# Interesting quotes, any comments?



## Doc (Oct 10, 2002)

Taken from the old CKF (Chinese Kenpo Federation) web site discussions and seminars:

*Huk Planas:* (At a seminar last month)

Quote:All American Kenpo is, *is the study of Motion."* End Quote

*Sean Kelly:* 

If you read my bio in "THE JOURNEY,"  I specifically mention how we are the only profession that does not have a standardization of amateur vs. professional.  In boxing, an amateur is required to have a certain number of fights under his belt before he can be considered a for his professional debut.  Another way of putting this would be, when you start the sport of baseball, you have little league, minor league, then finally the major league (professional status).  

However, in the martial arts, as soon as students obtain the level of black belt, they qualify themselves as professional vs. amateur, business owners, and qualified instructor/teachers.  In point of fact, however, we know that obtaining a black belt is like graduating high school-- *one must further one's education by going on to "college." * Business practice is a separate field of expertise in and of itself.  

*Ed Parker made the point at many of my seminars that there were many different levels of people holding black belts.*  Since his art was actually based on a science, he made the comment that there were black belts who were good salesmen of motion (could sell the - - commercial - - art), mechanics of motion (could fix it), and, finally an engineer of motion (could both sell it and fix it).  To summarize, the future of the art has a high percentage of people who are wearing 3rd degree, 4th degree and higher rank, who should be wearing 3rd and 4th degree "amateur" black belts.  Do we have 5th degree amateurs ((salesman)) out there?  Yes we do. 


*Martin Wheeler:*

I think this was part of the brilliance of the founder Ed Parker that he created *a conceptually based* fighting system rather than a purely technique based system (even though it appears to be technique based on the surface). .......


Sounds a bit like something I said. At least it's something to discuss for some.
:asian:


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## kenpo_cory (Oct 10, 2002)

Interesting, I particularly like Mr. Sean Kelly's quote that obtaining a black belt is like graduating high school-- one must further one's education by going on to "college."


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## kenmpoka (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *Taken from the old CKF (Chinese Kenpo Federation) web site discussions and seminars:
> 
> ...



Hey Doc,

All true, unfortunetely with titles such as Head Instructor (at 3rd black), where you are merely a humble instructor in the traditional arts and so on, and without age requirement for such titles and above, one's mouth and head has tendencies to be bigger than their foot!!!

Good to see you back.

:asian:


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## Doc (Oct 11, 2002)

You know I was going to sneek up on you last week, but there just doesn't seem to be enough time in the day. Especially since thee's no freeway in your neck of the woods. I'm in my busy season right now, and finishing up on the Maganificent Seven DVD.

Hope to see you soon.

Respects


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## Zoran (Oct 11, 2002)

It's too bad CKFOnline is gone. I will miss that site. 



> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *Martin Wheeler:*
> 
> ...



Interesting quote there. I *sometimes* find *some* AK practioners get so wrapped up in the techniques, rules, principles, and etc of EPAK, that they lose focus of what it's about. Logical and practical self defense. Sort of the lose the forest in the trees concept.


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## kenmpoka (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *You know I was going to sneek up on you last week, but there just doesn't seem to be enough time in the day. Especially since thee's no freeway in your neck of the woods. I'm in my busy season right now, and finishing up on the Maganificent Seven DVD.
> 
> ...


Hey Doc,

Just make sure not sneak up from the right flank.(LOL)
Anytime Doc, would be an honor to have you visit. Please check my web site for Hermosa schedule, since I am teaching out of three locations these days. Btw, I am not too far from Erickson's(sp?) studio.

Respectfully,

 :asian:


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## cdhall (Oct 11, 2002)

I noticed their site was down.
What happened to it?

Mr. Kelley makes some good points.

If you are going to run a school you really need 4 things (at least):
1. Martial Skill, including some history etc and this is what most people get from training
2. Business training which I think is how NAPMA and other companies found their niche
3. The ability to teach, which again is something that most Kenpo instructors have by the time they reach 1st Degree and certainly 4th/5th in EPAK
4. Some credibility to draw clients.  In the past this was often Rank, but this is no longer sufficient with inflation etc.  A good tournament reputation is often used like Billy Blanks traded on for example, but again, organizations that offer certifications for fitness levels and so on like the Cooper Institute in Dallas etc are carving a niche here I think.

So I would have to largely agree with Mr. Kelley that running a school is something a lot of people can jump into when they are not adequately prepared.  I think this was the thrust of his point. 

As far as amateur vs pro, this doesn't quite work for me because most of these situations relate strictly to athletes.  You are an amateur athlete and then with practice you are a pro athlete.  Most athletes play a sport for example as an amateur, and then play better and get paid as a pro.  

With a studio owner you have someone who goes from amateur fighter perhaps, to independent businessman.  It is not the same path.

Most pro athletes have managers and trainers etc and only worry about playing their sport so this analogy does not work well for me.

But if you look at as "How do you get from amateur athlete to sucessful businessman" then there is a gulf there and it is not always well-provided for, or maybe it is not even provided for strictly by training in proficiency in the Art.

I was speaking with a Krav Maga person recently and he pointed out that just because you have a Black Belt doesn' t mean you can go out and open a studio.  You have to go on and get certified for that specifically, so those guys see this "athlete to businessman" transition as something that needs addressing.

But the way he put it made it sound like a Black Belt wasn't inherently qualified to teach and I think that is too bad.  I mean, if you spend 5 years learning to do something, then you should have some ability to teach it if you have been at all focused on that goal during your training.  Where I have studied, teaching has been integral to learning and often it is said that when you make it to Black Belt you really start to learn, so that being the case, I have often been aware that you will learn more and sometimes even learn faster when you are teaching.  Teaching has never really been a separate issue for me.  Even as a lower belt I have been asked to help those behind me.

So as far as whether the amateur athlete to professional teacher situation goes, I think it can be done if you try, but as stated, learning to run a successful business on top of this is another matter.

How many people go to college and get a teaching certificate and then go found their own Academy for example?  Not many, they usually go get hired by someone else to teach.  Not to win Academic competitions.  Not to run a school off the bat, but just to teach. 

So that is my 6:30 am answer.  I hope it makes some sense.  I'm stuck at work trying to get out of here to go to camp and see Mr. Trejo and Mr. Conatser and some of my other good MartialTalk buddies.  Thank you.
:asian:


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## Doc (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> *Hey Doc,
> 
> ...



Yes sir. I saw your schedule. You're all over the place. How do you do it? I'm going crazy with what I have to deal with, but I'll catch you.


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## Doc (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> 
> *I noticed their site was down.
> What happened to it?
> ...


*

I disagree. A qualified teacher by the time you make black belt is pretty far fetched, especially in the 2 year black belt schools. But the question is teach what? You seem to agree with the "high school" analogy, so my question is, "Is a high school graduate qualified the day he graduates to teach high school?




			As far as amateur vs pro, this doesn't quite work for me because most of these situations relate strictly to athletes.  You are an amateur athlete and then with practice you are a pro athlete.  Most athletes play a sport for example as an amateur, and then play better and get paid as a pro.
		
Click to expand...


I think you missed the point there. As I understand it, he was talking about the levels of knowledge between an amateur and professional. He makes a point there are "amateur 5th degree salesmen of motion" as opposed to the more knowledgeable "engineers." This is the destinction I think he uses to separate the "amateur vesus professional."




			But the way he put it made it sound like a Black Belt wasn't inherently qualified to teach and I think that is too bad.  I mean, if you spend 5 years learning to do something, then you should have some ability to teach it if you have been at all focused on that goal during your training.
		
Click to expand...


Precisely the point. If a truly good student spends his time trying to learn AND increase his physical skills when does he become a teacher? It's not like studying just an academic curriculum, and if it was they still wouldn't be qualified. Here we have the problem of learning something intellectually and developing the competent physical skills simultaneously. I agree that teacher certification has to be a separate process AND separate curriculum with materials and continuous testing. I have students as high as 6th who are not certificated to teach because they choose to focus on their own study rather than grow with curriculum. Much like what happened to Ed Parker. Every generation he "lost" bb's who did not want to re-examine information they had already "passed."

Anyway, you don't have to be a bb to run a school. Ed Parker placed his son in law in charge of the Pasadena school to run its business when he was a yellow belt. MA knowledge and business have nothing to do with  each other and are best kept separate anyway.*


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## Doc (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *It's too bad CKFOnline is gone. I will miss that site.
> 
> ...



Sir, you never cease to amaze me with your powers of observation and interesting insights.


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## Doc (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> *Hey Doc,
> 
> ...



Yes sir, thats true especially in AK because the average master rank is held by someone fairly young. AK has more "masters" than any other art ever. That's what commercial does to any art. Not necessarily a bad thing in itself but, it is what it is. People who began their training in the seventies are 
10ths now. Everybody can't be an Ed Parker, but the commercial (motion) system allows this because you literally run out of information (not discoveries).


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## Michael_Browne (Oct 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *I disagree. A qualified teacher by the time you make black belt is pretty far fetched, especially in the 2 year black belt schools. But the question is teach what? You seem to agree with the "high school" analogy, so my question is, "Is a high school graduate qualified the day he graduates to teach high school?
> 
> ...


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## GouRonin (Oct 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> *Interesting quote there. I sometimes find some AK practioners get so wrapped up in the techniques, rules, principles, and etc of EPAK, that they lose focus of what it's about. Logical and practical self defense. Sort of the lose the forest in the trees concept. *



Sorry to jump in. I just got pointed here.

That's why I went to Systema Zoran. I got tired of people thinking that the techniques were american kenpo. Personally I think they're not. But people think that working these techniques and these techs alone will show you kenpo. I see them as little examples. But if you don't move beyond the examples and use the theory behind them you never really ever graduate now do you? You regurgitate. So many people are hung up on doing all these techs right that they seem to forget that the rules change and are fluid with what is going on. Or as I like to say, _"Shoulda, coulda, woulda...DIDN'T!"_

American Kenpo - Soon to be competing with TKD everywhere.


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## Doc (Oct 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Sorry to jump in. I just got pointed here.
> 
> ...


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## Doc (Oct 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Michael_Browne _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


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## GouRonin (Oct 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *I disagree. American Kenpo in many ways IS American TKD. You're absolutely right and I like the way you expressed it. The techniques are as you say learning tools that also have practical application, but they are not the art as some may think. I respect what you did "Big D." Good to see you out and about. *



I'm all about breaking the rules and pushing the envelope Doc. I was taught to think for myself. I'm not now, nor will I ever be, one of the _"sheeple."_

I agree with Huk that American Kenpo is the study of motion. The problem is that many people after they study the curriculum decide they really don't want to be explorers but rather regurgitators to stroke their own ego.


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## Doc (Oct 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Michael_Browne _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


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## Zoran (Oct 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I agree with Huk that American Kenpo is the study of motion. The problem is that many people after they study the curriculum decide they really don't want to be explorers but rather regurgitators to stroke their own ego. *



Sort of following the same lines of thought(s). Recently I heard Lee Wedlake make a passing comment of "American Kenpo is a non-traditional system that has become traditional".

If AK is to be a non-traditional system, it should allow for individualism. AK is a concept, a way, an approach, a method, and etc. It has been stated that techniques are a tool. Yet, when people change, adjust, add, subtract, and generally adjust the techniques and curriculum, they are accused by others of being a radical, or worse. Much of the time, without really understanding what that person is doing. Change *is* a part of growth!

Just a "radicals" point of view. My instructor once told me; "God gave you 2 ears and 1 mouth. So you can listen twice as much as you talk." But, since you have 2 eyes and 10 fingers, that rule doesn't apply to the internet.


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## Seig (Oct 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *Sort of following the same lines of thought(s). Recently I heard Lee Wedlake make a passing comment of "American Kenpo is a non-traditional system that has become traditional".
> 
> ...


And ironically, this is the issue I had when I was considering dealing witht the IKKA so long ago.......


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## GouRonin (Oct 13, 2002)

I have to say, despite what I said earlier. There is still good Kenpo and good Kenpoists out there. Just not as many as you would hope there would be.


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## Doc (Oct 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I have to say, despite what I said earlier. There is still good Kenpo and good Kenpoists out there. Just not as many as you would hope there would be. *



True Gou so few. (at least it looks like it rhymes)

That is my disappointment. To see my best friend's art degenerate to TKD status. He made me promise too always "share what I know." and that's what I do. I'm not looking for anyone to beat my door down wanting to learn and with a kenpo school on every corner in LA that's not going to happen anyway. I'm not interested in that and actually reject more students than I accept to date.

And as always, if you are happy with the kenpo you study (no matter what it's called) keep doing it and enjoy. If you're not, don't blame the art. There's nothing wrong with Kenpo and Ed Parker had more knowledge then in all them books put together. Don't limit him to what you read or what your "teacher" taught you because there is so much more.


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## Brother John (Oct 14, 2002)

The fact that Kenpo is the study of motion, that Mr. Kelly (and others) feel it would be best to further ones education in business, that a black belt is nothing compared to the abilities/knowledge of the individual and that Kenpo is centered on concepts rather than techniques....
Maybe it these do sound like something you said yourself: But they don't say anything that isn't already pretty much accepted in the Kenpo community at large.

What are you saying?
Do you feel that Mr. Plannas' statement validates the classification of Motion vs. Advanced Kenpo? Seems to me that his statement is much simpler than that... seems he is saying that Kenpo is the study of motion... not that there is something/anything 'higher' than that study. 

Are you saying that Mr. Kelly was talking about going on to a Kenpo college? Seems to me he was talking about becoming an adept/professional teacher... and thus going from getting a Kenpo rank (BB) to going to an actual college to continue ones eduication...say, in small business.

Guess I don't see the connection you are making.
Your Brother
John


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## Sigung86 (Oct 14, 2002)

Never ceases to amaze me that so many people will work so hard for so long to obfuscate the obvious.  But then, unlike some others, I've only been "at" the arts for about 40 years.

Sorry folks... No glory here.  I'm not here to create strife, nor will I bother rebutting your rebuttals.  I just kind of have to shake my head on occasion and giggle.

No personal offense is intended to you Brother John...  You and I have spoken on several occasions in the past.  But sometimes the responses that get posted here sound very much like they are coming from the Tower of Babel...
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Saintly Uncle Dan


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## Doc (Oct 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> 
> *The fact that Kenpo is the study of motion, that Mr. Kelly (and others) feel it would be best to further ones education in business, that a black belt is nothing compared to the abilities/knowledge of the individual and that Kenpo is centered on concepts rather than techniques....
> Maybe it these do sound like something you said yourself: But they don't say anything that isn't already pretty much accepted in the Kenpo community at large.
> ...



You would be surprized what is and is not accepted. The quotes speak for themselves, nothing more.

-30-


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## Brother John (Oct 15, 2002)

Dan... thanks for the soft rebuttal. 
Mr. Chapel....
I've been nasty to you in the past. 
I'm sorry. As I said in the other, similar, thread.. I don't want to be seen as a trouble maker!
I should have voiced any such statements in private messaging really. 
As we've both said before, it's ok to disagree, but being mature, civil and polite is much more becoming of Kenpoists.

Your Brother
John


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## Zoran (Oct 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *And ironically, this is the issue I had when I was considering dealing witht the IKKA so long ago....... *



Long ago, our school was IKKA. Even though we did not teach the current AK curriculum. SGM Parker new what John McSweeney was doing and that he was following his own path and teaching his own "hybrid" form of the system.

Unforunantly, the organization became more rigid in it's views of what should be taught. So we and Mr. McSweeney went independent.:idunno:


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## Doc (Oct 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> 
> *Dan... thanks for the soft rebuttal.
> Mr. Chapel....
> ...



Thank you for your candor. It is no small thing and I do appreciate it very much. :asian: 

Now would you please stop that little man from dancing, it's driving me crazy!!!!!!:cuss:


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## Brother John (Oct 15, 2002)

> Now would you please stop that little man from dancing, it's driving me crazy!!!!!!



Sorry sir...
that I cannot do.


GOTTA DANCE!!! 
:ultracool 
Actually, I can't dance worth a darn, so I am living vicariously through 'that little man'...

I call him George...

Your Brother (who knows that Disco died for a VERY good reason)
John


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## Brother John (Oct 15, 2002)

My wife thinks it looks like George needs to pee real bad.

So maybe I will give him a potty break afterall.
I'll look for something else to spark contraversy and annoy the senses.

Your Brother
John


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## Les (Oct 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> 
> *Sorry sir...
> that I cannot do.
> ...



OK, so the little man can dance......

But can he FIGHT??????

Les


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## Brother John (Oct 15, 2002)

NO.
Not with a full bladder...
:drinkbeer 
too much java for breakfast!!!
Your Brother
John


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## jeffkyle (Oct 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> 
> *My wife thinks it looks like George needs to pee real bad.
> 
> ...




That penguin may do just that very thing...but not as good as george though.


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## Brother John (Oct 16, 2002)

> Now would you please stop that little man from dancing, it's driving me crazy!!!!!!



Hey, is it George's MOTION that irritates you???


((that's my early morning attempt at humor...))
 

Your Brother
John


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## Kirk (Oct 16, 2002)

Kewl kenpo image sir!


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## Brother John (Oct 16, 2002)

> Kewl kenpo image sir!



I don't even recall where I found it.
Download it if you like.

Your Bro.

John
:asian:


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