# ways criminal assault their victims



## Jusroc (Oct 28, 2021)

I was wondering if any one has ever done an in depth study as to how various types of criminal assault / attack their victims?
I think such a study would be really useful as well as enlightening and may be useful for expert martial artists to develop strategies and
programs that various types of people / groups could use to prevent and defend against such attacks.

One type of criminal I was thinking of would be those who are incarcerated in prison.
I have never been to prison (well at least not as an inmate), but know a number of people who have been and they have told me of
their experiences while in prison.

I think "surprise" attacks are often used in prison, as well as groups victimising particular individuals and the incidents can potentially 
result in death.

I think that people who have spent some time in prison learn from their experience and some of the most dangerous violent criminals
on the streets are people who spent time in prison but are later released back into normal society.

I think that a study of prison fighting methods, along with other types of set ups and scams, would be really useful for us naive 
normal folk who may not understand how underhanded some people can be.

Think such a knowledge base would also be useful for self defence experts, as this understanding is missing in even some of the most
sophisticated, and effective self defence systems which are taught by some of the most technically able people on the planet.

One example of this which i remember is one of the video's that Rener and Ryron Gracie did on strategies for self defence when facing multiple
attackers. 

Their suggestion was for the defender to ask the group if they could fight each member of the group on a one on one.
In an orderly civilised fashion.

I found that quiet funny, knowing what violent criminals who hang out in gangs are usually like. As from what I understand,
the reason why some of these people attack people is because they have the gang to back them up, strength in numbers so to speak.
Most crims in my experience do not have such a high honour code, they are not samurai but criminals and will take advantage of any
advantage they have at their disposal.

So, that is one thing that the Gracies mentioned, got wrong. At least at the time I viewed the video, which was a long time ago.
They likely have updated their videos now, as i did send feedback after seeing the video that explained the above.

Anyway anyone know of any books / videos that give an insight into criminal methodology behind their violent crimes.


----------



## frank raud (Oct 28, 2021)

Look up Craig Douglas (Southnarc) of Shivworks.  Look up Dr. William Aprill (RIP).  Check out Greg Ellifritz on Active Response Training. That will keep you busy for a long time going down the rabbit hole.  And yes, I have trained personally with each one of these men, so am vouching from personal experience.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Oct 28, 2021)

I would advise you to read anything and everything from Rory Miller.
Most people find their presuppositions and axiomatic ideas are incorrect. Because most people are not familiar with criminals and violent behavior they allow fantasy to be the baseline for their thinking and training.


----------



## Buka (Oct 28, 2021)

Criminals assault their victims in various ways, but the key is, all of those ways are well PRACTICED.
And when they get sent to jail, it's like a finishing school to share technique.

In order to deal with real world violence, you kind of have to embrace violence.


----------



## Jusroc (Oct 30, 2021)

thanks to every one for their answers to my post.
I shall take some time to go through the people mentioned.

I find the subject very interesting and kind of overlaps into behavioural science.
I think its an area that there isn't a great deal of a knowledge base on for people in the general public.


----------



## punisher73 (Oct 30, 2021)

Look into Patrick McCarthy's "Habitual Acts of Physical Violence".  Many people used his work and applied it to their martial arts training.  His basic premise is that violence usually occurs in certain patterns and those patterns are what kata was designed to defend against originally.

I also would check out books by Marc MacYoung, he goes over a lot of these things.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Nov 1, 2021)

I don't think this is one of those incidents where you can compare prison life to the rest of the world.  For starters, shanking is a thing among inmates due to lack of firearms.  As for multiple attackers, often times, that's not always a thing because of choice.  If a shot caller puts a greenlight on a particular inmate, a group of attackers in the car will be ordered to take him out.  If your cell mate is getting his *** kicked, and lay in your bunk and don't do anything, you could become a target yourself.

If you're going to study something, your best bet is probably watching YouTube videos of incidents on public transportation and inside fast food restaurants.


----------



## skribs (Nov 3, 2021)

The Fight Smart knife defense series analyzed hundreds of videos of real-world knife attacks for what kinds of attacks were commonly used by the attackers.  

However, this is something that I feel comes up in a lot of discussions on self-defense.  I think a lot of folk (especially those in competition-focused arts) tend to forget about the differences in a real self-defense situation.  I think they tend to look at self-defense as a streetfight.  But there are a lot of subtle differences.

The element of surprise (this applies to both fighters).  The attacker can surprise you with a sucker punch or jump you out of nowhere.  The first counter-attack by the defender will also likely come as a surprise.  Being able to react to a surprise attack (either by having enough awareness that it isn't a surprise, or by having enough training to instantly react) and being able to make the most of your surprise counter-attack are two pieces that are missing from sport training.  Of course, what happens if the fight is still going on after the surprise phase ends skews towards the styles that spar.
Asymmetrical goals.  The defender is trying to stay alive and get away with minimal harm done.  The attacker may just be trying to inflict violence, or they may be trying to do any number of other things: rob you, kidnap you, push/pull you into a less visible location.  A sport guy will tell you that their techniques will work in this situation, and I agree.  However, they tend to look down on self-defense guys because their techniques aren't as adapted to a symmetrical sparring experience.  They are typically designed to help get away from these situations.
Banned techniques.  There's a tendency to look at something like eye gouges or a knife and find analogs to what they already know.  An eye gouge is just a punch with your fingers, right?  Well, it can be.  Or it can be while you're grappling, you jam your finger into the eye socket like you're typing on a keyboard.  An eye gouge does not require the same velocity as a punch to be effective, and so it can be done in tighter spaces than a punch.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 5, 2021)

I can tell you how I used to fight people. I wasn't a criminal but I was a bouncer. 

Now bear with me here. A lot of the tactics we used are the same sort of ambush tactics criminals use. Because it is the safest way to win fights. 

We spot potential trouble. Get enough guys to handle that person. Then separate him from his friends, weapons and possible innocent bystanders. Then we interview the guy. And if we don't get the desired result we basically ambush him with superior numbers.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 5, 2021)

remember a guy asking me what i would do in a fight. 
He said, nah...spit in his eyes. I then thought this is so simple but effective.
Gives you the time to whack him or a combination of things.


----------



## Bobbycat (Nov 6, 2021)

Also your body position before a “surprised“ attack is very important.  I always keep one hand at my stomach level and another hand close to my cheek  like I think about something. But factually, I am in the perfect defensive position to block kicks to the groin and strikes to the head. Something like bellow . Frequently, confrontations occur in small/narrow spaces, including prison chambers, so compact styles with “dirty” techniques  could be more effective in these situations.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 6, 2021)

Bobbycat said:


> Also your body position before a “surprised“ attack is very important.  I always keep one hand at my stomach level and another hand close to my cheek  like I think about something. But factually, I am in the perfect defensive position to block kicks to the groin and strikes to the head. Something like bellow . Frequently, confrontations occur in small/narrow spaces, including prison chambers, so compact styles with “dirty” techniques  could be more effective in these situations.



Distance and angles are more important than a guard in those sort of confrontations. 

You can't really see punches coming at speed. And so you may think you are safe. When you are really not safe.


----------



## Bobbycat (Nov 6, 2021)

Agree. In reality, the one does not preclude the other.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 6, 2021)

Bobbycat said:


> Agree. In reality, the one does not preclude the other.



Yeah. But for some reason people always seem to sit too close and too square.






Even here he has the idea backwards. It is all well and good to be in range for striking options. But the whole premise of the defensive stance is to be reactionary.

Otherwise you just hit them.

So you need enough time to react.

And again. Directly in front inside range.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But for some reason people always seem to sit too close and too square.


Agreed. Keeping a little distance gives you time to react. It's not always possible, but when it is, it's certainly advisable. I also try to use a stance and position that will force them to move the way I want. Try to make it harder for them to use their dominant hand. Try to interact more with their off-hand side. Try to create a situation in which their most likely attack plays into your best defense.


----------



## Bobbycat (Nov 6, 2021)

It maybe look unusual, but in Xing Yi Quan people frequently step forward with simultaneous block and fast explosive strike ( Fa Jin). Usually, this short explosive strike is faster. Of course, the “reading“ the opponent is very important.


----------



## lklawson (Nov 8, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> I was wondering if any one has ever done an in depth study as to how various types of criminal assault / attack their victims?
> I think such a study would be really useful as well as enlightening and may be useful for expert martial artists to develop strategies and
> programs that various types of people / groups could use to prevent and defend against such attacks.
> 
> ...



Put 'Em Down, Take 'Em Out! - Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom Prison








						Put 'Em Down, Take 'Em Out! [Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom Prison].pdf (PDFy mirror) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
					

This public document was automatically mirrored from PDFy.Original filename: Put 'Em Down, Take 'Em Out! [Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom...



					archive.org


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 8, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But for some reason people always seem to sit too close and too square.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup. Ideally you want to get back far enough to see their strike coming, with your hands in a position to do something about it. The main reason to not want that distance is if you're planning to be the sucker puncher.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Nov 8, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I can tell you how I used to fight people. I wasn't a criminal but I was a bouncer.
> 
> Now bear with me here. A lot of the tactics we used are the same sort of ambush tactics criminals use. Because it is the safest way to win fights.
> 
> We spot potential trouble. Get enough guys to handle that person. Then separate him from his friends, weapons and possible innocent bystanders. Then we interview the guy. And if we don't get the desired result we basically ambush him with superior numbers.


I think this is something in that is typical for every sort of what you might call "violence professionals" other than ring/cage fighters. The ideal for a bouncer/LEO/corrections officer/soldier/predatory criminal (heck, predatory animals for that matter) is for there to be no actual fight because you set up the situation so that you can overwhelm the opposition with surprise, psychological intimidation, superior numbers, superior positioning, superior weaponry, and so on. Actual fighting skills are primarily for when things go wrong with that plan.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Nov 11, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Distance and angles are more important than a guard in those sort of confrontations.
> You can't really see punches coming at speed


I agree with this and other's comments regarding positioning.

An attacker must be in range to hit you.  They may casually close the gap by asking you for a match, the time, directions...  Much of the time, their ill intent can be recognized by their approach if you are situationally aware.  Their posture or having buddies hanging a few steps back can be a tell.  

Regardless,_ you have to control the distance_ by movement or by putting up verbal and/or physical barriers.  Getting your center line off angle helps.  If the _potential_ attacker ignores your efforts and continues to close, I'd delete the "potential" part and consider an attack is underway.  As quoted above, if the attacker is in punching range with you, you will likely not be able to see or defend/counter an initial strike.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 11, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> I was wondering if any one has ever done an in depth study as to how various types of criminal assault / attack their victims?


Every time I saw those moves such as Wrong Turn, or Texas Chainsaw Massacre, I always thought if anyone in that movie could just carry a handgun, none of those would ever happen.

IMO, it's not a good idea to assume that you are the good guy, everybody on earth are all bad guys and try to get you.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 21, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I can tell you how I used to fight people. I wasn't a criminal but I was a bouncer.
> 
> Now bear with me here. A lot of the tactics we used are the same sort of ambush tactics criminals use. Because it is the safest way to win fights.
> 
> We spot potential trouble. Get enough guys to handle that person. Then separate him from his friends, weapons and possible innocent bystanders. Then we interview the guy. And if we don't get the desired result we basically ambush him with superior numbers.


Same with the ER/psych ward. When we'd notice a potential code, one person would alert the rest of us, while they tried to de-escalate. But in the meantime the rest of us would slowly build around the guy, giving space so he didn't feel trapped and lash out, but still close enough to rush in if needed, move the other patients away (both for their safety, and to eliminate other variables). Then we'd wait for the point person to finish trying to de-escalate; if it worked we'd go back to our business (with a few extra people around, unless we medicated the patient), and if it didn't..strength in numbers.


----------



## frank raud (Nov 21, 2021)

Bobbycat said:


> Also your body position before a “surprised“ attack is very important.  I always keep one hand at my stomach level and another hand close to my cheek  like I think about something. But factually, I am in the perfect defensive position to block kicks to the groin and strikes to the head. Something like bellow . Frequently, confrontations occur in small/narrow spaces, including prison chambers, so compact styles with “dirty” techniques  could be more effective in these situations.


The Jack Benny stance. First time I've seen Shrek used as an example.  May have to update the reference for the younger generations.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 22, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> I was wondering if any one has ever done an in depth study as to how various types of criminal assault / attack their victims?
> I think such a study would be really useful as well as enlightening and may be useful for expert martial artists to develop strategies and
> programs that various types of people / groups could use to prevent and defend against such attacks.
> 
> ...


I would imagine researching studies about prison attacks would be informative to you query.

One of the larger principals in most martial arts is to prepare for any type of attack. One of the reasons time in training is a bigger factor. Learning SA here is a major point.

Sport and competition trains more for specific strikes since they are rules bound. It sounds like this is more what you are looking for?


----------

