# He Who Knows Not And He Knows Not



## PhotonGuy (Dec 15, 2020)

"He who knows not and he knows not, he is simple teach him" - Bruce Lee

A famous quote by Bruce Lee, and a really good quote too if you ask me, now if people would live up to it.


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## Steve (Dec 15, 2020)




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## isshinryuronin (Dec 15, 2020)

Steve said:


> View attachment 23374


I liked the chart you posted.  Very illustrative of self-awareness factors that affect us in all facets of life.

Socrates stated "conscious incompetence" (no. 2 in your chart) very well when he said "I know that I know nothing," which is the foundation of wisdom.  This isn't bad if it's balanced with some "conscious competence."  If you don't know that you're ignorant (no. 1), learning is impossible.

"Unconscious competence" (no. 4) to me is the most interesting for its Taoist reflections.  The sun doesn't know it's bright, the turtle doesn't know it's slow, nor the lion fierce.  IMO this is a goal in MA where we strive to let our technique and ki naturally flow from us, without  conscious thought or ego.  It becomes more true, more pure, more powerful.


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## dvcochran (Dec 16, 2020)

It worth including the entire quote. It is an excellent explanation of people. 

"He who knows not and knows not he knows - he is a fool - shun him,
He who knows not and knows he knows not - he is simple - teach him,
He who knows and knows not he knows - he is asleep - awaken him,
He who knows and knows that he knows - he is wise - follow him." 

Like the box diagram and Socrates, just about every philosopher out there has said this one way or another.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It worth including the entire quote. It is an excellent explanation of people.
> 
> "He who knows not and knows not he knows - he is a fool - shun him,
> He who knows not and knows he knows not - he is simple - teach him,
> ...


I love these quotes, but my only issue with this quote, is the idea of shunning the fool. There should be at least an attempt to show him that he knows not, so he can go from a fool to simple, rather than shunning him from the beginning.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 16, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I liked the chart you posted.  Very illustrative of self-awareness factors that affect us in all facets of life.
> 
> Socrates stated "conscious incompetence" (no. 2 in your chart) very well when he said "I know that I know nothing," which is the foundation of wisdom.  This isn't bad if it's balanced with some "conscious competence."  If you don't know that you're ignorant (no. 1), learning is impossible.
> 
> "Unconscious competence" (no. 4) to me is the most interesting for its Taoist reflections.  The sun doesn't know it's bright, the turtle doesn't know it's slow, nor the lion fierce.  IMO this is a goal in MA where we strive to let our technique and ki naturally flow from us, without  conscious thought or ego.  It becomes more true, more pure, more powerful.


The stages Steve posted are related to learning (usually specifically to task learning). So unconscious-competent is just not having to think about the thing to do it. Conscious-competent is being able to do the thing properly, but only with conscious thought. They're easy to understand in a MA context. First you don't know what a proper (kick/shoulder throw/whatever) is, until someone shows and explains. Then you know what it is, but can't replicate it. Then you can do it, but you're thinking about the bits you need to control. Then you do it enough that you just do it without thought.


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## Steve (Dec 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I love these quotes, but my only issue with this quote, is the idea of shunning the fool. There should be at least an attempt to show him that he knows not, so he can go from a fool to simple, rather than shunning him from the beginning.


Not knowing what you don't know is a natural first step (unconscious incompetence).  Some folks like to live in that box, and that's where you run into issues with the dunning/krueger effect.  

As a manager or coach, it's pretty easy to get people through that stage, if they're coachable.


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## Steve (Dec 16, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> The stages Steve posted are related to learning (usually specifically to task learning). So unconscious-competent is just not having to think about the thing to do it. Conscious-competent is being able to do the thing properly, but only with conscious thought. They're easy to understand in a MA context. First you don't know what a proper (kick/shoulder throw/whatever) is, until someone shows and explains. Then you know what it is, but can't replicate it. Then you can do it, but you're thinking about the bits you need to control. Then you do it enough that you just do it without thought.


Exactly, and it's actually a great counterpart to the idea of situational leadership and how, as a teacher/manager/coach, you would relate to people depending on where they are on that grid.

For example, as a coach, you don't relate to someone who is consciously incompetent the same way you would relate to someone who is unconsciously incompetent.


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## isshinryuronin (Dec 16, 2020)

To unknowingly know what you know without knowing you know it????

I think I'll have a few drinks and become "consciously unconscious."  Then it'll all make sense.


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## dvcochran (Dec 17, 2020)

Steve said:


> Exactly, and it's actually a great counterpart to the idea of situational leadership and how, as a teacher/manager/coach, you would relate to people depending on where they are on that grid.
> 
> For example, as a coach, you don't relate to someone who is consciously incompetent the same way you would relate to someone who is unconsciously incompetent.


Coach speak is just annoying. But it does solidify the old saying "those who can't, teach".


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## drop bear (Dec 17, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I love these quotes, but my only issue with this quote, is the idea of shunning the fool. There should be at least an attempt to show him that he knows not, so he can go from a fool to simple, rather than shunning him from the beginning.



You should always pity the fool.


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## dvcochran (Dec 18, 2020)

drop bear said:


> You should always pity the fool.


Mr. T or Klubber Lang?


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## dvcochran (Dec 18, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> To unknowingly know what you know without knowing you know it????
> 
> I think I'll have a few drinks and become "consciously unconscious."  Then it'll all make sense.


Is that the same as comfortably numb?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 18, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Coach speak is just annoying. But it does solidify the old saying "those who can't, teach".


"Coach speak"?


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## Steve (Dec 18, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> "Coach speak"?


???  Win one for the Gipper?


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## frank raud (Dec 18, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It worth including the entire quote. It is an excellent explanation of people.
> 
> "He who knows not and knows not he knows - he is a fool - shun him,
> He who knows not and knows he knows not - he is simple - teach him,
> ...



Are you suggesting this is not an original thought by Bruce Lee?  I'm gobsmacked.


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## dvcochran (Dec 18, 2020)

Steve said:


> ???  Win one for the Gipper?


Completely different. Knute Rockne was a real coach talking about his star player George Gipp who fell sick.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 19, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Completely different. Knute Rockne was a real coach talking about his star player George Gipp who fell sick.


As opposed to Steve's comment, which was discussing a model of coaching/training, which is used with real people? I'm confused.


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## Steve (Dec 19, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> As opposed to Steve's comment, which was discussing a model of coaching/training, which is used with real people? I'm confused.


it's okay.  The less attention he receives the more he snipes and ankle bites.  I don't think even he believes what he's saying.  Just a chance to be petty. I encourage you to ignore it.


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## dvcochran (Dec 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> As opposed to Steve's comment, which was discussing a model of coaching/training, which is used with real people? I'm confused.



*** Disclaimer*** I have no idea what kind of work you do and do not mean to offend. 

I am spit balling some but it is one of those things you commonly see in marketing where a word used in one context is repurposed to be used in another, dissimilar context. For me sometimes this works, sometimes not. Calling someone a 'coach' in a business environment just does not work for me and kind of reeks of a shyster salesman.

Wordplay has spun into an industry of it's own in the work world, even outside of marketing. In the never ending effort to be 'nice' to people, eliminate structure and hierarchy and create mediocrity, titles have less meaning and are handed out willy-nilly. 
Want to be a shift leader at a retail store? Sure we will call you a Manager, give you more responsibility and pay you the same money. Then people get upset and bash the company when they feel like they are overworked or underpaid when in reality they done a Lot of it to themselves for playing along.

Maybe it is because I have had a lot of real coaches in my sports life. 
This may sound contradictory but I have zero problem following or being under a leader but more often I will have a problem being under a boss. 
I have zero problem addressing my instructor as Master or Grand Master because I know he has earned and deserves it. 
I have zero problem working with a totally green project leader who has the ability to check their ego at the door, admit they are green, and has the wisdom or training to use the resources around them. Even when they are making mistakes. 

Theory never leaves that realm until it is proven in application. The "how to be a winner" motivational speaker doesn't even deserve the title of theory to me. 

The most current example I can think of in the manufacturing/project work is six sigma. It has become a hugely successful marketing product and manufacturing strategy. In essence very old methodology in SPC was put into a format similar to MA belting. There are various color 'belts' up to and beyond black belt to signify one's supposed knowledge/ability. In reality it is like most every other similar program I have seen where is has more to do with the simple process of paying for the program than anything else. It is supposed to require 'time in trade' . But it is so easy to step around this requirement that it invalidates the whole program for me. 

I do agree six sigma works and adds value but it is really the old grey horse painted white analogy. 
That said, it is probably the number one certification out there right now.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> *** Disclaimer*** I have no idea what kind of work you do and do not mean to offend.
> 
> I am spit balling some but it is one of those things you commonly see in marketing where a word used in one context is repurposed to be used in another, dissimilar context. For me sometimes this works, sometimes not. Calling someone a 'coach' in a business environment just does not work for me and kind of reeks of a shyster salesman.
> 
> ...


So, you dislike when a term is used outside the way you think is "real" (you referred to "real coaches"). Coaching is a term that has been in use in business for as long as I can recall. The training approach I learned 30 years ago was based on a derivation of AMT (Analytical Method of Training), and was called coach-based training. That term goes back at least 15 years before I met it. While I don't recall there being a thing called a "business coach" or such, that's a natural progression of usage.

And I'm not sure how any of that even links back to the discussion of stages of task learning, which is anything but purely theoretical. It maps directly to things like AMT, and directly facilitates skill development in a real-world environment.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 20, 2020)

I looked it up, and apparently the first use of coach outside of a carriage coach is from 1849, and at the time was an academic coach. The first use of it for a carriage was from  the 1500s, named after the hungarian village it was invented in. My guess would have been that it came from ancient greek.


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## Steve (Dec 20, 2020)

I really don't get the drama.  Coaches are people who help other people get better at something.  In business, coaching as a skill is the counterpart to telling people what to do.  Just shorthand for when you help someone figure it out themselves and give them tips when needed.    Sometimes you need to tell someone what to do and how to do it, but to rely on that alone is poor management and a sign of an insecure, lazy manager.  A good manager develops his employees.  

That said, some employees aren't coachable.  In simple terms, coachable just means not a know it all, someone who takes feedback well, acts on feedback, and ultimately gets better at their job.  People who react poorly to the idea of coaching are probably not coachable, don't take feedback well, are know it alls, and probably are plateaued skillwise.  Not anyone I'd want on my team.


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## Steve (Dec 20, 2020)

For what it's worth, coaching is a skill. When. J was in the military 30 years ago, we learned about coaching.  At the time, it was framed in terms of putting the monkey where it belongs.  If someone has a problem and tells you about it, you can either take the monkey from him, or you can put it on his back.  If you solve the problem by telling him what to do and how to do it, the monkey is yours.  If you help him figure it out himself, he keeps the monkey.  The former is tell/direct management and the latter is coaching.  Simple as that.  

If you are only comfortable directing, the most you'll ever get is what's in your head, best case scenario.  If you hold people accountable for thinking on their own you will seldom get exactly what's in your head, but often (if you're good at your job) it will be better.


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## dvcochran (Dec 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> So, you dislike when a term is used outside the way you think is "real" (you referred to "real coaches"). Coaching is a term that has been in use in business for as long as I can recall. The training approach I learned 30 years ago was based on a derivation of AMT (Analytical Method of Training), and was called coach-based training. That term goes back at least 15 years before I met it. While I don't recall there being a thing called a "business coach" or such, that's a natural progression of usage.
> 
> And I'm not sure how any of that even links back to the discussion of stages of task learning, which is anything but purely theoretical. It maps directly to things like AMT, and directly facilitates skill development in a real-world environment.



Like I said it is annoying and often misused. I suppose I am just too blue collar? I know the original use of 'coach' went back to the horse and carriage days but I never heard much of it in the manufacturing world until later in my career. 
You are more accurate that it is the "business coach" moniker type that is more annoying to me. 
As far as AMT, hasn't it been around at least since the beginning of modern assembly & manufacturing? But let's use it for example. From a marketing standpoint at least, 'data analytics' is a not that of a old buzz word. It it what our son does. When I try to tell him it has been around for a century or longer just under different names he bucks me. Data mining, machine learning, signal processing, are all phrases that fall under the same banner. They are just not as popular as data analytics right now. 
And to show full respect to AMT, it is a completely different animal from 'business' coaches and some of the other training crap I have seen over the years. The worst thing I see is when people/managers/leaders get so deeply entrenched in a program like six sigma or AMT that they become completely disconnected from the actual (manufacturing) process. Seems to happen more in larger channels.


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## Steve (Dec 20, 2020)

I think this is a situation where @dvcochran doesn't know what he doesn't know.  It's nice that he provided such a clear example in a thread on the topic.


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## dvcochran (Dec 20, 2020)

Steve said:


> I think this is a situation where @dvcochran doesn't know what he doesn't know.  It's nice that he provided such a clear example in a thread on the topic.



I think you know that I know what I know. But as a 'coach' it rubs you the wrong way. 
I freely admit when I don't know. I cannot tell you how many times I have said that to customers. Most of which are very bright engineers with very complex processing/manufacturing challenges. But I am hired to figure things out so staying in a state of unknowing is not an option. 
Convincing people to pay you to state the obvious is rather marketing 101 and rolling back to the sleezy salesman I mentioned earlier. 

My 'example' stands on it's own and yes, it is relative to the topic. 

Do you have something more than a very academic diagram to add to the conversation? Gerry made a very good point with AMT.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 21, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Like I said it is annoying and often misused. I suppose I am just too blue collar? I know the original use of 'coach' went back to the horse and carriage days but I never heard much of it in the manufacturing world until later in my career.
> You are more accurate that it is the "business coach" moniker type that is more annoying to me.
> As far as AMT, hasn't it been around at least since the beginning of modern assembly & manufacturing? But let's use it for example. From a marketing standpoint at least, 'data analytics' is a not that of a old buzz word. It it what our son does. When I try to tell him it has been around for a century or longer just under different names he bucks me. Data mining, machine learning, signal processing, are all phrases that fall under the same banner. They are just not as popular as data analytics right now.
> And to show full respect to AMT, it is a completely different animal from 'business' coaches and some of the other training crap I have seen over the years. The worst thing I see is when people/managers/leaders get so deeply entrenched in a program like six sigma or AMT that they become completely disconnected from the actual (manufacturing) process. Seems to happen more in larger channels.


Business coaching is just another term for consulting. And just as vague. Not "crap". I think we're done here.


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## Steve (Dec 21, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Business coaching is just another term for consulting. And just as vague. Not "crap". I think we're done here.


Seriously, just let him bluster.  When he started talking about six sigma, it's clear that he has a very specific idea in mind and he's just not a very good listener.  He is a perfect example of someone who is not coachable.  Toxic any team he's on, I expect.  Between this and his boasting about being "direct" and other clues he's shared about how he acts at work.   Most of us have worked with guys like this.  Good managers sort them out or get rid of them.  Good luck to the team if he's in charge.  Small, petty, insecure men in positions of power are bad news.

I'll just put him back on ignore.


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## Steve (Dec 21, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Business coaching is just another term for consulting. And just as vague. Not "crap". I think we're done here.


I think part of the problem here is that there are several completely different things here, all being categorized as 'coaching.'  

So, for sake of clarity, when I use the term, it's in the same context in which a football coach uses the term.  Coaching is an essential skill for anyone in management.  When you ask someone to do something and they either don't do it, or they don't do it correctly, what you do next is coaching.  It's how a good manager diagnoses whether someone can't do something or won't do something.  It's also how you take good employees to the next level.  As I said earlier, it's easy to just tell people what to do for a while, but if you're developing your staff, or if you're taking the time to figure out whether a person who is underperforming needs training or a kick in the pants, you're coaching.  

Of course, the devil is in the details.  It's not about buzzwords or anything touchy/feely.  It's a concrete skill used to get employees to perform independently and continue to develop their own expertise.


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## dvcochran (Dec 21, 2020)

Steve said:


> Seriously, just let him bluster.  When he started talking about six sigma, it's clear that he has a very specific idea in mind and he's just not a very good listener.  He is a perfect example of someone who is not coachable.  Toxic any team he's on, I expect.  Between this and his boasting about being "direct" and other clues he's shared about how he acts at work.   Most of us have worked with guys like this.  Good managers sort them out or get rid of them.  Good luck to the team if he's in charge.  Small, petty, insecure men in positions of power are bad news.
> 
> I'll just put him back on ignore.


If you do not like what I say Keeping me on ignore would be best for you.

So, let me ask how many teams (manufacturing or otherwise) have you actually worked on or better yet led? 
What is/was the size of you largest direct report staff?
What were the implications?
What was the financial commitment?
How many jobs have you added in a environment? More critically, how many jobs have you eliminated because of efficiency?
What was your greatest GP and your customers ROI?
What is your knowledge of six sigma, lean manufacturing, value stream mapping, pull system, creating flow?

You are consistently nothing more than someone who likes trying to push other peoples buttons. Especially when you have no real content to offer. I cannot count the times you have pulled this crap with me on this forum.
Why you feel threatened by me I have no idea.


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## dvcochran (Dec 21, 2020)

Steve said:


> I think part of the problem here is that there are several completely different things here, all being categorized as 'coaching.'
> 
> So, for sake of clarity, when I use the term, it's in the same context in which a football coach uses the term.  Coaching is an essential skill for anyone in management.  When you ask someone to do something and they either don't do it, or they don't do it correctly, what you do next is coaching.  It's how a good manager diagnoses whether someone can't do something or won't do something.  It's also how you take good employees to the next level.  As I said earlier, it's easy to just tell people what to do for a while, but if you're developing your staff, or if you're taking the time to figure out whether a person who is underperforming needs training or a kick in the pants, you're coaching.
> 
> Of course, the devil is in the details.  It's not about buzzwords or anything touchy/feely.  It's a concrete skill used to get employees to perform independently and continue to develop their own expertise.



Clearly you have never been coached in a sports environment. Business coaching could not be farther from the same thing. Do you even know who Lane Kiffen is? If people in the typical business environment were talked to the way the average sport coach speaks, they would not stay around very long. 
Having been in the military I would have expected you to know this. 

I fully agree the devil is in the details, with most anytying. But without exception, the best measure of a person/employee/team member, whatever title you choose to use, is in their direct results to whatever their job requirements entail. 
That does Not mean you have to like the person or that it has to be a 'touchy/feely' relationship. Do your job with any amount of maturity and the mutual respect will come to the surface.


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## dvcochran (Dec 21, 2020)




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## Steve (Dec 22, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> If you do not like what I say Keeping me on ignore would be best for you.
> 
> So, let me ask how many teams (manufacturing or otherwise) have you actually worked on or better yet led?
> What is/was the size of you largest direct report staff?
> ...


I don't feel threatened by you.  I feel sorry for you.  I really do.  It's pathetic that you're talking about things I've done to you when these are the first posts by you I've read in weeks.  At some point, you need to accept some responsibility for your own behavior.  You're a toddler throwing a tantrum for attention.  I'm not making you act that way.  You're choosing to do it. 

As I said to @gpseymour, like a toddler, the best way to handle you is to just stop feeding into your temper tantrum.  Your reputation seems to matter a lot to you, so consider the damage you do to your reputation when you act so childishly.


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## dvcochran (Dec 22, 2020)

Steve said:


> I don't feel threatened by you.  I feel sorry for you.  I really do.  It's pathetic that you're talking about things I've done to you when these are the first posts by you I've read in weeks.  At some point, you need to accept some responsibility for your own behavior.  You're a toddler throwing a tantrum for attention.  I'm not making you act that way.  You're choosing to do it.
> 
> As I said to @gpseymour, like a toddler, the best way to handle you is to just stop feeding into your temper tantrum.  Your reputation seems to matter a lot to you, so consider the damage you do to your reputation when you act so childishly.



Just as I expected, I see you conveniently side stepped my initial questions. But in your never ending consistence you again proven your ignorance on a topic that you yourself started. 

I have never stopped working this year. Even when I was home earlier this year after surgery I was working. And neither has my company or any of my employees stopped working this year. Even at great expense to me directly when we had to do non-profit busy work for about 8-9 weeks. But I have a great crew and understand their value. Oh, I forgot I don't take care of my responsibilities. 
You are blindly striking out at something and someone you have absolutely no clue about. Having thought I have ever changed the way I act is just one more pillar of that proof. 

I have zero idea what you are talking about on my posting but I do know just about every time I do at some point you are going to take a jab. So who is the toddler begging for attention?
C'mon man. Grow up.


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## isshinryuronin (Dec 22, 2020)

"He who knows, and wishes he didn't" has probably read the last 7 postings.


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## Steve (Dec 23, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> "He who knows, and wishes he didn't" has probably read the last 7 postings.


And sometimes, those who don't know just aren't going to know.


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