# I'm confused



## tshadowchaser (Mar 30, 2015)

I need some help understanding why if Hwang Kee  started  Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan  why is he the founder of  Soo Bahk Doo?  Are these two arts supposedly the same art  ?  Is one a Korean name and one an American?  Sorry I'm confused
Soo Bahk Do


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 30, 2015)

GM HWANG, Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan and taught Tang Soo Do. He joined the unification and changed to Tae Kwon Do. He split off and returned to teaching Tang Soo Do. He got a copy of an old military training manual that includes a couple pages of empty hand stuff and incorporated that into his art and changed the name to Soo Bahk Do, a reference to an older system called Soo Bahk. 
The name mostly tells you when that branch split off from the family tree. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 30, 2015)

Thanks DD.  The more I read on the art the more confused I was becoming.  Now I have a better understanding


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 30, 2015)

Well, that's the abbreviated version.
The history of TKD and the Moo Duk Kwan is a mess, honestly, and I don't believe even a real historian could reliably and completely separate truth from fiction from mis-remembered from skewed by an individuals prejudices and perceptions. And I'm not a real historian. I read, I've talked to a few people who were there, and I ponder. 
I do think the larger points of the histories are pretty straight forward. It's the details that get a bit fuzzy...


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 31, 2015)

My first black belt was in Moo Duk Kwoon back in the day  but I was never introduced to the politics or history of the art. I do not think my instructor knew any of it.
The strange part was it was called Moo Duk Kwoon Tae Kwoon Do and  was not connected to  the Tang Soo Do organizations


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 31, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> My first black belt was in Moo Duk Kwoon back in the day  but I was never introduced to the politics or history of the art. I do not think my instructor knew any of it.
> The strange part was it was called Moo Duk Kwoon Tae Kwoon Do and  was not connected to  the Tang Soo Do organizations



Actually, it would have been strange if they _*were*_ connected to a MDK TSD org...
Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do is the branch of the MDK that stayed with the KTA and the unification efforts with GM LEE, Kang Ik as the new Kwanjangnim of that branch of the MDK. That branch then split between those that are still fully KKW-based schools following the KKW curriculum (which mostly these days will identify themselves as KKW schools rather than MDK schools) and those that split (or semi-split) from the KKW. Schools like ours, which I consider "semi-KKW" self-identify as MDK TKD schools. We teach 6 Kicho (basic) forms, 8 Palgwae (as our required forms), 8 taegeuks (optional forms, for those who want KKW Dan certification) and the KKW Yudanja forms (though not at the same levels as the KKW - Koryo, for example, is learned at 1st Geup rather than 1st Dan). I consider us "semi-KKW" because although we do offer KKW Dan certification, we also offer certification through the MDK. Our Dan ranks are about evenly split between those with KKW and those with MDK certification. I tend to encourage students who may be moving (such as college students) to get the KKW certification simply because it is a larger org and it will be easier to have it acknowledged in other cities. But I will also say none of our MDK certified students has ever been asked not to wear their rank when they've moved away, even if they've joined a pure-KKW school.

MDK TSD schools tend to be from a branch that split from the "main" MDK at some point after GM HWANG, Kee left the KTA, but before (or because of) the change to Soo Bahk Do.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 1, 2015)

And I learn once more .  Thanks for keeping my knowledge expanding.


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## Chrisoro (Apr 29, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> He got a copy of an old military training manual that includes a couple pages of empty hand stuff and incorporated that into his art and changed the name to Soo Bahk Do, a reference to an older system called Soo Bahk.
> .





tshadowchaser said:


> And I learn once more .  Thanks for keeping my knowledge expanding.



To expand it even more, the book which Dirty Dog is mentioning above, is the Muyedobotongjii, which can be bought in an english translation from Amazon.com. I got to warn you that it is not very informative if looked upon as instructional media. As an historical document, however, it's very interesting.


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