# Korean Identity Problem



## Makalakumu (Jun 29, 2005)

One of the hardest part of training in a Korean Art is the identity problem.  It often seems as if "Korean Culture" is a hodge podge of memes, quickly assembled, and the explanations of the memes are incomplete.  It is very hard to find anything distinctly Korean.

In martial arts, this translates to multitudes of different things.  One of them being the fact that if one trains in a KMA, there is always an analogue of that art that exists in China and Japan and it seems as if the quality of the same technique is better.  Yudo vs Judo.  Hapkido vs Aikijutsu.  Tae Kwan Do vs. Shotokan.  Tang Soo Do vs Okinawan Te...

More specifically, Tang Soo Do traces most of its forms to Okinawa.  In order to learn the most I can from these forms, I am forced to go to the source...Okinawa.  It makes one wonder at why someone would train in a Korean art...especially when one faces these difficulties at the higher ranks.  

Does anyone else feel this way?

upnorthkyosa


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## Paul B (Jun 29, 2005)

Wow..UNK..This doesn't have flame war or anything written all over it..:lol:

That being said...coming from two Japanese arts before Hapkido,I kinda had some thoughts along the same lines at the beginning of my studies.  

My advice is search for the best practitioners in your Art you can find..spare no expense or effort..and when you find them,I think your outlook will be changed. Mine was.

I do think that Korean martial culture has and will continue to have its ups and downs...we just have to bring the best out of ourselves and keep striving towards our goals.

Are you honestly saying that a Japanese can do a Mae Geri better than a Korean can do a Ahp Cha Gi?...:lol: :asian:


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## Pale Rider (Jun 29, 2005)

In a nutshell - I believe it is all in the "packaging".  Not saying one is better then the other, I just believe that there is something to be learned from various styles.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 30, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> Wow..UNK..This doesn't have flame war or anything written all over it..:lol:
> 
> That being said...coming from two Japanese arts before Hapkido,I kinda had some thoughts along the same lines at the beginning of my studies.
> 
> ...


That isn't what I'm saying at all.  The basic techniques are fine.  Particularly, I am frustrated with our forms.  In order to learn the bunkai and tuite, I've had to go elsewhere to complete my knowledge.  Perhaps if I had started in an art where these forms originate, this would not have been neccessary.  I have a lot invested in my Korean art and I'm disappointed to find the blind spots.  Does this make sense?  I'm not trying to flame anyone...


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## Paul B (Jun 30, 2005)

I see..point taken. 

So you see a lack of "depth" to your study. I can understand that wholeheartedly. There is nothing that bugs me more than taking technique at face value...there is always more to it. I would venture that it's more in who you can find to learn from,also. Have you tried talking about this to the "higher ups"?


I wasn't trying to accuse you of starting something..just one of my usual ill-timed jokes..sorry.


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## The Kai (Jul 1, 2005)

UNK

Even in the Japanese circles the in depth study of Bunkai, (IMHO) also a recent thing.  What you are going thru is nothing new.  Look at Gojo or Shorin Ryu, there higher level forms ?  White Crane.  I believe that in every system there is a returning to the source for some of the higher material


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## Spookey (Jul 1, 2005)

The whole issue is rhetorical...

Korean arts came from the Japanese arts
Japanese arts are mainly based in Okinawan arts
Okinawan arts derived from the Chinese arts
Chinese arts derived from the Indian arts (Bouhdidarma)

...Now, are you aware that the fighting arts of the three kingdoms that became Korea were possible practicing fighting arts far prior to the voyage of Boudidarma to China!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

(What came first doesnt matter...regardless the topic we always look to the past to guide our journey into the future...)


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## Jonathan Randall (Jul 2, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> One of the hardest part of training in a Korean Art is the identity problem. It often seems as if "Korean Culture" is a hodge podge of memes, quickly assembled, and the explanations of the memes are incomplete. It is very hard to find anything distinctly Korean.
> 
> In martial arts, this translates to multitudes of different things. One of them being the fact that if one trains in a KMA, there is always an analogue of that art that exists in China and Japan and it seems as if the quality of the same technique is better. Yudo vs Judo. Hapkido vs Aikijutsu. Tae Kwan Do vs. Shotokan. Tang Soo Do vs Okinawan Te...
> 
> ...


I understand your concern - but have you studied at an Okinawian based school before? I studied Shotokan forms up to brown belt and when I visited a TSD school near where I live, I was astonished to see the VERY same techniques and nearly identical forms being practiced. HOWEVER, this was just SURFACE art. After overcoming my surprise (as a then TKD stylist I was taught by my McDojo that TKD, and therefore TSD, was a two thousand year old, uniquely Korean art), I began to see nuances of difference between shotokan and TSD. After watching for a while, I saw a level of finesse in the TSD practioners that was missing in my SPECIFIC (don't flame me as an anti-Okinawan stylist, I am speaking only of one school) shotokan experience.

Relax. This is the history of all martial arts. Discovery of another culture's art, assimiliation of that art, and finally, the development of a DISTINCT national style. Every nation's art has a pre-cursor. Okinawa? How about China? China? How about India? Where it stops, nobody knows.


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## Miles (Jul 2, 2005)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Relax. This is the history of all martial arts. Discovery of another culture's art, assimiliation of that art, and finally, the development of a DISTINCT national style. Every nation's art has a pre-cursor. Okinawa? How about China? China? How about India? Where it stops, nobody knows.


 I agree with Mr. Randall.  You have to remember that Korea geographically lies between China and Japan.  Isn't it reasonable that anything that either exported to each other went through Korea first?  Secondly, Korean culture was nearly annihilated when Japan occupied Korea.  So even things which are uniquely Korean likely have been influenced by the Japanese.

 It is not as important where something came from or how it got there as it is that you are learning it properly.

 Miles


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## arnisador (Jul 2, 2005)

I would consider Shotokan a form of Japanese karate, not Okinawan, incidentally.


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## Jonathan Randall (Jul 2, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I would consider Shotokan a form of Japanese karate, not Okinawan, incidentally.


If it comes down to it; so would I. Shotokan forms were developed in Okinawa by Itosu, but it has since taken on a unique, more Japanese, IMHO, character, whereas other Okinawan based Karate styles have stayed, how do I say it?, more Okinawan. This just serves to aleviate the original poster's concern that his Korean arts are derivative. ALL ARTS ARE DERIVATIVE!


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## Spaniard (Jul 6, 2005)

I am coming back to this forum after a hiatus because this thread was very interesting.

I like Paul B.'s suggestion about talking to your seniors.

At the same time, I kind of have come to the conclusion that looking beyond Tae Kwon Do-can't give an educated opinion of other arts- is kind of the nature of the beast.  I also don't see anything wrong with getting insights from parent arts or unrelated ones.  You are not dumping your art, you are just getting a different perspective on it.

Regards-

Erik P.


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## Miles (Jul 8, 2005)

Welcome back Spaniard.

 I agree-studying different arts allows one to appreciate the similarities and the differences.

 Miles


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## ave_turuta (Jul 23, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> One of the hardest part of training in a Korean Art is the identity problem. It often seems as if "Korean Culture" is a hodge podge of memes, quickly assembled, and the explanations of the memes are incomplete. It is very hard to find anything distinctly Korean.
> 
> In martial arts, this translates to multitudes of different things. One of them being the fact that if one trains in a KMA, there is always an analogue of that art that exists in China and Japan and it seems as if the quality of the same technique is better. Yudo vs Judo. Hapkido vs Aikijutsu. Tae Kwan Do vs. Shotokan. Tang Soo Do vs Okinawan Te...
> 
> ...


 I think one of the problems we all face is the difficult of accepting the (imho) very rigid approach to the link between a particular art and the national culture linked to it. Me not being nationalistic at alll, I have a very difficult time accepting the sort of mythological indoctrination presented in many MA manuals on this art or the other. "Korean," "Chinese," "Japanese," etc. are terms that have very different meanings for different people. From a historical point of view, to speak of "purity" in a practice like Martial Arts makes little sense, for we are well aware of the fact that human beings have intereacted across borders for millenia. I believe the problem comes when a particular cultural practice, or a sport, becomes "nationalized" for what are strictly political reasons: if/when speaking of "purity," does it make sense to speak of "purity" besides that of the originator of the art? Anything else is derivative in one way or another, and as all cultural practices, has been transformed throughout the ages (despite the traditionalists' claims that there is such a thing as a "pure" form or practice). Claims to purity and authenticity are often derived from stiff ideologies elaborated for a variety of reasons: xenophobic nationalism being one of them. I would much rather see the martial arts as an evolving practice that reflect the richness and variety of human experience and from which we all have a great deal to learn. Politics in the dojang do not interest me  

 Respectfully, 
 A.T.


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## shesulsa (Aug 24, 2005)

So - where do we go from here?

 Right now there are still many KMAists tied up in this identity crisis or slinging political mud.

 How, in your opinion, can we bring KMA back into being formidable martial arts (besides TKD)?  Keep our community alive?


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## Makalakumu (Aug 25, 2005)

I had to think a long time about this because I feel/felt a lot of up-line pressure to not form certain opinions.  However, here I go...



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> So - where do we go from here?


1.  We need to recognize the eclectic nature of KMA's.  We have pulled in things from lots of various traditions in an attempt to form something new.  This, in reality, reflects Korean History.  In my opinion, no other place that I have come across in my studies has had as much cultural turmoil as Korea.  In the end, Korean culture is a mix/match of lots of different things.

2.  We need to stop rewriting history because of some nationalistic zietgiest.  KMA's are what they are and we don't need to make things up in order to be more "korean".  In the US, we are in a special position where we can be somewhat separated from the politics of the region.  We should use the opportunity and make the flavor of KMA's a little more "melting pot" American.

3.  We need to make more of an effort to understand the stuff that was borrowed.  If that means cross training and bringing the material back into our arts, so be it.  When we go back to the roots of where our art comes from, we will finally deepen our understanding of what it really means to practice a KMA.  Again, we don't need to make stuff up... 



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> Right now there are still many KMAists tied up in this identity crisis or slinging political mud.


This, in my opinion, comes from standardization.  The eclectic nature of KMA makes it very difficult to form a list of "approved" techniques.  I have had the priveledge of training with some very competent Korean MAists and each of these instructors was good at various aspects of KMA and not so good at others.  If one were to ask these men and women to form a list of "approved" techniques, one might get completely different lists because the base of KMAs is soooo broad and eclectic.  Thus, the fight begins.  Who is right?  Who is wrong?  That's not Korean!  My art is a great example of this.  Look at all of the federations that splintered from Hwang Kee's Moo Duk Kwan.  In my opinion, the fighting began in earnest once things were codified/standardized, because it is by its vary nature, an exclusionary process.



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> How, in your opinion, can we bring KMA back into being formidable martial arts (besides TKD)? Keep our community alive?


I will speak for my art, Tang Soo Do, and others can speak for theirs.  I would like to see a Tang Soo Do Federation that has loose guidelines and embraces the eclectic nature of KMA.  I would like to see different dojangs involved in the practice of TSD practice different things and talk about why they practice them...not argue about whether or not they are TSD.  I would like to see gatherings and seminars where people come together and share their unique flavors and embrace the difference.  In the end, I think the diversity of opinions will make our arts stronger.

Here is my disclaimer...I acheived my status of certified instructor (kyosanim) only three years earlier.  I am lacking in rank and experience when it comes to my seniors and I don't want it to seem as if I am being overly critical or judgemental.  My dojang is small, rather isolated, and independent...so there will be a lot of things that I just don't understand regarding the politics of my art.  Keep this in mind and take this for what its worth.


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## Brad Dunne (Aug 25, 2005)

Originally Posted by *shesulsa*
_How, in your opinion, can we bring KMA back into being formidable martial arts (besides TKD)? Keep our community alive?_

_Not really sure what you mean by (besides TKD)? The KMA's unto themselves (depending upon the instructor) are formidable martial arts. The major problem with them is that American capitalism has taken over. Too many organizations, high dans (mostly Korean) and way to much mis-information pertaining to where and when and by whom. _

_The KMA's are not alone here. Just a cursory investigation will show just about every other faction of the arts falls into the same boat._


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## rmclain (Aug 26, 2005)

This really depends on the the teacher.  Everyone has roots somewhere.  You have a father, a grandfather, a great-grandfather.  Hopefully in your life you have educated yourself and "reached further" than they were able to reach.  This is due to learning from them and standing on their shoulders, then reaching further in your own life.

The martial arts should be the same.  But, this takes dedication, sweat, and serious study.  Art belongs to the people that practice it, not to a country.  Appreciate the teachers that came before you and give them credit.  But, use their lessons as a foundation to build upon.

R. McLain


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 26, 2005)

ave_turuta said:
			
		

> I think one of the problems we all face is the difficult of accepting the (imho) very rigid approach to the link between a particular art and the national culture linked to it. [snip] Claims to purity and authenticity are often derived from stiff ideologies elaborated for a variety of reasons: xenophobic nationalism being one of them. I would much rather see the martial arts as an evolving practice that reflect the richness and variety of human experience and from which we all have a great deal to learn. Politics in the dojang do not interest me
> 
> Respectfully,
> A.T.




Bingo.

Isn't it amazing how so many of us embrace Korean politics and accept unquestioningly everything that is fed us?

Korean nationalism has attempted to distance the arts from any Japanese influence whatsoever.  Prior to the Japanese occupation the indigenous Korean arts were in decline.  As a part of Japan's "Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere," Korean students were taught Japanese arts and practiced them to the exclusion of others.  The impact on the arts we practice today was profound.

Following the war, however, we find a mythic history of the arts blossoming.  Japanese influence is minimized and a whole generation of Koreans and westerners are being told that the arts are ancient systems resurrected after having been suppressed.  One revisionist history I'd read in a magazine years ago had Hapkido being the source of Aikido...not the other way around.

A first step in solving this identity crisis is for us--westerners--to recognize we're not Korean and not subject to their political biases.  We don't have to accept current mythical histories claiming hallowed Hanophilic antiquity for our arts--and we certainly don't have to buy into them because our masters told us to.  We need first accept truth for authority, not authority for truth.

Look at some of the posts here on M.T.    "My master said" pops up from time to time.   Since when did the title "master" empower a man or woman to have control over our thoughts?  


Regards,



Steve


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