# am i wrong?



## hwarang_do_adam (Feb 7, 2008)

ok im at work and this guy is pretty much being a bully twards me, saying bad things about me in front of other people always trying to put me down and he plays stupid jokes on me like putting greese on me. People in my command know about it and i guess someone talked to him about it and yet it still happens (just one thing he is not in my platoon). So one day hey said something mean to me and i walked up to him scratched my head and mumbled something when he came closer i chopped hime in the throught, this is not a small man he probbaly weigs 206 Lbs. and im like 135. We fought for a little while and i came out on top. Do you think i should get in trouble?


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## MBuzzy (Feb 7, 2008)

Honestly, this depends on a lot of things.  If I was the NCO or Officer in charge of doling out punishment, I have to tell you....you're probably already considered guilty - because you started the fight.  As an officer, I've been in these situations before.  And unfortunately, in that position, sometimes your personal opinions don't matter.  What really matters is the perception of the rest of the unit and the rules and regs.  It WOULD NOT look very good if one of my troops started a fight with a guy and then never got any punishment out of it.  Because that is all that people see - not the build up.

Now, a few other things come into consideration.  You said that people know about and someone talked to him.  WHO knows and WHO talked to him?  Was this just some guy or someone in yours or his chain of command.  That makes a big difference.  Because I have to tell you, if I heard about someone treating one of my troops like this, I'd be in the other dude's face within 5 minutes.  And that would be immediately after I had talked to his platoon leader or company commander.  If you have      brought this to the attention of your chain of command before it had escalated, that will have a BIG effect.  Even if you hadn't before, you need to go to your chain immediately.  Fire Team Leader, Platoon Sergeant, FSG, whoever you can.....but start telling you chain what REALLY happened before a decision on a punishment is made without your information.  A lot of times the decision is made before you ever get in the office.  It sucks.....but that's the military.

So to be perfectly blunt.....as a normal person/civilian, no, I don't think that you should get punished.  As an Officer, yes, you should probably get punished.  But if I knew that he had been doing this in advance, it would make the punishment a lot less harsh.

I actually had a troop in this EXACT same position, if you want the whole story and how we dealt with it, PM me.


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## gblnking (Feb 7, 2008)

As a former active duty infantryman I would say yes you should be punished. As a soldier these are your brothers, your family. Fighting each other breaks down the cohesion of the unit. That being said, it is a family. And brothers within a family fight. Your in a close-in community that is always at a high degree of stress. Props to you for standing up for yourself. I'm sure your chain of command feel that way as well. But you still should be punished and you should take it like a soldier and be proud that you can handle it. 
But then again if it was an NCO or officer that you hit then your screwed.


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## jks9199 (Feb 7, 2008)

You're probably due for some unit-level discipline, at least.  You created a situation, and attacked your colleague.  You ambushed him; it wasn't in response to a particular instance of bullying.  That makes it hard to justify your actions.


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## kaizasosei (Feb 7, 2008)

i dunno the answer to your question as i can only go by what you said, but i agree with gblnking in saying:



> Your in a close-in community that is always at a high degree of stress. Props to you for standing up for yourself. I'm sure your chain of command feel that way as well.



j


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 7, 2008)

I think any way you cut it that you are in trouble.  Good luck!


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## MBuzzy (Feb 7, 2008)

gblnking said:


> As a former active duty infantryman I would say yes you should be punished. As a soldier these are your brothers, your family. Fighting each other breaks down the cohesion of the unit. That being said, it is a family. And brothers within a family fight. Your in a close-in community that is always at a high degree of stress. Props to you for standing up for yourself. I'm sure your chain of command feel that way as well. But you still should be punished and you should take it like a soldier and be proud that you can handle it.
> But then again if it was an NCO or officer that you hit then your screwed.


 
This is a good point - the ranks involved make a HUGE difference here.  Hopefully he was the same rank....as that would be the best situation.  Any difference in rank can cause some big alterations.


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## Kacey (Feb 7, 2008)

From a self-defense perspective, a preemptive strike can make sense; in this situation, however, with issues of military rank, I believe that you should have not have started the fight.  Continuing it if he had started it would be a different story - but at this point, you are the aggressor, and he is the aggrieved party, which puts you in a pretty rotten position.


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## terryl965 (Feb 7, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think any way you cut it that you are in trouble. Good luck!


 
I would have to agree with Brian here one way or another the buck will stop with you and best of luck.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 7, 2008)

hwarang_do_adam said:


> ok im at work and this guy is pretty much being a bully twards me, saying bad things about me in front of other people always trying to put me down and he plays stupid jokes on me like putting greese on me. People in my command know about it and i guess someone talked to him about it and yet it still happens (just one thing he is not in my platoon). So one day hey said something mean to me and i walked up to him scratched my head and mumbled something when he came closer i chopped hime in the throught, this is not a small man he probbaly weigs 206 Lbs. and im like 135. We fought for a little while and i came out on top. Do you think i should get in trouble?


Yes, you should get into trouble.
Sean


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## Cirdan (Feb 8, 2008)

Yes. Your behaviour was unacceptable. And not too smart either.


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## mystic warrior (Feb 8, 2008)

Bad move dude


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## shesulsa (Feb 8, 2008)

Yes you should.


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## kailat (Feb 8, 2008)

Yea your prob looking at an Article:15.  If not a courtmartial.  But that will depend on like was said his rank, and if u hurt him or not.  At the very least an A15


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## MBuzzy (Feb 8, 2008)

kailat said:


> Yea your prob looking at an Article:15. If not a courtmartial. But that will depend on like was said his rank, and if u hurt him or not. At the very least an A15


 
Article 15 is definitely a possibility, but I would not say that it is a foregone conclusion.  Like you said, it depends a lot on whether he is hurt or not and the ranks, but if the ranks are close and he wasn't hurt much, it is conceivable that it could even stay at the unit level.  THAT will depend on the leadership involved.  Some commanders have a policy to keep things at the lowest level.  

If it DOES make its way up to the commander, and the commander has any sense, he's going to bring in a JAG, who will advise him of the legal courses of action and the best advisable action.  BUT, a JAG's recommendation is just that, a recommendation.  Now, if a commander doesn't follow the recommendation, that's usually not a good thing, because he will be held personally liable for any negative action resulting from not following the JAG's recommendation, but a JAG cannot bring charges or direct action.  In terms of UCMJ, he's looking at a possibility of one of the following articles:

*928. ART. 128. ASSAULT*

*934. ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE*

*891. ART. 91. INSUBORDINATE CONDUCT TOWARD WARRANT OFFICER, NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER, OR PETTY OFFICER*

*890. ART. 90. ASSAULTING OR WILLFULLY DISOBEYING SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER*

*914. ART. 114. DUELING*

I think that there is someplace on the web that will show you the possible punishments for each of these articles.  Any article of the UCMJ is bound by a range of possible punishments.  Of course, this is going to completely depend on the ranks involved and the descretion of the commander.  These things are VERY circumstancial - there are no definites until the commander makes a call.  OR, in this case, as it obviously is not a "60 minutes case," even as low as a platoon sergeant may make the call.


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## hwarang_do_adam (Feb 9, 2008)

he was a lcpl and im a pfc. I did notify one of my ncos who then notified his nco and the guy still kept on pushing me around so i made a decission.


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## MBuzzy (Feb 9, 2008)

E2 and E3...Well, you're good there, he outranks you by a bit, but neither are NCOs and he's not in your chain.  This is a good thing.

Its also been two days and obviously you've gotten nothing yet, that's good.

And both your chain AND his chain knew, meaning you identified the problem to your leaders.  

If I was making the decision at this point, you'd probably get a slap on the wrist, but really no more than an LOC or LOR depending on past performance.


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## Tames D (Feb 9, 2008)

I'm proud of you. Yeah you'll probably get in trouble. But if you don't stand up to bullies nobody will do it for you. Take your punishment and move on. 
Did I mention that I'm proud of you?


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## dortiz (Feb 9, 2008)

Sorry, but from your signature and the fact that your posting here I have to assume you are a martial artist.
Given that..god forbid you need to but chopping a guy who points a gun at you in Iraq is heralded!
Not being able to control a bully situation among civilian populas....wrong. No mater what you should be able to smile in his face knowing what could happen. Thats what we do.
Very wrong.

good luck and train hard.


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Feb 10, 2008)

QUI-GON said:


> I'm proud of you. Yeah you'll probably get in trouble. But if you don't stand up to bullies nobody will do it for you. Take your punishment and move on.
> Did I mention that I'm proud of you?


I kinda agree....but I am split on this, we are tought in the Student Oath...."I will be a Champion of Freedom & Justice" ......... but allowing someone to kick you around isn't justice, and who knows how many other people he was doing this to. You mention he has been doing this to you for a while, you didn't start the situation, you ended it, AFTER reporting it to your Seniors.
If the guy wasn't hurt, I think you did the correct thing.

I was at a work place many years ago, a guy kept messing with me, I let it go, then another guy jumped in and started with the "abuse". Now I'm putting up with 2 of them....guess what, a couple more wanted in on the pranks and jokes, making life at work very hard.....One day I had enough, I threw a double kick at one of the guys, to the groin and stomach. I didn't follow through with the kicks, pulled them, stopping at his clothes. He just froze, commented on how close it was, I said "I Know, the next kicks will be real"....word got around, the the pranks stopped. I ended up getting along with the first bully when it was all over.
Sometimes you just have to stop the situation before someone gets really hurt.
Thats my opinion...
-Kevin


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## Tames D (Feb 10, 2008)

dortiz said:


> Sorry, but from your signature and the fact that your posting here I have to assume you are a martial artist.
> Given that..god forbid you need to but chopping a guy who points a gun at you in Iraq is heralded!
> Not being able to control a bully situation among civilian populas....wrong. No mater what you should be able to smile in his face knowing what could happen. Thats what we do.
> Very wrong.
> ...


I disagree. How many times should a man (or a kid) smile in a bullies face before something needs to be done? He stated that this abuse had been going on for awhile and his superior officers didn't seem to be interested in stopping it after he reported it.


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