# A thought about philosophy in the martial arts.



## PhotonGuy

Here is a thought and I will explain how it pertains to the martial arts, at a philosophical level. Lets say you've got the distance of a mile to cover. You can walk the mile or you can run it. Running the mile is harder work than walking it but you get to your destination quicker so you save time. Walking is easier than running so by walking the mile you don't have to work as hard, but you don't finish it as soon, so what would you do?


----------



## Steve

PhotonGuy said:


> Here is a thought and I will explain how it pertains to the martial arts, at a philosophical level. Lets say you've got the distance of a mile to cover. You can walk the mile or you can run it. Running the mile is harder work than walking it but you get to your destination quicker so you save time. Walking is easier than running so by walking the mile you don't have to work as hard, but you don't finish it as soon, so what would you do?


What is most important, the journey or the destination?


----------



## stickarts

It would depend upon my goal. Am I trying to get into good cardio shape, am I enjoying the scenery, or am I getting chased by something.


----------



## donald1

it's It depends on the circumstances,  why am I going down that mile,  am I just going to the store to buy something or home to sit and relax ill walk and take my time.  If it's an emergency or exercise ill run.  I don't see how martial arts ties into this maybe comparison.  What's the philosophy,  is the moral part of philosophy perhaps the person knows he/she needs to get from a to be,  (a to b being the mile)  perhaps the person knows he needs to get to b but isn't concerned enough to be in a hurry as opposed to the person running because he she knows it's important 

I'm not sure what you mean but this is my guess,  what specifically do you mean?


----------



## PhotonGuy

OK lets say you're running a race, and its a mile long race.


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> OK lets say you're running a race, and its a mile long race.



Then its a running race, which in dictates it is a competition and there is no philosophical question beyond whether or not you want to win or lose and walking is not an option. This also could imply that you have been training to run prior to entering the race.


----------



## donald1

In a race people get tired and if the person got tired halfway through the race he can decide to do the easy give up which would be the wrong thing or keep going endure the pain and keep going 

And some races are very competitive and some not so much.  Some people are very competitive and only care about winning(nothing less is good will do whatever it takes maybe even cheat)  and now if person a is racing he can decide to cheat; he gets a trophy,  the honor of winning and if there's a team with that player they are happy to thus several people are happy so some might say he cheated but more people are happy so it was a good idea but others will say cheating is still wrong.  If the person didn't cheat it might be the opposite outcome


----------



## Dirty Dog

There's nothing remotely philosophical about this. It's a race. That means you cover the distance in the shortest time possible. That may mean saving some energy for a final sprint, or it may mean sprinting early to get out in front of the pack. But that is tactics. Not philosophy.


----------



## donald1

For the most part not particularly


----------



## PhotonGuy

Here is how the philosophy fits in. In the martial arts, I've heard the story about the student who wanted to get really good at the art he was training in. His instructor said it would take ten years. He said he would train really hard and push himself. The instructor said it would take twenty years. The idea that running a mile as opposed to walking it would take you twice as long to finish it is absurd, obviously running it will get you done with it sooner. So, the idea that working harder at a martial art will take you twice as long to reach a certain level of expertise, that is more or less saying the same thing.


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> Here is how the philosophy fits in. In the martial arts, I've heard the story about the student who wanted to get really good at the art he was training in. His instructor said it would take ten years. He said he would train really hard and push himself. The instructor said it would take twenty years. The idea that running a mile as opposed to walking it would take you twice as long to finish it is absurd, obviously running it will get you done with it sooner. So, the idea that working harder at a martial art will take you twice as long to reach a certain level of expertise, that is more or less saying the same thing.



No its not, the comparison is not even remotely close. You train to run a race not walk it and if you do not train and enter a race you will lose. You seem to be saying learning martial arts is a race and it isn't. It does not matter how fast you get there or who gets there first. Also he is not telling him to not work hard, he is however saying there is more to it than hard work.


You are missing the point of the story. 

The teacher is not telling him to walk, he is telling him not to rush, he is telling him to focus on the training not the result because focusing on the result you will miss what you are doing right now possibly missing some pretty important stuff along the way because you are in a hurry. and if you are not able to achieve your goal in the time you feel you should you will get discouraged and quit.Not all things can be, or should be, done in a hurry and not all things can be learned at the speed you wish to learn them. Promising someone they can master anything, especially a martial art in a year, 2 years or 10 years is a promise you cannot keep because no 2 people are alike.

Here is the story



> A young man went to visit an old master, looking to train under him. When he met with the master, the man said to him "I wish to train under you and become a great master. How long must I train?". The Master replied "10 years". The man thought for a moment, then said "10 years is a long time, what if I train twice as hard as your other students. How long must I train then?". The Master then replied "20 years". The man then exclaimed "20 years!? What if I train every day and night as hard as I can?". The Master then replied "30 years". The man, dumbfounded by this, asked "Why is it every time I say I will train harder, you say it will take longer?", and with that, the Master replied "Because if you have one eye fixed on a goal, then you have only one eye left with which to seek the way".



You seem to be missing this last bit



> "Because if you have one eye fixed on a goal, then you have only one eye left with which to seek the way


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Here is how the philosophy fits in. In the martial arts, I've heard the story about the student who wanted to get really good at the art he was training in. His instructor said it would take ten years. He said he would train really hard and push himself. The instructor said it would take twenty years. The idea that running a mile as opposed to walking it would take you twice as long to finish it is absurd, obviously running it will get you done with it sooner. So, the idea that working harder at a martial art will take you twice as long to reach a certain level of expertise, that is more or less saying the same thing.



This story has nothing to do with the race in your original post. In a race, you have one goal: be first to finish. 
A race has nothing to do with philosophy, MA training, or this story. 
The point if the story is that being focused on an outcome (say...an unhealthy obsession  with belt color) will detract from your training. As has been said innumerable times (and you obviously don't get the message, since you keep trying to find new ways to ask the same thing): focus on training. The rest is irrelevant. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Tgace

What do I have to do when I arrive?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## PhotonGuy

The mile distance was meant to be metaphorical. It represents a job you have to do. When you do a job, usually if not always your boss will expect you to do it within a certain time. While you shouldn't rush through it and thus possibly do a bad job, you do need to be aware of finishing it within a given time period, otherwise you might lose your job. 

The same concept can apply to the student training under the master. Lets say the student has a time period in which he wants to become a great master, so he wants to achieve his goal and part of the goal is to do it within a certain time limit.


----------



## drop bear

My view is it relates exactly to the mile race. If you put more work in you will get to that mile quicker than if you don't.

Running will be faster than walking and you will be fitter at the end of it.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

PhotonGuy said:


> part of the goal is to do it within a certain time limit.



In MA training, if you have to force yourself, you will quite someday. You train MA because you enjoy of doing it. This way, when you are 80, you will still enjoy your MA training. You should not set any time limit for yourself. 

When I was young, I committed myself to spend 10 years to develop my "head lock". Everyday I forced myself to hang on the pole for at least 1 hour everyday (break it apart in many sessions). Oneday I stopped watching the time. I just did it until I no longer enjoined of doing it. Today, I have spent more than 35 years on my "head lock" development and I'm still working on it everyday.

The most important thing is "will you still enjoy of doing it again tomorrow, day after tomorrow, the next day, and ...?"


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> The mile distance was meant to be metaphorical. It represents a job you have to do. When you do a job, usually if not always your boss will expect you to do it within a certain time. While you shouldn't rush through it and thus possibly do a bad job, you do need to be aware of finishing it within a given time period, otherwise you might lose your job.
> 
> The same concept can apply to the student training under the master. Lets say the student has a time period in which he wants to become a great master, so he wants to achieve his goal and part of the goal is to do it within a certain time limit.



The problem with that is you are switching perspectives first and for that to make sense you would have to say

_



			It represents a job you have to do. When you do a job, usually if not always you expect you to do it within a certain time. While you shouldn't rush through it and thus possibly do a bad job, you do need to be aware of finishing it within a given time period. 

 The same concept can apply to the student training under the master. Lets say the student has a time period in which he wants to become a great master, so he wants to achieve his goal and part of the goal is to do it within a certain time limit
		
Click to expand...

_
the way you worded it, in the first example you are saying the time is set by your boss and you have to follow. In your second example you are saying the student sets the time limit, not the master who would equate to the boss

Another way to make your analogy work 

_



			It represents a job you have to do. When you do a job, usually if not always your boss will expect you to do it within a certain time. While you shouldn't rush through it and thus possibly do a bad job, you do need to be aware of finishing it within a given time period, otherwise you might lose your job. 

 The same concept can apply to the student training under the master. Lets say the master has a time period in which he wants for you to become a great master, so he wants you to achieve his goal and part of the goal is to do it within a certain time limit and if you fail he kicks you out
		
Click to expand...


_Basically you are now looking for ways to be right when you are missing the point and do not understand what the story is saying.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> The mile distance was meant to be metaphorical. It represents a job you have to do. When you do a job, usually if not always your boss will expect you to do it within a certain time. While you shouldn't rush through it and thus possibly do a bad job, you do need to be aware of finishing it within a given time period, otherwise you might lose your job.
> 
> The same concept can apply to the student training under the master. Lets say the student has a time period in which he wants to become a great master, so he wants to achieve his goal and part of the goal is to do it within a certain time limit.



As with every other time you've approached this exact same issue (albeit with different wording each time -belt ranks, Boy Scouts and foot races) you're focused on the belt rather than the training. 
Get over it. Frankly, I wouldn't promote a student who (like you) was focused on the belt instead of the training. 
We have one who has made it to 3rd geup. She won't be promoting again until she grows enough to realize that it's the training, not the belt, that matters. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Tgace

I think the whole race metaphor is flawed...races have a finish line.

If a belt/title is seen as a goal you are in for a let down once you get them. 

The only finish line any of us really has is death....

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## donald1

I don't think I like that kind of finish line but true though,  dirty dog does have a point though.  The belt isn't important,  it's the experience and skill through training.  That's the only part that matters if you are at a certain level of training that is what matters and some styles give belts to show other people that you have been recognized as that skill level.  A belt only serves two purposes; to show someone has earned an amount of skill through training(but you don't need a belt to know you are skilled)  and to hold up your pants.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In MA training, if you have to force yourself, you will quite someday. You train MA because you enjoy of doing it. This way, when you are 80, you will still enjoy your MA training. You should not set any time limit for yourself.
> 
> When I was young, I committed myself to spend 10 years to develop my "head lock". Everyday I forced myself to hang on the pole for at least 1 hour everyday (break it apart in many sessions). Oneday I stopped watching the time. I just did it until I no longer enjoined of doing it. Today, I have spent more than 35 years on my "head lock" development and I'm still working on it everyday.
> 
> The most important thing is "will you still enjoy of doing it again tomorrow, day after tomorrow, the next day, and ...?"



I have to force myself. By forcing myself that's how I improve and not just with martial arts but anything I choose to pursue. That's what taking on a challenge is all about. Sometimes we choose to make things hard because we want things to be hard, we want a good challenge. Even with stuff such as video games, a fun pastime of mine, I would sometimes play it on "hard" because I want the challenge. If I don't challenge myself I get bored with what Im doing. As a coach once said that in practice you've got to push yourself to your limit, and you've got to go a little bit beyond that limit, and this wasn't even a martial arts coach who said that it was a swimming coach, but the same concept can be applied to anything. I've got to push myself and take on challenges, otherwise I would be a "bump on a log," and that's not something I would be satisfied with.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> As with every other time you've approached this exact same issue (albeit with different wording each time -belt ranks, Boy Scouts and foot races) you're focused on the belt rather than the training.
> Get over it. Frankly, I wouldn't promote a student who (like you) was focused on the belt instead of the training.
> We have one who has made it to 3rd geup. She won't be promoting again until she grows enough to realize that it's the training, not the belt, that matters.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.



In this thread I never said anything about belts. As for your student who you say won't be promoted until she realizes its the training that matters, in most dojos you get to certain levels, belts or otherwise, by obtaining a certain level of skill. It takes patience to get to a certain rank or skill level because of the time it takes to get there, you aren't going to be there on day one. Once a student has obtained the required level of skill I see no reason not to promote them, after all they've shown they have patience in the time it took to get their skills up, so that's where the patience comes in.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> the way you worded it, in the first example you are saying the time is set by your boss and you have to follow. In your second example you are saying the student sets the time limit, not the master who would equate to the boss


Just about all instructors leave it up to the student to decide how quickly they want to improve. A student who wants to improve faster will work harder. The more the student puts into it the faster they improve. My point about time limits is that for most of the things we do we've got time limits in which to do them. Those time limits can be put in place by somebody else such as a boss or they can be put in place by yourself. 

And a thing about Americans. Americans tend to be goal oriented. That is how the American culture is different from the Asian culture where that story about the master telling the student that the more he focuses on the goal, the longer it will take for him to reach it.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> Once a student has obtained the required level of skill I see no reason not to promote them,.



And thats why you dont get it


----------



## PhotonGuy

donald1 said:


> I don't think I like that kind of finish line but true though,  dirty dog does have a point though.  The belt isn't important,  it's the experience and skill through training.  That's the only part that matters if you are at a certain level of training that is what matters and some styles give belts to show other people that you have been recognized as that skill level.  A belt only serves two purposes; to show someone has earned an amount of skill through training(but you don't need a belt to know you are skilled)  and to hold up your pants.



The belt itself isn't so important. After getting a certain belt that you've been working for, black belt or whatever, you can hang it up on the wall or for that matter throw it in the closet. The important thing is that you've reached a certain level of expertise under a certain sensei. Whether you think its worth it or not is up to the student. I wouldn't be satisfied getting a high belt under a sensei that hands it out or for that matter sells it, I would want to get it from a sensei that would make me earn it. Then I would know I've achieved something under an instructor who sets high standards but it is by no means the end. It is the beginning of the next level.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tgace said:


> I think the whole race metaphor is flawed...races have a finish line.
> 
> If a belt/title is seen as a goal you are in for a let down once you get them.
> 
> The only finish line any of us really has is death....
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



The belt/title is a goal but it is not the goal. The overall goal is to keep getting better no matter how good you are. To see the belt or title as the ultimate goal would be a letdown once you get it, but it is not the ultimate goal, it is just the beginning although I see it as an important step.


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> And thats why you dont get it



What don't I get?


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> In this thread I never said anything about belts. As for your student who you say won't be promoted until she realizes its the training that matters, in most dojos you get to certain levels, belts or otherwise, by obtaining a certain level of skill. It takes patience to get to a certain rank or skill level because of the time it takes to get there, you aren't going to be there on day one. Once a student has obtained the required level of skill I see no reason not to promote them, after all they've shown they have patience in the time it took to get their skills up, so that's where the patience comes in.



Rewording it (belts, Boy Scouts, Foot races) doesn't change that fact that you're doing nothing other than bringing up the same issue every time. It's the same issue, and the answer is the same. Get over it. Stop focusing on the belt and maybe, just MAYBE you'll get somewhere.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> What don't I get?



Oh my. 

If you got it, there wouldn't be so many threads open, all started by you, all on the same issue.


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> Just about all instructors leave it up to the student to decide how quickly they want to improve. A student who wants to improve faster will work harder. The more the student puts into it the faster they improve. My point about time limits is that for most of the things we do we've got time limits in which to do them. Those time limits can be put in place by somebody else such as a boss or they can be put in place by yourself. .



Well yes and no. I've been training this MA stuff for over 49 years and I have had multiple teachers and although it is true that the more you put in the more you put out it is always the teacher that decided when you are ready for something, not the student.  I found a long time a go that a good teacher knows what you are ready for before you do and things get a lot easier when you shut up, listen and train. And there are no time limits in MA (period) only self imposed time limits... so what do you do when a teacher says you are not good enough train harder and it is going beyond your self-imposed time limits. And if anyone, absolutely anyone, who is teaching you guarantees you a rank or mastery in a predetermined period of time, walk away because they are only interested in your money. 



PhotonGuy said:


> And a thing about Americans. Americans tend to be goal oriented. That is how the American culture is different from the Asian culture where that story about the master telling the student that the more he focuses on the goal, the longer it will take for him to reach it.



Yeah I grew up in American culture, but I train in a Asian one and it has been my experience that as soon as you decide y9u are not going to take the time to understand something and instead change it to your ideas it is no longer what it was and many times that results in something less than what it once was *see belt factories and 10 years old black belts)




PhotonGuy said:


> What don't I get?



I'm not ballen but reread what I posted because I already told you that .Now you can come up with as many scenarios and change them any way you want to try and come out right on this but you never will....good luck to you in your training...you'll need it.... for the record I tend to agree with Dirty Dog here, that is if I trained and art that used belts,  I wouldn't promote a student who (like you) was focused on the belt instead of the training.

I also recommend you stay away form traditional Chinese martial arts because it has no belt ranks... and no time limits


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Oh my.
> 
> If you got it, there wouldn't be so many threads open, all started by you, all on the same issue.



Well if you're getting tired of my posts you don't have to respond to them.


----------



## donald1

PhotonGuy said:


> The belt itself isn't so important. After getting a certain belt that you've been working for, black belt or whatever, you can hang it up on the wall or for that matter throw it in the closet. The important thing is that you've reached a certain level of expertise under a certain sensei. Whether you think its worth it or not is up to the student. I wouldn't be satisfied getting a high belt under a sensei that hands it out or for that matter sells it, I would want to get it from a sensei that would make me earn it. Then I would know I've achieved something under an instructor who sets high standards but it is by no means the end. It is the beginning of the next level.



Afcoarse,  it's good to want to train with a good teacher.  A teacher that doesn't teach has students who can't use proper techniques.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> Well yes and no. I've been training this MA stuff for over 49 years and I have had multiple teachers and although it is true that the more you put in the more you put out it is always the teacher that decided when you are ready for something, not the student.  I found a long time a go that a good teacher knows what you are ready for before you do and things get a lot easier when you shut up, listen and train. And there are no time limits in MA (period) only self imposed time limits... so what do you do when a teacher says you are not good enough train harder and it is going beyond your self-imposed time limits. And if anyone, absolutely anyone, who is teaching you guarantees you a rank or mastery in a predetermined period of time, walk away because they are only interested in your money.


 The student can influence when the teacher would decide if he's ready for something. For instance, a student that does put more in will improve faster and thus the teacher might decide he's ready for something sooner. And Im not necessarily talking about rank, it could be learning a new technique or techniques and so forth.

And I wouldn't train under somebody who guaranteed me a certain level in a certain amount of time. And I don't necessarily mean rank with this either. A teacher who guarantees I will reach a certain skill level in a certain time I wouldn't trust because its really up to the student. The more the student puts into it the faster they improve. Even if the teacher decides when the student is ready for something, like I said, the student can influence that decision.



Xue Sheng said:


> Yeah I grew up in American culture, but I train in a Asian one and it has been my experience that as soon as you decide y9u are not going to take the time to understand something and instead change it to your ideas it is no longer what it was and many times that results in something less than what it once was *see belt factories and 10 years old black belts)


In the martial arts, ultimately you do change it to your ideas. That's why there is a martial art for every martial artist. The roots of the martial arts comes from your instructor but ultimately the martial arts comes from inside you. Eventually you do it your own way. And I never said I approved of belt factories. In fact, quite the opposite. I think belts should be earned but a student should know what they need to do to get to their next belt and if they aren't clear they should ask. That shouldn't be seen as disrespectful, to simply clarify something.



Xue Sheng said:


> I'm not ballen but reread what I posted because I already told you that .Now you can come up with as many scenarios and change them any way you want to try and come out right on this but you never will....good luck to you in your training...you'll need it.... for the record I tend to agree with Dirty Dog here, that is if I trained and art that used belts,  I wouldn't promote a student who (like you) was focused on the belt instead of the training.
> 
> I also recommend you stay away form traditional Chinese martial arts because it has no belt ranks... and no time limits



I see, so another words, one of your requirements for promotion would be that in order to promote, a student shouldn't be too focused on the promotion itself. How about a student in academics who is focused on getting As? Is there anything wrong with that?

And I've done some of the traditional Chinese martial arts. I know they have no ranks and I like them. Especially Tai Chi which really gets into the mental aspects. And everything has a time limit. You only have so long to live. That in and of itself is a time limit.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> How about a student in academics who is focused on getting As? Is there anything wrong with that?.



Yes if all they focus on is the grade and are not learning and thinking.   Anyone can study for a test to get an A. But are they learning anything or just memorizing the little they need for the A.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> How about a student in academics who is focused on getting As? Is there anything wrong with that?



Yes. I've worked with a number of students who were book smart, while at the same time making it painfully clear that they ought never ever for any reason be allowed to touch a patient.

The best students are not focused on making As. They are focused on learning and thinking. Much like a martial arts student who is focused on a belt vs one who is focused on technique and application.

But you still won't get it, I'm sure.


----------



## Buka

Philosophy in the Arts is an interesting question to me. I guess unless a  dojo has a written rule about what, if any, philosophy is taught to students,  we, as teachers, relate whatever philosophy, or examples of philosophy,  we deem helpful. I would imagine it's done to help in Martial Arts in  one way or another. I hope we do a good job of it. I'm sure we all try.

Martial arts should be more than punch, kick, choke.


----------



## Hand Sword

Zen or Chan was always hand in hand with the arts. Unfortunately, different cultures, eras, and "needs" have changed the philosophy of teaching the arts and what's the primary focus.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Hand Sword said:


> Zen or Chan was always hand in hand with the arts. Unfortunately, different cultures, eras, and "needs" have changed the philosophy of teaching the arts and what's the primary focus.



That's how it always is when you bring something from one culture into another culture. Baseball originated in the USA but eventually it was brought to Japan and became very big in Japan. As such, if you play baseball in Japan under the Japanese league you will find they do stuff differently, even if those differences are at the philosophical level. The basic rules for playing baseball are the same but the Japanese have incorporated some of their philosophies, such as the idea of "honor," into the sport.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Yes. I've worked with a number of students who were book smart, while at the same time making it painfully clear that they ought never ever for any reason be allowed to touch a patient.
> 
> The best students are not focused on making As. They are focused on learning and thinking. Much like a martial arts student who is focused on a belt vs one who is focused on technique and application.
> 
> But you still won't get it, I'm sure.



So how about this, a student who is primarily focused on learning and thinking and also wants to get As or for that matter a martial arts student who is primarily focused on technique and application but also wants to reach a certain rank, be it black belt or whatever.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Speaking of time periods in which to accomplish stuff, I always give myself time periods of some sort or at least I try to get as much done as best I can in as short an amount of time. Even if Im training in a martial arts style that doesn't use rank or for that matter, even if Im learning something other than martial arts that doesn't have rank I still want to learn as much as I can and get as good as I can as soon as I can. You've only got so long to live and I prefer to be efficient with my time. The more you get done as soon as you can the more time you have to get even more done. If you don't push yourself your life will pass by and you will not have done much. I prefer to get as much done as I can as soon as I can but that's just me, other people might be different but that's them.


----------



## Hand Sword

Unfortunately, with the arts, skill only comes with time. There is no speed up process; it all accumulates through time. There are no short cuts. Think of it like this: you take up the arts as a teen. You do thousands of reps through the years, and yeah, know the techniques, forms, etc. Then you watch or feel your instructor, assuming they've been a practitioner for years. Is it the same? Knowledge wise, in terms of execution, and arrangement, sure. In terms of substance- no. A young person might not be able to lock up a large adult. An older artist, throws all very easily. Why? The techniques are the same. The movements for all are the same. It's just a level of skill accumualted through the years. Maybe it is chi, ki, or whatever. It's definitely something.


----------



## Chris Parker

Again? Really?

Okay, let's try another approach&#8230; everyone else has pointed out the repetitive aspect of this thread, but something's caught my eye&#8230; PhotonGuy, you constantly use the term "philosophy", or "philosophical" or similar&#8230; however I feel that your usage of the term is similar to Viscini's use of "inconceivable" in The Princess Bride&#8230; so...

What exactly do you think "philosophy" means? How do you define the term?


----------



## Cirdan

PhotonGuy said:


> Speaking of time periods in which to accomplish stuff, I always give myself time periods of some sort or at least I try to get as much done as best I can in as short an amount of time. Even if Im training in a martial arts style that doesn't use rank or for that matter, even if Im learning something other than martial arts that doesn't have rank I still want to learn as much as I can and get as good as I can as soon as I can. You've only got so long to live and I prefer to be efficient with my time. The more you get done as soon as you can the more time you have to get even more done. If you don't push yourself your life will pass by and you will not have done much. I prefer to get as much done as I can as soon as I can but that's just me, other people might be different but that's them.



I think that mindset is part of your problem if I might say so. You never get anything "done" in martial arts, it is about doing and being rather than reaching some finishing line and getting the shiny prize.

(edit) Come to think of it this is also a major cause of "the blue belt syndrome". A lot of people quit once they are past the beginner level because it means you must start to really learn rather than just push harder.


----------



## drop bear

Photon. Your mentality is probably more geared towards comps. That way you can set a goal train hard for it and then put yourself on the line testing it.

It is a reality that can be a really maturing and rewarding experience.

And you can be as focused and committed as you want and will only get support. Rather than criticism.


----------



## donald1

The point of martial arts has always been to train in that system,  not get a black belt. Maybe it's a different perspective it might help to think about priorities.  It doesn't matter what the subject is martial arts,  test,  etc. The important part is what your learning.  If you want to earn a belt or an A then focus on learning but don't forget what is more important 

Just curious,  if you train traditional Chinese martial arts how do you know there skill by how well they do there form?


----------



## ballen0351

It reminds me of the "new" youth sports.  My kids when they were little 3 to 5 played soccer for the YMCA.  They were not allowed to keep score no winners or looser and every one gets a trophy.  After they figured it out that no matter how hard they played or how good or bad they were they get a trophy they stopped playing so hard.  If all that matters is the trophy at the end then learning and playing hard and understanding the games just isn't as important


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> The student can influence when the teacher would decide if he's ready for something. For instance, a student that does put more in will improve faster and thus the teacher might decide he's ready for something sooner. And Im not necessarily talking about rank, it could be learning a new technique or techniques and so forth..



But  you see, it is still up to the teacher and you are now changing the topic which was based on the story and a "Race" and if you are not talking about rank then what are you talking about since your original "Race" was based on a race to mastery.



PhotonGuy said:


> And I wouldn't train under somebody who guaranteed me a certain level in a certain amount of time. And I don't necessarily mean rank with this either. A teacher who guarantees I will reach a certain skill level in a certain time I wouldn't trust because its really up to the student. The more the student puts into it the faster they improve. Even if the teacher decides when the student is ready for something, like I said, the student can influence that decision..



But you are disagreeing with a story where a student is asking of the teacher that very thing, "How long will it take"



PhotonGuy said:


> In the martial arts, ultimately you do change it to your ideas. That's why there is a martial art for every martial artist. The roots of the martial arts comes from your instructor but ultimately the martial arts comes from inside you. Eventually you do it your own way. And I never said I approved of belt factories. In fact, quite the opposite. I think belts should be earned but a student should know what they need to do to get to their next belt and if they aren't clear they should ask. That shouldn't be seen as disrespectful, to simply clarify something.



But the student does not always know and rarely knows more about it than their instructor, that is if they actually have a good instructor




PhotonGuy said:


> I see, so another words, one of your requirements for promotion would be that in order to promote, a student shouldn't be too focused on the promotion itself. How about a student in academics who is focused on getting As? Is there anything wrong with that?



Your changing perspectives again and trying to related things that are unrelated to make come out right and you still missed the point. Having a desire to get good grades and having a desire to gain rank is not a bad thing. But if that is all you are focused on you are missing a lot and generally are willing to do whatever it takes to get that grade or rank be that stepping on others or cheating.



PhotonGuy said:


> And I've done some of the traditional Chinese martial arts. I know they have no ranks and I like them. Especially Tai Chi which really gets into the mental aspects. And everything has a time limit. You only have so long to live. That in and of itself is a time limit.



Now you expand it to limitations by life span....and to be honest that has little to do with what you were originally talking about. Yes we all have a limited time on this planet but the journey is what is important. Not some arbitrary expectation of gaining some sort of symbol of your success. And that symbol (belt rank, mastery, grades) is not all that important when compared to how you achieve them.

We don't agree and I am fully convinced you simply do not understand the story you used to start this whole race thing and I fully believe you are more interested in being right than anything else and I get that from your continual change of examples that tend to be unrelated or off the mark all together. Further discussion here, IMO, would be a waste of my time. I wish you the best in your "Race"


*Edit:* I just saw in one of my previous posts (#30) I made an error, I said I have been training for a little over 49 years, that is incorrect, it is a little over 40 years, I'm old... but not that old. Sorry about the typographical error.... all I can say, and to quote BB King, "My fingers is stupid"


----------



## PhotonGuy

Hand Sword said:


> Unfortunately, with the arts, skill only comes with time. There is no speed up process; it all accumulates through time. There are no short cuts. Think of it like this: you take up the arts as a teen. You do thousands of reps through the years, and yeah, know the techniques, forms, etc. Then you watch or feel your instructor, assuming they've been a practitioner for years. Is it the same? Knowledge wise, in terms of execution, and arrangement, sure. In terms of substance- no. A young person might not be able to lock up a large adult. An older artist, throws all very easily. Why? The techniques are the same. The movements for all are the same. It's just a level of skill accumualted through the years. Maybe it is chi, ki, or whatever. It's definitely something.



Everything takes time, not just skill in the arts. However, it is possible to be more efficient with your time, or to do more in less time, by working harder. Just like covering the distance of a mile, you can walk or you can run. If you run the mile you will reach your destination sooner. Running is not a shortcut. A shortcut would be doing something to make it easier. Running the mile is not easier, in fact its harder than walking it. But it will get you there sooner. So that's the tradeoff, you save time but you have to work harder.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> Again? Really?
> 
> Okay, let's try another approach everyone else has pointed out the repetitive aspect of this thread, but something's caught my eye PhotonGuy, you constantly use the term "philosophy", or "philosophical" or similar however I feel that your usage of the term is similar to Viscini's use of "inconceivable" in The Princess Bride so...
> 
> What exactly do you think "philosophy" means? How do you define the term?



Philosophy, according to the dictionary is, "the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being,knowledge, or conduct." So you could say philosophy is an idea or ideas or a logical theory.

As for Viscini, when he used the word "inconceivable" he was doing so to express his own disbelief, such as Wesley getting past Inigo and Fezzik and catching up with him.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Cirdan said:


> I think that mindset is part of your problem if I might say so. You never get anything "done" in martial arts, it is about doing and being rather than reaching some finishing line and getting the shiny prize.
> 
> (edit) Come to think of it this is also a major cause of "the blue belt syndrome". A lot of people quit once they are past the beginner level because it means you must start to really learn rather than just push harder.



My mindset hasn't caused me problems. And the martial art does have finish lines of its own but those finish lines are just the starting lines that lead to more finish lines. Much like what you call "blue belt syndrome." I would call it "green belt syndrome" since the green belt is a little but more commonly used and its generally the belt that means intermediate. Some people might think of the green belt as a shiny prize as you put it but I see it as just the beginning of learning more stuff. Same thing with the black belt, its just the beginning to the next level. And this also goes for styles that don't use rank, when you get good enough at certain stuff (techniques, forms, ect.) that's the doorway to learning more stuff, and so on and so on. To learn though, you do have to push hard. What can I say, Im an American and I believe in hard work. My father was the same way.


----------



## PhotonGuy

drop bear said:


> Photon. Your mentality is probably more geared towards comps. That way you can set a goal train hard for it and then put yourself on the line testing it.
> 
> It is a reality that can be a really maturing and rewarding experience.
> 
> And you can be as focused and committed as you want and will only get support. Rather than criticism.



Well I have been involved in competitive sports. I was a competitive swimmer and I had a fast 50 Freestyle, and I grew up with competitive sports. Most of the people I went to school with were in competitive sports. I guess its an American thing. And the martial arts itself often is used as a competitive sport. And even if it isn't you are in competition with yourself.


----------



## PhotonGuy

donald1 said:


> The point of martial arts has always been to train in that system,  not get a black belt. Maybe it's a different perspective it might help to think about priorities.  It doesn't matter what the subject is martial arts,  test,  etc. The important part is what your learning.  If you want to earn a belt or an A then focus on learning but don't forget what is more important
> 
> Just curious,  if you train traditional Chinese martial arts how do you know there skill by how well they do there form?



I would agree with you, about the most important thing being what you're learning, and getting a black belt is certainly not the end its a beginning. But there is nothing wrong with wanting to get a black belt or an A. And if you're uncertain about something there is nothing wrong with asking. A good teacher will welcome questions. After all, a martial arts sensei is not a military D.I., as some people like to make them out to be.


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> It reminds me of the "new" youth sports.  My kids when they were little 3 to 5 played soccer for the YMCA.  They were not allowed to keep score no winners or looser and every one gets a trophy.  After they figured it out that no matter how hard they played or how good or bad they were they get a trophy they stopped playing so hard.  If all that matters is the trophy at the end then learning and playing hard and understanding the games just isn't as important



I agree, and giving a trophy to every participant might be fine for small children, but eventually they've got to grow up and learn that stuff in life has to be earned. Life is not like Cub Scouts where everybody gets an award. And that is why I don't like belt factories that hand out or sell belts. The soccer program in your kid's YMCA reminded me of that.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> I agree, and giving a trophy to every participant might be fine for small children, but eventually they've got to grow up and learn that stuff in life has to be earned. Life is not like Cub Scouts where everybody gets an award. And that is why I don't like belt factories that hand out or sell belts. The soccer program in your kid's YMCA reminded me of that.



Every time you post about a belt it reminds me of that


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> Every time you post about a belt it reminds me of that



Well I didn't bring up belts or rank in this thread, it was other people that brought that up. The original idea of this thread was about getting a job done or reaching a goal which doesn't necessarily have to be a rank.


----------



## donald1

No,  just a general thing.  The fact many Americans are competitive is just how it is.  There are competitive people wherever you go a lot of places have many competitive people. And afcoarse,  that's part of training everyday the thing to try do is ask yourself.  how can today be better than yesterday.  That's how experience is gained,  you start by putting in effort then you learn what your strengths and weaknesses are.  Then make your strengths better and over time fix the mistakes and improve.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> But  you see, it is still up to the teacher and you are now changing the topic which was based on the story and a "Race" and if you are not talking about rank then what are you talking about since your original "Race" was based on a race to mastery.


My example of the "race" that I started this thread on, actually it was about covering a mile distance, was about getting a job done or getting to something you want to get to. It doesn't have to mean rank or mastery it can mean any kind of goal or job that needs to be done.



Xue Sheng said:


> But you are disagreeing with a story where a student is asking of the teacher that very thing, "How long will it take"


If I was the teacher I would answer the student by saying that it depends on him. How long it takes him to reach a certain level of mastery would depend on how much he puts into it. That's how it is with most everything.



Xue Sheng said:


> But the student does not always know and rarely knows more about it than their instructor, that is if they actually have a good instructor


That's why the roots come from the instructor. But eventually the student finds stuff out about himself and finds ways to make the art work better for him. We're all different and we all have certain stuff that works better or worse for us. As Mr. Miyagi told Daniel that his martial art comes from himself. The roots come from Mr. Miyagi but eventually Daniel will do it his own way. That was said during the speech they had in the 3rd movie when they were working with a bonsai tree.



Xue Sheng said:


> Your changing perspectives again and trying to related things that are unrelated to make come out right and you still missed the point. Having a desire to get good grades and having a desire to gain rank is not a bad thing. But if that is all you are focused on you are missing a lot and generally are willing to do whatever it takes to get that grade or rank be that stepping on others or cheating.



Getting rank or grades shouldn't be the main focus but as I said, there is nothing wrong with wanting rank or good grades and you agree with me on that since you said its not a bad thing. As I said, it shouldn't be all that you focus on and I would never want to get a rank or good grade by cheating because then it isn't the real thing. That's why I wouldn't train at a belt factory.



Xue Sheng said:


> Now you expand it to limitations by life span....and to be honest that has little to do with what you were originally talking about. Yes we all have a limited time on this planet but the journey is what is important. Not some arbitrary expectation of gaining some sort of symbol of your success. And that symbol (belt rank, mastery, grades) is not all that important when compared to how you achieve them.
> 
> We don't agree and I am fully convinced you simply do not understand the story you used to start this whole race thing and I fully believe you are more interested in being right than anything else and I get that from your continual change of examples that tend to be unrelated or off the mark all together. Further discussion here, IMO, would be a waste of my time. I wish you the best in your "Race"


To me, what I do on the journey is important. And it doesn't have to be obtaining some symbol of achievement, remember it was other people not me who brought rank into the discussion on this thread. I used to be a competitive swimmer. One of my favorite events was the 50 Freestyle. As such I wanted to get as fast a time on the 50 Freestyle as possible. Now, if I swam a fast enough 50 Freestyle that I brought my time down and beat my previous record I would be satisfied. I wouldn't need a medal or ribbon or some other symbol of success, just knowing that I did it and did it legitimately would be enough. So as I said, symbols aren't everything. And we do agree with some stuff as I pointed out above. But if you're going to move on from this discussion than take care.


----------



## PhotonGuy

donald1 said:


> No,  just a general thing.  The fact many Americans are competitive is just how it is.  There are competitive people wherever you go a lot of places have many competitive people. And afcoarse,  that's part of training everyday the thing to try do is ask yourself.  how can today be better than yesterday.  That's how experience is gained,  you start by putting in effort then you learn what your strengths and weaknesses are.  Then make your strengths better and over time fix the mistakes and improve.



Well interestingly enough, in the Asian cultures, the cultures that most of the martial arts we think about originated from, there they are very competitive too and those cultures are known for their hard work. In Japan, getting into one of their colleges is the main goal for just about every Japanese student. When preparing for entrance exams, students will practically just eat, sleep and study. The parents will relieve the student of daily chores because he will need the time to study, and meals will be prepared for the student and brought to him instead of him eating at the table like everybody else. That is just one example. So, the Asian cultures are very goal oriented too.


----------



## Gnarlie

On the subject of this mile race... 

If training MA is a mile race then the track is circular, and the goal is not to finish, but to fully perceive and attain every last detail along the way. Then start over on a new lap, always running, always perceiving, always attaining. The faster you run, the more you miss, the more laps you have to to. Hurry up and wait. At the end of lap 1, you will pass a bunch of new 1st dans strutting around on a grass verge, thinking they've arrived.

The 1st dans have run their mile, but they might not be able to tell you how many blades of grass there are on the track.


----------



## mook jong man

PhotonGuy said:


> Well interestingly enough, in the Asian cultures, the cultures that most of the martial arts we think about originated from, there they are very competitive too and those cultures are known for their hard work. In Japan, getting into one of their colleges is the main goal for just about every Japanese student. When preparing for entrance exams, students will practically just eat, sleep and study. The parents will relieve the student of daily chores because he will need the time to study, and meals will be prepared for the student and brought to him instead of him eating at the table like everybody else. That is just one example. So, the Asian cultures are very goal oriented too.



Yeah , they also have an astronomically high suicide rate.
So maybe all work and no play not only makes little Kenji-san a dull boy , it also makes him feel like jumping in front of a train.


----------



## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> Everything takes time, not just skill in the arts. However, it is possible to be more efficient with your time, or to do more in less time, by working harder. Just like covering the distance of a mile, you can walk or you can run. If you run the mile you will reach your destination sooner. Running is not a shortcut. A shortcut would be doing something to make it easier. Running the mile is not easier, in fact its harder than walking it. But it will get you there sooner. So that's the tradeoff, you save time but you have to work harder.



It's not always possible to be more efficient.  No matter how efficient, some things just take time to learn and understand.  Let me use painting as an analogy.  You can use a sprayer, a roller, brushes, or cotton swabs to apply paint to a wall.  A sprayer is much more efficient than a cotton swab... but you're still going to have to wait for the paint to dry in between coats -- and that time isn't going to change, no matter how efficiently you applied the paint to the wall.  I can teach you combative skills to a good level of proficiency in a matter of weeks.  But to understand the principles underneath them, and to be able to go beyond the direct techniques -- that's going to take a lot longer.  And if you focus too hard on the wrong parts -- you'll never get that understanding.


----------



## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> Well I didn't bring up belts or rank in this thread, it was other people that brought that up. The original idea of this thread was about getting a job done or reaching a goal which doesn't necessarily have to be a rank.



Your original post was clear as mud... and didn't seem to have diddly squat to do with anywhere you've gone since then.

Even your "clarification" wasn't much help.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> On the subject of this mile race...
> 
> If training MA is a mile race then the track is circular, and the goal is not to finish, but to fully perceive and attain every last detail along the way. Then start over on a new lap, always running, always perceiving, always attaining. The faster you run, the more you miss, the more laps you have to to. Hurry up and wait. At the end of lap 1, you will pass a bunch of new 1st dans strutting around on a grass verge, thinking they've arrived.
> 
> The 1st dans have run their mile, but they might not be able to tell you how many blades of grass there are on the track.



I would have to agree with you, about the mile race track being circular. No matter how much you learn, no matter how far you progress, you can always go further in the martial arts. But for me, I want to run as many laps as I can. Lap 1 is just the beginning and after that I want to run more laps. I want to run as many laps as I can while I still can.

As for the 1st dans who just ran their first lap and aren't able to tell you how many blades of grass are on the track, they can find out how many on their next lap around the track, or their next one, or the one after that.


----------



## PhotonGuy

mook jong man said:


> Yeah , they also have an astronomically high suicide rate.
> So maybe all work and no play not only makes little Kenji-san a dull boy , it also makes him feel like jumping in front of a train.



I agree with that. Work hard but play hard. The harder you work the more rest you need. Take time to enjoy life and have fun.


----------



## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> It's not always possible to be more efficient.  No matter how efficient, some things just take time to learn and understand.  Let me use painting as an analogy.  You can use a sprayer, a roller, brushes, or cotton swabs to apply paint to a wall.  A sprayer is much more efficient than a cotton swab... but you're still going to have to wait for the paint to dry in between coats -- and that time isn't going to change, no matter how efficiently you applied the paint to the wall.  I can teach you combative skills to a good level of proficiency in a matter of weeks.  But to understand the principles underneath them, and to be able to go beyond the direct techniques -- that's going to take a lot longer.  And if you focus too hard on the wrong parts -- you'll never get that understanding.



Yes things do take time no matter what, but why not be efficient if you can? Why take longer to do something if you don't have to? Lets say you're planting a garden and you can choose between two types of plant food, plant food A or plant food B. Both types of plant food produce exactly the same results except with plant food B your plants will sprout up a week earlier and you will have your garden a week sooner. With plant food B it will still take time, it wont make your plants sprout up instantaneously but you save a week as opposed to using plant food A, so which would you use?


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> I would have to agree with you, about the mile race track being circular. No matter how much you learn, no matter how far you progress, you can always go further in the martial arts. But for me, I want to run as many laps as I can. Lap 1 is just the beginning and after that I want to run more laps. I want to run as many laps as I can while I still can.
> 
> As for the 1st dans who just ran their first lap and aren't able to tell you how many blades of grass are on the track, they can find out how many on their next lap around the track, or their next one, or the one after that.


There are things you will never be able to perceive if you are travelling too fast, or are focused on other things than the journey itself. Someone who is focused on the journey and perceiving all that they can will extract not only more from every lap, but more than a sprinter ever could regardless of how many laps he does.

It sort of like not knowing what the actual reason for a test is until the end. It's in your interest to perceive everything if you don't know what the test is going to be about. 

Change Blindness - Cognitive Psychology Experimen: http://youtu.be/0grANlx7y2E


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes things do take time no matter what, but why not be efficient if you can? Why take longer to do something if you don't have to? Lets say you're planting a garden and you can choose between two types of plant food, plant food A or plant food B. Both types of plant food produce exactly the same results except with plant food B your plants will sprout up a week earlier and you will have your garden a week sooner. With plant food B it will still take time, it wont make your plants sprout up instantaneously but you save a week as opposed to using plant food A, so which would you use?


With plant food A I get an extra week to enjoy watching my garden in the growing phase, to observe and experiment with different methods of watering, to find out which produces the best flowers so I can grow better ones next time.

With plant food B I am robbed of that extra time, and the next garden I grow will not be as much of an improvement in the first. 

I'm not sure how many analogies you need to hear switched around to understand this, but it's true whatever analogy you might choose.

Just like running laps, there is information you will never perceive if you are only focused on the immediate result of growing a garden. Yes you will grow more gardens in one lifetime, but they will all be pretty much the same garden.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes things do take time no matter what, but why not be efficient if you can? Why take longer to do something if you don't have to? Lets say you're planting a garden and you can choose between two types of plant food, plant food A or plant food B. Both types of plant food produce exactly the same results except with plant food B your plants will sprout up a week earlier and you will have your garden a week sooner. With plant food B it will still take time, it wont make your plants sprout up instantaneously but you save a week as opposed to using plant food A, so which would you use?



Your analogy is terrible flawed. Anybody who has done any gardening will no doubt point out that faster sprouting plants also means they die sooner. And if they happen to be edible, the fruit is smaller.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> With plant food A I get an extra week to enjoy watching my garden in the growing phase, to observe and experiment with different methods of watering, to find out which produces the best flowers so I can grow better ones next time.
> 
> With plant food B I am robbed of that extra time, and the next garden I grow will not be as much of an improvement in the first.
> 
> I'm not sure how many analogies you need to hear switched around to understand this, but it's true whatever analogy you might choose.
> 
> Just like running laps, there is information you will never perceive if you are only focused on the immediate result of growing a garden. Yes you will grow more gardens in one lifetime, but they will all be pretty much the same garden.



So it depends on what you want. If you want to enjoy watching your garden grow than you would use plant food A. If you want a garden sooner than use plant food B. With plant food B, as I said before, it will not make your plants sprout up instantaneously so you still have time to experiment with different methods of watering and so forth. Although I would read a book or consult with a plant expert to find out the most effective methods of watering rather than experimenting and re-inventing the wheel.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Your analogy is terrible flawed. Anybody who has done any gardening will no doubt point out that faster sprouting plants also means they die sooner. And if they happen to be edible, the fruit is smaller.



In case you didn't notice I said both plant foods produce the same results. Both plant foods produce plants that are just as big, live just as long, and have just as big fruit. You just don't get it. The only thing flawed is your posts.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> In case you didn't notice I said both plant foods produce the same results. Both plant foods produce plants that are just as big, live just as long, and have just as big fruit. You just don't get it. The only thing flawed is your posts.



That's why the analogy is flawed. It's based on a fantasy.

[Edit] I'm going to expand on this statement, in case it's not clear.
An analogy is a comparison between similar things. So in your little garden, if you'd like to compare a fantasy to a fantasy, that will work. If you want to compare real to real, that will also work.
Comparing a fantasy to a reality just won't work. The comparison is inherently flawed.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> So it depends on what you want. If you want to enjoy watching your garden grow than you would use plant food A. If you want a garden sooner than use plant food B. With plant food B, as I said before, it will not make your plants sprout up instantaneously so you still have time to experiment with different methods of watering and so forth. Although I would read a book or consult with a plant expert to find out the most effective methods of watering rather than experimenting and re-inventing the wheel.


One thing MA and gardening have in common is that books and experts can only help you so much. They can only speak from their own journey. They don't take into account your local environment and circumstances, and they can't carry out the task for you. You need to do it yourself, based on the depth of experience you have gained on your journey.

Rushing to a goal begets breadth of experience but not depth. Depth of experience comes with time and careful mindfulness. One cannot be mindful if one is only focused on result. 

Incidentally, some of the people here ARE experts. Are you perceiving what they are telling you? 

Did you notice how people reacted earlier in this thread when you said that technical ability alone should be enough to get someone promoted? People disagreed, implying there was more to it? The maturity to practice in a mindful manner is the thing. Focus on the goal, and you miss the now. Anyone missing the now is only capable of getting so far in their training and is unlikely to be promoted beyond a certain level. 

I feel like trying to communicate these ideas further is a bit of a waste of time. You seem so focused on trying to shoehorn your idea into being right (another kind of goal) that you're not really giving due consideration to what is being said to you by some very experienced people.


----------



## drop bear

I disagree with a lot of that. The harder you train the more disciplined you train and the more time you spend  training the better you are going to get.

The better you get the better able you will be able to understand the concepts.

I understand the concept of stopping and smelling the roses from a life balance point of view but not from an effective training point of view.

So it comes down to this. For me anyway.

If you want belts work hard for them and get them. The harder you work the more you deserve them.

If you are part of a school that is not giving you belts because they don't like hard work then go find a martial art that does.Seriously if lower belts are manhandling the more experienced guys then  and the reason for that being that there is reward for being one of the cool guys and not one of the hard working guys. Then I don't see the benefit of that system.


----------



## Gnarlie

I'm not saying go slow, neither am I saying don't work hard. I'm saying go deep. Racing towards a goal will achieve superficial knowledge without the depth of thousands of hours of application.

Essentially drop bear I think we are saying the same thing. Work hard. But the deeper reward lies within the work itself, not from some externally applied goal criterion.


----------



## Chris Parker

Okay, let's see what we have here.



PhotonGuy said:


> Philosophy, according to the dictionary is, "the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being,knowledge, or conduct." So you could say philosophy is an idea or ideas or a logical theory.



No.

You've misunderstood the dictionary definition (which is one usage of the word only), and have gone in the wrong direction again. What that definition is is of the application of "philosophy" as an area of study it states that (the study of) philosophy is the rational investigation of the - truths and principles of being, the truths and principles of knowledge, and the truths and principles of conduct. In other words, the study of philosophy is the study of "why" from an rational standpoint. It is not simply "an idea" that's a concept. It is not "ideas", as that's concepts. And it's not a logical theory it's an investigation of belief and knowledge.

Another definition of philosophy pertains to a philosophy of (something). In this context, the term refers to a set of codifying or unifying beliefs and values the give structure and purpose to behaviour.

Neither of these definitions have the slightest to do with your thread, your posts, or anything else.

You are not investigating the "why" of anything. You are not applying a philosophy (a set of beliefs and values), you're trying to impose a set of personal beliefs and values where they have no place. What's the difference? Well, if you were actually looking at an application of a philosophy, it's be congruent, and unified within itself this isn't. This is you deciding that you feel things should be one way, that certain rules should apply when they don't. 

There is nothing to do with philosophy here.



PhotonGuy said:


> As for Viscini, when he used the word "inconceivable" he was doing so to express his own disbelief, such as Wesley getting past Inigo and Fezzik and catching up with him.



And you've completely missed the point here as well the issue isn't what Viscini was saying, or why he was using the particular word ("inconceivable!"), it's that he continually used the word in a fashion that denied it's actual definition he would claim that things that were perfectly conceivable, in fact, happening directly before his eyes (such as the other ship chasing his) were "inconceivable!" that they were unable to be conceived. Hence, Inigo pointed out that he kept "using that word I do not think it means what you think it means".

It's the same here you are using the term "philosophy" but it doesn't mean what you think it does.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> I'm not saying go slow, neither am I saying don't work hard. I'm saying go deep. Racing towards a goal will achieve superficial knowledge without the depth of thousands of hours of application.
> 
> Essentially drop bear I think we are saying the same thing. Work hard. But the deeper reward lies within the work itself, not from some externally applied goal criterion.


Except for this. And I think it is what people are missing from this conversation.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8L5ZLuggSpM


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> Except for this. And I think it is what people are missing from this conversation.
> 
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8L5ZLuggSpM


Most times I would agree, it's each to their own. But in certain cases, truth is truth. 

Let me give a slightly different analogy where a similar truth applies. 

Beginner guitarists often look up to really fast, clean players. Any fast, clean player will tell you that the ONLY way to learn to play fast and clean is to start slow and clean and gradually build up the pace over months and years. 

People who start off trying to play fast might make some limited progress, but beyond a certain point their playing will sound messy and horrible, especially next to a clean player. They can continue to practice their whole life, but unless they change their approach and slow down, they'll never have the skill they desire, only sonic mush. 

Too much focus on the end goal of speed prevents the goal from being effectively reached.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> Most times I would agree, it's each to their own. But in certain cases, truth is truth.
> 
> Let me give a slightly different analogy where a similar truth applies.
> 
> Beginner guitarists often look up to really fast, clean players. Any fast, clean player will tell you that the ONLY way to learn to play fast and clean is to start slow and clean and gradually build up the pace over months and years.
> 
> People who start off trying to play fast might make some limited progress, but beyond a certain point their playing will sound messy and horrible, especially next to a clean player. They can continue to practice their whole life, but unless they change their approach and slow down, they'll never have the skill they desire, only sonic mush.
> 
> Too much focus on the end goal of speed prevents the goal from being effectively reached.



So playing fast and clean is assisted by having a spiritual knowledge of the guitar? Or working towards good technique. I don't think anybody is suggesting greater gains through poor practice.


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> So playing fast and clean is assisted by having a spiritual knowledge of the guitar? Or working towards good technique. I don't think anybody is suggesting greater gains through poor practice.


At no point have I suggested spiritual knowledge; only depth. 

Rushing only towards an arbitrary goal precludes depth of understanding, especially with physical skills.

Bruce Lee's 'I do not hit, it hits all by itself' quote seems appropriate here. That ability cannot be reached without depth of practice. Breadth of practice will only get one so far.

That guitar plays itself for people who have depth of practice. Those who focus only on the end goal of speed have to try hard to play. 

That's not to say that goals aren't useful, but they need to be chosen wisely and should not be something external like a belt.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> At no point have I suggested spiritual knowledge; only depth.
> 
> Rushing only towards an arbitrary goal precludes depth of understanding, especially with physical skills.
> 
> Bruce Lee's 'I do not hit, it hits all by itself' quote seems appropriate here. That ability cannot be reached without depth of practice. Breadth of practice will only get one so far.
> 
> That guitar plays itself for people who have depth of practice. Those who focus only on the end goal of speed have to try hard to play.
> 
> That's not to say that goals aren't useful, but they need to be chosen wisely and should not be something external like a belt.



Volume of practice. Muscle memory and all that. And the reason.,OK also natural talent, that some people can achieve in months what others take years to do.

I still don't understand why an external goal like a belt is a bad goal.

I am not sure what internal goal is significantly better or more moral.

I know people who have fitness goals. One of my friends is training for a marathon. (External goal) in the process he is getting fit loosing weight learning a skill (internal goal)

Now I am not sure you could as successfully achieve the result the other way. Getting fit and then in the process do a marathon.


----------



## PhotonGuy

drop bear said:


> I disagree with a lot of that. The harder you train the more disciplined you train and the more time you spend  training the better you are going to get.
> 
> The better you get the better able you will be able to understand the concepts.
> 
> I understand the concept of stopping and smelling the roses from a life balance point of view but not from an effective training point of view.
> 
> So it comes down to this. For me anyway.
> 
> If you want belts work hard for them and get them. The harder you work the more you deserve them.
> 
> If you are part of a school that is not giving you belts because they don't like hard work then go find a martial art that does.Seriously if lower belts are manhandling the more experienced guys then  and the reason for that being that there is reward for being one of the cool guys and not one of the hard working guys. Then I don't see the benefit of that system.




I agree with Drop Bear. Technical skill itself I don't see as enough for promotion, but if a student develops technical skill in the process they should develop all the other necessary attributes. It takes time to develop technical skill so if a student has developed technical skill it shows that they're patient. And belts aren't everything but a student that works hard does deserve them. And there is nothing wrong with talking to your sensei about something if you don't understand it.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> I'm not saying go slow, neither am I saying don't work hard. I'm saying go deep. Racing towards a goal will achieve superficial knowledge without the depth of thousands of hours of application.
> 
> Essentially drop bear I think we are saying the same thing. Work hard. But the deeper reward lies within the work itself, not from some externally applied goal criterion.



OK I agree with you on that. But it never hurts to be efficient.


----------



## jks9199

drop bear said:


> Volume of practice. Muscle memory and all that. And the reason.,OK also natural talent, that some people can achieve in months what others take years to do.
> 
> I still don't understand why an external goal like a belt is a bad goal.
> 
> I am not sure what internal goal is significantly better or more moral.
> 
> I know people who have fitness goals. One of my friends is training for a marathon. (External goal) in the process he is getting fit loosing weight learning a skill (internal goal)
> 
> Now I am not sure you could as successfully achieve the result the other way. Getting fit and then in the process do a marathon.



Actually -- that leads to what might be a good analogy.  The Couch to 5K program is designed to take someone from literally zero running to doing a 5K in 9 weeks.  If you double up the daily stages, you likely won't be able to run a 5K in 4.5 weeks; you'll stand a really good chance of suffering an injury and needing several months to recover before you can run a 5K.

Photonguy -- you seem to be really goal focused, and that's not a bad thing.  But it can lead to missing things, and if you're focused on the wrong goals, you might not get where you want to be.  And, if you're too focused on the goal, you just might miss something along the way.


----------



## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> I agree with Drop Bear. Technical skill itself I don't see as enough for promotion, but if a student develops technical skill in the process they should develop all the other necessary attributes. It takes time to develop technical skill so if a student has developed technical skill it shows that they're patient. And belts aren't everything but a student that works hard does deserve them. And there is nothing wrong with talking to your sensei about something if you don't understand it.



Who has said you shouldn't talk to your teachers and coaches?


----------



## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> Actually -- that leads to what might be a good analogy.  The Couch to 5K program is designed to take someone from literally zero running to doing a 5K in 9 weeks.  If you double up the daily stages, you likely won't be able to run a 5K in 4.5 weeks; you'll stand a really good chance of suffering an injury and needing several months to recover before you can run a 5K.
> 
> Photonguy -- you seem to be really goal focused, and that's not a bad thing.  But it can lead to missing things, and if you're focused on the wrong goals, you might not get where you want to be.  And, if you're too focused on the goal, you just might miss something along the way.



Trying to run a 5K in 4.5 weeks as opposed to the 9 weeks the program says it will take would probably not be possible for most people and most likely would result in an injury. But that doesn't mean somebody who works a bit harder and does a bit more than what the program says won't be able to run the 5K in less time than 9 weeks, a person who pushes themselves harder might be able to do it in 8 weeks. And sometimes there is good reason to be goal focused and wanting to get to your goal in less time than it would ordinarily take. I once knew this girl in college who was taking almost twice as many classes as most people because she wanted to get her degree in two years as opposed to the standard four years it takes.


----------



## drop bear

jks9199 said:


> Actually -- that leads to what might be a good analogy.  The Couch to 5K program is designed to take someone from literally zero running to doing a 5K in 9 weeks.  If you double up the daily stages, you likely won't be able to run a 5K in 4.5 weeks; you'll stand a really good chance of suffering an injury and needing several months to recover before you can run a 5K.
> 
> Photonguy -- you seem to be really goal focused, and that's not a bad thing.  But it can lead to missing things, and if you're focused on the wrong goals, you might not get where you want to be.  And, if you're too focused on the goal, you just might miss something along the way.



We have taken people off the couch and put them in the ring in twelve weeks.

But otherwise I would have to see the programming. I am thinking you could do a swim or a weights or even a bodyweight on top of that and get benefits.

The Couch-to-5K ® Running Plan | C25K Mobile App

Yeah that looks like stuff all.


----------



## Buka

I don't know anything about running miles. I don't know anything about guitars. What philosophies I've learned have all come from Martial Arts. I listen to those who have a certain mastery of their Art(s) over those who have yet to attain that.

I consider them Philosoraptors.


----------



## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> Who has said you shouldn't talk to your teachers and coaches?



There's been people on this board who've said you should just "shut up and train," and while that does have its place such as during drill work, there is nothing wrong with asking questions during breaks or after class.


----------



## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> There's been people on this board who've said you should just "shut up and train," and while that does have its place such as during drill work, there is nothing wrong with asking questions during breaks or after class.



And you have been told, in conjunction with that advice, that there are times and places for questions.  Honestly, sometimes I wonder if you read past the first sentence in a reply...  

But what does that have to do with your initial idea here?


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> There's been people on this board who've said you should just "shut up and train," and while that does have its place such as during drill work, there is nothing wrong with asking questions during breaks or after class.



And it remains excellent advice.  It's pretty silly to think that such a statement means you should never talk or ask questions. And even sillier to think that anybody here meant it in such a way.

I'm trying to remember... being excessively literal minded is a symptom of something...


----------



## drop bear

PhotonGuy said:


> There's been people on this board who've said you should just "shut up and train," and while that does have its place such as during drill work, there is nothing wrong with asking questions during breaks or after class.



Lol.

That was me.

Shut up and train falls directly into the principles of goal focused training. 

Maybe a terry Pratchett's quote will be more applicable.

[h=1]&#8220;Miss Tick sniffed. 'You could say this advice is priceless,' she said. 'Are you listening?'
'Yes,' said Tiffany.
'Good. Now ... if you trust in yourself ...'
'Yes?'
'... and believe in your dreams ...'
'Yes?'
'... and follow your star ...' Miss Tick went on.
'Yes?'
'... you'll still get beaten by people who spent THEIR time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye.&#8221;[/h]


----------



## donald1

Questions are good,  it's better to ask a question and learn something the hard way then to never have learned it at all.  As long as it's on TOPIC,  NOT INTERESTING THE TEACHER when he or she is talking,  or another bad question is when you ask a question that was just answered.  Gonna be getting be getting some frightening looks from the instructor when that happens...  But sometimes when you stay quiet and train sometimes the instructor will answer it or demonstrate it. 

@drop bear what does that quote means?


----------



## drop bear

donald1 said:


> Questions are good,  it's better to ask a question and learn something the hard way then to never have learned it at all.  As long as it's on TOPIC,  NOT INTERESTING THE TEACHER when he or she is talking,  or another bad question is when you ask a question that was just answered.  Gonna be getting be getting some frightening looks from the instructor when that happens...  But sometimes when you stay quiet and train sometimes the instructor will answer it or demonstrate it.
> 
> @drop bear what does that quote means?



The terry Pratchett's one?


----------



## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> And you have been told, in conjunction with that advice, that there are times and places for questions.  Honestly, sometimes I wonder if you read past the first sentence in a reply...
> 
> But what does that have to do with your initial idea here?



Some people have said that but there have been other people who have said that questions should be rarely if ever asked.


----------



## Chris Parker

Provide quotes to show this, please.


----------



## PhotonGuy

drop bear said:


> Lol.
> 
> That was me.
> 
> Shut up and train falls directly into the principles of goal focused training.


I don't remember you saying that, I particularly remember other people saying that. You might've said it, about shutting up and training, but there are some viewpoints expressed on these boards that students should hardly ever ask questions, even during breaks in between drills or before or after class. Basically, that a sensei should be a military DI.


----------



## drop bear

PhotonGuy said:


> I don't remember you saying that, I particularly remember other people saying that. You might've said it, about shutting up and training, but there are some viewpoints expressed on these boards that students should hardly ever ask questions, even during breaks in between drills or before or after class. Basically, that a sensei should be a military DI.




Depends on the coach and the questions.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Some people have said that but there have been other people who have said that questions should be rarely if ever asked.



:bs:

I'm going to hoist the BS flag now. I do not believe that anybody here has said anything of the sort.
I'd like to see some quotes to support this claim, or a retraction.


----------



## tshadowchaser

some people still look at a martial arts instructor as some great spiritual all knowing person. These people will ask all sorts of questions of the instructor . If asked before or after a class I see little problem with it or with the answer "how the hell should I know".  
Some people need guidance on a particular issue  that may be related to violence, bullying,etc.  Those question can and perhaps should be answered by the instructor if he has the knowledge and is a responsible enough person to answer intelligently. Once again they should be addressed before ofr after class unless they relate directly to the class at that time.
Questions about religion should be addressed after or before class or not at all unless the instructor is ordained or a monk.


----------



## Reedone816

To my limited understanding of this thread, everybody agree that training hard is good, just how hard it is that still disputed in accordance of understanding.
Perfect technique execution is not equal to perfect understanding of the technique.
Now rushing the training may not makes you faster understood of the technique concept, because it is of mind, sometimes you just need to sleep on it after exhausting in technique rolling and asking question.
How fast is it? Depends on persons, some can get faster some took a time, the external factor that catalysing it are instructors, training mates and methodology.
You just need to find the most effective and efficient spot between cost and benefit.
Back to analogy in running, what if it is like this:
The instructor give you a task to go from point A to point B, and to count how many tiles in side walk is missing.
I believe you'll adjust your speed accordingly.
Now the question is, how many instructors would give a hint of counting the tiles instead of just ordered you to move from point A to point B?
Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk


----------



## donald1

drop bear said:


> The terry Pratchett's one?



Yes,  I didn't quite understand that one


----------



## Buka

A lot of us older guys say, "Shut up and just train" but it is not meant in a literal sense. And I do not believe any instructor on this forum minds questions at all. (or any instructor that I know)

But, you get a student every now and then that asks a lot of questions that he really doesn't care about. Usually to kiss up to the instructor. As an instructor, you answer them for a while, then lay that phrase on them. But if his work ethic (which is BIG) matches his curiosity, you just love it. If not, "shut up and train" said with a wink or in a friendly professional way, usually helps the both of you. Certainly saves a lot of valuable dojo time.


----------



## donald1

PhotonGuy said:


> I don't remember you saying that, I particularly remember other people saying that. You might've said it, about shutting up and training, but there are some viewpoints expressed on these boards that students should hardly ever ask questions, even during breaks in between drills or before or after class. Basically, that a sensei should be a military DI.



Are you talking about a drill sergeant?  And instructor should be strict because that helps the students.  But I wouldn't go as far as drill instructor.  There are many qualities a drill instructor reserves like respect,  limit questions and keep them on topic, ect.  Things that should also apply to a instructor but some things a drill sergeant will do that is better a instructor not to do 

In one of my previous posts it must have gotten auto corrected it posted on topic and not interesting the teacher i intended on topic and not interrupting the teacher


----------



## Xue Sheng

Buka said:


> A lot of us older guys say, "Shut up and just train" but it is not meant in a literal sense. And I do not believe any instructor on this forum minds questions at all. (or any instructor that I know)



Yup, there is the proof....I'm old :uhyeah:



Buka said:


> But, you get a student every now and then that asks a lot of questions that he really doesn't care about. Usually to kiss up to the instructor. As an instructor, you answer them for a while, then lay that phrase on them. But if his work ethic (which is BIG) matches his curiosity, you just love it. If not, "shut up and train" said with a wink or in a friendly professional way, usually helps the both of you. Certainly saves a lot of valuable dojo time.



A few years back my Xingyi shifu was talking about standing in santi (while we were all standing in it, including him) and he said that if you have joint pain you need to tell me about it because I need adjust your posture....but if it is muscle pain, shut up, I don't want to hear it..... I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that attitude in martial arts... I actually find it refreshing....but then...as previously mentioned....I'm old :EG:


----------



## PhotonGuy

In this thread some people have been saying that Im trying to be right about stuff. As it is, what this thread is about and what philosophy is about more or less is opinion and point of view, so there is no right or wrong.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> In this thread some people have been saying that Im trying to be right about stuff. As it is, what this thread is about and what philosophy is about more or less is opinion and point of view, so there is no right or wrong.



Well, no... words have definitions, and if you're using the word "philosophy" in way that doesn't match the definition... you're wrong.


----------



## Shajikfer

I suppose it depends what I am in the mood for. Do I want to get there quickly and expend energy, than I will. Do I want to drink in my surroundings, perhaps I would walk, though I suppose I could do that running or walking.

Given you are taught adequately, for the year or years it may take another to get their ranking, it may take you a fraction of the time to do so as well, or perhaps it will take you far longer. 

Do what feels right at the time the option becomes available. That's when I fall back on intuition and it  usually doesn't lead me too far off the beaten path.


----------

