# Broken neck in BJJ Tournament (OUCH)



## 1Ganger (Jul 17, 2015)

does this happen very often in BJJ tournaments?


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## Buka (Jul 17, 2015)

No.


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## K-man (Jul 18, 2015)

Illegal move with devastating result. I hope the guy who did it got sued for everything he owned.


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## Hanzou (Jul 18, 2015)

No it doesn't.

However, freak accidents like that is part of the reason I stopped competing.


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## Transk53 (Jul 18, 2015)

Was that intended or just a tragic screw up. What should the move had of been?


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## kuniggety (Jul 18, 2015)

You're not allowed to pick up your opponent and slam them. This is the reason why as the guy on bottom's body swung a bit when they guy on top did it to him and resulted in this. He should have done any of the myriad of guard passes available. It looks like the bottom guy was going for a triangle or something... Hard to tell with the video quality but the guys response was unexcusable.


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## Transk53 (Jul 18, 2015)

Right okay. Was not sure, but the body slam looks plausible.


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## kuniggety (Jul 18, 2015)

I've watched it a few times, trying to pick out the details. I'm not sure if he intentionally flipped him over or was trying to stack him but made the mistake of pulling on him too much back and up that caused the flipping of the body. Stacking is a perfectly legit technique where you force a person's feet over their head. Depending on the flexibility of the person on the bottom it can be rather uncomfortable but some folks get pretty good at defending/playing from such a position. I have a really really good blue belt in my school that likes to play open guard and one of the techniques I use to try to pass his guard is stacking and at least half of the time he can should roller out of it into another good position. It was either the intentional flipping - to get him into a sprawled position or a poorly executed stacking that resulted in this.


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## elder999 (Jul 18, 2015)

Maybe as much the ref's fault in this instance-he might have seen that coming, and stopped it. More to the point, though, rolling the guy over was not the thing to do after this took place-it might have exacerbated the injury to paralysis....


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 18, 2015)

Tragic no matter what for the person injured.  Very sad!


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## Steve (Jul 19, 2015)

Looking at it, it's kind of a freak accident thing.   It didn't look like an intentional slam, nor did it look like anything different from things I've seen a thousand times,   The video is hard to see, but it appears to be white belts.   But I don't think it was against the rules or really anything "wrong" at all.  Regarding suing him, that's just terrible.  

To answer the original question, no,mint doesn't happen often at all.   Serious injuries of any kind are rare, but certainly possible.  I was just at a tournament yesterday with over 700 competitors at all skill levels, and the worst thing I recall were some sore elbows.

I hope the kid is okay.


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## Steve (Jul 19, 2015)

Alright.  Still on an iPad, so don't know what autocorrect will do to me.   But I was able to find some more information on this.  

First, these guys were white belts, so take that for what it's worth.   The kid whose neck broke was 15 years old, and the other guy was 19.  At least, that's what I found.  The 15 year old was competing in an adult division.   Kids divisions have a lot of protections for the neck. Fewer for adults, particularly as you move up in belt level.

As I said above, the move wasn't malicious, and is not against the rules.   I use it all the time, particularly against guys who like to work a flexible open guard.   A video is below of how it's supposed to look. 






This is tragic, but it's no ones fault, except maybe the coaches for allowing the kid to compete against adults too soon.  Rushing to judgement and advocating lawsuits is just horrible, and would only make a sad situation worse.


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## Buka (Jul 19, 2015)

When I was a brown belt (Karate) I was leaving a tournament after being eliminated. Right by the door was a green belt division going on and I was friendly with a kid who was competing, so I stopped, sat and watched.

Never got to see him fight. 

A match was going and on and a green belt threw a jump kick at his opponent. The opponent reacted and threw his hands up. The kicker's foot got caught in the other guy's sleeve and flipped his balance a hundred and eighty degrees and he landed on his head. His neck broke. Freak accident. But I was sitting ten feet away and it still haunts me if I think about it. The vid of that Jits tournament match brought it all back. As a city kid and retired cop I've been around bodies before, you compartmentalize, deal, and do your job.

But that Jits vid kind of shook me.


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## Steve (Jul 19, 2015)

Which part, kman?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 19, 2015)

I think if we look at this situation it is quite frankly a freak accident.  I agree with Steve in that the coaches/group hosting the tournament should not have allowed a 15 year old to compete with men.  No matter what we personally decide here it is absolutely tragic for this young man and his family.


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## K-man (Jul 20, 2015)

> In most Jiu-Jitsu tournaments the list of illegal techniques contains the obvious eye-gouging and punching. The more subtle include knee-reaping and the use of slamming from guard.
> 
> Many MMA fights continue after a submission from guard is locked in because the opponent stands, picks up the person and slams them to the ground. In severe cases this can result in loss of consciousness or even paralysis as in the case of fifteen-year-old Gabriel Diniz who lost the use of his arms and legs after being dropped on his neck. Fortunately, he has regained some movement in his shoulders and feeling in his legs. Discharged from the hospital and now working towards recovery in a physical therapy rehabilitation center, he has hope to one day get back on the mats.



The dangers of slamming and how to prevent your opponent from picking you up GRACIEMAG


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## Steve (Jul 20, 2015)

K-man said:


> The dangers of slamming and how to prevent your opponent from picking you up GRACIEMAG


How is this relevant here?  The kid wasn't slammed.  You're reacting emotionally and don't have enough knowledge to understand what you're talking about.  

The article is correct that slams are dangerous, and illegal in most Jiu Jitsu tournaments.


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## Steve (Jul 20, 2015)

Related to my last post, I've been thinking this through.  It would help this discussion to add some clarity regarding what is and isn't a slam. 

The truth is, it's really a judgment call in most cases, that often revolves around a referee's determination of control and intent.  If you look in the IBJJF rulebook, a slam is listed as an illegal technique which will result in immediate DQ at all levels.  But while there is a full page, along with pictures, of what constitutes the reaping of the knee, there is no further explanation of the term "slam."  I guess they think it's like porn.  You'll know it when you see it.

But there are guidelines for determining whether something is a slam.  First, slams typically occur in two different phases of the game: takedowns and submission defense. 

In a takedown, it is typically considered a slam if the person executing the technique adds unnecessary force to the descent, or fails to adequately control the descent.  There are some signs that a take down may be a slam.  The guy executing the takedown holds the other guy in the air (in other words, there is an unnatural break in the execution of the technique).  The guy executing the takedown jumps into the air to add amplitude to the technique.  The guy doing the takedown is perceived to be adding his/her own weight to the takedown (such as coming over the top and driving a shoulder into the sternum unnecessarily).  Spiking the other guy.  All of this said, takedowns can hurt and there is some responsibility on the part of the competitors to know how to fall safely.  And even then, they can still hurt and not be considered a slam.  Usually, provided the takedown was executed as a single motion and none of the other items above were perceived, it will not be considered a slam. 

The other phase of the game where slams can occur is in submission defenses, within someone's guard.  This is kind of what we're looking at in the video in the OP.  What referees tend to look at here are, again, signs that there is intent to harm your opponent and a lack of control descent.  It usually starts on the mat and involves either slamming to defend a submission (armbar or triangle, usually), to open a closed guard, or in particularly egregious examples, just to make someone pay for jumping guard.  From guard, it's very cut and dry when something is a slam.  The guy is picked up and then dropped.  It's much less gray than in a takedown, and usually involves someone with a lack of technique just going ape.  While I have seen a black belt who should know better slam his opponent in a tournament while defending a triangle, it most often happens at the lower levels, where guys just don't have the tools and/or good sense to counter a submission attempt. 

Anyway, hope this helps the discussion.  I'll see if I can find some video examples of good and bad takedowns and also slams from guard, if I have time later.


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## K-man (Jul 20, 2015)

Steve said:


> How is this relevant here?  The kid wasn't slammed.  You're reacting emotionally and don't have enough knowledge to understand what you're talking about.
> 
> The article is correct that slams are dangerous, and illegal in most Jiu Jitsu tournaments.


I don't claim to have expertise here but these guys (Graciemag) do. If they say it's a slam and illegal I'll take their word for it. The guy is partially paralysed from a move that is technically illegal. His head was driven into the ground, intentional or not. There is not a sporting event anywhere that allows that action and if it is outside the rules of the event a victim is entitled to sue for civil damages if injury occurs regardless of any waiver signed.

I find your tone in describing me as 'reacting emotionally' extremely distasteful.


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## Steve (Jul 20, 2015)

K-man said:


> I don't claim to have expertise here but these guys (Graciemag) do. If they say it's a slam and illegal I'll take their word for it. The guy is partially paralysed from a move that is technically illegal. His head was driven into the ground, intentional or not. There is not a sporting event anywhere that allows that action and if it is outside the rules of the event a victim is entitled to sue for civil damages if injury occurs regardless of any waiver signed.


You have no expertise on a subject, but are making bold declarations and drawing extreme conclusions anyway.  Wow.  I recommend you go back to every kata thread you've participated in and take every bit of advice you've given to Hanzou or others.  Apply the standard to which you hold others to yourself. 

The graciemag link you provided is not news.  It's not any kind of analysis.  It's a general statement about slams that provides no details.  Even in the video they link to the difference between those slams and the situation in the OP is night and day. 

For the record, 'GracieMag' isn't a group of BJJ experts on competition or refereeing.  It is a group of people who are largely paid per post to provide puff pieces and soft news articles, including a lot of advertising for events and promotions.  Erin Herle is the person who wrote the blog entry you linked to above.  She's been training since 2009, according to her site, and I didn't see anywhere in her online resume that she's trained as a referee or has particular credentials that would make her analysis of what is or isn't a slam particularly authoritative.  I get that you don't like me, but get over yourself.  Don't listen to me.  Listen to Tony, or Buka, or anyone else.  They're all saying pretty much the same thing.  This was a tragic accident, but it was a fluke. 


> I find your tone in describing me as 'reacting emotionally' extremely distasteful.


What is distasteful is that you would advocate that the kid (19 years old) who did nothing wrong, get sued for everything he's worth.  Take a tragedy that has likely changed BOTH of these kids' lives forever anyway and make things worse.  And it's said that America is overly litigious.  Holy cow.  Your entire attitude in this thread has been distasteful, from your snap judgment based on ignorance, to your posting of what is little more than a blog entry on slams, in general, and concluding from a reference to the injury involved that it was an illegal technique. 

You have demonstrated that you aren't at all interested in understanding what happened. Against any evidence to the contrary, you will hold out that you are right and the people in this thread who ACTUALLY know something about the subject, are wrong.  I've said it.  Tony has said it.  Buka has said it.  Everyone with any grappling experience here agrees that this was a tragic, fluke accident.  But, you'll cling to this blog entry by a person who has less experience than anyone else in this thread, because it was posted on the internet.  Good grief.


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## jks9199 (Jul 20, 2015)

Gentlefolk,

Let's keep things friendly and not take shots at each other.  MartialTalk is supposed to be a place for FRIENDLY discussion of the martial arts.

jks9199
Administrator


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## Steve (Jul 20, 2015)

For what it's worth, in looking for examples of what is or isn't a slam, I've seen some horrific neck injuries in soccer.  @K-man, would you advocate the other guy be sued for everything he's worth in a soccer match where a neck injury occurs?  I wouldn't.  What about if this were on the football field?  Man, I've seen kids injured in some fluke ways and it's sickening to see it whenever it happens, but I truly don't believe we should rush to judgment.  We need to remember that there was ANOTHER kid involved, as well.  In this case, we have a 15 year old and a 19 year old.  Both kids, as far as I'm concerned.  And I saw no evidence of malice.

Also, you mention that the move is technically illegal.  This is just wrong.  While terribly unfortunate it was not an illegal move.  I shared an instructional on the technique.  I provided some additional insight into what a slam is and isn't.  You don't understand and that's okay.  But you're digging your heels in and that doesn't help the discussion. 

I get that you dislike hearing what I'm telling you, but you're just on the wrong side of this one.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 20, 2015)

*Actually Steve, I vouch for K-man*.  He is an extremely talented and gifted martial practitioner.  One whom I would be happy to have at my back in an alley.  While grappling may not be his area of expertise nor BJJ his field of study he is not a novice in this area at all and has worked with high level practitioners in this area.  I base this on personally training with him and seeing his movement.

*What we all can agree is that this incident is tragic*.

Just like this one:




happens around 3:45 or so

and this one which happens almost immediately:





*When competing in athletic events tragic incidents will happen*.  They are tragic for everyone competing and especially for the one severely injured and their family.

Where our energy would be better spent is how to prevent tragic injuries like this.  One way would simply not to allow a 15 year old underage male to compete with adult males.  Another would be for referees to really be on top of the rules and stop competitors in dangerous positions and restart them.  No slams is a good start but referees need to enforce this, stop in dangerous positions and go from there.  How they can do this and still incorporate so many advanced guard, open guard, etc. moves I am at a loss to explain.  *Needless to say the incident in the original OP and the videos I linked could easily happen at any tournament or competition by accident*.


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## Steve (Jul 20, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Actually Steve, I vouch for K-man*.  He is an extremely talented and gifted martial practitioner.  One whom I would be happy to have at my back in an alley.  While grappling may not be his area of expertise nor BJJ his field of study he is not a novice in this area at all and has worked with high level practitioners in this area.  I base this on personally training with him and seeing his movement.
> 
> *What we all can agree is that this incident is tragic*.
> 
> ...


Brian, frankly, he may be the most gifted, knowledgeable martial around, but he knows jack about competitive bjj, and it's obvious.  If he were willing to shut up and listen to people who know better, things would be great.  But instead, he's trotting out a blog post he found on Google, and because it has the name Gracie in it and kind of sort of supports his half baked position, it must be true,  

What remains true is that this was not an illegal technique, was not a slam, and advocating the kid get sued for everything he's worth is despicable.  The first two are fact.  That last is my opinion.

For the record, that ref did nothing wrong, and could not have prevented this from happening.   In a contact sport, whether it's soccer, football, rugby, wrestling or bjj, accidents happen.   Sometimes they're preventable and sometimes not.   This situation just sucks.  It's awful.  I just hope cooler heads prevailed and am glad kman wasn't around to make things worse.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 20, 2015)

*Steve, I agree that it was a freak accident.*  Not a slam and I do not think the referee in this incident could have prevented it.  Though there should be training on what to watch for at the very least.   What could have prevented it though was having a 15 year old competing against adult men.  Tragic incident for this kid and his family but if they had him compete against kid's his own age it might not have happened.  I would hope that future tournament organizers look at this closely as I am sure that the person who ran this tournament will be sued.  Unfortunately that is how the world seems to work and lord knows that boy's family will need lots of money for his medical bills.  I hope he also had good insurance for his tournament because he will probably need it.  I think this is also some thing that anyone who teaches grappling should look at as I could easily see this happening in a classroom setting as well.  I know I have been in some hairy positions and like anyone who has practiced grappling for a long time I have injuries that I wish I did not have.  My worst one was from a neck crank.  That one took a long time to fully heal.

*So how to prevent an injury like this and yet still grapple?* That is a question we can tackle!


* I also feel everyone should try to keep things friendly here as per jks9199 post above!  We are all practitioner's here and while we may disagree we can all go about it in a friendly manner. (saying this as a member not a moderator) *


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## elder999 (Jul 20, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Steve, I agree that it was a freak accident.*  Not a slam and I do not think the referee in this incident could have prevented it.  Though there should be training on what to watch for at the very least*



That's a fact. The guy looked a little nonchalant to me, like he could have been paying more attention, _if he knew how._


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## punisher73 (Jul 21, 2015)

It's the kind of thing that needs to be looked at for tournaments.  It is legal now, but maybe do some research on how many injuries occur from this move.  For example, heel hooks are illegal in many grappling tournaments due to the high injury rate of them.  Many neck cranks are already illegal for the same reason.

Here is a video of a slam, and one that surprises me that an injury didn't occur.  But, watching this video and seeing the other one, you can see how it was a fluke accident.





As to being sued.  I would have to disagree, an injury occured and a tragic one at that, but there is no evidence that there was ill intent to cause harm and the move was a legal move.  If he would have been in guard and picked up the opponent and then slammed him down to the mat like you see in many MMA matches, then you might have a different story.  

Not to mention, what about the other guy?  He has to live with the fact that he paralyzed that kid for life on accident.


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## Transk53 (Jul 21, 2015)

Is there not a apperatus involved where to White belts competing not be able to pull off certian moves? IE, ones that are considered at a next level, or indeed higher belt level, moves?


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## Zero (Jul 21, 2015)

This is purely horrific and a damn tragedy by all accounts.

It's so hard to say, and without an affidavit or script from the guy who pulled the move (for what that is worth), it's more than a little academic for anyone on this forum to be making a strong call as to whether it was legit/without bad intentions or a deliberate illegal move or intended to be a spear/pile-driver.

I couldn't see, did we have a transcript of any kind or sound bite from the guy as to his intentions?

That said, from looking at the clips numerous times for my two cents I am leaning a little to thinking at the least there could be negligence here, it looks like a very poorly performed and ill-intended move.  It was performed so badly that injury was a likely outcome.  I am the last to endorse suing in a competitive or sanctioned sports/fight environment - but if someone is doing illegal moves or carrying out uncontrolled, negligent techniques (a far greyer area I concede), then I say they may be fair game to litigation.  Let a court decide what his intentions were on the evidence and his submissions.


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## Zero (Jul 21, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> It's the kind of thing that needs to be looked at for tournaments.  It is legal now, but maybe do some research on how many injuries occur from this move.  For example, heel hooks are illegal in many grappling tournaments due to the high injury rate of them.  Many neck cranks are already illegal for the same reason.
> 
> Here is a video of a slam, and one that surprises me that an injury didn't occur.  But, watching this video and seeing the other one, you can see how it was a fluke accident.
> 
> ...



I know it sounds crazy but Fedor is Fedor, not many other humans out there like him.

I am struggling to follow your reasoning as to how the Fedor video illustrates the move in the Op's video was a fluke accident though...?  Are you saying because Fedor came out unscathed (and won the fight), the fact that a slam, spear or pile-driver is done on someone else should have the same result, otherwise any accident which occurs is a fluke?

The reason spear tackles are banned in rugby is because neck injury occurring is not a fluke, it may be "bad luck" but it ain't a fluke, it happens enough times to merit it being banned.  Same reason why same approach in many fight and wrestling tournaments now.


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## Steve (Jul 21, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Is there not a apperatus involved where to White belts competing not be able to pull off certian moves? IE, ones that are considered at a next level, or indeed higher belt level, moves?


Sure, Transk53, and it's already done to a large degree.  In kids divisions, any technique that puts pressure on the spine is banned. For example, in the kids brackets, a triangle is okay, but no pulling on the head to finish.  No guillotines.  No ezekiels.  Nothing that would exert pressure on the spine.

In adult divisions, neck cranks are illegal, and while you can use a can opener within closed guard, you have to let it go once the guard is open (in other words, that's a minor exception to the neck crank, but only because the guy on bottom can relieve the pressure on his neck by simply opening his guard.)

There is also a general principle for kids that tears equal tap.  In other words, if water comes out of your eyeball and lands on your cheek, you are done, whether you tapped or not.

I don't fault that referee one bit.  That technique is one I've seen countless times, and I've never seen it cause any injury to a person.

If the question on the table is how to prevent this in the future, I'd say the only thing that could have been done (or could be done in the future) is to be more mindful of putting kids into the adult brackets.  But even there, I'd say it's case by case, and really provided that the parents, the coaches and the kid were all in agreement and felt he was ready, I can see it.

But the bottom line is this.  I think this is a terrible thing, but I'm not convinced that anything like this could be avoided, any more than you can completely eliminate injuries in literally any activity.  It's a contact sport, just like any other.  Overall, I've seen fewer injuries in jiu jitsu than I've seen in much less time watching youth soccer or football games.

I was at a tournament just this last Saturday here in the Seattle/Tacoma area.  It was huge for a single day event.  There were over 800 gi matches and close to 450 no-gi matches.  No serious injuries and only a few minor ankle twists or sore elbows.  This is typical.  In 8 years, I've seen two serious injuries.  One was a neck injury from a guy who got stacked and rolled funny (not broken, but it was scary).  Another was a guy who reached back to catch himself on a takedown, and you can guess what happened to his arm.

I wasn't refereeing on Saturday, but I've reffed in the past.  I've been to many, many local referee training camps and have attended the "official" IBJJF seminar in the past as well, down in California.   I've seen probably over 10,000 competitive matches in person, some as a fan, some as a referee, and many working the tournament in some other capacity (usually managing the brackets).  Referees do look for dangerous situations, and they do anticipate trouble. 

I've actually seen referees in local tournaments tell a guy, "Watch the slam."  You can see it coming, when they pick the opponent up off the ground.  The athletes are all warned about dangerous techniques before they compete, whether it's heel hooks, neck cranks, slams or reaping the knee (which is a big one).

In addition, we make the kids brackets based upon the age, belt and weight of the kids who actually apply.  We discourage any child from cutting weight, and try to match the kids up with other kids who are about their same size, age and experience level.  It's a pain, but it's worth it, because you don't want a 12 year old yellow belt who weighs 65 lbs grappling against a 12 year old yellow belt who weighs 130 lbs.

My point is, I agree that we should do everything we can to keep people safe, but there's a point where you would have to bubble wrap kids to do this. The only sure fire way to keep a kid from getting injured doing anything is to prevent them from doing everything.


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## Steve (Jul 21, 2015)

Zero said:


> This is purely horrific and a damn tragedy by all accounts.
> 
> It's so hard to say, and without an affidavit or script from the guy who pulled the move (for what that is worth), it's more than a little academic for anyone on this forum to be making a strong call as to whether it was legit/without bad intentions or a deliberate illegal move or intended to be a spear/pile-driver.
> 
> ...


The emphasis is mine.  I would say you're right, if this was the case. 

But people who are familiar with competitive BJJ on this forum seem to all agree that this isn't what happened in this case.  We have one guy here, in k-man, who admits to knowing very little about the subject, asserting that the kid should be sued.  

Take a look at the instructional video I posted earlier in the thread.  If you watch that and then watch the video in the OP, I think it's pretty clear that this wasn't a malicious intent to spike or slam the competitor.  Rather, it was a fluke accident occurring in the execution of a common technique.  It's a damn shame, too. 

To be clear, I don't know whether anyone was sued or not.  I just think it would be a shame if that 19 year old kid had to go through that on top of knowing that he severely injured another person.  I can't imagine.


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## Zero (Jul 21, 2015)

Steve said:


> The emphasis is mine.  I would say you're right, if this was the case.
> 
> But people who are familiar with competitive BJJ on this forum seem to all agree that this isn't what happened in this case.  We have one guy here, in k-man, who admits to knowing very little about the subject, asserting that the kid should be sued.
> 
> ...



Hi Steve, the jury is still out, but having looked over that video you posted (thanks for that) several times and revisiting the original Op video, I understand completely where you are coming from, I do agree that it does seem like this would be the move he was trying...

...although by my eye, in your video, the practitioner in your video employed the move with a higher stance in bringing the opponent down as he was flipping so that the opponent was not so smothered into the ground and impacted on by his body weight as compared to the horrific original posted video, where the "flipper" damn well lands with all his weight on the bottom guy in such a vulnerable position.  Do you agree?  There may still be an argument that the technique was attempted so shockingly from a position or in a manner that could well do damage.


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## Zero (Jul 21, 2015)

Steve said:


> *I've actually seen referees in local tournaments tell a guy, "Watch the slam."*  You can see it coming, when they pick the opponent up off the ground.  The athletes are all warned about dangerous techniques before they compete, whether it's heel hooks, neck cranks, slams or reaping the knee (which is a big one).



That's a good point and good practice and you as a ref, and even as opponent, can often see/feel it coming.  One of my go to techniques which I have quite a bit of success with if I get it on, having drilled it so much, is going to front guillotine when standing/striking/in clinch and then transitioning straight into suplex and either staying arched on my back with a neck extension/crank or coming over and rolling on top as they hit the ground and going for ground and pound in mount.  I have on more than one occasion said to my opponent something like "are you ready/get ready" in competition when I am going for the take down, it seems silly for competition but I don't want to be responsible in tournament for damaging someone badly if they aren't ready to fall well.


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## Transk53 (Jul 21, 2015)

Steve said:


> Sure, Transk53, and it's already done to a large degree.  In kids divisions, any technique that puts pressure on the spine is banned. For example, in the kids brackets, a triangle is okay, but no pulling on the head to finish.  No guillotines.  No ezekiels.  Nothing that would exert pressure on the spine.
> 
> In adult divisions, neck cranks are illegal, and while you can use a can opener within closed guard, you have to let it go once the guard is open (in other words, that's a minor exception to the neck crank, but only because the guy on bottom can relieve the pressure on his neck by simply opening his guard.)
> 
> ...



Thanks. Makes a lot of sense to me relating that to the OP video. Often thought that trying to mitigate someone getting injured by going, and for want of a better term, OTT you have more chance of getting injured.


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## Steve (Jul 21, 2015)

Zero said:


> Hi Steve, the jury is still out, but having looked over that video you posted (thanks for that) several times and revisiting the original Op video, I understand completely where you are coming from, I do agree that it does seem like this would be the move he was trying...
> 
> ...although by my eye, in your video, the practitioner in your video employed the move with a higher stance in bringing the opponent down as he was flipping so that the opponent was not so smothered into the ground and impacted on by his body weight as compared to the horrific original posted video, where the "flipper" damn well lands with all his weight on the bottom guy in such a vulnerable position.  Do you agree?  There may still be an argument that the technique was attempted so shockingly from a position or in a manner that could well do damage.


Excellent points and you're absolutely right.  It's a tough one.  Any technique done incorrectly can be dangerous, and I agree with you that this kid executed the technique poorly.  But, really, even as I type this, I'm thinking that it happens all the time.  Rolling with white belts is crazy.  You just never know what they're going to do.


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## Argus (Jul 21, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *When competing in athletic events tragic incidents will happen*.  They are tragic for everyone competing and especially for the one severely injured and their family.
> 
> Where our energy would be better spent is how to prevent tragic injuries like this.  One way would simply not to allow a 15 year old underage male to compete with adult males.  Another would be for referees to really be on top of the rules and stop competitors in dangerous positions and restart them.  No slams is a good start but referees need to enforce this, stop in dangerous positions and go from there.  How they can do this and still incorporate so many advanced guard, open guard, etc. moves I am at a loss to explain.  *Needless to say the incident in the original OP and the videos I linked could easily happen at any tournament or competition by accident*.



I agree. To some extent, we just have to accept the risks involved. There are risks associated with anything, be it driving or Martial Arts. You just do what you can to reduce those risks.

I'm not so sure that referees who are more on top of things would be all that helpful, though. These things simply progress too fast for intervention in many cases. I think most accidents like this result first and foremost from the practitioners themselves not being aware of the positions they're putting their opponent in, and the danger present. Any time you have someone's weight resting on their head, neck, and you just crank away without care, you're going to cause injury. It may be more productive to raise awareness among competitors and teachers alike of the kind of injuries that can occur, and the situations they occur in -- perhaps even utilizing footage like this. It gets across the point much more relateably, and relevantly than any abstract "rule" which one is likely to forget or even work around in the moment.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 21, 2015)

I had a really hard time bringing myself to watch that. I have a visceral reaction to watching video where I know someone is about to get badly injured.

Having finally gotten myself to watch all the way through, Steve is right. The move the guy was trying to do is legal and is safe when done correctly. My instructor uses it against me all the time.

The problem is that he didn't perform the move correctly. The pass works by flipping the opponent over into turtle position, then moving around behind them to continue the attack. In this case the top guy started the flip, but before his opponent was all the way over he dropped his weight into a sprawl. The video is low quality, so I can't tell whether he didn't have proper balance to sustain the lift or if he was just rushing ahead to the next part of the sequence before finishing the first part. (Possibly it was a little of both.)

As far as how to avoid this sort of accident ... I'm not sure. To begin with, I don't teach that move to white belts. I don't trust them to have the control and awareness I would want someone to have when executing that technique. If there were more injuries with the pass, then tournaments might start banning it (or restricting it to higher ranks) , but I haven't heard of other occasions of this sort of accident. Unfortunately, the ref really didn't have time to react and intervene because the transition from legal pass to botched technique resulting in injury happened in a split second.

This sort of thing is why I place such a strong emphasis in my classes on control and safety. Jiu-jitsu is a contact art and accidents will happen, but it's possible to minimize the chances of serious injury with the proper approach to practice.


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## Steve (Jul 22, 2015)

Alright.  Found some more information from various websites to share.  The information seems consistent, but of course, I can't be 100% sure about how true any of it is, because it's all second hand.  It's gleaned from several sites.  I'm including a couple of links, but, if you are interested, I'm sure you can retrace my steps pretty easily using bing or google and the information below.

To summarize what I found:

The older kid was 19, named Wesley Marques.  The kid who was injured was 15 year old Gabriel Diniz.  SBNation provided these and a few other details.  It appears from the link above that the issue of waiving underage competitors into the adult divisions has been addressed, and the practice is now banned.  That said, I saw a reference to say that these were blue belts, which would explain why the request was made in the first place.  We're talking about kids who have at least some fundamental skills, and have been training for at least a year or two. 

This site offered some insight into the severity of the injury and the recovery 9 months afterward.


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## elder999 (Jul 22, 2015)

Steve said:


> I don't fault that referee one bit.  That technique is one I've seen countless times, and I've never seen it cause any injury to a person.e knee (which is a big one).
> .



Years, and years ago, my employers offered EMT training: in addition to being a nuclear plant operator, I was a plant EMT.

I enrolled in the training because I was refereeing tournaments, and had noted the lack of medically trained refs. I've been an advocate for medical training for referees (in many sports) for quite some time-since my own kids started participating, actually, and I was still...

This ref rolled that kid over. He shouldn't have done that. That's pretty much the end of discussion for me.


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## Steve (Jul 22, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Years, and years ago, my employers offered EMT training: in addition to being a nuclear plant operator, I was a plant EMT.
> 
> I enrolled in the training because I was refereeing tournaments, and had noted the lack of medically trained refs. I've been an advocate for medical training for referees (in many sports) for quite some time-since my own kids started participating, actually, and I was still...
> 
> This ref rolled that kid over. He shouldn't have done that. That's pretty much the end of discussion for me.


I don't know.  I'm not a medical professional.  You're probably right about what happened after the injury.  However, I stand by my assessment of what happened before the injury.


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## elder999 (Jul 22, 2015)

Steve said:


> I don't know.  I'm not a medical professional.  You're probably right about what happened after the injury.  However, I stand by my assessment of what happened before the injury.



I'm not a medical "professional" either, but it's pretty basic-the kid should have been evaluated (asked questions and to perform), and then collared and boarded for transport. Odds are good (having no knowledge of the state of emergency response in Brazil) that he was collared and boarded for transport, but it might have been too late, _because the ref turned him over._


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## Steve (Jul 22, 2015)

yeah, that sucks, and I don't doubt you're right. 

I don't know whether the referees at our local tournament have any medical training.  I certainly don't.  But we do have three medical professionals on site, standing by for injuries.  I don't know for sure, but I think one is an EMT and the other two are RNs.  They are also jits practitioners, so they're pretty familiar with the types of injuries that could occur.


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## elder999 (Jul 22, 2015)

Steve said:


> yeah, that sucks, and I don't doubt you're right.
> 
> I don't know whether the referees at our local tournament have any medical training.  I certainly don't.  But we do have three medical professionals on site, standing by for injuries.  I don't know for sure, but I think one is an EMT and the other two are RNs.  They are also jits practitioners, so they're pretty familiar with the types of injuries that could occur.



Again, because I'm advocating medical training for refs, at a minimum all referees should receive regular medical briefings from the professionals on site as to what they should *and shouldn't* be doing under certain circumstances where the possibility of injury is higher-like this one. 

I mean, he knew to stop things-it's most likely under those circumstances that the injury wasn't a broken ankle, and there's a protocol for cervical injuries that can mean the difference between six months of rehab and a lifetime in a wheelchair.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 22, 2015)

I have to agree Elder999. 

Steve,
It is good that they have addressed the issue of underage competitors competing against adults.  While that cannot undue what happened it is a good start to making sure that things are on an even playing field for future athletes.


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## jks9199 (Jul 22, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Years, and years ago, my employers offered EMT training: in addition to being a nuclear plant operator, I was a plant EMT.
> 
> I enrolled in the training because I was refereeing tournaments, and had noted the lack of medically trained refs. I've been an advocate for medical training for referees (in many sports) for quite some time-since my own kids started participating, actually, and I was still...
> 
> This ref rolled that kid over. He shouldn't have done that. That's pretty much the end of discussion for me.


Not sure that I completely agree that he shouldn't have rolled the kid. He had to do something to ensure an airway and to assess.  But since it was clear that a spinal injury was possible, he should have been rolled in a way to protect the spine rather than simply flipped. And if EMTs or other equivalently trained personnel were available,  they should have been the ones to do it.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## elder999 (Jul 22, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Not sure that I completely agree that he shouldn't have rolled the kid. He had to do something to ensure an airway and to assess.  But since it was clear that a spinal injury was possible, he should have been rolled in a way to protect the spine rather than simply flipped. And if EMTs or other equivalently trained personnel were available,  they should have been the ones to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



Nah-there's rolling him over, and then there's what the ref did. One would be correct, in the "first do no harm" kind of way, and the other would be the way he did it, in the "_here's what you *don't* do_" kind of way.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 22, 2015)

elder999 said:


> I'm not a medical "professional" either, but it's pretty basic-the kid should have been evaluated (asked questions and to perform), and then collared and boarded for transport. Odds are good (having no knowledge of the state of emergency response in Brazil) that he was collared and boarded for transport, but it might have been too late, _because the ref turned him over._



I think I qualify as a professional...

It's pretty widely accepted among the medical community that there is no real benefit to collars and boards. We do them because people expect it to be done. And protocols are changing to do away with them in most cases. In a few years, it will be very rare to see someone collared and boarded. 

The only benefit to boarding someone is that it makes it easier to move them. 

Do a literature search for cases of boney spinal injury without neurological deficits that later developed cord injury. 

It won't take you long at all to read every single case history. 

If the impact didn't damage the cord, it is extremely unlikely that rolling him over did.

I can provide a more detailed answer, if people are interested, when I'm not on my phone. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 23, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think I qualify as a professional...
> 
> It's pretty widely accepted among the medical community that there is no real benefit to collars and boards. We do them because people expect it to be done. And protocols are changing to do away with them in most cases. In a few years, it will be very rare to see someone collared and boarded.
> 
> ...


Interesting! I'd love to hear more details on current best practices.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 23, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Interesting! I'd love to hear more details on current best practices.



The short version is: they don't really do diddly.

C Collars and backboards do not keep the spine in a neutral position. It ain't straight...

Here's a few artiicles:

Prehospital Spinal Immobilization EMSWorld.com

Why EMS Should Limit the Use of Rigid Cervical Collars - Journal of Emergency Medical Services

Research Suggests Time for Change in Prehospital Spinal Immobilization - Journal of Emergency Medical Services

Ditch the Spine Board

http://www.acphd.org/media/311913/santa cruz- new thinking about spine injures.pdf

The only real reasons collars and boards are still being routinely used is cultural inertia ("that's how we've always done it!") and fear of lawsuits (since the general public "knows" this should be done).


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## elder999 (Jul 23, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Th
> The only real reasons collars and boards are still being routinely used is cultural inertia ("that's how we've always done it!") and fear of lawsuits (since the general public "knows" this should be done).



Thanks, man.

Hell, when I was an EMT, we were still  using MAST trousers....


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## Zero (Jul 27, 2015)

elder999 said:


> I'm not a medical "professional" either, but it's pretty basic-the kid should have been evaluated (asked questions and to perform), and then collared and boarded for transport. Odds are good (having no knowledge of the state of emergency response in Brazil) that he was collared and boarded for transport, but it might have been too late, _because the ref turned him over._


Look, I totally agree with you here Elder!!  No way anyone like that should be rolled/moved, and absolutely any ref in a physical competition environment, from rugby to contact fighting/wrestling, should know not to roll in that scenario.  You can have a feather/hairline break or be on the cusp of this and by moving un-stabilised you complete the fracture and actually complete on the paralysis.

Am not a medical professional either but did three years as a volunteer fire fighter and first thing we were trained on coming across potential neck injuries was not to move until they have been fully assessed and/or braced.   When faced with a bad car accident with potential inflammables, it is always an issue of having the time to assess and how appropriately and safely to move and stabilise the victim versus getting the victim and yourself of out of the vehicle.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 27, 2015)

Zero said:


> Look, I totally agree with you here Elder!!  No way anyone like that should be rolled/moved, and absolutely any ref in a physical competition environment, from rugby to contact fighting/wrestling, should know not to roll in that scenario.  You can have a feather/hairline break or be on the cusp of this and by moving un-stabilised you complete the fracture and actually complete on the paralysis.



This is not really true, but if you didn't bother to read the explanation and links above the first time, there's no real sense in going through it all again.


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## Steve (Jul 27, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is not really true, but if you didn't bother to read the explanation and links above the first time, there's no real sense in going through it all again.


Happens all the time, and a good reminder that just because we learned something once doesn't mean that it's really true.  Particularly in the sciences.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 27, 2015)

Steve said:


> Happens all the time, and a good reminder that just because we learned something once doesn't mean that it's really true.  Particularly in the sciences.



Staying current isn't easy. It's a rare day when I'm not reading or viewing something to stay current.


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## Zero (Jul 28, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> *This is not really true*, but if you didn't bother to read the explanation and links above the first time, there's no real sense in going through it all again.


Hey, I read through on the freeing of airways and totally agree with that, if it is done right and appropriately - if there is the risk of such.
Gotta admit I have not had the time to chew through all your links on the neck-board and brace collar "myths" (hmmm), it's a mix of spending some time on MT and having a real (not virtual life) and making money to pay bills...but I will go over those links, as they look like very good reading, so thanks for those!
Again I am no Doc but can totally understand the thoughts as to doing away with spinal boards - for the curvature of the spine, for sure...Not so sure, in my ignorant position, as to losing the neck collar though. I still come from it is better to brace before any movement so to prevent further damage, I don't understand how that no longer applies??...but let me read through your links...

Also not overly keen on your use of "that is really not *true*".  I do have a science background and use my geology (in a limited sense) on a lot of the projects I do.  In my own short time I have seen scientific "truths" disproven or replaced, plate tectonics for a start.
The same also applies to the fields of medicine and trauma treatment, plenty "old school" medical approaches been thrown in the bin, some even looked at in horror now, whose to say there won't be an informed "flip" on these current views as to collars?


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 28, 2015)

Think of it this way. If I stab you, you've got a problem. But if I just put the knife against your skin, it's no big deal. 

That doesn't mean that it's not good to be cautious. It just means that the panic stricken cries of "DON'T MOVE!!!!!" are not really necessary.


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## Zero (Jul 29, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Think of it this way. If I stab you, you've got a problem. But if I just put the knife against your skin, it's no big deal.
> 
> That doesn't mean that it's not good to be cautious. It just means that the panic stricken cries of "DON'T MOVE!!!!!" are not really necessary.



I've read through those links now, thanks, although I think I need to do a lot more reading on this.

I see soft-collars are not argued against for the same reasoning as to rigid collars.

In addition, a lot of this "new" approach is based on the ability to be able to effectively assess the victim.  The statement in paper/link #2, a victim "not requiring imaging does not require immobilisation" is not exactly helpful.

Again I am no doctor or medical professional and it was few years back now when I was a fireman but a lot of our work was attending as first responder to car crashes on coastal roads.  There is not always the ability or luxury to wait for ambulance crew on these calls.  As a fireman I was of course given on-going medical training but nothing to the level of an ambulance crew or other forms of EMS. I can confidently say, no one in my brigade had the ability to make those kind of assessments regarding spinal injuries or complex trauma.  If we could not wait for the ambulance and the victim was unconscious or otherwise could not communicate and there looked to be the risk of spinal damage, we braced with collars, on the "this is better than the alternative" approach.  There were limited opportunities to be even able to have the space to use a board so this didn't really apply, just the collar.  I cannot see how this position can change, unless fireman are now given additional extensive first aid/EMS training, which I do not think they are.

I totally understand and appreciate your comments on this.  It is also logical to see how the boards or even more so, any form of collar, can adequately protect against all angles of movement.  But not sure if this applies as a universal approach or for non-EMS not able to make these kind of assessments...don't you think?


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2016)

Anyone ever hear what happened to these kids?  I couldn't find any updates online.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 6, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> However, freak accidents like that is part of the reason I stopped competing.



Why? From the sound of it and from what I have seen you know a lot and do well.


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## MAfreak (Apr 7, 2016)

the disturbing vids in this thread brought me here:




i'm wondering if no one tells the kids before that slamming is illegal. and some of these refs could have been intervening earlier instead of just wait and watch the predictable, and be it just by shouting "don't slam".


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> the disturbing vids in this thread brought me here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


some of those were slams and others weren't.   I hate to see those kids ones, and the One at about 3:00 in was cringe worthy.


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2016)

BJJ Ref Spot: A Legal Takedown vs an Illegal Slam

Pretty good explanation of a slam when taking an opponent down.

Just thinking more about this, the entire discussion regarding slamming is a red herring.  What this discussion should have focused on is the danger to the neck from rolling directly back.  Found an interesting backward roll drill from the double under pass that was attempted in the OP.   The instructor emphasizes how important it is to roll over the shoulder.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 18, 2016)

elder999 said:


> Years, and years ago, my employers offered EMT training: in addition to being a nuclear plant operator, I was a plant EMT.
> 
> I enrolled in the training because I was refereeing tournaments, and had noted the lack of medically trained refs. I've been an advocate for medical training for referees (in many sports) for quite some time-since my own kids started participating, actually, and I was still...
> 
> This ref rolled that kid over. He shouldn't have done that. That's pretty much the end of discussion for me.


I've actually been contemplating something like that as a requirement for black belt promotion, or at least for instructor certification. Not just basic First Aid (though that's a start), but something more comprehensive, like Emergency Responder training.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 18, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I've actually been contemplating something like that as a requirement for black belt promotion, or at least for instructor certification. Not just basic First Aid (though that's a start), but something more comprehensive, like Emergency Responder training.



I wouldn't recommend anything beyond basic first aid/first responder/cpr type training. Unless this is what you actually _*do*_, you are not going to spend the time and money it takes to stay current with changes in emergency medicine. And since you're not going to have the equipment to do anything other than the most basic care, there's no point in training beyond that level.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 18, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I wouldn't recommend anything beyond basic first aid/first responder/cpr type training. Unless this is what you actually _*do*_, you are not going to spend the time and money it takes to stay current with changes in emergency medicine. And since you're not going to have the equipment to do anything other than the most basic care, there's no point in training beyond that level.


The first responder (I think Red Cross calls it Emergency Responder) is what I'm referring to. The basic first aid tends to stop at what you could read on a quick reference guide. What I'm actually thinking is that I'll require first aid/CPR certification for black belt, and something more for Instructor certification, or maybe for Senior Instructor. In part, I like the idea that it takes a bit of time and effort, and requires the instructor focus on learning healing a bit, rather than just destruction.


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## Steve (Apr 18, 2016)

More people who know cpr is a great thing.   Rather than tying it to a rank or making it compulsory, why not invite instructors into the school and replace an aikido Seminar with cpr certification?    Make it an option for all your students.  I bet you'd have a good turnout.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> More people who know cpr is a great thing.   Rather than tying it to a rank or making it compulsory, why not invite instructors into the school and replace an aikido Seminar with cpr certification?    Make it an option for all your students.  I bet you'd have a good turnout.



I'd consider this a far better idea than linking MA rank to non-MA skills.


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## jks9199 (Apr 19, 2016)

I'd agree with giving careful thought to what training you require outside of your art.  Time and money...  

That said, there are sports oriented first aid classes available.  They might seem more reasonable for students. Especially if you make a current certificate a requirement for each advancement beyond the first black belt. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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