# If you are teaching women



## aedrasteia (Oct 25, 2018)

if you are teaching women... and you are puzzled by responses you don't understand (flinching, obvious discomfort when working with others, panic attacks, suddenly leaving class or no longer coming to classes),
this is an extremely useful perspective.

https://medium.com/@jesseswanson_43...n-fear-that-your-mind-has-gotten-over-7cdc9d5https:

Often, students in class will over-apologize, laugh (inappropriately) and dismiss their own reactions, shut-down or otherwise try to cover their distress. What do you usually do (if anything)?

w/respect, A


----------



## Martial D (Oct 25, 2018)

1: your link is broken

2: this is not a gender specific issue. Not everyone is cut out for martial arts.


----------



## Christopher Adamchek (Oct 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> 1: your link is broken
> 
> 2: this is not a gender specific issue. Not everyone is cut out for martial arts.


Ditto

Points for when i teach women in my self defense classes:
- i nearly always wear a cup (and they know this) so they can often practice striking there and so that they dont have to worry about genitals in training situations such as bear hugs 
- it is amazingly beneficial to have a female assistant (my fiance ) to help show height and weight differential aspects of techniques, for comfort reasons, and to show strategies and realistic placement of in scenarios where a woman is being inappropriately sexually assaulted - students can see and understand the strategies even if they would not like to practice them in class
 - im more gentle when stepping in and placing and guiding techniques that im correcting them on


----------



## Buka (Oct 25, 2018)

I'd like to read what you posted. I have an idea what it might have been.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Oct 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Not everyone is cut out for martial arts.


 True,  but this is not the issue i believe the OP post is addressing.


----------



## SOD-WC (Oct 25, 2018)

The link doesnt work


----------



## Steve (Oct 25, 2018)

When your body still lives in fear that your mind has gotten over.

I don't know if this direct link works (Works for me), but if you lazy butts put a little effort into it, you can search the title.  Took me literally 10 seconds or less.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 25, 2018)

Steve said:


> When your body still lives in fear that your mind has gotten over.
> 
> I don't know if this direct link works (Works for me), but if you lazy butts put a little effort into it, you can search the title.  Took me literally 10 seconds or less.


Fyi, this link does work for me as well


----------



## Martial D (Oct 25, 2018)

Steve said:


> When your body still lives in fear that your mind has gotten over.
> 
> I don't know if this direct link works (Works for me), but if you lazy butts put a little effort into it, you can search the title.  Took me literally 10 seconds or less.


Ok. What does this have to do with martial arts or being a woman? Plenty of dudes stick around in sour relationships too. I think if you stick around in that sort of situation, be you male or female, you're an idiot.

I wonder what Tim's side of this story looks like.


----------



## wab25 (Oct 25, 2018)

I don't think that being a martial arts instructor qualifies you to know how to handle this... unless you are also a mental health professional with the proper training in this area. If I suspected any of this was an issue, I would pull the student aside and suggest they get help from a qualified professional. Just because I know a handful of katas and convinced some group of people to give me a black belt doesn't mean that I am qualified to handle every type of situation. If a student gets teeth knocked out... I send them to the dentist. If they get a concussion... I send them to the doctor to get cleared. If they are exhibiting these types of symptoms... I would send them to a mental health care professional. Having this student doing the wrong things, can make it much worse for them, even if we mean well. Get them to the proper experts to get the proper care.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2018)

aedrasteia said:


> if you are teaching women... and you are puzzled by responses you don't understand (flinching, obvious discomfort when working with others, panic attacks, suddenly leaving class or no longer coming to classes),
> this is an extremely useful perspective.
> 
> Often, students in class will over-apologize, laugh (inappropriately) and dismiss their own reactions, shut-down or otherwise try to cover their distress. What do you usually do (if anything)?
> ...


I've had these reactions come up more than a few times over the years. Nearly always with a brand-new beginner (first few classes, or at a seminar). Some are as subtle as you mention, and others are breakdowns. As for suddenly not coming to class - can't really say how often that's due to one of these situations, as students do that all the time, for more reasons than I can fathom.

When it happens during a class - assuming they don't have a support person there (spouse or close friend - that changes the dynamic), I normally would ask someone else to watch the class for a bit and check to see if she (yes, as you indicate, this is normally a woman) is doing okay. If she can continue, I'll watch what's immediately causing the reaction, and look for a way to temper it (if it's a touch to the neck/throat, I'll shift the contact point, which often helps). If she's struggling more than that, I'll ask if she needs to sit down for a minute, try to get her away from the class without drawing too much attention (it's a futile attempt - always draws attention, anyway). And I'll ask again if she's okay. Some of them want to talk a little about it (usually no more than "something happened a long time ago" or "I was attacked that way once" or something else suitably vague. If she wants to talk, I just let her. If she wants to step back on the mats, I ask if she wants to try the same exercise, change it a bit, or work on something else - I let her choose her level of comfort.

Unfortunately, I'm neither trained nor equipped to do much beyond that in that situation. I have some training from long ago in crisis intervention, which has helped me help some people close to me, but none of it was training for these kinds of issues. If I had someone who seemed to need help (and who stayed long enough for me to offer contacts - none has yet - the ones that were that heavily stressed just left and I never saw them again), I'd offer to give her the number of a local service that can connect her with someone capable of offering help.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2018)

Steve said:


> When your body still lives in fear that your mind has gotten over.
> 
> I don't know if this direct link works (Works for me), but if you lazy butts put a little effort into it, you can search the title.  Took me literally 10 seconds or less.


Or just use the first half of the URL, which gets you right to the woman's page, where it's a featured article.


----------



## Steve (Oct 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ok. What does this have to do with martial arts or being a woman? Plenty of dudes stick around in sour relationships too. I think if you stick around in that sort of situation, be you male or female, you're an idiot.
> 
> I wonder what Tim's side of this story looks like.


tim would certainly have a story to tell, as well, but it's not either/or.   Your posts on any topic like this are oddly emotional.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 25, 2018)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> Ditto
> 
> Points for when i teach women in my self defense classes:
> - i nearly always wear a cup (and they know this) so they can often practice striking there and so that they dont have to worry about genitals in training situations such as bear hugs
> ...


There is appropriate sexual assault?


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 25, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I've had these reactions come up more than a few times over the years. Nearly always with a brand-new beginner (first few classes, or at a seminar). Some are as subtle as you mention, and others are breakdowns. As for suddenly not coming to class - can't really say how often that's due to one of these situations, as students do that all the time, for more reasons than I can fathom.
> 
> When it happens during a class - assuming they don't have a support person there (spouse or close friend - that changes the dynamic), I normally would ask someone else to watch the class for a bit and check to see if she (yes, as you indicate, this is normally a woman) is doing okay. If she can continue, I'll watch what's immediately causing the reaction, and look for a way to temper it (if it's a touch to the neck/throat, I'll shift the contact point, which often helps). If she's struggling more than that, I'll ask if she needs to sit down for a minute, try to get her away from the class without drawing too much attention (it's a futile attempt - always draws attention, anyway). And I'll ask again if she's okay. Some of them want to talk a little about it (usually no more than "something happened a long time ago" or "I was attacked that way once" or something else suitably vague. If she wants to talk, I just let her. If she wants to step back on the mats, I ask if she wants to try the same exercise, change it a bit, or work on something else - I let her choose her level of comfort.
> 
> Unfortunately, I'm neither trained nor equipped to do much beyond that in that situation. I have some training from long ago in crisis intervention, which has helped me help some people close to me, but none of it was training for these kinds of issues. If I had someone who seemed to need help (and who stayed long enough for me to offer contacts - none has yet - the ones that were that heavily stressed just left and I never saw them again), I'd offer to give her the number of a local service that can connect her with someone capable of offering help.


Well said.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 25, 2018)

Steve said:


> tim would certainly have a story to tell, as well, but it's not either/or.   Your posts on any topic like this are oddly emotional.



I think if you are a guy and have been the victim of an abusive relationship. (And I have seen guys tortured) And get bombarded with this script that girls are the victims and guys are the aggressors. 


So instead of being able empathize with a victim because both guys and girls are victims of scum bags. You are automatically assumed to be the predator.

You get your narky pants on.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 25, 2018)

aedrasteia said:


> if you are teaching women... and you are puzzled by responses you don't understand (flinching, obvious discomfort when working with others, panic attacks, suddenly leaving class or no longer coming to classes),
> this is an extremely useful perspective.
> 
> https://medium.com/@jesseswanson_43...n-fear-that-your-mind-has-gotten-over-7cdc9d5https:
> ...


I expect nerves and jitters from everyone, new students especially. If someone acts unexpectedly, sex is irrelevant, I will keep an eye on them. One of the first things most MA teach is proper decorum. One of the many things it does is help quickly identify such unexpected actions. If a woman quickly leaves the floor and is gone for some time I will have another woman from class check on them. A small part of establishing a pier system. I only need to know they are ok and not having a medical emergency. We all ack weird sometimes. Trying to put an exclamation point on it because a woman did it is unproductive. 
If you decide you are going to teach MA and especially be the business owner you better know this is part of it and have a comprehensive plan packed away in memory to help deal with the many scenarios. People who have been assaulted, as a child or an adult, is often why they walk through the door in the first place. Having some idea of the potential triggers and how to counter them is just one of the complexities of being a teacher. If you only want to teach the physical components, you have stepped outside the MA element and you are a coach. Nothing wrong with that but it needs to be acknowledged. 

This is largely a question for the OP or others females reading the post. When I sign anyone up (male, female, kid) I go out of my way to let then know I am a tactile teacher. I am very hands on, especially with new students. I never do it jokingly and only do it in the context of teaching. It is only to explain technique which I also do verbally at the same time. It was the way I was taught and is the only way I know how to teach. If I sense someone is nervous I will always tell them what I am going to do first and that seems to work. In 34 years I have never had a complaint of any kind. I would like your know your thoughts on this teaching style.


----------



## Martial D (Oct 25, 2018)

Steve said:


> tim would certainly have a story to tell, as well, but it's not either/or.   Your posts on any topic like this are oddly emotional.


Any emotional content you are reading, you are also adding. In fact, it's the opposite, I'm just the one with the balls to approach these things from the other direction rather than sing along with the chorus.

Everyone has their side of the story, and not surprisingly everyone is the protagonist in their own story. 

So we have two issues here. First, the content of the article, which I read as a series of poor life choices that seem to be written in a way to try to evoke sympathy..boring...

And secondly what has being in an unhappy relationship to do with showing up for class, and why specifically only for women? 

Real talk here Steve. You up to it this time?


----------



## drop bear (Oct 25, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> There is appropriate sexual assault?



According to 50 shades of grey.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I think if you are a guy and have been the victim of an abusive relationship. (And I have seen guys tortured) And get bombarded with this script that girls are the victims and guys are the aggressors.
> 
> 
> So instead of being able empathize with a victim because both guys and girls are victims of scum bags. You are automatically assumed to be the predator.
> ...


Valid point, DB. Thanks.


----------



## aedrasteia (Oct 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> 1: your link is broken
> 
> 2: this is not a gender specific issue. Not everyone is cut out for martial arts.


 
is this working?  When your body still lives in fear that your mind has gotten over.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 25, 2018)

aedrasteia said:


> is this working?  When your body still lives in fear that your mind has gotten over.


yes.


----------



## aedrasteia (Oct 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> 1: your link is broken
> 
> 2: this is not a gender specific issue. Not everyone is cut out for martial arts.




this works for me: I hope it works for you:
When your body still lives in fear that your mind has gotten over.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2018)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> i nearly always wear a cup (and they know this) so they can often practice striking there and so that they dont have to worry about genitals in training situations such as bear hugs



How often have I heard that striking to the genitals is effective, females are always told to do that and how many times does it actually work? Well hardly ever. If a man is going to attack someone.... male or female, he comes 'sideways on to protect himself, he expects it. I've seen fighters caught and carry on because the adrenaline masks the pain or at least makes it bearable. Men are very good at protecting their more vulnerable areas. It is such an unreliable strike I rarely teach it.

I know this is off topic but it's something that has always annoyed me, it gives so many females a false sense of security. 'one kick and he's down', nope.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> How often have I heard that striking to the genitals is effective, females are always told to do that and how many times does it actually work? Well hardly ever. If a man is going to attack someone.... male or female, he comes 'sideways on to protect himself, he expects it. I've seen fighters caught and carry on because the adrenaline masks the pain or at least makes it bearable. Men are very good at protecting their more vulnerable areas. It is such an unreliable strike I rarely teach it.
> 
> I know this is off topic but it's something that has always annoyed me, it gives so many females a false sense of security. 'one kick and he's down', nope.


Agreed. And even when struck there, it's not always as effective as we'd expect. I teach it like any other strike - it has uses, but you can't depend upon it to shut down the brain. IMO, its most useful feature is that it might draw one of his hands down to protect, to give a better shot at the head and neck.


----------



## Christopher Adamchek (Oct 26, 2018)

@dvcochran - hahaha, what i meant is that i can do this with my fiancee when teaching a class, i can touch her "inappropriately" so student can see how the defense, escape, etc. really looks

@Tez3 - im not trying to say that that its a one hit wonder, or that i even really focus on teaching women to hit there. But its something they are going to go for, or hit accidentally while practicing so id like to be protected.  It does also make them feel much more comfortable practicing things like bear hugs where they opponent/instructor's body is right against theirs.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2018)

@Tez3 - im not trying to say that that its a one hit wonder, or that i even really focus on teaching women to hit there. But its something they are going to go for, or hit accidentally while practicing so id like to be protected.  It does also make them feel much more comfortable practicing things like bear hugs where they opponent/instructor's body is right against theirs.[/QUOTE]

My instructor never wears a groin guard, says it's restricting and you stop protecting yourself.
I'm not sure women should feel comfortable in class, or men for that matter, self defence is about being able to defend yourself in all situations, once you feel comfortable with people you train with then it comes as more of a shock when it's someone from outside rather than less of a shock. I don't want people pandering to me in class.


----------



## Steve (Oct 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I think if you are a guy and have been the victim of an abusive relationship. (And I have seen guys tortured) And get bombarded with this script that girls are the victims and guys are the aggressors.
> 
> 
> So instead of being able empathize with a victim because both guys and girls are victims of scum bags. You are automatically assumed to be the predator.
> ...


Sure.  I see little value in arguing on an individual level.  The lessons can be clearly seen on a large scale.  Yes, women can harass men.  Yes, men can be victimized.  But if you're a self defense coach and want to better understand the reactions you witness in class, here is some insight.  To respond, "That can also happen to a guy," completely misses the point.  Sure.  It might.  And that is relevant how?

Threads like this aren't about whether something "should" or "shouldn't" be.  That's a philosophical discussion.  Threads like this are about whether something "is" or "isn't."  In other words, when I see a thread like this come up, I see it as a spotlight being shined on something that is already pretty well known among women.  It's constructive feedback for those who are inclined to listen.  It's peeling back a layer to reveal something that may be in a blind spot.  I don't take threads like this as a referendum against men or anything like that, even if they comment on "men" in the plurality.   It's a shorthand. 

Whether a guy has a completely different perspective on the same situation has no bearing on whether a woman views it as outlined in the OP.  Said differently, if women as a group can read that article and relate, then it is tapping into a shared experience.  It is completely irrelevant that it may also be true that men can relate to THEIR side of the story.  That might be another thread.  If Martial D or you, DB, want to start a thread on the emotional or psychological damage women can inflict in a relationship, go for it.  I look forward to reading it.


----------



## Steve (Oct 26, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Any emotional content you are reading, you are also adding. In fact, it's the opposite, I'm just the one with the balls to approach these things from the other direction rather than sing along with the chorus.
> 
> Everyone has their side of the story, and not surprisingly everyone is the protagonist in their own story.
> 
> ...


When you say you aren't emotional and are also bringing your balls into the discussion, you're kidding only yourself, my friend. 

Regarding your issues, I think you're pretty clear in the first.  Noted.  So, going forward, I don't know what more we could discuss.  You think it's boring.  Cool.

Regarding your second question, you're taking a position.  What's your rationale?  The article and the OP articulated a position, which you seem to disagree with.  So far, I have only seen vague, emotional objections that amount to, "What about me?" 

Being childish isn't the same as being "real."


----------



## Martial D (Oct 26, 2018)

Steve said:


> When you say you aren't emotional and are also bringing your balls into the discussion, you're kidding only yourself, my friend.


If you actually believe that, you and I aren't even the same species.



> Regarding your issues, I think you're pretty clear in the first.  Noted.  So, going forward, I don't know what more we could discuss.  You think it's boring.  Cool.


Yes boring..and irrelevant. Are you going to answer the question?


> Regarding your second question, you're taking a position.  What's your rationale?  The article and the OP articulated a position, which you seem to disagree with.  So far, I have only seen vague, emotional objections that amount to, "What about me?"


My rational? For asking a question without making any assertions I guess? Rational is something you give to conclusions, not questions.

So are you going to answer or do I have to sit through more of your amateur hour psychology first?



> Being childish isn't the same as being "real."


Some might say projecting your feelings onto others is childish. Asking relevant questions never is.


----------



## Steve (Oct 26, 2018)

Martial D said:


> If you actually believe that, you and I aren't even the same species.


You caught me.  I'm actually a cat.





> Yes boring..and irrelevant. Are you going to answer the question?


I did answer it.  I just didn't answer it directly.  





> My rational? For asking a question without making any assertions I guess? Rational is something you give to conclusions, not questions.


"Rationale" is not the same as "rational."  





> So are you going to answer or do I have to sit through more of your amateur hour psychology first?


You are getting answers.  You just don't seem to understand them.  





> Some might say projecting your feelings onto others is childish. Asking relevant questions never is.


That's true.  Projecting your feelings onto others is childish.  Had you not done this in your first few posts, where might we be?


----------



## drop bear (Oct 26, 2018)

Steve said:


> Sure.  I see little value in arguing on an individual level.  The lessons can be clearly seen on a large scale.  Yes, women can harass men.  Yes, men can be victimized.  But if you're a self defense coach and want to better understand the reactions you witness in class, here is some insight.  To respond, "That can also happen to a guy," completely misses the point.  Sure.  It might.  And that is relevant how?
> 
> Threads like this aren't about whether something "should" or "shouldn't" be.  That's a philosophical discussion.  Threads like this are about whether something "is" or "isn't."  In other words, when I see a thread like this come up, I see it as a spotlight being shined on something that is already pretty well known among women.  It's constructive feedback for those who are inclined to listen.  It's peeling back a layer to reveal something that may be in a blind spot.  I don't take threads like this as a referendum against men or anything like that, even if they comment on "men" in the plurality.   It's a shorthand.
> 
> Whether a guy has a completely different perspective on the same situation has no bearing on whether a woman views it as outlined in the OP.  Said differently, if women as a group can read that article and relate, then it is tapping into a shared experience.  It is completely irrelevant that it may also be true that men can relate to THEIR side of the story.  That might be another thread.  If Martial D or you, DB, want to start a thread on the emotional or psychological damage women can inflict in a relationship, go for it.  I look forward to reading it.



I am sharing an insight in to why guys react defensively to these sorts of articles. Which is an expression of psychological damage. You seemed confused as to what someone's motivation might be.

Curious if I started a post on the trauma of being mugged and assaulted by black people if it would recieve the same defense.


----------



## Martial D (Oct 26, 2018)

Steve said:


> You caught me.  I'm actually a cat.I did answer it.  I just didn't answer it directly.  "Rationale" is not the same as "rational."  You are getting answers.  You just don't seem to understand them.
> That's true.  Projecting your feelings onto others is childish.  Had you not done this in your first few posts, where might we be?


So, you will be avoiding questions that you cant answer and offering more noise instead. Noted. Im doing my surprised face.

Always a pleasure...

Just for the record the answer to the question is 'nothing at all'


----------



## Buka (Oct 26, 2018)

I just read this thread. It saddened me, I get like that at times, I've dealt with these things over the course of my career.

But I'm kind of at a loss for words.


----------



## Steve (Oct 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I am sharing an insight in to why guys react defensively to these sorts of articles. Which is an expression of psychological damage. You seemed confused as to what someone's motivation might be.
> 
> Curious if I started a post on the trauma of being mugged and assaulted by black people if it would recieve the same defense.


I understand what you meant and why you posted it.  I think this is more analogous to a black person posting about risks young black men have of being shot by police, and cops responding defensively by saying, "We shoot white people, too."


----------



## Steve (Oct 26, 2018)

Martial D said:


> So, you will be avoiding questions that you cant answer and offering more noise instead. Noted. Im doing my surprised face.
> 
> Always a pleasure...
> 
> Just for the record the answer to the question is 'nothing at all'


Good luck to you, man.  I hope you and your balls stay well. LOL.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 26, 2018)

Steve said:


> Sure.  I see little value in arguing on an individual level.  The lessons can be clearly seen on a large scale.  Yes, women can harass men.  Yes, men can be victimized.  But if you're a self defense coach and want to better understand the reactions you witness in class, here is some insight.  To respond, "That can also happen to a guy," completely misses the point.  Sure.  It might.  And that is relevant how?
> 
> Threads like this aren't about whether something "should" or "shouldn't" be.  That's a philosophical discussion.  Threads like this are about whether something "is" or "isn't."  In other words, when I see a thread like this come up, I see it as a spotlight being shined on something that is already pretty well known among women.  It's constructive feedback for those who are inclined to listen.  It's peeling back a layer to reveal something that may be in a blind spot.  I don't take threads like this as a referendum against men or anything like that, even if they comment on "men" in the plurality.   It's a shorthand.
> 
> Whether a guy has a completely different perspective on the same situation has no bearing on whether a woman views it as outlined in the OP.  Said differently, if women as a group can read that article and relate, then it is tapping into a shared experience.  It is completely irrelevant that it may also be true that men can relate to THEIR side of the story.  That might be another thread.  If Martial D or you, DB, want to start a thread on the emotional or psychological damage women can inflict in a relationship, go for it.  I look forward to reading it.


I do worry that thread and articles like this predispose women to think ALL men have a douchebag side. We have to acknowledge the exceptional, whether good or bad, to learn form it. But that is not the norm.


----------



## Steve (Oct 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I do worry that thread and articles like this predispose women to think ALL men have a douchebag side. We have to acknowledge the exceptional, whether good or bad, to learn form it. But that is not the norm.


Regarding the actual article, I truly don't understand how anyone would take this poorly.  I didn't read the article as an indictment of all men, nor did I get the impression that it was saying all women are victims of abuse.  I wonder why some men are so defensive about articles like this. 

Honestly, we all have d-bag sides.  I picked my avatar because I like the message.  I like that it doesn't say, "Don't be a dick."  Instead, it says, "Try not to be a dick."  Just try.  We are all a-holes sometimes.  Just try not to be an a-hole.  And some women think all men are jerks, just like some men think all women are jerks, and some white people think all black people are bad and etc.  That's called being a bigot.  But that's on them.   I'm not going to worry about trying to convince a bigot who thinks all men are evil that I am an exception. 

And, all that said, I think it's interesting and helpful to understand why they think it.  This was an article posted to share some insight with men who teach women, posted by a woman.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 26, 2018)

Steve said:


> I understand what you meant and why you posted it.  I think this is more analogous to a black person posting about risks young black men have of being shot by police, and cops responding defensively by saying, "We shoot white people, too."



I am not savvy on using the code editor so I  have to copy/paste.
@drop bear said:
 I am sharing an insight in to why guys react defensively to these sorts of articles. Which is an expression of psychological damage. You seemed confused as to what someone's motivation might be.

Curious if I started a post on the trauma of being mugged and assaulted by black people if it would recieve the same defense.

I have to disagree with both of you. I am old enough that being "macho" and having a male ego is ok. Thinking it weak or wrong to allow yourself to be assaulted is normal. It doesn't mean I have psychological damage. I think that may be an answer from the "educated" perspective.


----------



## Buka (Oct 26, 2018)

Steve said:


> I understand what you meant and why you posted it.  I think this is more analogous to a black person posting about risks young black men have of being shot by police, and cops responding defensively by saying, "We shoot white people, too."



Doh!


----------



## Buka (Oct 26, 2018)

This poster has recently been put up in the New York subways by their sanitation department.




 

If the cartoon figure in the poster was of any other demographic, think it would have caused any problems?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 26, 2018)

Buka said:


> This poster has recently been put up in the New York subways by their sanitation department.
> 
> View attachment 21847
> 
> If the cartoon figure in the poster was of any other demographic, think it would have caused any problems?


Wait...so are sam adams, white males, red sox fans, or patriots fans trash? There is so much in there the poster can be referring to...my head hurts


----------



## Martial D (Oct 26, 2018)

Steve said:


> I understand what you meant and why you posted it.  I think this is more analogous to a black person posting about risks young black men have of being shot by police, and cops responding defensively by saying, "We shoot white people, too."


That actually is very analogous, just not in the way that you think.  The risk isn't of 'young black men' getting shot, it's of 'people pointing guns at/trying to fight with cops' getting shot. On this front the statistics actually show you're more likely to be shot if you're white.

Weaselling 'race' in there is politics.


----------



## Buka (Oct 26, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Wait...so are sam adams, white males, red sox fans, or patriots fans trash? There is so much in there the poster can be referring to...my head hurts



In a sports sense, yes, which is what my guess this was all about. Boston and New York have been at odds with each other for many a year. Back to the Babe Ruth days, probably longer.

We are Massholes. At least I used to be. Now I'm a _Haole Masshole_. Damn proud of it, too. 

You know why? Because we really, really like parades.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2018)

Buka said:


> If the cartoon figure in the poster was of any other demographic, think it would have caused any problems?




It would mean absolutely nothing to tourists and visitors though. In the UK we don't tend to use the word 'trash'. We say 'rubbish' and if used as an adjective isn't really an insult, I would for example tell you I was 'a rubbish golfer'. The name and supposed sports link would also be lost on non Americans as would the whole poster, valid as New York is a huge tourist destination ( if an odd one sometimes, my daughter went to a restaurant that prides itself on it's rudeness!)


----------



## drop bear (Oct 27, 2018)

Buka said:


> This poster has recently been put up in the New York subways by their sanitation department.
> 
> View attachment 21847
> 
> If the cartoon figure in the poster was of any other demographic, think it would have caused any problems?



Lol. White trash.


----------



## Steve (Oct 27, 2018)

Buka said:


> This poster has recently been put up in the New York subways by their sanitation department.
> 
> View attachment 21847
> 
> If the cartoon figure in the poster was of any other demographic, think it would have caused any problems?


It's possible.  I think there's value in that discussion.  Relevant to this thread, the discussion above would be completely distinct from the discussion that Boston fans might have about how they feel unwelcome in NYC.  Those poor, dumb Boston fans.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Oct 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> Those poor, dumb Boston fans.


I resemble that remark.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 27, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> It would mean absolutely nothing to tourists and visitors though. In the UK we don't tend to use the word 'trash'. We say 'rubbish' and if used as an adjective isn't really an insult, I would for example tell you I was 'a rubbish golfer'. The name and supposed sports link would also be lost on non Americans as would the whole poster, valid as New York is a huge tourist destination ( if an odd one sometimes, my daughter went to a restaurant that prides itself on it's rudeness!)


It is 100% tailored to newyorkers/'new englanders'. So many references that would be lost on others. Like the kevin durant knicks poster that went up recently.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 27, 2018)

Martial D said:


> 2: this is not a gender specific issue. Not everyone is cut out for martial arts.



i had a giggle fit with a red belt once for a self defence themed lesson.


----------



## Brian King (Oct 27, 2018)

aedrasteia said:


> Often, students in class will over-apologize, laugh (inappropriately) and dismiss their own reactions, shut-down or otherwise try to cover their distress. What do you usually do (if anything)?




*Aedrasteia asked*,

“Often, students in class will over-apologize, laugh (inappropriately) and dismiss their own reactions, shut-down or otherwise try to cover their distress. What do you usually do (if anything)?”


Men and women often express emotion and past trauma outwardly differently yet often the internal mechanisms are nearly the same, and these can be recognized, experienced, and better understood. Once understood they can be named and tamed. Our students are taught to recognize a nervous system reaction (their own, their training partners, and others in the class) while training in our courses and to value the experience and learn that the ability to control and quickly recover from these reactions is one of the prime benefits of our training, not to be ignored or taken lightly. We teach them from day one to pay attention to, and to take the time to address their nervous system reactions and to value the experience of working with others who might be dealing with nervous system arousal issues. It is often that someone has to pause the ‘training’ to do some movement to help cleanse the body, to change and emphasize breathing, are to otherwise deal with the bodies remembered traumas. These times are learning experiences for all involved, and valued greatly as such rather than as a weakness or a bother.


We also do A LOT OF various massages during classes and these sessions help to inoculate the stresses of body nearness, pressure, and contact. Massage is a great way of manipulating the nervous system in a safe and learning environment. Massages using tools (often knives, pistols, shovels, chains, and sticks) is also a great way to get comfortable with both sides of the tool use (the user and the one it is being applied to) and to start to recognize system arousals in their very beginning before total hijacking.  


Breathing, movement, deliberate controlled exposure, massage, bodywork, and stress inoculation are all tools that the students learn to use as they self-care and care for their training partners while training.  


Regards

Brian King


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 27, 2018)

Man, I am just going to say it. I never, never want to be comfortable with a gun in that way. Period.


----------



## Brian King (Nov 4, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Man, I am just going to say it. I never, never want to be comfortable with a gun in that way. Period.



@dvcochran 
Why not?


----------



## drop bear (Nov 4, 2018)

Brian King said:


> @dvcochran
> Why not?



Gun massages?

Look I get in to some freaky buisness. But that even made me do a double take.


----------



## Brian King (Nov 4, 2018)

Quickly.

People hold fear and trauma within their bodies and an outstanding way of experiencing and understanding these ‘tension spots’ is thru massage. It is interesting that it does not necessarily have to be deep body/tissue massage to reach and openly explore those locked in tension knots. For example, it is not unheard of to release these knots during striking drills.

Some people having weapons in their hands/on body or facing an armed training partner also induces excess tension either from fear or past traumas. A very interesting way of sensitizing people to these knots, which are very often unconscious, is also thru massage.

There is a best practice for martial artists is to leave the training with less knots and fear than they arrived to the training with. Yup, again this is often accomplished thru massage.

For weapons work it can be psychological strengthening to learn how the weapons can heal as well as injure. For addressing fear and/or trauma acquired during weapons sparring and drilling, it is often very interesting to use the same tool that gave the lumps to reduce the lumps, as well as explore the different tone of the training partners while doing the both the massage as well as the sparing/drilling.

For those in action professions one of the standard rules is to eliminate non-essentials. They have to carry what they need for long distances and often have to live with what they bring with them. Learning how to make their tools multi-purpose is a win.

As an example for working with hand and long guns, simply lay the weapon beside the student and have them lay their arms, legs, or torso across the weapon. Lay there a moment or two and explore any tension acquired, use breathing to remove the tension noticed.  Once a student is ok with the weapon below the body have an additional student do push-ups by placing their closed fists on the other students body (the one with a weapon under their body) and perform their push-ups. Extra points if the student doing the push-ups can tell where under their partners body the weapon is hidden merely by observing the excess tension written on their partner. This understanding is very helpful while everyday carrying and especially during a self-defense struggle/ scramble should a weapon be dropped or loosed from holster/belt/pocket. Often people who have not done this type of training cannot even tell the butt of weapon from the muzzle when laying across it.

Another example to lay multiple weapons of various types haphazardly on the floor and have the students slowly roll and crawl around on the floor blindfolded and once over the weapon pick it up so that it can instantly be used while maintaining their rolls and movements. Once acquired, the weapon is then left and a new weapon is sought.

Percussion type of massage (trying to stay off bones, of course) using weapons can also prove useful and will also highlight and expose excess tension due to the introduction of the weapon even with the lightest of taps.

Exposure to weapons work in different circumstances and situations sensitizes students to the whole possibilities of the work. It reduces the talisman effect and unrealistic expectations that many who carry weapons display. 

Regards
Brian King


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 5, 2018)

Brian King said:


> Some people having weapons in their hands/on body or facing an armed training partner also induces excess tension either from fear or past traumas.




Putting a weapon near my students is likely to induce them to either KO you or roll around on the floor laughing. They know more about weapons ( including those that civilians don't get their hands on) and have used them in war zones so are not going to be impressed by an instructor suggesting a massage. mention massage to a squaddie and you'll get a blush making reply


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Putting a weapon near my students is likely to induce them to either KO you or roll around on the floor laughing. They know more about weapons ( including those that civilians don't get their hands on) and have used them in war zones so are not going to be impressed by an instructor suggesting a massage. mention massage to a squaddie and you'll get a blush making reply


I don't think anything Brian posted was intended to impress the students.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think anything Brian posted was intended to impress the students.



Did you see the grinning emoji at the end? This one  indicating a humorous post?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Did you see the grinning emoji at the end? This one  indicating a humorous post?


I thought that was for the last part. Missed the tone in the middle.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I thought that was for the last part. Missed the tone in the middle.



Nope. Whole post, irony.


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

Buka said:


> This poster has recently been put up in the New York subways by their sanitation department.
> 
> View attachment 21847
> 
> If the cartoon figure in the poster was of any other demographic, think it would have caused any problems?




After the White males, they're going to be going after the Asians next....who will fold much quicker.


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Putting a weapon near my students is likely to induce them to either KO you or roll around on the floor laughing. They know more about weapons ( including those that civilians don't get their hands on) and have used them in war zones



"Civilians don't get their hands on"....you mean because WWI weapons are antiques and hard to find?


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Nov 6, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> After the White males, they're going to be going after the Asians next....who will fold much quicker.


I am struggling to find a non-racist context for this statement.  Hopefully someone can 'enlighten' me.........


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> I am struggling to find a non-racist context for this statement.  Hopefully someone can 'enlighten' me.........



What? How was it racist? Was that cartoon, racist?


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Nov 6, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> What? How was it racist? Was that cartoon, racist?





FriedRice said:


> going after the Asians next....who will fold much quicker.


Why would Asians fold much quicker than white males ?


----------



## WaterGal (Nov 6, 2018)

Martial D said:


> That actually is very analogous, just not in the way that you think.  The risk isn't of 'young black men' getting shot, it's of 'people pointing guns at/trying to fight with cops' getting shot. On this front the statistics actually show you're more likely to be shot if you're white.
> 
> Weaselling 'race' in there is politics.



IIRC, black men are four times more likely than white men to be shot by the police. There just are far more white men then black men in the US, so the total overall number of white men that get shot by the police is higher.


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Why would Asians fold much quicker than white males ?



are you Asian?


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> IIRC, black men are four times more likely than white men to be shot by the police. There just are far more white men then black men in the US, so the total overall number of white men that get shot by the police is higher.



How come there aren't as many Asian men getting shot, in the same proportions if racial profiling was the issue?  What about other minorities, such as Arabs or Middle Easterners as a whole? Rarely any Middle Easterners are shot by Cops.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Nov 6, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> are you Asian?


Interesting that you ask that question.   Does that have anything to do with your statement about Asians folding faster than white males ?


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Interesting that you ask that question.   Does that have anything to do with your statement about Asians folding faster than white males ?



Yes.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Nov 6, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> I am struggling to find a non-racist context for this statement. Hopefully someone can 'enlighten' me.........


I am no further enlightened.....    Your comment sounds racist.  If you are good with that, I think it says more about you than me.


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> I am no further enlightened.....    Your comment sounds racist.  If you are good with that, I think it says more about you than me.



aww why wouldn't you answer my question? I thought we were friends.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Nov 6, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> aww why wouldn't you answer my question? I thought we were friends.


Some people are not strong enough to admit they said something wrong, apologize and move on.  If you are happy to be perceived as a racist, no sweat off my back.  I can just scroll on by your posts and my involvement with you is over.  It won't change the fact that you said something racist but that will be something you will have to live with, not me.


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Some people are not strong enough to admit they said something wrong, apologize and move on.  If you are happy to be perceived as a racist, no sweat off my back.  I can just scroll on by your posts and my involvement with you is over.  It won't change the fact that you said something racist but that will be something you will have to live with, not me.



Nice try, but I think that you're the Racist.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 6, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> "Civilians don't get their hands on"....you mean because WWI weapons are antiques and hard to find?




No, because civilians don't get to use the modern weapons the military use in anger. They may try them out on ranges etc but they don't actually get to use them every day. 
Actually World War One weapons aren't hard to find at all, many people have them in their collections.


----------



## Buka (Nov 6, 2018)

I'd advise everyone to calm down and be damn careful where you go with this racist talk.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2018)

Buka said:


> I'd advise everyone to calm down and be damn careful where you go with this racist talk.


I hear you brother. Is it just me or does @FriedRice's  post sound a lot like @ShotoNoob who makes some crazy rants? Multiple accounts maybe?


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I hear you brother. Is it just me or does @FriedRice's  post sound a lot like @ShotoNoob who makes some crazy rants? Multiple accounts maybe?



No, it's just you, and I think you're @Buka.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> No, it's just you, and I think you're @Buka.


Never met the guy but from what I have read, I will take it.


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Never met the guy but from what I have read, I will take it.



Then multiple accounts confirmed. Initiate ban. 3, 2, 1....


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Then multiple accounts confirmed. Initiate ban. 3, 2, 1....


Are you confirming that you have multiple accounts?


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Nov 6, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Are you confirming that you have multiple accounts?


@dvcochran, there is no point to interact with people like Fried Rice or Shoto Noob, imho.  They don’t care about what anyone else thinks which is kind of odd considering we are all having discussions in a virtual forum.   True we may not all agree about everything but if people cannot act with a minimal amount of decorum, why should anyone care about anything they would have to say.

For the record, Buka, I didn’t call FR a racist but I continue to struggle to understand how what he said can be understood in any another context other than a racial slur.   FR still hasnt provided another reasonable explanation as to what he could have meant.   Out of the 100 posts he may make, I may find 1 or 2 amusing but this type of behaviour is simply not something I associate with a true Martial Artist.


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 7, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> @dvcochran, there is no point to interact with people like Fried Rice or Shoto Noob, imho.  They don’t care about what anyone else thinks which is kind of odd considering we are all having discussions in a virtual forum.   True we may not all agree about everything but if people cannot act with a minimal amount of decorum, why should anyone care about anything they would have to say.
> 
> For the record, Buka, I didn’t call FR a racist but I continue to struggle to understand how what he said can be understood in any another context other than a racial slur.   FR still hasnt provided another reasonable explanation as to what he could have meant.   Out of the 100 posts he may make, I may find 1 or 2 amusing but this type of behaviour is simply not something I associate with a true Martial Artist.



I think you're the racist. Especially when you're not even Asian. Let me guess, you're a White guy, extra sensitive.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 7, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I think you're the racist. Especially when you're not even Asian. Let me guess, you're a White guy, extra sensitive.



Do you ever think that maybe, just maybe you could be wrong considering EVERYONE else think differently?


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 7, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Do you ever think that maybe, just maybe you could be wrong considering EVERYONE else think differently?



Everyone, meaning you and a few other people, esp. gammy? That's funny.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> are you Asian?


Why would that matter?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> How come there aren't as many Asian men getting shot, in the same proportions if racial profiling was the issue?  What about other minorities, such as Arabs or Middle Easterners as a whole? Rarely any Middle Easterners are shot by Cops.


So it's only "racial profiling" if it includes everyone except whites??????


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Nice try, but I think that you're the Racist.


Weak troll is weak.


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 7, 2018)




----------



## jks9199 (Nov 7, 2018)

Thread locked pending review.

jks9199
Administrator


----------

