# New to owning a school



## ShinKen (Dec 6, 2006)

[FONT=&quot]First of all, hello to everyone. I have been reading martial talk for a while now getting some great info, but now I have a question that may have been asked, but I can't find it anywhere.

I am still in the planning phase, but I want to open and own my own school. I have been running a very successful school for almost 10 years now and I want to move up. Here is the problem:

My current school is technically a franchise. We have over 20 schools owned by different people, but they share the name. We are our own organization that certifies our black belts and our instructors. If I wanted to open a school with this same name, I would need an insane amount of money that cannot be loaned, but if I open my own school, I feel it might be kicking my instructor in the face. Also, if I did my own thing, my rank gets revoked. I know he can never take my knowledge, but I would have nothing to put on the wall to prove I am a 4th dan, and as you other instructors know, our students need to see that.

The next problem is the fact that I don't know how I can get promoted beyond 4th. I do currently train in another art, but I have only been doing it for a year. I am a member of the American Kenpo Karate Association, and they said they will recognize me as a 4th dan in American Karate, but they can't promote me beyond that.

I guess the question is, should I just bail on my dream since getting into the franchise I work for is not possible, or should I do my own thing? And if I do, is there an organization I can join that would recognize my rank, and can someday promote me beyond 4th? 

Sorry this got so long, but I am desperate for help. Any help would be great.[/FONT]


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## Kacey (Dec 6, 2006)

ShinKen said:


> [FONT=&quot]First of all, hello to everyone. I have been reading martial talk for a while now getting some great info, but now I have a question that may have been asked, but I can't find it anywhere.[/FONT]



First, welcome, and happy posting.  
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ShinKen said:


> [FONT=&quot] I am still in the planning phase, but I want to open and own my own school. I have been running a very successful school for almost 10 years now and I want to move up. Here is the problem:[/FONT]



It does sound like you've got quite a problem here.
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ShinKen said:


> [FONT=&quot] My current school is technically a franchise. We have over 20 schools owned by different people, but they share the name. We are our own organization that certifies our black belts and our instructors. If I wanted to open a school with this same name, I would need an insane amount of money that cannot be loaned, [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] 
I can understand wanting to stay within your organization, and I understand why there is a franchise fee (although I disagree with it... but I'm a club owner, not a school owner); however, I don't understand why you have to pay "an insane amount of money that cannot be loaned".  Are you saying that your organization wants a truly excessive quantity of money that you must have in hand?  Why can it not be borrowed, if you're willing to go into debt to do it?

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ShinKen said:


> [FONT=&quot]but if I open my own school, I feel it might be kicking my instructor in the face. [/FONT]



This part I understand - when I started my own independent class (as opposed to the kids' class I had been teaching as an extension of the class I started in) the first thing I did was get my instructor's approval, and I wouldn't have done it any other way.[FONT=&quot]
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ShinKen said:


> [FONT=&quot]Also, if I did my own thing, my rank gets revoked. I know he can never take my knowledge, but I would have nothing to put on the wall to prove I am a 4th dan, and as you other instructors know, our students need to see that.[/FONT]



See, now, this I have a problem with - not that you want a certificate to prove to your students that you have the knowledge, but that your organization would be so petty as to revoke your rank (on paper; as you said, your knowledge is yours forever) if you leave because you want to instruct and can't afford their franchise fee.  It seems to me like this is not in the best interest of the organization - the organization should _want_ people to start new franchises to increase the size, influence, and income of the organization - not shoot themselves in the foot this way.  Not knowing what inquiries you've already made, or why the money cannot be borrowed, I'm not sure what to tell you, except to suggest that you talk to the organization (if you haven't already) to find out why they set these rules up the way they do, and, if you want to stay in this organization, how you can work within their rules to reach your own goals.  It makes no sense to me that it is this hard financially to start a school that, ultimately, will benefit the organization.
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ShinKen said:


> [FONT=&quot] The next problem is the fact that I don't know how I can get promoted beyond 4th. I do currently train in another art, but I have only been doing it for a year. I am a member of the American Kenpo Karate Association, and they said they will recognize me as a 4th dan in American Karate, but they can't promote me beyond that.[/FONT]



Since I'm in TKD, not Karate, I don't know enough about Karate organizations to respond to this one - although I'm sure someone else on MT should know.
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ShinKen said:


> [FONT=&quot] I guess the question is, should I just bail on my dream since getting into the franchise I work for is not possible, or should I do my own thing? And if I do, is there an organization I can join that would recognize my rank, and can someday promote me beyond 4th? [/FONT]



Again, I know very little about Karate organizations, but I find this situation unconscionable.
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ShinKen said:


> [FONT=&quot] Sorry this got so long, but I am desperate for help. Any help would be great.[/FONT]



Sorry I can't be more help - hopefully, someone else will have some more specific ideas for you.


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## ShinKen (Dec 6, 2006)

[FONT=&quot]The franchise fee is about 30k, which I am told is high, but not unexpected of a company this size.  It is the rest of the money that it takes to get a school open.  We have build out, equipment, and the first few months rent to pay since the school will not make money right away.  That is the money that can't be borrowed.  I know how much it will cost to get the doors open, but to accually save that in cash....?  They say it is because there are a lot of bills with owning a school, a loan is just another bill.  Makes sense, I guess, but it is still impossible.  The organization has never closed a school and they don't want someone being the first.  You have to prove you have the money to keep it open.  I think it is a way of saying "the money is more important than the skill", but what do I know.

After I made the first post I was reading more posts throughout the forum.  I was thinking back to the training when I was a student, and looking at what we have to teach today.  A lot of people talk about the McDojo complex of simplifying the system to keep people longer.  I always knew it was different than when I was a student, but I never saw it this way.  I am wondering if I want to be a part of this organization at all.  Which brings me to my problem before, then I belong to no organization and I have no way to be promoted. 

Aside from any help anyone can give me, has anyone else been a student in a school for many many years, only to find out that it is about telling the student it is good enough, and not caring if it is actually right or not?  I have been teaching and running a school for a looooong time, so I understand that different people move in different ways, but there is a difference between looking like you did it right, and doing it right.  There is a difference between looking like you hit that pad hard, and actually hitting it hard.  Or am I wrong?[/FONT]


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 6, 2006)

I would just explain that you were promoted to 4th and show the certificate to your students, but also explain your  financial situation and subsequent independence caused them to revoke your rank. The new students will not be a part of the old organization; so, your being recognized as a member wouldn't really concern them unless someone from that organization convinced them otherwise.
Sean


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## ShinKen (Dec 6, 2006)

The bigger problem is the fact that I can not be promoted.  I like to encourage students to always work hard to attain higher ranks.  That way they are always training, and trying to get better.  But how can I tell them to do it if I can't do it?


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## Flying Crane (Dec 6, 2006)

[FONT=&quot]*My current school is technically a franchise. We have over 20 schools owned by different people, but they share the name. We are our own organization that certifies our black belts and our instructors. If I wanted to open a school with this same name, I would need an insane amount of money that cannot be loaned, but if I open my own school, I feel it might be kicking my instructor in the face. Also, if I did my own thing, my rank gets revoked. I know he can never take my knowledge, but I would have nothing to put on the wall to prove I am a 4th dan, and as you other instructors know, our students need to see that.*[/FONT]


Personally, I don't believe rank can ever be truly revoked.  You can be removed from the organization, no longer a memeber in good standing, but the rank that was given stays, in my opinion.  You have a cert showing you reached that level.  Just be honest with your students.  Tell them that you trained under this instructor, reached this rank, here is your cert to prove it, but you have since gone your own way and are no longer a part of their organization.  As such, the material you teach will be similar to what they teach, but be honest in that you are simply no longer part of their organization, and don't do or say anything that would imply to a student that you are still part of the organization.

[FONT=&quot]*The next problem is the fact that I don't know how I can get promoted beyond 4th. I do currently train in another art, but I have only been doing it for a year. I am a member of the American Kenpo Karate Association, and they said they will recognize me as a 4th dan in American Karate, but they can't promote me beyond that.*[/FONT]

My god man, what's wrong with 4th?  personally, I think there is an insane scramble for all kinds of rank, esp. in the kenpo world.  I think there is a crazy entitlement mentality about it, and everyone thinks they always need more.  Once upon a time, 4th would have gotten a whole lot of respect.  If you spent the rest of your life at this level, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  Why not fly in the face of the popular trends, and don't worry about it?  Bring some integrity back to the ranks.  Stay at 4th, and show the world just how good that can be, and don't worry about getting higher ranks.

[FONT=&quot]*I guess the question is, should I just bail on my dream since getting into the franchise I work for is not possible, or should I do my own thing? And if I do, is there an organization I can join that would recognize my rank, and can someday promote me beyond 4th?* [/FONT]

Do your own thing.  Stand on your own two feet and trust yourself.  Sounds like you have the skills and knowledge to do so.  Don't worry about recognition from others, or support from an organization.  You know what you know, do with it what you feel is right.  If you build relationships and friendships among other instructors, they will support you and in my opinion, that is far more important than belonging to a "governing body" of some kind.  Build respect, and receive respect, among your peers, because they are really the ones who matter.

[FONT=&quot]*Sorry this got so long, but I am desperate for help. Any help would be great*.[/FONT]

Good luck.  Kick their butts...


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## ShinKen (Dec 6, 2006)

I can care less about what rank I am, but the fact that everyone else does is exactly the problem.  I would do without dan ranks compleatly if it were up to me.  But think of it from the average persons mindset.  They don't know the differance from one school to another. Most people that have never trained think they are all the same.  They go with which one is cheaper, which one their child has friends at or they have co workers/friends at.  If they can't go with any of those reasons, what makes them choose me, a 4th dan who knows what he is doing, or the other guy, a 30 year old 10th dan that is a world champion but never fought north of North Ave.?  They dont understand anything other than "well, if he is a higher rank and he is a "world champion", then he must be a better teacher and a better school".  I guess I can create my own system and promote my-self to 20th dan super ninja warrior status, but then how am I differant than them?  Anyone who takes their training remoltly seriously knows at least 12 schools in their area that are like that.


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## Andrew Green (Dec 6, 2006)

What Flying Crane said 

Paying $30k for someones stamp is insane, and the reality of it is that it doesn't give you anything more and just about all of your students really won't care whether there certificate gets that stamp.

Martial arts ranks is a broken system, often used to trap a person into organization, keep them "under" someone else, etc.

Go your own way, you'll be much better off for it in the end.


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## bushidomartialarts (Dec 6, 2006)

shinken, i went through exactly the same situation before starting my own school. pm me and let's chat.


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## terryl965 (Dec 6, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> What Flying Crane said
> 
> Paying $30k for someones stamp is insane, and the reality of it is that it doesn't give you anything more and just about all of your students really won't care whether there certificate gets that stamp.
> 
> ...


 

I agree with this as well, association are about control you are in business for yourself so why pay someone for a stamp. You can always have a board of BB at every test you give and have them sign off on you students and keep control of you business.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 6, 2006)

ShinKen said:


> I can care less about what rank I am, but the fact that everyone else does is exactly the problem. I would do without dan ranks compleatly if it were up to me. But think of it from the average persons mindset. They don't know the differance from one school to another. Most people that have never trained think they are all the same. They go with which one is cheaper, which one their child has friends at or they have co workers/friends at. If they can't go with any of those reasons, what makes them choose me, a 4th dan who knows what he is doing, or the other guy, a 30 year old 10th dan that is a world champion but never fought north of North Ave.? They dont understand anything other than "well, if he is a higher rank and he is a "world champion", then he must be a better teacher and a better school". I guess I can create my own system and promote my-self to 20th dan super ninja warrior status, but then how am I differant than them? Anyone who takes their training remoltly seriously knows at least 12 schools in their area that are like that.


 

I completely understand your points.  However, I really think this is a chance to break out of the mold and do things the way you KNOW it would be better, and not worry about rank.  I don't teach, but I often felt that if I did, I would completely disregard dan ranks.  I figure, once you reach black belt, that should just be it.  If you still need rank as a motivator to continue training and learning, then you don't deserve black belt at all.

As far as the competition with other schools goes, I think you should just establish yourself with a reputation for outstanding training and instruction, rank be damned.  You will always be competing with the 30 year old grandmasters no matter what, but I think people who choose to educate themselves a bit will start to figure out who really has the goods.  And those are the people you want for students anyways.  The ones who are just looking to pick up quick rank should be shown the door if they resist being enlightened.

Personally, all other things being equal, I tend to shy away from the high ranking people anyways.  Most of those high ranks are self-promotions of some sort, and at the very least they probably indicate a big ego problem that I would rather not deal with.  I would definitely go train with the 4th degree with 25 years experience over the 10th degree with 35 years experience.  At least that 4th degree is someone who probably isn't fooling himself and trying to fool the public about his rank, knowledge, and skills.

Seriously, you probably have other friends in the martial arts, maybe some of them are also teachers.  Band together and support each other.  Not by way of giving each other new rank, that's just nonsense.  I mean support each other's efforts as teachers, maybe do seminars for each other's students, encourage openness among your schools, give out the good word to people looking to train in what they teach, and they do the same for you.  That's the kind of association that makes sense.  Not paying a pile of money to use someone else's name as a marketing gimmick, and to rubberstamp another promotion for you.

Give it some serious thought.  This could really be  great opportunity for you.  Set your own standards and don't feel like you need to get validation from someone else.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 6, 2006)

Nice posts Flying Crane.  I would stand on my own two feet unless what the organization has to offer is something spectacular.  I went through these same questions a long time ago.  No matter what you will need to figure out what it is that *you want*.  Do you want to be part of this organization or not.  That really is the question.  I believe like Flying Crane and pretty much everyone else that you should probably stand on your own two feet and give it a go.  I did in a different situation and circumstances by founding an art and believe me I have not been dissapointed.  Having said that my situation was different in that I still train with all of my teachers and also in the arts that they teach. (we are all on great terms)


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 6, 2006)

You&#8217;re getting a lot of great responses here and I can add little but coming from CMA background rank means little and organizations mean less. My Sifu&#8217;s Sifu told him he could teach and it was a done deal. My first Sifu told me I could teach and it was a done deal no extra payment no organization and no rank. I use to teach out of 2 local YMCAs and it was a pretty good deal at the time. 

However since the rank was given to you I would say it is yours whether or not they revoke it or not. If they revoke it because you decide to go your own way then I do not think much of the organization. They appear to be more interested in limiting competition than having quality teachers of quality martial arts. 

You paid your fees to get where you are you did your time to get the rank and the rank is your. If you need an organization there is one out of Japan that may help but I know little about it. But if I can find it I will post it. There are those on this site that are in Japan that may know if it is worth while or not.

And $30,000 sounds a little steep to me.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 6, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> My Sifus Sifu told him he could teach and it was a done deal. My first Sifu told me I could teach and it was a done deal no extra payment no organization and no rank.


 

This is how it should be.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 6, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> This is how it should be.


 
Absolutely!


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## ArmorOfGod (Dec 6, 2006)

I teach at a local community center.  The only org I am a member of is Karate For Christ International, but there are no fees for that.  I teach my students and they pay me.  I give a percentage of that to the community center and I do not charge them any associational dues or anything like that.

I have pm'd you my opinion.  A black belt is not like milk--it doesn't go bad.  It defenitely does not expire if you don't pay your yearly dues.  There is an excellent article about that in the Jan. 2005 issue of Black Belt mag by Keith Vargo that says that your rank can not be removed or cancelled because you went solo or dropped from the group.  It was given to you to represent your knowledge.  You still have that knowledge, so you still are that rank.

Drop their assocation, start your own class, and find someone or a reputable organization to promote you in the future if you feel the need.  Still, at 4rth degree, you should be perfectly competant and able to handle and promote your students yourself.

You do not need 30 grand to buy a name.  Just go out and start your school on your own.  Franchises are nice, but not needed.

Good luck,
AoG


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 6, 2006)

ShinKen said:


> The bigger problem is the fact that I can not be promoted. I like to encourage students to always work hard to attain higher ranks. That way they are always training, and trying to get better. But how can I tell them to do it if I can't do it?


Not that big of a problem to your students; you could drop the stripes all toguether and they wouldn't care.
Sean


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## stickarts (Dec 6, 2006)

ShinKen said:


> [FONT=&quot]First of all, hello to everyone. I have been reading martial talk for a while now getting some great info, but now I have a question that may have been asked, but I can't find it anywhere.[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]I am still in the planning phase, but I want to open and own my own school. I have been running a very successful school for almost 10 years now and I want to move up. Here is the problem:[/FONT]
> 
> ...


 

You can start your own venture far enough away from your previous school so as not to be in direct competition with them and there are plenty of resources out there to help you. Many teachers and many organizations. If you have the passion and commitment then I encourage you to do it. If you teach quality material and treat people well you will build students. I started out on my own as an independent school in 1993 and what a fantastic experience it has been! But you have to want to do it very badly because it is a huge committment and it can be very challenging!
Good luck!! Let us know how you progress!


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## exile (Dec 6, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> Seriously, you probably have other friends in the martial arts, maybe some of them are also teachers.  Band together and support each other.  Not by way of giving each other new rank, that's just nonsense.  I mean support each other's efforts as teachers, maybe do seminars for each other's students, encourage openness among your schools, give out the good word to people looking to train in what they teach, and they do the same for you.  That's the kind of association that makes sense.  Not paying a pile of money to use someone else's name as a marketing gimmick, and to rubberstamp another promotion for you.



This point of FC's is absolutely central to the future of the MAs, in this country at least, I believe.  The point of the early MA associations was to establish credible certifying bodies that could clients guarantees of legitimacy and quality. Would anyone say that the notion of an MA association conveys that assurance _now?_ The multiplication of these associations, with shady mutual promotions, in at least some cases `long distance', the dubious claims of key figures in any number of them, the bad blood and internal faction-fighting that we've read discussed in gory detail in various threads on our own board, seem to make it pretty clear that that model of MA organization has gone a long way towards self-destructing. 

What FC is describing here could be a kind of sketch for a new model, based on cooperation and alliance for mutual interest and the common good of the participating schools---sharing resources, joint programs, all kinds of possibilities. My sense is, the most important selling factor for an MA school, in the long run, isn't going to be cases of trophies, certificates of 100th dan rank or slick web sites with ten-screen biographies of the founder. Word of mouth---this is a great school, the instructors are knowledgeable, approachable and dedicated---and consistent good results based on hard work by both teachers and students, generating more top-notch word-of-mouth, is probably going to be a much better foundation for success, along the lines of FC's post. 



			
				Brian van C. said:
			
		

> I did in a different situation and circumstances by founding an art and believe me I have not been dissapointed. Having said that my situation was different in that I still train with all of my teachers and also in the arts that they teach. (we are all on great terms)



It sounds like Brian's experience with starting his own school but keeping his bridges to his instructors' schools in good repair is a real, living case of this new kind of model. I think that in the end, a lot of very good instructors who are being squeezed by the greedheads and control freaks in their organizations are going to figure this out on their own, and we're going to start seeing webs and networks of independent but allied schools with both their own individual programs and also joint programs and activities---_you_ have some really good grappling teachers at your school? _We'll_ give them associate status in our program; _your_ students have access to _our_ street-combat people, etc. It's gotta be a better model than the zero-cred `association' model has, by this point...


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## ArmorOfGod (Dec 6, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> Not that big of a problem to your students; you could drop the stripes all toguether and they wouldn't care.
> Sean


 
I agree with this.  None of the teachers I have been under (10th dan, 8th dan, and 5th dan) wore stripes on their belts.  They taught well and had good, solid curriculum.  That is all that matters to a student.

AoG


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## tsdclaflin (Dec 7, 2006)

ShinKen said:


> [FONT=&quot]The next problem is the fact that I don't know how I can get promoted beyond 4th. I do currently train in another art, but I have only been doing it for a year. I am a member of the American Kenpo Karate Association, and they said they will recognize me as a 4th dan in American Karate, but they can't promote me beyond that.[/FONT]


 
http://www.aikia.net/

I moved almost 3000 miles from my instructor, school and association.  I started a school and searched and searched for an association on the west coast that matched the curriculum of my east coast training.  Well, I did finally find a good Tang Soo Do association.  However, prior to that, I had decided to join the AIKIA.  I never did, but my research indicated that they would be the best association for rank recognition and advancement.

Bail and go for it!


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## huntly_kickboxing (Dec 16, 2006)

Look belts hold your pants up, if your as good as you say then take the plunge and start up a your own school style, students will see how good u are as a instructor not a person wearing a colored belt with stripes on. Start your own grading system, kata what ever you want in YOUR style.,then franchise but at realistic prices, for the love of your style not the monetary gain alot of organisations seek.. All martial arts styles had to start some where. 
Your path is in front of you take the first step, and the journey begins.


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## ShinKen (Jan 3, 2007)

You all have been a great help.  I have made my choice.  Now I just need some money to get started.  

I am very happy with my skills and status in the martial arts.  I, of course, always aim to become better, but I do believe that I do a good job at teaching, training, and overall running a school.  The biggest problem I see in the future is: What happens when someday I have a student or students that are ready to promote to 4th dan?  I am a forth, and I will still be a forth at that time.  How do I promote them?  This is of course in the event that I don't find an organization to belong to.  I can careless about rank, but the common american public does care about it.

Brian, how does your ranking go with your school?


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## Cryozombie (Jan 3, 2007)

ShinKen said:


> What happens when someday I have a student or students that are ready to promote to 4th dan?  I am a forth, and I will still be a forth at that time.  How do I promote them?



<sarcasm>Do like most of the rest of the world does... call yourself "Soke" and promote yourself to 10th dan. </sarcasm>

Worry about that when it happens, you have years till then.  In the meantime, keep training at that "other" school you belong to.  While you wont reach 4td dan that fast there, or surpass it, you will still be progressing... and when it comes time to promote your students to 4th Dan, YOU will decide, being the head of YOUR organization, if you can do it or not. 

If they feel the need to rank beyond 4th, well, honestly man, they will leave you... but if the teaching is good, and the school worthwhile they may stick around.  And, besides, as I am sure you have seen yourself, a lot of people fall out after 1st dan... if they even make it that far.  If you can hold them to 4th, way to go...


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## ArmorOfGod (Jan 4, 2007)

ShinKen said:


> You all have been a great help. I have made my choice. Now I just need some money to get started.
> 
> I am very happy with my skills and status in the martial arts. I, of course, always aim to become better, but I do believe that I do a good job at teaching, training, and overall running a school. The biggest problem I see in the future is: What happens when someday I have a student or students that are ready to promote to 4th dan? I am a forth, and I will still be a forth at that time. How do I promote them? This is of course in the event that I don't find an organization to belong to. I can careless about rank, but the common american public does care about it.


 
I wouldn't worry too much about that just yet.  It should take around 12-15 years of training to hit 4th dan (and I am lowballing that number).
If you really are concerned about it though, a month ago I sent you a list of decent organizations such as http://www.aikia.net/ that would promote you to a higher rank.
I have mixed feelings about orgs that will promote people, but realize they are sometimes are needed.

AoG


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## Phoenix44 (Feb 5, 2007)

Well, here's my 2 cents:

Either you stay with them, or you pay $30K, or you lose your rank? That's blackmail, and in my opinion, your instructors should be ashamed of themselves.

Can you imagine earning your MD degree at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital, but unless you continue working at Columbia, you lose your medical license?

No one can take away your knowledge.  I say, follow your dream, keep training, and don't worry about how many stripes you have on your black belt.


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## gixxershane (Mar 1, 2007)

1) is there any way that you can see if you can own your own school and still be part of their orginization..like having higher ranks test in front of their board.. and pay some sort of affiliation fee??

2) if not is there any schools near by that teach the same system that will honor your rank and can promote you in the future?

3) how about gaining rank in a nother system? is this an option in a worst case sinairo(sp)?

i think that you do have options and as some one said that they can kick you out of the orginization but to actually take your rank, bs!

shane


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