# Bujinkan Bashing



## Obi Wan Shinobi (Apr 30, 2008)

Hey guys I've come across these clips on youtube bashing the Bujinkan. Quite frankly I feel that this person does not understand the principles of the Bujinkan way of fighting. They are obviously biased and do not understand the difference between training for sport and training for self defense. I am a Deputy Sheriff in Florida and have also work as a State Corrections Officer and Detention Deputy and can say that Bujinkan has saved my rump more than once. I have also served in the USMC for 5 years as a grunt (0351, 0331) prior to the MCMAP and can say that no matter how effective an system the Marines use they still will train you slow at first until you become effective. Those Marines are more likely to be trainers themselves and therefore are training at a different level than what the line troops will be. Also theres the fear of Marines becoming injured and therefore causing a shortage of deployable troops. Also if I'm not mistaking Jack Hoban himself was a subject matter expert in creating the MCMAP. So this guy doesn't really have a clue to the MCMAP. Also this guy compares what seems to be MMA competition to an Bujinkan instructor teaching a waza slowly to his students. First of all most MMA fighters only fight maybe 3-4 fights per year where their opponents are of the same weight class and view prior fights to set up a strategy. Not to mention that in the cage there are no unknowns. There are no weapons, no eye gouges, no biting, no finger bends, no ear popping, the cage is clean and there is a referee to stop the fight if it one gets knocked out or is unable to defend himself. Not to mention that after five minutes you get a break. We fight to survive not to win....and we don't walk away with a belt and money just hopefully with our lives. As for the fight clips shown I've seen worse in the jails. The thing is we have to assume that our assailants will almost always be bigger, stronger and faster so then we train to use superior techniques and training. I'm only 5'7" 200lbs most people in the world are bigger than me. Those fighting clips only show that fighters that are pretty much wailing on each other until the stronger guy prevails. Basically survival of the fittest. Well thats the western philosophy towards fighting that you have to be bigger and faster in order to win. Which is why this guy doesn't understand what the Bujinkan offers to those who are vertically and physically challenged. I do believe and I'm guilty of it that alot of Bujinkan members physicaly fitness is lacking. I do work 12hr shifts and train in BBT twice a week and teach once a week. I am a single father of two so therefore life gets in the way. And I'm sure I'm not the only one but we do what we can when we can. These MMA guys and Marines are paid to stay in shape and have all the facilities and time to do so. The average Joe works, take cares of his/her family and trains whenever possible. I only say this since whoever this guy that posted these clips on youtube seems to have a vendetta against the Bujinkan. Even though not all Shodans are created equally within the Booj and some schools trains harder and faster than others doesn't qualify this person to discount and disrespect the Bujinkan in the manner he does.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi (Apr 30, 2008)

Sorry guys heres the second clip


----------



## Tez3 (May 1, 2008)

I would have been grateful if both they and you had left MMA out of it. As I repeated say on here (I'm sure someones counting the times!) MMA is a sport, we train differently for SD. MMA fighters are very capable of doing other things in a street fight, they are not sole defined by their sport. many are very good TMAs.
I understand where you are coming from and personally I would ignore stuff like these videos ( I only saw the second one, you have to register to see the first) but in a way you are doing to MMA what they are doing to you. MMA fighters are more than the sum of their parts! We like competing and there's no need to put us down for that! We can also defend ourselves outside the ring using different 'rules' if you like or no rules if you prefer to put it that way and we too can hopefully walk away with our lives.
Very few MMA fighters  get paid to keep fit, they will be paid a purse to fight but they all have jobs, careers, families etc and train as and when they can. There is only a handful of fighters that make any money at all out of MMA let alone a living. Micheal Bisping was working in his job until very recently. I can't think of another MMA fighter in this country who is supported by MMA fighting. many will also travel to train not always having facilities on their doorsteps. 
Yes you have your 'superstars' but literally a handful compared to the thousands of MMA fighters who do it for the love of martial arts just like many thousands of others pursuing their martial arts dreams.


----------



## Bigshadow (May 1, 2008)

Just let it go...  Obviously the person who produced the videos has an elementary school level of understanding about self defense and martial arts, more specifically Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

I don't give them much thought.  I "KNOW" that BBT works and is all that matters to me.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 1, 2008)

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> I am a Deputy Sheriff in Florida and have also work as a State Corrections Officer and Detention Deputy and can say that Bujinkan has saved my rump more than once.


 
Sounds to me like you did, not the Bujinkan.



Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> Those fighting clips only show that fighters that are pretty much wailing on each other until the stronger guy prevails. Basically survival of the fittest. Well thats the western philosophy towards fighting that you have to be bigger and faster in order to win


 
Flat-out not true.


----------



## MJS (May 1, 2008)

I don't train in the Bujinkan or any other X-Kan, but I have seen the videos in question and of course, I've seen my share of bashing of arts.  I have to agree with Dave (Bigshadow) just let it go.  I certainly know its hard to sit back and see someone bash something you like, but it happens with every art.  I train in Kenpo and I've heard my share of comments.  

The sad part is, is that way too many people bash their opinion of something off of a clip.  IMHO, if someone has no idea about an art, how can you get an accurate description of what the art is all about?  People who post clips like that, I'd bet, probably have never set foot in a good Bujinkan school.  And if they have, they should not necessarily base their opinion off of just that school, seeing that there're thousands of schools.  So unless someone sees how everyone in the world trains, you can't really judge anything with 100% accuracy.  

As for whats better...IMO, there is no perfect art.  If there was, that art would have all the students and everyone else would close up shop.  Every art has their strong and weak spots, and I feel that we can all learn from one another.  I'm a MMA fan and I have just about every UFC and still watch them.  Is it the best art?  No.  But, I've picked up ideas and added them to my training.  I cross train in grappling, which I never really did until the UFC craze came about.  Do MMA people train for things outside the ring?  I'm sure they do, although I don't know the percentage of who does/doesnt.  

In the end, I really don't care what anyone thinks of my arts that I train in.  I'm more than happy with my teachers and I wouldn't have been with them all this time if they weren't giving me what I'm looking to get from training.   I know how I train, and I know what I can/can't do, and I work to improve in my weak areas all the time.  

If someone would rather spend their time forming opinions from youtube, and bashing arts, rather than getting on the mats and training hard, more power to them.  I know where I'm going to be and what I'm going to be doing, and its certainly not what they are. 

Mike


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi (May 1, 2008)

Tez3 you are right I was a little hasty in the MMA comparison. The MMA guys do have abilities on and off the mat so I apologize for that one. Its just that I was in boxing for 5 years during my teen years and alot of what worked in the ring didn't in a streetfight so I did a hasty comparison. Again my apologies.

Grey Eyed Bandit while I appreciate your confidence in my ability I do have to say that the training I received in the Bujinkan did in fact helped in getting myself out of some hairy situations. The Florida Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission which pretty much tells us what techniques are to taught during the Academy and annual recertifications. In all those techniques which are similar to the ones used in Aikido, Judo and in some instances the Bujinkan are suppose to be soft style moves that have been converted to hard style. Which now teaches a move that should have used body movement and momentum against the aggressor. Now teaches them the same move using only strength and power. I am not a big guy and therefore I cannot afford to meet someone bigger, stronger and faster than me with strength and technique alone. Its been my experience in both the military and law enforcement that emphasis on size, strength and speed is what makes someone an good fighter. Just my opinion. Anyways Big Shadow you make a good point, thank you sir.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (May 1, 2008)

I think that you have to take this kind of stuff with a grain of salt.  Many, many people who train in Budo Taijutsu and have used it in real life confrontations.  Also MMA is very,very effective in its own right. (I love mma as well)  Bottom line is that big organizations attract people disagreeing with what they do and that is fine.  

*Find what works for you and what you can use in the moment*.  Pressure test it when you can so that you know it works as well.  That is important!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 1, 2008)

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> while I appreciate your confidence in my ability I do have to say that the training I received in the Bujinkan did in fact helped in getting myself out of some hairy situations.


 
I don't buy these kinds of arguments anymore, partially because I've met many people with similar professions who consider taijutsu methodology to be utterly worthless. But that's me.



Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> The Florida Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission which pretty much tells us what techniques are to taught during the Academy and annual recertifications. In all those techniques which are similar to the ones used in Aikido, Judo and in some instances the Bujinkan are suppose to be soft style moves that have been converted to hard style. Which now teaches a move that should have used body movement and momentum against the aggressor. Now teaches them the same move using only strength and power.


 
I noticed pretty much the same thing during my certification courses, especially the one that taught the usage of handcuffs.


----------



## punisher73 (May 1, 2008)

It's hard when the art that you love is misrepresenting by someone with little or no knowledge of it.  I have been on that end before.

On the other hand, look at the fight clips and then take the time to look within your martial art and ask "If I was in that situation what tools/techniques would I use?" and then TEST THEM so you can apply them to a violent encounter.

It is NOT going to look pretty like in the dojo, but it doesn't have to be perfect, it only has to be effective.


----------



## allenjp (May 1, 2008)

You know, I am not interested in bashing the Bunjinkan, as a matter of fact I plan to train in this art as soon as I can figure out a practical way of getting to the nearest dojo (it's currently too far to fit into my schedule). In fact I already went to a trial lesson, and the instructor extended me an invitation to train there. I love the efficiency of movement they teach, and the lack of wasted energy. I also know that in many of those clips they are intentionally going slow so that people can really see what is being done, and to prevent serious injury to the ukes. And despite what is said on the video clips, I know that the weapons training is very useful in real life (I believe the length of those swords they use is roughly the same as a baseball bat or pool stick).

That said, I must say that I have had some of the same questions about the emphasis on lunge punches. I'm not sure if that is the type of punch that most people are going to throw at me these days (besides of course the average drunk idiot trying to throw haymakers). I AM sure that no trained fighter is going to throw that kind of puch because they know extending your arm like that is a great way to expose yourself to punishment (quite possible I am wrong on that). Most punches thrown today are going to be short boxing type punches that retract quickly and make it difficult to get a hold of the arm or wrist in the ways that are demonstrated. Can those techniques be adopted to deal with shorter quicker type punches?

Also, are lunge punches useful as an offense technique in a real fight? When I went to my trial lesson, the instructor taught me to throw a lunge punch and aim for the throat. There are two potential advantages I can see from this type of punch: they have a much larger range than boxing type punches, and they can be deceptive, in that the opponent may think that you are too far away to punch him, and you can still reach him. But if someone knows what they are doing, are you not opening yourself up by throwing a punch like that, or am I off base? Stephen Hayes seems to have tried to adopt some of his techniques to deal with shorter punches, but there are no quest centers anywhere near me, and I don't know if I like the atmosphere I have seen in the clips of his dojos. 

Can anyone who has trained in Bujinkan comment on these thoughts for me? This will not affect my decision to train in Bujinkan, that is already decided, the only question is when. I would just like ideas on these thoughts from someone who knows.

Thanks guys.


----------



## punisher73 (May 1, 2008)

allenjp said:


> You know, I am not interested in bashing the Bunjinkan, as a matter of fact I plan to train in this art as soon as I can figure out a practical way of getting to the nearest dojo (it's currently too far to fit into my schedule). In fact I already went to a trial lesson, and the instructor extended me an invitation to train there. I love the efficiency of movement they teach, and the lack of wasted energy. I also know that in many of those clips they are intentionally going slow so that people can really see what is being done, and to prevent serious injury to the ukes. And despite what is said on the video clips, I know that the weapons training is very useful in real life (I believe the length of those swords they use is roughly the same as a baseball bat or pool stick).
> 
> That said, I must say that I have had some of the same questions about the emphasis on lunge punches. I'm not sure if that is the type of punch that most people are going to throw at me these days (besides of course the average drunk idiot trying to throw haymakers). I AM sure that no trained fighter is going to throw that kind of puch because they know extending your arm like that is a great way to expose yourself to punishment (quite possible I am wrong on that). Most punches thrown today are going to be short boxing type punches that retract quickly and make it difficult to get a hold of the arm or wrist in the ways that are demonstrated. Can those techniques be adopted to deal with shorter quicker type punches?
> 
> ...


 
Just an add on thought,  I just recently went to some knife training and I was watching all of the students and ALL of the students that did not have prior training of some kind would have their left foot forward and the knife in their right hand (rear hand) and then step through and try to stab the other person, just like a typical lunge punch.


----------



## allenjp (May 1, 2008)

Interesting observation...good eye.


----------



## Bigshadow (May 1, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> ALL of the students that did not have prior training of some kind would have their left foot forward and the knife in their right hand (rear hand) and then step through and try to stab the other person




As opposed to stabbing first and the step following the hand?


----------



## allenjp (May 1, 2008)

Bigshadow said:


> As opposed to stabbing first and the step following the hand?


 
I think he means as opposed to holding the knife in the lead hand and jabbing with it?


----------



## Bigshadow (May 1, 2008)

allenjp said:


> I think he means as opposed to holding the knife in the lead hand and jabbing with it?



Sorry, I was playing around the order of things.  It really doesn't matter which hand or which foot is forward, the cut or stab comes FIRST and the step follows as part of ONE  motion (if necessary).  

He is right, many students step first then stab and some stab first and then step, but either way it is often done 2 disconnected movements.

However, the bashing is just noise...  I ignore it.  One cannot look at one particular school or just couple of people and make assumptions.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 1, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Most punches thrown today are going to be short boxing type punches that retract quickly and make it difficult to get a hold of the arm or wrist in the ways that are demonstrated.


 
Most punches thrown by whom?



allenjp said:


> Can those techniques be adopted to deal with shorter quicker type punches?


 
Elbows move slower than hands.



allenjp said:


> Also, are lunge punches useful as an offense technique in a real fight?


 
About as useful as a shinai when compared to a katana.


----------



## allenjp (May 1, 2008)

I would say the majority of people who have any experience in fights would throw this type of punch, but I suppose I could be wrong.

I'm not sure I know what you're trying to say when you say elbows are slower than hands. Does that have something to do with the type of punch thrown?

I'm not sure what a shinai is (sorry) but I assume you're saying that lunge punches are not effective as an offense...then what would be the point of practising them so much?


----------



## Bigshadow (May 1, 2008)

Regarding lunge punches, I am sure there are several threads on the topic in this forum that you may want to search for.  They pretty much cover the basics of what is correct, not correct, over committed, sloppy kamae, etc.  Feel free to search around.  

It is a great question, but really, it is a subject for another thread as this one is about Bujinkan bashing.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 2, 2008)

allenjp said:


> I would say the majority of people who have any experience in fights would throw this type of punch, but I suppose I could be wrong.


 
People who want to take your head off don't jab. People you're fighting do that.



allenjp said:


> I'm not sure I know what you're trying to say when you say elbows are slower than hands.


 
If elbows move slower than hands, which one is the easiest to control?



allenjp said:


> I'm not sure what a shinai is (sorry) but I assume you're saying that lunge punches are not effective as an offense...then what would be the point of practising them so much?


 
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=736099&postcount=226


----------



## Highland Ninja (May 5, 2008)

I watched the video. Well, chalk up 4 minutes of my life flushed down the toilet. 

All I have to say is, what sort of mental or emotional illness drives a person to produce a 4 minute video designed to denigrate an art they clearly have no experience with? That's clearly not a sign of mental health. 

Bah. Ignore them. 

I'm off to throw some shuriken and make up for those 4 flushed minutes. :supcool:


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi (May 5, 2008)

Yeah..well I for one gotta admit that I let the clip get the best of me. Its just that with all the Hollywood movies in the 80's portraying ninjutsu negatively. And with the neo-ninja koga guys making it even worse. I probably reached my limit after watching the clip. I bow in humbleness.


----------



## SageGhost83 (May 5, 2008)

Youtube is not exactly the place to find educated individuals if you know what I mean. There will always be people who bash any and every art - that is just the nature of the arts. This particular person is dumber than a sack of bricks and twice as dense. It seems that his purpose is nothing more than to bash Bujinkan. I wouldn't pay him any attention and I wouldn't let him get you all angry - that is exactly what he wants! The fact that Bujinkan is worldwide speaks to its effectiveness as an art. Seems that he is just jealous because he isn't in the Bujinkan, himself. Mister "I can't do it, so I'll support the latest "in" thing in the martial arts community and use it to attack the really cool club that I wasn't able to get into"...Well, you get my point. Long live the Bujinkan!


----------



## SageGhost83 (May 5, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> Youtube is not exactly the place to find educated individuals if you know what I mean.


 
There are youtubers who are doing martial arts home study via posted videos. Nintaijutsu, anyone?


----------



## Cryozombie (May 6, 2008)

I watched the second video, and to be honest with you, Anyone could take that footage and make those kinds of arguments.

I'm gonna use the MMA and MCMAP examples he used in there as well... 

I got some MMA "training" at the MT Meet and Greet in 2006.  It was done slow and at a pace to see how the techniques were done.  If I videotaped that and put a caption to it "THIS IS EFFECTIVE?!?!?" it would look the same as what the guy who created that Video did with slow Buj techniques.  By the same token I could grab that footage where the ref kept running in and stopping the fight and add the "This is REAL fighting???"   I'm not sure what the guy's point is... since that can be done with anything if you get the right video clips to support your POV.

As far as MCMAP goes... all the idiots who use that in support of their arguments for MMA and against the Buj tend to forget that Jack Hoban was one of the co-creators of the program, so if you are going to claim that MCMAP is "Real" then you must be claiming Buj is real also.

It's all such a joke.


----------



## Jisha (Jul 30, 2008)

Hello to everyone!

I saw the youtube videos some weeks ago maybe and I must admit I got a mixture of feelings, ranging from wrath to unconfidence. But they lasted for pretty short time. It was obvios that the video poster had no idea of what BDBT means and that he has not seen a real trainig actually taking place. 

On the other hand we all have doubts, mostly we we start (as I am stating after 10 years training) concerning our art. I think it's normal and it reflects also a certain lack of self-confidence, not only lack in the art itself. 

This lack of self/art-confidence leafds me to a questio another poster asked, a question we might as well pose to ourselves in every aspect of our training: "Is this honest?" 

I think lunged punches are honest for waht they are: they represent someone trieing to punch you. In the case of the boxer the movement is done with much less space developed by the arm and usually not stepping forward. It should really make us think. 

The idea I've come about with is that in real life situation the punch really has to travel AT LEAST to your own body for it to strike, so there is a time, a  glimpse when the arm y more or les strechted and the body is slightly geared towards you, you "just" have to be able to land your (insert waza here) in correct timing and space for it to be useful. 

My instructor has to practice what he preaches not only to pay his rents, but also to survive his "day by day". From time to time we experience what shinekn gata would look like, with him; If you train well and develop the art as it is requiered you really won't care how the punches are thrown at you...

Excuse this long first post but the thread includes an aspect of bujinkan that are in "everyone's mouth" nowadays (effectiveness or not) and I'm truly involved in this issue. 

PD: also exuse my english, it's not my mother tongue.


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 30, 2008)

People who put stupid videos up on the internet disparaging other arts need to get a friggin life.


----------



## newtothe dark (Jul 31, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> People who put stupid videos up on the internet disparaging other arts need to get a friggin life.


 

Maybe if they trained more and posted less they might be good enough to learn to have a life. Good post Mook


----------



## Tsuki-Yomi (Jul 31, 2008)

> Maybe if they trained more and posted less they might be good enough to learn to have a life.


You are definitely on track with your statement. I believe the majority of people that post these videos have very little, if any experience in Budo Taijutsu. 

They watch a movie and figure this art is all about how it is portrayed on the big screen. After one or two classes they find themselves resentful, and feel as if they have been cheated out of money because they are'nt hiding under water, or spitting darts out of a blowgun, then quit.

The next step and the most logical in there mind is to point the finger at the art instead of themselves, and label it ineffective. Someone or something always has to be at blame instead of themselves.

Whats bad out of this whole ordeal is that many people view these clips and form an opinion as to the effectiveness of our art based on a two minute clip of a waza that the original poster probably didnt even understand what it was intended for.


----------



## nitflegal (Aug 1, 2008)

The one thing that I'd like to add is that over the years playing in the Bujinkan I've been taught proper taijutsu for throwing jabs, reverse punches, lunging punches, hook punches and so forth.  I've been taught stomp kicks, toe kicks, kicks with the side of the foot, hooking kicks, and kicks with the ball of the foot.  The idea that Bujinkan folks only punch by throwing their rear hand forward while maintaining straight alignment from the rear heel to the forward knuckles out of fear that a Tengu will smite them from the clouds is kind of silly.  In my probably limited experience there are ways that are taught to build strong foundations and muscle-memory that were primarily training tools or were useful in the real world in a specific sub-set.  To think that the punching illustration in Hayes' Ninja volume 4 book is the only way to punch is rather silly.

Put another way, when I started training back in '91 I whined a wee bit about learning that lunge punch as I was slow, it felt hugely telegraphed, and I'd never seen anyone use a similar punch in a real fight.  Mahoney-sensei handed me a kicking shield and proceeded to throw about 6-7 completely different types of punches, all of which rocked me back.  His comment was that when I got the hang of the baby-level punch he'd teach me the others.  . .  The flip side is, I used said lunge punch by accident when I was bouncing as my forward foot skidded in a beer puddle and it worked quite well AND all of my repetitions meant that my body fell into a stable position to land the punch instead of depositing me on my butt.

IMHO, anytime someone criticizes an art that many have found valuable (be it Bujinkan, Aikido, karate, Gung fu, etc) without actually studying it for a decent length of time they run the risk of missing the valuable stuff in the art they never had a chance to see.  It'd be like watching a filmstrip of a US Marine doing pushups in his first week of boot and deciding that the Marines are terrible fighters; cripes, they don't even use rifles and tanks!

Matt


----------



## Hayseed (Aug 8, 2008)

I think that alot of us online are quickly and unnecessarily harsh on people who talk down on our art, calling them idiots, losers & so-forth.  Let me clarify quickly before I'm lynched.   People who make videos, like the one posted, do so because they genuinely believe the Bujinkan to be a scam.  They do so for the same reason that any one of us laugh our asses off when the K***g*n, Ashida Kim, or Nintaijutsu folks come around.  

That's not to say that those arts are just misunderstood, quite the opposite actually.  However, think about how it makes you feel to know that so many people believe that they're receiving traditional or effective techniques when we know the truth about it.  

Now imagine that even one of those organisations had the numbers that we have.  I know, for myself anyway, that I would almost feel it my duty as a martial artist to make sure that everyone I could come into contact with, knew what I know.  Don't you?

Honestly, if youtube was filled with vids of shinken taijutsu, and skilled randori, instead of beginner learning vids, this really wouldn't even be an issue.  Sure, there would still be people petty enough to make fun of it, but it would be a hell of alot fewer.

Couple that with how fervently people defend something that really doesn't need defending, at least to those who've chosen to give such a thing a chance, and you've got a recipe for prime trolling.

If you guys honestly want these things to go away, at least from our boards anyway, stop responding to people as soon as it becomes clear that they're not sincerely seeking info.  As well as try to have a bit more patience with those, caught up in believing so much hype.

I can't remember what forum I read it on(MT, MAP, E-Budo etc.) But someone posted something I found poignant..."Should we cut down everyone who throws a fake punch at us?"

I like to think of it as a lesson in Fudoshin.

Regards


----------

