# How long to Black Belt?



## Drunken Master

Some styles appear to promote students very quickly.

So I just wanted to find out what style you are practising and how long it takes to achieve a black belt.


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## deadhand31

The poll needs to be a little more flexible in selecting ballots.

That said, if you try to rip through the testings at the minimum wait in my school, you might be able to get a black belt in 2 1/2 years. However, not many people do this. Generally, we get our black belts after 3 1/2 years. 

I know that I'll try to be deputy black as long as possible. Maybe until the point where my instructor drags me kicking and screaming to the testing.......


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## girlychuks

Our school has recently been bought out by new instructors, who have really battened down the hatches on who gets a black belt. We are now required to learn a soft art, such as Tai Chi Chuan or aikido to complement our kempo training. Their rationale for this is that they want only patient, well- rounded students to come out of their school.
Our top brown belt has been in the system for 3 1/2 years now, and is still about a year away from testing for his black.  I have been in 6 months and I am the fourth belt up in a ten belt order. I have been told I will be here awhile. 
This is in a Villari's school.


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## Shinzu

i think testing cycles should be done away with.  students should be promoted to the next rank when they are ready and prepared.

with this said it will usually take a student around 3 years in TSD, but that also depends on their personal martial growth.

we refuse to hand out black belts as others schools may do.

it is an honor to be promoted to any rank and the student should know that he/she worked hard to deserve it.


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## Dronak

If I'm not mistaken, Chinese martial arts traditionally don't have belt rankings and I think Shinzu has touched upon why.  I think it's because they want the emphasis to be on simply learning and improving without worrying, "when will I get to the next level?"  Levels are nice in that they do provide a measure of progress.  People like to be able to see how far they've come.  The potential problem comes when the focus shifts from learning the material to gaining another level.  That change in mentality can affect your learning because by being so focused on getting to the next level you may not be as focused on learning everything properly.  And people do learn at different speeds.  People shouldn't be in a rush to advance just because a few of their friends did, say.  When they are ready, they'll advance, too.  They shouldn't push.  I think the reason Chinese martial arts traditionally don't have belt rankings is for that reason -- to keep the focus on simply learning the material as best you can without worrying about when you're going to reach the next level.

That being said, I already have a black belt.    Our teacher said something about how CMAs traditionally have no rankings, so belt color doesn't matter.  He said black doesn't get as visibly dirty as quickly, so we all have black belts as part of our uniforms.    They're nice ones, too, thicker in the center for some added support and to help keep it flat.  He got them from Taiwan for us.


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## hapkido_mgd

I think it all really depends on your school. I know of one school that does what Shinzu wants: They don't have a testing cycle, they only promote when they feel the student is ready. The people that go there are happy with this, so who am I to complain about it. 

My school is on a two month testing cycle and once a year for Black belts. This is a good thing for me because it helps me set my goals. Even after a year of Hapkido and 2 years in the military I still need help on keeping focus!!  

See what I mean? Back to the original subject. It can take between 3 to 3.5 years for a student to get their Black belt at my school. Sorry for rambling.

:asian:


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## Despairbear

Interesting, in my dojo I thought we advanced pretty quick but takes between 5-10 years before you are allowed to test for a Shodan (black belt). 



Despair Bear


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## arnisador

In Modern Arnis it's traditionally been possible to advance fairly rapidly (two years if you're at a school, a very variable four years if you're just going to camps). I started a thread on this in the Modern Arnis forum but it has not received any responses.


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## tshadowchaser

First no one tests for Black in my school until their 16, it used to be 18 but for whatever reason the age limit has been lowered.
It takes around 10 years to reach Black.
If you already are verry expeenced and have a Black in another system you could possibly makeit in 5-6 years
Shadow


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## Shinzu

too many say "you will have your black belt in 3 years".

what if a student is a slow learner?  you are giving them false hope and information.  i want to develop and advance at my own speed.

that's what the arts are about anyway... developing oneself.

a rank or belt color is a good reminder for people to remember where they are in the spectrum of things, but too often they get caught up in the whole "black belt glory" that they actually miss the whole concept of training.

out on the street your opponent is not gonna care what belt you are.  the true rank we possess is inside each of us.  have faith in your skills and know that they will work when you need them.  train hard and the rest will come in time.

don't be worried how long it takes to get there, but enjoy the journey.  it is more fun that way.

the true "black belt spirit" comes from within. it does not come from the color around your waist.


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## Turner

I strongly disagree with the concept of having a minimum required time to obtain a certain rank. I understand that it is there so that the student can get a certain amount of experience with the techniques of the current level before moving up, but each individual learns and obtains experience at their own speed and if they are able to demonstrate their knowledge and ability quicker than the average person, they should be allowed to test quicker than the average person.

I took Tang Soo Do for approximately two years and obtained my green belt extremely fast because I had seen all of the forms before in Goju-Ryu Karate. I was allowed to get the rank quickly because of the experience in a similar art, but after I started moving into the unfamiliar territory the whole minimum time requirement kicked in.

When it comes to the martial arts, I am fairly quick. If I have a healthy body and mind, I can pick up a technique or form after just watching it once or twice. I know how the body moves and by using my imagination I can experience the technique or form and get a good grasp of it without ever having practiced it. I might require a few minor adjustments, but overall I've done pretty good. So I would say that I've got the ability to advance quicker than the average person.

In this Tang Soo Do class, I was just this little two stripped green belt who had all of the red belts and some of the black belts coming to me to ask them how to do their forms, one-step-sparring, and self-defense techniques. I had all of the required information memorized up to around 3rd Dan. I was being held back because of this time restriction. Of course, I was still learning the advanced techniques so not many will understand why I feel I was held back... take note that I say I memorized the information up to 3rd Dan. Memorized is very different than internalized. I've internalized all of the techniques up to the 1st Dan so that even now, several years after I've last practiced them, I still know and can demonstrate them. The techniques from 2nd and 3rd Black I haven't memorized... Primarily because I wasn't allowed to practice them in the class where they could be internalized.

I now teach Dragon Kenpo. I don't have any set requirements for belt promotion nor do I even test a student for rank. When he/she demonstrates they have the ability and knowledge to move up, they are moved up. They might provide a demonstration to prove to themselves that they deserve the rank, but there is no test.


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## Shinzu

i applaud your philosoply turner. i think that time restrictions do hinder certain students that would advance more quickly.

i do think there should be a time frame on dan levels though.  this rank does require more than colored belt levels and should be looked differently.


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## Rob_Broad

I say it takes as long as it takes, by putting time limits you cheapen things.  I took 6 and a half yrs to get my black belt but I had more teaching hours logged in than most 3rd degree balck belts by that time.  I wanted to make sure I knew the material not just had the pretty belt.


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## kickyou

In response to the minimum time before advancing to the next rank.I agree that it should be individualized especially when a school first opens you have this whole class full of white belts and all of them have different levels of ability it is not fair to hold the students with better ability back because of restrictions about minimum time.I feel that this may very well be why we lose alot of people at white belt level.


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## kickyou

I forgot to mention my stance on age requirements.I have a problem with minimum age requirements also because it allows someone's juniors to become their seniors just because the junior has not been on this earth long enough.I have witnessed how this worked out badly when a 13 yr old 1st Dan who should have been a 2nd Dan was treated badly by someone who passed them in rank due to this person's age.The comment that was made was "I am YOUR senior now so you will address me a sir at all times" I heard this comment and I just happened to be the senior 2nd Dan at this school and went up and told the individual that made this comment "Well I am your Senior and since you like to be disrespectful to other black belts then you can give me 100 pushups for each of your Dan ranks and then you can give me 100 push ups for being disrespectful and from now on you can refer to me as Mam" Needlees to say this individual did not push their rank around anymore when I was around.


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## Chiduce

I tend to agree with both sides here. Although some students progress slower at say, the beginning basics does not say that they may in the future absord  the material like a sponge! I try to get my students to become consistent in their martial studies. This consistency of material intake opens the door for the students to absorb the system's studies on higher consistant rates. Thus, a steady stream of improvement evolves and the student is in control of their own learning curve. Thus, each student can not only progress at their own rate; but their rates of progression become directly proportional  to the material absorbed, retained and applied creatively. The last element of creativity puts each student along basically the same plane of progress. Since, i teach a specific and different animal qi gong creative methodology to each individual student. The since of competition among them does not exist, in winning my favor!        <Br>                                                                                                 I also teach my version of DK or Clandestine Black Dragon Kenpo Karatejutsu. My students will usually obtain the rank of Shodan within 15 to 24 months. This depends on whether or not they can express themselves in written, verbal,  specific animal creative street combative skill, and creative instructing! As far as myself, it took me a combination of 21 years practice and application in matsumura seito shorin ryu, clandestine combatives, combat judo, and kung fu discipleship combined with another 14 months of kenpo training to reach the rank of Shodan! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## hapkido_mgd

> _Originally posted by Shinzu _
> 
> *the true "black belt spirit" comes from within. it does not come from the color around your waist. *



Very true.


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## Kirk

I dunno ... I've met some m.a.ists that will get their gi's to crack
when doing basics.  The strict movement and execution of even
the simple kicks, strikes and blocks are beyond perfect.  I kinda 
always thought that I'd be able to do that by the time I earned
black.  If I can't, there'll be a little bit of disapointment there.   
Before any of you say that having this ability doesn't mean you
can fight, I know, I know.  But you'd think that one would have
such a strong ability with the basics that they could accomplish
this.  And, I also realize there's plenty more things one should
be able to do to earn the honor of a b.b., I'm just listing one.


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## arnisador

If anyone is a 2nd dan and hasn't learned respect allready, something's wrong I'd say. I also dislike the idea of the military-style use of "Sir" even from a shodan to a nidan.

To those who say there should be no minimum time tin grade requirements: What if a student from a similar but different art comes to your art and learns very quickly--should there be _any_ minimum time to black belt, say? Would you feel comfortable giving a black belt to someone after only 3 months, for example?


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## Battousai

In my school (karate aiki jitsu style) it takes anywere from 2 years to 5 to get to black. This range is due to instructor and student. Some instructors teach really slowly, others teach really fast. My instructor tends to be the fastest teacher in my system. 
 For me I like the fast teacher. It allows students who really put energy into the class to grow faster and faster. Those who don't put as much energy into the class grow at the normal rate of other instructors in our system. 
 From my perspective, I feel bad for students of some other teachers. I've been in the system half as long as some and know between the same amount of material to almost twice as much.
 As far as the teaching quality goes, my instructor seeks to impart as much as possible as fast as possible to those that pay attention. To those that don't seem to be as interested he sort of shuts off some of the teaching. I've seen him do stuff in a basic class and then have to wait 6 years to see him teach that same thing he did back then. He sort of cycles through a huge mass of things. Sometimes he does things with white belts that I've never even seen before, myself being an instructor now. Its really cool to be learning new stuff even in basic classes. 
 As far as progression of ranks go, my school goes with the traditional menkyo system. We have 4 menkyos total, 2 to 5 years for first, 6 to 10 or so for second, 15 to 20 or so for 3rd, and lots longer for 4th. It seems knowledge content is incremented exponentially per rank. Most lengths of years are enforced. 
There was a guy who got all of the stuff he needed down at a basic level for 2nd, at only 2 years of study. He wasn't allowed to be promoted to 2nd for at least 6 years of total training, so he quit (in my opinion). Sometimes the time requirements make sure people really care about learning more then rank. And plus to get rank time is really important to internalize, and really start to understand things at a real level beyond simple movements.


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## TLH3rdDan

ok i dont believe in the testing cycle thing i think that is just a way to collect more money... i have a minimum amount of time required for each belt before the student is allowed to test... for example i reguire them to spend 4 months as a white belt before testing for a yellow belt no one tests before then however some people take longer than 4 months it just depends on how fast they pick up material... personally i feel that the test is more of a formality and a way to see how they perform under pressure than anything else... i already know they will pass before i give them the test date...


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *If anyone is a 2nd dan and hasn't learned respect allready, something's wrong I'd say. I also dislike the idea of the military-style use of "Sir" even from a shodan to a nidan.
> 
> To those who say there should be no minimum time tin grade requirements: What if a student from a similar but different art comes to your art and learns very quickly--should there be any minimum time to black belt, say? Would you feel comfortable giving a black belt to someone after only 3 months, for example? *


 You present a very good question here! I have only one Black Belt which came to me from another system. He is in his mid 50's and his progression within the last month and a half has been nothing less than exceptional> I started him at 3rd Degree Brown and he is ready for second. It has been about 5 months since he started as 3rd brown. In my system, the brown belts are required to write 3 thesises concerning their art; it's execution of street combat motion and technical application! He is on his last thesis and will be conferred 2nd brown with the next several weeks after testing. His overall martial abilities and combative skills has increased 2 fold within this period. So, i would disagree with setting a time for testing, yet agree with if the progression is constant and productive; then i would not have a problem with conferring the next rank! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## kickyou

I agree that if someone is a 2nd dan and does not know how to be respectful something is wrong.But every once and a while you get that individual who seems to let their rank go to their head.You know the ones I am talking about they were the quiet somewhat mek student during their colored belt ranks but once they became a black belt they had the complete Dr. Jekell and Mr. Hyde tranformation.


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## disciple

I think the belt color really doesn't matter as it does nothing to help you in a fight 
I have seen some schools that offer a black belt after 6 mo for the reason that anything below the black belt is only basic stuff like kicking, rooting, etc. They teach forms after you get black belt.
On the other hand I have also seen some school that try to hold onto the students too long to get the money out of them 


salute

:asian:


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## fist of fury

Ours a at least a minimum of 3 1/2 years. We have no belt tests when you are ready and have put in a minimum amout of time you get your promotion nocharge. the only time you are charged is when you get a new belt then you pay for the cost of the belt.


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## Toasty

Here is what i think is a related question. 
I read somewhere recently that Joe Lewis, in his style {Joe Lewis Karate i believe he calls it} has only promoted like 2 black belts in 10 years. {these numbers may not be exact, but you get the point i hope}.
to me that makes no sense as it only took him a whopping 9 months [i've also heard 7] to earn his black belt.

Any thoughts?



thanks
Rob
P.S.  I think Mr. Norris was the first "video black-belt" as when he was stationed back in the States he would film himself doing forms and the other requirements to send back to his instructors in Korea for his 2nd & 3rd dans i believe.


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## vincefuess

I spent six years earning my black belt in American Kenpo, and while I will admit I dragged my *** a bit in the earlier belts, I BUSTED my *** the last three years of my training!  I all but LIVED at the school.  I taught, I trained, and I trained some more.  It was my life at the time.  Sheesh, and I still didn't feel I was ready when I tested- but then I guess you never do!


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## Despairbear

I have a hard time beliving that anyone can reach the mental as well a physical requirements for a black belt in as little as 0-5 years. It is my belife that a black belt is a teaching rank and that teaching other in your style requires more than knowlage of how to go threw the motions. An intrinsic understanding of the nauture of an art is difficult thing to obtain but is nessisary to be able to teach. Then again a black belt is just a peice of cloth and it does not confer any ablilitys. I feel that wearing a black belt after a few months/years of basic training is no differant than wearing a medal of honor or purple heart even thought you have never been in the military.


Despair Bear


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## Kirk

I think the definition of black belt has changed.  Wasn't there a
time when there was no degrees of b.b? It was just b.b?  Vince
talked in another thread about the likes of Pat Burleson and 
such ... these guys were in full contact tournaments kickin' butt
and taking names as brown belts!  And they had eons of time
studying the arts.  I bet if you could draw a graphic 
representation of the average number of years it took to get a
black belt starting from the 50's to present.  That it'd pretty much
be a reverse tapering effect.  There's no doubt that either the
art, or the ranking system has been watered down.  Yesterday's
b.b. is probably the equivalent of a 5th degree b.b. nowadays.
The problem is that most people hold the same image of a b.b.
of yesterday, which is simply not the case.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *I think the definition of black belt has changed.  Wasn't there a
> time when there was no degrees of b.b? It was just b.b?  *



I don't think so, no. I think Jigaro Kano put the degrees in from the beginning.


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## vincefuess

People like Joe Lewis and Mike Stone got their black belts in matters of months- but they are definitely unique individuals!  And I believe Bill Wallace got his pretty quick, too.

According to my brother, Demetrius Havanas "sandbagged" at brown belt for a year or so because he was enjoying being the baddest brown belt that ever walked- until they would no longer let him compete as a brown belt!!!  Then he became the baddest black belt around, until his death in a plane crash.

They were just bad boys back then.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> 
> *According to my brother, Demetrius Havanas "sandbagged" at brown belt for a year or so because he was enjoying being the baddest brown belt that ever walked*



I've heard of BJJ players doing this for competetive advantage as well.


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## Shinzu

i can not comment on other schools, but i know at mine that in order to wear the black belt you must earn it.  it is not given away like candy.

if you are not ready then you don't test.  and if you dont know your stuff, then you will not pass.

it is a persons own growth speed that will determine when he/she reaches their bb level. i dont agree that you can not be ready for this level within a couple of years of training.

i know people that can prove that theory wrong.


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## Kyle

In BJJ it usually takes 8 to 10 years for black-belt.  It is a rare individual who does it faster.

    - Kyle


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## KumaSan

Like BJ Penn?


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## Kyle

Yes, exactly.  He's the fastest I've ever heard of, about 4 years.  Training 4 to 6 hours a day, 6 days a week the whole time on top of his natural talents.  Truly amazing.

    - Kyle


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## KumaSan

Yeah, he's one of those guys that when people call him a "phenom" you have to agree. He's amazing. I will be lucky to ever get to black in BJJ at the rate I'm going...


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## Stickboxer

First-time poster. Please bear with me.

I've had the "unfortunate" experience of training in styles, systems, and methods that don't utilize belt levels. You develop skill and spirit, not earn rank or certificates. You get better. That's it.

I've decided, however, to use belts not only so that my students have clear goals, but so I can glance at them and know what they have learned and how they should be able to perform at their given level.

My students can advance when they've reached certain degrees of technical knowledge, physical attribute development, and the like. Additionally, there are time requirements in the form of both total hours logged at their level AND minimum amount of months to have passed. That way, people cant go too fast, yet those who go slow (whether they be hard-learners or part-time students due to other obligations) can still participate at their own speed.

For example, Phase One students in my school must put in at least 25 hours over at least six months. With two class hours available per week for this level, they need come once a week to make their requirements. FYI: Phase Two students must come to two of the three available classes per week; Phase Three learners need to attend three of the four open classes each week.

When a newer student shows a great deal of skill, likely from previous training in a similar style, I look to see if senior students and assistant instructors agree that the newer student should be allowed to accelerate in rank testing.

When that happens, I take away the minimum months requirements and allow the newer student to pass as fast as one could possibly take the needed number of classes. For example, a Phase One student could in theory take two classes per week and reach their needed 25 hours within 3 months, not six.

Phase Three graduates have a minimum of 350 hours of classroom instruction under their belts, earned over at least 3 years; this is specifically designed to mirror the black belt level in many local schools of traditional styles, including the TKD I've also trained in.

That brings up the question of how many HOURS, not necessarily how many YEARS, you think it'd take to become black belt.

A couple more kernels of food for thought. One, while my students can gain black belts in a few years (a little more than 4 years usually bears this), its not until they've reached an approximated Phase Five, which takes on average 8-10 years, before they can start teaching their own classes.

Two, someone mentioned a Tang Soo Do school. The head instructor in one TSD studio I used to train tells students that it should take between 2-7 years to earn a black belt, with 4-5 years being the average.


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## tshadowchaser

I have studied a few systems that only issued certificates. These where given if and when a student with the ability moved far enough away from the instructor as to not be competition.
One became a master through teaching over the years, and knowledge. One did not promote or call oneslef as master. This title is what others of rank eventualy called you.
I never had a problem wth that way of doing things. Mainly I guess  because the knowledge was my goal not rank. With rank comes responsibility and less personal training time.
Shadow

PS  anyone read Mandarin?I have an old cert. that I no longer am able to read properly and  hate haveing anything on my wall that I can not translate word for word.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> 
> *anyone read Mandarin?I have an old cert. that I no longer am able to read properly and  hate haveing anything on my wall that I can not translate word for word. *



Try asking in CMA-General!


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## tonbo

It took me 10 years to get my Black.

Black Belt tests come around on the average of once a year (if that) at my school, and then only if people are truly ready.  For me, it was about two years between the tests......I had taken some time off for medical reasons, and was promoted to third degree brown just before my leave.  That test was the last "advanced" test that was scheduled for two, almost three, years.  No one was ready for advancement, and we all knew it.

Our school's timeline is something like this:  at basic levels (white, yellow, and orange), you can test for a belt every couple of months, if you are ready (average of about 3-4 months between belts).  At intermediate levels (purple, blue, and green), you are looking at testing for a belt after about 7-9 months.  That's "textbook" or "ideal".  Most people do that between purple and blue, then take about a year in blue, and about a year to a year and a half in green.  In advanced (brown) ranks, expect to spend at *least* a year in each belt.  That's how it tends to work out.  

The nice thing is, most people tend to "self-police", and test for rank when they feel they are ready, not just when they want it.  You see a lot of people taking a *lot* of time between belts as they get higher up, and most often, they have to be *told* that they are ready to test.  Most, myself included, will almost argue with you that "I'm not ready".....even when they are.

That's a nice thing to see, IMHO.  Balances out the "gimme my rank" jokers who just want the belt.....

Peace--


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## shihantae

I agree on the pole being more flexible.

1) It really depends on the person.
2) some teacher, like myself, will not test a child until the are at least 16.  I have tested one at that.  They were an exception.
My requirements are they not test until they are 18.

So if you get a child at let's say 12, it would be 6yrs at a min. before they could test.

It is hard to determine in years how long it would take for someone to test for BB.  There are a lot of things that must be considered, even on the adult level.   

Peace,
Tae


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## Despairbear

Agreed, a BB is more than MA skill level. While I do not like the idea of a age limit it would sort of be a heads up, I have meet no people under 18 and damn few above 18 who would meet the "mental and philisphical" (geeze too early for big words) reqs. I would think should be in place for that level of trainig.



Despair Bear


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## Stickboxer

My first teacher Adam, whom I used to consider a friend before we went our separate ways, decided to become buddies with a local TKD instructor... for the express purpose of getting the guy to like him. Adam's motivation? He wanted to grease the wheels with the TKD guy so the guy would "slide" Adam a black belt ranking within a few months of light training. Adam was extremely heavy and even had a bad back and a bum leg; worse, he was lazy. But he thought he'd become chums with the TKD instructor and easily earn the high rank, like borrowing $5 from a brother or something.

At the time, I was a student in TKD for about a year, in another city. I worked hard for my rank. And I found this insulting to me.

I told Adam that if the guy did that, I'd expose the guy to any federation I could and get him kicked out, have Adam's rank rescinded, and I'd kick their a**es on top of it.

Adam never understood why I would be upset, other than through jealousy, just because Adam wanted an ungrounded grading handed to him while I earned mine.

For those of you who want to be called black belts, there's two methods of getting one:

1. working hard for years,

2. borrow $5 from your brother and order one out of a catalog.


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## tshadowchaser

I really don't care how long it takes a person to get their Black Belt, as long as they EARN it, not buy it.
As for kids I dont think they should be black belts . Maybe we should design a whole new belt, shash, uniform stip,or uniform trim  for the kids. Something that shows they have gained experience and knowledge but will not equate to an adults rank. When they reach adult age (16, 18, 21, whatever) they are tested as an adult and given rank as an adult, but no higher than first degree.
 Just some ideas.
Shadow:asian:


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## FLY

At my school, there is no required time between coloured belts.  A person is promoted to the next belt based on their personal abilities and understanding of the curriculum.  Not all people learn at the same rate, so why should people who learn quicker than others be held back because of someone who isn't putting in as much effort as the others?  
The learning of techs and forms required for promotion are also taught in a private one-on-one lesson with my sensei (including the actual testing itself).  Personally, I like it this way because I can advance at my own pace....you get out of it what you put into it.
As far as testing for bb, everyone is required to wait a minimum of three years before even being considered for testing.  I also do not have a problem with this because, as far as I'm concerned (even though I don't hold a bb myself....yet ) there is more to it than just going through the motions of techniques.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You may train for a long, ling time, but if you merely move your hands and
feet and jump up and down like a puppet, learning karate is not very
different from learning to dance.  You will never have reached the heart of
the matter; you will have failed to grasp the quintessence of karate-do.

- GICHIN FUNAKOSHI
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:asian:


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## tonbo

Ever since I can remember in my training, we were always told the following at our school:  "If you just want the Black Belt, they are about $10 from the catalog.  We won't sell you one, but we can tell you where to get one.  If you want to earn it, you can take it away from the head instructor for free..."   whereupon, a description was launched as to just how that would happen:  A number of years of blood, sweat, and tears, and then passing your Black Belt test.

Point was, there are "black belts", and there are "Black Belts".  I can go buy a $7000 brand new, custom made Japanese katana, but it doesn't make me a samurai.  I can buy a Formula One racer, but it doesn't make me a professional racer.  On and on and on.  

If you just want the belt itself, it is a lot cheaper to buy it than not.  However, the problem is, if you *say* you are a Black Belt, and you aren't, you may be called on to prove it.  In that case, it is just a matter of time before you are found out.  You know, the old "Yeah, you talk the talk....but do you walk the walk?" argument.

I figure that, roughly, my Black has cost me about a thousand times more than the one in the catalog.  

Worth every penny, due to the *other* perks (the conditioning, the discipline, the health, the attitude) that came with it...

Peace--


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## WaterCircleHarmony

My black belt took me about 10 years to get! and i'm still rubbish.

It was not "particularly" hard work but i certainly have a feel for the art by now.  only a feel though! A few basics at least.

i think again that the whole black belt thing is more created originally for a more militaristic view upon things. am i wrong?

Respectfully.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by WaterCircleHarmony _
> 
> *i think again that the whole black belt thing is more created originally for a more militaristic view upon things. am i wrong?
> *



It was created for judo as a way to (sort of) rank players. It was a sports-oriented thing from the highly regimented Japanese society which tends to classify whatever it can and even things it can't (like numbers).


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## Seig

This has been a fascinating thread.  All I really am going to say on the subject is that for a long time, my then students considered me the most senior Sho-Dan in the world.  When I finally got my Ni-Dan, 10 years and 1 day after I got my original Sho-Dan, actually training that whole time, they called me the world's first second degree grey belt.  It had faded that badly.  Myself, I think I make a pretty good purple belt.


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## LanceWildcat1

In our school, there is a curriculum.  As you reach the qualifications and test successfully, you are promoted to the next rank.  Hence, there is no set time limit, nor in my opinion should there be one.
 :soapbox:


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## Matt Stone

It can take as short a time as maybe 3 - 4 years, or you could be like me and take the extended program!   I didn't "make the grade" until after 13 years of training!  It should have taken much less time, but when I was younger I wasn't so keen on training as hard as I should have...  now that that testing mess is, for the most part, no longer a big concern of mine, I can focus on just training for the sake of training...

:samurai:  :samurai:


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## FUZZYJ692000

We just switched over our testing to test when you're ready.  Which is nice because some of the students are not there enough to learn all the material and test every  three months like we were doing.  Also it doesn't pressure you in remembering all the techniques, forms, and katas in a specific amount of time.  I like it because I can take it at my own pace and in some of the techniques they are easier to execute and retain than others are for me and those that are harder I can spend more time on.  How long?  Seig says about 3 yrs., some of us maybe longer.  But when we get there we would have earned it.:asian:


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## kenposcum

There is a short story entitled "Kwoon," I forget the author's name, wherein a young kung fu sifu recieves a new student who has studied all over the world for decades, been in numerous streetfights, killed people, etc.  The new student proceeds to mop the floor with the sifu.  The sifu then corrects some issues with the newcomer's form, stating, "A better fighter than me would be able to capitalize on these mistakes."  
What does all this mean?  To me, a black belt is not a sign of how long you've been in the art or how many techniques you know or even how skilled you are.  There are a few non-martial artists out there who could beat the stuffing out of the majority of martial artists out there.  So what?
Obviously, training in the martial arts should have a goal of increasing combat efficacy, and anyone who calls themself a black belt had better be able to fight well, but the martial arts are not just about beating an assailant's head in.  There is a maturation, an awakening, a realization that truly makes one a black belt.  As far as this goes, some people will train their whole lives and never truly be a black belt (at least in my humble opinion).
But obviously, train hard, sweat and breathe hard and bleed and puke, hit and get hit, work your fanny off whenever you're in the training hall, these things will help you attain the surface goal, which is to poundeth thy adversaries into yon nondescript red smear :asian:


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## Cthulhu

From what I've seen, in Okinawa-te, it takes a person on average around seven years to get to the point where they may be ready to test for black belt.  Ten years isn't unheard of and five years is considered pretty fast.  I attribute this to a few factors:

1) Simply the amount of material that needs to be covered.

2) We didn't have any regularly scheduled testing periods.  We simply tested when we or our instructor felt we were ready.  I distinctly remember my instructor making me take one belt test.  I didn't think I was ready, but he knew otherwise and just made me test.

3) I'm not sure how it is now, since the organization has split into a few factions, but it used to be that an Okinawa-te black belt was certified to teach and test up to black belt.  Therefore, the person had to know the material, which would contribute to the time span involved.  

I've never trained in a school that had regularly scheduled testing periods, so I can't relate or comment on that.  Now that I'm training in FCS Kali, we don't have any ranks.  There are our two instructors and us punching bags...I mean...students.  Everybody trains with everybody, regardless of skill level or time in the class.  As such, I don't worry about rank or 'seniority' in that class.  I just go to learn.

Which is really the whole point in the first place.

Cthulhu


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## Seig

> _Originally posted by FUZZYJ692000 _
> 
> *We just switched over our testing to test when you're ready.  Which is nice because some of the students are not there enough to learn all the material and test every  three months like we were doing.  Also it doesn't pressure you in remembering all the techniques, forms, and katas in a specific amount of time.  I like it because I can take it at my own pace and in some of the techniques they are easier to execute and retain than others are for me and those that are harder I can spend more time on.  How long?  Seig says about 3 yrs., some of us maybe longer.  But when we get there we would have earned it.:asian: *


You either mis-quoted or misunderstood me.  Testing is still going to be held every three months for those from white to green belt. Those going for the degrees of brown or higher will test when *I* think they are ready, not when they do.  I also said that it would take *at least* three years, at a minimum. But you are right, when you get that belt from my hands, you will have earned it.:asian:


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## Nightingale

Personally, I like the belt ranking system.  I use it as a way to track my own progress. It makes things easier to break down, so I can tell myself "at this time, I need to concentrate on these objectives..."  It also lets me know who in the dojo knows more than I do, so I can go pick their brains about stuff I don't know.


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## jkn75

In kuk sool won, it is up to the schools to determine under black belt training times. Some schools are large enough to test regularly and have enough people to test once a month or every other month. In smaller schools, it can be every 2-3 months if people are ready and some college clubs offer testing at the end of each semester (4-5 months).

To make black belt it can take 4-5 years. You must test 4-6 times over a year (you only pay once though). After 1st degree there is a minimum number of years you must train. The first year is to train on under black belt techniques. Then you must train for two years before you can start testing for second degree. Then each belt is a number of years to train= 3rd degree train for three, 4th 4 years. Usually these take much longer though. There are very few people under 18 above 1st degree. 

:asian:


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## Seig

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> You either mis-quoted or misunderstood me.  Testing is still going to be held every three months for those from white to green belt. Those going for the degrees of brown or higher will test when I think they are ready, not when they do.  I also said that it would take at least three years, at a minimum. But you are right, when you get that belt from my hands, you will have earned it.:asian: *


I have since had reason to yet again modify this.  Now, regardless of rank, they test when I feel they are ready.  After a few incidents along the way, I have decided that I really don't care if they think they are ready or not.  This may seem callous or even nasty, but it isn't.  I love my students and do not want them having a false sense of security or superiority.


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## Nightingale

how can letting them wait until they feel they are ready give them a false sense of security?...not understanding...

respectfully,

-N-


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## Aegis

I think he meant that they have to wait until he thinks they're ready, not themselves, because otherwise they might test and get the grade but not be ready for that grade. Then they could well think themselves better than they are, hence a false sense of superiority.


Was the Blak belt system created by Judo? I thought only coloured belts were.


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## CHUNNER

Hello everyone, This is my first post on these boards. May I just start by saying that the opinions expressed here are very open minded and informative. A refreshing change in the traditionally closed minded and  bigoted martial arts world.

Now to the point.  It took me 10 years to get my first Black Balt in Wado Ryu. It seemed a long time, but looking back on it now I think It was just about right. Being a Black Belt to me anyway represents a certain level of maturity both in your art and life in general. For example I personally do not think that people under the age of 18 can possibly be black belts. They may be technically proficient but to me that's only part of the requirement.

I have been teaching now for 13 years and I have not yet promoted anyone to 1st degree, Not because I want to hold anyone back, On the contrary I am really looking forward to the day I hand over that certificate.

Maybe I just expect to much, Maybe It`s because I took so long to get there. I don't really know.

I think a large part of it is that most of the Black Belts I have come across in Northern Ireland do not impress me very much and I would hate it for anyone to say that about anybody I had graded to Black Belt.


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## celtic bhoy

A Wing Chun instructor once told me that gradings are worth nothing, they are just  a way of separating you from your money. He could not understand the point of paying a complete stranger at a seminar to grade you when he does'nt even know you. He believes that if gradings are compulsory then your instructor should be the only person entitled to grade you, as he's probably the person who knows you best. The colour of your belt only denotes what you know and not how good you are. To some degree I believe he has a point, what do you think.


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## Blindside

Why the hell would you pay a complete stranger to grade you?
I don't understand that at all.  I want my instructor to grade me, how can anyone promote me without knowing me and how I move?  Even if I was a high ranking head of my own studio type (which I'm not) I would need to study under someone to actually be promoted by them.

And our school doesn't charge for tests, so that isn't an issue.

Lamont


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## Aegis

In my style of Jujitsu you have to be graded by an examiner. The instructors of individual clubs are not usually quallified to grade students, and I doubt even the ones who are quallified would do so.

The gradings in our style are about several things:

1) Putting across a good impression of your abilities to someone who does not usually teach you, using someone you don't usually train with as an uke.

2) Performing your martial art under pressure. It's almost unheard of to not make friends with your sensei in my style, and no matter how hard he/she pushes you, you always know that they'll have a laugh with you about it at a later date. The grading sensei does not know you, you don't know him, so he can put more pressure on you.

3) It's a good learning exercise. Gradings are more like a long lesson in this style. My last grading (orange belt) was about 4 hours long in total, and I paid not much more than twice what I'd normally pay for a 2 hour session. I also learned a lot from it, so it's not like I just paid to get my grade, though I would have done that too, allowing me to learn more advanced techniques in preparation for my next grading.


It's all about the pressure!

Plus most club instructors aren't allowed live weapons on the mat without a higher graded instructor present.


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## Nightingale

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> 
> *I think he meant that they have to wait until he thinks they're ready, not themselves, because otherwise they might test and get the grade but not be ready for that grade. Then they could well think themselves better than they are, hence a false sense of superiority.
> *




I think both the instructor AND the student need to agree that a test should take place. I got pushed into a belt test a few years ago. I didn't feel I was ready.  I passed the test, but every time I put on that belt, I still felt like I really shouldn't be wearing it. Looking back now, almost three years later, I still feel that I shouldn't have tested when I did.


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## fringe_dweller

I watched our bi-annual bb grading last friday night and of the eight people testing only four passed. Made me value it more seeing people not handed it simply for still being standing on their feet at the end of the grading.
Having seen some people look extremely competent and others not gives me more motivation than ever to learn my techniques/principles on a given level to my fullest ability.
I've been training for two years now and I'm looking at another three before I'm ready to think about that.


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## Master of Blades

I'm having my first grading on Monday I hope and we will be graded by the Hapkido teacher. Contrary the Hapkido side of the class will be graded By my Kali teacher. My Kali teacher is a BB in Hapkido and is allowed to grade but he believes that you need someone in a suit behind a table looking at you as if you have failed already just to make you try that little bit harder. My friends TKD class has to go up to Oxford for his grading because none of his teachers are qualified to grade their students. Although Im not sure why.......:shrug:


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> 
> * My friends TKD class has to go up to Oxford for his grading because none of his teachers are qualified to grade their students. Although Im not sure why.......:shrug: *



I've seen many clubs like that, where the instructor has enough rank to teach, but not enough rank to test his/her own students.

Personally, I dislike this system.  If you're not going to trust an instructor to grade his/her own students, why bother making them an instructor.

Cthulhu


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## Master of Blades

I got told it was something to do with money though....I'm not to sure what the whole story is. I'll post it when I find out. I also dislike this system. I enjoy the old Korean way of doing it. Two people sitting behind the desk in suits. One person at the side shouting orders. VERY formal, VERY daunting. I dislike it when its not like this cuz it feels like Im doing a normal class EXCEPT I might possibly be earning another belt at the end of it. And its good to watch others do their gradings and see what you have to live up to.


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## Posiview

Seig



> Myself, I think I make a pretty good purple belt.




WaterCircleHarmony



> My black belt took me about 10 years to get! and i'm still rubbish.



These are very magnanamous and inspiring comments.  Very good thread.  I've read many threads where it is suggested that  aspiring to achieve a black belt is vain, pointless and detracts from the 'true' meaning of martial arts.

I have no reservaytion in stating that I look forward to achieving my black belt, although I have several years of training to go.  I think, however, the setting of minimum time that a martial artist should train before being awarded/achieving a black belt  can be problematic.  I train with people who are at various level of competance - that is, some people are able to undertake techniques much faster than others; in the same way that it might take someone 1, 2, 3 or more years to pass their driving test and others it may take (as it did my brother) a week.

As has been stated by another it should take as long as it takes.  

There appears to be a certain ammount of reverse snobbery exists in the arts - where people seem to celebrate the fact that it took them "20 years to get to get black belt".  May be that's because they weren't very good!

With regards grading, black belt and other belts, who cares who undertakes the assessment of grading!  If your club is a professional and concientious club then it shouldn't matter if a stranger assess you.  The assessor should have been deemed competant enought to either award the grading or not awared the grading.

I look forward to grading for my black belt.  However, not for the same reasons as when I first started: not for vanity but because I deserved it and I was graded by a competant and professional instructor.

Andy


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## fissure

I agree that some people love the fact that it took 20 + yrs to get their BB. I have to admit this seems a little drawn out to me.
There really can be only 2 reasons for handing someone a BB, in my oppinion.
First, they have trained hard for several years (4,5, whatever) and have shown reasonable tech. ability plus an appreciation for "what the MAs really mean" ( whatever that often quoted phrase, my actually mean in your particular style/system).If this is the case, then the BB acts as a kind of rebirth where the individual goes from understanding various degrees of nothing as a novice too being accepted as an interim level trainee. The BB would signify someone who has enough physical and (MA speaking) mental acumen to delve deeper into whatever is being offered.
The second scenario for dishing out BBs is to signify complete and total mastery of a particular art. If this is the case then even 20 yrs seems to short a time. I received my BB 16 yrs ago after 6 1/2 yrs of training (Shotokan + TKD), but to this day I still find small ways to improve upon things I thought I knew a decade ago.
Either way I have found that the goal of getting your BB, then progressing through the DAn system losses it's appeall after a time.I have been a 2nd Dan for about 8 yrs now. I now where I stand - the thought of someone watching me train for a couple hours then passing judgment on what he thinks of my ability holds zero interest for me at this point.I think the most important point is to now why you want a black belt to begin with, and be aware enough to admitt to yourself that those reasons can and probably will change.


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## rachel

I agree that the schools should only test a student when the instructor feels he or she is ready. If they test once a month or every 2 months etc and the student is not ready why make them test. I know I'd rather wait however long it took so I knew I'd earned the belt rather than have it handed to me. A belt means nothing without the skill to back it up. Our teacher in Kempo said it's not out of the realm of possibility to have our black belts within 6 years. If it takes that long,fine. I have no problem with that. I just want to make sure I know and know well everything I should know to advance and I won't push for the belt or accept it until I'm ready.


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## Quick Sand

In my style of TKD it generally takes around 5 years to get your black belt. 

When you pass, they present you with a white belt along with your black belt to signify that you still have a long way to go and a lot to learn. 

In terms of testing, I also agree that it should only happen when a student it ready. My class does hold testing once a term but if you don't feel ready for that one or can't make it then arrangements are made for you to test at of the other dojangs in a nearby city.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Quick Sand _
> 
> *When you pass, they present you with a white belt along with your black belt to signify that you still have a long way to go and a lot to learn. *



That's different--I hadn't heard of that before! Yes, black belt is the _true_ beginner's level.


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## chufeng

I gave my Sifu a White Belt when I had to leave (1986)...
He asked what it meant...I said, someday you will have earned it.

He still has it...
He reminds me of it from time to time.
I gave it to him with the best of intention...
I am pleased that, to this day, he still has it...

...and I think both of us have developed a greater appreciation of its significance.

:asian:
chufeng


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## Shinzu

i like that story chufeng   forever the student.


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## WhiteTiger

Belt Color means Nothing!

There are thousands of 10 year old Black Belts that got their rank in 18 months out there, none of whom could fight their way out a wet paper bag.  
Lets face it there are black belts that just squeaked by, and there are green blets out there that are tough as nails.   The only questions that begin to be valid are how long you have trained, in what art, do you measure your skill against others in competition?


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## Master of Blades

Belts may mean nothing to you, but for some people they are a stimulus for getting further in their training, a goal to reach. It really depends on the person. But you have to admit that they are useful on the fact that if you go from club to club then you're teacher can see what you can do from you're belt and not make you do all the newbie stuff until you get back up to wherever you were. And if you're instructor doesnt think you're good enough he can throw you back in with the newbies. They're good for lots of stuff :rofl:


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## Shinzu

> _Originally posted by WhiteTiger _
> 
> *Belt Color means Nothing!
> 
> There are thousands of 10 year old Black Belts that got their rank in 18 months out there, none of whom could fight their way out a wet paper bag.
> Lets face it there are black belts that just squeaked by, and there are green blets out there that are tough as nails.   The only questions that begin to be valid are how long you have trained, in what art, do you measure your skill against others in competition? *



first off no 10 year old should be a black belt.  if they can't handle the rank then they should not be given it.  that would be the instructors fault.  

true there are some lower ranked students that are tougher than higher ranked students but the martial arts is not all about strength.  knowledge, dedication, determination, skill, humility, respect, and self defense have nothing to do with muscle size.

i also have to agree that belt levels are a good tool for judging students among other things.


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## arnisador

Comedian Dennis Miller was on The Tonight Show a few days ago and said that his 12 year old son had just gotten his black belt and that he was very proud of his son.


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## yilisifu

There are many variables that have to be considered; physical condition, coordination level, frequency of attending class, previous experience, level of intelligence...

   There's no hard and fast rule.


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## YouAgain

I have been training in martial arts since I was seven...... im now 14 and I have yet to obtain my BB i'm going to wait until I'm 16 so I can get my proper Shodan instead of just geting the junior BB!


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## LadyDragon

From the time I began my MA's training to when I recieved my black belt was just over 5 years.  Granted there were times there when I would get sick, so I might miss a week or two from training, but as soon as i could, I was back in the dojo do what I love to do best.


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## 8253

As long as it takes for the person to be mentally ready to handle this level of responsibility.


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## Toasty

I gotta input here...WHAT THE HECK!??  
what is all this "it took me 10 years {or more} to get my black belt & i still dont know anything" crap? what are you people doing?
Look at how long all those people (the americans anyway) you look up to in the early (or "golden") years of karate actually trained - i will do the exact research - but most, if not all, got their black belts in under 3 years. Most of them were in the service & were stationed in Okinawa & Korea = limited training time while off duty.
For god's sake, even Jigoro Kano had only studied jujutsu for 5 YEARS when he developed Judo.  Thats right, he started in Tenjin-shinyo JuJutsu in 1877 then switched to Kito-ryu JuJutsu in 1879 when his instructor passed away - then "founded" the first Judo dojo in 1882...5 years. Now, granted he did continue studying Kito-ryu as well as other forms of jujutsu while continuing to develop & enhance his Judo.
As for other arts, one of which I have trained in, Wing Chun was specifically designed  for a person to be proficient (read - blackbelt level) in 2-3 years at the most.
The Filipino arts are also especially designed to get one to a high level of fighting ability in very short time as well.
All this 10 belts before black belt crap is desiged for one thing only - to seperate you from you $$.  Look at all those old guys - they had like 3 belts white, brown & black. 
I especially like the "it will take me lifetime to master even the basics" - what the heck does that mean? It didnt even take the FOUNDER of the style a "lifetime" to develop the whole darn system before he/she stared teaching it!!
I had made this point in an earlier post regarding Mr. Joe Lewis - if it only took him 9 months to get his black belt, why in the h - e - double hockey sticks does he think he gets to make his "students" wait 10 years to "award" them their black belt?

anyway, i fully expect to get flamed by all those who have bought into the upteen years to black belt rational...sorry...

I truely wish all of you the very best in your training
Rob


----------



## Chicago Green Dragon

I think when a person puts a time limit on when to get their black belt they are selling themselves short. It depends on the person, their experience, their effort and a whole lot of other things too. Putting a time limit on it or having a get your black belt in 2 years or 3 years program is ridiculous.
It should be when the person progresses up to that level as a whole. If someone is so concerned with getting it in a specified period of time i would recommend going out and buying yourself a black belt and enjoy. But when push comes to shove and one day you will need to use what you know you black belt will make a nice sling for the broken arm you will prob get.
I've seen some people of lesser rank mop the floor with black belts. The funny thing is that people only saw the color and didnt bother to think did this person know something else too. Yes they did a lot more.

I just believe it should happen when it happens not some specified period of time in advance. Some people might make it in 2 years then some might take 3 or 4. Does that make them any less a black belt ? No, it doesnt. Each person learns and works in a different way.

Patience Grasshoper          :uhyeah: 

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


----------



## Toasty

Wow, i just re-read my post...talk about a lot of typos...

Anyway, i forgot to add that i could see it taking someone a lot more time when they only train 2-3 times a week.
When an old friend told me she had been training in the martial arts for a year now, I said "cool, you must be getting pretty good!". And she said she was starting to get the hang of it...I asked her how often she trained and was stunned that she only went 2 times a week (not counting holidays off or missing a class a month here and there for whatever reason as well). She replied back "why, how often do you train?" and she was stunned when I said at least 5 days and often 6 days a week...

anyway
just my opinions...
Rob


----------



## 8253

Toasty said:
			
		

> I gotta input here...WHAT THE HECK!??
> what is all this "it took me 10 years {or more} to get my black belt & i still dont know anything" crap? what are you people doing?
> Look at how long all those people (the americans anyway) you look up to in the early (or "golden") years of karate actually trained - i will do the exact research - but most, if not all, got their black belts in under 3 years. Most of them were in the service & were stationed in Okinawa & Korea = limited training time while off duty.
> For god's sake, even Jigoro Kano had only studied jujutsu for 5 YEARS when he developed Judo.  Thats right, he started in Tenjin-shinyo JuJutsu in 1877 then switched to Kito-ryu JuJutsu in 1879 when his instructor passed away - then "founded" the first Judo dojo in 1882...5 years. Now, granted he did continue studying Kito-ryu as well as other forms of jujutsu while continuing to develop & enhance his Judo.
> As for other arts, one of which I have trained in, Wing Chun was specifically designed  for a person to be proficient (read - blackbelt level) in 2-3 years at the most.
> The Filipino arts are also especially designed to get one to a high level of fighting ability in very short time as well.
> All this 10 belts before black belt crap is desiged for one thing only - to seperate you from you $$.  Look at all those old guys - they had like 3 belts white, brown & black.
> I especially like the "it will take me lifetime to master even the basics" - what the heck does that mean? It didnt even take the FOUNDER of the style a "lifetime" to develop the whole darn system before he/she stared teaching it!!
> I had made this point in an earlier post regarding Mr. Joe Lewis - if it only took him 9 months to get his black belt, why in the h - e - double hockey sticks does he think he gets to make his "students" wait 10 years to "award" them their black belt?
> 
> anyway, i fully expect to get flamed by all those who have bought into the upteen years to black belt rational...sorry...
> 
> I truely wish all of you the very best in your training
> Rob



cool posting


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## Chicago Green Dragon

Interesting posting about Mr Lewis

I wonder why too. Esp. if there was someone who really put in the effort or had the extra talent too.

Chicago Green Dragon


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## Rich Parsons

Toasty said:
			
		

> I gotta input here...WHAT THE HECK!??
> what is all this "it took me 10 years {or more} to get my black belt & i still dont know anything" crap? what are you people doing?
> Look at how long all those people (the americans anyway) you look up to in the early (or "golden") years of karate actually trained - i will do the exact research - but most, if not all, got their black belts in under 3 years. Most of them were in the service & were stationed in Okinawa & Korea = limited training time while off duty.
> For god's sake, even Jigoro Kano had only studied jujutsu for 5 YEARS when he developed Judo. Thats right, he started in Tenjin-shinyo JuJutsu in 1877 then switched to Kito-ryu JuJutsu in 1879 when his instructor passed away - then "founded" the first Judo dojo in 1882...5 years. Now, granted he did continue studying Kito-ryu as well as other forms of jujutsu while continuing to develop & enhance his Judo.
> As for other arts, one of which I have trained in, Wing Chun was specifically designed for a person to be proficient (read - blackbelt level) in 2-3 years at the most.
> The Filipino arts are also especially designed to get one to a high level of fighting ability in very short time as well.
> All this 10 belts before black belt crap is desiged for one thing only - to seperate you from you $$. Look at all those old guys - they had like 3 belts white, brown & black.
> I especially like the "it will take me lifetime to master even the basics" - what the heck does that mean? It didnt even take the FOUNDER of the style a "lifetime" to develop the whole darn system before he/she stared teaching it!!
> I had made this point in an earlier post regarding Mr. Joe Lewis - if it only took him 9 months to get his black belt, why in the h - e - double hockey sticks does he think he gets to make his "students" wait 10 years to "award" them their black belt?
> 
> anyway, i fully expect to get flamed by all those who have bought into the upteen years to black belt rational...sorry...
> 
> I truely wish all of you the very best in your training
> Rob


Hey Toasty, :flame: 

Just Flaming you 

I do not Joe Lewis, yet I can see why people would be forced to wait. They do not have the skill comes to mind first. Yet this would not fit for all. So maybe it is to stretch out the lessons and to keep the money coming in as Rob pointed out? Yes, it is possible.

It should depend on upon growth of the individual and also upon skill and over understanding. Just some thoughts


----------



## Black Bear

My style is Hugo Boss. Billable hourly rate in my business is $120, but to be competitive most of us bill below that. So maybe thirty minutes.


----------



## Jason Davis

It's best not to have belts.


----------



## Chicago Green Dragon

Nah still need them for holding up the pants..........lol


Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				Jason Davis said:
			
		

> It's best not to have belts.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Averages in my kempo system of origin were 5.5 to 8 years, but with a tip of the hat to the shorter time it took various founders and seniors, it includes black belt cirricula from three seperate systems, incrementally and thematically broken down then re-organized by belts (i.e., belt = chapter in a book about a subject = stuff from each of the 3 systems that addressed that topic). Also depends on how much training time - at the school and on one's own - a person puts into their effort. Fanatics living at the dojo and training at night when they get home will obviously progress faster than hobbyists who show up once a week, and put no home-training time into it.


----------



## Chicago Green Dragon

And how long did it take people who came from other styles with advanced rank in their style to attain a black belt in your organization ?

Did you find that they were able to empty their glass to fill it with your knowledge or were they able to leave it half full and add it to without it being a distraction ?

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Averages in my kempo system of origin were 5.5 to 8 years, but with a tip of the hat to the shorter time it took various founders and seniors, it includes black belt cirricula from three seperate systems, incrementally and thematically broken down then re-organized by belts (i.e., belt = chapter in a book about a subject = stuff from each of the 3 systems that addressed that topic). Also depends on how much training time - at the school and on one's own - a person puts into their effort. Fanatics living at the dojo and training at night when they get home will obviously progress faster than hobbyists who show up once a week, and put no home-training time into it.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Chicago Green Dragon said:
			
		

> And how long did it take people who came from other styles with advanced rank in their style to attain a black belt in your organization ?
> 
> Did you find that they were able to empty their glass to fill it with your knowledge or were they able to leave it half full and add it to without it being a distraction ?
> 
> Chicago Green Dragon
> 
> :asian:


Depends on the person.  In my own experiences of training with others, I've sometime found previous learning a blockade to incorporation, and sometimes an assistance.  Having seen the dichotomy within my own neural junkyard, I let folks joining us walk their own path, at their own pace, towards whatever goal they see fit.

Generally, unless specififed that they *want* a black belt in my organization, they are encouraged to wear their previous kimono & rank, and just show up and train.  Occassionally (and I know this is treason), I even ask them to lead the class and teach us some of their pearls of wisdom.

A strange man entered a tribal village, and gathered the warriors together.  He said to them, "tomorrow, you must go into the desert, and gather stones, and place them in your pouch.  After the sun goes down, you may look at the stones. At first, you will be glad, but then you will be sad."  The next day, the warriors followed the directions of the prophet, and gathered stones in the desert.  It was hot, and stones are heavy, so many picked up only small stones, and some picked up only a few.  When the sun fell, they opened their pouches, and were amazed to see the stones had turned into diamonds. At first, they were glad, for all were richer from the experience.  Then, they were sad, regretting they had not braved the heat and picked up more.

If you only find one pearl at a time, and bend to pick it up though it is small, at the end of your life you'll have a bag of pearls.  

Until we meet in that place where we are all one,

Dr. Dave


----------



## Chicago Green Dragon

Dr. Dave

Thank you for answering my post. As for the uniforms and what you allow, I believe that in your school you have your choice of how things work. 
I respect your choice to allow people to wear their previous uniforms and rank if they wish. I also like the fact that you allow them to show some of their knowledge from their systems they have studied too.
There is so much out there to learn that we can never learn it all. But, its nice when we can have a sip from someone elses cup.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Depends on the person.  In my own experiences of training with others, I've sometime found previous learning a blockade to incorporation, and sometimes an assistance.  Having seen the dichotomy within my own neural junkyard, I let folks joining us walk their own path, at their own pace, towards whatever goal they see fit.
> 
> Generally, unless specififed that they *want* a black belt in my organization, they are encouraged to wear their previous kimono & rank, and just show up and train.  Occassionally (and I know this is treason), I even ask them to lead the class and teach us some of their pearls of wisdom.
> 
> A strange man entered a tribal village, and gathered the warriors together.  He said to them, "tomorrow, you must go into the desert, and gather stones, and place them in your pouch.  After the sun goes down, you may look at the stones. At first, you will be glad, but then you will be sad."  The next day, the warriors followed the directions of the prophet, and gathered stones in the desert.  It was hot, and stones are heavy, so many picked up only small stones, and some picked up only a few.  When the sun fell, they opened their pouches, and were amazed to see the stones had turned into diamonds. At first, they were glad, for all were richer from the experience.  Then, they were sad, regretting they had not braved the heat and picked up more.
> 
> If you only find one pearl at a time, and bend to pick it up though it is small, at the end of your life you'll have a bag of pearls.
> 
> Until we meet in that place where we are all one,
> 
> Dr. Dave


----------



## TigerWoman

In our Taekwondo school, the average is three and 1/2 years to 5 depending on how much training you put into it.  Its easy to pass the first 3 -4 rank tests even with the board breaking but the physical aspect has always been hard. Our Master won Nationals for TKD in sparring but was disqualified because he did not have citizenship at the time.  He trains us hard. For my experience, I went to doing 15 precarious split pushups to 50 regular (guy's) pushups for my blackbelt test and that was at the end of the 4 hr. test.  I went to 7 classes weekly plus taught/led cardio kickboxing classes twice a week. Those that worked hard in our classes got to test in 3 1/2 yrs.--they were READY for it.
     But then I've seen some people stretch it out to never testing for BB just become professional red belts.  If you know what the requirements are, you figure out how to get to the goal - but ten years is a little much for 1st Dan.


----------



## terryl965

I agree a student sould advance at there on pace not a timetable,some student just learn kata and one steps and self defense quickly compare to other over the last 35 years I seen so manystudent quit becouse of time tables at there dojo.Ialso agree about the Dan levels they differently should havea time frame with them. God Bless America and your family's as well


----------



## Danjo

Toasty said:
			
		

> Here is what i think is a related question.
> I read somewhere recently that Joe Lewis, in his style {Joe Lewis Karate i believe he calls it} has only promoted like 2 black belts in 10 years. {these numbers may not be exact, but you get the point i hope}.
> to me that makes no sense as it only took him a whopping 9 months [i've also heard 7] to earn his black belt.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> thanks
> Rob
> P.S. I think Mr. Norris was the first "video black-belt" as when he was stationed back in the States he would film himself doing forms and the other requirements to send back to his instructors in Korea for his 2nd & 3rd dans i believe.[/QUOT
> 
> Joe Lewis Got his black belt in 22 months in Okinawa.


----------



## Danjo

I think what it really comes down to is what the belt means to YOU. There should be one person that you cannot lie to : YOURSELF. If you got a BS black belt, then you should admit it to yourself and not allow yourself to be deluded into thinking that you are better than you are. The idea here is that the belt will only really mean three things. 

1)Your place in the hierarchy of the specific system/school that you practice in. 
2) The fact that you are now the official embodiment of what it takes to reach the top of the ladder in your system or organization. 
3) A mark of personal achievement. 
The fact that you are now the official embodiment of what it takes to reach the top of the ladder in your system or organization. Now, given that, if I were an instructor, I would be reluctant to promote anyone to black belt that I didn't want to respresent my school to the outside world. What would that say about me if I promoted a 12 year old to black belt, I would be saying that this is what the experts in my system were. Not a very good advertisement to say the least. So, how long to get to black belt? As long as it takes for the instructor to be satisfied that the pupil is ready to represent the system to the outside world. If the student feels that he got there too easily, then he or she should go to get instruction elsewhere.


----------



## limubai2000

I do agree with the ranking system.  The simple fact is that most of us in this day and age were raised in a goal oriented lifestyle.  Whether it be school or work we like to see how we compare to others.  This inspires competition (in it's good and bad forms) and promotes self improvement.   I do wish we didn't need to employ a ranking system in martial arts but this is the way in which society has evolved (for better or worse).

However I also think that the journey to that a goal is more important than getting there.  

I am unsure on the length of time one should "serve" before getting a black belt because I feel that it greatly depends on the individual and instructor.  I definetely disagree with handing them out easily even to "transplants" from another art no matter how similar.  

I study Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu and the art is designed for someone to reach black belt in 3 to 5 years.  But there are an additional 2 belts between black and instructor level (and 10 levels of instructor).  I do look forward to reaching my black belt but just as the BB who co-instructs my class I will continue to practice and learn most likely until I die.


----------



## iamdragon72

A bit of wisdom from my Sifu, "The essence is in the art, not the sash."


----------



## ShaolinWolf

about a year left...I'm a red belt at the moment...


----------



## ShaolinWolf

Oh yeah, I forgot, it's April, not January...so I have about 7-8 months left til black belt...


----------



## Tony

In my system it takes an average of 5 years to attain a black sash and thats when you are officially and instructor. But once you get get to brown sash you start teaching more anyway! However I'm in no hurry to get my black sash. I do want to feel like I earnt it.


----------



## MichiganTKD

1. In our organization, testings are generally held every two months. There is the main Central Studio exam, as well as regional tests held at different schools around the Organization.

2. Not every student tests every two months, just the ones who are ready.

3. It usually takes about 2-3 years to attain black belt.

4. Judging is done by Instructors who have attained 4th Dan and above in the organization. Below 4th Dan, you can teach but not judge.

5. Instructors cannot judge their own students, only make notes. Their scores for their own students are not counted. It is very easy for an Instructor to be biased in favor of their own students, much like a parent who believes their child can do no wrong. Therefore, an Instructor other than the student's is less likely to be partial. Once in a while, we will have guest Grandmasters if it is a really big test.

6. Black belt testing is important, because it gives the testers a reason to feel proud of their accomplishment. Not only the students, but their Instructor, fellow students, and family need a sense of ceremony that acknowleges what they accomplished. Much like high school graduation. What high school says "Here's your diploma, now get out!"? They make a big ceremony out of it. Same with black belt. It is special and should be treated as such.

7. Every organization is different, but 10 years to black belt is a bit unreasonable. How do I know what I'll be doing in 10 years. I get the impression that a lot of these organizations are led by Instructors who purposely keep their students from getting to black to avoid having to really teach them. In other words, if I didn't get that high in my original style, or if I made it up (Dragon Kempo??) , the longer I make you wait til black belt the longer I can go without having to admit I have nothing new to teach or start making things up.


----------



## TigerWoman

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> 2. Not every student tests every two months, just the ones who are ready.
> 
> 3. It usually takes about 2-3 years to attain black belt.



It is about the same in our school system, every student usually has to wait three months minimum though for each rank test and sometimes longer in the higher belts depending if the instructor thinks you are ready. The master instructor also double promotes sometimes. It also takes 2-1/2 yrs to get to recommended black belt or deputy black belt and then an additional minimum six months to get 1st Dan.  In our school, only the master 5th Dan, judges at testing.  Black belts (highest 2nd dan) just assist.


----------



## Kenpo_Chick

In our style there are 9 full belts and a grading to a half tab every 3 months (4 per year). Therefore it takes an average of 4 years to get to a Black Belt. However it depends on the student and their readiness to accomplish this. 
I have done Kenpo for 3 1/2 nearly 4 years and I'm approaching my Black belt grading on the 26th of June however I have progressed faster than most in my style. Our Instructors do not invite you to the grading unless they feel that you can achieve it or have shown over the past 6 months or so that you're ready to progress. However there is a student who will be accompanying me for my black belt who has done this style 6-12 months earlier than me, and has not achieved his black belt because he was not ready for it.


----------



## marshallbd

deadhand31 said:
			
		

> I know that I'll try to be deputy black as long as possible. Maybe until the point where my instructor drags me kicking and screaming to the testing.......


I've not heard this term used before...please explain what it entails as far as testing goes.... :asian:


----------



## Gentle Fist

In my system,
People who have trained in other systems or have dan rank in another system tend to aquire shodan in about 3 to 5 years.  People who are new to MA and start out with us tend to take between 5 and 8.  There are a ton of students who get to ikkyu in 4 years and stay there for another 4.


----------



## jdubakki

i think it really depends on the person i have a few students that spend alot of time in the school and are progressing really fast but there are also some students that have been a yellow belt for like 2 years they just dont give it any effort so it shows.

funny thing for me is when the 2 year yellow belt resents the other belts for them actually practicing


----------



## Yasuki

I think personaly that black belt doesn't mean much. I've had the honor ofbeing more understanding of the true nature of Karatedo than some black belts. Whom allow rank to be too much of an issue. I will earn my "black belt" when my white belt becomes black from training.


----------



## marshallbd

Yasuki said:
			
		

> I've had the honor ofbeing more understanding of the true nature of Karatedo than some black belts. .


 What do you mean by that?





			
				Yasuki said:
			
		

> I will earn my "black belt" when my white belt becomes black from training.


A very noble statement.... :asian:


----------



## Jion

In my system it takes an average of 3.5 to 4 years from white to black.  The test spacings are smaller at the low end, 1-2 months, then 4-5 for most of the intermediate ranks.  Brown to black is generally a year and a half.

Someone mentioned instructors not being allowed to grade their own students... at our black belt tests, the instructor gets first word - if he says "fail", the others don't even get a word in.  He can't pass them on through, of course.


----------



## marshallbd

Jion said:
			
		

> In my system it takes an average of 3.5 to 4 years from white to black.  The test spacings are smaller at the low end, 1-2 months, then 4-5 for most of the intermediate ranks.  Brown to black is generally a year and a half.
> 
> Someone mentioned instructors not being allowed to grade their own students... at our black belt tests, the instructor gets first word - if he says "fail", the others don't even get a word in.  He can't pass them on through, of course.


Why is there a panel that promotes to Black Belt?  Why does the instructor not have the authority to promote someone as he/she feels they are ready and knowledgeable enough? :asian:


----------



## MichiganTKD

It is a question of partisanship. For example, in the Olympics, when an athlete is competing, the score from the judge representing the athlete's home country is not counted. Preferably he is not judged by someone from his home country at all. it makes sense if you think about it. How legitimate is the medal going to be if the deciding vote is cast by a judge from the same country as the athlete.
Same thing at testing. The black belt score and hence Dan rank is harder to justify if the student is passed by his own Instructor. It is better if the student is passed or failed by judges in the student's organization who don't care if the student passes or not. They are non-partisan. In our organization, if you have a student you feel is ready to test, you either senf him/her to the next regional testing or, barring that, you must invite at least one guest Instructor to judge your student. If no judge is available, your student cannot test. The only exception to this rule is Instructors who live far enough away from the Central Studio that inviting guest judges would be difficult on a regular basis. However, all of the Senior Instructors have Masters under them now, so it is much easier to bring judges in. In fact, at our testings, the Instructor of someone testing for Dan rank must leave the room while judges' votes are tallied.
This is the way it is traditionally done in Korea, starting with the formation of the KTA, when these rules were formalized. Independant schools with no ties to Korea will have their own rules.


----------



## Aegis

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> The black belt score and hence Dan rank is harder to justify if the student is passed by his own Instructor. It is better if the student is passed or failed by judges in the student's organization who don't care if the student passes or not. They are non-partisan.



Same thing at my style's gradings. There's one visiting instructor from a different region who determines the passes/fails. He can ask for advice from any other instructor there, but the decision is his in the end. It's like that for all gradings up to 2nd kyu. After that ytou have to go to a national grading instead. Similar method of grading, but fewer candidates, so they get them all together and have them beat each other up for a while.


----------



## marshallbd

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> It is a question of partisanship. For example, in the Olympics, when an athlete is competing, the score from the judge representing the athlete's home country is not counted. Preferably he is not judged by someone from his home country at all. it makes sense if you think about it. How legitimate is the medal going to be if the deciding vote is cast by a judge from the same country as the athlete.
> Same thing at testing. The black belt score and hence Dan rank is harder to justify if the student is passed by his own Instructor. It is better if the student is passed or failed by judges in the student's organization who don't care if the student passes or not. They are non-partisan. In our organization, if you have a student you feel is ready to test, you either senf him/her to the next regional testing or, barring that, you must invite at least one guest Instructor to judge your student. If no judge is available, your student cannot test. The only exception to this rule is Instructors who live far enough away from the Central Studio that inviting guest judges would be difficult on a regular basis. However, all of the Senior Instructors have Masters under them now, so it is much easier to bring judges in. In fact, at our testings, the Instructor of someone testing for Dan rank must leave the room while judges' votes are tallied.
> This is the way it is traditionally done in Korea, starting with the formation of the KTA, when these rules were formalized. Independant schools with no ties to Korea will have their own rules.


Thanks for that explanation, I was in a Tracy's school and the istructor promoted this guy to black and the only people there were the new BB , the instructor and me.  I was his demo dummy for his test and the test was nowhere near as long as the ones I hear and read about here on this forum.  It was intense while it was going on but very fast...like 45 minutes and As the "demo dummy" I went home in pain!!!  (I thought that it was unusual to promote to black in that way, but I guess it happens that way i alot of the video tested systems such as the IKCA) :asian:


----------



## Flatlander

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> It is a question of partisanship. The black belt score and hence Dan rank is harder to justify if the student is passed by his own Instructor. It is better if the student is passed or failed by judges in the student's organization who don't care if the student passes or not. They are non-partisan.


I like this.  This adds credibility to the system.  I'm all about integrity when it comes to promotion.  In this way, the student who researches can feel confident they are learning from one who is qualified to teach.

As for my system, I have no idea how long it will take me.  I haven't asked.  We don't wear belts, though, so I'll equate it with instructorship.  If I had to posit, I would guess at least 5-6 years.  But that's just a guess folks.

Humbly,


----------



## FasterthanDeath

Well we never wore belts, and still dont. The only time I knew what rank I was is when I overheard my teacher talking to one of his relatives. But I think it would take 4-6 years to recieve a black belt in the art. Now alot of these fast food arts you can get one as long as you can prove you know the knowledge and perform the techniques. But those are easily figured out. Usually those arts whose rank takes time and effort have an older atmosphere to it. Usually the students range from 13yrs and up. I am not saying that it has to be like this, its just most of those I have seen are like this.


----------



## ronnie_au

Well I'm still new to martial arts (Tae Kwon Do), but from talking to people in my class it looks like it takes at least 5 years for a black belt.  I think the kids classes get pushed along a little faster though to keep them interested, but I could be wrong.  I know there are some people who have taken between 8 and 9 years.  

And I just wanted to post my opinion about some things that I've read in regards to time limits and age requirements for belts.  I think they are both there for a reason, and a good one.  Some people may grasp the physical techniques very quickly but the mental aspect takes time for most everyone I think.  I honestly don't see a problem with juniour black belts.  The have shown there physical proficiency, but we make that juniour black belt-black belt destinction for a reason.  Kids simply do not have the emotional discipline or maturity to be considered a full black belt.  Just my opinion though.  Like I said, I'm only new at this so I could be way off base.


----------



## MichiganTKD

I think there has to be a middle ground. Obviously promoting someone to 1st Dan in 6 months or a year would be very suspicious. However, the other extreme, having someone wait 10 years to test 1st Dan is a problem as well. Black belt is just indicative of mastering the basics, and it shouldn't take 10 years to do this. Even 6-7 years is a bit much. Most students, American or otherwise, just won't wait that long. Now you can say "Well it weeds out the less dedicated students." But do you really want your class to consist of 2-3 really dedicated students who don't mind waiting 10 years?
 I think an average of about 2-3 years is best. It gives you time to establish their basics, which is all 1st Dan really is, without having to deal with students wondering why they have been practicing for 8 years and are still color belts.
 Personally, Instructors who make students wait 10 years for 1st Dan strike me as just stringing them along. Kind of like chiropractors who insist patients keep coming back for years of treatments that are not necessary.


----------



## Ninway J

Four years for me.


----------



## TIGER DRAGON FIGHT

it took me 5years to obtain my rank of black, it was definately well worth the wait. alot of repitition and practice.:jedi1:


----------



## Raewyn

In our Dojo we grade for our belt ranks every six months.  If we are not ready to grade than we have to wait until the next grading.  If you were to grade every six months in the style of MA that I train in, you would be a black belt in approx 4 years. But generally alot of people take alot longer than 4 years.


----------



## bignick

the average for my taekwondo school is between 3-5 years...i spent 3 years in taekwondo when i was younger and had to take a 6 year "break" when my instructor had to stop teaching (couldn't afford the 90 mile round trip to come to my town)....when i started up again, i did so as a white belt...my body wasn't worth much when it came to techniques but my mind was still sharp...i alredy knew what all the kicks and techniques were...i just couldn't do them that well anymore...due to this...i've progressed much quicker than normal...and will be testing for my black belt in december...which comes to a little over 2 and half years...but i guess mine was a "special" situation due to my former training(it all came from the same school, same instructors...)


----------



## Chicago Green Dragon

The question is not an easy one to answer because of all the possible variables that need to be taken into consideration.

You have the case where you have a new student that is devoted and studies hard.
Then you also can have a MA of another flavor come to your style who is able to adapt his understanding of his style into yours and do the moves required. Should he be peanalized by waiting a perscribed time to make his black belt in your style or be ready to test when his ability is up to the level ?

I think that it varies from person to person.

There should not be a time limit on it. I dont think they should get it in a day, a week or a month. But to put a limit like "black belt in 3 years" cheapens it. I  think there should be an alloted time for a student to grasp the concepts, ideas and abilties required for that level then to test. But, i can not say what that time would be because we are all different and pick up things in a different way.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


----------



## bluemtn

I study traditional TKD- shotokan karate/ cdk based, and it takes roughly 4 years to advance to black belt.  Sometimes a little shorter/ longer if you transfer from another style, and it also depends on if you attend regularly, techniques and forms look sharp, etc.


----------



## SMP

I am speaking for my school not my style - The least amount of time would be about 2-1/2 years but usually much much more.


----------



## Brother John

Drunken Master said:
			
		

> Some styles appear to promote students very quickly.
> 
> So I just wanted to find out what style you are practising and how long it takes to achieve a black belt.



How long to:

Recieve a black belt?
Usually 2-4 years, I think.

EARN/DESERVE a Black Belt?
a Life-time!       (But well worth the effort)

Your Brother
John


----------



## TerryC

I recieved my plain blackbelt in 22 months. However, I was fortunate enough at the time to be in a situation where I could workout in the dojo anytime I wished, 24-7, and I usually did work out or have a private lesson 1 - 2 hours a day 7 days a week for almost 10 years. My instructor had no set testing dates or cycles....when he thought you were ready, he called the organization's officers and senior members together and they tested you. The charge for testing was $15 per belt rank, and we only had white, green, brown, and ten degrees of black. Incidentally, the dojo fee was $15 a month...no limit on how much you were at the dojo. Usually you could get instruction from the master any time you showed up as he lived above the dojo.

This was in the 70's and 80's in the Philippines.


----------



## KenpoNoChikara

My dojo teaches Ed Parker's Kenpo, and it takes 4-6 years on average to reach black


----------



## Sin

I don't rally care about my belt rank...all i want is to be better and if it requires me to change he color of my belt ever so often i will do it...i am a yellow belt but I whould wear my white belt with honor and pride cause i know my skill level...i will always consider myself a begginner.....the day you think you are the best is the day your skil starts to decline.


----------



## Enson

there is no black belt in our style. just the founder/master instructor is black. we don't really worry about that in our school. the only person that was offered the black belt test turned it down because he felt he wasn't ready.

peace


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Basically the promotional requirements between the two major US Judo organizations are more or less equivalent; 

minimum time in grade requirements for USJA:

6th kyu  yellow belt     3-4 months
5th kyu  orange belt    4-5 months
4th kyu  green belt      5-7 months
3rd kyu  brown belt      6-9 months
2nd kyu brown belt      8-12 months
1st kyu  brown belt      8-12 months
shodan   black belt      1-2 years

a minimum of 4 years in Judo to receive 1st degree black belt.

generally in the United States, it averages between 4-7 years to earn your shodan (1st degree black belt).


----------



## karatekid1975

I think it depends on the person, like someone said earlier (forgive me for not remembering). Like me, if I stayed in TSD, I would have tested for BB in 4 years. But do to moving, and a few injuries, 4 years later, I'm only a red belt (in TKD). I could test for high red in November, but do to not training much over the summer and family issues, I'm not.

I am not in a rush. I am "picky" also. I won't test if I feel I'm not ready. But then again, I don't take it to extremes either. I won't wait 10 years for 1st dan, but I'd like to earn it when I do test for BB.

I don't know if I actually answered the question in this thread (I didn't go through the whole thing). On average, it takes about 3 to 4 years to get to BB in my dojang. My old dojang was 4 and above. There are a couple that made it in 2 and 1/2 years, but that rare.


----------



## masherdong

It took me a little over 5 yrs to reach my shodan.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Depended on the system, usually 4 years. In one-10 years. In another, until we reached 18.


----------



## TigerWoman

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Depended on the system, usually 4 years. In one-10 years. In another, until we reached 18.



Are you just describing general information? Or do you have multiple black belts?  In what?  TW


----------



## terryl965

I voted more than 4 yrs. basically you never asked for what type of Art. They all have giudelines but that just it giudelines nobody can predict how long, some if they train 6 hours day sevem days a week they will get there faster than someone that trains 1 hour aday twice a week.


----------



## 47MartialMan

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Are you just describing general information? Or do you have multiple black belts? In what? TW


No-Not general. Yes-multiple black belts. And some didn't not even have a ranking system.


----------



## rainbows

By the time I grade for black belt (in 5 weeks time ), I'll have been just under 3 years in TKD. It's quite quick compared to other styles (and actually quicker than my club's average of 4 years), the other girl I'm grading for BB with has a black belt in shotokan and that took her 9 1/2 years to get. My kenpo junior black belt took 5 1/2 years to get.


----------



## TigerWoman

rainbows said:
			
		

> By the time I grade for black belt (in 5 weeks time ), I'll have been just under 3 years in TKD. It's quite quick compared to other styles (and actually quicker than my club's average of 4 years), the other girl I'm grading for BB with has a black belt in shotokan and that took her 9 1/2 years to get. My kenpo junior black belt took 5 1/2 years to get.



You already had basic training so that is probably why your TKD training time was shorter.  Most of the first and second year is largely conditioning.  

Five weeks to your test!  I wish you luck but you probably don't need it as your instructor already knows you are ready.  Happy training then and let us know how it went!  TW


----------



## thepanjr

i think 7 years is the tops


----------



## TigerWoman

thepanjr said:
			
		

> i think 7 years is the tops



Is tops for what art?  What art are you doing?  Did you take seven years to get black belt?  That is what the question is...how long (did you take) to get black belt. It wasn't a guess.  TW


----------



## terryl965

Well it took me 12 years, Istarted out in Okinawa Karate with my father age of 4 that I can remember and he tested me on my 16th b-day, in TKD it took a litle over three years 6 day's a week, 4 hrs. a day.


----------



## 47MartialMan

*How long to Black Belt?*

As *LONG* as it *TAKES*!


----------



## safeeagle

I Read A Book On Chuck Norris Some Years Ago. It Said He Got His Black In Eight Months. Just Thought I Would Put That Out There


----------



## 47MartialMan

safeeagle said:
			
		

> I Read A Book On Chuck Norris Some Years Ago. It Said He Got His Black In Eight Months. Just Thought I Would Put That Out There


What book?


----------



## Drifter

Some people move faster than others, and don't need to stay at a level very long because they 'get it'. Other people slack off and stay where they are. I voted 2 years to 2 and a half years, at least for people who are determined. For those who aren't, I would say never.


----------



## VSanhodo

Personally I dont put a time frame on someone. I think if you worry about time or keep one eye on the clock it will take you longer. I dont promote until I know in my heart of hearts the person is ready, capable and deserving of the rank. 

A year, two, three, ten. I simply dont know. I know Ive never had anyone attain black belt in my school in less than 5 years. Who knows maybe one day.

Thanks

San


----------



## Seabrook

I have kids in my school that are green belts and have been training for 6 years. I also have a brown belt at my club that has been training just three years.

I have promoted two students to black belt of which it took them 8 years, and will have a student go for black belt after just 3 years of training.

The point is that every student is unique. Some practice A LOT, others very little. Some attend classes 3+ times per week, others only once per week. Some take private lessons to enhance their abilities and comprehension of the material, others never do. 

How long does it take the average student to get to black belt? Average students don't get black belts.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## 47MartialMan

Seabrook said:
			
		

> How long does it take the average student to get to black belt? Average students don't get black belts.
> Jamie Seabrook


I like this, but the thread title didnt mention the word "average".


----------



## shesulsa

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> I like this, but the thread title didnt mention the word "average".


I would understand more about your opinion if you would contribute more than one vague line to the conversation.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Drunken Master said:
			
		

> How long does it take to achieve a black belt in your system.


 As long as it takes to learn the required material and be able to show reasonable skill and knowledge with same (1st Degree Black {EPAK}).

 :asian:


----------



## 47MartialMan

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I would understand more about your opinion if you would contribute more than one vague line to the conversation.


I like the use of:
How long does it take the average student to get to black belt? Average students don't get black belts.

Having meaning for acquiring a goal or excellence.

With this, however, if someone is striving for that goal, then they are past the average in they keep their focus.

But, given that martial art styles/systems are different, the criteria or length of study per time will also differ.

So, more time is not always best. or less time is not always worse. Could it be that it depends on the person's abilites or having prior training somewhere else be also considered?


----------



## jdinca

At our school, it seems to take 6-8 years, depending on the person. Kids take longer, just because their kids and for the most part don't have the emotional, or mental maturity yet that is considered necessary for a BB.


----------



## 1redcat

I'm not really sure how long it takes at my school - I think the minimum, assuming a very ambitious and dedicated student, is in the 4 - 4.5 year range (based on what I've been told), so that's what I picked.  In reality, I think it's more like five years.  The pending brown belts have been in the school for about three years, and we have three levels of brown belt, I think, before shodan.  All distant future to me.


----------



## jsdduke

Always an interesting subject and hard to gauge.As far as black belt time frame goes I understand each style and organization have there own requirements, but rank is earned not given.Be that as it may, there is more to Black Belt than physical skills alone. There is a level of maturity that is involved. As a Black Belt you set the standard for the lower ranks whether you believe it or not.Everything you do has bearing on them.Also remembering that 1st Black is just the beginning step in a long and profitable journey.


----------



## Fluffy

TKD seems to go quick, you only need to know the basics.....3-4 years.

-Fluff


----------



## stone_dragone

I began studying karate in March, 1994 and was promoted to Shodan in August 2000. During that time, I also completed 4 years of college, Basic training and AIT in the Army one summer, Jump School another summer, ROTC Advanced camp the summer after that and Air Assault School just prior to testing that August. If I had not gone to college so far away or joined the army, I probably could have tested almost two years earlier. I had not stopped training, practicing or studying for the entire time (and still haven't). Would I have been ready (was I ready in 2000?) I must have been, since I tested. There was a "suggested minimum" time, but it was based on preparedness, maturity, skill, etc. During the eight hour test for Shodan, I lost 10 lbs. 

After moving to Alabama, my ATA instructor knew that I had already studied martial arts for 8 years when I joined his school and waived my minimum time requirement for promotion, and in about a year or so, after completing the curriculum up to 1st Degree, I tested for that rank in front of a board of examiners in a formal manner and passed. The test included forms, breaking and sparring. I was physically acvtive for about 25-35 minutes during that 3 hour test.

When I came to Tennessee, I began studying Jujika Jujutsu (which is more a sub-style of Shotokan than jujutsu) and, having now a decade in the martial arts, my instructor again waived the minimum time for testing and after a year of teaching, training (since his style is very close to my own), and completing the 4 day formal test (including a written exam, verbal, aikijitsu and pressure-point based self-defense, kata, bunkai, sparring and observation over time), I was promoted to Sandan and presented my Menkyo (teaching certificate) in this system. 

In each of the three schools, the standards for testing, the time between tests and the material provided all varied tremendously, even if the requirement had not been waived at the latter two schools. 

Is testing important? It's as important as the student lets it be, the teacher makes it and the intra-school culture requires it to be. 

Are belt/ranks important? To those who feel like they have truly earned it, yes...at least important enough for those who have earned it to be upset when someone who hasn't earned it claims to have it. To those who feel that it is worth lying about, it must be worth it, too. To those who don't need the incumberance of ranks, it must not be, since they don't see the sense in it. 

Is it important to me? Based on my earlier thought, it must be. I get greatly irritated when I see an overweight, lazy 7 year old walking around Wal-mart with a 3rd degree black belt on his waist and a Snickers in his pie-hole (don't get me wrong, I love Snickers!). It's important enough to me to ensure that my students are ready, beyond a shadow of a doubt, for their next level of training before I even consider testing them for the next higher rank. I will NOT be the teacher that is represented by that little fat kid in a karategi. 

Are belts and rank what it's all about? If it is to you, then you probably won't last long enough to get it, any way. If you are studying for the sake of learning, improving and discovering, then the ranks will come.

Those martial artists and teachers that maintain what some would consider a high standard for promotion must be careful, however, to avoid the "Guardian of the Belt" mentality. The feeling that "I got mine, I'll keep you from getting yours" is a problem in military schools (airborne, ranger, etc) as well as in some types of dojos/dojangs/kwoons/gyms/etc. It is our duty to our students to teach them, evaluate them and, if applicable, promote them to the next higher level of training when they have put in the required effort and/or time without making it nearly impossible to attain...whether it be a yellow belt, black belt or some other level of certification. It has to be challenging, since what we gain too easily we esteem too lightly, but it has to be do-able. 

Our responsibility is easy...don't drop the standards to the student, bring the students up to the standard.

I think thats all I have to say about that. Cheers!


----------



## Cirdan

It takes as long as it takes. Some weeks ago a 70year old man at our ju jutsu club achieved his 1.dan after 10 years of dedicated training and I consider that a rare accomplishment.

Anyway I fail to see the black belt (or any other belt) as a goal in it self. It is merely a door you pass trough on the path.

Average time for a fit student who trains regularly?
hmm let`s see...

Karate: 4.5-6 years

Ju jutsu 4-6 years

Nihon Kobudo (TSKSR): 3-4 years


----------



## cali_tkdbruin

Fluffy said:
			
		

> TKD seems to go quick, you only need to know the basics.....3-4 years.
> 
> -Fluff


 
It really depends on the MA style you practice. Your estimate on TKD seems about right. As far as BJJ goes, that could take 8 to 10 years. IMHO, it's really all about your individual style, your dedication and your commitment... :asian:


----------



## AceHBK

Very interesting thread  and a long read I might add.
It all depends on the student and commitment.
I take TKD and when I first started I was all about the belt. Now I have been doing it a year and the belt means nothing to me now.  
It is all about learning more and more and putting time in.
If I could, I wouldnt wear it. If we all take martial arts we know it will take a lot of time, so why think about belts?
It is the knowledge and wisdom that I now care about.
lol..guess after a year you start getting wiser.


----------



## Kacey

There's a minimum of 3 - 3 1/2 year, which is what I put in the poll, but most people take longer.  As Ace said, it depends on the commitment of the person, the number of classes attended, the time spent practicing outside of class, the extra classes attended, and so on... it can take much longer than that, and generally does.


----------



## Haze

Average is about 4 yrs or so at my dojo. I took just over 4 years but have not tested since that (1991) Could have tested back in 1993 for nidan but.................then left training for 12 years..................... back now and they want me to test for nidan after 1 year back..........we will see.............

Thing is at 55 yrs old I am there to train, learn, teach what I can and my belt is black and it can't get any blacker. :idunno:


----------



## Keikai

Within the Tsutsumi Ryu it takes as long as it takes. The "record" to gain Shodan under my teacher was 7 years, the average was more like 12 - 15 years. We all spent a fair while on Nidan and I think the sfirst was at least 10 years. Sandan was another 6 or 7 years.

The main reason for this is the number of sections to each grade.

2nd kyu - 2 parts
1st kyu  - 7 parts
1st dan  - 9 parts
2nd dan - 9 parts
3rd dan - 12 parts

Not all sections are practical but take time to do.

Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu does not have minimu time requirement for gradings. The grades themselves dictate the times. There are no children black grades, it is simply impossible for them to gain black. The degree of technical understanding and written requirements is beyond children.

Greg Palmer 4th Dan
Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu


----------



## Loki

In Krav Maga we average at 7-8 years for black belt, which is 7th in number. Most people take longer, a few people take less.


----------



## Lynne

In my Tang Soo Do school, it takes at least 3-1/2 - 4 years.  That's the minimum.


----------



## Gordon Nore

10 years minimum at mine. Took me eleven, but I probably took at least a year off when I went back to school.


----------



## Fushichou

In the system I'm now training in, the absolute minimum is 3 & 1/2 years if you test as soon as you can and pass every test, but in practice it's often more like 4 or 5 years as people sometimes don't pass their tests (or their instructors don't feel they are ready to test at the minimum amount of time-in-rank and tell them to wait a few months).

Then again, that's a minimum.  I started training in 1998, and have had two long gaps in my training and am now at 3rd Kyu, about to test for 2nd in December.  In terms of actual time at the dojo studying, I've spent about 3 years with this system, and if I keep at it I could make Shodan in a little more than a year and a half from now, making it about 11 years to my 1st Black.

Since it has come up, the system also does not award dan ranks to anybody under the age of 16.  Since in this system a dan rank includes teaching responsibilities and presumes a certain level of responsibility and personal development the idea is that you have to be a certain age and level of maturity to rightfully hold one.


----------



## Fiendlover

if someone is really dedicated to the art then they can probably reach black belt in about 5 years.  that's if they do it the right way.  see some people skip ranks and that really gets on my nerves.  they skip ranks in order to get ahead of everyone else and "be the best" out of everyone.  they take private lessons and pay tons of money to do this when that's not even the point.  the point isn't to get ahead, the point is to do at your own pace and beat yourself not others.  it's not a race.  

i had to get out of karate for two years and still counting for family reasons and i got to 3rd class brown in 4 years in another year i probably would've gotten to black which hopefully as soon as i get my license and a car i can go back to karate and continue my way to black belt.


----------



## Jai

I am testing on a more regular basis then what is normal in Shotokan. The biggest factor is previous training in Karate as well as other styles. I've been told as long as I stay on track and keep working like I have been I should have no problem testing for 1 Dan next September. That would put me at one year and nine months roughly. I don't see it happening that fast personally. sooner or later I'm going to slow down lol.


----------



## terryl965

Jai said:


> I am testing on a more regular basis then what is normal in Shotokan. The biggest factor is previous training in Karate as well as other styles. I've been told as long as I stay on track and keep working like I have been I should have no problem testing for 1 Dan next September. That would put me at one year and nine months roughly. I don't see it happening that fast personally. sooner or later I'm going to slow down lol.


 
There is no hurry Jai take your time, stop smell the roses!


----------



## Jai

terryl965 said:


> There is no hurry Jai take your time, stop smell the roses!



The roses are nice and all but outside factors are fast approaching. I start school in two and a half months, and I have been contacted about a possible new job. Between those my training time will be down to maybe an hour or two a week tops from the six hours a week I currently partake.


----------



## terryl965

Jai said:


> The roses are nice and all but outside factors are fast approaching. I start school in two and a half months, and I have been contacted about a possible new job. Between those my training time will be down to maybe an hour or two a week tops from the six hours a week I currently partake.


 
You are going to be a busy man.


----------



## Jai

That's no joke, but it keeps me out of trouble


----------



## terryl965

Jai said:


> That's no joke, but it keeps me out of trouble


 
Yes it will


----------



## chinto

the averidge seems to be about 7 years or a bit longer.. there are 22 kata and usually a few from goju you get taught as well.. and weapons kata.. at least 4 or more.. and you have to have all of them in full polish too.. so some take 8 years some take 5.8 or so.. but most take from almost 7 years to 7 years really.  a lot to learn and make your own in the system.. i like it as its a great system.. I am a Shobayashi Shorin Ryu student


----------



## AmericanTangSooDo

In my style American Tang Soo Do (Chuck Norris system pre-Chun Kuk Do) it varies depending on the school/organization. At the school I trained at it took a minimum of 5 years. While at the schools of other former Norris black belts and their black belts it takes between 3 and 3 and a half years.

Unfortunately many of these schools have elementary school aged black belts.


----------



## tko4u

Taekwondo, 3 years to 1st dan


----------



## terryl965

tko4u said:


> Taekwondo, 3 years to 1st dan


 
Really must of mine take 4-5 years, maybe I am to picking.


----------



## Cirdan

Interesting results indeed.. breaking them down a bit we currently have

1 in 8 says it takes 3 yrs or less (12,5%)
1 in 3 says it takes more than 3 yrs but less than 5 yrs (35%)
1 in 2 says it takes 5 yrs or more (52,5%)

Seems belt factories are less common than I thought.. or perhaps we don`t get so many from that crowd here. 

Btw we should make another poll with alternatives from 5 to 10 years as well.


----------



## iwingchun

I do the wing chun system and it takes 5 years to achieve a black belt!


----------



## foggymorning162

I answered for myself but it really varies I got mine in 3 1/2 my son has been training 5 and still doesn't have it. But on average an adult who trains regularly, learns the material, and gives back to the school is going to be about 3 1/2 to 4 kids might be a little longer.


----------



## AMP-RYU

I teach a varied style of tae kwon do. It roughly takes about 2 years to reach black belt. The reason being is their are some vary dedicated individuals out there and they shouldn't be held back. I let them develop their skills with as much knowledge as possible. 

white to yellow      2 months
yellow to orange    2 months
orange to green     2 months
green to blue         2 months
blue to purple        2 months
purple to red          4 months
red to brown          4 months
brown to dan black  6 months
______________________
       total               24 months


----------



## seasoned

In a commercial setting you need a gauge, at lease 4 years. On a personal note, that person must possess a well rounded package.


----------



## Geeba12

Inazuma Te Ryu Ju Jutsu Remmei: minimum 3 years. Maximum, a life time.
This question is like asking a person when they will "master" playing a guitar. Who could possibly gauge that?
All Martial Art ranks are based on performance, NOT time in grade.
Those who have pioneered the Arts into the 20th century (Funokoshi, Ueshiba Sensei etc), would be "turning over in their graves" with a question like this.
No disrespect intended with the person who posted this topic.

Regards,
SJG


----------



## Tez3

Geeba12 said:


> Inazuma Te Ryu Ju Jutsu Remmei: minimum 3 years. Maximum, a life time.
> This question is like asking a person when they will "master" playing a guitar. Who could possibly gauge that?
> All Martial Art ranks are based on performance, NOT time in grade.
> *Those who have pioneered the Arts into the 20th century (Funokoshi, Ueshiba Sensei etc), would be "turning over in their graves" with a question like this.*
> No disrespect intended with the person who posted this topic.
> 
> Regards,
> SJG


 

We have no way of knowing that, our times are different from theirs, they were innovators in their times, they understood that time doesn't stand still so who knows how they'd feel about things?
I doubt that wanting to make money from martial arts and cutting corners in teaching is a new thing, I imagine human nature being what it is it was around in their time too. They may not have approved but they would have known this happens.


----------



## terryl965

Well here is another take on it, as long as it takes.


----------



## AMP-RYU

terryl965 said:


> Well here is another take on it, as long as it takes.


 
I like your theory....Terry! I have students that have trained for 6 years and are still red belts while others 2 years and black belt!


----------



## Grenadier

We do have class hour requirements for someone to be _eligible_ to take their rank tests.  However, the class hour requirements are but a single prerequisite.  Even if they have the appropriate number of hours, you still have to look at their proficiency, their attitude, etc., and see if they are truly ready to take the exam.  

The way I see it, if someone can demonstrate the appropriate level of proficiency in the art, and if they can demonstrate that they also meet the physical requirements, then I have no problems with promoting someone to Shodan in a shorter time than the norm.  

If there's nothing to be gained by keeping such folks at the ikkyu rank, then why keep them there?  If someone has already demonstrated proficiency, has the required number of hours, and has a good attitude, then I'll be more than happy to test them, even if they've only had two years of experience.  

On the other hand, if someone has a less than ideal attitude, a less than ideal work ethic, etc., then they won't be taking the exam, until things shape up.  Sometimes, this means that it takes additional years.  

Then, you have students who learn things more slowly than others.  There's nothing wrong with their attitudes; it's just that things simply might not come to them as quickly as it does with your more talented students.  They may take 5 or 6 years to get their black belt when others take 3.  

I don't see that as a problem, since they're still learning the same matierial, and gaining the same proficiencies.  In the end, the finished product is what counts, and if it looks good, then the length of time isn't much of an issue.  

Now, all of statements that I have written in this post, are based on the system in which I train and teach.  In our system, getting the black belt simply means that you have a solid command of the fundamentals, and have demonstrated such proficiency.  In this case, you're ready to take on the more advanced training.  

Having a yudansha ranking in our system does not confer any type of instructor status.  That's something different...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

A lot really depends upon the style and curriculum.  I practice Kukkiwon Taekwondo, and the average is about two years to either first dan or first poom.  To be fair, KKW curriculum isn't so comprehensive that two years would be unreasonable, assuming that the student is regular in class and practices regularly outside of class.  

Daniel


----------



## CDKJudoka

Took me almost 6 years for my chodan in an ITF school. It took me another 4 years after that for my edan. Currently working on my edan in Chung Do Kwan.


----------



## Aikikitty

After almost 8 1/2 years of training, I tested and passed my black belt test just this morning!!! :bangahead: 

Robyn


----------



## Twin Fist

GRATS

/bow


----------



## lemon_meringue

The Opal Dragon said:


> After almost 8 1/2 years of training, I tested and passed my black belt test just this morning!!! :bangahead:
> 
> Robyn



Congratulations!!! :highfive:

It takes around 8-10 years in my system of Ju-Jitsu to achieve a black belt, so I have a loooong way to go!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

The Opal Dragon said:


> After almost 8 1/2 years of training, I tested and passed my black belt test just this morning!!! :bangahead:
> 
> Robyn


Fantastic!!  You must be very proud of this excelent accomplishment!

Daniel


----------



## IcemanSK

The Opal Dragon said:


> After almost 8 1/2 years of training, I tested and passed my black belt test just this morning!!! :bangahead:
> 
> Robyn


 
Fantastic! Congratulations!


----------



## terryl965

The Opal Dragon said:


> After almost 8 1/2 years of training, I tested and passed my black belt test just this morning!!! :bangahead:
> 
> Robyn


 

Congrats and way to go......


----------



## shihansmurf

Well done.

Congrats on reaching an important milestone on your journey.

Mark


----------



## Bruno@MT

In Genbukan Ninpo, it's somewhere between 5 to 10 years, and usually more towards the latter.


----------



## chinto

that seems to depend on the art.  I study an Okinawan art. averidge seems to be about 6.8 to 8 years. some a bit faster, a fair amount a bit longer. 

the thing you must understand is that the test for an Okinawan art for Shodan ho is for all the Kata in the system, and that includes the weapons Kata..  spirit training and endurance training as well at least in our styles case. 

but each art sets its own curriculum and testing criteria and standards.


----------



## Stac3y

My school _says_ 3-5 years, but unless you have no other obligations and don't ever get sick or injured, I think 5 is about right.


----------



## exile

The Opal Dragon said:


> After almost 8 1/2 years of training, I tested and passed my black belt test just this morning!!! :bangahead:
> 
> Robyn



I missed this earlier... that's great, OD! Nothing else feels quite like that, eh? And after 8.5 years of training, you can be pretty damned sure you really did earn that belt!

My school/style sets about 5 years for the lower limit on training time... not set in advance, but that's how it plays out.


----------



## jim777

The Opal Dragon said:


> After almost 8 1/2 years of training, I tested and passed my black belt test just this morning!!! :bangahead:
> 
> Robyn



Sorry I missed this, Congrats! Excellent news


----------



## Aiki Lee

It takes about four years to reach it in aiki ninjutsu, but only if you are very diligent. Some people earn it faster, some people earn it slower. It all depends one when you reach an understanding of the skills you are working on at each belt level.


----------



## Aniela13

It took me 8 years when I studied Kenpo, but I started when I was 6; by comparison, one of my friends started in high school, and it took him just over 3 years. I believe the time range for those at my Cha San Ryu school tends to be 3-6 years, but I know from experience that going to every class possible and putting in plenty of extra time can speed that up   (With graduation looming in the relatively near future, my goal--that instructors tell me is reasonable if I continue to put in the work I have been--is to reach that milestone in ~1.5 years total. But it's also my second art, which changes things too! I really just want the chance to teach before I might have to move away for grad school; I want to give back to my instructors as another instructor if that is at all possible!)

~Ani


----------



## Sandwich

My style was Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, unfortunately the club closed down. The average is about 10 years of fairly regular training.

There are a few exceptions, though. BJ Penn got his black belt in only 3 and a half years, which is pretty much unheard of. However, his dad is rolling in the dough and was able to pay for a lot of private lessons to supplement his 5 day a week training.

They don't call him "The Prodigy" for nothing.


----------



## Milt G.

Hello,

In the Kenpo I study, and most Kenpo systems, I believe the average time to black belt (Shodan) is 4 to 5 years.  Most students who work hard and attend regularly make it just shy of the 5 year mark.  Of course, there are exceptions on both sides.
Took me 10 years...    I am a slow learner, I guess.
I would really question a Kenpo (any system) black belt with 3 or less years in.  Like fine wine, Kenpo takes time.  Should be the case with any martial art, I think?

Thanks,
Milt G.


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## Draven

It all depends on how much work you want to put into your training, it took my 4 years to reach shodan in Shotokan and 2 years to reach nidan in Goju (because they allowed me to test for Shodan day one based on my shotokan training). I did the Bujinkan thing when it was called Togakure Ryu here in the states and it took me a year from 10th Kyu to Shodan.

I personally set an hourly time requirement, you have to log X amount of hours of dojo training...


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## Daniel Sullivan

Sandwich said:


> My style was Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, unfortunately the club closed down. The average is about 10 years of fairly regular training.
> 
> There are a few exceptions, though. BJ Penn got his black belt in only 3 and a half years, which is pretty much unheard of. However, his dad is rolling in the dough and was able to pay for a lot of private lessons to supplement his 5 day a week training.
> 
> They don't call him "The Prodigy" for nothing.


I will be curious to see what the time frame is from beginner to black belt when one takes the classes online through the Gracie online university.  Up to this point, BJJ grading is highly regarded.

Daniel


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## Hakkapeliitta

I practise Seven Star Praying Mantis. In our school, it takes a fairly long time to reach black belt status, a bit over seven years if you do it in the shortest time possible.


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## etali

In my style they say that the "average" person will take three years.  Some people do it sooner, others take longer.  It's possible to rocket through the lower belts, but the actual black belt test is very demanding.  The emphasis is 100% on ability, rather than "time served".


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## Daniel Sullivan

Hakkapeliitta said:


> I practise Seven Star Praying Mantis. In our school, it takes a fairly long time to reach black belt status, a bit over seven years if you do it in the shortest time possible.


I didn't think that CMAs used belts.

Daniel


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## Black Belt Jedi

In my system of Karate it takes the minimum of 4 years, sometimes 5 years to get to Black Belt. If you started at childhood and adolescent years, it would take longer, since my school won't allow students under 16 to grade for Black Belt.


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## Big Don

Why would a jedi need a black belt? Couldn't you just choke mofos from across the room?


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## Black Belt Jedi

Big Don said:


> Why would a jedi need a black belt? Couldn't you just choke mofos from across the room?



Choke people? That's the Sith my friend. :jediduel: I forgot to mention that my system is Goju-ryu Karate.


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## clfsean

Black Belt Jedi said:


> Choke people? That's the Sith my friend. :jediduel: I forgot to mention that my system is Goju-ryu Karate.



No that's perspective, not exclusivity.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Black Belt Jedi said:


> Choke people? That's the Sith my friend. :jediduel: I


And there's only two of them.


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## shihansmurf

I don't have set time standard for promoting my students to black but I notice the average has been 4 to 5 years. I promote based on when the student is ready to begin training in new material, or in the case of a black belt promotion, is ready for more self-directed study.

Mark


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## Indie12

I agree, the poll needs to have more of a selection.

Personally, I believe that if your a minor, than 18 at the earliest or 5-10 years which ever is longest at minimum. Otherwise I say we go back to the old days of years, and years, and years of training before a Black Belt could be awarded.

In our organization, you must have 5 years minimum of training before even being 'considered' for a equivalent rank. Then it's an additional 4-5 years of just training for that position, and then it continues on up 4-5 years in between.


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## Kong Soo Do

Perhaps the correct answer is;  as long as it takes a practitioner to learn the basics of the system to a level of proficiency.  This will differ from student to student and arbitrarily set standards are more for business practice than actual martial learning.  Some people are sponges and learn quickly.  Some aren't.  And some will never achieve a BB level (in a serious art).


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## jasonbrinn

To me the whole point is mute because of the history of ranks in the first place.  What does a rank represent to you?  We can say that a blackbelt means someone is proficient in the basics of an art but my proficiency may not be as "proficient" as another.  A 140lb woman who is a blackbelt standing toe-to-toe against a "brown belt" of the same system who is a 6'4'' 240lb male may just look like a complete novice or worse should they get into it.

The argument is either time requirements and proficiency based on ability to perform the moves or it is knowledge of the moves and ability to demonstrate them.  Sometimes its both but in all three cases the system seems quite flawed.  So what are we after with ranks anyway?

I believe there should be 3 categories of ranking;

1. Knowledge
2. Ability
3. Proficiency (ability to use the material as intended at a high level)

Some teachers I have had that were great could ONLY teach (barely could perform the moves dynamically as intended but were the BEST teachers of the art in relaying the material).  Other teachers were incredible at demonstrating the moves but had NO clue why they worked, how they came about and had the verbal skills of a rock!  Even more I had teachers that beat the ever-living crap out of me and I could do nothing to stop them, however, their form was bad and they NEVER taught me anymore than my body was their punching bag.  Once, maybe twice, I actually had an instructor which encompassed all 3 aspects (masters IMO).

The funny thing is that all of those teachers were high ranking BBs in their respective arts.  Some people say contact hours and certification hours are the way to go, some say fighting competitions are the way, others say something else.  I say that it really only matters to the student and their goals.  If you want to fight study under someone who turns out great fighters (not necessarily a great fighter who turns people into meatloaf) and such as it applies to the other categories.

Rank was intended originally as a tool for the person teaching the class.  So at a quick glance they could group people together to better run the school and teach their classes - nothing more.  Kano gave out ranks all the time too like 13th dan and such.


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## Master Dan

We base ours on age skill and maturity could be 2 years maybe never maybe in six years all of the above I have a 12 year old getting close to poom after six years but he will be held back unless he can prove he is willing to be outstanding in behavior at home and school not just average.


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## Chris Parker

jasonbrinn said:


> To me the whole point is mute because of the history of ranks in the first place.  What does a rank represent to you?  We can say that a blackbelt means someone is proficient in the basics of an art but my proficiency may not be as "proficient" as another.  A 140lb woman who is a blackbelt standing toe-to-toe against a "brown belt" of the same system who is a 6'4'' 240lb male may just look like a complete novice or worse should they get into it.
> 
> The argument is either time requirements and proficiency based on ability to perform the moves or it is knowledge of the moves and ability to demonstrate them.  Sometimes its both but in all three cases the system seems quite flawed.  So what are we after with ranks anyway?
> 
> I believe there should be 3 categories of ranking;
> 
> 1. Knowledge
> 2. Ability
> 3. Proficiency (ability to use the material as intended at a high level)
> 
> Some teachers I have had that were great could ONLY teach (barely could perform the moves dynamically as intended but were the BEST teachers of the art in relaying the material).  Other teachers were incredible at demonstrating the moves but had NO clue why they worked, how they came about and had the verbal skills of a rock!  Even more I had teachers that beat the ever-living crap out of me and I could do nothing to stop them, however, their form was bad and they NEVER taught me anymore than my body was their punching bag.  Once, maybe twice, I actually had an instructor which encompassed all 3 aspects (masters IMO).
> 
> The funny thing is that all of those teachers were high ranking BBs in their respective arts.  Some people say contact hours and certification hours are the way to go, some say fighting competitions are the way, others say something else.  I say that it really only matters to the student and their goals.  If you want to fight study under someone who turns out great fighters (not necessarily a great fighter who turns people into meatloaf) and such as it applies to the other categories.
> 
> Rank was intended originally as a tool for the person teaching the class.  So at a quick glance they could group people together to better run the school and teach their classes - nothing more.  *Kano gave out ranks all the time too like 13th dan and such.*



Woah, how could this one have slipped by? 

Uh, what? Care to back that up with something Jason?


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## frank raud

Rank was intended originally as a tool for the person teaching the class.  So at a quick glance they could group people together to better run the school and teach their classes - nothing more.  Kano gave out ranks all the time too like 13th dan and such.[/QUOTE]

I know Chris just pointed this out, but could you maybe give an example(just one) of a 13th dan rank given by Kano?


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## Chris Parker

Or, say... anyone getting 13th Dan at any point from anyone (legitimately)? Kano himself was promoted to 12th posthumously.... and that's about it.


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## Gentle Fist

Yeah... 13th Dan does not exist in Judo...  What color belt would that even be?  A 12inch wide white belt maybe???


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## Josh Oakley

fistlaw720 said:


> Yeah... 13th Dan does not exist in Judo...  What color belt would that even be?  A 12inch wide white belt maybe???



I was. My actions in the Civil War apparently warranted it. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## kitkatninja

I voted "_4yrs to 4yrs 6mnths_" however, it's not fixed.  I voted for the time it took me to gain my first black belt in Shotokan karate (then another 2 years to gain my 2nd Dan in Freestyle Karate) - this was based on me training 5 times a week, as well as practicing at home.  There were a handful that earned their black belts earlier (as they previouly had black/brown belts in similar arts) and there were students that have taken 5 to 10+ years.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Unless black belt or first dan is some kind of end goal and you intend to move on to another activity or pursue an unrelated goal, then how long it takes you to get there is rather unimportant.  I took my first taekwondo class in something like 1975.  Would it matter at this point if I had been promoted to first pum in 1976 or in 1980?  Or if, in my case, I didn't test for it until late in the last decade?  If you practice the art as part of your life, then the time to black belt is unimportant; the art will always be there.


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## Gentle Fist

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Unless black belt or first dan is some kind of end goal and you intend to move on to another activity or pursue an unrelated goal, then how long it takes you to get there is rather unimportant.  I took my first taekwondo class in something like 1975.  Would it matter at this point if I had been promoted to first pum in 1976 or in 1980?  Or if, in my case, I didn't test for it until late in the last decade?  If you practice the art as part of your life, then the time to black belt is unimportant; the art will always be there.



Very well said!


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## Master Dan

Fluffy said:


> TKD seems to go quick, you only need to know the basics.....3-4 years.
> 
> -Fluff


 about 5 years ago I flew in to our regional NW DoJang to bring two of my colored belts to a TKD and open tournament while there a person wanting to test for 6th Dan drove in some distance to test with his students. I would say the younger ones on average were 14-17. as a courtesy I was asked to sit in on the testing board with our GM and another Senior master. I allowed my green belts to attend and watch and we were somewhat shocked my green belts were far supperior to those testing for bb and at some point I kept looking over at my senior like do you see this and I thought he would slap me out of my chair to imply do you think I am blind he was as horrified as I. Yet all passed and most had been training 6-7 years but in TKD an avg class one hour 2-3 a week just does not get it. The PoomSe and self defense was at best pitiful. there is just at times to much presure to pay the bills in tkd to constantly keep testing and passing to get to the next gup or Dan test fees? That does not mean all are bad and there are those that work very hard and unfortunately there are masters who just do not know any better. 1st Dan should mean you know and can teach all the basics well.


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## Gentle Fist

Master Dan said:


> about 5 years ago I flew in to our regional NW DoJang to bring two of my colored belts to a TKD and open tournament while there a person wanting to test for 6th Dan drove in some distance to test with his students. I would say the younger ones on average were 14-17. as a courtesy I was asked to sit in on the testing board with our GM and another Senior master. I allowed my green belts to attend and watch and we were somewhat shocked my green belts were far supperior to those testing for bb and at some point I kept looking over at my senior like do you see this and I thought he would slap me out of my chair to imply do you think I am blind he was as horrified as I. Yet all passed and most had been training 6-7 years but in TKD an avg class one hour 2-3 a week just does not get it. The PoomSe and self defense was at best pitiful. there is just at times to much presure to pay the bills in tkd to constantly keep testing and passing to get to the next gup or Dan test fees? That does not mean all are bad and there are those that work very hard and unfortunately there are masters who just do not know any better. 1st Dan should mean you know and can teach all the basics well.



I saw some similar things back in my Kenpo days and remember feeling proud and at the same time disgusted...


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## Balrog

Short hand answer - as long as it takes.  The minimum that someone with no prior experience can make 1st Degree in our school is 32 months, and that's if they ace every testing.  Most folks take 36+ months to make it.


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## FabianosKarate

Our school is a Matsumura Seito Shorin-ryu school. Our MINIMUM requirements for a Black Belt is 3 years. This would be coming 4-5 times per week and testing on the first testing date you could. This would be provided that Sensei Fabiano feels you are ready and you pass. All of our black belts have been tested by Sensei Fabiano and we all have to go under the same scrutiny. All of us must perform all of our Katas, Wazas, and Weapons Katas from the beginning up to the current rank. We also must spar with the Adult class with no breaks, no drinks or anything for 1 full hour. We then must pass the "black belt gauntlet" which is a 60-second sparring round with each black belt in the school who shows up that night (generally 10-15 of them).


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## brownie710

I train in Zen-Do Kai (American not BJC) and 6-8 years is fairly standard from what I have seen. Although some have earned their black belt in 4 years they are recognized as very gifted martial artists. I've only been training for about a year but it seems the self defense portions are what take the most time to develop for testing. As we are strongly rooted in street style self defense a large part of testing is multiple attacks (empty hand, knife,club, gun) as well as two man self defense before sparring one and two man matches. It seems from the testing I have seen that the forms, kata, single person sparring and three step drills are mastered more quickly than the free form self defense, hence the longer time between belts until Shodan.


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## skeksi

I also say it takes as long as it takes. At my school, it depends on a person's previous martial arts experience, experience with other physical activities (sense of their body in motion), frequency of attendance and commitment to studying seriously outside of class. Some people have moved to shodan 4 years or so; it took me nearly six. It's not a denotation that means much, in the end, except to show that you have been studying seriously for a while.


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## Blaze Dragon

I think it depends on a great deal of things, style (ie number of ranks and material per rank), school, and student.

I've seen schools that you get your belt based on time and money, you will be promoted if you show up and try. I've seen these schools to promoted even if our not ready. I've not been fond of these "program dojos". Granted in some cases if they follow the program they will be ready but I've seen some piss pour black belts come out of programs like this.

I also think style makes a difference and how many ranks there are. Some schools I've seen do the tip system where you stay the same rank but you change the number of tips or strips on your belt, this way you still see progress but your ranking at a different pace sometimes. 

Lastly I think it's the student the more they put in, I've known schools that promote when your ready.

My school is like that, if your ready you get promoted if not, you don't...

for me I started 02/03/2009, I had previous martial arts experience and understood stances and striking so my instructor was able to focus more on the forms and the variation of the techniques compared to what I had done. I received my first degree black sash on 11/10/2011 so just shy of 3 years. I've yet to rank up again, as I'm not ready yet. I've also been working on there external system and I'm still only a 2 degree brown belt, so for the external which we don't focus as much on it's going to take me much longer. Which i'm fine with, they'll let me know when they feel I'm ready and in the mean time they keep teaching, I keep learning


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## karatemom3

It took me 4 years to get my Cho Dan in Soo Bahk Do and 4 more for 2nd degree.  Then I went to TKD and got a black belt in 6 months.


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## ilhe4e12345

this has always been a topic that bounces around in my head. I personally am at what most would consider a green belt level (I train 7 Star Praying Mantis KungFu) I have been training with my current Sifu for almost 4 years now (So I average about a belt a year but I only get to train once a week and this pasrt year I have been unable to train for about 4 months due to a pretty serious injury that im recovering from) but i always personally believed that its up to the student to push themselves as hard as they want. I have seen a few schools that give out black belts like they are candy on halloween, an example is a local karate school down the street from where I live has given out black belts to children as young as 12 (not to say they are taleneted or dont know the style but it just seems young for me) and other schools I have seen give out one black belt in 2 years....

A friend of mine who I train with on and off when hes back in the area has been training in TKD for 10+ years. I met him back when I  was a bouncer at a local strip club and since then we have trained together. He told me that he earned his Black Belt in 2 years but trained every single day and went to class 4-6 times a week including private lessons and traveled all over the place to see other teachers as well. He is someone who earned his black belt in such a short time and has proven it time and time again to me both in our training together and back at the club during hand to hand situations involving routy drunks. 

It just comes down to how you train....I personally would lvoe to train as hard as he did (my friend Josh) but due to work and my current injury I cannot ....but i tell you this, Josh has told me on many occations that my "green belt level" of knowledge is very good and that I can sometimes give him a run for his money (accept for kicking...when it coems to that, HE DESTROYS ME LOL)


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## MPC1257

I have been studying Kun Tao Dumpag for the last 6 1/2 years.  The belt progression is, white (only belt that is given at a certain level of proficiency without requiring a test), yellow, purple, brown and black.  My instructor observes everyone and decides when we are ready to test, he then gives us a future test date.  
I earned my yellow belt in August 31, 2008 and I just earned my purple belt on October 7, 2012.  I expect that I won't be ready for brown for at least 2 or more years, and another couple\few years before testing for black.  There really isn't an emphasis on getting belts here, but after spending over an hour of hell to earn the belt, you do feel a sense of accomplishment and are proud to wear it, regardless of color.


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## Giant Marshmallow

I think it depends on a lt of factors at my school.  When we tests [for the lower belts], there is a panel of judges and they award you the belt based on how well you perform.  I have had one session of classes (12 weeks) and set myself a goal of getting brown belt before I turn 50 (2.25 years from when I started) and my instructor is not sure I can make it.  I think I can*   Anyway, black belt is about 2-3 years after brown belt (there is brown, then brown with the black stripe) so I will say at a bare minimum of 4 years, but likely closer to 6.

*my first test I was expecting a yellow belt (skipping the orange) but I got Red, a real shock to me, but it means I am certainly on track for my goal


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## Aiseant

We don't really have the choice when we're affiliated to the french federation of taekwondo : they require you to be 1st geup but also to have at least 4 years of practice of taekwondo (in a club affiliated to the fed)
Only geup can be given by your master, no one can discuss his decision and you need to be 1st geup to pass your 1st dan exam ... so sabeum decides when you're ready, but not before those 4 years, anyways.

We see sometimes people with a 1st (or more) dan not given by the federation ... it's generally sign of mcDojang. I don't get why people are doing this if it's not commercial trick (like giving away black belt to students to keep them in your school, of showing off your school have many black belts so it's good one), and I always felt sorry for them when they're coming to federation competitions : how would you feel publicly removing your black belt for a red one ?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

karatemom3 said:


> It took me 4 years to get my Cho Dan in Soo Bahk Do and 4 more for 2nd degree.  Then I went to TKD and got a black belt in 6 months.


To be perfectly honest, I respect you 2nd degree in Soo Bahk Do and admire you for your dedication. However, I do not respect your black belt in TKD and highly doubt it is a legitimate black belt.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

As for my school, don't know anyone who has gotten it in less then 3 years, and only 3 people who have gotten it in less than 5, all of whom were both incredibly talented and determined until black belt (unfortunately, 2 of them ended up leaving the dojo within a year or two of them getting the belt. The other one became a sensei, but ended up moving, is now practicing BJJ somewhere upstate).


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## Dirty Dog

karatemom3 said:


> It took me 4 years to get my Cho Dan in Soo Bahk Do and 4 more for 2nd degree.  Then I went to TKD and got a black belt in 6 months.





kempodisciple said:


> To be perfectly honest, I respect you 2nd degree in Soo Bahk Do and admire you for your dedication. However, I do not respect your black belt in TKD and highly doubt it is a legitimate black belt.



You might want to reconsider your position, then. 
Given the similarity between Soo Bahk Do and TKD (especially if the TKD is from the Moo Duk Kwan line), it should be no suprise that a person with Dan rank in one could earn Dan rank in the other in a short time.
The differences between the two are so small that even someone familiar with both would be hard pressed to tell which they were watching, especially given that there are TKD schools that use the same pyung-ahn forms taught by most Soo Bahk Do schools.

Now, if she had gone from a Soo Bahk Do Eedan to a Kenjutsu Shodan in 6 months (or some other equally unrelated style), your skepticism (and lack of respect for her accomplishments) might be more justified.


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## celtic_crippler

I share the opinion of the late SGM Ed Parker, founder of American Kenpo. Attaining a black belt should be no different than attaining a BS from a University or College... which takes about 4 years on average. The degree of study and application necessary to achieve that rank and be considered an "expert" is no different than any other discipline. 

Of course, that doesn't account for those special people who pour their heart and soul into their training daily. After all, you usually get out of something what you put into it; therefore, there would be cases where one might achieve that rank quicker than the average Joe.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Dirty Dog said:


> You might want to reconsider your position, then.
> Given the similarity between Soo Bahk Do and TKD (especially if the TKD is from the Moo Duk Kwan line), it should be no suprise that a person with Dan rank in one could earn Dan rank in the other in a short time.
> The differences between the two are so small that even someone familiar with both would be hard pressed to tell which they were watching, especially given that there are TKD schools that use the same pyung-ahn forms taught by most Soo Bahk Do schools.
> 
> Now, if she had gone from a Soo Bahk Do Eedan to a Kenjutsu Shodan in 6 months (or some other equally unrelated style), your skepticism (and lack of respect for her accomplishments) might be more justified.


I had not known during my first post that the two styles were so similar. I'm sorry if the post seemed rude, but I had assumed that they were two schools with a bigger separation in style since she stated it as if she went to a different MA, then got her bb super quickly.


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## karatemom3

Dirty Dog, thank you for defending me.  Kempodisciple, I don't think you were rude.  It is a common opinion.  To get my black belt in TKD I had to do endurance  and  learn 10 forms.  They all were basically a series of basic moves; with  many  of the forms done in the same pattern.  You can You Tube Songahm TKD forms if you want to see what I mean.  They did not embrace the "advanced" breathing techniques  and use of hip that was required as a E Dan in Soo bahk Do.  The curriculum did not include regular self defense and we rarely did one step drills so we did forms every class; and sparring. Under those circumstances I memorized the forms.  It was a legitimate black belt within the Songahm TKD  community.   The art did not impress me but the people did. I was shown respect by every one I came in contact with.  I probably would not have continued in martial arts if I had not found this school.


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## PhotonGuy

Drunken Master said:


> Some styles appear to promote students very quickly.
> 
> So I just wanted to find out what style you are practising and how long it takes to achieve a black belt.



It would depend on the school and the student. Some schools are harder than others and in those places it would take the same student longer to get a black belt than at an easier school. Also, as I said, it would depend on the student, how hard the student works, and if the student cares about rank advancement. Some students don't care about rank, they're in the martial arts for other stuff, so for them black belt would be a non issue.


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## Hanzou

It takes well over 10 years to become a black belt in Bjj. I think the average these days is about 14 years.


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## PhotonGuy

Hanzou said:


> It takes well over 10 years to become a black belt in Bjj. I think the average these days is about 14 years.



I've heard of people getting a black belt in Bjj in six years.


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## elder999

PhotonGuy said:


> I've heard of people getting a black belt in Bjj in six years.



Alberto "Tough Gringo "Crane, originally of Santa Fe, NM, earned his _faixa preta_ from Vinicius "Draculino" Margahales in a little _less_ than 6 years.


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## Tony Dismukes

PhotonGuy said:


> I've heard of people getting a black belt in Bjj in six years.



B.J. Penn got his in 4 years, but he was ridiculously talented and was training long hours every day.

The typical norm in BJJ is 10-15 years. I've been training 12 years and I'm a 2-stripe brown belt. I've got at least a couple more years to go before making black, so I'll probably end up at the upper end of the normal range.

On the other hand, I've got black belts in a couple of other arts that only took me 3-4 years each to attain. It really varies all over the place from art to art and individual to individual.


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## jezr74

Tony Dismukes said:


> B.J. Penn got his in 4 years, but he was ridiculously talented and was training long hours every day.
> 
> The typical norm in BJJ is 10-15 years. I've been training 12 years and I'm a 2-stripe brown belt. I've got at least a couple more years to go before making black, so I'll probably end up at the upper end of the normal range.
> 
> On the other hand, I've got black belts in a couple of other arts that only took me 3-4 years each to attain. It really varies all over the place from art to art and individual to individual.



Does it actually take that long to learn the system? Or are there time and age retirements between levels?


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## Tony Dismukes

jezr74 said:


> Does it actually take that long to learn the system? Or are there time and age retirements between levels?



Other than a common requirement to be 16 before getting a blue belt*, there are no set rules about age or time in grade up to black belt. The biggest requirement is for demonstrated skill on the mat.  Some instructors have official tests including demonstration of the curriculum, others just base promotion on years of observing the student, but all require consistent proven ability in live grappling. It takes a lot of hours to get the skill level expected of a BJJ black belt. After black belt, subsequent promotions are mostly based on time in grade spent teaching.

*(not necessarily a hard and fast rule. We have a very hard working and talented young man in out gym who got his blue belt at age 15. At that point he had been training and grappling with the adults for a couple of years and doing very well.)


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## PhotonGuy

So while every style that uses belts has its own system and you will find variance in each belt system, I believe many belt systems have some things in common. In many belt systems, from what I've seen the belt color right before black is brown, and usually there are three levels of brown, there's brown 1, brown 2, brown 3, and then black, first degree. Some systems might have a red belt right before black instead of brown but many systems use a brown belt with three levels, from what I've seen.


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## donald1

Or both,  I've been to one dojo had both brown and red before black


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## PhotonGuy

donald1 said:


> Or both,  I've been to one dojo had both brown and red before black



So did the belt order go brown, red, black or red, brown, black?


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## donald1

Brown,  red,  then black,  it was a TKD school about 45 miles from where I train (i know cause our school has been invited there few times; nice dojo)


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