# Would you train under a fat and out of shape JKD guy



## James Kovacich

Wouldn't it kind of go against some of what JKD represents?


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## rooke

I figure most good martial artists fall into:
1) Good teacher
2) Good technician
3) Good fighter

A fat teacher could be 1 or 2 or both. He may have been 3 earlier in life. He can still teach alot. He just may not be able to demonstrate it.

Its easy to find someone good in at least 2 of these. Its VERY hard to find someone good in all 3. And being a good fighter means they must have competed or used it significantly at some point....then it get's more difficult trying to determine what's a glorified recollection, versus statistical fact. Easier to verify #3 in BJJ, as at least competition results will give some type of reading.

Rooke

PS: Geez James! Now you're making me feel guilty for the pizza I had last night!


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## Blindside

What does JKD represent with regard to physical fitness?  Is there a BL quote out there that says "fat people need not apply?"  Personally, I'm a "show me" kind of guy, if the guy can pull off what he is showing, fantastic.  If not, well, I going to be pretty skeptical, and if I am skeptical of an instructor for very long I'm probably going to be looking for a new one.


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## Omar B

You can learn something of value from anyone.  If his credentials are in order why not?  I've seen instructors who are a couple steps away from what one would consider ideal.


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## jarrod

while you can be very skilled while being out of shape, BL was pretty clear in his writings & his life on the high value of physical fitness in his jkd.  so i'd be much less likely to train under an out of shape jkd instructor than other out of shape teachers.    

jf


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## blindsage

I thought the notion that martial artists had to look slim and cut to be good and/or in shape was ended by Sammo Hung's existence.


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## Jenny_in_Chico

Fat does not always equal out of shape. There are a lot of fat people out there who are incredibly muscular and who have amazing cardio and endurance. Although I myself am fat (and my cardio needs improvement), my muscular development and strength is exceptional, and I am a fast and lethal striker.

Of course, there are also lots of fat peope who are, indeed, out of shape. But the two are not mutually exclusive.


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## James Kovacich

I'm sorry everyone, fat is a bad  choice of words. I really was thinking grossly out of shape.


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## jarrod

what are your thoughts, & also what brought this question to mind?

jf


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## Tez3

*Would you train under a fat and out of shape JKD guy* 

I would if it were any stand up art but I wouldn't train literally under him in BJJ!


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## James Kovacich

I borowed the topic from another forum and the responses were very interesting. I'm only posting my thoughts though. I personally beleive that weight isn't an issue but grossly out of shape very much is.

JKD the art, requires physical abilities, the training alone requires physical abilities.


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## prokarateshop

He may have a lot of knowledge.. he may not have the conditioning to fight...


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## dungeonworks

I would have no problems if the guy was overweight.  Especially if he was knowlegeable and a good credentialed teacher.  If he was morbidly obese and didn't try to take care of himself, probably not.  Over the years, I have trained with lots of beer gut carriers that were fast, had good cardio, and fun to train with.  Nothing scarier than a big guy that can move!


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## geezer

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> *Fat does not always equal out of shape*. There are a lot of fat people out there who are incredibly muscular and who have amazing cardio and endurance. Although I myself am fat (and my cardio needs improvement), my muscular development and strength is exceptional, and I am a fast and lethal striker.
> 
> Of course, there are also lots of fat peope who are, indeed, out of shape. But the two are not mutually exclusive.



My WC instructor is significantly overweight. He is also fast, skilled and amazingly strong. I'm older, bigger, much more fit, and actually began training  years before he did. But he's way better than I am. And, fat or not, he can use his strength way more efficiently...

So, heck yes I'll keep training with him. I'd be an idiot not too.


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## fangjian

If someone chose not to train with someone because they are overweight, it would be incredibly rude.


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## simplicity

Are you guys kidding me?  I can learn from anyone....


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## ap Oweyn

I guess the question _behind_ the question is "does a teacher have to be able to _perform_ the art himself in order to teach _you_ to do it?"

Instinctually, it makes sense that he would.  But then that fails to explain folks like Cus D'Amato.  Boxing puts a high premium on fitness, performance, and actual results.  But that doesn't necessarily mean that a coach has to--at present--be able to do the things he's advocating.

I've had teachers who were confined to a wheelchair, walked with a cane, etc.  Not generally capable of doing the things that they were telling me to do.  (Though that doesn't mean that they had _never_ been able to do what they were telling me to do.  But regardless, it doesn't mean that they were incapable of insight on something, even without direct personal experience.)

Being a good teacher and being a good fighter don't necessarily always intersect.  Certainly, I think it's valuable to be able to draw from personal and immediate experience.  And it's very tempting to discount anyone who can't "practice what they preach."  At the same time, the ability to motivate a fighter, observe them, adapt their movements, and analyze their performance is what makes a good teacher.  And I'm not entirely convinced that requires that you be able to "keep up" with them on the mat.


Stuart


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## jkd friend

I would nut i would like to see there work ethic.


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## turbo1975

First if you are training or learning JKD: Bruce said you have to test yourself and techniques in SPARRING....if your FAT...you can't do this! Please dont argue this point! Now I think he can lecture you on a philosophical level and you can learning it...but you will not be doing JKD!

But the whole technician crap....read below.  

This is from a question asked of Matt Thornton:

*What about those that say you can be a good technician without necessarily being a good fighter. 

*Think about it... how can you be a good technician if you can't fight? It doesn't make any sense. You don't say... hey that guy is a good boxing technician... but when he spars he just gets mauled everytime. Or that wrestler is a good technician, but his takedowns suck... or that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guy is a good technician, but he cant fight on the ground at all. If you said that you would sound insane. But people say that in JKD all the time. Its another in a long line of myths. 

You can be a tough fighter without being technical, due to aggresion, size, explosiveness, strength, etc. But you cannot be a good technician without being able to fight, its impossible. 

Its similar to when people tell me they think I have taken the Art out of Martial Arts... that its all about fighting only with us... I reply, Art of what? 

The Art is in the performance, the doing. Art is in the performance, sharing, and experience of the training itself. 

Also, anyone can be a fighter. A good coach can show anyone of even moderate to low athletic ability and intelligence what it takes to become a good fighter. Now, not everyone may then want, or need, to make the sacrifices necessary to get to that level of performance.


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## still learning

Hello, Two Barbers...one super nice haircut..the other..not so nice..

Which one would you choose to cut your "hair" ?
-------------------------------------------------------------

Answer: the guy with the ugly haircut...because he cut the Nice haircut guy!

Yes..images is very important...NOT a necessity....Playing a role model is expect in the Martial arts...many expect our Teachers to be physical fit conditions and many are..

Knowledge and teaching skills...has nothing to do with a big body....

...if the person is knowable and skillful in teaching...we would train under them, 

Aloha, ....now the question is? ...what shape are you in? ..for your learnings..

300lb Teacher teaches you a 540 spinning kick or 300lb student learning a 540 spinning kick...which would have a better outcome? ...


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## Joab

I don't think it matters at all. He can still be a good teacher even if he is out of shape. We all have our problems.


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## chinaboxer

*"Would you train under a fat and out of shape JKD guy?"*

heck yeah! then i would finally have someone else who would appreciate all you can eat Korean BBQ after training as much as i do!


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## Gordon Nore

Sammo Hung had a great tag line in the short-lived TV series Martial Law. He used to say, "I'm not out of shape, just fat." Hung proved that to be the case in every action scene.


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## Rich Parsons

Is this for personal training? i.e. work out. 

Is this for competition?

Is this for Self Defense?

If for competition, then training with people in teh same weigth class is good. Sometimes a weight class bigger is good as well. But 120 to 140 lbs guys usually do not train competition with 300 lb guys. 

But for self defense, I would think people should train with all shapes and sizes and skill sets for their own defense. If someone significantly large in length and width than you gets on top of you and just has to lay there to physically prohibit you from moving and or breathing then one needs to be aware of this and what options if any do they have. 

But these are specifics and may not be what you want 100% of the time.

Find an isntructor who teaches in a style you can understand and learn from. Some people learn from hearing, others from watching parallel and others in mirror, while other need to feel it and others need to have it done to them and or do it to others. Some need to hear it three or four times and some need to do it or have it done numerous times, et al.


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## David43515

Since my training goals are just self defense, heck yeah I`d train with a fat teacher. I`m a fat bastard. I`ve been a teacher. I`ve bounced professionally. And I sparred regularly. 

I`ll be the first to admit I don`t have the wind to spar nonstop for a couple hours the way a competative boxer does. But real fights don`t last a couple hours. I`ve got more wind than the collage weightroom nuts that used to come to the bar. Most of them thought smoking 2 packs a day made them grown ups. 

 Don`t make the mistake of automatically assuming fat = lazy,slow,unintelligant, or incompetant. Yang Cheng Fu became grossly overweight as he got older. And he was still beating China`s top fighters in challenge matches. There`s a reason flyweights don`t knock out heayweights.


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## Laoshi77

Gordon Nore said:


> Sammo Hung had a great tag line in the short-lived TV series Martial Law. He used to say, "I'm not out of shape, just fat." Hung proved that to be the case in every action scene.


 
Sammo also said: "I may look like an elephant, but I move like a monkey".

If the JKD guy can teach and fight well then that is all that matters. 

I've studied with people in China who we might suggest are fat but on close inspection are actualy solid and could bounce you around with very little movement at all. Of course I'm talking highly skilled Taijiquan and Qigong people here; to judge a person by how they look is an example of the world we live in. We are often too inclined to think about things from a material perspective.


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## sfs982000

James Kovacich said:


> I'm sorry everyone, fat is a bad choice of words. I really was thinking grossly out of shape.


 
Well as the old saying goes "never judge a book by it's cover".  Besides round is a shape


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## James Kovacich

True. That reminds me of a (American) guy a I used to work with. He said something like. I wouldn't go to a martial art school not run by an Asian because evryone else is faking it.


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## David43515

Ask you friend if he eats pizza that`s not made by Italians or buys coffee made by anyone other than Turks or Columbians. He`s an idiot.


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## blindsage

I used to train in Kyokushin with a guy who was a brown belt when I started. He was pretty fat. Not he's a big guy with a little extra around the middle but in pretty good shape fat, but wow he's round fat. And it was not because he was inactive, but because of genetics. He regularly taught and sparred. He also had some of the best defensive technique I've ever come across. He was extraordinarily difficult to hit in full contact sparring. I might not train with every fat guy I came across, but I would train under him.

My current sifu talks about his sifu being pretty round in the middle. He also talks about it being solid, and given the quality of what my sifu learned from him, I wish I had been around before he died regardless of his stomach size.

Quality is quality regardless of size and shape. If you think you have to look like Bruce or a fitness model to either be in good shape, or be able to fight, you have a hard lesson coming. I hope there's video.


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## James Kovacich

While doing BJJ several years back. There was a huge (maybe 280-300lb.) guy inour class who worked construction and didn't take a shower befrore class. 

WOW! Sorry about off topic, but nobody wanted to roll with him.


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## Jimi

I know this example is not of a JKD practioner or instructor, but think about this. K-1 Champ Mark Hunt is a heavy weight that if not seen in the ring as a fighter and if you were to see him on the street not knowing who he is as a fighter, many would consider him fat, out of shape and yet he bangs out in full contact. Us Super HeavyWeights carry a lot of power with the extra mass. I know when sparring in the past, even w/ a beer gut, I turn my waist over for a power (Thai, Burmese) low round kick to the thigh I uproot even HeavyWeights. 

I guess I would not agree that simply because an Instructor is Large, Fat, Over Weight, he can not nor doesn't have the right to teach or instruct. Super Heavy Weights can fight too, thats why we have our own division. Divisions of fighting or instruction should not be decided by physec(sp?) alone. 

Not every Martial Artist will be as fit as Bruce Lee, Billy Banks or Jean Claude. Fitness is not always funcational depending on the individual, I have seen men who are very Gym fit, sculpted, hairless, lol, oiled up and pumped but could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag. 



But, I do agree that anyone instructing who is grossly out of shape will have difficulty getting any cred even w/ a youth full of fighting experience. I would not want to train under a JKD Instructor who was grossly out of shape although if he had good knowledge, principle, and skill to offer I could reconsider, but on the same token, I would like to learn to cook from a grossly out of shape chef. LOL. Kidding.

If all coaches/instructors were to be tossed out due to current (aged or health issues) shape, many great coaches would never have helped others. I believe someone mentioned Cus earlier. Ok, old fat man, step aside for the fit young 22yo, he is the head trainer now, lol. That is why there is the generalization of youth in fighting and age in coaching, and it is true, if a coach gets results, then being out of shape is acceptable to an extent. No you are too fat to fight or coach, it is all light weights here, move along big boy.

James, I think I am w/ you on this, your restating the issue as GROSSLY OUT OF SHAPE is a bit different then just heavy, or (LOL) big boned.


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## turbo1975

Gordon Nore said:


> Sammo Hung had a great tag line in the short-lived TV series Martial Law. He used to say, "I'm not out of shape, just fat." Hung proved that to be the case in every action scene.


 
He proved that he could act not Spar w/resistance or fight! Totally not the same thing.


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## ap Oweyn

turbo1975 said:


> He proved that he could act not Spar w/resistance or fight! Totally not the same thing.


 
But there are successful _fat_ fighters.


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## James Kovacich

This isn't one of them.


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## Steve Grody

When one of Dan Inosanto's friends said he shouldn't study with so-and-so (who Dan thought had interesting material) because Dan could surely kick his butt, Dan said "Well, that's like saying I shouldn't talk to Angleo Dundee, Ali's trainer because he's a old guy now and surely I could kick his butt!" So indeed, if the guy can give you good training in some regard, that's all that matters.

stevegrody.com


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## dungeonworks

Steve Grody said:


> When one of Dan Inosanto's friends said he shouldn't study with so-and-so (who Dan thought had interesting material) because Dan could surely kick his butt, Dan said "Well, that's like saying I shouldn't talk to Angleo Dundee, Ali's trainer because he's a old guy now and surely I could kick his butt!" So indeed, if the guy can give you good training in some regard, that's all that matters.
> 
> stevegrody.com



Good point and I agree!


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## Drac

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> Fat does not always equal out of shape. There are a lot of fat people out there who are incredibly muscular and who have amazing cardio and endurance. Although I myself am fat (and my cardio needs improvement), my muscular development and strength is exceptional, and I am a fast and lethal striker.
> 
> Of course, there are also lots of fat peope who are, indeed, out of shape. But the two are not mutually exclusive.


 
I remember when I first showed up to teach in the police academy..A couple of the younger and more muscular cadets doubted the fat grey haried cops teaching abilities, until they got slammed when they attemped to get fancy..It drove home a valuable lesson to *NEVER *under estimate anyone..


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## sgtmac_46

James Kovacich said:


> Wouldn't it kind of go against some of what JKD represents?



I don't know......i'm of a mixed opinion.....someone made a point in another thread that lots of winning Wrestling and Football coaches are out of shape and fat.......does that mean that can't impart champion skills on to their players?  Obviously not!

I think when we look for a teacher, we should be looking on whether he can make US better.........


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## sgtmac_46

Steve Grody said:


> When one of Dan Inosanto's friends said he shouldn't study with so-and-so (who Dan thought had interesting material) because Dan could surely kick his butt, Dan said "Well, that's like saying I shouldn't talk to Angleo Dundee, Ali's trainer because he's a old guy now and surely I could kick his butt!" So indeed, if the guy can give you good training in some regard, that's all that matters.
> 
> stevegrody.com



Yeah, see that's exactly the thing.......only in TMA's do expect teachers and coaches to be able to do EXACTLY what they can get us to do.

In wrestling and boxing we accept that trainers and coaches are old and out of shape.......and yet those same coaches can impart ASTOUNDING skills on their charges.


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## sgtmac_46

ap Oweyn said:


> But there are successful _fat_ fighters.



Gene Lebell is getting fat and old.......anyone want to roll with Gene?


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## Gary Crawford

Fat? JKD guy? James, are we talking about anyone specific?


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## Tensei85

James Kovacich said:


> While doing BJJ several years back. There was a huge (maybe 280-300lb.) guy inour class who worked construction and didn't take a shower befrore class.
> 
> WOW! Sorry about off topic, but nobody wanted to roll with him.


 
Haha, we had a similar person in Judo except he always ate Menudo before coming to practice! The worst days of my life...


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## masherdong

ap Oweyn said:


> But there are successful _fat_ fighters.



Just look at Roy "Big Country" Nelson in the UFC.  He's fat and he is successful.


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## l_uk3y

I'll just ask 2 questions about this fat/out of shape JKD trainer.

Is he Motivated with his teaching?
Does he appear to be producing quality martial artists at the school?

As long as the teacher is there because they love what they do and they can teach others the system to a high level. What more do you need?



> Wrestling and Football coaches are out of shape and fat.......does that mean that can't impart champion skills on to their players? Obviously not!



They call them trainers/teachers for this reason. 
Judge by there teaching, not there looks.

Luke


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## James Kovacich

Gary Crawford said:


> Fat? JKD guy? James, are we talking about anyone specific?


 Not who you might be thinking of. When I realized I may of disrespected someone who I respect, I cleared the air with him.


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## JDenver

I apologize for not reading all 4 pages of posts so far---

I DEFINITELY WOULD TRAIN UNDER SUCH A MAN.  Here's why.

In my work, non martial arts related, I once met a woman who was clearly out of shape.  She liked to sit and watch.  I later discovered that she was a highly regarded and well respected movement instructor.  Now, maybe she couldn't actually DO the movement, but she knew her stuff and knew how to get it into you; dancers, actors, etc.

From that one incident, I now dispute the notion that a teacher MUST be able to show and do what they are teaching.  Untrue for me.


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## Fumbling Dufus

sgtmac_46 said:


> Gene Lebell is getting fat and old.......anyone want to roll with Gene?


 
+10! Exactly what I was thinking! Another that came to mind was Larry Hartsell. For awhile, he sported a decent gut. Either of them could put a serious hurt on you.


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## shihansmurf

I would with the caveat "as long as the instructor didn't lecture me on the importanct of weight control and diet". I have a serious personal hang up about overweigt martial art instructors that preach on the merits of self control and fitness, but aside from that I am willing to learn from any knowlegdable teacher.

Mark


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## Shawn

I think it just depends on if you are looking for a fitness instructor or a martial arts instructor. I know many people people who work as instructors at "fitness" kickboxing gyms who are in fantastic shape - but know only the most basic material (if that). I also know quite a few very knowledgeable martial arts instructors who are not exactly in top shape. Some good examples were given earlier.

So, "yes" I would train under a fat JKD guy if he knew his stuff - for that matter I'm not exactly sporting a six pack myself.

Shawn
http://www.trinityjunfan.com


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## Andrew Green

shihansmurf said:


> I would with the caveat "as long as the instructor didn't lecture me on the importanct of weight control and diet". I have a serious personal hang up about overweigt martial art instructors that preach on the merits of self control and fitness, but aside from that I am willing to learn from any knowlegdable teacher.
> 
> Mark



I'd go the other way.  Diet and conditioning are important for a fighter, less so for a coach.  I think the coach should stay in relatively good shape if possible as it makes doing the job of coaching a lot easier.  But any coach that said that diet and conditioning didn't play a factor would, IMO, be a bit of a idiot.

Obviously this is much more important when training competitors, but for everyone.

I also think the idea of being deadly serious about defending yourself against "thugs" is kind of silly when the person involved is far more likely to fall victim to a double bacon cheeseburger then a physical attack, but maybe that's just me.


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## shihansmurf

Andrew Green said:


> I'd go the other way. Diet and conditioning are important for a fighter, less so for a coach. I think the coach should stay in relatively good shape if possible as it makes doing the job of coaching a lot easier. But any coach that said that diet and conditioning didn't play a factor would, IMO, be a bit of a idiot.
> 
> Obviously this is much more important when training competitors, but for everyone.
> 
> I also think the idea of being deadly serious about defending yourself against "thugs" is kind of silly when the person involved is far more likely to fall victim to a double bacon cheeseburger then a physical attack, but maybe that's just me.


 
I agree that diet and conditioning is more important to the fighter than the coach, I just have a low tolerance for the do as I say and not as I do mentality. I keep myself in pretty good condition, so when I tell my students that eating right and conditioning are important it is obvious that I practice what I preach.I don't expect more of them than I am willing to do myself.

We expect an instructor to demonstrate that their art's techniques are effective, I think that the training philosophy should be under the same scrutiny.

Mark

I love that last paragraph in your post.


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## Chat Noir

I guess I'll be the politically incorrect fall gal here and say "no, I wouldn't." My JKD teacher is in shape physically and can do incredible things because he keeps fit.  I think it's important to lead by example and it was one of the things that Bruce stressed.  He himself had disdain for teachers who themselves couldn't keep up with the exercises or do them themselves, but had no issues telling their students what they should do.  So my JKD teacher is fit, my Wing Chun teacher is fit and my Judo teacher is fit.  If they weren't, I think I'd keep looking, shallow as that may make me. 


Laura


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## dynamitedragon

Martial arts, say JKD training is not just about fighting. It encompases physical, mental and emotional polishing, which needs a lot of self-discipline. Being out of shape, sometimes, is the result of lack of self-discipline. A good instructor, aside from being skilled and tactician, has a high degree of self-discipline. He does what he preach; He is a model to his students.


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## Thesemindz

Yah, and if he gets older and weaker, or his lifestyle changes and he puts on weight, or if he was _once _in shape but isn't anymore, or if _he was never athletic enough to be compared to Bruce Lee to begin with_, then he obviously has nothing to offer anyone and training with him, hell, spending time in the same room with him, is a waste of my time, energy, and limited resources, and I think we should probably just Logan's Run his ***.

After all, I'm a godlike Adonis who never makes a mistake, is in perfect physical shape and always will be, and was born the parent of two Olympic Gymnasts with the natural athletic ability of a gazelle.

Why would I lower myself to training with someone who isn't as perfect a physical specimen as I? What use in this world could I possibly have for that person?

Fat son of a ***** probably choking on a cheeseburger right now.


-Rob


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## shihansmurf

Thesemindz said:


> Yah, and if he gets older and weaker, or his lifestyle changes and he puts on weight, or if he was _once _in shape but isn't anymore, or if _he was never athletic enough to be compared to Bruce Lee to begin with_, then he obviously has nothing to offer anyone and training with him, hell, spending time in the same room with him, is a waste of my time, energy, and limited resources, and I think we should probably just Logan's Run his ***.
> 
> After all, I'm a godlike Adonis who never makes a mistake, is in perfect physical shape and always will be, and was born the parent of two Olympic Gymnasts with the natural athletic ability of a gazelle.
> 
> Why would I lower myself to training with someone who isn't as perfect a physical specimen as I? What use in this world could I possibly have for that person?
> 
> Fat son of a ***** probably choking on a cheeseburger right now.
> 
> 
> -Rob


 
I don't think that a person has to be in perfect physical condition in order to be an instructor or to have valuable knowledge to impart, however, the moment that an overweight and out of shape teacher beging to preach and lecture their students on condition, diet, and exercise, then they are being hypocrits. I know that expecting instructors who preach about self-discipline, self-control, and the benifits of conditioning to actually engage in those behaviors is an unpopular position around these parts but I hold that position.

Now if that instructor were to just focus on teaching the technical aspect of the art and leave the other parts alone with me, I wouldn't have a word to say against them. It is the hypocacy of it that bug me.

Just my view
Mark


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## Thesemindz

shihansmurf said:


> I don't think that a person has to be in perfect physical condition in order to be an instructor or to have valuable knowledge to impart, however, the moment that an overweight and out of shape teacher beging to preach and lecture their students on condition, diet, and exercise, then they are being hypocrits. I know that expecting instructors who preach about self-discipline, self-control, and the benifits of conditioning to actually engage in those behaviors is an unpopular position around these parts but I hold that position.
> 
> Now if that instructor were to just focus on teaching the technical aspect of the art and leave the other parts alone with me, I wouldn't have a word to say against them. It is the hypocacy of it that bug me.
> 
> Just my view
> Mark


 
I respect and appreciate your expectation of fitness and integrity in martial arts instructors. I don't think there's anything old fashioned about self control. I think it's something each of us must confront every moment of our lives.

And I believe that every instructor should be focused on the technical aspects of their art. Technique is what makes us professionals.

But regardless of an instructor's size, I can not see _any_ good or responsible instructor downplaying or denegrating the importance of diet and exercise in overall health. While I generally disapprove of the phrase, I think where diet and exercise in general are concerned, "the debate is over."

I would not ask my doctor to justify his eating habits before operating on my heart. I am not going to a martial arts instructor for his benefit. I am going because he has something to offer _me. _So long as that continued to be the case, I would be willing to train under an overweight instructor. Because it would still benefit _me. _And I am not in the habit of discounting a person's knowledge or skill based on their own unique vices and quibbles.

Hypocrites? No. I probably wouldn't go out of my way to train with them. Because I try to associate with decent people. But I don't expect fat people to be stupid either. I'm fat. And if anyone asked me how to get thin, I'd tell them diet and exercise and only that. What else could I possibly say with any integrity? Lay on the floor and drink chocolate?

I don't care if a person is fat, or thin, or male, or female, or black, or white. I don't care if they practice MMA or TKD. I care if they have something useful to share. I care if they are capable of sharing it in a constructive manner. I care if they shower on a regular basis.

I don't care if they had Wendy's once or twice yesterday.


-Rob


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## Daniel Sullivan

One of my favorite teachers is a lady who struggles with weight.  She no longer teaches at our school but we keep in contact because her input is extremely valuable to me.  

I learned a long time ago that the instructor's level of conditioning is less important than their ability to instruct.  I would  only consider it an obstacle if they were unable to demonstrate the techniques.  Even then, however, there are work-arounds.  An instructor with a knee injury may not be able to demonstrate kicks but can certainly bring a senior student or assistant instructor to the front to do the kick and explain what is happening.

A good teacher finds a way to teach good.

Daniel


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## ap Oweyn

Just because someone's a hypocrite, doesn't mean they're wrong.

A guy can tell me that donuts are bad for me, even as he's cramming one in his gob.

And guess what:

Donuts are still bad for me.  The value of the information imparted hasn't changed.

Would I rather have a teacher who was fit?  Yeah.  Teachers who lead by example are modeling behaviour, which is essentially another form of teaching.  But I wouldn't _stop listening_ to a teacher who was heavyset.


Stuart


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## shihansmurf

As I stated, I hold an unpopular position.  Yet I still hold to it. Martial arts are a physical endevor. I've struggled with my weight. I don't, however, instruct my students to condition and do cardio, and watch their diets, while I don't. I wouldn't train under an instructor that engaged in that sort of hypocritical behavior.

When my students are doing push ups, so am I.

When they are running laps, so am I.

When they are lifting weights, so am I.

When I am advising them to watch their diets, that is what I am doing.

I don't expect perfection in the people that I learn from, just integrity. I've been at this long enough that I'm choosey about who I call teacher and while other people may not see things the way that I do, and I fully respect that, I've reached the point that the days of "Do as I say, not as I do", from my teachers is not acceptable to me. I expect them to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

Mark


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## Gruenewald

My wrestling coach through high school was a short, stalky, balding man. Like, he was almost literally round and he had a bad back and he couldn't see five feet without his glasses on. But damn, he knew SO much. He's far and away one of the most well-respected coaches in all of Canada. Great man, great teacher. He's coached so many National Championship gold medalists and junior olympic medalists that it's unbelievable.


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## eastnashvillemartialarts

Keep in mind that Bruce Lee died young.
He wouldn't have been able to keep up his training routine for long.

That said, Instructors should be an example to students.
They should be able to demonstrate techniques and not be out of breath after 30 seconds.

They DONT however have to look like body builders and they don't have to be able to beat you up to be able to teach you something.


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## Gruenewald

eastnashvillemartialarts said:


> Keep in mind that Bruce Lee died young.
> He wouldn't have been able to keep up his training routine for long.
> 
> That said, Instructors should be an example to students.
> They should be able to demonstrate techniques and not be out of breath after 30 seconds.
> 
> They DONT however have to look like body builders and they don't have to be able to beat you up to be able to teach you something.


I believe that without the intense stress of being a movie star (combined with other issues) later in his life, he may very well have been able to maintain his work regiment. Introduction of drugs didn't help either. I still admire you, Bruce!


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## MANOS: THE HANDS OF FATE

I was introduced to Wing Chun by a gentleman who was out on permanent disability and had to walk with a cane.  He often had to sit down and was a notorious chain smoker. 

After he showed me what he was capable of--I made him promise me that if he were ever to strike me in anger that he was to do so with his cane and NOT his hands.   IMO the cane was more forgiving.  

I wish I were still training with him today.


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## trexeden@yahoo.com

[FONT=&quot]It is a challenge.  Ive interviewed some pretty high up JKD instructors.  You can check out my interviews with them at http://www.JKDnewsletter.com.[/FONT]


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## Hapkidoman

There are so many different body types, many people can be very deceptive, they might look over weight and out of shape, but I have learned that you are making a big mistake if you underestimate anyone. I have had my but kicked by guys that I did not give much of a chance to, and conversly I have seen guy's that look to be very fit, not be very fast or have good timing. Bottom line is never judge a book by it's cover.


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## The Ninja

Look below


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## The Ninja

In my life ive faced people that were very skilled in kung fu, ninjutsu, and even jkd ...and they were fat. 

 This is 1 rule everyone that does any  type of martial arts should know

*when facing any 1 u should never under estimate your opponent nor your teacher, sensei, or wut ever u call him/her.*
 
just like others ive seen people that were twice my size have skill, speed, and power.im fat but others know that u shoudnt think that is my weak point. Being fat sometimes cant be helped.   

So yes, i would go under a fat teacher because he will more than likely go beyond what u expect of him.


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## Twin Fist

great teacher

in great shape

great fighter


now pick any 2, cuz more than likely? you will never see all 3 in the same person


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## simplicity

Never say never brother...  ;-)


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## Daniel Sullivan

The Ninja said:


> In my life ive faced people that were very skilled in kung fu, ninjutsu, and even jkd ...and they were fat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is 1 rule everyone that does any type of martial arts should know
> *when facing any 1 u should never under estimate your opponent nor your teacher, sensei, or wut ever u call him/her.*
> just like others ive seen people that were twice my size have skill, speed, and power.im fat but others know that u shoudnt think that is my weak point. Being fat sometimes cant be helped.


But usually, it *can* be helped. the cause of weight gain is not a mystery and weight loss/prevention of weight gain is not rocket science.  Nor do the vast majority of overweight people overweight due to medical conditions. 

Most 'suffer' from modern daily life, which has become increasingly sedentary as tasks which were once manual have become automated or can be performed while seated. Case in point; the basic act of answering the phone. When I was a kid, there was a phone upstairs and a phone downstairs. Each had a handset that was hardwired to the base. If the phone rang and I wasn't in the same room, I had to get up and walk if I wanted to answer it. Now, the cordless or a cell phone is handy in all homes. With the decline of print media, there are many who get their news from the web. That eliminates getting up and going to get the paper from either the doorstep or the box. 

Modern society changed very rapidly over the past thirty years, and so to has the ratio of availablilty of healthy foods vs. unhealthy foods. When I was growing up, you simply had to not over-do it and stay away from obvious junk food. Now, the junk is pervasive, and often masquerading as foods that are thought of as healthy. 

All of this makes watching one's weight trickier than it was thirty years ago.

Thus, one may be 'fat' without being a glutton, lazy, or any of the other stereotypes that I have seen leveled against overweight people.

The the question of what is meant by "fat" needs to be addressed; there is a huge difference between being twenty pounds overweight and being sixty pounds overweight. Or one hundred or more pound overweight.



The Ninja said:


> So yes, i would go under a fat teacher because he will more than likely go beyond what u expect of him.


Since I don't base an instructor's ability to teach on what they look like, no they won't go beyond what I expect of them based on their appearance; I have no expectations based upon appearance. Short, tall, thin, fat, man, woman, I don't care. 

I select my instructors based mainly on three things:

*1.* their ability to reasonably *do* what they are teaching correctly

If you are teaching taekwondo or Shotokan and cannot do a basic turning kick correctly, that is a problem. If the instructor has an effective way of addressing that problem, it can be overcome... but if you have allowed yourself to get to a point where you cannot do one of the most basic techniques of your art *correctly*, then you should take some time away from teaching and address your basic training issues. Because chances are, it isn't your weight that is preventing you from correctly performing the kick.

I realize that a guy who's lost limbs due to injury or has either severe arthritis or has suffered some debilitating injury may not be able to do such a technique at all and will need to overcome that challenge in some way. That is not what I am talking about.

Even if you cannot kick at head level any longer, you should be able to execute the basics of the kick correctly.

*2.* their ability to instruct 
The ability to teach others is unrelated to one's physical condition, and barring the inability to demonstrate foundational techniques (which can be overcome), conditioning is unrelated to teaching ability. Some of the finest technicians cannot effectively impart their skills to a beginning student. It could be a lack of patience. It could be an inability to effectively communicate. Or an inability to translate what they do into a lesson.

*3.* their teaching style. 
This is more subjective, as a teaching style may be very effective for one type of student and a disaster for another. So you could have one and two in place, but number three is whether or not the instructor is right for *you*.


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## WCman1976

I watched a video of one of Bruce Lee's earliest students, Jesse Glover. He isn't going to be on the cover of any muscle magazines anytime soon, but the man looked like he could handle himself. Could he last long in an MMA fight? No. Could he do some serious damage to an attacker on the street, where fights are usually over very fast? No doubt.


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## Zenjael

It depends. I remember once seeing a man so wide doing a bo-staff form at a competition, and thinking to myself how absurd he looked. However, when he did his kata, I still to this day do not think I have seen such acrobatics, at least with a bow. A roommate I have, probably most would say is overweight. But if you actually see his body, as I unfortunately have perchance, it's about half muscle, and half fat.

Out of shape is not the same thing as fat. I have a teacher, now retired, who developed a thyroid and diabetic problem later and life. He still carries stretch marks on his arms from when he used to go to the gym for hours everyday and train. Now he has them around his stomach.

Likewise, the individual I trained under for Moo Duk Kwan, was of olympic level. He was a terrible teacher. I recall him leaving for 12 months to learn Jiddokwan so he would better be able to spar as he grew older.

some people have phenomenal ability, but weak body, and weaker teaching methods.

I don't discount people necessarily because of their body skill, but I sure as heck will if their ability is weak, and insight shallow.


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## Bill Mattocks

Zenjael said:


> I don't discount people necessarily because of their body skill, but I sure as heck will if their ability is weak, and insight shallow.



Ironic.


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## Zenjael

Judging depths in others is more akin to looking at a surface. In the end, what you glean from the exchange should further you, regardless if it was positive or negative.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Gruenewald said:


> I believe that without the intense stress of being a movie star (combined with other issues) later in his life, he may very well have been able to maintain his work regiment. Introduction of drugs didn't help either. I still admire you, Bruce!


Didn't he also have some kind of back injury?  

I know that there are elements of my own workouts that I have had to either modify or eliminate due to age and injury.  Bruce was about 33 when he died.  I didn't notice age in my workouts until I was over forty.  My intensity is still the same, but my selection of exercises has changed.  I no longer do much with weights; pushups and crunches are my only 'strength building' exercises.  I do consistently practice my TKD pumse and I practice a *lot *of kendo and kenjutsu. 

I suspect that Bruce would have been able to maintain much of his regime into his late thirties or early forties without having to change too much of it, and probably would have been able to maintain the intensity of his workout indefinitely (look at Jhoon Rhee and his 101 push ups in less than sixty seconds at the age of 80).

And I still admire Bruce too.


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## Zenjael

I recall bruce lee once saying he approved of pushing and pushing oneself, even if it killed them young. I like to think that when he did die, because of his philosophy, he lived, and died as he taught and spoke. It's part of why I respect him as a Martial Artist.


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## Bill Mattocks

Zenjael said:


> I recall bruce lee once saying he approved of pushing and pushing oneself, even if it killed them young. I like to think that when he did die, because of his philosophy, he lived, and died as he taught and spoke. It's part of why I respect him as a Martial Artist.



I am certain he would be glad to know you respect him.


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## Bill Shaw

Might make a difference if you're talking about a "Once Fit & now older & overweight" ... or "Never Fit."

Anyone remember TV's Kunf-Fu Series? ... Master Po was a bit Fat, Old, and BLIND!  Yet none of that negated the wisdom he had to share..

Just a thought to share...


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## Zenjael

Well... I suspect that if someone was truly fit as a martial artist, even through bodily deterioration, they are still able to do quite a bit.

Ionno bout you, but im 22 and 5'5". Im only getting shorter at this point. I look forward to being 70, or 60, and looking like a very small, frail old man. Exactly as my grandfather does today- but it would bely the nearly 7 decades of experience I will have had.


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## grumpywolfman

Knowledge and teaching ability would be the most important to me. But I suppose the first questions that would cross my mind would be: can he prove his lineage, and *does he know how to throw his weight into his punch?*


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## monk64

Bill Shaw said:


> Might make a difference if you're talking about a "Once Fit & now older & overweight" ... or "Never Fit."
> 
> Anyone remember TV's Kunf-Fu Series? ... Master Po was a bit Fat, Old, and BLIND!  Yet none of that negated the wisdom he had to share..



Ha!  That's a funny observation, though of course it's fiction.  But your first comment is spot on.

Can a 50% body fat, out-of-shape guy really do JKD well?  I doubt it.  I think being obese prevents you from really being a good martial artist.  I suppose sumo wrestling is the counter-example but for most MA, you need a reasonable level of fitness.

I can think of a number of great masters who are alive and in their 70s or 80s.  One I know just had a hip replacement.  I don't think he can do all of the moves in his art any more - but he still has the eye, wisdom, and experience to teach.  And of course, at one time he certainly could, which is the real key.


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## Haakon

It's not JKD, but have you seen Jeff Speakman lately? Far from his "Perfect Weapon" physique, much closer to the 'old fat guy' build today, would you refuse to train with him? If I lived in Las Vegas I'd have no problem learning from him.


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## James Kovacich

Im thinking you mistook someone else for Jeff. He trains hard and his weight gain is normal which comes with age. 

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


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## Daniel Sullivan

Haakon said:


> It's not JKD, but have you seen Jeff Speakman lately? Far from his "Perfect Weapon" physique, much closer to the 'old fat guy' build today, would you refuse to train with him? If I lived in Las Vegas I'd have no problem learning from him.


While I like the sentiment, I've seen pictures of him and while he's not in the same shape he was (who is?) he doesn't look particularly old or fat, especially considering that he's 54.  Recent pictures I've seen of him indicate that he is no fatter than Liam Neeson was at the same age.  I haven't seen any shirtless shots, so couldn't tell you if he's maintained a fairly ripped physique, but he certainly didn't look fat or out of shape to me.


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## Haakon

Maybe he's lost weight in the last few years, but the videos I saw of him from around 2005-2007 did not show him in great shape, even for being close to 50 - neither am I, I certainly can't say "look at me, everyone should be in this shape" (which is more round than ripped these days).


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## StreetReady

I think it all really depends. Isn't JKD just a concept and not an actual style? If he's teaching concepts, go for it. He might be fat, but maybe he knows fighting techniques that work for a fat guy and can execute like a pro. 

Then again, I'm not a JKD expert, so please excuse me if I'm wrong.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Haakon said:


> Maybe he's lost weight in the last few years, but the videos I saw of him from around 2005-2007 did not show him in great shape, even for being close to 50 - neither am I, I certainly can't say "look at me, everyone should be in this shape" (which is more round than ripped these days).


He definitely looks a bit more portly than pictures that I have seen, but given his age and credentials, it wouldn't put me off.


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