# Sifu Philip Holder



## Mos! (Dec 6, 2007)

Hey Guys,

Okay, I've been taking karate/kickboxing for most of my chilhood and teen years. I had friends who dabbled in White Crane Kung Fu and MoyYat Wing Chun and were kind enough to teach me alot of the basics. I had been taking formal training for some time in MoyYat until  my Sifu closed the school for certain reasons. I have of late been into the William Cheung Style of Wing Chun but couldn't find anybody close enough to my area of NY to commit to with my work and school schedule. So I have been visiting and visiting schools and sitting with teachers and to be honest the best spot so far is a school by one of Philip Holders old students.  These guys are really good and mix in Chin Na, Grappling and Kickboxing to make it more adaptable in different fight ranges.

The questions is...What is the deal with Philip Holder and why doesnt anybody like this guy. He completed all of Master Cheungs training ( any one of the Masters in the Traditional Wing Chun system vouch for it... they even say he was one of the first to complete both MoyYat/ TWC with high honors). But everytime I search Sifu Holder, somebody is bashing the guy like he's a scrub. 

Someone shed some light for me please.


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## hungfistron (Dec 6, 2007)

I'll have to look him up, I never heard of him...


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 10, 2007)

Mos! said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> The questions is...What is the deal with Philip Holder and why doesnt anybody like this guy. *He completed all of Master Cheungs training* ( any one of the Masters in the Traditional Wing Chun system vouch for it... they even say he was one of the first to complete both MoyYat/ TWC with high honors). But everytime I search Sifu Holder, somebody is bashing the guy like he's a scrub.
> 
> Someone shed some light for me please.


I think the highlighted sentence above explains a lot
William Cheung is a very dubious 'master' of the style
He makes outrageous claims that have insulted many of the martial arts world and also took sole responsibility for Bruce Lee's training 

The Bozteppi/Cheung fight speaks volumes...

The techniques (from what I have encountered by some of his American teachers) in his schools are flawed and not very realistic for use to an average civilian

I always keep an open mind about someone or their school until I experience their training and the two instructors who I trained with under the Cheung banner blabbed on that their system was the 'true wing chun'

Personally, training is training and Sifus should be humble. I have trained for a long time but still have a very long way to go. 

And mentioned in my other post, one of Cheungs instructors in Baltimore had a real lousy attitude


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## almost a ghost (Dec 10, 2007)

Wow, this is a name I haven't heard in a few years. Some fellow students and myself came up on his old webpage a few years ago, which has since expired.

1. He's calling himself a "Grandmaster", or at least was.

2. He's putting books out with techniques like these:
http://www.wingchun.com/img/holder.gif
http://www.wingchun.com/img/HoldHook.gif
http://www.wingchun.com/img/phkickd.gif


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## Gurokevin (Jan 20, 2008)

William Cheung? Philip Holder? RUN FOR YOU LIVESSSSSS!!!!!!!!

This style of WC absolutely sucks. I started in this style under a Cheung guy. I then moved to WingTsun, and then finally to the Wong Shun Leung way of Wing Chun. The Cheung and especialy the Holder people could not fight their way out of a paper bag, let alone a real fight. And William Cheung is just a lier, plain and simple. I went to one of his seminars years back, and left half way through when he started to make some ridiculous claims.


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## geezer (Jan 21, 2008)

Gurokevin said:


> William Cheung? Philip Holder? RUN FOR YOU LIVESSSSSS!!!!!!!!
> 
> This style of WC absolutely sucks. I started in this style under a Cheung guy. I then moved to WingTsun, and then finally to the Wong Shun Leung way of Wing Chun. The Cheung and especialy the Holder people could not fight their way out of a paper bag, let alone a real fight. And William Cheung is just a lier, plain and simple. I went to one of his seminars years back, and left half way through when he started to make some ridiculous claims.



C'mon Gurokev--tell us how you really feel! But seriously, rather than just bashing these guys, could you give specific examples of how these guys didn't measure up. Otherwise things get really political and nasty. And I say this as an old WT guy, so you know where I'm coming from. Nuff sed.


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## Gurokevin (Jan 21, 2008)

I really don't mean to get political. I just can't stand people who say that they have learned the "Real" way of doing whatever. Like William claims to have learned the "Real" wing chun from GM Yip Man. Its just BS. He has completely bastardized their wing chun and convinced good people that it is the one and only true wing chun. And Holder has just made it worse by making it more of a crappy system. And as far as their fighting ability goes, most of them do not train for reality. They do endless sequences of techniques which in my opinion (and Sifu Wong Shun Leung) is pointless, and there chi sao is not very good either. They leave themselves open way to much. I know this from personal experience. And 99% of the other people that I have talked to that do their styles say that they don't even spar. And if they do they use a lot of rules. I do not see a point in doing martial arts if you do not train to really fight. Anyways, I do not like either of their styles.

If I offend anyone, please understand that it is not my intention to do so.


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## lansao (Dec 6, 2016)

Hey @Mos. This is a super old thread and you may no longer be on it. That said, should someone search for my Sigung Philip Holder or my Sifu John Wahnish here (who operates the school in new york you referenced) I want to make sure an insider's perspective is offered.

I studied with Sifu John Wahnish starting in 2010. I have never met a kinder, more patient instructor. He accepted students from all arts and all backgrounds and took questions about application as opportunities to train our problem solving skills. He never pulled rank and shut down open discovery and questioning and we always walked away with a consensus on solutions that felt obvious and nurtured trust. At no point did he ever say his Wing Chun was better, or the true or real Wing Chun. I think to him, and to me, that would fly against his understanding of the art as ever adapting, growing, learning, incorporative, and ultimately limitless, regardless of lineage.

I met my Sigung once, and he was also truly kind and patient. It was a Chi Sao seminar, and he was all about giving of himself to the class. I detected no ego, no show boating, no claims, just focus on making our Kung Fu better. If you want to know more about Philip Holder, check out his writing on his website The North American Wing Chun Association | Hypnotherapy & Certification, Holistic Psychiatry, Medical at Masters-Center BodySmart Wellness. He shares so much perspective there that you really get a sense of the kind of person, master, and Sifu/Sigung he is.

If you want to learn more about my Sifu John Wahnish, he has a website for his school in New York Wing Chun as well as an online training school (that's pretty amazing) Wing Chun Online.

~ Alan, Wing Chun Student


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## Juany118 (Dec 7, 2016)

nvm necro thread


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## Gorio (Jun 25, 2019)

I started in 78, Taekwondo in Indiana for a couple years, entering the service out of HS and continuing Taekwondo in California for a couple more - returned to Indiana and studying more in depth with Philip Wade of the Fire Dragons in Kokomo, Pia Lum Tao and Kempo, competing USKA/PKC mainly in forms division (Bill Wallace was sometimes around, one of Judy's friends) ... also three years (85-88) PKC full contact (feather-weight) - loved working with the Wades and eventually left with tons of hardware, lol - when I moved to Gainesville FL, I studied under Philip Holder off and on for another 4-5 years (91-95 or there abouts) - I left MA in 95 as a result of what I saw as a more commercialized corrosion of the systems - to answer your question about (and yes he did refer to himself as a GM) Holder ... he was quite arrogant, corse, didn't believe in competition as much as combative's, and I mean 'everything' was about combative's (most of his more long term students were LEO's)... over time I became quite turned off to his views and his approach to what I still refer to as 'the art' - he did use me as a photo bad guy (opponent) once for a article in Kung Fu Magazine, lol


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## Highlander (Jun 25, 2019)

Alex Richter is a extremely talented WT guy through the Lueng Ting lineage. He school is in NY somewhere. I would recommend looking into him


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## yak sao (Jun 26, 2019)

Highlander said:


> Alex Richter is a extremely talented WT guy through the Lueng Ting lineage. He school is in NY somewhere. I would recommend looking into him



Manhattan


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## Marc Borkan (Dec 7, 2020)

Mos! said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Okay, I've been taking karate/kickboxing for most of my chilhood and teen years. I had friends who dabbled in White Crane Kung Fu and MoyYat Wing Chun and were kind enough to teach me alot of the basics. I had been taking formal training for some time in MoyYat until  my Sifu closed the school for certain reasons. I have of late been into the William Cheung Style of Wing Chun but couldn't find anybody close enough to my area of NY to commit to with my work and school schedule. So I have been visiting and visiting schools and sitting with teachers and to be honest the best spot so far is a school by one of Philip Holders old students.  These guys are really good and mix in Chin Na, Grappling and Kickboxing to make it more adaptable in different fight ranges.
> 
> ...



I learned the entire wing Chun system studying under Phil Holder when he was living in Florida and he is the real deal! His Wing Chun is powerful and effective.His lessons are truly combat oriented. He also teaches Wing Chun philosophy. I apply my training to my every day life!


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## geezer (Dec 7, 2020)

Marc Borkan said:


> I learned the entire wing Chun system studying under Phil Holder when he was living in Florida and he is the real deal! His Wing Chun is powerful and effective.His lessons are truly combat oriented. He also teaches Wing Chun philosophy. I apply my training to my every day life!



Glad you enjoyed your experience and welcome to MartialTalk. Always good to have another ¨Chunner¨ aboard.


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