# Importance of Ethics in Selecting a Dojo



## Stargazer (Jul 7, 2013)

Thought I'd throw this out to you guys:

How important are the ethics of the school or organization you are training with?  Is this a valid consideration or should selection of schools be based solely on the actual training received?

To me, I would not train at an unethical school or one where I really disagreed with important decisions.

Seems to me that a lot of the bigger organizations I've seen, have made or are making serious unethical decisions.  Not all, but a lot I've seen.  This could be just not seeing enough, I don't know.

What are your thoughts?  Would you select a great teacher even if the larger group was lousy, pick an average teacher with high morals at an independent school, or something else.

Thanks for your advice.


----------



## Cyriacus (Jul 7, 2013)

Could you please elaborate as to what you mean by ethics? Do you mean consideration for the law, consideration for each other, consideration for post traumatic stress...


----------



## Stargazer (Jul 8, 2013)

Good point. Thank you.

For me, ethics would mean not making organizational decisions that knowingly cause harm to others.  Following the law, consideration for others, etc. are part of that, but I'm talking about big picture ethical issues (something your average person would be highly offended by), not minor squabble- type issues.  Don't know why I'm encountering so many larger schools (3 plus schools within a company) where there are issues enough I question spending money there to train.  Some have great individual teachers, which is why I wonder if you guys think the broader ethical issues should be considered or not.


----------



## Cyriacus (Jul 8, 2013)

Ah, that. Its the unfortunate biproduct of blending martial arts with peoples sense of politics. It isnt everywhere, but its certainly around.

My advice is to take what you want. If you learn from someone, youre not learning to become them or their organization. Youre just learning a skill, like any other. If you think youre going to gain from learning with one of these people and you dont have anything against that person specifically, it should be fine. If, on the other hand, you think that their internal problems are going to inhibit you or take you in a bad direction, just dont. Dont accept close enough as being good enough. Take what you want, not whats available. Youre the one who has to commit time and money into doing it, so you should be getting what YOU want.


----------



## Happy-Papi (Jul 8, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Ah, that. Its the unfortunate biproduct of blending martial arts with peoples sense of politics. It isnt everywhere, but its certainly around.
> 
> My advice is to take what you want. If you learn from someone, youre not learning to become them or their organization. Youre just learning a skill, like any other. If you think youre going to gain from learning with one of these people and you dont have anything against that person specifically, it should be fine. If, on the other hand, you think that their internal problems are going to inhibit you or take you in a bad direction, just dont. Dont accept close enough as being good enough. Take what you want, not whats available. Youre the one who has to commit time and money into doing it, so you should be getting what YOU want.



I think that this is the best answer. 



> Strgazer
> For me, ethics would mean not making organizational decisions that  knowingly cause harm to others.  Following the law, consideration for  others, etc. are part of that, but I'm talking about big picture ethical  issues (something your average person would be highly offended by), not  minor squabble- type issues.  Don't know why I'm encountering so many  larger schools (3 plus schools within a company) where there are issues  enough I question spending money there to train.  Some have great  individual teachers, which is why I wonder if you guys think the broader  ethical issues should be considered or not.



Most of my MA seniors are military people, ironically some of my seniors are really dodgy characters (jailbirds, pro thugs, weird paramilitary, etc.). Basing on their background especially the later ones, their way of thinking, morals, etc. are a bit different than normal civilians. To be honest, I get along with these guys better than normal civilian dojos and this is why I never finished a study in a civilian dojo. One example is: one of my jailbird senior was put in bars for serious crimes. I took what I needed from their group but I didn't follow their path. Actually, people may be bad or different in some ways but most of them also have lots of good stuffs to share plus we can sometimes learn from their shortcomings. 

Just like what Cyriacus wrote, "You're not leaning to become them or their organization. You're just learning a skill like any other".


----------



## lklawson (Jul 8, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Ah, that. Its the unfortunate biproduct of blending martial arts with peoples sense of politics. It isnt everywhere, but its certainly around.
> 
> My advice is to take what you want. If you learn from someone, youre not learning to become them or their organization. Youre just learning a skill, like any other. If you think youre going to gain from learning with one of these people and you dont have anything against that person specifically, it should be fine. If, on the other hand, you think that their internal problems are going to inhibit you or take you in a bad direction, just dont. Dont accept close enough as being good enough. Take what you want, not whats available. Youre the one who has to commit time and money into doing it, so you should be getting what YOU want.


Well stated.

In general I agree.  I've got a bit more nuance to add to it, however.

First, it should be understood that different cultures have different ethics.  We know this intellectually, but most of us forget it in practice.  I've seen this happen to people in Tae Kwon Do.  They got all excited that a genuine Korean master was teaching and wanted to take classes from him.  Then they got pissed off that a Korean transplant, who'd lived most of his life in Korea, was treating Americans, in America, like he would treat Korean students in Korea.

Duh.

Or going to Japan to train Judo, Kendo, Kenjutsu, Karate, whatever.  Their "ethics" are Japanese.  If you're *lucky* you'll be treated like Japanese otherwise, you'll be treated like a foreigner; tolerated at best but never fully accepted and still expected to comply with social norms (which have different standards for how foreigners are treated).

Which brings me to my second nuance.  As you mentioned, it's a physical skill you're learning.  If the only place that teaches the skill you want to learn doesn't fit with your ethics system, then you have a choice to make.  Either suck it up, take the instruction, and deal with it (a foreigner in Japan, right?), or give up on learning that skill until you can find someone teaching it which closer fits your ethics.  If you can.  You might not.  Ever.  And, even if you do, eventually, find someone, there's a chance that they had to suck it up and deal with the originating social ethical system and may have absorbed more of it than they realize.

In other words, "What's it worth to you?"  Because, in some cultures, it's not always just a financial & business agreement.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## rlobrecht (Jul 8, 2013)

I think this thread is too generic to give any real advise beyond what has already been mentioned, but I have a few scenarios you may want to think about when choosing a school.

Contracts - many of us would consider really long term contracts (i.e. multi year, horrible clauses to get out of them, etc) to be unethical, but in many places they are a fact of business.  Your typical big fitness gym chain has them, why not a small martial arts school.

Child labor - does the school hire children under the legal working age?  Does it require junior black belts to assist in teaching (with or without pay)? This is seen in a lot of martial arts schools.

Moving goalposts - how would you feel is your chosen school changed the requirements to earn a black belt, or changed the focus of their training altogether. This caused me to leave the school I was training at.


----------



## Stargazer (Jul 8, 2013)

Thank you all for these replies.  They are excellent suggestions.  I think the sentiment of you're learning a skill, pick the most skilled teacher is valid.  To reply to Rick, I wouldn't be concerned about legitimate business decisions (if they are up front about it, I can choose to agree or not).  For me, it is larger issues.  The moving goal posts is shady - that would be a deal breaker to me, too.  But I'm talking even bigger picture issues where some people within groups feel it is their right to do whatever they please.  Where I am these reputations are well established and one will be associated with the groups they train.


----------



## Cyriacus (Jul 8, 2013)

Stargazer said:


> Thank you all for these replies.  They are excellent suggestions.  I think the sentiment of you're learning a skill, pick the most skilled teacher is valid.  To reply to Rick, I wouldn't be concerned about legitimate business decisions (if they are up front about it, I can choose to agree or not).  For me, it is larger issues.  The moving goal posts is shady - that would be a deal breaker to me, too.  But I'm talking even bigger picture issues where some people within groups feel it is their right to do whatever they please.  Where I am these reputations are well established and one will be associated with the groups they train.



Frankly, who cares what other people think of who youre associated with. If you eat meat, do you care about what a vegan would think of you?
Youre the one who gets to pick and choose here


----------



## lklawson (Jul 8, 2013)

rlobrecht said:


> Contracts - many of us would consider really long term contracts (i.e. multi year, horrible clauses to get out of them, etc) to be unethical, but in many places they are a fact of business.  Your typical big fitness gym chain has them, why not a small martial arts school.


Contracts, even long-term contracts, aren't unethical by nature.  It depends on the contract.  Having contracts, has a lot of advantages for the instructor/school and can offer advantages for the student such as a lower total cost.  When contracts become questionable is when they are used to lock in the contract holder such as not having escape clauses for moving (for example).

A short discussion of contracts is warranted.  Many martial artists are
wary of school contracts.  Contracts have been known to be used by scam
artists in the past or, occasionally by legitimate martial artists who will
"stick it to you," enforcing payment terms of the contract should you wish
to be "out" of it for whatever reason.  However, there are many legitimate
uses of contracts by martial arts schools.  They can reduce costs for the
instructor and free him from tedious billing issues that can distract him
from teaching martial arts.  Don't let the option of a contract dissuade
you from any particular school but be wary of schools that _require_ a
contract (and will not give you a month-to-month option) or contracts that
guarantee "black belt" within a given time frame.

rec.martial-arts Newbie's Guide​
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
​


----------



## lklawson (Jul 8, 2013)

Stargazer said:


> I think the sentiment of you're learning a skill, pick the most skilled teacher is valid.


Most skilled?  Not necessarily.  Skill and ability is important, but so is the ability to teach.  It doesn't matter how skilled a given exponent of skill is if they cannot teach for crap.

Also, if the skill is new to you, then you may not be able to tell the difference between "very high level of skill" and "adequate" level of skill.  As a rank beginner, you simply may not the means to differentiate.  If the choice is between someone who's very highly skilled but a poor teacher and someone who is adequately skilled but a great teacher, choose the second.  There's a reason people use coaches and not all coaches were high level competitors previously in their own right.

If you were in the market for boxing lessons, would you prefer to take lessons from Tyson or from Tyson's coach?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Stargazer (Jul 8, 2013)

Frankly, I'm torn between Cyriacus' comment of who cares, train as you wish, and these loftier notions of training with someone like Mr. Miyagi.  Now I know, Miyagi is fictional, but the notion of what he represents - that training isn't simply about skill, but character, too is something that's important to me.

For some background, I'm an intermediate/advanced student.  My first teacher was a phenom and the class was great.  I left because of a situation where someone got harmed and the larger company swept it under the rug.  Neither the teacher nor I did anything wrong.  It was something where the situation forces your hand.  

Began training at another school which kind of echoed your comments above.  The teacher was skilled, but not a great teacher.  Also, I felt like excessive pricing, moving goal posts, and lack of serious training were reason enough to say no and continue looking around.

With regard to contracts, I don't like them, but they're not out of the question if the terms are fair.  

I think I regret leaving school one.  Maybe Cyriacus is right.  Let them do whatever they want as long as you're not part of it.  Who cares what others think? At the time it seemed so egregious that bowing out seemed correct.  Now that I'm touring a lot of school doing seriously sleazy stuff, I wonder if this is normal and I was wrong and too self righteous.

Also, with regard to teachers who've had trouble in the past and improved themselves, who cares?  I think that shows a lot initiative.  I do worry about those places where wrong doing is par for the course or students are viewed solely as sales units.


----------



## Cyriacus (Jul 8, 2013)

Stargazer said:


> Frankly, I'm torn between Cyriacus' comment of who cares, train as you wish, and these loftier notions of training with someone like Mr. Miyagi.  Now I know, Miyagi is fictional, but the notion of what he represents - that training isn't simply about skill, but character, too is something that's important to me.
> 
> For some background, I'm an intermediate/advanced student.  My first teacher was a phenom and the class was great.  I left because of a situation where someone got harmed and the larger company swept it under the rug.  Neither the teacher nor I did anything wrong.  It was something where the situation forces your hand.
> 
> ...



The fact is, until you find your ideal instructor, your ideal instructor isnt an option. So if you dont like the options you DO have, just discard them. It sounds to me like youre trying to talk yourself either into or out of going for one of these less ideal options. If youre trying to talk yourself into it, dont do it. If youre trying to talk yourself out of it, seriously consider doing it.


----------



## rlobrecht (Jul 10, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Contracts, even long-term contracts, aren't unethical by nature.  It depends on the contract.  Having contracts, has a lot of advantages for the instructor/school and can offer advantages for the student such as a lower total cost.



True, and I didn't mean to say that all contracts were bad.  In fact, I was under one for a time because the school gave a hefty discount for committing for a year. (it did have a way to get out if you moved.)

There's a new thread over in General about a pretty awful contract, and the equally slimy school owner behind it.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jul 15, 2013)

Stargazer said:


> Thought I'd throw this out to you guys:
> 
> How important are the ethics of the school or organization you are training with?  Is this a valid consideration or should selection of schools be based solely on the actual training received?



Well, considering martial arts are generally delivery systems for teaching people "the Way" then ethics/morality/whatever you wish to call it is going to be part of your training. Not in a discursive fashion, necessarily, but rather in the sense that your teacher is the one who is supposed to be guiding you as you progress on the Way. They might be far ahead in their own progress or simply a pace or two in front of you, but in more traditional arts they are still your guide. I

f I was considering training at a school with an instructor who I knew wasn't exactly strong in this area I'd definitely give it a pass. We are all influenced by the people we spend time around so why would I want to be around someone who doesn't have a high character? 



> Seems to me that a lot of the bigger organizations I've seen, have made or are making serious unethical decisions.  Not all, but a lot I've seen.  This could be just not seeing enough, I don't know



Since you provide no specifics I really can't comment on this. I will say, however, that there is one organization I will never affiliate myself to because of one of its high ranking members and his blatantly unethical behavior. 



> What are your thoughts?  Would you select a great teacher even if the larger group was lousy, pick an average teacher with high morals at an independent school, or something else.
> 
> Thanks for your advice.



My experience is that if the larger group is "lousy" then chances are most of the instructors aren't great, either. Not necessarily all of them but a lot of them. If the problem starts at the top it eventually spreads through the body. Lower ranks see how the higher rank acts and either decide that's how they should act, too, or they leave. It's not impossible that a bad instructor produces good students but it is unlikely. Why play the odds?

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Balrog (Aug 2, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Ah, that. Its the unfortunate biproduct of blending martial arts with peoples sense of politics. It isnt everywhere, but its certainly around.
> 
> My advice is to take what you want. If you learn from someone, youre not learning to become them or their organization. Youre just learning a skill, like any other. If you think youre going to gain from learning with one of these people and you dont have anything against that person specifically, it should be fine. If, on the other hand, you think that their internal problems are going to inhibit you or take you in a bad direction, just dont. Dont accept close enough as being good enough. Take what you want, not whats available. Youre the one who has to commit time and money into doing it, so you should be getting what YOU want.


Can't argue that.   Well stated.


----------



## Kenpo5.0Hawker (Sep 2, 2013)

I wouldn't go to a school with unfair bizness practices or that gave away bets. That would great on my nerves far too much. And since my daughter is also in training the quality of the people there is equally important to me. I'd like her Heroes to be good examples. 

But if it was only myself going I'd have no problem training at a place that had some shady characters training there, as long as they trained hard and treated me respectfully. I tend to get along well with everybody without getting caught up in their bizness. 

Tom


----------



## MikeBielat (Sep 3, 2013)

Personally, I would stay away from any of the McDojo's in your area. Some instructors get 5 or 6 schools across the city and focus on $ over anything else. A ton of schools have affordable (or free) first class or 4 week trials. Try a couple out. See which one fits your needs. We have some McDojo's around my neck of the woods and the owner is never there... You get your belts like clockwork but do you really want to just coast through a curriculum as long as your wallet is open?

I personally feel that the owner should be the one teaching and should possess the traits that we would expect from ANY teacher. You shouldn't be afraid to ask them questions either. Choosing a bad karate school could make or break an otherwise enjoyable and lifelong journey of yours.


----------

