# Re No Peace in the Holy Land



## Big Don (Dec 29, 2008)

Re No Peace in the Holy Land  

[Cliff May]
12-27-08
National Review Online
Excerpt:


Its no surprise that Israel would launch a new offensive against Hamas. Israeli officials have been warning that they would not sit back indefinitely and let Hamas rain missiles on their citizens. The timing  after Christmas and before Obama is sworn in  make sense.

 Its also no surprise that much of the coverage has ignored the years of missile attacks Israel has endured or treats them as though they are just a minor annoyance: Cant the Israelis use umbrellas or something?

A CNN piece I saw earlier today made no mention of the missiles until the very end when they quoted from a White House statement calling on Hamas to finally put a stop to the rocket salvos.

 Context is also missing from many reports: Israelis left Gaza in 2005  after years of being told that if they ended the occupation the violence would subside. Its been just the opposite.
END EXCERPT
If one of your neighbors shot at your house  at random intervals you wouldn't just take that, would you?


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 29, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Re No Peace in the Holy Land
> 
> [Cliff May]
> 12-27-08
> ...


 
Well, upon identifying which neighbor was doing the shooting, and if the police failed to immediately act upon it, and since I can't afford to move, and shouldn't have to anyway, I shouldn't be too terribly surprised if at some point in the future the census quietly became one neighbor the less, that's all.


But see, making an entire country disappear, that's next to impossible, however desirable it may be.


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## Lynne (Dec 29, 2008)

Esau and Jacob have been fighting for how long now?  5,000 years?


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## girlbug2 (Dec 29, 2008)

I thought that was Isaac and Ishmael.


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## Lynne (Dec 29, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> I thought that was Isaac and Ishmael.


You are right, God made a covenant with Isaac. I have forgotten so much biblical lore in the last few years.  I guess it was the two pairs of brothers, Isaac and Ishmael, and Jacob and Esau?  Oddly enough, some Jews are descendants of Ishmael.  Religious?  Jesus was a Palestinean Jew.  This all gets so confusing


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## girlbug2 (Dec 29, 2008)

In any case, this conflict won't be resolved in our lifetime.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm beginning to wonder if it's been going on so long it's turned into some kind of "genetic memory" thing......


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## grydth (Dec 29, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> In any case, this conflict won't be resolved in our lifetime.



It just may be 'resolved'... and our lifetimes may not be that long. 

I think we are going to pay a horrific price for letting Iran become a nuclear power, and for letting them murder and maim thousands of Americans in Iraq with impunity. They will take that as weakness. That's not even counting their bloody hand in world terror for the past quarter century.

Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) doesn't work when you are dealing with a nutty Islamic death cult. We view massive death with horror, Allmadjihad will look at it as glorious martyrdom that brings their cannibal godlet back in a firestorm.

Iran will get the bomb. Iran will use the bomb on Israel, whose last act will be a retaliatory strike. Radiation will do the rest in the region. "Resolved' will mean death in a sea of fused glass and swirling ashes... and if the fruitcakes can get a better missile than the Shishkabob 3, they'll share with us, too.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 29, 2008)

Hey, it's MY job to be the doom-and-gloomer, dammit! 

But you're right.


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## David Weatherly (Dec 29, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Hey, it's MY job to be the doom-and-gloomer, dammit!
> 
> But you're right.


 

Hey Andy, 

You're doing a great job!


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## Tez3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Perhaps a few facts rather than Biblical fancies.
Jews and Muslims haven't been fighting each other for centuries let alone thousands of years, they have been at war since the Mufti of Jerusalem a avid admirer and supporter of Adoph Hitler called for Jews to be killed and driven from Palestine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

He made the nazi doctrine against Jews his own and preached it among his clerics who in turn still embrace it and teach it to the Muslim world. Yasser Arafat was his nephew.
Adoph Hitlers book is admired and carried by many Muslim clerics in Gaza. 

I can write you many pages on this situation but please don't insult Jews and patronise us ( or Muslims for that matter) by saying we've always been at war and it goes back to the Bible etc. It doesn't it goes back to specific people and specific actions taken by those people who have declared that there will be no peace until every Jew is driven into the sea.

Look at the First World War, it's aftermath as regards the Middle East, the Balfour Declaration and the Nazis in Europe if you want a better understanding of the Middle East.


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## Tez3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if it's been going on so long it's turned into some kind of "genetic memory" thing......


 

What since 1919? hardly!


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## Tez3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Lynne said:


> You are right, God made a covenant with Isaac. I have forgotten so much biblical lore in the last few years. I guess it was the two pairs of brothers, Isaac and Ishmael, and Jacob and Esau? Oddly enough, some Jews are descendants of Ishmael. Religious? Jesus was a Palestinean Jew. This all gets so confusing


 

Sorry Lynne the Midlle East situation has nothing to do with this, as I said have a look at the end of the first World War when the Middle East was carved up by the Allies and follow what happened from there.


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## elder999 (Dec 30, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps a few facts rather than Biblical fancies.
> Jews and Muslims haven't been fighting each other for centuries let alone thousands of years, they have been at war since the Mufti of Jerusalem a avid admirer and supporter of Adoph Hitler called for Jews to be killed and driven from Palestine.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni
> 
> ...


 
I'd rep you if I could. Yours is the only sensible post here. :asian:


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## Tez3 (Dec 30, 2008)

elder999 said:


> I'd rep you if I could. Yours is the only sensible post here. :asian:


 
Thank you. It diminishes the seriousness of the problem out there if people don't understand what is going on. It's not an ancient Biblical feud going on, there's a situation there thats been brought about by our (US and UK) actions in the past. The UK in particular doesn't have a record to be proud of in that region. Promises were made, empires carved and people left to die, the hatred is modern and the solution needs to be as well. You can't shrug your shoulders and say 'well they've always been fighting' as it's simply not true.


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## elder999 (Dec 30, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> *, there's a situation there thats been brought about by our (US and UK) actions in the past. The UK in particular doesn't have a record to be proud of in that region. Promises were made, empires carved and people left to die, the hatred is modern and the solution needs to be as well.* .


 

There ya go being sensible , again....:lol:


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 30, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps a few facts rather than Biblical fancies.
> Jews and Muslims haven't been fighting each other for centuries let alone thousands of years, they have been at war since the Mufti of Jerusalem a avid admirer and supporter of Adoph Hitler called for Jews to be killed and driven from Palestine.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni
> 
> ...


 

I too, would rep you as well, also.


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## Tez3 (Dec 30, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I too, would rep you as well, also.


 
Ta but I'd be happier if you just read up the facts lol! and have a good New Year!


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## Lynne (Dec 31, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Ta but I'd be happier if you just read up the facts lol! and have a good New Year!


Thanks for the facts, Tez. I was parroting what I'd heard over and over in, well, church (dispensationalists). More brainwashing I suppose.


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## Tez3 (Dec 31, 2008)

It's a subject close to my heart, being fair though the Arabs were made a lot of promises that weren't kept. 
The whole Middle East situation including Iraq dates back to the end of the First World War, you can't carve up tribal terrorities and make royal families out of some and not others then not expect trouble. It's one reason we need to think ahead in our decisions about what to do now. We can make trouble for our children and grandchildren. 

In the 1940s millions of pounds of aid went to the palestinians who had displaced themselves when Israel gained Independance, this was to re locate them in the Bekaa Valley, it didn't happen and the money 'disappeared' leaving the refugee camps as we see them now and with the unrest caused there. the Palestinians were displaced by the israelis, they left their homes after the Arab leadership told them the jews were being driven into the sea and they could take over jewish homes, farms, business etc. As the Jews didn't end up in the sea, they were then left without their homes.

There are more Palestinians killed by Palestinians than are killed by the Israelis.
http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties_data.asp?Category=23&region=TER

There is a war going on between Hamas and Fatah for power that is claiming many Arab lives.


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## Brian King (Dec 31, 2008)

> "the Palestinians were displaced by the israelis,"


 
typo?

Regards
Brian King


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## Twin Fist (Dec 31, 2008)

a modern solution?

here's one:
carpet bombing

anyone that denies that the fanatics in Palistine will never stop is fooling themselves

Israel has been TOO NICE about this crap, for too many years.

Israel should turn Gaza into a parking lot.

screw public opinion, screw the "innocent palistinians" there is no such thing. For one thing, they are in fact JORDANIAN by and large, and they harbor the fanatics, so they aint innocent.


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## Tez3 (Dec 31, 2008)

Brian said:


> typo?
> 
> Regards
> Brian King


 
Yes, apologies. it should have been *weren't*. I'm off night shift and went shopping which was a huge mistake as fighting in the cage is easier than going into our local supermarket on New Years Eve!


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## Loki (Jan 4, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> a modern solution?
> 
> here's one:
> carpet bombing
> ...



Oh hey, great solution. Let's preemptively nuke Iran while we're at it. 

Israel's refusal to wipe out the Palestinians, which it could have very easily done, is what makes it any better than Hamas in the first place. Israel could have wiped out Lebanon in 2006, and it didn't for the same reasons.

You'd be surprised, but most Palestinians just want to live their lives. They elected Hamas because they were fed up with Fatah corruption. The decision was obviously a bad one, as Hamas doesn't seem to care how many Palestinian lives are lost in the process of achieving their political ends. But wiping out Gaza would be nothing short of genocide. Most Israelis' ancestors were on the receiving end of that once. And we're better than that.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 4, 2009)

gaza ran out of the "we just want to live here" excuse when they elected a terrorist orginazation

yes or no, carpet bombing would stop the rocket attacks?

yes

yes or no, can dead guys act as human not so smart bombs in israeli markets?

no

sounds like an effective plan to me.

sorry partner, but the idea of the "innocent palistinean" is false


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## Loki (Jan 4, 2009)

dude, that's just pure bigoted racism. nothing more.


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## Big Don (Jan 4, 2009)

Loki said:


> dude, that's just pure bigoted racism. nothing more.


On your part perhaps. Twin Fist and others are being realistic. Terrorists are by nature untrustworthy, and yet you suggest negotiation?
When they have broken every ceasefire by shooting rockets into Israel?
Yeah, they deserve what they get.


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## Loki (Jan 4, 2009)

Big Don said:


> On your part perhaps. Twin Fist and others are being realistic. Terrorists are by nature untrustworthy, and yet you suggest negotiation?
> When they have broken every ceasefire by shooting rockets into Israel?
> Yeah, they deserve what they get.



I didn't suggest negotiation. I suggested NOT annihilating Gaza. Despite what Twin Fist suggests, which is nothing short of genocide, it's unreasonable to believe that all Palestinians are bloodthirsty fanatics. Hamas should be crushed, not doubt, but it's crazy wipe out hundreds of thousands of INNOCENT people in the process.


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## Marginal (Jan 4, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> gaza ran out of the "we just want to live here" excuse when they elected a terrorist orginazation
> 
> yes or no, carpet bombing would stop the rocket attacks?
> 
> yes



Has carpet bombing ever worked as an effective anti terrorism tool?

No. 



> sounds like an effective plan to me.



It is not a moral plan in any case.


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## CoryKS (Jan 4, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> the Palestinians were [sic] displaced by the israelis, they left their homes after the Arab leadership told them the jews were being driven into the sea and they could take over jewish homes, farms, business etc. As the Jews didn't end up in the sea, they were then left without their homes.


 
This point cannot be made enough.  The Arabs who once lived here made a conscious choice to leave the area in order to facilitate a genocide against the Jews.  They were left homeless because their plan failed, thank god, and their situation continues because they still choose extermination over peaceful coexistence.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 4, 2009)

Marginal, 
I didnt say it was moral

war is in itself, not moral

in a fight, you dont worry about fighting clean, you worry about fighting WELL

and if the terrorists are gonna make us fight, i say give them one that they cant survive

in war, the only moral action is to destroy your enemy so totally, so completely, so utterly that you convince his relatives that looking for payback isnt a good idea.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 4, 2009)

Loki said:


> which is nothing short of genocide, it's unreasonable to believe that all Palestinians are bloodthirsty fanatics. Hamas should be crushed, not doubt, but it's crazy wipe out hundreds of thousands of INNOCENT people in the process.




how many wrong answers here?

1- not genocide, since there is no such thing as a palistinian. They are JORDANIAN, and jordan wont take them back.

2-if the palistinians were not bloodthirsty fanatics why elect a TERRORIST group to office?

3- there are no innocent people in palistine, they support terrorist, ergo, they are not innocent


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## Ninjamom (Jan 4, 2009)

I am not at all a fan of Hamas. In fact, I hope Israel doesn't stop its current efforts in Gaza until Hamas is completely annihilated.

However, history is not quite as one-sided or 'neat' as we would all like. In 1948 the nacent state of Israel did, in fact, forcibly march over 50,000 civilians out of Lydda and Ramle (two towns under what is now Lod), against their will. The properties were then looted and removed. The former residents wre never remunerated. Many died during the forced march.

The 'non-voluntary' nature of this removal of Arab civilians from Lydda was attested to by the US media on site, as well as by none other than former Israeli Prime Minster Rabin.



			
				excerpt from Wikipedia article on Lod said:
			
		

> *Modern history*
> 
> During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War the Haganah and Irgun captured Lydda in July 1948 in Operation Danny. Arab inhabitants were expelled, along with those of the nearby town of Ramla, numbering about 50,000 in all,[10] in order to secure the strategically important road connecting Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Israeli historian Benny Morris writes: "All the Israelis who witnessed the events agreed that the exodus, under a hot July sun, was an extended episode of suffering for the refugees, especially from Lydda...Some were stripped by soldiers of their valuables as they left town or at checkpoints along the way. Hundreds of civilians died in the scorching heat, from exhaustion, dehydration and disease.[11][12]
> 
> _complete Wiki article here._


 
There were Arab leaders who encouraged civilians to leave their homes in 1948 so the combined Arab armies could 'liberate' all lands of Jews, and many Arabs did leave voluntarily, with full hopes of returning. However, tens (perhaps hundreds) of thousands of Arab civilians were forcibly removed from their homes to secure a contiguous nation.

We do a disservice to history when we omit those parts not flattering to us and/or our causes. We ignore unpleasant facts at our own risk, as it guarantees we will never understand the sometimes legitimate grievances (mixed in with the inflated and illegitimate ones) of those opposed to us.


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## Ninjamom (Jan 4, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> ...... there are no innocent people in palistine, they support terrorist, ergo, they are not innocent


Funny thing - that's the same _il-_"logic" the Palestinian terrorists use to "justify" targeting Israeli civilians.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 4, 2009)

people in palistine=supporting and hiding terroists
people in israel=trying to live in peace surrounded by asshats trying to kill them

there IS a good guy and abad guy in this one, 

people in palistine are bad guys

israelis are good guys

real easy to figure out, ask yourself what would happen if they each put down thier arms

palistine quits fighting? israel leaves them alone.

israel quits fighting, the terrorists in palistine kill more israeli children


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## Big Don (Jan 4, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> palistine quits fighting? israel leaves them alone.
> israel quits fighting, the terrorists in palistine kill more israeli children


Every ceasefire has been broken, not by the Israelis, but, by the terrorist scum that calls themselves Palestinians.


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## Loki (Jan 5, 2009)

War can actually be moral, for instance in self-defense. It doesn't make it less ugly, but you can have a moral basis for waging war, which we all seem to agree Israel does.

Genocide is defined as the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group, usually state-sponsored. So you can call them "Palestinians" or "Jordanians living in Gaza" or whatever you like, but leveling Gaza would be genocide nonetheless.

Palestinians voted for Hamas in 2006 mostly out disappointment with Fatah, the ruling party up to that point. Fatah was corrupt, and embezzled hundreds of million of dollars intended for aid and revitalization of the Palestinian economy. And given the number of extremist groups running amok in Gaza, you can in no way assume that "democratic" elections in Gaza were in most ways similar to democratic elections in the US.

And if I were to say that children, for instance, are innocent, you'd probably say that they're well on their way to becoming terrorists, right?

It's very easy to just assume that they're all the same, terrorist-harboring bloodthirsty religious fanatics. That's pretty close to what their leaders are telling them about Israelis, as Ninjamom already mentioned. They had a lot of reasons to be angry with a lot of people, and they made a mistake by choosing a radical government. Israel is now working hard at showing them that mistake, without killing them all.


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## Tez3 (Jan 5, 2009)

Ninjamom said:


> I am not at all a fan of Hamas. In fact, I hope Israel doesn't stop its current efforts in Gaza until Hamas is completely annihilated.
> 
> However, history is not quite as one-sided or 'neat' as we would all like. In 1948 the nacent state of Israel did, in fact, forcibly march over 50,000 civilians out of Lydda and Ramle (two towns under what is now Lod), against their will. The properties were then looted and removed. The former residents wre never remunerated. Many died during the forced march.
> 
> ...


 

Perhaps but one persons truth is another lie. Who exactly forced the Arabs out of their homes? the Israelis? no. if you read up you will find it was the Irgun, a terrorist group. Israel isn't squeaky clean but believeing Arab propaganda doesn't help anyone. In 1948 there were far more Arabs than Jews in Israel plus the British army outnumbered the Jews too, they were also arming the Arabs. Many Jews were still in the concentration camp on Cyprus where the British had put them, the British weren't allowing Jewish immigrants into Palestine as it was then.
The Palestinians have brought this on themselves, or rather perhaps the gangsters have brought in on them, Hamas and Fatah are gangsters nor more or less, they have taken huge amounts of money and salted it away for themselves leaving their people to starve and suffer. They've lead the people and others to believe this is all the Israelis fault. Do you know how wealthy Yasser Arafat was when he died? How much money he had in foreign bank accounts? With all that money from the EC and the USA going into Gaza for redevelopment have you not wondered why it's still so poor?
The Palestinians don't have a chance until they have a properly democratic government, the lies will continue to be told, they believe them themselves of how Israel is the perpetual baddy and others believe them too. they deserve better, sadly I don't think they will ever get it.


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## CoryKS (Jan 5, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> The Palestinians don't have a chance until they have a properly democratic government, the lies will continue to be told, they believe them themselves of how Israel is the perpetual baddy and others believe them too. they deserve better, sadly I don't think they will ever get it.


 
Who was it who said, "The Palestinians never waste an opportunity to waste an opportunity"?  Truer words were never spoken.


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## CanuckMA (Jan 5, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps but one persons truth is another lie. Who exactly forced the Arabs out of their homes? the Israelis? no. if you read up you will find it was the Irgun, a terrorist group. Israel isn't squeaky clean but believeing Arab propaganda doesn't help anyone. In 1948 there were far more Arabs than Jews in Israel plus the British army outnumbered the Jews too, they were also arming the Arabs. Many Jews were still in the concentration camp on Cyprus where the British had put them, the British weren't allowing Jewish immigrants into Palestine as it was then.
> The Palestinians have brought this on themselves, or rather perhaps the gangsters have brought in on them, Hamas and Fatah are gangsters nor more or less, they have taken huge amounts of money and salted it away for themselves leaving their people to starve and suffer. They've lead the people and others to believe this is all the Israelis fault. Do you know how wealthy Yasser Arafat was when he died? How much money he had in foreign bank accounts? With all that money from the EC and the USA going into Gaza for redevelopment have you not wondered why it's still so poor?
> The Palestinians don't have a chance until they have a properly democratic government, the lies will continue to be told, they believe them themselves of how Israel is the perpetual baddy and others believe them too. they deserve better, sadly I don't think they will ever get it.


 

In addition, generally accepted numbers put the numbers of displaced Arabs, for whatever reason, at around 750,000. Also generally accepted and documented numbers, although conveniently never mentioned, puts the number of Jews displaced from Arab countries, in that same general period of time, at around 800,000.

The difference?

The Arab world forced their 'brothers' to live in squalor for political gains.

About 80% of the displaced Jews were taken in by the nascent State of Israel, the remainder going to other countries.


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## Ninjamom (Jan 5, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> >
> >
> >
> people in palistine are bad guys
> ...


People in Iran, North Korea, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela are badguys.
Americans are goodguys.
Let's just nuke all the badguys.


What has kept the US (the sole remaining superpower) from being a world-conquering global dictator is our (overall, for most of us) understanding that there is a fundamental difference between the *people* of a nation and the governments and dictators that sometimes rule over them.



Tez3 said:


> Perhaps but one persons truth is another lie. Who exactly forced the Arabs out of their homes? the Israelis? no. if you read up you will find it was the Irgun, a terrorist group.


Actually, the forced expulsion was carried out by the Yiftah Brigade of the IDF under command of then-Lt Col Yitzhak Rabin, who wrote about it and admitted as much in the original manuscript of his memoirs. (See, for example, "Making Israel", by Benny Morris, Professor of Middle East history at Ben-Gurion University, Beersheba, Israel. For an eye-opener, scroll down one page and click "Benny Morris" under 'Contents' on the left side to preview his article in this book specifically regarding this incident.)



> In 1948 there were far more Arabs than Jews in Israel plus the British army outnumbered the Jews too, they were also arming the Arabs. Many Jews were still in the concentration camp on Cyprus where the British had put them, the British weren't allowing Jewish immigrants into Palestine as it was then.
> The Palestinians have brought this on themselves, or rather perhaps the gangsters have brought in on them, Hamas and Fatah are gangsters nor more or less, they have taken huge amounts of money and salted it away for themselves leaving their people to starve and suffer. They've lead the people and others to believe this is all the Israelis fault.


This is all true.



> With all that money from the EC and the USA going into Gaza for redevelopment have you not wondered why it's still so poor?


 No, I haven't wondered, because I know where all that money went. The tyrants-at-the-top in Fatah and the surrounding Arabic nations have a 'vested interest' in maintaining the miserableness of the Palestinian way of life. Ever wonder why there are still people living in squalid 'refugee camps' 60-some years after the first war? Why haven't these families been assimilated into Israel or any of the surrounding nations?



> The Palestinians don't have a chance until they have a properly democratic government, the lies will continue to be told, they believe them themselves of how Israel is the perpetual baddy and others believe them too. they deserve better, sadly I don't think they will ever get it.


True again, and so tragically sad.


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## Big Don (Jan 5, 2009)

Israel did not just attack Gaza. The rockets had been falling for MONTHS, that is called a COUNTERATTACK. You know, SELF DEFENSE.
If there is any question in your mind about who the good guys and bad guys are in this one, you have issues.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 5, 2009)

Big Don said:


> If there is any question in your mind about who the good guys and bad guys are in this one, you have issues.




quoted for truth


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## Loki (Jan 6, 2009)

Big Don said:


> Israel did not just attack Gaza. The rockets had been falling for MONTHS, that is called a COUNTERATTACK. You know, SELF DEFENSE.
> If there is any question in your mind about who the good guys and bad guys are in this one, you have issues.



Hamas has been launching rockets for months. That makes them the bad guys. But many if not most Palestinian civilians are no more guilty than the poor Israelis in the south getting the rocket fire.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 6, 2009)

wrong again

they ELECTED hamas

the ALLOW hammas to set up rockets in civilian areas

they are not innocent, and you are not correct

why cant they NOT support the terrorist?

why cant they NOT allow them to set up rocket batteries nside thier apartment buildings?

CUZ THEY SUPPORT HAMAS ACTIONS

palistinians = terrorists

i hope the Israeli's kill them all.


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## Ninjamom (Jan 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> why cant they NOT support the terrorist?


 Q: Why can't North Koreans NOT support the 'Glorious Leader'?  
A: Because there's only so much you can do with a gun barrel jammed up against your head.




> palistinians = terrorists


This is just racist, bigotted verbal vomit.  Please stop spewing it.


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## elder999 (Jan 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> palistinians = terrorists
> 
> i hope the Israeli's kill them all.


 



Big Don said:


> On your part perhaps. Twin Fist and others are being realistic. Terrorists are by nature untrustworthy, and yet you suggest negotiation?
> When they have broken every ceasefire by shooting rockets into Israel?
> Yeah, they deserve what they get.


 
Ya know, I try to stay out of this particular debate, for a variety of reasons. Stuff like this being one of them. The others being the asbolute intractability of the history-the debate over whether 60 years ago, Arabs were removed, or removed themselves or both. The debate over whether the nation of Israel is a legitimate heir to the millennia of Hebrew kingdoms, or an imperialist, colonial state. Chiefly, though, the debate over U.S. support of Israel, and what it really means. In my cynicism over all this, I could almost believe that Israel is attacking Gaza just to use up hardware, so that they have to buy more from us (with our own money) to support the U.S. economy-that's how crazy making thinking about the situation over there has become for me, and I'd be content to see the entire middle east turned into one big glass parking lot, Arabs, Israelis, and Persians gone. That's not my call, thankfully, and I recognize that it's unreasonable, anyway, so I usually keep that* ugly *thought to myself. I have friends in Israel, friends here in the U.S. that are Jewish, Arab and Persian, after all.

In any case, sentiments like the ones expressed above can't help but remind me of the Sand Creek massacre, in 1864, when Col. John Chivington led a Colorado militia to kill 400 peaceful Arapahoe and Cheyenne women, elderly and children-the men were almost all off hunting, because they were camped under the American flag, and believed they were at peace. They didn't know that _"the only good Indian was a dead Indian."_ After the massacre, the troops proudly paraded through Denver with scalps and scalped genitalia, to the general acclaim of the crowd. Later, when there was an investigation, Chivington was asked why they had killed children, to which he replied_, "nits grow to be lice."_

Nice guy, Chivington-a Methodist minister, no less. 

So, basically, what I get when things like this are said-and, they're not an uncommon expression- is "_the only good Palestinian is a *dead* Palestinian,"_ this in spite of an Israeli (Loki) who is much closer to the situation than any of us, saying otherwise_. _In spite of the simple, human fact being that dehumanization of "our enemies" is the first and last step in dehumanizing ourselves.

Nice guys, I'm sure, though, who would say such an *ugly *thing.


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## Empty Hands (Jan 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> they ELECTED hamas
> 
> the ALLOW hammas to set up rockets in civilian areas
> 
> ...



This is, of course, the exact same moral argument made by al Qaeda and their ilk to support the murder of innocent American civilians.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 6, 2009)

Ninja Mom, 
The so called palistinians ELECTED HAMMAS, the north Koreans didnt elect Kim Jong Il, so your comparison FAILS

also

since there is no such race as "palistinian" the accusation of racism is ludicrous at best, delusional at worst. Am i biggoted towards terrorists? damned right i am. Why arnt you?

as far as you simply not agreeing with me, i couldnt care less. Your failure to know a bad guy when you see one isnt my problem.


and just for kicks: palistinian=terrorist

EH,
the difference being, if the hammas a-holes cut thier crap, the israelis would leave them alone. Just like the united states would leave the AQ types alone, if they would just stop causing US trouble.

Moral relativism is retarded, and you are many things, but you aint retarded,

stop it already, you know better

We would be more than happy to leave the arabs the hell alone, but they wont leave US alone, then blame us when we hit back

thats the same ignorant logic that hammas uses with israel

are you REALLY supporting thier insane point of view?


----------



## qwksilver61 (Jan 6, 2009)

Go israel!!!!!!!!!god be with you!!!!!!!


----------



## grydth (Jan 6, 2009)

I agree with Ninjamom in fully supporting Israel and with hoping that the present conflict ends with the destruction of Hamas. This cabal is nothing more than a murderous terrorist organization, not only by international classification, but by numerous deeds. 

The people trapped in Gaza are another thing entirely. Hamas is estimated to have 25,000 terrorists in Gaza (fewer now, as Israel has dispatched several hundred to Hell). There are estimated to be 1.4 million people in Gaza.

There is no justification for murdering all 1,400,000 of these human beings. It would, in the vernacular of law, be a Crime Against Humanity. 

Whether one terms them Palestinians or Jordanians or Muslims or simply Arabs matters not in the least. Placing a label on somebody does not make mass murder anything but that.

If some part of a population voted for Hamas, that hardly justifies murdering the entire population of Gaza. Even assuming _for argument_ the awful point that voting for Hamas justifies killing the voter...what about those who did not vote for Hamas, or did not vote at all? Then there are the tens of thousands of children - what sin at the polls did *they* commit?

What if some foreign nation launched an attack upon us because so many people voted for Hillary Clinton? 

I don't buy the notion that Palestinian kids are invariably future terrorists. Were that true, neither Germany nor Italy nor Japan would be the nations - and allies - that they are today. 

Israel can keep slowly squeezing until the Hamas death machine cracks - and it should do so. But turning Gaza into the new Nanking or Lidice would be a monstrous crime. I almost cannot believe that people are advocating that, but then, not much surprises me anymore.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jan 6, 2009)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5454204.ece 

Fighting intensified on the northern outskirts of Gaza City yesterday as a Hamas leader warned that the Islamists would kill Jewish children anywhere in the world in revenge for Israels devastating assault. 

They have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine, Mahmoud Zahar said in a televised broadcast recorded at a secret location. They have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people.


hammas attacks Israel, Israel returns the favor, so hammas uses that as an excuse to threaten CHILDREN


yeah, i can see why you guys are supporting them.............


----------



## Empty Hands (Jan 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, i can see why you guys are supporting them.............



No one on this thread has expressed support for Hamas.  They have opposed murdering every single innocent person surrounding Hamas.  I'm not surprised you see that as support, but no rational person should.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jan 6, 2009)

ad homs, however thinly veiled, are beneth you


----------



## Empty Hands (Jan 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> ad homs, however thinly veiled, are beneth you



Advocating genocide should be beneath you.

The point stands, anyway.  No one has here has expressed support for Hamas.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jan 6, 2009)

the palistinians supported Hamas by electing them, it is reasonable to assume that the man on the street supports hamas, since they did in fact elect them to power. Therefore, IMO, the palistinians deserve whatever happens to them as a result.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 6, 2009)

TF.  Hypothetically, lets say you were "Palestinian".  I'm assuming that you would have voted against Hamas in their election?  If so, and Hamas won anyway, would you deserve to die because you are "Palestinian"?  Would you still be a terrorist?


----------



## grydth (Jan 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> the palistinians supported Hamas by electing them, it is reasonable to assume that the man on the street supports hamas, since they did in fact elect them to power. Therefore, IMO, the palistinians deserve whatever happens to them as a result.



We should never advocate on a national scale something which we would be unwilling to do personally.

Would you be willing, and able, to shoot a room full of Palestinian kids based on your justification above?


----------



## Twin Fist (Jan 6, 2009)

I would leave rather than support a terrorist government

I would be phoning israeli military the locations of hamas sites before ai took off tho...



maunakumu said:


> TF.  Hypothetically, lets say you were "Palestinian".  I'm assuming that you would have voted against Hamas in their election?  If so, and Hamas won anyway, would you deserve to die because you are "Palestinian"?  Would you still be a terrorist?


----------



## Twin Fist (Jan 6, 2009)

kids dont vote



grydth said:


> We should never advocate on a national scale something which we would be unwilling to do personally.
> 
> Would you be willing, and able, to shoot a room full of Palestinian kids based on your justification above?


----------



## elder999 (Jan 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> kids dont vote


 
Dontcha mean, _"Nits grow to be lice_," then? :angry:


----------



## grydth (Jan 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> kids dont vote



Correct.... and a carpet bombing attack cannot distinguish between voters and nonvoters, rocket crews and mothers, Hamas voters and preschool children.

Now, consider why you would not have shot those children and you have the answer as to why the population of Gaza, all 1,400, 000 of them, should not be murdered.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 6, 2009)

i would take my kids away from there, palistinian parents teach thier kids to make bombs

I feel bad for the kids, but not the adults


----------



## Marginal (Jan 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> the palistinians supported Hamas by electing them, it is reasonable to assume that the man on the street supports hamas, since they did in fact elect them to power. Therefore, IMO, the palistinians deserve whatever happens to them as a result.


Isn't thinking like that what got Ward Churchill in trouble?


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 6, 2009)

Marginal said:


> Isn't thinking like that what got Ward Churchill in trouble?


 
No, but TF is painting with an overly broad brush. Not every muslim is a terrorist, not every Palestinian wishes for the death of Isreal, not everyone in the Gaza Strip deserves to die. He knows this, we know this, now its just a matter of letting the ego settle down so that a bad idea can be recognized.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 6, 2009)

Marginal said:


> Isn't thinking like that what got Ward Churchill in trouble?


  AGAIN with the moral relativism Marginal

if you cant tell the difference between the USA and Palistine, you got bigger problems than I thought


----------



## Marginal (Jan 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> AGAIN with the moral relativism Marginal
> 
> if you cant tell the difference between the USA and Palistine, you got bigger problems than I thought


You are arguing that they deserve annihilation because of their government's policies. Churchill argued that the US government's actions drew 9/11 as a reprisal. 

All inhabitants of a country are equally guilty for any action of that country seems the to be the only "argument" being offered in both cases.


----------



## Natty (Jan 6, 2009)

when I read twin fist's comment that he hopes everyone in the Gaza Strip is wiped out it is just inhumane. Many people do not want to be involved with the actions that HAMAS is involved with. They want to raise their families and live a normal life. And Israel has not been an angel either. They have not let food or medical supplies though despite a UN order, previous to the bombing. Both sides are not complying. There are many pieces to this puzzle. Iran is involved supplying HAMAS. If Israel is going to succeed,they need to dismantle HAMAS, not wipe out a ethnic group. Then sanctions need to be put on Iran. Killing innocents is not the answer. It makes Israel look just as bad, not the victim. I feel bad for the Israelis, but, this is not the way they should have handled the situation.


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## Tez3 (Jan 7, 2009)

Ninjamom said:


> People in Iran, North Korea, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela are badguys.
> Americans are goodguys.
> Let's just nuke all the badguys.
> 
> ...


 
Actually it was the Irgun. I think you are talking about something else as when the majority of Arabs were 'displaced' it was in February 1948,Israel was declared independent in May 1948. In the Declaration of Independance all Arabs who were at that time in Israel were given equal rights and citzenship, they chose not to take it.


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## Big Don (Jan 7, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> . In the Declaration of Independance all Arabs who were at that time in Israel were given equal rights and citizenship, they chose not to take it.


Just as they CHOOSE to continue to fire rockets into civilian areas, hide in schools, mosques and hospitals, and generally behave as cowards.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jan 7, 2009)

and AGAIN if you cant tell WHY one statement is retardedly stupid and one not so much, you have been poisoned by that moral relativism crap

not to mention that the two assertions simply dont match up

there is ample evidence that palistinians SUPPORT hamas, they voted them into power

there is no evidence that that idiot churchill was correct in his characterization of americas actions. Much less when he compared the victims of 9-11 to Eichman.

got that?

people going to work, minding thier own business, and he compares them to a Nazi.

Hamas=terrorists
New Yorkers DO NOT equal nazis

unless you think they do?

even using that as an example is seriously flawed, as it simply doesnt relate or compare.

Moral relativism is a sign of a polluted mind, infected with a self administered case of crainial-rectal inversion 




Marginal said:


> You are arguing that they deserve annihilation because of their government's policies. Churchill argued that the US government's actions drew 9/11 as a reprisal.
> 
> All inhabitants of a country are equally guilty for any action of that country seems the to be the only "argument" being offered in both cases.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 7, 2009)

Natty, i guess you missed the part with the arabs have broken every single cease fire.............

it sickens me how many people are willing to give TERRORISTS WHO TARGET ISRAELI CHILDREN a pass


----------



## Carol (Jan 7, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Natty, i guess you missed the part with the arabs have broken every single cease fire.............
> 
> it sickens me how many people are willing to give TERRORISTS WHO TARGET ISRAELI CHILDREN a pass




:asian:


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## Twin Fist (Jan 7, 2009)

you all are right, the israelis are animals, hamas is a bunch of fluffy bunny's and I am a done caring.


----------



## Marginal (Jan 7, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> and AGAIN if you cant tell WHY one statement is retardedly stupid and one not so much, you have been poisoned by that moral relativism crap
> 
> not to mention that the two assertions simply dont match up
> 
> ...


I do tend to equate US citizens advocating indiscriminate killing of an entire ethnic group regardless of guilt in actual terrorist acts as a final solution to the terrorist problem as equivalent to Nazis as they are stridently busy advocating the exact same methodologies. Incidentally, NY is not separate from the US. (In fact, NY and Texas are both under the same flag.)

Stating genocide is wrong is not moral relativism. (It's more adhering to a universal truth.) Stating genocide is cool as long as one of our allies would be the one doing it *is* moral relativism. (As is suggesting that when the US acts, it never errs and that we're always the good guys.)


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## Loki (Jan 7, 2009)

It's really easy to assume that elections are held the same in every country, and that it's really as democratic as it is in America.

Hamas is a militant organization, and when a militant organization runs for government, their campaign is usually just that - militant. I won't suggest the extreme idea that Hamas forced all their votes and that's how they won, but I certainly doubt that it was fully democratic.

Elections in Israel also don't go as planned all the time. In fact, 29 out of 31 prime ministers that Israel had never completed their term. The ones I can remember were always toppled because of no confidence. So we find ourselves more than once disappointed by our own leaders. PM Olmert is currently under multiple investigation for all kinds of financial felonies. Does that make all Israelis thieves? We voted for the guy.

In the previous elections in Israel, a party ran with the sole purpose of representing the elderly. The idea in itself is absurd (think of Obama limiting himself with the interests of African American and campaigning as such), but these guys got 6 out of 120 seats in the parliament. Do you know who voted for them? It wasn't the elderly. People from all ends of the political spectrum who have just had enough of everyone else. 

In the elections where Sharon was elected, a party called Shinui ("change") ran as a secular party, offering the legalization of civilian matrimony and public transportation on weekends (Israel is still bound by some religious laws). They didn't end up doing anything, and people were more hopeful than thoughtful when voting for them, but people have had enough of the religious parties forcing their dogma on our leaders and legislators.

Also keep in mind that conditions in Gaza were bad before. There weren't any real foundations for a normal society. In Germany in 1933, Adolf Hitler (Godwin's law, anyone?) rose to power for exactly the same reasons - conditions were bad and people wanted chage. 

So sometimes, people vote for radical candidates simply because they've had enough of everyone else lying to them for so long. 

Oh, and don't tell me you'd have gotten up and left Gaza if you were in their place. Where do you think you'd go? Hamas shot 70 Fatah members in the knees and broke some arms to make sure that Fatah doesn't aid Israel upon invasion. In their place, you'd either support Hamas or keep your opinion to yourself, because those were the only options you'd have.


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## Ninjamom (Jan 7, 2009)

<<deleted>>


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## grydth (Jan 7, 2009)

I wonder if those civilians Loki mentioned who were kneecapped or had their arms broken by Hamas are counted in the casualty figures of civilians we see in the hysterical media accounts every 11 seconds... some stories even mention, in a small line near the bottom, that several hundred terrorists have also been killed in the fighting.

Hamas killers have murdered a number of other people as well: merchants they decided were profiteering, those they decided were cooperating with Israel and a number even shot while in hospital. Do *THOSE* dead count in the figures?

How about the women and children killed by counter fire because Hamas mortar and rocket crews - those valiant warriors of Allah - were hiding behind them? Do they count anywheres?

How about those killed in mosques filled with Hamas weapons and civilian homes full of Hamas explosives? Those must be figured in somewheres....

You know, perhaps it is only my perception, but it seems the media is in a rush to tell us only about civilian deaths and to blame them on Israel. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems international efforts have taken on a "SAVE HAMAS!" character under the guise of saving the innocents... whom Hamas has murdered in so many ways.

In no way, shape or form would I support the murder of the Gaza population... but I think it in the best interest of both them and Israeli civilians that Hamas be crushed. Watch and see if misguided 'peacekeepers' don't manage to save Hamas.... who will murder again another day.


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## Natty (Jan 7, 2009)

I didn't deny HAMAS' violation of the order. In fact, I stated Iran is helping them and that HAMAS needs to be dismantled and sanctions need to be put on Iran. I agree, Iran is encouraging this garbage. However, children who have nothing to do with this do not deserve to starve to death. It disgusts me when I hear people say "go ahead, kill them let them starve." Have you been to war? Have you seen people starve to death? The problem is many Americans have never seen the effects war has on a society. I hope war never touches this soil. 9/11 was bad enough, but, 9/11 was a one day event, an attack. I'm talking a war that lasts for years. If that ever kit American soil, so many Americans would change their views on war in a snap. It's easy to declare a war, but, it's not easy to fight one.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 7, 2009)

thats where you are mistaken about the american spirit

were enemies on our soil, all the petty liberal conservative crap would go out the window

we would fight, to the death, the enemies to our way of life

the american spirit is still there, and it can return, with the proper motivation

we dont quit, we dont give up, we KILL our enemies

sure everything you said is correct, war bad, war sucks, etc

but a prolonged attack on OUR soil? that wouldnt break our fighting spirit, it would IGNITE it


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 8, 2009)

Natty said:


> I didn't deny HAMAS' violation of the order. In fact, I stated Iran is helping them and that HAMAS needs to be dismantled and sanctions need to be put on Iran. I agree, Iran is encouraging this garbage. However, children who have nothing to do with this do not deserve to starve to death. It disgusts me when I hear people say "go ahead, kill them let them starve." Have you been to war? Have you seen people starve to death? The problem is many Americans have never seen the effects war has on a society. I hope war never touches this soil. 9/11 was bad enough, but, 9/11 was a one day event, an attack. I'm talking a war that lasts for years. If that ever kit American soil, so many Americans would change their views on war in a snap. It's easy to declare a war, but, it's not easy to fight one.



Funny....my Scots-Irish ancestors dealt with that kind of conflict for decades as they settled America....and it did nothing but harden their resolve and make them more lethal!  Who do you think fought the native Americans tooth and nail for every inch of this land?  I think you're mistaken about the American Spirit......WE have lived so long without this kind of conflict PRECISELY because, historically, America was founded by hard and violent people who didn't tolerate enemies on their borders!

And if Mexico were launching rockets in to Texas, MEXICO would cease to exist as a separate entity, we'd annex it, turn the current Mexican side of the border in to a demilitarized zone, and begin HANGING terrorists!  

What Israel's situation PROVES in reality is that HALF-MEASURES don't work......TOTAL war works.  The enemy submits, or the enemy gets ANNIHILATED!   Israel is not responsible for PALESTINIAN women and children, Palestinian men are....THEY know what needs to be done to protect their women and children, and if they had an INTEREST in it, they wouldn't HIDE AMONGST THEIR WOMEN AND CHILDREN!


However, we live in a modern world where WESTERN CIVILIZATION has become a whipped sorry version of itself, and is too timid, cowardly and morally confused to understand effective action.......action that the EASTERN WORLD still understands quite well.  The UN and all the moral handwringing about 'Negotiations' and 'Peace Settlements' is nothing but an example of how the west has lost it's TESTICLES!  In another 50 years or less we'll have lost everything else as well.


Simply thinking deep intellectual thoughts about war, and how awful it is, and how you would give EVERYTHING to avoid it, ironically enough, actually INVITES ATTACK!  You can have no PEACE without VICTORY!


----------



## Loki (Jan 8, 2009)

You know what else works? Being the world's largest superpower. Do you think America is under half as much international pressure as Israel for the almost 6 year long war in Iraq, which many people claim it has much fewer reasons to wage in the first place? Even with 76%  of the global population (BBC poll) opposing it?

You're totally oversimplifying the situation Israel is in. Do you think it's the American spirit alone that allows America to do as it pleases? There's the whole issue of international relations that you choose to conveniently ignore. And it's there, whether you like it or not.

The world, for the most part, doesn't like Israel, don't ask me why. Never has. So except for rare situations such as some support we're getting for this round, we're usually told to stop whatever military action we're in the middle of, even if it's self-defense. A British movement has already called for boycotting us, and demonstrations against Israel are rampant, even during peacetime.

I have no criticism towards the American spirit or American way of life, in fact I admire many of its aspects, but don't go flaunting it like we'd be in the same situation even if you were under attack, and talking about total war like it's just a matter of cojones.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 8, 2009)

Loki said:


> You know what else works? Being the world's largest superpower. Do you think America is under half as much international pressure as Israel for the almost 6 year long war in Iraq, which many people claim it has much fewer reasons to wage in the first place? Even with 76% of the global population (BBC poll) opposing it?
> 
> You're totally oversimplifying the situation Israel is in. Do you think it's the American spirit alone that allows America to do as it pleases? There's the whole issue of international relations that you choose to conveniently ignore. And it's there, whether you like it or not.
> 
> ...


 

Quoted for truth!

We are already experiencing problems here as threats against the Jewish community have been heightened  due to the call by Hamas to treat all Jewish communities, schools etc as targets. If anyone thought the Jewish people were no longer the target of anti Semitism they are very sadly mistaken, there has never been a time where were weren't targeted by
someone
http://www.thecst.org.uk/docs/Incidents_Report_07.pdf

To quote from this document and highlight as Loki says the hatred of us....

An organisation which campaigns against the
academic boycott of Israel received an email
that read: Let me tell you that Jews
command no respect and deserve no
sympathy, because they are evil by nature
and rotten to the core. The illegal Israeli has
its base in terrorism (sic). There was no legal
or moral justification for uprooting the
innocent Palestinians and confiscating their
land by the scum of the earth know as Jews
(sic). The Jews once blessed people defied
and played tricks with God turned out to be
the most greedy, cunning and ungrateful one
(sic)I firmly believe that all Jews will burn in
hell and in comparison Auschwitz will be like a
holiday camp. It is never too late for the Jews
to reflect on their misdeeds and repent
because God is Great and Compassionate.
The email was referred by Police to the Crown
Prosecution Service, who declined to
prosecute the alleged sender of the email.


Please remember too that America and Great Britain refused to take refugees from Hitlers Germany who had to return and be destroyed in the Holocaust. Both countries knew about the extermination of Jews, gays, handicapped people, communists, Jehovahs Witnesses etc well before the war was declared but chose to do nothing about it. No help was given either to get refugees to Palestine, it was a case of 'we don't want to know'. 

Like Loki I'm not criticising America but please do see the situation for what it is.​


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## elder999 (Jan 8, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Who do you think fought the native Americans tooth and nail for every inch of this land?!


 
Thieves and bandits. Criminal squatters.Usurpers and swindlers. Con men and liars. Men who'd make peace treaties and then break them for material gain.People who would steal entire generations of another from their homes, ship them as cargo, keep them in bondage and claim the fruits of their labor as their own. _*People without honor.*_ :angry:

Homicidal _*terrorists*_. :lfao:


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 8, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Thieves and bandits. Criminal squatters.Usurpers and swindlers. Con men and liars. Men who'd make peace treaties and then break them for material gain.People who would steal entire generations of another from there homes, ship them as cargo, keep them in bondage and claim the fruits of their labor as their own. _*People without honor.*_ :angry:
> 
> Homicidal _*terrorists*_. :lfao:


 My ancestors didn't make those treaties.....you're thinking of the English decendents in Washington.  My ancestors just used the same tactics that the natives used.....the rifle, the tomahawk, the scalping knife.....if they had no honor, then neither did the people they were fighting. 

And as I recall there existed several thriving slave cultures indigenous to the America's prior to any Europeans ever showing up.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 8, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> My ancestors didn't make those treaties.....you're thinking of the English decendents in Washington.


No, I'm *not*.



sgtmac_46 said:


> My ancestors just used the same tactics that the natives used.....the rifle, the tomahawk, the scalping knife.....if they had no honor, then neither did the people they were fighting.


 
Hmmmm....whatever, but:



Big Don said:


> Re No Peace in the Holy Land
> 
> *snip!*
> *If one of your neighbors shot at your house at random intervals you wouldn't just take that, would you*?


 
Let's reverse this statement: if all your "neighbors" wouldn't let you leave the house, wouldn't let anyone bring in food or medicine  for your children unless they said so, I mean, no matter how right they were to do it, or how right they thought they were _you wouldn't just take that, would you?_


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jan 8, 2009)

elder999 said:


> No, I'm *not*.


 Oh yes you are, your statement shows ignorance of Scots-Irish culture in America.......we lived on the frontiers with the native tribes, inter-married with native tribes, fought with native tribes.





elder999 said:


> Hmmmm....whatever, but:


 There is no 'whatever'....either BOTH of us were without 'honor' or neither of was......sour grapes over losing, doesn't mean that the winner was 'without honor'. 





elder999 said:


> Let's reverse this statement: if all your "neighbors" wouldn't let you leave the house, wouldn't let anyone bring in food or medicine  for your children unless they said so, I mean, no matter how right they were to do it, or how right they thought they were _you wouldn't just take that, would you?_


 Life is conflict.....someone wins, someone loses......and usually once that's started, it doesn't end until it's resolved.  

You're digging for an empathetic argument....HOPING that if you hit the right 'You can see how they feel....' tone, you'll make your point......but the REALITY is that I wouldn't USE MY WOMEN AND CHILDREN AS A WEAPON AS THE PALESTINIANS ARE DOING!    Surely someone who talks about 'honor' can understand what HIDING BEHIND THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN is.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 8, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Oh yes you are, your statement shows ignorance of Scots-Irish culture in America.......we lived on the frontiers with the native tribes, inter-married with native tribes, fought with native tribes.


 
Not ignorance-I know exactly where my freckles come from. :lol:

I'm just expressing the sentiment that _they should have stayed *where they came from.*_ And lumping all the Europeans in the same boat-that's what you did with the Indians, after all.....



sgtmac_46 said:


> You're digging for an empathetic argument....HOPING that if you hit the right 'You can see how they feel....' tone, you'll make your point......but the REALITY is that I wouldn't USE MY WOMEN AND CHILDREN AS A WEAPON AS THE PALESTINIANS ARE DOING! Surely someone who talks about 'honor' can understand what HIDING BEHIND THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN is.


 
Not digging for any argument at all-just pointing out that there *are* two sides to the story.Sure, I can undedrstand that the actions of Hamas are not only without honor, they're fruitless and pointless.

Of course, so were the actions of the IRA, but a lasting peace has been negotiated there. 

When I posted earlier, I said I try not to get drawn into this debate for a variety of reasons. We can simply agree to disagree if you like, though in some ways I agree with you and some I don't...only reason I butted in is because of your glurge about "fighting the Indians tooth and nail."


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jan 8, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Not ignorance-I know exactly where my freckles come from. :lol:
> 
> I'm just expressing the sentiment that _they should have stayed *where they came from.*_ And lumping all the Europeans in the same boat-that's what you did with the Indians, after all.....


 Well we didn't,and here we are.....and guess what....WE WON!  No apologies......there's not a spot of occupied ground on this planet that wasn't built on the bodies of previous inhabitants! 




elder999 said:


> Not digging for any argument at all-just pointing out that there *are* two sides to the story.Sure, I can undedrstand that the actions of Hamas are not only without honor, their fruitless and pointless.


 There's actually MORE than two sides.......but ultimately you have to pick a side, because playing the middle doesn't generally work.....it keeps a conflict on the low simmer for a couple decades until it flashes over and explodes.



elder999 said:


> Of course, so were the actions of the IRA, but a lasting peace has been negotiated there.


 Lasting....so FAR!



elder999 said:


> When I posted earlier, I said I try not to get drawn into this debate for a variety of reasons. We can simply agree to disagree if you like, though in some ways I agree with you and some I don't...only reason I butted in is because of your glurge about "fighting the Indians tooth and nail."


 My ancestors did fight the native americans tooth and nail.....but that's not a sign of disrespect to the native americans.  This country was founded on blood and conflict on ALL sides.....and the ultimate irony is that, while taking this land from the native peoples, it ultimately took on a bit of the native character.......we can't see it, but Europeans certainly can.......they view us that way, as violent savages....our culture of individual violence, our fierce individualism and desire for individual liberty.....these didn't come from Europe!


Of course it doesn't hurt that many folks today have native blood in their veins.  I'm 1/8 Lakota......my half sister is 1/2 Northern Paiute.........but blood doesn't make a nation, culture does.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 8, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Not ignorance-I know exactly where my freckles come from. :lol:
> 
> I'm just expressing the sentiment that _they should have stayed *where they came from.*_ And lumping all the Europeans in the same boat-that's what you did with the Indians, after all.....
> 
> ...


 
I'm afraid there isn't peace still, despite signing agreements etc there is still fighting and there are still terrorist incidents, it's just that since 9/11, Iraq and Afghanistan there has been little publicity. Not all the groups signed a peace agrrement, there's groups from both sides that have kept their weapons and take actions against each other.
Of course things are far better than they have been, but always lurking in the background is the threat of violence.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 8, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'm afraid there isn't peace still, despite signing agreements etc there is still fighting and there are still terrorist incidents, it's just that since 9/11, Iraq and Afghanistan there has been little publicity. Not all the groups signed a peace agrrement, there's groups from both sides that have kept their weapons and take actions against each other.
> Of course things are far better than they have been, but always lurking in the background is the threat of violence.



Again it's that low-simmer back burner I was referring to.....these conflicts sit their for years sometimes, even decades, waiting to explode!

But.....that's human nature.....conflict is our existence......if we didn't have a desire for conflict, we'd still be hanging out in the trees, going comfortably extinct like our cousins the bonobos.


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## Natty (Jan 8, 2009)

Simply thinking deep intellectual thoughts about war, and how awful it is, and how you would give EVERYTHING to avoid it, ironically enough, actually INVITES ATTACK! You can have no PEACE without VICTORY!

Well, unlike you hawk guys, I prefer to think with my mind and not with my hormones. I had family who grew up in war zones. My family came over from Belfast from a very hard life. We had family who stayed and still have family over there. We had to worry about their safety throughout the year and especially during the Orangemen Marching times during July. I have family who have been killed by the British, who were captured by them during the second world war. They have PTSD and cannot talk about the experiences they had. My grandmother who is in her eighties is just starting to talk and I think it is because she wants peace before she dies. My family came here to America to escape that daily hell and to live a decent life. They did not want their kids to be full of hate of others. If someone attacks us here, you better believe I'll fight to the end. But I don't want to encourage it. As for the comment for thinking too deeply about it, I study history and focus mainly on totalitarian governments. I have studied many wars and many horrific events that have taken place on this earth, especially in the 20th century. You think what the press shows you is bad? That's the tip of the iceberg. That is why I have the attitude I have. Not to push our country down, I never would, our people always will come first no matter what the situation is. In fact, I don't think the government does enough for Americans. But, America needs to look at the facts before taking an action. If you don't it backfires.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 8, 2009)

here are the facts:

Hamas=terrorist scum

Israel=trying to live life in peace surrounded by irrational enemies bent on thier destruction

there are really only 2 choices:

lay down and die

or

kill the people trying to kill you

they have been using the 3rd option, containment.

That one that doesnt work, as it allows the bad guys to break every cease fire then cry wolf when you hit back

and with so many misguided idiots willing to give the BAD GUYS a pass......


Want the violence to stop? get the islamics to cut the crap.

You all know full well that if the islamics cut thier crap, the Israeli's are perfectly willing to let them live in peace.


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## Loki (Jan 8, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> here are the facts:
> 
> Hamas=terrorist scum
> 
> ...



What does any of this even mean?


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## Twin Fist (Jan 8, 2009)

if you cant figure it out, that explains a LOT.............


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## Sukerkin (Jan 8, 2009)

Now, now, *TF*, you might want to phrase your responses a little more respectfully when the views of someone who actually lives with this dangerous situation day in and day out are given?  Or am I misinterpreting your brevity ?

Modern Israel's history, as *Loki* can no doubt tell us, has been a battle from day one.  I mean no disrespect to the people who live there but the reason for that is that we, the West, 're-invented' a vanished nation by stealing the land of those who have been there for quite some time.

It is not a surprise that the Palestinians have never ceased in their resistance and even less that the extremists amongst them are the ones that have risen to the top as a consequence.  It would have been no different if the attempt to give back a homeland to the Jews had been to carve out a New Jerusalem here in Staffordshire, uprooting people who have lived here for millenia.  We too would never cease in fighting to repel what was, to us, an invasion - no matter what the odds.

It is how to deal with the consequences of that wrong-headed decision that is the problem.  I for one cannot see a way to a solution that is not 'final' in the Third Reich meaning and that, to me, is morally unacceptable.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 8, 2009)

no Mark, i simply cannot believe that ANYONE could be confused by what i wrote. i just re-read what i posted, it is by any standard above "6 year old" pretty easy to understand.

not agree with, but understand. he didnt say he didnt agree, he asked what it meant.

the question seems to indicate that he cant comprehend what i wrote. A reading comprehension problem would explain a LOT.

i was being insulting. Just literal.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 8, 2009)

why wernt the jews in possesion of thier land in the 1940's?

thats right, driven out by muslim agression

whats the current problem?

thats right, muslim agression

what is the biggest threat to the US, and the entire world for that matter?

(do I really need to say it?)

seems like a pattern to me.............

and before anyone throws the racist card again, i dont have a problem with muslims by and large, tho i DO have a problem with islam. The only muslims I have a problem with are the ones that want to KILL EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THE PLANET THAT ISNT MUSLIM, and the ones that support the ones that do


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## Sukerkin (Jan 8, 2009)

:tup:.  

I reckoned that you hadn't meant your follow-up to come across as being so 'cutting' or that, maybe, it was just me with my overly developed 'polite conversation' sensibilities kicking in again .


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## Twin Fist (Jan 8, 2009)

There you go being brittish again.............

seriously, how DO you people ever get into arguments? the divorce rate in England must be little to nil


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## Sukerkin (Jan 8, 2009)

As to why there wasn't an Israel for a large number of centuries, well, on this one I don't think you quite have the historical 'ducks in a row', so to speak.

The origins of the Muslim faith post-date the destruction of a Jewish nation by about half a millenia; or as far as I know anyhow i.e. no guarantees. It was, I think, in fact the Romans who were the architects of the beginning of that dismantling.

I only quickly Googled these two links up so please feel free to shoot holes in them if they prove sub-par and I'll dig deeper.


http://www.important.ca/origins_of_islam.html

http://wsu.edu/~dee/HEBREWS/DIASPORA.HTM


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## elder999 (Jan 8, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Now, now, *TF*, you might want to phrase your responses a little more respectfully when the views of someone who actually lives with this dangerous situation day in and day out are given? Or am I misinterpreting your brevity ?


 
Nah-he's a Texan, that's all. :lol: 



Sukerkin said:


> Modern Israel's history, as *Loki* can no doubt tell us, has been a battle from day one. I mean no disrespect to the people who live there but the reason for that is that we, the West, 're-invented' a vanished nation by stealing the land of those who have been there for quite some time.
> 
> It is not a surprise that the Palestinians have never ceased in their resistance and even less that the extremists amongst them are the ones that have risen to the top as a consequence. It would have been no different if the attempt to give back a homeland to the Jews had been to carve out a New Jerusalem here in Staffordshire, uprooting people who have lived here for millenia. We too would never cease in fighting to repel what was, to us, an invasion - no matter what the odds.
> 
> It is how to deal with the consequences of that wrong-headed decision that is the problem. I for one cannot see a way to a solution that is not 'final' in the Third Reich meaning and that, to me, is morally unacceptable.


 

I don't know how "wrong headed" it was-I've my own opinions, but they're mostly based on a bias against "colonialism," for lack of a better word. Growning up, my best friends up the street were a wonderful Dutch family. They had ties to South Africa, and I was, like many Americans, against apartheid. In the end, to remain friends-and I'm speaking of Mr. and Mrs. van den Berg here, and they think the world of me-we simply agreed not to discuss it. I find myself in the same place with Israel. Very often, in many people's minds, to speak against Israel is to be anti-semitic, which I'm not. Or to be pro-Arab, or pro-Palestinian, which I'm not. In fact, I largely confine my distaste to U.S. policy towards Israel, which is another, convoluted and ridiculous matter altogether. 

There can be no doubt about the *right*, after 60 years, for the nation of Israel to exist, though its coexistence with its neighbors is always in doubt. There can be no doubt about the right of the Palestinians-or whatever one wants to call the Arabs who have lived within the borders of Gaza, the West Bank and Israel itself-to exist and have, as the U.S., the U.N., and Israel themselves have asserted, to a state of their own. 

It has been over a week now. Over 700 Palestinians and 11 Israelis have been killed (seven of them soldiers), and more than 3,000 Palestinians have been injured. 25 percent of the dead are non-combatants: women, children, and the old. Today, the U.N suspended humanitarian aid to Gaza, in the wake of a U.N. truck being shelled by an Israeli tank, and the death of the truck's driver. In the fog of war, the only certainty is that these numbers will rise.By now every major organization and nation has issued a position statement on the violence, and the pundits have been practicing their craft on the news channels for some time. 

At the end of the day there *will* be an agreement, so why do they have to go through this process of killing and shedding blood first? Why can&#8217;t they stop? Why do they need for each other to suffer so terribly? 

In Sderot, like in other cities in the Israeli South, the rockets fall as they have for some time now. There, hatred surely grows, *and rockets cannot extinguish it*.The sirens wail at random, and residents are urged to run to their shelters in hopes they will make it in time. Sderot is a little over a mile from Gaza. A rocket can reach Sderot in nine seconds.Meanwhile, young Israeli men and women are on the way to or already in Gaza. They are actors in a stage not of their making, victims of the past. The basest of them take vengeance in their anger, sharing feelings, no doubt, like those expressed by TF, and the _compassionate _amongst them are caught between sympathy and duty. 

In Gaza, hatred surely grows, and *bombs cannot extinguish it*. The old bury the young, the young watch the old whither, dignity is a memory, and peace but a forgotten shadow. The scale of the destruction and death is beyond my imagination. 

Hamas blames Israel for breaking the cease-fire by sending troops into Gaza on November 4th and for not complying with the conditions of the cease-fire or allowing significant levels of goods and humanitarian aide to flow into Gaza. How long, Hamas asks, can they show restraint while Gazans starve in the dark? Cease-fire or no cease-fire, the conditions are the same; what is the difference between a swift death or a slow one? 
Israel cannot be asked to live with an organization whose history includes dispatching suicide bombers to kill its citizens. Israel blames Hamas for the blockade and points out-*correctly* that Hamas that has been firing rockets at civilians. 

Around the world, pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli groups echo these arguments louder and louder every day. No one ever wins the rhetorical battles *because no one can. *It is *wrong* for an occupying power to starve a population and force it to live in poverty, and it is *wrong* to fire rockets at civilians forcing them to live in fear. Deep down each side acknowledges its culpability, but cannot show mercy. Both are blind in one eye while the other eye only looks in the mirror to see its own pain. Each side claims it must act because it, after-all, is the victim. 

Fear, hatred, death, uncertainty and fanaticism rule the day. The battle for Gaza will continue, long after the last round is fired, and we, who are "outside" of all this, can only watch on, in horror, or _cheering_, not knowing what consequences these events may hold for _our own homes, and our own people_ in the weeks and months to come.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 8, 2009)

elder999 said:


> At the end of the day there *will* be an agreement, so why do they have to go through this process of killing and shedding blood first?




I don't believe there can.  That's why I said that the only solution I can see, that ends this treadmill of violence, is the effective removal of one of the 'sides'. 





elder999 said:


> In Gaza, hatred surely grows, and *bombs cannot extinguish it*. The old bury the young, the young watch the old whither, dignity is a memory, and peace but a forgotten shadow. The scale of the destruction and death is beyond my imagination.


 
Absolutely.  The reflection on the Israeli side is equally vivid for they too are fighting for their very survival, as they see it (tho' I'd dearly like to hear what *Loki* has to say on this as my last long-term close contact with an Israeli was a Sgt. who studied Economics with me in the '80's).





elder999 said:


> Deep down each side acknowledges its culpability, but cannot show mercy. Both are blind in one eye while the other eye only looks in the mirror to see its own pain. Each side claims it must act because it, after-all, is the victim.





elder999 said:


> Fear, hatred, death, uncertainty and fanaticism rule the day.




Oh so very true.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 8, 2009)

roman aggression then

when have the jews EVER started the fight?


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## elder999 (Jan 8, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> roman aggression then
> 
> when have the jews EVER started the fight?


 
Yer kidding, right?


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## Sukerkin (Jan 8, 2009)

Now that is an interesting question, John. 

Supposedly it (the dissolution of Israel) has it's real roots in biblical times and the destruction of the Jewish nation was a terminal result of actions of theirs that offended God.

I wouldn't like to comment further on that as it'd drag this thread off it's course of discussing the present problems.

In recent decades, there have been examples of where Israel instigated conflict - sometimes very successfully indeed in terms of military results (as Egypt, amongst others, will confirm). The whys and wherfores of whether such attacks were pre-emptive is another discussion.

It's well out of date nowadays but a book I could suggest as a good thumbnail of the military situation that pertained a few decades ago is "The Israeli War Machine" by Ian V. Hogg, published in 1983 by Book Club Associates for Hamlyn (I don't have an ISDN number for it I'm afraid (it might be that the CN 5621 on the back cover is a useful reference))


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## Twin Fist (Jan 8, 2009)

wow, eloquent





elder999 said:


> Nah-he's a Texan, that's all. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Ramirez (Jan 8, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> screw public opinion, screw the "innocent palistinians" there is no such thing. For one thing, they are in fact JORDANIAN by and large, and they harbor the fanatics, so they aint innocent.



Including the 4 year old girl whose body was lying in the rubble of that UN school?  Nice.


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## elder999 (Jan 8, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> roman aggression then
> 
> when have the jews EVER started the fight?


 


> 9 Joshua said to the Israelites, "Come here and listen to the words of the LORD your God. 10 This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites. *Joshua 3:9-10*
> 
> Then the LORD said to Joshua, "See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men. 3 March around the city once with all the armed men. Do this for six days. 4 Have seven priests carry trumpets of rams' horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets. 5 When you hear them sound a long blast on the trumpets, have all the people give a loud shout; then the wall of the city will collapse and the people will go up, every man straight in."
> 
> 20 When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it&#8212;men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys* Joshua 6*


 
Of course, these were the _Hebrews_. They weren't "Jews" until the fall of Jerusalem, and the rise of rabbinical Judaism, from 70 AD onward, but you get the idea.

Pretty sure you'd read the Bible, TF-it's full of stuff like this: God says, "Go down there and KILL EVERYBODY," .......and they do.

I'm only going to mention the terrorist actions of Ben Gurion and the like, that lead to what the British called "Palestine" becoming the modern state of Israel, but I think that's a fight they started as well......


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## Ramirez (Jan 8, 2009)

elder999 said:


> this: God says, "Go down there and KILL EVERYBODY," .......and they do.
> 
> I'm only going to mention the terrorist actions of Ben Gurion and the like, that lead to what the British called "Palestine" becoming the modern state of Israel, but I think that's a fight they started as well......



That deserves more than a mention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)


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## Twin Fist (Jan 8, 2009)

so either 70AD, or pre 1948

yeah, those bastards..............

you know, talking about a modern problem and bringing up biblical era examples might just be silly..........


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## elder999 (Jan 8, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> so either 70AD, or pre 1948
> 
> yeah, those bastards..............
> 
> you know, talking about a modern problem and bringing up biblical era examples might just be silly..........


 
Perhaps, but not *nearly* as silly as speaking in absolutes:



Twin Fist said:


> roman aggression then
> 
> *when have the jews EVER started the fight?*


 
...especially when you consider the Biblical reasons used by so many to support the modern state in the first place.

:lfao:


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## Ninjamom (Jan 8, 2009)

Lest we forget:

Attack on the USS Liberty in international waters during the 1967 Six Days War: 34 US dead and 170 wounded.


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## elder999 (Jan 8, 2009)

double post, sorry-damn big fingers.....


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## elder999 (Jan 8, 2009)

Ninjamom said:


> Lest we forget:
> 
> Attack on the USS Liberty in international waters during the 1967 Six Days War: 34 US dead and 170 wounded.


 

Can 'o worms there. Can't say anything. Let's chalk it up to thread drift.

_I *can't* say anything_ else.


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## Carol (Jan 8, 2009)

* closes can of worms *


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## Twin Fist (Jan 8, 2009)

the biblical reasons for giving it to them was just the excuse, the reason it happened was a profound sense of GUILT for letting the holocaust happen.

that being said, since since israel has been under constant attack for DECADES, I am not gonna second guess them this time.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 8, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Can 'o worms there. Can't say anything. Let's chalk it up to thread drift.
> 
> _I *can't* say anything_ else.


 
Are you talking about the plot to intentionally draw the US into war with Egypt?  That would be thread drift...


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 9, 2009)

Natty said:


> Simply thinking deep intellectual thoughts about war, and how awful it is, and how you would give EVERYTHING to avoid it, ironically enough, actually INVITES ATTACK! You can have no PEACE without VICTORY!
> 
> Well, unlike you hawk guys, I prefer to think with my mind and not with my hormones. I had family who grew up in war zones. My family came over from Belfast from a very hard life. We had family who stayed and still have family over there. We had to worry about their safety throughout the year and especially during the Orangemen Marching times during July. I have family who have been killed by the British, who were captured by them during the second world war. They have PTSD and cannot talk about the experiences they had. My grandmother who is in her eighties is just starting to talk and I think it is because she wants peace before she dies. My family came here to America to escape that daily hell and to live a decent life. They did not want their kids to be full of hate of others. If someone attacks us here, you better believe I'll fight to the end. But I don't want to encourage it. As for the comment for thinking too deeply about it, I study history and focus mainly on totalitarian governments. I have studied many wars and many horrific events that have taken place on this earth, especially in the 20th century. You think what the press shows you is bad? That's the tip of the iceberg. That is why I have the attitude I have. Not to push our country down, I never would, our people always will come first no matter what the situation is. In fact, I don't think the government does enough for Americans. But, America needs to look at the facts before taking an action. If you don't it backfires.


 Allow me to explain my comment on pondering too deeply both sides.....KNOWING and EMPATHIZING are two different things.....I thoroughly study both sides of an issue......that's a good thing.  I don't find any benefit, however, to empathizing with both sides of a situation.....that much analysis creates paralysis......and often times what people call 'thinking' is really feeling. 

As for studying history.....i'm a long time student of history well.....not just the 20th century, but the entirety of human history.  Mankind was born of conflict, conflict was what seperated the chimpanzee from the bonobo, and the ability to use tools in conflict is what allowed our ancestors to grow, evolve and spread throughout the planet.  Conflict is part of our genes, and that's not going to change any time in the near future.

There is a common misbelief among those of the wishful thinking variety that believe that human evil is some new phenomenon of governments, or organizations, or religions, of ways of thinking.....and if we return to some earlier model everything will be better......man is, at his core, a killer!  The irony is that what civilization and peace we DO have was purchased at the point of a sword with the blood of other people.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 9, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Now, now, *TF*, you might want to phrase your responses a little more respectfully when the views of someone who actually lives with this dangerous situation day in and day out are given?  Or am I misinterpreting your brevity ?
> 
> Modern Israel's history, as *Loki* can no doubt tell us, has been a battle from day one.  I mean no disrespect to the people who live there but the reason for that is that we, the West, 're-invented' a vanished nation by stealing the land of those who have been there for quite some time.
> 
> ...


 Given the duplicity of Grand Mufti of Palestine (Arafat's uncle) with the REAL Third Reich, and his pressing of Hitler to come up with a final solution, the whole thing is rather ironic.

As to homelands, this conflict is REALLY about the Islamic world being insulted at a non-Islamic state existing in the midst, and the use of the Palestinians as proxies to resolve that insult.


As proof.....there are numerous states in the middle east arbitrarily created in the 20th Century, each with ethnic populations claiming independence.....YET since all of those states are ISLAMIC most folks have never heard of those conflicts......the only one of interest is the sole non-Islamic state that offends the Islamic world.  There is no push for a Kurdish homeland by the Arab League, or a discussion of how the mythical Palestine includes a portion of Jordan.




At the end of the day.....Israel EXISTS!  And since there isn't a spot on this planet that is occupied that wasn't previously occupied by someone else, the arguments of folks that Israel is some exception that should cease to exist out of 'fairness' is disingenuous.......the British and Americans certainly have no business arguing that Israel doesn't have a right to exist because it was previously called 'Palestine' (actually, it was only called Palestine by the League of Nations after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, when it was put under British control......other than that no such nation of 'Palestine' ever existed.....it was a region).


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jan 9, 2009)

Ninjamom said:


> Lest we forget:
> 
> Attack on the USS Liberty in international waters during the 1967 Six Days War: 34 US dead and 170 wounded.


 Fog of war!  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/3/newsid_4678000/4678707.stm

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2007/02/horrific_friend.html

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2003/04/06/bombing_accident030406.html

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2007/08/24/uk_us_bomb_kills_3_british_soldiers/

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060813/friendly_fire_060904/20060904


Fratricide happens.....the Fog of war is real.....I never saw anything different in the Liberty incident than the US shooting down an Iranian airliner and killing 300 civilians by mistake.  It happens!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 9, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> why wernt the jews in possesion of thier land in the 1940's?
> 
> thats right, driven out by muslim agression
> 
> ...


 An important impediment for someone bringing up the race card is that Islam IS NOT a race.

By most reasonable estimates the percentage of the 1 Billion Muslims worldwide that are considered 'Fundamentalists', i.e. those who are the problem, is 10%.......that's 100 Million Fundamentalist Islamists who believe that Allah has divinely ordered Jihad on Dar al-Harb!


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

How nice you are all arguing over us. Deciding who's right, who's wrong, who'll get the land, who won't. Who are you to judge us?

The Jews never left Israel/Palestine you know, the whole lot didn't get up and wander off, many left yes but always there's been Jews in the Holy Land. did I say left? No, thats not correct even, they were driven out. And dear god didn't the world make us suffer for it. There's barely a country in the world that hasn't had a pogrom or rules that says Jews shall not or turned us away in our hour of need. We were given Isreal because of guilt were we? No, Israel is ours by right. We didn't drive Arabs out, in the beginning they sold their land, it was dry and useless, Jews made it green and productive, the Arabs wanted their land back. The Nazi idealogy took hold, kill Jews was the mantra. And kill Jews they did, all over Europe and in the Middle East where the Mufti had spread his poisonous message.

After the war, survivors from the camps needed to go somewhere, some went back to their 'home's to find in Poland for example the locals living in them, in some cases the locals killed them. All that was left was to go to somewhere that had been promised, what was called Palestine.

I will touch on the King David bombing and the Irgun terrorism. The British at that time were cracking down very hard on anyone trying to get into the country, can you imagine coming out of a concentration camp, travelling on foot through Europe looking for that last hope just to be put in another concentration camp in Cyprus? Jews had fought and died along side the Allied troops all through the war only to find their colleagues turning against them. The British took the weapons off the Jewish settlers already there and armed the Arabs, the Foreign Office policy was *and is* pro Arab not pro Jewish. Britain didn't want the Jews there.

Now imagine coming out of the concentration camps that you'd been put in as a child, you've watched mindless and unimaginable horrors and become totally dehumanised, you've lost every memeber of your family. The Jews from the Haganah have smuggled you into Palestine where you work for them but thats not enough for you, there's nothing normal about you anymore, violence, extreme violence is the only way to make others pay for everything so you go join the Irgun where the others are like you, you blow up the King David Hotel because the British are about to hang several of your comrades. Because there is a scrap of humanity left in someone the British are warned, BUT THEY IGNORE THE WARNING and many are killed.

The world Zionist organisations and the rest of Jewry condemned the violence, the Irgun and the Stern Gang were undoubtedly very violent and weren't supported by all but heres the thing, when you come down to it, as Jews you still blame us all. It was the Jews you cry as the cry has been for all these long years. The Jew did it. the Jews are killing the children, the Jews take our jobs, the Jews are responsible for everything wrong in our world. See the Jews kill the Arab children goes up the cry,see the Jews take our land, see how they kill us. And you do, you believe that we took their land instead of them selling it to us, you believe we stole their homes when the Mufti called them to leave them instead. You believe that Israel is wrong to defend itself. Because you believe Israel is wrong.

War is dirty, war is hell you can't make it clean and only have soldiers die, you can't have a one sided peace treaty, for years the Arabs have been firing rockets into Israel killing civilians, suicide bombers have been blowing themselves up and innocents too, many Arabs have died this way, the killing is indescriminate. Yet Israel is to blame. is this anti Semitism or are you believing that the Arabs are lesser people and don't know right from wrong therefore the Israelis must be the ones held accountable?


Israel has a right to exist, the right that everyone else takes for granted. Our people have been there since Biblical times. I know many people who have relatives there who have never left Israel in over two thousand years. It was never an Arab country, it was actually owned by the Turks not the Arabs and then the British took it over, it was never an Arab country.

My thanks and gratitude to all who support Israel, never think it's not appreciated.


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

Ninjamom, the fog of war is indeed very real. American troops have killed several British soldiers in Iraq. British soldiers have also had friendly fire incidents killing allied troops. It's not something to be brought up as an indication that the Americans for example are bad killing for our soldiers. The Israelis didn't kill the Americans on purpose no more than the Americans killed our soldiers on purpose.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 9, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> As to why there wasn't an Israel for a large number of centuries, well, on this one I don't think you quite have the historical 'ducks in a row', so to speak.
> 
> The origins of the Muslim faith post-date the destruction of a Jewish nation by about half a millenia; or as far as I know anyhow i.e. no guarantees. It was, I think, in fact the Romans who were the architects of the beginning of that dismantling.
> 
> ...


 Why there hasn't been a Jewish state, you are essentially correct.....

The Roman Empire, which ruled the region for centuries.......and transitioned to control by the Eastern Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire......which began it's decline due to internal and external pressures......and finally Mohammad arrived on the scene, and the Islamic hordes began their conquest of the entire middle east, north Africa, and even the Iberian Peninsula, all accomplished within a little over 100 years of Mohammad's death.

From the time of Mohammad until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the region was controlled by the Islamic world, except for brief periods of the Crusades.

After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the British took control of the region under a mandate of the League of Nations and arbitrarily drew up boundaries.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Ninjamom, the fog of war is indeed very real. American troops have killed several British soldiers in Iraq. British soldiers have also had friendly fire incidents killing allied troops. It's not something to be brought up as an indication that the Americans for example are bad killing for our soldiers. The Israelis didn't kill the Americans on purpose no more than the Americans killed our soldiers on purpose.


 I'm not sure why some folks see conspiracy on the part of Israel, in actions where, in similar circumstances, we acknowledge human error on our own behalf.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 9, 2009)

Those who claim there was a 'Nation of Palestine' are historically inaccurate.....the MOST accurate description of the situation between the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the founding of Israel is as a region without a nation......that was up for grabs by whoever could grab it.....and Israel grabbed it!  

There was no autonomous state between the conquest of the Roman Empire and the founding of the state of Israel by anyone in that region, jew, palestinian or otherwise......Palestine was a never a country, and the 'Palestinian people' are a fabrication to give legitimacy to the Islamic Arab world's desire to push Israel in to the sea!


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

This is drifting from the thread I know, but accusations have been made I'd like to refute.
http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac10.htm

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty.html

Note that the Jewish side in the first document is not as clean as it could be but when mistakes etc are made it's put down here honestly what happened. there's no cover up. The Irgun were the people with the dirty hands who did the jobs others didn't want to but then it's not for those not involved to judge.
I think the reason so many people feel free to judge is that many religious people, not Jews or Muslims, feel the 'Holy Land' is theirs.


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## elder999 (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> How nice you are all arguing over us. Deciding who's right, who's wrong, who'll get the land, who won't. Who are you to judge us?*snip!*
> My thanks and gratitude to all who support Israel, never think it's not appreciated.


 

Not arguing, not deciding, not judging-_just discussing._ Like I said, I try to avoid "the debate." I, too, have friends in Israel-better just not to discuss it; especially with those who refuse to see that suffering is universal, and hate diminishes us all, apparently.

On the other hand, over here in the U.S., we can't _help_* but* "support Israel" (not necessarily "support" *you*, Irene-you're _British_ :lol. In 2007, the U.S. paid Israel $40 million to aid refugees, $120 million in "economic assistance," amd increased military aid to Israel to about *$2.5 billion of our tax dollars.*

$2.5 billion dollars _given_ to Israel-not loaned, last year. The bulk of which Israel was *obligated* to turn around and spend on U.S. hardware-from U.S.corporations, though Israel is permitted to spend a portion on their own, mostly excellent, domestic defense products, and is able to contract some of those U.S. defense firms they buy hardware from to use Israeli parts in the manufacture of some of those items.

There, I think that's the big brush picture of all the convolutions and pemutations of the billions that _*we*_ spend in military aid to Israel. Okay, maybe not *all*, but the other details don't offer much...:lol:


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Not arguing, not deciding, not judging-_just discussing._ Like I said, I try to avoid "the debate." I, too, have friends in Israel-better just not to discuss it; even with those who refuse to see that suffering is universal, and hate diminishes us all, apparently.
> 
> On the other hand, over here in the U.S., we can't _help_* but* "support Israel" (not *you*, Irene-you're _British_). In 2007, the U.S. paid Israel $40 million to aid refugees, $120 million in "economic assistance," amd increased military aid to Israel to about *$2.5 billion of our tax dollars.*
> 
> $2.5 billion dollars given to Israel-not loaned, last year. The bulk of which Israel was *obligated* to turn around and spend on U.S. hardware.......


 
I have dual nationality, an Israeli and a British passport so guess I'm somewhat concerned about things!

Elder I know you weren't judging, it was aimed more generally. 
America has also given billions of dollars to the Palestinians over the years. $700million last year alone.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980DE0DE1538F933A05752C1A96E958260

http://www.humanitariandevelopmentprogram.org/hds/info/news/news248.htm

http://thinkingpoints.thengia.org/2008/11/09/aid-to-palestinians-to-total-700m-this-year.aspx


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## elder999 (Jan 9, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Given the duplicity of Grand Mufti of Palestine (Arafat's uncle) with the REAL Third Reich, and his pressing of Hitler to come up with a final solution, the whole thing is rather ironic.


 
I'd say that the LEHI group's (AKA, "the Stern gang) attempt to take part in WWII on the side of the REAL Third Reich against the British in the Middle East in exchange for promises of a Jewish homeland and emigration from Europe was equally, if not even more ironic.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Not arguing, not deciding, not judging-_just discussing._


 
This is an important thing for everyone to remember, just in case posters begin to feel a little hot under the collar and start typing ill-considered things.

When we bring people together to talk on a topic, it is inevitable that there will be differences of opinion but it is also quite likely that we can learn things from each other too - for example, I had forgotten some things about the history of the creation of modern Israel and this thread has reminded me of them :tup:.


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## Loki (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> How nice you are all arguing over us. Deciding who's right, who's wrong, who'll get the land, who won't. Who are you to judge us?
> 
> The Jews never left Israel/Palestine you know, the whole lot didn't get up and wander off, many left yes but always there's been Jews in the Holy Land. did I say left? No, thats not correct even, they were driven out. And dear god didn't the world make us suffer for it.[.. etc.]



Thanks for that. It's very much true that Israel fights daily for what everyone else seems to take for granted. And even then, we're criticized for it. Asa Kasher, a highly respected Israeli philosopher and one of the people behind the IDF's ethical code, "Ruach Zahal" (Spirit of the IDF), was interviewed on the radio today and he said eloquently what every Israeli knows: There's no choice. It's very easy to call for a ceasefire, but we all know that anyone else in our place would have long ago just what Twin Fist has suggested and turned Gaza into a parking lot.

Oh, and I couldn't understand what you were saying because you were just repeating the senseless things you said before and not actually adding new content to your arguments. And like you, I'm not trying to be insulting, just stating the facts.


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## elder999 (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> America has also given billions of dollars to the Palestinians over the years. $700million last year alone.


 
 That's be less  than a _third_ of what we spent on Israel._*None* of which was spent on *rockets*_, afaik. (Or food or plumbing, I'll bet...)


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> I'd say that the LEHI group's (AKA, "the Stern gang) attempt to take part in WWII on the side of the REAL Third Reich against the British in the Middle East in exchange for promises of a Jewish homeland and emigration from Europe was equally, if not even more ironic.


 
Wars make evil bedfellows of people. America and Britain sold weapons to Saddam and the Afghans who are now using it against us, we do what we think is right at the time just to have them turn round and bite us in the rear. History judges harshly too.


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> _*None* of which was spent on *rockets*_, afaik. (Or food or plumbing, I'll bet...)


 
Well you've got to ask with all that food and humantiarian aid America sent why are they in so much trouble now?


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

What you have to bear in mind too is that in Israel not everyone supports the action in Gaza but *they are allowed to say so.* The actions of the Israeli government are criticised by the opposition and if its gets so that the majority of the people don't like it there will be an election*.* Different views and criticism of the government , it's policies and of the IDF is allowed. Sadly this is not true for the Palestinians.


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## elder999 (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Wars make evil bedfellows of people. .


 
Are you saying, then, that when the Zionists tried to ally themselves with the Nazis, it was "evil  bedfellows," but when the Grand Mufti of Palestine did it it was "duplicitous?"


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Are you saying, then, that when the Zionists tried to ally themselves with the Nazis, it was "evil bedfellows," but when the Grand Mufti of Palestine did it it was "duplicitous?"


 
The 'Zionists' didn't, one group did. As with all Jewish/Isreali politics there is many views and many groups. Thats what I mean about tarring us all, well it was the Jews! Joseph Kennedy at the time he was American Ambassador to the court of St james also allied himself with the Nazis, admiring them greatly and saying Britain wouldn't last five minutes when the Germans invaded as they should. We don't blame all Americans for some having that point of view.


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## elder999 (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> The 'Zionists' didn't, one group did. As with all Jewish/Isreali politics there is many views and many groups. Thats what I mean about tarring us all, well it was the Jews! Joseph Kennedy at the time he was American Ambassador to the court of St james also allied himself with the Nazis, admiring them greatly and saying Britain wouldn't last five minutes when the Germans invaded as they should. We don't blame all Americans for some having that point of view.


 
I didn't blame all of the "Zionists," just one group....that happened to be...._Zionists._ I didn't blame all the Jews-I even named the group, who were, after all-Jews-and Zionists, _who tried to ally themselves with the *Nazis*.._...:lol: (Sorry, but given the intervening history, it *is* a bit ludicrous-I'm sure it made sense at the time....)

Joe Kennedy's admiration of Germany was his political downfall.By your logic, though, one simply can't imply any complicity on the part of the Palestinians for the actions of the Mufti of Jerusalem, either.


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Are you saying, then, that when *the Zionists* tried to ally themselves with the Nazis, it was "evil bedfellows," but when the Grand Mufti of Palestine did it it was "duplicitous?"


 
I didn't say it was duplicitious at all, I said that he did it. I didn't say either that getting into bed with the Nazis wasn't evil, I said people make decisions that are wrong in hindsight. They were desparate to save their people, perhaps they considered the cost of allying themselves with the Nazis worth the lives of their people. What would you do to save your loved ones?
The Mufti went to the Nazis as an admirer of Hitler and his idealogy, if anyone was duplicitous it would have been the Nazis, they had no more love for Arabs than they had for Jews.


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## elder999 (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> What would you do to save your loved ones?
> .


 
Sell U.S. proprietary and _export-protected_ aviation technology to the People's Republic of China, apparently.....

Spend half of their intelligence assets spying on their "_ally_"  the  U.S., apparently....

Spend a great deal of resources on industrial espionage against the U.S. defense industry, apparently.....

Target and penetrate over 125 U.S. defense related facilities, including the offices and homes of U.S. personnel in the _first six months of 2001 alone_, apparently....

I could go on, and on, and on, and on......pretty good thanks for over $2 billion a year in U.S. tax-dollars, ain't it? :lol:


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Sell U.S. proprietary and _export-protected_ aviation technology to the People's Republic of China, apparently.....
> 
> Spend half of their intelligence assets spying on their "_ally_"  the U.S., apparently....
> 
> ...


 
Could be worse. You know of course that the US also spies on the UK,  as we do on you. We also spend a good deal of time, effort and money on industrial and military espionage against each other. A little while ago we caught a US serviceman alledgedly trying to get into a British MOD establishment. All hushed up of course you just don't spy on your allies do we? 
It's the Great Game, all countries play it, Britain has been since Elizabethan times, it's not an Israeli thing particularly. Watch for the French btw lol!


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## elder999 (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Could be worse. You know of course that the US also spies on the UK, as we do on you. We also spend a good deal of time, effort and money on industrial and military espionage against each other. A little while ago we caught a US serviceman alledgedly trying to get into a British MOD establishment. All hushed up of course you just don't spy on your allies do we?
> It's the Great Game, all countries play it, Britain has been since Elizabethan times, it's not an Israeli thing particularly. Watch for the French btw lol!


 
I suppose that makes it _ok_ then. 

Seriously, the problem isn't espionage, or even industrial espionage, as much as it is Israel's willingness to do business with entities that aren't in U.S. interests, like the sale of technology-_our_ technology-to Red China, when that sale is strictly outide the contracted agreements. 

Of course, the espionage part _sucks,_ but as you say, it's almost to be expected.


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> I suppose that makes it _ok_ then.
> 
> Seriously, the problem isn't espionage, or even industrial espionage, as much as it is Israel's willingness to do business with entities that aren't in U.S. interests, like the sale of technology-_our_ technology-to Red China, when that sale is strictly outide the contracted agreements.
> 
> Of course, the espionage part _sucks,_ but as you say, it's almost to be expected.


 

Well America does things that are against the British interests ( and we're supposed to be 'cousins', family not just another country that America helps), against Isreals interests, and a lot of the time against America's interests. You don't buy countries, you can help them, be allies with them but you can't buy them. America has a problem with China because it's communist, the rest of the world doesn't always see it the same way as America which I know annoys Americans. Are you annoyed that Israel is allegedly selling the technology or that America isn't? 
America is Saudi Arabia's biggest trading partner, do you imagine they aren't looking at your technology and who do you think they are selling onto? yep China and Syria and Iran. 
In January last year Bush gave Saudi 20 billion dollars worth of arms, now where do you think thats been traded to? 
In a West Point study it was found that 40% of the terrorists who attack Americans in Iraq were from Saudi. where does Bin Laden come from? Saudi.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N19629188.htm

Incidentally America is the worlds biggest arms dealer, selling arms to basically any country that wants it, a lot of them very undemocratic. 

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/wawjune2005.html


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## elder999 (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> . Are you annoyed that Israel is allegedly selling the technology or that America isn't?


 
Well. America *is* selling it-to _Israel_, oftne under the implicit condition that they _not sell it to people like the Chinese_. By doing so, they've _broken an agreement with us._



Tez3 said:


> .America is Saudi Arabia's biggest trading partner, do you imagine they aren't looking at your technology and who do you think they are selling onto? yep China and Syria and Iran.


 
You seriously overestimate the Saudi's capabilities in this regard.



Tez3 said:


> .
> In January last year Bush gave Saudi 20 billion dollars worth of arms, now where do you think thats been traded to?


 
Since it was arms in that were pretty much non-transferrable, i.e., land based weapons systems and aircraft, they haven't traded them to anyone. 

IN any case, it's not like I'm at all happy with _Mr. Bush_, who did that deal against the wishes of Congress *and* Israel, for doing so.

Pretty sure we were talking about _Israel,_ not our rather ridiculous relationship with the House of Saud.





Tez3 said:


> . Incidentally America is the worlds biggest arms dealer, selling arms to basically any country that wants it, a lot of them very undemocratic.
> 
> http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/wawjune2005.html


 
Don't feel very good about that, but I feel even worse about the corporate welfare disguised as military aid to a country whose chief "U.S. interest" seems to be the misery of their neighbors, for which we get spied upon and have our secrets sold in return. :lol:


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Well. America *is* selling it-to _Israel_, oftne under the implicit condition that they _not sell it to people like the Chinese_. By doing so, they've _broken an agreement with us._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Ere, are we the only two chatting here lol? 

Well you could look after your secrets better! Americans sell your secrets too which is actually worse because thats treason.

My point is that Isreal isn't the only country that America 'trades' with but seems to be the only one that you expect to have hughly high moral standards. Saudi is a favoured trading partner of America and helps sustain terrorists yet nought is said.

America spies on Israel and nicks their technology!
http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2001/050901a.htm

Hell, the CIA spies on every country and interferes in it's internal political situations.
http://www.serendipity.li/cia/cia_oz/cia_oz1.htm




All you will ever get out of any country at the most is enlightened self interest. Each country will look after it's own interests in the end. Israel, America, UK are no different. Israel doesn't want it's neighbours at war with it, it doesn't want the misery of war, it just wants to be left alone.


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## CanuckMA (Jan 9, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Those who claim there was a 'Nation of Palestine' are historically inaccurate.....the MOST accurate description of the situation between the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the founding of Israel is as a region without a nation......that was up for grabs by whoever could grab it.....and Israel grabbed it!
> 
> There was no autonomous state between the conquest of the Roman Empire and the founding of the state of Israel by anyone in that region, jew, palestinian or otherwise......Palestine was a never a country, and the 'Palestinian people' are a fabrication to give legitimacy to the Islamic Arab world's desire to push Israel in to the sea!


 
Prior to 1948, Palestinian refered to Jews living in the British Mandate. The Arabs we Arabs, most called themselves Syrians.

Between 1948 and the early 60s, there was not much said about Palestinians, that is until the Egyptian Arafat needed a cause for his terrorism.


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

CanuckMA said:


> Prior to 1948, Palestinian refered to Jews living in the British Mandate. The Arabs we Arabs, most called themselves Syrians.
> 
> Between 1948 and the early 60s, there was not much said about Palestinians, that is until the Egyptian Arafat needed a cause for his terrorism.


 
Absolutely!


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## Ninjamom (Jan 9, 2009)

I agree that there was no 'nation' of Palestine.  However, we can all agree that there were people living on the land in homes, with farms, with jobs, and with property.

Regardless of what 'they' were called, I think the real point to consider is what to *do* with them.  Since 1948, the *land* of Gaza has not been formally annexed into Israel, nor has it been granted status as an independent state.  Meanwhile, since 1948, the *people* living in Gaza have not been absorbed into Israel as citizens, nor have they been given independence.  Unfortunately, this continued state of 'limbo' exacerbates the situation.

To grant full citizenship to all the occupants of Gaza and Samaria (the 'West Bank') would be demographic suicide for the democratic/representative state of Israel.  To force the original residents of Gaza out on a 'Trail of Tears' into other countries would be demographic genocide (That's the UN definition - the forced expulsion or demise of a people-group).  The worst course of action would be to sit and do nothing, letting the situation simmer for another 60 years with Gazans given neither rights, nor responsibilities, nor hope.

Israel has no choice but to defend itself against the continued attacks of Hamas.  Maybe by destroying Hamas, Israel will establish enough security in the area to allow more rational heads in Gaza to work honestly towards a solution.  A rational solution that doesn't entail genocide.



sgtmac_46 said:


> I'm not sure why some folks see conspiracy on the part of Israel, in actions where, in similar circumstances, we acknowledge human error on our own behalf.


Possibly because when the US has a 'friendly fire' incident, we don't follow up by strafing life rafts.


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## CoryKS (Jan 9, 2009)

Ninjamom said:


> To force the original residents of Gaza out on a 'Trail of Tears' into other countries would be demographic genocide (That's the UN definition - the forced expulsion or demise of a people-group).


 
Please explain how the residents of Gaza differ from the residents of Egypt or Jordan.  What makes them distinct and separate?  How would it be "demographic genocide" to assimilate these Arabs into the Arab populations of the aforementioned countries?


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

That is a very serious accusation to make without proof to back it up.
American investigations into the attack on the Liberty.

My original piece of copy didn't come out well so I've put the link to the page instead.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty2.html

The captains report said nothing about strafing of the lifeboats which were empty anyway, the ship not having been abandoned. 'Witnesses' are said to have seen the Israelis gunboats fire at the lifeboats, witnesses have also said the Israelis were fired upon first by the Liberty.
Only a couple of days before the Isreali planes had been involved in another friendly fire incident where some of their own troops were killed, friendly fire is a sad tragic fact of war, to suggest that the Israelis fired on lifeboats without proof is unnecessary


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

Jews in Gaza


*The Jewish community of Gaza City* was expelled (lynching was prevented by the Arab A-Shawa family), during the 1929 anti-Jewish _Intifada_, which exterminated the Jewish community of Hebron. Rather than punishing the lynching mob, the British Police evacuated the Gaza Jewish community. In 1885, the Jewish leadership decided to resettle three historical Jewish locations  Lydda, Nablus and Gaza. The largest nucleus (30 families) was referred to Gaza. A Jewish day school and a Jewish-managed bank were established in 1910 and 1914 respectively. Upon the eruption of WWI, the Ottomans deported the Jewish community. Jews returned to Gaza in 1919, operating its windmill and hotel and reopening the Shimshon (Samson) Jewish day school. They left for a few months due to the 1921 _Intifada_. Former President Ben-Zvi and the Jewish daily *Halevanon* wrote about the 1870-72 and 1882/3 Jewish presence in Gaza, following the 1799-1820 flight of its Jews, during the Napoleon siege, which devastated the city. The 1492-1497 Jewish expulsion from Spain/Portugal directed some families to Gaza, headed by the seven Castil brothers. The flow of Jews to Gaza was bolstered upon the Ottoman takeover in 1517 (116 Jewish families in 1549), producing prominent Jewish clergies, such as Chief Rabbi Israel Najarah (1620), the composer of _Yah Ribon Olam_ hymn, who was buried in Gaza, succeeded by his son, Rabbi Moshe Najarah. The 17th century prosperity of the Gaza Jewish community was aborted in 1660, when eerie Shabtai Zvi was declared at the Gaza synagogue as the supposed Messiah.  


*Renowned travelers* documented Jewish presence in Gaza. In 1384, Georgio Gucci complimented Gaza Jews for producing excellent wine. In 1395, De Angelir noted that the Jews of Gaza had to wear a yellow cloth. In 1481, Meshulam from Voltera noted that Gaza Jews were entrenched in Gaza, since they owned substantial real estate, including vineyards and controlled the wine industry. He was impressed with the hilltop synagogue, which was destroyed in 1831 by Egypt's Ibrahim Pasha (the Gaza hilltop neighborhood is currently known as Khart Al Yahood, the Jewish Neighborhood). In 1488, Ovadia from Bartenura described the wholesome Jewish community of Gaza. In 1507, Martin Baumgarten noted the presence of Jews in Gaza and Hebron.  

*Gaza substituted Jerusalem* (135-600 AD)  just like Tiberias  when Rome prohibited Jewish pilgrimage to Jerusalem. The Gaza Jewish community dates back to biblical time, including  as noted in Cloakroom #164  the era of the Patriarchs, Judges and Kings. Jonathan the Maccabee took over Gaza in 145 BC and Shimon the Maccabee settled it, King Alexander Yanai-Janeus renewed the Jewish community in 96 BC, which was expelled by Rome in 61 BC. Romes Constantinus The Great failed in his attempt to convert the 4th century AD Jewish community to Christianity. Remnants of ancient synagogues were discovered in Gaza, most notably a mosaic floor next to the Gaza pier, dating back to 508/9 AD.  

*Gaza has always been a critical security asset*, constituting an invasion route, beginning with Egypts Mentuhotep 2nd (2004-1992 BC), Sennacherib (681-704 BC), Ptolemi 1st  (284-304 BC), Alexander the Great, Napoleon, General Alenby and the 1948 Egyptian military. The Gaza population has recently been (at least since early 20th century) a terrorist safe haven. Control of Gaza (until 1993) constrained Palestinian terrorism, as far as incitement, recruitment, training, operational maneuverability, manufacturing and smuggling of explosives, missiles, etc. Disengagement from Gaza has dramatically exacerbated terrorism.  
The aforementioned data was researched by Haggai Huberman <humberman@zahav.net.il>, an expert on the Gaza Jewish community


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

*Who Were the 1948 Refugees?*

*by Yoram Ettinger 
yoramtex@netvision.net.il*​February 4, 2001​
630,000 Palestinian, and 820,000 Jewish, refugees were produced by the 1948 war, which was launched by Palestinians, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon against Israel. 

The Jewish refugees - from Muslim countries - were absorbed (590,000 in Israel), as were millions of European refugees in the aftermath of WWII. In contrast, Palestinian refugees have been confined to camps, by Arab and PLO leaders, fomenting terrorism. None of the financial aid received by the PLO, from the US and other countries, has been directed at the refugee camps! 

810,000 Arabs resided in Israel (defined by the 1949 ceasefire lines) on November 30, 1947. At the end of the war there were 168,000 Arabs in Israel (including 14,000 Bedouins, down from 66,000 before the war). Considering the 1%-2% war fatalities (Israel lost 1% of its people!), the 52,000 displaced Bedouins, who joined tribes in Jordan and Sinai, the Palestinians who rejoined their families in Lebanon and Syria (please see below) and the wealthy Palestinians who were resettled in the Mideast and in other parts of the globe, the actual number of Palestinians in refugee camps, in 1949, was no more than 550,000! 

Many Palestinians are descendants of Egyptian, Sudanese, Syrian and Lebanese migrants, who settled in the current boundaries of Israel during 1830-1945. Migration by Arab citizens of the Ottoman Empire did not require any permit until WWI. Migrant workers were imported by the Ottoman and (since 1919) by the British authorities for infrastructure projects: The port of Haifa, the Haifa-Qantara, Haifa-Edrei, Haifa-Nablus and Jerusalem-Jaffa railroads, military installations, roads, quarries, reclamation of wetlands, etc. Illegal Arab laborers were also attracted by the relative boom, stimulated by Jewish immigration, which expanded labor-intensive enterprises (construction, agriculture, etc.). 

The (1831-1840) conquest, by Egypt's Mohammed Ali, was solidified by thousands of Egyptians settling empty spaces between Gaza and Tul-Karem up to the Hula Valley. They followed in the footsteps of Egyptian draft dodgers, who fled Egypt before 1831. The British traveler, H.B. Tristram, identified Egyptian migrants in the Beit-Shean Valley, Acre, Hadera, Netanya and Jaffa. The British Palestine Exploration Fund indicated that Egyptian neighborhoods proliferated in and around Jaffa: Saknet el-Mussariya, Abu Kebir, Abu Derwish, Sumeil, Sheikh Muwanis, Salame', Fejja, etc. Many of those who fled in 1948 attempted to reunite with their families of origin. 

"30,000-36,000 Syrian migrants (Huranis) entered Palestine during the last few months alone" (*La Syrie* daily, August 12, 1934). Syrian rulers have always considered the area as a southern province of Greater Syria. Az-ed-Din el-Qassam, the role-model of Hamas terrorism, who terrorized Jews in British Mandate Palestine, was a Syrian, as were Said el-A'az, a leader of the 1936-38 anti-Jewish pogroms and Kaukji, the commander-in-chief of the Arab mercenaries terrorizing Jews in the thirties and forties. 

Tristram, and other travelers, identified over 15 Arab nationalities who settled in Jaffa. Libyan migrants and refugees settled in Gedera, south of Tel Aviv. Algerian refugees (Mugrabis), escaping the French conquest of 1830, settled in Safed, Tiberias and other parts of the Galilee. Their leader, Abd el-Kader el-Hasseini, headquartered in Syria! Circassian refugees, fleeing Russian oppression (1878), Moslems from Bosnia, Turkomans, Yemenite Arabs (1908) and Bedouin tribes from Jordan (escaping wars and famine) diversified Arab demography there. The aforementioned data are contained in the book *The Claim Of Dispossession* (Arieh Avneri, 1982) and in *From Time Immemorial *(Joan Peters, Harper, 1984). 

Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League: In 1948, Azzam Pasha, the former Secretary General, "assured Arabs that the occupation of Palestine, including Tel Aviv, would be as simple as a military promenade...Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property, and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states." (*Al-Hoda* Lebanese daily, New York, June 8, 1951).


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 9, 2009)

I posted this thread regarding the attack on the USS Liberty.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71623


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> I posted this thread regarding the attack on the USS Liberty.
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71623


 
I saw that, good idea as the argument over that detracts from this one.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> That is a very serious accusation to make without proof to back it up.
> American investigations into the attack on the Liberty.


 

American investigations also show that Kennedy was killed by a lone gunman, there were never any American efforts to kill Fidel Castro, the Roswell crash in 1948 was a "weather balloon" :lol:, and that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction......

.....further investigation reveals that several high-level U.S. military, intelligence and State Department personnel, as well as many of the survivors of the U.S.S. Liberty believe(d) that the attack was deliberate.

Of course, that's all I am going to say about this topic. There's another thread on the Liberty  that I assume explores these issues, here.

"Fog of War" indeed. 

Back on topic, though:



> UN rights chief wants investigation of Gaza abuses
> 
> GENEVA &#8211; The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights called Friday for an independent war crimes investigation in Gaza after reports that Israeli forces shelled a house full of Palestinian civilians, killing 30 people.
> Navi Pillay told an emergency meeting of the U.N. Human Rights Council that the harm to Israeli civilians caused by Hamas rockets was unacceptable, but did not excuse any abuses carried out by Israeli forces in response.
> Pillay went further in an interview with the British Broadcasting Corp., saying an incident in Gaza City this week* "appears to have all the elements of war crimes."*


 
As seen:here.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> American investigations also show that Kennedy was killed by a lone gunman, there were never any American efforts to kill Fidel Castro, the Roswell crash in 1948 was a "weather balloon" :lol:, and that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction......
> 
> .....further investigation reveals that several high-level U.S. military, intelligence and State Department personnel, as well as many of the survivors of the U.S.S. Liberty believe(d) that the attack was deliberate.
> 
> ...


 

Ah but you as usual post more than a bald statement of blame  You give something to get the teeth into and argue for or against!


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090109/ap_on_re_mi_ea/un_un_gaza_rights

The UN says it want an investigation but states that Israel is behaving unacceptably before the investigation has started or made conclusions. Of course if Israeli troops have behaved in a way thats inhumane they should be puncished and I think you'll find that that will happen. As I said before Israel is a free country and many Jews will speak out ( and not be killed or kneecapped for it) against any war crimes.


----------



## Ninjamom (Jan 9, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> Please explain how the residents of Gaza differ from the residents of Egypt or Jordan.


The residents of Gaza live in Gaza. The residents of Egypt and Jordan live in Egypt and Jordan. 

It is immoral to force the Gazans out of their homes just because you don't want them there. It is no different than "honorable" men in times past forcing innocent Cherokee men, women, and children on a Trail of Tears halfway across the country (hence my previous comparison).



> How would it be "demographic genocide" to assimilate these Arabs into the Arab populations of the aforementioned countries?


Oh, excuse me. My mistake. It's not genocide. It would be ethnic cleansing. Still immoral, still a crime against humanity, but at least we all can rest assured we have our terms straight.


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## elder999 (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> In a West Point study it was found that 40% of the terrorists who attack Americans in Iraq were from Saudi. where does Bin Laden come from? Saudi.


 
Interestingly, I posted something related and relevant, here



elder999 said:


> *The first question you should ask about your enemy is why he is your enemy in the first place.*
> _&#8212;Joseph Sobran, writing about Sept. 11th just hours after it happened._
> 
> 
> ...


 
(Geez, Irene, don't you _sleep?_ :lol: )


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

So the IDF strafes lifeboats and now takes part in ethnic cleansing?

The Arabs didn't think twice forcing the Jews who lived in Gaza out, the didn't think twice about stating that all Jews would be driven into the sea. I've already posted who the refugees in Gaza are. The Israelis at this moment aren't driving anyone out of their homes, the are defending themselves from the rocket attacks that are killing Israeli civilians so who exactly is trying to ethinically cleanse who here? 
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism...f+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism...tacks+in+Israel+Since+the+DOP+-S.htm?ABCDEFGH


----------



## CoryKS (Jan 9, 2009)

Ninjamom said:


> The residents of Gaza live in Gaza. The residents of Egypt and Jordan live in Egypt and Jordan.


 
*facepalm* well, you fulfilled the letter of the request, if not the spirit.



Ninjamom said:


> Oh, excuse me. My mistake. It's not genocide. It would be ethnic cleansing. Still immoral, still a crime against humanity, but at least we all can rest assured we have our terms straight.


 
Well, yes, thank you, please use the correct term.  To do otherwise is not only a gross insult to actual genocide victims, but it opens you to the risk of appearing illiterate and foolish.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

Good post Elder, the strange thing is that the countries of Kuwait, Saudi Arabis etc were all made countries by the British and Americans in the first place after the First World War. The royal families weren't royal as such but were leaders friendly to the Allies who put them on their thrones.
We have Kuwaiti and Saudi soldiers training here sometimes, this causes problems for myself and my female colleagues as they spit at us if we happen to be doing access control duties when they come into camp. We are female and we aren't Muslims. The hate if there is any goes both ways.


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Interestingly, I posted something related and relavent, here
> 
> 
> 
> (*Geez, Irene, don't you sleep?* :lol: )


 
It's not even nine o'clock at night my time lol!

I've been doing all my housework which I hate with a passion so everytime I do something like the ironing, washing up etc I reward myself with a little sit down with MT! keeps my brain going while doing those awful mundane things, I mean how stimulated can you get mopping the kitchen floor?


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## Ninjamom (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> That is a very serious accusation to make without proof to back it up.


That is why I would never make such an accusation without facts to back it up.  The incident in question took place at sea.  The 'witnesses' could only be from two sources - those physically on the Israeli gunboat and those physically on the American antenna farm.  According to the testimony of sailors on the USS Liberty, the Israeli gunboat opened fire on the liferafts.  The liferafts were lowered into the water because the command had been given to abandon ship.

Firing on liferafts in and of itself is a warcrime, whether the gunners attacked what they thought was an Egyptian ship, or an American ship, and whether the initial attack was deliberate or not.  

For more information and quotes to back this up, please refer to Ennes, "Assault on the Liberty", or the Chicago Tribune article I referenced before.  A clip of LTCDR (ret) Ennes (USS Liberty survivor and author) being interviewed regarding the incident is available on YouTube here.

I wanted to respond to your comment here.  I'll post all further comments regarding this incident to the other thread.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

Ninjamom said:


> That is why I would never make such an accusation without facts to back it up. The incident in question took place at sea. The 'witnesses' could only be from two sources - those physically on the Israeli gunboat and those physically on the American antenna farm. According to the testimony of sailors on the USS Liberty, the Israeli gunboat opened fire on the liferafts. The liferafts were lowered into the water because the command had been given to abandon ship.
> 
> Firing on liferafts in and of itself is a warcrime, whether the gunners attacked what they thought was an Egyptian ship, or an American ship, and whether the initial attack was deliberate or not.
> 
> ...


 
However the captain made no mention of any firing on life rafts. Odd that, you would have thought if it happened he'd be as mad as hell. 
You posted no citations up with your post, all you said was that the lifeboats had been strafed.


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## Ninjamom (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> So the IDF strafes lifeboats and now takes part in ethnic cleansing?
> 
> The Arabs didn't think twice forcing the Jews who lived in Gaza out, the didn't think twice about stating that all Jews would be driven into the sea. I've already posted who the refugees in Gaza are. The Israelis at this moment aren't driving anyone out of their homes, the are defending themselves from the rocket attacks that are killing Israeli civilians so who exactly is trying to ethinically cleanse who here?


Several conversations happening in this thread at once.

*Yes*, the IDF strafed the lifeboats of the USS Liberty.  
*No*, the IDF is not currently committing ethnic cleansing against the Gazans - they would only be guilty of such a thing if they acted in accordance with the suggestions of some on this board to turn all Gazans into 'good Palestinians' .  Such suggestions must always be rejected to maintain the moral distinction between Israel and Hamas.
*Yes*, Hamas is the badguy. Go get 'em, Israel.
*No*, not every Palestinian is an evil murderer just becaused they live in Gaza. Neither are 'the Arabs' one amorphous mass.
*Yes*, Israel has a right to act in self defense.
*No*, no nation in this discussion (the US, UK, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, or Isreal) gets a 'free pass' - we all have to deal honestly and openly with the skeletons in our closets.


----------



## Ninjamom (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> However the captain made no mention of any firing on life rafts. Odd that, you would have thought if it happened he'd be as mad as hell.
> You posted no citations up with your post, all you said was that the lifeboats had been strafed.


The captian was severely injured in the assault, suffering from loss of blood and shock. He was not in actual command of the ship for the bulk of the attack. Remember that this was not a short firing incident - it was a prolonged attack with multiple aerial bombing and strafing runs, multiple torpedo firings, and machine gun fire from the surface vessel.

The quotes regarding the strafing are in both the book and the article that I referenced, as well as on the YouTube video interview. Anyone desiring to ascertain the facts of the matter can read and/or view these materials for themselves.

ADDED ON EDIT: Apologies - I said I would move my discussion of this topic to the other thread.  For follow-up discussion, please see the other thread.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

Ninjamom said:


> Several conversations happening in this thread at once.
> 
> *Yes*, the IDF strafed the lifeboats of the USS Liberty.
> *No*, the IDF is not currently committing ethnic cleansing against the Gazans - they would only be guilty of such a thing if they acted in accordance with the suggestions of some on this board to turn all Gazans into 'good Palestinians' . Such suggestions must always be rejected to maintain the moral distinction between Israel and Hamas.
> ...


 
No, the IDF didn't strafe the lifeboats, other US witnesses don't confirm the IDF fired upon the lifeboats, some US witnesses also say that they opened fired on the IDF..... Countless US inquiries have proved it was an accident, no mention of strafing until long after the event. 
I have taken statements of many many witnesses after traumatic events, the one thing they all have in common is that at any one event all the witness statements are different.Ask anyone who has been under fire exactly what happened and they will not be able to give you the whole picture. If the lifeboats had been fired on all the remaining crew who were able to see would have said so not just one or two, they may well have mistaken their own firing as the IDF firing on them, who knows. A couple of people assert that the IDF opened fire on the lifeboats, another asserts that they opened fire on the IDF boat thinking it was coming in for the kill although by then the mistake had been realised and the IDF and the Americans were sending choppers in to rescue the sailors.


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

Ninjamom said:


> The captian was severely injured in the assault, suffering from loss of blood and shock. He was not in actual command of the ship for the bulk of the attack. Remember that this was not a short firing incident - it was a prolonged attack with multiple aerial bombing and strafing runs, multiple torpedo firings, and machine gun fire from the surface vessel.
> 
> The quotes regarding the strafing are in both the book and the article that I referenced, as well as on the YouTube video interview. Anyone desiring to ascertain the facts of the matter can read and/or view these materials for themselves.
> 
> ADDED ON EDIT: Apologies - I said I would move my discussion of this topic to the other thread. For follow-up discussion, please see the other thread.


 

You will believe what you chose to believe. I believe someone who was there not others books and articles. 
The Israelis paid considerably damages to the families of the dead and to the injuried. some war crime?

From Wikipedia
The _Liberty's_ captain, Commander McGonagle, was wounded during the air attack, *but he remained in command on the ship's bridge.* 


_Israeli ships' actions after the torpedo hit:_ Some of the crewmembers claim that after the _Liberty_ had been torpedoed, Israeli boats circled the ship firing 0.50 caliber machine guns at descended (unmanned) life rafts and sailors on board the ship. Israelis claim they recognized the ship as American immediately after it was hit and ceased fire. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

You pays your money and you take your choice. You can't sit in a cosy armchair and decide one is truer than the other, thats why it's called the fog of war.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 9, 2009)

Chaps, there is another thread that deals with this issue that was started explicitly for the purpose of pursuing it.

Please cease de-railing this thread with posts, however content rich they may be, that are not pertinent to the OP.

I shall look into the practicalities of getting the tangential posts split off but it may cause too much of a tangle to do.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 9, 2009)

And, back on topic, in keeping with the whole, _clean house and eliminate action items before the U.S. crowns their new, temporary "King of the World" for four years_ insanity:



> Israel and Hamas ignore UN call for cease-fire
> 
> GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip  Israeli jets and ground troops hammered at Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip and Islamic militants fired barrages of rockets at southern Israeli cities Friday, ignoring a U.N. resolution calling for an immediate cease-fire after two weeks of combat.
> 
> ...


 
Seen here, there, and _everywhere_......


----------



## elder999 (Jan 9, 2009)

and, lest we forget in the midst of all the "yes they did," "no they didn't," "did*so*, did*not*" blather:



> In Gaza's rubble-strewn streets, there was concern of a worsening humanitarian situation on the second day of a U.N. suspension of aid deliveries and the Red Cross restricted its medical operations to Gaza City, where it has a team assisting surgeons at the main Shifa hospital.
> The decisions by the two organizations came after they said Israeli fire killed two contractors delivering aid for the U.N. and injured the driver of a Red Cross truck in separate incidents Thursday.
> 
> With just over half the territory's population of 1.4 million relying on the U.N. for food, U.N. officials said Friday that they planned to resume aid operations "as soon as practical," based on Israeli assurances that aid workers would be better protected.
> Gaza's people have become increasingly desperate for food, water, fuel and medical assistance. One million people are without electricity and 750,000 are without running water, according to the U.N. Palestinian refugee agency.


 
and this, of course, must be due to the infamous "Fog of War," because no civilized person, certainly no Israeli, let alone Jew, would do such a thing-one might expect it from Arabs, of course  :



> According to testimonies gathered by the UN, Israeli soldiers evacuated about 110 Palestinians to a single-storey house in Zeitoun. The evacuees were instructed to stay indoors for their safety but 24 hours later the Israeli army shelled the house. About half the Palestinians sheltering in the house were children, OCHA said. The report also complains that the Israeli Defence Force prevented medical teams from entering the area to evacuate the wounded


 
Oh, and knowing how some might find the Guardian reason enough to doubt the veracity of the story, here's the same story from AP.......of course, it's really "the same story," becuase Israel isn't really letting the press into Gaza.......


----------



## shesulsa (Jan 9, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> Well, yes, thank you, please use the correct term.  To do otherwise is not only a gross insult to actual genocide victims, but it opens you to the risk of appearing illiterate and foolish.



I'm sorry ... just for clarity, you _are_ being feceitious, aren't you?


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> and, lest we forget in the midst of all the "yes they did," "no they didn't," "did*so*, did*not*" blather:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Love the Guardian comment! Officers messes in the British Army aren't allowed the Guardian!

You know of course that the Israeli soldiers could be Muslims not Jews? they could also be Christians.
http://www.allbusiness.com/middle-east/israel/294992-1.html

That doesn't excuse an action like this though if true but does give food for thought.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You know of course that the Israeli soldiers could be Muslims not Jews? they could also be Christians..


 
Yes, I am aware of that. My familiarity with members of Israel's government and military have been a bone of contention between me and *my* government in the past. :lol:


----------



## CoryKS (Jan 9, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> I'm sorry ... just for clarity, you _are_ being feceitious, aren't you?


 
To an extent.  I think the word genocide has been terribly abused of late.  Hyperbole tends to devalue useful words with real meanings.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Yes, I am aware of that. My familiarity with members of Israel's government and military have been a bone of contention between me and *my* government in the past. :lol:


 

I'm fairly lucky that way. My parents had been in the IDF, my father first having served in the British army (in the Gordons) then my brother went into the IDF (Navy) but the British were quite happy for me to go into the RAF. Probably a lot happier than taking in at the time people from Eire who were legally entitled to join the British forces for various reasons but who joined up with the sole purpose of learning everything they could as they were actually IRA sympathisers who would go on to become 'fulltime' terrorists.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jan 10, 2009)

CanuckMA said:


> Prior to 1948, Palestinian refered to Jews living in the British Mandate. The Arabs we Arabs, most called themselves Syrians.
> 
> Between 1948 and the early 60s, there was not much said about Palestinians, that is until the Egyptian Arafat needed a cause for his terrorism.



You need to remember there were TWO more 'interest' groups that found fabricating a 'Palestinian cause' useful......the Soviet Union, who saw it as a counter-nationalist movement to oppose Israel, which by that point had aligned with the US, and the Islamic Brotherhood movement in Egypt, which evolved in to many terrorist organizations we know of today, and which was offended by a non-Islamic government in the middle east, and aspired to a new Pan-Arab Islamic Super-State!


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jan 10, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Not arguing, not deciding, not judging-_just discussing._ Like I said, I try to avoid "the debate." I, too, have friends in Israel-better just not to discuss it; especially with those who refuse to see that suffering is universal, and hate diminishes us all, apparently.
> 
> On the other hand, over here in the U.S., we can't _help_* but* "support Israel" (not necessarily "support" *you*, Irene-you're _British_ :lol. In 2007, the U.S. paid Israel $40 million to aid refugees, $120 million in "economic assistance," amd increased military aid to Israel to about *$2.5 billion of our tax dollars.*
> 
> ...



And we give $1.7 BILLION dollars to Egypt during the same time period, several hundred million for military assistance.......the notion of a unique relationship with Israel is mostly smoke and mirrors.  We do have a tendency to buy our friends, and keep them paid......but that's not restricted to Israel. 

So, again, why the fixation on ISRAEL?


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jan 10, 2009)

elder999 said:


> I'd say that the LEHI group's (AKA, "the Stern gang) attempt to take part in WWII on the side of the REAL Third Reich against the British in the Middle East in exchange for promises of a Jewish homeland and emigration from Europe was equally, if not even more ironic.


 the 'REAL Third Reich' what is the REAL third reich?!

As opposed to the 'fake' third Reich that the Grand Mufti of Palestine recruited Muslim SS UNITS FOR?! 

  I think your memory of history is mistaken, or distorted on the matter.....allow me....



> "The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. ... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz." -Dieter Wisliceny


----------



## elder999 (Jan 10, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> the 'REAL Third Reich' what is the REAL third reich?!
> 
> As opposed to the 'fake' third Reich that the Grand Mufti of Palestine recruited Muslim SS UNITS FOR?!
> 
> I think your memory of history is mistaken, or distorted on the matter.....allow me....


 
Dude, *you* _started it._ I think your memory of _*yesterday*_ is mistaken, or distorted on the matter...:lfao:....allow me:



sgtmac_46 said:


> Given the duplicity of Grand Mufti of Palestine (Arafat's uncle) with the REAL Third Reich, and his pressing of Hitler to come up with a final solution, the whole thing is rather ironic.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2009)

I think the fixation on Israel is that many people feel they 'own' it somehow. Mostly it seems to be Christians who have a sense that because of familarity through the Bible and Christian teaching. Mostly this shows in welcome support for Israel but often means that Israel is somehow held up to higher standards than others. The 'Holy Land' shouldn't be inhabited by people with all too human failings. I beleive it has a lot to do as well with the belief that the Israelis will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem which is supposed to happen before the 'end of the world' so many are looking forward too. 
http://www.newgateministries.com/jerusalemchronicles/rebuilt-temple.html

I think too that the perception too is that Arabs ( whether Muslim or not) are somehow not quite to be trusted, that they are an underclass. Rich some of them maybe but they are still looked down on. Much of the support for Arab and Arab countries in the UK is of a 'Lawrence of Arabia' type of colonial attitude. They are admired but they aren't 'one of us'. 

None of these attitudes is helpful or right. What surprised me was watching a series of programmes by Boris Johnson the Mayor of London on Islam. The shadow of the Crusades has never left the Middle East he says. It's left a huge scar on the Arab pysche as well as leaving huge distrust of non Muslims especially the Christian churches. I have to say after centuries of persecution I can sympathise with that.

But still the fixation and the myths, fables and wishful thinking will carry on about Israel.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 10, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> And we give $1.7 BILLION dollars to Egypt during the same time period, several hundred million for military assistance.......the notion of a unique relationship with Israel is mostly smoke and mirrors. We do have a tendency to buy our friends, and keep them paid......but that's not restricted to Israel.
> 
> So, again, why the fixation on ISRAEL?


 
Actually, if one looks into the details of our "aid" to Israel, one does find a rather unique relationship-in fact, it's something that AIPAC brags about at length in their brochures.

In any case, it's hardly a "fixation." The _facts_ that are of chief concern to me are detailed over two pages of this thread: Israel spies on us; Israel steals from us; Israel sells our technology to our enemies.

I haven't even gotten into the things they cooked up in Demona..

And lastly, what I detailed in this post....since you seem to be playing "catch up," sgt......:lfao:


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2009)

Well it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black really, as America spies on Israel ( it spies on everyone so Israel isn't singled out there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Gun) and Jews get accused all the time of stealing things. Even stealing Christmas.


Israel hasn't stolen anything, it buys from Americans willing to betray their country for money. If I were American that would worry me far more than what the Israelis do. There's Americans who'll sell secrets to anyone though why the Swiss I'm not sure. You have officials who enable secrets to be taken. So who's worse, a spy for his country or a person who betrays his country for money?
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/17156

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3137695.ece


----------



## elder999 (Jan 10, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Israel hasn't stolen anything, it buys from Americans willing to betray their country for money.


 
Geez, I'm sorry Irene, but, semantics about "buying from American spies," aside, *Israel steals from us.*

A report in the March 15, 1992, _New York Times_ revealed the pattern of illegal sales by Israel of U.S. weapon technology. The article revealed that Israel did this by either installing the U.S. components in an Israeli weapon system or disassembling the weapon to discover how it worked and then constructing their own, selling the secret technology to foreign countries, some being hostile to the U.S. interests.
 
Israel received Patriot missiles worth hundreds of millions of dollars from the United States, and instead of keeping the technology secret, sold the missiles with Patriot technology to other countries, including China, in clear violation of U.S. law. A State Department report accused Israel of engaging, for nearly ten years, in a systematic pattern of reselling cutting-edge U.S. military technology to Third World countries.

NBC reported fully documented evidence that the government of Israel had sold to the People's Republic of China the most closely guarded secrets of fighter aircraft technology for an estimated price of $5 billion. The Chinese regime plans to use the technology in producing more than 200 fighters beginning in the near future. Intelligence experts say the technology will put China's fighter aircraft on a par with the latest and most advanced U.S. fighters. One feature of the technology enables fighter aircraft to evade most radar

Intelligence experts are not sure how much China paid Israel for the technology. One expert said the fee is very significant, probably $5 billion and perhaps twice that much. The transfer began about 10 years ago when the Lavi, a project of enormous cost to the U.S. taxpayer, was finally scrapped. 

In 1997, "Defense Week" reported (05/27/97) that, ...." the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence reaffirmed that U.S.- derived technology from the cancelled [Israeli] Lavi fighter project is being used on China's new F-10 fighter." The following year, "Jane's Intelligence Review" reported (11/01/98) the transfer by Israel to China of the Phalcon airborne early warning and control system, the Python air-combat missile, and the F-10 fighter aircraft, containing "state-of-the-art U.S. electronics."

The U.S. State Department describes Israel as a "non-traditional _adversary_." They are on a list of countries that I *cannot* travel to without explicit authorization, briefings and debriefings from the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense-as well as anyone else within U.S. military and intelligence who wants in on it. They are on that list-which, BTW, Britain, France, and Japan, other nations that merely "spy" on us,* are not*-for a reason, and that reason is that they steal from us, and they sell our export controlled technology to other adversaries, in direct violation of agreements made for the transfer of that technology to Israel, which is a form of _stealing_, in that it's not theirs to sell.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 10, 2009)

Back on topic, though:

In West Bank, there's anger at Hamas as well as at Israel:



> RAMALLAH , West Bank  Since the war in Gaza began two weeks ago, Rami Hamdan has oscillated between two emotions: sadness at the deaths of Palestinian civilians and anger, not only at Israel but also at its Palestinian foe, the militant Islamist group Hamas .
> 
> "Of course I am unhappy about the killings," said Hamdan, a 30-year-old building inspector in Ramallah , the de facto capital of the West Bank . "But Hamas is also responsible. They breached the truce. Israel is an aggressive entity at the end of the day, and Hamas knew this could happen."
> 
> ...


 
and....

Israel tells Gazans to brace for war escalation
:



> GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip  Israel pounded rocket sites and tunnels Saturday while its planes dropped leaflets warning of an escalation, and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas predicted a "waterfall of blood" unless all parties adhere to the U.N.'s call for a durable cease-fire.
> 
> Hamas fighters kept up attacks on southern Israel, launching 15 rockets. And with neither side ready to step down, the death toll in two weeks of fighting rose to more than 800 Palestinians, according to Palestinian medical officials, and 13 Israelis.
> 
> Flames and smoke rose over Gaza City amid heavy fighting.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2009)

Honestly Elder, you say stealing from you like it's a bad thing! 

I think you can only take the moral high ground if your country hasn't spied or stolen from any other country which it can't say it hasn't. If you set the precendent you can't be surprised when others do the same.
We are your oldest ally and you steal from us, go figure.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...for-its-oldest-friend--the-dollar-707550.html


----------



## elder999 (Jan 10, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Honestly Elder, you say stealing from you like it's a bad thing!
> 
> I think you can only take the moral high ground if your country hasn't spied or stolen from any other country which it can't say it hasn't. If you set the precendent you can't be surprised when others do the same.
> We are your oldest ally and you steal from us, go figure.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...for-its-oldest-friend--the-dollar-707550.html


 
Nope, sorry-doesn't quite wash. In the first place, it *is* a bad thing when it runs counter to our national security interests. I mean, it's not as though they stole or illegally transferred a water-purification system-we're talking about export-protected _weapons and military technology._ Things that could wind up being a threat to the U.S. 

In the second place, two wrongs don't make a right. Nowhere have I said that I approve of any of the actions of my own country in this regard. More importantly, our relationship with Israel is completely different from our relationship with you, and the nature of the "spying" (which you have excused in past posts, in any case, as _expected_ in some way) in each instance is different. The real point is that _Israel has entered into agreements with the U.S. and completely violated them for profit_, in spite of our generosity towards them.

At least you've conceded the extent of Israel's outright _betrayal_ of the U.S.'s trust and support.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2009)

No I haven't actually, I just said you say stealing like its a bad thing and that you can't be surprised when people steal, didn't say it was the Israelis. I don't concede anything.
Spying is a fact of life, everyone is spying on everyone else, if they didn't a lot of us would be out of work lol.

Seriously though, yes the relationship between the UK and America is different, for all the help we received from you in the last world war you charged us dearly, hundreds of millions of pounds, we only finished paying you off a couple of years ago. America demanded and received the rights to several military bases in the UK which they still have, it demanded and received special trading concessions and it demanded and received the poodle like following of our politicians which made us follow you into the blood Iraqi wars then Afghanistan. 

Don't think for one minute we don't realise you will dump us ( and Israel) the minute it becomes useful for you to do so. 

You won't ever understand that the Americans with their money thinking they can buy anything they want in this world is what is really the problem, you send money to Israel, Egypt, Gaza, Argentina (to the Junta that killed so many of its own people and invaded the Falklands) Africa and practically everywhere and yet you can't understand why you aren't loved and respected. It's long been a joke in the the rest of the world, the Americans and money buying their way around the world. 


You shouldn't confuse profit for survival though you know.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 10, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> so.
> 
> You won't ever understand that the Americans with their money thinking they can buy anything they want in this world is what is really the problem, you send money to Israel, Egypt, Gaza, Argentina (to the Junta that killed so many of its own people and invaded the Falklands) Africa and practically everywhere and yet you can't understand why you aren't loved and respected. It's long been a joke in the the rest of the world, the Americans and money buying their way around the world.


 
Oddly enough, I *do* understand it-and I'm almost completely against it.......oddly enough, all that laughter at the joke doesn't _stop_ any of those places from taking our money



Tez3 said:


> You shouldn't confuse profit for survival though you know.


 
I'm not the one that's confused; if I'm confused about anything, it's how Israel's sale of our technology to China has anything to do with their survival, and could be for anything *but* profit.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2009)

I suppose too it hasn't occured to you that nothing is what it seems and America may want Israel to have certain things that if they were to give them overtly it would cause ructions among other nations? If Americans are selling things so easily to the Israelis do you not wonder why? Would it not be easier to clamp down on foreign workers getting security passes etc to work in places the Americans want kept quiet? 
If it was a real problem would the President not be shouting louder, wouldn't Israel be threatened with having aid cut off? 
America doesn't want war with China, it wants good relations as does China with America but overtly supplying China with anything would cause huge problems both at home and away for both countries. what better than Israel as an intermediary? You may not think it's likely, you may not like it but it's naive not to consider it. The deviousness of politicians should never be under rated.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 10, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You may not think it's likely, you may not like it but it's naive not to consider it. The deviousness of politicians should never be under rated.



Oh, but I have considered it, and its likelihood-or the lack thereof. I'm speaking as a citizen in this regard, though-and one who only has knowledge of the public face of the facts at hand, and that one says that Israel is not our friend. It's entirely possible that China was sold a bill of goods, and none of those things work as they should, or that the U.S. has the hidden capability of making them non-functional through electronic means, though this also seems unlikely.

More to the point, I've also considered that the bombing of Gaza is just to use up U.S. supplied hardware, in order to have to buy more, and thus support the U.S. economy--an equally silly but no less likely scenario than U.S. complicity in the selling of our secrets.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Oh, but I have considered it, and its likelihood-or the lack thereof. I'm speaking as a citizen in this regard, though-and one who only has knowledge of the public face of the facts at hand, and that one says that Israel is not our friend. *It's entirely possible that China was sold a bill of goods, and none of those things work as they should, or that the U.S. has the hidden capability of making them non-functional through electronic means, though this also seems unlikely.*
> 
> _Er, that wasn't my thoughts at all. In fact it's very far fetched. I was suggesting that they were simply sold goods they needed and America sold them in a round about way, none of that weird stuff. _
> 
> ...


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2009)

http://www.davidduke.com/

Nice to see such love for Israel.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 10, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> _Er, that wasn't my thoughts at all. In fact it's very far fetched. I was suggesting that they were simply sold goods they needed and America sold them in a round about way, none of that weird stuff._


 

It's *all* weird stuff. :lol: We've forbidden export of those items for really valid reasons-we wouldn't sell them to the Chinese in a roundabout way, any more than we would openly. At least, the notion is no more or less likely than:



			
				el Brujo de la Cueva said:
			
		

> More to the point, I've also considered that the bombing of Gaza is just to use up U.S. supplied hardware, in order to have to buy more, and thus support the U.S. economy


 



Tez3 said:


> _Thats an odd thought, it doesn't make any sense. Isreal got sick and tired of being the target of rockets killing it's people, no more no less than that. _


 
*None* of it makes any sense. :lol: While I'll grant you that Israel probably did just get sick of being the target of rockets-and maybe wanted to do a little housecleaning before the new President can jerk their chain- it *is* going to make us some money. Do you have any idea of how much they're expending in armament, financially? Where do you think they'll get the replacements from?




Tez3 said:


> http://www.davidduke.com/
> 
> Nice to see such love for Israel.


 
I'd invoke Godwin's law-maybe I'll make a corollary to it: _Duke's half-pint Hitler wannabe maxim_, or something.....:lfao:

(I'll bet you don't know who David Duke is, Irene, but I'll forgive this one in either case.....:lfao


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jan 11, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Dude, *you* _started it._ I think your memory of _*yesterday*_ is mistaken, or distorted on the matter...:lfao:....allow me:


 If you read that statement as a response to my post.....even you will realize it's a dodge of the point I made.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jan 11, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Actually, if one looks into the details of our "aid" to Israel, one does find a rather unique relationship-in fact, it's something that AIPAC brags about at length in their brochures.
> 
> In any case, it's hardly a "fixation." The _facts_ that are of chief concern to me are detailed over two pages of this thread: Israel spies on us; Israel steals from us; Israel sells our technology to our enemies.
> 
> ...


 You seem to be more impressed with the cleverness of your posts than they were worthy of......especially since you've now resorted to evidence of 'bragging' as opposed to empirical evidence of how much money in aid is being spent, when confronted by Israel's neighbor, Egypt, getting a comparable amount from us.....but I guess if you add enough smilies it'll APPEAR as though you have an argument. 

Let the STRAW GRASPING begin in the sad attempt to paint Israel as some unique evil in the world! :lfao:


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jan 11, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Nope, sorry-doesn't quite wash. In the first place, it *is* a bad thing when it runs counter to our national security interests. I mean, it's not as though they stole or illegally transferred a water-purification system-we're talking about export-protected _weapons and military technology._ Things that could wind up being a threat to the U.S.


 You might like the CLINTON ADMINISTRATION gave to the Chinese? :lfao:


----------



## elder999 (Jan 11, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> If you read that statement as a response to my post.....even you will realize it's a dodge of the point I made.


 
What _point_ was that, exactly? 



sgtmac_46 said:


> You seem to be more impressed with the cleverness of your posts than they were worthy of......especially since you've now resorted to evidence of 'bragging' as opposed to empirical evidence of how much money in aid is being spent, when confronted by Israel's neighbor, Egypt, getting a comparable amount from us.....but I guess if you add enough smilies it'll APPEAR as though you have an argument.


 
Actually, no.

Israel receives more military aid from the U.S. than any other country in the world-note that I didn't say that the U.S. _sells _Israel more arms than any other country, I said that Israel receives more military aid. The bulk of the foreign aid we send to Israel is, in fact, in the form of armaments, or money to purchase them.This is unique, especially when one considers the GDP of Israel, it's per capita income, and exactly which products that Israel exports to the U.S.-in other words, when one considers the _economic_ benefits the U.S. consumer sees from Israel......since, as Tez3 has posted, we're all about money here........:lol:

Another unique thing is that-well, take this year. When the budget is formulated and passed, whatever form it takes, it *will* contain military aid to Israel. No big deal: all foreign aid typically represents about 1% of the U.S. budget. Considered this way, even in the current economic climate, the massive amount of military aid the U.S. gives to Israel is a pittance. In any case, Israel typically receives all these funds within _30 days_ of the budget being set-another unique factor in this relationship. No other nation gets paid out their U.S. foreign aid in this manner. 

And of course, there's the way the aid is structured: typically, Israel is committed to spending at least 50% of the money we give them on U.S. produced defense products. I say typically, because there are a bunch of loopholes now that defense contractors like Lockheed Martin (just as an example) have outsourced so much of their production. In any case, this constitutes a form of _corporate welfare_ that is another unique factor in our relationship. As Tez3 pointed out, we are _selling_ some $22-odd billion dollars worth of arms to Saudi Arabia, and, just as also pointed out, we sell arms to all kinds of people around the world, more than any one else. No where, though, not to Jordan, Argentina, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan, Japan (there's another "interesting" story), do we actually give money to the country to buy stuff from us-_except_ for Israel. In return, what we get is a form of corporate welfare-and we get our hardware field tested, sooner or later.....:lfao:

I don't think that Israel is a "unique evil" in the world. I don't even think that Israel is "evil," if such a thing as an entire country being evil is possible. Hell, I like Israel, most Israelis I've met, and I usually admire their country's gutsiness and determination in the face of all their neighbors unquestionably wanting them gone. 

I just question the benefit of the U.S.'s unique relationship with them to the U.S. 



			
				sgtmac46 said:
			
		

> Let the STRAW GRASPING begin in the sad attempt to paint Israel as some unique evil in the world! :lfao:


 


			
				sgtmac46 said:
			
		

> You might like the CLINTON ADMINISTRATION gave to the Chinese?


 
Now who's grasping at STRAWS? :lfao:

(think I'll come up with a _Clinton Administration corollary_ to Godwin's law as well....:lfao That's not to say I'm discounting the validity of your accusation. Having been witness to the W-88 debacle, as well as some of the after effects of his transfer of technology licensing to the Department of Commerce, I could probably only agree with you-but _it's hardly relevant._

Meanwhile, back on topic, in other, more relevant news: 



> *Israeli troops, militants battle in Gaza suburb*
> 
> GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip &#8211; Israeli troops battled Palestinian gunmen in a suburb of Gaza City Sunday in one of the fiercest ground battles so far as Israel's military inched toward Gaza's population centers and residents braced for an expansion of the offensive.
> The fighting in the Sheikh Ajleen neighborhood erupted before dawn and continued through the morning as Israeli infantrymen and tanks advanced toward Gaza City and its approximately 400,000 residents, Palestinian witnesses said. Hamas and the smaller militant group Islamic Jihad said they ambushed the Israelis, leading to some of the heaviest fighting since Israel sent ground forces into the coastal territory on Jan. 3.


 
And, in another bit of Middle Eastern insanity: 



> *Iran disputes report on suicide volunteers*
> 
> TEHRAN, Iran &#8211; Iranian officials on Saturday strongly disputed media reports that Iran's top leader Ayatollah Ali Khameini has banned volunteers from leaving the country to carry out suicide bombings against Israel and stressed that the supreme leader meant only that practical obstacles remained for such attackers to get to Gaza.
> 
> ...


 
....just to point out one of the real "evils" of the region.....in keeping with the title of the thread, it seems to me that _no one wants peace in the Holy Land_.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 11, 2009)

No, I don't know who David Duke is but he's seen as representing America outside America I'm afraid.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 11, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> No, I don't know who David Duke is but he's seen as representing America outside America I'm afraid.


 
Well, ya know who Martyn Gilleard is, dontcha? 

It's rather like seeing him as "representing Britain outside of Britain," I'm afraid or saying that Yigal Amir represents Israel. Though, admittedly, David Duke has a larger audience here, and confines his inclinations to the media, and seeking public office, on occasion. 

In any case, he and I surely in agreement on one thing:

He certainly doesn't represent _*me*_..:lfao:


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 11, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Well, ya know who Martyn Gilleard is, dontcha?
> 
> It's rather like seeing him as "representing Britain outside of Britain," I'm afraid. Though, admittedly, David Duke has a larger audience here, and confines his inclinations to the media, and seeking public office, on occasion.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry I don't. Don't forget though with people like this it's the sqeaky wheel that gets the attention.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 11, 2009)

Meanwhile, back on topic:



> *Israeli troops meet Hamas resistance deep in Gaza*
> GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip &#8211; Israeli troops made their deepest advance into the Gaza Strip's most heavily populated area on Sunday, encountering increasingly fierce resistance from Islamic Hamas fighters as they warned civilians to stay clear of the battle zone.
> Speaking to his Cabinet, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the country "is nearing" its goals, but that the offensive will continue despite global calls for a cease-fire, led by the U.N. Security Council.
> Israel warned Gaza's 1.4 million residents on Saturday that it plans to escalate a devastating air and ground assault that already has killed more than 800 Palestinians. Israel launched the offensive on Dec. 27 to halt years of Palestinian rocket attacks on its southern towns.
> Egypt has been trying to broker a truce. Germany's foreign minister was in Israel on Sunday to promote the U.N. proposal, and Israel planned to send a senior defense official to Egypt later in the week. U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon plans to travel to the region this week.


 
and, in a related development:



> *Bush reportedly rejected Israeli plea to raid Iran*
> 
> WASHINGTON &#8211; President George W. Bush rejected a plea from Israel last year to help it raid Iran's main nuclear complex, opting instead to authorize a new U.S. covert action aimed at sabotaging Iran's suspected nuclear weapons program, The New York Times reported.
> Israel's request was for specialized bunker-busting bombs that it wanted for an attack that tentatively involved flying over Iraq to reach Iran's major nuclear complex at Natanz, where the country's only known uranium enrichment plant is located, the Times reported Saturday in its online edition. The White House deflected requests for the bombs and flyover but said it would improve intelligence-sharing with Israel on covert U.S. efforts to sabotage Iran's nuclear program


----------



## elder999 (Jan 11, 2009)

And, in another related development:



> *
> Rights group: Israel uses incendiary bombs in Gaza*
> 
> JERUSALEM  Human Rights Watch said Sunday that Israel's military has fired artillery shells with the incendiary agent white phosphorus into Gaza and a doctor there said the chemical was suspected in the case of 10 burn victims who had skin peeling off their faces and bodies.
> ...


----------



## Empty Hands (Jan 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> No, I don't know who David Duke is but he's seen as representing America outside America I'm afraid.



If you don't know who he is, how do you know that he is seen as representing America?

Anyways, anyone who thinks so is foolish.  Duke is widely regarded as what he is, a racist neo-nazi and former Klan member.  If someone outside America doesn't take the trouble to find that out, then they might as well believe that any kook with a website represents America.  If only our government took their cues from the Timecube guy...


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 12, 2009)

Empty Hands said:


> If you don't know who he is, how do you know that he is seen as representing America?
> 
> Anyways, anyone who thinks so is foolish. Duke is widely regarded as what he is, a racist neo-nazi and former Klan member. If someone outside America doesn't take the trouble to find that out, then they might as well believe that any kook with a website represents America. If only our government took their cues from the Timecube guy...


 
He's been on the television here and in the media as a 'talking head' giving 'expert' views on the American elections. He is being accorded status as a serious American politician in several European countries.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> . He is being accorded status as a serious American politician in several European countries.


 
Well, he's not. 

have a look here. Of course, he was pals with John Tyndall; maybe you knew who he was?


----------



## CoryKS (Jan 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> He's been on the television here and in the media as a 'talking head' giving 'expert' views on the American elections. He is being accorded status as a serious American politician in several European countries.


 
That's because he opposed the War on Terror (on grounds that 9/11 was perpetrated by Mossad) and Israel's excursion into Lebanon.  Sometimes, having the 'correct' politics can be the difference between being seen as a racist nutjob and being voted, say, the senator from West Virginia.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 12, 2009)

I Imagine it's like the Paul Burrell (the late Princess of Wales' butler) who is making a fortune in America with all his stories about the Royal Household etc. The truth is vastly differnt and he's actually hated here for the damage he's caused. However people in the American media seem to have taken him at his word, he's a very good self publicist.


----------



## CoryKS (Jan 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I Imagine it's like the Paul Burrell (the late Princess of Wales' butler) who is making a fortune in America with all his stories about the Royal Household etc. The truth is vastly differnt and he's actually hated here for the damage he's caused. However people in the American media seem to have taken him at his word, he's a very good self publicist.


 
Exactly.  I suspect that Duke's message was rather well received in the European media, and his status was elevated accordingly.


----------



## CoryKS (Jan 12, 2009)

BTW, Mark Steyn had a good article today.  But then, he usually does.

The 'oldest hatred' lives, from Gaza to Florida.  



> Once upon a time on the Continent, Jews were hated as rootless cosmopolitan figures who owed no national allegiance. So they became a conventional nation state, and now they're hated for that. And, if Hamas get their way and destroy the Jewish state, the few who survive will be hated for something else. So it goes.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> He's been on the television here and in the media as a 'talking head' giving 'expert' views on the American elections. He is being accorded status as a serious American politician in several European countries.



Talk about misinformation or uninformed. (no Tez3 I am not talking about you but instead the European media that would believe this)


----------



## Empty Hands (Jan 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> He's been on the television here and in the media as a 'talking head' giving 'expert' views on the American elections. He is being accorded status as a serious American politician in several European countries.



Ugh.  Your news media has perpetrated a massive disservice on its viewers.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 12, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Talk about misinformation or uninformed. (no Tez3 I am not talking about you but instead the European media that would believe this)


 
It's about being able to use the media though isn't it? Making them believe what you want while giving them what they want. It's the other war that's going on in Gaza, the media one. Sadly though the Israelis lose that war and the Palestininas tend to win in the sympathy stakes.
Television wants soundbites, small pieces of info and pictures they can show then move on, no one researches into things now as there's no time and th punters want the next soundbite.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> It's about being able to use the media though isn't it? Making them believe what you want while giving them what they want. It's the other war that's going on in Gaza, the media one. Sadly though the Israelis lose that war and the Palestininas tend to win in the sympathy stakes.
> Television wants soundbites, small pieces of info and pictures they can show then move on, no one researches into things now as there's no time and th punters want the next soundbite.



That may be the case but it is a sorry state if David Duke is given any air time. (and an even sorrier commentary on the news media outlets that do so)


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 12, 2009)

Certain parts of Europe are very receptive to rascist rhetoric.


----------



## Natty (Jan 12, 2009)

Quote: from elder999

*Iran disputes report on suicide volunteers*

TEHRAN, Iran  Iranian officials on Saturday strongly disputed media reports that Iran's top leader Ayatollah Ali Khameini has banned volunteers from leaving the country to carry out suicide bombings against Israel and stressed that the supreme leader meant only that practical obstacles remained for such attackers to get to Gaza.

The officials said The Associated Press misinterpreted Khamenei's comments when he said Thursday that "our hands are tied in this arena." The AP also quoted Khamenei as saying that Iran would assist the militant group Hamas, which is fighting Israel, in other ways.

The Iranian officials said Khamenei's words should not have been interpreted as a ban on such volunteers, _but meant that any Iranians would have great practical difficulty in reaching Gaza because of Israel's offensive_. The report was used by some Arab television stations. 			 		 	 	 
....just to point out one of the real "evils" of the region.....in keeping with the title of the thread, it seems to me that _no one wants peace in the Holy Land_. 		 		  		  		 		  		 		 			 				__________________

I agree with you. I've been stating that there is guilt on all sides. To solve this situation, many issues need to be addressed. HAMAS needs to be destroyed of course, but, Israel is not handing it in a proper fashion. If they pull out now, HAMAS will claim victory and will resume the attacks. If they continue, they look very unethical. Shooting bombs with white phosphorus in it, which causes severe chemical burns is a violation in civilian areas. If they were just fighting HAMAS in a military zone, it would comply with international law, but, the fact there are families down there they are in violation. They need to get the civilians out, destroy HAMAS, and put sanctions on Iran. Otherwise, forget the whole thing. The fighting will continue. As far as sending suicide bombers, they don't need to. With the trauma going on, people down there will be angry enough that they will volunteer.  As I said, all sides need to step back and evaluate the situation.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 13, 2009)

And, in today's New York Times:



> *Israelis United on War as Censure Rises Abroad *
> 
> 
> JERUSALEM &#8212; To Israel&#8217;s critics abroad, the picture could not be clearer: Israel&#8217;s war in Gaza is a wildly disproportionate response to the rockets of Hamas, causing untold human suffering and bombing an already isolated and impoverished population into the Stone Age, and it must be stopped.
> ...


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Jan 13, 2009)

But then, I stopped considering the Times a reputable news source almost 10 years ago, so....*shrug*.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 13, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> But then, I stopped considering the Times a reputable news source almost 10 years ago, so....*shrug*.


 

Have you read it? Did you read the article? While it offers that the _majority_ of Israelis _seem_ to wholeheartedly support the Israeli governments actions in Gaza, it also offers some alternative viewpoints from the Israeli public. Which means that they at least sought them out.......around the world, people are protesting the Israeli government's actions-not so much here, but in Europe, and certainly in what we'd call "Islamic" countries, like Iran and Pakistan. That's worth paying attention to, because, for better or worse, _our support of Israel isone of the things that has made us a target of terrorism, time and time again...._


----------



## Twin Fist (Jan 13, 2009)

if supporting Israel makes us enemies like the islamic nutbarks, then i would say that is proof that our support of Israel is the right thing to do.

If people who think stoning a 13 year old girl who was raped is the right thing to do dont like you, you are doing something right.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jan 13, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> if supporting Israel makes us enemies like the islamic nutbarks, then i would say that is proof that our support of Israel is the right thing to do.
> 
> If people who think stoning a 13 year old girl who was raped is the right thing to do dont like you, you are doing something right.


 I think we're safely on the right side of that equation!


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jan 13, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Have you read it? Did you read the article? While it offers that the _majority_ of Israelis _seem_ to wholeheartedly support the Israeli governments actions in Gaza, it also offers some alternative viewpoints from the Israeli public. Which means that they at least sought them out.......around the world, people are protesting the Israeli government's actions-not so much here, but in Europe, and certainly in what we'd call "Islamic" countries, like Iran and Pakistan. That's worth paying attention to, because, for better or worse, _our support of Israel isone of the things that has made us a target of terrorism, time and time again...._


 Yeah, Europe has a long history of....shall we say.....'interesting' views on Israel in particular, and jews in general. 

And if fear of making some islamists angry makes us cower away from supporting allies we don't deserve to continue to exist as a nation!


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jan 13, 2009)

elder999 said:


> And, in today's New York Times:


It should be disproportionate! The price for attacking ME should be SO HIGH that you really don't find much to gain by doing it, and everything to lose! NOT an eye for an eye, but TWO eyes for an eye!

Nemo me impune lacessit

When you're on the kind of PRISON YARD playground Israel lives in, YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO PLAY THAT WAY! Overwhelming violence as the PRICE your enemy pays for attacking you is the ONLY WAY to survive in that kind of environment. 

In that world, a man punches you in the nose, you stab him to death and leaving him laying in a pool of his own blood as a message to others.....disproportionate violence isn't only acceptable, it's REQUIRED! In that world, tit for tat quid pro quo proportional escalation, or WORSE, 'diplomatic' groveling is SUICIDE!


----------



## elder999 (Jan 13, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> If people who think stoning a 13 year old girl who was raped is the right thing to do dont like you, you are doing something right.


 

Of course, this happened in Somalia-not in Gaza.

Meanwhile, in other news :



> *Israeli envoy plans 'decisive' talks in Egypt*
> 
> 
> GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip &#8211; Israel's chief negotiator will go to Egypt for "decisive" talks on a cease-fire with Hamas, officials said Tuesday, as the sound of battles between Israeli troops and Palestinian militants rang out in the crowded streets of Gaza City.
> ...


----------



## elder999 (Jan 15, 2009)

And, moving along in other news:




> *Israeli forces shell UN headquarters in Gaza*
> 
> GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip  Israeli forces shelled the United Nations headquarters in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, setting fire to the compound filled with hundreds of refugees as U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon was in the region on a mission to end Israel's devastating offensive against the territory's Hamas rulers.
> 
> ...


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## CoryKS (Jan 15, 2009)

> Ban expressed "outrage" over the bombing.


 
Which is pretty much all the "United" Nations can do.  Strongly-worded letter thus dispatched, they can go back to doing, uh, whatever the hell it is they do.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 15, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Of course, this happened in Somalia-not in Gaza.



Muslims in both cases


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## elder999 (Jan 15, 2009)

Well, it depends upon what _flavor_ of Islam you're talking about, but what happens in Somalia hardly seems relevant to the current discussion. Lumping "Muslims" together does no one any service, since there are entirely different sects and systems of belief under its umbrella. Most of the Islamic authorities of the Middle East, and probably even Eastern Europe would find the Muslims of Southeast Asia, who have retained elements of Hunduism and Animism in their religious practices, to be somewhat if not wholly heretical, for example. 

In any case, while _Hamas_ is almost certainly entirely Islamic, the population of Gaza is not. Of course, their Christian population is very small-and getting smaller, it seems-but there is a presence of Palestinian Christians there, just as there are in the West Bank and Israel itself....there is, in fact, a population of _Jews_ within Gaza, though this is rather small as well.


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2009)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21434471-2703,00.html

Hamas and women


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