# Ki " Inner Energy " ??



## IFKQ80 (Jun 16, 2004)

I don't understand many things about Ki " inner energy " all I know is that it's located in the Tandan and it makes you stronger in different way's !! But I'm sure there is more into it, I hope someone can explain it to me?



I even hear people say something like you can knockout someone with your Ki without touching him/her " hmm Strange ", I saw some video clip's of Ushiba " the founder of Aikido" doing some strange things to his student's with out even touching them is that true " with respect to him of course " ? 



Need more information if anyone can help I would be more then happy?

http://p.creantor.online.fr/Aikido/OSENSE-N.MPEG


----------



## Scout_379 (Jul 6, 2004)

I also don't know much about ki, only what I have heard.  But it does make you stronger and more focused, if you can feel it and sense it.  Ki or Chi is supposedly present in all things, living and non-living. In people, it is (usually) centered in the tanden, but it flows throughout our bodies like a metaphysical circulatory system. You are supposed to be able to develop and strengthen your ki and awareness of ki through meditation and breathing excercises. Practice in the MA's also help to develop this sense, especially in tai-chi and aikido.

I beleive that it is possible to perform many feats through the proper manipulation of ki, but it takes very much time and effort. I'm talking about long days of meditaion and practice over many years!! And to be able to knock out or kill a person through the use of ki alone would take a lifetime, but nobody has that kind of time anymore. Those who do practice such ascetic disciplines are becoming fewer and their knowledge lost.

I'm sure the founder of Aikido had developed his ki to the point where he could throw a person with the flick of his wrist. But he did touch them, feel out their ki, find where it was weakest, and throw accordingly.

I personally would like to know more about ki, and how to develop it. I get some lessons from my Sensei once in a while, but i would like to know more.


----------



## muaythaifreak (Jul 6, 2004)

:uhyeah: I would love to see someone throw another person with their mind.  I'd also love to have a spot on the next mars mission.  I fear the latter will take place first.


----------



## Scout_379 (Jul 7, 2004)

Why would the masters of old have devoted their lives to such a concept if they had not made at least some progress?


----------



## The Kai (Jul 7, 2004)

Most of the old masters treated ki energy as abyproduct of thier physical training not a replacement

Todd


----------



## hippy (Jul 23, 2004)

i dont understand how to make my ki work for me either. i'm a 3rd dan in wado-ryu, 2nd dan in muchindo (old okinawan karate style), 1st dan in iai-jutsu, i'm not even close to the basics of channeling my ki.

i have seen demos of masters getting a line of 10 students, having one student choose a number between 1 and 10, then seeing the master punch the first student in a way that made a student further down the line (appropriate to the number called earlier) fold over as if they were the ones punched.
i know what your thinking, it was staged, it was rehearsed. i'm a sceptic in this types of public 'tricks', i couldn't find a way of explaining them at all, and i did try.

tai-chi practitioners seem to learn about chi (ki) from day one of their lessons, and how to beat your opponent with it, instead of muscle power. maybe u will find your answers there, good luck !


----------



## Firona (Jul 26, 2004)

Chi Gong uses the principles of chi (which is the same as ki just chinese) to protect their bodies from physical harm. I have 2 friends who just started taking classes a month gone and from what I have seen from my guest view of it at one of their classes it works pretty well. I think the biggest part of working with ki is believing you can do it. Manipulation starts with the subconscious through visualization and if you doubt your ability to work it it won't work at all. I think the best thing to do is find someone who can instruct you on how to 'find your ki' and take it slowly from the beginning.


----------



## DeLamar.J (Jul 30, 2004)

IFKQ80 said:
			
		

> I don't understand many things about Ki " inner energy " all I know is that it's located in the Tandan and it makes you stronger in different way's !! But I'm sure there is more into it, I hope someone can explain it to me?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just what exactly is energy? Let's consider the word energy in terms of how it's used in the martial arts. There are two camps: the mystical and the physical. 

It should come as no surprise that there are proclaimed masters of the martial arts who claim to channel energy into different parts of their bodies, to use it at different times for different purposes. That sounds very impressive and magical, and sets them on a much higher level than their students. Of course, they never define this energy, except by calling it by the nebulous and equally vague phrase: life force. But what is that? They tell us that science has yet to understand this force. Yet in this day and age when we have mapped the human genome, unraveled the mystery of DNA, can clone mammals, and have plotted out all the various parts of the brain and understand their functions, it seems like a weak argument to say that scientists cannot find this powerful and all-pervasive life force a force that uneducated peasants have known about for thousands of years. Ki (or chi) has all the appearance of folklore and legend.

I shall tell you exactly what energy is. Energy is physical force... pressure... generated by muscular exertion or the momentum of movement both mechanical actions. No martial art technique happens without movement of some kind. Take away the movement, and you take away the technique. Effective energy is generated by good body mechanics, understanding of timing and footwork, and good muscle control.

Knowing now what energy is, I have a question for you to ponder. Can energy be stored?

If we think of energy like electricity, and the body like a battery... then no, energy cannot be stored. It cant be built up in your stomach, and then shot out through your arm into your enemy, knocking him on the ground. Such is the stuff of comic book heroes and bad martial arts movies. And yet there are martial arts that would have you believe this is what they can do. In the twenty years I've been involved in martial arts, I have never witnessed or felt anything that leads me to believe that there is any truth behind that point of view. 

There are those who promote the idea that chi or ki can be used to stop or absorb strikes. But these are tricks, similar to those used by circus side show performers, that anyone can learn. 

But if we think of energy as force, generated through physical actions, this gives us another, more realistic concept. Like a spring in a mouse trap, energy can be stored or at least built up. When you pull back the spring on a mouse trap, and set the lever, you are building up and storing potential energy, which is released later when a mouse tries to eat the cheese. The trap is tripped, and the spring releases the energy that it had been storing, breaking the mouses neck.

The bodys structure can be used this way, and that is an area of serious advanced study. The spine can be twisted, the knees bent, the weight shifted, all in ways that build up energy that is not used in that moment, but used in the next. This knowledge is vital, and should be studied after the basics are understood.

Most of all, what is important is clarity of thought in these kinds of matters. If you dont clearly understand these ideas, or if you have been deceived by someone who sounds very convincing and is trying to sell you on the idea of magic powers, then it is much harder to master these concepts.


----------



## Scout_379 (Aug 1, 2004)

> Most of the old masters treated ki energy as abyproduct of thier physical training not a replacement
> 
> 
> Todd


gotcha, good point! I read my two posts and was embarrased by their naivety and childishness.


DeLamar, I really enjoyed that post, unlike others who question and insult when it comes to this subject, you have made your point and explained your opinion. Thanks, and I hope other can learn from you.
although I like muaythaifreak's creative quotes:uhyeah: 


Personally, I believe that most "tricks" performed by those claiming to have an intimate knowledge of their ki, such as the above story:


> i have seen demos of masters getting a line of 10 students, having one student choose a number between 1 and 10, then seeing the master punch the first student in a way that made a student further down the line (appropriate to the number called earlier) fold over as if they were the ones punched.


are fake. This one in particular seems like a psychosomatic response, IMO, it reeks of hypnotic suggestion and application. a (good) hypnotist could do the same thing, but he wouldn't even need to punch, just say a work or flick a finger to those under the proper suggestion. 

but other stories are harder to explain....

Instead of quoting some bs like I have done in another thread of the same name, I'll tell of an excercise I did in class.

OK. here's what we were doing: we would pair off first, and one person would close thier eyes (call them Person A). the other(person B), eyes open, would stand square in front of the other, both hands pulled back (or in a chambered postion as i've seen others describe it).
B makes a slow punch, and using imagination, or "feeling the ki flow"(not the right words but I'm tired tonite), projects the "energy" (not in the scientific notion, as DeLamar said) in the direction of the punch. Person B make the choice of punching towards the abdomen or head. Person A, eyes still closed, tries to feel where the punch is aimed.

Say I was person B, and a sensei A, sensei A called it _every time, _before my punch was even completed. we ran through this several times. With differing partners too. I did not have much luck as person A. But my sister was able to call the shots most of the time and was genuinely surprised by it! I encourage others to try this. OR, if you thinks its all BS, try identifying the punch by sound alone. good luck! 

Another excercise we did a couple times, was to have Person A(for lack of a new description:uhyeah: ) close their eyes and stand still and silent. Person B, starting from a position relatively far away would walk as silently as possible towards the other, directing their ki forwards, Person A would open their eyes when they felt the others approach, to check. for safety against BS "readings", Person B does not necessarily have to move. 

we do some other stuff related to Ki sometimes, but very seldom, and nothing like no-touch-knockouts, which I will never believe until I see.

In my dojo, we do not think of ki as some mystical power or other unexplainable phenomena. and to say that science has not ever proven anything about ki does make it seem like some kind of cultish BS, I agree. this is the first I have heard about this. But, I have felt it, others have felt it, and we all want to learn more.

DeLamar, all that you mentioned about the proper knowledge of the body, its workings, and the scientific approach for an effective strike, is done. And I have had many strikes explained to me in crucial detail with reference to the physics and biomechanics behind the technique(one sensei is a scientist). Ki is just a little side thing we do.


----------

