# Slashing knife attacks gone wrong...



## HKphooey (Aug 23, 2006)

There is another thread going on in the kenpo section and would like to get some more input from those who also like to play with knives.  

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37764

Do you think slashes are hard to combat? 

And do you think a defense against a slash that may not be solid, can end up putting you in an even more dangerous situation?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.  Looking for info to add to my notes. :asian:


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## KenpoTex (Aug 23, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> There is another thread going on in the kenpo section and would like to get some more input from those who also like to play with knives.
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37764


Interesting thread, there were a lot of good points made. Not to re-hash the other thread, but I personally feel that the Kenpo system is somewhat lacking in the area of knife defense. There are not any specific techniques to deal with slashes, and I feel that the rest of the knife tech.'s (all designed to defend against thrusts) are optimistic at best. I'm sure they would proabably be fine as they are taught, against a committed thrust, but against the rapid-fire "shank" attack that seems to be the norm (just based on stories and reports I've heard from LEO's, CO's, etc.) I just don't see them working...anyway, enough said about that.



			
				HKphooey said:
			
		

> Do you think slashes are hard to combat?


I really hope that I never have go empty-hand vs. knife. That said, I would "prefer" to deal with a slashing attack than with a thrusting attack simply because with few exceptions (slash to the neck/throat, etc.) the wound inflicted by a slashing attack is less likely to be fatal. 

That said, slashing attacks are not easy to deal with. Circular attacks are a problem because, as several people discussed in the other thread, you can change the arc of the blade. In fact, in knife training, this is one of my favorite tricks. Start with a wide slash to get my partner to react, then once they've moved inside, shorten the arc and cut their arms/hands. 
Another problem with circular attacks is that it's a little harder to get to the outside if you weren't there to begin with. I personally prefer to be on the outside so that my opponent can't use his "off" hand as well.




			
				HKphooey said:
			
		

> *And do you think a defense against a slash that may not be solid, can end up putting you in an even more dangerous situation*?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your feedback. Looking for info to add to my notes. :asian:


AFAIK, *ANY* technique that is not solid will put you in a worse position. It doesn't matter what type of attack you're defending against, if you're technique isn't solid, you need new technique.

just my $0.02


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## Mike Hamer (Jul 22, 2008)

I like to use a crossing hands motion against slashes, always moving to the outside if possible, but personally I'd rather just create distance rather than have to face the threat dead on.


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## arnisador (Jul 22, 2008)

Slashes are generally less deadly if they it and easier to handle than stabs. In the FMAs we will often pass them, but it depends on where it is!


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## Skpotamus (Jul 23, 2008)

From my training experiences, it seems like slashes are easier to defend against than a thrusting attack, especially a sewing machine thrusting attack.  

If I get caught flat footed, I have a chance to deflect a slash while my chances of deflecting a thrust I'm not ready for suck big time.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 19, 2008)

the focus should be = taking the focus OFF defending against the knife and OFF defending oneself entirely...  the knife can do you no harm without someone to wield it... if you destroy that governing factor the knife immediately returns to its in-animate non-threatening state....  
the focus should be a completely offensive 100% me 0% them attitude...as leonidas said in 300... "leave nothing but take everything"

I need to be the first one to cause effects in the attacker not him....action is always stronger than reaction.... defending , dueling or disarming is giving him more opportunities to score a mortal wound.... I need to shut down his central nervous system.... by crushing his throat ...breaking his neck whatever will render him non functional... not knocked out or unconcious but non-functional....dead or coma


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## Skpotamus (Aug 19, 2008)

Blacklion, How do you deal with the initial attack though?  The all offense no defense mindset only works when you can overwhelm the other person before they can get off any attacks.  When someone brings a knife into an altercation, they typically know it's there a LONG time before you do.


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## arnisador (Aug 19, 2008)

This is the prison style attack--put up the empty hand, in the lead, to deflect the counter, and stab beneath it repeatedly like a Roman soldier. You need to get offline from it or you'll be nipped, then nailed.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 20, 2008)

a knife is felt not seen....most of the time you will never know there is a knife.....if a someone approaches in a challenging way(we all know what this looks like) you assume he knows what you know...it is your responsibilty to preotect your personal space... if you are already being stabbed or sliced then you are already in big trouble....even still, you need to injure him repetedly and shut down his central nervous system the man isnt going to socialize with the knife by waving it around in your face becuase he knows he will be successful by ambushing you with it... get in and injure him repeatedly to the weak portions of the anatomy....you can take a slash what you dont want is penetration...so what if there is some blood, it may be his.....  you cant waste time, you should be able to get in on him before he deploys and begins his attack....   
they dont train techniques....they want meat they want death and they want in then and there....  get in there and put him out


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## Franc0 (Aug 20, 2008)

HKphooey said:


> Do you think slashes are hard to combat?
> 
> And do you think a defense against a slash that may not be solid, can end up putting you in an even more dangerous situation?  :asian:


 
In the hands of the common numbnut, it's about 50/50.
In the hands of a good knifer, either you're screwed regardless of the attack, or like Black Lion said, you'll never see it coming.

Franco


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## Skpotamus (Aug 20, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> a knife is felt not seen....most of the time you will never know there is a knife.....if a someone approaches in a challenging way(we all know what this looks like) you assume he knows what you know...it is your responsibilty to preotect your personal space... if you are already being stabbed or sliced then you are already in big trouble....even still, you need to injure him repetedly and shut down his central nervous system the man isnt going to socialize with the knife by waving it around in your face becuase he knows he will be successful by ambushing you with it... get in and injure him repeatedly to the weak portions of the anatomy....you can take a slash what you dont want is penetration...so what if there is some blood, it may be his..... you cant waste time, you should be able to get in on him before he deploys and begins his attack....
> they dont train techniques....they want meat they want death and they want in then and there.... get in there and put him out


 
So basically, if someone looks like they might be about to attack you, you beat them to death before they get a chance?  Doesn't that make _you_ the bad guy?  

If a person has a knife hidden in their hand when they walk up to you, how do you defend their initial attack?  An all out assault on a person with a knife seems like a good way to get stabbed and slashed repeatedly unless you put them down with a single strike (which is fairly rare from what I've seen).


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 20, 2008)

HKphooey said:


> There is another thread going on in the kenpo section and would like to get some more input from those who also like to play with knives.
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37764



Input from others is all good. But it like opinions, everyone has one. 



HKphooey said:


> Do you think slashes are hard to combat?



Yes, Slashes are hard to combat. 

Are they harder than Stabs?

Compare the committed stab versus the committed slash:
The single step in and stab versus the single step in and slash. 
The stab usually is straight up the center line and the person by mistake can go left or right and avoid the knife. They might be in a worse place depending upon the opponents off hand. 
The committed slash backhand allows one to stop it before it reaches you, and to trap yourself up on the outside. This is pretty good place to be. 
The committed forehand slash puts one in the mid set to get to the out side. This is done in many FMA's by passing or slipping the attack by you. If it is high then one can take the attack high and go underneath. If it is low then one needs to give positive direction to the person to push back into them but not too much energy to cause them to instinctively retract, such as with a hard block. 

As with anything as one increases the variables the complexity of the equation goes up. So the degrees of movement and options that are allowed by the attacker increases the complexity and difficulty to defend against. So, if the person is allowed to change levels of the blade or to change speed or to change direction then complexity is increased and the difficulty is increased. 

As to the prison shanking move, try a similar move with the forehand slash and see what if any techniques work. 

I have had to defend myself against knives before. It sucks and is scary. I personally try to get through the initial assault with a pass/slip and create space and get an improvised weapon. The weapon makes them think twice as well. Even if it is your belt for distance attack and defense or a shoe or loose gravel to throw, it gives them pause which hopefully will make them think twice. 

But, as in all cases, if you do not see it coming and your are lucky to be stabbed or slashed in a non vital area then once has to keep composure and to keep to the game plan of surviving. Sometimes one does not know they were cut or stabbed until they see the wound or the blood or until the immediate adrenaline wears off. 



HKphooey said:


> And do you think a defense against a slash that may not be solid, can end up putting you in an even more dangerous situation?



If by solid you mean rigid then I would have to say any rigid technique that does not break, damage the opponent to drop the weapon gives them energy and direction to counter you easier. 

If by solid you mean good foundation and listening to the energy of your opponent and reading them with your body and senses, then yes any technique done poorly can put you into a worse situation. A slash can open  one up literally to a major abdomen wound even if that was not the intent of the attacker, by a poorly executed technique. The same can be said for a stab as one could have a major organ damaged as well. So as in most things it is situational, but the forehand slash in general will be a difficult attack to defend against for many. 



HKphooey said:


> Thanks in advance for your feedback.  Looking for info to add to my notes. :asian:



:asian:


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## BLACK LION (Aug 21, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> So basically, if someone looks like they might be about to attack you, you beat them to death before they get a chance? Doesn't that make _you_ the bad guy?


  you dont beat the the other guy to death(implies no skill or self control) you render him non functional or non threatening by focused attacks to areas that will give a spinal reflex...and inturn give you injury....you continue attacking until they are no longer a threat...   we are talking about a knife attack... not some drunk a-hole in a bar that can be talked into his friends car....  if he reaches for something take him down/ if he says hes got a knife and hes gonna cut you believe him and take him down/  everyone has a natural rythm and anyone who carries a knife develops noticeable rythm... there are tell tell signs and one is a gut feeling....        you know when the last time i was in a "fist fight" in the street....  i cant remember.... why.... becuase I have realized through the years that ill will is not to be reasoned with toe to toe but advantageously commanded.... I dont square off... i look for weakness and I exploit it... and knowing this keeps me out of conflict because  i watch everyone and everything.... i dont go around dark corners wondering... i go around them waiting....  

i had a good friend once who was a multi discipline and multi level black belt....he was an outstanding fighter and teacher.... he was excellent in fact...   one night  he responded to his brother being robbed by some gang members outside of a popular l.a. nightclub ...they had already grabbed his watch and some money and they demanded more... my freind being the good man he was proceeded to duel with 4-5 gang members in an all out streetbrawl while his freinds and brother stood by actionless... he fought and beat all five but in the end one managed to slip away grab a knife and pierce his aorta and heart and ran into the night.... he turned exitedly and repeated " i got em, i got em" ....he then unknowingly fell dead    



Skpotamus said:


> If a person has a knife hidden in their hand when they walk up to you, how do you defend their initial attack? An all out assault on a person with a knife seems like a good way to get stabbed and slashed repeatedly unless you put them down with a single strike (which is fairly rare from what I've seen).


the answer is that you do not defend... you are the initial attack....you were put there to take him down or be taken down.... which would you prefer...   and a put down in a single shot is not the goal... its repeated unanswered injury inflicting trauma on the cns and brain...    every human is succeptible to nerve damage some jsut have more meat in between... and eye has no meat... a trachea has not real fat or muscle to protect it and neither do the testes....injury sets up further inury...same as a bunch of slashes leading single mortal wound.....    a good way to get stabbed is to try to duel with the knife.... when its his brain and central nervous system you want... a vicous attack is simple and you already have the fear and adrenaline to drive you


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## Bodhisattva (Aug 21, 2008)

HKphooey said:


> There is another thread going on in the kenpo section and would like to get some more input from those who also like to play with knives.
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37764
> 
> ...



Anyone training "knife defense" is deluded.

If you want to learn knife defense, learn the two-on-one position from wrestling.


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