# Question on different stick fight styles



## Alan0354 (Aug 27, 2021)

Hi

I have been looking on youtube on stick fight. I yet to find any style that hold the stick with two hands like Katana. I am practicing using two hands like Katana because it enables me to hit harder, using a 20oz cane to add the stopping power. Did I miss a style that using two hands?

It seems that there's mainly two different stick fight styles, the most popular one is Philippine keli/arnis, then there is Irish stick fight. That's about all I see. Irish stick fight is very different, it actually like jabs in punching, it jabs out, let the other end of the stick to bounce on the forearm to stop the stick and bounce back to launch the second jab faster. Then they use a lot of two hand with thumbs facing each other close to the middle of the stick and hit with either end like punching.

It seems the keli/arnis is better because it actually swing the stick, it should hit harder. But I'll let you experts comment on this as I don't know much of Irish stick fight.

I actually started out practice keli/arnis use single hand. After 3 months, I just feel it's not powerful enough because the heaviest stick I can use is about 13oz. I know most keli sticks are as light as 6oz in order to get the speed. The youtube video that convince me to switch to two hands was one on competition. The two guys just non stop hitting each other for the whole duration of the fight, they don't even worry about blocking, just kept swinging and landing!!!! This is NOT the way I want to use for self defense. I cannot afford to wack the guy and he just look and say "ouch"!!! I switched to two hand katana style right on that day!!! I am not that strong, BUT I don't think I am that weak judging from the weight I pushed in the gym compare to people around. 13.5oz stick is about the max I feel comfortable with one hand, any heavier just slowing me down and harder to control. That's already at least 4oz heavier than the normal thick keli sticks. Still, it's not 20oz!!! Also, it is so much easy to loss the stick during the fight when swinging with one hand than with two.

On top, I try doing casting with one hand, it's hard. You can cast out, reach the max distance, but after the hit, pulling back is a lot harder compare to two hands. I find single hand stick needs a lot more open space because the swing is wider. With two hands, I can control much better. Particular on casting, I can generate more power without starting with a wide swing, then after the peak of the power, I can pull back easier without having to let the stick keep swinging. Bottom line, two hands result in more compact movement and can be use in tighter space without worrying about hitting things in the surrounding as much. BUT why nobody use two hands?

This is how I feel, please comment and correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks


----------



## isshinryuronin (Aug 27, 2021)

Not an expert on this, but the following should lead you to what you are looking for, though you did not say whether you're looking for sport, art or self-defense applications. 

Look at jo and kenjitsu.  Also look at aikido as some of their dojo teach this as well.  The last two will emulate sword techniques.  The jo will be for a variety of situations.  These weapons will be 3.5-4 ft long and are usually held in two hands.  The wood baton, though shorter, has a number of two handed techniques as well. 

The FMA sticks will be about 2 feet long, used with one hand, and used much differently than the Japanese based sticks, mostly following the knife and empty hand movements of kali/escrimi.  The shorter sticks are more practical for common self-defense while the longer ones are mostly traditional weapons, though still can be useful for self-def situations.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 27, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Not an expert on this, but the following should lead you to what you are looking for, though you did not say whether you're looking for sport, art or self-defense applications.
> 
> Look at jo and kenjitsu.  Also look at aikido as some of their dojo teach this as well.  The last two will emulate sword techniques.  The jo will be for a variety of situations.  These weapons will be 3.5-4 ft long and are usually held in two hands.  The wood baton, though shorter, has a number of two handed techniques as well.
> 
> The FMA sticks will be about 2 feet long, used with one hand, and used much differently than the Japanese based sticks, mostly following the knife and empty hand movements of kali/escrimi.  The shorter sticks are more practical for common self-defense while the longer ones are mostly traditional weapons, though still can be useful for self-def situations.


Thanks for the reply.

I am mainly looking for self defense. I'll look into those. I thought Kali sticks are like 28" long, I bought a few pairs, they are all that long. They are between 6 to 7oz for the 1" diameter ones. My cane is 30"  long. My cane is United Cutlery Night watchman, made of nylon and it's heavy, even at 30", it's 20oz already. I have rattan canes, it's 1 1/8" thick, it's only 11.5oz for 30" long. They are very light.


----------



## Bobbycat (Aug 27, 2021)

I would prefer a rattan cane. I trained some tricks with it for self defense before my abroad trip. I think self defense with a cane is more technical work than the impact power. Because of that the lighter cane is better for different applications. Internet is full with different cane applications and, from my point of view, 15-20 applications would be sufficient for most situations.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 27, 2021)

Bobbycat said:


> I would prefer a rattan cane. I trained some tricks with it for self defense before my abroad trip. I think self defense with a cane is more technical work than the impact power. Because of that the lighter cane is better for different applications. Internet is full with different cane applications and, from my point of view, 15-20 applications would be sufficient for most situations.


I started out with pure Kali style using rattan cane with single hand. I learned all the swinging and all.

I just found it doesn't have enough power. You might be able to land a few hits, but if you cannot drop the person, it's not going to do any good. Like I said, I change my mind when I saw the video of two people hitting each other over and over and over for like 2 minutes before I stopped watching. They were going at it in full power and didn't even slow down the opponent after 2 minutes!!! Good for competition and matches, not good for self defense.

I have quite a few rattan canes, they are quite big compare to the ones they use in Kali matches. They are 1 1/8" diameter and 11.5oz. I had the seller specifically chosen the biggest and heaviest ones for me. That's very very heavy for rattan. Still, when I use them to hit the heavy bag with one hand, it's not hitting hard. You should hear the difference in sound between the rattan vs my Nylon Night Watchman with two hands that is 20oz.

If I swing full power with the Night Watchman, do you think the one holding the rattan cane can stop the blow even if he block it with the rattan cane. My suspicion is my Night Watchman swing with both hands will blow right through the block and hit the person.

Also, the Night Watchman comes with a very hard rubber tip that is 2/3oz heavy. It's hard and heavy, this will further increase the hitting power.
UnitedCutlery.Com: Night Watchman Premium Adjustable Walking Cane - UC3129

I cut the hook away to make it look very innocent and cut down to 30". Here are my Night Watchman, one with cushioned head for hitting the heavy bag.





You can see I have rope for going around my wrist to prevent the cane from flying off my hand. The rubber foot is so hard it lack traction on the ground. It's for hitting more than for walking!!!


----------



## Bobbycat (Aug 27, 2021)

Honestly, I do not think you cross canes with someone. Old people with canes are not aggressive. Usually, your opponent will be younger, quick and without a cane/stick but most likely with a knife or gun.  In these situations, speed is a king. If you want, you can ever kill somebody using a tip of your cane. Again, speed is a main advantage for any martial art, including cane skill.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 27, 2021)

That's why I concentrate on using two hands swing to get back the speed. I tried rattan with two hands, it's not much faster even it's a lot lighter. Key is two hands. Yes, if I swing the Night Watchman with one hand, it's slower, not with two hands. This is not like half the weight and you double the speed.

I recorded the one hand rattan stick 3 months ago:





I recorded the two hand with Night Watchman one month and half ago:





I don't think there is a big difference in speed.* I am slow,* whether it's rattan one hand or the heavy cane with two hands. So be that with the limitation, I might as well go two hands with heavier cane!!



I am doing it quite differently now since I learn casting from *Lamont Glass(Blindside)* here. This is his video, it's really good:





With casting, it's a lot more compact, much better in tighter space. I am still practicing hard on casting, I'll make another video when I get better.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> why nobody use two hands?


There is no difference between stick fight and sword fight. there are many 2 hands sword fighting styles.

https://i.postimg.cc/wBBtNX74/miao-diao-comb-hair.gif


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 27, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There is no difference between stick fight and sword fight. there are many 2 hands sword fighting styles.
> 
> https://i.postimg.cc/wBBtNX74/miao-diao-comb-hair.gif


I see a lot of difference, for sword, they use a lot of slicing, cutting and poking, not a lot of chopping like the blunt instrument. I watched katana, a lot of them are not useful for cane. You definitely wasting time learning those slicing and cutting. You cannot poke that hard with a cane or stick, it's not something you can rely on to stop the attacker. I tried a lot on the heavy bag, it just doesn't.


----------



## Bobbycat (Aug 27, 2021)

I learned some applications from this video




There are a lot of others.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I see a lot of difference, for sword, they use a lot of slicing, cutting and poking, not a lot of chopping like the blunt instrument. I watched katana, a lot of them are not useful for cane. You definitely wasting time learning those slicing and cutting. You cannot poke that hard with a cane or stick, it's not something you can rely on to stop the attacker. I tried a lot on the heavy bag, it just doesn't.


When I learned my sword/knife skill, I was asked to go into the woods and use my sword to chop down 1000 branches. From the chopping skill point of view, the sword skill and cane skill are the same.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 28, 2021)

I have been looking for Kendo on youtube, I watch ( say skip forward) quite a few of them.






You can see on the right of the screen a whole bunch of related videos if you pull down the menu of Mix-Kendo Guide.

It is SOOOOOO *Boring*!! The movement is SOOOOOOO *Stiff*. It's like you have to do it exactly to do a straight chop down!!! This really remind me of those chinese kung fu that you have to have everything EXACTLY in the right position, not too wide, not to high, not too low, not too this and not too that...................

Call me ignorant, all the videos on one vertical chop down, they don't use the shoulder, waist to concentrate the force, just up.....down......up. I am not so sure I want to learn two hands strike from Japanese Kendo!!! Does it even produce enough power for blunt instrument like a cane? Maybe with a sharp sword, it might work well. But I prefer what I have been practicing.

I know I am new, only about 1/2 year of practice. But I have been into kick boxing type for years, I learned you use a lot of synergy to focus the force to one point like casting shown by Lamont Glass's video. That's how you generate a lot of force focus at the point you hit. I don't buy what I see in the Kendo videos.

I was very patient watching quite a few of the Kendo videos, I can't take it anymore. Unlike the* FMA Kali,* I really learn from those videos and just straight translate to two hand swinging. *It just make so much more sense*.

I truly never thought of it this way until today.    Maybe I find my answer talking in this thread, I am just doing *Kali, but with two hands* to use the heavy cane for extra power.   I do learn a little from Irish stick fight holding with both hands close to the middle of the cane and hit with both ends of the cane like doing jab and reverse punch in punching for close distance.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 28, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> It is SOOOOOO *Boring*!!


You should learn the principle.

For example, to use a circular move to guide your opponent's sword away, you then attack the opening that you have just created. If you understand this principle, you can map it into many techniques.



			https://i.postimg.cc/wBBtNX74/miao-diao-comb-hair.gif


----------



## frank raud (Aug 29, 2021)

You would be better off to hold a cane like a baseball bat than like a katana.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 29, 2021)

frank raud said:


> You would be better off to hold a cane like a baseball bat than like a katana.


thanks

This is what I have been doing before. Now I go a big step from this. The reason is swinging like a baseball bet tends to over swing if I miss the target and lose balance, and risk losing the cane. I since practice cast like Lamont Glass show in the 3rd video in post #7 where I concentrate the power to one point, then pull back the still while it's still circling around. This not only prevent over swing, it recover faster to launch a second strike. This is quite hard, I've been practicing a lot for two or three weeks already, still, it's not good enough.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 29, 2021)

One important stick principle is the moment that your stick hit on your opponent's stick, the moment that your stick slide along his stick, and hit his hand.

You can train this principle by hitting on a tree trunk, and then scratch the tree skin off.


----------



## Bobbycat (Aug 29, 2021)

Important moment is a first unexpected strike from your opponent. If your stick is very heavy, you will not defense yourself from this strike.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You cannot poke that hard with a cane or stick,


Not if you put this at the end of your stick.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 29, 2021)

Bobbycat said:


> Important moment is a first unexpected strike from your opponent. If your stick is very heavy, you will not defense yourself from this strike.


I practice a lot on first move from neutral cane on the floor, pick up and strike. It's not much difference between a light cane and the heavier cane. That's more on situation awareness than the weight.

Speaking of the weight of the cane, it's not as if I choose a 20oz cane, there's no in between ones that I like. Rattan cane top out at about 13oz, I have 4 already, to get to 14oz, the rattan has to be really thick and it's not easy to find one at all.

I do NOT trust wood cane. I bought a cheap one from Amazon, I hit the bag, it did not last 2 minutes before it cracked and break into two.

So the next one up is the Nylon cane from United Cutlery that I am using now. I bought more than 10 canes already. I bought a few Nylon canes, I even DRILLED 3/8" hole at the center of the tip of the cane, I drilled like 8" deep to shed of like 2/3oz of weight. I tried it all. For a while, I did not even put the hard rubber tip on to save 2/3oz.

It is NOT easy to buy canes. this is my collection:




The only in-between ones are Cold Steel fiber glass stick that is about 13.5oz for the longer one. Problem with them is it's very thin. I wrapped some with padding for hitting the heavy bags to protect the heavy bags. These are not cheap canes, other than the first one on the right, all the others are $40 or over each. The most expensive ones are the Cold Steel, they are like $79 each. AND I have to modify a lot to make them "look" more friendly and ordinary so they don't stand out.

It's not as if I don't try to get something a little lighter. It would be nice to get one that is like 16oz and can take the abuse I put them through. The two Nylon one with yellow padding at the tip are the two I messed up drilling the hole in the middle. It's not easy to drill a deep straight hole into a stick beyond 7 to 8". You have to drill very straight down the middle of the stick. I messed up and the hole drilled off center and drifted to the side when it got deeper. I just use them for hitting the bags. So far, they stand up to the abuse. Those Nylon canes are very tough.

BTW, if you watch the middle video in post #7, you'll see I am pretty much doing all the things the video you showed in post #14. That was done over a month ago. Like I said, I moved on quite a bit since.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 29, 2021)

You may be interested in the sword breaker.





or the iron whip.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may be interested in the sword breaker.
> 
> View attachment 27176
> 
> ...


Ha ha, this looks worst( as like a weapon) than my Nylon cane in the original form before I made them more "friendly" looking:





I had to cut off the hook to make it look friendly.


----------



## Argus (Aug 31, 2021)

This thread is all over the place, but I want to challenge some assumptions:

1. That a single stick lacks power
This is simply not true, but you may have this impression because of a few factors:

#1 - In Kali, lightweight rattan sticks are used as training implements for safety and durability. For actual combat and duels, much heavier hardwood sticks and swords were used. A fighting weight sword or stick will be on average 500-700 grams -- a good two to three times heavier, and way, way harder than your typical rattan stick, which weighs only around 200 grams. For sparring, many people use even lighter weight rattan sticks, around 140 grams. Add on top of this the fact that rattan is very flexible, and not nearly as hard as a good hardwood stick, and you can see why they don't break bones, and therefore are good for training (rather than actual use). I actually made a thread for discussion of this point in the FMA Discussion board.

#2 - There are a lot of very stupid stick fights, because people gear up with masks and hand protection, pick up extra light weight rattan sticks, and then proceed to ignore eachother's hits simply because they don't hurt badly enough. This is just a stupid way of sparring. If you wear protective gear and use extra light weight sticks in order not to hurt each other, that's great, but you should understand and respect the damage that a real weapon can do to an unarmored person.

You can very easily break hands, legs, heads, ribs, and collarbones with a hard wood stick and even half decent body mechanics. In fact, you can even do that with a rattan stick of average weight against targets such as the hands, head, and collarbone -- maybe also the knee. A solid blow to the head should generally be considered lethal, especially if using a hardwood.

2. That swords and sticks are the same
They're not really, though many of the principles can be applied in a similar manner, but even within the Filipino Martial Arts, if you compare predominantly stick fighting systems with predominantly blade oriented systems (Kali Ilustrisimo being an excellent example of a blade based art), they are very different. You do not need to generate nearly as much raw power with a blade, because, well, it's sharp, and it goes in the target very, very easily -- especially the tip. It doesn't take much to sever the tendons, or to effortlessly plunge the point into one's adversary. The same is true of Japanese sword arts. Bladed arts typically use smaller, and more efficient thrusts and cuts. Because large swings and chambered striking positions are not necessary to generate power, your weapon can spend a lot more time on the centerline, where it can both deflect incoming attacks, and attack or threaten your opponent.

You can't be nearly this efficient with a stick:









And, just so you know the chopping power of a blade:





As for two handed use of longer sticks, I would actually look into Jodo or Shinto Muso Ryu. Due to the sheer weight of a hardwood walking staff, and the use of two hands, you can be more efficient with this weapon, too, than you would with a typical stick.




Jodo is a simplified version of this. But, my impression is that the OP may not appreciate very formal Japanese arts, and Jodo isn't common outside of Japan anyway, so I might also recommend looking into HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts). Both Longsword and Staff systems exist in HEMA and may be closest to what the OP is looking for?


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

Argus said:


> This thread is all over the place, but I want to challenge some assumptions:
> 
> 1. That a single stick lacks power
> This is simply not true, but you may have this impression because of a few factors:
> ...


Hi Argus

It's getting late, so I only address #1, I have to watch the video before I comment on the rest.

In short, two hands swing definitely hit harder. This is because one can use a heavier stick with two hands than with just one hand. I consider myself average strength, with single hand, about 14oz stick is the heaviest I can swing with good speed. I can swing a 20oz stick with one hand, but definitely can't get the velocity as with two hands. Also, I can feel the momentum of the heavy stick will pull me and hard to recover from the swing.With two hands, I can swing a 20oz stick with the same speed as 14oz with one hand. If you say in actual combat, people use 500 to 700gm, which is 16oz to 25oz, they got to be slowing down, no as excited to watch than with light stick. Of cause you can swing a 25oz stick/sword, unless the person is very strong, how slow will they swing?

The law of physics governs that the power or momentum of 20oz vs 14 oz is 20/14 = *1.43 times higher with a 20oz stick IF* the velocity is the same. I can definitely feel the difference when hitting the heavy bag.  Now, if one can swing 20oz stick at the same velocity as two hands, then yes, the power is the same. So by the fact the one can swing a heavier stick with the same velocity with both hands, two hands swinging definitely hits harder.

The second and to me is even more important. If you swing with one hand like Kali, lets say starting from above right shoulder swinging diagonally down towards the left side of the body, then continue to circle back up to the left shoulder to complete the full cycle of the swing. This is how typical Kali does. The circle is quite big. This is NOT an issue during a competition or match because you have a clear stage with nothing in the way. You can swing freely without worrying of hitting tables or chairs, you have a big open space. BUT in self defense when the space is not open with people and stuffs around, you swing a big circle with likely hit something and cause you to lose your stick. In real life, space can be confined like in the hallway or stairs, you really cannot do big circle swing.

This is where two hands swing is really superior. First, the stick is much more secure when holding with two hands. Second, with two hands, you can control the stick a lot better, you don't need to swing as big a circle as single hand and make it more compact thereby less chance of hitting stuff around and can work in a confined space like hallway or stairs.

With two hands, it's easier to do casting and pull back the stick after swing passed the focus point to make the circle even smaller. It is harder to do casting with one hand and pull back is even harder. That's the reason the circle swung by one hand has to be bigger.

I have been practicing one hand for 3 months and switched to two hands, it is easier to control the stick, what I described is my personal experience from almost 3 months of practicing with both hands. It is so much harder to control the stick with one hand than with two hands.


----------



## Argus (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Hi Argus
> 
> It's getting late, so I only address #1, I have to watch the video before I comment on the rest.
> 
> ...



I agree on most of your points, but I would add that, at least for me, it is the length of the weapon which most dictates whether using one or two hands is appropriate. Wielding a very short weapon with two hands is quite awkward and offers very little benefit, even limiting your maneuverability and power generation -- unless you just so happen to have use of a certain "bayonet" style techniques (which, btw, are on of the more practical ways of employing something like an umbrella, I feel, but getting off track here) whilst weilding longer weapons, such as a cane or walking stick, or something the length of a full sized bokuto, two hands becomes both more appropriate and controllable.

For the length of the cane that I think you are using, I agree that two hands is probably a better approach. I also agree with the advantage of being able to stop a strike on the centerline and not making a large circle. If you watch the Shinto Muso Ryu / Jodo video that I posted, you'll see that being done. I really love the way Shinto Muso Ryu makes use of centerline theory, in much the same way as Kali Ilustrisimo.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 31, 2021)

It has just occured to me that the diffrent "styles" of staff in FMA, may be based on diffrent stick designs, there is one that is apparntly based upon the whipping motion of fishing rods (the sort without the reel, forgot their name).   So it begs the question if that ones based on fishing poles made out of willow (or their equal) or something like that, and if another "style" is based on their equal or a Quaterstaff etc. 


Also if its not been mentioned, FMA/Arnis/Kali/escrima is the general term, there are MANY diffrent form of combat in the filipines, like there are langauges.     There is also Modern Sport Arnis, not to be confused with any other sort.    The term FMA, should be treated as a general term for all the mrtial arts in the filipines, and maybe ones influcned by them and connected to them. 

Although, given most european staff sytems are with hardwood, and their training would be just having people out of mesure with each other, as opposed to using soft wood sticks.  Im open to correction, but i cant think of a european equal to Rattan for example, we arent blessed to ahve asoft wood that makes a decent training weapon.


----------



## jergar (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> That's why I concentrate on using two hands swing to get back the speed. I tried rattan with two hands, it's not much faster even it's a lot lighter. Key is two hands. Yes, if I swing the Night Watchman with one hand, it's slower, not with two hands. This is not like half the weight and you double the speed.
> 
> I recorded the one hand rattan stick 3 months ago:
> 
> ...


Hi Alan your strikes are good , you need to work on putting them to targets, like right swing across your body targets the hand the arm or side of opponent’s neck ,head, don’t stand in front of your opponent step to the same side as your opponent’s strike as you strike this will add body weight to your strike, your going to trade a little speed for accuracy. Since your training solo you’ll have to visualize hitting the different targets. Hope this helps! Peace.


----------



## angelariz (Aug 31, 2021)

The length of the weapon and the range of the target will determine the type of  grip. You can bunt, you can slash, you can poke, you can push with the ends. All of these things will be in different grips to some extent.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

Argus said:


> I agree on most of your points, but I would add that, at least for me, it is the length of the weapon which most dictates whether using one or two hands is appropriate. Wielding a very short weapon with two hands is quite awkward and offers very little benefit, even limiting your maneuverability and power generation -- unless you just so happen to have use of a certain "bayonet" style techniques (which, btw, are on of the more practical ways of employing something like an umbrella, I feel, but getting off track here) whilst weilding longer weapons, such as a cane or walking stick, or something the length of a full sized bokuto, two hands becomes both more appropriate and controllable.
> 
> For the length of the cane that I think you are using, I agree that two hands is probably a better approach. I also agree with the advantage of being able to stop a strike on the centerline and not making a large circle. If you watch the Shinto Muso Ryu / Jodo video that I posted, you'll see that being done. I really love the way Shinto Muso Ryu makes use of centerline theory, in much the same way as Kali Ilustrisimo.


I agree 100%. One of the reason I have so many sticks is because I need longer and longer sticks. As I get stronger, I increase the length of the stick. I am about to buy more new Night Watchman cane and cut it longer as it's getting easy now.

Two hands definitely not going to work for short stick, I have a few of those collapsible baton, they are 21" long, I try to practice at night where I don't want to make a scene, it just doesn't work at all. My cane is 30", longer than the Kali sticks(most 26" to max 28"). It makes a difference for that 2 extra inches. Even 26" stick feels funny swinging with 2 hands.

I have to watch the Lodo video. Just finish part of my cane exercise.

Thanks


----------



## angelariz (Sep 1, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I agree 100%. One of the reason I have so many sticks is because I need longer and longer sticks. As I get stronger, I increase the length of the stick. I am about to buy more new Night Watchman cane and cut it longer as it's getting easy now.
> 
> Two hands definitely not going to work for short stick, I have a few of those collapsible baton, they are 21" long, I try to practice at night where I don't want to make a scene, it just doesn't work at all. My cane is 30", longer than the Kali sticks(most 26" to max 28"). It makes a difference for that 2 extra inches. Even 26" stick feels funny swinging with 2 hands.
> 
> ...


I have had better results with a shorter weapon. The longer sticks are easier to grab. They might be a more powerful strike with a two hand swing. You should  spar with sticks and enequal weapons to see the pros and cons as it applies to sticks, canes, walking sticks, canne de combat...etc

A lot of people have ideas that are turned upside down as soon as they log in a few hours sparing.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 1, 2021)

angelariz said:


> I have had better results with a shorter weapon. The longer sticks are easier to grab. They might be a more powerful strike with a two hand swing. You should  spar with sticks and enequal weapons to see the pros and cons as it applies to sticks, canes, walking sticks, canne de combat...etc
> 
> A lot of people have ideas that are turned upside down as soon as they log in a few hours sparing.


That's something to think about. Problem is who am I going to spar with? I don't think there is a school that is open, also, two hands is not common to learn.

Hopefully 30" is kind of in the middle. I do not want a longer staff. Like I said, in real live situation, one doesn't have open space to swing around, usually the surrounding is cluttered and confined. I even been practicing holding the cane with two hands *farther apart* to shorten the front of the stick to hit object closer by than normal. This is another big advantage of two hands swinging, I can literally adjust the length of the stick on the fly. I don't think one hand swing can do that this easy.

I am right hand forward, so all I have to do is slide my right hand towards the front of the stick and keep my left hand where it is, I literally shorten the stick for striking.

Thanks


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 1, 2021)

angelariz said:


> The length of the weapon and the range of the target will determine the type of  grip. You can bunt, you can slash, you can poke, you can push with the ends. All of these things will be in different grips to some extent.


You know what, this morning I experiment with a lighter stick with two hands after reading all your posts, I want to see again how different is the power when striking the heavy bag. I use my 11oz rattan cane compare to the 20oz cane. Of cause there is some difference, BUT the rattan is NOT exactly a wimp, it still made a pretty nice sound and I can still feel the force. Maybe the speed is faster with the lighter cane even swinging with two hands.

The control is definitely better with the rattan cane and recovery time is definitely faster. I guess I have to fine a "sweet" weight of the cane. I took off the rubber foot that save 2/3oz, more importantly, it's at the tip where it has the biggest effect on the momentum and make it harder to recover from a swing. We'll see what happen.

I might even look for a super heavy rattan cane. It would be nice if I can find one that is 15oz when cut down to 30". I might even try the old Nylon cane that I cut down to 29" and drill a 3/8" hole that is 6" deep to reduce the weight. That one must be like 17oz only. Only problem is 29" is too short to use as a cane to walk, but I really don't need a cane .


----------



## frank raud (Sep 2, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You cannot poke that hard with a cane or stick, it's not something you can rely on to stop the attacker. I tried a lot on the heavy bag, it just doesn't.


Why can't you poke that hard with a cane or stick?  I know I can put a serious dent in a car door with a cane, and am sure I could bust ribs with a short stroke with a cane or stick. If anything, because you are concentrating all the power of the thrust into an area of less than 1", a poke should be at least as powerful as a swing.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2021)

frank raud said:


> Why can't you poke that hard with a cane or stick?  I know I can put a serious dent in a car door with a cane, and am sure I could bust ribs with a short stroke with a cane or stick. If anything, because you are concentrating all the power of the thrust into an area of less than 1", a poke should be at least as powerful as a swing.


I don't know, it just is. This is a video of me hitting the heavy bags, the poking is not as hard:






Maybe you can give me some pointers how to poke hard.


----------



## Blindside (Sep 2, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't know, it just is. This is a video of me hitting the heavy bags, the poking is not as hard:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It might not feel as hard as a swing but remember you are concentrating a lot of force into a small area.  I have broken bones with a punyo (butt of the stick) strike that I don't even remember throwing, and that was at short range without a big windup.  Two handed is going to hit hard, when practicing spear work you have to be careful on your thrusts to not to hit too hard, the cane is no different, just shorter.

Also you need to put more torso rotation into your thrusts, you are mostly arm thrusting right now.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 2, 2021)

Blindside said:


> Also you need to put more torso rotation into your thrusts, you are mostly arm thrusting right now.


Torso rotation and/or forward body movement with the thrust. Keeping his elbows closer to his body as he thrusts would also help.


----------



## Bobbycat (Sep 2, 2021)

Damage is proportional to kinetic energy (1/2 mass x squared speed). So, speed is more effective killer than mass. I believe that, using a rattan cane, speed will be higher, especially along a short trajectory. Just train speed  and you will be fine with any canes.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't know, it just is. This is a video of me hitting the heavy bags, the poking is not as hard:
> 
> Maybe you can give me some pointers how to poke hard.


You're using a subjective measurement of impact force, which isn't very accurate. And you're forgetting that the poke concentrates the impact into a fraction of the area. Go poke a bag with your finger. Now poke it with an ice pick. See the difference?


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 2, 2021)

Blindside said:


> It might not feel as hard as a swing but remember you are concentrating a lot of force into a small area.  I have broken bones with a punyo (butt of the stick) strike that I don't even remember throwing, and that was at short range without a big windup.  Two handed is going to hit hard, when practicing spear work you have to be careful on your thrusts to not to hit too hard, the cane is no different, just shorter.
> 
> Also you need to put more torso rotation into your thrusts, you are mostly arm thrusting right now.


Not just on the thrusts, but with the swings as well.   Best if it comes from the feet.  What little rotation I see is beginning at the shoulders, which means not much actually happening there.  It’s all arms.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2021)

Yeh, I need to put more torso into the poke, I just use my hands only.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2021)

Bobbycat said:


> Damage is proportional to kinetic energy (1/2 mass x squared speed). So, speed is more effective killer than mass. I believe that, using a rattan cane, speed will be higher, especially along a short trajectory. Just train speed  and you will be fine with any canes.


Yes, I notice I need shorter trajectory for rattan cane. The heavy cane definitely still hit harder, but it take more winding up and longer to slow down after the hit. The rattan just has a faster recovery time and attack time. Question is where is the balance.

I did everything to lighten the heavy stick. Now they weight in at 18oz. It helps a little. My issue is Rattan is way too light. The place that sells thick rattan canes are out of stock. Apparently not too many people want heavy rattan cane or sticks. I want rattan canes that is at least 13oz after cutting down to 30". That means the rattan has to be at least 1 1/8 inch diameter or bigger  AND with *skin*. That's huge for rattan.

Those rattan canes that are available on ebay are like 7/8" thick 8 to 9 oz. That's just not good enough.


----------



## Blindside (Sep 2, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, I notice I need shorter trajectory for rattan cane. The heavy cane definitely still hit harder, but it take more winding up and longer to slow down after the hit. The rattan just has a faster recovery time and attack time. Question is where is the balance.
> 
> I did everything to lighten the heavy stick. Now they weight in at 18oz. It helps a little. My issue is Rattan is way too light. The place that sells thick rattan canes are out of stock. Apparently not too many people want heavy rattan cane or sticks. I want rattan canes that is at least 13oz after cutting down to 30". That means the rattan has to be at least 1 1/8 inch diameter or bigger  AND with *skin*. That's huge for rattan.
> 
> Those rattan canes that are available on ebay are like 7/8" thick 8 to 9 oz. That's just not good enough.


At Dog Brothers I fight with a 10 ounce 30 or 31 inch rattan stick.  I have TKO'd guys through fencing masks with them, have broken hands, and have first hand evidence that if you whack someone on the side of the knee they don't want to stay standing.  If I am using it for self-defense I would want a heavier stick too, more importantly I don't want rattan, we use rattan to not break more things on each other.  Rattan absorbs force, don't use it for a self defense weapon, a rattan stick is a training tool.


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 2, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I have been looking for Kendo on youtube, I watch ( say skip forward) quite a few of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have to practice kendo for a long time before you appreciate what it really is. You only have to practice without pads against a strong opponent for two minutes to realize how stupid you were.


----------



## Blindside (Sep 2, 2021)

Unkogami said:


> You have to practice kendo for a long time before you appreciate what it really is. You only have to practice without pads against a strong opponent for two minutes to realize how stupid you were.



Yup, I just had to fight against it to appreciate it.   
Good old DB video that is pertinent to this thread.  @Alan0354  Watch how little power it took to crack ribs on a thrust.  Pertinent footage at 1:00.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 2, 2021)

You may get some flesh idea from this clip.


----------



## Blindside (Sep 2, 2021)

For two handed short staff/long stick work you might look at Tapado, these are just some examples.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 3, 2021)

Blindside said:


> For two handed short staff/long stick work you might look at Tapado, these are just some examples.


Now I know, what I am practicing is very much Tapado. I'll check and see whether there is any school in my area.

This is really what I want as I just took the single hand Kali and do it with 2 hands. Tapado seems to be the same idea.

One thing, they don't use any casting. I like casting even better, more compact, not wide swing. I am still practicing hard, it's not easy to do it good. My issue is more on hitting the leg, it's much easier to do casting if I hit the upper body. The movement of hitting the lower leg is more complicate, I have to lunge forward and lower my body, strike with casting, make sure I use torso, then pull the stick back after passing the aiming point. Still working on this one.

I don't see in single hand nor 2 hands using casting in any video yet, did you invent it or you learn from someone?

I am practicing more on hitting the legs than to the head. First, you don't kill someone hitting the legs but it's just as effective. Secondary, it's hard for the opponent to grab the stick if you hit low. I am going to practice using the waist to generate more power when poke and see what happen.

Thanks


----------



## Blindside (Sep 3, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Now I know, what I am practicing is very much Tapado. I'll check and see whether there is any school in my area.
> 
> This is really what I want as I just took the single hand Kali and do it with 2 hands. Tapado seems to be the same idea.
> 
> ...



I certainly didn't invent it (casting).  Learned a bit of it from the dabbling I did in longsword and part of it was from the short staff work that I do in PTK, I don't think it is particularly unusual.

Filipino martial arts in general are a niche art but Tapado is an even smaller subset within that, the odds of you finding a local Tapado group is incredibly low.  Where are you again?


----------



## frank raud (Sep 3, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't know, it just is. This is a video of me hitting the heavy bags, the poking is not as hard:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 4, 2021)

Blindside said:


> I certainly didn't invent it (casting).  Learned a bit of it from the dabbling I did in longsword and part of it was from the short staff work that I do in PTK, I don't think it is particularly unusual.
> 
> Filipino martial arts in general are a niche art but Tapado is an even smaller subset within that, the odds of you finding a local Tapado group is incredibly low.  Where are you again?


I am in San Jose Ca. area.

I am surprise FMA is not more common. I did not set out to like FMA Kali. I was looking at different videos like Irish stick fight, Japanese Kendo and other swords and all ( of cause I looked at Chinese stuffs as I am a Chinese!!!). I just attracted to Kali. It just make more sense, it's very smooth, continuous in a curve. I started single hand Kali for 3 months, felt that it lack power with single hand, went to two hand and pretty much copy what I learned in Kali. Irish stick fight is really funny, it hit like doing jabs in punching, then let the short end of the stick BOUNCE on the forearm to help pulling back. I just don't think it can hit very hard. Also, when using cane, I cannot switch the cane from hand to hand in Irish stick to strike as the other end of the cane is curved( crooked cane). Japan Kendo is too choppy, it chop straight, then forcefully pull the cane/sword back up straight. It's not smooth at all. All the motion is very choppy.

About Casting:   Somehow, I just never seen casting used in all the FMA video I've seen. I use kind of similar concept in punching, that's why when you talked about it, I just got it and never have second thoughts and just started changing how I swing all together and been practicing since. It just has so much advantage over the wide circular swing.

My practicing space is quite tight, multiple heavy bags, a speed bag and a hanging ball. If I swing like the normal Kali way, I'll be hitting a lot of things unintentionally. With casting, it's very clean, I hardly ever hit anything unintentionally. Like I said many times, for competition and match, you have a wide open flat space, you don't worry about hitting things in the surrounding. For self defense situation, the space is never open, full of tables, chairs, people and all that, Wide circular swing doesn't work. Casting is the answer.

I guess casting might not be as useful if you think about competition and match. But I am 100% committed in practicing casting.................Unless you have objection. Let me know.

Thanks


----------



## Nolo_Ferratus (Sep 4, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Hi
> 
> I have been looking on youtube on stick fight. I yet to find any style that hold the stick with two hands like Katana. I am practicing using two hands like Katana because it enables me to hit harder, using a 20oz cane to add the stopping power. Did I miss a style that using two hands?
> 
> ...


----------



## Nolo_Ferratus (Sep 4, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am in San Jose Ca. area.
> 
> I am surprise FMA is not more common. I did not set out to like FMA Kali. I was looking at different videos like Irish stick fight, Japanese Kendo and other swords and all ( of cause I looked at Chinese stuffs as I am a Chinese!!!). I just attracted to Kali. It just make more sense, it's very smooth, continuous in a curve. I started single hand Kali for 3 months, felt that it lack power with single hand, went to two hand and pretty much copy what I learned in Kali. Irish stick fight is really funny, it hit like doing jabs in punching, then let the short end of the stick BOUNCE on the forearm to help pulling back. I just don't think it can hit very hard. Also, when using cane, I cannot switch the cane from hand to hand in Irish stick to strike as the other end of the cane is curved( crooked cane). Japan Kendo is too choppy, it chop straight, then forcefully pull the cane/sword back up straight. It's not smooth at all. All the motion is very choppy.
> 
> ...


----------

