# Different style of Chi-Sao techniques...



## geezer (Apr 19, 2011)

Here's a clip of EWTO headman Keith Kernspecht similar to one I posted a while back on another thread. In this clip, he makes extensive use of a vicious downward chopping movement not seen so frequently in other branches of WC. Any thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WliKuRuviWA&feature=related


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## yak sao (Apr 19, 2011)

I've noticed that about him...he uses that an awful lot.
I 've also noticed he's so relaxed, almost to a fault.
Si-Fu talks about how WT practitioners should have a lazy mindset and use as little effort as possible.
Could it be he's using the concept of what Si-Fu calls "lut sau" (spelling?), the idea of just letting the arm drop without adding anything to it, like a dead weight? Because KK is a tall man this may be something that presents itself to him quite often.


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## Svemocn1vidar (Apr 20, 2011)

Agreed there Yak Sao. I've always seen fluidity by KK,to the point one belives he's overeacting.His techniques are done with little effort,that's true. It seems to me that he's sometimes leaning his body to the sides (without need to do so),i don't know why to be honest. As for the downward choping movements,they seem quite fierce,but he's also very tall.


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## hunt1 (Apr 20, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6O8T4RLZG8&feature=player_ 
 Think this one gives a better idea and you can see where Klaus Brand mentioned in another thread gets his idea's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6O8T4RLZG8&feature=player


 My favorite.


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## wtxs (Apr 20, 2011)

I see the flow, chopping/striking techniques of escrima/kali ... seems effortless due to the flow and smooth follow through, generate lots of power with minimum effort, sort of like fa-ging.


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## geezer (Apr 20, 2011)

wtxs said:


> I see the flow, chopping/striking techniques of escrima/kali ... seems effortless due to the flow and smooth follow through, generate lots of power with minimum effort, sort of like fa-ging.


 
Yes, it appears very relaxed and powerful, and not at all rigid and "karate-like". That downward "chop" appears a couple of times in the WT version of the Biu Tze form, but like you, _WTXS_, I thought of Excrima when I saw it in use. I have previously practiced hitting various targets with this kind of strike and it is very strong. Now if I just had access to some of those EWTO guys to train up my Chi-Sau...


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## chinaboxer (Apr 20, 2011)

i don't know anything about this individual, so my opinion is only from what i see from the video.

this is what you get when you are a tall guy doing wing chun on a smaller person, but this movement would not work the other way around. 

when you have all the physical advantages and your training partner stands there for you, doesn't respond, doesn't react, doesn't apply pressure, then the taller chunner can do anything he wants. he could slap the smaller guy's head like a bongo drum but is that wing chun?


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## geezer (Apr 21, 2011)

chinaboxer said:


> ... he could slap the smaller guy's head like a bongo drum *but is that wing chun?*



 Is it WC? Heck if I know, but if it's got a beat and you can dance to it... well OK by me! LOL

Now about the clip, yes it seems to be a staged demo and the shorter man, Victor Gutierrez seemed pretty compliant, but he's not exactly smaller or weaker. Check out some of his videos. The guy's a beast. Jin, again you may ask "is that WC?" I can't say but I wouldn't want him to practice on me! See for yourself:







Oh, and about the chopping movement from the earlier clip. From your answer I take it that you don't use it?


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 21, 2011)

geezer said:


> Is it WC? Heck if I know, but if it's got a beat and you can dance to it... well OK by me! LOL. . . . . . Oh, and about the chopping movement from the earlier clip. From your answer I take it that you don't use it?


 
Initially, he is doing chi sau, with rolling hands.  And then he breaks off and strikes.  The strike may seem unorthodox, but I have seen it done like that before.  And it does come from the Yip Man lineage.  My first sifu (a student of Moy Yat and Duncan Leung) used that same motion from time to time.  And taught it on occasion, caling it fan sau or turning over hands.  As a side note, he was not a tall person either, but still used the chop.  

Remember, Wing Chun is a concept based art, so it allows you to apply techniques that are particular to you (expressing it your way?), as long as you stay within the guidelines of the principles, theories, and concepts of the art.  And I believe Kernspecht Sifu is doing just that, but expressing it his way.


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## wtxs (Apr 21, 2011)

geezer said:


> Is it WC? Heck if I know, but if it's got a beat and you can dance to it... well OK by me! LOL
> 
> Now about the clip, yes it seems to be a staged demo and the shorter man, Victor Gutierrez seemed pretty compliant, but he's not exactly smaller or weaker. Check out some of his videos. The guy's a beast. Jin, again you may ask "is that WC?" I can't say but I wouldn't want him to practice on me! See for yourself:
> 
> ...




The chopping/slashing/striking movement/motion is hidden in plain sight in one of the three forms ... YOU GO FIND NNNNOOW!:whip:


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## hunt1 (Apr 21, 2011)

Whoa! Hold on there WT fan-boy Kool-aid drinkers. Take off the rose colored glasses and try to be objective.

 It is painfully easy to be relaxed against a non resiting student. Whole other thing against someone really trying to hit you. Drawing real world conclusions from teacher students demo's is not only dangerous but foolish.

 You see power in those strikes. How? How do you determine from looking at this video if his strikes have any real power behind them? Strikes may look nice as his student crumples before his almightyness but do you really think Gutierrez would crumble like this if he was really fighting KK?

 Strikes are all arm no body usage . Nothing like fajing. Fast arm movement often leads to strikes detached from the body. Fajing depends on body use.


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## geezer (Apr 21, 2011)

wtxs said:


> The chopping/slashing/striking movement/motion is hidden in plain sight in one of the three forms ... YOU GO FIND NNNNOOW!:whip:


 
Well, as I said above, the most obvious place you see this movement is in Biu Tze. For example, following the sideways upward whisking arms (sometimes called fak-sau, sometimes man-sau, etc.) you drop your elbow and forearm in this manner, and then proceed into the three turning kau-sau movements. It appears again in the next Biu Tze segment that begins with the three biu-tze-sau strikes, right after the fak-sau as you bring your arm back to center. It's *not* a "hidden technique" by any stretch. It's just uncommon to see it used in flurries the way KK applies them. 

As far as Hunter's comment about power or the lack thereof, all I can say is that when I strike the wall bag with this, the whole wall shakes. And it's a brick wall. I swing my arm in a very relaxed way using elbow and body force, kind of like the turning fak-sau in Chum Kiu, except downward, sinking my weight. Of course my execution is influenced by the time I spent studying Escrima under Rene Latosa. At any rate, it seems to me that it is a very strong strike.


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## Eric_H (Apr 21, 2011)

Can a chop like that be used as an effective weapon? Sure!

Is KK demonstrating an effective use of it? Not for my money.

If his student checked KK's center at all 99% of what he did wouldn't be possible. Then again its a flashy demo meant to look cool/impress the unwashed masses, not necessarily a good demo of application.


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## wtxs (Apr 21, 2011)

geezer said:


> Well, as I said above, the most obvious place you see this movement is in Biu Tze. For example, following the sideways upward whisking arms (sometimes called fak-sau, sometimes man-sau, etc.) you drop your elbow and forearm in this manner, and then proceed into the three turning kau-sau movements. It appears again in the next Biu Tze segment that begins with the three biu-tze-sau strikes, right after the fak-sau as you bring your arm back to center. *It's not a "hidden technique" by any stretch.* It's just uncommon to see it used in flurries the way KK applies them.
> 
> As far as Hunter's comment about power or the lack thereof, all I can say is that when I strike the wall bag with this, the whole wall shakes. And it's a brick wall. I swing my arm in a very relaxed way using elbow and body force, kind of like the turning fak-sau in Chum Kiu, except downward, sinking my weight. Of course my execution is influenced by the time I spent studying Escrima under Rene Latosa. At any rate, it seems to me that it is a very strong strike.



You're on the ball Geezer, however, I've wrote "hidden in *plain sight*" (little humor there) , *NOT* hidden ... it can't be hidden if it's in plain sight. 

It's unfortunate that there are a few out there view some of the WC techniques in its simplest ... one dimensional, and never ventures pass the second or the third. :idunno:


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 21, 2011)

geezer said:


> . . . . . It appears again in the next Biu Tze segment that begins with the three biu-tze-sau strikes, right after the fak-sau as you bring your arm back to center. It's *not* a "hidden technique" by any stretch. It's just uncommon to see it used in flurries the way KK applies them.


 
We also use the movement as a way to regain center (after having lost it).  But the motion can be use as a strike, and it is very powerful.  More so than it seems.




geezer said:


> As far as Hunter's comment about power or the lack thereof, all I can say is that when I strike the wall bag with this, the whole wall shakes. And it's a brick wall. I swing my arm in a very relaxed way using elbow and body force, kind of like the turning fak-sau in Chum Kiu, except downward, sinking my weight. Of course my execution is influenced by the time I spent studying Escrima under Rene Latosa. At any rate, it seems to me that it is a very strong strike.


 
I have to agree with Geezer, it is more powerful than anyone realizes, if done correctly.  When the strike is executed, it comes down like dead weight force, crashing down breaking or hurting anything it comes in contact with.  And people have rarely seen it because it is considered an emergency or last ditch effort in the way of striking.


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 21, 2011)

Watch the link below. The movement Geezer points to is well executed in the Biu Jee form at 1:07 seconds and 1:18 seconds. Then again (not so well executed) at 1:32 seconds and again at 1:36 seconds. As stated, it doesn't look like it has a lot of power, but it is more powerful than it looks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NW1_Bmbmkg&feature=related


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## mook jong man (Apr 21, 2011)

We use that technique against an attempted double throat grab , as the hands come in to grab your throat you just raise your guard to deflect and then step in and bring your hands crashing down into both sides of his neck ..... lethal stuff.


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## mook jong man (Apr 21, 2011)

The power of that strike comes from relaxation , as others have said it is just like a 'dead weight.
It does not need any other movement of the body , just the arm dropping.

My Sifu sometimes would demonstrate this relaxed power by getting us to hold our arms out and he would drop his arm down on ours and it would feel like a ton of bricks hitting your arm.
All of the Wing Chun strikes and deflections should have this quality.

If you want to get more esoteric it is the ability to mentally transfer your body weight into the attacking limb.


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