# Rolling with spazzies.



## drop bear (Sep 15, 2017)

Found this video which I think adresses some rare concepts. Not only how to roll with spazzies but why you should.

Everybody faces these issues at some time. It is not some sort of aberration to be ignored it is a scenario to adapt to and overcome.

Most importanly it improves you as a martial artist.


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## kuniggety (Sep 15, 2017)

As a bigger guy, I think I'm more inclined to roll with the spazzies. I don't have as much fear of accidentally getting hurt... although it can still happen. I can understand the reluctance of someone who is 50 lbs lighter than me... or a female who might literally be half my size/100 lbs lighter than me.

I agree with what he says. You'll get some new guy who you take mount on and they just buck like a bronco. I've never rolled with a blue+ who does that but, if they catch you off guard, you're going to get bucked off. If you're adaptable, you can use it to easily take high mount and then they're left with their arms shoved up by their head with a look of "what am I supposed to do now?" And an easy tap for you.


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## drop bear (Sep 15, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> As a bigger guy, I think I'm more inclined to roll with the spazzies. I don't have as much fear of accidentally getting hurt... although it can still happen. I can understand the reluctance of someone who is 50 lbs lighter than me... or a female who might literally be half my size/100 lbs lighter than me.
> 
> I agree with what he says. You'll get some new guy who you take mount on and they just buck like a bronco. I've never rolled with a blue+ who does that but, if they catch you off guard, you're going to get bucked off. If you're adaptable, you can use it to easily take high mount and then they're left with their arms shoved up by their head with a look of "what am I supposed to do now?" And an easy tap for you.



For me they tend to hug. Which is really irritating. Just latch on to something and stay there for the whole round.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 15, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Found this video which I think adresses some rare concepts. Not only how to roll with spazzies but why you should.
> 
> Everybody faces these issues at some time. It is not some sort of aberration to be ignored it is a scenario to adapt to and overcome.
> 
> Most importanly it improves you as a martial artist.


This is why I like students who try to escape or change the situation on me, when they want to see if something works. They don't know the technical counters at that time, so their attempts are less predictable. I don't like them doing that to other students without warning (the "recipe for injury" he speaks of), but I like the challenge of controlling that situation.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This is why I like students who try to escape or change the situation on me, when they want to see if something works. They don't know the technical counters at that time, so their attempts are less predictable. I don't like them doing that to other students without warning (the "recipe for injury" he speaks of), but I like the challenge of controlling that situation.


Excluding injury, wouldn't it be a good thing for people to try that on your students? It would provide them that unpredictability element that you normally don't get in a dojo/dojag, but is important for actual self-defense.
Yes, they might get injured from the unpredictability, but I would hope they know how to prevent those injuries from drills, and either way it's important to prepare yourself for situations where there are no 'trained' attackers.

Edit: regarding a statement at the beginning, stating that rolling with beginners is only a good idea for those more advanced, I have been rolling with white belts the last two weeks (as a white belt in bjj myself), along with blue, purple and black belts. I actually find the most use in rolling with other white belts. because it gives me the opportunity to practice what I know, without them immediately knowing a counter and nullifying what I am trying to practice.

I also haven't seen anyone get hurt from having two spazzy 'white belts' roll together. it's been pretty okay, as long as both of us have learned basic positioning and have a focus towards our rolling sessions.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 16, 2017)

As a side note, I just finished the entire video from @drop bear . Based on my own experience as a white belt bjj, I don't really see the need to grapple with those less experienced. I do see the need to get basic experience and defense against strikers, since that's how most people will react before getting close enough to grapple. But if someones in a state to grapple A: in theory by the time you reach blue belt in bjj (or equivalent in sambo/wrestling/jjj) you should be able to handle whatever they give you, and B: regardless of their level, there are so many different ways to react to each position, that if you have a lot of experience, you should know how to handle each. You shouldn't need to grapple with less experienced people to know their ways because, if they're effective, you would see more experienced people doing them as well.

That said, I am grateful that where I started training, they have everyone train together, I get how this might be more beneficial to me than purple belts, but it does give them an opportunity to teach, and by the time I reach their rank I believe I'll be more willing to help newbies because of the help I'm currently receiving.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Excluding injury, wouldn't it be a good thing for people to try that on your students? It would provide them that unpredictability element that you normally don't get in a dojo/dojag, but is important for actual self-defense.
> Yes, they might get injured from the unpredictability, but I would hope they know how to prevent those injuries from drills, and either way it's important to prepare yourself for situations where there are no 'trained' attackers.
> 
> Edit: regarding a statement at the beginning, stating that rolling with beginners is only a good idea for those more advanced, I have been rolling with white belts the last two weeks (as a white belt in bjj myself), along with blue, purple and black belts. I actually find the most use in rolling with other white belts. because it gives me the opportunity to practice what I know, without them immediately knowing a counter and nullifying what I am trying to practice.
> ...


I don't have any relatively advanced grapplers. Working with standing locks and throws, the injuries are more likely (and in some cases more serious) than what is likely while rolling. A shoulder lock takedown occasionallly leads to strained rotator cuffs (a couple of weeks not training that arm on that sort of thing) during standard drills with someone who just speeds up too much. I am bit flexible and fast enough in my reactions to prevent that. Standing grappling wanders more (because they are standing), and it takes some students an oddly long time to become aware of the fact that they are about to throw someone off the mats.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Excluding injury, wouldn't it be a good thing for people to try that on your students? It would provide them that unpredictability element that you normally don't get in a dojo/dojag, but is important for actual self-defense.
> Yes, they might get injured from the unpredictability, but I would hope they know how to prevent those injuries from drills, and either way it's important to prepare yourself for situations where there are no 'trained' attackers.
> 
> Edit: regarding a statement at the beginning, stating that rolling with beginners is only a good idea for those more advanced, I have been rolling with white belts the last two weeks (as a white belt in bjj myself), along with blue, purple and black belts. I actually find the most use in rolling with other white belts. because it gives me the opportunity to practice what I know, without them immediately knowing a counter and nullifying what I am trying to practice.
> ...


Just a note, I think you may be missing their definition of spazzy. It's not all white belts - just te ones who go from slow and uncertain to sudden, jerky, fast movements. Those are the ones that are a danger to other white belts. In standing grappling, I'd also include those who have bad balance and tend to grab when they stumble; they often over-apply locks at the end.


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## kuniggety (Sep 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> For me they tend to hug. Which is really irritating. Just latch on to something and stay there for the whole round.



Yeah, that was just one example I've seen. People wind up doing all kinds of things when they don't really know what to do.


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## kuniggety (Sep 16, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> As a side note, I just finished the entire video from @drop bear . But if someones in a state to grapple A: in theory by the time you reach blue belt in bjj (or equivalent in sambo/wrestling/jjj) you should be able to handle whatever they give you, and B: regardless of their level, there are so many different ways to react to each position, that if you have a lot of experience, you should know how to handle each. You shouldn't need to grapple with less experienced people to know their ways because, if they're effective, you would see more experienced people doing them as well.
> .



I'd like to think I'm a pretty good blue but I still occasionally wind up in compromising positions from white belts who are aggressive. That white belt sometimes has a few years experience in wrestling. Do I have tools to deal with it? Yeah but it's a completely different training experience compared to me rolling with another blue. Also, all blues are not created equal. You might be overselling a blue belt necessarily having all the tools and experience to deal with everything. A blue still has a lot of holes in their game... these should be getting closed up around purple. At least they shouldn't be so gaping anymore.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 16, 2017)

I agree with his thinking * but... *you are more susceptible to getting injured. Which is maybe why people don't want to work with spazzy unpredictable people.
I am going to start working on my ground skills again and I have been thinking about this exact problem. Back in 1999 I was rolling with the exact example he gives, my partner was young 19, outweighed me by 50 pounds, super spazzy and he decided to try that crucifix move he read in a book. I thought we were working a positioning drill when he went full throttle. I never did go for X-rays but he really damaged my neck. On top of that a few months later the same guy cranked on my neck again with something different re injuring my neck.  It has never been the same since. I have a lot of problems now with my neck. So beware.  I will not do any kind of free roll now with someone like that. I am hesitant to work at all. I cannot afford to be injured like that now.  my family depends on my ability to go to work everyday.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Excluding injury, wouldn't it be a good thing for people to try that on your students? It would provide them that unpredictability element that you normally don't get in a dojo/dojag, but is important for actual self-defense.
> Yes, they might get injured from the unpredictability, but I would hope they know how to prevent those injuries from drills, and either way it's important to prepare yourself for situations where there are no 'trained' attackers.
> 
> Edit: regarding a statement at the beginning, stating that rolling with beginners is only a good idea for those more advanced, I have been rolling with white belts the last two weeks (as a white belt in bjj myself), along with blue, purple and black belts. I actually find the most use in rolling with other white belts. because it gives me the opportunity to practice what I know, without them immediately knowing a counter and nullifying what I am trying to practice.
> ...



It depends what ruleset you are using.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Excluding injury, wouldn't it be a good thing for people to try that on your students? It would provide them that unpredictability element that you normally don't get in a dojo/dojag, but is important for actual self-defense.
> Yes, they might get injured from the unpredictability, but I would hope they know how to prevent those injuries from drills, and either way it's important to prepare yourself for situations where there are no 'trained' attackers.
> 
> Edit: regarding a statement at the beginning, stating that rolling with beginners is only a good idea for those more advanced, I have been rolling with white belts the last two weeks (as a white belt in bjj myself), along with blue, purple and black belts. I actually find the most use in rolling with other white belts. because it gives me the opportunity to practice what I know, without them immediately knowing a counter and nullifying what I am trying to practice.
> ...



It depends what ruleset you are using.


kempodisciple said:


> As a side note, I just finished the entire video from @drop bear . Based on my own experience as a white belt bjj, I don't really see the need to grapple with those less experienced. I do see the need to get basic experience and defense against strikers, since that's how most people will react before getting close enough to grapple. But if someones in a state to grapple A: in theory by the time you reach blue belt in bjj (or equivalent in sambo/wrestling/jjj) you should be able to handle whatever they give you, and B: regardless of their level, there are so many different ways to react to each position, that if you have a lot of experience, you should know how to handle each. You shouldn't need to grapple with less experienced people to know their ways because, if they're effective, you would see more experienced people doing them as well.
> 
> That said, I am grateful that where I started training, they have everyone train together, I get how this might be more beneficial to me than purple belts, but it does give them an opportunity to teach, and by the time I reach their rank I believe I'll be more willing to help newbies because of the help I'm currently receiving.



In theory isnt reality. You can get handled by noobs who are more athletic, more agressive or just lucky.

Especially if you are used to a certain kind of response.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't have any relatively advanced grapplers. Working with standing locks and throws, the injuries are more likely (and in some cases more serious) than what is likely while rolling. A shoulder lock takedown occasionallly leads to strained rotator cuffs (a couple of weeks not training that arm on that sort of thing) during standard drills with someone who just speeds up too much. I am bit flexible and fast enough in my reactions to prevent that. Standing grappling wanders more (because they are standing), and it takes some students an oddly long time to become aware of the fact that they are about to throw someone off the mats.



Yeah you would need to limit yourselves to straight wrestling or straight rolling.


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## stonewall1350 (Oct 13, 2017)

My girlfriend just recently started and she had the same fear of spazzies that most do. My advice to her was...get them to their back and keep your head MASHED to theirs. But I'm a heavyweight. Wasted energy is wasted movement for them and really good for me. [emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tez3 (Oct 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Just a note, I think you may be missing their definition of spazzy.



 "The offensiveness of this term and of _spastic_ differs considerably between the US and the UK. In the United States, the terms are inoffensive; in the UK, they are very offensive; see _spastic_ for more"
spaz - Wiktionary


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## drop bear (Oct 13, 2017)

stonewall1350 said:


> My girlfriend just recently started and she had the same fear of spazzies that most do. My advice to her was...get them to their back and keep your head MASHED to theirs. But I'm a heavyweight. Wasted energy is wasted movement for them and really good for me. [emoji6]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yeah shooting for the back was the advice I got for the bigger stronger guys.


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## JR 137 (Oct 14, 2017)

It’s funny, I’ve always thought “if you’re afraid of getting hurt by a newbie, then you’re not as good as you think.”  I figured you should be able to dominate a total newbie at will.

The last two nights in the dojo have proven otherwise to me...

We have a new guy, about 17-18 years old.  He was there for a few years when he was younger, but he’s been away for about 5-6 years.  So not a pure newbie, but not exactly a seasoned veteran either.

This isn’t an insult by any means, it’s just the truth: He’s autistic.  His movements are just so unorthodox and awkward.  He comes in very hard and tries to throw everything about 75% power.  He leans awkwardly, moves forward and backward awkwardly, and does this odd head down but face forward thing when you attack.  He doesn’t pull his hands back to generate power, but rather punches straight forward from wherever they are.  He tries to kick rib and head height, but most of them land at my knees or lower.

It would be easy to knock him out if it was a real fight.  One or two well placed hard shots would do it, and he’s leaves several targets.  But within the confines of the dojo and life in general, I won’t do it.  There’s obviously nothing to be gained nor learned on either of our parts from that.

What do I do?  Play defense and keep my knees from intentionally being blown out.  Keep my hands up and guard from being unintentionally being punched in the mouth.  Not hit or kick while he’s charging in so he doesn’t run into something full force.  Create some distance and tap the open targets hard enough to make him realize they’re open.

I wrestled newbies quite a bit.  I sparred (karate) with quite a few white belts.  I thought people who complained about the possibility of getting seriously hurt by a newbie needed to practice more.

Now I get it.  You could take them out whenever you want to, but you shouldn’t and don’t.  You’ve got to play their game, not yours.


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> It’s funny, I’ve always thought “if you’re afraid of getting hurt by a newbie, then you’re not as good as you think.”  I figured you should be able to dominate a total newbie at will.
> 
> The last two nights in the dojo have proven otherwise to me...
> 
> ...



I never play the I could,a game. I get manhandled by a noob i have been manhandled and that is my job to overcome.


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## kuniggety (Oct 15, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> "The offensiveness of this term and of _spastic_ differs considerably between the US and the UK. In the United States, the terms are inoffensive; in the UK, they are very offensive; see _spastic_ for more"
> spaz - Wiktionary



In the US, calling someone spazzy or spastic is a little derogatory. It’s not something you call someone as a means of endearment, but after reading how you all use the word, holy crap is it a world of difference. It’s good to know so I don’t drop into a UK school and call someone spastic.


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## JR 137 (Oct 15, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I never play the I could,a game. I get manhandled by a noob i have been manhandled and that is my job to overcome.


My previous post should’ve said “keep my knees from UNintentionally being blown out” not “intentionally.”  Damn iPhone.

And I’m certainly not getting manhandled by the guy.  If I wanted to or if it was an actual fight or competition, it would look like this...





There’s no point in doing that to him now.  Maybe down the road or if he was genuinely out to hurt me.  If he was out to hurt me, I’d return the favor if he kept it up after a few warnings.  But my CI wouldn’t let that go on in his dojo anyway.  Maybe in my old Kyokushin days, but not now.


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