# Toy guns and kids



## Lisa (Jan 9, 2006)

I was just wondering what everyone felt about kids and toy guns.  Is it a good idea? Do you let your children play with them?  Do you think it a good idea with the violence and the "desensitization" of your kids today?

I believe allowing your children to play with toy guns is truly a personal parental decision.  We never allowed that in our home.  Our philosophy was that since we had real guns in our home, we didn't want the kids to think that they were toys.  They were to be respected and handled appropriately and not to be taken lightly.  

However, that being said, it could be argued that even though we never allowed our kids to have them, their friends, cousins etc. may have them.  For us, it really wasn't much of an issue because we had girls and not too many of their little girlfriends were exposed to toy guns, let alone the real thing.  

So I figured I would put the question out to the gun enthusiasts we have on our forum.  What say you about the whole "toy gun" issue.  Good or bad?


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## Jonathan Randall (Jan 10, 2006)

I think it can be a healthy part of growing up, but you must limit it to toys and areas where the fake is not taken as the real thing and a tragedy occurs. Children have had toy guns for ages, and often real ones as well without using firearms to commit murder. Your point about real guns in the house and not wanting your children confused is a good one, though. My view is that if you limit any exposure by strict rule it will make the children naturally more curious and more likely to say yes when a friend or neighbor asks if they want to see their parent's real guns (a situation that happened to me when I was about nine).

Depends on the parents, the children, the area and a host of other issues. No one rule is good, IMO, so parents have to use their own judgment in their own individual cases.


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## arnisador (Jan 10, 2006)

We didn't encourage it, but didn't prevent it. Kids learn to mimic guns with their fingers if they don't have toy guns...it can't reasonably be avoided, I feel.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 10, 2006)

I don't think letting your kids have toy guns is a big deal as long as they know the difference between the toys, and the real thing.  I had toy guns growing up even though we had real guns and BB/Pellet guns as well.  It was also impressed upon me constantly that when handling a real gun, safe handling was required.  

As I've stated in other discussions, I feel that the best way to prevent kids from playing with, or handling guns in an unsafe manner is to teach them to handle them properly.  Eliminate their curiosity by allowing them to take participate while stressing safe handling skills and you won't see the problems.

Personally, I think all the stuff we see about not allowing kids to play with toy guns, or to play "cops 'n' robbers" or dodgeball because these things make them more violent is a load of crap...but that's just my $0.02


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## dearnis.com (Jan 10, 2006)

I think there are probably worse things than an a good old fashioned game of cowboys and indians/cops and robbers/whatever.
I remeber growing up having "gunfights" with my dad using these toy ray gus that shot (spring mechanism I guess) flat plastic discs.  That would probably be called bad parenting today.


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## Jade Tigress (Jan 10, 2006)

I don't see anything wrong with letting kids play with toy guns IF parents take the time to teach their children the dangers of real guns.

My son has been fascinated with guns from the time he could talk. (I have no idea where that comes from). Anyway, we got him a Daisy rifle for Christmas when he was 5 and he was taught the difference between that BB gun and his toy guns, and was taught safe handling of that BB gun, and every one he's gotten since. He has excellent safety awareness now. He knows the punishment if he disregards safety rules is that _all_ his BB guns will be taken away. He also knows BB guns can be dangerous if handled improperly. He is 12 now and _not once_ has he made a safety mistake.

However, even without the BB guns, he was taught that if he _ever _is with a friend who brings out a gun that is not a toy he is to immediately come home. Do not touch the gun, do not look at the gun. _Leave immediately and tell. _He knows accidents with real guns can happen easily. We never encouraged him toward guns, it's just who he is, it's a natural interest for him. It gave us the opportunity to teach him about guns and safety. I don't know that if he didn't want to play with toy guns, we would have had the forethought to teach him about being in a situation with a real gun. Hard to say if it would have crossed our minds. Out of sight, out of mind, as they say. In any case, I don't see a problem with toy guns in general.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jan 10, 2006)

I'm with Arni.  I'vew seen my boy make a gun out of twigs, coat hangers, slim jims and socks.  I think back on my childhood and I remember making grnades out of paper wads.  It seems that gravitation toward conflict occurs naturally in children...well, boys, at least.


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## MJS (Jan 10, 2006)

Sil Lum TigerLady said:
			
		

> I don't see anything wrong with letting kids play with toy guns IF parents take the time to teach their children the dangers of real guns.


 
Exactly!!  While I do not have kids of my own, I did grow up playing cops and robbers, etc. with my friends.  Parents need to take an active role in their childs life, making sure that they teach them right from wrong.  If the parents don't take the lead, how is the child going to know any better?

Mike


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## terryl965 (Jan 10, 2006)

I have three boys and they all at one time or another have made gun from everything, they use alot of building blocks to mimic guns or sticks, so why not just explain what the benefit of having a gun and making sure they understand what a gun can do.
Terry


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## Drac (Jan 10, 2006)

Having grown up in the era of the Mattel Toys "Fanner 50" I don't see anything wrong with kids playing with guns..There are WORSE things they they could be playing with..We had a BB rifle and pistol too and my Dad instilled a healthy respect for these and fear of what he would do if he caught us handling them incorrectly..My 2 cents..


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## hemi (Jan 10, 2006)

Ok maybe I am just different, maybe I am a little redneck in my upbringing. As a kid at about age 8 I was told over and over how to load, aim, shoot and clean all the weapons in the house. I was also taken out in the pasture and was able to shoot any weapon I wanted to shoot (or was brave enough to shoot a second time) but it was Very understood that only if my dad was with me would I be able to shoot. Also I knew very well not to touch the guns in the house unless my dad was with me or it was an absolute emergency. Now if some one was breaking in and it was just my sister and me I could and would have been able to defend ourselves. I also had no desire to touch the guns with out parental permission since there was no curiosity I knew full well what each gun was capable of if used wrong. I got my first shot gun at age 10, I was given a 410 single shot for Christmas and used that gun until I was 14 then I was given a 20Ga. I still had that gun until two years ago when I my house was broken into. Growing up I had more pellet guns than I can remember, and I hunted every day and I can not tell you how many rabbits and squirrel I skinned as a kid. Now that I have kids of my own, two girls 13 and 5 I made it very well known to them that we have guns in the house. They are not loaded and I keep the guns and ammo separate but my girls know that they are not toys. My girls also know what my guns can do as I took both out to Grandpas pond and I shot a few rounds into the pond to show them these are not toys and what can happen if used wrong. My oldest knows how to shoot, aim and load the guns I do have. My youngest is still a few years away from that but she knows that she is not to touch any of the weapons in the house and she has no desire too since she has been exposed to them. I took away the curiosity by showing them what they are and that there is no magic its just a tool and if used correctly would be safe but in the wrong hands can be very dangerous. 

On the issue of kids and school shootings and accidents with firearms I have to say it is my opinion that most can be contributed to a lack of parenting. I dont think for a second that video games and T.V make kids do the things that some do. Not having one or both parents around to raise them is a big factor, not having family values, schools that are so over burdened that they can not take the time to notice a problem with a student. And even if they do see a problem the school would not want to get involved for fear of legal issues. The list goes on and on and of course this is only my opinion to be taken as a grain of salt.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 10, 2006)

I don't encourage my kids to play with toy guns.  However, I will teach them how to use real ones.  I want my children to have a healthy respect for any weapon and its usage...guns included.

I think our society is obsessed with violence and it would bother me to see my four year old kid blasting away at her little baby brother...even if it is a toy.  

When they are older, I may introduce my children into various shooting sports...including sports where humans are targets, but even then, I want to stress proper handling, sportsmanship, and safety.  This is no different then introducing a kid to Martial Arts like boxing or Fencing IMO.

The bottom line is that, as a parent, I believe that we can never be "too careful" when weapons and our children mix.  We need to model proper behavior for them and we need to discourage improper behavior.  Toy guns can encourage improper behavior and I think that gun owning parents, at the vary least, need to be wary.  

The biggest thing I think that parents can do is be consistent with the rules.  With toy guns or real ones, the ettiquette, respect, and usage need to be the same in order to eliminate any potential misunderstandings.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 10, 2006)

2004hemi said:
			
		

> On the issue of kids and school shootings and accidents with firearms I have to say it is my opinion that most can be contributed to a lack of parenting. I dont think for a second that video games and T.V make kids do the things that some do. Not having one or both parents around to raise them is a big factor, not having family values, schools that are so over burdened that they can not take the time to notice a problem with a student. And even if they do see a problem the school would not want to get involved for fear of legal issues. The list goes on and on and of course this is only my opinion to be taken as a grain of salt.


 
Part of the "family values" debate is consistency, IMO.  If a parent wants to teach their child about weapons and violence, then they need to control messages that run counter to the messages that they are trying to teach their children.  If this includes banning certain movies or video games from the house, so be it.  

If you think about this, it only makes sense.  If a parent teaches their children how to use a firearm safely and then sits down and watches a movie where adults handle firearms in an unsafe manner, that parent has just undermined what they have just taught to the child.  

Sure, the argument could be made that kids should be taught the difference between reality and fantasy, but this argument is flawed when one considers the developmental psychology of children.  Kids are first able to make a separation between fantasy and reality starting sometime in their teens...and even though younger kids "appear" to be able to do this, research shows that they either cannot or are still confused much of the time.

The bottom line is that I believe parents need to be consistent regarding safety issues.  Counter messages need to be controlled or one is playing with fire.


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## Nanalo74 (Jan 10, 2006)

Very interesting discussion. I think it all boils down to the manner in which guns are introduced and explained to children and the attitude of the parents towards firearms.

I was born and raised in New York. My mother allowed us to play with toy guns and we did. We enjoyed our games very much. My grandfather is a Korean War veteran and martial artist. He taught us a healthy respect for weapons and the ways of the warrior. 

Later on, I attended boarding school in Michigan where, much like Texas, young people are taught to handle firearms at an early age. It was there that I learned to fire, clean, and care for firearms. I also learned to fire a crossbow and was given a compound bow for my birthday. I never did get to go on a hunting trip, but I got pretty good with my bow.

The situation here in NY is interesting because the average citizen is discouraged from owning weapons yet illegal firearms flood the streets. Criminals have no problem getting them and are quick to use them. That's why I think gun laws are ridiculous. What sense does it make to put law-abiding citizens through the rigamarole of trying to obtain a license to carry, or own, or whatever when the scumbag on the street isn't going to bother with all of that. He doesn't have to. 

Regarding toy guns. The drug culture is so glamorized here that many young people in the inner cities use their toy guns to emulate, not the police or the military, but the criminal. They wanna be Scarface, not John Wayne. Many youngsters have been killed by police officers in New York because they pulled their toy guns on the cops. Toy guns that were made to look like the real thing. So now it's illegal to sell toy guns that are black or silver. They have to be bright orange. Unfortunately, that hasn't stopped some teenagers from spray painting them black or silver and using them in holdups around the city.

Again, I think it comes down to how guns are introduced and taught to a child and the attitude of the parents.

Vic
www.combatartsusa.com


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## Makalakumu (Jan 10, 2006)

Alot of times, when a tragedy occurs, a certain segment of the population screams that it was the parents fault.  "Bad Parenting" is the cause.  Rarely, though, is "Bad Parenting" outlined.  

Our culture can, unfortunately, encourage bad parenting, IMO.  And parents that are involved can sometimes not know they are participating in Bad Parenting" until its too late.  Take a look at the post above.  How many of the parents of the kids in question think they were "bad" parents?  

I'm sure that the answer is very few.  How does this apply to toy guns?  I think it comes down to consistency in delivering safety messages.  How many of these parents delivered proper messages regarding guns and violence only to have music, video games, and movies counter that message?  Is this any different then telling your kids not to smoke and then lighting up?

Parents need to be aware of anything that undermines the consistency of their message, because being inconsistent is "bad parenting".  Our kids gradually grow into adults...and this includes their minds.  If we don't tailor our messages for their developing minds we could be giving inconsistent messages.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 10, 2006)

Lisa said:
			
		

> Is it a good idea?



Neither good or bad.  Whatever the parents want to do.



			
				Lisa said:
			
		

> Do you let your children play with them?



Yes, most certainly.  In fact, I remember having this discussion with my wife regarding toy guns when my son was old enough to play with them.  I was raised playing with toy guns and probably fought every major war in the fields next to my childhood home with my pals.  Needless to say, I am not serial killer or murderer, in fact, I have never been in any trouble with the law.  With that said, I was very adamant that my son would play with them if he wants to.  I have/had many guns in the house.  When he was  about 5 years old, I bought him a BB gun.  Using the BB gun, I began to teach him how to handle a gun safely.  Later, when he was old enough, he went to the range with me and shot REAL guns.  I also don't stigmatize guns as bad. People are bad, not the guns.  There is a long standing policy in our house;  If he wants to hold a gun and look at it, he needs to come to me and ask, and I will get it out for him, clear it and let him hold it until he has satisfied his curiosity.  Needless to say, I could easily leave my loaded .45 ACP on the dining room table and he would not be the slightest bit interested in handling it.  He has already shot all of my guns at the range and knows what they do.  He clearly knows what is a toy gun and what is real.



			
				Lisa said:
			
		

> Do you think it a good idea with the violence and the "desensitization" of your kids today?



I think guns and violence "desensitization" are two totally unrelated issues.   The issue with the violence and desensitization is that many movies and games allow them to dole out death and mayhem without any responsibility for their actions.  For instance they shoot something/someone in the game and it just disappears, very unlike the real life where they would have to deal with the results of that action both physically and emotionally.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 10, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I was raised playing with toy guns and probably fought every major war in the fields next to my childhood home with my pals. Needless to say, I am not serial killer or murderer, in fact, I have never been in any trouble with the law.


 
One thing to remember with experience like these is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  I wonder if a study has been done regarding the messages a child hears and its correlation to misuse of firearms?  My gut feeling is that if the message is consistent, then the amount of misuse is greatly reduced.  Studies have been done that show that people who smoke around their kids are more likely to raise children who smoke...I think this implies that misuse of firearms could also be a learned behavior.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 10, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Studies have been done that show that people who smoke around their kids are more likely to raise children who smoke...I think this implies that misuse of firearms could also be a learned behavior.


If I understood your post LOL You raise an interesting point that I am curious about as well.  To complicate this, age of the child is probably a significant factor.  Using the smoking studies you mentioned, I can definitely agree with as I have seen this personally, but there is a caveat (age).

For example, when my brother and I were children (under the age of 10) neither of my parents smoked.  Following a divorce, my mother took up smoking.  Several years later, I had a sister who was raised with my mother smoking. Fast forward to today, neither myself or my brother smoke, however, my sister does, even though my mother no longer smokes.  I chose 10, because it was relative to the events in question.

Thinking along that line I could see how improper use of firearms could teach the wrong thing. However, I wouldn't know anything about that.  It has been my experience that people either properly use guns or don't use them at all.  I haven't met anyone that owned guns and handled them improperly.  Although, I do know there are plenty out there, but not within my circles.


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## Danny T (Jan 10, 2006)

Bigshadow, 

I did much the same with my boys. They played with toy guns and starting around 5 years of age we let them &#8220;play&#8221; with the real guns. Under our supervision most any time they wanted to see or handle the guns we would take them out, take them apart, clean, shoot, clean and put away. Took cartridges apart fired the primer caps, burned the powder. They lost all curiosity. We also stressed the only use of a firearm is to kill. We use it for target practice only to have the ability to aim and fire to kill. It is not a toy. Both of my sons were shooting from the age of 5 and continue today. Both grew up with BB, Pellet, 410 shotguns before the age 10. By the time they were 16 each had a 16 gauge and a hand gun of their choice of caliber. I never was concerned about their firearm safety because of the training we gave them and the responsibility we held them to.

Guns and the playing with toy guns don&#8217;t harm anyone. People harm! Can accidents happen, Yes. That is why guns just as anything else must be used in the manner they are made for. Use a lawnmower improperly and it will cause tremendous damage also. Guns are a tool just as an automobile is. Desensitization of violence has nothing to do with guns, although guns are used in many violent actions. Automobiles accidents are just as violent often more so. Why no concern about our youth playing with toy cars and trucks. Baseball can be violent. Lets throw a hard dense sphere toward another person who had better be ready to not get hit by it as they attempt to hit the sphere back toward the person throwing it. We even place other people in an area they may catch or if not paying direct attention may get hit by the sphere when the hitter hits it. We teach our youth the dangers of this and let them play with bats and balls. We even teach them how to hit harder, throw harder, how to steal (and reward them), how to get in front of and catch the sphere. Even though they can and many youth are injuried by doing so, all in the name of fun. 
Toy guns, no problem.




> I think guns and violence "desensitization" are two totally unrelated issues. The issue with the violence and desensitization is that many movies and games allow them to dole out death and mayhem without any responsibility for their actions. For instance they shoot something/someone in the game and it just disappears, very unlike the real life where they would have to deal with the results of that action both physically and emotionally.


 Excellent!! 

We as a society have also disconnected ourselves from death. And therefore our youth don&#8217;t understand it. We ship our dead off to someone else (funeral homes) to have them perform the actions of what is needed. We are not involved in taking care of the dead. I know many people who have never been to a funeral or wake. Children are not exposed to or given the opportunity to witness or experience death and its immediate aftermath. Something so natural in life. But we get into an emotional uproar about toys.

Danny Terrell


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## Makalakumu (Jan 10, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> It has been my experience that people either properly use guns or don't use them at all. I haven't met anyone that owned guns and handled them improperly. Although, I do know there are plenty out there, but not within my circles.


 
It improper/unsafe usage isn't neccessarily something the parent has to model.  Our culture can do it...and does it with certain forms of music, video games, and movies.  These messages can run counter to the teachings of the parents if they are not dilligent in being consistent.

Toy guns are not the cause of improper/unsafe firearm handling practices...however, they can facilitate them.  If a child uses a toy gun to reenact their favorite scene in The Terminator, they are practicing using a gun unsafely.  One can only hope that this behavior doesn't transfer towards the usage of real weapons...but as Martial artists, we already know, that in some cases it does.

Look at any blade training, for instance.  We know that there are safe ways of using a blade and that there are unsafe ways.  If we train in unsafe ways with a wooden knife (a toy), then there is a good chance that the unsafe ways will express when we need to use the skills in real life.  IMO, playacting with a toy gun resembles a form of training (kinda like sparring).

With that being said, I have no problem if my kids want to use toy guns to playact legitimate shooting activities, like hunting, as long as they remember the rules and use the toy in a safe manner.  The toy gun isn't the problem.  The manner in which it is used is.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 10, 2006)

I grew up in a household full of guns, I had toy guns (back in the day when TOY guns looked like real guns... before the days of brightly colored plastic guns or even orange/red tips.), I grew up on shows like Dirty Harry and John Wayne movies (He was my dads favorite) AND I was a latch-key kid who basically raised himself while both of my parents worked.

I never played with the real guns.  I never shot anyone, accidentally or on purpose.  I respected the guns, and I knew better than to use them...

Why? 

I'd say because: 

#1 My parents taught me VALUES and RESPECT as a child. (Its ok, I grew out of them)
#2 SPANKING wasnt "abuse" and It was an excellent deterrent to doing things I was told not to do.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 10, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Toy guns are not the cause of improper/unsafe firearm handling practices...however, they can facilitate them.  If a child uses a toy gun to reenact their favorite scene in The Terminator, they are practicing using a gun unsafely.  One can only hope that this behavior doesn't transfer towards the usage of real weapons...


Again, I think age or level of maturity is the determining factor (with age not necessarily being the same for everyone  ).  For instance children at an early age cannot tell the difference between reality and fantasy or truth and fiction.  For example, I realized with my own son when he was very young that children cannot determine when a parent is joking with them or telling them the truth, so they believe everything.  I learned I had to give him a REAL answer first, because that is what he will remember from that moment forward.  As he got older he could tell the difference between a joke answer versus a REAL answer.  I think the same applies to the video games and movies.  At an early age they have nothing to compare it with and it can often be accepted as REAL but later they can tell the difference.  So after some point in time there won't be an issue.


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## Eternal Beginner (Jan 10, 2006)

My sister vowed never to let her kids play with any kind of gun.  By the time they were 3 and 4 they were fashioning guns out of their Lego...so much for her vow.

My son has always played with guns, he even earned enough money to buy his own BB gun this summer.  That being said, I have never, don't and will never allow "real" guns in my home.  My son knows about gun safety as his uncle, who is an avid hunter, has taught him proper care and feeding of firearms, but it is nothing I will ever encourage.  When he has his own home, he can do as he pleases.

I don't think it has desensitized him to violence.  He is still a caring, sweet boy who can't stand it if a bird hits the window, no matter thinking it is okay to go out and hurt another human being because he played cops/robbers or soldiers with his buddies.  I think parenting is the real issue, not playing with guns.


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## hemi (Jan 10, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> #1 My parents taught me VALUES and RESPECT as a child. (Its ok, I grew out of them)
> #2 SPANKING wasnt "abuse" and It was an excellent deterrent to doing things I was told not to do.




Yes Sir.


One of the guys I work with has a daughter that is 19 now but back when she was 18 she went little nuts one night. From what he said she wanted to do something he told her no and she began to claw and scratch him so he grabbed her by the arm to get her under control. Well the police were called by his daughter and to make a long story short he was arrested. My friend spent the night in jail then had to make bail ($600). And to top it all off his daughter dropped all charges but then the state of TX pressed the issue and he spent the next year in and out of court until the state finally dropped the charges. He spent if I remember correctly about $3000 all said and done.  Its things like this that contribute to why kids can end up they way some do.


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## Nanalo74 (Jan 10, 2006)

If the rationale for not allowing children to play with toy guns or learn to handle firearms because they can kill or harm others, then should we teach our children martial arts techniques that can kill or harm others?

True, a bullet can kill or maim. But so can a shot to the throat or a rake to the eyes. Again, I think it comes to how it is taught to the child and the parents' attitude. If the parent has no respect for the arts and is a hothead that uses his training for the wrong reasons, the child will learn the same. The same holds true for firearms.

Vic
www.combatartsusa.com


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## Blotan Hunka (Jan 10, 2006)

Little boys have ALWAYS played with toy weapons. I believe I saw wooden weapons found in ancient ruins from Rome somewhere. Some of the BEST memories I have are of running around the woods with my friends palying "war". When I got older we even shot padded arrows at each other and had shinai swords for war games. Setting war game rondevous with laser tag gear late at night during summer vacation and my friend and I stalking through the woods to find our other friends who lived on the other side. Great stuff. Most of us went on to be soldier and Marines too. They are all good people. Didnt make them crazed criminal killers or anything.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 10, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Again, I think age or level of maturity is the determining factor (with age not necessarily being the same for everyone  ).


 
I think of maturity as developmental age...and yes, I would wholeheartedly agree.  At some point, this becomes a non issue.  The boundary lines between fantasy and reality are more clear and (hopefully) safe usage practices have been ingrained.  If my son or daughter wanted to play a shooting video game and they are 16 or 17 years old, I wouldn't object.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 10, 2006)

Nanalo74 said:
			
		

> If the parent has no respect for the arts and is a hothead that uses his training for the wrong reasons, the child will learn the same. The same holds true for firearms.


 
I agree.  This is why I think it is so important to stay consistent with our children.  We are their models and we are their filters.  We are responsible for their learning...and, depending on their developmental age, their actions.  

IMO, playing with toy guns isn't a problem if the child uses the toys according to the rules and regs set down by the parents.  This is how I grew up and this not only helped me be consistent with my firearm safety, but it also helped me develop a healthy idea of right and wrong regarding violence.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 10, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Little boys have ALWAYS played with toy weapons. I believe I saw wooden weapons found in ancient ruins from Rome somewhere. Some of the BEST memories I have are of running around the woods with my friends palying "war". When I got older we even shot padded arrows at each other and had shinai swords for war games. Setting war game rondevous with laser tag gear late at night during summer vacation and my friend and I stalking through the woods to find our other friends who lived on the other side. Great stuff. Most of us went on to be soldier and Marines too. They are all good people. Didnt make them crazed criminal killers or anything.


 
The fact that we mimic other militaristic societies in the past may or may not be a good thing.  ALL of those societies did not last very long after the point at which they became obsessed with violence.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 10, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> ALL of those societies did not last very long after the point at which they became obsessed with violence.


I don't think their obsession with violence was the cause of their demise, I think it was their obsession to bring back to their society everything they conquered that caused their demise.  But that is a thread of it's own. 

It kinda reminds me of the "war of the worlds"


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## Blotan Hunka (Jan 10, 2006)

I dont think its "mimicing". I think its natural. I think that while there is the one end where kids are becoming too obsessed with violence and on the other side theres people who want to turn little boys into something other than little boys.  I dont think we are going to be able to pull the aggression out of boys without breaking them. Its teaching them what is worth fighting over and what isnt thats important. Nothing "changes" kids into killers, its the negligence of the people around them to teach them what is right and wrong. IMO I think that the whole trend towards making Patriotism a bad word has denied some boys the channel of "fighting for duty, honor, God, family, and Country". Thats all being made to sound naive so why not fight for turf, respect, money, clothes and gangs?


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## Lisa (Jan 10, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> I think it can be a healthy part of growing up, but you must limit it to toys and areas where the fake is not taken as the real thing and a tragedy occurs. Children have had toy guns for ages, and often real ones as well without using firearms to commit murder. Your point about real guns in the house and not wanting your children confused is a good one, though. My view is that if you limit any exposure by strict rule it will make the children naturally more curious and more likely to say yes when a friend or neighbor asks if they want to see their parent's real guns (a situation that happened to me when I was about nine).
> 
> Depends on the parents, the children, the area and a host of other issues. No one rule is good, IMO, so parents have to use their own judgment in their own individual cases.



Good post, Jon.

Sensibility is key and teaching your children the difference is important.  I guess with us, not wanting the toy guns in the house worked since we had girls and girls (at least ours) never wanted to play cops and robbers, or war, etc.  If we had boys, I would bet our children would have been exposed to toy guns elsewhere and our "rules" probably would have changed.

The important thing to remember, and I see a lot of that being said here, is HOW and WHEN the children are exposed to the real thing as opposed to a toy.  It is important to teach the child the responsibility that comes with the real thing and it is even more important that the Adult be responsible enough not to put a loaded weapon where a child has access to it and think that threatening them with punishment if they ever touch it will realistically keep that child from it.  Gun safety and responsibility is number 1.


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## Jade Tigress (Jan 11, 2006)

> I think parenting is the real issue, not playing with guns.



I do believe it all boils down to this statement.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 11, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> I dont think its "mimicing". I think its natural. I think that while there is the one end where kids are becoming too obsessed with violence and on the other side theres people who want to turn little boys into something other than little boys. I dont think we are going to be able to pull the aggression out of boys without breaking them.


 
In a way, I agree.  However, I think that natural aggression can be channeled more constructively into other avenues that do not "train" unsafe firearm handling practices.  Sports is a good avenue.  So is martial arts.  



> Its teaching them what is worth fighting over and what isnt thats important. Nothing "changes" kids into killers, its the negligence of the people around them to teach them what is right and wrong. IMO I think that the whole trend towards making Patriotism a bad word has denied some boys the channel of "fighting for duty, honor, God, family, and Country". Thats all being made to sound naive so why not fight for turf, respect, money, clothes and gangs?


 
I disagree.  I think that making sure toy guns are used as models of real ones is only reinforcing what the parents (should) have already taught to their kids about gun safety.  The parent is being a good parent by being consistent and staying on message.  

Not allowing children to play war or shoot at each other has nothing to do with loving one's country or deciding to serve it.  Not allowing a child to do these things sends a powerful message about safety...that safety is paramount and that there are no exceptions.  I still remember my father saying, after he caught me pointing a toy gun at my brother, "If I can't trust you with a toy, how can I trust you with a real one?"  He took that toy away and he took my brothers shooting and I stayed home.  This really upset me because shooting real guns is WAY more fun then playing with toys...and I still understand this lesson today.

The other message that this sends to children is that violence is a bad thing.  War is a bad thing.  It is not something that should be played.  Both my grandfathers served in WWII, four of my uncles served in Veitnam, one uncle served overseas in the Cold War, and two of my cousins have fought in the Gulf.  They were all adamant about this.  As children, we did not "play" with guns AT ALL, and we learned how to be safe in all circumstances.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 18, 2006)

Lisa said:
			
		

> I was just wondering what everyone felt about kids and toy guns. Is it a good idea? Do you let your children play with them? Do you think it a good idea with the violence and the "desensitization" of your kids today?
> 
> I believe allowing your children to play with toy guns is truly a personal parental decision. We never allowed that in our home. Our philosophy was that since we had real guns in our home, we didn't want the kids to think that they were toys. They were to be respected and handled appropriately and not to be taken lightly.
> 
> ...


 I always had toy guns as a kid, I had a good time with them.....That having been said, I think the idea that with real guns, around toy guns should not allowed, is sound advice.  Parents who own firearms should teach their children early and consistently that guns are not a child's toy.  They sabotage this if they allow children to play with toy guns.  A child should always respect a gun, and allowing them to play with toy guns undermines this.

Upnorth had some good points.  I have no problems with teaching a child how to shoot.  I'd rather teach a child how to shoot and respect a real gun, than play with a toy one.  They learn responsibility and safety.  I've had relatives children play with guns, and I correct them when they point a toy gun at other people.  I make them treat a toy gun like a real one.  I will not allow my own children to play with toy guns, but I will teach them responsible and safe gun handling.


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