# Politically Incorrect Poem - Merry Christmas!



## jetboatdeath (Dec 9, 2009)

T'was The Month Before Christmas
When all through our land,
Not a Christian was praying
Nor taking a stand.
See the PC Police had taken away,
The reason for Christmas - no one could say.
The children were told by their schools not to sing,
About Shepherds and Wise Men and Angels and things.
It might hurt people's feelings, the teachers would say
 December 25th is just a ' Holiday.
Yet the shoppers were ready with cash, checks and credit
Pushing folks down to the floor just to get it!
CDs from Madonna, an X BOX, an I-pod
Something was changing, something quite odd! 
Retailers promoted Ramadan and Kwanzaa
In hopes to sell books by Franken & Fonda.
As Target was hanging their trees upside down
 At Lowes the word Christmas - was no where to be found.
At K-Mart and Staples and Penny's and Sears
You won't hear the word Christmas; it won't touch your ears.
Inclusive, sensitive, Di-ver-si-ty
Are words that were used to intimidate me.
Now Daschle, Now Darden, Now Sharpton, Wolf Blitzen
On Boxer, on Rather, on Kerry, on Clinton !
At the top of the Senate, there arose such a clatter
To eliminate Jesus, in all public matter.
And we spoke not a word, as they took away our faith
 Forbidden to speak of salvation and grace.
The true Gift of Christmas was exchanged and discarded
The reason for the season, stopped before it started.
So as you celebrate 'Winter Break' under your 'Dream Tree'
Sipping your Starbucks, listen to me.
Choose your words carefully, choose what you say
Shout MERRY CHRISTMAS , not Happy Holiday!
Please, all Christians join together and wish everyone you meet during
the holidays a MERRY CHRISTMAS
Christ is 'The Reason' for the Christmas Season!


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## girlbug2 (Dec 9, 2009)

I like your poem.

Does Target really hang their trees upside down now? I actually rather like that idea. I wish I could figure out how to do that in my own home.


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## terryl965 (Dec 9, 2009)

Graet poem


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## David43515 (Dec 9, 2009)

I liked the Poem too. 

A very Merry Christmas to one and all.


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## CrimsonPhoenix (Dec 9, 2009)

Great poem. Thank you for posting this!

I will continue being politically incorrect.... Merry Christmas everyone!


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## Jdokan (Dec 9, 2009)

when I get the "Happy Holidays"  I respond with: "Thank You so much!!! ...Merry Christmas to you and Happy HOLY-DAYS to you"  that typically gets me an evil look to which I smile, turn & walk away.....

I think I'm going straight to hell..........
Merry Christmas ! !!  Everybody!!
j,


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 9, 2009)

I thought the poem was a bunch of paranoid bullocks.

And Merry Christmas to All.


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## shesulsa (Dec 9, 2009)

I expect those of the Jewish faith to wish everyone around them a Happy Hanukkah (though I've only seen it twice); I'm often wished Happy Kwanzaa ... by everyfreakinbody ... and I do still hear Merry Christmas from my neighbors, friends, students and their families and Happy Holidays from athiests.

So ... I think we need to stop taking responsibility for everyone's sleeved feelings.  If you don't like being barraged by lights, trees, decor and music between Halloween and New Years, then stock up all year for that two-month period and stay the freak inside.

Otherwise, you *could* stop taking yourself to damn seriously and enjoy that others are having a good time, are celebrating something that is special to them in their own way. Better that than mass hysteria, rioting, looting, etcetera.

Oh ... and ...

_*MERRY
CHRISTMAS!*_​


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## Flea (Dec 10, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> I thought the poem was a bunch of paranoid bullocks.
> 
> And Merry Christmas to All.



:asian:



> If you don't like being barraged by lights, trees, decor and music between Halloween and New Years, then stock up all year for that two-month period and stay the freak inside.


Actually, I do just that.  

Few methods of group cohesion are as effective as a belief in persecution.  It speaks to such hard-wired instincts as fear of death, safety in numbers, and the smug pleasure of superiority over the unwashed.   In the United States, there is no widespread persecution of Christians, or of Christ.  There has never been such persecution.  Deal with it.

Personally, I hate everything about Christmas.  I have no problem with Jesus or His legacy.  What I don't like is how that legacy is ritually mutilated into something unrecognizable - a capitalist glut in which people are literally killed for a discount on a TV set.  I think it also says a lot that at this "most wonderful time of the year," the suicide rate peaks.  

I'd be a lot happier with Christmas if it held closer to it's original meaning of Christ-mass.  Or better yet, since we have no dependable record of when His birth actually occurred, let's be _honest_ about the original Christmas practice - observing the winter solstice and the return of daylight. In other words, the light of the world. :uhyeah: There's nothing wrong with that, and cultures around the world have beautiful and rich traditions dedicated to it.  And it's completely compatible with celebrating the birth of Jesus to sit up all night communing with friends and loved ones to greet the sunrise with a special celebration.


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## crushing (Dec 10, 2009)

Happy Chrismahanukwanzakah!

And, may you enjoy the solstice full tilt.


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## Jade Tigress (Dec 10, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> I like your poem.
> 
> Does Target really hang their trees upside down now? I actually rather like that idea. I wish I could figure out how to do that in my own home.



You can buy them. More on that here.

Oh, and *MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!*


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## Steve (Dec 10, 2009)

I think that this entire sentiment is BS.  My belief is that the entire concept of political correctness is an excuse to foist one's own beliefs onto other people under the guise of NOT being politically correct.  I can say just about whatever I want to you, no matter how offensive, if I preface it by saying, "Forgive me for not being politically correct, but...."  

I have absolutely no problem with people saying, "Merry Christmas."  I also have zero issues with people saying, "Happy Holidays."  It's a non-issue.  But it turns my stomach when some self-righteous zealot insists that this is Jesus Day.  Please.  Get off your high horse and stop being so politically correct.


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## Steve (Dec 10, 2009)

Jdokan said:


> when I get the "Happy Holidays" I respond with: "Thank You so much!!! ...Merry Christmas to you and Happy HOLY-DAYS to you" that typically gets me an evil look to which I smile, turn & walk away.....
> 
> I think I'm going straight to hell..........
> Merry Christmas ! !! Everybody!!
> j,


Couple of things.  First, I doubt you've ever actually done this.  It's a cute story, but while I've read stories like this, I've not once in my years of working in retail, in sales and in just interacting with other Americans, seen something like this occur in real life.  So, forgive me, but I don't believe you.  I've seen some reprehensible behavior in my time, but my experience is that when it occurs, it's done without thought and not planned out as you suggest.

That said, let's presume you did do this.  You're saying it's something you've thought out.  You've got your script all ready to go.  Why?  What do you hope to gain?  Are you really so threatened and upset during what is for you (I'm guessing) a happy, joyful season?  Are you so easily offended and thin skinned?  Is your intent to make people around you feel uncomfortable or just bad?  I don't get it.


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## CoryKS (Dec 10, 2009)

Flea said:


> :asian:
> 
> Actually, I do just that.
> 
> ...


 
It's funny how you start off complaining about smug superiority and then go off on a tirade about how everybody's doing it wrong.  I would suspect that the 'mutilation of the legacy' or whatever probably has more to do with atheists like me who choose to continue a tradition passed to us by our more religious parents.  Most of the people that I know who are _actually_ religious, rather than those who use the "I'm not religious I'm spiritual" copout, tend to focus on the birth of Christ rather than the gifts and pageantry.  I'm more of a "ho-ho-ho and mistletoe and presents for pretty girls" kinda guy.  Sorry if that bothers you, but I'm having a great time.  And I've managed not to stab anyone in the neck over a cheap DVD player.  Yet.  As far as I know.  

Oh, and that increase in suicides?  Not so much.  

Regarding the OP - this poem offends me deeply, and I must naturally expect that you and everybody on the internet must never utter those words again here or in any other forum, lest mine eyes chance upon it and my self-esteem be dealt a heavy blow.  

Nah, j/k.  Merry Christmas.


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## Steve (Dec 10, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> Nah, j/k. Merry Christmas.


And happy holidays, too!


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## CoryKS (Dec 10, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> And happy holidays, too!


 
Take that back, pagan!


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 10, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> I think that this entire sentiment is BS. My belief is that the entire concept of political correctness is an excuse to foist one's own beliefs onto other people under the guise of NOT being politically correct. I can say just about whatever I want to you, no matter how offensive, if I preface it by saying, "Forgive me for not being politically correct, but...."
> 
> I have absolutely no problem with people saying, "Merry Christmas." I also have zero issues with people saying, "Happy Holidays." It's a non-issue. But it turns my stomach when some self-righteous zealot insists that this is Jesus Day. Please. Get off your high horse and stop being so politically correct.


 
In the South we just add "...bless your heart" on the end of everything. 

For example: "I just can't believe some people are so stupid to think that Christmas is about anything other than celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, bless their hearts"

See how that works? LOL

The whole thing's gone completely out to left field. If you don't want to participate in the celebration then don't, but it's an established holiday and ritual as the majority of Americans are Christian so get over it. 

Just shut your pie-hole already, celebrate if you want and however you want and stop trying to ruin it for everybody else. 

And quit wasting my tax money tieing up the court system with your frivolous law-suits fighting it. 


by the way....

MERRY CHRISTMAS!


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## Flea (Dec 10, 2009)

Well, bless your heart!    :lol:


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## Marginal (Dec 10, 2009)

Jdokan said:


> when I get the "Happy Holidays"  I respond with: "Thank You so much!!! ...Merry Christmas to you and Happy HOLY-DAYS to you"  that typically gets me an evil look to which I smile, turn & walk away.....


Nonsense like this is why I say, "have a nice day." I don't really like knowing who has a flimsy grasp on their own faith. It's as if pool ol' Jesus will vanish on 'em if they're not braying about Christmas constantly. (Doubly funny since the whole anti PC guff just amounts to people with a different agenda trying to impose their own collection of PC rules about what can and can't be spoken of.)


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 10, 2009)

Note: Problem with my keyboard settings, so some of the characters are wonky, like my apostrophe -- è



Flea said:


> :asian:
> 
> Actually, I do just that.



That goes to another issue not specifically addressed in the poem, but one which affects many. I think many people experience pressure to be happy and involved in the Christmas Season. Add up the school concerts, visits with family, financial stress, and the overall kitch, and it does wear people down. Additionally, for lots of people, the family Christmas gathering is a gluttonous alcohol-induced hostage drama than a celebration. My objection to the poem is that while the above are probably connected to a lost meaning of Christmas, they donèt really have anything to do with PC or with the presence of other celebrations -- Hannukah, Ramadan, Kwanzaa, etc.



> Few methods of group cohesion are as effective as a belief in persecution.  It speaks to such hard-wired instincts as fear of death, safety in numbers, and the smug pleasure of superiority over the unwashed.   In the United States, there is no widespread persecution of Christians, or of Christ.  There has never been such persecution.  Deal with it.



QFT. Christmas and Christianity are not under siege in North America.  They merely share the stage with other events and beliefs. PC is invoked as a phantom menace by people who say, _Ièm going to be terribly un-PC now and wish you a Merry Christmas. _



> Personally, I hate everything about Christmas.  I have no problem with Jesus or His legacy.  What I don't like is how that legacy is ritually mutilated into something unrecognizable - a capitalist glut in which people are literally killed for a discount on a TV set.  I think it also says a lot that at this "most wonderful time of the year," the suicide rate peaks.



Ièm non-religious myself. Even from my secular perch, I appreciate the core meaning of the celebration. The narrative that drives the event is compelling and highly relevant, even for a relative non-believer such as myself.

The commercialization and distortion of Christmas have been around for a long time. I certainly agree that the season has become about getting stuff at all costs; I just buy the connections that are being made in the poem:



> Retailers promoted Ramadan and Kwanzaa
> In hopes to sell books by Franken & Fonda.



I donèt get it. Does Fonda even write books anymore. I think Franken is Jewish, but to my knowledge has never voiced any contempt for Christmas. Nor do I get the references to various other politicians, pundits, and other figures. Ièm not seeing how any of these folks takes point in the war on Christmas.


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## Marginal (Dec 10, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> I donèt get it. Does Fonda even write books anymore. I think Franken is Jewish, but to my knowledge has never voiced any contempt for Christmas. Nor do I get the references to various other politicians, pundits, and other figures. Ièm not seeing how any of these folks takes point in the war on Christmas.


The meaning's pretty straightforward. Franken's existence directly enables terrorism, and liberals in general are godless or at the least, wronggodded.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 10, 2009)

Marginal said:


> The meaning's pretty straightforward. Franken's existence directly enables terrorism, and liberals in general are godless or at the least, wronggodded.



Its nice to see how openminded and objective you are, as always Marginal.

Gordan, 

I see that as basically a statement saying that these Stores, politicians etc are being over-sensitive about CHRISTmas.  They have no problem promoting what are seen as "minority" holidays this time of year, Kwanza, Hanukkah, etc... but will not use the Christ-word for fear of upsetting the anti-Christianity crowd.  It's sort of a double standard. 

Personally I don't give a ****.  I celebrate my way, I shop where I want, and I say what I want.  "Holiday, Christmas, Hanukka," etc.  

So MERRY CHRISTMAS to All, even if you don't celebrate Christmas.  

Feel free to wish me merry Anything you want.  Except that ******** Seinfeld holiday... I hate that ***** and the Holiday he invented.


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## Marginal (Dec 10, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Its nice to see how openminded and objective you are, as always Marginal.


I'm just being anti PC (since it's all a fight for the "right" to be a rude jackass) like all the cool kids. Given the source, (which is also demanding that kids be proselytized in public schools) it's not hard to puzzle out the actual sentiment behind the line.


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## shesulsa (Dec 10, 2009)

Bah humbug, peeples.

Shout if from the steeples.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 10, 2009)

...and that's another thing....

There's nothing negative or harmful intended by the greeting. 

There's not one light in or on my house, much less a Christmas tree (that's what it is... a Christmas tree by the way.) 

It's not because I'm a "Scrooge" or anything, I just don't get wrapped up in it beyond getting gifts for family and friends. I can afford it, luckily, and it makes them happy. In the end, that's what it's about for me anyway; bringing some joy into the lives of people I care about.  

I recognize why the holiday was established. It doesn't offend me and it boggles my mind as to why anyone would find it offensive. I mean, a true atheist shouldn't give two cents really. Besides, what's offensive about the spirit of giving and spreading of good will? If you find that offensive you've got more issues than just the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. 

I also don't find Kwanza or Hanukka offensive either. Why would I? They're not celebrating or endorsing the killing, enslavement, or any other bad thing of bald Irish beer drinking guys that love martial arts. They're not trying to take away my X-Box or increase my taxes or otherwise rob me blind. 

If somebody greets me with "Happy Kwanza" or "Happy Hanukka" it's meant in good cheer and not negative by any means. People have become so hateful that even when the intent behind something is good, they find a way to turn it into something negative. And that would be fine, if they just kept it to themselves, but it's not enough for them to live a miserable existance by themselves...nooooo... they want to drag everybody else into the cess pool with them. Misery loves company I guess....

So what's the big deal anyway and why's it always about Christmas? What's next? Easter? Thanksgiving? ....July 4th? Probably July 4th because it's too patriotic and Obama will cave to the fact that his wife is ashamed of America and cancel it. Give me a break. :shrug: I'm just kidding about July 4th and that does sound ridiculous doesn't it.... but if you told somebody just 10+ years ago that the "Christ" part of "Christmas" would become so offensive to some that school children would no longer do Christmas plays and so forth anymore they's probably have laughed at you about that too. 

If you hate Christmas and what it stands for then hate it. I just wish those that do would be considerate enough to hate it by themselves.


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## shesulsa (Dec 10, 2009)

All three of my kids are musical and my daughter and I sing carols in the car with the round-the-clock Christmas station together.  I've been commenting on a few carols about the story they tell as it relates to the Christmas story.  We break out the Bible every year and revisit the story amongst the lights and the gifts and the food and the hullabaloo.


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## Marginal (Dec 10, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> If somebody greets me with "Happy Kwanza" or "Happy Hanukka" it's meant in good cheer and not negative by any means. People have become so hateful that even when the intent behind something is good, they find a way to turn it into something negative. And that would be fine, if they just kept it to themselves, but it's not enough for them to live a miserable existance by themselves...nooooo... they want to drag everybody else into the cess pool with them. Misery loves company I guess....


Pretty much this. Along the same lines, Happy Holidays is the same sentiment.


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## Steve (Dec 10, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> ...and that's another thing....
> 
> There's nothing negative or harmful intended by the greeting.
> 
> ...


I agree with you for the most part. One thing you hint at is a distinction between Christmas as a christian holiday and Christmas as a secular holiday. I think that Christians should, by all means, celebrate the birth of Christ and do the things that they believe are right in this season. but let's face it people. Santa Claus has pagan roots.  The holiday has a distinctly secular side and many... many people who celebrate christmas don't give a hoot about any religious underpinnings.  Many others happily combine the two.

But two distinct things they remain.  Christmas at its root is a christian usurpation of a pagan holiday and from the yulelog to the missleteo to old St. Nick himself, these vestiges remain.

The point once again is to lighten up.  Let everyone celebrate as they wish.  It's NOT just about christ, although if it is for you, great!


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## Flea (Dec 10, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> All three of my kids are musical and my daughter and I sing carols in the car with the round-the-clock Christmas station together.  I've been commenting on a few carols about the story they tell as it relates to the Christmas story.  We break out the Bible every year and revisit the story amongst the lights and the gifts and the food and the hullabaloo.



Georgia, I think that's beautiful.  If it brings you and your loved ones a sense of joy and meaning, then Christmas is doing its job.  That's what it's supposed to be all about, and I salute you.  I'll even go further than that - I envy you.  I used to enjoy Christmas, and I miss that.  But for me, it's gone.

Cory, I appreciate your note too.  I think you may have misconstrued some of my points.  With the "dying for a deal on a TV set," I was referring to this horror story from last year.  I assumed everyone was familiar with that; I apologize.  I may have been a little heavy-handed about criticizing the way Christmas is observed, but on this point I stand by it.  No one should have to die over the gift-giving tradition.  That's wrong.

I wasn't really insisting that people drop the birth of Jesus in favor of observing the Solstice either.  It was merely a suggestion; something that has been meaningful to me.  I know several Christians who combine elements of both, including a couple with a Christian husband and an Iranian wife; they stay up all night with friends on Shab-e-yal-Dah and greet the sunrise, often with Christmas carols.  It's not about dogma, it's about community and friendship, and that works beautifully for them.

As for the suicide question, I appreciate the link.  As fate would have it, I happened to have an appointment with my psychiatrist this afternoon so I asked her.  She said that she's seen research on the holiday suicide rate going both ways - some studies find a correlation and some don't.  In her own professional experience, she's seen a correlation.  She says it tends to be hardest on people with major family issues, which makes a lot of sense.  And that the impact of "Holiday depression" has a lot to do with a person's underlying diagnosis in the first place.  So we're both right on that one. :idunno:

In any case, I don't begrudge anyone a sense of meaning and happiness from this time of year.  It just doesn't speak to me personally, and that's fine too.


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 10, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> I agree with you for the most part. One thing you hint at is a distinction between Christmas as a christian holiday and Christmas as a secular holiday. I think that Christians should, by all means, celebrate the birth of Christ and do the things that they believe are right in this season. but let's face it people. Santa Claus has pagan roots. The holiday has a distinctly secular side and many... many people who celebrate christmas don't give a hoot about any religious underpinnings. Many others happily combine the two.
> 
> But two distinct things they remain. Christmas at its root is a christian usurpation of a pagan holiday and from the yulelog to the missleteo to old St. Nick himself, these vestiges remain.
> 
> The point once again is to lighten up. Let everyone celebrate as they wish. It's NOT just about christ, although if it is for you, great!


 
Exactly. Most all holidays have evolved from what would be considered "pagan" holidays... Easter is the first that comes to my mind actually. 

In this case though, it seems the Christians are the one's being offended the most. And keep in mind, I'm not biased in that regard...just making an observation. 

The current incarnation of the holiday is a "Christain" one... the root word is after all "Christ" regardless of the other borrowed symbols and traditions that have been merged into it. 

To me, it's funny how it's seems acceptable in our current society to strip Christians of their traditions yet if it were attempted of any other group, religious or otherwise, the status quo would stand up cry foul. 

I still haven't figured that one out.... but I haven't figured out how Affirmative Action is supposed to be "fair" either... I'm just wierd I guess. 

I grew up watching Rudolph, Santa Clause is Coming to Town, and The Little Drummer Boy *all* as a part of the holiday. The majority of American families had a manger scene as part of the holiday decor. As rooted in our culture, the holiday is indeed a relgious one even though Corporate America has taken advantage of the "gift giving" aspect to the point where many have forgotten that. 

Even I, who am not religeous, appreciate the reason for the season; which was a supremely unselfish gift to mankind. The philosophical meaning behind the birth of Christ is that a "father" gave as a gift to mankind his only "son" as a sacrifce to save us from ourselves is a pretty profound thing, dude. 

People forget that. I don't care what you believe in, that's a lesson worth remembering. That giving, not of material things as Corporate America would prefer, but of oneself... of much more, with kindness and expecting nothing in return is truely humbling and worth doing because it makes us better people for it. 

By stripping those "Christian' aspects from the holiday all you're left with is Corporate America's vision of convincing you to go into debt and running up your credit cards to buy the "love" of your friends and family or suffer shame and embarrassment... I kind of prefer to other "love" taught by the religious root of the holiday personally, unselfish giving beyond the material. I think it's a better lesson for humanity as a whole. 

...just an observation.


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## Steve (Dec 10, 2009)

I appreciate your points, Crippler, but I'm not sure I can completely agree.  The sentiment you speak of, the idea of giving, the themes of rebirth and celebration, predate christianity by a long shot.  

The term Yule itself is a holdover from the pagan holiday celebrating the birth of the pagan Sun God being born.  Holly and mistletoe were references to fertility, if I remember correctly.  

Santa Claus is a mishmash of pagan folk characters.  One of my favorite stories is a beltain story about the Holly King and the Oak King.  The Holly King is just one of many interesting sources.

But getting back to the point, Christmas was an invention of the Pope... Julius I think, but that might not be right.  Anyway, the point is that Jesus was very likely not even born in December.  The date was chosen as a way to make conversion of the pagan Romans just a little easier.  The incorporation of so many of the pagan traditions (including many of the things that you guys insist are "Christian" lessons such as giving, charity, celebration, family and good will) was to keep people happy as they converted to christianity.

Once again, I'm only going into all of this simply to demonstrate that this is NOT a christian gig, regardless of what you call it.  Like Kwanzaa, someone invented it.  A person.  A guy with an agenda.  Imbue these times with whatever religious or spiritual significance you'd like, but don't begrudge others the same. 

 And if someone opts to say, "Happy Holidays" in an effort to be inclusive, be charitable.  Wish him a merry christmas back if you'd like, but don't be snotty about it.  It sort of undermines the entire thing.


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## Steve (Dec 10, 2009)

I just want to add that I do apologize for getting into this so much, but every year it's the same "war on Christmas" stuff.  Come on, people.  Walk the talk, for Pete's sake.


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 10, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> I appreciate your points, Crippler, but I'm not sure I can completely agree. The sentiment you speak of, the idea of giving, the themes of rebirth and celebration, predate christianity by a long shot.


 
That's not in debate. I never claimed those ideals were exclusive. You miss the point good sir. 



stevebjj said:


> The term Yule itself is a holdover from the pagan holiday celebrating the birth of the pagan Sun God being born. Holly and mistletoe were references to fertility, if I remember correctly.
> 
> Santa Claus is a mishmash of pagan folk characters. One of my favorite stories is a beltain story about the Holly King and the Oak King. The Holly King is just one of many interesting sources.
> 
> But getting back to the point, Christmas was an invention of the Pope... Julius I think, but that might not be right. Anyway, the point is that Jesus was very likely not even born in December. The date was chosen as a way to make conversion of the pagan Romans just a little easier. The incorporation of so many of the pagan traditions (including many of the things that you guys insist are "Christian" lessons such as giving, charity, celebration, family and good will) was to keep people happy as they converted to christianity.


 
You're focusing on peripheral matters and missing the meaning. 



> Once again, I'm only going into all of this simply to demonstrate that this is NOT a christian gig, regardless of what you call it. Like Kwanzaa, someone invented it. A person. A guy with an agenda. Imbue these times with whatever religious or spiritual significance you'd like, but don't begrudge others the same.
> 
> And if someone opts to say, "Happy Holidays" in an effort to be inclusive, be charitable. Wish him a merry christmas back if you'd like, but don't be snotty about it. It sort of undermines the entire thing.


 
Say Babba-dabba-whoo-whiny-hoo if you want as long as you don't lose the meaning. 

In our society it is a Christain gig. I'm not making that up. LOL 

The "holiday" itself has been adpoted by many cultures over the centuries but that's not the point. Step out of the weeds and up to the balcony. 



stevebjj said:


> I just want to add that I do apologize for getting into this so much, but every year it's the same "war on Christmas" stuff. Come on, people. Walk the talk, for Pete's sake.


 
I think we're pretty close to being on the same page. 

I know I'm sick of the whole mess too, and it only serves to distract from the importance of the message which serves no one; regardless of religeous beliefs.


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 10, 2009)

....obviously I prefer "Merry Ho-Ho." LOL


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## Steve (Dec 10, 2009)

Okay.  I think we're on the same page.


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## Archangel M (Dec 10, 2009)

[yt]DKk9rv2hUfA[/yt]

If you want to celebrate "Yule" then celebrate Yule.

If you want to celebrate "unbridled consumerism" than go get your credit card.

If you celebrate CHRISTmas than listen to the above...


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## Archangel M (Dec 10, 2009)

Ps: Merry Christmas!


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## Steve (Dec 10, 2009)

Hiw about if I just have a happy holiday and hope you have one too.


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 10, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Hiw about if I just have a happy holiday and hope you have one too.


 
That would be great! 

I hope everyone has a happy holiday, regardless of what they celebrate or believe, and are reminded that _giving _is an honorable trait and should be continued throughout the year.


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## Flea (Dec 12, 2009)

While I've never actually seen anyone pitch a fit over someone saying "merry Christmas," I did find this gem:



> An elementary school in southeast Hamilton County removed a mention of Allah in its holiday show after it drew the anger of a national conservative Christian group.  Lantern Road Elementary Principal Danielle Thompson said school leaders sought to teach inclusiveness through the second-grade program, which included pieces about Christmas, Hanukkah, Ramadan, Las Posadas and Kwanzaa.
> 
> Laura Mollo, 26, Peru, called *several times* over concerns about children saying, Allah is God, *though she has no connection to the school.* She said that as a Christian, she had to protest ...


Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but as long as we're having the conversation I felt the point was worth making.


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## Archangel M (Dec 12, 2009)

To My Democratic Friends:

Please accept    with no obligation, implied or implicit, my
best wishes for an    environmentally conscious, socially responsible,
low-stress, non-addictive,    gender-neutral celebration of the winter
solstice holiday, practiced    within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious
persuasion of your    choice, or secular practices of your choice, with
respect for the    religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others,    or
their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all.    I also
wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and    medically
uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally    accepted calendar year 2010,
but not without due respect for the    calendars of choice of other cultures
whose contributions to society    have helped make America great. Not to imply
that America is necessarily    greater than any other country nor the only
America in the Western    Hemisphere . Also, this wish is made without regard to the
race, creed,    color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual
preference    of the wish.



To My Republican Friends:

Merry    Christmas and a Happy New Year in the year of our Lord    Jesus Christ 2010.


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## Flea (Dec 12, 2009)

:lol:   :bangahead:


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## Marginal (Dec 12, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> To My Republican Friends:
> 
> Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year in the year of our Lord    Jesus Christ 2010.



For a more accurate position statement...

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/


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## Steve (Dec 13, 2009)

Because all Republicans are christians and all democrats are heathens. I love the internet. Truthiness at its best.


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 13, 2009)

... I give up. The human race is doomed.


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## Steve (Dec 13, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> ... I give up. The human race is doomed.


LOL... it'll be okay.  The look on the kids' faces Christmas morning makes it all worthwhile.  that and the rum in the egg nog.


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## crushing (Dec 14, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> LOL... it'll be okay. The look on the kids' faces Christmas morning makes it all worthwhile. that and the rum in the egg nog.


 
Wait, I thought the egg nog went in the rum.


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## CoryKS (Dec 14, 2009)

crushing said:


> Wait, I thought the egg nog went in the rum.


 
... but the lime still goes in the coconut, right?


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## Brother John (Dec 14, 2009)

crushing said:


> Happy Chrismahanukwanzakah!
> 
> And, may you enjoy the solstice full tilt.



_Gesundheit!_

Yor Yule-tide bro
John


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## shesulsa (Dec 14, 2009)

Marginal said:


> Nonsense like this is why I say, "have a nice day." I don't really like knowing who has a flimsy grasp on their own faith. It's as if pool ol' Jesus will vanish on 'em if they're not braying about Christmas constantly. (Doubly funny since the whole anti PC guff just amounts to people with a different agenda trying to impose their own collection of PC rules about what can and can't be spoken of.)



Then again ... you do understand, don't you, that Jesus instructed his followers to "not hide their faith under a bushel" and to "spread the good news" and be "fishers of men."  Not to be flippant but how do you fish if you won't even go to the lake?

That said, there are the natural unfortunate consequences of the popularity of Christianity. Much like heterosexuality, it is - by nature of  prevalence - 'rammed down everyone else's throats.'

Of course, also by nature of prevalence - two major Christian holidays have been commercially bastardized with altered tales, mismatching times on the roman calendar, merchandising, etcetera.

And as we Christians incorporate the real reasons for the seasons in with the commercial mayhem (which, it can be argued, may be important to the social and psychological development of our children up to a certain age), some of us remain aghast at those who think we have NO idea what's really going on around us, that the date we celebrate Christmas was based around a pagan holiday, that not all those who celebrate the season or even those who call themselves Christian *act* like Christians at all.

We do.  We get it.  And we try to raise our children in and around it to be better people, to place the proper importance on the holiday.  And in the meantime, we *are* putting up lights. We *are* putting up a tree.  We *are* buying and making a few presents for those we love and writing wishes of happiness and goodness and love for everyone we know - just a reminder that we think about them all year long.

I'm sure if Hanukkah, Ramadan or Kwanzaa were to achieve this level of retail attention,  I'd rather enjoy others celebrating their special seasons. I don't think my panties are that knotty.

So ... in an effort to keep my cheer, I'm going to bow out of this thread for now - I have some baking and decorating to do.

Merry Christmas!

...now back to Whoville ...


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## Brother John (Dec 14, 2009)

> I'm sure if Hanukkah, Ramadan or Kwanzaa were to achieve this level of retail attention, I'd rather enjoy others celebrating their special seasons. I don't think my panties are that knotty.


It'd be cool!

Hanukkah is COOL!! I remember the first time my friend Nathan had me over to his house for their Hanukkah celebrations!! I loved it. The story behind it and the way that everything had a meaning and a purpose and it all was a celebration of "Dedication"! I Loved it. (I've also always liked the use of candles in a ceremony) Nathan's father asked me my "Christian Perspective" on it all. I told him that it fascinated me to know that Jesus himself celebrated Hanukkah, but wondered what it was like for him to be able to actually GO to the rededicated Temple and celebrate there. 

Ramadan? I know woefully little about it. But what I do know: isolating yourself all day to fast and pray amongst your family, then joyfully feasting at night all together!!! I think it sounds great!

Kwanzaa? I know even less about it. 

BUT: I love meaningful symbolism and I also love celebrating something with deep / profound meaning!  SO....I agree with Shesulsa!  

Your Brother (who's dreidel has a wicked lean toward 'nun')
John


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## CanuckMA (Dec 14, 2009)

That was well written Shesulsa. I prefer 'Happy Holidays', but overall I don't care. 

I like Xmas lights. It's a crappy time of the year. It's cold and dark. The lights at least are cheery.


The things that bug me are

The prolonged season, but then again, I hate all those commercial for any holiday that start months in advance. 

People that quiz little kids about what they are getting for Xmas. I know they mean well, but I'm the one left with the 6 year old who's wondering what he's missing on. Wish me Merry Xmas, that's easy to deal with, but please be sensitive to the kids.

Trying to rename the tree a Holiday tree. It's a Xmas tree. Leave me out of this. If it wasn't for Xmas, they'd be no tree. I don't need a tree for Chanukkah.


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## Steve (Dec 14, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Then again ... you do understand, don't you, that Jesus instructed his followers to "not hide their faith under a bushel" and to "spread the good news" and be "fishers of men." Not to be flippant but how do you fish if you won't even go to the lake?
> 
> That said, there are the natural unfortunate consequences of the popularity of Christianity. Much like heterosexuality, it is - by nature of prevalence - 'rammed down everyone else's throats.'
> 
> ...


You mean you manage to celebrate the season in moderation according to your own beliefs while at the same time acknowledging others?  I...  how is that possible?   Archangel?  I'm confused! 

Seriously, though, what you say makes perfect sense.  And it's exactly this attitude and approach I try to take as well.  I'm not a christian and as I said, my observance is strictly of the secular Christmas with Santa, elves, reindeer, mistletoe and ample amounts of rum in my egg nog!   But I manage to respect my neighbors religious observances and have no issues with how anyone chooses to celebrate... even the Griswalds down the street from me with their larger than life size nativity scene (the only nativity scene in my neighborhood).  It's...  impressive.


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## Marginal (Dec 14, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Then again ... you do understand, don't you, that Jesus instructed his followers to "not hide their faith under a bushel" and to "spread the good news" and be "fishers of men."  Not to be flippant but how do you fish if you won't even go to the lake?



I tend to think this is more a case of:

 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."

Throwing out a snarky, "Happy Holy days!" doesn't strike me as being a fisher of man. You do that by being a decent human being.


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## aedrasteia (Dec 14, 2009)

Canuck

"People that quiz little kids about what they are getting for Xmas. I know they mean well, but I'm the one left with the 6 year old who's wondering what he's missing on. Wish me Merry Xmas, that's easy to deal with, but please be sensitive to the kids."

Yep - right on target - the folks who assume everybody is whatever they are... a warmer way around it is to ask 'what holidays are celebrated at your house?' and let kids (and adults) tell you what they love to do. And when it comes up I usually ask: what are you giving this year? Gradually, over time, its happened for me - the turn of the heart and the pleasure of seeing someone who loves the gift I've found - even if small, which it usually is, that is right in their zone. thats christmas for me.

And at my house the food is the center - lots of swedish and german goodies. Every year i bake about 25-30 loaves of julbrod and send/mail to friends. And this year I made vort limpa (swedish rye with beer, orange peel, anise...) ... sandbakel cookies, ginger snaps, cardamom buns, finskabrod and tell jokes about the Norwegians and lutefisk!!!

My godchild is from a mixed faith home that celebrates both. So we get to have latkes!!! and Christmas goodies too. He gets the deeper messages and will have his bar Mitzvah next year and one day will find his spiritual home of his own.
A


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## CanuckMA (Dec 14, 2009)

aedrasteia said:


> Canuck
> 
> Yep - right on target - the folks who assume everybody is whatever they are...


 
And I'm visibly Jewish. Kippa and all. They still asked.


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## Steve (Dec 14, 2009)

aedrasteia said:


> Canuck
> 
> "People that quiz little kids about what they are getting for Xmas. I know they mean well, but I'm the one left with the 6 year old who's wondering what he's missing on. Wish me Merry Xmas, that's easy to deal with, but please be sensitive to the kids."
> 
> ...


As a kid, my dad's side of the family would require the eating of lutefisk for new years good luck and my mom's side would require the eating of black eyed peas for good luck.  I hate both! 

Sounds like good times.  My 12 year old daughter baked like crazy this year.  While I do a lot of cooking, I don't bake well at all (too much measuring and such for me!) but my daughter loves it.  I have a collection of cookbooks, several from the 40's, 50's and 60's.  My daughter found 5 or 6 recipes she liked and went to town sending treats to the entire family (and my wife's boss in Minnesota, too.)   Pumpkin loaf, several different kinds of cookies and some other sweet treats.  She baked them, packed them up and shipped them out all on her own.  I couldn't be prouder of her for her creativity and her initiative.  

As a side note, a good friend is a jehovah's witness, and I've seen him try to graciously divert the conversation when someone asks him or his kids what they're asking Santa for.  \


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## CanuckMA (Dec 14, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> As a side note, a good friend is a jehovah's witness, and I've seen him try to graciously divert the conversation when someone asks him or his kids what they're asking Santa for. \


 
I was relaay proud of my youngest one time. He was about 8ish, never really been shy, and he answered one clerk with "my dad's too cheap to buy Xmas presents". The look on the lady's face was priceless.


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## Steve (Dec 14, 2009)

CanuckMA said:


> I was relaay proud of my youngest one time. He was about 8ish, never really been shy, and he answered one clerk with "my dad's too cheap to buy Xmas presents". The look on the lady's face was priceless.


Awesome.


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## Big Don (Dec 14, 2009)

Any American who has a problem with mention of Christmas should contact their congressperson, Christmas is a federal holiday.I ind it interesting that anyone who opposed making Martin Luther King Jr's birthday a federal holiday were automatically racist, but, those who oppose Christmas are not anti-Christian and referring to them as so is insulting.


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## CanuckMA (Dec 14, 2009)

But it's annoying, it wears you down. Not so much the Merry Xmas, a week or so before. It's the decorations and music starting 4-6 weeks before. I have enough Xtian friends who are tired of that as well.


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## Brother John (Dec 14, 2009)

CanuckMA said:


> I was relaay proud of my youngest one time. He was about 8ish, never really been shy, and he answered one clerk with "my dad's too cheap to buy Xmas presents". The look on the lady's face was priceless.


OK.... THAT was Funny!

thanks


Your Brother
John


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 14, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> And as we Christians incorporate the real reasons for the seasons in with the commercial mayhem (which, it can be argued, may be important to the social and psychological development of our children up to a certain age), some of us remain aghast at those who think we have NO idea what's really going on around us, that the date we celebrate Christmas was based around a pagan holiday, that not all those who celebrate the season or even those who call themselves Christian *act* like Christians at all.



Reading Shelusa's post, as well as others, I'm slowly beginning to recognize other concerns arising from this thread. When I read the poem in the original post, what I took away was so-called PC-driven 'war on Christmas,' which I dismissed out of hand. After all phrases like "Happy Holidays" and "Seasons Greetings" have been around a long time -- they predate any reference to PC by many, many years. There's the old Irving Berlin song...



> "Happy Holiday" (sometimes performed as "Happy Holidays") is a popular song composed by Irving Berlin in 1942.
> The song was first performed by Bing Crosby in the 1942 film _Holiday Inn_. In the context of the film, the song refers to holidays in general; however, it has come to be associated most commonly with the Christmas season (presumably due to its context).



What I was missing out on was the absence of Christ (or Christianity) from Christmas, reflected in the way the holiday is abused through marketing, advertising, bad behaviour, etc. This is a concern broadly held by people who practise Christianity to varying degrees.

I think the problem I have with the poem is that it makes (in my mind) a faulty connection between tacky Christmas, exploitative Christmas, and PC Christmas. My point is simply that Christmas was been exploited and tacky long before anyone consciously decided to say, "Happy Holidays" when they really meant, "Merry Christmas."


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 14, 2009)

Yup...

It's important... as with many things...  not to get distracted by the garbage but to keep focus on the the essence...

It doesn't matter what religion you subscribe to or even if you're a Christian or not...

What matters is the ethic of "giving" and the advantages of doing so. 

Christmas is a great reminder of the importance of selflessness... of giving of oneself... of sacrificing for another .... that's what we should remember and take away from the holiday. 

Nothing else matters, really. 

It doesn't matter if I give to a Jew, or a Muslim.... what matters is that I *GIVE. *

When we give... it's going to come back to you. But that shouldn't be your motivation.... you should do it because it's right.


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## Flea (Dec 14, 2009)

Not in a spirit of taking one side or the other in this conversation, but here's a longer perspective from the History Channel:

[yt]A5T5ibb2E9I&feature[/yt]

It's a fantastic documentary, and I'd encourage anyone to watch the whole thing.


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## Steve (Dec 14, 2009)

Big Don said:


> Any American who has a problem with mention of Christmas should contact their congressperson, Christmas is a federal holiday.I ind it interesting that anyone who opposed making Martin Luther King Jr's birthday a federal holiday were automatically racist, but, those who oppose Christmas are not anti-Christian and referring to them as so is insulting.


I'm not at all surprised that you have it completely wrong, but as usual, you say it with authority and in as offensive a manner as possible.   How you can twist every situation such that you are the victim astounds me.  

Few people, if any, have a problem with the mention of christmas.  Some christians (I'd like to think that it's a minority) have a problem with people saying, "Happy Holidays."  If it sounds pretty ridiculous, I agree, but that's the War on Christmas for you.


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## Archangel M (Dec 14, 2009)

No..it's not "being offended with people saying Happy Holidays"...It's about the PC police/corporate/media/gvt entities who intentionally use "Happy Holidays" out of fear of "offending" anybody or who are bowing to pressures of vocal minority groups with an axe to grind against Christians (but seldom have issues with any other faith).

Same thing with the little "democrat/rep" joke. It's not about Democrats "being heathen" and I think that everybody knows it...it's about the silly semantic games people use.


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## Steve (Dec 14, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> No..it's not "being offended with people saying Happy Holidays"...It's about the PC police/corporate/media/gvt entities who intentionally use "Happy Holidays" out of fear of "offending" anybody or who are bowing to pressures of vocal minority groups with an axe to grind against Christians (but seldom have issues with any other faith).
> 
> Same thing with the little "democrat/rep" joke. It's not about Democrats "being heathen" and I think that everybody knows it...it's about the silly semantic games people use.



If you guys don't like the silly semantics games then why do you play them?   For most, whether someone says happy holidays or merry Christmas is a complete nonissue. But for a few people, it's a problem.  The irony is that you're the very essence of PC.  You're inventing offense out of thin air.  Just stop and the war on Christmas becomes a bad memory of hyper sensitivity on the part of a select few christian conservatives. Stop being so PC and we can go back to enjoying the season without worrying about offending you with our unPC grettings of good tidings and a happy holiday.


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## Big Don (Dec 15, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Few people, if any, have a problem with the mention of christmas.


Really, and that is why so many school districts have Christmas break and Easter break?
http://www.fresno.k12.ca.us/tradcalendar0910.html
So, if starting next year we started calling Memorial Day something like First holiday of summer, that wouldn't be offensive? Or, maybe we could call Martin Luther King Jr day "some guy who died day" not offensive? It is interesting to me that in your little world Christians are never allowed to be offended, only offensive?


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## Archangel M (Dec 15, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_controversy


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## Flea (Dec 15, 2009)

:deadhorse


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## Steve (Dec 15, 2009)

Big Don said:


> Really, and that is why so many school districts have Christmas break and Easter break?
> http://www.fresno.k12.ca.us/tradcalendar0910.html
> So, if starting next year we started calling Memorial Day something like First holiday of summer, that wouldn't be offensive? Or, maybe we could call Martin Luther King Jr day "some guy who died day" not offensive? It is interesting to me that in your little world Christians are never allowed to be offended, only offensive?


Oh for Pete's sake. Christmas is only one day. If the kids only got Christmas off, the calendar would likely say Christmas. But it's not just the day. It is, for most kids in the country, a two or three week break from school that encompasses both Christmas and New Years day... both Federal Holidays. Are you suggesting that we expand Christmas so that it's two weeks long? Would you be so completely butthurt if it were called New Year's Break?

If you look at every other Federal holiday on the calendar that you posted, where it involves an extended period of time off from school it's called a "break" that corresponds with the season. Spring Break is a term that has been around for a long time. 

Regarding Christians being offended, I've never said any such thing. Once again, you're trying to paint yourself as a member of a victimized demographic. Quick aside, every time you do that, I picture Steve Martin in the Jerk saying, "It was never easy for me. I was born a poor black child." 

In this particular case, I'm not even attributing the ridiculous "war on Christmas" on Christians at all. Rather, I understand that it's a very small but vocal subset of Christians who also meet the following criteria: are conservative, watch Bill O'Reilly, think he makes sense, are easily offended and are filled with generalized, righteous indignation looking for an outlet. Since the census doesn't track this particular category, I can only hope that it's a small group. This entire war on Christmas is politically correct clap trap promulgated by Bill O Reilly.

As for Christmas, it's mentioned prominantly at my kids' school, along with all of the other religions. I think that's a pretty good approach.


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## shesulsa (Dec 15, 2009)

Forgive us, Oh Lord, for we know not what we say.

:deadhorse   Indeed.


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## Steve (Dec 15, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Forgive us, Oh Lord, for we know not what we say.
> 
> :deadhorse Indeed.


I know I shouldn't respond.  It's a character flaw, but sometimes I just can't let something go.  I'm much more laid back than I was 10 years ago.  Maybe in another 10 years I'll have the wisdom and the willpower to ignore all the bait.


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## Flea (Dec 15, 2009)

For what it's worth, this is another illustration of why I reject the holiday wholesale.  Just like it's been perverted into a capitalist glut, it's also been perverted into a useless soap box to squabble over ... what exactly?  If Christmas really is too sacred to dilute with other events, why not respect the _family values_ of a peaceable day spent at home with loved ones?  It's all very hypocritical.

Steve, I sympathize with bait-taking.  Everyone in the world has a vulnerable spot for something.  Don't blame yourself.  Just have another eggnog, you'll feel better.


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## Carol (Dec 15, 2009)

Big Don said:


> Any American who has a problem with mention of Christmas should contact their congressperson, Christmas is a federal holiday.I ind it interesting that anyone who opposed making Martin Luther King Jr's birthday a federal holiday were automatically racist, but, those who oppose Christmas are not anti-Christian and referring to them as so is insulting.



Ehhhh....a "federal holiday" is often given more significance than it truly has, usually out of confusion.  

A "federal holiday" is a holiday for employees of the U.S. Federal Government.  That is all.  Unless a person works for the Feds, what a "federal holiday" is, or isn't, has no bearing on their employment.

Can we go back to talking about Lutefisk?  MMmmmmm


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## Brother John (Dec 15, 2009)

For me, my wife and our 2 young children... we strive to keep our celebration of Christ and family at the center of our Christmas season      NO MATTER what commercials and whatnot goes on in our society around us.  The "Capitalist glut" doesn't make it past my doorstep.


Your Brother
John


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