# Birth of Pain?



## Kosho-Monk (Aug 22, 2005)

In the "Probationary Black Belt" thread, James Hawkins mentions "They give students the "birth of pain" on tests".  I've been involved in Kempo (Shaolin Kempo and Kosho Ryu Kempo) for over 20 years and have never heard of this particular aspect of tests.  Can someone elaborate on this?

Thanks.

-John


----------



## KenpoTess (Aug 22, 2005)

In our school after promotion to a new rank, the student assumes a Horse Stance and the head instructor gives them a front kick to the ab region.. (Student is told to 'prepare for the kick' )  Rather akin to 'childbirth' the student has progressed to the point of giving 'birth' to the next rank..  each rank is a slightly harder 'birth of pain' kick..  Hopefully the student Kias' and accepts the kick with humility    By Black Belt.. the kick is much 'harder' than the lower ranks.

hope this helps.. there may be other definitions varying school to school. 

~Tess


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 22, 2005)

Has anyone ever been injured?


----------



## searcher (Aug 22, 2005)

Sounds like an everyday occurance in my school.  We use the kata niseishi to test students in a very similar way.   BB's get the Shinai used on them during their BB tests.   It can be very painful.   Sounds like fun.


----------



## Rob Broad (Aug 22, 2005)

It is an awesome feeling to be kicked by your instructor after the test.  I always loved it.  But an even better feeling is to be the one doing the kicking.


----------



## kenpochad (Aug 22, 2005)

I dont now about just standing there and letting some one hit or kick me .

As you advance you get hit harder and harder in sparring class .
And they try to hit you faster and harder when you preform techniques.
Sorry not tring to be rude. just wanted to share how its done where I train.


----------



## Casey_Sutherland (Aug 22, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> It is an awesome feeling to be kicked by your instructor after the test. I always loved it. But an even better feeling is to be the one doing the kicking.


not at the end of your foot. It feels like a truck


----------



## Michael Billings (Aug 22, 2005)

"In order to know pleasure, one must have known pain;
  Likewise to experience success, one must have known failure.
  The kick is symbolic of the teacher's passing knowledge to the student;
  And like the pain of childbirth; there can also be pain as we grow in our knowledge."

 Nobody ever hurt that I have seen in 26 years of kicks.
 And if they flinch, I get to kick them again (or be kicked - as I am not exempt).

 -Michael


----------



## KenpoTess (Aug 22, 2005)

Nobody has ever gotten hurt.. we don't kick to harm or injure the student.. As the upper ranks get a more vigorous kick, we have someone 'spot' them from behind so they don't fall back or down..  They tighten their abs.. wait for the kick.. Expell the air in a good Kia.. and it's over.. the lower belts get a 'tap kick' the upper belts more so..  The instructor also 'Controls their power delivered..
It's also a trust factor.   Never have we had anyone fear it, or refuse it., even little kids who get tapped with the foot.
and if they flinch.. we get to do it again 




 :asian:


----------



## Kosho-Monk (Aug 22, 2005)

> In our school after promotion to a new rank, the student assumes a Horse Stance and the head instructor gives them a front kick to the ab region.. (Student is told to 'prepare for the kick' ) Rather akin to 'childbirth' the student has progressed to the point of giving 'birth' to the next rank.. each rank is a slightly harder 'birth of pain' kick.. Hopefully the student Kias' and accepts the kick with humility  By Black Belt.. the kick is much 'harder' than the lower ranks.


Kenpo Tess,

Thanks. I've seen Kenpo schools do this. I didn't realize it was called Birth of Pain.

-John


----------



## KenpoTess (Aug 22, 2005)

You're welcome John 

~Tess


----------



## Simon Curran (Aug 23, 2005)

I think the Birth of Pain is the coolest thing about testing.

One of the guys who kicked me for my 3rd brown test weighs over 300 lbs, that was one I felt...
The same guy also sent my instructor tumbling onto his butt, but none of us have ever been hurt.
That being said, we have an orange belt who should be going up to purple soon, and he is not too dilligent with hhis sit ups...


----------



## CrankyDragon (Aug 28, 2005)

Ahhh yeah, akin the macho "beating of the wings into the chest" for those that graduate Airborne school. Makes a lot of sense to me. Ab kicks. Really, a cool concept that finally caught up with the times. 

  Someone explain this to me once more, I think Im still confused. Doah!

 Nevermind, images of David Carridene lifting a pot of hot coals to burn dragons into his forearm come to mind, it all makes sense now. Nevermind.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 28, 2005)

NGAzone said:
			
		

> Ahhh yeah, akin the macho "beating of the wings into the chest" for those that graduate Airborne school. Makes a lot of sense to me. Ab kicks. Really, a cool concept that finally caught up with the times.
> 
> Someone explain this to me once more, I think Im still confused. Doah!
> 
> Nevermind, images of David Carridene lifting a pot of hot coals to burn dragons into his forearm come to mind, it all makes sense now. Nevermind.


Yes and it makes perfect sense to practice an art (i.e. Aikido) where the highest ideal in defense is to do so without hurting the attacker.  Yeah that's it, just keep throwing him in the least painful way possible and hope he gets tired of getting up and attacking again.  Or better yet, pin him to the ground until help arrives.  Just hope his help doesn't come first. (Joking by the way)

OK, now that I'm done joking around.  Every art has it's traditions, knocking them isn't going to win you any friends if you don't mind the cliche.  The "Birth of Pain" is one of Kenpo's traditions.  It can be argued that it has application as being able to take a forceful kick has merit.  Just like one of Aikido's traditions is to bow to the Shomen before class.  Someone could argue that bowing to a "pcture of a dead guy" makes no sense.  But an Aikido-Ka would argue otherwise.  Some would argue that throwing your feet through boards repeatedly is foolish. A Tae Kwon Do practitioner would argue otherwise.  Give a little respect to each arts traditions and you just might learn something.  Unless becoming one with the floor from a projection is all you want to know. 

Respectfully,
James


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 28, 2005)

I'm sure the tradition is nothing but harmless fun in most instances and I wouldn't want to be overly critical of an art that isn't mine and one that I do not understand.  

However, there were a lot of threads a while back on belt whipping and a lot of people considered that hazing.  Could this thing be considered hazing?  What if a student came back with a lawyer after a test and _claimed_ it _was_ hazing?

Just a couple of questions.  Again, I mean no disrespect...

:asian: 

upnorthkyosa


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 28, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I'm sure the tradition is nothing but harmless fun in most instances and I wouldn't want to be overly critical of an art that isn't mine and one that I do not understand.
> 
> However, there were a lot of threads a while back on belt whipping and a lot of people considered that hazing. Could this thing be considered hazing? What if a student came back with a lawyer after a test and _claimed_ it _was_ hazing?
> 
> ...


Well if you can get kicked over and over again in a martial art and then sue for getting kicked this is a sad society we live in. You don't get belt whipped everyday in kenpo, but you get kicked all the time.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Aug 28, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I'm sure the tradition is nothing but harmless fun in most instances and I wouldn't want to be overly critical of an art that isn't mine and one that I do not understand.


I haven't been in Kenpo as long as most but over my 11 years I've never seen anyone hurt physically or their pride. Everyone enjoys the promotional kick and expects it. It's a sense of accomplishment and most generally the testers love to line up for the backfist.


----------



## BlackIce (Nov 10, 2005)

Kenpo Greetings,
First off Cranky Dragon only a 30 to 35 out of a start class of 60 make it thru AIRBORNE School and I am proud to Say that I am ONE (AIRBORNE). i is a matter of pride to get your "Blood Wings" and note that it is voluntary and officially frowned upon by the ARMY. Like military life Kenpo is rooted in the combat ethos and striking a student upon promotion is a tool used to imspire the fighting spirit that they will need to be successful in the proceeding Kenpo Ranks


----------



## Keite (Nov 14, 2005)

I'm sorry, this is probably a foolish question, but I'm new and have never heard of it before. What is "belt whipping"?


----------



## Michael Billings (Nov 14, 2005)

A line where you receive a symbolic "whipping" by fellow or upper belt students to celebrate your promotion.  

This is not a common practice from what I hear.  Much more typical would be the symbolic kick you receive as part of the promotion process.  I have not seen either of these outside of Kenpo, but have heard of both, (and experienced the "Kiss of the Dragon - the kick).

-Michael


----------



## arnisador (Nov 14, 2005)

I've seen the symbolic _punch_ to the stomach to celebrate promotions in Karate--e.g., this was done to me at each promotion in Isshin-ryu many years ago.

I've also seen the belt whipping. One JKD school I know does it for birthdays!


----------



## DavidCC (Nov 14, 2005)

At our Shaolin Kempo school we use a punch to the solar plexus, but only a student of rank as high or higher than your new rank can do it.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Nov 14, 2005)

Keite said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, this is probably a foolish question, but I'm new and have never heard of it before. What is "belt whipping"?


 
Welcome to Martial Talk! I love your Avatar, by the way.

On topic: my Judo school used to throw newly promoted students who would walk through a line to be thrown by each member of the dojo. I think the Kenpo "kick" is a similiar concept. The belt whipping raises my eyebrows slightly, but, hey, different strokes for different folks.


----------

