# Did you kick anything in your Shotokan or Goju Ryu kick training?



## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

I did Shotokan as a kid, never kicked anything. Actually visited that same place repeatedly and never saw any power training on targets then either. Did ITF TaeKwondo and we kicked and punch kicking shields from day one.

In fact, one of the things i requested to join was that we kicked things and not just air in my email to the school


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## Papageno (Aug 26, 2020)

We use mitts and punch bags in our training, but only occasionally.

I think the way we train differs from club to club. Sure, every Shotokan club use the same kicks, punches and blocks, but the Sensei decides what's right for his/her club.

When I started, many years ago, I was traiining in a club that produced great kata artists, but no fighters. We didn't train any kumite at all. So when I (after a 25 year pause) join my current club, kumite was a major part of the exercises. I'll never forget my first kumite session facing a 100 kg and 2 meters tall black belt! My entire body told me: RUN! I was terrified of kumite for about six months. Then I actually learned to enjoy this part of Karate. Still get my *** kicked though...

My point here is that no two Shotokan clubs are alike, so it's impossible to answer a question like "Do you do this and that in Shotokan" Karate is versatile, let's just enjoy!

Best of luck in your training,. however you choose to perform it.
/Papi


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## Headhunter (Aug 26, 2020)

Yep did it for a couple of months and did pad and bag work every class

Lol yeah because they’re going to  change their training because you “requested “ it. Man I can imagine what the instructor must’ve thought reading that


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## drop bear (Aug 26, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Yep did it for a couple of months and did pad and bag work every class
> 
> Lol yeah because they’re going to  change their training because you “requested “ it. Man I can imagine what the instructor must’ve thought reading that



Kicking something is not that big an ask in a martial arts class.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 26, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Yep did it for a couple of months and did pad and bag work every class
> 
> Lol yeah because they’re going to  change their training because you “requested “ it. Man I can imagine what the instructor must’ve thought reading that


My guess is that he miswrote what he typed here. More of stating/mentioning what he's looking for in a school, with one of the things being actually kicking things. Not so much expecting them to change how they do things to get a prospective student. 

And like @drop bear said, unless it's a style without kicks, that really isn't a crazy request to have. 

Also not as a prospective student, but I've absolutely requested we do some stuff we didn't previously do and the instructors listened.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2020)

I didn’t, but my foray into Shotokan was pretty brief. A student I had for 3 years was former Shotokan (in Germany), and they did - including each other.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Yep did it for a couple of months and did pad and bag work every class
> 
> t



No you didn't. You just make things up.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> My guess is that he miswrote what he typed here. More of stating/mentioning what he's looking for in a school, with one of the things being actually kicking things. Not so much expecting them to change how they do things to get a prospective student.
> 
> And like @drop bear said, unless it's a style without kicks, that really isn't a crazy request to have.
> 
> Also not as a prospective student, but I've absolutely requested we do some stuff we didn't previously do and the instructors listened.



I did not miswrite. I asked for something and if it wasn't there, I wasn't going to join.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Kicking something is not that big an ask in a martial arts class.



It might be if you do Shotokan, believe it or not.


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## Headhunter (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No you didn't. You just make things up.


No I don’t it’s true don’t believe me or not I really don’t care you asked a question I answered


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> And like @drop bear said, unless it's a style without kicks, that really isn't a crazy request to have.
> .



Hah, pay close attention then to the upcoming replies


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No you didn't. You just make things up.


Because you were there?


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

The ones I've asked reply either: "no", "yeah this monday we did (aka rarely)", "if somebody brings it in we might do it here and there", etc.

Now that is quite remarkable. I don't know of any TaeKwondo dojang that does not use it at least twice a week.. maybe pass a day or two. However, some of the Olympic ones may mostly use floppy pads, which is like kicking a feather, won't do anything for power training, only precision. 

Our school did not use floppy pads, thankfully.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Hah, pay close attention then to the upcoming replies


You’ve already seen what hasn’t been posted?


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You’ve already seen what hasn’t been posted?



I have a hunch..... but only one way to find out..


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I have a hunch..... but only one way to find out..


You asked a question. You’ve already refused to accept one answer that didn’t match your narrative. Not sure what you hope to gain here


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I did not miswrite. I asked for something and if it wasn't there, I wasn't going to join.


Yeah that's what I'm saying. You asked if they had it and stated you would join. You didn't tell them they had to include it (just that it had to be there for you to join).


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You asked a question. You’ve already refused to accept one answer that didn’t match your narrative. Not sure what you hope to gain here



Yeah because if you pay close attention to his posting history, he is tracking me on the forum and writing contrarian posts whenever he can.


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## Headhunter (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> The ones I've asked reply either: "no", "yeah this monday we did (aka rarely)", "if somebody brings it in we might do it here and there", etc.
> 
> Now that is quite remarkable. I don't know of any TaeKwondo dojang that does not use it at least twice a week.. maybe pass a day or two. However, some of the Olympic ones may mostly use floppy pads, which is like kicking a feather, won't do anything for power training, only precision.
> 
> Our school did not use floppy pads, thankfully.


You must’ve missed my answer that said we did it every class....oh no wait you already said I made it up just because it doesn’t fit your fantasies.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yeah that's what I'm saying. You asked if they had it and stated you would join. You didn't tell them they had to include it (just that it had to be there for you to join).



And I think request is an okey word for that. Request and demand are not synonymous. So not sure I miswrote anything...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And I think request is an okey word for that. Request and demand are not synonymous. So not sure I miswrote anything...


Well, we misread then. As long as it's clear to everyone now it doesn't really matter.


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## Headhunter (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yeah because if you pay close attention to his posting history, he is tracking me on the forum and writing contrarian posts whenever he can.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Headhunter (Aug 26, 2020)

Here you go. I wonder what excuses you’ll make to dismiss you’ve been proven wrong yet again


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yeah because if you pay close attention to his posting history, he is tracking me on the forum and writing contrarian posts whenever he can.


He probably just replies to active threads. I doubt his reading habits center around you.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 26, 2020)

I would question any dojo that did not have a heavy kicking bag.  I don't believe it is possible to develop effective kicks or punches, or any other strikes, without experiencing impact.  And it's not just about gaining power and strength in the moves (although these are very important.) 

There are other benefits as well.  Number two is balance and position after impact.  If good form is not present, meeting a resisting object can throw you off balance as it sends a shock wave thru your body. 

Thirdly, having a realistic object to hit develops focus, physically and mentally (and spiritually as well.) 

Next, having a solid target teaches you gauge distance so you can develop a sense of the proper maia for the various strikes

Still another benefit is if your ankle or wrist is not angled or tightened properly, a heavy bag will quickly point that out.

All of the above are vitally important in karate.  And something else that's important - it's fun!  Hand held shields are better than nothing, but require a partner and must be held at specific angles for prearranged targets.  Hanging bags are best. 

A workout wasn't complete until the heavy canvas bag and makiwara (wrapped with coarse rope) had taken some skin off my knuckles.  Loved it!


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## Headhunter (Aug 26, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> He probably just replies to active threads. I doubt his reading habits center around you.


Lol far from it. I see a new thread I look at it and if I can answer it I answer it simple as that


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> He probably just replies to active threads. I doubt his reading habits center around you.



whether he does or not, he is not training anything. Trust me. I can spot them a mile away.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I would question any dojo that did not have a heavy kicking bag.  I don't believe it is possible to develop effective kicks or punches, or any other strikes, without experiencing impact.  And it's not just about gaining power and strength in the moves (although these are very important.)
> 
> There are other benefits as well.  Number two is balance and position after impact.  If good form is not present, meeting a resisting object can throw you off balance as it sends a shock wave thru your body.
> 
> ...



I agree but there are two points to consider here: A) the Makiwara is not exactly modern training equipment... B) it is of doubtful value to more advanced kicks. C) pads, and heavy bags are probably not the core of traditional Karate although there is footage of it being used.

A heavy bag is a good way to tear your knees up. Much better to kick medium soft kicking shields.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I agree but there are two points to consider here: A) the Makiwara is not exactly modern training equipment... B) it is of doubtful value to more advanced kicks. C) pads, and heavy bags are probably not the core of traditional Karate although there is footage of it being used.
> 
> A heavy bag is a good way to tear your knees up. Much better to kick medium soft kicking shields.


Heavy bag never tore up my knees.  Used one for years, 70+ pounds.


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## Headhunter (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> whether he does or not, he is not training anything. Trust me. I can spot them a mile away.


HAHAHA yeah no ones listening to you. I’m sure everyone on here has different opinions on me And that’s fine I care very little about what people think about me but I can guarantee no one on here will side with you on the fact that I don’t train anything


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## Headhunter (Aug 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Heavy bag never tore up my knees.  Used one for years, 70+ pounds.


Stop lying you’ve obviously had 100 knee surgeries on each leg this year alone how dare you say otherwise


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Heavy bag never tore up my knees.  Used one for years, 70+ pounds.



And there are people who smoked who never got lung cancer.


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## wab25 (Aug 26, 2020)

I have been training Shotokan Karate for 6 or 7  years now... We kick heavy bags. Not every class, but a lot. We also kick focus mitts, shields, and each other. Sometimes we kick each other, while one guy is just taking it... learning to take a kick, while the other guy is working on accuracy. Other times we kick each other while sparring. We kick each other in those useless one steps... on both sides. If you don't block or get offline, you get kicked, for real. If you do block, you are blocking a real kick... and many times we return a real kick after the block, as the counter attack. (one that makes contact, according to the experience of the guy getting kicked) We have cross trained with many other local dojos, and all the ones we cross train with, kick things quite a bit too. Just my experience...


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

wab25 said:


> I have been training Shotokan Karate for 6 or 7  years now... We kick heavy bags. Not every class, but a lot. We also kick focus mitts, shields, and each other. Sometimes we kick each other, while one guy is just taking it... learning to take a kick, while the other guy is working on accuracy. Other times we kick each other while sparring. We kick each other in those useless one steps... on both sides. If you don't block or get offline, you get kicked, for real. If you do block, you are blocking a real kick... and many times we return a real kick after the block, as the counter attack. (one that makes contact, according to the experience of the guy getting kicked) We have cross trained with many other local dojos, and all the ones we cross train with, kick things quite a bit too. Just my experience...



JKA? What country?


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## Headhunter (Aug 26, 2020)

wab25 said:


> I have been training Shotokan Karate for 6 or 7  years now... We kick heavy bags. Not every class, but a lot. We also kick focus mitts, shields, and each other. Sometimes we kick each other, while one guy is just taking it... learning to take a kick, while the other guy is working on accuracy. Other times we kick each other while sparring. We kick each other in those useless one steps... on both sides. If you don't block or get offline, you get kicked, for real. If you do block, you are blocking a real kick... and many times we return a real kick after the block, as the counter attack. (one that makes contact, according to the experience of the guy getting kicked) We have cross trained with many other local dojos, and all the ones we cross train with, kick things quite a bit too. Just my experience...


Pretty much mine to


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 26, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I would question any dojo that did not have a heavy kicking bag.


I would question any individual that did not have a heavy kicking bag at home. The heavy bag training is part of the home work.

A: My school doesn't spar enough.
B: You should form a fighting club yourself.

A: My school doesn't train enough on the heavy bag.
B: You should train heavy bag at home.

One should not allow his MA school to restrict his personal training.

My MA school didn't teach me the knife throwing skill. I developed my knife throwing skill all by myself.


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## Danny T (Aug 26, 2020)

I trained Shotokan decades ago in the 60's. My instructor has us kicking football blocking shields and each other...a lot.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Please name organization too. There’s American proliferation of Karate that no doubt employ lots of kicking tools. It's the Japanese Karate association in particular that I question based on my observations


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I would question any individual that did not have a heavy kicking bag at home. The heavy bag training is part of the home work.
> 
> A: My school doesn't spar enough.
> B: You should form a fighting club yourself.
> ...



If there was a face slap to that quote, I would use it.


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## Buka (Aug 26, 2020)

There's really not any true or false answer here.

For instance, Joe Lewis only kicked two things, people and heavy bags, never air.
Bill Wallace only kicked two things, people and air, never heavy bags.

Both had remarkable skill and great careers.

As for Shotokan, I can only speak of the East Coast. Shotokan fighters back there in the seventies, eighties nineties and two thousands - were just plain nasty to fight. I always used to describe fighting them as - "they will punch a whole right through your f'n body, just to give the finger to the guy behind you."

As for Goju, I originally trained Greek Gojo Ryu. It was a hard fighting school. They kicked bags hard, but I wasn't there long enough to know how often.

Personally, my dojo had ten to twenty heavy bags - depending on how often we broke them. Even had a couple on elevator cable, with rollers atop the bag, that went between the I-beams. That way you could drive them back with hard combos.

I loved bag work. I became a wholesaler so I could get them fairly inexpensive. I preferred TufWare leather bags. Don't know if they're still quality or not, haven't bought one in quite a while.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> There's really not any true or false answer here.
> 
> For instance, Joe Lewis only kicked two things, people and heavy bags, never air.
> Bill Wallace only kicked two things, people and air, never heavy bags.
> ...



Neither one of those guys did Shotokan or Goju Ryu


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## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And there are people who smoked who never got lung cancer.


This is true.  I can only speak to my own experience and I don’t pretend to speak for others.  But i’e never had any indication that the heavy bag was damaging my knees, in 36 years of martial training in eight different schools (at various times), Ive never known anyone to say that happened to them, and I’ve never heard it said that this was a possible risk to look out for.  

So I dunno.  I’m skeptical of your claim.  But that’s just my feeling, based on my experience.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> As for Shotokan, I can only speak of the East Coast. Shotokan fighters back there in the seventies, eighties nineties and two thousands - were just plain nasty to fight. I always used to describe fighting them as - "they will punch a whole right through your f'n body, just to give the finger to the guy behind you."
> 
> .



Really? Can you name an elite Shotokan fighter in Kickboxing, like ever, who used Shotokan as his base? I know people who did it growing up and then moved over to Kickboxing and showed little to no traces of Shotokan


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> This is true.  I can only speak to my own experience and I don’t pretend to speak for others.  But i’e never had any indication that the heavy bag was damaging my knees, in 36 years of martial training in eight different schools (at various times), Ive never known anyone to say that happened to them, and I’ve never heard it said that this was a possible risk to look out for.
> 
> So I dunno.  I’m skeptical of your claim.  But that’s just my feeling, based on my experience.



People are ignorant. Take a guess why it's bad long-term for the knees kicking a hard, heavy bag. This isn't rocket science.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Please name organization too. There’s American proliferation of Karate that no doubt employ lots of kicking tools. It's the Japanese Karate association in particular that I question based on my observations


Ah.  Moving the goalposts...


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## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> People are ignorant. Take a guess why it's bad long-term for the knees kicking a hard, heavy bag. This isn't rocket science.


You are right:  some people like to put their ignorance on display.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Neither one of those guys did Shotokan or Goju Ryu


I think you missed his point.  Maybe @Buka will clarify it for you.  If he is willing to suffer you.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I think you missed his point.  Maybe @Buka will clarify it for you.  If he is willing to suffer you.



He mentioned two Karatekas turned Kickboxers. Who is missing the point? 

Again, can the Kung Fu practioners stop diluting my threads? I don't care what you guys do. If I have a question about Kung Fu, then I'll ask it.


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## Buka (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Neither one of those guys did Shotokan or Goju Ryu



My point was to the thread title about "kicking anything.'


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## Buka (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Really? Can you name an elite Shotokan fighter in Kickboxing, like ever, who used Shotokan as his base? I know people who did it growing up and then moved over to Kickboxing and showed little to no traces of Shotokan



No, I can't. I never really followed who did what as their first art or arts.

Competitive fighting doesn't really work that way. When you kickbox, which I did - I also judged, reffed, cornered and trained fighters - you train specifically for a rule set first. Then, maybe, if you have the resources, for a particular opponent. 

Anybody, at least that I know of, if they're going to be kickboxing in competition, will spend a lot of time in a boxing gym if one is available to them. That doesn't make them a boxer, just someone who is smart enough to utilize resources that he has.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> No, I can't. I never really followed who did what as their first art or arts.
> 
> Competitive fighting doesn't really work that way. When you kickbox, which I did - I also judged, reffed, cornered and trained fighters - you train specifically for a rule set first. Then, maybe, if you have the resources, for a particular opponent.
> 
> Anybody, at least that I know of, if they're going to be kickboxing in competition, will spend a lot of time in a boxing gym if one is available to them. That doesn't make them a boxer, just someone who is smart enough to utilize resources that he has.



So who are these bad-asses that you are talking about? Joe Lewis picked a Shotokan Karateka for his first KB fight specifically because Shotokan stylist are so arrogant yet won't fight, but he found one who was willing to put it on the line and it lasted about as long as predicted.


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## Buka (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> People are ignorant.



I agree.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

I don't know if Bob Wall did Shotokan but he purportedly liked full contact. I see no record of his in FC.... I guess he ventured into movies instead. 

Chuck Norris stayed away from FC contact as well.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> I agree.



Do you think kicking a door is good for your knees? If you don't think that, then you don't think it's good to kick a heavy bag for your knees either.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> He mentioned two Karatekas turned Kickboxers. Who is missing the point?
> 
> Again, can the Kung Fu practioners stop diluting my threads? I don't care what you guys do. If I have a question about Kung Fu, then I'll ask it.


Just contributing to the discussion.  As anyone can do in any thread here in the forums.  Anyone.  Any thread.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Just contributing to the discussion.  As anyone can do in any thread here in the forums.  Anyone.  Any thread.



by insulting both your own intelligence and mine arguing that there are no health aspects of KICKING a heavy bag?

Again, how do your knees feel when there's resistance? Not so good, huh? How about hard resistance? Not so good either? Lets make that hard *and* heavy and suddenly it's perfectly healthy.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 26, 2020)

I'm confused- is the argument that kicking a heavy bag is bad for the knees, or that kneeing a heavy bag is bad for the knees? I assumed the later, but if so this is the first time I've heard someone refer to kneeing as being a kick (although I guess it's technically accurate).


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm confused- is the argument that kicking a heavy bag is bad for the knees,.



Yes, spectacularly bad.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Again, can the Kung Fu practioners stop diluting my threads? I don't care what you guys do. If I have a question about Kung Fu, then I'll ask it.





Flying Crane said:


> Just contributing to the discussion.  As anyone can do in any thread here in the forums.  Anyone.  Any thread.


Flying Crane, You are not even a Karate guy (I had 3 months in Karate). Nobody care about your opinions. Why are you still hanging around here?


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I agree but there are two points to consider here: A) the Makiwara is not exactly modern training equipment... B) it is of doubtful value to more advanced kicks. C) pads, and heavy bags are probably not the core of traditional Karate although there is footage of it being used.
> 
> A heavy bag is a good way to tear your knees up. Much better to kick medium soft kicking shields.



A little clarification on your three points:
A.  Makiwara is definitely old time equipment - doesn't mean its not effective for certain training.
B.  I only referenced the makiwara to punching.  But since you brought up kicks, there was a hanging, longer, makiwara, as well as the fixed kind, to practice  kicks on in the old time dojos.
C.  No training aid is the core of any martial art.  They are supplementary to developing effective fighting techniques.

Never saw anyone hurt their knees on a heavy bag.  Maybe they were doing a particular kick not condusive to heavy impact, or they just were doing their kick with bad form.


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## Acronym (Aug 26, 2020)

[



isshinryuronin said:


> A little clarification on your three points:
> A.  Makiwara is definitely old time equipment - doesn't mean its not effective for certain training.
> B.  I only referenced the makiwara to punching.  But since you brought up kicks, there was a hanging, longer, makiwara, as well as the fixed kind, to practice  kicks on in the old time dojos.
> C.  No training aid is the core of any martial art.  They are supplementary to developing effective fighting techniques.



My point about the makiwara is that it's probably not as wide spread as it once was, and it's certainly not something you do from the get-go even if it is..


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## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> by insulting both your own intelligence and mine arguing that there are no health aspects of KICKING a heavy bag?
> 
> Again, how do your knees feel when there's resistance? Not so good, huh? How about hard resistance? Not so good either? Lets make that hard *and* heavy and suddenly it's perfectly healthy.


As Ive said, my knees are fine.  Do you have reason to believe I am lying?  Do you know my knees better than I do?

Maybe it’s just your knees that can’t take it.  I dunno.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Flying Crane, You are not even a Karate guy (I had 3 months in Karate). Nobody care about your opinions. Why are you still hanging around here?


I’m just trying to harvest converts.


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## Headhunter (Aug 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Ah.  Moving the goalposts...


It’s hilarious isn’t it....gets proven wrong still tries to prove he’s right


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## Headhunter (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> So who are these bad-asses that you are talking about? Joe Lewis picked a Shotokan Karateka for his first KB fight specifically because Shotokan stylist are so arrogant yet won't fight, but he found one who was willing to put it on the line and it lasted about as long as predicted.


Lol you calling anyone arrogant is hilarious


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## Headhunter (Aug 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> As Ive said, my knees are fine.  Do you have reason to believe I am lying?  Do you know my knees better than I do?
> 
> Maybe it’s just your knees that can’t take it.  I dunno.


Yes you are. If you’re facts go against his opinions you are a liar oh and if you disagree with his nonsense you are also “tracking his posts”


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## Buka (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> So who are these bad-asses that you are talking about? Joe Lewis picked a Shotokan Karateka for his first KB fight specifically because Shotokan stylist are so arrogant yet won't fight, but he found one who was willing to put it on the line and it lasted about as long as predicted.



I believe Greg Baines was a Kenpo stylist, not a Shotokan stylist.


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## Headhunter (Aug 27, 2020)

Buka said:


> I believe Greg Baines was a Kenpo stylist, not a Shotokan stylist.


Don’t even bother, this guy doesn’t listen to anyone...if your experiences are different to his opinion he calls you a liar then changes the question


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## Headhunter (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> People are ignorant. Take a guess why it's bad long-term for the knees kicking a hard, heavy bag. This isn't rocket science.


What’s your evidence for this?....kicking the air is a lot dangerous for knees than kicking a bag. I’ve been around fighters and martial artists all my life and not once have I met anyone who’s injured themselves kicking a bag. One coach is 70 years old and trains every day on the bag and his knees are perfectly fine. So you make this ridiculous claim. Okay show us the evidence? And if you can’t or won’t that just proves you’re making stuff up


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## Headhunter (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> by insulting both your own intelligence and mine arguing that there are no health aspects of KICKING a heavy bag?
> 
> Again, how do your knees feel when there's resistance? Not so good, huh? How about hard resistance? Not so good either? Lets make that hard *and* heavy and suddenly it's perfectly healthy.


My knees feel perfectly fine....maybe you’re just bad at kicking or just can’t take it because no one else has ever said this....you’ve got people in Thailand kicking trees and are fine so kicking a bag isn’t going to do anything...again this is your claim...prove it


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I would question any dojo that did not have a heavy kicking bag.  I don't believe it is possible to develop effective kicks or punches, or any other strikes, without experiencing impact.  And it's not just about gaining power and strength in the moves (although these are very important.)
> 
> There are other benefits as well.  Number two is balance and position after impact.  If good form is not present, meeting a resisting object can throw you off balance as it sends a shock wave thru your body.
> 
> ...


I agree with your basic argument - I'd just point out there are other things that can be kicked with force. The heavy bag at my primary dojo got less use than it should, but we used kicking shields regularly. The bag is better in some ways.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> whether he does or not, he is not training anything. Trust me. I can spot them a mile away.


Blind, you are.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And there are people who smoked who never got lung cancer.


Okay, so where's your evidence that heavy bags are so dangerous to knees? Literally everyone I know who trains kicks has used them, and most haven't needed surgery.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I would question any individual that did not have a heavy kicking bag at home. The heavy bag training is part of the home work.
> 
> A: My school doesn't spar enough.
> B: You should form a fighting club yourself.
> ...


Then you question me. I've never had a heavy bag at home.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Neither one of those guys did Shotokan or Goju Ryu


Missed the point, you have.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> He mentioned two Karatekas turned Kickboxers. Who is missing the point?
> 
> Again, can the Kung Fu practioners stop diluting my threads? I don't care what you guys do. If I have a question about Kung Fu, then I'll ask it.


You do a fine job diluting your own threads.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> by insulting both your own intelligence and mine arguing that there are no health aspects of KICKING a heavy bag?
> 
> Again, how do your knees feel when there's resistance? Not so good, huh? How about hard resistance? Not so good either? Lets make that hard *and* heavy and suddenly it's perfectly healthy.


You're the one who has made unsubstantiated claims. Don't get mad at folks who dispute them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Flying Crane, You are not even a Karate guy (I had 3 months in Karate). Nobody care about your opinions. Why are you still hanging around here?


You and me, we have plenty of cred. I even have 3 months in actual Shotokan!


----------



## _Simon_ (Aug 27, 2020)

In Kyokushin (Goju/Shotokan mix and more) we kicked pleeeenty of things 

In Shotokan that I trained in at the end of last year, we kicked the heavy bag, and pads.

I'd say it depends on the club, even if you'd expect it to be a given that you'd surely kick something.


----------



## _Simon_ (Aug 27, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I would question any individual that did not have a heavy kicking bag at home. The heavy bag training is part of the home work.
> 
> A: My school doesn't spar enough.
> B: You should form a fighting club yourself.
> ...


That's a really interesting thought KFW 

I've wondered this, how much to expect of a school, how much of that is really important to work on in person at a school, and what can you really just work on at home (as a refining/practice exercise).

Not every school is going to be perfect and have everything you want to do, so I wonder to what degree we can fine tune certain things at home. I'd say the more vital core components of a system should be in the classes of course... but those supplemental exercises...

Bag/padwork is really good to get feedback on though, but it's also something you can simply work with at home to get the feel of impact.. hmmm!


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> That's a really interesting thought KFW
> 
> I've wondered this, how much to expect of a school, how much of that is really important to work on in person at a school, and what can you really just work on at home (as a refining/practice exercise).
> 
> ...



A kicking shield needs a holder though, so you need at the very least a partner at home.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> In Kyokushin (Goju/Shotokan mix and more) we kicked pleeeenty of things
> 
> In Shotokan that I trained in at the end of last year, we kicked the heavy bag, and pads.
> 
> I'd say it depends on the club, even if you'd expect it to be a given that you'd surely kick something.



Where did you take your Shotokan lessons? Heavy bag work has not been used by any club I know of here in Sweden. No heavy bag work in the Taekwondo schools over here either.


----------



## _Simon_ (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> A kicking shield needs a holder though, so you need at the very least a partner at home.


I'm talking hanging bag.


----------



## _Simon_ (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Where did you take your Shotokan lessons? Heavy bag work has not been used by any club I know of here in Sweden. No heavy bag work in the Taekwondo schools over here either.



I'm in Aus, the club was a mix as they had sport fighters and that style of training, but trained pretty extensively in a bunch of different aspects, not solely focusing on one


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> I'm talking hanging bag.



Yeah but where? Having a heavy bag hanging around in a little apartment is not practical for several reasons. Not the least of which space but it can also be bad news for the apartment.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Where did you take your Shotokan lessons? Heavy bag work has not been used by any club I know of here in Sweden. No heavy bag work in the Taekwondo schools over here either.


Keep grasping at straws...you’ve been proven wrong by multiple people yet again...just give it up


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> I'm in Aus, the club was a mix as they had sport fighters and that style of training, but trained pretty extensively in a bunch of different aspects, not solely focusing on one



What do you mean a mix? It was not a pure Shotokan school?


----------



## _Simon_ (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yeah but where? Having a heavy bag hanging around in a little apartment is not practical for several reasons. Not the least of which space but it can also be bad news for the apartment.


Sure. I'm just speaking generally. About what to expect from a school, and what components can be worked on and trained at home.


----------



## _Simon_ (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> What do you mean a mix? It was not a pure Shotokan school?


No I mean in terms of their focus. Some Shotokan schools are very focused on point fighting and tournaments, others on strict kata training and technique etc etc. This one was pure Shotokan, but looked at and trained most aspects pretty evenly. Just from my short time there that is.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> No I mean in terms of their focus. Some Shotokan schools are very focused on point fighting and tournaments, others on strict kata training and technique etc etc. This one was pure Shotokan, but looked at and trained most aspects pretty evenly. Just from my short time there that is.



But why would they need heavy bag work in preperation for "skin touch" point fighting?


----------



## _Simon_ (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But why would they need heavy bag work in preperation for "skin touch" point fighting?



No this school was medium contact in general class sparring and gradings. But they also trained for the point sparring circuits too.

Also heavy bag training is good impact training


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Also heavy bag training is good impact training



Have you tried hitting the heavy bag with those karate gloves? It's not fun


----------



## _Simon_ (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Have you tried hitting the heavy bag with those karate gloves? It's not fun


Ah not the WKF style ones, but have bare knuckle, with the softer mitts and MMA style gloves. Don't know how those would go!


----------



## wab25 (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> People are ignorant. Take a guess why it's bad long-term for the knees kicking a hard, heavy bag. This isn't rocket science.


If I am training to kick a guy my size... in the ring, they match you up by weight... then I need to be conditioned to kick a 200 pound person. If kicking a 40, 50, 60 or 70 pound heavy bag is going to do me damage... kicking a 200 pound person would be even worse for me. I feel, that if I want to kick a 200 pound person, with lots of pointy boney parts... a good way to work up to that is by kicking a heavy bag that is less than half the weight of a person. At least the heavy bag doesn't have pointy boney parts sticking out of it...

If you are hurting your knees kicking a heavy bag... maybe get some instruction and training first? If you are hurting your knees, kicking a heavy bag, you are, by definition, doing it wrong.


----------



## wab25 (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> JKA? What country?


Kenkojuku style Shotokan in Florida. But many of the schools I mention, that we cross train with and who kick things are JKA.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

wab25 said:


> If I am training to kick a guy my size... in the ring, they match you up by weight... then I need to be conditioned to kick a 200 pound person. If kicking a 40, 50, 60 or 70 pound heavy bag is going to do me damage... kicking a 200 pound person would be even worse for me. I feel, that if I want to kick a 200 pound person, with lots of pointy boney parts... a good way to work up to that is by kicking a heavy bag that is less than half the weight of a person. At least the heavy bag doesn't have pointy boney parts sticking out of it...
> 
> If you are hurting your knees kicking a heavy bag... maybe get some instruction and training first? If you are hurting your knees, kicking a heavy bag, you are, by definition, doing it wrong.



Whether you need to do it for fighting is a seperate discussion


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Have you tried hitting the heavy bag with those karate gloves? It's not fun


I’ve always hit the bag with bare hands.  No wraps, no gloves.  That’s how I do it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2020)

wab25 said:


> If I am training to kick a guy my size... in the ring, they match you up by weight... then I need to be conditioned to kick a 200 pound person. If kicking a 40, 50, 60 or 70 pound heavy bag is going to do me damage... kicking a 200 pound person would be even worse for me. I feel, that if I want to kick a 200 pound person, with lots of pointy boney parts... a good way to work up to that is by kicking a heavy bag that is less than half the weight of a person. At least the heavy bag doesn't have pointy boney parts sticking out of it...
> 
> If you are hurting your knees kicking a heavy bag... maybe get some instruction and training first? If you are hurting your knees, kicking a heavy bag, you are, by definition, doing it wrong.


My heavy bag has bony parts sticking out of it. 

But that’s because I hid the bodies there.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> As Ive said, my knees are fine.  Do you have reason to believe I am lying?  Do you know my knees better than I do?
> 
> Maybe it’s just your knees that can’t take it.  I dunno.



I already adressed that but you clearly are struggling with the concept.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I’ve always hit the bag with bare hands.  No wraps, no gloves.  That’s how I do it.


No you didn’t stop lying


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I’ve always hit the bag with bare hands.  No wraps, no gloves.  That’s how I do it.



You're getting smarter by the minute.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You're getting smarter by the minute.


I am so fortunate to have your approval.


----------



## wab25 (Aug 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> My heavy bag has bony parts sticking out of it.
> 
> But that’s because I hid the bodies there.


Well now... that is nobodies fault but yours... 

(note: you may want to relocate the bodies... now that you just revealed their location... just sayin' )


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Well now... that is nobodies fault but yours...
> 
> (note: you may want to relocate the bodies... now that you just revealed their location... just sayin' )


There I go, shooting my mouth off again..:


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> A kicking shield needs a holder though, so you need at the very least a partner at home.


Best with a partner, though I've strapped them to solid anchor points at times to make an impromptu makiwara.


----------



## Graywalker (Aug 27, 2020)

Yes, its still done today. Bag work has always been important. I am not a shotokan guy, but Goju Ryu, is part of the Shudokan curriculum.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I already adressed that but you clearly are struggling with the concept.


No, really, you didn't.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You're getting smarter by the minute.


You're not getting any better at conversation, though.


----------



## Buka (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You're getting smarter by the minute.



Let's recap, shall we? You don't train, you can't kick, your stance is weak, your transition from stance to a weak kick meanders to keep your balance.

Yet, you're here to sarcastically insults members of this forum. What's wrong, kid, mama slap you upside the head and threw away the milk, did she?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

Buka said:


> Let's recap, shall we? You don't train, you can't kick, your stance is weak, your transition from stance to a weak kick meanders to keep your balance.
> 
> Yet, you're here to sarcastically insults members of this forum. What's wrong, kid, mama slap you upside the head and threw away the milk, did she?



I threw a bullseye roundhouse kick at full speed with zero flinch post kick, wearing boots. 2 years inactive. Now let's see you kick, mr American Karate. Maybe you'll shame me


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I threw a bullseye roundhouse kick at full speed with zero flinch post kick, wearing boots. 2 years inactive. Now let's see you kick, mr American Karate. Maybe you'll shame me


What is a bullseye roundhouse kick, and why is it impressive that you didn't flinch afterwards? I would hope that you're not flinching after your kicks..


----------



## wab25 (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Now let's see you kick, mr American Karate. Maybe you'll shame me


Funny... I don't recall seeing yours first. If you are going to call someone out like that... at least show your kick first.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I threw a bullseye roundhouse kick at full speed with zero flinch post kick, wearing boots. 2 years inactive. Now let's see you kick, mr American Karate. Maybe you'll shame me


No you didn’t


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What is a bullseye roundhouse kick, and why is it impressive that you didn't flinch afterwards? I would hope that you're not flinching after your kicks..



One of the measures of kicking dexterity is precision, and I threw it *exactly* centerline, not an inch to the side. It is also used as a way of keeping track of flexibility. If you cross center line with your knee during the kicking moment, you are overrotating. Overrotation is undesirable.

Flinching happens when you have poor balance and control over your technique, which is usually increased the harder you go. This results in the student either falling on his butt in sparring by overkill, or having poor post kick control with floppy hands all over the place after the kick lands.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> One of the measures of kicking dexterity is precision, and I threw it *exactly* centerline, not an inch to the side. It is also used as a way of keeping track of flexibility. If you cross center line with your knee during the kicking moment, you are overrotating. Overrotation is undesirable.
> 
> Flinching happens when you have poor balance and control over your technique, which is usually increased the harder you go. This results in the student either falling on his butt in sparring by overkill, or having poor post kick control with floppy hands all over the place after the kick lands.


Show us then....show us this amazing perfect kick


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Funny... I don't recall seeing yours first. If you are going to call someone out like that... at least show your kick first.



You have now


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You have now


Is that like the old Bionic Man TV show where they had him run in slow motion to suggest how blisteringly fast he was?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Is that like the old Bionic Man TV show where they had him run in slow motion to suggest how blisteringly fast he was?
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!



Slow motion made it regular speed


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Is that like the old Bionic Man TV show where they had him run in slow motion to suggest how blisteringly fast he was?
> !



I had to look up what that is but I'll take it as a compliment.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> One of the measures of kicking dexterity is precision, and I threw it *exactly* centerline, not an inch to the side. It is also used as a way of keeping track of flexibility. If you cross center line with your knee during the kicking moment, you are overrotating. Overrotation is undesirable.
> 
> Flinching happens when you have poor balance and control over your technique, which is usually increased the harder you go. This results in the student either falling on his butt in sparring by overkill, or having poor post kick control with floppy hands all over the place after the kick lands.


So you threw an accurate kick without losing your balance. You've been doing TKD for a couple years right? I would assume that's something any TKD black belt can do.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> So you threw an accurate kick without losing your balance. You've been doing TKD for a couple years right? I would assume that's something any TKD black belt can do.



Not at that level of intensity they can't and not without hitting something. You're welcome to pull footage of somebody doing it, and he is not allowed to rest on a target. If you find someone doing it, I bet you he's famous

Oh and I'm a red belt but no matter.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Not at that level of intensity they can't and not without hitting something. You're welcome to pull footage of somebody doing it, and he is not allowed to rest on a target. If you find someone doing it, I bet you he's famous
> 
> Oh and I'm a red belt but no matter.


You know who I bet can do that? The guys at those "kick the air" dojos. They probably get pretty good at doing that without needing a target.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You know who I bet can do that? The guys at those "kick the air" dojos. They probably get pretty good at doing that without needing a target.



That's right and I'm one of them. I certainly advocate kicking air.


----------



## wab25 (Aug 27, 2020)

Am I the only one confused here? Lets recap...



Acronym said:


> In fact, one of the things i requested to join was that we kicked things and not just air in my email to the school



First, its important to kick targets, not just air. Then we attacked Shotokan and Goju Ryu specifically, because all they do is kick air.

Then we point out, that kicking things with resistance is dangerous...



Acronym said:


> People are ignorant. Take a guess why it's bad long-term for the knees kicking a hard, heavy bag. This isn't rocket science.





Acronym said:


> Do you think kicking a door is good for your knees? If you don't think that, then you don't think it's good to kick a heavy bag for your knees either.





Acronym said:


> by insulting both your own intelligence and mine arguing that there are no health aspects of KICKING a heavy bag?
> 
> Again, how do your knees feel when there's resistance? Not so good, huh? How about hard resistance? Not so good either? Lets make that hard *and* heavy and suddenly it's perfectly healthy.



Once we have established how bad it is to kick things with resistance...



Acronym said:


> That's right and I'm one of them. I certainly advocate kicking air.



We are advocating kicking air.... which I believe is exactly opposite of what we said when the thread was started.

But, at least you owned up and showed off your kick... that way we can all see for ourselves the level you are at. Get back to me when you figure out if Shotokan and Goju Ryu are good because they kick air or bad because they don't kick targets. I'll be happy to resume the dialog, once you figure out what your position is.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Am I the only one confused here? Lets recap...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's not either or. You need to do both.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Slow motion made it regular speed


That a pretty good attempt at polishing a turd.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> That a pretty good attempt at polishing a turd.



Your turn


----------



## Buka (Aug 27, 2020)

I was a red belt once, back in 72. I don't remember any of our instructors allowing ungentlemanly
behavior, arrogance or insults. I don't know, maybe TKD is different where you are.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 27, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Am I the only one confused here? Lets recap...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought I was the only one noticing the flip flop. Thanks for confirming I'm not just going crazy.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I thought I was the only one noticing the flip flop. Thanks for confirming I'm not just going crazy.



So me saying that kicking air *only* is bad equates to saying kicking air is bad? And me being against kicking a heavy bag means that I'm against kicking anything? 

I wrote medium soft kicking shields are the way to go IMO.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I thought I was the only one noticing the flip flop. Thanks for confirming I'm not just going crazy.


He never said that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> So me saying that kicking air *only* is bad equates to saying kicking air is bad? And me being against kicking a heavy bag means that I'm against kicking anything?
> 
> I wrote medium soft kicking shields are the way to go IMO.


All apparently based on your own vague notions.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> All apparently based on your own vague notions.



I thought you agreed on that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I thought you agreed on that.


That you have presented arguments without support? Yes, I agreed with that.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That you have presented arguments without support? Yes, I agreed with that.



You agreed that kicking something is essential to a kick art. And I gather you also agree that kicking something here and there is not going to cut it. It's not going to instill much. 

There are two reasons why you need the experience of kicking something. First is to understand range in relation to ones limbs. This might sound trivial but it's very common, I would say a given, that someone new to kicking things will kick too close or too far away from the target. 

Second of all, air does not correct improper technique but kicking shields do. If you don't do it properly you will bounce of it. 

Not having had the experience of resistance is in and of itself a downside. 

One can sort of get when a kick thrown in the air wasn't crisp, but you can never get any input whether kick A had a better effect than kick B..You just don’t know until it hits something. In other words  the spectrum is totally lost. 

Finally, kicking things work power more efficiently,since you are doing the same motions +resistance. And not just one over the other


----------



## _Simon_ (Aug 28, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What is a bullseye roundhouse kick, and why is it impressive that you didn't flinch afterwards? I would hope that you're not flinching after your kicks..


I flinch after all my kicks... what can I say they frighten me... :s


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

If you flinch, you make a small sudden movement, especially when something surprises you or hurts you


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Or "jitter"


----------



## wab25 (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You agreed that kicking something is essential to a kick art. And I gather you also agree that kicking something here and there is not going to cut it. It's not going to instill much.
> 
> There are two reasons why you need the experience of kicking something. First is to understand range in relation to ones limbs. This might sound trivial but it's very common, I would say a given, that someone new to kicking things will kick too close or too far away from the target.
> 
> ...



I clicked the "Like" button here, because after 7 pages... you finally clearly stated your position. This really should have been in post #1.

Maybe dial back the attitude a bit... and clearly state your full position up front, and we can have a decent discussion about it. You might even find out that most of the people here, that you have been arguing against, actually agree that you need both. This could have gone on to discuss the different ratios of air kicks vs resistance kicks, or into what are different methods for air kicks or resistance kicks. But instead, we went 7 pages arguing about something that we all basically agree with. 

If you just want to argue, have attitude and call people out... there are other forums.... I kind of like this one, as we try to discuss things like adults. (or at least like children who pretend to be adults sometimes)


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

wab25 said:


> I clicked the "Like" button here, because after 7 pages... you finally clearly stated your position. This really should have been in post #1.
> 
> Maybe dial back the attitude a bit... and clearly state your full position up front, and we can have a decent discussion about it. You might even find out that most of the people here, that you have been arguing against, actually agree that you need both. This could have gone on to discuss the different ratios of air kicks vs resistance kicks, or into what are different methods for air kicks or resistance kicks. But instead, we went 7 pages arguing about something that we all basically agree with.
> 
> If you just want to argue, have attitude and call people out... there are other forums.... I kind of like this one, as we try to discuss things like adults. (or at least like children who pretend to be adults sometimes)



Selective memory? 




Buka said:


> Let's recap, shall we? You don't train, you can't kick, your stance is weak, your transition from stance to a weak kick meanders to keep your balance.
> 
> Yet, you're here to sarcastically insults members of this forum. What's wrong, kid, mama slap you upside the head and threw away the milk, did she?


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Selective memory?


Yeah because everyone is sick of your arrogant attitude


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah because everyone is sick of your arrogant attitude



I back it up.


----------



## wab25 (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Selective memory?


Not at all... I remember that post quite well... one of the better responses to attitude I have seen. (trying to remember that one so I can use it sometime  )

I have also been around here long enough to know that you have to work quite hard (read: have a lot of attitude...) to get a response like that from Buka. 

Had you led with post #135, there is no way you would have gotten that response from Buka. So in that sense... I got to thank you for that... I enjoyed it.


----------



## dvcochran (Aug 28, 2020)

Back when we opened our first school (TKD) there was a good Shotokan presence in our town and adjoining county. Many of us cross trained at each others school as a professional courtesy and regularly met for sparring sessions. Let me tell you, those Shotokan guys definitely knew how to kick. Good times.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Back when we opened our first school (TKD) there was a good Shotokan presence in our town and adjoining county. Many of us cross trained at each others school as a professional courtesy and regularly met for sparring sessions. Let me tell you, those Shotokan guys definitely knew how to kick. Good times.



Well I never said that they can't kick. I've trained in the same building as a Japan Karate Association, Shotokan school under the tutelage of an 8th Dan master, and they never used any tools to kick.

I sat and watched in-between my training. I guess they bring it out whenever I'm not there


----------



## dvcochran (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Well I never said that they can't kick. I've trained in the same building as a Japan Karate Association, Shotokan school under the tutelage of an 8th Dan master, and they never used any tools to kick.
> 
> I sat and watched in-between my training. I guess they bring it out whenever I'm not there


It sounds like you need to adjust your training schedule days or just stick with it until you start practicing more advanced tactics. Enjoy the journey.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It sounds like you need to adjust your training schedule days or just stick with it until you start practicing more advanced tactics. Enjoy the journey.



I do not train Shotokan. I was in the same building, watching their classes. They never hit anything, and it was Brown belt to black belt classes.

The quality control of their black belts is higher than any TKD organisation. If you have a black belt in JKA Shotokan, you've earned it. So that's not the point.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I back it up.


Do you? I’ve seen absolutely no evidence to prove that


----------



## dvcochran (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I do not train Shotokan. I was in the same building, watching their classes. They never hit anything, and it was Brown belt to black belt classes.
> 
> The quality control of their black belts is higher than any TKD organisation. If you have a black belt in JKA Shotokan, you've earned it. So that's not the point.


Okay, so what Specifically is your point?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Okay, so what Specifically is your point?



Do they kick things every week at most schools? Was this somehow an outlier I watched despite the very famous instructor?


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Do they kick things every week at most schools? Was this somehow an outlier I watched despite the very famous instructor?


The answer is yes they do kick things as multiple people have already answered but you have chosen to ignore in your arrogance


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> The answer is yes they do kick things as multiple people have already answered but you have chosen to ignore in your arrogance



The answer so far is no, not frequently. 



Papageno said:


> We use mitts and punch bags in our training, but only occasionally.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

And the clip you linked was not a Shotokan class, it was individual training.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Yes, its still done today. Bag work has always been important. I am not a shotokan guy, but Goju Ryu, is part of the Shudokan curriculum.




So heavy bags are hanging in Goju Ryu dojos?


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## Graywalker (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> So heavy bags are hanging in Goju Ryu dojos?


I would imagine..but really how would you know.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Aug 28, 2020)

Odd... we have plenty of kicks in Goju


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> I would imagine..but really how would you know.



You would Imagine? You said that you train it


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## Graywalker (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You would Imagine? You said that you train it


Yes but how would I know if every school has a heavy bag?


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Yes but how would I know if every school has a heavy bag?




Did I ask if every school has it or is that your interpretation?


----------



## Graywalker (Aug 28, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Yes but how would





Acronym said:


> So heavy bags are hanging in Goju Ryu dojos?


Yes you did. The 's' at the end of a word, like dojo, kinda shows you did.


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

See people who either willingly or unwillingly make silly replies like this and take an attitude, get the same back. I did not ask if every Goju ryu school on the planet has one, nor did I imply it. 

Generally speaking, based on your observations, are there heavy bags hanging in Goju Ruy dojos?


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Yes you did. The 's' at the end of a word, like dojo, kinda shows you did.



No I did not. That is an absurd interpretation. Do I have to qualify every question with generally? It's not obvious to you that's what I meant?


----------



## Graywalker (Aug 28, 2020)

Really though, you seem to be all over the place w


Acronym said:


> See people who either willingly or unwillingly make silly replies like this and take an attitude, get the same back. I did not ask if every Goju ryu school on the planet has one, nor did I imply it.
> 
> Generally speaking, based on your observations, are there heavy bags hanging in Goju Ruy dojos?


You are simply just changing things to suit your argument. You did say 'Goju Dojo's" that would indicate, that you are asking if all GoJu Dojo's have hanging bags.

My kids try that same tactic all the time.


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## Graywalker (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No I did not. That is an absurd interpretation. Do I have to qualify every question with generally? It's not obvious to you that's what I meant?


Yes you do need to make yourself clear.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Really though, you seem to be all over the place w
> 
> You are simply just changing things to suit your argument. You did say 'Goju Dojo's" that would indicate, that you are asking if all GoJu Dojo's have hanging bags.
> 
> My kids try that same tactic all the time.



No I didn't..Nobody could possibly have been to every Goju dojo in the world, hence why this shouldn't even be considered a valid interpretation

However, did you not state there's a Shudokan curriculum?


----------



## Graywalker (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No I didn't..Nobody could possibly have been to every Goju dojo in the world, hence why this shouldn't even be considered a valid interpretation
> 
> However, did you not state there's a Shudokan curriculum?


Really, talking to this type of mentality, is  something I have no patience for. I will refrain from commenting on your threads.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Did I ask if every school has it or is that your interpretation?


It is implied in your statements.  If not literally “every”, then at least as a solid rule.

You say “does Goju do this” and “does Shotokan do that”, well that implies you are looking for a rule with few or no exceptions. So yes, every or nearly every dojo.

Look, a bit of friendly advice here:  you came in with a really weird attitude here, like you have all the answers and you are going to teach us all how wrong we are.  Nobody is going to be receptive to that approach.  There are a whole lot of people here who have been training for much longer than you have been alive.  You are a red belt in some school or other.  That is unimpressive.  You are not an authority.  We have zero reason to take your advice as something that we can learn from.

Chill out.  Engage in discussion but drop the attitude.

At this point you might want to start a new thread where you own up to the mistakes you have made here in terms of online discussion etiquette, and then move on.  You may still be able to become a positive, contributing member of this online community.  Otherwise you are quickly becoming a pariah.

Which do you want to be?  It’s up to you.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I think you missed his point.  Maybe @Buka will clarify it for you.  If he is willing to suffer you.




"If he is willing to suffer you". That's an attitude. We call that being a prick where I'm from so why don't you start and set an example?


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

And this could get you banned. But of course supporting members are free to break whatever rule They want.



Flying Crane said:


> That a pretty good attempt at polishing a turd.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> "If he is willing to suffer you". That's an attitude. We call that being a prick where I'm from so why don't you start and set an example?


You aren’t here to school me son.  Pick your own path.  Best of luck to you.  I expect you will need it.


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> You aren’t here to school me son.  Pick your own path.  Best of luck to you.  I expect you will need it.



And you aren't here to school me.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And you aren't here to school me.


Good luck in your life.  See if you can make a friend or two.  Life is  better that way.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And this could get you banned. But of course supporting members are free to break whatever rule They want.


There is a little “report” button in the lower left corner of every post.  If you feel I have broken a rule then feel free to report my post.  The moderators will review it and take any action that they deem is appropriate.


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## Danny T (Aug 28, 2020)

While I can't speak to all shotokan groups I do know a lot of shotokan practitioners and have seen far more in competitions over past 50 years of my journey in the martial arts. I did about 6 months of goju ryu while in the military and yes we did kick shields and heavy bags. I tell you what those shotokan people are hard punchers and kickers. Having been a boxer, a nak muay, and having been a muay thai & a mma coach for many years people don't become hard strikers by striking the air. They strike pads, shields, heavy bags and humans when sparring or in competitions. Others mileage may vary.


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Danny T said:


> While I can't speak to all shotokan groups I do know a lot of shotokan practitioners and have seen far more in competitions over past 50 years of my journey in the martial arts. I did about 6 months of goju ryu while in the military and yes we did kick shields and heavy bags. I tell you what those shotokan people are hard punchers and kickers. Having been a boxer, a nak muay, and having been a muay thai & a mma coach for many years people don't become hard strikers by striking the air. They strike pads, shields, heavy bags and humans when sparring or in competitions. Others mileage may vary.



I can't find a single Shotokan class online where they kick things. We may need to hire a detective because I give up.


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Danny T said:


> people don't become hard strikers by striking the air. .



Whang Jang Lee did according to his student Roy Horan. He never had him kick at anything, to which Horan asked how can you get the timing right and things and Whang replied to him: "don't worry it will take care of itself"

Even more amazing, Hwang had no formal training in martial arts. He just showed up for gradings.


----------



## Danny T (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I can't find a single Shotokan class online where they kick things. We may need to hire a detective because I give up.



 
Went to youtube, wrote in 'shotokan kicking heavy bag' several videos came up showing persons kicking bags. Now none showed a group of people as in a class however, the few I viewed had multiple bags of different sorts which I deduce that multiple persons are using them and not just 1 or two.


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Danny T said:


> [. Now none showed a group of people as in a class however, the few I viewed had multiple bags of different sorts which I deduce that multiple persons are using them and not just 1 or two.



You don't find that suspicious?


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## dvcochran (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Do they kick things every week at most schools? Was this somehow an outlier I watched despite the very famous instructor?


And who would that be?


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## Danny T (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You don't find that suspicious?


No, I don't post my classes on line but do have several with individuals showing some of the things we do.


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Danny T said:


> No, I don't post my classes on line but do have several with individuals showing some of the things we do.



 here's my art of Taekwondo. Took me a second


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## dvcochran (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No I did not. That is an absurd interpretation. Do I have to qualify every question with generally? It's not obvious to you that's what I meant?


In context, your OP encompassed All Shotokan dojo's. That in itself is an illogical question. Most assuredly things are going to be different from school to school, certainly from region to region. 
So who was your famous instructor?


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> In context, your OP encompassed All Shotokan dojo's. That in itself is an illogical question. Most assuredly things are going to be different from school to school, certainly from region to region.
> So who was your famous instructor?



Again, I did NOT train Shotokan in that building, but I did watch them.

Ted Hedlund
Ted Hedlund | EUROPEAN SHOTOKAN KARATE-DO ASSOCIATION


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## dvcochran (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And you aren't here to school me.


I just checked your profile. No surprise it is blank. You are one of those people who want to blow hard when something is said against your opinion but have zero assertion to back up any of your claims. Why would you think anyone can come to this forum, or anywhere for that matter, and immediately expect people to cow-tow to you? You obviously do not see who is being the prxxk here.


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I just checked your profile. No surprise it is blank. You are one of those people who want to blow hard when something is said against your opinion but have zero assertion to back up any of your claims. Why would you think anyone can come to this forum, or anywhere for that matter, and immediately expect people to cow-tow to you? You obviously do not see who is being the prxxk here.



Where did I call anything someone else did a turd? Where did I call someones kicks weak? Where did I do Anything besides express an opinion?


----------



## dvcochran (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Again, I did NOT train Shotokan in that building, but I did watch them.
> 
> Ted Hedlund
> Ted Hedlund | EUROPEAN SHOTOKAN KARATE-DO ASSOCIATION


Okay, a very respectful resume. Why in the world did you Not ask Mr. Hedlund, the expert, the instructor of your claimed class when you were there, right in his class, right in front of him??? What additional information about such a vague question do you expect to gain from a bunch of people on a forum who are at best second hand information? You were there. Right there. Just ask the damn question to a flesh and blood person who is capable of answering it in the moment.


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## dvcochran (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Where did I call anything someone else did a turd? Where did I call someones kicks weak? Where did I do Anything besides express an opinion?


??? Have no idea what you are talking about. Can you please be specific?


----------



## dvcochran (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> here's my art of Taekwondo. Took me a second


So which one is you?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Okay, a very respectful resume. Why in the world did you Not ask Mr. Hedlund, the expert, the instructor of your claimed class when you were there, right in his class, right in front of him??? What additional information about such a vague question do you expect to gain from a bunch of people on a forum who are at best second hand information? You were there. Right there. Just ask the damn question to a flesh and blood person who is capable of answering it in the moment.



Because my question is not directed towards that school since it's perfectly clear that they don't, and I'm sure he doesn't give a damn what other schools do


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## Danny T (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> here's my art of Taekwondo. Took me a second


Okay. ???


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Danny T said:


> Okay. ???



It's not hard to find if it’s part of the standard curriculum.


----------



## Danny T (Aug 28, 2020)




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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Danny T said:


>



Never heard of it. Independent organisation. 

Now if you can show me a JKA school in real time, with a class, kicking things, I will have found my piece.


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## Danny T (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Never heard of it. Independent organisation.
> 
> Now if you can show me a JKA school in real time, with a class, kicking things, I will have found my piece.


Now you have moved the goal posts again.
I'm responding to your question "Do you kick anything in your Shotokan or Goju Ryu kick training?" 
You wanted something on the internet I gave you something. 
You then want something with a class.
I presented such.
So now you want something from a specific organization of Shotokan. 
If that is found are you then going to want a video from a specific organization from a specific town? 
The thing is I answered your question in that there are shotokan schools, groups, & individuals who do kick objects within their kick training.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Danny T said:


> Now you have moved the goal posts again.
> I'm responding to your question "Do you kick anything in your Shotokan or Goju Ryu kick training?"
> You wanted something on the internet I gave you something.
> You then want something with a class.
> ...



An independent organisation can call themselves anything without any lineage and thus not be representative of the art


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Danny T said:


> If that is found are you then going to want a video from a specific organization from a specific town?
> .



Nope. And I don't think you'll find anything.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 28, 2020)

Can we all just agree to put this kid on ignore. He’s obviously just a trouble maker looking for attention. Seeing as every single post he’s made is talking down on different styles and training methods


----------



## wab25 (Aug 28, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Can we all just agree to put this kid on ignore. He’s obviously just a trouble maker looking for attention. Seeing as every single post he’s made is talking down on different styles and training methods



"Put this kid on ignore" - can't we at least come up with an acronym for that?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Can we all just agree to put this kid on ignore. He’s obviously just a trouble maker looking for attention. Seeing as every single post he’s made is talking down on different styles and training methods



So you agree there exists no such footage. Good.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

wab25 said:


> "Put this kid on ignore" - can't we at least come up with an acronym for that?




I forgot who you are again.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> So you agree there exists no such footage. Good.


I don’t know and frankly I don’t care. You’re one of these silly kids who think just because it’s not online it means it doesn’t exist...well guess what not every club posts everything on YouTube. You asked if these styles kicked things. There have been plenty of responses mine included which confirm that they DO kick things but you just ignore it or try and discredit it. The fact that you are so bothered about what every other style does shows me all I need to know about you.


----------



## wab25 (Aug 28, 2020)

Can't believe I spent 30 seconds finding this...




Checked out their website: TNT School of Martial Arts  - Martial Arts Alliston


> We are proud members of The Canadian Japan Karate Federation, and teach *Shotokan Karate to the JKA (Japan Karate Association) standards*.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> I don’t know and frankly I don’t care. You’re one of these silly kids who think just because it’s not online it means it doesn’t exist...well guess what not every club posts everything on YouTube. You asked if these styles kicked things. There have been plenty of responses mine included which confirm that they DO kick things but you just ignore it or try and discredit it. The fact that you are so bothered about what every other style does shows me all I need to know about you.



Yet I pulled footage of the International TaeKwonDo Federation having a club doing it without even having to type in the word "pad", "mitts" or "bag".

I am not bothered by anything. I asked a simple question. Would I garner this type of response if I asked if Boxers hit a heavy bag? 

They clearly don't kick things at a regular basis. Just admit that and let's discuss why.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Can't believe I spent 30 seconds finding this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is NOT a Shotokan class. Will you ever learn?


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yet I pulled footage of the International TaeKwonDo Federation having a club doing it without even having to type in the word "pad", "mitts" or "bag".
> 
> I am not bothered by anything. I asked a simple question. Would I garner this type of response if I asked if Boxers hit a heavy bag?
> 
> They clearly don't kick things at a regular basis. Just admit that and let's discuss why.


Good for you go ask your mom for a cookie for being so clever. 
No I won’t admit that because plenty of people have given you answers saying that they DO. I trained at a place that did it every single class so no I will not admit to your extremely inaccurate point and it is obvious there is absolutely no point in having a discussion with you


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Good for you go ask your mom for a cookie for being so clever.
> No I won’t admit that because plenty of people have given you answers saying that they DO. I trained at a place that did it every single class so no I will not admit to your extremely inaccurate point and it is obvious there is absolutely no point in having a discussion with you



Well again, I take what you claim with a touch of salt and a Big mac. You also claimed Gishin Funakoshi advocated sparring, when what he promoted was one and two step-sparring, that is predetermined attack and defense sequences, not free sparring. His son Gigo however introduced free sparring.


----------



## wab25 (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That is NOT a Shotokan class. Will you ever learn?


You should learn to be a little more observant. Notice that there are at least 3 heavy bags, 5 shields and a bunch of focus targets... that all look well used... in a school that teaches JKA Shotokan Karate.

Here you go, same school, different video:





Looks like a class to me... at least three students working heavy bags... in a JKA Shotokan school. (One black belt, one green belt... can't see the belt of the 3rd guy)

They have a ton more videos using heavy bags... but you are right, most of the videos are showing the drills, not showing the class doing them... that does not mean they don't do them in class...


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Well again, I take what you claim with a touch of salt and a Big mac. You also claimed Gishin Funakoshi advocated sparring, when what he promoted was one and two step-sparring, that is predetermined attack and defense sequences, not free sparring. His son Gigo however introduced free sparring.


Lol no I didn’t because I don’t know about that stuff it’s not my area....you see I only talk about things I know...try it sometime. Go look back you will not see me involved in any of those discussions....keep up


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Lol no I didn’t because I don’t know about that stuff it’s not my area....you see I only talk about things I know...try it sometime. Go look back you will not see me involved in any of those discussions....keep up



I'm 99.9%. sure it was you who made the claim that Gishin Funakoshi advocated sparring. I apologize if I mistook you but my trusty old photographic memory usually doesn't let me down.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I'm 99.9%. sure it was you who made the claim that Funakoshi advocated sparring. I apologize if I mistook you but my trusty old photographic memory usually doesn't let me down.


Well I’m 100% sure I didn’t.....because I didn’t


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Well I’m 100% sure I didn’t.....because I didn’t



Let's get back to finding the footage, shall we? Wouldn't it be great if you shut me up with JKA Karatekas doing modern class training?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

wab25 said:


> You should learn to be a little more observant. Notice that there are at least 3 heavy bags, 5 shields and a bunch of focus targets... that all look well used... in a school that teaches JKA Shotokan Karate.
> 
> Here you go, same school, different video:
> 
> ...



Exactly.. Show me a class doing it and I'll eat my shoe. Anything modern you have to do by yourself is their motto. Which is ironic since kicking and punching air is precisely the thing you can do by yourself!


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 28, 2020)

wab25 said:


> "Put this kid on ignore" - can't we at least come up with an acronym for that?


I saw what you did there!!


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I saw what you did there!!



You're still here after calling me a turd? Oh well, maybe the mods haven't looked at it yet.


----------



## wab25 (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Exactly.. Show me a class doing it and I'll eat my shoe. Anything modern you have to do by yourself is their motto. Which is ironic since kicking and punching air is precisely the thing you can do by yourself!


One class doing it was not enough? Okay here is another, from a different school even.




Now, lets see you eat that shoe...
(well darn... Danny beat me to that video... still, thats two classes now of Shotokan using heavy bags)


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

wab25 said:


> One class doing it was not enough? Okay here is another, from a different school even.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lmao, thats the same clip as before. I can open a school and call it Shotokan. Stick to the established organisations.


----------



## wab25 (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> lmao, thats the same clip as before. I can open a school and call it Shotokan. Stick to the established organisations.


JKA is not main stream or established enough? My first class was from a JKA school... with lots of heavy bags, that get frequent use.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 28, 2020)

wab25 said:


> JKA is not main stream or established enough? My first class was from a JKA school... with lots of heavy bags, that get frequent use.


Don’t even bother it’s a waste of time. Let him believe whatever fantasies he wants to invent


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

wab25 said:


> JKA is not main stream or established enough? My first class was from a JKA school... with lots of heavy bags, that get frequent use.





wab25 said:


> JKA is not main stream or established enough? My first class was from a JKA school... with lots of heavy bags, that get frequent use.



Its a hybrid gym.  but nice  try

*We specialize in:*

**Shotokan Karate-do**
**Karate for MMA*
*Kickboxing* 
*CARDIO KARATE**
**Practical Self Defense**
**MMA Training**
**Olympic Karate* *
**Okinawan Weapons*
*Wrestling**

Claycomb Academy of Martial Arts, Fontana Karate | Japanese Shotokan Karate, Kickboxing, Wrestling Lessons, MMA Training, Self Defense School, Kids Karate, Adult Martial Arts, Rancho Cucamonga CA, Rialto CA, Bloomington CA, North Fontana, Inland Empire


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## Danny T (Aug 28, 2020)

The original question was
*"Did you kick anything in your Shotokan or Goju Ryu kick training?" *
Some people responded yes.
Then he added it had to be a video. 
When videos were shown he added it had to be of a class.
When a class was shown he added it have to be a JKA school.
Now it has to be a JKA only school.

The goal posts keep getting moved.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 28, 2020)

Danny T said:


> The original question was
> *"Did you kick anything in your Shotokan or Goju Ryu kick training?" *
> Some people responded yes.
> Then he added it had to be a video.
> ...


You missed the part where he asked about the country in question.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Danny T said:


> The original question was
> *"Did you kick anything in your Shotokan or Goju Ryu kick training?" *
> Some people responded yes.
> Then he added it had to be a video.
> ...



It doesn’t have to be anything. I never made a claim in the OP, I Asked. Am I not allowed to expand the question?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You missed the part where he asked about the country in question.



Nope. All countries count. Hybrid Karate MMA schools do not count though because I already know that they accept modern training equipment.


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## Headhunter (Aug 28, 2020)

Danny T said:


> The original question was
> *"Did you kick anything in your Shotokan or Goju Ryu kick training?" *
> Some people responded yes.
> Then he added it had to be a video.
> ...


Soon it’ll be....”it has to be punching “


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## Headhunter (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It doesn’t have to be anything. I never made a claim in the OP, I Asked. Am I not allowed to expand the question?


And then when you got given you made up stories about why it’s not legit including calling people liars


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## Flying Crane (Aug 28, 2020)

I’m gonna suggest that maybe Mr. Acronym needs some alone time.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Nope. All countries count. Hybrid Karate MMA schools do not count though because I already know that they accept modern training equipment.


Whether or not all countries count, you asked one person specifically about what country he trained after he answered you, and another where he trains, implying you wanted to know the country.


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## wab25 (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Will you ever learn?


Alright... I am ready to learn now. I am ready to admit that, despite my own experience, and the testimony of half a dozen people here who have a couple hundred years of combined experience in the martial arts (I bet we have more combined experience training in Shotokan than you have been alive...) that I am wrong. Despite all these years training, you are correct sir... we have no idea how we train or what a typical class is like.

So please... enlighten me with your wealth of knowledge... I am now ready to learn, if you would do me the favor. Man I wasted a lot of years training, but at least I found the light...

So, now that you have officially won the argument.... (I hereby, officially declare you the winner!) What exactly did you win?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 28, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Alright... I am ready to learn now. I am ready to admit that, despite my own experience, and the testimony of half a dozen people here who have a couple hundred years of combined experience in the martial arts (I bet we have more combined experience training in Shotokan than you have been alive...) that I am wrong. Despite all these years training, you are correct sir... we have no idea how we train or what a typical class is like.
> 
> So please... enlighten me with your wealth of knowledge... I am now ready to learn, if you would do me the favor. Man I wasted a lot of years training, but at least I found the light...
> 
> So, now that you have officially won the argument.... (I hereby, officially declare you the winner!) What exactly did you win?


And a mere red belt.  He is a child protege!


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Alright... I am ready to learn now. I am ready to admit that, despite my own experience, and the testimony of half a dozen people here who have a couple hundred years of combined experience in the martial arts (I bet we have more combined experience training in Shotokan than you have been alive...) that I am wrong. Despite all these years training, you are correct sir... we have no idea how we train or what a typical class is like.



Your claims are not in line with the evidence so far. Nobody has been able to produce evidence of a pure Shotokan school under one of the main organisations conducting kicking drills against targets.

Based on the evidence so far, there is some variable here that you are not being upfront about.


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Possible alternative explanations:

You did not kick targets in your school, but did so on your free time.

You did not train in a pure Shotokan school but rather a hybridization.

You did it once a month and pretend as if it was every week.


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> And a mere red belt.  He is a child protege!



Only if you think rank denotes anything.


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

And you must have meant prodigy. A protege is simply a student of somebody.


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## wab25 (Aug 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Your claims are not in line with the evidence so far. Nobody has been able to produce evidence of a pure Shotokan school under one of the main organisations conducting kicking drills against targets.
> 
> Based on the evidence so far, there is some variable here that you are not being upfront about.





Acronym said:


> Possible alternative explanations:
> 
> You did not kick targets in your school, but did so on your free time.
> 
> ...



Like I said... you win. You are correct. Man I wish I could stop lying all the time... You know, its a conspiracy, the shotokan schools are lying to everyone about how they train and what they train... its part of their master plan to take over the world. Man, I bet you just ruined all their plans, now that you found us out... Wait, I might be lying about that too... maybe I am not even associated with shotokan.


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## Acronym (Aug 28, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Like I said... you win. You are correct. Man I wish I could stop lying all the time... You know, its a conspiracy, the shotokan schools are lying to everyone about how they train and what they train... its part of their master plan to take over the world. Man, I bet you just ruined all their plans, now that you found us out... Wait, I might be lying about that too... maybe I am not even associated with shotokan.



I'm still waiting to eat my shoe if you can produce tape of a class kicking things under one of the main orgs in a pure Shotokan school.


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## Buka (Aug 28, 2020)

Danny T said:


> Now you have moved the goal posts again.
> I'm responding to your question "Do you kick anything in your Shotokan or Goju Ryu kick training?"
> You wanted something on the internet I gave you something.
> You then want something with a class.
> ...



Danny, can you dig me up some training vids with guys wearing Quigley Down Under cowboy hats?

I really like Quigley Down Under cowboy hats.


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## Danny T (Aug 28, 2020)

Buka said:


> Danny, can you dig me up some training vids with guys wearing Quigley Down Under cowboy hats?
> 
> I really like Quigley Down Under cowboy hats.


Why...yes I ca...uhh...now I'm thinking you just joshing me.


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## Buka (Aug 28, 2020)




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## jks9199 (Aug 28, 2020)

Attention all users:

As this thread is devolving rapidly to variants of "did not!" "did too!", and people are treading rather close to the line of getting points, it's now locked.  I'm going to publicly note that trolling is against The Rules (4.1):
_No "Trolling": Please do not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Don't create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. This includes messages in profiles, signatures and/or posting comments, which will intimidate, promote or generate hatred or flames among members._​
jks9199
MT Administrator


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