# Big Complaint



## RCastillo (Oct 11, 2003)

I went to a fancy athletic club today to get some private work in for myself. About an hr later some IKC people(who are way lower ranked than I am) proceed to take over the floor.(they do have a class there during the week) The just ignored me and showed no respect at all, didn't say a word. I quietly went next door as I assumed they were there for a test, or something.

As I worked out in the next room, they didn't even have the courtesy to say anything as they interupted my workouts several times.

Is this the way those people are brought up? No manners?

Naturally, I didn't say any thing as these are not my people, but I was brought up respecting a BB, no matter who they were.

Sad indeed.


----------



## pknox (Oct 11, 2003)

RCastillo:

Were you wearing your uniform (specifically your belt)?  Is it possible they didn't see you?  If you were and they did, I would definitely mention it to the instructor, as that sounds like something he/she would want to know -- sounds like it could be an excellent opportunity for a lecture about the core values the arts are supposed to teach us.


----------



## RCastillo (Oct 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *RCastillo:
> 
> Were you wearing your uniform (specifically your belt)?  Is it possible they didn't see you?  If you were and they did, I would definitely mention it to the instructor, as that sounds like something he/she would want to know -- sounds like it could be an excellent opportunity for a lecture about the core values the arts are supposed to teach us. *



I sure was, decked all out. So much for values.


----------



## pknox (Oct 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *I sure was, decked all out. So much for values. *



Please tell me the instructor wasn't with the group when it happened.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 11, 2003)

I hear Rodney Dangerfield saying...... "I get no respect..... No respect at all....!  then loosens uniform top and straightens belt, while eyes roll up.....:rofl: :asian:


----------



## pknox (Oct 11, 2003)

That's a hard move to pull off without the requisite red necktie.


----------



## Brother John (Oct 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *I went to a fancy athletic club today to get some private work in for myself. About an hr later some IKC people(who are way lower ranked than I am) proceed to take over the floor.(they do have a class there during the week) The just ignored me and showed no respect at all, didn't say a word. I quietly went next door as I assumed they were there for a test, or something.
> 
> As I worked out in the next room, they didn't even have the courtesy to say anything as they interupted my workouts several times.
> ...


Don't paint w/ a large brush. Maybe these were some bad seeds, maybe their instructor would have 'called'em on it' if he/she/they'd seen this conduct.
I don't know much about he IKC, but Kenpoists of any ilk are still humans.
Your Brother
John


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> I went to a fancy athletic club today and some IKC people proceed to take over the floor.  The just ignored me and showed no respect at all, didn't say a word.
> 
> Is this the way those people are brought up? No manners?
> *



Well, complain to the source of their system.... Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux......@

http://www.ikca-kenpo.com/

:asian:


----------



## Kalicombat (Oct 12, 2003)

Ricardo,
   If not Vic or Chuck, get a hold of Joey Cadena. He is out of Falfurrias, and is the head instructor of the IKCA'ers at the CCAC.

Better yet, find out when they are having class and drop in on them. Introduce yourself, and let Joey know you recognize his students from thier lack of respect. 

Gary C.


----------



## stickarts (Oct 12, 2003)

in general, good manners seems have to been declining most everywhere!
all we can do is be the ones to set the good example even though is sure isn't always easy!!


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by stickarts _*
> In general, good manners seems have to been declining most everywhere!
> *



This one really amazes me.  Being courteous not only applies in the Martial Arts but really in Life in general!  This is something that should be taught in all areas of our society from day one.  

Whether you call them formalities, protocol, behavior, p's and I'd, being courteous, mannerly, considerate, respectful, thoughtful, or other words I didn't think of, it never hurts, it buys a lot of social real estate, and is just plain good business!

Where did we go wrong?


----------



## RCastillo (Oct 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> *Ricardo,
> If not Vic or Chuck, get a hold of Joey Cadena. He is out of Falfurrias, and is the head instructor of the IKCA'ers at the CCAC.
> 
> ...



I did just that, write Mr. Cadena, with all due respect to him/his wife. My main point to him is that the young have no ehtics/manners, so I do not blame him/fault him because he has youngsters under him that can't think.:asian: 

P.S. This was very hard for me to do.


----------



## CoolKempoDude (Oct 12, 2003)

there is an old saying " you can learn MA but nobody will teach you how to behave, ONLY yourself"

i see people showing disrespect and being selfish almost every where i go. It is really sad.

you can complain this to the head of instructor and if it doesn't work, file a complain at better business bureau. 

your problem will be solved


----------



## RCastillo (Oct 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Don't paint w/ a large brush. Maybe these were some bad seeds, maybe their instructor would have 'called'em on it' if he/she/they'd seen this conduct.
> I don't know much about he IKC, but Kenpoists of any ilk are still humans.
> Your Brother
> John *



I didn't, and I know we're all human, and I myself pray, and work everyday to be better. Problem is, most people don't think anymore.:asian:


----------



## RCastillo (Oct 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *Please tell me the instructor wasn't with the group when it happened. *



Didn't see him, cause knowing Mr. Cadena, he seems to be pretty nice.:asian:


----------



## RCastillo (Oct 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I hear Rodney Dangerfield saying...... "I get no respect..... No respect at all....!  then loosens uniform top and straightens belt, while eyes roll up.....:rofl: :asian: *



Don't laugh. I just saw a RD doll for sale at Eckerds Pharmacy the other day. He must be broke, or maybe cause of Halloween.


----------



## Shodan (Oct 12, 2003)

I have to agree that this was really rude of those people.  I was taught to be respectful of anyone that outranks me- but also lower ranks- everyone deserves respect.  Outside of martial arts, I was taught to respect everyone- but especially my elders.  There is a lot of this missing today and it is sad.  

  Even if you weren't in uniform, you should have received your due respect for having been in the room first and trying to work out.

  :asian:  :karate:


----------



## molson (Oct 17, 2003)

It must be their youth. If I went to a gym and saw another Kenpoist working out, even though not my system, I would get excited and try to make some type of contact. You did the right thing.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 17, 2003)

It is certainly refreshing to hear a lot of your positive comments regarding the respect or general courtesy issues...... Keep it up guys... you are my kinda martial artists & a credit to your instructors, regardless of system!

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!:cheers:

:asian:


----------



## Spud (Oct 22, 2003)

Can we keep in mind it is also fairly intimidating for a low ranking student to come up and introduce themselves to a black belt whose face they dont recognize wearing a different uniform? 

Id expect that they meant no slight, but didnt know better. A black belt also had the opportunity to be quite an ambassador and introduce himself and subtlety guide some inexperienced students on what a more suitable protocol might be.  This could have easily been a win-win situation for everyone involved. 

Respectfully,

-spud-
:asian:


----------



## RCastillo (Oct 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Spud _
> *Can we keep in mind it is also fairly intimidating for a low ranking student to come up and introduce themselves to a black belt whose face they dont recognize wearing a different uniform?
> 
> Id expect that they meant no slight, but didnt know better. A black belt also had the opportunity to be quite an ambassador and introduce himself and subtlety guide some inexperienced students on what a more suitable protocol might be.  This could have easily been a win-win situation for everyone involved.
> ...



True also. I wrote to their Instructor a very careful, respectful letter. (I do know him as well) and the issue was resolved.:asian:


----------



## Michael Billings (Oct 22, 2003)

Good for you Ricardo.  What was the response and was a remedy included?  I have wondered how to let an instructor know his students were acting condesending, egotistical, sarcastic, etc. when they did not know who I was (I had not changed yet), it was directed to other attendees at a seminar and my students were shocked Black Belts acted that way.  I had to go into the old "Maturity in the Art" and "Back in the Day" stories.  

-Michael


----------



## RCastillo (Oct 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Good for you Ricardo.  What was the response and was a remedy included?  I have wondered how to let an instructor know his students were acting condesending, egotistical, sarcastic, etc. when they did not know who I was (I had not changed yet), it was directed to other attendees at a seminar and my students were shocked Black Belts acted that way.  I had to go into the old "Maturity in the Art" and "Back in the Day" stories.
> 
> -Michael *



The Instructor felt it was not done on purpose, but they should've known better. I stressed it was not my intention to tell him what to do, since I'm not over him, nor am I compelled ethically to tell him how to run his business. I wanted to be very careful doing this. This was hard to do, because I really don't like to say anything to others, but I felt my 22 years in the business ought to count for something, especially when these guys are rookies.:asian:


----------



## pknox (Oct 22, 2003)

And if he was the classy guy that I'm sure he is, I hope he took it in stride and realized that you were in fact doing him a huge favor by letting him know this.  If I were the instructor in question, I would probably be more upset if you _didn't_ tell me about how my students were acting, because my ignorance of it would leave me powerless to correct it.


----------



## RCastillo (Oct 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *And if he was the classy guy that I'm sure he is, I hope he took it in stride and realized that you were in fact doing him a huge favor by letting him know this.  If I were the instructor in question, I would probably be more upset if you didn't tell me about how my students were acting, because my ignorance of it would leave me powerless to correct it. *



You got it. I'll be sure not to upset you! I don't want one of these.................:btg:


----------



## pknox (Oct 22, 2003)

Narry a need to worry, my friend.


----------



## RCastillo (Oct 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *Narry a need to worry, my friend.  *



Wouldn't you know it........I forgot my cup!


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> Wouldn't you know it........I forgot my cup!
> *



Good now......Ricardo:btg:The Golden One


----------



## Michael Billings (Oct 23, 2003)

Thanks for sharing ... but not the :btg: 

-Michael


----------



## jdmills (Oct 26, 2003)

I agree that senior Balack Belts can be very intimidating to some of lower rank.  I can understand that they could be intimidated but to me this is about basic courtesy and is not entirely based on martial arts heirarchy or rank.  Even if a lower rank student from another system had the room  and a black belt wanted to use it, it is just common courtesy to say something like "Excuse me, I hate to interrupt your training but I am scheduled for this room at 7:00."  

Anyone with any manners that has to get someone else out of a room that they are scheduled to use (if they just want to use the room and are not scheduled for it it's even worse) needs to demonstrate some kind of deference.  At least I would, whether I ranked the person or even if I was the person's boss at work.  If I need a room, I would say, please excuse me, I hate to ask you to leave but I need this room.

I guess I'm just getting old (I'm 40) but I just don't understand the kids these days.


----------



## Kenpomachine (Oct 26, 2003)

This summer, we've used to share the room with many people from different martial arts. Asking previously whether they mind or not to the ones who arrived first, regardless of rank 

But that was only training and not classes.


----------



## theletch1 (Oct 30, 2003)

> Where did we go wrong?



It was that whole 1960's "If it feels good, do it!" thing.  I think we can see a definate drop in quality of the behavior of the general population.  Sad but true.


----------



## jdmills (Oct 30, 2003)

There also seems to be a relatively recent attitude arise that nobody can comment on the correctness of another person's behavior since "you have not walked in their shoes and don't understand what it is like to be (insert category - minority, male, female, rich, poor, disabled, . . . )".  Of course it is true that I do not know what it is like to be another person but some things are just WRONG.

:soapbox:


----------



## Titan Uk (Oct 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Don't paint w/ a large brush. Maybe these were some bad seeds, maybe their instructor would have 'called'em on it' if he/she/they'd seen this conduct.
> I don't know much about he IKC, but Kenpoists of any ilk are still humans.
> Your Brother
> John *



It doesn't matter who you are or where you are there are always someone who will not show any respect to you. Unfortunately that seems to be the way things are nowdays


----------



## rmcrobertson (Oct 30, 2003)

Well, lots of different ideologies besides the Left have their little PC moments and biases, don't they?

More to the point--I don't think it's politics as such, or rather I hope not. I think it's an ugly outcropping of the history of kenpo as a "radical," art that does away with tradition in the interest of efficiency. And I think it's a consequence of the growing attitude that this or that part of the system can just be dispensed with as "useless..." or that the salutation, "doesn't mean," anything, in terms of history or manners or fighting or anything else.

There a lot to learn in martial arts. And some folks--most folks in fact--won't learn them just by being told. They need physical lessons--and I swear, we all need to add to the list of things those, "useless," sets and forms teach this: COURTESY.

I think about this stuff because I was discussing with my original teacher, Toni Wasserberger, the fact that I'd noticed I was sometimes snapping problem students in half--or heading off their problems--with hard work on stances. I mean, can't-lift-your--foot-so-you-can't-be-a-bully hard work on stances. Like breaking a horse.

She cackled (trust me) and said, "Yeah, I know," and I flashed  back to more than many hot-*** days in her back yard, sweating my way through the kneels in Short 2, the old stance set...

Personally, I think that kind of behavior is arrogant and inexcusable. And I blame their instructor... 

Not to mention the fact that as far as I can see, more than half the fights we get into can be forestalled with a little courtesy. If that ain't a fighting application, I dunno what is...


----------



## Titan Uk (Oct 30, 2003)

I agree that the instructor can take some of the blame but when he is not present their students behave differently than when he is there. 

It is hard to identify students who have the wrong attitude but it can be done and has been done on several occasion at our club. Lessons were given out to point their error of their ways. Some stay (After learning an important lesson), some left (No loss to the style or club).

Courtesy does not cost you anything and it can get you great rewards.


----------

