# Assaults on cops rise.



## Bob Hubbard (Dec 28, 2010)

Posted on KenpoTalk, importing here.



> Here's an article that should be of interest to some.
> 
> ATLANTA  Two officers in a remote Alaska town were ambushed as they  chatted on a street. Two California deputies were killed by an arson  suspect with a high-powered rifle as they tried to serve him a warrant.  Two other officers doing anti-drug work were gunned down by men along a  busy Arkansas highway.
> These so-called cluster killings of more than one officer helped make  2010 a particularly dangerous year for law enforcement. Deaths in the  line of duty jumped 37 percent to about 160 from 117 the year before,  according to numbers as of Dec. 28 compiled by the National Law  Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, a nonprofit that tracks police  deaths.
> There also was a spike in shooting deaths. Fifty-nine federal, state and  local officers were killed by gunfire in 2010, a 20 percent jump from  last year's figures when 49 were killed. And 73 officers died in traffic  incidents, a rise from the 51 killed in 2009, according to the data.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 28, 2010)

More people are desperate lately.  Also, respect and fear of police is  down. In some areas, fear and respect have been replaced by anger and  contempt. Cops are not seen as 'serving and protecting' but  'intimidating and punishing on whim'. 
The only way to reverse this trend is better education and training of  the officers, and an extensive system of public relations to restore  respect on both sides of the badge.

I see too many of these notices.  I would be quite happy to never see another again.

A quick search on Youtube shows a large number of police encounter  videos. While a lot of them are bluntly put, the work of dumbasses  looking to impress their friends, there are enough showing bad judgment  on the LEO side to influence things.  I follow photographer Carlos  Millers blog which details photographer-cop run ins, and there is a  clear lack of education on the side of law enforcement in regards to  photographers rights. In some cases weapons are drawn, photographers  assaulted, and equipment damaged, while the photographer was lawfully  engaged in legal actions. These stories get out, and the result is not  respect, not fear, but contempt of cops.  I have a great deal of respect  for cops. My family has several in it, several of my staff on MT are  LEO's, I count a number of LEO's as my clients.  I like to think I'm on  good terms with them.  But I don't want to deal with them as a  photographer, have no desire to be lied to about where I can and can't  shoot (on private property with owners permission, from my own property,  and in public no permission needed), what I can or can't shoot (hint:  if it's in public, it's legal outside of a couple of military  installations), if I need permission (hint: if you're in public I  don't), if I have to show you my pictures (no), if I have to delete them  on demand (no), if I need to show you ID (not in most cases), if I need  to give you my film (not unless you have a warrant), and so on.  All of  these points have been caught on video with cops in the wrong...to the  extent of a cop being caught asking his partner if they couldn't just  make something up to intimidate the photographer, and a newb Secret  Service agent drawing his gun and ordering a photographer to delete a  picture or 'else'...  

Cases like this erode public trust, the case with the SS involved a  respected professional photographer who has previously photographed the  President. If he is getting hassled, then what about me when I venture  out?  Now, I'm not suggesting cameramen are behind the increase in cop  shootings and assaults, however it is 1 symptom on a list of many that  needs to be addressed in order to rebuild public trust in our police.  

Also eroding our (the public) respect are the increased cases of cops  being found to be criminals themselves. WNY has had several in recent  years convicted, with the suggestion that there are more still.  Our  local holding center has had a number of prisoner suicides and escapes  in recent years, prompting Federal investigation and determinations of  wrong doing by our county police. Again, more cases that work to  undermine our trust and respect in LEO's.

The cops are frustrated themselves due to poor funding, inadequate  equipment, spotty training, and politicians playing games with them.  They have to deal with the public distrust, and I've heard from several  that the on the job stress takes a toll. Their goal is to do their job  to the best of their abilities and go home at the end of the day. We all  do, but most of us don't have to deal with the dangers of answering a  domestic complain, pulling over a drunk driver, or trying to break up a  group of unruly kids alone.  It's a hard job, and most cops are good  people.  The few bad apples give them headaches.

The public needs to be able to trust the police. This alone will help  cut back a lot of the problems. The way to do that is educate both  sides, and that involves more community involvement good positive PR.   It wouldn't hurt if the rags calling themselves newspapers would report  on all the good things cops do around town to balance the news better.


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## Archangel M (Dec 28, 2010)

Yeah..but the nut in Alaska killed two cops who treated him fairly. They had dealt with this guy before (they were 2 cops of a 4-5 man department in a small small town) and didn't want to run a mentally ill man through the system. They were shot dead in front of their families for their troubles.

The Arkansas troopers were conducting a routine car stop that was on video. They were courteous and fair and were shot dead by a pair of "Freemen" whack jobs.

4 police officers at a coffee shop are killed by a gun toting violent ex-con.

The "the public doesn't trust cops because they are jackboots who steal cameras" just don't fly with me on 99.99% of this years violent cop deaths Bob. There are far too many violent and mentally ill people that continue to be spat back onto the streets via the "revolving door". Thats the real problem.


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## billc (Dec 28, 2010)

Chicago is having this problem as well.  I heard that the deaths of police officers are up 38% here in chicago.  The city is down about 2000 officers, due to lack of hiring, regular time off and injuries, and the politicians are not ready to deal with the problem.  The ambushing of officers is becoming more and more a common occurence.  We have had a couple of big cases here in this year alone.  We need more police, we need the citizens to back them up, and we need the politicians to cut loose with the necessary funds.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 28, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> The "the public doesn't trust cops because they are jackboots who steal cameras" .
> 
> <minor edit>
> 
> There are far too many violent and mentally ill people that continue to be spat back onto the streets via the "revolving door". Thats the real problem.



There are two truths in this paragraph and they should not be played off one against the other as they are both facets of the crisis.

The situation as seen from far away over here in England is that the 'good' people don't trust the poice because they are seen as 'enforcers' rather than protectors and the 'bad' people don't give a stuff because they know the policing methods are ineffectual against them.

How to fix that crime-and-punishment version of stagflation is beyond me.  One thing is for sure, increasing the overt totalitarianism isn't going to make things better.

You could try reducing the causes of crime but the ingrained culture wont allow it because you've been trained to a spinal-reflex state that that's Communism (TM).  Mind you, that only works for non-drug related crime and that's the core rot at the heart of the apple (here too).


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## MA-Caver (Dec 28, 2010)

Agrees with what Sukerkin said... that  'good' people don't trust the poice because they are seen as  'enforcers' rather than protectors and the 'bad' people don't give a  stuff because they know the policing methods are ineffectual against  them. 

The infamous cliche (which is sadly true) about the revolving door of the penal/justice system where criminals get off on technicalities even though they are totally guilty and all (other) evidence is against them (even if it was clear cut video) is only one of the many wrongs about our system. 
Laws changing to protect the guilty instead of the innocent, where criminals have to have rights enforced in order to properly and lawfully prosecute them lest they be deemed unfair and railroaded into jail... that has got to go. 
Understandably technology has helped numerous of people who were actually innocent be freed. These laws need staying and fine tuning so that mistakes like that don't happen. But actually guilty ones ... sigh... a detective or CSI messes up or misses just one thing in the investigation and "they have no choice but to let the perp go".

How are people going to respect the law knowing that they could get off that easily. Seems that lawyers are being trained to protect the guilty because they get a nice pay off at the end of it whereas the innocent may be just some regular Joe who is barely making ends meet and well, Joes aren't just as profitable. 

Being an LEO has always been a dangerous job even when bad guys feared the cops and prison, where killing a cop was the WORST thing you can do and they run the risk of being alienated by their own ... and good folk felt confident and secure when they saw a cruiser passing by their house on a routine patrol. 

It is getting worse but I still have my own faith in the cops that I know personally and the ones I see out doing their jobs. I have my prayers for them that they arrive home safely each night after a shift and sleep well knowing they're making a difference however small or big.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 28, 2010)

I'm not saying "cops stealing cameras" is the cause.
It's 1 of a number of 'pin prick' erosion's of the 'public trust'.
WNY has had about 6-10 'bad cop' stories this past year alone..including 5 in-uniform cops who stopped in a bar, got drunk and roughed up the guy who asked them to calm down.  WNY is a small area, that's alot of stories for us.  When you see more and more 'bad cop' stories, it can and does erode trust. The answer isn't to shut up the messengers, it's to rebuild that trust.

Here's the KT thread where I and others have said a lot more
*Police Fatalaties Jump*



At the end of the day, I want 3 things, in regards to this topic.
I want to trust my law enforcement, and I want every cop to come home safe.
I also don't want to either need or be the recipient of their services.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 28, 2010)

As an LEO for the last 10 years I can say even in that time I have seen a big change in the way we do our jobs.  Due to budget cuts most departments are understaffed which causes us to have to change our approach.  No long can we be "protectors" we just dont have time we have to be "enforcers"  because as soon as we are done dealing with the call we are on we have 10 more waiting for us. We dont have the time to talk to citizens to figure out real soultions to problems.  Add that to the why the economy is causing most stress on the citizens which cause more crimes including domestic assaults, robberys, thefts.  Also We as Law enforcment are not spared from the econmic problems.  My salary alone has gone down 25% with furlough days and cutting out all overtime.  That stresses us out then we have to go to work and deal with all that stress.  We are only human.  

Then on to Bad cops I think the number of bad cops has not changed I just think we are doing a better job of finding them and reporting it.  There was at one time the blue wall where you didnt report your buddy for doing bad things you just looked the other way.  I think that has now changed in police culture.  Now add that to the fact that society as a whole has changed.  In my state drug use and arrest records prior to apply to a job as law enforcement was an automatic disqualification.  Prob is now we had to lower standards and allow less honorable people apply because we just cant find the squeeky clean people anymore.  They are not applying for the jobs so we have to take what we can get.  Fill a room up with 50 people applying for a police job and see how many in that room have admitted to using drugs or stealing at least 50% will admit to it.


Now for the OP about taking pictures.  Ive been a cop for 10 years and have never taken someones camrea.  Ive been photographed I have ordered people to stop taking pictures and I have ordered people with cameras to leave it all depends on what we have going on.  If Im on a serious incident I dont want people taking pictures.  If I have a victim I dont want you taking pics of them.  You may have a "right" but you know what I dont care because that victim has "rights" to.  Last time I removed a photographer was at a serious accident where a 14 year old boy was hit by a car and killed as he stood at the bus stop waiting to go to school.  Some guy walked up and was trying to take pictures of this kids body which was very mangled.  I stopped him because as a parent I would not want pics of my child like that to be out there for people to do god know what with.  He had no reason to take the pics.  No if I was standing there directing traffic, on a simple traffic stop or something with out a victim I could care less snapp all the pics you want.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 28, 2010)

I appreciate your reply, I do however want to address 1 part of it.

What you as a cop, a concerned parent, or the local rabbi might want is irrelevant if the act is a lawful one. That last part is the crucial part. If the act is a -lawful- one.

If I am on a public sidewalk taking a photo of something in public, where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy, which plain view qualifies as, the taking of photos or video is a lawful act, unless the act is somehow interfering with your function as a LEO.  Your discomfort, your idea of propriety are irrelevant.  Please keep in mind I am arguing legal right, not moral right, which in the cases you mentioned I personally agree with you.  The argument of 'just because you can, doesn't mean you should." Cops should be well aware of the idea of "in plain view" as I've seen that used to justify a number of arrests, and more. 

In 1 accident case a cop walked over 100 feet to order a photographer to stop, and then assaulted the photographer when his unlawful order was legally refused. The cops justification for his actions was the exact same reason you gave. The cop didn't -want- the photographer to take photos. But cops don't make laws on whim, at least, they aren't supposed to. 

I've posted a lot on photographers rights, and LEO encounter stories in the past, and don't wish this to become another of those threads.
See http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/tutorials/photography_law_rights.html and http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm for legal information on those.

We do have a number of LEO's here.  What do you see as the causes for this problem? Ballen hit on a number of points that I think contribute to things.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 29, 2010)

The number of officers murdered in the line of duty is, thankfully, so low these days as to allow two or three specific multi-victim incidents to cause huge percentage increases from year to year.

I would be cautious to try and derive any kind of 'trend' from a yearly fluctuation other than the general downward trend for the last three decades.

160 this last year and 117 the year before is an extraordinarily low number for a nation of 300 Million people being policed by a few hundred thousand police officers. Each one is a tragedy, but as a whole they are a testament to the effectiveness of good training, good equipment, good tactics.

Because of the 24 hour news cycle, there is the perception that violence in American society is getting worse.......but the downward trend in police homicides parallels a general downward trend in crime and violence in America over the last three decades.

That's not to say there aren't still really bad folks out there who want to harm you or me, because they are definitely there......but they are not behind every tree.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 29, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I appreciate your reply, I do however want to address 1 part of it.
> 
> What you as a cop, a concerned parent, or the local rabbi might want is irrelevant if the act is a lawful one. That last part is the crucial part. If the act is a -lawful- one.
> 
> ...


 

Im not saying what is done is right but sometimes as a human you just get so fed up with people doing just sicko things.  Like taking pictures of a dead child.  For what?  What purpose would it serve other then for this creep to post these pics all over the internet and someday god forbid the parents stumble onto the pics on some forum.  Take pics of the car, take pics of the police I dont care but not the body.  I undersamd your point and I have defended the rights of many including that crazy westboro church that came to protest the death of 2 brothers 9 and 11 who drowned in a pond while there dad was serving in Iraq.  The westboro people sent 20 protesters to these kids funeral holding sign.  In general I have only had a neg. encounter with a photographer once that I can remember.  Im not saying what I did was correct or legal and had he decided to press the issue I would have been in trouble but he was just a punk teenager that wanted the pics for facebook or myspace and to pass around at his school.  Sometimes in this world you need to satand up for whats right and moral and that may make me a bad officer but at least I can look at myself in the mirror at night and sleep well.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 29, 2010)

Sadly, every idiot has access to a camera and suddenly thinks he's a photographer or tv reporter or a CSI. Give the legit people bad reps.  There is a legit reason to photograph a dead child, but I don't have the ability to handle it.  Look up "Now I lay me down to sleep" if interested.  But that's a tangent.

:asian:


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## Empty Hands (Dec 29, 2010)

MA-Caver said:


> The infamous cliche (which is sadly true) about the revolving door of the penal/justice system where criminals get off on technicalities even though they are totally guilty and all (other) evidence is against them (even if it was clear cut video) is only one of the many wrongs about our system.



Lets have some numbers here rather than rhetoric.  How often is this happening?  Is it really even happening beyond a statistically insignificant amount?  How do you know it's a major problem?  One number that should give you pause is that more than 90% of criminal cases end in a plea bargain - so they are convicted and face a punishment.  Even if every other case "got off on a technicality", that's still less than 10%.

It's too easy to make emotional statements based on something that may not even be true - which has led you to wanting to dismantle our system of "innocent until proven guilty."  Shouldn't you at least make sure it's worth the cost first?



MA-Caver said:


> Laws changing to protect the guilty instead of the innocent, where criminals have to have rights enforced in order to properly and lawfully prosecute them lest they be deemed unfair and railroaded into jail... that has got to go.



If charged defendants (no one is "guilty" until convicted) don't have rights, then none of us do.  Our founders had the wisdom to understand that, thankfully.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 29, 2010)

ballen0351 said:


> Add that to the why the economy is causing most stress on the citizens which cause more crimes including domestic assaults, robberys, thefts.



Untrue, all crime is still on its downward trend, the economy notwithstanding.  Crime rates are lower now than in 2007, before the recession.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 29, 2010)

Looking at the "bad cop" angle...

Looking at the numbers for Buffalo NY, we've got "over 850 sworn and non-sworn men and women" according to the BPD's web site.
I've seen about 8 cases published of major wrong doing..that's less than 1% "bad cop", and the 'big' stories involve 2-3 repeat cases, making the % even less. That's good odds IMO.  Also, with 1 exception I've always gotten a prompt and professional response when needed.

As an aside: http://www.bpdthenandnow.com/ has a history of the Buffalo PD.
Interesting reading.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 29, 2010)

That is a reassuringly small number of cases :nods:.  

Playing Devil's Advocate tho', how many 'questionable events' occur that never even get reported?

Mind you, we are drfiting just a little off the topic with that.

I am heartened to see some thought-provoking responses in this thread too, when it's a topic that could easily become incendury :tup:.


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## Archangel M (Dec 29, 2010)

ballen0351 said:


> Last time I removed a photographer was at a serious accident where a 14 year old boy was hit by a car and killed as he stood at the bus stop waiting to go to school.  Some guy walked up and was trying to take pictures of this kids body which was very mangled.  I stopped him because as a parent I would not want pics of my child like that to be out there for people to do god know what with.  He had no reason to take the pics.  No if I was standing there directing traffic, on a simple traffic stop or something with out a victim I could care less snapp all the pics you want.




Set up a wide crime scene and buy portable barriers to screen the area. Those screens were some of the best investments we made.

Im w/Sgtmac. This "rise" in cop deaths is due to a number of unusual multiple homicides. The overall trend has been down since the highest spike in the 60's-70's. The number of "bad cops" is most likely down as well. Between better reporting, more media coverage and less tolerance from LEO's, I think you will find that these cases are a "good thing" vs a sign of a bad trend. More and more are being weeded out.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 29, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Set up a wide crime scene and buy portable barriers to screen the area. Those screens were some of the best investments we made.
> 
> Im w/Sgtmac. This "rise" in cop deaths is due to a number of unusual multiple homicides. The overall trend has been down since the highest spike in the 60's-70's. The number of "bad cops" is most likely down as well. Between better reporting, more media coverage and less tolerance from LEO's, I think you will find that these cases are a "good thing" vs a sign of a bad trend. More and more are being weeded out.


 
Yeah we had the screens just took us a while to get them out there and the "camera man" lived right there so he beat the screens out there.  Plus for the first 25 min the kid was pinned between the car and the telephone pole so we were trying to get the car removed from his body.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 29, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Untrue, all crime is still on its downward trend, the economy notwithstanding. Crime rates are lower now than in 2007, before the recession.


 
Numbers dont always tell the true account.  Numbers are fudged and now alot of people just dont report crimes anymore.

number fudging for instance If there is a call for a shooting and the victim lives but refuses to talk or "Snitch"  then I know some places that have started calling this incident a self inflicted  accident so its not a crime.  I know Baltimore City PD is in trouble right now for not taking alot of rape reports because of victims not wanting to give all the details.  OUr department wont take reports for thefts from vehicles and small thefts we just give an incident number over the phone we just dont have the man power to respond to them all.  There is a big push at least where I work for crime numbers to drop and there are ways to have this occur it does not mean that crimes have actually fallen just the way they are reported.  Im not saying every place is doing this but I have seen it.


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## Archangel M (Dec 29, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> The situation as seen from far away over here in England is that the 'good' people don't trust the poice because they are seen as 'enforcers' rather than protectors and the 'bad' people don't give a stuff because they know the policing methods are ineffectual against them.



One. We technically are Law ENFORCEMENT. We don't legislate, we are not the Judicial branch. We locate violators of the law and charge them. Yes we get cats out of trees, we link up the mentally ill/etc with social services and we locate little lost Johnny but I don't know if I agree with the villainization of "Enforcement".

And along those ends, we ENFORCE the laws that 9 times out of 10 the PEOPLE DEMANDED...and gripe when we don't enforce. For a simple example seat belt/cell phone laws. We are in the nice position of having to enforce these laws. When we don't we are derided as being lax in our duties...lazy...to busy going to the coffee shop to do our jobs etc. And when we do we are belittled as being "enforcers" and tax collectors for the "police state". When we don't stop a speeder we are allowing someone to go off and get in a fatal wreck...when we do we are asked why we don't "go arrest the REAL criminals"??

You want fewer laws for us to "enforce"?? Call your politicians.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 29, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> One. We technically are Law ENFORCEMENT. We don't legislate, we are not the Judicial branch. We locate violators of the law and charge them. Yes we get cats out of trees, we link up the mentally ill/etc with social services and we locate little lost Johnny but I don't know if I agree with the villainization of "Enforcement".
> 
> And along those ends, we ENFORCE the laws that 9 times out of 10 the PEOPLE DEMANDED...and gripe when we don't enforce. For a simple example seat belt/cell phone laws. We are in the nice position of having to enforce these laws. When we don't we are derided as being lax in our duties...lazy...to busy going to the coffee shop to do our jobs etc. And when we do we are belittled as being "enforcers" and tax collectors for the "police state". When we don't stop a speeder we are allowing someone to go off and get in a fatal wreck...when we do we are asked why we don't "go arrest the REAL criminals"??
> 
> You want fewer laws for us to "enforce"?? Call your politicians.


 I hate that real criminal line it drives me nuts.


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## Archangel M (Dec 29, 2010)

And before I get the "you cant be a robot and enforce immoral or unconstitutional laws" line...lets be honest.

99.9999% of the time the issue isn't one of us being a black helicopter trooper coming to get your gun (or your camera). It's one of not liking that traffic or parking ticket. Or because we didn't railroad that neighbor you don't like and call 911 on every chance you get. Or because my arresting you for shoplifting was because of your race and not because I was called by a stores loss prevention office who has you on film stealing.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 29, 2010)

ballen0351 said:


> Numbers dont always tell the true account.  Numbers are fudged and now alot of people just dont report crimes anymore.



So what's more reliable?  Your personal experiences in a small part of the country interacting with a small part of the population?  Your subjective experience with news reports?  The numbers are what we have, and while I do know about some of the number fixing schemes, the numbers are more reliable than what came before them.  How else can you claim with any authority that crimes have risen now due to the recession?  Where is your evidence?


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## Sukerkin (Dec 29, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> One. We technically are Law ENFORCEMENT. We don't legislate, we are not the Judicial branch. We locate violators of the law and charge them.



OKay. it was late and my word choice didn't get my point across.  What I meant was that people do not see the police as being 'for' them anymore.  

The sense that 'You' (the police) are not on 'Our' (the public) side has been around for quite a time in the lower echelons of our society - after all, that's where a lot of criminality historically resided.  The problem is that it is climbing up the 'social scale'.

Even now, here in England, as I've said before, I am still much happier to see the police out and about - deserved or not, it makes me feel safer if I can see an officer nearby.  That attiude used to be a lot more widespread than it is now.  

In part this is down to such things as the heavy-handed use of the police to quell protest - our velvet glove has worn a little thin over the iron fist since the '80's .  Another part of it tho' is that we see that our police are not fulfilling their role of giving us an overall safer place for honest people to prosper; that loss of 'faith' leads to 'us' being less forgiving.

Anyhow - got to fly as the Officer in the House calls me to the dinner table .


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## ballen0351 (Dec 29, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> So what's more reliable? Your personal experiences in a small part of the country interacting with a small part of the population? Your subjective experience with news reports? The numbers are what we have, and while I do know about some of the number fixing schemes, the numbers are more reliable than what came before them. How else can you claim with any authority that crimes have risen now due to the recession? Where is your evidence?


 
Your right it may just be this area and not nation wide but I can tell you our call volume has gone up in the 10 years ive done this job not gone down. The # of thefts, frauds, robbery, burglary calls have seemed to be more frequent.  Crimes at a national level may be falling per the numbers I can say I dont see it as related to actual calls since every year we end up with more calls then the year past yet the way we catagorize the calls has shown a decrease in crime.  I will say violent crime has seemed to be going down which is good but petty thefts, and shoplifting seem to me to be rising we just dont take reports for them so they are not put into the crime report numbers.  Plus alot of stores no longer even call us where they have shoplifters they deal with it internally and normally find it cheaper to just get the items back and ban the person then to have the person arrested and have to pay to have employees come to court.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 29, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> Another part of it tho' is that we see that our police are not fulfilling their role of giving us an overall safer place for honest people to prosper; that loss of 'faith' leads to 'us' being less forgiving.
> 
> Anyhow - got to fly as the Officer in the House calls me to the dinner table .


 
People do need to undersand that we cant do it alone.  We cant make your neighborhood safer if your not willing to help.  You see things in your area and demand action you have 1 area to worry about we have 10 and each one has someone demanding we clean it up.  We just cant be everywhere at once.  Here in the State with the big "Stop Snitching" movement makes our job that much harder.  Then when we do lock up a bad guy and the judicial system releases him or gives him a slap on the wrist and hes back out soon that hurts us several ways.
1st it makes the bad guy get the attitude that you cant touch me im above the law
2nd it gives him street cred with his people on the street because he want did a little time and didnt snitch
3rd it makes the good people less likely to help because they know nothing will happen to the bad guy.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 29, 2010)

ballen0351 said:


> Numbers dont always tell the true account. Numbers are fudged and now alot of people just dont report crimes anymore.
> 
> number fudging for instance If there is a call for a shooting and the victim lives but refuses to talk or "Snitch" then I know some places that have started calling this incident a self inflicted accident so its not a crime. I know Baltimore City PD is in trouble right now for not taking alot of rape reports because of victims not wanting to give all the details. OUr department wont take reports for thefts from vehicles and small thefts we just give an incident number over the phone we just dont have the man power to respond to them all. There is a big push at least where I work for crime numbers to drop and there are ways to have this occur it does not mean that crimes have actually fallen just the way they are reported. Im not saying every place is doing this but I have seen it.


 
The statistic are about all anyone has to go on. There is no rational way to extrapolate those 'unreported' crimes. You just simply can't do it.

Moreover, the reality suggests that the issue is far more in the other direction.....i.e. statistics indicating that crime is WORSE than it actually is.......some crimes are notoriously erroneously reported.........crimes like homicide, for example, either happened or they didn't........other crimes, such as fradulent stealing reports for insurance claims, erroneous sexual assault reports made by alleged victims seeking retribution against the alleged suspect for some other slight, erroneous assault claims.

And for every agency like Baltimore and St. Louis who is under pressure to show that their crime rate is lower than it is because of bad publicity, there are 30 agencies trying to 'pad' their crime rates to get increasingly limited Federal funds, which are alloted partially according to need indicated by UCR reporting.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 29, 2010)

ballen0351 said:


> Your right it may just be this area and not nation wide but I can tell you our call volume has gone up in the 10 years ive done this job not gone down. The # of thefts, frauds, robbery, burglary calls have seemed to be more frequent. Crimes at a national level may be falling per the numbers I can say I dont see it as related to actual calls since every year we end up with more calls then the year past yet the way we catagorize the calls has shown a decrease in crime. I will say violent crime has seemed to be going down which is good but petty thefts, and shoplifting seem to me to be rising we just dont take reports for them so they are not put into the crime report numbers. Plus alot of stores no longer even call us where they have shoplifters they deal with it internally and normally find it cheaper to just get the items back and ban the person then to have the person arrested and have to pay to have employees come to court.


 
Certain crimes very likely may rise as the economy effects those........things like petty theft. Odd circumstances drive major fluctuations in specific crimes. For example, China buying up huge supplies and driving the excessive market price of copper there a couple years back drove the number of worksite thefts and major copper thefts through the roof for several months!

Every joe dirtbag and his brother was hitting build sites and storage facilities for copper.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 29, 2010)

ballen0351 said:


> People do need to undersand that we cant do it alone.  We cant make your neighborhood safer if your not willing to help.  You see things in your area and demand action you have 1 area to worry about we have 10 and each one has someone demanding we clean it up.  We just cant be everywhere at once.  Here in the State with the big "Stop Snitching" movement makes our job that much harder.  Then when we do lock up a bad guy and the judicial system releases him or gives him a slap on the wrist and hes back out soon that hurts us several ways.
> 1st it makes the bad guy get the attitude that you cant touch me im above the law
> 2nd it gives him street cred with his people on the street because he want did a little time and didnt snitch
> 3rd it makes the good people less likely to help because they know nothing will happen to the bad guy.



I don't disagree with anything you said there, good sir :nods:.

We. well some of us, do understand as much an outsider can, the difficulties the police endure trying to get an impossible job done.  Please don't think that anything posted here is 'having a go' at any particular officer doing his best under bad circumstances.  We, or at least I, am talking about perceptions and principles of policing, rather than the nuts-and-bolts, actually doing the unforgiving job, side of things.  Over here in England, however, there is an institutional 'problem' that I'll note later.

As to the reporting issue, I've noted before that reporting of crime has, in my experience gone down.  I've been burgled twice, had a car stolen, had one attempted burgularly and one attempted car theft.  Out of that catalogue, I reported one, the first burgulary, to the police.  The response and outcome was so unstellar that I've never bothered since - no point if the Force can't help me and makes me, the victim, feel like I'm wasting their time.  

That's the problem I referred to earlier, how the police make the victims feel like an irritant rather than someone to be helped.  I know my stuff isn't the Crown Jewels but having my car stolen means I am a lot of months savings out of pocket.  Being told to fill in some forms and we'll look for it as we go (sub-text if we can be bothered) really hurts the Police's stature amongst those they're supposed to serve.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 29, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> As to the reporting issue, I've noted before that reporting of crime has, in my experience gone down. I've been burgled twice, had a car stolen, had one attempted burgularly and one attempted car theft. Out of that catalogue, I reported one, the first burgulary, to the police. The response and outcome was so unstellar that I've never bothered since - no point if the Force can't help me and makes me, the victim, feel like I'm wasting their time.
> 
> That's the problem I referred to earlier, how the police make the victims feel like an irritant rather than someone to be helped. I know my stuff isn't the Crown Jewels but having my car stolen means I am a lot of months savings out of pocket. Being told to fill in some forms and we'll look for it as we go (sub-text if we can be bothered) really hurts the Police's stature amongst those they're supposed to serve.


 
100% with Sukerkin on this one... I've had my car broken into a few times while I park it at the station to go to work, it's at the point where I mainly now walk to the station and catch the train to be sure the car's safe at home. Each time I've called to report it, I've been told I could go to a police station if I really wanted or wait a few hours and they may send officers over to inspect. After driving to the police station, I've had to give a report through an intercom, the officer has never even come out the back office and given a case number and that's it. Also my work premises got broken into, had a few things stolen including large screen TV's etc. Called the police who came down about an hour later, they looked around, said someone would be in touch to come get prints and I never heard back from them. Tried calling back to the station a couple of days later and was told it wasn't "big enough" for them do send a unit out and to claim insurance. Kinda shakes one's faith....

I'm not saying all cops are like this or that you guys aren't busy enough etc but realistically, every person calling to report a crime is ringing because to them it's a serious crime, as the victim, they can't afford the emotional detachment in a lot of cases to class it as a "petty crime" or otherwise.


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## jks9199 (Dec 29, 2010)

ballen0351 said:


> I hate that real criminal line it drives me nuts.


I've been known to respond with something along the lines of "I'd like to... but people who can't obey the traffic laws keep getting in my way."


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## Archangel M (Dec 29, 2010)

This topic reminds me of an article on a cop blog I read.

http://tgace.wordpress.com/2010/07/23/cop-musings/



> ...
> 
> Now you may ask, &#8220;why should I call the police if they are not going to get my stuff back&#8221;. Well, for starters you may need a report to give to your credit card company or  for your insurance. But more importantly because it helps us to know where the problems are, what time and days the crimes are happening, the method of theft and what sort of stuff is being stolen. This helps us to zero in on who is doing this and when. Believe it or not, we ARE interested in stopping these people from doing this to other residents even if odds of charging anybody in YOUR particular incident are slim. People would be shocked to discover how often that report the cop did, even though they never heard anything more about it, helped catch someone down the road.
> 
> So I guess that in conclusion I am trying to say, don&#8217;t think that I am uninterested in solving YOUR particular crime. I would love to lock someone up and get your stuff back. But unless there is some decent information to follow up on there is not much that I can do, other than file a report and hope that the data may eventually lead to an arrest in another case



This is just the end of it. The rest is pretty good too.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 29, 2010)

It's interesting that i've rarely worked car breakins where the thieves actually needed to break anything to get in. I've had a couple of those, but 99% of the time the car is unlocked and the items stolen were simply left in the car in plain sight.


A couple years back I had a poor unfortunate gal who had left the Christmas money, approximately $400.00 worth, in the center console, in her unlocked car, parked in front of the residence. Some mope walking through the area jiggled the lock, discovered it open, perused through, and absconded with the Christmas funds.

Lock the doors, folks! An ounce of prevention is worth multiple futile manhours trying to track down the cash after the thief has already spent it on booze, burgers and crack......which he probably did before the crime was even discovered.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 29, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> It's interesting that i've rarely worked car breakins where the thieves actually needed to break anything to get in. I've had a couple of those, but 99% of the time the car is unlocked and the items stolen were simply left in the car in plain sight.
> 
> 
> A couple years back I had a poor unfortunate gal who had left the Christmas money, approximately $400.00 worth, in the center console, in her unlocked car, parked in front of the residence. Some mope walking through the area jiggled the lock, discovered it open, perused through, and absconded with the Christmas funds.
> ...



In my case, the car was locked and nothing was in plain sight... No cash or anything like that the first couple of times, seemed to be a break in with the hopes of finding something, the last time though, car was still locked and nothing was in plain sight but I had my MA gear in the back as we had class that night. All my training weapons, my belt, my kick pads/target pads etc. I parked in the shopping centre to go into the post office to collect some packages and by the time I got back, everything was gone. They left my gi though and chose instead of take an old membership card to our school which had expired 2 years ago. During the report, I got totally grilled as to what I was doing with weapons in the first place - even though they were all wooden and/or padded - and that seemed to be where the focus went.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 29, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> In my case, the car was locked and nothing was in plain sight... No cash or anything like that the first couple of times, seemed to be a break in with the hopes of finding something, the last time though, car was still locked and nothing was in plain sight but I had my MA gear in the back as we had class that night. All my training weapons, my belt, my kick pads/target pads etc. I parked in the shopping centre to go into the post office to collect some packages and by the time I got back, everything was gone. They left my gi though and chose instead of take an old membership card to our school which had expired 2 years ago. During the report, I got totally grilled as to what I was doing with weapons in the first place - even though they were all wooden and/or padded - and that seemed to be where the focus went.


 
Sometimes, as in your case, you just get unlucky. Most of the time, though, it's a product of bad decisions.

I'd rather tell folks how to avoid becoming a victim in the first place than have to try and close the barn door after the horse has fled the state. Making things more difficult for thieves is a key part of self defense, as we're far more likely to become the victim of theft in our lives than of violent assault.

A variety of things can effect a thief's decision from locking doors to where one chooses to park.  Some locations give better access to a thief than others, for example, where one parks in a parking lot.  Parking in a dark corner away from street lights will create a more tempting opportunity for a thief.

One should try to think like a thief........when parking their car or doing some other activity, think about how easy it would be to access your property, and then purposely make that act more difficult.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 30, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> I don't disagree with anything you said there, good sir :nods:.
> 
> We. well some of us, do understand as much an outsider can, the difficulties the police endure trying to get an impossible job done. Please don't think that anything posted here is 'having a go' at any particular officer doing his best under bad circumstances. We, or at least I, am talking about perceptions and principles of policing, rather than the nuts-and-bolts, actually doing the unforgiving job, side of things. Over here in England, however, there is an institutional 'problem' that I'll note later.
> 
> ...


 
I hear that alot people just dont bother even calling the police anymore.  Ive gone to burglary calls and the homeowner tells me this is the 3rd or 4th time in 6 months but they have not reported it before.

As for the last part about making the victim feel like an irritant I can see that even I have found myself being short with people cutting people off.  I cant make an excuse for it I can only say that we should treat people better.  I also cant speak for anyone else but myself but sometimes I forget that to the victim what happened to them is a big deal when to me its just the 4th burglary call of the day and its no big deal.  I forget that an encounter with the police is not a normal thing its a big deal.  thats why I like to talk to people like you and hear how the public sees us.  I talk to cops all day most of my friends are cops even my wife was a cop so I lose touch with how others think.  Alot of cops do get an us vs them attitude because most people are not glad to see us we meet people at the worst times of there lives and people are not always the nicest to us I get told weekly how to do my job, that "I pay your salary so do what I say", "why you messing with me go find a real criminal",  "your messing with me because im black, hispanic, gay, white, a woman".  Ive been spit on, punched, kicked, shot at, had guns and knives pulled on me, jumped by 3 people, all because of the uniform I wear.  Ive had lawsuits filed against me, had people follow me home, had my house broken into, had a guy waiting for me at my house.  There are cops gunned down trying to grab a cup of coffee not bothering a sole.  So we tend to get a neg attitude toward others and its not right we a public servents but I think at least for me I forget that sometimes.


Again im not speaking for all police these are just my thoughts and views as I see things.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 30, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> . Called the police who came down about an hour later, they looked around, said someone would be in touch to come get prints and I never heard back from them. Tried calling back to the station a couple of days later and was told it wasn't "big enough" for them do send a unit out and to claim insurance. Kinda shakes one's faith....
> 
> I'm not saying all cops are like this or that you guys aren't busy enough etc but realistically, every person calling to report a crime is ringing because to them it's a serious crime, as the victim, they can't afford the emotional detachment in a lot of cases to class it as a "petty crime" or otherwise.


 
Sadly thats how things have become at least where I work with officers out on furlough days and just the call volume we get everyday we dont have the man power to send a cop to every call.  There are not enough officers on the street or hours in the day to get to them all.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 30, 2010)

Understandable, you're only human after all. All I was trying to say was that unfortunately, the after effects of budget cuts to your department, understaffing, long hours etc impact the average joe public and that doesn't help the whole feelings side of things. To any LEO's reading this, I for one have nothing against you guys, in fact I'd like to make a career of it when I finish my course (Criminology majoring in Forensics) but the situation aint the best at the moment.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 30, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> It's interesting that i've rarely worked car breakins where the thieves actually needed to break anything to get in. I've had a couple of those, but 99% of the time the car is unlocked and the items stolen were simply left in the car in plain sight.



Heh, I had the opposite experience once.  Someone took a crowbar to our window to get in when nothing was in the car, and they didn't take a thing.

Might have just been crazy or looking for trouble, it was in a transit lot and other random cars had the same thing happen.


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## Archangel M (Dec 30, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Heh, I had the opposite experience once. Someone took a crowbar to our window to get in when nothing was in the car, and they didn't take a thing.
> 
> Might have just been crazy or looking for trouble, it was in a transit lot and other random cars had the same thing happen.


 
Sometimes it's just vandalism. We get kids with pellet guns going on car window sprees every once and a while here.


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## jks9199 (Dec 30, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> It's interesting that i've rarely worked car breakins where the thieves actually needed to break anything to get in. I've had a couple of those, but 99% of the time the car is unlocked and the items stolen were simply left in the car in plain sight.
> 
> 
> A couple years back I had a poor unfortunate gal who had left the Christmas money, approximately $400.00 worth, in the center console, in her unlocked car, parked in front of the residence. Some mope walking through the area jiggled the lock, discovered it open, perused through, and absconded with the Christmas funds.
> ...


Don't get me started on that issue... I'm still cleaning up paper on a series of tamperings, larcenies from vehicles, and stolen vehicles that would (for the most part) never have happened had the people simply locked their cars and not left spare and/or valet keys in the cars...

Like your stuff?  So do crooks.  Wanna keep your stuff?  LOCK IT UP!


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## Sukerkin (Dec 30, 2010)

I am stunned that people behave as you experienced 'hands' describe!  

Clearly you see much more of the picture than we, non-LEO's do, so I can't gainsay your anecdotes but I'm still amazed that the 'victims' of these crimes acted as they did.  Why not paint a sign on your car saying "Please steal my stuff!"? .

My up-close-and-personal brushes with car crime have been very different.  The first one, the car I 'lost', is one of those occasions where if it hadn't happened to you you wouldn't believe it.  

My car, a rather rare white Sierra Sapphire, all original, including the alloys that someone offered me £1500 for a week before the car went (suspicious huh?), was stolen in broad daylight in front of a half-dozen witnesses who knew it was my car but did nothing.  Why?  Because the thieves rolled up with a car transporter, didn't act furtively and were dressed in 'uniform' mechanics overalls!

The attempted car theft was again from outside my home (terrace rather than flat this time).  They ignored the security lights and gained access by bending the top of the drivers-side door down.  Their loss was that having gained entry by brute force, they rather clumsily lent on the horn, not once, or twice but three times, which woke me up.  I appeared at the overlooking window, blearily peered out, saw them and plucked the katana from the ornamental dai-sho on the windowsill ... at which point they legged it.  I'm guessing that facing an angry naked man with a sword wasn't high on their list of things to do that night .


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## ballen0351 (Dec 30, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> I'm guessing that facing an angry naked man with a sword wasn't high on their list of things to do that night .


 Cant say I blame them on that one  thats funny.  Not that your car was damaged but I can just imagine the looks on the guys faces when they saw that.


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## Archangel M (Dec 31, 2010)

Another example of who is killing our cops and why.

http://www.sundaypaper.com/Blogs/Th...32/WHO-WILL-REFORM-FULTON-COUNTYS-COURTS.aspx



> According to a report by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Favors had 18 prior arrests. The most recent was about two weeks before the killing of which he is accused. In mid-December he faced charges of &#8220;Criminal Attempt to enter an Auto, Possession of Cocaine, Possession of Tools for a Commission of a Crime, and three counts of Obstruction of Law Enforcement&#8221; according to a statement by Fulton County Superior Court Chief Judge Cynthia Wright.
> 
> Such rap sheets are common in Atlanta.
> 
> ...



Ga. Trooper Chadwick LeCroy. He was shot in the face by a driver he was attempting to stop for a traffic violation. The driver fled the scene in LeCroy&#8217;s patrol car.


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## Archangel M (Dec 31, 2010)

http://www.policeone.com/police-her...ndreds-honor-Mass-officer-killed-in-shootout/



> WOBURN, Mass. &#8212; About 2,000 law enforcement officers from around Massachusetts are remembering a police officer who was killed during a robbery.
> 
> John Maguire's wake is being held on Thursday. Police from departments ranging from the Massachusetts State Police to Harvard University stood in silence as Maguire's fellow Woburn officers walked out of the funeral home one by one.
> 
> ...



http://www.policeone.com/legal/articles/3138253-Mourning-and-outrage-in-Mass-cops-death/



> Rooney notes that Cinelli's time behind bars included more than 50 disciplinary reports and two escapes. During his first stretch in prison, between 1976 and 1985, Cinelli incurred 40 disciplinary reports and was moved to a higher security tier.
> 
> By 1985, with improving behavior, Cinelli was granted furloughs. He completed four furloughs, but failed to return on his fifth. He was on the run for two months. He was convicted 10 months later of additional armed robberies he committed during that escape.
> 
> ...



It took a veteran Cops life..taken from his family during the holiday season...to finally keep this scumbag from victimizing the public again.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 1, 2011)

R.I.P. Officer Maguire...at least he took the bastard with him.

I hope those ****ers on the parole board never enjoy a full night's sleep for the rest of their lives...


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## Archangel M (Jan 3, 2011)

[yt]lAjOIn7Mtc4[/yt]


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## Archangel M (Jan 3, 2011)

From the murder above.

http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2011/jan/03/8/state-county-investigators-probe-ohio-shootout-ar-348410/



> Apparently, the Morgan County sheriff's office received a complaint in 2001 (exact date undetermined) about Ferryman shooting at other campers who were taking firewood from a community pile.
> 
> When officers responded, Ferryman fired a weapon in the direction of the officers.
> 
> ...


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## jks9199 (Jan 3, 2011)

2010 marked a spike in police deaths, and one of the highest totals in more than ten years, with the exception of 2001.  http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/reports/2010_Law_Enforcement_Fatalities_Report.pdf


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