# UFC and such...



## Ninway J (Jan 17, 2004)

I haven't been keeping up with the UFC and all the other "real" fighting shows for the past few years, so I'm wondering...were there any CMA practitioners fighting in any of them?


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## 7starmantis (Jan 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ninway J _
> *I haven't been keeping up with the UFC and all the other "real" fighting shows for the past few years, so I'm wondering...were there any CMA practitioners fighting in any of them? *



I think I have seen maybe one guy here and there who lists general CMA or Kung Fu in their list of arts, but I haven't seen anyone I would call skilled in CMA fighting in them.

7sm


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## MantisMan (Feb 11, 2004)

Is it something to do with perception? Do the organisers see potential UFC candidates with a CMA background and think "little guy against giant muscled goliath - the public will never go for it!"

Because let's face it - apart from Bolo Yeung - are there any CMA stylists with an impressive build? Not that that is a necessity for effective combat, but do the organisers think these "little" guys are going to get ripped apart, and therefore prevent them from participating?

P.S. I'm now expecting a flood of replies (with pictures) from muscled-up kung fu men (and women - now THAT would be impressive).


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## 7starmantis (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MantisMan _
> *Is it something to do with perception? Do the organisers see potential UFC candidates with a CMA background and think "little guy against giant muscled goliath - the public will never go for it!"
> 
> Because let's face it - apart from Bolo Yeung - are there any CMA stylists with an impressive build? Not that that is a necessity for effective combat, but do the organisers think these "little" guys are going to get ripped apart, and therefore prevent them from participating?
> ...



This seems just a tad trollish to me. Even if you were talking about chinese people your steroetyping. I train with several "muscled-up" kung fu people. To say most CMA-ist are small people is to say most Judo practitioners are gay. Its just simply irrational and uneducated.

I consider myself pretty "muscled up" if thats a term I would use. Most of my training partners have at least 20 inch arms. The problem is your equating size or strength to fighting, and as we all know, there is not a direct coorelation between the two.

7sm


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## markulous (Feb 11, 2004)

I didn't take offense to your post or anything but my Sifu and I are both pretty decent sized guys.  We don't have huge upper bodys because that limits your mobility ALOT.  But I am 6'4" 200 lbs.


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## CloudChaser (Feb 11, 2004)

i'm curious, have there ever been any small-ish guys to win a UFC competition?  do the Gracie brothers count as 'smallish' guys? i believe they've had much success in these kinda slug-fest fights because of their superior groundfighting skills... 

i still think the movie, Bloodsport, was cool because of all the flashy fighters but that's hollywood for ya...  the UFC is not exactly pretty to watch, heh... 

and you know what, it just occurred to me that i've never seen a sparring tournament for kung fu ppl like you'd have for TKD or judo... am i wrong?


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## 7starmantis (Feb 11, 2004)

Well its hard when 90% of your techniques are knee kicks and eye gouges, to have a sparring tourny. I do San Shou but thats about as close as it gets I guess.

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Feb 11, 2004)

By the way, I think I would consider the Gracies as "smallish" but I don't think thats what mantis man was refering \to.

7sm


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MantisMan _
> *Is it something to do with perception? Do the organisers see potential UFC candidates with a CMA background and think "little guy against giant muscled goliath - the public will never go for it!"
> 
> Because let's face it - apart from Bolo Yeung - are there any CMA stylists with an impressive build? Not that that is a necessity for effective combat, but do the organisers think these "little" guys are going to get ripped apart, and therefore prevent them from participating?
> ...



The UFC does have weight classes now. This helps some in separating the large from the huge.

Or those that are fit for their frame and those that are also fit for their frame only have a larger frame.

:asian:


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## takadadojokeith (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ninway J _
> *I haven't been keeping up with the UFC and all the other "real" fighting shows for the past few years, so I'm wondering...were there any CMA practitioners fighting in any of them? *




The closest I've seen is a guy named Jhon Igo who fought in a shootboxing (punches, kicks, throws and subs allowed while standing-no ground fighting) a couple of times. I think he was a san-da guy, which is nearly the same as san shou (I think).


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## MantisMan (Feb 12, 2004)

> To say most CMA-ist are small people is to say most Judo practitioners are gay. Its just simply irrational and uneducated. - 7StarMantis



7Star,
Yes, my comments were a tad "trollish"  (nice word), but I think most people could see that I was talking in the context of the UFC, not in general. I am making an attempt to gather information concerning the selection process by which UFC candidates are chosen. On what grounds is that selection made? My point was one of "perception" - meaning I was enquiring how the selectors for UFC viewed candidates. I am pretty sure that size IS an issue for them. Hmm..I wonder if sexual proclivity might be too? 

I am a CMA practitioner myself, and I measure in at 6'2, and would consider myself anything but slight of build.

All,
I think it is a complete mystery to many CMAs that we don't see kung fu represented as a fighting art in such competitions. Competitions dominated (according to their rule systems) by muscular fighters who often specialise in the less "stylised", or less "regulated" arts - the more "realistic" arts. So we see arts that have been moved away from reality sparring, that still use kata as a large part of their training programs, and that train without full contact are pretty much absent from competitions like the UFC. We don't often see fighters listing Judo, Karate or Kung Fu amongst their methods.

Again, is this just perception? Do the fighters themselves *downplay* the training they may have had in these arts because their names no longer strike fear into their opponents?

I am such a spoon today. I stir for England.


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## 7starmantis (Feb 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MantisMan _
> *7Star,
> Yes, my comments were a tad "trollish"  (nice word), but I think most people could see that I was talking in the context of the UFC, not in general. I am making an attempt to gather information concerning the selection process by which UFC candidates are chosen. On what grounds is that selection made? My point was one of "perception" - meaning I was enquiring how the selectors for UFC viewed candidates. I am pretty sure that size IS an issue for them. Hmm..I wonder if sexual proclivity might be too? *



Maybe you should define your posts a bit more because your first statement was in the context of what others may think. Your second paragraph however was from your point of view..._"Because let's face it - apart from Bolo Yeung - are there any CMA stylists with an impressive build?"_. That is why I responded to you in the manner I did. Also, the "selection" process is not as much about body size as is experience and record. If its about body size than the guys fighting without pectoral muscles wouldn't be fighting no? 



> _Originally posted by MantisMan _
> *I think it is a complete mystery to many CMAs that we don't see kung fu represented as a fighting art in such competitions. Competitions dominated (according to their rule systems) by muscular fighters who often specialise in the less "stylised", or less "regulated" arts - the more "realistic" arts. So we see arts that have been moved away from reality sparring, that still use kata as a large part of their training programs, and that train without full contact are pretty much absent from competitions like the UFC. We don't often see fighters listing Judo, Karate or Kung Fu amongst their methods.*



Actually, I don't see it as a mystery at all. I think alot of it has to do with the time it takes a person to actually be skilled at CMA enough to fight at that level. Also, I see that most of the techniques I train in are not allowed in any "UFC" type event. The mindset we train with is that anything goes, that is not the mindset of any fighting organization. Most all of our kicks are knee, shin, groin, which are usually not allowed in a ring. Arm breaks, eye gouges, throat strikes, these are not allowed either. To train in these techniques in order to fight without them would be a practice in futility. Also the mindset of most extremely skilled CMAist is one of avoidance of violence. What is there left to prove after you have held a six hour horse stance and won gold in every main kung fu tourny in america and china?

JMO,
 7sm


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## MantisMan (Feb 12, 2004)

7sm,
I take the rebuke on stereotyping in the spirit it was intended. I will endevour to frame my responses in a more explicit manner in future. :asian: 

And here's another gold star for you. I did a quick search for the UFC fouls and here's a list of what's NOT allowed:
  Butting with the head. 
  Eye gouging of any kind. 
  Biting. 
  Hair pulling. 
  Fish hooking. 
  Groin attacks of any kind. 
  Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on   an opponent. 
  Small joint manipulation. 
  Striking to the spine or the back of the head. 
  Striking downward using the point of the elbow. 
  Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. 
  Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. 
  Grabbing the clavicle. 
  Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. 
  Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent. 
  Stomping a grounded opponent. 
  Kicking to the kidney with the heel. 
  Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. 
  Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area. 
  Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent. 

Sounds very restrictive, no? At least half of my current curriculum is barred! However, that still leaves other CMA specialisms: pressure point strikes, sweep kicks, wing chun blocks and strikes, stances, and so on; not withstanding the simple speed of CMA attacks and moves.

Wouldn't we want to see some of that in action against some of the world's scariest (note I didn't say 'best') fighters? Surely it's not a case of proving yourself, as of promoting your art through coverage?

Actually, come to think of it, why DO we want to see CMA in UFC?


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## 7starmantis (Feb 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MantisMan _
> *Sounds very restrictive, no? At least half of my current curriculum is barred! However, that still leaves other CMA specialisms: pressure point strikes, sweep kicks, wing chun blocks and strikes, stances, and so on; not withstanding the simple speed of CMA attacks and moves.*



To say, "take away half of your system and now fight" isn't fighting with that system anymore. So basically a true CMAist couldn't compete in one of these events.



> _Originally posted by MantisMan _
> *Wouldn't we want to see some of that in action against some of the world's scariest (note I didn't say 'best') fighters? Surely it's not a case of proving yourself, as of promoting your art through coverage?*



I don't know that I would consider them to be the "world's scariest fighters". I guess it depends on your perception. Most CMAist do not worry as much about "promoting their art" as they do about increasing their skill. Traditionally the way you prove your art is to stand on your own skill. For me to go and win proves my skill but says nothing for my friends or fellow mantis practitioners. Thats the CMA mindset.



> _Originally posted by MantisMan _
> *Actually, come to think of it, why DO we want to see CMA in UFC? *



Because everyone has this inherent "need" to see their art proven as the best. I personally don't see the need to "compete" in a UFC type event.

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Feb 13, 2004)

Man, everytime we get some good discussion going it just dies.

7sm


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## CloudChaser (Feb 13, 2004)

lol, 7sm... imo, most of the really good martial arts master don't go around flaunting their skills... look at bruce lee and how many challenges he got for being in the spotlight!  but then again, he was also a movie star so perhaps, it couldn't be helped...


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## Ninway J (Feb 14, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> ...held a six hour horse stance...
> JMO,
> 7sm


*winces in pain even at the thought*

Now that's endurance!

The closest I've done to this was "embracing the tree" for 10 minutes.   I should try for six hours next time.


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## 7starmantis (Feb 14, 2004)

Ninway J said:
			
		

> *winces in pain even at the thought*
> 
> Now that's endurance!
> 
> The closest I've done to this was "embracing the tree" for 10 minutes.  I should try for six hours next time.


Yeah, my sigung had to do a 6 hour horse stance for one of his last tests, I think he got to get up and go to the bathroom and puke every hour. That blows my mind.

7sm


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## CloudChaser (Feb 14, 2004)

huh, yeah, we were occasionally required to do the 10-minute 'embracing the tree" posture too, and my knees could barely take it... we were to close our eyes, breathe deeply from our abdomen, and endure the pain... and the only words of encouragement were, "it's okkkkk to feel the pain, just don't show that it hurts!"  ha ha, ouch...

i felt like such a wuss when my sifu told us about his 2 day master's exam where he had to hold every basic stance known to chinese martial arts for 20 minutes each before he even tested for his forms! wowzers!!!


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## Ninway J (Feb 15, 2004)

CloudChaser said:
			
		

> huh, yeah, we were occasionally required to do the 10-minute 'embracing the tree" posture too, and my knees could barely take it... we were to close our eyes, breathe deeply from our abdomen, and endure the pain... and the only words of encouragement were, "it's okkkkk to feel the pain, just don't show that it hurts!"  ha ha, ouch...
> 
> i felt like such a wuss when my sifu told us about his 2 day master's exam where he had to hold every basic stance known to chinese martial arts for 20 minutes each before he even tested for his forms! wowzers!!!



Yeah, the original way I learned from Iron Shirt would've been impossible for me to "embrace the tree" for 10 minutes without trembling.  It really is a great way to build those quads.  I've recently adapted some taiji priciples to "embracing", and I can go the 10 minutes without trembling, and I still feel the chi move.

7*, your sigung is amazing!

I remember watching a reality show last year or the year before, where it was all about military boot camp.  This one male and one female had to stand at attention, and whoever broke their stance would lose.  They stood for almost 3 hours non-stop, I think, before the female stepped out of attention.  I thought 3 hours was long...but 6 hours, even with breaks every hour, is even more amazing!


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## 7starmantis (Feb 15, 2004)

Ninway J said:
			
		

> 7*, your sigung is amazing!
> 
> I remember watching a reality show last year or the year before, where it was all about military boot camp. This one male and one female had to stand at attention, and whoever broke their stance would lose. They stood for almost 3 hours non-stop, I think, before the female stepped out of attention. I thought 3 hours was long...but 6 hours, even with breaks every hour, is even more amazing!


Yeah, I can't sit on the couch for 6 hours, let alone sit in horse stance!! He is probably one of the most hardcore kung fu guys I've ever met. Well, he doesn't train like that anymore, but he did for most of his life, he doesn't have to anymore! What blows my mind is that we do horse stance low enough that you place a staff across your knees and it has to not roll off. Thats what kills me.


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## Ninway J (Feb 15, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Yeah, I can't sit on the couch for 6 hours, let alone sit in horse stance!! He is probably one of the most hardcore kung fu guys I've ever met. Well, he doesn't train like that anymore, but he did for most of his life, he doesn't have to anymore! What blows my mind is that we do horse stance low enough that you place a staff across your knees and it has to not roll off. Thats what kills me.



Oh man!  So what's the longest you've ever held a horse stance that low, 7*? :uhyeah: 

Back to the subject of UFC and such, 7*, you have a good point in that CMArtists would have to compromise much in order to compete.  That's true from an art that traditionally teaches to "kick the groin first", and is very non-sport.


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## 7starmantis (Feb 17, 2004)

Ninway J said:
			
		

> Oh man! So what's the longest you've ever held a horse stance that low, 7*? :uhyeah:


Me? Just a mere 10 minutes. Its not so much physical anymore but a mental capacity to deal with the pain. It is *very* painful, believe me. 



			
				Ninway J said:
			
		

> Back to the subject of UFC and such, 7*, you have a good point in that CMArtists would have to compromise much in order to compete. That's true from an art that traditionally teaches to "kick the groin first", and is very non-sport.


Yeah, I guess there isn't really any true judge of CMA anymore where hand to hand combat doesn't have a huge role in our society. I am training to enter some san shou and I guess that is pretty close to "real" fighting yet again with even more rules than UFC type things. To me, it is about the ability to stick to your principles in a situation of a "real" fight. If in my san shou matches I can still stick to my principles and pull off those techniques that are legal, then I believe that I will be able to do the same thing with techniques that are illegal. I know its not the same, but you can't really go around breaking people's arms or anything these days, its kind of frowned upon.

7sm


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## Makalakumu (Feb 19, 2004)

Some people quit after participating in those types of tournaments.  I almost did.  My first fight, I broke my hand punching a guy in the head and he hit me so hard I couldn't breath.  Then he threw a combo and the next thing I knew I was on my back staring at the lights wondering how I got there.  The fight was over in 20 seconds and I was so humiliated that it took me a long time to try again.  Go for it, 7sm.  Just keep in mind that MA is more then fighting.


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## CloudChaser (Feb 19, 2004)

aren't there submission holds you could use that are legal and just as effective?  
yeah, MA is more than fighting, but you still gotta learn to apply the techniques and there's only so much you can do to your sparring partner w/o hurting them...the real test will be out on the street or in a UFC type tournament where there aren't so many limitations to what you're allowed to do...


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## RHD (Feb 21, 2004)

CloudChaser said:
			
		

> ...the real test will be out on the street or in a UFC type tournament where there aren't so many limitations to what you're allowed to do...



Well...I'm sure this will ruffle some MMA feathers, but here goes.  MMA is a ring sport.  It certainly can be an effective approach to fighting and I'm not arguing against that fact.  BUT,  MMA doesn't necessarily prepare a person to fight or defend themselves outside of the ring any better than any other fighting system, martial art, or approach.  There really is no way to test your skills without risking permanent injury, death, jail time, and lawsuits, we as practitioners of martial arts, MMA included, have to come to terms with that.
All the barking, bragging, and arguments aside, when your life is on the line your ability to defend yourself has more to do with your will to survive than your training in the gym, dojo, or kwoon.
Mike


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## don bohrer (Feb 22, 2004)

Ring fighters have advantages because they work a smaller core group of moves to a greater degree under conditions more condusive to ring figthing. We do not see many traditional stylist inside UFC style events because we do not train for that kind of fighting. Most martial arts styles have ways to test their arts combat effectivness, but often not with the same intensity you witness inside the UFC. 

don


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## don bohrer (Feb 22, 2004)

One more thing I would like to add. It's not the style that lends itself to victory but the fighter that trains the smartest, hardest, and most realistically that has the advantage!  

don


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## 7starmantis (Feb 22, 2004)

don bohrer said:
			
		

> One more thing I would like to add. It's not the style that lends itself to victory but the fighter that trains the smartest, hardest, and most realistically that has the advantage!


To a certain point that is correct, however there is a need for "realistic" training and there are many systems that lend themselves to unrealistic training as far as UFC type fighting goes at least.

7sm


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## RHD (Feb 22, 2004)

Sorry Don, I disagree with you here.  Realistic isn't training to fight a pumped up young buck wearing a speedo.  Realistic is training to deal with a desperate drug addict who grabs your lapel and thrusts a kinfe at your guts.  There's a world of difference.  Granted, the MMA people do train with a good deal of contact and resistance, but any martial arts school can do this as well...it's just a matter of your personal training focus.
Mike :soapbox:


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## 7starmantis (Feb 22, 2004)

I think nowdays people are confusing contact with realism. The more the contact the more realistic it becomes. This is not neccesarily the truth.

7sm


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## don bohrer (Feb 23, 2004)

Aw Nuts!
AO Hell keeps dumping out while I'm writing. Grrrr....

Guys,

The UFC controlled environment like any other sport. Although the nature of contact found in the UFC would be an eye opener for most. I think it's important to clarify how much and what kind of contact has purpose. Any defense needs to move beyond the rehearsed and compliant opponent stage so a person can work out the bugs in their training and mindset. Forms and working self defense with a willing partner often train realistic situations but leave out intensity and the uncertainty.

Mike, 7sm
My 2nd posting was refering to Martial Artist in general not the UFC.


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## InvisibleFist (Feb 26, 2004)

The chinese martial arts were very well represented in the early UFC's,  unfortunately they didn't win much (but they were not utterly humiliated either...like the Sumo guy)  here's the roster for the first 3.  As you can see, theres plenty of kung fu going on. 

Results of UFC*I - III*​*UFC I* - was in Denver.

Participants, results and styles of fighting:


Jason Delucia (Kung Fu) defeated Trent Jenkins (Karate)
Gerard Gordeau (Savate) defeated Teila Tuli (Sumo) 
Kevin Rosier (Kickboxing) defeated Zane Frazier (Kempo Karate)
Royce Gracie (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) defeated Art  Jimmerson (Boxing) 
Ken Shamrock (Shootfigthing) defeated Pat Smith (Kickboxing) with a leglock
Gerard Gordeau (Savate) defeated Kevin Rosier(kickboxing)
Royce Gracie (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) defeated Ken Shamrock (Shootfigthing) 
Royce Gracie (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) defeats Gerard Gordeau(Savate) 
Royce Gracie is Champion of *UFC I*​*UFC II* - was in Denver

Participants, results and styles:

(Alternates)
Fred Ettish (Karate)  
Trent Jenkins (Karate)  

Fights:


Scott Morris (Ninjitsu) defeats Sean Daugherty (Karate) 
Pat Smith (Kickboxing) defeats Ray Wizard (Karate) 
Johnny Rhodes (Karate) defeats David Levicki (Kung Fu) 
Frank Hammaker (Karate) defeats Thaddeus Luster (Kung Fu) 
Orlando Weit (Muay Thai) defeats Robert Lucarrelli (Kickboxing)
Remco Pardoel (Jiu-Jitsu/Judo) defeats Alberto Leon (Penchak Silat)
Jason Delucia (Kung Fu) defeats Scott Baker (Kung Fu) 
Royce Gracie (Gracie Jiu-Jutsu) defeats Minoki Ichihara (Karate) 
Pat Smith (Kickboxing) defeats Scott Morris (Ninjitsu)
Johnny Rhodes (Karate) defeats Fred "Ettish (Karate)
Remco Pardoel (Jui-Jitsu/Judo) defeats Orlando Weit (Muay Thai) 
Royce Gracie (Gracie Jui-Jitsu) defeats Jason DeLucia (Kung Fu) 
Pat Smith (Kickboxing) defeats Johnny Rhodes (karate)
Royce Gracie (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) defeats Remco Pardoel (Jiu-Jitsu/Judo)
Royce Gracie (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) defeats Pat Smith (Kickboxing) 
Royce Gracie is Champion of *UFC II*​*UFC III* - was held in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Participants, results and styles:

Alternates:
Steve Jennum (Ninjitsu)  
Felix Lee Mitchell (Kung Fu)  


Keith Hackney (Kempo Karate) defeats Emmanuel Yarbrough (Sumo)
NOTE 1: Keith Hackney broke his hand against Emmanuel Yarbrough - could not continue.
Ken Shamrock (Shootfigthing) defeats Christophe Leininger (Judo)
Harold Howard (Karate) defeats Roland  Payne (Muay Thai)
Royce Gracie (Gracie Jui-Jitsu) defeats Kimo (Pancration) 
Ken Shamrock (Shootfigthing) defeats Felix Lee Mitchell (Kung Fu) 
NOTE 2: Royce Gracie (Gracie Jui-Jitsu) could not fight against Harold Howard (Karate) because of an injury in the Kimo fight
NOTE 3: Shamrock unable to continue due to injury in Mitchell fight
Steve Jennum as alternate for Shamrock defeats Harold Howard (Karate)


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## CloudChaser (Feb 26, 2004)

for those who actually saw the UFC fights, what was it like?  i realize it probably wasn't as glamorous as a hollywood choreographed movie, but was the spectacle worth the ticket price?  i personally enjoy watching high flying kicks and fancy knockouts, but i can also imagine a long drawn out affair where a jiu-jitsu expert like Gracie grabs a hold of his opponent and just hangs tight until he submits... 15+ minutes watching two guys locked together in a pretzel hold would put me to sleep, geez!

i'm sure there are also new rules now to avoid such circumstances... to keep the action going and all, y'know?


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## don bohrer (Feb 26, 2004)

I know Major Players rents the early UFC's. Block Buster might too.

don


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## streetwise (Mar 3, 2004)

To go back to the original question, sure, lots of CMA in MMA (I am starting to sound like the government with all the 3 letter code!). It is just that there are very seldom any "pure" styles. MMA is a sport, the practitioners practice "MMA style". With that said, I have trained with Frank Shamrock (a UFC champ and King of Pancrase) and Guy Mezger (many time contender in several mma promotions) at CMA seminars. A number of mma champions have trained with a couple of CMA masters I know. Are they "kung fu guys"? Nope, but the succesfull Thai boxers aren't really just MT, etc, etc.


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## Tony (Mar 3, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Yeah, I can't sit on the couch for 6 hours, let alone sit in horse stance!! He is probably one of the most hardcore kung fu guys I've ever met. Well, he doesn't train like that anymore, but he did for most of his life, he doesn't have to anymore! What blows my mind is that we do horse stance low enough that you place a staff across your knees and it has to not roll off. Thats what kills me.


 
Hi 7*

We sometimes do that too! and it really hurts! we were doing something called Horse form last night, which emphasises a lot of stance work! My instructor can be very hard on us! He'll come and stand on our foot if we're not low enough in Ding Bow or oush us over if we are off balance and aren't covering our centre line properly! Last night was especially gruelling! i have heard of my instructors stories when he was in competitions actually knocking people out! He is a lot smaller than me, but so powerful! It really inspires me and shows you don't have to be big to defeat bigger opponents! His training was a lot harder than ours I am sure!


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## 7starmantis (Mar 3, 2004)

I think also some of the problem could be the use of the words "kung fu". In all reality thats like saying martial arts. There are so many systems of kung fu it really is hard to see someone doceted as kung fu and even know if they are skilled at any of the CMA.

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Mar 14, 2004)

I was just thinking, maybe its the amount of time needed to be extremely effective at kung fu. Its not something you can pick up and add to your arsenal in a few months, or years even for that matter. Maybe that is why we don't see much in UFC type events. A fighter wanted to add techniques that he/she can immediatly begin to use, not spend a few years learning how to apply it.

7sm


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## brothershaw (Mar 25, 2004)

At this point, and for the past couple of years , the guys in the ufc etc have pretty much gotten it down to a science on how to fight and win in these tournaments most effectively. Genereally speaking that is soften the oppentent up, get them to the ground and either pound them out or submit them. THey then train in the quickest ways to do that. THey arent interested in trading blows (like boxing). THey wnat to finish quickly with minimum damage.  At the same time they dont want to hurt each other more than necessary to win ( after all it is a sport). So even a great kung fu guy ( in whatever style) would probably resort to the same formula because it works good.   UNLESS we see some kung fu guy or some other stylist just take his oppenent out with a dazzling combination of strikes. ( I would pay really good money to see that, I would LOVE to see that.)


If someone comes along with a new way to win ( within the rules) then the ufc will change. 

What kung fu needs is a full contact tourny where the rules state you have to use open hand techniques, standing chin na if you can get it etc. Let them wear some of kind of metal throat collar so you can do throat strikes for points if you can get, and a 10 second max on the ground. And judge it like boxing where you can win on knockout or judges points. THen you would see something quite different from UFC. Quite a few people would get hurt but eventually, a system would develop.


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## 7starmantis (Mar 26, 2004)

They do, its called San Shou.

Full contact, seperated after going to the ground, sweeps and groin targets permitted. Its pretty much UFC without the focus on groundfighting.

7sm


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## brothershaw (Mar 26, 2004)

I definitely need to check out some san shou matches then. And they arent wearing gloves?


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## MJS (Mar 26, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> Sorry Don, I disagree with you here.  Realistic isn't training to fight a pumped up young buck wearing a speedo.  Realistic is training to deal with a desperate drug addict who grabs your lapel and thrusts a kinfe at your guts.  There's a world of difference.  Granted, the MMA people do train with a good deal of contact and resistance, but any martial arts school can do this as well...it's just a matter of your personal training focus.
> Mike :soapbox:



Gotta disagree with that.  If thats the case, then wouldnt you think that a traditional MA would have faired a little better in past and present shows?  In the first few, you saw some TMA guys, but not any more. 

Mike


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## MJS (Mar 26, 2004)

don bohrer said:
			
		

> Aw Nuts!
> 
> 
> > Forms and working self defense with a willing partner often train realistic situations but leave out intensity and the uncertainty.
> ...


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## 7starmantis (Mar 26, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Gotta disagree with that. If thats the case, then wouldnt you think that a traditional MA would have faired a little better in past and present shows? In the first few, you saw some TMA guys, but not any more.
> 
> Mike


Thats faulty logic at its best. If the "show" holds no realistic properties, then any MAist who trains in realistic situations would not fair well. Ask yourself why it is that "traditional guys" don't fair so well anymore. Is it because it had become more realistic to street fighting? Is it because is has become more sport oriented? 

Simply put, to label someone traditional and asign them certain characteristics because of their label is getting harder to do.

7sm


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## MJS (Mar 26, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Thats faulty logic at its best. If the "show" holds no realistic properties, then any MAist who trains in realistic situations would not fair well. Ask yourself why it is that "traditional guys" don't fair so well anymore. Is it because it had become more realistic to street fighting? Is it because is has become more sport oriented?
> 
> Simply put, to label someone traditional and asign them certain characteristics because of their label is getting harder to do.
> 
> 7sm



Dude, let me explain a few things.  

1- Never said that the show wasnt realistic.  Sure there are rules, but its alot closer to fighting than sparring in a MA class would ever be.  The fighters there are very real and I'm sure they'd be able to defend themselves on the street as well as the ring.

2- Traditional arts.  Take a look at the first few UFC events and compare them to what you see today.  How many TMA's do you see now?  NONE.  

3- Please go back and re-read my post on this thread as well as my posts on the other threads.  I'm a huge fan of crosstraining, and being as realistic as possible.  I think that you may have misread and misunderstood my posts here.  

4- Read the post by RHD about realistic training.  He said that any MA or school can train realisticly.  I stated that if that was the case, then the TMA's probably would have faired a little better in the cage than they did.

Mike


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## brothershaw (Mar 26, 2004)

This ties in with my original post
I think you dont see many if any tma guys in the ufc now is 
1- The succesful people have found a formula that works in the ufc which is MMA
2- Many TMA ( not all ) dont train for an ongoing fight with full contact, or even moderate contact.
That is a serious thing - we train in self defense under the  pretense that our first combo/technique may do the job, so alot of people dont train for stamina or the  conditioning to take a serious pounding and keep coming. 
So if you dont have that kind of training you may not even make it through the prelims, much less make it the Pay Per View event.  
3- People also train under the pretense they want to defend themselves quickly and get out of the situation, not try to submit somebody for the referee.   Which is legitimate.


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## 7starmantis (Mar 28, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Dude, let me explain a few things.
> 
> 1- Never said that the show wasnt realistic. Sure there are rules, but its alot closer to fighting than sparring in a MA class would ever be. The fighters there are very real and I'm sure they'd be able to defend themselves on the street as well as the ring.


I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't misunderstand your post at all, I understand what your saying, maybe I didn't present myself clearly. I wasn't responding to your comments about realism, what I was responding to was your logic that if any MA school could train with intensity then TMA would have faired better in UFC events. Thats completely unrelated. You said you disagreed with the quote from RHD saying that any MA school could train with intensity. How in the world do you support your logic that certain schools can't train with intensity? Here is your own quote: 





			
				MJS said:
			
		

> 4- Read the post by RHD about realistic training. He said that any MA or school can train realisticly. I stated that if that was the case, then the TMA's probably would have faired a little better in the cage than they did.


Thats ridiculous. Your saying some schools can't train with intensity. I think what you ment to say is that alot of schols *dont* train with intensity. The connection you made between MA schools not being able to train with intensity and TMA not fairing well in UFC is unsupported at best.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> 2- Traditional arts. Take a look at the first few UFC events and compare them to what you see today. How many TMA's do you see now? NONE.
> Mike


The lines between what is "traditional" and what is "modern" are becoming blurred. Maybe you should define what you label non-traditional, or what is effective in UFC. Also, is the UFC your proving ground or courtroom for judging a MA or MAist? If so, you need to broaden your horizons a bit, the UFC is good fighters in a controled environment performing controled techniques within a controled set of techniques. Thats good and can really show the athleticism and fighting of a person, but it is no proving ground for pure life-threatening fighting. 

Would you define what you call traditional and also what you call non-traditional MA or MAist?

7sm


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## MJS (Mar 28, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't misunderstand your post at all, I understand what your saying, maybe I didn't present myself clearly. I wasn't responding to your comments about realism, what I was responding to was your logic that if any MA school could train with intensity then TMA would have faired better in UFC events. Thats completely unrelated. You said you disagreed with the quote from RHD saying that any MA school could train with intensity. How in the world do you support your logic that certain schools can't train with intensity? Here is your own quote:
> Thats ridiculous. Your saying some schools can't train with intensity. I think what you ment to say is that alot of schols *dont* train with intensity. The connection you made between MA schools not being able to train with intensity and TMA not fairing well in UFC is unsupported at best.



No offense taken my friend.  After re reading the 2 posts, I can see where some confusion arised. Some schools that I've seen dont train with any alivenenss.  For example.  Rather than just stand there while attacking and let the defender do his move, the other person should be attempting to counter or give some resistance.  Granted when first learning the tech. you dont want to do that, but as you progress, you want to give more and more resistance.  I think that some schools are too worried about too much contact and losing a student.  Why can't you train with that contact, and still have a controlled atmosphere?  The MA's are a contact activity.  If someone cant handle the contact, then they should not be doing the arts.  Another example would be with weapons and kata.  Many of the TMAs focus alot on this, which is fine, dont get me wrong.  But if you want to focus on fighting, then you cant be doing kata.  Instead, you need to be working bag drills, and getting in the ring.




> The lines between what is "traditional" and what is "modern" are becoming blurred. Maybe you should define what you label non-traditional, or what is effective in UFC. Also, is the UFC your proving ground or courtroom for judging a MA or MAist? If so, you need to broaden your horizons a bit, the UFC is good fighters in a controled environment performing controled techniques within a controled set of techniques. Thats good and can really show the athleticism and fighting of a person, but it is no proving ground for pure life-threatening fighting.



TMA's IMO, are as follows.  TKD, Kung fu, and many of the other stand up karate styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, etc.  Modern: BJJ, Muay Thai, Krav Maga, etc.  There is a huge difference between those mentioned.  Can a TKD guy fair well in the UFC? Not if they keep doing their trad. methods.  The UFC/MMA events, are alot closer to what you'd see on the street than a point sparring match.  As I've said before, it all depends on what YOU want to get out of the arts.



> Would you define what you call traditional and also what you call non-traditional MA or MAist?



See above.

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Mar 29, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> But if you want to focus on fighting, then you cant be doing kata. Instead, you need to be working bag drills, and getting in the ring.


I think your closing off too much with your statements. To say you can't do kata or forms if you want to focus on fighting doesn't make sense. You can work bag drills, get in the ring, and train with the most "aliveness" you can find and yet still do forms. The debate on forms is an ongoing one and I don't want to get into it here, but the mere doing of forms doesn't take your focus off fighting.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> TMA's IMO, are as follows. TKD, Kung fu, and many of the other stand up karate styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, etc. Modern: BJJ, Muay Thai, Krav Maga, etc. There is a huge difference between those mentioned. Can a TKD guy fair well in the UFC? Not if they keep doing their trad. methods. The UFC/MMA events, are alot closer to what you'd see on the street than a point sparring match. As I've said before, it all depends on what YOU want to get out of the arts.
> 
> Mike


So what is the seperating factor between traditional and modern? Is it stand up fighting? If so, I think some of your modrn systems would fall into trad. I assume when you say kung fu that you mean CMA. If its stand up fighting that makes a system trad then some kung fu would not fit that mold.

The reason a TKD guy wouldn't fair well in UFC is that they do not work on the techniques as applied to the rules of UFC. In pure self defense, while you go for a submission, I'm going for a nice thumb in the eye, or a knee to the groin, maybe an elbow to the back of the head. See these are all things that are forbidden in UFC. You speak of point sparring as if there is only UFC and point sparring. I've never point sparred in my life and I never will. I've also never participated in a UFC event, and I never will. I have on the other hand effectivly defended myself against attackers a few times multiple attackers on the street. You are correct that UFC is closer to "real" fighting than point sparring, but I propose that it is miles away from "real" fighting still. There are ways to train that are effective, that do not include to training of submission wins.

7sm


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## MJS (Mar 29, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I think your closing off too much with your statements. To say you can't do kata or forms if you want to focus on fighting doesn't make sense. You can work bag drills, get in the ring, and train with the most "aliveness" you can find and yet still do forms. The debate on forms is an ongoing one and I don't want to get into it here, but the mere doing of forms doesn't take your focus off fighting.



There are people out there that actually think that by doing kata, it'll help them fight.  That was my point.  Sure you can do all that you mentioned.  But please by all means, why not discuss the forms debate here?  If I was going to be training for a MMA event, why the hell would I waste time doing forms, when I should be in the ring.  That is that point I was making. 




> So what is the seperating factor between traditional and modern? Is it stand up fighting? If so, I think some of your modrn systems would fall into trad. I assume when you say kung fu that you mean CMA. If its stand up fighting that makes a system trad then some kung fu would not fit that mold.



Many styles include things from other styles.  Your reality based arts, as they are called, have taken things from arts...the things that will most likely work and be the most practical, and put it all together.  Look at the first UFC.  Are you honestly gonna tell me that the trad. stand up guys EVER thought that they'd end up on the ground? Of course not!!!  You rarely ever see a TMA doing something like grappling.  Why? Cuz they dont think that they'll ever need it.



> The reason a TKD guy wouldn't fair well in UFC is that they do not work on the techniques as applied to the rules of UFC. In pure self defense, while you go for a submission, I'm going for a nice thumb in the eye, or a knee to the groin, maybe an elbow to the back of the head. See these are all things that are forbidden in UFC. You speak of point sparring as if there is only UFC and point sparring. I've never point sparred in my life and I never will. I've also never participated in a UFC event, and I never will. I have on the other hand effectivly defended myself against attackers a few times multiple attackers on the street. You are correct that UFC is closer to "real" fighting than point sparring, but I propose that it is miles away from "real" fighting still. There are ways to train that are effective, that do not include to training of submission wins.



Pure SD?  Ok, so while that TKD guy is doing is fancy jump spinning back kick, the grappler will be closing the distance and taking him down.  What good is that kick gonna do then?  People, and yourself included, seem to forget that just because they dont bite, eye gouge, etc, in the UFC, that they cant do it in a real situation.  It doesnt take a brain surgeon to know how do do that.  As for the types of sparring.  Let me expalin to you.  Depending on what school you attend, there are different rules that are allowed.  I spar making contact to the head, as well as throwing leg kicks, all of which are forbidden in MANY schools. WHY? Safety.  The Inst. are probably afraid to have too much contact, due to a possible loss of students.  Another example.  I've had the chance to watch a few TKD guys spar, and I sit there and laugh, because they are mostly throwing kicks, hardly any punches, and their hands are down!  You're gonna fight like you train.  

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Mar 29, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> There are people out there that actually think that by doing kata, it'll help them fight. That was my point. Sure you can do all that you mentioned. But please by all means, why not discuss the forms debate here? If I was going to be training for a MMA event, why the hell would I waste time doing forms, when I should be in the ring. That is that point I was making.


Exactly, *IF* you are training for a MMA *event*. I train for pure self defense. The only event I train for is San Shou which allows almost everything I train in SD for. What I refering to is not training for an event, but for SD. In SD there are qualities you can receive from doing forms. There are also qualities you get from doing ground work. They don't have to be working against each other, they can work together. Visionaries like Bruce Lee saw this and used it. 



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> You rarely ever see a TMA doing something like grappling. Why? Cuz they dont think that they'll ever need it.


I agree, but I rarely see men getting breast implants, that dosen't mean men are unable to receive breast implants. Just because alot of people do not train a certain way, doesn't mean others don't either. Be careful of grouping MAist into areas where you think you know what they do and how they train, some will surprise you.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> People, and yourself included, seem to forget that just because they dont bite, eye gouge, etc, in the UFC, that they cant do it in a real situation. It doesnt take a brain surgeon to know how do do that.


Now isnt this the argument you are against? Just because trad. MAist don't do ground work doesn't mean they cant? Your contradicting yourself. 


			
				MJS said:
			
		

> You're gonna fight like you train.


This is my point *exactly*! You fight how you train, so if your training for an event using only those allowed techniques you are going to fight with those techniques. You just said it yourself. Now your saying just because MMAist don't train said techniques doesn't mean they can't use them in a fight? Which way is it? I think you are losing your point, it can't be both ways.

7sm


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## MJS (Mar 29, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Exactly, *IF* you are training for a MMA *event*. I train for pure self defense. The only event I train for is San Shou which allows almost everything I train in SD for. What I refering to is not training for an event, but for SD. In SD there are qualities you can receive from doing forms. There are also qualities you get from doing ground work. They don't have to be working against each other, they can work together. Visionaries like Bruce Lee saw this and used it.



But, if you want to get better at fighting, wouldnt time be better spent in the ring rather than doing kata?  Maybe we're training kata differently here.




> I agree, but I rarely see men getting breast implants, that dosen't mean men are unable to receive breast implants. Just because alot of people do not train a certain way, doesn't mean others don't either. Be careful of grouping MAist into areas where you think you know what they do and how they train, some will surprise you.



Just going on what I've seen alot of here.




> Now isnt this the argument you are against? Just because trad. MAist don't do ground work doesn't mean they cant? Your contradicting yourself.
> This is my point *exactly*! You fight how you train, so if your training for an event using only those allowed techniques you are going to fight with those techniques. You just said it yourself. Now your saying just because MMAist don't train said techniques doesn't mean they can't use them in a fight? Which way is it? I think you are losing your point, it can't be both ways.



Anyone can lay on the ground and think that they can defend themselves, but if you've never had any exp. in that area, you're gonna be a fish outta water.  It happened to me the first time I did BJJ.  My Inst. mounted me and told me to get out from under him.  I tried and tried, and no matter what I did, he countered it.  It was then that I became hooked on BJJ.  As for the techs.  used.  Look at boxing and Tyson.  Do you think that he can apply the same things he does in boxing in a street fight?  Now, you mentioned an eye jab.  I'm gonna assume you do them during practice.  Do you apply them during your sparring?  Paul Vunak talks about biting and eye jabs all the time and applies them during his workouts.  Obviously everyone is wearing gear.  Do we know the background of every MMA fighter out there?  How can we assume that they dont have prior training?  Now, in your training, do you put on eye protection and do those eye jabs?  

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Mar 29, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> But, if you want to get better at fighting, wouldnt time be better spent in the ring rather than doing kata? Maybe we're training kata differently here.


Your skill improving isn't contingent upon where you do your training, but on what you do in your training. Your saying training for a set event with set rules is better than doing kata, but your reasoing is that your only doing set techniques in kata. Thats contridictory. If you want to be a better fighter than you should spend more time fighting, and more time refining your techniques. I guess it is possible that we do forms differently as I've yet to see anyone else do forms like mantis people do.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> As for the techs. used. Look at boxing and Tyson. Do you think that he can apply the same things he does in boxing in a street fight?


I'm sure he could and that is my point again. You do in a fight what you do in training. If you train for a specific event as you said, UFC, then you fight with those set techniques. You made my point for me.




			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Now, you mentioned an eye jab. I'm gonna assume you do them during practice. Do you apply them during your sparring? Paul Vunak talks about biting and eye jabs all the time and applies them during his workouts. Obviously everyone is wearing gear. Do we know the background of every MMA fighter out there? How can we assume that they dont have prior training? Now, in your training, do you put on eye protection and do those eye jabs?
> 
> Mike


Actually we do, we wear eye protection when working on face techniques and when fighting. We practice the fullest range of techniqes that are "legally" possible. In training for UFC events, you think they put on eye protection and practice eye gouges?

7sm


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## MJS (Mar 30, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Your skill improving isn't contingent upon where you do your training, but on what you do in your training. Your saying training for a set event with set rules is better than doing kata, but your reasoing is that your only doing set techniques in kata. Thats contridictory. If you want to be a better fighter than you should spend more time fighting, and more time refining your techniques. I guess it is possible that we do forms differently as I've yet to see anyone else do forms like mantis people do.



Dude- you're totally misunderstanding what is being said here.  A kata IS a preset series of moves.  How can that possibly teach you how to fight, when a fight is not preset??  



> I'm sure he could and that is my point again. You do in a fight what you do in training. If you train for a specific event as you said, UFC, then you fight with those set techniques. You made my point for me.



You seem obsessed with street vs UFC.  TWO different things here.  There is nothing saying anywhere that any of the UFC guys would not be able to do an eye jab on the street.  Just because they dont do them in the UFC, does not mean that they cant be done on the street.  Do you know what there background is?  Still waiting for that answer.





> Actually we do, we wear eye protection when working on face techniques and when fighting. We practice the fullest range of techniqes that are "legally" possible. In training for UFC events, you think they put on eye protection and practice eye gouges?



Again, 2, I'll say it again, 2, very different things here.  In the UFC they train for the rules that apply there.  Again, do you know what they would do on the street?  Look at Tank.  Thats a good example.  Hes a perfect example of a street fighter.  Do you think that hed bite or do groin shots in a bar fight?  I'm sure he would.  As I've said before, it doest take a rocket scientist to do an eye jab.

Mike


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## Bod (Mar 30, 2004)

Here is my opinion on why the standing Kung Fu disciplines do not fare well in MMA competitions.

First I'll make an arbitrary distinction between long-fist and 'Southern' kung fu styles.

Long-Fist styles aim to stay away from an opponent and then make well timed lunges against them, beating them off with fists and kicks. They work best against far less skilled fighters who are attacking the long-fist man _en masse_. When they throw they tend to throw with the bump and trip method, in order to move on. They don't see the point of ground fighting, which is fair.

The more compact (Southern) styles seem to me to be more geared to one on one fighting. They get past the arms while striking hard, straight into optimum grappling range. Unfortunately they rarely train the grappling. My private theory about this is that CMA masters arriving abroad didn't have the cash for mats, and the proud excuse of 'tradition' soon built up. What's worse they'd have been beaten every now and then in the grappling range by highly trained grapplers, and the invincibility myth would wear off, good for common sense, but bad for profits. Not all CMA masters behaved like this, but as most people would agree, post Bruce Lee the market was swamped with instructors only too willing to teach hand and foot skills, and there wasn't a huge amount of demand for the basic grappling skills needed to go with the approach.

OK, so we  get ourselves a good Wing Chun guy in the UFC who blocks, gets in, does a basic trap, goes to sweep and nothing happens. Oh dear, the grapplers are not as easy to throw as your average guy, and the WC guy gets counter thrown by a man who has spent 30 years learning little else. On the ground he is demolished. Yikes. Time to get down the store and buy those mats.

I think the CMA are losing out in UFC because for the want of a nail the battle being lost. The throws are in there, in the forms, and yet they are not being trained to the extent they are needed. Add a 'limited time on the ground' rule to UFC and the CMA would be up there in the limelight all over again.


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## 7starmantis (Mar 30, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Dude- you're totally misunderstanding what is being said here. A kata IS a preset series of moves. How can that possibly teach you how to fight, when a fight is not preset??


I know exactly what your saying, a form/kata is deffinatly a set series of moves, however so is training for a UFC event. This is not the thread to get into the "How could forms be usefull" argument. What I'm saying is that your contradicting your own statements. Your talking of training for a UFC type event and then in the same breath saying forms are bad. Your doing the same thing in both of them, and thank you for so adamantly making my point for me. In your last quote you say that a set series of techniques cannot help you fight, yet your talking about the superiority of training for a UFC event which uses only a preset series of techniques. Then you say its ok that UFC guys dont practice these "other" techniques because they are easy and anyone can do them, and they can do them in a fight if needed without practicing them. I think you should talk to experienced MAist who have defended themselves on the street many times, they will all tell you that you fight the way you train. If you don't train for a certain technique, trying to do it in a fight could very well be detrimental to your health.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> You seem obsessed with street vs UFC. TWO different things here. There is nothing saying anywhere that any of the UFC guys would not be able to do an eye jab on the street. Just because they dont do them in the UFC, does not mean that they cant be done on the street. Do you know what there background is? Still waiting for that answer.


I'm not obsessed, I'm just staying on topic. This thread is about UFC type events, thats why I'm talking about UFC type events. *wow*
Now you've just agreed with me again, street vs UFC are two completely different things. Now your saying therre is nothing saying a UFC guy couldn't do different techniques on the street. Yes, there background as you mentioned, is training for the UFC event. That does not include said techniques. If you seriously think that a fighter training for a specific UFC event is going to spend time practicing techniques outside of the set rules of UFC, you are mistaken. It would be a huge waste of time for them. They need to be spending every moment of training on what they will need in the ring. This is the same way that you should be training for only the things you could use in the street. The difference is just that one includes many more techniques than the other. If you don't agree with me, just take a look at your next quote, you agree there.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Again, 2, I'll say it again, 2, very different things here. In the UFC they train for the rules that apply there. Again, do you know what they would do on the street? Look at Tank. Thats a good example. Hes a perfect example of a street fighter. Do you think that hed bite or do groin shots in a bar fight? I'm sure he would. As I've said before, it doest take a rocket scientist to do an eye jab.


See, you agree that in training for a UFC type event you train in those techniques available for use in said event. This does not include some of the mentioned techniques. Now here is where the contradiction hits its high point. *"Again, do you know what they would do on the street?"* Well, since I thought we agreed that you fight like you train, then I can say that in a true self defense situation they would most likely use what they trained in. I'm not saying you can't do any moves other than what you train specifically for, but I'm saying if you don't train for every move for SD, you could seriously wound your chances of survival. Now, here is the next part, *"Do you think that hed bite or do groin shots in a bar fight? I'm sure he would. As I've said before, it doest take a rocket scientist to do an eye jab."* Yet, I guess your of the opinion that it *does* take a rocket scientist to do an armbar? See, what I'm saying is train for ALL possible attacks and defenses. This includes biting, eye gouging, joint breaking, stabbing, shooting, being attacked with a used toilet brush....
In *any* event, certain techniques will be left out. Training for pure SD doesn't. Thats all I'm saying, any event even those like UFC are still leaving out pure SD techniques that could save your life on the street.

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Mar 30, 2004)

Bod said:
			
		

> Here is my opinion on why the standing Kung Fu disciplines do not fare well in MMA competitions.


Thats fair, my only response is that your incorrect about CMA not using grappling. Its normally not taught because of one simply reason, student quit. See, grappling is not touched on until far advanced techniques, because you have to learn some basics skills first. To say CMA are void of grappling is to say all MMA are void of teeth. Some my be missing a few, but some have all of them and they are in good shape. I know, stupidest example ever, but it makes my point. CMA are full of grappling you only have to get your skill level to that point in feel and yielding an such to actually be effecient at it. But when someone gets to that point, watch out, they are extremely effecient at it.

7sm


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## someguy (Mar 30, 2004)

Not all CMA place don't teach grappling untill a more advanced level.  Some teach at least a little bit early on.  Basicly though I agree.


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## Bod (Mar 30, 2004)

I fully acknowledge that all kung fu systems incorporate throwing, in fact in most it underpins the system.

Yet how many times have you read in response to the question "Howw should a CMA man fight a grappler" the answer "Keep on the outside", "Use lots of kicks" and so on.

I think the answer should be "Set up our own throws with the correct punches and infighting skills, and practise our arm clearing to stop them dragging us down."

How many CMA sparring practices have you seen turned into point kickboxing sessions, and form go straight out of the window? I believe that these errors are often caused by lack of very basic grappling skills in many CMA schools.


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## MJS (Mar 30, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I know exactly what your saying, a form/kata is deffinatly a set series of moves, however so is training for a UFC event. This is not the thread to get into the "How could forms be usefull" argument. What I'm saying is that your contradicting your own statements. Your talking of training for a UFC type event and then in the same breath saying forms are bad. Your doing the same thing in both of them, and thank you for so adamantly making my point for me. In your last quote you say that a set series of techniques cannot help you fight, yet your talking about the superiority of training for a UFC event which uses only a preset series of techniques. Then you say its ok that UFC guys dont practice these "other" techniques because they are easy and anyone can do them, and they can do them in a fight if needed without practicing them. I think you should talk to experienced MAist who have defended themselves on the street many times, they will all tell you that you fight the way you train. If you don't train for a certain technique, trying to do it in a fight could very well be detrimental to your health.



Doing forms and training for the UFC are the same? How do you figure that?  There is much more aliveness in the UFC than in forms.  You still seem to be avoiding my question too, so I'll ask it again.  How do you know how a MMA trains??  How do you know that he doesnt have a prior background in another art? Also, as I've said before, doing a jab or groin kick doesnt take much thinking.  I think you should talk to a MMA fighter and ask about their prior background.  There is another thread here talking about the same thing.  I think its in the gen. MA part.  Another discussion about the UFC.  As for kicks...well, Gracie has used them in his fights many times.  Hmm...tells me something there. Let me give you an example of preset.  In a kata, all of the moves are done at a certain time and place.  Its basically fighting an imaginary opp. who is standing in just the right spot, throwing just the right attack.  In the MMA, sure they have there set of armbars, chokes, etc, but they are NOT done in any special order.  I think you're getting a little confused here.




> I'm not obsessed, I'm just staying on topic. This thread is about UFC type events, thats why I'm talking about UFC type events. *wow*
> Now you've just agreed with me again, street vs UFC are two completely different things. Now your saying therre is nothing saying a UFC guy couldn't do different techniques on the street. Yes, there background as you mentioned, is training for the UFC event. That does not include said techniques. If you seriously think that a fighter training for a specific UFC event is going to spend time practicing techniques outside of the set rules of UFC, you are mistaken. It would be a huge waste of time for them. They need to be spending every moment of training on what they will need in the ring. This is the same way that you should be training for only the things you could use in the street. The difference is just that one includes many more techniques than the other. If you don't agree with me, just take a look at your next quote, you agree there.



And there you go again, misreading what I'm saying.  Please dont twist what I say around.  There BG is UFC?  BUT WHAT ABOUT PRIOR TRAINING??????  Eric Paulson has trained in a few different arts, but competes in MMA.  So are you gonna say that he cant do any eye jab/groin kick?




> See, you agree that in training for a UFC type event you train in those techniques available for use in said event. This does not include some of the mentioned techniques. Now here is where the contradiction hits its high point. *"Again, do you know what they would do on the street?"* Well, since I thought we agreed that you fight like you train, then I can say that in a true self defense situation they would most likely use what they trained in. I'm not saying you can't do any moves other than what you train specifically for, but I'm saying if you don't train for every move for SD, you could seriously wound your chances of survival. Now, here is the next part, *"Do you think that hed bite or do groin shots in a bar fight? I'm sure he would. As I've said before, it doest take a rocket scientist to do an eye jab."* Yet, I guess your of the opinion that it *does* take a rocket scientist to do an armbar? See, what I'm saying is train for ALL possible attacks and defenses. This includes biting, eye gouging, joint breaking, stabbing, shooting, being attacked with a used toilet brush....
> In *any* event, certain techniques will be left out. Training for pure SD doesn't. Thats all I'm saying, any event even those like UFC are still leaving out pure SD techniques that could save your life on the street.



And I say AGAIN..how do you know what their prior exp is?  Why dont you do a little research and then let me know.  Again, you avoid the question. Why is that??  Doing an armbar is much more complex than an eye jab, and I'll prove it to you.  I asked my wife, who has NO MA exp. at all, how she would jab someone in the eyes.  She took 2 fingers and poked towards my eyes.  Regardless of how she did it, the fact remains that she DID do an eye jab.  Now, if I asked her to do an armbar, shed look at me like, "What the hell are you talking about?"  

You make it sound like if you were attacked by a grappler that they wouldnt know what to do against your "Deadly" techs.  If you're assuming that they cant bite, scratch, kick, etc. then you're sadly mistaken.

Mike

7sm[/QUOTE]


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## MJS (Mar 30, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Thats fair, my only response is that your incorrect about CMA not using grappling. Its normally not taught because of one simply reason, student quit. See, grappling is not touched on until far advanced techniques, because you have to learn some basics skills first. To say CMA are void of grappling is to say all MMA are void of teeth. Some my be missing a few, but some have all of them and they are in good shape. I know, stupidest example ever, but it makes my point. CMA are full of grappling you only have to get your skill level to that point in feel and yielding an such to actually be effecient at it. But when someone gets to that point, watch out, they are extremely effecient at it.
> 
> 7sm



And, just like in Kenpo, there is some grappling.  There is grappling in many arts, but most of it is the standing type, which can be referred to as a choke or a grab.  What is the extent of the grappling in the CMA??

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Mar 30, 2004)

I've been quietly lurking on this thread for some time.  Unbelievable.  

7StarMantis:  I have to say you are living in some kind of 1970's Qui Chang Kane dream world.  So many of your basic assumptions are so wrong...I just don't know where to begin.  MJS has been doing it pretty clearly, but you just aren't getting it.  Let me just pick a few easy ones.  

1)  Most MMA fighters spend their training time learning techniques from boxers, kickboxers, wrestlers, judokas, and Jiu Jitsu fighters.  Most MMA fighters have a larger repertoire of techniques to draw from than those who train in only one (or one type of) martial art.  

2) Most MMA fighters spend their time sparring against partners who can choose to attack or defend in any just about any way at any time.  That is completely different than Kata practice.  If you can't see that, then there is truly no hope for you.

3)  Most MMA fighters have some type of prior training or street fighting experience.  They don't wake up one morning and say "Gee whiz, I've never been in a fight and I've never taken a martial arts lesson, not even when I was a kid, now I think I'll become a pro-fighter."  Most MMA fighters can kick to the head--don't you think they can kick to the groing too?  Most MMA fighters can punch to the head-don't you think they can poke you in the eye or hit you in the throat too?

You obviously haven't taken any time to go research any of this, read anything about MMA or Jiu Jitsu or visited or trained with any MMA fighters.  I could go on and on and on poking holes in your antiquated assumptions, but I am sure you won't listen to me either.


----------



## 7starmantis (Mar 30, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Doing forms and training for the UFC are the same? How do you figure that? There is much more aliveness in the UFC than in forms. You still seem to be avoiding my question too, so I'll ask it again. How do you know how a MMA trains?? How do you know that he doesnt have a prior background in another art? Also, as I've said before, doing a jab or groin kick doesnt take much thinking. I think you should talk to a MMA fighter and ask about their prior background. There is another thread here talking about the same thing. I think its in the gen. MA part. Another discussion about the UFC. As for kicks...well, Gracie has used them in his fights many times. Hmm...tells me something there. Let me give you an example of preset. In a kata, all of the moves are done at a certain time and place. Its basically fighting an imaginary opp. who is standing in just the right spot, throwing just the right attack. In the MMA, sure they have there set of armbars, chokes, etc, but they are NOT done in any special order. I think you're getting a little confused here.


Lets see, I didn't say doing forms and training for a UFC type event were the same, talk about twisting words. What I said was that they are both training in a preset series of techniques. If you can't agree with that we should stop this discussion now. Your talking about training for a specific event so prior training isn't what we are adressing. Just because I once took Aikido means I can use all aikido techniques in any fight I'm in for the rest of my life? I *did* answer your question several times but your not getting it. Let me try to phrase it monosyllabically enough for you to understand it. I'm refering to present training. Past training has no bearing on what we are discussing. You said this was about training for a specific event (_"If I was going to be training for a MMA event..."_), if thats the case your training that you do presently is all your taking into that event. Your past training from 8 years back when you did a seminar isn't going to be considered IMO. 
This kicks thing? What are you talking about? Who said anything about kicks? Kicks are used in UFC events, what does that have to do with anything? Groiin kicks are one thing, but thats not the issue here.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> There BG is UFC? BUT WHAT ABOUT PRIOR TRAINING?????? Eric Paulson has trained in a few different arts, but competes in MMA. So are you gonna say that he cant do any eye jab/groin kick?


So your saying your past training, which you no longer practice is actually going to be usefull in a UFC type event? I think you are horribly mistaken. Past experience is good, but if you don't currently train a technique, your going to loose effectivness with it, period. Is your questioned answered yet? Should I repeat it? We are talking about current training. If you practice some of your prior training in your getting ready for the UFC event, then that isn't prior training its current training, isn't it. 



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> You make it sound like if you were attacked by a grappler that they wouldnt know what to do against your "Deadly" techs. If you're assuming that they cant bite, scratch, kick, etc. then you're sadly mistaken.


Talk about twisting someone's words around! I actually train with grapplers twice a week. These are guys who train only in BJJ, Jujistsu, and Aikido. Actually one of them used to train with the Lion's Den in Dallas Texas, that give you some type of credidation? It shouldn't, but I'm sure it does. I never said any of "my" techniques were deadly. In fact, I've never said anything even close to me being able to fight against a MMA, or even anyting about my own training. Lets not degress to this type of arguing.




			
				Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> 1) Most MMA fighters spend their training time learning techniques from boxers, kickboxers, wrestlers, judokas, and Jiu Jitsu fighters. Most MMA fighters have a larger repertoire of techniques to draw from than those who train in only one (or one type of) martial art.


That is the height of assumptions. I don't disagree that MMA train in these types of systems. Fact is, we are talking about UFC type events and to say in that event, the fighters have a larger repertoire of techniques than any MAist is just simply wishful thinking on your part. Most MMA say the beauty of thier training is that its simplistic and refined, your saying its more complicated and full? strange.



			
				Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> 2) Most MMA fighters spend their time sparring against partners who can choose to attack or defend in any just about any way at any time. That is completely different than Kata practice. If you can't see that, then there is truly no hope for you.


Your explination of training sound remarkably like mine, and I'm a "TMA" by your standards. I agree that it is completely differnet from Kata/Form, I believe I've said that about 4 or 5 times in my last posts. Should I find them all and post them? I'm the one who said it first in this thread actually. Your not making sense man. We aren't discussing forms vs MMA, thats a different thread altogether. I'm saying they can compliment each other, yoru saying they can't, thats fine.



			
				Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> 3) Most MMA fighters have some type of prior training or street fighting experience. They don't wake up one morning and say "Gee whiz, I've never been in a fight and I've never taken a martial arts lesson, not even when I was a kid, now I think I'll become a pro-fighter." Most MMA fighters can kick to the head--don't you think they can kick to the groing too? Most MMA fighters can punch to the head-don't you think they can poke you in the eye or hit you in the throat too?
> 
> You obviously haven't taken any time to go research any of this, read anything about MMA or Jiu Jitsu or visited or trained with any MMA fighters. I could go on and on and on poking holes in your antiquated assumptions, but I am sure you won't listen to me either.


WEll, I would listen to you had you not made a list of fals assumptions about my training or what I was saying about training. I'll say it again, *this is not a thread on forms vs MMA*. I actually train with several MMAist. Surprise, you were wrong in yoru assumption again! I train for san shou which is full contact fighting with fewer rules than UFC. Surprise again! I actually train with a buddy in grappling and BJJ, once more a surprise I'm sure. 
Let me try this again...

*MY POINT IS THAT UFC EVENTS ARE A PRESET SERIES OF TECHNIQUES JUST LIKE FORMS/KATA. TRUE SD TRAINING SHOULD NOT CONSIST OF ONLY EITHER OF THESE.* That help? I've been saying that from the beginning.

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Mar 30, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> And, just like in Kenpo, there is some grappling. There is grappling in many arts, but most of it is the standing type, which can be referred to as a choke or a grab. What is the extent of the grappling in the CMA??
> 
> Mike


ACtually the extent of grappling in 7* mantis surprised me quite a bit. We don't do it early on because ew want you to learn some basic skills first, but once into it there is quite a big focus on grappling. We grapple more than any school in my area, I can tell you that much. I actually do a bit more than most in my school as I do some training with grapplers. The principles are the same standing as they are on the ground in mantis.

7sm


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## MJS (Mar 31, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> ACtually the extent of grappling in 7* mantis surprised me quite a bit. We don't do it early on because ew want you to learn some basic skills first, but once into it there is quite a big focus on grappling. We grapple more than any school in my area, I can tell you that much. I actually do a bit more than most in my school as I do some training with grapplers. The principles are the same standing as they are on the ground in mantis.
> 
> 7sm



Can you give some specific details about the grappling?

Mike


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## MJS (Mar 31, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Lets see, I didn't say doing forms and training for a UFC type event were the same, talk about twisting words. What I said was that they are both training in a preset series of techniques. If you can't agree with that we should stop this discussion now. Your talking about training for a specific event so prior training isn't what we are adressing. Just because I once took Aikido means I can use all aikido techniques in any fight I'm in for the rest of my life? I *did* answer your question several times but your not getting it. Let me try to phrase it monosyllabically enough for you to understand it. I'm refering to present training. Past training has no bearing on what we are discussing. You said this was about training for a specific event (_"If I was going to be training for a MMA event..."_), if thats the case your training that you do presently is all your taking into that event. Your past training from 8 years back when you did a seminar isn't going to be considered IMO.



You said preset moves and that is INCORRECT!  How are they preset?  I gave my example of what it is, why dont you provide one of yours?  And past training does play a part cuz you said that on the street, they wouldnt be able to use an eye jab, etc.  Now you're changing the subject to JUST present training, when prior to this post, we were both talking about street and UFC.



> This kicks thing? What are you talking about? Who said anything about kicks? Kicks are used in UFC events, what does that have to do with anything? Groiin kicks are one thing, but thats not the issue here.



Kics are used but NOT to the groin.  That is the point OFK and I are TRYING to make to YOU.  Just cuz they kick  to the head, does NOT mean that they cant kick to the groin.




> So your saying your past training, which you no longer practice is actually going to be usefull in a UFC type event? I think you are horribly mistaken. Past experience is good, but if you don't currently train a technique, your going to loose effectivness with it, period. Is your questioned answered yet? Should I repeat it? We are talking about current training. If you practice some of your prior training in your getting ready for the UFC event, then that isn't prior training its current training, isn't it.



Dude-I've been doing Kenpo for 17yrs.  Just cuz I dont train it everyday, does NOT mean that I can't fall back onto that training.  Will it be as crisp? Probably not, but it is not like you're gonna forget 17yrs of training.




> Talk about twisting someone's words around! I actually train with grapplers twice a week. These are guys who train only in BJJ, Jujistsu, and Aikido. Actually one of them used to train with the Lion's Den in Dallas Texas, that give you some type of credidation? It shouldn't, but I'm sure it does. I never said any of "my" techniques were deadly. In fact, I've never said anything even close to me being able to fight against a MMA, or even anyting about my own training. Lets not degress to this type of arguing.



You said that while the grappler shot in, you'd do a thumb to the eye.  And how do you know that you'll be able to pull that off, was all I was saying.  If you look back in your postings, you make hints to being able to easily defeat a grappler cuz they dont train with eye jabs, etc.  





> That is the height of assumptions. I don't disagree that MMA train in these types of systems. Fact is, we are talking about UFC type events and to say in that event, the fighters have a larger repertoire of techniques than any MAist is just simply wishful thinking on your part. Most MMA say the beauty of thier training is that its simplistic and refined, your saying its more complicated and full? strange.



BUt you STILL AVOID THE QUESTION.  Go back and do some research on their background.  Have you done that yet?  




> Your explination of training sound remarkably like mine, and I'm a "TMA" by your standards. I agree that it is completely differnet from Kata/Form, I believe I've said that about 4 or 5 times in my last posts. Should I find them all and post them? I'm the one who said it first in this thread actually. Your not making sense man. We aren't discussing forms vs MMA, thats a different thread altogether. I'm saying they can compliment each other, yoru saying they can't, thats fine.



Forms are not gonna help you fight.  





> *MY POINT IS THAT UFC EVENTS ARE A PRESET SERIES OF TECHNIQUES JUST LIKE FORMS/KATA. TRUE SD TRAINING SHOULD NOT CONSIST OF ONLY EITHER OF THESE.* That help? I've been saying that from the beginning.



NO THEY ARE NOT PRESET!!!  How do you figure that??? They have a set of locks, chokes, etc. but THEY ARE NOT DONE IN A PRESET FASHION.  IN A KATA, YOU NEED TO DO ALL THE MOVES EXACTLY IN THE SAME ORDER OF THE KATA, WHEN YOU'RE TRAINING A KATA!!

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Mar 31, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> You said preset moves and that is INCORRECT! How are they preset? I gave my example of what it is, why dont you provide one of yours? And past training does play a part cuz you said that on the street, they wouldnt be able to use an eye jab, etc. Now you're changing the subject to JUST present training, when prior to this post, we were both talking about street and UFC.


This is getting quite redundant. Let me try it this way.
1. UFC events do not allow certain techniques.
2. If UFC events do not allow certain techniques then therefore they only allow a certain database of techniques.
3. Since UFC allows only a certain database of techniques which are est prior to a fight, then UFC events only allow a preset (pre meaning before, and set meaning allowed) amount of techniques.

I'm confused as to your non-preset example, what would that have been? I guess I could give you an example of a move that is not allowed in UFC, would that answer your example question? OK, lets say elbow to the back of the head. That is not allowed, there is an example for you.

Now, let me clarify one thing. I never said on the street a UFC fighter wouldn't be able to use an eye jab. I did not say, maybe you should re-read this thread. If you continue to twist my words around we'll be done discussing. What I did say is that if you do not train in a certain technique (an eye gouge being one of those illustrius examples) then you will not be as effective with it if faced with a SD situation. What I said was that the UFC and Forms training are both not true SD training. That is the bottom line, if you believe otherwise that is fine, you have the right to be wrong.




			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Dude-I've been doing Kenpo for 17yrs. Just cuz I dont train it everyday, does NOT mean that I can't fall back onto that training. Will it be as crisp? Probably not, but it is not like you're gonna forget 17yrs of training.


Your missing the point. Not being as crisp is the point. You and I agree here.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> You said that while the grappler shot in, you'd do a thumb to the eye. And how do you know that you'll be able to pull that off, was all I was saying. If you look back in your postings, you make hints to being able to easily defeat a grappler cuz they dont train with eye jabs, etc.


Last chance to stop misquoting me. Any technique that I do against a grappler would be done in accordance with the situation, and the only way I would know to do it would be because I've done it a million times in training. Dont try and quote people's "hints" they tend to be differnet than what you think they are.

More later.....
7sm


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Mar 31, 2004)

7 Star Mantis:

You are misunderstanding the definition of pre-set.  By pre-set, Mike (and I) mean a pre-set order.  For instance, let us assign each movement a letter like A, B, C, etc.  Preset is: doing A, B, C, D, E, etc. in order with specific timing and positioning.  Two-man moves can be preset as well:  you do A, I do B, then you do C, then I do D.  Kata is pre-set.  

UFC and MMA are not preset.  If you do A, then I can do B or C or D or E or F or G or H, etc., etc., but not W, X, Y, and Z because they are illegal.    Order is not preset, position is not preset, and timing is not pre-set.

As far as eye gouging and groin kicking go...If that is the most important advantage your training gives you...then your training is woefully incomplete.


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## MJS (Mar 31, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> This is getting quite redundant. Let me try it this way.
> 
> 
> > 1. UFC events do not allow certain techniques.
> ...


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## 7starmantis (Mar 31, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> 7 Star Mantis:
> 
> You are misunderstanding the definition of pre-set. By pre-set, Mike (and I) mean a pre-set order. For instance, let us assign each movement a letter like A, B, C, etc. Preset is: doing A, B, C, D, E, etc. in order with specific timing and positioning. Two-man moves can be preset as well: you do A, I do B, then you do C, then I do D. Kata is pre-set.
> 
> UFC and MMA are not preset. If you do A, then I can do B or C or D or E or F or G or H, etc., etc., but not W, X, Y, and Z because they are illegal. Order is not preset, position is not preset, and timing is not pre-set.


I hear what your saying and I think you are correct except that your misunderstanding my point. Let's define preset; _"To set beforehand; adj : set in advance; "a preset plan of action"; "at a predetermined time""_ Now that we have that defined, lets define what we are dicussing. The topic is "UFC and such..." the topic being about CMAist in UFC events. 

Now, with those definitions lets layout what we are dicussing. We are dicussing only UFC *events* not MMA as a whole or MMA fighters, or any of the other things being brought up, only UFC Events. Now, using the definition of preset we listed earlier, we can see that UFC type fighting events are actually preset with certain techniques. I see what you guys mean about the order of forms but your mistaken a bit about forms training, I'll get to that in a moment. What I had said, is that niether UFC event training, nor forms training alone will give a realistic training for true self defense situations. Remember, lets seperate UFC *events* and MMA as a whole here. We are talking about UFC Events.

Now, the forms training is diferent than you are thinking, at least the way I do it. Your simple forms by yourself are preset, you are correct. Forms training to be realistic involves partner training where you use the form your working on and train the way you explained MMA with the A,B,C,D, or E scenario. Then you take all of your forms and you train that way including every technique you know, thats called Chi Sou. Then you step it up and go faster and faster, with more and more contact until you are using it full speed and power. Simple forms training alone is not eough however, and I've said that through this whole thread.



			
				Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> As far as eye gouging and groin kicking go...If that is the most important advantage your training gives you...then your training is woefully incomplete.


Thats my point. I don't know how this whole eye gouging and groin kick got isolated, what I was talking about was simply techniques not allowed in UFC. Here is a list someone posted earlier: 
Butting with the head. 
Eye gouging of any kind. 
Biting. 
Hair pulling. 
Fish hooking. 
Groin attacks of any kind. 
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. 
Small joint manipulation. 
Striking to the spine or the back of the head. 
Striking downward using the point of the elbow. 
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. 
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. 
Grabbing the clavicle. 
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. 
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent. 
Stomping a grounded opponent. 
Kicking to the kidney with the heel. 
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. 
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area. 
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent. 
These are all just examples of the type of fighting I was refering to. If your advantage your resting on is any technique, I think your in for some major trouble. Your advantage comes from your training and hard work, not some magical deathly technique.

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Mar 31, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> My point that I was trying to make is that just cuz you cant do certain things in the cage, does not mean that the fighters cant do them on the street. Again, I suggest you look at some of the fighters backgrounds to support your claims.


Your missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying what they do in the ring, I'm saying what you train for. If you are training for a UFC event your not going to waist time trianing tehcniques you will not use in that event. What I'm sayin is that is not realistic enough training for true self defense. Seems like I've said this before.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> So are you saying that just cuz I havent done my yellow belt techs. that I'm not gonna be able to use them in a fight? My point is, is that if someone does something long enough, its gonna be so engrained that it'll be almost impossible to forget.
> 
> So you're basically saying that just because you've done the tech a million times, that you'll be a sure shot to make it work against any grappler?
> 
> Mike


I wasn't going to grace this with a response, but I think I want to say a few things.
1.) Yes, I am saying that if you don't practice certain techniques you will loose effectivness with them. Doing somethign long enough will not keep it fresh in your movement, to rely on something you did along time ago many times is not wise.

2.) Your tendency to jump to conclusions and twist my words is getting obnoxious. I didn't say anythin was a sure shot man, in fact I said nothing is a sure shot. Why all this aignst about me vs grapplers? What do grapplers have to do with this? Are you assuming I'm not a grappler myself? What makes a person a grappler? Is it specific systems? What I'm saying is that techniques done in realistic trianing are more likely to be usefull ina pure self defense situation.

7sm


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## MJS (Mar 31, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> > Your missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying what they do in the ring, I'm saying what you train for. If you are training for a UFC event your not going to waist time trianing tehcniques you will not use in that event. What I'm sayin is that is not realistic enough training for true self defense. Seems like I've said this before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## 7starmantis (Apr 1, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Yes, I realize what you're saying. I think that we have all realized that we are separating the street vs ring techs, and what is used and what is not used. The point that I was simply making, is that you dont need to train for an eye jab, and again, I refer back to my wife. Sure, an eye jab is NOT used in the ring, but again, I also go back to my statement of, how can we assume that the ring fighters have no prior training? Look at Chuck Lidell. He trained in Kenpo. I think hes capable of doing an eye jab. {/QUOTE]
> 
> Lets stop using the example of eye jab. See I simply used that one technique as an example of the techniques I was refering to. I can see now that we simply differ in training mentalities. I'm of the belief that you should train as realisticly as possible, utilizing every technique that is usefull and possible. I see we differ there, and thats ok, we cna agree to disagree.
> 
> ...


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## someguy (Apr 1, 2004)

So you actually put out peoples eyes?
I know I'm takeing that quite aways away from what you said but still.
To fight even if its unrealistic so some extent is it worse than to not fight at all?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 1, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> So you actually put out peoples eyes?
> I know I'm takeing that quite aways away from what you said but still.
> To fight even if its unrealistic so some extent is it worse than to not fight at all?



Someguy:  you got it!  The fundamental question of martial arts training is this: 

which is more realistic?
* to train with limited techniques executed full-contact against a resisting partner or 
* to train with a wide variety of techniques that cannot be executed at all because they are too dangerous for the training partners.


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## 7starmantis (Apr 1, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Someguy: you got it! The fundamental question of martial arts training is this:
> 
> which is more realistic?
> * to train with limited techniques executed full-contact against a resisting partner or
> * to train with a wide variety of techniques that cannot be executed at all because they are too dangerous for the training partners.


I don't know any techniques that cannot be executed at all. Even eye gouges can be executed if your partner is wearing protection. Sure you can't execute a full power knee kick, but I don't think thats the point, you practice the full power knee kick on the bags.

I see your point, but I don't think I agree. The first scenario you mentioned still leaves you with a limited amount of techniques. If you are creative and serious you can find a way to train these "dangerous" techniques, that is *if* they are usefull.

7sm


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 15, 2005)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Someguy:  you got it!  The fundamental question of martial arts training is this:
> 
> which is more realistic?
> * to train with limited techniques executed full-contact against a resisting partner or
> * to train with a wide variety of techniques that cannot be executed at all because they are too dangerous for the training partners.


 Thats an interesting dichotomy.  Surely there's   a middle ground?  

 What most schools do is BOTH...train with full resistance using the techniques that are safe (sparring).

 And train WITHOUT full resistance in the techs that aren't.  (Drills)


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## Infrazael (Mar 15, 2005)

I hear of all these Thai boxers and boxers etc talking about Shadowboxing.

Then I was analyzing shadowboxing vs. my CMA forms (I'll stick to CLF since I can't speak for other peoples' styles). . . . . and then I realized something peculiar.

Shadowboxing - not a prearranged series of attacks? I'll use the boxer for example. Boxers do the following:

1. Weaving, and they are very good at it.
2. Hooks, jabs, crosses, uppercuts. Variations of those techniques, mostly.
3. Many of their combinations are extremely repetitive. Jab, jab, hook, cross, etc. Mixed together with excellent weaving. . . . . . that is their "shadowboxing."

Then I analyzed Choy Lay Fut's form Sui Mui Fah (small plum blossom fist set). First of all, CLF fighters don't learn weaving off the bat. Remove that from the list. . . . 

Second, CLF fighters don't obsess themselves with nothing but jabs and crosses. What we obsesses ourselves with are the 10 seeds and animal forms.

Thus, in a boxer's so called "shadowboxing" they will weave, jab, hook, then cross as an example, all the while using a boxer's stance. In CLF, our "form" will be a Sao Choy, gwa choy, fan jong, kup, then elbow, all done in CLF stances.

Therefore, my conclusion is that this "prearranged" set of attacks is present in every martial system, except perhaps excluding grappling like BJJ. However, the movement between systems are so different that it hardly seems a CMA form is even close to boxing shadowboxing.

My my 2 cents. . . . . . . 

Peace.


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 15, 2005)

The "straight blast gym" guy had an article on this very issue.  He argues the contrary...shadowboxing is supposed to be practicing trhowing DIFFERENT techniques, and AVOID falling into set patterns which make a boxer predicitable.  Apparently this is a perrenial problem for boxers, to fall into set patterns whch can be exploited by an opponent.


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## Infrazael (Mar 15, 2005)

Patterns. . . . when you get down to it, everything is in patterns.

Are you saying combinations are not patterns? Are you not saying footwork is not in patterns? You can limit the amount, duration, or the size of the pattern, but it is there.

The Muay Thai guy does patterns when he jabs, knees, elbows, and clinches. Why? Because there are only SO MANY ways you can combine techniques, especially with boxing, where there are barely any techniques beyond basic punching techniques (not a diss; they are very good at those).

Forms, in CLF at least represent predetermined sets, yes. But in every single form, moves are taken to different levels, lengths, etc. Some of my FAVORITE combinations are actually nothing more than PARTS of forms.

Leopard paw, Sao, Gwa, Fan Jong, Kup is found in Sup Gee Kow Dah Kuen. Gwa, Kum, Biu Jong is found in basic two. And these are merely basic combinations; the rest of each form, and various forms represent almost limitless ways to combine CLF techniques. That's why I believe forms are pretty damned important to CMA, it's because they contain the seeds for the applications.


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 15, 2005)

You'll note though that in CLF, the patterns vary, frequently the same setup will lead to a different ending.


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## Infrazael (Mar 16, 2005)

That's correct too. Gwa can be followed up with pretty much anything, allowing your opponents to also be surprised.


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## Isrephael (Mar 24, 2005)

Our school is primarily a CMA school, but several of our students (and our Si Bok) compete in no-holds-barred, UFC-style tournaments.  We devote an hour per evening to BJJ, but the rest of the time is primarily CMA (Tiger forms, Chin Na, et cetera).  From what I've seen, Tiger is an _excellent_ style for the striking needed in NHB/UFC/MMA fighting.  It provides long, mid, and short range striking.  The Tiger claw/grip lends itself well to locking in the Chin Na, and from there, you can slide seemlessly into BJJ to get the tap.


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