# Judo or Taekwondo for best self defense?



## BmillerWarrior (Nov 27, 2017)

Which art is best for practical self defense between the two? Also what arts blend well with both of these styles? I don't want to hear it's whichever art you love that works best... I want real answers and opinions. Thanks!


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

You've asked (and been answered) the blending question in two other threads - why start it again?

As for which is best for SD, I think you'll get mixed answers on that, and it will depend a lot how you (and the school you join) train it. For me, Judo. Why? It's the first art I used in SD.


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## Encho (Nov 27, 2017)

Hi bmillerwarrior,
Questions like this often arise in forums over the years with x and y arts, the definition of self defense is open to interpretation and different definition. The classical debate of is a striking art vs a grappling art is also beating a read horse.

I do not see much of a conflict to practice both, I have seen taekwondo schools teach yudo the Korean for judo and taekwondo. 

In my opinion no style is supreme over other styles, each style if used in the right context by an experienced practitioner at the right time is good for self defense. In my opinion I would look more for a teacher who can teach the art that has effective theory and has a similar fit to your goals.


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## BmillerWarrior (Nov 27, 2017)

I have had serious interest in Judo well before I had interest in TKD. I think starting a journey in judo now instead of later would be better since Judo seems kind of rough on the body since I'm only 30 right now. I think it would be better for me to start my judo journey as my base and then start tkd when I'm a judo first dan and then train judo and tkd concurrently. I already have two judo gis. It makes sense. And keep up with some boxing on the side. I like how in expensive judo and boxing are compared to most other arts these days as well. 


gpseymour said:


> You've asked (and been answered) the blending question in two other threads - why start it again?
> 
> As for which is best for SD, I think you'll get mixed answers on that, and it will depend a lot how you (and the school you join) train it. For me, Judo. Why? It's the first art I used in SD.


d


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

BmillerWarrior said:


> I have had serious interest in Judo well before I had interest in TKD. I think starting a journey in judo now instead of later would be better since Judo seems kind of rough on the body since I'm only 30 right now. I think it would be better for me to start my judo journey as my base and then start tkd when I'm a judo first dan and then train judo and tkd concurrently. I already have two judo gis. It makes sense. And keep up with some boxing on the side. I like how in expensive judo and boxing are compared to most other arts these days as well.


That's my personal inclination, mostly because I find that the older a student is when starting, the harder time they have developing good falls (which reduce the toll throws take on the body). I have students who are around my age (2 years into their training) who cannot take 1/4 of the falls/impact I can take, and I don't think my falls are all that great. I just had the luxury of developing them earlier, and commit better to them.

There is a reasonable argument to be made that TKD is easier to start early, though from my very limited understanding of the issues there, I'd think you could offset much of that by stretching and learning a few basic kicks now, to prepare for that TKD later.


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## MA_Student (Nov 27, 2017)

BmillerWarrior said:


> Which art is best for practical self defense between the two? Also what arts blend well with both of these styles? I don't want to hear it's whichever art you love that works best... I want real answers and opinions. Thanks!


Well sorry then you dont want to hear the truth stop asking pointless questions and just go train and work it out for yourself


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## BmillerWarrior (Nov 27, 2017)

If my questions annoy you then stop replying to them. 


MA_Student said:


> Well sorry then you dont want to hear the truth stop asking pointless questions and just go train and work it out for yourself


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## BmillerWarrior (Nov 27, 2017)

I'm going to stick with Judo while I'm still somewhat young. 


gpseymour said:


> That's my personal inclination, mostly because I find that the older a student is when starting, the harder time they have developing good falls (which reduce the toll throws take on the body). I have students who are around my age (2 years into their training) who cannot take 1/4 of the falls/impact I can take, and I don't think my falls are all that great. I just had the luxury of developing them earlier, and commit better to them.
> 
> There is a reasonable argument to be made that TKD is easier to start early, though from my very limited understanding of the issues there, I'd think you could offset much of that by stretching and learning a few basic kicks now, to prepare for that TKD later.


going


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## MA_Student (Nov 27, 2017)

BmillerWarrior said:


> If my questions annoy you then stop replying to them.


Lol I couldn't care less either way. It's not my problem what you do but asking these questions is frankly pointless if I say judo and another says taekwondo what're you going to do then? Ask another question? Fact is opinions from strangers mean nothing you want to see what's best go to a class and find out for yourself it's literally the only way. Either do it or don't do it simple as that really


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## skribs (Nov 28, 2017)

The school with more focus on self defense and/or a better instructor.

Although I feel sport Judo will translate better to self defense than sport Taekwondo, if you have a good instructor in either you should be able to get good self defense from either.


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## lklawson (Nov 29, 2017)

Both have a reputation for blowing out knees, just for different reasons.


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## Paul_D (Nov 29, 2017)

BmillerWarrior said:


> I don't want to hear it's whichever art you love that works best... I want real answers and opinions.


Well unfortunately that is a real answer and opinion.  

The art you most enjoy is the one you are most likely to stick at, and therefore get good at.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Dec 1, 2017)

I choose judo its very effective


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## Balrog (Dec 6, 2017)

BmillerWarrior said:


> Which art is best for practical self defense between the two? Also what arts blend well with both of these styles? I don't want to hear it's whichever art you love that works best... I want real answers and opinions. Thanks!


The answer is simple.  It's the one that you have trained the most in.


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## Azulx (Dec 8, 2017)

Concealed carry


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## Juany118 (Dec 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You've asked (and been answered) the blending question in two other threads - why start it again?
> 
> As for which is best for SD, I think you'll get mixed answers on that, and it will depend a lot how you (and the school you join) train it. For me, Judo. Why? It's the first art I used in SD.



Tbh I think it you are talking self defense the best arts are ones that train the use of weapons (or weapons of opportunity) and those that have a fair amount of grappling. 

The weapons of opportunity one is largely self explanatory.  Force multipliers, when used legally of course, go a long way to balancing the scales against a person dedicated to committing a crime against your person.

The grappling one is a little more complicated but it comes down to this.  A largely striking art relies either on A LOT of training, where one might be able to reliably hit vital locations on the torso (liver shots as an example) the knees properly (to hyper extend) or "head hunting" (to successfully strike with enough force to incapacitate or other wise end the threat.). The human body is VERY resilient when it comes to the type of damage an empty hand can do.

On the other hand grappling, imo, while it does still take skill and training is more forgiving in terms of the techniques being effective.  Takedowns and locks, again just my opinion, are subjectively easier in terms of getting the desired result.  Have I "rung" someone's bell before?  Sure but I have had far more consistent success with either a baton or getting pain compliance due to properly applied locks and holds.


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## Juany118 (Dec 20, 2017)

Azulx said:


> Concealed carry



The only issue I have with this is that it is VERY limited, even in the US, from a legal point of view.  If someone is not armed you can be in a world of trouble if you go for a gun as your first line of defense.


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## oftheherd1 (Dec 23, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Tbh I think it you are talking self defense the best arts are ones that train the use of weapons (or weapons of opportunity) and those that have a fair amount of grappling.
> 
> The weapons of opportunity one is largely self explanatory.  Force multipliers, when used legally of course, go a long way to balancing the scales against a person dedicated to committing a crime against your person.
> 
> ...



I wasn't aware there was a martial art that trained in use of weapons of opportunity.  What arts do that to the exclusion of other techniques?  Sounds interestingly Bourne.

I can only go on my personal experience.  But as I was trained in TKD, those with sufficient skill, including speed and power, became quite formidable.  I understand that is not learned in a day.  But the OP did not ask for what art could be learned in a week or two.   I think you are not being fair with striking arts which teach in that old way.  Modern arts may not always do that from what I have seen.  But even those might still have some effectiveness. 

As to grappling arts, again, I can only go with the art I learned, which was the Hapkido I studied.  To be effective, one does have to be quick and accurate.  Mediocrity will get you in trouble.  You are constantly in training and learning new techniques.  Many times a new technique will require applications from an older technique.  If that older technique was not properly learned, the new one won't be either.  And while some techniques may allow one to power through, if you rely on power alone, you are subject to a resisting opponent being able to escape.


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## oftheherd1 (Dec 23, 2017)

As to the OP's question of whether Judo or TKD is better, really can't say, since I never studied Judo.  Having studied Hapkido, I have a bias towards that grappling art.  But I can't compare that to arts I have not studied.


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## oftheherd1 (Dec 23, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> The only issue I have with this is that it is VERY limited, even in the US, from a legal point of view.  If someone is not armed you can be in a world of trouble if you go for a gun as your first line of defense.



I agree but with the exception that I don't really consider "concealed carry" a martial art.  But should you be adamant that it is, then I would suggest it must be subject to the same rigorous long term training as other martial arts, along with verifiably agreed upon competition.  I don't think either of those really occur at this point within the general population.


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## Headhunter (Dec 23, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> The only issue I have with this is that it is VERY limited, even in the US, from a legal point of view.  If someone is not armed you can be in a world of trouble if you go for a gun as your first line of defense.


Agreed I've said it multiple times if you use a gun on someone you either kill them or seriously injure them. But with martial arts you can put them down without doing to much damage


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 23, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I agree but with the exception that I don't really consider "concealed carry" a martial art.  But should you be adamant that it is, then I would suggest it must be subject to the same rigorous long term training as other martial arts, along with verifiably agreed upon competition.  I don't think either of those really occur at this point within the general population.



In my experience, those of us who routinely carry do train regularly. And there are groups such as the International Practical Shooting Confederation that deal with competition and even issue ranks.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 23, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Agreed I've said it multiple times if you use a gun on someone you either kill them or seriously injure them. But with martial arts you can put them down without doing to much damage



Not true. Not true at all. In about 75% of encounters in which a gun is used, it isn't even fired. So it serves it's purpose of personal defense without inflicting any injury whatsoever.


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## Juany118 (Dec 23, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I wasn't aware there was a martial art that trained in use of weapons of opportunity.  What arts do that to the exclusion of other techniques?  Sounds interestingly Bourne.
> 
> I can only go on my personal experience.  But as I was trained in TKD, those with sufficient skill, including speed and power, became quite formidable.  I understand that is not learned in a day.  But the OP did not ask for what art could be learned in a week or two.   I think you are not being fair with striking arts which teach in that old way.  Modern arts may not always do that from what I have seen.  But even those might still have some effectiveness.
> 
> As to grappling arts, again, I can only go with the art I learned, which was the Hapkido I studied.  To be effective, one does have to be quick and accurate.  Mediocrity will get you in trouble.  You are constantly in training and learning new techniques.  Many times a new technique will require applications from an older technique.  If that older technique was not properly learned, the new one won't be either.  And while some techniques may allow one to power through, if you rely on power alone, you are subject to a resisting opponent being able to escape.


Filipino Martial Arts; Kali, Arni's, and Escrima, teach the use of palm sticks, bastons, and often flexible weapons.  These techniques are easily transferred to numerous weapons of opportunity and many instructors will point this out.

As for my comment on striking it's more about how resilient humans are.  For an exclusive striking art to work in a practical (meaning end it, or escape asap) I'm you need more training because you need to hit smaller, more easily protected, targets.  It still works btw, and I think striking with grappling is the best option as it provides flexibility (the WC I study has both, as does the FMA along with the weapons), I just think if you have to chose between JUST empty hand striking or JUST grappling, grappling is a better choice.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Filipino Martial Arts; Kali, Arni's, and Escrima, teach the use of palm sticks, bastons, and often flexible weapons.  These techniques are easily transferred to numerous weapons of opportunity and many instructors will point this out.
> 
> As for my comment on striking it's more about how resilient humans are.  For an exclusive striking art to work in a practical (meaning end it, or escape asap) I'm you need more training because you need to hit smaller, more easily protected, targets.  It still works btw, and I think striking with grappling is the best option as it provides flexibility (the WC I study has both, as does the FMA along with the weapons), I just think if you have to chose between JUST empty hand striking or JUST grappling, grappling is a better choice.


This (partly influenced by my foray into FMA) has been my adjustment to weapons training. I teach now from the standpoint of how to make use of weapons likely to be handy. So, I am building a curriculum around kubotan-type techniques, FMA-type stick techniques, and a bit of bo/jo work. At some point, I'll probably add in some measure of flexible weapons work, though that's more an intellectual pursuit, to me.


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## oftheherd1 (Dec 24, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> In my experience, those of us who routinely carry do train regularly. And there are groups such as the International Practical Shooting Confederation that deal with competition and even issue ranks.



That's an interesting point.  I know there are people to regularly train, and hang out with others who do.  I don't know what percentage people like you are of the population that carry weapons, legally or not legally.

Of course I don't know what the population percentage of those who study MA for defense is against those who study for other reasons than self defense, compared to those who don't study any form of self defense.

Interesting questions.


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## oftheherd1 (Dec 24, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Filipino Martial Arts; Kali, Arni's, and Escrima, teach the use of palm sticks, bastons, and often flexible weapons.  These techniques are easily transferred to numerous weapons of opportunity and many instructors will point this out.
> 
> As for my comment on striking it's more about how resilient humans are.  For an exclusive striking art to work in a practical (meaning end it, or escape asap) I'm you need more training because you need to hit smaller, more easily protected, targets.  It still works btw, and I think striking with grappling is the best option as it provides flexibility (the WC I study has both, as does the FMA along with the weapons), I just think if you have to chose between JUST empty hand striking or JUST grappling, grappling is a better choice.



OK, I can see that.  For some reason, I was conceptualizing an art that taught when threatened, to look for anything that could be used as a weapon in the environment your are in, such as kitchen knives, hammers, ball point pens, sticks, or whatever.  Somehow, I always envisioned the Filipino MA more as something taught from an assumption you would be carrying some kind of stick at all times.  My lack of knowledge I guess.

I don't know about every art, but in the TKD I studied, the goal was to inflict injury when we struck or kicked.  In the Hapkido I studied, we often used strikes, to initiate defense when that was appropriate, or more likely, as a follow up to a grapple that had left an opponent vulnerable to a strike or kick.


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## Juany118 (Dec 24, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> OK, I can see that.  For some reason, I was conceptualizing an art that taught when threatened, to look for anything that could be used as a weapon in the environment your are in, such as kitchen knives, hammers, ball point pens, sticks, or whatever.  Somehow, I always envisioned the Filipino MA more as something taught from an assumption you would be carrying some kind of stick at all times.  My lack of knowledge I guess.
> 
> I don't know about every art, but in the TKD I studied, the goal was to inflict injury when we struck or kicked.  In the Hapkido I studied, we often used strikes, to initiate defense when that was appropriate, or more likely, as a follow up to a grapple that had left an opponent vulnerable to a strike or kick.



On FMA yeah.  Here is actually a nice short video that explains things regarding weapons of opportunity in the FMA context.





As for the TKD issue, that applies to all striking arts.  What I mean is this.  To properly strike the knee, groin, head or vital points in the torso (like the liver and kidneys) for "quick drops", takes A LOT of training.  The human body can absorb surprising amazing amount of blunt impact damage.  I have struck people multiple times in "green zones" (non vital areas) with batons, full size mag lights etc with little effect due to adrenaline and the like (they definitely felt it afterwards though).  With grappling though, even if you can't get them in that perfect armbar that could be a joint break/dislocation, you can immobilize and get really good pain compliance with a shorter learning curve than a near exclusive striking game.

Primarily striking arts are good, don't get me wrong.  I am just saying if you are looking at it from a pure time efficiency point of view.  In my experience ones that are balanced or grappling biased get you "street effective" faster, not necessarily "better" over all.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 24, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> That's an interesting point.  I know there are people to regularly train, and hang out with others who do.  I don't know what percentage people like you are of the population that carry weapons, legally or not legally.
> 
> Of course I don't know what the population percentage of those who study MA for defense is against those who study for other reasons than self defense, compared to those who don't study any form of self defense.
> 
> Interesting questions.



I doubt there's any way to get numbers. But...

The gun owners I know fall into two basic groups.
Those who own guns and those who carry guns.
Of those who carry guns, the vast majority train regularly, and a few participate in competitions. 
Pretty much exactly the same way I'd describe the people I know who practice martial arts.
There are those who train for non-self defense (own guns) and those who train for defense (carry guns). Of those who train for self defense, the vast majority train regularly and a few participate in competitions.


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## oftheherd1 (Dec 25, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> I doubt there's any way to get numbers. But...
> 
> The gun owners I know fall into two basic groups.
> Those who own guns and those who carry guns.
> ...



When I have time I may try to look for numbers on that, but like you, I doubt there will be any verifiable or trustable numbers.  Most likely empirical such as yours would be more accurate.


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## oftheherd1 (Dec 25, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> On FMA yeah.  Here is actually a nice short video that explains things regarding weapons of opportunity in the FMA context.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I see what you are saying.  I am just not sure I completely agree.  But I have no doubt you have a lot more experience on the street using different strikes and techniques than I do.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 25, 2017)

BmillerWarrior said:


> I have had serious interest in Judo ...


You also need to train Judo in no jacket environment. You will need to find a new set of "contact points".


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 25, 2017)

BmillerWarrior said:


> Which art is best for practical self defense between the two? Also what arts blend well with both of these styles? I don't want to hear it's whichever art you love that works best... I want real answers and opinions. Thanks!



I would stick with striking for the following reasons (Which is not to say grappling skills should be ignored.) 
1.   Grappling poses issue if you tie up with someone and  they can access a bladed weapon when your vision can't really see that is happening.  Striking distance allows you to see what is going on with their hands. 
2.  Striking distance allows you more opportunity to perceive,  position yourself and respond to threats from other people. 
3. Striking distance and positioning may provide better opportunity for escape. 
4. Grappling with someone has a higher potential for ending up on the ground where you will be vulnerable to other attackers. 

As far as blending goes, there is lots of stuff branded as TKD. For SD stay away from any that exclude punching to the head since that is a frequent attack used by predators and may be an optimal offense as well. 

As has been stated above a lot depends on the school.  "Judo" was designed for sport but any good teacher will show all the "Illegal" stuff  you can use for SD.  Ju Jitsu as an art really doesn't have illegal  stuff except for competition rules.


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## drop bear (Dec 25, 2017)

Earl Weiss said:


> I would stick with striking for the following reasons (Which is not to say grappling skills should be ignored.)
> 1.   Grappling poses issue if you tie up with someone and  they can access a bladed weapon when your vision can't really see that is happening.  Striking distance allows you to see what is going on with their hands.
> 2.  Striking distance allows you more opportunity to perceive,  position yourself and respond to threats from other people.
> 3. Striking distance and positioning may provide better opportunity for escape.
> ...



I don't think a lot of those striking grappling distinctions are real things.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 25, 2017)

Instead of

- punching on your opponent's face,
- break his nose,
- pay his medical bill, and
- go to jail for it,

you can

- lock your opponent's arm,
- choke him,
- pin both of his arms against his body,
- head lock, under hook, over hook, ... and tie your opponent's body.
- ...

and ask him if he wants peace. If he says yes, you can let go and both of you will live happy ever after.


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## JR 137 (Dec 25, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Instead of
> 
> - punching on your opponent's face,
> - break his nose,
> ...


He says yes, he wants peace.  You let go, trusting a scum bag who tried to attack you; and you get sucker punched in the nose, jaw, or nuts.  Or worse.

Knock him out, break his arm, or whatever else tickles your fancy.  Just make sure he can’t come back at you.

Dojo kun:
We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak. Here, in the streets, in competition. A man confronts you, he is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy.


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## Juany118 (Dec 27, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> He says yes, he wants peace.  You let go, trusting a scum bag who tried to attack you; and you get sucker punched in the nose, jaw, or nuts.  Or worse.
> 
> Knock him out, break his arm, or whatever else tickles your fancy.  Just make sure he can’t come back at you.
> 
> ...


Self defense can't always be about that, there will always be a bigger stronger guy who for all your striking will look at you and laugh.  So it's not about throwing the guy down and letting go, trusting they will let you go.  It's about not being trapped by pride and when you get that guy down having the self awareness use the opening you created and know it is "time to run away.". If that isn't an option, proper leverage overcomes strength.  So you hold on, keeping them restrained, even if you can break/main them, until the boys in blue show up.


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## RealityCheck (Dec 28, 2017)

I wouldn't choose either of the two options, but if I have to, I would say Judo.

TKD, although it does have some pros (speed, flexibility), it is primarily based on point sparring, and even when that is not the case, it relies heavily on techniques that you would not be able to use if restricted to an enclosed space (such as a train carriage or an elevator). 

Judo is able to be used in enclosed spaces and has a lot of techniques that don't require a large amount of fine motor skills to pull off. 

That being said - my preference is to get a solid base in MMA, and then move on to combatives in order to learn how to deal with the pre and post-conflict phases of the altercation, as well as weapons, multiple attackers etc.


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## Headhunter (Dec 28, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Instead of
> 
> - punching on your opponent's face,
> - break his nose,
> ...


And what's stopping him attacking you again once you let go of him


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 28, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> And what's stopping him attacking you again once you let go of him


If he wants to go to hell, you can always help him.


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## drop bear (Dec 28, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> And what's stopping him attacking you again once you let go of him



Self preservation hopefully.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 28, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Self preservation hopefully.


"Hopefully" is one of those correct answers I don't like. I doubt anyone does. But they're still correct.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 28, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> And what's stopping him attacking you again once you let go of him


I choked someone from behind on the street in Hawaii. When that guy said, "Please don't kill me." I let go my choke. He ran away as fast as a rabbit.


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## drop bear (Dec 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "Hopefully" is one of those correct answers I don't like. I doubt anyone does. But they're still correct.



There is a classic case of a guy getting powned and going for a double dip and getting powned worse.






But most of us are not monsters or idiots and sometimes it is worth the risk.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 28, 2017)

drop bear said:


> There is a classic case of a guy getting powned and going for a double dip and getting powned worse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This clip shows if you can take your opponent down once, you can take him down again.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This clip shows if you can take your opponent down once, you can take him down again.


Hopefully.


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## Anarax (Dec 30, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Self defense can't always be about that, there will always be a bigger stronger guy who for all your striking will look at you and laugh.  So it's not about throwing the guy down and letting go, trusting they will let you go.  It's about not being trapped by pride and when you get that guy down having the self awareness use the opening you created and know it is "time to run away.". If that isn't an option, proper leverage overcomes strength.  So you hold on, keeping them restrained, even if you can break/main them, until the boys in blue show up.



I somewhat agree and disagree with this. There is an entire spectrum of situations we can find ourselves in, from someone placing their hand on us to a fully committed attacker. There are also other factors such as where we are, when it happens and who(loved ones, friends, etc) is with us.

There have been numerous instances where the instigator was overwhelmed by the defender, defender backs off, instigator follows defender seeking revenge. Pride is a two way street, the instigator's pride is hurt and they want to try and harm you again to heal their wounded pride. It depends entirely on the situation at hand, we must assess and determine what is the appropriate amount of force. Unfortunately, this type of critical thinking is lacking in many martial arts schools today.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I somewhat agree and disagree with this. There is an entire spectrum of situations we can find ourselves in, from someone placing their hand on us to a fully committed attacker. There are also other factors such as where we are, when it happens and who(loved ones, friends, etc) is with us.
> 
> There have been numerous instances where the instigator was overwhelmed by the defender, defender backs off, instigator follows defender seeking revenge. Pride is a two way street, the instigator's pride is hurt and they want to try and harm you again to heal their wounded pride. It depends entirely on the situation at hand, we must assess and determine what is the appropriate amount of force. Unfortunately, this type of critical thinking is lacking in many martial arts schools today.


I think it can only really be accurately covered in vague terms. There are too many variations in situation, and too many unknowns.


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## Juany118 (Dec 31, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think it can only really be accurately covered in vague terms. There are too many variations in situation, and too many unknowns.




Exactly.  My main point was to explain how, imo, many people allow pride to get in the way of self defense.  They think it's about "winning" when it's not.  Self defense is about survival and survival has to be devoid of pride.  It's about being, essentially, without expectation on the precise method that gets you to the end goal, which is to simply walk away with minimal injury.


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## geezer (Jan 1, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Exactly.  My main point was to explain how, imo, many people allow pride to get in the way of self defense.  They think it's about "winning" when it's not.  Self defense is about survival and survival has to be devoid of pride.  It's about being, essentially, without expectation on the precise method that gets you to the end goal, which is to simply walk away with minimal injury.



That might work for Mr. Spock, but I've met few, if any humans who can fully eliminate pride, anger and fear from the self-defense equation. Training can definitely help, but it's a problem even among professionals. We may know better, but when stuff goes down we tend to act and react like the animals we are. Not like monsters, but like _human _animals.


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## Juany118 (Jan 1, 2018)

geezer said:


> That might work for Mr. Spock, but I've met few, if any humans who can fully eliminate pride, anger and fear from the self-defense equation. Training can definitely help, but it's a problem even among professionals. We may know better, but when stuff goes down we tend to act and react like the animals we are. Not like monsters, but like _human _animals.



Oh anger and fear will always be there.  You have to actively keep a lid on those with training, because that's all hormones.  Pride I think is easier though because that is all "in your head" so to speak.


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## GreatUniter (Jan 30, 2018)

If it's kodokan judo, then that's the real deal (with all the goshin jutsu stuff). If it's sport judo, then forget about self defense, taekwondo is better.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> If it's kodokan judo, then that's the real deal (with all the goshin jutsu stuff). If it's sport judo, then forget about self defense, taekwondo is better.



There is an interesting concept from a guy called kit dale where he suggests timing is the key rather than technique.

Now I don't agree with that to that extent but the ability to apply moves in real timing is absolutely vital.

And that is what sport does. It gives you the core elements of what happens in a fight.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 31, 2018)

drop bear said:


> he suggests timing is the key rather than technique.


There are techniques that

- require timing (such as foot sweep, ...).
- does not require timing (such as single leg, bear hug, head lock, ...).

After you have obtained your opponent's leading leg in your arm, whether you want to take him down right at that moment, or 1 second later won't make that much difference.


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## GreatUniter (Jan 31, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There is an interesting concept from a guy called kit dale where he suggests timing is the key rather than technique.
> 
> Now I don't agree with that to that extent but the* ability to apply moves in real timing is absolutely vital.
> 
> And that is what sport does. It gives you the core elements of what happens in a fight.*



I agree on that. Timing in general is vital for winning. But also it is true that the way you train a martial art is the way that you use it outside your gym/dojo. Combat sports are limited with sets of rules and we know that more and more "teachers" nowadays are sport oriented and the martial way is facing heavy loses. What you do in the ring to win, doesn't apply on the streets. And I'm sure You know that a street fight usually lasts mere seconds in general if we talk about pure fistfighting without verbal fights (and a ring fight lasts up to 3 minutes in general).


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> I agree on that. Timing in general is vital for winning. But also it is true that the way you train a martial art is the way that you use it outside your gym/dojo. Combat sports are limited with sets of rules and we know that more and more "teachers" nowadays are sport oriented and the martial way is facing heavy loses. What you do in the ring to win, doesn't apply on the streets. And I'm sure You know that a street fight usually lasts mere seconds in general if we talk about pure fistfighting without verbal fights (and a ring fight lasts up to 3 minutes in general).



Exactly. Each ring fight is like a hundred street fights back to back. And you are forced to limit yourself in order to win it.

This forces you to develop the important elements of fighting. Rather than the less important.

People place so much emphasis on technique. Here is Mohammed Ali on the bag.





A boxing coach would tell you his technique is incorrect. But he managed to use that technique to defeat and incapacitate world class strikers.

There are so many important elements to winning fights that are often not adressed in martial arts. Martial means you have to fight people.

Here is Tony Danza incapacitating a guy using only punches through padded gloves in 40 odd seconds.






Imagine he was hitting the guy bare knuckle. Fight would have ended in 10. And again not won through technique in its classical sense.


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## wab25 (Jan 31, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are techniques that
> 
> - require timing (such as foot sweep, ...).
> - does not require timing (such as single leg, bear hug, head lock, ...).
> ...


Since we are talking about self defense, I have to disagree here. How many times have you seen an MMA fighter have his leg wrapped up, then while the guy is trying to take him down, the first guy grabs the fences and prevents the takedown? Sure, he gets slapped by the ref, but the take down is lost. Had the guy not allowed a second or two, he may have completed the take down.

In self defense, we already talked about weapons of opportunity. If you give him that second... what can he grab? Is there a knife in his pocket that he can deploy, while you give him that second? If you dumped him right away, you may have a better shot at preventing him from deploying it. If you grab his leg and wait 1 second, his leg may become very slippery with your blood running all over it.

My point is that timing is more important out of the ring than it is in the ring.


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## GreatUniter (Jan 31, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Exactly. Each ring fight is like a hundred street fights back to back. And you are forced to limit yourself in order to win it.
> 
> This forces you to develop the important elements of fighting. Rather than the less important.
> 
> ...



Yes, but those two are old school masters in their own rights. Those days existed real masters of martial arts. Their training was different. They followed martial principles. Today we have McDojos everywhere, numbers of real masters are decreasing. There are people that actually believe in no - touch - knockdown - yellow - bamboo - chi - magic bs. Even if we are in development like human race. There are lot of quasi - instructors that when teach, they don't get out from a template and often don't go out from set of rules (exceptions still exist).


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## GreatUniter (Jan 31, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Since we are talking about self defense, I have to disagree here. How many times have you seen an MMA fighter have his leg wrapped up, then while the guy is trying to take him down, the first guy grabs the fences and prevents the takedown? Sure, he gets slapped by the ref, but the take down is lost. Had the guy not allowed a second or two, he may have completed the take down.
> 
> In self defense, we already talked about weapons of opportunity. If you give him that second... what can he grab? Is there a knife in his pocket that he can deploy, while you give him that second? If you dumped him right away, you may have a better shot at preventing him from deploying it. If you grab his leg and wait 1 second, his leg may become very slippery with your blood running all over it.
> 
> My point is that timing is more important out of the ring than it is in the ring.



Absolutely right. When there is real, street scenario you use everything at your disposal if it means that you can save your life (or your loved ones). If you miss the chance, sometimes it can lead to unforgivable mistakes that can cost your life. That's why I think that combat sport martial arts cannot help you in real life situations against multiple attackers or street weapons if you don't train them right, outside of those set of rules or templates.


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## JR 137 (Jan 31, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> If it's kodokan judo, then that's the real deal (with all the goshin jutsu stuff). If it's sport judo, then forget about self defense, taekwondo is better.


So a “sport” Judo throw than quickly transitions into a “sport” Judo choke only works in competition?  Competitors will allow the throw and subsequent choke, whereas a street attacker won’t?

If anything it’s the other way around - a competitor has thrown that combo countless times in training and fine tuned it to avoid counters.  And if his training partners are nice and don’t resist very much, his opponents surely will resist at 100%.  And the competitor uses it against competitors he often doesn’t know and don’t know him instead of the same several dozen sparring partners at the dojo.  

What’s so realistic about Judo?  For one, the range they fight out of.  Second: throws, chokes, and submissions don’t leave much to the imagination.

A judo competitor may have less available options than a “SD” judoka, but one could make the argument that the competitor focuses on less stuff, thereby fine tuning it more.  

I’m not a judoka and even I know this.


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## GreatUniter (Jan 31, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> So a “sport” Judo throw than quickly transitions into a “sport” Judo choke only works in competition?  Competitors will allow the throw and subsequent choke, whereas a street attacker won’t?
> 
> If anything it’s the other way around - a competitor has thrown that combo countless times in training and fine tuned it to avoid counters.  And if his training partners are nice and don’t resist very much, his opponents surely will resist at 100%.  And the competitor uses it against competitors he often doesn’t know and don’t know him instead of the same several dozen sparring partners at the dojo.
> 
> ...



But on judo competition, a competitor doesn't take punch to the face (or kick, knee etc.). On training, sport's judo doesn't prepare a practitioner for real self defense, only for competitions (there are few exceptions). If a judoka doesn't train for the real fight with real resistance (not grappling resistance) then what's the point of training a martial art for self defense? It's true that there are different goals for martial arts practitioners why they start to train, but self defense is more than modern so - called sport combat.


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## JR 137 (Jan 31, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> But on judo competition, a competitor doesn't take punch to the face (or kick, knee etc.). On training, sport's judo doesn't prepare a practitioner for real self defense, only for competitions (there are few exceptions). If a judoka doesn't train for the real fight with real resistance (not grappling resistance) then what's the point of training a martial art for self defense? It's true that there are different goals for martial arts practitioners why they start to train, but self defense is more than modern so - called sport combat.


A competent judoka should be able to close the distance and initiate the proper clinch effectively.  Will he get hit on his way in and get KOed?  Possibly.  But boxers who solely train punching (and everything associated with punching) also get caught.  TKDers who train a lot of kicking get kicked.  Same for everyone.

The serious competitor is generally going to be in far better shape, have far better reflexes, far better timing, etc. than the average Joe.  Competitive judoka, wrestler, BJJer, etc. has a clear advantage over most untrained people.  Just because none of them traditionally train to strike and get hit with strikes doesn’t outweigh this.  I wrestled from 3rd grade all the way through high school.  I never formally trained any striking until a few years after I was done.  None of that mattered much when I got into real fights.  I knew how to close the distance, avoid getting hit, and throw my opponent on the ground and keep him there while I did whatever I wanted to do.  I wasn’t the baddest fighter out there by any means, but unless I fought someone who had more substantial training and/or more sheer mental toughness and fighting experience than I did, I wasn’t going to be a pushover by any means.

I’ve found that the proper mindset in a fight is a significant part of the battle.  Taking a hit and keep going will carry you a long way.  Any competitor in any martial/combat sport worth anything has learned this.  Boxing, wrestling, Judo, TKD, BJJ, etc.; doesn’t matter in this regard.  If you’re not going to fold once you feel pain, or not going to crawl up into the fetal position once someone scares you a little bit, you’ve got a pretty good chance.  Any serious competitor has moved past that.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 31, 2018)

wab25 said:


> If you give him that second... what can he grab?


When you get hold of your opponent's leading leg, you can

1. push his upper body down.
2. lift his leg over your shoulder.
3. pick his whole body up.
4. pick his whole body up, rotate his body in the air.
5. press his neck down, spin his body.
6. sweep his standing leg.
7. hook his standing leg.
8. horse back kick his standing leg.
9. lock his leg between your legs, press his upper leg down.
10. ...

to throw him.

How to finish your "single leg" depends on your opponent's respond. If your opponent's body is

- leaning back, you hook his standing leg and throw him backward.
- leaning forward, you sweep his standing leg and throw him forward.
- sinking down, you press his shoulder and throw him down.
- raising up, you pick up his body and throw him behind you.
- ...

You may need that 1 second to detect your opponent's intention so you are not using force against force. This may still involve with timing. But the timing is for the next move and not for the current move.


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## GreatUniter (Feb 1, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> A competent judoka should be able to close the distance and initiate the proper clinch effectively.  Will he get hit on his way in and get KOed?  Possibly.  But boxers who solely train punching (and everything associated with punching) also get caught.  TKDers who train a lot of kicking get kicked.  Same for everyone.
> 
> *The serious competitor is generally going to be in far better shape, have far better reflexes, far better timing, etc. than the average Joe.*  Competitive judoka, wrestler, BJJer, etc. has a clear advantage over most untrained people.  Just because none of them traditionally train to strike and get hit with strikes doesn’t outweigh this.  I wrestled from 3rd grade all the way through high school.  I never formally trained any striking until a few years after I was done.  None of that mattered much when I got into real fights.  *I knew how to close the distance, avoid getting hit, and throw my opponent on the ground and keep him there while I did whatever I wanted to do.*  I wasn’t the baddest fighter out there by any means, but unless I fought someone who had more substantial training and/or more sheer mental toughness and fighting experience than I did, I wasn’t going to be a pushover by any means.
> 
> *I’ve found that the proper mindset in a fight is a significant part of the battle. * *Taking a hit and keep going will carry you a long way.  Any competitor in any martial/combat sport worth anything has learned this.* * Boxing, wrestling, Judo, TKD, BJJ, etc.; doesn’t matter in this regard.  If you’re not going to fold once you feel pain, or not going to crawl up into the fetal position once someone scares you a little bit, you’ve got a pretty good chance.*  Any serious competitor has moved past that.



I don't know for you, but I have seen a boxer, mma fighter and karate competitor (that have some experience in competitions), all were beaten by "an average Joe". Probably because they wasn't prepared for street fights or they had not the proper mindset (and yes, those three are my friends and at that time had 3+ years of fighting experience). In my younger days, I also trained wrestling in amateur gym, although not so seriously at that time. The teacher there was nice, he knew some advanced techniques and was a smooth talker (he can inspire you to think that you are invincible). I was really into wrestling, every day trained with bigger and stronger opponents, even though I didn't compete. And guess what? Once, there was a street fight, I was attacked by two smaller opponents (older in age, smaller by body - construction) that had no experience in martial arts, but in street fights and I got beaten only because they were more agile than me. All that I had learned, I couldn't use at that time, only evasion (still useless because I got beaten). After that, I started to learn basic karate moves (kicks, punches, blocks and stances) without katas and when I got into fights after that, I usually used karate moves that I had learned + wrestling evasion and never lost a fight on the streets (one on one unarmed, one on two or three unarmed, but still got beaten by 5 or more on the streets at that time). At that time I had proper body training, hard body that can take several good hits.

 My current teachers always say: "never underestimate a person in a fight, you don't know how capable is he, even if he is untrained, because you don't know his intention, his goal and for what he is fighting, because human mind is the best human weapon". I have seen really experienced martial artists (outside from those three) that had been beaten by experienced street fighters without proper martial arts training. I told before, I will again now, it's rarity in modern days to find proper teachers, because today's martial arts are raped. Even mma, bjj, boxing, judo etc. are no longer what they used to be, mainly because there are really few proper teachers and masters around the world. Almost all martial arts nowadays are for business and teachers are finding ways of making money or are youtube learners, book readers and God - knows - from where they buy licenses. Numbers of real masters are decreasing. It's a shame. In my opinion, nowadays there are even a fewer people (not teachers) that train properly, even train the mind for actual fight (generally there are more focus on competitions and winning).


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## JR 137 (Feb 1, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> I don't know for you, but I have seen a boxer, mma fighter and karate competitor (that have some experience in competitions), all were beaten by "an average Joe". Probably because they wasn't prepared for street fights or they had not the proper mindset (and yes, those three are my friends and at that time had 3+ years of fighting experience). In my younger days, I also trained wrestling in amateur gym, although not so seriously at that time. The teacher there was nice, he knew some advanced techniques and was a smooth talker (he can inspire you to think that you are invincible). I was really into wrestling, every day trained with bigger and stronger opponents, even though I didn't compete. And guess what? Once, there was a street fight, I was attacked by two smaller opponents (older in age, smaller by body - construction) that had no experience in martial arts, but in street fights and I got beaten only because they were more agile than me. All that I had learned, I couldn't use at that time, only evasion (still useless because I got beaten). After that, I started to learn basic karate moves (kicks, punches, blocks and stances) without katas and when I got into fights after that, I usually used karate moves that I had learned + wrestling evasion and never lost a fight on the streets (one on one unarmed, one on two or three unarmed, but still got beaten by 5 or more on the streets at that time). At that time I had proper body training, hard body that can take several good hits.
> 
> My current teachers always say: "never underestimate a person in a fight, you don't know how capable is he, even if he is untrained, because you don't know his intention, his goal and for what he is fighting, because human mind is the best human weapon". I have seen really experienced martial artists (outside from those three) that had been beaten by experienced street fighters without proper martial arts training. I told before, I will again now, it's rarity in modern days to find proper teachers, because today's martial arts are raped. Even mma, bjj, boxing, judo etc. are no longer what they used to be, mainly because there are really few proper teachers and masters around the world. Almost all martial arts nowadays are for business and teachers are finding ways of making money or are youtube learners, book readers and God - knows - from where they buy licenses. Numbers of real masters are decreasing. It's a shame. In my opinion, nowadays there are even a fewer people (not teachers) that train properly, even train the mind for actual fight (generally there are more focus on competitions and winning).


There’s nothing magical out there that’s going to make you invincible.  After getting KOed by a bum in the ring one night, Tommy Morrison had a perfect quote in my mind (paraphrased) “If you give a 200 lb guy a clean shot at your head, he’s going to knock you out.  It doesn’t matter how much better you are than him.”  That’s how fighting goes; one mistake will make all the difference.  We all make mistakes.  No training out there nor amount of training will make us perfect fighters.  Just because a trained fighter lost a street fight to an average Joe doesn’t negate their training.  And how do we know for a fact that that person doesn’t have any training?

No training is going to turn anyone into a fighting machine that’ll never get beat.  All it’ll do is improve the odds.  No one is impervious to that one lucky punch that’s timed and landed right.  That’s a good thing and a bad thing all at once.

As far as teachers out there that aren’t teaching how to actually fight goes, sure, there’s plenty of them out there.  But there’s plenty who aren’t either.  To say all MA teachers have lost touch with the reality of fighting is nonsense.  There’s plenty of good teachers teaching good stuff.  You just have to look around, just like everything else.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There is an interesting concept from a guy called kit dale where he suggests timing is the key rather than technique.
> 
> Now I don't agree with that to that extent but the ability to apply moves in real timing is absolutely vital.
> 
> And that is what sport does. It gives you the core elements of what happens in a fight.


I've had disputes with folks about how "aiki" works, on that same element. I think it's almost entirely about timing (and a very tight timing - the reason aiki is so hard to find in real encounters and sport). So, I'm kind of with you on this one. Timing is a big component, but it pairs with technique (the concept of technique, rather than individual, discrete techniques). When a technique fails in application, it's usually either technical (positioning is off or some such) or timing (too early/late). I'm lumping "not available" (trying to force a technique in where it doesn't really apply) in with technical issues, though it could be its own third reason.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are techniques that
> 
> - require timing (such as foot sweep, ...).
> - does not require timing (such as single leg, bear hug, head lock, ...).
> ...


I'd argue anything where you're going to do something to someone else requires some level of timing, unless you're going to overpower them by main force. If you come in for a single-leg, but miss the timing, you'll just run into his weight, or be too early and not be able to manipulate the leg.

EDIT: To clarify, the timing in single-leg is how you get the leg. There's a much bigger window (arguably no timing issue) once you have it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> I agree on that. Timing in general is vital for winning. But also it is true that the way you train a martial art is the way that you use it outside your gym/dojo. Combat sports are limited with sets of rules and we know that more and more "teachers" nowadays are sport oriented and the martial way is facing heavy loses. What you do in the ring to win, doesn't apply on the streets. And I'm sure You know that a street fight usually lasts mere seconds in general if we talk about pure fistfighting without verbal fights (and a ring fight lasts up to 3 minutes in general).


Much of what is done in the ring to win is quite applicable in the street. There are differences, and reasons I prefer training for "street", but someone with MMA training is actually getting some good tools for self-defense.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> Yes, but those two are old school masters in their own rights. Those days existed real masters of martial arts. Their training was different. They followed martial principles. Today we have McDojos everywhere, numbers of real masters are decreasing. There are people that actually believe in no - touch - knockdown - yellow - bamboo - chi - magic bs. Even if we are in development like human race. There are lot of quasi - instructors that when teach, they don't get out from a template and often don't go out from set of rules (exceptions still exist).


We are more aware of charlatans than we used to be (easier access to media). The teachers of old were not all magical geniuses (though there were surely some geniuses among them). We should reverence the knowledge they pass along, while knowing they were all fallible, and in some cases simply not as well informed as we are today.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> But on judo competition, a competitor doesn't take punch to the face (or kick, knee etc.). On training, sport's judo doesn't prepare a practitioner for real self defense, only for competitions (there are few exceptions). If a judoka doesn't train for the real fight with real resistance (not grappling resistance) then what's the point of training a martial art for self defense? It's true that there are different goals for martial arts practitioners why they start to train, but self defense is more than modern so - called sport combat.


I disagree almost entirely. All of my early self-defense usage came from sport Judo. And I never even competed - just trained for competition (it was what the instructor taught), with resistance.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> I don't know for you, but I have seen a boxer, mma fighter and karate competitor (that have some experience in competitions), all were beaten by "an average Joe". Probably because they wasn't prepared for street fights or they had not the proper mindset (and yes, those three are my friends and at that time had 3+ years of fighting experience). In my younger days, I also trained wrestling in amateur gym, although not so seriously at that time. The teacher there was nice, he knew some advanced techniques and was a smooth talker (he can inspire you to think that you are invincible). I was really into wrestling, every day trained with bigger and stronger opponents, even though I didn't compete. And guess what? Once, there was a street fight, I was attacked by two smaller opponents (older in age, smaller by body - construction) that had no experience in martial arts, but in street fights and I got beaten only because they were more agile than me. All that I had learned, I couldn't use at that time, only evasion (still useless because I got beaten). After that, I started to learn basic karate moves (kicks, punches, blocks and stances) without katas and when I got into fights after that, I usually used karate moves that I had learned + wrestling evasion and never lost a fight on the streets (one on one unarmed, one on two or three unarmed, but still got beaten by 5 or more on the streets at that time). At that time I had proper body training, hard body that can take several good hits.


You're using confirmation bias on this. I can find you examples of folks who trained for self-defense who were taken down by untrained folks, too. You're comparing a somewhat-trained single-discipline fighter to a much more extensively trained multi-discipline fighter (both of them you). Good training practices matter more than whether it's SD or sport. I'll go so far as to say many sport competitors are actually better trained for SD (because they train "live") than many SD folks. And I'm a SD folk, saying this.



> My current teachers always say: "never underestimate a person in a fight, you don't know how capable is he, even if he is untrained, because you don't know his intention, his goal and for what he is fighting, because human mind is the best human weapon". I have seen really experienced martial artists (outside from those three) that had been beaten by experienced street fighters without proper martial arts training. I told before, I will again now, it's rarity in modern days to find proper teachers, because today's martial arts are raped. Even mma, bjj, boxing, judo etc. are no longer what they used to be, mainly because there are really few proper teachers and masters around the world. Almost all martial arts nowadays are for business and teachers are finding ways of making money or are youtube learners, book readers and God - knows - from where they buy licenses. Numbers of real masters are decreasing. It's a shame. In my opinion, nowadays there are even a fewer people (not teachers) that train properly, even train the mind for actual fight (generally there are more focus on competitions and winning).



With that latter point you are correct, though I'll challenge your wording. Many people don't train as hard as was done in the past. Most of the folks I've trained with had jobs they couldn't afford to be away from for injuries. Many were desk jockeys, so weren't physically tough coming in, so chose softer training. However, don't forget that "properly" depends upon your goals. Most folks aren't looking to become dangerous fighting masters, so their training intensity may be entirely proper to their personal aims.


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## lklawson (Feb 1, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> But on judo competition, a competitor doesn't take punch to the face (or kick, knee etc.).


I can't tell you how many times I've taken an elbow to the face or similar while during randori in Judo.  Fat lips and bloody noses aren't exactly unheard of.



> On training, sport's judo doesn't prepare a practitioner for real self defense, only for competitions (there are few exceptions). If a judoka doesn't train for the real fight with real resistance (not grappling resistance) then what's the point of training a martial art for self defense? It's true that there are different goals for martial arts practitioners why they start to train, but self defense is more than modern so - called sport combat.


What's your experience with Judo?  I'm curious about how your perspective is formed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## GreatUniter (Feb 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> *You're using confirmation bias on this. I can find you examples of folks who trained for self-defense who were taken down by untrained folks, too. You're comparing a somewhat-trained single-discipline fighter to a much more extensively trained multi-discipline fighter (both of them you). Good training practices matter more than whether it's SD or sport. I'll go so far as to say many sport competitors are actually better trained for SD (because they train "live") than many SD folks. And I'm a SD folk, saying this.*
> 
> 
> 
> With that latter point you are correct, though I'll challenge your wording. Many people don't train as hard as was done in the past. Most of the folks I've trained with had jobs they couldn't afford to be away from for injuries. Many were desk jockeys, so weren't physically tough coming in, so chose softer training. However, don't forget that "properly" depends upon your goals. *Most folks aren't looking to become dangerous fighting masters*, so their training intensity may be entirely proper to their personal aims.



That's why I'm here and want to see other perspectives. I have met and friendly sparred with many so - called teachers of sports martial arts in my country, that's why I'm in doubt of their effectiveness. I'm aware of that that there is many real competitors with exceptional MA skills out there. Personally, I don't believe in sports martial arts because there are a lot of modifications (at least in my country), sets of rules and weight classes. That's why I take Kodokan judo as example because there are no weight classes that I'm aware of (done some research, feel free to prove me wrong). 

Don't get me wrong, I joined this forum to learn something from people that are dedicated to martial arts and to get off any bias that I have. My bias are not towards martial arts because I know that there are not bad martial arts, but bad martial artists and teachers and I don't like where modern martial art sports are going (like I said before, business). 

So, feel free to prove me wrong, I want to learn something new from more dedicated people here. I'm glad that there are people with vast experience in martial arts.


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## GreatUniter (Feb 1, 2018)

lklawson said:


> I can't tell you how many times I've taken an elbow to the face or similar while during randori in Judo.  Fat lips and bloody noses aren't exactly unheard of.
> 
> What's your experience with Judo?  I'm curious about how your perspective is formed.
> 
> ...




I really don't have training experience in judo, because I have never trained it. What I did is, friendly sparring with people that train it for long time, without rules (with people that are heavier and stronger than me). I wanted to test my skills and principles that I have been taught against someone from different school of martial arts to see if they are working. What I saw was really poor performance from people that are even assistants to judo teachers here (still didn't have sparring with someone outside my country). That's why I want to practice against judo, bjj, jujutsu, aikido or real aikido, because they are similar with what I practice now: aikido. I learn and shape my thoughts by experience, and from what I saw in my life, sport's judo doesn't work on streets, but it doesn't mean that art is bad, but the practitioners and the way it's trained. There are guys that really want to learn martial arts, but lot of teachers don't know what they really teach (like I said, there are plenty of good teachers still around, but still hard to find). That's why I have bias for sports judo, but the main reasons are practitioners and modern teachers, not art itself (except if it's yellow bamboo, chi magic etc.). 

Like I said, I want to learn more about martial arts, that's why I'm here. There are things and thoughts that need to be reshaped. I'm glad if you can help me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> That's why I'm here and want to see other perspectives. I have met and friendly sparred with many so - called teachers of sports martial arts in my country, that's why I'm in doubt of their effectiveness. I'm aware of that that there is many real competitors with exceptional MA skills out there. Personally, I don't believe in sports martial arts because there are a lot of modifications (at least in my country), sets of rules and weight classes. That's why I take Kodokan judo as example because there are no weight classes that I'm aware of (done some research, feel free to prove me wrong).
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I joined this forum to learn something from people that are dedicated to martial arts and to get off any bias that I have. My bias are not towards martial arts because I know that there are not bad martial arts, but bad martial artists and teachers and I don't like where modern martial art sports are going (like I said before, business).
> 
> So, feel free to prove me wrong, I want to learn something new from more dedicated people here. I'm glad that there are people with vast experience in martial arts.


It depends what kind of sparring you do, and what their training is like. If someone trains exclusively for light-contact competition (tap-touch) and you engage them with hard contact, they likely won't do well. If they train exclusively for hard-contact sparring, they'll do well with anything that vaguely resembles their ruleset. If they train for light-contact competition, but use hard-contact sparring as part of their overall training, they'll do well with anything that vaguely resembles their ruleset. If you take someone who trains exclusively for striking (competition or SD) and go in with takedowns, they'll struggle unless they outclass you. My experience is that someone who trains for hard contact and trains with resistance will be a more formidable opponent in sparring with significant contact. That combination is more likely to exist in sport than in SD training in my experience. I know instructors in grappling-based SD programs who have never done strikes-based sparring, and even some who have never faced actual full resistance (a partner using their skills to try to defeat their techniques). I would expect a well-trained MMA amateur to do better in self-defense than those instructors.

How people train is more important. The focus of the training (sport or SD) matters, as well, but it matters less than the use of good "live" (resisted) training methods.


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## GreatUniter (Feb 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It depends what kind of sparring you do, and what their training is like. If someone trains exclusively for light-contact competition (tap-touch) and you engage them with hard contact, they likely won't do well. If they train exclusively for hard-contact sparring, they'll do well with anything that vaguely resembles their ruleset. If they train for light-contact competition, but use hard-contact sparring as part of their overall training, they'll do well with anything that vaguely resembles their ruleset. If you take someone who trains exclusively for striking (competition or SD) and go in with takedowns, they'll struggle unless they outclass you. My experience is that someone who trains for hard contact and trains with resistance will be a more formidable opponent in sparring with significant contact. That combination is more likely to exist in sport than in SD training in my experience. I know instructors in grappling-based SD programs who have never done strikes-based sparring, and even some who have never faced actual full resistance (a partner using their skills to try to defeat their techniques). I would expect a well-trained MMA amateur to do better in self-defense than those instructors.
> 
> How people train is more important. The focus of the training (sport or SD) matters, as well, but it matters less than the use of good "live" (resisted) training methods.



I like sparring differently (people are not always in mood for hard sparring). Light contact, hard contact, depends on what my sparring partner is asking. Never went above our deal at the time. And we did a lot of resistance (sometimes full, sometimes not) sparring. I'm especially glad when I train with resistance so as to see where I'm with my training, because there are techniques that won't work on some people. But it doesn't mean that if one technique doesn't work, that another won't. And yes, we did a lot of sparring outside the templates (example: mixed judo techniques with striking etc.). I want to upgrade my way of thinking outside what I do. 

And, thank you for your view on this matter. It's really an eye - opener.


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## lklawson (Feb 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It depends what kind of sparring you do, and what their training is like. If someone trains exclusively for light-contact competition (tap-touch) and you engage them with hard contact, they likely won't do well. If they train exclusively for hard-contact sparring, they'll do well with anything that vaguely resembles their ruleset. If they train for light-contact competition, but use hard-contact sparring as part of their overall training, they'll do well with anything that vaguely resembles their ruleset. If you take someone who trains exclusively for striking (competition or SD) and go in with takedowns, they'll struggle unless they outclass you. My experience is that someone who trains for hard contact and trains with resistance will be a more formidable opponent in sparring with significant contact. That combination is more likely to exist in sport than in SD training in my experience. I know instructors in grappling-based SD programs who have never done strikes-based sparring, and even some who have never faced actual full resistance (a partner using their skills to try to defeat their techniques). I would expect a well-trained MMA amateur to do better in self-defense than those instructors.


OK



> How people train is more important. The focus of the training (sport or SD) matters, as well, but it matters less than the use of good "live" (resisted) training methods.


That's one of the points of "sport"


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 1, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> I really don't have training experience in judo, because I have never trained it. What I did is, friendly sparring with people that train it for long time, without rules (with people that are heavier and stronger than me). I wanted to test my skills and principles that I have been taught against someone from different school of martial arts to see if they are working. What I saw was really poor performance from people that are even assistants to judo teachers here (still didn't have sparring with someone outside my country). That's why I want to practice against judo, bjj, jujutsu, aikido or real aikido, because they are similar with what I practice now: aikido. I learn and shape my thoughts by experience, and from what I saw in my life, sport's judo doesn't work on streets, but it doesn't mean that art is bad, but the practitioners and the way it's trained. There are guys that really want to learn martial arts, but lot of teachers don't know what they really teach (like I said, there are plenty of good teachers still around, but still hard to find). That's why I have bias for sports judo, but the main reasons are practitioners and modern teachers, not art itself (except if it's yellow bamboo, chi magic etc.).
> 
> Like I said, I want to learn more about martial arts, that's why I'm here. There are things and thoughts that need to be reshaped. I'm glad if you can help me.


Out of curiosity, what country do you live in? I've found that here (depending on the sport) most sport fighters are good at what they do if they compete, and able to transfer it to the street. It may be that in your area/country the level of skill overall isn't high, causing the differences in experience.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> There's a much bigger window (arguably no timing issue) once you have it.


That's what I was trying to say. Old Chinese saying said, "After you have pick up and hold on your opponent's leading leg, if you still can't take him down, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself."

After you have lifted your opponent up over your shoulder, whether you drop him right away, 1 second later, or 2 second later should not make much difference.


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## wab25 (Feb 1, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's what I was trying to say. Old Chinese saying said, "After you have pick up and hold on your opponent's leading leg, if you still can't take him down, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself."
> 
> After you have lifted your opponent up over your shoulder, whether you drop him right away, 1 second later, or 2 second later should not make much difference.


If the fellow in the suit grabbed his knife, instead of his hat, and introduced it to your kidney or lung, I would consider that a difference. In fact, I would call it a significant difference.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> But on judo competition, a competitor doesn't take punch to the face (or kick, knee etc.). On training, sport's judo doesn't prepare a practitioner for real self defense,


How do you test your MA skill in SD?

If you have not taken your opponent down 100 times with your "single leg", how will you know that your "single leg" will have a good chance to take someone down the 101 time?

The throwing art training is only the starting point. It's not the ending point. The ending point is the kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game integration.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2018)

wab25 said:


> If the fellow in the suit grabbed his knife, instead of his hat, and introduced it to your kidney or lung, I would consider that a difference. In fact, I would call it a significant difference.


It is, but that's not much to do with the technical timing of the technique (technically) - which is what I think KFW is talking about.


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## GreatUniter (Feb 1, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Out of curiosity, what country do you live in? I've found that here (depending on the sport) most sport fighters are good at what they do if they compete, and able to transfer it to the street. It may be that in your area/country the level of skill overall isn't high, causing the differences in experience.



Macedonia. There are good fighters but past their prime and usually don't train other people and don't compete. There are also some very good kickboxers and mma fighters that are very skilled, but don't participate in competitions anymore (and are gym teachers). Also there is very good sanda (sanshou) teacher and a judo teacher that are best in our country if we talk about sport martial arts; it's what I know. Other than that, other combat sport teachers are not so good or not so well known (I don't have information on their level of martial skill). We have a few very good self defense teachers that teach martial arts or combat systems, but not for competitions. In my country, overall skill isn't high when it comes down to martial arts, although there are few teachers that are exceptions.


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## GreatUniter (Feb 1, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> *How do you test your MA skill in SD?*
> 
> If you have not taken your opponent down 100 times with your "single leg", how will you know that your "single leg" will have a good chance to take someone down the 101 time?
> 
> *The throwing art training is only the starting point. It's not the ending point. The ending point is the kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game integration.*



If you throw 100 opponents with one technique, does it mean that you can throw your next opponent? Not all techniques work on all people in the way we are taught, that's why we reshape a technique and do it our way if it works for us. There aren't two masters that do one technique in the same way (even if it's copy from one another, there will be slight difference).

As for the second bold, I totally agree with you.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 2, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> If you throw 100 opponents with one technique, does it mean that you can throw your next opponent?


Before I took my TOEFL (Test of English as Foreign Language), I had spent 3 months to test over 100 different old TOEFL exams on my own. I could tell that my score was getting better and better every time. During the final testing day, Some questions when I saw the first few words, I could already come out the correct answer.

Question such as:

- Telephone book, book of telephone, telephone's book, ...
- If I had had, I would have had ...
- boulevard (this word appear in almost every test).
- ...

MA training is the same. The more that you can test on different opponents, the better that you will become.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 24, 2018)

back to the original question... comparing Taekwondo to Judo can be difficult as they are two completely different types of martial arts. Taekwondo has fast, powerful kicks and Judo is good at slamming people on the ground and submitting them. I don't know if it's true, but I heard that Judo has the highest injury rate of any martial art. A lot of martial arts can complement either Judo or Taekwondo.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 25, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> but I heard that Judo has the highest injury rate of any martial art.


Old saying said if you can't treat to be thrown on the ground as body massage, the throwing art may not be for you.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 25, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Old saying said if you can't treat to be thrown on the ground as body massage, the throwing art may not be for you.


yeah i've been on the receiving end of a Judo slam once or twice and it scared the crap out of me! if you don't fall right you could get seriously injured.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 25, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> yeah i've been on the receiving end of a Judo slam once or twice and it scared the crap out of me! if you don't fall right you could get seriously injured.


Yup. That' why a lot of the time falling is included in the warm up exercises at the beginning of class.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 25, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Yup. That' why a lot of the time falling is included in the warm up exercises at the beginning of class.


i know a guy who took Judo for around 30 years he said he got bruised up a lot. I take Krav Maga which incorporates Judo... I'm still a beginner haven't gotten to the Judo part yet... but we'll see how that goes


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## mdavidg (Feb 25, 2018)

If you can find a school that teaches traditional Judo then I say go for it. Traditional Judo is very different from sport, and it is traditional that was designed to be used as protection. In CO we have a school that teaches both. And you better believe that out of the three schools we have in the area I go to the one that teaches traditional because that's what I consider to be practical. But I will say this too. There's nothing wrong with studying TKD along with Judo. Or studying Judo for a year or so and then studying TKD. Most of us cross train in various martial arts. And you will take away something from each martial art that you learn.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 25, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> i know a guy who took Judo for around 30 years he said he got bruised up a lot. I take Krav Maga which incorporates Judo... I'm still a beginner haven't gotten to the Judo part yet... but we'll see how that goes


That's an interesting mix. I'd be interested in seeing that. I see your location is listed as Northside ATL - is that Atlanta?


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 25, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That's an interesting mix. I'd be interested in seeing that. I see your location is listed as Northside ATL - is that Atlanta?


yeah I live about 40-45 minutes north of Atlanta in the suburbs. i'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that's an interesting mix?  Krav Maga?


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That's an interesting mix. I'd be interested in seeing that. I see your location is listed as Northside ATL - is that Atlanta?


if you are talking about Krav Maga here is a video of Roy Elghanayan's 4th degree black belt test


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> yeah I live about 40-45 minutes north of Atlanta in the suburbs. i'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that's an interesting mix?  Krav Maga?


He's saying that combining krav with judo is an interesting mix.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 26, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> yeah I live about 40-45 minutes north of Atlanta in the suburbs. i'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that's an interesting mix?  Krav Maga?


Krav and Judo. I think they'd work well together. Very different approaches in some ways, and might balance each other.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 26, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> if you are talking about Krav Maga here is a video of Roy Elghanayan's 4th degree black belt test


Pretty flashy, but I assume that's mostly for two reasons. 1) it's a flash reel (so contains the "best looking" material) and 2) it's an added degree of difficulty for high rank. Definitely a nice flash reel.


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## lklawson (Feb 26, 2018)

mdavidg said:


> If you can find a school that teaches traditional Judo then I say go for it. Traditional Judo is very different from sport, and it is traditional that was designed to be used as protection. In CO we have a school that teaches both.


Before the inclusion of Judo in the Olympics, "Recreational Judo" was the norm in the U.S.  That spanned a lot of variations, ranging through health and self defense, but also including competition.  I remember reading one Judoka complain that the Olympics is going to kill Judo, restricting it to only competitive Judo while sacrificing the other beneficial aspects of Judo practice.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JR 137 (Feb 26, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Before the inclusion of Judo in the Olympics, "Recreational Judo" was the norm in the U.S.  That spanned a lot of variations, ranging through health and self defense, but also including competition.  I remember reading one Judoka complain that the Olympics is going to kill Judo, restricting it to only competitive Judo while sacrificing the other beneficial aspects of Judo practice.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


People said the same for TKD.  Truth be told, it seems like 99% of the TKD in my area is sport based.  And there’s no shortage of TKD here.  Hopefully my area is an anomaly.

People are saying the same for karate’s inclusion in the 2020 Olympics.  Granted, it’s a “demonstration” sport (or whatever the term is) at this point, but only time will tell if it becomes permanent and/or predominantly sport based.

There’s several judo clubs in my area.  One that stands out is primarily SD based (if you will), with all the regular instructors holding dan certification from the Kodokan (or are in the process).  The other that stands out is primarily a competition school run by a former Olympic gold or silver medalist.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Krav and Judo. I think they'd work well together. Very different approaches in some ways, and might balance each other.


Krav incorporates Judo


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> Krav incorporates Judo


Among like 5 other things. And I don't think I've seen many krav techniques that look like judo


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 26, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> Krav incorporates Judo


I've not seen much Krav, but the only Judo I've seen in it is a hip throw. I've seen techniques similar to Judo's, but they weren't applied the way they are in Judo. Probably just stuff I haven't seen in my limited exposure to Krav.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 26, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Among like 5 other things. And I don't think I've seen many krav techniques that look like judo


I need to watch the video I posted again I could have sworn I saw him do some Judo throws. yes, Krav borrows from a lot of martial arts


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I've not seen much Krav, but the only Judo I've seen in it is a hip throw. I've seen techniques similar to Judo's, but they weren't applied the way they are in Judo. Probably just stuff I haven't seen in my limited exposure to Krav.


I mean I'm not an expert on Krav either I've only been taking it for a few months. but I'm just about positive Judo is incorporated... how much of it is incorporated I do not know


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 26, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I mean I'm not an expert on Krav either I've only been taking it for a few months. but I'm just about positive Judo is incorporated... how much of it is incorporated I do not know


Whether it's recognizable will depend upon what was borrowed, and whether techniques were used, the principles that drive them (some techniques can be driven differently in different arts), or both. It's even possible Judo was an influence, but few specific techniques were incorporated. From what I understand, Krav can vary rather significantly, so the Krav I've seen might not carry the Judo influence as much.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Whether it's recognizable will depend upon what was borrowed, and whether techniques were used, the principles that drive them (some techniques can be driven differently in different arts), or both. It's even possible Judo was an influence, but few specific techniques were incorporated. From what I understand, Krav can vary rather significantly, so the Krav I've seen might not carry the Judo influence as much.



originally, Krav was basically Wrestling and Boxing. over the years it has been adding various martial arts. now it incorporates quite a few. the main focus of Krav is to make it home without getting attacked or mugged or whatever. I will say I'm not really familiar with the various Judo throws... I know that there are a lot. I would imagine that Krav took the throws that work best in a self defense situation and implemented them.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 26, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Among like 5 other things. And I don't think I've seen many krav techniques that look like judo


i reread my initial response to this post and it sounded like it could be interpreted as being rude. wasn't my intention


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> i reread my initial response to this post and it sounded like it could be interpreted as being rude. wasn't my intention


Nope, didn't find it rude


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 26, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Nope, didn't find it rude


ok good


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## GreatUniter (Feb 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I've not seen much Krav, but the only Judo I've seen in it is a hip throw. I've seen techniques similar to Judo's, but they weren't applied the way they are in Judo. Probably just stuff I haven't seen in my limited exposure to Krav.



This is what I found when I searched for judo in krav maga.


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## lklawson (Feb 27, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> i reread my initial response to this post and it sounded like it could be interpreted as being rude. wasn't my intention


I'm offended.  Pistols at dawn.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> This is what I found when I searched for judo in krav maga.


Definitely some Judo and Aikido in what he does. Oddly (since it's marketed as Krav) he uses a Japanese bow-in at the beginning of the flash reel.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> I'm offended.  Pistols at dawn.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Modern pistols or flintlocks? (Cross-thread swerve for the win!)


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## lklawson (Feb 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Modern pistols or flintlocks? (Cross-thread swerve for the win!)


Super Soakers.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## GreatUniter (Feb 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Definitely some Judo and Aikido in what he does. Oddly (since it's marketed as Krav) he uses a Japanese bow-in at the beginning of the flash reel.



His bio says that he has background in jujitsu, kickboxing and authentic krav maga, besides he was IDF and military instructor.


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## Steve (Feb 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> I'm offended.  Pistols at dawn.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


It's the 10 Duel Commandments....

Alexander
Aaron Burr, sir.
Can we agree that duels are dumb and immature?
Sure.  But your man has to answer with his words, Burr.
With his life?  We both know that's absurd, sir.
Hang on.  How many men died because Lee was inexperienced and ruinous?
Okay.  So, we're doin' this.


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## Professor Random (Feb 27, 2018)

It seems I missed most of the party, but I'll post my 2 pennies here quickly. 

I do taekwondo and personally I wouldn't say I do it for the self defense. (thats just a side benefit) I do it for the sport, and to compete. 

In my opinion its more of a sport for competition, and you wouldn't really get far on the streets with it, I haven't seen much of Judo but I hear that it's a little better for self defense. 

Due to a time crunch that's all I can say for now


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 27, 2018)

lklawson said:


> I'm offended.  Pistols at dawn.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I'll bring my  nunchaku


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 27, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> This is what I found when I searched for judo in krav maga.


awesome video


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 27, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> His bio says that he has background in jujitsu, kickboxing and authentic krav maga, besides he was IDF and military instructor.


he has his own gym out in Los Angeles. i read he has a violent temper.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Modern pistols or flintlocks? (Cross-thread swerve for the win!)


Flintlocks all the way


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 27, 2018)

Professor Random said:


> It seems I missed most of the party, but I'll post my 2 pennies here quickly.
> 
> I do taekwondo and personally I wouldn't say I do it for the self defense. (thats just a side benefit) I do it for the sport, and to compete.
> 
> ...



actually most martial arts start out as self defense then turn into sports. Taekwondo is an Olympic sport, which by my way of thinking, is about the highest honor a martial art can have


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## Steve (Feb 27, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> actually most martial arts start out as self defense then turn into sports. Taekwondo is an Olympic sport, which by my way of thinking, is about the highest honor a martial art can have


Really?  I’m not sure that’s true.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Feb 27, 2018)

Steve said:


> Really?  I’m not sure that’s true.


well I mean even the ones that turn into sports it doesn't mean that they are no longer effective for self defense. although there are some martial arts that I would not recommend in a self defense situation. also, the sport aspect creates professional fighters, people who train 5-6 hours a day... who can beat up just about anybody


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## shobukanmartialarts (Feb 28, 2018)

For self defense, I believe judo is the best. First off, taekwondo and karate both focus primarily on striking techniques. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but self defense in my opinion is best when it can be shown. Judo or *martial arts* focuses mainly on grapples, which don’t physically do damage on their own.If your daughter gets into an altercation and she ends up punching her attacker in the face, that would look a lot worse for her than simply grabbing her attacker and throwing them to the ground. And of course, like every other user on the planet, I have to say that it shouldn’t really matter because it should never get to a point where she has to use it, but of course that’s easier typed than done. And if she does need to use it, in the real world, a broken nose could result in a lawsuit, and a grapple really couldn’t result in much backlash.


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## JR 137 (Feb 28, 2018)

shobukanmartialarts said:


> And if she does need to use it, in the real world, a broken nose could result in a lawsuit, and a grapple really couldn’t result in much backlash.


I think a throw, joint lock, and/or choke can be more effective for an undersized person trying to defend themself.  A broken bone, dislocated joint and/or a choke that results in unconsciousness could result in a lawsuit just as easily and possibly more easily than a broken nose.

You seem to be comparing a grappling restraint to an alleged excessive strike rather than an alleged excessive grapple.  It doesn’t matter in which manner you defend yourself; if you’re going to put your hands on someone you’d better be able to justify why and the amount of force used, rightfully or wrongfully.


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## PiedmontChun (Mar 1, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I think a throw, joint lock, and/or choke can be more effective for an undersized person trying to defend themself.  A broken bone, dislocated joint and/or a choke that results in unconsciousness could result in a lawsuit just as easily and possibly more easily than a broken nose.
> 
> You seem to be comparing a grappling restraint to an alleged excessive strike rather than an alleged excessive grapple.  It doesn’t matter in which manner you defend yourself; if you’re going to put your hands on someone you’d better be able to justify why and the amount of force used, rightfully or wrongfully.



True. People can have serious damage from a throw. An untrained person is likely to try and post out an arm if falling or being thrown, which is just asking to break a limb, or not know to tuck their chin to their chest if falling to the rear. That can be almost as hard to explain as giving a black eye or broken nose.

I personally think grappling of some kind is needed for self defense though, not because it is "better" or more "effective" than striking, but because it helps with self-preservation in ways a lot of striking arts ignore. Some fights start with a punch, but just as many start with pushing, grabbing of the limbs or clothing. If you don't know how to fall or deal with being grabbed and pushed, then your striking is going to less effective.


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## kravmaga1 (Apr 19, 2018)

Judo and Taekwondo, both are good self-defense techniques. But which one is better, it depends upon the person, that's how well he or she has gone through a training and practiced it and what is best and comfortable for him or her in self-defense.


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## axelb (Apr 24, 2018)

Neither are good for "self defense", the self defence part comes from all the scenario up until the fight starts. 
Observation, conversation, body language.
All these are rarely taught in judo or tkd.

After that point, which is better for fighting?
That depends on how the school trains.
I have seen more constituency in live training in Judo, than TKD. Judo has newaza and randori to regularly test the techniques under pressure.

That being said, there are plenty of TKD schools available that will teach you to strike/defend striking, and aren't just about forms/pad work.


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## thekaratekid (Apr 24, 2018)

Judo!!!   but train both cant hurt


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 22, 2018)

BmillerWarrior said:


> Which art is best for practical self defense between the two? Also what arts blend well with both of these styles? I don't want to hear it's whichever art you love that works best... I want real answers and opinions. Thanks!



Neither one for these reasons. 






*Both have no striking* - In Taekwondo, it's illegal for you to strike. Not to mention, not enough time is spent on striking in Taekwondo. Striking is one of the most common forms of unarmed attacks. Same goes for Judo. I've compiled cases of Judokas and Taekwondo practitioners getting beat up in real-life attacks. Check it out. 






*Both don't address weapons* - The second problem with Taekwondo and Judo is the lack of weapons training for self defense. If you're not effectively training to deal with weapons, you're setting yourself up to get hurt or killed. That's what happened to many Judokas and Taekwondo practitioners. One Judoka got sprayed with a toxic chemical then got his fingers chopped off one by one. He was beaten to death with a hammer. Other Judokas and Taekwondo practitioners were shot dead in drive-by shootings. 






Those arts will likely get you beaten or killed on the streets.


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

I absolutely love it when someone is so sure of themselves yet are so massively, hugely uninformed that they make themselves look utterly stupid.



Isaiah90 said:


> *Both have no striking* - In Taekwondo, it's illegal for you to strike. Not to mention, not enough time is spent on striking in Taekwondo. Striking is one of the most common forms of unarmed attacks



Come to TKD class with me, get punched in the face, go home happy.

The clue is in the name, (very roughly translated) the way of the foot and fist.

An olympic match isn't everything about TKD, and not all TKD is focused purely on that aspect of sport.

Of course, you probably won't accept that because some guy on YouTube told you different.



Isaiah90 said:


> Judokas and Taekwondo practitioners were shot dead in drive-by shootings



And exactly what art would defend against that anyway? Using your chi to divert the bullet?

And anyway, the closest we get to drive by shootings around here is when I take a picture while travelling in a car.



Isaiah90 said:


> One Judoka got sprayed with a toxic chemical



Again, exactly what art is designed to protect you against that?

I'm not even going to go near the idea of other weapons, because you won't accept anything I say.




Here's an idea, pull your head out of your butt for a while and have a look around. Get some real facts about things before you attempt to publicly bash and berate them.

So now we've discovered you're spouting absolute balls, what magic art are you going to say is infallible and that everyone should do instead?


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

Oh yeah, I've just remembered - you're trying to start your own school.

Yeah, trash talking other arts is a fantastic way to get respect.

So come on then @Isaiah90 , describe how you'd defend against an acid attack, where someone just walks up to you and throws liquid in your face.

Or, describe your defence against a drive by shooting.


Or are these so secret and deadly that I have to sign up for a 3 year course and you'll tell me at the end?


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> *Both have no striking* - In Taekwondo, it's illegal for you to strike.



What the hell are you talking about? Have you ever actually been in a dojang? TKD is all about striking. Grappling, joint locks and throws are taught, certainly (to varying extents, depending on the specific style and school), but the primary focus of TKD is striking.



> *Both don't address weapons* - The second problem with Taekwondo and Judo is the lack of weapons training for self defense.



Again, what the hell are you talking about? I've been studying TKD since about 1969. I've spent a lot of time practicing (and teaching) the very things you claim don't exist in TKD.



> One Judoka got sprayed with a toxic chemical then got his fingers chopped off one by one. He was beaten to death with a hammer. Other Judokas and Taekwondo practitioners were shot dead in drive-by shootings.



First, I'd like to see a citation for this little story. Because honestly it sounds like something from a movie. Or something you just made up.
On the other hand, I'd really like to hear how you expect ANY martial arts training to stop a bullet in a drive-by shooting.


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## frank raud (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> *Both don't address weapons* - The second problem with Taekwondo and Judo is the lack of weapons training for self defense


  Hmmm in Judo the Kime-no-kata was developed in 1888. It has techniques against both unarmed and armed opponents, mainly sword. The Goshin jutsu kata was updated in 1956 and includes defense against stick, knife and gun. If you want to discuss how the particular techniques are ineffective or outdated, that is one thing. If you want to point out that many judoka don't practice these katas, that is another. To claim that judo does not have training for weapons only shows that you don't know what you're talking about. Judo also has striking techniques, again in kata form. Just because striking is not legal in competition, does not mean it doesn't exist.
No striking in Tae Kwon Do? I'm not sure even where to begin with that stupidity.


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> And exactly what art would defend against that anyway?



lol that's my point - none. The best defense is having guns, knives, melee weapons, and other weapons yourself. Trying to resolve everything with grappling, kicking, or striking, etc. is limiting your chances of survival.


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## mdavidg (Jul 23, 2018)

I personally believe that any martial arts program should incorporate weapons training. And this is why me and my boys, may choose one martial art but we will also take a Kali or Escrima class. Why? Because who else is going to teach you how to use your car key as a weapon? And that one key may mean the difference between life and death for you.


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 23, 2018)

mdavidg said:


> I personally believe that any martial arts program should incorporate weapons training. And this is why me and my boys, may choose one martial art but we will also take a Kali or Escrima class. Why? Because who else is going to teach you how to use your car key as a weapon? And that one key may mean the difference between life and death for you.



Well many don't. At least not for self defense. What are you going to do when you have someone firing rounds at you? Are you going to try to get in close with your Kali or Escrima sticks?  

Why would you use Kali or Escrima sticks to begin with? They lack the reach and power of modern melee weapons like baseball bats, pipes, etc. If i wanted to defend myself, i'd use those weapons instead.


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> lol that's my point - none. The best defense is having guns, knives, melee weapons, and other weapons yourself. Trying to resolve everything with grappling, kicking, or striking, etc. is limiting your chances of survival.





Isaiah90 said:


> Well many don't. At least not for self defense. What are you going to do when you have someone firing rounds at you? Are you going to try to get in close with your Kali or Escrima sticks?
> 
> Why would you use Kali or Escrima sticks to begin with? They lack the reach and power of modern melee weapons like baseball bats, pipes, etc. If i wanted to defend myself, i'd use those weapons instead.



OK, so for a start - not everyone lives in the apparent war zone that you do.

If I carry a gun and get caught with it (that's just carrying, not brandishing or using) then last I heard that's an automatic 5 year prison sentence.

If I actually use it, well then my sentence is increased exponentially, whether I cause harm or not.

Carrying a knife? That I can do, if I have a justifiably good reason to do so and it's size and design meets certain criteria - "self defence" is NOT a legally defendable good reason.

Baseball bat? Sure, I can carry one if I'm going to or from playing baseball.

Pipe? Yeah, if I'm a plumber I'd get away with some pipe in the van. Tucked in my belt while shopping? That's at least a night in the cells and most likely a court appearance.

Basically, I'm not allowed to carry a weapon - or any item that I'm intending to use as a weapon.

Even if I could, none of the weapons would give you any extra edge in a drive by or an acid attack. 
None. 
No edge. 
At all. 
Even a bit.

Also, I'd look a right wanker wandering about carrying a baseball bat.

Someone firing rounds at me?

For one thing, a lump of pipe isn't going to anything.

For another, the chances of that happening anywhere near here are less than winning the lottery, while getting struck by lightning.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> Well many don't. At least not for self defense. What are you going to do when you have someone firing rounds at you? Are you going to try to get in close with your Kali or Escrima sticks?
> 
> Why would you use Kali or Escrima sticks to begin with? They lack the reach and power of modern melee weapons like baseball bats, pipes, etc. If i wanted to defend myself, i'd use those weapons instead.


In most cases, carrying a baseball bat or pipe around is going to get you in trouble. Of course, so would carrying a rattan stick. However, knowing how to apply stick and staff technique makes a lot more useful weapons available in the environment around you.

And no, guns and knives are not universal solutions. They are tools, and sometimes have a place.


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## frank raud (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> Well many don't. At least not for self defense. What are you going to do when you have someone firing rounds at you? Are you going to try to get in close with your Kali or Escrima sticks?
> 
> Why would you use Kali or Escrima sticks to begin with? They lack the reach and power of modern melee weapons like baseball bats, pipes, etc. If i wanted to defend myself, i'd use those weapons instead.


If only someone with kali training to transfer the skills taught in stick fighting to the use of a baseball bat or a pipe. But who would think of using a pipe like a club?  That's some real out of the box thinking.


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## axelb (Jul 23, 2018)

self defence isn't about weapon attacks only; that is part of it, but a martial art that contains training in observation and body language prior to an attack will provide a better outcome than "carry a weapon". 

the weapons you can carry and are likely to encounter will be determined regionally. in many countries empty hand training will be more than adequate for most people. 

where do you live @Isaiah90 that you see regular baseball, pipe, knife, gun attacks at a higher proportion to empty had encounters?


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> OK, so for a start - not everyone lives in the apparent war zone that you do.
> 
> If I carry a gun and get caught with it (that's just carrying, not brandishing or using) then last I heard that's an automatic 5 year prison sentence.
> 
> ...



Would you rather end up in a prisonyard or a graveyard? 

Those modern weapons are better than Filipino martial arts sticks in melee weapon combat.  

The chances of it happening are low depending on where you live. Nevertheless, it can still happen.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> Would you rather end up in a prisonyard or a graveyard?
> 
> Those modern weapons are better than Filipino martial arts sticks in melee weapon combat.
> 
> The chances of it happening are low depending on where you live. Nevertheless, it can still happen.


I love your posts. Im finding all of them hilarious


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## axelb (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> Would you rather end up in a prisonyard or a graveyard?...



these aren't the only options when it comes to self defence. 

unless you live in a war zone maybe?
I've had a handful of violent encounters, and 10 times more encounters that could have become violent, but I used my non lethal and weapon free techniques in all these cases.
I didn't get arrested, and also I am not an unread forum member. 

how many weapon attacks have happened within your town this year?
how many attacks without weapons in your town?


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 23, 2018)

frank raud said:


> If only someone with kali training to transfer the skills taught in stick fighting to the use of a baseball bat or a pipe. But who would think of using a pipe like a club?  That's some real out of the box thinking.



Check out my video. Several attackers use bats as weapons. 

As for Kali's training being transferrable to bats, i doubt it. An attack with melee weapons is going to be too fast and aggressive for you to do any flashy disarms or techniques.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> Check out my video. Several attackers use bats as weapons.
> 
> As for Kali's training being transferrable to bats, i doubt it. An attack with melee weapons is going to be too fast and aggressive for you to do any flashy disarms or techniques.


You really aren't very familiar with Kali, are you?


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## axelb (Jul 23, 2018)

@Isaiah90 

would to recommend going to any club in particular and get training with live partners with/ without weapons?

or maybe do an online course without any physical interaction with people?


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## frank raud (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> Check out my video. Several attackers use bats as weapons.
> 
> As for Kali's training being transferrable to bats, i doubt it. An attack with melee weapons is going to be too fast and aggressive for you to do any flashy disarms or techniques.


Could you decide if you are using the weapon or defending against it?  As this is a martial arts forum, and this thread is about judo or tae kwon do , could you point out who in the video has any training in any art? If you are going to argue against something, and use video to support your claims, it would be nice if the video actually had some relevant context. Joe Thug assaulting a random person on the street does little for the discussion of the validity f martial arts for self defense.


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You really aren't very familiar with Kali, are you?


 
I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion lol.


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## axelb (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion lol.


you seem to be avoiding all the relevant questions, and posting videos to your YouTube page for views on your online self defence course instead.

what school do you train at that provides better self defence, and how long have you been training there? what style is it that you train that is better than judo or taekwondo?


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## Headhunter (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> Check out my video. Several attackers use bats as weapons.
> 
> As for Kali's training being transferrable to bats, i doubt it. An attack with melee weapons is going to be too fast and aggressive for you to do any flashy disarms or techniques.


Nice video ad but you forgot to write "don't forget to like subscribe, sign up for a newsletter and pay me 10 bucks for one of my t-shirts"


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 23, 2018)

frank raud said:


> Could you decide if you are using the weapon or defending against it?  As this is a martial arts forum, and this thread is about judo or tae kwon do , could you point out who in the video has any training in any art? If you are going to argue against something, and use video to support your claims, it would be nice if the video actually had some relevant context. Joe Thug assaulting a random person on the street does little for the discussion of the validity f martial arts for self defense.





axelb said:


> these aren't the only options when it comes to self defence.
> 
> unless you live in a war zone maybe?
> I've had a handful of violent encounters, and 10 times more encounters that could have become violent, but I used my non lethal and weapon free techniques in all these cases.
> ...



I was referring to armed conflicts.


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> Would you rather end up in a prisonyard or a graveyard?
> 
> Those modern weapons are better than Filipino martial arts sticks in melee weapon combat.
> 
> The chances of it happening are low depending on where you live. Nevertheless, it can still happen.



Well, let's look at the chances.

Prison yard - chances are very high if I carry a weapon.

Graveyard - too much coffee is likely to put me there first.


I'm 41. I can count the number of armed attacks I've personally experienced on zero fingers (hint, that's none).

I can count the number of unarmed attacks I've personally experienced on 2 fingers, but only if I count stuff at school.

Threats of unarmed attacks? Two. My epic self defence techniques were supremely successful. I threatened them back, they left.


I've been stopped by the police and searched for drugs or weapons maybe 100-200 times. It was a very common occurrence for me - par for the course by liking to be out alone late at night.


So, carrying a weapon just doesn't win the possible cost/benefit analysis, by a long way.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion lol.


You're making statements about Kali, and you don't see how knowledge about Kali might be relevant?? That's laughable.


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You're making statements about Kali, and you don't see how knowledge about Kali might be relevant?? That's laughable.



I'm yet to see a post from this person that isn't laughable...


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## dvcochran (Jul 23, 2018)

BmillerWarrior said:


> Which art is best for practical self defense between the two? Also what arts blend well with both of these styles? I don't want to hear it's whichever art you love that works best... I want real answers and opinions. Thanks!


It is just not a black and white answer. An physically gifted mid level student in either style can give some high ranking students fits. The same is true for SD. The guy with no formal training can give an attacker fits if they are big, strong, fast, been a bunch of bar fights, etc...
So are these your only two choices for styles in your area? Do you have to choose only one? Why the need for a definitive answer? The answer will change in the next post so what are you trying to accomplish?


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You're making statements about Kali, and you don't see how knowledge about Kali might be relevant?? That's laughable.



lol whenever you present the facts that go against a martial artist's beliefs, he/she always has to resort to cheap tactics like "oh you never trained in such art, therefore you can't criticize it.." Even when you have trained in it, you get ignored or questioned. That's laughable.


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 23, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Nice video ad but you forgot to write "don't forget to like subscribe, sign up for a newsletter and pay me 10 bucks for one of my t-shirts"



lol good idea. I'll be selling shirts too with my logo on it.


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> lol whenever you present the facts that go against a martial artist's beliefs, he/she always has to resort to cheap tactics like "oh you never trained in such art, therefore you can't criticize it.." Even when you have trained in it, you get ignored or questioned. That's laughable.



So how much have you trained in tkd or judo?

Because I'd really like to know where the "facts" you posted about them came from.

By the way, they can only be classified as facts if they're true, i.e. factual.

Saying there are no strikes in tkd is false, not factual.

That's not you presenting facts that go against my beliefs - that's you making up crap based on a huge lack of knowledge.

I'm not resorting to "cheap tactics", I'm honestly wondering where you got it from - because if it was from training that you paid for I'll try to help you get a refund.


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> So how much have you trained in tkd or judo?
> 
> Because I'd really like to know where the "facts" you posted about them came from.
> 
> ...



lol i said there's limited striking in TKD. You're twisting my words to make it easier to debunk.


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> lol i said there's limited striking in TKD. You're twisting my words to make it easier to debunk.



You're twisting your own words mate. I don't need to make it easy to debunk you, you make it plenty easy enough all by yourself.

You said "no striking", not "limited striking".

Look. You even made it bold yourself to save me doing it.



Isaiah90 said:


> *Both have no striking* - In Taekwondo, it's illegal for you to strike. Not to mention, not enough time is spent on striking in Taekwondo



Firstly you state there is no striking in tkd.

You then back that up by saying striking is illegal in tkd.

Then you say not enough time is spent on striking in tkd.


Make.
Up.
Your.
Mind.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> lol whenever you present the facts that go against a martial artist's beliefs, he/she always has to resort to cheap tactics like "oh you never trained in such art, therefore you can't criticize it.." Even when you have trained in it, you get ignored or questioned. That's laughable.


I actually said you don't know much about Kali. My experience with it is passing, and I find your comments about it oddly disconnected from what the art does. So, yeah, making definitive comments about an art you don't understand is odd, at best.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> lol i said there's limited striking in TKD. You're twisting my words to make it easier to debunk.


What do you mean by "limited striking"?


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 24, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I actually said you don't know much about Kali. My experience with it is passing, and I find your comments about it oddly disconnected from what the art does. So, yeah, making definitive comments about an art you don't understand is odd, at best.





gpseymour said:


> What do you mean by "limited striking"?



Meaning that the rules in sport TKD limit your use of punching during competition. You can't punch to the head for example .


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> Meaning that the rules in sport TKD limit your use of punching during competition. You can't punch to the head for example .


Okay, so you're talking about the sport rules for a specific sport. I assume you're aware that's not the same as the full TKD curriculum?


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> Meaning that the rules in sport TKD limit your use of punching during competition. You can't punch to the head for example .





gpseymour said:


> Okay, so you're talking about the sport rules for a specific sport. I assume you're aware that's not the same as the full TKD curriculum?



Also notice the rules for "sport tkd", which I have to assume is WT rules.

Not even the same ruleset in the sport sparring in ITF tkd.

Which, guess what?

Allows punching to the head, no limits. You can win an entire match by simply punching to the head.

You score more points per strike with kicks, but if you can't kick or you like punching, then punch.

So, y'know, incorrect statement based on ignorance of the facts.

Next?


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> Also notice the rules for "sport tkd", which I have to assume is WT rules.
> 
> Not even the same ruleset in the sport sparring in ITF tkd.
> 
> ...



Ok, let's suppose you can win by punching to the head. It's still ineffective for self defense. 

If i ran up on you and started punching you unexpectedly, you're not going to have time to "fight." I'm not going to let you get into your stance and spar. That's how real life attacks work.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> Ok, let's suppose you can win by punching to the head. It's still ineffective for self defense.
> 
> If i ran up on you and started punching you unexpectedly, you're not going to have time to "fight." I'm not going to let you get into your stance and spar. That's how real life attacks work.


What part of a punch to the head requires specific stances or sparring? I'm primarily a grappler, but there's nothing this side of a pulling a trigger - nothing - faster than a simple straight punch.


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> Ok, let's suppose you can win by punching to the head. It's still ineffective for self defense.
> 
> If i ran up on you and started punching you unexpectedly, you're not going to have time to "fight." I'm not going to let you get into your stance and spar. That's how real life attacks work.



Sparring isn't self defence, I never even hinted that it was. It's a game with rules. The problem is that you don't seem to understand it being a game and you seem to think the rules for that game dictate the entire art, even though you don't actually know the rules for every version of the game anyway.

But OK then, I'll play along with a scenario or 4... I'll only use techniques from tkd.

If you run up to me and start punching, one thing that sparring will have helped with is not emotionally falling apart due to being punched. (That's if you don't get a lucky suckerpunch in and get a knock out, for which there is honestly no defence at all)

So, scenario A - I wrap your arm (using the movement trained in an outward forearm block), then with the other hand do an archand strike to your neck while sweeping your leg with a low section hook kick and dump you on your back. Then I follow up with a pressing kick to your face and finally stomp and restomp the groin.

Scenario B. I do a rising wedging block to open your arms and grab your shoulders, headbutt to the face, upward knee to the groin. Then use a circular block motion to lift your leg and drop you. Finally, stomp and restomp the groin.

Scenario C. As you start punching I jump back and do a snap kick to your chin. Then a reverse hook kick to the back of your head, maintaining that foot contact to drive your face into the floor. Now you're down there I can walk around to stomp and restomp the groin.

Scenario D. I sidestep and spin with an elbow to your neck. Then a side thrusting kick to your chest to push you back a bit so I have range to use the wall I was leaning against when you attacked to do a reflex turning kick to your head. Really, that'll put you down. Stomping and restomping the groin would maybe seem superfluous at this point, but I'll do it anyway. Because you deserve it.



Notice how none of them required me to "get into my stance".


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> Sparring isn't self defence, I never even hinted that it was. It's a game with rules. The problem is that you don't seem to understand it being a game and you seem to think the rules for that game dictate the entire art, even though you don't actually know the rules for every version of the game anyway.
> 
> But OK then, I'll play along with a scenario or 4... I'll only use techniques from tkd.
> 
> ...



The problem with all those scenarios is you assume that i'm just going to comply and it's all goign to go exactly as planned lol.


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> The problem with all those scenarios is you assume that i'm just going to comply and it's all goign to go exactly as planned lol.



There are two possible answers to that...

1. Such is the speed and ferocity of defence using the killing art that whether you choose to comply or not makes no difference, the conflict will be over before you can make that decision anyway.

2. That's why I don't plan and I don't like scenario training being labelled as "self defence". I made up the scenarios for a giggle and to see what you came up with as a rebuttal. Nothing of substance as it turns out.



Thing is, you claim "1 or 2 strikes is enough to finish any opponent", which to be frank is absolute balls anyway. But if you think you can legitimately claim that it means you have a plan which you expect to be able to execute and that I as your attacker will comply. If you can claim that, so can I. And, so can your attacker.

You know what, I'm going to accept the clickbait and watch a couple of your videos later, then I can sit back and pick it apart like you have with other arts.


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

Erm, your "empty handed self defence sparring with a gunman" video...

You've never met a gunman have you?


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

So I've watched a couple more...

I believe your "8 years training" actually equates to doing a few trial classes over the last 8 years.

Your movements and body control are like a baby deer, you have very little control and even less balance. Much less any actual clue.

The real reason you "quit martial arts" isn't in the video - it's because you're not physically capable due to lack of training and conditioning. This could be remedied, but I think you were expecting it to happen during one of the trial lessons I mentioned above and I don't think you have the mental fortitude to work off those moobs.

You issued an open challenge. But then you introduced conditions like wanting to see your possible challengers so you could vet them. And you shut down the only people who accepted your challenge. Not very open at all now is it?

Then I saw your video about "cultural appropriation and white privilege in martial arts" - that was when I decided that I'm done watching your videos, if it was within the site rules I'd call you a jumped up self important little wanker, but I won't...


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> The problem with all those scenarios is you assume that i'm just going to comply and it's all goign to go exactly as planned lol.


Where in any of them did that require anyone's compliance?


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## axelb (Jul 24, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, so you're talking about the sport rules for a specific sport. I assume you're aware that's not the same as the full TKD curriculum?


I don't  think @Isaiah90 is invested in researching TKD as it conflicts with the handful of karate/wing chin classes they attended before creating an online self defence course.

people training in TKD works in self defence,
people training in judo works in self defence.
your chances of needing to use it are very small, both have their merits, and both work better than an online self defence course from someone with no martial arts qualifications.


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## frank raud (Jul 24, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> The problem with all those scenarios is you assume that i'm just going to comply and it's all goign to go exactly as planned lol.


Kinda like the way the attacker can have his way with anyone in all the scenarios you propose? Funny how that works.


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## frank raud (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> Erm, your "empty handed self defence sparring with a gunman" video...
> 
> You've never met a gunman have you?


Come on now "I deflected the bullet, or I got hit in the chest, accidently"  That doesn't inspire you with confidence in the technique?


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 24, 2018)

frank raud said:


> Kinda like the way the attacker can have his way with anyone in all the scenarios you propose? Funny how that works.



I don't got any scenarios lol. That's the whole point of what i said. Scenarios are BS.


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 24, 2018)

frank raud said:


> Kinda like the way the attacker can have his way with anyone in all the scenarios you propose? Funny how that works.



I don't got any scenarios lol. That's the whole point of what i said. Scenarios are BS.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> I don't got any scenarios lol. That's the whole point of what i said. Scenarios are BS.


So, when you're training self-defense, you don't ever set up a scenario for folks to work on to understand the mechanics and risks?


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

frank raud said:


> Come on now "I deflected the bullet, or I got hit in the chest, accidently"  That doesn't inspire you with confidence in the technique?



What does inspire confidence is now I know that a gunman is likely to just stand still like a pansy and very slowly move his arm around trying to follow me and just let go if I place my hand on his gun.

And that he'll only hit me by accident.

Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling of safety.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> What does inspire confidence is now I know that a gunman is likely to just stand still like a pansy and very slowly move his arm around trying to follow me and just let go if I place my hand on his gun.
> 
> And that he'll only hit me by accident.
> 
> Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling of safety.


I'm thinking I need to go back and look at those videos. The ones I looked at contained no actual MA/SD - just talking and reviews. I need to look again.


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm thinking I need to go back and look at those videos. The ones I looked at contained no actual MA/SD - just talking and reviews. I need to look again.



The gunman one features no _actual_ MA/SD either...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 24, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm thinking I need to go back and look at those videos. The ones I looked at contained no actual MA/SD - just talking and reviews. I need to look again.


For those wondering, it's worth watching


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 25, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> For those wondering, it's worth watching


I’ll have to check later - it shows as a blank vide (black screen, sound only) on my phone.


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## JR 137 (Jul 25, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I’ll have to check later - it shows as a blank vide (black screen, sound only) on my phone.


Please do.  It’s classic.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 25, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Please do.  It’s classic.


I did finally get to watch it. Not so much sparring, as trying to dodge the first (and, in this situation, only) shot. No real technique involved.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 25, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I did finally get to watch it. Not so much sparring, as trying to dodge the first (and, in this situation, only) shot. No real technique involved.


The S shape footwork is the technique.


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## axelb (Jul 25, 2018)

wow, that video. 
it's almost everything I expected from someone with a handful of lessons under their belt. 

I hope no-one has paid for these online courses.


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 25, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> So, when you're training self-defense, you don't ever set up a scenario for folks to work on to understand the mechanics and risks?



I do, but it's not scripted like most schools are. I try to do everything on the spot.


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## JR 137 (Jul 25, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> I do, but it's not scripted like most schools are. I try to do everything on the spot.


There’s actually a very good point to that scripted stuff when done attained properly.  They teach:
Distance 
Timing
Footwork
How to block
Where to block
What weapon to use, ie fist, elbow, knee, etc.
What target to hit

And so forth.  They’re worthless when people think they’re actual responses to use exactly how they’re scripted.  And they’re worthless if the attacker never goes beyond throwing one punch out and holding it there while the defender goes through some intricately scripted response.  They’re not supposed to be done slowly forever.  And they’re CONCEPTS, not literal responses.

Keep those things in mind and teach and train that way, and those useless scripted responses are a great training tool.  Take them literally and never progress beyond holding the punch out for a student in their first month of training, and they’re worthless.


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## Martial D (Jul 25, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> For those wondering, it's worth watching


That might work for Barry Allen.


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## JR 137 (Jul 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> That might work for Barry Allen.


I was thinking Barry Sanders actually.


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## axelb (Jul 26, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> There’s actually a very good point to that scripted stuff when done attained properly.  They teach:
> Distance
> Timing
> Footwork
> ...



This is a great analogy of the progress of student from beginning with a scripted process. In almost ever school there will be a low level static drill with a compliant partner, and this progresses as lined out here. 

those that do not attend a school beyond a certain level will never see the progression of this, and in some cases there are bad schools that never go beyond the static script.  
In these cases students will leave with the belief that these scripts are useless as they never moved onto the next stage.


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## now disabled (Jul 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I did finally get to watch it. Not so much sparring, as trying to dodge the first (and, in this situation, only) shot. No real technique involved.



Did I miss something or did he not get actually popped with the rubber dart thing as I think he did everytime.


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## pdg (Jul 26, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Did I miss something or did he not get actually popped with the rubber dart thing as I think he did everytime.



Well, yes...

But it _was_ an accident.


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## now disabled (Jul 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> Well, yes...
> 
> But it _was_ an accident.



I could suggest a tech but it would be very controversial and might offend


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> I do, but it's not scripted like most schools are. I try to do everything on the spot.


I don't think others' training is what you think it is. Techniques and drills are scripted. Sparring, randori, attack lines, scenario training are not.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Did I miss something or did he not get actually popped with the rubber dart thing as I think he did everytime.


I couldn't tell, but I couldn't see how it would be possible to miss often, unless that toy gun is highly unreliable. Take one step back as he starts to enter, and a shot to the chest seems more likely than not each time.


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## JR 137 (Jul 26, 2018)

axelb said:


> This is a great analogy of the progress of student from beginning with a scripted process. In almost ever school there will be a low level static drill with a compliant partner, and this progresses as lined out here.
> 
> those that do not attend a school beyond a certain level will never see the progression of this, and in some cases there are bad schools that never go beyond the static script.
> In these cases students will leave with the belief that these scripts are useless as they never moved onto the next stage.


That’s what happens when you “train” in a system for a few months and leave thinking you know everything and what they’re teaching will never work.  Of course those scripted responses will never work, they’re not supposed to work that way.  Those people don’t have the slightest clue what progression means and how the progression is being implemented.  I put “train” in quotations because how seriously can one train if they’ve only stayed a few months at most?

We did a set of 10 “basic self defenses” in my first organization (20 if you count against a right punch coming at you and against a left punch coming individually).  When I first started learning them, I though they’d work pretty well as scripted.  A month or two later, I thought they’d never work and were a complete waste of time.  After some more time I started seeing them for what they really are - teaching the basics of what I described above.

This guy sufferes from the same problem as my 4th-8th grade science students - he wants to “think outside the box” yet he hasn’t learned how to think inside the box first.  In order to be some sort of innovator, one needs to know the textbook stuff inside and out first.  How does someone know which parts are fundamentally flawed and which one aren’t when they have no experience beyond seeing something a few times?

Me being interested in photography, there’s a saying that comes up quite a bit and definitely applies here - learn the rules of photography.  Master them.  Then master them some more.  Then learn how, when, and which ones to break.  This guy wants to break all the rules; the only problem is he has no clue why the rules exist and is breaking them in the wrong ways for all the wrong reasons.  When that happens, you’ve got a complete mess, like his videos painfully prove time and time again.

Einstein would’ve never been able to come up with any of his revolutionary stuff if he didn’t know the accepted stuff first.  This guy’s got two fundamental flaws - he wants to skip the accepted stuff and go straight to revolutionary ideas, and he’s definitely no Einstein.


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## pgsmith (Jul 26, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> For those wondering, it's worth watching



  No, it really wasn't.



JR 137 said:


> That’s what happens when you “train” in a system for a few months and leave thinking you know everything and what they’re teaching will never work.  Of course those scripted responses will never work, they’re not supposed to work that way.  Those people don’t have the slightest clue what progression means and how the progression is being implemented.  I put “train” in quotations because how seriously can one train if they’ve only stayed a few months at most?
> 
> We did a set of 10 “basic self defenses” in my first organization (20 if you count against a right punch coming at you and against a left punch coming individually).  When I first started learning them, I though they’d work pretty well as scripted.  A month or two later, I thought they’d never work and were a complete waste of time.  After some more time I started seeing them for what they really are - teaching the basics of what I described above.
> 
> ...



  That was very well said, and worth repeating, as it is a very common misconception that has launched hundreds of YouTube martial artists.


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## JR 137 (Jul 26, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> That was very well said, and worth repeating, as it is a very common misconception that has launched hundreds of YouTube martial artists.


I didn’t think of the YouTube clowns watching stuff and then fixing the shortcomings without ever having stepped foot in a dojo.  Maybe, just maybe they’re trying out the stuff they see with their equally senseless buddies in their backyard and confirming their idiocy.  Kinda like this guy saying he’s used his stuff and other stuff in sparring.  I wonder if that’s what he’s calling the videos I’ve seen where the village people looking guy with the hard hat is getting choked out without an imaginary melee weapon, and the other one where he’s getting shot at with a nerf gun.

I wasn’t thinking about the jokers like this.  I guess I underestimated the level of stupidity out there.  I was thinking about the people who go to a dojo for a month or 3 and say karate (or insert art here) doesn’t work because they failed to see the prearranged stuff and drills are concepts rather than literal fighting moves.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 26, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I didn’t think of the YouTube clowns watching stuff and then fixing the shortcomings without ever having stepped foot in a dojo.  Maybe, just maybe they’re trying out the stuff they see with their equally senseless buddies in their backyard and confirming their idiocy.  Kinda like this guy saying he’s used his stuff and other stuff in sparring.  I wonder if that’s what he’s calling the videos I’ve seen where the village people looking guy with the hard hat is getting choked out without an imaginary melee weapon, and the other one where he’s getting shot at with a nerf gun.
> 
> I wasn’t thinking about the jokers like this.  I guess I underestimated the level of stupidity out there.  I was thinking about the people who go to a dojo for a month or 3 and say karate (or insert art here) doesn’t work because they failed to see the prearranged stuff and drills are concepts rather than literal fighting moves.


Wait...it's an actual imaginary melee weapon? I assumed he meant like a padded club or something when he said pretend weapon.


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## JR 137 (Jul 26, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Wait...it's an actual imaginary melee weapon? I assumed he meant like a padded club or something when he said pretend weapon.


I don’t know how to interpret anything the guy’s said.  I’ve tried to, but then I realize I’m coming dangerously close to starting to think on his terms, and I back away very cautiously.  Extremely cautiously.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 27, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> actual imaginary melee weapon


My favorite phrase of this page of this thread.


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