# 8th Degree BB Ninjutsu?



## phatbway (Feb 26, 2009)

OK, I must warn you I know NOTHING about Ninjutsu, so here goes. This 16 yr. old boy joined our TKD/HKD club and claim he is an 8th degree BB in Ninjutsu?????? He said he started since age 6. So he's been at it for 10 years.
how do your stuff work? how is that possible?

thanks for your response in advance.


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## Kreth (Feb 26, 2009)

He does not have an 8th degree in any legitimate system.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 26, 2009)

You should congratulate him on his great accomplishment and then tell him that there are a ton of people who would like to "congratulate" him here.  Encourage him to sign up!


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 26, 2009)

Ultimate newbie here, but I guess no. I just reviewed the genbukan rules, guidelines and general information last weekend.
If it was important enough for them to print out the whole package for every student, it is probably a good idea to read it front to back.

One of the things I remember is that The highest level you can achieve as a teen is Shodan. You simply have to learn other things like e.g bojutsu until you are old enough to progress beyond Shodan.
So unless he passed level 2-8 within a year of turning 16...

I don't know which X-kan the boy is enrolled in, so it might be different, but even then I assume they don't hand out high level black belts to a kid.

Another limitation is that there has to be a number of years between next dan level. I don't have the book at hand atm, but at the higher levels it is a couple of years. Other organizations could be different, but even assuming that you can rise one level per year, he'd have to have gotten his Shodan at 8 years old.

Of course it could be a non traditional school, but even in those I think it would be unlikely to have a 16 year old 8th dan.

So despite my newbieness in ninpo, I am inclined to say he simply cannot be an 8th dan. I have been known to be wrong though. Especially since the day I became a married man


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## Sandstorm (Feb 26, 2009)

I thought all 16 year olds had black belts. :drinky:
Then they mature a year or two later


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## David Weatherly (Feb 26, 2009)

Kreth said:


> He does not have an 8th degree in any legitimate system.


 

Agreed, he does not have a belt in any legitimate system.  That being said, there are tons of "systems" that have been created by loose nuts so who knows.
Course, there's always the propensity of teenagers to strech the truth.


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## CoryKS (Feb 26, 2009)

From the government?


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 26, 2009)

Think about it he is an 8th dan.

Most do not obtain that level until in their later years after more than the training that the person in question is alive.

But your rank is only as good as your skills.


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## MJS (Feb 26, 2009)

phatbway said:


> OK, I must warn you I know NOTHING about Ninjutsu, so here goes. This 16 yr. old boy joined our TKD/HKD club and claim he is an 8th degree BB in Ninjutsu?????? He said he started since age 6. So he's been at it for 10 years.
> how do your stuff work? how is that possible?
> 
> thanks for your response in advance.


 
I would say that this 16yo is not being serious.  Of course, it'd be interesting to know if he has any training at all, other than stuff he may have picked up from a book, youtube or creating in his mind with his friends.

If there were a dojo, regardless of art, that gave a 16yo an 8th degree BB, I'd run, not walk away from that school.


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## arnisador (Feb 26, 2009)

I think this must be Korean Ninjutsu, also known as Tae Kwon Do.


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## stephen (Feb 26, 2009)

Not quite the same, but similar in a way:

Had a guy come in once who moved from his home country and was looking for a dojo.

He volunteered, "I'm a 2nd kyu."

I said, "Okay"

He followed with, "Do you want me to bring my certificate."

"No, that's okay"

"You believe me without proof?"

"Yeah, it's fine, doesn't matter to me, you're welcome to train if you'd like." 

"Would you like to see the syllabus to see what I know?"

"Nah, just show up for training if you want to train."

Never saw him again.....


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## suicide (Feb 26, 2009)

shanobi :jediduel:


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## seasoned (Feb 26, 2009)

Thats what happens when you give a kid a black belt, in some cases.


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## Bujingodai (Feb 26, 2009)

David Weatherly said:


> Agreed, he does not have a belt in any legitimate system. That being said, there are tons of "systems" that have been created by loose nuts so who knows.
> Course, there's always the propensity of teenagers to strech the truth.


 

I've personally never heard of an 8th dan in a "loose nut" non legit system, myself. Some do grant teens black belt, not keen on that.
The term "loose nut" has also been used by other legit orgs to describe some of the ones who run the legit systems as well.
What about a 19 year old Godan, that much different?


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## Kreth (Feb 26, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> What about a 19 year old Godan, that much different?


Much like a 16 year old Hachidan, I've never heard of one...


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## astrobiologist (Feb 26, 2009)

I may have been one of those 2nd dan 11-year-olds (never made it to 8th though :ultracool), but this kid is only 16.  He's probably trying to impress you with a lie about his greatness because he feels weak.  Ask him if he could show you some of his "great knowledge".  I'm sure you'll see right away that it was a lie.  

Like was mentioned before, tell him he should come share with all of us.  We'll set the kid straight.


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## Bujingodai (Feb 26, 2009)

Kreth said:


> Much like a 16 year old Hachidan, I've never heard of one...


 

There is a Bujinkan Shidoshi out of Canada. He was a yellow when I left the org and is now a 5th dan, maybe higher but 19 at the time he received it. I'm not tossing his name out here as I won't PM is fine if you wish proof. 

I'm not using it against anything other than the Buj has it's young Godans and above too.


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## Kreth (Feb 26, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> He was a yellow when I left the org and is now a 5th dan, maybe higher but 19 at the time he received it.


We don't have yellow belts in the Bujinkan. :idunno:


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## Bujingodai (Feb 26, 2009)

Kreth not all schools in the Bujinkan follow that routine. OK I am sorry a 9th kyu then.
I will tell you that I had coloured belts, just like Judoka. No I realize most times its green as a kyu.
Now with that being said, it was the only network of Buj school I know that had coloured belt.


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## Kreth (Feb 26, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> Now with that being said, it was the only network of Buj school I know that had coloured belt.


Ah, if he trains under who I think he does, that explains a lot...


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## Bujingodai (Feb 26, 2009)

My teacher was among the finest I have ever witnessed in the Bujinkan.
I didn't have great chemistry with the guy but he is a damn sight better than the multiple dojo I have visited and what I saw in Japan.

What the hell would you have to say about him, now that I have PM you and you know who he is.


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## phatbway (Feb 27, 2009)

Thanks to ALL for your responses. I was not about to believe this kid, but since I know nothing about the Ninjutsu system and how often they test and how long it takes to be a BB, I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. WOW! The things kids do for attention.

Amazing!


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## newtothe dark (Feb 27, 2009)

Maybe he trained at the same school as ralph hall??????/:dalek:


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## Kreth (Feb 27, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> My teacher was among the finest I have ever witnessed in the Bujinkan.
> I didn't have great chemistry with the guy but he is a damn sight better than the multiple dojo I have visited and what I saw in Japan.


Your teacher is better than the instructors in Japan? :rofl:


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## Bujingodai (Feb 27, 2009)

You know you have a certain way of twisting answers, good that you are a mod.
I didn't say that. What I said was he was lot better than what I had seen in Japan. That includes foreigners.
With that being said as I stated my opinion, you never stated what you knew of him or why you hold that opinion. He didn't do much in the states so I fail to see how you'd know that much of him.
What you are coming back with is vailed insults instead of just a reasonable answer.

I'm sorry I chimed in with a thought.


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## runnerninja (Feb 27, 2009)

OK before I get slated here I do acknowledge that I do not know any high ranking black belts who are in their teens and I am unlikely to come across any from what I have seen from peoples training.
However I do not believe that a student should be prevented from receiving grades based on age. I understand that in order to reach higher level grades there will be a certain level of understanding or maturity required.
At present regular training students seem to train about 3 times a week. In theory if they started at ten and trained consistently when wcould they expect to achieve a balck belt? 3-5 years?
What if they trained every day(I dont know anybody who does this, but in theory)? Could they not reach a higher grade in the same space of time?
What about people like Takamatsu? Had he not received menkyo kaiden in at least one ruy by the time he was 19?
As I have said I dont personally know anybody who I could use as an example but if a student has the right teacher and attitude to apply himself/herself to learning the are could they not achieve a high grade in their teens?


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## Kreth (Feb 27, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> You know you have a certain way of twisting answers, good that you are a mod.


You mean as opposed to your veiled shots at the Bujinkan virtually every time you post? 


> I didn't say that. What I said was he was lot better than what I had seen in Japan. That includes foreigners.


You said (emphasis mine):


> ...but he is a damn sight better than the multiple dojo I have visited *and what I saw in Japan*.


Since you specified in Japan, that to me says that you think the Japanese are somehow lacking compared to your instructor.


> With that being said as I stated my opinion, you never stated what you knew of him or why you hold that opinion. He didn't do much in the states so I fail to see how you'd know that much of him.
> What you are coming back with is vailed insults instead of just a reasonable answer.


 Are we talking about your instructor here or this whiz kid godan? I thought the godan trained under a fringe group like Willson's Collective---er, Brotherhood, or Divantman.


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## Bujingodai (Feb 27, 2009)

Touche. I'll conceed that. I'm trying slowly to get beyond trading barbs

No, my old instructor had nothing to do with Wilsons group at all. And we are speaking of my instructor whom I mentioned in my PM to you. However my instructor did teach Divantman Sensei, who was a brown belt when I left that particular dojo.
I do not know that this whiz kid is anything now. I just remember him having alot of talent as a youth. But if my former teacher says he's good I am apt to believe him. I gather he passed the test and Hatsumi Sensei's mark so that is good enough for most.

I was being defensive of my teacher, not said whiz kid. I was using that as a point.

That being said, I don't know all of the indies. The ones I do know and would train with don't have that age group with hachidans. I have no issue with a teen as a Shodan myself if they have that level of skill. I would think that a hachidan would just look a little silly, at 16 at least.

I think alot of orgs, myself included tend to be a little generous to inspire folks. I've certainly had that failing in my past. 

It was not meant as a slam to the Bujinkan more as a point of statement.


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## Kreth (Feb 27, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> I gather he passed the test and Hatsumi Sensei's mark so that is good enough for most.


Keep in mind that the Bujinkan is big enough that it is impossible for Hatsumi sensei to know much about every yondan taking the test. He assumes that they were recommended in good faith.


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## MMcGuirk (Feb 27, 2009)

The last time a teenager (17 years old)sat for the Godan test at a TaiKai that I know of was asked from Soke:
"who is your teacher?"  <student answered>

He was then hit so hard with a shinai the tip actually hit him in the face from the force of the strike!!  (there are multiple witnesses to this)

"that's for your teacher"

It's really funny to me because I was dojo mates with the teacher!


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## Bujingodai (Feb 27, 2009)

Very true Jeff.
However the student/Shidoshi does exist. So it does happen, which is what it is.

Now as for Hatsumi doing that little lesson, this student should of had nothing to suffer for the actions of his teacher if that was the lesson to be had.
Hatsumi should have rejected the notion of him sitting for the test in the 1st place. But to let him sit and belt away to teach his teacher a lesson, I'd have him brought up on charges. I would have no problem teaching a "lesson" to the teacher for being wrong in promoting so fast. This does nothing but to serve as a show. Imagine being 17, led to believe you were ready, pay to go to Japan all full of passion to learn to be shown up. Disgusting.
Maybe some Daito Ryu or another school there, would it be wrong then for them to teach a "lesson" in the dojo physically for the misalignment of quality assurance of the arts in Japan in their opinion? 
I watched 7 Sakki test when I was in Japan, 1 of which I would have passed. Maybe they all should have been whacked to impress a point upon their teachers.

Well I hope the teeen got smart and left the organization.

I respect mat "lessons" but thats abusive if it is at all true.


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## Kreth (Feb 27, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> But to let him sit and belt away to teach his teacher a lesson, I'd have him brought up on charges.


What charges, specifically, after you voluntarily sat for a test knowing that failure meant getting whacked with a shinai? :idunno:



> Maybe some Daito Ryu or another school there, would it be wrong then for them to teach a "lesson" in the dojo physically for the misalignment of quality assurance of the arts in Japan in their opinion?


What? 



> I watched 7 Sakki test when I was in Japan, 1 of which I would have passed.


Since you're obviously much more qualified (at least in your own opinion), why didn't you point out to Hatsumi sensei that you would not have passed those people?


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## MMcGuirk (Feb 27, 2009)

In all honesty Bujingodai, why do you care what happens in the Bujinkan then?  You admit you don't belong to it and don't care for how the way things are run. This is not a flame question or attack but an honest question.

Getting whacked with a shinai is a bit better than going around thinking you are skilled and then getting killed in a real fight.

Since I knew the people involved, the kid actually made an attempt to clean up his act and get back in touch with reality. In fact, Hatsumi sensei contacted a local teacher and asked him to retrain the kid the proper way.  His test took place in the U.S. and not Japan so no great fortune was spent traveling overseas. 

If this was the worst thing that ever happened to him in training he's very fortunate. ( I haven't seen him in years, so don't know if he trains at all anymore) I've broken a knuckle, dislocated joints and been hit on the head of my pride and joy with a bo staff and had the usual "where did that bruise come from?".  This is a martial art, pain is normal.  As I say though, pain and injury are two different things.  The kid walked away with a hurt pride and ego. 

My friend (his teacher) on the other hand was embarrassed to all hell and took a hard look at his own promotion standards and no I don't raz him about it.

As for charges:  say we were training and I'm to punch you in the face and wind up hitting you.  would you bring me up on charges?  Do you think the local police would look at this and think "why are you wasting my time, Isn't this supposed to be a martial arts dojo?"  

Sorry that may come off as snippy as I write this but it's not.  I tell people who hit me not to worry about it because it's my fault I got hit.  I knew the punch was coming and I'm a big boy all grown up.

It's kind of like when I was a grunt in the army and people worried about going to war?  WTF!!??

"disgusting"  come on, that's a cheap shot and an organization you have issues with.  If you don't like it then why do you pay attention?  Honestly, I don't like a certain "martial" art and the chains of dojo's they open around where I live, but I sure don't hang around them telling how much they are doing things they way I see them or getting angry over it.

oh yeah, when the person in question trained with us he always had a smile on his face and got on great with everyone, so go figure.


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## Bujingodai (Feb 27, 2009)

Jeff you had to be recommended to sit for that test do you not? If not then I am wrong and I conceed then the person in question may have to bear some of that brunt. If not a poor one.

Never mind about the lesson thing. My point is lost even within myself I am not sure why I wrote it.
As for the being more qualified. I never said that. But be real you've seen a bunch of them yourself. Do you honestly feel that they merited the true pass? Thats only my opinion personally, and I said that. I would have only passed the certain ones. We are entitled to that.

Jeff no matter what I say you are going to throw a spin on it. So I gather the mods position here to to tow a certain line instead of allowing opinions. I am not being rude about it.

BTW the invitation to have you come to an indie seminar expenses in paid by me, is still open. I know the last time you had to back out. We'd love to have you. I for one would love to see you teach and learn something from it.

MMguirk. You are very right. It should not bother me what happens in the Kan. The point was being made about a grade level and I was stating it happens in the "legit" systems as well. I don't care but I have been the subject of online witchhunts in the past as have fellow schools so it bears to reason that I might have an opinion that would bother me.
But again it is not my concern. So correctly I will let it go as soon as it is done here

As for training and being punched in the face, no I wouldn't charge you. My teacher has broken my ribs I never charged him.
However lets say your son goes to my school, and I teach him a lesson by whacking him that hard. That would be Ok with you.

Maybe just a perception. It was mine.
Done deal, glad the lesson was learned. My opinion stands, I am sorry it doesn't mesh with yours. I appreciate your opinion on the matter.


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## Kreth (Feb 27, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> Jeff you had to be recommended to sit for that test do you not? If not then I am wrong and I conceed then the person in question may have to bear some of that brunt. If not a poor one.


You have to be recommended, yes. 



> As for the being more qualified. I never said that. But be real you've seen a bunch of them yourself. Do you honestly feel that they merited the true pass? Thats only my opinion personally, and I said that. I would have only passed the certain ones. We are entitled to that.


It's not my call. Now if I end up training with that person, knowing they're a godan (or higher), I'm not going to take it easy on them like I might with a lower ranked student. The last time I was in Japan I got an interesting collection of bruises from Hatsumi sensei and the shihan, because I really tried to hit/throw them when I got tapped as uke. 



> Jeff no matter what I say you are going to throw a spin on it. So I gather the mods position here to to tow a certain line instead of allowing opinions. I am not being rude about it.


My opinion on a topic in no way makes that the official position of the staff here. I'm not putting a spin on anything, I'm responding to your comments. If you think I'm being rude in my replies to you, you can report me just like any other member. In the past we've had mods warned, suspended, even banned for violating the rules.



> BTW the invitation to have you come to an indie seminar expenses in paid by me, is still open. I know the last time you had to back out. We'd love to have you. I for one would love to see you teach and learn something from it.


I haven't had time for my own training lately, let alone anything else. And when I do get back into it, I'm going to be spending quite a while wearing my student hat before I do any more teaching.


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## MMcGuirk (Feb 27, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> MMguirk. You are very right. It should not bother me what happens in the Kan. The point was being made about a grade level and I was stating it happens in the "legit" systems as well. I don't care but I have been the subject of online witchhunts in the past as have fellow schools so it bears to reason that I might have an opinion that would bother me.
> But again it is not my concern. So correctly I will let it go as soon as it is done here
> 
> As for training and being punched in the face, no I wouldn't charge you. My teacher has broken my ribs I never charged him.
> ...


 
First off thank you for answering the question in the manner it was asked.

I'm not following the "legit" and witch hunt thing so I'm not going to appreciate your feelings on the matter.  I'm not you obviously. However, it sounds like you are taking past transgressions from other people and projecting onto people you don't know. 

May I ask what BujinGodai (dojo)is?  To me it is an english compound of Bujin and the Godai.  Divine warrior and 5 elements.  Now, if your answer is you are teaching Ninjutsu then I can imagine the people hounding you and what not.  

I know you mentioned you were once a member of Bujinkan but have since left.  If you are still claiming to teach Ninjutsu then I'm sure there are people harrassing you.  Right or wrong it's not my business but I think I get why you get pissed.

Now, theoretically if I had a son training under you and you whacked him hard to teach him a lesson would I get mad at you?
Depends:
Did my son do something stupid?  In this case I would whack him after you!  Yes, in all honesty. This is why I've never been in trouble with law and pay my taxes!  I wouldn't injure him though. 

Did you whack him just because you could and get a sense manhood from it?  I would beat the snot out of you. Or you'd beat the snot of me.  In any case our relationship would be over anyway.

One of the things you mentioned about not liking Japan training is the lack of attention to protocol.  Well, harsh training is sometimes necessary.  Please do not associate this with vindictive and cruel.

Last time I saw a Japanese senior teach a Japanese junior sword kamae, the poor new guy was getting whacked about the ears and head because his kamae was poor.  Did he get mad?  No.  Did he try harder to fix his kamae? Yes.  It was a long night for him while the rest of us went on training other principles.

In the U.S., in all probability the guy would have quit and claimed the dojo is full of jerks who don't know what they are doing.

What we in the west see as cruel or mean(sorry for the cliche) is a form of kindness.  Now you can disagree or agree with it that's fine.  Your opinion on the matter won't change what I do either.
No worries, it's been a slow work day.


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## Bujingodai (Feb 27, 2009)

Fair enough, sure I can see why the independent Ninjutsu schools are definatly hounded. So there is the witchhunt thing. Yes what I teach I call it that, though like a bunch I don't claim attachment or some history to Japan. I'm not going into the story why it ended up this way I can assure you it was not the original intention, it just did.

As for being a part of the Kan Iwas for a number of years, and also came back. I was very disappointed with what I saw in Japan and upon my return I Left. I do not claim teaching rank in the Kan, I have a Sandan, thats it. So hence can not teach it. Nor do I award rank in it.

OK again perception of the discipline. I agree with the Japanese method of discipline. I guess I was more ired by the context. I have been the subject of it, witnessed it in other schools as well. My perception of that situation, which I have admitted to being wrong.
I guess somethings are not meant to be compared

Your correct about the name that was the intention, it's grammtically incorrect as you have stated, but it's been 10 years and it will stay that way.

Anyway I am not here trying to stir crap as some may think I am trying to discuss something of my opinion thats all.

Personally I have no problem at all saying alot of the indies are whackjobs, I have at least met with and trained with the ones I have opinions of.

However you know the same is said of the Bujinkan.

You speak of Japanese methods and such, which is fine. It seems I am confused about it.
Now what of the Bujinkans lack of reigi saho, would that not be against Japanese protocal as well.

Just for a point of discussion.


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## kaizasosei (Feb 27, 2009)

When i was a kid i became a 12$ black belt so that i could enter competitions.  However, i didn't exploit the belt system for the purposes of bragging and inflating things.  Might be good to just roll with it and humour him.  Highly unlikely a 16 can be a decent high degree without some serious backup.  Why don't you simply ask for a something like a demonstration of basic skills?  I for one would be interested in seeing some of that...chances are it's laughable, but if he is truly inspired, who knows, kid may be good.  
What makes him want to give up his extraordinary rank to practice another art?  Not that it's a bad thing, but in my book, unless you have really formal papers and testing from seniors, what's the point of telling tales?- be they true or not.

Ninjutsu is known for being devious and using many destructive techniques but making those techniques and strategies work takes as much maturity and experience as in an other martial art if not more because you may be taking a simple fight to another level.  On the field, lame tricks are generaly easily overpowered by true martial strength and the bearer of destructive techniques is only digging himself a deep grave.  Sounds like not only a lonely world, but a very fearful one.  The only thing that really speaks for him is the fact that he is making an effort to hook up with real communities showing braveness in that sense.  Big question is, how willing is he to learn and even to conform??

j





j


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## MMcGuirk (Feb 27, 2009)

BujinGodai,

I really don't care what people who don't train in Bujinkan think about us.  I've used it in real life for defense and over time the training has also taught me how to move through life and live happier.  It still amazes me when people who have spent only a little time or none at all except for watching youtube videos are more expert than those who have spent years learning in the group.

I'm also amazed at those claiming to teach Ninjutsu and not having ANY ties to Japan or lineage.  Why do people feel the need to add ninjutsu to their school name?  

if you are a skilled martial artist who's invented their own style then use an english or whatever native language to name it.  adding ninjutsu to it doesn't make it so.  besides physical techniques there is a philosophy and delivery method that is unique. how can it be learned half a  world away? 

"indie?" independent of what? not meant as a jab but a real question. if these groups would just drop the word ninjutsu no one would care.  although your not going to pleasee everyone.

My mother has an octagenarian friend who thinks I'm secret Japanese police because I travel to Japan to train in Ninjutsu. (she's native japanese btw) No, I tell her I train in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.  I don't do any espionage or sneaky things.

Just about every younger Japanese not practicing martial arts can't even read some of the kanji or understand the "old" Japanese being spoken. I tried at university to get a lot of translations and I would get the old "eeeeh? this is old Japanese, we cannot understand it.  Can you understand old Enlish?"  So how do foreigners who don't speak the language claim a connection?  

This is no different then the teenager claiming he is 8th dan.  just because he says it doesn't make it so.

As far as formal protocols of behavior in the dojo, I don't speak for the Bujinkan. 

Personally, I love the way it's done.  I can train in a t-shirt because it's hot and humid or I can wear a sweatshirt because it's freezing.  I don't have to bow 50 times a night I can just train. I've been around dojo in the U.S. that did this and I think it's a waste of training time. 

I've been to a seminar where the host complimented the outside group participating was well behaved because they went around yelling "yes sir!"  they couldn't do what was being shown but that was besides the point.  I'd rather try to ingrain what's being taught as opposed to behaving more japanese than the japanese. 

I think the bow before and after class suits me just fine. There is protocol, but as far as I see, there is a time and place for it. If the lack of protocol irritates you then as you said, you don't train in Bujinkan so you shouldn't let it bother you.  Just my opinion.


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## Bujingodai (Feb 27, 2009)

Well said and appreciated, thank you. You illustrate your points well. I can see your points.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (Mar 2, 2009)

Maybe he meant 8th "KYU".....lol


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 2, 2009)

I for one pray to God that is what he meant.

I used to train in Isshin ryu karate, but left my teacher in favor of the jizaikan because he would keep promoting people without there being any improvement in fighting ability.

I used o train with a woman who earned her 5th degree blackbelt, but never practiced any sparring or self defense techniques! She got nearly beaten to death by her ex-boyfriend. I don't know about the rest of you but I would consider a 5th degree to have master level ability. You can see why I got the urge to leave.

By the way this is not a bash of Isshin Ryu karate, I've seen powerful karateka of this style (my brother for one), but rank flies out the window if you have no skill to back it up.


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## phatbway (Mar 2, 2009)

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> Maybe he meant 8th "KYU".....lol


 
I don't know the difference between what you said and 8th degree.................


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## bluekey88 (Mar 2, 2009)

phatbway said:


> I don't know the difference between what you said and 8th degree.................


 Kyu ranks are colored belt ranks...8th kyu being a beginner for the most part.


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## phatbway (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks.



bluekey88 said:


> Kyu ranks are colored belt ranks...8th kyu being a beginner for the most part.


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## Raynac (Mar 2, 2009)

hmmmmmm interesting, Ive learned alot from this thread. most of the people I've seen have all averaged around ten years for getting their blackbelt (some in 9 some in 14 but not to far from ten)

but then again there are also no recorded 8th shodans in to-shin-do at the moment. Im not sure how they grade in bujiukan


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 3, 2009)

10 years for black belt? I haven't heard of a martial art that requires you to be around that long to get your "initial step". I think (depending on your art and level of commitment) that a black belt should take between 3.5-5 years to earn.

10 years seems excessive, I would have assumed that a practitioner would have been versed well enough in the basics to have begun the actual journey at this point.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 3, 2009)

> This 16 yr. old boy joined our TKD/HKD club and claim he is an 8th degree BB in Ninjutsu??????


 
Ask him to levitate. If he can't, he's no 8th degree. In fact, if anyone says says their eighth degree in any art, ask them to levitate or catch a bullet in their teeth. If they can't do that, they can get on the mats or leave.


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## jks9199 (Mar 3, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> 10 years for black belt? I haven't heard of a martial art that requires you to be around that long to get your "initial step". I think (depending on your art and level of commitment) that a black belt should take between 3.5-5 years to earn.
> 
> 10 years seems excessive, I would have assumed that a practitioner would have been versed well enough in the basics to have begun the actual journey at this point.


In my system, it's a minimum of 5 years.  7 years is pretty typical.  Some take longer.  I've seen some places (usually TKD) where there's a schedule, and if you pass everything and stay on schedule -- it's 18 months.  BJJ, on the other hand, seems to take 10 years or so...

A lot depends on what's expected of a black belt.  In some styles, it's demonstrating a basic understanding of a core curriculum -- and can be done quickly, for a talented and dedicated athlete.  In other styles, there are different levels of understanding and skill which take more time to learn.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 3, 2009)

I guess it really all depends on what your system wants a 1st degree to be able to do. I've seen schools promote too quickly (white to black in 1 yr?!), but I guess there are some schools that take a longer time to get to 1st dan as well.

10 yrs or so can make people think that BB is a high rank when its not. How long to reach second or third? I personally don't believe in time limit requirements (niether does my art). Can you do what is required for your next belt consistantly? congradulations, new belt.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 3, 2009)

In IRT it all depends on the person and their skill sets.  Could be three to four years for an associate instructor or it could be ten years of more. (trust me I have peole working on it at that time frame right now)  BJJ is another system that has very high standards and quite often it is ten years or more.  Glad to see Bando has stringent requirements too jks9199.

In Budo Taijutsu it is very arbitrarial.  Meaning I took a long time as I never wanted rank nor do I still want any.  It came to a point where it would have been bad manners to refuse what was offered so I accepted it.  Some people chase rank faster and can get it if they want it.  However, there is a great deal of Budo Taijutsu practitioner's that really do not care about rank nor do we wish to be promoted.  Like wise there is a group that want as much rank as possible.  Hence in my opinion why Budo Taijutsu has some huge dan ranks.


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## Raynac (Mar 3, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I guess it really all depends on what your system wants a 1st degree to be able to do. I've seen schools promote too quickly (white to black in 1 yr?!), but I guess there are some schools that take a longer time to get to 1st dan as well.
> 
> 10 yrs or so can make people think that BB is a high rank when its not. How long to reach second or third? I personally don't believe in time limit requirements (niether does my art). Can you do what is required for your next belt consistantly? congradulations, new belt.


 
I never said there was a ten year limit. It all depends on your skill level and how fast you progress. I was just saying on average  it takes most people close to ten years. but I know a few who it did it in less time. ten years may seem like a long time, but if thats how long it takes someone to obtain the skills for a specific art to the satisfaction of the instructor then thats how long it takes, no sense trying to rush it to make people happy because in the end you would be failing them in your duty as an instructor. they should be comming to you for the art, not the belt color.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 4, 2009)

Raynac said:


> I never said there was a ten year limit. It all depends on your skill level and how fast you progress. I was just saying on average it takes most people close to ten years. but I know a few who it did it in less time. ten years may seem like a long time, but if thats how long it takes someone to obtain the skills for a specific art to the satisfaction of the instructor then thats how long it takes, no sense trying to rush it to make people happy because in the end you would be failing them in your duty as an instructor. they should be comming to you for the art, not the belt color.


 

I agree. The question is that does a BJJ or Bando practitioner practice basics for 10 years until it is satisfactory to gain 1st dan. Then do they move on to more advanced things, or does the BB not have anything to do with "skill sets" and more about how experienced you are with the skills you have been practicing if you follow my meaning?


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## phatbway (Mar 9, 2009)

I want to thank you all for your responses on this matter. I have learned some things about Ninjutsu I had no idea existed before. Again thanks for you insights.

Phatbway.


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## DBZ (Mar 9, 2009)

phatbway said:


> Thanks to ALL for your responses. I was not about to believe this kid, but since I know nothing about the Ninjutsu system and how often they test and how long it takes to be a BB, I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. WOW! The things kids do for attention.
> 
> Amazing!


 
Thats probably what happened. We had a teenager come into are tkd school claiming to be a blackbelt already and 5 min into the first class it was very aparent he lied. an instuctor took him out of class an told him if he wanted to stay he had to fess up and appologize and come back with a white belt. He said that he did lie and that he just bought his belt and looked at a book, but he never came back to are school


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## phatbway (Mar 11, 2009)

Well, this 'kid' got kicked out of our program because he totally destroyed the instructor's TKD manual. he borrowed it for one 1 night and returned it the next class, totally destroyed. instructor told him he had no respect for other people's property and he should not return.


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## Raynac (Mar 11, 2009)

what the heck!!! what is wrong with that kid!!!


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## newtothe dark (Mar 12, 2009)

Not that unheard of, keep in mind that some of these kids are dropped off for the "karate teacher" to teach them disipline because they have never been taught it.


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## Raynac (Mar 12, 2009)

hmmmmm thats true... but what a horrible way to learn disipine. its somthing that should be taugh all though there life. expecting an instructor to pick up the slack... from my experience the ones who become the most disiplined are usually the ones who already are disiplined to a certain degree.


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## phatbway (Mar 12, 2009)

Raynac said:


> what the heck!!! what is wrong with that kid!!!


 

I thnk this kid has a lot of issues. Had a talk with his Grandfather and I was asked by Pops; "do you have my grandson under control"? *WHAT????*
My reply was direct; "this guy has no dicipline" and he agreed instantly and said; "I know, that's why I sent him to learn TKD".
Well, so much for that. Wonder where next he's going to be 'sent' 
sounds like boot camp is next, I guess.


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## phatbway (Mar 12, 2009)

Anyway, before being let go, I had the chance to spar with this kid of ours and let me tell you, this kid is no BB in anything. 
I am TKD Purple belt, him - 8th degree  BB Ninjutsu. Or so he says.

1) he only knows one kick;right spinning cresent-that's it. i am not making this up, folks. I am 47 yrs. of age and don't have the time.

2) he's burned out under 2 minutes of each of the 3 rounds and blames it on 'having the cold'

3)he takes more water breaks than my 10 year old son who is also TKD purple belt.

4) he criticized our demo team 3 weeks ago saying that our demo was lame and he did not want to participate because of the same reson. (We were going up against 3 other TKD schools in my area, We took home the BIG trophy by the way and now are the defending champs)

Soooooooooo........this kid is as fake as they come! :barf:


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 12, 2009)

I can't stand it when people send their problem children to a MA school to get them in line. Sometimes it works out, but most of the time it is a hassle for everyone. Sometimes I wonder if people sign their kids up just so an instructor can kick the crap out of them.

These people don't stick around for long, but they disrupt the atmosphere while they are there.


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## Grenadier (Mar 12, 2009)

I wouldn't waste any more time worrying about the one claiming to be a hachidan. There are more important things to do in a dojo / dojang. 

Since he's no longer with your school, it's simply not worth the precious calories and brainpower spent over someone who would be a non-factor in your own training.


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## shesulsa (Mar 12, 2009)

If you're not equipped to handle a person with a problem like this, then you should be honest about it right up front.  A teen telling you he's an 8th degree bb, and you are upset? He's a teen and he lied. You're not the instructor - get a grip.

Sounds like the instructor accepted him either thinking he could help the kid and then didn't talk to his students about it (his perogative) or not knowing the extent of the problem.

Next time some student comes in like that, how about trying to help him out or play "the game" with him until he finds humility - OR -  - talk to your instructor about how YOU can best help this kid.

"If you're complaining, you're not training."


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 17, 2009)

Sandstorm said:


> I thought all 16 year olds had black belts. :drinky:
> Then they mature a year or two later


 

You mean you don't get a brand new black belt with the car keys :rofl:

Maybe he meant 8th kyu and it got really really lost in translation.


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## phatbway (Mar 20, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> If you're not equipped to handle a person with a problem like this, then you should be honest about it right up front.
> 
> A teen telling you he's an 8th degree bb, and you are upset?
> 
> "If you're complaining, you're not training."


 
Are you kidding me? I have teenagers of my own to deal with!

 Upset, who's upset? just discussing an issue I think is valid and remember i said in my initial post that i don't know ANYTJING about Ninjutsu.

Trust me, I am not complaining. I am 47 years of age (I have the feeling I've said that before) and I really don't have the time. I train harder and am more dedicated than the teenagers in my class. So complaining is not one of my things.


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## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2009)

phatbway said:


> I don't know the difference between what you said and 8th degree.................


 

Then maybe you got it wrong and you did the lad a dis-service by posting up here. He maybe needed help rather than ridicule even or rather especially if he said 8th Dan. 
8th kyu to me means he would have been training only about 6 months or so.
When kids especially teenagers say something is lame it tends to mean they are scared to try it as they don't want to make a fool of themselves, they are very self concious. They may come across as beligerent but many are actually lacking in self confidence.
If he did say he was an 8th Dan it could also be because he was feeling intimidated, I'm not saying anyone has to believe him but to start off with it would have been good to ignore what he said and train him as a beginner.


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## shesulsa (Mar 20, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Then maybe you got it wrong and you did the lad a dis-service by posting up here. He maybe needed help rather than ridicule even or rather especially if he said 8th Dan.
> 8th kyu to me means he would have been training only about 6 months or so.
> When kids especially teenagers say something is lame it tends to mean they are scared to try it as they don't want to make a fool of themselves, they are very self concious. They may come across as beligerent but many are actually lacking in self confidence.
> If he did say he was an 8th Dan it could also be because he was feeling intimidated, I'm not saying anyone has to believe him but to start off with it would have been good to ignore what he said and train him as a beginner.




Indeed. Let's say there are 9 ranks to get to black belt; progressions would look something like this:

White belt = 9th kyu
next rank up = 8th kyu
next rank up = 7th kyu
next rank up = 6th kyu
next rank up = 5th kyu
next rank up = 4th kyu
next rank up = 3rd kyu
next rank up = 2nd kyu
next rank up = 1st kyu

Then Black Belt which would be:

1st Dan
2nd Dan
3rd Dan
4th Dan

... etcetera.

The lad probably has some kind of problem and it could be a self-confidence thing or he could have a very real emotional or mental or developmental problem.

And I stand by what I said - if you're not equipped to deal with another person in your class with this kind of problem, you really should be honest and talk to your instructor. 

I, too, have my very own teenagers to deal with (one of them, in fact, feels like three), but that does not keep me from understanding the people around me and attempting, at least, to contribute positively towards the classroom community environment.

Good luck to you.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 20, 2009)

I agree with Shesulsa, it's just not an issue. I could see it being a problem for the instructor I suppose, but if a student has an issue they bring it to him/her or the Sempei etc.

As for a point on the age thing as it has zero bearing. Being 47 doesn't mean alot. I have had students in their 50's with a chip on the shoulder and something to prove as much if not more than my teens.
I also have teens, 4 girls. I understand stress of dealing with them myself. But this is pretty normal teen stuff to make a claim like that, then get humbled at some point then the claims just tend to go away.

You sound pretty aggressive with the posts yourself, is this not something that goes away with age? The obsessive worry about what a teen does.

I'm hoping the same happens for me as I let alot get my goat as well. But I'm 38 :uhyeah: so I have a few years of vitrol left in me LOL.

I'd shake the kid off. I personally find them entertaining, until they are adults then you make a spectacle out of them if need be.


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## phatbway (Mar 23, 2009)

I do sincerely apologize if I seem to come across rigid, was not my intention. I'd never do that, even if you have no idea who I may be. So, accept my apologies.


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## Bujingodai (Apr 6, 2009)

Earlier in this thread I believe I made citation to a young Shidoshi in the Bujinkan. He was a 9th kyu when I left that dojo some 11-12 yrs ago.
I have moved back to my hometown, had the chance tonite to visit my old Sensei at his request for a class. I had a chance to watch the person I made reference to.
I will make good in saying that he moves as well as his teacher does, flawless looking, very smooth and without ego. Very charming lad. As expected my old teacher also moved in a way that never ceased to amaze me.
So when I am wrong I say it. I was right about the age thing and the rank, but I imagine I had conotations of poor skill, of which if I did I apologize. I was sadly mistaken.


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## bljohnson (Dec 28, 2011)

My sensei would not give anyone a shodan rank that was less than 16 yrs old. I did have a guy claiming a yondan in koga ryu but had absolutely no skill. He also claimed to be a tae kwon do blackbelt but I had to teach him how to kick.  A blackbelt in tae kwon do but he can't do a round kick? He would come to class and write down techniques then vanish in true ninja fashion for a few months. On his return he would ask to test since he had been working on these things at home. It's easy to be a master when you train alone.


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## Maximus (Feb 14, 2012)

He could have learned it from a family member.
my "sensei" has been doing it since the 80's, and he teaches his 13 year old son.

BTW, i am new to this forum thing.....how do i post? i cant seem to find any button or anything that allows me to past a question.


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## jks9199 (Feb 14, 2012)

Go to the appropriate forum, perhaps Meet & Greet to tell us a little about yourself , and click the button that reads "New Thread".


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