# Really bummed about my recent test



## skribs (Oct 12, 2020)

At my school, you can get 3 possible outcomes on your tests: re-testing, pass, or outstanding.  I have gotten all Outstanding results up until now.  Every colored belt test, every dan test, and every intermediate test between dan grades.  (At my school we have "gups" between the Dans, think of it like Black Belt v1.2 or v3.1).

I was testing for 3rd Dan, 3rd Gup (v3.3).  I got "Pass."  Not Outstanding.

I know I made some mistakes.  One of our 20 punch combinations I messed up one of the several times we did it.  One of our 23 kick combinations I messed up once out of the couple times we did it.  I messed up one step in one form (literally one step) and had to redo the form.  I struggled once on a kip-up, and I fell down at the end of a made-up form that features a 540 hook kick into a kneeling position.  This is out of an hour-and-a-half test, where we did around 6-8 forms, all of those punch and kick combinations, 12 jump kick combinations, and a bunch of weapon forms and drills.  I made around 4 mistakes total, which is actually a lot better than I usually do.

I went into his office to talk to him tonight.  I asked why I got "Pass" instead of "Outstanding."

He listed a TON of mistakes that I know for a fact I didn't make.  He told me I messed up a half dozen of the punch combinations, that a couple of my forms I messed up, that I made mistakes on two of my sword forms.  For *each* of the around 20 mistakes he listed, I'm 95% certain I didn't make the mistake.  For example:

Our #3 punching, he told me I was on the wrong leg and he had to say "switch feet" a lot.  I know I did it right.  The only reason he told me to switch feet is because the combination ends on the same foot, and he wants to check both sides.
Our #17 punching, he said I made a mistake on (didn't tell me what).  I know I did it right.
Our #18 punching, he said I messed up which side I'm on.  I know I didn't.  (Or if I did, I'd have noticed).  That's another one that you end on the same side, so if he said "switch feet" it was to see the other side.
Our #19 punching ends in an arc strike.  He said I did a ridge-hand two of the three times.  I know 100% for a fact I did an arc strike. I know, because in that moment, I was proud of myself for doing the arc strike every time.
Our Sword #2 and #3 he told me I messed up my footwork.  I *know *I did the right footwork.  He checked me briefly in his office and I did it right...and I did it the same as I did on my test.
There were a number of other things, but this is the kind of thing he said I messed up.  I'm 95%+ sure on each of them I didn't make that mistake.  I'm 100% sure I didn't make all of those mistakes.  Or even half of them.

He also said at the end of the test, he asked "what do you need to work on?"
I answered "a little bit of everything."  I knew he wanted *something*, and my biggest problem is I might mix up a technique here or there.

He took that to mean I'm not confident in anything, and that I deserve a lower grade because of that.

He offered to let me retest this Friday for a better grade.  I'm 50/50 on whether I want to re-test or quit.  I was already planning to quit after I got my 4th Degree.  At this point, I'm not sure if I even want to stay for it.

If it was just that he wanted me to do better, I'd just take the pass and move on.  If it was one or two things, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.  But I have no idea why he says I made all of those mistakes, when I know I didn't.  The only possible reasons I can find are:

He's lying to try and teach me a lesson
He wasn't paying attention to me and just assumed I made a mistake
He attributed the mistakes the others in the test made to me
I don't see how any of those are fair.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Oct 12, 2020)

Do you respect the master or not? If not, why are you there? If so, why won’t you accept his critiques? You’re considering quitting because you got a “pass” instead of a “pass +?” I’m sorry, but this kind of thinking seems like it should be beneath you. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skribs (Oct 12, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> Do you respect the master or not?



Less and less lately.  He's good about 95% of the time, but every once in a while he does something that really gets me ready to leave.



> If not, why are you there?



At this point, for my next belt degree.  That will give me the rank required to get my Master Certification, at which point I can open my own school and teach things my way.



> If so, why won’t you accept his critiques? You’re considering quitting because you got a “pass” instead of a “pass +?” I’m sorry, but this kind of thinking seems like it should be beneath you.



Why didn't you spell the word "critiques" correctly?"  Why did you not use a question mark at the end of your questions?  Why did you not use a comma before "but"?

Do you accept me critiques on your spelling and grammar?

I don't accept his critiques, because I'm sure I didn't make the mistakes he said I made.  He gave me several concrete examples of things I know I never did.  Maybe I misremember one or two of them.  I know I wasn't that oblivious.  Maybe I made one or two mistakes.  But I don't remember him correcting me, and on a few of them, I remember being proud that I *didn't* mess them up.

I know I made mistakes.  I know there's things I can improve on.  If those were the reasons I didn't get Outstanding, then I'm fine with that.  I'll just get Pass from here on (because I don't think I could do the entire curriculum perfect with no mistakes).  But he listed a *ton* of mistakes I know I didn't make.  I don't accept the critique, because I know I didn't do it.  I have a pretty good memory, and I know what I did and didn't do.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Oct 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> Less and less lately.  He's good about 95% of the time, but every once in a while he does something that really gets me ready to leave.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How do you know? I can look at the physical evidence of your examples to see that I didn’t make the mistakes you mentioned, but you’re talking about “knowing” you didn’t make these mistakes in a long test because you remember? Do you have video evidence? 

You mentioned that maybe the master was trying to teach you a lesson. What lesson do you think he might be trying to teach you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skribs (Oct 12, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> How do you know? I can look at the physical evidence of your examples to see that I didn’t make the mistakes you mentioned, but you’re talking about “knowing” you didn’t make these mistakes in a long test because you remember? Do you have video evidence?



If there was video evidence, I'd have just showed him.

I trust my recollection of events more than his.  That's always been true.  I have a very good memory for things that happened.  I also have a good memory for the curriculum (it's how I've grown so fast in his school, and why I'm the main instructor).

On the other hand, he has a tendency to forget advice he's told us.  For example:

He'll give me a piece of advice one week.  The next week, I'll be following his advice, and he'll ask me why I'm doing it that way and tell me not to do it.  Then a week later he'll give me that advice again.
He'll change the way he does something.  For example, one of our hand grabs sometimes ends with a standing armbar, sometimes ends with a punch.  It goes back and forth.  He'll say "I've told you 100 times" even when he's changed it from how it was.
In this case, I know I'm right because:

Some things he said he had to tell me to switch feet because I was on the wrong foot.  I know he didn't tell me.
Some things he said I did wrong and didn't notice.  It's possible I made one or two of those mistakes, but not the half-dozen that fall into this category.
Some things he said I did wrong, when I remember specifically noticing that I did correct.  And it's not like he doesn't like the way I did the technique.  He says I did the wrong technique (a ridge-hand instead of an arc-hand).  
If he said I needed more power, more speed, better form, better stance, louder kiyhap, or anything like that, I'd have accepted the result.  If he said I'd need to go through without making the mistakes I did notice, I'd also accept it.  I don't know that I can accept these, because I know 75% of them I didn't make, and I'm pretty sure I didn't make the other 25% either.



> You mentioned that maybe the master was trying to teach you a lesson. What lesson do you think he might be trying to teach you?



It might be something about overcoming adversity.  It might just be a kick in the rear to work harder (which I quite literally can't; I'm already there for 4 hours a night after my day job, and he knows how hard I've been working to learn and improve on everything already).  

But if that is his goal, I don't think it's fair the way he's gone about it.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 12, 2020)

Do. MMA.


----------



## skribs (Oct 12, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Do. MMA.



No.

I might do BJJ though.  Although I would need to wait until lockdowns are over to start...


----------



## KOKarate (Oct 13, 2020)

So you’re upset because you didn’t get the grade you wanted and apparently he’s making stuff up? How many people actually know they’ve had mistakes? Very few that’s why it’s always better to have an instructor so they can point it out.

honestly don’t even know why he’s saying he’ll retest you....that’s the grade you got it’s not a fail maybe not as high but that’s life we don’t always get what we want deal with it. You’re a third dan? personally I wouldn’t expect any of my third dans to be complaining so much about a pass grade


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> So you’re upset because you didn’t get the grade you wanted and apparently he’s making stuff up? How many people actually know they’ve had mistakes? Very few that’s why it’s always better to have an instructor so they can point it out.
> 
> honestly don’t even know why he’s saying he’ll retest you....that’s the grade you got it’s not a fail maybe not as high but that’s life we don’t always get what we want deal with it. You’re a third dan? personally I wouldn’t expect any of my third dans to be complaining so much about a pass grade


I'm not complaining about the pass. I'm complaining because as far as I can tell, he either made a ton of mistakes grading me, or he's just flat-out lying.

The two examples I know 100% I didn't mess up are that he said he had to tell me to switch feet (he didn't) and that I did the wrong strike on #19 (I checked myself each time we did that on the test and I did the right one).

If he'd told me that what I did wasn't the quality he expected, then I could improve on that. But what he said I did wrong simply isn't true.


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

If he is right and I did make all of those mistakes without noticing it, then I'm not good enough to get my 4th degree and never will be.  

Even if this test was fair, and I'm the one misremembering, I should quit anyway. Because if that's the case, I know I've reached my ceiling.


----------



## _Simon_ (Oct 13, 2020)

Have not much to offer, but sorry to hear skribs... doesn't make much sense. It wouldn't make sense that he was teaching some lesson, if it was teaching humility, lying about the techniques you did wrong and trying to get you to lie to yourself and admit he is right doesn't seem a good way to go about it.

Didn't realise you were planning on leaving the school at some stage soon. Might be worth sticking it out until 4th degree, but it's your call in the end. Not sure what I'd do in the situation, but I'd be pretty puzzled. Moreso about the stuff I knew for certain I performed correctly. Perhaps it is a case if him changing how things are done and forgetting he said that, like you mentioned..

Were there any other instructors there that were also assessing you that you could ask about how you went?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> If he is right and I did make all of those mistakes without noticing it, then I'm not good enough to get my 4th degree and never will be.
> 
> Even if this test was fair, and I'm the one misremembering, I should quit anyway. Because if that's the case, I know I've reached my ceiling.


  If you think of martial arts like a house with rooms, where each room is a skill set then the following is true.

Everyone has a ceiling.  If you reach the ceiling in one room,  then  go to another room

If you think of fighting systems like a house with room, where each room is a different fighting system then the following is true.
Everyone has ceiling.  If you reach the ceiling in one room, then go to another room.


----------



## jobo (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> At my school, you can get 3 possible outcomes on your tests: re-testing, pass, or outstanding.  I have gotten all Outstanding results up until now.  Every colored belt test, every dan test, and every intermediate test between dan grades.  (At my school we have "gups" between the Dans, think of it like Black Belt v1.2 or v3.1).
> 
> I was testing for 3rd Dan, 3rd Gup (v3.3).  I got "Pass."  Not Outstanding.
> 
> ...


a pass is a pass, take it and move on.

if you thibk he is an idiot or pickibg on you, dont give him anymore money, certainly not for a restest, thats just a silly thing to do and if you were going to quit anyway, say stick it up your %$%$ and quit now.

i would,

of course there is the possibility that your just not outstanding,


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 13, 2020)

Sir, Instructors are human-  and make mistakes.   You need to accept that unless you think it is something else.  If video taping tests are allowed you may want try that in the future.. Then if such issues arise you can review the test.    I recall an instructor telling me I made XXX mistake in pattern YYYY. I said "Yes Sir, I will make certain to correct that." Later, after I thought bout it I realized I didn't do pattern YYY for the test.   Like Jobo said, you know what they call the Med Student who barely passes his licensing boards?  - "Doctor".


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Were there any other instructors there that were also assessing you that you could ask about how you went?



There was one other judge.  She is a step below me (2 steps below me now) and she didn't have my paper.

Her comments to me at the end of the test were something like: "You should compete more, because you'd win a lot of gold medals.  Your power, stamina, etc. were amazing.  It's inspiring to watch you test."  She didn't say anything about me cleaning up mistakes.  I'm going to message her later today and see if she noticed anything.  



jobo said:


> of course there is the possibility that your just not outstanding,



I had considered that.  There are a number of things that if he said, I would have accepted.  If he would have said that the mistakes I did make were too many, I would have accepted that (because there are a few mistakes I know I made).  If he wasn't happy with the quality of the techniques, I would have accepted that.

But he said I made the wrong techniques or used the wrong footwork in a bunch of places that I know I didn't.



Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, Instructors are human-  and make mistakes.   You need to accept that unless you think it is something else.  If video taping tests are allowed you may want try that in the future.. Then if such issues arise you can review the test.    I recall an instructor telling me I made XXX mistake in pattern YYYY. I said "Yes Sir, I will make certain to correct that." Later, after I thought bout it I realized I didn't do pattern YYY for the test.   Like Jobo said, you know what they call the Med Student who barely passes his licensing boards?  - "Doctor".



The tough part for me is it wasn't one mistake.  He says I made tons of mistakes throughout the test.  To me, that's not just one mistake.  Maybe it's just one big mistake.  But it's not like he said I made X mistake on Y pattern.  It's that I made ABCD...L mistakes on OPQ...V patterns.


----------



## jobo (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> There was one other judge.  She is a step below me (2 steps below me now) and she didn't have my paper.
> 
> Her comments to me at the end of the test were something like: "You should compete more, because you'd win a lot of gold medals.  Your power, stamina, etc. were amazing.  It's inspiring to watch you test."  She didn't say anything about me cleaning up mistakes.  I'm going to message her later today and see if she noticed anything.
> 
> ...


well thats his opinion  , accept it and move on, there is noway you can prove him wrong ir get him to change his mind

i cerraibly would give him the oppertunuty to ve wrobg again by retesting  abd tou passed anyway so whats the point, it still wont prove he was wrong


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

jobo said:


> well thats his opinion  , accept it and move on, there is noway you can prove him wrong ir get him to change his mind
> 
> i cerraibly would give him the oppertunuty to ve wrobg again by retesting  abd tou passed anyway so whats the point, it still wont prove he was wrong



I kind of see that if I retest I'm admitting I made those mistakes.

The other guy who tested with me suggested I do private tests from now on, so he doesn't see anyone else make a mistake and attribute it to me as well.  I actually think that may have happened, because I do believe this other guy made the mistakes that my Master said I make.  I know he was getting called to switch feet or to do something again because he missed something.  I know he struggles with some of the things my Master said I did wrong.


----------



## jobo (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> I kind of see that if I retest I'm admitting I made those mistakes.
> 
> The other guy who tested with me suggested I do private tests from now on, so he doesn't see anyone else make a mistake and attribute it to me as well.  I actually think that may have happened, because I do believe this other guy made the mistakes that my Master said I make.  I know he was getting called to switch feet or to do something again because he missed something.  I know he struggles with some of the things my Master said I did wrong.


he is not your master, coz your not his servant, your a paying customer who has got bad service, that would make me cross, not that he was wrong  , that happens ,so much as i was paying him  to be wrong

he had one job!


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 13, 2020)

Sounds to me like you’ve got some issues to work out between yourself and your teacher and your position and membership with the school.

Take a step back for a moment and look at some of the things you’ve written here.  How would you expect your teacher might react, if he read through this thread?  You have heavily criticized his judgement and have gone so far as to say that you really aren’t sure if you respect him anymore.

You are airing quite a bit of laundry here.  Perhaps this isn’t the place for that.  If he found and read this thread, this decision just might be made for you.  If I had a student going online and talking about my poor judgement and how he doesn’t respect me, that would be the end of it.  I cannot imagine a teacher wanting to keep a student who has made it public that there is no respect.  

I really do not understand your gripe at all.   You passed your test and got your rank.  But you didn’t pass high enough for your ego to accept.  You got a B but you wanted an A++.  Nobody else will ever even think to ask about these kinds of details.  If you open your own school someday, nobody will care what your passing grade was on your third Dan test.  I think you’ve got a warped perception of rank.  Maybe that’s because of how your school does things, or maybe that’s just your perceptions.  I just don’t get it.

So now you are thinking of sticking around to get your fourth, so you have a credential to teach.  But you don’t respect your teacher and you aren’t happy there.  You’ve got to take a hard look at your situation and make some decisions.  And I think you need to be really careful about airing your dirty laundry in the public forums where people you might not want to see it, might see it.


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Sounds to me like you’ve got some issues to work out between yourself and your teacher and your position and membership with the school.
> 
> Take a step back for a moment and look at some of the things you’ve written here.  How would you expect your teacher might react, if he read through this thread?  You have heavily criticized his judgement and have gone so far as to say that you really aren’t sure if you respect him anymore.
> 
> ...



I've criticized his curriculum plenty on here and on reddit and he hasn't said anything.  I'm not worried about him seeing this.  It is a public forum, but I also refrain from posting personal information.  That's one reason I wish to remain mostly anonymous here.

One thing I've thought as a result of this is that if I do continue and go on to open my own school, I would videotape every test. That way, if anyone complains, we can look at it together. 

There have been other tests in the past where I've been upset at the grade other students got.  For example, there was one test where all of the purple belts did a great job, but he didn't give a single one of them outstanding.  I remember being shocked, because I had given my students all A's.

I'm not upset at the grade. I'm upset at the reason why. He is saying I made tons of mistakes, when I know I didn't.  That is what I take issue with.  One or two...okay, maybe he messed up a bit.  But he listed over a dozen things I'm sure I didn't do.  That's what's frustrating.  

I can't get better at not making mistakes that I didn't make in the first place.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2020)

jobo said:


> a pass is a pass, take it and move on.
> 
> if you thibk he is an idiot or pickibg on you, dont give him anymore money, certainly not for a restest, thats just a silly thing to do and if you were going to quit anyway, say stick it up your %$%$ and quit now.
> 
> ...


I have agree with you and Hanzou twice in the same month.   I'm going to get my head examined lol.  But I'm with you on the pass thing.  A pass is a pass.  As someone who trains because it's something I like to do,  I could fail every test and it wouldn't change my enjoyment of training.   Sort of like people who draw and paint as a hobby.  They may not be the greatest but it's what they like to do.  I almost fogot this, when I went through my drama.

The big question probably shouldn't be "Do I deserve an outstanding grade"  but Who am I training for?  Me or the grade?  In a world where belts are handed out like candy,  A Pass instead of an outstanding sounds good to me.  If I had a gave a grade rank of "outstanding" then I would want that to be something not so easy to obtained.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> I've criticized his curriculum plenty on here and on reddit and he hasn't said anything.  I'm not worried about him seeing this.  It is a public forum, but I also refrain from posting personal information.  That's one reason I wish to remain mostly anonymous here.
> 
> One thing I've thought as a result of this is that if I do continue and go on to open my own school, I would videotape every test. That way, if anyone complains, we can look at it together.
> 
> ...


As I said, you've got some issues to work out and decisions to make.  One way or the other, this is a poisoned relationship.

You are sure you didn't make mistakes.  He says you did.  Either he knows better and you accept his judgement as your teacher, or you decide he is wrong and you don't respect him and you leave his school.  But my opinion, I really find this dirty laundry to be distasteful.  I think you are being disrespectful by talking about this while you are still his student.  And I gotta be honest, you are being pretty self-righteous about this, it even smacks of arrogance.  It is off-putting.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Oct 13, 2020)

Skribs, what is your plan for the future? You said you want to obtain your 4th dan and then open a school, right? Are you planning to open a school competing with your current school?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I have agree with you and Hanzou twice in the same month.   I'm going to get my head examined lol.  But I'm with you on the pass thing.  A pass is a pass.  As someone who trains because it's something I like to do,  I could fail every test and it wouldn't change my enjoyment of training.   Sort of like people who draw and paint as a hobby.  They may not be the greatest but it's what they like to do.  I almost fogot this, when I went through my drama.
> 
> The big question probably shouldn't be "Do I deserve an outstanding grade"  but Who am I training for?  Me or the grade?  In a world where belts are handed out like candy,  A Pass instead of an outstanding sounds good to me.  If I had a gave a grade rank of "outstanding" then I would want that to be something not so easy to obtained.



Like I said, it's not about the grade itself, but about why I got it.  He says I did things that I know I didn't do.



Flying Crane said:


> As I said, you've got some issues to work out and decisions to make.  One way or the other, this is a poisoned relationship.
> 
> You are sure you didn't make mistakes.  He says you did.  Either he knows better and you accept his judgement as your teacher, or you decide he is wrong and you don't respect him and you leave his school.  But my opinion, I really find this dirty laundry to be distasteful.  I think you are being disrespectful by talking about this while you are still his student.  And I gotta be honest, you are being pretty self-righteous about this, it even smacks of arrogance.  It is off-putting.



Then don't taste this laundry.  You don't have to stay in this thread. I'm trying to figure out what I want to do, so I came here both to vent and to see what others have to say.  The other option is I could just keep it to myself and make a less informed decision.  I didn't join this community to NOT seek advice.

I'm being self-righteous because I am confident that I am right.  I didn't get to where I am by being mediocre.  Nor by having poor attention to detail or self-evaluation.  I constantly criticize my own technique to be the best that I can be.  And everyone else says I pretty much killed it at the test.  



Jaeimseu said:


> Skribs, what is your plan for the future? You said you want to obtain your 4th dan and then open a school, right? Are you planning to open a school competing with your current school?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If I stay in the area, I would transfer to a different art, and then maybe come back to TKD later.  This would give me the option to open a new school.  But I'm thinking about moving (for other reasons) so I wouldn't be remotely close to where we are now.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> If you open your own school someday, nobody will care what your passing grade was on your third Dan test.


 lol  They definitely won't care about that with me.  lol.  When I was teaching, new students only wanted to know 3 things. 
1. Were they going to get good training. Cardio and strength
2. Did I seem knowledgeable. (usually determined through a visit)
3. Can I use what I was teaching and could I teach them how to use it.

The most I've ever had ask about my knowledge was "How long have you been doing Kung Fu"  "When was the last time I taught Kung Fu" (most recent question).  I'm pretty sure it's different with belted systems where many people go after the prize of having a high ranking belt.  But I think for most people  the belt system has been too abused like when you see a 12 year old with a black belt.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> Like I said, it's not about the grade itself, but about why I got it. He says I did things that I know I didn't do.


The only thing about that is that sometimes video shows us things that we didn't realize that we are doing.  There have been many times where I thought I was in a low horse stance only to look at the video and to be surprised at how high I was in the stance.

This is one of the things I really enjoy about using videos instead of mirrors. Videos give you opportunities to really see what you are doing vs feeling what you are doing.  Now videos are a part of my personal training.   Not saying this is why your teacher graded you as he did.  I'm just trying to add some calming perspective.   Sometimes our first reaction is bigger than what it needs to be.  At least I know this is the case with me sometimes.


----------



## Steve (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> If it was just that he wanted me to do better, I'd just take the pass and move on.  If it was one or two things, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.  But I have no idea why he says I made all of those mistakes, when I know I didn't.  The only possible reasons I can find are:
> 
> He's lying to try and teach me a lesson
> He wasn't paying attention to me and just assumed I made a mistake
> ...


Option 4:  You made the mistakes.  You don't think you did, clearly.  But he seems to think so.


----------



## Steve (Oct 13, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Do. MMA.


You'd get some objective feedback on mistakes pretty fast.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 13, 2020)

Sounds to me your instructor is either getting senile or he has some need to exert his authority and control over you.  If he is trying to teach you a lesson in humility, fabricating mistakes is definitely not the way to do it.  Is this typical behavior for him?  You said he's OK 95% of the time,  but...?  Have other students had the same experience during a test?

Want to stay with him till 4th dan and move on?  How long will that take in your system - 2,3,4 years?  Can you continue there and just enjoy working out, putting this experience behind you?  Or will it eat away at you and destroy your love of the art, itself?  These are all things you control. 

Keep it all in perspective.  Do what's best for you, make your decision and go with it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2020)

Steve said:


> You'd get some objective feedback on mistakes pretty fast.


Can't help but to think about sparring.  Get something wrong, make a mistke,  yep.  instant feedback.  Don't think it was a mistake, then try it again. If the same thing happens, then mistake verified. lol

After awhile you'll stop questioning mistakes and the verification process will get shorter.


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> lol  They definitely won't care about that with me.  lol.  When I was teaching, new students only wanted to know 3 things.
> 1. Were they going to get good training. Cardio and strength
> 2. Did I seem knowledgeable. (usually determined through a visit)
> 3. Can I use what I was teaching and could I teach them how to use it.
> ...



In order to open a school in my organization, you have to have a 4th Dan and then take a Master certification course.  If I don't have that, I can't open up with my organization, and then I lose  a lot of the credibility within my art.



JowGaWolf said:


> The only thing about that is that sometimes video shows us things that we didn't realize that we are doing.  There have been many times where I thought I was in a low horse stance only to look at the video and to be surprised at how high I was in the stance.
> 
> This is one of the things I really enjoy about using videos instead of mirrors. Videos give you opportunities to really see what you are doing vs feeling what you are doing.  Now videos are a part of my personal training.   Not saying this is why your teacher graded you as he did.  I'm just trying to add some calming perspective.   Sometimes our first reaction is bigger than what it needs to be.  At least I know this is the case with me sometimes.



That's the thing.  It's not "your stances weren't good enough" or something like that.  It was binary yes-or-no things: did I do the right technique or a different technique?  Did I step with the correct foot?



Steve said:


> You'd get some objective feedback on mistakes pretty fast.



Yes and no.  As far as I know, there is no rote memorized forms or combinations in MMA.  I'd essentially bypass this entire issue if I were training an art that didn't have kata or rote memorized combinations on the test.



isshinryuronin said:


> Sounds to me your instructor is either getting senile or he has some need to exert his authority and control over you.  If he is trying to teach you a lesson in humility, fabricating mistakes is definitely not the way to do it.  Is this typical behavior for him?  You said he's OK 95% of the time,  but...?  Have other students had the same experience during a test?
> 
> Want to stay with him till 4th dan and move on?  How long will that take in your system - 2,3,4 years?  Can you continue there and just enjoy working out, putting this experience behind you?  Or will it eat away at you and destroy your love of the art, itself?  These are all things you control.
> 
> Keep it all in perspective.  Do what's best for you, make your decision and go with it.



I'll be eligible to test for 4th Dan by next December.  So a little over a year left.  (It takes 3 years minimum, I'm more than 2 years in, but we only do Dan tests in June and December).  

He has a few senior moments, but most of them are harmless.  For example, he'll tell us to do a technique one way one day, and then tell us another way the next.  It usually comes across as "I've told you X", when he's been telling us "Y" for months.  For example, one of our hand grabs changes every once in a while whether it ends in a punch or a break.  He had the incorrect version of a technique for the 3rd Dan form, which he recently corrected.  However, the other day in class, he did his old version.  Little things like that.  It's frustrating in the moment, but hard to take personally.

But every 6 months or so, he does something to assert his power over me.  I noticed it usually followed someone asking me for advice.  Although that didn't happen this time.  It took me by shock, because I'd thought our relationship was getting better.  He's been very positive about my contributions during COVID.  He even had me conduct one of the tests last week.  Then he hits me with this.  

He was overly critical of me at the end of the test.  I just assumed he was giving me a hard time, or that he expected me not to even make the mistakes I recognized.  I don't know what he saw.  But that's the only thing that makes sense is that he's fabricating these to try to push me to work harder or be more humble.  If anything, it's having the opposite effect.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> In order to open a school in my organization, you have to have a 4th Dan and then take a Master certification course. If I don't have that, I can't open up with my organization, and then I lose a lot of the credibility within my art.


  That's only if you want to be recognized by your organization right?  The one that you are thinking about quitting to do bjj?


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's only if you want to be recognized by your organization right?  The one that you are thinking about quitting to do bjj?


Thinking about.  Options are nice to have.


----------



## Ivan (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> He's lying to try and teach me a lesson
> He wasn't paying attention to me and just assumed I made a mistake
> He attributed the mistakes the others in the test made to me




You need to remember that, in the end, it doesn't matter what he *thinks*. What matters is what you *know*. I know the pain of being a perfectionist, but you should strive to reach the point where you focus on what you think you could work on, improve on, and what you think you did well. Because in the end your path is yours to walk alone; it's fine to get input from others, but whether the input is useful or not is ultimately up to you.

In your shoes, I would take the pass, and if you feel it's not for you anymore, find something more fulfilling. I would suggest you learn to let go, or things like this will eat away from the inside. Good luck.


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

I spoke with the other judge. She did bring up one thing he corrected me on for my Pyongwon form.  I do remember that. 

However, I'm going to show my arrogance again: I think his correction was wrong. This is based on having watched dozens of videos of this form being done the way I was doing it, and not the way he wants it done.


----------



## wab25 (Oct 13, 2020)

First off, you have to realize that people are not perfect and as soon as you involve people, you will have issues. A key is to figure out why you are doing what you are doing. Then decide if its worth it or not. Is it worth it to you, to have to deal with people? You can go to another organization... but it will also have people... so you don't gain much.

For my jujitsu organization, to test for shodan, you need to to compete in at least one kata competition. When I was getting ready to test, I found a kata contest and got a partner. (in jujitsu kata, there are two people doing the kata, you compete as teams...) We trained the kata for 3-4 months. We learned a ton more about the kata, the techniques, the details... all kinds of stuff. We peaked during the contest... our best ever run through the 8 kata and the combative sequence, happened during the contest and was the run that got scored. The people watching, cheered, we could hear them saying that was it, no way to top that. Even when the other teams went, you could hear people talking about how they did not come close to ours, some people thought we should be judged against the black belts, as it wasn't fair to judge the other brown belts against us. When the results came out, we got 3rd. The crowd gasped. The 2nd and 1st place teams apologized because they thought we had won. We had a ton of people come up and tell us that we should have won. Two of the people that came up and told us that, were two of the three judges, that had scored the brown belt contest. I asked the second one "well, then why did we get 3rd? You of all people could have changed it, if you thought we should have won." His answer was: "You went first, so we had to give you a middle score, so people could possibly score higher as the competitors went through." At that moment, I was ticked. First, there is no requirement to score the first competitor as medium and second, even if you do, you don't score people higher if they didn't do as well. My partner reminded me that we came to compete and satisfy a requirement to test... not to win. Additionally, we did our best, when it counted. It took me a while to accept that. But, I did learn from it. (even though the judges were not trying to teach me anything)

In my current situation, I am still shodan after 15 years of constant training, as a shodan. In order to test for nidan, I have to attend a certain number of the organizations events and compete in an organization competition, for 2 consecutive years. The nearest dojo to me in our organization is 600 miles away. I don't have the time or money, to fly or drive all over the US chasing these events, in order to meet requirements to test. The organization asked me to start my school to expand their organization into a new area for them to grow. Most other dojos are close enough to other dojos, that students take a hour and a half drive, do their event and go home. That nearest dojo to me, 600 miles away, has 5-6 instructors and the head instructor is a board member of the organization. When his students need events or competitions... they pick 3 instructors to judge, give the class 20 minutes to practice their kata and then hold their own competition and retro actively add it to the organizations calendar. My school is too small, with only one black belt (me), so their is no way I could hold a sanctioned event, unless I can convince 4 other black belts to make at least a 600 mile one way trip, which they are not willing to do.

My solution? I am happy with shodan. There is no reason to stop training and in fact no reason to stop progressing in my own art. The color of your belt has little to do with the progress in your art. When I do get out to organization events, and meet high ranking people (4, 5, 6+ ranked people) out on the mat, they assume I am sandan or at least a nidan getting ready for the sandan test. When I train in other arts, close to home... those people think I am sandan or yodan. They are very surprised to find out I am shodan. I put on a seminar on hip throws and invited the Aikido school we rent the dojo from. They invited their sister schools, a bunch of Judo guys from a local Judo school showed up, some Daito Ryu students showed, as did Karate and Kendo students... all showed up because their instructors had seen me doing demos, heard about the seminar and sent their students and many showed up themselves. I am not trying to toot my own horn here... but trying to illustrate that you can progress without needing rank... and people will recognize it when they see it. (to be fair, I also attend as many of their events as I can as well... I have to learn somewhere)

The thing is, I have found my reason for training. And I have found my way to progress. For me, it takes a lot of time and a lot of study... as I don't have a teacher on the mat to tell me how to fix it or if this is right or wrong. Would I be able to progress faster if I were closer to other dojos and could make events more easily? Well... I could get the ranks and the belts certainly... but, I am not so sure about the real progress. It may be, that having to find my own way, in the long run, is helping me learn faster... or not. Either way, I am learning and training... thats all I need. You will have to reach your own conclusions about your training... but you can't escape people... they will always be there. Thats why it is important to have your own reasons, your own goals and to be happy with those... because people are going to ruin it, its what we do.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> Thinking about.  Options are nice to have.


Well if you quit, would it prevent you from being able to open your own school?  I mean if that's what you are interested in.   Some people like to just train and not teach


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

wab25 said:


> First off, you have to realize that people are not perfect and as soon as you involve people, you will have issues. A key is to figure out why you are doing what you are doing. Then decide if its worth it or not. Is it worth it to you, to have to deal with people? You can go to another organization... but it will also have people... so you don't gain much.
> 
> For my jujitsu organization, to test for shodan, you need to to compete in at least one kata competition. When I was getting ready to test, I found a kata contest and got a partner. (in jujitsu kata, there are two people doing the kata, you compete as teams...) We trained the kata for 3-4 months. We learned a ton more about the kata, the techniques, the details... all kinds of stuff. We peaked during the contest... our best ever run through the 8 kata and the combative sequence, happened during the contest and was the run that got scored. The people watching, cheered, we could hear them saying that was it, no way to top that. Even when the other teams went, you could hear people talking about how they did not come close to ours, some people thought we should be judged against the black belts, as it wasn't fair to judge the other brown belts against us. When the results came out, we got 3rd. The crowd gasped. The 2nd and 1st place teams apologized because they thought we had won. We had a ton of people come up and tell us that we should have won. Two of the people that came up and told us that, were two of the three judges, that had scored the brown belt contest. I asked the second one "well, then why did we get 3rd? You of all people could have changed it, if you thought we should have won." His answer was: "You went first, so we had to give you a middle score, so people could possibly score higher as the competitors went through." At that moment, I was ticked. First, there is no requirement to score the first competitor as medium and second, even if you do, you don't score people higher if they didn't do as well. My partner reminded me that we came to compete and satisfy a requirement to test... not to win. Additionally, we did our best, when it counted. It took me a while to accept that. But, I did learn from it. (even though the judges were not trying to teach me anything)
> 
> ...



We've had similarly bad experiences with competition in my art.  When I was a kid, my Mom sparred as a low colored belt against a black belt who wore low colored belts to tournaments so she could get medals. Used illegal kicks and injured my Mom and another woman.

In order to teach on my own in my organization, I need 4th Dan.  That's where my goal is right now (unless I do quit).


----------



## wab25 (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> In order to teach on my own in my organization, I need 4th Dan. That's where my goal is right now (unless I do quit).


Then suck it up, take the pass and get your 4th dan. Don't let this stand in your way... in fact its not standing in your way. Just move on.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> This is based on having watched dozens of videos of this form being done the way I was doing it, and not the way he wants it done.


I'm confused now.   Were you doing the form the way he wants it to be done or the way that the organization does it?


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Then suck it up, take the pass and get your 4th dan. Don't let this stand in your way... in fact its not standing in your way. Just move on.


It might be. He said he almost failed us.


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm confused now.   Were you doing the form the way he wants it to be done or the way that the organization does it?



I did it the way the organization does it, not how he wants it done.  Just for one move. The two align on the rest of the form.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 13, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Either way, I am learning and training... thats all I need.



This merits repetition.  I wish more people could embrace this attitude.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> Then don't taste this laundry.  You don't have to stay in this thread. I'm trying to figure out what I want to do, so I came here both to vent and to see what others have to say.  The other option is I could just keep it to myself and make a less informed decision.  I didn't join this community to NOT seek advice.
> 
> I'm being self-righteous because I am confident that I am right.  I didn't get to where I am by being mediocre.  Nor by having poor attention to detail or self-evaluation.  I constantly criticize my own technique to be the best that I can be.  And everyone else says I pretty much killed it at the test.



To be honest, it isn't really about what I think of it.  I'm trying to give you a bit of gentle advice on how to behave, which it is apparent that you need.  You aren't doing yourself any favors.  This is your reputation that you are risking, by airing the dirty laundry.  Nobody else here actually cares about what the outcome is, because they have no vested interest in it.  It's just you.  But your reputation goes beyond that.  You mentioned you may train BJJ instead.  OK, unless you walk into a BJJ school and it turns out the instructor happened to read this thread and he is able to piece things together and realizes you are the one who was doing all this posting.  And he decides, nah, you are likely more trouble than you are worth, and he won't let you into his school.

These things can happen.


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> To be honest, it isn't really about what I think of it.  I'm trying to give you a bit of gentle advice on how to behave, which it is apparent that you need.  You aren't doing yourself any favors.  This is your reputation that you are risking, by airing the dirty laundry.  Nobody else here actually cares about what the outcome is, because they have no vested interest in it.  It's just you.  But your reputation goes beyond that.  You mentioned you may train BJJ instead.  OK, unless you walk into a BJJ school and it turns out the instructor happened to read this thread and he is able to piece things together and realizes you are the one who was doing all this posting.  And he decides, nah, you are likely more trouble than you are worth, and he won't let you into his school.
> 
> These things can happen.



I stand by what I say.  I'm confident that I didn't make the mistakes I'm being told I did.  I'm not going to "admit" that I made them so others will think I'm humble.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> I did it the way the organization does it, not how he wants it done.  Just for one move. The two align on the rest of the form.


One of my seniors has a favorite saying "I have to be good enough to do a technique however my instructor wants me to do it. "   Think about that.


----------



## KOKarate (Oct 13, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> To be honest, it isn't really about what I think of it.  I'm trying to give you a bit of gentle advice on how to behave, which it is apparent that you need.  You aren't doing yourself any favors.  This is your reputation that you are risking, by airing the dirty laundry.  Nobody else here actually cares about what the outcome is, because they have no vested interest in it.  It's just you.  But your reputation goes beyond that.  You mentioned you may train BJJ instead.  OK, unless you walk into a BJJ school and it turns out the instructor happened to read this thread and he is able to piece things together and realizes you are the one who was doing all this posting.  And he decides, nah, you are likely more trouble than you are worth, and he won't let you into his school.
> 
> These things can happen.


Yep a lot of martial arts community in a certain area even in different styles mostly know each other


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> Yep a lot of martial arts community in a certain area even in different styles mostly know each other



My school has very little contact with other schools.


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> One of my seniors has a favorite saying "I have to be good enough to do a technique however my instructor wants me to do it. "   Think about that.



"I have to be good enough to do a technique however my instructor wants it this week," is more accurate for some things.

The double outside block in Pyongwon in the videos is way off to the side.  He's been having us do it just outside in practice (not way outside).  He "corrected" us to do it straight in front on the test.

If it was that one thing, it wouldn't have probably affected my grade much.  But on top of everything else...


----------



## Steve (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> Thinking about.  Options are nice to have.





Flying Crane said:


> To be honest, it isn't really about what I think of it.  I'm trying to give you a bit of gentle advice on how to behave, which it is apparent that you need.  You aren't doing yourself any favors.  This is your reputation that you are risking, by airing the dirty laundry.  Nobody else here actually cares about what the outcome is, because they have no vested interest in it.  It's just you.  But your reputation goes beyond that.  You mentioned you may train BJJ instead.  OK, unless you walk into a BJJ school and it turns out the instructor happened to read this thread and he is able to piece things together and realizes you are the one who was doing all this posting.  And he decides, nah, you are likely more trouble than you are worth, and he won't let you into his school.
> 
> These things can happen.


Bjj, or any style like it, are pretty hard to do with this attitude.  You can't fake it, and as drop bear said earlier, you will get a lot of feedback.  To be frank, guys like skribs go one of two ways. They either get humble really fast or they quit really fast.


----------



## Steve (Oct 13, 2020)

@skribs, if you do decide to check out BJJ, there are several good schools in the area.  Do your homework though.  There is one school in that area that isn't very well regarded.


----------



## KOKarate (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> There was one other judge.  She is a step below me (2 steps below me now) and she didn't have my paper.
> 
> Her comments to me at the end of the test were something like: "You should compete more, because you'd win a lot of gold medals.  Your power, stamina, etc. were amazing.  It's inspiring to watch you test."  She didn't say anything about me cleaning up mistakes.  I'm going to message her later today and see if she noticed anything.
> 
> ...


Wait....Why is there someone on the panel judging who’s LOWER than you....that literally makes 0 sense....So you’re happy to take praise off a lower rank but can’t accept criticisms  off a higher one....


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> Wait....Why is there someone on the panel judging who’s LOWER than you....that literally makes 0 sense....So you’re happy to take praise off a lower rank but can’t accept criticisms  off a higher one....


She was judging the other testers who are lower than her.

I took her comments with a grain of salt.  But that seemed to be the reaction of everyone. They were surprised how harsh he was on me during closing comments, surprised that I didn't get Outstanding, and surprised that he said I made so many mistakes.


----------



## KOKarate (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> She was judging the other testers who are lower than her.
> 
> I took her comments with a grain of salt.  But that seemed to be the reaction of everyone. They were surprised how harsh he was on me during closing comments, surprised that I didn't get Outstanding, and surprised that he said I made so many mistakes.


Well if you’re going for a 4th then do it should be harsh testing. It’s not like it’s the first belt where you can let things slide


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> Well if you’re going for a 4th then do it should be harsh testing. It’s not like it’s the first belt where you can let things slide



And if I made those mistakes, then fine.  I know I didn't.  I've said why a few times in this thread. There are some things he said I did that I was checking for every time and know I didn't do.  There are things he said I did that would have resulted in cascade errors that didn't happen.  

It's like if I said 2+2=4, and he said I'm wrong because I said it equals 6, and it doesn't, it equals 4.

What does that teach me? What am I supposed to learn from that? I already know the answer is 4.  That's what I said.


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

Steve said:


> Bjj, or any style like it, are pretty hard to do with this attitude.  You can't fake it, and as drop bear said earlier, you will get a lot of feedback.  To be frank, guys like skribs go one of two ways. They either get humble really fast or they quit really fast.



You would be surprised how humble I can be, when the situation warrants it.  There are times to be assertive, too.  In class, I'm humble.  I still work tirelessly on my basics.

In BJJ, I'd know if I made a mistake, because I'd get tapped.  There's concrete, immediate feedback.  It's something I can immediately learn from.

If I were to go to a BJJ school and not get tapped a single time, and then the owner were to say "we tapped you like 30 times in 5 minutes", I'd call BS.  Somehow I don't think that will happen (either the me not getting tapped, or them saying they did if they didn't).

Like I said, I was open to critiques of things I can improve on.  I'm not open to the outright falsehoods of things I know I didn't do.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> I stand by what I say.  I'm confident that I didn't make the mistakes I'm being told I did.  I'm not going to "admit" that I made them so others will think I'm humble.


Then to yourself, don’t admit it.  But don’t air the disrespect on the internet.  It’s really bad form and you may end up burning bridges before you even know they exist.  Jeezuz man, grow the f- up!


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Then to yourself, don’t admit it.  But don’t air the disrespect on the internet.  It’s really bad form and you may end up burning bridges before you even know they exist.  Jeezuz man, grow the f- up!



Good. Then I don't have to waste my time trying to cross that bridge.


----------



## Steve (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> You would be surprised how humble I can be, when the situation warrants it.


dude.


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

Steve said:


> dude.


There's a difference between being humble, and letting people walk all over you.


----------



## Steve (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> There's a difference between being humble, and letting people walk all over you.


I agree that they have nothing to do with each other.  I think it would be really good for you to give it a shot.  What I don't know is whether your ego will allow you to be really bad at something for a really long time, with constant physical reminders of how bad you are.   As I said before, some people are better for it.  Most can't take it and quit, often telling anyone who will listen that they could have done it but for this or that.

My impression of you is that you spend a lot of time telling yourself how great you are at things.  Like how great you are at being humble.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> There's a difference between being humble, and letting people walk all over you.


Who walked all over you?  You passed the damn test and got your belt!  Is that lost on you?  So you got a C and you wanted an AA++.  So what?  Nobody cares but you.  It is meaningless.  Maybe you aren’t as good as you think you are.  I’ll say this much:  you’ve got a really f-ed up attitude.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Oct 13, 2020)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

Steve said:


> I agree that they have nothing to do with each other.  I think it would be really good for you to give it a shot.  What I don't know is whether your ego will allow you to be really bad at something for a really long time, with constant physical reminders of how bad you are.   As I said before, some people are better for it.  Most can't take it and quit, often telling anyone who will listen that they could have done it but for this or that.
> 
> My impression of you is that you spend a lot of time telling yourself how great you are at things.  Like how great you are at being humble.



That's because my Taekwondo curriculum is something I'm great at.  I've trained hadd to get there.  I rank myself as mediocre at Hapkido, mediocre at TKD sparring, and horrible at guitar. I was so bad at riding a motorcycle I gave up halfway through the class.  There are things I'm bad at. This isn't one.



Flying Crane said:


> Who walked all over you?  You passed the damn test and got your belt!  Is that lost on you?  So you got a C and you wanted an AA++.  So what?  Nobody cares but you.  It is meaningless.  Maybe you aren’t as good as you think you are.  I’ll say this much:  you’ve got a really f-ed up attitude.



He said he wanted to fail me, but didn't because he didn't want to waste time with retesting. So I'm upset because if this happens again, I'll fail. And since it isn't my fault (if he'sseeing mistakes I didn't make), there's nothing I can do to prevent it.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 13, 2020)

wab25 said:


> My solution? I am happy with shodan. There is no reason to stop training and in fact no reason to stop progressing


Good that you are at peace with your situation.  The only problem is how you are learning more?  Are there skills and knowledge that are taught only after 2nd or 3rd dan in your system?  Or have you found a way to train with more senior people that will teach more advanced material with you?

Self training takes know how and a lot of dedication, as well as being able to stay objective when self evaluating.  Seems like you are doing well on all fronts.  Sooner or later, someone well above you in rank will take notice and recognize your achievements in an official manner.

You can also just promote yourself to 7th degree.  For $50 I can send you a nice certificate, a secret decoder ring and some gold stripes to dress up your belt to prove how awesome you are .


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> At my school, you can get 3 possible outcomes on your tests: re-testing, pass, or outstanding.  I have gotten all Outstanding results up until now.  Every colored belt test, every dan test, and every intermediate test between dan grades.  (At my school we have "gups" between the Dans, think of it like Black Belt v1.2 or v3.1).
> 
> I was testing for 3rd Dan, 3rd Gup (v3.3).  I got "Pass."  Not Outstanding.
> 
> ...


Possibility 3... you made more errors than you are aware of.  That couldn't be, could it?

If this is enough to make you quit... than quit complaining and quit.   

The worst thing my instructor can do is stop correcting me.  If he does, it doesn't mean I have nothing more to learn... it means I am no longer worth correcting.


----------



## wab25 (Oct 13, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Good that you are at peace with your situation. The only problem is how you are learning more? Are there skills and knowledge that are taught only after 2nd or 3rd dan in your system? Or have you found a way to train with more senior people that will teach more advanced material with you?


Excellent questions. In our system, the last test for new content comes at 4th dan. I have been taught all the techniques I need for 2nd dan and am ready to test... 3rd and 4th, not so much. 

So, how am I learning more? First off, there is a difference between memorizing a kata and studying a kata. So, I have been putting a ton of time into the techniques I know and have been doing "well" for years... and refining and understanding them more. I also try putting them into different combinations and into different situations. I fail a lot, I explore a lot and I learn things as I go. 

Further, martial arts is bigger than any one singular art. However, most arts talk about the same ideas and same principles. The different arts just use different vocabulary to do so. So, I cross train. I am working on Shotokan Karate, Aikido, and Daito Ryu. I spent a few years (2-3) studying bjj and mma. While in Karate class... I do Karate. When I leave, I take what I learned in Karate and see where it directly fits in Danzan Ryu. Then I look at the principles being taught in the movements and kata and then compare and add to the Danzan Ryu version of those same principles. I then look at what principles Karate teaches when presenting things in certain situations and compare what Danzan Ryu presents in similar situations. I add the bits from Karate to Danzan Ryu and the bits from Danzan Ryu to Karate. When I go show off my new found knowledge and wisdom to the Danzan Ryu guys... they say "Glad you finally figured that out, we have been telling you that for years." Funny thing is, I get the same response from the Karate guys as well. Repeat with the other arts I have and am cross training with. The key here is: "When in Karate, do Kararte." The mixing of arts happens on the students time, not during class.



isshinryuronin said:


> Self training takes know how and a lot of dedication, as well as being able to stay objective when self evaluating.


I try.


----------



## skribs (Oct 13, 2020)

jks9199 said:


> Possibility 3... you made more errors than you are aware of. That couldn't be, could it?



It's possible I made more than I'm aware of.  Most of the ones he told me aren't possible as far as I can tell.


----------



## EdwardA (Oct 13, 2020)

I don't know.  We only had white sash, which took a few months to get.  Black sash, that took years, and Red sash that you had to go to Hong Kong to test for.

It's a question of motivation vs keeping students I think, but I'm guessing.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 14, 2020)

skribs said:


> If it was just that he wanted me to do better, I'd just take the pass and move on. If it was one or two things, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. But I have no idea why he says I made all of those mistakes, when I know I didn't. The only possible reasons I can find are:
> 
> He's lying to try and teach me a lesson
> He wasn't paying attention to me and just assumed I made a mistake
> ...


I read through the entire thread hoping to glean everything I could before responding. So to start, I am going to say this thread has started from a very poor position.



skribs said:


> Less and less lately. He's good about 95% of the time, but every once in a while he does something that really gets me ready to leave.


We have had a lot of back and forth. That is a good thing. You use this medium to air things out. Not explicitly a bad thing. Bashing your instructor or program when it is conditional (like you have are are doing right now) is Always a bad thing.



skribs said:


> At this point, for my next belt degree. That will give me the rank required to get my Master Certification, at which point I can open my own school and teach things my way.


You have been thorough and forthright about your plan. However, this is about as poor a major reason for wanting to advance as I can think of. Not at all what learning MA's is about. I get it. You like teaching and want to open a school. We cannot count the people who have been there. It could be the degree of freedom you feel on a forum to express candor and that we cannot really gauge your feelings or intent because we are not having a face to face. 



skribs said:


> I don't accept his critiques, because I'm sure I didn't make the mistakes he said I made. He gave me several concrete examples of things I know I never did. Maybe I misremember one or two of them. I know I wasn't that oblivious. Maybe I made one or two mistakes. But I don't remember him correcting me, and on a few of them, I remember being proud that I *didn't* mess them up.
> 
> I know I made mistakes. I know there's things I can improve on. If those were the reasons I didn't get Outstanding, then I'm fine with that. I'll just get Pass from here on (because I don't think I could do the entire curriculum perfect with no mistakes). But he listed a *ton* of mistakes I know I didn't make. I don't accept the critique, because I know I didn't do it. I have a pretty good memory, and I know what I did and didn't do.


See, first you say "you Know you did not make the mistake". Then you say "maybe I misremember". 
I hope you hear this loudly. "Pride comes before the fall." You are living this Large. Over and over through this thread you are saying "I know I made mistakes But..." You have never said whether your instructor is Korean or if there are deep ties there. I can tell you Much of what you are describing is Korean teaching 101. I am going to leave that right there for now. 




skribs said:


> In this case, I know I'm right because:
> 
> Some things he said he had to tell me to switch feet because I was on the wrong foot. I know he didn't tell me.
> Some things he said I did wrong and didn't notice. It's possible I made one or two of those mistakes, but not the half-dozen that fall into this category.
> ...


If, if, if, if, if. You are pissed because even the was you were critiqued is not the way You think it should be. C'mon man. Childish. 



skribs said:


> I had considered that. There are a number of things that if he said, I would have accepted. If he would have said that the mistakes I did make were too many, I would have accepted that (because there are a few mistakes I know I made). If he wasn't happy with the quality of the techniques, I would have accepted that.
> 
> But he said I made the wrong techniques or used the wrong footwork in a bunch of places that I know I didn't.


Rehash of above comments. Desperately holding on to a narrative you cannot change and it has pissed you off. It happens to everyone in every walk of life. But this is a very different environment. One where we are supposed to be learning how to HANDLE adversity, regardless of Where or How it comes at use. You are very much on the rear teat right now when it comes to this lesson; and I would say pretty far behind the curve given your station.



skribs said:


> I kind of see that if I retest I'm admitting I made those mistakes.
> 
> The other guy who tested with me suggested I do private tests from now on, so he doesn't see anyone else make a mistake and attribute it to me as well. I actually think that may have happened, because I do believe this other guy made the mistakes that my Master said I make. I know he was getting called to switch feet or to do something again because he missed something. I know he struggles with some of the things my Master said I did wrong.


That just sounds like a rich(er) mans cop out. Private classes I can understand within confines. Private testing, never. I will leave that right there as well. 



skribs said:


> I'm not upset at the grade.


Yea, you are. 



skribs said:


> Then don't taste this laundry. You don't have to stay in this thread. I'm trying to figure out what I want to do, so I came here both to vent and to see what others have to say. The other option is I could just keep it to myself and make a less informed decision. I didn't join this community to NOT seek advice.
> 
> I'm being self-righteous because I am confident that I am right. I didn't get to where I am by being mediocre. Nor by having poor attention to detail or self-evaluation. I constantly criticize my own technique to be the best that I can be. And everyone else says I pretty much killed it at the test.


You can have that response, it is an open forum. But I hope you understand you are getting what you have asked for. 
And yes, damn are you being arrogant. I don't know if I have ever heard someone need confirmation and ingratiation so much before. You seriously need to learn how to self reflect and use my next comment the correct way; Know where your bread is buttered. 



skribs said:


> I'll be eligible to test for 4th Dan by next December. So a little over a year left. (It takes 3 years minimum, I'm more than 2 years in, but we only do Dan tests in June and December).
> 
> He has a few senior moments, but most of them are harmless. For example, he'll tell us to do a technique one way one day, and then tell us another way the next. It usually comes across as "I've told you X", when he's been telling us "Y" for months. For example, one of our hand grabs changes every once in a while whether it ends in a punch or a break. He had the incorrect version of a technique for the 3rd Dan form, which he recently corrected. However, the other day in class, he did his old version. Little things like that. It's frustrating in the moment, but hard to take personally.


That math is way off and that is straight up jump testing. Anyone who does it that way is subject of not being qualified for the next rank. Let me say it the way I heard it. You just tested for 3rd Dan (let's say today). And you just said you will test for 4th Dan in one hear and about 2 months. Do you see what that says and understand there is a bigger picture that is damaging here?
Again, not knowing the instructors background but this is straight up psychological training 101. Slow your roll and catch up. There has been a consistent pattern with you that is compounding. I know you will throw up the 'blank slate' but you are missing a lot right now.   



skribs said:


> "I have to be good enough to do a technique however my instructor wants it this week," is more accurate for some things.
> 
> The double outside block in Pyongwon in the videos is way off to the side. He's been having us do it just outside in practice (not way outside). He "corrected" us to do it straight in front on the test.
> 
> If it was that one thing, it wouldn't have probably affected my grade much. But on top of everything else...


Yes and yes. 
I tried quoting a few other comments but they did not come through and I do not have time to go back. 
You mentioned you have been using video for practice. A good tool if and Only if the video matches up with your instructor. Nothing else really matters at testing time. Why would it? A fair and mature conversation would be to ask your instructor why the difference some time after class. Our GM is very honest about how/why he changes the Taeguek poomsae. Something I appreciate. 
Skribs, you have talked at length about leaving. Honestly, saying it as a threat more than a logical thought process. You finally admitted something in this thread I have suspected for some time. You are in a very, very, closed loop school and if it is not a Tiger Rock school it is using that model. Not a good thing for a number of reasons which I have mentioned several times before. Think of it this way. You are essentially saying you just good enough to pass a test in an environment that uses zero external forces or feedback. So how valuable is that test? The answer is completely up to you. You are the one who has had your testing in fast forward to reach a number. You are the one using external approval as the only measure of success. You are the one who, at the same time, is dissatisfied with your training.  You are the one who, no matter what critique you receive, you cannot or do not use it constructively. 
It is time you do some Major humbling, reflect on where you Really are in Your training and quit looking only for the external feedback you agree with. I was not there but have graded enough testings in our schools, other TKD schools and even other style schools to know I have seen what you experienced. There is more going on than what you think. You want to call that BS and keep trying to apply only the tangible logic you understand, so be it. But you really need to press the pause button before it just comes crashing down on you. You are headed for a bad breakup with your school and instructor. A good/bad thing? With very, very few exception a Bad thing. And I have heard enough evidence to believe the exceptions do not exist. 
I am sure this post is ripe with typo's. My apologies.


----------



## skribs (Oct 14, 2020)

@dvcochran I got my 3rd dan in August 2018.  I was testing for 3rd dan, 3rd gup (think of it like black belt v3.3).  My next test is 4th gup, which will probably be in April, and then 4th Dan after that (next December).

One of the big reasons I want to open my own school is because of the frustrating things my Master does.  If that's just him, or if that's "Korean Teaching 101", it doesn't matter.  Most of the time, it's just something I can shrug off.  But in this case, it's not.

Im saying he listed over a dozen things I messed up.  Half of them I'm certain I didn't. The other half, Im pretty sure I didn't. Maybe one or two, but not all of them.  I'd have noticed if something was off.  I have a very good memory and attention to detail.   I was constantly checking myself through the test, second-guessing every move, thinking consciously about corrections he's given me recently, focusing on areas I've made mistakes in the past. 

So of the 12 glaring mistakes he said I made, I can write 6 of them off right off the bat.  The other 6 I'm 95% sure I did each of them right.  Which means I'm 99.999998% sure I didn't mess up all 6.  

The reason I'm less sure on those (95% instead of 100%) is ironically because I'm more confident in those.  I wasn't giving those as much critical attention because I was confident.  I haven't been given corrections recently, and I haven't struggled to perform those recently.  It's like driving to work: I don't remember most of my drives, because I'm basically on autopilot.


----------



## Steve (Oct 14, 2020)

skribs said:


> That's because my Taekwondo curriculum is something I'm great at.  I've trained hadd to get there.  I rank myself as mediocre at Hapkido, mediocre at TKD sparring, and horrible at guitar. I was so bad at riding a motorcycle I gave up halfway through the class.  There are things I'm bad at. This isn't one.


Here's a case in point. If you had stuck out the class, you either would have passed or failed.  If you passed, great.  If you failed, you could take the class again.  Point being, I'm pretty sure you could learn to ride a motorcycle, but you quit even before you'd finished the class. It was hard, and you weren't getting the immediate results you expected, and so you quit.  

Why would BJJ be any different?


----------



## skribs (Oct 14, 2020)

Steve said:


> Here's a case in point. If you had stuck out the class, you either would have passed or failed.  If you passed, great.  If you failed, you could take the class again.  Point being, I'm pretty sure you could learn to ride a motorcycle, but you quit even before you'd finished the class. It was hard, and you weren't getting the immediate results you expected, and so you quit.
> 
> Why would BJJ be any different?



I also suck at guitar, and I've spent years in lessons.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 14, 2020)

skribs said:


> @dvcochran I got my 3rd dan in August 2018.  I was testing for 3rd dan, 3rd gup (think of it like black belt v3.3).  My next test is 4th gup, which will probably be in April, and then 4th Dan after that (next December).
> 
> One of the big reasons I want to open my own school is because of the frustrating things my Master does.  If that's just him, or if that's "Korean Teaching 101", it doesn't matter.  Most of the time, it's just something I can shrug off.  But in this case, it's not.
> 
> ...


We do not do the step testing's, at all. When you are ready, you are ready, regardless of time past the minimum. I will leave that right there.
It is pretty cut and dried that the clock starts ticking on your next text from the time you get your current belt/rank (when you receive your KKW certificate) based on years of current Dan rank. And there are several conditions above and beyond time (like concurrent training, and Much more). I know for fact our GM has/will hold a certificate if it is warranted. Sorry buy you are very much in fast forward chasing rank, for various reasons. I cannot say I follow your logic on why but it is what it is it and I hope I can help in some way. I cannot say I have ever seen a test or tester who was so statistically driven. That is just not what it is about. I have to ask, what are you making your comparison(s) against? I feel you need to reevaluate what you are using for your basis of comparison. 
I enjoy our banter and only coming from a position of critical help. Believe me when I say it is Not about some measurable dynamic on how "perfect" you do a form or even a drill at your station. Especially when you are an instructor in a large school, which you are. There is another gear you are missing, and honestly I feel you are stripping. I hope that makes sense. 
Slow your roll.


----------



## skribs (Oct 14, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> We do not do the step testing's, at all. When you are ready, you are ready, regardless of time past the minimum. I will leave that right there.
> It is pretty cut and dried that the clock starts ticking on your next text from the time you get your current belt/rank (when you receive your KKW certificate) based on years of current Dan rank. And there are several conditions above and beyond time (like concurrent training, and Much more). I know for fact our GM has/will hold a certificate if it is warranted. Sorry buy you are very much in fast forward chasing rank, for various reasons. I cannot say I follow your logic on why but it is what it is it and I hope I can help in some way. I cannot say I have ever seen a test or tester who was so statistically driven. That is just not what it is about. I have to ask, what are you making your comparison(s) against? I feel you need to reevaluate what you are using for your basis of comparison.
> I enjoy our banter and only coming from a position of critical help. Believe me when I say it is Not about some measurable dynamic on how "perfect" you do a form or even a drill at your station. Especially when you are an instructor in a large school, which you are. There is another gear you are missing, and honestly I feel you are stripping. I hope that makes sense.
> Slow your roll.



I'm not in fast forward.  Kukkiwon requirement is 3 years from 3rd Dan to 4th Dan.  It will have been 3 years and 4 months before I test.  I am going to meet all of my Master's requirements of things to learn, hours to teach, classes to take, etc.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 15, 2020)

skribs said:


> Im saying he listed over a dozen things I messed up. Half of them I'm certain I didn't. The other half, Im pretty sure I didn't. Maybe one or two, but not all of them. I'd have noticed if something was off. I have a very good memory and attention to detail. I was constantly checking myself through the test, second-guessing every move, thinking consciously about corrections he's given me recently, focusing on areas I've made mistakes in the past.


Skribs, you have said this over and over; that you Know you did not mess up or did not do X, which I do not doubt is true. Here is the tough part. You Know you did not mess up according to you preconceived and pre-concluded notions. For your sake what I hope is happening is your instructor pushing you to retrain, your thinking or perspective in some ways. That is the simplest way I can say it. Since we were not there it is a good amount of speculation but assuming you are accurate in retelling the event, which I expect you are, and assuming your instructor wasn't being a dxxk, and I will give him the benefit of a doubt since I do not know him, this is a clear, evident, and reasonable explanation.
Question on testing time; does your clock start ticking from the date of last testing?


----------



## skribs (Oct 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Skribs, you have said this over and over; that you Know you did not mess up or did not do X, which I do not doubt is true. Here is the tough part. You Know you did not mess up according to you preconceived and pre-concluded notions. For your sake what I hope is happening is your instructor pushing you to retrain, your thinking or perspective in some ways. That is the simplest way I can say it. Since we were not there it is a good amount of speculation but assuming you are accurate in retelling the event, which I expect you are, and assuming your instructor wasn't being a dxxk, and I will give him the benefit of a doubt since I do not know him, this is a clear, evident, and reasonable explanation.
> Question on testing time; does your clock start ticking from the date of last testing?


The clock starts from 3rd dan.  The intermediate tests are to help break down the curriculum into more manageable pieces.

If his advice was related to things I could improve, that would make sense.  If he didn't like my stances, my power, how high my kicks werez the angle of my foot, etc.  But his advice is that I just did the wrong technique.  I can't do anything with that if I did the right technique in the first place.


----------



## Raistlin (Oct 15, 2020)

It sounds to me like you no longer respect your teacher. You seem pretty convinced that you are right and your instructor is wrong. You mentioned that you want to quit after getting your 4th Dan so you can start your own school and teach things your way. It's fine to have your own style of doing things, my style is certainly different from my instructors style, but don't make the mistake of thinking you know it all. Find yourself someone you respect to mentor you. The learning should never stop. Don't forget where you came from. You might have outgrown your current instructor (it happens) but for you to stick with him all the way to 3rd Dan must mean he has brought a lot of benefit to your martial arts journey. 

I personally have trained with my instructor for over 30 years. I have my own school and have students and student's students that run their own schools as well. I now have many mentors that I go to to continue my training as my long-time instructor has taught me most of what he knows (although I can still learn from his experience), however he still holds a place of honor in my school for teaching me so much for so many years. He has earned that respect for the years of dedication to my learning and training. I can't imagine throwing him to the curb just because I feel he has nothing left to offer me. Maybe there is more to this?


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 15, 2020)

My teacher, and his teacher who is our system's chief instructor,  have both taught the same thing differently on many occasions.  I'm probably guilty of it, too.  I simply see that as now having more than one way of doing it.  And I do it the way they want at the moment. 

You're locked in on the idea that you couldn't have been wrong.  In my life experience... most times people are stubbornly sure they didn't do something like that, they cannot hear or perceive if they did.  The old story of the full teacup comes to mind.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 15, 2020)

skribs said:


> The clock starts from 3rd dan.  The intermediate tests are to help break down the curriculum into more manageable pieces.
> 
> If his advice was related to things I could improve, that would make sense.  If he didn't like my stances, my power, how high my kicks werez the angle of my foot, etc.  But his advice is that I just did the wrong technique.  I can't do anything with that if I did the right technique in the first place.


To be clear on the time between testing, for 3rd to 4th Dan it is 3 years from the date of your 3 Dan testing?


----------



## skribs (Oct 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> To be clear on the time between testing, for 3rd to 4th Dan it is 3 years from the date of your 3 Dan testing?


More than 3 years.

August 2018 to December 2021.  

Intermediate tests october 2019, april 2020, october 2020, and planned for april 2021.  Thise aren't part of the timer.


----------



## skribs (Oct 15, 2020)

Raistlin said:


> It sounds to me like you no longer respect your teacher. You seem pretty convinced that you are right and your instructor is wrong. You mentioned that you want to quit after getting your 4th Dan so you can start your own school and teach things your way. It's fine to have your own style of doing things, my style is certainly different from my instructors style, but don't make the mistake of thinking you know it all. Find yourself someone you respect to mentor you. The learning should never stop. Don't forget where you came from. You might have outgrown your current instructor (it happens) but for you to stick with him all the way to 3rd Dan must mean he has brought a lot of benefit to your martial arts journey.
> 
> I personally have trained with my instructor for over 30 years. I have my own school and have students and student's students that run their own schools as well. I now have many mentors that I go to to continue my training as my long-time instructor has taught me most of what he knows (although I can still learn from his experience), however he still holds a place of honor in my school for teaching me so much for so many years. He has earned that respect for the years of dedication to my learning and training. I can't imagine throwing him to the curb just because I feel he has nothing left to offer me. Maybe there is more to this?



He's good to his students. Not so much to his staff.


----------



## Leviathan (Oct 24, 2020)

Hi Skrib,

I haven't practiced TKD but other MAs and I totally understand you're upset. You are a perfectionist and so it is no wonder that you are disappointed with a result that would please many other students. As you are already black belt 3rd dan I take it for granted you know what you are talking about. 

I do not consider you are bashing your trainer here: you are just questioning his behavior at the test and some weird reactions he has once in a while (changing his mind about what it considered the right technique and blaming the students for not anticipating this). You are free to think and speak your mind. Bashing would be "he's a piece of ***, doesn't know anything about TKD blabla...", trying to make him bad in pretty much a lot of things. You're miles away from it. But in MAs I find people put the trainer on a throne, calling him "master" / sensei and viewing him as more than what he really is. MA students often consider their trainer as some kind of moral authority who's always right. So no wonder some people here view your questioning as a heresy. 

I admire your quest for perfection, that's a great contribution to the art and makes you excel. But that mindset also puts a lot of pressure on you when your - I would say justified - expectation has not been met. That's the case here with the test result.

I would advise you to consider why you are training TKD. Is it to please your instructor? It is virtually impossible to do when the person to please doesn't know what they want or changes their mind about this. Is it for a "degree" / diploma? Well TKD has more to offer than that. I would advise you to consider whether you can still get anything from that trainer. Is he still teaching you anything? If the answer is "no" I would consider looking for another trainer. If you need that 4th dan to be able to teach, can you go to another trainer to get up to that level? If the answer is "no", have you considered changing the TKD organization? 

Don't let your happiness and fulfillment in TKD depend on the versatile appraisal of someone else (especially if they may view you as a potential competitor or maybe want to maintain an edge over you). Look and raise beyond the test note, TKD is more than that, you are more than that as well and you can do more than that. Find your way. 

Bruce Lee was not such an outstanding martial artist because he got high ranks in a given martial art but because he found his way and excelled at it. 

Take care.


----------



## skribs (Oct 24, 2020)

Leviathan said:


> Hi Skrib,
> 
> I haven't practiced TKD but other MAs and I totally understand you're upset. You are a perfectionist and so it is no wonder that you are disappointed with a result that would please many other students. As you are already black belt 3rd dan I take it for granted you know what you are talking about.
> 
> ...



He is still teaching me stuff, although a lot of the time what he's teaching me is new combinations to memorize, not necessarily actually new things to learn.  I feel like my next big area of growth is either going to be:

Picking up a new art (where I am going to hopefully grow explosively during the first year, as opposed to the classes I'm in where I've hit strong diminishing returns)
Striking out on my own, where I can be more creative, and where I can learn from my own failures
However, for #2 to happen, I need that rank.

I'm not so much worried about the score myself.  The issue is that it is published.  At the time I was worried how to handle if the students were to see that I just passed.  I'm the type that likes to be honest about everything, but being honest in this case would lead to problems.  While I don't agree with the idea that an instructor or Master is put on a pedestal, I do think it has some benefit for kids.  The way I saw this going is that either people would not trust me as much as an instructor, or that the only way I would be true to myself if asked is if I were to air some laundry that needn't be aired.  There's a difference between anonymous posting on here, and directly complaining to our students (the difference is I'm not undermining him by airing my grievances here).  

But that was then.  So far, nobody has really talked to me about it except the few I discussed with - those who tested with me, those who graded our testing session, and my parents (who are also black belts at my school).

Speaking of my parents, my Dad thinks that what happened was the other guy who is my rank made the mistakes, and for some reason my Master marked it as wrong on both of our sheets.  He thinks the same thing happened to him in a previous test with another student - where he's sure he didn't mess up, but he knows the other guy did.  My Mom brought up a test where she and I judged, and we thought all of the students would get Outstanding, and not a single one did.  We were both shocked.  It was a really low belt level, so I wasn't sure why he felt the need to be super hard on them.  It's something that happens every once in a while.  Maybe it's just this is the time I got caught in it.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 24, 2020)

skribs said:


> It's something that happens every once in a while. Maybe it's just this is the time I got caught in it.


Skribs, that is a very sage comment. I am in no way saying it is okay but sxxt happens. Especially when someone is being highly critical of themselves and other elements within the situation. I have followed this thread on MT and the one on reddit. I have not replied on reddit. The best advise you can hear is to evaluate the ability to be an instructor and open a school based on your self ability. From every dynamic. How good of a martial artist are you, regardless of rank? Consider it from the college diploma point of view. How well do you know your field of expertise? How good of a teacher/translator are you, regardless of context? Are you vested and connected within your organization? Do you have a good support vehicle? How good of a business person are you? Do you have a real plan and understand the financials? 
This is a list that should be long and ever changing.

About a year ago our Pastor died unexpectedly. An interim Pastor was sent to our church and immediately tried to ingratiate himself. To keep the story short it did not go well and he is no longer at our church. My point is sometimes people want to do something really, really bad. Sometimes they get there, sometimes not. Sometimes they realize Wanting to do something is very different from actually doing it well, or even at all. Wanting to be an instructor is a very good thing. Just know there are a Lot of boxes to check before you can do it successfully. Being an instructor (or anything else) and being a good instructor are two Very different things. Being a school owner/instructor is Much more.


----------



## skribs (Oct 24, 2020)

@dvcochran These are good questions.

_How good of a martial artist are you, regardless of rank?_ 
Technically I would rate myself very high.  In terms of athleticism and intangibles (i.e. how fast and accurate I read my opponents and how often I make the right decision in a fight) I would rate myself less high.  To be honest, I think I could get better at those more if I were on my own.  For one, I wouldn't beholden to this schedule, so I may find more time to work out (which I did for a brief moment when I was on a reduced schedule).  On the other hand, I don't think I would get more or less experience in the intangibles in either situation.

_Consider it from the college diploma point of view. How well do you know your field of expertise?_ 
This is where I feel is one of my biggest strengths, and why I feel confident in striking out on my own.  There's an old joke that goes something like this:  "Those who can, do.  Those who can't, teach."  While I don't think that's necessarily the case in martial arts, I think that from an academic perspective, I have a very good handle on the art. 

_How good of a teacher/translator are you, regardless of context?_ 
Teacher?  Incredible.  I've been teaching long before I started teaching martial arts.  My first job was a tutor for my college.  I've taught people competitive techniques in video games before I started back at TKD.  I was helping teach some of the stuff even before it became official that I was going to be an instructor.  And, despite the fact that none of the other black belts have gotten much attention from my Master in terms of mentoring them to be instructors, he has given me a lot to work with.  

_Are you vested and connected within your organization?_
Vested?  Working on it.  That's the whole reason for my "chasing" the degree.  Connected?  Absolutely not.  I have a few people online that I talk to (ironically there's another one like you that posts both here and on Reddit, although he favors Reddit).  That's something I would need to work on.  I would do so either when I take the Master course or when I venture off on my own.

_ Do you have a good support vehicle?_ 
In what way?

_How good of a business person are you?  Do you have a real plan and understand the financials?_
How good am I at business?  Not at all.  My experience is all in IT, which has nothing to do with business.  I do have a lot of experience with teaching and customer service.  However, my Dad has run his own business before.

My plan is to start as a part-time job that I would do after my day job.  In that way, I am not wholly dependent on it.  If I only ever have a handful of students, then that will be fine.  If I do manage to have a student boom, then I would expand (and probably quit my day job).  I would start by seeking a partnership which would be relatively low-risk for me (i.e. renting a room in a rec center or working for a rec center).  That would be a lot less cost than opening up my own school, which would be a much safer alternative.  Working for them may even alleviate some of the burden of onboarding and offboarding customers until I am more grounded in simply running the school.

As it stands, I want to say I'm at least 2 years out (probably 2.5-3 years out) from wanting to open my own school.  In the meantime, I've got 5 major things I want to accomplish first (get 4th Dan, qualify for Master, and 3 other things unrelated to Taekwondo).  While I am working on designing the curriculum and the culture that I want my school to have, it is still very much in the future.

And I may just decide instead of teaching TKD to go take another art.  I've already looked online at some BJJ schools that I like.  (Or maybe if I run a school where I only have 10 students or so, I can do both).


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 24, 2020)

skribs said:


> @dvcochran These are good questions.
> 
> _How good of a martial artist are you, regardless of rank?_
> Technically I would rate myself very high.  In terms of athleticism and intangibles (i.e. how fast and accurate I read my opponents and how often I make the right decision in a fight) I would rate myself less high.  To be honest, I think I could get better at those more if I were on my own.  For one, I wouldn't beholden to this schedule, so I may find more time to work out (which I did for a brief moment when I was on a reduced schedule).  On the other hand, I don't think I would get more or less experience in the intangibles in either situation.
> ...



Great post. I am going to chew on it some before I reply. I will say I think are you are very close to a good plan.


----------



## skribs (Oct 25, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Great post. I am going to chew on it some before I reply. I will say I think are you are very close to a good plan.


A couple of points to add:

We can't work on the sparring intangibles right now, because we can't spar (COVID restrictions).
I forgot to answer how good a translator I am.  I'm not.  Well, it depends on what you mean.  I'm pretty good at diagnosing where a student is having difficulty and helping explain things in different ways.  But I also only speak English, and learning other languages is not a skill I've ever possessed.  There are a couple of students at my school who I wouldn't even say are ESL, because I don't think they speak enough of it to consider it a second language.  I've had to teach them mostly by having them copy my movements.  I can't really explain anything to them.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 25, 2020)

skribs said:


> A couple of points to add:
> 
> We can't work on the sparring intangibles right now, because we can't spar (COVID restrictions).
> I forgot to answer how good a translator I am.  I'm not.  Well, it depends on what you mean.  I'm pretty good at diagnosing where a student is having difficulty and helping explain things in different ways.  But I also only speak English, and learning other languages is not a skill I've ever possessed.  There are a couple of students at my school who I wouldn't even say are ESL, because I don't think they speak enough of it to consider it a second language.  I've had to teach them mostly by having them copy my movements.  I can't really explain anything to them.


1.) Lends itself to the program you plan to promote. In simplest terms using only WT/KKW rules for sparring is going to leave serious gaps for a lot of people because people are just more informed and influence from styles like MMA/BJJ are very real. Take your large school for example. Do all people there compete in WT tournaments or are some there for other reasons? 
So you will have to decide if you are going to be a pure WT/KKW school (which I think is fleeting and puts up limits) or be a more comprehensive school. This does not necessarily mean you have to go out and master another very dynamically opposed style (like BJJ for example).Although not a bad thing; but time would be a factor. It does mean you need exposure and experience from other styles and more importantly variation within the TKD style. And yes, this can be in schools who are flying only the KKW banner. 
It would be harder on a smaller student scale but we have competition sparring classes that go by WT sparring rules. Looking forward (which I do a Lot) I do not see anything making me believe we well ever see the spike in TKD popularity like we saw in the 80's -90's. Hopefully it will stay in the Olympics for a few/several more cycles but I have set in on the voting process twice and can tell you there are no voters every time. 
I strongly believe the best thing a TKD school can do is promote realistic & wholistic sparring in regular class and then, if needed, offer specialty sparring classes. 
Another thing to chew on. Many of your sparring comments sound like they come from a position of your own improvement in sparring. That is of course a very good thing however there will become a time when you have to understand your job is to make everyone Better than yourself. If you get a few exceptional new students in your first ever class and that could be from day one as an instructor. Believe me when I tell you that can be a humbling process. But man oh man does it feel good to get a big hug from someone when they get their first medal. You will find that most of the very successful high level coaches were not high level competitors. Funny how that works.

2.) Nail on the head. I meant how well can you express the TKD material in all three aspect, verbally, visually, tactilely? We has Asians and Indians in class often who speak little to no English so the latter two are paramount. One of the worst things an 'instructor' can do is be a mostly verbal teacher.


----------



## skribs (Oct 25, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> 1.) Lends itself to the program you plan to promote. In simplest terms using only WT/KKW rules for sparring is going to leave serious gaps for a lot of people because people are just more informed and influence from styles like MMA/BJJ are very real. Take your large school for example. Do all people there compete in WT tournaments or are some there for other reasons?
> So you will have to decide if you are going to be a pure WT/KKW school (which I think is fleeting and puts up limits) or be a more comprehensive school. This does not necessarily mean you have to go out and master another very dynamically opposed style (like BJJ for example).Although not a bad thing; but time would be a factor. It does mean you need exposure and experience from other styles and more importantly variation within the TKD style. And yes, this can be in schools who are flying only the KKW banner.



I definitely plan to include what I know of Hapkido.

I'd like to take BJJ classes.  Every school I've looked at has had a "striking" or Muay Thai class as well, which means I could get different perspectives on strikes (especially punches).  Like you said, time is a factor.

_Of course, with that said, I don't know how much of the BJJ I'd actually include.  If I do include groundfighting, it's mainly going to be with the goal of getting back to the feet.  Nothing against groundfighting, it's just that there's only so much training time, and since we already train standup, my goal is to *escape* the ground game.  If someone wants to learn groundfighting, I'd expect them to take an art focused on that._


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 25, 2020)

_How good of a martial artist are you, regardless of rank?_
Technically I would rate myself very high. In terms of athleticism and intangibles (i.e. how fast and accurate I read my opponents and how often I make the right decision in a fight) I would rate myself less high. To be honest, I think I could get better at those more if I were on my own. For one, I wouldn't beholden to this schedule, so I may find more time to work out (which I did for a brief moment when I was on a reduced schedule). On the other hand, I don't think I would get more or less experience in the intangibles in either situation.

What is you comparator? Success within your school or your systems tournaments? If so that is a pretty closed circuit, narrow view, and I would say not completely realistic. If you can say you are pushing the envelope and have had high success outside your normal circle and with larger circuits then I would say using you 'skill' as a marketing tool may carry some weight. Just be certain you can put your money where your mouth is. 
The athleticism is a marketable tool if done correctly. Just remember, there has to be a transition from Your athleticism to your students/program in whole. 
Be careful about thinking you will have More time to work on things when you open a school. There should/will be several things that are going to add weight to your schedule. And like nearly everyone I know you are starting the venture as a side gig. Even in the rec room/gym scenario it may demand more time than you anticipate, taking away from your free time to workout. Life does get in the way sometimes. And you have to weigh where you will get your increased/higher training information going forward. 

_Consider it from the college diploma point of view. How well do you know your field of expertise?_
This is where I feel is one of my biggest strengths, and why I feel confident in striking out on my own. There's an old joke that goes something like this: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." While I don't think that's necessarily the case in martial arts, I think that from an academic perspective, I have a very good handle on the art.

That old saying is taken out of context often. And it really has two meanings. The first, and this could be applied as a person who has academic knowledge but no real applied knowledge. Being an EE who went back to college in my 30's to get my two Master's degree I see this pretty clearly. I was a non-typical inverse in my younger years. I had very good applied knowledge but did not have an adequate diploma compared to some of my piers so I went back to school to close that loop, mostly because I really wanted to do it for me but also to get some formalities out of the way and make work easier. I also think it is more prevalent today that a diploma/certificate on the wall does not swing nearly as big a hammer as it used to. The proof is in the results of your students more than yourself. 
The second truth about that saying is that it is an inevitability if you do something long enough or if life deals you a bad hand. I can do only a small fraction physically of what I used to do. It is that simple. If I dwelled on that my life would pretty much suck. Partly from a very active and challenging lifestyle, part from age, but mostly from getting dealt a bad set of cards when I was 38. But, and this is a Huge but, the excitement and satisfaction I get watching someone do well is far better than many of my personal best accomplishments. So saying 'he can't so he teaches' can and is often taken out of context. It has much to do with age and perspective. 

_How good of a teacher/translator are you, regardless of context?_
Teacher? Incredible. I've been teaching long before I started teaching martial arts. My first job was a tutor for my college. I've taught people competitive techniques in video games before I started back at TKD. I was helping teach some of the stuff even before it became official that I was going to be an instructor. And, despite the fact that none of the other black belts have gotten much attention from my Master in terms of mentoring them to be instructors, he has given me a lot to work with.

I would argue that the classroom is not the best model to use to say 'I am a good MA teacher'. A purely academic or sedentary environment just does not translate well to a physically challenging and dynamically live environment. Your instructor working with you is a good thing. Just make sure you are being mentored and nurtured and not being use as a mule. FWIW, it is good to hear a positive about your instructor.

_Are you vested and connected within your organization?_
Vested? Working on it. That's the whole reason for my "chasing" the degree. Connected? Absolutely not. I have a few people online that I talk to (ironically there's another one like you that posts both here and on Reddit, although he favors Reddit). That's something I would need to work on. I would do so either when I take the Master course or when I venture off on my own.

I cannot overstate how important it is to get involved with your organization outside of you school if you plan to open your own place. Hopefully there is a lot of offerings and support for potential school owners. This really needs to be live, face to face interaction. IMHO

_Do you have a good support vehicle?_
In what way?

Financially, mentally, culturally, etc... 

_How good of a business person are you? Do you have a real plan and understand the financials?_
How good am I at business? Not at all. My experience is all in IT, which has nothing to do with business. I do have a lot of experience with teaching and customer service. However, my Dad has run his own business before.

This is huge to me. Honestly, I did not realize I was good at business until sometime after I started teaching and had the opportunity for property ownership. Then things really started to click. Whether you get to ownership or not I strongly encourage you to set down and write out a plan, then change it, then change it again. Milestones are huge. Benchmarks are huge. Ties back to your support vehicle and vestment. Once the plan starts to gel you will likely see the opportunities begin to present themselves. This is seldom a 'me' centric thing.
NEVER overextend your finances. There is very little change in the profit line. There is a mild change in the curve at the first of the year (New Year resolutions and such) but nothing sustaining. The biggest successes I have seen have been from promoting your better product and from relationships; building them from within your clientele and within your business/association. You should never be afraid to share and promote with other schools. If you are that is saying something negative about your program. Loudly.

My plan is to start as a part-time job that I would do after my day job. In that way, I am not wholly dependent on it. If I only ever have a handful of students, then that will be fine. If I do manage to have a student boom, then I would expand (and probably quit my day job). I would start by seeking a partnership which would be relatively low-risk for me (i.e. renting a room in a rec center or working for a rec center). That would be a lot less cost than opening up my own school, which would be a much safer alternative. Working for them may even alleviate some of the burden of onboarding and offboarding customers until I am more grounded in simply running the school.

Base skillset aside (MA's), marketing it the number one most important thing to learn. Again, this is Never a 'me' centric thing. I have seen way too much of this in the MA industry. 

As it stands, I want to say I'm at least 2 years out (probably 2.5-3 years out) from wanting to open my own school. In the meantime, I've got 5 major things I want to accomplish first (get 4th Dan, qualify for Master, and 3 other things unrelated to Taekwondo). While I am working on designing the curriculum and the culture that I want my school to have, it is still very much in the future.

So what do you say to someone who has trained for 20+ years but never chased rank? They can have a wealth of information and if they are a great teacher why would someone Not want to learn from them? I am certain I know more successful school owners who started teaching as a color belt or 1st Dan. Few people care about instructor rank early in the journey. I get the sense some of the rank thing is really being shoved down your throat from your school/organization. And this is coming from someone who is pretty anal about rank/structure. At some point you could have students that catch up with you in rank but remember you should be progressing along with them so it would be several years down the road. And that ties back to you have good relationship with you instructor or organization. For you that would also include WT/KKW. 

And I may just decide instead of teaching TKD to go take another art. I've already looked online at some BJJ schools that I like. (Or maybe if I run a school where I only have 10 students or so, I can do both).

You have mentioned BJJ before. If it is of interest to you I strongly suggest you get the bug out before divesting in a school. I did not start Kali until after we had a good compliment of black belts to help share the teaching load and I had two paid BB's on staff. More of life will happen to you sooner or later and you can only spread so thin. Then nothing is enjoyable. I have been there more than once and it is no fun at all.


----------



## skribs (Oct 26, 2020)

@dvcochran I'll respond to some of your post.  Some things I don't have anything to say on, other things I don't have anything productive to say.

Regarding the schedule: right now I'm doing 5 days a week.  Our full schedule (pre-COVID) was 6 days a week.  My plan if I open a school is 2-3 nights a week, which would leave a lot more time free.  If the class size blows up to where I need a full schedule, then I can quit my day job.  I'm almost positive I'll find more time than I do now, where I leave for work at 6:30 in the morning, race from work to TKD where I am a few minutes late to the first class, and then get home around 8:30 at night.  (It was 9:30 with our pre-COVID schedule).

Regarding the environment: I am actively participating in every class.  If I'm leading, I lead the techniques by example.  If I'm helping, I will follow along until someone needs help.  I still take classes as well.  I am definitely active, and more than just academically so.  There are lots of good things about my Master.  I do want to use a lot of what he teaches.  Just I'd like to teach in a different way.

He's also got a few eccentricities.  He's paranoid about his curriculum being stolen (which is why I don't post any of it on here).  I sent him a message with the link to the KKW Taegeuk videos.  He made me delete the message because KKW doesn't want that information getting out.  Those videos are easily searchable on YouTube from their official Youtube channel.  I just had to nod my head.

Regarding marketing: That's definitely something I've looked into.  I know we don't do much marketing at all, and we constantly have new students coming in.  Today alone we had around 9-10 new students.  Although it could just be that our word-of-mouth game is really strong.

Regarding rank: I started teaching at blue belt.  Actually, I started stepping onto the mat and helping out as a green belt, it became official as a blue belt.  However, in order to have the combination of:

The ability to use a reputable name (Kukkiwon)
The freedom to use a curriculum of my own design, instead of my Master's
In order to that, I need to have the rank and qualification.  

If someone has 20+ years and never chased rank, they've still probably got a decent rank.  Unless they didn't rank up at all, in which case they wouldn't be progressing along with their students.  Even if you say 5 years to black belt, and add 2 extra years for each Dan, they should be well into 3rd Dan after 20 years.  _Unless of course we're talking a school/art that's really stingy on giving out black belts, like a lot of "old school" TKD schools or a BJJ school, or we're talking a student who took an art which doesn't have belts, or bounced around for 3-4 years at different schools, such as someone in the military or someone who wants a well-rounded skillset.
_
If someone has that experience and doesn't have the rank, then they can essentially do whatever they want if they open a school.  But if they don't have the rank, they may be limited in what organizations they can fall under, or they may be limited in how much freedom they have to teach.  For example, if they wanted to teach KKW TKD and they were only a 1st Dan, they would likely have to teach directly under a Master, instead of opening their own school.  Either that, or they wouldn't be able to say it's KKW TKD.  (Outside of specific circumstances, like if they're the highest ranking person in a reasonable area).  

Regarding BJJ: It's definitely something I'm considering.  However, I want to be ready to open my own school, so I can make the decision.  I don't want to just change arts because I gave up on my plans for this one.  I want to do it because I decided that was what I wanted to do.  So I want to keep preparing to open my own school, even if I don't do it yet.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> @dvcochran I'll respond to some of your post.  Some things I don't have anything to say on, other things I don't have anything productive to say.
> 
> Regarding the schedule: right now I'm doing 5 days a week.  Our full schedule (pre-COVID) was 6 days a week.  My plan if I open a school is 2-3 nights a week, which would leave a lot more time free.  If the class size blows up to where I need a full schedule, then I can quit my day job.  I'm almost positive I'll find more time than I do now, where I leave for work at 6:30 in the morning, race from work to TKD where I am a few minutes late to the first class, and then get home around 8:30 at night.  (It was 9:30 with our pre-COVID schedule).
> 
> ...



***I hope we continue this conversation.


----------



## skribs (Oct 27, 2020)

@dvcochran

Compensation: Yes...well, I decided to volunteer my time during COVID, but for the several years between black belt and COVID, yes.

Videos: It was especially weird, because he's told people to search for videos of Taegeuks on Youtube before.  This is one area where I do want to do things different.  I think that providing students with materials they can use at home will make it more likely for them to practice at home.

Other Schools: I know of a few that are fairly well-established in the area.  There's also a few Karate schools and other martial arts as well.



> ***But you really don't if you truly have the knowledge.



So KKW would let me run a school right now?



> _***_20 years was just a number I chose. I guess I should have said 40 to make the point better. Forget about you idea of time between belts. Forget belts for a minute. If someone has diligently worked out for 20-30-40 years they have a Ton of knowledge. There are people out there who wear an unidentifiable black belt because they are not worried about a number or rank. They are not worried about KKW or ITF or ATA or Tiger Rock or whatever. That does not diminish their skill or knowledge. I am just saying everyone needs to make certain their skill & knowledge surpasses their rank, perceived or otherwise. This is where made up, perceived standards by strangers are not met and where ranks (numbers) can be more liability than asset. I promise this gets easier to understand with time.
> 
> Especially with the ease of information it is easier to build and follow a curriculum, whether you make up your own or want to follow an established standard like KKW, ITF, etc... Like it or not certification and belting does not carry as much weight as it used to. Popular styles like BJJ (where belting takes a Long time) and MMA where it does not exist has extinguished some of the 'fire' for belting. Kids would still be the exception here.
> So anyone can literally go to Youtube, 'learn' the Taegueks and start teaching them. Are they teaching them well and correct? Who knows. This is part of the ensuing battle teachers and schools must fight.



My Mom told me a story of two guys she used to work with.  One guy had all the experience and knowledge.  The other guy had the college degree.  The other guy was the guy who was the manager, with more authority, more responsibility, and a much better paycheck.  But the one guy was the guy who actually fixed things.

Similarly, when I apply for jobs within my profession, I need to have specific certifications.  Some jobs are even ridiculous, that if you have *better* certifications, but don't have the one they want, then you aren't qualified.  For example, Security+ is a fairly easy certification to get (compared to others in the field).  If a job calls for Security+ and you don't have it, then you can't get the job - even if you have the required experience.  In some cases, even if you have the CISSP (which is much harder to get), you can be disqualified because you don't have Security+.

However, that's just what gets you in the door.  I still had to do an interview.  During the interview, they didn't ask "what certs do you have?"  (Maybe they did, but it was one question among many).  Instead, they asked things about my personality, my work style, my experience, and asked "how would you handle this type of a situation?"  I then had a probationary period, where I was a little bit more scrutinized to make sure I was working hard and well for the company.

Paper qualifications are just as important as your skills and knowledge, because it gives legitimacy to your claims (especially in today's age where you can research anyone online).  In arts that don't have rank, they may still have certificates, fighting records, etc.  That's not to devalue the skill, experience, and teaching ability.  Both are important.  I wouldn't have my job without my ability to manage systems, and I wouldn't have my job without my paper certifications.  I wouldn't expect to run a school without both the skill and the qualifications, either. 

Because as you said - ease of information.  If anyone can go to my school and see I'm only a 1st Dan or 2nd Dan, and then ask online, someone might say "a 1st Dan shouldn't be running a school", and that right there delegitimizes my school.  That other person has no way of knowing my skill or abilities.  They only know that on paper, I'm not qualified.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> He's also got a few eccentricities. He's paranoid about his curriculum being stolen (which is why I don't post any of it on here). I sent him a message with the link to the KKW Taegeuk videos. He made me delete the message because KKW doesn't want that information getting out. Those videos are easily searchable on YouTube from their official Youtube channel. I just had to nod my head.



What the heck?! Kukkiwon's whole job and ethos is to share the information! That's why they produced the new video series they have. It's why they hold a very VERY reasonably priced master instructor course every year. Their main job has been to specify correct Taekwondo, set standards for judging it (and processing certificates for those that have done so) and share that specification.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> So KKW would let me run a school right now?



Kukkiwon doesn't care who runs schools. They only care that people promoting others to coloured belts are 4th Dan or above, and that those promoting people to 1st Dan or above are Kukkiwon 4th Dan or above AND a certified Kukkiwon master.

In the UK it's common for 1st/2nd Dans to run schools, they just need to bring a master in for testing.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 27, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> In the UK it's common for 1st/2nd Dans to run schools, they just need to bring a master in for testing.


This is exactly my point. There are work arounds that are quite common these days.


----------



## skribs (Oct 27, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> What the heck?! Kukkiwon's whole job and ethos is to share the information! That's why they produced the new video series they have. It's why they hold a very VERY reasonably priced master instructor course every year. Their main job has been to specify correct Taekwondo, set standards for judging it (and processing certificates for those that have done so) and share that specification.



Like I said, a few eccentricities.  I even told him that I found these posted on a couple of different sites.  



andyjeffries said:


> Kukkiwon doesn't care who runs schools. They only care that people promoting others to coloured belts are 4th Dan or above, and that those promoting people to 1st Dan or above are Kukkiwon 4th Dan or above AND a certified Kukkiwon master.
> 
> In the UK it's common for 1st/2nd Dans to run schools, they just need to bring a master in for testing.



I don't really see that happening here. For one, they would be my competition.  For another, they would be my competition. 

On the one hand, if students are shopping around and my credentials are significantly less, I'm less marketable.

On the other hand, I don't see why a business owner would want to help me, when my customers could potentially be their customers.  At the very least, I don't think my Master would promote anyone who didn't learn his curriculum, his way; because he doesn't want his name on something not done his way.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Oct 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> Like I said, a few eccentricities.  I even told him that I found these posted on a couple of different sites.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Unless you’re running a fight gym, your credentials aren’t really all that important most of the time. Far more important is what you can do to benefit the student. When I sit down to enroll a student, my rank comes up maybe 1% of the time. I do mention my years of experience and my education credentials. 

Like Andy said, if you plan to certify black belts through Kukkiwon, you need a certified master to help with that. Plenty of school owners just issue school certificates and do fine. 

If and when you first start out, you’ll almost certainly need to market aggressively to be successful, but you won’t be marketing your school based on your rank. 

I’m not saying you shouldn’t bother with credentials, just that those credentials will be far more important to you than to the vast majority of your potential students. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 28, 2020)

skribs said:


> On the other hand, I don't see why a business owner would want to help me, when my customers could potentially be their customers.



I'm lucky that I run my school as a non-profit ethos and have a very "if students want to learn from me, great, if they want to go elsewhere, that's fine too" sort of attitude. However, as I understand most US schools aren't that way, let me use my business experience to explain why it may still work.

If Master X in another area agrees to help you with testing:

a) he's in another area so not really your competition for students
b) he could charge some fee for the testing every time
c) he forms a relationship with another school leading to:
   1) more potential customers for any products he makes
   2) more potential customers for any seminars he hosts

As long as you're not asking another master that is just a few miles away, there are benefits aside from the potential competition.



skribs said:


> At the very least, I don't think my Master would promote anyone who didn't learn his curriculum, his way; because he doesn't want his name on something not done his way.



Your master is a bit of an unusual case though (from what you've said above). I teach Kukkiwon standard Taekwondo. I don't generally offer my examining services to other clubs (mainly because I have very strict standards and don't want them to feel bad if their students don't reach them), but if I knew the instructor/club/students (i.e. as per point 'c' above had formed some relationship with the school), as long as they met the criteria and standards I'd happily test them.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 28, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> Unless you’re running a fight gym, your credentials aren’t really all that important most of the time. Far more important is what you can do to benefit the student. When I sit down to enroll a student, my rank comes up maybe 1% of the time. I do mention my years of experience and my education credentials...If and when you first start out, you’ll almost certainly need to market aggressively to be successful, but you won’t be marketing your school based on your rank. I’m not saying you shouldn’t bother with credentials, just that those credentials will be far more important to you than to the vast majority of your potential students.



This ^ Absolutely this ^

If you have higher rank than the others in your area, use it (it's a marketing plus point), if you don't have it, then emphasise other areas (extensive curriculum, family-friendly environment, health benefits, etc) in your marketing/advertising. As Jaeimseu said, most people don't really care. They see a black belt in the west as a super ninja-killer, and most don't know what different Dan numbers even mean.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 28, 2020)

skribs said:


> Like I said, a few eccentricities.  I even told him that I found these posted on a couple of different sites.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is a compromising approach especially in a service industry. I encourage you not to let your experience(s) taint your future plans and to warm up to the idea of an open door. Better to get to know and learn about your competition and figure out what you can do different or better. Even better than that is to be very, very good at your core stuff. If you want to be competitive, or at least keep the doors open for that matter it is going to be from Your product and Your offering. And I mean Everything in the first person. That said, ego has to be appropriately checked. Passion on the other hand...
All the stallions are in the same field so what makes yours different? It certainly will not be by trying to make people think you have the only real 'ancient Chinese secret'.
It is quite common to work together and share information between schools. That is a Very good thing that has led to the industry moving forward. And that is coming from someone in a very traditional TKD environment. Lets be real, there really isn't any 'secret' or exclusive information in MA's now-a-days. Possibly in a high end fighter exclusive environment but not at all in the average MA school/system. Like anfyjefferies said KKW and particularly in regards to the Taegueks are a wide open platform. 
I still strongly feel the best thing you can do for you is to visit and work out at as many local schools as you can, and farther out if possible. It is eye opening to say the least. That is the best way for anyone to get an idea of what works and what doesn't.
That is no way means you have to break ties with your current school. Possibly better that they do not know about it at all.


----------



## skribs (Oct 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> All the stallions are in the same field so what makes yours different? It certainly will not be by trying to make people think you have the only real 'ancient Chinese secret'.



It's ancient Korean secrets, of course.



andyjeffries said:


> I'm lucky that I run my school as a non-profit ethos and have a very "if students want to learn from me, great, if they want to go elsewhere, that's fine too" sort of attitude. However, as I understand most US schools aren't that way, let me use my business experience to explain why it may still work.



That's kind of the point.  If they want to learn elsewhere, then the "elsewhere" should be responsible for their learning (not me).



andyjeffries said:


> If Master X in another area agrees to help you with testing:
> 
> a) he's in another area so not really your competition for students
> b) he could charge some fee for the testing every time
> ...



I guess this is the biggest thing - that it's not close enough to be direct competition.  I can imagine it from my perspective.  If I were an instructor, this would be my thought process:

If you are far away and there's nobody else in the area, that makes sense
If you are far away and there's another Master closer to you, why aren't you under him?
If you are close, why aren't you under me?


----------



## skribs (Oct 29, 2020)

For anyone questioning my teaching abilities: yesterday, one of my students said I'm the best teacher he's ever had.

I'm going to ignore the small sample size of him being in first grade and just accept that I am the best teacher ever.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 29, 2020)

skribs said:


> It's ancient Korean secrets, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is just very wrong thinking, regardless of the service industry. Why worry so much about the other guy when you can probably become better worrying about yourself/your own school?


----------



## skribs (Oct 29, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> That is just very wrong thinking, regardless of the service industry. Why worry so much about the other guy when you can probably become better worrying about yourself/your own school?


For one, that's exactly my point. Why help his school? Especially if I would need to travel to ratify his tests.  If he's close, why help the competition?

If I'm ratifying their tests, do I know how much I'm ratifying?  Is it fair to the students if I objectively grade one student high who has natural talent and a horrible attitude, because I don't know him, and grade another student poorly because I don't know of their injury history or medical conditions?

These would be my thoughts if someone asked me to test their students.  (Assuming I was qualified, I'd have even more concerns right now.)


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 29, 2020)

skribs said:


> For one, that's exactly my point. Why help his school? Especially if I would need to travel to ratify his tests.  If he's close, why help the competition?
> 
> If I'm ratifying their tests, do I know how much I'm ratifying?  Is it fair to the students if I objectively grade one student high who has natural talent and a horrible attitude, because I don't know him, and grade another student poorly because I don't know of their injury history or medical conditions?
> 
> These would be my thoughts if someone asked me to test their students.  (Assuming I was qualified, I'd have even more concerns right now.)


C'mon man. There is just so much wrong with that thinking. Plus you have to acknowledge you are getting way ahead of yourself in that reasoning. 
Everyone needs help, usually more often than we want to acknowledge. Having good relations with other schools and instructors is a major asset and a must have for a successful, vibrant school. With that kind of hoarding mentality you are going to have a hard time finding help when you need it. 
In context, ratifying someone's certificate/promotion is an honor and should be thought of that way. In your two examples, I would hope a person testing the good skill/poor attitude person would pick up on that and/or be informed by the person's instructor. The same should certainly be true for the person with a medical condition. That would be piss poor preparation on the front end of a testing. 
I really, really feel you logic is being dictated by your experience. You need to get outside your current experience.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> That's kind of the point.  If they want to learn elsewhere, then the "elsewhere" should be responsible for their learning (not me).



Maybe due to moving to different cities and age (adult), I've always felt that my learning was my responsibility.  

(I attended 4 different schools before getting a black belt).

I look to teachers to teach, then it is up to me to think about it and practise it.


----------

