# I'm Angry!!!



## chungmoowarrior (Feb 14, 2002)

:soapbox: 

I've read some posts on Chung Moo Doe. How can any of you, as martial artists, bash such a fine art? Our art is one of the deadliest taught in the world. Tournaments won't let us in because they are afraid of what we can do! People in other systems are just jealous of the fine physical and mental accomplishments we have made through Chung Moo Doe. I ask that you all show respect to one of the world's **TRUE** martial arts.


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## Cthulhu (Feb 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *:soapbox:
> 
> I've read some posts on Chung Moo Doe. How can any of you, as martial artists, bash such a fine art? Our art is one of the deadliest taught in the world. Tournaments won't let us in because they are afraid of what we can do! People in other systems are just jealous of the fine physical and mental accomplishments we have made through Chung Moo Doe. I ask that you all show respect to one of the world's **TRUE** martial arts. *



OMFG.  The only system I know of that was denied access to any tournament was the Dog Brothers.  They even have the letter from the former organizers of the UFC basically stating that they were simply too rough to be admitted to the UFC.

CMD/Q students aren't allowed into tournaments because their instructors won't let them enter.  When the students ask the instructors why, then they are told the BS 'because we're too deadly blah blah blah'.  In fact, the reason they don't want their students to join is because they're afraid the student will get pounded, question the system, and seek instruction elsewhere, taking valuable money out of CMD/Q's pockets.

There is another reason why CMD/Q students may not be allowed into tournaments: some may not be able to demonstrate the level of control needed.  *ANY* system is deadly in a tournament if the fighter doesn't exhibit control or follow the rules.

I will not show respect to CMD/Q as 'one of the world's true martial arts' because it is NOT a true martial art.  It is a creation of the criminal 'Iron' Kim, used to extort money from many many unfortunate individuals who never knew better.

Cthulhu


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## Kirk (Feb 14, 2002)

Instead of demanding respect for your art, why not take this
opportunity to educate us if we're so wrong about your art?
Instead of going "we're so deadly, we can't fight"   I'm sorry,
but that's just the worst excuse in the world.    Let's DISCUSS
this rationally.  You have GOT to realize that there's LOADS of
information that is negative on the web about your style.  Lots
and lots of accusations of CMD being a cult.  A lot of legitimate
periodicals out there, doing the same thing.  So you have a
unique opportunity here ... teach us, in a rational manner.

I'd like to address one statement you made:



> Chung Moo training is the cream of the crop. Nobody has dared challenge our schools, for they know that they will be beaten. Yes, it is expensive, but we get 3 times what we would get at any other art.



Given that there's a finite number of places to strike, and a 
finite number of ways that the body can move ... how is it
that you can say that your art is 3 times that of any other art?
Care to discuss, or are you just going to call me "ignorant" and
"uneducated" again?  If you're any kind of man, any kind of
warrior .. you'll discuss this, in a civilized manner ... ya never
know, you might even gain some members to your art.  I 
challenge you, here and now ... discuss it with us all, until we're
enlightened.


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## fist of fury (Feb 14, 2002)

Yes please enlighten us I know very little about your art. However the statement that you cannot enter tournaments because they fear what you can do seems like an weak excuse.
there's only one art thats too deadly for competition and I posted a video clip in the sports and entertainment board


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## chungmoowarrior (Feb 14, 2002)

I'm not allowed to go over specifics of our training. I will, however, give you an insight to my training. Before I started, I was overwieght, and couldn't do excercise without taking a break. 3 years later, I'm 80 lbs lighter, i'm faster, and I've become a skilled fighter. My mental focus is much clearer.

Our curriculum encompasses a broad wealth of knowledge. We learn techniques from tae kwon doe, kung fu, iado, and several other arts. We emphasize self defense scenarios commonly encountered on the streets. We also learn how to do flips, kickups, and other stunts which will help us win or get out of a fight.


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## Kirk (Feb 14, 2002)

> I'm not allowed to go over specifics of our training. I will, however, give you an insight to my training.



If you can't talk about the specifics, then the only way you can
get new members is if they walk in off the streets and don't
ask any questions?  That must make things difficult.  One of the
things that got me to decide on which art to train in was by 
watching the training, and talking with other artists.



> Before I started, I was overwieght, and couldn't do excercise without taking a break. 3 years later, I'm 80 lbs lighter, i'm faster, and I've become a skilled fighter. My mental focus is much clearer.



A gym can do the same thing, can't it?  Do you deny that other
arts can make one a skilled fighter?  There's a LOT of styles
out there that are a mix of several styles .. what makes yours
different?  Why is it superb to others?


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## Icepick (Feb 14, 2002)

"We also learn how to do flips, kickups, and other stunts which will help us win or get out of a fight."

Or get a part in a movie...

Congratulations on your weight loss, though.  It's cool that you're happy with your art, but how do you know you're a skilled fighter if you're not fighting anyone?


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## Cthulhu (Feb 14, 2002)

I've also got another question for you, chungmoo...

According to your profile, you just got your 2nd dan, after only three years of training.  Many systems won't give a shodan until at least three years of training, much less a 2nd dan.  In fact, in my system, getting a black belt in five years is considered very fast.

Unless you're not allowed to divulge this, how often do you train a week and how much does CMD charge you?

Cthulhu


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## chungmoowarrior (Feb 14, 2002)

I train everyday, except for Sunday, when the school is closed. It's my constant attendance which got me so far. Most have to wait 4 years for second dan.  Our belt system is somewhat different than other systems. We don't go through colors. We start with white, and as we progress, the ends get dyed black, and continues being dyed until it is completely black. As for pricing, that's something that only our instructor is allowed to divulge. For further information, you can see my school's website at www.chungmoodoe.com.


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## fist of fury (Feb 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *I'm not allowed to go over specifics of our training
> . *


Sounds Like a cult to me.


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## Despairbear (Feb 14, 2002)

There seems to be an awfull lot you are not "allowed" to talk about, does that not strike you as odd?






Despair Bear


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## Cthulhu (Feb 14, 2002)

*Every* reputable martial arts school I've ever visited has been more than willing to discuss any fees, as well as to explain their training methods.  Any school that doesn't do this is obviously hiding something...and it damn sure isn't "the world's deadliest martial art".

You can't even tell us how much the monthly fees are?  How much belt tests cost?  These questions would always be answered by literally any other martial arts school.

Cthulhu


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## chungmoowarrior (Feb 14, 2002)

Well I'm sorry if my school isn't every other martial arts school. So we do things differently. Maybe it's a waste of time to try to discuss things with you all. You all already have your preconcieved notions, and nothing I say will change that, will it? You've made your conclusions before even talking to me. I really don't think that's fair.


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## fist of fury (Feb 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *Well I'm sorry if my school isn't every other martial arts school. So we do things differently. Maybe it's a waste of time to try to discuss things with you all. You all already have your preconcieved notions, and nothing I say will change that, will it? You've made your conclusions before even talking to me. I really don't think that's fair. *


No I'm willing to hear you out. the only thing I know about it is what info I've found through research. So what can you discuss with us?


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## Kirk (Feb 14, 2002)

> You all already have your preconcieved notions, and nothing I say will change that, will it?




My mind is an open book.  When you stop listening, you stop
learning.  I'm new to M.A. (6 months now) ... I'd like to hear
more.  I must admit though, it does seem like you can't tell me
anything about.  I don't understand it, how did YOU get into
it, without knowing about it?  I hope that doesn't sound harsh,
I'm legitimitely curious.  Trust me.


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## Cthulhu (Feb 14, 2002)

Actually, we are trying to talk to you.  Unfortunately, you can only respond with "I'm not allowed to talk about that".

Makes for somewhat stilted conversation.

Cthulhu


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## Icepick (Feb 14, 2002)

CMW -

I don't know anything about your art or school.  As a rule though, the argument that you are too deadly to compete reeks of BS.  

If you are truly interested in becoming a good fighter, I highly recommend that you try your techniques out against a boxer, wrestler or judoka.  I'm sure someone in your area is willing to agree to some rules that will satisfy both of you.  If you cannot perform your techniques against one of these guys, with a similar amount of training experience, then you are training in fantasy-land.  If you hold your own, then ignore what others say, your training is working.

IP


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## donald (Feb 14, 2002)

I for one never heard of this system, or Mr.Kim. The web site seemed to offer at least some info on the training etc.. What is it that so many find disagreeable about this system? Why was Mr.Kim refered to as a criminal? The CMD web site claims a laundry list of accomplishments for Mr.Kim. Are these substantiated by anyone outside of the CMD hierarchy? I would be very interested to hear from an informed individual, not heresay.
Salute in Christ,
Donald:asian:


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## deadhand31 (Feb 14, 2002)

ok, i don't like to be negative, but i can't stay quiet on this one.... if you look in the Humor forum, there's a chart that lists several translations, one of them being:

My art is too deadly to demonstrate = Everybody who's tried using it on the street has been killed. 

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. 

With all the research I've done on it, Chung Moo Doe does not seem to be a legitimate martial art. I've sent info requests to the Kukkiwon, and they have told me that the "All Asia Championship" which Kim claimed to have won never existed.

However, I firmly believe that you will always get out of martial arts what you put into them. If you're a good fighter, I'm sure that there are other fighters who'll be glad to fight you, and you'll come out on top. If not, I advise you to find another school. 

In the words of Aerosmith: "Talk is cheap, shut up and dance"


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 14, 2002)

You mentioned dropping weight my brother and i have been training 10 months now, before he started he weighed 250 pounds, he down to around 210 and has the potential to drop himself under 200 for the first time since he was in highschool (he was athletic in HS but a knee injury forced him to stop being active for over a year, 5 surgerys later his knee is pretty much ok.) all i know is that everyone here discredits CMD. I take american kenpo, A VERY DEADLY ART, i know this and many other here know this, and i only have my purple belt. I can enter into tournaments, Theres open tournaments, How do you know that "youre too dangerous to enter a tournament" when im willing to bet you have never even tried to enter, find one and then try to enter, see what the officials at the tournament say, odds are theyll let you right in to the black belt divison if you can show a certificate, they dont care what art you study, its an open tournament. Just be careful those open tourneys are brutal.


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## Blindside (Feb 14, 2002)

Come on guys, don't you recognize a troll when you see one.

Just ignore it, there is NO WAY  this guy could be serious.

Lamont


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 14, 2002)

After what i heard from others about the CMD people it wouldnt shock me if he is serious.


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## fist of fury (Feb 14, 2002)

If he is a troll then ignore him, but if he isn't he shouldn't be afraid to reveal any "secrets" since the anonynomity of the internet should keep him from getting in trouble with his leaders.  I want to see if he's able to think for himself or if his CMD organization tells him what to think.


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## fist of fury (Feb 14, 2002)

Guess he was a troll.


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## superdave (Feb 14, 2002)

:wah: STOP IT YOU GUYS! IRON KIM IS THE GREATEST!!!!:wah:  I guess they should change the name from chung moo do to chump more dough


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 14, 2002)

Now I've said in other disscussions where this"deadly art" and Mr. Kim are mentioned that I must have missed this part of Martial history .I have been previledged to study in many places and under more than a few knowledgeable people, they all seemed to have missed the boat on this subject also. Even the "closed""family" schools that I know of never have mentioned such a deadly art.So please enlighten a student of the arts, one who is open to learning about your art.
If you cant say more than " I cant say" or "I can't talk about it " please get off the pot and flush. 
Get you instructor or his to enlighten us the "unworthy " to the greater hights of your art.
You see I am willing to learn. I have waited months to enter schools that only opened their doors once a year to admit new students.so tell me more .
Hell my school isnt hard to find.It is listed on the url by my name.come show me your art so I can see, and not only hear about it.
Shadow:


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## fist of fury (Feb 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by superdave _
> *:wah: STOP IT YOU GUYS! IRON KIM IS THE GREATEST!!!!:wah:  I guess they should change the name from chung moo do to chump more dough *


ROFLMAO!!!


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## warder (Feb 14, 2002)

Deadly Art?  Too Deadly to fight in a tournament? That is the most idiotic thing i ever heard. Im just glad this guy wrote in because this is the longest ive seen most of you guyse without bashing TKD.  He has only proven most of the horror stories weve heard about cmd to be true. he sounds like a cia operative who cant divulge his secrets without killing you afterwords.


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## fist of fury (Feb 14, 2002)

come out,come out where ever you are troll....
is this part of your secrets or just more anti CMD propaganda
http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/chung/chung.asp


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## fist of fury (Feb 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by warder _
> *. Im just glad this guy wrote in because this is the longest ive seen most of you guyse without bashing TKD. *


Damn we've been negelcting our duties


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## chungmoowarrior (Feb 14, 2002)

:soapbox: 
Sorry that I can't stay in front of a computer 24/7, but I DO have a life, and I DO have to train, you know. Chung Moo Doe requires a great deal of mental concentration, and if I was to fight someone without that same level of concentration, they can be hurt seriously. No, I don't believe that Chung Su Nim Kim can walk on water, fall 8 stories, etc. Like I said, those were things that little kids made up. And I'm sorry that I have to follow the rules that my school set up for me. If you honestly want to know so badly, you have the address of my school. My instructor welcomes any serious questions from fellow martial artists. Just don't call and start to bash him, he will get angry.


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## Rob_Broad (Feb 14, 2002)

I went to the website provided by Chung Moo.  I looked at the costs, what a joke $3500 a year.  I hope they atleast give you a kiss good-night before they screw you.

People tried to ask questions about the art and an opportunity was given for us unworthy ones to be corrected, but rthe party line response I can't answer that was too much.

It is brown, and smells like fecal matter then it's probably sh!t.


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## Kirk (Feb 14, 2002)

I'm gonna hafta agree with Rob on that one.  If you can't stand
up and give us any reply other than "I can't say", then why 
bother posting here?  You've pretty much in YOUR words 
convinced me that it's a cult.


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## vincefuess (Feb 14, 2002)

Dude.  Are you married?  What do you do for a living?  Do you do anything for your community- or is all your energy, money, and attention devoted to your training?  If so- why? What is your ultimate goal in life? To serve Master Kim?  What about your parents?  Does anything mean anything to you outside of Chung Moo Whatever?

ASK YOURSELF THESE QUESTIONS.  PLEASE.


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## warder (Feb 14, 2002)

3500 a year!!!!! I train at 3 different schools, 3 different schools, and i barely pay half that a year. 
is cmd tax exempt?  are you a certified religon? can your "master" perform marriges in your dojo? 
ps--- DONT DRINK ANY COOL-AID- its probably poison


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## vincefuess (Feb 14, 2002)

Reality can be a ***** to wake up to.  It can be lethal.  It is the cause of 99% of suicides.  If you are WAY brainwashed- it may be the only solution you see.

Jumping off buildings and such.


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## Kirk (Feb 14, 2002)

Here's an interesting post on another forum:

http://martial-arts-network.com/forum/messages/3416.htm


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## fist of fury (Feb 14, 2002)

Yeah it is kind of a pointless discussion. I'm right but I can't tell you why, but you can talk to my superior. Still sounds like a cult to me.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 14, 2002)

Chungmoowarrior
I know this may sound stupid and possibly disloyal but why not sneek away from your instructor for a couple of days and visit a diffrent school. Or even really be a rebal and slyly attend a tournament, buy a diffrent uniform and enter under a false name(so your instructor will not see your name in the win colum).
I'm sure most of the people on this forum would welcome you to their trainning areas Hell some might even be brave enough to do some sparring with you(all in friendship,and with the idea of learning).You might have to tone down your response time and back off from your more deadly techniques to save embarrassing them but I am sure you have the ability to do so.  
Shadow 

Not to sound dumb but how come i havn't seen the Ronin in on this


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## vincefuess (Feb 14, 2002)

Just knowing this stuff happened to ONE person makes want to shove your head up your, well you know!!

(My respect for this forum prevents me from speaking my mind)

I don't know.  Maybe you deserve the fate that awaits you.  Just remember- what comes around goes around, and whatever harm you do another is gonna come back to you, perhaps tenfold.

If this path seems right to you, then pursue it- but if it comes to a point where you have to infringe upon another persons well being, just remember there may may be a real ugly sucker with a chip on his shoulder ready to intercept you- who will turn the table faster than you can say "help mommy".

You follow your own path, for your responsibiilty goes as far as your blood, but only that far.  If you are asked or encouraged to hurt another person- just remember you are liable for whatever hell comes your way.  Where will Kim be then?

Ask yourself these questions, and answer them honestly for your own sake.

I have seen this stuff happen, and I have seen people who wondered what the heck happened to them, when it is too late.

Keep your head, bubba.  Ask questions.  Expect answers.  Don't be afraid to dial 911- there is always another way.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 14, 2002)

placeing all of my other statements aside.
 I agree 100 % with what Vincefuess just said.
Belive in yourslef  enjoy what you do but never be afraid to question what others would have you do and never be afraid to ask for help
Shadow


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## vincefuess (Feb 14, 2002)

This whole discussion prompted me to make a few phone calls to my nephew and some of the friends we shared- especially our friend whom I discussed in earlier posts who was associated with Chung Moo Quan. 

It is rumoured by more than one person that he is dead.  I do not know if it is topically related or not, he was a casual acquaintance and I have no reliable contacts to confirm if in fact it is true, much less how it happened.  He was my nephew's age, roughly 31 years old now.

The guy was a heavy partyer, and loved to fight (at least back then) so maybe his death is a no-brainer.  It just seems weird to me right now, but then again I have not inquired of him in over ten years.  Supposedly, it happened about five years ago.

Very likely no relation to the topic but it hit me like a small brick- just thought I would share it.  There may be more to the story.


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## Kirk (Feb 14, 2002)

http://martial-arts-network.com/forum/messages/5355.htm


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## vincefuess (Feb 14, 2002)

Where the heck are you finding this stuff?


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## Cthulhu (Feb 14, 2002)

Thanks for posting that link I had in the 'Horror Stories' forum, fist of fury...I was too lazy to do it myself 

Thanks for the other links, guys.  

The thing is, this is just the tip of the iceberg.  Do a search in Google Groups and you'll find a lot more stuff.  (If you're lucky, you may run across some of the incredibly arrogant posts I made in my younger days.  Of course, you've gotta know my real name )

Cthulhu


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## Chiduce (Feb 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *:soapbox:
> Sorry that I can't stay in front of a computer 24/7, but I DO have a life, and I DO have to train, you know. Chung Moo Doe requires a great deal of mental concentration, and if I was to fight someone without that same level of concentration, they can be hurt seriously. No, I don't believe that Chung Su Nim Kim can walk on water, fall 8 stories, etc. Like I said, those were things that little kids made up. And I'm sorry that I have to follow the rules that my school set up for me. If you honestly want to know so badly, you have the address of my school. My instructor welcomes any serious questions from fellow martial artists. Just don't call and start to bash him, he will get angry. *


 I checked out your web site and the modified single whip training is ok for training. The serving up tea motion is ok also for training! Please explain how these 2 motion sets can be adjusted for street fighting a downward knife attack! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Cthulhu (Feb 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *:soapbox:
> Sorry that I can't stay in front of a computer 24/7, but I DO have a life, and I DO have to train, you know. Chung Moo Doe requires a great deal of mental concentration, and if I was to fight someone without that same level of concentration, they can be hurt seriously. No, I don't believe that Chung Su Nim Kim can walk on water, fall 8 stories, etc. Like I said, those were things that little kids made up. And I'm sorry that I have to follow the rules that my school set up for me. If you honestly want to know so badly, you have the address of my school. My instructor welcomes any serious questions from fellow martial artists. Just don't call and start to bash him, he will get angry. *



No, little kids most certainly did not make those stories up, since many of the instructors were also preaching them (unless you're saying your instructors are little kids).

I forgot to mention one claim...my favorite one:  that Bruce Lee was killed by someone in the CMD organization for revealing CMD/Q secrets.

As far as not fighting someone with your 'same level of concentration'...if CMD gives you the skills you claim, you should be able to control your techniques, regardless of who you are fighting.  I can spar anybody, from white belt on up, and not worry about losing my control and accidentally killing somebody.  I can also adjust my sparring level to that of my partner.  That's called basic control.  If you don't have that, you don't get a green belt in my system, much less, black.

Cthulhu


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## fist of fury (Feb 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Thanks for posting that link I had in the 'Horror Stories' forum, fist of fury...I was too lazy to do it myself
> 
> )
> ...


Actually I stole that from Kirk I didn't know you posted it there.


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## fist of fury (Feb 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *
> 
> I forgot to mention one claim...my favorite one:  that Bruce Lee was killed by someone in the CMD organization for revealing CMD/Q secrets.
> ...



Bwahahahahahaha!! that was a good one I can't stop laughing.


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## vincefuess (Feb 15, 2002)

Best be careful.  You saw his post.  Kim will get angry.  He might come throw a flying side kick off your roof.  That is some spooky stuff.  I just THOUGHT a guy jumped off my roof once, and I was paralyzed with fear for a week.


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## fist of fury (Feb 15, 2002)

Thats a scary thought I won't be able to sleep all weekend.


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## donald (Feb 15, 2002)

Fellow Posters,
I think the bashing of this person has far exceeded acceptable limitations. I thought this was supposed to be a place of 
"friendly discussion"? I don't see any real instance of this person attacking anyone, but man the stomping that many of you have inflicted! You may believe the system he is in is "suspect", but why the unkindness? The desire of cmwarrior to honor his word, as far as the not revealing info thing goes. Should be admired, not ridiculed... I posted a few questions regarding the validity of Mr.Kim's claims, and the claims of his detractors on this forum. NO ONE HAS RESPONDED... If this is a cult, if Mr.Kim is a charlatan, if there is any substantiated proof of any of these claims? Please someone bring it to the light of day. I would have to think. That if any of these accusations are true. There is someone out there who can/would give a first hand accounting. WELL!!!???
Salute in Christ,
Donald:asian:


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## Rubber Ducky (Feb 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by donald _
> *...If this is a cult, if Mr.Kim is a charlatan, if there is any substantiated proof of any of these claims?*



Donald,  "Iron" Kim was convicted in court and Chung Moo Doe is a cult.  

There's plenty of proof in the public record.

Pierre


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 15, 2002)

ok, just my 2 cents here:

CMD is broadly regarded as a cult and/or ineffective system based on various perspectives.  

I've seen many references to various things.  Please post links, etc to back up claims.

chungmoowarrior has every right to be pissed over a feeling of being bashed.  While well intended, some of the comments are a bit harsh.  

Cthulhu has done extensive research on the issue of CMD. 

In discussing CMD, please post verifiable factual information.  "He-said" or "I saw it somewhere" is not really good enough.

Saying "It sucks"  why?  "cuz"  works for 10yr olds, not mature, adults.

I've been a tad busy the last few weeks and have'nt been as active as I'd like here.  I tend to agree with donald though...this ones gone a bit far.

please keep it friendly, and topical.  If you can back up what you are saying we can keep this one open...if it continues to look like a bash-a-thon, we're gonna have to lock it, and I prefer not to do that.  So, start putting up alot of factuals, k?

Thanks!
:asian: 

Kaith
-MT Admin-


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## Cthulhu (Feb 15, 2002)

Specific info on Kim's conviction:

http://www.ustreas.gov/irs/ci/articles/dockim99.htm 

Cthulhu


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Specific info on Kim's conviction:
> 
> http://www.ustreas.gov/irs/ci/articles/dockim99.htm
> ...




Dosent get much more black and white than that, No BS there, straight facts about convictions.


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## Kirk (Feb 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Donald_
> The desire of cmwarrior to honor his word, as far as the not revealing info thing goes. Should be admired, not ridiculed... I posted a few questions regarding the validity of Mr.Kim's claims, and the claims of his detractors on this forum. NO ONE HAS RESPONDED... If this is a cult, if Mr.Kim is a charlatan, if there is any substantiated proof of any of these claims? Please someone bring it to the light of day. I would have to think. That if any of these accusations are true. There is someone out there who can/would give a first hand accounting. WELL!!!???



I wonder if you'd say that same about the Branch Davidians?
How about Heaven's Gate?  Had someone been more outspoken
about these cults, and calling a spade a spade .. maybe some
lives could have been saved?  Even those that didn't die in the
Waco fire yet were members had have their lives dramatically
altered as a result of being members in a cult.  Should these
people been given the same respect as say, Catholics, 
Methodists, Southern Baptists?  Should they have been able
to go to a christian forum on the net and been welcomed there
to spread their views?   Cults are typically dangerous, and 
engage in brain washing.   Too often people lose their lives.
Should we have sat back and allow genocide, or child molestation
for fear of hurting someone's feelings?  Making them 
feel "bashed" ?  I'm all for what you say, Kaith, but I say there's
enough proof that CMD is not a martial art, and has no place
on this board, other than possibly revealing the truth about
what it is, in order to help those brainwashed by "Iron" Kim's
retoric.  

I know it's a much, much smaller scale, but should we have 
sat back and let the nazi's do as they pleased?  CMD followers
are in danger, and there's very little out there for this cult.  Maybe
collectively we can do our little bit as members of this forum to
stop just one person from falling into it?


Any CMD student, or wanna be student may just fall upon this
page and go, "why is there such a harshness about this art?".
Maybe it'll be just enough to encourage him/her to research
it further before they drop out of college, give their possessions
to a CMD school, get beaten down at school, and/or have thier
dog killed in attempt to bring them back.


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *
> 
> give their possessions
> ...




Dude If someone ever tried to kill my dog, I'd neuter him, Of course unless he has a gun or a decent weapon i think my dog would probably take him, trying to fight an 80 pound dog is not the easiest of things to do. Still id neuter any guy that tried to attack my dog, unless my dog did it first.


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## vincefuess (Feb 15, 2002)

Very well said indeed.  Your points were made with total conviction with no sense of malice.  I salute you.

The fact that these guys were sentenced to sixty months (5 years) for an essentially white collar crime means they have been back on the street for awhile now and have learned from their mistakes.  Learned how to pull off the con better, I mean.  Kim came here admittedly to become the richest man in the world, for nowhere but America could he do that, and his defense for not paying taxes was that the money wasn't spent wisely in his opinion.

We DID have a bit of fun at Chungmoowarriors expense, and we were wrong in that, even if the message we served up was honest in intention.  He is in it deep.  He is likely not alone.  Let's keep the message out there- even if it chaps their butts, it has to make them think.  One of the hardest things in the world to do is admit you made a mistake, especially when it is a big mistake.  Trust me, I know. I've made a bunch of 'em!

Like Kaith said, let's keep it factual and straightforward and not add to this guys misery.  For all we know, he is on the take.  Might be a predator himself, rather than a victim.  Ever think of that? (sorry CMW)

It's all here for everyone to see- whether or not they open their eyes is not our business.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 15, 2002)

Well said. 

1 of my points is basically, I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just saying show the proof.  Then, we can all make up our own minds, once the information is presented.

Thanks!:asian:


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## GouRonin (Feb 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *I've read some posts on Chung Moo Doe. How can any of you, as martial artists, bash such a fine art? Our art is one of the deadliest taught in the world. Tournaments won't let us in because they are afraid of what we can do! People in other systems are just jealous of the fine physical and mental accomplishments we have made through Chung Moo Doe. I ask that you all show respect to one of the world's **TRUE** martial arts. *



I believe you.

Wanna Randori?
:idea:


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## TLH3rdDan (Mar 1, 2002)

ok here ya go i dont normaly do this but here is an open challange to any and all CMD cult memebers to recieve a a$$ kicking... in the immortal words of The Rock lol.... "Just Bring It!" ive delt with little punk cultists before and a few more wont be a problem. so just let me know when you want to come find out how deadly you really are


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## Klondike93 (Mar 2, 2002)

So what ever happened to this guy?
You still out there learning Chung Moo Doe?

:asian: 

Chuck


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## vincefuess (Mar 2, 2002)

He's probably going thru the "Ten thousand groin kicks followed by being pitched off a building" cleansing process.

I kinda wish we hadn't kicked on him so hard, I really would have liked to hear what he had to say about the training and dojo etiquette.

You know, it's funny.  I always feel uncomfortable when I have a real "gung-ho" student- you know, the guys who seem as though they finally found their calling and their life's meaning.  It's a good thing, but it lays alot of responsibility upon you as the instructor to guide them properly, and sometimes that guidance means tempering their zeal a bit.  When someone takes every word you say as gospel, it tends to make ME very self-conscious and inhibits my ability to teach, for I find myself worrying about "what-if's".

How do some of you experienced teachers handle these kids? (I say kids, cuz they are usually teen or pre-teen, looking for answers to life's questions).  I am just a guy, like anyone else.  I have a skill that I can teach, that I hope can help someone as it helped me, but sometimes I see seeds growing that scare me.

I'm gonna post the main body of this post as a new thread, so those of you who wish to respond, please do so there.  This thread made me think of this, and it is realted, but I think this subject deserves a thread of its own.  This subject hits very close to home for me, and I would appreciate all of the constructive comments I can get.


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## thaiboxer (Mar 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> 
> *:soapbox:
> 
> I've read some posts on Chung Moo Doe. How can any of you, as martial artists, bash such a fine art? Our art is one of the deadliest taught in the world. Tournaments won't let us in because they are afraid of what we can do! People in other systems are just jealous of the fine physical and mental accomplishments we have made through Chung Moo Doe. I ask that you all show respect to one of the world's **TRUE** martial arts. *



typically said of a person who cant really fight. furthermore, if all chung moo doe is, is a culmination of martial arts, all "iron" kim has done is what bruce lee did before him, so hes no pioneer.
As for being the "deadliest", well no more deadly than anything else on the market, after all, there are only so many ways to hurt someone.


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## Zoran (Mar 4, 2002)

Here is another link if anyone is interested
http://www.rickross.com/reference/chung1.html

I'm from the Chicago area. My instructor and several others were the ones that had the media get involved with this cult. I've met quite a few ex-chung moo students. Their experiences always brought tears of hilarity or ones of deep saddness. The bottom line is this group takes advantage of a persons weakness. They suck out your funds, mind, and soul. When you have nothing left to offer, they discard your dried out husk in the gutter. The sad thing is there are still a few schools left out there. To all who may read this that may be involved in this system, please take the time to research this on your own. Don't take my word, I'm nobody to you.


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## thaiboxer (Mar 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *Here is another link if anyone is interested
> http://www.rickross.com/reference/chung1.html
> ...



i dont understand really, why wouldnt they just keep on taking your money if you joined? Are you referring to martial arts knowledge above? they suck all the knowledge they can from each individual then basically disgard you? could you please elaborate a little more on your comments. I have never heard of these guys before, nor do i really care, they sound like they are full of s$%t, as for the flying kicks, (thats all they flamin talked about on that link above - not yours by the way) when the hell are they useful in a real bar fight, when its all packed in and hard to move? no offence to those who can do them, they look good but impractical.
thanks


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## Nate_Hoopes (Mar 4, 2002)

He meant suck the life out of people, and their money, i havent been in martial arts long but most people have the concensus that chuch moo do was that biggest martial arts scam in history, as for high kick I agree not use in a bar fight, bu when you can easily do a jump spinning back kick it makes it relatively easy to throw that knee or wasit high basic round kick.


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## thaiboxer (Mar 4, 2002)

sorry zoran
ive read the link and that pretty much described in full what they are about. I must say some people are gullible. If i was being extensively mistreated and paying huge sums of money to learn something such as how to supposedly fight, i certainly wouldnt entertain it for long,
where i come from its up to the individual to put in the hard yards behind the scenes to get enough physical strength and endurance to continue in muay thai. We actually just do pur ecombination and technique work, and spar against each other every training session, and believe me an hour and bit of plain combos takes it out of you, plus then full contact sparring.
Our trainer charges us a meagre 45 australian dollars a month, so ten dollars a week for 2 lessons a week - 5 dollars each. Id happily pay him more if he wanted, he has even does extra at his home for free if the individual so wants too. Nope im lucky, thank god ive never even come across anything remotely similar to that crap.
And by golly im not learning some flying kick bull from roof top to roof top.
Outrageous claims as well, id like to see him in the ring with a lumpinee champion.


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## thaiboxer (Mar 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nate_Hoopes _
> 
> *He meant suck the life out of people, and their money, i havent been in martial arts long but most people have the concensus that chuch moo do was that biggest martial arts scam in history, as for high kick I agree not use in a bar fight, bu when you can easily do a jump spinning back kick it makes it relatively easy to throw that knee or wasit high basic round kick. *



sorry nate
but im of the opinion that (and this is just my opinion by the way, nothing against anyone, or being disrespectful) all that spinning kick stuff is just show, and not very useful in real life application. check out "www.muaythai.fi" and then the multimedia stuff there, a TKD guy is extremely lucky not to be hurt more in one mpeg fight show. Simplicity is the key i believe - hence i study what i do.
But yeah on the chung moo doe thing, its completely outrageous, i agree.


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## Dutch (Mar 4, 2002)

I think to sum it up. The style and "Iron Kim" suck. Who the hell is named "Kim" anyway? It's a girl's name.


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## thaiboxer (Mar 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dutch _
> 
> *I think to sum it up. The style and "Iron Kim" suck. Who the hell is named "Kim" anyway? It's a girl's name. *


 some guy from korea apparently, who is the asian champion


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## Zoran (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by thaiboxer _
> 
> *sorry zoran
> ive read the link and that pretty much described in full what they are about. I must say some people are gullible. If i was being extensively mistreated and paying huge sums of money to learn something such as how to supposedly fight, i certainly wouldnt entertain it for long.*



No problem thaiboxer. You must understand that many people, not all, who join the martial arts are people with low self confidence or self esteem. At some point they decided to try to do something about it. So they try the martial arts. It's many of these same people who are the most vulnerable. For some of us it's hard to understand. We may forget what it was like to be new or some where fighters already before joining a martial art. There are still people out there that see the martial arts as something mysterious. Ofcourse we know that all the martial arts is a lot of hard work, good intruction, and lots practice.


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## Dutch (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by thaiboxer _
> *some guy from korea apparently, who is the asian champion *



What is he champion of? Bilking students out of their money with a cheesy art and giving himself stripes on his belt for it?


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## thaiboxer (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dutch _
> 
> *
> 
> What is he champion of? Bilking students out of their money with a cheesy art and giving himself stripes on his belt for it? *



well he certainly is nothing less than an 8th dan in con artistry


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## thaiboxer (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *
> 
> No problem thaiboxer. You must understand that many people, not all, who join the martial arts are people with low self confidence or self esteem. At some point they decided to try to do something about it. So they try the martial arts. It's many of these same people who are the most vulnerable. For some of us it's hard to understand. We may forget what it was like to be new or some where fighters already before joining a martial art. There are still people out there that see the martial arts as something mysterious. Ofcourse we know that all the martial arts is a lot of hard work, good intruction, and lots practice. *



guess ive been fortunate enough to have lived life fairly tough growing up, so you tend to realize from an earlier age what life is all about, through your parents mistakes, and other family members and other people ultimately. I guess i was also lucky to have good parents who took the time to teach of the tyranny of this world to a certain degree.
And yeah thinking about it, low self esteem people would use it as a crutch, they would view life through a narrow tunnel and be oblivious to what is really happening, i agree totally.
anyhow have a good one zoran, catch you later


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## Kroy (Apr 13, 2003)

Nobody thought to ask Chungmoowarrior his age because he sounded rather immature. A young impressionable fella who's told that he's an almighty fighter, will tend to believe it. I think once he gets the snot kicked out of him in a street fight (which I hope he doesnt)  he'll change his tune (and his art)
 Hey Kid, if your here, dont be afraid to talk about it. Many of the folks in this forum have been training for many, many years and they can help alot.

P.S. $3500, come on think about it.


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## SteelShadow (Apr 13, 2003)

Ok im going to ask because as i read thru the post i didnt see anyone else ask..What is ying yang doe??And I mean no disrespect its just something ive never heard of .


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## Matt Stone (Apr 14, 2003)

Unfortunately, there are still several CMD schools in the Seattle area, as well as several Temple Kung Fu schools in the Tacoma/Seattle area.

Sad to say, but it's true...


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## Rob_Broad (Apr 14, 2003)

I see the cheesy temple Kung Fu commercials on late nite TV here and they make me laugh.


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## vincefuess (Apr 14, 2003)

That's a new one on me!  Is  this a Chinese version of John C. Kim's madness?


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## Matt Stone (Apr 14, 2003)

I am sure you could do a search here on MT or on any search engine to check the internet at large for information regarding Temple Kung Fu.  It is another case of a scam gone to its logical extremes.  The founder of TKF refers to himself as Dalai-Seng, calls his schools the Neo-Chan temple, and has tax exempt status in Canada because of the school's pseudo-religious leanings.

It was exposed on Kungfuonline a while back that in the transcripts of a lawsuit trial in Canada against the TKF founder that he had never actually ever studied kung fu, but studied some boxing as a child and read a book on kenpo.

Scary stuff, especially their late night commercials here in the Pacific Northwest showing this aged man with little physical effort dispatching ninjas and his own students...

Gotta see it to appreciate it.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:


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## yilisifu (Apr 14, 2003)

What a scam!


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## Kroy (Apr 14, 2003)

Are those commercials on the net anywhere? I gotta see them (I need a laugh)


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## yilisifu (Apr 14, 2003)

You might want to get some anti-nausea pills first.....


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## Kroy (Apr 14, 2003)

That bad eh?:barf:


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *:soapbox:
> I've read some posts on Chung Moo Doe. How can any of you, as martial artists, bash such a fine art? *




Cant say as I have ever heard of you guys.



> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *Our art is one of the deadliest taught in the world. *



Maybe people bash you because you make statements like the above.
I for one usually laugh when people claim to do one of the most deadly arts in the world.
My question for those folks is always: How many people have YOU killed using that art?




> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> * Tournaments won't let us in because they are afraid of what we can do! *



You are always welcome to any of my tournaments.





> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *People in other systems are just jealous of the fine physical and mental accomplishments we have made through Chung Moo Doe. *



Im not.



> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *I ask that you all show respect to one of the world's **TRUE** martial arts. *



Respect is reciprocalyou get it when you give it.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> *I'm not allowed to go over specifics of our training. *




Paaaalease.




> _Originally posted by chungmoowarrior _
> * I will, however, give you an insight to my training. Before I started, I was overwieght, and couldn't do excercise without taking a break. 3 years later, I'm 80 lbs lighter,
> 
> 
> ...


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## hatamotoyoshi (Apr 14, 2003)

wow, more martial arts scammers,
now i am a neophyte but i've been in a few tournaments,
even a couple of opens,
and so far nobody ever got killed.
saw a couple of knockouts ,had a bloody nose myself,
but on the whole no bloodsport kumite.
of course full contact to me means the local strip bar on a saturday night...bouncers vs. drunken badasses.
even there nobody got killed.
and let me take this opportunity to say hi! to gou and dutch.
i don't really hang at the york street ballet guys.




things either are or are not and they can't be both at the same time, some famous philosopher or other.


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## Jill666 (Apr 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> * The fact that these guys were sentenced to sixty months (5 years) for an essentially white collar crime means they have been back on the street for awhile now and have learned from their mistakes.  Learned how to pull off the con better, I mean.   *



Hey, I've just read this far; all I have to say is there's a Kim school in my city. So as for shutting down the operation, hey it's still trucking along. :shrug: 

I'll be reading the rest of the thread now.


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## yilisifu (Apr 15, 2003)

I agree wholly with RyuShihkan.  If you want respect, then show some.  But Don't come in here calling whatever you do (flips, kip-ups, cartwheels, and all the rest) the "deadliest" martial art!

   I've never heard of Chung Moo Do until now.


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## J-kid (Apr 15, 2003)

Hey your pissed off becaue people wont let you in dont make me laugh.
Please feel free to contact any fight area near you and they will set you up with a NHB match meaning No Hold Bars be as deadly as you want most are alot meaner then the UFC fights of today but the fighter quiltiy is alot lower.
Also i think you should look at this website
www.bullshido.com
Read the storey I am the product of a mcdojo.
After words find your self a nice MT or boxing or any Grappling art BJJ JUDO WRESTLING etc.
You will proble kick your self in the foot at first when you find out you are being ripped off.
ask your self these questions
Am i on a contract?
Do i pay over 100 dollars a month?
Do my belt test rise in price each month?
Am i really learning how to fight?
Am i paying hidden fees?
Did i feel like i was going to a used car lot when i first came to my Gym/Dojo?
I will link a few sites i want you to look at if you choose not to then you already know the truth and are afraid to conferm your beliefs but if you truely think that your art is so "DEADLY"etc.  
Click on these sites...........
http://www.bullshido.com/article_read.asp?id=40
http://www.bullshido.com/article_read.asp?id=71


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## Rob_Broad (Apr 15, 2003)

You guys should really pay better attention. Chung Moo Warrior hasn't been around since Feb 2002.  Shortly before he left he realized he was getting hosed by his instructor and organization.


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## Master of Blades (Apr 17, 2003)

That was a waste of time then :shrug:


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## vincefuess (Apr 17, 2003)

Charlatans who sell out the martial arts philosophy hurt all of us.  What is truth for many of us practitioners is disregarded because of the actions of these few.  Everything seems odd and mystical when you don't understand it, and these con artists capitalise on this.  The martial arts have always been presented in a fashion which makes them seem like ethereal powers can be gleaned, but those of us who have been around the martial block a few times know that the martial arts are nothing more than a way to tap into what we already posess.  Every man (and I use that term generically) has abilities beyond his own comprehension.  Practice, dedication, tenacity, and patience are what bring the rewards- not bowing down to some "God on Earth" who will light the path.  We are all flesh, blood, and spirit.  

Algebra seems like magic to a first grader.


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## yilisifu (Apr 17, 2003)

Algebra still seems like magic to me........


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## MartialArtist (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fist of fury _
> *Yes please enlighten us I know very little about your art. However the statement that you cannot enter tournaments because they fear what you can do seems like an weak excuse.
> there's only one art thats too deadly for competition and I posted a video clip in the sports and entertainment board *


Yellow Bamboo?  That **** is dangerous!


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## MartialArtist (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *I've also got another question for you, chungmoo...
> 
> According to your profile, you just got your 2nd dan, after only three years of training.  Many systems won't give a shodan until at least three years of training, much less a 2nd dan.  In fact, in my system, getting a black belt in five years is considered very fast.
> ...


I agree :rofl:


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## MartialArtist (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *No, little kids most certainly did not make those stories up, since many of the instructors were also preaching them (unless you're saying your instructors are little kids).
> 
> I forgot to mention one claim...my favorite one:  that Bruce Lee was killed by someone in the CMD organization for revealing CMD/Q secrets.
> ...


You don't get that in any combat-oriented system.  Brotherhood, camraderie, loyalty, and honor are all stressed...  Unless the guy is your instructor, who although is loyal, doesn't hesitate to hit you if you mess up...  All for your own good.


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## MartialArtist (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thaiboxer _
> *typically said of a person who cant really fight. furthermore, if all chung moo doe is, is a culmination of martial arts, all "iron" kim has done is what bruce lee did before him, so hes no pioneer.
> As for being the "deadliest", well no more deadly than anything else on the market, after all, there are only so many ways to hurt someone. *


Even before Lee, there were many who led revolutions in the "classic" era of thinking on being limited which really wasn't the case as they were also open, but learning what suited you best wasn't as common as it was today with modern luxuries.


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## MartialArtist (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dutch _
> *I think to sum it up. The style and "Iron Kim" suck. Who the hell is named "Kim" anyway? It's a girl's name. *


Just one of the most popular surnames in Korea


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## DAC..florida (Apr 18, 2003)

I have actually looked into a Chung Moo Doe school in florida
I asked the sensai questions about the style and all he did was try to impress me with the achievments of IRON KIM when I told him that I was not interested what this style has done for others but what it could do for me he showed me some wierd stance that he had me stand in for 5min.
I then asked how much the monthly fees were and he replied that the price was different for everyone and if I was serious about joining we could go into the office.
I then asked him if I could try a class to make sure it was the style for me, his reply was that I could have a few private lessons but I would not be allowed to attend regular classes until I joined, and then he corrected me on the use of the word style stating the Chung Moo Doe is a lifestyle not a M.A. style.  :asian:


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## Master of Blades (Apr 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> *Charlatans who sell out the martial arts philosophy hurt all of us.  What is truth for many of us practitioners is disregarded because of the actions of these few.  Everything seems odd and mystical when you don't understand it, and these con artists capitalise on this.  The martial arts have always been presented in a fashion which makes them seem like ethereal powers can be gleaned, but those of us who have been around the martial block a few times know that the martial arts are nothing more than a way to tap into what we already posess.  Every man (and I use that term generically) has abilities beyond his own comprehension.  Practice, dedication, tenacity, and patience are what bring the rewards- not bowing down to some "God on Earth" who will light the path.  We are all flesh, blood, and spirit.
> 
> Algebra seems like magic to a first grader. *




My statement was directed at the fact that ChungMooWarrior stated we were all right AGES ago in a seperate post (And a few others lol) After that he left.....So not much point trying to help him now :asian:


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