# Reading too much into it?



## granfire (Dec 16, 2012)

I only read one article about the Ct shooter, at this point I do see too many speculations to consider any of them to be of greater value to understand what went on in this man's head.

But one thing has struck me.
The ratio of female to male ratio.
Not so much that it is grossly unbalanced, but the fact that some put emphasis on this.

Are we reading too much into this?
I mean, from what I gathered, he pretty much had planned (I know, speculative) to go from classroom to classroom.
Some classes are just not balanced boy vs girl.

Unless of course the coroner and ME had to see something they don't tell. I mean, it is overkill to shoot a small person three times with a gun of that caliber, 11 times compounds the overkill....

And I have yet to see an elementary school with more than one male teacher, and he is usually princiopal....add a janitor or two, you can't hit male staff if you tried!



Which brings me to a matter that needs to be addressed, but in a different aspect and on it's own merit: do we need more male teachers in elementary schools?
(rethorical question, since it has been asserted for over a decade and more, that especially boys need more positive role models in their lives at this age, especially since single mothers are no rarity anymore)


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## Big Don (Dec 16, 2012)

granfire said:


> I only read one article about the Ct shooter, at this point I do see too many speculations to consider any of them to be of greater value to understand what went on in this man's head.
> 
> But one thing has struck me.
> The ratio of female to male ratio.
> ...



When the media hypes male child molesters and romanticizes Mary Kay Letourneau, do you expect schools to hire men? Do you expect men to want a job where they will always be suspect?


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2012)

Big Don said:


> When the media hypes male child molesters and romanticizes Mary Kay Letourneau, do you expect schools to hire men? Do you expect men to want a job where they will always be suspect?




and you think my country is bad.......


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 16, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> and you think my country is bad.......


Can't we both be bad?


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 16, 2012)

Big Don said:


> When the media hypes male child molesters and romanticizes Mary Kay Letourneau, do you expect schools to hire men? Do you expect men to want a job where they will always be suspect?


Thanks, Don. I thought the same thing, but you typed it for me.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 16, 2012)

i guess were lucky my kids have had several male teachers.  my oldest is in 4th grade her 1st and 3rd grade and gym teachers were men


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> Can't we both be bad?



Only if it's true.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 16, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Only if it's true.


Because thing are so Utopian in England.


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## granfire (Dec 16, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> i guess were lucky my kids have had several male teachers.  my oldest is in 4th grade her 1st and 3rd grade and gym teachers were men


  Oh, Coach...but yeah, Coach is about the only other exception...  But the male/female imbalance in Elementary schools precedes That Chick by many years....decades, really!  While Elementary school is one of the most important parts of education, I don't believe the teachers get nearly the same respect as high school - and likely not the pay....


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> Because thing are so Utopian in England.



No they aren't though we don't seem to live in fear. However if people are going to use the UK as some sort of example of an awful place to live because we don't have guns they ought to get their facts right.


We don't have many male primary school teachers either, the job doesn't attract men, they want the more imortant, they think, jobs in secondary schools where they can teach science and maths, considered the hard subjects as opposed to English, history etc the soft, female subjects. with schools being given budgets by the Tories they can also earn more in secondary schools. 
http://targetjobs.co.uk/career-sect...on/287127-if-youre-a-man-be-a-primary-teacher

_"Why don&#8217;t more men consider becoming primary school teachers? Worries about relating to children of this age group is one reason, yet men who get some first-hand experience in primary schools frequently report being pleased and surprised at how well they were able to communicate with the pupils. If this is one of your concerns, it would be well worthwhile putting your doubts to the test. While the professional status and financial rewards of teaching have undoubtedly risen in recent years, the attitude that primary teaching is not a &#8216;real career&#8217;, especially for men, persists. However, the reality is that opportunities for career development and financial rewards in primary teaching match those in secondary school &#8211; so why not ignore the career chauvinists and find out for yourself?"

_This might be relevant to America as well rather than any fears over being suspects in sexual abuse cases.


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## granfire (Dec 16, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> No they aren't though we don't seem to live in fear. However if people are going to use the UK as some sort of example of an awful place to live because we don't have guns they ought to get their facts right.   We don't have many male primary school teachers either, the job doesn't attract men, they want the more imortant, they think, jobs in secondary schools where they can teach science and maths, considered the hard subjects as opposed to English, history etc the soft, female subjects. with schools being given budgets by the Tories they can also earn more in secondary schools.  http://targetjobs.co.uk/career-sect...on/287127-if-youre-a-man-be-a-primary-teacher _"Why don&#8217;t more men consider becoming primary school teachers? Worries about relating to children of this age group is one reason, yet men who get some first-hand experience in primary schools frequently report being pleased and surprised at how well they were able to communicate with the pupils. If this is one of your concerns, it would be well worthwhile putting your doubts to the test. While the professional status and financial rewards of teaching have undoubtedly risen in recent years, the attitude that primary teaching is not a &#8216;real career&#8217;, especially for men, persists. However, the reality is that opportunities for career development and financial rewards in primary teaching match those in secondary school &#8211; so why not ignore the career chauvinists and find out for yourself?"  _This might be relevant to America as well rather than any fears over being suspects in sexual abuse cases.


  Like I said, I have not seen many men in elementary school and usually they were the principal.... (and the rest, with the pay and prestige as well)


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> No they aren't though we don't seem to live in fear. However if people are going to use the UK as some sort of example of an awful place to live because we don't have guns they ought to get their facts right.
> 
> 
> We don't have many male primary school teachers either, the job doesn't attract men, they want the more imortant, they think, jobs in secondary schools where they can teach science and maths, considered the hard subjects as opposed to English, history etc the soft, female subjects. with schools being given budgets by the Tories they can also earn more in secondary schools.
> ...


I don't remember mentioning guns, but I will be sure to have my facts straight when I do.   On the other hand, England could stand to take a second look at the men attracted to working with children. Its just common sense.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't remember mentioning guns, but I will be sure to have my facts straight when I do.  On the other hand, England could stand to take a second look at the men attracted to working with children. Its just common sense.




Do you mean just England or do you mean the UK? Are you insinuating that male teachers in the UK are peadophiles? 

We have checks here called CRB checks, anyone working with children including martial arts instructors are to have them done. I don't think that our Education Department is lacking in any care towards children where male teachers are concerned. I find it odd that you seem to suggest that men who want to work with children are somehow suspect. Do you have something against male teachers?

The last big criminal case here where children were being sexually abused was in a nursery where a female member of staff was found guilty of sexually molesting the children in her charge.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Do you mean just England or do you mean the UK? Are you insinuating that male teachers in the UK are peadophiles?
> 
> We have checks here called CRB checks, anyone working with children including martial arts instructors are to have them done. I don't think that our Education Department is lacking in any care towards children where male teachers are concerned. I find it odd that you seem to suggest that men who want to work with children are somehow suspect. Do you have something against male teachers?
> 
> The last big criminal case here where children were being sexually abused was in a nursery where a female member of staff was found guilty of sexually molesting the children in her charge.


I am not accusing men of anything, I am saying there are molesters in the mix, and because of that, people will double take a man attracted to children. I applaud those that want to help children, but if a man does get into the business of teaching children, he is being watched, and if you aren't doing anything wrong, its not a problem. 
Sean


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> I am not accusing men of anything, I am saying there are molesters in the mix, and because of that, people will double take a man attracted to children. I applaud those that want to help children, but if a man does get into the business of teaching children, he is being watched, and if you aren't doing anything wrong, its not a problem.
> Sean



Really? Seems you think they are guilty until proved innocent.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 17, 2012)

When I went to primary school back in the late 60's, there seemed to be a fairly even balance between male and female teachers.  We didn't have to worry about evil abusers and molesters either - there were just as many back then but it wasn't the media bogeyman that it is now.  Such things are going to happen no matter how much thoughtless panic criminalises every man who applies for a job involving children - like Don said earlier it's no wonder men don't bother.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> When I went to primary school back in the late 60's, there seemed to be a fairly even balance between male and female teachers. We didn't have to worry about evil abusers and molesters either - there were just as many back then but it wasn't the media bogeyman that it is now.



I was in primary school qutie a bit before you, I started school at four in the late fifties, there weren't as many male teachers around as there was still consciption. We were always aware that we had to watch for the 'funny men' but it wasn't such a witch hunt and there was less suspicion even though there was the knowledge that abusers were out there. Later on there was the Moors Murders, that made parents fear and of course has far reaching consequences even now. 
There is little reason to think that male teachers are there to abuse children, a primary school is quite a tight knit, well controlled environment not conducive to abusers. Even now primary schools here are on the small side compared to the secondary schools. Abusers would most likely look to other places to find children, online seems a favourite and we've had a fair few martial arts instructors imprisoned for sexual abuse against children.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Really? Seems you think they are guilty until proved innocent.


Is that what I think?


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> Is that what I think?



Well you seem to be implying that male teachers are suspect merely for wanting to teach and that people are watching them. That's not been the experience of most I think.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 17, 2012)

I just think teaching little kids is seen as less manly.  Its seen more as a day care then as a teaching.  Its a stigma like people see trash collectors as trash men they see elementary school as a woman's field.  Kinda like people think police work is a male job and only lesbian woman would be cops.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2012)

I think you've hit the nail on the head. As Sukerkin said we had plenty of male teachers when teaching was seen as a good profession.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> There is little reason to think that male teachers are there to abuse children, a primary school is quite a tight knit, well controlled environment not conducive to abusers. Even now primary schools here are on the small side compared to the secondary schools.




:nods:  I was thinking that too - the teaching 'circle' is pretty small at a primary school which makes it far harder for those with evil intent to hide-in-the-herd.


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## arnisador (Dec 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Well you seem to be implying that male teachers are suspect merely for wanting to teach and that people are watching them. That's not been the experience of most I think.



Eh...I'm sorry to say that there's a lot of that over here, yeah--esp. for men teaching elementary school.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I think you've hit the nail on the head. As Sukerkin said we had plenty of male teachers when teaching was seen as a good profession.


Couldn't the fact that it is no longer a normal thing to do be part of the trepidation with male teachers? Anyways, I don't dislike male teachers, nor would I discourage males getting into the profession. I am just saying they face scrutiny for the choice.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2012)

I don't know how it is in the States but when Sukerkin and I went to school teachers were highly regarded professionals who went to teacher training colleges to learn their profession. Now teaching is often the choice out of work graduates make and teaching is just a job, the government messes around with the curriculum and is more worried about whether the school is on a list than the children's education.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know how it is in the States but when Sukerkin and I went to school teachers were highly regarded professionals who went to teacher training colleges to learn their profession. Now teaching is often the choice out of work graduates make and teaching is just a job, the government messes around with the curriculum and is more worried about whether the school is on a list than the children's education.


In the US the teachers make peanuts. It is the lowest paid profession requiring a college degree, and half the population believes they are payed too much. You really have to want to do it.


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## granfire (Dec 17, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> In the US the teachers make peanuts. It is the lowest paid profession requiring a college degree, and half the population believes they are payed too much. You really have to want to do it.




I suppose 30-60k vs what other branches make....it's a living wage though....


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## arnisador (Dec 17, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> In the US the teachers make peanuts. It is the lowest paid profession requiring a college degree, and half the population believes they are payed too much. You really have to want to do it.



...or want the job security. Not a slam--the security and benefits are real and valid considerations. But otherwise, yes.


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