# Improving Your Kenpo



## MJS (Mar 5, 2008)

What are some things that you feel are important for improving your Kenpo?  I'm not necessarily talking about taking up another art, but more along the lines of looking at the material you have, and finding ways to improve it for yourself.

I'll start.  There are many things that we can do, but to throw a few out:

Digging deeper into your techniques.  Its one thing to be able to run thru a technique or kata, but its another thing to really have a solid understanding of what you're doing.  

Understanding the basics.  Footwork and stance work are a few things that come to mind here.  Without those all of your material will crumble under you.  Your stances are your foundation IMO, so without that, everything else, such as power, will most likely be lost.

So..what does everyone else think makes their Kenpo better? Looking forward to a good discussion.


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## Big Don (Mar 5, 2008)

*Basics:* If your basics are bad, your techniques will be worse.
*Grafting: *Knowing how to mix your basics up will help in understanding techniques you know and aid in learning new techniques
The single biggest and most important thing for improvement: *Practice* If you don't do it A LOT, you aren't doing it enough.
*Mat time* is also crucial. If you only practice alone, you could do something wrong and not notice, even a small error, once reinforced by hours of practice, will be hard to correct, having others around helps.
Ask questions! The *only* stupid question is one that is unasked.


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## Matt (Mar 5, 2008)

MJS said:


> What are some things that you feel are important for improving your Kenpo?  I'm not necessarily talking about taking up another art, but more along the lines of looking at the material you have, and finding ways to improve it for yourself.
> 
> I'll start.  There are many things that we can do, but to throw a few out:
> 
> ...



Great question - I think this is the kind of thing that forums (fora?) like this could be really good at facilitating due to the breadth and depth of experience here. 

I'll break my list into things that I've done lately, and things I wish I did. 

Lately:
1. Go to graduate school to become certified as a Physical Education teacher. Biomechanics and A&P are your friend. This may not be convenient for most. It sure wasn't for convenient for me. 

2. Stop cluttering my brain with 1.7 gazillion responses to a right hand step through punch. 

3. Break everything I have down with an eye for structure, body mechanics, and relative position to the opponent. 

4. Research the root arts and compare and contrast the techniques with the movements of my forms to enhance the bunkai. 

5. Apply everything. Develop a sequence that brings me (and my students) along a path that moves away from 'punch and stand there' to a wildly unruly style of attack that continues after you've started your technique. Resistance isn't futile, it's essential. 

What I wish I did:

1. Start steps 1-5 above sooner. 

2. Go back in time and *never* point spar. If I was a football coach and trained my team to get near the endzone, and to kick field goals just outside the uprights, and drilled it over and over again, punishing my team if they entered the endzone or kicked a field goal, my career would be largely unsuccessful against other teams that actually played football. If I was training a fighter and taught him/her to stop every time they got a good shot in I would...uh...never mind. 


There's lot's more, but this is a start.


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 5, 2008)

There's some very good stuff here already. Let me add just a thought or two of things that I try to do ... 

Pick one technique, combo/kempo, any portion of any form, grab a partner, ask them to come at you in various ways.

I put them in a fighting stance and ask them to throw jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, both right and left handed ... slowly mind you ... and I try to work the technique to see what works and what doesn't; where I need to adjust my strikes, targets, footwork, etc. Basically making a mental note on what works and what just plain doesn't work. I then have them start grabbing in various ways; wrist, cross-wrist, lapel, double-arm, etc. Again, does it work? Can I make it work, while sticking to the basic concepts and theories of the original movement?

This seemingly works for me. I have been doing this only recently in my career and I believe it has helped me in many ways. First, to understand not to stop. Mistakes will be made, but don't stop, never stop until completion. Secondly, finding what it is our predecessors may have been trying to teach us with the prescribed movements.

Anyway, just a thought or two. Hopefully you all will find it at least interesting, if not helpful.


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## Matt (Mar 5, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> There's some very good stuff here already. Let me add just a thought or two of things that I try to do ...
> 
> Pick one technique, combo/kempo, any portion of any form, grab a partner, ask them to come at you in various ways.
> 
> ...



I agree wholeheartedly and actually spend a lot of time in class doing this very thing. Even if it doesn't work for a given technique, you've learned:

1. That it doesn't work (it's a lot better to find that out while practicing in the dojo than some other time). 
 and 
2. Hopefully, why it doesn't work. 

A lot can be learned from a failed technique.


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## marlon (Mar 5, 2008)

MJS said:


> What are some things that you feel are important for improving your Kenpo? I'm not necessarily talking about taking up another art, but more along the lines of looking at the material you have, and finding ways to improve it for yourself.
> 
> I'll start. There are many things that we can do, but to throw a few out:
> 
> ...


 
Great question.  The first thing is to get hungry, almost to the point of obsession (a controlled obsession if you will).  Then focus on body alignment, positioning( vis a vis ones self and in relation to the other), breath and timing / coordination) sound like how i was taught to use my forms).  Work the depth of your techniques and forms and make it work slow.  Ed Parker jr said, if you can't do it slow, then you can't do it"...i liked that very much.  Having fun is important...and vital is banging things out with a partner who wants to help you get better by not making it easy for you at all.  Lastly find your own words to understand the lessons of kempo, question it, recognize other peoples criticisms of kempo and legitimately find answers to those criticisms NO MATTER WHAT THAT MEANS (at least for yourself), find your own understanding, lest it forever remain, someone else's art.  GROW

respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (Mar 5, 2008)

Matt?  " Never point spar"....i love you , man!!!!

marlon


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## Matt (Mar 5, 2008)

marlon said:


> Matt?  " Never point spar"....i love you , man!!!!
> 
> marlon



Man -I remember our shodan test, seeing you coming with crossover side kicks, and thinking, " I'm just too tired to get out of the way". Thud. 

Sparring = good. 

Point sparring = bad. 

Good times!

Matt


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## LawDog (Mar 6, 2008)

* Make sure that all of your basics and material head into one combined focal point.
* Practice your basics,
  1) In the air, this will help develop full extension and will develop a fast retraction,
  2) Against a bag or strike board, this will help develop impacting focus and will develop impact penetration.
* Advanced techniques are nothing more than basic moves combined. If you have a problem with an advanced move you should break down the advanced technique into it's basic components. Practice these basic components seperatly then put it back together.
* All of your material should reflect the way that you actually spar / fight. Many train by using material that shows one way of fighting than spar another way.
Just a few from my point of view.
:supcool:


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## marlon (Mar 6, 2008)

[* All of your material should reflect the way that you actually spar / fight. Many train by using material that shows one way of fighting than spar another way.
Just a few from my point of view.
:supcool:[/quote]

I like this and forms should also reflect the way you would actually fight.  Shihan Ingargiola teaches this way.  I do this will all forms except the pinans. I keep the traditional way for them..no real good reason why except that they are not really kempo forms...

respectfully,
Marlon


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 6, 2008)

MJS said:


> What are some things that you feel are important for improving your Kenpo? I'm not necessarily talking about taking up another art, but more along the lines of looking at the material you have, and finding ways to improve it for yourself.
> 
> I'll start. There are many things that we can do, but to throw a few out:
> 
> ...


An increase in the study of directional harmony.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 6, 2008)

Matt said:


> Man -I remember our shodan test, seeing you coming with crossover side kicks, and thinking, " I'm just too tired to get out of the way". Thud.
> 
> Sparring = good.
> 
> ...


Point sparring may be overdone, but its an important ingredient.
Sean


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## stickarts (Mar 6, 2008)

Never stop asking questions. Always have someone with more experience than yourself as a mentor.


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## RevIV (Mar 6, 2008)

marlon said:


> Hahaha, sorry marlon, im just teasing a little here since we do the same system, but our pinans are soooo Kempo... the angles and slight movements of the pinans may resemble the Heiens, but they themselves have been modified like the kata's to represent the system.  A karate guy would look at some of the forms and ask why they were so flowy?(is that a word)..  But on a real side, i 100% agree that we should fight the way we train.
> Jesse


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## Matt (Mar 6, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Point sparring may be overdone, but its an important ingredient.
> Sean



I disagree. I think sparring is crucial, but from everything I've learned about fighting, about behavior, about motor learning, and physical education, *point sparring is at best a useless but entertaining game of tag*. 

I do spar, and did point spar, and it took quite a bit of 'retraining' to get past it. That doesn't mean you need to brawl aimlessly, but successful transfer of skills needs a much better approximation than 'tag'.


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## LawDog (Mar 7, 2008)

*point sparring is at best a useless but entertaining game of tag*. 

I agree


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## LawDog (Mar 7, 2008)

Matt: point sparring is at best a useless but entertaining game of tag[/B]. 

I agree


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## marlon (Mar 7, 2008)

RevIV said:


> Hahaha, sorry marlon, im just teasing a little here since we do the same system, but our pinans are soooo Kempo... the angles and slight movements of the pinans may resemble the Heiens, but they themselves have been modified like the kata's to represent the system. A karate guy would look at some of the forms and ask why they were so flowy?(is that a word).. But on a real side, i 100% agree that we should fight the way we train.
> Jesse


 

Jesse, you are absolutely right about our pinans.  A friend of mine who owns a kyokushin school did not recognize our pinans at first, and some of my students had a hard time recognizing his movements as pinans.  His movements are much more crisp / staccato yet with a flow of thier own.  Very hard power movement oriented.  However, i did note that his applications reflected mostly hard power moves whereas i can easily find the hard power moves but also much much more flow attacks and much more joint locks and chokes and grabs that i can use in the context of fighting and not just demonstrating.  He is a very good martial artist and very dedicated to his chosen art...it is just vey different from kempo and self defense. 

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## MJS (Mar 7, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> There's some very good stuff here already. Let me add just a thought or two of things that I try to do ...
> 
> Pick one technique, combo/kempo, any portion of any form, grab a partner, ask them to come at you in various ways.
> 
> ...


 
Great idea!!!  Its always good IMO, to throw in a variety of things in your training.  That way, we won't be so programmed to do things just one way.  This forces us to react.


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## MJS (Mar 7, 2008)

marlon said:


> Great question. The first thing is to get hungry, almost to the point of obsession (a controlled obsession if you will). Then focus on body alignment, positioning( vis a vis ones self and in relation to the other), breath and timing / coordination) sound like how i was taught to use my forms). Work the depth of your techniques and forms and make it work slow. Ed Parker jr said, if you can't do it slow, then you can't do it"...i liked that very much. Having fun is important...and vital is banging things out with a partner who wants to help you get better by not making it easy for you at all. Lastly find your own words to understand the lessons of kempo, question it, recognize other peoples criticisms of kempo and legitimately find answers to those criticisms NO MATTER WHAT THAT MEANS (at least for yourself), find your own understanding, lest it forever remain, someone else's art. GROW
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Great points about the body position and alignment.  Its amazing how fast your technique will go south if those things are not included.  I also like your suggestion of working with someone who doesnt take it easy on you.  Nothing irks me more, than when I work with someone and they never offer up any resistance.  Sure its one thing to go slow in the beginning, but after a while, things need to be picked up a bit.


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## MJS (Mar 7, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Point sparring may be overdone, but its an important ingredient.
> Sean


 


Matt said:


> I disagree. I think sparring is crucial, but from everything I've learned about fighting, about behavior, about motor learning, and physical education, *point sparring is at best a useless but entertaining game of tag*.
> 
> I do spar, and did point spar, and it took quite a bit of 'retraining' to get past it. That doesn't mean you need to brawl aimlessly, but successful transfer of skills needs a much better approximation than 'tag'.


 
I've done both point and continuous, but I focus more on the continuous.  Point sparring isnt necessarily all bad, but if you're not careful, it can IMO, develop bad habits.  People tend to rely on a few techniques, and if they make contact, the match is stopped, and restarted.  I've seen point matches won by nothing more than someone leaping at the other person with a backfist to the head.  But thats it.  No counter, no pressure from the other person.  Now, transfer that same techinque to continuous sparring, and you will be in for a surprise. 

But hey, to each his own.  Everyones goals are different.  For me, my goals are best met with continuous.  My footwork, punches, kicks and overall technique gets more of a workout that way.  I can also include close range strikes as well as clinch work.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 7, 2008)

Matt said:


> I disagree. I think sparring is crucial, but from everything I've learned about fighting, about behavior, about motor learning, and physical education, *point sparring is at best a useless but entertaining game of tag*.
> 
> I do spar, and did point spar, and it took quite a bit of 'retraining' to get past it. That doesn't mean you need to brawl aimlessly, but successful transfer of skills needs a much better approximation than 'tag'.


So being first is unimportant? Try point sparing with a live blade. You need to look up the term "useless".
Sean


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## Matt (Mar 7, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> So being first is unimportant? Try point sparing with a live blade. You need to look up the term "useless".
> Sean



If the first shot is to my pinky or the back of my live hand because the person was rewarded for points and never practiced any finishes, and my counter is to their throat, then yes, being first is unimportant. Live blade sparring is not a particularly good example as point sparring folk wouldn't do that either.

Consider instead a 'goal based' spar where you  train effective finishes and evaluate the minor cuts on the way in. If you train to 'get that first quick cut' and stop, you are training to be killed.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 11, 2008)

Matt said:


> If the first shot is to my pinky or the back of my live hand because the person was rewarded for points and never practiced any finishes, and my counter is to their throat, then yes, being first is unimportant. Live blade sparring is not a particularly good example as point sparring folk wouldn't do that either.
> 
> Consider instead a 'goal based' spar where you train effective finishes and evaluate the minor cuts on the way in. If you train to 'get that first quick cut' and stop, you are training to be killed.


Defanging is crap; got it.
Sean


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## Matt (Mar 11, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Defanging is crap; got it.
> Sean



Defanging my live hand certainly is. Defanging my blade hand? Maybe it's a viable strategy, but it's not the end of the encounter. It's one tool, and I don't think it's a really high percentage / high value tool to base an encounter on. 

It's revered in 'dueling arts', and I've spent time 'dueling' with some Pekiti Tirsia friends, but it's pretty absent in their 'self-defense' portions.  I don't have a definitive answer for you that I can present, other than they didn't do it too much except when sparring. 

Besides, if you're going to train 'defanging' why would you use point sparring to do it. Why not just get the training blades out and work defanging?

______
Edit -  hey my 400th post. I'm a brown belt. Whee!


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## marlon (Mar 11, 2008)

it is not kempo but George P Alland always teaches disarms.  In fact he says it is one of the chief complaints he get when he or his students 'spar' with other kali people..."you / he took my weapon!!"... the hidden message is "hey, no fair"  and he teaches people to train with real blades and live, i worked with him for a few hours...actually more like he taught and drilled me for a few hours  and then showed me how much i did not get the next day (it was fantastic)...this guy is all about teaching and being authentic and he lets you know when the crap you tried can get you killed
Just some thoughts

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Matt (Mar 11, 2008)

marlon said:


> it is not kempo but George P Alland always teaches disarms.  In fact he says it is one of the chief complaints he get when he or his students 'spar' with other kali people..."you / he took my weapon!!"... the hidden message is "hey, no fair"  and he teaches people to train with real blades and live, i worked with him for a few hours...actually more like he taught and drilled me for a few hours  and then showed me how much i did not get the next day (it was fantastic)...this guy is all about teaching and being authentic and he lets you know when the crap you tried can get you killed
> Just some thoughts
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



I think disarms are an integral part of that kind of training, and if they present themselves, then by all means take them. I think that's a slightly different issue, unless I'm misunderstanding T.O.D.

If I'm interpreting his point correctly (and definitely feel free to straighten me out, I don't want to put words in your mouth), the quick in- quick out / non-commitment style of fighting favored in point sparring builds effective speed which can then be used in knife v. knife duels for 'defanging', i.e. damaging the weapon hand as to make it non-functional. Additionally, 'defanging' is a fundamentally good strategy for weapon v. weapon encounters. 

This is slightly different from a 'disarm' which to me constitutes removal of the weapon from the attacker by various means during a counter. 

I feel that defanging plays the best role in an asymmetrical weapon encounter (stick v knife) as you can take advantage of your strength (range)  hopefully neutralizing his advantage (ouch pointy). For run of the mill uses, I don't think it is a strategy to base my response on. 

For knife on knife, I would tend to think that any minor target damage (defanging, outside of forearm, etc.) would only be a transitional move on the way to a major target with the hopes of avoiding a drawn out duel.


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## marlon (Mar 12, 2008)

Hi Matt,
it is just something that came to mind when i read the post.  i feel that the point sparring defanging that you mentioned seems pretty non functional, but disarms are part of the basics as long as you do not get overly focused on the pointy part (weapon) and forget the attacker.  Greg P Alland made convincing arguements that a little difference can make all the difference in the moment

respectfully,
Marlon


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## MJS (Mar 12, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Defanging is crap; got it.
> Sean


 
Sean, can you expand on this a little more please?

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 12, 2008)

MJS said:


> Sean, can you expand on this a little more please?
> 
> Mike


Any first contact will effect the timing of your opponent. Defanging isn't just injuring the hand of a weilding knife attacker. Its drawing first blood. In a knife battle some people just can't help but be consumed by the fact that they are bleeding and then compound the fact that even though they might not feel it yet, there hand can't hold the knife as well and perhaps its getting slippery. With that, even successfull opening with bad technique can lead to opportunities for good technique. In fact all kenpo techs are based on minor, minor, major timing set. Defanging is built into the system.
Sean


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## Matt (Mar 12, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Any first contact will effect the timing of your opponent. Defanging isn't just injuring the hand of a weilding knife attacker. Its drawing first blood.



Ohhhh, that's a bit broader than I was thinking. Thanks for expanding. 



> In a knife battle some people just can't help but be consumed by the fact that they are bleeding and then compound the fact that even though they might not feel it yet, there hand can't hold the knife as well and perhaps its getting slippery. With that, even successfull opening with bad technique can lead to opportunities for good technique.



Okay, I think this is a valid idea, but I disagree with the premise that point sparring will help with this. I'll expand a bit. 



> In fact all kenpo techs are based on minor, minor, major timing set. Defanging is built into the system.
> Sean



I absolutely agree here, which is why I hold point sparring in such low esteem. First, many traditional 'defanging' targets are 'pointless' in point sparring. You are expected to bypass minor targets and are often forbidden to do much to manipulate or control them. So what happens are 'first' shots that leave you open for 'second' shots that are fatal, but don't count because you were 'first'. If it somehow rewarded 'firsts' that were followed by another minor and a major, then it might be useful. Essentially, it's just training you not to use the defanging built into the techniques that you mention. So the vast majority move in, try for first, and try to get out, never using a technique they have learned for self defense.


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## Josh Oakley (Apr 2, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> So being first is unimportant? Try point sparing with a live blade. You need to look up the term "useless".
> Sean



Still standing at the end of an encounter is what's important. You can still get cut even if you get there first. If you make the first cut and then stop, you'd be training for death. You still gotta finish the fight.


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## Matt (Apr 2, 2008)

Josh Oakley said:


> Still standing at the end of an encounter is what's important. You can still get cut even if you get there first. If you make the first cut and then stop, you'd be training for death. You still gotta finish the fight.




You know, it took me several posts and a bunch of paragraphs, and I still didn't put it as well as you did.


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## Hawke (Apr 2, 2008)

I now train mainly in FMA and Silat, but still use Kenpo concepts.

Power generations:
If possible combine as many concepts into that strike.
-3D Strike
-Fitting
-Marriage of Gravity
-Torque 
-Guided Collision
-Purposeful Compliance 
-Bracing Angles
-etc

So when practicing a technique I think how many ways can I stack these power generation concepts into each step as I flow from one attack into another.


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## marlon (Apr 5, 2008)

Josh Oakley said:


> Still standing at the end of an encounter is what's important. You can still get cut even if you get there first. If you make the first cut and then stop, you'd be training for death. You still gotta finish the fight.


 
if you get cut first and then stop, you will also be dead.  Finish the fight even if you are bleeding, train not to get cut and if you do get cut do not get cut in a vital place.

marlon


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