# Punching



## ATC (Dec 4, 2012)

Just thought I'd show a clip of a girl that used punching to win a match. The match did not stop because of the punches but it really soften up the other girl to where she could not do anything. The girl trains at Garr Sports Taekwondo in San Jose just down the street from us. They really emphasize punching as a part of their training.
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## SPX (Dec 4, 2012)

Ha ha.  That was cool.  She was wailing on that girl.

I hate it when people fall down after landing spinning hook kicks, though.  Seems like it you fall down maybe it shouldn't count or something.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2012)

How many of those very nicely done punches scored points?


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 4, 2012)

SPX said:


> Ha ha.  That was cool.  She was wailing on that girl.
> 
> I hate it when people fall down after landing spinning hook kicks, though.  Seems like it you fall down maybe it shouldn't count or something.


At the very least it should teach us not to do that.


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## SPX (Dec 4, 2012)

If you watch, you'll see that her foot was off the ground before the kick even landed, so apparently there is exactly what you're talking about in her dojang:  a failure to teach their students not to do that.  And I've seen it time and time again in WTF competition.  

But not to get too far off topic . . . I do like the punches and she had a really good showing out there.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 4, 2012)

Looks like she hit the other girl in the arm at least once or twice and maybe more than that (hard to tell since the other girl's body was blocking part of the view). She also missed connecting at least one shot. It's too bad the WTF limits punches to the torso as you could see in the video how exposed both of their heads were when they got in punching range. 

It would be nice to see a WTF match or two where no one fell down after kicking 

Pax,

Chris


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Looks like she hit the other girl in the arm at least once or twice and maybe more than that (hard to tell since the other girl's body was blocking part of the view). She also missed connecting at least one shot. It's too bad the WTF limits punches to the torso as you could see in the video how exposed both of their heads were when they got in punching range.
> 
> It would be nice to see a WTF match or two where no one fell down after kicking
> 
> ...



Very true. Watching this years Olympic Team trials, it struck me how blatantly falling down is being used to prevent/avoid counterstrikes.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 4, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Very true. Watching this years Olympic Team trials, it struck me how blatantly falling down is being used to prevent/avoid counterstrikes.


I cant understand why falling down isnt some sort of penalty. It shouldnt be encouraged, its poor technique and fall down in a real fight and its good night.


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## Manny (Dec 4, 2012)

ok what you see is WTF sparring and that's a full contact sport where punches or any other hand tech is allow to the face head area however any kick to this are scores by 3 points! Yes you read me it's a full contact game, that's why no matter if you conect the head and fall to the mat in the intent.

Now if you got me, this video is from a sport competition or game THAT video is not self defense or fighthing for life, offcourse that fighting in the street I will not use a spining jumping hook kick (ala Van Dame) cause this is to risky for me, offcourse I will not use a roundhouse kick the head level, BUT I will viciusly kick the legs,groin,bladder,even the stomach or the floating ribs, that's TKD for self defense and offcourse I will use my hands to try to knock down the other guy.

Manny


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## Gorilla (Dec 4, 2012)

Gel is a tough fighter....and a great girl....nice family!


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## Cyriacus (Dec 4, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Looks like she hit the other girl in the arm at least once or twice and maybe more than that (hard to tell since the other girl's body was blocking part of the view). She also missed connecting at least one shot. It's too bad the WTF limits punches to the torso as you could see in the video how exposed both of their heads were when they got in punching range.
> 
> It would be nice to see a WTF match or two where no one fell down after kicking
> 
> ...



And since one hand is down doing the punches to the body, the other has to guard you. But because shes pressing in at punching range, keeping her hand up at her head risks accidentally touching her in the face with her fist. I know you already acknowledged that, by the way. I was agreeing with you, and poking it myself slightly.

As a general response, i like her philosophy. Go in there, beat her up, THEN score points


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 4, 2012)

Let's all cheer for a 14 year old girl getting kicked in the head and going to the ground.  Yah!!! Kick harder next time so that she is unconscious! Yehhh!  

That's the part of tkd I find peculiar.  Parents and coaches say "TKD is only for self defense" then they cheer when their kid lands a hard kick to the head of some other kid who is less skilled or athletic.  

The punches in a tkd match were interesting to see nonetheless.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 4, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I cant understand why falling down isnt some sort of penalty. It shouldnt be encouraged, its poor technique and fall down in a real fight and its good night.



The way it was explained to me was that it's so people are encouraged to try more technically difficult kicks (which are scored higher). 

Personally, I don't think it's a great idea since it removes WTF Taekwondo even farther from its martial arts roots than it already is. Besides, it's unnecessary. The ITF, for instance, has various scores for standing kicks to the middle section, standing kicks to the high section, flying kicks to the mid section, and flying kicks to the high section and still doesn't allow people to blatantly fall down after kicking.  

But then no one asked me when they were writing up the WTF sparring rules 

Pax,

Chris


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## SPX (Dec 4, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Let's all cheer for a 14 year old girl getting kicked in the head and going to the ground.  Yah!!! Kick harder next time so that she is unconscious! Yehhh!



Hey, that's the name of the game man.  She knew what she was getting into when she walked out there.  She'll live.




Gwai Lo Dan said:


> That's the part of tkd I find peculiar. * Parents and coaches say "TKD is only for self defense"* then they cheer when their kid lands a hard kick to the head of some other kid who is less skilled or athletic.



Do they say that?  Not in WTF schools, no, they don't say that.

Unless by "only for self-defense" they mean, Don't go out and start fights.


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## Gorilla (Dec 4, 2012)

I have seen Gel get beat pretty bad when she first started as a JR...in have never seen that girl quit....I have seen that girl fight a hundred times.  she is about 4'10 which is tiny for 101....


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## ATC (Dec 5, 2012)

The falling is a problem as many are taught to fall after even simple round kicks as to not get countered. I really hate when I see it. But for jump back spinning kicks like in the video sometimes you have no option but to fall as you totally sell out when committed to the kick. As you watch in this vid, Angelica was in tight when she threw the kick and had to stay with the kick even on the inside until the hook of the kick. Once the hook landed she was not in position to have the kick finish coming back behind her. The girls body was literally between landing the kick so her only option was to fall. This was not a case in where you could land or finish the kick based on the distance and angle of the kick. Believe it or not it really takes some skill to execute this kick from the distance that Gel did and land the kick on the intended target. Most people would simply stop the kick and not make contact. You have to sell out to make this kick work at that distance and you can't be afraid to fall. Again I have seen many that cannot do this kick from that distance and make it land. It is not easy.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 5, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> !
> 
> That's the part of tkd I find peculiar.  Parents and coaches say "TKD is only for self defense" .



I don't find it peculiar to consider something to be used for Self defense and yet not be confined to "Defensive".  techniques. 

One primary tool for Defense is and Should be a pre emptive attack.


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## GrandmasterP (Dec 5, 2012)

Two good girls, who'll likely have no problem getting, keeping and doing well at any job they choose.
Shame more parents don't encourage their kids to have a go, this sort of thing builds character.
I don't know the style but had they been Pakua I'd have taught them both to be a bit more sunk and grounded. They were both a bit 'up and top' off-balance at times , just kids though and all respect to them.


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## GrandmasterP (Dec 5, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> I don't find it peculiar to consider something to be used for Self defense and yet not be confined to "Defensive".  techniques.
> 
> One primary tool for Defense is and Should be a pre emptive attack.


..........
Good luck with that as a defence in court.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 5, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> I don't find it peculiar to consider something to be used for Self defense and yet not be confined to "Defensive".  techniques.
> 
> One primary tool for Defense is and Should be a pre emptive attack.


Pre-empting aside, you cant just rely on blocking and evasiveness. Thats all well and good until you get hit. You need 'offense' in your 'defense'.


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## GrandmasterP (Dec 5, 2012)

Agreed , retaliation is a fair defence but pre emptively twatting somebody before they've  made a move is perhaps shaky grounds for acquittal.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 5, 2012)

ATC said:


> The falling is a problem as many are taught to fall after even simple round kicks as to not get countered. I really hate when I see it. But for jump back spinning kicks like in the video sometimes you have no option but to fall as you totally sell out when committed to the kick.



 Of course you have a choice even when throwing that kick. It's very possible to do a spinning kick and hit someone full force without falling down. Doing so shows that you lack control in the technique. That might be understandable for a 14 year old, but then since we're talking about an activity that is ostensibly a martial art (KKW Taekwondo) I'd say it still doesn't deserve to be scored, or at least merits a warning. Otherwise there is little motivation to change behavior. 



> As you watch in this vid, Angelica was in tight when she threw the kick and had to stay with the kick even on the inside until the hook of the kick. Once the hook landed she was not in position to have the kick finish coming back behind her. The girls body was literally between landing the kick so her only option was to fall. This was not a case in where you could land or finish the kick based on the distance and angle of the kick.



Just means she should've moved out first, that's all. If you're interested in performing techniques that don't make you fall down people should become familiar with the proper angle and distance to use them. The video obviously is an example that the kick can be thrown from the inside. But it's also an exmaple that, at least in this instance (and I'd hazard to say many others) the people who do this kick in WTF matches are building some pretty bad habits, just like not keeping their guard up. 

I know, I know holding yur hands down is really part of a great defensive strategy. I'm sure there will be people who will argue the same is true for losing your balance and falling down (I kid! Kind of.) If the WTF is going to allow people to fall down and not penalize them then this is a behavior that they are fostering (and in some sense you could say it's something they value). It will continue because there's no reason to change. The only problem in my eyes is that it's a "strategy" used by people who practice a martial art with the same name as the one I do. Sigh.



> Believe it or not it really takes some skill to execute this kick from the distance that Gel did and land the kick on the intended target. Most people would simply stop the kick and not make contact. You have to sell out to make this kick work at that distance and you can't be afraid to fall. Again I have seen many that cannot do this kick from that distance and make it land. It is not easy.



It takes skill to do so, sure. But not as much as being able to move out from the clinch enough to execute it properly while still defending yourself from a counterattack. Look, the girl did win her match. That's great for her. But she did it using what seems to be developing as the norm for WTF matches, viz. kick and then fall without worrying about the consequences. 

Pax,

Chris


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## ATC (Dec 5, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Of course you have a choice even when throwing that kick. It's very possible to do a spinning kick and hit someone full force without falling down...


Of course it is. No one is saying that it is not.




chrispillertkd said:


> Just means she should've moved out first, that's all.


Not always an option, When someone is moving in or pushing forward you simply can't just move out to do your tech as you may move out into a technique and be hit or KO'd yourself.



chrispillertkd said:


> It takes skill to do so, sure. But not as much as being able to move out from the clinch enough to execute it properly while still defending yourself from a counterattack.


Again, it all depends on the situation. To me it seems like many on here are simply use to kicking bags or none dynamic moving targets, they are use to kicking things that don't move or kick back. Most don't compete and don't have others across from them trying to full force knock their heads off. On the other hand there are others that do but they also use hands to the head so once inside they don't have to or don't choose to kick to the head as the hands are a better option. So again that situation has an option that prevents them from even trying or thinking of some of the kicks to the head that WTF people will try or use. To simply say that they don't, should not have, could not have, would not have means nothing until you try and see. She did not fall on purpose. She threw and committed to a kick on a person that was moving in at non kicking distance, made that kick land and fell in the process due to not being able to get her feet under her do to the distance of the opponent and the movement of the opponent. Again I am not saying that people don't intentionally fall as I have already stated that they do, and on even simpler kicks as to not get countered or for whatever reason and yes this is a problem and I don't like it either. But to simply say that every kick is that way in live dynamic combat is also just as ridiculous.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 5, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Let's all cheer for a 14 year old girl getting kicked in the head and going to the ground.  Yah!!! Kick harder next time so that she is unconscious! Yehhh!
> 
> That's the part of tkd I find peculiar.  Parents and coaches say "TKD is only for self defense" then they cheer when their kid lands a hard kick to the head of some other kid who is less skilled or athletic.



This.

Yes, it is very hypocritical and I've states so many times before. But then TKD is predominately a children's martial art as it keeps the doors of the dojang open. And we need to put the carrot before the child's eyes with lots of pretty colored belts and competition (which has nothing to do with true martial arts) because it keeps them interested and the money flowing.  No, it isn't a popular opinion.  Yes, I'll probably get grief over it.  No, my position won't change.  Yes, kids do get hurt in this 'game'.  No, it won't stop the practice.  Yes, it should be criminalized.  No, it isn't necessary for true mastery of the martial arts.  And yes, that's just the way I feel about it.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 5, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> I don't find it peculiar to consider something to be used for Self defense and yet not be confined to "Defensive".  techniques.
> 
> One primary tool for Defense is and Should be a pre emptive attack.



Bingo!



			
				GrandmasterP said:
			
		

> Good luck with that as a defence in court.



It is completely defensible in a court of law.  One is under no obligation to get punched before defending themselves.  Pre-fight indicators, if articulated accurately and correctly, are a viable defense.  I use pre-emptive striking/grabbing/locking all the time.  It isn't arbitrary, it is calculated on officer/subject factors, pre-fight indicators to include body language, body posture, body positioning and verbal interaction i.e. intent and ability.

As an example, if someone has the ability to do me harm (they are close to me or have the ability to move close to me), if they have expressed their intent to do me harm (either verbally or non-verbally with body language such as clenching fists, positioning themselves offensively, breathing heavily etc),  and if de-escalation/escape/evasion is not a viable option or a consideration due to the circumstances....then a pre-emptive strike and/or other technique such as a lock/throw etc will be forth-coming directly.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 5, 2012)

ATC said:


> Of course it is. No one is saying that it is not.



Well, actually, you said: "*But for jump back spinning kicks like in the video sometimes you have no option but to fall as you totally sell out when committed to the kick.*"

My comment was in reference to this statement, which seemed to indicate the opposite of what I said. IMNSHO, it's totally possible _not_ to "have no option but to fall" even when striking at full power. If you do fall when doing so it's a matter of simply choosing the wrong technique at the wrong time. In a game with no penalty for falling down it's not a problem. But it's also quite possible to avoid doing that.



> Not always an option, When someone is moving in or pushing forward you simply can't just move out to do your tech as you may move out into a technique and be hit or KO'd yourself.



Working angles and retreating are part of the game. You'll see lots of ITF fighters, for example, attacking while backing up and hitting their opponents as they try to chase them. But saying it's "not always an option" is a truism. Nothing is _always_ an option. My point was that if you want to do the technique correctly you'll have to have ample room for it. If you don't you do something else. Now, in a WTF match it's no big deal because you can fall down. So you don't have to do the technique correctly (and for the purpose of this conversation I define doing a technique correctly as including not just the execution of the kick but also recovery of one's balance so you can continue fighting). 

But your statement is interesting. It illustrates the fact that the WTF has made controlling the distance and maintaining one's balance, and less important than they once were. That's their perogative, of course, it's just an interesting observation.



> Again, it all depends on the situation. To me it seems like many on here are simply use to kicking bags or none dynamic moving targets, they are use to kicking things that don't move or kick back.



 I don't think my statement depends on the situation. It really is harder to back up, avoid a counter attack, and execute a reverse hooking kick (or what have you) at proper distance and full force than it does to kick and fall down because you're too close and off balance. I don't know that that is debateable.

As for how many people don't practice against a dynamic target of never engage an opponent who doesn't kick back, I'd say none. People might not put on a hogu and do a WTF tournament but I don't know anyone here who has indicated they train in a manner you indicate. Maybe there are some who never free spar at all, but I don't know of any.



> Most don't compete and don't have others across from them trying to full force knock their heads off. On the other hand there are others that do but they also use hands to the head so once inside they don't have to or don't choose to kick to the head as the hands are a better option. So again that situation has an option that prevents them from even trying or thinking of some of the kicks to the head that WTF people will try or use. To simply say that they don't, should not have, could not have, would not have means nothing until you try and see.



 I made my comments within the context of the WTF rules and didn't say anyone _shouldn't_ do anything, except when I said the girl should've moved back first in order to not fall down. And that was in reply to your comment that she basically couldn't not fall down. Without doing anything different, yes. But of course she could've prevented it if need be. But I specifically pointed out more than once that under the WTF rules it's irrelevant whether you fall down or not. I think it's stupid and an unnecessary development by the WTF but, again, they didn't ask my opinion  

The video that was posted illustrates both the punching rules the WTF has and the allowance for falling down, which are two things that many people think are silly, bad, or whatever. I was unimpressed with the punching that was shown (and pointed out that the fostering of a low guard causing one's head to be dangerously open was shown, too) and that saying people can kick and fall down without penalty will result in ... people kicking and falling down. I'm sure the girl in the video is very skillful, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to critique things that are posted in a thread for people to see (and ostensibly critique)  



> She did not fall on purpose. She threw and committed to a kick on a person that was moving in at non kicking distance, made that kick land and fell in the process due to not being able to get her feet under her do to the distance of the opponent and the movement of the opponent. Again I am not saying that people don't intentionally fall as I have already stated that they do, and on even simpler kicks as to not get countered or for whatever reason and yes this is a problem and I don't like it either. But to simply say that every kick is that way in live dynamic combat is also just as ridiculous.



I'm not really sure what you're saying here. I didn't say the girl fell on purpose. Nor did I say every kick in a WTF match results in people falling down (though I've seen some that were pretty close). I made a few comments about the WTF making it more likely people will fall down when they kick because, well, they did. I'd also say that saying she started kicking before her opponent began moving in isn't accurate. She launched her first kick, reset, and then began kicking after the other girl began closing. Maybe she thought she was fast enough to hit her before she got too close. But it's irrelevant because she can fall down without penalty. 

My only point was that if you don't want to do that you need to better control the distance 

Pax,

Chris


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## ATC (Dec 5, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Well, actually, you said: "*But for jump back spinning kicks like in the video sometimes you have no option but to fall as you totally sell out when committed to the kick.*"
> 
> My comment was in reference to this statement, which seemed to indicate the opposite of what I said. IMNSHO, it's totally possible _not_ to "have no option but to fall" even when striking at full power. If you do fall when doing so it's a matter of simply choosing the wrong technique at the wrong time. In a game with no penalty for falling down it's not a problem. But it's also quite possible to avoid doing that.
> 
> ...


My statement that you highlighted in bold has one key word in it that make it very valid and that is "*sometimes*". I do not speak in absolutes. Any sort of combat is dynamic and ever changing. The person across from you is trying to do the same things you are and more than not what you want is not going to work or look like what you practice. Even boxers that don't kick fall down. Most of the things you stated work well in the movies but in any ring of any style not so simple. Just because you want to control the distance does not mean that you will at all time or even at most times. That is why in every combat sport they clench very easily. You want to hit someone but they move in and clinch, just as sometimes they move out of your range.

For you if your opponent is always at your perfect distance waiting to be hit then great for you. I have yet seen that to be the case. Maybe against someone that has no or very little experience.

You can say angles all you want, angles are just a tool but by no means are the end all be all controlling factor. I have seen many people angle straight into attacks as you can't always read everything correctly. Plus angles can and do get anticipated as well.

I had an instructor once that tried to train people as if everything he told them would work if they just did it. He taught as if the person you would be up against would just stand there. I always found that interesting.

I simply have one question for you. Have you ever done WTF rule set sparring? If so have you ever done it with someone of National Championship caliber?


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 5, 2012)

ATC said:


> My statement that you highlighted in bold has one key word in it that make it very valid and that is "*sometimes*". I do not speak in absolutes.



Yes, I know. But I figured the context of my post made it quite clear that I was also speaking in a similar manner with the caveat that if you wanted to do that kick without falling down you would have to make sure you gave yourself the proper room to do it in. If you couldn't do that you should pick a more appropriate tool. If you didn't want to fall down. If you do, or simply don't care, then it doesn't matter all that much.



> You can say angles all you want, angles are just a tool but by no means are the end all be all controlling factor. I have seen many people angle straight into attacks as you can't always read everything correctly. Plus angles can and do get anticipated as well.



Well, sure. Which is why I also talked about controlling the distance. But there are tons of variables that need to be taken into account when sparring. If you want to say that there are exceptions to everything (which there may be) then you're just saying you don't want to atlk about things, or people can't critique the video you posted for some reason. 



> I had an instructor once that tried to train people as if everything he told them would work if they just did it. He taught as if the person you would be up against would just stand there. I always found that interesting.



I don't know if I'd call that "interesting."



> I simply have one question for you. Have you ever done WTF rule set sparring?



 Yes.



> If so have you ever done it with someone of National Championship caliber?



Well, they weren't at nationals, they were local and state tournaments. I have no idea if anyone there were going on to nationals or not. There were some people who were very good and some who weren't and some inbetween.

But, really, that's like asking a doctor who has diagnosed you with cancer if he has ever had the disease or if an economist who is talking about what would result in more widespread wealth if he's ever been poor himself. It's interesting but maybe not as relevant as you might think.

Pax,

Chris


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## Kframe (Dec 5, 2012)

One thing, this video highlights is something i see in other tkd videos that show significant punching is the following. As a student of boxing and mma, i noticed that ALOT of tkd are dropping there hands after the punches. There straight punches look great, but they fail to keep there hands in there guard after the punch.  They often drop to the waist. I can still see my old boxing coach correcting me when my hands dropped below my shoulders...   Its not just these girls, but i see it alot in videos of tkd fighters punching in competition.  Im not sure why this is, cuase while the art is alot of kicking, surely when hand tech practice comes up, proper technique is stressed by the instructor. (i would hope) 

Can you guys shed any light on this? Is it just fighters unnacustomed to fighting with there hands and pulling what would amount to newb mistakes in boxing or is there something else im missing? Are they dropping there hands to there hips on purpose?


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## ATC (Dec 5, 2012)

Kframe said:


> One thing, this video highlights is something i see in other tkd videos that show significant punching is the following. As a student of boxing and mma, i noticed that ALOT of tkd are dropping there hands after the punches. There straight punches look great, but they fail to keep there hands in there guard after the punch.  They often drop to the waist. I can still see my old boxing coach correcting me when my hands dropped below my shoulders...   Its not just these girls, but i see it alot in videos of tkd fighters punching in competition.  Im not sure why this is, cuase while the art is alot of kicking, surely when hand tech practice comes up, proper technique is stressed by the instructor. (i would hope)
> 
> Can you guys shed any light on this? Is it just fighters unnacustomed to fighting with there hands and pulling what would amount to newb mistakes in boxing or is there something else im missing? Are they dropping there hands to there hips on purpose?


Well the sport has no face punching at all, so if you are at punching range there is not a need to protect the head from the hands. But you need to protect from a kick and the best way to defend a kick to the body or the head is to block or prevent the kick from coming up. A lot of people even in the martial arts world practice blocking kicks at the point of contact. Kick coming to the head put your hands up and block the kick before it is about to hit the head. Well that hurts and most times you really can't stop the kick from hitting your head but simply slow it down. A good WTF teacher will teach that the best way to not get hit in the head with a kick is to first move, 2nd is to block the kick by preventing it from getting up. The Axe and Round kick are the most commonly used kicks in WTF rules sparring, If I can block your kick before it gets started (at about waist level) but I also don't run the risk of the kick slipping past my guard or pushing my guard into myself. The rules dictate how you fight. I have seen many try to come out in a boxing stance with hands held high get their bodies beat down only to have the hands drop anyway and then get KO'd or hit in the head. Also the more forward stance leaves you open for cut and back kicks to the mid section.


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## Kframe (Dec 5, 2012)

ATC im not talking about a boxer stance bro. Im  talking about the Low to mid lvl TKD guard. Alot of TKD people regardless of org, are dropping there hands not down to there low guard, but toward and often past there waist after punching. If you have a low guard, fine, bring your hands back to your guard, but no matter the style, there is no call to completely drop your hands down toward your knees as is often the case. They did it frequently in that video and i see it frequently in videos of ITF sparring.   Im not advocating a high above shoulders guard, becuase your right your body is exposed, but keeping your hands near your upper chest solar plexus and there abouts would be a great middle ground. Since i have started mma, i have noticed my guard lowering. I only switch to my boxer guard when im against punchy people. 

Now here is one thing you need to be aware of. Just becuase i (when i say I i mean, people with a high boxerish guard) have a high guard, does not mean i cant protect my body effectively. Here is a youtube video showing the inside fighting "block" used in boxing and mma. Here it is to the right side. 



 Here it is on the left side. 



  He mentions hooks, and close range, but it only takes slight modification to the movements to block straight attacks.  On a side note, its not that far removed from the Muay thai elbow/knee block. Only thing missing is the knee.  I have used it against kicks and punchs during heavy sparring to good effect.


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## ATC (Dec 5, 2012)

Kframe said:


> ATC im not talking about a boxer stance bro. Im  talking about the Low to mid lvl TKD guard. Alot of TKD people regardless of org, are dropping there hands not down to there low guard, but toward and often past there waist after punching. If you have a low guard, fine, bring your hands back to your guard, but no matter the style, there is no call to completely drop your hands down toward your knees as is often the case. They did it frequently in that video and i see it frequently in videos of ITF sparring.   Im not advocating a high above shoulders guard, becuase your right your body is exposed, but keeping your hands near your upper chest solar plexus and there abouts would be a great middle ground. Since i have started mma, i have noticed my guard lowering. I only switch to my boxer guard when im against punchy people.
> 
> Now here is one thing you need to be aware of. Just becuase i (when i say I i mean, people with a high boxerish guard) have a high guard, does not mean i cant protect my body effectively. Here is a youtube video showing the inside fighting "block" used in boxing and mma. Here it is to the right side.
> 
> ...


Yes I got what you were saying and answered that. I just added the stance as an also. But the first part of my reply should have answered you. If not then to summarize  It is best suited for the rule set of the sport to have your hands lower.


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## Kframe (Dec 5, 2012)

Then its foolish. You fight like you train, and if you consistently train with your hand at your knees, then guess what when a real fight happens, guess were your hands will be..  There are far more punch's in real street fighting, and a good guy must consider the proper level of responding force towards a given attack. Using your kicks is not always appropriate, especialy when up close, you had better have your guard up and deflections ready.  

How can one say that training with your hands down, wont affect your ability to defend your self? Your hands are important and had better be employed.  How can you instinctively do that, if your always training with your sport guard? Muscle memory is important and how you train it  will influence your self defense. So always having your hands down is a bad thing as you are building muscle memory that says ok fight time hands down... 

Now i know why my mma coach quit wtf tkd after his 2nd dan...


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## Cyriacus (Dec 5, 2012)

Kframe said:


> Then its foolish. You fight like you train, and if you consistently train with your hand at your knees, then guess what when a real fight happens, guess were your hands will be..  There are far more punch's in real street fighting, and a good guy must consider the proper level of responding force towards a given attack. Using your kicks is not always appropriate, especialy when up close, you had better have your guard up and deflections ready.
> 
> How can one say that training with your hands down, wont affect your ability to defend your self? Your hands are important and had better be employed.  How can you instinctively do that, if your always training with your sport guard? Muscle memory is important and how you train it  will influence your self defense. So always having your hands down is a bad thing as you are building muscle memory that says ok fight time hands down...
> 
> Now i know why my mma coach quit wtf tkd after his 2nd dan...


What about the Boxers and MMA fighters who fight with their hands down?


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## Gorilla (Dec 5, 2012)

On this BBS you are in the majority....your opinion is very clear...it is also clear that you are not open to changing your mind...thus making you the final word...all discussion closed....

QUOTE=Kong Soo Do;1534267]This.

Yes, it is very hypocritical and I've states so many times before. But then TKD is predominately a children's martial art as it keeps the doors of the dojang open. And we need to put the carrot before the child's eyes with lots of pretty colored belts and competition (which has nothing to do with true martial arts) because it keeps them interested and the money flowing.  No, it isn't a popular opinion.  Yes, I'll probably get grief over it.  No, my position won't change.  Yes, kids do get hurt in this 'game'.  No, it won't stop the practice.  Yes, it should be criminalized.  No, it isn't necessary for true mastery of the martial arts.  And yes, that's just the way I feel about it.[/QUOTE]


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## Kframe (Dec 5, 2012)

Cyracius every one of my boxing and mma coach's teach that under no cicumstance is my guard to be down. Now my mma guard and my boxing only guard are different. Boxing guard above shoulders, mma below but that is still a high guard.  There is lots of boxing and mma guards, none of them at the hips. Except for certain stratagies that only get employed for short periods, such as purposely dangling one hand down to invite body shots, setting up your planned counter attack. That stance is not how one would fight the whole fight............


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## Kframe (Dec 5, 2012)

Gorilla, prove me wrong then sir. Prove to me, that fighting with your hands down by your **** is a perfectly viable way of defending against punch's and grabs and clinch fighting.. I want MAJOR proof, videos, ect of a WTF'er with his hands by his ****, defending punch's grabs and throws and clinching..


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## Gorilla (Dec 5, 2012)

Kframe said:


> Gorilla, prove me wrong then sir. Prove to me, that fighting with your hands down by your **** is a perfectly viable way of defending against punch's and grabs and clinch fighting.. I want MAJOR proof, videos, ect of a WTF'er with his hands by his ****, defending punch's grabs and throws and clinching..



It isn't and I have never said that it was!  A WTF fighter under that rule set would not fight with his hands down if he had any sense...we train In Boxing Judo karate and Tkd ...we employ guards in each one...


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## Kframe (Dec 5, 2012)

Competition does affect "true martial arts".  If the stance you use during a regular dojo class and the one you sparr with, there is a disconnect.  You can not get around muscle memory. Im sorry its  a fact. I know my startle responce, and it is my high boxer guard.  Its my muscle memory. Now as i get through the OODA loop, i can then orient my stance to better address the situation at hand.   

Part of learning self defense, is learning how your body reacts to adrenalin. Fine motor skills go away, you rely on gross motor movements. My first few times dealing with the "adrenalin dump" as its called, i found my self nearly unable to think.  Sparring is vitaly important to acclimating to the enviroment of a high stress situation. I agree that WTF Foot tag, does in deed prepare for that. The problem is, that if the wtf practitioner is interested in self defense, and the only sparring they get in class is wtf style, then they will be in essence training 2 different styles of Martial arts, while only reinforcing the 1.  

Can you truely switch from one fight stance(Self defense non wtf sparring) to olympic sparring stance and still  remain effective? Do you practice your non olympic fight stance regularly and with any kind pressure? If attacked on the street or startled which stace do you fall into naturaly while in the throws of the OODA loop?


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## Kframe (Dec 5, 2012)

Gorilla, what im saying is, the stance you spend the most time in is the stance you will default to when the crud hits the fan. How much time, in a regular WTF training session is spent using regular fight stance and olympic stance?  How do you go about building muscle memory with the stance you dont sparr with? I have yet to see any of you wtf people address that.


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## Gorilla (Dec 5, 2012)

We are able to use different guard and different stances based on sport and circumstance....sorry. And we are not just WTF people...


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## Gorilla (Dec 5, 2012)

By the way...my kids use a high guard quite often in Tkd matches....


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## Kframe (Dec 5, 2012)

I was hoping for more specifics.


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## Gorilla (Dec 5, 2012)

Kframe said:


> I was hoping for more specifics.



Sorry to disappoint... but you make allot of definitive statements...I can only assume that you are the final world!


The more I think about it you guys are right all WTF Tkd fighter can't defend themselves...we are never leaving the house based on our poor muscle memory and bad technique... Just to dangerous....must start training in self defense full time before our ultimate demise!

Thanks for saving us!!!!

I fell down editing this post...Thank god I was in the living room!


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## Jaeimseu (Dec 5, 2012)

If a WTF match doesn't resemble an actual "fight," why must a WTF fighter react in an "Olympic" stance? If they are attacked in the street by a guy wearing a white dobok and a hogu, maybe they will, but I think there is a big difference between the two situations. I remember playing flag football in PE class when I was in high school. There were actual football players playing with us who practiced everyday to hit the guy carrying the ball, but nobody got hit in the game. 

People like to use this "fight like you train" line, but in my opinion it's used to often and in too many situations.


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## Kframe (Dec 5, 2012)

So your saying that despite, your olymic styling, you can still employ a normal guard and that said guard is in fact in  your muscle memory?


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## Gorilla (Dec 5, 2012)

Kframe said:


> So your saying that despite, your olymic styling, you can still employ a normal guard and that said guard is in fact in  your muscle memory?



We train in multiple martial arts so yes!!!!!

You refer to " Olympic Styling" an odd way to put it BTW...as some sort of illness!  Very funny!


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## Cyriacus (Dec 5, 2012)

Kframe said:


> Cyracius every one of my boxing and mma coach's teach that under no cicumstance is my guard to be down. Now my mma guard and my boxing only guard are different. Boxing guard above shoulders, mma below but that is still a high guard.  There is lots of boxing and mma guards, none of them at the hips. Except for certain stratagies that only get employed for short periods, such as purposely dangling one hand down to invite body shots, setting up your planned counter attack. That stance is not how one would fight the whole fight............


Thats you, and i know the benefits of having your hands up. But what about the ones who do have their hands down around their hips for most of the fight?


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## Gorilla (Dec 5, 2012)

K-frame you are an MMA guy!  Benson Henderson and Anderson Silva employ a wide variety of guards...from low below the hips to a high guard...both are Tkd BB!  So look them up on YOUTUBE!


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## ATC (Dec 6, 2012)

Kframe said:


> Gorilla, what im saying is, the stance you spend the most time in is the stance you will default to when the crud hits the fan. How much time, in a regular WTF training session is spent using regular fight stance and olympic stance?  How do you go about building muscle memory with the stance you dont sparr with? I have yet to see any of you wtf people address that.


Muscle Memory is nothing more than enough repetitions at something that you can then do it instinctively. It is not real memory. If we were to take your logic of muscle memory then no one would ever learn to play more than one instrument. Playing an instrument such as the guitar or piano is nothing more than muscle memory. If you play both you simply have muscle memory for two things.

_Definition looked up for muscle memory - Muscle memory has been used synonymously with motor learning, which is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition. When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems. Examples of muscle memory are found in many everyday activities that become automatic and improve with practice, such as riding a bicycle, typing on a keyboard, typing in a PIN, playing a melody or phrase on a musical instrument, playing video games, or performing different algorithms for a Rubik's Cube._

If one practices any set of multiple sports they will develop muscle memory for both sports and may find that each actually help one another.

You can't think of muscle memory as true memory because it is not.

I was a boxer before I did and taught TKD and can switch between both with no problem. I never kicked anyone while boxing them and never punched anyone in the face while sparring them under WTF rules. And my boxing stance is nothing like my TKD sparring stance.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 6, 2012)

GrandmasterP said:


> ..........
> Good luck with that as a defence in court.



It is better to be tried by 12 tha carried by 6.   There are also ways to set up the pre emptive attack (which may or may not be available)  so that it will appear to witnesses as though it's a reaction as opposed to an action.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 6, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> What about the Boxers and MMA fighters who fight with their hands down?



They are usualy referred to as the loser.  (Not counting when they are out range. )


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 6, 2012)

Seems Gorilla and Kframe are talkingpast each other. 

Kframe adresses WTF style fighters who train predominantely or exclusively for that sport. We know there are plenty out there and they have certain habits that woud be difficult to breeak and are counter productive for SD, and then we have Gorilla who seems to promote and teach a variety of sparring and SD tactics so that  the WTF competition habit would not be exclusive and difficult to adjust for SD. 

Seems you guys may agree more than you disagree.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 6, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> They are usualy referred to as the loser.  (Not counting when they are out range. )


Optionally, Prince Naseem.


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## mango.man (Dec 6, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Optionally, Prince Naseem.



Hmm, did he pick up that silly hip motion from Gel or did she pick it up from the prince?  Does she still do that like she used to when she was fighting 10-13?


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## Kframe (Dec 6, 2012)

I guess i should be specific.  I feel that, with your hands way down at your hips, it would take to long to effect a defense. You can only evade, so much, sometimes you have to use a deflection.(talking punches and other hand techs) Seeing that im overweight(still working on that, i lost 120lbs got 100lbs to go) i find that i can only evade so much, and that i have to rely on deflections and parries alot more. Hence why i have such a issue with hands at my hips. 

ATC When you talk about your TKD stance, do you mean olympic or just the general TKD fight stance? I have seen versions of the TKD fight stance(non olympic) that look very karate'ish.  When startled which stance do you normal occupy?  

Thanks for the look up of muscle memory, i didnt know that it was that complex.  

My father weighed in on this as well. He sees nothing wrong with WTF style competition. He disagrees with people who only train the sport side and not the SD side, seeing as he did both and was very sucsessfull SD wise.  This muddies the water for me to no end.  

Can anyone point to any videos of WTF/kkw TKD self defense techniques(cant spell the Korean name) and 1 step and you know non sport stuff, while using the no hands guard or some version of a low guard?


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## Gorilla (Dec 6, 2012)

K- frame...you don't use a low guard in self defense!  

Some use it in competition!

We use a modified Karate guard in Tkd comp...something we developed from Shotokan....


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## Gorilla (Dec 6, 2012)

mango.man said:


> Hmm, did he pick up that silly hip motion from Gel or did she pick it up from the prince?  Does she still do that like she used to when she was fighting 10-13?



Garr has taken that out of her....she has learned allot at 14/17...her first year was brutal for her...but she never quit..she has had some success at Nationals but has fallen short at team trials!

Still a scrapper!


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## Gorilla (Dec 6, 2012)

Master Weiss...my kids love martial arts they are fascinated by every aspect....my son has been doing it for 11 years....he has a very open mind he can understand different tech and strategy....he is focused on the sport side right now but does work on SD...the best evidence of this is after on two years of training in Karate ...he made the JR National team aa a Black Belt...that is very quick transition...

We are going to spar with a ITF Group in Las Vegas should be fun!

I am thinking that our TKD Karate mix might do well....we don't know the rules so it should be a learning experience...going in with a humble attitude hoping to learn some thing and make new friends...


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## SPX (Dec 7, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I am thinking that our TKD Karate mix might do well....we don't know the rules so it should be a learning experience...going in with a humble attitude hoping to learn some thing and make new friends...



You really don't know the rules?

Just know that it's continuous (usually two two-minute rounds) with punches to the head allowed and kicks to the body and head allowed.


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## Gorilla (Dec 7, 2012)

Never done ITF!!


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 7, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Never done ITF!!



You ought to try it. It's just like WTF. But without hogu. And with punches.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 7, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> We are going to spar with a ITF Group in Las Vegas should be fun!
> QUOTE]
> 
> Who is the head instructor ? I wonder if I know him.


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## SPX (Dec 7, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> You ought to try it. It's just like WTF. But without hogu. And with punches.



And not full contact.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 7, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> You ought to try it. It's just like WTF. But without hogu. And with punches.





SPX said:


> And not full contact.



If you say so. My earliest training was ITF, and despite the supposition that sparring was not full contact, I can say categorically that it wasn't exactly light contact either. Much like my currrent (Moo Duk Kwan) school, contact levels (for advanced and adult students) was left up to the fighters. 
That was, admittedly, quite a while before you were born, so it's certainly possible that things have changed. But I am pretty sure (perhaps Master Weiss will correct me if I'm wrong) that ITF sparring is still not tappy tappy.


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## Gorilla (Dec 7, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Gorilla said:
> 
> 
> > We are going to spar with a ITF Group in Las Vegas should be fun!
> ...


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## Gorilla (Dec 8, 2012)

http://www.lvtkd.com/pictures/index.html

Thisbis the school should be interesting...


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## SPX (Dec 8, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you say so. My earliest training was ITF, and despite the supposition that sparring was not full contact, I can say categorically that it wasn't exactly light contact either. Much like my currrent (Moo Duk Kwan) school, contact levels (for advanced and adult students) was left up to the fighters.
> That was, admittedly, quite a while before you were born, so it's certainly possible that things have changed. But I am pretty sure (perhaps Master Weiss will correct me if I'm wrong) that ITF sparring is still not tappy tappy.



My most recent interaction with ITF TKD was a couple of years ago when I was involved with a school for about 4 months.  It wasn't a great experience, but in that time I did extensively research the sparring situation.

As it sounds like you know, on paper at least, ITF TKD is definitely NOT full contact.  It is officially described as "semi-contact."  The question then is what does that mean.

For colored belts, it basically means light contact.  The contact level that is allowed can vary depending on the officials, but I remember a few colored belt students talking about tournaments in which they were either disqualified or warned harshly about hitting too hard.

For the dan ranks, it depends on the tournament.  My instructor at the time told a story of a fellow instructor who was disqualified from a tournament because, despite the fact that he pulled off a very nice jump spinning kick that landed perfectly, he was disqualified because he put too much power into it.  On the other hand, I have heard of tournaments at the dan ranks that are basically full contact.  But even then, at least according to the rulebook, knockout is NOT a way to win.


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## SPX (Dec 8, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> That was, admittedly, quite a while before you were born.



Have I stated my age?  Or is it posted somewhere?


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 8, 2012)

I'm pretty sure you have, but I could be confusing you with someone else. I don't know that you've explicitly stated your age, but my (admittedly fuzzy) recollection includes mention of children, with the impression that they're fairly young, and my impression is that you're in your 30's. Is that reasonably accurate?
So, simply put: my first lesson was in 1968. My last involvement with the ITF would have been in 1984 or 1985, well before the General passed away and the ITF splintered.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 8, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you say so. My earliest training was ITF, and despite the supposition that sparring was not full contact, I can say categorically that it wasn't exactly light contact either. Much like my currrent (Moo Duk Kwan) school, contact levels (for advanced and adult students) was left up to the fighters.
> That was, admittedly, quite a while before you were born, so it's certainly possible that things have changed. But I am pretty sure (perhaps Master Weiss will correct me if I'm wrong) that ITF sparring is still not tappy tappy.



The level of contact will  vary greatly with the school and competition level.  At a small community school it may be relatively light as well as at a small local tournament. National competitions will be heavier and International competitions seems often just sort of Full contact, whatever that means.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 8, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Earl Weiss said:
> 
> 
> > GM Bosse
> ...


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## SPX (Dec 8, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm pretty sure you have, but I could be confusing you with someone else. I don't know that you've explicitly stated your age, but my (admittedly fuzzy) recollection includes mention of children, with the impression that they're fairly young, and my impression is that you're in your 30's. Is that reasonably accurate?
> So, simply put: my first lesson was in 1968. My last involvement with the ITF would have been in 1984 or 1985, well before the General passed away and the ITF splintered.



Well you're half-way accurate.  I am in my very early 30s.  No kids, though.  And there probably won't be any any time soon.  Not ready for all of that.

I'm surprised to see that you're in your 50s.  Based upon your breaking video that you posted I'd have put you at about 45.  So hey, at least you age well!


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 8, 2012)

SPX said:


> Well you're half-way accurate.  I am in my very early 30s.  No kids, though.  And there probably won't be any any time soon.  Not ready for all of that.



When I'm relying strictly on memory and impressions garnered from reading posts here, I'll be happy with half-way. 




SPX said:


> I'm surprised to see that you're in your 50s.  Based upon your breaking video that you posted I'd have put you at about 45.  So hey, at least you age well!



I eat a lot of preservatives.... :rofl:


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## ATC (Dec 8, 2012)

I started with an ITF school and also did Tang Soo Do as well in the past. When I competed while practicing ITF (In my teens) It was medium contact with feather touch to the head. I got DQ'd once for doing a back kick to hard. The one thing that I do miss is doing back fist and ridge hands to the head. But the competitions are not full contact, and that was over 25 years and more ago. Now I have seen some International competitions and they seemed to be full contact as I have seen KO's. But in the US with kids I would pretty much bet on it being light to medium contact with touch to the head and face. Good luck to Kym and Charlie I am sure they will do well.


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## Gorilla (Dec 9, 2012)

ATC said:


> I started with an ITF school and also did Tang Soo Do as well in the past. When I competed while practicing ITF (In my teens) It was medium contact with feather touch to the head. I got DQ'd once for doing a back kick to hard. The one thing that I do miss is doing back fist and ridge hands to the head. But the competitions are not full contact, and that was over 25 years and more ago. Now I have seen some International competitions and they seemed to be full contact as I have seen KO's. But in the US with kids I would pretty much bet on it being light to medium contact with touch to the head and face. Good luck to Kym and Charlie I am sure they will do well.



Just some sparing always looking for sparing partners they are scarce for us in Las Vegas...hopefully they have some people who like to fight!


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