# Best side kick I have seen on Youtube



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

And it's not TaeKwondo!

10/10


----------



## Christopher Adamchek (Dec 4, 2020)

its clean


----------



## skribs (Dec 4, 2020)

k


----------



## Bruce7 (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And it's not TaeKwondo!
> 
> 10/10


He may know a different art, but yes that is a TKD side kick.
It is not uncommon for masters of a different art to use a TKD kick 
Example Bruce Lee used a TKD side kick a lot.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 4, 2020)

Bruce7 said:


> He may know a different art, but yes that is a TKD side kick.
> It is not uncommon for masters of a different art to use a TKD kick


That is a Karate Kick. That is the kekomi version of yoko geri. 
It is not uncommon for common techniques to have different names in different arts.
It is not uncommon for common techniques to be included in different arts.

If you want to get technical... yoko geri has been a part of the karate curriculum since before TKD was a thing. And TKDs roots go back to Shotokan Karate. Funakoshi was teaching yoko geri long before he ever taught yoko geri to General Choi.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 4, 2020)

Bruce7 said:


> He may know a different art, but yes that is a TKD side kick.
> It is not uncommon for masters of a different art to use a TKD kick
> Example Bruce Lee used a TKD side kick a lot.


Shotokan kicks are basically the same as (kukkiwon) TKD kicks a lot of the time, from what I can tell.
Edit: Technically reverse the order I guess. TKD kicks are basically the same as shotokan kicks.


----------



## paitingman (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And it's not TaeKwondo!
> 
> 10/10


That's a nice kick

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Shotokan kicks are basically the same as (kukkiwon) TKD kicks a lot of the time, from what I can tell.
> Edit: Technically reverse the order I guess. TKD kicks are basically the same as shotokan kicks.



They are not, although you could argue that they are in theory. In other words, if a Karateka spent the same emphasis and study on the mechanics of kicking, they would reach the same end. This would be an example of that.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2020)

Lots of arts do side kicks, and at this point they've pretty much all influenced each other enough that you're not going to be able to tell origins.
And no, it's not a 10.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Lots of arts do side kicks, and at this point they've pretty much all influenced each other enough that you're not going to be able to tell origins.
> And no, it's not a 10.



You can't in this case but in 99% of the time you can.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

Conversely, if Taekwondoins spent the same focus on punching, they would punch like Karatekas. And some do, but very few.


----------



## Steve (Dec 4, 2020)

Two things. 

First, a few have said it's not a 10 or implied it's not great.  I'm interested to hear some critique.  I mean, for the uneducated person like me, what's wrong with it?

Second, when I saw the title for the thread, I thought first of sidekick in the superhero sense, and thought this would be a video of someone cosplaying Robin or something.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You can't in this case but in 99% of the time you can.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> First, a few have said it's not a 10 or implied it's not great.  I'm interested to hear some critique.  I mean, for the uneducated person like me, what's wrong with it?



It's a nice kick, but it's not a 10. Different systems teach variations, but in our system the supporting foot should pivot more. The heel should end pointing at the target. 



> Second, when I saw the title for the thread, I thought first of sidekick in the superhero sense, and thought this would be a video of someone cosplaying Robin or something.



That would have been fun. Here you go.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's a nice kick, but it's not a 10. Different systems teach variations, but in our system the supporting foot should pivot more. The heel should end pointing at the target.




That contradicts your previous post.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That contradicts your previous post.



No, it doesn't.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Lots of arts do side kicks, and at this point they've pretty much all influenced each other enough that you're not going to be able to tell origins.
> .



That would nullifiy your claim about system calibrations.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> They are not, although you could argue that they are in theory. In other words, if a Karateka spent the same emphasis and study on the mechanics of kicking, they would reach the same end. This would be an example of that.





Acronym said:


> Conversely, if Taekwondoins spent the same focus on punching, they would punch like Karatekas. And some do, but very few.


So you agree that mechanically they're the same punches and kicks for the most part? Just a difference in what tends to be focused on in shotokan vs. tkd schools?


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> So you agree that mechanically they're the same punches and kicks for the most part? Just a difference in what tends to be focused on in shotokan vs. tkd schools?



No because the level of instruction and knowledge is worse. If you don't know better, you won't kick better.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No because the level of instruction and knowledge is worse. If you don't know better, you won't kick better.


But the actual mechanics. If you looked in a handbook for each of them, you would see the same kicks, and it just comes down to how well an individual a:is taught it and b: practices.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No because the level of instruction and knowledge is worse. If you don't know better, you won't kick better.


Wouldn't the video that you posted to start this thread prove otherwise? Since it's a shotokan practitioner who has a good sidekick, so therefore the instruction and knowledge was there?


----------



## wab25 (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No because the level of instruction and knowledge is worse. If you don't know better, you won't kick better.


Sorry, but TKD is not the only art in the world that knows how to kick. There happen to be quite a few different arts that are pretty good at kicking and have produced amazing kickers.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Wouldn't the video that you posted to start this thread prove otherwise? Since it's a shotokan practitioner who has a good sidekick, so therefore the instruction and knowledge was there?



I see it from time to time and there is usually a rational explanation. The most common one is that they have done the other art as well.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I see it from time to time and there is usually a rational explanation. The most common one is that they have done the other art as well.


Then do you think the guy in the initial video has also trained TKD?


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Sorry, but TKD is not the only art in the world that knows how to kick. There happen to be quite a few different arts that are pretty good at kicking and have produced amazing kickers.



I have seen enough poor hip mechanics for kicking in Shotokan to last me a lifetime.

I have also seen awesome ones like this gentleman. Guess which was more common?


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Then do you think the guy in the initial video has also trained TKD?



I have no idea but it would make sense because he is an outlier. You can see Sensei Seth on Youtube.. He had a clear TKD flavor to his spin kicks and he did indeed start in Taekwondo.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But the actual mechanics. If you looked in a handbook for each of them, you would see the same kicks, and it just comes down to how well an individual a:is taught it and b: practices.



That does tend to be the case. But I haven't gotten enough of a sample of it to confirm that conclusively


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I have no idea but it would make sense because he is an outlier. You can see Sensei Seth on Youtube.. He had a clear TKD flavor to his spin kicks and he did indeed start in Taekwondo.


Cool. So is your purpose in posting it trying to find out whether he's an outlier, or a TKD guy in disguise/former TKD guy?


----------



## wab25 (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I have seen enough poor hip mechanics for kicking in Shotokan to last me a lifetime.


The same could be said about TKD, Kung Fu, Muay Thai, Kickboxing or any other art that does kicking. Those are statements about the individuals training the arts, not about the arts themselves. And each one of those arts, Karate included, as been able to produce very good kickers. While TKD is good at kicks, they are not the only ones that are good at kicks.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I have no idea but it would make sense because he is an outlier.



His knife hand block does not look TKD to me...





Thats a very Shotokan Knife hand block.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

wab25 said:


> The same could be said about TKD, Kung Fu, Muay Thai, Kickboxing or any other art that does kicking. Those are statements about the individuals training the arts, not about the arts themselves. And each one of those arts, Karate included, as been able to produce very good kickers. While TKD is good at kicks, they are not the only ones that are good at kicks.



No there is a difference. I have seen a lot of high level Karatekas with crisp punches but poor hips

Just like I have seen high level TKDoins with awesome hips but terrible punches.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

wab25 said:


> His knife hand block does not look TKD to me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We talked about kicks and the principles behind them


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That would nullifiy your claim about system calibrations.



What are you babbling about?


----------



## wab25 (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I have no idea but it would make sense because he is an outlier.


You claimed that since his kick was good, he must have trained in TKD. I was pointing out that there is no TKD showing up in his knife hand blocks at all. (I couldn't find the guys name or bio to know for sure what he trained...)

That said, it is foolish to think that only TKD can produce good kickers with proper hips.

Edited to put in the correct quote


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> What are you babbling about?



If he didn't make any mistakes according to his own system, then it is 10/10.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

wab25 said:


> You claimed that since his kick was good, he must have trained in TKD. I .



That's not what I said


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> If he didn't make any mistakes according to his own system, then it is 10/10.



Are you claiming to know exactly what system(s) he's trained in, and also that you're qualified to judge that system?


----------



## wab25 (Dec 4, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Are you claiming to know exactly what system(s) he's trained in, and also that you're qualified to judge that system?


He is qualified to judge anything involving a kick of any kind... Just ask him, he will tell you...


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Are you claiming to know exactly what system(s) he's trained in, and also that you're qualified to judge that system?



My rating was art independent


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> Two things.
> 
> First, a few have said it's not a 10 or implied it's not great.  I'm interested to hear some critique.  I mean, for the uneducated person like me, what's wrong with it?
> 
> Second, when I saw the title for the thread, I thought first of sidekick in the superhero sense, and thought this would be a video of someone cosplaying Robin or something.


Not a 10 for me.  On a scale of 0 -10 with 10 being the best,  I'm thinking that it's a 6 or 7.  Here's what I'm looking at.

Leg strength 10 - The ability to hold the kick pose
Flexibility 10 - The ability to hold the leg up at that height.
Functional  5 - The first thing reaction that I got wasn't a thought . The first reaction was my body actually preparing to grab the leg. My muscles literally twitched because of how the kick doesn't return to chamber.  It drops at the end which makes it perfect for catching that leg.  I've always been taught to never fall into a kick like that.

I did a few side kicks myself to double check, to see if I have that same issue and I don't.  Every kick came back and I never fell into bow stance either.  For me that felt really awkward because my kicks always returned.  I understand that systems aren't the same so I'm not saying his kick sucks.  I'm just saying it wasn't a great side kick based on my how I was trained to do side kicks and functionally using side kicks.

With all of that said.  The only reason to fall into a kick is set someone up, where you want them to grab your leg. If that's not your goal then I wouldn't recommend falling forward after a kick.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 4, 2020)

I think I'm too functional for this discussion.
A great side kick is one that doesn't get grabbed and breaks a few ribs before it returns
A good side kick is one that doesn't get grabbed but lands solid
A bad side kick is one that puts you in more trouble than you were in before the side kick.

If just looking at the mechanics
A great side kick is one that works with the body and is controlled
A good side kick is one that  works with the body but lacks control
A bad side kick where  the mechanics cause injury and causes unnecessary damage to you.

These should be fairly universal regardless of system,  The variation of what system uses what is going to run into issues as there are only a few ways that one can physically do a side kick without causing unnecessary injury.  Because of this, it's only natural that some kicks are going to be very similar if not identical.  How many Martial Arts systems have side kicks?  There's bound to be replication.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 4, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The first reaction was my body actually preparing to grab the leg. My muscles literally twitched because of how the kick doesn't return to chamber. It drops at the end which makes it perfect for catching that leg. I've always been taught to never fall into a kick like that.


There are two types of yoko geri, kekomi and keagi. He actually does both. The first one he does is keagi, or the snap kick version. This first kick, he does return to chamber. (he is showing the control in the video... normally it would be done faster). The second kick is the kekomi version. This is a thrust side kick. The idea is that you kick through your opponent and drive him back... thus you step forward after the kick, in order to follow up.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> My rating was art independent



You misspelled "ignorant". Hope this helps.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

wab25 said:


> There are two types of yoko geri, kekomi and keagi. He actually does both. The first one he does is keagi, or the snap kick version. This first kick, he does return to chamber. (he is showing the control in the video... normally it would be done faster). The second kick is the kekomi version. This is a thrust side kick. The idea is that you kick through your opponent and drive him back... thus you step forward after the kick, in order to follow up.



Both are kekomi. The keagi they lean forward, or rather upright.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> You misspelled "ignorant". Hope this helps.



I know more about than Shotokan than you, clearly.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 4, 2020)

wab25 said:


> There are two types of yoko geri, kekomi and keagi. He actually does both. The first one he does is keagi, or the snap kick version. This first kick, he does return to chamber. (he is showing the control in the video... normally it would be done faster). The second kick is the kekomi version. This is a thrust side kick. The idea is that you kick through your opponent and drive him back... thus you step forward after the kick, in order to follow up.


All of my kicks thrust with the exception of some of my front kicks.  For me the thrust part in my side kick comes from body movement.  I went back to the vide and saw that he doesn't move forward when doing the side kick.

Definitely difference kicking theories going on.  But thanks for the info on the side kick and how it's done in that system. I learned something new.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 4, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> All of my kicks thrust with the exception of some of my front kicks.  For me the thrust part in my side kick comes from body movement.  I went back to the vide and saw that he doesn't move forward when doing the side kick.
> 
> Definitely difference kicking theories going on.  But thanks for the info on the side kick and how it's done in that system. I learned something new.



The keagi in shotokan is garbage. it has no power and the body mechanics is stupid.


----------



## skribs (Dec 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I know more about than Shotokan than you, clearly.



What don't you think you know more than anyone else about?

You "know" this is a Shotokan kick...that's the best kick ever...that has serious flaws.  You posted this on the TKD page instead of the Shotokan page.  Somehow you've managed to take a massive dump on both Taekwondo and Karate in the process.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> Somehow you've managed to take a massive dump on both Taekwondo and Karate in the process.



Lol. It's a fact that TaeKwonDo schools in most cases place a greater emphasis on proper hip mechanics for kicking, and less time on punching in general.

So the two arts compliment each other very well, actually. It's kinda like judo and BJJ in that regard.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 5, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think I'm too functional for this discussion.
> A great side kick is one that doesn't get grabbed and breaks a few ribs before it returns
> A good side kick is one that doesn't get grabbed but lands solid
> A bad side kick is one that puts you in more trouble than you were in before the side kick.
> ...



He is not sparring


----------



## Acronym (Dec 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> What don't you think you know more than anyone else about?
> .



Because I have talked to chief instructors like Dirty Dog and they have this autistic expertise about their own art and don't know more than a layperson about the others, often even parent arts.

And part of autism is a refusal to look beyond ones own horizon, and that's a chief instructor for you...


----------



## Acronym (Dec 5, 2020)

Even KKW instructors don't jack you know what about ITF...And vice versa


----------



## Acronym (Dec 5, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Cool. So is your purpose in posting it trying to find out whether he's an outlier, or a TKD guy in disguise/former TKD guy?



I missed this one. No but I posted it here because w are are the side kick specialists normally but credit where credit is due. He is Shotokan (at least the time of the footage) and he earned my respect


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And it's not Taekwondo!
> 
> 10/10


How does this "Side Kick" differ from the "Taekwondo" Sidekick. ? Detailed explanation please.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 5, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> How does this "Side Kick" differ from the "Taekwondo" Sidekick. ? Detailed explanation please.



It doesn't.. Most people don't do it this well though in Shotokan


----------



## Acronym (Dec 5, 2020)

And it was a shotokan guy doing it. So thats it wasnt TKD


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 5, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Shotokan kicks are basically the same as (kukkiwon) TKD kicks a lot of the time, from what I can tell.
> Edit: Technically reverse the order I guess. TKD kicks are basically the same as shotokan kicks.


Especially in traditional TKD. The newer more competition focused WT kicks are somewhat different but the origination is the same. 
I fully agree the origin of the kick(s) is Japan, Okinawa or possibly China. So yes, the video could easily be a Shotokan practitioner.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 5, 2020)

Here's just a brief sample. 

So not the same in practise. You don't learn Karate for the kicks.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 5, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Lots of arts do side kicks, and at this point they've pretty much all influenced each other enough that you're not going to be able to tell origins.
> And no, it's not a 10.


Not quite a 10, but it is pretty close. Lacking some rotation IMHO. 
The kick and hard step forward reminds me of a Shotokan school I worked out at with some friends back in the day. They really emphasized the hard step to show you put full power into the kick.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 5, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But the actual mechanics. If you looked in a handbook for each of them, you would see the same kicks, and it just comes down to how well an individual a:is taught it and b: practices.


Keep reeling him in brother!


----------



## Steve (Dec 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Because I have talked to chief instructors like Dirty Dog and they have this autistic expertise about their own art and don't know more than a layperson about the others, often even parent arts.
> 
> And part of autism is a refusal to look beyond ones own horizon, and that's a chief instructor for you...


Autism isn't a behavior. It is a medically diagnosed developmental disorder.  I find your use of the term very distasteful.  I have friends and relatives who are actually autistic, and using the term as a cheap insult is just not okay.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> He is not sparring


yes I know, but I look at techniques from the perspective of application and effectiveness and not based on how nice it looks, hence my statement.  "Im too functional for this discussion".  For example, trying to determine where the kick comes from means zero to me.  If the kick isn't functional nor practical then everyone will be trying their best not to claim the click.  But because the discussion is about how nice the kick looks you hear people wanting to claim that it comes from different systems.

To me the only thing that matters is.
1. Is the kick functional
2. Is the kick found in other systems.

If the kick is functional then it's of use.  If the kick is found in other systems then that gives you insight on which systems may try to use this kick against you..  How nice it looks is just cosmetic when it comes to function.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It doesn't.. Most people don't do it this well though in Shotokan


See. this is what I'm talking about.  Cosmetic.   What I'm actually seeing this discussion is how a kick looks and who can make it look nice.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 5, 2020)

*NOTICE TO ALL MEMBERS:*

Personal insults are not tolerated. If they continue, those involved may receive points and/or time off.

*Gerry Seymour
MartialTalk Moderator*
@gpseymour


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And it was a shotokan guy doing it. So thats it wasnt TKD


So, if a German makes Pizza it's not Italian?


----------



## Metal (Dec 5, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> How does this "Side Kick" differ from the "Taekwondo" Sidekick. ? Detailed explanation please.



There are differences:

Right arm:
In (Kukkiwon) Taekwondo both arms are kept close to the body when performing a sidekick.

Pivoting foot:
After the kick he's pivoting the foot of the supporting leg on the heel. In (Kukkiwon) Taekwondo you'd turn on the ball of the foot.

Also:
The leaning and 'falling' forward into the next stance is something you would not see in a Taekwondo Poomsae. 

It's a great kick nevertheless.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 6, 2020)

Metal said:


> There are differences:
> 
> Right arm:
> In (Kukkiwon) Taekwondo both arms are kept close to the body when performing a sidekick.
> ...



There is no rule where to keep the arms. It all depends on the context


----------



## Acronym (Dec 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> So, if a German makes Pizza it's not Italian?



It's not an Italian just because he made pizza... This was a Karateka with Karate terminology.


----------



## Steve (Dec 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> So, if a German makes Pizza it's not Italian?


You ever have german pizza?  It's definitely not italian.


----------



## Metal (Dec 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There is no rule where to keep the arms. It all depends on the context



Well, when it comes to Kibon Dongjak/Basic Movements and Poomsae in (Kukkiwon) Taekwondo, there is a rule of how to hold the arms. On the one hand to remind people from not doing a 'dying swan' pose when performing the kick and to distinguish it from the Karate and ITF versions. 

In "The Official Explanation of Official Taekwondo Poomsae II" by Kang, Ik Pil:

"양손은 가슴앞에 위치" = Both hands are in front of the chest




 


In the "Taekwondo Basic Technique Movement Guide" by Noh Kyung Jun, Park Su Ui and Lee Young Rim:



 


The Kukkiwon Textbook does not specify it in textform, but shows it in the pictures:


----------



## Acronym (Dec 6, 2020)

Metal said:


> Well, when it comes to Kibon Dongjak/Basic Movements and Poomsae in (Kukkiwon) Taekwondo, there is a rule of how to hold the arms.



That is one out of several possible contexts. And if that's the best you got, then TKD and Karate throw the thrusting side kick more or less the same...


----------



## Acronym (Dec 6, 2020)

KKW seems to kick with a different contact point than ITF. We don't turn over our foot that much.


----------



## Metal (Dec 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That is one out of several possible contexts. And if that's the best you got, then TKD and Karate throw the thrusting side kick more or less the same...



When performing a kick there's more to it than just the leg that's kicking. There's a basic/unified version of the technique and of course it can and must be adapted to the respective situation. However, when teaching and performing Poomsae, then one should teach and stick to the basic 'textbook' version. In Poomsae competition points will be deducted for any deviations. Regarding Poomsae and basic techniques in black belt tests, small derivations usually aren't a big issue.



Acronym said:


> KKW seems to kick with a different contact point than ITF. We don't turn over our foot that much.



As far as I remember, regarding the attacking 'tool' in the ITF Kibon Dongjak, there are different variants of the sidekick. One of them is with the ball of the foot, but another one is with the foot-sword, same as the Kukkiwon.

But that's actually somethings that needs to be adapted to the situation. When using a sidekick as a push kick in sparring one would use the sole of the foot, for extra range to a soft target the side thrusting kick with the ball of the foot is an option.

The 'turning' of the foot (with the toes facing a little bit downwards) distinguishes the (Kukkiwon) Taekwondo sidekick from the Karate and ITF versions visually, but it is also based on the rotating 'corkscrew' effect that you also see in Taekwondo punches.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It's not an Italian just because he made pizza... This was a Karateka with Karate terminology.


Let's try again. Clearly you missed the point.  We have a local middle eastern restaurant that bough a former Pizzeria . Chefs / cooks are Latino. They make middle eastern dishes and also Pizza in the original Pizza oven.   So, you are saying that Pizza is not  Italian?   Point being that "saying one person or country can claim a certain kick or punch is like saying one person or country discovered fire or invented the wheel."   I paraphrase - but do you know where that quote s from.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Let's try again. Clearly you missed the point.  We have a local middle eastern restaurant that bough a former Pizzeria . Chefs / cooks are Latino. They make middle eastern dishes and also Pizza in the original Pizza oven.   So, you are saying that Pizza is not  Italian?   Point being that "saying one person or country can claim a certain kick or punch is like saying one person or country discovered fire or invented the wheel."   I paraphrase - but do you know where that quote s from.



My point wasn't whether the kick itself was Karate or a Taekwondo but that it was not a TKDoin who exceuted it.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 6, 2020)

Metal said:


> The 'turning' of the foot (with the toes facing a little bit downwards) distinguishes the (Kukkiwon) Taekwondo sidekick from the Karate and ITF versions visually, but it is also based on the rotating 'corkscrew' effect that you also see in Taekwondo punches.



Yup.  Also turning over the shoulder more in KKw, creating more pivot and thus room for acceleration. There's more power potential in KKW mechanics for a lot of these techniques but ITF deliveries are very prestine and power is only part of the equation.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> KKW seems to kick with a different contact point than ITF. We don't turn over our foot that much.


No. A Side kick always uses the heel. It is shown in every example and used consistently in every school style of side kick I have ever seen; assuming it is being performed correctly. 
There are variations that use different parts of the foot but they usually go by a slightly different name as well.
The mechanics getting to the strike may be taught differently but the strike is definitely done with the heel.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 6, 2020)

I would also say that it's not "anti ITF" to turn the shoulder over more, in fact we may often go passed the textbook depending on the context.

But as far as textbook deliveries, ITF promotes cleaner recovery positions and torso placement wheras KKW has an emphasis on power.


----------



## Steve (Dec 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Let's try again. Clearly you missed the point.  We have a local middle eastern restaurant that bough a former Pizzeria . Chefs / cooks are Latino. They make middle eastern dishes and also Pizza in the original Pizza oven.   So, you are saying that Pizza is not  Italian?   Point being that "saying one person or country can claim a certain kick or punch is like saying one person or country discovered fire or invented the wheel."   I paraphrase - but do you know where that quote s from.


I really don't see how you can suggest that a pizza made in a middle eastern restaurant by latino chefs in america is italian.  The inspiration for it may be italian, but that pizza sure ain't.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 6, 2020)

Here's another difference between the two major Taekwondo.


Less pivot of the base foot in ITF for textbook dolyo chagi -=better form, less power


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Here's another difference between the two major Taekwondo.
> 
> 
> Less pivot of the base foot in ITF for textbook dolyo chagi -=better form, less power


Can you Not see that the kicker is standing Way off center from the target? There is no need for a lot of pivot. 
I have no idea what the video was intended for.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> My point wasn't whether the kick itself was Karate or a Taekwondo but that it was not a TKDoin who exceuted it.


And this matters why?


----------



## Bruce7 (Dec 6, 2020)

wab25 said:


> That is a Karate Kick. That is the kekomi version of yoko geri.
> It is not uncommon for common techniques to have different names in different arts.
> It is not uncommon for common techniques to be included in different arts.
> 
> If you want to get technical... yoko geri has been a part of the karate curriculum since before TKD was a thing. And TKDs roots go back to Shotokan Karate. Funakoshi was teaching yoko geri long before he ever taught yoko geri to General Choi.



TKDs roots go back to Shotokan Karate. Funakoshi was teaching yoko geri long before he ever taught yoko geri to General Choi.
I agree with your post. Bill Wallace (Karate) has a beautiful side kick.

IMO TKD puts more importance on the fully chamber side kick than other arts. So when see a fully chambered side kick we normal think TKD.


----------



## Buka (Dec 6, 2020)

Steve said:


> Two things.
> 
> First, a few have said it's not a 10 or implied it's not great.  I'm interested to hear some critique.  I mean, for the uneducated person like me, what's wrong with it?
> 
> Second, when I saw the title for the thread, I thought first of sidekick in the superhero sense, and thought this would be a video of someone cosplaying Robin or something.



Allow me to assist, if I may. 

Imagine someone posting an Americana, but with only one person being shown, doing it on air. I’m sure there would be a lot of comments of what was right or wrong, maybe what branch of teaching it came from, probably even ‘this should be wider or that should be whatever”.

You probably wouldn't look at it twice. I wouldn't either. 

It’s a sidekick. Cool. Nothing wrong with it.  Now do something with it.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 6, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> No. A Side kick always uses the heel. It is shown in every example and used consistently in every school style of side kick I have ever seen; assuming it is being performed correctly.
> There are variations that use different parts of the foot but they usually go by a slightly different name as well.
> The mechanics getting to the strike may be taught differently but the strike is definitely done with the heel.


Sir, I am not certain if your "Always uses the heel" is meant to  refer to "Always" in a particular system.   Karate Do Kyo Han references "Outside Edge of foot"   And the Chang Hon system uses approximately the rear third (closest to the heel) "Foot Sword"  edge of the foot.  In the Chang Hon system,  the Bottom of the Heel  (Called "Back Sole"  in the system) is no used . (As an aside the system uses the "Heel" to describe the Back of the heel used in reverse hook and reverse turning kicks. )


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 6, 2020)

Steve said:


> I really don't see how you can suggest that a pizza made in a middle eastern restaurant by latino chefs in america is italian.  The inspiration for it may be italian, but that pizza sure ain't.


Sir, not sure if your post is tongue in cheek.   Are you saying this because it is likely not what you would find in Italy? Perhaps so.     More accurately  you would have a Latin cook, in  a middle eastern restaurant making an "Italian American" Pizza.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, I am not certain if your "Always uses the heel" is meant to  refer to "Always" in a particular system.   Karate Do Kyo Han references "Outside Edge of foot"   And the Chang Hon system uses approximately the rear third (closest to the heel) "Foot Sword"  edge of the foot.  In the Chang Hon system,  the Bottom of the Heel  (Called "Back Sole"  in the system) is no used . (As an aside the system uses the "Heel" to describe the Back of the heel used in reverse hook and reverse turning kicks. )


Sir, I agree. Some of the 'Always' response was in regards to the individual posting. However I did mention there are different names for side kicks as you also mentioned but I did not include the use of different parts of the foot. I did not consider the back of the heel used in a hook kick. That was a good catch to mention.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But as far as textbook deliveries, ITF promotes cleaner recovery positions and torso placement wheras KKW has an emphasis on power.


IMO this depends on context.   Patterns are one context, sparring a second, and breaking a third.


----------



## Steve (Dec 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, not sure if your post is tongue in cheek.   Are you saying this because it is likely not what you would find in Italy? Perhaps so.     More accurately  you would have a Latin cook, in  a middle eastern restaurant making an "Italian American" Pizza.


It was intended to be a lighthearted way of making a real point which is that the pizza is not italian. I disagree with your fundamental premise.  It may still be a pizza, but it's no longer an italian pizza.  I don't even know how you could call it italian american. 

We have a place locally that serves sushi, but it's not japanese sushi by any stretch of the imagination.  It's in the same family of dishes, but any similarity to japanese sushi is superficial, at best.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 6, 2020)

Steve said:


> It was intended to be a lighthearted way of making a real point which is that the pizza is not italian. I disagree with your fundamental premise.  It may still be a pizza, but it's no longer an italian pizza.  I don't even know how you could call it italian american.
> 
> We have a place locally that serves sushi, but it's not japanese sushi by any stretch of the imagination.  It's in the same family of dishes, but any similarity to japanese sushi is superficial, at best.


Okay, but does your place sell oatmeal or raw fish? Sushi by any other name...
Why anyone wants to eat raw fish is beyond me. Vile, just vile.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> IMO this depends on context.   Patterns are one context, sparring a second, and breaking a third.



I don't know enough about breaking but it looks overlap with the other two. There doesn't look to be massive differences in mechanics


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 7, 2020)

Steve said:


> It may still be a pizza, but it's no longer an italian pizza.  I don't even know how you could call it italian american.
> 
> t.


Sir, I don't know where you are located, but there is a "Great Debate"   mostly by those who live in the respective regions.   Over which is better "New York" or "Chicago" Pizza  neither of which is quite like I found in Italy, so "Italian American"   was a term encompassing the variations on Italian food (and other ethnic foods i.e. "Mexican American" ) so if you have a better way of categorizing common American versions of   ethnic dishes, please let me know.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, I don't know where you are located, but there is a "Great Debate"   mostly by those who live in the respective regions.   Over which is better "New York" or "Chicago" Pizza  neither of which is quite like I found in Italy, so "Italian American"   was a term encompassing the variations on Italian food (and other ethnic foods i.e. "Mexican American" ) so if you have a better way of categorizing common American versions of   ethnic dishes, please let me know.


Just to clarify, Chicago "pizza" isn't actually pizza. it's a pie. It's not a debate of which is better, one of them just doesn't fit the term-it'd be like calling a grilled cheese sandwich pizza.


----------



## Steve (Dec 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, I don't know where you are located, but there is a "Great Debate"   mostly by those who live in the respective regions.   Over which is better "New York" or "Chicago" Pizza  neither of which is quite like I found in Italy, so "Italian American"   was a term encompassing the variations on Italian food (and other ethnic foods i.e. "Mexican American" ) so if you have a better way of categorizing common American versions of   ethnic dishes, please let me know.


First, I really don't know where this "sir" thing came from.  I would prefer you don't use that when you talk to me, if you don't mind. 

Second, regarding the Chicago vs New York pizza debate, the question is which one is the best American pizza, neither of which is Italian.  And it's really not a question, because the Chicago version is a pie... or maybe a casserole, if you're being generous. 

Think about it like this.  In America, we have a lot of labels that we use to categorize food.  The labels are often based on national origin (e.g., Italian or Chinese) but can also sometimes be a derivative or regional (e.g., Tex-Mex, Southern, or California Cuisine) or something else entirely (e.g., comfort food).   The key here is to recognize that these are nothing more than labels.  

Often, even when there is a national origin associated with the food, the actual dishes served barely resemble the inspiration.  Italian and Chinese restaurants are well known for this, meaning when you go into a Chinese restaurant, you're very likely getting food that is not authentic to China.  However, they aren't Italian or Chinese.  

Okay.  Stay with me here. Last point.  In America, we actually have a term that we use when a restaurant is getting closer to its roots: authentic.  When an American restaurant does things that are the same as their origin, we call that authentic food.  So, when an Italian restaurant actually serves a dish that is the same as in Italy, it could be called an authentic dish.  Still not Italian.  It's an American dish that is authentic.  This is even true when the origin is American.  You can make "authentic Cajun" food.  Or you can make Jambalya out of a box by Zattaran's, or you can fall somewhere in between.  While this would all be American food, but it wouldn't actually be Cajun food, though it may be an authentic representation.


----------



## Steve (Dec 7, 2020)

This might help.  When we use the term "pizza", are we speaking English or Italian?  What about sushi.  Am I suddenly speaking Japanese?  I don't think so.  I don't speak Japanese or Italian.  Words are symbols for things.  And in different languages, the same word can evoke very different things.  In extreme cases, the meanings can be completely different.  But even if it's a borrowed word, like sushi, the symbol stands for something different.  

And, in fact, the term "sushi" in English (and in particular in America), refers to something similar to what it means in Japan, but it's not the same.  The practical effect of this is that if I say to an American, "hey, let's get some sushi" and they have in mind an American sushi but I take them someplace authentically Japanese, they will probably be surprised, and may not like it at all.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 7, 2020)

Steve said:


> This might help.  When we use the term "pizza", are we speaking English or Italian?  What about sushi.  Am I suddenly speaking Japanese?  I don't think so.  I don't speak Japanese or Italian.  Words are symbols for things.  And in different languages, the same word can evoke very different things.  In extreme cases, the meanings can be completely different.  But even if it's a borrowed word, like sushi, the symbol stands for something different.
> 
> And, in fact, the term "sushi" in English (and in particular in America), refers to something similar to what it means in Japan, but it's not the same.  The practical effect of this is that if I say to an American, "hey, let's get some sushi" and they have in mind an American sushi but I take them someplace authentically Japanese, they will probably be surprised, and may not like it at all.


Again, it is raw fish. What does it matter if is has a fancy-ish name or if someone uses 'sushi' to describe raw fish?


----------



## Metal (Dec 7, 2020)

Are we already at the point where there are more posts about food than about sidekicks??? 

Btw, I'm German and I like pineapple on pizza. 

Anyway, it's interesting some people here like to go off topic, hijack threads or aks/answer Taekwondo questions with examples from/showing other martial arts.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

One thing I noticed with Karate, especially old school like Shotokan, is that they often bend their base foot like crazy when they kick which we don't do in TKD. It's bad for mobility and looks uglier


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 8, 2020)

Metal said:


> Are we already at the point where there are more posts about food than about sidekicks???



Food is more important than sidekicks.



> Btw, I'm German and I like pineapple on pizza.



That is blasphemy, and an affront to all that is good in the world.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 8, 2020)

Steve said:


> First, I really don't know where this "sir" thing came from.  I would prefer you don't use that when you talk to me, if you don't mind.
> 
> .


 The "Sir" thing comes from years of operating in a TKD environment that stressed "Courtesy"   as the first and most important Tenet of TK-D.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 8, 2020)

Steve said:


> This might help.  When we use the term "pizza", are we speaking English or Italian?  What about sushi.  Am I suddenly speaking Japanese?


Suffice it to say at this juncture we will agree to disagree.  IMO if an American and Frenchman are conversing in French in London, assuming the American's abilities with the French language are satisfactory,  they are both speaking French.   I will leave the great Pizza debate for another time.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> One thing I noticed with Karate, especially old school like Shotokan, is that they often bend their base foot like crazy when they kick which we don't do in TKD. It's bad for mobility and looks uglier


Did you mean Base / support leg?


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Did you mean Base / support leg?



Yes.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

[


----------



## Steve (Dec 8, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> The "Sir" thing comes from years of operating in a TKD environment that stressed "Courtesy"   as the first and most important Tenet of TK-D.


Sure that makes sense if you were consistent.   It seems like it's something you just started doing.  Anyway, if you don't mind, I'd prefer you not call me sir.  Thanks


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> The "Sir" thing comes from years of operating in a TKD environment that stressed "Courtesy"   as the first and most important Tenet of TK-D.



It can also mean that you are getting personal with someone in western culture. So it's probably better to leave it out


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 8, 2020)

Or simply it was the way you were raised. Everyone is still sir or ma'am here, regardless of age, etc... Asking someone Not to be respectful is some kind of weird.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 8, 2020)

Steve said:


> Sure that makes sense if you were consistent.   It seems like it's something you just started doing.  Anyway, if you don't mind, I'd prefer you not call me sir.  Thanks


I've seen him call many people on here sir in the past just FYI, it seems just how he types if he's addressing someone specific. I've noticed because he's the only one who ever does it.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I've seen him call many people on here sir in the past just FYI, it seems just how he types if he's addressing someone specific. I've noticed because he's the only one who ever does it.



I first thought it was just me.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

I told you guys that there's enough poor hip mechanics in Karate to last me a lifetime 





I am not a black belt in TaeKwonDo and this is me inactive. I don't even hold my hands like this normally, that's how rusty I am.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

Although that one might be a back kick, (still poor mechanics) 

Here's a side kick


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

Give me a month to get back in form and they will name a street after me in that Karate school. And I'm low on the totem poll in TKD.

That's the difference in emphasis!


----------



## wab25 (Dec 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> One thing I noticed with Karate, especially old school like Shotokan, is that they often bend their base foot like crazy when they kick which we don't do in TKD. It's bad for mobility and looks uglier


Are you saying that the knee in the support leg should be locked? Straight? If you don't like it bent... what is the proper position?


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Are you saying that the knee in the support leg should be locked? Straight? If you don't like it bent... what is the proper position?



It can be straight or slightly bent but not very bent.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It can be straight or slightly bent but not very bent.


Are you considering the video in post #1 to have a slightly or very bent knee? Same for the last two shotokan pictures... do you consider those knees to be bent too far?


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Are you considering the video in post #1 to have a slightly or very bent knee? Same for the last two shotokan pictures... do you consider those knees to be bent too far?



No I don't.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 8, 2020)

You have to consider the dynamics of the two kicks. First he is doing the kick very slow to show technique. Naturally balance is more difficult as the slower speed so he is finishing the kick with a Slightly bent knee to show form and aid in balance. When he does the kick at speed there is little to no bend in the standing leg. 
It still has much to do with the intent of the kick.


----------



## john_newman (Dec 8, 2020)

Clean Side Kick.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 8, 2020)

I see you guys are still  going at the side kick thing.


----------



## Steve (Dec 8, 2020)

Can I see an example of a good side kick?


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> You have to consider the dynamics of the two kicks. First he is doing the kick very slow to show technique. Naturally balance is more difficult as the slower speed so he is finishing the kick with a Slightly bent knee to show form and aid in balance. When he does the kick at speed there is little to no bend in the standing leg.
> It still has much to do with the intent of the kick.



Who are you talking about?


----------



## Metal (Dec 8, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Are you saying that the knee in the support leg should be locked? Straight? If you don't like it bent... what is the proper position?



For current Kukkiwon Taekwondo: straight

pre-ITF: bent

70s ITF:slightly bent

However, in the past there wasn't as much attention to detail and not as much unity regarding details.

I'm not sure how the current technical standard is in the 3 ITFs, but the Teul DVD from 2006 that I have shows the sidekicks with a straight supporting leg.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

Metal said:


> For current Kukkiwon Taekwondo: straight
> 
> pre-ITF: bent
> 
> ...



ITF is straight just like KKW. But it's not mandatory in the gradings.


----------



## Buka (Dec 8, 2020)

Steve said:


> Can I see an example of a good side kick?



Here you go, Steve...


----------



## Steve (Dec 8, 2020)

Buka said:


> Here you go, Steve...


Well, to my untrained eye, that looks pretty good.  Curious what others think.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

Steve said:


> Well, to my untrained eye, that looks pretty good.  Curious what others think.



He's an all-time great for sure.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 8, 2020)

Joe didn't use it as much in full contact, he became more of a boxer. He also switched to boxing later in his life even though he instructed kickboxing classes


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Who are you talking about?


Um, exactly what I said. Just go back and watch the video.

If you are asking about intent, I mean what do you want the kick to do? You cannot always throw or land the Joe Lewis side kick like shown in Buka's video, nor will you want to. Opportunities change and you have to change your strategy and kick to them. 
Sometimes you have to play chess and use the kick as more of a setup tool. This is going to change the anatomy of the kick somewhat. Most likely something you would not even notice in live action but rather something you may see in video.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 8, 2020)

Metal said:


> For current Kukkiwon Taekwondo: straight
> 
> pre-ITF: bent
> 
> 70s ITF:slightly bent


Thanks for the clarification. All the Shotokan guys I train with are very specific in that they want to see the knee bent in the supporting leg. So, when looking at Shotokan guys, if they have their leg bent, its likely that they are doing it that way for a reason. Its not because they are lazy, or don't know what they are doing. 

From a TKD perspective... what is the reason for the straight supporting leg?


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 8, 2020)

Metal said:


> For current Kukkiwon Taekwondo: straight
> 
> pre-ITF: bent
> 
> ...


To be clear you are making the straight leg statement for Poomase only, correct? There is no way the standing leg can or should Always be straight during sparring and such.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 9, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Thanks for the clarification. All the Shotokan guys I train with are very specific in that they want to see the knee bent in the supporting leg. So, when looking at Shotokan guys, if they have their leg bent, its likely that they are doing it that way for a reason. Its not because they are lazy, or don't know what they are doing.
> 
> From a TKD perspective... what is the reason for the straight supporting leg?



Straight supporting leg is purely aestethical. It is not straight in sparring


----------



## Acronym (Dec 9, 2020)

This is excessive knee bent IMO


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 9, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I've seen him call many people on here sir in the past just FYI, it seems just how he types if he's addressing someone specific..


Yes sir    exactly. If it is directed to the specific person's post then "Sir" or "Mam" would apply.   General comments / response - not so much.   Hosted Joe Lewis for a seminar and  said "Yes Sir"   he said "Do you see any stripes on my arm? Don't call me "Sir" - great guy.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 9, 2020)

Buka said:


> Here you go, Steve...


I have the VHS tape . NAPMA sold it before they were stopped for some copyright violation.   I like the "Grabbing the sleeve tactic" so long as it' legal.


----------



## Steve (Dec 9, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Yes sir    exactly. If it is directed to the specific person's post then "Sir" or "Mam" would apply.   General comments / response - not so much.   Hosted Joe Lewis for a seminar and  said "Yes Sir"   he said "Do you see any stripes on my arm? Don't call me "Sir" - great guy.


I appreciate the clarification. 

A little trivia, even if he did have stripes, you wouldn't call him sir.  The only time you'd ever call a guy 'sir' who had stripes on his arm is in basic training.  Sir and Ma'am are reserved for officers in the military.  Generally, you'd refer to enlisted personnel (people with stripes on their arms) by their rank: Airman, Seaman, Private, Sergeant, etc.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> This is excessive knee bent IMO


That may be excessive for TKD... but for Shotokan, he is doing it right. But, since, as you say, its "purely aestethical" then it shouldn't really matter.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 9, 2020)

[


wab25 said:


> That may be excessive for TKD... but for Shotokan, he is doing it right. But, since, as you say, its "purely aestethical" then it shouldn't really matter.



No I said it's purely aestethical keeping it straight.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No I said it's purely aestethical keeping it straight.


So keeping it straight is purely aestethical, but bending the knee is not purely aestethical??? If bending the knee is not purely aestethical, that would imply that keeping it straight would also not be aestethical.

What do you see is the issue with the bent knee?


----------



## Acronym (Dec 9, 2020)

wab25 said:


> So keeping it straight is purely aestethical, but bending the knee is not purely aestethical??? If bending the knee is not purely aestethical, that would imply that keeping it straight would also not be aestethical.
> 
> What do you see is the issue with the bent knee?



I said that very bent is bad.


----------



## Metal (Dec 9, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> To be clear you are making the straight leg statement for Poomase only, correct? There is no way the standing leg can or should Always be straight during sparring and such.



Yes, but I wouldn't call it "for Poomsae" but the 'basic performance' of a Sidekick. 

Everything we learn in "Kibon Dongjak", in the 'basic techniques', can and must be adapted to a particular situation. Just as we wouldn't spar in traditional stances or punch from the hip in sparring, the supporting leg doesn't need to be straight in sparring.




wab25 said:


> From a TKD perspective... what is the reason for the straight supporting leg?



If you ask some they may point out that "That's what the Poomsae key points of World Taekwondo say", if you ask others they may say "It looks better". 

While I agree with both I would add: The reason for the straight supporting leg is to make it look different from Karate. 

There are many ways of executing techniques and a lot of times there's no right or wrong. There's only right or wrong when a certain ruleset or technical standards get applied. And while we work hard on the perfection of certain techniques, we need standards to go by. And especially when it comes to Poomsae competition you need to standardize techniques. Otherwise it would be even harder to judge than it already is.

Plus it's part of the never-ending process of learning. When someone learns the sidekick there are other things to focus on first. Balance, flexibility, correct chambering, kicking in a straight line, hitting with the right part of the foot, foot positioning, turn of supporting leg/foot, turning on the ball of the foot, controlling the arms, control of force and speed. There are a lot of aspects to consider and the straight supporting leg is one of the less important ones I would say. When I saw the video of the sidekick in the video in the original post, there were other things that I noticed first. I didn't really pay attention on the supporting leg first.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I said that very bent is bad.


Why?

The video you posted to show excessive knee bend, would be considered correct knee bend in Shotokan. So, I am asking for you to elaborate on why that "excessive" bent knee is bad.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 9, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Why?
> 
> The video you posted to show excessive knee bend, would be considered correct knee bend in Shotokan. So, I am asking for you to elaborate on why that "excessive" bent knee is bad.



Because it undermines your mobility to strike consecutively instead of just once and then reset.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 9, 2020)

First off, I do appreciate your answers. They are very helpful in understanding where TKD people are coming from.


Metal said:


> And while we work hard on the perfection of certain techniques, we need standards to go by. And especially when it comes to Poomsae competition you need to standardize techniques. Otherwise it would be even harder to judge than it already is.


The idea of "having standards" is not only satisfied by have a straight leg. Shotokan (at least the organizations I have had contact with) has standardized the bent knee, in the supporting leg. They also have standards. I am more interested in why TKD choose straight over bent.

It is true that TKD has roots in Shotokan Karate. There are lots of things that TKD brought over from Shotokan. However, TKD has additional roots, other than Shotokan, other than Karate and other than Japanese. In my view, having roots in Shotokan does not mean TKD is any less than Shotokan. I look at it the other way around. Since it has roots in Shotokan, it could be considered an evolution of Shotokan. While I believe knowing the roots helps to understand the new system... knowing how and why things evolved in the new system is just as important. I am certain that there are bits in TKD that could certainly help my Shotokan.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Because it undermines your mobility to strike consecutively instead of just once and then reset.


You will have to elaborate on this for me. For all other athletic things I have done, you are taught to keep your knees bent, specifically to help with balance and mobility. I have had no issues throwing multiple kicks and striking combos with the knee bent stance, as shown in the "excessive knee bend" video. I can't yet comment on kicking with a straight leg... but all other athletic things I have tried, straight legs reduce mobility and make chaining together moves even more difficult. What am I missing regarding kicking?


----------



## Acronym (Dec 9, 2020)

wab25 said:


> You will have to elaborate on this for me. For all other athletic things I have done, you are taught to keep your knees bent, specifically to help with balance and mobility. I have had no issues throwing multiple kicks and striking combos with the knee bent stance, as shown in the "excessive knee bend" video. I can't yet comment on kicking with a straight leg... but all other athletic things I have tried, straight legs reduce mobility and make chaining together moves even more difficult. What am I missing regarding kicking?



Again, bent is good, very bent not so great. You are  limiting your mobility and options of attack when a slight bent is good enough. Even if you don't want to follow up with another kick, a very bent leg undermines mobility.

As to forms: it signals bad flexibility and is less aestethically pleasing.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 9, 2020)

You might have the ability to strike consecutively but not as smoothly compared to a slight bent. It won't flow as naturally and efficiently.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You might have the ability to strike consecutively but not as smoothly compared to a slight bent. It won't flow as naturally and efficiently.


Seems to flow quite well...





Even seems to be quite mobile and able to go other places besides just a kick...







Acronym said:


> a very bent leg undermines mobility.


You keep saying this... but you don't explain any further. If you are talking about a supporting knee that is at an angle of 90 degrees or less... then yes. Having the knee bent that much prevents natural movement. But, the example shown for excessive knee bend, is no where near that extreme. (its only a couple of degrees more than your slightly bent knee) I am asking for the why... not for you to repeat again the same thing. Explain the thing you are repeating please.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 9, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Seems to flow quite well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In clip 2,He is demonstrating two techniques in succession on a static target a la point fighting stop format. And he is stopping just like I said.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> In clip 2,He is demonstrating two techniques in succession on a static target a la point fighting stop format.


That takes away from the flow and mobility of his movement how?

Yes, he is stopping after the takedown, which he flowed into after the punch, which he flowed into after the kick...

You may not like the look of it... but his bent knee does not seem to hurt his flow or mobility.

Glad TKD never practices 2-3 techniques in succession on a static target a la point fighting stop format...


----------



## Acronym (Dec 9, 2020)

wab25 said:


> That takes away from the flow and mobility of his movement how?
> 
> 
> ...



The more you ground yourself, the more your gravity is lowered, and the longer it is to unground and lash out a technique. You also lose time to extend a body that is tightened by the bending.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 9, 2020)

I would like to think that you get off a couch faster half way sitting, rather than almost sitting or actually sitting.

This isn't rocket science


----------



## Metal (Dec 9, 2020)

wab25 said:


> [...]. I am more interested in why TKD choose straight over bent.
> 
> [..] I look at it the other way around. Since it has roots in Shotokan, it could be considered an evolution of Shotokan. While I believe knowing the roots helps to understand the new system... knowing how and why things evolved in the new system is just as important. I am certain that there are bits in TKD that could certainly help my Shotokan.





Acronym said:


> You might have the ability to strike consecutively but not as smoothly compared to a slight bent. It won't flow as naturally and efficiently.



My reply kinda mixes answers to both of the above posts...

In Kukkiwon/World Taekwondo Poomsae there aren't many consecutive kicks, but one is the 
거듭 옆 차기 Keodeup Yeop Chagi in Koyreo.






In this video (from the current World Taekwondo Online World Championships) the first of those two kicks is done with a bent knee of the supporting leg and the supporting leg is fully straightened at the end of the 2nd kick. With the majority of Taekwondo stances, the supporting leg is coming from a bent position. So I would say straightening the supporting leg is similar to straightening the kicking leg or the arm when doing a punch. At the final stage of executing a technique, we fully extend our leg or arm (at least make it look like that - without ruining the knee and elbow joints ). At the 'Focus point' (Karateka would call it 'Kime'), there's full tension and power. And I think this is why the supporting leg in sidekicks (but also front kicks) is supposed to be straight in Kukkiwon Taekwondo. A bent joint is associated with relaxation. In Taekwondo we always have a wide range of power and speed in a technique. We start/chamber relaxed and slow and end the technique with speed and power.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I would like to think that you get off a couch faster half way sitting, rather than almost sitting or actually sitting.
> 
> This isn't rocket science


Yet the guy you showed with "excessive knee bend" was no where bending his knee enough to be half sitting or almost sitting. You are treating 5 to 10 degrees more bend, than straight as if the guy were doing that Russian Dance where his is sitting on his heels....

In reality, the Shotokan guys in these videos all show bent supporting legs... similar to athletic stances used in all sports. However, one of my favorite kickers, Bill Wallace, kicks with a straight or nearly straight support leg. The truth is that both approaches will work... people have different reasons for their preferred approach.


----------



## wab25 (Dec 9, 2020)

Metal said:


> In this video (from the current World Taekwondo Online World Championships) the first of those two kicks is done with a bent knee of the supporting leg and the supporting leg is fully straightened at the end of the 2nd kick. With the majority of Taekwondo stances, the supporting leg is coming from a bent position. So I would say straightening the supporting leg is similar to straightening the kicking leg or the arm when doing a punch. At the final stage of executing a technique, we fully extend our leg or arm (at least make it look like that - without ruining the knee and elbow joints ). At the 'Focus point' (Karateka would call it 'Kime'), there's full tension and power. And I think this is why the supporting leg in sidekicks (but also front kicks) is supposed to be straight in Kukkiwon Taekwondo. A bent joint is associated with relaxation. In Taekwondo we always have a wide range of power and speed in a technique. We start/chamber relaxed and slow and end the technique with speed and power.


Thank you for the excellent explaination.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 9, 2020)

Buka said:


> Here you go, Steve...





JowGaWolf said:


> I think I'm too functional for this discussion.
> A great side kick is one that doesn't get grabbed and breaks a few ribs before it returns
> A good side kick is one that doesn't get grabbed but lands solid
> A bad side kick is one that puts you in more trouble than you were in before the side kick.


So based on my standards.  That's a great side kick = One that doesn't get grabbed and breaks a few ribs before it returns.  Can one really ask more from a side kick? lol


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 9, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Seems to flow quite well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


those were some really nice kicks


----------



## Buka (Dec 9, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> So based on my standards.  That's a great side kick = One that doesn't get grabbed and breaks a few ribs before it returns.  Can one really ask more from a side kick? lol



And he wasn't throwing that kick that hard, just fast. I know because I'm a fricking idiot. I once asked him if I could hold some kicking shields and have him side kick them as hard as he could. He said, "No, you don't want to do that." I said, "yes, I really do." That exchange was even repeated. But, no, I didn't listen.

I held three shields, and we had top of the line shields, had to with the people who came there. I had an inner tube shield sandwiched between two really thick shields.

When he kicked them, it was in a way that I had not seen him move before. And I actually had time to think, "This is really going to suck" as I was being propelled backwards. I, at least, was right about that, it really did suck. Both my feet were off the floor as I was going backwards. There was a wall behind me, way behind me. I broke two ribs hitting that damn wall.

The inner tube shield was a mistake, but if it wasn't there, I think the kick might have given me more than a couple broken ribs. I mean, it was fricken scary. 

Note to self, "Doubt your instructor at your own peril."


----------



## Bruce7 (Dec 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> This is excessive knee bent IMO



Nice Video


----------



## Bruce7 (Dec 9, 2020)

Metal said:


> My reply kinda mixes answers to both of the above posts...
> 
> In Kukkiwon/World Taekwondo Poomsae there aren't many consecutive kicks, but one is the
> 거듭 옆 차기 Keodeup Yeop Chagi in Koyreo.
> ...



I don't know if I agree with the front kick statement.
The hips move forward for more power and distance, if the leg is straight it would hurt your balance.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 9, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Yet the guy you showed with "excessive knee bend" was no where bending his knee enough to be half sitting or almost sitting. You are treating 5 to 10 degrees more bend, than straight as if the guy were doing that Russian Dance where his is sitting on his heels....
> 
> In reality, the Shotokan guys in these videos all show bent supporting legs... similar to athletic stances used in all sports. However, one of my favorite kickers, Bill Wallace, kicks with a straight or nearly straight support leg. The truth is that both approaches will work... people have different reasons for their preferred approach.



I gave an analogy. His fighting stance is for that matter half way sitting on a couch deep


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 10, 2020)

Buka said:


> I once asked him if I could hold some kicking shields and have him side kick them as hard as he could. He said, "No, you don't want to do that." I said, "yes, I really do." That exchange was even repeated. But, no, I didn't listen.


I run into people like this from time to time.  In situations like that, when someone says "No, you don't want to do that."  Believe them lol.  



Buka said:


> "Doubt your instructor at your own peril."


 It's easy to forget how strong some instructors are because they never really go more than 50% if that much.  I'm willing to be that most who know how to drive the power probably never go past 35%  - 40% unless it's with a person that they know can take the damage and protect themselves.  

So that kick was life changing huh?  lol  You'll be 100 years old and will still be telling that story. lol


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 11, 2020)

Steve said:


> I appreciate the clarification.
> 
> A little trivia, even if he did have stripes, you wouldn't call him sir.  The only time you'd ever call a guy 'sir' who had stripes on his arm is in basic training.  Sir and Ma'am are reserved for officers in the military.  Generally, you'd refer to enlisted personnel (people with stripes on their arms) by their rank: Airman, Seaman, Private, Sergeant, etc.


Thanks for the clarification. Seems I mis recalled. A post from a while back related him saying "Do you see any bars on my shoulder...."


----------



## Acronym (Dec 11, 2020)

GM Yun had a nice side kick back in the day.

 0:30


----------



## Buka (Dec 11, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I run into people like this from time to time.  In situations like that, when someone says "No, you don't want to do that."  Believe them lol.
> 
> It's easy to forget how strong some instructors are because they never really go more than 50% if that much.  I'm willing to be that most who know how to drive the power probably never go past 35%  - 40% unless it's with a person that they know can take the damage and protect themselves.
> 
> So that kick was life changing huh?  lol  You'll be 100 years old and will still be telling that story. lol



I wish it had been life changing, but I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Did the exact same thing with another instructor of mine years later. Same result.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 11, 2020)

Buka said:


> I wish it had been life changing, but I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed.
> 
> Did the exact same thing with another instructor of mine years later. Same result.


lol  I should have trained with you. I could sit back and just watch you get blasted lol.  You never learn huh? lol

Either that or you just want to feel the beating.


----------



## Buka (Dec 12, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> lol  I should have trained with you. I could sit back and just watch you get blasted lol.  You never learn huh? lol
> 
> Either that or you just want to feel the beating.



Ed Parker had a saying, “To hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived, to feel is to believe.”

So, ya, that’s why. (yeah, that’s the ticket. Sure it is)


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 12, 2020)

Buka said:


> And he wasn't throwing that kick that hard, just fast. I know because I'm a fricking idiot. I once asked him if I could hold some kicking shields and have him side kick them as hard as he could. He said, "No, you don't want to do that." I said, "yes, I really do." That exchange was even repeated. But, no, I didn't listen.
> 
> I held three shields, and we had top of the line shields, had to with the people who came there. I had an inner tube shield sandwiched between two really thick shields.
> 
> ...


My Kenpo teacher always said it was unnerving to look down the barrel at Joe Lewis.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 12, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It can be straight or slightly bent but not very bent.


Why?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 12, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Again, bent is good, very bent not so great. You are  limiting your mobility and options of attack when a slight bent is good enough. Even if you don't want to follow up with another kick, a very bent leg undermines mobility.
> 
> As to forms: it signals bad flexibility and is less aestethically pleasing.


What you refer to as "very bent" in that photo is less bent than some of the positions we use for kicks in NGA. We're not a very kicking-intensive art, but we're pretty focused on mobility. There are MANY valid criticisms of our kicks, but lack of mobility is not one of them. A knee bent at that angle doesn't inherengly inhibit movement, though it may inhibit certain types of movement (I'm thinking specifically of the bouncy movement I've seen some folks use in sparring, which seems like it would be easier to maintain with a less-bent leg). If you're not dependent upon those types of movement, that's not a material issue.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 12, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You might have the ability to strike consecutively but not as smoothly compared to a slight bent. It won't flow as naturally and efficiently.


How does the bend of the supporting leg inhibit the repeated strikes by the kicking leg?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 12, 2020)

Acronym said:


> The more you ground yourself, the more your gravity is lowered, and the longer it is to unground and lash out a technique. You also lose time to extend a body that is tightened by the bending.


I'm not sure any of that is true. You don't have to "unground" to deliver a kick. There are folks who kick from very deep stances, and they kick from within those stances, rather than having to come out of them to kick.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 12, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I would like to think that you get off a couch faster half way sitting, rather than almost sitting or actually sitting.
> 
> This isn't rocket science


And getting off a couch has very little in common with kicking. I think you're just arguing a point without real knowledge of the side you're arguing against.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 12, 2020)

Buka said:


> And he wasn't throwing that kick that hard, just fast. I know because I'm a fricking idiot. I once asked him if I could hold some kicking shields and have him side kick them as hard as he could. He said, "No, you don't want to do that." I said, "yes, I really do." That exchange was even repeated. But, no, I didn't listen.
> 
> I held three shields, and we had top of the line shields, had to with the people who came there. I had an inner tube shield sandwiched between two really thick shields.
> 
> ...


You were that guy, eh.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 12, 2020)

Buka said:


> I wish it had been life changing, but I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed.
> 
> Did the exact same thing with another instructor of mine years later. Same result.


Still that guy.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 12, 2020)

On day when you are 80 years old, you may still be able to throw a high front kick, but you may not be able to throw a high side kick. The side kick just doesn't stay with you as nice as your front kick during your old age.

I believe it has to do with the human joint structure. The side way split is much harder than the forward backward split.

Side way split:







Forward and backward split:


----------



## Acronym (Dec 13, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> And getting off a couch has very little in common with kicking. I think you're just arguing a point without real knowledge of the side you're arguing against.



It's analogous to the body configuration before lift off


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 13, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It's analogous to the body configuration before lift off


That'd be more analogous to the stance before the kick than the supporting leg during the kick. If you argued it's harder to kick TKD style from a deep stance, that'd be different.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 13, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That'd be more analogous to the stance before the kick than the supporting leg during the kick. If you argued it's harder to kick TKD style from a deep stance, that'd be different.



It applies to both


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 13, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It applies to both


How so? How does a bent supporting leg inhibit the kick, if it needn't move any further? You keep saying it is matters, but not how, other than some vague mention of mobility and repeated kicks.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 13, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> How so? How does a bent supporting leg inhibit the kick, if it needn't move any further? You keep saying it is matters, but not how, other than some vague mention of mobility and repeated kicks.



We were talking about both fighting stance and stance during kick.  Unneccesary bent leg during kicking phase does impact mobility moving forward, it does not neccesarily make you slower though. Having a very deep fighting stance to kick from however will make the travel path longer


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 13, 2020)

Acronym said:


> We were talking about both fighting stance and stance during kick.  Unneccesary bent leg during kicking phase does impact mobility moving forward, it does not neccesarily make you slower though. Having a very deep fighting stance to kick from however will make the travel path longer


Those are two different things. One is part of the kick, the other isn't, so I'm not sure how we got into that side bit. As with most things related to stance, there are advantages and disadvantages to a lower fighting stance. As for the bent leg during the kick, you've made that statement several times, without suggesting how a bent leg during a kick alters forward mobility. You're standing with all your weight on that leg, bent or no.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 13, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Having a very deep fighting stance to kick from however will make the travel path longer


This is not true. What increases the travel path is the angle of the kick and not the bending of the standing leg. You can literally draw a circle inside of a square and see that it the distance to the corners are a longer distance.  So when you are doing stationary side kicks to the head, it takes longer to reach then the side kick to the mid section. 

Bent knees are required for mobility.  The more the knees are bent the more you'll be able to push off and the better your mobility will be.  I spar from a low stance all the time and I have great fighting mobility. 

You can see in the video for functional sidekicks.  





You can't compare what looks good with what is functional.  If all you care about is what looks good then you can just stay on that path.  But don't assume that because it looks good that it is also functional.  

Here is the problem. 
1.  You only have a limited definition of how a side kick must be done.
2. The way that you define the side kick limits what is possible
3. There are other ways to do a side kick and you just have to accept that in order to prevent making statements like what you made above, which represents a narrow scope.

If you truly have a great side kick then you should be able to launch that side kick from a variety of stance levels.   In terms of "very deep fighting stance"  I'm not sure what you consider deep,  but I doubt it's the same definition for me.  It theory that deep stances are used to deal with grappling attempts.  Basically you are taking a lower stance to keep from having someone get under you. If you understand stances like that then the answer is simple.  A deep stance isn't used for kicking, that's not it's primary function.

Is it possible to do a side kick from a deep stance?  Yes.  but that goes back to how you define side kick.  All of my side kicks turn my hip over.  This allows me to side kick from different stance heights.   Do I see a need to do a side kick from a deep stance.  Not really because it takes longer to set the kick up.  But if I was given the opportunity to do one, I would probably take it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 13, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Those are two different things. One is part of the kick, the other isn't, so I'm not sure how we got into that side bit. As with most things related to stance, there are advantages and disadvantages to a lower fighting stance. As for the bent leg during the kick, you've made that statement several times, without suggesting how a bent leg during a kick alters forward mobility. You're standing with all your weight on that leg, bent or no.


The reason it's not making sense is because he's thinking of a stationary side kick where you just stand in one place and kick.  While that looks nice, it's not functionally realistic as people who are using side kicks in application are often moving around.

Edit:  It also doesn't take into account that there is more than one way to do a side kick


----------



## Buka (Dec 13, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> My Kenpo teacher always said it was unnerving to look down the barrel at Joe Lewis.



It was sometimes, yes. But he was actually much nicer than the bad boy persona most made him out to be. He was very careful teaching classes, seminars, sparring or just messing around. But one time....

He's down my gym, don't remember if it was a seminar or a drop in, but we're on a break standing outside my office. We were facing each other, talking. I asked him about pain compliance techniques. He told me the problem with them is they don't usually work in the heat of battle, and you can't get them on in the heat of battle in the first place. He then said, "most of them."

Yeah, like I'm going to let that statement just hang there.

So I said something...

Joe was incredibly fast twitch. It was always like a light switch, zero to whatever in a click. Just like this time.

I never saw him move, he just grabbed both sides of my head with his hands, yanked me and grabbed me by the jaw....with his teeth. Yup, a bite. That he HELD.

About an inch  from the tip of my chin, on the right. He called it a mandible lock or something like that. Said there's a nerve there that fingers are too thick to get to. Your front teeth, however, are a different story.

The only way I can describe what it feels like, is electrical. Honest to God it feels like an electric shock. Makes you stand up on your toes, too. Your body just goes that way, trying to ease it, I guess.

Then, through gritted teeth he said, "it keeps your hands free." Then we walked me out the door, easily opening it and just walking me, on my tip toes, outside. Freakiest feeling I ever had at the time. Didn't break the skin, didn't have to.

And, yes, I know all about "I ain't putting anybody's skin in my mouth". Can't say I blame anybody for that thought.

But this was a long time ago. We worked it  a lot. Throw on the bite and grab their hands or arms, throw on the bite and grab their belt with one hand, their ear with the other, or their crotch and throat, or both ears, we worked it every which way. And just like everything else, some liked it one way and some liked it another.

But, man, that first time, yeah, buddy, it was looking down the barrel alright.....and  then hearing CLICK.

EDIT. We did it a zillion times, and nobody in the dojo ever broke the skin, not once. Didn't have to.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 13, 2020)

Buka said:


> It was sometimes, yes. But he was actually much nicer than the bad boy persona most made him out to be. He was very careful teaching classes, seminars, sparring or just messing around. But one time....
> 
> He's down my gym, don't remember if it was a seminar or a drop in, but we're on a break standing outside my office. We were facing each other, talking. I asked him about pain compliance techniques. He told me the problem with them is they don't usually work in the heat of battle, and you can't get them on in the heat of battle in the first place. He then said, "most of them."
> 
> ...


Very interesting info there.  And yes, my teacher never had a bad thing to say about Joe as a person.

I think his meaning was, getting ready to spar with Joe, he always knew it was gonna he one hell of a ride.  Every time.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 13, 2020)

Buka said:


> It was sometimes, yes. But he was actually much nicer than the bad boy persona most made him out to be. He was very careful teaching classes, seminars, sparring or just messing around. .



Went to a couple of his seminars - hosted one.   Always a pleasure. On one occasion he asked for a volunteer to punch him fill force   I did. He gave me a couple of tries.   I could feel the knuckles dig in.   All he did was say "If I am sore tomorrow I will know why."


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 13, 2020)




----------



## Acronym (Dec 14, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Went to a couple of his seminars - hosted one.   Always a pleasure. On one occasion he asked for a volunteer to punch him fill force   I did. He gave me a couple of tries.   I could feel the knuckles dig in.   All he did was say "If I am sore tomorrow I will know why."



What did you hit him with?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 14, 2020)

Acronym said:


> What did you hit him with?


Reverse punch .   Same technique I used to break 4 standard 1 x 12 boards.


----------



## Buka (Dec 15, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Went to a couple of his seminars - hosted one.   Always a pleasure. On one occasion he asked for a volunteer to punch him fill force   I did. He gave me a couple of tries.   I could feel the knuckles dig in.   All he did was say "If I am sore tomorrow I will know why."



I love that story. And loved that you volunteered!


----------



## Buka (Dec 15, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Very interesting info there.  And yes, my teacher never had a bad thing to say about Joe as a person.
> 
> I think his meaning was, getting ready to spar with Joe, he always knew it was gonna he one hell of a ride.  Every time.



It was a hell of a ride. 

And as all of us age, we all lose people, that's life. But, man, I miss him.

When he was in the hospital he reached out for old photos, everyone sent them to him. I hope they made him smile.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 15, 2020)

Correct me if I'm wrong guys but Joe Lewis lost due to the new kick rule implementation (6-8 kicks per round) in the decision losses he had? From what people tell me, he fell in love with boxing and didn't care to kick enough, which hurt him on the scorecards.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 16, 2020)

Buka said:


> I love that story. And loved that you volunteered!


I was "That Guy"    I know smart people don't volunteer when asked by the instructor at some seminars but I always had a great experience,


----------



## paitingman (Dec 16, 2020)

Buka said:


> It was sometimes, yes. But he was actually much nicer than the bad boy persona most made him out to be. He was very careful teaching classes, seminars, sparring or just messing around. But one time....
> 
> He's down my gym, don't remember if it was a seminar or a drop in, but we're on a break standing outside my office. We were facing each other, talking. I asked him about pain compliance techniques. He told me the problem with them is they don't usually work in the heat of battle, and you can't get them on in the heat of battle in the first place. He then said, "most of them."
> 
> ...


You wouldn't happen to have a book on way, would you? 
It would be on the top of my Christmas list lol

I never tire of gym stories and martial anecdotes

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)




----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


>


Did you have a comment about that kick?


----------



## Buka (Dec 17, 2020)

paitingman said:


> You wouldn't happen to have a book on way, would you?
> It would be on the top of my Christmas list lol
> 
> I never tire of gym stories and martial anecdotes
> ...



Thanks, bro. Always meant to write one. Not that anyone would read it. I planned to call it “Confessions of a Dojo Rat.” Never got around to it, never seemed to have the time.

Have plenty of time now. But, when the pandemic came, I had just started writing a screenplay. Had written some twenty years ago, but the format has changed since then, which is a big deal. (Like major rules changes in MA competitions would be if you just walked into one, blind) 

Spent a few months learning the nuances of the new format. Since then, been writing four to six hours a day, sometimes more, pretty much every day. Take three or four days off every month for burn out. That, and so you don’t go completely crazy. Writing a Romantic Comedy, The Taste of a Kiss. Coming out pretty good.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Dec 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Did you have a comment about that kick?


I've got one.  Sort of looks like a feint front kick (or targeting the knee to disrupt) then flipped into a roundhouse.  IMO, the knee position and movement (always key in any kick) shown is not condusive to a good side thrust kick.  To my sense, it should be more linear with the kicking foot chambered at, or close to, the supporting leg's knee.  The kicking foot should then take a straight trajectory to the target and back.

A potential problem with the rear leg side kick is when pivoting the body, the kicking leg may have a tendency to rotate along with the body, giving it a circular arc, which appears to be shown in the video clip.  IMO, the kicking foot (and knee) should travel in a straight line during the entire technique.  In this way, it is similar to a thrust punch with the fist and elbow in line, providing maximum power and support structure.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Did you have a comment about that kick?


There is quite a lot wrong with that kick. The most prominent is how the kicking leg 'swings' up into the chamber. I often describe is as backwards circular motion (if that is even a thing). This motion makes it very easy to jam the kick and render it useless, often putting the kicker in a bad position. 
There are other things to critique but after seeing the initial motion/chamber the rest of it is moot.


----------



## Acronym (Jan 7, 2021)

Whang has some spazzy hands but he has the best side kick on youtube in terms of hip engagement (as with all his techniques).

He was had home training and then attended gradings, so form wasn't as sharp.

11:15


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 7, 2021)

Acronym said:


> Whang has some spazzy hands but he has the best side kick on youtube in terms of hip engagement (as with all his techniques).
> 
> He was had home training and then attended gradings, so form wasn't as sharp.
> 
> 11:15


Very nice kicks. I do not agree with the arm motion on the roundhouse kicks. Is that how your school teaches them?


----------



## Acronym (Jan 7, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Very nice kicks. I do not agree with the arm motion on the roundhouse kicks. Is that how your school teaches them?



My school did not teach anything about arm motions which is strange. But they are usually better from people who train formally.

I don't have the best arm motions in the world but they are more still than his. Wish I had his hips though


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 7, 2021)

Acronym said:


> My school did not teach anything about arm motions which is strange. But they are usually better from people who train formally.
> 
> I don't have the best arm motions in the world but they are more still than his. Wish I had his hips though


The motion at speed seems to cancel out some of the kicking energy. If you notice, when he is doing the kick slow he 'double clutches' the arm on the kicking side to.


----------



## Acronym (Jan 7, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> The motion at speed seems to cancel out some of the kicking energy. If you notice, when he is doing the kick slow he 'double clutches' the arm on the kicking side to.



His arm motions are particularly bad during the kick travel on some of them, which is very strange.  Really spazzy. Then some kicks they are more or less ok.

I do notice balance issues cropping up here and there also when he does turning around kicks.

But he's still a hero of mine.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jan 7, 2021)

Acronym said:


> Whang has some spazzy hands but he has the best side kick on youtube in terms of hip engagement (as with all his techniques).
> 
> He was had home training and then attended gradings, so form wasn't as sharp.
> 
> 11:15



His hips do telleth the truth!


----------

