# Journey to a new style...



## _Simon_

Okay... the time has come!

I'm finally (after much, much hesitation and deliberation haha..) enquiring about new styles, as I'm honestly just itching to get back into dojo training.. and feel mostly ready health-wise.

It's been an incredibly rough, painful, hellish and emotional 8 months or so.. and I still have a bit to go in terms of recovery, but I feel ready enough to try getting into training properly again. And it really marks a big step for me, as I definitely wasn't in this position a little while ago.

So the plan is to try a style for about a month or so to get the feel of it and see if it clicks with me. Very different to how I decided before, which was just training because I 'felt like I should', out of obligation almost. So suffice it to say, I'm very excited .

I've gotten a call back from a karate dojo just around the corner from me, I asked if i can sit in and watch and they said people tend to get more out of just giving it a go, so they invited me to train so looks like I'm training!

It sounds really awesome, it's a small dojo, and has gone through a few changes of style affiliation over time, and I think they operate more independently now, originally he trained in Kyokushin (and personally graded to Shodan under Sosai Oyama!), then Ashihara, Shintaiikudo, and taught in all of these, now with all his experience has organically sort of formed his own style, which incorporates all his previous styles plus including some Aikido principles as well (which he teaches as well). 

Definitely sounds more up my alley, I'm really excited


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## hoshin1600

sounds good ,,have fun.


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## oftheherd1

Good luck in finding the style you want and staying healthy.


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## Headhunter

Good luck let us know how it goes.


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## Buka

That's great news, Simon. Go and have some fun, bro.


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## _Simon_

Thanks so much all, excited and nervous


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## _Simon_

Well... first night done! Was fair nervous approaching and trialling out a new style, but it was awesome and learnt alot already! It's more of a fusion, and generally called Aiki karate, combining karate and aikido principles.

Really different stuff than I'm used to! But I caught on relatively quick enough. Awesome instructor, really attentive, not a drill sergeant hehe, and very warm.

We worked on different sabaki footwork, the 12 steps it was called, then doing this with a partner, blocking and reverse punch. Using different techniques with the footwork. Worked on shuto mawashi uke, and mawashi uke with a partner.

Then the next bit was interesting, we partnered up and put a bo on each of our haras, and worked on activating the hara. Had never done that before, it was basically tensing at the lower abdomen, then went on to try extend ki through the hand that was grabbed, but starting from the hara and extending out to the hand.

We then did this blocks, but blocking with the whole body (not just doing hard karate blocks that I'm used to), essentially utilising ki and the hara to unbalanced the opponent. I think the idea is to keep your centre, and displace theirs.

I was watching Sensei demonstrate on one of the students many times, and to be honest at first I did think the student was putting it on (falling too easily etc), but after actually feeling it myself, performing it myself (after much guidance I managed to just get it haha), and also having it done on me it truly is the real deal... Was just fascinating how effortless it was! We then did it from seiza/kneeled position, partner grabbing my hands and me trying from there. And barely without much movement at all from activating the hara and extending it through the hands I was able to topple him haha, never experienced that before.

It was refreshing his approach, and we talked about my Kyokushin training and how he moved on from there too when he thought that he wanted to continue to be training many years later and not be crippled, I laughed and agreed. He even mentioned how Sosai Oyama was injured a fair bit at times back in the day.


But one thing I'd love clarification on (if anyone could respond that'd be great) is the activating and moving from the hara. Is it basically a tensing of the lower abdominal muscles? As some of you may know, I have pelvic floor tension myalgia (overtightness of pelvic muscles), and I'm definitely feeling a bit sore and quite tightened up after tonight haha.. Was it possible I was doing it wrong, or is this what using your hara involves? Any aikido-ka or anyone I'd love some input on this and would appreciate any info. As I'm not sure I can keep up that practice, as I need to work on relaxing the area. I didn't get a chance to ask, I may next week.


Whether I stay with the style I don't know at this stage, I'll go 3 or 4 times all up (they only train once a week..) then plan to trial elsewhere. I really did enjoy it alot though, the dojo members were great, and very welcoming and helpful.

A big win all in all, feels like a fresh start


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## _Simon_

Okay, I've been for a few sessions now and have really enjoyed it . The people there are great, really warm, welcoming, and no display of ego or alpha-ish behaviour.

There are a lot of very foreign concepts to me that Sensei teaches which I'd love to learn more about, and it's definitely a different style and blend of karate and other MA principles.

My favourite quote Sensei said which I'll remember: "Sometimes you've got to go through the hard to get to the soft." Definitely resonated with that, and it sounds like we've been on similar paths. The pain has been up and down, and usually am a bit tightened up after class but it hasn't been too bad from it. I'm definitely seeing just how much I've trained myself to be so incredibly tense during training, and I'm learning to profoundly relax more during training.

Keeping this dojo on the top of my list of possibilities .

For now I'm going to move on to try out something else. Not sure what to try out next, potentially Taekwondo which will be very frightening and a very different experience haha. Can't wait, feel like there's a renewed confidence in training again


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## oftheherd1

Good luck with your search.


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## _Simon_

oftheherd1 said:


> Good luck with your search.


Cheers dude


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## hoshin1600

_Simon_ said:


> But one thing I'd love clarification on (if anyone could respond that'd be great) is the activating and moving from the hara


the way it was explained to me was keeping your hips under your shoulders.  the feeling of being pulled by your belt comes to mind.
maybe its a way of saying to move your entire body as one unit rather than shoulders first or the feet first with the rest of the body needing to catch up


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## _Simon_

hoshin1600 said:


> the way it was explained to me was keeping your hips under your shoulders.  the feeling of being pulled by your belt comes to mind.
> maybe its a way of saying to move your entire body as one unit rather than shoulders first or the feet first with the rest of the body needing to catch up



Yeah that makes sense, it was briefly mentioned in my previous dojo in a similar way. I guess it's a movement starting from your centre, but in terms of unbalancing an opponent it seems a little more than that, and was fascinating when it worked... like a tensing at the hara which you extend from there throughout the body to direct energy out as one unified forced, rather than just using isolated arm strength, like you said.

Thanks mate


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## pgsmith

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah that makes sense, it was briefly mentioned in my previous dojo in a similar way. I guess it's a movement starting from your centre, but in terms of unbalancing an opponent it seems a little more than that, and was fascinating when it worked... like a tensing at the hara which you extend from there throughout the body to direct energy out as one unified forced, rather than just using isolated arm strength, like you said.
> 
> Thanks mate


  OK, putting myself out here trying to explain something that really can't be had through explanations, but I don't want you to injure yourself by trying too hard in a wrong direction.   Everything that I've learned about using your hara or tanden involves NOT tensing. Tensing up your muscles has a tendency to decrease the effectiveness of what you're trying to accomplish but, at the same time, may make it almost impossible to actually feel for those that haven't practiced it a lot. Contradiction I know, but most people work through it. With your issues, I didn't want you to try too hard and hurt yourself. 

  The best description I heard of it was "weight underside". Beginners, in trying to keep their weight underneath them at all times, tend to tense up their core to accomplish this. Once they've practiced enough, they usually find that they can do the same thing while keeping the muscles in their core relaxed. Having relaxed muscles allows for a much greater transfer of energy from you to your opponent because you aren't fighting your body's movements.

  What I guess I am trying to get at is that you don't necessarily want to think of tensing, you want to think in terms of movement. It just doesn't require much movement at all to unbalance your opponent when your entire body weight is making said movement.


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## Tames D

Agreed


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## _Simon_

pgsmith said:


> OK, putting myself out here trying to explain something that really can't be had through explanations, but I don't want you to injure yourself by trying too hard in a wrong direction.   Everything that I've learned about using your hara or tanden involves NOT tensing. Tensing up your muscles has a tendency to decrease the effectiveness of what you're trying to accomplish but, at the same time, may make it almost impossible to actually feel for those that haven't practiced it a lot. Contradiction I know, but most people work through it. With your issues, I didn't want you to try too hard and hurt yourself.
> 
> The best description I heard of it was "weight underside". Beginners, in trying to keep their weight underneath them at all times, tend to tense up their core to accomplish this. Once they've practiced enough, they usually find that they can do the same thing while keeping the muscles in their core relaxed. Having relaxed muscles allows for a much greater transfer of energy from you to your opponent because you aren't fighting your body's movements.
> 
> What I guess I am trying to get at is that you don't necessarily want to think of tensing, you want to think in terms of movement. It just doesn't require much movement at all to unbalance your opponent when your entire body weight is making said movement.



Ah that's awesome, thanks so much for the explanation. I think I get what you're saying, and understand it's a hard thing to describe without the experience of it to play with.

That makes a lot of sense actually, and probably why I was confused, as I did initially think using hara and ki was more about relaxing and not forcing movement with strength and 'trying too hard', but working with natural flow and energy. Finding and moving from a centred place. And yeah I appreciate your concern, as I didn't want to learn how to tense more, which is the opposite of where I'm trying to reach haha.

So it's more of an awareness as to your body and alignment being more centred, and moving from there in a relaxed and natural way... I'll have a play with that...

Much appreciated


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## pgsmith

_Simon_ said:


> So it's more of an awareness as to your body and alignment being more centred, and moving from there in a relaxed and natural way... I'll have a play with that...


  Relaxed for sure, but *not* natural. If it were a natural way of movement, we wouldn't have to practice so hard to learn to do it correctly.


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## _Simon_

pgsmith said:


> Relaxed for sure, but *not* natural. If it were a natural way of movement, we wouldn't have to practice so hard to learn to do it correctly.


Haha true! Although, there are plenty of natural ways of being which we've just forgotten about, but yeah makes sense it would need training .

I wonder then what the other style of using your hara is that I was shown and drilled, maybe it's a preliminary way of learning it and then like you said you can do it without needing to contract there..


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## Buka

Understanding "hara" depends on who's teaching and who's learning, But, Simon, learn all you can to understand it and utilize your understanding in your movement.

The shoulders staying over the hips is balance and back health. If we're stand up fighting and I get your shoulder's off your hip line, you ain't going to be standing for long.  
And any time your back is a little sore, pay close attention to keeping your shoulders over your hip line throughout your day, no matter what you're doing. It will make your day a lot easier.

Also, hara can be used to increase both speed and quickness in a big way. BIG.


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## _Simon_

Buka said:


> Understanding "hara" depends on who's teaching and who's learning, But, Simon, learn all you can to understand it and utilize your understanding in your movement.
> 
> The shoulders staying over the hips is balance and back health. If we're stand up fighting and I get your shoulder's off your hip line, you ain't going to be standing for long.
> And any time your back is a little sore, pay close attention to keeping your shoulders over your hip line throughout your day, no matter what you're doing. It will make your day a lot easier.
> 
> Also, hara can be used to increase both speed and quickness in a big way. BIG.



Thanks Buka, always appreciate your wisdom and experience, very helpful. *bows*

I'll definitely experiment with that. Ultimately I want to not only be able to train in a more relaxed and natural way, but live everyday life from that. From what the last little while has shown me, that's a priority hehe


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## _Simon_

Okay! Been awhile since I've posted here, but struggling bad with the usual pain stuff and had flareups so been unable to really look into other styles and train properly and consistently.

But am feeling relatively good so tonight am training at a Taekwondo dojang for a few weeks! Originally sat in to watch another dojang but.......... hmmm...... let's just say I wasn't a fan in the slightest of the vibe and energy of teaching... so this one seems cool and the instructor you can tell isn't just a taekwondo practitioner, but just loves martial arts in general and his passion is palpable. A little bit of a drive to get there (25mins) but am not fussed. The other place I checked out is literally 2 mins drive away and I won't be training there. Says much . Although that place is the head dojang and the same group, so if I joined I may have to do my gradings there...

First session tonight, craaaazy nervous haha but looking forward to it!

Hmmm... will my legs be sore after tonight... shall see hehe!


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## _Simon_

_Simon_ said:


> Okay! Been awhile since I've posted here, but struggling bad with the usual pain stuff and had flareups so been unable to really look into other styles and train properly and consistently.
> 
> But am feeling relatively good after a few Bowen therapy sessions (and Pranic Healing sessions too which have been incredibly helpful...), and tonight I'm training at a Taekwondo dojang for a few weeks to trial it out! Originally sat in to watch another dojang but.......... hmmm...... let's just say I wasn't a fan in the slightest of the vibe and energy of teaching... so this other one seems cool and the instructor you can tell isn't just a taekwondo practitioner, but just loves martial arts in general and his passion is palpable. A little bit of a drive to get there (25mins) but am not fussed. The other place I checked out is literally 2 mins drive away and I won't be training there. Says much . Although that place is the head dojang and the same group, so if I joined I may have to do my gradings there...
> 
> First session tonight, craaaazy nervous haha but looking forward to it!
> 
> Hmmm... will my legs be sore after tonight... shall see hehe!


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## _Simon_

Ok no idea what happened there with the last two messages.. can't even edit them! Ah well..

Had the class and I loved it! Was good fun, the instructor lent me his dobok top, and they're more than ok with me training with them for 3 or 4 weeks. Told him about my pelvic condition and he was very understanding and said how important it is to listen to your body and not push it too hard.

Did a warmup and looots of stretching hehe.. then worked on some kicking drills which I loved doing. A fair bit different to karate, and I loved how he emphasized being relaxed and fluid and flowing it together. Really good instructor, and made sure to be with every group and to point out things to improve. He broke it down, demonstrated it himself multiple times and explained it well.

It was essentially covering distance to do a round kick with the front leg, but not shuffling the back leg up, and instead driving off the back leg, lifting the front knee and launching forward. Then added a tornado kick after that.

Said my kicks were really good, and gave me some pointers. Unfortunately classes are only an hour long which am not sure you can fit much into.. so we mainly worked on those pad kick drills and built on that.

Had never trained with those TKD style hand pads before so that was cool!

I could definitely see myself training here. So I'll go about twice a week and see how we go. I still wanna explore other stuff before I commit. Am a bit iffy still about the head instructor... but I figure if I train with this fellow (who is not like the other at all) I'd only have the gradings to do at the other dojang. Has anyone ever encountered this sort of situation? Haha.. training in a place you love, but every now and then having to train/grade under a different and not as 'preferred' instructor?

All in all very proud that I took the step and went, a big deal for me


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## _Simon_

Worked on defense against a stick attack in class on Monday, really cool, and pretty realistic, simple and effective defense too.

Have never been that interested in those sorts of defenses, arm locks, grab defenses etc for some reason, and I wasn't really the best at them (maybe that explains it hehe), but I enjoyed these, and picked them up really quick with some great guidance


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## oftheherd1

Sorry I hadn't been keeping up with this thread and your journey.  Looks like you are having fun and learning some things as well.  I am curious how you feel about Gi after having been taught some rudiments.  You may have seen some discussions here at MT about it.  Some people simply cannot accept the existence of Gi.  FWIW, in the Hapkido I studied, we did it a little different.  We We stood and moved our hands forward, up, down and from out to in, while bending our legs and breathed in and out while concentrating on our tan jon (greatly simplified explanation).  Out of curiosity, I looked up Korean Gi and couldn't find that much with those search words, but did find The Ki in Hapkido Scott Shaw which differs from how I was taught.  It obviously works for the article author, as did the way I was taught worked for me.  When I studied TKD I was encouraged to concentrate gi into control as well as power, but never practices as I just described when I studied Hapkido.

Glad to see you continuing your search.  I hope you find what you like soon.  The first one you describe would put it high on my list if I were looking, just for the fac that they promote study of Gi.  YMMV and that is OK.  You are the one looking for what fits you.


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## _Simon_

oftheherd1 said:


> Sorry I hadn't been keeping up with this thread and your journey.  Looks like you are having fun and learning some things as well.  I am curious how you feel about Gi after having been taught some rudiments.  You may have seen some discussions here at MT about it.  Some people simply cannot accept the existence of Gi.  FWIW, in the Hapkido I studied, we did it a little different.  We We stood and moved our hands forward, up, down and from out to in, while bending our legs and breathed in and out while concentrating on our tan jon (greatly simplified explanation).  Out of curiosity, I looked up Korean Gi and couldn't find that much with those search words, but did find The Ki in Hapkido Scott Shaw which differs from how I was taught.  It obviously works for the article author, as did the way I was taught worked for me.  When I studied TKD I was encouraged to concentrate gi into control as well as power, but never practices as I just described when I studied Hapkido.
> 
> Glad to see you continuing your search.  I hope you find what you like soon.  The first one you describe would put it high on my list if I were looking, just for the fac that they promote study of Gi.  YMMV and that is OK.  You are the one looking for what fits you.



Ah that's all good no probs, thanks mate nice to hear from ya.

Yeah it's all going well, this is only the second style I've trialled out now and it has been a lengthy process, so am trying to be patient with it all. Am so keen to commit to a style and train yet I don't want to rush the process and would like to really click with where I train.

Yeah I'm definitely open to ki and recognise its validity. Considering I've had numerous kinesiology sessions over the years and pranic healing sessions of late (essentially checking within the aura and chakras where there is congestion and unblocking them, delving into the root cause of dysfunction and subconscious beliefs about yourself to release etc), am open to it for sure. And it was really cool to experience it in that first style I tried. And I think that's where it lies. We can all discuss ad nauseum and talk about it, but it defeats the purpose of what it is, and it's only realised through experience, and of course being open to it is key (no pun intended XD). Definitely it's more a felt thing, and I'd love to explore it more. Even basic qigong I'd love to look into, and I do have a book and some vids with a few exercises, but not sure if it's really the best way to learn it.

That's awesome you guys explored that in Hapkido, and that link was fascinating. The only vague exposure I had within Kyokushin was being taught when stepping forward in zenkutsu dachi, to drive forward from the hara and to focus your energy in there to propel you forward (rather than hunching forward, compromising your posture etc).

It's been a really revealing journey so far, and I'm finding myself really excited to train, learn and also to see what martial art I try next. I'm still going to train in TKD for 2 or 3 more weeks then move on, thanks for your kind words .


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## _Simon_

Okay! Am all finished up with my trial in Taekwondo! Spent a full month training with them (donning the ol white belt was fun  ). Was funny, I wore the dobok top the instructor lent me, my old Go Kan Ryu karate pants, and my Kyokushin white belt. (Does that..... make me a... mixed martial artist? *gasp*)

Anyway...

My thoughts?

...

Loved it.

Had a blast and I really enjoyed my time with them. The instructor was a really cool guy, just oozing with his love for martial arts and a patient and guiding teacher. Quite firm with the kids hehe but I could understand why at times.

Learnt a bit about how they do things in TKD (well this club anyways), fighting stance is more side on, definitely more kicks, but I love how fluid and relaxed they emphasised you to be. And to extend your kick out more rather than keeping it all bundled up. I actually don't recall us throwing a single punch in any of the classes though, although there were many things we didn't have time to cover, so I'm sure they do get trained at some stage. Also didn't get to do patterns, or a general basics techniques class. That's the thing, as there are many classes on during the week, he has to write up a schedule with different themes for each class, and it's hard to do everything with everyone.

But we worked on target training, footwork and movement, leg conditioning exercises (my hips/glutes are STILL sore from that on Monday...), kicks and linking combinations, did quite a bit of self defense, bit of sparring and reaction drills.

I really enjoyed the training and it was great to change up how I did things and open up to different approaches. It did maybe feel more like a physical style, and more wide rather than deep. I don't know if this makes sense... but truly I don't know 100% what I'm looking for. The style has a lot of material to cover, which we did certainly work on in detail, but the hour class flies by and sometimes it's tricky to work on alot of stuff. So wide in terms of alot of material, even though we worked in depth on it, it felt like it was very much physical/technique focused (as opposed to... I don't know, but it didn't feel as though it addressed anything deeper. Kyokushin definitely had that deeper element within the training, even though it was rarely talked about).

Just want to honestly assess the places I train and look at all parts I was exposed to (or not). Then again, it was only a month, so not enough to get a full handle on it, but I'm glad I did the full month, and more importantly was healthy enough to do so even with some very challenging and painful times...

I could absolutely see myself training here though, so it's at the top of the list for sure.

Now onwards! There's a karate club that I've got my eye on that I'm going to try next... they have a full time dojo too. It's one that has themed timetable of classes, so will see how it goes.

Feeling very good about things


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## oftheherd1

Look forward to hearing of your further exploits.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Any idea how many styles/places you're going to check out?

Of course, you may have 5 planned out, then go to the next dojo, immediately fall in love and just stop there.


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## _Simon_

kempodisciple said:


> Any idea how many styles/places you're going to check out?
> 
> Of course, you may have 5 planned out, then go to the next dojo, immediately fall in love and just stop there.


Yeah I've got a list of ones I'm gonna check out, I think there are about 4 or 5 all up. There are alot more than that around here, but I know some I have just no interest in (grappling/submission arts I've never been drawn to).

But yep absolutely right, if I find one that I absolutely love, I can't see why I'd keep looking haha. And I honestly loved the TKD training, the instructor, and the dojang, but not 100% sure yet. It's certainly at the top of the list for now , but I know karate has always had a special place in my heart so I'll do myself a service by checking them out too.


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## _Simon_

And I also just this morning checked out one of the inter-club tournaments that the TKD club holds, and I could definitely see myself competing in it. It looked awesome and like alot of fun. So wanted to just jump in the ring haha..


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## _Simon_

Just sat in on a new karate dojo tonight, a fulltime dojo that looks awesome. They're a style that used to be Seido Juku, but have since moved on to form their own style whilst keeping alot of syllabus and technique. So it's like a derivative of a derivative of a derivative or something haha!

Really nice instructor, very attentive to the students, and very similar technique and kata to Kyokushin so I'd fit in nicely! They still have alot of practical partner drills, but there's definitely a spiritual vibe to the dojo and also the instructor, which really gels with me .

Gonna start next week (same deal, trial for a month, train two times a week) and see how we go! They have a full timetable with different themed classes, but I'd be doing only the senior basics ones anyway, so that takes care of the concerns from my other thread.

Another adventure...


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## _Simon_

Had my first session today at the new dojo, was good fun. Very similar in technique to what I'm used to but a few differences to adapt to, did some basics (moreso blocks focused), ido geiko, kata (Taikyoku ichi + san, Pinan ichi + ni), then partnered up for some counter-attack work and self defense stuff. I liked the emphasis on staying relaxed and using the hips more. Am used to chambering the hand with the prearranged stuff but it was cool how kept hands up in cover and not doing the traditional long stance etc.

Only thing is classes are only 45 minutes... which doesn't feel overly long... I guess because they're in blocks and themes and perhaps that suits best, but yeah I definitely like longer classes... will see how it goes anyways. If I enjoy the classes that much then it won't really matter.


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## _Simon_

Hmm have been invited to grade on Saturday if I'm interested! I've only done 3 classes (tomorrow will be my 4th) but the head instructor said because of my prior experience he's happy for me to attend.

To be honest I know it'd be a breeze (techniques are pretty much identical, just have had to learn some self defense sequences), but not sure if it's worth it... am only training for a month here to trial it out, and I was actually planning on heading in to watch the grading anyway and see how it's run.

I may just watch and see how it goes.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

_Simon_ said:


> Hmm have been invited to grade on Saturday if I'm interested! I've only done 3 classes (tomorrow will be my 4th) but the head instructor said because of my prior experience he's happy for me to attend.
> 
> To be honest I know it'd be a breeze (techniques are pretty much identical, just have had to learn some self defense sequences), but not sure if it's worth it... am only training for a month here to trial it out, and I was actually planning on heading in to watch the grading anyway and see how it's run.
> 
> I may just watch and see how it goes.


The grading may be a good idea. Based on your experience, it could put you at the appropriate level for learning, rather than having you start with things you already know.

Ordinarily I wouldn't recommend that, but since this is just one of many styles you're trying it, IMO it would be more useful to get the experience of learning new material, rather than going through the motions for material you already know/focusing on slight changes to that material.


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## _Simon_

kempodisciple said:


> The grading may be a good idea. Based on your experience, it could put you at the appropriate level for learning, rather than having you start with things you already know.
> 
> Ordinarily I wouldn't recommend that, but since this is just one of many styles you're trying it, IMO it would be more useful to get the experience of learning new material, rather than going through the motions for material you already know/focusing on slight changes to that material.


Hmm... you know what you have a great point...

Yeah it still feels bizarre to grade after 4 classes but I have found myself glancing at the higher grades to see what they're doing when the class is broken up into groups (Normally I'm 100% focused on what we're working on, but in this case I wanted to see what they were learning and working on). So it would be nice to be working on other stuff. I'm all for being patient of course, but just to get a gist of what the training will be like.

I'll have a ponder... also feels weird to grade even though I've asked the instructor if I could train with them for only a month. Don't wanna encroach! But might chat with instructor about it.

Thanks for that, didn't think of that


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## _Simon_

.... so! It looks like I'm grading on Saturday haha!

Had a chat with the instructor after class and he pretty much said exactly what you said @kempodisciple, would be a good opportunity to broaden my learning a bit more closer to my current skill level etc, give me the opportunity to look at stuff higher than white belt. He said the white belt grading isn't overly taxing, just basic technique and so on, first kata, the first two self defense sequences, no sparring at all.

And yeah it'll be easy enough as I know all the material, just concerned more with pelvic stuff which had been quite bad of late, but I told him that and he honestly thinks I'll be fine during it.

Golly gosh!


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## _Simon_

... nope, did not end up grading, nor training at ALL this week due to quite a nasty cold that's lasted a week now... ugh...

I think it's definitely a sign that I was pushing things a bit hard and taking on too much, may have to scale things down a bit..


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## Buka

Make sure you keep your diet strong. And get some sleep, bro.


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## _Simon_

Buka said:


> Make sure you keep your diet strong. And get some sleep, bro.


Thanks mate will do, the timing of it all makes sense.. just trying to take it easy. I get it, universe .


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## _Simon_

Just an update...

Have been training for 3 weeks at this new place, it's been okay.. I just don't think I've fallen in love with it if I'm being honest...

It almost looks great on paper reasons for me training here, but I dunno, I haven't really vibed with it. The people are friendly, everyone is respectful, technique is similar to what I'm used, it seems they do alot, aLOT of these partnered self defense sequences. Every class we've gone through them and spent a great deal of time on them, and while those looking purely for self defense would benefit, I'm just not haha, and find it's just not really something I want to dedicate alot of time to. It's like every class has been mostly the same with not a great deal of variety, and working on solely curriculum stuff (in which there are a lot of those sequences, takedowns etc), which of course does makes sense, that's what you're there to learn and train.

Am I the only one who isn't that interested in takedowns, locks etc? Have been reflecting, I know I'm more drawn to the deeper spiritual aspects of MA, the focus, discipline, meditative aspects, physical mastery, technique... perhaps it's moreso the forging of the body into that embodiment of speed, power, ease, technically-brilliant ideal that I'm more drawn to.

Before I started I honestly thought this would be the place I end up at... The teacher is a really great instructor and martial artist, and he's a machine in terms of power and flow and technique, and I greatly respect him.

I did sit in and watch their sparring class too tonight, and man they go pretty hard... reminded me of Kyokushin days, only these guys had more padding. Really not sure the body could withstand that intensity of sparring either... and whether I want to go down the road of killing myself in training yet again...


Like I said earlier, I truly do not know what I'm looking for in a style/dojo... I guess I'll know when I know?

Still 1 week left here then I shall move upward and onward... :s


Signing out, lost and confused.....


----------



## JR 137

Sometimes, you just have to figure out what you don’t want before you can figure out what you do actually want. 

Happens to me all the time in pubs and restaurants


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> Sometimes, you just have to figure out what you don’t want before you can figure out what you do actually want.
> 
> Happens to me all the time in pubs and restaurants


Hahaha... yeah good point actually, quite true . It may just be a process huh


----------



## _Simon_

Just had my last session at the karate dojo. I've enjoyed my time there to a certain degree, but in another I know I haven't fallen in love with it. Have learned alot there, but time to move on. A bit disappointed that this wasn't the one (only because I had my expectations at the start that it may be haha, so that's on me), but even if I don't find something too local, I'm thinking of branching out a bit wider, even if it's 30mins or so to get there.

It's strange and interesting, I know what really clicks moreso feeling-wise and when I can feel what's not clicking, so it's nice to really listen and get in tune with that intuitive feel that I'd always struggled with for many years.

Next adventure in a few weeks.... [emoji1625][emoji109]


----------



## _Simon_

Not sure when I can try a new style, as a few changes happening job wise, but just a solid 45min session of kihon/basics at home.

Really focused in this session to do all my techniques with a more relaxed nature (like Sensei Rick Hotton teaches, ps. am a BIG fan): relaxed before, tension upon completion, and relaxation straight after. Literally overemphasising it even to floppy arms after I did them! It felt so nice and I felt much less drained, as my whole body was responding to it. And I did 20 of each technique which I hadn't done in ages, and felt really good afterwards!

Even tried moving in zenkutsu dachi doing lunge and reverse punches and trying to feel my body relax through the movement rather than forcing a big push and big step. Stopping in between techniques to bounce at the knees a bit to feel the groundedness.

Gonna explore this much more, moving and training much more naturally without excess tension. Even if I went out of my rigid sanchin dachi stance slightly I just sort of let it happen, and still focused on that connection with the ground. Learned alot this session .


----------



## _Simon_

Has been a little while, but have been letting my ankle heal up a bit (sprained), and also a change of employment circumstances XD, but I thought screw it, so I called up the next place on my list to try out: Tang Soo Tao!

They're literally just around the corner from me, instructor seemed nice enough, am gonna sit in and watch a class on Monday.


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Okay... the time has come!
> 
> I'm finally (after much, much hesitation and deliberation haha..) enquiring about new styles, as I'm honestly just itching to get back into dojo training.. and feel mostly ready health-wise.
> 
> It's been an incredibly rough, painful, hellish and emotional 8 months or so.. and I still have a bit to go in terms of recovery, but I feel ready enough to try getting into training properly again. And it really marks a big step for me, as I definitely wasn't in this position a little while ago.
> 
> So the plan is to try a style for about a month or so to get the feel of it and see if it clicks with me. Very different to how I decided before, which was just training because I 'felt like I should', out of obligation almost. So suffice it to say, I'm very excited .
> 
> I've gotten a call back from a karate dojo just around the corner from me, I asked if i can sit in and watch and they said people tend to get more out of just giving it a go, so they invited me to train so looks like I'm training!
> 
> It sounds really awesome, it's a small dojo, and has gone through a few changes of style affiliation over time, and I think they operate more independently now, originally he trained in Kyokushin (and personally graded to Shodan under Sosai Oyama!), then Ashihara, Shintaiikudo, and taught in all of these, now with all his experience has organically sort of formed his own style, which incorporates all his previous styles plus including some Aikido principles as well (which he teaches as well).
> 
> Definitely sounds more up my alley, I'm really excited



Great to hear. Keep us in the loop.


----------



## _Simon_

Visited the Tang Soo dojang tonight, instructor seemed a really nice guy, and I enjoyed watching the class.

Most of it was taken by the assistant instructor (a younger 2nd dan, but a very good instructor), and it was mainly younger people training (oldest was probably 18 maybe?). I know alot of people would absolutely not be a fan of the one-step sparring sequences they did.. but I was impressed with alot of the higher grades technique.

I don't know too much about Tang Soo, but it seems like a cool blend. Apparently the hard kicking techniques from MDK/Taekkyon, and soft techniques from Chinese arts. I didn't really see the Chinese influence, it definitely looked more like karate hand techniques though (Shotokan influence I heard too..).

Am gonna organise an intro class for next Friday and give it a go


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Has been a little while, but have been letting my ankle heal up a bit (sprained), and also a change of employment circumstances XD, but I thought screw it, so I called up the next place on my list to try out: Tang Soo Tao!
> 
> They're literally just around the corner from me, instructor seemed nice enough, am gonna sit in and watch a class on Monday.


Let us know what you see and think. Checking out a new potential school can be a lot of fun.



_Simon_ said:


> Visited the Tang Soo dojang tonight, instructor seemed a really nice guy, and I enjoyed watching the class.
> 
> Most of it was taken by the assistant instructor (a younger 2nd dan, but a very good instructor), and it was mainly younger people training (oldest was probably 18 maybe?). I know alot of people would absolutely not be a fan of the one-step sparring sequences they did.. but I was impressed with alot of the higher grades technique.
> 
> I don't know too much about Tang Soo, but it seems like a cool blend. Apparently the hard kicking techniques from MDK/Taekkyon, and soft techniques from Chinese arts. I didn't really see the Chinese influence, it definitely looked more like karate hand techniques though (Shotokan influence I heard too..).
> 
> Am gonna organise an intro class for next Friday and give it a go



Hmm...clearly either you didn't wait until Monday, or I'm confused about days of the week. Or you're in a vastly different time zone. Or all of that??

Anyway, glad you saw something that looked interesting. Hope the first classes keep that feeling going for ya.


----------



## Dirty Dog

_Simon_ said:


> I don't know too much about Tang Soo, but it seems like a cool blend. Apparently the hard kicking techniques from MDK/Taekkyon, and soft techniques from Chinese arts. I didn't really see the Chinese influence, it definitely looked more like karate hand techniques though (Shotokan influence I heard too..).
> 
> Am gonna organise an intro class for next Friday and give it a go



For starters, it's Tang Soo Do, not Tang Soo. 
There are no kicking techniques from Taekkyon, because Taekkyon is a dead art.
Tang Soo Do is the branch of the Moo Duk Kwan that split from GM HWANG, Kee during the time after he left the unification movement but before he changed the name to Soo Bahk Do.
It's basically Shotokan karate as taught by GM HWANG. It uses the same kata as Shotokan, though I believe that they're taught in a different order (this may be incorrect, as I am going from memory, and we all know how that works...).
As for Chinese influences... GM HWANG reportedly had some training in Northern Chinese styles, but I've never really seen any evidence of this.


----------



## Hanzou

Simon, have you ever considered a grappling style like Judo, Bjj, or even Aikido? The systems you're practicing are actually quite similar to each other. Maybe you'd like something different?


----------



## oftheherd1

Hanzou said:


> Simon, have you ever considered a grappling style like Judo, Bjj, or even Aikido? The systems you're practicing are actually quite similar to each other. Maybe you'd like something different?



While I also think grappling styles have a place in MA, one needs to examine closely what styles someone may recommend, as to reason the person recommends a particular style, and what are the characteristics of a style that you would like. 

For example, there is a person on MT (I'm trying to remember the name ) who always recommends BJJ as if there is nothing else worth discussing.  Me on the other hand, I very often recommend Hapkido.  I have the best of reasons so I don't need to discuss good reasons.  

Seriously, we all have our preferences, and may sometimes have trouble articulating why we feel one art, especially grappling arts, may be better than others.  You also need to know what you are looking for in an art.  The Hapkido I studied was defense oriented in that we would normally wait until we were attacked and respond with the intent to cause pain or injury, intending to prevent further attacks.  Whereas my observations have been that Aikido normally doesn't intend to injure (but understands that may be a consequence of a defensive technique) but rather defend in a way that prevents injury to the practitioner, and waits until the attacker gets tired of being thrown around and quits attacking.  Very different concepts.  You need to know which one you can most easily find comfort with.  And within Hapkido or other grappling arts you may still find schools that don't agree with what I say and teach a different method of defense.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Hanzou

oftheherd1 said:


> While I also think grappling styles have a place in MA, one needs to examine closely what styles someone may recommend, as to reason the person recommends a particular style, and what are the characteristics of a style that you would like.
> 
> For example, there is a person on MT (I'm trying to remember the name ) who always recommends BJJ as if there is nothing else worth discussing.  Me on the other hand, I very often recommend Hapkido.  I have the best of reasons so I don't need to discuss good reasons.
> 
> Seriously, we all have our preferences, and may sometimes have trouble articulating why we feel one art, especially grappling arts, may be better than others.  You also need to know what you are looking for in an art.  The Hapkido I studied was defense oriented in that we would normally wait until we were attacked and respond with the intent to cause pain or injury, intending to prevent further attacks.  Whereas my observations have been that Aikido normally doesn't intend to injure (but understands that may be a consequence of a defensive technique) but rather defend in a way that prevents injury to the practitioner, and waits until the attacker gets tired of being thrown around and quits attacking.  Very different concepts.  You need to know which one you can most easily find comfort with.  And within Hapkido or other grappling arts you may still find schools that don't agree with what I say and teach a different method of defense.
> 
> Hope that helps.



The only reason I didn't recommend Hapkido is that there's such a range in quality of instruction (some of which have dubious origins), and overall quality control in that particular art isn't the best. Some instructors literally combine TKD with Aikido and call it Hapkido.  You simply have a higher chance of receiving quality instruction in a Bjj, Judo, or Aikido school.


----------



## oftheherd1

Hanzou said:


> The only reason I didn't recommend Hapkido is that there's such a range in quality of instruction (some of which have dubious origins), and overall quality control in that particular art isn't the best. Some instructors literally combine TKD with Aikido and call it Hapkido.



 I was intending to be facetious in the second paragraph.  I must not have carried that over well.  

I can't really comment on other Hapkido schools and/or instructors though, only the Hapkido I studied.  That's why when I comment on it, I usually say "in the Hapkido I studied."

But I thought that was a problem with most martial arts.  So you may be painting with too large a brush.  Do those things occur in the martial art you study, I forget, what was it?


----------



## Hanzou

oftheherd1 said:


> I was intending to be facetious in the second paragraph.  I must not have carried that over well.
> 
> I can't really comment on other Hapkido schools and/or instructors though, only the Hapkido I studied.  That's why when I comment on it, I usually say "in the Hapkido I studied."
> 
> But I thought that was a problem with most martial arts.  So you may be painting with too large a brush.  Do those things occur in the martial art you study, I forget, what was it?



Due to their highly competitive nature, it's much harder for Judo and BJJ to get away with BS.


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Visited the Tang Soo dojang tonight, instructor seemed a really nice guy, and I enjoyed watching the class.
> 
> Most of it was taken by the assistant instructor (a younger 2nd dan, but a very good instructor), and it was mainly younger people training (oldest was probably 18 maybe?). I know alot of people would absolutely not be a fan of the one-step sparring sequences they did.. but I was impressed with alot of the higher grades technique.
> 
> I don't know too much about Tang Soo, but it seems like a cool blend. Apparently the hard kicking techniques from MDK/Taekkyon, and soft techniques from Chinese arts. I didn't really see the Chinese influence, it definitely looked more like karate hand techniques though (Shotokan influence I heard too..).
> 
> Am gonna organise an intro class for next Friday and give it a go


It is good to hear TSD is alive and well in Australia. Let us know how it goes.


----------



## dvcochran

Dirty Dog said:


> For starters, it's Tang Soo Do, not Tang Soo.
> There are no kicking techniques from Taekkyon, because Taekkyon is a dead art.
> Tang Soo Do is the branch of the Moo Duk Kwan that split from GM HWANG, Kee during the time after he left the unification movement but before he changed the name to Soo Bahk Do.
> It's basically Shotokan karate as taught by GM HWANG. It uses the same kata as Shotokan, though I believe that they're taught in a different order (this may be incorrect, as I am going from memory, and we all know how that works...).
> As for Chinese influences... GM HWANG reportedly had some training in Northern Chinese styles, but I've never really seen any evidence of this.


I am pretty sure the first two pinon forms are the same. The others are in a different order. And I have seen them taught slightly different.


----------



## dvcochran

Hanzou said:


> The only reason I didn't recommend Hapkido is that there's such a range in quality of instruction (some of which have dubious origins), and overall quality control in that particular art isn't the best. Some instructors literally combine TKD with Aikido and call it Hapkido.  You simply have a higher chance of receiving quality instruction in a Bjj, Judo, or Aikido school.



I have got to disagree there. By the sheer number of dojo/dojangs alone the numbers get skewed. That is always one of the go to arguments used against Korean arts in general. To my knowledge there has never been an actual study that says there are more bad schools/instructors in one style vs. other styles based on the number of schools per style. Of course there are going to be more bad, and good instructor in the Korean arts simply because there are so many more of them. Duh. 
Saturation can do some weird things in analytics. One of the interesting things it can uncover is in quality control. At about 70% repeatability, if a high value product is sold in a given area, the competitive products around it will increase in quality. In other words, a good school most often breeds better schools around it. Conversely, the negative product in the same scenario does not breed the equal effect. It either moves into a lower tier across all ranges or just goes away. Whew! 
Bad it bad, it has nothing to do with style. When you factor out emotions and opinion it is easier to measure quality. That said, how do you take the emotion out of MA,s? Should never be done so the argument will continue. However, when recommending your style when not solicited, that falls into giving a bad or inappropriate opinion. Yea, I just gave my opinion.


----------



## Hanzou

dvcochran said:


> I have got to disagree there. By the sheer number of dojo/dojangs alone the numbers get skewed. That is always one of the go to arguments used against Korean arts in general. To my knowledge there has never been an actual study that says there are more bad schools/instructors in one style vs. other styles based on the number of schools per style. Of course there are going to be more bad, and good instructor in the Korean arts simply because there are so many more of them. Duh.



Well, not necessarily. 

There's two issues with Hapkido: Historical issues, and Modern issues.

The historical issues are two fold: The founder's account of where he learned his art is highly questionable. A Hapkido practitioner assassinated a president of South Korea so the are got a bad rap and was intentionally watered down in Korea.

The modern issues are that there's multiple types of Hapkido, there's a lack of Hapkido in combat sports, some TKD instructors magically became Hapkido instructors in the 90s and 2000s, and some of the modern claims of some practitioners are dubious.

And all of that leads to quality control issues.


----------



## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> I am pretty sure the first two pinon forms are the same. The others are in a different order. And I have seen them taught slightly different.


The first 2 Pinan forms’ order is usually what’s changed. 1 is sometimes called 2, 2 sometimes 1, and a few places will teach 2 before 1. 3-5 aren’t changed nor debated. Not in any karate that I’ve seen anyway.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> The historical issues are two fold: The founder's account of where he learned his art is highly questionable.


I've never found issues with origin to be significant to an art. It wouldn't matter (from a functional standpoint) if he'd made up the entire origin story.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> I've never found issues with origin to be significant to an art. It wouldn't matter (from a functional standpoint) if he'd made up the entire origin story.



The claim is that the founder learned Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu from Sokaku, when the evidence points to him actually learning Aikido from Ueshiba.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> The claim is that the founder learned Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu from Sokaku, when the evidence points to him actually learning Aikido from Ueshiba.


I'm aware of the issue. I just don't see it as much of an issue. It might make me question training with that individual (why would I train with someone who I think is lying to me), but wouldn't necessarily affect my opinion of the art or others in it.


----------



## oftheherd1

Hanzou said:


> Well, not necessarily.
> 
> There's two issues with Hapkido: Historical issues, and Modern issues.
> 
> The historical issues are two fold: The founder's account of where he learned his art is highly questionable. A Hapkido practitioner assassinated a president of South Korea so the are got a bad rap and was intentionally watered down in Korea.
> 
> The modern issues are that there's multiple types of Hapkido, there's a lack of Hapkido in combat sports, some TKD instructors magically became Hapkido instructors in the 90s and 2000s, and some of the modern claims of some practitioners are dubious.
> 
> And all of that leads to quality control issues.



DJN Choi's account has been supported and denied.with equal vigor.  But clearly he learned his art somewhere.and knew it before he returned to Korea.  So I don't think you have any credibility in saying his account is "highly questionable."  Japanese policy of putting down Koreans or claiming everything Korean as their own is not "highly questionable" for that matter. 

I don't know if the KCIA director was a Hapkido practitioner or not, as that was not a topic in the news in the aftermath of the assassination of Pak Chung Hee (no other Korean president I know of has ever been assassinated).  But considering the rivalry between other, more Korean MA at the time, and the fact that Hapkido has long been a preferred MA for Korean security forces, he may have been.  I remember there was some problem, and the support of Chun Doo-Hwan's brother after Chun Doo_Hwan became president.was somehow part of the issue.  But not knowing anything more, I again suspect MA rivalry.  After all, Pak Chung Hee was shot, not Hapkidoed to death.

"...multiple types of Hapkido?"  How many "types" of other Korean arts are there?  How many types of Karate or BJJ?  There is indeed a lack of Hapkido combat sports.  If you are the expert on Hapkido you are setting yourself up to be, that should be no surprise.  But I suppose it could be turned in to that if all the worthwhile techniques could be stripped out by rules to prevent injury.  But would it really be Hapkido after that?  The fact that many other Korean MA instructors magically become Hapkido instructors should tell you something about the respect Hapkido has among other Korean MA.  So many want to be Hapkido BB/instructors, they just don't want to spend the years studying it to be knowlegeable to teach it.  What would you have me say?


----------



## oftheherd1

Hanzou said:


> The claim is that the founder learned Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu from Sokaku, when the evidence points to him actually learning Aikido from Ueshiba.



In my post above, I allude to the Japanese culture not allowing anything worthwhile to be of anything other than Japanese invention.  Would you think family pride might have caused someone in the family to remove DJN Choi's name from the roles.  Especially if there was any anger over him leaving Japan for Korea?  Mind you, I don't know that anything like that happened, but Japanese pride and prejudice against Korea is no secret.  But Aikido?  Where did that come from?  

Early in my training, I once mentioned to my GM that I wondered if Hapkido and Aikido had any similarities.  He rebuffed that.  And as I progressed in my learning of Hapkido, I can see they are very different, no matter that both have roots in Daito-Ryu.  But that doesn't mean Hapkido can from study of Aikido.  If you can show that, from credible sources, I would be interested in that information.

What has caused your hatred of Hapkido?


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> I'm aware of the issue. I just don't see it as much of an issue. It might make me question training with that individual (why would I train with someone who I think is lying to me), but wouldn't necessarily affect my opinion of the art or others in it.



Wouldn't a style derived from Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu be fundamentally different than a style derived from TKD and Aikido?


----------



## JR 137

Hanzou said:


> Wouldn't a style derived from Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu be fundamentally different than a style derived from TKD and Aikido?


What does it matter if it came From Daito Ryu, Aikido, or Mars? So long as the techniques are effective and reliable, I couldn’t care less where they originated. The origin is trivial. What matters is what’s going on in the here and now on the floor. Crap from the most distinguished person is still crap; effective stuff from Wile E Coyote is still effective. The history is mostly useless back story. It can make you feel good about what you’re doing, but feeling good about it ain’t going to save your a$$ when you need it to.


----------



## Hanzou

oftheherd1 said:


> What has caused your hatred of Hapkido?



Hatred? No.

Initially Hapkido schools were doing Aikido-style wrist locks and never discussed ground fighting. However with the growth of combat sports and Bjj, we now have stuff like this;










Both of these examples are terrible, but I'm sure both of these examples come from respectable Hapkido organizations correct? I certainly enjoyed the "Aikijutsu" method of submitting someone from Guard.... 

It would appear that Hapkido adopts whatever is popular at the time and adopts it into their art, which is why I tend to believe that the founder pulled his stuff from Aikido over Aikijutsu.

I have no problem cross-training and bringing new arts into your system, but give credit where credit is due.


----------



## oftheherd1

gpseymour said:


> I'm aware of the issue. I just don't see it as much of an issue. It might make me question training with that individual (why would I train with someone who I think is lying to me), but wouldn't necessarily affect my opinion of the art or others in it.



I see your point, but I don't know of any time my GM lied to me, and in fact am quite sure he never did.  I would worry about that from a teacher I knew lied to me, always wondering what else he might be telling me that were lies; such as "this strike is good to stop an opponent," but not telling me it is a likely death hit.


----------



## oftheherd1

Hanzou said:


> Wouldn't a style derived from Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu be fundamentally different than a style derived from TKD and Aikido?



I think you can quit talking about Hapkido as being derived from any other Korean art; too much difference in method and philosophy.  Actually, the same for Aikdo.



Hanzou said:


> Hatred? No.
> 
> Initially Hapkido schools were doing Aikido-style wrist locks and never discussed ground fighting. However with the growth of combat sports and Bjj, we now have stuff like this;



Wow!  how old are you?  You have seen things I have never seen nor even heard of.  Unless ou are talking about things Hapkido and Aikido share due to their lineage; both being from Daito-Ryu.  Is that what you meant?  Wouldn't seem to be pertain much to your argument though.
...


Hanzou said:


> Both of these examples are terrible, but I'm sure both of these examples come from respectable Hapkido organizations correct? I certainly enjoyed the "Aikijutsu" method of submitting someone from Guard....
> 
> I have no idea if either of those schools are legitimate or not.  As I said, I can only talk about the Hapkido I studied.
> 
> 
> 
> Hanzou said:
> 
> 
> 
> It would appear that Hapkido adopts whatever is popular at the time and adopts it into their art, which is why I tend to believe that the founder pulled his stuff from Aikido over Aikijutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What an outlandish statement.  Where in the world do you come up with those things?  Do you really have so much time studying Hapkido that you can be such an expert on its history and methods?  Why don't I think that is so?
> 
> As to the videos, I agree the first looks more like what I would expect from BJJ or some such.  The second looks like Hapkido techniques I learned to defend myself from being on the ground  and getting back on my feet. In the Hapkido I studied, we don't like to be on the ground unless our opponent is under us and we have an elbow in his back or are hyper extending his knee joint, or are about to strike him, or some  other such favorable thing..
> 
> 
> 
> Hanzou said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no problem cross-training and bringing new arts into your system, but give credit where credit is due.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What does cross training have to do with it?  Or do you mean your art has adopted some Hapkido techniques?
Click to expand...


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Wouldn't a style derived from Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu be fundamentally different than a style derived from TKD and Aikido?


Not necessarily. Early Aikido was much more similar to Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. In fact, there is a vague period when the names seem to overlap in Ueshiba's art. So, TKD+Aikido blended and reformatted could look similar to TKD+Daito-ryu blended and reformatted. It would probably depend more on which period of Aikido (and which senior students), compared to which depth of Daito-ryu (I've been told by folks within Daito-ryu that Aikido appears a shallower approach to aiki, so to speak).


----------



## Hanzou

oftheherd1 said:


> Wow!  how old are you?  You have seen things I have never seen nor even heard of.  Unless ou are talking about things Hapkido and Aikido share due to their lineage; both being from Daito-Ryu.  Is that what you meant?  Wouldn't seem to be pertain much to your argument though.
> ...



I'm merely stating that I don't recall Hapkido doing ground fighting back in the day, now I'm seeing multiple examples of them doing it (poorly) and I'm wondering where that impetus is coming from.



> What an outlandish statement. Where in the world do you come up with those things? Do you really have so much time studying Hapkido that you can be such an expert on its history and methods? Why don't I think that is so?
> 
> As to the videos, I agree the first looks more like what I would expect from BJJ or some such. The second looks like Hapkido techniques I learned to defend myself from being on the ground and getting back on my feet. In the Hapkido I studied, we don't like to be on the ground unless our opponent is under us and we have an elbow in his back or are hyper extending his knee joint, or are about to strike him, or some other such favorable thing..



If that's what you learned, I would strongly recommend attending a few Bjj classes and learn how to actually fight from the guard position. That vid was bad on multiple levels.



> What does cross training have to do with it? Or do you mean your art has adopted some Hapkido techniques?



I'm saying that if you're pulling techniques from BJJ or other MAs, you should acknowledge that you're doing it instead of pretending that that stuff is native to the system in question.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> Not necessarily. Early Aikido was much more similar to Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. In fact, there is a vague period when the names seem to overlap in Ueshiba's art. So, TKD+Aikido blended and reformatted could look similar to TKD+Daito-ryu blended and reformatted. It would probably depend more on which period of Aikido (and which senior students), compared to which depth of Daito-ryu (I've been told by folks within Daito-ryu that Aikido appears a shallower approach to aiki, so to speak).



Is ground grappling and the guard part of traditional Daito-Ryu?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> I'm merely stating that I don't recall Hapkido doing ground fighting back in the day, now I'm seeing multiple examples of them doing it (poorly) and I'm wondering where that impetus is coming from.


Perhaps they've had it a long time, and are now making it more prominent. That is happening inside NGA. It has always had some (pretty lame) ground work, and some of the instructors are working to both extend and improve that. I doubt anyone outside actual NGA practitioners had ever seen it prior to the last decade or so, because it wouldn't have been likely to show up in videos or demos.



Hanzou said:


> I'm saying that if you're pulling techniques from BJJ or other MAs, you should acknowledge that you're doing it instead of pretending that that stuff is native to the system in question.


What kind of acknowledgement. I pull techniques from a lot of places (sometimes as entire techniques, sometimes as other ways of doing what I already know). I tend to mention the source, but not in any systematic way - just as a matter of explaining the technique. Probably doesn't happen anything like every time I teach them. Probably doesn't in any art.



Hanzou said:


> Is ground grappling and the guard part of traditional Daito-Ryu?


I don't know. It might be, though it wouldn't be anything like you'd see in BJJ - much simpler, and mostly less effective, I'd expect, if it existed. I don't know if the ground work in NGA came directly from Daito-ryu, from our alleged Judo roots, or was introduced later by one of the senior instructors.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> Perhaps they've had it a long time, and are now making it more prominent. That is happening inside NGA. It has always had some (pretty lame) ground work, and some of the instructors are working to both extend and improve that. I doubt anyone outside actual NGA practitioners had ever seen it prior to the last decade or so, because it wouldn't have been likely to show up in videos or demos.



I'd be open for that possibility if the ground fighting emerging didn't look like a poor version of Bjj. It's literally the same techniques, but its modified to be "deadly".




> What kind of acknowledgement. I pull techniques from a lot of places (sometimes as entire techniques, sometimes as other ways of doing what I already know). I tend to mention the source, but not in any systematic way - just as a matter of explaining the technique. Probably doesn't happen anything like every time I teach them. Probably doesn't in any art.



Something like this would be suitable:






Just mention where you got the technique from. Simple.




> I don't know. It might be, though it wouldn't be anything like you'd see in BJJ - much simpler, and mostly less effective, I'd expect, if it existed. I don't know if the ground work in NGA came directly from Daito-ryu, from our alleged Judo roots, or was introduced later by one of the senior instructors.



Well that's the problem here; That Hapkido ground fighting is VERY similar to Bjj ground fighting, just executed in a much worse way.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> I'd be open for that possibility if the ground fighting emerging didn't look like a poor version of Bjj. It's literally the same techniques, but its modified to be "deadly".


The ground work (sweeps from mount) in NGA would fit that exact description ("poor version of Bjj"). And it was there 30 years ago, long before I'd ever heard of BJJ. In the case of NGA, it's not even "more deadly" - just "not as good". 




> Something like this would be suitable:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just mention where you got the technique from. Simple.


My point is, how often, and for how long? When does a technique become part of the system? I wouldn't expect one of my students to necessarily remember where I told them a technique came from. To them, it's all NGA. And I might forget to give credit from time to time, especially if I'm talking to a group that includes people I've told before.



> Well that's the problem here; That Hapkido ground fighting is VERY similar to Bjj ground fighting, just executed in a much worse way.


And it is most likely picked up from BJJ. The picking up might have started 20 years ago, though, so what you see there might be 2nd generation - so those folks might just think of it as HKD.


----------



## DaveB

_Simon_ said:


> Just an update...
> 
> Have been training for 3 weeks at this new place, it's been okay.. I just don't think I've fallen in love with it if I'm being honest...
> 
> It almost looks great on paper reasons for me training here, but I dunno, I haven't really vibed with it. The people are friendly, everyone is respectful, technique is similar to what I'm used, it seems they do alot, aLOT of these partnered self defense sequences. Every class we've gone through them and spent a great deal of time on them, and while those looking purely for self defense would benefit, I'm just not haha, and find it's just not really something I want to dedicate alot of time to. It's like every class has been mostly the same with not a great deal of variety, and working on solely curriculum stuff (in which there are a lot of those sequences, takedowns etc), which of course does makes sense, that's what you're there to learn and train.
> 
> Am I the only one who isn't that interested in takedowns, locks etc? Have been reflecting, I know I'm more drawn to the deeper spiritual aspects of MA, the focus, discipline, meditative aspects, physical mastery, technique... perhaps it's moreso the forging of the body into that embodiment of speed, power, ease, technically-brilliant ideal that I'm more drawn to.
> 
> Before I started I honestly thought this would be the place I end up at... The teacher is a really great instructor and martial artist, and he's a machine in terms of power and flow and technique, and I greatly respect him.
> 
> I did sit in and watch their sparring class too tonight, and man they go pretty hard... reminded me of Kyokushin days, only these guys had more padding. Really not sure the body could withstand that intensity of sparring either... and whether I want to go down the road of killing myself in training yet again...
> 
> 
> Like I said earlier, I truly do not know what I'm looking for in a style/dojo... I guess I'll know when I know?
> 
> Still 1 week left here then I shall move upward and onward... :s
> 
> 
> Signing out, lost and confused.....


I realise this reply is to an old post, but honestly with the info you've put in the above,  the style you need is traditional jka Shotokan.


----------



## _Simon_

Oh my goodness so many posts, I was puzzled by this thread update haha!



gpseymour said:


> Let us know what you see and think. Checking out a new potential school can be a lot of fun.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm...clearly either you didn't wait until Monday, or I'm confused about days of the week. Or you're in a vastly different time zone. Or all of that??
> 
> Anyway, glad you saw something that looked interesting. Hope the first classes keep that feeling going for ya.



Thanks heaps mate, yeah still on the search! I know I may not find the perfect style for me (whatever that means), but really tuning into that feeling of what 'clicks'.

Hehe ah so yesterday was Monday and I checked out the class last night. I'm in Australia so I can't remember the difference in time zones


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> The ground work (sweeps from mount) in NGA would fit that exact description ("poor version of Bjj"). And it was there 30 years ago, long before I'd ever heard of BJJ. In the case of NGA, it's not even "more deadly" - just "not as good".



Sweep from mount? I'd be very curious to see this.



> My point is, how often, and for how long? When does a technique become part of the system? I wouldn't expect one of my students to necessarily remember where I told them a technique came from. To them, it's all NGA. And I might forget to give credit from time to time, especially if I'm talking to a group that includes people I've told before.



Considering that Bjj came from Judo and we still give credit to Judo throws? A very long time.




> And it is most likely picked up from BJJ. The picking up might have started 20 years ago, though, so what you see there might be 2nd generation - so those folks might just think of it as HKD.



Hmmm, yet another illustration of my issues with that system. However, to each their own.


----------



## _Simon_

Dirty Dog said:


> For starters, it's Tang Soo Do, not Tang Soo.
> There are no kicking techniques from Taekkyon, because Taekkyon is a dead art.
> Tang Soo Do is the branch of the Moo Duk Kwan that split from GM HWANG, Kee during the time after he left the unification movement but before he changed the name to Soo Bahk Do.
> It's basically Shotokan karate as taught by GM HWANG. It uses the same kata as Shotokan, though I believe that they're taught in a different order (this may be incorrect, as I am going from memory, and we all know how that works...).
> As for Chinese influences... GM HWANG reportedly had some training in Northern Chinese styles, but I've never really seen any evidence of this.



Ah right. I just called it Tang Soo similar to how people call karate-do 'karate'. But fair enough  (this club is actually called Tang Soo Tao!).

Ah right, am just going by club info and good ol Wiki. That's fascinating, yeah it definitely lookes to be quite Shotokan-like, in that case I may vibe with it. Cheers for the info


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Oh my goodness so many posts, I was puzzled by this thread update haha!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks heaps mate, yeah still on the search! I know I may not find the perfect style for me (whatever that means), but really tuning into that feeling of what 'clicks'.
> 
> Hehe ah so yesterday was Monday and I checked out the class last night. I'm in Australia so I can't remember the difference in time zones


Clearly, neither do I. Apparently, you're many hours ahead of us, so you already know what I'm going to type. 

I think, for most folks' purposes, that feeling of "what clicks" is far more important than any truly practical consideration. If you're having fun and don't feel like you're missing something important, who gives a damn about anything else?


----------



## _Simon_

Hanzou said:


> Simon, have you ever considered a grappling style like Judo, Bjj, or even Aikido? The systems you're practicing are actually quite similar to each other. Maybe you'd like something different?


Have never been drawn to the grappling arts to be honest... but I did definitely consider looking at Aikido and Daito Ryu just to try something different. I know I'm definitely attracted to the striking arts etc, but I do appreciate the suggestion. Trying different things is what this phase is all about


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Sweep from mount? I'd be very curious to see this.


Probably just a difference in terminology. Escapes from mount - the bridge-and-roll (what I call it) and its ilk.



> Considering that Bjj came from Judo and we still give credit to Judo throws? A very long time.


That seems unnecessary at this point for BJJ. Folks know the root of the art. I don't think NGA is any older (probably younger by a bit), but we don't give credit to Daito-ryu on individual techniques. When we give any history, we cite it as a primary source, but individual techniques aren't credited (some are more likely from Judo, another source art).



> Hmmm, yet another illustration of my issues with that system. However, to each their own.


Why is that a problem? When people learn a system, to them, what they learned is of that system. I don't expect people to remember where their instructor got techniques. I don't actually care. It's interesting, but not actually useful in any meaningful way.


----------



## _Simon_

oftheherd1 said:


> While I also think grappling styles have a place in MA, one needs to examine closely what styles someone may recommend, as to reason the person recommends a particular style, and what are the characteristics of a style that you would like.
> 
> For example, there is a person on MT (I'm trying to remember the name ) who always recommends BJJ as if there is nothing else worth discussing.  Me on the other hand, I very often recommend Hapkido.  I have the best of reasons so I don't need to discuss good reasons.
> 
> Seriously, we all have our preferences, and may sometimes have trouble articulating why we feel one art, especially grappling arts, may be better than others.  You also need to know what you are looking for in an art.  The Hapkido I studied was defense oriented in that we would normally wait until we were attacked and respond with the intent to cause pain or injury, intending to prevent further attacks.  Whereas my observations have been that Aikido normally doesn't intend to injure (but understands that may be a consequence of a defensive technique) but rather defend in a way that prevents injury to the practitioner, and waits until the attacker gets tired of being thrown around and quits attacking.  Very different concepts.  You need to know which one you can most easily find comfort with.  And within Hapkido or other grappling arts you may still find schools that don't agree with what I say and teach a different method of defense.
> 
> Hope that helps.


Well said  and hehe


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Have never been drawn to the grappling arts to be honest... but I did definitely consider looking at Aikido and Daito Ryu just to try something different. I know I'm definitely attracted to the striking arts etc, but I do appreciate the suggestion. Trying different things is what this phase is all about


If you like striking arts, the focus on flow in Aikido might actually be frustrating. They'll move past so many opportunities to strike (or throw) on their way to a finish.


----------



## DaveB

2.5 pages about Simon trialing karate dojo but as soon as Hanzou shows up it's a grappling thread.


----------



## _Simon_

DaveB said:


> I realise this reply is to an old post, but honestly with the info you've put in the above,  the style you need is traditional jka Shotokan.


Thanks DaveB, all replies are much appreciated . Ah so you think that'd be right up my alley?

Yeah there aren't any traditional Shotokan or Goju etc really close by, all styles that are nearby and that I've trained in have been hybrids, BUT there is a Shotokan dojo on my list about 40 minutes drive away which I am definitely going to check out. Am trying to leave out distance as a factor (within reason)


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> Clearly, neither do I. Apparently, you're many hours ahead of us, so you already know what I'm going to type.
> 
> I think, for most folks' purposes, that feeling of "what clicks" is far more important than any truly practical consideration. If you're having fun and don't feel like you're missing something important, who gives a damn about anything else?


Haha our advantage or possible detriment ;D

Yep very well said, and every time I check out a style and go through all the things which look good on paper why I 'should' like this one, it doesn't really connect to my feeling of it. An very educational process


----------



## DaveB

40 mins isnt ideal, but its not bad. 

I live in London and everything ends up being on the opposite side of the city to wherever I am. Currently it's an hour from home to the dojo.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> If you like striking arts, the focus on flow in Aikido might actually be frustrating. They'll move past so many opportunities to strike (or throw) on their way to a finish.


Ah right, see I also really love that flowing non-rigid aspect of things (and a direction I'm definitely moving into), which is why I'm really drawn to Sensei Rick Hotton's style of teaching. He's from Shotokan, but more a blend with his Aikido practice/principles, so aiki karate. Which strangely the very first style I trialled was aiki karate, I have a feeling I may be going back there . I didn't get enough of a trial with it to be honest (only 3 classes, due to not wanting to pay the annual fee).


----------



## _Simon_

DaveB said:


> 2.5 pages about Simon trialing karate dojo but as soon as Hanzou shows up it's a grappling thread.


Hahaha! Well... to be honest I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner haha... I've actually been hangin out for @drop bear to chime in with his classic "Do MMA". XD

All feedback is welcome, but I understand how things can go quite off topic round these parts


----------



## _Simon_

DaveB said:


> 40 mins isnt ideal, but its not bad.
> 
> I live in London and everything ends up being on the opposite side of the city to wherever I am. Currently it's an hour from home to the dojo.


Ah that's comforting actually, it's really not that bad if I trained twice a week. So many hybrid styles around here... would be really nice to check out one of the traditional origin styles (so to speak!).


----------



## _Simon_

(Dubz post)


----------



## Hanzou

_Simon_ said:


> Have never been drawn to the grappling arts to be honest... but I did definitely consider looking at Aikido and Daito Ryu just to try something different. I know I'm definitely attracted to the striking arts etc, but I do appreciate the suggestion. Trying different things is what this phase is all about



Understood. Definitely give a grappling art a try when you get a chance. Be careful though, you might become one of us.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> Probably just a difference in terminology. Escapes from mount - the bridge-and-roll (what I call it) and its ilk.



You mean the Upa Escape?








> That seems unnecessary at this point for BJJ. Folks know the root of the art. I don't think NGA is any older (probably younger by a bit), but we don't give credit to Daito-ryu on individual techniques. When we give any history, we cite it as a primary source, but individual techniques aren't credited (some are more likely from Judo, another source art).



Meh, it's just something we do. For example, we call the gyaku ude-garami the "Kimura" in honor of Masahiko Kimura who beat Helio Gracie. The Americana got its name because it was transmitted by an American Catch Wrestler traveling through Brazil.



> Why is that a problem? When people learn a system, to them, what they learned is of that system. I don't expect people to remember where their instructor got techniques. I don't actually care. It's interesting, but not actually useful in any meaningful way.



What if the technique (or series of techniques) are done poorly, and its effectiveness is completely removed because of it? Do you still feel that it isn't a problem?


----------



## _Simon_

Hanzou said:


> Understood. Definitely give a grappling art a try when you get a chance. Be careful though, you might become one of us.


Haha cheers


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Ah right, see I also really love that flowing non-rigid aspect of things (and a direction I'm definitely moving into), which is why I'm really drawn to Sensei Rick Hotton's style of teaching. He's from Shotokan, but more a blend with his Aikido practice/principles, so aiki karate. Which strangely the very first style I trialled was aiki karate, I have a feeling I may be going back there . I didn't get enough of a trial with it to be honest (only 3 classes, due to not wanting to pay the annual fee).


I'd be interested in seeing someone's take on aiki-based striking. I have my own thoughts on it, but suspect my usage of "aiki" is not standard for Aikido.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> You mean the Upa Escape?


Yes, that's what I call a bridge-and-roll. I picked up the name from someone somewhere in BJJ. 




> Meh, it's just something we do. For example, we call the gyaku ude-garami the "Kimura" in honor of Masahiko Kimura who beat Helio Gracie. The Americana got its name because it was transmitted by an American Catch Wrestler traveling through Brazil.


That's a bit of homage, but not really the same (in the latter case, at least) as attribution. 




> What if the technique (or series of techniques) are done poorly, and its effectiveness is completely removed because of it? Do you still feel that it isn't a problem?


That's a separate and unrelated issue. If the history is accurate, but the application is rubbish, that's not better.


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> The first 2 Pinan forms’ order is usually what’s changed. 1 is sometimes called 2, 2 sometimes 1, and a few places will teach 2 before 1. 3-5 aren’t changed nor debated. Not in any karate that I’ve seen anyway.


When I used to work out with old Shotokan friends we were always surprised at the similarities in Pinan 1 and 2 compared to our TKD which is very TSD influenced. Our #1 form starts with a down block and our #2 form starts with a high block/outside block combo. Is that similar to yours?


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> I've never found issues with origin to be significant to an art. It wouldn't matter (from a functional standpoint) if he'd made up the entire origin story.


Thank you. I was about to respond with the same reply. I am glad you beat me to it.


----------



## dvcochran

Hanzou said:


> Well, not necessarily.
> 
> There's two issues with Hapkido: Historical issues, and Modern issues.
> 
> The historical issues are two fold: The founder's account of where he learned his art is highly questionable. A Hapkido practitioner assassinated a president of South Korea so the are got a bad rap and was intentionally watered down in Korea.
> 
> The modern issues are that there's multiple types of Hapkido, there's a lack of Hapkido in combat sports, some TKD instructors magically became Hapkido instructors in the 90s and 2000s, and some of the modern claims of some practitioners are dubious.
> 
> And all of that leads to quality control issues.


The first comment has nothing to do with quality in the current era. Who's who and competition to be the "founder" for an art has nothing to do with the quality being taught today. Sure, if some of 90's and 2000's instructors are bad, well they are bad. But who or what standard do you use to measure them by? Same can be said about some instructors of ALL other styles who became such in the 90's and 2000's.
I do not have a Hapkido background so I have little knowledge or concern about its founding's. But as a style and system it is hard to dispute it holds quality. I think it is one of the more complete styles out there.


----------



## Hanzou

dvcochran said:


> The first comment has nothing to do with quality in the current era. Who's who and competition to be the "founder" for an art has nothing to do with the quality being taught today. Sure, if some of 90's and 2000's instructors are bad, well they are bad. But who or what standard do you use to measure them by? Same can be said about some instructors of ALL other styles who became such in the 90's and 2000's.
> I do not have a Hapkido background so I have little knowledge or concern about its founding's. But as a style and system it is hard to dispute it holds quality. I think it is one of the more complete styles out there.



Which style or system? There's quite a few types of Hapkido out there. Those two Hapkido schools I showed as examples are certainly not quality. I wouldn't be sending my loved ones there to get any form of MA instruction, that's for sure.

My standard is seeing what you're doing and comparing it to what others are doing. Frankly, striking and grappling are dead give-aways to the quality standards of a given system. If you got a bunch of goofballs doing nonsense and those goofballs think that nonsense is awesome enough to advertise on the web, then something's seriously wrong with what they're doing.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> I'd be interested in seeing someone's take on aiki-based striking. I have my own thoughts on it, but suspect my usage of "aiki" is not standard for Aikido.


Am not sure so much what entails aiki-based striking, but he uses alot of principles from his Aikido (flow, moving from/connection to your centre, importance of relaxation), and he speaks of moving away from the rigidness of alot of karate practice. Of being more natural and his approach to technique being alot more fluid, alive and relaxed.

I tried to look for a vid to illustrate but couldn't find one specifically, here's his channel if you were interested in seeing his approach: Shotokan Karate


----------



## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> When I used to work out with old Shotokan friends we were always surprised at the similarities in Pinan 1 and 2 compared to our TKD which is very TSD influenced. Our #1 form starts with a down block and our #2 form starts with a high block/outside block combo. Is that similar to yours?


Yes, our Pinan 1 starts with low block, and 2 starts with what people may call that combo block. According to some sources, 2 was/is actually 1 and was typically taught first. Someone somewhere thought the order should be switched because the low block version was easier for a beginner to learn, so the names and order were switched. Not everyone adopted that. Someone else kept the numbers intact, but taught 2 before 1.

I can’t remember who did the number changes and when, nor who switched the order but kept the numbers in tact. But I haven’t ever seen someone changing the numbers and order of 3-5.

Actually, one other monkey wrench to throw in there - there’s a well regarded teacher who only teaches Pinan 5 (among other kata; but only #5 from the Pinan series). He calls it Pinan 5, but claims that 5 is the only real/pure one from the series and the rest are altered beyond recognition.

It’s way too early for me to remember, much less look up sources. The gentleman teaching only Pinan 5 is one of those highly respected teachers in Okinawa who’s not famous outside of the inner teaching circles on Okinawa. I got that info from a in-person conversation with guy who’s spent significant time training in Okinawa. I can’t remember the teacher’s name nor what style he teaches, but it’s one of the prominent Okinawan styles.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Which style or system? There's quite a few types of Hapkido out there. Those two Hapkido schools I showed as examples are certainly not quality. I wouldn't be sending my loved ones there to get any form of MA instruction, that's for sure.


We only see a small part of what they do there. The ground work I learned in NGA wasn't any better than that, but the rest of the material was, and the instruction was generally good. I think most/all arts either have areas they don't cover, or areas they cover poorly. I'd prefer the former, but I understand that while a style is starting to cover something, some of the coverage will be poor.

The concepts in the first video (I didn't watch the whole thing, so speaking of what I saw) are sound, but the demonstrations of application aren't. I can't tell what he's saying to them, but he seems to imply slipping behind someone is very easy (demonstrating with people who aren't trying to stop him). The other doesn't seem to actually have much skill on ground technique.



> My standard is seeing what you're doing and comparing it to what others are doing. Frankly, striking and grappling are dead give-aways to the quality standards of a given system. If you got a bunch of goofballs doing nonsense and those goofballs think that nonsense is awesome enough to advertise on the web, then something's seriously wrong with what they're doing.


And that often amazes me. That second school probably has things they do MUCH better than ground work, but that's what they showed. If they did some of that ground work with even light, technical resistance, they'd quickly find out how unreliable some of that is.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Am not sure so much what entails aiki-based striking, but he uses alot of principles from his Aikido (flow, moving from/connection to your centre, importance of relaxation), and he speaks of moving away from the rigidness of alot of karate practice. Of being more natural and his approach to technique being alot more fluid, alive and relaxed.
> 
> I tried to look for a vid to illustrate but couldn't find one specifically, here's his channel if you were interested in seeing his approach: Shotokan Karate


That would be aiki-based striking. 

I'll poke around in that later and see what he's doing.


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> Yes, our Pinan 1 starts with low block, and 2 starts with what people may call that combo block. According to some sources, 2 was/is actually 1 and was typically taught first. Someone somewhere thought the order should be switched because the low block version was easier for a beginner to learn, so the names and order were switched. Not everyone adopted that. Someone else kept the numbers intact, but taught 2 before 1.
> 
> I can’t remember who did the number changes and when, nor who switched the order but kept the numbers in tact. But I haven’t ever seen someone changing the numbers and order of 3-5.
> 
> Actually, one other monkey wrench to throw in there - there’s a well regarded teacher who only teaches Pinan 5 (among other kata; but only #5 from the Pinan series). He calls it Pinan 5, but claims that 5 is the only real/pure one from the series and the rest are altered beyond recognition.
> 
> It’s way too early for me to remember, much less look up sources. The gentleman teaching only Pinan 5 is one of those highly respected teachers in Okinawa who’s not famous outside of the inner teaching circles on Okinawa. I got that info from a in-person conversation with guy who’s spent significant time training in Okinawa. I can’t remember the teacher’s name nor what style he teaches, but it’s one of the prominent Okinawan styles.



Yeah it makes sense to me having Pinan 1 as... well 1. Much easier to learn.

And wow haven't heard that about Pinan 5 and that claim! True in that I've seen slightly differing versions of Pinan 1-4, but I've also seen Pinan 5 being performed differently from what I remember, mainly stylistic (kokutsu dachi being different in Shotokan compared to Kyokushin/Seido), and I think instead of zenkutsu dachi I've seen kokutsu dachi used..

Oh and at my last tournament I caught up with somewhere who I'd trained with before, and he showed me in the version they practice the 2x manji ukes at the end aren't done at 45° angles but straight in front..


----------



## DaveB

JR 137 said:


> Yes, our Pinan 1 starts with low block, and 2 starts with what people may call that combo block. According to some sources, 2 was/is actually 1 and was typically taught first. Someone somewhere thought the order should be switched because the low block version was easier for a beginner to learn, so the names and order were switched. Not everyone adopted that. Someone else kept the numbers intact, but taught 2 before 1.
> 
> I can’t remember who did the number changes and when, nor who switched the order but kept the numbers in tact. But I haven’t ever seen someone changing the numbers and order of 3-5.
> 
> Actually, one other monkey wrench to throw in there - there’s a well regarded teacher who only teaches Pinan 5 (among other kata; but only #5 from the Pinan series). He calls it Pinan 5, but claims that 5 is the only real/pure one from the series and the rest are altered beyond recognition.
> 
> It’s way too early for me to remember, much less look up sources. The gentleman teaching only Pinan 5 is one of those highly respected teachers in Okinawa who’s not famous outside of the inner teaching circles on Okinawa. I got that info from a in-person conversation with guy who’s spent significant time training in Okinawa. I can’t remember the teacher’s name nor what style he teaches, but it’s one of the prominent Okinawan styles.



That is interesting. 

I've heard similar about Pinan 1 & 2.
Matsumura seito claim these were invented by Bushi Matsumura. 

Regarding the 1&2 switch, as far as I know it's not common in schools that call them Pinan. The switch was a Shotokan thing where Pinan were renamed Hiean.


----------



## oftheherd1

Hanzou said:


> I'm merely stating that I don't recall Hapkido doing ground fighting back in the day, now I'm seeing multiple examples of them doing it (poorly) and I'm wondering where that impetus is coming from.



What you are merely stating is that you don't have any backup for what you are saying.  "Back in the day" is not a quantifiable time.  I don't know how much time you spent (if any) trying to see what Hapkido taught.  As you pointed out, it isn't a sport martial art.  I you saw a demo, you would not have seen all the techniques available in Hapkido.  Some ground escape techniques are taught, but not a lot, at least to my knowledge.  Unlike BJJ, Hapkido students are not taught to go to the ground except in very controlled circumstances where a quick recovery is part of the technique.  BTW, what are the multiple eamples of ground defense being done poorly?  Those two you showed?



Hanzou said:


> If that's what you learned, I would strongly recommend attending a few Bjj classes and learn how to actually fight from the guard position. That vid was bad on multiple levels.



I might consider that.  But you would have to show me BJJ didn't borrow those techniques from another art, or improved them so much they are not recognizable as coming from another art.  Otherwise, why wouldn't I go to the art BJJ got them from?



Hanzou said:


> I'm saying that if you're pulling techniques from BJJ or other MAs, you should acknowledge that you're doing it instead of pretending that that stuff is native to the system in question.



If is an interesting word.  But IF I knew any techniques in Hapkido were taken from any other art than Daito-Ryu, I personally would have no problem saying so.  Hapkido is a rather young art.  My GM told me that all the old GM knew and acknowledged that Hapkido was from a Korean man (DJN Choi) who had studied in Japan and brought his knowledge to Korea after WWII.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> We only see a small part of what they do there. The ground work I learned in NGA wasn't any better than that, but the rest of the material was, and the instruction was generally good. I think most/all arts either have areas they don't cover, or areas they cover poorly. I'd prefer the former, but I understand that while a style is starting to cover something, some of the coverage will be poor.
> 
> The concepts in the first video (I didn't watch the whole thing, so speaking of what I saw) are sound, but the demonstrations of application aren't. I can't tell what he's saying to them, but he seems to imply slipping behind someone is very easy (demonstrating with people who aren't trying to stop him). The other doesn't seem to actually have much skill on ground technique.



I'm talking about this part especially:







This is wrong across the board. The guy on top is applying zero pressure on the guy on the bottom. All of his weight is actually on the floor where it should be on his partner's chest. He allows his partner to have both his hands free which allows an easy frame to push his partner's head upwards. The top pressure is so weak that he can pretty much bench press his partner's upper body away with just his arms. The choke applied is laughable, and from that angle provides zero threat to the person on the bottom. So why are they even practicing this? If a guy with zero training has you in that position, they're going for mount or they're punching you in the face. No one is going to lay like that and try to squeeze your neck from that angle. I'm pretty sure the guy on top is a black belt to boot.

The bottom guy's "counter" to this nonsense is just as bad. However, I don't feel like writing another paragraph. 




> And that often amazes me. That second school probably has things they do MUCH better than ground work, but that's what they showed. If they did some of that ground work with even light, technical resistance, they'd quickly find out how unreliable some of that is.



Well Oftheherd said that they practiced that very technique in his dojo. So there you go.


----------



## JR 137

DaveB said:


> That is interesting.
> 
> I've heard similar about Pinan 1 & 2.
> Matsumura seito claim these were invented by Bushi Matsumura.
> 
> Regarding the 1&2 switch, as far as I know it's not common in schools that call them Pinan. The switch was a Shotokan thing where Pinan were renamed Hiean.


I’ve been told Heian is just the Japanese pronunciation of Pinan. Same kanji, same meaning. Many of the Japanese schools went back to calling them Pinan instead of Heian.

Your Bushi Matsumura stuff jogged my memory a bit. I think the Okinawan teacher I talked about only teaches Pinan 5 because that’s the only intact way Matsumura allegedly taught it (or the closest possible), whereas the claim is Itosu (and possibly Funakoshi, depending on who you ask) changed the Pinan series quite a bit.

Some claim the Pinan series is Itosu’s creation, breaking down Kusanku/Kanku into easier bits for children and beginners. Others claim it was I believe Matsumura’s and is based on another prominent kata* and a bit of Kanku.

At the end of the day, it’s all trivial knowledge to me  Interesting, but trivial; I need to know what I’ve been taught.

*I can’t for the life of me remember which kata it was claimed. I want to say Gojushiho, but I’m pretty sure it’s not. It’s a prominent kata that’s not done in either organization I’ve been in. I’ve seen it many times, and after watching for the Pinan kata, it looked far closer to the Pinans than Kanku does. It’s done in Shotokan, and I remember watching a Kanazawa video of it when I was watching for Pinan stuff in it. Really driving me crazy now


----------



## Hanzou

oftheherd1 said:


> What you are merely stating is that you don't have any backup for what you are saying.  "Back in the day" is not a quantifiable time.  I don't know how much time you spent (if any) trying to see what Hapkido taught.  As you pointed out, it isn't a sport martial art.  I you saw a demo, you would not have seen all the techniques available in Hapkido.  Some ground escape techniques are taught, but not a lot, at least to my knowledge.  Unlike BJJ, Hapkido students are not taught to go to the ground except in very controlled circumstances where a quick recovery is part of the technique.  BTW, what are the multiple eamples of ground defense being done poorly?  Those two you showed?
















> I might consider that.  But you would have to show me BJJ didn't borrow those techniques from another art, or improved them so much they are not recognizable as coming from another art.  Otherwise, why wouldn't I go to the art BJJ got them from?



Well by all means, find another art that does the Guard better than Bjj. It certainly didn't come out of Daito-Ryu or Aikido.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> I'm talking about this part especially:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is wrong across the board. The guy on top is applying zero pressure on the guy on the bottom. All of his weight is actually on the floor where it should be on his partner's chest. He allows his partner to have both his hands free which allows an easy frame to push his partner's head upwards. The top pressure is so weak that he can pretty much bench press his partner's upper body away with just his arms. The choke applied is laughable, and from that angle provides zero threat to the person on the bottom. So why are they even practicing this? If a guy with zero training has you in that position, they're going for mount or they're punching you in the face. No one is going to lay like that and try to squeeze your neck from that angle. I'm pretty sure the guy on top is a black belt to boot.
> 
> The bottom guy's "counter" to this nonsense is just as bad. However, I don't feel like writing another paragraph.


Critiquing the attack's technical merit isn't really the point, but I'll come back to that in a moment. The counter might actually work against an unskilled attack with a little resisted practice. I agree about the attack being weak. The point (to me) is that the response might be workable against the attack being presented. I'd rather see them use a better attack position, because what works there would (mostly) work just as well with this weaker attack. There are some factors that change with this position that require a different response. For instance, if the attacker has no weight on me, I can't use my legs and hips to shift him any significant amount. So, I suppose it's possible that was the point of this response. Probably not, but it's possible.

This is a good example of where just letting students add some honest resistance would show the weakness. Someone in the room would have thought to extend their own arms or shift their weight onto their partner, or maybe just shift their head when the frame comes up (because the guy on the ground has no head control). It wouldn't have to get really drastic to cause them to re-examine that response.


----------



## oftheherd1

Hanzou said:


> Well by all means, find another art that does the Guard better than Bjj. It certainly didn't come out of Daito-Ryu or Aikido.



Well I don't intend to spend time doing that.  Nor to continue this exchange with you.  The Hapkido I learned suits me well.  It is not a sport martial art, and most everything is done in defense of an attack.  We do not intend to stay on the ground and attempt a submission.  If BJJ likes to do that and so do you, you are in the right place.  We cannot convince each other that our art is better, only be satisfied that our art allows us to do what we want from a martial art.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> Critiquing the attack's technical merit isn't really the point, but I'll come back to that in a moment. The counter might actually work against an unskilled attack with a little resisted practice. I agree about the attack being weak. The point (to me) is that the response might be workable against the attack being presented. I'd rather see them use a better attack position, because what works there would (mostly) work just as well with this weaker attack. There are some factors that change with this position that require a different response. For instance, if the attacker has no weight on me, I can't use my legs and hips to shift him any significant amount. So, I suppose it's possible that was the point of this response. Probably not, but it's possible.



Uh, if there's no weight on you, what's stopping your hips and legs from moving freely? In the example above, there's nothing inhibiting the guy from the bottom to move his legs and hips to escape. Also with his arms just dangling like that, you can break his arms him from the bottom without even trying to escape. 

Also the attack isn't realistic in any sense. A real attacker will attempt to advance the position, not lay on their tummy and try to choke you from afar.



> This is a good example of where just letting students add some honest resistance would show the weakness. Someone in the room would have thought to extend their own arms or shift their weight onto their partner, or maybe just shift their head when the frame comes up (because the guy on the ground has no head control). It wouldn't have to get really drastic to cause them to re-examine that response.



They can only do that if they know what they're doing. Those guys clearly don't.


----------



## Hanzou

oftheherd1 said:


> Well I don't intend to spend time doing that.  Nor to continue this exchange with you.  The Hapkido I learned suits me well.  It is not a sport martial art, and most everything is done in defense of an attack.  We do not intend to stay on the ground and attempt a submission.  If BJJ likes to do that and so do you, you are in the right place.  We cannot convince each other that our art is better, only be satisfied that our art allows us to do what we want from a martial art.



It isn't about one art being better than the other. It's about doing things the right way and the wrong way. If your goal is to escape the ground as quickly as possible, doing things the wrong way isn't going to help you achieve that goal.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Uh, if there's no weight on you, what's stopping your hips and legs from moving freely? In the example above, there's nothing inhibiting the guy from the bottom to move his legs and hips to escape. Also with his arms just dangling like that, you can break his arms him from the bottom without even trying to escape.


Nothing, but that wasn't my point. Some counters that use the hips to shift the opponent aren't useful when the opponent doesn't put weight on. There are side control methods I can use that don't put much of my weight on the opponent, to take that tool away.



> Also the attack isn't realistic in any sense. A real attacker will attempt to advance the position, not lay on their tummy and try to choke you from afar.


I agree there are too many parts that aren't realistic. We don't have to get into technical breakdown to see them - just have the attacker try to resist a bit, and many of them will solve themselves.



> They can only do that if they know what they're doing. Those guys clearly don't.


I don't think that's entirely true. Even someone who doesn't know what they are doing can provide better resistance. And someone who's actually trying to figure things out will come up with some solutions without instruction. Will it be as good as what the entire body of an art like BJJ has developed? No, but it can be better than what we see in that video. It doesn't have to be best - just useful.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> Nothing, but that wasn't my point. Some counters that use the hips to shift the opponent aren't useful when the opponent doesn't put weight on. There are side control methods I can use that don't put much of my weight on the opponent, to take that tool away.



I would need to see exactly what you're talking about here. If you're talking about some sort of lock or hold, that's different than what we're talking about. In the case above, shrimping away, or the standard side control escape that leads you back into Guard would work just fine. It would work far better than the escape they used, which was frankly a mess. Honestly that side control is so bad, you could take the back without even trying.



> I agree there are too many parts that aren't realistic. We don't have to get into technical breakdown to see them - just have the attacker try to resist a bit, and many of them will solve themselves.
> 
> I don't think that's entirely true. Even someone who doesn't know what they are doing can provide better resistance. And someone who's actually trying to figure things out will come up with some solutions without instruction. Will it be as good as what the entire body of an art like BJJ has developed? No, but it can be better than what we see in that video. It doesn't have to be best - just useful.



Here's the problem though: If your goal is to mimic an untrained attacker, then the attack needs to be based on what an untrained opponent would more than likely do. Regardless of their level of training, an attacker will attempt to advance their position. So if he's stretching outwards to choke your neck, they'll move in closer to increase the power of the choke. If they're trying to hurt you, or they just get tired of you bringing your hands up, they're not going to choke you anymore, they're going to strike you. Since they can't punch you effectively while laying on their stomach, they're going to go for a top position to gain an advantage on leverage. Keep in mind that this is just for an untrained opponent. If you're fighting against a trained person, you're dead.
*
Nothing *the guy on the bottom is doing is preventing that from happening, and that's the problem.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> I would need to see exactly what you're talking about here. If you're talking about some sort of lock or hold, that's different than what we're talking about. In the case above, shrimping away, or the standard side control escape that leads you back into Guard would work just fine. It would work far better than the escape they used, which was frankly a mess. Honestly that side control is so bad, you could take the back without even trying.


I'm talking about things like a basic upa. That uses the hips/legs to shift them, which wouldn't be useful if their weight isn't on them. I'm not arguing this makes it harder to escape/counter, but that it's a very different thing to escape/counter. In many ways, it's easier, but you do need a different approach.



> Here's the problem though: If your goal is to mimic an untrained attacker, then the attack needs to be based on what an untrained opponent would more than likely do. Regardless of their level of training, an attacker will attempt to advance their position. So if he's stretching outwards to choke your neck, they'll move in closer to increase the power of the choke. If they're trying to hurt you, or they just get tired of you bringing your hands up, they're not going to choke you anymore, they're going to strike you. Since they can't punch you effectively while laying on their stomach, they're going to go for a top position to gain an advantage on leverage. Keep in mind that this is just for an untrained opponent. If you're fighting against a trained person, you're dead.


Agreed. And asking the "attacker" to resist a little will cause them to do some of those things. If you allow them to vary the attack, they'll do more of them. Working against that resistance, folks will figure out some of the stuff that works all on their own if they have some basic fight training (can't say whether these folks do, or not).
*



			Nothing
		
Click to expand...

*


> the guy on the bottom is doing is preventing that from happening, and that's the problem.


Agreed.


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> I'm talking about things like a basic upa. That uses the hips/legs to shift them, which wouldn't be useful if their weight isn't on them. I'm not arguing this makes it harder to escape/counter, but that it's a very different thing to escape/counter. In many ways, it's easier, but you do need a different approach.



Again I'm going to need an example because the Upa Mount escape is the exact opposite of what (I think) you're talking about. 

Regardless, I think we can both agree that that was a very bad drill.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Again I'm going to need an example because the Upa Mount escape is the exact opposite of what (I think) you're talking about.
> 
> Regardless, I think we can both agree that that was a very bad drill.


Then I don't know what upa is, though I thought I did - which doesn't surprise me.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

So, to prevent the millionth grappling thread...@_Simon_, do you have any plans to continue going to the TSD place? Or going to keep on looking?

Edit: hmm it's not letting me tag @_Simon_ up there, but letting me here...weird.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Nothing, but that wasn't my point. Some counters that use the hips to shift the opponent aren't useful when the opponent doesn't put weight on. There are side control methods I can use that don't put much of my weight on the opponent, to take that tool away.



Everyone even quality grapplers know gag escapes. 

Where the person on top is so hilariously bad that you just roll them off.

You are rarely defeating someone by being more terrible than they expect.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I'm talking about things like a basic upa. That uses the hips/legs to shift them, which wouldn't be useful if their weight isn't on them. I'm not arguing this makes it harder to escape/counter, but that it's a very different thing to escape/counter. In many ways, it's easier, but you do need a different approach.


There is a trick in mount where you squeeze your knees together and sit a bit off the guy to prevent a sweep.

But that is different to just being a dud.


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> I’ve been told Heian is just the Japanese pronunciation of Pinan. Same kanji, same meaning. Many of the Japanese schools went back to calling them Pinan instead of Heian.
> 
> Your Bushi Matsumura stuff jogged my memory a bit. I think the Okinawan teacher I talked about only teaches Pinan 5 because that’s the only intact way Matsumura allegedly taught it (or the closest possible), whereas the claim is Itosu (and possibly Funakoshi, depending on who you ask) changed the Pinan series quite a bit.
> 
> Some claim the Pinan series is Itosu’s creation, breaking down Kusanku/Kanku into easier bits for children and beginners. Others claim it was I believe Matsumura’s and is based on another prominent kata* and a bit of Kanku.
> 
> At the end of the day, it’s all trivial knowledge to me  Interesting, but trivial; I need to know what I’ve been taught.
> 
> *I can’t for the life of me remember which kata it was claimed. I want to say Gojushiho, but I’m pretty sure it’s not. It’s a prominent kata that’s not done in either organization I’ve been in. I’ve seen it many times, and after watching for the Pinan kata, it looked far closer to the Pinans than Kanku does. It’s done in Shotokan, and I remember watching a Kanazawa video of it when I was watching for Pinan stuff in it. Really driving me crazy now


Hehe yeah to me I could definitely see the Pinans as being derived from Kanku, so many times I've watched someone mid-way Kanku thinking "Ah cool they're doing Pinan 2/4/5" but alas it wasn't!


----------



## _Simon_

kempodisciple said:


> So, to prevent the millionth grappling thread...@_Simon_, do you have any plans to continue going to the TSD place? Or going to keep on looking?
> 
> Edit: hmm it's not letting me tag @_Simon_ up there, but letting me here...weird.


Haha all good, appreciate the segway back . It is funny how a very non-grappling thread turned into one!

Yeah I definitely will, am not sure if I'll do the full month trial like I've been doing, but maybe a couple of weeks to get the feel of it. It'll have to be next week sometime as they have a grading on and won't have normal class. But I'll update y'all on how it goes.

And yeah that's strange, but regardless I read through all the posts anyway


----------



## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> Hehe yeah to me I could definitely see the Pinans as being derived from Kanku, so many times I've watched someone mid-way Kanku thinking "Ah cool they're doing Pinan 2/4/5" but alas it wasn't!


I’m assuming Kyokushin Kanku?  Sosai heavily modified that kata, and it looks far more Pinan than any other version of Kanku. I really like the Kyokushin Kanku, but saying there’s a lot of parallels based on that version isn’t really accurate in the whole grand scheme of Kanku.

It’s like Useishi. Sosai heavily modified Gojushiho, and because of the heavy modification renamed it Useishi. Useishi somehow also means Gojushiho - 54 Steps. I think it’s an older way of saying it. Gotta love languages I don’t understand


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> I’m assuming Kyokushin Kanku?  Sosai heavily modified that kata, and it looks far more Pinan than any other version of Kanku. I really like the Kyokushin Kanku, but saying there’s a lot of parallels based on that version isn’t really accurate in the whole grand scheme of Kanku.
> 
> It’s like Useishi. Sosai heavily modified Gojushiho, and because of the heavy modification renamed it Useishi. Useishi somehow also means Gojushiho - 54 Steps. I think it’s an older way of saying it. Gotta love languages I don’t understand



Yeah Kyokushin Kanku but I was mainly referring to other versions of Kanku that have alot of elements/sequences of Pinan katas. But it's been awhile since I've watched it, I may be mixing them up. XD

I don't think I've seen Useishi, just looked in the syllabus, there's Sushiho for 3rd Dan in there but unsure if that's the same as Gojushiho/Useishi.

Ah just Wiki'd Gojushiho, yep other names include Useishi and Sushiho. Ah and also says: "Gojushiho was developed by one of the Okinawan karate master, "Sokon Matsumura" and named it as "Uesheishi" under the fluency of chinese Kungfu." Fascinating..


----------



## dvcochran

Hanzou said:


> It isn't about one art being better than the other. It's about doing things the right way and the wrong way. If your goal is to escape the ground as quickly as possible, doing things the wrong way isn't going to help you achieve that goal.


You mean YOUR right way don't you?
Every art has merit. Every art has things it does better, and worse, that others. You are seriously kidding yourself with this idea that BJJ does everything right. I am certain your MA sample is very, very small. It is proven by your ideas.


----------



## JR 137

@_Simon_
See any similarities between the Pinan series and Gankaku kata (aka Chinto before Funakoshi renamed it)?





Edit: Then again, Kanku Dai





I think Pinan had to have come from both, not one or the other. Too many similarities IMO.


----------



## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah Kyokushin Kanku but I was mainly referring to other versions of Kanku that have alot of elements/sequences of Pinan katas. But it's been awhile since I've watched it, I may be mixing them up. XD
> 
> I don't think I've seen Useishi, just looked in the syllabus, there's Sushiho for 3rd Dan in there but unsure if that's the same as Gojushiho/Useishi.
> 
> Ah just Wiki'd Gojushiho, yep other names include Useishi and Sushiho. Ah and also says: "Gojushiho was developed by one of the Okinawan karate master, "Sokon Matsumura" and named it as "Uesheishi" under the fluency of chinese Kungfu." Fascinating..


Sorry, I meant Sushiho, not Useishi. My mistake. No idea how I mixed up the names. I think Useishi is the Okinawan pronunciation of Gojushiho?


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> @_Simon_
> See any similarities between the Pinan series and Gankaku kata (aka Chinto before Funakoshi renamed it)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Then again, Kanku Dai
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Pinan had to have come from both, not one or the other. Too many similarities IMO.


Ah thanks for posting!

Gankaku was awesome... definitely could see remnants of Pinan 3 and 5 in there!

Kanku had Pinan 2 and 4 elements from what I could see! I will have to learn both of those now  (have always wanted to learn Kanku anyway, fingers crossed the style I go with has that)


----------



## Hanzou

dvcochran said:


> You mean YOUR right way don't you?
> Every art has merit. Every art has things it does better, and worse, that others. You are seriously kidding yourself with this idea that BJJ does everything right. I am certain your MA sample is very, very small. It is proven by your ideas.



No, the right way period. You're either doing it right, or you're doing it wrong. I've already thoroughly broken down why those Hapkido schools were doing their ground fighting wrong. If you find issue with my breakdowns, by all means tell me how I'm wrong.

Every art has merit, that is true. However the discussion here was about quality control, and the fact that the lack of competition or standards caused questionable stuff to pop up within the sphere of Hapkido. So much so, that some of these schools are comfortable enough to post their craziness online for the world to see. Here's another such example;






I have no issue with Hapkido schools adopting BJJ to their curriculums, but if you're going to do it, please either hire a Bjj instructor, or wait until you're at least a purple belt to start teaching it to your students. Also be up front and HONEST about where you're pulling these techniques from.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> or wait until you're at least a purple belt to start teaching it to your students


A good BJJ blue belt can deliver some quality ground work instruction for the very basics, in my experience. Not all of them, but those who have skill (learned or natural) at teaching can.


----------



## dvcochran

Hanzou said:


> No, the right way period. You're either doing it right, or you're doing it wrong. I've already thoroughly broken down why those Hapkido schools were doing their ground fighting wrong. If you find issue with my breakdowns, by all means tell me how I'm wrong.
> 
> Every art has merit, that is true. However the discussion here was about quality control, and the fact that the lack of competition or standards caused questionable stuff to pop up within the sphere of Hapkido. So much so, that some of these schools are comfortable enough to post their craziness online for the world to see. Here's another such example;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no issue with Hapkido schools adopting BJJ to their curriculums, but if you're going to do it, please either hire a Bjj instructor, or wait until you're at least a purple belt to start teaching it to your students. Also be up front and HONEST about where you're pulling these techniques from.


I have no doubt a blue belt in BJJ knows some ground work. That is not the point that you just keep missing. While you are very passionate about your BJJ and I can appreciate that, most everything you are arguing in proposition for can be argued in Hapkido, and all other styles. For example, you have railed on the validity of the origins of Hapkido. A quick internet search stirs up the same findings regarding BJJ in origin and who it has taken some of its methods from. So please do us all a favor and chill out a little with your very tilted opinion. Two sides of the coin and all. You can be passionate about your art without coming off sounding just, stupid.


----------



## Hanzou

dvcochran said:


> I have no doubt a blue belt in BJJ knows some ground work. That is not the point that you just keep missing.



Correct. The point is that none of those Hapkido instructors showing those techniques were Blue belt level. In fact, I would argue that they're not even a striped white belt. Their groundwork actually looks like it was taken from youtube.



> While you are very passionate about your BJJ and I can appreciate that, most everything you are arguing in proposition for can be argued in Hapkido, and all other style. For example, you have railed on the validity of the origins of Hapkido. A quick internet search stirs up the same findings regarding BJJ in origin and who it has taken some of its methods from.



Elaborate please. No one disputes that the Gracies (and others) learned Judo/Jujutsu from Maeda. However there is heavy dispute that Choi learned Daito Ryu from Takeda, especially among Daito Ryu exponents living and dead. Additionally I provided the issues with the "Hapkido ground fighting" techniques displayed in the videos I posted.

What origins of BJJ are you talking about in particular?



> So please do us all a favor and chill out a little with your very tilted opinion. Two sides of the coin and all. You can be passionate about your art without coming off sounding just, stupid.



Except its not an opinion, and its not "two sides of the coin". The ground fighting shown in those vids I posted was bad, and could potentially get someone hurt or killed, and that's a *fact*. Your *opinions* displayed in this thread are noted. I'm still waiting for you to provide some facts to back up what you're claiming.


----------



## DaveB

JR 137 said:


> I’ve been told Heian is just the Japanese pronunciation of Pinan. Same kanji, same meaning. Many of the Japanese schools went back to calling them Pinan instead of Heian.
> 
> Your Bushi Matsumura stuff jogged my memory a bit. I think the Okinawan teacher I talked about only teaches Pinan 5 because that’s the only intact way Matsumura allegedly taught it (or the closest possible), whereas the claim is Itosu (and possibly Funakoshi, depending on who you ask) changed the Pinan series quite a bit.
> 
> Some claim the Pinan series is Itosu’s creation, breaking down Kusanku/Kanku into easier bits for children and beginners. Others claim it was I believe Matsumura’s and is based on another prominent kata* and a bit of Kanku.
> 
> At the end of the day, it’s all trivial knowledge to me  Interesting, but trivial; I need to know what I’ve been taught.
> 
> *I can’t for the life of me remember which kata it was claimed. I want to say Gojushiho, but I’m pretty sure it’s not. It’s a prominent kata that’s not done in either organization I’ve been in. I’ve seen it many times, and after watching for the Pinan kata, it looked far closer to the Pinans than Kanku does. It’s done in Shotokan, and I remember watching a Kanazawa video of it when I was watching for Pinan stuff in it. Really driving me crazy now



I think there's a slight difference to the meaning of hiean/Pinan, but it is essentially the same thing. 

The generally accepted view was that all 5 were from Itosu, derived from kanku dai (kusanku), but more recent study suggests they come from a dead kata called Channan that may or may not be from Shaolin. Then application study suggests that 3, 4 and 5 each derive from an older kata, 3 = Jion/Jitte, 4 = Kanku dai and 5 = Chinto.

1 and 2 could come from kanku dai as well but they could equally be unique additions, but the split does give credence to the idea that Matsumura developed them.

The idea that the Pinan are for kids is somewhat overblown. They are more like an introductory self defence course but one meant to cover 2-4 years. The name means something like Peaceful, and is supposed to indicate the sense of security one has at knowing he can defend himself because of mastery of these techniques.


----------



## _Simon_

Okeydokey, so yep as per my other Rolled ankle thread.... I'm out of action for a little while. At the tournament 11 weeks ago I rolled my ankle badly, and x-ray, ultrasound and ct scan showed partially torn ligament, fracture and bone fragment. Gonna have a cast put on and then recover, then physiotherapy down the track.

So no new style for the moment... was very emotional and bummed out by this but I'll just focus on what I can do. Which is jumping flying side kicks over 7 people breaking 4 stacked boards being held by a grizzly bear.

Thanks for tuning in! No idea how I can keep my cardio up during this time haha, there are only so many pushups I can muster. Will still do upper body weight training, hand techniques, and pistol squats galore with my good leg hehe!


----------



## Flying Crane

_Simon_ said:


> Okeydokey, so yep as per my other Rolled ankle thread.... I'm out of action for a little while. At the tournament 11 weeks ago I rolled my ankle badly, and x-ray, ultrasound and ct scan showed partially torn ligament, fracture and bone fragment. Gonna have a cast put on and then recover, then physiotherapy down the track.
> 
> So no new style for the moment... was very emotional and bummed out by this but I'll just focus on what I can do. Which is jumping flying side kicks over 7 people breaking 4 stacked boards being held by a grizzly bear.
> 
> Thanks for tuning in! No idea how I can keep my cardio up during this time haha, there are only so many pushups I can muster. Will still do upper body weight training, hand techniques, and pistol squats galore with my good leg hehe!


They’ve got grizzlies in the land of Oz?


----------



## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> They’ve got grizzlies in the land of Oz?


Hehe nah we don't, was just thinking of one of the more dangerous activities I could be doing [emoji14]


----------



## _Simon_

I joined up as a member of Sensei Rick's Sunday Morning Keiko in January, and received the physical stuff today .

I joined as a supplement to my path, wherever I may end up, it provides alot of thought and insight into training which I. really resonate with

It was perfect timing, as I was struggling a bit on the martial path of late, and was stoked to see this on my doorstep. In the package is a welcome letter, certificate of membership, engraved perspex member's card, and a training passport/journal which has an inquiry section for writing your own personal inquiry, training records and notes, and a general notes section (also has a lot of great chapters of insightful writing in it too, not only regarding karate, but mindset, philosophy, perspective etc).

You get access to the exclusive members content online, which is a bunch of different training clips with Sensei Rick (and a few others) explaining key concepts and applications, as well as access to the member's forum so you can chat with others in the community.

Very cool


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> I joined up as a member of Sensei Rick's Sunday Morning Keiko in January, and received the physical stuff today .
> 
> I joined as a supplement to my path, wherever I may end up, it provides alot of thought and insight into training which I. really resonate with
> 
> It was perfect timing, as I was struggling a bit on the martial path of late, and was stoked to see this on my doorstep. In the package is a welcome letter, certificate of membership, engraved perspex member's card, and a training passport/journal which has an inquiry section for writing your own personal inquiry, training records and notes, and a general notes section (also has a lot of great chapters of insightful writing in it too, not only regarding karate, but mindset, philosophy, perspective etc).
> 
> You get access to the exclusive members content online, which is a bunch of different training clips with Sensei Rick (and a few others) explaining key concepts and applications, as well as access to the member's forum so you can chat with others in the community.
> 
> Very cool


Very nice. Would it be possible to get a URL on the website to glean for ideas? PM if you prefer.


----------



## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> Very nice. Would it be possible to get a URL on the website to glean for ideas? PM if you prefer.


Ah for sure, definitely check out his YouTube channel which is an amazing resource, I've watched every one of his vids haha. Even watching how his body moves I've learned so much in translating that to my practice.

YouTube channel:
Shotokan Karate

Sunday morning keiko is here: Sunday Morning Keiko


----------



## _Simon_

OKAY!

Has been awhile folks... my foot is all healed up from its injury, been having wrist and knee pain issues recently, pelvic stuff still up and down, but goshdarn it I'm keen to get back into it!! Financially also been not able to afford training, but am just having a strong feeling that I need to follow this, honour where my heart is taking me, you know?

So, I just called up a Tang Soo Tao place around the corner from me that I sat in and watched a class at the end of last year (after much staring vacantly at the phone anxiously haha, it's a real challenge!), and the instructor asked if I wanted to jump in tonight! I enthusiastically said yes!

I asked what was best in terms of me and my trialling period and in getting a feel for the style, and he said jump in tonight and I can train Friday too and if I enjoy it I can sign up.

Excited and nervous! But happy I took the leap.

The journey continues.....


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> OKAY!
> 
> Has been awhile folks... my foot is all healed up from its injury, been having wrist and knee pain issues recently, pelvic stuff still up and down, but goshdarn it I'm keen to get back into it!! Financially also been not able to afford training, but am just having a strong feeling that I need to follow this, honour where my heart is taking me, you know?
> 
> So, I just called up a Tang Soo Tao place around the corner from me that I sat in and watched a class at the end of last year (after much staring vacantly at the phone anxiously haha, it's a real challenge!), and the instructor asked if I wanted to jump in tonight! I enthusiastically said yes!
> 
> I asked what was best in terms of me and my trialling period and in getting a feel for the style, and he said jump in tonight and I can train Friday too and if I enjoy it I can sign up.
> 
> Excited and nervous! But happy I took the leap.
> 
> The journey continues.....


Sounds like you might have a new "home". Let us know how it goes.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> Sounds like you might have a new "home". Let us know how it goes.


Hehe, and it is literally just round the corner from my home!

Really enjoyed the training! Obviously the Korean terminology was different to get used to, but I managed to slot in well with my foundation, and obvious slight technical differences.

The breathing they did was different too, rather fascinating! They all did a "choo" sound with techniques, and the last technique in a series was like a "tsaaaa". They still did the normal kiai/kihap shout at finishing points.

Did some standing basics, moving basics and combos combining kicks and punches.

Did an interesting movement when moving in fighting stance which took some getting used to, it was almost like an arm swing to our open side and snapping it back in guard position. Not sure what it was exactly!

We did alot of bagwork and paddlework too which was fun. Got dizzy from the spinning back kicks and spinning inside crescent kicks hehe but I surprised myself with my balance, ability to generate power, and my accuracy with techniques onto the pads seeing as I haven't done that type of training in awhile.

Was actually a tough class fitness-wise, my cardio needs a little work hehe.

Did some forms which I knew (basic forms, the universal 1st form etc).

I loved the way we started and ended class, the crosslegged meditation was about 1-2 minutes or so that he guided us through. Not the 3 or 4 second mokuso I'm used to in karate hehe.

The instructor was great, really nice guy, was welcoming and patient, wasn't a hard drill sergeant type but he still pushed us.

One thing I noticed is that the style and dojang were very traditional, and there was alot of etiquette and respect, which I really like. Lots of bowing and thanking the partner, so that was nice and am comfortable with that.

From what I've read, Tang Soo Tao incorporates meditation, yoga, tai chi and qi gong practices which is really cool, I'm not sure the extent of it, perhaps just very basic practices of them, but I have a feeling it's once you've gone up in the grades that you do that to compliment the art.

I don't think it was an instant "love connection", but I enjoyed the training. Or maybe I just enjoyed training in a place with other people again haha. Anyways, I'll train Friday too and go from there .

But filled with a newfound confidence in myself that I can indeed do this, and start again. Even the initial phone call is incredibly hard for me, so hard to explain haha, and rocking up to a new place training with new people in a new style, unsure if my physical stuff can hold up... But I managed well tonight, and no longer want my ailment to hold me back in life. Quite proud.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Hehe, and it is literally just round the corner from my home!
> 
> Really enjoyed the training! Obviously the Korean terminology was different to get used to, but I managed to slot in well with my foundation, and obvious slight technical differences.
> 
> The breathing they did was different too, rather fascinating! They all did a "choo" sound with techniques, and the last technique in a series was like a "tsaaaa". They still did the normal kiai/kihap shout at finishing points.
> 
> Did some standing basics, moving basics and combos combining kicks and punches.
> 
> Did an interesting movement when moving in fighting stance which took some getting used to, it was almost like an arm swing to our open side and snapping it back in guard position. Not sure what it was exactly!
> 
> We did alot of bagwork and paddlework too which was fun. Got dizzy from the spinning back kicks and spinning inside crescent kicks hehe but I surprised myself with my balance, ability to generate power, and my accuracy with techniques onto the pads seeing as I haven't done that type of training in awhile.
> 
> Was actually a tough class fitness-wise, my cardio needs a little work hehe.
> 
> Did some forms which I knew (basic forms, the universal 1st form etc).
> 
> I loved the way we started and ended class, the crosslegged meditation was about 1-2 minutes or so that he guided us through. Not the 3 or 4 second mokuso I'm used to in karate hehe.
> 
> The instructor was great, really nice guy, was welcoming and patient, wasn't a hard drill sergeant type but he still pushed us.
> 
> One thing I noticed is that the style and dojang were very traditional, and there was alot of etiquette and respect, which I really like. Lots of bowing and thanking the partner, so that was nice and am comfortable with that.
> 
> From what I've read, Tang Soo Tao incorporates meditation, yoga, tai chi and qi gong practices which is really cool, I'm not sure the extent of it, perhaps just very basic practices of them, but I have a feeling it's once you've gone up in the grades that you do that to compliment the art.
> 
> I don't think it was an instant "love connection", but I enjoyed the training. Or maybe I just enjoyed training in a place with other people again haha. Anyways, I'll train Friday too and go from there .
> 
> But filled with a newfound confidence in myself that I can indeed do this, and start again. Even the initial phone call is incredibly hard for me, so hard to explain haha, and rocking up to a new place training with new people in a new style, unsure if my physical stuff can hold up... But I managed well tonight, and no longer want my ailment to hold me back in life. Quite proud.


Sounds like a good fit. Glad you're back in the game!


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> Sounds like a good fit. Glad you're back in the game!


Thanks, me too .

I'm also trying to not be so picky, but I don't know 100% what I'm looking for in a style. I know alot of things that I'm drawn to.... I guess I'll know when I know. But I can't rely on being totally in love with it. I've seen teachers who teach in a way that just resonate with me to the very core of my being, but it may be unfair of me to expect to find that...

So this is the challenge thus far...

1) Keeping my mind open enough to explore other styles and realising that I may not find some ideal 'perfect' style that ticks every single box.

But also:

2) Not just settling for what's around, to really give myself the time and patience to train around and learn to listen to what my gut and heart are telling me. Learning to feel what I really connect and click with. It's going to be something I'm going to want to commit to for a long time, so I want it to be something that I get much joy out of doing, and something which reflects where I am in life. Subject to change I guess, but I'm learning what I value and prioritise in life.


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Hehe, and it is literally just round the corner from my home!
> 
> Really enjoyed the training! Obviously the Korean terminology was different to get used to, but I managed to slot in well with my foundation, and obvious slight technical differences.
> 
> The breathing they did was different too, rather fascinating! They all did a "choo" sound with techniques, and the last technique in a series was like a "tsaaaa". They still did the normal kiai/kihap shout at finishing points.
> 
> Did some standing basics, moving basics and combos combining kicks and punches.
> 
> Did an interesting movement when moving in fighting stance which took some getting used to, it was almost like an arm swing to our open side and snapping it back in guard position. Not sure what it was exactly!
> 
> We did alot of bagwork and paddlework too which was fun. Got dizzy from the spinning back kicks and spinning inside crescent kicks hehe but I surprised myself with my balance, ability to generate power, and my accuracy with techniques onto the pads seeing as I haven't done that type of training in awhile.
> 
> Was actually a tough class fitness-wise, my cardio needs a little work hehe.
> 
> Did some forms which I knew (basic forms, the universal 1st form etc).
> 
> I loved the way we started and ended class, the crosslegged meditation was about 1-2 minutes or so that he guided us through. Not the 3 or 4 second mokuso I'm used to in karate hehe.
> 
> The instructor was great, really nice guy, was welcoming and patient, wasn't a hard drill sergeant type but he still pushed us.
> 
> One thing I noticed is that the style and dojang were very traditional, and there was alot of etiquette and respect, which I really like. Lots of bowing and thanking the partner, so that was nice and am comfortable with that.
> 
> From what I've read, Tang Soo Tao incorporates meditation, yoga, tai chi and qi gong practices which is really cool, I'm not sure the extent of it, perhaps just very basic practices of them, but I have a feeling it's once you've gone up in the grades that you do that to compliment the art.
> 
> I don't think it was an instant "love connection", but I enjoyed the training. Or maybe I just enjoyed training in a place with other people again haha. Anyways, I'll train Friday too and go from there .
> 
> But filled with a newfound confidence in myself that I can indeed do this, and start again. Even the initial phone call is incredibly hard for me, so hard to explain haha, and rocking up to a new place training with new people in a new style, unsure if my physical stuff can hold up... But I managed well tonight, and no longer want my ailment to hold me back in life. Quite proud.



Sounds like a great time. One think jumped out at me. You said you did a spinning INSIDE crescent. Is that correct or was it spinning Outside crescents? I am trying to picture the Inside kick and the only was I can picture it is if you take a step after the spin. 
Let us know how the adventure continues.


----------



## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> Sounds like a great time. One think jumped out at me. You said you did a spinning INSIDE crescent. Is that correct or was it spinning Outside crescents? I am trying to picture the Inside kick and the only was I can picture it is if you take a step after the spin.
> Let us know how the adventure continues.



Ahh yes I figured this may come up, in my previous style we called the inside-to-outside crescent kick an inside crescent kick (uchi mawashi geri), even though it's going to the outside. I think other styles would call that outside.

So one combo we did on the paddle in fighting stance with left foot forward, all kicks with right leg, was outside-inside crescent, putting foot where it was to the back, inside-outside crescent, then use the momentum to do the spinning inside-outside crescent.

In my mind this combo is outside, inside, spinning inside, but yeah I can see why others would call them the opposite .

And yeah will keep updates comin haha


----------



## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> Sounds like a great time. One think jumped out at me. You said you did a spinning INSIDE crescent. Is that correct or was it spinning Outside crescents? I am trying to picture the Inside kick and the only was I can picture it is if you take a step after the spin.
> Let us know how the adventure continues.


You can spin with an inside-out crescent and and outside-in crescent.

Right leg kicking inside-out:
You’d jump and turn to your right as the kick’s thrown.

In order to jump and spin, you lift the opposite knee up first, followed by the kicking leg. 

Right leg kicking outside-in:
You’d jump and turn to your left as the kick’s thrown.

For terminology sake in case were calling them different things:

Right inside-out crescent starts at the mid line of the body or just left of it, and goes outside and over your right shoulder. So you’re smacking the right side of the opponent’s face with the outside edge of your right foot. Or going over their head from their right to left.

Outside-in crescent starts away from the midline and goes across it; right foot would smack the left side of their face.


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> You can spin with an inside-out crescent and and outside-in crescent.
> 
> Right leg kicking inside-out:
> You’d jump and turn to your right as the kick’s thrown.
> 
> In order to jump and spin, you lift the opposite knee up first, followed by the kicking leg.
> 
> Right leg kicking outside-in:
> You’d jump and turn to your left as the kick’s thrown.
> 
> For terminology sake in case were calling them different things:
> 
> Right inside-out crescent starts at the mid line of the body or just left of it, and goes outside and over your right shoulder. So you’re smacking the right side of the opponent’s face with the outside edge of your right foot. Or going over their head from their right to left.
> 
> Outside-in crescent starts away from the midline and goes across it; right foot would smack the left side of their face.


Yep this! ^

Not sure what you guys call them in Seido, we always called the inside to out as uchi (inside) mawashi geri, and outside to in as soto (outside) mawashi geri. But then I guess that's why some styles call a inside to outside block as soto uke, whereas I'm used to it as uchi uke. The definition is either where the block is coming from or where it's heading towards!

Oh and we did the spinning crescent kick without the jump, you just spin on the grounded foot. It's quite fun, and you get a really cool feel of using the momentum from the previous kick. Not sure if you can really do the outside to in crescent without the jump, would feel awkward perhaps!


----------



## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> Yep this! ^
> 
> Not sure what you guys call them in Seido, we always called the inside to out as uchi (inside) mawashi geri, and outside to in as soto (outside) mawashi geri. But then I guess that's why some styles call a inside to outside block as soto uke, whereas I'm used to it as uchi uke. The definition is either where the block is coming from or where it's heading towards!
> 
> Oh and we did the spinning crescent kick without the jump, you just spin on the grounded foot. It's quite fun, and you get a really cool feel of using the momentum from the previous kick. Not sure if you can really do the outside to in crescent without the jump, would feel awkward perhaps!


Same as Kyokushin in Seido; inside-out is uchi, outside-in is soto. Kicks and blocks.


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Hehe, and it is literally just round the corner from my home!
> 
> Really enjoyed the training! Obviously the Korean terminology was different to get used to, but I managed to slot in well with my foundation, and obvious slight technical differences.
> 
> The breathing they did was different too, rather fascinating! They all did a "choo" sound with techniques, and the last technique in a series was like a "tsaaaa". They still did the normal kiai/kihap shout at finishing points.
> 
> Did some standing basics, moving basics and combos combining kicks and punches.
> 
> Did an interesting movement when moving in fighting stance which took some getting used to, it was almost like an arm swing to our open side and snapping it back in guard position. Not sure what it was exactly!
> 
> We did alot of bagwork and paddlework too which was fun. Got dizzy from the spinning back kicks and spinning inside crescent kicks hehe but I surprised myself with my balance, ability to generate power, and my accuracy with techniques onto the pads seeing as I haven't done that type of training in awhile.
> 
> Was actually a tough class fitness-wise, my cardio needs a little work hehe.
> 
> Did some forms which I knew (basic forms, the universal 1st form etc).
> 
> I loved the way we started and ended class, the crosslegged meditation was about 1-2 minutes or so that he guided us through. Not the 3 or 4 second mokuso I'm used to in karate hehe.
> 
> The instructor was great, really nice guy, was welcoming and patient, wasn't a hard drill sergeant type but he still pushed us.
> 
> One thing I noticed is that the style and dojang were very traditional, and there was alot of etiquette and respect, which I really like. Lots of bowing and thanking the partner, so that was nice and am comfortable with that.
> 
> From what I've read, Tang Soo Tao incorporates meditation, yoga, tai chi and qi gong practices which is really cool, I'm not sure the extent of it, perhaps just very basic practices of them, but I have a feeling it's once you've gone up in the grades that you do that to compliment the art.
> 
> I don't think it was an instant "love connection", but I enjoyed the training. Or maybe I just enjoyed training in a place with other people again haha. Anyways, I'll train Friday too and go from there .
> 
> But filled with a newfound confidence in myself that I can indeed do this, and start again. Even the initial phone call is incredibly hard for me, so hard to explain haha, and rocking up to a new place training with new people in a new style, unsure if my physical stuff can hold up... But I managed well tonight, and no longer want my ailment to hold me back in life. Quite proud.


Congratulations in finding a new prospective home, Simon.  Hopefully it will be the environment that will bring you back to where you want to be.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> Congratulations in finding a new prospective home, Simon.  Hopefully it will be the environment that will bring you back to where you want to be.


Thanks so much . Still in trialling mode and gonna still try out some other places on my list. It's quite a process but I'd like to be sure what I'm committing to


----------



## Deleted member 40465

Sounds like lineage will not be a problem if they trained under Sosai Oyama, definitely sounds like its worth a try if the style matches your goals. Good luck on your journey.


----------



## _Simon_

boldeagle67 said:


> Sounds like lineage will not be a problem if they trained under Sosai Oyama, definitely sounds like its worth a try if the style matches your goals. Good luck on your journey.


Cheers appreciate it! Ah yep I'm guessing you're referring to my first post. Yeah that instructor trained in a few styles, coming from very very tough Kyokushin days, to refining and evolving into a softer approach. To be honest my thoughts keep going back to last year when I trained there... it sounds more in line with how I want to train and what approach I want to take, and I could train in the Aikido classes he holds too (as he only has one karate class a week unfortunately).

That thought keeps popping up... only thing is I do like a bit of intensity in training every now and then and the training wasn't too instance. And I don't think there's much free sparring at all, but moreso partner drills.

If I really resonate with Sensei Rick Hotton's aiki karate, perhaps this would be the closest I could get to it...

Any thoughts or feedback on this is fully welcome by the way, I respect you guys and your insight a great deal


----------



## _Simon_

Hmm.... had another session tonight and it was pretty cool, did some one-step and block-counter drills, patterns etc.

Instructor chatted with a couple of us newbies just explaining what the fees are etc, all good there. I left to grab my bag, and was about to leave when he called me back over to chat.

... it was a little odd. He was sort of asking me about my training around and trying different styles, asking well what's my reason for that. And I kindly just explained I'm just trialling some styles out to get a feel for them and see what I really resonate and connect with before I really commit. And he kept being under the impression that I was trying this and that and taking bits for my toolbox. I reassured him no it's just for my own exploring, just wanting to make sure I've found something that suits me.

Well he said to me well you can't be training this and that, and if you train here you can't train elsewhere. He also said he was aware I was still helping out in the kids class in my old dojo, and that I can't be training multiple styles, it's just not gonna work, and that I have to pick one or the other.

He said it would be too confusing for his students, and moreso confusing for myself. Made the analogy of playing in two different basketball teams, which didn't really make sense.

...... it was just odd, and to be honest a bit off-putting. I totally get what he means in terms of it can be very confusing training more than one style at the same time (which I was never going to do anyway), and can be difficult to make progress. And certainly you can mix up techniques etc.

My issue was with him using multiple times the word "can't". It felt like he was telling me what I could and could not do...

I told him ah yeah I do respect what he's saying and understand completely that it can be tricky training multiple styles, but it felt like there was something more behind what he was saying.

If he had have said "Ah yeah it's not the best idea to train multiple styles as it can be hard to not mix them up" I would have gotten that, but there was a strange energy behind what he said, as though he won't allow it.

I wasn't planning on training multiple styles at once anyway (wasn't too sure about continuing helping in the kid's class), but it just felt a little..... off. I have heard of this sort of thing in martial arts before, but never experienced it. Just the black and white you can't train two styles, feels a bit controlling.

I don't know... anyone have any thoughts on this? Was also odd that he brought it up on my second night there. Would make more sense if I'd been there for a bit longer. Or even if I was training two styles, if I clearly was struggling with progressing in the curriculum or technique as a result then I would expect him to bring it up.

Part of me gets what he means... and part of me thinks well it's my decision and responsibility...

??


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Hmm.... had another session tonight and it was pretty cool, did some one-step and block-counter drills, patterns etc.
> 
> Instructor chatted with a couple of us newbies just explaining what the fees are etc, all good there. I left to grab my bag, and was about to leave when he called me back over to chat.
> 
> ... it was a little odd. He was sort of asking me about my training around and trying different styles, asking well what's my reason for that. And I kindly just explained I'm just trialling some styles out to get a feel for them and see what I really resonate and connect with before I really commit. And he kept being under the impression that I was trying this and that and taking bits for my toolbox. I reassured him no it's just for my own exploring, just wanting to make sure I've found something that suits me.
> 
> Well he said to me well you can't be training this and that, and if you train here you can't train elsewhere. He also said he was aware I was still helping out in the kids class in my old dojo, and that I can't be training multiple styles, it's just not gonna work, and that I have to pick one or the other.
> 
> He said it would be too confusing for his students, and moreso confusing for myself. Made the analogy of playing in two different basketball teams, which didn't really make sense.
> 
> ...... it was just odd, and to be honest a bit off-putting. I totally get what he means in terms of it can be very confusing training more than one style at the same time (which I was never going to do anyway), and can be difficult to make progress. And certainly you can mix up techniques etc.
> 
> My issue was with him using multiple times the word "can't". It felt like he was telling me what I could and could not do...
> 
> I told him ah yeah I do respect what he's saying and understand completely that it can be tricky training multiple styles, but it felt like there was something more behind what he was saying.
> 
> If he had have said "Ah yeah it's not the best idea to train multiple styles as it can be hard to not mix them up" I would have gotten that, but there was a strange energy behind what he said, as though he won't allow it.
> 
> I wasn't planning on training multiple styles at once anyway (wasn't too sure about continuing helping in the kid's class), but it just felt a little..... off. I have heard of this sort of thing in martial arts before, but never experienced it. Just the black and white you can't train two styles, feels a bit controlling.
> 
> I don't know... anyone have any thoughts on this? Was also odd that he brought it up on my second night there. Would make more sense if I'd been there for a bit longer. Or even if I was training two styles, if I clearly was struggling with progressing in the curriculum or technique as a result then I would expect him to bring it up.
> 
> Part of me gets what he means... and part of me thinks well it's my decision and responsibility...
> 
> ??


Hey Simon, let me put it to you this way, sometimes you meet a girl that doesn't want to give up the 'cookie' until you go steady.  Other times you meet a girl that enjoys giving 'cookies' to anyone she likes.  Is one better than the other ?  No they are just different but that doesn't mean that you will like them both the same.   You can't change where, when or who they will give the 'cookies' too but you can change whether you want to be there to accept it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Hmm.... had another session tonight and it was pretty cool, did some one-step and block-counter drills, patterns etc.
> 
> Instructor chatted with a couple of us newbies just explaining what the fees are etc, all good there. I left to grab my bag, and was about to leave when he called me back over to chat.
> 
> ... it was a little odd. He was sort of asking me about my training around and trying different styles, asking well what's my reason for that. And I kindly just explained I'm just trialling some styles out to get a feel for them and see what I really resonate and connect with before I really commit. And he kept being under the impression that I was trying this and that and taking bits for my toolbox. I reassured him no it's just for my own exploring, just wanting to make sure I've found something that suits me.
> 
> Well he said to me well you can't be training this and that, and if you train here you can't train elsewhere. He also said he was aware I was still helping out in the kids class in my old dojo, and that I can't be training multiple styles, it's just not gonna work, and that I have to pick one or the other.
> 
> He said it would be too confusing for his students, and moreso confusing for myself. Made the analogy of playing in two different basketball teams, which didn't really make sense.
> 
> ...... it was just odd, and to be honest a bit off-putting. I totally get what he means in terms of it can be very confusing training more than one style at the same time (which I was never going to do anyway), and can be difficult to make progress. And certainly you can mix up techniques etc.
> 
> My issue was with him using multiple times the word "can't". It felt like he was telling me what I could and could not do...
> 
> I told him ah yeah I do respect what he's saying and understand completely that it can be tricky training multiple styles, but it felt like there was something more behind what he was saying.
> 
> If he had have said "Ah yeah it's not the best idea to train multiple styles as it can be hard to not mix them up" I would have gotten that, but there was a strange energy behind what he said, as though he won't allow it.
> 
> I wasn't planning on training multiple styles at once anyway (wasn't too sure about continuing helping in the kid's class), but it just felt a little..... off. I have heard of this sort of thing in martial arts before, but never experienced it. Just the black and white you can't train two styles, feels a bit controlling.
> 
> I don't know... anyone have any thoughts on this? Was also odd that he brought it up on my second night there. Would make more sense if I'd been there for a bit longer. Or even if I was training two styles, if I clearly was struggling with progressing in the curriculum or technique as a result then I would expect him to bring it up.
> 
> Part of me gets what he means... and part of me thinks well it's my decision and responsibility...
> 
> ??


I would have to respectfully ask if he's saying he doesn't allow people to train with him if they are doing something else. I'm pretty sure you know what my response would be if he said, "Yes." I'd ask very respectfully, because he may simply be mis-speaking, meaning to say it's not a good idea.


----------



## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> Hmm.... had another session tonight and it was pretty cool, did some one-step and block-counter drills, patterns etc.
> 
> Instructor chatted with a couple of us newbies just explaining what the fees are etc, all good there. I left to grab my bag, and was about to leave when he called me back over to chat.
> 
> ... it was a little odd. He was sort of asking me about my training around and trying different styles, asking well what's my reason for that. And I kindly just explained I'm just trialling some styles out to get a feel for them and see what I really resonate and connect with before I really commit. And he kept being under the impression that I was trying this and that and taking bits for my toolbox. I reassured him no it's just for my own exploring, just wanting to make sure I've found something that suits me.
> 
> Well he said to me well you can't be training this and that, and if you train here you can't train elsewhere. He also said he was aware I was still helping out in the kids class in my old dojo, and that I can't be training multiple styles, it's just not gonna work, and that I have to pick one or the other.
> 
> He said it would be too confusing for his students, and moreso confusing for myself. Made the analogy of playing in two different basketball teams, which didn't really make sense.
> 
> ...... it was just odd, and to be honest a bit off-putting. I totally get what he means in terms of it can be very confusing training more than one style at the same time (which I was never going to do anyway), and can be difficult to make progress. And certainly you can mix up techniques etc.
> 
> My issue was with him using multiple times the word "can't". It felt like he was telling me what I could and could not do...
> 
> I told him ah yeah I do respect what he's saying and understand completely that it can be tricky training multiple styles, but it felt like there was something more behind what he was saying.
> 
> If he had have said "Ah yeah it's not the best idea to train multiple styles as it can be hard to not mix them up" I would have gotten that, but there was a strange energy behind what he said, as though he won't allow it.
> 
> I wasn't planning on training multiple styles at once anyway (wasn't too sure about continuing helping in the kid's class), but it just felt a little..... off. I have heard of this sort of thing in martial arts before, but never experienced it. Just the black and white you can't train two styles, feels a bit controlling.
> 
> I don't know... anyone have any thoughts on this? Was also odd that he brought it up on my second night there. Would make more sense if I'd been there for a bit longer. Or even if I was training two styles, if I clearly was struggling with progressing in the curriculum or technique as a result then I would expect him to bring it up.
> 
> Part of me gets what he means... and part of me thinks well it's my decision and responsibility...
> 
> ??


Playing devil’s advocate:
He doesn’t want you training whenever you feel like it, cherry picking techniques and strategy to learn, then turning around and teaching that to others. He wants a dedicated and committed student who’s going to learn everything he teaches as a system/comprehensive curriculum rather than just wanting to learn bits and pieces as you wish. 

My feelings on him based solely on what you’ve said:

What you do outside of his class is none of his business. Unless you’re bringing negative attention to his school and name or are teaching what he’s teaching you without his permission. 

You probably both have some wrong ideas about each other’s intentions. How wrong is the question. 

I say it here all the time: the most important thing is who you’re learning from and who you’re training alongside. There’s no perfect style. Why do you continue to associate with the Kyokushin group? The people. Plain and simple IMO. Sure the style has something to do with it, but if they weren’t who they are, you’d pretty much sever your ties and be done.

How should you handle the current situation? Be done with it. The guy doesn’t want you anywhere else, and you don’t want to be told who to associate with in what capacity.


----------



## DaveB

Sounds a little cultish to me.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> Hey Simon, let me put it to you this way, sometimes you meet a girl that doesn't want to give up the 'cookie' until you go steady.  Other times you meet a girl that enjoys giving 'cookies' to anyone she likes.  Is one better than the other ?  No they are just different but that doesn't mean that you will like them both the same.   You can't change where, when or who they will give the 'cookies' too but you can change whether you want to be there to accept it.



Thanks for the feedback!

Hehe, still trying to decipher this one XD

Are saying that I should either: Accept it or move on.

Or that neither approach is necessarily wrong, just different, and it's up to me what to choose to do?

True, and for sure I'm not saying it's a wrong approach, it just feels a little icky to me. I respect keeping a commitment to one style so as not to confuse progress. But to say I can't do two is strange to impose...

But if that is the condition for training there, fair enough I respect that, just doesn't make sense to me personally.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> I would have to respectfully ask if he's saying he doesn't allow people to train with him if they are doing something else. I'm pretty sure you know what my response would be if he said, "Yes." I'd ask very respectfully, because he may simply be mis-speaking, meaning to say it's not a good idea.



Yeah that's what I'm wondering... it honestly felt like there was more behind it, and I can usually sense when something is off or when there are red flags.

It felt very definitive from him, he seemed very forceful in his speech and behaviour that I cannot do that. It's either one or the other, and said for his dojang it's not good.

So I got the sense that if I was to train in something else as well on the side, he would pull me to the side and get me to choose, and wouldn't allow it.

That's the thing, I'm not planning on doing two styles. But do I want to train in an environment that has that umm... for lack of a better word, enforced loyalty in place?

Hmm... I'm a bit conflicted with this!

And to not even be able to help in the kid's class anymore for my old dojo...


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> Playing devil’s advocate:
> He doesn’t want you training whenever you feel like it, cherry picking techniques and strategy to learn, then turning around and teaching that to others. He wants a dedicated and committed student who’s going to learn everything he teaches as a system/comprehensive curriculum rather than just wanting to learn bits and pieces as you wish.
> 
> My feelings on him based solely on what you’ve said:
> 
> What you do outside of his class is none of his business. Unless you’re bringing negative attention to his school and name or are teaching what he’s teaching you without his permission.
> 
> You probably both have some wrong ideas about each other’s intentions. How wrong is the question.
> 
> I say it here all the time: the most important thing is who you’re learning from and who you’re training alongside. There’s no perfect style. Why do you continue to associate with the Kyokushin group? The people. Plain and simple IMO. Sure the style has something to do with it, but if they weren’t who they are, you’d pretty much sever your ties and be done.
> 
> How should you handle the current situation? Be done with it. The guy doesn’t want you anywhere else, and you don’t want to be told who to associate with in what capacity.



Appreciate both sides there!

Yeah I made clear to him my intention was solely to find a good fit, and not just to pick up bits here and there to sell them off somewhere, nor even for my own benefit to accumulate them. I made clear to him it's a process of finding what I want to ultimately commit to.

And yeah, if I'm bringing his school a bad name or negative influence, absolutely that's cause for bringing all this up.

Yeah for sure it's possible we've misunderstood each other.

It seems to be a tradition he's been brought up in, so I can agree to disagree and leave. Or if I enjoy it and want to commit, then it won't even come up I guess.

It's just...... a weird feeling about this all..... :s

I don't even know if I want to try a couple more weeks or not, the interaction left a really bad taste in my mouth.


----------



## _Simon_

DaveB said:


> Sounds a little cultish to me.


That's what it felt like... it felt possessive and controlling rather than just a passing thought letting me know that it's hard to make progress with more than one style, and his energy and behaviour suggested the former moreso than anything else.

I mean, just a thought.... if I played basketball.. why couldn't I play football too :s


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah that's what I'm wondering... it honestly felt like there was more behind it, and I can usually sense when something is off or when there are red flags.
> 
> It felt very definitive from him, he seemed very forceful in his speech and behaviour that I cannot do that. It's either one or the other, and said for his dojang it's not good.
> 
> So I got the sense that if I was to train in something else as well on the side, he would pull me to the side and get me to choose, and wouldn't allow it.
> 
> That's the thing, I'm not planning on doing two styles. But do I want to train in an environment that has that umm... for lack of a better word, enforced loyalty in place?
> 
> Hmm... I'm a bit conflicted with this!
> 
> And to not even be able to help in the kid's class anymore for my old dojo...


Obviously, you'll have to decide for yourself. If it were me, I simply couldn't train there. I would expect him to also have a right/wrong attitude about how things are done, and in my experience that degrades a system over time.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> That's what it felt like... it felt possessive and controlling rather than just a passing thought letting me know that it's hard to make progress with more than one style, and his energy and behaviour suggested the former moreso than anything else.
> 
> I mean, just a thought.... if I played basketball.. why couldn't I play football too :s


And that's why I would ask. It's clear you don't like the implications, but like training there. Before I'd give up on it, I'd ask - just to be sure there wasn't a misunderstanding.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> Obviously, you'll have to decide for yourself. If it were me, I simply couldn't train there. I would expect him to also have a right/wrong attitude about how things are done, and in my experience that degrades a system over time.





gpseymour said:


> And that's why I would ask. It's clear you don't like the implications, but like training there. Before I'd give up on it, I'd ask - just to be sure there wasn't a misunderstanding.



Yeah I have an uneasy feeling about training there. It wasn't an instant love of the place, I think I moreso enjoyed training in a dojo/dojang again more than anything.

More than anything I want to feel comfortable with where I'm training and who I'm learning from but you're right in terms of clearing it up. Always appreciate your insights and thoughts.

We'll see if I can muster up the courage to ask, or do what I feel I'm leaning towards...


----------



## mrt2

_Simon_ said:


> Hmm.... had another session tonight and it was pretty cool, did some one-step and block-counter drills, patterns etc.
> 
> Instructor chatted with a couple of us newbies just explaining what the fees are etc, all good there. I left to grab my bag, and was about to leave when he called me back over to chat.
> 
> ... it was a little odd. He was sort of asking me about my training around and trying different styles, asking well what's my reason for that. And I kindly just explained I'm just trialling some styles out to get a feel for them and see what I really resonate and connect with before I really commit. And he kept being under the impression that I was trying this and that and taking bits for my toolbox. I reassured him no it's just for my own exploring, just wanting to make sure I've found something that suits me.
> 
> Well he said to me well you can't be training this and that, and if you train here you can't train elsewhere. He also said he was aware I was still helping out in the kids class in my old dojo, and that I can't be training multiple styles, it's just not gonna work, and that I have to pick one or the other.
> 
> He said it would be too confusing for his students, and moreso confusing for myself. Made the analogy of playing in two different basketball teams, which didn't really make sense.
> 
> ...... it was just odd, and to be honest a bit off-putting. I totally get what he means in terms of it can be very confusing training more than one style at the same time (which I was never going to do anyway), and can be difficult to make progress. And certainly you can mix up techniques etc.
> 
> My issue was with him using multiple times the word "can't". It felt like he was telling me what I could and could not do...
> 
> I told him ah yeah I do respect what he's saying and understand completely that it can be tricky training multiple styles, but it felt like there was something more behind what he was saying.
> 
> If he had have said "Ah yeah it's not the best idea to train multiple styles as it can be hard to not mix them up" I would have gotten that, but there was a strange energy behind what he said, as though he won't allow it.
> 
> I wasn't planning on training multiple styles at once anyway (wasn't too sure about continuing helping in the kid's class), but it just felt a little..... off. I have heard of this sort of thing in martial arts before, but never experienced it. Just the black and white you can't train two styles, feels a bit controlling.
> 
> I don't know... anyone have any thoughts on this? Was also odd that he brought it up on my second night there. Would make more sense if I'd been there for a bit longer. Or even if I was training two styles, if I clearly was struggling with progressing in the curriculum or technique as a result then I would expect him to bring it up.
> 
> Part of me gets what he means... and part of me thinks well it's my decision and responsibility...
> 
> ??


While the instructor sounds very traditional, I think you should move on.  

One the one hand, I can see how in traditional martial arts, you can only have one master who guides your instruction and teaches you an entire curricullum.    And if you were a complete beginner, this might make some sense.  

But you aren't a complete beginner and so long as you aren't disrupting his classes, what you do outside of his classes is none of his business.  It sounds like a power play, where your teacher is trying to control what you learn.  Moreover, I think we are way past the notion of a "pure style".  Look for a teacher who supports what you are trying to do.


----------



## Headhunter

_Simon_ said:


> Hmm.... had another session tonight and it was pretty cool, did some one-step and block-counter drills, patterns etc.
> 
> Instructor chatted with a couple of us newbies just explaining what the fees are etc, all good there. I left to grab my bag, and was about to leave when he called me back over to chat.
> 
> ... it was a little odd. He was sort of asking me about my training around and trying different styles, asking well what's my reason for that. And I kindly just explained I'm just trialling some styles out to get a feel for them and see what I really resonate and connect with before I really commit. And he kept being under the impression that I was trying this and that and taking bits for my toolbox. I reassured him no it's just for my own exploring, just wanting to make sure I've found something that suits me.
> 
> Well he said to me well you can't be training this and that, and if you train here you can't train elsewhere. He also said he was aware I was still helping out in the kids class in my old dojo, and that I can't be training multiple styles, it's just not gonna work, and that I have to pick one or the other.
> 
> He said it would be too confusing for his students, and moreso confusing for myself. Made the analogy of playing in two different basketball teams, which didn't really make sense.
> 
> ...... it was just odd, and to be honest a bit off-putting. I totally get what he means in terms of it can be very confusing training more than one style at the same time (which I was never going to do anyway), and can be difficult to make progress. And certainly you can mix up techniques etc.
> 
> My issue was with him using multiple times the word "can't". It felt like he was telling me what I could and could not do...
> 
> I told him ah yeah I do respect what he's saying and understand completely that it can be tricky training multiple styles, but it felt like there was something more behind what he was saying.
> 
> If he had have said "Ah yeah it's not the best idea to train multiple styles as it can be hard to not mix them up" I would have gotten that, but there was a strange energy behind what he said, as though he won't allow it.
> 
> I wasn't planning on training multiple styles at once anyway (wasn't too sure about continuing helping in the kid's class), but it just felt a little..... off. I have heard of this sort of thing in martial arts before, but never experienced it. Just the black and white you can't train two styles, feels a bit controlling.
> 
> I don't know... anyone have any thoughts on this? Was also odd that he brought it up on my second night there. Would make more sense if I'd been there for a bit longer. Or even if I was training two styles, if I clearly was struggling with progressing in the curriculum or technique as a result then I would expect him to bring it up.
> 
> Part of me gets what he means... and part of me thinks well it's my decision and responsibility...
> 
> ??


Well if he'd said that to me. He wouldn't see me again. If an instructor is trying to control what you do outside of the classes then that's a cult mentality. It's none of his business what I do with my free time. Hes not a god or anything at all outside of his club. He's a regular normal person in the street outside of training and I'm a grown man. I'm not going to be told what I can and can't do with my life by this guy with insecurity issues. Imo get on Google and find a new club


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> Well if he'd said that to me. He wouldn't see me again. If an instructor is trying to control what you do outside of the classes then that's a cult mentality. It's none of his business what I do with my free time. Hes not a god or anything at all outside of his club. He's a regular normal person in the street outside of training and I'm a grown man. I'm not going to be told what I can and can't do with my life by this guy with insecurity issues. Imo get on Google and find a new club


I think calling it a cult mentality may be overstating the issue, HH. I think in most cases, folks who say "you can't train in something else" are simply parroting what they've been told is a proper approach. It's not about (to that person) controlling other people, but about keeping things pure. I don't agree with the approach, at all, and I'm not at all convinced it's even particularly traditional, though some folks seem to think it's the traditional approach.


----------



## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> I think calling it a cult mentality may be overstating the issue, HH. I think in most cases, folks who say "you can't train in something else" are simply parroting what they've been told is a proper approach. It's not about (to that person) controlling other people, but about keeping things pure. I don't agree with the approach, at all, and I'm not at all convinced it's even particularly traditional, though some folks seem to think it's the traditional approach.


All the founders of the major karate systems today - Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Wado Ryu, et al all had multiple teachers. Many had more than one teacher at the same time for a period.

Saying someone can only have one teacher because that’s the traditional way is either misinformed, delusional, or insecure. Or a combination of those.

Saying @_Simon_ SHOULD only have one teacher is far better and more realistic than saying he HAS TO have only one teacher. I understand if a teacher says you should only have one teacher because you should focus on that one style until you’ve got depth to your training. But if a teacher told me I had to make a choice between his school and another one I was attending, I’d easily make a choice - the other school. That is unless of course I’m a live-in protege of a world famous person who’s training me to become his disciple. Like if Pablo Picasso told me he doesn’t want me as his student if I’m learning from others too. But unless they’re at a Picasso level, I’m doing my own thing during my own time.

If Hajime Kazumi (Kyokushin guys know his name) was training me to compete and told me he didn’t want me learning from others because it was contradicting what he was teaching (the techniques, strategy, etc.), then I’d do what he said. Kazumi’s argument would hold water - he’s arguably the best knockdown fighter Kyokushin ever produced. Anything short of him saying that, I’m out.


----------



## _Simon_

mrt2 said:


> While the instructor sounds very traditional, I think you should move on.
> 
> One the one hand, I can see how in traditional martial arts, you can only have one master who guides your instruction and teaches you an entire curricullum.    And if you were a complete beginner, this might make some sense.
> 
> But you aren't a complete beginner and so long as you aren't disrupting his classes, what you do outside of his classes is none of his business.  It sounds like a power play, where your teacher is trying to control what you learn.  Moreover, I think we are way past the notion of a "pure style".  Look for a teacher who supports what you are trying to do.



Yeah that makes total sense, as long as I'm not disrupting the class or "damaging" it. And yes, I've had some great instructors who have been so supportive of my path and what I'm doing now.


----------



## _Simon_

Headhunter said:


> Well if he'd said that to me. He wouldn't see me again. If an instructor is trying to control what you do outside of the classes then that's a cult mentality. It's none of his business what I do with my free time. Hes not a god or anything at all outside of his club. He's a regular normal person in the street outside of training and I'm a grown man. I'm not going to be told what I can and can't do with my life by this guy with insecurity issues. Imo get on Google and find a new club



Cheers appreciate that HH, and yeah I think what's been talked about before on these forums is interesting regarding martial arts sometimes developing some strange quasi-universe and traditions that you don't really find in alot of other sports/activities. Strange loyalties and different rules...


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> All the founders of the major karate systems today - Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Wado Ryu, et al all had multiple teachers. Many had more than one teacher at the same time for a period.
> 
> Saying someone can only have one teacher because that’s the traditional way is either misinformed, delusional, or insecure. Or a combination of those.
> 
> Saying @_Simon_ SHOULD only have one teacher is far better and more realistic than saying he HAS TO have only one teacher. I understand if a teacher says you should only have one teacher because you should focus on that one style until you’ve got depth to your training. But if a teacher told me I had to make a choice between his school and another one I was attending, I’d easily make a choice - the other school. That is unless of course I’m a live-in protege of a world famous person who’s training me to become his disciple. Like if Pablo Picasso told me he doesn’t want me as his student if I’m learning from others too. But unless they’re at a Picasso level, I’m doing my own thing during my own time.
> 
> If Hajime Kazumi (Kyokushin guys know his name) was training me to compete and told me he didn’t want me learning from others because it was contradicting what he was teaching (the techniques, strategy, etc.), then I’d do what he said. Kazumi’s argument would hold water - he’s arguably the best knockdown fighter Kyokushin ever produced. Anything short of him saying that, I’m out.



Yeah well said mate.

It was just a strange interaction, saying I can't be doing that, and it's either one or the other. I don't know if it's a Tang Soo thing or just this fellow.

I remember when I first sat in to watch a class late last year, and I mentioned about still helping out in the kid's class, and he said something like, so how's that gonna work, and well that's not really gonna work is it. I was taken aback by it as it felt like such an irrelevant thing, but seemed important to him I guess.

All this discussion has been incredibly helpful, so thank you guys. At least it's let me know I'm not crazy haha. And it's given me awareness of what to look for in other schools.

And yeeeep, learning under Kazumi would be unreal


----------



## Vivian.Gee

Have you considered training in no touch martial art forms?


----------



## _Simon_

Vivian.Gee said:


> Have you considered training in no touch martial art forms?


Wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole!

*lame attempt at a joke* XD

G'day and welcome! Nah never really considered it, not really sure what that entails either. Do you mean a style that does mainly forms, or one which has no-touch methods? I don't think there's anything like that close to me anyways.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah well said mate.
> 
> It was just a strange interaction, saying I can't be doing that, and it's either one or the other. I don't know if it's a Tang Soo thing or just this fellow.
> 
> I remember when I first sat in to watch a class late last year, and I mentioned about still helping out in the kid's class, and he said something like, so how's that gonna work, and well that's not really gonna work is it. I was taken aback by it as it felt like such an irrelevant thing, but seemed important to him I guess.
> 
> All this discussion has been incredibly helpful, so thank you guys. At least it's let me know I'm not crazy haha. And it's given me awareness of what to look for in other schools.
> 
> And yeeeep, learning under Kazumi would be unreal


Anytime you see that, it's a fairly safe assumption it's the person, not the style. Sometimes it'll be a large collection of persons doing the same thing, but you'll nearly always be able to find someone in the same style who isn't so secretive or controlling or misinformed.


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Thanks for the feedback!
> 
> Hehe, still trying to decipher this one XD
> 
> Are saying that I should either: Accept it or move on.
> 
> Or that neither approach is necessarily wrong, just different, and it's up to me what to choose to do?
> 
> True, and for sure I'm not saying it's a wrong approach, it just feels a little icky to me. I respect keeping a commitment to one style so as not to confuse progress. But to say I can't do two is strange to impose...
> 
> But if that is the condition for training there, fair enough I respect that, just doesn't make sense to me personally.


Hey Simon,

The point I was trying to make was that you can only control your reaction to something that is said to you.  You cannot control the person saying it.  

There are many instances I can think of that have clubs or schools that want to restrict the activities of their athletes.   Especially in higher level sports where the risk of injury increases when athletes are playing multiple contact sports.  There are certain clubs that are pursuing 'excellence' and they want their athletes to commit to their club and their sport to the exclusion of others.  The argument is that an athlete focused on one sport will excel faster than an athlete that is focused on many as more time is dedicated to learning the sport.  The chances of injury are also better controlled as the athlete is under the supervision of the club's trainers.  

To be clear, I do not subscribe to these beliefs and in actuality I believe that kids especially should NOT focus on one sport until they become an age where they can make that decision for themselves (they are the ones that have to make the commitment and sacrifice to pursue excellence after all).  Still it doesn't mean that I do not understand that this mentality exists and there are many people that subscribe to that way of thinking.  What they choose for their children and for themselves is their business.  

All this being said, you are not quite a child any longer and you are able to choose wisely for yourself.   If you aren't comfortable joining a club with this type of restriction then it is best for you to move on.   Hopefully you will find a club whose policies will make you feel more comfortable and will resonate with you in the way you want to train.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> Hey Simon,
> 
> The point I was trying to make was that you can only control your reaction to something that is said to you.  You cannot control the person saying it.
> 
> There are many instances I can think of that have clubs or schools that want to restrict the activities of their athletes.   Especially in higher level sports where the risk of injury increases when athletes are playing multiple contact sports.  There are certain clubs that are pursuing 'excellence' and they want their athletes to commit to their club and their sport to the exclusion of others.  The argument is that an athlete focused on one sport will excel faster than an athlete that is focused on many as more time is dedicated to learning the sport.  The chances of injury are also better controlled as the athlete is under the supervision of the club's trainers.
> 
> To be clear, I do not subscribe to these beliefs and in actuality I believe that kids especially should NOT focus on one sport until they become an age where they can make that decision for themselves (they are the ones that have to make the commitment and sacrifice to pursue excellence after all).  Still it doesn't mean that I do not understand that this mentality exists and there are many people that subscribe to that way of thinking.  What they choose for their children and for themselves is their business.
> 
> All this being said, you are not quite a child any longer and you are able to choose wisely for yourself.   If you aren't comfortable joining a club with this type of restriction then it is best for you to move on.   Hopefully you will find a club whose policies will make you feel more comfortable and will resonate with you in the way you want to train.



Osu thanks mate that makes alot of sense. Yeah I guess it is a practice that's still around in some places, and you're right it's not for me to change. I can either train there or not, and in the end it has to be somewhere I am comfortable with. I can understand both sides, but one of them makes more sense to me for sure.


----------



## Deleted member 40465

_Simon_ said:


> Cheers appreciate it! Ah yep I'm guessing you're referring to my first post. Yeah that instructor trained in a few styles, coming from very very tough Kyokushin days, to refining and evolving into a softer approach. To be honest my thoughts keep going back to last year when I trained there... it sounds more in line with how I want to train and what approach I want to take, and I could train in the Aikido classes he holds too (as he only has one karate class a week unfortunately).
> 
> That thought keeps popping up... only thing is I do like a bit of intensity in training every now and then and the training wasn't too instance. And I don't think there's much free sparring at all, but moreso partner drills.
> 
> If I really resonate with Sensei Rick Hotton's aiki karate, perhaps this would be the closest I could get to it...
> 
> Any thoughts or feedback on this is fully welcome by the way, I respect you guys and your insight a great deal


That is a tuffy. I understand the need for intense sparring, once you've had it you really can't go back to point sparring (or at least I got depressed when I tried Lol) 

If it is Kyokushin you miss, give them a call. If it is the more intense sparring you desire, maybe there is a Muay Thai or kickboxing place near you?


----------



## _Simon_

boldeagle67 said:


> That is a tuffy. I understand the need for intense sparring, once you've had it you really can't go back to point sparring (or at least I got depressed when I tried Lol)
> 
> If it is Kyokushin you miss, give them a call. If it is the more intense sparring you desire, maybe there is a Muay Thai or kickboxing place near you?



Cheers, ah nah I'm pretty done with intense sparring hehe, and don't plan on going back to Kyokushin. I guess I'm wanting to ease up on myself and explore other options, but every now and then I do really enjoy an intense session.

It's possible I'm asking/expecting too much haha, so trying to remain open to alternate options, but will see where this journey takes me.


----------



## Deleted member 40465

_Simon_ said:


> Cheers, ah nah I'm pretty done with intense sparring hehe, and don't plan on going back to Kyokushin. I guess I'm wanting to ease up on myself and explore other options, but every now and then I do really enjoy an intense session.
> 
> It's possible I'm asking/expecting too much haha, so trying to remain open to alternate options, but will see where this journey takes me.


That's the part that sucks im in the same boat. When you're no longer a spring chicken and you want to explore other styles, I find its hard cause the softer styles will never be the same as the hard stuff in your mind.


----------



## _Simon_

boldeagle67 said:


> That's the part that sucks im in the same boat. When you're no longer a spring chicken and you want to explore other styles, I find its hard cause the softer styles will never be the same as the hard stuff in your mind.



Ah really, hope you find what suits you!

Yeah for sure I know what you mean. And I guess I'm not after anything for super self defense or anything, but I do love having an intense session, it certainly has its place and develops and reminds you of that strength, resilience and perseverance within. I do miss that!

Something with a nice balance of soft/hard that doesn't lean either way to an extreme would be awesome.. but perhaps I've really honed that harder training already so perhaps need to lean into more softer training? Hmmmmmm......


----------



## Deleted member 40465

Soft is good to stay in shape without mangling your body which is important also.


----------



## _Simon_

boldeagle67 said:


> Soft is good to stay in shape without mangling your body which is important also.


Yep definitely, and that's important to me, to be able to train for longevity and health too, and be able to continue to train when older


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah for sure I know what you mean. And I guess I'm not after anything for super self defense or anything, but I do love having an intense session, it certainly has its place and develops and reminds you of that strength, resilience and perseverance within. I do miss that!


Have you tried seeking out other Kyokushin dojos in your area.  Perhaps there is a dojo more suited to what you are looking for but isn't as harsh on the body as your old dojo.  Sounds odd but not all dojos are the same.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> Have you tried seeking out other Kyokushin dojos in your area.  Perhaps there is a dojo more suited to what you are looking for but isn't as harsh on the body as your old dojo.  Sounds odd but not all dojos are the same.



That's a fair idea actually, I remember there was one Sensei who used to also help out in our dojo, but left our branch after not being happy with things. But every time he took the class I really loved it and got so much out of it. We still did some harder stuff, but we'd do really cool exercises and break things down alot more, had more focused sections, I've always been grateful to him and I emailed him that when he left the branch, was sad that he left.

But that is an idea, I'd be happy to train with him again at his dojo. I'm also concerned about gradings. In one sense I don't wanna cruise through it and get a handout, want to feel like I earned it, but also don't want to fear them so much and their effect on my body due to how harsh they are, especially higher gradings. Probably why I only graded once a year when I trained haha..

But definite food for thought, appreciate that


----------



## drop bear

_Simon_ said:


> Ah really, hope you find what suits you!
> 
> Yeah for sure I know what you mean. And I guess I'm not after anything for super self defense or anything, but I do love having an intense session, it certainly has its place and develops and reminds you of that strength, resilience and perseverance within. I do miss that!
> 
> Something with a nice balance of soft/hard that doesn't lean either way to an extreme would be awesome.. but perhaps I've really honed that harder training already so perhaps need to lean into more softer training? Hmmmmmm......



Fly up to Rockhampton. Train with this guy.

Trainers | Fitzroy Martial Arts


----------



## _Simon_

drop bear said:


> Fly up to Rockhampton. Train with this guy.
> 
> Trainers | Fitzroy Martial Arts


Ah nice, that actually looks like a really cool place to train. If I'm ever in the area I'll keep it in mind, cheers


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> That's a fair idea actually, I remember there was one Sensei who used to also help out in our dojo, but left our branch after not being happy with things. But every time he took the class I really loved it and got so much out of it. We still did some harder stuff, but we'd do really cool exercises and break things down alot more, had more focused sections, I've always been grateful to him and I emailed him that when he left the branch, was sad that he left.
> 
> But that is an idea, I'd be happy to train with him again at his dojo. I'm also concerned about gradings. In one sense I don't wanna cruise through it and get a handout, want to feel like I earned it, but also don't want to fear them so much and their effect on my body due to how harsh they are, especially higher gradings. Probably why I only graded once a year when I trained haha..
> 
> But definite food for thought, appreciate that


You may want to start a conversation with him and express 'why' you left and what your concerns are.   I do not know any Kyokushin gradings that are simple enough to 'cruise' through but depending on the grade the intensity should be just outside your comfort zone without causing too much bodily harm.   If your opponents are higher belts, you should feel somewhat safer as it is part of their responsibility to help push you but in a safe and controlled manner.   There really is no excuse for higher belts to take advantage of lower belts during a grading, imho.  Besides, we were all there and should remember what it was like to be in your shoes.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> You may want to start a conversation with him and express 'why' you left and what your concerns are.   I do not know any Kyokushin gradings that are simple enough to 'cruise' through but depending on the grade the intensity should be just outside your comfort zone without causing too much bodily harm.   If your opponents are higher belts, you should feel somewhat safer as it is part of their responsibility to help push you but in a safe and controlled manner.   There really is no excuse for higher belts to take advantage of lower belts during a grading, imho.  Besides, we were all there and should remember what it was like to be in your shoes.



Yeah that's a possibility. Ah yeah... our gradings were pretty much always being pushed faaaar beyond one's comfort zone, and sparring was rough. There were alot of seniors I just did not feel safe with at all, and they were really going for it. Some were really good and looked after you, but especially higher grade tests it was intense and relentless, I don't think it was possible to get through all the gradings without an injury at some stage. I like that idea too, that the higher grades are there to look after you but push you, but sometimes it just felt like they were smashing us.

And I guess if higher grades remember what it was like for them, they're going to continue that.

I was so hesitant about grading and I was never excited about them, but in utter fear of being hurt or passing out. Which of course is my own stuff, but yeah I wasn't motivated to continue doing that. But that's the thing, I can absolutely see the immense benefit of that. For sure. It is pushing beyond your perceived limits and about reaching such breakthroughs within yourself to persevere while being pushed. You realise alot about yourself.

I remember my green belt grading, deemed as the second biggest grading in our circles anyway as it was the first of the senior grades, and it was something I have never experienced before, and will never forget it. I can see the value in that, but now feel that I've gone to that extreme, seen the value it's produced within myself (and also the detriment in terms of my health) and am ready to move onto something more in line with how I want to live my life from now on, and in being easier on myself.

Sorry about that whole spiel that was good to get that out haha. But a good idea in bringing that up with my other instructor, osu.


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah that's a possibility. Ah yeah... our gradings were pretty much always being pushed faaaar beyond one's comfort zone, and sparring was rough. There were alot of seniors I just did not feel safe with at all, and they were really going for it. Some were really good and looked after you, but especially higher grade tests it was intense and relentless, I don't think it was possible to get through all the gradings without an injury at some stage. I like that idea too, that the higher grades are there to look after you but push you, but sometimes it just felt like they were smashing us.
> 
> And I guess if higher grades remember what it was like for them, they're going to continue that.
> 
> I was so hesitant about grading and I was never excited about them, but in utter fear of being hurt or passing out. Which of course is my own stuff, but yeah I wasn't motivated to continue doing that. But that's the thing, I can absolutely see the immense benefit of that. For sure. It is pushing beyond your perceived limits and about reaching such breakthroughs within yourself to persevere while being pushed. You realise alot about yourself.
> 
> I remember my green belt grading, deemed as the second biggest grading in our circles anyway as it was the first of the senior grades, and it was something I have never experienced before, and will never forget it. I can see the value in that, but now feel that I've gone to that extreme, seen the value it's produced within myself (and also the detriment in terms of my health) and am ready to move onto something more in line with how I want to live my life from now on, and in being easier on myself.
> 
> Sorry about that whole spiel that was good to get that out haha. But a good idea in bringing that up with my other instructor, osu.


Gradings are supposed to show you where you are in your journey.  They are about exposing the weaknesses and getting students to pass what THEY believe to be their perceived limits.   They check not only the knowledge of the student but their physical fitness and their will to persevere through difficult conditions.   There is a reason why sparring is done at the end of the grading.  When the student is almost completely tapped physically, mentally and emotionally the only thing left to check is how much of their training has sunk into muscle memory.  Can they function under controlled duress.  It is and should not be about knockdown fighting but instead can the student push through and find more gas when they think they are on empty.  

I never quite understood the point of higher belts going at knockdown intensity on someone who has basically been put through the mill.   I had a young Shodan dislocate my rib and had to finish my green belt grading with a broken thumb.  You can bet when I came back fully healed I remembered to line up with him at the next sparring session.   Ok funny guy, try that crap on me now .  He walked out of that session walking a little funny but to my knowledge he never did that again to anyone.  

People come to the dojo to train for a multitude of reasons.  No one comes to the dojo to get injured to the point that they have to stop to recover.   If you want to spar at KD intensity, sign up for a tournament and prepare for it with other people that want to train KD.  Don't go to a grading and pick on someone who's been put through the wringer for 6 hours while you are still fresh.  That is pointless, imho.


----------



## JR 137

Yokozuna514 said:


> Gradings are supposed to show you where you are in your journey.  They are about exposing the weaknesses and getting students to pass what THEY believe to be their perceived limits.   They check not only the knowledge of the student but their physical fitness and their will to persevere through difficult conditions.   There is a reason why sparring is done at the end of the grading.  When the student is almost completely tapped physically, mentally and emotionally the only thing left to check is how much of their training has sunk into muscle memory.  Can they function under controlled duress.  It is and should not be about knockdown fighting but instead can the student push through and find more gas when they think they are on empty.
> 
> I never quite understood the point of higher belts going at knockdown intensity on someone who has basically been put through the mill.   I had a young Shodan dislocate my rib and had to finish my green belt grading with a broken thumb.  You can bet when I came back fully healed I remembered to line up with him at the next sparring session.   Ok funny guy, try that crap on me now .  He walked out of that session walking a little funny but to my knowledge he never did that again to anyone.
> 
> People come to the dojo to train for a multitude of reasons.  No one comes to the dojo to get injured to the point that they have to stop to recover.   If you want to spar at KD intensity, sign up for a tournament and prepare for it with other people that want to train KD.  Don't go to a grading and pick on someone who's been put through the wringer for 6 hours while you are still fresh.  That is pointless, imho.


Sparring during a grading should be about pushing someone to their limits. And maybe just a little passed them. It’s definitely not the time for higher ranks to demonstrate or prove why they’re higher ranks.

Every grading I had, the seniors were a step ahead of me during sparring. They made me work for everything rather than trying to beat me.

For a blatant example of it, one needs to look no further than the 100 man kumite. Even with the very best of the best, after a certain point, any one of the opponents are capable of getting the ippon and ending it. But they don’t. They’re there to ensure the integrity of the event, not make a name for themselves by beating someone. Do you really think Francisco Filho couldn’t have beaten Hajime Kazumi with one hand and one foot tied behind his back when Filho was the 100th opponent?

A grading is about the person who’s testing showing what they know and can handle; not the seniors showing what they know. If the seniors weren’t following this, and repeatedly not doing this, it’s the dojo and not Kyokushin as a whole IMO. And IMO that’s on the head guy for not making it known.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> Gradings are supposed to show you where you are in your journey.  They are about exposing the weaknesses and getting students to pass what THEY believe to be their perceived limits.   They check not only the knowledge of the student but their physical fitness and their will to persevere through difficult conditions.   There is a reason why sparring is done at the end of the grading.  When the student is almost completely tapped physically, mentally and emotionally the only thing left to check is how much of their training has sunk into muscle memory.  Can they function under controlled duress.  It is and should not be about knockdown fighting but instead can the student push through and find more gas when they think they are on empty.
> 
> I never quite understood the point of higher belts going at knockdown intensity on someone who has basically been put through the mill.   I had a young Shodan dislocate my rib and had to finish my green belt grading with a broken thumb.  You can bet when I came back fully healed I remembered to line up with him at the next sparring session.   Ok funny guy, try that crap on me now .  He walked out of that session walking a little funny but to my knowledge he never did that again to anyone.
> 
> People come to the dojo to train for a multitude of reasons.  No one comes to the dojo to get injured to the point that they have to stop to recover.   If you want to spar at KD intensity, sign up for a tournament and prepare for it with other people that want to train KD.  Don't go to a grading and pick on someone who's been put through the wringer for 6 hours while you are still fresh.  That is pointless, imho.





JR 137 said:


> Sparring during a grading should be about pushing someone to their limits. And maybe just a little passed them. It’s definitely not the time for higher ranks to demonstrate or prove why they’re higher ranks.
> 
> Every grading I had, the seniors were a step ahead of me during sparring. They made me work for everything rather than trying to beat me.
> 
> For a blatant example of it, one needs to look no further than the 100 man kumite. Even with the very best of the best, after a certain point, any one of the opponents are capable of getting the ippon and ending it. But they don’t. They’re there to ensure the integrity of the event, not make a name for themselves by beating someone. Do you really think Francisco Filho couldn’t have beaten Hajime Kazumi with one hand and one foot tied behind his back when Filho was the 100th opponent?
> 
> A grading is about the person who’s testing showing what they know and can handle; not the seniors showing what they know. If the seniors weren’t following this, and repeatedly not doing this, it’s the dojo and not Kyokushin as a whole IMO. And IMO that’s on the head guy for not making it known.


Well said guys, thanks for that, it's a good thing to be aware of.

I understand the need for intensity in that situation, but yeah that's right you don't go into it expecting to be injured. Higher grades are to look after you and have your welfare in mind.

I guess it's a matter of quality control hey. And making sure every black belt in the kumite is on the same page and has a responsibility.

I remember a fellow student was doing his Shodan grading, and during the 40 rounds of kumite one of the Senseis (who trained in judo also), did a leg sweep on him and dropped him. At about fight 30. We generally didn't do any sort of sweeps in sparring our branch, didn't train them nor prepare for them in any way, so for him to use that was completely out of line. Not to mention at fight number 30 he's NOT gonna be thinking about getting sweeped and he's just trying to survive at this point in this completely exhausted state, just trying to keep standing. And not only that, but as he hit the ground hard, he louded shouted an expletive, he'd broken his arm on the fall. He was in great pain, and had to slot his arm through his belt to keep it still and finish those last extremely difficult 10 fights.

Inspiring for sure, but didn't make me even remotely look forward to higher gradings.


----------



## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> Well said guys, thanks for that, it's a good thing to be aware of.
> 
> I understand the need for intensity in that situation, but yeah that's right you don't go into it expecting to be injured. Higher grades are to look after you and have your welfare in mind.
> 
> I guess it's a matter of quality control hey. And making sure every black belt in the kumite is on the same page and has a responsibility.
> 
> I remember a fellow student was doing his Shodan grading, and during the 40 rounds of kumite one of the Senseis (who trained in judo also), did a leg sweep on him and dropped him. At about fight 30. We generally didn't do any sort of sweeps in sparring our branch, didn't train them nor prepare for them in any way, so for him to use that was completely out of line. Not to mention at fight number 30 he's NOT gonna be thinking about getting sweeped and he's just trying to survive at this point in this completely exhausted state, just trying to keep standing. And not only that, but as he hit the ground hard, he louded shouted an expletive, he'd broken his arm on the fall. He was in great pain, and had to slot his arm through his belt to keep it still and finish those last extremely difficult 10 fights.
> 
> Inspiring for sure, but didn't make me even remotely look forward to higher gradings.


That’s not how it’s supposed to go. The CI is supposed to make sure of that. The culture is all wrong. Nothing more to say, really.


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> That’s not how it’s supposed to go. The CI is supposed to make sure of that. The culture is all wrong. Nothing more to say, really.


Yeah we were all gobsmacked.. this happened a few years ago, but yeah the fellow's instructor (who is actually the one we've been talking about, who left the branch and who I really enjoyed learning from) was so pissed off. Perhaps one of reasons he left?

The Sensei who did the leg sweep was a very intense fellow.. and called the guy who graded the day after his grading, just really saying that's just how we do things in our dojo, not even apologising.

That's just one instance I can think of, but the higher gradings have always been just brutal. Safety didn't seem to be a priority.. I remember the branch chief saying in a grading to the crowd "any group that wears gloves in the grading kumite is not true Kyokushin, we don't wear gloves here". We could in class, but gradings it wasn't allowed.

I mean I got severely sprained/strained intercostal (rib) muscles from my green belt grading (my avatar pic actually is me at my 4th Kyu grading) from hits, but that happens. My dojo was great though, and my instructor was always looking out for us and our safety.


----------



## _Simon_

Been a couple of weeks (I didn't end up going back to the other dojang, surprise [emoji14] ), I called up and checked out another karate dojo last night just to sit on the side and watch. The instructor was very supportive of me going round and watching and training around in other styles etc, and he said you never really know what a place is like from just reading on their website and commended me on that, so that was nice.

Very good instructor and big on technique and detail, but couldn't really see myself training there and enjoying it. Was great for me to pick that up, and I made sure it wasn't just an avoidance of hard work within myself. It definitely reminded me of my old training days and exactly what I was leaving behind.

The search continues......


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Been a couple of weeks (I didn't end up going back to the other dojang, surprise [emoji14] ), I called up and checked out another karate dojo last night just to sit on the side and watch. The instructor was very supportive of me going round and watching and training around in other styles etc, and he said you never really know what a place is like from just reading on their website and commended me on that, so that was nice.
> 
> Very good instructor and big on technique and detail, but couldn't really see myself training there and enjoying it. Was great for me to pick that up, and I made sure it wasn't just an avoidance of hard work within myself. It definitely reminded me of my old training days and exactly what I was leaving behind.
> 
> The search continues......


One of the hardest things is finding a good instructor AND still realizing it's not the right place. Good on you.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> One of the hardest things is finding a good instructor AND still realizing it's not the right place. Good on you.


Ah cheers, yeah I just had to be truly honest with myself and ask whether I could really see myself training here a couple of days every week.

I know I won't find something absolutely perfect in every way, but also above all I don't want to just settle.


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Ah cheers, yeah I just had to be truly honest with myself and ask whether I could really see myself training here a couple of days every week.
> 
> I know I won't find something absolutely perfect in every way, but also above all I don't want to just settle.


I feel a little jealous of people/areas where there are a lot of MA school choices. I have to drive and hour to have more than the two style choices on our hometown. 
I hope you find a great place soon.


----------



## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> I feel a little jealous of people/areas where there are a lot of MA school choices. I have to drive and hour to have more than the two style choices on our hometown.
> I hope you find a great place soon.


Thanks heaps . Yeah I'm a bit spoiled for choice here, which may not be a good thing haha. There's a bunch of karate dojos, taekwondo, tang soo do, BJJ, wing chun, boxing, kickboxing, MMA, daito ryu, aikido, and probably more.. Even have John Will in the city (5-10min drive), a world-renowned instructor of BJJ/shoot fighting.

Pros and cons to having so much choice available I guess haha..


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

_Simon_ said:


> Thanks heaps . Yeah I'm a bit spoiled for choice here, which may not be a good thing haha. There's a bunch of karate dojos, taekwondo, tang soo do, BJJ, wing chun, boxing, kickboxing, MMA, daito ryu, aikido, and probably more.. Even have John Will in the city (5-10min drive), a world-renowned instructor of BJJ/shoot fighting.
> 
> Pros and cons to having so much choice available I guess haha..


Theres a good ted talk on the paradox of choice. Watched it initially like 7 years ago (or more)...gonna go see if i can find it


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

_Simon_ said:


> Thanks heaps . Yeah I'm a bit spoiled for choice here, which may not be a good thing haha. There's a bunch of karate dojos, taekwondo, tang soo do, BJJ, wing chun, boxing, kickboxing, MMA, daito ryu, aikido, and probably more.. Even have John Will in the city (5-10min drive), a world-renowned instructor of BJJ/shoot fighting.
> 
> Pros and cons to having so much choice available I guess haha..





kempodisciple said:


> Theres a good ted talk on the paradox of choice. Watched it initially like 7 years ago (or more)...gonna go see if i can find it


its from 2005 so i probably watched it closer to 10 years ago. Somehow remembered the title, so i found it super quick. Here you go

The paradox of choice

Might be good to keep it in mind as you continue your search


----------



## _Simon_

kempodisciple said:


> its from 2005 so i probably watched it closer to 10 years ago. Somehow remembered the title, so i found it super quick. Here you go
> 
> The paradox of choice
> 
> Might be good to keep it in mind as you continue your search


Ah thanks heaps mate, that looks fascinating, I'll have a watch soon hopefully!

Yeah that makes sense too, the more choice the more paralysing and overwhelming it can be.


----------



## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> Ah thanks heaps mate, that looks fascinating, I'll have a watch soon hopefully!
> 
> Yeah that makes sense too, the more choice the more paralysing and overwhelming it can be.


There’s a phrase for that - paralysis by over analysis. Not saying you fall under that or not though.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> Theres a good ted talk on the paradox of choice. Watched it initially like 7 years ago (or more)...gonna go see if i can find it


I don't recall if I've seen that one, but one interesting note about choice is that we tend to be less satisfied with our final decision if we have more choices.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> I don't recall if I've seen that one, but one interesting note about choice is that we tend to be less satisfied with our final decision if we have more choices.


You just summed up the entire talk in about one sentence


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> You just summed up the entire talk in about one sentence


Glad to be of service.


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> There’s a phrase for that - paralysis by over analysis. Not saying you fall under that or not though.


Ah yep I know that one, and absolutely I do haha XD.





gpseymour said:


> I don't recall if I've seen that one, but one interesting note about choice is that we tend to be less satisfied with our final decision if we have more choices.


Isn't that funny! I know it happens most time I'm ordering food if I'm out for dinner at a place with many many items on the menu, there's a hint of 'ahhhhh I should have ordered ______ ......."


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Ah yep I know that one, and absolutely I do haha XD.Isn't that funny! I know it happens most time I'm ordering food if I'm out for dinner at a place with many many items on the menu, there's a hint of 'ahhhhh I should have ordered ______ ......."


I have a theory that this is part of why we tend to go back to someplace more once we have a favorite dish or two - little or no choice to make.


----------



## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> I have a theory that this is part of why we tend to go back to someplace more once we have a favorite dish or two - little or no choice to make.


I bartended at an Italian restaurant for several years while in college and afterwards. Great food. The menu is several pages long. It took me no less that 10 minutes to decide what I was going to eat every shift. Seriously. And truth be told, I’d say I had the same thing at least 75% of the time. And I never got sick of it. I still go there semi-regularly. I still have to ponder what I’m having for about 10 minutes. Then I usually revert to my default - linguini with white clam sauce. Second choice is scungili fra diavlo. My wife finds it quite amusing. “How long did you work here for?” “They still have the exact same menu, right?” 7 years, and yes, same menu. I’d find it comical if it was the other way around.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> I bartended at an Italian restaurant for several years while in college and afterwards. Great food. The menu is several pages long. It took me no less that 10 minutes to decide what I was going to eat every shift. Seriously. And truth be told, I’d say I had the same thing at least 75% of the time. And I never got sick of it. I still go there semi-regularly. I still have to ponder what I’m having for about 10 minutes. Then I usually revert to my default - linguini with white clam sauce. Second choice is scungili fra diavlo. My wife finds it quite amusing. “How long did you work here for?” “They still have the exact same menu, right?” 7 years, and yes, same menu. I’d find it comical if it was the other way around.


I'm the opposite with places where I have a favorite. I'll pick up the menu out of habit, then look at it like it's in some alien script, and wonder why I ever picked it up.

I really like the margherita pizza Brixx makes. Far more than is reasonable. Since the first time I had it, I don't think I've ever eaten anything else at a Brixx. Well, one time I did order a "tomato-basil flatbread" once, which the the waiter charmingly delivered as "your definitely-not-a-margherita-pizza flatbread".


----------



## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> I'm the opposite with places where I have a favorite. I'll pick up the menu out of habit, then look at it like it's in some alien script, and wonder why I ever picked it up.
> 
> I really like the margherita pizza Brixx makes. Far more than is reasonable. Since the first time I had it, I don't think I've ever eaten anything else at a Brixx. Well, one time I did order a "tomato-basil flatbread" once, which the the waiter charmingly delivered as "your definitely-not-a-margherita-pizza flatbread".


I’ve got your thing at a few places too. You find something you like and you stick to it. I find myself asking why I don’t try something else to change it up every now and then. I usually don’t. Then I tell myself maybe I’m missing out on something better. Then once in a blue moon I’ll order something else. And guess what? It’s not as good. And I’m kicking myself in the a$$ for not going with the usual. 

Yeah... I’ve got issues.


----------



## _Simon_

Just did a 30 minute session of kata... by candlelight! Felt amazing... revisited some old katas from my first style: Bassai Dai, Seiunchin, Empi; and alternated those with some Kyokushin katas: Gekisai Dai, Gekisai Sho, the four Taikyoku Sokugi katas (kicking katas, just to get the legs goin!), and Tensho.

Hopefully soon I'll visit another dojo... pelvic physio appointment tomorrow as that stuff has gotten quite bad... but has been ages since the last appointment which is good. SI joint is getting there veeeery slowly but surely...

Feel quite good after the session, even after the vigorous Sokugi kata, so positive sign I hope!


----------



## _Simon_

Been too long! Am sick of waiting around for the 'perfect time', till I'm perfectly well etc, so I gotz to it! Am just itching to get back to training, and haven't been able to explore much this year.

Messaged a dojo the other day, and said I was more than welcome to watch, so did that last night! I've expanded my search a little so that it's not only local. This dojo is about a 40 minute drive away.

It's a pure Shotokan style, which is super exciting, everything locally is Kyokushin or a derivative of, so it was exciting to see a non-hybrid karate style (of course, all or most styles are mixes of things but you know what I mean [emoji14] ).

Dojo was great, it's a fulltime one and set up well, mats, mirrors, 4 hanging bags and a BOB. Senior class only had 6 people training (which was the busier night), but no issue there! Instructor was nice enough, 4th Dan, and founder of the particular style which has a fair few locations, and said his approach was pretty casual in terms of discipline. He still pushes them hard, but not in a stupid way. And I was really impressed with his movement, technique and agility for a semi-older dude!

Students were really friendly and welcoming to me, looked like they were enjoying themselves, had some laughs and banter, looked like a really nice, supportive environment.

There was no seiza and mokuso (closed eyes) at the start of class which surprised me! Not a dealbreaker haha, but I've never been to a dojo without that tradition. Just had the standard bow in, 'sensei ni rei' etc etc.

They trained for about an hour and a half, and the variety was really cool, covered heaps of different stuff. I think they're quite sports karate oriented, but I quite enjoyed seeing all the training they did. Kihon, kata, bagwork and conditioning, partner work drills, self defense stuff, some quality stretching. Very big on technique, and I was really impressed with one of the younger blackbelts, really sharp technique, great control and movement. Some of them had sloppier technique, but I'm trying not to judge on surface level like that, as I know that there can often be alot under the surface I don't know about (injuries, illnesses, physical disabilities etc). Also the club has a fair few kid black belts, which of course is always a point of contention for many, it's not necessarily for me as it really depends on the club and the club's standards, and what the blackbelt means within the club.

Not an instant 'love connection' but that's not necessarily the idea anyway. Am trying not to frame it in my perception of what needs to happen or how I need to feel specifically for it to be the place for me. Hence why trialling it out is important, unless I have a very clear 'no' that comes up within me.

Thinking of training with them for a week or two or so to get a feel for it. It's just a little more expensive than I'd like... so that may be issue if I go ahead but we'll see.

I really like the idea of being a part of a bigger group, as I enjoy special group training sessions, camps, seminars etc etc. And meeting all those training in the same style. Also like the idea of smaller clubs too for other reasons hehe.

I also had one idea which I've been toying with which excites me a bit... but I'll hold off and still try some styles before that [emoji14]


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Been too long! Am sick of waiting around for the 'perfect time', till I'm perfectly well etc, so I gotz to it! Am just itching to get back to training, and haven't been able to explore much this year.
> 
> Messaged a dojo the other day, and said I was more than welcome to watch, so did that last night! I've expanded my search a little so that it's not only local. This dojo is about a 40 minute drive away.
> 
> It's a pure Shotokan style, which is super exciting, everything locally is Kyokushin or a derivative of, so it was exciting to see a non-hybrid karate style (of course, all or most styles are mixes of things but you know what I mean [emoji14] ).
> 
> Dojo was great, it's a fulltime one and set up well, mats, mirrors, 4 hanging bags and a BOB. Senior class only had 6 people training (which was the busier night), but no issue there! Instructor was nice enough, 4th Dan, and founder of the particular style which has a fair few locations, and said his approach was pretty casual in terms of discipline. He still pushes them hard, but not in a stupid way. And I was really impressed with his movement, technique and agility for a semi-older dude!
> 
> Students were really friendly and welcoming to me, looked like they were enjoying themselves, had some laughs and banter, looked like a really nice, supportive environment.
> 
> There was no seiza and mokuso (closed eyes) at the start of class which surprised me! Not a dealbreaker haha, but I've never been to a dojo without that tradition. Just had the standard bow in, 'sensei ni rei' etc etc.
> 
> They trained for about an hour and a half, and the variety was really cool, covered heaps of different stuff. I think they're quite sports karate oriented, but I quite enjoyed seeing all the training they did. Kihon, kata, bagwork and conditioning, partner work drills, self defense stuff, some quality stretching. Very big on technique, and I was really impressed with one of the younger blackbelts, really sharp technique, great control and movement. Some of them had sloppier technique, but I'm trying not to judge on surface level like that, as I know that there can often be alot under the surface I don't know about (injuries, illnesses, physical disabilities etc). Also the club has a fair few kid black belts, which of course is always a point of contention for many, it's not necessarily for me as it really depends on the club and the club's standards, and what the blackbelt means within the club.
> 
> Not an instant 'love connection' but that's not necessarily the idea anyway. Am trying not to frame it in my perception of what needs to happen or how I need to feel specifically for it to be the place for me. Hence why trialling it out is important, unless I have a very clear 'no' that comes up within me.
> 
> Thinking of training with them for a week or two or so to get a feel for it. It's just a little more expensive than I'd like... so that may be issue if I go ahead but we'll see.
> 
> I really like the idea of being a part of a bigger group, as I enjoy special group training sessions, camps, seminars etc etc. And meeting all those training in the same style. Also like the idea of smaller clubs too for other reasons hehe.
> 
> I also had one idea which I've been toying with which excites me a bit... but I'll hold off and still try some styles before that [emoji14]


Glad to hear you got out there and found someplace promising. Want to hear more - and that “idea”...


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Been too long! Am sick of waiting around for the 'perfect time', till I'm perfectly well etc, so I gotz to it! Am just itching to get back to training, and haven't been able to explore much this year.
> 
> Messaged a dojo the other day, and said I was more than welcome to watch, so did that last night! I've expanded my search a little so that it's not only local. This dojo is about a 40 minute drive away.
> 
> It's a pure Shotokan style, which is super exciting, everything locally is Kyokushin or a derivative of, so it was exciting to see a non-hybrid karate style (of course, all or most styles are mixes of things but you know what I mean [emoji14] ).
> 
> Dojo was great, it's a fulltime one and set up well, mats, mirrors, 4 hanging bags and a BOB. Senior class only had 6 people training (which was the busier night), but no issue there! Instructor was nice enough, 4th Dan, and founder of the particular style which has a fair few locations, and said his approach was pretty casual in terms of discipline. He still pushes them hard, but not in a stupid way. And I was really impressed with his movement, technique and agility for a semi-older dude!
> 
> Students were really friendly and welcoming to me, looked like they were enjoying themselves, had some laughs and banter, looked like a really nice, supportive environment.
> 
> There was no seiza and mokuso (closed eyes) at the start of class which surprised me! Not a dealbreaker haha, but I've never been to a dojo without that tradition. Just had the standard bow in, 'sensei ni rei' etc etc.
> 
> They trained for about an hour and a half, and the variety was really cool, covered heaps of different stuff. I think they're quite sports karate oriented, but I quite enjoyed seeing all the training they did. Kihon, kata, bagwork and conditioning, partner work drills, self defense stuff, some quality stretching. Very big on technique, and I was really impressed with one of the younger blackbelts, really sharp technique, great control and movement. Some of them had sloppier technique, but I'm trying not to judge on surface level like that, as I know that there can often be alot under the surface I don't know about (injuries, illnesses, physical disabilities etc). Also the club has a fair few kid black belts, which of course is always a point of contention for many, it's not necessarily for me as it really depends on the club and the club's standards, and what the blackbelt means within the club.
> 
> Not an instant 'love connection' but that's not necessarily the idea anyway. Am trying not to frame it in my perception of what needs to happen or how I need to feel specifically for it to be the place for me. Hence why trialling it out is important, unless I have a very clear 'no' that comes up within me.
> 
> Thinking of training with them for a week or two or so to get a feel for it. It's just a little more expensive than I'd like... so that may be issue if I go ahead but we'll see.
> 
> I really like the idea of being a part of a bigger group, as I enjoy special group training sessions, camps, seminars etc etc. And meeting all those training in the same style. Also like the idea of smaller clubs too for other reasons hehe.
> 
> I also had one idea which I've been toying with which excites me a bit... but I'll hold off and still try some styles before that [emoji14]


Glad to hear you are getting back on the horse, so to speak.   Good luck at the new place and keep us posted.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> Glad to hear you got out there and found someplace promising. Want to hear more - and that “idea”...





Yokozuna514 said:


> Glad to hear you are getting back on the horse, so to speak.   Good luck at the new place and keep us posted.


Thanks so much guys, I just emailed before asking if I can possibly trial them out for one or two weeks and happy to pay whatever for that time, and get this... the instructor emails back and says I'm most welcome to train for the rest of this year for free (which is about three weeks of classes).

I was absolutely blown away to be honest... that's such a kind and generous gesture, never had that before.. so I'll be training twice a week with them starting Monday . Really looking forward to it!

Oh and Gerry my "idea" hehe, was basically to train with the first style that I tried out (the aiki karate one), as it seemed to touch on closer to what I may be after... and would love to explore it more, but as they only train once a week, I toyed with training once a week with one of my old Kyokushin instructors (who left our branch) whom I got a great deal out of the sessions with him.

I believe you mentioned to me awhile back training with him @Yokozuna514 which I remembered and pondered!

I wouldn't plan to do gradings in Kyokushin, but I think that would be such a nice balance for me... the aiki karate one day which is maybe less intense and has those deeper connective elements, and my old instructor who while still pushed us from time to time, didn't do it every single session and really allowed us to slow down and he saw the value in not just training crazy hard all the time for the sake of it. Also respect the hell out of him, his incredible knowledge and his passion for karate.

We shall see!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Sounds like a great start at that school. Have fun, and don't beat up all the 12-year-olds.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> Sounds like a great start at that school. Have fun, and don't beat up all the 12-year-olds.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


>


Exactly.


----------



## _Simon_

Well well well! I couldn't make it to the Monday class as yet anoooother throat infection thingo.... but I was all better for today and I went to class tonight!

Went really good, and I enjoyed it muchly! Was about an hour and a half of training (has been ages since I've done that length!), and was quite hard work! So it's a Shotokan club, and they're quite big on technique, power, working hard, fitness and endurance.

Were about 7 of us training, the instructor is a really nice guy, and stopped us a few times with a few stories, loved that haha. It was actually really relaxed, and we had a few breaks where we just chatted casually, it was such a nice way to break it up. And all the members were incredibly friendly and all got along very well. Was a nice balance of being pushed hard, and it being relaxed and enjoying each other's company.

The sort of things we did (I've written down after all the classes I've been trialling what we did):

Warmup running, sprints, plank, situps etc
Mirrored basics with partner (punches, blocks, block punch punch)
Moving zenkutsu dachi, punches, blocks, combos
Kokutsu dachi and shuto uke
Zenkutsu dachi gedan barai and punch, hip pivot to open side block punch, and back
Talked about kiais
Grading combos (moving in kokutsu dachi shuto uke, grab, shuto ganmen uchi other hand. Hikite in fist)
Paused staged kicks
Circuits of alternating kata and bagwork (different bag stations: any light kicks, shin kicks, headlevel punches, uppercuts and knees)
Stretch


I will be sooooooooooore the next few days haha.. haven't trained that hard in quite awhile and I had two moments where I knew I'd been pushed to 'that place'. I think you what I mean . Peripheral vision gets fuzzy, either gonna pass out or throw up haha, and you know to back off slightly and breathe deeply. But those staged kicks really got things burning!

But I genuinely just felt comfortable being there. Was a nice atmosphere and energy, people were great (almost too casual, was surprised when I heard a couple of people swearing whilst chatting during training, never was that allowed in our dojo back in the day! Haha..), and a nice balance of training darn hard, still with discipline and usual formalities of terminology and bowing, and a casual relaxed atmosphere.

And also just that I really enjoyed training with people again that may be a big part of it. I also didn't get any cultish vibes from this place haha so that's always positive [emoji1787]. Will see how it pans out over the next few weeks, only concerns are the intensity of training for me physically, what it's emphasis is and whether it's more broad than deep, and whether it has that something I'm looking for in a dojo. And just still need to relax more during training but that will come.

Looking forward to next week


----------



## KenpoMaster805

Great News hope you find a style you want to train


----------



## _Simon_

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Great News hope you find a style you want to train


Thanks heaps brother!


----------



## _Simon_

Last night's training was good fun. It was a muuuch more toned down and easier class, as alot of people had grading the previous day. Much more slower paced!

Did some leg conditioning, kata practice (really like the Shotokan version of the Pinan/Heian kata compared to the versions I know), senior grades worked on the Naihanchi kata.

Then did bagwork, worked primarily on specific kicks, step up side kick, round kicks, hook kicks. I thought it was very honest of the instructor when he said hook kicks (high ones) are primarily for tournaments and sparring, and he wouldn't use them for self defense. Respected that he didn't pretend they were a good option for self defense 

Then did some partner work, and working on counters to high kicks, getting the timing right of as soon as the kick starts, to move in/off to the side and counter.

This school does low/thigh kicks too! How progressive! XD

I also asked about the contact level of their sparring, it's light controlled contact. So padded up, light to the head, and a bit sharper to the body. Am glad it isn't completely noncontact. And it was always down to the agreed upon level of contact between the two people involved. Glad he said that, that the option to go harder is there if you want.

And if you're going far too hard, the opponent will give it back just as hard. A respect thing 

Seems like a really respectful group


----------



## _Simon_

A really different class tonight! We worked solely on breakfalls and osoto gari for the whole time! Which was good, as I'd had tremendous and constant pelvic pain for most of the day and wasn't sure if I could make it, so this was much more slow paced and pelvic friendly.

Breakfalls were falling backwards, to the side, even learning proper forward rolls.

Osoto gari I'd never really worked on a great deal, so was cool to refresh. Did it in response to certain attacks and in a defensive manner and then worked it in an offensive way. Mine certainly need aLOT of work haha, I managed to get it working, but sometimes my balance was compromised or I was leaning over too much etc.

Even at one stage worked on once sweeping them moving into an arm bar, totally new to me haha.

Trips, sweeps, locks and throws etc aren't really of much interest to me, but it's always cool to do every now and then, enjoyed the night


----------



## fkhaja1

congrats on the journey!! Please keep us updated as much as you can! Stretch before and after and protect your face and head! Kyokushin if i spelled that right is hardcore especially but i wish you the best of luck! And make hot tubs your best friend.

By the way shameless promoting but spread the word to everyone you know in illinois!: 
Professor K’s Fight Finishing School - Woodridge, IL


----------



## _Simon_

fkhaja1 said:


> congrats on the journey!! Please keep us updated as much as you can! Stretch before and after and protect your face and head! Kyokushin if i spelled that right is hardcore especially but i wish you the best of luck! And make hot tubs your best friend.
> 
> By the way shameless promoting but spread the word to everyone you know in illinois!:
> Professor K’s Fight Finishing School - Woodridge, IL


... thanks for the kind words!

Well, being in Australia, it's not likely I'll know anyone around those parts. Probably should have checked my location, but good to know!


----------



## _Simon_

Well, that's the end of my trial with the Shotokan dojo!

Tonight was a hard class! We did alot of circuit work, spread between different categories: lower body, agility, upper body, bagwork and core exercises. VERY tough, had to summon my spirit of 'Osu' quite intensely .

Then we worked on sparring which I was glad we did! So first a few sparring drills with footwork, closing distance, working the jab, jab reverse, to a one legged punch, and adding a sweep and attack. Also worked on switching our stance to close the gap, to a thigh kick. Love some good thigh kick conditioning.. All very fun!

And then we finished off with free sparring! There were only three of us training, so we just tagged each other in, there was a white belt and a 2nd kyu. Was fun to be sparring again, and nice that we still had contact, but not knockout or over the top.

Was funny at the start of class, as I was warming up running around the dojo, I rolled my ankle and fell! Yep, the same ankle I injured badly a year ago! Had a moment of concern, but I did the class okay. It is actually a bit sore at the moment, but I don't think I've re-torn the ligament or anything... Iced it a bit and will see how it pulls up tomorrow.

Trained for almost three weeks with them, and I thoroughly enjoyed the training, the instructor, the atmosphere, approach and people. Just the intense physical training I don't know if I can handle at this stage... and also whether that's something I want. It was good how not every single session was like that though. But I'll only know if I can handle it by doing it hey.

Absolutely will consider this place, but the start of next year I will try a Goju ryu dojo which is still a drive but isn't as far.

Thanks everyone for all your support, kind words, encouragement and even just keeping watch over this year, it means the world!


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Well, that's the end of my trial with the Shotokan dojo!
> 
> Tonight was a hard class! We did alot of circuit work, spread between different categories: lower body, agility, upper body, bagwork and core exercises. VERY tough, had to summon my spirit of 'Osu' quite intensely .
> 
> Then we worked on sparring which I was glad we did! So first a few sparring drills with footwork, closing distance, working the jab, jab reverse, to a one legged punch, and adding a sweep and attack. Also worked on switching our stance to close the gap, to a thigh kick. Love some good thigh kick conditioning.. All very fun!
> 
> And then we finished off with free sparring! There were only three of us training, so we just tagged each other in, there was a white belt and a 2nd kyu. Was fun to be sparring again, and nice that we still had contact, but not knockout or over the top.
> 
> Was funny at the start of class, as I was warming up running around the dojo, I rolled my ankle and fell! Yep, the same ankle I injured badly a year ago! Had a moment of concern, but I did the class okay. It is actually a bit sore at the moment, but I don't think I've re-torn the ligament or anything... Iced it a bit and will see how it pulls up tomorrow.
> 
> Trained for almost three weeks with them, and I thoroughly enjoyed the training, the instructor, the atmosphere, approach and people. Just the intense physical training I don't know if I can handle at this stage... and also whether that's something I want. It was good how not every single session was like that though. But I'll only know if I can handle it by doing it hey.
> 
> Absolutely will consider this place, but the start of next year I will try a Goju ryu dojo which is still a drive but isn't as far.
> 
> Thanks everyone for all your support, kind words, encouragement and even just keeping watch over this year, it means the world!


Great to hear. Always good to hear about a good school. Remember distance (the lack of) has a Lot to do with the ability to stick with a location. 
Best of fortune to you on the journey.


----------



## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> Great to hear. Always good to hear about a good school. Remember distance (the lack of) has a Lot to do with the ability to stick with a location.
> Best of fortune to you on the journey.


Thanks @dvcochran, appreciate that very much! And yeah it's something I've kept in mind. I didn't want distance to be a factor if it's something I really click with and enjoy. But I see what you're saying, distance does add another element that may make things difficult.

Cheers


----------



## Tony Dismukes

So, how many different schools have you tried out so far in your search for a new martial arts home?


----------



## _Simon_

Tony Dismukes said:


> So, how many different schools have you tried out so far in your search for a new martial arts home?


Hey Tony, I've tried out 5 different schools so far . Have sat in on some too, in which I knew fairly quickly it wasn't one I even wanted to trial out. Some I have clicked with a bit, some I haven't, but wanting to make an informed decision before I commit.


----------



## _Simon_

Had a great session here at home, a mix of kihon, conditioning, kata, agility and footwork drills, and bagwork drills.

I'm planning on finally doing a beach session. My first one will be solo, and a nice one to mark the end of this very very challenging year... and I'm gonna reach out to all my karate-ka friends and see who wants to join me for a beach one soon, a sort of Kagami Biraki!

Miss all the guys I used to train with, and this one will be very symbolic for me in starting the year solid, standing within the strength I've realised within myself and using that propel me forward. Away from toxic environments and people, and into goodness, truth, love and where my heart wants to pull me. But if no one shows up, I'll still be training!

MT folks are welcome too! *I will pay for airfares!!!

Watch this space!


*Disclaimer: these terms and conditions subject to change.


----------



## _Simon_

Ahh stunning conditions this morning for a karate beach session... did some solid kihon, formal ido geiko, kumite combinations, and kata. Still reached 44°C eventually, but the breeze and water had a very cooling effect.

Highlights: doing kicks and almost falling over, and Seiunchin, Sanchin and Tensho katas in the deeper waist-high waters!

A really refreshing morning... I teared up when I was close to the location and could see the stunningly beautiful scenery... has gotta be one of my favourite places, and haven't been here in ages. Felt like a spiritual homecoming.

My aim was to leave everything behind from this year in the waters, all the toxic people and situations, and everything which no longer serves me. Start afresh.


----------



## _Simon_

One of those home sessions when you plan to do only about 30 mins max, and you start, and an hour and 45 mins later........

XD

Was great fun!


Warmup

Exercise stations (run across hall, kiba dachi + 10 punches, run, 10 pushups, run, 10 squat mae geris, run, superman hold 20s. Repeat 3 times)

Irimi/sabaki steps

Kokutsu dachi shuto uke, slowly, then fast:
Really cool things I discovered doing this... I focused on keeping weight low, relaxed the whole time, and on really letting the body uncoil. To NOT really focus on hand/arm/shoulder at all, don't force arm movement, and to let the body uncoil into it. Lengthen my stance a little, and more weight on back. (Did like over 100 of them or so...)

Combo- kiba dachi 2x punches, turn left 45° zenkutsu dachi uchi uke, turn left kokutsu dachi shuto uke, back to kiba dachi 2x punches. Other side.

Punches, blocks and kicks with resistance bands:
REALLY fun. Haven't done much of this before, was quite challenging.

Impact conditioning: wasn't sure what to do these on... but I turned my punching bag upside down and used that end (much firmer than top!). Just different blocks into it to condition forearms a bit.

Used a stick/handle to smash myself XD. Stomach, ribs, outside thigh, inside thigh.


----------



## _Simon_

Still training at home while on holidays, coming up with creative methods and invented a new fun training contraption .

Just a hand mitt attached to a resistance band, and attached to my punching bag stand. Used it for a bit of accuracy training: lunge punches, reverse punches, front kicks, rounds kicks...

And it's great, as you make impact it swings around everywhere like crazy, so you've gotta try and work on your timing to explode into it at just the right moment in order to hit it.


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## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Still training at home while on holidays, coming up with creative methods and invented a new fun training contraption .
> 
> Just a hand mitt attached to a resistance band, and attached to my punching bag stand. Used it for a bit of accuracy training: lunge punches, reverse punches, front kicks, rounds kicks...
> 
> And it's great, as you make impact it swings around everywhere like crazy, so you've gotta try and work on your timing to explode into it at just the right moment in order to hit it.


I need to get creative and set up some stuff to work on at home. I typically only work kata at home (no heavy bag, even), but I really ought to be able to figure out some things like this to work strikes a bit.


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## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> I need to get creative and set up some stuff to work on at home. I typically only work kata at home (no heavy bag, even), but I really ought to be able to figure out some things like this to work strikes a bit.


Ah yeah there're so many different ways to train things... it's quite fun to come up with stuff... some of it really does help skill development, and then honestly some of it is purely just for fun, and a fun way to use strikes etc. Both are important I think in their own way 

I remember when doing some tournament prep, I hung up a tennis ball by string, gave it a good push, closed my eyes, opened them at random intervals, and had to either block the ball or just get out of the way before it hits me!

I tend to mix up my sessions depending on what I want to or need to work on, how the bod is feeling, or just a maintenance session, for example today I came up with:

-Warmup
-Quick kihon
-Lots moving dynamic flexibility x50
-Kihon (specific): 1 from each type of strike, x10, COMPLETE relaxation in between, explode out of completely relaxed space
-Accuracy target training
-1x kata (worked on Gekisai Dai for about 7mins..)
-Shadowsparring app (posted a thread about this one)


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## _Simon_

Don't know if I posted this already, another creative use of "obstacles"... a wooden seat on its side, with a lemon sitting on top. Basically, it would HURT if I don't get the kick mechanics and arc right, so a challenge


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## Mitlov

_Simon_ said:


> Still training at home while on holidays, coming up with creative methods and invented a new fun training contraption .
> 
> Just a hand mitt attached to a resistance band, and attached to my punching bag stand. Used it for a bit of accuracy training: lunge punches, reverse punches, front kicks, rounds kicks...
> 
> And it's great, as you make impact it swings around everywhere like crazy, so you've gotta try and work on your timing to explode into it at just the right moment in order to hit it.



When I fenced, we used a tennis ball hanging from a string in exactly this way.


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## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Ah yeah there're so many different ways to train things... it's quite fun to come up with stuff... some of it really does help skill development, and then honestly some of it is purely just for fun, and a fun way to use strikes etc. Both are important I think in their own way
> 
> I remember when doing some tournament prep, I hung up a tennis ball by string, gave it a good push, closed my eyes, opened them at random intervals, and had to either block the ball or just get out of the way before it hits me!
> 
> I tend to mix up my sessions depending on what I want to or need to work on, how the bod is feeling, or just a maintenance session, for example today I came up with:
> 
> -Warmup
> -Quick kihon
> -Lots moving dynamic flexibility x50
> -Kihon (specific): 1 from each type of strike, x10, COMPLETE relaxation in between, explode out of completely relaxed space
> -Accuracy target training
> -1x kata (worked on Gekisai Dai for about 7mins..)
> -Shadowsparring app (posted a thread about this one)


I’ve spent most of my training time on grappling, so tend to forget there’s a lot I can train without a partner. I rather like doing “stations” for 30+ minutes.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Don't know if I posted this already, another creative use of "obstacles"... a wooden seat on its side, with a lemon sitting on top. Basically, it would HURT if I don't get the kick mechanics and arc right, so a challenge


That’s a kick I’d love to add to my repertoire some day. It has always looked like it would be a nice challenge.


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## _Simon_

Mitlov said:


> When I fenced, we used a tennis ball hanging from a string in exactly this way.


Oh really, very cool! It's a simple exercise but can be quite effective!


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## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Don't know if I posted this already, another creative use of "obstacles"... a wooden seat on its side, with a lemon sitting on top. Basically, it would HURT if I don't get the kick mechanics and arc right, so a challenge



Nice kick, Simon.


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## _Simon_

Life has been incredibly difficult of late... so I really need to stay connected to what brings me joy and meaning. Martial arts being one. I messaged a Goju ryu dojo that's only about 28min drive from me to ask if I can sit in and watch a class and they said I was more than welcome. Will be popping in Wednesday night.

Recently lost my job.. so the MA journey may be a little delayed.. but they offer a free two week trial which is awesome, looking forward to it very much. Was great experiencing Shotokan and what that dojo was all about, so very keen to see pure Goju ryu.


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Life has been incredibly difficult of late... so I really need to stay connected to what brings me joy and meaning. Martial arts being one. I messaged a Goju ryu dojo that's only about 28min drive from me to ask if I can sit in and watch a class and they said I was more than welcome. Will be popping in Wednesday night.
> 
> Recently lost my job.. so the MA journey may be a little delayed.. but they offer a free two week trial which is awesome, looking forward to it very much. Was great experiencing Shotokan and what that dojo was all about, so very keen to see pure Goju ryu.


Sorry to hear that Simon. You are certainly one of the most enjoyable and upbeat people here on the Forum. I appreciate how you always have something good to say. Keep your head up and with a little bit of effort things will work themselves out. 
Stay in touch.


----------



## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> Sorry to hear that Simon. You are certainly one of the most enjoyable and upbeat people here on the Forum. I appreciate how you always have something good to say. Keep your head up and with a little bit of effort things will work themselves out.
> Stay in touch.



That means more to me than you know.. thank you so much.


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Don't know if I posted this already, another creative use of "obstacles"... a wooden seat on its side, with a lemon sitting on top. Basically, it would HURT if I don't get the kick mechanics and arc right, so a challenge


There is something about using a hard target or support where you Know you better not hit it that is very motivating! 
Great motion on the standing leg. Good pivot on the ball of the foot. That is something a Lot of people struggle with. 

This may be more a semantics thing. Are you doing a spinning hook kick or spinning wheel kick?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Life has been incredibly difficult of late... so I really need to stay connected to what brings me joy and meaning. Martial arts being one. I messaged a Goju ryu dojo that's only about 28min drive from me to ask if I can sit in and watch a class and they said I was more than welcome. Will be popping in Wednesday night.
> 
> Recently lost my job.. so the MA journey may be a little delayed.. but they offer a free two week trial which is awesome, looking forward to it very much. Was great experiencing Shotokan and what that dojo was all about, so very keen to see pure Goju ryu.


I can relate to life being difficult, and how much things like MA participation help. I hope you have lots of fun with the Goju folks. Hopefully they'll take you seriously, and work your butt off so you'll be glad you have some time off to recover.


----------



## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> There is something about using a hard target or support where you Know you better not hit it that is very motivating!
> Great motion on the standing leg. Good pivot on the ball of the foot. That is something a Lot of people struggle with.
> 
> This may be more a semantics thing. Are you doing a spinning hook kick or spinning wheel kick?



Yes definitely haha.. once you know there is a very solid object that will hurt, you learn quickly XD. Although sometimes the opposite can happen, you can shortcut something or change the mechanics to something not quite right in order to simply avoid hitting the object. Hence why filming it can help!

Ah thanks, a spinning hook kick, although I'm now looking up the difference as I'm unsure! Mine follows a pretty big arc but still hooks in at or around the impact point... is spinning hook more tight knit then extends out to hook, and wheel is a big spinning more circular arc with bigger range of motion... although it seems that some places use the terms interchangeably...

We just called it ura mawashi geri hehe (reverse round kick)


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> I can relate to life being difficult, and how much things like MA participation help. I hope you have lots of fun with the Goju folks. Hopefully they'll take you seriously, and work your butt off so you'll be glad you have some time off to recover.



Hahaha hope so too XD

Yeah I just know if I isolate myself too much (which I DO tend to do...), it's not very healthy.

And it sounds like a really friendly place, the main instructor has a background in Shotokan too, and their adult classes also include some Filipino sticks and some Judo rolling & throwing so it's a mix of arts! Although I'm not too interested in those it may be quite interesting, and I may even take to it!


----------



## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> Yes definitely haha.. once you know there is a very solid object that will hurt, you learn quickly XD. Although sometimes the opposite can happen, you can shortcut something or change the mechanics to something not quite right in order to simply avoid hitting the object. Hence why filming it can help!
> 
> Ah thanks, a spinning hook kick, although I'm now looking up the difference as I'm unsure! Mine follows a pretty big arc but still hooks in at or around the impact point... is spinning hook more tight knit then extends out to hook, and wheel is a big spinning more circular arc with bigger range of motion... although it seems that some places use the terms interchangeably...
> 
> We just called it ura mawashi geri hehe (reverse round kick)


We call it ushiro mawashi geri. I always wondered why it isn’t called ushiro kake geri; regular hook kick is kake geri. And why are crescent kicks called soto mawashi geri and uchi mawashi geri?

And who is this geri guy. And doesn’t he know it’s supposed to be spelled Gary?


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> We call it ushiro mawashi geri. I always wondered why it isn’t called ushiro kake geri; regular hook kick is kake geri. And why are crescent kicks called soto mawashi geri and uchi mawashi geri?
> 
> And who is this geri guy. And doesn’t he know it’s supposed to be spelled Gary?



Hahaha XD

AH crap yeah that's what I meant, we called it ushiro mawashi geri too, brain slip up!

Yeah some names I think they just used what was already in the vocab, chucked em together and it made some semblance of meaning hehe

And apparently you've got be careful when saying 'geri' just on its own if you're in Japan, apparently means 'diarrhea' XD.


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Yes definitely haha.. once you know there is a very solid object that will hurt, you learn quickly XD. Although sometimes the opposite can happen, you can shortcut something or change the mechanics to something not quite right in order to simply avoid hitting the object. Hence why filming it can help!
> 
> Ah thanks, a spinning hook kick, although I'm now looking up the difference as I'm unsure! Mine follows a pretty big arc but still hooks in at or around the impact point... is spinning hook more tight knit then extends out to hook, and wheel is a big spinning more circular arc with bigger range of motion... although it seems that some places use the terms interchangeably...
> 
> We just called it ura mawashi geri hehe (reverse round kick)


Yes, I would say you hit the nail on the head. "Hook" is a literal term where the heel/achilles can hit and pull the head forward. For people with the flexibility, a hook kick can be a crazy close in kick. A wheel kick is usually thrown from a little further out. Again, it has a lot to do with the flexibility of the kicker and the speed of the kick. Both kicks are much higher percentage when coming over the persons shoulder instead of into their front side.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Hahaha hope so too XD
> 
> Yeah I just know if I isolate myself too much (which I DO tend to do...), it's not very healthy.
> 
> And it sounds like a really friendly place, the main instructor has a background in Shotokan too, and their adult classes also include some Filipino sticks and some Judo rolling & throwing so it's a mix of arts! Although I'm not too interested in those it may be quite interesting, and I may even take to it!


Damn, now _I_ want to go there.


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> We call it ushiro mawashi geri. I always wondered why it isn’t called ushiro kake geri; regular hook kick is kake geri. And why are crescent kicks called soto mawashi geri and uchi mawashi geri?
> 
> And who is this geri guy. And doesn’t he know it’s supposed to be spelled Gary?


AND just looking through my old Kyokushin syllabus, also can call it kakato geri (heel kick), ah that's right I remember some instructors used to call it ushiro mawashi kakato geri...

Although we used the term kakato in a few other kick names too.. mae oroshi kakato geri (descending heel kick, NOT an axe kick though, a stomp essentially) and ushiro age kakato geri (rising heel kick to the back).


----------



## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> Yes, I would say you hit the nail on the head. "Hook" is a literal term where the heel/achilles can hit and pull the head forward. For people with the flexibility, a hook kick can be a crazy close in kick. A wheel kick is usually thrown from a little further out. Again, it has a lot to do with the flexibility of the kicker and the speed of the kick. Both kicks are much higher percentage when coming over the persons shoulder instead of into their front side.


Ahhh yep I see, cheers for that, makes sense! Yeah I love close up hook kicks


----------



## Yokozuna514

JR 137 said:


> We call it ushiro mawashi geri. I always wondered why it isn’t called ushiro kake geri; regular hook kick is kake geri. And why are crescent kicks called soto mawashi geri and uchi mawashi geri?
> 
> And who is this geri guy. And doesn’t he know it’s supposed to be spelled Gary?





_Simon_ said:


> Hahaha XD
> 
> AH crap yeah that's what I meant, we called it ushiro mawashi geri too, brain slip up!
> 
> Yeah some names I think they just used what was already in the vocab, chucked em together and it made some semblance of meaning hehe
> 
> And apparently you've got be careful when saying 'geri' just on its own if you're in Japan, apparently means 'diarrhea' XD.


We also call it ushiro mawashi geri although the proper spelling is 'keri' but pronounced 'geri'.   Geri in Japan does mean diarrhea so I hope we are talking about kicking and not loose stools .


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Ahhh yep I see, cheers for that, makes sense! Yeah I love close up hook kicks


If it helps, think of the hook as a more narrowed elliptical motion where the peak of the ellipse sharply starts the other side of the arc. Does that make sense? 
A wheel is more oval in geometry. 
A hook moves the person more forward or toward you and a wheel moves them perpendicular away from you.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> We also call it ushiro mawashi geri although the proper spelling is 'keri' but pronounced 'geri'.   Geri in Japan does mean diarrhea so I hope we are talking about kicking and not loose stools .


Would certainly bring a whole new meaning to yoko geri XD


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## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> If it helps, think of the hook as a more narrowed elliptical motion where the peak of the ellipse sharply starts the other side of the arc. Does that make sense?
> A wheel is more oval in geometry.
> A hook moves the person more forward or toward you and a wheel moves them perpendicular away from you.


Yeah that's a great explanation, makes alot of sense, cheers


----------



## _Simon_

Yoga + karate... I call it... yogarate . Kyokushin meditation and Kyokushin yoga! Hahaha... imagine that...

Did a session alternating between sun salutations, and ido geiko combinations.

I tell ya what, they compliment each other greatly.. everything certainly felt alot more connected and flowed better during the ido geiko. More relaxed and in unison. Even tried doing the ido geiko with the opposite side of the body than normal and it flowed seamlessly.


----------



## _Simon_

Popped into a new dojo tonight to watch! Was Goju Ryu, and was very cool to see! Quite different in flavour from the Shotokan style from last year!

The class did warmup exercises, then went through kata Gekisai Ichi. They then spent ages doing bunkai practice, breaking up the aspects of the kata, really awesome to see, as I've never done a great deal of bunkai! And it was great to see the instructor (who was very very attentive to all the students and very instructive) really trying to get the students to explore for themselves what the movements could be. She really encouraged them to think outside the box, and really see what actually works. She then went through what it could be, but was great seeing her encourage first just exploring it for themselves before explaining. And they spent alot of time on this too.

They then finished up with about 15 minutes of kumite, just very slow so they can really work on actually seeing the openings, moving off line, but I've never really seen sparring like this before. It was so different, it's hard to explain, but there was a lot more flow to it. Like there was no defined start or endpoint for movements, just a continuous flow and it was really fluid. The instructor used a lot of open hands, and did alot more circular stuff, haito uchi etc. And she encouraged them to use muchimi, which as I understand is more sticky, heavy, flowy way of generating power, rather than 0-100 exploding.

There were about six students training, a Shodan and mostly green belts (unsure what this equates to in Goju). I wouldn't say it was a super intense class at all like others I've tried, but it was fascinating, and it's something I'd love to explore. They offer a two week trial so I'll be in next Wednesday, to give it good go


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Popped into a new dojo tonight to watch! Was Goju Ryu, and was very cool to see! Quite different in flavour from the Shotokan style from last year!
> 
> The class did warmup exercises, then went through kata Gekisai Ichi. They then spent ages doing bunkai practice, breaking up the aspects of the kata, really awesome to see, as I've never done a great deal of bunkai! And it was great to see the instructor (who was very very attentive to all the students and very instructive) really trying to get the students to explore for themselves what the movements could be. She really encouraged them to think outside the box, and really see what actually works. She then went through what it could be, but was great seeing her encourage first just exploring it for themselves before explaining. And they spent alot of time on this too.
> 
> They then finished up with about 15 minutes of kumite, just very slow so they can really work on actually seeing the openings, moving off line, but I've never really seen sparring like this before. It was so different, it's hard to explain, but there was a lot more flow to it. Like there was no defined start or endpoint for movements, just a continuous flow and it was really fluid. The instructor used a lot of open hands, and did alot more circular stuff, haito uchi etc. And she encouraged them to use muchimi, which as I understand is more sticky, heavy, flowy way of generating power, rather than 0-100 exploding.
> 
> There were about six students training, a Shodan and mostly green belts (unsure what this equates to in Goju). I wouldn't say it was a super intense class at all like others I've tried, but it was fascinating, and it's something I'd love to explore. They offer a two week trial so I'll be in next Wednesday, to give it good go


I'll be interested in hearing more about this particular one. I've had some interest in Goju for a while, but never got around to investigating.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> I'll be interested in hearing more about this particular one. I've had some interest in Goju for a while, but never got around to investigating.


Yeah I'm interested to see how it will go. Have never seen straight-up (or should that be... circular.... up......) Goju in the flesh. But I liked the principles she was trying to teach.


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah I'm interested to see how it will go. Have never seen straight-up (or should that be... circular.... up......) Goju in the flesh. But I liked the principles she was trying to teach.


Very interesting Simon.   Good luck and keep us posted.


----------



## _Simon_

Wellity! Had my first class tonight at the Goju ryu dojo, it was awesome, really enjoyed it!

It was a different instructor this time, but he had planned prior to have the Sempai take class this time. Sensei still gave input on the side the whole time.

Started off with warmups and a few different exercises- lunges + w/twist, dead bug, wall sits + w/mae geri.

Then they extended a rope across the room, and we did a side plank and yoko geri (side kick) under and over, step up mawashi geri over rope, ducking/weaving under, ducking then cross + backfist.

Then worked on blocks with a partner, but we did something I thought was cool. We used the hand already up as a deflection then the blocking hand takes over (did jodan uke, chudan uchi uke, gedan barai). Then did some footwork with it, stepping off centre as you block. I'd never used the other hand as a deflection before like that (apart from application for mawashi uke), and as we drilled it I could feel it flowing more smoothly as I went.


THEN! Something I'd never done before... Sticky hands! Such a cool practice, and mainly involved keeping our hands touching, and trying to tap the person on the shoulder, and trying stop the other person from doing it. I guess it was working on sensitivity and feeling, using touch to read movement. It was hard to not tense up haha, but they said to keep arms, shoulders and hands relaxed. Then did it in shiko dachi and kneeling too. THEN we did it with eyes closed which was challenging, but very educational!

We then did some slow-paced sparring- one side attacking the other defending, only hands, only feet (defending with legs only too which I'd never done before), then both, then freestyle. They emphasised flowing movement, being relaxed, deflections and stepping off centre.

Finished with lots glute work on all fours. Increeedibly challenging and hard work haha..

The sensei was very attentive, had a good sense of humour, and was constantly checking with me to stop if I need to (as I'd told him about my pelvic condition). He still pushed us hard but acknowledged injuries people had. He came from Shotokan, and he said it was very hard style like Kyokushin. His transition to Goju was challenging, as he had alot of new ways of moving and so on to learn.

He didn't see the need to destroy people in training, and said their Goju gradings are tough, but people are more sore afterwards from muscular fatigue but never injured.

I could definitely see myself training here


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Wellity! Had my first class tonight at the Goju ryu dojo, it was awesome, really enjoyed it!
> 
> It was a different instructor this time, but he had planned prior to have the Sempai take class this time. Sensei still gave input on the side the whole time.
> 
> Started off with warmups and a few different exercises- lunges + w/twist, dead bug, wall sits + w/mae geri.
> 
> Then they extended a rope across the room, and we did a side plank and yoko geri (side kick) under and over, step up mawashi geri over rope, ducking/weaving under, ducking then cross + backfist.
> 
> Then worked on blocks with a partner, but we did something I thought was cool. We used the hand already up as a deflection then the blocking hand takes over (did jodan uke, chudan uchi uke, gedan barai). Then did some footwork with it, stepping off centre as you block. I'd never used the other hand as a deflection before like that (apart from application for mawashi uke), and as we drilled it I could feel it flowing more smoothly as I went.
> 
> 
> THEN! Something I'd never done before... Sticky hands! Such a cool practice, and mainly involved keeping our hands touching, and trying to tap the person on the shoulder, and trying stop the other person from doing it. I guess it was working on sensitivity and feeling, using touch to read movement. It was hard to not tense up haha, but they said to keep arms, shoulders and hands relaxed. Then did it in shiko dachi and kneeling too. THEN we did it with eyes closed which was challenging, but very educational!
> 
> We then did some slow-paced sparring- one side attacking the other defending, only hands, only feet (defending with legs only too which I'd never done before), then both, then freestyle. They emphasised flowing movement, being relaxed, deflections and stepping off centre.
> 
> Finished with lots glute work on all fours. Increeedibly challenging and hard work haha..
> 
> The sensei was very attentive, had a good sense of humour, and was constantly checking with me to stop if I need to (as I'd told him about my pelvic condition). He still pushed us hard but acknowledged injuries people had. He came from Shotokan, and he said it was very hard style like Kyokushin. His transition to Goju was challenging, as he had alot of new ways of moving and so on to learn.
> 
> He didn't see the need to destroy people in training, and said their Goju gradings are tough, but people are more sore afterwards from muscular fatigue but never injured.
> 
> I could definitely see myself training here


Sounds like a great first date  .


----------



## _Simon_

OH and in sparring they also encouraged us to use elbows, tetsui (hammerfist), uraken (backfist) etc as well! That was also something new to me, and alot of fun exploring


----------



## _Simon_

Second class was a morning one, and an hour instead of 1.5hours.

After warmups and exercises, did a big kihon session, which I LOVE. I know not everyone is a fan of standing in line and doing kihon, some find it boring, but there's something magical about it to me. Perhaps from Kyokushin days when we all did it together, the roars of kiais, sweat everywhere, and just the whole atmosphere was electric as we did basic techniques. That stuck with me.

Had slight variations in their blocks and some new ones which fascinated me. I've noticed that their circular stuff is more tightknit and compact of a circle, whereas in Kyokushin all our stuff was really quite large circles (eg mawashi uke).

And I love their uraken ganmen uchi. They sort of bring the elbow up and drop it forward, and it is much more whip-like or wave-like than I've done before.


----------



## _Simon_

Well that's it for my 2 week trial! I really really enjoyed it!

The last two classes we did padwork combos, focusing on closing the distance and entering in more and more, and eventually into a clinch with knees etc. Really about jamming or "crashing" into them to disrupt their hook punch attacks.

Also did stick kumite! That was a really new experience for me haha, have never wielded a stick before, then we tried with two sticks each. So many different things to be aware of, and obviously the distance between people is greater.

We also worked on some Goju kata that I'd never done. Their Taikyoku katas are different to the usual, it's still the same 'H' or 'I' pattern, but they have Taikyoku Jodan, Chudan, Gedan, Kake uke, and Mawashi uke versions. Quite liked them, something I'm going to practice. Then did Gekisai Ichi which I knew but quite enjoyed the variations and how they did it.

All in all a very friendly club, attentive, train hard and push you hard, but aren't a fan of destroying you, made sure to take injuries and safety into account, and really great facilities and centre that they operate in too. Still had a traditional feel and practice to it which I really dig, but were still casual enough to not have it feel too overwhelmingly serious. I actually learned quite alot in this short two weeks!

They did emphasize that Goju is close quarters/range, and pretty much everything that I've ever read about the differences between Goju ryu and Shotokan are actually pretty spot on from my experience of these last two clubs I've tried. I'm still really drawn to the Shotokan style, love the big dynamic, powerful moves, speed, crispness... but also appreciate the Goju emphasis on circular movements, deflections, close-in, soft/hard balance. Just unsure how my body would hold up to a Shotokan-type style, but only time and practice will tell.

There are few others on my list I wanted to try out (I know, I've really drawn it out, but I have a process, and I'm trusting and following it  ), so stay tuned! It won't be much longer I hope till I've found my place.


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Well that's it for my 2 week trial! I really really enjoyed it!
> 
> The last two classes we did padwork combos, focusing on closing the distance and entering in more and more, and eventually into a clinch with knees etc. Really about jamming or "crashing" into them to disrupt their hook punch attacks.
> 
> Also did stick kumite! That was a really new experience for me haha, have never wielded a stick before, then we tried with two sticks each. So many different things to be aware of, and obviously the distance between people is greater.
> 
> We also worked on some Goju kata that I'd never done. Their Taikyoku katas are different to the usual, it's still the same 'H' or 'I' pattern, but they have Taikyoku Jodan, Chudan, Gedan, Kake uke, and Mawashi uke versions. Quite liked them, something I'm going to practice. Then did Gekisai Ichi which I knew but quite enjoyed the variations and how they did it.
> 
> All in all a very friendly club, attentive, train hard and push you hard, but aren't a fan of destroying you, made sure to take injuries and safety into account, and really great facilities and centre that they operate in too. Still had a traditional feel and practice to it which I really dig, but were still casual enough to not have it feel too overwhelmingly serious. I actually learned quite alot in this short two weeks!
> 
> They did emphasize that Goju is close quarters/range, and pretty much everything that I've ever read about the differences between Goju ryu and Shotokan are actually pretty spot on from my experience of these last two clubs I've tried. I'm still really drawn to the Shotokan style, love the big dynamic, powerful moves, speed, crispness... but also appreciate the Goju emphasis on circular movements, deflections, close-in, soft/hard balance. Just unsure how my body would hold up to a Shotokan-type style, but only time and practice will tell.
> 
> There are few others on my list I wanted to try out (I know, I've really drawn it out, but I have a process, and I'm trusting and following it  ), so stay tuned! It won't be much longer I hope till I've found my place.


Sounds like a great place. Is it at the top of the list at this point?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Wellity! Had my first class tonight at the Goju ryu dojo, it was awesome, really enjoyed it!
> 
> It was a different instructor this time, but he had planned prior to have the Sempai take class this time. Sensei still gave input on the side the whole time.
> 
> Started off with warmups and a few different exercises- lunges + w/twist, dead bug, wall sits + w/mae geri.
> 
> Then they extended a rope across the room, and we did a side plank and yoko geri (side kick) under and over, step up mawashi geri over rope, ducking/weaving under, ducking then cross + backfist.
> 
> Then worked on blocks with a partner, but we did something I thought was cool. We used the hand already up as a deflection then the blocking hand takes over (did jodan uke, chudan uchi uke, gedan barai). Then did some footwork with it, stepping off centre as you block. I'd never used the other hand as a deflection before like that (apart from application for mawashi uke), and as we drilled it I could feel it flowing more smoothly as I went.
> 
> 
> THEN! Something I'd never done before... Sticky hands! Such a cool practice, and mainly involved keeping our hands touching, and trying to tap the person on the shoulder, and trying stop the other person from doing it. I guess it was working on sensitivity and feeling, using touch to read movement. It was hard to not tense up haha, but they said to keep arms, shoulders and hands relaxed. Then did it in shiko dachi and kneeling too. THEN we did it with eyes closed which was challenging, but very educational!
> 
> We then did some slow-paced sparring- one side attacking the other defending, only hands, only feet (defending with legs only too which I'd never done before), then both, then freestyle. They emphasised flowing movement, being relaxed, deflections and stepping off centre.
> 
> Finished with lots glute work on all fours. Increeedibly challenging and hard work haha..
> 
> The sensei was very attentive, had a good sense of humour, and was constantly checking with me to stop if I need to (as I'd told him about my pelvic condition). He still pushed us hard but acknowledged injuries people had. He came from Shotokan, and he said it was very hard style like Kyokushin. His transition to Goju was challenging, as he had alot of new ways of moving and so on to learn.
> 
> He didn't see the need to destroy people in training, and said their Goju gradings are tough, but people are more sore afterwards from muscular fatigue but never injured.
> 
> I could definitely see myself training here


That sounds like a pretty extensive list of stuff to get through in one class - you guys must have been moving the whole time. Fun!

Some of that sounds like exercises often seen in NGA dojos (at least, the ones I've been in). I do wonder how much of that came from Goju, since the person who brought NGA to the US was also ranked in Goju.


----------



## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> Sounds like a great place. Is it at the top of the list at this point?


It's definitely up there for sure! The Shotokan place, this one, and the first style I tried (the Aiki-karate one) are up there, the others I didn't feel as close to.

It was also cool I found out that the two people who run the dojo (and there other one an hour away) solely do only this as their work. They aren't really big on much crazy marketing etc, and on my last session as I thanked the instructor for this two week trial she didn't try to pressure me to join up or anything at all, said they've loved having me there with them, and that I know where they are if I want to train.

It'll be really hard after I've tried all the ones I want to, to then decide which out of them to commit to. Of course I'll overthink it, but am very excited just to start a journey in one. Well I guess this is still part of that journey too huh..


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> That sounds like a pretty extensive list of stuff to get through in one class - you guys must have been moving the whole time. Fun!
> 
> Some of that sounds like exercises often seen in NGA dojos (at least, the ones I've been in). I do wonder how much of that came from Goju, since the person who brought NGA to the US was also ranked in Goju.



Ah yeah haha, was a good hour and a half of training (actually went a little over), the warmup/exercise stuff wasn't long, but the three main bits of blocking drills, sticky hands and sparring were much more extensively focused on.

Oh really that's fascinating, yeah it is interesting those crossovers! It was a much more relaxed and flowy style... and I rather enjoyed the change of emphasis to what I'm used to.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Ah yeah haha, was a good hour and a half of training (actually went a little over), the warmup/exercise stuff wasn't long, but the three main bits of blocking drills, sticky hands and sparring were much more extensively focused on.
> 
> Oh really that's fascinating, yeah it is interesting those crossovers! It was a much more relaxed and flowy style... and I rather enjoyed the change of emphasis to what I'm used to.


The more I learn about Goju, the more sense it makes that Bowe was drawn to NGA.


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Well that's it for my 2 week trial! I really really enjoyed it!
> 
> The last two classes we did padwork combos, focusing on closing the distance and entering in more and more, and eventually into a clinch with knees etc. Really about jamming or "crashing" into them to disrupt their hook punch attacks.
> 
> Also did stick kumite! That was a really new experience for me haha, have never wielded a stick before, then we tried with two sticks each. So many different things to be aware of, and obviously the distance between people is greater.
> 
> We also worked on some Goju kata that I'd never done. Their Taikyoku katas are different to the usual, it's still the same 'H' or 'I' pattern, but they have Taikyoku Jodan, Chudan, Gedan, Kake uke, and Mawashi uke versions. Quite liked them, something I'm going to practice. Then did Gekisai Ichi which I knew but quite enjoyed the variations and how they did it.
> 
> All in all a very friendly club, attentive, train hard and push you hard, but aren't a fan of destroying you, made sure to take injuries and safety into account, and really great facilities and centre that they operate in too. Still had a traditional feel and practice to it which I really dig, but were still casual enough to not have it feel too overwhelmingly serious. I actually learned quite alot in this short two weeks!
> 
> They did emphasize that Goju is close quarters/range, and pretty much everything that I've ever read about the differences between Goju ryu and Shotokan are actually pretty spot on from my experience of these last two clubs I've tried. I'm still really drawn to the Shotokan style, love the big dynamic, powerful moves, speed, crispness... but also appreciate the Goju emphasis on circular movements, deflections, close-in, soft/hard balance. Just unsure how my body would hold up to a Shotokan-type style, but only time and practice will tell.
> 
> There are few others on my list I wanted to try out (I know, I've really drawn it out, but I have a process, and I'm trusting and following it  ), so stay tuned! It won't be much longer I hope till I've found my place.


I am sure you know, Goju Ryu, is as close to Kyokushin as any of the Okinawan karate systems go.  Although from practical experience, Kyokushin practitioners usually put too much "Go" and not enough "Ju".   

Definitely sounds like a good club to train in.  Look forward to hearing more about your journey and hopefully you will have found a new 'home'.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> I am sure you know, Goju Ryu, is as close to Kyokushin as any of the Okinawan karate systems go.  Although from practical experience, Kyokushin practitioners usually put too much "Go" and not enough "Ju".
> 
> Definitely sounds like a good club to train in.  Look forward to hearing more about your journey and hopefully you will have found a new 'home'.



Yeah for sure, it was great fun training there. And yes, one thing I need to learn and incorporate more is more "Ju"! Will keep you posted


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## _Simon_

Everything now on hold for the moment obviously... :s:s:s

Some crazy times ahead... but I've gotten used to alot of different ways to train at home so gonna delve into it. Stay safe everyone.

*deep bows*


----------



## _Simon_

So the Goju ryu dojo that I trained in earlier this year were all set to reopen, but lockdowns had to be reinstated in our state capital as case increases were getting quite concerning... so they've had to close up again and go back to online training. Even though one of their dojos are close to here and out of that zone, their other one is in the hotspot zone, so just decided to close both (they may live up there actually and not able to leave...)

Decided to sign up for their online training for the next month or so, as I enjoyed training for that two weeks and would love more insight into Goju ryu and how they train, but also it's their income and this is what they do for a living, so thought would be nice to help them out in whatever way I could.

Had the first session this morning, and even though my WHOLE computer/camera completely froze around the start haha, eventually got it back up and running, was a good session!

Worked on particular offensive and defensive combos, some calisthenics, did katas Tensho, Sanchin, and much to my surprise we worked on Naihanchi kata! It comes from Shotokan, but so awesome that they train that as I've always wanted to learn it.

See how the next few weeks go. OH and also Sensei Rick Hotton is offering online training recently too, which I am absolutely over the moon about... two different timeslots (for the different timezones) alternating them once a week, so I'll be doing that once a fortnight too.

Sounds like a nice balance with these . Until dojo training properly resumes, this will be great


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## _Simon_

Finished up having my last online session with the Goju guys today. Have mixed thoughts... I did enjoy some of it, but I really struggle with one of the instructors. It's a husband and wife team that usually alternate in the actual dojo but it was mainly the fellow who took the adult online classes.

I think maybe his style or emphasis of teaching I couldn't get on board with.. he very much has focused on 'smashing' and 'slaughtering' us (his words too haha), and that's sort of a big part of why I left my old style.

Felt more like a hardcore fitness class at times rather than any depth in karate... now I'm all for working hard and having some tough sessions, but felt like it was almost every time. He's a funny guy, but very masculine in energy, which of course there's nothing wrong with that, but an approach I don't feel I can connect with it.

The two sessions the other instructor took I actually really enjoyed, and quite like her style of teaching, way of explaining, emphasis on correct body mechanics and movement, breathing, and genuine care for the students. She stills works us hard at times but the intention and energy is different I feel, it's not a focus on annihilating us... if that makes sense!

So a bit lost as to whether I'll join this style when things go back to normal. I absolutely love Goju ryu and want so very much to learn it, but I'm learning that the club and instructor is more important than styles as that's where I'd be going every single week. So if 50% of the classes are taken by the instructor I really vibe with, is that good enough? Or maybe that might be a good balance to have alternating between the two?

That being said, perhaps it was purely an online thing, a way to really keep our fitness up. As I remember in the actual dojo classes I did he wasn't always that full on. But the intention and emphasis seemed one that I didn't gel with.

Hmmm... overthinking perhaps haha.. but I'd love anyone's thoughts or feedback here.

But nevertheless, the Shotokan dojo I trained with at the end of last year are also back doing online classes, so I contacted them and I'll be training with them for the next month


----------



## Flying Crane

Hi Simon, I would say listen to what your gut is telling you.  You make a good point that perhaps this isn’t a fair judgement given the unusual situation we are in, maybe he isn’t that way if the dojo was actually open.  But your gut instincts are telling you something.  Don’t ignore it.

I have definitely met folks and had instructors (briefly) who I simply could not train with.  It was a personality conflict and I did not feel comfortable with them.  You cannot train with someone who makes you feel that way.  If you try to just push yourself into it under the belief that the training will be worth it, you will end up hating it and it won’t last.  You will keep looking for a plausible excuse to stop coming.


----------



## JR 137

@Flying Crane is right on IMO. 

It could definitely be an online thing. Perhaps he doesn’t want to get carried away with technical details online when he’s going to have to make corrections in-person once this bubonic plague is over with. I honestly wouldn’t get too technical if I was temporarily teaching online. I’d make corrections, but I wouldn’t go too far with it because there’s only so much you can actually see on something like zoom anyway. I’d make sure it’s correct overall, then fine tune it once the dojo was fully open.

If there were a lot of good things, I’d visit it again to see if that was or wasn’t the case.


----------



## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> Hi Simon, I would say listen to what your gut is telling you.  You make a good point that perhaps this isn’t a fair judgement given the unusual situation we are in, maybe he isn’t that way if the dojo was actually open.  But your gut instincts are telling you something.  Don’t ignore it.
> 
> I have definitely met folks and had instructors (briefly) who I simply could not train with.  It was a personality conflict and I did not feel comfortable with them.  You cannot train with someone who makes you feel that way.  If you try to just push yourself into it under the belief that the training will be worth it, you will end up hating it and it won’t last.  You will keep looking for a plausible excuse to stop coming.



That's really helpful, appreciate your very thoughtful post.

Yeah it does feel like a conflict of sorts that I need to listen to. And that's exactly right, if I push myself into going there, it won't be something I'll enjoy and want to commit to. And I promised myself I wouldn't go down that sort of path again. It served its purpose and I learned alot, but moving on is moving on, and I'm getting clearer on where that is..

Reminds me of the movie Whiplash. I haven't seen it but only snippets. Where the young fellow wants to join a really elite college band, but its run by an absolute tyrant. So if he joins he'll improve his drumming immensely, but be treated horrendously in the process.

It's an interesting dilemma... how far do we want to go in becoming 'good' at something and what are willing to subject ourselves to, which may make us hate it in the end, and it also says something about how we 'deserve' to be treated. How we justify others' behaviour and put up with it just because we think it's where we 'should' be or what's others said will get you far.

Happened to me in a sort of similar way with classical piano, and karate...


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> @Flying Crane is right on IMO.
> 
> It could definitely be an online thing. Perhaps he doesn’t want to get carried away with technical details online when he’s going to have to make corrections in-person once this bubonic plague is over with. I honestly wouldn’t get too technical if I was temporarily teaching online. I’d make corrections, but I wouldn’t go too far with it because there’s only so much you can actually see on something like zoom anyway. I’d make sure it’s correct overall, then fine tune it once the dojo was fully open.
> 
> If there were a lot of good things, I’d visit it again to see if that was or wasn’t the case.



Haha yeah I was wondering that. Although he did give a few corrections, and the other instructor was very attentive in watching us and giving corrections, but for sure I hear what you mean.

Yeah definitely, and that's the thing, I know I'm never going to find a dojo that has absolutely everything I like, and have nothing unpleasant whatsoever. I'm certainly trying to remind myself of that anyway!

And of course it's a matter of weighing up whether the good overruns the bad, AND that it's enjoyable enough to keep me wanting to go. The fellow has said some things that made me bite my tongue, and almost roll my eyes haha.. and just the overly masculine attitude and approach don't gel with me.

Will have a ponder. Thanks heaps JR great food for thought.


----------



## oftheherd1

@Flying Crane and @JR 137 as well as others have given good food for thought.  And I think your thoughts in your Post 286 are really good things to think about.  What is the difference between your own hard time with a certain part of the instruction, and actual poor performance by the instructor.

I am amazed you have been able to try out all the different schools like you have.  That is a neat thing.  At least by the time you are done with that you should have a very good idea what school and art will be best for you.


----------



## _Simon_

oftheherd1 said:


> @Flying Crane and @JR 137 as well as others have given good food for thought.  And I think your thoughts in your Post 286 are really good things to think about.  What is the difference between your own hard time with a certain part of the instruction, and actual poor performance by the instructor.
> 
> I am amazed you have been able to try out all the different schools like you have.  That is a neat thing.  At least by the time you are done with that you should have a very good idea what school and art will be best for you.



@oftheherd1 thank you very much. I've always appreciated your thoughts and feedback, and for sure that's a really important distinction I need to delineate.

And yeah there is definitely a difference between just not liking a style of training and poor instruction. And also whether it's a style that I resonate with and want to follow comes into the whole mix. I couldn't say it was poor performance/teaching of the instructor, but perhaps a personality clash and an intuitive knowing that it's a direction and emphasis I don't think is beneficial for me anymore. His emphasis didn't gel with where I want to go, and on what direction my path is to be, spent years and years training in this very way and know I don't want to go back there.

(Knowing what I don't want also helps me in figuring out what I do want)

That being said, it may very well be just an online thing, hard to tell but it was brought up and emphasised alot.

And yeah it truly is awesome that I have the opportunity to explore all these, very grateful. Too many choices can certainly paralyse me though haha. I do know that exposure to Hotton Sensei's teachings has brought my training to life and has awakened something in me that I can't deny or turn away from, and that is exactly the very way I want to train and direction I want to go.

Something is still calling me and my thoughts often randomly go back to the very first school I tried out (the one you actually commented on as sounding great), so I very much feel I may be leaning towards there... we shall see


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

I've noticed that there are instructors like that-they give you an amazing workout, but after a point, they're not really _teaching. _Just kind of calling out what you should do, not really going beyond that. Which-if your goal is maintenance, or you just want to get in really good shape, is perfect. It even helps you practice the art, in the sense that repetition always helps. But if you want to actually improve your understanding of the art, you'll (or at least I) realize after a few months that it's leaving a hole in your training.

I feel like I see this more often in styles without belts, where there's not a syllabus they're supposed to be teaching.

Like JR said though- that might not be the case here. It might just be he doesn't want to get technical online, so he's making sure he gives everyone a workout and helping them stay in shape until in-person classes start up again.


----------



## _Simon_

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I've noticed that there are instructors like that-they give you an amazing workout, but after a point, they're not really _teaching. _Just kind of calling out what you should do, not really going beyond that. Which-if your goal is maintenance, or you just want to get in really good shape, is perfect. It even helps you practice the art, in the sense that repetition always helps. But if you want to actually improve your understanding of the art, you'll (or at least I) realize after a few months that it's leaving a hole in your training.
> 
> I feel like I see this more often in styles without belts, where there's not a syllabus they're supposed to be teaching.
> 
> Like JR said though- that might not be the case here. It might just be he doesn't want to get technical online, so he's making sure he gives everyone a workout and helping them stay in shape until in-person classes start up again.



Yeah for sure, and that's right that that suits a great majority. And I guess I'm looking for something deeper than "do this, don't do this", (which is necessary for beginner levels of course).

I'm definitely trying to take into account the circumstances, as that may be part of it. I am getting alot better though at reading people, their energy, emphasis and sort of what they're about (without overlabeling and limiting, but getting a general idea and trend).

And I also know I may be asking for alot haha, and it's not always completely realistic, even though what I'm looking for is definitely out there, but may not really be close to me here. I just know I don't want to settle for an art, especially one that I'd be committing to for many many years to come.

But what you say does make sense, and may indeed just be some training to get us by while seeing the limitations of it until we get back in the dojo. Thanks kempodis... errrr Monkey Turned Wolf


----------



## Flying Crane

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I've noticed that there are instructors like that-they give you an amazing workout, but after a point, they're not really _teaching. _Just kind of calling out what you should do, not really going beyond that. Which-if your goal is maintenance, or you just want to get in really good shape, is perfect. It even helps you practice the art, in the sense that repetition always helps. But if you want to actually improve your understanding of the art, you'll (or at least I) realize after a few months that it's leaving a hole in your training.
> 
> I feel like I see this more often in styles without belts, where there's not a syllabus they're supposed to be teaching.
> 
> Like JR said though- that might not be the case here. It might just be he doesn't want to get technical online, so he's making sure he gives everyone a workout and helping them stay in shape until in-person classes start up again.


There can be value in that though, in that it is an example that teaches people how to practice when they are by themselves.  I am often shocked at how people are unable to string together a coherent and effective practice session when they are alone and don’t have a teacher telling them what to do.  Apparently they go to class and simply play “follow the leader” without thinking about what they are doing.  Instead, they should pay attention to the example.


----------



## JR 137

Flying Crane said:


> There can be value in that though, in that it is an example that teaches people how to practice when they are by themselves.  I am often shocked at how people are unable to string together a coherent and effective practice session when they are alone and don’t have a teacher telling them what to do.  Apparently they go to class and simply play “follow the leader” without thinking about what they are doing.  Instead, they should pay attention to the example.


Couldn’t agree more. If you’ve been in classes for more than a few weeks, you should really know the format and be able to replicate it and modify it at home. My CI has a basic formula he follows practically every class. It’s quite simple and a logical progression...

Warmup and stretch
Solo (meaning without a partner) kicks
Solo hand techniques
Solo hand and kick combinations
Solo drills
Partner drills
Sparring
Cool down and stretch

Kata is usually either before or after solo drills, more often before. He’ll emphasize something over the others when appropriate. Working out alone, I substitute the partner drills and sparring with bag work. Or I’ll emphasize one aspect much more and touch on the others. It all depends on what I really want to accomplish that day and what I feel I need more work on. 

It’s not rocket science.


----------



## Flying Crane

JR 137 said:


> Couldn’t agree more. If you’ve been in classes for more than a few weeks, you should really know the format and be able to replicate it and modify it at home. My CI has a basic formula he follows practically every class. It’s quite simple and a logical progression...
> 
> Warmup and stretch
> Solo (meaning without a partner) kicks
> Solo hand techniques
> Solo hand and kick combinations
> Solo drills
> Partner drills
> Sparring
> Cool down and stretch
> 
> Kata is usually either before or after solo drills, more often before. He’ll emphasize something over the others when appropriate. Working out alone, I substitute the partner drills and sparring with bag work. Or I’ll emphasize one aspect much more and touch on the others. It all depends on what I really want to accomplish that day and what I feel I need more work on.
> 
> It’s not rocket science.


Literally from Day One of my martial career, I’ve been practicing at home between classes.  I just took what I learned in the class and practiced it the next day.  As I learned more, my home sessions increased in length.  Eventually I understood enough to be able to get creative and design my own drills to follow.  But I always pulled from the example of what we did in class.  It’s right there in front of you.

When people clue into this, then it becomes obvious that they can maintain their own training and keep fit during such times as Covid quarantine.  They don’t need to go to online training.  They can take ownership of their own training.

Training isn’t always about being shown the way and having everything explained.  Much of it is just about drilling it in and honing what you know and to some degree figuring it out yourself.  You don’t need a teacher with you every step of the way.  Especially in times like the present, when we cannot be together with our teachers, we can still train effectively and we can still progress in our development. 

So if you (the general You) are in an online session or a face-to-face session and it seems like it is more “working out” and less instruction, well take that as a lesson as well.  Steal those drills and ideas that make you sweat and work hard and hone what you already know.  And then do them at home when you cannot be with your teacher.


----------



## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> Literally from Day One of my martial career, I’ve been practicing at home between classes.  I just took what I learned in the class and practiced it the next day.  As I learned more, my home sessions increased in length.  Eventually I understood enough to be able to get creative and design my own drills to follow.  But I always pulled from the example of what we did in class.  It’s right there in front of you.
> 
> When people clue into this, then it becomes obvious that they can maintain their own training and keep fit during such times as Covid quarantine.  They don’t need to go to online training.  They can take ownership of their own training.
> 
> Training isn’t always about being shown the way and having everything explained.  Much of it is just about drilling it in and honing what you know and to some degree figuring it out yourself.  You don’t need a teacher with you every step of the way.  Especially in times like the present, when we cannot be together with our teachers, we can still train effectively and we can still progress in our development.
> 
> So if you (the general You) are in an online session or a face-to-face session and it seems like it is more “working out” and less instruction, well take that as a lesson as well.  Steal those drills and ideas that make you sweat and work hard and hone what you already know.  And then do them at home when you cannot be with your teacher.



Very well said!

In fact it's an interesting phenomena... when we all went into lockdown, my home training took on such a beautiful life of its own. I was training more than ever, and was able to really hone in on aspects I wanted to work on, and like you said, be creative with drills and learn how things can work in different ways.

Then when I started looking into online training (which I saw more as an opportunity to train with others and learn and broaden my own training ideas and expose myself to new ways of doing things), when alot of the online stuff starting wrapping up, when going back to doing my own stuff I actually had a moment and froze, as though I didn't know how to do that anymore!

So bizarre, it's amazing how reliant you can become on training and instruction from others. But once I realised I could indeed and have trained on my own it was easy. But there was a real moment of confusion!

And like you said it's about taking ownership of your own training, and I'm seeing that that autonomy is so very important in deepening your own understanding of what you're doing, and in being able to explore it on your own without direction.

I think both are important, but that self reliance can really spur on your own motivation and keenness for training too


----------



## _Simon_

Just did another online session with Hotton Sensei this morning... still buzzing from it. Can't explain how much I resonate with it and how much it impact my training and understanding... AND the direction that I want to go. Brings such clarity, meaning, naturalness and life in me... that's all, just buzzin'


----------



## _Simon_

Dojos are still not open, so I trained with the Shotokan guys online for a month and it was good fun, so very welcoming and didn't even charge me even though I insisted! In the end I felt it wasn't the direction I wanted or the training I wanted to commit to long term.

So I decided to go with the Goju folks again online, and I tell ya what, I'm glad you guys offered your thoughts that it may just be an online thing that may make the teaching different, and to try them again if there's some good stuff there. I've really loved it! I may have unfairly assumed or looked only for things I didn't like or that maybe I'd imagined, as the guy instructor has been mostly really great. He actually does give really great feedback and watches us all, tailoring feedback individually and collectively. He's still a funny guy haha but it's a good practice in not taking someone too seriously and being aware enough whether someone is just being a jokester or a bully.

But when I asked if I could join them again, I ever so subtly asked the female instructor whether she would be taking any of the adults classes? Even casually mentioned that I felt like I really clicked with and loved her style of teaching, and she said yeah her husband and her have very different styles of teaching, complimentary but different. And I thought... yeah you're right! She did say that yeah she mostly been taking the kids online classes but was a good reminder to her to take some of the adults classes. She's run a few and I've absolutely loved them.

Really click with Goju ryu, feels like a really cool thing to explore for me, they don't emphasise really long deep stances, focus on alot more freedom of movement, posture, still good technique but making allowances for individuals which is awesome, bunkai, really emphasising that with kata it's really about the principles etc. And the sparring is just darn awesome, they encourage trying anything and everything mostly haha.

So funny that! I have some thoughts as to what to do when things open back up, we shall see whether it's doable


----------



## Flying Crane

_Simon_ said:


> Dojos are still not open, so I trained with the Shotokan guys online for a month and it was good fun, so very welcoming and didn't even charge me even though I insisted! In the end I felt it wasn't the direction I wanted or the training I wanted to commit to long term.
> 
> So I decided to go with the Goju folks again online, and I tell ya what, I'm glad you guys offered your thoughts that it may just be an online thing that may make the teaching different, and to try them again if there's some good stuff there. I've really loved it! I may have unfairly assumed or looked only for things I didn't like or that maybe I'd imagined, as the guy instructor has been mostly really great. He actually does give really great feedback and watches us all, tailoring feedback individually and collectively. He's still a funny guy haha but it's a good practice in not taking someone too seriously and being aware enough whether someone is just being a jokester or a bully.
> 
> But when I asked if I could join them again, I ever so subtly asked the female instructor whether she would be taking any of the adults classes? Even casually mentioned that I felt like I really clicked with and loved her style of teaching, and she said yeah her husband and her have very different styles of teaching, complimentary but different. And I thought... yeah you're right! She did say that yeah she mostly been taking the kids online classes but was a good reminder to her to take some of the adults classes. She's run a few and I've absolutely loved them.
> 
> Really click with Goju ryu, feels like a really cool thing to explore for me, they don't emphasise really long deep stances, focus on alot more freedom of movement, posture, still good technique but making allowances for individuals which is awesome, bunkai, really emphasising that with kata it's really about the principles etc. And the sparring is just darn awesome, they encourage trying anything and everything mostly haha.
> 
> So funny that! I have some thoughts as to what to do when things open back up, we shall see whether it's doable


Could also be that the teacher is learning to be a better teacher In the online venue.  This is a new arrangement for most people, and everyone is learning how to be effective with it.  It takes time, and there may be some missteps or false starts until people get better at it.


----------



## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> Could also be that the teacher is learning to be a better teacher In the online venue.  This is a new arrangement for most people, and everyone is learning how to be effective with it.  It takes time, and there may be some missteps or false starts until people get better at it.



Very true!


----------



## _Simon_

Still online training, BUT restrictions have been easing up of late, and one of the instructors has organised to come down for the day this Sunday to run outdoor sessions with two people at a time, so this will be my first in person training since February!

Really, really looking forward to it. Quite nervous though, and my anxiety has been probably the worst it has ever been... but I've been making sure to go at my own pace and take my time with everything, whilst also making sure I step outside my comfort zone and get out a bit more. Being at home for pretty much 7 months straight has its pros and cons I guess...

But looking forward to in person outdoor training


----------



## _Simon_

Well... today was awesome 

This morning was my usual fornightly online session, all about body dynamics and different ways of generating power, then the in-person Goju ryu training later in the afternoon!

Ahhh felt so good training with people again!

There were about 2-3 or so, and I ended up doing two sessions back to back as they asked if I wanted to stick around! Some advanced kata + bunkai (just discussing bunkai obviously, no contact), and I really loved that they emphasised that with the katas we have a really good grasp on, to make it our own. Eg what works for our body, and if we want to add a little more hip, shoulder, movement etc to really explore that. So rare... I'm used to styles which are very rigid with a kata having to be done EXACT, no wiggle room.

The second session we did some stick work! Another student offered me one of his, we did the whole wiping down of the stick first, but very cool drills we did. Did a contract drill with each other, then basic strikes.

I... am.... spent! But very happy with today


----------



## _Simon_

_Simon_ said:


> Well... today was awesome
> 
> This morning was my usual fornightly online session, all about body dynamics and different ways of generating power, then the in-person Goju ryu training later in the afternoon!
> 
> Ahhh felt so good training with people again!
> 
> There were about 2-3 or so, and I ended up doing two sessions back to back as they asked if I wanted to stick around! Some advanced kata + bunkai (just discussing bunkai obviously, no contact), and I really loved that they emphasised that with the katas we have a really good grasp on, to make it our own. Eg what works for our body, and if we want to add a little more hip, shoulder, movement etc to really explore that. So rare... I'm used to styles which are very rigid with a kata having to be done EXACT, no wiggle room.
> 
> The second session we did some stick work! Another student offered me one of his, we did the whole wiping down of the stick first, but very cool drills we did. Did a contract drill with each other, then basic strikes.
> 
> I... am.... spent! But very happy with today


Oh and I'll also add that it felt like the old times in Okinawa, where they were forbidden to practice karate so had to sneak off and meet with people in the middle of the night!

Admittedly it wasn't the middle of the night, and it WAS legally allowed, but it was still off down a corridor and in a secret courtyard area in a small group haha. Kickin' it old school!

I also found it VERY challenging training with a mask... I of course am greatly in favour of wearing them, but yes, very very hot and hard to breathe, any advice is appreciated. Maybe there are masks around designed for use in sports... breathable etc...


----------



## Flying Crane

_Simon_ said:


> Oh and I'll also add that it felt like the old times in Okinawa, where they were forbidden to practice karate so had to sneak off and meet with people in the middle of the night!
> 
> Admittedly it wasn't the middle of the night, and it WAS legally allowed, but it was still off down a corridor and in a secret courtyard area in a small group haha. Kickin' it old school!
> 
> I also found it VERY challenging training with a mask... I of course am greatly in favour of wearing them, but yes, very very hot and hard to breathe, any advice is appreciated. Maybe there are masks around designed for use in sports... breathable etc...


I think the better solution is to find an open area like a park with lots of room, where the wind blows, and you can keep lots of extra space between people, like 12-15 feet.  Then take the mask off.


----------



## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> I think the better solution is to find an open area like a park with lots of room, where the wind blows, and you can keep lots of extra space between people, like 12-15 feet.  Then take the mask off.


Yeah that makes sense.. just got the word today because of announcements made the other day, that we can resume full outdoor classes . We'll be training underneath a shelter next to an oval, but yeah hoping we can spread out and train without masks, otherwise will look into a different sort to wear..


----------



## _Simon_

I recently emailed the dojo I was 100% sure of joining (the very first dojo I tried, the very first post in this thread), just to ask whether I can join their lovely dojo when they open back up... and just found out they're closed, no longer operating.

I'm absolutely devastated about this 

I guess back to the drawing board....

I've been training with these current guys for a bit now but really not too sure I'll stay... one instructor I actually really like, but as stated previously I just do not vibe with the other. It's not just a personality thing, but I really do not like how he teaches... I won't go into detail here but let's just say I was not thrilled recently. I continually keep overlooking these things, but I just can't anymore. @Flying Crane you were absolutely right earlier when you said don't ignore that gut feeling. And it's to the point where I just am not excited about leaving for training. It's not a way I want my training to be or feel like when I drive there.

I kept questioning myself, kept thinking "Is it just me, is it something I'm harbouring that I'm not letting go of? Do I need this approach perhaps?" But the more I'm exposed to him it just does not feel nice at all. And not in just a being challenged sort of way (which is what I kept inquiring whether that's it), but in a real dissonance and an approach that is just not for me.

If anything, it's introduced me to Goju ryu, and I am mesmerised by it, and will continue down this line of inquiry of this style...


----------



## Flying Crane

_Simon_ said:


> I recently emailed the dojo I was 100% sure of joining (the very first dojo I tried, the very first post in this thread), just to ask whether I can join their lovely dojo when they open back up... and just found out they're closed, no longer operating.
> 
> I'm absolutely devastated about this
> 
> I guess back to the drawing board....
> 
> I've been training with these current guys for a bit now but really not too sure I'll stay... one instructor I actually really like, but as stated previously I just do not vibe with the other. It's not just a personality thing, but I really do not like how he teaches... I won't go into detail here but let's just say I was not thrilled recently. I continually keep overlooking these things, but I just can't anymore. @Flying Crane you were absolutely right earlier when you said don't ignore that gut feeling. And it's to the point where I just am not excited about leaving for training. It's not a way I want my training to be or feel like when I drive there.
> 
> I kept questioning myself, kept thinking "Is it just me, is it something I'm harbouring that I'm not letting go of? Do I need this approach perhaps?" But the more I'm exposed to him it just does not feel nice at all. And not in just a being challenged sort of way (which is what I kept inquiring whether that's it), but in a real dissonance and an approach that is just not for me.
> 
> If anything, it's introduced me to Goju ryu, and I am mesmerised by it, and will continue down this line of inquiry of this style...


I’m sorry to hear about that first school, that is unfortunate.  I’m sure Covid will have that affect on many schools and we will lose some of them.  

Keep listening to your gut; it’s telling you something.  I was in a school like that, where I could just tell that I wasn’t going to have a happy relationship with the teacher.  There is nothing for it, you just can’t learn in that environment, and since this should be something that you do because you enjoy it, well the choice becomes obvious.


----------



## dvcochran

Sorry to hear about any school closure regardless of reason. It impacts the whole industry.
I think you said it for yourself. If is feels wrong just driving to class it is unlikely you will ever enjoy the workout. 
Your journey has been an arduous one but have stuck it out. I hope you find what you are seeking soon.


----------



## Buka

_Simon_ said:


> I recently emailed the dojo I was 100% sure of joining (the very first dojo I tried, the very first post in this thread), just to ask whether I can join their lovely dojo when they open back up... and just found out they're closed, no longer operating.
> 
> I'm absolutely devastated about this
> 
> I guess back to the drawing board....
> 
> I've been training with these current guys for a bit now but really not too sure I'll stay... one instructor I actually really like, but as stated previously I just do not vibe with the other. It's not just a personality thing, but I really do not like how he teaches... I won't go into detail here but let's just say I was not thrilled recently. I continually keep overlooking these things, but I just can't anymore. @Flying Crane you were absolutely right earlier when you said don't ignore that gut feeling. And it's to the point where I just am not excited about leaving for training. It's not a way I want my training to be or feel like when I drive there.
> 
> I kept questioning myself, kept thinking "Is it just me, is it something I'm harbouring that I'm not letting go of? Do I need this approach perhaps?" But the more I'm exposed to him it just does not feel nice at all. And not in just a being challenged sort of way (which is what I kept inquiring whether that's it), but in a real dissonance and an approach that is just not for me.
> 
> If anything, it's introduced me to Goju ryu, and I am mesmerised by it, and will continue down this line of inquiry of this style...



I know what you mean, Simon. I've trained under a whole lot of people, a lot of different personalities. I've trained under some people I didn't particularly like. But there were some I just couldn't take for too long.

But for me, it wasn't what I felt when I drove there, it was what I felt when I would drive home, "Man, I just don't like this F."

Sorry that place you wanted to train at is out of business. Looks like there's going to be a lot of that happening.


----------



## Yokozuna514

Sorry to hear that the school you were interested in is shutting down.  Hopefully it will not be permanent.   There are a number of schools in our area that are also having difficult time with Covid restrictions.   Good luck with the search and hope you find something soon.


----------



## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> I’m sorry to hear about that first school, that is unfortunate.  I’m sure Covid will have that affect on many schools and we will lose some of them.
> 
> Keep listening to your gut; it’s telling you something.  I was in a school like that, where I could just tell that I wasn’t going to have a happy relationship with the teacher.  There is nothing for it, you just can’t learn in that environment, and since this should be something that you do because you enjoy it, well the choice becomes obvious.



Thanks, well said, and yeah I think they closed because of Covid. I'm not sure how that works though, it wasn't a full time dojo, just a community hall they rented, unless it was contract based and it was too expensive in the end. But yeah it felt like that would have been the place for me, although they only trained once a week so I was going to find elsewhere too. Now I can focus my attention just on one place I guess.

And yes very true... I also find this very interesting, it seems as though it may have to have elements of enjoying the style AND the instructor. I've found when each happens in isolation it's not as fulfilling; ie I've trained styles that I enjoyed but didn't vibe with the instructor, and I've trained styles that I didn't really click with but the instructor was really good. Just an interesting observation..


----------



## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> Sorry to hear about any school closure regardless of reason. It impacts the whole industry.
> I think you said it for yourself. If is feels wrong just driving to class it is unlikely you will ever enjoy the workout.
> Your journey has been an arduous one but have stuck it out. I hope you find what you are seeking soon.



Thank you, yes very true. Certainly has been a drawn out journey, and I'm treating this path as just another aspect of MA training


----------



## _Simon_

Buka said:


> I know what you mean, Simon. I've trained under a whole lot of people, a lot of different personalities. I've trained under some people I didn't particularly like. But there were some I just couldn't take for too long.
> 
> But for me, it wasn't what I felt when I drove there, it was what I felt when I would drive home, "Man, I just don't like this F."
> 
> Sorry that place you wanted to train at is out of business. Looks like there's going to be a lot of that happening.



Thanks Buka, that's interesting, the drive home too is telling. Sometimes I'd feel great (always with instructor A teaching), but with the other instructor it wasn't a nice feeling, and I didn't really even feel safe with them.. hard to explain.

If it's going to be a 50/50 experience I don't know if that enough to keep me going..


----------



## Flying Crane

It may be that once we have a trustworthy vaccine in widespread distribution, that other teacher may be able to reopen.  Perhaps he just decided that it is too uncertain right now and not worth the risk.  Sounds like the Covid numbers Down Under are a lot better than we have in the States.  But I could understand someone just doesn’t want to risk it, and doesn’t want to deal with the on-again off-again nature of it until we are back on solid footing.

I was thinking of getting a group going in a local park with plenty of distancing outdoors, but as our Covid numbers just kept skyrocketing, I decided it isn’t worth the risk.  I would never forgive myself if someone in a group that I assembled for a fun activity, got sick and had some serious repercussions.  We don’t need to do this right now.  It can wait.  I can keep training by myself in the meantime.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> Sorry to hear that the school you were interested in is shutting down.  Hopefully it will not be permanent.   There are a number of schools in our area that are also having difficult time with Covid restrictions.   Good luck with the search and hope you find something soon.



Thank you very much, yeah and I made sure to tell the instructor that I loved how he taught and that if he ever started up anything again to let me know as I'd still be really interested. I think I'd be more devastated perhaps if I had have started there a couple of years ago, and then to have it shut down now.


----------



## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> It may be that once we have a trustworthy vaccine in widespread distribution, that other teacher may be able to reopen.  Perhaps he just decided that it is too uncertain right now and not worth the risk.  Sounds like the Covid numbers Down Under are a lot better than we have in the States.  But I could understand someone just doesn’t want to risk it, and doesn’t want to deal with the on-again off-again nature of it until we are back on solid footing.
> 
> I was thinking of getting a group going in a local park with plenty of distancing outdoors, but as our Covid numbers just kept skyrocketing, I decided it isn’t worth the risk.  I would never forgive myself if someone in a group that I assembled for a fun activity, got sick and had some serious repercussions.  We don’t need to do this right now.  It can wait.  I can keep training by myself in the meantime.



That's true, as this is the second time he's had to close up the dojo due to lockdown, it is possible it's not worth reopening yet. Hoping that's the case. He did say his school is no longer operating, but yes we'll see. I do know of one dojo that could have reopened, but put out a message that he's just going to reopen early next year instead. It's so hard to tell how long it'll all play out..

That's very responsible of you, and totally fair enough.


----------



## _Simon_

So, moving swiftly on!

After hearing about that dojo closing I spent an afternoon being frustrated which is fair enough, but I took a deep breathe, said "okay", and kept a-lookin!

Sent out an email to two dojos, one of them unfortunately isn't open yet as it's a community centre and they're limited at the moment with when they can start allowing training.

The other Goju ryu dojo responded with a plethora of information on their style, fees, training times, approach in terms of it being a smaller club so they offer very friendly and personalised instruction, and very warmly thanked me for asking about their club. Reading up on this dojo's website it really resonated with me what they emphasise and their orientation...

Also said that they're not for profit, they're not interested in having large numbers and making profits, but just love karate and want to share it with others.

I asked if I could sit and watch a class, and as long as all health guidelines are followed that's all fine, so I'm heading up Friday!

Now... I have extended my dojo range a tad haha... this one is an hour drive away. I figure... if it's a dojo that I just really click with in every way and it feels like home, that won't be an issue at all in the slightest (*fingers crossed). Training is a bit later too which suits better, can chuck on martial arts podcasts in the car haha. I'd be training twice a week, although they offer 4 or 5 days a week training which is no extra charge if I want to train at the other dojo.

Can't wait


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> So, moving swiftly on!
> 
> After hearing about that dojo closing I spent an afternoon being frustrated which is fair enough, but I took a deep breathe, said "okay", and kept a-lookin!
> 
> Sent out an email to two dojos, one of them unfortunately isn't open yet as it's a community centre and they're limited at the moment with when they can start allowing training.
> 
> The other Goju ryu dojo responded with a plethora of information on their style, fees, training times, approach in terms of it being a smaller club so they offer very friendly and personalised instruction, and very warmly thanked me for asking about their club. Reading up on this dojo's website it really resonated with me what they emphasise and their orientation...
> 
> Also said that they're not for profit, they're not interested in having large numbers and making profits, but just love karate and want to share it with others.
> 
> I asked if I could sit and watch a class, and as long as all health guidelines are followed that's all fine, so I'm heading up Friday!
> 
> Now... I have extended my dojo range a tad haha... this one is an hour drive away. I figure... if it's a dojo that I just really click with in every way and it feels like home, that won't be an issue at all in the slightest (*fingers crossed). Training is a bit later too which suits better, can chuck on martial arts podcasts in the car haha. I'd be training twice a week, although they offer 4 or 5 days a week training which is no extra charge if I want to train at the other dojo.
> 
> Can't wait


Sounds great. Best of luck with the class. I hope you let us know how it goes.


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> So, moving swiftly on!
> 
> After hearing about that dojo closing I spent an afternoon being frustrated which is fair enough, but I took a deep breathe, said "okay", and kept a-lookin!
> 
> Sent out an email to two dojos, one of them unfortunately isn't open yet as it's a community centre and they're limited at the moment with when they can start allowing training.
> 
> The other Goju ryu dojo responded with a plethora of information on their style, fees, training times, approach in terms of it being a smaller club so they offer very friendly and personalised instruction, and very warmly thanked me for asking about their club. Reading up on this dojo's website it really resonated with me what they emphasise and their orientation...
> 
> Also said that they're not for profit, they're not interested in having large numbers and making profits, but just love karate and want to share it with others.
> 
> I asked if I could sit and watch a class, and as long as all health guidelines are followed that's all fine, so I'm heading up Friday!
> 
> Now... I have extended my dojo range a tad haha... this one is an hour drive away. I figure... if it's a dojo that I just really click with in every way and it feels like home, that won't be an issue at all in the slightest (*fingers crossed). Training is a bit later too which suits better, can chuck on martial arts podcasts in the car haha. I'd be training twice a week, although they offer 4 or 5 days a week training which is no extra charge if I want to train at the other dojo.
> 
> Can't wait


Good luck with the new dojo.  Hopefully you can find a new home there and continue on with training.  Keep us in the loop.


----------



## _Simon_

So I checked out the class the other night, wow, much to tell!

It was exactly an hours drive, which was easy enough to find and it flew by. Walked in and the instructor chatted with me for quite some time! And I felt bad as he kept talking to me for almost an HOUR into their class! The members just were doing their own thing and getting assistance from the other higher grades, but I was blown away with that. Oh and they train for about 2 hours as well, never seen that before round these parts!

Told me all about the history of their style, and it's a very specific lineage of Goju ryu. I found it all incredibly fascinating... and we seemed to be on the same page regarding the intertwining of karate and spiritual matters, Zen etc... basically that karate is about so much more than fighting. He also feels it's rare to really find true Goju ryu, and feels the way they teach it is better. Still had respect for others, but of course clubs will say the way they do it is best .

Anyway they started the class, he told me this wasn't really a typical class as they've only just started training in the dojo recently due to everything opening up, so they worked solely on kata for the whole time.

He had a few views on certain styles (Kyokushin, Shotokan etc) which made sense, and they're very conscious about karate being for longevity.

One thing I was a bit unsure about was that he said they don't really do sparring, people got injured too much etc. I really feel free sparring has an important place, but then again, my last style was very sparring heavy, so perhaps this could be a segway into another aspect of karate?

I'd still love to work on sparring, so if I stayed with this club I would find a way... maybe search out a club or fellow martial artists to do some sparring... or I even thought of doing the fight nights that my old club do 4 times a year (25x rounds of dojo sparring in a row)... we'll see.

I found the class utterly fascinating... he was very very technical in approach. He was watching a student closely do kata and almost after every single movement he would correct him and get him to do it again. MANY times haha. He even told me that he's had a few black belts from other styles come train and they left because it was too hard. Not physically he said, but mentally.

So this at least tells me that he has a very high standard and really wants the student to understand it. I could see that the corrections he made were of importance, and not just to be arbitrarily anal about it. So I would have to be prepared not to take it personally if I'm corrected an excessive amount, but treat it as part of training, good feedback, shoshin (beginner's mind), and hey, I'm there to learn!

He really, really emphasised relaxation which I appreciate a great deal. There was a depth of body mechanics, vibration and whiplike movement that was emphasised, and seeing the way the instructor moved (he's 77 years old by the way!), it was incredible the power and whip he generated. He definitely has a deep understanding of this stuff, you can see it and feel it in his energy for sure.

Also spoke of your particular facial expression within kata and how it informs your technique and even structure.

It's something I really wanted to explore, learning those deep body mechanics, relaxation and flow that seemingly isn't really taught from the places I've looked.

Asked if I could join them tomorrow night, so will see how we go


----------



## _Simon_

.... wow!

Had my first class, and it was truly fascinating. Honestly had to employ true "shoshin" (beginner's mind) and remain open, as it was an experience!

Had a blast! They do everything so differently, and I had to be aware of and try let go of old habits which will be quite the challenge.

The people there are all really warm and friendly, and incredibly helpful, and they all spoke very highly of the instructor, saying you'll never find a better instructor. He's certainly incredibly experienced.

Even the warmup was fascinating... lots of breathing focus, cool wrist exercises, even an interesting inner thigh massage while rotating the hip outwards.

We focused mainly on basics tonight and only really covered 3 in depth. Chudan tsuki, jodan uke and gedan uke.

Tell ya what I had to completely relearn how I punched haha. They do it a bit differently. They don't do the classic full chamber, the fist is just under pec, and the elbow is pointing towards ground. To the unsuspecting person it probably looks like a lazy chamber haha, but the reasoning is that it keeps the punch (and fist) in a more direct and straight line rather than it travelling upwards. Also actually feels more relaxed to me. They also use a bit more hip to launch it, and they make sure shoulder blade isn't pushed forwards, but to lock it in with the lats/pecs.

Jodan uke is also alot higher up in end position.

He then got me with one of the black belts to go through the techniques and guide me. Had to really feel my way into it but I learned quickly enough.

Then went through their first kata (basic one that most karate schools do, Taikyoku). Another different experience. Their front stance is much shorter than what I'm used to, and again I had to keep check that my punches weren't throwing my structure out of whack through excessive forward push of my shoulder blades.

The main instructor really showed me the different effect it had by leaning on and pushing me, could definitely feel it. He also said I learned really quickly and had a good body awareness.

The 1-on-1 time I had was more than I've ever had anywhere else, was a little daunting at first but very helpful.

Some key notes:
-Relaxation is emphasised alot
-Elbow and hip/center connection is crucial.
-Lock the lats with techniques, and arm loose + relaxed. This makes sure you're solid in structure and have stability whilst still remaining mobile with the arms to do what they need to.

It wasn't an exhausting or overly demanding session physically, but the 2 hours we trained flew by!

It has certainly intrigued me a great deal... will be heading up Friday again


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

_Simon_ said:


> So I checked out the class the other night, wow, much to tell!
> 
> It was exactly an hours drive, which was easy enough to find and it flew by. Walked in and the instructor chatted with me for quite some time! And I felt bad as he kept talking to me for almost an HOUR into their class! The members just were doing their own thing and getting assistance from the other higher grades, but I was blown away with that. Oh and they train for about 2 hours as well, never seen that before round these parts!
> 
> Told me all about the history of their style, and it's a very specific lineage of Goju ryu. I found it all incredibly fascinating... and we seemed to be on the same page regarding the intertwining of karate and spiritual matters, Zen etc... basically that karate is about so much more than fighting. He also feels it's rare to really find true Goju ryu, and feels the way they teach it is better. Still had respect for others, but of course clubs will say the way they do it is best .
> 
> Anyway they started the class, he told me this wasn't really a typical class as they've only just started training in the dojo recently due to everything opening up, so they worked solely on kata for the whole time.
> 
> He had a few views on certain styles (Kyokushin, Shotokan etc) which made sense, and they're very conscious about karate being for longevity.
> 
> One thing I was a bit unsure about was that he said they don't really do sparring, people got injured too much etc. I really feel free sparring has an important place, but then again, my last style was very sparring heavy, so perhaps this could be a segway into another aspect of karate?
> 
> I'd still love to work on sparring, so if I stayed with this club I would find a way... maybe search out a club or fellow martial artists to do some sparring... or I even thought of doing the fight nights that my old club do 4 times a year (25x rounds of dojo sparring in a row)... we'll see.
> 
> I found the class utterly fascinating... he was very very technical in approach. He was watching a student closely do kata and almost after every single movement he would correct him and get him to do it again. MANY times haha. He even told me that he's had a few black belts from other styles come train and they left because it was too hard. Not physically he said, but mentally.
> 
> So this at least tells me that he has a very high standard and really wants the student to understand it. I could see that the corrections he made were of importance, and not just to be arbitrarily anal about it. So I would have to be prepared not to take it personally if I'm corrected an excessive amount, but treat it as part of training, good feedback, shoshin (beginner's mind), and hey, I'm there to learn!
> 
> He really, really emphasised relaxation which I appreciate a great deal. There was a depth of body mechanics, vibration and whiplike movement that was emphasised, and seeing the way the instructor moved (he's 77 years old by the way!), it was incredible the power and whip he generated. He definitely has a deep understanding of this stuff, you can see it and feel it in his energy for sure.
> 
> Also spoke of your particular facial expression within kata and how it informs your technique and even structure.
> 
> It's something I really wanted to explore, learning those deep body mechanics, relaxation and flow that seemingly isn't really taught from the places I've looked.
> 
> Asked if I could join them tomorrow night, so will see how we go


Just saw this, and noticed a couple of red flags that I've run into before. Generally not stuff that I realize until after a few weeks, but I'm reading it here. Keep in mind, these are red flags for me, not everyone has the same goal or personality, so they may not be relevant. I also don't want to dissuade you if you really like the class (like your next post suggests), so if you feel I'm off base, feel free to ignore the below.

1. Talking to you for an hour of a 2 hour class. Does he do this with every newcomer? I can see that very easily becoming bothersome, when I show up for a class, and the instructor isn't doing anything for half of it. Especially when he could have easily set up a separate time to meet with you (even if you were a surprise guest) if he wanted to go that in depth.

2. I find the zen stuff really cool, and makes sense with no sparring (along with the longevity), but sometimes it's not 'legit' spiritual. You can probably tell that better being there.

3. Clubs often feel their way is better. But anytime someone says that theirs is the only "real" X-art, it screams of arrogance, and whispers of cultish to me. 

4. Why were people getting injured too much in sparring? Was this something that actually happened (and if so are they not teaching control there), or is this just a preconception of his that sparring=injury=no longevity?

5. How long had that one guy who was doing a kata been training for? And how long since he learned that kata? If the answer to those is a short time, ignore this one. If it's been a while, that sounds either like his training isn't effective if the students still need correction every movement, or the instructor likes to feel important and is correcting things that really don't matter/aren't technically 'wrong'. 

6. How does he know black belts from other styles left because it was mentally too hard? I highly doubt they told him that. The next few sentences are my own assumption, based on other instructors that I've met. This sounds like another arrogance thing-black belts come, stay for a few classes, don't continue, he assumes it's because his training is too mentally tough (or they told him something that he translates as that). In reality, there could be a number of reasons that they left, from it being too mentally draining, not liking the no sparring, his technical advice goes against their own training/beliefs, he just annoys them, it's not a good fit, anything. But I know instructors, who whenever someone leaves, it's that they couldn't 'handle' the training.


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> .... wow!
> 
> Had my first class, and it was truly fascinating. Honestly had to employ true "shoshin" (beginner's mind) and remain open, as it was an experience!
> 
> Had a blast! They do everything so differently, and I had to be aware of and try let go of old habits which will be quite the challenge.
> 
> The people there are all really warm and friendly, and incredibly helpful, and they all spoke very highly of the instructor, saying you'll never find a better instructor. He's certainly incredibly experienced.
> 
> Even the warmup was fascinating... lots of breathing focus, cool wrist exercises, even an interesting inner thigh massage while rotating the hip outwards.
> 
> We focused mainly on basics tonight and only really covered 3 in depth. Chudan tsuki, jodan uke and gedan uke.
> 
> Tell ya what I had to completely relearn how I punched haha. They do it a bit differently. They don't do the classic full chamber, the fist is just under pec, and the elbow is pointing towards ground. To the unsuspecting person it probably looks like a lazy chamber haha, but the reasoning is that it keeps the punch (and fist) in a more direct and straight line rather than it travelling upwards. Also actually feels more relaxed to me. They also use a bit more hip to launch it, and they make sure shoulder blade isn't pushed forwards, but to lock it in with the lats/pecs.
> 
> Jodan uke is also alot higher up in end position.
> 
> He then got me with one of the black belts to go through the techniques and guide me. Had to really feel my way into it but I learned quickly enough.
> 
> Then went through their first kata (basic one that most karate schools do, Taikyoku). Another different experience. Their front stance is much shorter than what I'm used to, and again I had to keep check that my punches weren't throwing my structure out of whack through excessive forward push of my shoulder blades.
> 
> The main instructor really showed me the different effect it had by leaning on and pushing me, could definitely feel it. He also said I learned really quickly and had a good body awareness.
> 
> The 1-on-1 time I had was more than I've ever had anywhere else, was a little daunting at first but very helpful.
> 
> Some key notes:
> -Relaxation is emphasised alot
> -Elbow and hip/center connection is crucial.
> -Lock the lats with techniques, and arm loose + relaxed. This makes sure you're solid in structure and have stability whilst still remaining mobile with the arms to do what they need to.
> 
> It wasn't an exhausting or overly demanding session physically, but the 2 hours we trained flew by!
> 
> It has certainly intrigued me a great deal... will be heading up Friday again


Osu, Simon.  It sounds like you had a very interesting first session.  Look forward to hearing more about your journey into Goju Ryu.


----------



## _Simon_

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Just saw this, and noticed a couple of red flags that I've run into before. Generally not stuff that I realize until after a few weeks, but I'm reading it here. Keep in mind, these are red flags for me, not everyone has the same goal or personality, so they may not be relevant. I also don't want to dissuade you if you really like the class (like your next post suggests), so if you feel I'm off base, feel free to ignore the below.
> 
> 1. Talking to you for an hour of a 2 hour class. Does he do this with every newcomer? I can see that very easily becoming bothersome, when I show up for a class, and the instructor isn't doing anything for half of it. Especially when he could have easily set up a separate time to meet with you (even if you were a surprise guest) if he wanted to go that in depth.
> 
> 2. I find the zen stuff really cool, and makes sense with no sparring (along with the longevity), but sometimes it's not 'legit' spiritual. You can probably tell that better being there.
> 
> 3. Clubs often feel their way is better. But anytime someone says that theirs is the only "real" X-art, it screams of arrogance, and whispers of cultish to me.
> 
> 4. Why were people getting injured too much in sparring? Was this something that actually happened (and if so are they not teaching control there), or is this just a preconception of his that sparring=injury=no longevity?
> 
> 5. How long had that one guy who was doing a kata been training for? And how long since he learned that kata? If the answer to those is a short time, ignore this one. If it's been a while, that sounds either like his training isn't effective if the students still need correction every movement, or the instructor likes to feel important and is correcting things that really don't matter/aren't technically 'wrong'.
> 
> 6. How does he know black belts from other styles left because it was mentally too hard? I highly doubt they told him that. The next few sentences are my own assumption, based on other instructors that I've met. This sounds like another arrogance thing-black belts come, stay for a few classes, don't continue, he assumes it's because his training is too mentally tough (or they told him something that he translates as that). In reality, there could be a number of reasons that they left, from it being too mentally draining, not liking the no sparring, his technical advice goes against their own training/beliefs, he just annoys them, it's not a good fit, anything. But I know instructors, who whenever someone leaves, it's that they couldn't 'handle' the training.



That's fair enough. Reading your post, I honestly felt rather disheartened, BUT that being said I really do appreciate that feedback, and think it's incredibly important, especially if someone has biases or blind spots, having them pointed out is crucial. Disheartened because of how long I've been on this search, and finally feeling like I've found my place, and then it potentially not being all it's cracked up to be. Especially as it feels like the closest I've come to finding a place with the depth that I wanted in my training.

But again, I truly do appreciate those reflections, especially if it's something you've come across in your experience. And especially as you are one of the people on this forum I do truly respect and have always honoured your thoughts on martial arts.

Yeah I did briefly wonder about a couple of these things for sure. If I ever got a strong enough sense that a club was cultlike I would certainly be out the door very fast. Already having experienced something "off" in one of the places I tried earlier in this whole journey (instructor basically not allowing me to cross train outside the dojo, paranoid that I'm possibly stealing their club's training ideas etc), I am cautious and not naive in this regard.

I'll speak to the points you made, not in a defensive or argumentative way, but just in terms of how I may understand them.

1) He's an older fellow (77 years old) and a little eccentric, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt hehe, and reckon he just got caught up with telling me the history etc. And the other black belts were already teaching and working with the students and their kata, so have a feeling if that wasn't the case he would've cut it short, but I don't know.

2) Yep definitely, and I would be quick to pick that up. But the spiritual stuff did not feature in the class I watched and the one I took at all, it was more us just when we were chatting upon me meeting him we got onto that. So I'm unsure how much it's incorporated in the training. But the training was very principle driven, practical (in terms of physically showing the effect in the body) and very much a focus on correct structure and the internal body feel.

3) Yes that's one thing I didn't really like... I don't think he ever said theirs is the only real Goju, but he did say he doesn't reckon anyone practices true Goju anymore (which is sort of the same thing). He was pretty disparaging of other styles and methods (saying that a person he was chatting to once said he trained in Kyokushin and he said what are ya stupid?, and people in TKD just get the kids to kick bags over and over). Even bagwork I overheard he wasn't a fan of... That one was bizarre, but seemed to imply that you can learn that through drilling on the floor and correct body mechanics etc. Seems to be a really pigeonholed view of how to train.

I figure he's been around a long time in the arts, and he's likely to have gathered some opinions along the way.

And I do wonder, genuine question here, if a place is great and classes/lessons are enjoyable, how much do we turn a blind eye to what may be rigid opinions that the instructor holds? If there's value in what is being taught, how much do we let that other stuff weigh in? Ie at what point is it detrimental?

4) Unsure about the sparring, but it seems like it may be just an association. He is also not a fan of tournaments (particularly point fighting), and did also say that in sparring you just lose your structure. I would personally think that is the PERFECT environment to work on that, how to keep your structure, balance, posture in the midst of that pressure. I don't think you can do it in a vacuum. I think you can train it really well in kata, but to then dismiss sparring because you too easily lose your structure... yeah I dunno about that.

And I think they do partner drills of sorts relating to sparring, but it may not be free sparring, have yet to find out.

5) Not too sure, but I think he was the grade above the one needed for that kata. So perhaps they grade them with a basic understanding of the kata, and then get into finer details in subsequent grades.

6) Yes not sure about this one, and how he would know. Perhaps there was a follow up email or something, or maybe they said to him. I've known students to tell the instructor straight up why they are leaving (heard one student in my old style say the training was too boring, and they prefer more bunkai training etc, actual words). To be fair I don't think I have ever encountered a place with such a real technical focus like this. But you're very correct, it could have been anything why they didn't come back.

He honestly doesn't seem arrogant at all in many ways, said he himself still has so much to learn, and after every class he genuinely thanks all the students for coming, but there are some things which seem just biased. But my question above still stands... how much is that a factor if the training is really engaging and what we want to learn?

There's only this week and next left until training finishes, so I'll do that and then reevaluate..


----------



## isshinryuronin

_Simon_ said:


> Even bagwork I overheard he wasn't a fan of... That one was bizarre, but seemed to imply that you can learn that through drilling on the floor and correct body mechanics etc. Seems to be a really pigeonholed view of how to train.



Most of your experience there seems OK, except this quoted part that you recognize as being "bizarre."  "True" Gojuryu should embrace the old traditional methods of training.  For more advanced students, this includes makiwara striking and body conditioning (don't mean pushups, but absorbing repetitive strikes on one's body.)  Along these lines, I should think heavy bag work would not be shunned. 

The fact that the sensei is not much into sport sparring doesn't bother me, as that can corrupt the original combat concepts of Okinawan karate.  However, in its place should be fairly intense two man training of Goju fighting techniques.

I suggest you take a look on YouTube of a few native Okinawan Goju karate masters training (and not just kata.)  This will give you a good idea what that style is really about.  Then spend some time at the dojo and compare how they train with the videos you watched.

Bottom line is if you think that the dojo teaches and trains in a way that is beneficial for you, go for it.  If you start and decide its not for you, quit.  Good luck.


----------



## _Simon_

isshinryuronin said:


> Most of your experience there seems OK, except this quoted part that you recognize as being "bizarre."  "True" Gojuryu should embrace the old traditional methods of training.  For more advanced students, this includes makiwara striking and body conditioning (don't mean pushups, but absorbing repetitive strikes on one's body.)  Along these lines, I should think heavy bag work would not be shunned.
> 
> The fact that the sensei is not much into sport sparring doesn't bother me, as that can corrupt the original combat concepts of Okinawan karate.  However, in its place should be fairly intense two man training of Goju fighting techniques.
> 
> I suggest you take a look on YouTube of a few native Okinawan Goju karate masters training (and not just kata.)  This will give you a good idea what that style is really about.  Then spend some time at the dojo and compare how they train with the videos you watched.
> 
> Bottom line is if you think that the dojo teaches and trains in a way that is beneficial for you, go for it.  If you start and decide its not for you, quit.  Good luck.



Yes definitely odd... but I'd need to look into it more, I don't know the specifics exactly but just from me overhearing him talking to someone. Perhaps it's due to people just thwacking a bag and learning bad habits. But meh.. that stuff usually gets taught with proper bag and padwork (we did in my old dojo).

Yeah as far as I know it's not Okinawan and not Japanese Goju Kai, but along the Seito (orthodox) lineage of Goju ryu (don't know heaps about it though), so not sure what practices are emphasised apart from what I've seen. That being said, I've got a heavy bag at home which I can use to test out what we learn.

And I also agree with the importance of contact conditioning of that sort. Not to destroy yourself but as a properly implemented and incremental practice.

Yeah honestly it's piqued my interest enough, so will see how it goes... thanks for your thoughts!


----------



## isshinryuronin

_Simon_ said:


> not Okinawan and not Japanese Goju Kai, but along the Seito (orthodox) lineage of Goju ryu



Goju is an Okinawan art in origin.  The godfather of Goju can be said to be Higashionna Kanryo, who studied for many years in China and developed the Okinawan Naha-te branch of karate.  His student, Miyagi Chojun, took this Naha training (though he spent some time in China as well,) and taught what he eventually named Goju. 

My understanding is that "seito" refers to any traditional Okinawan style that is true to the root (say, pre-1930's) concepts of the art.  Perhaps there are other ideas of what seito means?  When talking of Japanese Goju Kai, we would most likely be referring to Yamaguchi Gogen's organization (kai.)  He was a student of Miyagi's and responsible for much of the spread of Goju around the world.
The word "seito" is often included in his organization's name/description, but does not directly refer to any specific lineage or style.

Other branches of Goju exist as well, but all of them are Okinawan at their core.   If the sensei you're talking about is true seito oriented, he should be embracing the training techniques I described earlier, as well as other Goju traditional values.


----------



## WaterGal

_Simon_ said:


> Thanks, well said, and yeah I think they closed because of Covid. I'm not sure how that works though, it wasn't a full time dojo, just a community hall they rented, unless it was contract based and it was too expensive in the end.



I know a couple of guys who run this kind of program, and they've closed their programs indefinitely as well. For both of them, it wasn't really the money, it's just.... one guy is really worried about, what if he gets infected from a student, and gets his wife and kid sick. Another guy, when he was able to resume classes, almost all of his students weren't ready to come back, and also he works in healthcare in some capacity so I think he's under a lot of extra stress/work right now. So both of them are putting their programs on hold indefinitely.


----------



## WaterGal

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> 4. Why were people getting injured too much in sparring? Was this something that actually happened (and if so are they not teaching control there), or is this just a preconception of his that sparring=injury=no longevity?



Yeah, I feel like "we stopped doing sparring because people would get hurt" is generally a bit of a cop-out. The instructor should try to figure out why people were getting hurt too much and try to find a way to fix that. Maybe that means having beginner students do pad work to develop control and accuracy, and then they start doing actual sparring at some more advanced rank. Maybe that means wearing more safety gear, or use more restricted rules. But I don't think sparring should just be cast aside.



> 5. How long had that one guy who was doing a kata been training for? And how long since he learned that kata? If the answer to those is a short time, ignore this one. If it's been a while, that sounds either like his training isn't effective if the students still need correction every movement, or the instructor likes to feel important and is correcting things that really don't matter/aren't technically 'wrong'.



Also, students can only keep so many corrections in mind in one day, so IMO it's better to focus on just a few key points each class. And it's important to find things to praise as well, so the student doesn't feel dispirited. If students feel like you appreciate their effort and think well of them, they take the corrections more to heart.


----------



## Bruce7

I come from a time of no pads and full contact sparing.
No one was hurt seriously.
We did have broken noses and bruised ribs.
We were not allowed to spare until the teacher said we were ready, normally 6 months or longer.
We had to show control of mind and body before we could spare.
Today students with very little skill put on pads and spare.


I watch a boy with no control kick a girl hard in the face and made her cry.
My granddaughter has very good control and never hurts anyone.
But when she saw the girl cry, I could tell it upset her.
It was her turn to spare, in stood of blocking, dodging and throwing kicks that just missed.
She kick him in the head with a mean roundhouse and followup with a hard front kick to the stomach.
It was wrong for her to lose control, but I was secretly proud of her.


----------



## _Simon_

isshinryuronin said:


> Goju is an Okinawan art in origin.  The godfather of Goju can be said to be Higashionna Kanryo, who studied for many years in China and developed the Okinawan Naha-te branch of karate.  His student, Miyagi Chojun, took this Naha training (though he spent some time in China as well,) and taught what he eventually named Goju.
> 
> My understanding is that "seito" refers to any traditional Okinawan style that is true to the root (say, pre-1930's) concepts of the art.  Perhaps there are other ideas of what seito means?  When talking of Japanese Goju Kai, we would most likely be referring to Yamaguchi Gogen's organization (kai.)  He was a student of Miyagi's and responsible for much of the spread of Goju around the world.
> The word "seito" is often included in his organization's name/description, but does not directly refer to any specific lineage or style.
> 
> Other branches of Goju exist as well, but all of them are Okinawan at their core.   If the sensei you're talking about is true seito oriented, he should be embracing the training techniques I described earlier, as well as other Goju traditional values.



Yeah definitely, you would think Seito referred to traditional Okinawan Goju. I do know it's a specific lineage, the Ichikawa Sensei lineage (which is linked directly through the line to Chojun Miyagi Sensei). I also don't know much I should say on here haha, as I certainly do not want to badmouth places and be too specific about it.

Yeah will see what pans out. I've got two weeks total of training till end of the year, and I'll also be able to witness a grading next week.

But yeah it's still an interesting conundrum... if the teaching is great and interesting, but there's a disrespect towards other styles and training methods (and a real bolstering up of their own) do we stay, or is that enough to leave? To me, traditional karate is based on courtesy and respect, so I wouldn't want to be in a club that teaches disrespect. There's an immense amount we can learn from our brothers and sisters in karate. To me it's one big family.

Although in my previous style, the chief instructor of the branch definitely was not a fan of certain styles. Even Sosai Oyama was clear in his view of other karate styles (BUT whether that was disrespect or simply calling out ineffectiveness I'm unsure).


----------



## _Simon_

WaterGal said:


> I know a couple of guys who run this kind of program, and they've closed their programs indefinitely as well. For both of them, it wasn't really the money, it's just.... one guy is really worried about, what if he gets infected from a student, and gets his wife and kid sick. Another guy, when he was able to resume classes, almost all of his students weren't ready to come back, and also he works in healthcare in some capacity so I think he's under a lot of extra stress/work right now. So both of them are putting their programs on hold indefinitely.


Yeah it is very sad for many dojos... but totally understandable, especially for the health risk reasons. I'm just not sure if this fellow had like a renewable yearly contract sort of thing or whether it's a month-to-month thing.


----------



## _Simon_

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, I feel like "we stopped doing sparring because people would get hurt" is generally a bit of a cop-out. The instructor should try to figure out why people were getting hurt too much and try to find a way to fix that. Maybe that means having beginner students do pad work to develop control and accuracy, and then they start doing actual sparring at some more advanced rank. Maybe that means wearing more safety gear, or use more restricted rules. But I don't think sparring should just be cast aside.



Yep, me too. From their website info they say they do noncontact sparring, with full protective gear. Surely injury would be VERY rare. But he said in person that they don't really spar anymore. I might ask one of the students..




WaterGal said:


> Also, students can only keep so many corrections in mind in one day, so IMO it's better to focus on just a few key points each class. And it's important to find things to praise as well, so the student doesn't feel dispirited. If students feel like you appreciate their effort and think well of them, they take the corrections more to heart.



Very true, well said. But that being said, there was still alot of encouragement after.


----------



## _Simon_

Bruce7 said:


> I come from a time of no pads and full contact sparing.
> No one was hurt seriously.
> We did have broken noses and bruised ribs.
> We were not allowed to spare until the teacher said we were ready, normally 6 months or longer.
> We had to show control of mind and body before we could spare.
> Today students with very little skill put on pads and spare.
> 
> 
> I watch a boy with no control kick a girl hard in the face and made her cry.
> My granddaughter has very good control and never hurts anyone.
> But when she saw the girl cry, I could tell it upset her.
> It was her turn to spare, in stood of blocking, dodging and throwing kicks that just missed.
> She kick him in the head with a mean roundhouse and followup with a hard front kick to the stomach.
> It was wrong for her to lose control, but I was secretly proud of her.



Yeah I came from a bare knuckle full contact school Bruce, whilst there were injuries we all had immense respect for each other and looked after each other (mostly  ).

And yeah I fully agree with not throwing newbies straight into sparring.

Hahaha yeah, I'd admire that secretly too, what spirit and standing up for herself!


----------



## WaterGal

_Simon_ said:


> Yep, me too. From their website info they say they do noncontact sparring, with full protective gear. Surely injury would be VERY rare. But he said in person that they don't really spar anymore. I might ask one of the students..



Full gear AND no contact? Yeah, at that point, I think the only kind of injury you'd be getting would be self-inflicted accidents, like the guy I saw at a TKD tournament who tripped and fell out of the ring and smashed his face on a metal folding chair.


----------



## _Simon_

WaterGal said:


> Full gear AND no contact? Yeah, at that point, I think the only kind of injury you'd be getting would be self-inflicted accidents, like the guy I saw at a TKD tournament who tripped and fell out of the ring and smashed his face on a metal folding chair.


Hahaha youch!

Yeah I know, I don't quite understand it haha, surely they weren't getting injured that much with all that... must be a general association he made, sparring=injuries


----------



## _Simon_

..... okay, more definitely came to light in last night's class. I truly did not enjoy the class, and was a bit taken aback.

@Monkey Turned Wolf and @WaterGal your observations about the incessant corrections and also grade level expectations were spot on. Last night was next level...

Anyway, started the class, worked on very basic stuff again, tsuki, jodan uke. Had a senior student paired with me to watch my kata. Did Taikyoku kata which I'm well versed in, but they do it quite differently.

So after almost every movement I got corrections, which was fine I just rolled with them, and tried my best to correct them, which I managed to. The reasoning behind why some techniques are done the way they're done is a little weird (jodan uke being done with the arm reeeeally close to the body and face) and I don't necessarily agree, but I went along with it. He was very much modelling that same method of scrutiny as the main instructor.

Then we all spread out and the instructor got the senior grades to one by one perform a kata to demonstrate. Here's where I was absolutely gobsmacked...

A brown belt young girl was up first doing Seiunchin, did the kata which looked pretty good, and straight after he went through the 4 million things she did wrong. She looked rather dejected, and she went through it again but this time he corrected as she went. Every. Little. Thing.

Next up was actually a 1st kyu, who is actually going for his Shodan next week. He actually chose a much lower grade kata Saifa, which I believe is required for 5th kyu. I thought oh this'll be great to watch! I am not joking when I say the instructor stopped him after EVERY move, and saying how wrong it was (sometimes in a bit of a snide fashion), and doing the incredibly, incredibly anal corrections.

If he's going for Shodan next week, and he's getting this much correction on a 5th kyu kata..... how much would that dash his confidence? And why is the kata still not up to scratch I wonder?

All the time on the sideline I observed very carefully, not only the instructor, but I looked at the student's faces, and oh man they just looked so dejected and dispirited... it was really sad. Also DURING the kata you could see them constantly darting their eyes towards the instructor, almost making sure they were impressing him and getting approval. It was a really bizarre scene, and I scanned the other students watching to see their reaction but they're probably just so used to it and think it's common.

It's interesting that that approach is believed to help students most, whereas I can't possibly see how you could learn in that environment. Not only the absolute overload of information, absolute beyond perfectionism (which ultimately I feel is missing the point in terms of understanding and applying the principles behind movements rather than getting that 2° angle change), and also the student's doubt and confidence level... I'm by no means a fan of excessive praise, but come on...

I even made a point afterwards to go up to some of them and say their kata was awesome which I really did feel, and they all dipped their heads shaking it saying "nah nah nah it wasn't".

AGAIN at the end of the class, he then mentioned to the class that he's had black belts come and say he's too fussy with kata. And he said that's how they were with him in Japan, and he said that to them, and they said yes we are, if people think they're too fussy let them leave, we won't change that.

And even though it teaches the importance of relaxation, I don't see how how you possibly remain relaxed internally with that level of scrutiny. I know that knowing myself, and my excessive perfectionism at times, this can't be healthy for me.

So, could I learn alot being here? Yes, definitely could. Could I see myself enjoying it long term? ..... I just don't think so.

So I'll do the two classes next week but I have a few places in mind that I'll try next year. It's been quite an eye opening journey thus far....


----------



## Flying Crane

_Simon_ said:


> ..... okay, more definitely came to light in last night's class. I truly did not enjoy the class, and was a bit taken aback.
> 
> @Monkey Turned Wolf and @WaterGal your observations about the incessant corrections and also grade level expectations were spot on. Last night was next level...
> 
> Anyway, started the class, worked on very basic stuff again, tsuki, jodan uke. Had a senior student paired with me to watch my kata. Did Taikyoku kata which I'm well versed in, but they do it quite differently.
> 
> So after almost every movement I got corrections, which was fine I just rolled with them, and tried my best to correct them, which I managed to. The reasoning behind why some techniques are done the way they're done is a little weird (jodan uke being done with the arm reeeeally close to the body and face) and I don't necessarily agree, but I went along with it. He was very much modelling that same method of scrutiny as the main instructor.
> 
> Then we all spread out and the instructor got the senior grades to one by one perform a kata to demonstrate. Here's where I was absolutely gobsmacked...
> 
> A brown belt young girl was up first doing Seiunchin, did the kata which looked pretty good, and straight after he went through the 4 million things she did wrong. She looked rather dejected, and she went through it again but this time he corrected as she went. Every. Little. Thing.
> 
> Next up was actually a 1st kyu, who is actually going for his Shodan next week. He actually chose a much lower grade kata Saifa, which I believe is required for 5th kyu. I thought oh this'll be great to watch! I am not joking when I say the instructor stopped him after EVERY move, and saying how wrong it was (sometimes in a bit of a snide fashion), and doing the incredibly, incredibly anal corrections.
> 
> If he's going for Shodan next week, and he's getting this much correction on a 5th kyu kata..... how much would that dash his confidence? And why is the kata still not up to scratch I wonder?
> 
> All the time on the sideline I observed very carefully, not only the instructor, but I looked at the student's faces, and oh man they just looked so dejected and dispirited... it was really sad. Also DURING the kata you could see them constantly darting their eyes towards the instructor, almost making sure they were impressing him and getting approval. It was a really bizarre scene, and I scanned the other students watching to see their reaction but they're probably just so used to it and think it's common.
> 
> It's interesting that that approach is believed to help students most, whereas I can't possibly see how you could learn in that environment. Not only the absolute overload of information, absolute beyond perfectionism (which ultimately I feel is missing the point in terms of understanding and applying the principles behind movements rather than getting that 2° angle change), and also the student's doubt and confidence level... I'm by no means a fan of excessive praise, but come on...
> 
> I even made a point afterwards to go up to some of them and say their kata was awesome which I really did feel, and they all dipped their heads shaking it saying "nah nah nah it wasn't".
> 
> AGAIN at the end of the class, he then mentioned to the class that he's had black belts come and say he's too fussy with kata. And he said that's how they were with him in Japan, and he said that to them, and they said yes we are, if people think they're too fussy let them leave, we won't change that.
> 
> And even though it teaches the importance of relaxation, I don't see how how you possibly remain relaxed internally with that level of scrutiny. I know that knowing myself, and my excessive perfectionism at times, this can't be healthy for me.
> 
> So, could I learn alot being here? Yes, definitely could. Could I see myself enjoying it long term? ..... I just don't think so.
> 
> So I'll do the two classes next week but I have a few places in mind that I'll try next year. It's been quite an eye opening journey thus far....


Good that you checked them out, and now you can make an informed decision.

Regarding the excessive focus on the kata minutia.  In my opinion, a lot of people put an inappropriate focus on what they feel kata should be, which in my opinion it should not.

I think kata for many people becomes something of a product.  It is the representation of the results of their martial training: to do the kata, for the approval of viewers. That becomes their karate or kung fu or tae kwon do or whatever.  Kata as a product, done with “perfection”.

This is my opinion, but I offer it as a point of view that I feel can be a healthier way of looking at it.  For me, there is no such thing as perfection, in kata and forms.  This is because kata is not a product, it isn’t to be done for the satisfaction of an audience.  It is not performance art.  It is also never “finished”.  It is not something to be put on a shelf and pointed to as perfection.  

Kata/forms are simply a tool, used to train and drill and develop your skill.  Kata is to be done, over and over.  The details matter, but they matter in that they help you refine your technique and your skills, which is a process that never ends.  Is your kata good?  Well it is as long as you keep doing it.  In the same way that hitting a heavy bag is good, as long as you keep hitting it with regularity.  Hitting the heavy bag helps you develop certain skills.  If you fall out of the habit of hitting the heavy bag, then those skills begin to deteriorate.  So you keep at it, knowing that there is always room for improvement.  The practice itself is what is important, not searching for some aspect of the practice to be a product.  The true product of training is more nebulous: it is one’s skill, which is not just hitting the heavy bag, nor is it doing kata.  The heavy bag and Kata are just two ways of helping you develop your skill.

The practice of kata should be viewed in the same way as the practice of hitting the heavy bag.  Keep doing it, to improve your skill.  Just keep doing it.  But don’t do it to satisfy an audience.  And if the teacher, as audience, has critique, it needs to be for the purpose of improving technique, and not for improving performance.  A million micro-corrections don’t help technique when dumped on you all at once.  To me, that feels like kata as performance art.  

I hope I am conveying my thoughts in a clear way, and I hope this perspective can be helpful in your training.


----------



## isshinryuronin

Flying Crane said:


> Good that you checked them out, and now you can make an informed decision.
> 
> Regarding the excessive focus on the kata minutia.  In my opinion, a lot of people put an inappropriate focus on what they feel kata should be, which in my opinion it should not.
> 
> I think kata for many people becomes something of a product.  It is the representation of the results of their martial training: to do the kata, for the approval of viewers. That becomes their karate or kung fu or tae kwon do or whatever.  Kata as a product, done with “perfection”.
> 
> This is my opinion, but I offer it as a point of view that I feel can be a healthier way of looking at it.  For me, there is no such thing as perfection, in kata and forms.  This is because kata is not a product, it isn’t to be done for the satisfaction of an audience.  It is not performance art.  It is also never “finished”.  It is not something to be put on a shelf and pointed to as perfection.
> 
> Kata/forms are simply a tool, used to train and drill and develop your skill.  Kata is to be done, over and over.  The details matter, but they matter in that they help you refine your technique and your skills, which is a process that never ends.  Is your kata good?  Well it is as long as you keep doing it.  In the same way that hittig a heavy bag is good, as long as you keep hitting it with regularity.  Hitting the heavy bag helps you develop certain skills.  If you fall out of the habit of hitting the heavy bag, then those skills begin to deteriorate.  So you keep at it, knowing that there is always room for improvement.  The practice itself is what is important, not searching for some aspect of the practice to be a product.  The true product of training is more nebulous: it is one’s skill, which is not just hitting the heavy bag, nor is it doing kata.  The heavy bag and Kata are just two ways of helping you develop your skill.
> 
> The practice of kata should be viewed in the same way as the practice of hitting the heavy bag.  Keep doing it, to improve your skill.  Just keep doing it.  But don’t do it to satisfy an audience.  And if the teacher, as audience, has critique, it needs to be for the purpose of improving technique, and not for improving performance.  A million micro-corrections don’t help technique when dumped on you all at once.  To me, that feels like kata as performance art.
> 
> I hope I am conveying my thoughts in a clear way, and I hope this perspective can be helpful in your training.



It's a shame that kata has in many cases  deteriorated into performance art, rather than a means of perfecting fighting technique.  It was hard for an Okinawan kata to do well in open tournaments with Japanese judges as they favored deep, low, stances and extended thrusting punches, things not often found in a number of Okinawan styles.  But while not as visually appealing, they were much more illustrative of effective and practical combat.  So not matter how well it was performed, it scored low.  The same for Korean judges who tended to favor seeing high spinning kicks.

I know this from experience.  When talking about visual art, it's all about the eye of the beholder. 

"Perfection" depends on your definition.  Is it executing a visually appealing form with well defined extended lines (as looked for in gymnastic or diving competitions) or properly executing a technique with shorter, more subtle (hard to discern the application if the judge or spectator is not familiar with it) moves that are usable in a realistic fluid fight?

Beyond this, though, are weapons competitions where scoring is based on how high you can throw the weapon up in air and how many times you can spin around before you catch it.  This abandons all pretense of being actual martial arts as it has no relationship to fighting technique (unless you're trying to kill a flock of birds).

I like Crane's terms of "product" and "tool".  I had a hammer 50 years old (and much used) from my father's old tool box.  It had a plain wooden handle and dull steel head.  It would have lasted another 50 years if I kept it when I moved. That's a tool.  I have had other hammers that were polished and had contoured handles that didn't do the job as well.  Those were products.  Marketing, packaging, appearance have nothing to do with efficacy.  Give me a good tool any day.  That's hitting the nail on the head.


----------



## Flying Crane

isshinryuronin said:


> It's a shame that kata has in many cases  deteriorated into performance art, rather than a means of perfecting fighting technique.  It was hard for an Okinawan kata to do well in open tournaments with Japanese judges as they favored deep, low, stances and extended thrusting punches, things not often found in a number of Okinawan styles.  But while not as visually appealing, they were much more illustrative of effective and practical combat.  So not matter how well it was performed, it scored low.  The same for Korean judges who tended to favor seeing high spinning kicks.
> 
> I know this from experience.  When talking about visual art, it's all about the eye of the beholder.
> 
> "Perfection" depends on your definition.  Is it executing a visually appealing form with well defined extended lines (as looked for in gymnastic or diving competitions) or properly executing a technique with shorter, more subtle (hard to discern the application if the judge or spectator is not familiar with it) moves that are usable in a realistic fluid fight?
> 
> Beyond this, though, are weapons competitions where scoring is based on how high you can throw the weapon up in air and how many times you can spin around before you catch it.  This abandons all pretense of being actual martial arts as it has no relationship to fighting technique (unless you're trying to kill a flock of birds).
> 
> I like Crane's terms of "product" and "tool".  I had a hammer 50 years old (and much used) from my father's old tool box.  It had a plain wooden handle and dull steel head.  It would have lasted another 50 years if I kept it when I moved. That's a tool.  I have had other hammers that were polished and had contoured handles that didn't do the job as well.  Those were products.  Marketing, packaging, appearance have nothing to do with efficacy.  Give me a good tool any day.  That's hitting the nail on the head.


Speaking of weapons...

Years ago I used to compete regularly at the annual UC Berkeley Chinese Martial Arts tournament, and a couple more in the San Francisco Bay Area.  This is a forms competition tournament, with the bulk of competitors in the Modern Wushu categories, but also with categories for Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, which is where I would compete.  

Even in the Traditional formats, most of the folks were using cheap, light-weight Modern Wushu weapon props, and not real weapons.  But not me.  I would come in with my dao that had a thick blade like a meat cleaver, and my staff, thick stiff wax wood, not the thin whippy stuff.  

We had to show the weapon to the judges before our demonstration, while telling them what form we would do.  I handed over my dao, and told them my form.  One judge said “you are doing Fei Hok Dao (Flying Crane Broadsword) with THIS dao?  I know that form.  I want to see this...”

Later, I handed over my staff for inspection.  Another judge said, “you have some NICE weapons...”

The judges for the traditional format were usually the same group of fellows each year, well respected Sifu from the Chinese Martial Arts community, trained under famous Sifu like Wong, Jack Man and Quentin Fong (whose student I was later able to become).  They would remember me from year-to-year and they definitely respected the weaponry.  I was able to score as “Overall Champion” for the traditional competitions, a couple of times.  

Anyways, I know what you mean when you talk about the weapons.  And the people who know better, they do respect quality over fluff.  But of course, not everybody knows better.


----------



## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> Good that you checked them out, and now you can make an informed decision.
> 
> Regarding the excessive focus on the kata minutia.  In my opinion, a lot of people put an inappropriate focus on what they feel kata should be, which in my opinion it should not.
> 
> I think kata for many people becomes something of a product.  It is the representation of the results of their martial training: to do the kata, for the approval of viewers. That becomes their karate or kung fu or tae kwon do or whatever.  Kata as a product, done with “perfection”.
> 
> This is my opinion, but I offer it as a point of view that I feel can be a healthier way of looking at it.  For me, there is no such thing as perfection, in kata and forms.  This is because kata is not a product, it isn’t to be done for the satisfaction of an audience.  It is not performance art.  It is also never “finished”.  It is not something to be put on a shelf and pointed to as perfection.
> 
> Kata/forms are simply a tool, used to train and drill and develop your skill.  Kata is to be done, over and over.  The details matter, but they matter in that they help you refine your technique and your skills, which is a process that never ends.  Is your kata good?  Well it is as long as you keep doing it.  In the same way that hitting a heavy bag is good, as long as you keep hitting it with regularity.  Hitting the heavy bag helps you develop certain skills.  If you fall out of the habit of hitting the heavy bag, then those skills begin to deteriorate.  So you keep at it, knowing that there is always room for improvement.  The practice itself is what is important, not searching for some aspect of the practice to be a product.  The true product of training is more nebulous: it is one’s skill, which is not just hitting the heavy bag, nor is it doing kata.  The heavy bag and Kata are just two ways of helping you develop your skill.
> 
> The practice of kata should be viewed in the same way as the practice of hitting the heavy bag.  Keep doing it, to improve your skill.  Just keep doing it.  But don’t do it to satisfy an audience.  And if the teacher, as audience, has critique, it needs to be for the purpose of improving technique, and not for improving performance.  A million micro-corrections don’t help technique when dumped on you all at once.  To me, that feels like kata as performance art.
> 
> I hope I am conveying my thoughts in a clear way, and I hope this perspective can be helpful in your training.


Appreciate those reflections, and that's really insightful, thank you. What you say makes perfect sense, and I love that corollary between treating it as a tool for continual training rather than some end product.





isshinryuronin said:


> It's a shame that kata has in many cases  deteriorated into performance art, rather than a means of perfecting fighting technique.  It was hard for an Okinawan kata to do well in open tournaments with Japanese judges as they favored deep, low, stances and extended thrusting punches, things not often found in a number of Okinawan styles.  But while not as visually appealing, they were much more illustrative of effective and practical combat.  So not matter how well it was performed, it scored low.  The same for Korean judges who tended to favor seeing high spinning kicks.
> 
> I know this from experience.  When talking about visual art, it's all about the eye of the beholder.
> 
> "Perfection" depends on your definition.  Is it executing a visually appealing form with well defined extended lines (as looked for in gymnastic or diving competitions) or properly executing a technique with shorter, more subtle (hard to discern the application if the judge or spectator is not familiar with it) moves that are usable in a realistic fluid fight?
> 
> Beyond this, though, are weapons competitions where scoring is based on how high you can throw the weapon up in air and how many times you can spin around before you catch it.  This abandons all pretense of being actual martial arts as it has no relationship to fighting technique (unless you're trying to kill a flock of birds).
> 
> I like Crane's terms of "product" and "tool".  I had a hammer 50 years old (and much used) from my father's old tool box.  It had a plain wooden handle and dull steel head.  It would have lasted another 50 years if I kept it when I moved. That's a tool.  I have had other hammers that were polished and had contoured handles that didn't do the job as well.  Those were products.  Marketing, packaging, appearance have nothing to do with efficacy.  Give me a good tool any day.  That's hitting the nail on the head.


Yeah for sure!

That's the thing, it seems for some of those corrections he makes that it is for practical purposes, but it's so hard finding that line between wanting something to look perfect, and whether that tiny tiny angle change is actually meaningful.

Alot of corrections I saw him make did certainly make sense, but others were just nitpicking and it seemed more surface appearance than anything.

To me it's about understanding and expressing the principles behind it.

AND also working within one's particular body's anatomy and shape rather than trying to conform it to an idea. When I was in zenkutsu dachi (forward long stance), the senior grade said to make sure my front foot was facing straight forward. Now I naturally am duck-footed (toes face outwards), and for me to force my feet inwards excessively risks and makes it more likely that my knee caves in. My body isn't designed that way. In the stance, my foot is still facing forwards, but the outer edge isn't fully parallel to the direction I'm going.

Still wanted it facing forward and tried to explain why, saying it's more stable or something. Well I won't be very stable if my knee caves in now will I!

But even so, the method of teaching is something I'm just not really keen on, as it feels so excessive... and the students just all didn't seem to look forward to doing their kata, almost like they were expecting the strap...

He even said to the young girl after she did her kata, that there are kata performances that you will pass your grading with and there are kata that wow me, that (what she just did) was just one that would get you a pass. Just feel that didn't need to be said at all...


----------



## _Simon_

Hey don't know if anyone has seen this movie, but it reminds me of this scene in the movie Whiplash.

Obviously, obviously NOT to this extreme, but the teaching style matters...


----------



## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> Speaking of weapons...
> 
> Years ago I used to compete regularly at the annual UC Berkeley Chinese Martial Arts tournament, and a couple more in the San Francisco Bay Area.  This is a forms competition tournament, with the bulk of competitors in the Modern Wushu categories, but also with categories for Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, which is where I would compete.
> 
> Even in the Traditional formats, most of the folks were using cheap, light-weight Modern Wushu weapon props, and not real weapons.  But not me.  I would come in with my dao that had a thick blade like a meat cleaver, and my staff, thick stiff wax wood, not the thin whippy stuff.
> 
> We had to show the weapon to the judges before our demonstration, while telling them what form we would do.  I handed over my dao, and told them my form.  One judge said “you are doing Fei Hok Dao (Flying Crane Broadsword) with THIS dao?  I know that form.  I want to see this...”
> 
> Later, I handed over my staff for inspection.  Another judge said, “you have some NICE weapons...”
> 
> The judges for the traditional format were usually the same group of fellows each year, well respected Sifu from the Chinese Martial Arts community, trained under famous Sifu like Wong, Jack Man and Quentin Fong (whose student I was later able to become).  They would remember me from year-to-year and they definitely respected the weaponry.  I was able to score as “Overall Champion” for the traditional competitions, a couple of times.
> 
> Anyways, I know what you mean when you talk about the weapons.  And the people who know better, they do respect quality over fluff.  But of course, not everybody knows better.


Thats awesome, great illustration of quality over "flashy-wow-factor" too


----------



## _Simon_

That being said, perhaps it's more appropriate for me to say it's maybe not the best approach for me. I can't really say it's bad/wrong, but maybe just not suited for me. It may be what some people are after, I don't think it's for me.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

_Simon_ said:


> ..... okay, more definitely came to light in last night's class. I truly did not enjoy the class, and was a bit taken aback.
> 
> @Monkey Turned Wolf and @WaterGal your observations about the incessant corrections and also grade level expectations were spot on. Last night was next level...
> 
> Anyway, started the class, worked on very basic stuff again, tsuki, jodan uke. Had a senior student paired with me to watch my kata. Did Taikyoku kata which I'm well versed in, but they do it quite differently.
> 
> So after almost every movement I got corrections, which was fine I just rolled with them, and tried my best to correct them, which I managed to. The reasoning behind why some techniques are done the way they're done is a little weird (jodan uke being done with the arm reeeeally close to the body and face) and I don't necessarily agree, but I went along with it. He was very much modelling that same method of scrutiny as the main instructor.
> 
> Then we all spread out and the instructor got the senior grades to one by one perform a kata to demonstrate. Here's where I was absolutely gobsmacked...
> 
> A brown belt young girl was up first doing Seiunchin, did the kata which looked pretty good, and straight after he went through the 4 million things she did wrong. She looked rather dejected, and she went through it again but this time he corrected as she went. Every. Little. Thing.
> 
> Next up was actually a 1st kyu, who is actually going for his Shodan next week. He actually chose a much lower grade kata Saifa, which I believe is required for 5th kyu. I thought oh this'll be great to watch! I am not joking when I say the instructor stopped him after EVERY move, and saying how wrong it was (sometimes in a bit of a snide fashion), and doing the incredibly, incredibly anal corrections.
> 
> If he's going for Shodan next week, and he's getting this much correction on a 5th kyu kata..... how much would that dash his confidence? And why is the kata still not up to scratch I wonder?
> 
> All the time on the sideline I observed very carefully, not only the instructor, but I looked at the student's faces, and oh man they just looked so dejected and dispirited... it was really sad. Also DURING the kata you could see them constantly darting their eyes towards the instructor, almost making sure they were impressing him and getting approval. It was a really bizarre scene, and I scanned the other students watching to see their reaction but they're probably just so used to it and think it's common.
> 
> It's interesting that that approach is believed to help students most, whereas I can't possibly see how you could learn in that environment. Not only the absolute overload of information, absolute beyond perfectionism (which ultimately I feel is missing the point in terms of understanding and applying the principles behind movements rather than getting that 2° angle change), and also the student's doubt and confidence level... I'm by no means a fan of excessive praise, but come on...
> 
> I even made a point afterwards to go up to some of them and say their kata was awesome which I really did feel, and they all dipped their heads shaking it saying "nah nah nah it wasn't".
> 
> AGAIN at the end of the class, he then mentioned to the class that he's had black belts come and say he's too fussy with kata. And he said that's how they were with him in Japan, and he said that to them, and they said yes we are, if people think they're too fussy let them leave, we won't change that.
> 
> And even though it teaches the importance of relaxation, I don't see how how you possibly remain relaxed internally with that level of scrutiny. I know that knowing myself, and my excessive perfectionism at times, this can't be healthy for me.
> 
> So, could I learn alot being here? Yes, definitely could. Could I see myself enjoying it long term? ..... I just don't think so.
> 
> So I'll do the two classes next week but I have a few places in mind that I'll try next year. It's been quite an eye opening journey thus far....


While I'm obviously not happy you weren't able to find a good fit, I'm definitely glad that you realized how this school is early on. Keep on trucking!


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> That being said, perhaps it's more appropriate for me to say it's maybe not the best approach for me. I can't really say it's bad/wrong, but maybe just not suited for me. It may be what some people are after, I don't think it's for me.


Hey Simon,

Too bad that this place is not working out.   From your account, it does seem to be a difficult learning environment.   At the end of the day, you want to be pouring your time and energy into something that will make you better but not at the expense of your happiness.   The road may be long and winding but you will get to where you want to go if you eventually keep looking.   Good luck.


----------



## _Simon_

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> While I'm obviously not happy you weren't able to find a good fit, I'm definitely glad that you realized how this school is early on. Keep on trucking!



Thanks buddy, and I'm really glad you pointed out those things that seemed off, really appreciate that.



Yokozuna514 said:


> Hey Simon,
> 
> Too bad that this place is not working out.   From your account, it does seem to be a difficult learning environment.   At the end of the day, you want to be pouring your time and energy into something that will make you better but not at the expense of your happiness.   The road may be long and winding but you will get to where you want to go if you eventually keep looking.   Good luck.



Osu thanks heaps, I know if I take my time and trust my gut it'll be worth it.

Everyone's support has been greatly appreciated so you all know *bows*


----------



## _Simon_

Another rather strange class tonight...

I got there an hour late as I thought class at this other dojo was at 7pm. Jumped into line and they were doing basics, and the main instructor came up and just started chatting to me, for quite awhile actually... I was already late so thought it'd probably be much better for me to train haha, but he just kept going... about rather strange things, like again why they don't spar (I didn't bring it up), saying the blackbelts don't really even wanna spar anyway, there were just too many injuries and you can't train if you're injured.... and also recounting again why he's so fussy and precise as when he went to Japan that's how they trained etc etc.

Tried to pry a little as to how people kept getting injured and he said something like people would poke eyes etc and no control, people can get fingers caught in the others' gis and dislocate them (???) ... I even said well that's probably the best platform to actually train your timing and control... not in a snarky way but just casually said it..

The next bit he said............. I truly, truly had to hold back from either laughing or my jaw hitting the floor.... he said if you train kata and really imagine the bunkai, you don't need to spar. I was stunned..... I just didn't know what to say to that...


Then broke off into little groups and worked on kata. Learned Geki-ha which is fascinating... like an amalgamation of Gekisai katas..

It's a bit bizarre as alot of the guys there I meet keep saying that he's very very precise and fussy, and saying how they get it right here so you know you earn your belts, unlike those bigger clubs that just give them out... Felt like at every opportunity they were trying to validate what they do, and how it's good that they're like that. It's interesting that the idea of being that fussy about small things means you're getting quality... meanwhile you're excessively focusing on that element and there's no conditioning, bagwork, padwork, sparring, or impact of any kind, or anything else that Goju is renowned for.. and calling it 'authentic' because of that... that sort of self-delusion is really unfortunate, and it's all reinforced in the smallness of the club, as they don't have anything to do with other clubs or martial artists (and often it seems are rather disparaging to any other style...).

Feels so dogmatic, and you can see how martial arts can become so politicised and almost like religious fundamentalist... honing in on one certain aspect and disregarding the rest in pure assumption...

I honestly do like the real focus on body structure and biomechanics, and there is a bit I do like here and have learned from, but I'm getting more and more glimpses of the unpleasant side of that.

And I'm just sharing all this not to stylebash or name and shame, but hoping it's of help to others in a similar position and shed a bit of a light as to how some clubs operate, what to look for etc... I hope it's helpful.

Again after training I hadn't really felt like I'd trained (not that every session has to be super physical or always a sweat session, but I've found every time that I hadn't really done much), so I got home at 9:30pm and trained all the Gekisai-related katas I knew twice over.

Gekisai Dai
Gekisai Sho
Gekisai Ichi
Gekisai Ni
Geki-ha


----------



## _Simon_

Didn't end up going to the last class tonight. Ah wellz!

Instead I'm doing the Karate X-mas Bootcamp on the Karate@Home page. 7 online sessions with amazing Shotokan instructors from all over the world, over 4 days, plus I had another one booked I'll squeeze in there too haha.

I did one of these earlier in the year and loved it. It's a nice challenge to set and go through. Exhausted by the end of it, but you learn alot .

Until next year it'll be home training until dojos open up again for the year, of which I have a few ideas. Here's to that!


----------



## _Simon_

Hmm, just discovered that the first Goju style I trialled out was actually Goju Kai! I had no idea, as it doesn't say that in the info, but the lineage I read of is definitely through Yamaguchi Sensei.

It explains a bit actually, especially those 5 different Taikyoku kata they train, and unsure whether the heavy fitness/exercise focus is just a their dojo thing or Goju Kai related...

The most recent one I trialled was definitely more akin to traditional Goju ryu, albeit leaving out alot of traditional elements...

Well, there you go!


----------



## _Simon_

Okay, it is time! After much much deliberation haha, I contacted a Shotokan dojo that sounds really cool, and checking out their class tomorrow, just watching. Super nervous but happy I'm delving back in, a big step for me at the moment believe it or not..


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Okay, it is time! After much much deliberation haha, I contacted a Shotokan dojo that sounds really cool, and checking out their class tomorrow, just watching. Super nervous but happy I'm delving back in, a big step for me at the moment believe it or not..


Best of luck!


----------



## _Simon_

Went well! The instructor was really friendly and welcoming, seemed like a really nice guy, bit of a smaller class and mostly kids/teens with only one adult. I liked certain things he emphasised. It was Shotokan but sort of a variation on it.

The instructor had great technique, movement and power, wasn't overly impressed with some of the technique of students (one black belt student there), but some moved okay and had good spirit. It's really hard to gauge, as there could be heaps of reasons under the surface as to that, but even some basic stuff with the higher grades didn't appear to be there. Some cool drills they did though!

Not sure if it's one I'll stay with but I thought I'd give a trial class a go, simply because I liked the instructor


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Went well! The instructor was really friendly and welcoming, seemed like a really nice guy, bit of a smaller class and mostly kids/teens with only one adult. I liked certain things he emphasised. It was Shotokan but sort of a variation on it.
> 
> The instructor had great technique, movement and power, wasn't overly impressed with some of the technique of students (one black belt student there), but some moved okay and had good spirit. It's really hard to gauge, as there could be heaps of reasons under the surface as to that, but even some basic stuff with the higher grades didn't appear to be there. Some cool drills they did though!
> 
> Not sure if it's one I'll stay with but I thought I'd give a trial class a go, simply because I liked the instructor


Keep the spirit. Gotta start somewhere, right?


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Went well! The instructor was really friendly and welcoming, seemed like a really nice guy, bit of a smaller class and mostly kids/teens with only one adult. I liked certain things he emphasised. It was Shotokan but sort of a variation on it.
> 
> The instructor had great technique, movement and power, wasn't overly impressed with some of the technique of students (one black belt student there), but some moved okay and had good spirit. It's really hard to gauge, as there could be heaps of reasons under the surface as to that, but even some basic stuff with the higher grades didn't appear to be there. Some cool drills they did though!
> 
> Not sure if it's one I'll stay with but I thought I'd give a trial class a go, simply because I liked the instructor


Good time to look for a new place !   You are bound to find it with that kind of determination.


----------



## _Simon_

Thanks guys, yeah I'm persevering, and determined to not just settle. But a fine line with that, and in not being TOO picky and fixate too much on things I don't necessarily like.


----------



## _Simon_

Finally had my trial class at this place this morning!

I really enjoyed it! I like the instructor, and even though I'd sort of written off Shotokan as a path for me, this definitely brought it back as an option.

We warmed up with a combination, adding on 2x techniques as we went: jab, cross, hook, uppercut, round elbow, rising elbow, front knee, back knee, gyaku tsuki, then we did generic warmup after.

Next we worked on stepping back and gedan barai, but I really love that he emphasised and focused on getting and feeling that compression/expansion within the body! Not many places I've been to focus on that, so we did a little exercise where we stand and push arms out, expaaand... and bring all in rapidly and compress.

I really geek out over this stuff haha, all the developing a body intelligence and feeling of connection. And he admits he's a bit of a karate nerd haha (not all instructors are as crazy about it, even though they may teach it  ).

Worked on choku tsuki: focusing on hip launching then snapping back (aka vibration), then on hikite.

Did katas: Heian nidan, Heian sandan, Heian yondan. They seem to work a bit on kata bunkai and application too, which I'm not too fussed about, but can be rare for some Shotokan places.

Also transitioning from kiba dachi (horse riding stance) to kokutsu dachi (back stance). I really appreciated that he said that it's okay to have toes facing a bit out in kiba dachi, he doesn't seem a really rigid sort, and said it's probably better for you to have your toes out a little in that stance. My feet do not like the facing forwards so I was relieved. Some places are very rigid with certain techniques/stances.

After class he was more than happy to chat and I love hearing about people's training history, gradings etc. I asked him about the sparring that they do, and they focus on two types, so they start with teaching point sparring for beginners (to basically teach control, movement, distance, technique etc), then progress to what he calls dojo sparring, which is a bit harder, bit more contact, but always respectful and never excessive.

I quite like that approach, even though they are different styles, they each teach something valuable. They do do tournaments as well, but only for those interested.

One of my only concerns is the lack of adults in class. There was one 40 year old lady, a younger maybe 16 year old, the black belt was maybe 17/18, and also had two younger kids in class. I never was a fan of training kids and adults together.. They do have a separate kids class before the adults, but these ones stuck around. I just would like adults to train and spar with etc, and it can change the dynamics of a class when the kids are stuffing around and the instructor has to work with and have a word to them etc. But I don't feel he had to oversimplify certain aspects to us because of the kids which is good, still taught that compression/expansion stuff, but didn't expect the kids to fully grasp it.

The class during the week is a mixed age class, so am a little uncertain, but we'll see.

Will keep this place in mind as I explore further


----------



## mrt2

_Simon_ said:


> Finally had my trial class at this place this morning!
> 
> I really enjoyed it! I like the instructor, and even though I'd sort of written off Shotokan as a path for me, this definitely brought it back as an option.
> 
> We warmed up with a combination, adding on 2x techniques as we went: jab, cross, hook, uppercut, round elbow, rising elbow, front knee, back knee, gyaku tsuki, then we did generic warmup after.
> 
> Next we worked on stepping back and gedan barai, but I really love that he emphasised and focused on getting and feeling that compression/expansion within the body! Not many places I've been to focus on that, so we did a little exercise where we stand and push arms out, expaaand... and bring all in rapidly and compress.
> 
> I really geek out over this stuff haha, all the developing a body intelligence and feeling of connection. And he admits he's a bit of a karate nerd haha (not all instructors are as crazy about it, even though they may teach it  ).
> 
> Worked on choku tsuki: focusing on hip launching then snapping back (aka vibration), then on hikite.
> 
> Did katas: Heian nidan, Heian sandan, Heian yondan. They seem to work a bit on kata bunkai and application too, which I'm not too fussed about, but can be rare for some Shotokan places.
> 
> Also transitioning from kiba dachi (horse riding stance) to kokutsu dachi (back stance). I really appreciated that he said that it's okay to have toes facing a bit out in kiba dachi, he doesn't seem a really rigid sort, and said it's probably better for you to have your toes out a little in that stance. My feet do not like the facing forwards so I was relieved. Some places are very rigid with certain techniques/stances.
> 
> After class he was more than happy to chat and I love hearing about people's training history, gradings etc. I asked him about the sparring that they do, and they focus on two types, so they start with teaching point sparring for beginners (to basically teach control, movement, distance, technique etc), then progress to what he calls dojo sparring, which is a bit harder, bit more contact, but always respectful and never excessive.
> 
> I quite like that approach, even though they are different styles, they each teach something valuable. They do do tournaments as well, but only for those interested.
> 
> *One of my only concerns is the lack of adults in class. There was one 40 year old lady, a younger maybe 16 year old, the black belt was maybe 17/18, and also had two younger kids in class. I never was a fan of training kids and adults together.. They do have a separate kids class before the adults, but these ones stuck around. I just would like adults to train and spar with etc, and it can change the dynamics of a class when the kids are stuffing around and the instructor has to work with and have a word to them etc. *But I don't feel he had to oversimplify certain aspects to us because of the kids which is good, still taught that compression/expansion stuff, but didn't expect the kids to fully grasp it.
> 
> The class during the week is a mixed age class, so am a little uncertain, but we'll see.
> 
> Will keep this place in mind as I explore further


I completely agree with this.  When I first trained martial arts in high school, there was a pretty strict rule about kids younger than 15 training with adults.  I managed to slip in as a big 14 year old, but there were absolutely no children.  These days, because there so many children who train martial arts, they have to allow child black belts to mix in with the adults.  Frankly, I don't love it.


----------



## _Simon_

Well I contacted a Goju ryu dojo recently, watched a class the other day, and tonight had a trial! It was..... an odd experience. 

Got there and the main instructor said hi, nothing really else at all to me for the rest of the class. Started off with a warmup, and it was really good extensive warmup. Did quite a bit of padwork, each student choosing a different combo, but we received zero instructions, was very strange everyone just quiet while waiting for the person to finish their turn with the drill.. 

Not to say it should be all full conversations, but felt like a warehouse or conveyor belt system.. they do alot of pretty hard fitness training, I don't mind a bit of it in healthy doses but I'm certainly not looking for that specifically. Was almost like, just keep quiet, do the drill. The black belt holding the pad for me wasn't holding it properly at all either.. I should have said something but didn't want to cause a fuss. 

Then worked on some set partner drills, the fellow I was partnered with was very helpful teaching me. Then we lined up (strangely nothing was said that class was finished, everyone just quietly shuffled on over). And after the last bow the head instructor just said... "See you Wednesday." And everyone went to grab their stuff quietly. 

It's hard to explain... but it all felt very cold, sterile... I tend to watch the instructor closely, how they relate to the students, how the students relate to them and each other etc.. was just an odd, clinical vibe. Not bad, apart from not much direction or guidance (even while some student's technique was clearly really off). Of course we're there to train, but it was a strange vibe all round that I got. Also the class was another mix of kids and adults together, not really a fan of that..

In other words, it wasn't a love connection. I'll still go along to my other trial class on Wednesday just in case something changes, you never know, but there ya go. I definitely keep an eye out and watch things in a casual covert way, and it was just not my sorta atmosphere. Proud that I went though.


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Well I contacted a Goju ryu dojo recently, watched a class the other day, and tonight had a trial! It was..... an odd experience.
> 
> Got there and the main instructor said hi, nothing really else at all to me for the rest of the class. Started off with a warmup, and it was really good extensive warmup. Did quite a bit of padwork, each student choosing a different combo, but we received zero instructions, was very strange everyone just quiet while waiting for the person to finish their turn with the drill..
> 
> Not to say it should be all full conversations, but felt like a warehouse or conveyor belt system.. they do alot of pretty hard fitness training, I don't mind a bit of it in healthy doses but I'm certainly not looking for that specifically. Was almost like, just keep quiet, do the drill. The black belt holding the pad for me wasn't holding it properly at all either.. I should have said something but didn't want to cause a fuss.
> 
> Then worked on some set partner drills, the fellow I was partnered with was very helpful teaching me. Then we lined up (strangely nothing was said that class was finished, everyone just quietly shuffled on over). And after the last bow the head instructor just said... "See you Wednesday." And everyone went to grab their stuff quietly.
> 
> It's hard to explain... but it all felt very cold, sterile... I tend to watch the instructor closely, how they relate to the students, how the students relate to them and each other etc.. was just an odd, clinical vibe. Not bad, apart from not much direction or guidance (even while some student's technique was clearly really off). Of course we're there to train, but it was a strange vibe all round that I got. Also the class was another mix of kids and adults together, not really a fan of that..
> 
> In other words, it wasn't a love connection. I'll still go along to my other trial class on Wednesday just in case something changes, you never know, but there ya go. I definitely keep an eye out and watch things in a casual covert way, and it was just not my sorta atmosphere. Proud that I went though.


Yeah, I would not be down with that either.


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Well I contacted a Goju ryu dojo recently, watched a class the other day, and tonight had a trial! It was..... an odd experience.
> 
> Got there and the main instructor said hi, nothing really else at all to me for the rest of the class. Started off with a warmup, and it was really good extensive warmup. Did quite a bit of padwork, each student choosing a different combo, but we received zero instructions, was very strange everyone just quiet while waiting for the person to finish their turn with the drill..
> 
> Not to say it should be all full conversations, but felt like a warehouse or conveyor belt system.. they do alot of pretty hard fitness training, I don't mind a bit of it in healthy doses but I'm certainly not looking for that specifically. Was almost like, just keep quiet, do the drill. The black belt holding the pad for me wasn't holding it properly at all either.. I should have said something but didn't want to cause a fuss.
> 
> Then worked on some set partner drills, the fellow I was partnered with was very helpful teaching me. Then we lined up (strangely nothing was said that class was finished, everyone just quietly shuffled on over). And after the last bow the head instructor just said... "See you Wednesday." And everyone went to grab their stuff quietly.
> 
> It's hard to explain... but it all felt very cold, sterile... I tend to watch the instructor closely, how they relate to the students, how the students relate to them and each other etc.. was just an odd, clinical vibe. Not bad, apart from not much direction or guidance (even while some student's technique was clearly really off). Of course we're there to train, but it was a strange vibe all round that I got. Also the class was another mix of kids and adults together, not really a fan of that..
> 
> In other words, it wasn't a love connection. I'll still go along to my other trial class on Wednesday just in case something changes, you never know, but there ya go. I definitely keep an eye out and watch things in a casual covert way, and it was just not my sorta atmosphere. Proud that I went though.


That's too bad, Simon.  Having walked into a few different places over the years, MA classes vary quite a bit and take on the personality of the instructor.   Hopefully the next class will give you a better idea of what the school is really like.


----------



## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> Yeah, I would not be down with that either.



Yeah it was an odd atmosphere that was set in general... I'm definitely seeing it's not all about just the style you pick.



Yokozuna514 said:


> That's too bad, Simon.  Having walked into a few different places over the years, MA classes vary quite a bit and take on the personality of the instructor.   Hopefully the next class will give you a better idea of what the school is really like.



Very true, the instructor definitely sets the tone huh... the place did tick some other 'practical' boxes though (it's quite cheap to train, also not as far location-wise as other places I have in mind).


----------



## Flying Crane

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah it was an odd atmosphere that was set in general... I'm definitely seeing it's not all about just the style you pick.
> 
> 
> 
> Very true, the instructor definitely sets the tone huh... the place did tick some other 'practical' boxes though (it's quite cheap to train, also not as far location-wise as other places I have in mind).


I’ve trained at and visited schools where I realized the instructor was impossible for me to work with.  It sounds like your experience in this case was a bit different from mine, but in the end it’s the same, it’s the wrong place for you.  This happens.  Recognize it and move on.  Don’t dwell on it.  Cross that one off your list.


----------



## _Simon_

Had the other trial class tonight, it was again pretty mixed.. but it was a mild improvement in some respects.

Head instructor took the class this time, we did a drill called 'dead man'.... it was pretty brutal haha.. like a ladder/pyramid with increasing reps to a peak and decreasing reps with different exercises, very hard work..

Then found a spot each and worked on kata, I knew the katas but it was interesting... he told us to keep relaxed, with nice flow etc, so we went through it, and he yelled out that that wasn't relaxed enough, and told us to do 5 runs up and back. Just not that big a fan of that approach, and doesn't make much sense to punish because we're not relaxing enough. Reminds me of the oldschool days I hear about, the instructor walking around whacking students with the shinai for not getting it right.

But after this I got a bit out of. One of the blackbelts worked with me on a particular kata, and the head instructor came over and spent a bit of time helping too. Found it very helpful, and all the technical corrections they made they gave really good reasons, and demonstrated the application too. So that was enjoyable. Had an actual chat after class too so that was nice. And also said that if ever I had any questions about what something is for etc to just ask, there are no stupid questions, so I found them very approachable in that respect.

I could see though over longterm that I would start dreading coming to training, just like with my old dojo, but glad I tried it out, and good to see I could still train at that intensity anyway.


----------



## _Simon_

Been awhile folks! Thought I'd provide an update!

It's yet again been a year like last year, and the lockdowns make it very difficult to contact and trial places, but definitely a time of patience. My online training with the Sunday Morning Keiko folks has continued and has been just beyond incredible. And they're offering much more in depth training weekly now, which I quickly jumped onto, and that has been the best. So very blessed that this has all unfolded.

I still plan to join a dojo, but the area I'm looking into is in an extended lockdown again so another wait. BUT in the meantime, one of the places on my list to check out is offering free live online classes. Contacted them and actually had a video chat with the head instructor. Really, really nice guy, and the style is Goju Kensha (Goju ryu with Shorin ryu and even internal kung fu influences). A style I've been researching alot and very interested in.

Obviously the online format is very limited, but thought I'd give it a go, and I can still gauge how he teaches, the sort of technique, the energy and vibe etc. Got a class this Saturday


----------



## angelariz

_Simon_ said:


> Okay... the time has come!
> 
> I'm finally (after much, much hesitation and deliberation haha..) enquiring about new styles, as I'm honestly just itching to get back into dojo training.. and feel mostly ready health-wise.
> 
> It's been an incredibly rough, painful, hellish and emotional 8 months or so.. and I still have a bit to go in terms of recovery, but I feel ready enough to try getting into training properly again. And it really marks a big step for me, as I definitely wasn't in this position a little while ago.
> 
> So the plan is to try a style for about a month or so to get the feel of it and see if it clicks with me. Very different to how I decided before, which was just training because I 'felt like I should', out of obligation almost. So suffice it to say, I'm very excited .
> 
> I've gotten a call back from a karate dojo just around the corner from me, I asked if i can sit in and watch and they said people tend to get more out of just giving it a go, so they invited me to train so looks like I'm training!
> 
> It sounds really awesome, it's a small dojo, and has gone through a few changes of style affiliation over time, and I think they operate more independently now, originally he trained in Kyokushin (and personally graded to Shodan under Sosai Oyama!), then Ashihara, Shintaiikudo, and taught in all of these, now with all his experience has organically sort of formed his own style, which incorporates all his previous styles plus including some Aikido principles as well (which he teaches as well).
> 
> Definitely sounds more up my alley, I'm really excited


I will train any system for 3 or 4 months and see if it fits me. If I had to choose between Goju and Shotokan, I'd pick Shotokan.
It is a hard style with lots of hard sparring.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

angelariz said:


> I will train any system for 3 or 4 months and see if it fits me. If I had to choose between Goju and Shotokan, I'd pick Shotokan.
> It is a hard style with lots of hard sparring.


That might be generally true (I don't know), but be wary of defining expectations of intensity by the style. In general, the intensity fluctuates more within a style than between relatively similar styles. I've had students who came from Shotokan who were only used to soft-tap kind of sparring (and some who were accustomed to quite hard contact)


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Been awhile folks! Thought I'd provide an update!
> 
> It's yet again been a year like last year, and the lockdowns make it very difficult to contact and trial places, but definitely a time of patience. My online training with the Sunday Morning Keiko folks has continued and has been just beyond incredible. And they're offering much more in depth training weekly now, which I quickly jumped onto, and that has been the best. So very blessed that this has all unfolded.
> 
> I still plan to join a dojo, but the area I'm looking into is in an extended lockdown again so another wait. BUT in the meantime, one of the places on my list to check out is offering free live online classes. Contacted them and actually had a video chat with the head instructor. Really, really nice guy, and the style is Goju Kensha (Goju ryu with Shorin ryu and even internal kung fu influences). A style I've been researching alot and very interested in.
> 
> Obviously the online format is very limited, but thought I'd give it a go, and I can still gauge how he teaches, the sort of technique, the energy and vibe etc. Got a class this Saturday


Good to hear you are still at it, Simon.   It certainly hasn't been an easy year for anyone so good on you for persisting and finding ways to train on your own.  Hopefully you will find a 'home' where you can train regularly with like minded folks.   

As strange as it sounds, the break has had a number of unforeseen benefits for me.   Number one, it gave my body a chance to heal properly  .   Secondly, I split my time doing fitness classes (first on zoom and then in person).   I had a group of people that I have been training and it has allowed us to explore a number of formats which has kept things moving forward and in the right direction.   I also decided to alter my diet a little and have lost about 25 lbs so that also has helped me set a new bar in the classes I teach at the dojo.  Still no contact but that is coming soon.  Matter of weeks now but I plan on ramping conditioning up slowly and keeping healthy.   Healthy is good.   In the fall, we begin gradings again for the kyu ranks.  I suppose Dan ranks will follow.

Stay at it and look forward to following your progress.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> Good to hear you are still at it, Simon.   It certainly hasn't been an easy year for anyone so good on you for persisting and finding ways to train on your own.  Hopefully you will find a 'home' where you can train regularly with like minded folks.
> 
> As strange as it sounds, the break has had a number of unforeseen benefits for me.   Number one, it gave my body a chance to heal properly  .   Secondly, I split my time doing fitness classes (first on zoom and then in person).   I had a group of people that I have been training and it has allowed us to explore a number of formats which has kept things moving forward and in the right direction.   I also decided to alter my diet a little and have lost about 25 lbs so that also has helped me set a new bar in the classes I teach at the dojo.  Still no contact but that is coming soon.  Matter of weeks now but I plan on ramping conditioning up slowly and keeping healthy.   Healthy is good.   In the fall, we begin gradings again for the kyu ranks.  I suppose Dan ranks will follow.
> 
> Stay at it and look forward to following your progress.


That's really fantastic to hear, what a nice plus to your journey . It's amazing how introducing new facets can have such a flow on effect. Keep at it brother.

And thanks so much, appreciate your thoughtful words as always, osu


----------



## angelariz

gpseymour said:


> That might be generally true (I don't know), but be wary of defining expectations of intensity by the style. In general, the intensity fluctuates more within a style than between relatively similar styles. I've had students who came from Shotokan who were only used to soft-tap kind of sparring (and some who were accustomed to quite hard contact)


A proper Shotokan school, from my experience does Kyukushin type fighting. If it doesn't, i wouldn't call it Shotokan.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

angelariz said:


> A proper Shotokan school, from my experience does Kyukushin type fighting. If it doesn't, i wouldn't call it Shotokan.


But they do, and belong to a Shotokan organization. So, apparently, it is Shotokan.


----------



## angelariz

gpseymour said:


> But they do, and belong to a Shotokan organization. So, apparently, it is



 👍


----------



## _Simon_

All going very well! We've actually been put back into lockdown and have been for a few weeks, and the guys have kept inviting me to train with them free of charge, so have been training in their online sessions which are twice a week. Yet another case of being blown away by the generosity of martial artists around.

Really enjoy the people, vibe, and the teacher has a really great energy and disposition. The style itself is fascinating, and we haven't gone too in depth with some of the particular subtleties of the style (sort of a bit hard to in the short sessions), but I think the sessions are mainly to keep people in some sort of training, fitness etc. But I'll definitely ask more questions. Thoroughly enjoying it all so far


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> All going very well! We've actually been put back into lockdown and have been for a few weeks, and the guys have kept inviting me to train with them free of charge, so have been training in their online sessions which are twice a week. Yet another case of being blown away by the generosity of martial artists around.
> 
> Really enjoy the people, vibe, and the teacher has a really great energy and disposition. The style itself is fascinating, and we haven't gone too in depth with some of the particular subtleties of the style (sort of a bit hard to in the short sessions), but I think the sessions are mainly to keep people in some sort of training, fitness etc. But I'll definitely ask more questions. Thoroughly enjoying it all so far


If I'd had any idea this pandemic would keep things messed up so long, I'd probably have tried to pick up a kata-oriented art at the beginning of it. I'd have all this time to just focus on the kata, and get into the sparring and other parts when we're able get back to regular classes. Hindsight...


----------



## Yokozuna514

gpseymour said:


> If I'd had any idea this pandemic would keep things messed up so long, I'd probably have tried to pick up a kata-oriented art at the beginning of it. I'd have all this time to just focus on the kata, and get into the sparring and other parts when we're able get back to regular classes. Hindsight...


Osu, doing something is often better than doing nothing.   Now with the restrictions lifting in our area, we are seeing people come back to the dojo after a year and half.  Some have been doing things to stay fit while others have been doing not much of anything.  The transition back is easier for the people that have been keeping up with karate (either zoom or in the park).   Not only has their kihon stayed reasonably sharp but they aren't spending all their energy remembering what we are doing .   It is going to take a while for us to get back up to speed for kumite but again that path is shorter for people that have been doing something.   Starting again after 18 months almost makes you feel like a white belt again but you are not and so the ego is going to take a backseat while you get yourself back up to speed.   

It's not to late to join something and even if it is kata based the work in kihon should help with body control.  Hopefully they have a good foundation in fitness as well so doing something is better than doing nothing at all.   Good luck.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Yokozuna514 said:


> Osu, doing something is often better than doing nothing.   Now with the restrictions lifting in our area, we are seeing people come back to the dojo after a year and half.  Some have been doing things to stay fit while others have been doing not much of anything.  The transition back is easier for the people that have been keeping up with karate (either zoom or in the park).   Not only has their kihon stayed reasonably sharp but they aren't spending all their energy remembering what we are doing .   It is going to take a while for us to get back up to speed for kumite but again that path is shorter for people that have been doing something.   Starting again after 18 months almost makes you feel like a white belt again but you are not and so the ego is going to take a backseat while you get yourself back up to speed.
> 
> It's not to late to join something and even if it is kata based the work in kihon should help with body control.  Hopefully they have a good foundation in fitness as well so doing something is better than doing nothing at all.   Good luck.


The dojo I was teaching at closed permanently after a few months of the pandemic - she just couldn't keep it open (it wasn't a money-maker, even at the best of times). I managed to keep myself active for a long time, teaching kata-only classes outdoors to the (eventually) 1 student who stayed the longest. Then that one finally left, too, when the school closed permanently.

Before this all started, I had my eye on a local Judo club, and was hoping a few  months ago I'd be able to consider that path again. But now that looks unlikely for quite some time, assuming that club is even around when this is all over.

But yeah, it's definitely not too late to find something. I need to take another look around. But my excuses are much better now - back to working, with some travel, so not as much free time to commit. I love a good excuse.


----------



## Yokozuna514

gpseymour said:


> The dojo I was teaching at closed permanently after a few months of the pandemic - she just couldn't keep it open (it wasn't a money-maker, even at the best of times). I managed to keep myself active for a long time, teaching kata-only classes outdoors to the (eventually) 1 student who stayed the longest. Then that one finally left, too, when the school closed permanently.
> 
> Before this all started, I had my eye on a local Judo club, and was hoping a few  months ago I'd be able to consider that path again. But now that looks unlikely for quite some time, assuming that club is even around when this is all over.
> 
> But yeah, it's definitely not too late to find something. I need to take another look around. But my excuses are much better now - back to working, with some travel, so not as much free time to commit. I love a good excuse.


Hahaha, she and you are not alone.  Hasn't been easy for many to keep their businesses going let alone their practice.    Even though things are opening up here and we are seeing more people return, we need to be careful we aren't giving the wrong appearance that we aren't 'playing by the new rules'.    We have to follow government regulations on the number of people that can train in our space at one time, check people for vaccinations and wear masks when we are in contact range.    I was part of a small group last night that started back to kumite (light contact).  We need to build up our conditioning again (ie:  deaden the nerves  ) before we can go harder.   Sparring in masks is not something I missed.   It's doable but I am looking forward to taking the mask off.  

Good luck in finding something that will start you back on your journey.   Again, something is better than nothing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Yokozuna514 said:


> Hahaha, she and you are not alone.  Hasn't been easy for many to keep their businesses going let alone their practice.    Even though things are opening up here and we are seeing more people return, we need to be careful we aren't giving the wrong appearance that we aren't 'playing by the new rules'.    We have to follow government regulations on the number of people that can train in our space at one time, check people for vaccinations and wear masks when we are in contact range.    I was part of a small group last night that started back to kumite (light contact).  We need to build up our conditioning again (ie:  deaden the nerves  ) before we can go harder.   Sparring in masks is not something I missed.   It's doable but I am looking forward to taking the mask off.
> 
> Good luck in finding something that will start you back on your journey.   Again, something is better than nothing.


Thanks! I'm looking forward to things opening back up (our area has pretty high infection rate right now) so I can go looking for a new place to teach, too. Trying to see the silver lining in this, that there may be a lot of folks looking for someplace to train at that time.


----------



## Buka

_Simon_ said:


> All going very well! We've actually been put back into lockdown and have been for a few weeks, and the guys have kept inviting me to train with them free of charge, so have been training in their online sessions which are twice a week. Yet another case of being blown away by the generosity of martial artists around.
> 
> Really enjoy the people, vibe, and the teacher has a really great energy and disposition. The style itself is fascinating, and we haven't gone too in depth with some of the particular subtleties of the style (sort of a bit hard to in the short sessions), but I think the sessions are mainly to keep people in some sort of training, fitness etc. But I'll definitely ask more questions. Thoroughly enjoying it all so far


That's awesome, Simon. Happy for you, bro.


----------



## Buka

gpseymour said:


> The dojo I was teaching at closed permanently after a few months of the pandemic - she just couldn't keep it open (it wasn't a money-maker, even at the best of times). I managed to keep myself active for a long time, teaching kata-only classes outdoors to the (eventually) 1 student who stayed the longest. Then that one finally left, too, when the school closed permanently.
> 
> Before this all started, I had my eye on a local Judo club, and was hoping a few  months ago I'd be able to consider that path again. But now that looks unlikely for quite some time, assuming that club is even around when this is all over.
> 
> But yeah, it's definitely not too late to find something. I need to take another look around. But my excuses are much better now - back to working, with some travel, so not as much free time to commit. I love a good excuse.


This is such a strange time. I think back and wonder what it would have been like had we had this pandemic when I first started training. I wonder if our dojo would have gone out of business - I think it would have. I wonder if I would have continued in Martial Arts.

My heart goes out to every dojo owner these days, big time. My heart goes out to every student in the arts. It must be so incredibly difficult for everyone.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> This is such a strange time. I think back and wonder what it would have been like had we had this pandemic when I first started training. I wonder if our dojo would have gone out of business - I think it would have. I wonder if I would have continued in Martial Arts.
> 
> My heart goes out to every dojo owner these days, big time. My heart goes out to every student in the arts. It must be so incredibly difficult for everyone.


I remember how easily I was derailed in the early days (I had a minor surgery behind one ear, and went back to training a year later). If this had happened back then, I'm certain it would have taken me years to get back to training, if I managed it at all.

I fear a lot of schools that were run for love (making little or no money) will be victims in this. Hopefully the folks making real money at it have set aside enough to manage to get back to it when it's safe.

I've always had this wish in the back of my mind that I could have started a school of my own. The past year, I've not wished that, at all.


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> I remember how easily I was derailed in the early days (I had a minor surgery behind one ear, and went back to training a year later). If this had happened back then, I'm certain it would have taken me years to get back to training, if I managed it at all.
> 
> I fear a lot of schools that were run for love (making little or no money) will be victims in this. Hopefully the folks making real money at it have set aside enough to manage to get back to it when it's safe.
> 
> I've always had this wish in the back of my mind that I could have started a school of my own. The past year, I've not wished that, at all.


I have roughly a 5 year bailout/loss column in my budget. I am currently well into year 2, more like 2-1/2.


----------



## _Simon_

So this dojo I've been training with for free in their online sessions has opened back up..... I'm heading up next week to train with them in person, will keep y'all posted, very excited


----------



## caped crusader

This thread reminds me of a Dojo I contacted some years back. They called it Zen karate if I remember correctly.
Was very expensive & they made it Sound like a new amazing style. After some careful questions I found out it was just shotokan with a Marketing ploy to make the Dojo Sound different.  A bit of music & Meditation...and basta ! It's Zen karate 😁 I am very suspicous of mish mash Dojos. Not saying all are bad as I'm sure some have good intentions. Just don't be in awe of everything.


----------



## _Simon_

caped crusader said:


> This thread reminds me of a Dojo I contacted some years back. They called it Zen karate if I remember correctly.
> Was very expensive & they made it Sound like a new amazing style. After some careful questions I found out it was just shotokan with a Marketing ploy to make the Dojo Sound different.  A bit of music & Meditation...and basta ! It's Zen karate 😁 I am very suspicous of mish mash Dojos. Not saying all are bad as I'm sure some have good intentions. Just don't be in awe of everything.


Ah yeah for sure haha. Yeah there are those out there that try to mystify their club a bit and glamourise it to sound spiritual and "special". Will keep that in mind. All through the thread as you'll see I've made sure to be very, very observant and aware of the club dynamics


----------



## caped crusader

_Simon_ said:


> Ah yeah for sure haha. Yeah there are those out there that try to mystify their club a bit and glamourise it to sound spiritual and "special". Will keep that in mind. All through the thread as you'll see I've made sure to be very, very observant and aware of the club dynamics


yeah i mean people will believe anything that sound spiritual or some kind of majestic ring to it. I mean just because a sensei is japanese does not mean he´s better than joe bloggs from your town.


----------



## _Simon_

Well... ! After leaving my previous style years ago and embarking on a search for something which resonated with me, lots of trialling out, getting disheartened... getting excited, getting disheartened again... I think I've finally found my place 

So it's a derivative style of Goju Ryu called Goju Kensha, founded by Tadahiko Ohtsuka Sensei, who trained Goju under Sosui Ichikawa Sensei. He also studied extensively internal Chinese MA systems and Shorin Ryu. This style is like a blend of these, and is definitely more about internal connection, fluidity and definitely "feel". Still a beautiful blend of hard and soft. We do heaps of kata application stuff which I wasn't ever really fussed about to be honest, but has been good exploring.

I looked for a few things... firstly a style that I'm really interested in, secondly and maybe more importantly an instructor that I really respect and connect with, and thirdly the club atmosphere, energy and culture of the dojo. This has everything I was after, but moreso it just feels right.

I'd been training for the last couple of months, and today after class I was called up to the front, and as a recognition of my previous experience and where he feels I currently sit I was awarded 3rd kyu.

I was truly blown away... so very honoured, but honestly I feel like I really don't deserve it haha. I'm struggling with that and told him that, yet whilst still truly honoured, grateful and blown away. He said he has been watching me very carefully over time, and ensures me my standard is recognised. Not a formal grading obviously (the next ones definitely will be), but a recognition and acknowledgement of what my current level definitely is. He was very reassuring and actually made alot of sense, and says we will refine things as we go but assured me my standard really sits there given my demonstrated experience and ability, and is a good place to start for me personally.

After much, much rumination on it today haha.. I can definitely see that I would sit around that rank more generically speaking. Just more specifically there are subtleties and nuances I will need to refine still. And I truly do 100% trust his wisdom and intuition if he feels that's about where I sit ranking-wise. Just I need to work out the struggle of accepting it in my own psyche haha... I don't know if anyone else has ever felt not worthy of a rank or had similar experience, feel free to comment! I don't focus on rank but just on learning and growing as a martial artist; this certainly just was a shock. Obviously differing opinions on this for sure, but I do understand it now, and there was no need to start from scratch and work my way up one grade at a time.

But I feel truly blessed that I've found this home, and other folks I train with too online who are like family. It's been a very long journey up to this point, but things are starting to make more sense  🙏❤


----------



## caped crusader

_Simon_ said:


> ensures me my standard is recognised.


if he thinks you deserve it then just be quite ! but seriously well done. would not worry as you wrote your next will be a formal grading.


----------



## _Simon_

caped crusader said:


> if he thinks you deserve it then just be quite ! but seriously well done. would not worry as you wrote your next will be a formal grading.


Thanks mate yeah I feel you're right haha.


----------



## caped crusader

_Simon_ said:


> Thanks mate yeah I feel you're right haha.


the only Grading that i saw that shocked me was a Blue belt to Purple belt one in Shotokan karate. two guys were up doing Kata side by side & one was clueless trying to copy the other guy who was "OK" but i would say a very low pass as well. They both passed to my surprise & disgust. I did not train there but was with a friend who did. 
It was no surprise for me to later find out they were mates with the two Dan grades sitting at the table. not sure if they made it to Dan grade or not later on. Of course that would have been Graded by others and not the local club.


----------



## isshinryuronin

_Simon_ said:


> I was awarded 3rd kyu.
> I was truly blown away... so very honoured, but honestly I feel like I really don't deserve it haha. I'm struggling with that


I posted a few months ago that the promotion that was most special to me was a surprise advancement from yellow w/stripe to blue, skipping a couple of ranks.  I was stoked.

As for not feeling you deserve your 3rd kyu, GOOD!  _Keep that feeling_. While others may have their ego stroked by such an advancement, you sound like the type who truly wants to be worthy of rank. This will give you the incentive to work harder to justify your sensei's confidence in you. Having this feeling is proof that your sensei was not wrong in promoting you. A student of _any_ rank should never feel they are good enough.


----------



## caped crusader

isshinryuronin said:


> I posted a few months ago that the promotion that was most special to me was a surprise advancement from yellow w/stripe to blue, skipping a couple of ranks.  I was stoked.
> 
> As for not feeling you deserve your 3rd kyu, GOOD!  _Keep that feeling_. While others may have their ego stroked by such an advancement, you sound like the type who truly wants to be worthy of rank. This will give you the incentive to work harder to justify your sensei's confidence in you. Having this feeling is proof that your sensei was not wrong in promoting you. A student of _any_ rank should never feel they are good enough.


Hey bro...can you promote me to Red Belt 10th Dan ?


----------



## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Well... ! After leaving my previous style years ago and embarking on a search for something which resonated with me, lots of trialling out, getting disheartened... getting excited, getting disheartened again... I think I've finally found my place
> 
> So it's a derivative style of Goju Ryu called Goju Kensha, founded by Tadahiko Ohtsuka Sensei, who trained Goju under Sosui Ichikawa Sensei. He also studied extensively internal Chinese MA systems and Shorin Ryu. This style is like a blend of these, and is definitely more about internal connection, fluidity and definitely "feel". Still a beautiful blend of hard and soft. We do heaps of kata application stuff which I wasn't ever really fussed about to be honest, but has been good exploring.
> 
> I looked for a few things... firstly a style that I'm really interested in, secondly and maybe more importantly an instructor that I really respect and connect with, and thirdly the club atmosphere, energy and culture of the dojo. This has everything I was after, but moreso it just feels right.
> 
> I'd been training for the last couple of months, and today after class I was called up to the front, and as a recognition of my previous experience and where he feels I currently sit I was awarded 3rd kyu.
> 
> I was truly blown away... so very honoured, but honestly I feel like I really don't deserve it haha. I'm struggling with that and told him that, yet whilst still truly honoured, grateful and blown away. He said he has been watching me very carefully over time, and ensures me my standard is recognised. Not a formal grading obviously (the next ones definitely will be), but a recognition and acknowledgement of what my current level definitely is. He was very reassuring and actually made alot of sense, and says we will refine things as we go but assured me my standard really sits there given my demonstrated experience and ability, and is a good place to start for me personally.
> 
> After much, much rumination on it today haha.. I can definitely see that I would sit around that rank more generically speaking. Just more specifically there are subtleties and nuances I will need to refine still. And I truly do 100% trust his wisdom and intuition if he feels that's about where I sit ranking-wise. Just I need to work out the struggle of accepting it in my own psyche haha... I don't know if anyone else has ever felt not worthy of a rank or had similar experience, feel free to comment! I don't focus on rank but just on learning and growing as a martial artist; this certainly just was a shock. Obviously differing opinions on this for sure, but I do understand it now, and there was no need to start from scratch and work my way up one grade at a time.
> 
> But I feel truly blessed that I've found this home, and other folks I train with too online who are like family. It's been a very long journey up to this point, but things are starting to make more sense  🙏❤


I have likely said this before on here but I never really gave a lot of thought to any of my ranks until the last ones. I guess I was caught up in training and competition to the point where the 'promotions' were just a formality. 
I had a Huge gap in between my last testing's and it was quite a struggle to get to a point where I would even accept the promotions. Enough so that it caused major friction with organization and my GM (about 2 years). 
My point is I had to get to the place where I could accept it emotionally, even though I knew I had already checked all the boxes long before. Because of my injuries and prior ability I was pretty hung up on my limitations so I had to get my head above my own personal clouds and see that there was a bigger picture. I had to trust my GM to see that, even when I didn't fully see it. 
It sounds to me like this is where you are at. You emphatically said you like your new instructor and clearly resonated your trust and faith in him/her. So step out in that trust and accept your rank and use it as it should be used. 
Kudos and congratulations for finding a home school. I know it has been a long process for you. Now strap that belt on and get ready for the next one!


----------



## _Simon_

isshinryuronin said:


> I posted a few months ago that the promotion that was most special to me was a surprise advancement from yellow w/stripe to blue, skipping a couple of ranks.  I was stoked.
> 
> As for not feeling you deserve your 3rd kyu, GOOD!  _Keep that feeling_. While others may have their ego stroked by such an advancement, you sound like the type who truly wants to be worthy of rank. This will give you the incentive to work harder to justify your sensei's confidence in you. Having this feeling is proof that your sensei was not wrong in promoting you. A student of _any_ rank should never feel they are good enough.


Thank you so very, very much. I totally 100% get what you mean, and I absolutely want to be worthy of the rank. It will be a great starting place, and even though I was prepared to go through the ranks, the earlier stuff is very very basic, so this makes sense. I know some instructors would have ulterior motives and try making more money off grading fees and belt fees. I asked my instructor what I owe him for the belt and he said it was a gift and was on him. That in itself was very special.

Again thank you, your post is very encouraging, and I'm glad you chimed in as I really respect your experience, insight and thoughts. Domo arigato gozaimasu 🙏


----------



## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> I have likely said this before on here but I never really gave a lot of thought to any of my ranks until the last ones. I guess I was caught up in training and competition to the point where the 'promotions' were just a formality.
> I had a Huge gap in between my last testing's and it was quite a struggle to get to a point where I would even accept the promotions. Enough so that it caused major friction with organization and my GM (about 2 years).
> My point is I had to get to the place where I could accept it emotionally, even though I knew I had already checked all the boxes long before. Because of my injuries and prior ability I was pretty hung up on my limitations so I had to get my head above my own personal clouds and see that there was a bigger picture. I had to trust my GM to see that, even when I didn't fully see it.
> It sounds to me like this is where you are at. You emphatically said you like your new instructor and clearly resonated your trust and faith in him/her. So step out in that trust and accept your rank and use it as it should be used.
> Kudos and congratulations for finding a home school. I know it has been a long process for you. Now strap that belt on and get ready for the next one!


Ah that's awesome... thank you so much, your insights are gold.

Yeah absolutely, very well said, especially about the bigger picture. And even though I gained 4th kyu rank before I left my old style, it's not like I just sat back in the few years until now. I trained my **** off haha; trained more than ever and was determined to let go of old ways of training and foundations and embrace new ones, learning softness, fluidity, not only from other instructors but through solo dedicated practice.

And not only that, but being forced to learn how to train differently through a chronic debilitating pain condition. There were many, MANY times I thought to myself that I just will never be able to train again with this... but wow it has been a long and arduous journey working through that up to where I am now.

Feeling all the emotions now haha and on that note... thank you 

Wow, Feb 2018 was the start of this thread, how much has happened in that time, I'm sure I'll update you all every now and then how things are going, but seems the "journey" whilst it is completed, has really just begun...


----------



## Yokozuna514

Congratulations Simon.   I understand how you feel.   Having followed your journey, I can see that you are not chasing belts and understand that the rank also comes with some responsibility that you want to feel you can uphold.   3rd kyu may very well be a good place for you to begin this part of your journey as you do have prior experience that is transferable to your new style and it would seem as if your form is good enough to be a decent example for the lower ranks.  Whatever you lack in style specific information you will more than likely make up with effort and study on your own time which has been pretty evident by the way you have been looking for a new second home.  

Good luck to you and looking forward to reading about your continued progress in your new style.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> Congratulations Simon.   I understand how you feel.   Having followed your journey, I can see that you are not chasing belts and understand that the rank also comes with some responsibility that you want to feel you can uphold.   3rd kyu may very well be a good place for you to begin this part of your journey as you do have prior experience that is transferable to your new style and it would seem as if your form is good enough to be a decent example for the lower ranks.  Whatever you lack in style specific information you will more than likely make up with effort and study on your own time which has been pretty evident by the way you have been looking for a new second home.
> 
> Good luck to you and looking forward to reading about your continued progress in your new style.


Yes absolutely, thank you very much!

That's a really good way of putting it, and for sure it is a certain responsibility that rank, maybe that's why it shocked me haha, but keen to diligently work on and iron out any kinks for sure.

Osu


----------



## _Simon_

Really loving training 

Wednesday class we got the mats out and spent some time working on ukemi, rolling and a variety of different break falls. So so handy to learn...

Advanced class (which i am now a part of) has been varied and we work alot on bunkai, but this time was really dedicated technical kata practice. Was really good, times when we practice on our own, and the instructors would go around and watch/help intermittently. Really value that, I find it's hard to practice it properly with someone constantly watching, but breaking it up into solo and more guided was wonderful.

This morning we did push hands exercises which I just LOVE and have always wanted to delve into, we'll be doing it more often 

And today's advanced class was working on nage waza, throwing techniques and takedowns. Something I am HORRENDOUS at haha, but hoping to get more comfortable at.

Also have dedicated sparring classes which I'll be attending next weekend's.

That's all


----------



## _Simon_

Also, I need to learn the art of "tapping out" haha. We were doing takedowns and joint locks etc, I think I waited too long until the pressure was on, but I'm learning to move "with" the lock more (in the direction it's applied) to avoid the pain and hyper extension or whatever, and tap as soon as it reaches that... place. New stuff for me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Also, I need to learn the art of "tapping out" haha. We were doing takedowns and joint locks etc, I think I waited too long until the pressure was on, but I'm learning to move "with" the lock more (in the direction it's applied) to avoid the pain and hyper extension or whatever, and tap as soon as it reaches that... place. New stuff for me.


This is one of the things that a lot of folks have to learn when they get into these types of locks. Once you know them well enough, you're able to tell they are about to work, just before they actually do, so you have that extra bit of time to get started on the tap-out. Also, some of what you're feeling now, you'll be less sensitive to. I think there's some toghening of some sort to the joint (not sure how better to describe it) and you gain some range of motion over time, so the lock-point is less absolute.


----------



## _Simon_

Gerry Seymour said:


> This is one of the things that a lot of folks have to learn when they get into these types of locks. Once you know them well enough, you're able to tell they are about to work, just before they actually do, so you have that extra bit of time to get started on the tap-out. Also, some of what you're feeling now, you'll be less sensitive to. I think there's some toghening of some sort to the joint (not sure how better to describe it) and you gain some range of motion over time, so the lock-point is less absolute.


Ah that's very helpful, thanks heaps


----------



## Kemposhot

_Simon_ said:


> Also, I need to learn the art of "tapping out" haha. We were doing takedowns and joint locks etc, I think I waited too long until the pressure was on, but I'm learning to move "with" the lock more (in the direction it's applied) to avoid the pain and hyper extension or whatever, and tap as soon as it reaches that... place. New stuff for me.


As mentioned above, this is definitely something you learn with time.  I think we all have stories of times we should have tapped sooner lol.


----------



## _Simon_

Today was awesome 

Did our normal class this morning followed by advanced class.

Then a bit of break before the sparring session, absolutely loved it . We actually started off with some push hands work in an attempt to actually get ourselves nice and loose and relaxed, as sparring can definitely get people all tense. Was such a nice way to start and a great baseline to go from. Did some different drills and techniques, then took it in turns watching and doing freesparring.

I made sure to keep good control as alot of them were still very new to sparring, and my instructor actually got me to share some techniques and knowledge I had of sparring as he knew that I've got quite some experience, which I was quite honoured by. I got great feedback from everyone and said they learned alot from me; was quite humbling!

Learned alot today, and the club really values everyone's input . I aaaaam tired now though haha.


----------



## _Simon_

_Simon_ said:


> Today was awesome
> 
> Did our normal class this morning followed by advanced class.
> 
> Then a bit of break before the sparring session, absolutely loved it . We actually started off with some push hands work in an attempt to actually get ourselves nice and loose and relaxed, as sparring can definitely get people all tense. Was such a nice way to start and a great baseline to go from. Did some different drills and techniques, then took it in turns watching and doing freesparring.
> 
> I made sure to keep good control as alot of them were still very new to sparring, and my instructor actually got me to share some techniques and knowledge I had of sparring as he knew that I've got quite some experience, which I was quite honoured by. I got great feedback from everyone and said they learned alot from me; was quite humbling!
> 
> Learned alot today, and the club really values everyone's input . I aaaaam tired now though haha.


Also just realised, I have not sparred in I'd say about 2 years or more (obviously with everything that's been happening), and it went really went... was so happy with how I sparred. I felt really relaxed, fast, able to see openings and counter well, and still able to be respectful, controlled and hopefully helpful to the others when we sparred. Amazing that it all came back to me still!


----------



## isshinryuronin

_Simon_ said:


> Also just realised, I have not sparred in I'd say about 2 years or more (obviously with everything that's been happening), and it went really went... was so happy with how I sparred. I felt really relaxed


I have found that coming back after a significant layoff, some part of your skill will often be improved.  This seems contrary to logic.  Maybe after going without practice you come back with basics more in mind, going a little slower and not going all out.  Whatever, you're more relaxed in your execution.

 Also, the time off may have allowed you to "forget" some things (mentally and physically), so you're more open to "new" ideas.  And maybe just time itself let some things/concepts coalesce and crystalize, like a wine in the cellar gets better with age.  Maybe you're just excited getting back into it.  It's hard to tell exactly why "the less you do, the better you get" upon return, but at times, true.  Just don't use this as an excuse for not working out!


----------



## dvcochran

isshinryuronin said:


> I have found that coming back after a significant layoff, some part of your skill will often be improved.  This seems contrary to logic.  Maybe after going without practice you come back with basics more in mind, going a little slower and not going all out.  Whatever, you're more relaxed in your execution.
> 
> Also, the time off may have allowed you to "forget" some things (mentally and physically), so you're more open to "new" ideas.  And maybe just time itself let some things/concepts coalesce and crystalize, like a wine in the cellar gets better with age.  Maybe you're just excited getting back into it.  It's hard to tell exactly why "the less you do, the better you get" upon return, but at times, true.  Just don't use this as an excuse for not working out!


Agree. 
Sometimes we just get in our own head and muck up  things like reaction time. 
Being off for a while can clear this out and let things freely flow. 
My sparring coach never let me full out spar the week before matches. He had a word for it (a psych term) but I forget what it is at the moment.


----------



## _Simon_

isshinryuronin said:


> I have found that coming back after a significant layoff, some part of your skill will often be improved.  This seems contrary to logic.  Maybe after going without practice you come back with basics more in mind, going a little slower and not going all out.  Whatever, you're more relaxed in your execution.
> 
> Also, the time off may have allowed you to "forget" some things (mentally and physically), so you're more open to "new" ideas.  And maybe just time itself let some things/concepts coalesce and crystalize, like a wine in the cellar gets better with age.  Maybe you're just excited getting back into it.  It's hard to tell exactly why "the less you do, the better you get" upon return, but at times, true.  Just don't use this as an excuse for not working out!


Geez I reckon you hit the nail on the head!

All those points I think are in play for sure! Honestly I've spent sooo much time with my online training (which has been alot of themes of natural movement, relaxation, groundedness and internal "feel" rather than perfect shape) and also incorporated alot of this into my solo training, and I swear it must have been engrained in me on some deep level. Natural movement actually, is the perfect descriptor. Sparring didn't feel forced, full of angst, control, but just a smooth natural flow. My energy didn't rise up into my upper body but I felt just so connected to the ground. So bizarre and so happy that I'm finally feeling that...

Very true also about forgetting things. It's been a very conscious process of letting go of old ways of moving, training, and living in general.

Appreciate those thoughts so much, thank you


----------



## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> Agree.
> Sometimes we just get in our own head and muck up  things like reaction time.
> Being off for a while can clear this out and let things freely flow.
> My sparring coach never let me full out spar the week before matches. He had a word for it (a psych term) but I forget what it is at the moment.


Absolutely! Time away from what at times felt like sparring to survive haha may have helped. It's also possible the relaxed push hands we did prior to sparring also facilitated this mindset!

Cheers for that


----------



## _Simon_

Missing the dojo! We start up again next week after a holiday break. Been training still alot during the holidays, but keen to get back


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Missing the dojo! We start up again next week after a holiday break. Been training still alot during the holidays, but keen to get back


Man, that's gotta feel good! I get ansty all the time. Once we have a reasonable gap in Covid waves, I need to get out looking for a new place.


----------



## dvcochran

Gerry Seymour said:


> Man, that's gotta feel good! I get ansty all the time. Once we have a reasonable gap in Covid waves, I need to get out looking for a new place.


Well FWIW it is official, at least in TN. I just saw on the local news that health officials here are now saying TN will never get to 0% safe for Covid.
'Covid' is officially the new word for the common 'cold'.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> Well FWIW it is official, at least in TN. I just saw on the local news that health officials here are now saying TN will never get to 0% safe for Covid.
> 'Covid' is officially the new word for the common 'cold'.


While Covid remains considerably more dangerous than the common cold in most cases, it is likely we will never be rid of it. But if we only have strains where they aren't particularly worrisome to the vaccinated, I'll likely get back to teaching, and will simply require vaccination. For me, strains like Omicron are problematic, in that they aren't much worry for me, directly, but since they infect even the vaccinated at troubling rates, I become a vector to my mom, who is on immunosuppressants. I'd have to cancel classes for a week or two before visiting her every time, with strains like that in the wild.


----------



## Flying Crane

Gerry Seymour said:


> While Covid remains considerably more dangerous than the common cold in most cases, it is likely we will never be rid of it. But if we only have strains where they aren't particularly worrisome to the vaccinated, I'll likely get back to teaching, and will simply require vaccination. For me, strains like Omicron are problematic, in that they aren't much worry for me, directly, but since they infect even the vaccinated at troubling rates, I become a vector to my mom, who is on immunosuppressants. I'd have to cancel classes for a week or two before visiting her every time, with strains like that in the wild.


These are the issues that people need to consider.  Unfortunately, many do not.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Flying Crane said:


> These are the issues that people need to consider.  Unfortunately, many do not.


I plan to put a sign on my front door, "Only fully vaccinated people are allowed to enter this door."


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I plan to put a sign on my front door, "Only fully vaccinated people are allowed to enter this door."


At present, I don't have a door, but that's the idea.


----------



## _Simon_

Been having quite a rough time of late... life stuff huh... but training always seems to help. And it's been wonderful being back at dojo training, have missed it. We've been having special sparring seminars/sessions too after the first class which are alot of fun.

And today we had a special guest visit us, a 7th Dan in Goju. Quite an honour to meet and chat with him, he graded to Shodan under the founder of our style too. And he said I have really good technique, so that's pretty cool!


----------



## isshinryuronin

I went on that "Journey To A New Style," but stayed within the same _ryu, _Isshinryu_.  _Sound confusing?  It's not.  I spent many years doing Isshinryu as it had commonly been done since the Marines brought it back from Okinawa - Basic block, punch and kick, with a few other strikes thrown in.  It closely resembled most of the karate in the USA in this respect.

What changed was learning how the Okinawans did it - Original style karate.  So now my Isshinryu incorporates the original core concepts and principles (such as _hikite, tuite, bunkai oyo_, simultaneous defense and offense, and other Okinawan ideas of karate.)

The way I do karate today is so different from 20, 30, 50 yrs. ago, it is as different as any two karate styles, even though I have remained in the same system.  I'm still doing the Isshinryu _system_, but in the Okinawan _style_.  It's more than just putting my personal touch to it, it's adopting what karate really was (to the best we can know) prior to WWII in Okinawa.  

A simple way to put it, is that instead of just reading the _Cliff Notes _version of karate, I'm reading the actual novel.  It contains enough rich and nuanced material to keep me busy for the next 20 years and really is a "journey to a new style."


----------



## _Simon_

isshinryuronin said:


> I went on that "Journey To A New Style," but stayed within the same _ryu, _Isshinryu_.  _Sound confusing?  It's not.  I spent many years doing Isshinryu as it had commonly been done since the Marines brought it back from Okinawa - Basic block, punch and kick, with a few other strikes thrown in.  It closely resembled most of the karate in the USA in this respect.
> 
> What changed was learning how the Okinawans did it - Original style karate.  So now my Isshinryu incorporates the original core concepts and principles (such as _hikite, tuite, bunkai oyo_, simultaneous defense and offense, and other Okinawan ideas of karate.)
> 
> The way I do karate today is so different from 20, 30, 50 yrs. ago, it is as different as any two karate styles, even though I have remained in the same system.  I'm still doing the Isshinryu _system_, but in the Okinawan _style_.  It's more than just putting my personal touch to it, it's adopting what karate really was (to the best we can know) prior to WWII in Okinawa.
> 
> A simple way to put it, is that instead of just reading the _Cliff Notes _version of karate, I'm reading the actual novel.  It contains enough rich and nuanced material to keep me busy for the next 20 years and really is a "journey to a new style."


Yeah for sure, I know what you mean! And we all go through our own personal evolution throughout. That's really cool even within the same style your karate is changing .

Our style has similarities in that they do things differently to what I'm used to, which I feel are more Okinawan style traits: not 'reverse-rotating' blocks, simultaneous block+strike, push/pull hikite use, even getting used to the 'uchi uke/inside block' being the opposite motion to the terminology I'm used to (this is out-to-in instead of in-to-out block)... along with a different 'whippy' punching style. All good fun and I'm loving the differences


----------



## Gerry Seymour

isshinryuronin said:


> I went on that "Journey To A New Style," but stayed within the same _ryu, _Isshinryu_.  _Sound confusing?  It's not.  I spent many years doing Isshinryu as it had commonly been done since the Marines brought it back from Okinawa - Basic block, punch and kick, with a few other strikes thrown in.  It closely resembled most of the karate in the USA in this respect.
> 
> What changed was learning how the Okinawans did it - Original style karate.  So now my Isshinryu incorporates the original core concepts and principles (such as _hikite, tuite, bunkai oyo_, simultaneous defense and offense, and other Okinawan ideas of karate.)
> 
> The way I do karate today is so different from 20, 30, 50 yrs. ago, it is as different as any two karate styles, even though I have remained in the same system.  I'm still doing the Isshinryu _system_, but in the Okinawan _style_.  It's more than just putting my personal touch to it, it's adopting what karate really was (to the best we can know) prior to WWII in Okinawa.
> 
> A simple way to put it, is that instead of just reading the _Cliff Notes _version of karate, I'm reading the actual novel.  It contains enough rich and nuanced material to keep me busy for the next 20 years and really is a "journey to a new style."


This is an interesting inversion of how I usually use "style" and "system". Normally, there are multiple "systems" (ways of developing people) within a larger "style" (the art), but this highlights that it can be the opposite: a number of ways of using the tools (system) to develop different sets of principles (styles).


----------



## _Simon_

Okay! I've been recently invited to grade this Wednesday to 2nd kyu! Feeling ready but still nervous. Have worked very hard on drills, bunkai and kata requirements, and unbeknownst to me part of my grading was sort of today haha.

We had our sparring class and Shihan sparred a few rounds with me to test me a bit, was some good hard sparring and he certainly tested me, was really fun. Was only a couple of rounds but he really pushed me. Even though it's not a big sparring-centred club, it was great to have that element tested a bit today, and I felt like I could hold my own well.

See how Wednesday goes! Kyu gradings aren't held on a separate day but during regular class which is fine, and are less of a survival test and more of a technical one and a focus on understanding the art. Still requiring baseline fitness though. Basically to see that you are already that grade rather than 'testing' for it, which is kinda nice of an approach


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Okay! I've been recently invited to grade this Wednesday to 2nd kyu! Feeling ready but still nervous. Have worked very hard on drills, bunkai and kata requirements, and unbeknownst to me part of my grading was sort of today haha.
> 
> We had our sparring class and Shihan sparred a few rounds with me to test me a bit, was some good hard sparring and he certainly tested me, was really fun. Was only a couple of rounds but he really pushed me. Even though it's not a big sparring-centred club, it was great to have that element tested a bit today, and I felt like I could hold my own well.
> 
> See how Wednesday goes! Kyu gradings aren't held on a separate day but during regular class which is fine, and are less of a survival test and more of a technical one and a focus on understanding the art. Still requiring baseline fitness though. Basically to see that you are already that grade rather than 'testing' for it, which is kinda nice of an approach


I'm a fan of surreptitious testing as part of the evaluation.


----------



## _Simon_

Gerry Seymour said:


> I'm a fan of surreptitious testing as part of the evaluation.


Haha me too, element of surprise!


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Okay! I've been recently invited to grade this Wednesday to 2nd kyu! Feeling ready but still nervous. Have worked very hard on drills, bunkai and kata requirements, and unbeknownst to me part of my grading was sort of today haha.
> 
> We had our sparring class and Shihan sparred a few rounds with me to test me a bit, was some good hard sparring and he certainly tested me, was really fun. Was only a couple of rounds but he really pushed me. Even though it's not a big sparring-centred club, it was great to have that element tested a bit today, and I felt like I could hold my own well.
> 
> See how Wednesday goes! Kyu gradings aren't held on a separate day but during regular class which is fine, and are less of a survival test and more of a technical one and a focus on understanding the art. Still requiring baseline fitness though. Basically to see that you are already that grade rather than 'testing' for it, which is kinda nice of an approach


Congrats, Simon.  Good luck with the grading although luck has nothing to do with it.   Cheers !


----------



## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> Congrats, Simon.  Good luck with the grading although luck has nothing to do with it.   Cheers !


Thanks so much!


----------



## _Simon_

All went very very well in the grading, I passed . Hard work and preparation and all went great.

Was quite nervous but it dissipated a bit during warmup. Was certainly pushed and it was tough at times, but felt confident. Only the odd stuffup that I recognised straight away. Loved doing the Sanchin kata with shime aspect. Was definitely nothing like one of my old Kyokushin gradings but was still pushed. Basic technique, formal and sparring drills, movement, kata, bunkai, general understanding, (sparring was the other day), and done. At the very end was asked to do the kata for this grade while everyone watched which was great.

Really honoured to receive the new rank


----------



## _Simon_

Also, still can't believe it... but waterfall training tomorrow! YUP! Something I've aaaalways wanted to do, and was invited by some of my old Kyokushin family. Really excited


----------



## _Simon_

_Simon_ said:


> Also, still can't believe it... but waterfall training tomorrow! YUP! Something I've aaaalways wanted to do, and was invited by some of my old Kyokushin family. Really excited
> 
> View attachment 28297


Waterfall training was SUCH an amazing experience!  It wasn't long at all, and we went up in groups of about 3 (due to lack of room underneath the water) and just did one kata under the falls: Tensho. Very fitting! Was harder to actually climb over to the waterfall than actually being under the water haha, very slippery rocks... so that was a big challenge. But we made it, can tick that off the list as it was definitely on there


----------



## AIKIKENJITSU

_Simon_ said:


> Okay... the time has come!
> 
> I'm finally (after much, much hesitation and deliberation haha..) enquiring about new styles, as I'm honestly just itching to get back into dojo training.. and feel mostly ready health-wise.
> 
> It's been an incredibly rough, painful, hellish and emotional 8 months or so.. and I still have a bit to go in terms of recovery, but I feel ready enough to try getting into training properly again. And it really marks a big step for me, as I definitely wasn't in this position a little while ago.
> 
> So the plan is to try a style for about a month or so to get the feel of it and see if it clicks with me. Very different to how I decided before, which was just training because I 'felt like I should', out of obligation almost. So suffice it to say, I'm very excited .
> 
> I've gotten a call back from a karate dojo just around the corner from me, I asked if i can sit in and watch and they said people tend to get more out of just giving it a go, so they invited me to train so looks like I'm training!
> 
> It sounds really awesome, it's a small dojo, and has gone through a few changes of style affiliation over time, and I think they operate more independently now, originally he trained in Kyokushin (and personally graded to Shodan under Sosai Oyama!), then Ashihara, Shintaiikudo, and taught in all of these, now with all his experience has organically sort of formed his own style, which incorporates all his previous styles plus including some Aikido principles as well (which he teaches as well).
> 
> Definitely sounds more up my alley, I'm really excited


I've been studying and teaching for many years and I know of Oyama. It may be for you and it may not. The way I found my art was to check as many dojos as they were in the area. When I stopped looking was when I found my art of Kenpo karate. The principles of Aikido are excellent as a add on to a kicking and punching martial art. I studied Aikido for a short time.
Sifu


----------



## AIKIKENJITSU

_Simon_ said:


> Okay... the time has come!
> 
> I'm finally (after much, much hesitation and deliberation haha..) enquiring about new styles, as I'm honestly just itching to get back into dojo training.. and feel mostly ready health-wise.
> 
> It's been an incredibly rough, painful, hellish and emotional 8 months or so.. and I still have a bit to go in terms of recovery, but I feel ready enough to try getting into training properly again. And it really marks a big step for me, as I definitely wasn't in this position a little while ago.
> 
> So the plan is to try a style for about a month or so to get the feel of it and see if it clicks with me. Very different to how I decided before, which was just training because I 'felt like I should', out of obligation almost. So suffice it to say, I'm very excited .
> 
> I've gotten a call back from a karate dojo just around the corner from me, I asked if i can sit in and watch and they said people tend to get more out of just giving it a go, so they invited me to train so looks like I'm training!
> 
> It sounds really awesome, it's a small dojo, and has gone through a few changes of style affiliation over time, and I think they operate more independently now, originally he trained in Kyokushin (and personally graded to Shodan under Sosai Oyama!), then Ashihara, Shintaiikudo, and taught in all of these, now with all his experience has organically sort of formed his own style, which incorporates all his previous styles plus including some Aikido principles as well (which he teaches as well).
> 
> Definitely sounds more up my alley, I'm really excited


When you find the right one, then you may study it and practice it forever! If you can, you might also check out American Kenpo or Tracy Kenpo.
Sifu


----------



## _Simon_

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I've been studying and teaching for many years and I know of Oyama. It may be for you and it may not. The way I found my art was to check as many dojos as they were in the area. When I stopped looking was when I found my art of Kenpo karate. The principles of Aikido are excellent as a add on to a kicking and punching martial art. I studied Aikido for a short time.
> Sifu


Very true, not everything is for everyone. It is interesting how we come across our place huh! Have explored a little aiki practice, and would love to do more 


AIKIKENJITSU said:


> When you find the right one, then you may study it and practice it forever! If you can, you might also check out American Kenpo or Tracy Kenpo.
> Sifu


Ah I see you haven't read through the thread to see the whole journey. I don't blame ya it's 22 pages haha, but I have found my home style and dojo.

Wouldn't think there'd be American Kenpo in Australia haha, but cheers for the recommendations appreciate it


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Waterfall training was SUCH an amazing experience!  It wasn't long at all, and we went up in groups of about 3 (due to lack of room underneath the water) and just did one kata under the falls: Tensho. Very fitting! Was harder to actually climb over to the waterfall than actually being under the water haha, very slippery rocks... so that was a big challenge. But we made it, can tick that off the list as it was definitely on there
> 
> View attachment 28304View attachment 28305


Osu, Simon !


----------



## _Simon_

Just a gratitude post, loving training and my dojo so much 

I love that it's structured but also very for your own personal style and encouraging your own interpretation. Even though kata is taught specifically my instructor allows for your own unique timing/rhythm/way of moving as long as it doesn't stray from what the movement is about/the principles.

Even sent a clip of a drill from some online training I did recently to my instructor, so we worked on that in class! Very open to student suggestions, feedback and things we'd like to work on, while still drilling things we need to work on.

Loving it so much


----------



## _Simon_

Huge day... grading today, successfully achieved 1st Kyu. That... was...... hard haha. It's amazing how even though you put in immense of amounts of training leading up to it: basics, technique, kata, theory, principles, application, partner drills, sparring, endurance/stamina, cardio, mobility, and how you can still struggle regardless.

Was really tested, and I wouldn't want it any other way. I think it means so much more that it doesn't go perfectly how you thought, thinking my cardio should hold up etc, yet minutes in and my legs felt like lead, and the body did not want to cooperate haha. You summon an unseen, but deeply felt aspect that drives and accompanies you. 

I guess you can't really ever fully prepare, the only real preparation is the willingness to undergo what lies ahead. Even spilling my red electrolyte drink all over my white gi pants just before the grading I'm pretty sure wasn't in the schedule!!! 

Really struggled in parts but made it through. Sparring was awesome, 4 rounds and last up was one of the instructors who wanted to make sure I worked for it and was tested. He really gave me a good fight, and I was buggered by that point so didn't spar 100% how I would've liked to, but did very well holding my own. All the instructors were incredibly encouraging and said my grading was superb. Huge day, this one meant alot, and was very emotional with tears afterwards.


----------



## punisher73

_Simon_ said:


> Huge day... grading today, successfully achieved 1st Kyu. That... was...... hard haha. It's amazing how even though you put in immense of amounts of training leading up to it: basics, technique, kata, theory, principles, application, partner drills, sparring, endurance/stamina, cardio, mobility, and how you can still struggle regardless.
> 
> Was really tested, and I wouldn't want it any other way. I think it means so much more that it doesn't go perfectly how you thought, thinking my cardio should hold up etc, yet minutes in and my legs felt like lead, and the body did not want to cooperate haha. You summon an unseen, but deeply felt aspect that drives and accompanies you.
> 
> I guess you can't really ever fully prepare, the only real preparation is the willingness to undergo what lies ahead. Even spilling my red electrolyte drink all over my white gi pants just before the grading I'm pretty sure wasn't in the schedule!!!
> 
> Really struggled in parts but made it through. Sparring was awesome, 4 rounds and last up was one of the instructors who wanted to make sure I worked for it and was tested. He really gave me a good fight, and I was buggered by that point so didn't spar 100% how I would've liked to, but did very well holding my own. All the instructors were incredibly encouraging and said my grading was superb. Huge day, this one meant alot, and was very emotional with tears afterwards.


Congrats!

At the doorway now!


----------



## Jimmythebull

_Simon_ said:


> Huge day... grading today, successfully achieved 1st Kyu. That... was...... hard haha. It's amazing how even though you put in immense of amounts of training leading up to it: basics, technique, kata, theory, principles, application, partner drills, sparring, endurance/stamina, cardio, mobility, and how you can still struggle regardless.
> 
> Was really tested, and I wouldn't want it any other way. I think it means so much more that it doesn't go perfectly how you thought, thinking my cardio should hold up etc, yet minutes in and my legs felt like lead, and the body did not want to cooperate haha. You summon an unseen, but deeply felt aspect that drives and accompanies you.
> 
> I guess you can't really ever fully prepare, the only real preparation is the willingness to undergo what lies ahead. Even spilling my red electrolyte drink all over my white gi pants just before the grading I'm pretty sure wasn't in the schedule!!!
> 
> Really struggled in parts but made it through. Sparring was awesome, 4 rounds and last up was one of the instructors who wanted to make sure I worked for it and was tested. He really gave me a good fight, and I was buggered by that point so didn't spar 100% how I would've liked to, but did very well holding my own. All the instructors were incredibly encouraging and said my grading was superb. Huge day, this one meant alot, and was very emotional with tears afterwards.


well done mate...well done open a Fosters & listen to a song from Men at work. my favourit song from them...






well done !


----------



## Darksoul

Took me over an hour to get through this thread but definitely appreciate the perspective on your journey to find the right for you school. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Huge day... grading today, successfully achieved 1st Kyu. That... was...... hard haha. It's amazing how even though you put in immense of amounts of training leading up to it: basics, technique, kata, theory, principles, application, partner drills, sparring, endurance/stamina, cardio, mobility, and how you can still struggle regardless.
> 
> Was really tested, and I wouldn't want it any other way. I think it means so much more that it doesn't go perfectly how you thought, thinking my cardio should hold up etc, yet minutes in and my legs felt like lead, and the body did not want to cooperate haha. You summon an unseen, but deeply felt aspect that drives and accompanies you.
> 
> I guess you can't really ever fully prepare, the only real preparation is the willingness to undergo what lies ahead. Even spilling my red electrolyte drink all over my white gi pants just before the grading I'm pretty sure wasn't in the schedule!!!
> 
> Really struggled in parts but made it through. Sparring was awesome, 4 rounds and last up was one of the instructors who wanted to make sure I worked for it and was tested. He really gave me a good fight, and I was buggered by that point so didn't spar 100% how I would've liked to, but did very well holding my own. All the instructors were incredibly encouraging and said my grading was superb. Huge day, this one meant alot, and was very emotional with tears afterwards.


I love a good, difficult test. Good work!!


----------



## _Simon_

punisher73 said:


> Congrats!
> 
> At the doorway now!


Thank you!!!  I know right *bites nail*... it's been such a long journey...


----------



## _Simon_

Jimmythebull said:


> well done mate...well done open a Fosters & listen to a song from Men at work. my favourit song from them...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well done !


Thanks mate, and hahaha well done you've really captured some Aussie vibes there! 🤣


----------



## _Simon_

Darksoul said:


> Took me over an hour to get through this thread but definitely appreciate the perspective on your journey to find the right for you school. Thanks for sharing!


Oh that really means alot that you took the time to read through, really appreciate that alot! I'm definitely glad I didn't settle when I easily could have


----------



## _Simon_

Gerry Seymour said:


> I love a good, difficult test. Good work!!


Thanks Gerry!! Was a really good balance of everything for sure!


----------



## _Simon_

We've got our demonstration day this Saturday, possibly 120 people showing up and training! Mainly so the kids can show all their family how far they've come, but also for the senior students to demonstrate some advanced stuff.

I got some boards cut up today and going to do 2 breaks, seiken tsuki and yoko geri. Never done a yoko geri break so it should be good fun! Also performing a style outside our system, Kanku-sho. It has two big jumps in it, so I think that and the board breaks the kids will really love haha. I know how much certain events can register and stay with kids so I feel it a responsibility and an honour to demonstrate some stuff.

Nervous but looking forward to it!


----------



## tkdroamer

_Simon_ said:


> We've got our demonstration day this Saturday, possibly 120 people showing up and training! Mainly so the kids can show all their family how far they've come, but also for the senior students to demonstrate some advanced stuff.
> 
> I got some boards cut up today and going to do 2 breaks, seiken tsuki and yoko geri. Never done a yoko geri break so it should be good fun! Also performing a style outside our system, Kanku-sho. It has two big jumps in it, so I think that and the board breaks the kids will really love haha. I know how much certain events can register and stay with kids so I feel it a responsibility and an honour to demonstrate some stuff.
> 
> Nervous but looking forward to it!


I hope you have a blast!


----------



## _Simon_

So... just attempted a break with one of the boards just to make sure it breaks well. And it... did NOT break... 😞. Really hurt, don't think I've broken my hand but it has swollen a bit. That has NEVER happened before, every break I've done has been successful. My technique seemed to be really good, wrist doesn't hurt and it didn't cave, but the board just didn't break.

I wasn't sure about this wood... it's pine, but it has layers throughout it. And I was hoping this wasn't some way to reinforce and make the wood stronger... but I feel like that's what happened.

My confidence is a bit shattered at the moment ugh.. might just bring my rebreakable board and do an elbow and sidekick break. There's a lesson here I know, not everything always goes to plan haha.

Anyone else think this wood may not be ideal? (Notice the layering with each board)


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## tkdroamer

_Simon_ said:


> So... just attempted a break with one of the boards just to make sure it breaks well. And it... did NOT break... 😞. Really hurt, don't think I've broken my hand but it has swollen a bit. That has NEVER happened before, every break I've done has been successful. My technique seemed to be really good, wrist doesn't hurt and it didn't cave, but the board just didn't break.
> 
> I wasn't sure about this wood... it's pine, but it has layers throughout it. And I was hoping this wasn't some way to reinforce and make the wood stronger... but I feel like that's what happened.
> 
> My confidence is a bit shattered at the moment ugh.. might just bring my rebreakable board and do an elbow and sidekick break. There's a lesson here I know, not everything always goes to plan haha.
> 
> Anyone else think this wood may not be ideal? (Notice the layering with each board)
> 
> View attachment 29275


That's PLYWOOD!!! Layers of wood material built up in cross-grained sections. It is engineered wood made to have much stronger lateral loading. Completely different from the boards used for breaking, They are about 20%-30% glued. No wonder you did not break it. 
You need this: 1x12x8' Pine Board


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## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> We've got our demonstration day this Saturday, possibly 120 people showing up and training! Mainly so the kids can show all their family how far they've come, but also for the senior students to demonstrate some advanced stuff.
> 
> I got some boards cut up today and going to do 2 breaks, seiken tsuki and yoko geri. Never done a yoko geri break so it should be good fun! Also performing a style outside our system, Kanku-sho. It has two big jumps in it, so I think that and the board breaks the kids will really love haha. I know how much certain events can register and stay with kids so I feel it a responsibility and an honour to demonstrate some stuff.
> 
> Nervous but looking forward to it!


I've never trained anywhere we had 120 people, much less could get that many to a demo. That sounds like a ton of fun!


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## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> So... just attempted a break with one of the boards just to make sure it breaks well. And it... did NOT break... 😞. Really hurt, don't think I've broken my hand but it has swollen a bit. That has NEVER happened before, every break I've done has been successful. My technique seemed to be really good, wrist doesn't hurt and it didn't cave, but the board just didn't break.
> 
> I wasn't sure about this wood... it's pine, but it has layers throughout it. And I was hoping this wasn't some way to reinforce and make the wood stronger... but I feel like that's what happened.
> 
> My confidence is a bit shattered at the moment ugh.. might just bring my rebreakable board and do an elbow and sidekick break. There's a lesson here I know, not everything always goes to plan haha.
> 
> Anyone else think this wood may not be ideal? (Notice the layering with each board)
> 
> View attachment 29275


Ow. That's plywood, and not suitable for your purposes. You want plain boards, cut across the grain, so the break will be in line with the natural weakness of the board. Plywood is cross-layered (grain of each layer at 90 degrees to its' neighbors'), specifically to prevent there being that natural weak point.


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## _Simon_

tkdroamer said:


> That's PLYWOOD!!! Layers of wood material built up in cross-grained sections. It is engineered wood made to have much stronger lateral loading. Completely different from the boards used for breaking, They are about 20%-30% glued. No wonder you did not break it.
> You need this: 1x12x8' Pine Board





Gerry Seymour said:


> Ow. That's plywood, and not suitable for your purposes. You want plain boards, cut across the grain, so the break will be in line with the natural weakness of the board. Plywood is cross-layered (grain of each layer at 90 degrees to its' neighbors'), specifically to prevent there being that natural weak point.


Yeah I thought so... ugh... I'll know for next time. Thanks guys, the link doesn't work @tkdroamer but I think I know what you mean.

Hey if anyone wants 12 really good boards you can have them?? Test your strength?? 💪🥇


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## _Simon_

Demonstration Day went so well, such a beautiful day spent with wonderful people! Massive turnout, was a bit daunting, but all went well. Kanku-sho went perfect, a very dynamic athletic kata and I stuck the landing well in the jumps haha. Kids loved it and parents' feedback afterwards was so touching, telling me their eyes opened wide throughout the form. Some afterwards were even trying to do one of the moves haha.

Did some other demos too (sparring and other forms), but my instructor must have forgotten about my board breaks or maybe time was running out haha. Did a little speech at the end thanking my instructors and gave them a calligraphy piece each that I did. Lovely day 









In full flight haha:


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## tkdroamer

_Simon_ said:


> Demonstration Day went so well, such a beautiful day spent with wonderful people! Massive turnout, was a bit daunting, but all went well. Kanku-sho went perfect, a very dynamic athletic kata and I stuck the landing well in the jumps haha. Kids loved it and parents' feedback afterwards was so touching, telling me their eyes opened wide throughout the form. Some afterwards were even trying to do one of the moves haha.
> 
> Did some other demos too (sparring and other forms), but my instructor must have forgotten about my board breaks or maybe time was running out haha. Did a little speech at the end thanking my instructors and gave them a calligraphy piece each that I did. Lovely day
> 
> View attachment 29304
> 
> View attachment 29303
> 
> In full flight haha:
> View attachment 29302
> 
> 
> View attachment 29305


Fantastic height on the jump! Excellent turnout.


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## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> So... just attempted a break with one of the boards just to make sure it breaks well. And it... did NOT break... 😞. Really hurt, don't think I've broken my hand but it has swollen a bit. That has NEVER happened before, every break I've done has been successful. My technique seemed to be really good, wrist doesn't hurt and it didn't cave, but the board just didn't break.
> 
> I wasn't sure about this wood... it's pine, but it has layers throughout it. And I was hoping this wasn't some way to reinforce and make the wood stronger... but I feel like that's what happened.
> 
> My confidence is a bit shattered at the moment ugh.. might just bring my rebreakable board and do an elbow and sidekick break. There's a lesson here I know, not everything always goes to plan haha.
> 
> Anyone else think this wood may not be ideal? (Notice the layering with each board)
> 
> View attachment 29275


Well as many people have already said, plywood not a good choice for board breaking.    You want pine boards from a mill preferably that will cut them 11” x 12”. You want them rectangular so so don’t mistakenly layer the boards cross grain.


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## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> Well as many people have already said, plywood not a good choice for board breaking.    You want pine boards from a mill preferably that will cut them 11” x 12”. You want them rectangular so so don’t mistakenly layer the boards cross grain.


Cheers mate, yeah I won't make that mistake again haha... hand still hasn't recovered! Still sore and knuckles still look a little weird from swelling, but I am functional now and it is improving slowly... wonder how long this sort of thing takes to heal, literally hitting a solid object. Bone bruises could be a couple of months I hear..


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## Oily Dragon

_Simon_ said:


> Demonstration Day went so well, such a beautiful day spent with wonderful people! Massive turnout, was a bit daunting, but all went well. Kanku-sho went perfect, a very dynamic athletic kata and I stuck the landing well in the jumps haha. Kids loved it and parents' feedback afterwards was so touching, telling me their eyes opened wide throughout the form. Some afterwards were even trying to do one of the moves haha.
> 
> Did some other demos too (sparring and other forms), but my instructor must have forgotten about my board breaks or maybe time was running out haha. Did a little speech at the end thanking my instructors and gave them a calligraphy piece each that I did. Lovely day
> 
> View attachment 29304
> 
> View attachment 29303
> 
> In full flight haha:
> View attachment 29302
> 
> 
> View attachment 29305


The look on the kids faces is priceless.  It's nice to know they can still be impressed, even in this day and age of cynics and smartphones.

Well done, dude.  Color me also impressed.


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## Steve

Simon, that hair.  I started going bald in my teens, man. Id kill for that hair. 

That looks like some nice cabinet grade plywood, my man.  Build something nice with it. 

I’m glad that otherwise the demo went well.  You look like you’re having a good time.


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## Oily Dragon

Steve said:


> Simon, that hair.  I started going bald in my teens, man. Id kill for that hair.
> 
> That looks like some nice cabinet grade plywood, my man.  Build something nice with it.
> 
> I’m glad that otherwise the demo went well.  You look like you’re having a good time.


Saw somebody in my gym the other day wearing this, must have been almost 60.

That hair.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Steve said:


> Simon, that hair.  I started going bald in my teens, man. Id kill for that hair.


It only cost you $4.00 to transplant a single hair. 

IMO, it can be the best iinvestment that you can make in your life time.


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## _Simon_

Steve said:


> Simon, that hair.  I started going bald in my teens, man. Id kill for that hair.
> 
> That looks like some nice cabinet grade plywood, my man.  Build something nice with it.
> 
> I’m glad that otherwise the demo went well.  You look like you’re having a good time.


Hahaha cheers! It gets heavy so am choppin it all off soon, hitting summertime soon too haha.

I'll learn how to build stuff, and then possibly! Or I'll learn the perfect master technique over several years, and report back here letting you know I broke all the boards


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## Gyakuto

tkdroamer said:


> That's PLYWOOD!!! Layers of wood material built up in cross-grained sections. It is engineered wood made to have much stronger lateral loading. Completely different from the boards used for breaking, They are about 20%-30% glued. No wonder you did not break it.
> You need this: 1x12x8' Pine Board


Yes…laminations make it really strong (which is why they fold the steel in Japanese swords!)! Try unlaminated dry timber with an obvious straight grain and have them held with the grain held horizontally when you try and break them.

Wood/ceramic breaking is a bit of a trick, to be honest. Breaking freshly fired bricks is much easier than trying to break a brick that’s held you yard door open for 30 years and dried, straight grained boards easier than anything else.

When I was at school I had a photographer friend who wanted to do a strobe photo of me break 4-5 roof tiles with a knife hand. I’d never broken anything before (except the lady’s hearts 😉) but was confident in my abilities as I 3as a 1st Kyu in Wado Ryu at that point😏🤨. He set it all up on a table in a dark room where I’d have to hit the small stack with little spacers between each tile, in the pitch black. He opened the camera shutter and shouted ‘GO!’ I brought my knife hand down with great force and to flashes of bright light. My hand exploded in pain 😳😭 When we switched the lights on, we realised I’d smashed through the tiles effortlessly and hit the solid, unyielding tabletop which bl**dy hurt😂 I had to pick out shards of tile from my bleeding hand🤣


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## Gyakuto

_Simon_ said:


> Demonstration Day went so well, such a beautiful day spent with wonderful people! Massive turnout, was a bit daunting, but all went well. Kanku-sho went perfect, a very dynamic athletic kata and I stuck the landing well in the jumps haha. Kids loved it and parents' feedback afterwards was so touching, telling me their eyes opened wide throughout the form. Some afterwards were even trying to do one of the moves haha.
> 
> Did some other demos too (sparring and other forms), but my instructor must have forgotten about my board breaks or maybe time was running out haha. Did a little speech at the end thanking my instructors and gave them a calligraphy piece each that I did. Lovely day
> 
> View attachment 29304
> 
> View attachment 29303
> 
> In full flight haha:
> View attachment 29302
> 
> 
> View attachment 29305


You look great…very impressed! BUT, that is not a regulation Karate haircut 😑 You require a Williams (Jim Kelly) Afro, if you want to look cool.


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## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Cheers mate, yeah I won't make that mistake again haha... hand still hasn't recovered! Still sore and knuckles still look a little weird from swelling, but I am functional now and it is improving slowly... wonder how long this sort of thing takes to heal, literally hitting a solid object. Bone bruises could be a couple of months I hear..


Hopefully you didn’t fracture anything.   A fracture can take 4-6 weeks to heal but possibly a year for the hand to feel 100%.   If it’s just a bone bruise you got off lucky.


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## Gerry Seymour

Gyakuto said:


> Yes…laminations make it really strong (which is why they fold the steel in Japanese swords!)! Try unlaminated dry timber with an obvious straight grain and have them held with the grain held horizontally when you try and break them.
> 
> Wood/ceramic breaking is a bit of a trick, to be honest. Breaking freshly fired bricks is much easier than trying to break a brick that’s held you yard door open for 30 years and dried, straight grained boards easier than anything else.
> 
> When I was at school I had a photographer friend who wanted to do a strobe photo of me break 4-5 roof tiles with a knife hand. I’d never broken anything before (except the lady’s hearts 😉) but was confident in my abilities as I 3as a 1st Kyu in Wado Ryu at that point😏🤨. He set it all up on a table in a dark room where I’d have to hit the small stack with little spacers between each tile, in the pitch black. He opened the camera shutter and shouted ‘GO!’ I brought my knife hand down with great force and to flashes of bright light. My hand exploded in pain 😳😭 When we switched the lights on, we realised I’d smashed through the tiles effortlessly and hit the solid, unyielding tabletop which bl**dy hurt😂 I had to pick out shards of tile from my bleeding hand🤣


I have to admit I enjoyed your pain in that story far more than I should have.

Well done!


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## Gyakuto

This is that image from 1984. I thought there were more tiles!


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## Gerry Seymour

Gyakuto said:


> This is that image from 1984. I thought there were more tiles!
> View attachment 29318


Very cool shot!


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## Gyakuto

Gerry Seymour said:


> Very cool shot!


Funny rubbery hand!


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## _Simon_

Gyakuto said:


> This is that image from 1984. I thought there were more tiles!
> View attachment 29318


SO cool! OUCH result, but SO cool!


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## Gyakuto

_Simon_ said:


> SO cool! OUCH result, but SO cool!


You too could smash your hand into a table and fight back the tears in front of your 17yr old friends…


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