# Push hands and Chi Sao



## yipman_sifu (Apr 9, 2006)

Upon reading some articles on Tai Chi, I passed across the pushing hands training. I recognized the similarities it contained with respect to the Wing Chun Chi Sao training. The Chi Sao term is meant by the sticking arms, it is used for precise counter attacks and feel force techniques. I mean that it is like a tool for fighting effeciently, it is not a fighting technique by itself.

I would like to know about the pushing hands techniques with respect to Chi Sao, it is really for the same purpose or it is something else?.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 9, 2006)

Simialar yes, same no.

more later, must go watch daughter now.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 9, 2006)

Now that I have said similar yes, same no, I have to say I am not entirely sure of that, but that is my impression. I do not do Chi Sau so I cannot make a comparison.

Push hands from a Yang style perspective starts with stationary one hand, goes to stationary 2 hand and then goes to moving push hands, three step and four corner and freestyle 

I am sure some will disagree, but this is my explanation as it was taught to me. This is also the short simple version

The basic premise is to sense your opponent force while not allowing him/her to sense your. You stay centered and relaxed in order to achieve this. 

Once you sense your opponents force you can redirect it to throw them off balance, absorb that force and redirect it back to them and/or use jing to hit them.  You also are trying to up root your opponent using the same principal. 

Also you can involve your legs in this process such as adding pressure to your opponents knee where applicable. Step behind or in front in combination with redirection of force to basically trip your opponent. 

And then there are times you can strike; punch or kick and you can also use Qin Na (joint locking). But none of it is suppose to be done by using muscular force. You re suppose to use your mind to direct the energy to achieve the movement.

Basically you wait for the opening and/or the proper direction of force and then use what is needed. However you can also lead your opponent to a point where they can be of balanced (up rooted).

I have done push hands that is very fast and covers an entire room, so it can move a lot as well.

There are also Tai Chi for health practitioners that are now using push hands to help them achieve their goals. I am not one of these practitioners.


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## Wing Chun Dummy (Apr 9, 2006)

i think chi sao is no more pushing hands than pulling hands


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 9, 2006)

Wing Chun Dummy said:
			
		

> i think chi sao is no more pushing hands than pulling hands


 
Well it is sticky hands wheather it is a push or a pull doesn't matter as long as you go with your sences.


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 9, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Now that I have said similar yes, same no, I have to say I am not entirely sure of that, but that is my impression. I do not do Chi Sau so I cannot make a comparison.
> 
> Push hands from a Yang style perspective starts with stationary one hand, goes to stationary 2 hand and then goes to moving push hands, three step and four corner and freestyle
> 
> ...


 
You mentioned something concerned by mind boxing idea to control energy. In Chi Sao, using feeling force is the most important thing. rather than using the brain thinking part, we use the brain nerves to feel the force and use it against the opponent himself with our own to produce a very powerful force.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 9, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> You mentioned something concerned by mind boxing idea to control energy. In Chi Sao, using feeling force is the most important thing. rather than using the brain thinking part, we use the brain nerves to feel the force and use it against the opponent himself with our own to produce a very powerful force.


 
Similar premise, different terminology. 

We sense the opponent but how the force is applied may be different. Let me just say we are supposed to stay relaxed while applying the force and avoid muscle tension. 

I am not sure how Chi Sau works so I do not know if relaxation is a big part of it or not.


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 9, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Similar premise, different terminology.
> 
> We sense the opponent but how the force is applied may be different. Let me just say we are supposed to stay relaxed while applying the force and avoid muscle tension.
> 
> I am not sure how Chi Sau works so I do not know if relaxation is a big part of it or not.


 
Wing Chun is all relaxing in all its forms and drills. It is a soft system of combat. We never use brutal strength or muscle tensions. In Wing chun, your oppoonent force can be used against him, so the bigger and stronger your opponent is in size, the more force can be used to defeat him.

Usually when you reach a very high skill in Wing Chun, you will let your oppoonent guides you to his defeat. It is like fighting an invincible fighter which you cannot hurt him while he just responds to your attacks with relaxed fatal blows to finish any situation in the simplist way.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 10, 2006)

Sounds similar to push hands.

Question, where do you focus your energy prior to releasing it at your opponent?

Tai Chi focuses at the Dan Tian, but you can generate force from the ground (your root) to your waist where it is directed by the spine to where you want it to go. This is why relaxation so important in Tai Chi for martial arts. Any tension can hinder that flow and reduce your power. 

And if you are able to do this the power that is produced, as you also said of Wing Chun, is very powerful, this is fajing. You are relaxed, before, during and after the release of that energy.


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 10, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Sounds similar to push hands.
> 
> Question, where do you focus your energy prior to releasing it at your opponent?
> 
> ...


 
Let me put it this way. Wing Chun power comes from the knees tensions. Wheather you will be moving or on a starting phase. There must be the knee tension in order to move or generate power with balanced manner. 

Regarding attacks. The punch comes from elbow extentions. That's why you can perform a punch just from an inch to anything. I mean that power in Wing Chun will always be from extensions and contractions. If you perfrom a Bong Sau to an attack and you felt the power pushing towards you. Your elbow will tell your sences to turn and counter attack.

At later stages. a Wing Chun trainer will be able to generate power using fingers thrusts. As a conclusion, Wing Chun uses the whole body to generate power.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 10, 2006)

Thank You this has been very informative.

Up until the last description I was beginning to believe Wing Chun could be classified as a Soft CMA such as Tai Chi, Bagua and Liu he ba fa. 

If it were not for the power coming form knee tension it could almost be classified as a Hard/soft style such as Xingyquan and white crane based on the relaxation before the strike. Of course I am assuming here that at the moment of striking there is muscle tension. 

I have always classified Wing Chun as a CMA hard style. I must also say I have always been impressed by Wing Chun and have wondered about Chi sau as compared to Push hands. I suspected that there were similarities and there obviously are based on your description. 

The differences that I have noticed, and I could be very wrong in my observation since I have not done Chi Sau, it appears that Chi Sau seems to be more focused on the strike and tends to take a more upright stance.

Where push hands seems to be more focused on redirection and tends to be a slightly lower stance. 

However push hands can take a higher stance as I imagine Chi Sau could go lower.


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 11, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Thank You this has been very informative.
> 
> Up until the last description I was beginning to believe Wing Chun could be classified as a Soft CMA such as Tai Chi, Bagua and Liu he ba fa.
> 
> ...


 
You know that Taichi is a soft style due to the reason that it is used for meditation, health, and then self-defence. While Wing Chun is a self-defence in the first place. It is a soft system of fighting in the feeling section, while in the begining, you must learn the most important thing is to attack in a relaxed manner until you reach the target then hit HARD. The rule says that the more relaxed you are, the faster you are, the less energy is consumed during transferring punch power to a certain body, I mean that you must deliver the punch power to the maximum extent.
Hope that you got my point.


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## pete (Apr 11, 2006)

Xue Sheng,  i must say that your continuing struggle to categorize arts exclusinvely as hard and soft will limit your depth of understanding of these arts.

 tai chi is about the balance of complimentary opposites, yin and yang, therefore where there is hard somewhere else there must be soft.  this can be within your actions, or in response to your opponent.

bagua, also, is neither exclusively hard or soft, but based on change.  therefore, knowing how to change (or change your opponent) from hard to soft, or soft to hard.

 we've been through this before on another thread, but since you seem to post your limited views as fact, so often, i felt that its repeating was warranted.  you are a fairly intelligent writer and i fear that some readers may accept your statements at face value... 

train hard, listen well, and keep learning....

pete


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2006)

pete said:
			
		

> Xue Sheng, i must say that your continuing struggle to categorize arts exclusinvely as hard and soft will limit your depth of understanding of these arts.
> 
> tai chi is about the balance of complimentary opposites, yin and yang, therefore where there is hard somewhere else there must be soft. this can be within your actions, or in response to your opponent.
> 
> ...


 
I am not trying to categorize anything. It is the historical CMA view of things.

And you are right tai chi is a balance of yin and yang. And the best description of a Tail Chi martial artist I have heard refers to cotton covered steal. 

And, I have been through this before, when I say soft I do not mean a pillow and when I say hard I do not mean a stone. It has to do with how you get the energy from point A to point B and how much muscle tension is used, that is it. 

It has to do with how Qi is used and this is how the Chinese have categorized these martial arts for  longer than the United States has been a country. I am sorry if it does not fit your view, but it is the CMA view of Chinese martial arts. This has been the view of every single Chinese martial art from China, Taiwan and Hong Kong that I have studied with for the last 15 years. If you want to argue with someone about it argue with Yang Jwing ming and Chen Zhenglie.

So this is not my category.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Hope that you got my point.


 
Yes I did


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## pete (Apr 11, 2006)

first:



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Up until the last description I was beginning to believe Wing Chun could be classified as a Soft CMA such as Tai Chi, Bagua and Liu he ba fa.


 
then:



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I am not trying to categorize anything. It is the historical CMA view of things.


 
seems contradictory...



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> i am sorry if it does not fit your view, but it is the CMA view of Chinese martial arts. This has been the view of every single Chinese martial art from China, Taiwan and Hong Kong that I have studied with for the last 15 years. If you want to argue with someone about it argue with Yang Jwing ming and Chen Zhenglie.
> 
> So this is not my category.


 
again, it seems you are reading a lot of information and trying to make sense of it without proper guidance.  years of practice means nothing.  i've been playing guitar for 25 years and i still suck... rather than telling me how many years, tell me how many hours.  and rather than name dropping, tell me how much time you've trained under these gentleman and to what level of intensity.

i am not trying to argue with you, just to have you look at your information in a different way.  i'll be seeing dr yang in 2 weeks, and you can bet money i will not be arguing with him either!

pete.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2006)

pete said:
			
		

> first:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
(sigh)

Sorry, the inference that I "suck" tells me that any further conversation with you would be pointless and this discussion is over. I know what I know and what is, is

If you wish to know my training back ground, it has been posted before.

Good luck with Dr Yang you can learn a lot from him.

Believe what you will

Have a nice day.


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## pete (Apr 11, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Sorry, the inference that I "suck" tells me that any further conversation with you would be pointless and this discussion is over.


  sorry you feel that way.  i do not know you, but only your words, so any such inference would be rediculous... however, my point is that you may or may not be adept at tai chi regardless of how many years you've been reading about it.

somehow i doubt you'll be able to resist a response though...



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I know what I know and what is, is


kinda says it all... one doesn't know what one doesn't know.

good day.
pete


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