# Can Red Dawn be saved...



## billc

The trailer for Red Dawn is out.  It looks good, nicely Pro-American.  However, can they get past the silliness of North Korea invading the United States?  I tried to find the trailer on youtube, but I had to post it from here...

http://screenrant.com/red-dawn-trailer-2012/


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## billc

Some thoughts on Red Dawn...

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/08/...-prepare-for-the-great-north-korean-invasion/



> Want me to watch a pseudo-realistic war film in which mainland America is invaded by a country that subsists mainly on grass? Nope. Not happening, or at least not without great difficulty. This flick reminds me of the &#8220;uncanny valley&#8221; in robotics: People can cope just fine with robots that are very lifelike or not lifelike at all, but they recoil at robots that are _kind of_ lifelike. This film is _kind of_ lifelike. You could buy it if the invading army hailed from a great power &#8212; the original &#8220;Red Dawn&#8221; worked fine with the Soviets, and this one probably would have flown with China in the villain role &#8212; but these people? As a rule of thumb, if we&#8217;re going to imagine an enemy abroad overwhelming U.S. air defenses and landing tens of thousands of paratroopers, that enemy should be capable of keeping a long-range missile in the air for more than, say, 45 seconds. Basic concessions to reality here, guys &#8212; that&#8217;s all I ask.



The trailer looks good up to the point you realize the bad guys are supposed to be North Koreans...


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## Omar B

Can Red Dawn be saved?  Saved from what?  From you?  You haven't even seen the movie and are crying doom and gloom, no wonder you love those alarmist almost-news web sites.

It's an action movie, and North Korea is no more ridiculous than Russia in the first one.  Gotta kill somebody in an action movie.


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## billc

Yes, North Korea is a serious threat to the United States.  :rofl:


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## Dirty Dog

billcihak said:


> Yes, North Korea is a serious threat to the United States.  :rofl:



Wait... you think the idea of an military invasion of the US is credible, regardless of who the purported invader is?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Omar B

billcihak said:


> Yes, North Korea is a serious threat to the United States. :rofl:



He must have not seen the first one with the Russians.  Or know anything about the layout of the USA.  There will be no war faught on our soil from an outside invader unless they invent teleportation and drop a couple million troops in the middle of the country.  Russia and Korea are both equally ridiculous.  But it's an action movie.


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## Big Don

A better question would be, why in the hell is Hollywood out of original ideas? Two Hulk movies in ten years, a new Spiderman, new Star Trek, new Total Recall, billions of dollars in the entertainment industry and all we get is warmed over crap?!


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## billc

> There will be no war faught on our soil from an outside invader



Thanks Omar, you just jinxed us...


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## Big Don

Big Don said:


> A better question would be, why in the hell is Hollywood out of original ideas? Two Hulk movies in ten years, a new Spiderman, new Star Trek, new Total Recall, billions of dollars in the entertainment industry and all we get is warmed over crap?!



Alf, ALF, GOD DMAN IT!!! Sony (henceforth to be referred to as those idiots) are making an ALF movie


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## Omar B

billcihak said:


> Thanks Omar, you just jinxed us...



Yeah, sure kid.  When you learn a bit about military tactics and what it takes to move any great number of troops you'll understand.

Ever read The Hunt For Red October?  That was the 80's and we noticed 1 Russian sub missing and them massing in their own waters.


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## elder999

Big Don said:


> Alf, ALF, GOD DMAN IT!!! Sony (henceforth to be referred to as those idiots) are making an ALF movie




That could be cool! You do know how the series ended, right?


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## elder999

Omar B said:


> He must have not seen the first one with the Russians. Or know anything about the layout of the USA. There will be no war faught on our soil from an outside invader unless they invent teleportation and drop a couple million troops in the middle of the country. Russia and Korea are both equally ridiculous. But it's an action movie.



There were Japanese troops in Alaska for a whole year during WWII.

You're probably right-until the fall of the Soviet Union, we only had the vaguest of ideas of how much military superiority we actually had,and it turned out to be an awful lot-likewise, we know we have quite an edge on the Chinese- but I wouldn't rule anything out.

North Korea, though? It is to laugh.....:lfao:


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## Takai

billcihak said:


> The trailer for Red Dawn is out.  It looks good, nicely Pro-American.  However, can they get past the silliness of North Korea invading the United States?  I tried to find the trailer on youtube, but I had to post it from here...
> 
> http://screenrant.com/red-dawn-trailer-2012/



You realize when this incarnation was filmed it was actually China that was invading? All of the North Korean imagery was digitally added. It seems China owns a large portion of the production company an was none to pleases about the original film.


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## jks9199

Omar B said:


> Can Red Dawn be saved?  Saved from what?  From you?  You haven't even seen the movie and are crying doom and gloom, no wonder you love those alarmist almost-news web sites.
> 
> It's an action movie, and North Korea is no more ridiculous than Russia in the first one.  Gotta kill somebody in an action movie.



Minor note:  In the mid 80s, the idea of the Soviets and Cuba or other Latin American Communist countries conspiring to invade the US was quite plausible.  Just as it's hard for those of us who didn't live through WWII or The Great Depression to understand some of the things that went on -- or those who didn't really grow up in the pre-9/11 world to get some of it, it's hard to realize how deeply entrenched the Cold War was in our psyche.


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## Blindside

jks9199 said:


> Minor note:  In the mid 80s, the idea of the Soviets and Cuba or other Latin American Communist countries conspiring to invade the US was quite plausible.  Just as it's hard for those of us who didn't live through WWII or The Great Depression to understand some of the things that went on -- or those who didn't really grow up in the pre-9/11 world to get some of it, it's hard to realize how deeply entrenched the Cold War was in our psyche.



I was never concerned with an invasion, I just assumed we were all going to die in a hail of nukes.

What a lovely adolescence.


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## jks9199

Blindside said:


> I was never concerned with an invasion, I just assumed we were all going to die in a hail of nukes.
> 
> What a lovely adolescence.



Yeah, nothing like knowing that, depending on the wind direction, you had a choice of dying immediately, or dying slowly...   And that's without thinking about the Nike missiles firing back and what they might do to the neighborhood.


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## elder999

Blindside said:


> I was never concerned with an invasion, I just assumed we were all going to die in a hail of nukes.
> 
> What a lovely adolescence.



Yeah.





Good lord, the irony of 25 years of my career never ceases to amaze me.


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## granfire

jks9199 said:


> Minor note:  In the mid 80s, the idea of the Soviets and Cuba or other Latin American Communist countries conspiring to invade the US was quite plausible.  Just as it's hard for those of us who didn't live through WWII or The Great Depression to understand some of the things that went on -- or those who didn't really grow up in the pre-9/11 world to get some of it, it's hard to realize how deeply entrenched the Cold War was in our psyche.



well, as Euro Trash, for us the thread was more real - besides being clobbered by 2 sets of nukes....


But seriously...how could you explain a bunch of Russians *suddenly* appear in a Mid Western town without warning?! You know they would have taken a wrong turn in Albuquerque.....


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## billc

Yeah, I know China was the original bad guy in the movie.  At least they could say they have numbers and given time maybe they could get closer to being on par technologically with the U.S.  It looks like they are going with the E.M.P. strike that precedes an invasion, or perhaps it is some hacking program that disables stuff over here.  Still, North Korea is a little to big a reach.


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## Takai

granfire said:


> But seriously...how could you explain a bunch of Russians *suddenly* appear in a Mid Western town without warning?! You know they would have taken a wrong turn in Albuquerque.....



That's what they get for asking a rabbit for directions.


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## Chris Parker

Bill, serious question here. 

Have you ever come across the concept of "suspension of disbelief"? I mean, it's kinda intrinsic to enjoying movies, you know.


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## elder999

jks9199 said:


> Minor note: In the mid 80s, the idea of the Soviets and Cuba or other Latin American Communist countries conspiring to invade the US was quite plausible. Just as it's hard for those of us who didn't live through WWII or The Great Depression to understand some of the things that went on -- or those who didn't really grow up in the pre-9/11 world to get some of it, it's hard to realize how deeply entrenched the Cold War was in our psyche.



Of course, a year after _Red Dawn_ we had this one:




:lol:


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## elder999

Chris Parker said:


> Bill, serious question here.
> 
> Have you ever come across the concept of "suspension of disbelief"? I mean, it's kinda intrinsic to enjoying movies, you know.





> Abnormalities include verbosity, abrupt transitions,* literal interpretations and miscomprehension of nuance*, use of metaphor meaningful only to the speaker, auditory perception deficits, unusually pedantic, formal or idiosyncratic speech, and oddities in loudness, pitch, intonation, prosody, and rhythm.[SUP][/SUP]



.


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## billc

Yes, suspension of disbelief is exactly why North Korea is such a dumb idea.  Yeah, you might believe at some point the Soviets might be able to invade parts of the U.S. or that China might be able to do it, if lots of bad things happened to the U.S. and a lot of good things happened for them.  That allows you to suspend your disbelief that they could invade the U.S. and go on to enjoy the movie.  North Korea in no way could achieve that end and hence, suspension of disbelief becomes more difficult, taking away some of the entertainment value of the movie.  That is one of the jokes in the spoofs of horror movies.  They always seperate, they never turn on the lights and so on are what make those movies function, but you have to suspend your disbelief in the stupidity of the characters actions in the light of a madman or monster picking the characters off, suspension of disbelief in order to enjoy the horror movie.   Much like a fan of the Dark Knight who didn't like it because Bruce Wayne stopped being batman, and then went on to show a comic book image of a monologue by batman saying why he would never quit.  We're talking about a movie about a billionaire who becomes a masked crimefighter, and does so successfully, without dying, that is suspension of disbelief.


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## elder999

billcihak said:


> Yes, suspension of disbelief is exactly why North Korea is such a dumb idea. Yeah, you might believe at some point the Soviets might be able to invade parts of the U.S. or that China might be able to do it, if lots of bad things happened to the U.S. and a lot of good things happened for them. That allows you to suspend your disbelief that they could invade the U.S. and go on to enjoy the movie. North Korea in no way could achieve that end and hence, suspension of disbelief becomes more difficult, taking away some of the entertainment value of the movie. .



How do you know? What do you know of the Korean people's Army's capabilities, or any of the other branches of their armed services? While their navy is laughable, they do have transport aircraft capable of reaching our shores. Couple this with their cyber-warfare ability, their penchant for asymmetrical warfare, their fanatacism, and the possible EMP scenario (in and of itself requiring a suspension of disbelief) and you have North Korea invading a U.S. without much internal command and control-as far, at least, as the scriptwriters and the average American is concerned-those with military or (ahem) _other_ inside knowledge of U.S. preparations for such a scenario might know otherwise.

In fact, the real barrier to such a scenario is North Korea's lack of proper resources, and the management thereof-they might not even have the _food_ for such an invasion, never mind the fuel.

None of which is really the point when it comes to a plot that is chiefly about a resistance force that consists of armed teenaged Americans.


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## Makalakumu

Blindside said:


> I was never concerned with an invasion, I just assumed we were all going to die in a hail of nukes.
> 
> What a lovely adolescence.



LOL!  At least we had Megadeth!


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## Omar B

jks9199 said:


> *Minor note:  In the mid 80s, the idea of the Soviets and Cuba or other Latin American Communist countries conspiring to invade the US was quite plausible.*  Just as it's hard for those of us who didn't live through WWII or The Great Depression to understand some of the things that went on -- or those who didn't really grow up in the pre-9/11 world to get some of it, it's hard to realize how deeply entrenched the Cold War was in our psyche.



Let me tell you about mid-80's in the Caribbean, since it's where I was born and grew up ... since you brought up Cuba.  My father lived in an area named Kemps Hill in Clarendon.  That name came from "Camp Hill" where a secret US facility still is, my cuz and I used to run around in the small caves when we used to go take out my grandparents cows.  There was also the hidden airfield close by once used by the US.  My dad and his buds drag raced there on Sundays.  All this stuff dating back to the days post British independence (50 years as of last week).  Non of this will show on the map.  Kemps Hill is still on the map because people live there, the airfield is marked as apart of the Garvey Maceo High School(a gift from Cuba to Jamaica, along with 4 other high schools of the same design) campus grown wild.  Because the Cubans were not fools, they knew where the Americans were so they built a friggin high school close enough that when active people thought it was apart of the school.  LOL.

In the US most people worried about invasion.  In the islands we had both US and Cuban influences on the same island all at the same time fighting each other very openly.  On our own soil.  Even there in such a small scale we saw that the commies didn't have what it takes.  Red Dawn?  Take the US?  

The idea of invasion so close and OMG it could happen any time is an American fear.  Every English and Spanish speaking Caribbean country lived with it.

The same can be said for most of the Caribbean islands (even Cuba a couple times) and I'm telling you this from someone who had been to all the island (cub scouts on the islands had our camps on different islands every year).


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## Chris Parker

billcihak said:


> Yes, suspension of disbelief is exactly why North Korea is such a dumb idea.  Yeah, you might believe at some point the Soviets might be able to invade parts of the U.S. or that China might be able to do it, if lots of bad things happened to the U.S. and a lot of good things happened for them.  That allows you to suspend your disbelief that they could invade the U.S. and go on to enjoy the movie.  North Korea in no way could achieve that end and hence, suspension of disbelief becomes more difficult, taking away some of the entertainment value of the movie.  That is one of the jokes in the spoofs of horror movies.  They always seperate, they never turn on the lights and so on are what make those movies function, but you have to suspend your disbelief in the stupidity of the characters actions in the light of a madman or monster picking the characters off, suspension of disbelief in order to enjoy the horror movie.   Much like a fan of the Dark Knight who didn't like it because Bruce Wayne stopped being batman, and then went on to show a comic book image of a monologue by batman saying why he would never quit.  We're talking about a movie about a billionaire who becomes a masked crimefighter, and does so successfully, without dying, that is suspension of disbelief.



So that would be a "No", then, yeah?

Bill, suspension of disbelief is not "why North Korea is such a dumb idea", your lack of such an attribute is "why North Korea is such a dumb idea (to you)". Suspension of disbelief is when you take a film (or anything else designed for entertainment purposes, really), and agree to go along with certain precepts in order to enjoy it. In this case, it would be accepting the premise of North Korea as an invasion force, with Batman it's accepting the plausibility of the Bruce Wayne/Batman character, with Star Trek it's an acceptance of the entire universe created, and so on. Needing to find what you consider faults with everything, specifically to the point of trying to insist a particular agenda being present in each and every thing you see.


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## billc

No agenda on this one.  The movie started out with China as the invader, which considering their growing influence, not too much of a stretch.  Then, because of the Chinese market, they switched to tiny North Korea, having to redo all the insignia on Uniforms and vehicles after finishing the film.   North Korea is not as plausible an invader as China could be, in this fantasy movie.  Soooo, agreeing to go along with the premise is more difficult because of the task of suspending one's disbelief in the military capabilities of a future North Korea.     Now, North Korea as part of the invasion force, sure, much like the "sympathetic" communist murderer in the original Red Dawn was from Cuba, fighting for the soviets.  All by itself, it makes suspension of disbelief more difficult.

Here you go Chris...


> *Main Entry: *
> suspension of disbelief *Part of Speech: * _phr _*Definition: * a willingness to suspend one's critical faculties and believe the unbelievable; sacrifice of realism and logic for the sake of enjoyment


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suspension+of+disbelief

And here some more from wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief



> Not all authors believe that suspension of the disbelief adequately  characterizes the audience's relationship to imaginative works of art. J. R. R. Tolkien challenges this concept in his essay "On Fairy-Stories", choosing instead the paradigm of secondary belief based on inner consistency of reality.  Tolkien says that, in order for the narrative to work, the reader must  believe that what he reads is true within the secondary reality of the  fictional world. By focusing on creating an internally consistent  fictional world, the author makes secondary belief possible. Tolkien  argues that suspension of disbelief is only necessary when the work has  failed to create secondary belief. From that point the spell is broken,  and the reader ceases to be immersed in the story and must make a  conscious effort to suspend disbelief or else give up on it entirely.


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## Chris Parker

Oh, Bill, I'm more than aware of what suspension of disbelief is... it's just that you really seem to be unable to grasp the concept, or at least unwilling to. It's a movie, Bill, where the US is saved by teens with high-powered guns... how about you watch it, then say if you enjoyed it or not? At this point it looks like you're just looking for reasons to complain about another Hollywood movie.


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## granfire

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, Bill, I'm more than aware of what suspension of disbelief is... it's just that you really seem to be unable to grasp the concept, or at least unwilling to. It's a movie, Bill, where the US is saved by teens with high-powered guns... how about you watch it, then say if you enjoyed it or not? At this point it looks like you're just looking for reasons to complain about another Hollywood movie.



He probably has an easier time with the Power Rangers.


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## Omar B

Squirrel meat makes you not able to suspend disbelief.  

Just a movie.  A movie non of us have seen but someone already gave a bad review.  

I don't know, maybe living through the cold war in a region where the powers were fighting their proxy wars and playing their spy games makes me see how totally crazy the idea is.  Guess you had to have been there.


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## elder999

billi? The reason the villains were _mostly_ changed to North Koreans (the Chinese aren't completely out of it; it's some sort of coalition, which probably will make it easier to suspend disbelief) probably had more to do with MGM filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, and getting reorganized with *Chinese* financing. Of course, the nearly $1.5 billion potential CHinese box-office might have had something to do with it, but I don't think they're going to go see it much in CHina, anyway, do you? :lfao:



Omar B said:


> Squirrel meat makes you not able to suspend disbelief.





Omar B said:


> Squirrel meat makes you not able to suspend disbelief.
> .



?????? :lfao:

Squirrel is pretty damn tasty-between the ages of 11 and 14, I killed and cooked a whole lot of them, and had no problems suspending disbelief, sitting in the dark of a movie theater.  11-that was the year of _Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, The French Connection, Fiddler on the Roof_, and _Shaft_. _Cabaret, Klute,_ and a real favorite, _ The Abominable Dr. Phibes  The Beguiled, Bananas, The Andromeda Strain, and *The Big Boss.*_

Nope. No problems suspending disbelief for any of those, except maybe the _French Connection,_-it was supposed to be based on fact, but even then I was suspicious of movie smuggling.......in a car, really? :lfao:


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## Omar B

LOL.


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## billc

I believe those are chipmunks, not squirrels.  They are completely believable in their ability to send jabs of pain down the spinal cord of anyone over 6 years of age.


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## elder999

billcihak said:


> I believe those are chipmunks, not squirrels. They are completely believable in their ability to send jabs of pain down the spinal cord of anyone over 6 years of age.




Oh no, billi-that's a further sign of your confusion. Those aren't jabs of pain, they're shivers of pleasure. Uncontrollable laughter for going on 50 years now.

Some people just have no appreciation for the classics.:lfao:

(Yer right, though-a chipmunk is barely a snack for a red-tailed hawk, never mind a starving man....:lfao: )

Christmas in August:





:lfao: :lfao: :lfao: :lfao:


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