# How effective is sport BJJ (or GJJ) on the Street?



## K-man

Over the past 18 months, every thread where we have tried to discuss Karate, Aikido, Wing Chun or any other martial art you'd like to name, eventually it has turned into an arguement where it is pointed out how BJJ or MMA is so much better and the training inherent in any other style is vastly inferior to the sport based styles that spar. Even more, even those that spar are inferior because they don't have a specialised ground game of BJJ. 

Now I happen to think that BJJ is a great martial art and MMA is great for anyone who wants to test themselves in the relatively safe environment of the ring, but how effective is BJJ in the street? 

I'll start out by saying that BJJ, like many martial arts, is mostly taught in a way that produces excellent fighters for the ring but does not prepare you for the street. 

Let's put BJJ under the microscope without style bashing please.


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## drop bear

It is specialised. It does what it does well but sacrifices adaptability to achieve that.

The thing is to be a well rounded fighter you need these specialisations because they have the most depth in that area.


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## Mephisto

Bjj and ground fighting are unique in that a small trained person can have quite an advantage on a larger untrained person on the ground. It's one of the few arts to really level the playing field between men and women. A larger trained man will still have an advantage but I've seen small female blue belts who can handle make white belts with relative ease. But what about the broken glass, and aids needles on the ground? The hordes of multiple opponents? Training in ground fighting gives you the training necessary to control and change your position. If you end up on your back (beyond your control) you'll have the ability to sweep and get up or change your position. As for multiple opponents? Good luck, without I weapon I don't think any art will give a smaller person an advantage. But it's still a scenario worth training. 

Bjj is a specialty worth training, that or another art that has proven success in grappling. When you roll with resisting opponents regularly there's no speculation about how you'd apply your skill you've done it over and over. No training will ever 100% simulate reality. You can limit rules and roll or spar hard and learn to control an aggressive opponent or you can lighten the intensity and wirk more combative techniques. Both are a good approach to self defense. I personally value the ability to control an aggressive attacker first by trsinibg regular sparring.


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## Tony Dismukes

It largely depends on how the art is practiced.

If you train distance management, punch defense, takedowns, and tactical awareness then it is as street applicable as any unarmed martial art and more so than some.

If you train strictly for BJJ competition and neglect the aforementioned factors - you'll still develop some useful attributes, but you'll have some missing elements and may develop some bad habits.

If you train BJJ as a complement to a stand-up art, then you will be prepared if the fight goes to the ground but you will be less tempted to take the fight there when it's not situationally appropriate.


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## drop bear

Bjj also benefits from cross training in other grappling arts as well.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Here is one French BJJ black belts point of view:

BJJ Black Belt s Point Of View Why Jiu-Jitsu Is Not Suitable For Street Fighting Bjj Eastern Europe


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## Mephisto

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Here is one French BJJ black belts point of view:
> 
> BJJ Black Belt s Point Of View Why Jiu-Jitsu Is Not Suitable For Street Fighting Bjj Eastern Europe


I think it's a good article and makes good points. He simply concedes that bjj doesn't have all the answers, I agree with this. I also think many advocates of bjj would also agree. Pulling guard and butt scooting aren't good strategies for a street fight, Im curious how many people within bjj really think this is a viable strategy on the street. The author mentions that situational awareness and striking are other important areas to train. He adds that bjj is valuable because it is trained with resistance as is boxing. He seems to also advocate krav but adds that the "deadly strikes" at soft targets can't be trained with resistance.

Bjj is valuable because you may end up on the ground in a self defense situation, in this scenario your ground fighting experience will enable you to take the dominant position and disengage. Just as you can be hit from behind on the ground so can you be hit from behind standing up. Awareness is the key, that is a common factor in any martial art and any self defense situation.


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## Mephisto

Many who train and recommend bjj will concede that it doesn't have all the answers. Disputes arise when practitioners of non ground fighting arts aren't equally critical of their own systems. Some think their system has it all and downplay the value of groundfighting, this is where conflict arises.


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## Tony Dismukes

Mephisto said:


> Pulling guard and butt scooting aren't good strategies for a street fight, Im curious how many people within bjj really think this is a viable strategy on the street.


I think that most BJJ practitioners are fully aware that pulling guard and butt scooting are tactics appropriate for sport competition, not for street fighting.


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## Mephisto

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think that most BJJ practitioners are fully aware that pulling guard and butt scooting are tactics appropriate for sport competition, not for street fighting.


Exactly, the article shared concerns about sport tactics such as pulling guard but I don't know how many guys are really going to pull guard on the street.


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## Tony Dismukes

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Here is one French BJJ black belts point of view:
> 
> BJJ Black Belt s Point Of View Why Jiu-Jitsu Is Not Suitable For Street Fighting Bjj Eastern Europe



Mr. Luccioni has some good points about the limits of BJJ in dealing with multiple armed attackers and so on, but I think I'll quote myself from another thread:



Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, I think I need to address a dirty little secret of the relation between martial arts training and real world violence.
> 
> Most martial arts training is in some way or form related to developing ability in fighting. The context for that fighting may vary (archaic sword duels, modern ring fighting, "street" violence, theatrical fighting, etc) and there may be additional claimed objectives (fitness, "discipline", etc), but to some degree we all think we are learning how to fight.
> 
> The secret is this - *once you get away from the "social" violence whereby individuals (mostly young men) try to establish their dominance or release excess testosterone in one-on-one clashes, the outcome of most violence is not settled by individual fighting skill*. In most violence, the winner is the side which successfully deploys surprise, intimidation, superior positioning, superior numbers, and superior weaponry. Regardless of whether you are a mugger selecting a victim, police officers arresting a suspect, or an infantry platoon assaulting an enemy fortification, you aren't looking for a fair fight. In fact, you don't want there to be a fight at all. You want the outcome to be determined before the encounter begins.
> 
> It's technically possible to prevail by means of superior fighting skill and spirit if you are outnumbered, out-armed, and caught by surprise, but it's not a high-percentage proposition, no matter how good you are. If you manage to survive and get away in that situation, then you are doing well.
> 
> What this means for self-defense is that 95% of the job is in a) steering clear of the temptations to engage in avoidable social violence and b) having the awareness to make sure that surprise, intimidation, superior positioning, superior numbers, and superior weaponry are not used against you (and are preferably on your side). It doesn't hurt to have some actual fighting ability for when everything else goes wrong, but that shouldn't be your primary concern.



In other words, BJJ does not have the answer for a surprise attack by a gang of murderous armed thugs. Neither does Goju ryu, Wing Chun, Krav Maga, Ba Gua, or any other martial art.  If you are unlucky enough or screw up badly enough to end up in this situation, then your martial art _might_ give you a chance to survive long enough to escape, but attributes, tactical sense, and pure luck will be as important as any techniques you might practice.


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## K-man

Mephisto said:


> he author mentions that situational awareness and striking are other important areas to train. He adds that bjj is valuable because it is trained with resistance as is boxing. He seems to also advocate krav but adds that the "deadly strikes" at soft targets can't be trained with resistance.


This is a really good point, but the term here is 'resistance'. There are many ways you can train with resistance and I don't believe that the stand up sparring that some people advocate is anywhere near the best on when it comes to a violent street attack. 

Here is another opinion from BJJ guys on using BJJ for self defence.


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## K-man

Mephisto said:


> Bjj and ground fighting are unique in that a small trained person can have quite an advantage on a larger untrained person on the ground. It's one of the few arts to really level the playing field between men and women.


Here I can agree and disagree. I'm not sure I agree that the smaller person has the advantage on the ground. What they are training are ways of reducing the advantage that a bigger, stronger opponent inherently possesses. However BJJ is not unique in this area. If it were the case we would have no women training in other martial arts for other than competition where the bigger opponent is in a different weight class. Aikido is an art that comes to mind where a bigger opponent isn't an issue.

The problem with Aikido is not that it isn't effective. It is that it takes so long to be proficient. That same problem exists with BJJ. It has become so complex that it takes years to become proficient. That is were less complex arts like boxing are, in my opinion, better suited for street SD. If you want to step that up a notch you have Krav which is better because it is still relatively simple but trains all ranges and includes escaping from the ground. But boxing definitely gives the advantage to the bigger person as is the normal situation in Krav training, unless you realise that and tailor the training accordingly.




Mephisto said:


> But what about the broken glass, and aids needles on the ground? The hordes of multiple opponents? Training in ground fighting gives you the training necessary to control and change your position. If you end up on your back (beyond your control) you'll have the ability to sweep and get up or change your position.


I think that broken glass and needles on the ground are a red herring. Certainly the ground may be uneven or slippery but that would generally be it. Stones on the ground are perhaps a greater issue if you aren't inside but again, not particularly relevant. Multiple attackers are much more likely and that is an area where BJJ is at a distinct disadvantage. The last thing you want against multiple opponents is to be on the ground. Again, people training for competition, particularly high level competition will have no need for that type of training, yet other arts with a focus on personal protection will train for it regularly. Having friends to back him up gives a lot of 'courage' to the idiot who wants to start a fight. If he gets into trouble his mates step in and the next thing you know is waking up in hospital, if you are lucky.



Mephisto said:


> As for multiple opponents? Good luck, without I weapon I don't think any art will give a smaller person an advantage. But it's still a scenario worth training.


I disagree a little on both counts (lack of chance against multiple attackers and weapons) and agree on the need to train it. Now I can only speak from my own training but from reading posts in other threads I know I am not alone when I say that other arts train regularly against both multiple opponents and weapons. In Australia, guns are not as likely to be a problem as knives. We train gun disarms every week or so but we train against knives every session. That is even in a so called TMA. We also train in a way that allows a smaller person to control a larger person. That's not to say a smaller person is better training in 'XYZ' than BJJ, just that BJJ is not alone in providing training for smaller people against a larger opponent.



Mephisto said:


> Bjj is a specialty worth training, that or another art that has proven success in grappling. When you roll with resisting opponents regularly there's no speculation about how you'd apply your skill you've done it over and over.


Rolling with resisting opponents is great but so is stand up grappling with resisting opponents. In a SD situation I'd much rather be standing up grappling than being on the floor grappling. When you can successfully grapple standing with a bigger resisting opponent there is no speculation either as to how you could expect it to work against an unskilled opponent in a street environment. The advantage standing is that you can still move to use your opponent as a shield if necessary, something you can't do on the ground.



Mephisto said:


> No training will ever 100% simulate reality. You can limit rules and roll or spar hard and learn to control an aggressive opponent or you can lighten the intensity and wirk more combative techniques. Both are a good approach to self defense. I personally value the ability to control an aggressive attacker first by trsinibg regular sparring.


Agree 100%, but this applies to any martial art that is taught properly. But here is an interesting point. You say you must have regular sparring. What exactly do you meaning by sparring?


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## hoshin1600

Tony Dismukes said:


> In other words, BJJ does not have the answer for a surprise attack by a gang of murderous armed thugs. Neither does Goju ryu, Wing Chun, Krav Maga, Ba Gua, or any other martial art.



while i agree with Tony's point of view that real true violence is never a "fair" fight,  i must stop there and question..if we are civilized people who do not go out looking for bar fights, what the heck are we training for?
 real violence happens every day in every part of the world.  
_warning the following contains graphic content_
Cheshire Connecticut home invasion murders - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Man shot during home invasion two young children unharmed abc13.com
3-year-old shot and killed in suspected home invasion

there are many many violent crimes everyday.  it really bothers me when martial artists say "well you cant train for things like that" or  "no art has the answer for surprise attacks like that"    *then what the heck are you trianing for!!*  if you dont count the terrorist attacks,, and you dont count the movie theater mass shootings or a home invasion by armed gang members  what else is there?  i seriously think many people forget or dont know what real violence consists of.
i cant quote the originator of this statement but "_most martial arts is more about fear managment than risk managment"_
which means most martial art schools are more about making you feel good rather than dealing with the real issues of violence.

while training in BJJ may make you feel like a "MAN"   and satisfy your inner monkey,  the real question is not how "effective" it is but rather how useful is it for real violent situations?  effectiveness VS usefulness and relavancy is a big difference.
the rubber guard and arm bar may be very effective but how relevent is it when someone rings your doorbell and pushes your door open enough to get his leg in and then reaches in with the gun and shoots your 8 y'o daughter, continues to push that door open and two men rush in slamming you with a baseball bat. those first 60 seconds of a home invasion will have a violent intensity that is like being in the middle of a tornado. you wont know what side is up. all you will know is your little girl is bleeding to death in the corner and there isnt a damn thing you can do about it.

no doubt there will be some who read my words and scoff, yeah go ahead stroke your ego and make all the "bad thoughts" go away.
BJJ has a few good ideas and a few things worth training over and over until they are hard wired but so does every art.  fighting technique is only one component of an over all protection plan.  many will feel their art is the best and will put their faith in the chosen art.  but when realty comes knocking many will feel like Linus without his security blanket.


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## K-man

hoshin1600 said:


> there are many many violent crimes everyday.  it really bothers me when martial artists say "well you cant train for things like that" or  "no art has the answer for surprise attacks like that"    *then what the heck are you trianing for!!*  if you dont count the terrorist attacks,, and you dont count the movie theater mass shootings or a home invasion by armed gang members  what else is there?  i seriously think many people forget or dont know what real violence consists of.


Great point. In Australia, we recently had a cafe siege where a number of hostages thankfully escaped, others were rescued after a shootout with police but unfortunately two innocent people lost their lives. The guy had a sawn off shotgun. On numerous occasions he was in the position where a trained person could have disarmed him. We are training to counter violence, that is what RB means. We train using a replica sawn off shotgun. How does BJJ work here?


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## Tony Dismukes

Mephisto said:


> Bjj and ground fighting are unique in that a small trained person can have quite an advantage on a larger untrained person on the ground.





K-man said:


> Here I can agree and disagree. I'm not sure I agree that the smaller person has the advantage on the ground.



The idea that groundfighting and/or BJJ give the advantage to a smaller trained person against a larger untrained person has been somewhat overstated. Size gives an advantage, whether standing or on the ground.

There is _some_ truth to the idea, however. Groundfighting is a highly technical area and most* people have bad intuitions about how to move safely on the ground. It's less intuitive than stand up fighting. Therefore a completely untrained person is more likely to make mistakes that cause them to lose quickly on the ground then they would standing up.

*(Most, but not all. I occasionally encounter untrained people who have good natural instincts on the ground.)



K-man said:


> The problem with Aikido is not that it isn't effective. It is that it takes so long to be proficient. That same problem exists with BJJ. It has become so complex that it takes years to become proficient. That is were less complex arts like boxing are, in my opinion, better suited for street SD.



This I will disagree with. In 6-12 months I can teach most people to reliably use fundamental BJJ techniques in a fight. Not saying I can turn them into unbeatable fighting machines, but the basics will be usable under stress.

(BTW - the more I study boxing, the less I regard it as a simple art. It may not have the breadth of BJJ, but it is remarkably deep.)


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## Mephisto

K-man said:


> Here I can agree and disagree. I'm not sure I agree that the smaller person has the advantage on the ground. What they are training are ways of reducing the advantage that a bigger, stronger opponent inherently possesses. However BJJ is not unique in this area. If it were the case we would have no women training in other martial arts for other than competition where the bigger opponent is in a different weight class. Aikido is an art that comes to mind where a bigger opponent isn't an issue.


Aikido is an art that can't really be trained with resistance, it would probably be much too dangerous. I say the same for the FMA I do, there are standing locks and breaks but they have to be applied hard and fast, if you hesitate or let the opponent tap he may submit or take advantage of your politeness and escape. You can train the moves with some resistance and intensity but not at the intensity that bjj can be applied. A lot of arts claim to help a smaller person overcome a larger person but bjj and judo are the best examples I can bring forward. I have yet to see video of any aikido being trained with the level resistance seen in regular bjj rolling. This isn't to say it doesn't exist, I'd certainly like to see it, I just haven't seen it. I've trained with several aikido guys and I like the moves they've shown me, but much of it doesn't seem like it would work in a bjj format with resistance, you'd really have to disregard the safety of your partner to apply it. Which is why I think aikido is a good compliment to bjj, learn to control the opponent first w bjj and you have it to fall back on if your more combative aikido grappling fails.


K-man said:


> The problem with Aikido is not that it isn't effective. It is that it takes so long to be proficient. That same problem exists with BJJ. It has become so complex that it takes years to become proficient. That is were less complex arts like boxing are, in my opinion, better suited for street SD. If you want to step that up a notch you have Krav which is better because it is still relatively simple but trains all ranges and includes escaping from the ground. But boxing definitely gives the advantage to the bigger person as is the normal situation in Krav training, unless you realise that and tailor the training accordingly.


I'd only say krav gives an advantage with the situational training it may offer. And it may have combative advantage if a decent level of sparring is implemented. To my knowledge many krav schools don't participte in hard sparring, in which even with soft targets allowed I'd give a boxer with lots of sparring experience the combative advantage.



K-man said:


> I think that broken glass and needles on the ground are a red herring. Certainly the ground may be uneven or slippery but that would generally be it. Stones on the ground are perhaps a greater issue if you aren't inside but again, not particularly relevant. Multiple attackers are much more likely and that is an area where BJJ is at a distinct disadvantage. The last thing you want against multiple opponents is to be on the ground. Again, people training for competition, particularly high level competition will have no need for that type of training, yet other arts with a focus on personal protection will train for it regularly. Having friends to back him up gives a lot of 'courage' to the idiot who wants to start a fight. If he gets into trouble his mates step in and the next thing you know is waking up in hospital, if you are lucky.


Broken glass and needles are a red herring added in jest because some people really site these as reasons bjj is not effective in the street. Even if you do train multiple attacker scenarios the odds are against you. You can get attacked from behind just as easily standing as you can on the ground. As tony mentioned awareness is the factor that will protect you, although it may be harder to disengage from the ground. But again training bjj doesn't mean you have to take every fight to the ground, it's an answer to what to do if you end up their against your will. 


K-man said:


> I disagree a little on both counts (lack of chance against multiple attackers and weapons) and agree on the need to train it. Now I can only speak from my own training but from reading posts in other threads I know I am not alone when I say that other arts train regularly against both multiple opponents and weapons. In Australia, guns are not as likely to be a problem as knives. We train gun disarms every week or so but we train against knives every session. That is even in a so called TMA. We also train in a way that allows a smaller person to control a larger person. That's not to say a smaller person is better training in 'XYZ' than BJJ, just that BJJ is not alone in providing training for smaller people against a larger opponent.


A separate discussion on gun disarms may be needed, I think they're largely overrated and have very limited opportunities of useful application. For example the attacker must be very close. They may be worth training but I don't think they're as vital as some claim they are.


K-man said:


> Rolling with resisting opponents is great but so is stand up grappling with resisting opponents. In a SD situation I'd much rather be standing up grappling than being on the floor grappling. When you can successfully grapple standing with a bigger resisting opponent there is no speculation either as to how you could expect it to work against an unskilled opponent in a street environment. The advantage standing is that you can still move to use your opponent as a shield if necessary, something you can't do on the ground.
> 
> Agree 100%, but this applies to any martial art that is taught properly. But here is an interesting point. You say you must have regular sparring. What exactly do you meaning by sparring?


I agree for self sdefense standing is best but If you're gonna train gun disarms you might as well train ground fighting as you're far more likely to end up on the ground in a fight than you are to be held at gunpoint with the gun within your reach. 


hoshin1600 said:


> while i agree with Tony's point of view that real true violence is never a "fair" fight,  i must stop there and question..if we are civilized people who do not go out looking for bar fights, what the heck are we training for?
> real violence happens every day in every part of the world.
> _warning the following contains graphic content_
> Cheshire Connecticut home invasion murders - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> Man shot during home invasion two young children unharmed abc13.com
> 3-year-old shot and killed in suspected home invasion
> 
> there are many many violent crimes everyday.  it really bothers me when martial artists say "well you cant train for things like that" or  "no art has the answer for surprise attacks like that"    *then what the heck are you trianing for!!*  if you dont count the terrorist attacks,, and you dont count the movie theater mass shootings or a home invasion by armed gang members  what else is there?  i seriously think many people forget or dont know what real violence consists of.
> i cant quote the originator of this statement but "_most martial arts is more about fear managment than risk managment"_
> which means most martial art schools are more about making you feel good rather than dealing with the real issues of violence.
> 
> while training in BJJ may make you feel like a "MAN"   and satisfy your inner monkey,  the real question is not how "effective" it is but rather how useful is it for real violent situations?  effectiveness VS usefulness and relavancy is a big difference.
> the rubber guard and arm bar may be very effective but how relevent is it when someone rings your doorbell and pushes your door open enough to get his leg in and then reaches in with the gun and shoots your 8 y'o daughter, continues to push that door open and two men rush in slamming you with a baseball bat. those first 60 seconds of a home invasion will have a violent intensity that is like being in the middle of a tornado. you wont know what side is up. all you will know is your little girl is bleeding to death in the corner and there isnt a damn thing you can do about it.
> 
> no doubt there will be some who read my words and scoff, yeah go ahead stroke your ego and make all the "bad thoughts" go away.
> BJJ has a few good ideas and a few things worth training over and over until they are hard wired but so does every art.  fighting technique is only one component of an over all protection plan.  many will feel their art is the best and will put their faith in the chosen art.  but when realty comes knocking many will feel like Linus without his security blanket.
> View attachment 19214


You've been watching too much Fear based media News, a home invasion is possible but a group of men busting in your front door? Unless you're holding your gun at the time you're probably f****ed, what martial art is going to provide you with a high percentage chance of taking out multiple armed opponents during a home invasion. Are you saying that going for a gogoplatta against several  armed attackers is a bad strategy? We'd better get a memo out to bjj head quarters fast!


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## Tony Dismukes

hoshin1600 said:


> there are many many violent crimes everyday. it really bothers me when martial artists say "well you cant train for things like that" or "no art has the answer for surprise attacks like that" *then what the heck are you trianing for!!* if you dont count the terrorist attacks,, and you dont count the movie theater mass shootings or a home invasion by armed gang members what else is there?



Here we get into a fundamental fact of human psychology: people are bad at evaluating risk.

Terrorist attacks, mass shootings, and home invasions by armed gangs make the news because they are scary and unusual.  Statistically speaking, however, you are more likely to be killed by lightning than by a terrorist.  If you are spending thousands of hours of hard training because you are afraid of a highly unlikely event that you will a) probably never encounter in your life and b) would have only a small chance of successfully handling with your martial arts training, then that is a poor allocation of your available resources.

If you are that determined to protect yourself and your family, you are better off devoting that time and energy and money towards the factors that are actually likely to kill you, i.e.:

Improve your diet and exercise: Heart disease and diabetes kill more people than 2000 times as many people each year in the U.S. as terrorists, mass shootings, and home invasions put together.

Take a defensive driving course: tens of thousands of people die from traffic accidents in the U.S. every year.

Take care of your mental health: suicide is the 10th most common cause of death in the U.S.

Teach your kids how to swim.

Heck - take the time to fix that loose step on the back steps. It's more likely to kill you than terrorists or a home invading gang.


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## Mephisto

K-man said:


> Great point. In Australia, we recently had a cafe siege where a number of hostages thankfully escaped, others were rescued after a shootout with police but unfortunately two innocent people lost their lives. The guy had a sawn off shotgun. On numerous occasions he was in the position where a trained person could have disarmed him. We are training to counter violence, that is what RB means. We train using a replica sawn off shotgun. How does BJJ work here?


I think grabbing and controlling a weapon is instinctive, not that it shouldn't be trained though. It's not a bad idea, but I don't think a bjj guy is just going to lay down in die when facing a shotgun.  I've seen a few videos of store clerks snatching away a weapon from an armed robber.


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## K-man

Mephisto said:


> I agree for self defense standing is best but If you're gonna train gun disarms you might as well train ground fighting as you're far more likely to end up on the ground in a fight than you are to be held at gunpoint with the gun within your reach.


This is true, you are far more likely to end up on the ground than at the point of a gun. However, that is why we train regularly to regain our feet if we are taken to the ground, not training to stay on the ground. We train more on the ground than against guns and we train more against knives than the other two. I believe that the more complex BJJ has become for competition, the less suited it is for the street due to the belief that you can take your time to manoeuvre your opponent to submission. In reality, the longer you are on the ground the more chance someone will come to his assistance. Sure, you might have mates as well and it ends up as a general melee but that's perhaps less likely and more what we call a consensual fight.


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## Mephisto

Tony Dismukes said:


> Here we get into a fundamental fact of human psychology: people are bad at evaluating risk.
> 
> Terrorist attacks, mass shootings, and home invasions by armed gangs make the news because they are scary and unusual.  Statistically speaking, however, you are more likely to be killed by lightning than by a terrorist.  If you are spending thousands of hours of hard training because you are afraid of a highly unlikely event that you will a) probably never encounter in your life and b) would have only a small chance of successfully handling with your martial arts training, then that is a poor allocation of your available resources.
> 
> If you are that determined to protect yourself and your family, you are better off devoting that time and energy and money towards the factors that are actually likely to kill you, i.e.:
> 
> Improve your diet and exercise: Heart disease and diabetes kill more people than 2000 times as many people each year in the U.S. as terrorists, mass shootings, and home invasions put together.
> 
> Take a defensive driving course: tens of thousands of people die from traffic accidents in the U.S. every year.
> 
> Take care of your mental health: suicide is the 10th most common cause of death in the U.S.
> 
> Teach your kids how to swim.
> 
> Heck - take the time to fix that loose step on the back steps. It's more likely to kill you than terrorists or a home invading gang.


Or just get attack dogs, of course those dogs may be more likely to attack your a loved one than you are likely to get attacked. Heck all the money I've spent in martial arts I could easily take back and spend on home security.


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## K-man

Tony Dismukes said:


> Here we get into a fundamental fact of human psychology: people are bad at evaluating risk.
> 
> Terrorist attacks, mass shootings, and home invasions by armed gangs make the news because they are scary and unusual.  Statistically speaking, however, you are more likely to be killed by lightning than by a terrorist.  If you are spending thousands of hours of hard training because you are afraid of a highly unlikely event that you will a) probably never encounter in your life and b) would have only a small chance of successfully handling with your martial arts training, then that is a poor allocation of your available resources.


Yes, but that brings us to the point of our training. If we are training for competition, great. If you are training for fitness then there are probably fifty better ways to achieve that. If you are training a martial art specifically for self defence you need to cover most bases. Guns and knives are common place, home invasions although not common do happen, attacks by gangs probably mean you are in the wrong place. Personally, I doubt I will ever have to use my skills. I train for a whole heap of reasons but principally because I am intrigued by the whole martial art scene. If I were to train BJJ it would be because I would find the moves and counter moves fascinating. But I certainly wouldn't train BJJ if what I primarily wanted was self defence.


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## K-man

Mephisto said:


> Or just get attack dogs, of course those dogs may be more likely to attack your a loved one than you are likely to get attacked. Heck all the money I've spent in martial arts I could easily take back and spend on home security.


I have the attack dogs. I hope they recognise danger or they are going to try to lick my attacker to death! Bloody German Shepherds ... all bark and no bite, or maybe I didn't train them right.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> I disagree a little on both counts (lack of chance against multiple attackers and weapons) and agree on the need to train it. Now I can only speak from my own training but from reading posts in other threads I know I am not alone when I say that other arts train regularly against both multiple opponents and weapons



Here is tricky. I have done this at my club and against two guys who can grapple and don't care if they get hit on the way in the fight is over too soon to apply a defence.


----------



## Tez3

A home invasion around our way is when you leave your door open and the sheep come in.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Yes, but that brings us to the point of our training. If we are training for competition, great. If you are training for fitness then there are probably fifty better ways to achieve that. If you are training a martial art specifically for self defence you need to cover most bases. Guns and knives are common place, home invasions although not common do happen, attacks by gangs probably mean you are in the wrong place. Personally, I doubt I will ever have to use my skills. I train for a whole heap of reasons but principally because I am intrigued by the whole martial art scene. If I were to train BJJ it would be because I would find the moves and counter moves fascinating. But I certainly wouldn't train BJJ if what I primarily wanted was self defence.



That is not really what he is trying to say there though.

If we looked at risk objectively we would be training to not fall off ladders and be able to tell the difference between eyewash and superglue. Not knife defence.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

drop bear said:


> That is not really what he is trying to say there though.
> 
> If we looked at risk objectively we would be training to not fall off ladders and be able to tell the difference between eyewash and superglue. Not knife defence.


Don't try to use the eyewash while standing on a ladder until you reach black belt. That's an advanced technique.


----------



## FriedRice

Most people are just ignorant as to what BJJ really is, in terms of how it ties into MMA and the evolution of MMA and BJJ, separately and together. BJJ isn't even considered to be MMA. It's a significant component of MMA that can be argued to be an essential one, but it's not MMA; unless this was 20+ years ago.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

FriedRice said:


> Most people are just ignorant as to what BJJ really is, in terms of how it ties into MMA and the evolution of MMA and BJJ, separately and together. BJJ isn't even considered to be MMA. It's a significant component of MMA that can be argued to be an essential one, but it's not MMA; unless this was 20+ years ago.


Eh, most people are ignorant of the nature and history of just about _all _martial arts. BJJ is hardly an exception. On this forum we have enough highly experienced martial artists to work on alleviating that ignorance somewhat.


----------



## MJS

K-man said:


> Over the past 18 months, every thread where we have tried to discuss Karate, Aikido, Wing Chun or any other martial art you'd like to name, eventually it has turned into an arguement where it is pointed out how BJJ or MMA is so much better and the training inherent in any other style is vastly inferior to the sport based styles that spar. Even more, even those that spar are inferior because they don't have a specialised ground game of BJJ.
> 
> Now I happen to think that BJJ is a great martial art and MMA is great for anyone who wants to test themselves in the relatively safe environment of the ring, but how effective is BJJ in the street?
> 
> I'll start out by saying that BJJ, like many martial arts, is mostly taught in a way that produces excellent fighters for the ring but does not prepare you for the street.
> 
> Let's put BJJ under the microscope without style bashing please.



The vast majority of BJJ schools that I've seen in my area, while they are all good quality, all are focused on the sport/competing aspect.  Matt Bryers, one of the members here, has posted some clips of his Kobukai JJ, that he teaches, which is geared more for stand up/street application, although there is ground elements to it, it is different from the usual BJJ.  IMO, mixing the 2, would be a big plus.

Everyone is different, but for me, in a street situation, I'd say avoiding the ground is the best option.  Yeah, I know BJJ's strong point is the ground, but to intentionally go there...sorry, but that's just crazy IMO.  If you end up there by default...sure, ok, do what you have to do to get back up.  But that's not the time to prolong the ground game, for the reasons that have been talked about endlessly. LOL.  

I do feel that having an understanding of the ground, is key, to SD.  Are there BJJ gyms out there that also teach more of a street format?  Don't know.  If not, I'm sure it'd be fairly simple to possibly modify things as needed, for a street situation.


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> Over the past 18 months, every thread where we have tried to discuss Karate, Aikido, Wing Chun or any other martial art you'd like to name, eventually it has turned into an arguement where it is pointed out how BJJ or MMA is so much better and the training inherent in any other style is vastly inferior to the sport based styles that spar. Even more, even those that spar are inferior because they don't have a specialised ground game of BJJ.
> 
> Now I happen to think that BJJ is a great martial art and MMA is great for anyone who wants to test themselves in the relatively safe environment of the ring, but how effective is BJJ in the street?
> 
> I'll start out by saying that BJJ, like many martial arts, is mostly taught in a way that produces excellent fighters for the ring but does not prepare you for the street.
> 
> Let's put BJJ under the microscope without style bashing please.



Frankly, Bjj is highly effective in the street. If you check out some of the Gracie schools (and other schools), you'll learn takedowns, headlock defenses, throws, standing locks/breaks, and a variety of variations to ground fighting that are applicable to street situations. 

I think one of the big misconceptions of Bjj is that its only effective on the ground, or that it only teaches you to fight on the ground. In fact, Bjj teaches you to fight from all ranges, and how to handle yourself against people trying to punch or kick you, or someone trying to grab you. 

The main difference I see between Bjj and other martial arts is that Bjj is all about retaining/absorbing what works, and discarding what doesn't work. Bjj keeps nothing because of tradition, and absorbs whatever comes along to make the art as a whole better. If it doesn't work, we're not doing it, whereas many martial arts will continue utilizing outmoded techniques and principles just because their "master" taught it to them.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Tony Dismukes said:


> Here we get into a fundamental fact of human psychology: people are bad at evaluating risk.
> 
> Terrorist attacks, mass shootings, and home invasions by armed gangs make the news because they are scary and unusual.  Statistically speaking, however, you are more likely to be killed by lightning than by a terrorist.  If you are spending thousands of hours of hard training because you are afraid of a highly unlikely event that you will a) probably never encounter in your life and b) would have only a small chance of successfully handling with your martial arts training, then that is a poor allocation of your available resources.
> 
> If you are that determined to protect yourself and your family, you are better off devoting that time and energy and money towards the factors that are actually likely to kill you, i.e.:
> 
> Improve your diet and exercise: Heart disease and diabetes kill more people than 2000 times as many people each year in the U.S. as terrorists, mass shootings, and home invasions put together.
> 
> Take a defensive driving course: tens of thousands of people die from traffic accidents in the U.S. every year.
> 
> Take care of your mental health: suicide is the 10th most common cause of death in the U.S.
> 
> Teach your kids how to swim.
> 
> Heck - take the time to fix that loose step on the back steps. It's more likely to kill you than terrorists or a home invading gang.



*Agree on many levels Tony*.  I totally believe in teaching your kids to swim, taking a defensive driving course, diet, exercise and so much more.  However in my martial training I also believe in being well developed in all areas from weapons/tools, kicking, hand strikes, trapping hands and joint manipulation and grappling.  I have also been active in firearms training way before I even went through the police academy and I am an active ccw person. (I carry 24/7)  Even though mass shooting, home invasions, terrorism, etc. are a small percentage of what I train for they are in the mix and yes because of my background and training I will have *"a chance"* god forbid some thing ever happens.   I personally believe we should try to be as prepared for lots of possibilities in our martial training.

I also believe that BJJ can be very effective and I mean very effective with the right training in BJJ and it's core self defense skill sets as Helio Gracie designed it.  That and also of course the right mind set geared towards personal protection.

Your advice though is good to prioritize and take care of other things besides your martial training!   Really bad idea not to take care of your health and be a poor driver!


----------



## hoshin1600

I think many people missed my point.  I hear everyone talking about "street effectiveness" yet no one has defined what that is. My own personal risk assessment will be very different than someone else.  My own personal chance of getting into an altercation with a drunk at a bar is close to zero. Because I don't drink and I don't go to bars. My own personal experience with home invasions is much higher I have had 3 incidents and the one I cited I use as an example because it happened less than 20 minutes from my home. My wife is from another country so traveling internationally with my family is more of a risk factor for a terrorist attack then most people.  The more international travel equals higher risk.
So again people need to stop saying "oh that will never happen" which is denial, and start asking themselves ....ok what might happen?  The OP question was about the effectiveness of BJJ but until you define the type of risk you are talking about you are talking  out your butt...in all likelihood BJJ is more effective in preventing my heart attack  than keeping my loved ones safe.


----------



## Hanzou

hoshin1600 said:


> I think many people missed my point.  I hear everyone talking about "street effectiveness" yet no one has defined what that is. My own personal risk assessment will be very different than someone else.  My own personal chance of getting into an altercation with a drunk at a bar is close to zero. Because I don't drink and I don't go to bars. My own personal experience with home invasions is much higher I have had 3 incidents and the one I cited I use as an example because it happened less than 20 minutes from my home. My wife is from another country so traveling internationally with my family is more of a risk factor for a terrorist attack then most people.  The more international travel equals higher risk.
> So again people need to stop saying "oh that will never happen" which is denial, and start asking themselves ....ok what might happen?  The OP question was about the effectiveness of BJJ but until you define the type of risk you are talking about you are talking  out your butt...in all likelihood BJJ is more effective in preventing my heart attack  than keeping my loved ones safe.



Against one or two unarmed people? A person skilled in Gjj should do just fine.

Against an armed team of terrorists? No martial art is going to help you. Call the police.


----------



## K-man

MJS said:


> I do feel that having an understanding of the ground, is key, to SD.  Are there BJJ gyms out there that also teach more of a street format?  Don't know.  If not, I'm sure it'd be fairly simple to possibly modify things as needed, for a street situation.


There are BJJ schools teaching street tactics but they consider that poles apart from the sport based BJJ.


----------



## hoshin1600

That's my part of my point Hanzou. . Until you define the situation everyone is talking about different things.  It's the same argument people make about guns and rape defense. Once you get to the fact that most rapes happen in the womens own home by someone they know the gun as a means of defense seems less effective.


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Frankly, Bjj is highly effective in the street. If you check out *some* of the Gracie schools (and other schools), you'll learn takedowns, headlock defenses, throws, standing locks/breaks, and a variety of variations to ground fighting that are applicable to street situations.


What about the rest of the schools?



Hanzou said:


> I think one of the big misconceptions of Bjj is that its only effective on the ground, or that it only teaches you to fight on the ground. In fact, Bjj teaches you to fight from all ranges, and how to handle yourself against people trying to punch or kick you, or someone trying to grab you.


All schools do that?



Hanzou said:


> The main difference I see between Bjj and other martial arts is that Bjj is all about retaining/absorbing what works, and discarding what doesn't work. Bjj keeps nothing because of tradition, and absorbs whatever comes along to make the art as a whole better. If it doesn't work, we're not doing it, whereas many martial arts will continue utilizing outmoded techniques and principles just because their "master" taught it to them.


Oh dear! Can't leave that out can you? BJJ is better than the others!  OK, let's accept that BJJ is the best thing that ever happened and stick to analysing BJJ without bagging other methods of training.


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Against an armed team of terrorists? No martial art is going to help you. Call the police.


Great idea! That must have taken some brainstorming. The problem is, the police are on the outside and the hostages are inside with the gunman.


----------



## K-man

Mephisto said:


> I think grabbing and controlling a weapon is instinctive, not that it shouldn't be trained though. It's not a bad idea, but I don't think a bjj guy is just going to lay down in die when facing a shotgun.  I've seen a few videos of store clerks snatching away a weapon from an armed robber.


And I have seen first hand when an unskilled person tried to disarm a guy armed with a Lee Enfield .303 loaded with blanks. He ended up in hospital with severe stomach wounds. There are a lot of pitfalls in weapon disarms.


----------



## Mephisto

hoshin1600 said:


> I think many people missed my point.  I hear everyone talking about "street effectiveness" yet no one has defined what that is. My own personal risk assessment will be very different than someone else.  My own personal chance of getting into an altercation with a drunk at a bar is close to zero. Because I don't drink and I don't go to bars. My own personal experience with home invasions is much higher I have had 3 incidents and the one I cited I use as an example because it happened less than 20 minutes from my home. My wife is from another country so traveling internationally with my family is more of a risk factor for a terrorist attack then most people.  The more international travel equals higher risk.
> So again people need to stop saying "oh that will never happen" which is denial, and start asking themselves ....ok what might happen?  The OP question was about the effectiveness of BJJ but until you define the type of risk you are talking about you are talking  out your butt...in all likelihood BJJ is more effective in preventing my heart attack  than keeping my loved ones safe.


Well what relating to martial arts do you recommend for handling multiple armed home invaders? I'll agree that most BJJ schools will fall short of equipping you for this situation, so will 99% of other martial arts schools. I have met some martial artist LEOs and a guy from SWAT who probably do offer training that would be beneficial in your scenario, but talking "BJJ on the street" or any other art "on the street" not much is gonna prepare you for that. You're better off with ccw classes and doing drills to secure and clear your house, this is another skill completely separate fro martial arts, there may be some cross over but I'd say its minimal. 



K-man said:


> And I have seen first hand when an unskilled person tried to disarm a guy armed with a Lee Enfield .303 loaded with blanks. He ended up in hospital with severe stomach wounds. There are a lot of pitfalls in weapon disarms.


I agree a lot can go wrong. I've seen videos of presumably untrained people disarming guns and it working out for them too, I'm sure you've seen them. Any weapon disarm is risky for that matter, GJJ actually trains a few, and they're similar to the disarms i've seen in FMA and other systems, no better, no worse.


----------



## hoshin1600

Mephisto, 
We can all agree that somtimes MA training falls short and I am not one to argue that.  But the premise of the thread is the effectiveness of BJJ in a street self defense situation.  Since I have asked a few times now for an example of what that would look like and no one has answered I am left with only my own idea of what a violent attack could consist of and how  BJJ would fit into that framework. In order to show that BJJ is effective there has to be a context other than just saying "because it works"  I have given a situation of two men, one with a baseball bat forcing their way into your kitchen.  A very fast moving and very violent attack.  In my world if I am at home so too would be my children so that has to be taken into account as well. I do not see any of my ground work skills being used here.


----------



## Hanzou

hoshin1600 said:


> That's my part of my point Hanzou. . Until you define the situation everyone is talking about different things.  It's the same argument people make about guns and rape defense. Once you get to the fact that most rapes happen in the womens own home by someone they know the gun as a means of defense seems less effective.



Well like I said, in most cases, if you're fighting someone unarmed, you should do just fine with Bjj. Maybe even more than one person, depending on how much of a badass you are. Like Renzo Gracie or Bas Rutten, both who supposedly used their Bjj skills in multiple attacker situations.


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> What about the rest of the schools?



You'd have to check out their individual websites. Gjj schools should be utilizing the combatants program though. Can't really think of any that don't at this moment.



> All schools do that?



Again, you would need to check their individual websites. I personally haven't run across a Gjj- affiliated school that doesn't practice that, but I could be wrong. It's how I was taught Bjj, and I really can't imagine not being taught those fundamentals.



> Oh dear! Can't leave that out can you? BJJ is better than the others!  OK, let's accept that BJJ is the best thing that ever happened and stick to analysing BJJ without bagging other methods of training.



That particular comment pertains to fighting only. Don't you and others believe that fighting isn't an important part of MA?


----------



## Drose427

While there is definitely a good point even from Sport BJJ that translates to SD, there still a decent bit that needs to adapted or not focused on for SD.

Off the top of my head, A gogoplata is very much the groundfighting equivalent of a Tornado kick. It can definitely be used in the perfect situation especially in competitions, but isnt the most practical submission by any stretch of the imagination. I personally havent seen it used even in the competitions Ive been to.

I can only think of one time it was even used in UFC. 

Omoplatas also arent terribly common, but you'll see them now and again.

The "keep only what works, discard what doesnt" isnt as much of a BJJ principle as it is MMA.

Even though we dont see Gogoplatas and omoplatas in the same number as we see Armbars and Triangles, theyre still actively taught. If they were nearly as practical (notice how im not  saying effective, _if_ you can get them theyll work) or common we'd see them a lot more. But theyre still taught, if BJJ was all about "discarding what doesnt work" why teach anything other than the most practical moves?



Hanzou said:


> Well like I said, in most cases, if you're fighting someone unarmed, you should do just fine with Bjj. Maybe even more than one person, depending on how much of a badass you are. Like Renzo Gracie or Bas Rutten, both who supposedly used their Bjj skills in multiple attacker situations.



Well first off Id question the anecdotes of anyone that close to the founding of a style tied to that persons founding name. If there were a bunch of other corraborating thats different, but name one person whos founded an MA that they want to be commercially and widely spread that doesnt fluff up their experiences.

Second, even if Bas Rutten is telling the truth and that did happen, its Bas Rutten. Your average MMA/TMA guy cant just sit there and get their head kicked in while trying to submit a guy..


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Well like I said, in most cases, if you're fighting someone unarmed, you should do just fine with Bjj. Maybe even more than one person, depending on how much of a badass you are. Like Renzo Gracie or Bas Rutten, both who supposedly used their Bjj skills in multiple attacker situations.



There are several reports of Bas applying his martial art skills, the most notable being his fight with bouncers in a Swedish club. He ended up in jail but was later cleared when it was established that the bouncers picked a fight with him. How they could have been so stupid is beyond me. Not a sign if BJJ there. Only stuff from his karate days, sorry.

BTW, did I tell you Bas is a hero of mine? I have a bit of his material. Top shelf stuff, not a lot of BJJ in but good street stuff nevertheless. I had the privilege of training with him a couple of years back but he was teaching mainly MMA type stand up with a very small amount of basic ground work.


Drose427 said:


> Second, even if Bas Rutten is telling the truth and that did happen, its Bas Rutten. Your average MMA/TMA guy cant just sit there and get their head kicked in while trying to submit a guy..


Bas doesn't sit there submitting people either. His punches to liver and spleen are legendary. Any fight with Bas in it .. I'm on his side.


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> While there is definitely a good point even from Sport BJJ that translates to SD, there still a decent bit that needs to adapted or not focused on for SD.
> 
> Off the top of my head, A gogoplata is very much the groundfighting equivalent of a Tornado kick. It can definitely be used in the perfect situation especially in competitions, but isnt the most practical submission by any stretch of the imagination. I personally havent seen it used even in the competitions Ive been to.
> 
> I can only think of one time it was even used in UFC.
> 
> Omoplatas also arent terribly common, but you'll see them now and again.
> 
> The "keep only what works, discard what doesnt" isnt as much of a BJJ principle as it is MMA.
> 
> Even though we dont see Gogoplatas and omoplatas in the same number as we see Armbars and Triangles, theyre still actively taught. If they were nearly as practical (notice how im not  saying effective, _if_ you can get them theyll work) or common we'd see them a lot more. But theyre still taught, if BJJ was all about "discarding what doesnt work" why teach anything other than the most practical moves?



Didn't you answer your own question? 

Because they work.

Honestly, I see quite a few Omoplatas outside of MMA, especially against untrained people. If you know what you're doing, an Omoplata can be surprisingly easy to pull off, especially since it can be utilized as a follow-up to a failed Kimura attempt from Guard.

I don't see too many Gogoplatas because you need a ridiculous amount of flexibility to get them off. I know 10th planet guys like to use it because they like to use Rubber Guard. I'm personally not a fan of it. My viewpoint on it is if you have the flexibility to do all of that, just go for a Triangle. 




> Well first off Id question the anecdotes of anyone that close to the founding of a style tied to that persons founding name. If there were a bunch of other corraborating thats different, but name one person whos founded an MA that they want to be commercially and widely spread that doesnt fluff up their experiences.



Well Renzo already has a successful group of schools, and is a pretty popular MMA figure, so those reasonings don't really fit in that situation.


As for Bas, I'm just going by what he said. :shrugs: If he says he used bjj to fight off multiple guys, I'm not arguing.


----------



## Drose427

K-man said:


> There are several reports of Bas applying his martial art skills, the most notable being his fight with bouncers in a Swedish club. He ended up in jail but was later cleared when it was established that the bouncers picked a fight with him. How they could have been so stupid is beyond me. Not a sign if BJJ there. Only stuff from his karate days, sorry.
> 
> BTW, did I tell you Bas is a hero of mine? I have a bit of his material. Top shelf stuff, not a lot of BJJ in but good street stuff nevertheless. I had the privilege of training with him a couple of years back but he was teaching mainly MMA type stand up with a very small amount of basic ground work.
> Bas doesn't sit there submitting people either. His punches to liver and spleen are legendary. Any fight with Bas in it .. I'm on his side.



I agree, Bas as a Martial Artist is a monster! Good blend of simple, rough scraping and TMA's. 

HOwever, Theres a specific video of him talking about using BJJ where as he was trying to submit a guy, the guys friend was just kicking him in the face and he took it until he could submit the first guy then moved on to the second






While Bas is.....well, Bas! Your average fellow training cant sit and get beaten while trying to submit one guy. He'll be K.O'ed or worse


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> There are several reports of Bas applying his martial art skills, the most notable being his fight with bouncers in a Swedish club. He ended up in jail but was later cleared when it was established that the bouncers picked a fight with him. How they could have been so stupid is beyond me. Not a sign if BJJ there. Only stuff from his karate days, sorry.








Like I said, who am I to argue?


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Didn't you answer your own question?
> 
> Because they work.
> 
> Honestly, I see quite a few Omoplatas outside of MMA, especially against untrained people. If you know what you're doing, an Omoplata can be surprisingly easy to pull off, especially since it can be utilized as a follow-up to a failed Kimura attempt from Guard.
> 
> I don't see too many Gogoplatas because you need a ridiculous amount of flexibility to get them off. I know 10th planet guys like to use it because they like to use Rubber Guard. I'm personally not a fan of it. My viewpoint on it is if you have the flexibility to do all of that, just go for a Triangle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well Renzo already has a successful group of schools, and is a pretty popular MMA figure, so those reasonings don't really fit in that situation.
> 
> 
> As for Bas, I'm just going by what he said. :shrugs: If he says he used bjj to fight off multiple guys, I'm not arguing.



Crescent kicks and jumping kicks work too. All of have been used in MMA for good results. But that doesnt make them the most practical, especially for SD.

Anything works in the perfect situation...

Renzo has that popularity and what not now, I was referring to the beginning of BJJ. It simply sounds like fluff to bring in students. Like, "99% of fights end up on the ground"

And Bas being able to take curbstomps while waiting for someone to pass out hardly correlates to your average joe doing it....

Im also curious, how did you learn omo/gogplata? From guard the leg comes of the head the same way as taught by the two schools Ive worked with guys from.


----------



## MJS

hoshin1600 said:


> I think many people missed my point.  I hear everyone talking about "street effectiveness" yet no one has defined what that is. My own personal risk assessment will be very different than someone else.  My own personal chance of getting into an altercation with a drunk at a bar is close to zero. Because I don't drink and I don't go to bars. My own personal experience with home invasions is much higher I have had 3 incidents and the one I cited I use as an example because it happened less than 20 minutes from my home. My wife is from another country so traveling internationally with my family is more of a risk factor for a terrorist attack then most people.  The more international travel equals higher risk.
> So again people need to stop saying "oh that will never happen" which is denial, and start asking themselves ....ok what might happen?  The OP question was about the effectiveness of BJJ but until you define the type of risk you are talking about you are talking  out your butt...in all likelihood BJJ is more effective in preventing my heart attack  than keeping my loved ones safe.



Likewise, my chances of an altercation with a drunk in a bar a near zero, for the same reasons as you.  I take yearly trips to NYC with my wife and sister, and my wife and I take a cruise every other year.  Of course, all of that stuff, IMO, falls under the common sense SD aspect.  Last year we went on a cruise.  One of the spots was Honduras.  Very reassuring, when you get off the boat and you're greeted by a sign on the dock, warning everyone of the high crime. LOL!  Yet, we encountered no issues.  I'm still alive and well, typing this message.   Common sense.  We stayed together, we went on a tour, through the cruise line, we didn't wander off on our own.  Even if I encountered a problem, going to the ground would be the last thing on my mind.  

BJJ, as I've said, is a very solid ground based art.  I feel that everyone should have the basics, at minimum.  If you want to keep going and get rank, that's cool too.   Just like anything we train, there's a time and a place for it.  I think it's safe to say that it's effective.  How you choose to use it, well, again, situation depending.


----------



## MJS

Hanzou said:


> The main difference I see between Bjj and other martial arts is that Bjj is all about retaining/absorbing what works, and discarding what doesn't work. Bjj keeps nothing because of tradition, and absorbs whatever comes along to make the art as a whole better. If it doesn't work, we're not doing it, whereas many martial arts will continue utilizing outmoded techniques and principles just because their "master" taught it to them.



Interestingly enough, I do that with every art that I've trained or currently train.  Yes, I still do those things for the sake of tradition, however, as I've said many times, I want to make sure that when I do works for ME!  I don't care if it has worked for my teacher, my teachers teacher, and his teacher...I'm not them...I'm ME!


----------



## MJS

hoshin1600 said:


> Mephisto,
> We can all agree that somtimes MA training falls short and I am not one to argue that.  But the premise of the thread is the effectiveness of BJJ in a street self defense situation.  Since I have asked a few times now for an example of what that would look like and no one has answered I am left with only my own idea of what a violent attack could consist of and how  BJJ would fit into that framework. In order to show that BJJ is effective there has to be a context other than just saying "because it works"  I have given a situation of two men, one with a baseball bat forcing their way into your kitchen.  A very fast moving and very violent attack.  In my world if I am at home so too would be my children so that has to be taken into account as well. I do not see any of my ground work skills being used here.



Well, I haven't given a specific scenario, because the possibilities are endless. I have however, said that like everything, we need to assess each situation, and choose our actions accordingly.  2 guys breaking into my house...no, grappling isn't an option.


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Crescent kicks and jumping kicks work too. All of have been used in MMA for good results. But that doesnt make them the most practical, especially for SD.
> 
> Anything works in the perfect situation...



Actually I would argue that the Omoplata is very practical. In some situations, its actually more practical than the kimura because it frees up your hands.



> Renzo has that popularity and what not now, I was referring to the beginning of BJJ. It simply sounds like fluff to bring in students. Like, "99% of fights end up on the ground"



That mugging took place 2 years ago.



> And Bas being able to take curbstomps while waiting for someone to pass out hardly correlates to your average joe doing it....



I don't think Bas was taking curb stomps. He said that he was choking some guy out, and evading kicks/attacks from his buds. He then went on to say to train Bjj because it definitely works.



> Im also curious, how did you learn omo/gogplata? From guard the leg comes of the head the same way as taught by the two schools Ive worked with guys from.



I never learned Gogoplata. I've been offered, but I'm not really interested in it. I'm not flexible enough, and frankly I think there's better chokes out there. Gogoplata is 10th planet stuff IMO.

Omoplata is different. I learned Omoplata as a continuation of Kimura, similar to this;










Again, I prefer Omoplata to Kimura because it leaves you in a better position.


----------



## Hanzou

MJS said:


> BJJ, as I've said, is a very solid ground based art.  I feel that everyone should have the basics, at minimum.  If you want to keep going and get rank, that's cool too.   Just like anything we train, there's a time and a place for it.  I think it's safe to say that it's effective.  How you choose to use it, well, again, situation depending.



As I said, I think the thing that gets missed from Bjj are the highly practical takedowns and throws within the system. You don't see it in the sport, but its a big part of standard Bjj practice.






Again, this stuff was the basics for me, so I'm always amazed that there's people out there that aren't aware of it.


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Like I said, who am I to argue?


This is interesting. 

Bas Rutten - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Talks about everything but not a mention of BJJ. Not even a mention of Jujutsu. There you go, with limited training he learned a collar choke. Hang on, I haven't trained BJJ either and I can choke people too, including the collar choke.


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> Bas Rutten - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> Talks about everything but not a mention of BJJ. Not even a mention of Jujutsu. There you go, with limited training he learned a collar choke. Hang on, I haven't trained BJJ either and I can choke people too, including the collar choke.



So we're to believe Wikipedia over Bas himself saying it?

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt....


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> As I said, I think the thing that gets missed from Bjj are the highly practical takedowns and throws within the system. You don't see it in the sport, but its a big part of standard Bjj practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this stuff was the basics for me, so I'm always amazed that there's people out there that aren't aware of it.


Hey I love it. I can't understand why people are unaware of it either, at least anyone who has done any traditional karate. Kansetsu geri to the knee, I prefer a slightly different kick to enter clinch and drop into Shiko dachi, basic karate stance as you would know, step to the front into Sanchin dachi taking note of the crescent step to get past the leg and a standard karate hip throw. BTW, these are bread and butter in Goju. We also do the foot trapping but in a way so that he goes to the ground but you don't have to if you prefer not.

Hey that's cool. Normally you're saying everyone else is taking BJJ stuff and here is pure karate, straight out of the bunkai. Classic!

Oh, BTW, (is it Horian Gracie), he is talking about their BJJ for self defence. I presume you are aware of the two types of GJJ. That's actually why I put GJJ in the title. They started teaching a form for self defence because the sport based form was not very practical for the street. Sort of going back to the origins of BJJ.


----------



## MJS

Hanzou said:


> As I said, I think the thing that gets missed from Bjj are the highly practical takedowns and throws within the system. You don't see it in the sport, but its a big part of standard Bjj practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this stuff was the basics for me, so I'm always amazed that there's people out there that aren't aware of it.



Good stuff.  I was taught this stuff when I first started doing BJJ.


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> So we're to believe Wikipedia over Bas himself saying it?
> 
> Denial isn't just a river in Egypt....


Right, well perhaps you'd like to play it again. No mention of training jujutsu, just a mention of a choke that is in jujutsu and other arts as well, and surprise, surprise, no promotion of BJJ. Just what was it you thought you heard him say?


----------



## FriedRice

hoshin1600 said:


> Mephisto,
> We can all agree that somtimes MA training falls short and I am not one to argue that.  But the premise of the thread is the effectiveness of BJJ in a street self defense situation.  Since I have asked a few times now for an example of what that would look like and no one has answered I am left with only my own idea of what a violent attack could consist of and how  BJJ would fit into that framework.



Ok, I'll try. BJJ isn't my main game, I'd rather knock them out with standing strikes. But if I had to use BJJ in the street, I'd hip throw with something like a Tsuri Goshi, slamming them into the concrete with my knee coming down  and aiming for their face. Whether this KO's them the F out or not, I still get a hold of their arm to do a standing arm lock to pop it at the elbow for insurance. This takes 3-5 seconds and if he has buddies (they always have buddies in these anti-BJJ scenarios right?  As BJJ guys never have friends around, ever, right?), I get up move on to the next guy. I never commit to being on the ground. Only my crashing knee, down on his face and I'm ready to spring right up. Most untrained people in the street usually can't react that fast within that 3-5 seconds to help their buddy that I just jacked up, but in case they are punching me already, then I can take a few shots and may have to forgo breaking his arm and just bank on him being hurt enough with that throw onto the cement.

If it was just  1-on-1, the I'd definitely pop his elbow. Now he's in pain, if not KO'ed. I can go home or stay to maim him or chose to rack up possible manslaughter and up, charges. I would go home. Now how effective would the average BJJ be?  The average MMA gym gets a lot of people wanting to try it out, daily.  Classes are 90mins.  30min warmup/drills, 30min tech/drills, 30min sparring, almost always. Sometimes 45-60min sparring. The average 1st timer who's in decent shape from a fitness gym, will usually gas out and can't handle the 30min warmup, so imagine someone in poor health. The average Blue Belt in BJJ should be able to submit some new guy with zero training every 10-15 seconds if he wanted to. This would be horrible and being a bully, but I've done it to my friends who were untrained, just to mess with them and did so in way under 10-15 seconds when I was a Blue Belt. Kept submitting them fast and furious, just for fun. Now it takes longer than 3-5 sec in the street, because sparring in class, we start on our knees and on a cushy mat  where the New Guy have time to resist. There's no picking someone up and slamming them into pure concrete that would more than wreck them with the crashing knee to the face. It usually takes 1 to 1.5 years of 3 days/week training to earn a Blue Belt in BJJ.  2.5 to 3.5 more years to go from Blue to Purple. Black is 8-10 years altogether, but usually 10. A BJJ Black Belt is no joke, hell a Purple isn't one neither. 



> In order to show that BJJ is effective there has to be a context other than just saying "because it works"  I have given a situation of two men, one with a baseball bat forcing their way into your kitchen.  A very fast moving and very violent attack.  In my world if I am at home so too would be my children so that has to be taken into account as well. I do not see any of my ground work skills being used here.



Well you need to realize that BJJ comes from Judo and Judo comes from Traditional JJ.  TJJ always had standup striking and all forms of eye strikes, eye gouging, and whatever pressure points or whatever.  Kano was an accomplished Master in TJJ. He saw that it was not feasible to train hard, as athletes and compete with eye strikes, nut kicks, biting, etc. Anyone can ask their little sister to teach them that and train kicking at nutsacks on their own, which is why Kano removed these nut squeezing elements for his sportsterized curriculum of his TJJ dojo. This allowed his students to train hard and be able to compete with less injuries. He even called it Kano's Jujutsu and then later, Judo. Maeda was one of Kano's top student who traveled worldwide as a businessman and as a no-holds-barred fighter to promote Judo.  At that time of Judo's infancy, it was still very much TJJ. They still trained all of the striking aspects, as Maeda fought NHB and it would be pretty dumb if he didn't know how to kick & punch. TJJ was Japan's major MA. Judo was just a new fad. Maeda taught the Gracies all of such aspects of TJJ/Judo. The Gracies, gravitated to the ground fighting work of TJJ/Judo, greatly improved it and coined their own version, BJJ.   Not many people know this, but they also train and teach the standup striking aspects of TJJ, as well as their eye gouging and nut striking, etc. techniques. They just call that part, "Self Defense", to not take away from their CASHCOW of BJJ.   But BJJ has always taught strandup striking as all fights starts standing. The Gracie Challenge has been around for nearly 100 years now, and they fought with no rules in Vale Tudo, with plenty of standup striking. Royce Gracie was kicking and punching plenty of people in UFC 1-4.

The main reason why BJJ doesn't train standup striking any longer (or rarely) is because at around UFC 8 or so, the strikers started getting wise to BJJ. In 1997, Maurice Smith beat UFC Champ, Mark Coleman (Wrestler) in UFC 14 as a Kickboxer who trains BJJ. BJJ alone was no longer the dominant force, and more rules were instituted which were unfair to BJJ'ers. BJJ gyms quickly evolved by bringing in Muay Thai for the striking aspect, which was far more superior to the strikings of BJJ (which looks like Karate).  Most MMA gyms today, have 3 separate classes. BJJ with pure grappling and no striking. MT for pure standup/no grappling. And MMA to tie everything together. The problem is, many people who trains BJJ only, are afraid of getting punched & kicked in the face. And the MT only people are afraid or just don't like grabbing *** all day. And both of these Only-types, are usually scared to death of MMA, which is why the MMA classes are lowest in head count. The MMA class is usually the roughest. Getting punched in the face while standing up for many years and getting used to it, is not close being the same as getting taken down and getting punched and elbowed in the face repeatedly with nowhere to go.

This is what caused this PROBLEM that you are referring to, which IMO, is a legit argument....as to how BJJ alone, is not the best for street defense.  MMA is the best, by far.  But I can be pretty confident that a BJJ Blue belt and up can easily slam the hell out of some untrained, street nobody into the cement and dislocate  1 arm very fast and be way more effective than the average TMA who _*USUALLY*_ don't train with the same level of intensity.  Sparring in BJJ is 80-100% power, all the time.  If this streetfighting Uke is not KO'ed, then he's going to be in a lot of pain from both the throw and the broken arm. He's done, the fight is over. Anything after, is purposeful maiming, then attempted murder, then murder and no longer self defense, but easily achieved on a KO'ed opponent.


----------



## K-man

Wow! I think, for the first time in my life, I am speechless.


----------



## Steve

Drose427 said:


> While there is definitely a good point even from Sport BJJ that translates to SD, there still a decent bit that needs to adapted or not focused on for SD.
> 
> Off the top of my head, A gogoplata is very much the groundfighting equivalent of a Tornado kick. It can definitely be used in the perfect situation especially in competitions, but isnt the most practical submission by any stretch of the imagination. I personally havent seen it used even in the competitions Ive been to.
> 
> I can only think of one time it was even used in UFC.
> 
> Omoplatas also arent terribly common, but you'll see them now and again.
> 
> The "keep only what works, discard what doesnt" isnt as much of a BJJ principle as it is MMA.
> 
> Even though we dont see Gogoplatas and omoplatas in the same number as we see Armbars and Triangles, theyre still actively taught. If they were nearly as practical (notice how im not  saying effective, _if_ you can get them theyll work) or common we'd see them a lot more. But theyre still taught, if BJJ was all about "discarding what doesnt work" why teach anything other than the most practical moves?
> 
> 
> 
> Well first off Id question the anecdotes of anyone that close to the founding of a style tied to that persons founding name. If there were a bunch of other corraborating thats different, but name one person whos founded an MA that they want to be commercially and widely spread that doesnt fluff up their experiences.
> 
> Second, even if Bas Rutten is telling the truth and that did happen, its Bas Rutten. Your average MMA/TMA guy cant just sit there and get their head kicked in while trying to submit a guy..


There are a lot of techniques, like the omoplata, which aren't really well suited to MMA because the combatants are shirtless and sweaty.   But with the added friction and control of a gi or a jacket, it's quite viable.  It's also often used as a sweep or submission, so you might not finish with it, but it can certainly improve your situation.


----------



## Tez3

K-man said:


> Wow! I think, for the first time in my life, I am speechless.



Well it certainly was 'special'


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> Don't try to use the eyewash while standing on a ladder until you reach black belt. That's an advanced technique.



Apparently that eyewash superglue is a real issue.


----------



## drop bear

MJS said:


> The vast majority of BJJ schools that I've seen in my area, while they are all good quality, all are focused on the sport/competing aspect.  Matt Bryers, one of the members here, has posted some clips of his Kobukai JJ, that he teaches, which is geared more for stand up/street application, although there is ground elements to it, it is different from the usual BJJ.  IMO, mixing the 2, would be a big plus.
> 
> Everyone is different, but for me, in a street situation, I'd say avoiding the ground is the best option.  Yeah, I know BJJ's strong point is the ground, but to intentionally go there...sorry, but that's just crazy IMO.  If you end up there by default...sure, ok, do what you have to do to get back up.  But that's not the time to prolong the ground game, for the reasons that have been talked about endlessly. LOL.
> 
> I do feel that having an understanding of the ground, is key, to SD.  Are there BJJ gyms out there that also teach more of a street format?  Don't know.  If not, I'm sure it'd be fairly simple to possibly modify things as needed, for a street situation.



What if the other guy is just plain out striking you?

I cant see myself eating punches all day on the idea that i might get tied up on the ground if some other person jumps in.


----------



## Hanzou

Steve said:


> There are a lot of techniques, like the omoplata, which aren't really well suited to MMA because the combatants are shirtless and sweaty.   But with the added friction and control of a gi or a jacket, it's quite viable.  It's also often used as a sweep or submission, so you might not finish with it, but it can certainly improve your situation.



Yeah, I was surprised when Drose mentioned Omoplata as something that wasn't practical, it's one of my personal faves because it has so many great uses.

I suppose he thought that Omoplata and Gogoplata were similar because of their names? :shrug:


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> Oh, BTW, (is it Horian Gracie), he is talking about their BJJ for self defence. I presume you are aware of the two types of GJJ. That's actually why I put GJJ in the title. They started teaching a form for self defence because the sport based form was not very practical for the street. Sort of going back to the origins of BJJ.



No, he started promoting self defense Bjj because Sport Bjj schools were beating Gracie Bjj schools in competition, and started to eat into his business. Not saying that his SD claims aren't valid, because they certainly are, and I can see the dangers of losing the SD aspect of Bjj completely in favor of the sporting aspect, but Rorian's reasons behind pushing SD Bjj don't completely revolve around the issue you describe above.


----------



## Shai Hulud

BJJ is excellent as a grappling art. As a sport we all know of its strengths by now I'm sure, but if I recall correctly Royce Gracie had a couple tapes featuring street BJJ - takedowns, defenses against bear hugs and grabs and strikes and the like.

There are facets of BJJ that make it a terrific art for the street, but do mind its limitations and the general rules of thumb for street-fighting. Grappling may not always pertain to "going to the ground", or staying down there for too long.

Wouldn't want to get your teeth and sides kicked in if the target has accomplices nearby.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

hoshin1600 said:


> But the premise of the thread is the effectiveness of BJJ in a street self defense situation



Actually, "self-defense" doesn't appear in the original post. The question was how applicable BJJ is "for the street", which would include consensual testosterone-and-ego--driven street fighting. That is part of the context that BJJ was originally developed for. I strongly recommend against anyone participating in such an activity, but many members of the Gracie family have done so since the inception of the art.



hoshin1600 said:


> Since I have asked a few times now for an example of what that would look like and no one has answered I am left with only my own idea of what a violent attack could consist of and how BJJ would fit into that framework.



There are a lot of different contexts for a violent attack. Some examples:


Belligerent drunk corners you as you try to leave the bar
Evicting said belligerent drunk when you are the bouncer
Fending off a date rapist
Controlling a mentally ill family member who is attacking another family member
Taking down and cuffing a violent suspect when you are a LEO
Being assaulted by a gang trying to beat you down for being in their neighborhood
Catching an unarmed burglar in your house
Catching an armed burglar in your house who turns and attacks you
BJJ (properly trained) can have something to offer in each of these scenarios. In some cases it might be the classic "take-them-down and subdue them on the ground" approach. In other cases it might be "survive if you get knocked down and get back up so you can run." In other cases it might be "use your stand-up clinch skills to control the situation." I'm not saying it will always be the best tool or the only one you will need, but it is a useful one.

You can check out this thread for a real-life application of BJJ that many people wouldn't think of.



Hanzou said:


> Like Renzo Gracie or Bas Rutten, both who supposedly used their Bjj skills in multiple attacker situations.



In fairness, Renzo and Bas are physically and mentally tough enough that they would be dangerous even with no martial arts skills at all.



Drose427 said:


> Even though we dont see Gogoplatas and omoplatas in the same number as we see Armbars and Triangles, theyre still actively taught. If they were nearly as practical (notice how im not saying effective, _if_ you can get them theyll work) or common we'd see them a lot more. But theyre still taught, if BJJ was all about "discarding what doesnt work" why teach anything other than the most practical moves?



Well...you have to ask "practical for _what_?" The omoplata is highly practical for both sport competition and real life. I get it on people all the time. You don't see it in MMA very often because of the slipperiness factor with sweaty guys wearing shorts.

The gogoplata (like other "fringe" techniques) has some practicality as a surprise technique to throw into the mix in competition against technical opponents who are highly aware of all the standard high-percentage moves.

I will say that at any moment there are plenty of "low-percentage" moves being practiced and taught in BJJ (usually for competition). This is because the BJJ world can be seen as a huge laboratory with researchers running experiments all the time. Some folks are trying to research refinements to the old standard techniques. Others are trying to find new techniques that can be added to the list of high-percentage moves. If a player can figure out how to reliably succeed with a lower-percentage move like the gogoplata, then it will end up being more widely practiced and taught. If not, it will remain on the fringe.



Hanzou said:


> As I said, I think the thing that gets missed from Bjj are the highly practical takedowns and throws within the system. You don't see it in the sport, but its a big part of standard Bjj practice.



The reason being, these takedowns are low-percentage against a skilled grappler. They're worth studying because they're easy to learn and effective against a striker who doesn't have a grappling background.



FriedRice said:


> Sparring in BJJ is 80-100% power, all the time.



Not so much. Going balls to the wall constantly in sparring is mostly what you see from white belts. It's not the optimum way to learn and get the best results from sparring.


----------



## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> I think many people missed my point.  I hear everyone talking about "street effectiveness" yet no one has defined what that is. My own personal risk assessment will be very different than someone else.  My own personal chance of getting into an altercation with a drunk at a bar is close to zero. Because I don't drink and I don't go to bars. My own personal experience with home invasions is much higher I have had 3 incidents and the one I cited I use as an example because it happened less than 20 minutes from my home. My wife is from another country so traveling internationally with my family is more of a risk factor for a terrorist attack then most people.  The more international travel equals higher risk.
> So again people need to stop saying "oh that will never happen" which is denial, and start asking themselves ....ok what might happen?  The OP question was about the effectiveness of BJJ but until you define the type of risk you are talking about you are talking  out your butt...in all likelihood BJJ is more effective in preventing my heart attack  than keeping my loved ones safe.



I have mentioned my situational defence idea.

looking at it from the idea that we need to develop an individual skill set to suit our circumstances then an art like bjj could be considered that it does everything it is supposed to do and does not do anything it isn't supposed to do.


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> Well...you have to ask "practical for _what_?" The omoplata is highly practical for both sport competition and real life. I get it on people all the time. You don't see it in MMA very often because of the slipperiness factor with sweaty guys wearing shorts.



In mma you have to know it so you can defend it. And because they both have trained that technique it gets cancelled out because neither person can apply it.

But if one person did not train the omapalata that is when it will work.


----------



## drop bear

Drose427 said:


> Im also curious, how did you learn omo/gogplata? From guard the leg comes of the head the same way as taught by the two schools Ive worked with guys from.


----------



## drop bear

Bjj needs more face punching. Even on the ground, striking is too good a fight finisher not to be taking full advantage of. Or defending against.


----------



## FriedRice

Tony Dismukes said:


> "Sparring in BJJ is 80-100% power, all the time."
> 
> Not so much. Going balls to the wall constantly in sparring is mostly what you see from white belts. It's not the optimum way to learn and get the best results from sparring.



I probably should have been more clear. When 2 BJJ of the same level spar, it certainly is at 80-100% power & intensity. No one wants to tap and lose. It's just training, but keeping score certainly does exist, just not admitted. 

When 2 White Belts spar at such intensity, there's a lot of out of control movements due to their limited experience and knowledge of techniques with limbs flailing, thrashing, etc.  But when 2 Black Belts spar, there's more control, but it's still at full power, except it's all compacted. The power is being exerted in the grips. The muscles are constantly straining, but the limbs are kept tight & compact; even though you don't see much movements. Even while waiting for the moment to explode, the muscle exertion is still constantly applied at this 100% power of whatever they have left in them. 

Now a step above this in intensity, would be when 2 friendly rivals of the school spars. It will certainly be at 100%. And during the initial engagement, there's some serious attacking at 100% power. Same goes with our Competition Team training.

Now of course when a White Belt spars a Purple Belt, it would be a relaxing flow drill for the PB. And even the WB, he knows he has no chance and will tone it down to work on his techniques, but it's usually just survival for the WB.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

FriedRice said:


> When 2 BJJ of the same level spar, it certainly is at 80-100% power & intensity. ... But when 2 Black Belts spar, there's more control, but it's still at full power, except it's all compacted. The power is being exerted in the grips. The muscles are constantly straining, but the limbs are kept tight & compact; even though you don't see much movements. Even while waiting for the moment to explode, the muscle exertion is still constantly applied at this 100% power of whatever they have left in them.


Not in my experience. Certainly you do want to roll like that occasionally, but I don't recommend it all the time for any level of practitioner.

Of course, different gyms have different mentalities, so approaches can vary.

How long have you been training BJJ and where do you train?


----------



## FriedRice

Tony Dismukes said:


> Not in my experience. Certainly you do want to roll like that occasionally, but I don't recommend it all the time for any level of practitioner.
> 
> Of course, different gyms have different mentalities, so approaches can vary.
> 
> How long have you been training BJJ and where do you train?



I started BJJ in 2000. Hopped around a lot with different gyms such as Lloyd Irvin's, Pedro Sauer's, Renzo's, etc. But I'm mostly a striker. Right now, I mostly hop around different gyms to spar with their fight teams when they need bodies to train for a tournament...mostly because I don't want to pay $140+ a month for structured classes.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Bjj needs more face punching. Even on the ground, striking is too good a fight finisher not to be taking full advantage of. Or defending against.



I agree. Face punching also forces your opponent to open themselves up to chokes and submissions.


----------



## MJS

drop bear said:


> What if the other guy is just plain out striking you?
> 
> I cant see myself eating punches all day on the idea that i might get tied up on the ground if some other person jumps in.



We could 'what if' this discussion all day, but to answer your question:  Do what you have to do, to survive.  If you have to clinch, take the guy down and bust his arm, do it.  If you clinch, take him down, and choke him out, do it.  If you can choke the guy out while standing, do it.  

As I've said countless times, and I'll probably say many, many more times...I'm NOT anti BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc.  Multi man attacks aside, if going to the ground is the only/best option, then do it.  IMO though, intentionally going there, as in, going there for the sake of it, is crazy.  Prolonging your stay on the ground, is crazy.  But that's just me.  Assess the situation and base your response accordingly.


----------



## Hanzou

MJS said:


> We could 'what if' this discussion all day, but to answer your question:  Do what you have to do, to survive.  If you have to clinch, take the guy down and bust his arm, do it.  If you clinch, take him down, and choke him out, do it.  If you can choke the guy out while standing, do it.
> 
> As I've said countless times, and I'll probably say many, many more times...I'm NOT anti BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc.  Multi man attacks aside, if going to the ground is the only/best option, then do it.  IMO though, intentionally going there, as in, going there for the sake of it, is crazy.  Prolonging your stay on the ground, is crazy.  But that's just me.  Assess the situation and base your response accordingly.



Frankly, nothing beats a clinch, rear takedown, mount, and ground and pound/armbar/choke finish. 

You can pull all of that off in a matter of seconds, if the situation warrants it.


----------



## MJS

Hanzou said:


> Frankly, nothing beats a clinch, rear takedown, mount, and ground and pound/armbar/choke finish.
> 
> You can pull all of that off in a matter of seconds, if the situation warrants it.



Absolutely.


----------



## FriedRice

MJS said:


> We could 'what if' this discussion all day, but to answer your question:  Do what you have to do, to survive.  If you have to clinch, take the guy down and bust his arm, do it.  If you clinch, take him down, and choke him out, do it.  If you can choke the guy out while standing, do it.
> 
> As I've said countless times, and I'll probably say many, many more times...I'm NOT anti BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc.  Multi man attacks aside, if going to the ground is the only/best option, then do it.  IMO though, intentionally going there, as in, going there for the sake of it, is crazy.  Prolonging your stay on the ground, is crazy.  But that's just me.  Assess the situation and base your response accordingly.



It's a very legit argument that the current BJJ only training is not the best for street defense, but IMO, it's still a lot better than most of the unrealistic SD training, that claims to be so realistic. And mainly due to the fact that BJJ trains hard and spars hard, every single class. 30-45 minutes of sparring, every class at 80-100% power & intensity is a hell of a lot  compared to TMA & SD classes, and will get you excellent strength & conditioning and somewhat, significant fighting mentality. Like DropBear said, if you're getting the crap beaten out of you standing, your best bet is to Grapple. I have a collection of all sorts of fights ranging from streetfights, prison fights, 1 on 1 up to 1 on 5-6, etc. About 700 videos and adding more everyday because I take SD very seriously. People in these videos, who are getting pummeled while standing, will almost always, resort to clinching and wrestling, regardless of whether they're trained for it or not. 

If BJJ is all you've got, why shouldn't you use it right away, rather than striking poorly? Against someone untrained, I can easily hip throw them into the cement and on the way down, drop my knee into his face while grabbing an arm and break his arm at the elbows with a standing armlock in 3-5 seconds. Then I move onto the next guy if there's one. Even with a double leg TD, you can get him high enough to slam him down onto the concrete to hurt him pretty badly. 

Out of my 700+ real fight videos, only 2-3 resulted in what seemed to be fatalities due to excessive and continual beatings. Then about another 2-3 where someone got KO'ed with 1-2 punches, drops backward and crack their head open on the cement, resulting in a coma or death afterward at  the hospital. But most streetfights, or even prison fights....they get stopped by others once someone is KO'ed. Most times, the winner themselves would stop on their own and not continue to pulverize some dude's unconscious body. There's rarely such 10 on 1 scenarios nor fights to the death, as often romanticized by Self Defense people who don't understand BJJ nor MMA, thinking it's just for sport. And I'm not saying you're one of them especially since you also train BJJ.


----------



## Mephisto

FriedRice said:


> I probably should have been more clear. When 2 BJJ of the same level spar, it certainly is at 80-100% power & intensity. No one wants to tap and lose. It's just training, but keeping score certainly does exist, just not admitted.
> 
> When 2 White Belts spar at such intensity, there's a lot of out of control movements due to their limited experience and knowledge of techniques with limbs flailing, thrashing, etc.  But when 2 Black Belts spar, there's more control, but it's still at full power, except it's all compacted. The power is being exerted in the grips. The muscles are constantly straining, but the limbs are kept tight & compact; even though you don't see much movements. Even while waiting for the moment to explode, the muscle exertion is still constantly applied at this 100% power of whatever they have left in them.
> 
> Now a step above this in intensity, would be when 2 friendly rivals of the school spars. It will certainly be at 100%. And during the initial engagement, there's some serious attacking at 100% power. Same goes with our Competition Team training.
> 
> Now of course when a White Belt spars a Purple Belt, it would be a relaxing flow drill for the PB. And even the WB, he knows he has no chance and will tone it down to work on his techniques, but it's usually just survival for the WB.


You make a valid point, all BJJ sparring when both participants are at the same level is 80-100%. All of it, at all times. At my BJJ gym we had a device to measure the percentage at which you were rolling, and if you went below 80% you would get reprimanded, 3 times and you're kicked out of BJJ for a month! Sometimes they would let you slide if you went down to 79% though. OF course the black belts, 100% all the time, no doubt about it. Anyone who's experience differs from this probably wasn't training at a real BJJ gym. 


MJS said:


> We could 'what if' this discussion all day, but to answer your question:  Do what you have to do, to survive.  If you have to clinch, take the guy down and bust his arm, do it.  If you clinch, take him down, and choke him out, do it.  If you can choke the guy out while standing, do it.
> 
> As I've said countless times, and I'll probably say many, many more times...I'm NOT anti BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc.  Multi man attacks aside, if going to the ground is the only/best option, then do it.  IMO though, intentionally going there, as in, going there for the sake of it, is crazy.  Prolonging your stay on the ground, is crazy.  But that's just me.  Assess the situation and base your response accordingly.


I don't think anyone here has advocated staying on the ground for an extended amount of time. I think the general consensus is to be cautious when on the ground and make it quick, which is quite possible if you're skilled on the ground.


----------



## Hanzou

I don't think enough people appreciate just how awesome the Guard is.

It allows you to gain a dominant position from a place where other MAs consider you utterly beaten. When I hear of other arts completely bypassing the Guard completely in their "ground fighting" classes, I just shake me head.


----------



## FriedRice

Mephisto said:


> You make a valid point, all BJJ sparring when both participants are at the same level is 80-100%. All of it, at all times. At my BJJ gym we had a device to measure the percentage at which you were rolling, and if you went below 80% you would get reprimanded, 3 times and you're kicked out of BJJ for a month! Sometimes they would let you slide if you went down to 79% though. OF course the black belts, 100% all the time, no doubt about it. Anyone who's experience differs from this probably wasn't training at a real BJJ gym.



Oh sorry, didn't mean to hit a nerve. Maybe your gym also have a sensitive nerve scale too


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> I don't think enough people appreciate just how awesome the Guard is.
> 
> It allows you to gain a dominant position from a place where other MAs consider you utterly beaten. When I hear of other arts completely bypassing the Guard completely in their "ground fighting" classes, I just shake me head.



See i train guard but wouldn't butt flop.


----------



## elder999




----------



## Mephisto

FriedRice said:


> Oh sorry, didn't mean to hit a nerve. Maybe your gym also have a sensitive nerve scale too


----------



## Mephisto

FriedRice said:


> Oh sorry, didn't mean to hit a nerve. Maybe your gym also have a sensitive nerve scale too


No you didn't strike a nerve, I was just being facetious. Just trying to illustrate how ridiculous saying everyone rolls at 80-100% is.


----------



## MJS

FriedRice said:


> It's a very legit argument that the current BJJ only training is not the best for street defense, but IMO, it's still a lot better than most of the unrealistic SD training, that claims to be so realistic. And mainly due to the fact that BJJ trains hard and spars hard, every single class. 30-45 minutes of sparring, every class at 80-100% power & intensity is a hell of a lot  compared to TMA & SD classes, and will get you excellent strength & conditioning and somewhat, significant fighting mentality. Like DropBear said, if you're getting the crap beaten out of you standing, your best bet is to Grapple. I have a collection of all sorts of fights ranging from streetfights, prison fights, 1 on 1 up to 1 on 5-6, etc. About 700 videos and adding more everyday because I take SD very seriously. People in these videos, who are getting pummeled while standing, will almost always, resort to clinching and wrestling, regardless of whether they're trained for it or not.



Agree!  There is certainly a lot of BS out there, being taught as good SD.  Sadly, many buy into it.  I currently train Kyokushin.  Sparring, at my school, is done on a regular basis, more so when there's a tournament, and there are quite a few coming up.  That sparring, by far, is harder and more intense, than I've done when I was training Kenpo.  Well, with the exception of one of my Kenpo teachers.  I'd train privately with him, and when it was time to spar, it was hard.  But yes, I tip my hat to the MMA guys, for their training methods, intensity, aliveness, etc.  While I do like to take it easy some days, ie: toning the pace down a bit, I do enjoy a nice, hard training session.  



> If BJJ is all you've got, why shouldn't you use it right away, rather than striking poorly? Against someone untrained, I can easily hip throw them into the cement and on the way down, drop my knee into his face while grabbing an arm and break his arm at the elbows with a standing armlock in 3-5 seconds. Then I move onto the next guy if there's one. Even with a double leg TD, you can get him high enough to slam him down onto the concrete to hurt him pretty badly.



Of course, and you pretty much made my point.   In your scenario, the situation is dealt with as quickly as possible.  That's my point...deal with it, and get the hell out of dodge!  Don't prolong something, if you don't have to.  Bad guy throws a punch, clinch, takedown, whatever, choke, lock, break, and you're done.  Hell, the throw alone could very well be enough to take the 'fight' out of the BG. 



> Out of my 700+ real fight videos, only 2-3 resulted in what seemed to be fatalities due to excessive and continual beatings. Then about another 2-3 where someone got KO'ed with 1-2 punches, drops backward and crack their head open on the cement, resulting in a coma or death afterward at  the hospital. But most streetfights, or even prison fights....they get stopped by others once someone is KO'ed. Most times, the winner themselves would stop on their own and not continue to pulverize some dude's unconscious body. There's rarely such 10 on 1 scenarios nor fights to the death, as often romanticized by Self Defense people who don't understand BJJ nor MMA, thinking it's just for sport. And I'm not saying you're one of them especially since you also train BJJ.



Well, to this we agree.


----------



## FriedRice

MJS said:


> Well, to this we agree.



Yes, I was agreeing with your points and was only expanding on them and it may have looked like I was disagreeing, but wasn't.


----------



## FriedRice

Mephisto said:


> No you didn't strike a nerve, I was just being facetious. Just trying to illustrate how ridiculous saying everyone rolls at 80-100% is.



What's really funny here, is that you're explaining, my sarcasm of mimicking you.


----------



## MJS

FriedRice said:


> Yes, I was agreeing with your points and was only expanding on them and it may have looked like I was disagreeing, but wasn't.



Oh I know, and I didn't take your post as disagreeing.   I'm enjoying this thread.  Lots of good points.


----------



## Hanzou

Here's a video that is pretty relevant to the topic;






Supposedly this guy is sport Bjj, and is a purple belt. Guy did like 3 subs in the span of 15 seconds.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Here's a video that is pretty relevant to the topic;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supposedly this guy is sport Bjj, and is a purple belt. Guy did like 3 subs in the span of 15 seconds.



And personally i didn't like his strategy. If you are the better grappler don't put yourself in a position where you have to choose between breaking a guys leg or getting punched in the face.

There is this thing we like to call knee ride.


----------



## Buka

Asshats.


----------



## hoshin1600

this may be a little slow moving but worth the watch.


----------



## hoshin1600

Hanzou's  vid clip is adressed in this video at about 9 min in.


----------



## drop bear

The thing with mma is it does contain fight ending striking.






which bjj does not necessarily have. Now of course there is nothing stopping a beejer from acquiring fight ending striking if they want and many do.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> And personally i didn't like his strategy. If you are the better grappler don't put yourself in a position where you have to choose between breaking a guys leg or getting punched in the face.
> 
> There is this thing we like to call knee ride.



To be fair, he had him in a rear naked, and that got interrupted by people trying to break it up. He then got him in a triangle, and that got broken up by people intervening. He got him in an arm bar, and that got interrupted too. Finally he was able to sweep him and get him in a leg lock. Considering he was sucker punched, I think he did a pretty good job overall. Despite being interrupted several times, he controlled the entire fight.

Compare that vid to this one;






I think some interesting comparisons can be made.


----------



## ShotoNoob

K-man said:


> I'll start out by saying that BJJ, like many martial arts, is mostly taught in a way that produces excellent fighters for the ring but does not prepare you for the street.
> 
> Let's put BJJ under the microscope without style bashing please.


|
I think BJJ is great.  But I don't understand how BJJ principles can't be almost immediately adapted to street self defense.  To the extent that the street attacks are similar to what MMA fighters encounter in structure, what they see in the Cage.
|
Is the way most BJJ taught RBSD as mentors here are training?  heck No....  Same goes for the karate I train.  Can I use my karate to KO a bully who's shoving me around, threatening me? Yes or No?


----------



## ShotoNoob

FriedRice said:


> It's a very legit argument that the current BJJ only training is not the best for street defense, but IMO, it's still a lot better than most of the unrealistic SD training, that claims to be so realistic.


|
Yeah, I just can't get why people object to BJJ for self defense.  The real revolution from BJJ is that the took the Japanese TMA JuJitsu's and made BJJ practical & pragmatic and streamlined for most to learn.  BJJ is hugely popular because of that... IMO.


Drose427 said:


> And mainly due to the fact that BJJ trains hard and spars hard, every single class. 30-45 minutes of sparring, every class at 80-100% power & intensity is a hell of a lot  compared to TMA & SD classes, and will get you excellent strength & conditioning and somewhat, significant fighting mentality.


|
I don't do full contact.  However as I understand, this reality was driving reason that Jigoro Kano created Judo.  The way most Japanese JuJitsu was approached & practiced @ that time was military in flavor where you killed or maimed your opponent, kind of no quarters.
|
Again another explosion in popularity.


----------



## K-man

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I think BJJ is great.  But I don't understand how BJJ principles can't be almost immediately adapted to street self defense.  To the extent that the street attacks are similar to what MMA fighters encounter in structure, what they see in the Cage.
> |
> Is the way most BJJ taught RBSD as mentors here are training?  heck No....  Same goes for the karate I train.  Can I use my karate to KO a bully who's shoving me around, threatening me? Yes or No?


Certainly. In some situations you can effectively use what you have. BJJ was originally designed for the street and proven there. Since it has developed more for sport.

But hey, don't take my word for it ...






If you can't watch it all, at least watch a couple of minutes from 6:00.


----------



## FriedRice

hoshin1600 said:


> this may be a little slow moving but worth the watch.



Here's what low level MMA fighters who probably don't have a chance of ever making it in the UFC, are doing:  




I like it though.


----------



## ShotoNoob

K-man said:


> Certainly. In some situations you can effectively use what you have. BJJ was originally designed for the street and proven there. Since it has developed more for sport....
> ...If you can't watch it all, at least watch a couple of minutes from 6:00.


|
Precisely.  As the context of the situation changes, your actions change.  It's really straight forward to the thinking martial artist.
|
Here they also mention that a specific program has been developed to prepare you specifically for street-wise usage.  At the same time, there is a base or foundation under it all.  THANKS....
|
Will benefit those having any confusion....
|
I'd mention the principle part of KIME here, but that's 'karate' so I've been admonished....


----------



## sinthetik_mistik

K-man said:


> Over the past 18 months, every thread where we have tried to discuss Karate, Aikido, Wing Chun or any other martial art you'd like to name, eventually it has turned into an arguement where it is pointed out how BJJ or MMA is so much better and the training inherent in any other style is vastly inferior to the sport based styles that spar. Even more, even those that spar are inferior because they don't have a specialised ground game of BJJ.
> 
> Now I happen to think that BJJ is a great martial art and MMA is great for anyone who wants to test themselves in the relatively safe environment of the ring, but how effective is BJJ in the street?
> 
> I'll start out by saying that BJJ, like many martial arts, is mostly taught in a way that produces excellent fighters for the ring but does not prepare you for the street.
> 
> Let's put BJJ under the microscope without style bashing please.


I didn't read all 6 pages of comments on this thread so there is a good chance that what I'm about to say has been said already but yeah, I'm gonna say it anyway. I will start by saying that if I was an Octagon fighter and had to choose one martial art, it would be BJJ. However, on the street it can be less dominant. The obvious flaw being the inability to fight multiple attackers. Another obvious weakness is that if someone is fighting dirty, they can do all kinds of things to prevent a submission grab, such as grabbing the balls... if you are up against some kind of striker, you wouldn't be able to get close enough to him to grab his balls, or bite him, or stick your finger in his eyes, if he is a potent striker, he will neutralize you before you get the opportunity to any of those things. But BJJ is up close and personal, making it easier to do all of these things. But yeah in cage fighting it is second to none.


----------



## Tez3

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I will start by saying that if I was an Octagon fighter



I assume you mean an MMA fighter? MMA competitions aren't confined to an 'octagon', they are often in rings or on mats, the octagon is a word the UFC uses.
The whole point of MMA is that it is what it says on the tin, 'mixed' so choosing one style is pointless and will lose you the fight, that goes for any style not just BJJ. There is another style of groundwork I find even better than BJJ, that's Sambo, you will also find a lot of catch wrestlers, wrestlers, Judoka and grapplers who will tell you that BJJ is good but not _the_ best.


----------



## Hanzou

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I didn't read all 6 pages of comments on this thread so there is a good chance that what I'm about to say has been said already but yeah, I'm gonna say it anyway. I will start by saying that if I was an Octagon fighter and had to choose one martial art, it would be BJJ. However, on the street it can be less dominant. The obvious flaw being the inability to fight multiple attackers. Another obvious weakness is that if someone is fighting dirty, they can do all kinds of things to prevent a submission grab, such as grabbing the balls... if you are up against some kind of striker, you wouldn't be able to get close enough to him to grab his balls, or bite him, or stick your finger in his eyes, if he is a potent striker, he will neutralize you before you get the opportunity to any of those things. But BJJ is up close and personal, making it easier to do all of these things. But yeah in cage fighting it is second to none.



Laughable.

You're not going to stop skilled grappler by grabbing them in the balls, unless that grappler's testicles are swinging around freely near your arms. Biting, and attempting to eye gouge are also sure fire ways to allow the grappler to completely have their way with you, because instead of properly defending yourself from the actual grapple, you're leaving your limbs wide open for a variety of locks and chokes.

If you are unfortunate enough to have a skilled Bjj practitioner attack you (I seriously doubt that would happen, because the vast majority of Bjj guys are pretty laid back), all those "dirty tricks" are just going to get you hurt. Bjj practitioners are trained to completely restrict the movement of their opponents. If I'm on top of you and you try to poke out my eyes, you've just given your arm up for me to play with. If you attempt to bite me, you've exposed your head and neck to cranks and choking. If you're going for my nuts, I can quickly shift my position to move my nuts out of your reach, and make your life miserable.

You can't beat technical skill with silly nonsense. Bjj wouldn't have lasted this long if you could negate it with playground antics. Fighting in general is up close and personal. I've fought guys from other styles who literally freeze up when I close the distance on them. In a SD situation, someone will be in your face, grabbing you and trying to do physical damage to you.

As for multiple opponents, no MA is reliable against more than one person attacking you. Stop watching Kung Fu movies. Real life isn't a Bruce Lee flick.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Laughable.
> 
> You're not going to stop skilled grappler by grabbing them in the balls, unless that grappler's testicles are swinging around freely near your arms. Biting, and attempting to eye gouge are also sure fire ways to allow the grappler to completely have their way with you, because instead of properly defending yourself from the actual grapple, you're leaving your limbs wide open for a variety of locks and chokes.
> 
> If you are unfortunate enough to have a skilled Bjj practitioner attack you (I seriously doubt that would happen, because the vast majority of Bjj guys are pretty laid back), all those "dirty tricks" are just going to get you hurt.


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


>



Yeah, like I said, laughable (and pretty disgusting).


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou,

Biting it pretty effective when done right.  It really is hard to argue that.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

It is also really disgusting.


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hanzou,
> 
> Biting it pretty effective when done right.  It really is hard to argue that.



Effective in what way? Effective in ending a confrontation? I would say no. Effective as a way to get you out of a hold? Again I would say no. Effective as a brief distraction that would briefly relieve the pressure I'm putting on you? Perhaps, but you're also just as likely to escalate the situation with you remaining in an inferior position. If I'm holding someone in side mount and they somehow bite my neck (something I find highly doubtful if you're properly executing side mount, which was NOT done in that video), I'm going to smash them in the face with my elbows or fists so they don't do it again. So congratulations. You went from me just putting you to sleep, to me now turning your face into hamburger, and THEN putting you to sleep.

That video was a joke.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> That video was a joke.


Yeah, I laughed too...whatever.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hanzou,
> 
> Biting it pretty effective when done right.  It really is hard to argue that.



Biting is more effective when the person doing it understands how grappling works. Same with defending bites.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

drop bear said:


> Biting is more effective when the person doing it understands how grappling works. Same with defending bites.



Absolutely!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou said:


> Effective in what way? Effective in ending a confrontation? I would say no. Effective as a way to get you out of a hold? Again I would say no. Effective as a brief distraction that would briefly relieve the pressure I'm putting on you? Perhaps, but you're also just as likely to escalate the situation with you remaining in an inferior position. If I'm holding someone in side mount and they somehow bite my neck (something I find highly doubtful if you're properly executing side mount, which was NOT done in that video), I'm going to smash them in the face with my elbows or fists so they don't do it again. So congratulations. You went from me just putting you to sleep, to me now turning your face into hamburger, and THEN putting you to sleep.
> 
> That video was a joke.



I really doubt that if someone is biting you deeply that you will react that way.  More than likely you will be doing everything you can to get away from them as you are screaming. 

I also though the video was hilarious by the way.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Biting is more effective when the person doing it understands how grappling works. Same with defending bites.



I don't see how knowledge of grappling would make you a more effective biter.  In the end, if you need to resort to biting, I hope you have great dental insurance because you're more than likely going to lose your teeth.


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I really doubt that if someone is biting you deeply that you will react that way.  More than likely you will be doing everything you can to get away from them as you are screaming.
> 
> I also though the video was hilarious by the way.



You're kidding right? If I have someone in a controlled position, what exactly are they going to bite that will force me to release my hold on them?

This line of argumentation is about as bad as people saying they can dick-punch their way out of grappling.


----------



## sinthetik_mistik

Tez3 said:


> I assume you mean an MMA fighter? MMA competitions aren't confined to an 'octagon', they are often in rings or on mats, the octagon is a word the UFC uses.
> The whole point of MMA is that it is what it says on the tin, 'mixed' so choosing one style is pointless and will lose you the fight, that goes for any style not just BJJ. There is another style of groundwork I find even better than BJJ, that's Sambo, you will also find a lot of catch wrestlers, wrestlers, Judoka and grapplers who will tell you that BJJ is good but not _the_ best.


No, I don't mean MMA fighter, I mean UFC fighter. I know that UFC is MMA, I was just saying in a hypothetical situation.


----------



## sinthetik_mistik

sinthetik_mistik said:


> No, I don't mean MMA fighter, I mean UFC fighter. I know that UFC is MMA, I was just saying in a hypothetical situation.


yeah i am no expert on grappling martial arts. All I know about Sambo is that it is a Russian grappling martial art. I've seen it used in Anthony Bourdain as well as Burn Notice


----------



## Tez3

sinthetik_mistik said:


> No, I don't mean MMA fighter, I mean UFC fighter. I know that UFC is MMA, I was just saying in a hypothetical situation.




No, Mixed Martial Arts is the style of fighting, the UFC is a fight promotion business run for profit. Those who fight on the UFC shows are MMA fighters.



sinthetik_mistik said:


> I've seen it used in Anthony Bourdain as well as Burn Notice




Can I gently suggest to you that martial arts are real, what you see on the television on in films isn't.


----------



## sinthetik_mistik

Tez3 said:


> No, Mixed Martial Arts is the style of fighting, the UFC is a fight promotion business run for profit. Those who fight on the UFC shows are MMA fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can I gently suggest to you that martial arts are real, what you see on the television on in films isn't.


i didn't actually think that MMA is the name of the entire UFC business. i guess I should have worded my post better but yeah i'm not stupid. As far as seeing Sambo on tv, i was just trying to make conversation.


----------



## Tez3

sinthetik_mistik said:


> i didn't actually think that MMA is the name of the entire UFC business. i guess I should have worded my post better but yeah i'm not stupid. As far as seeing Sambo on tv, i was just trying to make conversation.




The film/television comment wasn't based on just that one post of yours.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou said:


> You're kidding right? If I have someone in a controlled position, what exactly are they going to bite that will force me to release my hold on them?
> 
> This line of argumentation is about as bad as people saying they can dick-punch their way out of grappling.



Hanzou,

Listen if someone bites you and you are in their guard, mount, crossbody, etc. and they really dig in with that bite.  I think you will be trying to get away from them as fast as you possibly can.  Like you, I understand positioning in grappling very, very well.  Your not going to punch someone in the groin, your probably going to have a really, really bad outcome if you attempt to punch someone when they are mounted on you.  However, if in your arrogance you allow someone to bite you deeply?  Well it is going to suck to be you and it doesn't matter what position you are in.  That is almost as laughable as when someone says they will let a dog bite them or I'll take that first shot from the blade.  The natural reaction to being bit and or suffering trauma is to try and get the hell away from it and the pain and trauma that is being caused.  Try not to have a blind spot in your training as there are weaknesses in every martial system including BJJ.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> I don't see how knowledge of grappling would make you a more effective biter.  In the end, if you need to resort to biting, I hope you have great dental insurance because you're more than likely going to lose your teeth.



Are we  working on the premise that both have about the same chance. Or are suggesting that we are outclassed by the other grappler.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Are we  working on the premise that both have about the same chance. Or are suggesting that we are outclassed by the other grappler.



The original argument revolved around a guy with little to no grappling knowledge vs a trained grappler. Essentially the ridiculous idea that grapplers leave their vital spots wide open for Dracula bites.


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hanzou,
> 
> Listen if someone bites you and you are in their guard, mount, crossbody, etc. and they really dig in with that bite.  I think you will be trying to get away from them as fast as you possibly can.  Like you, I understand positioning in grappling very, very well.  Your not going to punch someone in the groin, your probably going to have a really, really bad outcome if you attempt to punch someone when they are mounted on you.  However, if in your arrogance you allow someone to bite you deeply?  Well it is going to suck to be you and it doesn't matter what position you are in.  That is almost as laughable as when someone says they will let a dog bite them or I'll take that first shot from the blade.  The natural reaction to being bit and or suffering trauma is to try and get the hell away from it and the pain and trauma that is being caused.  Try not to have a blind spot in your training as there are weaknesses in every martial system including BJJ.



You mean in MY guard right? 

Obligatory:





Also I tend to wear pants and shirts. I tend to avoid fighting people naked. So good luck biting deeply through a shirt or a pair of pants.

Finally, Human teeth are not as sharp, nor are their jaws as strong as a dog's, so that's a pretty bad comparison.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> You mean in MY guard right?
> 
> Obligatory:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also I tend to wear pants and shirts. I tend to avoid fighting people naked. So good luck biting deeply through a shirt or a pair of pants.
> 
> Finally, Human teeth are not as sharp, nor are their jaws as strong as a dog's, so that's a pretty bad comparison.



Here's an article from the New England Journal of Medicine on human bites:

MMS Error

And here's one from Discovery on human bite strength.

Human Bite Stronger Than Thought Discovery News

One of my teachers used to routinely bite through quarters and nails. It was part of his act.

I'm also pretty sure _your_ bite is at least as strong as a chihuahua's.....you certainly yip like one enough...in any case, the comparison kinda stands.....


----------



## sinthetik_mistik

Tez3 said:


> The film/television comment wasn't based on just that one post of yours.


My memory is bad, I have no recollection of talking about film/te


elder999 said:


> Here's an article from the New England Journal of Medicine on human bites:
> 
> MMS Error
> 
> And here's one from Discovery on human bite strength.
> 
> Human Bite Stronger Than Thought Discovery News
> 
> One of my teachers used to routinely bite through quarters and nails. It was part of his act.
> 
> I'm also pretty sure _your_ bite is at least as strong as a chihuahua's.....you certainly yip like one enough...in any case, the comparison kinda stands.....


through quarters and nails damn that's impressive


----------



## elder999

sinthetik_mistik said:


> My memory is bad, I have no recollection of talking about film/te
> 
> through quarters and nails damn that's impressive


Mr. Greenstein was just that: damn impressive


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> The original argument revolved around a guy with little to no grappling knowledge vs a trained grappler. Essentially the ridiculous idea that grapplers leave their vital spots wide open for Dracula bites.



Well that is silly. If the other guy is better then you are in trouble.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou said:


> You mean in MY guard right?
> 
> Obligatory:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also I tend to wear pants and shirts. I tend to avoid fighting people naked. So good luck biting deeply through a shirt or a pair of pants.
> 
> Finally, Human teeth are not as sharp, nor are their jaws as strong as a dog's, so that's a pretty bad comparison.



*Love Draculino and have really nothing but great things to say about him* and agree that the guard is a great skill set and dangerous to deal with when the practitioner knows what they are doing.  However, Hanzou that is all compliant playing around.  There were a couple of times in that video when Draculino could have easily been bitten.  That was a *compliant fun video* no different than compliant videos you poke fun at.  It would be really interesting though to have a grappling tournament where biting was allowed and encourage.  *Would love to see the results*. lol  (not really though as that was a joke as it would have a serious gruesome bloody mess)

I know of know BJJ practitioner that routine trains grappling to avoid being bitten around the neck and in other vulnerable parts.  The art has a glaring weakness in this area.  If they did they would look very closely at a few details to work to negate it.  *Now, I do not advocate biting*.  The reason for that though is that I really do not want someone's blood in my mouth. (still if I had to)   I advocate positional dominance that allows you to break, choke, strike someone.  *Yet, to dismiss it is foolish*.

*Your comment about wearing a shirt or pants are not going to provide you any protection from someone biting you*.  Jeans might give you a modicum of protection but the human bite is pretty strong.  Not to mention your neck, face, ears, biceps, etc., etc. typically do not have a covering that will stop a human bite unless it is very cold and you are wearing a coat.  This is a weakness in your thought pattern.  *You routinely dismiss things that are at this point outside your comfort and knowledge zone.*  You need to get out and experience more training just to broaden your perspective!


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> Here's an article from the New England Journal of Medicine on human bites:
> 
> MMS Error
> 
> And here's one from Discovery on human bite strength.
> 
> Human Bite Stronger Than Thought Discovery News
> 
> One of my teachers used to routinely bite through quarters and nails. It was part of his act.
> 
> I'm also pretty sure _your_ bite is at least as strong as a chihuahua's.....you certainly yip like one enough...in any case, the comparison kinda stands.....



I'm sorry, where in either one of those articles did it say that a human bite is as strong as a dog's?


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Love Draculino and have really nothing but great things to say about him* and agree that the guard is a great skill set and dangerous to deal with when the practitioner knows what they are doing.  However, Hanzou that is all compliant playing around.  There were a couple of times in that video when Draculino could have easily been bitten.  That was a *compliant fun video* no different than compliant videos you poke fun at.  It would be really interesting though to have a grappling tournament where biting was allowed and encourage.  *Would love to see the results*. lol  (not really though as that was a joke as it would have a serious gruesome bloody mess)
> 
> I know of know BJJ practitioner that routine trains grappling to avoid being bitten around the neck and in other vulnerable parts.  The art has a glaring weakness in this area.  If they did they would look very closely at a few details to work to negate it.  *Now, I do not advocate biting*.  The reason for that though is that I really do not want someone's blood in my mouth. (still if I had to)   I advocate positional dominance that allows you to break, choke, strike someone.  *Yet, to dismiss it is foolish*.
> 
> *Your comment about wearing a shirt or pants are not going to provide you any protection from someone biting you*.  Jeans might give you a modicum of protection but the human bite is pretty strong.  Not to mention your neck, face, ears, biceps, etc., etc. typically do not have a covering that will stop a human bite unless it is very cold and you are wearing a coat.  This is a weakness in your thought pattern.  *You routinely dismiss things that are at this point outside your comfort and knowledge zone.*  You need to get out and experience more training just to broaden your perspective!



You say that BJJ has a glaring weakness from biting attacks. Where exactly? What position opens you up to getting bitten by someone?

You honestly believe that someone could bite their way out of guard? How exactly? What about the mount? You think someone I'm sitting on top of has the speed and mobility to bite me before I pound their face on? I posted that vid to showcase the principle behind the guard position. It doesn't need to be an actual fight to show that attempting playground antics in an inferior position is a recipie for disaster.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hanzou,
> 
> Listen if someone bites you and you are in their guard, mount, crossbody, etc. and they really dig in with that bite.  I think you will be trying to get away from them as fast as you possibly can.  Like you, I understand positioning in grappling very, very well.  Your not going to punch someone in the groin, your probably going to have a really, really bad outcome if you attempt to punch someone when they are mounted on you.  However, if in your arrogance you allow someone to bite you deeply?  Well it is going to suck to be you and it doesn't matter what position you are in.  That is almost as laughable as when someone says they will let a dog bite them or I'll take that first shot from the blade.  The natural reaction to being bit and or suffering trauma is to try and get the hell away from it and the pain and trauma that is being caused.  Try not to have a blind spot in your training as there are weaknesses in every martial system including BJJ.



I have been bitten fighting guys. There are defences to it just like anything else.
Otherwise.
If you wrestle or mma with a guy who knows how to grind. You will get a different perspective on the concept of pressure points and pain compliance. There are guys who are mean as hell.

If you wrestle you will get slapped scratched and eye gouged and you want to be on to that.

But also a lot of good grappling is head control which negates biting. 

Which puts me back to my original statement that knowing how grappling works improves the biting option.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> You say that BJJ has a glaring weakness from biting attacks. Where exactly? What position opens you up to getting bitten by someone?
> 
> You honestly believe that someone could bite their way out of guard? How exactly? What about the mount? You think someone I'm sitting on top of has the speed and mobility to bite me before I pound their face on? I posted that vid to showcase the principle behind the guard position. It doesn't need to be an actual fight to show that attempting playground antics in an inferior position is a recipie for disaster.



During a stack pass.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

drop bear said:


> I have been bitten fighting guys. There are defences to it just like anything else.
> Otherwise.
> If you wrestle or mma with a guy who knows how to grind. You will get a different perspective on the concept of pressure points and pain compliance. There are guys who are mean as hell.
> 
> If you wrestle you will get slapped scratched and eye gouged and you want to be on to that.
> 
> But also a lot of good grappling is head control which negates biting.
> 
> Which puts me back to my original statement that knowing how grappling works improves the biting option.



Absolutely we are in total agreement!


----------



## Tony Dismukes

The only instructor who ever showed me an escape based on biting was a BJJ black belt, for whatever that's worth.

I wouldn't advocate relying on biting as a substitute for good grappling skills, but I wouldn't advocate ignoring the damage that could be done by an aggressive biter either. The first step in learning how to effectively counter a given tactic (such as biting) is to understand and respect the dangers that tactic can present.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou said:


> You say that BJJ has a glaring weakness from biting attacks. Where exactly? What position opens you up to getting bitten by someone?
> 
> You honestly believe that someone could bite their way out of guard? How exactly? What about the mount? You think someone I'm sitting on top of has the speed and mobility to bite me before I pound their face on? I posted that vid to showcase the principle behind the guard position. It doesn't need to be an actual fight to show that attempting playground antics in an inferior position is a recipie for disaster.



Hanzou,

*The guard as we both know is a neutral position* where both people have opportunity to attack and defend.  Both have openings.  There are opportunities within those openings to attack and well yes there are opportunities to bite.  If you are biting and someone is mounted on you that is probably going to work out as well as trying to punch your way out. (when you are on the bottom)  Yet, it is still a possibility and if you know when and wear that possibility has a greater chance.   There are lots of opportunities from the top game.  So much that it is easy because no one defends against them.  *Just like there are opportunities to draw your knife, firearm, etc.*

Listen you might be really surprised at over the course of time how many people have actually been bitten.  It happens, it can happen, if you do not account for it then you have a weakness in your game.  Sorry, that is just the reality of the situation.


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hanzou,
> 
> *The guard as we both know is a neutral position* where both people have opportunity to attack and defend.  Both have openings.



Yeah, how about no. The Guard is a *dominant* position unless you're dealing with an equally trained opponent in a striking environment, such as a MMA fighter, or a grappler specially trained to counter it, like Sambo or an equally or superior skilled grappler. Against someone like that, the guard slips into neutral territory. Against someone who has little to no grappling knowledge, the guard is a positional advantage which the person inside guard must pass out of. Attempting to attack someone while in their guard isn't a good idea unless you're highly trained. If you're a hannibal lector wannabe with little to no grappling experience, you're going to be going to sleep with your limbs snapped rather quickly.



> There are opportunities within those openings to attack and well yes there are opportunities to bite.  If you are biting and someone is mounted on you that is probably going to work out as well as trying to punch your way out. (when you are on the bottom)  Yet, it is still a possibility and if you know when and wear that possibility has a greater chance.   There are lots of opportunities from the top game.  So much that it is easy because no one defends against them.  *Just like there are opportunities to draw your knife, firearm, etc.*



But here's the rub; The person utilizing the guard has far more weapons at their disposal than the person stuck in the guard. Not only do they have more limbs attacking, but they control your posture and balance, and can easily attack your arms and upper body, or completely sweep. If you've never been inside the guard and you're fighting against someone who is highly skilled from that position, you're screwed.

We can both agree that there's a big difference between biting someone, and pulling out a knife or a gun, right? I have no problem saying that if you're grappling against someone with a knife or a gun, you're in a world of trouble. However, if someone is in your guard trying to bite you, you should view that as a freebie.



> Listen you might be really surprised at over the course of time how many people have actually been bitten.  It happens, it can happen, if you do not account for it then you have a weakness in your game.  Sorry, that is just the reality of the situation.



There's a difference between saying that a bite can hurt, or be painful, and saying that someone biting you negates skilled grappling completely. The former is common sense. The latter is complete nonsense.


----------



## sinthetik_mistik

Hanzou said:


> You say that BJJ has a glaring weakness from biting attacks. Where exactly? What position opens you up to getting bitten by someone?
> 
> You honestly believe that someone could bite their way out of guard? How exactly? What about the mount? You think someone I'm sitting on top of has the speed and mobility to bite me before I pound their face on? I posted that vid to showcase the principle behind the guard position. It doesn't need to be an actual fight to show that attempting playground antics in an inferior position is a recipie for disaster.


yeah i'm no expert in grappling but if you are on the receiving end of a ground'n'pound, biting aint gonna do you s***


----------



## sinthetik_mistik

unless you're like that African tribesman in Ace Ventura When Nature Calls who bit Ace's fist after Ace threw a punch at him lol! just kidding


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou,

*No one is saying that biting negates skilled grappling* but it can make the situation tenuous and potentially dangerous for a skilled grappler or even perilous if he looks at it as* a freebie*.    Instead, what I am saying is that you better take it into consideration and have a game plan if it happens or how to prevent it in the first place. * It can be very dangerous to you if you do not*. 

Also, the guard is a neutral position.  It can be an advantageous position against the right person but it could also be an incredibly poor choice to choose in a moment of violence against the wrong person or in the wrong setting.  Anytime you are on your back/side in guard you are working to improve your position.  Sure there are solid submissions those submissions skill sets do not make it a dominant position like the mount, back, crossbody, etc.   I have a strong guard and open guard game and can play the rubber guard, mission control, etc. but I sure as heck do not want to be in it on the street.  I would much rather be in the mount, back, crossbody, etc.  Or even better standing up with a weapon in my hand if warranted.  The guard is a neutral position in the BJJ hierarchy of positions.  *Sure it can be dangerous but.... it can be dangerous to be in it as well.*

*Funny thing is* I know people (ie. Collegiate athletes from a major university) with no training that would dominate most average BJJ guys in their guard based on their attributes alone. (purple belts and lower)   I know a powerful man that your guard, my guard and probably even Tony's guard would be of little help. (Tony would probably fair better just because of his size)  Yet, when you are dealing with a 7 foot 300lb man being on your back is just plain going to suck.  He is not even the scariest person attribute wise that I know.  That guy is just 6 foot 2 but probably about 4 feet across and has all functional strength from his job.  Crazy strength.

There is always a counter, always an opening, always someone whose attributes outmatch yours and may beat your training, etc.  Take into consideration these things and do not be so dismissive.  It is like you read the BJJ bible and everything else is wrong.  You may find that the bible you are currently reading may not be all you believed it was down the road.  Understand that BJJ has a very small market on violence.  It is exceptionally good at what it does but.... it isn't the end all be all.  If it was, a pure BJJ stylist could still dominate in MMA.  Those day's are long gone.  BJJ stylists need BJJ, some wrestling training, Striking, etc. just to be competitive.  There is a whole big world of martial training out there beyond BJJ. * Take a look and you may find that there is a lot more you could add to your skill sets!*  Since you love competitive martial systems why not add some Muay Thai for striking.  Plus explore some non-competitive skills like firearms and blade training to round out your skill sets.  That may open a whole new world for you!


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hanzou,
> 
> *No one is saying that biting negates skilled grappling* but it can make the situation tenuous and potentially dangerous for a skilled grappler or even perilous if he looks at it as* a freebie*.    Instead, what I am saying is that you better take it into consideration and have a game plan if it happens or how to prevent it in the first place. * It can be very dangerous to you if you do not*.



Biting negating grappling was the argument that started this discussion Brian, as well as the meaning behind that video that Elder posted.




> Also, the guard is a neutral position





> .  It can be an advantageous position against the right person but it could also be an incredibly poor choice to choose in a moment of violence against the wrong person or in the wrong setting.



Frankly that can be said about any position.



> Anytime you are on your back/side in guard you are working to improve your position.



Not always. In some cases ending the confrontation from that position is the more favorable option. If I can end the fight with a triangle choke, why would I perform a sweep to continue the encounter?



> Sure there are solid submissions those submissions skill sets do not make it a dominant position like the mount, back, crossbody, etc.   I have a strong guard and open guard game and can play the rubber guard, mission control, etc. but I sure as heck do not want to be in it on the street.  I would much rather be in the mount, back, crossbody, etc.  Or even better standing up with a weapon in my hand if warranted.



I said that the guard is a dominant position, not the most dominant position. There is a difference.



> The guard is a neutral position in the BJJ hierarchy of positions.  *Sure it can be dangerous but.... it can be dangerous to be in it as well.*



Neutral means that you both have equal footing. Two people squaring off against each other is a neutral position. Two Judoka gripping opposing lapel and sleeves is a neutral position. One person having their movement restricted and attempting to escape while the other is attacking posture and looking for submissions and sweeps is not a neutral position.

*



			Funny thing is
		
Click to expand...

*


> I know people (ie. Collegiate athletes from a major university) with no training that would dominate most average BJJ guys in their guard based on their attributes alone. (purple belts and lower)   I know a powerful man that your guard, my guard and probably even Tony's guard would be of little help. (Tony would probably fair better just because of his size)  Yet, when you are dealing with a 7 foot 300lb man being on your back is just plain going to suck.  He is not even the scariest person attribute wise that I know.  That guy is just 6 foot 2 but probably about 4 feet across and has all functional strength from his job.  Crazy strength.



Again, the same can be said about any position. A 100lb person could probably get bench pressed off that guy while attempting side mount. Is side mount not a dominant position because some huge guy can power you out of it? I saw a guy get smashed by a larger guy while in back mount. He got knocked out cold from the impact. Is back mount now not a superior position?



> There is always a counter, always an opening, always someone whose attributes outmatch yours and may beat your training, etc.  Take into consideration these things and do not be so dismissive.  It is like you read the BJJ bible and everything else is wrong.  You may find that the bible you are currently reading may not be all you believed it was down the road.  Understand that BJJ has a very small market on violence.  It is exceptionally good at what it does but.... it isn't the end all be all.  If it was, a pure BJJ stylist could still dominate in MMA.  Those day's are long gone.  BJJ stylists need BJJ, some wrestling training, Striking, etc. just to be competitive.  There is a whole big world of martial training out there beyond BJJ. * Take a look and you may find that there is a lot more you could add to your skill sets!*  Since you love competitive martial systems why not add some Muay Thai for striking.  Plus explore some non-competitive skills like firearms and blade training to round out your skill sets.  That may open a whole new world for you!



Hey, I have no problem stating that BJJ has weaknesses. I'm simply saying that biting isn't one of them, and attempting to bite someone while in their guard is a pretty dumb thing to do. I'm pretty sure I asked exactly how you can bite someone while in their guard. The only solid answer I got was from Drop Bear, and that was during a pass attempt. I'm still waiting for yours.


----------



## sinthetik_mistik

Hanzou said:


> A 100lb person could probably get bench pressed off that guy while attempting side mount.


yeah i know a BJJ artist who can bench press 350 pounds. now that is a formidable combination


----------



## Tony Dismukes

"The guard" covers a lot of territory. If we're talking about your standard basic closed guard, I would rate bottom of the guard as neutral at best. I teach my students that if the fight goes to the ground, they want to be on top. In real life you can't always manage that. The other guy might be bigger, stronger, a better wrestler, or just catch you by surprise and end up on top. That's where the guard comes in - as an equalizer so that the fighter on the bottom can stay in the fight and maintain offense as well as defense.

Of course, if you are a skilled ground fighter and your opponent is not, then a neutral ground position (such as guard) can still be dominant for you. That's not because the guard is a superior position. It's because you're on the ground and only one of you knows how to fight there. If both combatants are equally skilled on the ground, then the guard is no better than neutral for the guy on bottom. In MMA, the odds are slightly in favor of the guy on top of guard.

(There are specific configurations within guard which can be  advantageous. If I have you in full-fledged Williams guard with the correct angle off to the side, then I am definitely winning at the moment.)

Of course that's just my opinion. However, I've heard the same thing from a lot of much more senior and accomplished BJJ black belts.)


----------



## Hanzou

Yeah, I've heard similar arguments, but they really don't make much sense. I think the ruleset in MMA pushes the guard into a weaker position for a variety of reasons. Despite that, there's been plenty of fighters in MMA who have employed guards to submit people. 

In Bjj itself, its pretty clearly a position of advantage, despite being on the back.

For example, the back mount is considered a dominant position, but that mount can easily place you on your back, and have your arms and legs completely wrapped up around your opponent, with less capability to sweep into something else if the situation warrants it.

You can get out of side mount in a variety of ways, and you can get easily submitted or attacked from that position. However, no one would argue that that's a dominant position.

If you're not good in the top mount, side mount, or back mount against a superior fighter, you'll get jacked up just as easily if you had that fighter in a weak guard.

On the same token, I consider the half guard to be a neutral position. From there, both parties have a pretty equal chance to damage each other, and movement is restricted on both sides. I simply don't view a closed guard, or its myriad of variations to be neutral. The person on the bottom simply has too much control, and too much opportunity to dismantle the person on top. So much so in fact, that many advocate to focus on passing the guard only, and to not attempt to attack someone while in their guard.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou,

*In the guard and in other positions there are plenty of places where someone could bite you* all they have to do is have their head close enough to your body at any position while grappling.  Watch the next time you roll and see how many times some ones face is close to you or on your body. Now, I know and you know that there are many times when some ones head/face is near or pressed against our skin when grappling.  I usually do not try to spoon feed people because I believe you should learn some of these things on your own.  If some one is in your guard with their hands on your biceps and they put their face on your belly they can bite you.  It is better if they slightly turn to the side and bite you along your rib cage.  If some one is in your guard and they wrap their arm around your head they can then place their face into your neck.  If you pull someone in deep with your guard trying to negate their ability to punch you their head will invariably be right by your neck and guess what they can bite you.  These are really simple things to do and as such if you are in a physical encounter you should be aware of them.  No different than you should be aware of where someone could head butt you.  Anytime you would wish to see how the above can be done my door is always open to teach and I will be happy to show you..


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

By the way I have opened up more than a few peoples eyes by showing them this.  That includes BJJ instructors, wrestlers and other grapplers as well.  It really is not rocket science.

Saying all that as I have said before it is not what I would consider a "go to" move because of the blood in the mouth issue.  However, in a pinch it could be really useful!


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hanzou,
> 
> *No one is saying that biting negates skilled grappling* but it can make the situation tenuous and potentially dangerous for a skilled grappler or even perilous if he looks at it as* a freebie*.
> 
> Also, the guard is a neutral position.  It can be an advantageous position against the right person but it could also be an incredibly poor choice to choose in a moment of violence against the wrong person or in the wrong setting.




A "skilled grappler" ain't gonna PULL GUARD on you in the street. What the hell for?  A "skilled grappler", will pick you up, and slam you, preferably head first, into the cement....along with his entire body weight and generated momentum, simultaneously crashing down on top of you as you strike the cement. This hurts like hell on a judo mat, that's elevated with used automobile tires underneath, a wooden platform and 3-4 layers of thick matting on top. So imagine how it would be on the cement.

If you're not KO'ed yet, after this slam, this "skilled grappler" is going to mount you and start raining punches downward until you're good and bloodied. He doesn't even have to be a good striker, as this dominant position with optimum leverage of punches raining downward to your head.....sandwiched between the cement and healthy servings of knuckle sandwiches...makes even the stinkiest punches of a grappler, significant in causing damage. But much, much worse, are the downward elbows. 

And biting, well, I really don't need to pay anyone to teach me how to bite someone. I'd bite too if I had no  other way out. But in general, it's not going to cause that much damage (if any) considering what's available to bite at. If someone better than me, had me in a full mount and pulverizing my face into the concrete....I'd be more worried about the little head movement that I'm afforded to dodge the strikes while trying to escape....rather than commit my teeth to biting him, and therefore, my head is now completely stationary for him to drop elbows after elbows onto my temple, back of the head, spine, etc. What can I bite at while being fully mounted? Maybe the tip of his inner thigh, near his knee? That ain't gonna hurt him if he was just sitting around watching TV so imagine the amount of adrenaline pumped up during a fight to further not feel anything. I certainly can't bite at his testicles, unless I have a 12" neck or something.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Fried Rice,

I am a skilled grappler.  BJJ and Wrestling experience.  Well aware of what grappling can do as I do it everyday!   I am also an advocate for training in BJJ and recommend it regularly.  However, as with any system you need to explore it's weaknesses as well.


----------



## Danny T

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Fried Rice,
> I am a skilled grappler.  BJJ and Wrestling experience.  Well aware of what grappling can do as I do it everyday!   I am also an advocate for training in BJJ and recommend it regularly.


I truly dislike being the one to break this to you Brian but your BJJ is obviously lacking. You can not be a skilled grappler for you still rely on utilizing punching, weapons, and now Biting!!


Brian R. VanCise said:


> However,.. you need to explore it's weaknesses as well.


Weakness?? In BJJ? Blasphemy!!  So embarrassing and disappointed.


----------



## FriedRice

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Fried Rice,
> 
> I am a skilled grappler.  BJJ and Wrestling experience.  Well aware of what grappling can do as I do it everyday!   I am also an advocate for training in BJJ and recommend it regularly.  However, as with any system you need to explore it's weaknesses as well.



Cool, I didn't read the rest of your post, so my mistake.

The main weakness of being a grappler only, is probably not being used to getting punched in the face for real and repeatedly. This is the case when I punch and move, pure BJJ guys from Black Belts and down as they try to take me down.  

Getting bitten, in my opinion, is not that big of a deal. Adrenaline takes care of most to all of the pain. The human biting power is not really that powerful to begin with. Bites to the arms, legs, abs, etc. aren't big deals. What is a big deal is the Biter's arm that's about to get popped off at the elbow. UFC fighters who spends thousands of hours getting their heads bashed in as part of regular training, rarely quit from a beatdown and will almost always protest stoppages....but will almost always tap when in an armbar......for the past 20+ years of MMA.

There's a video of a fat guy who bit off a chunk of another dude's ear in a streetfight on YouTube. The video panned to a piece of his ear, all bloody, on the ground. The guy with the bit off ear had no problem continuing the fight, but the cops came and tasered him as I recalled (as they didn't see the who started it and thought he was the aggressor). 

It'll probably hurt more afterward, but the biggest risk is probably, infection; but easily remedied with antibiotics.


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hanzou,
> 
> *In the guard and in other positions there are plenty of places where someone could bite you* all they have to do is have their head close enough to your body at any position while grappling.  Watch the next time you roll and see how many times some ones face is close to you or on your body. Now, I know and you know that there are many times when some ones head/face is near or pressed against our skin when grappling.  I usually do not try to spoon feed people because I believe you should learn some of these things on your own.  If some one is in your guard with their hands on your biceps and they put their face on your belly they can bite you.  It is better if they slightly turn to the side and bite you along your rib cage.  If some one is in your guard and they wrap their arm around your head they can then place their face into your neck.  If you pull someone in deep with your guard trying to negate their ability to punch you their head will invariably be right by your neck and guess what they can bite you.  These are really simple things to do and as such if you are in a physical encounter you should be aware of them.  No different than you should be aware of where someone could head butt you.  Anytime you would wish to see how the above can be done my door is always open to teach and I will be happy to show you..



Can that really be considered a weakness of Bjj when all it requires to negate it is minor adjustments to positioning? Further, attempting to bite someone leads to leaving yourself open to getting caught. For example, going for an arm behind my neck while in my guard is a great way to get arm barred or triangled way before you get close enough to bite the neck.

In the end, it's a fool-hardy proposition. You're better off trying to punch your way out.


----------



## FriedRice

Hanzou said:


> Can that really be considered a weakness of Bjj when all it requires to negate it is minor adjustments to positioning? Further, attempting to bite someone leads to leaving yourself open to getting caught. For example, going for an arm behind my neck while in my guard is a great way to get arm barred or triangled way before you get close enough to bite the neck.
> 
> In the end, it's a fool-hardy proposition. Your better off trying to punch your way out.



Yeah, if I have the armbar locked in and cranking, it's only about 1 second later that the pain on the elbow joint will be excruciating. The Biter's mouth will release the bite on my inner thigh in order to scream.  But hell....even if the armbar wasn't locked in.....and this was in a dark alley with no signs of cameras around and in a mystical land such as Flea Bottom of Westeros...forget the armbar now.... I think I'll just reach down and take an eyeball home for biting.


----------



## Danny T

FriedRice said:


> Cool, I didn't read the rest of your post, so my mistake.
> 
> The main weakness of being a grappler only, is probably not being used to getting punched in the face for real and repeatedly. This is the case when I punch and move, pure BJJ guys from Black Belts and down as they try to take me down.
> 
> Getting bitten, in my opinion, is not that big of a deal. Adrenaline takes care of most to all of the pain. The human biting power is not really that powerful to begin with. Bites to the arms, legs, abs, etc. aren't big deals. What is a big deal is the Biter's arm that's about to get popped off at the elbow. UFC fighters who spends thousands of hours getting their heads bashed in as part of regular training, rarely quit from a beatdown and will almost always protest stoppages....but will almost always tap when in an armbar......for the past 20+ years of MMA.
> 
> There's a video of a fat guy who bit off a chunk of another dude's ear in a streetfight on YouTube. The guy with the bit off ear had no problem continuing the fight, but the cops came and tasered him as I recalled (as they didn't see the who started it and thought he was the aggressor).
> 
> It'll probably hurt more afterward, but the biggest risk is probably, infection; but easily remedied with antibiotics.


Big bites don't hurt, it is the 1/4 to 1/2 that tears out hunks of flesh.

UFC fighters tap due to the pay check, training time loss, and being able to get another fight in a short period for another pay check. 
A KO gets you 60 day suspension then back to training and fighting in under 6 months. A broken arm or elbow 6 months then back to training or even longer or possible career ending.


----------



## FriedRice

Danny T said:


> Big bites don't hurt, it is the 1/4 to 1/2 that tears out hunks of flesh.



These don't hurt that much neither during a fight. Most experienced fighters shouldn't have a problem with any of these bites with maybe the exceptions of bites to the genitals, which is also carries a huge shock factor, NPI.



> UFC fighters tap due to the pay check, training time loss, and being able to get another fight in a short period for another pay check.
> A KO gets you 60 day suspension then back to training and fighting in under 6 months. A broken arm or elbow 6 months then back to training or even longer or possible career ending.



No, it's both but mostly due to pain and other reasons. Getting your head bashed in, while painful, is not as clear and evident as having an arm trapped and about to be broken. And it's frivolous to keep the fight going by not tapping and allowing your arm to break; as afterward, the fight would be even more so of a blood bath, trying to fight with dangling, broken at the elbow, arm.


----------



## Hanzou

Danny T said:


> Big bites don't hurt, it is the 1/4 to 1/2 that tears out hunks of flesh.
> 
> UFC fighters tap due to the pay check, training time loss, and being able to get another fight in a short period for another pay check.
> A KO gets you 60 day suspension then back to training and fighting in under 6 months. A broken arm or elbow 6 months then back to training or even longer or possible career ending.



Are we fighting with no clothes on or something?

I tend to go outside of my home wearing a shirt and pants. In the colder months, I'm wearing layers of clothing. I have serious doubts that someone can bite through a jacket, a cotton shirt, a sweater, or denim jeans. Further, you're going to feel the bite down even if they don't get through the clothes, and you'll respond accordingly. Probably by elbowing them in the face repeatedly.

Again, attempting to bite someone while in an inferior position is a pretty dumb thing to do. As Drop Bear stated, if you know how grappling works, you can probably use it as an escape hatch to escape the grips of a superior grappler. However, if you have zero grappling knowledge and wind up on the bottom of a side mount and attempt to bite someone's forearm, you're going to get your face bashed in.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

One thing we do agree on Hanzou is that having a good grappling base in your training is very important for personal protection!


----------



## Danny T

Hanzou said:


> Are we fighting with no clothes on or something?


Possibility. At the beach maybe. Saw a couple of videos of the guys at Gracie Academy doing some training and explaining what they were doing on a beach.



Hanzou said:


> I tend to go outside of my home wearing a shirt and pants. In the colder months, I'm wearing layers of clothing. I have serious doubts that someone can bite through a jacket, a cotton shirt, a sweater, or denim jeans.


Ok, your grappling skill is so good you will never have any exposure to bites, strikes, pushes, kicks, punches, pokes or any other action.


----------



## Paul_D

To assess who effective BJJ is "in the street" then surely we need to ascertain how effective it is at dealing with the most frequent HAOV, as they are the ones you are most likely to experience "on the street"?

* Male on Male, Close Quarters:*


One person pushes, hands to chest, which is normally followed by the pushee striking first, to the head.
A swinging punch to the head.
A front clothing grab, one handed, followed by punch to the head.
A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a head butt.
A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a knee to the groin.
A bottle, glass, or ashtray to the head.
A lashing kick to groin/lower legs.
A broken bottle/glass jabbed to face.
A slash with knife, most commonly a 3 to 4″ lockblade knife or kitchen utility knife. (Apart from muggings, sexual assaults and gang violence, the hunting/combat type knife is seldom used)
A grappling style head lock.

*Offences against the person, male on female:*

This data was gathered from interviews with victims and offenders and from statements. Data only covers robbery/sexual methodology and changes relative to first contact with victim ie., venue/ night/day etc.

Domestic violence is not covered as this is a specific subject of its’ own.


The victim was approached from the rear/side/front, a threat was made with a weapon, and then the weapon was hidden. Then the victim’s right upper arm was held by the attacker’s left hand and the victim was led away.
A silent or rushing approach was made from the victim’s rear, and then a rear neck/head lock applied and the victim dragged away.
The same approach as in #2, with a rear waist grab. The victim was carried/dragged away, normally into bushes/alley etc.
The victim was pinned to a wall with a throat grab with the attacker’s left hand. A weapon-shown threat was made, and then the weapon hidden, and the victim led away.
The victim was approached from rear/ front/side. The attacker grabbed the victim’s hair with his left hand, and then she was dragged away.


*The Most Common Wrist Grips, Male On Female:*


The attacker’s left hand, thumb uppermost, gripping the victim’s raised right wrist. The attacker threatens/ gesticulates with his right hand.
With the victim’s right arm down, the attacker grips the victim’s right upper arm with his left hand and her right wrist with his right hand.
The victim raises both arms, with both of her wrists gripped. The attacker’s hands are vertical with the attacker’s thumbs uppermost.
With the victim’s arms down, the attacker grabs both upper arms.
With the victim’s right arm down, the attacker’s left hand grabs just below the right elbow, and his right hand grabs her wrist.
I don't study BJJ myself, so I can;t comment on how many of these scenarios BJJ prepares you for.  I shall leave that to someoen who studies it.


----------



## kuniggety

The answer is always flying arm bar. Seriously though, great list Paul_D. As a student of BJJ (not an expert though), I can think of reasonable reactions I would have to all of these situations given my training. I do have some prior striking experience but am primarily a grappler now.


----------



## Hanzou

Danny T said:


> Possibility. At the beach maybe. Saw a couple of videos of the guys at Gracie Academy doing some training and explaining what they were doing on a beach.



Yeah, I tend to wear clothing at the beach as well. As do most people. I suppose if I'm at a nude beach somewhere....



> Ok, your grappling skill is so good you will never have any exposure to bites, strikes, pushes, kicks, punches, pokes or any other action.



Nice strawman. Where did I say anything about strikes, pushing, or action in general? I'm simply pointing out that I tend to wear clothes outdoors, and it's pretty hard to imagine someone biting through my clothes to the point where I can't react and counter them.

Especially if I'm in a dominant position.


----------



## Hanzou

Paul_D said:


> To assess who effective BJJ is "in the street" then surely we need to ascertain how effective it is at dealing with the most frequent HAOV, as they are the ones you are most likely to experience "on the street"?
> 
> * Male on Male, Close Quarters:*
> 
> 
> One person pushes, hands to chest, which is normally followed by the pushee striking first, to the head.
> A swinging punch to the head.
> A front clothing grab, one handed, followed by punch to the head.
> A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a head butt.
> A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a knee to the groin.
> A bottle, glass, or ashtray to the head.
> A lashing kick to groin/lower legs.
> A broken bottle/glass jabbed to face.
> A slash with knife, most commonly a 3 to 4″ lockblade knife or kitchen utility knife. (Apart from muggings, sexual assaults and gang violence, the hunting/combat type knife is seldom used)
> A grappling style head lock.
> 
> *Offences against the person, male on female:*
> 
> This data was gathered from interviews with victims and offenders and from statements. Data only covers robbery/sexual methodology and changes relative to first contact with victim ie., venue/ night/day etc.
> 
> Domestic violence is not covered as this is a specific subject of its’ own.
> 
> 
> The victim was approached from the rear/side/front, a threat was made with a weapon, and then the weapon was hidden. Then the victim’s right upper arm was held by the attacker’s left hand and the victim was led away.
> A silent or rushing approach was made from the victim’s rear, and then a rear neck/head lock applied and the victim dragged away.
> The same approach as in #2, with a rear waist grab. The victim was carried/dragged away, normally into bushes/alley etc.
> The victim was pinned to a wall with a throat grab with the attacker’s left hand. A weapon-shown threat was made, and then the weapon hidden, and the victim led away.
> The victim was approached from rear/ front/side. The attacker grabbed the victim’s hair with his left hand, and then she was dragged away.
> 
> 
> *The Most Common Wrist Grips, Male On Female:*
> 
> 
> The attacker’s left hand, thumb uppermost, gripping the victim’s raised right wrist. The attacker threatens/ gesticulates with his right hand.
> With the victim’s right arm down, the attacker grips the victim’s right upper arm with his left hand and her right wrist with his right hand.
> The victim raises both arms, with both of her wrists gripped. The attacker’s hands are vertical with the attacker’s thumbs uppermost.
> With the victim’s arms down, the attacker grabs both upper arms.
> With the victim’s right arm down, the attacker’s left hand grabs just below the right elbow, and his right hand grabs her wrist.
> I don't study BJJ myself, so I can;t comment on how many of these scenarios BJJ prepares you for.  I shall leave that to someoen who studies it.



Traditional BJJ (Gracie, Fadda) handles those situations just fine. Sport BJJ does not. 

Example:


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Paul_D said:


> To assess who effective BJJ is "in the street" then surely we need to ascertain how effective it is at dealing with the most frequent HAOV, as they are the ones you are most likely to experience "on the street"?
> 
> * Male on Male, Close Quarters:*
> 
> 
> One person pushes, hands to chest, which is normally followed by the pushee striking first, to the head.
> A swinging punch to the head.
> A front clothing grab, one handed, followed by punch to the head.
> A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a head butt.
> A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a knee to the groin.
> A bottle, glass, or ashtray to the head.
> A lashing kick to groin/lower legs.
> A broken bottle/glass jabbed to face.
> A slash with knife, most commonly a 3 to 4″ lockblade knife or kitchen utility knife. (Apart from muggings, sexual assaults and gang violence, the hunting/combat type knife is seldom used)
> A grappling style head lock.
> 
> *Offences against the person, male on female:*
> 
> This data was gathered from interviews with victims and offenders and from statements. Data only covers robbery/sexual methodology and changes relative to first contact with victim ie., venue/ night/day etc.
> 
> Domestic violence is not covered as this is a specific subject of its’ own.
> 
> 
> The victim was approached from the rear/side/front, a threat was made with a weapon, and then the weapon was hidden. Then the victim’s right upper arm was held by the attacker’s left hand and the victim was led away.
> A silent or rushing approach was made from the victim’s rear, and then a rear neck/head lock applied and the victim dragged away.
> The same approach as in #2, with a rear waist grab. The victim was carried/dragged away, normally into bushes/alley etc.
> The victim was pinned to a wall with a throat grab with the attacker’s left hand. A weapon-shown threat was made, and then the weapon hidden, and the victim led away.
> The victim was approached from rear/ front/side. The attacker grabbed the victim’s hair with his left hand, and then she was dragged away.
> 
> 
> *The Most Common Wrist Grips, Male On Female:*
> 
> 
> The attacker’s left hand, thumb uppermost, gripping the victim’s raised right wrist. The attacker threatens/ gesticulates with his right hand.
> With the victim’s right arm down, the attacker grips the victim’s right upper arm with his left hand and her right wrist with his right hand.
> The victim raises both arms, with both of her wrists gripped. The attacker’s hands are vertical with the attacker’s thumbs uppermost.
> With the victim’s arms down, the attacker grabs both upper arms.
> With the victim’s right arm down, the attacker’s left hand grabs just below the right elbow, and his right hand grabs her wrist.
> I don't study BJJ myself, so I can;t comment on how many of these scenarios BJJ prepares you for.  I shall leave that to someoen who studies it.



Cool list. What's the source?


----------



## Danny T

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, I tend to wear clothing at the beach as well. As do most people. I suppose if I'm at a nude beach somewhere....


Most people wear swimwear at the beach



Hanzou said:


> Nice strawman. Where did I say anything about strikes, pushing, or action in general?


No you didn't at this juncture.
However the sum of your opinions from all your posts state otherwise.


----------



## drop bear

You want to get on to a guy pretty quickly who is biting you. It isn't very nice. I wouldn't ignore it for two long.


----------



## Hanzou

Danny T said:


> Most people wear swimwear at the beach



Swimwear isn't clothing? Additionally I tend to wear a shirt and cargo shorts if I'm fishing, or walking along the beach at dusk or dawn. The beach isn't always a warm place.



> No you didn't at this juncture.
> However the sum of your opinions from all your posts state otherwise.



Feel free to find a post where I said that you don't have to worry about anything if you've trained in BJJ.


----------



## FriedRice

if someone bites, tries to eye gouge, etc. then they shouldn't expect tapping or being KO'ed and unconscious to be the end of the fight....especially if there aren't any witnesses nor surveillance cameras around.


----------



## Danny T

Hanzou said:


> Feel free to find a post where I said that you don't have to worry about anything if you've trained in BJJ.


That is not what I wrote.
However you did write,"You say that BJJ has a glaring weakness from biting attacks. Where exactly? What position opens you up to getting bitten by someone?
You honestly believe that someone could bite their way out of guard? How exactly? What about the mount?"
Your context and subsequent questions are that biting vs a BJJ person is futile.
You also wrote, "However, if someone is in your guard trying to bite you, you should view that as a freebie."
Same sort of connotation has been used within your other opinions of a BJJ person vs whatever.
From what you write I can assume you don't use any tsubo points either to create a response, change of position, or movement either.


----------



## Paul_D

Tony Dismukes said:


> Cool list. What's the source?



Found it here Tony:-
HAOV Habitual Acts of Violence revisiting 2005 John Titchen s Blog


----------



## Ironbear24

Mephisto said:


> Bjj and ground fighting are unique in that a small trained person can have quite an advantage on a larger untrained person on the ground. It's one of the few arts to really level the playing field between men and women. A larger trained man will still have an advantage but I've seen small female blue belts who can handle make white belts with relative ease. But what about the broken glass, and aids needles on the ground? The hordes of multiple opponents? Training in ground fighting gives you the training necessary to control and change your position. If you end up on your back (beyond your control) you'll have the ability to sweep and get up or change your position. As for multiple opponents? Good luck, without I weapon I don't think any art will give a smaller person an advantage. But it's still a scenario worth training.
> 
> Bjj is a specialty worth training, that or another art that has proven success in grappling. When you roll with resisting opponents regularly there's no speculation about how you'd apply your skill you've done it over and over. No training will ever 100% simulate reality. You can limit rules and roll or spar hard and learn to control an aggressive opponent or you can lighten the intensity and wirk more combative techniques. Both are a good approach to self defense. I personally value the ability to control an aggressive attacker first by trsinibg regular sparring.



So it's good at beating inexperienced people? All martial arts are good at this, any person with a little bit of training can generally beat someone with none.

That's not a good way to sell the style, I will say though that it can beat someone that has no ground training in a safer manner. You don't want to trade blows with an experienced striker if you can't even dance well with a yellow belt or something.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> So it's good at beating inexperienced people? All martial arts are good at this, any person with a little bit of training can generally beat someone with none.
> 
> That's not a good way to sell the style, I will say though that it can beat someone that has no ground training in a safer manner. You don't want to trade blows with an experienced striker if you can't even dance well with a yellow belt or something.



No, its very good at beating experienced people because the majority of fighters (especially traditionally trained martial artists) don't train how to defend themselves on the ground. They develop ridiculous "strategies" that don't amount to a hill of beans and will get them submitted very quickly.

You would think that after almost 25 years of Bjj being on the scene, people would get the message. Unfortunately it seems that we've cycled back to the nonsense that permeated martial arts before 1992. Now I'm hearing people say that they've learned how to avoid getting taken down period, which ranks right up there with ki-master silliness.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> No, its very good at beating experienced people because the majority of fighters (especially traditionally trained martial artists) don't train how to defend themselves on the ground. They develop ridiculous "strategies" that don't amount to a hill of beans and will get them submitted very quickly.
> 
> You would think that after almost 25 years of Bjj being on the scene, people would get the message. Unfortunately it seems that we've cycled back to the nonsense that permeated martial arts before 1992. Now I'm hearing people say that they've learned how to avoid getting taken down period, which ranks right up there with ki-master silliness.



You said the same thing I said. Can beat someone with no ground training. I get what you mean though and honestly. That's cool. Let the stupid people be stupid and get submitted by anyone with some grappling experience. 

If the grappler can get past thier strikes and close the gap then they have earned the win fair and square.


----------



## oaktree

What I always wonder about bjj on the streets is how you deal with the guy who has knives at his side and at his ankle. I always think if one of those guys in my guard he may get some punches in but my knife is slicing up his kidney when I grab it from my ankle.or taking from my side slicing open his intestines.something to think about when you grapple with a knife guy we like to hide our knifes till the end.


----------



## drop bear

oaktree said:


> What I always wonder about bjj on the streets is how you deal with the guy who has knives at his side and at his ankle. I always think if one of those guys in my guard he may get some punches in but my knife is slicing up his kidney when I grab it from my ankle.or taking from my side slicing open his intestines.something to think about when you grapple with a knife guy we like to hide our knifes till the end.



Being in guard vs a knife is pretty bad.

But if they are on top that is the best position you have.

Given a choice if you actually want to finish a guy with a knife you want them on their back.  Because it is the most dominant position.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

oaktree said:


> What I always wonder about bjj on the streets is how you deal with the guy who has knives at his side and at his ankle. I always think if one of those guys in my guard he may get some punches in but my knife is slicing up his kidney when I grab it from my ankle.or taking from my side slicing open his intestines.something to think about when you grapple with a knife guy we like to hide our knifes till the end.


I actually did this in sparring with friends the other week.

Obviously it wasn't a fully realistic simulation because (after the initial demonstration where I "shanked" my partner without warning to make a point) we knew the knives were present and could be pulled at any time. Still, it was good practice that we really should do more often.

Takeaway points...

Sometimes the position would end up so that the knife was trapped and could not be drawn. This is obviously preferable.

I was pleasantly surprised to find when sparring against the knife on the ground in almost all the positions we tried* I was able to win every time with either only superficial "cuts" or not getting cut at all. This is actually a better success rate than I've had standing.

That's not to say I would advocate going to the ground against a knife. Contributing factors to my success include:
a) we knew the knife was present
b) I'm a more advanced ground grappler (BJJ black belt) than either of the guys I was sparring with (purple belt and white belt).
c) neither of my sparring partners had a lot of training in using the knife. (I think they've both had a handful of classes, I've had significantly more.)
d) we were working strictly one-on-one, which meant I didn't have my attention split monitoring the environment for other attackers and could focus strictly on controlling the guy with the knife.

Overall, I would prefer to be standing and have the option of running.

*(We didn't try starting with the knife wielder on top of side control or in back mount. I think those would be pretty much lost causes for the defender.)

We actually started out working standup with the knife before we moved to the ground. My friend Oscar had been practicing some knife disarms with a friend who does Krav Maga. After I spent some time demonstrating how easily I could stab him even after allowing him to get the initial block and grab my arm, he commented "I'm actually feeling a lot worse and less confident about my knife defense than when we started." I replied "Good! You *shouldn't* feel confident of your ability to defend unarmed against the knife."


----------



## oaktree

I personally would want the opponent on top of me. I want them to feel confident let them work on finding submissions, let me take a punch of two while I reach for one of my knives. If I can't stab him with one and is defending against it, let me get my other knife out and start stabbing in vital areas.
Maybe I try to bridge let you try to regain your balance and slice your veins. Maybe you put your head close to mine as a hold exposing your carotid artery to me. For taking me down I want you to shoot in to me and try to take me down, instead of a guillotine choke my knife is against your throat, maybe as you go into bring me down my knife is in your kidney or in your chest.
Sport grapples don't think about these things and it cost them their life going against someone with a knife.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*As someone who does this type of training all the time for a very long time*.  I can personally say that if someone knows what they are doing you will never see the knife until you have felt it enter you!  There are multiple points where if they know what they are doing you just won't see the knife.  Your defense after this... well welcome to the pain and I will say a prayer for you!  Because if they know what they are doing the knife will enter you in very specific and deadly points. 

Now if someone draws while you can see what they are doing whether they are in a top position or bottom you have a chance of grappling their knife arm for control.  A chance... though it is small.  *Odds are not good in your favor* and Tony is definitely right in his above comments about rather being standing and have the ability to run away.  You see, once you are on the ground your *mobility* is limited and you better gain control of their knife wielding arm or your in for a bad day!  Even gaining control of the knife wielding arm is no guarantee as you better work for positional dominance and a strip/disarm.  *Good luck as you will need it!*

Tony also mentioned side control and back mount being incredibly dangerous to defend as is top position in the half guard, top position in the half mount, etc.  Any position where you may have visibility obstruction of one or more of their hands is bad karma is a weapon/tool is brought into the equation. 

I have personally grappled and introduced BJJ Black Belts, Wrestlers, Judoka, etc. all were vulnerable and realized that this is a place they do not want to be.  However, with some training they would have a better chance in this area than your average person due to their extensive grappling skills and body positional awareness.  The core movement of their system helps them dramatically in this area with a few tweaks.  BJJ is excellent core movement for this with some training!

Also as mentioned before grappling on the ground with a knife involved and multiple attackers?  *You just bought yourself a real life lesson in pain!*

*All of the above should give you a pause to consider having tools of your own to use if needed. ie. handgun, knife, etc.  *If you train well you may be able to utilize your tool before they can bring theirs to bear!


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *As someone who does this type of training all the time for a very long time*. I can personally say that if someone knows what they are doing you will never see the knife until you have felt it enter you!


As I mentioned, we did this workout because my friend Oscar wanted to try the Krav knife defenses he had been learning. I explained that I was always hesitant to teach unarmed knife defenses because of all the false assumptions that people make with them.

To illustrate my point, I gave our friend Lucas a training knife and told him to square up about 10 feet away in a fighting stance. I asked Oscar if he had his knife defenses in mind and was ready to go. He said "yes."

So I pulled out the training knife I had hidden in my gi and stabbed him in the kidneys 5 times before he knew what was going on.

Lesson # 1 - if someone really wants to kill you with a knife, they probably aren't going to square up facing you with the knife visible. One of the big advantages of the knife as a killing tool is its concealability. If you don't see the knife coming, none of your disarms will work. Best defense is not to be in situations where someone wants to stab you. Failing that, learning how to spot concealed weapons could be a useful skill. (Any of our LEOs want to offer tips on how to best do that?)

Lesson # 2 - if someone does brandish a knife openly, there's an excellent chance they aren't out to kill you at that moment. Instead, they probably want to use the _threat_ of the knife to _get_ something from you - they want to rob you or rape you or scare you away or get you to come with them or just terrorize you. There are exceptions, of course. (Someone having a psychotic break or a jilted lover grabbing up a knife in the heat of the moment, for example.) However the first option is generally to recognize what the knife wielder wants and cooperate if it can be done safely (handing over your wallet) or work on escaping if cooperation is unsafe (someone trying to get you to come with them from a public area to a secondary location).

Lesson #3 - If you _do_ see the knife coming and the assailant _is_ out to hurt you - don't stand around trying to practice your knife disarms. Make distance. Find a weapon of your own. Put obstructions between you. Make noise to attract attention. Get to a safe place if at all possible. Even if you are very, very skilled at unarmed knife defenses, your odds are not great if you stand around and wait for the attack.

So when _should_ you try your unarmed knife defenses? In that rare moment where you're lucky enough to see the knife coming but unlucky enough that you are too close (or in too close quarters) to get away.

We worked a bit on this scenario - a last ditch defense against an attack coming in from close quarters. The problem Oscar fond with the disarms he had learned was that it was fairly easy for the knife user to use body movement and their free arm to break free, make space, and continue the attack. What I found worked well for me (not saying this is the best method) was to a) get control of the knife arm, b) control the whole body - off-balancing them continuously and mixing in strikes like knees and head-butts, c) get them to a wall to limit their motion, d) take them down and disarm them. Note - part of controlling the whole body is arranging things so they can't just pass the knife to their free hand and stab you with that.

I'd offer specifics for how I worked to maintain control of the body and weapon arm, but it came out a bit different each time - less a matter of specific techniques and more a matter of general grappling experience.

This lead us to the sparring scenarios I discussed in my previous comment - the idea was that the fight had gone to the ground and only then do you see your opponent pulling out a knife. In this situation, you can't disengage quickly enough to avoid being stabbed, so you have to fight for control of the blade.

BTW - Brian, when I was working from bottom of mount I found myself defaulting to the defense you showed at the seminar I came to. (At least for the initial reversal - once I got on top the disarm depended on the energy my partner gave me.) Worked pretty well - I don't think I got cut once from that position.


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## oaktree

Great discussion guys I am glad to be able to bring in some conversation to the topic at hand in relation to knife. I think bjj or any ground work is awesome just have to tweak it to deal with a knife or come up with a game plan with dealing with guy and one.
I tell my Taijiquan guys the same thing about knives and ground work be familiar with the concepts and the realism involved with it.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Hey Tony,

*Glad that defense came in handy.*  It is the major default in that position and works well for that initial reversal!

In standing knife defense I want to run, pull out a weapon/tool, etc. if possible.  If it all goes down to fast and I don't see the knife I probably missed all the other threat indicators both conscious and unconscious.  So if it goes that way and I have to utilize empty hand skill sets I like you Tony want to control their knife bearing arm.  I also want to *light that person up* so that they are fuzzy as I am doing it.  Still, it is going to be a bloody endeavor.

The reality of the knife is that you have to train well, recognize the clues/threat indicators before the attack, preposition your tool to counter, run, get the hell out, etc. *and have a LOT of luck on your side!*   Never under estimate the threat to you and or over estimate your skill set.
*
Tony, It is great that you are exploring, learning and getting some training in!*  It is always fun to experiment and figure out what works for us individually through learning from someone qualified and then experimenting on our own!


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## Brian R. VanCise

Here is a video by our own tgace on threat indicators.  These are unconscious ones as there are also conscious threat indicators.  Still this video is golden:






Even though this has been on MartialTalk before I know we have new members who may not have watched it!


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