# How did Basics get like this?



## Makalakumu (Jul 14, 2008)

By know, everyone who frequents this forum should know that Shotokan Karate gave birth to the art of TSD.  If this is news to you, then take a quick search of this forum for threads on the origin on TSD.  

With that being said, I've been very lucky and enlightened by the public library system on Oahu.  The diversity and age of the books on karate that are available to be checked out is absolutely staggering.  They have original books on karate in Japanese dating back to the early 1900s from all of the famed practicioners.

For example, I have a book right now that is a direct English translation of Gichin Funakoshi's "Karate Do - Kyohan" or the master text.  The original was written in 1954.  This translation was completed in 1972 by Tsutomo Ohshima.  This is the first attempt to translate the Kyohan for English reading readers.

So far, this book has been very enlightening...and very troubling.  

Here is a list of basics presented in 1954 as the entirety of techniques practiced in the system.

Tewaza - hand techniques

Ippon-ken - one knuckle fist
Hira-ken - regular fist
Shihonzuki - four finger spear
Nihonzuki - two finger spear
Ipponzuki - one finger spear
Shuto - sword hand
Empi - elbow
Uraken - back fist

Ashiwaza - Foot Techniques

Mae-geri - front kick
Yoko-geri - side kick
Ushiro-geri - back kick
Mawashi-geri - round kick
Mikazuki-geri - crescent kick
Fumikomi - stomp kick
Hiza-tsuchi - knee thrust
Tobi-geri - jump kick
Nidan-geri - double kick
Nami-gaeshi - returning wave kick

Ukewaza - blocking techniques

Sukui-uke - scooping block
Kake-te - hooking block
Hiki-te - pulling in block
Harai-te - sweeping block
Kakae-te - trapping block
Kakiwake - opening block
Uchi-te - striking block

Nagewaza - throwing techniques

Byubudaoshi - Topple the folding screen
Komanage - Spinning top
Kubiwa - To encircle the neck
Katawaguruma - Half wheel
Tsubamegaeshi - V-turning swallow
Yaridama - To spear the ball
Taniotoshi - To push off a cliff
Udewa - To encircle with arms
Sakatsuchi - To hammer upside down

Tuitewaza - twisting hand techniques

These techniques are not given names but are dealt with in application sequences presented throughout the book.

Okay, so here is my question, how did TSD (or shotokan for that matter) go from this list of basics to the list of basics we see practiced in dojo's and dojangs today?  

This book is so fascinating because it gives us a glimpse of what karate training was like in the forties and fifties...a time when the founders of many of the KMA's were formulating what their arts would look like.  This book shows what they learned and then turned into the arts we see today.  

The differences that I'm seeing are not just limited to basics, kata, sparring, makiwara training, etc, it was all very different.  Simplified in a way, but far more utilitarian.

It's so strange that this way of training would be eschewed in favor of what we have now.  What happened to our basics?  How did they get this way?


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## Makalakumu (Jul 14, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> Ukewaza - blocking techniques
> 
> Sukui-uke - scooping block
> Kake-te - hooking block
> ...


 
This was literally eye-popping.  Notice the complete lack of terminology for low block, high block or whatever.  This is a principle based blocking system that suddenly makes the kata understandable.  How did we go from this to low block?


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## YoungMan (Jul 14, 2008)

Every generation that gets further and further away from the original teachers loses something, because knowledge is always incompletely transmitted. That is human nature. As a result, each succeeding generation teaches a litle differently because they didn't learn things exactly as their instructor did it. So what happens is a slow degradation of the original.
I can't speak for Tang Soo Do, but it certainly happened in Taekwondo. Basics are usually far from the way I remembered them. I see two solutions: Go back and learn correct basics from the senior instructors while you still can, or forge a new path, with the understanding that your basics are quite different from the original.


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## B.Redfield (Jul 14, 2008)

Actually, both Shotokan and Tang Soo Do are linked by Okinawan Te.
Koreans were exposed to Okinawan Karate beng taught in Japan during the 40 year occupation of Korea. Funikoshi was an Okinawan not a Japanese.  What became Shotokan in Japan after Funikoshi's death became Tang Soo Do in Korea after the occupation.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 15, 2008)

B.Redfield said:


> Actually, both Shotokan and Tang Soo Do are linked by Okinawan Te.
> Koreans were exposed to Okinawan Karate beng taught in Japan during the 40 year occupation of Korea. Funikoshi was an Okinawan not a Japanese. What became Shotokan in Japan after Funikoshi's death became Tang Soo Do in Korea after the occupation.


 
Funakoshi "Japanized" Okinawan karate, so I think it is fair to call it a "Japanese" martial art.  The book that I'm reading right now explains all of the parts that were "Japanized" and it is done in Funakoshi's own words.

So, to say that Koreans were learning Okinawan Karate isn't necessarily true.  Maybe in some cases, but for the most part, they were learning and mimicking Shotokan...a Japanese (Japanized Okinawan) art.


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## Hyper_Shadow (Jul 15, 2008)

If I remember correctly, folks weren't style restrictive back then either. I'm pretty sure Funakoshi trained with grappling fighters such Jigaro Kano. The absolute fact is that even though you have translated texts now you still shouldn't take it all as gospel. Major fact is most of these old 'masters' (a term I despise the use of, noone's ever a master), especially those from Japan recorded a lot of their martial knowledge during Meiji period. There is a good chance that some of what was being recorded was a crock for us dumb westerners to absorb into our systems and essentially weaken us from within. It wouldn't be an uncommon tactic. Especially from a society that traditionally regards everyone who isn't of the same creed to beneath them.
But that's me rambling again. On to subject.


> Funikoshi was an Okinawan not a Japanese.


Very true, matter of fact he came from Shuri, known as one of the three key villages for the origins of systemized karate today. Trace your Japanese arts roots in karate and you'll generally wind up back at one of three villages, Shuri, Naha and Tomari. And from there they learned things from the chinese. And so on until you get back to Africa and embusen hidden in heiroglyphs.


> As a result, each succeeding generation teaches a litle differently because they didn't learn things exactly as their instructor did it. So what happens is a slow degradation of the original.
> I can't speak for Tang Soo Do, but it certainly happened in Taekwondo.


I can't speak for either art. But I can speak from a broad martial arts perspective. Look at some of the things you see today. I've seen guys twirl a stick round in a nice display on a stage to music. I've seen other guys cooperating with one another in demonstrations because they want what they're doing to look good. I've seen people make up kata because they believe they can (though it's unnecessary as we don't live in a time where you can get killed by the state for practicing martial arts). We're living in a time where everything is becoming fragmented and people are letting there egos loose on the world. People are using martial arts for profit and it's wrong. The root knowledge is flying further and further away and whenever anyone collates enough information and experience to say they have a solid and effective system that they want to practice they get berated and called a charlaten (case in point Steve Grayston). But that's me rambling again. Back to point.

To conclude, what you've touched on, maunakumu, is only the tip of the iceberg. This is especially where tode is concerned. Look further back and you'll find that what you have already read is a still watered down version of what once was and then only an aspect of a much bigger and all ecompassing fighting system. We're a huge paradox gents, we train our hearts, bodies and minds for the greater good but at the end of the day we're taking teachings passed down from quite ruthless (albeit sometimes very gentlemanly) killers. It is with that in mind that you should train.


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jul 15, 2008)

*Trace your Japanese arts roots in karate and you'll generally wind up back at one of three villages, Shuri, Naha and Tomari. And from there they learned things from the chinese. And so on until you get back to Africa and embusen hidden in heiroglyphs.*

Are you trying to say that Asian arts trace their lineage back to Africa?????


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## Hyper_Shadow (Jul 15, 2008)

No, I'm saying that the vast majority of theories suggest that mankind pretty much sprouted from what is now known as Africa. The earliest recorded martial arts images are believed to be incredibly old heiroglyphs that detailed some form of embusen and kata like pattern. So what I'm saying is that most Karate came from China, and was formed (primarily) in three villages before being integrated into the already formiddable systems that the Japanese used. As for tracing Asian lineage right back to the dawn of time, well that's impossible; but folks have been fighting and killing one another since our existence and so it stands to reason that earlier and more primitive combat forms would have originated in Africa. Though who can say for sure, noone. What is important is what we have now.
It's like I've said already, people have been making martial arts up for years and years. Just like we see people doing now, the did many thousands of years ago. The origins were never the important issue, only whether they worked or not.


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## nathanwc (Jul 15, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> The origins were never the important issue, only whether they worked or not.



Amen


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## nathanwc (Jul 15, 2008)

But it is important to give credit where credit is due.


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## DavidCC (Jul 15, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> By know, everyone who frequents this forum should know that Shotokan Karate gave birth to the art of TSD. If this is news to you, then take a quick search of this forum for threads on the origin on TSD.
> 
> With that being said, I've been very lucky and enlightened by the public library system on Oahu. The diversity and age of the books on karate that are available to be checked out is absolutely staggering. They have original books on karate in Japanese dating back to the early 1900s from all of the famed practicioners.
> 
> ...


 
I think it might be due to the interaction of 2 trends: the desire to avoid hard work; the desire to make a living from teacing MA.

One or the other would not get us from A to B.  People do want to train, they just don't all want to do the hardest part which is constant unending repitition of basics.  So, if you want to keep your school full of paying students, if you are not going to fill your students' time with basics, what will it be filled by? Enter now a long list of not-very-challenging activities with a martial theme that take the place of the constant attention to basics; and that lead students along, rationing out useful info and small successes so that they continue to pay for more and more time.

Take the opposite as an informative example:  A guy spends the next 20 years doing no training other than hitting his makiwara every day for an hour.  anyone want to fight that guy????  not me!


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## Flying Crane (Jul 15, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Every generation that gets further and further away from the original teachers loses something, because knowledge is always incompletely transmitted... So what happens is a slow degradation of the original.


 
That often seems to be what is happening, but I don't think people necessarily do it on purpose, and I don't think it is the automatic, inevitable progression of events.

I do believe that we see this a lot nowadays because we live in a society in which most of us never need to actually use our skills to defend our lives.  Perhaps never.  So we practice for the enjoyment of it, and hopefully if we ever need it there will be enough there to save our butts, but we do not train with the same intensity, nor the same intent, as is done during chaotic, lawless, and violent times, which is definitely NOT what we live in currently in the West.  So it is easy to go down a different path and lose some of the real edge that the arts once had, when they were truly meant to maim and kill as quickly as possible, before the bad guy did just that to you.

however, I think if our society were to be plunged into a new dark age of lawlessness and crumbling society, we would find ourselves needing to sharpen our skills up again, and certainly there would be some who would do so.  Many would be unable to make the adjustment, and they may become casualties along the way.  But others will figure out what really works, under the hammer and forge of real experience.  And then the arts as a whole, those that survive, will rise back to a level of true usefulness again.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 15, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> That often seems to be what is happening, but I don't think people necessarily do it on purpose, and I don't think it is the automatic, inevitable progression of events.


Agreed.



> I do believe that we see this a lot nowadays because we live in a society in which most of us never need to actually use our skills to defend our lives.  Perhaps never.  So we practice for the enjoyment of it, and hopefully if we ever need it there will be enough there to save our butts, but we do not train with the same intensity, nor the same intent, as is done during chaotic, lawless, and violent times, which is definitely NOT what we live in currently in the West.  So it is easy to go down a different path and lose some of the real edge that the arts once had, when they were truly meant to maim and kill as quickly as possible, before the bad guy did just that to you.
> 
> _ however, I think if our society were to be plunged into a new dark age of lawlessness and crumbling society, we would find ourselves needing to sharpen our skills up again, and certainly there would be some who would do so._


Again, I agree, and a corollary occurs to me: in the social context we live in (in the US, anyway), we can't train with the intensity of some previous historical periods, because the lawsuits over training injuries would fly. And we can't go outside the training hall and jump into confrontations in order to test our material/skills, because prosecution would surely ensue.

But if we were thrown back/forward into a chaotic social context rivaling that in some parts of Asia in the past--even the past century--wherein these issues drop far down the list of governmental/social concerns, and when individual citizens might have to fight for their survival, then we could and undoubtedly would, up the ante in our training in direct proportion.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 15, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> Again, I agree, and a corollary occurs to me: in the social context we live in (in the US, anyway), we can't train with the intensity of some previous historical periods, because the lawsuits over training injuries would fly. And we can't go outside the training hall and jump into confrontations in order to test our material/skills, because prosecution would surely ensue.
> 
> But if we were thrown back/forward into a chaotic social context rivaling that in some parts of Asia in the past--even the past century--wherein these issues drop far down the list of governmental/social concerns, and when individual citizens might have to fight for their survival, then we could and undoubtedly would, up the ante in our training in direct proportion.


 
yup, exactly what I was getting at.


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## Makalakumu (Dec 4, 2008)

I wanted to bump this thread up because I checked out these books from the library again.  Also, when I posted this, Exile was on vacation and I'd like to see what he thinks of this.  

I'm going to be making a trip to the Karate Museum.  It's located on Oahu at the Hikari-no Dojo.  Oahu has a long history of Karate.  Many of its dojos trace a history to a time before Funakoshi ever stepped foot in Japan.  

Apparently, at the museum they have a library full of texts that you cannot find anywhere else.  Too bad I don't speak Japanese yet (my daughter is learning faster then me, she can translate).  Anyway, this journey is all part of the work that I want to put into my book on Tang Soo Do.  

When you look at how Funakoshi originally laid out his curriculum before he died, he was explicit in describing Karate as more then just a block/strike art.  A lot of the diagrams that I have before me right now (and this is one of the first versions of this book) show how the moves in the form contain an entire clinching and grappling system.

Some of you may familiar with Kata Guruma.  Does anyone suddenly see an application for He Cho Mahkee?  That is specifically shown in the books I have now.


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## seasoned (Dec 4, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> I wanted to bump this thread up because I checked out these books from the library again. Also, when I posted this, Exile was on vacation and I'd like to see what he thinks of this.
> 
> I'm going to be making a trip to the Karate Museum. It's located on Oahu at the Hikari-no Dojo. Oahu has a long history of Karate. Many of its dojos trace a history to a time before Funakoshi ever stepped foot in Japan.
> 
> ...


 
I see this Kata Guruma evident in Okinawan GoJu kata Seiunchin.


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## DMcHenry (Dec 5, 2008)

> Some of you may familiar with Kata Guruma. Does anyone suddenly see an application for He Cho Mahkee? That is specifically shown in the books I have now.


 
That move is in the Shori-ryu kata Wan-su, or the similar TSD hyung wang-shu, although harder to see.  In Wan-su very distinct grab and put on shoulders - with a turn around and dump.  TSD/wang-shu/empi shows the effort to throw as a jump around in the air landing with the soodo mahkee.

BTW, what exactly is "He Cho Mahkee"?


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## JT_the_Ninja (Dec 5, 2008)

I like the way those old technique names describe the motion of a blocking maneuver, which also gives you a hint as to when/why to use it, and what else it might do. 

maunakumu referred to the lack of the high, middle, low paradigm as "eye-popping," and I agree. But with a system where everything has been standardized, it's not altogether hard to see why that paradigm developed. I remember first having that "eureka" moment in interpreting the Korean move names. It helps to have a simple naming system like that, I guess, when you have to teach it to a lot of people. My favorite "name" for a technique, though, and the one I use most often, is the extensional one --- the physical motion. Anything else is just an approximation. 

As to teaching being the motive for moving away from repetitive moves, I dunno about that...it is a *lot* easier to teach a class where you're just going through drills. Look at most MMA or sport-fighting training...drills. Whenever I did soccer, half of all practices consisted of drills. If you're going to teach something, repetition is an easy and effective way to go, and probably what most people think about when they picture a karate class anyway.

Anyone who's seen Enter the Dragon will remember the scenes of the huge martial arts classes in the courtyards of Han's estate. Ninety per cent of them were doing one thing the whole time: standing and punching. I can imagine it would be easy for Han to maintain a school where all you'd do would be to do basic technique drills over and over. This may, of course, explain the relative ineffectiveness of the majority of his students, but there you go. A martial art is different from a sport in that the focus is not just on getting stronger or getting better. You drill techniques into your body, yes, but you also have to train your mind to use them correctly.

As for DavidCC's proverbial martial artist whose whole training regimen consisted of an hour of pounding the makiwara...I wouldn't mind sparring him. Makiwara give resistance, but they don't attack back or, more importantly, move/dodge/block/counter. If he'd never practiced against another human being (even allowing him to train with different techniques for that daily hour), that's exactly the kind of person you'd *want* to have to fight...he might be able to punch through a block, but if he can't hit you, he can't hurt you. 



On an unrelated note, I'd also like to know what "he cho mahkee" is.


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## JoelD (Dec 5, 2008)

a simple google search brings back the following...

'Spreading' or 'Wedging' Block... No idea what that is, but there ya go.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Dec 5, 2008)

On a related note...tonight's class was exclusively drills...exhausting, but well worth the effort. Training is a balancing act between drilling stuff into your head and training your mind to use that stuff correctly. I hadn't done just a whole class of drills for a while, and it was sort of refreshing, although now my whole body aches...in a good way.


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## Makalakumu (Dec 5, 2008)

DMcHenry said:


> BTW, what exactly is "He Cho Mahkee"?


 
Everyone elses reply pretty much sums up what I would have said.  However, I would like to add that this is one of my pet peeves when it comes to Tang Soo Do.  It's not the art, in particular, its the terminology.  When I talk to other tangsoodoin, often I find that knowing what I'm talking about is hit or miss, when I use Korean terminology.  There is no standardization and the pronounciation of the Korean has gotten so bad that mistakes have become generational.  Tang Soo is in essence, tongue tied.  

On top of this, "what exactly is he cho mahkee," that's a good question.  I learned it as a basic technique at red belt in which we would march up and down the floor spreading our hands so that both arms would spread laterally from our bodies ending extended with both appendages bent perpendicular angles.  What is that supposed to do?

This is why I feel so strongly that picking random moves from a form and practicing them as basics is really missing the point.  I beleive these moves aren't meant to be dissected like that.  It leads to an incorrect analysis that leads to a lot of misconceptions.  The whole term, "spread block" doesn't really make any sense.  What are you spreading?  What are you blocking?  

The answer is that its not "spreading" or "blocking" anything.  It "could" be a lot of things, however.  One of them, IMO, is kata guruma.


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## YoungMan (Dec 6, 2008)

If you practiced Taekwondo or Tang Soo Do 50 years ago in Korea, you would have lived in a post war, semi lawless society where often the law was what you made it.  You're damn right you would have practiced very hard because there was a good chance you were either going to get mugged or attacked by a rival kwan member. You settled scores with your martial art. Best fighter wins.
Today, in our society, there is simply not as much of a reason to be a hardened warrior because our culture is different. Can you get attacked? Sure, but it's not like you have to be on high alert all the time. People practice according to what their needs are.


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## GINGERNINJA (Jan 1, 2009)

"By know, everyone who frequents this forum should know that Shotokan Karate gave birth to the art of TSD. If this is news to you, then take a quick search of this forum for threads on the origin on TSD." maunakuma.

because TANG SOO DO  is not Shotokan ? the horse n carriage gave birth to the DODGE VIPER  ?


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jan 2, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> On top of this, "what exactly is he cho mahkee," that's a good question.  I learned it as a basic technique at red belt in which we would march up and down the floor spreading our hands so that both arms would spread laterally from our bodies ending extended with both appendages bent perpendicular angles.  What is that supposed to do?
> 
> The answer is that its not "spreading" or "blocking" anything.  It "could" be a lot of things, however.  One of them, IMO, is kata guruma.



So...like the series of three moves from sip soo, with arms out to side in a sort of double outside-inside block? I can definitely see the shoulder wheel throw in that...*makes mental note to try it on one of his juniors* 

I also see how the way we execute that move in the form obscures that interpretation. The standard interpretation is just a series of outside-inside block/strikes. We train sometimes with a bongs carried in our elbows (behind our necks) to keep our arms aligned. Always struck me as odd, but I see why you want them in line now -- you could be reaching down to toss someone across your shoulders. 

The only other thing that comes to mind is to use the series to practice using waist rotation, rather than shoulder rotation, to drive a technique. Always a good idea, but it's great to see something else I might not have thought of otherwise. 

Tang Soo!


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## astrobiologist (Jan 10, 2009)

Wow...  this is a deep thread.  It's good to see martial artists everywhere are really figuring out that there is more to the martial art than just kicking and punching.

On the note of something always having to be lost as information is translated from generation to generation.  This is not necessarily the case.  What happens is that some things are lost in translation, others are discontinued due to the fact that they have no real use, and yet other things are added as they are deemed worthy.  

Think about Wing Chun, for instance.  There are some southern shaolin styles which had a remarkable number of techniques and forms.  Most of what they were doing was for exercise and for aesthetics, not for fighting.  Wing Chun is basically everything from those southern chinese styles that worked in fight scenarios.  Everything else was not included in Wing Chun.  So now Wing Chun is an extremely effective style, because so much that was unnessecary for learning self defense was removed.


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## astrobiologist (Jan 10, 2009)

Tang Soo Do, in my opinion, is still a viable, strong art that just needs a little reformation.  Those of us who are taking the time to interpret and study the martial arts know that modern day Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do have become contaminated by competition, baton twirling, flashy techniques, and instructors who are money driven.  It's very unfortunate.  Don't get me wrong.  If someone is completely into that way of playing karate then that's their prerogative, but I won't tell someone who wants to know how to defend themselves from a punch to do a jump 540 back kick.  I enjoy twirling my staff once in a while, jumping over targets and doing handstands, and playing like I did when I was a child, but the Martial Arts are a serious endeavor.  They are our shared human learning for how to keep our bodies and minds strong and for how to stand up for ourselves and for what is right.  When I began learning about the history of martial arts, about Kobujutsu, about Isshin Ryu and Wado Ryu, about Jujitsu and Wing Chun and Aikido, about Arnis, and so on and so forth...  I realized that Tang Soo Do can be a great martial art for real-world defense and character development, but it must continue to evolve from its native form.  Hwang Kee knew a lot, but there was also a lot he didn't know.  Being that TSD is less than a century old, there really isn't a "traditional" TSD to be learned.  The art has not been developed and reworked enough yet.


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## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2009)

JoelD said:


> a simple google search brings back the following...
> 
> 'Spreading' or 'Wedging' Block... No idea what that is, but there ya go.


 

Where you give some one a wedgie lol?


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## Hand Sword (Jan 10, 2009)

How? As the process goes: Student learns and tries to copy teacher. Then student gets more and more comfortable tweaking things due to likes and dislikes, creating their own way. Finally, prominence comes and they take on students and teach their ways. It's just evolution at work.


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## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2009)

Hand Sword said:


> How? As the process goes: Student learns and tries to copy teacher. Then student gets more and more comfortable tweaking things due to likes and dislikes, creating their own way. Finally, prominence comes and they take on students and teach their ways. It's just evolution at work.


 
You weren't answering me were you? Just your post followed my facetious one, I could answer though lol?


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## Makalakumu (Jan 14, 2009)

Since this material comes from the Karate Do Kyohan, it would be reasonable to assume that some Japanese styles still practice basics this way.  Does anyone have any idea which styles still practice these basics?  When I was in the JKA in the late 80s, we didn't do it.


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