# Nails, screws and screwdrivers



## Orsino (May 31, 2021)

Hi, 

New poster, I'm interested in people's opinions of masonry nails, screws, or micro screwdrivers held between the knuckles as an effective form of defense. 

For some context, when I was a young man I got in a lot of fights, I studied Muay-Thai for about a year, I was never anything special but I could take care of myself fairly well. But it's been nearly ten years since I was last in a real fight. I recently moved to a new area and got in an altercation with a young man who nearly drove his dirt-bike into my wife and baby. Turns out this young man is connected and by all accounts he's a tough piece of trash. He backed off from our first confrontation shouting threats as he rode away but he lives locally so I'm bound to run in to him again. I'm not at all confident of my ability to take him in a fight and whilst I plan to resume martial arts training I fear I may not have enough time for that to be effective. Particularly if he brings friends next time. 

I can't call the police as so far all he has done is ride a bike near my family and shout threats which the police won't care about. I need to find a way to even the odds but I'm in the UK so I can't legally carry a gun, knuckleduster, knife of any real size, or pepper spray. However I could carry a nail, screw or small screwdriver which seem like they could be effective weapons held between the second and third knuckle. Anyone have any experience with these as improvised weapons?


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## jobo (May 31, 2021)

Orsino said:


> Hi,
> 
> New poster, I'm interested in people's opinions of masonry nails, screws, or micro screwdrivers held between the knuckles as an effective form of defense.
> 
> ...


why not carry a large screwdriver ?


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## Orsino (May 31, 2021)

I guess I could carry a large screwdriver, but might be harder to justify in a court of law and potentially less practical as a larger screwdriver is difficult to conceal in summer clothing and can't be wielded in a punch. I'm serious about protecting my family with deadly force if necessary but I'd also very much like to avoid ending up in prison if at all possible.


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## jobo (May 31, 2021)

Orsino said:


> I guess I could carry a large screwdriver, but might be harder to justify in a court of law and potentially less practical as a larger screwdriver is difficult to conceal in summer clothing and can't be wielded in a punch. I'm serious about protecting my family with deadly force if necessary but I'd also very much like to avoid ending up in prison if at all possible.


there is  uk case law that a screw driver is NOT automatically an offensive weapon, you don't need to justify it

they make a really good club

but there a whole load of weapons you don't need to justify, how about a tin of spam in a carrier bag, i once knocked someone out cold with my lunch

how about a walking cane 






hell get a rounders bat and a tennis ball


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 1, 2021)

Orsino said:


> Hi,
> 
> New poster, I'm interested in people's opinions of masonry nails, screws, or micro screwdrivers held between the knuckles as an effective form of defense.
> 
> ...


Holding screws or nails between your fingers is a good way to tear up your own hands.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 1, 2021)

Orsino said:


> I guess I could carry a large screwdriver, but might be harder to justify in a court of law and potentially less practical as a larger screwdriver is difficult to conceal in summer clothing and can't be wielded in a punch. I'm serious about protecting my family with deadly force if necessary but I'd also very much like to avoid ending up in prison if at all possible.


I can't give legal advice, so this is strictly opinion.

First, whether you think so or not, this is definitely a situation for the police.  You can you can't call them because it doesn't rise to a certain standard, but I think you can.  Even if they cannot make an arrest, they can take a report.  It is important to document things as they happen.  You may need the police to back you up at some point.

Second, untrained people with weapons get them taken away and used against them.

Third, as mentioned by others, items clenched between your fingers, like screws, nails, or other concealable sharp things, don't work very well, primarly because they are unsupported by any physical structure like your wrist bone.  Hold a screw in that manner and punch a board.  You'll see.

As I said, I'm not giving legal advice, but I'd suggest that anything you choose to carry around with the intent to use it as a weapon IS A WEAPON.  At least in the US, it's not so much *what* the item is, it's the way you intend to and do use it.  I can carry around a golf club and claim it is just a golf club.  But if I'm not on the links and it's the only item of golfing gear I have and I've just brained a bad person with it, chances are the police are going to call it a weapon.  Whether I was justified in using it is another question, but it's a weapon if I use it like one.

I would say first, yes, begin training again.  It's just a good idea in general.  Notify the police, ask their advice, and take it.  And calm down.


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## Urban Trekker (Jun 1, 2021)

I have to disagree that untrained people with weapons get them taken away and used against them.  Spend a day watching some World Star Hip Hop, and tell me what percentage of the time this happens.

Nails and screws between the knuckles sounds like something that bored pre-teen boys talk about in the school cafeteria.  I'll admit that I was somewhat of a troublemaker during my pre-teen and teen years, and one kid that I used to mess with had put sharpened pencils between his knuckles on the school bus and said "If you touch me, I'm gonna get you with _this_!"

Now here's the funny thing: that actually appealed to my sense of pity for the kid, which is why I didn't mess with him when we got off the bus.  Did it scare me at all?  Nope.

Here's the truth: in the heat of the moment, even if you're the victim, you're not gonna stop to think to put small sharp objects between your knuckles.  Secondly, you're gonna end up grappling, more likely than not.  And when you do, those nails and screws are going to fall right out of your hands.  This is going to happen too soon into the fight for those nails and screws to even matter.

If that doesn't have you second guessing, then I suggest trying to punch a solid object with nails and screws between the knuckles.  See how accurately you'll be able to even land the points of these objects in the first place, and how your palms are going to feel even if you do.


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## frank raud (Jun 1, 2021)

In addition to the damage you will do to your own hands by attempting to use a nail or screw as a push dagger, there is the challenge of how do you carry it for quick access? If it's floating around loose in your pocket, access can be a challenge, not to mention poking yourself when you sit down or bend. If you rig up some kind of "sheath", going to be hard to explain "it's just a nail".  If you're going to walk down the street with it in your palm, hard to explain you're not carrying it as a weapon.


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## frank raud (Jun 1, 2021)

I don't claim to know British law, but here in Canada, anything used as a weapon can get you charged with assault with a deadly weapon. I know someone who was in a domestic argument, and hit her partner with a broom. It wasn't broken and turned into a stabbing object, it was a broom. She was charged and got a year probation and had to go to anger management classes. The broom wasn't a weapon before she picked it up, and it wasn't after she put it down, but when she hit him, it was classified as a weapon.


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## jobo (Jun 1, 2021)

frank raud said:


> I don't claim to know British law, but here in Canada, anything used as a weapon can get you charged with assault with a deadly weapon. I know someone who was in a domestic argument, and hit her partner with a broom. It wasn't broken and turned into a stabbing object, it was a broom. She was charged and got a year probation and had to go to anger management classes. The broom wasn't a weapon before she picked it up, and it wasn't after she put it down, but when she hit him, it was classified as a weapon.


if you hit someone it's a weapon,  by definition,  the law in the uk allows instant arming,  that is you can grab or use anything that comes to hand at the moment your under threat of attack, iif that's a broom handle that ok, provided the court accept that you were using it for self defence purposes,

randomly attack9ng your partner 9n a temper tantrum,  doesnt really count, though I'm not sure what sort of guys goes runn9ng to the police after being hit with a sweeping  brush

my ex threw everything in the house at me one night, literally everything she could pick up,fortunately she threw like a girl


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## Graywalker (Jun 1, 2021)

Just throw a bar in his spokes.


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## geezer (Jun 2, 2021)

jobo said:


> ....fortunately she threw like a girl


I'm appalled by that sexist comment. Some girls throw like a son-of-a-gun. Some punch and kick the same way.

Oh... wait. I said "son". That's probably sexist too. Oh the heck with it. 

Good post, Jobo!


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## geezer (Jun 2, 2021)

Orsino said:


> Turns out this young man is connected and by all accounts he's a tough piece of trash.


Well connected and tough?

Reality check. You have a wife and baby to think of. Even if they are OK, if something happens to _you_, it will be hard on them. I'd work on avoiding this guy, and de-escalating any conflicts when you do run into him.

Standing up for yourself and beating up a bully makes for a great movie scene, but in real life it's wise to avoid the drama.


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## wab25 (Jun 3, 2021)

Some people used to carry a roll of quarters to put in their hand to hit harder. Or you could go to the hardware store and buy a large bolt that you could carry completely inside your fist when you hit. The nice thing about that is that people won't see that you are using it. When the altercation is over, you could throw it down the gutter, or in the bushes when folks aren't looking... then go buy another bolt... Not that I would be suggesting anything of the sort...


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 3, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Some people used to carry a roll of quarters to put in their hand to hit harder. Or you could go to the hardware store and buy a large bolt that you could carry completely inside your fist when you hit. The nice thing about that is that people won't see that you are using it. When the altercation is over, you could throw it down the gutter, or in the bushes when folks aren't looking... then go buy another bolt... Not that I would be suggesting anything of the sort...


I think something that is often overlooked in situations like this is still training.  A roll of quarters, or actual brass knuckles, will enhance a good punch, but most people simply cannot throw a good punch.  That's why so many 'fight videos' between road ragers are nothing more than pushing, shoving, chasing each other around cars, slipping and falling down, losing their pants because we're so bloody fat, and wild haymakers that rarely if ever land with any effect.  Hitting harder doesn't help if you're unable to effectively hit in the first place.

Everybody wants a magic bullet, so to speak.  Some device they can pick up, easily conceal, the police won't mind you having it, and it will transform you from a meek pushover into the bully of the beach.  There is no such magic device, in my opinion.

Years ago, there was a kubaton craze.  Everybody had one on their keychains.  Not one non martial-arts person really knew how to use one, other than some vague notion of holding it in their balled up fist and waving it around a bit at bad guys.  Bruce Lee they ain't.


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## wab25 (Jun 3, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think something that is often overlooked in situations like this is still training.  A roll of quarters, or actual brass knuckles, will enhance a good punch, but most people simply cannot throw a good punch.  That's why so many 'fight videos' between road ragers are nothing more than pushing, shoving, chasing each other around cars, slipping and falling down, losing their pants because we're so bloody fat, and wild haymakers that rarely if ever land with any effect.  Hitting harder doesn't help if you're unable to effectively hit in the first place.
> 
> Everybody wants a magic bullet, so to speak.  Some device they can pick up, easily conceal, the police won't mind you having it, and it will transform you from a meek pushover into the bully of the beach.  There is no such magic device, in my opinion.
> 
> Years ago, there was a kubaton craze.  Everybody had one on their keychains.  Not one non martial-arts person really knew how to use one, other than some vague notion of holding it in their balled up fist and waving it around a bit at bad guys.  Bruce Lee they ain't.


I totally agree with everything you say. In my defense though, he did say that he had some training in a striking art and would be back to training soon. And the reason I suggested the roll of quarters thing, was because his past training was in striking...

But, yes, a tool is never a substitute for training.


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## Hanshi (Jun 8, 2021)

Holding *almost *anything between the fingers of a fist when punching will result in:  1. A weak punch.  2. A hole in the palm.  I walk with a cane and know how to use it.  I also carry knives or "environmental weapons".


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## Alan0354 (Jun 14, 2021)

Orsino said:


> Hi,
> 
> New poster, I'm interested in people's opinions of masonry nails, screws, or micro screwdrivers held between the knuckles as an effective form of defense.
> 
> ...


How about a long tactical flash light? I don't know the law in UK, it is quite legal if it is a flash light. I saw some 16" long flash light made of heavy aluminum. I can't give you the link as it's for US only, but I am sure you can find those in UK. Just check the law. 

I am 68, I carry a walking cane everywhere and I practice stick fight with it. Sounds like you are quite young, I don't know how that works in UK, just pretend to walk with a limp!!!!

To me, it's useless to have tiny screw driver.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 14, 2021)

For SD, the Baoding ball is better.

- It's legal to carry (for health).
- You can hold in your hands when you punch.
- You can throw at your opponent if needed.


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## Urban Trekker (Jun 14, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> For SD, the Baoding ball is better.
> 
> - It's legal to carry (for health).
> - You can hold in your hands when you punch.
> ...



You're probably better off with some knucks.  You know, something that's specifically designed for the job you're trying to do with those metal balls.

Brass and metal knuckles are illegal here in Virginia, but you can easily get around that by getting some knucks that are made of hard materials that are not metal.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 14, 2021)

jobo said:


> there is  uk case law that a screw driver is NOT automatically an offensive weapon, you don't need to justify it
> 
> they make a really good club
> 
> ...


Those are pictures of my canes!!! No wonder it looks so familiar!!! )
The picture show some with pads for hitting bags, this is a picture of the canes for self defense:




#1 is 1.1" diameter rattan with skin, about 11oz. Middle is the Cold Steel City stick with home made handle to look normal, it's about 13.5oz, it's very dense and hard. #3 is United Cutlery Nylon cane, it's 17oz. This is the one I am carrying everywhere.

I think cane is the best, just say you have gout pain on you foot!!! Only thing though, you still have to practice, can't just carry it out and hope for the best. Most of my posts here are talking about cane training and I spend a lot of time in the past 3 months on stick fighting.


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## Tez3 (Jun 18, 2021)

Phone 112 and inform the police, if he's 'connected' then he will be known to them. By informing the police you've set yourself up as the person who is legally defending himself. 
(This is the non emergency police number, it's actually very useful)

Don't automatically assume you are going to have a fight with him, this may actually start one.  Carrying a weapon can give you a false sense of security, and make you feel you have to use it. The other side of that is not being used to it and struggling to get it out of your pocket.

All knuckle dusters are illegal here.


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