# Martial Arts Pins



## Dwi Chugi (Jan 8, 2015)

I was teaching class last night and a conversation was sparked about pinning your attacker after throwing them.  I teach such pins because I used them when I worked security and they are part of the art that was shared with me. 

I would not use them in a self-defense situation now.  I would much rather throw and go or hit them and forget them, another words get out of the situation as fast as possible.  

I think locking someone on the ground could get you hurt and unless I am a LEO or security, why take the chance.  The only other situation would be a loved one out of control. Then I would so I would not hurt them with a throw or strike.  

What are your thoughts?


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 8, 2015)

I for one agree with you but I know there are some that advocate pinning in some manner


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## Dr.Smith (Jan 8, 2015)

I use some pin techniques, what ya wanna know?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 8, 2015)

As so often, the answer is... "it depends"...
What do you mean by "pin"? There are ways to restrain someone on the ground other than lying on top of them. 
How many other people are around? Are they likely to on your side, or the other? What's the surface like? What level of threat does the person pose?


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## jks9199 (Jan 8, 2015)

A lot depends on your purpose or goal, and the specifics of the situation.  LE and some security? Yep, they need to restrain and control a person.  But a private citizen? It just depends. What if the person you're trying to restrain is a mentally ill family member? Do you want to dump them on they skull and run? Probably not. How about the classic drunk buddy? What if you're at work, and it was a coworker who accidentally surprised you? Maybe you need a way to stop short of crippling them -- if you want to keep your job!

Your art contains them. Unless you've stepped out on your own, and are leaving the art behind as more than a starting point, part of the inherent "contract" is that you teach all of it -- even the stuff you don't see as quite so useful. It's there for a reason... even if just history.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 8, 2015)

On a side note... when I saw the title of this thread, I thought it was going to be about jewelry...


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## Tez3 (Jan 8, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> On a side note... when I saw the title of this thread, I thought it was going to be about jewelry...



Jewellery?      I thought of sewing or dressmaking where it's pinning the pieces to be sewn together.


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## Chris from CT (Jan 8, 2015)

Dwi Chugi said:


> I was teaching class last night and a conversation was sparked about pinning your attacker after throwing them.  I teach such pins because I used them when I worked security and they are part of the art that was shared with me.
> 
> I would not use them in a self-defense situation now.  I would much rather throw and go or hit them and forget them, another words get out of the situation as fast as possible.
> 
> ...



I would agree with you that unless I was an LEO or working security with a team trying to pin someone for a extended duration is not necessarily safe to do in a real world self defense situation.  To me, pins or secures are more to momentarily hold the opponent down long enough to be able to apply a finishing stroke in the appropriate situation.  That secondary opponent can show up out of nowhere.  Got to keep your head on a swivel.

Since we do teach pins, I did a video a while ago on a variation pin/secure that a lot of people do. I hope you find it interesting.
[YT]


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## Dr.Smith (Jan 8, 2015)

I like the scarf choke from any top position, of course the full neilson is a favorite of mine as well.  Ive also just used a hammer lock a time or two but a hammer lock is really more of a joint lock aimed at the shoulder kinda like a kimora or an americana.


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## drop bear (Jan 9, 2015)

Depends how hard it was to throw them. I would be upset if they just got back up.


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## Transk53 (Jan 9, 2015)

Dr.Smith said:


> I like the scarf choke from any top position, of course the full neilson is a favorite of mine as well.  Ive also just used a hammer lock a time or two but a hammer lock is really more of a joint lock aimed at the shoulder kinda like a kimora or an americana.



Not allowed to do the full nelson anymore, or anyway around the neck. Full nelson is great. Yeah if the bloke was repeatably slammed into a wall or something, but would to Google why it was banned.


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## Paul_D (Jan 9, 2015)

I would agree, just get yourself away and to safety, no point hanging around if its not necessary...


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Not allowed to do the full nelson anymore, or anyway around the neck. Full nelson is great. Yeah if the bloke was repeatably slammed into a wall or something, but would to Google why it was banned.




Where is it supposed to be banned?


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## Transk53 (Jan 9, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Where is it supposed to be banned?



Not sure then. I have been told by two ex head doors that was the case. Perhaps, rather than law, it just something that the BCRP down here stipulated that the hold is not a good one. I got told off more than once, and once by a rozzer. I work with one of the people concerned, so will ask him. It could just be as I say, something that is frowned upon only.


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 9, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> As so often, the answer is... "it depends"...
> What do you mean by "pin"? There are ways to restrain someone on the ground other than lying on top of them.
> How many other people are around? Are they likely to on your side, or the other? What's the surface like? What level of threat does the person pose?



Pretty much this.  

I would note that in the Hapkido I learned, many take downs involved a pin.  But unlike the one demonstrated above, the pin would involve a manipulation that prevented an opponent from taking any aggressive action without doing damage to himself.  The pin would usually be followed up with an attack, such as a strike or cut with the opponent's knife.  We would never lie on someone for a pin, but in the right situation as some have mentioned, that might be a viable response.


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## KydeX (Jan 9, 2015)

In Bujinkan we use pinning quite a lot to control an opponent. Usually with their face and stomach down, and me still standing or kneeling. If you take somebody down, it is a good way to prevent them from just getting back up and attacking you again. However, like others say, it would depend on the situation. Sometimes it might be better to start running after the throw /takedown. If there are multiple attackers I would not want to stay stationary with my limbs occupied. 

I would not go completely to the ground myself unless somebody takes me down.


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## Transk53 (Jan 9, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> Pretty much this.
> 
> I would note that in the Hapkido I learned, many take downs involved a pin.  But unlike the one demonstrated above, the pin would involve a manipulation that prevented an opponent from taking any aggressive action without doing damage to himself.  The pin would usually be followed up with an attack, such as a strike or cut with the opponent's knife.  *We would never lie on someone for a pin, but in the right situation as some have mentioned, that might be a viable response.*



Can be, but I don't know that in a civilian situation. Generally, take down and pin, then lock up if there is resistance. If they do resist, then the leg straps come out. Either for arrest, or to be transported to arrest. I must point though, this is still pretty rare, and involves multiple door staff. Again though, where I am is quite benign compared to other places in the UK. So this is not a generalization. In fact I worked with a scouser once and he said on his first night that he felt like he was in Mothercare (babies clothes shop) lol.


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 9, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Where is it supposed to be banned?



I had never heard that myself so I googled it and found this Nelson hold - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia on Wikipedia, where towards the bottom, in talking about the Full Nelson, it says the following:  

"The full nelson (sometimes called a double nelson or a double shoulder lock) is done by performing half nelsons with both arms. *In collegiate, high school, middle school/junior high school, and most other forms of amateur wrestling, the move is illegal. *The holder is on the back side of the opponent, and has his or her hands extended upwards under the opponents armpits, holding the neck with a palm-to-palm grip or with interlaced fingers. By cranking the hands forward, pressure can be applied to the neck of the opponent. The usage of the full nelson in combat sports is very limited. It is a secure hold which can be used to control the opponent, but does not allow for finishing action, such as pinning the opponent, executing a reliable submission hold, or allowing for effective striking.[2] Because it can be used as a limited neck crank, it is considered dangerous in some grappling arts, and is banned, for instance, in amateur wrestling."  

I bolded the pertinent portion.

As I said, I had never heard that.  I seem to recall seeing it applied in the professional wrestling I used to watch on TV when I was a kid.  I know in the Hapkido I learned, we had effective defenses against the full nelson.


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## K-man (Jan 9, 2015)

Here's one we use.




It can also be done just holding the wrist in a nikyo grip without the leg involvement.


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2015)

K-man said:


> Here's one we use.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That and similar are the ones I've been taught. Anything involving 'lying' on a person or even kneeling doesn't work for me against larger people which frankly is most people. Our instructor teaches control and restraint techniques separately from self defence or MMA, and the techniques will vary depending on the needs of the students ie medical staff or security personnel. He will teach control and restraint for carers and mental health staff too which also differs in techniques and attitude needed. He's well qualified to do so though.


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## Danny T (Jan 9, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> That and similar are the ones I've been taught. Anything involving 'lying' on a person or even kneeling doesn't work for me against larger people which frankly is most people. Our instructor teaches control and restraint techniques separately from self defence or MMA, and the techniques will vary depending on the needs of the students ie medical staff or security personnel. He will teach control and restraint for carers and mental health staff too which also differs in techniques and attitude needed. He's well qualified to do so though.


LEO's operate under different SOP's as do Medical security staff. Their rules of engagement and technique applications are quite different than a 'regular' citizen in a combative self-defense situation.


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## Dwi Chugi (Jan 9, 2015)

Hello, 

When I say pin, I mean less scarf hold (Which I would probably stay away from in a street defense) and more like the two video's posted above where you are locking someone's wrist or arm.  However, I do love me a scarf hold when I am on the mat.

My argument is if I am in a street fight, I am not going to try to control them on the ground.  There are no referee's in a street fight and lets face it, they most likely will not tap and go on there merry way.

I would say in a street fight, where I am with a loved one and someone attacks, I would first try to throw them so violently that they do not get up and I get away or strike them to where they either go to sleep or back off.  

If it is someone I know, (the drunk friend or family member) then pins or locks are what I would aim for.  When I worked security, I never threw or hit anyone.  It was always a wrist or elbow lock and an escort to the front door where local LEO would give them a trespass notice. I worked on a Psych Unit as well where locks came in handy.  

Thank you for all your reply's and the two videos.


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## drop bear (Jan 9, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> I had never heard that myself so I googled it and found this Nelson hold - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia on Wikipedia, where towards the bottom, in talking about the Full Nelson, it says the following:
> 
> "The full nelson (sometimes called a double nelson or a double shoulder lock) is done by performing half nelsons with both arms. *In collegiate, high school, middle school/junior high school, and most other forms of amateur wrestling, the move is illegal. *The holder is on the back side of the opponent, and has his or her hands extended upwards under the opponents armpits, holding the neck with a palm-to-palm grip or with interlaced fingers. By cranking the hands forward, pressure can be applied to the neck of the opponent. The usage of the full nelson in combat sports is very limited. It is a secure hold which can be used to control the opponent, but does not allow for finishing action, such as pinning the opponent, executing a reliable submission hold, or allowing for effective striking.[2] Because it can be used as a limited neck crank, it is considered dangerous in some grappling arts, and is banned, for instance, in amateur wrestling."
> 
> ...



depends how it is put on. If you let them get a neck crank it can be real trouble to get out of.


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## Buka (Jan 9, 2015)

Dwi Chugi said:


> I was teaching class last night and a conversation was sparked about pinning your attacker after throwing them.  I teach such pins because I used them when I worked security and they are part of the art that was shared with me.
> 
> I would not use them in a self-defense situation now.  I would much rather throw and go or hit them and forget them, another words get out of the situation as fast as possible.
> 
> ...



My thoughts....pretty much the same as yours.


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## Brian King (Jan 9, 2015)

Depending on the situation, pins can be used while de-escalating the situation. Pin's can also be used effectively to search and disarm prior to de-escalation. Pin's and the resistance to or escape from can also serve as justification of upping the use of force. Not good for all situations but good for some. Your mileage may vary.

Regards
Brian King


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## Transk53 (Jan 9, 2015)

Brian King said:


> Depending on the situation, pins can be used while de-escalating the situation. Pin's can also be used effectively to search and disarm prior to de-escalation. Pin's and the resistance to or escape from can also serve as justification of upping the use of force. Not good for all situations but good for some. Your mileage may vary.
> 
> Regards
> Brian King



Yes. From my viewpoint mainly, but good post.


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## Raymond (Jan 22, 2015)

My personal take is that pinning techniques to the nature of scarf hold or north/south position are very important to a well rounded martial artists.  There can be many times you need to control or restrain someone that you do not want to use a joint lock or joint break on such as someone with a physical or mental handicap.

I know the traditional Hapkido practitioner will likely view a "pin" as something like this












And those are very strong restraining techniques due to the pain the of the lock, I think that pinning techniques we may view as "more sportive" are important as well because they offer full dominating control without injury and if you do a competant level of grappling in your curriculum you will be able to seamlessly transition from various pins without ever losing control of the battle.  






I also think that a martial art should grow and evolve to address the combative needs of the current time's culture of fighting.  With many brazilian jiujitsu white and blue belts out there, and high school wrestlers, just being aware of pinning techniques like this are also important to self defense.  I'm not a military general, but I think that one military will always want to understand the type of weaponry their enemies may use against them.  Martial art shouldn't be any different.  Also, I don't think pinning techniques like scarf hold or side mount violate the principals and values of Hapkido.  But I am also very thankful and interested in the Hapkido traditionalists that prefer to practice the art as closely to what Dojunim Choi taught, and I unfortunately have no way to know if he taught any pins that be also found commonly in Judo or various forms of jiujitsu.


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## drop bear (Jan 22, 2015)

Easier to punch them in the face from scarf hold


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## Raymond (Jan 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Easier to punch them in the face from scarf hold



Do you mean for the top person or the bottom person?  I personally would probably not punch from scarf hold top as I would not want to risk giving up position.


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## drop bear (Jan 22, 2015)

Raymond said:


> Do you mean for the top person or the bottom person?  I personally would probably not punch from scarf hold top as I would not want to risk giving up position.



from the top position. And it is pretty low risk of them getting out.

So you basically get free punching.


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## Raymond (Jan 22, 2015)

Suh Bok Sup, Choi's first student in Korea, was a black belt in Judo and Judo has pinning techniques (one method of winning Judo competitions even).  I wonder how much, if any, pinning techniques such as scarf hold he taught when instructing Hapkido.


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