# Special Taiji training methods ??



## Qi_man (Feb 5, 2009)

Hello All,

I was wondering what taiji training methods folks use (or know of) for developing qi, speed, power, balance, accuracy etc. I am familiar with some  typical methods such as Zhang Zhuang , chán s&#299; jìng, taiji ball, tu&#299; sh&#466;u,  etc

What I'm looking for are rare or unique methods that people know of and more interestingly, can explain how to do. Something along the lines of candle training (extinguishing candles using fa jin) or side stepping through swinging heavy bags, perhaps internal style Iron Shirt training, etc

Thank you for your help.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2009)

There are no secrets

There are no special training methods

There are no shortcuts

There is just training...lots and lots of training over a long period of time with a sifu that has done the same and understands Taijiquan


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 5, 2009)

Xue Sheng offers good advice on Taiji as usual.




> I was wondering what taiji training methods folks use (or know of) for developing qi, speed, power, balance, accuracy


 Some strange stories on developing Qi well to me there not so strange but I do not know anything esoteric with regards to Taijiquan training.

I guess you can try this weight lifting when practicing the form.






 

*Grand Master Tu Jin-Sheng is in the video he is famous for this exercise.*


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## Qi_man (Feb 5, 2009)

I think perhaps you misunderstand my question. I'm not looking for short cuts, I'm looking for additonal methods. Rare/unique, not secret. I' trying to extend beyond the more well known methods.

In a sense I would like to compile a list (for all here) of training methods, catagorize them and discuss their efficiency.

Sorry if I caused any confusion, and I think the question still remains unanswered.

Thanks,


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## seasoned (Feb 5, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Xue Sheng offers good advice on Taiji as usual.
> 
> 
> Some strange stories on developing Qi well to me there not so strange but I do not know anything esoteric with regards to Taijiquan training.
> ...


Where do I sign up. I got the old part down, I guess I just need to build up my.........


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2009)

Zhan Zhuang is a form of standing training and has many variations found in many CMA styles 

Chan Szu Chin,  Chan Ssu Kung, Chan Si Gong, Chan Si Jing (silk reeling) is from Chen Style

taiji ball is debatable as to where it is from

tu&#299; sh&#466;u is push hands and all its variations and in just about all styles of CMA

candle training is a parlor trick

side stepping through swinging heavy bags is more likely to be found in a Hong Kong Film than in taiji.

Training with a good Sifu and a lot of training for a long time and different styles have different approaches to training but the forms, various types of tui shou, sparing and associated Qigong that is all there is.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Xue Sheng offers good advice on Taiji as usual.
> 
> 
> Some strange stories on developing Qi well to me there not so strange but I do not know anything esoteric with regards to Taijiquan training.
> ...


 

:xtrmshock ummm.. aaaa... I think I'll pass :anic:


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## Qi_man (Feb 5, 2009)

Your point about training with a knowledgable Sifu is well taken and I recognize that you know the typcial methods (as do I). I also recognize that there  are numerous variations of those methods. I was hoping that this could be a forum for discussing them and possibly finding one or two that are new (for me and other readers). 

For example, In additon to my normal taiji training, Russian Kettle Bell training has helped me develop my fa jin and candle training has helped my accuracy (no parlor trick). 

 I welcome any knowledge you could share.


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## grydth (Feb 5, 2009)

Perhaps it would assist if you could detail what your "normal" Tai Chi training to date has been....


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## ggg214 (Feb 5, 2009)

Qi_man said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I was wondering what taiji training methods folks use (or know of) for developing qi, speed, power, balance, accuracy etc. I am familiar with some typical methods such as Zhang Zhuang , chán s&#299; jìng, taiji ball, tu&#299; sh&#466;u, etc
> 
> ...


 
rare or unique?
firstly, this kind of methods may be the key methods of styles. no one would tell you this.
secondly, this kind of methods may be only suitable for one person or some persons in same character. 
thirdly, this kind of methoeds may be totally based on different concepts of CMA.
so i think you'd better learn the rare or unique methods only from your si fu, not from other styles.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2009)

All I can say is that IMO weight training early in Taiji training is detrimental to said training, later in the training it can be helpful.

As to any new training in Taiji although I do not doubt that there is some that is helpful most that I have seen is attempting to shortcut actual training and tends to end up not Taiji in the long run

The only other thing I have to say on this is that if one has a good teacher that teacher knows better than the student what they are ready to learn so my best advice is listening to your sifu and don't argue or tell him/her what you want to learn. They will teach you when they know you are ready.
  
Developing fajing from candles and kettle bells, may I ask how?

If I may ask what style of Taiji and how long have you been training?


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## Formosa Neijia (Feb 6, 2009)

Qi_man said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I was wondering what taiji training methods folks use (or know of) for developing qi, speed, power, balance, accuracy etc. I am familiar with some  typical methods such as Zhang Zhuang , chán s&#299; jìng, taiji ball, tu&#299; sh&#466;u,  etc
> 
> ...



Why do people always want something exotic and worthless? Why do people always need a gimmick to keep them entertained? Why can't people just train hard?

You say you're "familiar" with the above training methods. Is that all?

Look, a lot of stuff is rare because it's _worthless_. 

That's why it's rare. Only a few things are rare and worthwhile. But until you've done your homework (and you sure sound like you haven't) then you won't see the utility of any of them.


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## mograph (Feb 6, 2009)

Along those lines, I have to ask: do you do Zhan Zhuang every day or have you just read about it, or tried it and found it difficult?

... the point being that tried-and-true training methods only bear fruit with diligent practice. If you are seeking other exotic training methods, maybe you haven't really given the old ones a chance.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2009)

mograph said:


> ... the point being that *tried-and-true training methods only bear fruit with diligent practice*. If you are seeking other exotic training methods, maybe you haven't really given the old ones a chance.


 
Keeping along the same lines as mograph said Qi_man I would suggest if you want to train strength and fajing in taiji and if you have been doing the long form for a while (greater than a year) train with the long pole (or staff - it is about 3 meters in length) if your sifu feels you are ready. 

Second for internal, something that I once felt was superfluous but I discovered I was looking at it all wrong, train the dao and the jain forms with intent. 

Taiji is made up of various forms (with variations between styles) both empty hand and weapons forms, Tuishou and related qigong train them diligently (as my Sifu likes to say) and you will get what you want.... but it takes time... more than most CMA styles.


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## Qi_man (Feb 6, 2009)

I must say that this thread did not wind up where I thought it would.

I do not seek to give up the methods that I train. I am not looking for quick fixes or cutting corners. I am not looking to substitute for a good teacher. I am not looking for magic potions....

I'm simply curious what other people do and/or things they have heard of that might be of interest (to know about and discuss). However, folks seem to be interpreting the issue as not knowing what or how to practice. 

I see that I'm not making headway with this topic so I'll drop the issue. 

Thank you all for your inputs. Good luck with your training !


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## Franzfri (Feb 7, 2009)

Just a thought, do aerobics, put weights on your wrists or ankles, do yoga.  Or supplement with related internal martial arts.  Cross training is a standard exercise benefit.  You develop other muscles and ways of moving.  We have an Akido teacher attending our Yang taiji classes.


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## Formosa Neijia (Feb 7, 2009)

Qi_man said:


> I'm simply curious what other people do and/or things they have heard of that might be of interest (to know about and discuss).



I see very little discussion of actual training methods here. All of the things that you mentioned that you're "familiar with" like tuishou, ball, spear and other weapons, don't get talked about much. 

Wanting to talk about exotica when tried and true methods aren't being discussed much isn't going to go very far.  

Instead, the CMA section of the board gets lots of posts about "crab kungfu" or "bat kungfu" and exotic training methods like this thread. It's not very productive.

If you want to generate discussion, why not stick to meat and potatoes topics?


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## SteffenBerg (Feb 8, 2009)

I also train with Kettlebells and Yoga (among other things) and also cross train in BJJ and to a lesser extent a form of Aikido. While doing this type of training is beneficial I think it is important to really get a handle on proper internal principles before venturing out and adding exercises from outside the IMA curriculum.

To me what's most important is developing proper structure and connection in all the endeavors I do... for instance when doing yoga or kettlebell, I pay particular attention to my structure which can be difficult when doing ballistic exercises with a kettlebell, and most Yoga instructors do not understand proper postural alignment which makes it challenging to practice Yoga with IMA in mind. The same goes for cross training... for instance, while training in BJJ I pay particular attention to structure (ground path), intent and moving from my centre. This again is difficult to do as most guys there are using a lot of muscles to try moving you. But if you've learned your internal lessons well you will be very hard to move and submit (even if you don't know many submissions). 

But I digress... I for one agree that it would be more interesting to have a discussion of for instance the purpose of some of the training methods already mentioned (like standing or silk reeling).

All the best,
Stef


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## KungfukennyG (Feb 9, 2009)

I believe you should look outside the internal arts to develop power, speed, etc. Cross-training is essential. Weight-training, plyometrics (among my favorites), core training, etc. I was at a Chen Xiaowang workshop when he was asked about Iron Shirt training. He said, "Iron Shirt is good for demonstration, not for fighting." I thought that was interesting.

Ken Gullette
www.InternalFightingArts.com


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## chi-ca (Feb 10, 2009)

Qi Man, based on answers you have given me in the past, I gather that you are not a novice and are, in fact, seeking much more advanced information from this forum. I believe that your skills far exceed my own but I will offer a push hands routine that you might find helpful.

My school works with several push hands routines that I find helpful for coordination and balance. It is difficult to describe an entire routine but I'm going to give it a shot: 

One such routine begins with a horizontal move followed by vertical move followed by a folding technique. These three "steps" are first done with single hands and then two hands and walking forward and back. The players take turns being on the offense and defense. Following that, the players go into grasping bird's tail. To describe all of that in detail would take ages and I'm not sure if it's what you're looking for. If you think it would be helpful, shoot me a message and I'll discuss it with you.


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## Qi_man (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks Chi-ca,  That is exactly the type of response I was looking for. Perhaps others will follow your example. 

In the broad stroke picture I was trying to capture and catagorize the various methods that people perform. 

   I think that there is a general progression in development from learning the structure to feeling the energy in you to  to feeling the energy in others to applying the energy and then refining based on feedback.  Each stage has a set of training methods, and I'm sure they are not all the same for everyone. 

Even though the catagories are pretty much the same (zhan zhuang, tuishou, etc)  the specifics and approaches can be quite different and interesting. I'm sure that if people shared even commonly practiced routines (such as four corners pushing hands) you will find that they are done very differently depending on their intention. By sharing those methods/intentions we as a community will increase our knowledge of taiji


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