# Firearms and martial arts



## Kizaru (Oct 13, 2004)

I wanted to start a thread to see how people incorporate firearms into their training.  If not, why not? If so, how?

For example, do you practice rifle/pistol disarms?
Do you practice shooting?
Do you practice drawing the weapon from a concealed location while executing a "kata"?
Do you practice searching your opponent for a concealed weapon when executing a "kata"?
Do you practice "stopping the draw"?
Do you practice ukemi (rolling, leaping, falling) with rifle/pistol?
Do you have firearms safety and awareness classes at your school/group?
Do you work on anything I've failed to mention?

Gassho.:asian:


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## Phil Elmore (Oct 13, 2004)

Mastery of firearms _is_ a martial art.  In fact, in modern society, it is an essential component of learning self-defense.

*LinK:  Guns, "Gun Control," and "Martial" Artists*


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## MA-Caver (Oct 13, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> I wanted to start a thread to see how people incorporate firearms into their training.  If not, why not? If so, how?
> 
> For example, do you practice rifle/pistol disarms?
> Do you practice shooting?
> ...



If you use firearms at all, then all of the above "Do you's..." definitely (or at least should) apply...especially to MA-ists. 
I definitely agree with Phil on this one...


			
				Sharp Phil said:
			
		

> Mastery of firearms is a  martial art. In fact, in modern society, it is an essential component of learning self-defense.


We have a much higher probablity now-a-days of meeting an assailant who is armed with a gun than anything else. Knives are a close second (if not the #1). Having firearm awareness and dis-arming training would be considered (one of) an essential part of the whole of our MA training by whatever art we choose.
Knowing how to (and be able to be willing to) use them is even better all around for us. In fact I'd recommend it for any serious SD classes. 

 :asian:


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## althaur (Oct 13, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> For example, do you practice rifle/pistol disarms?
> Do you practice shooting?
> Do you practice drawing the weapon from a concealed location while executing a "kata"?
> Do you practice searching your opponent for a concealed weapon when executing a "kata"?
> ...


Dale does some awesome work with most of these in his dojo. I have been to a number of his handgun/long gun retention and take-away seminars. They are quite amazing. He also shows how the mechanics of drawing a sidearm are not much different than drawing other weapons(use the hips, not just the arms). This leads into how to draw the weapon in a way that the opponent or observers can't see or feel the draw. 

The stuff he has shown me is really practical and allows me to pass it on to my soldiers. Most of them have the same "WTF" look in their eyes that I did the first time I saw/felt this stuff.


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## AaronLucia (Oct 13, 2004)

Unfortunately, in both my class we really haven't done too much firearm training, although i'm really looking forward to it.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 13, 2004)

Currently, at our dojo we work on Stopping the draw and disarm/retention techniques.

 I have heard that a full firearms course is being worked on as well, but I have not seen any of it yet.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 13, 2004)

I believe my instructor's father was shot to death years ago (while attempting to stop a car jacking, I might add). He doesn't seem to put any special emphasis on using or defending against guns. Knives are a different matter, though.


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## bignick (Oct 13, 2004)

just last night we worked on preventing someone from drawing...and how to still draw if someone was trying to either take the firearm or prevent it from being drawn...my judo/jujutsu instructor is a sheriff's deputy and former marine...so we cover quite a bit of what you've discussed...the only two i've never seen practiced are the drawing from a concealed location and the ukemi with a firearm


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## sojobow (Oct 14, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Currently, at our dojo we work on Stopping the draw and disarm/retention techniques.
> 
> I have heard that a full firearms course is being worked on as well, but I have not seen any of it yet.


Some schools will not teach these techniques until the student has, at least, exhibited the proficiency of a mid-belt level.  Example, if the student hasn't reached the 4th belt level out of six or seven belt-levels, the student isn't really good enough in basics to be taught techniques that, if misapplied in the least, will cause your own death.

One good thing though, we can all cross-train in a public firearms class if we  are'ren in a hurry to learn


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## Don Roley (Oct 15, 2004)

I remember a few years after I had started martial arts in another style, that ninjutsu started taking off and being noticed. I was attracted to it for the description of not being centered on sports competition, and it's concentration on smooth, natural techniques. I was also interested in WWII combatives like those taught by Rex Applegate for primarily the same reason. In addition, Applegate had one of the best, combat proven uses of the pistol around ingrained into the system.

So I joined what was then known as the Shadows of Iga and got their newletter "Ninja Realm". Imagine my surprise when the first mention of actually _how_ to use a pistol were based on Practical Pistol Competition (PPC) and had very little to do with what I saw Applegate doing. Other articles and such followed, all centered around what we should do in combat based on what worked best in competitive sports.

I nearly stopped interest in Bujinkan altogether over it. PPC was a sport that was by that time almost totally removed from real combat. The stances that it used were stiff and against the principles that I thought ninpo should have. They worked great against targets, but in a real fight......

So I was very, very glad when Hatsumi came out with his book on Knife and Pistol Fighting. This was what I thought ninpo should be. The techniques are very close to what Applegate did. It was not a case of, "if we don't know how to do XXX let us borrow it from another art."

I was wondering if there was still a lot of that type of thing going on. I personally find that the stuff in the tapes by "Jim Grover" closer to the philosophy and movements of Hatsumi than anything that wins trophies. Massad Ayoob also is pretty darn compatable with what we do as well.

What other kind of sources are there on Hatsumi using a pistol or rifle? I am talking about things like tai kai tapes, etc.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 15, 2004)

I hear the demonstration of firearms use by Brin Morgan and Lubos Pokorny at the Taikai in Japan this spring was something in a league of its own...:enfo::cheers:


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## Don Roley (Oct 16, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I hear the demonstration of firearms use by Brin Morgan and Lubos Pokorny at the Taikai in Japan this spring was something in a league of its own...



Well, I have seen the DVD and I do not recall anything from them that stands out. Mind you, I was mainly looking at Hatsumi and I do not think they would be concerned if I say that no one else on the DVD stood out or compared with him.

But in the latest issue of _Hiden_ magazine Pokorny gave an interview and stated that when teaching firearms the most important thing is to keep and convey the _feeling_ of what Hatsumi was doing. That made my opinion of him go up several notches. There are far too many people who try to take something from other arts and make the Bujinkan fit it rather than the other way around.


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## Shogun (Oct 16, 2004)

At my main school (which I barely get to go to), we do. The instructor is a law student so we do a lot of gun. Plus, I am a Sheriff explorer so I get a good dose of Gunplay from that.


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## Don Roley (Dec 15, 2004)

I think that most Bujinkan members would enjoy reading the book "Practical Shooting- Beyond Fundementals" by Brian Enos. Much of the technical section is geared toward competition shooting and not very applicable to what we do. But the training mindset, philosophy, etc are just great eye opening chapters.

If you have read and liked "The Unfettered Mind" by Takuan and use a gun, then you need to get this book.


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## Drac (Dec 15, 2004)

We practice weapon disarms from all angles and weapon retention...All cops, military personnel and armed security should pratice these especially the weapon retention..


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## kenanderson (Dec 15, 2004)

The instructor I train with also goes over all sorts of firearms tactics and retention strategies. He's recently been teaching these tactics in the context of multiple attackers (unarmed), then gradually uping the stacks and having them armed with different types of weapons, including firearms. The most important thing I've taken from this has been the be as aware as possible, even under the most dire of circumstances (like having 3 people come at you with knives, clubs, and a firearm). Last year my instructor was shot at somewhere in Dallas, and the only thing, he says, that prevented him from taking a hit was his awareness. 

This is great training, and relates very well to my job as a highway patrolman. These ideas that he teaches are usually not even thought about in our regular law enforcement training. In fact only the bare mininum of standards is required and taught. 

- Ken Anderson


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## Dale Seago (Dec 15, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> So I joined what was then known as the Shadows of Iga and got their newletter "Ninja Realm". Imagine my surprise when the first mention of actually _how_ to use a pistol were based on Practical Pistol Competition (PPC) and had very little to do with what I saw Applegate doing. Other articles and such followed, all centered around what we should do in combat based on what worked best in competitive sports.
> 
> I nearly stopped interest in Bujinkan altogether over it. PPC was a sport that was by that time almost totally removed from real combat. The stances that it used were stiff and against the principles that I thought ninpo should have. They worked great against targets, but in a real fight......
> 
> So I was very, very glad when Hatsumi came out with his book on Knife and Pistol Fighting. This was what I thought ninpo should be. The techniques are very close to what Applegate did. It was not a case of, "if we don't know how to do XXX let us borrow it from another art."



That reminds me. . .

We currently have a Japanese shihan a couple of hours away in Monterey doing research at the Naval Postgraduate School, and he's come up to train with us a couple of times. We found out that he's interested in firearms and learning to shoot (not much opportunity for that in Japan), so a week or so before Daikomyosai I did a half-day "mini-seminar" on handgun disarming & retention (with almost everyone using real firearms, by the way), followed by spending the rest of the day at a nearby pistol range where one of our black belts who's a police officer was his personal coach.

I wasn't able to do the range session because I had to go on to a security assignment in Berkeley for the rest of the day; but everyone told me later that he was effusive in his enthusiasm about the seminar. One thing he'd said was that in Japan he's often seen people with military and law enforcement backgrounds do stuff with guns, but that what he's seen has always looked "mechanical" (his word). . ."but what Dale-sensei does is all taijutsu!!"

I've heard Hatsumi sensei say that a true martial art doesn't have to fundamentally change just because technology changes: It simply incorporates the new into the existing knowledge base in a way that will allow practitioners to make the most effective use of it. That's the approach I take.

The shihan also did NOT want to leave the range.  :uhyeah: And much to everyone's surprise, even though he's right handed he turns out to be a "natural lefty" with a pistol -- he suspects it's due to spending so much time in hidari ichimonji no kamae.


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## Don Roley (Jan 9, 2005)

kenanderson said:
			
		

> Last year my instructor was shot at somewhere in Dallas, and the only thing, he says, that prevented him from taking a hit was his awareness.



Since you say you are a member of Jigoku Dojo, that means your instructor is Luke Molitor.

So what did "Hotpants" Molitor do to get in that situation? One of the selling points of his school (aside from his experience living in Japan, his high rank in Bujinkan, the trust Hatsumi has put in him on various occasions, etc) is the fact that he has faced certain events that could have ended up with him in the hospital or worse, but instead he got home safe.

Some details about how Hotpants avoided getting shot with his awareness skills might be a usefull lesson for all of us.


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## Don Roley (Mar 10, 2005)

Based on a thread over at a forum run by Sharp Phil I have been thinking about air soft as part of training. 

For me, emptying a magazine through my air soft before I go to work is a common occasion. Even when I lived in the States, I was not willing to use the techniques shown in Hatsumi's book on pistol fighting with anything other than air soft. I worked my way through college teaching people to shoot and know that firing ranges get very, very nervous if the pistol is pointing at the floor and not downrange at all times.

And of course, when dealing with various disarms, counters, etc, the ability to hit someone safely is a valuable feedback tool.

Does anyone else use them? If you are coming to Japan, I reccomend you get some. Heck, get some stuff for me from America and I will exchange them for air softs of your choice from here.


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## r.severe (Mar 11, 2005)

From Dallas Texas the Dallas Ninjutsu Academy offers 12 seminars a year on woodland tactical training and survival classes. These are 3 to 6 hours and held in the North Texas area.
This season we have completed the first two of six with four more to go before the end of April.
These have always been very popular with a wide range of people coming and learning the skills offered, military, law enforcement, firemen, laymen, etc.
At times we have students from New York, Utah, etc. coming to these.
The major strong point is there is NO cost to members of the Dallas Ninjutsu Academy. 
In respects to those 12 woodland tactical classes a year we also have 12 more CQC in-house firearms tactical training classes.  A total of 24 firearms classes a year just focused on firearms and the use of them here at the Dallas Ninjutsu Academy.
This of course doesn&#8217;t fall into the weekly pistol shooting and monthly rifle shooting training members do outside the Academy.
I personally do not see how anyone could train in the arts of Ninjutsu without firearms part of there on-going self-perfection. But again.. this is Texas.
We have some of the most experienced instructors coming in to help with some of the classes. SEALS, Rangers, and other specialist. They are always great classes.
To answer a few of the questions you asked on this post,

1, For example, do you practice rifle/pistol disarms? Yes in our normal basic classes monthly.
2, Do you practice shooting? Yes, in classes and outside classes with pistol and rifle. Little with shotgun.
3, Do you practice drawing the weapon from a concealed location while executing a "kata"? Yes, but we do not look at this as a &#8216;kata&#8217; type of training because we draw from many different positions, in auto, coming out of auto, ground, standing, in water, coming through doorway, on ladder, etc.
4, Do you practice searching your opponent for a concealed weapon when executing a "kata"? Yes.
5, Do you practice "stopping the draw"? Yes.
6, Do you practice ukemi (rolling, leaping, falling) with rifle/pistol? Yes in all classes.
7, Do you have firearms safety and awareness classes at your school/group? Yes in all classes.
8, Do you work on anything I've failed to mention? Yes.
The major point of our outline is to make each and every student skilled with all types of pistols, shotguns and rifles. This means a lot of mixing and drilling the different tools for survival. Also a major point of all students is to understand and know the cleaning, breakdown, maintenance, carry systems, cache, drawing, effects of the bullet and shot of the tool against targets, distance and effects of bullets an shot, hiding tools on body, etc.  

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 11, 2005)

r.severe said:
			
		

> 1, For example, do you practice rifle/pistol disarms? Yes in our normal basic classes monthly.
> 2, Do you practice shooting? Yes, in classes and outside classes with pistol and rifle. Little with shotgun.
> 3, Do you practice drawing the weapon from a concealed location while executing a "kata"? Yes, but we do not look at this as a kata type of training because we draw from many different positions, in auto, coming out of auto, ground, standing, in water, coming through doorway, on ladder, etc.
> 4, Do you practice searching your opponent for a concealed weapon when executing a "kata"? Yes.
> ...


I guess we all find something to compensate with...


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## Cryozombie (Mar 11, 2005)

MOD NOTE:

Please keep the conversation Polite and Respectful.

-Technopunk
-MT Moderator


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## r.severe (Mar 11, 2005)

oh yes.. it is abundantly clear we live in times of abuse and hate amount human beings.
It's not accidental we live in these times.. and have to search out didactic methods so not to be surprised by the on-going evil we live next to.
Mere fantasy games or the XBox is just not enough to protect our living rights.

Looking back I am pleased with the methods and direction I have taken to ensure those living rights and the way the students have been so eager to seek truth with firearms.
It would be funny to NOT have a firearm at my side 24-7.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Cryozombie (Mar 11, 2005)

r.severe said:
			
		

> oh yes.. it is abundantly clear we live in times of abuse and hate amount human beings.
> It's not accidental we live in these times.. and have to search out didactic methods so not to be surprised by the on-going evil we live next to.
> Mere fantasy games or the XBox is just not enough to protect our living rights.
> 
> ralph severe, kamiyama


Ralph, 

Im sorry, but I dont understand a word of that post.  Can you dumb it down for me please?


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## Don Roley (Mar 11, 2005)

I am glad to see that I am not the only one that can't figure what the hell Ralph was trying to say in his last post. It sounds rather like something out of a bad fortune cookie to me.

It sounds like we are going to go off on a real weird tangent here involving Severe's particular philosophy of life instead of how to use firearms in a ninjutsu manner.


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## r.severe (Mar 11, 2005)

Donny, 
I understand you have a great deal of firearm training experience so please layout a guideline for us all to post with.. in terms of NINJUTSU firearms training.. if you have any experience at all that is.

I believe I was a black belt in Ninpo Taijutsu under Hatsumi sensei almost 10 years before you were correct? 

Maybe and just maybe I might understand Ninpo Taijutsu firearms a little more than you do.. understanding I have been tactical shooting for over 20 years. 

The original question Donny doesn't even have the word NINJUTSU in it and ask a list of simple questions regarding firearms training in your school-dojo.. I answered them opening and as I felt was rightious. Do you have a personal problem with what I stated Donny? 

Why not stop being rude and hateful.. this would be a start... then work on the firearms. 

Thanks,

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Mar 11, 2005)

Rude and hatefull??

Considering that you started off your post calling me "donny" that sounds rather strange for you to say. And yes, much of what you post does sound like a bad fortune cookie.

As for your experience- it really does not matter how long you have been teaching if you never understood the subject matter. Whenever I have taught the use of firearms, I have always stressed the basic rules of safety. Based on the following picture, that is not something you seem to care about.







Firearms safety is the start of all considerations when learning. You _never, ever_ point a firearm at another person- even an unloaded one. I think this needs to be stressed over and over again. Having seen the results of many an accident on the firing range where I worked, building in the habits of never pointing a weapon at another person is the first step of firearms instruction. Those that don't really can't say they know the first thing about firearms.


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## r.severe (Mar 12, 2005)

I'm sure the forum police will be upset with me for standing up to your poor and hateful propaganda but... 

Now now Donny.. you know what that photo shopws with your experience don't you?
Nothing.
I have been involved with firearms for the past 20 years.. and more as a youth before I even knew it what it was all about....
Your propaganda is like someone with experience out of a bad comicbook when it comes to most subjects where combative experience and for that matter knowledge is concerned.
You Japanese information is wonderful.. but falls short of any 'real life' experience outside the Dojo as a youth with Kevin Millis shihan.
I know your story and your past all to well.

Why not get your experience and then get some help with your hate and rude mindset towards anyone who does have experience way beyond anything you have.
You always seem to attack those you one, kiss your but and two those who have more experience and three don't care for the mickey mouse fantasy trip you are on in the Bujinkan Dojo.

Now back to subject.
I have trained so many military, law enforcement and body guards over the years that you have NO IDEA what firearms safety is or what I do as a teacher with firearms.

I train with LIVE and NON FIRING weaponry when it comes to firearms... either disarms, shooting or using it as a striking tool. The photo says nothing of NAY danger because there is Two policemen and one military guy in that one photos.. my friend Donny.

Again you don't get it.. and never will..

Drop the false ego because you fall short of real experience Donny.

Thanks,
ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Mar 12, 2005)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Drop the false ego because you fall short of real experience Donny.



Oh???

You say that I have less experience that you as if it were a fact. Tell you what Ralph, let us make a little bet. We can make it legal by tweaking it around a bit.

How about we each put 100,000 dollars into an escrow account under the control of someone we both trust. Then I reveal all the real world experiences I have backed up with relevent documents. If the head of the escrow (or a comitee) determines that my experiences are truely worthy of mention, then your 100,000 is released to me as a lesson fee. If they determine that I have no experience worth mentioning as you state, then I pay a penalty of 100,000 dollars.

If you are not confident enough to back up what you say with cash, then stop with your attacks. And I am not going to reveal anything without a substantial compensation.

I could use another 100k, and I am willing to bet your ego will force you into taking me up on my offer. And I _know_ what any fair person or comitee will say when faced with what I have. 

In fact, I have 250k I can get into an account if I have a little time. Anything up to that is fine with me. I am that confident that you would loose the bet as long as it is run by people I can trust like Bill Atkins, Bud Malmstrom or others like that.

Or you could stop trying to be alpha male and we have some peace around here. Win win situation on my part. I either get your cash, or I get some peace.

You know, Ashida Kim did the same thing and backed down when someone really did make the effort. Now they laugh at him. If you think I am bluffing, this is your chance to get people to laugh at me.


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## Don Roley (Mar 12, 2005)

r.severe said:
			
		

> The photo says nothing of NAY danger because there is Two policemen and one military guy in that one photos..



Now getting back to the subject, you really do not know anything about the basics of firearms and safety, do you? Just becasue there are police in the room does not change the rule that you never, ever point a real firearm at another person like you see in the picture.

Perhaps we should run a poll in the firearms section on whether the picture and your explination for it is valid in the minds of the experienced people here.


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## Tgace (Mar 12, 2005)

As long as the PROPER clearing procedures are followed and everybody involved in the training has checked the cleared weapons, and NO ammunition is within the training area, theres no problem with training with "real" weapons. The only problem I can physically observe in that picture is the fact that none of the grounded weapons appear to have the actions locked open so the chambers can be observed and I cant tell 100% but it looks like one of the Auto's has a magazine in it.


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## Don Roley (Mar 12, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> As long as the PROPER clearing procedures are followed and everybody involved in the training has checked the cleared weapons, and NO ammunition is within the training area, theres no problem with training with "real" weapons.



"Training" maybe. There are situations where you can use things like wax bullets, laser scoring systems etc, that obviously require you to use a real weapon and point it at another person.

But this is not a case where that is neccesary. It builds bad habits and as you noted, the actions are not open for inspection. If they were merely looking over various types of weapons, then there is no excuse to allow people to point weapons so out of hand at others.

This is an important starting point for learning to use weapons. A weapon is _always loaded._ Unless you are engaging in some sort of training such as MILES that _requires_ you to, you never build up the habits of pointing a gun at anything you don't want to destroy.


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## r.severe (Mar 12, 2005)

Donny,
Fact one is, you got noticed on your personal hateful and rude post and you&#8217;re mad about it now. You tried to twst it and can'r back up your mistake.
Fact two is, you can add nothing of personal experience to any combative questions from any forum.
Fact three is, you got noticed you have a personal grudge against others who do have experience in combative conflicts. This has always been the case with you on ANY forum.
Fact four is, I have 100&#8217;s of photos with firearms on my web page disarming, fixed bayonet, shooting, etc to prove for the last 15 or more years I have been involved in firearms and you can not prove anything about any personal experience at all.
Fact four is, you use copy-protected photos from my web site, which is wrong and totally wrong because you are a representative of this web site being a moderator. 
Fact five is, your bets mean nothing because I have personal friends that know you now and in the past and as well as myself on your experience. You will NEVER be able to hide it or avoid it.
Fact seven is, Donny you have really nothing to add to any combative post other than hearsay. This makes you the hateful person you are becuase you wish to be the all knowing. Sorry you can't.

Fact is Hatsumi senai has waved a firearm around many times at taikai and his classes and for some reason you don't have a proble with him doing it.
So what is your 'real' probelm Donny?
Fact is Hatsumi sensei has used many different types of weaponry and you never seem to have a problem with it.. holding a katana up to someones neck is not much different from having a unloaded firearm on the floor in a photo is it Donny? 

I think your problem is it's me. Right Donny. Someone with real life experience..

My proof is 100's of photos dating back well over 20 years on my web site..
and no problems with anyone being shot or hurt in any way.. so.. what is your problem Donny.. really?

My Academy has been in Dallas sense 1985.. don't you feel if there was a problem Donny the police would have shut me down... because they are police training with me as well as military training with me Donny..?
1985 to 2005... 
That's how long?


ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Mar 12, 2005)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Fact two is, you can add nothing of personal experience to any combative questions from any forum.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> ...



If you honestly believe that, then take me up on my 100k offer instead of attacking me. What do you have to loose if you are truely confident and honest in what you write? 

Of course, if you are lying, I do not expect you to take me up on my offer but continue to scream and try to talk about how I have no experience.


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## Kreth (Mar 12, 2005)

====================
Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Kreth
-MT Moderator-

====================


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## Don Roley (Mar 16, 2005)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Fact is Hatsumi sensei has used many different types of weaponry and you never seem to have a problem with it.. holding a katana up to someones neck is not much different from having a unloaded firearm on the floor in a photo is it Donny?



But the katana and guns he uses are not real, they are replicas. I have never seen nor heard of him using a real gun and pointing it in a casual manner towards another as the photo I posted shows you allowing.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 16, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> But the katana and guns he uses are not real, they are replicas. I have never seen nor heard of him using a real gun and pointing it in a casual manner towards another as the photo I posted shows you allowing.


He probably knows better since the scar on Noguchi sensei's neck appeared several years ago during a Taikai in Ireland...


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## KyleShort (Mar 16, 2005)

r.severe said:
			
		

> oh yes.. it is abundantly clear we live in times of abuse and hate amount human beings.
> It's not accidental we live in these times.. and have to search out didactic methods so not to be surprised by the on-going evil we live next to.
> Mere fantasy games or the XBox is just not enough to protect our living rights.
> 
> ...



I can't believe the direction that this thread has taken.  Ralph, the fact is that originally no one was responding to your first post about firearms training in your dojo ( except for Nim's underhanded comment about compensation).  Techno and Don were originally responding to the post I quoted above, and I am sorry but I have to agree...it does not make sense.

Clearly you understand what you wrote here, but know one else does.  I think you got defensive, thinking people were questioning your first post (when in fact it was your second) and that just opened up what appears to be old wounds between you and Don.

What a mess.


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## r.severe (Mar 16, 2005)

hello kyle,
I will rewrite this so you can catch the meaning. You&#8217;re not from Texas are you by any chance?
We live in times of hate, pain, abuse and suffering around the world. Pretty simple I believe. This is a fact and not hearsay or a faith-based idea out of a book or a movie. We live in a world that is just horrible with hate and greed. Do you disagree kyle?
In the next part I&#8217;m saying very clearly it is not an accident we live in this type of world because of the way we treat each other and the world we live on. In other words we mistreat everything we come into contact with.. to a point of no wholesome good comes from it.... Very simple and this is a fact and not faith-based knowledge too.
It states we need to search out education to deal with these facts so we are not over come by the evil in our lives.
The last line&#8230;. Most of what I read from the forums are faith based and fantasy from people who have no real time experience fighting experience regarding the post they base their information on. As in my buddy here I speak about. But that&#8217;s another story. He does well to hide it with information from tape and books.. and a few seminars. This is simple and easy to find out.. why.. no proof.

The next part.. pretty simple too.. I&#8217;m just happy.. pleased with what I do as a human being to ready myself in preparation for a conflict being natural or man made.

I hope kyle somehow you can now understand what I said.
By the way FYI, I really don&#8217;t take these forums seriously and this means kyle I don&#8217;t get trapped in the vortex of fear and ego.. meaning the idea of being defensive is silly.
As for old wounds.. I have no idea what you are referring to.

Here kyle is a shot from this past weekend.. as I stated I really train firearms.. it's not a fantasy.. every week kyle.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## r.severe (Mar 16, 2005)

Donny, I was pondering your bet, lets do it..
I was very busy with a seminar and couldn&#8217;t get back to you.. but I have a wonderful plan.. that will make your visit worth taking here&#8230;
I&#8217;ll meet you here at my Academy say, I will give you a month.. say by April 16th, 2005.. to do a test on your skills with firearms.
This will be shotgun, pistol and rifle.
I will match your bet at  that you cannot even pass the test with the firearms that will be waiting for you.
All ninjutsu style. you know...like you lie&#8230; soft and Ashida Kim method..
I know you want take it because you don't want anyone making fun of you right..?

Let us all find happiness and peace from this test Donny.. right.. you're the master right.

I posted this because it means nothing as your post on bets mean nothing.. silly immature Donny..

I bet this girl Jamie can out shoot you too.. ha ha ha 

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Tgace (Mar 16, 2005)

Needs to get her support hand higher up...too much hand showing below the magazine. Id have to see more photographs to be sure though...


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## r.severe (Mar 16, 2005)

I disagree..
Was this a form-gata-kata contect? No.. But a target hitting contest...
Meaning ...
She was tearing the target up at 21 feet with this sloopy method..
Form means nothing on the move.. and by the way.. this is a split second of a second in her shot..
She has been shooting for just three months.. very good hits, tactical movement, mag changes, and control over her body and tool during CQC..

Meaning photos mean nothing.. !
You prove my point.. Thanks..

Anyway I was there.. you were not. Right?

Here's a shot from March the 5th 2005..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Tgace (Mar 16, 2005)

Chill dude..I was just fishing for some more photographs. 

Of course form degrades in combat, however the range isnt combat. On the range and in the dojo, the goal should be perfect form. That way the degredation will be even less....


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## r.severe (Mar 16, 2005)

Hey, chili most !

No problem..

We all know who know.. meaning experience.. what form is during firearms 'school' training looks like..

This is NOT real time.. doing it on the move or during a fight.. right..

Understand every body is different there are no 'true' methods of form to judge by during combative methods.. only guidelines...

My point again is.. nothing can be understood from photos of a person's ability.. right...
You said that your self.. in another way but more or less the same..

The facts are.. I shoot and shoot weekly..
Range, Tactically and Academy training..
I know what is real and what is BS.. from that experience.
You cann take that as you wish.

What else can be said on this subject?

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Tgace (Mar 16, 2005)

Practice doesnt make prefect.....perfect practice makes perfect.


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## r.severe (Mar 16, 2005)

From your daily experience and job you carry what firearm?

Why?
What back-up?

I carry springfield XD 9mm, two extra 15 round mags either side holster or pouch.
Always night sights and never cock and locked..

My second carry is springfiled .45, 8 rond mag, two extra 8 roun mags same carry system if I do not carry other.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Tgace (Mar 16, 2005)

If I must post every projectile weapon Ive "qualified" with...

M16A2
M9
M60
Mk19
M2
M1911
M203
M4 *
MP5 *
G22 *
G27 *
Rem. 870 *
40mm Gas Gun *
*=Currently qualified

Ive fam. fired others these are just what Ive "qual" fired.


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## Blind (Mar 16, 2005)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Fact two is, you can add nothing of personal experience to any combative questions from any forum.
> 
> ralph severe, kamiyama


How does anyone "add personal experience TO a combative question FROM any forum" I will take the liberty of translating this to mean "your personal experiences don't qualify you to write anything of value in response to a combative question ON any forum". If I am incorrect please tell me what you meant.

Don obviously doesn't agree and so challenged you to a bet. Remember you said "NOTHING Ralph". This from the guy who just wrote:



			
				r.severe said:
			
		

> Understand everybody is different there are no true methods of form to judge by using combative methods.. only guidelines...


If there are only guidelines Ralph how can you say that Don has NOTHING to contribute. Just because you or your students MAY be able to out-shoot,or do whatever tests you concocted for firearms better than Don, who currently lives in a country that has total gun control, does not mean his in-put has no combat value. You did not take Don up on his bet in the original wording, probably because you know you would lose it....especially as there are no true methods of form to judge by.

Anyway with that said I think the most important thing in regard to firearms is awareness. If a skilled person with a firearm gets the drop on you it is really a bad spot to be in. As a beginner my training with firearms would amount to about 1%. Firstly because I come from a country that has quite strict gun control so the everyday Joe cannot carry a weapon(of any kind), the guys that do are criminals or the armed offenders squad, even our police don't carry. Secondly if I am ever in a position to disarm/use a firearm it will be my taijutsu that keeps me alive first, so I prefer to work with that. Not that the range doesn't have its place mind you.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 16, 2005)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Donny, I was pondering your bet, lets do it..



The bet was, specifically:



> How about we each put 100,000 dollars into an escrow account under the control of someone we both trust. Then I reveal all the real world experiences I have backed up with relevent documents. If the head of the escrow (or a comitee) determines that my experiences are truely worthy of mention, then your 100,000 is released to me as a lesson fee. If they determine that I have no experience worth mentioning as you state, then I pay a penalty of 100,000 dollars.
> 
> If you are not confident enough to back up what you say with cash, then stop with your attacks. And I am not going to reveal anything without a substantial compensation.


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## r.severe (Mar 16, 2005)

Tom, Great stuff..

But not what you have shot..
What do you carry?

I'm sure if we list the weponry we have shot then this could be a rather long list for the both of us..
And if we list what weaponry we have qualified with as well.

Blind, "Don, who currently lives in a country that has total gun control" Now that's the funny part everyone misses.. ha ha ha 
Donny has a great deal to offer.. always has.. his knowledge from books and tapes has made him like a deity on forums... but not when it comes to experience and real know how.. well.. let us face the truth.. or may I say 'get real' 
Going shooting once or maybe twice doesn't count much.. or sparring once or twice.. or even getting into a fight with your wife.. unless she kicks your but a few times.. right.
Donny has no proof.. or if he did he would show it..
Video tape..?
Ok.. I'll even take that.. show us some sparring.. shooting... knife fighting Donny..
He knows as well as I know he will not take my bet on my testing him..
He's not going to do it.. And if so he most likely not survive it.. so who's to say who's right and wrong.. but the test will tell right...

You know I'm not full of BS because my web site is full of shots of the real thing.. year after year.. no joking there.. and no way to pass it off as BS either as Donny would like to..
He has always had a thing for me from the trip to New Mexico.. then in Texas.. right Donny...

Oh yes Daley my bet was to the point as well..
Read again and make sure you get the deatails.. will Donny show?

Donny, I was pondering your bet, lets do it..
I was very busy with a seminar and couldn&#8217;t get back to you.. but I have a wonderful plan.. that will make your visit worth taking here&#8230;
I&#8217;ll meet you here at my Academy say, I will give you a month.. say by April 16th, 2005.. to do a test on your skills with firearms.
This will be shotgun, pistol and rifle.
I will match your bet at that you cannot even pass the test with the firearms that will be waiting for you.
All ninjutsu style. you know...like you lie&#8230; soft and Ashida Kim method..
I know you want take it because you don't want anyone making fun of you right..?

Donny post a lot of stuff.. but can't back it up and here's a chance for him to do so.. right... go Donny.

Let us not bet money let us bet.. say a finger.. right on.. let us do that.. that is the way to go in Texas.


ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Tgace (Mar 16, 2005)

Well those are weapons I have "qualified" with, meaning I had to shoot to a gvt. (fed/local) approved standard to be able to carry them on duty. 



The ones with the "*" are what I "carry" as Im on my dept. SWAT team I qualify quarterly. What do I carry to the grocery store? My G27......


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 16, 2005)

Whenever I'm feeling blue, whenever I'm feeling low, there's one thing I can always count on being able to save my day.

The thought of Ralph's knees.

Have a nice day.


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## Blind (Mar 16, 2005)

Don "currently" lives here, I have no idea on his past experience, however his bet was not to prove to "you" anything, as Dale posted. Re: video footage of stuff...who cares IMO, Tom Cruise looked pretty swish with a hand gun in Collateral. 

I am not saying training is as good as combat experience, but combat experience is not the be all and end all, otherwise training would have no purpose, to that end you saying he has "nothing" to offer is a flawed in my opinion. Maybe you should revise your statement.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 16, 2005)

This thread is currently under going an Admin Review. Please be patient.

*
Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Super Moderator
*


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