# In these strange times....



## Buka (Mar 23, 2020)

Usually us older guys can say "this reminds of..." 
But this pandemic thing is different, it doesn't remind me of anything that I can remember. 
And we can't know where it's going from here.

While we all spend more time stuck sheltering in place, at least we have a nice forum to talk chop and such.

Maybe it's a good idea to lighten up on all the bickering, insulting and anger fuelled personal attack bull sheet. And it really is bull sheet. Heck, we all train, it's not like we discuss how Martial Arts is better than baseball, parkour or online poker, we're all Martial Artists. That should count for something

Maybe we call all chill a bit and enjoy each other more. Just a thought.

Stay safe, everyone. I kind of like you guys and wish you and your families well.


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## Tez3 (Mar 23, 2020)

Post up on my 'makes you laugh' thread! 
The UK is in  lockdown now, mostly due to the idiots who couldn't understand what social isolation meant and why they were asked to do it. We are allowed out of the house only to shop for food (only food shops open now), get medical treatment and essential workers are the only ones allowed to work. Two people max outside, police will have extra powers.   Strict new curbs on life in UK announced by PM


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 23, 2020)

well this reminds me of the plague of "24",  thats 1924 for you youngins.  it was quite a debacle Dr. Dickie got himself in.  and he"s not a Bunbury mind you and there were many a persons young and old with febricula.  you see many of the City officials were full of ultracrepidarianism's and they pulled back on the funding needed. there were already too many people in bedlam.  well i might be a bit caducity now but i do seem to remember going down to the millinery and getting a new straw boater in the off chance there was news to be had.


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## jobo (Mar 23, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Post up on my 'makes you laugh' thread!
> The UK is in  lockdown now, mostly due to the idiots who couldn't understand what social isolation meant and why they were asked to do it. We are allowed out of the house only to shop for food (only food shops open now), get medical treatment and essential workers are the only ones allowed to work. Two people max outside, police will have extra powers.   Strict new curbs on life in UK announced by PM


its far from clear what we can and cant do, but its not only food shops that can open, there a longish list including bicycle shops that can open, so you can go out to shop for bicycles and then one assumes that you can go out on your new bike for a ride, as exercise is allowed,  or you can drive to the Yorkshire moors to take a walk as is visiting people. in fact having look at his statement i can see no indication that going out and about will be illegal, as long as there are only to two, if not family members` and as many family members as you like @@@ yea there all mi bros officer''

though how anyone will know if five people walking dwn the road at the same time are together or not, im not sure and as the police have gone sick in record numbers im not sure who is likely to try and enforce it anyway

im predicting riots quite soon, in fact just as soon as the yuffs realise that the police have all gone off sick and then can do much as they please


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

jobo said:


> its far from clear what we can and cant do, but its not only food shops that can open, there a longish list including bicycle shops that can open, so you can go out to shop for bicycles and then one assumes that you can go out on your new bike for a ride, as exercise is allowed,  or you can drive to the Yorkshire moors to take a walk as is visiting people. in fact having look at his statement i can see no indication that going out and about will be illegal, as long as there are only to two, if not family members` and as menny family members as you like
> 
> though how anyone will know if five people walking dwn the road at the same time are together or not, im not sure and as the police have gone sick in record numbers im not sure who is likely to try and enforce it anyway
> 
> im predicting riots quit soon


I've been predicting riots in NY for a bit, with the restrictions, running out of stuff, and my cousins (NYPD) increased work schedule. They still haven't happened yet, surprisingly.


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## jobo (Mar 23, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> I've been predicting riots in NY for a bit, with the restrictions, running out of stuff, and my cousins (NYPD) increased work schedule. They still haven't happened yet, surprisingly.


riots generally need warm weather, no one wants to riot in freezing rain


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 23, 2020)

Buka said:


> Usually us older guys can say "this reminds of..."
> But this pandemic thing is different, it doesn't remind me of anything that I can remember.
> And we can't know where it's going from here.
> 
> ...



Why you I otta....PARKOUR INDEED!!!! 

Actually traffic wise it is reminding me of 9/11....yup I'm an old guy....it is also reminding me of 9/11 by the feeling of helplessness I have...I had just left state security and started in IT and on 9/11, after the governor closed the state and sent us all home,I went to my old security office to see what I had to do (old habits die hard, especially when it has only been a few weeks) and they said nothing, go home, you're a civilian now. Pretty much the same feeling I have these days.

We are all martial artists, and I am once again going to show my age, and all you old MA dinosaurs will know it.  Yeah we had our opinions of whose art did something better way back in the stone age, but we were all on the same side, all got along and any proof of what as better was handled on a mat. Mouth of too much and the whole boot to the head thing, a funny skit now, could be very real then....god I miss those days.

OK enough old guy reminiscing.

After finally getting his black belt a Karate guy s just itching to show how tough he is.... so he hops in his car and goes looking for a fight. Finally a guy in a truck cuts him off so he chases him down and when the truck pulls over the guy jumps out, takes his stance and yells "KARATE" guy jumps out of the truck and yells "MONKEY WRENCH"


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## jobo (Mar 23, 2020)

just been watching a vid of a guy crunching the numbers for america, if nothing changes very drastically by tomorrow at the latest, then its 5 million dead by the end of April, which they could reduce to a few hundred thousand if they lock it down tight


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## dvcochran (Mar 23, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Why you I otta....PARKOUR INDEED!!!!
> 
> Actually traffic wise it is reminding me of 9/11....yup I'm an old guy....it is also reminding me of 9/11 by the feeling of helplessness I have...I had just left state security and started in IT and on 9/11, after the governor closed the state and sent us all home,I went to my old security office to see what I had to do (old habits die hard, especially when it has only been a few weeks) and they said nothing, go home, you're a civilian now. Pretty much the same feeling I have these days.
> 
> ...


Yep, never bring a knife to a gun fight.


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## geezer (Mar 23, 2020)

jobo said:


> just been watching a vid of a guy crunching the numbers for america, if nothing changes very drastically by tomorrow at the latest, then its 5 million dead by the end of April, which they could reduce to a few hundred thousand if they lock it down tight



Well it seems that there are two schools of thought emerging on that. One group, lead by epidemiologists and other health experts, favors a prolonged lock-down to "flatten the curve" and get us through with the least loss of life.

The other group, including some people more concerned about business and finance, feels that another 2 weeks of lockdown is the max that the economy can bear. Then we should scale back our restrictions and start rebuilding our economy. If we lose a few million, so be it, at least we will keep our economy intact and consequently there will be less suffering in the long run.

Right now our president has a foot in each camp ...which might explain why we are not doing much of anything effectively.  Now I'm not about to get involved in politics. My point is simply that I'm not sure which approach will win out. Either way, it will be interesting for you to observe from afar. Unfortunately for us here in the States, it might get a little too interesting.


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## Buka (Mar 23, 2020)

jobo said:


> its far from clear what we can and cant do, but its not only food shops that can open, there a longish list including bicycle shops that can open, so you can go out to shop for bicycles and then one assumes that you can go out on your new bike for a ride, as exercise is allowed,  or you can drive to the Yorkshire moors to take a walk as is visiting people. in fact having look at his statement i can see no indication that going out and about will be illegal, as long as there are only to two, if not family members` and as many family members as you like @@@ yea there all mi bros officer''
> 
> though how anyone will know if five people walking dwn the road at the same time are together or not, im not sure and as the police have gone sick in record numbers im not sure who is likely to try and enforce it anyway
> 
> im predicting riots quite soon, in fact just as soon as the yuffs realise that the police have all gone off sick and then can do much as they please



Like back in the days of The Mods and The Rockers? I hope not. 

I don’t think there will be riots here. But if there is I kind of feel sorry for the rioters. I don’t think they’re going to be handled/tolerated the way they usually are.


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## geezer (Mar 23, 2020)

Buka said:


> Like back in the days of The Mods and The Rockers? I hope not.
> 
> I don’t think there will be riots here. But if there is I kind of feel sorry for the rioters. I don’t think they’re going to be handled/tolerated the way they usually are.



With most things, if a bunch of people are really angry, protests and even riots are an option. It becomes less of an option when you really don't want to be around other people for fear of getting gravely ill. At least that's my perspective.


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## skribs (Mar 23, 2020)

Buka said:


> Usually us older guys can say "this reminds of..."
> But this pandemic thing is different, it doesn't remind me of anything that I can remember.
> And we can't know where it's going from here.



I was thinking about this the other day.  I was trying to think of what I could compare this to.  9/11 came to mind.  I don't think 9/11 holds a candle to this.  9/11 had around 3,000 deaths.  It affected travel in and through the US ever since, and it had a strong impact on US foreign policy for that time as well.  It started a couple of wars.  If you include all of the deaths from those wars, it's probably worse than COVID-19 (so far).  

Worldwide there's already been 16,000 deaths from COVID-19.  Many countries are shutting down.  As bad as 9/11 was, it didn't really have much of a direct impact on everyone's lives outside of New York and Washington.  But this is reaching everywhere.  

I honestly think you'd have to go back to WW2 to find something that's had an effect this profound on the US, or on the World.  And I don't think there's many people on here old enough to remember WW2.

And don't get me wrong.  9/11 was a horrible tragedy and I'm not trying to dismiss it.  I'm just saying that's the only thing I could think of to compare this crisis, and this crisis seems bigger.


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2020)

The point of the lockdown is to stop the hospitals being flooded to the point of collapse. Even the best systems will collapse under the weight of thousands needing respirators and beds. Only idiots would keep non food shops open, though these strictures would not have needed to be put in place if the idiots hadn't decided to go to the beaches, hills etc in great crowds. what they don't understand is it's not about them catching it. they miss they point massively and don't realise what they are doing, morons every one.

The medics need us to remain at home, watching television, reading books, playing with the kids etc, how hard is that? We aren't being asked to go on the front line, man the trenches and anything even vaguely onerous, just to stay at home, the medics, the police, the delivery drivers, the food manufacturers, the care workers are doing the heavy lifting for us, they're the ones putting their lives on the line so our health services don't collapse and more people die. Just bloody stay home.


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2020)

skribs said:


> And I don't think there's many people on here old enough to remember WW2.




There are millions who remember in Europe, many who were children who remember the bombing, the starvation and the homelessness. There's even more millions who remember the aftermath, growing up orphans or without one parent, the rationing that went on through the 1950s, the poverty and the grimness.


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## jobo (Mar 24, 2020)

Buka said:


> Like back in the days of The Mods and The Rockers? I hope not.
> 
> I don’t think there will be riots here. But if there is I kind of feel sorry for the rioters. I don’t think they’re going to be handled/tolerated the way they usually are.


 that rather depends if there are anyone left healthy to deal with the rioting, police officers are now an extremely high risk group, it seem a reasonably sure thing that they will contract the virus as a faster rate than the general population, who are in various ways self limiting exposure, ways that in the largest part are not available to law enforcement, of corse police officers with the virus are also a very efficient way of spreading it as well


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## jobo (Mar 24, 2020)

geezer said:


> Well it seems that there are two schools of thought emerging on that. One group, lead by epidemiologists and other health experts, favors a prolonged lock-down to "flatten the curve" and get us through with the least loss of life.
> 
> The other group, including some people more concerned about business and finance, feels that another 2 weeks of lockdown is the max that the economy can bear. Then we should scale back our restrictions and start rebuilding our economy. If we lose a few million, so be it, at least we will keep our economy intact and consequently there will be less suffering in the long run.
> 
> Right now our president has a foot in each camp ...which might explain why we are not doing much of anything effectively.  Now I'm not about to get involved in politics. My point is simply that I'm not sure which approach will win out. Either way, it will be interesting for you to observe from afar. Unfortunately for us here in the States, it might get a little too interesting.



the problem with people doing mathematical progressions is thay are ignoring, social/economic and cultural factors  that will increase or decrease the spread in various demographics, in its simplest form those that live in over crowded accommodation and have to use public transport are massively more at risk than those who can  close their gated communities and travel by car or just afford to stay home and with no hint pf politics,.those groups that have access to high quality health care will have a lower death toll

and as i said in another posts, the police and a likely vector for spreading the virus so those communities that have a higher instance of contact with the police are likely to progress faster than other groups


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2020)

jobo said:


> that rather depends if there are anyone left healthy to deal with the rioting, police officers are now an extremely high risk group, it seem a reasonably sure thing that they will contract the virus as a faster rate than the general population, who are in various ways self limiting exposure, ways that in the largest part are not available to law enforcement, of corse police officers with the virus are also a very efficient way of spreading it as well




I doubt there will be rioting, Disney plus has just launched and have you seen how many films are on there? 

British military are riot trained, police aren't needed. Any moronic imbecile who thinks rioting would be fun will soon be persuaded that it's not a good idea after having 'words' with either a Gurkha or a Fijian never mind the other squaddies who have their own families to worry about and so will have no time for the stupid elements of our society. then there's the Navy Masters at Arms, nasty buggers them, and the Bootnecks, I can think of thousands of reason why people shouldn't riot and if they do, ( though mostly likely won't after all we're not French!) well it will be short lived but fun to watch for the rest of us.


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## jobo (Mar 24, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I doubt there will be rioting, Disney plus has just launched and have you seen how many films are on there?
> 
> British military are riot trained, police aren't needed. Any moronic imbecile who thinks rioting would be fun will soon be persuaded that it's not a good idea after having 'words' with either a Gurkha or a Fijian never mind the other squaddies who have their own families to worry about and so will have no time for the stupid elements of our society. then there's the Navy Masters at Arms, nasty buggers them, and the Bootnecks, I can think of thousands of reason why people shouldn't riot and if they do, ( though mostly likely won't after all we're not French!) well it will be short lived but fun to watch for the rest of us.


 the military are far more at risk than any other group i can think of apart from the prison populations, so they are likely to be ill in fairly large numbers as well, putting troops on the streets to deal with disorder would be a huge step and has a rather bad history of not only not being effective but making matters much much worse


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2020)

jobo said:


> the military are far more at risk than any other group i can think of apart from the prison populations, so they are likely to be ill in fairly large numbers as well, putting troops on the streets to deal with disorder would be a huge step and has a rather bad history of not only not being effective but making matters much much worse




Why would you think they are more at risk? They are all fit and healthy, they have their respirators to put on when out, ( Covid19 isn't nearly as bad as nerve agents). It's unlikely they will be used because the Brits aren't going to bother rioting, why would they, they are being paid to stay at home.


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## jobo (Mar 24, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Why would you think they are more at risk? They are all fit and healthy, they have their respirators to put on when out, ( Covid19 isn't nearly as bad as nerve agents). It's unlikely they will be used because the Brits aren't going to bother rioting, why would they, they are being paid to stay at home.


 because they cant by definition all stay indoors for two months or keep umpteen meters apart when they are in a troop carrier. eating in a canteen etal

there not at serious risk of death, they are most certainly at high risk of getting ill

with had serious rioting over more trivial issues than this, wait till the police try to break up large gangs of youths in brixton etc or they realise there is no one available to stop them looting footlocker


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2020)

jobo said:


> because they cant by definition all stay indoors for two months or keep umpteen meters apart when they are in a troop carrier. eating in a canteen etal
> 
> there not at serious risk of death, they are most certainly at high risk of getting ill
> 
> with had serious rioting over more trivial issues than this, wait till the police try to break up large gangs of youths in brixton etc or they realise there is no one available to stop them looting footlocker




Few soldiers eat in a 'canteen' anymore, they have kitchens in their blocks, they don't pay for their food out of their pay anymore, they can isolate quite well as they have single en suite rooms. If one person gets ill, they can isolate ( as they did during a meningitis outbreak a little while ago) they will all recover much at much same time. there's medic to look after them. The military aren't all going to get ill at the same time, there's always going to be enough for whatever is needed.
Plans for a pandemic have been around for decades including the use of troops for various tasks, it's unlikely there will be rioting or looting though, while many are idiots most aren't that stupid.


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## jobo (Mar 24, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Few soldiers eat in a 'canteen' anymore, they have kitchens in their blocks, they don't pay for their food out of their pay anymore, they can isolate quite well as they have single en suite rooms. If one person gets ill, they can isolate ( as they did during a meningitis outbreak a little while ago) they will all recover much at much same time. there's medic to look after them. The military aren't all going to get ill at the same time, there's always going to be enough for whatever is needed.
> Plans for a pandemic have been around for decades including the use of troops for various tasks, it's unlikely there will be rioting or looting though, while many are idiots most aren't that stupid.


it will go through that population at  no less a rate than the population at large and probably much faster, unless they are all currently confined to their homes, isolating those who show symptoms is far to late too stop the spread and that makes me wonder who is guarding the tanks ?

of course if they are all confined you cant load them in troop cariers and send them all to London to deal with disorder issues, can you or by the time they get their they will all have it. the problem with this virus is yes, most people will get ill at the same time. its spreading faster than people are recovering, projections show that the number of infected exceed the number of confirmed case by x 10


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## jobo (Mar 24, 2020)

geezer said:


> Well it seems that there are two schools of thought emerging on that. One group, lead by epidemiologists and other health experts, favors a prolonged lock-down to "flatten the curve" and get us through with the least loss of life.
> 
> The other group, including some people more concerned about business and finance, feels that another 2 weeks of lockdown is the max that the economy can bear. Then we should scale back our restrictions and start rebuilding our economy. If we lose a few million, so be it, at least we will keep our economy intact and consequently there will be less suffering in the long run.
> 
> Right now our president has a foot in each camp ...which might explain why we are not doing much of anything effectively.  Now I'm not about to get involved in politics. My point is simply that I'm not sure which approach will win out. Either way, it will be interesting for you to observe from afar. Unfortunately for us here in the States, it might get a little too interesting.


 and yes, there seems a very real chance that they will throw the baby out with the bath water, and that global economic calapse will kill far more people than the virus


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## dvcochran (Mar 24, 2020)

Buka said:


> Like back in the days of The Mods and The Rockers? I hope not.
> 
> I don’t think there will be riots here. But if there is I kind of feel sorry for the rioters. I don’t think they’re going to be handled/tolerated the way they usually are.


I have said many times the locks on my doors and windows are protect the person trying to come inside (looters). A Big surprise is on the other side of the door. And under the circumstances any and all warning will be foregone.


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## dvcochran (Mar 24, 2020)

skribs said:


> I was thinking about this the other day.  I was trying to think of what I could compare this to.  9/11 came to mind.  I don't think 9/11 holds a candle to this.  9/11 had around 3,000 deaths.  It affected travel in and through the US ever since, and it had a strong impact on US foreign policy for that time as well.  It started a couple of wars.  If you include all of the deaths from those wars, it's probably worse than COVID-19 (so far).
> 
> Worldwide there's already been 16,000 deaths from COVID-19.  Many countries are shutting down.  As bad as 9/11 was, it didn't really have much of a direct impact on everyone's lives outside of New York and Washington.  But this is reaching everywhere.
> 
> ...



There is little to compare between 9/11 and Covid-19. The former was a attack from foreign entities. Once the physical attack and subsequent cleanup was over the risk of harm was over. It was an immediate effect that was seen, identified, and processed right away. It did change policy and people's psyche. The health risks (physical) were limited to the area of the attack.
Covid is silent and nearly intangible. It has effected everyone (worldwide), either with health issue or minor social discomfort. The financial implications have already been much more far reaching. It is a much greater test of our human compassion, sensibilities, and simple need to act like humans. I feel it speaks volumes that there has been on riots or looting. I give our government and our people big props for this. 
No government is ever 'prepared' for something like this because it so rarely happens and the precautions are different each time.  
Personal mental, physical and financial preparation are the best anyone can do. This is 101 for life as a whole. The rest of it has to be dealt with just like we do any other adversity in life. 
I hope everyone are safe, healthy, and happy.


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2020)

jobo said:


> it will go through that population at  no less a rate than the population at large and probably much faster, unless they are all currently confined to their homes, isolating those who show symptoms is far to late too stop the spread and that makes me wonder who is guarding the tanks ?
> 
> of course if they are all confined you cant load them in troop cariers and send them all to London to deal with disorder issues, can you or by the time they get their they will all have it. the problem with this virus is yes, most people will get ill at the same time. its spreading faster than people are recovering, projections show that the number of infected exceed the number of confirmed case by x 10




What tanks? We don't have any. If we did there is a dedicated armed Guard Service to do just that.
The military don't get on 'troop carriers' any more, they get in Chinooks, I imagine though a couple of Apaches will soon quieten the rioters down don't you  considering many of the troops worked in Africa during the Ebola epidemic I doubt they are bothered by this disease. If you think they aren't prepared for this then you're mistaken, action was taken quite some time ago which means the troops will be ready for whatever they need to do.


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## jobo (Mar 24, 2020)

[



dvcochran said:


> There is little to compare between 9/11 and Covid-19. The former was a attack from foreign entities. Once the physical attack and subsequent cleanup was over the risk of harm was over. It was an immediate effect that was seen, identified, and processed right away. It did change policy and people's psyche. The health risks (physical) were limited to the area of the attack.
> Covid is silent and nearly intangible. It has effected everyone (worldwide), either with health issue or minor social discomfort. The financial implications have already been much more far reaching. It is a much greater test of our human compassion, sensibilities, and simple need to act like humans. I feel it speaks volumes that there has been on riots or looting. I give our government and our people big props for this.
> No government is ever 'prepared' for something like this because it so rarely happens and the precautions are different each time.
> Personal mental, physical and financial preparation are the best anyone can do. This is 101 for life as a whole. The rest of it has to be dealt with just like we do any other adversity in life.
> I hope everyone are safe, healthy, and happy.



9 11 did lead to millions of deaths after the clean up, just not in america


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## dvcochran (Mar 24, 2020)

jobo said:


> it will go through that population at  no less a rate than the population at large and probably much faster, unless they are all currently confined to their homes, isolating those who show symptoms is far to late too stop the spread and that makes me wonder who is guarding the tanks ?
> 
> of course if they are all confined you cant load them in troop cariers and send them all to London to deal with disorder issues, can you or by the time they get their they will all have it. the problem with this virus is yes, most people will get ill at the same time. its spreading faster than people are recovering, projections show that the number of infected exceed the number of confirmed case by x 10


Your country has rioters all ready?


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## dvcochran (Mar 24, 2020)

jobo said:


> [
> 
> 
> 
> 9 11 did lead to millions of deaths after the clean up, just not in america


Please elaborate.


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## jobo (Mar 24, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> What tanks? We don't have any. If we did there is a dedicated armed Guard Service to do just that.
> The military don't get on 'troop carriers' any more, they get in Chinooks, I imagine though a couple of Apaches will soon quieten the rioters down don't you  considering many of the troops worked in Africa during the Ebola epidemic I doubt they are bothered by this disease. If you think they aren't prepared for this then you're mistaken, action was taken quite some time ago which means the troops will be ready for whatever they need to do.


of course they arnt prepared the British army is never prepared for anything

''right your off to fight a desert wa'r'' ;; can we have desert boots and body armour and armoured cars ''

dont be silly, off you go


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## jobo (Mar 24, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Please elaborate.


what you missed the resultant wars in Iraq and Afghanistan ?

Brown University’s Costs of War Project this month released a new estimate of the total death toll from the U.S. wars in three countries: Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. The numbers, while conservatively estimated, are staggering. Brown’s researchers estimate that at least 480,000 people have been directly killed by violence over the course of these conflicts, more than 244,000 of them civilians. In addition to those killed by direct acts violence, the number of indirect deaths — those resulting from disease, displacement, and the loss of critical infrastructure — is believed to be several times higher, running into the millions.

It’s Time for America to Reckon With the Staggering Death Toll of the Post-9/11 Wars

NB if saying that 9 11 was terrible, which it was isnt political, then saying that the resultant death toll in wars is terrible is also not political

or if one is, they both are


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## jobo (Mar 24, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Your country has rioters all ready?


hard to say with the news blackout, but as yet it seems the country cant deal with people going for a walk in the sunshine


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 24, 2020)

Stay safe everyone.


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## skribs (Mar 24, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> There is little to compare between 9/11 and Covid-19.



It's the only other event in my life that everyone remembers.  There's no other "where were you when X happened."  There's no other event I can think of that I can imagine my nephew (or if I ever have kids, then my kids and grandkids) asking me "what was that like?"  Everything else that's happened has been a fleeting moment in the news, or something personal to me.

9/11 and the COVID-19 quarantines are the only two things I can think of that will make history books, which I can expect every kid to ask their parents and grandparents about.



dvcochran said:


> Please elaborate.



I don't know the full numbers.  But if include casualties on both sides of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, it's at least in the hundreds of thousands.  The best number I could find is 480,000 in Afganistan, Iraq, and Pakistan.  That's on all sides (including civilians).  However, that's over the course of 2001-2018, so around 17 years.  COVID-19 is projected to kill far more people than that before this crisis is over.


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Your country has rioters all ready?




of course we haven't this is a hypothetical discussion




jobo said:


> hard to say with the news blackout, but as yet it seems the country cant deal with people going for a walk in the sunshine






jobo said:


> of course they arnt prepared the British army is never prepared for anything



Don't wind him up he will use it to insult our 'tiny insignificant island' as he called it, again.

which is why we have the RAF, Navy and Royal Marines.


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2020)

This is why there's no riots in London.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 24, 2020)

A song for the times

Keeping my distance


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 24, 2020)

jobo said:


> what you missed the resultant wars in Iraq and Afghanistan ?
> 
> Brown University’s Costs of War Project this month released a new estimate of the total death toll from the U.S. wars in three countries: Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. The numbers, while conservatively estimated, are staggering. Brown’s researchers estimate that at least 480,000 people have been directly killed by violence over the course of these conflicts, more than 244,000 of them civilians. In addition to those killed by direct acts violence, the number of indirect deaths — those resulting from disease, displacement, and the loss of critical infrastructure — is believed to be several times higher, running into the millions.
> 
> ...


So you are off by a factor of millions. Brilliant. We so need someone stirring the pot right now.


----------



## jobo (Mar 24, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> So you are off by a factor of millions. Brilliant. We so need someone stirring the pot right now.




Ahem ''In addition to those killed by direct acts violence, the number of indirect deaths — those resulting from disease, displacement, and the loss of critical infrastructure — is believed to be several times higher,* running into the millions.''*


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2020)

skribs said:


> COVID-19 is projected to kill far more people than that before this crisis is over.



And it will kill most of those in the refugee camps because of those wars.

While reeling off the numbers of dead in those wars you should remind yourself that many of those dead were friends, colleagues and family to a lot of us, not just numbers to be bandied around.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 24, 2020)

jobo said:


> Ahem ''In addition to those killed by direct acts violence, the number of indirect deaths — those resulting from disease, displacement, and the loss of critical infrastructure — is believed to be several times higher,* running into the millions.''*


BS, self made up numbers. BS


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 24, 2020)

Buka said:


> Usually us older guys can say "this reminds of..."
> But this pandemic thing is different, it doesn't remind me of anything that I can remember.
> And we can't know where it's going from here.
> 
> ...


emphasis added, because I'd hate to have to get official...

I agree; there's nothing to really compare it to.  It's eerie; traffic at "rush hour" is less than a slow day.  But, much to my surprise so far, people are being somewhat nicer to each other.  There are still a lot here in the US and in my area who don't really seem to understand the threat -- hell, I'm still not sure what's what in that regard, but I damn scared -- and who aren't complying with requests which is why we now have a month of shutdown, and the school year ended early.

Then there are the economic impacts...  Lots of people are losing jobs, businesses are going under, whole segments of industry and commerce are being shattered.  If they prolong the lock down much beyond early May, I fear that our economy will be fully destroyed, and the world-wide economies are so interrelated that they can't say what's what...


----------



## drop bear (Mar 24, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> What tanks? We don't have any. If we did there is a dedicated armed Guard Service to do just that.
> The military don't get on 'troop carriers' any more, they get in Chinooks, I imagine though a couple of Apaches will soon quieten the rioters down don't you  considering many of the troops worked in Africa during the Ebola epidemic I doubt they are bothered by this disease. If you think they aren't prepared for this then you're mistaken, action was taken quite some time ago which means the troops will be ready for whatever they need to do.



We get troops in bushmasters every time they call out for a cyclone.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 25, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> What tanks? We don't have any.



WHAT? No tanks??? You need some. Really, you do. Every army needs some tanks. Tanks are just too cool not to have. I'd have one myself, if I could.


----------



## jobo (Mar 25, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> BS, self made up numbers. BS


i provided a link to the article, the number come from an esteemed american university


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 25, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> WHAT? No tanks??? You need some. Really, you do. Every army needs some tanks. Tanks are just too cool not to have. I'd have one myself, if I could.




We used to but Op Herrick showed that they were too vulnerable to ieds and land mines so a new breed of vehicle was designed and used. We have a lot of them because they are still being used in Afghanistan, many people think the troops were pulled out but there's both American and British troops there in sizeable numbers.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 25, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> BS, self made up numbers. BS



who is making these numbers up and how do you to plan to show they are wrong?

Costs of War


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 25, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> We used to but Op Herrick showed that they were too vulnerable to ieds and land mines so a new breed of vehicle was designed and used. We have a lot of them because they are still being used in Afghanistan, many people think the troops were pulled out but there's both American and British troops there in sizeable numbers.



I couldn't possibly care less. Tanks are cool. Full stop. If I had a spare two or three hundred thousand lying around, I'd sure buy one.
Maybe when I get my next paycheck from MartialTalk.


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 25, 2020)

Buka said:


> Usually us older guys can say "this reminds of..."
> But this pandemic thing is different, it doesn't remind me of anything that I can remember.
> And we can't know where it's going from here.
> 
> ...


Well said Buka . You're a warm soul whom I have grown rather fond of, as have many here.

We do have a nice place here, and I enjoy all your company very much.

I feel like alot of you guys are dojo mates.

Stay safe all


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 25, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Post up on my 'makes you laugh' thread!
> The UK is in  lockdown now, mostly due to the idiots who couldn't understand what social isolation meant and why they were asked to do it. We are allowed out of the house only to shop for food (only food shops open now), get medical treatment and essential workers are the only ones allowed to work. Two people max outside, police will have extra powers.   Strict new curbs on life in UK announced by PM


Oh wow really... yeah am pretty sure we're heading in that direction, albeit slowly. But feels like it'll happen very soon.

Take care of yourself and loved ones Tez3.


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 25, 2020)

Buka said:


> Like back in the days of The Mods and The Rockers? I hope not.
> 
> I don’t think there will be riots here. But if there is I kind of feel sorry for the rioters. I don’t think they’re going to be handled/tolerated the way they usually are.


Social distance rioting! Livestream rioting!


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## Tez3 (Mar 25, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I couldn't possibly care less. Tanks are cool. Full stop. If I had a spare two or three hundred thousand lying around, I'd sure buy one.
> Maybe when I get my next paycheck from MartialTalk.




We used to have them up here at the garrison, the 'whump' as they fired up on the ranges was an everyday occurrence, used to scare the tourists lol.  As I've said before we have a lot of sheep up here and the farmers had a nice sideline in compensation for sheep either blown up or run over by the tanks. We have a road which is used to get to the ranges that has extra strong kerbstones, the road is still known as the 'tank road' to locals.


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## dvcochran (Mar 25, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> who is making these numbers up and how do you to plan to show they are wrong?
> 
> Costs of War


Brown University; This article was biased from jump. It is laced with journalist misspeak and misleading statements. Such as; how is 310,000 the majority of 800,000? One of many examples. Take some of your free time and research the refugees. Most of them happily left of their own free will a country/area in which they were living with absolutely no hope for a future of any kind, before intervention.
I have no idea how a mind can get so twisted that it thinks the US created the Islamic State. Twilight Zone stuff.
One glaring stat that I could find no mention of was that of the 800,000 killed, 64% of this was caused by in-faction fighting. Countrymen fighting countrymen. That seems to be conveniently left out. 
Your country still shows as having a considerable troop count in Afghanistan. 

I am still not certain what your agenda is. A specific article/site is not accurate sampling. It is spin doctoring which is something we certainly do not need right now.
It is sad that we have to resort to surfing through articles from multiple sources understand what the media is actually saying theses days.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 25, 2020)

jobo said:


> Ahem ''In addition to those killed by direct acts violence, the number of indirect deaths — those resulting from disease, displacement, and the loss of critical infrastructure — is believed to be several times higher,* running into the millions.''*


Did you perhaps miss the point of this thread?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 25, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I couldn't possibly care less. Tanks are cool. Full stop. If I had a spare two or three hundred thousand lying around, I'd sure buy one.
> Maybe when I get my next paycheck from MartialTalk.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 25, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Social distance rioting! Livestream rioting!


Riot via Twitch. I'm going to go put that on my interest list right now.


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## Tez3 (Mar 25, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Your country still shows as having a considerable troop count in Afghanistan.




As does yours. You actually have more than the UK, over 12,000 plus civilian contractors.




dvcochran said:


> A specific article/site is not accurate sampling. It is spin doctoring which is something we certainly do not need right now.


​

You are incorrect in this instance.. The specific site I posted is the university one on which you can read the actual report, it is not the site jobo posted up. If you have a disagreement then it is with the university. You need facts and figures to refute their report not just 'oh it's BS'. You have made lots of statements without substantiating any of them.   



dvcochran said:


> I have no idea how a mind can get so twisted that it thinks the US created the Islamic State. Twilight Zone stuff.




I don't actually think that but I do know that whenever a country votes in an even vaguely 'socialist' government let alone a communist one the US supplies those opposed to that government with arms and training. I take it you didn't realise that most of the Taliban's weapons used against the Allies were supplied by the American government of the day to fight the communist government (Operation Cyclone from the 'Reagan Doctrine ) and then the Soviets who came to bolster the elected government. It's old news, quite factual so please don't deny it.

And now I shall await with total lack of interest your diatribe against the UK.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Mar 25, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> We used to but Op Herrick showed that they were too vulnerable to ieds and land mines so a new breed of vehicle was designed and used. We have a lot of them because they are still being used in Afghanistan, many people think the troops were pulled out but there's both American and British troops there in sizeable numbers.


What's the new breed of vehicle being used to replace the UK's tanks ?


----------



## jobo (Mar 25, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Did you perhaps miss the point of this thread?


 i thought the point was, '' these strange times ''

i think it strange that the mourning and sympathy for the atrocity that was 9.11 doesnt extend to the massive loss of life and human suffering that resulted from 9 11, ( im laying no blame for this, just stating facts) just coz this happened in the main to human beings who are not american or British if you throw 77 into the mix, even stranger that people are denying it happened at all

nations and im including the UK in this, just so you dont think its  anti american bias, have suddenly developed a real regard for the sanctity of human life, that didn't exist before, it became a threat to them personally,

you cant find a homeless person in Manchester, they have put them all in nice hotels. no one in power cared at all about there well being until they became a threat to the safety of the not homeless.  suddenly they matter, that is '' strange'', '' we dont care if they die of cold or malnutrition, but not the virus, cant have that '' even stranger''


this is a life threat to circa 1 % of the global population, which is a eye watering number, however 10 % of the world population are to malnourished to lead a healthy life and circa 10 million die of starvation a year every year which is its self an eye watering number, a 100 million a decade, about which very few people care tuppence ( infact if they all gave tuppence it could be largely eradicated) because in the main it doesn't effect them at all,,, strange beyond belief that dieing of one thing is considered worse than dieing of another


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 25, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> What's the new breed of vehicle being used to replace the UK's tanks ?



We actually do still have Challenger tanks but they are in storage, they haven't been needed for a long time so are mothballed.
Now it's the Foxhound, Husky, Mastiff, Wolfhound as well as AS90, along with drones, Rapier, M31 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System and Starstreak,  etc.  There are armoured vehicles such as the Scimitar, Jackal, Coyote and CVR(T) such as Spartans.


----------



## Grenadier (Mar 25, 2020)

*Admin's Note:*

Please stay on topic.  Some of you really ought to know better by now.


----------



## jobo (Mar 25, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Brown University; This article was biased from jump. It is laced with journalist misspeak and misleading statements. Such as; how is 310,000 the majority of 800,000? One of many examples. Take some of your free time and research the refugees. Most of them happily left of their own free will a country/area in which they were living with absolutely no hope for a future of any kind, before intervention.
> I have no idea how a mind can get so twisted that it thinks the US created the Islamic State. Twilight Zone stuff.
> One glaring stat that I could find no mention of was that of the 800,000 killed, 64% of this was caused by in-faction fighting. Countrymen fighting countrymen. That seems to be conveniently left out.
> Your country still shows as having a considerable troop count in Afghanistan.
> ...


talking to you about world affair reminds me heavily of a green day album and single from the early 2000s, i didnt really appreciate what the lyrics were getting at till i came on here


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 25, 2020)

jobo said:


> i thought the point was, '' these strange times ''


That's part of the thread title. The point of the thread/initial post seemed to be "Maybe it's a good idea to lighten up on all the bickering, insulting and anger fuelled personal attack bull sheet.", and "Maybe we call all chill a bit and enjoy each other more. Just a thought."


----------



## jobo (Mar 25, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> That's part of the thread title. The point of the thread/initial post seemed to be "Maybe it's a good idea to lighten up on all the bickering, insulting and anger fuelled personal attack bull sheet.", and "Maybe we call all chill a bit and enjoy each other more. Just a thought."


, im chilled and enjoying the conversation with others ??????


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 25, 2020)

jobo said:


> i thought the point was, '' these strange times ''


Maybe read more than the title.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 25, 2020)

jobo said:


> , im chilled and enjoying the conversation with others ??????


I wasn't stating whether you were or weren't. Just clarifying saying how I read the OP.


----------



## jobo (Mar 25, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> I wasn't stating whether you were or weren't. Just clarifying saying how I read the OP.


well that very good of you, but you did seem to be making a point in my direction, so it seemed reasonable to clarify my general state of being chilled


----------



## jobo (Mar 25, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Maybe read more than the title.


arnt you indulging in unkindness towards me ? the very thing that the initial post warned against, perhaps you should reread it ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 25, 2020)

jobo said:


> arnt you indulging in unkindness towards me ? the very thing that the initial post warned against, perhaps you should reread it ?


Once again, you're working hard to have an argument. You're doing that even more than usual lately. I'm done here - I won't contribute to your shenanigans.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 25, 2020)

jobo said:


> well that very good of you, but you did seem to be making a point in my direction, so it seemed reasonable to clarify my general state of being chilled


Gerry may have been, if he quoted you. I was clarifying what you wrote about the start of the thread..I honestly only skimmed the last few pages so I've no idea if your posts seem chilled or not. Sorry if it seemed I was suggesting otherwise.


----------



## jobo (Mar 25, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Once again, you're working hard to have an argument. You're doing that even more than usual lately. I'm done here - I won't contribute to your shenanigans.


now your starting to bicker , as well as just disagreeing with my post for no obvious reason, lets be kind to each other in these most difficult of times, if you cant converse with out showing obvious signs or irritation with an opposing point of view,, then take a little time out to do some deep breathing and then with a bit of luck jovial Gerry will reappear


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## dvcochran (Mar 25, 2020)

jobo said:


> talking to you about world affair reminds me heavily of a green day album and single from the early 2000s, i didnt really appreciate what the lyrics were getting at till i came on here


Yes, you are a brain stew.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 25, 2020)

I cannot get the quote function to work so had to copy/paste.

Jobo said:
you cant find a homeless person in Manchester, they have put them all in nice hotels. no one in power cared at all about there well being until they became a threat to the safety of the not homeless. suddenly they matter, that is '' strange'', '' we dont care if they die of cold or malnutrition, but not the virus, cant have that '' even stranger''

This is quite obvious if you would think about it. 
Many of the people are homeless by their own personal choice. While I do not understand it I respect it. If they want to risk their life and wellbeing and live that way, that is on them. When there is a silent killer like this virus that is spread from person to person it is responsible for local government to be proactive and contain the risk as best as possible. 

I spent 3 years trying to reel in and keep up with a father-in-law that choose that life. It is a very hard thing to do.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Mar 25, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> We actually do still have Challenger tanks but they are in storage, they haven't been needed for a long time so are mothballed.
> Now it's the Foxhound, Husky, Mastiff, Wolfhound as well as AS90, along with drones, Rapier, M31 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System and Starstreak,  etc.  There are armoured vehicles such as the Scimitar, Jackal, Coyote and CVR(T) such as Spartans.


Thank you for the list.  We have the Husky and Coyote here in Canada but we also still have our Leopard tanks as antiquated as they are.


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## Tez3 (Mar 25, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Thank you for the list.  We have the Husky and Coyote here in Canada but we also still have our Leopard tanks as antiquated as they are.



Do you know about BATUS out there in Canada? that's where our tanks are!


----------



## jobo (Mar 25, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, you are a brain stew.


I'm worried about you, you've always been a might odd, but your behaviour over the last days I'm more akin PTSD, , you seeing things that aren't there, not seeing things that are and making the most bizarre comment, like the one above. about the homeless

hopefully  it's just stress related and you will come through the other side, in the mean time, if  you need a supportive ear to help you through, please PM me


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## Yokozuna514 (Mar 25, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Do you know about BATUS out there in Canada? that's where our tanks are!


Yes, I do actually.  It's in Alberta.   CF has a supply base there.


----------



## jobo (Mar 25, 2020)

ive been taking this end of the world thing with a light heart.

but something immense happened today that brought home the seriousness of the situation and its threat to our way of life and everything we hold dear

they have cancelled this seasons final episode  of the walking dead. i mean how bad is this thing if they have had to put the zombie  Apocalypse on hold to,,, well who knows when.... civilisation is truly crumbling about us


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> Usually us older guys can say "this reminds of..."
> But this pandemic thing is different, it doesn't remind me of anything that I can remember.
> And we can't know where it's going from here.
> 
> ...



Hey, @Buka, how are things on the island? Doing Taijiquan again? I am finding doing taijiquan and some qigong are quite helpful these days.


----------



## jobo (Mar 26, 2020)

well ive just read the Orwellian nightmare that is the virus regulations for the uk

at first sight they are pretty chilling, but then you notice the holes in them, for a start they dont apply to the under eighteen, or rather they do, the police can take them home, if they can catch them.

you can go shopping, but there is no restriction on where you can go shopping, so any journey is OK if you pop into the shop 

similarly outside exercise is allowed, but it seems you can travel any distance by what ever means in order to take that exercise, nor have they defined exercise, so more or less any movement will do or non movement if you decided your doing yoga. as long as your on your own or with family its seems unclear if people riding bikes in a group , are committing an offence or not 

the fines however or eye watering, starting at a reasonable £30 but quickly rising to a thousand for subsequent transgressions

ive just looked out of my window at the park and i can see 30 criminal acts in one go

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> well ive just read the Orwellian nightmare that is the virus regulations for the uk
> 
> at first sight they are pretty chilling, but then you notice the holes in them, for a start they dont apply to the under eighteen, or rather they do, the police can take them home, if they can catch them.
> 
> ...



Perhaps instead of looking for loopholes, people could just stay the (censored) home.


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## jobo (Mar 26, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Perhaps instead of looking for loopholes, people could just stay the (censored) home.


well if they wanted to appeal to my good nature they shouldn't have brought out a draconian set of regulations, as they have its my intent to comply with the strict letter of those regs

as it is, since they shut everything down, i only really go out for exercise, dog walking  and shopping and to visit my mum and all of those are allowed, some times i do them all at the same outing,

 thou im appalled that i cant play tennis with someone, how is that a problem when they are right over there ? and how the hell is lone sunbathing a health risk ? il call it yoga if we ever get any sun.

theres an old disabled lady sat on the park bench, wonder if they will issue a grand fine to her ? or will exercise include rest and recuperation and how long do you get ?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> well if they wanted to appeal to my good nature they shouldn't have brought out a draconian set of regulations, as they have its my intent to comply with the strict letter of those regs
> 
> as it is, since they shut everything down, i only really go out for exercise, dog walking  and shopping and to visit my mum and all of those are allowed, some times i do them all at the same outing,
> 
> ...



It will ultimately be discretionary. So technically anything is illegal but only certain things enforced. 

Which is what closes those loopholes


----------



## jobo (Mar 26, 2020)

drop bear said:


> It will ultimately be discretionary. So technically anything is illegal but only certain things enforced.
> 
> Which is what closes those loopholes


 hmm the police raided a pensioners bbq last night in a neighbouring town and kicked the burner over to make them go home. how to build public good will ?

riots coming soon,  in fact i can hear what sounds like a riot in the street behind the house, clearly they arnt taking any notice, this town has a long and proud history of riots  , right back to the perter-loo massacre,  they wont stand for bbq police


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> hmm the police raided a pensioners bbq last night in a neighbouring town and kicked the burner over to make them go home. how to build public good will ?
> 
> riots coming soon,  in fact i can hear what sounds like a riot in the street behind the house, clearly they arnt taking any notice, this town has a long and proud history of riots  , right back to the perter-loo massacre,  they wont stand for bbq police


Yeah, I thought you guys in Manchester were riot capital of the world. Your community is slacking.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2020)

No riots, but at 2000h hours everyone was in their gardens, on their balconies, on their doorsteps and anywhere they could stay isolated but could show their appreciation for our NHS workers. 
Clap for NHS: UK gives mass round of applause to NHS workers for their help during the coronavirus outbreak

No one is talking about riots, what the vast majority are doing is knuckling down and keeping inside. there are those who are volunteering to help, retired medical staff, retired police officers, volunteers to look after those in isolation by doing their shopping or calling them to stop loneliness.
'I'll do anything': coronavirus volunteers sign up to help NHS

People, the sensible ones, the already sick ones, the ones who realise what it means are staying inside. To stop the hospitals being over run by people who need ventilators where there isn't enough, to save the staff from choosing who lives and who dies, that's why we are staying in and not whinging about it.

There is not a medical system in the world that can cope with this pandemic however good they are. The USA is a huge country, bigger than most countries, with many good well equipped hospitals but even they will not be able to cope, there simply isn't enough safety equipment, ventilators and beds to cope with the numbers of patients that the pandemic causes, it will be hell, so we stay in, we don't spread it, we try to keep the level of people needing to go to hospital down as much as is humanly possible, even then the numbers will be high. In the UK the numbers will peak they say in two weeks, the USA will only be a couple of weeks behind us.
Before anyone thinks that's an attack on US healthcare it's not, it's just what you've got coming is enormous, no healthcare system in the world is controlling it, they are all just keeping their head above water if that. It's not about politics though it helps if you have politicians who will listen to the science but that's by the by, it's the people who will make the difference.



The doctors and nursing staff don't want our 'goodwill' they want us to stay the hell indoors, they are running themselves into the ground to care for those in hospital now, but they know it's going to get worse.

You cannot travel any distance for exercise police are now setting up road blocks and checking where you are going.

Those moaning about the restrictions should ask themselves why these are necessary, it's because bloody moronic people are being so totally stupid that we need to have laws to stop them. the fines, which came into law this evening are considerably more than £30.  Those under 18 are the responsibility of their parents and the restrictions do apply to them as well.

There is nothing 'Orwellian' about the restrictions here, it's a sad thing that people cannot do as they are asked ( and do it without bloody whinging) by the people who are trying to save lives.
‘Stay at home’ video plea from healthcare workers goes viral

*Don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution.

And don't be a whinger.*


----------



## Buka (Mar 26, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Hey, @Buka, how are things on the island? Doing Taijiquan again? I am finding doing taijiquan and some qigong are quite helpful these days.



What's up, bro!

I've been doing a little Taijiquan here and there, sometimes for a warm up, sometimes for a workout and sometimes for a cool down. I like it as a cool down a lot, it invigorates me. The bummer is that all the gyms I go to are closed, so I'm working out at home like most everyone else. Usually, I can count on having to deal with disorderly people at the airport to keep me in rock and roll shape, but I'm enjoying a temporary hiatus....other than as a delivery man, which I'll explain in a minute.

I should be doing chair squats and pushups right now.....but instead I'm on here yaking. And you know how much I love to yak.

As for things here on the island.....I couldn't be prouder of everyone I've seen over the last week and a half. People are chill, helping each other, staying six feet away, giving out hand wipes and whatnot, shopping for each other when they go to the store, just really taking things very seriously but at the same time helping everyone that they can.

My landlord, who lives beside me, is a life long farmer, has a degree in Agriculture and he's a pure, Japanese, old-man working machine. When we moved into this rental the realtor told me that the landlord was a mean old man who didn't get along with people. Nothing could be further from the truth, he's terrific. He just doesn't like A-holes. But, I mean, who does?

Anyway, there's about forty avocado trees in his yard. They produce avos pretty much year round. At this time of year he usually donates a ton of them to some of the Buddhist Missions for their annual bazaars. But all have been cancelled. So he trimmed the trees and whole branches of avocados came down. He said for my wife and I to take them all and do what we want with them. At the same time he dug up his carrots. More carrots than I've ever seen in one place before, including large supermarkets. Told us to go nuts.

For the last week and a half my wife and I have been delivering small trash bags full of avocados and carrots to everyone we know....I know, odd combination. I drop off about fifty pounds every other day to the boys down the airport for them and their families, hence the "delivery man" reference from earlier in this post. The avos aren't yet ripe, which is great because they're a long way from spoiling. Avocados are loved out here. Apparently, so are carrots. Who knew carrots were that popular?

Anyway, I'm proud of the folks out here. They're doing right by everyone. As for riots, nah, they don't play that game out here. They tend to use rioters for fishing bait. I'm told that Mahi Mahi and Ahi are particularly fond of that bait.  If you have a discerning palate, sometimes it gives the fish a slight taste of a crumpet or something.




 
Costco yesterday. It was awesome.


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## Buka (Mar 26, 2020)

Everybody gets a bucket, and about a half bucket of carrots.

Everybody should help everybody. Or at the very least use them for bait.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> Anyway, I'm proud of the folks out here. They're doing right by everyone.




Well done them! 

The only person in the UK talking about riots is jobo, literally no one else is.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2020)

@Buka that is awesome, sadly I cannot say the same for NYS. No riots and there is some helping, but nothing even close to what you are talking about. And there has been a lot of hoarding and some folks south of me in the city not caring at all about social distancing.

But I am off to my basement to do some taiji, keep the faith Bro, sounds awesome there on the island. With any luck I'll get out there for a visit in a year or two


----------



## jobo (Mar 26, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> No riots, but at 2000h hours everyone was in their gardens, on their balconies, on their doorsteps and anywhere they could stay isolated but could show their appreciation for our NHS workers.
> Clap for NHS: UK gives mass round of applause to NHS workers for their help during the coronavirus outbreak
> No one is talking about riots, what the vast majority are doing is knuckling down and keeping inside. there are those who are volunteering to help, retired medical staff, retired police officers, volunteers to look after those in isolation by doing their shopping or calling them to stop loneliness.
> 'I'll do anything': coronavirus volunteers sign up to help NHS
> ...


oh there will be riots, possibly coinciding with the food running out, the uk imports the vast majority of its food, the borders are shut, so how much do we have left ? a month, 2 , ? dont know and nobody is telling us, The government and the media are just making calming noises, ''stay inside and it will all be OK, ( it wont)

There are currently cica 60, 000,cases in the UK, that number will double in the next 2 days, then again the next two and again and again, the lock down game to late to prevent that, once we get to a half million, its to late the health service has long ago collapsed., they are reaching saturation in Manchester now

 if we slow it down so it only doubles ever 7 days or even every 14 days its only putting off the inevitable.l  AND there still no food

the lock down and travel restrictions and gatherings are just the controls being put in place to try and quell disorder. the government knows they cant stop it, they are just distracting us with nonsense to keep us on side longer

there a good reason we are allowed out to attend funerals


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## Buka (Mar 26, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> @Buka that is awesome, sadly I cannot say the same for NYS. No riots and there is some helping, but nothing even close to what you are talking about. And there has been a lot of hoarding and some folks south of me in the city not caring at all about social distancing.
> 
> But I am off to my basement to do some taiji, keep the faith Bro, sounds awesome there on the island. With any luck I'll get out there for a visit in a year or two



It's easy here, the population is only 152,000 give or take. 

It's just one more thing that the universe has given me on a silver platter. I wish I could say I deserve it, but I never have. But I sure do appreciate it. Always have, always will. 

And, Xue, when you come, we'll do Taijiquan every single day. 
And I swear I won't eat bacon in front of you, just behind your back.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> It's easy here, the population is only 152,000 give or take.
> 
> It's just one more thing that the universe has given me on a silver platter. I wish I could say I deserve it, but I never have. But I sure do appreciate it. Always have, always will.
> 
> ...


It also helps you guys have a blanket quarantine for 14 days for anyone who flies in to one of the islands.


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## Buka (Mar 26, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> It also helps you guys have a blanket quarantine for 14 days for anyone who flies in to one of the islands.



That took effect at one second past midnight this morning. Thankfully.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> That took effect at one second past midnight this morning. Thankfully.


Im happy for you guys and at the same time bummed my trips being cancelled/postponed indefinitely. I suppose safety takes priority


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> It's easy here, the population is only 152,000 give or take.
> 
> It's just one more thing that the universe has given me on a silver platter. I wish I could say I deserve it, but I never have. But I sure do appreciate it. Always have, always will.
> 
> ...



Looking forward to it....and you can eat all the bacon you want....as a matter of fact you can even have my share of the bacon...


----------



## drop bear (Mar 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> hmm the police raided a pensioners bbq last night in a neighbouring town and kicked the burner over to make them go home. how to build public good will ?
> 
> riots coming soon,  in fact i can hear what sounds like a riot in the street behind the house, clearly they arnt taking any notice, this town has a long and proud history of riots  , right back to the perter-loo massacre,  they wont stand for bbq police



At least I will have something to watch sitting at home then.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> oh there will be riots, possibly coinciding with the food running out, the uk imports the vast majority of its food, the borders are shut, so how much do we have left ? a month, 2 , ? dont know and nobody is telling us, The government and the media are just making calming noises, ''stay inside and it will all be OK, ( it wont)




Well it's very clear you have a great misunderstanding of the situation then. food isn't going to run out, in fact production has been ramped up and you haven't seen the wagons on the road delivering the food. I suppose though the facts would get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

You are enjoying your doomsday predictions I can see but with your lack of understanding you are going to be sadly disappointed. Poor Victor Meldrew, sad and bitter. Never mind I'm sure another theory will come along to engage you soon.


----------



## jobo (Mar 27, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Well it's very clear you have a great misunderstanding of the situation then. food isn't going to run out, in fact production has been ramped up and you haven't seen the wagons on the road delivering the food. I suppose though the facts would get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
> 
> You are enjoying your doomsday predictions I can see but with your lack of understanding you are going to be sadly disappointed. Poor Victor Meldrew, sad and bitter. Never mind I'm sure another theory will come along to engage you soon.


 where do you think the food is coming from ? it takes months to grow things and we dont have the capacity to grow enough for the people who live here.

what ever they have in warehouses is what ever there is, plus the little thats coming through the ports, rationing is already in effect, with the limits on purchase and as i found out when i bought my favourite bangers, in which there seems to be little if any meat


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> where do you think the food is coming from ? it takes months to grow things and we dont have the capacity to grow enough for the people who live here.
> 
> what ever they have in warehouses is what ever there is



You don't think the ports are closed to freight do you? Countries more than ever still need to trade and food is still coming into this country as much as it ever did, many food processors have increased their production, with rare materials coming in the same as usual.  

What you don't seem to appreciate and I suspect never will just how many people are working hard to keep things going while most people are sat on their backsides at home. There are a great many people who cannot isolate because they are needed, it's not just the medical people. My son who is the lab person in charge of quality control for a large food processing company is working along with his colleagues more hours than they should to make sure there is enough food, the artics are coming in on a fast turnaround to be able to come back...fully loaded.. as soon as possible, not just from the UK but Europe and Ireland as well. All the plants in that very large chain are doing the same and I'm positive the other manufacturers are the same. If you don't want to be kind and say it's altruism then you can say the shareholders see a profit in the extra sales, either way they will ensure there's food, it's in no-ones interest for there not to be.

Now I'm sure you are already typing a rebuttal to all this because it amuses you to spread fear and panic online, yes I'm positive this isn't the only place you are posting this rubbish. ( there used to be a word for that behaviour during the war..) but the truth is you are just bumping your gums because you want people to be unhappy, rioting and miserable, misery after all loves company.


----------



## jobo (Mar 27, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> You don't think the ports are closed to freight do you? Countries more than ever still need to trade and food is still coming into this country as much as it ever did, many food processors have increased their production, with rare materials coming in the same as usual.
> 
> What you don't seem to appreciate and I suspect never will just how many people are working hard to keep things going while most people are sat on their backsides at home. There are a great many people who cannot isolate because they are needed, it's not just the medical people. My son who is the lab person in charge of quality control for a large food processing company is working along with his colleagues more hours than they should to make sure there is enough food, the artics are coming in on a fast turnaround to be able to come back...fully loaded.. as soon as possible, not just from the UK but Europe and Ireland as well. All the plants in that very large chain are doing the same and I'm positive the other manufacturers are the same. If you don't want to be kind and say it's altruism then you can say the shareholders see a profit in the extra sales, either way they will ensure there's food, it's in no-ones interest for there not to be.
> 
> Now I'm sure you are already typing a rebuttal to all this because it amuses you to spread fear and panic online, yes I'm positive this isn't the only place you are posting this rubbish. ( there used to be a word for that behaviour during the war..) but the truth is you are just bumping your gums because you want people to be unhappy, rioting and miserable, misery after all loves company.


 we will find out soon enough, the current calm will give rise to anger, it will most certainly start to turn nasty, when groups of youths are dispersed

there were lots of news items only two or three weeks ago, about food shortages, now the news only reports the official government line and the government are drip feeding bad news, there position has change dramatically in two weeks

which makes me suspect that the government have served D notices on the press. D notices allow the government to control exactly what and how the new is reported in situation of national importance, the most important part of a D notice is you cant report you have a D notice

so its impossible to tell, apart from the fact the press all agree with the government and each other, which is a most unusual turn of events

our great leader, the one who is telling us how his measures will protect you, has just been tested positive, if the measures didn't work for him, im not sure how you expect them to work for the rest of us

im sure im not the only talking about civil disorder, the police are currently 11 % down on their manpower due to the virus and that number is very likely to grow considerably and the PTB are considering recalling retired police, they tink they need them for something other than terrorising pensioners having BBQs


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## jobo (Mar 27, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Yeah, I thought you guys in Manchester were riot capital of the world. Your community is slacking.


 we haven't had a notable riot for 9 years, but the last time they laid siege to the police station with the riot police inside, who locked the doors and left the rest of us to our fate


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> we will find out soon enough, the current calm will give rise to anger, it will most certainly start to turn nasty, when groups of youths are dispersed




Victor Meldrew speaks so it must be true.


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## jobo (Mar 27, 2020)

drop bear said:


> At least I will have something to watch sitting at home then.


 well police are using drones to monitor the peak district for the heinous crime of dog walking in a huge open place and then brag about it on twitter, its like they have no awareness at all of how foolish and draconian they appear


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> well police are using drones to monitor the peak district for the heinous crime of dog walking in a huge open place and then brag about it on twitter, its like they have no awareness at all of how foolish and draconian they appear




and it's very clear you don't understand it's lambing season, farmers don't need people with the virus wandering around up on the moors etc while they are out lambing. Footpath fears over spread of coronavirus - Farmers Weekly

Victor, your hatred of the police is showing.


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## jobo (Mar 27, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> and it's very clear you don't understand it's lambing season, farmers don't need people with the virus wandering around up on the moors etc while they are out lambing. Footpath fears over spread of coronavirus - Farmers Weekly
> 
> Victor, your hatred of the police is showing.



there was wide spread condemnation of them over reacting ( so not just me), even the NPCC( association of chief constables) went on record that going for walks in the country side isnt illegal, as it isnt illegal its most certainly over zealous policing, 

civil disorder is the greatest threat to us, not the virus and things like his bring it closer.

ive not thrown bricks at the police since the long hot summer of 1981, so il have to leave to the young to enforce my civil liberties, thats the ones we have left, not the only we had two weeks ago


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> there was wide spread condemnation of them over reacting ( so not just me), even the NPCC( association of chief constables) went on record that going for walks in the country side isnt illegal, as it isnt illegal its most certainly over zealous policing,




Well there's walking alone and there's this 
'Unprecedented' crowds despite virus warnings
Hundreds descend on tourist hotspots despite coronavirus social distancing advice

It's always easy to be a keyboard warrior, and hindsight is wonderful, isn't it Victor. You don't have any decisions to make, no responsibilities, how easy it is to criticise when people are trying to do their best. No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes but at least they are trying to help not just sitting there and whinging.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 27, 2020)

I’ve begun training my wife, son, and sister-in-law in White Crane.  We are stuck at home, doing our best to stay occupied and get some exercise in.  It’s been fun and well received so far.


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## jobo (Mar 27, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Well there's walking alone and there's this
> 'Unprecedented' crowds despite virus warnings
> Hundreds descend on tourist hotspots despite coronavirus social distancing advice
> 
> It's always easy to be a keyboard warrior, and hindsight is wonderful, isn't it Victor. You don't have any decisions to make, no responsibilities, how easy it is to criticise when people are trying to do their best. No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes but at least they are trying to help not just sitting there and whinging.


thats what people who have done a bad job always say '' i was doing my best''

now a waiter who gets your order wrong is one thing, people who have been entrusted with enforcing the law, when they havent taken even a min to find out what the laws says is another

we shouldnt tolerate that level of incompetence


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> thats what people who have done a bad job always say '' i was doing my best''
> 
> now a waiter who gets your order wrong is one thing, people who have been entrusted with enforcing the law, when they havent taken even a min to find out what the laws says is another
> 
> we shouldnt tolerate that level of incompetence




As if you know better , because you have demonstrated plenty of times you really don't.


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## drop bear (Mar 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> well police are using drones to monitor the peak district for the heinous crime of dog walking in a huge open place and then brag about it on twitter, its like they have no awareness at all of how foolish and draconian they appear



Yeah. Look I wouldn't take that.

You should rise up. 

And then youtube it.


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Look I wouldn't take that.
> 
> You should rise up.
> 
> And then youtube it.




it will look like this.


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## Kyokushin_1054 (Mar 27, 2020)

What new things is everyone trying during this time? 

I was able to take a little dive into building my YouTube channel for lesson videos, get fight ready for after this is over and read a lot of interesting martial arts literature and publications. Furthermore, I have also started gymnastics at home to try some new cool flips and skills that keep me entertained.


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## jobo (Mar 28, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Look I wouldn't take that.
> 
> You should rise up.
> 
> And then youtube it.


 as a nation we are far to tolerant of abuse of power and far to compliant to that abuse.

we threw away many millions of lives to fight for our freedom, now we have given our freedom( and economic futures) away to save a few thousand, mostly old people, lives, who will die soon anyway, and will probably die despite these measures

 there is no cost/benefit to this nonsense at all.

 isolate the at risk population( which will be considerably cheaper than shutting the whole country down and a lot more effective)and leave the rest of us the hell alone, there is nothing at all stopping the hysterical and hypochondriacs from self isolating, if they want to and no logic at all in making the rest of us join them

The BBQ police have been out again upsetting families who have isolated themselves in ''remote'' locations near pleasant spots, coz ,,, well for no logical reason at all, but people arnt allowed to have fun any more, i swear that they will be handing out fines for smiling soon

at least if rioting does start they will be to busy, to enforce petty pointless rules and totally oblivious to the fact that their enforcement of petty rules contributed to the disorder


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## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2020)

jobo said:


> as a nation we are far to tolerant of abuse of power and far to compliant to that abuse.
> 
> we threw away many millions of lives to fight for our freedom, now we have given our freedom( and economic futures) away to save a few thousand, mostly old people, lives, who will die soon anyway, and will probably die despite these measures
> 
> ...




Oh  dear, poor Victor, whinging because he doesn't understand the situation and is stuck in his Marxist mindset. If moaning was a martial arts he'd be the 15th Dan Grandmaster of it.

 "There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know. "


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## jobo (Mar 28, 2020)

jobo said:


> as a nation we are far to tolerant of abuse of power and far to compliant to that abuse.
> 
> we threw away many millions of lives to fight for our freedom, now we have given our freedom( and economic futures) away to save a few thousand, mostly old people, lives, who will die soon anyway, and will probably die despite these measures
> 
> ...


here is a article quoting the head of the red cross warning that ''rioting is imminent in European cities

Coronavirus riots to erupt 'at any moment' as Red Cross warns cities face 'social bomb'

ive seen another saying its a real risk in Californian, but then its always imminent in a LA
so not just me it seems thinking that this is a likelihood


----------



## jobo (Mar 28, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Oh  dear, poor Victor, whinging because he doesn't understand the situation and is stuck in his Marxist mindset. If moaning was a martial arts he'd be the 15th Dan Grandmaster of it.
> 
> "There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know. "


thats not really a cogent argument,  the blindness to the likely outcome seems to be affecting you,

but anyway a are we having a small wager paid to the charity of your choice, that serious disorder breaks out before the end of April ?


----------



## jobo (Mar 28, 2020)

jobo said:


> here is a article quoting the head of the red cross warning that ''rioting is imminent in European cities
> 
> Coronavirus riots to erupt 'at any moment' as Red Cross warns cities face 'social bomb'
> 
> ...


 and here is another warning that food production can only be maintained for a few weeks and food riots are a real risk 

Supermarkets call for police protection amid fears of rioting


----------



## jobo (Mar 28, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Oh  dear, poor Victor, whinging because he doesn't understand the situation and is stuck in his Marxist mindset. If moaning was a martial arts he'd be the 15th Dan Grandmaster of it.
> 
> "There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know. "


 and its not marx im taking my philosophy from its Jean-Jacques Rousseau and his concept of a social contract. that is people give up freedoms in reward for the benefits of being ruled, that is as long as most people see a personal benefit from society, in return for their freedom to self govern you have stable government and society. 

as soon as that balance is tipped to far ie the freedoms are significantly reduced and or the benefits are reduced considerably, then the social contract is broken and as a moral right people start to rebel,

 which general starts with rioting, if enough people feel badly enough about the situation then the situation become unstable and either governments calapse or they resort to martial law to cling on to power

though to quote marx, ''religion is the opium of the people'', if you can sell people an alternate reality, then they become blind to the erosion of freedom,they endure,

 though religion has been largely replaced in the modern world, by TV, sport, recreational drugs and consumerism, as the main way of distracting people, 

now, two of those distractions have gone. pubs have shut and alcohol in short supply and the shut down clearly effect the supply of illegal drugs and TV shows are stopping being filmed. 

that to a great extent only leaves reality and people have a great deal of time to consider that reality, that never ends well


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2020)




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## dvcochran (Mar 28, 2020)

jobo said:


> and here is another warning that food production can only be maintained for a few weeks and food riots are a real risk
> 
> Supermarkets call for police protection amid fears of rioting


Amazing thing about search engines; a person can find ANYTHING they are looking for on them.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Amazing thing about search engines; a person can find ANYTHING they are looking for on them.



The link jobo used is the Telegraph, owned by the Barclay Brothers, they have no integrity or morals. they will manipulate the 'news' if it suits them.   Who are the Barclay brothers?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 28, 2020)

jobo said:


> as a nation we are far to tolerant of abuse of power and far to compliant to that abuse.
> 
> we threw away many millions of lives to fight for our freedom, now we have given our freedom( and economic futures) away to save a few thousand, mostly old people, lives, who will die soon anyway, and will probably die despite these measures
> 
> ...



Rioting would be a pain in the butt for everyone. As it would take resources and opportunitys away from solving this coronavirus problem and put it in to riot control.

I mean If there is a food shortage and a riot closes down a supermarket or blocks an important road. Then that will create food shortages. 

I am hoping once people get used to this they will adapt and everything will get a little smoother.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 28, 2020)

In these strange times they are talking about quarantining NYS, NJ and part of Connecticut.... I live in NYS....yippee


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 29, 2020)

jobo said:


> as a nation we are far to tolerant of abuse of power and far to compliant to that abuse.
> 
> we threw away many millions of lives to fight for our freedom, now we have given our freedom( and economic futures) away to save a few thousand, mostly old people, lives, who will die soon anyway, and will probably die despite these measures
> 
> ...


There's actually no definitive black and white solution to this, and politicians and alike are absolutely scrambling in this unknown territory. And it truly is unknown territory.

See the thing is, you may say certain people aren't at risk, but many many people can carry the coronavirus without having any of the symptoms. It's this which is a massive issue as well. To pass it on, and unknowingly kill someone as a result.. well people are taking this risk because their focus is totally narcissistic.

There is no cut and paste solution, and to be honest there isn't really a total win in any of them. There are just so...... SO many variables involved that it just boggles the mind. I truly feel for the people who run our countries, and have no ill will toward them and their decisions.


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 29, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Rioting would be a pain in the butt for everyone. As it would take resources and opportunitys away from solving this coronavirus problem and put it in to riot control.
> 
> I mean If there is a food shortage and a riot closes down a supermarket or blocks an important road. Then that will create food shortages.
> 
> I am hoping once people get used to this they will adapt and everything will get a little smoother.


Yeah, and that's really, truly the name of the game here, adaption. Willingness to adapt and have a flexible mindset. Any rigidity will be shaken up thoroughly...


----------



## jobo (Mar 29, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Amazing thing about search engines; a person can find ANYTHING they are looking for on them.


did you read the link


_Simon_ said:


> There's actually no definitive black and white solution to this, and politicians and alike are absolutely scrambling in this unknown territory. And it truly is unknown territory.
> 
> See the thing is, you may say certain people aren't at risk, but many many people can carry the coronavirus without having any of the symptoms. It's this which is a massive issue as well. To pass it on, and unknowingly kill someone as a result.. well people are taking this risk because their focus is totally narcissistic.
> 
> There is no cut and paste solution, and to be honest there isn't really a total win in any of them. There are just so...... SO many variables involved that it just boggles the mind. I truly feel for the people who run our countries, and have no ill will toward them and their decisions.


 all that is based on a false premise,

our govenments are lieing to us or at least i suspect they are, what i do know is the UK govenment is badly miss leading it populas

last week they said that this would be over in a few weeks with the mimumum of deaths, as of today they have alter that projection to at LEAST 20,000 deaths and a lock down of a '' significant'' period of time, they are just drip feeding bad news to control the public reaction, i have no doubt at all that the projected deaths toll will rise to at least 10 times that number and '' significant'' will turn into '' very significant'' over the next few weeks

the reasons being, that the measures being take are no where near capable of stopping this, it will contiue to spread, maybe at a slower rate or maybe not. unless you can genuably self issolate, that is you have a bunker stocked with a years food, then there is an extremly high probility that you will catch this and that you spread it, when you go to the shop or what have you. slowing it down doesnt reduce the number of deaths it just spreads them out a bit

the real problem is the asymptomatic sufferes, these are the people serving you in the shop, doing your dental work or delivering your letters, those currently most at risk are those doing essencial work, what happens to the essencial work when they are to sick to do it ? there will be only the asymptomatic people left


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 29, 2020)

jobo said:


> did you read the link
> 
> all that is based on a false premise,
> 
> ...


I am truly worried about you Jobo. This will all work itself out. 
May I suggest you search for some Good  & Positive information to brighten your spirits?


----------



## jobo (Mar 29, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I am truly worried about you Jobo. This will all work itself out.
> May I suggest you search for some Good  & Positive information to brighten your spirits?


 in all seriousness, whats your projection for '' working its self out '' your an engineer you can read data sheets and calculate probalities, tell me 

as a said above the govenment public projection of deaths keeps rising and the lengh of the lock down keeps increasing, if we take them at their word, which would be foolish in the extreme, but if we did, then that confined too the house for ,,, well what does '' significant mean ? 6 months 12 months

the projected death toll from other countries is 1% that an awful lot of people out of a population of 70 million, if and its a big IF the measure reduce that to a tenth, which is exteremly optomisic, then thats still an awful lot of people

Im not i the slightest worried about getting it, not a bit, y chances of dieing are on par with  mreasonable l0ttery win

so yes, it will work its self out, but when and at what costs


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 29, 2020)

jobo said:


> in all seriousness, whats your projection for '' working its self out ''
> 
> as a said above the govenment public projection of deaths keeps rising and the lengh of the lock down keeps increasing, if we take them at their word, which would be foolish in the extreme, but if we did, then that confined too the house for ,,, well what does '' significant mean ? 6 months 12 months
> 
> ...


I fully believe this is a natural occurrence that we cannot do a whole lot about. We all know there have been several pandemics over the centuries. In reality, this one pales in comparison to most of them. 
I just read an AP article that said the US had 80,000 flu related deaths in 2017. That is just from the flu, not all winter time related deaths. This is a point of emphasis to highlight how much the press is keeping the fires flamed and encouraging people to freak about this winter time illness season. Pure fear mongering.

2 weeks here. As of right now non-essential businesses such as restaurants can go back to work here. It will be so sad to see how many small businesses will not come back from this. You can say what you want but I fully believe there is a Big political element to this.


----------



## jobo (Mar 29, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I fully believe this is a natural occurrence that we cannot do a whole lot about. We all know there have been several pandemics over the centuries. In reality, this one pales in comparison to most of them.
> I just read an AP article that said the US had 80,000 flu related deaths in 2017. That is just from the flu, not all winter time related deaths. This is a point of emphasis to highlight how much the press is keeping the fires flamed and encouraging people to freak about this winter time illness season. Pure fear mongering.
> 
> 2 weeks here. As of right now non-essential businesses such as restaurants can go back to work here. It will be so sad to see how many small businesses will not come back from this. You can say what you want but I fully believe there is a Big political element to this.


 im not disagreeing, there is an eliment of polictions not wanting to be blamed

but then you needs to ask a question if your govenments actions which are complely at odds with most of the rest of the world are the correct ones, amercia is currently the hot spot of the virus

it does seem to have a death toll considerably higher than the flu, 1% of 300, million is a lot more than 80,000

india not kown for its public health policies have locked down the whole country, esentiaaly leaving people to starve in ptrefrance to the desease, so is the politics in question the fact that its an election year and the economy down the toilet being more of a pressing issue for campign contributors than the death toll ?, and with the death toll being largely inevatable anyway, that makes sound buiness sence

where as the polictics in this country, that would be largly election suicide


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 29, 2020)

jobo said:


> did you read the link
> 
> all that is based on a false premise,
> 
> ...



Don't know what I said was based on a false premise...

The government are probably just trying to make the most to help the situation rather than outright lying. Maybe they are, but maybe they aren't. The situation is changing so rapidly, I'm not surprised that what was said last week is now no longer valid at all. We cannot predict nor control it like we may have thought.

Slowing it down helps the medical system which is being completely and utterly beyond overtaxed. It also buys time to find a cure or vaccine of sorts. So it very well may save many, many, MANY lives.


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## Tez3 (Mar 29, 2020)

jobo said:


> our govenments are lieing to us or at least i suspect they are, what i do know is the UK govenment is badly miss leading it populas




What you assume is conspiracies etc is actually ineptitude, bureaucracy and incompetence. 
Members of Parliament are not actually experts in running a country, they come from different backgrounds, some have had jobs others not, there is nothing that prepares even the most honest and sensible person for the business of government.  However the MPs do have their party's agenda to put forward and they try to do this through the Civil Servants who work for them in their various departments, these are good at running the departments as such but the Ministers when appointed want to change everything. Each Minister that comes in changes things, even when the succeeding Minister is the same party. The Ministers if they are clever, most are not, will listen to their senior Civil Servants ( as junior military officers should listen to their SNCOs) and things run well, of course these nice shiny new Ministers don't listen and they meddle, they change and they are for the most part incompetent. Ministers also do not listen to other Ministers, being always keen to suck up the Prime Minister in the hope of getting a better job or the best job, replacing the Prime Minister. This is why you get mixed messages, different messages, and most often little or no action. The politicians aren't trying to  con us, or try to 'enslave' the people they are far too engaged in looking after their careers to actually try to understand what they are supposed to be doing. As I said ineptitude and incompetence.

They really don't understand the game of consequences they play when they change something, how it changes everything else, if they stop one action, they need to replace it, but that has ramifications on something else so if you sort that there's problems with yet another issue, then another and another ad infinitum,  it's a madness that just gets bigger and bigger. Oh and there's another thing, politicians cannot keep secrets, ever. It always comes out in the end.


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## jobo (Mar 29, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Don't know what I said was based on a false premise...
> 
> The government are probably just trying to make the most to help the situation rather than outright lying. Maybe they are, but maybe they aren't. The situation is changing so rapidly, I'm not surprised that what was said last week is now no longer valid at all. We cannot predict nor control it like we may have thought.
> 
> Slowing it down helps the medical system which is being completely and utterly beyond overtaxed. It also buys time to find a cure or vaccine of sorts. So it very well may save many, many, MANY lives.


 well its a false premise that you issolating yourself is going to make the slightest differance to the death toll. common sence says it should, but the data doesnt support it, its an equally false premise that medical intervention can save those who are otherwise likely to die, and an even more false premise that there is a vacine in the works that will save many lives, by the time a vacine appears, there will be only those with aquired imunity left to give it to


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## jobo (Mar 29, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> What you assume is conspiracies etc is actually ineptitude, bureaucracy and incompetence.
> Members of Parliament are not actually experts in running a country, they come from different backgrounds, some have had jobs others not, there is nothing that prepares even the most honest and sensible person for the business of government.  However the MPs do have their party's agenda to put forward and they try to do this through the Civil Servants who work for them in their various departments, these are good at running the departments as such but the Ministers when appointed want to change everything. Each Minister that comes in changes things, even when the succeeding Minister is the same party. The Ministers if they are clever, most are not, will listen to their senior Civil Servants ( as junior military officers should listen to their SNCOs) and things run well, of course these nice shiny new Ministers don't listen and they meddle, they change and they are for the most part incompetent. Ministers also do not listen to other Ministers, being always keen to suck up the Prime Minister in the hope of getting a better job or the best job, replacing the Prime Minister. This is why you get mixed messages, different messages, and most often little or no action. The politicians aren't trying to  con us, or try to 'enslave' the people they are far too engaged in looking after their careers to actually try to understand what they are supposed to be doing. As I said ineptitude and incompetence.
> 
> They really don't understand the game of consequences they play when they change something, how it changes everything else, if they stop one action, they need to replace it, but that has ramifications on something else so if you sort that there's problems with yet another issue, then another and another ad infinitum,  it's a madness that just gets bigger and bigger. Oh and there's another thing, politicians cannot keep secrets, ever. It always comes out in the end.


 its not a comspiracy its the well reseached and documented technuque of news/exspectation managment and its plain to see, if they give the bad news all in one go, people will freak out, so they are drip feeding it, like making the water a little hotter so you dont notice till it boils you

the alternative is that they are just making stuff up as they go a long and havent got a clue whats happening, and that is even more worrying than the '' conspiracy'' which at least means they have some sort of plan

and as the govenment is being efectly run by domic cummings, who is extremly clever and not at all imcompetent im going with the first


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## Tez3 (Mar 29, 2020)

jobo said:


> its not a comspiracy its the well reseached and documented technuque of news/exspectation managment and its plain to see, if they give the bad news all in one go, people will freak out, so they are drip feeding it, like making the water a little hotter so you dont notice till it boils you
> 
> the alternative is that they are just making stuff up as they go a long and havent got a clue whats happening, and that is even more worrying than the '' conspiracy'' which at least means they have some sort of plan
> 
> and as the govenment is being efectly run by domic cummings, who is extremly clever and not at all imcompetent im going with the first




It's very clear you have never worked in a government ministry.


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## jobo (Mar 29, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> It's very clear you have never worked in a government ministry.



z i spent the first half of working life working in local govenment an im am accutly aware of the technuques and short commings  of govenment, so which MINESTRY have you worked in , being in the forces doesnt count as working IN a minestry any more than being a bin man means you work in local govenment, your not involved in govening only clearing up the mess


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## dvcochran (Mar 29, 2020)

jobo said:


> in all seriousness, whats your projection for '' working its self out '' your an engineer you can read data sheets and calculate probalities, tell me
> 
> as a said above the govenment public projection of deaths keeps rising and the lengh of the lock down keeps increasing, if we take them at their word, which would be foolish in the extreme, but if we did, then that confined too the house for ,,, well what does '' significant mean ? 6 months 12 months
> 
> ...


This is from a site named Coronavirus Update (Live): 684,676 Cases and 32,180 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Outbreak - Worldometer so I do not know how accurate it is but it jives with the numbers I have seen on the network channels:
*Coronavirus Cases:*
684,384
*Deaths:*
32,180

You can say Spain is the anomaly. Just under 78,797 cases with 546 deaths. With the exception of 4 countries nearly all other deaths are in the single digit.

Death is a part of all our lives. A person should not get caught up in the hype and just worry about the immediate world around them first. The best we can do is serve our fellow man and live life. I do not want to live a walking death before I die.


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## Tez3 (Mar 29, 2020)

jobo said:


> z i spent the first half of working life working in local govenment an im am accutly aware of the technuques and short commings  of govenment, so which MINESTRY have you worked in , being in the forces doesnt count as working IN a minestry any more than being a bin man means you work in local govenment, your not involved in govening only clearing up the mess




I don't think anyone has ever worked in a 'minestry' lol, when you're upset your spelling really goes to hell lol.

I'm not talking about local government, where all the councillors are amateurs anyway.

Ah Mr Meldrew, you are getting progressively grumpier and grumpier, it's the consequence of being so bloody minded I suppose.


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## jobo (Mar 29, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> This is from a site named Coronavirus Update (Live): 684,676 Cases and 32,180 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Outbreak - Worldometer so I do not know how accurate it is but it jives with the numbers I have seen on the network channels:
> *Coronavirus Cases:*
> 684,384
> *Deaths:*
> ...


by signle didgit do you mean less than 10, but coz that clearly not the case i that link you gave, i think your looking at the new deaths ie those in the last 24 hours ?

the trend for both new infections and deaths is steeply up, there no reason at all to suppose that trend will not continue upwards, a weekago or so, they anounced the death of the fist couple in the uk ingreat detail, now they are reporting them by the several hundred,per day theres no reason to suppose that  it wont follow the progresion and be several thousand a day by this time next week


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## dvcochran (Mar 29, 2020)

jobo said:


> by signle didgit do you mean less than 10, but coz that clearly not the case i that link you gave, i think your looking at the new deaths ie those in the last 24 hours ?
> 
> the trend for both new infections and deaths is steeply up, there no reason at all to suppose that trend will not continue upwards, a weekago or so, they anounced the death of the fist couple in the uk ingreat detail, now they are reporting them by the several hundred,per day theres no reason to suppose that  it wont follow the progresion and be several thousand a day by this time next week


Did you even look at the link. It is quite straightforward.


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## jobo (Mar 29, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Did you even look at the link. It is quite straightforward.


yes and its not as you describe,


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## jobo (Mar 29, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I fully believe this is a natural occurrence that we cannot do a whole lot about. We all know there have been several pandemics over the centuries. In reality, this one pales in comparison to most of them.
> I just read an AP article that said the US had 80,000 flu related deaths in 2017. That is just from the flu, not all winter time related deaths. This is a point of emphasis to highlight how much the press is keeping the fires flamed and encouraging people to freak about this winter time illness season. Pure fear mongering.
> 
> 2 weeks here. As of right now non-essential businesses such as restaurants can go back to work here. It will be so sad to see how many small businesses will not come back from this. You can say what you want but I fully believe there is a Big political element to this.


well your projection was wrong, your government has moved it back to the end of April, where it will most probably slip again as the medical officer is warning of 200,000 US deaths, which its self looks like a serious under estimate, so it seems your government are drip feeding the bad news as well


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## dvcochran (Mar 29, 2020)

jobo said:


> well your projection was wrong, your government has moved it back to the end of April, where it will most probably slip again as the medical officer is warning of 200,000 US deaths, which its self looks like a serious under estimate, so it seems your government are drip feeding the bad news as well


Understandably, you are wrong again based on media bias. The report said the models, which were candidly stated to be built on uncertain data, estimated 100,000 to possibly 200,000 deaths. We are not on any kind of lockdown. It is rather close to business as usual in many parts of our country and the world. 
Pour something in your glass because it is always more than 1/2 empty. Very tiring and unbecoming for this site at large.


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## _Simon_ (Mar 29, 2020)

jobo said:


> well its a false premise that you issolating yourself is going to make the slightest differance to the death toll. common sence says it should, but the data doesnt support it, its an equally false premise that medical intervention can save those who are otherwise likely to die, and an even more false premise that there is a vacine in the works that will save many lives, by the time a vacine appears, there will be only those with aquired imunity left to give it to



Sorry, it's very hard to communicate with that pessimistic and cynical attitude. None of those points make any sense at all..

That's probably the data because people aren't bloody keeping isolated. Especially here, people are just not listening and still going out and about on casual outings. Of course isolation can help not spread it as fast. Data and "numbers" simply don't tell everything.

Of course medical intervention can't save those who are going to die. That doesn't mean it can't save those who are likely to die. Where you pulled that from...

So they're not gonna have the vaccine in time to help anyone? That's what you're saying? That's what you're prophecising?

............


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 30, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> So they're not gonna have the vaccine in time to help anyone? That's what you're saying? That's what you're prophecising?
> 
> ............



Apparently the birth rate is zero in joboworld...


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## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Pour something in your glass because it is always more than 1/2 empty. Very tiring and unbecoming for this site at large.



He's a Nihilist though he pretends he's something else, he hates all authorities especially the police because they are 'all corrupt', he hates the military as well, he believes that he and he alone has 'the truth' therefore looks down on us all as being ignorant. it's also worth remembering that Rousseau became increasing mentally unstable, he claimed that a single idea was at the centre of his world view with  human beings being good by nature but are made corrupt by society I imagine chimes with jobo's view of the world but isn't a view that holds up because as the argument goes if all humans beings are good how could evil take hold? Jobo says he's not a Marxist but there are many who say Rousseau influenced the harsher aspects of the French revolution and then Marxism.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It is rather close to business as usual in many parts of our country and the world.


It is not business as usual for many people that I know. A couple people own business; a salon, an eyebrow threading place, a couple restaurants. They still have to pay commercial rent, while not earning income. Which is fine for a month or two, but if it goes beyond that, they will be in deep trouble. Then I've also got friends that are waiters/waitresses/bartenders who may or may not be getting paid basic wages, but definitely aren't getting tips. Then I've got friends who are in construction or landscaping that aren't making any money whatsoever. And before you mention again how they should be prepared with an emergency fund-conventional wisdom is approximately 3 months salary saved. If they make 50k a year, so they would ideally have 12k saved up for emergencies. Which, depending on their circumstances, will last them 2-5 months. And that's hoping another emergency like health problems don't come up. 

Then there are other people in the hospital where I work (for reference there were at least 10 known positive COVID-19 patient's in my hallway alone today, not including those who are waiting for tests), that were taking care of elderly family members, who now are staying with friends so they don't get those family members sick. Personally I'm stuck in my basement during this time, since my grandmother just got out of the hospital and I'm not risking anything with her. 

So yeah, at least in NY, it's not business as usual, and I suspect the rest of the country is not far behind. If it's business as usual for you, I'm genuinely happy for you. But don't take that for granted and assume it's the same for everyone. Be grateful, hope it stays that way, and thank God (or whatever you believe in) that you're not being impacted by all this.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 30, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> It is not business as usual for many people that I know. A couple people own business; a salon, an eyebrow threading place, a couple restaurants. They still have to pay commercial rent, while not earning income. Which is fine for a month or two, but if it goes beyond that, they will be in deep trouble. Then I've also got friends that are waiters/waitresses/bartenders who may or may not be getting paid basic wages, but definitely aren't getting tips. Then I've got friends who are in construction or landscaping that aren't making any money whatsoever. And before you mention again how they should be prepared with an emergency fund-conventional wisdom is approximately 3 months salary saved. If they make 50k a year, so they would ideally have 12k saved up for emergencies. Which, depending on their circumstances, will last them 2-5 months. And that's hoping another emergency like health problems don't come up.
> 
> Then there are other people in the hospital where I work (for reference there were at least 10 known positive COVID-19 patient's in my hallway alone today, not including those who are waiting for tests), that were taking care of elderly family members, who now are staying with friends so they don't get those family members sick. Personally I'm stuck in my basement during this time, since my grandmother just got out of the hospital and I'm not risking anything with her.
> 
> So yeah, at least in NY, it's not business as usual, and I suspect the rest of the country is not far behind. If it's business as usual for you, I'm genuinely happy for you. But don't take that for granted and assume it's the same for everyone. Be grateful, hope it stays that way, and thank God (or whatever you believe in) that you're not being impacted by all this.


@dvcochran according to this, the unemployment number has spiked from 250k people to 3.3million between march 14th and march 21st. And was on an upward trajectory from there.


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## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> It is not business as usual for many people that I know. A couple people own business; a salon, an eyebrow threading place, a couple restaurants. They still have to pay commercial rent, while not earning income. Which is fine for a month or two, but if it goes beyond that, they will be in deep trouble. Then I've also got friends that are waiters/waitresses/bartenders who may or may not be getting paid basic wages, but definitely aren't getting tips. Then I've got friends who are in construction or landscaping that aren't making any money whatsoever. And before you mention again how they should be prepared with an emergency fund-conventional wisdom is approximately 3 months salary saved. If they make 50k a year, so they would ideally have 12k saved up for emergencies. Which, depending on their circumstances, will last them 2-5 months. And that's hoping another emergency like health problems don't come up.
> 
> Then there are other people in the hospital where I work (for reference there were at least 10 known positive COVID-19 patient's in my hallway alone today, not including those who are waiting for tests), that were taking care of elderly family members, who now are staying with friends so they don't get those family members sick. Personally I'm stuck in my basement during this time, since my grandmother just got out of the hospital and I'm not risking anything with her.
> 
> So yeah, at least in NY, it's not business as usual, and I suspect the rest of the country is not far behind. If it's business as usual for you, I'm genuinely happy for you. But don't take that for granted and assume it's the same for everyone. Be grateful, hope it stays that way, and thank God (or whatever you believe in) that you're not being impacted by all this.



I want to thank all the people working the hospitals in any capacity. They are warriors on the front line of this thing. 

I believe I did mention restaurants and certain parts of the country (I did not want to single any area out). I do understand New York is in a tough spot. With the population density there (67,000) vs. the national average (9,000), one can see that NY was a ticking time bomb.  
I also have friends who work(ed) in non-essential jobs that are going through tough times. I know several of my friends have started working as drivers for the various delivery services who are likely making a killing right now.  

The main point of my post with our friend across the pond was that we do Not need to reinforce fear mongering. Global news has a way of painting the worst picture possible on most things.

In our area most all people in a skilled trade (carpenter, plumber, electrician, etc...) are working. I see a lot of landscapers mowing grass as well (it is spring flush here so the grass is really growing). A lot of our factories are shut down and that does amount to a considerable amount of people not working. Every store I have been to is staffed.

As far as savings and an emergency fund, the effects of this pandemic on daily income should cause people to see the need for one. For some who did have an emergency fund may find it had not been funded enough. No, we can never fully predict what financial hits we may take in the future but something is better than nothing. 

So what do you suggest we do? Set back and cry for the government to take care of us? This kind of thinking comes with a steep price that I for one am not willing to pay. Just because we may be out of our comfort zone, out our normal, from a silent enemy how is this anyone's fault? 

I commend our government. They are doing everything possible with a tough enemy like we have never faced before. It is All new territory. It is much better that information be disseminated as best as possible before putting out to the pubic.

FWIW, I do thank God everyday, for all things good and bad. I wish more people would reach out for His strength and comfort.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> As far as savings and an emergency fund, the effects of this pandemic on daily income should cause people to see the need for one. For some who did have an emergency fund may find it had not been funded enough. No, we can never fully predict what financial hits we may take in the future but something is better than nothing.



It's important to remember that having this buffer is only possible if you're making enough to have anything extra after paying for little trivial things like a roof and food. A large portion of the US can't safe because they literally would have to choose between saving or eating.



> I commend our government.



You really shouldn't.



> They are doing everything possible with a tough enemy like we have never faced before. It is All new territory. It is much better that information be disseminated as best as possible before putting out to the pubic.



The "information" coming out of Washington is factually incorrect, ignores the input of subject experts, and is a fine example of the sort of "magical thinking" young children engage in. According to that info, we've already beaten the pandemic at least twice, hospitals are hording ventilators, there is no shortage of PPE, it's just that staff are stealing it, the economy is more important than actual lives, a 2 TRILLION dollar bailout for businesses is fine, but a mere 1 billion for ventilators (you know, to actually save people) is too much, and we've gone from "the buck stops here" to "I take no responsibility".
Perhaps the word you're looking for is "condemn".


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## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I want to thank all the people working the hospitals in any capacity. They are warriors on the front line of this thing.
> 
> I believe I did mention restaurants and certain parts of the country (I did not want to single any area out). I do understand New York is in a tough spot. With the population density there (67,000) vs. the national average (9,000), one can see that NY was a ticking time bomb.
> I also have friends who work(ed) in non-essential jobs that are going through tough times. I know several of my friends have started working as drivers for the various delivery services who are likely making a killing right now.
> ...


 well if a government isnt going to take care of its population in times of extreme crisis, then it asks the fundamental question of why bother having a government at all ? it does owe a duty of care to its citizens


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## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> He's a Nihilist though he pretends he's something else, he hates all authorities especially the police because they are 'all corrupt', he hates the military as well, he believes that he and he alone has 'the truth' therefore looks down on us all as being ignorant. it's also worth remembering that Rousseau became increasing mentally unstable, he claimed that a single idea was at the centre of his world view with  human beings being good by nature but are made corrupt by society I imagine chimes with jobo's view of the world but isn't a view that holds up because as the argument goes if all humans beings are good how could evil take hold? Jobo says he's not a Marxist but there are many who say Rousseau influenced the harsher aspects of the French revolution and then Marxism.


 im neither a Marxist or a  Nihilist, but your using these terms as insults, to dismiss another point of review as irrelevant when they are simple statements of fact

Rousseau also influenced the universal declaration of human rights, which may be your problem as nether the police or the armed forces are big fans of inalienable human rights, as it stops them from killing torturing or general beating people, which is largely the reason many of them joined in the first place

in the latest bizarre twist in civil liberty the police are try to stop the sale of Easter eggs, coz '' no fun allowed '' its not surprising that a lot of people have a reluctance to accept the police as sensible proportionate body with the welfare of the populass at heart


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## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Set back and cry for the government to take care of us?




That's what you pay them to do, it's not socialism, it's the fact that you employ them to do exactly that. If they don't take care of you why are you voting for them and paying their salaries?  They are your servants, they aren't rulers, they are supposed to do what you want them to do.


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## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> im neither a Marxist or a  Nihilist, but your using these terms as insults, to dismiss another point of review as irrelevant when they are simple statements of fact
> 
> Rousseau also influenced the universal declaration of human rights, which may be your problem as nether the police or the armed forces are big fans of inalienable human rights, as it stops them from killing torturing or general beating people, which is largely the reason many of them joined in the first place




Actually I wasn't using them as insults the fact you think so is telling. 

Your take on the military and police has now become boring  as well as very wrong but then you will take their help while calling them behind their backs.


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## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Actually I wasn't using them as insults the fact you think so is telling.
> 
> Your take on the military and police has now become boring  as well as very wrong but then you will take their help while calling them behind their backs.


 i do pay quite heavily for their services, its only fare that i can use the service whilst complaining that the service wasn't at all good


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## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> i do pay quite heavily for their services, its only fare that i can use the service whilst complaining that the service wasn't at all good




Victor Meldrew, as I said.


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## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Apparently the birth rate is zero in joboworld...





Tez3 said:


> That's what you pay them to do, it's not socialism, it's the facunt that you employ them to do exactly that. If they don't take care of you why are you voting for them and paying their salaries?  They are your servants, they aren't rulers, they are supposed to do what you want them to do.



I fully agree with this concept. Way too many people in the role have a hard time with the term 'servant'.
Like everyone else, I pay a Lot in taxes. This comes with expectations like good leadership, infrastructure, sanitation, economy, etc.... Like you said they are not rulers, but they are our leaders and should be treated as such. I believe they (all nations leaders) are doing the best they can. Just like the rest of us should be.
This thing is moving so fast it has to be incredibly difficult to fully understand what our trajectory should be. It speaks loudly to just how little control we have over mother nature. She is a fickle ***** right now.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> well if a government isnt going to take care of its population in times of extreme crisis, then it asks the fundamental question of why bother having a government at all ? it does owe a duty of care to its citizens


And how are they not. Do you know of Any hospital or care facility that is Not working at full capacity in regards to the virus? 
The last time I checked all governments are fresh out of magic wands to make this all go away.


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## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> And how are they not. Do you know of Any hospital or care facility that is Not working at full capacity in regards to the virus?
> The last time I checked all governments are fresh out of magic wands to make this all go away.


 i was replying to your point that people shouldn't cry for the government to take care of them

of course they should expect the government to do exactly that, particularly for financial hardships over and above the more obvious thing of having sufficient ventilators, which it seem very few governments have managed

you seem big on individuals having a '' put by fund'' for emergencies, the government should also have such,( and ventilators) this pandemic is far from an unforeseen event, its been predicted and modelled for decades

we should be very very angry that they are not better prepared


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## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's important to remember that having this buffer is only possible if you're making enough to have anything extra after paying for little trivial things like a roof and food. A large portion of the US can't safe because they literally would have to choose between saving or eating.



I first clicked dislike to your post then removed it. I do not dislike it; I just don't agree with it in conception.

I suppose much of it is cultural and in regards to nurture. I got my first real paycheck when I was 14. From that day forward (actually before in regards to allowance) it was drilled into me and my siblings that at least 20% of every paycheck went into savings. It was Always the first thing you did. We were taught the act of transaction and how banking/S&L/credit unions are your ally, not an enemy. I created a relationship with the people inside our banking establishments and became more than just a number. I made my first loan without a co-signer at age 16. It was for $500 on a 90 day note. I held the $500 and paid the note off with money I earned, then put the $500 back into my savings. Each sibling done this three times, incrementally increasing the amount up to $5,000 before we were 18. This was an excellent way to establish credit. I had never even heard of a credit card at this point. 

***Side note: we do not use credit cards in our personal finances. I use them only in my business affairs for making purchases from companies I don't have purchase order accounts set up with.  

When I turned 18 I borrowed $200,000, without a co-signer, to purchase our family farm and was able to pay it off in 13 years, all the while putting at least 20% into different forms of savings/investments. 

It is all about what you see as relevant and not being short sighted. Not living in the minute which is what a Lot of people in the last few generations have been doing. They are not concerned about hardship because they have never felt it. In such, oblivious to it until something like this virus happens. 

Money is a habit/drug/asset/nemesis/ally/enemy. It is all in what you do with it. It is real and tangible but not physically capable of doing anything by itself. It takes our own personal intervention before it can do anything. 
In other words, it is a tool that we all need to learn how to use to our benefit. 
In this regard, it has a direct relationship to work/output. Assessing the value of what we do has a direct relation to output. Sometimes this simply means doing more of what we are already doing; much like @JR137 has been describing in his recent posts. Sometimes it means evaluating our time utilization and realizing what we are doing (all things) are creating an unbalanced equation. This should allow us to see what/where we need to change.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> i was replying to your point that people shouldn't cry for the government to take care of them
> 
> of course they should expect the government to do exactly that, particularly for financial hardships over and above the more obvious thing of having sufficient ventilators, which it seem very few governments have managed
> 
> ...


It is not an issue of money. It is a issue of manufacturing capability. The world has NEVER needed this many ventilators. What did you think? They were supposed to be setting around in warehouses? How many? Whose warehouses? Who pays for them to be produced yet not consumed? You are thinking very small. 
Companies of all types are scrambling to make conversions to produce PPE. We just finished 2 such projects. It is testing the limits of government and free enterprise.


----------



## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I first clicked dislike to your post then removed it. I do not dislike it; I just don't agree with it in conception.
> 
> I suppose much of it is cultural and in regards to nurture. I got my first real paycheck when I was 14. From that day forward (actually before in regards to allowance) it was drilled into me and my siblings that at least 20% of every paycheck went into savings. It was Always the first thing you did. We were taught the act of transaction and how banking/S&L/credit unions are your ally, not an enemy. I created a relationship with the people inside our banking establishments and became more than just a number. I made my first loan without a co-signer at age 16. It was for $500 on a 90 day note. I held the $500 and paid the note off with money I earned, then put the $500 back into my savings. Each sibling done this three times, incrementally increasing the amount up to $5,000 before we were 18. This was an excellent way to establish credit. I had never even heard of a credit card at this point.
> 
> ...


 but you are in your state of self justification, ignoring a simple point, which is, you can only have rich people if you also have poor people, the whole capitalised system is based on a pyramid of wealth

or to simplify it for you, there is only so much wealth to go round, if you have more then someone else has to have less, if you have a considerable amount someone else ( actually lot of people) has to have very little


if your hording wealth you cant complain that other people dont have enough money to put by, as its largely your fault


----------



## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It is not an issue of money. It is a issue of manufacturing capability. The world has NEVER needed this many ventilators. What did you think? They were supposed to be setting around in warehouses? How many? Whose warehouses? Who pays for them to be produced yet not consumed? You are thinking very small.
> Companies of all types are scrambling to make conversions to produce PPE. We just finished 2 such projects. It is testing the limits of government and free enterprise.


 well yes, thats exactly what i think, events that are not only predictable, but have been predicted so often that they become inevitability s, like this pandemic should have been prepared for, who should pay ? well the people of the country, who pay for all government expenditure


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> And how are they not. Do you know of Any hospital or care facility that is Not working at full capacity in regards to the virus?
> The last time I checked all governments are fresh out of magic wands to make this all go away.


This reminds of something a guy who I really can’t say enough good things about and I admire the hell out of said...

I was working football practice one day. 2 assistant coaches were standing off to the side complaining about a situation. They went on for a solid couple minutes. The head coach who was in earshot of them turns around and says “I’ve heard a ton of complaining from you two, and not a single solution. Either try to come up with an idea or keep your mouths shut.”

No one knows the extent of what’s going on behind the scenes. So many “what if” situations are being discussed, and it’s all about coming up with policies that are effective, reasonable, possible to implement, etc. For every hour they’re spending briefing us, I’m sure they’re spending at least 10 hours analyzing and coming up with a plan. And today’s plan will be changed for unforeseen circumstances that pop up tomorrow. Or a highly unlikely scenario happens and sends everyone back to the old drawing board.

Then add a panel of experts in their respective fields who most likely don’t agree on everything and have conflicting information. Aside from all of this current stuff, how many experts agreed on the economy beforehand? Healthcare system? And so on.

Are they perfect? Nope. Are they trying to balance all the risks and rewards to come up with a realistic solution? I’m quite confident they are. I agree with some solutions and disagree with others.

People love to point out flaws. Like they’re experts and have sat in on the meetings and heard all the different and conflicting advice given. Like one person or group is supposed to come up with and/or stop a worldwide crisis. Sure. And I’ve got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.

And this isn’t pro-Trump speaking. I felt the same way when everyone criticized Obama during the financial crisis back then. While some solutions seem nonsensical in any situation, we haven’t heard all the options on the table and can’t possibly say the decisions made were without any thought or deliberately not following logical and sound expert advice.

Everyone here, me included, has most likely less than 1% of the real facts at hand. Yet everyone’s got something to criticize. Free speech in its finest.


----------



## Steve (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I first clicked dislike to your post then removed it. I do not dislike it; I just don't agree with it in conception.
> 
> I suppose much of it is cultural and in regards to nurture. I got my first real paycheck when I was 14. From that day forward (actually before in regards to allowance) it was drilled into me and my siblings that at least 20% of every paycheck went into savings. It was Always the first thing you did. We were taught the act of transaction and how banking/S&L/credit unions are your ally, not an enemy. I created a relationship with the people inside our banking establishments and became more than just a number. I made my first loan without a co-signer at age 16. It was for $500 on a 90 day note. I held the $500 and paid the note off with money I earned, then put the $500 back into my savings. Each sibling done this three times, incrementally increasing the amount up to $5,000 before we were 18. This was an excellent way to establish credit. I had never even heard of a credit card at this point.
> 
> ...


When these good habits were drilled into you, were they drilled into you by someone who had money or someone who had never had money?  Did you work to support your family at 14, or were you allowed to keep your entire paycheck?  Did you have a roof over your head?  Food in your belly? 

I agree with the value of the lessons you learned, but find it galling that you don't recognize how lucky you were.  I think it's really great that you learned the lessons you could, but dude.


----------



## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> This reminds of something a guy who I really can’t say enough good things about and I admire the hell out of said...
> 
> I was working football practice one day. 2 assistant coaches were standing off to the side complaining about a situation. They went on for a solid couple minutes. The head coach who was in earshot of them turns around and says “I’ve heard a ton of complaining from you two, and not a single solution. Either try to come up with an idea or keep your mouths shut.”
> 
> ...


 i think your naive if you think governments are doing their best for anything else but their own self interest .

there are enormous differences between nation as to whats being done, they all have the same data and the same projections, but the reaction is completely different. that they have considerably different priorities is as far as i can see the only explanation for that

china locked down a whole city and left people to die, which to be fair does seem to have worked, if you ignore the rumoured death toll rather than the official one

India has locked down the whole country leaving people to starve, Indian panic buyer are feeling really smug about now

the UK has us more or less under house arrest, with eye watering fines for those that wont comply

and the states have done really very little in comparison


now only one of those can be correct and the others are either massively over or under reacting, if its OUR best interests they are seeking


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> I agree with the value of the lessons you learned, but find it galling that you don't recognize how lucky you were.




also lucky in that he wanted to do something that would give a financial profit. We also need teachers, scientists, nurses, military, medical researchers, professors, etc etc.  None of these professions make a profit in the way that a business can. We need many people to work to provide services for all. The problem is many of these jobs are low paid and people cannot afford to save, they live month to month. Castigating them for not earning enough is wrong, they deserve good pay for the jobs they do that enables others to earn their money.




dvcochran said:


> It is testing the limits of government and free enterprise.



Actually it's not, there are plenty of people who can organise such things, they can easily supply an invasion of another country. And it's not 'free enterprise' that is doing the job, it's altruism and the willingness of countries to help each other in time of need.

Mercedes F1 team helps create breathing aid to keep coronavirus patients out of intensive care

China sends doctors and masks overseas as domestic coronavirus infections drop


Airline staff to sign up as NHS volunteers during coronavirus pandemic


----------



## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> also lucky in that he wanted to do something that would give a financial profit. We also need teachers, scientists, nurses, military, medical researchers, professors, etc etc.  None of these professions make a profit in the way that a business can. We need many people to work to provide services for all. The problem is many of these jobs are low paid and people cannot afford to save, they live month to month. Castigating them for not earning enough is wrong, they deserve good pay for the jobs they do that enables others to earn their money.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 to be honest they should give much of the problem to the F1 teams to sort out, they do employ some of the cleverest people in the world, either that or nasa

its times like this were being run by a meritocracy of managers, engineers and logistics people would have an advantage over the ''aristocracy'' that runs most of the world


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> i think your naive if you think governments are doing their best for anything else but their own self interest .
> 
> there are enormous differences between nation as to whats being done, they all have the same data and the same projections, but the reaction is completely different. that they have considerably different priorities is as far as i can see the only explanation for that
> 
> ...


Every locale’s situation is different, therefore one approach throughout the world is absurd. You’re naive if you think what’s going to work in Bozeman, Montana is going to work in NYC; what’s going to work in Calcutta is going to work in Mogadishu; what’s going to work in London is going to work in Tibet. And on and on. 

You’re also naive if you think everyone is out to get you and no politician has anyone’s interest in heart other than their own.


----------



## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Every locale’s situation is different, therefore one approach throughout the world is absurd. You’re naive if you think what’s going to work in Bozeman, Montana is going to work in NYC; what’s going to work in Calcutta is going to work in Mogadishu; what’s going to work in London is going to work in Tibet. And on and on.
> 
> You’re also naive if you think everyone is out to get you and no politician has anyone’s interest in heart other than their own.


 well there seems almost no intrinsic difference between, between populas cities in those counties, non at all,

they all have similar density and similar social structures and then no difference between a small town in Montana and one in Lancashire england, and Blackburn Lancashire has exactly the same restrictions as the mega city that is london, so clear our government disagee, which then just highlights the different approach which was my point

tibet might be an out lyer, but cities all the countries mentioned have more in common than they have differences and the differences between say new york and london are minuscule in the extreme, like you drive on the other side of the road and have yellow taxis, that sort of thing


----------



## Steve (Mar 30, 2020)

Well, I've never been to Lancashire England, but I would go out on a limb that it is nothing like Bozeman, MO.


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## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> Well, I've never been to Lancashire England, but I would go out on a limb that it is nothing like Bozeman, MO.


tell me 5 notable things about bozeman ( that effect the virus spread) and we can compare


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> When these good habits were drilled into you, were they drilled into you by someone who had money or someone who had never had money?  Did you work to support your family at 14, or were you allowed to keep your entire paycheck?  Did you have a roof over your head?  Food in your belly?
> 
> I agree with the value of the lessons you learned, but find it galling that you don't recognize how lucky you were.  I think it's really great that you learned the lessons you could, but dude.


To be very clear that was not bragging. Yes, we grew up with a good roof over head. The majority of our food we either raised or grew. We were NOT well off by any means. Both parents worked. As the youngest child I wore a lot of well worn hand-me-downs. I never translated that, or any part of my childhood as bad. It just was the norm. 
When I got my first job my “allowance” reversed and I gave $10 back to my father every week.  “Room & board” he would always say. All 4 siblings did until you moved out. It was never hateful or resented. It is things like this that engrained good money habits in all of us. 
Do I get short with people who make lame *** excuses and are not financially prepared? Yes. Do I feel the least bit bad about it? No. 
I am very sorry for the people going through the fire right now. I hope it invokes a sense of urgency that they must get their affairs in better order. 
So Dude how is this a bad thing?


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> but you are in your state of self justification, ignoring a simple point, which is, you can only have rich people if you also have poor people, the whole capitalised system is based on a pyramid of wealth
> 
> or to simplify it for you, there is only so much wealth to go round, if you have more then someone else has to have less, if you have a considerable amount someone else ( actually lot of people) has to have very little
> 
> ...


That is absurd beyond any reason.


----------



## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> To be very clear that was not bragging. Yes, we grew up with a good roof over head. The majority of our food we either raised or grew. We were NOT well off by any means. Both parents worked. As the youngest child I wore a lot of well worn hand-me-downs. I never translated that, or any part of my childhood as bad. It just was the norm.
> When I got my first job my “allowance” reversed and I gave $10 back to my father every week.  “Room & board” he would always say. All 4 siblings did until you moved out. It was never hateful or resented. It is things like this that engrained good money habits in all of us.
> Do I get short with people who make lame *** excuses and are not financially prepared? Yes. Do I feel the least bit bad about it? No.
> I am very sorry for the people going through the fire right now. I hope it invokes a sense of urgency that they must get their affairs in better order.
> So Dude how is this a bad thing?


 its only '' bad'' as your being judgemental, self satisfied and sanctimonious, which i suspect you cant help, so not really your fault, 

what is BAD , is i get the impression that your less than willing to part with some of your wealth to help them out.

now im not a practising christian, but even i know thats in the great book, so perhaps add hypocrite to the list ?


----------



## Steve (Mar 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> tell me 5 notable things about bozeman ( that effect the virus spread) and we can compare


Well, just off the top of my head, Bozeman, MO is a town and Lancashire is a county.  

With a few minutes research, I looked this up, which seems relevant.  
Bozeman is in Gallatin County, MO, which is over twice the area of Lancashire county (2600 sq miles vs about 1200 sq miles).  But is significantly less populous.  

Gallatin County has about 90k people, with about half in the town of Bozeman.  So, the population density of Bozeman (the 19 square mile town) is about 1900 people per sq. mile.  Gallatin County is just a hair over 80 people per sq. mile.  

Lancashire County is somewhere around 1.5 million people, and about 4k people per square mile.

If you are interested in other notable things, I recommend you look at income levels and where that comes from, access to healthcare, number of guns... lots of notable things you could easily research.  When you're done, maybe you can share a report with the rest of class.


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## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> Well, just off the top of my head, Bozeman, MO is a town and Lancashire is a county.
> 
> With a few minutes research, I looked this up, which seems relevant.
> Bozeman is in Gallatin County, MO, which is over twice the area of Lancashire county (2600 sq miles vs about 1200 sq miles).  But is significantly less populous.
> ...


 i said Blackburn Lancashire that a smallish town in the county of Lancashire ????


----------



## Steve (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> To be very clear that was not bragging. Yes, we grew up with a good roof over head. The majority of our food we either raised or grew. We were NOT well off by any means. Both parents worked. As the youngest child I wore a lot of well worn hand-me-downs. I never translated that, or any part of my childhood as bad. It just was the norm.
> When I got my first job my “allowance” reversed and I gave $10 back to my father every week.  “Room & board” he would always say. All 4 siblings did until you moved out. It was never hateful or resented. It is things like this that engrained good money habits in all of us.
> Do I get short with people who make lame *** excuses and are not financially prepared? Yes. Do I feel the least bit bad about it? No.
> I am very sorry for the people going through the fire right now. I hope it invokes a sense of urgency that they must get their affairs in better order.
> So Dude how is this a bad thing?


I didn't see it as bragging.  I see it as lacking awareness.


----------



## Steve (Mar 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> i said Blackburn Lancashire that a smallish town in the county of Lancashire ????


Cool.  I'll read your report with interest.


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## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> I didn't see it as bragging.  I see it as lacking awareness.


As I mentioned in another post we finished up two conversion projects over the weekend to produce PPE. I am imminently aware. I just am not getting sucked in to the fear of it.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> As I mentioned in another post we finished up two conversion projects over the weekend to produce PPE. I am imminently aware. I just am not getting sucked in to the fear of it.



Me either, and I am now in quarantine....although I was told it was voluntary when they told me to go home


----------



## Buka (Mar 30, 2020)

When I started this thread, I ended the Op with...
_
"Maybe we can all chill a bit and enjoy each other more."_ 

Ah, as they say, "the best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry."


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> its only '' bad'' as your being judgemental, self satisfied and sanctimonious, which i suspect you cant help, so not really your fault,
> 
> what is BAD , is i get the impression that your less than willing to part with some of your wealth to help them out.
> 
> now im not a practising christian, but even i know thats in the great book, so perhaps add hypocrite to the list ?


We tithe 10%, give 10% of our personal gross income to charities and my business averages about 10% of our gross sales to charity. Giving back is how I have gotten to where I am. 
And just what is it you do for your fellow man?


----------



## Steve (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> As I mentioned in another post we finished up two conversion projects over the weekend to produce PPE. I am imminently aware. I just am not getting sucked in to the fear of it.


Talking about your posts regarding income and how everyone should have saved 20% of their income from the time they were 14, etc.  Just because you seem to lack awareness of your privileged upbringing, and the many advantages that have compounded for you over the course of your life time, doesn't mean you aren't aware of anything.  That's why they're referred to as blind spots.

And to reiterate, I think the lessons you learned are great, and I applaud you for putting them into practice.  It's really worked out for you.  But to suggest that you did this without significant advantages that many (most) people lack suggests lack of awareness.


----------



## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

it will be some sort of tax right off,im sure, so why are you so upset at the idea of giving them more to help out at this time, you can surly afford to give them more, Jesus said'' give them the cloak off your back'' not give them 10 % of a cloak and call it a handkerchief

the first thing i give my fellow man is not judging them for being poor. Jesus said'' judge not , in case you be judged''

 you could do that it wont cost you anything and its very christian


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## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> i said Blackburn Lancashire that a smallish town in the county of Lancashire ????




You did. That's BLACKBURN Steve.

'Lancashire County' makes me wince. A county in the UK is not the same as a county in the US. 

When talking about Lancashire though, Steve, were you looking up the administrative county or the ceremonial county? There's cities in Lancashire that are included historically but have their own metropolitan area. 



dvcochran said:


> Do I get short with people who make lame *** excuses and are not financially prepared?



I think you need to broaden your mind and do some research into people's pay and just what jobs they do that enable you to live the comfortable life you lead.


----------



## Steve (Mar 30, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> You did. That's BLACKBURN Steve.
> 
> 'Lancashire County' makes me wince. A county in the UK is not the same as a county in the US.


Is that so?  What does county mean in the UK?  I'm genuinely curious.  





> When talking about Lancashire though, Steve, were you looking up the administrative county or the ceremonial county? There's cities in Lancashire that are included historically but have their own metropolitan area.


I believe I was looking at data for the administrative county.  In the USA, the county data includes data for all of the cities/metropolitan areas within it.  





> I think you need to broaden your mind and do some research into people's pay and just what jobs they do that enable you to live the comfortable life you lead.


Totally agree.


----------



## Buka (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> Talking about your posts regarding income and how everyone should have saved 20% of their income from the time they were 14, etc.  Just because you seem to lack awareness of your privileged upbringing, and the many advantages that have compounded for you over the course of your life time, doesn't mean you aren't aware of anything.  That's why they're referred to as blind spots.
> 
> And to reiterate, I think the lessons you learned are great, and I applaud you for putting them into practice.  It's really worked out for you.  But to suggest that you did this without significant advantages that many (most) people lack suggests lack of awareness.



I couldn't disagree with this more even if I had a disagreeing machine.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> well there seems almost no intrinsic difference between, between populas cities in those counties, non at all,
> 
> they all have similar density and similar social structures and then no difference between a small town in Montana and one in Lancashire england, and Blackburn Lancashire has exactly the same restrictions as the mega city that is london, so clear our government disagee, which then just highlights the different approach which was my point
> 
> tibet might be an out lyer, but cities all the countries mentioned have more in common than they have differences and the differences between say new york and london are minuscule in the extreme, like you drive on the other side of the road and have yellow taxis, that sort of thing


No difference between those places, huh? Needs are the same, everything is the same. Sure. 

Naivety.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> Is that so? What does county mean in the UK? I'm genuinely curious.



It has several different meanings in the UK, quite often for the same area. There's ceremonial counties, metropolitan counties and non metropolitan counties, then there's the real or historic counties. Counties of England - United Kingdom genealogy project


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> We tithe 10%, give 10% of our personal gross income to charities and my business averages about 10% of our gross sales to charity. Giving back is how I have gotten to where I am.
> And just what is it you do for your fellow man?



Maimonides defines eight levels in giving charity (_tzedakah_), each one higher than the preceding one.

On an ascending level, they are as follows:

8. When donations are given grudgingly.

7. When one gives less than he should, but does so cheerfully.

6. When one gives directly to the poor upon being asked.

5. When one gives directly to the poor without being asked.

4. Donations when the recipient is aware of the donor's identity, but the donor still doesn't know the specific identity of the recipient.

3. Donations when the donor is aware to whom the charity is being given, but the recipient is unaware of the source.

2. Giving assistance in such a way that the giver and recipient are unknown to each other.

1. _The highest form of charity is to help sustain a person before they become impoverished by offering a substantial gift in a dignified manner, or by extending a suitable loan, or by helping them find employment or establish themselves in business so as to make it unnecessary for them to become dependent on others._


Tithing is a very easy way to give charity without any effort, and giving money is not what is always needed. giving someone one's time can often be more valuable. Tithing isn't giving back, it's more about being smug and letting someone  else do the actual charitable work for you. If you have money it's easy to give some away. Do you give your charitable money to anyone who is not connetced with your church such as someone of another religion or faith? is your charity only given to those you want to join your faith?


----------



## Steve (Mar 30, 2020)

Buka said:


> I couldn't disagree with this more even if I had a disagreeing machine.


Is that right?  With what exactly do you disagree?  that the lessons he learned were good ones?  That he's lucky to have had adults around who could teach him how to manage his money?  That he never had to worry about food, shelter, education, etc, so that he could learn these lessons?  

I don't think there's anything wrong with leveraging what advantages we have been afforded in life.  But failing to acknowledge them, or even worse, not even knowing they exist, is a real issue.


----------



## Steve (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> Talking about your posts regarding income and how everyone should have saved 20% of their income from the time they were 14, etc.  Just because you seem to lack awareness of your privileged upbringing, and the many advantages that have compounded for you over the course of your life time, doesn't mean you aren't aware of anything.  That's why they're referred to as blind spots.
> 
> And to reiterate, I think the lessons you learned are great, and I applaud you for putting them into practice.  It's really worked out for you.  But to suggest that you did this without significant advantages that many (most) people lack suggests lack of awareness.


Hi @Brian King , which part of this do you disagree with?  I don't think there's anything controversial in here.


----------



## jobo (Mar 30, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> No difference between those places, huh? Needs are the same, everything is the same. Sure.
> 
> Naivety.


good glad we agreeeeeeeeeee


----------



## Buka (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> Is that right?  With what exactly do you disagree?  that the lessons he learned were good ones?  That he's lucky to have had adults around who could teach him how to manage his money?  That he never had to worry about food, shelter, education, etc, so that he could learn these lessons?
> 
> I don't think there's anything wrong with leveraging what advantages we have been afforded in life.  But failing to acknowledge them, or even worse, not even knowing they exist, is a real issue.



First off, it's good to see/read you again. I thought of you every time I read about Washington State and all the cases they've had up there, I was hoping you and family were all okay. Sincerely.

To the post...

Yes, that's right.

I guess we have a different concept of what a privileged upbringing is.

And to the point_ "But failing to acknowledge them, or even worse, not even knowing they exist, is a real issue"
_
An issue with whom, exactly? Doesn't seem to be an issue with him, it's not an issue with me, why would it be an issue with you?

Who the F died and made you Grace Kelly?


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2020)

Buka said:


> First off, it's good to see/read you again. I thought of you every time I read about Washington State and all the cases they've had up there, I was hoping you and family were all okay. Sincerely.
> 
> To the post...
> 
> ...


I'm doing just fine.  Lots going on, but family's good.

To the post....

When I use the word "privilege," I mean it in terms of an advantage not enjoyed by others, gifted to you by virtue of your birth and upbringing, and not by anything you did.  It can be anything, big or small.

 For example:
Working hard and saving 20% of your income since you were 14?  Not privilege.
Having a parent who didn't rely on your income at 14 to put food on the table?  Privilege.

Taking sound financial advice on managing debt, using credit wisely, and avoiding common debt traps and pitfalls?  Not privilege.
Having a parent who was well educated, smart, and fiscally responsible around to teach you these things?  Privilege.

Using your solid credit history to purchase property?  Not privilege.
Having someone around with good enough credit to co-sign for your $200k loan?  Privilege.

And again, don't get me wrong.  Privilege is not inherently bad.  Failing to acknowledge it, however, can lead to judging other people by an unfair and unrealistic standard.  Said in a more positive way, I think if you are aware of the privileges you have benefited from, you will be more empathetic and understanding of those who have not had those same privileges.

Regarding the rest, I would hope that it's understood when I speak, I'm speaking for myself.  Right?   The comment about issue, I see it as an issue.  If you disagree, that's what a discussion board is all about.  And I do still see that lack of self awareness as the real issue.


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## Buka (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> I'm doing just fine.  Lots going on, but family's good.
> 
> To the post....
> 
> ...



I grew up privileged. That's what my dad always taught me. Because he grew up dirt poor on failed farm land in the 1800's, and had to sometimes survive by eating rat, old horse, insects, anything and everything. So I get the growing up privileged thing. But _his_ definition of privileged, and _my_ definition of privileged and _your_ definition of privileged is hardly the same.

I'm guessing most people might also have varying definitions of the word as well.

Bu to have an issue concerning what was said in that post, to me, is frankly silly.


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2020)

Buka said:


> I grew up privileged. That's what my dad always taught me. Because he grew up dirt poor on failed farm land in the 1800's, and had to sometimes survive by eating rat, old horse, insects, anything and everything. So I get the growing up privileged thing. But _his_ definition of privileged, and _my_ definition of privileged and _your_ definition of privileged is hardly the same.
> 
> I'm guessing most people might also have varying definitions of the word as well.
> 
> Bu to have an issue concerning what was said in that post, to me, is frankly silly.


Fair enough.  I think what i posted is pretty obvious and straightforward.  I also think my definition of privilege and your dad's is the exactly the same.


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## Buka (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> Fair enough.  I think what i posted is pretty obvious and straightforward.  I also think my definition of privilege and your dad's is the exactly the same.



Oh sheet, do I have to go to my room now? If only I had a dog. Damn.


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## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Maimonides defines eight levels in giving charity (_tzedakah_), each one higher than the preceding one.
> 
> On an ascending level, they are as follows:
> 
> ...



Damn, talk about being smug and looking down your nose at someone. Tithing is following a basic biblical directive. I have never thought about 'why' I do it; I just know in my heart that I am supposed to. No one in my circle is keeping score of how much each other tithes. We rotate what charitable organization we give to almost every year. I have enough faith in the leadership of the charities we give to that I am not worried about how the money is distributed. If they fail, that is on them. Who can worry about everything? All charitable organizations have strict guidelines in place.

We do not get tax breaks for charitable donations anymore. It never changed our giving practices.  

Frankly I don't give two shits who/what Maimonides and it is hugely condescending to make such a judgemental list. Giving is and should always be a personal decision. There is no vanity in what we do. Normally it would have never been brought up. But some people on here are anything but normal. 

Is this how all the people in GB think about donations/charity? A very, very sad reflection on your people.


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## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> I'm doing just fine.  Lots going on, but family's good.
> 
> To the post....
> 
> ...





dvcochran said:


> When I turned 18 I borrowed $200,000, without a co-signer,


No co-signer was needed. 
Some of you guys need to lighten up and look over the bushes more often. There is a great big life going on around you.


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## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> You did. That's BLACKBURN Steve.
> 
> 'Lancashire County' makes me wince. A county in the UK is not the same as a county in the US.
> 
> ...


At our peak we employed over 100 people from high tech engineers to clerical and cleaning people. We Always paid more than minimum wage and standard scale. We worked kids on their internships and had homeless people who frequently used the open, covered end of our building. 
My first wife's father was a lifetime drunk who spent most of his life on the streets of Nashville until it finally took his life. I cannot count the hours we spent trying to keep up with him. 
I have zero clue what is driving your judemental mindset but you are Way off base in you opinion of me, my earnings, and my giving. Damn, just damn.


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## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> Talking about your posts regarding income and how everyone should have saved 20% of their income from the time they were 14, etc.  Just because you seem to lack awareness of your privileged upbringing, and the many advantages that have compounded for you over the course of your life time, doesn't mean you aren't aware of anything.  That's why they're referred to as blind spots.
> 
> And to reiterate, I think the lessons you learned are great, and I applaud you for putting them into practice.  It's really worked out for you.  But to suggest that you did this without significant advantages that many (most) people lack suggests lack of awareness.


Who ever said Everyone should save 20%? I said I did. Nothing more. I guess it hit too close to home for you.
Where you read privilege into what I wrote is on you because it did not exist. My parents had a failed business and SBA loan that almost took everything we had.


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## geezer (Mar 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Frankly I don't give two shits who/what Maimonides...



You don't have to be Greek to appreciate the wisdom of Plato and Socrates, or Roman to have read the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, or Chinese to have read Lao Tzu. I'm not Jewish, but I learned a bit about some great Jewish thinkers like Hillel in the Talmudic period, and much later, in the Middle Ages, Maimonedes.

Don't let your personal animosities lead you to make such rash statements. The dude was a very wise man. 

Maimonides - Wikipedia


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2020)

Buka said:


> Oh sheet, do I have to go to my room now? If only I had a dog. Damn.


I have two dogs... you can't have either of them.


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## Buka (Mar 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> I have two dogs... you can't have either of them.



We rent out here. All rentals have a very strict "no pets" policy. But our landlord loves us and is allowing us to get a dog. I haven't been this excited about anything in a long while!

But this corona thing has complicated the plans in varying ways. God damn, I can't wait to get a dog.

Please give yours a couple rubs behind the ears for me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 30, 2020)

Buka said:


> We rent out here. All rentals have a very strict "no pets" policy. But our landlord loves us and is allowing us to get a dog. I haven't been this excited about anything in a long while!
> 
> But this corona thing has complicated the plans in varying ways. God damn, I can't wait to get a dog.
> 
> Please give yours a couple rubs behind the ears for me.


I have one who's willing to accept token belly rubs in your honor.


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## dvcochran (Mar 30, 2020)

geezer said:


> You don't have to be Greek to appreciate the wisdom of Plato and Socrates, or Roman to have read the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, or Chinese to have read Lao Tzu. I'm not Jewish, but I learned a bit about some great Jewish thinkers like Hillel in the Talmudic period, and much later, in the Middle Ages, Maimonedes.
> 
> Don't let your personal animosities lead you to make such rash statements. The dude was a very wise man.
> 
> Maimonides - Wikipedia


I do not doubt that at all. Those are some of the grea5 minds in History. I am a technical guy, hardly philosophical at all, hence the reaction to being compared to a meaningless (to me) list. 
Say what you want; it was a dick move.


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2020)

Buka said:


> We rent out here. All rentals have a very strict "no pets" policy. But our landlord loves us and is allowing us to get a dog. I haven't been this excited about anything in a long while!
> 
> But this corona thing has complicated the plans in varying ways. God damn, I can't wait to get a dog.
> 
> Please give yours a couple rubs behind the ears for me.


Sadie says hi.


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## _Simon_ (Mar 30, 2020)

Buka said:


> We rent out here. All rentals have a very strict "no pets" policy. But our landlord loves us and is allowing us to get a dog. I haven't been this excited about anything in a long while!
> 
> But this corona thing has complicated the plans in varying ways. God damn, I can't wait to get a dog.
> 
> Please give yours a couple rubs behind the ears for me.


(Photos please when it happens!!)


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## _Simon_ (Mar 30, 2020)

Hellooooo!


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## Tez3 (Mar 31, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Tithing is following a basic biblical directive. I have never thought about 'why' I do it; I just know in my heart that I am supposed to.





dvcochran said:


> Frankly I don't give two shits who/what Maimonides and it is hugely condescending to make such a judgemental list.




Actually you need to remember that Joshua bar Joseph ('Jesus') was Jewish, everything he said and did was Jewish, that the writings you call the 'Old Testament' are Jewish writings, that you take your religion from Judaism. Your '10' ( actually there were more than just 10) commandments were given to the Jews, as was the Law.  The very foundation and basis of your Xtian faith is Jewish. You called Judaism a sect, you forget your Jesus was Jewish and a member of that 'sect', when you insult us you insult him. 



dvcochran said:


> Say what you want; it was a dick move.



No, it was reminding you what you call the Bible is telling you. You attack without actually thinking, that is a 'dick move'.




dvcochran said:


> Is this how all the people in GB think about donations/charity? A very, very sad reflection on your people.



Why do you always have to bring up the UK and insult the people? ( GB is a geographical distinction) you must really hate Brits.

The only condescending person here is you when you look down on those who are not paid enough to be able to save. What is becoming really clear in these days of crisis is just exactly who keeps a country running and it's not the wealthy. It's all those people in low paid jobs that you look down on, it's all those workers who are still working when the rest of us are in 'lockdown'. the people with the least amount of money are actually the best as being economical, making their money go further and being thrifty yet you despise what you call their 'weal excuses' for not being able to save. Patting yourself on the back because you 'tithe' is not enough, especially if you do it without thinking, does it just go to your church or do you know who is benefits, you didn't answer my questions in that respect. Do you fund clean water in countries that need it, do you sponsor girl's educations so they don't have to be married as children, do you help refugees by listening to them, helping them find accommodation or playing with their children while they attend medical appointments they need after being tortured in their own countries, do you raise money for hospices, do you campaign against FGM, do you help those with dementia with memory sessions, do you help disabled children with sport...………. there is so much more to being 'charitable' than just giving money every month.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 31, 2020)

Locked pending staff review.

William H
@kempodisciple 
MartialTalk Moderator


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