# The Kenpo jujitsu connection



## suicide (Mar 24, 2009)

what is it that makes these 2 compliment each other so well ?


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## Kempojujutsu (Mar 24, 2009)

There not two seperate arts, being taught. It has always been one complete art.


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## Doc (Mar 28, 2009)

Kempojujutsu said:


> There not two seperate arts, being taught. It has always been one complete art.



Of course now in our modern times, it depend upon the kind of jiujitsu being incorporated. However, traditionally since the inception of the martial arts, the "jiujitsu" or Chin na component has always existed. Only in the migration of the arts have many of its components been isolated for "nationalistic identity style preferences," creating as my teacher used to say, many "partial arts."


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## yorkshirelad (Mar 28, 2009)

Kenpo has always incorporated JuJutsu into its arsenal. Just look at the influence of the Hawaiian islands on Kenpo as we know it in America. Masters of Danzan ryu, Lima Lama, Lua and Arnis were extremely influential on Kenpo in its formative years. The 1970s to 90s saw the emergence of commercial kenpo, which predominantly focussed on the striking aspects of Kenpo. I wondered for quite some time why the Nage-waza/Ne-waza wasn't taught in most commercial kenpo schools as Mr Parker had knowledge of Judo. I could be wrong but I came up with a hypothesis. In commercial kenpo space is an issue, you want to keep your school overheads low and if you're paying rent by the square foot it can get expensive. You have to allow each pair of students more room to move when practising throwing arts, so by concetrating on striking, you can fit more students in your studio space. Many students in a small area equals more profits. This is just my reasoning however, but as Mr Parker was a genius in business as well as martial arts, I'm sure this crossed his mind.

Kenpo and JuJutsu have always be taught side by side and most of the time are two sides of the same coin.


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## Doc (Mar 29, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> Kenpo has always incorporated JuJutsu into its arsenal. Just look at the influence of the Hawaiian islands on Kenpo as we know it in America. Masters of Danzan ryu, Lima Lama, Lua and Arnis were extremely influential on Kenpo in its formative years. The 1970s to 90s saw the emergence of commercial kenpo, which predominantly focussed on the striking aspects of Kenpo. I wondered for quite some time why the Nage-waza/Ne-waza wasn't taught in most commercial kenpo schools as Mr Parker had knowledge of Judo. I could be wrong but I came up with a hypothesis. In commercial kenpo space is an issue, you want to keep your school overheads low and if you're paying rent by the square foot it can get expensive. You have to allow each pair of students more room to move when practising throwing arts, so by concetrating on striking, you can fit more students in your studio space. Many students in a small area equals more profits. This is just my reasoning however, but as Mr Parker was a genius in business as well as martial arts, I'm sure this crossed his mind.
> 
> Kenpo and JuJutsu have always be taught side by side and most of the time are two sides of the same coin.


While everything you say is true, the overwhelming factors were even more basic. Manipulation skills are not easy, nor are there very many competent teachers who can teach it on a mass marketing level. Any kid can walk a person through a striking routine, (no matter competent, or not), but base level manipulations have to be shown to actually work over hypothetical strikes, and the commercial system never had the manpower to teach it sir.

Add to that the discomfort of functioning joint locks and throws, and you turn away a significant amount of business. Also the necessity of having special flooring and mats, were also a factor. Commercial Kenpo can be taught on any surface, but throwing, grappling, and ground explorations demand special flooring. All in all, it was never conducive to business.


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## yorkshirelad (Mar 29, 2009)

Doc said:


> While everything you say is true, the overwhelming factors were even more basic. Manipulation skills are not easy, nor are there very many competent teachers who can teach it on a mass marketing level. Any kid can walk a person through a striking routine, (no matter competent, or not), but base level manipulations have to be shown to actually work over hypothetical strikes, and the commercial system never had the manpower to teach it sir.
> 
> Add to that the discomfort of functioning joint locks and throws, and you turn away a significant amount of business. Also the necessity of having special flooring and mats, were also a factor. Commercial Kenpo can be taught on any surface, but throwing, grappling, and ground explorations demand special flooring. All in all, it was never conducive to business.


Doc, your logic makes alot more sense than my previous post. I didn't take into account that various JuJutsu kihon waza could be taught without the necessity to throw, but because of their nature, they create extreme pain for the uke. In such cases little space is needed, but the discomfort of the student would cause business to suffer.

While we are on the subject, I viewed a couple of u-tube videos posted by you and noticed that you were using filipino hubud as a drill. I know that control manipulation is taught indepth in SL-4. Were these aspects taught to you by Mr Parker, or did you recieve them from your Danzen ryu teachers (control manipulation) and other filipino martial arts teachers (hubud/sensitivity drills).

Surely it could be stated that you are teaching an advanced form of Kenpo JuJutsu. To state that you teach SL-4 would suggest that the former three sub levels are being negated. Do you now concentrate entirely on control manipulation and sensitivity drills, or do you teach it along side the standard Kenpo technique syllabus?

Dom


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## Doc (Mar 29, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> Doc, your logic makes alot more sense than my previous post. I didn't take into account that various JuJutsu kihon waza could be taught without the necessity to throw, but because of their nature, they create extreme pain for the uke. In such cases little space is needed, but the discomfort of the student would cause business to suffer.
> 
> While we are on the subject, I viewed a couple of u-tube videos posted by you and noticed that you were using filipino hubud as a drill. I know that control manipulation is taught indepth in SL-4. Were these aspects taught to you by Mr Parker, or did you recieve them from your Danzen ryu teachers (control manipulation) and other filipino martial arts teachers (hubud/sensitivity drills).
> 
> ...



Sir, you are not the first to call some of the base things we do as a drill from the Filipino Arts. My personal knowledge of these arts is minimal and none physically. What I teach I was taught  to me by Mr. Parker, and as he explained to me, the depth of the information would be beyond the Filipino drill. I never heard the term Hubub until a couple of years ago by Brian Duffy of Texas, when he saw me teaching a seminar, and I had no idea what it was at the time. Trust that the depth of information is significant beyond what you see, and partly explained in one of the Youtube videos I did to explain some of its concepts, relative to nerve activations.

SubLevel Four Kenpo is the opposite of what many have surmised. While Mr. Parker taught me the four ranges, his definitions were slightly different for me, and much more comprehensive. 

ALL of the ranges have subcategories, (they are listed in our section on the sister KenpoTalk site), and the fourth distance in the commercial system is labeled "Contact Manipulation." 

In SubLevel Kenpo Concepts teachings, the fourth label is "Control Manipulation," with "Contact" being a subcategory. While some have challenged that assertion, they freely admit  "Control Manipulation" does exist. So my question to them is always, "If it exists, where is it, if it is not listed in your understanding of the four ranges?"

So to sum up sir, SubLevel Kenpo literally utilizes ALL the ranges, and ALL of its subcategories inclusively.


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## Doc (Mar 29, 2009)

Martial Science University

American Kenpo *and* SubLevel Four Kenpo
Combat Ranges (V-1.2)
By
Ron Chapél, Ph.D.​

I. Distance One: 
Out of Reach (no contact)

SubLevel One:

A. Psychology of Confrontation Theory

II. Distance Two: 
Within Reach (no contact)

SubLevel Two:

A. Psychology of Confrontation Theory
B. Spatial Distortion Concepts

III. Distance Three: 
Contact Penetration (Peripheral Contact)

SubLevel Three:

A. Psychology of Confrontation Theory 
B. Spatial Distortion Concepts 
C. Contact Manipulation
D. Visual Cortex Disruption
E. Nerve Cavity Strikes

IV. Distance Four: 
Control Manipulation (Aural Contact)

SubLevel Four:

A. Psychology of Confrontation
B. Spatial Distortion Concepts 
C. Contact Manipulations 
D. Visual Cortex Disruption
E. Nerve Cavity activation 
F. Energy Disruption Concepts
G. Kenpo Control Manipulation
H. Nerve Cavity Strikes
I. Kenpo Pressure-Point Activations
J. Control Manipulations


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## tellner (Mar 29, 2009)

Why do the complement each other so well?

It's dead simple. 

This is mid-20th century Hawaii we're talking about. People mixed and matched all sorts of things from saimin to pidgin. How could they *not* do the same thing with fighting? Ju Jitsu was part of the local culture. So people who were interested in fighting had access to it or at least access to getting beat up by people who knew it. So the local product - Kenpo - incorporated and worked around it.


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## yorkshirelad (Mar 29, 2009)

Doc said:


> Martial Science University​
> American Kenpo *and* SubLevel Four Kenpo
> Combat Ranges (V-1.2)
> By
> ...


Doc, 
I'm not going to even pretend that I understand evrything written in the above post. I am more of a visual learner and even then, it takes intense study and time for me to "get it". I've never been known for my academic abilities.

What I do surmise is that SL-4 is a complete martial science unto itself, and a far cry from the "commercial Kenpo" practiced by many. It seems that the art transcends the cultural differences found in most arts and assimilates the logical methods found in all. The "Borg" of martial arts....scary.


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## Doc (Mar 30, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> Doc,
> I'm not going to even pretend that I understand evrything written in the above post. I am more of a visual learner and even then, it takes intense study and time for me to "get it". I've never been known for my academic abilities.
> 
> What I do surmise is that SL-4 is a complete martial science unto itself, and a far cry from the "commercial Kenpo" practiced by many. It seems that the art transcends the cultural differences found in most arts and assimilates the logical methods found in all. The "Borg" of martial arts....scary.



"Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated."

Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## KenpoDave (Mar 30, 2009)

suicide said:


> what is it that makes these 2 compliment each other so well ?


 
Taught correctly, they are parts of a bigger whole.


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## Doc (Mar 30, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> Taught correctly, they are parts of a bigger whole.



Absolutely correct sir.


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## gixxershane (Apr 4, 2009)

so Doc, what you are saying is people sacrifice the art for the better of THEIR business??? shouldn't it be the other way around??? I am lucky to have found a instructor that teaches the "commercial" system, but is a stickler for all the jiu-jitsu... she was a good friend and brief student of the late Mr.German that helped her pull this aspect out of the kenpo curriculum


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## Doc (Apr 4, 2009)

gixxershane said:


> so Doc, what you are saying is people sacrifice the art for the better of THEIR business??? shouldn't it be the other way around??? I am lucky to have found a instructor that teaches the "commercial" system, but is a stickler for all the jiu-jitsu... she was a good friend and brief student of the late Mr.German that helped her pull this aspect out of the kenpo curriculum



Well, maybe. I don't know what people know or don't know. I can only judge the product based on my knowledge and experience. Most teach what they know I presume, without holding back. In the commercial system, more than likely there is a lot of information they simply don't have, because it was never there and even if they did, it wouldn't be easy to teach, or good for "business." So I just look and see what that tells me. But even that can be misleading. I see stuff on video, and see all the praise some people get, and to me it looks awful and disfunctional. Go figure. To each his own.


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## Darkside (Apr 12, 2009)

our teacher(myself and gixxershane) has a good way of describing why the jiu-jitsu was lost as part of the commercial kenpo system. If you punch someone in the face, whether it is done properly or not, it is still going to hurt. You may break a bone in your hand, or bust your knuckles, but the person on the receiving end is still going to feel it. If you are sitting there playing with someone's wrist trying to get a wrist lock, they're just going to slap you around silly. Of course, she said this much more eloquently than I just did, but the point is, you can teach someone to throw a punch and whether or not they execute is properly, chances are it's still going to hurt. If you teach someone half-assed jiu-jitsu that, you as an instructor have little understanding of, they're never going to be able to apply it properly in a self defense situation, as there is little room for error. I am thankful to have found a teacher who understands the jiu-jitsu, and makes it a point to teach us it properly. Twisted twig is a perfect example where we learn the attack properly, from different angles, and on different planes before learning how to defend against it. I think it is just a case of, what people don't understand they dismiss.


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## KENPOJOE (Apr 13, 2009)

suicide said:


> what is it that makes these 2 compliment each other so well ?


 Hi folks!
In regards to the kenpo jujitsu connection: Both Kenpo/Kempo/Chuan Fa/Kwon bop & Jujutsu/Jujitsu/Jiu Jitsu [BTW: I have nver liked the Jiu or jui preface,they don't call it Jiudo or juido, they call it judo!] are technique driven arts,originally neither had forms or kata. Contrary to some belief, 
Kenpo has focused on street oriented defenses with no regards to political correctness nor codes of equiquette. What a respectable jujutsu practitioner might never do [strikes to the groin,for example] are fair game for a kempoka or kenpoist. Long before people even knew what karate was, they would refer to kenpo as "kenpo jujutsu" because people knew what jujutsu was at that period in time. Looking at the transititional points of a given technique are the key to going from one given art to the other. 
Depending on the particular style/system, the influence of jujutsu/chin na may vary. There are many elements from danzan ryu jujutsu in Ed Parker's American kenpo and I've addressed some of them in some of my youtube videos. GM David German integrated the two arts in his TAI system.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Apr 13, 2009)

gixxershane said:


> so Doc, what you are saying is people sacrifice the art for the better of THEIR business??? shouldn't it be the other way around??? I am lucky to have found a instructor that teaches the "commercial" system, but is a stickler for all the jiu-jitsu... she was a good friend and brief student of the late Mr.German that helped her pull this aspect out of the kenpo curriculum


 Hi folks!
Gixxershane,are you a student of Kim Deacon? I was responsible for bringing GM German to her studio years ago. We filmed the seminar taught there and would like to contact her.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Apr 13, 2009)

Darkside said:


> our teacher(myself and gixxershane) has a good way of describing why the jiu-jitsu was lost as part of the commercial kenpo system. If you punch someone in the face, whether it is done properly or not, it is still going to hurt. You may break a bone in your hand, or bust your knuckles, but the person on the receiving end is still going to feel it. If you are sitting there playing with someone's wrist trying to get a wrist lock, they're just going to slap you around silly. Of course, she said this much more eloquently than I just did, but the point is, you can teach someone to throw a punch and whether or not they execute is properly, chances are it's still going to hurt. If you teach someone half-assed jiu-jitsu that, you as an instructor have little understanding of, they're never going to be able to apply it properly in a self defense situation, as there is little room for error. I am thankful to have found a teacher who understands the jiu-jitsu, and makes it a point to teach us it properly. Twisted twig is a perfect example where we learn the attack properly, from different angles, and on different planes before learning how to defend against it. I think it is just a case of, what people don't understand they dismiss.


 Hi folks!
Dear Darkside,
I think you "struck" upon an important point regarding both arts. I've always called jujitsu the art or "definite maybes" because some people have higher degrees of flexibility, tolerence to pain, as well as other factors that may circumvent a particular jujitsu technique being as effective as it would be to others. By the same token, if a particular given strike during the course of a given kenpo technique for some reason does not have it's desired effect, a kenpoist can convert to jujitsu as well. As I wrote in a previous post, I beleive I've worked with your instructor in the past and have brought GM German to your school.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## LawDog (Apr 13, 2009)

True,
Many schools do teach an inferior brand of Ju-jitty & Judo at their schools and within many Kenpo / Kempo systems. This is not a new problem within Kempo / Kenpo but rather an older one. If you don't understand how and why Ju-jitsu & Judo works then you will not be able to blend into an inpacting system properly. 
One of the main blending problems is in the footwork, there should be a common one that works well with both the Kempo / Kenpo and the Jujitsu.
All this being said there are many Kempo / Kenpo systems that have done a good job with this blending.
Weather it is "impacting" or "joint locking" ju-jitsu, it is all good stuff when it is blended properly.


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## Danjo (Apr 14, 2009)

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> In regards to the kenpo jujitsu connection: Both Kenpo/Kempo/Chuan Fa/Kwon bop & Jujutsu/Jujitsu/Jiu Jitsu [BTW: I have nver liked the Jiu or jui preface,they don't call it Jiudo or juido, they call it judo!] are technique driven arts,originally neither had forms or kata. Contrary to some belief,
> Kenpo has focused on street oriented defenses with no regards to political correctness nor codes of equiquette. What a respectable jujutsu practitioner might never do [strikes to the groin,for example] are fair game for a kempoka or kenpoist.
> KENPOJOE


 
Well, Kenpo was just the kanji transliteration of "Chuan Fa" which was the generic word for Chinese martial arts. Almost all Chinese martial arts had forms. Motobu, Kyan, Matsumura, etc. etc. all used forms and their art was always referred to by them as "Kempo". In fact, the oldest references to Kenpo/kempo have the practitioners doing forms as the primary method of teaching the art. It's only modern Kenpo that tends to be more technique driven rather than form driven.

As to the idea of Jujutsu being "respectable", this is simply not true. It was so violent and brutal, and it's reputation was so bad (mostly brigands and mobsters practiced it when after the Samurai disolved) that Kano decided to only take the "gentle" parts of it when forming his art of Judo. Jujutsu was designed by Samurai for us against other Samurai in the battle field when they had lost their sword. Its goal was to annihilate the enemy and render him powerless as quickly as possible.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 14, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Well, Kenpo was just the kanji transliteration of "Chuan Fa" which was the generic word for Chinese martial arts. Almost all Chinese martial arts had forms. Motobu, Kyan, Matsumura, etc. etc. all used forms and their art was always referred to by them as "Kempo". In fact, the oldest references to Kenpo/kempo have the practitioners doing forms as the primary method of teaching the art. It's only modern Kenpo that tends to be more technique driven rather than form driven.
> 
> As to the idea of Jujutsu being "respectable", this is simply not true. It was so violent and brutal, and it's reputation was so bad (mostly brigands and mobsters practiced it when after the Samurai disolved) that Kano decided to only take the "gentle" parts of it when forming his art of Judo. Jujutsu was designed by Samurai for us against other Samurai in the battle field when they had lost their sword. Its goal was to annihilate the enemy and render him powerless as quickly as possible.


 
In addition, Jujutsu and judo both teach ample use of striking techniques to soften the opponent, making him more pliable..."atemi waza".

If you block an incoming attack, soften the guy with a couple atemi, THEN throw him to the ground where you lock him up or hit him some more...Hmm...starting to sound like kenpo/kempo/kajukenbo as we know it.


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## arnisador (Apr 14, 2009)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> In addition, Jujutsu and judo both teach ample use of striking techniques to soften the opponent, making him more pliable..."atemi waza".



Well, Judo contains them only in principle...good luck finding someone who will actually teach them these days!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 14, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Well, Judo contains them only in principle...good luck finding someone who will actually teach them these days!


 
I know this is a problem with many schools, but I have been so far very lucky. One of my judo profs was also an old guerilla fighter against the Japanese in the Phillipines, and took a very serious view of atemi as softeners. It is, as you say, club dependent.


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## MarkC (Apr 14, 2009)

My original system was a kempo-jutsu kind of thing, and contains quite a few techniques similar to various schools of jujutsu and aiki-justu.


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## Darkside (Apr 14, 2009)

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Dear Darkside,
> I think you "struck" upon an important point regarding both arts. I've always called jujitsu the art or "definite maybes" because some people have higher degrees of flexibility, tolerence to pain, as well as other factors that may circumvent a particular jujitsu technique being as effective as it would be to others. By the same token, if a particular given strike during the course of a given kenpo technique for some reason does not have it's desired effect, a kenpoist can convert to jujitsu as well. As I wrote in a previous post, I beleive I've worked with your instructor in the past and have brought GM German to your school.
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE



Mr.Rebelo,
     Good to hear from you. I grew up in New Bedford and originally studied kenpo under Steve Arsenault from my childhood until my early teens. Yes, Shane and myself are both students of Kim Deacon. I'll let her know you are trying to get in touch. Her number at the school is 401 765-4300. She is usually there monday-thursday from 4pm-7pm. I'll also get her cell phone number for you, or if you'd like to PM me a number to reach you at, i'll gladly pass it along.

Salute,
Jeff


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## KenpoDave (Apr 15, 2009)

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> In regards to the kenpo jujitsu connection: Both Kenpo/Kempo/Chuan Fa/Kwon bop & Jujutsu/Jujitsu/Jiu Jitsu [BTW: I have nver liked the Jiu or jui preface,they don't call it Jiudo or juido, they call it judo!] are technique driven arts,originally neither had forms or kata. Contrary to some belief,
> Kenpo has focused on street oriented defenses with no regards to political correctness nor codes of equiquette.


 
Joe, I think you are overgeneralizing a little here.  American Kenpo originally had no forms or kata, because they did not make it from Mitose to Chow to Parker.  But American Kenpo is not the only kenpo.

But I am not sure that we can assume that pre-1922 Okinawan and Japanese kenpo practitioners did not practice forms or kata.  As a matter of fact, we know that Motobu did.


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## Doc (Apr 16, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Well, Kenpo was just the kanji transliteration of "Chuan Fa" which was the generic word for Chinese martial arts. Almost all Chinese martial arts had forms. Motobu, Kyan, Matsumura, etc. etc. all used forms and their art was always referred to by them as "Kempo". In fact, the oldest references to Kenpo/kempo have the practitioners doing forms as the primary method of teaching the art. It's only modern Kenpo that tends to be more technique driven rather than form driven.
> 
> As to the idea of Jujutsu being "respectable", this is simply not true. It was so violent and brutal, and it's reputation was so bad (mostly brigands and mobsters practiced it when after the Samurai disolved) that Kano decided to only take the "gentle" parts of it when forming his art of Judo. Jujutsu was designed by Samurai for us against other Samurai in the battle field when they had lost their sword. Its goal was to annihilate the enemy and render him powerless as quickly as possible.



Correctamundo! One big misconception is the belief in the pre-existing style of "Kenpojiujitsu, which actually comes from a linguistic misunderstanding. Simply, outside of China, Chinese martial arts were known by the translation of the kanji pronounced, "Kempo." The exception was Japan where they themselves had to draw a distinction between their actual fighting art(s), and their "do" arts by law and circumstance. 

A distinction that many in the West failed to see because the business of the martial arts caused the marketing of all of the Japanese arts as "fighting vehicles," as opposed to the disciplined cultural activities they were and are in this country. Once they learned the west was very much interested in fighting, all of their arts became the "ultimate in self defense" on the window.

As an example, in Japan judo came to be known as the Japanese winter sport, and when Karate-do came along it was originally promoted as a similar secondary school vehicle like judo for the summer. Both groups of practitioners were commonly known as "players." It was not unusual for students to "play" both at the appropriate time of the year as a part of their nationalistic cultural development, not unlike the west and its seasonal sports in school.

The Japanese exception was what was left of their fighting arts after the demise of the Samurai and his sword, "jiujitsu." Thus in Japan, they made the distinction between "Japanese Karate-do, Ju-do, Aiki-do, Ken-do, Iai-do" as cultural disciplines, versus "Japanese Jiujitsu" as a true combat fighting vehicle. 

With the importation of the "Chinese Method" of fighting known as "Kempo," It was often referred to commonly by laypeople as the "Kempo-Jiujitsu," or the "Chinese way of doing Japanese combat fighting." Thus, "Hey, look at the Chinese (Kempo) way of doing Japanese (Jiujitsu) fighting." Not a "style," but an expression.

Only later with the merging and creation of completely different meanings, interpretations, influences, and philosophy of the Chinese Arts through Kwai Sun Chow, who also studied with Henry Okazaki, did some of the old Chinese Chin-na and Japanese Samurai influence drift back into the art. 

It was Chow who is credited by Ed Parker with the philosophical shift to self-defense first, over cultural training methods. This became his major influence, and he always gave Chow credit for that perspective.


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## punisher73 (Apr 16, 2009)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> In addition, Jujutsu and judo both teach ample use of striking techniques to soften the opponent, making him more pliable..."atemi waza".
> 
> If you block an incoming attack, soften the guy with a couple atemi, THEN throw him to the ground where you lock him up or hit him some more...Hmm...starting to sound like kenpo/kempo/kajukenbo as we know it.


 
I remember reading an old interview (don't remember when or who though) from one of Kano's students.  In it he talked about after class the judo players would go into some of the bars to test what they were learning.  He said that if you couldn't knock the guy out in one strike, you would get harassed and would work that much harder at your atemi.  It was something along those lines though and it was odd that he talked about the importance placed on striking in judo in the early days.


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## KENPOJOE (Apr 20, 2009)

Hi folks!
Dear Mr. Weston,
First of all, "Chuan Fa" is not a Kanji [Japanese Character] tranlation for chinese martial arts. The correct terms for chinese martial arts in the Chinese venacular are "Wu Shu" [martial arts] or Chung Kuo Wu Shu [Chinese Martial Arts] or "Kuo Shu" ["national arts] in Taiwan. You are correct in the fact that most chinese martial arts had/have forms, however, the context of Chuan Fa is also a history of techniques taught to chinese peasants by revolutionaries in order to restore the the ming dynasty from the ching [mongols] who did not have time to learn entire kungfu systems. our kenpo salute is used as "restore the ming,overthrow the ching". The use of those techniques are still used by kempo families such as Motobu, I know this because I have learned those very techniques from Chosei Motobu himself as well as his students. in their given tradition, there is only one empty hand form [nahanchi] and 12 self defense techniques. However, you state there have been many technique driven arts that refered to themselves as Kenpo/kempo/chuan fa/kwon bop...
Case in point:Mas oyama mentioned he had learned a "18 technique" style of kenpo. no kata was taught only techniques
Bong Soo Han learned a kenpo system that also taught techniques not forms.
Even some mitose students state the focus of their training was technique driven, not form based.
Even Kajukenbo, which you study, had a focus on techniques, not kata, hence the shortness of the various palama set/pinian forms.
Many used the technique format through the use of the term "kumite" ["blending of the hand"] which in modern times we simply think of as sparring. In many styles, the use of one,two and three step sparring drills is an important element or pre arranged techniques. 
Jujutsu was only considered "brutal" because as opposed to the "gentlemanly" art of swordsmanship, empty handed fighting was considered a last resort when all weaponry based arts failed or were unavailable. kenpo as well as jujutsu has had more than it's fair share of "bad boys" who were more than happy to test their skills on the street.
I agree with your discription of jujutsu.
However, I still maintain that kenpo was and is still primarily a technique based art.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE




Danjo said:


> Well, Kenpo was just the kanji transliteration of "Chuan Fa" which was the generic word for Chinese martial arts. Almost all Chinese martial arts had forms. Motobu, Kyan, Matsumura, etc. etc. all used forms and their art was always referred to by them as "Kempo". In fact, the oldest references to Kenpo/kempo have the practitioners doing forms as the primary method of teaching the art. It's only modern Kenpo that tends to be more technique driven rather than form driven.
> 
> As to the idea of Jujutsu being "respectable", this is simply not true. It was so violent and brutal, and it's reputation was so bad (mostly brigands and mobsters practiced it when after the Samurai disolved) that Kano decided to only take the "gentle" parts of it when forming his art of Judo. Jujutsu was designed by Samurai for us against other Samurai in the battle field when they had lost their sword. Its goal was to annihilate the enemy and render him powerless as quickly as possible.


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## KENPOJOE (Apr 20, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> Joe, I think you are overgeneralizing a little here. American Kenpo originally had no forms or kata, because they did not make it from Mitose to Chow to Parker. But American Kenpo is not the only kenpo.
> 
> But I am not sure that we can assume that pre-1922 Okinawan and Japanese kenpo practitioners did not practice forms or kata. As a matter of fact, we know that Motobu did.


Hi folks!
Dear Dave,
I'm not basing my opinion solely on american kenpo. I base that on researching several different kenpo/kempo styles. As I mentioned prevously, Motobu only taught 1 kata and 12 self defense techniques. many of the okinawan kata came from various sources who do not claim kenpo roots or even use the  term.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
PS: hope to see you in Chicago in june!


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## Danjo (Apr 21, 2009)

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Dear Mr. Weston,
> First of all, "Chuan Fa" is not a Kanji [Japanese Character] tranlation for chinese martial arts. The correct terms for chinese martial arts in the Chinese venacular are "Wu Shu" [martial arts] or Chung Kuo Wu Shu [Chinese Martial Arts] or "Kuo Shu" ["national arts] in Taiwan. You are correct in the fact that most chinese martial arts had/have forms, however, the context of Chuan Fa is also a history of techniques taught to chinese peasants by revolutionaries in order to restore the the ming dynasty from the ching [mongols] who did not have time to learn entire kungfu systems. our kenpo salute is used as "restore the ming,overthrow the ching". The use of those techniques are still used by kempo families such as Motobu, I know this because I have learned those very techniques from Chosei Motobu himself as well as his students. in their given tradition, there is only one empty hand form [nahanchi] and 12 self defense techniques. However, you state there have been many technique driven arts that refered to themselves as Kenpo/kempo/chuan fa/kwon bop...
> Case in point:Mas oyama mentioned he had learned a "18 technique" style of kenpo. no kata was taught only techniques
> ...


 
Where to start?

*Kenpo / Kempo / Quan Fa / Chuan Fa*

*Mandarin: quán f&#462;*
*Okinawan:Kenpo*
*Japanese: kenpou*
*Korean: &#44428;&#48277;*













This form of martial arts can be translated in several ways. Some will call it "fist principles" or "the way of the fist", or even "law of the fist". The first character literally means fist. The second can mean law, method, way, principle or Buddhist teaching. It still means Kung Fu in a generic sense. True, "wu shu" literally means "martial arts" but that also applies to using chariots and spears etc. i.e., "war arts" and is not merely restricted to "hand to hand combat" the way Chuan Fa is.

They are still form driven. Motobu knew MANY forms/kata and remarked on them in his books. He chose to use the first two Nihanchi kata in his curriculum (the same two that Chosei demonstrates in his video) and had this to say about Kata: 

_"Everything one needs to know about Karate Kenpo is found in Naihanchi No Kata. The position of the legs and hips in Naihanchi No Kata is the basics of Kenpo. Twisting to the left or right from the Naihanchi stance will give you the positioning used in a real confrontation. Twisting one's way of thinking about Naihanchi left and right, the various meanings in each movement of the kata will also become clear. The technique of kata have its limits and one must come to understand this. The techniques of kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter, in an arena or on the battlefield. They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behavior. A small man must improve his technique as much as he can, and discover how it can be used regardless of time, place and opponent. In spite of a street encounter never being the same, the principles of the kata never vary. However, one must learn how they are applied and how to bend with the winds of adversity."_

Thus, Motobu's Karate kenpo _was_ kata/form based. The fact that he only taught two (and some say three) forms does not change this fact. He goes on _so_ much about the value of kata in his two books, that it is hardly worth mentioning. The above passage gives the gist of it though.

The Bubishi also extoles the neccessity and virtues of the "quan" or "kata" and its practice for _kempo karate-jutsu._ Okinawan Kempo Karate-jutsu was developed primarily from _Yongchun White Crane_ and _Monk Fist Boxing_. Both of which relied on quan/kata to transmit the curriculum to their students.

As to Mitose; the only kata he taught that we know of was Naihanchi Shodan (presumably learned from Motobu's book which we know he had access to since he used portions of it in his own book later). However, when I say "modern kenpo/kempo" I count it as starting with him. So when I say that it was primarily technique driven, I do mean the stuff that started with Mitose and then Chow.

Kajukenbo isn't kenpo. The Original Method used Kenpo as its base or _frame_ to build on since Sijo Emperado was the most experienced martial artist of that group and so they built Kajukenbo upon that _frame_ of Kenpo that Emperado learned from Prof. Chow. But it's not Kenpo per se.


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## punisher73 (Apr 21, 2009)

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Dear Dave,
> I'm not basing my opinion solely on american kenpo. I base that on researching several different kenpo/kempo styles. As I mentioned prevously, Motobu only taught 1 kata and 12 self defense techniques. many of the okinawan kata came from various sources who do not claim kenpo roots or even use the term.
> BEGOOD,
> ...


 
I have read some more research and corresponded with a couple historians who shared that Choki Motobu did know more than just the Naihanchi katas and did teach them, it was just that his study of Naihanchi was what he was most known for.  Also, the "12 self-defense techniques" were NOT set in stone and actually were just demos for a book, he had quite a few others.

His son Chosei, does alot of seminars on Naihanchi and the 12 techniques which further cements that appearance.


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## Danjo (Apr 21, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> I have read some more research and corresponded with a couple historians who shared that Choki Motobu did know more than just the Naihanchi katas and did teach them, it was just that his study of Naihanchi was what he was most known for. Also, the "12 self-defense techniques" were NOT set in stone and actually were just demos for a book, he had quite a few others.
> 
> His son Chosei, does alot of seminars on Naihanchi and the 12 techniques which further cements that appearance.


 
True. Even in his books, he is shown demonstrating several defense techniques that are not found in the "Twelve True Kumite Forms". He wasn't as limited as people have made him out to be. In fact, most of that image came from Funakoshi bashing him in Japan.


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## hongkongfooey (May 9, 2009)

gixxershane said:


> so Doc, what you are saying is people sacrifice the art for the better of THEIR business??? shouldn't it be the other way around??? I am lucky to have found a instructor that teaches the "commercial" system, but is a stickler for all the jiu-jitsu... she was a good friend and brief student of the late Mr.German that helped her pull this aspect out of the kenpo curriculum


 

It's the Kenpo way to sacrifice the system for business. Cherish the seniors out there with real knowledge of Kenpo. Once they're gone Kenpo will be the Tae Bo of the martial arts world.


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## Doc (May 10, 2009)

hongkongfooey said:


> It's the Kenpo way to sacrifice the system for business. Cherish the seniors out there with real knowledge of Kenpo. Once they're gone Kenpo will be the Tae Bo of the martial arts world.



It already is ....


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## hongkongfooey (May 10, 2009)

Doc said:


> It already is ....


 
Doc,

You are right. More crap Kenpo out there than good.


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## Danjo (May 10, 2009)

hongkongfooey said:


> Doc,
> 
> You are right. More crap Kenpo out there than good.


 
I think it has to do with the idea that people get when they think that they've "arrived" and stop learning.

Even those that realize that they have more to learn, often try for more "breadth" rather than "depth' in their art. They get to a sticking point, and rather than seeking to deepen their understanding of their art, they seek to broaden it by adding a bunch of stuff to it from other disciplines. While this may seem like increasing one's knowledge, it really just stunts their growth and they end up with an art that is a mile wide and only and inch deep. So what gets passed on is shallow. The very idea that things of significance can be taught via video is evidence that something got dropped along the way. The stuff I continue to learn about my art, can not be taught via video, nor is it learned through fumbling around on my own. 

There's simply no replacing knowledgable instruction. Without it, the arts, whether it be Kenpo or anything else, devolve into a parody of itself.


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## hongkongfooey (May 10, 2009)

Danjo said:


> I think it has to do with the idea that people get when they think that they've "arrived" and stop learning.
> 
> Even those that realize that they have more to learn, often try for more "breadth" rather than "depth' in their art. They get to a sticking point, and rather than seeking to deepen their understanding of their art, they seek to broaden it by adding a bunch of stuff to it from other disciplines. While this may seem like increasing one's knowledge, it really just stunts their growth and they end up with an art that is a mile wide and only and inch deep. So what gets passed on is shallow. The very idea that things of significance can be taught via video is evidence that something got dropped along the way. The stuff I continue to learn about my art, can not be taught via video, nor is it learned through fumbling around on my own.
> 
> There's simply no replacing knowledgeable instruction. Without it, the arts, whether it be Kenpo or anything else, devolve into a parody of itself.


 

Absolutely correct, Dan. Somewhere down the line some American Kenpo people decided that more was better and added more filler material to system already bloated with busy work. More is not always better, especially in a system that claims to be the "ultimate in self defense"  Now, I am sure most Kenpo people will disagree with me here, but It seems that the guys coming up in the late 50's to the early 70's were learning material that was more combat oriented. I can't say that about many of today's practitioners, especially in my area.

 The overwhelming majority of Kenpo schools in my area are a joke. We have three 10th degree black belts with two claiming direct lineage to Ed Parker, and one off shoot claiming lineage to one of the 10th's, within 30 minutes driving distance from my home.  One of these 10th's is very well known in the Kenpo world. It's a sad to see what Kenpo has become.


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