# Differences in LT WT?



## wckf92 (Jul 1, 2018)

Hey all.
I was wondering if anyone here can elaborate on whether or not there are differences between the Leung Ting Wing Tsun taught in China vs the US? From what little I know, there appears to be differences but I'm hoping someone here can explain a bit further and perhaps provide an example or two? 
Thanks in advance for any discussion!


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## KPM (Jul 1, 2018)

I don't practice WT.  But from what I've read, the European version has a different Lat Sau program than the HK version.  Bino or Geezer would be the man to answer this one!


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## yak sao (Jul 1, 2018)

The US WT follows the paradigm of the EWTO for the most part, or at least it did.

The original LT WT in Hong Kong had 10 levels:
Levels 1-4 were technician, levels 5-8 were practitioners and levels 9 and 10 were reserved for Grandmaster.
When Leung Ting and his student Allan Fong started going to Germany to teach Keith Kernspecht around 1976, this was the beginnings of the EWTO.

Kernspecht felt the 3-5 years of training to reach the first technician level was too long to achieve any form of rank so he developed 12 student grades that led up to the first technician level, based on the Western school system.
From there, the instructor grades remained the same.

He developed lat sao programs  for each of the student levels, which, interesting bit of trivia, he got this idea from his training he had with Jesse Glover, first student of Bruce Lee.

Apparently, KK and LT were already startling to butt heads in the late 70's so KK reached out to Glover and he did a number of seminars in Germany during the late 70's early 80's.

Eventually KK and LT reconciled, but KK held onto his lat sao programs he developed, which LT hated.


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## wckf92 (Jul 1, 2018)

yak sao said:


> The US WT follows the paradigm of the EWTO for the most part, or at least it did.
> 
> The original LT WT in Hong Kong had 10 levels:
> Levels 1-4 were technician, levels 5-8 were practitioners and levels 9 and 10 were reserved for Grandmaster.
> ...



Interesting. Thx Yak! 
So, if I understand you correctly...the lat sau program is the difference (or one of the differences?). 
LT = China = 10 levels...?
KK/EWTO - Europe = 12 levels + Lat sau?


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## yak sao (Jul 1, 2018)

To clarify, the EWTO has the 12 student levels plus the 10 instructor levels.
As you would expect, there are many nuances between the two, but yeah, as far as how it's taught and trained, I would say the German lat sao vs the "Hong Kong" lat sao is the big difference.


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## KPM (Jul 1, 2018)

yak sao said:


> He developed lat sao programs  for each of the student levels, which, interesting bit of trivia, he got this idea from his training he had with Jesse Glover, first student of Bruce Lee.
> 
> Apparently, KK and LT were already startling to butt heads in the late 70's so KK reached out to Glover and he did a number of seminars in Germany during the late 70's early 80's.
> 
> Eventually KK and LT reconciled, but KK held onto his lat sao programs he developed, which LT hated.



I've been told that there was also an FMA influence on some of those Lat Sao techniques.  I know that one of them is almost exactly the "Elbow Hubud" drill from FMA!


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## wckf92 (Jul 1, 2018)

yak sao said:


> I would say the German lat sao vs the "Hong Kong" lat sao is the big difference.



Thanks for clarifying.
So, in your opinion (not sure which "version" you were/are trained in)...is the Hong Kong version more "traditional" and in line with "normal Yip Man WC"? 

From what I've seen of the KK stuff on Youtube...he seems to have 'loose' WC/T...hands that seem to be very unconstrained. Sorry if that comes across wrong but I just don't how else to describe it. 

So is "Hong Kong" version considered IWTA?


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## yak sao (Jul 1, 2018)

I get what you're saying about KK....very formless.
Who knows, maybe that's the goal....be like water?
As for me, I'm a hybrid.
My first 10 years of WT were under Emin
Boztepe, so while it was AWTO, it was basically  EWTO curriculum, or at least his take on it.
During those first 10 years  I also trained extensively with an old Richard Guerra student, so it was basically more along the lines of HK (IWTA) influence.
The past 13 years or so have been under Allan Fong, so it is HK version.

While the Germans did much for the advancement and refinement of WT, I think I prefer the HK way....it just seems more organic and  more old school.
The  Germans took a streamlined method and in my opinion, over complicated it.


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## yak sao (Jul 1, 2018)

KPM said:


> I've been told that there was also an FMA influence on some of those Lat Sao techniques.  I know that one of them is almost exactly the "Elbow Hubud" drill from FMA!



Interesting. Latosa Escrima was always taught alongside the WT, so very possible.


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## Bino TWT (Jul 10, 2018)

There are two sides to the LTWT lineage. The EWTO (European) side, and the IWTA (Hong Kong) side. I've done both (Started EWTO, now HK). The training curriculum is different, the end result is pretty much the same. The grading system is exactly the same (any grades above 5th Practitioner are really only organizational, as this is the Master level when the system has been completed.). Different paths up the same mountain.


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> I was wondering if anyone here can elaborate on whether or not there are differences between the Leung Ting Wing Tsun taught in China vs the US?



Yak Sau and Bino have pretty much covered the topic. But here's _my _fuzzy recollection, to be taken with a grain of salt:

When I was with LT starting back in 1980 here in the US, there were 12 student grades and _potentially _12 instructor grades, although at that time Leung Ting only held the title of _Grandmaster_ and the highest organizational rank of _10th Level Master of Comprehension  ._

Since then, having sold, ...er _promoted _Keith Kernspecht the rank of _10th Level_ and title of _Grandmaster, _Leung Ting assumed the higher rank of _11th Level Master of Almightyness. _That was quite a few years ago. I do not believe LT has moved up again however, since the 12th Level was originally supposed to be a _posthumous honor!_
 I guess he'll have to be content with being _almighty_ for a while. 

Now both these guys are_ really_ accomplished WC guys, miles out of my league, as are their senior students. I totally respect their skill, just can't help myself poking fun at those over-the-top-titles. I'm the type of guy that even has trouble with the term_ sifu_, and feels more comfortable just being called "coach". 

As far as the curriculum goes, LT had a simpler curriculum with form, drills, and chi-sau work for each level, moving into a number of choreographed chi-sau "sections" starting at the advanced intermediate level and continuing through the instructor levels. The first four instructor ranks (similar to Japanese "dan" ranks) were termed_ Technician_ ranks, while level five and above were called the _Practician _(master-level) ranks. To reach a level 5 rank would typically take at least 12-15 years of training, a lot of money for private lessons, and honestly, a very high level of skill. But even so, it did not mean you knew the entire system. I've talked with fifth-level "masters" who still had not learned the entire Bart Cham Dao form and applications (and neither have I).

As others have stated, Keith Kernspecht expanded the curriculum and developed the Lat Sau material. The Germans brought this material to the States in the late 80's. I was first exposed to this material by Thomas Dolniski and then by Emin Boztepe. In the early 90's Emin moved to the US and, for a while, ran LT's US organization, during which time the US branches began incorporating this curriculum. Around that time I stopped training WC for personal reasons, and consequently did not learn much of that program until decades later. 

Anyway, after a few years Emin broke away to start his own EBMAS organization, and Jeff Webb of Austin took over the helm of LT's group. Jeff was originally my Si-Dai or "younger kung-fu brother" but had the unique opportunity to study with several high level German instructors, including Master Kernspecht himself, while stationed in Germany in the USAF. He developed remarkable technical skill, and when he ran LT's US organization he continued developing the Lat Sau curriculum in spite of LT's expressed dislike of these "funny movements".

Later, around fall of 2007, he also split from LT and now runs his own organization, the NVTO. I resumed my study of the martial art the same year, and because of my friendship and respect for Master Webb, began training with him at that time. And, yes, now I _do _teach a slightly modified version of the Lat Sau program and really enjoy it. And a note to KPM. I can't speak for others, but my passion for Escrima has absolutely influenced some of my Lat Sau, so yes, you will find some hubud-like sections in there!


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2018)

Oh, and Keith, you will find some Wing Chun ideas in my Escrima, too!


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## yak sao (Jul 11, 2018)

geezer said:


> Since then, having sold, ...er _promoted _Keith Kernspecht the rank of _10th Level_ and title of _Grandmaster, _Leung Ting assumed the higher rank of _11th Level Master of Almightyness. _That was quite a few years ago.



In all fairness to LT, I was told by Rene' Latosa that LT was actually awarded that level by the EWTO/ Kernspecht.

But yeah, I agree with you Steve, maybe a little less of a grandiose title would have been better...Something along the lines of "Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler" maybe ?


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## yak sao (Jul 11, 2018)

BTW, yeah, the way it was presented to me was 5th level was the completion of the empty hand part of the system. The pole was 6th level and the knives 7th.


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2018)

yak sao said:


> BTW, yeah, the way it was presented to me was 5th level was the completion of the empty hand part of the system. The pole was 6th level and the knives 7th.



Yeah, but either can be taught earlier. Many tears back I learned the pole and part of the BCD, and believe me, I'm no master!


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## wckf92 (Jul 11, 2018)

geezer said:


> Yeah, but either can be taught earlier. Many tears back I learned the pole and part of the BCD, and believe me, I'm no master!



Is the LT pole form the shorter version of the longer version? (I've heard Yip Man passed along two versions or more). Go figure. haha


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2018)

As far as the EWTO awarding that title to LT, well just think about it. ...First,I knew LT, and believe me nothing like that would ever happen without his approval. The guy is very cagey. Secondly, when it became convenient and advantageous for KK to assume the 10th Level MOC and Grandmaster titles in the EWTO, you have to also bump up LT. You don't seriously think he'd want to share his same rank with a former student of his? And thirdly, in the IWTA and EWTO no high level promotion ever came without the business angle being factored in. 

And considering all that, is it any wonder I haven't been promoted in over 30 years. ...oh, I suppose you _might _bring up the fact that I was out of WT for a long time and didn't really train hard enough when I was in it...but lets not go there!


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## yak sao (Jul 11, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Is the LT pole form the shorter version of the longer version? (I've heard Yip Man passed along two versions or more). Go figure. haha



The version I learned has around 27 moves.


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Is the LT pole form the shorter version of the longer version? (I've heard Yip Man passed along two versions or more). Go figure. haha



LT's long pole form is the shortest form in his WT system. The BCD is the longest.

Other WC/VT branches have slightly or extremely different versions of these forms depending on who you are talking about.


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## yak sao (Jul 11, 2018)

oh, I'm sure it was a mutually beneficial  business agreement and I'm sure a lot of money changed hands.


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2018)

yak sao said:


> The version I learned has around 27 moves.



Run through it four times turning to face four directions and you will have a 360 degree form with a perfect 108 movements! You can alternate leading hands too!

I actually used to do that until we changed it to 28 movements and, being OCD, I couldn't handle that it didn't add up to 108 any more!


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## yak sao (Jul 11, 2018)

geezer said:


> Run through it four times turning to face four directions and you will have a 360 degree form with a perfect 108 movements! You can alternate leading hands too!
> 
> I actually used to do that until we changed it to 28 movements and, being OCD, I couldn't handle that it didn't add up to 108 any more!



When I'm feeling spunky I practice it  that way too.


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## Bino TWT (Jul 12, 2018)

yak sao said:


> In all fairness to LT, I was told by Rene' Latosa that LT was actually awarded that level by the EWTO/ Kernspecht.
> 
> But yeah, I agree with you Steve, maybe a little less of a grandiose title would have been better...Something along the lines of "Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler" maybe ?



No, that's backwards. LT awarded KK. There's an in depth account of that on my website on the Lineage page if you'd care to read it. 



geezer said:


> As far as the EWTO awarding that title to LT,


10th level is Grandmaster. There are 3 on the planet in the LTWT. LT, KK, and Chen Cheng Fun. LT was the first, and awarded the others. Currently, they are all still 10th level. 11th level is RETIRED GM, and none of them are. 12th level is post-humus. That's why I said anything over 5th Practitioner "Master" level (yellow stripes) is purely organizational.


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## geezer (Jul 12, 2018)

Bino TWT said:


> No, that's backwards. LT awarded KK. There's an in depth account of that on my website on the Lineage page if you'd care to read it.
> 
> 
> 10th level is Grandmaster. There are 3 on the planet in the LTWT. LT, KK, and Chen Cheng Fun. LT was the first, and awarded the others. Currently, they are all still 10th level. 11th level is RETIRED GM, and none of them are. 12th level is post-humus. That's why I said anything over 5th Practitioner "Master" level (yellow stripes) is purely organizational.



Thanks for the update, Bino. Back when I was doing WT, only LT was at GM level. KK I know about. Curious thing about My si-sok Cheng Chuen Fun (whom I've never met) is that he was LT's _si-dai_ (younger kung fu brother) under Leung Sheung, and not his _to-dai_ (student). Also, several years back, I heard he left LT's organization ...but _without_ the usual hard feelings that accompany such a split. Perhaps you can clarify if this is true, and if so, does he still hold GM rank in LT's organization?

...Either way, WC politics is _soooo confusing! _


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## Bino TWT (Jul 12, 2018)

At one point in the heyday of the EWTO, LT awarded KK 10th GM of the EWTO branch of WT. The catch was, it was only valid in the EWTO. I think it was sometime late 90's or early 00's when he actually made it an official IWTA 10, putting him on the same level as LT. I'm sure that this was political and exuberant amounts of money exchanged hands. 

CCF was LT's Si-Dai under Leung Sheung. After LT left LS to finish his training with Yip Man and opened his own school, CCF became LT's student. He appointed CCF as the chief instructor of the IWTA in '82 (same year KK opened the castle) so he could travel the world spreading the gospel of WT. It was sometime in the early 00's (after '02, at least) that CCF was awarded 10th level. And you are correct, he did officially leave the IWTA with not one ill word about LT (actually, he never really told anyone why he left; my Si-Fu trains with him frequently and has asked him, and he won't say). He does still train and teach periodically at the IWTA headquarters, so he and LT must not be on as bad terms as most ex-WT guys. 

When I left the EWTO side of WT and went under the Hong Kong side, my Si-Gung by way of my current Si-Fu is Tam Yiu Ming, who was a student of both CCF & LT, and Si-Hing of Chris Collins. Tam was the technical adviser of the IWTA and handled the gradings. When Tam moved to London, LT pressured him to join the EWTO and fall under KK, and Tam refused, wanting nothing to do with the EWTO organization (can you blame him?), and ended up leaving the IWTA because of this. Like CCF, Tam still often trains with LT and teaches and the IWTA HQ, but they are not officially affiliated with the organization in any way. 

CCF still holds 10th level I suppose; once you've been graded and ranked, it's yours, and now CCF if Si-Jo of his own lineage of WT. Being that CCF still occasionally teaches at the IWTA HQ, I suppose his rank is still honored. 

That's why LT is referred to GGM, to make sure everyone understands he's the top of the food chain, since there are 2 other people that hold equal 10th level ranking.

Check the Lineage page on my website bro, there's a lot of cool WT stuff on there.


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## geezer (Jul 12, 2018)

Bino, is your Si-gung, Tam Yiu Ming any relation to old Tam Hung Fun (probably deceased by now) who used to be LT's top guy in Austrailia in the early days? That old guy looked really tough! Although, according to LT, the problem with old Tam was that, like many Chinese of his generation, he preferred to teach Chinese students, limiting the growth of his program.


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## Bino TWT (Jul 12, 2018)

I'm not sure if there is any relation, I'll ask him though. 

Yeah LT learned early on that non Chinese peoples money spends just the same lol


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