# How many Kenpo 10th degrees?



## M F

As many of you Kenpoists know, this past weekend Mr. Paul Mills was promoted to the rank of 10th degree.  This made me curious.  I would like to know how many 10th degrees there are in Kenpo, and American Kenpo in particular.  Please, if you want to post your opinion of any of the 10th degrees, at least keep it polite.  I would not like this to turn into a flame fest.  This is posted this out of curiosity only.  Thanks.


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## M F

I found this at the IKKO site.  Mr. Conatser, I hope you don't mind.
I added a couple who I think have been promoted since the IKKO site has updated them.

Al Tracy - 10th Degree 
Joe Palanzo - 10th Degree 
Larry Tatum - 10th Degree 
Dave Hebler - 10th Degree 
Mike Pick - 10th Degree 
Joe Demmick - 10th Degree 
Steve (Sanders) Mohamad - 10th Degree 
Donnie Williams - 10th Degree 
Jim Mitchell - 10th Degree 
Ron Chap'el - 10th Degree 
Chuck Sullivan - 10th Degree 
Dale Petit - 10th Degree 
Bob Rose - 10th Degree 
John McSweeney - 10th Degree
Huk Planas - 10th Degree(I think) 
Frank Trejo - 10th Degree 
Paul Mills - 10th Degree 
Vic LeRoux - 10th Degree

Any more out there?


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## Seig

I have nothing against 10th degrees per se.  I do take issue with people, who for one reason or another, have felt it was ok to also use the title Senior Grand Master.  That title is Mr. Parker's alone.  When one has such a lofty degree, I believe that you have to look at WHO promoted him, was it A contemporary, was it his body of students, or a body of his contemporaries that were all high ranking (senior) black belts at the time of Mr. Parker's death.


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## Michael Billings

... and to 9th's honoring the memory of SGM Parker:

Steven LaBounty
Tom Kelly, Sr.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## Elfan

Just for comparison, those with a star claimed the rank of 10th degree at the time that _The Journey_  was published

# Doreen Cogliandro
# Dennis Conatser
# Skip Hancock
# Bryan Hawkins
# Dave Hebler *
# Sean Kelley
# Stephen LaBounty
# Vic LeRoux
# Bob Liles
# Paul Mills
# Steve Muhammad *
# Mike Pick *
# Richard Planas
# Rainer Schulte
# John Sepulveda
# Jeff Speakman
# Chuck Sullivan *
# Dian Tanaka
# Larry Tatum *
# Frank Trejo
# Gilbert Velez
# Lee Wedlake
# Bob White
# Donnie Williams*


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## Klondike93

"American Kenpo in particular"

One - Ed Parker Sr.

 

Klondike (aka Chuck)


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## jfarnsworth

I guess until you see it in black and white one would have never thought there were so many 10ths.:asian:


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## Klondike93

Makes me wonder     I know there's 2 names on there that didn't want it, the rest I believe were craving it and got it.


 

Klondike (aka Chuck)


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## Michael Billings

Dian Tanaka has never claimed a 10th, and always worn her rank (5th, now 6th I think) when attending my former Association functions, in the UKS .  Did this change recently???  

Bob Liles was 8th Black last time I saw him, with no asperations for a 10th.  What is up with your putting him on the list?

Dennis Conatser, everyone on this forum knows his rank.

So now I am looking closer.  You have lots of names on there that are not claiming 10th Degrees.  They just have # signs by there names.  Do you have a question here or an observation?  I am just missing it.  The topic is about EXISTING 10th Degrees!!!

-Michael
*Kenpo-Texas.com*


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## Nightingale

they listed everyone in the journey, and put * by the names of anyone in that book who claimed a 10th.


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Dian Tanaka has never claimed a 10th, and always worn her rank (5th, now 6th I think) when attending my former Association functions, in the UKS .  Did this change recently???
> 
> Bob Liles was 8th Black last time I saw him, with no asperations for a 10th.  What is up with your putting him on the list?
> 
> Dennis Conatser, everyone on this forum knows his rank.
> 
> So now I am looking closer.  You have lots of names on there that are not claiming 10th Degrees.  They just have # signs by there names.  Do you have a question here or an observation?  I am just missing it.  The topic is about EXISTING 10th Degrees!!!
> 
> -Michael
> Kenpo-Texas.com *



LOL........ Would you please get some "GLASSES" and read carefully the entire post......  these were people in "The Journey" those with * behind thier names were claiming 10ths when the book came out ..... thats all.    LOL geeze.... you trying to start a riot?  lol

:shrug: :rofl:


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## Dun Ringill

Does anyone know the year that these men started Kenpo?  Including Mr. Kelly and Sigung Labounty?


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## M F

Klondike,
I'm sure everyone knew about Mr. Parker, and that's why his name wasn't mentioned earlier.  I'll be sending a PM your way in just a minute.

I am sure there are more 10ths out there.  I believe there is a guy in Las Vegas named Al Farnsworth who is wearing a tenth. We all know Clyde's opinion of him.    Any others anyone can think of?


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## Michael Billings

I figured out "The Journey" part.  I just did not see the relevance of listing everyone in it as vs the "10th's".  I thought there may be more to the post that I was missing??  

"Party on dudes" -Bill & Ted

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## Nightingale

Personally, I liked that they listed everyone.  It shows, that with so many seniors that we respect, so few claim a 10th.


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## Elfan

So "they" is the appropriate pronoun to use when refering to me nightingale? ;-)



> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I figured out "The Journey" part.  I just did not see the relevance of listing everyone in it as vs the "10th's".  I thought there may be more to the post that I was missing??   *



It was for comparison purposes.  Here is a big list of the most well respected American Kenpo Seniors, and of those how many claimed the rank of 10th degree (at that time).  Does that make more sense?


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## Michael Billings

No Problemo, I just missed the crux of the bisquet.

-Michael


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## Elfan

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *No Problemo, I just missed the crux of the bisquet.*



Haha thats a great phrase!


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## Nightingale

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *So "they" is the appropriate pronoun to use when refering to me nightingale? ;-)
> 
> 
> *




Well "Elfan" is a rather gender ambiguous name... I didn't want to use the wrong pronoun.


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## Goldendragon7

Where did they acquire that rank, from whom,why, for what, and do they really deserve it!  

Al Tracy............... - 10th Degree 
Joe Palanzo............ - 10th Degree 
Larry Tatum............ - 10th Degree 
Dave Hebler............ - 10th Degree 
Mike Pick.............. - 10th Degree 
Joe Demmick............ - 10th Degree 
Steve (Sanders) Mohamad - 10th Degree 
Donnie Williams........ - 10th Degree 
Jim Mitchell........... - 10th Degree 
Ron Chap'el............ - 10th Degree 
Chuck Sullivan......... - 10th Degree 
Dale Petit............. - 10th Degree 
Bob Rose............... - 10th Degree 
John McSweeney......... - 10th Degree
Huk Planas............. - 10th Degree
Frank Trejo............ - 10th Degree 
Paul Mills............. - 10th Degree 
Vic LeRoux............. - 10th Degree
Ralph Castallenos...... - 10th Degree
George Maughn.......... - 10th Degree
Al Farnsworth.......... - 10th Degree

Sad thing is there are 3 "9th Degrees" that Deserve to be on the List more than "Most" of 
the above!

Steve LaBounty ~ Tom Kelly ~ Bob White

:asian:


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## Dun Ringill

Mr. Conatser,

Do you know which 10th degrees that Sigung Labounty, Si-bok Kelly, and Professor White recognize as legititmate 10 degrees?


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## M F

There are some 6th degrees that probably deserve higher ranks, due to longevity and contributions to the art.    I respect those who do not have an overwhelming desire to gain rank.


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill_*
> Mr. Conatser,
> Do you know which 10th degrees that Sigung Labounty, Si-bok Kelly, and Professor White recognize as legititmate 10 degrees?
> *



Because they will have to express themselves to anyone that is interested in that question. 

I will say that I have spoken to each on the subject and they all have opinions on the topic.

Each however, does think more of the Art than of what they wear on their belts.  Their students, what and how they teach do most of the talking form them. Each have accomplished and has been a very important part of the History of American Kenpo.  All three were close to Mr. Parker and remained so until his death.  

These men respect the skills of ANY martial artist and are friends or Past instructors of some of those on the list.  They enjoy the accomplishments of their "offspring" much more than their personal gains.

I sincerely respect their positions, modesty, and leadership.

:asian:


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## KenpoGirl

Just to get to Black Belt some day.  

Some days it feels farther away then others.  :shrug:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _*
> Just to get to Black Belt some day.  Some days it feels farther away then others.  :shrug:
> *


That's natural.  Keep in mind a "Black Belt" is only a belt.  A Quality Black Belt Individual is what you should want!  Again, the Art is in the heart not on the belt.

 Persistence and consistency (along with accurate instruction) is the key.  Each class is one step closer to the goal.  You CAN do it, just train as hard and often as you can and be the BEST you can be!  Aim for  nothing but excellence, accept progress.

:asian:


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> *Just to get to Black Belt some day.
> Some days it feels farther away then others.  :shrug: *



I'll give you your Black belt. But as the Gracie's say, _"It only covers 2 inches of your @ss. You'll have to back the rest of it up yourself."_ Plus I will give you a quarter. If you get into trouble you can call me and I will listen to the problem and then tell you if you're a) royally screwed or b) you need to pick me up some take out.
:rofl:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _*
> "Your Black belt only covers 2 inches of your @ss. You'll have to back the rest of it up yourself."
> *



LOL, I like that.

:rofl:


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## Elfan

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *Well "Elfan" is a rather gender ambiguous name... I didn't want to use the wrong pronoun. *



haha

I'm a guy btw.


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Elfan _*
> haha I'm a guy btw.
> *



Thank God the English lesson is out of the way!  For a minute I thougnt Robert was back!  Wheeeeew     LOL

:rofl: 

:asian:


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## KenpoGirl

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *I'll give you your Black belt. But as the Gracie's say, "It only covers 2 inches of your @ss. You'll have to back the rest of it up yourself." Plus I will give you a quarter. If you get into trouble you can call me and I will listen to the problem and then tell you if you're a) royally screwed or b) you need to pick me up some take out.
> :rofl: *



sniff sniff :waah: 

It's so touching the way you care.   What a friend :wah:


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## KenpoGirl

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *That's natural.  Keep in mind a "Black Belt" is only a belt.  A Quality Black Belt Individual is what you should want!  Again, the Art is in the heart not on the belt.
> 
> Persistence and consistency (along with accurate instruction) is the key.  Each class is one step closer to the goal.  You CAN do it, just train as hard and often as you can and be the BEST you can be!  Aim for  nothing but excellence, accept progress.
> 
> :asian: *



Thanks Dennis for the supportive words   

I intent to keep going and doing the best I can.  :karate: 

And with a little help from my friends including my MT friends I know I can do it. 

:cheers:


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## Klondike93

> If you get into trouble you can call me and I will listen to the problem and then tell you if you're a) royally screwed or b) you need to pick me up some take out.



That was funny Gou. 


:asian: 


Klondike (aka Chuck)


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> *It's so touching the way you care. What a friend.*



I do what I can baby!


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## Kenpo Yahoo

> Sad thing is there are 3 "9th Degrees" that Deserve to be on the List more than "Most" of
> the above!



Then who should or shouldn't in your opinion have a tenth?


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## Iron Dog

:shrug: Yikes! I've been out of the loop for WAY to long. I can't really comment on who deserves and who doesn't, I don't know most of these gentlemen. It seems like an awful lot though. Are they all students of Mr. Parker? I mean REALLY students of Mr. Parker, not seminar takers.
Well who am I to try and figure this out, I guess the only questions in my mind are: Why? What for? and What has it done for you?
But, here's a  question if anyone feels like answering it. The 3 gentlemen who are not 10th's, who were their pupils on that prestigious list?
I.D. 
P.S. M F, great comment about the sixth degrees who deserve the higher rank. Kind of a those who stand quietly and serve thingy...


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> Then who should or shouldn't in your opinion have a tenth?
> *


LOL, I am not the person to ask that question.  I beat to a different drum here.  In my opinion the answer is the ones that have earned it and deserve it, through teaching, competing, and never ending contributions, who have the Art in their heart  and not on their belts or wallets, finally ~ awarded for their accomplishments by their peers - friend and foe alike for the good of Ed Parker's American Kenpo System!

Not the ones who want it, need it, get it given to them by the good ole boy club or personal students, by someone not even a black belt holder,  granted thru an organization that sells promotions based on time rather than skill and contribution to the Art of American Kenpo, by another self promoted individual that only wants to accumulate names under their banner to show quantity rather than quality and skill.

But that's just my opinion..... I may be wrong.
 :asian:


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## Dun Ringill

Iron Dog hit it right on the head.  How many people on that list were students of the Big 3.  Also I think one would settle a lot of disputes by listing who has been at the art the longest in terms of what year did they begin.


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## roryneil

I don't understand. Right on the AKSC website it lists Mr. Trejo as a 9th but twice here he has been listed as a 10th. What's the deal? He seems like the last person that would don a 10th.


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## Elfan

> _Originally posted by roryneil _
> *I don't understand. Right on the AKSC website it lists Mr. Trejo as a 9th but twice here he has been listed as a 10th. What's the deal? He seems like the last person that would don a 10th. *



http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6215&perpage=15


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by roryneil _*
> I don't understand. Right on the AKSC website it lists Mr. Trejo as a 9th but twice here he has been listed as a 10th. What's the deal? He seems like the last person that would don a 10th.
> *



What makes you think he would be the last person to don a 10th?
Just curious.  For some those two Red Bars are awful cool looking I guess.

What is interesting was his acceptance to be "kicked into a rank" by someone that when Mr. Parker died was  2 or 3 degrees behind him.  Go figure.

I guess some are seeing Red.  

:asian:


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## jaybacca72

who kicked Mr.Trejo in?
later
jay


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jaybacca72 _*
> Who kicked Mr.Trejo in?
> later jay *



Mike Pick

:asian:


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## jazkiljok

kicked into rank at 10th?

that doesn't even sound right...

what's up with that?


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _*
> kicked into rank at 10th?
> that doesn't even sound right...
> what's up with that?
> *



A traditional Kenpo Initiation for any belt promotion by your instructor or promotional board members, also known as: Kiss of the Dragon, Birth of Pain, or Promotional kick, punch, or strike (not meant to be damaging but ceremonial).

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *A traditional Kenpo Initiation for any belt promotion by your instructor or promotional board members, also known as: Kiss of the Dragon, Birth of Pain, or Promotional kick, punch, or strike (not meant to be damaging but ceremonial).
> 
> :asian: *



Mr. C, I believe he was talking about actually getting kicked to the rank of 10th degree.


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## jazkiljok

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Mr. C, I believe he was talking about actually getting kicked to the rank of 10th degree. *



exactly-- just doesn't  seem appropriate for the rank.

anyone else had this done?


peace


Jaz K.:asian:


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## Klondike93

Prehaps this is one reason he prefers not to wear it, that and his respect for Mr. Parker.  


:asian: 

Klondike (aka Chuck)


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> *Prehaps this is one reason he prefers not to wear it, that and his respect for Mr. Parker.  :asian: Klondike (aka Chuck)
> *



Who said he wasn't wearing it?

Well, if it were me in the exact same scenario ...... I would not allow the event to take place in the first place.  

I won't allow anyone to use me to elevate themselves.

:asian:


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## jazkiljok

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *
> 
> Well, if it were me in the exact same scenario ...... I would not allow the event to take place in the first place.
> 
> I won't allow anyone to use me to elevate themselves.
> 
> :asian: *




i think i'll have to get out my Captain Kenpo Decoder Ring to help me read between those lines...


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _*
> I think i'll have to get out my Captain Kenpo Decoder Ring to help me read between those lines...
> *



Do what ya gotta do....... :rofl: 

:asian:


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## bahenlaura

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *... and to 9th's honoring the memory of SGM Parker:
> 
> Steven LaBounty
> Tom Kelly, Sr.
> 
> Oss,
> -Michael
> Kenpo-Texas.com *




Thank you Sir.


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## headkick

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Mr. C, I believe he was talking about actually getting kicked to the rank of 10th degree. *



Man, that's a helluva kick!  I gotta go through nine stripes!  

I'm off to do more ab work!   

R


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## Sigung86

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Who said he wasn't wearing it?
> 
> Well, if it were me in the exact same scenario ...... I would not allow the event to take place in the first place.
> 
> I won't allow anyone to use me to elevate themselves.
> 
> :asian: *



Preach on Dennis ...  I'm in the Amen section of the church! :lol:

Being an outsider (Tracy's), I looked at the over all picture.  And I have to say that it would be disturbing if I were in EPAK.  So many tenths and so many chasing after it that it means nothing anymore.

Have to say, and probably will get in trouble here for the observation, that when Frank Trejo let Mike Pick "kick him in" for his tenth, it was a ceremonial kick and custom that just as ceremonially, yet somewhat more realistically placed Frank Trejo directly under the political sphere and control of Mike Pick, who, as I understand from his old website, one day realized he should be a tenth degree, and so, put it on.

Interesting to me that so few tenth degrees seem to have any respect for the rank.

In American Kenpo, the politics of the double red are so rampant that, to me, the acquisition of it, even if I were to be suddenly thrust into the position, would be ludicrous.  I think that the double red now, simply equates with capo di tutti capi, or family head, and no longer has validity as a martial rank.

Please feel free to shoot flames at me, or go to www.karatemudhut.com and call me silly names.

Dan Farmer
RokuDan, 
Tracy Kenpo


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## Kenpo Yahoo

-Who promoted Ed Parker Sr. to 10th degree?  
was it not a form of self promotion?  Where did the ranking system come from?  Somebody at some point self promoted themselves otherwise their would be no rank, so it's somewhat silly to argue over.

-Wasn't Mr. P a creator and an innovator in the art of kenpo?
-Didn't he introduce new ways of thinking and doing things to many martial artists?
-Didn't he continually redefine himself and his art?
-Didn't he continually change and improve the way he performed his art?

I would have to say YES to each of those questions.  How many 10ths out there can honestly answer yes about themselves to those questions?  How can anyone who is still doing kenpo the same way they were doing it at the time of Mr. Parkers death say yes to any of those questions?


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## Hollywood1340

Here I go again....
I'm not a kenpoist, but a Judo/Hapkido Sylist. Dr. Jigaro Kano, had no rank, as he was founder. He normaly wore a white belt. After his death the Kodokan promoted him to twelth. I've never heard anyone disagreeing with his rank or comparing him to anyone else. I've always wondered why that is.
(Ducks back under cover)
P.S. If you're gonna do slings and arrows, please give them to Jean-Louise at the the door, but do so quickly, as his chest fills up rather fast, reservations recommonded.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> *(Ducks back under cover)*



That's right. U better D & C. I never got my custom avatar.
:cuss:


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## Hollywood1340

Right, you and Shinzu. I'll get right on it. (Thinks) I think I can find your "EPAK Pretty Boy" pic around here somewhere......


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## kenpo_cory

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *-Who promoted Ed Parker Sr. to 10th degree?
> was it not a form of self promotion?  Where did the ranking system come from?  Somebody at some point self promoted themselves otherwise their would be no rank, so it's somewhat silly to argue over.
> 
> -Wasn't Mr. P a creator and an innovator in the art of kenpo?
> -Didn't he introduce new ways of thinking and doing things to many martial artists?
> -Didn't he continually redefine himself and his art?
> -Didn't he continually change and improve the way he performed his art?
> 
> I would have to say YES to each of those questions.  How many 10ths out there can honestly answer yes about themselves to those questions?  How can anyone who is still doing kenpo the same way they were doing it at the time of Mr. Parkers death say yes to any of those questions? *



I have to agree here. Nobody ever brings up these facts, just complains about others rank. So, anyone care to share where Mr. Parker recieved his promotions past 1st balack?


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by kenpo_cory _
> *I have to agree here. Nobody ever brings up these facts, just complains about others rank. So, anyone care to share where Mr. Parker recieved his promotions past 1st balack? *



Mr. Conatser has answered this question 2 or 3 times on this board. I don't know how quickly you can find it but it's on here.


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## jeffkyle

I like Mr. C's story about him asking Mr. Parker about why he promoted himself to 10th.  That is a very good story.  It is on here somewhere.  :asian:


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## Sigung86

> _Originally posted by kenpo_cory _
> *I have to agree here. Nobody ever brings up these facts, just complains about others rank. So, anyone care to share where Mr. Parker recieved his promotions past 1st balack? *



Cory, if you are directing that at me ... I'm not talking about SGM Parker or where his rank may or may not have come from.  SGM Parker was a one in a million (plus or minus).  Back in those halcyon days, you could do just about anything you wanted to that you were bad enough to get away with.

What I am referring to is the way that there are so many tenths, and I'm not seeing a lot of innovation and upgrade.  Like I said, the 10th degree seems to have taken  on the meaning of a family head and all the "respect and power" that goes with it.  It is less a martial rank and more one of politics and money now.  And, it almost seems like folks are selling their souls to sew, staple, or iron on the double red.  The highest rank in the system is supposed to be for someone special... Someone who is "The Leader".  NO offense intended to any of the current crop of 10th degrees, but with all the internicine warfare, politics, one-upmanship, and what-have-you, I haven't seent that person yet.

If I'm raining on your favorite 10th, then I apologize for your hurt feelings, but that person just isn't out there yet... And, unfortunately, may never be for American Kenpo.

To be the only tenth degree when the system is up and coming, is one thing.  Twenty or thirty years after the fact, and ten years or less after the passing of the SGM, and you suddenly get an enlightenment from Mount Olympus, just doesn't get it.  Having all your students put a 10th on you just doesn't get it.  Having someone kick you in for 10th ...  Just doesn't get it.  The curent trend is building a Kenpo LaLa Land ... But .... what the Hell do I know?

Dan Farmer


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## kenpo_cory

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Cory, if you are directing that at me ...
> 
> If I'm raining on your favorite 10th, then I apologize for your hurt feelings,
> Dan Farmer *



Nope, not directed at you. Thanks for the apology but no hurt feelings Mr. Farmer, just looking for answers and still haven't found em.


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## Sigung86

> _Originally posted by kenpo_cory _
> *Nope, not directed at you. Thanks for the apology but no hurt feelings Mr. Farmer, just looking for answers and still haven't found em. *



Thanks Cory ... Me neither. :lol:

Dan


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## Disco

Please forgive my ignorance, but are all these 10th Dans under the same style or are there that many variations of Kenpo/Kempo?


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## jazkiljok

> _Originally posted by kenpo_cory _
> *Nope, not directed at you. Thanks for the apology but no hurt feelings Mr. Farmer, just looking for answers and still haven't found em. *



Ed Parker received rank up to 5th by William Chow (mostly leaps 1,3,5)-- he then self promoted to 7th. Sijo Emperado promoted him to 8th and from there on it was again Ed Parker.

William Chow did attempt to promote him to 10th but Ed Parker declined by reasoning that as it was his own self created system that no one but himself was qualified to ascertain his status in that system.

Ed Parker never wore stripes till 7th.

could be wrong-- perhaps Doc or Goldendragon could verify or correct?


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Disco _*
> Please forgive my ignorance, but are all these 10th Dans under the same style or are there that many variations of Kenpo/Kempo?
> *


It is quite confusing isn't it.  LOL

No, these men all studied under Ed Parker at one time or other, but when he died, they all took their own agendas and started their own groups (don't get me wrong, many are outstanding and unique Kenpoists but.........).  Rather than look to seniors that have gone before them or band together in a group to form a unified platform, then choose a leader, they each decided to either promote themselves, had or accepted some rank from another kenpo organization (that was formed the same way), their students, some other group, notable instructor, or mail order outfit to  seemingly validate what they wanted to wear.

The 2 Bar syndrome is alive and well all over the world now.  If you aren't a 10th in Kenpo today, you're a nobody.............:rofl: 

But that's just my opinion........ I might be wrong....

:asian:


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## Klondike93

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *The 2 Bar syndrome is alive and well all over the world now.  If you aren't a 10th in Kenpo today, you're a nobody.............:rofl:
> 
> But that's just my opinion........ I might be wrong.... *



It might just be me, but I don't think your wrong on this one   


:asian: 

Klondike (aka Chuck)


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## Hollywood1340

> If you aren't a 10th in Kenpo today, you're a nobody............


 I know a few "Undergrands" that get around pretty well, and some have even started their own groups. And a  few of these answer their own mail, and respond to requests within reason, then pay first class postage. A rare breed. Though some may think them a few techniques short of a curriculum, we love em 
Heh, I coined a new word. Undergrand-An EPAK studnet who is below grandmaster, but above first dan. (Note: Not to be confused with how much money some fools pay for first dan, that would be an Undergranddan, see also fraud)


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo_*
> Who promoted Ed Parker Sr. to 10th degree?
> *



Go check this out........
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=117876;article=70



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo_*
> Was it not a form of self promotion?  Where did the ranking system come from?  Somebody at some point self promoted themselves otherwise their would be no rank, so it's somewhat silly to argue over.
> *



Yes, but with a long list of accomplishments not just regurgitations or rearrangements.

Originally the Japanese (you all know that), but then the different colors evolved as the system took on it's own uniqueness.

Yes, the rank and file had to start way back with someone........ just like in the military.



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo_*
> -Wasn't Mr. P a creator and an innovator in the art of kenpo?
> -Didn't he introduce new ways of thinking and doing things to many martial artists?
> -Didn't he continually redefine himself and his art?
> -Didn't he continually change and improve the way he performed his art?
> *



Yes, again .... everyone knows the story.  Ed Parker was given the "Keys" to the system but then he went above and beyond like any "Founder", creator, or innovator and forged new steel!!  Who came up with the:
* Universal Pattern and all it's uses
* Web of Knowledge and all it's components
* Gathered all the Principles and added NUMEROUS 
  new ones!
* Spawned new horizons like Forward and Reverse 
  Motion
* Scientifically organized the "Analytical Study 
  of Motion"
* Who applied "LOGIC" to the Martial Arts and 
  forged a pragmatic approach vs. traditional!
on and on and on.............



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo_*
> How many 10ths out there can honestly answer yes about themselves to those questions?
> *



NONE  ~~ all of us are trying to continue the Art as it was shared with each of us in our own way.  Some do it more humbly....... others Bolder..... yet others with greed!  Bottom Line is.... that we all are just re inventing the wheel in most cases.  
I have seen nothing NEW from anyone.  I have seen a lot of interesting teaching methods, drills, explanations and developments to add to the various different areas of the Art, but nothing "new".



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo_*
> How can anyone who is still doing kenpo the same way they were doing it at the time of Mr. Parkers death say yes to any of those questions? *



They can't!

But then again, that's just my opinion..... I might be wrong.

:asian:


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *
> 
> The 2 Bar syndrome is alive and well all over the world now.  If you aren't a 10th in Kenpo today, you're a nobody.............:rofl:
> 
> But that's just my opinion........ I might be wrong....
> 
> :asian: *



Well,  at least the nobodys out number the somebodys.  LOL!  :rofl:


----------



## GouRonin

You know, good stuff is good stuff no matter where you learn it.

A 10th degree isn't gonna be with me when I need to use what I know any more than a 3rd degree.

Heck, truth be told I still use some of the principles that Dennis shared with me in a conversation when I'm grappling.

Of course I would never tell him that because... oh... wait... d@mn...


----------



## jazkiljok

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *
> 
> Have to say, and probably will get in trouble here for the observation, that when Frank Trejo let Mike Pick "kick him in" for his tenth, it was a ceremonial kick and custom that just as ceremonially, yet somewhat more realistically placed Frank Trejo directly under the political sphere and control of Mike Pick, who, as I understand from his old website, one day realized he should be a tenth degree, and so, put it on.
> *



what's with all these veiled criticisms and concealed messages buried in diplomatic mumbo jumbo- why don't you just tell us what you really think!...:rofl:


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

I'm not sure why, but I was under the impression that Mike Pick was one of Mr. Parkers highest ranking students at the time of his death.  Yet, I read somewhere else that he was kicked out when he was a fourth and decided to make the jump himself.

Can anybody clarify this?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> I'm not sure why, but I was under the impression that Mike Pick was one of Mr. Parkers highest ranking students at the time of his death.   Yet, I read somewhere else that he was kicked out when he was a fourth and decided to make the jump himself.
> *



I guess it depends on the source of your information.   He certainly has been around for quite a while.  Many who were there when he was remember the correct story such as Huk Planas, Tom Kelly, Steve LaBounty, etc.  He WAS a long time student.   At the time of Ed Parkers death however, he (as far as belt rank goes) was a 4th (listed on the last IKKA newsletter) or possibly a 5th (possibly a mistake or an on the spot promotion - which Mr. Parker had been known to do) as once introduced by Mr. Parker at a seminar with Skip Hancock present.

He never liked to wear rank, always citing the Ed Parker story of Black is Black, yet when Mr. Parker died, after a short bit of time a letter was sent out with his rank proclamation.

Now he heads his own organization.

:asian:


----------



## Elfan

At that time 4th was the last belt containing curriculum, correct?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Elfan _*
> At that time 4th was the last belt containing curriculum, correct? *



3rd


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> *Ed Parker received rank up to 5th by William Chow (mostly leaps 1,3,5)-- he then self promoted to 7th. Sijo Emperado promoted him to 8th and from there on it was again Ed Parker.
> 
> William Chow did attempt to promote him to 10th but Ed Parker declined by reasoning that as it was his own self created system that no one but himself was qualified to ascertain his status in that system.
> 
> Ed Parker never wore stripes till 7th.
> 
> could be wrong-- perhaps Doc or Goldendragon could verify or correct? *


Right on the money.


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *I'm not sure why, but I was under the impression that Mike Pick was one of Mr. Parkers highest ranking students at the time of his death.  Yet, I read somewhere else that he was kicked out when he was a fourth and decided to make the jump himself.
> 
> Can anybody clarify this? *


correct


----------



## jdmills

I studied under Joe Palanzo back in 1987.  He was a 7th at the time.

Jim


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jdmills _
> *I studied under Joe Palanzo back in 1987.  He was a 7th at the time.
> 
> Jim *


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jdmills _
> *I studied under Joe Palanzo back in 1987.  He was a 7th at the time.
> 
> Jim *


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jdmills _*
> I studied under Joe Palanzo back in 1987.  He was a 7th at the time.  Jim
> *



Who was a 7th in 1987?


----------



## Roland

...he gave Frank Trejo a 10th last year sometime now.
Frank decided not to wear it, same as Tom Kelly.


----------



## jdmills

Correct.  Joe Palanzo was a 7th in 1987.  Sorry if my post was not sequential and got a bit confusing.

Jim


----------



## jdmills

I've heard that Ed Parker did not even like belt ranks in the (very) early days.  Can anyone confirm or deny?

Jim


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Roland _*
> ...he gave Frank Trejo a 10th last year sometime now.  Frank decided not to wear it, same as Tom Kelly.
> *



That is correct.  Joe Palanzo presented Tom Kelly and Frank Trejo a 10th Degree from Palanzo and the WKKA, however, Tom Kelly politely refused it due to the fact that Steve LaBounty (his original instructor and continued close friend) being a 9th Degree, so as not to disrespect him.

Frank aparently decided not to take the belt as well at that time, out of respect for Tom Kelly (as I understand it).

Possibly, conditions and attitudes have changed.
:asian:


----------



## SingingTiger

> _Originally posted by jdmills _
> *I've heard that Ed Parker did not even like belt ranks in the (very) early days.  Can anyone confirm or deny?
> 
> Jim *



From page 97 of Mr. Parker's "Infinite Insights, vol. 1", published in 1982:

"I will now attempt to justify the merits of the *BELT RANKING SYSTEM* which I was greatly opposed to during my early years of teaching.  As long as a system, whatever the system might be, properly categorizes all of its basic elements into a systematic and progressive order, where one precept can build upon the other, then and then alone can they direct their system into proper graduating levels."

Rich


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by SingingTiger _
> *From page 97 of Mr. Parker's "Infinite Insights, vol. 1", published in 1982:
> 
> "I will now attempt to justify the merits of the BELT RANKING SYSTEM which I was greatly opposed to during my early years of teaching.  As long as a system, whatever the system might be, properly categorizes all of its basic elements into a systematic and progressive order, where one precept can build upon the other, then and then alone can they direct their system into proper graduating levels."
> 
> Rich *


I think that I had mentioned before, Mr. Parker didn't even wear stripes until seventh. When he began to expand into the commercial area, many began to receive rank over time for many of the reasons already mentioned. It than became important for Ed Parker to display his rank relative to students who were now wearing theirs. For him to not would diminish those who did. You'd be surprized how big a deal it became to wear his stripes when taking pictures with students. I don't wear striped belts and neither do my students but, whenever I go to take a picture with a visitor in uniform or at a seminar, they always ask for the "other belt." I don't like it because I think it should be about me the man and my skill and knowledge, but I do understand having gone through that transition with my own black belts, who had to be weened from the markings. They still want me to wear the stripes in magazine articles, and of course that means they can wear theirs.


----------



## True2Kenpo

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *I don't like it because I think it should be about me the man and my skill and knowledge*



Dr. Chapel,

I completely agree sir!  I think some people overlook the person and their eyes go directly to how many stripes...  It reminds me of meeting a gentleman by the name of John Bahr in North Carolina.  I visited his school and took a class and he was just awesome.  His skill and knowledge spoken louder than any stripe would!

Great saying sir!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


----------



## jdmills

I agree.

In the late 80's I attended a seminar that was by Benny Urquidez.  Someone asked him what degree black belt he was.  Mr.  Urquidez laughed and said that there were good black belts and bad black belts, and that we needed to judge for ourselves which of those categories any given individual fell in.

Benny Urquidez later gave a very brief synopsis of his credentials (beginning I think with studying wrestling when he was 4).  I believe that he was trying to say that he had studied so many different styles of martial arts that his style was difficult to classify.  After he was done with the synopsis, he said "so, what would you call me?"  I think the black belt standing behind put it best when he spontaneously responded - "Sir".


----------



## headkick

> _Originally posted by jdmills _
> *I agree.
> 
> In the late 80's I attended a seminar that was by Benny Urquidez.  Someone asked him what degree black belt he was.  Mr.  Urquidez laughed and said that there were good black belts and bad black belts, and that we needed to judge for ourselves which of those categories any given individual fell in.
> 
> Benny Urquidez later gave a very brief synopsis of his credentials (beginning I think with studying wrestling when he was 4).  I believe that he was trying to say that he had studied so many different styles of martial arts that his style was difficult to classify.  After he was done with the synopsis, he said "so, what would you call me?"  I think the black belt standing behind put it best when he spontaneously responded - "Sir". *



I've had the wonderful opportunity to take a few short (1.5 hour) seminars with Benny and aside from calling him Sensei (his preference), I think 'Da Man' comes to mind.  The man is simply amazing.   At one of the Vegas seminars, Tommie Chavies (another amazing martial artist, kenpoist and teacher) said he had seen Benny walking through the casino and a couple of guys bumped into him and Benny apologized.  The guys kept walking with no clue as to how close they came had Benny not been the type of man he is.  He has nothing to prove to anyone other than himself, so he has no ego on display for anyone else.  

Great guy and incredibly knowledgeable and eager to share that.


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by jdmills _
> *I agree.
> 
> In the late 80's I attended a seminar that was by Benny Urquidez.  Someone asked him what degree black belt he was.  Mr.  Urquidez laughed and said that there were good black belts and bad black belts, and that we needed to judge for ourselves which of those categories any given individual fell in.
> 
> Benny Urquidez later gave a very brief synopsis of his credentials (beginning I think with studying wrestling when he was 4).  I believe that he was trying to say that he had studied so many different styles of martial arts that his style was difficult to classify.  After he was done with the synopsis, he said "so, what would you call me?"  I think the black belt standing behind put it best when he spontaneously responded - "Sir". *


That's a great story, and it sounds just like Benny.


----------



## jeffkyle

Very interesting story!  Makes me want to meet him even more!


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Doc _*
> That's a great story, and it sounds just like Benny.
> *



I agree..... and yes, it does reak of his personality.

He is so humble and lovesssssssssssssssss to hit (especially guys bigger than himself).  .......... and I might add... he NEVER whines~!!!

:asian:


----------



## Seig

I thought he dreamed of opening a mouth piece concession stand at tournaments in Europe.


----------



## Wes Idol

There are letters between Pick and Parker that are quite private, but well describe how Pick quit the IKKA for a short time, but then him and Parker mended their fence.  Also, I've seen another letter typed and signed (not stamped) by Ed Parker in the late 1980's.  Parker states that Pick started at age 10 in 1957, and continues as a student to today.  Also Parker refers to Pick as one of his most proficient, humble and longest standing students on the mats.

In the mid the late 90's many people approached Pick and thought he should put on a 10th...Pick would only do it by someone who was his senior...that means Tuiolosega, or Sullivan.  After which time that Tuiolosega kicked Pick, Pick put down the bottle for good and believed he had a great responsibility put before him...to teach and behave as an example for others in training.  If you talk to his son, Michael Jr. will testify how much has changed for the good in his Father, since Pick Sr. accepted this responsibility.

Lastly, I was there many nights before and the night of Pick kicking Trejo.  Pick by no means was using Trejo for anything.  Pick simply thought that Trejo has offered up so much of his body and spirit to this art, it was time.  Pick has never brought it up again, nor has he asked Trejo to do anything but to just continue being Trejo.

On a final note, I know Trejo very well.  If anyone tells you that he would allow anyone to use him for their own political posturing by way a 10th black promotion...that person probably doesn't know Trejo very well.  Lastly, Trejo and Pick have a very old and long standing relationship...if you knew of it, as I do, you would never assume such a happening. 

Respectfully, 

WI, HI
UKS


----------



## Goldendragon7

You do have q right to your own opinion.

:asian:


----------



## Greggers69

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _
> *There are letters between Pick and Parker that are quite private, but well describe how Pick quit the IKKA for a short time, but then him and Parker mended their fence.  Also, I've seen another letter typed and signed (not stamped) by Ed Parker in the late 1980's.  Parker states that Pick started at age 10 in 1957, and continues as a student to today.  Also Parker refers to Pick as one of his most proficient, humble and longest standing students on the mats.
> 
> In the mid the late 90's many people approached Pick and thought he should put on a 10th...Pick would only do it by someone who was his senior...that means Tuiolosega, or Sullivan.  After which time that Tuiolosega kicked Pick, Pick put down the bottle for good and believed he had a great responsibility put before him...to teach and behave as an example for others in training.  If you talk to his son, Michael Jr. will testify how much has changed for the good in his Father, since Pick Sr. accepted this responsibility.
> 
> Lastly, I was there many nights before and the night of Pick kicking Trejo.  Pick by no means was using Trejo for anything.  Pick simply thought that Trejo has offered up so much of his body and spirit to this art, it was time.  Pick has never brought it up again, nor has he asked Trejo to do anything but to just continue being Trejo.
> 
> On a final note, I know Trejo very well.  If anyone tells you that he would allow anyone to use him for their own political posturing by way a 10th black promotion...that person probably doesn't know Trejo very well.  Lastly, Trejo and Pick have a very old and long standing relationship...if you knew of it, as I do, you would never assume such a happening.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> WI, HI
> UKS *



I don't think it's anyones place to question Mr. Pick or Mr.  Trejo  on thier advancement.  Just as it's not my place to say the same for  Mr. Mills:asian:


----------



## Sigung86

Sorry Wes ... That is too home spun.


----------



## cdhall

For what it is worth, at Mr. Duffy's Oct 2002 camp Mr. Trejo talked about meeting Mr. Pick and sparring Mr. Pick for the first time when Mr. Trejo was new to the Pasadena studio and how their relationship developed after that.

If I recall correctly, Mr. Trejo was an Orange Belt at the time and Mr. Pick was a Black Belt.  I don't think Mr. Trejo mentioned the year.


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *For what it is worth, at Mr. Duffy's Oct 2002 camp Mr. Trejo talked about meeting Mr. Pick and sparring Mr. Pick for the first time when Mr. Trejo was new to the Pasadena studio and how their relationship developed after that.
> 
> If I recall correctly, Mr. Trejo was an Orange Belt at the time and Mr. Pick was a Black Belt.  I don't think Mr. Trejo mentioned the year. *



And Mr. Tatum was a green as I recall (when he told us that story)...


----------



## Self_Destruct

It's about time the truth came out.


----------



## Kroy

What ranks would these guys have if Mr. Parker was still alive? I bet that list would be none existant.:asian:


----------



## jdmills

I think, please let me know if I am correct, that there were a handful (3-5) 8ths when Mr. Parker died.  Is that correct?

I personally can't imagine Mr. Parker promoting anyone to 10th, so if you only feel that a person can hold a rank that was awarded by Mr. Parker, then I don't think anyone would be above 9th. 

Jim


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by jdmills _
> *I think, please let me know if I am correct, that there were a handful (3-5) 8ths when Mr. Parker died.  Is that correct?
> 
> I personally can't imagine Mr. Parker promoting anyone to 10th, so if you only feel that a person can hold a rank that was awarded by Mr. Parker, then I don't think anyone would be above 9th.
> 
> Jim *



There were Twelve 7ths at the time of Mr. Parker's Death.  
According to the AKSC site which did some checking into this once upon a time
http://www.aksc.org/html/parker_blackbelts.shtml

He also did not promote anyone within his own system beyond 7th as far as I know.
:asian:


----------



## Kroy

Out of all of these 10th degrees, who would you consider to be the true hier to AK. Try to be non bias in your answer.


----------



## jazkiljok

> _Originally posted by Kroy _
> *Out of all of these 10th degrees, who would you consider to be the true hier to AK. Try to be non bias in your answer. *



well, that's easy- an heir to grandmastership by tradition would be a family member. that would make Ed Parker Jr. the true heir.

now if you mean who's got dibs on being the AK grandpoopah because of seniority, time with Mr. Parker, talent, understanding and evolution of the system, etc-- you can feel free to  pick any of the list who fits your definition and requirements.

but considering that AK isn't a traditional system- there isn't a need for heir's etc-- it is in some way even detrimental to the growth and development of Kenpo-- it is obvious now by many accounts by Seniors that Ed Parker did control the flow of knowledge-- all these guys out there now pursuing AK and developing their own drills, teks, while refining and adding to principles and concepts would probably have been restrained from doing so without having to go outside of AK to do it (like Dave German did for example).


peace


----------



## Kroy

Let me put it this way. Who is the most sought after Kenpo Master?:asian:


----------



## Michael Billings

I know that 7th was the highest promoted rank in 1990.  How about in the Tracy lineage, or elsewhere?  Just curious as to how high they had gone as of 1990.  

I am also curious about the systems that were clearly a derivative of Ed Parker himself, regardless of whether it splintered during the Chinese Kenpo phase, of after, when EPAK became truly an American Martial Art.

Leilani Parker saw the IKKA as being a family legacy.  It was her and the children's source of income and support.  She decided on promotions.  She had Regional Directors, not being one, I cannot speak to whether she followed their advice or not.  I assume this was a piece of the fragmentation of Kenpo in general.

Edmund was not a Black Belt at the time of his Dad's death.  He has spoken about this on many occasions.  He pursued and attained the rank through Ron Chapel (I believe), but trained with a plethora of the Who's Who of Kenpo prior to Black.

It is confusing as to whom, and why certain individuals were promoted and others were not following Mr. Parker's death.  Suffice it to say; in a community already rent by grief and some dissention, those who dissented did not get promoted.

I am not being sarcastic or facetious when I say that this causes me and others, sadness and emphasizes the loss of SGM Parker all the more.  

Oss,
-Michael


----------



## cdhall

Mr. Billings,

Did you want me to comment on some or all of your question?
I don't know too much more than I posted.
:uhoh:


----------



## Michael Billings

I wondered if you had any idea specifically about the number of Kenpoist who had an 8th or higher as of Mr. Parker's death.  I know your post was correct as far as IKKA Black Belts: i.e.

Dave Hebler
Steve LaBounty
Tom Kelly
Frank Trejo
Bob White
Larry Tatum
Chuck Sullivan
John Conway (Deceased )
Richard Planas
Joe Polanzo
Ron Chap'el
Arturo Petit [deceased]

But I was curious as to people like the Tracy's, or other lineages that started with Mr. Parker?

-Michael


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I wondered if you had any idea specifically about the number of Kenpoist who had an 8th or higher as of Mr. Parker's death...But I was curious as to people like the Tracy's, or other lineages that started with Mr. Parker?
> 
> -Michael *



No sir.  Only Nick Cerio.  I don't know anyone else.  I think Mr. Idol said something about people who were recognized by Mr. Parker.  He might have some type of list.

Sorry for the confusion.
 

P.S. I just wrote this and got "unlogged" and lost it.  I think I may have changed a browser setting recently, but my whole Operating System freaked out yesterday so the events may well be related.


----------



## Wes Idol

If that is not your last name, my apology...this is my effort to greet you well.

Cerio joined the IKKA already claiming a very high rank.  He was allowed in the Association with his rank, but was not "promoted" by Parker to 9th.  Elvis was given an 8th degree by Parker (I think an honorary, but am not sure).  Elvis did a great deal to put Kenpo on the map, publicity-wise.  My original instructor actually did mat time with E and said "he was fast."

Regarding lists of 7th degrees promoted by Parker (and there are many lists out there)...I believe some were promoted by Parker and some were not.  To add more confusion to this end of organization and centralized knowlegde, I believe there are even some that were promoted to 7th that have not shared it with anyone, so they are not on any list.

Kenpo is not my business, it is one of my passions and tools for living.  I gain no benefit is posting what I have, I simply think the truth matters.

Respectfully, 

WI, HI
UKS


----------



## cdhall

Mr. Idol,

Thank you for your courtesy.  I am Doug Hall so except for the fact that you outrank me, Mr. Hall is accurate.  You can call me Doug if you like.

However, the only other info on Mr. Cerio that I have is that he has the only IKKA rank certificate with an expiration date on it.

Mr. Hebler has also said in the past that neither his nor Elvis' rank certificates said "Honorary" on them or had any such indication that they were not real.

My reading has led me to believe that Mr. Parker may well have considered some certificates as "recognition/acceptance of some other rank" and some certificates as "promotions within his system" but that he did not deliniate these at all.

I may PM you for more info but any other info you have on this phenomenon is appreciated.  Thanks again.

P.S. If you have any tips on how to study Kenpo in Hawaii and make a decent living, please feel free to share them with me as well. I have a friend out there who has invited me to stay with them if I can make it out there.  I'll be sure to look you up.  Does your studio have a website?  I understand you may not have a studio of your own, but I assume that you study with someone out there somewhere.  I don't know how many EPAK schools are in Hawaii.  I know Mr. Sepulveda used to own one or the only one at that time.  Thanks again.  
 :asian:

P.P.S. I also know what you mean about a list of "7ths" even Mr. LaBounty and the rest of the AKSC did not know who all the 7ths were back in 1994.  So I fully understand that this was not any type of "brotherhood" with a mailing list or a secret handshake or anything of that nature.  I thought it was odd, but I don't know much about what Mr. Parker did and said and how he ran his operation.  But I like to hear about it and there is  a lot of good EPAK/IKKA info available to us here on MartialTalk.  We are lucky here to have some participants that spent a lot of time with Mr. Parker.  Thanks again.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> Cerio joined the IKKA already claiming a very high rank.  He was allowed in the Association with his rank, but was not "promoted" by Parker to 9th.
> *


That is correct, he was granted a cross over ranking assuming that he would be a productive member but that ended when he proved otherwise.



> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> Regarding lists of 7th degrees promoted by Parker (and there are many lists out there)...I believe some were promoted by Parker and some were not.  To add more confusion to this end of organization and centralized knowlegde, I believe there are even some that were promoted to 7th that have not shared it with anyone, so they are not on any list.
> *



But Mike Pick was not one of those!



> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> Kenpo is not my business, it is one of my passions and tools for living.  I gain no benefit is posting what I have, I simply think the truth matters.
> *



I do as well, but some have chosen to try to force themselves on others and demand by proclamation, rank, attention and acceptance.

:asian:


----------



## Wes Idol

Doug, my name is Wes and you can PM me anytime.  I live and train in Los Angeles under Bryan Hawkins.  Our website is http://www.uks-kenpo.com

Anytime you are in town, let me know.  I also travel to train with Mike Pick.  It is accurate to say Pick is my source of Kenpo Knife exposure.


DC, I never brought up Pick's name, but since you have I invite you to research that statement a little.  Sepulveda has told Marcus Buonfiglio (Marcus was an old time black belt of John S. before he started with Pick) that Pick was to be promoted to 8th by Parker in January of 1991.  Pick has shared with me that Parker promoted him to 7th before his death, but since rank has never been a big deal, it has never been an issue for Pick to bring up to anyone. 

For me personally, Pick has always been truthful with me.  If the time comes where his statements are proven false, I will be the first to acknowledge it...........as I have with others.........and you know some of the others I'm talking about.

Your friend, 
WI


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> DC, I never brought up Pick's name, but since you have I invite you to research that statement a little.
> WI *



Thanks for the advice....... I did!  This topic has came up before on another Forum and was put to rest, but with a couple of other names.

After talking to Mr. Sepulveda and Dian Tanaka (who was the one on the prior forum whose name was also mentioned), neither know anything what so ever of what you say you were told by M Buonfiglio or about what you are talking about!!!!!!!  These people that you mentioned (I didn't) say that there was no such discussion!  This is a rumor at best.



> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> Pick has shared with me that Parker promoted him to 7th before his death, but since rank has never been a big deal, it has never been an issue for Pick to bring up to anyone.
> WI *



Uh Huh.



> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> For me personally, Pick has always been truthful with me.
> WI *



Uh Huh.

:asian:


----------



## Wes Idol

No need to yell, DC.  If you feel content with calling Marcus Buonfiglio a liar, so be it.  If you feel comfortable with calling Mike Picka liar, so be it.  Buonfiglio isn't the only person who was at the studio the day Sepulveda was talking about the up coming Pick promotion.

WI


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> No need to yell, DC.
> WI *



Who is yelling???????  Not me!  (where do you get your material) lol



> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> If you feel content with calling Marcus Buonfiglio a liar, so be it.
> WI *



I didn't call anyone a liar.   I just did as you asked and called the people involved and asked about the comments that he made.  They disagreed.... maybe he misunderstood what he heard? 

I should warn you ....... DON'T try to put words in my mouth for me, you need to research your facts better.



> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> If you feel comfortable with calling Mike Picka liar, so be it.
> WI *



Once again, you are incorrect......... show me where I said that!  Are you trying to start something with me....... LOL well, think again, go ask your instructor about you are doing and saying.  BTW have you seen a certificate for his 7th & what is the number on it?  If that is a fact, then I need to add him to the true "known" list of actual Ed Parker promoted 7ths.



> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> Buonfiglio isn't the only person who was at the studio the day Sepulveda was talking about the up coming Pick promotion.
> WI *



Ok, so what?  Have you talked to Bob Liles?

:asian:


----------



## Wes Idol

You quote me concerning what Pick has told me and how I feel he's never lied to me...and after both quotes you put "uh huh" which was all prefaced with you claiming my story invalid with many "!!!!!!'s."

If your going publically post such statements, at least stand behind your words.  And regarding Bryan Hawkins and my sources...he knows me very well and my sources are fine.

WI


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> You quote me concerning what Pick has told me and how I feel he's never lied to me...and after both quotes you put "uh huh" which was all prefaced with you claiming my story invalid with many "!!!!!!'s."
> WI *



Those "Uh Huh's only mean I hear what you say.  

Concerning the topic, the individuals that were asked about what you claim just do not agree with what you say which is what the !!!!!!! are about!   "Not" an invalidation of what "YOUR" story (which I'm sure you are quoting as you recall it being told to you) is but rather a difference of opinion or question of what you are actually saying from those that were there.

If you are going to continue to converse with me. Please don't mis-quote what I am saying or incorrectly interpret it to your wording.



> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> If your going publically post such statements, at least stand behind your words.  And regarding Bryan Hawkins and my sources...he knows me very well and my sources are fine.
> WI *



How am I not standing behind my statements?  I called up the individual you posted and asked about the statement.  I posted the results of my call.  I stand behind that and the people I talked to.  What more do you want. :idunno: 

:asian:


----------



## Wes Idol

I don't buy it.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> I don't buy it.
> *



I'm not selling.

:karate:


----------



## Nightingale

Hello, Everyone!

This is just a reminder to please keep the discussion polite and respectful. 

Thanks!!!


:asian:

Nightingale8472
MT Moderator


----------



## Klondike93

> This is just a reminder to please keep the discussion polite and respectful



I don't see a problem with the discussion so far and I would like to hear more please.


:asian: 


Klondike (aka Chuck)


----------



## Bob Hubbard

We had a complaint about a possible concern, saw a little possible heat, just wanted to "head it off early".


:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

Ahhhhh, understood.


:asian: 

Klondike (aka Chuck)


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz_*
> We had a complaint about a possible concern, saw a little possible heat, just wanted to "head it off early".
> *



wow,:rofl: possible heat, or concern?  hmmmmmm No problem here, I try to always be polite and straight forward.  I see no disrespect either.  I just post what I know and have been informed from other prominent individuals (I even posted their names here geeze how truthful can you get).

"Tigers and Deer don't stroll together"

"Those who do not know they are walking in the DARK will NEVER see the light".

:asian:


----------



## jazkiljok

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *We had a complaint about a possible concern, saw a little possible heat, just wanted to "head it off early".
> 
> 
> :asian: *



All i read is one person talking facts and another hearsay.

seems to me that Goldendragon is being EXTREMELY polite.

btw what exactly does a "complaint about a possible concern" mean?:rofl: 

peace:asian:


----------



## Nightingale

the warning was not directed to any particular individual, just the thread in general.

Nightingale8472
MT Moderator


----------



## Bob Hubbard

jazkiljok,
  I believe  the "complaint about a possible concern" was from someone who saw some possible heat, and brought it to our attention.  We agreed, and issued a general reminder just incase someone was taking offence. It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.

At this point, anyone with concerns please feel free to PM me.  Lets get this thread back on topic, k?

Danke! 

:asian:


----------



## jazkiljok

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *jazkiljok,
> I believe  the "complaint about a possible concern" was from someone who saw some possible heat, and brought it to our attention.  We agreed, and issued a general reminder just incase someone was taking offence. It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.
> 
> At this point, anyone with concerns please feel free to PM me.  Lets get this thread back on topic, k?
> 
> Danke!
> 
> :asian: *



Kein Probleme!!!!!!!!!!!!! (no ?s on the !!!! please):rofl: 

just poking fun at the phrasing is all-- you keep doing your jobs as you see fit-- support any decision you make, whether i agree or disagree-- cause it's obvious you do put a lot of thought into it.

peace
:asian: 

Jaz K.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> *just poking fun at the phrasing is all-- you keep doing your jobs as you see fit-- support any decision you make, whether i agree or disagree-- cause it's obvious you do put a lot of thought into it.*



Thanks! As usual, this was a group decision. Even though only one mod. posts a note, typically several have discussed it first. (In an urgent situation this might not be the case.) In this case, it was indeed a group decision. That doesn't mean it was the right decision--perhaps we jumped in too soon--but it _does_ mean we considered it and acted in a way we felt was consistent with our past actions and board policy.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by arnisador _*
> This was a group decision. Even though only one mod. posts a note, typically several have discussed it first.  In this case, it was indeed a group decision - perhaps we jumped in too soon--but it does mean we considered it and acted in a way we felt was consistent with our past actions and board policy.
> -Arnisador -MT Admin-
> *



Cool by me. 

Thanks guys.

:asian:


----------



## Wes Idol

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *wow,:rofl: possible heat, or concern?  hmmmmmm No problem here, I try to always be polite and straight forward.  I see no disrespect either.*



Amazing, you take no responsibility.



> *"Tigers and Deer don't stroll together"*



Seeing that this subject is about either you or me, who are you refering to as the Tiger and or Deer...and what "polite and respectful" direction are trying to take? 



> *"Those who do not know they are walking in the DARK will NEVER see the light".*



Yet another dig to assume some higher position of knowledge.  Dennis, you don't fool me.  This is the same tongue and cheek play you worked in your opening greetings to me when we met.  I didn't appreciate then and I don't appreciate now.  It doesn't concern me, the reality of your past and present, I have no desire to post any of it.  I've made real efforts to support through simple friendship...that includes your birthday and death of your Mother...and still here we are.  Sad day for sure.  

WI


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _*
> Dennis, you don't fool me. This is the same tongue and cheek play you worked in your opening greetings to me when we met. I didn't appreciate then and I don't appreciate now. It doesn't concern me, the reality
> 
> I've made real efforts to support through simple friendship...that includes your birthday and death of your Mother...and still here we are.
> 
> Sad day for sure.
> *


Wow, sorry, but not trying to fool anyone.  If we  don't agree on something, we don't agree.  It is that simple.  

As far as "tongue in cheek" when we met....... What's that all about????  I have been nothing short of truthful to you, now or before, so cheap pot shots don't bother me.  

You must have some deeper issues to deal with my friend.  If I have offended you somehow or I can help in some small way, email me and we can discuss it.  Other than that, I guess we won't be discussing much.

DC


----------



## Billy Lear

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am informing you that I, William T. Lear, am going to be the first in American Kenpo to wear the prestigious rank of 10th Degree Brown Belt. Yes, that's right! While there might be several thousand black belts out there, none of them will be able to hold the coveted rank of 10th Degree Brown Belt! (At least without having to take a demotion from black, that is...)

I know, I know... What's so big about being a tenth degree brown belt in American Kenpo. The answers are ofcourse obvious! I will be the first to wear that distinguished rank, and secondly, I will have a unique position/title within the Kenpo Community. 

Do you want to be a tenth degree brown belt too...? Here's a list of pre-requisites for those you you whom are interested:

1. You must be at least a green belt, and not know any of your 3rd Degree Brown Belt Requirements. (This is due to 10th Degree actually being lower in rank than 3rd degree by 7 ranks).

2. You must be able to baffle them with B.S. if you can't dazzle them with brilliance. (10th Degree Black Belts are novices at this, we are expected to out talk them).

3. You must be willing to wear a brown belt with two pink 5 inch bars on each end. (Hell, if Gene LaBelle can wear pink, so can we!)

4. You must be willing to wear the required uniform. (That's right baby!!! No More Gi!!! We 10th Degree Brown Belts will only wear pink speedos, and ofcourse our belts.)

5. You must be humble and graciously take ridicule from any human being in the world, except 10th Degree Black Belts. (This is because there are too many of them for any of them to be credible.) 

There you have it people... Oh yeah... One last thing make the check payable to me, and in the amount of $5,000.00 U.S. currency.

Hasta,
Billy "10th Degree" Lear :asian:


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> I am informing you that I, William T. Lear, am going to be the first in American Kenpo to wear the prestigious rank of 10th Degree Brown Belt. Yes, that's right! While there might be several thousand black belts out there, none of them will be able to hold the coveted rank of 10th Degree Brown Belt! (At least without having to take a demotion from black, that is...)
> 
> I know, I know... What's so big about being a tenth degree brown belt in American Kenpo. The answers are ofcourse obvious! I will be the first to wear that distinguished rank, and secondly, I will have a unique position/title within the Kenpo Community.
> 
> Do you want to be a tenth degree brown belt too...? Here's a list of pre-requisites for those you you whom are interested:
> 
> 1. You must be at least a green belt, and not know any of your 3rd Degree Brown Belt Requirements. (This is due to 10th Degree actually being lower in rank than 3rd degree by 7 ranks).
> 
> 2. You must be able to baffle them with B.S. if you can't dazzle them with brilliance. (10th Degree Black Belts are novices at this, we are expected to out talk them).
> 
> 3. You must be willing to wear a brown belt with two pink 5 inch bars on each end. (Hell, if Gene LaBelle can wear pink, so can we!)
> 
> 4. You must be willing to wear the required uniform. (That's right baby!!! No More Gi!!! We 10th Degree Brown Belts will only wear pink speedos, and ofcourse our belts.)
> 
> 5. You must be humble and graciously take ridicule from any human being in the world, except 10th Degree Black Belts. (This is because there are too many of them for any of them to be credible.)
> 
> There you have it people... Oh yeah... One last thing make the check payable to me, and in the amount of $5,000.00 U.S. currency.
> 
> Hasta,
> Billy "10th Degree" Lear :asian: *



You had me up to the pink Speedos and the 5 grand. Now I'm going to have nightmares. Can't shake that image.  All hail Brown Belt Grandmaster Lear.:asian:


----------



## Billy Lear

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *You had me up to the pink Speedos and the 5 grand. Now I'm going to have nightmares. Can't shake that image.  All hail Brown Belt Grandmaster Lear.:asian: *



*Who loves ya baby?*


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *10th Degree Brown Belt.
> *



Man! I should have thought of that myself!


----------



## Klondike93

Hey, I made 3rd Brown last week, so now you have some competition there William     



:asian: 


Klondike (aka Chuck)


----------



## Billy Lear

> _E-Mailed to Billy by cdhall _
> *Guys:
> I decided that posting this on MartialTalk would in no way be worth it, but I wanted your opinion of it anyway.
> 
> Here is what may later become known as the Lost 10th Brown Post tell me what you think. I have been out in the sun all day at the Renaissance Festival.  Can you tell?
> 
> Begin Lost Brown Post:
> In the spirit of avoiding controversy and keeping the record straight, I have to put this down on MartialTalk before it is too late and this whole situation gets out of hand.
> 
> As you can see in the attached photo Mr. Parker and I go back at least to 1989 when this photo was taken at Jackie's Dance and Gymnasium during a seminar sponsored by Mr. Duffy.
> 
> It was while he was signing my notebook here that he told me, and you can clearly see that we are engaged ina conversation, that I should leave the NCKKA and join the IKKA.  He told me that such a move would no doubt result in my becoming the first 10th Degree Brown Belt in the IKKA and while no one overheard this (properly) or directly witnessed the event, and while what he wrote in my notebook made no reference to this whatsoever, it is nevertheless an undeniable fact that I did join the IKKA in Sept 1991 after his death with the anticipation of accepting my new rank.
> 
> Unfortunately neither Mr. Duffy nor the IKKA would recognize my claim so until now I have not spoken of it publically.
> 
> As soon as I recover the rest of my notes from my dream log, I mean my Kenpo Notebook, I'll post more details.
> 
> Sorry Billy.  I was first.  Mr. Parker said so.
> 
> There were no witnesses (this of course is very standard, well-documented procedure).  I am not self-promoted and my story is a lot better than yours.  Besides I was a 3rd Brown Belt for 11 years and since I'm still a Brown Belt I think I have seniority over all the Brown Belts who have ever studied Kenpo at any time in the known (or even unknown) time-space continuum.
> 
> But if you send me the money and a nice letter, I might be persuaded to recognize your claim.  That $5,000 was in 1990 dollars.  I'll get you the new total if you send me a PM.  I guess I'll have to hire a secretary now and clear my calendar.  I will no doubt be booked for seminars for the next several years.  But again, for say 50%, I will let you go out and do some or all of the seminars yourself.
> :asian:
> End Lost Brown Post
> *



No problem... YOU CAN BE THE FIRST... BUT YOU HAVE TO WEAR YOUR PINK SPEEDO AND BELT WITH PRIDE! :rofl:


----------



## jdmills

That damn pink speedo keeps getting in the way of things.

It's too frightening to even contemplate.


----------



## Billy Lear

> _Originally posted by jdmills _
> *That damn pink speedo keeps getting in the way of things.
> 
> It's too frightening to even contemplate. *



It takes courage to be a tenth degree brown belt. Only a man without fear would wear the uniform in public and brave the riddicule from his peers. :asian: 

It is a true test of a practitioner's devotion to the art!

Only a select few are special enough to wear the coveted 10th Degree Brown Belt.


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *It takes courage to be a tenth degree brown belt. Only a man without fear would wear the uniform in public and brave the riddicule from his peers. :asian:
> 
> It is a true test of a practitioner's devotion to the art!
> 
> Only a select few are special enough to wear the coveted 10th Degree Brown Belt.  *


That speedo makes you lok like some kind of confused "Daredevil." "My red one is in he cleaners?"


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Doc _*
> "My red one is in he cleaners?"
> *



Hee heee.......... His used to be red, butttttttttt they used too much bleach and ...... well...... now they are pink.:erg: 

:idunno:


----------



## jdmills

Seven ranks below third brown, let's see, green, blue, purple, orange, yellow, white . . . 10th brown.

Interesting.  It really works.


----------



## Kroy

pink speedos:barf:


----------



## jdmills

Only a fool is never afraid.

Not me thanks.


----------



## sumdumguy

In speaking with my Teacher one day about some organizational requirements, he told me that traditionally, (maybe this is just what he wanted) an individual should spend the same amount of years in rank as the next rank they were to be promoted to. Now with this in mind I did the math and at the time of Mr. Parkers death in 1990, Not knowing exactly when Mr. ????? was promoted to 7th degree. It would be another 27 years before anyone would even be eligable for 10 degree... Hmmmmm makes me wonder, what are the requirements and who is to say who should and shouldn't be 10th. Don't missunderstand what I am saying because I pretty much disagree with all of them... However not knowing most of them it is not for me to say...
just a thought!!!


----------



## Nightingale

well, what I've heard that Mr. Parker said about his 10th was something like this (not an actual quote, but an approximation):

"I looked at what others have done for the martial arts, and what I've done for the martial arts, and adjusted my rank accordingly."

There are a few people out there who should probably be wearing 10th, and people out there who are wearing it and probably shouldn't be.  However, everyone is going to do what they want no matter what anyone says about it.  Many higher rank promotions don't have a whole lot to do with actual skill in kenpo, and more in with kenpo politics and/or contribution to the art.  As long as you're getting quality instruction, it probably doesn't matter if it comes from a 10th degree black or a 10th degree brown. 

Personally, I feel that, no matter what rank you're wearing, you should be able to:

a. look in the mirror and feel honest with yourself when you tie it on
b. be honest about where you received it and from whom and why

Frankly, if you know something I don't that has to do with kenpo, and I have the appropriate opportunity, I'm probably going to bug you to teach me something.

Some of the best kenpo lessons I've had have come from Mr. Lear, our own self proclaimed 10th degree (brown, that is)


----------



## Seig

I see him in that pink speedo and he gets a _*Boot to the Groin*_


----------



## Billy Lear

My position on tenth degrees, and getting along with others... 
The longer you shovel crap you start to smell like it. If you want to sling B.S. around at every one, and cause fights... then that is what you'll be famous for. If you want to be constructive and look past someone's faults (and not exploit them or make a big deal out of them) you might learn something. 

In the last year I've developed a different prespective on this... Mostly, because I was wearing quite a bit of what I was shoveling...

All in all I believe we as martial artists should be open minded toward one another... and listen to what they are actually saying...

Mr. Conatser says he only knows of Mike Pick being promoted to fourth. That's a valid point, and is his experience (neither wrong or right, it just is). On the other hand Mr. Idol says that he has heard from many that Mr. Pick was a seventh degree black belt when Mr. Parker died (His expereince is as valid as Mr. Conatser's).

I called a couple of people about this, one of them being Mr. Trejo, and Mr. Trejo says that *Mr. Parker* introduced Mike Pick as being one of his *seventh degree black belts* at an instructors camp held at Barbara Hale's school in the late eighties. 

*Does that mean that Mr. Conatser is wong?*
No. It just means that to his prior knowlege, Mr. Pick was not a seventh. 

*Does that mean that he must accept Mr. Trejo's recollection as the truth?*
No. I don't think he does, that's between him, Mr. Trejo, and other various members of the Kenpo community.

I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I do have my own veresion of the truth as it relates to this topic... and the truth is: Frank Trejo told me that Mike Pick was a seventh before Mr. Parker died. 

*Does that mean he was?*
I don't know I wasn't there, but I am definately compelled to believe Mr. Trejo. He hasn't lied to me yet.


----------



## Goldendragon7

If that is the case, then why at several AKSC meetings when we were ALL disussing .........

ahhhhhhhh never mind.

:asian:


----------



## Wes Idol

Hmmm.

Let's say you, Dennis Conatser, knew someone was lying and you decided to accept a claim publicly to protect...

ahhh, never mind.

WI


----------



## Dun Ringill

This is what gets me,  Dennis Conatser was there. He was a personal student of Ed Parker.  Wes Idol was not a personal student of Ed Parker.  Dennis Conatser's history and stories come from his OWN personal experiences.  Wes Idol's are coming from stories he has heard and decided to make his own.  The lack of protocol from the Third degree to the Sixth degree is enough to paint a very unflattering picture of the respect and honor in martial arts.  Maybe, Mr. Idol, you should post on www.karatemudhut.com where your lack of respect for a senior in the art will be welcomed.

Oss, 

Dun Ringill


----------



## Wes Idol

Mr. R., 

I don't know you, nor do you know I.  With that said, I've been around long enough in life, Los Angeles and Ed Parker's Kenpo to know "Who's who in the Zoo."

WI, HI
UKS


----------



## Billy Lear

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _
> *This is what gets me,  Dennis Conatser was there. He was a personal student of Ed Parker.  Wes Idol was not a personal student of Ed Parker.  Dennis Conatser's history and stories come from his OWN personal experiences.  Wes Idol's are coming from stories he has heard and decided to make his own.  The lack of protocol from the Third degree to the Sixth degree is enough to paint a very unflattering picture of the respect and honor in martial arts.  Maybe, Mr. Idol, you should post on www.karatemudhut.com where your lack of respect for a senior in the art will be welcomed.
> 
> Oss,
> 
> Dun Ringill *



So Frank Trejo was wrong???

Dennis Conatser was there???

Wes Idol decided to make up his own stories?

Dun, The real question is... How often was *who* there and *when*??? 

Someone is clearly wrong... the thing is... WHO?

Are you going to call Frank Trejo (A senior in Kenpo who practically lived at the Pasadena Studio for decades) a liar??? Mr. Conatser admits that he didn't see Mr. Parker that often. I've asked him on several occassions how many times a year he saw Mr. Parker, and it wasn't that often (maybe 3-4 times a year in Pasadena... maybe a dozen or so times a year on the road...).

Ultimately I think this whole ordeal is sad.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _*
> So Frank Trejo was wrong???
> *



In my opinion .... Yes, but that is just MY opinion.



> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _*
> Mr. Conatser admits that he didn't see Mr. Parker that often. I've asked him on several occasions how many times a year he saw Mr. Parker, and it wasn't that often (maybe 3-4 times a year in Pasadena... maybe a dozen or so times a year on the road...).
> *



I guess Billy you have a lot on your mind, these days.   But if you want true clarity in quoting me...... then do it right and completely.

I told you I saw Mr. Parker "about" 3 to 4 times a year some years and more on others.   He was in Arizona for seminars about 2 times a year then I went to Pasadena as often as possible or out of state to where he was teaching.  

What you didn't state was that this was consistent over a period of 12 + years, and I also told you we talked on the phone at least  2 to 3 times a week, not to mention other times that I  didn't outline for you in great detail, had I known you were going to quote me verbatim I would have taken more care to even give dates and times. 

Keep in mind ....... you know what you know or what I have shared with you ....... not everything I know and from whom I had personal experiences or contact with.


----------



## Wes Idol

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Keep in mind ....... you know what you know or what I have shared with you ....... not everything I know and from whom I had personal experiences or contact with.
> *



That goes for all of us, DC.

WI, HI
UKS


----------



## Billy Lear

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *In my opinion .... Yes, but that is just MY opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess Billy you have a lot on your mind, these days.   But if you want true clarity in quoting me...... then do it right and completely.
> 
> I told you I saw Mr. Parker "about" 3 to 4 times a year some years and more on others.   He was in Arizona for seminars about 2 times a year then I went to Pasadena as often as possible or out of state to where he was teaching.
> 
> What you didn't state was that this was consistent over a period of 12 + years, and I also told you we talked on the phone at least  2 to 3 times a week, not to mention other times that I  didn't outline for you in great detail, had I known you were going to quote me verbatim I would have taken more care to even give dates and times.
> 
> Keep in mind ....... you know what you know or what I have shared with you ....... not everything I know and from whom I had personal experiences or contact with.
> *



So, what do you think is the case? It could only be one of three things:

1. Mr. Trejo is lying.  

2. Mr. Trejo is not clearly remembering what he witnessed?  

3. Mike Pick brain washed Mr. Trejo.


----------



## webpage20022003

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *
> 
> "I looked at what others have done for the martial arts, and what I've done for the martial arts, and adjusted my rank accordingly."
> 
> *



no offense to you or anybody else, you mean self-promoting ?


----------



## kenpo3631

> Are you going to call Frank Trejo (A senior in Kenpo who practically lived at the Pasadena Studio for decades) a liar???



In a interview I did with Mr. Trejo in 1991, he told me  he did actually live in the studio at one time. 

on a different note...

Mr. Conatser, I have never met you and spoke breifly to you once. You seem like a generally good person but like Billy stated;



> Does that mean that Mr. Conatser is wong?
> No. It just means that to his prior knowlege, Mr. Pick was not a seventh.





> Does that mean that he must accept Mr. Trejo's recollection as the truth?
> No. I don't think he does, that's between him, Mr. Trejo, and other various members of the Kenpo community.



Just because you recollect something and it is different doesn't mean it is necessarily correct. From what I know, Mr. Trejo taught in  and managed the Pasadena Studio for years, don't you think he might have been privy to more information than you? He was like Mr. Parker's adopted son, I have heard numerous prominent kenpoists say this. 




> I saw Mr. Parker "about" 3 to 4 times a year some years and more on others. He was in Arizona for seminars about 2 times a year then I went to Pasadena as often as possible or out of state to where he was teaching.





> this was consistent over a period of 12 + years, and I also told you we talked on the phone at least 2 to 3 times a week, not to mention other times that I didn't outline for you in great detail



How often did Mr. Trejo see and speak with Mr. Parker? Could it have been more than you?  

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, as you have made perfectly clear, however what you perceive as fact may not necessarily be so. Besides like your quote says...Time will either promote you or expose you. If that is true, time will take care of Mr Pick now, won't it? 


:asian:


----------



## Nightingale

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> *no offense to you or anybody else, you mean self-promoting ? *



Well, from what I've heard, that's exactly what Mr. Parker did.  I've also heard that it wasn't something anyone argued with him about.  But I wasn't there.


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## Goldendragon7

:rofl:


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## Marcus Buonfiglio

I began my study of Kenpo (Tracy System) in early 1980 with John Sepulveda. Several years later we switched to the IKKA and I was introduced to Larry Tatum as he was the one that would come in and do seminars at the school. It was he who was the Senior Examiner at my Black Belt promotion. Shortly after my black belt test Mr. Tatum stopped coming around and we were introduced to Michael Pick. At the time of introduction I noticed that he wore no stripes on his belt and his belt was much frayed and almost white from being tied so much. My instructor (Sepulveda) at that time held the rank of 3rd Black.  As I progressed in my training we had Mr. Parker teach seminars four times a year, twice at our Santa Clara location and twice in Sacramento at Bob Lyles school. Most of the time but not always, when Parker would show up, Pick was with him. When everyone lined up to bow in at a Parker seminar, Pick was the first in line. All others lined up to his left.  It was well known at the time and acknowledged that Pick was the senior in rank to all of those in attendance (Dian Tanaka 5th , Bob Lyles 5th , John Sepulveda 5th, Clarence Craig 3rd , Andre Simms 3rd , Vinton Koklitch 3rd , Craig McCoy 6th , etc.) with Parker obviously being senior to Pick. When Parker or Pick would conduct a seminar, those people that were of senior rank to me (listed above) were in attendance participating, not helping conduct. When I was promoted to Second black in Auburn Ca. at a seminar hosted by Andre Simms, Parker and Pick were there. When I was promoted to Third Black at Sepulvedas school in 1990, Parker and Pick were there. It was my experience that Parker always sat in the center with Pick in the seat reserved for the next senior in rank. All others then sat accordingly with Sepulveda running the test. Picks rank or position was never questioned or disputed. While Parker was alive we never had a seminar with anyone but Pick or Parker. (Tatum being the early exception). It wasnt until after Parkers death that anyone but those two conducted a seminar at Johns school.  When I competed at the Internationals it was always Pick that I saw shadowing Parker, scanning the crowd as Parker shook hands or conversed. Pick was Mr. Parkers bodyguard, accepting the responsibility requested of him after GM Tuiolosega started the Limalama Arts of Self Defense and could no longer fulfill that roll. Pick continued this responsibility until Parkers death in 1990. After Mr. Parker died John Sepulveda assembled all of his senior students at the dojo and said to us that Where Mike Pick goes, we go (For his own reasons John did not follow through with that announcement) 

I offer this trip down my memory lane in support of what Wes Idol, Billy Lear Frank Trejo and others have stated concerning Michael Pick, his relationship with Mr. Parker and his rank.  These memories are evidenced by pictures taken during these events, other peoples memories / recollections, mirroring my own, and video footage of all my tests. The summary of my 21 years of observation concerning this dispute is as follows. When Mr. Parker wanted someone to travel with him so he could have someone to smack around and pay his own way, Dennis Conatser fit the bill. When he wanted to work on police arrest and control technique, Ron Chapel fit the bill. When his life was on the line and he needed someone to watch his back he called on the one man that could provide that type of trusted protection, Michael Robert Pick.a 4th degree Black Belt? Draw your own conclusions.

Marcus Buonfiglio
Southwest Regional Director
Universal Kenpo Federation


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## kenmpoka

why not produce copies of the certificates in question and the proper registration numbers and be done with this crap???

  :asian:


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## Wes Idol

Mr. T., 

A very good point.  Problem is, Mike Pick is someone that never desired or requested any certificates.  I know for decades he was one of the only students of Ed Parker that never wore any rank on his black belt.  I've been in Pick's office at his home and saw no certificates anywhere, and yet it would not be true to state he is not a black belt of Parker's.

I agree with you...the experience of this "crap."  Unfortunately we're not dealing with someone that ever coveted certificates for his own, so paper trails don't properly explain Mike Pick's rank under Ed Parker.

Respectfully, 

WI, HI
UKS


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## Nightingale

from what I've heard (READ: I WASN'T THERE, but several someones told me), Mr. Parker often promoted people on the spur of the moment.  Not everyone received a certificate, which is now causing problems for people who need to authenticate their rank.


----------



## Billy Lear

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *from what I've heard (READ: I WASN'T THERE, but several someones told me), Mr. Parker often promoted people on the spur of the moment.  Not everyone received a certificate, which is now causing problems for people who need to authenticate their rank. *



You are right, and there are several people that wished Mr. Parker was a little more official about the way he would promote people... Mr. Conatser being one of them (at least that's what he's shared with me).

Sincerely,
Billy Lear :asian:


----------



## Billy Lear

:asian:


----------



## jdmills

> _Originally posted by Marcus Buonfiglio _
> *When Mr. Parker wanted someone to travel with him so he could have someone to smack around and pay his own way, Dennis Conatser fit the bill. When he wanted to work on police arrest and control technique, Ron Chapel fit the bill. When his life was on the line and he needed someone to watch his back he called on the one man that could provide that type of trusted protection, Michael Robert Pick.a 4th degree Black Belt? Draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Marcus Buonfiglio
> Southwest Regional Director
> Universal Kenpo Federation *



Come on now, are you seriously saying that Dennis Conatser is merely "someone to travel with him so he could have someone to smack around and pay his own way"?  I don't know Mr. Conatser personally but he sure seems like much more than that to me.

I'd go on but the last thing Mr. Conatser needs is a defense from me, he's quite capable of that on his own should he choose to do so.

If you do not like Mr. Conatser, that's fine, but to make these type of condesending statements is not right.

Jim


----------



## Billy Lear

> _Originally posted by jdmills _
> *If you do not like Mr. Conatser, that's fine, but to make these type of condesending statements is not right.
> 
> Jim *



It's not right for anyone to make condescending comments, regardless of their rank... Mr. Conatser is no exception.

It has to stop sometime. Right


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _*
> It's not right for anyone to make condescending comments, regardless of their rank... Mr. Conatser is no exception.
> *



Right!  :rofl:

BTW, all the black Belts I know that were promoted to Black By Mr. Parker "did" receive certificates from Mr. Parker,  such as: Tom Kelly, Steve LaBounty, Bob White, Frank Trejo, Larry Tatum, Joe Palanzo, & Huk Planas, just to name a few of the high rankers. 

I never said any didn't receive certificates - that was not a statement of mine.

:asian:


----------



## Sigung86

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _
> *Mr. T.,
> 
> A very good point.  Problem is, Mike Pick is someone that never desired or requested any certificates.  I know for decades he was one of the only students of Ed Parker that never wore any rank on his black belt.  I've been in Pick's office at his home and saw no certificates anywhere, and yet it would not be true to state he is not a black belt of Parker's.
> 
> I agree with you...the experience of this "crap."  Unfortunately we're not dealing with someone that ever coveted certificates for his own, so paper trails don't properly explain Mike Pick's rank under Ed Parker.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> WI, HI
> UKS *



I don't get in here too often anymore because of this kind of crap.  I certainly don't care one way or the other if "P" got his 4th or his 7th under SGM Parker... But it seems damned interesting to me that "W" is suddenly so defending of someone who doesn't have paper to back his statements.  Most particularly when W was, not too long ago, making all sorts of statements regarding others who would not produce paper to satisfy his whims and desires and rantings.  It would appear that this type of behavior is ok if W happens to like and respect you, but not if he doesn't.

Mr. P, I think you probably could do much better to have someone defend your honor than W... Not much consistency or veracity.

The agendas should stop sometime.  P gave himself 10th degree.  It is a matter of rather historical record, based on memories of people who saw his original website whereupon he presented a letter signed by "T" of Lima Lama, proclaiming him the Grand Master and head of American Kenpo and he deemed himself worthy of tying on the 10th Degree.  Was he a 4th at that time?  A 7th?  I honestly don't think it matters, as Trejo (too many Ts would be confusing)  took a 10th kick in from him.  That makes P valid a valid 10th and Trejo politically beholden to P ... As no one ever questioned that move, and everything else up to that point matters, not one whit.

I, for one, salute and accept P as a 10th Degree in EPAK, Trejo as a 10th in EPAK, and virtually anyone else who is kicked in or promoted as a 10th in American Kenpo.  Why all the fuss and fighting over what went before?  Today is the day, and now is the moment?  I think so.

If you are not an EPAK Senior, you have no right to question the rank of a 10th Degree, nor his or her history.  You were not there, nor do you have the rank entitlement, and very little understanding of the rank and the respect that goes with it.  If other 10th Degrees all accept him/her... Without question, who are you junior BBs to even be discussing it?

Man... I'm embarrassed by all this crap.... Glad I'm not a senior.  What the heck!!!  I'm not even a student of American Kenpo...

In that case... Never mind... Pray proceed with all this wallowing and mental masturbation...

Dan


----------



## Dun Ringill

If I was a 10th degree, the last people in the world i would want defending me are a Brown Belt and a 3rd degree with no credibility.  But I guess that's just my personal opinion.

Oss


----------



## kenmpoka

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> *why not produce copies of the certificates in question and the proper registration numbers and be done with this crap???
> 
> :asian: *


Wes, I appreciate your loyalty, but you mean to tell me that Mr. Pick never received a certificate from Mr. Parker? If that is the case, then his rank would be at best questionable. I know that Mr. Pick has contributed a lot over the years, and I would never question his knowledge but to say that he was promoted verbally without a few non-biased witnesses, would be a very bold statement. Even SGM Parker received a certificate from his teacher signed by a third party, to legitimize his teaching credentials. I personally don't know of anyone in EPAK that has not received some kind of proof of promotion from Mr. Parker, asked or not. This is just not the way an assocation (IKKA) works. 

I have an easier time accepting Mr. Pick's 10th than his others' if they were all verbal and private!!!

In any case you should be loyal to your teachers and their knowledge, but keep an open mind to other opinions as well.


:asian:


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## Seig

The bottom line is this.  Some people have 10th degrees, other people do not believe they should wear them.  I have been told repeatedly that Mr. Parker did envision at some point in time, other 10th degrees within his system.  Since Mr. Parker is not around to pass these out, some have been promoted by their students, some have been promoted by their peers, and some have promoted themselves.  In my opinion, if you tie on a 10th, then you should be ready to defend your position.  I will not say, as a lowly third black, who I feel should or should not wear a 10th black.  Whatever rank you wear, YOU are the one that has to wear it.  But to all who would wear it, be prepared to come under attack....That is a fact.


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## kenpo3631

If so what do you think?

Parker's Letter to Pick


----------



## Billy Lear

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _
> *If I was a 10th degree, the last people in the world i would want defending me are a Brown Belt and a 3rd degree with no credibility.  But I guess that's just my personal opinion.
> 
> Oss *



What makes you say I have no credibility? Curious  

I'm not saying that Dennis Conatser is right or wrong, just that he might not be in possession of all the facts. Then ofcourse, here we are slamming each other. C'mon...

Frank Trejo recalls that Mr. Parker introduced Mike Pick several times as a seventh degree, the first of which was at an instructors camp in the 1980's. I'm stuck wondering... 1. Did Trejo lie to me?, 2. Is Trejo not remembering this right?, 3. Is Dennis lying?, 4. Is Dennis not in possession of correct information? 

All of these things are possible. I just don't want to think that either of these two men (Dennis Conatser or Frank Trejo) would willingly try to decieve me for some reason.

Dun, I have an ignore option on this thing... I'd prefer not to use it. You can attack my character all you want. You can discredit me all that you want. I'm not anybody prominent, but I am somebody... just like you.

Don't be hatin',
Billy Lear :asian:


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## kenpo3631

> Dun, I have an ignore option on this thing... I'd prefer not to use it. You can attack my character all you want. You can discredit me all that you want. I'm not anybody prominent, but I am somebody... just like you.



Well said Bill. I agree about the "having the facts straight" theory, but just like in the military, if you make sense it's nonsense:rofl:  Know what I mean?


----------



## Billy Lear

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *Well said Bill. I agree about the "having the facts straight" theory, but just like in the military, if you make sense it's nonsense:rofl:  Know what I mean? *



Been there... I totally know what you mean.


----------



## webpage20022003

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *Well said Bill. I agree about the "having the facts straight" theory, but just like in the military, if you make sense it's nonsense:rofl:  Know what I mean? *



sorry, i don't know what you mean but i can say this just by looking at this entire thread.

a lot of people claim this and that but guess what ?

they do that AFTER Ed Parker DIED. When Ed Parker was alive, i didn't see anybody claim ANYTHING.

that's my 2 cents.


----------



## Marcus Buonfiglio

> _Originally posted by jdmills _
> *Come on now, are you seriously saying that Dennis Conatser is merely "someone to travel with him so he could have someone to smack around and pay his own way"?  I don't know Mr. Conatser personally but he sure seems like much more than that to me.
> 
> I'd go on but the last thing Mr. Conatser needs is a defense from me, he's quite capable of that on his own should he choose to do so.
> 
> If you do not like Mr. Conatser, that's fine, but to make these type of condesending statements is not right.
> 
> Jim *



My statement was not condesending. Simply as I stated, my 21 years of observation.


----------



## Marcus Buonfiglio

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *If so what do you think?
> 
> Parker's Letter to Pick *



Yes I have seen it. In fact many years ago. At the time that I read it my reaction was "Nice affermation Mr. Pick" You see it didn't tell me anything that I and everyelse at the time didn't already know. It's significance was lost on me because no one questioned who Pick was or his position. In my political innocence at the time, I never figuered anyone would. Mr. Parker obviously thought otherwise. I wonder if anyone else has a letter of this caliber from Mr. Parker??


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _
> *If I was a 10th degree, the last people in the world i would want defending me are a Brown Belt and a 3rd degree with no credibility.  But I guess that's just my personal opinion.
> 
> Oss *



And why is it they have no credibility, I'm very  curious?    Do you know them personally, have you been on the mats with them?    If the answer is no to any of the questions you are in no position to judge them.

Clyde


----------



## Marcus Buonfiglio

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _
> *If I was a 10th degree, the last people in the world i would want defending me are a Brown Belt and a 3rd degree with no credibility.  But I guess that's just my personal opinion.
> 
> Oss *


 Way off the mark on that one Dun. Both Billy Lear and Wes Idyl call it as they see it. If they screw up they call themselves on it. I respect the hell out of that and from what I see they are calling it right a hell of a lot more than not. As far as their credibility is concerned, myself and many others consider it to be very high.


----------



## Marcus Buonfiglio

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> [.
> 
> a lot of people claim this and that but guess what ?
> 
> they do that AFTER Ed Parker DIED. When Ed Parker was alive, i didn't see anybody claim ANYTHING.
> 
> that's my 2 cents. [/B]



Actually Mr. Web(?) People did try to claim certain things while Parker was alive but because we didn't have the blessing / curse of the internet they weren't very well known. If word did get arround, and it warrented attention, Parker would usually send Pick to straighten it out. As Michael Jr. said in his biograohy of his Dad. "A visit from Michael Pick was either a blessing or a curse" 
I have known Mr. Pick for quite sometime. He makes the same claims after Parkers death as before them.


----------



## Wes Idol

> _Originally posted by Mr. Teymouraz _
> *Wes, I appreciate your loyalty, but you mean to tell me that Mr. Pick never received a certificate from Mr. Parker? If that is the case, then his rank would be at best questionable. I know that Mr. Pick has contributed a lot over the years, and I would never question his knowledge but to say that he was promoted verbally without a few non-biased witnesses would be a very bold statement. Even SGM Parker received a certificate from his teacher signed by a third party, to legitimize his teaching credentials. I personally don't know of anyone in EPAK that has not received some kind of proof of promotion from Mr. Parker, asked or not. This is just not the way an assocation (IKKA) works. *


Mr. Teymouraz, Parker walked into Albert Cornejos barber shop and took a seat.  When the customer left, Parker stood and told Cornejo to hit a horse stance.  Parker kicked him, hugged him and told him, Now youre a fifth.  No certificate, no belt that was it.  Now, Parker and Cornejo had a 25 (or so) year line of weekly shared time, if not monthly (Cornejo was his student as well as barber), certainly if Cornejo wanted to insure there was a certificate, that wouldnt be hard.  Pick was different, he believed only physical contact would certify who he was.


> _Originally posted by Mr. Teymouraz _
> *In any case you should be loyal to your teachers and their knowledge, but keep an open mind to other opinions as well.*


I am, which is why I think the truth of all this matters.  I do appreciate your mature offer of dialoguethank you.


> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _
> * If I was a 10th degree, the last people in the world i would want defending me are a Brown Belt and a 3rd degree with no credibility. But I guess that's just my personal opinion. *


Well Mr. Ringill, 
I guess you and I do not travel in the same circles.  To Billy Lears Physical/Mental credibility, he can execute and teach all of the material up through his rank.  To his Spiritual credibility, he admits when he is wrong without pointing fingers, and calls others on their BS.  Basically he has courage.  I have also seen a grand source of compassion with him.  As for me, its clear you dont know methat I cant judge you for.  


> _Originally posted by Clyde _*
> And why is it they have no credibility, I'm very curious? Do you know them personally, have you been on the mats with them? If the answer is no to any of the questions you are in no position to judge them. *


As many times in the past, I am totally agreement with you brother.


> _Originally posted by Marcus Buonfiglio_* Both Billy Lear and Wes Idol call it as they see it. If they screw up they call
> themselves on it. *


Good to hear from you Marcusand thank you for your time and energy.


> _Originally posted by Dennis Conatser _*
> BTW, all the black Belts I know that were promoted to Black By Mr. Parker "did" receive certificates from Mr. Parker, such as: Tom Kelly, Steve LaBounty, Bob White, Frank Trejo, Larry Tatum, Joe Palanzo, & Huk Planas, just to name a few of the high rankers. *


All people that were promoted after Pick, and during a time when the IKKA was still settling in with all of its policies.  Yesterday George Waite and I were talking about his certificate that says holder of a black belt..I think we might assume those times of late 50s to early 60s were of great change and not too much organization.  Otherwise one might assume that you think Pick didnt get a black belt from Parker because he doesnt have a certificatebut I dont assume that.


> _Originally posted by Danny Farmer _*
> But it seems damned interesting to me that "W" is suddenly so defending of someone who doesn't have paper to back his statements. Most particularly when W was, not too long ago, making all sorts of statements regarding others who would not produce paper to satisfy his whims and desires and rantings. *


Actually it was concerning Ron Chapels 1st thru 6th blacks, which Parker never promoted Chapel too.  This was confirmed by many hearing it right out of Parkers mouth.  On the other hand, many confirmed that Pick got his black belt from Parkerso your comparison is a little off.  Its really more about being truthful.  


> _Originally posted by Danny Farmer _* It would appear that this type of behavior is ok if W happens to like and respect you, but not if he doesn't. *


Its very simpledont lie.


----------



## Ronin

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _
> *This is what gets me,  Dennis Conatser was there. He was a personal student of Ed Parker.  Wes Idol was not a personal student of Ed Parker.  Dennis Conatser's history and stories come from his OWN personal experiences.  Wes Idol's are coming from stories he has heard and decided to make his own.  The lack of protocol from the Third degree to the Sixth degree is enough to paint a very unflattering picture of the respect and honor in martial arts.  Maybe, Mr. Idol, you should post on www.karatemudhut.com where your lack of respect for a senior in the art will be welcomed.
> 
> Oss,
> 
> Dun Ringill *


 Great Post!!!  I totally agree with you!  As a long time student of Mr. Conatsers and one that lives in Arizona, I grow tired of these people who show such disrespect to someone who helps out by dedicating time to helping up and coming kenpoists with questions.  Boy I remember as a teenager smarting off to Mr. C and having my *** kicked as a result.  I cant believe just because someone gets a black belt they feel they have the right to lash out at "old school" instructors.  Mr C. has always explained things based on his experiences thats not to offend anyone its just the way he saw it.  In an off the wall comparison, this reminds me of  Anakin Skywalker disrespecting Obi-Wan Kenobi feeling his knowledge was better than his masters.  I think Mr. Idol would be singing a different tune if he was in Arizona and not disrespectfully disagreeing over a computer.  Mr C. sorry if this fuels anything further it just bothers me.  As for the tenth degree population boom I think its just plain funny.  Degrees really dont matter after 4th or 5th anyway. (correct me if I am wrong Mr. C)  People just think they look cooler.  Well I'd rather look like an idiot that doesnt know anything and kick your *** than to look like i can kick your *** and not be able to do it.  It reminds me of a boxing friend of mine that met Mike Tyson and asked Mike what he thought about champion heavyweight boxers in general. Tyson simply said "Always remember just cause someones a heavyweight champ doesnt mean they are any good."  Mr. Conatser should be respected and flat out knows kenpo and its ongoings. I remember Mr. Parker himself telling me this.   Enough said.


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## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Ronin _
> *Great Post!!!  I totally agree with you!  As a long time student of Mr. Conatsers and one that lives in Arizona, I grow tired of these people who show such disrespect to someone who helps out by dedicating time to helping up and coming kenpoists with questions.  Boy I remember as a teenager smarting off to Mr. C and having my *** kicked as a result.  I cant believe just because someone gets a black belt they feel they have the right to lash out at "old school" instructors.  Mr C. has always explained things based on his experiences thats not to offend anyone its just the way he saw it.  In an off the wall comparison, this reminds me of  Anakin Skywalker disrespecting Obi-Wan Kenobi feeling his knowledge was better than his masters.  I think Mr. Idol would be singing a different tune if he was in Arizona and not disrespectfully disagreeing over a computer.  Mr C. sorry if this fuels anything further it just bothers me.  As for the tenth degree population boom I think its just plain funny.  Degrees really dont matter after 4th or 5th anyway. (correct me if I am wrong Mr. C)  People just think they look cooler.  Well I'd rather look like an idiot that doesnt know anything and kick your *** than to look like i can kick your *** and not be able to do it.  It reminds me of a boxing friend of mine that met Mike Tyson and asked Mike what he thought about champion heavyweight boxers in general. Tyson simply said "Always remember just cause someones a heavyweight champ doesnt mean they are any good."  Mr. Conatser should be respected and flat out knows kenpo and its ongoings. I remember Mr. Parker himself telling me this.   Enough said. *



If he's kicking the *** of teenagers smarting off to him then he's got some other issues to deal with cuz that's just wrong.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Ronin _
> *Great Post!!!  I totally agree with you!  As a long time student of Mr. Conatsers and one that lives in Arizona, I grow tired of these people who show such disrespect to someone who helps out by dedicating time to helping up and coming kenpoists with questions.  Boy I remember as a teenager smarting off to Mr. C and having my *** kicked as a result.  I cant believe just because someone gets a black belt they feel they have the right to lash out at "old school" instructors.  Mr C. has always explained things based on his experiences thats not to offend anyone its just the way he saw it.  In an off the wall comparison, this reminds me of  Anakin Skywalker disrespecting Obi-Wan Kenobi feeling his knowledge was better than his masters.  I think Mr. Idol would be singing a different tune if he was in Arizona and not disrespectfully disagreeing over a computer.  Mr C. sorry if this fuels anything further it just bothers me.  As for the tenth degree population boom I think its just plain funny.  Degrees really dont matter after 4th or 5th anyway. (correct me if I am wrong Mr. C)  People just think they look cooler.  Well I'd rather look like an idiot that doesnt know anything and kick your *** than to look like i can kick your *** and not be able to do it.  It reminds me of a boxing friend of mine that met Mike Tyson and asked Mike what he thought about champion heavyweight boxers in general. Tyson simply said "Always remember just cause someones a heavyweight champ doesnt mean they are any good."  Mr. Conatser should be respected and flat out knows kenpo and its ongoings. I remember Mr. Parker himself telling me this.   Enough said. *



Dougy, what up? I know what you mean, credibility for some is who and what they will accept at the time. it's really bad when the stories start to change and people just begin to flat out lie. And why it is so important? If someone is going to have something to say, it should at least be someone who was around. Not this he said she said, but, in the end everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as they are not in my house or within my reach.
It's not business, it's personal.


----------



## Wes Idol

> _Originally posted by Ronin _
> *I think Mr. Idol would be singing a different tune if he was in Arizona and not disrespectfully disagreeing over a computer.   *


Everything I post I will say in person.  Every week I am regularly at Bryan Hawkins Kenpo Karate.  If anyone would like, you can fly me out to another state or country where I will continue to say face to face what I have posted......the truth matters.

WI, HI
UKS


----------



## kenpo3631

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Dougy, what up? I know what you mean, credibility for some is who and what they will accept at the time. it's really bad when the stories start to change and people just begin to flat out lie. And why it is so important? If someone is going to have something to say, it should at least be someone who was around. Not this he said she said, but, in the end everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as they are not in my house or within my reach.
> It's not business, it's personal. *



Mr. Chapel' I don't think that this is the "GOU" Ronin... :asian:


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## kenpo3631

> _Originally posted by Ronin _
> *Great Post!!!  I totally agree with you!  As a long time student of Mr. Conatsers and one that lives in Arizona, I grow tired of these people who show such disrespect to someone who helps out by dedicating time to helping up and coming kenpoists with questions.  Boy I remember as a teenager smarting off to Mr. C and having my *** kicked as a result.  I cant believe just because someone gets a black belt they feel they have the right to lash out at "old school" instructors.  Mr C. has always explained things based on his experiences thats not to offend anyone its just the way he saw it.  In an off the wall comparison, this reminds me of  Anakin Skywalker disrespecting Obi-Wan Kenobi feeling his knowledge was better than his masters.  I think Mr. Idol would be singing a different tune if he was in Arizona and not disrespectfully disagreeing over a computer.  Mr C. sorry if this fuels anything further it just bothers me.  As for the tenth degree population boom I think its just plain funny.  Degrees really dont matter after 4th or 5th anyway. (correct me if I am wrong Mr. C)  People just think they look cooler.  Well I'd rather look like an idiot that doesnt know anything and kick your *** than to look like i can kick your *** and not be able to do it.  It reminds me of a boxing friend of mine that met Mike Tyson and asked Mike what he thought about champion heavyweight boxers in general. Tyson simply said "Always remember just cause someones a heavyweight champ doesnt mean they are any good."  Mr. Conatser should be respected and flat out knows kenpo and its ongoings. I remember Mr. Parker himself telling me this.   Enough said. *



This post is OBVIOUSLY biased toward Mr. Conatser! Of course you defend him...HE'S YOUR INSTRUCTOR! I would probably do the same thing....However there are other people that WERE there. They didn't just "hear" about it or were "told" about it. Ronin, open your mind my Kenpo brother...there are OTHER opinions out there  :asian:


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *Mr. Chapel' I don't think that this is the "GOU" Ronin... :asian: *



My Bad! thanks for the heads up! Or as the church lady would say ..... nevermind.


----------



## Sigung86

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _
> *
> 
> ...
> 
> Actually it was concerning Ron Chapels 1st thru 6th blacks, which Parker never promoted Chapel too.  This was confirmed by many hearing it right out of Parkers mouth.  On the other hand, many confirmed that Pick got his black belt from Parkerso your comparison is a little off.  Its really more about being truthful.
> 
> Its very simpledont lie. *



It is even simpler than that Wes.  Do not have a double standard.


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *It is even simpler than that Wes.  Do not have a double standard. *



Mr.  Farmer,
It amazes me how much some people say they "HEAR" and repeat as if it were gospel. If it were really important I guess these people could speak for themselves. How do you defend yourself against a self appointed know it all who can only tell you what he heard and believes, but has no first hand knowledge himself? 

Childish, immature, sick junior high school, he said she said, B.S. Some people need documentations, pictures, and 2 approved witnesses, whereas with others whatever they say must be the truth. 

It's obviously alright to have an opinion but to argue so vehemently with senior students of Ed Parker about something in public you can only say you heard about is moronic in my opinion or worse yet, just plain sick.

anybody got a wrench?


----------



## webpage20022003

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *
> 
> It's obviously alright to have an opinion but to argue so vehemently with senior students of Ed Parker about something in public you can only say you heard about is moronic in my opinion or worse yet, just plain sick.
> 
> anybody got a wrench? *



hey Doc,

i hope you still remember me ? we used to email back and forth about your marial art university. Got the book but i haven't time to arrive to your martial art university for a visit and hopefully have a future training. I hope you don't close the door SOON 

by the way, it is OK for you not to remember me. I know many people contact you daily.

about 10th degree people. You know Ed Parker well. Don't you guys have a list of who are in the Organization and had black belt when Parker Sr was alive ?

i think that if you guys have that list, Nobody claims S.H.I.T nowsday because the TRUTH is there.

nice to see you again


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> *hey Doc,
> 
> i hope you still remember me ? we used to email back and forth about your marial art university. Got the book but i haven't time to arrive to your martial art university for a visit and hopefully have a future training. I hope you don't close the door SOON
> 
> by the way, it is OK for you not to remember me. I know many people contact you daily.
> 
> about 10th degree people. You know Ed Parker well. Don't you guys have a list of who are in the Organization and had black belt when Parker Sr was alive ?
> 
> i think that if you guys have that list, Nobody claims S.H.I.T nowsday because the TRUTH is there.
> 
> nice to see you again *



Hey Big Guy, so you're still alive? i wondered what happened to you. Hope all is well.

As far as ranks go, Parker promoted people in the early days all kind of ways. On the phone, for business, for service, and yes even vicariously for money. Some diplomas were given out but not always. Some were made out in crayon, hand printed or written, you name it.

As far as I know when he created the Big Diploma Ed Parker Jr. made one out for everyone that was supposed to have one, for his Father's signature. Hell they were new and really nice and everyone I know wanted one. It was a prized possession to have even if you never displayed it. Everyone that was reasonbly close to Parker and still in the organization got one as far as I know.

But in fairness he was Ed Parker, and did whatever he wanted when he wanted. he kept better records when he computerized but the person he gave that task to wasn't the best and some people got diplomas that were never entered into the computer. I saw diplomas going to people of high rank I never heard of. 

So there you go. For me rank is nebulous. What does it mean? Without the knowledge and skill, and in some cases just time, it isn't worth much anyway. I don't call anyone Grand anything or master anything. I just do what I do and the others can fight about who has the biggest D**K. I'll match real knowledge with anyone.

Don't be a stranger and stay in touch. you know the e-mail. Look forward to you coming out.


----------



## Kenpodoc

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *But in fairness he was Ed Parker, and did whatever he wanted when he wanted. he kept better records when he computerized but the person he gave that task to wasn't the best and some people got diplomas that were never entered into the computer. I saw diplomas going to people of high rank I never heard of.
> 
> So there you go. For me rank is nebulous. What does it mean? Without the knowledge and skill, and in some cases just time, it isn't worth much anyway. I don't call anyone Grand anything or master anything. I just do what I do and the others can fight about who has the biggest D**K. I'll match real knowledge with anyone.*



Thanks Doc.

I 'll never understand why people spend so much time fretting about who is wearing Red and how much. All the Parker Black Belts I've met are good, but I'm sure there were some crappy ones.  I have noticed that the volume of red on the belt has nothing to do with whom I would choose to study.

Mr. Parker was a dynamic charismatic man who made everyone of his students feel important. I'd rather that they shared what they learned, quit fighting about who was most important and let me decide what I want to learn.  Mr. Parker's greatest contribution to American Kenpo was to not leave a single successor.  In doing so he has allowed the art to flower in his absence.

Jeff


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *Thanks Doc.
> 
> I 'll never understand why people spend so much time fretting about who is wearing Red and how much. All the Parker Black Belts I've met are good, but I'm sure there were some crappy ones.  I have noticed that the volume of red on the belt has nothing to do with whom I would choose to study.
> 
> Mr. Parker was a dynamic charismatic man who made everyone of his students feel important. I'd rather that they shared what they learned, quit fighting about who was most important and let me decide what I want to learn.  Mr. Parker's greatest contribution to American Kenpo was to not leave a single successor.  In doing so he has allowed the art to flower in his absence.
> 
> Jeff *


You're right of course. There are a lot of really bad black belts in American kenpo, (more bad then good) and unfortunately many of them were sanctioned or even directly promoted by Ed Parker. Some of them pretty high ranks. Everyone treats American kenpo as some sacred religion.  

As much as we would like to think it's "pure," there were many aspects to his different versions, and one of those many components was quite simply a business. Ed Parker made a living and took care of his rather large family and bought everyone of his children a house, and took care of them in the family business.

For anyone to claim to be his successor is just wrong. Those that seem to do the most squaking about "who has what" are those who come from the business side of the art because all they have is their ranks, and they defend it vehemently and their "business lineage" relationship to Ed Parker.

The truth is, he was good man, a good father, and a great martial artist. But just like any other business that deals with and depends on the public to survive, huge compromises are made for the sake of keeping the business viable. 

The mentally sound "real old timers" before the seventies, never ***** about rank or care who got what or when and don't impose double standards in some "keeper of the truth" religious zealot fanaticism. They know the chef's proof is in his cooking.

Ed Parker in reference to his own students said it best. "Just because the red shows, doesn't mean that you know." 

That says it all for me. So study with whom you wish, learn what you like, enjoy what you're doing, and recognize there is more than one church in town and maybe yours really isn't the shiznit. You can't mold kenpo in your own warped image, so just do your thing and stop worrying about others. If you spend at much energy on your own kenpo as you do what somebody else is doing, maybe you wouldn't have time for such sniping.

Lastly a word about Dennis Conatser. Clearly one of the most intelligent guys around who understands the motion interpretation of kenpo as well as or better than anybody. I saw Ed Parker as much or more than just about anybody. 

I remember and saw Dennis Conatser when he first began coming to the house. From then on he was either there or talking with Parker on the phone more than anybody else I know. So say what you will, but Dennis won't open his mouth unless he knows what he's talking about. 

And when somebody drags a name into a discussion Dennis will call and talk to the person personally before responding. In many cases he does have first hand knowledge of what went on, and has no agenda or "image" to protect. If I had to choose who to believe in a discussion, I'd go with Dennis without hesitation.

For the record: Everyone wasn't necessarily on good terms with Parker when he died, and in fact many were pushed out because of their own selfess actions. You'd be surprised how he really felt about a lot of people.

KenpoDoc, obviously that last rant is not directed at you, I just needed to get it out.


----------



## Iron Dog

Doc, Mr. Chapel, Well said! I for one am weary of all the turmoil of who is and who isn't. People will follow those who they are most comfortable with for their own reasons. If there are phoney high ranking "Grand Masters" history will expose them. Invoking the name of Mr. Parker, or anyone, will not do any good. If they are legitimate, their art will prevail throughout the ages and they too will have their following and destiny.
I met Mr. Conaster in Seattle, actually listened in on some conversation, and I was very impressed with his knowledge of the system, it was sensory overload for me, but I'm new to AK also.
My take as a non-master of anything, is I see, feel and believe what is put in front of me, not what is told to me. I was very happy in Seattle when Mr. Labounty said that he was a "mechanical learner" to that I can relate. Some day I'll have the opportunity to train with one or more of the persons in the posts. Then I'll make MY own decisions. Until then, lets just let the 20 or so 10th's discuss this amongst themselves. I'm sure if we put them in a room for a discussion civility, compromise and brotherhood would prevail?
Thanks again to the many who exercise reason...
Patrick


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Iron Dog _
> *Doc, Mr. Chapel, Well said! I for one am weary of all the turmoil of who is and who isn't. People will follow those who they are most comfortable with for their own reasons. If there are phoney high ranking "Grand Masters" history will expose them. Invoking the name of Mr. Parker, or anyone, will not do any good. If they are legitimate, their art will prevail throughout the ages and they too will have their following and destiny.
> I met Mr. Conaster in Seattle, actually listened in on some conversation, and I was very impressed with his knowledge of the system, it was sensory overload for me, but I'm new to AK also.
> My take as a non-master of anything, is I see, feel and believe what is put in front of me, not what is told to me. I was very happy in Seattle when Mr. Labounty said that he was a "mechanical learner" to that I can relate. Some day I'll have the opportunity to train with one or more of the persons in the posts. Then I'll make MY own decisions. Until then, lets just let the 20 or so 10th's discuss this amongst themselves. I'm sure if we put them in a room for a discussion civility, compromise and brotherhood would prevail?
> Thanks again to the many who exercise reason...
> Patrick *



Yeah, you can't go wrong listening to Dennis. He's a man who extremely detail oriented and has the intellect to back it up. He and I go at it all the time discussing various aspects of kenpo from our very different perspectives. Sometimes we agree, and sometime we don't. I have a tremendous amount of respect for him and I presume vice versa. 

One thing for sure we laugh a lot more than we fight. No matter what position I take, it doesn't affect him or what he teaches one bit. It never diminishes his Kenpo knowledge or skill and somehow we manage to stay friends. Neither one of us cares about each others rank. It never has been or will ever be an issue. That seems to be the case for all of the secure, mature, and rational students of anything. And from an "old man's" perspective the rest are just whiners holding onto the very little Kenpo prestige they think they have.


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## Rob_Broad

This thread has gone on for quite a while now and every time it pops up I just can't help but having a joke pop into head.

 How many Kenpo 10th degrees does it take to change a light bulb?

 My answer is none.  Because the would all be arguing about which way SGM Parker taught them how to do it, so it would be changed by the first white belt to show any initiative.


----------



## webpage20022003

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *
> 
> As much as we would like to think it's "pure," there were many aspects to his different versions, and one of those many components was quite simply a business. Ed Parker made a living and took care of his rather large family and bought everyone of his children a house, and took care of them in the family business.
> *



i didn't know that ed parker has a big family. When i think of ed parker, i only think of american kenpo. You help me understand ANOTHER SIZE of Ed parker as well so that we can have a complete picture of who he really was.

i'm pretty sure that there are many TRUE american kenpo masters out there. My question is why don't you all stand up and condem such FAKE grandmaster and BOGUS claims like U.S , U.K, and other countries stood up and attack Iraq?

perhaps, it is too much to do and obviously involves POLITIC???????


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> *i didn't know that ed parker has a big family. When i think of ed parker, i only think of american kenpo. You help me understand ANOTHER SIZE of Ed parker as well so that we can have a complete picture of who he really was.
> 
> i'm pretty sure that there are many TRUE american kenpo masters out there. My question is why don't you all stand up and condem such FAKE grandmaster and BOGUS claims like U.S , U.K, and other countries stood up and attack Iraq?
> 
> perhaps, it is too much to do and obviously involves POLITIC??????? *


The real ones don't care, and all the noise comes from those who weren't there who pass along rumors from people who have their own agenda. When you start fighting over a lie someone told you twice removed, you're really deep into the "telephone game." I worked cases where someone died because someone told somebody something about someone else who "dissed me," and it was all bogus from start to finish. That's  middle school mentality.


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## Sigung86

Webpage, my fine friend... I bet you didn't know that SGM Parker was a master of the ukelele as well!  I have a video around here somewhere of him playing the dang thing... Funny to see such light masterful playing by such a large guy on such a little, teeny instrument.  

There are many, many sides to the man, the myth, and the legend.  People often forget he didn't walk on water, at least not all the time.  I'm not EPAK, so I am not as close as many would be to the subject, but I have some very highly placed friends who have regaled me with stories of him...  Some of them place him in a very human light.

Take care,

Dan


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## webpage20022003

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> * someone died because someone told somebody something about someone else who "dissed me," and it was all bogus from start to finish. That's  middle school mentality. *



all i can say is......it's a freaking chaos in Kenpo system. May i say. ? Peace be with someone. :asian:

have another personal question for you , Doc. Hope you don't mind to answer it.

If Ed Parker Sr is alive today, do you think the chaos in American Kenpo will be this BIG?

and will American kenpo system be DIFFERENT in the future with or without Ed Parker Sr?

i know that I only ask you to answer 1 question but i guess i'm so greedy to ask you 2 questions. Hopefully, you will give your insight

thank you


----------



## Doc

> If Ed Parker Sr is alive today, do you think the chaos in American Kenpo will be this BIG?


Yep! It's always been this way. Look at all the people that broke away and promoted themselves while Parker was alive. It's a very long list. Many came back AFTER he died because they couldn't while he was alive. Most claimed to be went him for years, but all that meant is they knew him for years. Some went on to other things and disapeared only to show up after his death to claim their Kenpo heritage, and make a quick buck on a project. 

Every 8 to 10 years he lost lots of people, and many went into business for themselves using Parker's business model and actually competed with him. All they cared about was rank and status and didn't want to really learn anything. It hasn't changed. Some of those names people know really well. Many were just in the "business" for the "business."


> and will American kenpo system be DIFFERENT in the future with or without Ed Parker Sr?


Huh? I'll let someone else answer that one.


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## Billy Lear

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Yep! It's always been this way. Look at all the people that broke away and promoted themselves while Parker was alive. It's a very long list. Many came back AFTER he died because they couldn't while he was alive. Most claimed to be went him for years, but all that meant is they knew him for years. Some went on to other things and disapeared only to show up after his death to claim their Kenpo heritage, and make a quick buck on a project.
> *



 Unfortunately... It smells like the truth. :shrug:


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## roryneil

It's all very facinating to read all this and try to figure it out, but it really doesn't mean anything to the "new" generation of kenpo students. I study an art I enjoy, I know my teacher is a good one. I don't really know anything about Mr. Parker other than what I read and from pictures. I wish people didn't keep their videos locked in a sacred vault because I would like to see kenpo in motion performed by the founder of the art.
  Other than that, I think an intelligent student, although not expert in the art him/herself, can tell a good instructor from a bad one. And both will get my SHOWN respect, no matter how I feel about them in my mind.
  At camp, I certainly treat all the Black Belts who come and instruct with the same respect I show my instructor. In fact, that IS showing respect to my instructor, right?


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## webpage20022003

Doc,

have 1 last question for you.

 Are you thinking about writing a book about American Kenpo or Ed Parker in the future so that students and OTHER can have a complete picture about the ARt, Founder, and organization ?

Perhaps, you already did write the book ????????

i didn't know anything about american kenpo before reading your posts. YOu completely change my views. I don't want to say that i know BLOODY much now.

It's really interesting to hear your point of view. It seems to be right on the points and certainly POWERFUL. You seem to know a lot too.

if you think about writing a book in the future, please make sure you have 1 acedemic version so that the student can have...let say....student discount when they buy your book.     

i never see you in seminar but i will come to your seminar if you have one in the future. I really want to see your sub level 4. Hearing and reading are not enough. I MUST SEE it

Keep up the good work !


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> *Doc,
> 
> have 1 last question for you.
> 
> Are you thinking about writing a book about American Kenpo or Ed Parker in the future so that students and OTHER can have a complete picture about the ARt, Founder, and organization ?
> 
> Perhaps, you already did write the book ????????
> 
> i didn't know anything about american kenpo before reading your posts. YOu completely change my views. I don't want to say that i know BLOODY much now.
> 
> It's really interesting to hear your point of view. It seems to be right on the points and certainly POWERFUL. You seem to know a lot too.
> 
> if you think about writing a book in the future, please make sure you have 1 acedemic version so that the student can have...let say....student discount when they buy your book.
> 
> i never see you in seminar but i will come to your seminar if you have one in the future. I really want to see your sub level 4. Hearing and reading are not enough. I MUST SEE it
> 
> Keep up the good work ! *



Honestly I would not be the one to write a book on overall Ed Parker American Kenpo. The broad business took him to a lot of people and places and situations I was not involved in. Ed Parker Jr. said it best. he said I ws on "an island with his Father." I was a working uniformed police officer for much of the time. Mostly I just made my self available to him, worked on the IKC, and various projects. Couldn't travel with him a lot but we made some trips. I was purposely separated frfom a lot. I'm sure there are others that could give a much broader picture of the art as well as on Parker. My relationship was beyond Kenpo and very personal first, Kenpo second. But that also gave me access to extraordinary non-mainstream information.

I am only a guy who can tell you what he personally knows, and my personal experiences, as well as my knowledge acquired in my interaction with him. At best I might write a chapter. My chapter, that's all. 

But I do write and say things that others won't or don't know about, but there is a reason I can do that. Nothing I say or do affects my students, teaching, or goals in Kenpo.  I'm not in the business of kenpo so I have no fear of losing or not acquiring students because of it. I'm not recruiting, so I have no business to protect, and I'm not suggesting my way is the only way. Those who have seen me in seminars, or met me in person seem to feel I know what I'm doing. That's good enough for me and fulfills my promise to my friend Ed Parker. He said, "Spread the gospel brudda." That's what I do, and will continue to give people an honest perspective. No more or less. You come, you ask, I'll tell. Ummm, maybe that is one of the reason I don't get invited to do many seminars anymore. The attendees always seemed to give me high marks, but thats not my call.


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> * Ummm, maybe that is one of the reason I don't get invited to do many seminars anymore. *



You know I was thinking about asking this very question during one of my posts in the tech. threads. I didn't know if it would be too personal or not. If you wish not to answer then that is fine with me.

Do you personally get invited to do seminars with others? During any of the big group seminars that last 2 or 3 days or camps etc.? You were obviously there as kenpo evolved. Even though you took your own path to teach the SL-4 and refine your branch of the art do find it somewhat upsetting that most don't invite you? :asian:  As I've said before if you get back into Columbus with Mr. King post it up here on MT 'cause I'll be there regardless!


----------



## tarabos

> _Originally posted by roryneil _
> *I wish people didn't keep their videos locked in a sacred vault because I would like to see kenpo in motion performed by the founder of the art.*



i very much agree with you on that. i will never understand why it is not shared more often.


----------



## Doc

> Do you personally get invited to do seminars with others? During any of the big group seminars that last 2 or 3 days or camps etc.? You were obviously there as kenpo evolved. Even though you took your own path to teach the SL-4 and refine your branch of the art do find it somewhat upsetting that most don't invite you? :asian:  As I've said before if you get back into Columbus with Mr. King post it up here on MT 'cause I'll be there regardless!



Well thank you, I appreciate that and will certainly do that. Andrew King is a good guy and a strong supporter. Even though he cannot get out to see me like he would like to, (hes in law school and a new baby) hes a strong supporter, and refuses to study with anyone else after our lessons.

To be honest about the camps, sometimes it bothers me and then at others it doesnt. I have mixed emotions because at heart I feel I am an excellent teacher and have taught in academia.  I have put in more years and was a black belt when some now 10 ths were white belts. 

I truly enjoy the sharing process and seeing people becoming aware of different perspectives that they can physically prove to themselves. Every camp I ever did, I was deemed the most popular and inundated with requests for more information. Unfortunately you cant learn true skills by video, no matter what anyone says. But then that brings us back to the business of Kenpo that drives everything. 

The other thing is few from the commercial interpretation can make a transition without literally scrapping what they thought they knew because the contridictions are just too great.  They have to "unlearn" the motion bad habits and inefficient (from our curriculum perspective and goals) methodology. 

But the truth is Im not main-stream and raise a lot of questions. My students and I display skills and knowledge that many with significant rank who control camps, cannot duplicate or answer.

I have knocked out and dropped people in camps with 2 simple taps from a yellow belt technique, and astounded participants.  I have with one move, tapped a guy and drop him to the floor and have him stare up at me dazed. I have shown and corrected poor body mechanics that dismayed people and gave them strength and power they didnt know was possible all on video. I gave people knowledge their teachers didnt have. And I also have had people prefer to stay in my seminars instead of going to see the other instructors, and that too was a big problem.  

Admittedly, the dessemination of significant information has to be disconcerting for those in the business where numbers in associations, schools, and camps is important, and their status (read ego) as a knowledgeable master in the arts cant be challenged. That I understand so, whatever.  But in fairness, there are some significant ranks that feel I do have some valuable information to offer, but unfortunately, they dont control the few camps. 

Many Ranks are very insecure about their knowledge and should be. Then there are guys like Dennis Conatser who is so smart and knows his stuff so well, it doesn't bother him at all.

So I stay in Los Angeles, continue to be politically incorrect, and my students just seem to stay.


----------



## Sigung86

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *...
> 
> Many Ranks are very insecure about their knowledge and should be. Then there are guys like Dennis Conatser who is so smart and knows his stuff so well, it doesn't bother him at all.
> 
> So I stay in Los Angeles, continue to be politically incorrect, and my students just seem to stay. *



Go figure!!!  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by tarabos _
> *i very much agree with you on that. i will never understand why it is not shared more often. *



Cool Avitar(s)!  I loved that game!  I used to play it all the time!


----------



## kenpo3631

Mr. Chapel' you previously stated...



> Many Ranks are very insecure about their knowledge and should be. Then there are guys like Dennis Conatser who is so smart and knows his stuff so well, it doesn't bother him at all.



Mr. Conatser is mentioned quite a bit in this thread in the context above. What do you think about some of the other Kenpo "Seniors" like Mr. Planas, Trejo, LaBounty, Sullivan and the "Not So Seniors" besides Conatser, like Wedlake, Hancock, Palanzo and others?:asian:


----------



## jdmills

As far as Joe Palanzo is concerned, I know for a fact that he was a 7th in 1987.  I think that makes him a "senior" in nearly anyone's book.  I studied under him at his Ed Parker's Karate Studio at that time.  He obviously had not broken from Mr. Parker of the IKKA and to my knowledge (which after 1988 is not first-hand) he did not leave the IKKA until after Mr. Parker's death.


----------



## kenpo3631

> _Originally posted by jdmills _
> *As far as Joe Palanzo is concerned, I know for a fact that he was a 7th in 1987.  I think that makes him a "senior" in nearly anyone's book.  I studied under him at his Ed Parker's Karate Studio at that time.  He obviously had not broken from Mr. Parker of the IKKA and to my knowledge (which after 1988 is not first-hand) he did not leave the IKKA until after Mr. Parker's death. *



Great point, but that is not what I am asking Mr. Chapel'.  :asian:


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *Mr. Chapel' you previously stated...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Conatser is mentioned quite a bit in this thread in the context above.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I mention Conatser because hes the only one I personally interact with on a regular basis. He picks up the phone and calls and we talk about a lot of things beyond kenpo as well. We saw each other often at Parkers house in the eighties.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think about some of the other Kenpo "Seniors" like Mr. Planas, Trejo,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course from my perspective Frank and Huk and most of the others are not seniors. I remember when Huk came over about 69 as a brown belt. I was the referee of Franks first tournament when he was a white belt at the IKC. Palanzo was coming out here for lessons with the Old man and was a green belt, but was a black belt back east runing his schools, etc. anyway Huks contribution to the material that most subscribe to is immeasurable, so he probably understands it better or as well as anyone. Frank to me is simply a physically gifted individual that was apparent to me from the beginning. I feel he clearly was the most naturally physically gifted person in kenpo that Ive seen.
> 
> LaBounty*
> 
> The personification of what a modern master should be. Integrity, Intelligence, and always a gentleman, but don't think he can't smack you around if you get out of hand  He continues to educate himself.  Of course hes an old cop so what would you expect? (OK so Im biased)
> 
> *Sullivan*
> 
> Simply an old school tough guy who in his seventies can still kick your *** and was there at the beginning. In the old days when the commercial schools were concentrating on techniques Chuck ran the only school that was still "bangin" and sparring regularly. Steve Sanders instructor.
> 
> *Wedlake*
> 
> One of the good guys who constantly expands on his knowledge, very smart guy, and a hell of a writer
> 
> *Hancock*
> 
> Also very intelligent, constantly searching for new innovative ways to convey information to students, and extremely well organized. Helped Parker a lot with the Infinite Series.
> 
> *Palanzo*
> 
> Although I have seen and met Polanzo off and on over the years when he would come out to the IKC or Parkers house, I really dont know him personally that well.


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## kenpo3631

Thank you for delving into your experiences with some of Mr. Parker's students. 

I noticed that most of the people I listed in my post weren't "seniors". They were like 2nd generation so to speak, "old timers". 

Who would you consider "THE" "seniors".:asian:


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *Thank you for delving into your experiences with some of Mr. Parker's students.
> 
> I noticed that most of the people I listed in my post weren't "seniors". They were like 2nd generation so to speak, "old timers".
> 
> Who would you consider "THE" "seniors".:asian: *


Some more like third and fourth generation. Anyway everybody is senior to somebody, but everything is relative. My seniors are Woo, Castro, Sullivan, Ibrao, Hebler. There are others who are not necessarily my senior in the arts but whom I have a great deal of respect for like the Great Tom Kell(e)y, Steve Herring (Franks Instructor), and others. I studied with Ark Wong before coming to Parker and was a BB when I met him in 63.


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## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Frank....clearly was the most naturally physically gifted person in kenpo that Ive seen.*



That is a huge compliment, because you've come across some old school guys that were very physically gifted at that time as well, right? Tommy Chavis, Steve Sanders (goes without saying), and many of those old BKF guys that will remain forever nameless...

jb:asian:


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *That is a huge compliment, because you've come across some old school guys that were very physically gifted at that time as well, right? Tommy Chavis, Steve Sanders (goes without saying), and many of those old BKF guys that will remain forever nameless...
> 
> jb:asian: *


Well JB that is true, but to be honest I don't consider BKF to be "Kenpo" as most of us would mean it. You see they do not subscribe to any of the basics, principles, or concepts of kenpo and teach none of it's techniques, forms, or vocabulary. It bares no resemblance to any of Ed Parker's interpretations and it's teaching is completely unique in the martial arts. It is so much of an anomolous art that it only bares the name "kenpo" because that is Steves roots. 

But Steve comes from a time before the art had evolved, and because of his naturals skills at sparring, that is pretty much all he did and subsequently taught in a sport based interpretation. He was so good at it, that's all he needed to do, and subsequently teach to students, as well as compete as a member of the competition team at the time. 

As Parker moved to the technique based system, Steve as a student in the Chuck Sullivan school continued to concentrate on sparring. And that was fine with Chuck Sullivan because he too was a "fighter." You could roam from Kenpo school to Kenpo school and do techniques, but everyone knew if you wanted to "thump" you had to go to the Chuck Sullivan school. It was common knowledge and was known informally as the "fighting school." When Steve began teaching on his own, he taught sparring and awarded rank unceremoniously for sparring ability and competition success.

That being said there were many very talented guys, many of which I was involved in their training. Most of the well known competitors came from other schools to learn to spar and did well. There was an instructor name Bill Short who ran a traditional school teaching what he called Kobayashi Ryu. Students like Earnest Russell, Ricky Heath, Gary Goodman left there and came over to train.  Sammy Spain came form Tae Kwon Do. I recruited and trained Lenny Ferguson from my old Gung fu school at Grandmaster Ark Wong's. Alfred "Hot Dog" Harvey, Vontrea Moss,  Kraiguer Smith, came from Shorin Ryu,  Frank Wilson who came from Chicago and studied with John Keehan, etc.

Unquestionably the fastest guy on earth was Frank Wilson. I saw Jim Kelly throw a side kick at Frank in a tournament. Frank dropped under the side kick to the floor and threw a sidekick from the floor up to his groin with perfect control, and when Kelly retracted the kick, Frank was back on his feet and Kelly never saw that he "wasn't "there" and questioned where the point came from. 

Ricky Heath was also incredibly fast. A nice man who toured as a bassist with "The Brothers Johnson" (for those old enough to remember) and ultimately became a Sheriff's Deputy. 

The most prominant in the speed category was Lenny Ferguson. I saw Lenny at the IKC angle off and throw a roundhouse kick at his opponent and knock him off his feet. As the opponent fell, Lenny recocked the kick in the air and adjusted it's trajectory and kicked him again, both with full power.

There were a lot of very talented guys but only a couple ever tackled Ed Parker's "system."


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## Billy Lear

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *"Unquestionably the fastest guy on earth was Frank Wilson. I saw Jim Kelly throw a side kick at Frank in a tournament. Frank dropped under the side kick to the floor and threw a sidekick from the floor up to his groin with perfect control, and when Kelly retracted the kick, Frank was back on his feet and Kelly never saw that he "wasn't "there" and questioned where the point came from. " *



I have always wanted to do that!


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *I have always wanted to do that!  *


I actually did do it once, at least that is what the paramedics told me.


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## webpage20022003

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *I actually did do it once, at least that is what the paramedics told me. *



why the paramedics told you? i thought your instructor or your friends told you that ?   

how long did you stay in the hospital ?


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## kenpo3631

_Taken from the KenpoNET from Angelo Collado_ 

Its True! I workout at Trejo's house on Monday and Wed Eve in his garage. On Mondays we do Stickyhands variation drills/forms and technique work covering the belt material. On Wed eve we bang and run the line. We play alot, graft alot mix up all the technques and create some kick *** KENPO!
Trejo announced on Monday that we are officially meeting starting on Wed(Tommorrow) at the Pasadena School at 6:00PM. We will drill and run the line. I personally invite all you local blackbelts to come over and bang with us. We are supporting the new IKKA movement and I hope you will all keep an open mind to all the new changes.
*Frank Trejo is now the first 10th in the IKKA and will be the lead player along with a few more well established Blackbelt seniors. Come one come all!!!* 
Angelo Collado


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## Billy Lear

Huk Planas is the second tenth degree in the IKKA... He sigend on two weeks ago.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS


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## kenpo3631

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *Huk Planas is the second tenth degree in the IKKA... He sigend on two weeks ago.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Billy Lear, UKS *




Suuuuhhhhweeeeeet!

(I hate the fact that you Cali guys get all the good info before us East Coasters...:rofl: )


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## Billy Lear

Mike Cappi knew this before I did. Where you been brother? Oh yeah that's right, saving the world (literally)... In that case never mind.  

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *Mike Cappi knew this before I did. Where you been brother? Oh yeah that's right, saving the world (literally)... In that case never mind.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Billy Lear, UKS *



Not meant to bust any bubbles, but I never left the IKKA.


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## John James

To whom it may concern,
I am sorry that I am posting this rather late.  In July and August of 2003, Mr. Idol and Mr. Hall both posted responses about Professor Nick Cerio that were incorrect and I would like to speak on behalf of professor Cerio as he is not with us any longer.  It was said that Prof. Cerio entered the IKKA a high rank and was allowed to keep it.... Prof. Cerio met SGM Parker in 1966.  He was a Shodan.  He relationship continued with Master Parker until Approx. 1984-5.  In 1969, SGM Parker tested Prof. Cerio for his Sandan (verified by the diploma, date will only be given via private email).  It was also said that Prof. Cerio had an expiration date on his 9th Diploma.  This is false.  I have a copy of the original diploma.  I am sorry if this news is offensive to people but since Prof. Cerio's passing in 1998, many people have been attacking this promotion in particular.  I can partially understand why you may be angry but facts are facts.  Prof. Cerio received a 9th Dan from SGM Parker.  As for Prof. Cerio not being 'productive', SGM Parker would have never got a foot in New England if it wasn't for Prof. Cerio.  He brought SGM Parker in for seminars as early as 1968.  I don't mean to offend anyone with this post, but could you please let this issue rest.  If anyone has any 'proof' to the contrary of what I have said, I would like to hear it.  You can email me privately at nickcerioskenpo@hotmail.com.  Otherwise, I don't take rumors or jealously as fact.

Sincerely
John James,
Nick Cerio's Kenpo


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by John James _
> *To whom it may concern,
> I am sorry that I am posting this rather late.  In July and August of 2003, Mr. Idol and Mr. Hall both posted responses about Professor Nick Cerio that were incorrect and I would like to speak on behalf of professor Cerio as he is not with us any longer.  It was said that Prof. Cerio entered the IKKA a high rank and was allowed to keep it.... Prof. Cerio met SGM Parker in 1966.  He was a Shodan.  He relationship continued with Master Parker until Approx. 1984-5.  In 1969, SGM Parker tested Prof. Cerio for his Sandan (verified by the diploma, date will only be given via private email).  It was also said that Prof. Cerio had an expiration date on his 9th Diploma.  This is false.  I have a copy of the original diploma.  I am sorry if this news is offensive to people but since Prof. Cerio's passing in 1998, many people have been attacking this promotion in particular.  I can partially understand why you may be angry but facts are facts.  Prof. Cerio received a 9th Dan from SGM Parker.  As for Prof. Cerio not being 'productive', SGM Parker would have never got a foot in New England if it wasn't for Prof. Cerio.  He brought SGM Parker in for seminars as early as 1968.  I don't mean to offend anyone with this post, but could you please let this issue rest.  If anyone has any 'proof' to the contrary of what I have said, I would like to hear it.  You can email me privately at nickcerioskenpo@hotmail.com.  Otherwise, I don't take rumors or jealously as fact.
> 
> Sincerely
> John James,
> Nick Cerio's Kenpo *



by all mean, can you post the picture of this original diploma here through link or something so that everybody can see.?

 Thanks


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## John James

Dear CoolKempoDude,
I would like to do just that but Professor Cerio's family would consider it very poor taste to put Professor Cerio's certificate on the web.  I can only think that if anyone who is in Massachusetts, please let me know ahead of time and I will make arrangements for you to view it. 

Sincererly
John James


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## Ceicei

After wading through so many posts and and so much quibbling, I haven't seen anyone bring up this issue.

Are there any more female Kenpo 10th's than the two I see on the list eons of posts ago?  Just curious.

- Ceicei


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## jfarnsworth

I didn't know there were any female 10ths.


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## Michael Loughrie12343

Bryan Hawkins is NOT a 10th Degree Black Belt. He is my teacher and he is an 8th Degree Black Belt. He was promoted to 8th Degree Black Belt in 2010 or 2011.


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## Blindside

You just resurrected a thread from 12 years ago....

I am pretty certain that nobody was looking at it for current information.


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## Tames D

Blindside said:


> You just resurrected a thread from 12 years ago....
> 
> I am pretty certain that nobody was looking at it for current information.


I appreciate the information. Is there something wrong with bringing back an old thread?


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## KenpoMaster805

MY Sifu Jesus Flores Was a 10 degree in American Kenpo karate


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## Twin Fist

too many


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## Touch Of Death

Tames D said:


> I appreciate the information. Is there something wrong with bringing back an old thread?


Not at all, but rest assured, people will call you on it, anyway.


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