# Anyone To-Shin Do?



## lalom (Jul 7, 2006)

Hello all,

Just wondering if this section of MT is still needed.  Is anyone alive out there?  

Are there any To-Shin Do practitioners here anymore?


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## Tengu6 (Jul 7, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> Just wondering if this section of MT is still needed. Is anyone alive out there?
> 
> Are there any To-Shin Do practitioners here anymore?


 

They have all gone to the Island!

Markk Bush


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Jul 8, 2006)

I doubt it. While there may be a few lurking, they aren't using the area. Since Hayes stuff isn't Japanese Ninjutsu, it might be best to move it out of the JMA area, or just dump it all into the General arts forum.  Why waste the spot when it's not appreciated or used?


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## Don Roley (Jul 10, 2006)

From what I have heard, the presence of Toshindo practicioners on the internet is fading fast. I am in contact with someone who wants to jump from Toshindo to Bujinkan after the whole mess a few months ago and he seems to be far from the only one.

One thing that disturbs me is a story that there is an informal movement inside Toshindo from the top to urge students to not get involved in internet forums. The reason given seems to be something about all the nasty stories floating around involving Hayes.

I have yet to confirm this with multiple sources, but it would explain why there seems to be less and less Toshindo people posting.


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## ginshun (Jul 10, 2006)

We are not a To Shin Do school, but might be someday.  My instructor is thinking about it, and will be going to Ohio to train with Hayes in the near future.


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## lalom (Jul 11, 2006)

ginshun said:
			
		

> We are not a To Shin Do school, but might be someday. My instructor is thinking about it, and will be going to Ohio to train with Hayes in the near future.


 
What art does your school train in currently?  Can I ask?


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## ginshun (Jul 11, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> What art does your school train in currently?  Can I ask?



Taijutsu with a few other things thrown in.  Not affiliated with any national or international organization at the moment, and my never be. Lineage goes back to Bussey and Hayes.  More Bussey, so I don't know how people around here would view it. We are a small school (normally about 5 people at any given class), and my instructor does not teach martial arts as his main job.


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## stone_dragone (Jul 11, 2006)

Not currently Toshindo either, but I have been researching it as a possible future student (depending on location). Right now I teach karate and am approaching a crossroads regarding my teacher/student relation ship with my own instructors.  Just another possibility for me...


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## lalom (Jul 12, 2006)

stone_dragone said:
			
		

> Not currently Toshindo either, but I have been researching it as a possible future student (depending on location). Right now I teach karate and am approaching a crossroads regarding my teacher/student relation ship with my own instructors. Just another possibility for me...


 
Any website I might look at for your dojo?


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## stone_dragone (Jul 12, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> Any website I might look at for your dojo?


 
Sorry.  No website.  Most I have is a digital copy of my manual that is currently in revision.  

I don't want my previous statement to be confused, btw...I still have a great relationship with my instructors, but I only see my primary teacher (whose opinion I value the highest) twice a year at the most.  Just thought I'd clear that up...it looked suspect to me...


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## r erman (Jul 13, 2006)

I can only ever recall two To Shin Do people actively participating in discussion on the internet.  One is Gary Arthur--who is relatively new to TSD and still seems to be going through a zealot phase--who continues to post, not realizing(or caring) about the 'PR' damage he does to his organization and teacher.  

The other is(was) Michael Stinson who runs the Phoenix Quest center.  He was a very impartial moderator at E-Budo for quite a while, and while he did, understandably, defend or curb defamatory posts against SKH(as have I), I can never remember him shoving his organization down others' throats or having an agenda other than discussion about taijutsu.  He was often one of only a small handfull people that I considered voices of reason on e-budo.  He hasn't posted in a couple of years, I assume, due to the increasing negativity towards Mr Hayes.

It seems to me the only other "TSD" people were distant-learning folks who really had little to offer in terms of discussion.

I can only respect people who have better things to do with their time than participate in negative discussions(as Takamatsu said: 'Gossips are purposeless men').  Honest discussion that impacts people's day to day lives doesn't fall under this, however.  But I have a hard time believing that there is some concerted effort to keep To Shin Do students from what others are saying.  Hayes has had a good policy of deflecting this stuff for years by simply ignoring it and giving the appearance of it being beneath him.  However, much of the common debate about SKH has been discussed on quest-l before, where they had a pretty open memebership policy, as I recall.


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## Don Roley (Jul 14, 2006)

r erman said:
			
		

> One is Gary Arthur--who is relatively new to TSD and still seems to be going through a zealot phase--who continues to post, not realizing(or caring) about the 'PR' damage he does to his organization and teacher.



Do you think someone should tell SKH? I'm serious. Gary Arthur was banned here after it was found he was posting under an account name of Gina Jordan. He just recently got banned from e-budo for getting everyone and the Genbukan mad at him for using terms like 'cults' when discussing the two orginizations. I think it will not be long before I see him on another forum posting again.

If I had a student portraying himself as a representative of me, I would like to know this type of thing. I know I have felt like slapping a few Bujinkan members that seem to want to bait the Genbukan or Jinenkan but I can't do anything about them. Hayes should be in a position to talk to those teaching in his name and let them know the damage they are doing.

But it would sound better if it came form someone like you who has never been on the other side of a debate with him. Every time it looks like there is a flame war invovling Toshindo, you can pretty much expect to find Gary Arthur there holding a match. I think Hayes should know this type of thing.


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## lalom (Jul 14, 2006)

I don't think it matters as much as you hope it does.  Mr. Roley, do you REALLY care that much about Mr. Hayes and his organization to warrant your post?


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## saru1968 (Jul 14, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Do you think someone should tell SKH? I'm serious. Gary Arthur was banned here after it was found he was posting under an account name of Gina Jordan. He just recently got banned from e-budo for getting everyone and the Genbukan mad at him for using terms like 'cults' when discussing the two orginizations. I think it will not be long before I see him on another forum posting again.
> 
> If I had a student portraying himself as a representative of me, I would like to know this type of thing. I know I have felt like slapping a few Bujinkan members that seem to want to bait the Genbukan or Jinenkan but I can't do anything about them. Hayes should be in a position to talk to those teaching in his name and let them know the damage they are doing.
> 
> But it would sound better if it came form someone like you who has never been on the other side of a debate with him. Every time it looks like there is a flame war invovling Toshindo, you can pretty much expect to find Gary Arthur there holding a match. I think Hayes should know this type of thing.


 

You should see Gary's (Garths) posts over at MAP !


'However, much of the common debate about SKH has been discussed on quest-l before, where they had a pretty open memebership policy, as I recall.'


Err sorry, no i don't agree with that, any posts that in any way offer a less than positive light are not posted as the post are 'moderated' first.

I've challenged a few points over there and guess what in 19 post not one has made it onto the forum.

And none of my post were abusive, rude or otherwise just presented another point of view, have only one positive side is just not healthy.


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## r erman (Jul 14, 2006)

saru1968 said:
			
		

> You should see Gary's (Garths) posts over at MAP !



Yes, Gary is still very much active on that board...



> Err sorry, no i don't agree with that, any posts that in any way offer a less than positive light are not posted as the post are 'moderated' first.
> 
> I've challenged a few points over there and guess what in 19 post not one has made it onto the forum.
> 
> And none of my post were abusive, rude or otherwise just presented another point of view, have only one positive side is just not healthy.



Well, I have no reason to doubt you, but that is pretty hard to cross-check

What I do remember is that there were posts ranging from Jeff Mueller to Ralph Severe...neither of whom has anything to do with To Shin Do.

As far as notifying SKH, I've given it thought, but I don't feel that it would do any good.  I simply don't believe that anyone from Dayton would take the time to sift through multiple forums to find Garth's posts.  I also don't feel comfortable assuming the role of 'hall monitor'.  

What is unfortunate is that many of the agenda trolls that have a beef with Hayes(and yes there are a lot of people--especially on MAP--that delight in attacking him just to get Gary's goad it sometimes seems) look to his silence as affirmation that he supports Gary's antics, when in reality I think if Hayes wanted an online 'mouthpiece' he would find someone much better suited to the task--someone who is very persuasive, not someone who comes off as little more than sycophant.

Now I've bent my personal rules about staying out of these kinds of discussions quite enough over the past two days--back to lurking in the cyber shadows.


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## MrFunnieman (Jul 14, 2006)

As a former practitioner and instructor I have felt compelled to "defend" Mr. Hayes and the To-Shin Do association, but lately I have lost heart.  I haven't trained or seen anyone from Dayton in four years so really I am out of the loop and content to stay there.  The way Hayes is handling the "latest internet rumors" totally disgusts me.  I am not surprised, but if there was an iota of respect in my heart for him it has been swept away.

Really I think the Ninjutsu forum has been hard on the TSD people.  For one reason or another.  Personally I don't have anything to add to the discussions one way or another.  This thread has been hard on Gary Arthur, but he has written many posts that I whole heartedly agreed with and refrained from posting myself because I thought what he wrote was fair and well written.  I guess it depends on which side if the fence you stand.   After being a quiet observer for the past couple years I have come to respect some Bujinkan people because of their sincerity and knowledge, but that doen't mean I haven't disagreed with them also!  

Really I have been turned off to Ninjutsu in all its forms.  I know that my motivations for training have changed and I no longer yearn to wear black pjs and sneak around.  I think my interest in ninjutsu was rooted in adolescent fantasy and now that I am a big boy there are other arts that appeal to my whole wheat side.  To be fair, I don't know much about the Genbukan or Jinenkan.  I have perused their main sites, but that about the extent of it.  I am sure they have their strong and weak points too.

I am sorry to be down on everyone, you can thank Mr. Hayes and this forum for that.  Please take this post with a grain of salt.  I don't mean anything personally, just to say I personally have had a change of heart, but continue to lurk hoping for another interesting post.


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## Don Roley (Jul 15, 2006)

r erman said:
			
		

> What is unfortunate is that many of the agenda trolls that have a beef with Hayes(and yes there are a lot of people--especially on MAP--that delight in attacking him just to get Gary's goad it sometimes seems)



If his behavior over there is anything like it was here, I would suspect Gary Arthur is to blame for a lot or the trouble. Remember, he got banned here and at e-budo. There is a difference between saying, "we train in a realstic fashion in Toshindo" and "_In contrast to what the Bujinkan does_ we train in a realistic fashion in Toshindo."

If you don't believe me, see some of the threads he started.

I think we need more people like you out there mending fences between the two arts and less people like him. If you do not like the impression that he leaves of Toshindo practicioners, you should get more active and provide a contrast. Start posting here for a start with some positive stuff.

And yes, I am serious about someone contacting Hayes and letting him know what is going on. I do think that when someone gets banned for using multiple accounts on a message board that the people he is representing should be told. I think that if Hayes let it be known that he did not want Gary starting trouble there would be a lot less headaches for some of us on the internet. I do not see how anyone outside of the Koga ryu guys really gains by the troubles between Toshindo and Bujinkan.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 25, 2006)

New message on George Ohashi's webpage posted, for those who haven't seen it yet...


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## ginshun (Jul 27, 2006)

If I had to guess, I would say that it is very highly doubtful that Stephen Hayes pays much mind to what is said about him on internet webboards or the internet in general for that matter.  I think he is probably relevely aware of most things that are said, but I doubt he really cares one way or the other.

Does Hatsumi care what is said about him and the Buj on bullshido.net?  Doubtful.

and Nim, what is George's site?


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## saru1968 (Jul 28, 2006)

ginshun said:
			
		

> and Nim, what is George's site?


 



...its a secret....


irate4:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 28, 2006)

And besides it's of no interest for people who don't study anything Japanese.


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## ginshun (Jul 28, 2006)

**** you guys very much.

Sorry for attempting to steel your ninja secrets.

reading the minds of others to know what interests them or not must be some high level technique that I haven't learned yet.


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## Bigshadow (Jul 28, 2006)

_Mod. Note._ 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-David Russ
-MT Moderator-


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 28, 2006)

I was being serious. It isn't of any interest to those who don't study anything Japanese.


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## shesulsa (Jul 28, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I was being serious. It isn't of any interest to those who don't study anything Japanese.


Why wouldn't it be?  I'm interested.  There are people who open the dojo door to glean the awareness of styles outside there own.  

Nevermind, I'll google it. irateboo


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 28, 2006)

By popular demand, here's the link already...

http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/bujinkan/

"July 24th: 
I know there are a lot of people who complain about Soke's blurry messages on things.  *But please note that it is an important part of YOUR training to try to understand what he means.  You are studying something Japanese here whether you like it or not."*


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## shesulsa (Jul 29, 2006)

Thanks for that.  It was interesting to compare notes on our protocol and how it compares to that listed on the site you linked.  I appreciate that.


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## martialartsstacy (Aug 14, 2006)

yes there are still to-shin-do practitioners out here, like me!


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## bydand (Aug 14, 2006)

martialartsstacy said:
			
		

> yes there are still to-shin-do practitioners out here, like me!



Hi welcome aboard!  Take time to post a introduction in the meet & greet area.  Grab a cup of coffee, glass of Soda, or cold one and sort through the threads here, there are tons of great discussions and some very nice people.  What area are you from?


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## martialartsstacy (Aug 18, 2006)

I'm from NC, I train at Carolina Bujindo Martial Arts. http://www.carolinabujindo.com


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## cloud (Aug 19, 2006)

ginshun said:
			
		

> If I had to guess, I would say that it is very highly doubtful that Stephen Hayes pays much mind to what is said about him on internet webboards or the internet in general for that matter.  I think he is probably relevely aware of most things that are said, but I doubt he really cares one way or the other.
> 
> Does Hatsumi care what is said about him and the Buj on bullshido.net?  Doubtful.
> 
> and Nim, what is George's site?



Great post ginshun. I am at least one person who practice Toshindo and would for as long as I can or it is still the way it is. 

I have no desire to argue over which style is better or anything but personally I do not see how someone as far as down the road as Stephen K. Hayes would care about such thing. And perhaps his students who learn from him over the years start dropping out of "Let's defend Master Hayes" thing simply because they have become more enlighten and were able to detach themselve from these weak distraction to enrich more personal gain of life. They might even view it as a good filtering mechanism to prevent people with undesired energy. As for those that are right and meant to be, they will seek Toshindo out.

P.S. I happen to know a Bujinkan group where the instructor receive 14th Dan in 10 yrs, and in the past three years have move from 5th to 14th Dan. Is he real? I don't know. But I have heard of numurous more similar cases. But is this intentional upon Grandmaster Hatsumi so that NOT everyone get the real thing and those PERSEVERE enough regardless of all factors get the real training? And if this is Hatsumi intention, may be this is also Master Hayes intention to keep the bad seed out of his djo too. And if you want the website for the above Bujinkan group, I will be happy to provide it offline. A ninja would do such thing than setting himself up obvious enough for his opponent.

Just a thought, hope I do not offend anyone
Cloud


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## Arachne (Jan 28, 2007)

start dropping out of "Let's defend Master Hayes" thing simply because they have become more enlighten and were able to detach themselve from these weak distraction to *enrich more personal gain of life*. 
very well said, whats the point in wasting time!

Great post


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## saru1968 (Jan 28, 2007)

Arachne said:


> start dropping out of "Let's defend Master Hayes" thing simply because they have become more enlighten and were able to detach themselve from these weak distraction to *enrich more personal gain of life*.
> very well said, whats the point in wasting time!
> 
> Great post


 

Well one could start down the road to enlightenment by not bumping months old threads and raising a dead horse...


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## bydand (Jan 28, 2007)

saru1968 said:


> Well one could start down the road to enlightenment by not bumping months old threads and raising a dead horse...



Agree 100%


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## SKB (Jan 28, 2007)

OK I study To-Shin Do. I just found out about this site a little while ago. I train out here in Cali. If folks want to discuss training and good ideas or good way of helping understand something Im up for the talk.


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## Arachne (Jan 29, 2007)

Saru : How can something be dead if it still exists?
         The wisdom of what cloud wrote is very much alive for me. 
         Just because there are a few cob webs and this thread is old, spiders like that sort of thing 



SKB. It would be great to talk to you about this art and exchange views, lessons, from what we learn. My email is on my msn space below - also sent to your private box.

I have also begun training with Toshindo. Only once a week. But in time maybe twice. In the future I hope to learn much about Ninjutsu as a whole. I've been interested in Ninja's since I was 5 year's old. 

What have you learned so far? 
I love the idea of the four elements, infact, this sort of coincides with my own astrological study.
I think it will take a few year's before I can start using the elements in Toshindo though


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## SKB (Jan 30, 2007)

I have been training for a few years now. I find the element 'idea' gets easier to understand the more you train. At first the whole thing made little sense to me also. Now I find myself using it when interacting with people.


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## saru1968 (Jan 30, 2007)

Arachne said:


> I love the idea of the four elements, infact, this sort of coincides with my own astrological study.
> I think it will take a few year's before I can start using the elements in Toshindo though


 
As long as you remember that SKH 'elements' have nothing to do with 'Ninjutsu' or the Godai, so if you don't label it as such it will be less confusing.

I spent four years infusing the elements into my training only to have a wake up call when i found out its true source. If it works for you then cool but realise its roots.


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## lalom (Jan 30, 2007)

I find your comment about not being able to use the elements in To-Shin Do a bit contrary to what most have felt.  For me, from the very first training session, I felt that I walked away being able to incorporate and use what was taught.  Interesting.


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## SKB (Jan 30, 2007)

Maybe I am to new to this? What is Ninjutsu and what is not? When firearms were introduced to Japan did the people way back when say "That is not Ninjutsu put the gun down?" 

If using the 'element approach' fits in my head and I learn easier using this method then I guess this is the method I will study. If you learn better using another method then good for you!

If you could help me out a bit, since you seem to have been doing this longer then me, could you give us all the list of what is Ninjutsu and what is not? This would really help a lot of us!!!


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## lalom (Jan 30, 2007)

SKB said:


> Maybe I am to new to this? What is Ninjutsu and what is not? When firearms were introduced to Japan did the people way back when say "That is not Ninjutsu put the gun down?"
> 
> If using the 'element approach' fits in my head and I learn easier using this method then I guess this is the method I will study. If you learn better using another method then good for you!
> 
> If you could help me out a bit, since you seem to have been doing this longer then me, could you give us all the list of what is Ninjutsu and what is not? This would really help a lot of us!!!


 
SKB,

There is no point to your request of Saru1968.  You are not going to get the answer you want to hear.  Better to simply keep training in what you have found to be the best method of learning for you.  That's all that really matters anyhow.


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## SKB (Jan 30, 2007)

lalom,

I know the question can not be answered in any way which would work for everyone on here! People would fight over everything on the list. That was the point. You really can not label the 'art'. 

SOOOOOOOO if in the end we each train in what is suited to the person, what is point of arguing over it? If we are all heading in the same direction should we not be trying to help each other get to the same point? Instead of telling some folks they are not even on the path?

By the way, I find this forum discussion interesting.


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## lalom (Jan 30, 2007)

SKB said:


> lalom,
> 
> I know the question can not be answered in any way which would work for everyone on here! People would fight over everything on the list. That was the point. You really can not label the 'art'.
> 
> ...


 
In everything you do in life, including training in To-Shin do, we'll have those that disagree with our intent and/or methodology.  That is there perogative.  I agree with you in that we should all be trying to help each other get to the same destination.  However, that is lofty to think that to be realistic if those others don't feel the same way.  I guess my point is that spending energy trying to convince the world of what we consider legitimate or even the same as theirs, whatever theirs might be, is futile and no progress will be made.  Instead, use that energy to find cohesion with others of like precious faith, and move forward with synergy.

I wish there was a way to keep those naysayers out of this forum, but then that too, is lofty.  Best just to keep training!


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## bydand (Jan 30, 2007)

SKB said:


> lalom,
> 
> I know the question can not be answered in any way which would work for everyone on here! People would fight over everything on the list. That was the point. You really can not label the 'art'.
> 
> ...





lalom said:


> In everything you do in life, including training in To-Shin do, we'll have those that disagree with our intent and/or methodology.  That is there perogative.  I agree with you in that we should all be trying to help each other get to the same destination.  However, that is lofty to think that to be realistic if those others don't feel the same way.  I guess my point is that spending energy trying to convince the world of what we consider legitimate or even the same as theirs, whatever theirs might be, is futile and no progress will be made.  Instead, use that energy to find cohesion with others of like precious faith, and move forward with synergy.
> 
> I wish there was a way to keep those naysayers out of this forum, but then that too, is lofty.  Best just to keep training!




I look at this issue a bit differently.  I started Bujinkan and when SKH began the Quest Centers and To-Shin Do the school I trained in stayed with him and made the switch.  I trusted and liked my Instructors so I stayed with the school and them.  At first there was zero change, but after taking a break for a bit (Family and kids) when I came back to training, there are some minor differences.  As this is just a couple of schools I am aware of their training practice right now, and they are linked quite closely I cannot tell you if these changes are To-Shin Do wide or if it is training methods the head Instructor picked up on his training trips to Japan.  If you mean the final destination is Self-Defense then yes I'll totally agree that we are all headed for the same destination.  As for being on the same path, no we are not.  Bujinkan travels a slightly different path than To-Shin Do does.  Does it make either of the groups "wrong"?  Not really, just slightly different.  It is like a freeway system coming into a major city, not everybody comes from the same freeway (thank you God!) to get to the same place.  Freeways branch off each other and while traveling the same direction, take a different route.  Same as Ninjutsu has done over the years from what I can gather.  Forgive me in advance as I am going to kill the spelling of these names.  Manaka, Tanamura, and SKH were all students of Hatsumi Soke.  Hatsumi, I would look at as the main road with the other men being alternate routes.  Is one "better" than the others?  For their students, yes.  In the grand scheme of life? probably too close to call a clear "best of show."  To compound this, each "route" has schools that are not *exactly* equal to each other.  Are *all* Bujinkan schools exactly the same? No.  Are *all* Jinekan schools exactly the same, no again.  What about Genbukan schools? Nope.  And I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that all To-Shin Do schools are not the same, they were not the same when they switched to SKH's Quest Center.  I did travel a bit a visited some of the schools back when the change was taking place and found a big difference between schools.  All of this is due to the different Instructors and the interaction of the students within the school.

We are not going down the exact same path, similer but not the same.  For one to try and convince the others we are the same is not even realistic.  Find what works the best for you and is YOUR best path and follow it. That is what I did, and that is what every MA's who has been around a bit has done.  Will you agree with me?  Probably not, but that is OK too.  I'm not going to try to change peoples minds, kind of hard to do over a forum, shoot it is hard to do in person .


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## saru1968 (Jan 30, 2007)

lalom said:


> In everything you do in life, including training in To-Shin do, we'll have those that disagree with our intent and/or methodology.


 


NO, your missing the point.

Anyone is free to train how they wish in what ever org they are in.

My point was simple, clarification. The SKH Godai 'Elements' was something he 'created' not something that was taught to him by Hatsumi Sensei.

So as a teaching/understanding tool, not a problem but just be aware of where it came from and where it did not.

Its part of Toshindo but never been a part of Ninjutsu/Bujinkan

No need to get bent out of shape about it, alot of misconceptions over the years, same as the ninja-to.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 30, 2007)

bydand said:


> I look at this issue a bit differently. I started Bujinkan and when SKH began the Quest Centers and To-Shin Do the school I trained in stayed with him and made the switch. I trusted and liked my Instructors so I stayed with the school and them. At first there was zero change, but after taking a break for a bit (Family and kids) when I came back to training, there are some minor differences. As this is just a couple of schools I am aware of their training practice right now, and they are linked quite closely I cannot tell you if these changes are To-Shin Do wide or if it is training methods the head Instructor picked up on his training trips to Japan. If you mean the final destination is Self-Defense then yes I'll totally agree that we are all headed for the same destination. As for being on the same path, no we are not. Bujinkan travels a slightly different path than To-Shin Do does. Does it make either of the groups "wrong"? Not really, just slightly different. It is like a freeway system coming into a major city, not everybody comes from the same freeway (thank you God!) to get to the same place. Freeways branch off each other and while traveling the same direction, take a different route. Same as Ninjutsu has done over the years from what I can gather. Forgive me in advance as I am going to kill the spelling of these names. Manaka, Tanamura, and SKH were all students of Hatsumi Soke. Hatsumi, I would look at as the main road with the other men being alternate routes. Is one "better" than the others? For their students, yes. In the grand scheme of life? probably too close to call a clear "best of show." To compound this, each "route" has schools that are not *exactly* equal to each other. Are *all* Bujinkan schools exactly the same? No. Are *all* Jinekan schools exactly the same, no again. What about Genbukan schools? Nope. And I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that all To-Shin Do schools are not the same, they were not the same when they switched to SKH's Quest Center. I did travel a bit a visited some of the schools back when the change was taking place and found a big difference between schools. All of this is due to the different Instructors and the interaction of the students within the school.
> 
> We are not going down the exact same path, similer but not the same. For one to try and convince the others we are the same is not even realistic. Find what works the best for you and is YOUR best path and follow it. That is what I did, and that is what every MA's who has been around a bit has done. Will you agree with me? Probably not, but that is OK too. I'm not going to try to change peoples minds, kind of hard to do over a forum, shoot it is hard to do in person .


 

Nice post Scott! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Different paths that may lead to a great final destination if you train hard and learn the right lessons.


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## bydand (Jan 30, 2007)

saru1968 said:


> NO, your missing the point.
> 
> Anyone is free to train how they wish in what ever org they are in.
> 
> ...



Agree 100%  

Teaching tool, or learning tool it does the job of helping people remember the basic movement by linking them to different things everybody can relate to.


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## bydand (Jan 30, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Nice post Scott!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK, you said the same thing in one line it took me a small novel to say.  I may have to work on streamlining my posts.


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## lalom (Jan 30, 2007)

bydand said:


> Agree 100%
> 
> Teaching tool, or learning tool it does the job of helping people remember the basic movement by linking them to different things everybody can relate to.


 
Yes.  The godai is a teaching tool that SKH uses to share the principles.  Not that he created the godai.  Just that he uses it as a skeleton to teach what he learned from Hatsumi Soke.


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## saru1968 (Jan 31, 2007)

lalom said:


> Yes. The godai is a teaching tool that SKH uses to share the principles. Not that he created the godai. Just that he uses it as a skeleton to teach what he learned from Hatsumi Soke.


 

SKH did create the elemental approach of the 'Godai' ie the breathing and the mindset of it for a western audience.


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## lalom (Jan 31, 2007)

The godai (elements) concept have existed long before SKH.  Sorry.  SKH has only used them to teach his interpretation of that Takamatsuden arts.  He has associated certain aspects of training to these elements.  The elements even exist in the Bujinkan art.  Just not used as a teaching tool in any way similar to what To-Shin Do does.  Of course, unless, you Bujinkan schools are using the Kasumi-An Bujinkan curriculum.


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## saru1968 (Jan 31, 2007)

lalom said:


> . Just not used as a teaching tool in any way similar to what To-Shin Do does. Of course, unless, you Bujinkan schools are using the Kasumi-An Bujinkan curriculum.


 

Actually i do know of two Bujinkan Dojos in the Uk that use the SKH elemental approach.

But the Godai 'breathing' and 'elements' mindset as presented by SKH is his creation and NEVER was Bujinkan material.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27322&page=2

As for the godai, the godai _as presented and taught by Hayes_ is not the way it has ever been in Japan. Just because there is _sui no kata_ does not mean that there is a 'Water style technique.'


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27322&page=4

Again, the stuff that you are talking about, 'wind techniques', Mikkyo religious exercises, etc _never existed_ in the training in Japan. They were added by Hayes to the stuff he does. I know this because I listen to my teachers here in Japan and can't find any reference to them doing "fire stances" and the like in any Japanese source.


Boil it down and you see that Hayes is saying that despite the fact that the Japanese wanted the art taught in a certain way, Hayes decided that he had too much invested in his own way of teaching to listen much. There was no Go-dai as he taught it being taught in Japan, and rather than drop it- he continued it.

So you can see that from a very early time, Hayes had decided to go his own way rather than try to follow the way things were done in Japan as closely as possible.
__________________
Don Roley


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27322&page=5

You are correct Don. In all the years I have been here Sensei has never talked about the feelings of Earth, Wind, and what ever. That is part of Mikkyo training though. Once when asked about this Sensei said "If you want to study that go to a Mikkyo priest and study that. I teach Budo." The only feeling that Sensei talks about with us is the Kukan. Kukan losely translated is Void, but that is not acurate either. We have been trying for years to translate that properly.


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## lalom (Jan 31, 2007)

Okay.  I guess we're both saying the same thing.  My point is that the godai has existed prior to SKH.  He merely adapted it to transfer the principles of his taijutsu.  He didn't create the godai.  He created the teaching model of taijutsu that uses the godai elements.  Don't know if I'm saying it right.

How it is done in Japan in the Bujinkan is another thing altogether which I guess should be discussed in another forum as this is a To-Shin Do forum.  References are made to the elements in Bujinkan, but SKH's use of it is completely different.


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## saru1968 (Jan 31, 2007)

lalom said:


> References are made to the elements in Bujinkan, but SKH's use of it is completely different.


 

Yep, totally agree.

I think we were just at slightly crossed wires...


I knew what i meant and so did you.

No problem.

My memories of the concept were a good teaching tool for whats its worth.


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## SKB (Jan 31, 2007)

saru1968 said:


> Yep, totally agree.
> I think we were just at slightly crossed wires...
> I knew what i meant and so did you.
> No problem.
> My memories of the concept were a good teaching tool for whats its worth.


 
Should one take this to imply you beleive the 'concept' has some worth?


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## makchick (Jan 31, 2007)

Speaking of Any To-Shin-Do...does anyone know of anybody training in Ottawa.  I know there aren't any formal Dojos around but figured there has to be someone in the area.  I've trained under Brett Varnum for the past 4 years or so....just curious  give me a shout at *needtrainingpartner@yahoo.ca*


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## saru1968 (Feb 1, 2007)

SKB said:


> Should one take this to imply you beleive the 'concept' has some worth?


 

I never had an issue of it not being of any worth, after all i spent four years of my life ingraining it into my thinking and my actions.


The only confusement for me in the past was the belief it was Bujinkan methodogy.

But as a tool/teaching aid, it works for many, many people.

Gaz.


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## lalom (Feb 1, 2007)

There are still a number of Bujinkan schools that use the Kasumi-An Bujinkan curriculum.   It is the "elemental" teaching method and structure that SKH used while in the Bujinkan.  Although he left and ultimately To-Shin Do was created, a number of his students that remained in the Bujinkan continue to use this curriculum and method to teach the Bujinkan principles.

For me I assimilate the principles easier with this method.  For others they don't.  To each his own...


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## tengu33 (Feb 15, 2007)

hello, this is my first post here
I don't yet but am very interested in it
I've been looking for a training partner in the dallas area for a little while
will probably do a home study course until I find someone to train with since I can't locate anyone in texas which kinda blows me away
very short background with bujinkan which i loved and am looking at restarting with them possibly as well
if anyone knows someone looking to start or already training in dallas please let me know

j. mcginn


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## saru1968 (Feb 15, 2007)

Did you try contacting Luke as suggested on ebudo?

http://www.jigokudojo.com/instructor.htm

or the RVD forum?


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## tengu33 (Feb 16, 2007)

yes, i did check out his website and am in the process contacting them
i've followed up on everyones advice i could
i'm still interested in training in to shin do...possibly concurrent with whatever dojo I do train with... still researching and gathering as much information as I can

j. mcginn


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## saru1968 (Feb 16, 2007)

cool

my only advice would be that you might be better served picking one or the other at a beginners level as it might get confusing and then branch out when you gather more experience.

anyhow let us know how you get on.


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## lalom (Feb 17, 2007)

I guess since I started this thread originally.  For whatever reasons, I never got my answer.  I guess I'll try again.  Perhaps since the move of this forum to another location I'll get better results.

*If you are a practitioner of To-Shin Do, please state where you're from and how long you've been at it.*  Just so that we can see who's who and how many there are of us here.


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## bydand (Feb 17, 2007)

lalom said:


> I guess since I started this thread originally.  For whatever reasons, I never got my answer.  I guess I'll try again.  Perhaps since the move of this forum to another location I'll get better results.
> 
> *If you are a practitioner of To-Shin Do, please state where you're from and how long you've been at it.*  Just so that we can see who's who and how many there are of us here.



Back in post #44 I made mention of the fact I'm To-Shin Do as well.  How long?  Long enough to have the little gold Nin symbol on the front of my Gi.  I don't know if it was system wide or not, but up here (Northern Maine) it stands for founding member, meaning when Quest Centers and To-Shin Do was unveiled, I was training with them already.  So a long-long time now.  I did have to take several years off due to a growing family and moving away, but I'm back and going strong.  I still miss the Bujinkan, and that aspect will never go away, after all, it is where I started in this fine vibrant MA known as Ninjutsu.  There is a strong contingent of TSD practitioners here in the Presque Isle/Caribou, ME area.


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## SKB (Feb 18, 2007)

lalom said:


> I guess since I started this thread originally. For whatever reasons, I never got my answer. I guess I'll try again. Perhaps since the move of this forum to another location I'll get better results.
> 
> *If you are a practitioner of To-Shin Do, please state where you're from and how long you've been at it.* Just so that we can see who's who and how many there are of us here.


 
From California, about three or so years now.


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## maccuda (Feb 21, 2007)

yeps, To-shin do here, studying in the United Kingdom


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## Michael Stinson (Mar 6, 2007)

Hey,

I doubt I will be very active as I am pretty busy...but for some reason I decided to poke my head back in here recently and it seems to be relatively civil.  Will check things out from time to time and participate if it looks interesting 

Michael Stinson
Phoenix Quest Center


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## bydand (Mar 6, 2007)

Michael Stinson said:


> Hey,
> 
> I doubt I will be very active as I am pretty busy...but for some reason I decided to poke my head back in here recently and it seems to be relatively civil.  Will check things out from time to time and participate if it looks interesting
> 
> ...



Why hello Mr. Stinson :wavey:.  I enjoyed your presentation at Discovery last month.  Glad to see you here.


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## Autumnlightning (Mar 9, 2007)

Hi,
 studying To shindo in the Uk and looking forward to the course with Mr Hayes in July.
I have been told that the course will be Chuden /Okuden of the koto Ryu,
Takagi Yoshin ryu and Gyokko ryu. Can anyone confirm this at all ?


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