# Who "crusaded" first, islam or christianity



## billc (Jun 25, 2011)

Here is a break off from another thread.  One post commented about christian violence and mentioned the crusades.  I pointed out that the crusades were called to fight against muslim invasions of christian lands.  The muslims conquered spain, and led an expedition into france, I think,  over 50 years before the first crusade was called for by the pope.  Here is an article on the Islamic "crusades" that spread islam long before the christian "crusades."

http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/the_truth_about_islamic_crusad.html

for example:

732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099


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## billc (Jun 25, 2011)

Sukerkin, you may have to click down more than three times but the timeline bits are quick but there are a lot of them...

From the article:

The Timeline
630 Two years before Muhammad's death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting 'agreements' from northern tribes. They could enjoy the 'privilege' of living under Islamic 'protection' (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax (jizya).
This tax sets the stage for Muhammad's and the later Caliphs' policies. If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim governor.
632634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr the Muslim Crusaders reconquer and sometimes conquer for the first time the polytheists of Arabia. These Arab polytheists had to convert to Islam or die. They did not have the choice of remaining in their faith and paying a tax. Islam does not allow for religious freedom.
633 The Muslim Crusaders, led by Khalid alWalid, a superior but bloodthirsty military commander, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Sword of Allah for his ferocity in battle (Tabari, 8:158 / 161617), conquer the city of Ullays along the Euphrates River (in today's Iraq). Khalid captures and beheads so many that a nearby canal, into which the blood flowed, was called Blood Canal (Tabari 11:24 / 203435).
634 At the Battle of Yarmuk in Syria the Muslim Crusaders defeat the Byzantines. Today Osama bin Laden draws inspiration from the defeat, and especially from an anecdote about Khalid alWalid. An unnamed Muslim remarks: 'The Romans are so numerous and the Muslims so few.'  To this Khalid retorts: 'How few are the Romans, and how many the Muslims! Armies become numerous only with victory and few only with defeat, not by the number of men. By God, I would love it . . . if the enemy were twice as many' (Tabari, 11:94 / 2095). Osama bin Ladin quotes Khalid and says that his fighters love death more than we in the West love life. This philosophy of death probably comes from a verse like Sura 2:96. Muhammad assesses the Jews: '[Prophet], you are sure to find them [the Jews] clinging to life more eagerly than any other people, even polytheists' (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur'an, Oxford UP, 2004; first insertion in brackets is Haleem's; the second mine).
634644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn alKhattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.
635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus
636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.
637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of alQadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)
638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.
638650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.
639642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.
641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.
643707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.
644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.
644650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.
656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, soninlaw and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet's daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.
656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad's wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman's assassination. Ali's partisans win.
657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali
661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali's supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.
661680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus
673678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire
680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad's grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.
691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad's death.
705 Abd alMalik restores Umayyad rule.
710713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.
711713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. This article recounts how Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.
719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor
732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance
749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids
756 Foundation of Umayyid amirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids
762 Foundation of Baghdad
785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova
789 Rise of Idrisid amirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.
800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia
807 Caliph Harun alRashid orders the destruction of nonMuslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem
809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy
813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country
831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy
850 Caliph alMatawakkil orders the destruction of nonMuslim houses of prayer
855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)
837901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France
869883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq
909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia
928969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969)
937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places
937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked
960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam
966 AntiChristian riots in Jerusalem
969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo
c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East
973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids
1003 First persecutions by alHakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed
1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by alHakim (see 937)
1012 Beginning of alHakim's oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians
1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses
1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus
1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed
1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.
1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate
1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection
1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia
1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine
1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)
1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia
1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana
1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies
1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca
10901091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands
1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970
1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099
So it is only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christendom launches its first Crusades


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 25, 2011)

Again, I ask, "who cares?"


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## billc (Jun 25, 2011)

I am just trying to show that the "What about the crusades?" response to islamic aggression isn't even valid even though it occurred way back in history times...

Hmmmm...were the Islamic "crusades," more friendly than the christian ones that came after the slaughter of the Islamic occupations..?


From the article:

Conclusion
Though European Crusaders may have been sincere, they wandered off from the origins of Christianity when they slashed and burned and forced conversions. Jesus never used violence; neither did he call his disciples to use it. Given this historical fact, it is only natural that the New Testament would never endorse violence to spread the word of the true God. Textual reality matches historical reality in the time of Jesus.
In contrast, Muslims who slashed and burned and forced conversions did not wander off from the origins of Islam, but followed it closely. It is a plain and unpleasant historical fact that in the ten years that Muhammad lived in Medina (622&#8212;632), he either sent out or went out on seventy&#8212;four raids, expeditions, or full&#8212;scale wars, which range from small assassination hit squads to the Tabuk Crusade, described above (see 630). Sometimes the expeditions did not result in violence, but a Muslim army always lurked in the background. Muhammad could exact a terrible vengeance on an individual or tribe that double&#8212;crossed him. These ten years did not know long stretches of peace.


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## Archangel M (Jun 25, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Again, I ask, "who cares?"



I think it's an interesting counterpoint to the "WELL...WHAT ABOUT THE CRUSADES?!?!?" response you get whenever the issue of Islamic terrorism pops up.


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## elder999 (Jun 25, 2011)

billcihak said:


> I am just trying to show that the "What about the crusades?" response to islamic aggression isn't even valid even though it occurred way back in history times...
> 
> Hmmmm...were the Islamic "crusades," more friendly than the christian ones that came after the slaughter of the Islamic occupations..?


 

Dealing specificaly with the 8th century conquest of the Iberian peninsula, its motivations are lost to history, and the invading force was largely North African Berbers (Moors), who had only recently begun converting to Islam, and were probably, at best, lightly Islamic. THere is also the possibility that the invading force was invited to intercede in a local civil war. What is known is that because of the Islamic belief that Jews and Christians were "people of the book," Jewish and Christian communities were maintained for the next 300 years in Iberia......oh:

_What about the Crusafes
Islamic crusades more friendly
christian ones after slaughter
Islamic aggression not valid
even though it came before_


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## billc (Jun 25, 2011)

As long as they paid their tax and were routinely brutalized by their muslim overlords.  Muslims were brutal in their oppression of the other religions and the reality of muslim occupation is rarely exposed.

You mispelled Crusades in the first line of your poem.  I am a little offended that you care so little that you aren't more careful in your spelling.


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## billc (Jun 25, 2011)

A great book that explores the reality of jewish and christian life under muslim occupation is  the "Politically Incorrect guide to Islam and the crusades."

http://www.amazon.com/Politically-I...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1309023918&sr=8-2

It is a nice quick reference book that is only about $9.00 on the kindle.


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## Archangel M (Jun 25, 2011)

http://western-civilisation.com/displayArticle.aspx?contentID=1588&subgroupID=35



> In the untutored and rather demented world-view of Walter Scott et al., the 400 years of Muslim barbarism against European, Christian and Jewish lands which began in the 636 AD attack on Byzantium, are forgotten and dismissed. A massive swathe of territory stretching from Chaldean-Christian Iraq and Armenia, through the Levant, North Africa and into Spain and southern Italy and southern France were conquered, at the cost of millions of dead, and millions enslaved, by Muslim armies. This historical fact is rarely mentioned in academia, Hollywood or by experts in the lame-stream media. Europe by 1095 was in a death battle with Islam. This was even more true of Byzantium and eastern Christendom who were surrounded by Turkish territory and Jihad.



The whole "benign Islam" in Spain thing is a myth. Spain was force-ably invaded at the cost of many lives and Islam imposed. 

PS-The Berbers/Moors were lead by Arabs and the "Golden Age" of Moorish Spain was financed on the confiscated property and crushing taxation of non-islamic inhabitants. The "Begin Moorish rule" of Spain is a myth.


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## billc (Jun 25, 2011)

It seems from the list that the way Islam intervened in a local civil war was to start killing everyone, on both sides, and resolving the conflict that way.


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## elder999 (Jun 25, 2011)

billcihak said:


> A great book that explores the reality of jewish and christian life under muslim occupation is the "Politically Incorrect guide to Islam and the crusades."
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Politically-I...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1309023918&sr=8-2
> 
> It is a nice quick reference book that is only about $9.00 on the kindle.


 
And it's a ripoff at even that price.

The author, Robert Spencer, is clearly prejudiced-as a Christian-against Islam, he has said that Islam itself is an_ incomplete, misleading, and often downright false revelation_ which, in many ways, directly contradicts what God has revealed through the prophets of the Old Testament and through his Son Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh_ For several reasons Islam constitutes a threat to the world at large_
 
Regarding Keith Ellison taking an oath on the Quran, he said,  "I _hope there will be some who have the courage to point out that no American official should be taking an oath on the Quran, sinceas we have been pointing out here for over three years nowthere are so many elements of traditional and mainstream Islam that are at variance with our system of government, our Constitution, and our entire way of life. But since that is blandly denied and unexamined by the mainstream media and government officials, it is much more likely that Quranic oath-taking will be allowed without any discussion at all_." 

Finally, while the "what about the Crusades" argument has never passed my lips, I have to point out that a majority of terrorist acts against the U.S. were *not* committed by Muslims:

*1970s* - Sterling Hall bombing at the UWMadison, JDL bombings of Aeroflot office and Soviet offices in NYC, Weatherman bombings at U.S. Capitol in D.C. and Gulf Tower in Pittsburgh, shooting of Governor George Wallace of Alabama, Croatian terrorist hijacking of a TWA airliner, car bomb murder of Chilean govt officials by DINA, 

*1980s* - Armed members of FALN raid campaign headquarters of Jimmy Carter in Chicago and George H. W. Bush in NYC, Reagan assassination attempt, bombings at Pan Am terminal in NY by the Puerto Rican Resistance Army, FALN explodes bombs outside of the FBI office in NY and the US courthouse in Brooklyn, James W. von Brunn attempted to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve in Washington, D.C., Turkish diplomats in CA and MA killed by members of the Justice Commandos Against Armenian Genocide, U.S. Senate bombing by The Armed Resistance Unit, James Oliver Huberty went into a McDonalds in San Ysidro, CA and killed 21 people and injured 19 others before being killed himself, Rajneeshee bioterror attack in OR, 751 became ill, The Order murders Alan Berg in CO, JDL murders Alex Odeh in CA, George Hennard drove into Lubys diner in Killeen, TX and killed 23 people and wounded more than 20 before committing suicide, Dr. David Gunn murdered in Pensacola, Florida, 

*1990 to 1999*
- American Front Skinheads, pipe bombing in Tacoma WA
- Animal Liberation Front bombing in Franklin Township, N.J. of Circus Vehicles 
- Animal Liberation Front, 9 incidents of firebombing in Chicago, IL
- Boricua Revolutionary Front,Chicago IL, Car Fire and Attempted bombing 
- Frank Eugene Corder attempted to hit the White House with a single-engine Cessna, 
- Francisco Martin Duran fired at least 29 shots with a semi-automatic rifle at the White House, 
- Earth Liberation Front, Colo. Arson Fire at Ski Resort 
- Earth Liberation Front arson attack on Agriculture Hall of MSU and office complex in Monmouth, OR 
- Buford O. Furrow, a former member of the Aryan Nations, in a firearms attack on a Jewish Community Center in Granada Hills, CA wounded three children, a camp counselor, and a receptionist.
- Eric Harris & Dylan Kleboldat Columbine H.S.  killed 13 people and wounded 24 before commitng suicide, 
- Rev. Paul Jennings Hill murders Dr. John Britton and an assistant in FL 
- Ted Kaczinski, the Unabomber, 
- James Kopp murders Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, NY 
- Sgt. William J. Kreutzer, Jr.  killed one officer and wounded 17 other soldiers when he opened fire on a formation at Fort Bragg, NC.,
- Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, the Oklahoma City bombing
- Mexican Revolutionary Movement, attempted firebombing in Urbana IL
- Minnesota Patriots Council plots to assassinate law enforcement officials using ricin 
- Alfred Reumayr plot to blow up the Trans Alaska Pipeline 
- Eric Robert Rudolph, connected to The Army of God, carried out the Centennial Olympic Park bombing and abortion clinic bombing in Birmingham AL 
- John Salvi killed two receptionists in two clinic attacks in Brookline, MA 
- Benjamin Nathaniel Smith, a right-wing extremist and member of the World Church of the Creator, shooting rampage left two individuals dead and eight others wounded before Smith killed himself,  
- Russell Eugene Weston kills two in U.S.  Capitol shooting 

*2000 to 2011* 
- Jim D. Adkisson opened fire in the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville TN killing two and injuring seven (a note found in his SUV indicated this was intended as a suicide attack and said the church was apparently targeted because of its support of liberal social policies), 
- - Alabama Free Militia, five members of anti-immigration militia were arrested for planning a machine gun attack on Mexicans.  During raids by federal agents, authorities seized 130 hand grenades, two machine guns and more than 2,500 rounds of ammunition
- Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyds clinic in Albuquerque NM
- The Animal Liberation Front targeted a UCLA professor with a firebomb due to her research on animals, 
- Daniel L. Barefoot, Sharon Renee Barefoot, Jonathan A. Avery, Jonathan Maynard, Marvin G. Gautier and Rossie Lynwood Strickland , six members of the Nations Knights of the Ku Klux Klan pleaded guilty to a variety of weapons and conspiracy charges in connection with an illegal gun trading scheme in the early 2000s to finance a plan to blow up the Johnston County, North Carolina, courthouse. 
- Philip Bay planned a massacre of fellow Virginia Beach students
- John Patrick Bedell, an anti-government extremist walks into the Pentagon and opens fire, wounding two officers before he is himself shot dead.  
- Kody Brittingham, a Marine is arrested and charged with plotting to assassinate President Obama. Brittingham also collected white-supremacist material.  
- Seung-Hui Cho killed 32 people and wounded many others at Virginia Tech before committing suicide, 
- Daniel Cowart and Paul Schlesselman, two white power skinheads plot to target an African American High School and kill 88 blacks and decapitate 14 more (the numbers 88 and 14 are symbolic to white supremacists) and although expecting to fail try to assassinate Barack Obama, 
- Demetrius Van Crocker a white supremacist from rural TN attempted to acquire Sarin nerve gas and C-4 explosives that he planned to use to destroy government buildings, 
- James Cummings dirty bomb plot, Belfast, Maine, police discover the makings of a nuclear dirty bomb in the basement of a white supremacist shot dead by his wife. The man, who was independently wealthy, reportedly was agitated about the election of President Obama and was crafting a plan to set off the bomb.
- Matthew L. Derosia rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota 
- John Earl, a Catholic priest drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic and pulled out an ax before being shot at by a security guard, 
- Earth Liberation Front members plead guilty to burning The Center for Urban Horticulture at the University of Washington. 
- Paul Ross Evans left a package at a womens health clinic in Austin, Texas containing an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building. Paul Ross Evans (who had a criminal record for armed robbery and theft) was found guilty of the crime 
-  David Anthony Fuselier and 4 other members of the American Invisible Empire of the Ku Klux Klan were convicted in federal court in Louisiana on conspiracy and intimidation charges for burning a cross at the residence of three African-American men in Longville, Louisiana. The five men, who all pleaded guilty, had burned the cross in an attempt to coerce the victims into leaving the community
-  Matt Hale of the World Church of the Creator was convicted in 2004 of soliciting the murder of Chicago federal Judge Joan Humphrey Lefkow 
-  Jeffrey Harbin who has ties to the neo-Nazi National Socialist Movement (NSM) and was formerly a member of the neo-Nazi National Alliance, arrested for transporting 12 grenade-like improvised explosive devices. 
- Kevin William Hardham has been charged with illegal possession of an explosive device and attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction,  after leaving a backpack bomb with the potential of killing or injuring dozens of people along the route of a Martin Luther King Day unity march in downtown Spokane, Wash 
- Lucas John Helder rigged pipe bombs in private mailboxes to explode when the boxes were opened, He injured 6 people in Nebraska, Colorado, Texas, Illinois, and Iowa. His motivation was to garner media attention so that he could spread a message denouncing government control over daily lives and the illegality of marijuana.
- Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, LA, 
- David Hull, Pennsylvania Klan leader was convicted of a variety of illegal weapons charges in connection with an alleged plot to use hand grenades to attack abortion clinics; he also allegedly told an informant that he had turned his car into a suicide bomb on wheels. 
- Hutaree Christian warrior militia.  Seven militiamen from the Hutaree Militia in Michigan and Ohio are arrested and charged with plotting to assassinate local police officers with the intent of sparking a new civil war.
- An Idaho Mountain Militia Boys plot to kill a judge an a police officer and break a friend out of jail is uncovered, 
- Vadim Ignatov shooting attack on Muslim home in Oregon 
- Bruce Ivins anthrax attacks kill five across the U.S. with politicians and media officials as the apparent targets, 
- JDL plot by Irv Rubin and Earl Krugel to blow up the King Fahd Mosque and the office of Congressman Darrell Issa in CA foiled, 
- Jerry and Joe Kane, two sovereign citizens gunned down two police officers who pull them over for a traffic violation, and then wound two more officers in a shootout in which both of them are eventually killed.  
- Anarchist Joseph Konopka was found in possession of deadly amounts of sodium cyanide and potassium cyanide 
- William Krar is charged for his part in the Tyler poison gas plot, a white supremacist related plan, his weapons cache included a half a million rounds of ammunition, more than 60 pipe bombs, machine guns, silencers, and remote-controlled bombs disguised as briefcases.
- James J. Lee wearing explosives and carrying a gun took hostages at the headquarters of the Discovery Channel in Silver Spring, Maryland before being killed by police. He was protesting the channels anti environmental message and programming encouraging birth of humans who he called filthy 
- Ryan Daniel Lewis was convicted of arson in a number of incidents on behalf of the Earth Liberation Front in CA 
- Thomas Hayward Lewis, a white power skinhead arrested in Mobile Alabama for vandalism and cache of explosives found in his home
- Jared Lee Loughner, the alleged mass murderer who shot U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona at a political gathering
- Donny Love, Sr. has been indicted for his alleged role in bombing of the federal courthouse in downtown San Diego.  Multiple nail-laden pipe bombs exploded at a Federal Courthouse in San Diego causing considerable damage to the entrance and lobby and sending shrapnel two blocks away. The F.B.I. is investigating links between this attack and an April 25 explosion at the FedEx building also in San Diego
- Keith Luke went on shooting spree in MA to kill as many non whites and Jews as possible, 
- Dennis & Daniel Mahon send mail bombs to a diversity office in Scottsdale AZ that injure three, 
- Alberto Martinez - two officers were killed at Forward Operating Base Danger in Tikrit, Iraq by a deliberately placed mine,  Staff Sergeant Alberto B. Martinez was charged, but was acquitted in a court martial trial at Fort Bragg, NC, 
- David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Womens Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions
- Justin Carl Moose plot to bomb abortion clinics.  The FBI alleges he referred to himself as the Christian counterpart to (Osama) bin Laden 
- Donny Eugene Mower was arrested on federal charges of attacking a reproductive health clinic in Madera CA, and authorities said he also is responsible for vandalism and menacing signs left at the citys Islamic center. 
- Robert Pickett discharged a number of shots from a weapon in the direction of the White House, 
- Richard Andrew Poplawski - Three Pittsburgh police officers are fatally shot and a fourth wounded by Richard Andrew Poplawski, who had posted his racist and anti-Semitic views on white supremacist websites.
- Project 7, two members are arrested plotting to kill judges and law enforcement officials in order to kick off a revolution, 
- Charles Carl Roberts IV went into an Amish school in Lancaster County, PA and killed 5 girls before committing suicide,  
- Daniel and Timothy Robinson arrested in possession of materials to make bio-chemical weapons 
- Scott Roeder Assassination of Dr. George Tiller 
- Daniel James Schertz, N GA White Knights member pleaded guilty to building pipe bombs designed to blow up buses carrying Mexican and Haitian migrant workers from Tennessee to Florida 
- Kyle Shaw bombing of a Starbucks in Manhattans Upper East Side, police said his motive was to emulate Project Mayhem a series of assaults on corporate America 
- Joseph Stacks suicide flight into an IRS building.  
- Roger Stockham was arrested in a car laden with explosives outside one of the nations largest mosques in Dearborn MI
- Texas Militia former leaders plot to attack the Federal Building in Houston, 
- Bruce and Joshua Turnidge, a pair of Patriot movement radicals who wanted to attack the political infrastructurethreaten a bank in Woodburn, Oregon, with a bomb in the hopes of extorting money that would end their financial difficulties, for which they blamed the government. Instead, the bomb goes off and kills two police officers. The men eventually are convicted and sentenced to death for the crime. 
- Jomar Falu Vives a Fort Carson, CO soldier and Iraq war veteran accused of killing 2 people and wounding another in drive-by shootings, 
- U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting by James Wenneker von Brunn, 
- Lonnie Vernon and 4 others were arrested on charges connected with an alleged plot to kidnap or kill state troopers and a Fairbanks, Alaska judge
- Clayton Waagner, claiming to act on the part of the Virginia Dare Chapter of the Army Of God mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics, 
- white supremacists planned to bomb a series of institutions associated with the black and Jewish communities including the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, 
- Jeffrey Weise killed his grandfather and his grandfathers girlfriend on the Red Lake, MN Chippewa reservation, then went to Red Lake H.S. where he killed 7 people and wounded 5 others before committing suicide, 
- Byron Williams loads up on weapons and drives to the Bay Area intent on attacking the offices of the Tides Foundation and the ACLU, but is intercepted by state patrolmen and engages them in a shootout and armed standoff in which two officers and Williams are wounded. 
- Alexander Robert Youshocks plot to bomb a school in San Mateo, CA


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## granfire (Jun 25, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> http://western-civilisation.com/displayArticle.aspx?contentID=1588&subgroupID=35
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The price of faith....convert or pay...not exactly an uncommon practice in those days.
(Old Charlemagne was pretty good at lopping off a few heads of those barbarian heathens in the north east, around the 800s...)
Spain was ripe for the pickings as they would say, I suppose...but generally speaking - even in - gaspeth -  Christian dominated history sources, unlike under Christian rule, monotheistic religions were spared from forceful conversion under islamic rule.
Compare that to castration and torture under the inquisition....

As the crusades where only thinly veiled under religious pretemps, they were in fact a matter of imperialism and, gaspeth again, plain old greed.
Let's not forget that Constantinople was annihilated, the glitzy sister church to Rome in the East...

The REAL invasion threat did not appear in history until much later, as the Turks overtook the crumbling ruins of then Istambul and the Bysantine Empire...

Actually war faring and conquests was a way of life...


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 25, 2011)

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial][SIZE=-1]The Inquistion (Lets Begin) 
The Inquisition (Look out sin) 
We have a mission  
To convert the Jew (Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew) 
Were gonna teach them (Wrong from right) 
Were gonna help them (See the light) 
And make an offer that they cant refuse. 
(That the Jews just cant refuse) 

ConfessDont be boring 
Say yes Dont be dull 
A fact Youre ignoring 
Its better to lose your skullcap than your skull (Or your gavalt) 

The Inquisition (What a show) 
The Inquisition (Here we go) 
We know youre wishing that wed go away 
But the inquisitions here and its here to stay 

The inquisition (Oh boy) 
The inquisition (What joy) 
The inquisition (Oi oi) 

I was sitting in a chapel I was minding my own business 
I was listening to a lovely Hebrew mass 
Then these papus persons plungered  
And they throw me in a dungeon  
And they shoved a red hot poker up my *** 
Is that considerate? 
Is that polite? 
And not a tube of preparation H in sight. 

Im sittin flickin  chickens 
And was lookin thru the thickens 
When suddenly these guys break down the walls 
I didnt even know them  
And they grabbed me by the scrotum 
And they started playing Ping Pong with my balls 
Oy the agony 
Oy the Shame 
To make my privates public for a game 

The Inquisition (What a show) 
The Inquisition (Here we go) 
We know youre wishing that wed go away 
But the inquisitions here and its here to 

Hey Torquemada 
What do you say 

I just got back from the auto-da-f , 
auto-da-f  Whats the auto-da-f? 
Its what you oughtnt to do but you do anyway. 

Skit scat doodlebac doodle be bay 

Will you convert.NO NO NO NO 
Will you confess.NO NO NO NO 
Will you revert.NO NO NO NO 
Will you say YES.NO NO NO NO 

Now I asked in a nice way 
I said pretty please 
I bent their ears 
Now Ill work on the knees 

Hey Torquemada 
Walk this way 
We got a new game you might want to play 
Pull this handle, try your luck 
Who knows Torque, You might win a buck (All right) 

Put it in the car 
In the car In the car  

How we doing. Any converts today? 
Not a one Nay Nay Nay 
Weve flattened their fingers 
Weve branded their buns 
Nothing is working  
SEND IN THE NUNS 

The Inquisition (What a show) 
The Inquisition (Here we go) 
We know youre wishing that wed go away 
So come on all you heathens and you Jews 
We got some good news for all of yous 
Youd better change your point of views today 
Cause the inquisitions here and its here to say. 	[/SIZE][/FONT]


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 25, 2011)

Jesus Christ.

People/Hominids are inherently violent. Even groups of Chimpanzees will go to war against other groups to gain territory and mates.  

People have been killing each other for millions of years, well before the concepts of religion, nation-states, and honour were ever thought of. 

That the early muslims were violent comes as no surprise to anyone. Do you really think that the Chinese, Japanese, Norse, Picts or even the Angles were living in some garden of eden with butterflies, cornucopias of food and preaching tolerance and understanding?

Again I ask, Who ****ing cares? It was 1000 years ago, my ancestors from that time and I have little in common but for bits of DNA, how would it be any different for anyone else?

And people ask why Im an Atheist..


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## billc (Jun 25, 2011)

Yeah, atheists are also some of the most violent people in the world.


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## Big Don (Jun 25, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial][SIZE=-1]The Inquistion (Lets Begin)
> The Inquisition (Look out sin)
> We have a mission
> To convert the Jew (Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew)
> ...


What the Hell Bob? You couldn't link the video?


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## granfire (Jun 25, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Jesus Christ.
> 
> People/Hominids are inherently violent. Even groups of Chimpanzees will go to war against other groups to gain territory and mates.
> 
> ...




Go Away!

You are trying to make sense!


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 25, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Yeah, atheists are also some of the most violent people in the world.


 
And also a Conservative. Go figure.

What ever school you got your degree from, I'd ask for a refund, because they did a terrible job teaching you history.

BTW, after what i said, that was your comeback, that was your counter arguement?


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## billc (Jun 25, 2011)

Yes, it was essentially agreeing with your idea that people are violent and that includes atheists which, from your answer you were insinuating was a superior position to religous belief.


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## Balrog (Jun 28, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Again, I ask, "who cares?"


 
We should all care.  Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

The Islamic religion advocates jihad and murdering people who do not practice it.  That's perfectly okay to them.  However, that part of the world is still carrying a grudge from the christian crusades.  Apparently, it's not all right to do the same thing to them that they do to others.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Yeah, atheists are also some of the most violent people in the world.


 
Sadly The Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition is no longer around to save them from themselves and stop their violence by means of torture and execution


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 28, 2011)

This sort of thing really isn't debatable...they all attack each other..but they are now all dead and gone..lets move on.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2011)

OOPS

I forgot to add the link I wanted in that post

Adn it will not let me edit it....even though the edit button is still there...apparently I don't have the proper rights to add a link to my own post


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## Sukerkin (Jun 28, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Yes, it was essentially agreeing with your idea that people are violent and that includes atheists which, from your answer you were insinuating was a superior position to religous belief.



Well there is a difference, when it comes to inspiring people to violence, between "Because God says so" and "For this xyz practical reason".  

The former is a lot easier than the latter at stirring up irrational bloodlust.  That is until you get to the stage where the political or economic ideology of a nation reaches the same status as a religion (at least in terms of it's overt lip-service).  I reckon Stalin's Soviet Union fits that category quite closely i.e. suppressing the mythos-based faiths and replacing them with a State-Divinity, viz the Party, with the leader as it's High Priest.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 28, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Yes, it was essentially agreeing with your idea that people are violent and that includes atheists which, from your answer you were insinuating was a superior position to religous belief.


 

When it comes to wars...Atheists are usually the most peaceful people.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 28, 2011)

"I'll come in again!" was a favourite line at university, usually when a seminar position fell apart ignominiously .


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 28, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> "I'll come in again!" was a favourite line at university, usually when a seminar position fell apart ignominiously .


 

I don't get it...

I have never heard of an Athiest group that went to war...sure Obama claims we are a secular nation, but its mostly christian..so you can't claim that we are an athist nation.  If anything most a England is more Athiest than the US.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 28, 2011)

It was a reference to the Python sketch, *SP*, not a comment addressing what you'd said.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> "I'll come in again!" was a favourite line at university, usually when a seminar position fell apart ignominiously .


 


Sukerkin said:


> It was a reference to the Python sketch, *SP*, not a comment addressing what you'd said.




No worries... I got it


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 28, 2011)

I like the American "Office" better..lol


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## cdunn (Jun 28, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Well there is a difference, when it comes to inspiring people to violence, between "Because God says so" and "For this xyz practical reason".
> 
> The former is a lot easier than the latter at stirring up irrational bloodlust. That is until you get to the stage where the political or economic ideology of a nation reaches the same status as a religion (at least in terms of it's overt lip-service). I reckon Stalin's Soviet Union fits that category quite closely i.e. suppressing the mythos-based faiths and replacing them with a State-Divinity, viz the Party, with the leader as it's High Priest.


 
The unfortunate fact is that nearly any ideology, when pursued without restraint, can justify tremendous violence against the individual. Atheism, in and of itself, is a poor predictor due to the simple fact that it notates only a single point of disbelief - the atheist may subscribe to any of a wide variety of moral or philisophical systems. Stalin and Mao chose... poorly. 

While many of us will choose a variant of humanism as a guide, either consciously and deliberately, or from subconscious grasping at a few of the Enlightenment principles still taught in the West, it is not universal, any more than the Christian heresy/theologies of _sola scriptura_ and redemption by faith alone are universal to all Christians. 

... And the Holy Lands have been the site of warfare for so long that we can count tit for tat crap back to before we learned how to write. Not good justification for anyone.


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## billc (Jun 28, 2011)

Sensei Payne, the communists went to war and murdered over 100 million people and they didn't do it during a medieval period but in the modern times of then mid-20 century Europe.  The chinese, russian, vietnamese, cuban and cambodian communists were atheists and killed a whole bunch of people.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Sensei Payne, the communists went to war and murdered over 100 million people and they didn't do it during a medieval period but in the modern times of then mid-20 century Europe. The chinese, russian, vietnamese, cuban and cambodian communists were atheists and killed a whole bunch of people.


 

You REALLY have to stop posting things like this, it makes me nervous when you do because I agree with your post :anic: :uhyeah:

The only religious group that never started a war, as far as I know, are Buddhists. However I would need to check that to be sure


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## billc (Jun 28, 2011)

Quakers?  Although that one did kill the bad guy who was going to kill Gary Cooper.  Does that count?


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## billc (Jun 28, 2011)

As a way of including a martial arts element into the discussion, although I did Iaido for 6 years before returning to Filipino sword arts, I never really read too much Japanese history.  Weren't a lot of the samurai, a rather murderous group of warriors, as much as any other medieval group of warriors, Bhudists to a large extent?  The ones who weren't Bhudists were believers in shinto?


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## elder999 (Jun 28, 2011)

billcihak said:


> As a way of including a martial arts element into the discussion, although I did Iaido for 6 years before returning to Filipino sword arts, I never really read too much Japanese history. Weren't a lot of the samurai, a rather murderous group of warriors, as much as any other medieval group of warriors, Bhudists to a large extent? The ones who weren't Bhudists were believers in shinto?


 

In fact they were probably more Shintoists than Buddhists......


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2011)

billcihak said:


> As a way of including a martial arts element into the discussion, although I did Iaido for 6 years before returning to Filipino sword arts, I never really read too much Japanese history. Weren't a lot of the samurai, a rather murderous group of warriors, as much as any other medieval group of warriors, Bhudists to a large extent? The ones who weren't Bhudists were believers in shinto?






elder999 said:


> In fact they were probably more Shintoists than Buddhists......


 
What Elder said

And even if a samurai was Buddhist he was not at war or going to war because he was Buddhist he was at war and happened to be a Buddhist. He was going to war under the flag of the daimyo not under the flag of Buddhism. I guess I am trying to say I have never heard a fundamental Buddhist war or ethnic cleansing rant


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## granfire (Jun 28, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> What Elder said
> 
> And even if a samurai was Buddhist he was not at war or going to war because he was Buddhist he was at war and happened to be a Buddhist. He was going to war under the flag of the daimyo not under the flag of Buddhism. I guess I am trying to say I have never heard a fundamental Buddhist war or ethnic cleansing rant




I think a point often overlooked is that by the time the Samurai code developed, Japan was at virtual peace and the Samurai largely out of work....


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## James Kovacich (Jun 28, 2011)

billcihak said:


> As long as they paid their tax and were routinely brutalized by their muslim overlords. Muslims were brutal in their oppression of the other religions and the reality of muslim occupation is rarely exposed.
> 
> You mispelled Crusades in the first line of your poem. I am a little offended that you care so little that you aren't more careful in your spelling.


 
I'm not sure where your getting your info from about the Islam Jihadists and Brutallity and such from such a long time ago.
http://explorethemed.com/reconquista.asp?c=1
But the link above info is "in-line" with all that I've ever heard and further it is widely known that Mulims, Christians and Jews lived as neighbors in peace under Arab rule and even intermarried. Considering nearly all of Spain was conquered it's easy to see that my Spanish ancestors as well as most everyones ancestors with Spanish ancestry lived an Arabic lifestyle and spoke their language. They were conquered which was "the norm" in those days.

*After their reconquest it was "our turn." Everybody was conquered at some point.*


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 29, 2011)

I got it

Here is the answer to the whole darn issue


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## Sukerkin (Jun 29, 2011)

I had forgotten just how brilliant that song was - creative video too ... whatever happened to those {videos that enhanced the musics message}?

What struck me is that if you listen carefully to some of those lyrics, guess which places got a mention?  From 1989 to now; two decades on and the same hot-spots still on fire .


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 29, 2011)

Just an observation but since the Muslims don't use a cross, they can very well crusade. Wouldn't it be more like a crescent-ade?:uhyeah:
Sean


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