# Zen : Is there a Heaven and Hell?



## still learning (Feb 10, 2006)

Hello,  Just a story to share....

A Samurai enter a temple and ask the Monk...... " Is there a heaven and hell?

The Monk look at him and said you are a worthless Samurai and started to say more ugly things at him.......

The Samurai took out his sword and raise it above his head ready to cut the Monk down...

The Monk put his hands up to his chest for a prayer and said.." You have found Hell "

The Samurai look at him and put his sword back in his holder....

The Monk said " You have found heaven" .....(spare the Monks' life)

......Is heaven and hell within us?   Zen ...............Aloha


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## Josh (Feb 10, 2006)

Psalm 24:3

3Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?



Yes Heaven is a real place. And don't exclude Hell.


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## Xequat (Feb 11, 2006)

I'm kind of hoping it's relative and within us.  I have a hard time believing that there are only two extremes...a firey burning pit of despair versus a happy cloud city with naked little angel babies flying around.  I don't think that Hitler should be in the same place as, say, someone who bears false witness against his neighbor.  If I could design it, I'd say that when we die, we are granted pure and true objectivity and we evaluate ourselves to determine how our afterlife will be.  Maybe we just suffer a bit of annoyance for a short period of time if the worst thing we've ever done is illegally download mp3's, but if the worst thing we've done is worse, then I feel that the punishment should fit the crime.  

I believe that God is fair and just and doesn't care which religion you are a part of, if any, as long as you do what is right or what you feel is right, and if He judges where we go after life, then I think that there would have to be degrees of Heaven and Hell.  I guess we'll see.


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## KenpoTess (Feb 11, 2006)

Assist. Admin Note:

Moved to Philosophy and Spirituality in the Arts.

~Tess
-MT. Assist. Admin


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## Martial Tucker (Feb 11, 2006)

Xequat said:
			
		

> I'm kind of hoping it's relative and within us.  I have a hard time believing that there are only two extremes...a firey burning pit of despair versus a happy cloud city with naked little angel babies flying around.  I don't think that Hitler should be in the same place as, say, someone who bears false witness against his neighbor.  If I could design it, I'd say that when we die, we are granted pure and true objectivity and we evaluate ourselves to determine how our afterlife will be.  Maybe we just suffer a bit of annoyance for a short period of time if the worst thing we've ever done is illegally download mp3's, but if the worst thing we've done is worse, then I feel that the punishment should fit the crime.
> 
> I believe that God is fair and just and doesn't care which religion you are a part of, if any, as long as you do what is right or what you feel is right, and if He judges where we go after life, then I think that there would have to be degrees of Heaven and Hell.  I guess we'll see.




I agree with this. I would hope that, if the 10 Commandments really "count", that I would be judged differently for stealing or killing, vs. having impure thoughts about my neighbor's wife.

What you are describing is kind of "karmic", though I don't believe in reincarnation. But I would agree that our actions here will determine our fate after death, but on a relative basis. I totally agree that it doesn't matter what religion you are. It matters what kind of person you are.
So, yes, heaven or hell is within us, and more importantly, it's a choice.


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## Blotan Hunka (Feb 11, 2006)

Wasnt the monk somewhat responsible for the Samurai's actions too? And wasnt he experiencing a little bit of hell (about to die) and heaven (not going to die after all) too?


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 11, 2006)

Not drawing the sword  or drawing it an killing   two extrems in the given situation.
Peace of body and mind  vs. anger and hostility

interesting 

Was the monk in heavn or hell when he responded


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## DeLamar.J (Feb 11, 2006)

I dont believe in heaven or hell. When you die you are gone and that is the end of your life. I think the idea of heaven and hell was created to make people live better lives, even when no one is around to see what they are doing. Its quite brilliant, how do you keep people from doing bad things when you cannot possible keep track of everyone? You create heaven and hell.


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## Martial Tucker (Feb 11, 2006)

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> I dont believe in heaven or hell. When you die you are gone and that is the end of your life. I think the idea of heaven and hell was created to make people live better lives, even when no one is around to see what they are doing. Its quite brilliant, how do you keep people from doing bad things when you cannot possible keep track of everyone? You create heaven and hell.



I respect your opinion, but it leads me to a couple of questions:

1. The idea was created by who, and, why would they bother?

2. If there is no heaven and hell, then you could argue that there is really no right or wrong in our actions. We only act in a civil manner to each other because otherwise, we would go to jail. These are the rules that society imposed upon us long ago. (Maybe the same people who came up with the notion of heaven and hell) If there is no afterlife, then there are no repercussions from uncivil actions, e.g. murder, stealing, etc...

This being the case, I would like to ask you if, given a chance to steal, kill, or whatever, in a situation where you were 100% certain you would not be caught, would you do it? If not, why not? The premise is that you are certain you will not be caught, so under your belief system, there will never be any repercussions for your actions. If you say no, because it goes against the "good" of society, then I ask who first came up with the concept of "good" or "not good", and would this be the equivalent of someone coming up with the supposedly bogus concept of heaven and hell?

Please do not take this as an expression of disrespect or hostility.   You are 
entitled to your beliefs, just as I am. I'm just trying to find the "core" of the logic behind your belief.:asian:


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## MA-Caver (Feb 11, 2006)

My own thoughts and understanding of it all... 
Heaven and Hell are four places. A literal place of both, one of paradise and one of dispair. An internal place of both, one of peace and harmony and one of agony and strife. 
Internally each of us experiences the two throughout our lives at different times. Our emotional content determines where we are. Many times we find ourselves in the middle. Going through day to day, work, (MA) school, and lives with our families or significant others and friends. We choose how we feel each and every single moment of our lives. No one *makes* us feel anything. It's all how we (our minds) choose to feel at that moment and how we feel comes from our hearts, which is where I feel our souls resides. A person talks badly about us, cuts us off in traffic, gives us a nice gift, betrays us, pays us a compliment, acts rude towards us, allows us to cut in line at the grocery in front  of them because we have two items to their 8 or 9, and so on... we can and _do_ choose how to feel at that moment. Our experiences (thus far) helps us to choose the right one for any given situation/circumstances. 
Mentally we can train ourselves to choose the "heavenly path" and be like those Zen master monks and be at peace with all things around us. But of course life sometimes gets in the way of our mental training. But we can learn how to be on that heavenly path inside ourselves and thus avoid the hell of pain, heart-ache, dispair, loss, anger, fear and so on. 

As far as the literal concepts of Heaven and Hell... I follow Christ and thus my beliefs are according to that following/theology ... however imperfect my personal following is.


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## Kane (Feb 11, 2006)

Josh said:
			
		

> Psalm 24:3
> 
> 3Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
> 
> ...



Come again? How do those words prove the existence of heaven or hell?


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## Kacey (Feb 11, 2006)

Is there a Heaven and Hell as literal locations?  No, I don't believe that there is.  That does not preclude Heaven and Hell as the extremes in some form of afterlife.

The original Biblical concept of Hell, known as Gehenna, was a place of punishment, at least in the original Judaic conception.  Certainly, Judaism includes the idea of an afterlife; that is implicit in the belief that, after Judgement Day, God will call up the peoples of the world and judge them.  You live your life the best you can, and then, following Judgement Day, you will (either individually or as a member of a group - within one's people) be judged on the quality of your life.  Very little is specified after that point.  Gehenna is listed as existing, but it is more of a place of purgatory than of eternal damnation; a truly merciful God would not punish a wrong-doer eternally, but only in proportion to the sin(s) committed.

Please remember that this is my interpretation of my faith based on my own studies and experiences - please don't think that I speak for every Jew.


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## Marginal (Feb 11, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> I respect your opinion, but it leads me to a couple of questions:
> 
> 1. The idea was created by who, and, why would they bother?


 
The idea of heaven and hell as the current concepts exist are usually attributed to the Hellenistic model of the afterlife. 



> 2. If there is no heaven and hell, then you could argue that there is really no right or wrong in our actions. We only act in a civil manner to each other because otherwise, we would go to jail. These are the rules that society imposed upon us long ago. (Maybe the same people who came up with the notion of heaven and hell) If there is no afterlife, then there are no repercussions from uncivil actions, e.g. murder, stealing, etc...


 
It can be argued that there are still repercussions outside of penalties imposed by social taboo tradition and law. Being a murder is inherently risky. Especially if there's no restrictions imposed on other people killing you in turn. (Which is likely since you're inflicting emotional damage as well as potential ecenomic damage on a family by killing someone else.) The threat of death by others would also encourage people to naturally band together to protect themselves. Most don't apply morality to animals but social structures are still observed. All driven wouthout a belief or even a concept of heaven, hell, or mortality. 

Repercussions don't vanish with morality. Morality doesn't vanish with religion.


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## DeLamar.J (Feb 12, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> I respect your opinion, but it leads me to a couple of questions:
> 
> 1. The idea was created by who, and, why would they bother?
> 
> ...


1. The main creator of heaven and hell is Jesus Christ. There were a few religions before Christ that had stories of afterlife. There was even a a Devil in many other philosophies before Christ had walked the earth. Why would they bother you asked? Well I'm not sure what they thought, but I think that it was a idea to make people lead better lives, because as long as you dont get caught, its ok. But all that changes when heaven and hell are around, because god is always watching.
I think it was a good idea for those times, but now I think people should be doing the right thing because its the right thing, not for the personal gain of going to heaven. Thats kind of selfish in a way, only doing the right thing because you might be punished for not doing the right thing. I also see the idea of heaven and hell as unrealistic. But please dont think I am trying to say you are stupid or wrong in a roundabout way. Finding it unrealistic is just my personal point of view because I think more like a scientist than one of the faithful.

2. As a Satanist, I also try to live by certain rules. As far as not getting caught for something and still doing it....that would all depend on the situation and the act itself. I am a big supporter of the law, so breaking it is not a good thing in my book, but I also realize that there are some possible situations that might require the law to be broken for the greater good. I know this is a corny example but have you ever seen beverly hills cop, if so then you know what I mean. He broke the law for the greater good, to get a bad criminal off the street that was an expert at slipping through the cracks of the law. I dont like violence, and I avoid it at all costs. I fear my government and I dare not cross it. If I could compare with the god fearing individual in any way, its in the way I fear my government. Here is a small portion of my religion. If you want to learn more then I suggest you visit the churchofsatan.com, because Im not going to fill up 10 pages about why I feel this way or that way. This is the nine Satanic sins

[SIZE=+4]*[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Nine Satanic Sins[/FONT]*[/SIZE]


[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]by Anton Szandor LaVey ©1987[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*1.* *Stupidity*The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. Its too bad that stupidity isnt painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*2. **Pretentiousness*Empty posturing can be most irritating and isnt applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyones made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*3. **Solipsism*Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They wont. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of Do unto others as they do unto you. Its work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*4. **Self-deceit*Its in the Nine Satanic Statements but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when its fun, and with awareness. But then, its not self-deceit! [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*5. **Herd Conformity*Thats obvious from a Satanic stance. Its all right to conform to a persons wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*6. Lack of Perspective*Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraintsknow that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies*Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality its something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*8. Counterproductive Pride*That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when youve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, Im sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*9. Lack of Aesthetics*This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. Its not whats supposed to be pleasingits what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of ones own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied. [/FONT]

​


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## evenflow1121 (Feb 12, 2006)

I believe you are right, we create our own heaven and hell.  If you live your life with anger and hate, chances are you will live an unproductive life and you are creating your own mental hell as a result of it.  Its always better to let go and move on.


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## still learning (Feb 12, 2006)

Hello, Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this!

For myself the story share a point sometimes we must look at.....things happen in our lives and we do control our own actions.   

Heaven and hell is meant about our emotions and actions, we can share it give it away or others can do the same to us.....be nice and others will react to it in a nice way, simile and people simile back.  

Give anger and you may receive anger back?  Does this make sense of the story.....another way to look at it? ...........Aloha


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## Kacey (Feb 12, 2006)

Marginal said:
			
		

> Repercussions don't vanish with morality. Morality doesn't vanish with religion.



Indeed.  It requires a much higher moral functioning level to do what is right *because *it is right, than because of fear of sanctions.  Many people do good because it garners reward, either from society or as points for the afterlife.  Many people avoid sin (by whatever definition of sin they use) because of fear of sanctions in the afterlife; similarly, many people avoid illegal actions because of fear of repercussions in the present life.  Only the source and timing of potential repercussions and/or rewards are different.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 14, 2006)

Xequat said:
			
		

> Maybe we just suffer a bit of annoyance for a short period of time if the worst thing we've ever done is illegally download mp3's



11th Commandment?

"Though shalt not infringe on the intellectual property of multi billion dollar corporations?"

Seriously though, the whole black and white thing does seem a little off.  Nothing in lief is that black and white.

The monk in the story seems to make a interesting point.  He says the samurai has found heaven and hell, but in no way does he say there is a afterlife.  Just states of mind.

But seeing as the monk would more likely believe in reincarnation and not a Christian style afterlife that makes sense 

Anyways, excuse me while I pay tribute to Anubis to ensure things go well for me when I die


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## heretic888 (Mar 2, 2006)

Kacey said:
			
		

> It requires a much higher moral functioning level to do what is right *because *it is right, than because of fear of sanctions.


 
Lawrence Kohlberg, anyone?? 

There are three quick little tidbits I'd like to add, if I may....

1) The notion that "Jesus Christ" invented the archetypes of Heaven and Hell is perhaps the most ludicrous proposition I have ever heard on these forums. These mythos go as far back as Plato, if not earlier. In fact, I would argue that the Western manifestations we are most familiar with most likely have their origins in Zoroasterianism, which predates Christianity by quite a few centuries.

2) I'm gonna have to go with Marginal and Kacey on the idea that you need judgments on the behalf of an ontological Other to have morals and ethics in the world, as well as with the notion that you need repercussions to have a viable moral system. In fact, if research into the development of sociomoral cognition has shown us anything, it has demonstrated that a "reward/punishment" paradigm is a decidedly _lower_ form of moral functioning.

3) If'n you're gonna look at things from a Zen consciousness, then all things whatsoever having to do with time, space, duality, and relative whatnot's are ultimately collapsed into the timelessness of No-Mind or absolute Void. Come to think of it, that's kinda what the Christians say, too. Don't believe me, read up on some St. John of the Cross, Nicolas de Cusa, or Meister Eckhart:

".... there are more days than one. There is the soul's day and God's day. A day, whether six or seven ago, or more than six thousand years ago, is just as near to the present as yesterday. Why? Because all time is contained in the present Now-moment. Time comes of the revolution of the heavens and day began with the first revolution. The soul's day falls within this time and consists of the natural light in which things are seen. God's day, however, is the complete day, comprising both day and night. It is the real Now-moment, which for the soul is eternity's day, [SIZE=-1]on which the Father begets his only begotten Son and the soul is reborn in God. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE] 
[SIZE=-1]The soul's day and God's day are different. In her natural day the soul knows all things above time and place; nothing is far or near. And that is why I say, this day all things are of equal rank. To talk about the world as being made by God to-morrow, yesterday, would be talking nonsense. God makes the world and all things in this present now. Time gone a thousand years ago is now as present and as near to God as this very instant. The soul who is in this present now, in her the Father bears his one-begotten Son and in that same birth the soul is born back into God. It is one birth; as fast as she is reborn into God the Father is begetting his only Son in her.

God the Father and the Son have nothing to do with time. Generation is not in time, but at the end and limit of time. In the past and future movements of things, your heart flits about; it is in vain that you attempt to know eternal things; in divine things, you should be occupied intellectually....

Again, God loves for his own sake, acts for his own sake: that means that he loves for the sake of love and acts for the sake of action. It cannot be doubted that God would never have begot his Son in eternity if [his idea of] creation were other than [his act of] creation. Thus God created the world so that he might keep on creating. The past and future are both far from God and alien to his way."

Laterz.[/SIZE]


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## SAVAGE (Mar 2, 2006)

Yes there is a heaven and hell!


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