leave it at that.


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## Jake104 (Sep 15, 2015)

yak sao said:


> You put that @#$% song in my head....I now return the favor


You have to admit it's a good song. I'll admit I  have it on my iphone. I just turn it down real low if I'am at a stop light and the windows are down.


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## Argus (Sep 15, 2015)

This discussion seems needlessly heated from my point of view.

Since I haven't actually heard it brought up yet, and I'm quite curious myself, I'll just ask this question:

guy b., how do you train WC and spar in a bare knuckle context? Are you able to do this safely, without frequent / serious injury? Or, are you rather looking for advice on how to do this?

I think that most of us can agree that gloves hinder some of what we do in WC to some extent or another, so it's not as if he doesn't have valid concerns. The question is whether or not he can apply his training methodology with an acceptable level of safety -- given, that level might vary between individuals.

I do think that variety in training methodologies and equipment used is essential, and I can see where sparring with gloves all of the time and catering your WC to that specific context will introduce unwanted tendencies. To once again draw a HEMA comparison (sorry guys!), just look at many Longsword tournaments. Because many of them are sparring all of the time with blunt swords and heavy protective gear, many of them have the tendency to fight as if they were using clubs rather than sharp swords, feeling that they must leave an "impression" on the protected man underneath to "score" a "hit," even though they're practicing _Blossfechten_ (unarmored combat, for which there is a completely separate method from armored combat). So, rather than skillful bladework, we sometimes get some abstract clubbing match vaguely resembling historical methods. Armor and safety equipment, and even a "competitive sparring" mindset/context _absolutely_ does change what we do *if we let it* and don't sufficiently direct and diversify our training.

The key, I think, is to balance your training methods, and stay honest with yourself and your training partners about what you're practicing. And, again, I don't think one needs to include "full force, full contact, full speed" sparring to be effective. You can simulate aggressive intent and pressure test your skills in a wide variety of contexts, with and without protective equipment, and come away with applicable and useful combative skills.


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## geezer (Sep 15, 2015)

guy b. said:


> ....You seem *angry* and it is difficult to convince an angry person with reasoned argument. Maybe seeing it will be more useful to you?



_Guy_, this comment is spot on. I, on the other hand, disagree with some things you say ...but am* not* angry. So, I enjoy the exchange. And I admit you make some interesting points. Like the following:



guy b. said:


> Wing chun is a martial art that uses shortened power chain linkages in the body for various reasons. Padding forces the use of longer power chains. You can see it in Kurths clips as he goes from no gloves to gloves. His guys appear in the middle of making a switch one way or the other. Alan Orr's people all use long power linkages, in much the same way that western boxers do.



This makes perfect sense to me. Still, I would not discount what Alan Orr does. And, as he himself applies it, I see plenty of Wing Chun just beneath the surface. It's less apparent in some of his fighters. But then they  are mixed martial artists and don't have the same amount of time in WC as Alan does. And regardless, they are effective in the ring. Gotta respect that!

So, here's a question for ya. Plenty of people get good at more than one art. Longfist as well as Southern short-fist boxing such as WC. Some may do WC and BJJ or shuai chiao. I do WC and Eskrima. So why can't someone do Wing Chun and_ Ring-Chun?  _You know,_ with gloves?_


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## Danny T (Sep 15, 2015)

geezer said:


> So, here's a question for ya. Plenty of people get good at more than one art. Longfist as well as Southern short-fist boxing such as WC. Some may do WC and BJJ or shuai chiao. I do WC and Eskrima. So why can't someone do Wing Chun and_ Ring-Chun?  _You know,_ with gloves?_


Great question... Makes excellent sense. Stop doing that; it just muddies the water.

Over heard a couple of muay thai members couple of week ago complaining about sparring the wing chun guys. "First time I sparred one of the wc people was surprising and humbling experince. I hate those odd circling punches and how they tie me up with their elbows and punch at the same time. It's like they have 4 arms." 
Made me smile; proudly.


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## LFJ (Sep 16, 2015)

guy b. said:


> In terms of things like fighting strategy, movement and body mechanics, Alan Orr's wing chun does not work in the way wing chun does.



Again, it doesn't work the way _your_ Wing Chun does. Wing Chun is not one thing. There are many variants that result in vastly different types of fighters. If you can't acknowledge that, you are being wilfully ignorant just to disparage another lineage.



> Ok, so you haven't done this then. That's fine, but why get angry when someone who has talks about it? Wing chun is not good as a ring sport for several reasons. The most obvious of these is its predictability. Just like boxing alone is incredibly predictable in an mma match. Wing chun is not a good martial art for the ring.



I have. I don't agree with you. If you can't fight in a ring, it just means you're not that great in general. That's your problem. Not Wing Chun's. You should be able to hold your own in whatever situation you find yourself where you need to hit or be hit.



> It means that padding increases contact time and decreases the impulse imparted to the target in the collision (look up impulse). Think about what happens when you hit a snooker ball against another snooker ball. Compare with what happens if you use soft padded balls with the same weight and momentum.



This is retarded. You're being way to scientific about this stuff. Fighting doesn't happen in super slo-mo. If you can't fight well because your knuckles are lightly padded, you just aren't very good yet. You should stop splitting hairs to make up excuses and just train harder.



> Wing chun is a martial art that uses shortened power chain linkages in the body for various reasons. Padding forces the use of longer power chains. You can see it in Kurths clips as he goes from no gloves to gloves.



His VT functions the same way with or without gloves, and it works, so...



> You should ask someone about this.



You asked me. WTF?



> I am often in HK. I could come and help to show you how bare knuckle training is essential for wing chun, and how gloved training is detrimental. You seem angry and it is difficult to convince an angry person with reasoned argument. Maybe seeing it will be more useful to you?



I'm not angry. Get real. This is only an online forum. I'm just direct, as VT has taught me. It would be easier for all of us around the world for you to just post up a clip of your training, since you run your mouth about people who are knocking out professional fighters with their Wing Chun while you're afraid to even say where you train or post a clip of what you claim.


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## JPinAZ (Sep 16, 2015)

LFJ said:


> This is retarded. You're being way to scientific about this stuff. Fighting doesn't happen in super slo-mo. If you can't fight well because your knuckles are lightly padded, you just aren't very good yet. You should stop splitting hairs to make up excuses and just train harder.



Agreed.



LFJ said:


> I'm not angry. Get real. This is only an online forum. I'm just direct, as VT has taught me. It would be easier for all of us around the world for you to just post up a clip of your training, since you run your mouth about people who are knocking out professional fighters with their Wing Chun while you're afraid to even say where you train or post a clip of what you claim.



I second that. No one would be asking him for video if he was coming here with an open willingness to share and not talking down to people, slagging on others for doing things differently and putting people down for doing something he disagrees with. It would be easy to just film himself on one of his sparring sessions taking all these full-on knuckle shots to the face and show his implied 'purer' and superior methods (shouldn't take more than a minute). Instead, he's elected to instead spend a lot of money to fly around the world (both AZ and HK) and show people in person. Doesn't sound very efficient. And we know things like that really never happen when people say they are going to fly to meet someone to show them the truth in there online discussions. 

But if he ever did come to AZ, I would be happy to give him the benefit of the doubt! I will surely be there to check out him taking full-on bareknuckle shots to the face with little-to-know damage per his claims. Sounds like fun!


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## guy b. (Sep 18, 2015)

Argus said:


> This discussion seems needlessly heated from my point of view.



This is because it started on another forum. Some people are angry with me. Therefore the argument from those people is disingenuous. 



> guy b., how do you train WC and spar in a bare knuckle context? Are you able to do this safely, without frequent / serious injury? Or, are you rather looking for advice on how to do this?



I train in what I think is a fairly typical way. I test my wing chun using bare handed contact at various levels up to full contact. I go full contact probably about a couple of times a month at the moment. I use chi sau to correct errors that show up under pressure. I don't train with gloves but in younger years fought under MT rules regularly and so I have a lot of experience training and fighting with gloves and other protective gear. Currently I train wing chun and bjj. 



> I think that most of us can agree that gloves hinder some of what we do in WC to some extent or another, so it's not as if he doesn't have valid concerns. The question is whether or not he can apply his training methodology with an acceptable level of safety -- given, that level might vary between individuals.



I think wing chun is better trained with reduced or limited contact and no protective gear than with protective gear. I think that protective gear is very detrimental to wing chun. Wing chun looks the way it does because it was developend for a specific context which is not ring fighting. Sport MA which use gloves also look a particular way because of the context under which they were developed and are trained. 

Modern professional boxing is not old bare handed boxing. They are completely different things because of the training methodology and the conventions of the contest. 



> I do think that variety in training methodologies and equipment used is essential, and I can see where sparring with gloves all of the time and catering your WC to that specific context will introduce unwanted tendencies.



Of course. And I think people who do not acknowledge this point are being dishonest. Whether such tendencies are unwanted will of course depend on what you are trying to develop. I think that Alan Orr's group are aiming for sports cometition with protection. Therefore it probably makes sense therefore for them to train with gloves and to do wing chun as they do it.



> To once again draw a HEMA comparison (sorry guys!), just look at many Longsword tournaments. Because many of them are sparring all of the time with blunt swords and heavy protective gear, many of them have the tendency to fight as if they were using clubs rather than sharp swords, feeling that they must leave an "impression" on the protected man underneath to "score" a "hit," even though they're practicing _Blossfechten_ (unarmored combat, for which there is a completely separate method from armored combat). So, rather than skillful bladework, we sometimes get some abstract clubbing match vaguely resembling historical methods. Armor and safety equipment, and even a "competitive sparring" mindset/context _absolutely_ does change what we do *if we let it* and don't sufficiently direct and diversify our training.



This is what often happens in sports derived from real combative activities. I believe the same sorts of issue can be seen in kendo, western fencing, western boxing, western wrestling. Muay thai is an interesting one in that it retains a lot of bare handed bias, I think because of cultural preference for certain techniques. 



> The key, I think, is to balance your training methods, and stay honest with yourself and your training partners about what you're practicing. And, again, I don't think one needs to include "full force, full contact, full speed" sparring to be effective. You can simulate aggressive intent and pressure test your skills in a wide variety of contexts, with and without protective equipment, and come away with applicable and useful combative skills.



I agree


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## guy b. (Sep 18, 2015)

> I second that. No one would be asking him for video if he was coming here with an open willingness to share and not talking down to people, slagging on others for doing things differently and putting people down for doing something he disagrees with.



I am very willing to share. I feel I am being talked down to rather than talking down to people. If people are polite then it is much easier to interact.



> It would be easy to just film himself on one of his sparring sessions taking all these full-on knuckle shots to the face and show his implied 'purer' and superior methods (shouldn't take more than a minute).



It is disingenuous to misrepresent my argument in this way. This is the kind of thing that probably provokes the kind of response you find offensive.



> Instead, he's elected to instead spend a lot of money to fly around the world (both AZ and HK) and show people in person.



Given the attitude to my argument, a meeting in person is much more likely to lead to constructive outcomes than a video. I am sometimes in HK and the US because I travel a lot with work. If I am somewhere that you happen to be then meeting up is something that I like to do. 



> But if he ever did come to AZ, I would be happy to give him the benefit of the doubt! I will surely be there to check out him taking full-on bareknuckle shots to the face with little-to-know damage per his claims. Sounds like fun!



I would be happy for us to spar bare knuckle when I am in AZ


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## guy b. (Sep 18, 2015)

LFJ said:


> Again, it doesn't work the way _your_ Wing Chun does. Wing Chun is not one thing. There are many variants that result in vastly different types of fighters. If you can't acknowledge that, you are being wilfully ignorant just to disparage another lineage.



Wing chun is a bounded set. There are things which are wing chun and things which are not. Do you agree?



> I have. I don't agree with you. If you can't fight in a ring, it just means you're not that great in general. That's your problem. Not Wing Chun's. You should be able to hold your own in whatever situation you find yourself where you need to hit or be hit.



This is why meeting is better than arguing



> This is retarded. You're being way to scientific about this stuff. Fighting doesn't happen in super slo-mo. If you can't fight well because your knuckles are lightly padded, you just aren't very good yet. You should stop splitting hairs to make up excuses and just train harder.



Ignorance of physical reality is not simple, direct and efficient. Contact time is important in terms of power generation. You don't throw a shot put in the same way you throw a punch, do you?



> His VT functions the same way with or without gloves, and it works, so...



You should ask around a bit more before you make silly claims. Michael Kurth's wing chun does not function successfully in high level ring sports. It might function well as wing chun, but that is a different thing. Wing chun is not a ring sport



> You asked me. WTF?



Your answer shows you need to find out more



> I'm not angry. Get real. This is only an online forum. I'm just direct, as VT has taught me



You appear angry. Angry people are illogical and misrepresent arguments



> It would be easier for all of us around the world for you to just post up a clip of your training, since you run your mouth about people who are knocking out professional fighters with their Wing Chun



Who is knocking out professional fighters with their wing chun? If you mean Alan Orr's team than that is professional in the widest sense of the word. I train with some mid level active fighters that trained with Orr a few years ago and their opinion is interesting. I have also been to his school and met him. I am not speaking from a position of ignorance. 



> you're afraid to even say where you train or post a clip of what you claim.



I am happy to come and show you. Please let me know where to come and then we will be able to resolve this silly dispute.


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## guy b. (Sep 18, 2015)

geezer said:


> _Guy_, this comment is spot on. I, on the other hand, disagree with some things you say ...but am* not* angry. So, I enjoy the exchange. And I admit you make some interesting points. Like the following:
> 
> This makes perfect sense to me



I think that here is not a good place to discuss such things


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## nikthegreek_3 (Sep 18, 2015)

Guys, speaking about Wing chun and because we mentioned Bruce Lee who definitely knew wing chun, here is a very good analysis about wing chun's expression. So watch the video in this page: CLICK HERE to support Bruce Lee - The Wing Chun Analysis, Episode 2


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## nikthegreek_3 (Sep 18, 2015)

And?


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## geezer (Sep 18, 2015)

nikthegreek_3 said:


> And?



Interesting video, very well made. But IMO, while WC in real-life application, i.e. fighting, will be much freer than in practice and might look very "rough and tumble" ...it is still WC not JKD. There is a lot in that video that is not my idea if WC. It may be JKD, it may use some WC principles, and it may be effective. Just not the WC I train and know.

Also, I have some real doubts about using Bruce Lee's _*movies*_ as a source for practical fighting techniques.


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## Danny T (Sep 18, 2015)

A lot of wc principles within JKD but that doesn't make JKD wc.


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## geezer (Sep 18, 2015)

nikthegreek_3 said:


> And?



BTW is that you or your teacher in the video?


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## Jake104 (Sep 28, 2015)

guy b. said:


> I would be happy for us to spar bare knuckle when I am in AZ


I'm down! We can call it, the AZ Fight Club Bare Knuckle Brawling Gloves Are 4 Pussies Cats club? Or for short, the AZFCBKGA4PC club?


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## yak sao (Sep 28, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> I'm down! We can call it, the AZ Fight Club Bare Knuckle Brawling Gloves Are 4 Pussies Cats club? Or for short, the AZFCBKGA4PC club?



Yea, you're on to something.....and the first rule of AZFCBKGA4PC club could be nobody talks about AZFCBKGA4PC club.


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## yak sao (Sep 28, 2015)

And the main reason no one talks about AZFCBKGA4PC club is they can't remember the damn initials


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## Jake104 (Sep 28, 2015)

yak sao said:


> And the main reason no one talks about AZFCBKGA4PC club is they can't remember the damn initials


Haha! I had to edit the post 10 times cause I couldn't even remember it long enough to transfer it into an acronym. Image after I take a few of those bare-knuckle  shots once we start this fight club.


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## yak sao (Sep 28, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Haha! I had to edit the post 10 times cause I couldn't even remember it long enough to transfer it into an acronym. Image after I take a few of those bare-knuckle  shots once we start this fight club.



sshhh!   are you trying to get kicked out?


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

You are in guys. I will pm you the secret handshake


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## yak sao (Sep 29, 2015)

I'm afraid I have to opt out. I live some 1800 miles away and wouldn't be able to make the weekly meetings.
Do you have a chapter anywhere in the eastern part of the US?


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## JPinAZ (Sep 29, 2015)

I'm in. I always enjoy meeting new WC people and giving/taking some hits when I can!


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

yak sao said:


> I'm afraid I have to opt out. I live some 1800 miles away and wouldn't be able to make the weekly meetings.
> Do you have a chapter anywhere in the eastern part of the US?



I'll pm you out of the blue for bare handed gong sau death match with no warning next time I am in the Eastern US.


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> I'm in. I always enjoy meeting new WC people and giving/taking some hits when I can!



And you


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## yak sao (Sep 29, 2015)

guy b. said:


> I'll pm you out of the blue for bare handed gong sau death match with no warning next time I am in the Eastern US.



I'll  leave my schedule open. Just please don't tell my wife, she hates it when I get into spontaneous death matches.


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## JPinAZ (Sep 29, 2015)

My wife hates when I spontaneously combust....  



.........during spontaneous death matches


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## yak sao (Sep 29, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> My wife hates when I spontaneously combust....
> 
> 
> 
> .........during spontaneous death matches



Women......there's just no pleasing them


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

Don't worry; your wives will leave you when you get involved in fight club. Then no more problems


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## JPinAZ (Sep 29, 2015)

In reality, they won't even know - as long as we follow the first 2 rules!


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## yak sao (Sep 29, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Don't worry; your wives will leave you when you get involved in fight club. Then no more problems



Hey you don't have to convince me, you had me at deathmatch.


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

It's more the sneaking out of the house at 4am for no warning bare knuckle combat in the parking lot that gets them. They hate that. Plus when I start showing up at your house..that is usually the final straw


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## yak sao (Sep 29, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> In reality, they won't even know - as long as we follow the first 2 rules!




Yeah all those black eyes  missing teeth and lumps on the head they won't suspect a thing


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## JPinAZ (Sep 29, 2015)

huh, you must be doing it wrong - I don't git'none'o those thangs!


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## Bkouba (Oct 1, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Is that a bad thing? Like his WC or not Alan's guys and gals can fight. I bet they'd do just fine without gloves too.
> 
> This is where WC loses a lot of respect and credabilty with real fighters. They see internet threads like this one and think we are all a bunch of weirdo larpers, who believe we are deadly bare knuckle warriors.


You would think the WC community would get behind guys like Alan making WC work in MMA. Your right about us not needing gloves, I'm having a bare knuckle boxing match when I get back from my trip around Europe. I'm open to all these 'real' WC teams dismissing Alan and our teams skills to step up and show me a thing or two. Unlike a lot of the keyboard warriors prevalent in the WC world, I've taken my fair share of hidings but I've also dished a couple out myself. If someone disrespecting Sifu Alan would like to back up their words in a fight then I'm down. The thing is if I lost, I'd happily shake my opponents hand, go out for a beer with them afterwards and then learn from the experience - I've even gone to train with guys I've lost to in the past. But, that's the difference between our team and most other WC practitioners. We compete to further our knowledge and refine our system, others just discuss hypothetical scenarios and post ******** clips on YouTube.


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## Jake104 (Oct 1, 2015)

Bkouba said:


> You would think the WC community would get behind guys like Alan making WC work in MMA


You would think so....Kinda like farting in the wind with some of these guys. You'll never convince them. Everybody has there idea of what WC should look like untill they get punched in the face.

I'm lucky to belong to a group (DTE) here that looks at WC in a similar way to how Alan does. Basically we test it and trim in down to raw fighting principles. So I'm behind what you guys are doing for WC!


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## Bkouba (Oct 1, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> You would think so....Kinda like farting in the wind with some of these guys. You'll never convince them. Everybody has there idea of what WC should look like untill they get punched in the face.
> 
> I'm lucky to belong to a group (DTE) here that looks at WC in a similar way to how Alan does. Basically we test it and trim in down to raw fighting principles. So I'm behind what you guys are doing for WC!


Cheers, yeah it's a bit frustrating at times. Yep you hit the nail on the head with the whole getting punched in the face line. Somehow I don't think many people round here have haha. Keep up the good work brother, hopefully catch up one day to train.


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## JPinAZ (Oct 1, 2015)

I don't agree with a lot of Alan's views on WC or how he or his guys applies it in his clips. And in return, he's said he doesn't agree with what I do, even if he really doesn't have any experience in what I do. What he does works for him, what I do works for me.
Anyway, there's no reason to get upset or get frustrated over it. As long as people are happy with what we are doing, does it really matter if someone agrees with it or not?

(And just because I don't do it his way doesn't mean I'm not getting punched in the face )


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## Bkouba (Oct 1, 2015)

Your right that people should be happy to do what they want. My problem lies with the many frauds out there who teach gullible students that they can fight, defend themselves and others with hokey principals that are not based on reality. For some reason in WC there seems to be so much debate on what works and doesn't. Well that's what we have competition for... Not saying everyone has to fight, but I get real suspicious of all these teachers out there who are quick to critique Alan's WC but never back it up. The ring or the cage is the only forum you need to see who's principal works!


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## Jake104 (Oct 1, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> I don't agree with a lot of Alan's views on WC or how he or his guys applies it in his clips. And in return, he's said he doesn't agree with what I do, even if he really doesn't have any experience in what I do. What he does works for him, what I do works for me.
> Anyway, there's no reason to get upset or get frustrated over it. As long as people are happy with what we are doing, does it really matter if someone agrees with it or not?
> 
> (And just because I don't do it his way doesn't mean I'm not getting punched in the face )


Different strokes for different folks. I like what Alan does and I like what you do. What I do now is different than both of you in some ways. In some ways it's the same. That's how I look at it.


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## guy b. (Oct 1, 2015)

Bkouba said:


> You would think the WC community would get behind guys like Alan making WC work in MMA.



Why should people support something they don't agree with? It has the name wing chun, but it doesn't look like any wing chun I know. You are welcome to do what you like, but why do you expect to be cheered on and not criticized?



> But, that's the difference between our team and most other WC practitioners. We compete to further our knowledge and refine our system, others just discuss hypothetical scenarios and post ******** clips on YouTube.



Is that the difference? 

In my quite wide experience of wing chun (including Alan Orr), I would say the main difference is in the appetite for self promotion. Most really good wing chun groups are quite private, some might say isolated, but it has its pros and cons. Alan Orr on the other hand is above all a commercial operation. He is a bit like the Lloyd Irvin of wing chun. And he appears to be an egomaniac, which isn't all that appealing to me personally. I also don't find his wing chun to be something I want to learn in the slightest. And learning real, functional, beautiful, effective wing chun, above all else in the possible training I could be doing, is what I am here to do.


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## Jake104 (Oct 1, 2015)

Getting punched in the face is great! I highly recommend adding it to everyone's training. I'm kinda of a freak in class. I line up first or cut in line and go twice. I like it that much. With gloves on of coarse. Bare knuckle just pisses me off


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## Bkouba (Oct 1, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Why should people support something they don't agree with? It has the name wing chun, but it doesn't look like any wing chun I know. You are welcome to do what you like, but why do you expect to be cheered on and not criticized?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see what your saying which is cool, what does 'functional' And 'effective' WC mean to you.


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## guy b. (Oct 1, 2015)

Bkouba said:


> My problem lies with the many frauds out there who teach gullible students that they can fight, defend themselves and others with hokey principals that are not based on reality.



i think Alan's curriculum is specifically pitched at a particular king of gullable student. It has hokey principles aplenty, multiple levels and dribbles of info, high cost, a lack of coherency, and a typical guru at the helm. It has the ring fighting aspect because with the advent of mma that is what sells. If we were in the 1980s Alan would be doing anti grappling while sporting a mullet and wife beater shirt.


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## Jake104 (Oct 1, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Why should people support something they don't agree with? It has the name wing chun, but it doesn't look like any wing chun I know. You are welcome to do what you like, but why do you expect to be cheered on and not criticized?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Show me WSL WC fighting ( not slap fighting) so I can see what WC looks like? No disrespect to WSL. It just seems like that group thinks they have it and no-one else does? Why is that?


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## Jake104 (Oct 1, 2015)

guy b. said:


> i think Alan's curriculum is specifically pitched at a particular king of gullable student. It has hokey principles aplenty, multiple levels and dribbles of info, high cost, a lack of coherency, and a typical guru at the helm. It has the ring fighting aspect because with the advent of mma that is what sells. If we were in the 1980s Alan would be doing anti grappling while sporting a mullet and wife beater shirt.


Wow, so tell us how you really feel?


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## Bkouba (Oct 1, 2015)

guy b. said:


> i think Alan's curriculum is specifically pitched at a particular king of gullable student. It has hokey principles aplenty, multiple levels and dribbles of info, high cost, a lack of coherency, and a typical guru at the helm. It has the ring fighting aspect because with the advent of mma that is what sells. If we were in the 1980s Alan would be doing anti grappling while sporting a mullet and wife beater shirt.


Hokey principals? There are better forums to put these principals to the test. It's only in the WC world that there seems to be so many keyboard warriors, I was warned but have fallen right into the trap haha.


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## guy b. (Oct 1, 2015)

Bkouba said:


> I see what your saying which is cool, what does 'functional' And 'effective' WC mean to you.



Exactly the usual definitions of those words. Functional is fit for purpose, working as intended according to design, able to do its job. Effective has similar connotations in terms of working as designed, but also entails success towards a particular purpose or in terms of producing a desired result. Both functional and effective entail a purpose, a goal. Fighting in the ring is not, to me, the goal of wing chun


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## Jake104 (Oct 1, 2015)

Bkouba said:


> Hokey principals? There are better forums to put these principals to the test. It's only in the WC world that there seems to be so many keyboard warriors, I was warned but have fallen right into the trap haha.


Yes, but it's an easy trap to escape. Just clinch up, 'most' WC guys are scared of the clinch. Works every time.. Haha


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## guy b. (Oct 1, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Wow, so tell us how you really feel?



Don't enter the battle if you don't like the potential results


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## Jake104 (Oct 1, 2015)

I think fighting in the ring isn't the goal? Fighting in the ring is an extension of ones training? At least that's how I see it.


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## Jake104 (Oct 1, 2015)

You're right my fingers start to hurt in this type of 'battle'. Lost my insurance so I have to keep keyboard battling to a minimum. Carpal tunnel


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## guy b. (Oct 1, 2015)

Bkouba said:


> Hokey principals? There are better forums to put these principals to the test. It's only in the WC world that there seems to be so many keyboard warriors, I was warned but have fallen right into the trap haha.



There are also many people who just like to train seriously with friends and who do not seek recognition in the way that people like Alan Orr do. There are many ways to test an MA without fighting publicly in a ring.


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## Bkouba (Oct 1, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Don't enter the battle if you don't like the potential results


Oh dear, sad thing is this is what a lot of WC world consider a battle.


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## guy b. (Oct 1, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> I think fighting in the ring isn't the goal? Fighting in the ring is an extension of ones training? At least that's how I see it.



Making money is the goal. Fighting in the ring and promoting any such activity that ends in success is one means to that goal. Posting lots of youtube videos focused on self promotion while subtly dismissing traditional wing chun training is another. Franchising, drip drip teaching with never ending levels of progression, and effective payment collection systems are the way to milk those you catch in the net.


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## Bkouba (Oct 1, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Yes, but it's an easy trap to escape. Just clinch up, 'most' WC guys are scared of the clinch. Works every time.. Haha


Haha, I've already taken the red pill though. Save yourself!


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## Jake104 (Oct 1, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Making money is the goal.


I agree mo money mo money. That's actually why I started MA's. To jack fools for there lunch monies yo!


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## guy b. (Oct 1, 2015)

Bkouba said:


> Oh dear, sad thing is this is what a lot of WC world consider a battle.



It is an argument. Mostly arguing is how people resolve differences and refute unsubstantiated claims. Are you saying that you would prefer to fight me in order to protect the reputation of Alan?


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## Jake104 (Oct 1, 2015)

He did take the red pill and he's traveling in Europe fighting and you're in Europe somewhere? I'd probably lock my doors at night? just saying.

Jk we aren't violent in here. This is all just harmless fun


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## Bkouba (Oct 1, 2015)

guy b. said:


> It is an argument. Mostly arguing is how people resolve differences and refute unsubstantiated claims. Are you saying that you would prefer to fight me in order to protect the reputation of Alan?


In regards to martial arts, unsubstantiated claims are resolved in competition it's only in WC they are 'battled' out in forums. As I've posted elsewhere Im always eager to challenge myself, I'm about to start the next phase of my fight career. Am I picking a fight with you? No I'm not a bully, I don't pick fights but happily accept challenges.


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## guy b. (Oct 1, 2015)

In competition martial arts, pre arranged sporting contests are resolved by competition according to the rules. Unsanctioned fights over unsubstantiated claims are not common in the slightest. But if you know the history of mma in the UK you will remember some horrific personal reputation destructions being carried out on the sfuk and cage warriors forums, probably circa 2000 to 2005. It is fantasy to pretend that arguments only happen in traditional martial arts. I have never seen anything as bad as the old UK mma forums.

If competition is the yard stick for you then I think that Alan's results speak for themselves. If you are honest with yourself.


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## JPinAZ (Oct 1, 2015)

Bkouba said:


> Your right that people should be happy to do what they want. My problem lies with the many frauds out there who teach gullible students that they can fight, defend themselves and others with hokey principals that are not based on reality. For some reason in WC there seems to be so much debate on what works and doesn't. Well that's what we have competition for... Not saying everyone has to fight, but I get real suspicious of all these teachers out there who are quick to critique Alan's WC but never back it up. The ring or the cage is the only forum you need to see who's principal works!



While I agree, there is a lot of bad WC being sold out there. And it's not only an issue with WC, but a lot of TMA's. But why worry so much about things you can't control? It's not really _your_ problem is it? 

I agree, that in the end of the day, it's what we can _do_ that matters - Can we walk the talk. And it's an important point. In my own life I feel I've proven what works for me in the 12+ years I've been training & teaching WC from which I form my opinions. But they are just that - opinions
Now let me ask you - I have my opinions on what Alan does, and disagree with many of his approaches. Do I now need to 'back it up' and fight someone to express my an opinion? Why does it matter so much what I think? Should I care so much what he thinks about me that I should want to fight him? That would be letting my ego run everything! haha, and can you imagine what this world would be like if we all had to fight everyone we didn't agree with! 
I hope you get my point here. You seem like a decent sort and it's really nothing personal, but so many people are so quick to make it so.


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## yak sao (Oct 1, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Getting punched in the face is great! I highly recommend adding it to everyone's training. I'm kinda of a freak in class. I line up first or cut in line and go twice. I like it that much. With gloves on of coarse. *Bare knuckle just pisses me off*



So.....all that talk about "AZFCBKGA4PC club" was just talk then.............WTF?.


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## Bkouba (Oct 2, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> While I agree, there is a lot of bad WC being sold out there. And it's not only an issue with WC, but a lot of TMA's. But why worry so much about things you can't control? It's not really _your_ problem is it?
> 
> I agree, that in the end of the day, it's what we can _do_ that matters - Can we walk the talk. And it's an important point. In my own life I feel I've proven what works for me in the 12+ years I've been training & teaching WC from which I form my opinions. But they are just that - opinions
> Now let me ask you - I have my opinions on what Alan does, and disagree with many of his approaches. Do I now need to 'back it up' and fight someone to express my an opinion? Why does it matter so much what I think? Should I care so much what he thinks about me that I should want to fight him? That would be letting my ego run everything! haha, and can you imagine what this world would be like if we all had to fight everyone we didn't agree with!
> I hope you get my point here. You seem like a decent sort and it's really nothing personal, but so many people are so quick to make it so.


Yeah I see where your coming from, and although my comments may be taken as me just being this meathead MMA guy, I don't think everything needs to be sorted by fighting ect. But... And there's always a but haha I'm starting to learn terms like functional, applicacable and what works in regards to WC differs from person to person.


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## Bkouba (Oct 2, 2015)

guy b. said:


> In competition martial arts, pre arranged sporting contests are resolved by competition according to the rules. Unsanctioned fights over unsubstantiated claims are not common in the slightest. But if you know the history of mma in the UK you will remember some horrific personal reputation destructions being carried out on the sfuk and cage warriors forums, probably circa 2000 to 2005. It is fantasy to pretend that arguments only happen in traditional martial arts. I have never seen anything as bad as the old UK mma forums.
> 
> If competition is the yard stick for you then I think that Alan's results speak for themselves. If you are honest with yourself.


Yeah competition is the yardstick for me personally. For example I have a 2-2 Semi pro MMA record. Am I the most skilled martial artist - hell no! But, I like many of our guys test ourselves for all to see. I compete to properly assess my skills and after each fight - especially the losses I've come back better. There's a big difference between training, sparring, competition and a real fight. Of course I'm not going to go out there and look for a 'real' fight but I think competition offers the most realistic portrayal of your skills. That's how I'm honest with myself, I've got the footage of me being beaten up haha


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## guy b. (Oct 2, 2015)

Why do you assume that nobody else has competed in sports fighting events?


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## Bkouba (Oct 2, 2015)

I don't assume that at all, I hope more WC practioners compete. It would put a lot of this forum nonsense to rest. I feel competition is the quickest way to learn, it either works or it doesn't. Now we've all seen gym warriors that fall apart under competition. Nothing wrong with this by the way, one of my best friends is an absolute stud in the gym. If you saw him rolling and sparring there's no way you'd want to fight him. Doesn't help he's shredded and half a foot taller than me haha. Unfortunately under competition or really intense sparring though he just can't seem to translate those skills he displays in the gym. I feel the fallacy of many WC practioners who don't compete actually think what you do in the gym you can in a fight. They have this weird religious like belief thing going on, or better word would be cult. Then again like many have said, if they are happy doing what they are doing who am I to judge? I was always the smartarse in class questioning the teacher - funny how I became one. So I'm all about testing out principals ect and if they work I'm happy to adapt and use them.


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## guy b. (Oct 2, 2015)

What forum nonsense do you mean? And who has a weird religious like belief thing going on?


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## Jake104 (Oct 6, 2015)

yak sao said:


> So.....all that talk about "AZFCBKGA4PC club" was just talk then.............WTF?.


No....hello! That would be breaking the first rule of our club. Duh!


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## yak sao (Oct 6, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> No....hello! That would be breaking the first rule of our club. Duh!




Sorry I doubted you my friend...I am ashamed


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