# Does where you practice make a significant difference?



## bill miller (Nov 14, 2021)

Hello,all
My question pertains to whether you feel more relaxed and receptive training indoors, or outdoors. After you reach a particular stage, do you still rely on mirrors. I guess I really want to know is what kind of variables work to enhance what you actually feel under a variety of conditions.

Thank


----------



## isshinryuronin (Nov 14, 2021)

bill miller said:


> Hello,all
> My question pertains to whether you feel more relaxed and receptive training indoors, or outdoors. After you reach a particular stage, do you still rely on mirrors. I guess I really want to know is what kind of variables work to enhance what you actually feel under a variety of conditions.
> 
> Thank


Karate used to be practiced mostly outside, since there was seldom an actual dojo. Often practice would be in the master's back yard and the students would help clean the area or dojo, and bring a fish or rice balls for all to share.

I used to practice alone up in the hills and watch the sunrise after work (when I was on graveyard).  Very cool.  Coming home, a feeling of _zanshin_ remained for a while. When I had my dojo, we would go for mountain training, or at least have class in the back alley every once in a while.

Outside training is different in several respects.  With no walls or ceiling and being exposed to a great expanse of Nature, one realizes he is just a minor player in the scheme of things.  This, for me, affected how I did my karate, at least in a spiritual sense.  Plus, you are working in an unfamiliar environment as well as on uneven ground.  This helps with developing balance and proper stepping. Variables are useful to develop adaptability, a valuable asset in combat and life in general.  Turning the lights off in the dojo, blindfolds, rain and wind, hot and cold, snapping gi or shirtless...It's all good.

Mirrors IMO are good at every stage to check your position and posture, as long as you don't get addicted to them and also practice without them so they never become a crutch.

Outside and other unfamiliar environments/conditions can distract you and make you feel in less control.  Overcoming this allows you to maintain your "center", much like getting kicked or punched as you perform _sanchin_ kata. You have to adapt to the new conditions, but not let them affect your concentration, confidence or execution of your technique.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 14, 2021)

bill miller said:


> do you still rely on mirrors.


The day when I fell in love with myself in front of a mirror, the day that I no longer wanted to train with mirror.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Nov 14, 2021)

During the worst (so far) of the COVID-19 lock down in Michigan, when our dojo finally reopened, we trained in the parking lot. It was fine except for the sun on my bald head. Kicking with shoes on is good training, but I will say my knees can't take much of it.


----------



## clfsean (Nov 15, 2021)

IMHO ... outdoors is best, unless conditions are just unfriendly. There's way more benefit outside with the environment than inside and cut off from the actual flow of things. 

Just my .02


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Nov 15, 2021)

I’ve never done a significant amount of training with mirrors around, so that’s not a concern. I wouldn’t be paying attention to them anyway.

 I enjoy training both indoors and outdoors. If the weather is nasty, then obviously indoors is more fun. (I do recommend having the experience of training in snow, in the mud, or on ice, but I certainly wouldn’t want to do it all the time.)

If you’re practicing high amplitude throws, then it’s helpful to have good mats or even crash pads. I don’t mind getting thrown on the grass, but I wouldn’t like to get thrown hard 100 times in a row without a little more padding.

It’s also good to experiment with a variety of environments inside and out. Sparring inside a car or while pinned down on a couch or on a hill, etc, all help you develop adaptability.


----------



## bill miller (Nov 15, 2021)

Thank you for the great comments!
I prefer the outdoors, if at all possible, and there are certain places that seem to enhance my training experience. There is a small Japanese garden that is only ten minutes from my home that seems to bring about the best, and more relaxed feeling of flow and power. Also,there is a small park on the bluff that over looks the Mississippi River. All the elements are there,and if you relax and open up, you can feel the power of the water. I like to train in all the weather conditions, including snow, which is rare here in Memphis. As I have aged, these sessions are getting few and far between. Again, thanks for the replies!


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 15, 2021)

bill miller said:


> My question pertains to whether you feel more relaxed and receptive training indoors, or outdoors.


Training outdoors is more difficult to me.  The ground isn't level where I train. It has a slight slow and I can really tell the difference.  When I practicing on the slow of a hill forces me to be more aware of my footwork and stances.  This is difficult for me as well. Concrete, grass, dirt all have difficulties to overcome.

I like training indoors but I like training outdoors more when the weather and pollen season permits. 



bill miller said:


> After you reach a particular stage, do you still rely on mirrors.


I traded mirrors for video.  These days it makes no sense for me to use mirrors. I can't do a video replay with mirrors and I can't slow things down and get a good look if I train using mirrors.  Besides, trying to look at a mirror in certain positions in my form will only degrade my form.  It means I would turn my head to get a quick view versus keeping my head straight and focused on my imaginary target.

Indoor training often creates the idea training environment, Great for Rain, Cold and super hot days, but not exactly a realistic one in terms any surface that isn't a level surface.  Best thing out indoor training is consistency of the surface.  Best thing about outdoor training is that it's inconsistent, not always level. not always non-slip.  Where I train the surface becomes "dusty" with pollen so it gets a little slick at times.


----------



## Holmejr (Nov 15, 2021)

No. FMA classes are held in the weirdest places. I attended a class that was held in a riverbed (rain or shine), another in a high rise building under construction and on the top floor of an outdoor parking garage. We used to do tumbling on the asphalt! Things you do in your youth! Lol unbelievable!


----------



## Instructor (Nov 16, 2021)

Indoor training is a luxury worth seeking.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 16, 2021)

Where you train matters. How much depends what you're training, probably. Having good basic equipment (things like heavy bags) is important. Being able to train on a regular basis is important, which is where an indoor space has an edge in most places. Having proper flooring for taking falls and such is vital, where that is part of the training. Storage is super helpful if you have an assortment of equipment, but I've managed without it, except for storing the mats.

Mirrors can be helpful (some students have terrible proprioception, and are better at correcting when they can actually see what's going on), but far from vital. I'd say they are helpful to me less than 10% of the time with about 10% of students, so about 1% helpful. So, worth having, but not a deal breaker, by any stretch - I've taught both with and without them. I actually find a wall of mirrors is distracting to some students, so I prefer just a few off to one side.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 16, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I actually find a wall of mirrors is distracting to some students, so I prefer just a few off to one side.


agree with this. I even hated mirrors in the Gym !!  not because i am ugly ..lol but they do distract as you wrote. In a Home gym/ training area they might be useful if you have a small room as they give a feeling of more space. also distribute light if this makes sense.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 16, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> agree with this. I even hated mirrors in the Gym !!  not because i am ugly ..lol but they do distract as you wrote. In a Home gym/ training area they might be useful if you have a small room as they give a feeling of more space. also distribute light if this makes sense.


Yeah, I like to have some handy at gyms so I can check form on exercises I haven't done in a while, but tons of them all over the place........


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 16, 2021)

bill miller said:


> Hello,all
> My question pertains to whether you feel more relaxed and receptive training indoors, or outdoors. After you reach a particular stage, do you still rely on mirrors. I guess I really want to know is what kind of variables work to enhance what you actually feel under a variety of conditions.
> 
> Thank



30 years of taijiquan, never used mirrors. My first shifu had them, but I never paid attention to them. My second, and longest time training with, Traditional Yang Style, never had mirrors, never wanted mirrors, never even suggested mirrors, and never used music. I am a big fan of NOT using music.

Indoors and outdoors have their benefits. Indoors you are in a controlled environment with flat level floors. That is good for beginning, good for beginning applications too. Outdoors, on uneven ground you learn a lot about root, center and balance. Outside, on uneven ground, in the dark with as little light as possible, you learn a lot more.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 16, 2021)

I'm one of the few people I've seen that actively like the mirrors. Most people don't spend any time looking at them/noticing them from what I can tell. I use them to make sure that my back is straight, my guard is up, and what is supposed to be centered is actually centered. 

I don't look at them constantly, but a nice little spot check once or twice a session is nice.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 16, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm one of the few people I've seen that actively like the mirrors. Most people don't spend any time looking at them/noticing them from what I can tell. I use them to make sure that my back is straight, my guard is up, and what is supposed to be centered is actually centered.
> 
> I don't look at them constantly, but a nice little spot check once or twice a session is nice.











I should clarify, I am not against them, I simply do not use them..... I have however broken 2....playing indoor soccer in my first sifu's guan


----------



## bill miller (Nov 16, 2021)

After training for over thirty years in a Korean system, I found the mirrors very helpful, but when I began studying Tai Chi, and eventually could do the Yang 24, I found that mirrors and a good wood floor weren't doing it for the feel, and focus. When I took what I was learning focus and and balance began to improve, and I started feeling the postures and flow. I also began to beware of my surroundings, which worked out well until night I spooked a big blue heron feeding by the bridge. In stead of doing "repulse the monkey", I did a first class "run from the birdie"!!!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 16, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> View attachment 27603
> 
> 
> 
> I should clarify, I am not against them, I simply do not use them..... I have however broken 2....playing indoor soccer in my first sifu's guan


My primary instructor's wife (also a student of NGA) rolled into and broke a mirror at our first instructor's school. The mirrors were right at the edge of the mats.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 17, 2021)

Does any of the Karate people practise Kata in the open? I remember some years back i had a friend who was fanatical about Shotokan Kata.. when we were running together he would suddenly stop and want to do a Kata. Even in a street. was a bit much at times. He was a bit crazy but did  make it about 1.5 years later to the probably best special forces in the world


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 17, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Does any of the Karate people practise Kata in the open? I remember some years back i had a friend who was fanatical about Shotokan Kata.. when we were running together he would suddenly stop and want to do a Kata. Even in a street. was a bit much at times. He was a bit crazy but did  make it about 1.5 years later to the probably best special forces in the world


I used to. About 2 jobs ago, I used to practice more "meditative" forms in the morning in the parking lot before going in, helped me get my energy for the day. I'd also practice on the tennis court in both undergrad and grad school (undergrad at random times, grad right before going home).


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 17, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I used to. About 2 jobs ago, I used to practice in the morning in the parking lot before going in. Then would practice in my office sometimes while waiting between clients.


you know i think people did it more in the early days of the "karate" Boom in the UK too. As a kid i had no chance to practice Judo/Karate as the only place for Judo was a University which was too expensive due to fees and bus fare. I enjoyed the books from the Local Library.. and coming to my point here, i liked the Karate Books which showed training outdoors mostly always in woodland areas. The Wood pine school feeling which although was only in a book i always remembered as my friend burst into a Kata. 
just remembering & rambling...


----------



## bill miller (Nov 17, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I used to. About 2 jobs ago, I used to practice more "meditative" forms in the morning in the parking lot before going in, helped me get my energy for the day. I'd also practice on the tennis court in both undergrad and grad school (undergrad at random times, grad right before going home).


Several years ago, I taught a MA class for students needing a PE credit. We had a room in the basement of the field house. I was small but well equipped. The school decided to rebuild that structure, so they moved us out to the tennis courts, which most of use enjoyed. When the weather turned cold, we moved in to the biology building, training in the halls and open spaces.  We even worked out next to  a life sized stegosaurus that was donated to the school from an exhibit.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 17, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Does any of the Karate people practise Kata in the open? I remember some years back i had a friend who was fanatical about Shotokan Kata.. when we were running together he would suddenly stop and want to do a Kata. Even in a street. was a bit much at times. He was a bit crazy but did  make it about 1.5 years later to the probably best special forces in the world


Not a Karate person, but during the height of the pandemic I taught exclusively outdoors, and exclusively kata (no contact). We trained at a local park. If I ever get a program started again, I'll probably find a way to do that again. I like kata in the park.


----------



## _Simon_ (Nov 18, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Does any of the Karate people practise Kata in the open? I remember some years back i had a friend who was fanatical about Shotokan Kata.. when we were running together he would suddenly stop and want to do a Kata. Even in a street. was a bit much at times. He was a bit crazy but did  make it about 1.5 years later to the probably best special forces in the world


Yyyyyyyyep, I do haha.

Maybe not in the middle of the street, but in the park, at the beach, if I find myself atop a beautiful landscape view I may.

And if I have one particular sequence or technique that I can't get out of my head, there are MANY times when I just bust it out subtly, usually the kitchen... but yesterday on the train actually XD


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 18, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> Yyyyyyyyep, I do haha.
> 
> Maybe not in the middle of the street, but in the park, at the beach, if I find myself atop a beautiful landscape view I may.
> 
> And if I have one particular sequence or technique that I can't get out of my head, there are MANY times when I just bust it out subtly, usually the kitchen... but yesterday on the train actually XD


i remember doing Ken suburi outside in my Garden but i think the folks next door were laughing at me. I never bothered though as the guys wife next door was seeing another guy when he was at work...no not me but she did offer one time. but as we say in the UK you don´t **** on your own doorstep.    every time i saw the guy i just smiled at him.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Does any of the Karate people practise Kata in the open? I remember some years back i had a friend who was fanatical about Shotokan Kata.. when we were running together he would suddenly stop and want to do a Kata. Even in a street. was a bit much at times. He was a bit crazy but did  make it about 1.5 years later to the probably best special forces in the world


I have done forms in the park, in the break room at work, and 30' underwater.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 18, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I have done forms in the park, in the break room at work, and 30' underwater.


underwater? do tell


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> underwater? do tell


Last time was a dive on the house reef at Buddy Dive on Bonaire. We dive as a threesome and we were waiting for our third to finish getting geared up. Honestly, you're not going to do a GOOD form underwater, but you can sort of go through the motions. It's more comic relief than anything.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 18, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I have done forms in the park, in the break room at work, and 30' underwater.


It's so true.

Tai Chi in a pool, Five Ancestors in a forest, Hung Kuen on a mountain, and Lion's Roar in my basement.  It all works.

Got caught once doing Ghost Dragon in an elevator.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2021)

As I said, more comic relief than anything. Most of the time I'm not actually touching the bottom, and we're not over any actual reef, so no damage to the reef would be possible.

[Edit] Wrong video... now corrected.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 18, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Last time was a dive on the house reef at Buddy Dive on Bonaire. We dive as a threesome and we were waiting for our third to finish getting geared up. Honestly, you're not going to do a GOOD form underwater, but you can sort of go through the motions. It's more comic relief than anything.


why not..sounds like it was fun. I even saw a video of a guy bodybuilding under water...


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> why not..sounds like it was fun. I even saw a video of a guy bodybuilding under water...


I see a couple issues with that. 
First off, you need to have equipment, unlike forms.
Secondly, you'd have to be careful of your site selection. Doing anything that damages a reef will not make you popular with other divers.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 19, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I see a couple issues with that.
> First off, you need to have equipment, unlike forms.
> Secondly, you'd have to be careful of your site selection. Doing anything that damages a reef will not make you popular with other divers.


More of a gimmick thing. Most Videos are in swimming pools.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 19, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> More of a gimmick thing. Most Videos are in swimming pools.


Yeah, for sure a gimmick. Same as doing forms while diving. It's just silliness.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 19, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yeah, for sure a gimmick. Same as doing forms while diving. It's just silliness.


Just some fun..and why not.


----------



## bill miller (Nov 19, 2021)

Back in the mid 1970's, there was a Tai Chi instructor who tried to start a class at the VA hospital. At that time there were very few classes available vets, excluding your typical PT sessions. She purposed doing a few classes in the pool for patients with spinal and leg injuries, and was granted permission for a 6 week trial. She took certain elements of the Yang 37 set and modified them to fit her students needs.  She said that she was getting very good results with the ones who really wanted to be there, but at the end of her trial period, the VA turned down her program due to lack of funding, as well as insurance issues. She would later take certain of her private students to the pool and work them on her water methods.I often wonder what would have happened if the VA would have allowed her grant to go through.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 19, 2021)

bill miller said:


> Back in the mid 1970's, there was a Tai Chi instructor who tried to start a class at the VA hospital. At that time there were very few classes available vets, excluding your typical PT sessions. She purposed doing a few classes in the pool for patients with spinal and leg injuries, and was granted permission for a 6 week trial. She took certain elements of the Yang 37 set and modified them to fit her students needs.  She said that she was getting very good results with the ones who really wanted to be there, but at the end of her trial period, the VA turned down her program due to lack of funding, as well as insurance issues. She would later take certain of her private students to the pool and work them on her water methods.I often wonder what would have happened if the VA would have allowed her grant to go through.


A shame...it's always money.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 4, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Just some fun..and why not.


Well, one reason to consider not:  if you slip and end up pinned under the bar, you might have a problem on your hands.  Just my observation.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 5, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's so true.
> 
> Tai Chi in a pool, Five Ancestors in a forest, Hung Kuen on a mountain, and Lion's Roar in my basement.  It all works.
> 
> Got caught once doing Ghost Dragon in an elevator.


Swimming has been the best rehab for getting leg strength back after a knee replacement.


----------



## _Simon_ (Dec 5, 2021)

If you're not practicing in the secret temple after dark... is there really any point in practicing?


----------



## seasoned (Dec 8, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> If you're not practicing in the secret temple after dark... is there really any point in practicing?


Great point. The way you train is the way you will react, for real. Americans love to spar, Okinawans not so much.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 9, 2021)

seasoned said:


> Great point. The way you train is the way you will react, for real. Americans love to spar, Okinawans not so much.


OH seagull...stop it now.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 9, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Where you train matters. How much depends what you're training, probably. Having good basic equipment (things like heavy bags) is important. Being able to train on a regular basis is important, which is where an indoor space has an edge in most places. Having proper flooring for taking falls and such is vital, where that is part of the training. Storage is super helpful if you have an assortment of equipment, but I've managed without it, except for storing the mats.
> 
> Mirrors can be helpful (some students have terrible proprioception, and are better at correcting when they can actually see what's going on), but far from vital. I'd say they are helpful to me less than 10% of the time with about 10% of students, so about 1% helpful. So, worth having, but not a deal breaker, by any stretch - I've taught both with and without them. I actually find a wall of mirrors is distracting to some students, so I prefer just a few off to one side.


I’m with you on this. One back corner mirror, thats it.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 9, 2021)

bill miller said:


> After training for over thirty years in a Korean system, I found the mirrors very helpful, but when I began studying Tai Chi, and eventually could do the Yang 24, I found that mirrors and a good wood floor weren't doing it for the feel, and focus. When I took what I was learning focus and and balance began to improve, and I started feeling the postures and flow. I also began to beware of my surroundings, which worked out well until night I spooked a big blue heron feeding by the bridge. In stead of doing "repulse the monkey", I did a first class "run from the birdie"!!!


Lol! There was a blue heron in the field by my house today.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 9, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I have done forms in the park, in the break room at work, and 30' underwater.


30 ft? Scuba kata? Cousteau would be proud.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 9, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> View attachment 27603
> 
> 
> 
> I should clarify, I am not against them, I simply do not use them..... I have however broken 2....playing indoor soccer in my first sifu's guan


Ah, I see you've trained with "Golden Leg" Fung as well.


----------



## bill miller (Dec 9, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Lol! There was a blue heron in the field by my house today.


Watch Out!!!   Those are some devilish, sneaky critters!


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 9, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Ah, I see you've trained with "Golden Leg" Fung as well.



Yes it is wear I learned the final soccer game is war.....which is why mirrors got broken


----------

