# American TKD Grandmasters List



## Spookey

Good Day,

I am doing some research related to American Grandmasters of Taekwondo.

American Grandmasters List:

Edward Sell - GM Uhm, Won Kyu

Charles Seriff - GM Choi, Hong Hi

Robert Hardin - GGM Nam & GM Kong, Young Il

Scott McNeely - GGM Nam & GM Kong, Young Il

 Those listed above were very easy to confirm, however I am having a hard time regarding GM Bert & Craig Kollars. 

So far I have contacted the office organization FB page, obtained a telephone number for their HQ, called and was advised someone would call me back, but that was over a week ago.

Can anyone help with my inquiry, and also feel free to help me expand my list.


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## SahBumNimRush

That list could grow very quickly.  What criteria are you using to compile the list?  Rank alone? Contributions to the art?  Fame? Fight record? Direct student of a prominent Korean GM?

I am familiar with everyone listed above, with the exception of GM Bert and Craig Kollars.


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## Spookey

SahBumNimRush said:


> That list could grow very quickly.  What criteria are you using to compile the list?  Rank alone? Contributions to the art?  Fame? Fight record? Direct student of a prominent Korean GM?
> 
> I am familiar with everyone listed above, with the exception of GM Bert and Craig Kollars.



I am interested in legitimate, American born Grandmasters who are practitioners of Taekwondo and who have obtained the rank of 9th Degree via means other than self promotion. I'll start another thread regarding opinions related to being promoted by peers and juniors.

The Kollars and GM Art Monroe are/where the heads of the USTA/ITA/Tiger Rock organizations.

I started compiling this list after my students requested I compile a family tree of TKD organizations to outline the splinters, factions, etc.


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## Earl Weiss

Spookey said:


> I am interested in legitimate, American born Grandmasters who are practitioners of Taekwondo .



The term   "Legitimate"  is loaded.    I will submit that Senior GM Sereff has now promoted 4 of his Seniors to 9th Dan,   They are GMs Winegar, Renee Seref, , Paul De Baca, and Louis Reyes.

Further GM Mel Steiner of Florida who may have been born out of the country but been in the USA I believe during the 4+ decades of his TKD career was also promoted to 9th by GM Nam Tae Hi.


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## Earl Weiss

One of he most Seniors long time in America but apparently notborn in the USA was the late Eugene Humesky of Michigan. Some web pages list him a s a 9th Dan in the ITF. This was nopt under Generlal  Choi or the original group but may have been under General Choi's son.


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## TrueJim

Spookey said:


> I started compiling this list after my students requested I compile a family tree of TKD organizations to outline the splinters, factions, etc.



I think this is a great project; I'd love to see the results! These "family trees" always wind up being remarkably non-tree-like too, with weird combinings, splittings, renaming, etc. Would looking only at *American* grandmasters be sufficient to create such a family tree?







TKD Panorama.png

Timeline of Taekwondo

List of Taekwondo Associations


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## Dirty Dog

I agree wholeheartedly with Master Weiss. Who determines legitimacy? You? Then I'm sure we'd all love to know what qualifies you to do so.
I think a family tree sort of thing would be very interesting. I also think it would be more of a briar patch than a tree, and virtually impossible to compile with anything resembling true completeness.


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## Jaeimseu

There are plenty of "self-promoted" guys out there. You simply throw a little money at a 9th Dan, usually a Korean one for perception of legitimacy, and they act as a kind of figurehead for your organization. You gain the ability to run your own show without sacrificing your ability to "test" and promote. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Spookey

Dirty Dog said:


> I agree wholeheartedly with Master Weiss. Who determines legitimacy? You? Then I'm sure we'd all love to know what qualifies you to do so.
> I think a family tree sort of thing would be very interesting. I also think it would be more of a briar patch than a tree, and virtually impossible to compile with anything resembling true completeness.



Pardon my lack of clarity concerning "legitimacy". I simply meant those who practice or have traditional Taekwondo roots of promotion (ie. Not interested in "head soke grand dragon hokey pokey" brands).


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## Dirty Dog

Spookey said:


> Pardon my lack of clarity concerning "legitimacy". I simply meant those who practice or have traditional Taekwondo roots of promotion (ie. Not interested in "head soke grand dragon hokey pokey" brands).



Which just uses more words to say the same thing. How do you define "traditional" in an art that only has a 60 year history? Given that the Kwan heads were all self-promoted, how are the promotions they made any more legitimate than those of other self-promoted individuals?


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## Spookey

Jaeimseu said:


> There are plenty of "self-promoted" guys out there. You simply throw a little money at a 9th Dan, usually a Korean one for perception of legitimacy, and they act as a kind of figurehead for your organization. You gain the ability to run your own show without sacrificing your ability to "test" and promote.
> 
> What would an ex
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk






Dirty Dog said:


> Which just uses more words to say the same thing. How do you define "traditional" in an art that only has a 60 year history? Given that the Kwan heads were all self-promoted, how are the promotions they made any more legitimate than those of other self-promoted individuals?



Considering the art is only 60 years old, it is quite easy to "legitimize"...you simple trace the roots backwards to an original Kwan.

If you claim a 9th Degree, in an existing art as young as TKDthere should be a verifiable lineage yes?


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## Spookey

Earl Weiss said:


> The term   "Legitimate"  is loaded.    I will submit that Senior GM Sereff has now promoted 4 of his Seniors to 9th Dan,   They are GMs Winegar, Renee Seref, , Paul De Baca, and Louis Reyes.
> 
> Further GM Mel Steiner of Florida who may have been born out of the country but been in the USA I believe during the 4+ decades of his TKD career was also promoted to 9th by GM Nam Tae Hi.



Master Weiss, was it GGM Nam that promoted GM Steiner to 9th or was it the ICTF council. I've quickly located the 8th Dan promotion from GGM Nam but no confirmation on the 9th.


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## Dirty Dog

Spookey said:


> Considering the art is only 60 years old, it is quite easy to "legitimize"...you simple trace the roots backwards to an original Kwan.
> 
> If you claim a 9th Degree, in an existing art as young as TKDthere should be a verifiable lineage yes?



So if you self-promote to 9th Dan (as the founders of the original Kwan did), you can then promote others to 9th Dan and they will be legitimate but you are not? That seems to be the criteria you're using...


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## Spookey

Dirty Dog said:


> So if you self-promote to 9th Dan (as the founders of the original Kwan did), you can then promote others to 9th Dan and they will be legitimate but you are not? That seems to be the criteria you're using...



When no criteria exists (pre-kwans) the founders created a criteria. I'm basing my "standard" off this existing criteria for an existing martial art.


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## Dirty Dog

Spookey said:


> When no criteria exists (pre-kwans) the founders created a criteria. I'm basing my "standard" off this existing criteria for an existing martial art.



A standard did exist, in the systems in which the Kwan founders trained (mostly shotokan...). 
So here's a guy who trained in an art, maybe to 1st Dan, maybe to 4th... then decided to leave, start his own school, and promoted himself to 9th Dan.
Is he legitimate?
First, by your rules, you'll have to figure out if I'm talking about one of the Kwan founders, or not.


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## Spookey

Dirty Dog said:


> A standard did exist, in the systems in which the Kwan founders trained (mostly shotokan...).
> So here's a guy who trained in an art, maybe to 1st Dan, maybe to 4th... then decided to leave, start his own school, and promoted himself to 9th Dan.
> Is he legitimate?
> First, by your rules, you'll have to figure out if I'm talking about one of the Kwan founders, or not.



Playing the game, it sounds as though you reference almost if not all the original Kwan heads. However, they did not promote themselves to 9th Dan in Shotokan, they created their own systems with unique identities.

I'm trying to make an apples to apples comparison. Bare in mind the "head/soke" clan can do as they please, I'm simply qualifying my original inquiry.

If I'm claiming rank in an existing art, should I have issue saying my 5th Dan promotion was authorized by... Seems easy enough!


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## Dirty Dog

Spookey said:


> Playing the game, it sounds as though you reference almost if not all the original Kwan heads. However, they did not promote themselves to 9th Dan in Shotokan, they created their own systems with unique identities.



They promoted themselves to 9th Dan in Tang Soo Do (or Tae Soo Do). Which is the Korean way of pronouncing the hanja for karate-do... 
I'm sure that everybody else who has split off to create their own system will tell you they've also "created their own systems with unique identities."



Spookey said:


> I'm trying to make an apples to apples comparison. Bare in mind the "head/soke" clan can do as they please, I'm simply qualifying my original inquiry.



I don't think I've ever seen the head of a Korean MA use the Japanese term "soke"... have you?
Nor have I seen Korean systems referred to as a "clan", only as a Kwan (which just means "school", after all).

So you haven't answered the question... why is it "legitimate" to self promote to 9th Dan if you're Korean, but not if you're American?


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## Earl Weiss

Spookey said:


> Master Weiss, was it GGM Nam that promoted GM Steiner to 9th or was it the ICTF council. I've quickly located the 8th Dan promotion from GGM Nam but no confirmation on the 9th.


This was from memory. IIRC GM Nam was the highest rank of the ICTF at the time so I listed him as the person granting the promotion but may be wrong.

FWIW Senior to GM Steiner is GM Walter Lang. Do not have the info about his promotion to 9th. (Should have included him in prior posts.   He was Senior in the USTF to all thsoe promoted to 9th by Sr. GM Sereff before GM Lang left the org.)


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## SahBumNimRush

I'm curious why you are only interested in 9th dans.  If a 7th dan has many students who have attained the rank of 5th dan or higher, would that not qualify him/her as a "grandmaster?"

Is this just to thin out the number of "American Grandmasters" in the list?  

I ask, because many have spent 40+ years in the arts, and have not been promoted to 9th dan for a myriad of reasons (many of which have little bearing on their contribution, skill level, number of students they have had promoted to "master" rank, etc.)

Regardless, this is your thread, I'm just curious about the criteria you are using.

Thanks.


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## Spookey

SahBumNimRush said:


> I'm curious why you are only interested in 9th dans.  If a 7th dan has many students who have attained the rank of 5th dan or higher, would that not qualify him/her as a "grandmaster?"
> 
> Is this just to thin out the number of "American Grandmasters" in the list?
> 
> I ask, because many have spent 40+ years in the arts, and have not been promoted to 9th dan for a myriad of reasons (many of which have little bearing on their contribution, skill level, number of students they have had promoted to "master" rank, etc.)
> 
> Regardless, this is your thread, I'm just curious about the criteria you are using.
> 
> Thanks.



For the sake of initial quantity control I am starting with 9th Dan. From there it will be easier to build down or verify up.

My thinking is if we can determine who promoted the 9th Dan, it will more quickly allow for those under them to be "validated" so to speak..

Example: If someone received promotion to 5th Dan from GGM Nam Tae Hi (date appropriate) we know the source of promotion. However, if someone says John Doe III promoted them to 9th Dan we would ask who is this John Doe III.

My question started honest enough and remains that way, I think someone else in the thread got bored in the early hours and wanted to entertain themselves so I played along


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## SahBumNimRush

Fair enough, like I said, it's your thread, I'm just trying to get some perspective on your thought process. 

In my neck of the woods, there aren't many American born 9th dans.  For instance, my SBN started TKD under our KJN in 1971.  Considering his skill level, knowledge, and time in the arts, he could easily be a 9th dan under KKW criteria.  However, our KJN has only promoted him to 7th dan, and he is the highest rank in our association under our KJN (who is a 9th dan).


For example:

GM Ki Whang KIM was one of very few 10 dans in the U.S.  

GM Albert Cheeks is listed as a 9th dan.  He was a famous student under Grandmaster Ki Whang Kim, albeit GM KIM never awarded any grade higher than 7th dan to my knowledge.  Of which he only awarded two:  Mitchell Bobrow and George Thanos.


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## Azulx

Spookey said:


> Those listed above were very easy to confirm, however I am having a hard time regarding GM Bert & Craig Kollars.
> 
> So far I have contacted the office organization FB page, obtained a telephone number for their HQ, called and was advised someone would call me back, but that was over a week ago.
> 
> Can anyone help with my inquiry, and also feel free to help me expand my list.



Mr. Spookey, this is my knowledge of the Kollars brothers an the ITA. My current head instructor is a former member of the ITA. His Master name was Frank Michael and His Master was GM Art Monroe, and GM Monroe's was the Kollars brothers. Monroe  and the Kollars brothers were former members of the ATA (American Taekwondo Association). They were all somewhere between 1st and 3rd dan. To my knowledge they created some time of council with their off-shoot of the ATA ( called it USTA, ITA, and later Tiger rock) and promoted through that way. I have friends who are former ITA members and have many negative things to say about the association. Whether you think the Kollars brothers are "legit"  is based solely on your own formulated criteria. To me despite all the negativity I have heard and read about them and the ITA, I believe they are legitimate GMs. They have dedicated an enormous amount of time to grow their associations and expand American Tae Kwon Do. As far as their skill goes, I have no idea, I have never seen them do anything.


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## Dirty Dog

Spookey said:


> My question started honest enough and remains that way, I think someone else in the thread got bored in the early hours and wanted to entertain themselves so I played along



No self-entertainment at all. You're setting yourself up as the arbiter of legitimacy, declaring some promotions 'illegitimate' and others (who were promoted exactly the same way) legitimate.
That smacks of hubris, and essentially makes the results of your project... illegitimate.


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## Azulx

@Spookey 

Actually here is GM Bert Kollars doing his 9th Degree Form


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## Balrog

Spookey said:


> I am interested in legitimate, American born Grandmasters who are practitioners of Taekwondo and who have obtained the rank of 9th Degree via means other than self promotion.


Last summer, Richard Reed became the first American born GM in the ATA.  Next July, he will be joined by Robert Allemeir and Bill Clark.


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## Miles

Ronald W. Rose (MI) and Brenda Sell (FL) are 9th dan from Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan.  Both are direct students of GM Park, Hae Man.


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## wade

Question, why does your interpretation of a grand master start at 9th Dan when the Kukkiwon starts "high dan" at 8th Dan. Also, if you look in some old TKD books, like the one written by Choi Tae Hong of Portland Oregon he states that grandmaster starts at 7th dan.


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## IcemanSK

wade said:


> Question, why does your interpretation of a grand master start at 9th Dan when the Kukkiwon starts "high dan" at 8th Dan. Also, if you look in some old TKD books, like the one written by Choi Tae Hong of Portland Oregon he states that grandmaster starts at 7th dan.



I think the OP is just focused on 9th Dan to include ITF style folks as well. But your point about 7th Dan being grandmaster, even Kukkiwon considers 7th Dan grandmaster.


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## Earl Weiss

You really need to look behind the Titles.  As a 6th Dan I hosted Nam Tae Hi and he referred to me as"Master" Being with the ITF I felt compelled to comment that I did not have this title and  I was not enthusiastic about correcting a Senior. Similarly   K.S. Shin who was an ITF Pioneer in Chicago , but long since left the group  although he had a nice visit with General Choi when he was here, and when  he asked me to do a pattern seminar for his students he referred to me as "Junior Granadmaster."  

In "Living The Martial Way" a book I recommend the Author addresses the issue of Titles being awarded to lower ranks in later years.


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## chrispillertkd

Earl Weiss said:


> One of he most Seniors long time in America but apparently notborn in the USA was the late Eugene Humesky of Michigan. Some web pages list him a s a 9th Dan in the ITF. This was nopt under Generlal  Choi or the original group but may have been under General Choi's son.



GM Humesky was a very senior proponent of the art and a very interesting individual. I had the opportunity to meet and talk with him personally a few times. While he held senior rank from several organizations such as the Chang Moo Kwan, Kukkiwon, and ITF he was not promoted to IX dan by the ITF under GM Choi, Jung Hwa.

Pax,

Chris


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## Earl Weiss

chrispillertkd said:


> GM Humesky was a very senior proponent of the art and a very interesting individual. I had the opportunity to meet and talk with him personally a few times. While he held senior rank from several organizations such as the Chang Moo Kwan, Kukkiwon, and ITF he was not promoted to IX dan by the ITF under GM Choi, Jung Hwa.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



Sir, . So if it was not the "ITF V" (Tran Quan Group)   ITF C (Son's Group) then it was ITF NK, or perhaps something else?   Any idea?


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## chrispillertkd

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, . So if it was not the "ITF V" (Tran Quan Group)   ITF C (Son's Group) then it was ITF NK, or perhaps something else?   Any idea?



Master Weiss, it was none of the three ITF groups.

Pax,

Chris


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## Brian R. VanCise

Yet Chris, if you go to the International Tae Kwon Do Federations site and type in Humesky under
the search you will see he has a 9th Dan or listed as IX.

see link:
Search and Verify ITF Members

He also has an honorary from the WTF

and of course so many more.

*I and many more people have actually seen his certificates in his house.*  He was so absorbed about being legitimate and having the proper credentials that it was taken to the extreme.  This man was a remarkable individual who personified honesty and integrity and went to great lengths to promote Tae Kwon Do.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Here is their profile:

EUGENE A. HUMESKY: profile
*Name:* EUGENE A. HUMESKY
*Membership Status:* Expired
*Achievements:* *IX Degree*   USA-9-1001
*Member of:* United States ITF (INO)

EUGENE A. HUMESKY has not added a biography

Here is a poor picture but shows the IX or 9th Degree


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## Brian R. VanCise

So laying that to rest based on the above yes Master Humesky as I have known him since I was 13 until his death is and would be on any list of American Tae Kwon Do Pioneers and 9th Dan's.   He was a true Grand Master...


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## Earl Weiss

Brian R. VanCise said:


> So laying that to rest based on the above yes Master Humesky as I have known him since I was 13 until his death is and would be on any list of American Tae Kwon Do Pioneers and 9th Dan's.   He was a true Grand Master...



Thank you fro the info.    I for one would hope that a membership status would be listed as something other than "Expired"  if the failure to pay dues or what ever was caused by death or disability.. but that's just me.


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## chrispillertkd

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yet Chris, if you go to the International Tae Kwon Do Federations site and type in Humesky under
> the search you will see he has a 9th Dan or listed as IX.
> 
> see link:
> Search and Verify ITF Members
> 
> He also has an honorary from the WTF
> 
> and of course so many more.
> 
> *I and many more people have actually seen his certificates in his house.*  He was so absorbed about being legitimate and having the proper credentials that it was taken to the extreme.  This man was a remarkable individual who personified honesty and integrity and went to great lengths to promote Tae Kwon Do.



Very interesting. GM Choi didn't promote anyone to IX dan until 2014 at the ITF WC's. Perhaps this is a posthumous award as I believe GM Humesky had already passed away then? As I stated he was certainly a senior proponent of the art and I don't doubt deserving of such a promotion. 

Could you tell me the date on his IX dan certificate? I'd be very interested as promotions like that in the ITF are very rare and I don't recall seeing mention of this one (which surely should have been announced along with the others).

Pax,

Chris


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## Brian R. VanCise

Chris, I do not have the certificate in my hand as I am in Las Vegas and they are in Michigan.  So I can't help you there.  However, he had it and has every single certificate he has ever claimed and I have seen them on his wall, etc.  *The man was a stickler for international recognition and went to the mat so to say to make sure his credential were beyond reproach!  *


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## chrispillertkd

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Chris, I do not have the certificate in my hand as I am in Las Vegas and they are in Michigan.  So I can't help you there.  However, he had it and has every single certificate he has ever claimed and I have seen them on his wall, etc.  *The man was a stickler for international recognition and went to the mat so to say to make sure his credential were beyond reproach!  *



Ah, I took your comment that you had seen his certificates to mean you had seen this one, too.

When the ITF promoted GM's Nicholls, Gallaraga, Ligay, and Tompkins there was an announcement posted on the ITF website. But I didn't see any for GM Humesky's promotion, and when someone else had asked about it before I checked the data base and he was then listed as an VIII dan, hence my question. Since the other gentlemen were promoted in 2014 and there was no announcement for GM Humesky before then I presume his was a posthumous award, which certainly doesn't take anything away from his accomplishments. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Brian R. VanCise

*I do not have the certificate in front of me*.  Master Humesky was one of the old guard having been doing this longer than many of the younger Grand Masters.  Obviously his appointment to 9th Dan happened and the case is closed!

Let's move on to the OP's orgional intent. and talk about all of the Tae Kwon Do Grand Masters and not just one.


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## Earl Weiss

chrispillertkd said:


> Ah, I took your comment that you had seen his certificates to mean you had seen this one, too.
> 
> When the ITF promoted GM's Nicholls, Gallaraga, Ligay, and Tompkins there was an announcement posted on the ITF website. ..............Since the other gentlemen were promoted in 2014 and there was no announcement for GM Humesky before then I presume his was a posthumous award, which certainly doesn't take anything away from his accomplishments.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



Mr. Spiller, FWIW GM Tomkins # is A-9-1000 and  GM Humesky is A-9-1001  So it would seem they were issued either on the same date or close to it.  So, if you Know GM Tompkins Date that would be a clue.


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## chrispillertkd

Earl Weiss said:


> Mr. Spiller, FWIW GM Tomkins # is A-9-1000 and  GM Humesky is A-9-1001  So it would seem they were issued either on the same date or close to it.  So, if you Know GM Tompkins Date that would be a clue.



Master Weiss, GM Tompkins was promoted at the same time as Grand Masters Nicholls, Ligay, and Galarraga  in July of 2014 at the ITF WC's. This was the year after GM Humesky passed away so given the date and the difference in dan numbers it seems quite likely that GM Humesky's IX dan was awarded posthumously. 

The only other IX dan awarded by GM Choi thus far has been to GM Lee, Won Il who was an early pioneer under Gen. Choi who spread Taekwon-Do to Spain. GM Choi recognized GM Lee with an official ITF IX dan in September of 2009. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Earl Weiss

Getting back to the OP, there are a number of Chang Hon / ITF stylists that have now been training consistently for 40 Plus years as an adult.  .   I expect that in the coming years and perhaps months many will reach 9th Dan thru various orgs. 

This is in all likely hood much longer than many Korean Pioneers trained to attain that rank.  For instance Han Cha Kyo's cert was k-8-6 in 1973.  So, he had perhaps been training a little over 20 years to that point.   Not sure when he got the 9th Dan but I am sure it was not 20 years later.


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## Wilde

I have a Grandmaster that looks legit. Senior Grandmaster Steven E. Travis 9th Dan, he was promoted from 5th to 9th by Woon Kyu Uhm and got his 1st to 4th black belt in the KTA through Grandmaster Edward Sell. This is what I know of him after digging through records.


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## Kinghercules

Wilde said:


> I have a Grandmaster that looks legit. Senior Grandmaster Steven E. Travis 9th Dan, he was promoted from 5th to 9th by Woon Kyu Uhm and got his 1st to 4th black belt in the KTA through Grandmaster Edward Sell. This is what I know of him after digging through records.



The KTA (Korean Taekwondo Association) dont promote ppl tho.  You must mean the WTF.  They have only promoted two ppl in the past; Ki Whang Kim and one other guy whom I cant recall right now.


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## Kinghercules

Spookey said:


> Good Day,
> 
> I am doing some research related to American Grandmasters of Taekwondo.
> 
> American Grandmasters List:
> 
> Edward Sell - GM Uhm, Won Kyu
> 
> Charles Seriff - GM Choi, Hong Hi
> 
> Robert Hardin - GGM Nam & GM Kong, Young Il
> 
> Scott McNeely - GGM Nam & GM Kong, Young Il
> 
> Those listed above were very easy to confirm, however I am having a hard time regarding GM Bert & Craig Kollars.
> 
> So far I have contacted the office organization FB page, obtained a telephone number for their HQ, called and was advised someone would call me back, but that was over a week ago.
> 
> Can anyone help with my inquiry, and also feel free to help me expand my list.



As I was told when I was in Taiwan..."Erybody and their mama is a Grandmaster in America."  LOL!

Which is so true.  As you posted above Edward Sell (RIP), his wife Brenda Sell and his son are grandmaster....all in the same organization.  LOL!


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## Kinghercules

SahBumNimRush said:


> Fair enough, like I said, it's your thread, I'm just trying to get some perspective on your thought process.
> 
> In my neck of the woods, there aren't many American born 9th dans.  For instance, my SBN started TKD under our KJN in 1971.  Considering his skill level, knowledge, and time in the arts, he could easily be a 9th dan under KKW criteria.  However, our KJN has only promoted him to 7th dan, and he is the highest rank in our association under our KJN (who is a 9th dan).
> 
> 
> For example:
> 
> GM Ki Whang KIM was one of very few 10 dans in the U.S.
> 
> GM Albert Cheeks is listed as a 9th dan.  He was a famous student under Grandmaster Ki Whang Kim, albeit GM KIM never awarded any grade higher than 7th dan to my knowledge.  Of which he only awarded two:  Mitchell Bobrow and George Thanos.



From what I was told....thats not true.  It was Jimmy Roberts Jr and Albert Cheeks who got there 7th from GM Kim.  EVERYONE else Ki Whang sent to Heny Cho to get promoted beyond 4th Dan.


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## chrispillertkd

Kinghercules said:


> The KTA (Korean Taekwondo Association) dont promote ppl tho.  You must mean the WTF.  They have only promoted two ppl in the past; Ki Whang Kim and one other guy whom I cant recall right now.



The WTF doesn't promote people though. Perhaps you mean the Kukkiwon.

Pax,

Chris


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## Dirty Dog

Kinghercules said:


> The KTA (Korean Taekwondo Association) dont promote ppl tho.



Well, actually... in a way, they do. At least indirectly. The KTA founded the Kukkiwon, and is still the "over sight" group between the KKW and the South Korean Government (at least in theory). Prior to the founding of the KKW, the KTA may have promoted people directly. I'm not sure, though, and I think it more likely that at that time promotions were from within the individual kwan.



Kinghercules said:


> You must mean the WTF.



The WTF is an organization that promotes the sport of Olympic taekwondo (as opposed to the art of TKD). Not people. They have no curriculum, no schools, and award no rank (other than in the sense of national and international rankings based on tourney results).


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## SahBumNimRush

Not to muddy the waters, but I'm pretty sure both the WTF and the KTA awarded dan certificates in the past.  To my understanding they no longer award dan certificates.

"The first official KTA _dan_ promotion test was held on 11 November 1962.[2] The KTA continued awarding _dan_ ranks for several years,[c] but handed over direct _dan_ promotion responsibilities to either the WTF in April 1976, according to a _Black Belt_ magazine report,[31] or to Kukkiwon on 5 February 1980, according to historians Won Sik Kang and Kyong Myong Lee.[2] Since then, however, some _dan_ ranks have apparently still been awarded under the authority of the KTA (e.g., S. S. Lee's 9th _dan_ from the Jidokwan, KTA, in 1993).[32]*" *

*~*Wikipedia


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## SahBumNimRush

Kinghercules said:


> From what I was told....thats not true.  It was Jimmy Roberts Jr and Albert Cheeks who got there 7th from GM Kim.  EVERYONE else Ki Whang sent to Heny Cho to get promoted beyond 4th Dan.




I can't remember where I had read that, and obviously it is outside of my association.  I will admit you are much closer to the source than I am on this topic. The only rank I know for certain is Master Critzos' 7th dan, which was awarded by my KJN, GM Sok Ho KANG.


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## Dirty Dog

SahBumNimRush said:


> Not to muddy the waters, but I'm pretty sure both the WTF and the KTA awarded dan certificates in the past.  To my understanding they no longer award dan certificates.
> 
> "The first official KTA _dan_ promotion test was held on 11 November 1962.[2] The KTA continued awarding _dan_ ranks for several years,[c] but handed over direct _dan_ promotion responsibilities to either the WTF in April 1976, according to a _Black Belt_ magazine report,[31] or to Kukkiwon on 5 February 1980, according to historians Won Sik Kang and Kyong Myong Lee.[2] Since then, however, some _dan_ ranks have apparently still been awarded under the authority of the KTA (e.g., S. S. Lee's 9th _dan_ from the Jidokwan, KTA, in 1993).[32]*" *
> 
> *~*Wikipedia



In the chaotic early days, lots of odd things happened. But any rank awarded by the WTF these days is purely honorary. Which means as much as rank from Ashida Kim.


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## SahBumNimRush

Dirty Dog said:


> In the chaotic early days, lots of odd things happened. But any rank awarded by the WTF these days is purely honorary. Which means as much as rank from Ashida Kim.




No argument from me there.  I just wanted to point out that there are folks that have legitimately ranked through the KTA and WTF, albeit only for a brief time back in the mid 70's and 80's.


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## Kinghercules

chrispillertkd said:


> The WTF doesn't promote people though. Perhaps you mean the Kukkiwon.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Yes thats what I meant.


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## Kinghercules

SahBumNimRush said:


> I can't remember where I had read that, and obviously it is outside of my association.  I will admit you are much closer to the source than I am on this topic. The only rank I know for certain is Master Critzos' 7th dan, which was awarded by my KJN, GM Sok Ho KANG.


Yes thats right.  But coming from Ki Whang only Jimmy and Cheeks.


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## Kinghercules

Hey did yall determine what the standards going to be in saying who is legitimate and who's not?

Ive seen a few of you all taking about this a few post back but did see if you all came to a conclusion.


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## Dirty Dog

Kinghercules said:


> Hey did yall determine what the standards going to be in saying who is legitimate and who's not?
> 
> Ive seen a few of you all taking about this a few post back but did see if you all came to a conclusion.



The conclusion by the OP was that he would be the arbiter of legitimacy.
That's sort of the problem with his whole idea...


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## Earl Weiss

Kinghercules said:


> Hey did yall determine what the standards going to be in saying who is legitimate and who's not?
> 
> Ive seen a few of you all taking about this a few post back but did see if you all came to a conclusion.



Your legit if you got a cert from the Intergalactic TAK UR DO    Federation on the wall saying you are 9th Degree /  Dan/ Slipknot or higher.


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## Kinghercules

Earl Weiss said:


> Your legit if you got a cert from the Intergalactic TAK UR DO    Federation on the wall saying you are 9th Degree /  Dan/ Slipknot or higher.


LOL!
You silly!


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## Earl Weiss

Mine says: Forever Renouned, Authentic, Ultimate, Deity,   -- Grandmaster - 12th Knot.


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## Wilde

Kinghercules said:


> The KTA (Korean Taekwondo Association) dont promote ppl tho.  You must mean the WTF.  They have only promoted two ppl in the past; Ki Whang Kim and one other guy whom I cant recall right now.


My apologies, the US Chung Do Kwan Association for 1st and 2nd and KTA for 3rd and 4th.


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## Wilde

I believe the legitimacy of a Grandmaster should be set by who they were promoted by, what they have done, and how they've done it.


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## Kinghercules

Wilde said:


> My apologies, the US Chung Do Kwan Association for 1st and 2nd and KTA for 3rd and 4th.


Errrrrr.....no.....I have to stop you there.
I know the US Chung Do Kwan Associtate and I believe that a person has to train directly under someone to claim legitimacy and they don't do that at the USCDK.

Woon Kyu Uhm didn't train Steven Travis. Steven made a video sent it in and Uhm sighed to papers and sent them to him. To me that's not legit.

Anyone coming from the USCDK is questionable.


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## Kinghercules

Wilde said:


> I believe the legitimacy of a Grandmaster should be set by who they were promoted by, what they have done, and how they've done it.


Hmmm....question; Since your profile pic is Steve Travis' patch, Im assuming that you know him, can you find out which 9 national championships he won and when?


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## Wilde

Kinghercules said:


> Errrrrr.....no.....I have to stop you there.
> I know the US Chung Do Kwan Associtate and I believe that a person has to train directly under someone to claim legitimacy and they don't do that at the USCDK.
> 
> Woon Kyu Uhm didn't train Steven Travis. Steven made a video sent it in and Uhm sighed to papers and sent them to him. To me that's not legit.
> 
> Anyone coming from the USCDK is questionable.



Many of his records, trophies, and certificates along with others students including my father's records were lost when the second gym he owned caught on fire. Travis gets upset when you talk about the fire, so I have limited information. What I show is what I know and I know I may be wrong about the KTA, but the information is very limited. 
I do know however that he went to AAU, USTU, and KTA national tournaments.
1976: He won the KTA National.
1977: He won the UCDKA National and the Us National Tang Soo Do. 
1978: He won the UCDKA National, Ji Do Kwan Association national, and the USTU National. 
1983: He won USTU State. 
1990: He won AAU Michigan State. 
1999: He won the ATF National in the Masters Division.

Obviously Travis made an Association of his own, stopped majorly training and teaches sometimes. The man is old and beat down by surgeries, He can't do what he could twenty years ago. I've seen videos of him in the 80s, he was an animal. Anyway, he learned and made his 7th to 9th forms the way Woon Kyu Uhm wanted them. Now I'm not going to claim he's the best Grandmaster ever no one is, but I have learned many good things from him and his masters. I'm not here to argue, I just want to put a good association out there.

I have gone to USCDKA classes and trained with instructors from USCDKA. They are decent martial artists, their forms are okay and they don't have attitudes, so I don't have a problem with them or their certification.


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## Kinghercules

Wilde said:


> Many of his records, trophies, and certificates along with others students including my father's records were lost when the second gym he owned caught on fire. Travis gets upset when you talk about the fire, so I have limited information. What I show is what I know and I know I may be wrong about the KTA, but the information is very limited.
> I do know however that he went to AAU, USTU, and KTA national tournaments.
> 1976: He won the KTA National.
> 1977: He won the UCDKA National and the Us National Tang Soo Do.
> 1978: He won the UCDKA National, Ji Do Kwan Association national, and the USTU National.
> 1983: He won USTU State.
> 1990: He won AAU Michigan State.
> 1999: He won the ATF National in the Masters Division.
> 
> Obviously Travis made an Association of his own, stopped majorly training and teaches sometimes. The man is old and beat down by surgeries, He can't do what he could twenty years ago. I've seen videos of him in the 80s, he was an animal. Anyway, he learned and made his 7th to 9th forms the way Woon Kyu Uhm wanted them. Now I'm not going to claim he's the best Grandmaster ever no one is, but I have learned many good things from him and his masters. I'm not here to argue, I just want to put a good association out there.
> 
> I have gone to USCDKA classes and trained with instructors from USCDKA. They are decent martial artists, their forms are okay and they don't have attitudes, so I don't have a problem with them or their certification.



Ok I understand.  Like I said I already know how USCDKA works and what it takes for yall to get a certificate from Master Uhm.   I just dont agree with that process.  My teacher was Ki Whang Kim and he didnt believe in promoting ppl that he didnt train.  So thats where my thinking comes from.  For me it dont make sense to be promoted by proxy when you didnt train directly with the person.


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## chrispillertkd

Master Humesky will be posthumously awarded a IX dan by the ITF under GM Choi, Jung Hwa on June 11, 2016. Master Robert Wheatley will be making a presentation of the certificate to GM Humesky's widow on behalf of GM Choi.

Pax,

Chris


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## Dirty Dog

Kinghercules said:


> Ok I understand.  Like I said I already know how USCDKA works and what it takes for yall to get a certificate from Master Uhm.   I just dont agree with that process.  My teacher was Ki Whang Kim and he didnt believe in promoting ppl that he didnt train.  So thats where my thinking comes from.  For me it dont make sense to be promoted by proxy when you didnt train directly with the person.



So you disagree with all Kukkiwon promotions?
Kukkiwon Masters "recommend" students for promotion (that's what it says on the paperwork) and the actual promotion must be approved by the Kukkiwon president.
Now, this is certainly a _pro forma_ approval, but it's still true that unless you're being trained by the President of the KKW, you're being promoted by someone other than your instructor.


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## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> So you disagree with all Kukkiwon promotions?
> Kukkiwon Masters "recommend" students for promotion (that's what it says on the paperwork) and the actual promotion must be approved by the Kukkiwon president.
> Now, this is certainly a _pro forma_ approval, but it's still true that unless you're being trained by the President of the KKW, you're being promoted by someone other than your instructor.



This is very true. For me it's all about a chain of trust. Kukkiwon trusts me as a Certified Poom/Dan Examiner and Master Instructor to only recommend candidates that I have tested and were successful. So they are certifying that they trust me to be honest and apply the correct standards.  When I issue Changmookwan dan certificates, it's because Grandmaster Kim Joong-Young trusts me to apply the standards.

My students may prefer certificates signed by me, as I'm the only one out of GM Kim and President Oh that has seen them, but if they go to another dojang (particularly in another country) my signature may not mean much.  The fact that they have some standardised certificates, ratified by a world body, goes some way to say that their rank is genuine.


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## Earl Weiss

chrispillertkd said:


> Master Humesky will be posthumously awarded a IX dan by the ITF under GM Choi, Jung Hwa on June 11, 2016. Master Robert Wheatley will be making a presentation of the certificate to GM Humesky's widow on behalf of GM Choi.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



Mr. Spiller,    How does that work with the cert. #s and dates set forth in posts # 41, and 42?


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## chrispillertkd

Earl Weiss said:


> Mr. Spiller,    How does that work with the cert. #s and dates set forth in posts # 41, and 42?



Master Weiss, as far as I can see there is no conflict at all. GM Tompkins has a lower certificate number because he was promoted before GM Humesky will be. The actual time between people being promoted to the same rank doesn't really matter since anyone promoted after GM Tompkins would have a lower number and there simply haven't been any other Americans promoted to IX dan by GM Choi since 2014. (The ITF has always had a very rare rate of prmotions to senior ranks compared to, say, the KKW, so having a total of _two _American IX dans isn't all that strange, IMNSHO.)

I received information that GM Humesky would be posthumously awarded his IX dan this coming weekend last week when my instructor forwarded the information to me. Master Wheatley will be teaching a seminar for some of GM Humesky's students in conjunction with presenting his dan certificate to GM Humseky's widow and I spoke briefly with Master Wheatley about the upcoming promotion at dinner on Sunday evening.

Pax,

Chris


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## Earl Weiss

chrispillertkd said:


> Master Weiss, as far as I can see there is no conflict at all. GM Tompkins has a lower certificate number because he was promoted before GM Humesky will be....................
> 
> I received information that GM Humesky would be posthumously awarded his IX dan this coming weekend ......../QUOTE]
> 
> Please give my regards to Master Wheatley. I would expect he would be eligible for 9th Dan anytime now.    I was confused because the website listed GM Humesky for some time now, yet it seems the promotion is yet to happen.


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## chrispillertkd

Master Weiss, I will definitely give Master Wheatley your regards the next time I see him. He is a true gentleman.

I think the issue with the website is simply a matter of people in the ITF administration updating the website before things were "official" similarly to how someone had updated GM Humesky's website before he was awarded IX dan from the ITF. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Brian R. VanCise

Here is a photo from the IX Dan presentation for Tae Kwon Do Grand Master Humesky:






Truly one of the greatest pioneers of Tae Kwon Do in the United States and the world!  He was responsible for helping so many people learn the art that he loved!


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## Kinghercules

Dirty Dog said:


> So you disagree with all Kukkiwon promotions?
> Kukkiwon Masters "recommend" students for promotion (that's what it says on the paperwork) and the actual promotion must be approved by the Kukkiwon president.
> Now, this is certainly a _pro forma_ approval, but it's still true that unless you're being trained by the President of the KKW, you're being promoted by someone other than your instructor.


Yes.  To me thats just a scam to make money.  You pay the amount of whatever level you're testing for. So 6th Dan is $600.  This is what Ive been told.  And then you have some Koreans here in the States scaming ppl just to make money.  I was talking to someone the other day about the KKW and they use to work for this school called Tiger Den Taekwondo over here in VA.  These guys charge their students for KKW certificates but never actually order them from Korea cause they know that eventually the student will stop coming or forget about it.  So they just pocket the money.

I can understand the reason to have the KKW and the ITF.  It makes it so there is a standard from traveling from school to school.  ESPECAILLY nowa days when any Joe Schmoe is opening up schools and teaching.

Did you know that ppl dont have to be black belts to teach?

Back in the day aint no way you could run a school as an under belt!

So to get back to the topic (LOL).....I think if you gonna have a Master's certificate from the KKW then you should've trained at the KKW for whateve amount of time is acquired.  Like Yoshikan Aikido.  They have an instructors program that you can do which involves intense training for one year.  Then you get certified.  I think the KKW should have that.  There should be some kind of intense training for a person to get 5th Dan.  Instead of just sending in paper work and paying a fee.  Thats just my thinking and Im among those that believe not everyone and their mama should be getting promoted beyond 5th Dan.  But hey thats just me.


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## andyjeffries

Kinghercules said:


> Yes.  To me thats just a scam to make money.  You pay the amount of whatever level you're testing for. So 6th Dan is $600.  This is what Ive been told.



Kukkiwon charges $350.



Kinghercules said:


> Did you know that ppl dont have to be black belts to teach?



Where are you referring to?  To open your own club in the UK you do.  You won't get insurance as an instructor without it (and all the venues, at least in my area, require proof of that). Of course as any grade you could teach your friends in your back garden, but you won't officially be a "martial arts instructor".


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## Kinghercules

andyjeffries said:


> Kukkiwon charges $350.
> 
> 
> 
> Where are you referring to?  To open your own club in the UK you do.  You won't get insurance as an instructor without it (and all the venues, at least in my area, require proof of that). Of course as any grade you could teach your friends in your back garden, but you won't officially be a "martial arts instructor".


Oh ok...well I dont know.  I never cared about getting a certificate from the KKW.

There a lot ppl that do that here in the States.  The US Chung Do Kwan Association is one  and I always see ads for ppl to teach saying you dont have to be a black belt.  But Ive met ppl that were given classes to run on their own with their own location and they were Gup belts working on their black belts for the US Chung Do Kwan Association.


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## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> Where are you referring to?  To open your own club in the UK you do.  You won't get insurance as an instructor without it (and all the venues, at least in my area, require proof of that). Of course as any grade you could teach your friends in your back garden, but you won't officially be a "martial arts instructor".



So the UK doesn't allow instruction in arts that don't use a belt system?

Not that it matters anyway. I'll just pop off to my office and print myself a couple eleventy-first Dan Grand Poo-bah certificates. Or buy one from any of the many places that sell them online.


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## SahBumNimRush

andyjeffries said:


> Kukkiwon charges $350.
> 
> 
> 
> Where are you referring to?  To open your own club in the UK you do.  You won't get insurance as an instructor without it (and all the venues, at least in my area, require proof of that). Of course as any grade you could teach your friends in your back garden, but you won't officially be a "martial arts instructor".



While this doesn't really pertain to the OP, I will throw in my .02.  When my father was a 3rd geup (1987), our 3 black belt instructors all quit.  My father was the next highest rank in the school at the time, and he took over running our small branch school.  We traveled 45 miles down the road twice per week to our instructors' instructor's branch school for our education, and brought that material back to our school.  

While this is certainly not the norm, it did work out in our case, and we developed and grew the school from there.


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## andyjeffries

SahBumNimRush said:


> While this doesn't really pertain to the OP, I will throw in my .02.  When my father was a 3rd geup (1987), our 3 black belt instructors all quit.  My father was the next highest rank in the school at the time, and he took over running our small branch school.  We traveled 45 miles down the road twice per week to our instructors' instructor's branch school for our education, and brought that material back to our school.
> 
> While this is certainly not the norm, it did work out in our case, and we developed and grew the school from there.



It's not to say that it doesn't happen nor any judgement on whether it should or if it would work out for the best; it was more pointing out that the poster used US rules/norm without stating that, and that this is an international forum ;-)


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## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> So the UK doesn't allow instruction in arts that don't use a belt system?
> 
> Not that it matters anyway. I'll just pop off to my office and print myself a couple eleventy-first Dan Grand Poo-bah certificates. Or buy one from any of the many places that sell them online.



Venues don't allow instruction without insurance, you can't get insurance without proving your instructional certification (which in the UK for Taekwondo, as we're in the Taekwondo board, is a minimum of a 1st Dan).  I'm sure if you were doing Systema or something (I don't know any non-belt systems), then someone would certify you as competent to teach, that would be required to gain insurance.


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## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> Venues don't allow instruction without insurance, you can't get insurance without proving your instructional certification (which in the UK for Taekwondo, as we're in the Taekwondo board, is a minimum of a 1st Dan).  I'm sure if you were doing Systema or something (I don't know any non-belt systems), then someone would certify you as competent to teach, that would be required to gain insurance.



Well, pick pretty much any traditional Chinese MA. No belts. No Menkyo system such as some Japanese arts. And although I'm no expert, being allowed to teach, in at least some cases, just means your instructor has said "go ahead and teach." So I'm guessing that the UK would require that teach to go ahead and print out something saying "go ahead and teach."
So the obvious question... how does the UK decide if that piece of paper is worth anything? I mean... Ashida Kim...


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## chrispillertkd

Master Weiss, Master Wheatley was just promoted to IX dan Grand Master by Grand Master Choi, Jung Hwa at the current ITF World Championships in England.

Pax,

Chris


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## Earl Weiss

chrispillertkd said:


> Master Weiss, Master Wheatley was just promoted to IX dan Grand Master by Grand Master Choi, Jung Hwa at the current ITF World Championships in England.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Well deserved.    Now that would be another topic. Irish born Grandmasters?   Pass along my congratulations.


----------

