# How do you train chi sau?



## yak sao (Aug 25, 2014)

For those of you who don't know me, I train in the Leung Ting lineage of Wing Tsun, though I am no longer affiliated with his organization.
LT Wing Tsun teaches chi sau by way of sections. These are prearranged 2 man sets that are designed to teach the student chi sau. 
These were developed by him as a way of him codifying his method of WT and allowing him to teach large numbers of people. He knew that students in Hong Kong were doing things the way they were in Europe and US, etc.

Having come from this method of training, I have naturally taught this to my students, but now I'm beginning to think that maybe it's time for a change, at least in my little corner of the world.

I don't teach large numbers of people...I have a group of maybe a dozen. It begs the question then,  shouldn't my chi sau be taught from a more traditional standpoint instead of following the "corporate model"?

I would like to hear from not only from WT people but also those of you from other lineages. How do you guys guide your students through chi sau?


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## zuti car (Aug 25, 2014)

I have practiced WT long time ago , actually I have started with it . I have found that WT sections are good way to teach students basics and i do use them to teach some some of my students .


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## KPM (Aug 25, 2014)

In Pin Sun the student learns the roll (our rolling platform is different from the Ip Man version).  Then he or she learns to attack and defend the "4 gates" with simple moves.  For a punch over the top on the outside with either hand....Bong Sau.  For a punch up the middle on the inside with either hand....Jut Sau.  Then the student works on countering with a simple strike after defending each of these 4 gates.  Then we work on transitioning into the Lop Da drill for several cycles and then back into the roll.  That's really all that is "prearranged."  No complicated techniques.  No Chi Sau "tricks."  Free flow is done in Chi Sau but mainly as a bridge to light sparring.  Chi Sau is not seen as a game in and of itself, but as a way to bridge in from contact.


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## yak sao (Aug 25, 2014)

I'm probably  thinking out loud more than anything, because I do think the sections are good as well.

Sometimes I think that people get too wrapped up in them and forget that they are simply a vehicle to get you to into free style, not something that should be slavishly adhered to.


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## Kwan Sau (Aug 25, 2014)

yak sao said:


> I would like to hear from not only from WT people but also those of you from other lineages. How do you guys guide your students through chi sau?



I teach it as a progression (as I'm sure most do). Dan chi sau (stationary); then Dan chi sau (moving); then running hands (outside, inside); then Dan chi sau using both hands; then Dan chi sau both hands moving...etc. Then move on to the "rolling"...then rolling with running hands, then common responses to common "attacks", and on and on and on it goes! Good topic Yak. I like that you are thinking and looking outside the "corporate" box...


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## dlcox (Aug 25, 2014)

Wow tough to describe in a few words. In Ruan family we use 3 formats. Single Sticking Hands to Rolling Hands to Circling Hands. There are many preparation drills prior to each section. Each is based on the 3 families Tan, Fu & Bang. Once one learns proper structure, bridge usage and theory they progress through the formats. There are no real cycles to speak of as I like to keep it spontaneous and organic. I think this makes the student focus more on structure, theory and practical use as compared to coreographed sequences that turn in slap fighting. It admittedly takes longer to learn and there is a tendency for students to muscle the technique, but the trade off is practicality under heavy duress. Just as with everything else the more it is drilled the more sensitivity and finesse is developed. Ruan family is about what you learn today you use today. It follows an older mind set on training of learning realistic practical movement first then work towards polishing. It is cruder and not as pretty as some other branches of chi shou that I've seen but IMO just as effective. It looks similar to hand fighting in grappling. As time progresses one learns when to yield or press as needed along with subtle structure checks and manipulations. I would classify Ruan family as Iron Bridge style, not unlike a cross between Hongjia and Taijiquan. It is definately like Iron Wire tension, which is required for the heavy grappling aspect. More constricter than viper. All formats start stationary then progress to moving.


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## BPWT (Aug 26, 2014)

yak sao said:


> LT Wing Tsun teaches chi sau by way of sections. These are prearranged 2 man sets that are designed to teach the student chi sau.
> These were developed by him as a way of him codifying his method of WT and allowing him to teach large numbers of people. He knew that students in Hong Kong were doing things the way they were in Europe and US, etc.



This is an interesting - and potentially thorny - subject for those who learn Leung Ting's system 

The sections were indeed put together to help the student understand how Chi Sau works; the what and the why, and to do so in a codified way. In theory, you can train with someone from the WT lineage, where ever in the world they may be from, and in doing so you can jump into the various CS sections to train specific things.

It's a wonderful idea... in theory...  In practise, things are never so simple 

Different people, in different countries, have very different ideas and understanding of the sections. Sometimes it makes you wonder if they understand them at all.  Personally, I've come to the realisation that you need to study from someone who has had serious, extended training time in Hong Kong. Or a very close relationship with someone who has. 

The history of Leung Ting's organisation is a long and complicated thing - with lots of little wires that can trip you up if you're not looking carefully at where you're going. I could tell you a few funny stories... 



For me, the CS sections are very cleverly constructed and are very useful. The key, IMO, is in almost immediately adding to the mix Gor Sau and Lat Sau training. Even if you've _only just started_ learning the first section. Indeed, even before you get to the first section in your training you should actually know most of what is in that section via various Lap Sau/Lap Kuen exercises. Those too (within a Lap Sau format) should also be be trained with a Gor Sau type method of training.

The CS sections give you _examples_ of ways you can implement the system's body methods and concepts in a Chi Sau setting. The Gor Sau gets you playing freely with these things, and the Lat Sau allows you to understand how you apply those things when you're not starting from a pre-set bridged position (Poon Sau).

Personally, I like to take the CS sections and train parts of them - rather than whole sequences. I like to work on the parts as-is, then play with the ideas behind them outside of the as-is format.


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## yak sao (Aug 26, 2014)

BPWT said:


> Personally, I like to take the CS sections and train parts of them - rather than whole sequences. I like to work on the parts as-is, then play with the ideas behind them outside of the as-is format.




This has been something I have been harping on with my students. Everyone gets so bogged down in the choreography of the sections that they forget that the sections, like our forms, are there for cataloguing purposes. I have been having the guys take small sequences out of the sections and drill the heck out of them, rather than just go through the sections by rote.

Maybe that's the answer, rather than chucking the whole method. They really are a good way of imparting the system...if approached properly


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## yak sao (Aug 26, 2014)

BPWT said:


> This is an interesting - and potentially thorny - subject for those who learn Leung Ting's system
> 
> The sections were indeed put together to help the student understand how Chi Sau works; the what and the why, and to do so in a codified way. In theory, you can train with someone from the WT lineage, where ever in the world they may be from, and in doing so you can jump into the various CS sections to train specific things.
> 
> ...




BTW, nice to have another WT'er on board. I look forward to hearing your insights as time goes on.


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## KPM (Aug 26, 2014)

BPWT said:


> The sections were indeed put together to help the student understand how Chi Sau works; the what and the why, and to do so in a codified way. In theory, you can train with someone from the WT lineage, where ever in the world they may be from, and in doing so you can jump into the various CS sections to train specific things.



Just a quick question.....how "generalizable" are these pre-arranged sections in terms of applying them to a non-Wing Chun opponent?  Do what they teach work against a boxer or kick-boxer just as well as they do against a Wing Chun guy?


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## BPWT (Aug 26, 2014)

yak sao said:


> I have been having the guys take small sequences out of the sections and drill the heck out of them, rather than just go through the sections by rote.



This method fits me. But to add to the fun and to test if people are becoming natural in their use of the ideas inside the sections, it is nice to drill a single part of a section, over and over, and then randomly throw something else into that short cycle, just to see how you/they deal with it.

The nice thing about the sections is that the various parts that make them up can be interchanged, reinserted, etc. Do something from the first section, and then add in something from later in the section but not the next sequence had you been following the standard set. Then go back to the first short sequence, then add in something from a completely different section altogether.

It really keeps you on your toes - stops you just going through the motions. Instead of movements flowing in sequence (a, b, c, d, e), theY end up flowing something like a, b, e, z, h, 8, f, d.     LOL. 

And when I keep getting hit and *****ing things up, I know I need to slow things down and work on feeling pressure and force flow, etc. Often its the attack that determines the response - if you just let it. And that is the problem with the sections, like you said... we can easily get stuck in a game of anticipation as we _know_ what is (or should) be coming next in a set sequence. Mix it up and all Hell breaks loose.

Another thing I like to do is to take an idea/concept and a possible method (body method, bridging method) that we get from a section, but do something a little different so that you use the same 'idea' to deal with the incoming attack, but use a different physical method to handle it. 

For example, if a section (let's say the first) requires you to meet an attack with Wu Sau, and then use Bong to off-load the force... I make my attack a little differently, maybe coming in on a slightly different angle. This means that Bong from the other guy would be forced/not a natural response, and it might be a better idea to dissipate the force with a Tan instead, for example. Someone shouldn't be making a choice as to how they respond, of course, but the person in Wu Sau, when feeling strong force against the Wu should automatically make the right choice (say, Bong or Tan), based on the direction of incoming force.


I heard a funny story from a friend in Germany who was at a Leung Ting seminar many, many moons ago. LT was showing something from a section, doing what everyone expected within a set sequence. Then he grabbed another seminar participant to show that person the same thing. Same part of the section, just with a different partner.

With the second guy, when that guy attacked, Leung Ting's response to the attack was different, but then after that counter movement LT continued with the next part of the section like normal. Everyone was thinking, "So cool... LT just showed us a _special_ variation to the section - something _new_ that we hadn't learned before." 

People were talking about it like it was a some kind of _higher-level application_. 

What had happened? The second guy had simply attacked with less force, less commitment than the first guy. So naturally, LT's reaction to it was different. Nothing special, nothing higher level, just no need for him to do what he'd had to do with the first guy who had attacker harder.

LT didn't even bother to explain what had happened because he obviously thought it was, well, obvious.  It was all about feeling. The sad thing is some people went away from that seminar and taught this 'special variation'. :eye-popping:


The important thing, IMO, is that whatever I do I tell myself it must: a) follow the system's core principles and ideas, b) flow naturally, c) ... work. 





yak sao said:


> Maybe that's the answer, rather than chucking the whole method. They really are a good way of imparting the system...if *approached properly*



My highlights. This is so important, I think. I have met so many people and been so disappointed with training (and in so many countries, LOL) because I think the approach to Chi Sau is not as it should be. And here I'm talking exclusively about training within the Leung Ting system. And I love the system


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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 26, 2014)

KPM said:


> Just a quick question.....how "generalizable" are these pre-arranged sections in terms of applying them to a non-Wing Chun opponent?  Do what they teach work against a boxer or kick-boxer just as well as they do against a Wing Chun guy?



I personally look at WC forms as your encyclopedia of techniques and the Chi Sau as the method of learning how to apply the techniques and method of gaining sensitivity as well as muscle memory for your reflexes. 

WC of course looks best while sparring other WC practitioners that are using WC structure in free sparring and then becomes a bit less Chi Sau/WC  looking when they spar a different style/practitioner that has good outside game and reactions. 

Yes it works against different styles and like most styles WC is a pretty complete system that has a strategy, concept or technique that can defend or neutralize most striking techniques. 

Its a very effective system but what it comes down to is why style is not better but what practitioner is the better fighter/sparrer on that particular day of the match.


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## BPWT (Aug 26, 2014)

KPM said:


> Just a quick question.....how "generalizable" are these pre-arranged sections in terms of applying them to a non-Wing Chun opponent?  Do what they teach work against a boxer or kick-boxer just as well as they do against a Wing Chun guy?



Tricky question to answer. The sections begin from Poon Sau and keep that 'Chi Sau' range - so if you Chi Sau'd with a boxer... sure they work against a boxer. 

But seriously, at first glance it would be easy to say "No, they wouldn't work as well", because the attacks, etc, are classical WT punches and palm strikes, etc.

That said, so on second glance, I would say, "Yes, what they teach would work against a boxer." The principles and body methods are what count, at least what count more than the set sequence you run through. 

The sections are teaching you about LLHS - LSJC, about opening up lines of attack, about how to control via bridging, how to redirect force, how to affect structure, etc, etc, so these things should be universal - if you know the system well and you've trained it properly, you should be able to use what is _inside_ the sections (the lessons they teach) against a boxer, a mantis guy, a karate dude, etc.

Edit: It goes without saying, of course, that you need the Gor Sau and Lat Sau to accompany the Chi Sau sections. Plus, if you're a train-twice-a-week kinda guy, and you're facing a boxer (or whoever) who trains and fights 5 nights a week... probably you're toast. :lfao:


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## dlcox (Aug 26, 2014)

BPWT said:


> This is an interesting - and potentially thorny - subject for those who learn Leung Ting's system
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is fantastic. I like how your Yongchun chi shou is broken up into cycles and how you have taken that further into compartments. Ruan family is similar to your compartment use. Our progression is basically, Position, Bridge, Control, Hit, Return. Our platforms are Single, Rolling and Circling. Our concepts are Stirring, Running, Leaking and Binding. Inside of that are the bridges, strikes, kicks, locks and throws. We don't have choreographed sequences, hence no need for "Classical Yongchun" structure as it is all concept and principle based movement and reaction, however, for the user it works best inside the framework. Drilling combinations is also very useful, but we do not have specific combinations they are created as situations arise. Sometimes it is necessary to ad lib as most people color outside the lines of Yongchun structure and movement. I like this organic approach as a whole and your breakdown of the cycles in WT are similar in concept to our Intercepting and Joining Hands drills. This method may lead to more muscling and chasing initially but doesn't allow the practitioner to fall slave to the choreography of prearranged sequences. It creates spontaneity of action and reaction. IMO it also allows the practitioner to develop a useful skill set that is complimentary to their preferred fighting style, whether it be striking, grappling, throwing etc.  

It's good to see everyone sharing their approach and comparing the similarities and differences without all the "You're wrong. I'm right" attitude. IMO it all comes full circle in the end. Some ways may be quicker than others, some play more defensively some more offensively. In the end it doesn't matter we all have different learning curves and preferences. Find a way that suits you and explore. I've already learned a thing or two from this thread that I'm eager to try out.


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## BPWT (Aug 26, 2014)

dlcox said:


> It's good to see everyone sharing their approach and comparing the similarities and differences without all the "You're wrong. I'm right" attitude.



To be honest, on other forums I've gotten into my fair share of arguments with people... so just wait.   I've had some pretty _heated_ discussions with people from the EWTO, too (online and offline). 

But by and large, I don't like the "you're wrong, I'm right" line of things. I've met too many people from different lineages of Wing Chun, and from completely different martial arts. I've been impressed by people who train systems that are wildly different to my own. Skill is skill, regardless of system. That said, those crazy EWTO guys... LOL 

I'm not familiar, by the way, with Ruanjia Yong Chun Quan. Where can I read a little more about it?


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## dlcox (Aug 26, 2014)

BPWT said:


> To be honest, on other forums I've gotten into my fair share of arguments with people... so just wait.   I've had some pretty _heated_ discussions with people from the EWTO, too (online and offline).
> 
> But by and large, I don't like the "you're wrong, I'm right" line of things. I've met too many people from different lineages of Wing Chun, and from completely different martial arts. I've been impressed by people who train systems that are wildly different to my own. Skill is skill, regardless of system. That said, those crazy EWTO guys... LOL
> 
> I'm not familiar, by the way, with Ruanjia Yong Chun Quan. Where can I read a little more about it?



To be honest there isn't much out there on it. It comes from the older brother of Ruan Kei Shan (Yuan Kay San), his name was Ruan Ji Yun (Yuan Chai Wan). Though both studied from the same individuals, Ruan Ji Yun went south in 1936 to Vietnam, supposedly after killing a man in a fight, and accepted a job teaching martial arts at a Chinese ex-pats association in north Vietnam. This is where my lineage stems from. His brother stayed in China and was undoubtedly influenced by the local martial scene there. Later in life when Ruan Ji Yun traveled to south Vietnam the curriculum was changed as the 5 Animals were introduced to it, southern Vietnamese Vin Xuan is heavily influenced by the Vietnamese martial scene. This is the majority of the material that is present on the net, it looks nothing like what I do for the most part my stuff looks similar to Yu Cai or Ruan Kei Shan Yongchun. I've never studied those branches so I can't comment on them intelligently I can only say that it looks similar, conceptually I don't know the relationship, but would offer a guess that it isn't much different.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 26, 2014)

yak sao said:


> For those of you who don't know me, I train in the Leung Ting lineage of Wing Tsun, though I am no longer affiliated with his organization.
> LT Wing Tsun teaches chi sau by way of sections. These are prearranged 2 man sets that are designed to teach the student chi sau.
> These were developed by him as a way of him codifying his method of WT and allowing him to teach large numbers of people. He knew that students in Hong Kong were doing things the way they were in Europe and US, etc.
> 
> ...


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------







I teach the full cycle-single, double, lop, footwork with chi sau, lat sau and gor sao,
Of course I am no where near my sifu in skills. As soon as I get better my sifu has also moved ahead.
Its quite a progression in skill development.It is not fighting but it is a superb path to self defense-
not just against wing chunners.
Interesting- the different versions brought out in this thread.


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## mook jong man (Aug 26, 2014)

In the TST lineage , the progression goes typically like this.

[video=youtube_share;YmcegjzmUq4]http://youtu.be/YmcegjzmUq4[/video]

[video=youtube_share;vCqz0TxMty4]http://youtu.be/vCqz0TxMty4[/video]

[video=youtube_share;JNiiTAb5waE]http://youtu.be/JNiiTAb5waE[/video]

[video=youtube_share;WMvldgGMkcA]http://youtu.be/WMvldgGMkcA[/video]

[video=youtube_share;odyg82cvIbg]http://youtu.be/odyg82cvIbg[/video]

[video=youtube_share;E7jL7z1l7oE]http://youtu.be/E7jL7z1l7oE[/video]

[video=youtube_share;pei68XwKiIc]http://youtu.be/pei68XwKiIc[/video]


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## KPM (Aug 26, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> I personally look at WC forms as your encyclopedia of techniques and the Chi Sau as the method of learning how to apply the techniques and method of gaining sensitivity as well as muscle memory for your reflexes.
> 
> WC of course looks best while sparring other WC practitioners that are using WC structure in free sparring and then becomes a bit less Chi Sau/WC  looking when they spar a different style/practitioner that has good outside game and reactions.
> 
> ...



My friend I am very familiar with Wing Chun.  I've studied three different versions!  I know how effective it can be.  What I was asking is how effective those particular pre-choreographed Chi Sau sections in LT's version of WT are as far as working against someone NOT doing Wing Chun.  ;-)


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## KPM (Aug 26, 2014)

*The sections are teaching you about LLHS - LSJC, about opening up lines of attack, about how to control via bridging, how to redirect force, how to affect structure, etc, etc, so these things should be universal - if you know the system well and you've trained it properly, you should be able to use what is inside the sections (the lessons they teach) against a boxer, a mantis guy, a karate dude, etc.

Edit: It goes without saying, of course, that you need the Gor Sau and Lat Sau to accompany the Chi Sau sections.*

--I see what you're saying.  But I'm wondering if just doing the Gor Sau & Lat Sau against partners feeding something other than Wing Chun might be more productive.  What you describe sounds like a pretty involved process to me.


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## Marnetmar (Aug 26, 2014)

In my school none of our chi sau is pre-arranged. I can see the use of a pre-arranged drill when the student _first begins to learn it_ though, so the student can get a better hold on what tool to use and where; it seems like it would speed up the learning process quite a bit.


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## Marnetmar (Aug 26, 2014)

Oh by the way, the guy in the video needs to keep his elbows in more  

(I wish the edit feature on this form didn't have a timer on it)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 26, 2014)

KPM said:


> What I was asking is how effective those particular pre-choreographed Chi Sau sections in LT's version of WT are as far as working against someone NOT doing Wing Chun.  ;-)



Allow me to take my WC hat off at this moment (I started my WC training since 1973). When I spar, the moment that my arm contact with my opponent's arm, 

if I put my

- striker hat on, I will bounce my opponent's arm away. This way, after I have collect enough information through the "bridge", I want to destroy that bridge ASAP so my opponent won't be able to collect any information from me.
- grappler hat on, my arm will be like a snake that wrap around on my opponent's arm.

Now, let me put my WC hat back on again. As a WC guy, how should I deal with these 2 situation? Does my solution exist in my WC Chi Shou training?


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## dlcox (Aug 27, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Allow me to take my WC hat off at this moment (I started my WC training since 1973). When I spar, the moment that my arm contact with my opponent's arm,
> 
> if I put my
> 
> ...



Hi John,

IMO you already have the solution. As far as I'm concerned the Striker/Grappler approach that you described can be done while engaged in Chi Shou, so why change your methodolgy to try and conform to anothers ideals of Chi Shou. Approach the strike as a grappler would and the grapple as a striker would.

*My Thoughts on Yong Chun / Chi Shou Practice

*One of the major problems with Yong Chun is the theories employed by the various lineages. Just like the 5 Element theory in TCM, I have yet to see two traditional practitioners agree on how the elements interact with the organs let alone see two charts from different schools that describe or correlate the same processes. Everyone has their own interpretation and everyone thinks that they are correct. So, just as no two schools of TCM approach the theory the same, no two schools of Yong Chun approach theory the same. I'm sure if I were to list the key words of my lineage that only 50% of the foundational theory would be in common with other branches. IMO there is no right or wrong or better than. Chi Shou is a very personal type of training that each practitioner needs to understand and make work for themselves. One should not blindly follow along a path they know is going in a direction that they have no faith in getting them to their destination. Some will play Chi Shou like a grappler, some a striker, some will approach it with a Taiji mind others a Xingyi mind. It all comes down to personal preference and what you can make work to get your desired results. Some practitioners will get it right away some won't, and as with all things, some will agree it is correct some will not. In the end the only thing that matters is if you can make it work to your advantage. The reason why so many fail in the application of their art is because they supress their natural response and try to conform to how they were taught to respond. We are individuals, with individual thought patterns and approach situations differently. Use the concepts, theories and principles in a way that you understand and works for you. Not in a way that is understood and works for the individual who taught it to you. No one lineage or person has all the answers, the best we can do is try, the worst we can do is fail. We can all learn from our triumphs as well as our failures. The foundation set forth by our teachers is only the beginning of our journey, at some point we need to leave the nest and explore the world on our own unimpeded by the regulation of those that reared us. This doesn't mean we abandon what we've been taught, but instead use that to forge our individuality. Evolution should first and foremost be a personal quest and the key lies in understanding of self. Too often have I seen just the opposite of this in Yong Chun, propogated by individuals who want nothing more than to supress and control those who do not agree with their understanding. The reasons why, I'm sure, are numerous. At some point we must "_Graduate_" and start applying what was learned in the field of work we choose to make a "_Living_" in.


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## BPWT (Aug 27, 2014)

KPM said:


> I see what you're saying.  But I'm wondering if just doing the Gor Sau & Lat Sau against partners feeding something other than Wing Chun might be more productive.  What you describe sounds like a pretty involved process to me.



It certainly would be productive to do as you say, and you're right also in saying that the process we have in the LT system is "involved." 

But before I came to the LT system, I trained another Yip Man lineage system. They had no sections, though you did learn a few basic Chi Sau partner drills. After that, it was all about playing freely (Gor Sau). 

To be sure, some of those guys were pretty good. Still, I felt there was something lacking in the Chi Sau there. People who were higher graded than I was, were better than me (duh! ). But I always wondered _how much better_: they did exactly what I did when Chi Sau'ing (so pretty basic attacks and an over-reliance on Bong/Lap  ), only they had more experience with it than I did.

From meeting some LTWT guys, and doing some Chi Sau with them... well, for me it was like chalk and cheese. They seemed to have a far better understanding of using their system's principles and body methods in their Chi Sau (and also in their Lat Sau, of course). The forms are full of so many things (techniques/motions, body methods, concepts), and the WT guys seemed to be able to use that in their Chi Sau. And use it fairly instinctively as an exchange developed.

In my earlier group/organisation I was at Chum Kiu level (knew the form, kinda sucked at it), but when I Chi Sau'd with that group's instructors (who also knew Biu Tse and the Dummy and had far more experience with CK), none of that knowledge seemed to come out. 

Doing well against them in Gor Sau was a nice stroke to the ego, LOL, but I always had this nagging thought - I knew that I shouldn't be doing quite so well against them. If I've trained for say 3 years, and they've trained for 7 or 8 years... things should be far from fairly evenly matched in Chi Sau (IMO).


So I agree that it is not an absolute requirement to have sections like the ones LT came up with, but they do offer something really valuable - they make sure that students are understanding how to use what is in the forms when they Chi Sau. 

Of course, the sections are largely WT vs WT. To me that isn't really too much of a problem. At a Chris Collins seminar last year he made an interesting point. Essentially he was saying that when you Chi Sau don't worry too much about what a boxer would do, or a Silat guy, or a Karate guy. You're a Wing Tsun guy, so focus on using your system. An open line of attack is an open line of attack - regardless of who is in front of you. A bridge is a bridge. Keeping forward pressure and intent should be used whomever you are fighting. But, essentially, the Chi Sau sections are not about as-is applications you would try and use specifically against a certain attack (or a certain type of attacker - e.g. a right cross from a boxer). They are more about understanding how you use your Wing Tsun.


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## KPM (Aug 27, 2014)

Good answer!  Thanks BPWT!  :cheers:


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## yak sao (Aug 27, 2014)

BPWT said:


> when you Chi Sau don't worry too much about what a boxer would do, or a Silat guy, or a Karate guy. You're a Wing Tsun guy, so focus on using your system. An open line of attack is an open line of attack - regardless of who is in front of you. A bridge is a bridge. Keeping forward pressure and intent should be used whomever you are fighting. But, essentially, the Chi Sau sections are not about as-is applications you would try and use specifically against a certain attack (or a certain type of attacker - e.g. a right cross from a boxer). They are more about understanding how you use your Wing Tsun.




Very well put.

Now the trick becomes getting away from a stylistic movement. In other words, stop thinking about WT as a "style" of fighting. WT is not using a tan sau or a bong sau, if you do it this way then you are taking something that was meant to be fluid, vibrant action and making it a dead technique.
Which swings me back to my original post. The sections are an excellent teaching method. They teach your body how to move and apply/dissolve forces placed upon it. Where people mess up is they stop with the sections and become so engrossed in them that they stay on the diving board instead of using them to spring into the pool and swim.


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## dlcox (Aug 27, 2014)

Don't know if anyone else does this or not so if you do please feel free to chime in.

Some free drills I like to do in Chi Shou are:

1. Chi Shou with focus only on trapping, no other techniques permitted.

2. Chi Shou with focus on throwing, no other techniques permitted.

3. Chi Shou with focus on locking, no other techniques permitted.

4. Chi Shou with focus on striking, no other techniques permitted.

I find that by breaking it apart that it still allows for all the same work defensively but forces the practitioner to work specific offenses in which they may be deficient in and defenses for that matter. I will also break this down further and only allow 1, 2 or 3 specific techniques to be applied. I find this to be especially useful when a student is learning a new technique as it allows equal opportunity for veteran vs. newbie students without all the extra "noise" being displayed. Usually this is engaged from the Ya Yao  (Twisting Waist) exercise. Once they have a feel for the techniques; ex: 2 throws, 2 locks, 2 traps, 2 strikes, I have them engage in free form Chi Shou using only those techniques. It's a fun way to break things up and I feel it's a a nice progression towards "Anything Goes" Chi Shou and makes the practitioner focus on a way to make the technique/application work for them without having to worry about a surprise elbow, knee etc. that isn't allowed in the series coming in.


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## Danny T (Aug 27, 2014)

yak sao said:


> Now the trick becomes getting away from a stylistic movement. In other words, stop thinking about WT as a "style" of fighting.



BOOM!! Stop thinking about WT as a "style" of fighting. 
WT/WC is a training method. A method of learning about yourself, your body, your usage of your body. It Is NOT a style of fighting. Once you learn to use your body the how you do so is up to the individual. If you use a Tan to deflect or a Jut is all dependent upon what you feel, what is the relationship between you and the opponent/s. How you survive is all up to you and no one particular method.
Chi Sao is but one learning tool with in the WC pedagogy and it is important just as learning footwork is important, just as learning body positioning and to give and receive pressure is important. 
We use different levels to train Chi Sao. Learning the roll and what causes it. Creating the pressure, learning to receive and deflect the pressure, Learning to feel the openings within the movements and positions. Learning to attack the openings. Learning to counter and counter-attack the attacks; and so on.

Train the method, practice the method, understand the method, move beyond the method.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 27, 2014)

dlcox said:


> Wow tough to describe in a few words. In Ruan family we use 3 formats. Single Sticking Hands to Rolling Hands to Circling Hands. There are many preparation drills prior to each section. Each is based on the 3 families Tan, Fu & Bang. Once one learns proper structure, bridge usage and theory they progress through the formats. There are no real cycles to speak of as I like to keep it spontaneous and organic. I think this makes the student focus more on structure, theory and practical use as compared to coreographed sequences that turn in slap fighting. It admittedly takes longer to learn and there is a tendency for students to muscle the technique, but the trade off is practicality under heavy duress. Just as with everything else the more it is drilled the more sensitivity and finesse is developed. Ruan family is about what you learn today you use today. It follows an older mind set on training of learning realistic practical movement first then work towards polishing. It is cruder and not as pretty as some other branches of chi shou that I've seen but IMO just as effective. It looks similar to hand fighting in grappling. As time progresses one learns when to yield or press as needed along with subtle structure checks and manipulations. I would classify Ruan family as Iron Bridge style, not unlike a cross between Hongjia and Taijiquan. It is definately like Iron Wire tension, which is required for the heavy grappling aspect. More constricter than viper. All formats start stationary then progress to moving.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At first I did not understand what Ruan was. Another spelling of Yuan. I now have a better sense of what you do.
A good friend of mine is Vietnamese. he knows both Northern and Southern Yuen Kay Shan's older brothers
 wing chun but shifted and learned very good Ip man wing chun.


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## KPM (Aug 27, 2014)

dlcox said:


> Don't know if anyone else does this or not so if you do please feel free to chime in.
> 
> Some free drills I like to do in Chi Shou are:
> 
> .



Hey Dave!

Can you describe the basic rolling platform you use?  I'm wondering if it is the same as the Ip Man rolling or is more similar to what we do in Pin Sun.


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## kung fu fighter (Aug 27, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> A good friend of mine is Vietnamese. he knows both Northern and Southern Yuen Kay Shan's older brothers
> wing chun but shifted and learned very good Ip man wing chun.



Joy are you referring to Kiet Pham?


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## dlcox (Aug 27, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> At first I did not understand what Ruan was. Another spelling of Yuan. I now have a better sense of what you do.
> A good friend of mine is Vietnamese. he knows both Northern and Southern Yuen Kay Shan's older brothers
> wing chun but shifted and learned very good Ip man wing chun.



Hi Joy,

Sorry didn't mean to confuse anyone. I prefer using Pinyin because of my northern background, by the way, thanks for the dig at my art, I hope that wasn't intended as it came across.


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## dlcox (Aug 27, 2014)

KPM said:


> Hey Dave!
> 
> Can you describe the basic rolling platform you use?  I'm wondering if it is the same as the Ip Man rolling or is more similar to what we do in Pin Sun.



My basic rolling platform is one person assumes the Tan & Bang positions the other double Fu positions, the same as Ip Man. I think that my circling hand platform my be the same as Pin Sun's rolling hand position, just named differently. The hand positions are various combinations of "Sickle Hands", double inside, double outside, left in & out, right in & out. Similar to SPM seeking hands, I believe it is quite close to the Pin Sun platform from what I've seen.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 27, 2014)

dlcox said:


> Hi Joy,
> 
> Sorry didn't mean to confuse anyone. I prefer using Pinyin because of my northern background, by the way, thanks for the dig at my art, I hope that wasn't intended as it came across.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No dig intended at all.. The internet is tone and nuance deaf. creating imptessions that are not necessarily true.


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## geezer (Aug 27, 2014)

yak sao said:


> For those of you who don't know me, I train in the Leung Ting lineage of Wing Tsun, though I am no longer affiliated with his organization.
> LT Wing Tsun teaches chi sau by way of sections. These are prearranged 2 man sets that are designed to teach the student chi sau...
> 
> Having come from this method of training, I have naturally taught this to my students, but now I'm beginning to think that maybe it's time for a change, at least in my little corner of the world.
> ...



Yak, I've been pondering the same question. The basic concept of the "Chi-Sau Sections" is sound. It's a lot like learning a foreign language by practicing prepared dialogues. It's a tried and proven way to practice vocabulary, grammar and syntax, but it will only take you so far.  

I knew kids back in my high school Spanish classes that could actually memorize batches of these dialogues perfectly. I could never do that. But when we actually went to Mexico, I was with the kids who played stick-ball with a group of Mexican kids our age, snuck off and got beer and cigarettes (this was the 70s after all), and went on a date with a Mexican girl. On the other hand, some of those A students with the perfect "dialogues" never got the hang of imperfect but functional communication. 

I think Chi Sau is a lot like a verbal exchange, ranging from having a polite conversation,  a lively debate or even a heated argument. Too much emphasis on prepared dialogues as compared to functional communication may be counterproductive.

So when it comes to Chi Sau, yes, I still teach the basic sections, but I try to simplify. Over the years, LT, KK and others have added on so many additional sessions and movement-counter movement cycles that it is honestly beyond me to keep it all straight in my head. Maybe that approach works better over in Europe where there are tons of schools and instructors who can all work together. Personally, I'm more interested in simple functionality.

BTW for those of you unfamiliar with Leung Ting's choreographed Chi-Sau training drills or "sections" here is an example posted by some guys who are not in LT's organization, but who show it pretty much as I learned it from LT:






Somehow these instructors seemed familiar. What do you think?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 27, 2014)

dlcox said:


> I prefer using Pinyin because of my northern background,


Same here!

You have to kill me in order to force me to use "Sau" instead of to use "Shou". :burp:


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## yak sao (Aug 27, 2014)

geezer said:


> I knew kids back in my high school Spanish classes that could actually memorize batches of these dialogues perfectly. I could never do that. But when we actually went to Mexico, I was with the kids who played stick-ball with a group of Mexican kids our age, snuck off and got beer and cigarettes (this was the 70s after all), and went on a date with a Mexican girl. On the other hand, some of those A students with the perfect "dialogues" never got the hang of imperfect but functional communication.



You know, to be fair, those same kids probably weren't getting many dates back home either


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## dlcox (Aug 27, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> No dig intended at all.. The internet is tone and nuance deaf. creating imptessions that are not necessarily true.



Thank you for the clarification Joy, I appreciate it.

I would be curious to know why your friend decided to switch methods. I could make assumptions based on the history of the Vietnamese line as it can be quite suspect, but would like to hear it instead of speculate.


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## yak sao (Aug 27, 2014)

geezer said:


> Yak, I've been pondering the same question. The basic concept of the "Chi-Sau Sections" is sound. It's a lot like learning a foreign language by practicing prepared dialogues. It's a tried and proven way to practice vocabulary, grammar and syntax, but it will only take you so far.
> 
> I knew kids back in my high school Spanish classes that could actually memorize batches of these dialogues perfectly. I could never do that. But when we actually went to Mexico, I was with the kids who played stick-ball with a group of Mexican kids our age, snuck off and got beer and cigarettes (this was the 70s after all), and went on a date with a Mexican girl. On the other hand, some of those A students with the perfect "dialogues" never got the hang of imperfect but functional communication.
> 
> ...



Simplification really is the key point. As much respect as I have for LT's and KK's knowledge and ability, I think so much of what they developed was about creating a need so that it could be filled.
The original simplicity of the sections were enough, I think, to get people moving in the right direction.

By always having more and more for them to learn, people become hooked on the "Wing Tsun drug", as I've heard LT put it, and keep coming back for a fix.


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## geezer (Aug 27, 2014)

yak sao said:


> simplification really is the key point. As much respect as i have for lt's and kk's knowledge and ability, i think so much of what they developed was about creating a need so that it could be filled.
> The original simplicity of the sections were enough, i think, to get people moving in the right direction.
> 
> By always having more and more for them to learn, people become hooked on the "wing tsun drug", as i've heard lt put it, and keep coming back for a fix.



_Yes!!!_


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## BPWT (Aug 28, 2014)

yak sao said:


> The original simplicity of the sections were enough, I think, to get people moving in the right direction. By always having more and more for them to learn, people become hooked on the "Wing Tsun drug", as I've heard LT put it, and keep coming back for a fix.



In the Leung Ting system there has always been an antidote to this Wing Tsun Drug, always been a way to see through the over-complication that sometimes develops. His name is Cheng Chuen Fun.  [h=3][/h]


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## KPM (Aug 28, 2014)

yak sao said:


> Simplification really is the key point. As much respect as I have for LT's and KK's knowledge and ability, I think so much of what they developed was about creating a need so that it could be filled.
> The original simplicity of the sections were enough, I think, to get people moving in the right direction.
> 
> By always having more and more for them to learn, people become hooked on the "Wing Tsun drug", as I've heard LT put it, and keep coming back for a fix.



Coming from a version of Wing Chun where simplification is one of the primary points of the whole thing....I can appreciate your comment.  ;-)    If you've been following what I've been saying about Chi Sau on various recent threads, this is the idea behind how we approach Chi Sau.   The more complicated it gets, the less realistic and less applicable it can get.


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## yak sao (Aug 28, 2014)

BPWT said:


> In the Leung Ting system there has always been an antidote to this Wing Tsun Drug, always been a way to see through the over-complication that sometimes develops. His name is Cheng Chuen Fun.



I have never had the honor of meeting him. He comes across as such a hard *** in all the books but seeing what few videos they have of him on youtube and talking with people who have met him, they say he is one of the most genuinely nice people you will ever meet.
Have you had the opportunity to train with him?


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## yak sao (Aug 28, 2014)

KPM said:


> Coming from a version of Wing Chun where simplification is one of the primary points of the whole thing....I can appreciate your comment.  ;-)    If you've been following what I've been saying about Chi Sau on various recent threads, this is the idea behind how we approach Chi Sau.   The more complicated it gets, the less realistic and less applicable it can get.



And that's what gripes me about the whole Wing Tsun juggernaut.  They have taken something so simple and elegant and piled so much on top of it that it has become cumbersome and almost clumsy.
I know LT says that the goal of the sections is to ultimately forget them and move on, but I see too many people being trapped in them instead of being freed by them.....but then you could probably say that about wing chun/wing tsun as a whole.


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## BPWT (Aug 28, 2014)

yak sao said:


> Have you had the opportunity to train with him?



Met, but there was no time for training, sadly. But soon, I hope  Interesting, most of the names in Hong Kong from the LT line learned from LT but attended classes run by Cheng Chuen Fun. (so the likes of Carson Lau, Kwok Wah Leung, Chris Collins, Tam Yiu Ming, etc)




yak sao said:


> I know LT says that the goal of the sections is to ultimately forget them and move on...


Yes, just a starting point. :highfive:




yak sao said:


> ...but I see too many people being trapped in them instead of being freed by them.



The problem is that being 'trapped in them' offers a nice comfort zone. Stepping outside of them and testing if you can actually use what is in the sections (the principles and methods), especially for some instructors, takes them out of that comfort zone. 

 Which is ironic, seeing as that's where you actually learn.


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## geezer (Aug 28, 2014)

BPWT, you mentioned some great WTers. If I ever win the lottery, I'd love to train with Cheng Sifu, as well as Carson Lau and Chris Collins. Interestingly, they have all left LT's organization. In fact a couple of years back when Carson went out on his own, I got a call from one of my old si-dais in San Antonio asking if I wanted to join up with him in  Carson's new organization. I explained that as much as I would like the opportunity to train with Carson, I am quite content with the guy I train under now. 

What's too bad is that it seems like you always have to join up _exclusively_ with one group or another. Heck, if I could afford it, I'd like to get input from _all_ of these guys. And Sifu Maday too. -- even though he is one scary SOB!


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## BPWT (Aug 28, 2014)

geezer said:


> BPWT, you mentioned some great WTers. If I ever win the lottery, I'd love to train with Cheng Sifu, as well as Carson Lau and Chris Collins.



If you win the lottery, remember that _sharing is caring_ . So don't forget your forum friends. 

You know, I'm pretty sure that Carson Lau would come visit your group to give a seminar. He came to Hungary to give a seminar to an independent group (a group that left the HWTO). And I know for sure that Chris has visited the US (returned home) and given seminars. I can't recommend Chris enough... I attend his seminars and train with people from his organisation. It kinda opened my eyes. 




geezer said:


> Interestingly, they have all left LT's organization.



Yes, it seems (to me) that in the end, people often decide to go their own way - look to have more control over their direction. More interesting, I think, is that while we often hear about 'rebels' and people being bad-mouthed when they leave the IWTA, I know that Cheng Chuen Fun, Kwok Wah Leung, Chris Collins and Tam Yiu Ming don't have bad relationships with Leung Ting. Indeed, Cheng Chuen Fun visits Leung Ting on special calendar days - I think he said something along the lines of "we're like an old married couple." 

And Tam Yiu Ming visits LT every time he goes back to HK (a few times a year, I think).



geezer said:


> And Sifu Maday too. -- even though he is one scary SOB!



For me, within the IWTA in Europe, Maday Norbert is probably the best out there in terms of sheer kick-****-ary.  He is _intense_ - and scary. Though the later is not always a good thing, IMO. There are many things I like about the HWTO... but... my training needs are better met via the Hong Kong-based guys, I think.  That said, I meet with HWTO guys regularly to practise 'off the books'.


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