# Chronic back issues and required techniques



## Makalakumu (Feb 23, 2006)

In TSD, at the dan level, there are a couple of required techniques that one needs to practice alot in order to be able to perform a couple of very difficult breaks.

1.  One of them is san bal ahp cha nut gi.  This is a jumping simultaineous double front kick.  
2.  And the other is eedan dubal ahp cha nut gi.  This is double front kicking in the air in succession.

The first thing I want to say is that I know that there is absolutely no practical value for these kicks.  However, they are traditional in the sense that scores of second and third dans have performed them with success and they regularly make these breaks.  

For me, this has not been the case.  My athletic abilities lie elsewhere.  Yet, I have still have been practicing diligently because I want to meet the requirements.  Here is the problem.  These kicks have started to cause me chronic back pain.  I don't know what it is with my body in particular, but lately practicing these kicks highly inflames my lower back.  

In fact, lately, I've been suffering from this so much that I have been unable to practice anything...much less bend down or walk easily.  I'm going to see the doctor tomorrow about this and I'm afraid of what he'll say.  I hope that my teacher would be accomodating to any advice from my doctor, but I also don't want to come across as a whiner who is just trying to weasel out of something difficult.  

If you look at me, it would seem that I would be the last person to suffer from this.  I really am in good shape and I have a lot of physical ability.  Yet, I'm sure this is a real problem and I'm not sure what to do.  I want to continue doing TSD, but I also don't want to compromise my health.  

Has anyone else faced this problem?  What did you do?  I'm not looking for medical advice, I'm just hoping that someone else can understand this dilemma and perhaps shed some light on the situation for me.

upnorthkyosa


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## terryl965 (Feb 23, 2006)

I would suggest seeing a doctor or chiropator for the problem may be more serious than you think.
Terry


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## michaeledward (Feb 23, 2006)

When I was much younger, I managed to run myself over with my car. In that process, I damaged my lower back pretty badly. Last weekend, I couldn't get out of bed without crippling pain.

This has been an on-again-off-again issue for me. When I was coaching my daughters basketball team, several years back, I knocked myself out for a couple of months.

I have tried medication (anti-inflamatories), chiropractic, and accupuncture. But truthfully, I think the only thing that helps is time. Although accupuncture was, oddly, restful. 

My suggestions is to be aware of your back. Warm up thoroughly. Stretch Regularly. Make sure your chairs are a good height. Get a lumbar support for your car. And take it easy when your back is acting up.

My work outs over the last week have been much more gentle than usual. And I expect I will continue to have to baby my back for another four to six weeks. 

Go Carefully, you only get one back, and you're going to need it for the rest of your life.


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## Lisa (Feb 23, 2006)

Doctor, chiropractor, physiotherapy and perhaps some drug therapy will probably help immensely.

Sounds like a pinched nerve.  Sometimes it takes a combination of the things I stated above to help relieve the pain.  Glad you are going to see a doctor about it.  Perhaps some drug therapy to ease the pain and some physiotherapy along with simple exercises to help stretch the area will benefit you immensely.  My husband is going through a similar experience and has finally sought out medical advice.  Physiotherapy combined with a muscle relaxant and pain killer is helping him improve immensely.  The pain has been so bad that he hasn't even picked up his rifle to shoot in about three weeks...he must be in pain if he is willing to miss competitions and practices.

Pinched nerves can become chronic and are excruciating if not taken care of.  Get to the doctor, follow their advice and recovery can be obtained.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 23, 2006)

I guess the biggest thing that I'm worried about is whether or not the techniques I described above are causing the pain.  If they are, that really presents an obstacle to my goal of testing for my 3rd dan.  These techniques are required at the test and I need to practice them...but I think (intuitively know) that practicing them is hurting my back.  This is what I'm going to talk to the doctor about tomorrow.


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## Shirt Ripper (Feb 23, 2006)

You could be exceeding your bodies ROM.  Meaning your hips, lower back are tight.  A muscles response to "overstretching" is a contraction to avoid injury.  This process itself can cause minor (or not so minor) injuries.  Along this same line would be the pinched nerve and a variety of other options.

How is your flexibility (dynamic and otherwise)?  What do you normally do for this?


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## Flying Crane (Feb 23, 2006)

listen to your body.  Is rank important enough to possibly cause lasting damage?  Like everyone said, get a thorough medical evaluation to determine the problem, then reasses what you are doing.

Perhaps a waiver can be issued for these particular techniques.  Seems reasonable to me, if everything else is good but these couple of things that have no useful value except for creating a difficulty factor in the test, maybe they can make an exception.  I don't see any reason to insist that someone do something that is causing an injury (assuming your medical evaluation determines this is true).


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## Makalakumu (Feb 23, 2006)

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> You could be exceeding your bodies ROM. Meaning your hips, lower back are tight. A muscles response to "overstretching" is a contraction to avoid injury. This process itself can cause minor (or not so minor) injuries. Along this same line would be the pinched nerve and a variety of other options.
> 
> How is your flexibility (dynamic and otherwise)? What do you normally do for this?


 
I'm very flexible.  I can almost drop down into the splits when warmed up.  Typically, I try to break a sweat before I stretch and then I use lots of yoga-like motions to work on flexability.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 23, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> (assuming your medical evaluation determines this is true).


 
I've practiced these techniques for about five years and it started off fine.  Slowly, though, my back started acting up.  Lately, everytime I've practiced them, I've had some pretty major pain...with this last time causing me to go and see a doctor.  I'm not totally sure that these techniques are causing my pain, but I'll try and be as forthcoming as possible with my training.  I'm actually going to see a doctor who specializes in sports medicine.  I feel that I can get the best advice from that.  

I'll post about the results.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 23, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I've practiced these techniques for about five years and it started off fine. Slowly, though, my back started acting up. Lately, everytime I've practiced them, I've had some pretty major pain...with this last time causing me to go and see a doctor. I'm not totally sure that these techniques are causing my pain, but I'll try and be as forthcoming as possible with my training. I'm actually going to see a doctor who specializes in sports medicine. I feel that I can get the best advice from that.
> 
> I'll post about the results.


 
Yeah, this is the best route.  My comment was based on the thought that the problem may actually be something else, but it shows up when you do these techniques.  If that is determined, and the problem is eliminated, then of course you could go back to training these again.


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## TigerWoman (Feb 23, 2006)

Sounds like my problem but a different body part was in my way.  For 2nd dan I had a choice between three breaks.  Originally, the master did a jumpback through 2/jump spin heel-2 fingers 1 bd. on the other foot/one after the other, for his test at 2nd.  But he gave the choice between that break and the one you are up against, double front kick same time-at least to waist level.  The other option was a flying side kick, two boards one held at head level the other at chest. 

Well, I had practiced every way I could, more crunches, etc. for abs, more squats for jumping ability, besides just practicing the actual jumping to paddles.  By the time I got past 1st dan, my knees were going bad.  But I practiced the jump spin heel combo for a year at least 3-5 times a week until I ached. (besides all the other jump kicks I had to do). I took 2-3 Advils and practiced. I didn't get the break done during the test, supposedly he gives extra time until you do the requirement with him looking on.  I bought about 200 boards and went through most of them.  After breaking the bottom two, I cracked the top board three times but not apart.  He wouldn't give it to me as a break. 

What I am saying is, we all have our weaknesses but I think there also should be standards for 2nd dan.  You can either take pain killers and do what I did, just practice the heck out of it or go meet with your instructor/testor and ask for an alternate kick. After two years of this kick, I threw in the towel and asked him for an alternative kick.  After all my knee was terribly unstable to come down on the side that I needed to, beside I had to kick with it first, and it is bone to bone, no cartilage, so each time I jumped pain shot up even with Advil.  Either way, if you have back pain, it will have to be dealt with pain meds.  Not a fun test and potentially could hurt your back more-pretty dangerous.  Yes, a chiropractor could help you-maybe, or possibly like one in our class, a 3rd dan, had worse damage from manipulation by a chiropractor.  Best to see a medical doctor first.  

At one point, I decided not to punish my knees anymore and not go for another stripe on my belt. Because it just gets worse doing the jumping.  But you might be able to find a solution for your back before it gets worse.
Good luck!  TW


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## Flying Crane (Feb 23, 2006)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> You can either take pain killers and do what I did, just practice the heck out of it or go meet with your instructor/testor and ask for an alternate kick.
> 
> Either way, if you have back pain, it will have to be dealt with pain meds. Not a fun test and potentially could hurt your back more-pretty dangerous. Yes, a chiropractor could help you-maybe, or possibly like one in our class, a 3rd dan, had worse damage from manipulation by a chiropractor. Best to see a medical doctor first.


 
When it comes to the back, there could be something like a slipped disk that might still be fixable but could become very severe if pushed.  For this kind of thing, I feel that pushing thru and masking it with pain meds could be a serious mistake.  

See your doctor and chiropractor, find out what is wrong, and then decide the appropriate course of action.

*LISTEN TO YOUR BODY.  IT IS TELLING YOU SOMETHING!  WHAT YOU DO TO DEAL WITH THIS PROBLEM MAY AFFECT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.*


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## Makalakumu (Feb 24, 2006)

I went to the doctor today and a chiropractor.  Both specialize in sports medicine (they were at the same clinic).

We started by analyzing the symptoms and then progressed to doing a bunch of tests...which included x-rays.  It turns out that my spine is curved abnormally at the pelvis and that there is substantial sacralization of the lowest vertebrae.  This means that the bone is partially fused to my sacram.  Both of these were probably congenital according to the experts.  

When we analyzed my training, the techniques that led to the pain were determined to be the causing factor in it.

Here is the bad news.  There is no way to practice these techniques without further pain.  Further, because of the way my spine is structure, the impact of landing these techniques would cause force moments that will very likely cause lasting damage.  What they said is that I risk building up layers of scar tissue on the right side of my pelvis where my sciatic nerve comes down.  If this condition progesses, it will cause nearly constant sciatic pain as I grow older.  As it stands now, I'm going to have to get special shoes to treat this or the same thing will happen, only slower.  

This is very frustrating.  I know what needs to be done, but I feel like I'm giving up...and that is not in my nature.  The doctor said that I could possibly where special shoes while practicing, but there would only be a slight chance of success...in that it may reduce the amount of pain the techniques cause me.  

I'm going back in on monday for some further treatments and measurements for shoes.  It's kind of scary to find out problems like this.  I really did not expect to find out all of this.  In fact, I was hoping that it was all in my head.  I suppose, it could have been alot worse, however, it is still disconcerting.

upnorthyosa


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## Shirt Ripper (Feb 24, 2006)

I once knew a hammer thrower with a problem strikingly similar to this.

You are right, it could be a lot worse.  You've got the option of dealing with it...


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## Kacey (Feb 24, 2006)

That's a really hard thing to have to hear, and harder to have to come to terms with. 

Given that you have a medical diagnosis, what are the chances that you could demonstrate a different break that is equally difficult but not going to cause you pain, and possibly disability, for life?  In the association I belong to, there are several breaks available at each black belt level, and it is up to the student and instructor to choose the correct break to demonstrate the student's abilities.  Exceptions are also made - for example, students whose livelihood depends on their hands (such as doctors) are not allowed to do hand breaks, but perform an additional technical foot break instead.  Is something like this a possibility?


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