# Short form three



## KenpoGirl (Jul 23, 2003)

Heh heh, I have started to learn Short 3.  

You might expect my usual whining and bitching as I learn a new for or set, but alas I have nothing to complain about  :idunno:    I am enjoying the form because I already know the majority of the techniques that are performed within the form.   I'm about half way through it and looking forward to learning the rest.

So Hah!!!  Just when you thought you knew someone, they throw you a curve ball.  hee hee  :boing2:

Anywise the reason for the thread ...... I just wanted your opionions and thoughts on the form any tricks of the trade to smooth it out etc......

Dot
:angel:

P.S.  for those of you disappointed by my lack of whinning.  I will be staring Stance Set 2 and or Finger Set 2 in the not too distant future, so you can expect a revival of my old ways when that day comes.   :rofl:


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## jeffkyle (Jul 23, 2003)

Short form 3 can be a fun form!  Play with the different timing on the form....there is alot you can dig up from it!    Good luck!


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## kenpoevolution (Jul 23, 2003)

Use Short #3 as a guide to how you transition between techniques when you have multiple opponents. Try the form with actual attackers. It is good practice.


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> *P.S.  for those of you disappointed by my lack of whinning.  I will be staring Stance Set 2 and or Finger Set 2 in the not too distant future, so you can expect a revival of my old ways when that day comes.   :rofl: *



How much do you practice outside of the studio? Or how much time do you spend in the studio? You are learning things at a high pace especially this upper level stuff. Learn the material  1 x 1, get it down, practice it until it becomes second nature and then move onto more stuff. As for short 3 make sure your transitions are smooth, take your time while doing it.


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## KenpoGirl (Jul 24, 2003)

Thanks  to everyone for the replies so far.  

Jason, I don't train a lot at home right now (mostly due to space issues, but I train at the school a minimum of 3 days a week for 2 hours or more at a time.  I will be spending more time training at home in the near future because I'm at the point that there isn't enough time to train through all the techques during class.  I am constantly going back and redoing the previous belts so that I don't forget them.  

It may seem like I'm going through these quickly, and at first I probably was because I wanted to so despirately get back up to my belt rank, in the system.  Now that I am training for a new rank I am taking more time to learn and master the techniques.  That being said, I believe I have a very good grasp of everything I know so far, and I have not been pushing my instructor to learn more and faster, we move on when he says it's time.

I thank you for your thoughts, and your advice.  :asian:

Dot


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> *It may seem like I'm going through these quickly, and at first I probably was because I wanted to so despirately get back up to my belt rank, in the system.  Now that I am training for a new rank I am taking more time to learn and master the techniques.  That being said, I believe I have a very good grasp of everything I know so far, and I have not been pushing my instructor to learn more and faster, we move on when he says it's time.*



Cool


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## kenpofist2 (Jul 24, 2003)

Hey Dot,

Short 3 is a great form and its constant flow from one technique to another makes for great sport when performing it.  I agree with having it done on actual opponents, and I'll add that it makes for the easiest form to describe to new student.  Lots of great applications as a teacher and as a student.  Enjoy!:asian:


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 25, 2003)

I thought that SHort Form 3 was done with "Technique Timing".

the timing in which you do the actual self defense techniques at.


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## kenpofist2 (Jul 25, 2003)

Like most things in life, the answer depends on who you talk too.  My teacher showed it at a alternating speed levels.  Some movements were slower than others.  However I was taught and I perform Short and Long 3 at a faster rate than say Short and Long 1.  This is due to, as you've stated, the form is made up of techniques and therefore is done at a faster pace.


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## jeffkyle (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *I thought that SHort Form 3 was done with "Technique Timing".
> 
> the timing in which you do the actual self defense techniques at. *



That can be true!  But even on a technique the timing can be varied, sped up and slowed down, depending on how you want things to turn out.  As the same in Short 3, the timing can be changed on how you want the form to turn out and work for you.


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## kenpofist2 (Jul 25, 2003)

I totally agree Jeff.  :asian:  If your looking to make a form quicker Short and Long 3 are prime candidates for this.  The sets can be speeded up quite a bit and you won't lose too much in the translation.  

"If you rush a miracle, you get a rotten miracle." - Billy Crystal as Miracle Max, Princess Bride.


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## jeffkyle (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpofist2 _
> *I totally agree Jeff.  :asian:  If your looking to make a form quicker Short and Long 3 are prime candidates for this.  The sets can be speeded up quite a bit and you won't lose too much in the translation.
> 
> "If you rush a miracle, you get a rotten miracle." - Billy Crystal as Miracle Max, Princess Bride. *



I didn't mean make the form quicker as a whole, but "rushing" per say.  I meant changing/varying the tempo of the moves.  Kind of like music...It may speed up for a bit, and then slow down for a bit (pretty much what "timing" is defined as; why do i feel like i am repeating myself; lather rinse repeat....lather rinse repeat).  I never meant to hurry up to complete the form so that no one can see what you have done.  
Your movements need to be defined, so that it is clear what your intentions are.  
Not to be rushed as to blur the intent of your actions.


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## kenpofist2 (Jul 25, 2003)

My misunderstanding.


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 25, 2003)

Only do your techniques as fast as you can perform them correctly...


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## kenpo2dabone (Aug 1, 2003)

Here is something to think about or ask your instructor about. It is not just the first form to have actual techniques in it. Short 3 is full of opposites and reverses. It is a large part of what the form was desighned to teach. As you go through it see if you can find them. After I was taught the form my instructor told me to find ten examples of each before he would teach me anymore material. It was th first time I was really forced to pick apart a form. I will have to look back at my notes but I beleive it also completes the universal symbol. It is either short 3 or long three but I will have to look to make sure. 

Salute,

Mike Miller UKF


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 1, 2003)

Uh...weighing in late...above all, bend your knees and get your tootsies turned in, weight on the outside edges of the feet...especially look for cheezy stances in in forward/reverse bows...don't leave out the c-steps near the start...see how low you can drop in the twists...etc,etc...

And good luck with the damn angles. The basics of both sides of this thing took me going on a year...


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## KenpoGirl (Aug 1, 2003)

for the continued good advice.

A friend of mine is a member of the Tatum Assoc., he tells me they do the form on both sides.  I know in some systems you don't learn the left side techniques until later if at all. 

What do you do?

Dot
:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Aug 1, 2003)

We learn the techniques right and left anyway, and the Demo looks great with one person doing the left side, while another pair mirrors him/her, but doing techs on the right side, facing the audience.

MB


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 2, 2003)

Among the many funny jokes that made me want to kill people who could beat me to death, the traditional deal appears to be, get taught the right side...pause, pause...then the instructor says, brightly, "OK, now you figure out the other side. I want to see it next week."

Your buddy's right...I train at Mr. Tatum's in Pasadena (don't tell anybody...I don't want to be harangued about cross-training...), but the woman who taught me got her black through Mr. Tatum, tested and got kicked for her black by the Man himself...and that's how she learned the form.

When I teach, now, I continue the tradition of happy pranksterism with Short 3, a beautiful form...anybody know who wrote it? I've a young student whose version is better than mine...he does Striking Set 1, then the right side, then Striking Set 2, then the left side...eek.

The scariest fast short Short 3 I've seen on video was a) Mr. Parker, b) Frank Trejo...

I, myself, damn near quit because of Short 3...and hell, now it's too late.


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## kevin kilroe (Aug 3, 2003)

this form is also known as the elbow form and the marriage to gravity form. there are also techniques done on the opposite side, showing you what is to come in long 3. do your forms with power and intensity and visualise your opponents.


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## KenpoGirl (Aug 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I, myself, damn near quit because of Short 3...and hell, now it's too late. *



Why's that?  I thought Short 3 was one of the easier ones because you already know the majority of the tech's it just putting them all together?

I appreciate everyones input.

Dot
:asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 4, 2003)

It would seem so, wouldn't it?


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## Michael Billings (Aug 4, 2003)

When some of those techniques are left side (when you do the form on the right) and the variety of angles of attack.  

Learn it.  Then the left side.  Then try facing different walls when you do it (or any other form), now try facing the corner; It gets better when you take the form out to the park and try to do it.  Face different directions, distractions, etc.

It really is a great form, and wins tournaments if you do finger set 1 then go into Short #3.  Who knows, you could test at a camp someday ... a real camp, outdoors, with other classes going on around you.  This would certainly help get you ready for that.

Have fun with it, do it slow, do it fast, do it with a partner, do it solo, do it with your eyes closed.  Wheeeeeee!!!!!!!!


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## michaeledward (Aug 4, 2003)

Are you sure you are still talking about Short Form 3?  I'm not sure if that is a Nike commercial, or an insightment to 'Adult Behavior'.

For the record .... I really like SF3 myself. It is the first 'Short Form' that actually seems short, it was quick to learn, and when performing it, it seems to end quite quick as well.  Seems to me that Short Form 2 took for ever to learn .. and everytime I run it, it just keeps going .. and going.

Peace

Mike


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## Michael Billings (Aug 4, 2003)

What happens by Short 3, is that you have learned how to learn Kenpo.  Both the techniques and forms seem easier at that level.  I have watched it with my students time and time again.  Your repetoire is now sufficient not to be learning new Basics, or even Sentences of Motion.  You can now articulate entire Paragraphs of Motion if not Short stories.  And you are not printing any longer, but writing in cursive.

Lots of factors go into why this "feels" shorter, or at least easier.  Familiarity with most of the techniques is not the least of it.

Oss


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## kenpo2dabone (Aug 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Uh...weighing in late...above all, bend your knees and get your tootsies turned in, weight on the outside edges of the feet...*



Part of your problem with this form, as you stated that it has been difficult for you, might be that you are putting your weight on the outside edges of your feet. It is a common misconception to do so. Students are taught the horse stance which rquires your bum to be tucked under and your knees pushed out over you pinky toes and your feet pointing straight forward. this stance is designed specifically as a training stance to isolate you lower body from your upper body. When you learn you nuetral bow it seems natural to do the same thing. You end up basically taking your horse stance and turning it to the side. You should really feel like you are in starting blocks getting ready to run the 100 yard dash. Your knees should actually be pushed together slightly as in over your big toes and not your pinky toes making you weight feel more like it is on the inside of your feet rather than the outside. Ask your instructor about it. I would be surprised if he/she tells you differently or I can try and be more clear if you wish. Good luck with your training. Depending on the respons I get to this maybe I will start a new thread.

Respectfully,
Salute,

Mike Miller UKF


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 8, 2003)

Mike:

Nope. 'Fraid you've got that backwards. Among other things, observe the "first move," in the form. While it's important not to exaggerate--and that takes some time--it will be difficult to execute the two punches with the weight on the insides of the feet. In fact, this is likely to require adding the dreaded, "and" which in this case would mean stepping forward and then rolling the weight forwards...

Or look at the pivot into a forward bow in Crashing Wings...weight on the inside? Not a great idea, if we examine the most-straightforward application and have a guy dropping onto our left knee...then, look at Circling Wing's reverse bow...weight on the inside of the feet? look at Crossing Talon...

Throughout Short 3, keeping the weight on the insides of the feet would wipe out a bracing angle, put too much weight on a knee...and make movement much more difficult...as far as I can see. 

I might also add that this would wipe out the difference marked by the "inverted," stances in Long 4 and Long 5, where the weight is shifted to the insides of the feet in order to assist in keeping an opponent on the ground pinned...

Thanks, but  from what I can see, I think you're wrong about this one. And as for the horse stance, "isolating," the upper from the lower body...again, no. I was taught, and I teach, that the point is to connect the two...especially with guys, who like karate from the waist up...and, I'm afraid, I think it would be best to start students out trying to make such a connection, such a fusion...kenpo, like all good martial arts, needs to be taught from the ground up.

I agree that eventually the neutral bow should be modified, resembling somewhat the "starter's blocks," idea. But this is very different from learning a form...and, sprinters don't start with their weight on the insides of their feet.


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## kenpo2dabone (Aug 8, 2003)

I have to say that I am very much of the opposite oppinion on this subject from you. I have to tell you that I do all of the techniques that you mentioned as well as the forms using the the neutral bow as I described it and have no problems what so ever. I am not trying to tell you that the way you do it is wrong or anything like that. I posted a new thread on the forum with regard to this matter because I am so curious to see what other people are doing. I was utterly surprised to read that you and I have practicaly polar opposit ways of doing the same stance and we are both Kenpo practitioners and we are both in the advanced belt levels. Well I guess I am assuming that you are at or around the brown or black belt level because you made reference to forms 4 and 5. I learned form 4 as part of my Black belt requirements and 5 for my second degree. I have recently learned form 6 as well. I referenced this thread on the new thread that I started for people to come and read if they want.


Salute,


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 8, 2003)

Uh... try dropping somebody big on your knee with your knees in and your weight on the inside of your feet...or on second thought, really really don't do that. 

I don't quite know what to tell you about this. I did look it up, as I mentioned in the other thread you started. I agree with the modification of stances as you advance, but...

I really kinda hate the status game, but uh...well...since you mentioned it, I'm a little further along (not much), and I train at Larry Tatum's in Pasadena.


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## kenpo2dabone (Aug 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Uh... try dropping somebody big on your knee with your knees in and your weight on the inside of your feet...or on second thought, really really don't do that.  *



I have and I don't have any problems. Such as in Back Breaker. I would be willing to bet that if we took pictures of ourseleves in our neutral bows they would not look much different. They would just feel a little different. You might be picturing the stance the way that I do it in an exagerated fashion. It is not as if I trying to touch my knees together. It is simply that as I let my weight settle into the stance my knees tend to go more twords my big toe versus my pinky toes. Vice versa as well, I might be picturing you over exagerating the way that you do it.  



> _I don't quite know what to tell you about this. I did look it up, as I mentioned in the other thread you started. I agree with the modification of stances as you advance, but... [/B]_


_ 

There is no need to tell me anything it is just making for a good thread I think. 




I really kinda hate the status game, but uh...well...since you mentioned it, I'm a little further along (not much), and I train at Larry Tatum's in Pasadena. [/B]

Click to expand...

 

I was not trying to play a status game at all. I was merely getting to the point that we are both in similar places in our Kenpo Journey as far as rank goes and how I came to that conclusion was based on the forms you mentioned and when I learned them with relation to rank. 

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF_


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 9, 2003)

Well, I gotta go with what Robert said, I'm of the same understanding anyway.   BTW Robert, fill in your profile so there's no guessing game LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## RCastillo (Aug 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *How much do you practice outside of the studio? Or how much time do you spend in the studio? You are learning things at a high pace especially this upper level stuff. Learn the material  1 x 1, get it down, practice it until it becomes second nature and then move onto more stuff. As for short 3 make sure your transitions are smooth, take your time while doing it. *



Geez, would ya quit stealin' my training secrets, and then claiming them to be yours.


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Geez, would ya quit stealin' my training secrets, and then claiming them to be yours. *



That's how I've practiced M.A. for 14 yrs.:asian:


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