# Martial Arts and Physical Fitness



## Makalakumu (Dec 29, 2004)

Do you think that Martial Arts and Physical Fitness should go hand in hand or do you think one can be a Martial Artist without being physically fit?  Why?


----------



## The Kai (Dec 29, 2004)

Conditioning is one of the pillars of martial arts training.  Of course, being in shape martial arts wise might not be in Gym Shape!

TODD


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Dec 29, 2004)

i have to agree with todd on this one. while it does help to be somewhat fit for the study of martial arts.....i dont think it is entirely necessary. fitness can become a by-product of martial arts training though.
i do believe in mental and physical conditioning. by physical conditioning, i mean that one is able to push their body beyond their normal limits.

shawn


----------



## OUMoose (Dec 29, 2004)

I believe physical fitness is crucial in martial arts.  MA's are not, for the most part, "natural" movements, so a lack of fitness is going to hinder an artist's development.  The body has to be capable of doing what you ask of it before it can surpass those limits.  

 :asian:


----------



## Simon Curran (Dec 29, 2004)

Altough I don't think you need to be a marathon runner, or a body builder, all the theoretical skill and knowledge in the world won't help you if your body is unable to carry out the brain's orders


----------



## shane23ss (Dec 29, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Conditioning is one of the pillars of martial arts training. Of course, being in shape martial arts wise might not be in Gym Shape!
> 
> TODD


I think this is exactly right. The reason I say that is because I have a friend that goes to the gym and works out constantly. He does cardio, weight training, etc. I have done some weight training in the gym my self, but my point is, he and I like to box on occasion, and even though he is in much better "gym" shape than me, he has no wind, and it really shows when he takes a good hit.

As far as MA movements not being "natural movements", they are not. That's why we train to the point where the movements become "muscle memory". All in all, if you are a good martial artist, AND in peak physical condition, it sure doesn't hurt any.


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Dec 29, 2004)

I think it depends on the type of art, too.  Obviously, someone with the same skills/training who is also in better shape (cardio, etc) will probably be able to perform better than another.

But I think it's a bit different if you are talking internal MA vs. external MA.  I know some fabulous internal-style guys who are not traditionally "in shape", but there's no way I'd want to take a punch from them.


----------



## Tgace (Dec 29, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> I know some fabulous internal-style guys who are not traditionally "in shape", but there's no way I'd want to take a punch from them.


Would they be able to jump a fence and run behind some cover before a gun weilding attacker could shoot them? Physical fitness is necessary. For more than just hand to hand fighting. Theres a reason elite soldiers place so much emphasis on physical fitness....


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Dec 29, 2004)

Oh, as to that, no.  I was just referring to skills and working together in the studio.  Of course, for being able to cover ground, etc., you'd want to be in good shape, with a nice tough cardiovascular system.

But if one of these guys was stopped in a bar with a drunk taking a swing at them, they would do very well, I'm sure.


----------



## Tgace (Dec 29, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Do you think that Martial Arts and Physical Fitness should go hand in hand or do you think one can be a Martial Artist without being physically fit? Why?


I think it depends on what we each define a "martial artist" as being. Dojo rat, street defense, competition, MMA/UFC, soldier etc......


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 29, 2004)

I would have to say that in an external art, physical fitness naturally goes hand in hand.  Physical fitness is part of an external martial art.  It happens through training and shaping your art and in a way, when you are honing your physical prowess, you are shaping your body artistically.

Even in an internal art physical fitness is an important part of the art.  Flexability, health, and stamina can all be required when training in these arts and the cultivation of the above can only improve your overall art.  For example, my tai chi instructor runs marathons and I have never seen anyone do the things he does.

We actually have physical fitness guidelines in our system.  To earn a black Belt under my instructor, all students must be able to run two miles in 15 minutes, bench press their own weight, squat 1.5 times their own weight, be able to do 50 fingertip push ups and 50 decline sit-ups.  Is this too much to require?  Too little?


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 29, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> But I think it's a bit different if you are talking internal MA vs. external MA.  I know some fabulous internal-style guys who are not traditionally "in shape", but there's no way I'd want to take a punch from them.



Is physical fitness important in internal arts?  This sounds like an entirely new thread.  I wonder what some of the internal artists have to say.


----------



## bignick (Dec 29, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> We actually have physical fitness guidelines in our system. To earn a black Belt under my instructor, all students must be able to run two miles in 15 minutes, bench press their own weight, squat 1.5 times their own weight, be able to do 50 fingertip push ups and 50 decline sit-ups. Is this too much to require? Too little?


 It depends on how your classes are run. If there is a strong emphasis on strength and stamina training in class I think it's not to much to require. However, if classes are mainly technique and practice and then you expect them to be able to do all these other physical requirements it is way too much. It is basically testing them on skills you've never taught them and that isn't right. 

 My black belt test included around a mile run, situps and pushups in a minutes, windsprints, flexibility tests and footwork drills. 

 I think you should try to be in good shape just for you general health, forget about helping your martial arts. Fitness should not be a pre-requisite of martial arts, but I feel it's one of it's greatest benefits.


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 29, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> However, if classes are mainly technique and practice and then you expect them to be able to do all these other physical requirements it is way too much. It is basically testing them on skills you've never taught them and that isn't right.



I think that if you are up front regarding your _dan _ expectations even if the physical activity of your class is limited, it is still okay.  The instructor should be cognizent that these skills require time to develop just like any other martial skills.  Which brings me to my point...physical fitness, in my opinion, _is _ a martial skill.



			
				bignick said:
			
		

> My black belt test included around a mile run, situps and pushups in a minutes, windsprints, flexibility tests and footwork drills.



Do you think that this is an essential part of your art?



			
				bignick said:
			
		

> I think you should try to be in good shape just for you general health, forget about helping your martial arts. Fitness should not be a pre-requisite of martial arts, but I feel it's one of it's greatest benefits.



I'm not sure I agree with this.  I don't know how the two could be separated if an overall goal of your training is self growth and improvement.


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Dec 29, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> We actually have physical fitness guidelines in our system. To earn a black Belt under my instructor, all students must be able to run two miles in 15 minutes, bench press their own weight, squat 1.5 times their own weight, be able to do 50 fingertip push ups and 50 decline sit-ups. Is this too much to require? Too little?


Wow.  I don't think I'd be able to do that - even with lots of training.  Bench press my own weight?  Not with my shoulder injury, and not at my weight.  And I'm not a behemoth.


----------



## Jade Tigress (Dec 29, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Do you think that Martial Arts and Physical Fitness should go hand in hand or do you think one can be a Martial Artist without being physically fit? Why?


I don't think they have to go hand in hand but I do think a person who is more fit can be more effective in martial arts. Martial Arts, even internal arts require strength, stamina, and flexilbity. A couch potato would be hard pressed to get through even the warm up excercises of a MA class, whether external or internal. Body builder buff doesn't necessarily mean physically fit. Thats only the strength aspect of total fitness. 

I do think regular exercise outside the Kwoon brings an advantage in training. I am 40 years old, I excercise regularly and even as a relative beginner can hold longer and lower horse stances, do more push ups, sits ups, jumping jacks and laps, can take a kick to the thigh, and win chin-na sparring with a 17 year old male brown belt in my class. 

He's not overweight. He's about 2 inches taller than me and has a good 30 pounds on me. He'll whip my butt regular sparring because he has far more experience than I in that dept. But I can keep up and not get tuckered out before he does. The areas where strength, stamina, and flexibility can make a difference I almost always have the upper hand and he is a very good martial artist and has much more knowledge and skill than I do. 

Then there is a 20-something blue belt about the same size as the brown belt but the blue belt excercises. He too has an advantage over the brown belt and I can't out-do him. We're about even in stamina, he has more strength than me as a male and I more flexibility as a female. But we are both physically fit for our genders in all three areas. If I didn't excercise regularly I'd be much further behind in my training. It has helped me be more effective while learning.

JMO
:asian:


----------



## bignick (Dec 29, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I think that if you are up front regarding your _dan _ expectations even if the physical activity of your class is limited, it is still okay. The instructor should be cognizent that these skills require time to develop just like any other martial skills. Which brings me to my point...physical fitness, in my opinion, _is _ a martial skill.


  And I can totally agree with you on this.  




			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Do you think that this is an essential part of your art?


 Hmm...essential? No. Useful, certainly. Martial arts, internal or external, are a physical activity. Certainly, the more fit you are the easier any physical activity is. 




			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I agree with this. I don't know how the two could be separated if an overall goal of your training is self growth and improvement.


 Here I was just trying to say that with an epidemic of obesity sweeping the country, people should try to excersize and become healthy without having to feel forced. They should want to get in shape for their own health. I wasn't really speaking from a martial arts standpoint. I certianly agree that if you are studying a physical art you should strive to perfect your medium. Just as a painter doesn't want to paint on shoddy canvas and a sculptor would really rather not use Play-Doh...we should try to perform our art with our medium (body) in the best possible condition it can be. 

  (and for all my big words on the subject, I've got some real work to do there)


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Dec 29, 2004)

i dont think fitness is a prerequisite......as i said before....its something that happens because of martial training.
i know some teachers that start their classes without warm-ups or any sort of exercises simply because you are not allowed to warm up on the street before a fight. thats not to say he doesnt put them through a rigorous workout that has them sweating their butts off.
i also dont think that the majority start studying martial arts because they want to be elite soldiers....or leaders in the fitness world.
there are a lot of great martial artists out there with big bellies that would give any young "fit" fellow a great deal to think about.

shawn


----------



## Simon Curran (Dec 30, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I would have to say that in an external art, physical fitness naturally goes hand in hand. Physical fitness is part of an external martial art. It happens through training and shaping your art and in a way, when you are honing your physical prowess, you are shaping your body artistically.
> 
> Even in an internal art physical fitness is an important part of the art. Flexability, health, and stamina can all be required when training in these arts and the cultivation of the above can only improve your overall art. For example, my tai chi instructor runs marathons and I have never seen anyone do the things he does.
> 
> We actually have physical fitness guidelines in our system. To earn a black Belt under my instructor, all students must be able to run two miles in 15 minutes, bench press their own weight, squat 1.5 times their own weight, be able to do 50 fingertip push ups and 50 decline sit-ups. Is this too much to require? Too little?


I would have to say that, in my opinion, is way too much to expect, considering every person is different, I exercise outside of class because that is just who I am, and have always done exercise, but to make demands which, for some people are just unreasonable, just seems unfair.


----------



## The Kai (Dec 30, 2004)

I try to avoid preset requirements, For testing the student is tested on the number of squats or pushup and then on the next test must beat that number.  Oh yeah, the student believes that there is a number, which is always "just a few more'.  We avoid weights and go with body weight exercises among othere reasons for the conditioning.

A person does not have to be in shape.  We do Staminai, strenght, flexibilty, skill or sparring training in each class.  People are encourages to cross train, I don't force them into the Vic tanny routine, I'd rather have em in my class!
Todd


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 30, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I try to avoid preset requirements, For testing the student is tested on the number of squats or pushup and then on the next test must beat that number.  Oh yeah, the student believes that there is a number, which is always "just a few more'.  We avoid weights and go with body weight exercises among othere reasons for the conditioning.
> 
> A person does not have to be in shape.  *We do Staminai, strenght, flexibilty, skill or sparring training in each class.  * People are encourages to cross train, I don't force them into the Vic tanny routine, I'd rather have em in my class!
> Todd



I don't think that a beginner needs to be "in shape" but I think that building fitness is just as important as building good technique as an artist.  Therefore, a BB in an art should probably be in very good physical shape.  

I suppose we could argue a long time about what "good shape" entails and that is okay.  Realistically, dojos/dojangs with different standards on fitness give people more options that fit their body type.

I'm looking at your post and I can see you do fitness orientated drills in your class, too.  

In my opinion, the best of both worlds combines the two aspects, technique and fitness.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Dec 30, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> To earn a black Belt under my instructor, all students must be able to run two miles in 15 minutes, bench press their own weight, squat 1.5 times their own weight, be able to do 50 fingertip push ups and 50 decline sit-ups.  Is this too much to require?  Too little?


I'd say that's too much to ask of people. I do however think that physical fitness is important but people have their limitations. _(side note: In the TKD section we discussed this in great depth and I made my point known on that thread). _  I prefer to see people run through their basics, move on to their forms and then perform self defense techniques on each other. Personally I could care less if the guy beside me can do 100 crunches. I tend to worry about me and the shape I'm in and make sure that I can run through a 2 or 2.5 hr. test w/o sucking wind at the end.  :asian:


----------



## Colin_Linz (Dec 30, 2004)

One of the philosophies of Shorinji Kempo is that it is not necessary to make your body into a weapon; by this I mean conditioning exercises like hardening the shins and knuckles, as we attack the naturally weak areas of the body. You will attain a degree of fitness under normal training practices, but we dont specifically train for fitness, as we are not a sport art and dont require it. I would rather spend the time teaching/learning better technique, and do fitness training some other time.

From a self defence point of view, the type of speed that comes with fitness training only stays with you while youre training and young; however good technique stays much longer and you will still be fast when you become older. Most times you are required to defend your self, it will involve anaerobic energy rather than aerobic energy. There will be no need to go 10 rounds, just a short explosive period of time.


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 30, 2004)

For my second dan test, I had to spar three trained BBs at the same time.  These guys came in at me full speed and we wore protective gear because the contact level was high.  The match was thirty seconds and the adrenelin was flowing.  By the end, I could barely talk...and I would consider myself to be in very good shape.  I have seen people collapse and/or vomit after this encounter unable to continue.

What if there were a forth guy?

This is why I feel like physical fitness is just as much of a martial skill as any technique that we learn.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Dec 30, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> For my second dan test, I had to spar three trained BBs at the same time. These guys came in at me full speed and we wore protective gear because the contact level was high. The match was thirty seconds and the adrenelin was flowing. By the end, I could barely talk...and I would consider myself to be in very good shape. I have seen people collapse and/or vomit after this encounter unable to continue.
> 
> What if there were a forth guy?
> 
> This is why I feel like physical fitness is just as much of a martial skill as any technique that we learn.


What youre describing is anaerobic fitness, at this intensity it doesnt matter how fit you are you will not last long. It is true that a good aerobic base and the right type of interval training can push your aerobic threshold up, and reduce your recovery time. As well as Martial Arts I also coach Cycling. I had the chance to view one of our elite cyclists telemetry from a 20-kilometre time trial. His heart rate was over 200 beats per minute, and he was still operating aerobically. This; however is different to a conflict, you wont be able to pace your self and your heart rate will go sky high, the adrenalin will see to that even if your physical exertion doesnt. You will go anaerobic, and no matter how fit you are you wont be able to sustain it for very long. You will live or die by how well you respond to the attack, this is were the correct training comes in. Fitness is important for general well being, or being able to compete in a sport; but when it comes to defending yourself the main factor is the correct trained responses.  Of course fitness does help in making a quick getaway.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Dec 30, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> This is why I feel like physical fitness is just as much of a martial skill as any technique that we learn.


I understand your point of view. It's nice to see your studio carrying high standards but the general population don't like to train like that. Again, I'm not saying that you are wrong or your instructor but the time in the studio should be placed on forms and self defense techniques with plenty of basics. I like a tough, hard class full of beating on bodies with as close to live techniques we can get. Sometimes it comes down to 'ya gotta put up your **ts and go. In this day and age most people want something for nothing and will put in as little effort to get it as well. Unfortunately that's true.  :asian:


----------



## TigerWoman (Dec 30, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> We actually have physical fitness guidelines in our system.  To earn a black Belt under my instructor, all students must be able to run two miles in 15 minutes, bench press their own weight, squat 1.5 times their own weight, be able to do 50 fingertip push ups and 50 decline sit-ups.  Is this too much to require?  Too little?



In my thirties I could do two miles in 15 since I was running six most every day, but then I had little upper body strength since I used my time to run. And didn't value it much then. Can't do everything. I would never be able to do 50 fingertips pushups. My fingers are long and crooked never mind the triceps etc. Situps I could do. But I do believe each person should have a goals on paper and upon testing see where you are at on them. I see too many people get to BB testing on a wish instead of a will and just skate until their test.  I haven't seen anybody test that was in great shape...that actually worked on flexibility, stamina, cardio, balance, and upper body strength.  I'm 55 and probably could still run them all into the ground. So I heartlily agree, a martial artist should be be fit and a TKDoist must be. TW


----------



## FearlessFreep (Dec 30, 2004)

FWIW, I started about six months ago and I do a set of physical exercises in the morning and evening because part of my reason for being in TKD in the first palce was to get back in shape and partially that's my only way of competing with the (often yonger) people around me.

Morning - 
Loosen up and stretching exercises
60 pushups*
60 situps
6 minutes jump rope
poomses - few times each

*the number of pusups/situps and time jumping rope increase every few weeks

Evening
30 situps
60 more pushups (but usually do two sets of 30 on an inclined surface)
eveing tends to be more free-form.  I try to do the situps faste or do different kinds of pushups or some limited jump rope with some snapkicks in the motion or...something to be more of a challenge

This is just trying to get myself back into some minimal fitness after a long time of doing nothing.  In TKD, if you are not loose and have leg strength, you really can't kick; if you have no stamina, you'll never survive sparring.  If you are overweight, good luck moving.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Dec 31, 2004)

I would agree that if you are in a sporting Martial Art fitness will be an issue. I also believe in keeping fit, but not wasting time doing conditioning training in the context of a Martial Arts class based on self-defence. I will do this external to the class, and the motivation will not be because I'm a Martial Artist, but just because I enjoy the training and being fit.

Recently we held the Oceania study session for Shorinji Kempo on the Gold Coast. We had three instructors out from Japan, one of them was Fujimoto sensei, a 62 year old 8th dan. Now I recon I could out run him or beat him in some strength related contest. Do I think he is an inferior martial artist to me? Not on your life! When he demonstrated a technique I watched him closely because he could teach me much.


----------



## Simon Curran (Dec 31, 2004)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> I would agree that if you are in a sporting Martial Art fitness will be an issue. I also believe in keeping fit, but not wasting time doing conditioning training in the context of a Martial Arts class based on self-defence. I will do this external to the class, and the motivation will not be because I'm a Martial Artist, but just because I enjoy the training and being fit.
> 
> Recently we held the Oceania study session for Shorinji Kempo on the Gold Coast. We had three instructors out from Japan, one of them was Fujimoto sensei, a 62 year old 8th dan. Now I recon I could out run him or beat him in some strength related contest. Do I think he is an inferior martial artist to me? Not on your life! When he demonstrated a technique I watched him closely because he could teach me much.


Kind of a verbalisation (if that is possible with text) of my own thoughts, I know of some guys who are considerably older than me, and not necessarily as fit as me, but I wouldn't want to think they were coming to take away my lunch money...


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 31, 2004)

Okay, I have a few points...

1.  Fitness is relative.  Age, injuries, and body type all come into play when one is talking about physical fitness.  That is why _I _ think that fitness requirements should be adjusted somewhat per person.  (My opinion differs from my instructor in this)
2.  Fitness is easy to incorporate into a self defense orientated martial art.  Learning good technique is one thing, but application is another.  Training application requires drilling and the construction of your drilling practice can really make the sweat flow.
3.  Two instructors, both the same rank and age.  One is fit, one is not.  Who do you think will have the most students?  I think the physically fit instructor _may be percieved_ as being more serious about the art.
4.  Everyone can have something to teach.  Physically fit or not.  I would pay attention to an instructor and respect that instructor fit or not.  My art will grow regardless.
5.  In the above situation I described, those who could not continue were hands down the least physically fit.  The lesson they learned was that fitness was important to self defense.  This shows that you can have great technique, but be ineffective if you lack the wind to perform it.

I like the above description for an easily accomplished workout routine.  Good one FearlessFreep


----------



## Colin_Linz (Dec 31, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Okay, I have a few points...
> 
> 1. Fitness is relative. Age, injuries, and body type all come into play when one is talking about physical fitness. That is why _I _think that fitness requirements should be adjusted somewhat per person. (My opinion differs from my instructor in this)
> 2. Fitness is easy to incorporate into a self defense orientated martial art. Learning good technique is one thing, but application is another. Training application requires drilling and the construction of your drilling practice can really make the sweat flow.
> ...



No problems here, I take it even further. Only the student knows how they are feeling, so it is up to them to decide if the intensity is too high, or if an exercise may not be good for them at the time. Most people will honestly try to do their best, and over time will be on a par with everyone else.
Yes indeed; however I regard application as technical training. This is legitimate productive training, unlike some classes I have seen that spend 1 hour of a 1.5 hour class on callisthenics. Once again if it is sport related there is a need, but even so I would rather spend the time improving their skill levels. They can go to an aerobics or circuit class any other time. I am a qualified coach, but I can teach them martial arts better than conduct fitness training. There are many fitness specialists out there that could do a better job.
I will concede that those with little knowledge of martial arts may choose the fitter looking instructor, but those with some experience will chose the instructor that they believe can teach them the most. Matsuda sensei in Tokyo is just an ordinary looking slightly overweight elderly gentlemen. This has not stoped him from having one of the biggest branches in Tokyo, he even has a number of students ranking 6 dan. Why is this? Because he is a very good martial artist and teacher.
Yes, this is true. It can even be true with regard to your students.


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 31, 2004)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> [*]Yes, this is true. It can even be true with regard to your students.[/list]



I think we in agreement then.  I wouldn't want to spend my class time doing calisthenics.  I would, however, like to combine MA activities that incorporate fitness as part of teaching techniques...

The last part is the hidden secret of teaching martial arts.  The students teach the teacher about his/her art at the same time that the teacher teaches them!


----------



## terryl965 (Jan 1, 2005)

physical fitnes is just as important as your mind being fit. Why do some people believe these two are seperate you must have both to be able to be active in martial arts, my opion anyway.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jan 1, 2005)

i guess you will just have to define "fitness" then.

shawn


----------



## MichiganTKD (Jan 1, 2005)

Physical fitness will be a natural byproduct of continued martial arts practice. It is only natural.
However, one thing that irritates me is Instructors who are obviously out of shape teaching younger, physically fit students. Why? Because students will naturally mimic the technique and movements of the person teaching them. If you have a younger student learning Tae Kwon Do from an older, out of shape, slower moving assistant, they will naturally copy that assistant's technique without being aware of it. What you will then have is a group of young, supposedly athletic students moving like old men. I've seen it happen.
You don't have to necessarily be in prime physical shape to practice or teach. However, an Instructor definitely needs to make sure that the person teaching a particular group is suited for that group. Nothing worse than a person with athletic ability, or young, or with a lot of potential learning consistantly under someone fat, old and slow moving, stiff, or inflexible. Guess what their technique will look like as well?


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 1, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> physical fitnes is just as important as your mind being fit. Why do some people believe these two are seperate you must have both to be able to be active in martial arts, my opion anyway.


I don't have a problem with concept; it is what we refer to as Ken zen ichinyo. My worry comes from the imbalance you sometimes see within schools where they are concerned overly with fitness.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 1, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Physical fitness will be a natural byproduct of continued martial arts practice. It is only natural.
> However, one thing that irritates me is Instructors who are obviously out of shape teaching younger, physically fit students. Why? Because students will naturally mimic the technique and movements of the person teaching them. If you have a younger student learning Tae Kwon Do from an older, out of shape, slower moving assistant, they will naturally copy that assistant's technique without being aware of it. What you will then have is a group of young, supposedly athletic students moving like old men. I've seen it happen.
> You don't have to necessarily be in prime physical shape to practice or teach. However, an Instructor definitely needs to make sure that the person teaching a particular group is suited for that group. Nothing worse than a person with athletic ability, or young, or with a lot of potential learning consistantly under someone fat, old and slow moving, stiff, or inflexible. Guess what their technique will look like as well?


I have had the privilege of training under a number of older less fit instructors, but no unfit ones. Sometimes they may not move as well as the once did, but if they are good instructors you still gain much. I dont know that you will find any unfit martial artist, maybe ex ones but not ones currently training. As has been said, it is a natural by-product of training.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jan 2, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> 1)Physical fitness will be a natural byproduct of continued martial arts practice. It is only natural.
> 
> 2) a)However, one thing that irritates me is Instructors who are obviously out of shape teaching younger, physically fit students. Why? Because students will naturally mimic the technique and movements of the person teaching them.
> b)If you have a younger student learning Tae Kwon Do from an older, out of shape, slower moving assistant, they will naturally copy that assistant's technique without being aware of it.
> ...


1) i stand by this phrase....i have said it many times myself

2) a)i wouldnt say older instructors obviously out of shape.........while they might not be the shape you want them to be in or appear in great shape...most of these guys could outdo the younger guys in strength and endurance
b) of course they should copy it.......they are obviously instructing for a reason
c) i think the moving like an old man is a superior way.........simply because it goes to show that you dont have to bounce around like a kid thats eaten 20 snickers bars and still get the job done

3) i really dont get what you mean here

4) are you saying fat, old guys have no place in the martial arts?

shawn


----------



## The Kai (Jan 2, 2005)

Fast explosive movements are trained by working in a fast explosive manner.  If your teacher is slow and leaden, you will mimic slow and leaden.

Myself i would always much rather move like a young Muhammadi Ali than a older Muhammd Ali,
Todd


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 2, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Fast explosive movements are trained by working in a fast explosive manner. If your teacher is slow and leaden, you will mimic slow and leaden.
> 
> Myself i would always much rather move like a young Muhammadi Ali than a older Muhammd Ali,
> Todd


There are two type of speed. The fast explosive type, and the free flow of technique type. The fast explosive type is only good while you are young and continue to train for it, but the free flowing type will stay with you even as you get older. I will ask many of my students, especially those that have done other arts to relax and do the techniques slower, but concentrate on connectivity. Many that have done other arts before often try to do the techniques too fast. They then tend to break the technique down into individual sections. This makes the total technique slow, even though the individual punches, kicks, blocks or even stages of throwing are explosive and quick. By slowing down and working on the free flow and connectivity to the next technique the techniques actually appear faster to an opponent, this type of technical action will stay with you for a longer period than pure fitness.


----------



## Adept (Jan 3, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> 1. Fitness is relative. Age, injuries, and body type all come into play when one is talking about physical fitness. That is why _I _ think that fitness requirements should be adjusted somewhat per person. (My opinion differs from my instructor in this)


 See, I'd have to go and disagree with this. I dont want to get into a debate about how important fitness is to a martial art, since it all depends. But I dont think standards of fitness should be relative. 50 push ups is 50 push ups, and everyone does them.

 A good post, and a good thread, just throwing my opinion into the mix.


----------



## Adept (Jan 3, 2005)

An important point to remember. It is possible to be fat, but still be fit and fast. I mean, just look at sumo wrestlers, for example.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 3, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> An important point to remember. It is possible to be fat, but still be fit and fast. I mean, just look at sumo wrestlers, for example.


Very true, at the last International Taikai I attended the study session was at our Hombu in Tadotsu. There was one large Instructor there; he was a student of Matsuda sensei. He had the most powerful punches Ive felt. They were delivered effortlessly and fast. Having a past history of Triathlons and Cycling I have seen a number of what would be called overweight participants. These people may not make it to the elite level, but their cardio fitness is quite high, and would be better than many other sports people. At one Cycling Club I was at we had one guy racing A grade that was what many would call fat. Sometimes overweight is no indication of physical inactivity, but rather genetic predisposition.


----------



## terryl965 (Jan 3, 2005)

Being over wieght does not mean out of shape, football players like lineman are over wieght but are in shape. Physical fitness does not mean lean and trim all the time. I know alot of old timers with a little extra baggage but I would not want to tackle these giants. Most guys in MA tend to add a few pounds over fifty, but they still can move when need be.
Terry Lee Stoker
Old Guy
Twin Dragons MAS


----------



## Tgace (Jan 3, 2005)

True...but those extra pounds put strain on the heart. Theres been studies linking waist size with heart attack.


----------



## terryl965 (Jan 3, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> True...but those extra pounds put strain on the heart. Theres been studies linking waist size with heart attack.


 Yes there have been study's about extra pounds, but the point is extra pounds does not mean out of shape!


----------



## Tgace (Jan 3, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Yes there have been study's about extra pounds, but the point is extra pounds does not mean out of shape!


That depends...in shape enough to defend yourself from a hand to hand attack? Probably. In shape enough to carry a wounded person 500 yds to safety? Maybe, but probably not. In shape enough to win a 5K?... I would want to strive to be "In shape" enough to accomplish the most physical goals. Just general fitness is good enough, if you have the time/dedication to reach elite levels great, but I wouldnt want to be "satisfied" with my condition. There should always be a higher goal.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 3, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> That depends...in shape enough to defend yourself from a hand to hand attack? Probably. In shape enough to carry a wounded person 500 yds to safety? Maybe, but probably not. In shape enough to win a 5K?... I would want to strive to be "In shape" enough to accomplish the most physical goals. Just general fitness is good enough, if you have the time/dedication to reach elite levels great, but I wouldnt want to be "satisfied" with my condition. There should always be a higher goal.



I am with you on this one.  This goal is directly inline of my view of my art as an artist.


----------



## Tgace (Jan 3, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I am with you on this one. This goal is directly inline of my view of my art as an artist.


Every once and a while even you and I can agree on something.  :asian:


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 3, 2005)

We will all have our personnel aspirations regarding fitness, and each will be right for that person; however getting back to the original question regarding the degree of fitness necessary to be considered a martial arts. I believe that the level of fitness needed is not unusually high. Take some of those old Kyodo practitioners; they would not be very fit in the way that we are talking about here, but they are recognised as exceptional martial artists. Another example is Master Hung from Taiwan (the guy featured in the BBC series Way Of The Warrior. He is a world-renowned master of Chinese martial arts, yet he is overweight, but he is considered internationally as an exceptional martial artist.

Moving to the practical side of martial arts. If you are doing Kakutougi (Martial Arts that are sport related) fitness will be a very large part of your training. If you are doing Budo or Bujutsu (martial arts designed for self defence) then there is not the same need. You may feel that personally you would like to very fit, but it is not a necessity to be overly fit. Any conflict you get into will be fairly short and the energy system you use will be anaerobic. Not matter how fit you are you wont be able to sustain this for long, what will be the telling factor in this encounter will be your trained responses, your attitude, and your mental strength.

I have trained under a number of older less fit teachers. Given the choice between them and someone thats main claim to fame is that they can win a 5k race or do a 100 pushups I know who I will choose.


----------



## Tgace (Jan 3, 2005)

I dunno, Ive seen come classical arts where the conditioning programs were brutal compared to what an average US student would tolerate.


----------



## MichiganTKD (Jan 3, 2005)

I do not mean to imply that overweight is necessarily out of shape. However, there is a difference between learning judo from a "rotund" individual, and learning Tae Kwon Do from such an individual.
In judo, having a larger belly is not an impediment to being able to correctly execute judo techniques. And a judo body is famous for being heavier and stockier. In Tae Kwon Do, it definitely becomes a challenge to properly show technique, especially advanced kicking and footwork, when one is overweight or otherwise out of shape. I have seen VERY few heavy or rotund Tae Kwon Do students or black belts. The techniques of the Art just do not lend themselves to that kind of a body. It might very well be different with judo or aikido. What might be considered out of shape for Tae Kwon Do might be ideal or no problem for judo.


----------



## Tgace (Jan 3, 2005)

Good point.

link to MA fitness training...
http://www.veloforce.net/Sportspec.html


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 3, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I dunno, Ive seen come classical arts where the conditioning programs were brutal compared to what an average US student would tolerate.


I couldnt give an opinion on training in the America. My training has been mainly in Australia with some visits to our Hombu in Japan. I trained under a Japanese teacher here for many years, and we regularly have visiting instructors from Hombu here for our study sessions, or just visiting. At one stage I had one 4th dan living with me for six months, while he helped get the Newcastle Branch up and running. So I think I have a reasonably good idea of their training methods. I would have to say they dont resemble anything like the stereotypical image of Japanese classes. I remember my first visit to Hombu, I was shocked, I didnt do one pushup the entire time. This of course may just be the way Shorinji Kempo is taught there. It may be different in some other arts, but thats the thing. Martial Arts are quite varied and work using different philosophies, so making a blanket statement that your have to be fit to be a martial artist is just not correct. From a personnel level I enjoy fitness training, and I enjoy being fit; however I dont see this as necessary for someone to be considered a martial artist.


----------



## Adept (Jan 3, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> That depends...in shape enough to defend yourself from a hand to hand attack? Probably. In shape enough to carry a wounded person 500 yds to safety? Maybe, but probably not. In shape enough to win a 5K?...


 I've seen blokes that were actually obese (according to their BMI) run half and full marathons. Now, I'm pretty fit, and while heavy set, I'm not obese. There is no way I could (currently) run a marathon, or even half a one.


----------



## dmdfromhamilton (Jan 5, 2005)

Some Martial Arts in my humble opinion require little physical fitness like hapkido and are able to be used effectively without more than average physical fitness , but some require a large amount to work effectively like the way some ppl teach karate


----------



## jjmcc (Jan 6, 2005)

They should come hand in hand as a large majority of people who study martial arts actually started to keep fit...


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 6, 2005)

jjmcc said:
			
		

> They should come hand in hand as a large majority of people who study martial arts actually started to keep fit...


Ah yes, but how fit is fit, and what is a Martial Art? Do you need to be fit to be a Martial Artist? If you are training a Kakutougi (a sport based martial art) you will need to fit enough to participate with the rules of the sport. If you are studying a form of Budo (martial art designed for self improvement) then any improvement you make is within its aim. So fitness might be one area you would like to improve, do you need to be fit enough to run a marathon or just increase your health on a whole. If you have started Martial Arts to be fit enough to run a marathon then you have chosen the wrong sport, you should have taken up Marathon running. If you want to become extremely flexible, then Gymnastics may have been a better choice. If you want to develop a strong focus and mental strength, a calm physical action, then kyudo may be the right choice.


----------



## The Kai (Jan 7, 2005)

So you are saying that of you want to run a marathon or get to be extremely flexible you should drop out of the martial arts?  Are'nt self protection arts suppossed to keep you healthy?

Todd


----------



## jjmcc (Jan 7, 2005)

What i am trying to say is that a large majority of people go to martial arts primerily to keep fit like a lot of people go to the gym to keep fit maybe to be a bit different from the norm maybe the gym never worked for them.  In the end not everyone looks at martial arts the same way as us on mtk but as a way to keep fit im not saying that i agree with this but in the end that is the way it is!!:supcool:


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 7, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> So you are saying that of you want to run a marathon or get to be extremely flexible you should drop out of the martial arts? Are'nt self protection arts suppossed to keep you healthy?
> 
> Todd


I certainly agree that Martial Arts will keep you healthy. What Im trying to point out is that Martial Arts are a big broad term encompassing three different primary functions; sport, fighting ability, and character development. Now it is possible to cover any or all of these areas, but most arts will focus on one area more than another. Fitness is a rather broad term that needs defining as it can mean different things to different people. Now if your goal, or fitness paradigm is that of running marathons, then you should be doing training more suited to this. This doesnt mean that you should stop Martial Arts; it could have benefits like mental strength.

The original question asked was, is it necessary to be fit to be a Martial Artist. I am trying to point out that within the fitness paradigm being discussed many great Martial Artists would be precluded from being a Martial Artist. This means in my opinion that the answer to the question must be no.


----------



## The Kai (Jan 7, 2005)

Basically this is my viewpoint, all Martial Arts falls under the sports heading!!  Weather you compete or not.  Any sport will benefit from being in shape.  If you are working up a sweat it is sport training.  A person does'nt have to be in shape(Which is a rather cloudy term), but should be working on it.  If you want to practice for years and years please avail yourself to the latest research in sport training!

Todd


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 7, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Basically this is my viewpoint, all Martial Arts falls under the sports heading!! Weather you compete or not. Any sport will benefit from being in shape. If you are working up a sweat it is sport training. A person does'nt have to be in shape(Which is a rather cloudy term), but should be working on it. If you want to practice for years and years please avail yourself to the latest research in sport training!
> 
> Todd


Im pretty familiar with the latest sports training, and despite some spinal injuries a few years ago Im reasonably fit. Not as much as I was mid nineties when I was doing Triathlons, Cycling and working in the Defence Force (they were great, lots of time to train). Do I consider it necessary to be fit in the way being discussed in this thread to be a Martial Artist? No. All that is required is that you are active in your studies and training. Do I think that you need to be fit in the way being discussed in this thread to be a great teacher and Martial Artist? No, all that is needed is great teaching skills and great technical understanding and skill. Would you consider someone training in Kyudo to be a Martial Artist, after all their training is not very active? I would, it is after all recognised as one of the cultural Martial Arts of Japan by their government and a member of the Budokan. And just quietly, I would like to be around when someone mentioned that it was a sport that they were doing, they had better be able to run faster than flying arrows.



I guess this is where you and I differ. I dont consider the Martial Art I do as a sport, and neither does our Hombu. This in fact is also true of many Japanese arts. It is why they class them in the three categories of Budo, Bujutsu, and Kakutougi. Because we lump everything together under the one banner of Martial Arts it causes us to perceive them differently than those in the east.



Would I recommend training in Martial Arts for your health? Yes, but if someone asked me if it would make them fit I would want to know their definition of fitness and how fit they were expecting to become.


----------



## The Kai (Jan 7, 2005)

I understand and agree with the three differnet types of arts practiced, However it is all movement?  It is the mindset that is the begining of the differences, not that you are moving your body, perfecting form or effecting (controlling) your enviroment

Todd


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 7, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I understand and agree with the three differnet types of arts practiced, However it is all movement? It is the mindset that is the begining of the differences, not that you are moving your body, perfecting form or effecting (controlling) your enviroment
> 
> Todd


Yes indeed, but the fitness requirements vary greatly. Some will spend a lot of time on cardio work; others may train for strength and or power, while others while have very limited amounts of physical activity. They all have their benefits in helping people live a healthy life style. In the context of the fitness being described earlier in the thread there would be a number of arts and great teachers that would not make it into the category of Martial Artist.


----------



## The Kai (Jan 8, 2005)

Are my eyes getting bad or is this some Budo Trick?.  Martial arts shouls encourage a active heathy lifestyle, unless you are invovled in a  art were you mediate and just think about moving, then you are not a athelete
Todd


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 8, 2005)

Todd, sorry if I appear pedantic. Earlier in the thread there was talk about running 5 kilometers or carrying someone 500 meters, or even just being overweight as being the defining of the fitness that was needed to be a martial artist. There are many healthy people that cant do these things. The mention of overweight being a precluder would have eliminated most of the Sumotori. I doubt if many of the great Aikido teachers could carry someone 500 meters, they just arent concerned with physical power. Have you ever watched Kyudoka train or compete? Most people would develop more physical power, and cardio capacity from their day-to-day activities.

If all you need to do to be an athlete is move then we all are athletes, does this mean you would consider your job a sport? Oops, bad question, you probably teach martial arts professionally. Anyway I hope you understand my point. Some things are considered more important than to be thought of as a mere sport. There are a number of forms of budo that would find being called a sport, and themselves an athlete playing a sport very offensive.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 8, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Todd, sorry if I appear pedantic. Earlier in the thread there was talk about running 5 kilometers or carrying someone 500 meters, or even just being overweight as being the defining of the fitness that was needed to be a martial artist. There are many healthy people that cant do these things. The mention of overweight being a precluder would have eliminated most of the Sumotori. I doubt if many of the great Aikido teachers could carry someone 500 meters, they just arent concerned with physical power. Have you ever watched Kyudoka train or compete? Most people would develop more physical power, and cardio capacity from their day-to-day activities.
> 
> If all you need to do to be an athlete is move then we all are athletes, does this mean you would consider your job a sport? Oops, bad question, you probably teach martial arts professionally. Anyway I hope you understand my point. Some things are considered more important than to be thought of as a mere sport. There are a number of forms of budo that would find being called a sport, and themselves an athlete playing a sport very offensive.



In my opinion, physical fitness encompasses the following; cardio, strength, flexability, hand/eye coordination, and muscle/body control.  All of these are required in some way, shape, or form in any martial art that one practices.  There are different requirements in each catagory for different arts.

Kyudo, for instance, is a beautiful art that requires superb hand/eye coordination, therefore doing things to improve that fitness catagory is only going to improve the art.  This is the same for any art.  Building the fitness skills for the fitness requirements of your art is going to make you a better artist.

The difference is obvious.  As a physically fit second dan in Tang Soo Do I am able to outperform others that are not as physically fit.  When I test for my third dan, that isn't going to change.  If I was a physically fit eight dan, I _still _ could outperform a less physically fit peer.

Therefore, as an artist, I see physical fitness as an _integral _ part of my art...a _requirement _ for my art.

upnorthkyosa

PS - I do not, however, think that you have to be physically fit in order to _be _ a martial artist.


----------



## Tgace (Jan 8, 2005)

Im going to present a theory about the fitness/martial art relationship... Many of the martial arts (like the "Do" arts: kendo, kyudo, etc.) are "arts" evolved from "combat" techniques. The Samurai who used the sword and bow in combat was a different animal from the practicioner who trains with those weapons today. Much like a person that attends one of the high speed shooting schools and becomes an expert pistol shot. Say that person becomes a better shot than a Special Forces operator. Theres a world of difference between a civillian handgun expert and a Delta Operator. Somehow I dont think that the kendo expert is likely to be able to function like a Samurai (given some Hollywood time travel scenario  ), or the Pistolero run a hostage rescue.

Bringing this around to the topic at hand, yes you dont need to be "in shape" to be a martial artist, but it all depends on your mindset and what you envision your needs to be. Fitness may not be necessary to defend yourself, but I submit that martial arts alone arent enough to "defend yourself" either. Martial Arts techniques are just tools, along with many other skills like firearms, first aid, plain avoidance and awareness, driving skills, law etc. If the goal is just plain "art" fitness may not be "necessary". If you envision it as something more, fitness should be one of the components IMHO.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 8, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> If the goal is just plain "art" fitness may not be "necessary". If you envision it as something more, fitness should be one of the components IMHO.



Good post...however

Fitness may not be _necessary_, but it surely can "enhance" ones martial artistic expression.  Personally, I would feel like a sculptor using play-doe without the fitness component to my art.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 9, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> In my opinion, physical fitness encompasses the following; cardio, strength, flexability, hand/eye coordination, and muscle/body control. All of these are required in some way, shape, or form in any martial art that one practices. There are different requirements in each catagory for different arts.
> 
> Kyudo, for instance, is a beautiful art that requires superb hand/eye coordination, therefore doing things to improve that fitness catagory is only going to improve the art. This is the same for any art. Building the fitness skills for the fitness requirements of your art is going to make you a better artist.
> 
> ...


I do believe we have an agreement.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 9, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Good post...however
> 
> Fitness may not be _necessary_, but it surely can "enhance" ones martial artistic expression. Personally, I would feel like a sculptor using play-doe without the fitness component to my art.


Yes indeed, fitness is one aspect that can improve your performance. And the fitness requirements will be quite divers. In some arts training to be that supreme athlete will leave you without the time necessary to practice the techniques correctly. If you studied Aikido for instance, your level of fitness does not need to be as high as say a boxer. What will be important is that you have developed very good skills at reading the intent of your attacker, feeling their balance, controlling their balance, using the technique and understanding the strategy of the defence. Now this could be argued to be a form of fitness. This is why I said earlier that if someone came to me to learn a martial art for fitness, I would want to know what they expected to gain from it. In some cases you will have to say no, this art will not make you fit in the way you would like.


----------



## Tgace (Jan 9, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Good post...however
> 
> Fitness may not be _necessary_, but it surely can "enhance" ones martial artistic expression. Personally, I would feel like a sculptor using play-doe without the fitness component to my art.


Oh yeah absolutely. If you are interested in the "art" side too, I would think that presenting a fit and aesthetic appereance would be a goal as well no??


----------



## ghostdog2 (Jan 10, 2005)

I've been reading these posts and just about every one says something worthwhile. 
Would there be a distinction between some of the other arts and, say, grappling or BJJ or boxing? A reasonable degree of fitness seems to be required in these disciplines or the student won't last long enough in practice or drills to master the technique. At least, that's been my experience.
Can someone who appears fat and out of shape still fight? Ask George Foreman. Better yet, ask the guys who fought him.


----------



## The Kai (Jan 11, 2005)

George Foreman might have been "fat", but out of shape?   The guy ran behind a Pick up truck with a Heavybag mounted on the tailgate-so he could punch and run at the same time!!  Plus a old boxing belief was to have a little "cushion" on you.  quite interestingly enough they found that gladitors were not ripped buff hardbodies, seems you would rather have the knife blade cut fat rather than muscle!
todd


----------



## Simon Curran (Jan 11, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> George Foreman might have been "fat", but out of shape? The guy ran behind a Pick up truck with a Heavybag mounted on the tailgate-so he could punch and run at the same time!! Plus a old boxing belief was to have a little "cushion" on you. quite interestingly enough they found that gladitors were not ripped buff hardbodies, seems you would rather have the knife blade cut fat rather than muscle!
> todd


Seems to make sense to me, sub-cutaneous fat doesn't impede physical structure when cut quite as much as muscle does...
And by the way, I know of people who definately carry a spare michelin or two, but can still soak up any amount of thumping to the mid-section...


----------



## scfgabe (Jan 11, 2005)

You can _do_ Martial Arts, but you won't _master_ your Marial Art if you are in poor physical condition.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jan 11, 2005)

scfgabe said:
			
		

> You can _do_ Martial Arts, but you won't _master_ your Marial Art if you are in poor physical condition.


once again......let's get a definition of good physical condition.

i am also of the belief that martial arts are not sports. not withstanding the fact that there are martial sports......like judo,  tae kwon do,  kendo.
i dont think it was the intent of the founders of the martial ryu's or styles to develop athletes. i am the furthest thing from an athlete, but that doesnt mean that my art suffers because of it. 

shawn


----------



## Tgace (Jan 11, 2005)

I think the founders were (originally and in the Budo arts) striving to train warriors in martial skills. I would think physical condition was a given.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 11, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I think the founders were (originally and in the Budo arts) striving to train warriors in martial skills. I would think physical condition was a given.


I think you may be confusing budo with Bujutsu. Budo, while training in self defence, is also a form of Gyo, or spiritual development. Budo literally means the path to ending conflict. Bu means to stop two spears, while do means way or path. There is no concern for the development of a warrior, just self defence and self development.



As has been mentioned ideas of fitness may vary and different arts place more or less emphasis on physical attributes. Some arts you would be lucky to break into a sweat.


----------



## Tgace (Jan 12, 2005)

Good points..nothing I can disagree with there.


----------



## The Kai (Jan 12, 2005)

Unless your martial arts involves sitting in a meditation posture and nothing else, there is a element of sport, or atheletism to it!  Being in shape helps.  I think that a certain physicallness (I not saying ripped and tipped) is expected.

Kyudo was thrown out as a example-well target shooting is a olympic sport?  And there is even less movement in shooting then archery(actually for that matter achery itself is an olympic sport).  Physically you are doing a sport, the applications and intensity are determined by your mind set.
Todd


----------



## 7starmantis (Jan 12, 2005)

I haven't read this entire thread, but alot of people seem to be saying self defense and being in shape are seperate. That there are sports reasons to be in shape, but then self defense doesn't require that. The truth is that to defend yourself you are going to have to be in shape. Sure there are differing degrees of being in shape, but there are also differing degrees of skill and abilities. I would think being more able to defend yoruself would also be related to being in better shape. 

7sm


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 12, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I haven't read this entire thread, but alot of people seem to be saying self defense and being in shape are seperate. That there are sports reasons to be in shape, but then self defense doesn't require that. The truth is that to defend yourself you are going to have to be in shape. Sure there are differing degrees of being in shape, but there are also differing degrees of skill and abilities. I would think being more able to defend yoruself would also be related to being in better shape.
> 
> 7sm


Not necessarily, some arts like Aikido, would suffer from someone doing lots of physical fitness training. They tend to make you more reliant on physical strength. Aikido, and indeed our Juho require a much more subtle skill set. You need to be able to feel the intent of the attacker, you need to be able to feel his balance and you need the knack of applying the technique.



Even in Goho there is still some elements to this. I have seen Aosaka sensei, who I believe is around mid 50s completely dominate Busen students in randori. Now these guys are in there mid 20s, they have been living and training at our Hombu in Tadotsu for three years, training every day, eight hours a day, they are very good. Aosaka can do this not because his is fitter than them, but because he knows what they are going to do, sometimes before they even do it, and can counter effortlessly. His techniques are fast, but not because he is fit and fast, but because he can read you and his counters catch you out. This makes him appear very fast.



Now you could argue that this is a form of fitness, and to some extent it is, but it is not the fitness that you are talking about, and you wont get it from fitness training.



If you are going to say that because you are moving it is fitness, and therefore a form of sport, then everything we do is a form of sport and fitness training.


----------



## Tgace (Jan 12, 2005)

The benefits of being physically fit far outweigh the danger of "hurting your Aikido technique" IMHO.

This discussion can run the risk of appearing to be an excuse or justification for poor physical condition if taken to the extreme (not that anybody here is doing that). A "I may be fat but I can still kick your butt" thing. Exercise because its good for your health, it is good for your self esteem and it helps any physical performance.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 12, 2005)

We should also be realistic. As Ive said before, I enjoy being fit and advocate a healthy lifestyle. But this isnt what we are discussing. We are discussing the need to be fit to be a martial artist. When we view the spectrum of martial arts it is clear that the needs vary greatly depending on the type studied. It is also clear (at least for me) that there are some great martial artists out there that would only be considered of average fitness, I have trained under a number of them in Japan.

From a self-defence issue we need to be clear on our understanding of the different energy systems of the body, and be realistic about the systems used. You will not be defending yourself at an aerobic level, it will be anaerobic. No matter how fit you are you wont last long. What will cause you to succeed or not will be your application of technique. With some arts you will need to strong to apply the technique other arts it a matter of skill.


----------



## 7starmantis (Jan 12, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Not necessarily, some arts like Aikido, would suffer from someone doing lots of physical fitness training. They tend to make you more reliant on physical strength. Aikido, and indeed our Juho require a much more subtle skill set. You need to be able to feel the intent of the attacker, you need to be able to feel his balance and you need the knack of applying the technique.


 You could add 7* mantis kung fu to that list, or any variety of Taiji, but your connection between lots of physical fitness training and the suffering of technique is weak at best. Your technique doesn't suffer from mere physical fitness training unless you are neglecting the other parts of your training. If you spend time developing feel and learning to steal your opponents center, your physical fitness training doesn't hinder that, it only makes it better. To yield and move, and make your body do certain things is relative to your physical fitness. Thus being in better physical "shape" while "feel" being equal gives you the advantage. 
 


			
				Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> From a self-defence issue we need to be clear on our understanding of the different energy systems of the body, and be realistic about the systems used. You will not be defending yourself at an aerobic level, it will be anaerobic. No matter how fit you are you wont last long. What will cause you to succeed or not will be your application of technique. With some arts you will need to strong to apply the technique other arts it a matter of skill.


 You make good points, but you are leaving some out. How long you "last" is most deffinitely related to your physical fitness. We actually train hard to be able to "outlast" others. Your statement about no matter your fitness you wont last long, is incorrect. Your fitness determines how long you last. Strength is not neccessarily what we are talking about either. Application of technique only goes smoother and quicker with better physical fitness. One does not detriment the other.

  7sm


----------



## terryl965 (Jan 13, 2005)

Physical fitness does not mean how long you can last in a stituation, endurance and preservation makes you last longer and good oh will power. I have seen alot of physical fit guy's and girl's that could not last a minute in a match, let alone in a real fight. Please, I believe in Physical fitness but do not compare P.F. to being able to handle yourself, the two are totally different. Not trying to ruffle feathers but some people think because they are P.F. they can take on the world a glass jaw is a glass jar no-matter how fit you are.

Terry Lee Stoker 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




Twin-Dragons


----------



## Tgace (Jan 13, 2005)

Yes, but where does "endurance" come from? Theres the mental aspect, I agree. But the brain cant write checks the body cant cash. If you dont end it in the first few seconds (which can happen) you better be as fit as your lifestyle allows....I dont think anybody is saying "if you dont jog, lift weights and workout daily you are going to loose". I think theyre saying fitness  could be the advantage that makes the difference, dont minimize or ignore it.


----------



## 7starmantis (Jan 13, 2005)

Tgace, right.

 Terry, your not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not talking about not getting knocked out because your more physically fit (which that can help) but being able to fight longer. Endurance like Tgace said. You *can* train your endurance to be at a higher level than others. If the fight doesn't end in the first few seconds (which is really your goal) then your endurance is most deffinitely going to play a major role.

 7sm


----------



## The Kai (Jan 13, 2005)

What about preventing injury??


If you don't think the founders of the arts were concerned with fitness, read the stories of the swordmans that ran thru snowdrift to build up there leg strenght. the founder of Aikido was reportly a strong young man, Judaka that trained hard for hours.  If your life depended on your sword arm would not it be strong and skilled?
IMHO sometimes we see the end result of a lifetime of hard training and forget the process of a lifetime of hard training.  Most of the examples of "effortless older practioners" were guys that trained hard when they were young!

Is not Budo about improving yourself??  Not just mentally but physically?
Besides mindset, what differs Budo from sport?  From competition?
Todd


----------



## terryl965 (Jan 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Yes, but where does "endurance" come from? Theres the mental aspect, I agree. But the brain cant write checks the body cant cash. If you dont end it in the first few seconds (which can happen) you better be as fit as your lifestyle allows....I dont think anybody is saying "if you dont jog, lift weights and workout daily you are going to loose". I think theyre saying fitness could be the advantage that makes the difference, dont minimize or ignore it.


Yes I totally agree with you and I believe in P.F. all I'm saying is P.F. is not the means to the end result,


----------



## Danjo (Jan 13, 2005)

I aspire to be in the same shape as other martial arts greats.


----------



## 7starmantis (Jan 13, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Yes I totally agree with you and I believe in P.F. all I'm saying is P.F. is not the means to the end result,


  Actually I think it is, at least *one* of the means to the end result. I dont think there is simply one thing that is the means to the end result, it is a combination of things that include physical fitness training.

  JHMO,
   7sm


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 13, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> You could add 7* mantis kung fu to that list, or any variety of Taiji, but your connection between lots of physical fitness training and the suffering of technique is weak at best. Your technique doesn't suffer from mere physical fitness training unless you are neglecting the other parts of your training. If you spend time developing feel and learning to steal your opponents center, your physical fitness training doesn't hinder that, it only makes it better. To yield and move, and make your body do certain things is relative to your physical fitness. Thus being in better physical "shape" while "feel" being equal gives you the advantage.
> [/color]
> You make good points, but you are leaving some out. How long you "last" is most deffinitely related to your physical fitness. We actually train hard to be able to "outlast" others. Your statement about no matter your fitness you wont last long, is incorrect. Your fitness determines how long you last. Strength is not neccessarily what we are talking about either. Application of technique only goes smoother and quicker with better physical fitness. One does not detriment the other.
> 
> 7sm


You will find that many of the great masters of the internal arts express this concern with overly physical training. It may not be your belief, but I have seen a number of people suffer because of it.



Yes you can lift your aerobic threshold, and in some cases quite high. I have already mentioned a particular world class cyclists data on his heart rate over a 20 kilometre time trial, he was staying over 200 bpm the whole way. This would kill many other athletes. This is still different to a self-defence issue, while he could pace himself and sit at his aerobic threshold someone in a real defensive position will not. As for the length of time in operation within the anaerobic energy system I think you will find that it wont be a large difference between an elite sprint athlete or an average athlete, or person. The telling difference is in recovery time. This is why I say that the technique and application will be the main factor.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 13, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> What about preventing injury??
> 
> 
> If you don't think the founders of the arts were concerned with fitness, read the stories of the swordmans that ran thru snowdrift to build up there leg strenght. the founder of Aikido was reportly a strong young man, Judaka that trained hard for hours. If your life depended on your sword arm would not it be strong and skilled?
> ...


Some good points. Some of these arts do require great fitness. Judo, being a sport does require a high fitness level, in fact even as an art it requires quite a lot of strength and fitness. Ueshiba was in fact a very weak and sickly youth. It was his training in martial arts that gave him his strength; however this is a little different when considering Aikido. His earlier arts were all battlefield arts and quite physical. His creation of Aikido was quite different to these. Even when he was old and not so fit he could withstand the force of powerful men, this wasnt to do with his fitness but rather his technical knowledge of human dynamics.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 13, 2005)

Sorry I forgot to answer your last couple off questions.

Budo is about developing strong spirts and character development. In Shorinji Kempo we use the phrase Ken Zen ichinyo. This means that the mind and body should be developed with equal consideration. Health is an offshoot of the training, but fitness levels will vary greatly depending on what you are studying. Im only saying it is not necessary to be more than of average fitness to be considered a martial artist, as the arts and there requirements vary so much.

On Budo. Budo is considered a very serious thing, it should not be thought of as lightly as playing a sport. Indeed many Budoka in Japan would be very offended to be described that way. Budo is not about competing, winning, or losing, even in a real fight. It is putting in your best effort, applying yourself to the full and examining yourself honestly and taking steps to improve yourself. Its not about winning, but rather not losing and not giving up.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 13, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I haven't read this entire thread, but alot of people seem to be saying self defense and being in shape are seperate. That there are sports reasons to be in shape, but then self defense doesn't require that. The truth is that to defend yourself you are going to have to be in shape. Sure there are differing degrees of being in shape, but there are also differing degrees of skill and abilities. I would think being more able to defend yoruself would also be related to being in better shape.
> 
> 7sm


The question originally asked was it necessary to be fit to be called a martial artist. Now fitness hasnt been defined, but in the context of fitness within this discussion it is clearly not necessary to be a martial artist.



Take a step back and examine the range of martial arts and their fitness levels needed, they are quite diverse. They range from almost sedentary to highly physical. Take a look at some of the greatest exponents of martial arts and honestly look at their fitness. I know of and trained under a number from Japan that could be described as of average fitness, but how I wish I had their skills and abilities, every thing they do is just effortless. Now these guys would be considered to be some of the best martial artists in Japan. They are definitely martial artist, yet they would not fit the model of fitness within this thread.



I think the differing view points on fitness are a result of the different paradigms of martial arts within the west and east. The west lumps all martial arts together as martial arts, and has a strong sporting element. In Japan (I reference Japan because it Im familiar with it, and not other eastern countries) they break them down. They call sporting arts Kakutougi, Battle field arts Bujutsu, and arts that are designed for self-defence and personnel development as Budo. They are very clearly separated by their intent.


----------



## 7starmantis (Jan 13, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> You will find that many of the great masters of the internal arts express this concern with overly physical training. It may not be your belief, but I have seen a number of people suffer because of it.


 Your idea of masters and mine may vary quite a bit. I've never heard anyone of great skill express concern over physical fitness. In fact, quite the opposite, most will tell you that their level of skill could be quite higher if they had a much higher level of physical fitness. And I have been in contact with many "internal" martial artis "masters". I think the problem we are having is that your talking about focusing solely on fitness, while I am speaking of fitness being only one part to your training. 



			
				Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> As for the length of time in operation within the anaerobic energy system I think you will find that it wont be a large difference between an elite sprint athlete or an average athlete, or person. The telling difference is in recovery time. This is why I say that the technique and application will be the main factor.


 That may be true, but I'm not referring to an elite sprint athlete, but someone who actively trains in this type of fitness. This includes adrenaline dump, anaerobic exercise, and burst training. Recovery time can be increased by training. I agree that your skill is the main factor, but if you are up against someone of good skill, your endurance and "recovery time" will most deffinitely be a huge factor. One of our students is an agent with the FBI and they actually teach agents to simply avoid and withdraw from an initial attack for only 30 seconds when the attacker is worn out and out of "fuel". While that may not be 100% it is the norm in their line of work. Once someone is tired or worn out, skill becomes much less of a factor.




			
				Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> The question originally asked was it necessary to be fit to be called a martial artist. Now fitness hasnt been defined, but in the context of fitness within this discussion it is clearly not necessary to be a martial artist.


 

Its not neccessary to have talent to be a painter either, but the problem comes when we define what type of martial artist we want to be. 




			
				Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Take a step back and examine the range of martial arts and their fitness levels needed, they are quite diverse. They range from almost sedentary to highly physical. Take a look at some of the greatest exponents of martial arts and honestly look at their fitness. I know of and trained under a number from Japan that could be described as of average fitness, but how I wish I had their skills and abilities, every thing they do is just effortless. Now these guys would be considered to be some of the best martial artists in Japan. They are definitely martial artist, yet they would not fit the model of fitness within this thread.


 

I simply dont agree. I know of and have trained under some very highly skilled CMAist who were also of what would be called average, or even below average fitness. They were effortless and amazing, but all of them 100% said that being in better physical condition or shape would only increase their abilities. Its ridiculous to think that being in better shape or fitness will hinder your skill, only if you ignore your skill while trying to get better fitness. If both progress at the same speed, your not hindering your skill. Most of these "out of shape" martial artist were once in great shape, and will tell you that fitness only increases the ability and effectivness of skill. 


7sm


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 13, 2005)

7sm,

I think maybe I need to clear something up. I am not saying fitness is not of benefit, it is. What Im trying to say it is; 

1. It is not necessary to be fit to be a martial artist. Your ability may be better if you are fitter, but non-the less you still are a martial artist. This was the original question.

2. Fitness types and levels vary greatly and what one person may describe as fit another may be looking for different attributes. I used the Aikido example because I have heard teachers of this art not recommend weight training, as people tend to get more concerned with physical strength and not technique. I have trained with some very small Japanese kenshi. There techniques are great because they lacked the strength to make a bad technique work. Im sure if I asked some of our sensei if they thought they would be better if they were fitter, a number would say yes. You would then have to think, well why arent you out there running around the block. The reason maybe that their idea of fitness is different yours and in fact they are working on there fitness doing Tai Chi or something.

Out of interest do you remember the Ali Forman fight in Africa? Ali was nowhere near as fit as Forman, but despite it being a sporting match and dependent heavily on cardio fitness and power he beat Forman. Why, because of his technique and application (application also refers to strategy, the way you apply your technique) Ali used your FBI strategy with Forman, all the time talking to him and making him mad so he didnt realise what Ali was up to.

Unlike the FBI, I doubt that I will have much warning of conflict (if I did I wouldnt be having the conflict). I will probably be facing more than one opponent, and I doubt that I will have terribly much control over the situation. Thanks for helping in an interesting discussion.


----------



## dubljay (Jan 14, 2005)

One of Bruce Lee's more noted sayings was: Martial arts is expressing oneself using the human body.  (or something remotely close).

 In this sense martial arts regardless of style or application is defined on an individual basis.  Only the person practicing it can define what it means to them.  Whether or not that includes being physically fit or not is a personal matter.  I would also like to point out I have seen many martial artists that are physically handicapped yet still practice.  


 However with martial arts applied to self defense I feel that being physically fit is a distinct advantage.  Part of physical training of any kind is learning your limits and learning to pace yourself.  Should an engagement last for an extended period of time, know how to pace yourself will help you save energy.  This is in addition to having more endurance, speed, and strength.  I know of one individual that was well trained in martial arts, but did not maintain their physical fitness, he was in an altercation with an untrained yet very athletic person.  He lost simply because he was no match athletically.


 -Josh-


----------



## 7starmantis (Jan 14, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> 1. It is not necessary to be fit to be a martial artist. Your ability may be better if you are fitter, but non-the less you still are a martial artist. This was the original question.


 I just dont agree with you. I guess it depends on your definition of a martial artist. Like I said before, you dont have to be talented or be any good to be a painter, but isn't a true artist someone with talent and passion for painting? It just simply depends on how you define the words martial artist. I guess your right, in order to become a member of a martial arts school you do not need to be fit. Without defining what we are talking about as a martial artist, we wont really go further with the discussion.

  7sm


----------



## TonyM. (Jan 14, 2005)

First speed, then power, then gong.


----------



## Danjo (Jan 14, 2005)

TonyM. said:
			
		

> First speed, then power, then gong.


Then it's on like Donkey Kong!!!


----------



## loki09789 (Jan 14, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I just dont agree with you. I guess it depends on your definition of a martial artist. Like I said before, you dont have to be talented or be any good to be a painter, but isn't a true artist someone with talent and passion for painting? It just simply depends on how you define the words martial artist. I guess your right, in order to become a member of a martial arts school you do not need to be fit. Without defining what we are talking about as a martial artist, we wont really go further with the discussion.
> 
> 7sm


You make a good point 7sm, how are people defining 'fit' and 'unfit' in relations to a martial artist?

I would say that if you can't sustain a regular class workout, fatigue puts you at risk of learning bad habits, injury and can be an indicator that you won't have what it takes to take the physiological stress of fight or flight AND be able to perform repeatedly if a fight/self defense situation extends beyond 30 seconds.

Fitness (cardiovascular, muscular, coordination - quickness and agility, balance) all are requirements for high level performance/accomplishment in martial arts.

Consider the fitness focus of our military forces today and contact sports athletes (including football, hockey, boxing, UFC type fighting...).

I would say being able to perform at an above average level the good old Presidential fitness test events from high school would be a good baseline to start from when you are considering fitness for a martial artist.  From there, style and training goal requirments will dictate what and how high the standards should be.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 14, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> You make a good point 7sm, how are people defining 'fit' and 'unfit' in relations to a martial artist?
> 
> I would say that if you can't sustain a regular class workout, fatigue puts you at risk of learning bad habits, injury and can be an indicator that you won't have what it takes to take the physiological stress of fight or flight AND be able to perform repeatedly if a fight/self defense situation extends beyond 30 seconds.


 Lets work on this as the defenition then. Would you consider a Sumotori a martial artist if he could not last through a boxing class. Clearly he is not a boxer, but is he still a martial artist?



> Fitness (cardiovascular, muscular, coordination - quickness and agility, balance) all are requirements for high level performance/accomplishment in martial arts..


 Agreed, but the different degrees and focus on these aspects vary greatly within martial arts.



> Consider the fitness focus of our military forces today and contact sports athletes (including football, hockey, boxing, UFC type fighting...)..


 Why leave out forms of Budo, you have only included forms of Bujutsu and Kakutougi. All of which I'm quite happy to accept require high levels of fitness.



> I would say being able to perform at an above average level the good old Presidential fitness test events from high school would be a good baseline to start from when you are considering fitness for a martial artist. From there, style and training goal requirments will dictate what and how high the standards should be.


 Sorry I'm unfamiliar with those. We have a sensei named Shigeru Uchiyama He has been awarded the Order of the Sacred Treasure, by the Japanese Government. He is an Executive board member of the Nippon Budokan, The Executive Director of the Japan Martial Arts Council, and an Executive Board Member of Shorinji Kempo. For some reason I don't think this 88 year old Budoka will pass your High School Fitness test. Does this mean he is not a Martial Artist?


----------



## Tgace (Jan 14, 2005)

Would you say he's more fit than the average 88 yo ?


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 14, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I just dont agree with you. I guess it depends on your definition of a martial artist. Like I said before, you dont have to be talented or be any good to be a painter, but isn't a true artist someone with talent and passion for painting? It just simply depends on how you define the words martial artist. I guess your right, in order to become a member of a martial arts school you do not need to be fit. Without defining what we are talking about as a martial artist, we wont really go further with the discussion.
> 
> 7sm


I'm quite happy to accept that given the broad definitions of this discussion that we can all be right. It is what I have been saying all the time in relation to question. Using Internationally recognised Martial Arts as an example, and the broad spectrum of fitness I can only conclude it is not necessary. If you were to pick a particular art form, and comment about the required fitness for it, then the answer to the question may go the other way.



With regards to the painter analogy. Many people educated in art recognise a number of artist as being great. Yet show their paintings to the average person and you get a much different opinion of their artistry.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 14, 2005)

I agreed to an earlier post regarding Martial Arts all claiming to increase the level of fitness of their practitioners. While reading something written by Ellis Admur of www.ellisamdur.com . An Internationally accredited author on martial arts, and a talented martial artist with a substantial body of experience. Apparently there is an exception to this presumption. Aikido make no claims of physical development, their aim is purely spiritual.

I get the feeling, and I may be wrong. That many people view martial arts as fighting methods, and indeed this can be the case. It should also be noted that under that broad umbrella term we use there are arts that are less concerned with fighting and more concerned with spirituality and personal development. Some of these arts may well fall outside your personal definition of Martial Arts, but that doesnt change the fact that they are considered martial arts Internationally by experts and the general public.


----------



## dubljay (Jan 15, 2005)

Colin, I tried to make the distinction in my earlier post, and I agree that martial arts includes more than combative/self defense applications, that have no reflection upon phyiscal fitness.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 15, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Would you say he's more fit than the average 88 yo ?


I dont know he looks like your average 88 year old. Does it matter; I would still call him a martial artist if he were on his deathbed. His level of fitness doesnt have much bearing on this. He may or may not be a better martial artist if he were fitter, it will depend on what framework you use to measure this, but there is no question as to wether or not he is a martial artist.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 15, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> Colin, I tried to make the distinction in my earlier post, and I agree that martial arts includes more than combative/self defense applications, that have no reflection upon phyiscal fitness.


I reread your earlier post. I think we share a similar view in relation to the original question. From the self-defence angle, Im not totally sure that I will be able to pace myself in a real conflict, but if I could better fitness would be of benefit, but this is also true of technique to a greater or lesser degree depending on the style.


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 15, 2005)

As part of my job I am required to be a licensed Fitness Trainer, of which I have several qualifications. Therefore I have a bit of knowledge on the subject of fitness, what it is and how to become fit.

   Becoming fit is a by product of doing martial arts and in my opinion shouldnt really be the goal. If someones goal is to do martial arts to become fit I can suggest several other more effective methods to accomplish that goal. 

   What defines fitness? Most Fitness professional people will tell you the following. 

   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Strength = muscle

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Flexibility 

   3)[font=&quot]      [/font]Body composition = how much or how little lard you are lugging around

   4)[font=&quot]      [/font]Endurance = cardio strength



   However, doing any exercise consistently will give you some degree of fitness no matter what it might be. 





			
				Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Sorry I'm unfamiliar with those. We have a sensei named Shigeru Uchiyama He has been awarded the Order of the Sacred Treasure, by the Japanese Government. He is an Executive board member of the Nippon Budokan, The Executive Director of the Japan Martial Arts Council, and an Executive Board Member of Shorinji Kempo. For some reason I don't think this 88 year old Budoka will pass your High School Fitness test. Does this mean he is not a Martial Artist?



   My guess is that gentleman probably reached 88 years old as a result of many years of training consistently. Uehara Seikichi lived to be over 100 years old and trained almost daily up until he died. I saw a photo of him when he was about 30 yrs. Old and he look like a Okinawan Arnie. He could crush an apple just by giving it a squeeze with 3 fingers. I tried it.its not easy.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 16, 2005)

Hi Robert,

It may very well be why he is still alive. I used him as an example because as much as I respect him and would like to receive instruction from him, I somehow doubted that he would pass the high school fitness test that was offered as a minimum standard of fitness to be a martial artist.

I think I have seen pictures of the sensei you mentioned. I havent tried crushing an apple with three fingers, but I think it would be difficult. Would you agree that Karate could rely a lot on power? While Aikido would rely much more on tactile perception, and that the fitness requirements for each of these arts would be very different? If this is the case, then designating a minimum standard of fitness to the title of martial artist is going to be a somewhat challenging task. Personally, as much as enjoy fitness training, I dont think it is relevant to you being considered a martial artist or not.

Ive found fitness tests to be overrated in their ability to test for suitability of various tasks. Until 2001 I was in our defence force. I suffered two bad spinal injuries within 12 months of each other, one requiring surgery. I ended up being medically discharged as I was no longer deployable and my condition was pretty bad. The ironic thing about this was that I could still pass the fitness test used to determine deployability.


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 16, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Hi Robert,
> 
> 1) It may very well be why he is still alive. I used him as an example because as much as I respect him and would like to receive instruction from him, I somehow doubted that he would pass the high school fitness test that was offered as a minimum standard of fitness to be a martial artist.
> 
> ...


 
 1)When giving a fitness assessment a critical factor is age. Most 80 year olds regardless would never be on the same athletic scale as an 18 year old high school kid. What needs to be done is compare people in their own age group. Which is why I mentioned Mr. Uehara. Compared to other 90~100 year old people he was an Olympic Athlete since most people at his age were bed ridden. 

 2)If we are talking about real karate then no, power is not so important. If we are talking about K-1 type kicking boxing pseudo karate then power and stamina are pretty important. 

 3)Without getting too involved or bogged down in detail Real karate is in many ways like Aikido and doesnt rely so much on strength but using someone elses weakness against them. Having said that I see more fit looking Aikidoka than Karateka. Most karateka I see have a huge gut the cause of which can only be from serious lack of cardio training coupled with poor a diet..and possibly practicing too many no touchy KOs and not enough punches and kicks. There is a good book on MA training and Fitness called Going for Black Belt by Tony Gummerson. Its a good read for anyone that wants to add to their MA training.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 16, 2005)

Yes, age is an important consideration, as is the type of art and environment of application.

I can see I need more of an understanding of Karate. I have had the opinion that there was a heavy emphasis on power and fitness from observing some of the training and warm up exercises used. This seemed quite different to the Aikido training I have participated in and observed.

I used to think Karate was quite stiff and robotic until I was invited to Takeada senseis 9th Dan grading some years ago, and found that he moved quite differently to the local Karate I had observed here. So I have no doubt that I have some perceptions that are inaccurate.

Regarding fat guts, and I apologise for moving slightly off topic. I love cardio training and until my spinal injuries enjoyed Cycling and Triathlons. Having coached a number of Cyclists and observed others training I believe that weight loss can be more effective with weight training rather than cardio, although once again this maybe just a perception. Another observation is that a number of people with large stomachs otherwise appear normal. I wonder if this is more to do with poor action of the transverse abdominus, as many also seem to have back pain.


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 16, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Regarding fat guts, and I apologise for moving slightly off topic. I love cardio training and until my spinal injuries enjoyed Cycling and Triathlons.
> 
> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Having coached a number of Cyclists and observed others training I believe that weight loss can be more effective with weight training rather than cardio, although once again this maybe just a perception.
> 
> 2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Another observation is that a number of people with large stomachs otherwise appear normal. I wonder if this is more to do with poor action of the transverse abdominus, as many also seem to have back pain.





   1) Weight lossor should I say fat loss is best achieved by doing both weight training and cardio. Weight traing at the beginning of the workout and cardio at the end of it.

   To put it in very basic over simplified terms muscles burn glucose (blood sugar) and glucose is burned by lifting weights much faster than doing cardio. In fact, if you do too much cardio you go into what is called gluconeogenesis which is when your glucose storage is low and you start to use protein (muscle) as a fuel.better known as muscle wasting. So if you are trying to bulk up dont do excessive cardio.



   2) Weak stomach muscles will cause a bloated looking affect but I am talking about too many Krispy Kremes, Super Sized fast food, plain old fashioned FAT. I see more MA people that are over weight than most any other activity.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 16, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 2) Weak stomach muscles will cause a bloated looking affect but I am talking about too many Krispy Kremes, Super Sized fast food, plain old fashioned FAT. I see more MA people that are over weight than most any other activity.



And I have sparred with many of these individuals.  In most cases, they were defeated not by their lack of technique, but lack of fitness.  Even people who are of higher rank (much higher sometimes).  

In my arts case and I think that in many other arts, it is impossible to separate fitness from technique.  Yes, this applies differently to different people and it also applies differently according to the art, yet I think it is a goal we should strive for.  

At cho dan, I think that a student should be well on their way to accomplishing this goal.  Therefore, as a martial arts teacher, I have no problems sitting down with a student and setting personal fitness goals that will be part of that persons test for cho dan.


----------



## MichiganTKD (Jan 16, 2005)

Not only that, but I know numerous individuals in my own organizations, all Master Instructors, who would be classified as out of shape or just plain fat. Why? Because in their mind, Instructor level means they have retired from active practicing to focus more on teaching. For some reason, they think that after 4th Dan, your own technique is not as important as passing along knowledge to your students. Yes, building up your students is important. But what student wants to come to class and be taught by somebody who is obviously slow, out shape, and fat? Doesn't mean you have to be an Olympian in training, or an "Arnold", but becoming an Instructor should not mean you neglect your own training and development.


----------



## terryl965 (Jan 16, 2005)

I guest that I would be consider "fat" I'm 5'9" and wiegh 227 right now! I'm in shape for my age 45. I know I can move better at 190 lbs. but for the most part, reality is I will not be facing 20 years with fresh legs so being in shape and being overwieght is a total different structure. One can be in pretty good shape while being overwieght, in my own opion and I own and instruct plenty of young adults in TKD. We all as we would like to be in the best physical shape possible have limitation with health issue and other personal problem but still have the knowledge to pass along.


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 16, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> I guest that I would be consider "fat" I'm 5'9" and wiegh 227 right now! I'm in shape for my age 45. I know I can move better at 190 lbs. but for the most part, reality is I will not be facing 20 years with fresh legs so being in shape and being overwieght is a total different structure. One can be in pretty good shape while being overwieght, in my own opion and I own and instruct plenty of young adults in TKD. We all as we would like to be in the best physical shape possible have limitation with health issue and other personal problem but still have the knowledge to pass along.


 The best way to know if you are over weight is by testing body fat. Some people have more muscle than the average person for their height and therefore all the height/weight charts would not be accurate for them. Below are 2 websites that can give you an idea of your approximate body fat. To truly know what your body fat is you have to be tested with water immersion or by a machine like MicroFit. However the 2 links can give most people a pretty close estimate. 





http://www.thepumpingstation.com/bodyfatcalculator.html



http://www.stevenscreek.com/goodies/pi.shtml





 another way is by testing your BMI. Its not the best way but it can also give you a rough idea of where you are. For example, I tested my co-worker that is 57 and 153 lbs.. According to the BMI chart he was overweight, but when we tested his body fat he was between 7% to 9% body fat. Anything below 12% is damn good! Mind you he doesnt fit into the norm category. He lifts almost everyday and does cardio 4 to 5 times a week. 



http://nhlbisupport.com/bmi/bmicalc.htm





    Also of note. Being in shape athletically and being over fat are not the same thing. 

 Being over fat doesnt mean that someone cannot perform well athletically. It just means they need to work harder to perform. 

 Being in shape is measured by your VO2 max.plainly put VO2 max = cardio strengthhow much oxygen you use per unit of time..how well your heart and lungs work as compared to your weight.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 16, 2005)

If I could, I would like to summarize some points that have been made and get your opinions on there validity to the original question of being fit to be called a martial artist.
1.	Fitness will improve your performance in martial arts.
2.	Fitness will improve your life.
3.	Training will make you fitter.
4.	To be considered a martial artist you need to pass some standard of fitness assessment.
5.	You can be a martial artist even on your deathbed.

I can understand some of your criticisms of extremely out of shape and poor performing instructors. I have never encountered this within my art. I have certainly encountered instructors of varying fitness levels, but this had little to do with their abilities to apply techniques or teach them. We have one instructor here that suffered a bad electrical shock some years ago. This has left him with continual heart problems that sometimes mean he cant train for extended periods of time. His application of techniques in a randori environment though are almost without peer here in Australia. Would he perform better if he was fitter? Probably, but the reality is his performance now is better than many very fit people, even ones at his rank.

My personal definition of a martial artist is someone who is studying a martial art, and can perform the techniques required for the level of their grade, in a manner suitable for their grade, barring times of convalescence. Im not entirely sure what to do with accomplished martial artists that retire from the arts.


----------



## terryl965 (Jan 16, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> If I could, I would like to summarize some points that have been made and get your opinions on there validity to the original question of being fit to be called a martial artist.
> 1.    Fitness will improve your performance in martial arts.
> 2.    Fitness will improve your life.
> 3.    Training will make you fitter.
> ...


 All I know is *I"m overwieght* but I'm in shape enough to be able to do what I need if I had too!!! So many people put being thin is the only people in shape!!! Guess what they can't keep up in the Dojaang now in a race for 10 miles they have me but close quarters they belong to me and my Art!!!!!!!:asian:


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 16, 2005)

So you would fit into my definition of a martial artist, along with the kenshi I mentioned with the heart problems. Please transfer the sum of $500 to my bank account and I will issue you my certificate of obtaining the title Martial Artist. 


On the issue of fitness only. I would agree with Robert, but with an extra observation. Peoples size is not always because of lifestyle. Some people are genetically predispositioned to be a larger framed person. These people can bring there weight down, but it will require a lot more effort in dieting and exercise than the ordinary overweight person. This doesnt mean that their physical performance will be bad. They may never be an elite Triathlete, because there body structure is not suited to the requirements of the activity. They may be more suitable to some power sports like Olympic Weight lifting. When I used to do Triathlons I trained with some larger guys. Some of them managed to get their weight down, but they found that they felt like they lacked energy and their performance levels dropped. I think these guys just where naturally larger, rather than their lifestyle causing them to be large.


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 16, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> 1)[font=&quot]     [/font]On the issue of fitness only. I would agree with Robert, but with an extra observation. Peoples size is not always because of lifestyle. Some people are genetically predispositioned to be a larger framed person.
> 
> 2)[font=&quot]      [/font]These people can bring there weight down, but it will require a lot more effort in dieting and exercise than the ordinary overweight person. This doesnt mean that their physical performance will be bad. They may never be an elite Triathlete, because there body structure is not suited to the requirements of the activity. They may be more suitable to some power sports like Olympic Weight lifting.
> 3)[font=&quot]      [/font]When I used to do Triathlons I trained with some larger guys. Some of them managed to get their weight down, but they found that they felt like they lacked energy and their performance levels dropped. I think these guys just where naturally larger, rather than their lifestyle causing them to be large.


 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Actually I think we are in agreement on this point as well. Thats why I mentioned being over fat as opposed to over weight. The co-worker I mentioned was over weight according to his BMI chart. However he was extremely fit when given a more accurate test. 

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Some people have more muscle mass for their size than others and most likely will not fair well in marathons and so forth. They usually have more white muscle fiber and tend to be better at power sports rather than endurance.

     3)[font=&quot]      [/font]Anytime you try to lose weight and feel a lack of energy you are not lose the right kind of weight. More often than not you are losing muscle mass as opposed to fat. 


     Another point to mention is some people have more intramuscular fat than others and dont really appear to be fat. I do body fat tests on Japanese from time to time and they appear to be a rather thin race of people. However, when I test them their body fat % is really high (over 25% in most cases) compared to what they look like. 


   Having said all thata big gut that hangs out there is still a quick and easy indication someone is too fat.


----------



## Danjo (Jan 16, 2005)

Colin,


What about those like Chokki Motubu (Whom I pictured in an earlier post) and say, Ed Parker. Not exactly a slim fellow without a gut and who died at age 59? How would these fellows rank as martial artists in your book?


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 16, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Colin,
> 
> 
> What about those like Chokki Motubu (Whom I pictured in an earlier post) and say, Ed Parker. Not exactly a slim fellow without a gut and who died at age 59? How would these fellows rank as martial artists in your book?


Not ever having the opportunity to know them I would have to go by international opinion. I would expect that they would be able to pass the requirements I stated. Now would they be good in a martial sport? That is a different question, as is the issue of fighting ability. There are many martial arts, they don't all have the same emphasis on fighting or competing abilities.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 17, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)Actually I think we are in agreement on this point as well. Thats why I mentioned being over fat as opposed to over weight. The co-worker I mentioned was over weight according to his BMI chart. However he was extremely fit when given a more accurate test.
> 
> 2)Some people have more muscle mass for their size than others and most likely will not fair well in marathons and so forth. They usually have more white muscle fiber and tend to be better at power sports rather than endurance.
> 
> ...


As part of my level 2 Coaching course for Cycling I did some body fat checks on a couple of different athletes. The first was an up and coming Triathlete that we were lactate testing at the time. The other was a walk-in, he is one of the worlds best Cycling Track Sprinters and an ex world Champion. If you saw any of the Track Cycling at the Olympics he was the Aussie with the fearsome looking beard. He had just finished his off-season and was making jokes about how much trouble he was in because of all the beer he had been drinking and his lack of training. He is a very large man. Anyway when we did the body fat test he came out with less body fat than the skinny Triathlete. Looks can indeed be deceiving.


----------



## TCA (Jan 17, 2005)

I believe good physical fitness is a definite if you want to reach the goal of being the very best that you can  be.  I have heard instructors tell students that they felt that strength training would hinder ther MA abilities (flexibility).  This is incorrect information and usually spoken by one out of shape.  Bruce Lee was a strong advocate for strength training as was Joe Lewis.   Both, the best in their area.  The stronger of two opponents usually always win (this includes mental strength as well).  This is only my opinion...


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 17, 2005)

TCA said:
			
		

> I believe good physical fitness is a definite if you want to reach the goal of being the very best that you can be. I have heard instructors tell students that they felt that strength training would hinder ther MA abilities (flexibility). This is incorrect information and usually spoken by one out of shape. Bruce Lee was a strong advocate for strength training as was Joe Lewis. Both, the best in their area. The stronger of two opponents usually always win (this includes mental strength as well). This is only my opinion...


I dont think anyone would disagree with most of your comments. While strength is an advantage, it is only an advantage if it can be applied well. I have seen a number of examples of weaker people overcoming strong people. The Ali v Forman fight in Africa that I used earlier was a good example of this. To be effective you need the right combination of a number of qualities like fitness, timing, strategy, technique, and mental attitude. They all come together to form the whole.


----------



## Tgace (Jan 17, 2005)

Foreman didnt have the option of throwing Ali to the ground and beating the **** out of him though.


----------



## The Kai (Jan 17, 2005)

Ali was in great shape, allthough foreman was just stronger.  Ali's strategy was to let Foreman "punch himself out".  I don't think taking that kind of abuse is agreat idea!!
Todd


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 17, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Foreman didnt have the option of throwing Ali to the ground and beating the **** out of him though.


Indeed, this is where activity specific fitness comes in. Boxing like all sports will be shaped by the rules that govern it.

Come to think of it that tactic was tried once too by a Japanese Judoka. It wasnt the most entertaining matches. Ali danced around, while the Judoka lay on his back kicking Ali whenever he got close enough. Neither would risk engaging the other outside their method of expertise.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 17, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Ali was in great shape, allthough foreman was just stronger. Ali's strategy was to let Foreman "punch himself out". I don't think taking that kind of abuse is agreat idea!!
> Todd


Forman was formidable then. His power on the heavy bag was truly impressive. I remember an interview with one of Ali's trainers. They walked past Forman while he was training on the heavy bag, and Ali's face showed awe. Ali knew that he could not risk getting into any exchanges with him until he became tired, so he just covered up and kept goading Forman on. Not really the best tactic to use, but given his options it was probably the best one to use if he wanted to win.


----------



## tongsau (Jan 25, 2005)

Why do all the large muscled guys get fat?

Anyway. I always heard that you should do cardio before Weights. Jean Claude's workout regimen was 30min of Cardio and 45 of Weights. 
Some people say if you are spending 2 hours in the gym you are wasting your time. I think Arnold said that. Not sure.

What would you recommend for a person who struggles with injury related weight gain. Aside from eating less. I have a torn ankle ligament (ATFL) Can't run. Walking hurts after 2 miles. Dislocated knee due to this injury.
And developing arthritis, Knees, ankles, hands and shoulders.
Had an appendechtomy that causes my stomach to cramp after 20 reps of anything. Have been slowly increasing this but it is SLOW. Like 2 reps a month before cramping.
I need a punching bag - don't know what that will do to my hands? Anyone know how to lower the effects of Arthritis? My hands hurt after typing this message.
Trying Qi Gong. Thinking of doing some BJJ but don't know if I can do the warm-up.


----------



## Adept (Jan 25, 2005)

tongsau said:
			
		

> I have a torn ankle ligament (ATFL) Can't run. Walking hurts after 2 miles. Dislocated knee due to this injury.
> And developing arthritis, Knees, ankles, hands and shoulders.
> Had an appendechtomy that causes my stomach to cramp after 20 reps of anything. Have been slowly increasing this but it is SLOW. Like 2 reps a month before cramping.
> I need a punching bag - don't know what that will do to my hands? Anyone know how to lower the effects of Arthritis? My hands hurt after typing this message.
> Trying Qi Gong. Thinking of doing some BJJ but don't know if I can do the warm-up.


 You want something extremely low impact. Maybe tai chi. Anything whith those kinds of progressive problems, it is better to avoid anything that will make them worse. BJJ might sound good, but how will your knees and ankles feel after a few locks and whatnot have been applied to them?


----------



## tongsau (Jan 25, 2005)

Ankle locks should be OK. My foot is more flexible. But I may want to know if any locks can cause my knee to sublux again. Good point.
Tai Chi would be nice if I could pay the high price for a real teacher. Not some old lady teaching the "Yoga only" type. I looked around briefly.

Speaking of that does anyone know if this is true:
Yoga was a complete martial art and possibly still is in some parts of the world.
--any Hijackers want to take this?


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 25, 2005)

tongsau said:
			
		

> Why do all the large muscled guys get fat?
> 
> 1) Anyway. I always heard that you should do cardio before Weights. Jean Claude's workout regimen was 30min of Cardio and 45 of Weights.
> 2) Some people say if you are spending 2 hours in the gym you are wasting your time. I think Arnold said that. Not sure.





   1) You should do weights then cardio. Your muscles need glycogen as fuel and if you do cardio first you will burn a lot of glycogen and wont have much for doing weights.



   2) For most of us not on roids 45 minutes is the best since after that time most men have depleted their store of testosterone. If you are jacked on roids you can go all day long.


----------



## tongsau (Jan 25, 2005)

I believe it was intended for those people that go to the gym and lazily go to each routine, stopping for water, chatting etc. 30 second break between sets, 1 min per exercise or something. To build up cardio endurance in weight training.


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 25, 2005)

tongsau said:
			
		

> I believe it was intended for those people that go to the gym and lazily go to each routine, stopping for water, chatting etc. 30 second break between sets, 1 min per exercise or something. To build up cardio endurance in weight training.


    I wouldn't consider those kinds of people as "working out" at all.

  I think what you are talking about when you say building up cardio is called circuit training which is a lost different.
 Even then you are not spending more than 45 minutes for actual training.


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 25, 2005)

tongsau said:
			
		

> I need a punching bag - don't know what that will do to my hands? Anyone know how to lower the effects of Arthritis? My hands hurt after typing this message.


 
 Try swiming....or doing punches and kicks with just your head out of the wter......


----------



## Colin_Linz (Jan 25, 2005)

Pool work is great. I used it a lot when trying to get back to training after a couple of bad spinal injuries I sustained. I had done a lot of swimming in the past, but my pool at home is only about 10 meters long so swimming was not very attractive. I used to stand in the deep end and practice kihon. Apart from damping the shock loads through my body it provided a degree of resistance through the range of motion, and the effect of the different currents acting on the moving limbs excited the stabilisers. I still do this form of training at times.

My body is not that flash anymore. Ive had a couple of knee operations, broken clavicle, broken foot, broken fingers, crushed vertebrae (L1), one smashed disc and a couple of prolapsed discs and spinal surgery. Following the last spinal injury (the crushed L1) I decided that I shouldnt workout anymore because of the pain that followed. I then found that as my fitness level decreased I would get pain from doing less and less. It was then I decided if I was going to have pain anyway, I may as well be doing something I enjoy and gain some fitness again. Arthritis is going to be something I will need to face, but staying fit and active will reduce its effects. If I stop training now Im sure that Arthritis will set in rapidly. The old adage of, if you dont use it, you will loose it is very true.


----------



## TigerWoman (Jan 25, 2005)

tongsau said:
			
		

> I need a punching bag - don't know what that will do to my hands? Anyone know how to lower the effects of Arthritis? My hands hurt after typing this message.



I wouldn't do punching unless you put good gloves on.  Take Glucosamine _Sulfate_--a better form than Glucosamine Chondroitin, get it from a reliable source (not Walmart). Also take MSM which helps with inflammation.  Lessen inflammation and you will lessen damage. Glucosamine rebuilds cartilage, joint tissue.  It mended my torn meniscus in my knee after years.  It takes 3 months to get into your body for benefit.  I have taken it for six years-twice a day.  I wouldn't have been able to do TKD, jumping if not for it.  

Check out South Beach diet. It worked for me and my husband. Lower carbs-whole grains not potatoes, white rice, pasta, lower fats, good fats-olive oil, eat veggies morning noon and night-little meat, little milk, little low fat cheese, nuts, little fruit/juice, lean meat-4-5 oz.serving. Have small treats occasionally-1-200 calorie range.  Take the weight off joints and you will feel so much better and your joints will too. Take vitamins.

Keep exercising, low impact. I have a ellyptical which is good on knees, but cardio. Build up. Tai Chi would be good.  Yoga has men's classes as well and younger instructors.  Hey I'm 55 and teach kickboxing!  I give options for higher impact and I do lower!  You will need to change alot of your lifestyle.  TW


----------



## tongsau (Jan 25, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Try swiming....or doing punches and kicks with just your head out of the wter......



That's a good idea. Now I think I will build that large jacuzzi. Thanks Robert


----------



## tongsau (Jan 25, 2005)

I have started to take an old friends advice:
Increase vegtables. Try to eat as little as possible 4 times a day, use energy drinks when capable of resisting hunger, and a little alcohol every day. 
The dehydration effect of 1-3 drinks seems to be working pretty well.
It burns fat like I wouldn't believe. Probably not a good long term method though.


----------



## Paul Genge (Jan 25, 2005)

There are people out there that believe that concentrating on exercise is essential for martial artists and there are those who believe that this is devisive and waists valuable time, that can be used for developing skill.  The sad thing is that to some degree both sides of the argument are correct.

The first argument that it is essential to be very fit to use martial arts effectively is very valid to a point.  Most traditional martial arts have some sort of exercise regime that is preparitory to the skills development.  In some systems this can involve learning what is considered a hard style before being allowed to study a internal or more skill based system.  Other styles have exercises that develop certain physical and phycological atributes that are essential to learning and using the style in combat.  

The problem is when you either do not do this preparitory work (through laziness or lack of knowledge) or when you simply focus on this and never get onto the skill development.   

There are very skillfull old men out there who wipe the floor with guys less than half their age.  Often martial artists see these people and try to emulate them.  They see old man movements and a lack of physical exercise and they follow suit because they want to be like these masters who defeat opponents without effort.  What they do not see is the process of development that individual has gone through.  The years of physcial exercises and drills that they underwent and the process of learnig to use less effort as their understanding increased. 

People who do not put in the hard work are building castles without foundations, but people that get focused on fitness, speed and power loose sight of the possibilities that their bodies possess.  When they get older they become frustrated when they no longer have the speed or fitness of youth and often give up to take up an activity more suitable to their age.  

When you are a young man you have almost limitless energy.  Often it gets in the way of your development because you put too much effort and force into your fighting style.  The best way to stop this is to tire yourself out first.  Exercise does this well.  It also gives you the reserves thst can get you out of situations that your skill level cannot cope with. 

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


----------



## Kempogeek (Jan 25, 2005)

I couldn't agree with OU Moose more. Im currently an orange belt in Kosho Ryu Kempo and a bit on the heavy side. I feel that I could be more fluent with my katas and kicks if I could lose some weight. I would like to be able to execute better side and back kicks. As I watch my sensei perform the different katas, he just flows through it. I hope that I can drop the pounds and be able to improve my performance. Best regards, Steve


----------



## Kempogeek (Jan 25, 2005)

I couldn't agree with OU Moose more. Im currently an orange belt in Kosho Ryu Kempo and a bit on the heavy side. I feel that I could be more fluent with my katas and kicks if I could lose some weight. I would like to be able to execute better side and back kicks. As I watch my sensei perform the different katas, he just flows through it. I hope that I can drop the pounds and be able to improve my performance. Best regards, Steve


----------



## still learning (Jan 25, 2005)

Hello, Martial arts and physcal fitness should go hand in hand. People expect you to be in good shape (especially the black belts). " Survival of the fitness", make sense slogan. Can you out last your attacker? Will he catch you if you run away? 

 Martial arts is suppose to develop the mind and body. There is a only yes for an answer for "martial arts and phycial fitness goes together.

 As you get older of course your body slows down little, but not the mind. To be phycial shape for your age is all that is expected, make sense? ...'Aloha


----------



## Deschain (Jan 26, 2005)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Hey I'm 55 and teach kickboxing!


You must be quite good then. What's your record?


----------



## TigerWoman (Jan 26, 2005)

Deschain said:
			
		

> You must be quite good then. What's your record?



No, not that good... not ring kickboxing.  Kick and box the bag, kickboxing. TW


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 26, 2005)

You can add this on to your regular martial art workout.



 I do what is known as an ABC workout. Because you are working unrelated body parts and mixing them up each day you can do this work out about 6 days a week. This workout is on a 31 day cycle so I am not going to write it all out but this can give you and idea of how it looks. 



     A= 10 sets doing 10 reps at 60% of your 1 rep max (1rm)

     B = 5 reps doing 3 sets at 85% of your 1rm

           12 reps doing 3 sets at 70% of your 1rm

           40 reps doing 3 sets at 40% of your 1rm



     C = 5 reps doing 3 sets at 85% of your 1rm

           12 reps doing 3 sets at 70% of your 1rm

           40 reps doing 3 sets at 40% of your 1rm



     So for example:

     My bench 1 rep max (last time I checked) was 365 lbs., so if I were to do A workout I would do 219lbs. 10 reps for 10 sets.

 If I were to do B workout it would be 85% = 295 lbs, 5 reps for 3 sets, then 70% = 255lbs 12 reps for 3 sets, then something like 40% = 145 lbs, 40 reps for 3 sets. Basically for the 40 reps most people cant do it after doing the first part of the workout so just go to failure on each of the sets that say 40 reps. 

 The reasoning behind this workout is when doing 85% of your 1rm you are hitting the white muscle fiber which gives you power and size, the 70% of you 1rm portion gives you all around strength, the 40% of your 1rm portion hits the red muscle fibers for endurance. 

 Each days workout ends with 20 minutes of cardio using either an elliptical trainer, treadmill, stationary bike, or Cybex cross trainer. Doing more than 20 minutes is said to emaciate muscle so I wouldnt do more than 20. Also, you dont want to do the treadmill on days you hit your quads.trust me it sucks. On those days I use the bike. 





     Day 1:

     Chest = workout A

     Upper back = workout C 

     Biceps = workout A

     Forearms = workout B

     Abs = workout B

     Calves = workout B



     Day 2: 

     Shoulders = workout C

     Lower Back = workout B

     Triceps = workout B

     Quads = workout C

     Hamstrings = workout B



     Day 3:

     Chest = workout B

     Biceps = workout B

     Abs = workout C

     Calves = workout C



     Day 4: 

     Forearms = workout C

     Traps = workout A



     Day 5: Off



     Day 6: 

     Chest = workout B

     Upper Back = workout A

     Biceps = workout C

     Triceps = workout C

     Hams = workout A


----------



## 47MartialMan (Mar 5, 2005)

This was the same discussion I had with a "fitness minded" student. The discussion developed when he and I seen out-of-shape Tai Ji and Karate instructors during a gym (health fitness type) workout.

Fitness is not a sole requirement.

Health is.

You can be healthy and not in great fitness (or vice versa)-per body structure.

Remember that jogger that published a famous book on running and died sometime later of a stroke? Hmmnnnn


----------



## Tgace (Mar 9, 2005)

The Role Of Physical Preparation in Combat Disciplines

http://www.dragondoor.com/cstaley01.pdf


----------



## lulflo (Mar 9, 2005)

I believe that physical fitness should be a byproduct of the philosophy of martial arts. It seems that focus, intent and hard work would drive an individual to be the very best they can be in the physical, mental and spiritual realms respectively. I think it is somewhat evident when you look at an idividual who trains in the martial arts, just how much they take in regarding their discipline in the physical, mental and spiritual. I am not saying that you can always tell a book by its cover, what I am saying is that in my experience, I can see a major transformation between folks who are serious about training and those who are not. There are always exceptions and I don't want to be offensive, but I think most people who read this probably understand where they are personally when they look deep down to figure out if they are doing everything they can be doing to maintain (i.e. diet, exercise, calistenics, weight training, cardio, etc).

I would say that martial arts and physical fitness do go hand in hand (as much as is possible for the individual).

Farang - Larry


----------



## 47MartialMan (Mar 9, 2005)

So one has to be in complete physical fitmess for defense?


----------



## Shizen Shigoku (Mar 9, 2005)

I agree with most of the listed points in post #123 (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=337046&postcount=123)


My thinking is that the purpose of martial arts is to provide technical skills to compensate for a lack of physical fitness (so that the weak may defend themselves from the strong, e.g.), so my opinion is that yes, one can be a martial artist without being physically fit.

However I am confused by the compound question:

upnorthkyosa: "Do you think that Martial Arts and Physical Fitness should go hand in hand or do you think one can be a Martial Artist without being physically fit? Why?"

I don't think physical fitness is a requirement to martial arts ability, but I do believe the two go hand in hand. 

Colin_Linz: 
"
1. Fitness will improve your performance in martial arts.
2. Fitness will improve your life.
3. Training will make you fitter."

I agree with the above to a certain extent - it depends on the art/style.
I don't agree with point 4 (a standard of fitness is required) - again because it depends on the style.


I am further confused because the poll doesn't ask for an opinion on whether fitness is a requirement, but rather asks about a personal assessment of one's own fitness. I suppose the thread starter wanted to gather two sets of data - whatever.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Mar 10, 2005)

Shizen Shigoku,

 I structured those points badly. I was after feedback on what others thought regarding them. This thread has discussed a number of issues and I was trying to simply capture some of the themes and get specific responses. The issue regarding a fitness test was brought up by someone else. Personally I dont see value in it when determining your classification as a martial artist. The range of skill sets are so different as is the physical abilities of various practitioners. For me it is more a matter of are they studying and trying to improve in their martial arts. Another theme was that you have to be fit to teach people. Students dont like to be taught by fat lazy instructors. While I have never trained under a lazy instructor in Shorinji Kempo, I have trained under some larger ones. This has always been of benefit to me. Further to this are the old unfit Boxing trainers you see. They still seem to be able to teach their craft well. This concept has more to do with a students perception rather than the facts of wether the instructor can teach them or not.


----------



## 47MartialMan (Mar 10, 2005)

And that is the same way I view. One of my Chinese Shifus was well-rounded in the belly. But he moved and had power than most of the younger guys. Even out-wind many.


----------



## lulflo (Mar 11, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> So one has to be in complete physical fitmess for defense?


 I guess I am talking more about the philosophy of training. If one is training in martial arts, and they are working to be a better person, then awareness of physical fitness would surface. Take training to heart and realize ALL that can be achieved. Physical fitness seems to go hand in hand with this philosophy - to me anyway.

     Hope that clarifies my thoughts a little.

     Farang - Larry


----------



## Makalakumu (Mar 11, 2005)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> upnorthkyosa: "Do you think that Martial Arts and Physical Fitness should go hand in hand or do you think one can be a Martial Artist without being physically fit? Why?"



I believe that one can be a martial artist without being physically fit, but I also believe that one can be a *better * martial artist _by _ being physically fit.

It all depends on your teachers standards.  For my teacher, there is absolutely no way you can meet the requirements at the dan level without being in good physical shape.  

This does not mean that I, or my teacher, are unwilling to accomodate.  For conditions a student can nothing change, I will gladly move the bar to a more appropriate level for some skills.  For instance, one of my students only has one leg and she wears a prosthesis to class.  Can she do some of our kicks?  No, but she can grapple.  So that is where we focus.

A good teacher of the martial arts should challenge their students in every way...mentally, emotionally, and _physically_.  

upnorthkyosa


----------



## Shaolinwind (Mar 11, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Do you think that Martial Arts and Physical Fitness should go hand in hand or do you think one can be a Martial Artist without being physically fit? Why?


 My thoughts are, anyone no matter how fat or skinny can practice and even excell in martial arts.  But, if your fitness doesn't improve you simply aren't practicing a martial art properly.

For me, not using self discipline in my lifestyle and my eating patterns would be ignoring my Tang Soo Do.  If I always practice TSD both in and out of the do jang, I will by default improve my health and lose more weight.  

When I started, I was so big I had to find a size 10 uniform and have it taylored for my height. 5'9" 300 lbs.  My yellow belt was special ordered size 9. My orange, a size 8.  Will my green be a 7? I hope so.  Then I can get into a normal uniform!


----------



## Colin_Linz (Mar 11, 2005)

Chobaja said:
			
		

> My thoughts are, anyone no matter how fat or skinny can practice and even excell in martial arts. But, if your fitness doesn't improve you simply aren't practicing a martial art properly.
> 
> For me, not using self discipline in my lifestyle and my eating patterns would be ignoring my Tang Soo Do. If I always practice TSD both in and out of the do jang, I will by default improve my health and lose more weight.
> 
> When I started, I was so big I had to find a size 10 uniform and have it taylored for my height. 5'9" 300 lbs. My yellow belt was special ordered size 9. My orange, a size 8. Will my green be a 7? I hope so. Then I can get into a normal uniform!


 This is quite true in general terms. What needs to be understood is that this result will differ from art to art, even in sporting ones. Look at the difference between a heavy weight boxer and that of a sumotori. Both would study their sport/art as seriously as the other, but the individual requirements will require a different type of sport specific fitness. This makes a one size fits all model of a martial artist difficult to define.


----------



## Shaolinwind (Mar 11, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> [/size][/font]This is quite true in general terms. What needs to be understood is that this result will differ from art to art, even in sporting ones. Look at the difference between a heavy weight boxer and that of a sumotori. Both would study their sport/art as seriously as the other, but the individual requirements will require a different type of sport specific fitness. This makes a one size fits all model of a martial artist difficult to define.


I bet there are even sumotori who think "I just can't eat another 5 pounds of buckwheat noodles" and then resume eating as required.


----------



## Colin_Linz (Mar 11, 2005)

Chobaja said:
			
		

> I bet there are even sumotori who think "I just can't eat another 5 pounds of buckwheat noodles" and then resume eating as required.


 Yes, it is necessary to push our boundaries when training.


----------



## 47MartialMan (Mar 11, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> [/size][/font]This is quite true in general terms. What needs to be understood is that this result will differ from art to art, even in sporting ones. Look at the difference between a heavy weight boxer and that of a sumotori. Both would study their sport/art as seriously as the other, but the individual requirements will require a different type of sport specific fitness. This makes a one size fits all model of a martial artist difficult to define.


Very well put and solidifies the statement on why so many different ones are needed


----------



## 47MartialMan (May 28, 2005)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> I think it depends on the type of art, too. Obviously, someone with the same skills/training who is also in better shape (cardio, etc) will probably be able to perform better than another.
> 
> But I think it's a bit different if you are talking internal MA vs. external MA. I know some fabulous internal-style guys who are not traditionally "in shape", but there's no way I'd want to take a punch from them.


How true. I know this round-belly, 68 year old Chinese man that move efficiently and takes the wind out of me.


----------



## BruceCalkins (May 31, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> I think this is exactly right. The reason I say that is because I have a friend that goes to the gym and works out constantly. He does cardio, weight training, etc. I have done some weight training in the gym my self, but my point is, he and I like to box on occasion, and even though he is in much better "gym" shape than me, he has no wind, and it really shows when he takes a good hit.
> 
> As far as MA movements not being "natural movements", they are not. That's why we train to the point where the movements become "muscle memory". All in all, if you are a good martial artist, AND in peak physical condition, it sure doesn't hurt any.


Remember to that Martial Arts Builds you body different that weight training. Areas that would not normally build do. Areas that would not normally cut down do... I have a friend that is a compitition Lifter from Batavia NY. His name is Glen Huges, and he has a 6 pack and a half.. Now I am Biger in Bulk But I can take a full punch that would flatten him. He has no strngth in his abs just defenition and cuts. He can out lift me with the upper body but I waste him in the leg machine.. I throw kicks everyday and my legs are all of my power. Plus My Students work with ropes for wind and endurance. A Lot of Gym Lifters don't do these type of exercizes.


----------



## The Kai (May 31, 2005)

BruceCalkins said:
			
		

> Remember to that Martial Arts Builds you body different that weight training. Areas that would not normally build do. Areas that would not normally cut down do... I have a friend that is a compitition Lifter from Batavia NY. His name is Glen Huges, and he has a 6 pack and a half.. Now I am Biger in Bulk But I can take a full punch that would flatten him. He has no strngth in his abs just defenition and cuts. He can out lift me with the upper body but I waste him in the leg machine.. I throw kicks everyday and my legs are all of my power. Plus My Students work with ropes for wind and endurance. A Lot of Gym Lifters don't do these type of exercizes.


The proto type karate (striking type body) IMHO Strong legs/hips (ability to use power). strong, narrow waistline (punching and kicking are rotation excercises, the narrow the rotation point (axle) the more snap in your strikes).  wide shoulders.  Genetically we have different strenghts
If someone has a 6 pack with all the bells and whistles they probably have the strenght (esp since the abs are a prime stabilizer for the upperbody).  they need to be conditioned to take a shot
Kicks don't necessarily creat a ton of strenght in the legs
Jumping rope is more for co-ordination and footwork, there is not a lot of cardio involved


----------



## chris... (May 31, 2005)

You can run a marathon and be grossly overweight, general fitness is not required for martial arts but it surely does help, having said that i ride my bike to and from training unless it raining.


----------



## The Kai (May 31, 2005)

chris... said:
			
		

> You can run a marathon and be grossly overweight, general fitness is not required for martial arts but it surely does help, having said that i ride my bike to and from training unless it raining.


Martial arts is a blend of skill sets blended with fitness.  Do you have to be flexible, NO.  Strong, NO, have some staminia, again NO.  But it sure does help.  If Martial arts are a way of life should you not be watching your diet, getting a little sweat on everyday, and staying limber?


----------



## 47MartialMan (May 31, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Martial arts is a blend of skill sets blended with fitness. Do you have to be flexible, NO. Strong, NO, have some staminia, again NO. But it sure does help. If Martial arts are a way of life should you not be watching your diet, getting a little sweat on everyday, and staying limber?


But does the way of life have to state that it has to be a Charles Atlas?


----------



## jfarnsworth (May 31, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> But does the way of life have to state that it has to be a Charles Atlas?


No not really. As we get older though it will be harder and harder to keep fit and trim. It all depends upon the individual to do what they can to stay in shape.


----------



## 47MartialMan (May 31, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> No not really. As we get older though it will be harder and harder to keep fit and trim. It all depends upon the individual to do what they can to stay in shape.


But given that, there are a lot of "old timers" who do not look like bow-flex people.


----------



## The Kai (Jun 1, 2005)

The people from the bow flex commercial train for certian results.  Ma training entails more then that.  My point if MA is a way of life, would'nt that include doing things to increase that way of life, diet, exercise.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jun 1, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Ma training entails more then that.  My point if MA is a way of life, would'nt that include doing things to increase that way of life, diet, exercise.


You got it.
artyon:


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jun 1, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> But given that, there are a lot of "old timers" who do not look like bow-flex people.


I have a hard time believing that the people in the bow flex infomercial completely work out on the bow flex.


----------



## RRouuselot (Jun 1, 2005)

BruceCalkins said:
			
		

> 1) Remember to that Martial Arts Builds you body different that weight training. Areas that would not normally build do.
> 
> 2) Areas that would not normally cut down do...
> 
> ...



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Uh..yeah thats kinda obvious. Thats like saying baskeyball is not the same as weight lifting.

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Spot reduction is a common myth.there is no such thing.

   3)[font=&quot]      [/font]If he has a 6 pack then he must have more definition than you and obviously less body fat. 

   4)[font=&quot]      [/font]Hmmmmusually when people do leg work it involves cardiovascular type work and if done in decent amounts tends to slim people up pretty nicely


----------



## RRouuselot (Jun 1, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I have a hard time believing that the people in the bow flex infomercial completely work out on the bow flex.


 [font=&quot]Well there is 1 thing you and I agree on. [/font]


----------



## TonyM. (Jun 1, 2005)

Considering the guy in the first nautilis commercials had never used one before they filmed him I generally disregard all pitchmen.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jun 1, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> [font=&quot]Well there is 1 thing you and I agree on. [/font]



Actually, it's been quite a bit more than that, I just choose to stay silent most of the time.    I'd actually like to sip a long island iced tea with 'ya. You're a straight shooter, no nonsense and I like that.  :asian:


----------



## RRouuselot (Jun 1, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Actually, it's been quite a bit more than that, I just choose to stay silent most of the time.    I'd actually like to sip a long island iced tea with 'ya. You're a straight shooter, no nonsense and I like that.  :asian:


  Sounds good....I like "Ice Tea".
  Ever try an Alabama Slammer? 
  They go down good in the summer too.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Jan 30, 2006)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Sounds good....I like "Ice Tea".
> Ever try an Alabama Slammer?
> They go down good in the summer too.


 
Had to put a post here as seeing your name come up under new posts each time someone responds to the poll is frightening to a lot of people, myself included.  

On topic: sure, I think it's great for martial artists to be in the best shape possible.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 30, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Had to put a post here as seeing your name come up under new posts each time someone responds to the poll is frightening to a lot of people, myself included.


 
I was having a lot of fun thinking about people's reactions to that...:ultracool


----------

