# When do you get promoted?



## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 2, 2007)

I keep hearing about people being promoted right at their gup tests, and that confuses me, since my school makes you wait a few weeks before you even find out if you _passed_ or not, and then you get promoted, in class for gup ranks or at a special ceremony at the main school for black belt ranks. 

How common is the practice of promotion right at the test? I'd just like to know. It seems odd to me, of course, but that's just my background speaking.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 2, 2007)

In my experience through the years it is more common to be awarded your rank right at the test if you passed.  The wait a few weeks to see if you have passed came about as a business tactic to keep students around if I am correct.  Sometimes right after a test and promotion students need a break and the waiting period attempts to curb this.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 2, 2007)

We promote immediately after our test.  Generally the belt is awarded at the testing.


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## agemechanic03 (Jun 2, 2007)

As for when I did Wado Ryu and Tae Kwon Do, I recieved my rank at the next class. Now for my studies now in Tang Soo Do, I'm not really sure. I am still a white belt but I know 6 different forms...The first 4, Chil Sung Il Ro, and Youk Ro and have yet to test. MBuzzy will be able to tell you more on how we do it here in Korea since he has been thru Master Choe's tests.


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## agemechanic03 (Jun 2, 2007)

Okay...so he beat me before I replied...there you go.


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## stone_dragone (Jun 2, 2007)

The only time I have been promoted at a different event days after the test was with the ATA (American Taekwondo Association).  All of my other schools present the belts to those who passed immediately following testing, while still sweaty.


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## Kacey (Jun 2, 2007)

It depends on what you mean by "promoted".  The last time I tested (for IV Dan, a couple of years ago), I was told by the testing instructor after the testing that I had passed, and my instructor awarded me my belt at the seminar that followed the testing - but the certificate was presented at the next event (a tournament, in this case), as is our tradition with black belt certificates, referee certifications, and similar items, so that the members of our association know who is who and what they've earned.

Gup certificates and belts are generally awarded at the next class after testing.


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## fnorfurfoot (Jun 2, 2007)

When I test my students, I promote them at the end of the test.  When I was studying GoJu, the instructor ran private tests during the course of a month and then had a promotion ceremony for all of the students that tested at the end of the month.  What I thought was kind of strange was that if you did not attend the ceremony, you did not recieve your rank until the next testing cycle came around.  And then, only if you attended that promotion ceremony.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 2, 2007)

Thanks for the replies. For us, gup belts usually get promoted a few weeks after the test. There's a set class for promotions, but if they don't come they get promoted the next time they do. It's starting at cho dan that it takes forever to know if you even passed. 

The philosophy is one of patience. So many people come to their black belt test, do their thing, and expect to walk away from TSD as soon as they're promoted. The wait is to remind them that TSD is not a hobby, not a sport, but a way of life. Promotion doesn't mean so much as continued improvement and dedication to training. It's like Miyagi-sensei said: "Karate here (points to head), karate here (points to heart). Karate never here (puts hands on belt)."

It's a good philosophy to have, especially at my rank, since I don't even test for sam dan for another two years (I got my e dan rank last year in April). Then, if I pass my sam dan test, I go another four years before I test for sa dan. It's all about dedication.


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## mjd (Jun 3, 2007)

For gups I promote at the next class, present the belt, the certificate comes later.

For black belts it's a little different

    take pre-test - informed if passed several weeks later if passed
    actual test - informed verbal over next few weeks, belt rank at next     big event, received certificate 6 months at next big event.


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## jks9199 (Jun 3, 2007)

mjd said:


> For gups I promote at the next class, present the belt, the certificate comes later.
> 
> For black belts it's a little different
> 
> ...


I'm curious...  Why all of the delay and stalling?

You pretest a candidate; that I can understand.  You want to be sure that they're ready for the test.  But why wait several weeks to inform them whether you feel they're ready or not?  If they were to fail -- wouldn't it be hard to work with them to help them get ready if they didn't know they failed?

OK... move past that.  You do the formal black belt testing, and sometime a couple of weeks later, you let them know they passed.  Again -- why the delay?  I can understand it if, for example, graders are still reading candidate's reports/essays, as a required in some schools, but otherwise, it just seems like stalling and game playing to me.

I can understand making a big to-do over the promotions at the next event, sort of, but I think that it's a little frustrating if you know you've passed, but it's going to be 3 months till the next event, so you're not "promoted" yet...  And then you have to wait yet again for the certificate?

It's your school; they're your students.  Understand, I'm not suggesting that what you're doing is wrong, or inferior, or anything else along those lines.  I just get frustrated at what seems to me to be stalls and game playing.  I won't put someone up for black belt (or any other rank) unless I'm confident they'll pass and reflect well on me.  You pass -- I want you to know as soon as possible, and then to be promoted as soon as possible, as well.  I mean -- what rank is a person who's passed their black belt test, but hasn't been formally promoted yet?  Or been awarded the belt -- but not the certificate?


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 3, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I'm curious...  Why all of the delay and stalling?
> 
> You pretest a candidate; that I can understand.  You want to be sure that they're ready for the test.  But why wait several weeks to inform them whether you feel they're ready or not?  If they were to fail -- wouldn't it be hard to work with them to help them get ready if they didn't know they failed?



The ITF actually has 2 pretests, 6 months apart, before the black belt test, 6 months later. Promotions for those are like gup tests; you find out in a couple of classes. And even so, students should always be training harder, regardless of whether or not they think they've passed a test.


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## foggymorning162 (Jun 5, 2007)

We recieve our new rank at the end of our "grading" we have already been "tested" in class if your not ready your asked not to attend. The decision of your rank has already been made, not to say that it can't change if your instructor or the Grand Master feels you either deserve better or don't deserve what you would have gotten but as a rule they already know what their giving you. When you grade for black you have to be accepted by the board of Master Belts then you pregrade at a gup grading after which your told when you will grade for black it might be at the next BB grading or it might not.


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## mjd (Jun 8, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I'm curious... Why all of the delay and stalling?


 
I am a firm believer in tradition, that's the way it was done to me by my instructor, and really I never questioned it, just continue doing it the same way.

I do not promote black belts, that is done by the Region Director Master Rank and other region Masters of my org, I am only a 3rd dan.

the belt; org rules are - has to be done at a major public event either in the local studio or at a region event, this is to publicly demonstrate recogition of the person receiving the rank and their accomplishment.

the certificate: org rules are same thing as the belt with generally presented by the GM of our org, makes it special.

There is no games being played, it is the way it is done and I think it is a good thing to make a big accomplishement like passing a black belt test a big important event for the person, I like the idea that our GM is so aproachable and personnal with his black belts. It's worth the wait.


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## foggymorning162 (Jun 9, 2007)

I couldn't edit my last post so I'll have to add to it here. I forgot about the writen test which you take about half way through the required year at aprentice black. I was reminded of this only because I took mine on Thursday. Got em all right WOOHOO:uhyeah:


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## JWLuiza (Jun 9, 2007)

All of our tests are done with the panel and family present, so promotions are same night.  The only delay we have is for the summer camp black-belt pre-test, which is just the next morning at breakfast.


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## DArnold (Jul 24, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I'm curious... Why all of the delay and stalling?
> 
> You pretest a candidate; that I can understand. You want to be sure that they're ready for the test. But why wait several weeks to inform them whether you feel they're ready or not? If they were to fail -- wouldn't it be hard to work with them to help them get ready if they didn't know they failed?
> 
> ...


 
For those from the instant gratification generation:
One is a test and one is a promotion.
They are not the same thing.
One does not necessarly guarentee the other.

I do not have to test someone to promote them.
I do not have to promote someone because they have tested.

Rank is not a right (The lord giveth and the lord taketh away)
When you take a test in school you don't have to know if you passed right then! (And sometimes logistics prevent this)

What is your rush?
I have done and seen both done.

I found that if you promoted on the same day students felt that it was their right and it had to be done this way, which is a load of crap.
So I vary what I do.
It is the instructors perogitive, not the students right.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 24, 2007)

@DArnold: TANG SOO!


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## Lynne (Jul 28, 2007)

DArnold said:


> For those from the instant gratification generation:
> One is a test and one is a promotion.
> They are not the same thing.
> One does not necessarly guarentee the other.
> ...


That's interesting, DArnold, that you do not have to test someone in order to promote them or vice-versa.

In our school, gups are tested and promoted the same day.  Master ties our new belt around us.

Orange belt (8th gup) up, they have spotlights and midterms that they must pass in order to test though, aka, if a student fails a spotlight, they are delayed testing a month.

Also, we belong to the American Tang Soo Do Association and I believe there are testing guidelines, at least to some degree.

Well, I was almost sick when I went into my 9th gup test.  I knew my material but had no idea how I did (hard to be objective).  I was thrilled that I'd passed.  And I was happy to be promoted.  I don't think of this as some sort of right, but I know what you mean.


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## jks9199 (Jul 28, 2007)

DArnold said:


> > Originally Posted by *jks9199*
> >
> >
> > _I'm curious... Why all of the delay and stalling?
> ...


 
I'd like to know how you made some of the leaps from my posts on this topic.  I've stated several times that I rarely formally test students; there is a formal black belt testing within my system.  I don't see a formal test as an essential thing.  Nor did I ever say anything amounting to the simple fact that someone tested entitles them to promotion; any test should be subject to the possibility of failure, or it's not a test.  Nor is it a matter of rushing; to me it's a matter of fairness.  Once someone's been tested, they deserve to know one way or the other.  And once it's done -- it should be, in my opinion, done.  Not stretched out over time.  You can do a formal recognition later.  You can induct people into associations later.  But once the test is over, and the person is judged -- I think they simply deserve to know that they passed, and to receive their ranking very soon thereafter, like the next formal class.  Show me what's gained by testing someone, but not telling them whether they've passed for several weeks after the results are known.

And, if a person has passed, and been promoted, stretching out the process of awarding them their certificates or badges or signs of rank over a year just seems to me to be playing games.  You get them to stick around for a year; if they're not going to stay, they'll be gone at the end of that year anyway.  If they are, they'll stay anyway.  What's the benefit of getting someone to stay a little longer who's going to leave anyway?  At best, you might keep a few who would have left, but more will put that begrudged year in, and walk away pissed off.

When I got my first level black belt, we were testing for black belt twice a year.  I knew at the end of the day I tested that I'd passed.  I received my black belt at the next class, from my teacher.  I had to wait 6 months to the next formal induction for that, and that's when I received my certificate, because that's when they were signed and presented.  Had I tested 6 months later -- I would have been promoted that same weekend.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 30, 2007)

I still defend making students wait before they know, not only for the purely logistical reasons of needing to total up scores for four or fivescore people, usually of different ranks (add sending notice to all their respective schools for C.S. Kim black belt tests), but also because of something I may or may have not said earlier: you don't want the students to start taking it easy. If I'm told right there and then that I passed, my next class is going to be me taking it easy because I know that's one hurdle gone, and my rank is secure, even if I haven't been promoted yet. If I'm told I failed, then I begin to lose hope in myself and also start taking it easy. But if I _don't know_, I'll work just as hard as always, or maybe even extra hard, in the hopes that all I did at the test was good enough. There's nothing like uncertainty to make you work harder preventively.


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## DArnold (Aug 5, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I'd like to know how you made some of the leaps from my posts on this topic. I've stated several times that I rarely formally test students; there is a formal black belt testing within my system. I don't see a formal test as an essential thing. Nor did I ever say anything amounting to the simple fact that someone tested entitles them to promotion; any test should be subject to the possibility of failure, or it's not a test. Nor is it a matter of rushing; to me it's a matter of fairness. Once someone's been tested, they deserve to know one way or the other. And once it's done -- it should be, in my opinion, done. Not stretched out over time. You can do a formal recognition later. You can induct people into associations later. But once the test is over, and the person is judged -- I think they simply deserve to know that they passed, and to receive their ranking very soon thereafter, like the next formal class. Show me what's gained by testing someone, but not telling them whether they've passed for several weeks after the results are known.
> 
> And, if a person has passed, and been promoted, stretching out the process of awarding them their certificates or badges or signs of rank over a year just seems to me to be playing games. You get them to stick around for a year; if they're not going to stay, they'll be gone at the end of that year anyway. If they are, they'll stay anyway. What's the benefit of getting someone to stay a little longer who's going to leave anyway? At best, you might keep a few who would have left, but more will put that begrudged year in, and walk away pissed off.
> 
> When I got my first level black belt, we were testing for black belt twice a year. I knew at the end of the day I tested that I'd passed. I received my black belt at the next class, from my teacher. I had to wait 6 months to the next formal induction for that, and that's when I received my certificate, because that's when they were signed and presented. Had I tested 6 months later -- I would have been promoted that same weekend.


 
I don't teach from a students point of view.


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## DArnold (Aug 5, 2007)

Lynne said:


> That's interesting, DArnold, that you do not have to test someone in order to promote them or vice-versa.
> 
> In our school, gups are tested and promoted the same day. Master ties our new belt around us.
> 
> ...


 
Mostly students belive it is so because of the way you are raised.
But from my pont of view you could also say it is interesting that you would belive the other way.

Why? Because from a student point of view they think it is their right?
Because in some peoples mind they have this concept of "fair" These are all just things in your mind and not necessaraly the way it is, or needs to be.

Do some instructors abuse the system, sure, just as everything else can be abused. Do some organizations have guidelines, sure. But there are no god given rights to studetns that they must get their rank on the day of testing.

Just as I said before, testing and promotions are two seperate things and just because young instructors wish to teach from a students point of view does not make it the only way.

Once your finally realize that belt systems are only for junior gratification, that testing timelines are really random, that the only person that should matter to you is what your instructor thinks...

Then still I must ask why?


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