# Combat Hapkido vs Sin Moo Hapkido



## yorkshirelad

I saw the title of this thread on another forum yesterday. Some Sin Moo guy was saying rather nasty things about Gm Pelligrini and about the time it took him to reach 9th Dan.
I have never met Mr Pelligrini, but I must say that his new book on Combat HKD is one of the most honest and refreshing martial arts reads that I've ever read.
My own HKD instructor in Ireland became 4th Dan in Sin Moo Hapkido in '92 after a 4 day course. That's right from no knowledge of HKD to 4th Dan in 4 days. Before that he was an outstanding kickboxer and 4th dan in Kyukoshinkai Karate. He is now 9th Dan. That's right 18 tears training in HKD and he's 9th Dan. Funnily enough, that's the same rank progression as Gm Pelligrini. The only difference is that Gm Pelligrini tested for 1st-3rd dan also. Now I am not slating anyone. My Hapkido instructor is an amazing practitioner. I really enjoyed training with him, so much so that I took private classes 4x per week and every group class. My work mate and I would do all our private classes together and while working nights, we would train there too, we enjoyed it that much. And, due to our constant, everyday (for multiple hours) training and previous martial arts experience, we tested for chodan in only 5 months.
That being said, I can't understand why anyone would have a problem with Gm Pelligrini's rank. He has progressed at a slower level through the ranks that many Sin Moo practitioners. I like what he has done in making Hapkido accessible to everyone by taking out the high, impractical kicks and the meditation/ki development and has left it up to the individual what they emphasize (military combatives, police defensive tactics, ASP ect). I like it so much that I am seriously considering joining his association.
The other complaint about Gm Pelligrini on the other forum was that he is all about the money. Well, yes he does have DVDs for sale, but they are cheap compared to many associations and his association dues are reasonable too. Maybe the complainant means that he is cashing in on the vast numbers joining GmP's association, but if this is the case, surely he is offering a product that people want and are happy with. I'm all about capitallistic endevours.


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## dortiz

I thank god everyday for my teacher and my Kwan!!


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## MasterPistella

I've heard the complaints about GM Pallegrini's rank also. My feeling is who cares? If he can deliver, then deliver. I also happened to go to a camp a few months back & a friend of mine introduced me to a new student of his who got cho dan under GM P & just switched to Sin Moo. She said that after looking at both, she felt SM had more to offer. To each his own. I have found him to be a very nice man & great once you get him in a social setting. Enjoyed a party with him in the Poconos a few years ago.

Either way, good luck to everyone with their training.

JP


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## dancingalone

If someone doesn't like his hapkido, fine.  That's at least a good reason to criticize the man.  Not sure any Korean stylist should be yanking chains about Pelligrini's rank however.  If you delve back far enough, many if not the majority of Korean systems have cloudy beginnings.


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## Daniel Sullivan

In my opinion, any rank above fifth is administrative and to a degree, honorary (in most arts).  Few arts have new material beyond fourth or fifth dan.  Rank at that point is about time in grade and what one does for the art.  Often promotion of the art, running schools, etc. 

Considering that the kyu/dan system is a fairly recent innovation, was  made for competition bracketing, and was not even Korean to begin with, I think that we get way too caught up with it.  If you are not the guy running the class, then you are the student.  If you don't like the guy running the class, go find another class.  That pretty much sums it up.

GM. Pelligrini is an organizational head.  That is really all that matters.  Whatever rank he is, be it eighth or ninth degree, or whatever, doesn't matter.  It's his org.  If you like what he has to offer and how his organization is put together, then his rank shouldn't be an issue.  If you don't like what he has to offer or how his organization is put together, then his rank still isn't an issue because you won't be a part of it anyway.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> If someone doesn't like his hapkido, fine.  That's at least a good reason to criticize the man.  Not sure any Korean stylist should be yanking chains about Pelligrini's rank however.  If you delve back far enough, many if not the majority of Korean systems have cloudy beginnings.


Indeed.  Let's try to find some hard validation of Choi Yong Sul's background in DRAJ before going ape about GMP.  Whatever his background was, he had an effective art that people asked him to teach.

And lets not forget about stories of magic jetliners.  You know, the ones that you board as a third dan, fly to another country, and leave the plane as a ninth dan.

Daniel


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## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And lets not forget about stories of magic jetliners. You know, the ones that you board as a third dan, fly to another country, and leave the plane as a ninth dan.Daniel


 
I wish I could find the article where GMP said that in an interview and it started a whole lot of negativity against him and his art..


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## Daniel Sullivan

Of course.  Nobody wants their fabrications or embellishments challenged.

Daniel


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## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Of course. Nobody wants their fabrications or embellishments challenged.
> 
> Daniel


 
How true..


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## Kumbajah

The problem shouldn't be what rank he is, he is the founder of is own system - he's beyond rank. He could claim 1000th dan, if he chose.

Also, the rank he has received was given by traditional Hapkido organizations - so if the rank is not deserved the blame is on them as well. 

The only way this is a problem that I see, is that the rank is seen as proof of ability and as a representation of authority. "Of course you should learn form him! He's a 9th dan!" 

He may do COMBAT hapkido really well but traditional Hapkido, not so much. To the uninitiated CHKD and THKD, may be thought of, as the same. It is misleading. Although, It's only confusing to people that don't know good traditional hapkido. 

He could have saved himself a lot of grief from Trad HKD buy calling his art something else. I don't think anyone would care about him if he had done that. As soon as he steps on the mat, his ability (or lack thereof) is evident . 

I wouldn't sweat it - there are many people practicing bad budo - can't save them all.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> The problem shouldn't be what rank he is, he is the founder of is own system - he's beyond rank. He could claim 1000th dan, if he chose.


Absolutely.



Kumbajah said:


> Also, the rank he has received was given by traditional Hapkido organizations - so if the rank is not deserved the blame is on them as well.


Again, absolutely.



Kumbajah said:


> The only way this is a problem that I see, is that the rank is seen as proof of ability and as a representation of authority. "Of course you should learn form him! He's a 9th dan!"


There seem to be so many self appointed gudans out there that I'm not sure that being one has the impact that it once did.  Of course the other issue is gudan in what?  If your gudan in Haedong Geomdo, but I want to learn karate, your gudan is unimportant.  

That of course brings us to this...



Kumbajah said:


> He may do COMBAT hapkido really well but traditional Hapkido, not so much. To the uninitiated CHKD and THKD, may be thought of, as the same. It is misleading. Although, It's only confusing to people that don't know good traditional hapkido.


I think that most people see the COMBAT prefix and know that it is not traditional hapkido.  And anyone who is unsure will be quickly corrected, as he not only makes no pretense of being traditional, he outright states that he is not.



Kumbajah said:


> He could have saved himself a lot of grief from Trad HKD buy calling his art something else.


Again, absolutely.  

The question is this: is there enough of a connection to whatever traditional system he learned in, or to traditional hapkido in general, that the term is still accurate? 



Kumbajah said:


> I don't think anyone would care about him if he had done that. As soon as he steps on the mat, his ability (or lack thereof) is evident.


People would care about him if he were making money with his DVD's and such.  Especially if they are not.  If he did everything exactly the same and called it, "Combat Striking and Grappling" instead,the same people would have their noses rubbed the wrong way, mainly because he would still be claiming a hapkido background and would have said all of the same things regarding the things that he did to make his system not-traditional.

And again, I agree: his ability is evident once he is on the mat.



Kumbajah said:


> I wouldn't sweat it - there are many people practicing bad budo - can't save them all.


Whether or not it is bad is, as you said, unrelated to his rank.  Though technically, being called hapkido, it isn't budo.

Daniel


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## Kumbajah

I like the alliteration of "Bad Budo" rather than "bad mudo" - that sounds like you are scolding a dog  

I don't think the money is the issue - most traditional HKD instructors don't have DVD's for sale. GM P puts his CHKD as an improvement on THKD - it's laughable when viewing the HKD part of his curriculum. He's just not skilled at THKD. So using the name Hapkido name is offputting. He can't do the THKD how is he going to improve it? 

Also, If CHKD is so great, call it something else. Take pride in your "new" invention. Apparently Hapkido is flawed and needed improvement.  Why would you want to associate with "old and cruddy THKD?"   

Anyway if people want to pay for his "instruction" - as the saying goes "You can't cheat an honest man."


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## Daniel Sullivan

Now I know what to name my next dog.

As for the rest, to quote Granfire, I have no dog in this race.  

I have watched some videos on Youtube and I simply assume that what he is doing is his own thing with some sort of HKD connection.  I also watched a CHKD yidan grading that did not feature GMP and looked like less of a demo and more like what I would expect to see in an actual school.  

As far as content, there were some similarities with what we do at our dojang, but it was different enough that I would consider it a different system.  Given how different two karate systems can be, yet both still be considered karate, I really don't care if he calls it CHKD or GMPHKD.  I only know that it isn't the HKD that I have been taught.  None of the techniques looked like made up nonsense or larping.  They looked like functional techniques that if practiced consistently with resisting opponents would likely serve one well if the need to use them ever arose.

As far as what I saw in terms of execution, the grading video looked like about what I'd expect for an average ildan testing for a yidan in the average commercial school.  Take that as you will.  As far as GMP goes, all of the videos that I saw were demo videos with a soundtrack and GMP performing a series of locks, strikes, takedowns, submissions, and weapon disarms of various sorts, all while wearing a stars and stripes dobok or military fatigues.  








Yes, there was a certain coolness factor to it, but it was a demo, so that is expected.  His execution didn't raise my eyebrows for the selection of techniques that he displayed, though his footwork was decidedly different from what I am used to.  I cannot say if this was due to a footwork issue or him wearing shoes, or him doing it that way on purpose.  I generally reserve a final judgment until seeing the person demo it live and in person, and if possible, with me (though I don't know how likely that is with a well known name such as him).     

Daniel


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## yorkshirelad

Kumbajah said:


> I don't think the money is the issue - most traditional HKD instructors don't have DVD's for sale.  quote]
> Ji Han Jae, Bong Su Han, Jurg Zeigler, Kwang Sik Myung, Mike Wollerhauser all have or had videos/DVDs for sale. In fact Do Ju Nim Ji's website is entirely dedicated to DVD sales.


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## Kumbajah

And that constitutes a majority (most) how? And you've heard them bash GM P when?

BTW - 3 of those people have died. The other 2 are Sin Moo.


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## dortiz

Daniel,
Demos should be the best. Things to look for though
Three core principles : Hwa/Won/Yu, "not being employed". Circles, he enters and does techniques in a very linear matter. basics, instead of pushing to the ground with force one should rotate out etc.
 Non resistence, again very linear force on force entries, strikes and blocks.
 Water, very key to taking balance and redirecting. enveloping the person. His techniques are so far out that a real person will have their balance and strength to resist.
Footwork as you mentioned tells a lot. Traditionally the lower belts do a technique and take about 5 steps, the higher belts 3 but the Black Belts should be able to take 2 or 1 and many cases none. Its huge indicator of skill in unbalancing and controlling the other persons energy which you are using versus creating your own all over the place.
I am not saying good or bad ...these are just important things in good HKD for anyone thats looking ; )


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## yorkshirelad

Kumbajah said:


> And that constitutes a majority (most) how? And you've heard them bash GM P when?
> 
> BTW - 3 of those people have died. The other 2 are Sin Moo.


I can't understand why you feel selling DVDs is wrong. If you do think it is wrong, then do the people who were Hapkido pioneers get a pass by you because they have died? 

The title of the thread is Combat Hapkido vs Sin Moo Hapkido, so why wouldn't I mention Sin Moo DVD salesmen, namely Ji Han Jae and Jurg Zeigler?

Of course, the people I mentioned, who also DVDs were the people I just remembered off hand. There are plenty more traditional Hapkido masters who have/do sell DVDs.

Oh and BTW, I have heard one very high ranking Sin Moo Hapkido teacher bash Gm Pelligrini and this particular guy also seel DVDs, but not quite so many as Gm P.


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## Kumbajah

yorkshirelad said:


> I can't understand why you feel selling DVDs is wrong. If you do think it is wrong, then do the people who were Hapkido pioneers get a pass by you because they have died?
> 
> The title of the thread is Combat Hapkido vs Sin Moo Hapkido, so why wouldn't I mention Sin Moo DVD salesmen, namely Ji Han Jae and Jurg Zeigler?
> 
> Of course, the people I mentioned, who also DVDs were the people I just remembered off hand. There are plenty more traditional Hapkido masters who have/do sell DVDs.
> 
> Oh and BTW, I have heard one very high ranking Sin Moo Hapkido teacher bash Gm Pelligrini and this particular guy also seel DVDs, but not quite so many as Gm P.



It's not about the DVDs - that's the point - Most Hapkido Masters and practitioners don't have a DVD series so thats not their issue with CHKD. I was only pointing out they are dead to show they aren't bashing GM P. They can't - they're dead. 

As for the rest of us slobs - we don't bash GM P because he makes money but because he isn't very good at hapkido. And he in turn says that HKD needed improvement. He can't do the art that he says he's improving. 

It's actually pretty funny if you can step back from it.


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## goingd

My problem is not with GM P. system or its substance, or even so much with his rank. I take issue, though, mostly with this rhetoric presented by Combat Hapkido that seems to demonize Traditional Hapkido.


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## yorkshirelad

Kumbajah said:


> It's not about the DVDs - that's the point - Most Hapkido Masters and practitioners don't have a DVD series so thats not their issue with CHKD. I was only pointing out they are dead to show they aren't bashing GM P. They can't - they're dead.
> 
> As for the rest of us slobs - we don't bash GM P because he makes money but because he isn't very good at hapkido. And he in turn says that HKD needed improvement. He can't do the art that he says he's improving.
> 
> It's actually pretty funny if you can step back from it.


Ah, I get it now. I didn't quite understand your point about DVDs and deceased Hapkido master. If he said that Traditional Hapkido needs to be improved, then I would agree with him. Not that I think there is anything wrong with Traditional Hapkido, but because I believe that anything of value can be improved (except Jessica Biel's bod and claim Jumper 9 layer chocolate cake). 

If he said that Combat Hapkido is the improved version of Traditional Hapkido, thern maybe that is the case for him. Nobody develops an art and then claims that it is inferior to its predecessor. I'm sure that when Ji developed Sin Moo, he thought that it was superior to the Yawara that Choi taught him and I'm sure that Joo Bang Lee thought that Hwarangdo was also superior. I'm convinced that my training methods are far superior to all you guys who post on Martialtalk ( just kidding, don't want to piss off Daniel, he's a big guy who's used to sticking his foot in people's faces).


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## dortiz

Just so the outside folks have reference point:


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## Daniel Sullivan

goingd said:


> My problem is not with GM P. system or its substance, or even so much with his rank. I take issue, though, mostly with this rhetoric presented by Combat Hapkido that seems to demonize Traditional Hapkido.


Demonizing (or at least criticizing) "traditional" arts is fairly commonplace these days, particularly when one is trying to set their system apart as being "realistic" or "King in the ring" or "for the street" or any of the other various marketing ploys used to make a system stand out.

When one is trying to make a living, the incentive to do so is even greater.  No, I don't defend it, but I do recognize it.  We can all thank Bruce Lee for starting that particular tradition.  I try to separate what is said by the system founder about other arts from the content of their system.

Now, to be fair, I have read only a couple of interviews with GMP, and I did not observe him demonizing traditional hapkido.  Not saying that he hasn't; I just haven't read enough of his interviews to have made that observation.

Speaking of traditional hapkido and rank (the subject of the OP), what tradition did he come up through and attain rank in?  And how much of that is retained in his CHKD?

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

dortiz said:


> Daniel,
> Demos should be the best. Things to look for though
> Three core principles : Hwa/Won/Yu, "not being employed". Circles, he enters and does techniques in a very linear matter. basics, instead of pushing to the ground with force one should rotate out etc.
> Non resistence, again very linear force on force entries, strikes and blocks.
> Water, very key to taking balance and redirecting. enveloping the person. His techniques are so far out that a real person will have their balance and strength to resist.
> Footwork as you mentioned tells a lot. Traditionally the lower belts do a technique and take about 5 steps, the higher belts 3 but the Black Belts should be able to take 2 or 1 and many cases none. Its huge indicator of skill in unbalancing and controlling the other persons energy which you are using versus creating your own all over the place.
> I am not saying good or bad ...these are just important things in good HKD for anyone thats looking ; )


Agreed.  I have withheld judgment until I hear whether or not he has some philosophy behind what he does.

The direct and linear approach, while not bad (works well in Shotokan), is not characteristic of hapkido.  His locks and such are all things that look familiar, though they are not attained in a way characteristic of hapkido.  

His footwork is definitely not characteristic of hapkido, but since I have not heard whether or not he has a reason for the difference, I have not judged it to be "good" or "bad", but simply not characteristic of hapkido.

Some of his leaning out and entering into grapples from a forward position I am not inclined towards.  Once he has control, I will say that he redirects quite well, but he definitely leans more than I have been taught to.

This leads me to the question of how his system and his execution of it would be viewed were it unlabeled and not being compared to established hapkido kwans.  Would it stand up on its own?  If you learned his system and to perform it the way that he does, would you be able to apply it in an SD situation?  Even if you are an average Joe with no military or law enforcement background and in the typical condition of the average person?

Another question is whether or not his system, though different from 'traditional' hapkido systems still retains enough to be truly called hapkido.  Or is it like the guy who puts 'karate' on his sign because if he calls it something else, nobody will come through the door.

One last question to everyone: how come nobody participates in this forum unless CHKD is brought up?  And then the discussions generally get contentious.  

This is the main reason that I remain as neutral as possible in these discussions.  There are already plenty of ardent supporters and determined detractors.  I have nothing to lose or gain in the outcome of GMP debates.  I do have my own opinion of what I have seen in the demos, some of which I have voiced above.  The rest I keep to myself, as it is mostly second hand.  

Daniel


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## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Agreed.  I have withheld judgment until I  hear whether or not he has some philosophy behind what he does.
> 
> The direct and linear approach, while not bad (works well in Shotokan),  is not characteristic of hapkido.  His locks and such are all things  that look familiar, though they are not attained in a way characteristic  of hapkido.
> 
> His footwork is definitely not characteristic of hapkido, but since I  have not heard whether or not he has a reason for the difference, I have  not judged it to be "good" or "bad", but simply not characteristic of  hapkido.
> 
> Some of his leaning out and entering into grapples from a forward  position I am not inclined towards.  Once he has control, I will say  that he redirects quite well, but he definitely leans more than I have  been taught to.



I have a review of the first 2 Combat  Hapkido videos I have been working on in desultory fashion.  It  addresses some of the points you have brought up.

I'm inclined to  think that Pelligrini has been influenced by some of things done in  wrestling or sambo or even BJJ, which explains some of his footwork and  especially some of his crouch entries.



> This leads me to the question of how his system and his execution of it  would be viewed were it unlabeled and not being compared to established  hapkido kwans.  Would it stand up on its own?



I  think it stands even labeled as hapkido.  It is a recognized hapkido  style by the Kidohae, correct?  That seems pretty definitive to me even  if there are some key differences in execution principles displayed by  Pelligrini himself.  I liken it to isshinryu karate.  No one would  question that isshinryu is an Okinawan karate style, although it looks  quite different from many other karate styles.



> If you  learned his system and to perform it the way that he does, would you be  able to apply it in an SD situation?  Even if you are an average Joe  with no military or law enforcement background and in the typical  condition of the average person?



I am leaking a bit  from my review, but in my opinion, yes.  Whether a purist would want to  call it "hapkido" or not may be up to debate, but I have played with the  beginning material in Combat Hapkido with a couple of partners and I  was able to make it work.  My partners had a bit more trouble but I also  chalk that up to their lack of experience in the grabbing arts.  I have  12+ years in Aikido, so obviously that helps.



> Another question is whether or not his system, though different from  'traditional' hapkido systems still retains enough to be truly called  hapkido.  Or is it like the guy who puts 'karate' on his sign because if  he calls it something else, nobody will come through the door.



If  the Kidohae is willing to call it hapkido, who are we to object?  It  may be a monetary arrangement, but I am willing to accept the Kidohae as  an authority on the surface.



> One last question to everyone: how come nobody participates in this  forum unless CHKD is brought up?  And then the discussions generally get  contentious.



That's something that crossed my mind  too as I viewed this thread.  Even the tai chi forum here gets more  regular play than the hapkido forum.  I guess the members here don't  have anything to say?



> This is the main reason that I remain as neutral as possible in these  discussions.  There are already plenty of ardent supporters and  determined detractors.  I have nothing to lose or gain in the outcome of  GMP debates.  I do have my own opinion of what I have seen in the  demos, some of which I have voiced above.  The rest I keep to myself, as  it is mostly second hand.



I don't mind saying I consider CH in a generally  positive light.  I am not a hapkidoist so all the stylistic purity stuff  is of no import to me.  I'm willing to look at CH on purely its own  merits without having to see a reflection of what I think hapkido is, so  that undoubtedly helps.  I believe CH can be useful as a vehicle to  learn some effective self-defense skills.


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## dancingalone

goingd said:


> My problem is not with GM P. system or its substance, or even so much with his rank. I take issue, though, mostly with this rhetoric presented by Combat Hapkido that seems to demonize Traditional Hapkido.



??? I haven't read many CH articles admittedly, but Pelligrini generally comes off well in the ones I have read in Black Belt magazine and such.  Do you have any links to where he has said something uncomplimentary about traditional hapkido?  Obviously, he'll think his system is an improvement, but I can't see him saying something controversial like "Traditional hapkido is awful".


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## Daniel Sullivan

The only thing that I have seen him say that I can remember off the top of my head is that his system is hapkido without traditional trappings or classical stances.  Personally, I think that it is such an ambiguous statement that I find it hard to take offense.  It is also silly.  The man poses for pictures in a dobok and a black belt and his system uses belts and a kyu/dan based grading system, all of which are traditional trappings.  

As for classical stances, this comment seems designed to appeal to the uninformed person who still thinks that traditional stylists spend their time fighting in rigid stances, or aimed at the person who has been in classes where classical stances are taught in a static fashion and unconnected to actual fighting.  

Obviously, he is using different stances and footwork, so without a reference point as to why he does so, and without having seen him move in person, I withhold making a public judgment of his system or ability.  Thank you for providing a possible reference point, but I would like to hear one from someone who does CHKD, or a quote from GMP regarding the specifics of what he actually does, rather than his comments about what he has "stripped away."

Daniel


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## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As for classical stances, this comment seems designed to appeal to the uninformed person who still thinks that traditional stylists spend their time fighting in rigid stances, or aimed at the person who has been in classes where classical stances are taught in a static fashion and unconnected to actual fighting.



That's surely part of it.  In looking at his ads in Black Belt magazine, I really think he's marketing to some extent the target audience I think Combat Hapkido can be ideal for:  sport karate/TKD schools who could benefit from a re-injection of self-defense content.  Part of this can mean occasionally talking the Bruce Lee non-traditionalist talk or giving off a gruff MMA-type 'whatever works' attitude.  

Krav Maga people do and say some of the same things, but no one from the Korean martial arts is offended by them because they're not hapkido.



> I would like to hear one from someone who does CHKD, or a quote from GMP regarding the specifics of what he actually does, rather than his comments about what he has "stripped away."



Drac seems to be the only member here who trains CH.  There was another gentleman named Terry L? for a couple of threads last year, but he seems to have dropped  off.  Are there any more active hapkido forums?  It would be interesting if there was some official CH forum out there where one could ask this very question.


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## Drac

dancingalone said:


> ??? I haven't read many CH articles admittedly, but Pelligrini generally comes off well in the ones I have read in Black Belt magazine and such. Do you have any links to where he has said something uncomplimentary about traditional hapkido? Obviously, he'll think his system is an improvement, but I can't see him saying something controversial like "Traditional hapkido is awful".


 
Having spent a great deal of time in his presence I have *NEVER* heard him say anything negative about any other discipline or Grandmaster, Master,Sensei,Sifu, Founder or Soke..


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## Daniel Sullivan

Regarding Krav Maga, someone had told me that it was based on hapkido, but I have no source for that, so I won't make a case.  Just a curiosity.  

As for the marketing, I completely agree with you.

Regarding other posters or a CHKD forum, Terry L dropped off because every thread that he started ended up being trolled and getting locked, and comments directed to him seemed to get personal in nature.  I think he just got frustrated.  Drac's input would be welcome.  As for a CHKD forum, yes, I could go on one and ask, but I am more interested in the quality of the conversations on *this* forum.

Daniel


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## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Regarding Krav Maga, someone had told me that it was based on hapkido, but I have no source for that, so I won't make a case. Just a curiosity.
> 
> As for the marketing, I completely agree with you.
> 
> Regarding other posters or a CHKD forum, Terry L dropped off because every thread that he started ended up being trolled and getting locked, and comments directed to him seemed to get personal in nature. I think he just got frustrated. Drac's input would be welcome. As for a CHKD forum, yes, I could go on one and ask, but I am more interested in the quality of the conversations on *this* forum.
> 
> Daniel


 
I dont post too often when the topic of CH or GMP is the center of attention..Like TerryL I get frustrated too, with the ignorant statements.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> I don't think the money is the issue - most traditional HKD instructors don't have DVD's for sale.


Not agreeing or disagreeing, but one need not have videos for sale to be bothered by, or to be jealous of, someone who does.  

Plenty of people have made comments about how anyone who makes a living teaching martial arts or charges anything above what is needed to maintain a club as a non profit is somehow a fraud.  Obviously, these people do not have commercial schools, and are often students who have some weird notions about the "purity of the martial arts" or some other nonsense.  This does not prevent them from passing judgment on those who derive income and earn a living from teaching.

Likewise, the olympics, for years, barred professional athletes for similar reasons.  In auto racing, professional drivers were looked down upon until the fifties or sixties.

Not that this is the case, but sour grapes do not require one to offer the same thing.  Just to be jealous of another's success.

Daniel


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## Drac

I wish MT was around 30 years ago to see if the same negativity would have been heaped on *Richie Barathy* and his *American Combat Karate*...


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## Daniel Sullivan

I'm sure that Bruce Lee endured some less than flattering reviews in certain circles as well.  

And bring up Elvis Presley having a high dan rank and the rancor is unleashed.  Never mind that everything that I have read about his tests and what he did to promote the organizations that he was associated with indicates that he was probably more deserving of his rank than not a few self appointed organizational heads who advertise in Blackbeltmag (not a reference to GMP)

Also, I think that GMP suffers from some of the same criticism that Chuck Sullivan (no relation of which I am aware) and Vic Leroux (SP?) receive due to video grading.  So in the case of criticism of GMP, I think that there is more than one dynamic at work.

Daniel


----------



## Kumbajah

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not agreeing or disagreeing, but one need not have videos for sale to be bothered by, or to be jealous of, someone who does.
> 
> Plenty of people have made comments about how anyone who makes a living teaching martial arts or charges anything above what is needed to maintain a club as a non profit is somehow a fraud.  Obviously, these people do not have commercial schools, and are often students who have some weird notions about the "purity of the martial arts" or some other nonsense.  This does not prevent them from passing judgment on those who derive income and earn a living from teaching.
> 
> Likewise, the olympics, for years, barred professional athletes for similar reasons.  In auto racing, professional drivers were looked down upon until the fifties or sixties.
> 
> Not that this is the case, but sour grapes do not require one to offer the same thing.  Just to be jealous of another's success.
> 
> Daniel



Absolutely - I was just responding to the notion that they were jealous because he is a commercial success with DVDs where they are not. 

So to me the progression is multi-tiered - It's not that he has a high rank that he may have taken an abridged route to but rather he uses it to justify and give legitimacy his "new" system.

It's not he is a commercial success but rather how he achieved it - they  are more critical of something like distance learning programs. 

It's not he created a "new" art but he did it on the back of Hapkido an art that he doesn't do well. (Find any JuJuitsu art that has and promotes footwork like his - most would see it as beginning student level at best.)

The program started as modular program for TKD schools - the HKD community is a bit touchy about TKD pilfering from HKD (usually poorly - case in point) . This is probably an extension of that as well.  

If people want to buy what he has to sell, THKD people aren't going to stop them. People want what they want. Fast food is still ubiquitous, you can hear how bad it is for you but people still buy it. 

C'est la vie - hope no one gets hurt from it.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> Absolutely - I was just responding to the notion that they were jealous because he is a commercial success with DVDs where they are not.
> 
> So to me the progression is multi-tiered - It's not that he has a high rank that he may have taken an abridged route to but rather he uses it to justify and give legitimacy his "new" system.
> 
> It's not he is a commercial success but rather how he achieved it - they  are more critical of something like distance learning programs.


Distance learning is definitely a polarizing topic and any organization that does distance learning *with* rank progression can expect to take flack for it.  That is generally not the major criticism that I see of GMP, though I do agree that that adds to it.

The one that you have given repeatedly is this:



Kumbajah said:


> It's not he created a "new" art but he did it on the back of *Hapkido an art that he doesn't do well. (Find any JuJuitsu art that has and promotes footwork like his - most would see it as beginning student level at best.)*



The question that I have is whether his footwork is 'poor' or if it is simply 'not hapkido' but is functional and/or appropriate for what he is teaching, putting the name aside.  What are your thoughts regarding DA's comment:



dancingalone said:


> I'm inclined to  think that Pelligrini has  been influenced by some of things done in  wrestling or sambo or even  BJJ, which explains some of his footwork and  especially some of his  crouch entries.



Is the above something that explains his footwork and entries?  



Kumbajah said:


> The program started as modular program for TKD schools - the HKD community is a bit touchy about TKD pilfering from HKD (usually poorly - case in point) . This is probably an extension of that as well.


Again, I agree; like distance learning, modular programs based on one art set up as an add on to another generally will bring flack to the organization.  Occupational hazard I suppose.  Given how much pilfering has gone on in most KMA (Taekwondo was pretty much a copy Shotokan and with a made up history to boot, and Hapkido is a hybrid art, which by its very nature pilfers from other arts).  Personally, I do not see the pilfering as bad, so long as people are honest about where they are culling their techniques from.  



Kumbajah said:


> If people want to buy what he has to sell, THKD people aren't going to stop them. People want what they want. Fast food is still ubiquitous, you can hear how bad it is for you but people still buy it.
> 
> C'est la vie - hope no one gets hurt from it.


So far, based on the *system alone* (not the issues that can arise from lousy teachers of the system or distance learning, which is a topic all its own), I have yet to see any indication that this would be any more of an issue with CHKD than it is in HKD.  Every system has lousy teachers.  

But assuming that one was taught CHKD by an instructor who learned directly from GMP, or from another instructor who did (as opposed to a video ranked instructor), is people getting hurt really a factor any more than it is in any grappling/throwing MA?

I have not seen enough CHKD to even draw a conclusion on this, but I have seen enough HKD to say that with a lousy teacher, yes the potential for injury exists.  In fact the potential exists even with a fantastic teacher and a top notch facility with all safety gear in place.  Is implying that learning the system from a qualified instructor really fair?  

Or are you implying this because of the distance learning/modular program aspect (which may or may not apply depending upon the school)?

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> It's not he created a "new" art but he did it on the back of Hapkido an art that he doesn't do well. (Find any JuJuitsu art that has and promotes footwork like his - most would see it as beginning student level at best.)
> 
> The program started as modular program for TKD schools - the HKD community is a bit touchy about TKD pilfering from HKD (usually poorly - case in point) . This is probably an extension of that as well.



I think that it's quite evident there are more foreign influences within Combat Hapkido than just purely the jujutsu-derived arts.  And therein lies the problem with the perspective of folks like you.  You expect it to be more like the martial art you practice.  

I argue there quite a bit of hard style grappling within CH as demonstrated by Mr. Pelligrini.  He does things at time that would not be out of place in judo/sambo or even in karate.    




> If people want to buy what he has to sell, THKD people aren't going to stop them. People want what they want. Fast food is still ubiquitous, you can hear how bad it is for you but people still buy it.
> 
> C'est la vie - hope no one gets hurt from it.



Here's the problem with that analogy.  You believe CH is bad martial arts merely because it is not the hapkido you practice.  That's not necessarily the case.  There's more than way to address the same problem.  Karate people does it one way, judoka do it another way, and I bet even related arts like aikido and hapkido vary from each other too in specific scenarios.  Which one of them do it the right way?  All of them.  None of them.  It's up to the individual in that split second moment.


----------



## Kumbajah

Hopefully this will address both your posts - 

It's not that it's not Hapkido - I've studied Judo, Hapkido and Aikido. I have friends that study other arts as well who have exposed me to their chosen art. I can appreciate the mastery and logic behind their different approaches. 

Across the arts there are a few consistent things,.  whether it's a Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Western art, etc  The entries may be different, slightly different angles etc but what they do consistently is control the person by controlling the space NOT by running around the other person at arms distance. 

Regardless of the art, what GM P exhibits is poor. The 3 main influences are Hapkido, BJJ and Escrima (Kali, Arnis) - I haven't seen him exhibit master level at the other arts. 

I have limited exposure to the other arts, so I speak to what I do know, Hapkido and also the name that he chose for his art. He would it seems to think of THKD as major influence.

I also haven't seen masters in the other two arts exhibiting the footwork he demonstrates. 

So if GM P is the fount from which this art flows and the quality of the "base" art is lousy (or at the least seems to not understand the concepts that it's based on ) -  how can you expect a quality "product" down the line or from distance learning.  
'
I hope no one get hurt trying to emulate his movement in a "self defense" situation.


----------



## dancingalone

_



			I'm inclined  to  think that Pelligrini has  been influenced by some of things done  in  wrestling or sambo or even  BJJ, which explains some of his footwork  and  especially some of his  crouch entries.
		
Click to expand...

_


> Is the above something that explains his footwork and entries?


Daniel, I'd like to see him in person to see if his stepping is as staccato live as it is on the yellow/orange and green/purple CH videos.  He does appear a little stiff with unneeded steps in these but he's explaining at the same time as he is breaking down the techniques which can be disorienting to the instructor.  And he might be simplifying the footwork by breaking it up for the camera.  

Then again, if we're looking for the smoothness and unbroken movement gained by proper interval in an art like aikido and I expect traditional hapkido, we might just be barking up the wrong tree.  Some martial arts just simply rely more on force and jerky, unbalancing movements.  

Look at clips of sambo and judo or Filipino influenced arts like vee-arnis-jitsu.  They are look harder and more LINEAR than what one might expect in a purely Japanese jujutsu art.

National Combat Judo (likely a Filipino arnis/judo blend)
[yt]hCXzJ5JBNzY[/yt]

Sambo self-defense
[yt]371jXmmDkQ4[/yt]

Vee Arnis Jitsu
 [yt]wMIYlYVG2Zk[/yt]

Combat Hapkido Demo
[yt]VMBQZ8FWcE8[/yt]


----------



## Traditionalist

Kumbajah said:


> The problem shouldn't be what rank he is, he is the founder of is own system - he's beyond rank. He could claim 1000th dan, if he chose.
> 
> Also, the rank he has received was given by traditional Hapkido organizations - so if the rank is not deserved the blame is on them as well.
> 
> The only way this is a problem that I see, is that the rank is seen as proof of ability and as a representation of authority. "Of course you should learn form him! He's a 9th dan!"
> 
> He may do COMBAT hapkido really well but traditional Hapkido, not so much. To the uninitiated CHKD and THKD, may be thought of, as the same. It is misleading. Although, It's only confusing to people that don't know good traditional hapkido.
> 
> He could have saved himself a lot of grief from Trad HKD buy calling his art something else. I don't think anyone would care about him if he had done that. As soon as he steps on the mat, his ability (or lack thereof) is evident .
> 
> I wouldn't sweat it - there are many people practicing bad budo - can't save them all.




I agree. Where I'm from all Hapkido is combat. I have never understood the difference that this man was trying to make. Combat Hapkido? Do you not take all Hapkido to be ready in combat. So confusing


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> Daniel, I'd like to see him in person to see  if his stepping is as staccato live as it is on the yellow/orange and  green/purple CH videos.  He does appear a little stiff with unneeded  steps in these but he's explaining at the same time as he is breaking  down the techniques which can be disorienting to the instructor.  And he  might be simplifying the footwork by breaking it up for the camera.
> 
> Then again, if we're looking for the smoothness and unbroken movement  gained by proper interval in an art like aikido and I expect traditional  hapkido, we might just be barking up the wrong tree.  Some martial arts  just simply rely more on force and jerky, unbalancing movements.
> 
> Look at clips of sambo and judo or Filipino influenced arts like  vee-arnis-jitsu.  They are look harder and more LINEAR than what one  might expect in a purely Japanese jujutsu art.
> 
> National Combat Judo (likely a Filipino arnis/judo blend)
> [yt]hCXzJ5JBNzY[/yt]
> 
> Sambo self-defense
> [yt]371jXmmDkQ4[/yt]
> 
> Vee Arnis Jitsu
> [yt]wMIYlYVG2Zk[/yt]
> 
> Combat Hapkido Demo
> [yt]VMBQZ8FWcE8[/yt]


I don't know if that last one is GMP or not, but it looks a lot more fluid than other videos that I have seen and the footwork has fewer of the little adjustment steps.

The shoving video and the Judo video were interesting but did not remind me of what little I have seen of GMP, though the Sambo one did a bit.

Based on that CHKD video, what are the thoughts of those in this discussion?

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Traditionalist said:


> I agree. Where I'm from all Hapkido is combat. *I have never understood the difference that this man was trying to make.* Combat Hapkido? Do you not take all Hapkido to be ready in combat. So confusing


The title is all about marketing.  That is not a criticism, mind you, but an observation.  It is pretty clear that he is going for a demographic that either normally steers away from traditional arts, or for a demographic that wants to add 'combat' grappling to their striking.  By calling it 'Combat Hapkido', he makes use of his background and differentiates his system from that of other hapkido kwans.  

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

> I don't know if that last one is GMP or not, but it looks a lot more  fluid than other videos that I have seen and the footwork has fewer of  the little adjustment steps.



No, it's not Mr. Pelligrini, but I think it's a good demo of what CH can be.

What are the criticisms against Pelligrini's performance anyway?  As I understand it, it's 

1) halting footwalk with too many steps
2) improper display of distancing or interval
3) he demonstrates lineal force rather than circling to exert pressure to force his partner down

Just a guess without seeing him live, but I attribute #1 and perhaps #2 as well to the camera instructional effect.  My guess is that he's smoother in person, and some of the outside distancing can be chalked up to trying to make the shoot clear for the camera. 

What I tried to show by haphazardly picking these videos is that these arts break what I consider optimal distancing at times.  In some of the defenses, the defender already has the correct interval if he were to simply circle and then spiral the attacker down to the floor.  However he chooses to eschew the current advantage in favor of a violent motion into the attacker and down.  This might be less efficient but it can still be both painful and effective.


----------



## Kumbajah

I have seen that last video before and I would put their execution far above GM P's - 

Which leaves more questions than it answers - from their webpage - 

http://www.hapkidokoulu.fi/kouluttajat.html

It seems the head instructors also holds rank from the World-Ki-Do /HanMinJok Hapkido Association. Which is In Sun Seo's organization. I can't tell if they are cross ranked because of the Association of GM P and GM Seo or if they had prior or congruent study. The head instructor also seems to have JJ and ITF TKD experience.  ITF also has "hapkido elements" 

So where the smoothness comes from - I can't say. It would be a stretch from GM P given his execution. 

So are they doing CHKD wrong?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> I have seen that last video before and I would put their execution far above GM P's -
> 
> Which leaves more questions than it answers - from their webpage -
> 
> http://www.hapkidokoulu.fi/kouluttajat.html
> 
> It seems the head instructors also holds rank from the World-Ki-Do /HanMinJok Hapkido Association. Which is In Sun Seo's organization. I can't tell if they are cross ranked because of the Association of GM P and GM Seo or if they had prior or congruent study. The head instructor also seems to have JJ and ITF TKD experience.  ITF also has "hapkido elements"
> 
> So where the smoothness comes from - I can't say. It would be a stretch from GM P given his execution.
> 
> So are they doing CHKD wrong?


So if that guy opened up a school with a CHKD marquee  and you were in the market for a school, would you give it a shot based on his execution?

Daniel


----------



## Kumbajah

If you gave me a choice between that guy and GM P - I'm picking that guy 100%.


----------



## dancingalone

> So where the smoothness comes from - I can't say. It would be a stretch  from GM P given his execution.
> 
> So are they doing CHKD wrong?



I thought Combat Hapkido was a fairly eclectic organization with members from an assortment of backgrounds.  It would be no surprise to me if some members' expression of CH is more circular than what is displayed on the instructional video by Pelligrini.  And doubtlessly they shape what CH is to an extent.

We have brought up the ITF several times in discussing hapkido.  General Choi had several noted lieutenants who all added to the system.  Nam Tae Hi even created a few of the patterns used.


----------



## Kumbajah

dancingalone said:


> I thought Combat Hapkido was a fairly eclectic organization with members from an assortment of backgrounds.  It would be no surprise to me if some members' expression of CH is more circular than what is displayed on the instructional video by Pelligrini.  And doubtlessly they shape what CH is to an extent.
> 
> We have brought up the ITF several times in discussing hapkido.  General Choi had several noted lieutenants who all added to the system.  Nam Tae Hi even created a few of the patterns used.



That would seem antithetical to the "Combat" Hapkido notion - people reverting back to the "flawed, old, traditional" method. 

Shouldn't GM P be the model for execution not a 3rd Dan?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> No, it's not Mr. Pelligrini, but I think it's a good demo of what CH can be.


Yes, I did enjoy it.  



dancingalone said:


> What are the criticisms against Pelligrini's performance anyway?  As I understand it, it's
> 
> 1) halting footwalk with too many steps
> 2) improper display of distancing or interval
> 3) he demonstrates lineal force rather than circling to exert pressure to force his partner down


I'd say that that pretty well sums up the criticisms of *him* that I have read here.  I am interested in what people have to say about the system itself as well.  



dancingalone said:


> Just a guess without seeing him live, but I attribute #1 and perhaps #2 as well to the camera instructional effect.  My guess is that he's smoother in person, and some of the outside distancing can be chalked up to trying to make the shoot clear for the camera.
> 
> What I tried to show by haphazardly picking these videos is that these arts break what I consider optimal distancing at times.  In some of the defenses, the defender already has the correct interval if he were to simply circle and then spiral the attacker down to the floor.  However he chooses to eschew the current advantage in favor of a violent motion into the attacker and down.  This might be less efficient but it can still be both painful and effective.


I have not seen enough GMP vids to compare these to him and say that he is generally superior or inferior in execution to any of the above, but that last video did look a lot more impressive than what I have seen.  Though as you point out, those guys weren't giving tutorial.  Still, that last one really made me take notice.

Believe it or not, I am generally more critical of video execution than I am of in person/live.  If I see someone live and they are not up to par, realistically, they could simply have had a bad day.  With video, you can do it over and over until you get it right.  Given that video instruction is a fairly core part of what he offers, and given the fairly high production quality of the videos I have seen, I am disinclined to attribute too much to him simply being on camera.

As for why I am continuing in this discussion, even though I have virtually no interest in the outcome of the debate?  There is so little discussion in the hapkido section to begin with that I'll participate in anything here that I can.  Secondly, I truly would like to see well reasoned cases made regarding the system and GMP's abilities without the acrimony that often goes with these discussions.

Obviously, the man is on people's minds or topics about him would go nowhere, so I figure there must be something to talk about.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> If you gave me a choice between that guy and GM P - I'm picking that guy 100%.


Thanks, though that wasn't quite what I was asking.  

Not a choice between the two: that guy opens up a school with a CHKD sign.  You see him train and you are also looking for a school (perhaps you moved, your school relocated out of your reach, went under, master died, whatever other hypothetical you can think of that would put you in a shopping for a place to train situation).

_Knowing_ that it is *Combat* Hapkido, would you still give it a shot?  And yes or no, why? 

No wrong answer and I'm not trying to debate you into a corner or anything; just curious.   

Daniel


----------



## dortiz

Hi Daniel,
one reason I think there is less discussion here is that Hapkido is a more flowing art. In general its not good or bad what another school or style does but more of, its different. Thats our nature. 
That makes for tough discussions because in general we agree to disagree or at least see the similarities and understand the differences.
I have no problem with Combat Hapkido, but yes  chime in just to make sure folks dont confuse what that is with the other various styles out there.
If I did not train my style I would probably have transitioned to it since I was also a TKD guy. At the same time I consider myself lucky to have been exposed to what I was and have become absorbed in to it for long time.


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> That would seem antithetical to the "Combat" Hapkido notion - people reverting back to the "flawed, old, traditional" method.



Unless you know the definition of what Combat Hapkido is, you can not know whether people are reverting to the 'old' ways or not. 

The main descriptors people seem to use with CH is that it removes the fancy kicking & breakfalls & sword practice found in some hapkido styles.  That seems like it leaves a lot of room for other things including smoothness and circular movement even if it is reminiscent of traditional hapkido.



Kumbajah said:


> Shouldn't GM P be the model for execution not a 3rd Dan?



Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  There have been teachers in the past who are unable to perform techniques to their standard due to age or chronic injury.  They still teach using a senior student as a physical model.

Not knowing Mr. Pelligrini myself, I still recall reading something about him having physical problems that prompted a move outside of taekwondo in the first place.  And I don't think it out of the question that someone within an organization would eventually have better skill than the leader.  I see it myself in my dojo.  I have a student that will eventually be better than me if he keeps up the practice.  It happens.

To Daniel:  the Wikipedia entry for Combat Hapkido actually mentions a few interesting points which I had thought was the case about external influences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Hapkido

*"Combat Hapkido's strategy includes adopting features from styles like Jeet  Kune Do, Jujutsu, Western Boxing,  and Kuntao Silat[6]  to enhance its core curriculum.* For instance, some Traditional Hapkido  practitioners have complained that Traditional Hapkido doesn't provide  an extensive ground self-defense curriculum;[7] *Combat Hapkido attempts to address this by researching and  incorporating grappling techniques from different styles.[8]  Another instance is the incorporation of derived-versions of Jeet Kune  Do trapping and entering techniques to enhance transitions into Combat  Hapkido's core Joint Locking and Throwing techniques. *"

So there we have it.  Combat Hapkido is not traditional hapkido.  No need to be offended by the appearance of what it is or is not.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> That would seem antithetical to the "Combat" Hapkido notion - people reverting back to the "flawed, old, traditional" method.


Hard to say if it is antithetical or not.  I would be interested in what  is actually taught as opposed to what is used as marketing gimmicks in advertisements.  I generally buy my cars based on the car's actual specifications and what it is rated for and how it is rated, and of course the road test, not on the manufacturer's promotional material (I have a very strict definition of 'sports car' and 'truck', both of which are applied liberally to vehicles that fit neither bill.  I may still buy one of those vehicles based on whether or not it fits my needs, even though the promotional material touts it in a way that is off-putting.  


Kumbajah said:


> Shouldn't GM P be the model for execution not a 3rd Dan?


Not if he isn't going to be the one teaching me.  And since I don't do videos, I care only about what my instructor looks like.  I don't care how good Choi Yong Sul was.  I do care how good the guy or gal teaching the class is.

Now, if I *were* doing the video thing, then I would answer a definite yes, seeing as he is the one presenting.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> To Daniel:  the Wikipedia entry for Combat Hapkido actually mentions a few interesting points which I had thought was the case about external influences.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Hapkido
> 
> *"Combat Hapkido's strategy includes adopting features from styles like Jeet  Kune Do, Jujutsu, Western Boxing,  and Kuntao Silat[6]  to enhance its core curriculum.* For instance, some Traditional Hapkido  practitioners have complained that Traditional Hapkido doesn't provide  an extensive ground self-defense curriculum;[7] *Combat Hapkido attempts to address this by researching and  incorporating grappling techniques from different styles.[8]  Another instance is the incorporation of derived-versions of Jeet Kune  Do trapping and entering techniques to enhance transitions into Combat  Hapkido's core Joint Locking and Throwing techniques. *"
> 
> So there we have it.  Combat Hapkido is not traditional hapkido.  No need to be offended by the appearance of what it is or is not.


Appreciated.

Not to split hairs, but the trapping in Jeet Kune Do is actually, as I understand, from Wing Chun.  JKD is, to my knowledge, less of a style and more of a training philosophy.

Jujutsu is actually the basis of hapkido, though it is a specific typy (Daito Ryu).  So the question then is what ryu of Jujutsu is incorporated?  

Also, when you mentioned that it divests flashy kicks and breakfalls, I assume that you mean flashy breakfalls.  I consider falling and rolling to be fairly essential, and I assume that CHKD has some curriculum for falls and rolls.

Daniel


----------



## Kumbajah

@ Daniel - instruction is about the instructor not the style. I'm not impressed ( maybe a little embarrassed for )  GM P. The other guy seems to know what he's doing.

@ Dancing - If the two executions are so dramatically different, I think it's fair to assume the founder is doing it in line with the art in question's tenets and methodology vs a third dan. If GM P can't execute to the standards that he wishes or aspires to why be the model on his tapes and promotional material? 

I am in the same boat as Dan - if people want what he's offering have at it. I can only offer a "traditional" point of view at the "hapkido" skills. He's not keeping with the principles.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> @ Daniel - *instruction is about the instructor not the style*. I'm not impressed ( maybe a little embarrassed for )  GM P. The other guy seems to know what he's doing.


Absolutely agree with you regarding instruction.  And I agree regarding the other guy.  

RE. GMP, some of what I have seen of him (which is not very much) looks quite good.  Some left me wondering why, which is why I ask if there is some technical reason for his footwork.  Or if perhaps he suffers from knee or joint problems and has had to modify his steps accordingly.  Or perhaps its the combat boots.

Since that has not been forthcoming (Dancing's speculation aside), I will refrain from commenting any further than I have on GMP's execution.

Time to head out.  I'll check in later.  

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not to split hairs, but the trapping in Jeet Kune Do is actually, as I understand, from Wing Chun.  JKD is, to my knowledge, less of a style and more of a training philosophy.



Lordy, this is whole new mess of beans that JKD people fight over.  Suffice it to say that when some say JKD they nonetheless mean the training techniques and methods that Bruce Lee favored himself.  Some others say properly, the term should be jun fan gung fu then, named after Bruce Lee's Chinese name.



> Jujutsu is actually the basis of hapkido, though it is a specific typy (Daito Ryu).  So the question then is what ryu of Jujutsu is incorporated?


I DOUBT it is Daito-ryu, which as you know is fairly stylized and looks nothing like what we see on the Combat Hapkido videos.  Maybe some Hawaiian blend like Danzan-ryu.



> Also, when you mentioned that it divests flashy kicks and breakfalls, I assume that you mean flashy breakfalls.  I consider falling and rolling to be fairly essential, and I assume that CHKD has some curriculum for falls and rolls.


Yes, they have the basic rolls and break falls although the videos do not teach it at all.  They basically leave it up to the local instructor to teach his spin of what each should be.  What I mean by flashy is those high flying ones that some aikidoka like to practice, replete with leaps and flips in the air.


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> @ Dancing - If the two executions are so dramatically different, I think it's fair to assume the founder is doing it in line with the art in question's tenets and methodology vs a third dan. If GM P can't execute to the standards that he wishes or aspires to why be the model on his tapes and promotional material?



<shrugs>  I don't regard the training videos as a terminal picture of what Pelligrini is capable of.  They were filmed some time ago as I recall they were available on VHS tape.  I have no doubts Pelligrini has grown in his art since the filming and it might be time to refilm them to address some of the valid criticisms made about his execution of certain techniques.

You mentioned that CH started as an add-on program for taekwondo schools.  It sounds like he continuously revised and grew his curriculum since they're coming out now with things like cane  and trapping instruction.

In the end, it might simply be that Mr. Pelligrini is a better teacher and businessman than he is a martial artist.  I would like to work with him in person someday and will likely take the opportunity next time a seminar is available in my area.   By all accounts the man is accessible and willing to demonstrate on the mat.  He doesn't hide.



> I am in the same boat as Dan - if people want what he's offering have at it. I can only offer a "traditional" point of view at the "hapkido" skills. He's not keeping with the principles.



And that's fine if you remain factual in your criticism.  He does not always follow the principles of traditional hapkido.  He might have entirely valid reasons for doing his own thing as it is influenced by silat, boxing, JKD, etc.


----------



## Kumbajah

dancingalone said:


> Yes, they have the basic rolls and break falls although the videos do not teach it at all.  They basically leave it up to the local instructor to teach his spin of what each should be.  What I mean by flashy is those high flying ones that some aikidoka like to practice, replete with leaps and flips in the air.



How do you practice throws with out teaching falls? Who are you going to throw? 

As for Aikido's breakfalls  - Some of the big breakfalls are the only way to protect yourself - Shihonage - if the thrower doesn't let you roll or sit out you have to take a big fall. 

Falls are more practical for self defense than anything else taught.


----------



## Kumbajah

dancingalone said:


> And that's fine if you remain factual in your criticism.  He does not always follow the principles of traditional hapkido.  He might have entirely valid reasons for doing his own thing as it is influenced by silat, boxing, JKD, etc.



He's the one invoking Hapkido - "Combat Hapkido" - I'll take him at his word - that's what he's trying to do. He misses the mark.


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> How do you practice throws with out teaching falls? Who are you going to throw?



Well you can't.  That's why I wonder about this video learning aspect of Combat Hapkido.  If they don't teach falls at all on the DVDs, by definition you must seek some type of local instruction at the very least for this missing information.  Perhaps one is supposed to attend a CH seminar...



> As for Aikido's breakfalls  - Some of the big breakfalls are the only way to protect yourself - Shihonage - if the thrower doesn't let you roll or sit out you have to take a big fall.



Yes, that's true.  But surely you're aware of the more fanciful ones involving aerial spins practiced by some of our younger Aikido friends?  I refer to those, and Pelligrini is likely too when he says his system does not have them.


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> He's the one invoking Hapkido - "Combat Hapkido" - I'll take him at his word - that's what he's trying to do. He misses the mark.



Combat Hapkido != traditional hapkido.  It's as simple as realizing that and moving on.


----------



## FearlessFreep

All of this is second hand so take it for what it's worth.

From what I've been told, GM P was testing for third dan about the time of my instructor, many years ago.  GM P (not GM at the time : ) failed.  However, he returned a few years later as 7th Dan; he had bought his rank. Other than a lot of money, I don't recall what the other side's motivation for selling him the rank was or what he received in return (and apparently there was a falling out either between GM P and the one who sold him his rank, or the next level up).  But he basically bought his position for the sake of opening his school and business.

Now, as barely a first dan myself, I don't design to judge his techniques myself; I don't have the expertise or the background.  What I've been told is that those of legitimate high rank in Hapkido can see that his technique is poor.

Now in the ensuing time, he has since brought in other people who really know what they are doing to help augment and support his on CHK system (notably BJJ and some other, better Hapkidoist) and there are peopl ein his organization that are talented, either from prior Hapkido or just plain naturally good, so you will find within the system people who know their stuff, but it's not really a result of what he knows, teaches or has passed down

Again this is all second hand passed from my own instructor and for myself, I believe it, but take it for what you wish


----------



## dancingalone

FearlessFreep said:


> Now in the ensuing time, he has since brought in other people who really know what they are doing to help augment and support his on CHK system (notably BJJ and some other, better Hapkidoist) and there are peopl ein his organization that are talented, either from prior Hapkido or just plain naturally good, so you will find within the system people who know their stuff, but it's not really a result of what he knows, teaches or has passed down



Thanks.  That sort of crystalizes what I was trying to say.  The system can certainly be a fine one due to the efforts of Pelligrini to grow it, whatever his personal flaws might be.


----------



## Kumbajah

dancingalone said:


> Combat Hapkido != traditional hapkido.  It's as simple as realizing that and moving on.



No one is making him use "hapkido" as part of the name - if it's in the name shouldn't it be in the art? If it's in the art shouldn't it use the principles that make the art "work".

Or are you saying it's ok to be intentionally deceptive "Hey, I never said it was hapkido - it's different" 

It seems to be your take -  since the understanding of the founder of the principles of the art seem to be irrelevant to the art - "hey he's got some good people so what's the difference" 

- hilarious


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> No one is making him use "hapkido" as part of the name - if it's in the name shouldn't it be in the art? If it's in the art shouldn't it use the principles that make the art "work".
> 
> Or are you saying it's ok to be intentionally deceptive "Hey, I never said it was hapkido - it's different"
> 
> It seems to be your take -  since the understanding of the founder of the principles of the art seem to be irrelevant to the art - "hey he's got some good people so what's the difference"
> 
> - hilarious



I think you just have a burr under your saddle about it for some reason and you can't let it go.  I don't think that's hilarious though.

You've participated on enough of these Combat Hapkido threads to know the system is different, but you willfully persist in the belief that using the rather generic name "hapkido" means there has to be a deep and prevalent connection to the hapkido you practice and when there's not, it's a big deal to you.

Catholics, Gnostics, Mormons, Greek Orthodox - hey they're all Christians right?  Never mind that each group has at least one serious tenet or doctrine that has the other groups in hackles about it.

In this, you're just like any other true believer, fervent in your cause and close-minded to an extent.  Well, it's a free country.


----------



## Kumbajah

No, I think it's hilarious what people will accept if they are being promised what they want. 

You get the teacher you deserve -


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> No, I think it's hilarious what people will accept if they are being promised what they want.
> 
> You get the teacher you deserve -



And now you're just trolling.  Good night.


----------



## Kumbajah

Not at all - I think this brings the thread back full circle. You're basically saying "it's (CHKD) John P's great mixture of stuff he thought was cool it's not hapkido - get over it" 

Fine - why should we care what John P thinks is cool? He doesn't seem to move very well -

"Well he's got a 9th dan in Hapkido" 

But shouldn't he move with in the perimeters of Hapkido? He added Hapkido to the name. 

"It's not Hapkido -  it's his special blend" 

Well why should I care what he thinks - 

"He's got a 9th dan in Hapkido"  

DOH!!! :lfao:- come on it's like "who's on first" - it's funny.


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> Not at all - I think this brings the thread back full circle. You're basically saying "it's (CHKD) John P's great mixture of stuff he thought was cool it's not hapkido - get over it"
> 
> Fine - why should we care what John P thinks is cool? He doesn't seem to move very well -
> 
> "Well he's got a 9th dan in Hapkido"
> 
> But shouldn't he move with in the perimeters of Hapkido? He added Hapkido to the name.
> 
> "It's not Hapkido -  it's his special blend"
> 
> Well why should I care what he thinks -
> 
> "He's got a 9th dan in Hapkido"
> 
> DOH!!! :lfao:- come on it's like "who's on first" - it's funny.



Kum, is it really so hard to have a rational discourse on this topic for you?

First, don't attribute arguments to me that I never made.  It's the strawman fallacy and just makes you appear desperate to make your point at all costs.   Be respectful of other people and take the time to understand their posts rather than superimpose what you think they said according to your own prejudices.

There are a number of points I have made on this thread.  I will summarize them, more for others since I don't believe you are sincere in your participation.



Hapkido people should be careful making an issue about Pelligrini's rank given the cloudy nature of rank in Korean martial arts in general.  Trace your lineage back far enough and you likely won't find a lot that seems above the board.


Pelligrini's execution in some techniques on video does seem to be 'wrong' in certain aspects like distancing, excessive stepping, and use of lineal force.  But I have not seen him in person and I suspect he is much better live on the mat.
One reason for the variance may be due to the influence of other systems that DO utilize strength and brute in-line movement more so than perhaps THKD does.
Or Pelligrini may be have performed the techniques less well due to the presence of the camera or he may have intentionally performed them a certain way thinking it would be more clear on camera.
Combat Hapkido is an eclectic system with people from a variety of backgrounds.  It is understandable to see some variation in execution across practitioners where some even junior to Pelligrini will appear more adhering to THKD principles.  Some of these people undoubtedly influence the system whether they are just part of the group or whether they were brought in by Pelligrini to add something specific such as cane techniques or trapping techniques.  A parallel was drawn to General Choi who had similar lieutenants and outside resources.
Combat Hapkido is organic and Pelligrini continues to advance his system in content.  Over the years, it would not be surprising to see that his own personal skill has improved over the standard recorded in the instructional videos.
And finally, Combat Hapkido is NOT Traditional Hapkido despite sharing the same common root name.  No need to do anything other than accept it and move on.

Hmm, on that last note, I thought it interesting that Dave mentioned hapkido styles are different and difficult to discuss on boards like this accordingly.  The key is to find a common link.   Maybe the same advice could be applied by some to CH?


----------



## Kumbajah

So why should we care (and buy) what he thinks?  - i.e. his art of COMBAT Hapkido - Why should his opinion be something we find informed and of value. What separates him from some other guy pulling together stuff he thinks is cool in his garage?


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> So why should we care (and buy) what he thinks?  - i.e. his art of COMBAT Hapkido



Trolling again?  *YOU *don't have to do anything.  It's a free country.  

As for others, if they are interested in CH, they can investigate it for themselves to see if it is a good fit for them.  Threads like these can only help the process.


----------



## Kumbajah

Right - but in your opinion what gives his opinion authority? Why would you trust his judgment? Given this is something that you may stake your well being on? (rather then a simply a fun activity )


----------



## dancingalone

What makes any teacher credible and worthy of learning from?  

By the way, reasonable people can still arrive at a different answer when given the same input.  It doesn't necessarily make either person wrong.  Martial arts are like that unlike a math problem.


----------



## Kumbajah

Well some move impressively well, some are field experienced, some have spent years in their art, some are sport champions. 

He doesn't have any of those things.  

There are many different Martial Arts - I've never claimed that Hapkido is the answer for everyone. One mountain many roads. 

I'm simply asking why would you trust a man that doesn't have any of the above criteria?

If you think the above criteria isn't a valid test - what would be? Why would you trust this man's opinion?


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> He doesn't have any of those things.



It's all about 1) is it useful? and 2) can he teach it?  I don't know anything about Pelligrini's teaching skill.  I do have enough experience in martial arts myself to look at his material critically and consider whether it is useful to to others or to me .  Could I make this work for myself?  Could I learn it, internalize it, adapt it enough to be able to teach it effectively myself?  On this test, I would say yes, the base CH material I have seen is useful and repeatable across a variety of attackers, even those larger than oneself.  It requires no more strength or agility to execute than any other commonly available martial art.



> There are many different Martial Arts - I've never claimed that Hapkido is the answer for everyone. One mountain many roads.



But you've been adamant enough that Pelligrini is not skilled at the hapkido you practice.  Fine.  Combat Hapkido != Traditional Hapkido.  Repeat to yourself as many times as necessary.



> I'm simply asking why would you trust a man that doesn't have any of the above criteria?
> 
> If you think the above criteria isn't a valid test - what would be? Why would you trust this man's opinion?



If you're asking me personally, I don't know the man enough to say anything about trusting him or his system.  I only trust the styles I have chosen to train in myself.  

That said, I've reviewed his beginner material enough with a jaundiced eye to believe it is legitimate enough to train in under the watchful guidance of an instructor.  There certainly are plenty of physical schools that train in something decidedly worse.  

Combat Hapkido gets a bad rap due to the video learning aspect unfortunately.  If Pelligrini got rid of this part of CH, I bet a lot of animosity would go away.


----------



## Kumbajah

Is it useful? A Big question - 

How do you know it's useful? You looked at though the lens of the martial art you know (Karate and Aikido - correct) so you can see that it's slightly similar to what you know, but different. I can see through a Hapkido lens and it doesn't seem valid. 

How do you know what he changed is valid? Seems not to employ Hapki/Aiki principles. He doesn't seem to move impressively well - "wow - I've got to learn that!" 

Why should we trust his opinion?


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> Is it useful? A Big question -
> 
> How do you know it's useful? You looked at though the lens of the martial art you know (Karate and Aikido - correct) so you can see that it's slightly similar to what you know, but different. I can see through a Hapkido lens and it doesn't seem valid.
> 
> How do you know what he changed is valid?



You've answered the question already.  Because what I see is close enough to material I have already seen elsewhere.

And what changes are you talking about?  You said over and over again this is not the hapkido you understand.  So we've established CH does not have a base from which you work from.  Fine and dandy.  So why are you arguing about a mass of material which is different from yours?  It makes as much sense as me complaining that kenpo doesn't work... an art I don't practice at all.




> Seems not to employ Hapki/Aiki principles.



Yes, we've already covered this.  Are you following along?  It's hard to have a discussion if you ignore what the preceding person has said.  Either address or refute it or it needs to stand.  Combat Hapkido is not Traditional Hapkido.  You cannot and should not expect the two to look alike or have the same solutions to the same problems at hand.



> He doesn't seem to move impressively well - "wow - I've got to learn that!"  Why should we trust his opinion?



Address the system, not the man.  Even Daniel has asked you what you thought about the art itself rather than talk over and over again about your perceived shortcomings of Pelligrini.  But it appears you've never looked at what CH is at all other than a few internet clips of him so you simply don't have the base upon which to talk about what CH is or isn't.  I have.  I've watched the yellow/orange and green/purple belt programs several times and have taken notes about my impressions.

As for trusting his opinion, the same goes for any other ma teacher out there.  You have to look at their art and their skill and decide if it is a good situation for you or not.  As I said before, two people can look at the same scenario and have an entirely different outlook.  And that's fine.  The problem is that you ASSUME your outlook is universally correct for everyone, which it cannot be since martial arts are a personal tool with various physical and mental affinities.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Okay, the whole, "He calls it hapkido and that is dishonest/must be hapkido" argument needs to be dropped.  

The reason is that the same logic can be applied to hapkido itself.  Why did they name their art &#21512;&#27683;&#36947; and throw in all those kicks and punches?  It isn't really &#21512;&#27683;&#36947; if it those, is it?  And does it have an Omoto Kyo based philosophy?  If not, then is it really &#21512;&#27683;&#36947;?

And what about Choi's credentials?  They're ambiguous at best.  Should I trust him?  And is he not the font from which hapkido flows?  But did he or Ji move like Ueshiba?  If not (and not many did from what I understand), then he had no business founding a variant of  &#21512;&#27683;&#36947;. 

Obviously, I don't care about Choi's credentials or how similar to Ueshiba or Ueshiba's top students Choi's movement was.  The man is dead and his system is well established and proven.  Obviously, I don't care about how &#21512;&#27683;&#36947; is pronounced or whether or not it was stolen from Ueshiba.  If I did, I'd be at an Aikido school wearing a flowing hakama and looking down my nose at hapkido instead of taking it.

If you cannot get past the name issue, then you may as well hang it up.  We all know that it isn't traditional hapkido.  So does his target demographic, who probably aren't interested in traditional hapkido in the first place.  

And come on; we practice an art with a pilfered name, pilfered techniques, and an ambiguously certified founder.  

What give us the right whine when someone else returns the favor?  

At least GMP doesn't put the 'hapkido taught in the Silla Kingdom and practiced by the hwarang' crap that I have seen on some HKD school websites into his literature.

Am I defending the guy?  

No.  But lets get off of the high horse about nomenclature and technique pilfering.  Discuss the system.  I genuinely do not know it and it seems to be enough of a hot topic that I'd like to see the system discussed on a technical level or on a 'it works or doesn't work and here's why' level.

Daniel


----------



## Kumbajah

I'm not sure how or why you are doing the mental gymnastics to separate the man from the art he founded *20* years ago. - BTW he got his 1st dan in 1989 possibly 90 from Mike Wollmerhauser.



> "In 1990, Grandmaster Pellegrini develooped his own style of Hapkido, called "Combat Hapkido" (Chon-Tu Kwan Hapkido in Korean). Although firmly rooted in Hapkido, it is considered an "eclectic" system because it contains elements from other fighting disciplines. In 1999 Combat Hapkido became the first non-traditional Hapkido style founded by an American to receive official "Kwan" recognition by the World Ki-Do Federation. In 1992 he founded the International Combat Hapkido Federation (ICHF), the governing body for his system. Today the ICHF has grown to over 250 affiliate schools in 15 countries, making it one of the largest Hapkido organizations in the world. (TKD Times Jan 2005, p.47)





> "I started studying and researching Hapkido when I was already a 4th dan in Taekwondo. I became passionate about Hapkido for three reasons: Taekwondo was becoming more and more of a "sport" for children and young adults: the practical self defense side was very limited and I wanted an art that I could continue to practice in my senior years when my athletic abilities would greatly diminish. I found that Hapkido was suitable for my mature body, my personality, and my lifelong desire to teach the most realistic and effective self defense system." (GM P in BUDO International NOV/DEC 2004, p. 6)





> "My decision to found my own style of Hapkido was not based on ego or the quest for glory. It was prompted by my belief that all science and technology must continue to advance and improve, not remain stagnant and become obsolete. It is called progress, which is the engine of survival of human civilization. BUDO International NOV/DEC 2004, p.6)





> "Combat Hapkido, the system I founded in 1990, is a hybrid, eclectic system structured on the foundation of Hapkido. If you want to remodel, expand, or redecorate a house, it is not necessary nor wise to destroy the entire foundation. You can be creative, efficient, and practical in the changes you make, using the existing sound structure." (BUDO International NOV/DEC 2004,p.8 )


He by his own account used Hapkido as the base and considers his art to be a form of Hapkido, I feel I can judge that part of the art, not the BJJ ground fighting, or the Kali or any other part of CHKD.  

So if he had poor Hapkido basics why would I believe he "made improvements" - Why is his system "better" than studying THKD - what is the basis of the trust I would be putting into him by studying his system.

BTW -  I don't think Hapkido is for everyone - I don't think it's a turnkey solution. It's not what I am addressing. 

It's a simple question - _*What gives his interpretation authority*_? If it's 9th dan - then Hapkido matters, If it's not why else would you believe him he doesn't move well for any martial art. Not Western or Eastern. So why would you study from a guy that started his art based on a art that he had a 1st or 2nd dan in at the time. 

Daniel - Hapkido has nothing to do with Ueshiba - it's a Korean art based on Choi's teaching which he claimed came from DRAJJ. Many find the claim spurious but none doubted his martial prowess. It's why people sought him out. You should research it


----------



## jks9199

Folks,
Let's be careful how we tread here, huh?  Fraudbusting is against the rules, and hate fests aren't welcome, either.  If you're just going to go in circles complaining and attacking, then I predict that you'll quickly find yourself in an unhappy place...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> Not at all - I think this brings the thread back full circle. You're basically saying "it's (CHKD) John P's great mixture of stuff he thought was cool it's not hapkido - get over it"


Pretty much every art is a collection of what the founder thought was pretty cool.  They gave it a name that they thought appropriate at the time.  

I don't like the fact that sport taekwondo as the WTF promotes is called taekwondo because fundamentally, it isn't.  But I don't think that the WTF is somehow deceptive for calling it that.  I just accept that that is what they call it and wish that they wouldn't.  I evaluate WTF sport TKD on its own merits or flaws, not on whether or not I think that it is appropriately named.



Kumbajah said:


> Fine - why should we care what John P thinks is cool? He doesn't seem to move very well -
> 
> "Well he's got a 9th dan in Hapkido"


Maybe he has used what he teaches in practical self defense situations?  Maybe others who have learned it have done so and have thus validated his system?  Some guys are great songwriters and lousy singers.  Doesn't make their song poorly written.  Maybe GMP is a theory monster who knows how to translate what he knows to students?



Kumbajah said:


> shouldn't he move with in the perimeters of Hapkido? He added Hapkido to the name.


See my first paragraph.



Kumbajah said:


> "It's not Hapkido -  it's his special blend"
> 
> Well why should I care what he thinks -


See my second paragraph.



Kumbajah said:


> "He's got a 9th dan in Hapkido".


So what?  There seems to be more gudans than white belts these days.  Means nothing.  The question isn't whether or not you should care what he thinks.  The question is whether or not his system addresses your needs and if the techniques therein are practically effective.  

What he calls it, what his rank is, or how well he moves really are separate issues.  What he calls it is frankly unimportant.  He could call it American Aikido, Armageddon MMA, or Super-Duper-hapkido for all I care.  As the system founder, his rank is likewise unimportant.  How well he moves is a separate issue, though it does not really prevent him from being an innovator.  That is really more of an organizational/figure out how it works thing and is a mental skill, not a physical skill.

Now, does his way of moving really make me jump up and say that he must be the next Chuck Norris?  No.  But since he is not the only one teaching his system at this point, I will look at how a potential instructor moves.  If I like what I see, I may sign up.  If not, I definitely won't, regardless of whether or not I like the way GMP moves.

Daniel


----------



## Kumbajah

@jks9199



yorkshirelad said:


> That being said, I can't understand why anyone would have a problem with Gm Pelligrini's rank.



I'm just addressing this from the original post. Either, he uses it to legitimize his art or he doesn't. It's just a long way round of getting there - Of why it may matter or might rub people the wrong way.


----------



## dancingalone

> It's a simple question - What gives his interpretation authority?



You assume it needs 'authority' as you understand the word in the sense of Moses from Mount Sinai or anointed with blood like some of the gung fu styles are out of legend.

I prefer the market based viewpoint.  Sometimes markets are rational, other times not.  In any case, the longevity of Combat Hapkido will be determined by how well it is received by its consumers.  Products that survive the test of time generally meet a minimum standard of quality.



> If it's 9th dan - then Hapkido matters, If it's not why else would you believe him he doesn't move well for any martial art. Not Western or Eastern. So why would you study from a guy that started his art based on a art that he had a 1st or 2nd dan in at the time.



Yeah, I don't know why you bring up his 9th dan again and again.  I don't think anyone on this thread has said it means anything with regard to the efficacy of CH.  And again, I don't necessarily think Combat Hapkido is all bad just because I have a few questions about the way Pelligrini executes some counters in his training videos.  While the man is the most visible face of the style, I don't believe him to BE the style.  This isn't a cult of personality.  It is a martial art and Pelligrini has an important role as the founder, but he is not the end all, be all of it.  Otherwise, why else would he have brought in people from other arts to add onto CH?  



> BTW - I don't think Hapkido is for everyone - I don't think it's a turnkey solution. It's not what I am addressing.



But you're hanging onto the 'CH must be Hapkido because of the name' rope.  You're ignoring the very real possibility that the system itself, perceived warts and all, might be a very fine solution for some.


----------



## Kumbajah

Again - Why would you study under someone that you weren't impressed by?  

Again-  people are going to buy what they are going to buy. Because they buy it doesn't make it good. 

9th dan - see the post above yours. 

Again - I'm not drawing the correlation GM P is. It's in published materials. 

Again - I think it's funny what people will buy. You get the teacher you deserve. More power to him


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> Again - Why would you study under someone that you weren't impressed by?



I think this has been addressed several times.  You study with your instructor who presumably you would be impressed by.  The problem is that you're demonstrating yourself incapable of separating the system from its founder.



> Again-  people are going to buy what they are going to buy. Because they buy it doesn't make it good.



People only buy things if it meets a need.  People only CONTINUE to buy the same thing if it meets the need and has a minimal level of quality.  Combat Hapkido is not marketed as a kiddie sport activity.  It purports to teach self-defense and so people who are primarily concerned with SD will be looking at it as a solution. 



> Again - I'm not drawing the correlation GM P is. It's in published materials.



But you're fixated with the hapkido end of it.  That's the only area you want to talk about at all since that's what you know.  Meanwhile the entire body of CH seems to have moved on to something else.  And CH continues to add more and more material primarily it seems from non-THKD sources.  So your quibble about CH not exhibiting HKD principles becomes less and less relevant over time.



> Again - I think it's funny what people will buy. You get the teacher you deserve. More power to him



Not sure what this was meant to say other than express smugness over some type of feeling of superiority in your own mind?


----------



## Kumbajah

The original post was about his rank. 

He is the head instructor. He calls it Hapkido. I don't know how to make it more clear. He has chosen where to market himself and how. 

The system stuff is trolling on your part - If you like it, great! good for you. I wish you a long and happy study. You get the teacher you deserve. 

I am talking about the man, his rank and what that effect has on the greater Hapkido community - *the original topic*.


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> The original post was about his rank.
> 
> He is the head instructor. He calls it Hapkido. I don't know how to make it more clear. He has chosen where to market himself and how.
> 
> I am talking about the man, his rank and what that effect has on the greater Hapkido community - *the original topic*.



All of these points have been addressed over and over again.  It is just that you CHOOSE to ignore what has been said by both me and Daniel, and you sing your refrain about his rank and hapkido over and over again in isolation.  You're acting like a broken record.



> The system stuff is trolling on your part - If you like it, great! good for you. I wish you a long and happy study. You get the teacher you deserve.



Actually you're the one trolling.  You know full well I don't study CH, but you're saying your false words of benediction as if you're in some position to judge CH and those that don't reject its value out of hand like you do.

I repeat: you know nothing about CH other than a few stray clips of Pelligrini you've seen on Youtube.  You can't begin to have an informed opinion about the art itself.


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## Kumbajah

dancingalone said:


> All of these points have been addressed over and over again.  It is just that you CHOOSE to ignore what has been said by both me and Daniel, and you sing your refrain about his rank and hapkido over and over again in isolation.  You're acting like a broken record.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually you're the one trolling.  You know full well I don't study CH, but you're saying your false words of benediction as if you're in some position to judge CH and those that don't reject its value out of hand like you do.
> 
> I repeat: you know nothing about CH other than a few stray clips of Pelligrini you've seen on Youtube.  You can't begin to have an informed opinion about the art itself.



I'm being scolded for staying on topic - *again* this thread is hilarious. You sir are hilarious - thanks for the laughs.


----------



## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> I'm being scolded for staying on topic - *again* this thread is hilarious. You sir are hilarious - thanks for the laughs.



I guess you concede my points.


----------



## Kumbajah

Ha - no.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> The original post was about his rank.
> 
> He is the head instructor. He calls it Hapkido. I don't know how to make it more clear. He has chosen where to market himself and how.


Absolutely.  I asked a question some pages back and, if you answered it, I have missed it.  Do you feel that there is enough of the essentials in the CHKD *system* for it to be called a derivative of HKD?  

While this thread has to do with the man and his rank, you have made a huge issue out of him calling his system hapkido.  That is the reason why, at least at my end, the system comes back up.  If there is enough on a technical level for it to still fall into the category, then I really don't see the problem.



Kumbajah said:


> The system stuff is trolling on your part - If you like it, great! good for you. I wish you a long and happy study. *You get the teacher you deserve.*


Actually it isn't trolling on his part.  The rest is fine until the snide dig at the end.  If you'd drop the snide remarks you'd do yourself a huge favor.



Kumbajah said:


> I am talking about the man, his rank and what that effect has on the greater Hapkido community - *the original topic*.


And what effect has it had on the greater hapkido community? So far as I can tell, none, aside from that if the comment made by Fearless Freep is true and he did buy his rank, it implies that whatever organization he came up through as a rank-for-sale business (which really is their problem, something that you pointed out back on page 1).  Perhaps you have a different perspective with some kind of basis in fact?

Daniel


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## dancingalone

Kumbajah said:


> Ha - no.


The absence of any substantive discussion on your part about the system of Combat Hapkido itself shows otherwise.   



> Do you feel that there is enough of the essentials in the CHKD *system*  for it to be called a derivative of HKD?


Good question and one ultimately impossible to answer, Daniel.  

I believe many the techniques in the CHKD system depend on leverage and unbalancing to work, albeit with a more forceful style of execution than what I am used to in aikido.  In this respect it bears a lot of resemblance to some bunkai I have been exposed to in my karate studies.  The aikidoist in me now looks at the bunkai I learned and constantly is tempted to tinker with them to make them cleaner with more flow and less effort.  Still, would I deny that the techniques are effective?  Of course not.  They very much work if trained in a disciplined fashion. 

Systems are up to individual interpretation.  My karate tends to be a lot softer than that of others, even those who learned from my own sensei.  This is natural given my bent and other subsequent training.  Combat Hapkido should work the same way, given its eclectic nature.  The videos themselves present a certain baseline of techniques, somewhat small in number in my opinion.  I imagine each individual instructors fills in the gaps so to speak with their own understandings and experiences from prior studies.  So it is not out of the question that different progeny from the CHKD tree will demonstrate different facilities and preferences even if they all practice the same base curriculum.


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## Daniel Sullivan

I don't think that it is impossible to answer, but it would require someone to be familiar enough with hapkido to be able to see it and to then study what is in the CHKD system (not necessarily take the class, but watch videos, read GMP's material, etc.).

Most people see a Honda Pilot as an SUV and an Accord as a car.  I worked in automotive and still follow the trade.  The Pilot is built off of the Accord platform and uses the same engine and tranny.  Honda could have sold it as the COMBAT-Accord, and have the Accord part be legit, even though the Accord base is hard to spot now that the body is six inches higher up, 4wd has been added and the sheet metal looks like a Ford Explorer.

The Ridgeline is, if I am not mistaken, still Accord based, though it is so reworked and has so many unique parts that it would be a stretch to really call it an Accord.

Interestingly, with the Crosstour, they now have their Accord SUV.  Maybe the Pilot will take off and fly away.  Or maybe gain its own unique platform and move up in size closer to a Tahoe.  

Back on topic, I think that a careful evaluation of his system by an experienced hapkidoist could answer the question.  I am sure that you could look at an openly Aikido based art and see it (isn't there some SD oriented form of Aikido that dispenses with the religious and philosophical elements and focuses on practical application?).  Perhaps the Kido-hae did such an evaluation when the classified it.  

Daniel


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## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Back on topic, I think that a careful evaluation of his system by an experienced hapkidoist could answer the question.  I am sure that you could look at an openly Aikido based art and see it (isn't there some SD oriented form of Aikido that dispenses with the religious and philosophical elements and focuses on practical application?).



This is something called "Combat Aikido", ironically enough.  It straddles the line similarly to what Combat Hapkido does.  There are certainly techniques in the art that bear much resemblance to what I do daily in Aikikai, but there has been enough of a shift to squaring the hips into Uke along with an emphasis on striking that I think the "Combat" addition to the name is appropriate.

Like is the case here, some in aikido are personally offended that something like Combat Aikido exists, although their objection usually has more to do with the peaceful intent of aikido.  I am not concerned about it one way or another.

There is also Yoshinkan aikido which is very practical and is frequently trained in a tougher, more painful fashion than many other aikido dojos do.  I've always been intrigued by Yoshinkan and would love the opportunity to train with a shihan in the style someday.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Another question that I asked before and do not believe was answered by anyone (if it was, I missed it) is what organization GMP came up through, and specifically, who gave him his ninth dan?  Is he a Sinmoo hapkido yudanja?  Or some other hapkido kwan?

Daniel


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## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Another question that I asked before and do not believe was answered by anyone (if it was, I missed it) is what organization GMP came up through, and specifically, who gave him his ninth dan? Is he a Sinmoo hapkido yudanja? Or some other hapkido kwan?
> 
> Daniel


 
I believe it was In-Sun Seo...


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## dancingalone

I believe he got his higher dans through Kwang Sik Myung or at least some of them.  The Sin Moo group is Ji Han Jae's, and I believe he's the GM that emphasizes kicking, which would be a contradiction to Combat Hapkido's philosophy.


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## Drac

There use to be an ad in Black Belt magazine for something called Combat Tai-Chi..Not one word of protest was ever typed about it..


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## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> There use to be an ad in Black Belt magazine for something called Combat Tai-Chi..Not one word of protest was ever typed about it..


They challenged the rest of the Tai Chi community to face them in Tai Chi Kombat and won the tournament with flawless victory and enforced a no critic rule.

Daniel


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## Drac

Its really funny..I have been to alot of Combat Hapkido seminars and there have been people there from traditional Hapkido systems and I never heard any of them say anything negative..I worked with a few of them and after doing the whatever technique GMP was showing they would show me how their discipline would do the same technique..It was a good training experience...


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## Xue Sheng

Drac said:


> There use to be an ad in Black Belt magazine for something called Combat Tai-Chi..Not one word of protest was ever typed about it..


 
That is only because I didn't see it


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## Drac

Xue Sheng said:


> That is only because I didn't see it


 

I will look through some back issues and if I can find it I will post it..


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## goingd

In response to post a few pages back, please note that I did not say GM Peligrini demonizes traditional Hapkido, but that Combat Hapkido seems, to me, to do so.


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## Daniel Sullivan

goingd said:


> In response to post a few pages back, please note that I did not say GM Peligrini demonizes traditional Hapkido, but that Combat Hapkido seems, to me, to do so.


How?  A system cannot demonize anything.  That requires a human agent.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> The original post was about his rank.
> 
> He is the head instructor. He calls it Hapkido. I don't know how to make it more clear. He has chosen where to market himself and how.
> 
> I am talking about the man, his rank and what that effect has on the greater Hapkido community - *the original topic*.


Fair enough.  For discussion of the system, I have started a fresh thread. 

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87066

Daniel


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## goingd

Daniel Sullivan said:


> How? A system cannot demonize anything. That requires a human agent.
> 
> Daniel


A non-human entity absolutely has the power to present a rhetoric of any kind. Regardless, I still never pointed out Pelligrini as the one demonizing.


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## J Ellis

goingd said:


> A non-human entity absolutely has the power to present a rhetoric of any kind.


 
How exactly? I'm genuinely curious. I can't think of a way, but I may be overlooking the obvious.

Joel


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## Daniel Sullivan

goingd said:


> A non-human entity absolutely has the power to present a rhetoric of any kind. Regardless, I still never pointed out Pelligrini as the one demonizing.


Not a big deal, but I disagree.

For the benefit of not having to go back several pages:


goingd said:


> My problem is not with GM P. system or its  substance, or even so much with his rank. I take issue, though, mostly  with this rhetoric presented by Combat Hapkido that seems to demonize  Traditional Hapkido.


To say that the system demonizes traditional hapkido but GMP does not is splitting hairs; so far as I know, he is the author of all materials and the only one doing interviews to promote the system.  

Combat hapkido cannot present anything.  It is a system.  So if GMP is not presenting the rhetoric, then his organization is.  If that is the case, then you have a human agency; simply not GMP.  

Though I will agree that I have not seen GMP demonize traditional hapkido.  

Daniel


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## dancingalone

goingd said:


> A non-human entity absolutely has the power to present a rhetoric of any kind. Regardless, I still never pointed out Pelligrini as the one demonizing.



Rhetoric is simply the art of speaking or writing to communicate effectively.  Neither is possible unless you are a person.

A martial arts system is a collection of principles and techniques involving bodily movement.  On its own, it cannot do anything, including expressing negative opinions about another martial arts system.


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## yorkshirelad

It seems that Gm Pelligrini is both a competant teacher, likeable, professional and a good business man. I also like the fact that he doesn't claim to be all things to all people. He has sought out people who have specific martial arts knowledge and delgated facets of CHKD to them. I like this, it's admirable.

I have never trained with Pelligrini and I've never practiced CHKD, but I know people who have and they were impressed. I had a Drill sergeant in OSUT last Febuary who is a seasoned veteran and swore by what was taught in CHKD. In the same instance, I know of other quality individuals who swear by THKD. That's just the thing, if you like CHKD and your instructor, then do it. If you don't, then go somewhere else. It really is that simple.

We have people hear pointing out his rank and claiming it dubious, but please tell me where Ji Han Jae, Kwang Sik Myung, In Hyuk Suh, In Sun Seo or Joo bang Lee got their respective rank? In fact, I find it a little odd that Choi lost his menkyo in Yawara on a train and that there is no record of him ever studying Daito Ryu. He was obviously good at what he did and charismatic so people studied with him. Sounds a little like Pelligrini to me, but Pelligrini has the paper Choi didn't)

It seems that certain (not all) traditionalists exhibit a kind of snobbery towards CHKD, like it's their little brother art and therefore not worthy. Noone (as far as I know) has held a gun to anyone's head and made them train in CHKD. So why not let's just accept that we each have our own way of training. I loved my time in Sin Moo, but I was never adept at the kicking techniques and found most of them pointless. Do Ju Nim told me at a seminar in Germany in '99 that the kicks massage the organs and therefore the kicks are not meant necessarily for combat but for health purposes. I was also told that in the Sin Moo guidelines I shouldn't have sex anymore than (I think it was) once a week and that I should stay away from eating chicken because it negatively effected the lungs. I also found that the Dan Jun breathing did little for me and sometimes I felt rather silly doing it. I met people however who loved all aspects of Sin Moo and swear by it and more power to them.

I feel that something like CHKD is an improvement to THKD when it comes to defense. I believe that low line kicking makes the practitioner more stable and less vunerable. I also believe that dispensing with the meditation, Dan Jun breathing and the 25 basic kicks and special kicks lends more time to hand techniques and I believe that hand techniques are the more defense oriented aspects of Hapkido. I have only seen CHKD in videos on youtube, so I'm no means an authority.

To conclude, I would say that if you want a system that caters almost entirely to self defense, then coose CHKD. If, however you want a system that is more geared toward a health life with a dash of spirituality, then go for THKD. Again, it's horses for courses!


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## goingd

Remember, I also did not say that Pelligrini was not presenting that rhetoric. Through my study of advanced and mass communications, I have learned that communication goes far beyond speech. If we perceive something - anything - from a thing, an organization for example, it has communicated with us. In this way a human entity is not necessary in order to present rhetoric.

I can respect a point of view that sees little or no benefit in forms, dan jun, meditation, high kicks, et cetera. My perception, however, is that Combat Hapkido does not simply state that these things are unnecessary - it, to me, propagates that they are meaningless. While I do not expect everyone to agree with me, I personally see a great deal of self-defense value in forms, dan jun, meditation and high kicks. I do not remember where I saw it, but I read a statement by Pelligrini once that essentially seemed to describe all forms and high kicks as mere, valueless flash, at least per my perception. That is where I am bothered, where I take some offense.

I understand that everyone is not going to perceive this the way I do, but that is how I feel. I can respect GM Pelligrini for helping to promote martial arts and self defense to many people. I believe there is value in the technical aspects of his system, and I hope truly that it will completely benefit whoever learns it.


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## dancingalone

goingd said:


> Remember, I also did not say that Pelligrini was not presenting that rhetoric. Through my study of advanced and mass communications, I have learned that communication goes far beyond speech. If we perceive something - anything - from a thing, an organization for example, it has communicated with us. In this way a human entity is not necessary in order to present rhetoric.



Honestly, that's a bunch of hoo-ey.  Using that definition, one could conclude that clouds are converting me to Christianity because I happened to have seen a cross-like shape in them.

Any 'rhetoric' an inanimate or unsubstantial thing may pose is only strictly from the impressions a person chooses to read out of them.



> I can respect a point of view that sees little or no benefit in forms, dan jun, meditation, high kicks, et cetera. My perception, however, is that Combat Hapkido does not simply state that these things are unnecessary - it, to me, propagates that they are meaningless. While I do not expect everyone to agree with me, I personally see a great deal of self-defense value in forms, dan jun, meditation and high kicks. I do not remember where I saw it, but *I read a statement by Pelligrini once that essentially seemed to describe all forms and high kicks as mere, valueless flash, at least per my perception*. That is where I am bothered, where I take some offense.



If he said that, it would indeed make sense if you had an objection to what Pelligrini the person said.  It would hardly be logical to have the same feelings towards Combat Hapkido, the system, which is really only a collection of techniques and fighting principles.  Otherwise, to be consistent you should take the same offense at boxing or other systems that don't have forms or dan jun breathing or kicks.


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## Daniel Sullivan

goingd said:


> I can respect a point of view that sees little or no benefit in forms, dan jun, meditation, high kicks, et cetera. My perception, however, is that Combat Hapkido does not simply state that these things are unnecessary - it, to me, propagates that they are meaningless. While I do not expect everyone to agree with me, I personally see a great deal of self-defense value in forms, dan jun, meditation and high kicks. I do not remember where I saw it, but I read a statement by Pelligrini once that essentially seemed to describe all forms and high kicks as mere, valueless flash, at least per my perception. That is where I am bothered, where I take some offense.


The humorous thing here is that hapkido, as a general rule, does not have forms, at least not in the sense that taekwondo, Shotokan, or Tangsudo have them, so the idea that he finds little value in them should make little difference to the vast majority of hapkidoists.  

The question of high kicks is an MA issue, not a traditional vs. reality based.  Plenty of traditional systems, some of them hapkido, do not promote much in the way of high kicks.  Others, some of which are hapkido, most not, do promote them.  

Many people view them as 'arty' and feel that their value in SD is questionable, but certainly would not say that they are completely without value either.  Personally, I view them as high risk/low return moves for a whole host of technical reasons that have nothing to do with traditional hapkido.

If GMP or the tenets of his system mitigate against flashy high kicks, that is not demonization of traditional hapkido but a difference in philosophy, training methodology, and choice of tactics.

As far as danjun goes, at a *minimum* it is breath control, something which is (or should be) taught in every martial art in some fashion or another.  CHKD may not use the same training methodology, but proper breathing is essential in any martial art.  

Frankly, I see this as, again, appealing towards a different demographic, and one that would probably not be interested in traditional hapkido anyway (but who might after being exposed to CHKD).

Daniel


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## J Ellis

goingd said:


> Through my study of advanced and mass communications, I have learned that communication goes far beyond speech. If we perceive something - anything - from a thing, an organization for example, it has communicated with us.


 
You might want to keep studying. You're describing projection of your own biases, not objective communication from an outside party.

I'm not trying to defend CH or Mr. Pelligrini. But modifying a system and demonizing it are two very different things. I don't know whether Mr. Pelligrini has done the latter, but no evidence has been presented to suggest he has. He has undoubtedly done the former, and he obviously has his own reasons for doing so.

Just because someone does something differently than you or I do it does not mean they are criticizing or condemning those who do not follow their own practices. Know what you do, why you do it, and how to do it effectively, and then be content to let others do what they want. If their approach is flawed, the truth will eventually become apparent.

Joel


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## goingd

To be blunt, it would be absolutely lovely to be taken at what I said as a whole, not selectively. I made very clear that I understand and respect the system of CH, itself. I did not criticize the fact that it does not emphasize high kicks, forms, dan jun, etc. I would love for my statements to not be called "hoo-ey."

Communication is almost never intentional, believe it or not. Our perceptions are less about choice. We do not particularly choose to perceive the sky is blue - we are taught that the color of the sky is blue. An organization is a designed body with intention and purpose and can certainly convey a great deal more than a cloud.

I pointed out that I did not expect people to agree with me - I was not seeking to criticize and certainly not to argue. At that, I will leave the discussion to continue without me. Peace.


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## Daniel Sullivan

goingd said:


> Communication is almost never intentional, believe it or not. Our perceptions are less about choice. We do not particularly choose to perceive the sky is blue - we are taught that the color of the sky is blue. An organization is a designed body with intention and purpose and can certainly convey a great deal more than a cloud.


Nobody would disagree with this.  It is your use of the term rhetoric that raised eyebrows.  Rhetoric requires a human agent.  

The way that an organization is structured and it's stated goals may communicate things that are not directly stated, but this is not the same as rhetoric.

The reason that this was questioned is because your statement reads that you have no problem with GMP, but with his system's rhetoric which demonizes traditional hapkido.

Demonizing is also a very strong choice of wording, which is the other reason that your statement raised eyebrows.

Daniel


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## dortiz

Since this has turned in to a fun discussion.

"We do not particularly choose to perceive the sky is blue - we are taught that the color of the sky is blue."

I beg to differ here. The sky is Blue. We are taught to call the color we are perceiving blue but it is that color regardless. So the nature of it is what it is and how we perceive it is what it is. It is our definition of that and our perception which we are taught to label.


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## goingd

dortiz said:


> Since this has turned in to a fun discussion.
> 
> "We do not particularly choose to perceive the sky is blue - we are taught that the color of the sky is blue."
> 
> I beg to differ here. The sky is Blue. We are taught to call the color we are perceiving blue but it is that color regardless. So the nature of it is what it is and how we perceive it is what it is. It is our definition of that and our perception which we are taught to label.


Even though I said I would leave this question be, I have to respond to this fun one:
That was exactly my point. ^_^


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## Daniel Sullivan

I posted about this on another thread, but since the GMP=poor footwork comment was drilled to death in this thread, I thought I'd make mention of it here.

The Pasedena Maryland seminar has come and gone, and I was unable to  attend.  However, one of the guys from our school *did* attend.   This gentleman is a fourth dan and an instructor, and fairly  traditional, just for perspective. 

I asked him if GMP conducted the seminar, and he said that he had and  that he had been GMP's throw dummy a couple of times.  He had high  regard for GMP's execution.  

Since comments about his footwork have been made on many CHKD threads, I  specifically asked him about it, particularly the smaller steps that he  took in some of the videos that I have seen.  He said that there was  none of that and that GMP was very, very smooth and his footwork solid.   

While I did not see it personally, this gent's evaluation was good  enough for me to assume that GMP is capable and has a solid foundation.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> I believe it was In-Sun Seo...


So that would be Susinkwan?

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Fair enough.  For discussion of the system, I have started a fresh thread.
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87066
> 
> Daniel



I had a fairly long telephone conversation with Grand Master Pelligrini this morning.  Rather than double post, I posted it on the quoted thread.  He was informative, polite, and very nice to talk to.  I found him incredibly personable and in no way evasive or condescending.  Certainly, he did not have to take his time to call me back personally, nor did he need to answer any of what I asked him.

He took it all in stride and I must say that I came away with a great deal of respect for him.

Daniel


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## yorkshirelad

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I had a fairly long telephone conversation with Grand Master Pelligrini this morning. Rather than double post, I posted it on the quoted thread.
> 
> Daniel


I don't know where this thread is. Can you point me in the right direction please Daniel?


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## Daniel Sullivan

The link was in my quote, but here it is: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87066

Daniel


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## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I had a fairly long telephone conversation with Grand Master Pelligrini this morning. Rather than double post, I posted it on the quoted thread. He was informative, polite, and very nice to talk to. I found him incredibly personable and in no way evasive or condescending. Certainly, he did not have to take his time to call me back personally, nor did he need to answer any of what I asked him.
> 
> He took it all in stride and I must say that I came away with a great deal of respect for him.
> 
> Daniel


 
Very good Daniel. He is that way in person too..I have been told that there is a high ranking TKD Master doing seminars that will NOT talk to any of those in attendance.Questions or requests to speak to him are handled by his 2nd in command and are usually ignored..


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## yorkshirelad

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The link was in my quote, but here it is: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87066
> 
> Daniel


Thanks Daniel! It was a brain dead move on my part to miss the link and not refer to the other thread..... oh well.
It was an informative discussion you had with Mr Pelligrini. He seems like a class act, Good job!!


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## terrylamar

Daniel Sullivan said:


> ...Regarding other posters or a CHKD forum, Terry L dropped off because every thread that he started ended up being trolled and getting locked, and comments directed to him seemed to get personal in nature. I think he just got frustrated. Drac's input would be welcome. As for a CHKD forum, yes, I could go on one and ask, but I am more interested in the quality of the conversations on *this* forum.
> 
> Daniel


 
Sorry an old thread.  I dropped out because I returned to truck driving.  While frustrating, arguments over Combat Hapkido or GM Pelegrini didn't bother me.  I had a different focus in life.  I didn't participate much on any boards, other than trucking boards.

I now find myself with the same delimma, wanting to open a school or keep truckin'.  I quit the trucking I was working for and I'm sitting at home, soul searching, trying to decide what to do.  

Both have problems associated with them.  I own my own truck, I can buy a trailer and get my own authority.  I can continue to train, even out on the road.  I wouldn't have a school I could attend regularly, but even that is an opportunity to train all over the country as well as Canada.

What I am thinking about doing is continue my business as a Truck Driver and invest in a school, a partnership of some sort.  I can find someone to run the school while I am out on the road.  I would have somewhere to train when I am in town.  Having my own authority would allow me complete freedom to take the loads I want, go where I want and to return home when I desired.

I'm still thinking all of this out.  I will have to make my decission soon, before I run out of money or lose my driving skills.


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## Daniel Sullivan

So, I have to ask; Your truck: Peterbilt, Kenworth, Mack, or what?  And does it have a custom paint job with ghost flames and tons of chrome?  

Always thought big rigs were way cool!

When you open your school, what will the focus be?  HKD or TKD?  Both?

Best wishes to you, regardless of which road you choose to take.

Daniel


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## terrylamar

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So, I have to ask; Your truck: Peterbilt, Kenworth, Mack, or what? And does it have a custom paint job with ghost flames and tons of chrome?
> 
> Always thought big rigs were way cool!
> 
> When you open your school, what will the focus be? HKD or TKD? Both?
> 
> Best wishes to you, regardless of which *road  *you choose to take.
> 
> Daniel


 
Pun intended, I'm sure! 

I have a Peterbilt 387.  No flames, no chrome.  It is a working truck.  I enjoy driving, up to 750 miles per day.  I, only, stop then because of Federal Hours of Service won't permit me to drive over 11 hours at a time.  I have been to every state but HI.  I'm sure I'll be out there when they finish the bridge!   I have been to more Provinces and Territories in Canada than most Canadians ever will.

If I go the route of a partner, I sure they will have a say in what is taught.  I would want Taekwondo, Hapkido and Haidong Gumdo to be taught.  Then extras, such as, a Fitness Bootcamp, the Staff and Cane.  I would teach each descipline as a stand alone class, though I would throw some aspects of the other arts into different classes.  Gotta generate interest somehow!

That's the plan, anyway.


----------

