# 8th Degree Promotion. Is this a Joke?



## Kenpo viking

This has to be the joke of the year. Dan Anderson has promoted himself to 8th degree he didnt even take the time to stop at seventh. But I may be wrong In that case when, were and under who did he test for 7th degree. I dont care if they done great things or has the time to step up but self-promotion wwwwooooo that will you make you a better martial artist. Or is it ego and not standing that there are others who are better and have been at the art longer then himself.

http://www.danandersonkarate.com/promotion.html


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## Disco

Asking for permission from people who are not in the same dicipline I guess is acceptable


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## Ender

Well, from what I read in here, after a certain level, if you make stuff up, you get promoted..*L...seems silly to me.


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## tshadowchaser

Just a friendly suggestion folks. Be polite say an give your thoughts if you wish but be polite.
   Now haveing aid that I ill say that if a person is the head of their oganization they must leave room for thoes under them to grow
giving onself a higher ank creats this room.
  I am not part of Modern Arnis and I will not judge what should be done or not done under that banner. If the man is the head instuctor, head of that part of the system, etc. whom are we to critisize what he dose with in the confines of his system.
With no one higher inhis organization whom would you suggest prmote him. There is no one with in his system and organisation
  If he deserves the rank or not is not my place to say (as an outsider) 
  I judge heads of systems by what they teach and by what their students  do not on how many stripes are on the belt

tshadowchaser:asian:


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## Cruentus

I'm a little closer to the issue then most of you. I'll say that first of all Dan ademently said in the begining that MA-80 was not it's own system, style, or organization; it was just his name for his interpretation of Modern Arnis.

Also, he is part of an organization, at least as it stands today. That organization is the WMAA. It has a technical director, and board of directors to determine rank in cases such as these. I am on the board of directors. We had all made the decision that we would promote Dan to 7th happily if he learned the WMAA curiculum. Dan didn't even have to use this curiculum for his own students; he just had to know it so that we would all be on the "same page" for belt promotions and events. Dan was even given a "position" in our organization as a West Coast Technical Director. I am sure this was done with the foresight that he would learn the curiculum eventually, and recieve his 7th through a WMAA promotion. As a board member this was my understanding and hope, anyways. Learning the white to black belt curiculum is somewhat important because it ensures that we maintain quality in our system; Modern Arnis. 

Since it was only the white to black belt curriculum, and it was Modern Arnis and not some other system, surely a "Senior Master" and 6th degree could have easily learned it. It wasn't like the board required him to learn a completely new system; for Dan it would have been just a matter of terminology, sequence, and MAYBE a new technique or two.

But instead of doing that and getting backed by a viable organization (WMAA) for his rank of 7th, he chose otherwise. Apparently 7th wasn't good enough for Dan. Dan took it upon himself to promote himself to 8th, and getting outside endorsements for his self promotion through MA-80 as it's own style/organization (I am not sure which it is anymore), even though MA-80 was "not a seperate system or organization" as originally explained by its "founder."

Needless to say as a board member, I feel underhanded. I am sure I am not alone on this. I was "suprised" to put it lightly, when I got the news.

The only question I have is "Why." Why Dan....Why?     

PAUL:ticked:


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## bloodwood

This was a response to one of the Questions I asked Dan concerning promotion and system back in October of 2002. I guess he couldn't wait any longer.

bloodwood
"You have answered several questions but still not whether MA-80 is a new SYSTEM or Your Curriculum. There is quite a difference. As Founder MA-80, as you have often referred to yourself as, seems to imply that it IS a NEW SYSTEM and like it or not, accept it or not, YOU would be the Grand Master/10th degree and your system would be listed with others such as Modern Arnis, Balintawak, Doce Pares, Sayoc Kali and so on. If it is only your Curriculum for your school, that is a horse of a different color".

Dan
"As to 10th Degree, again, Nooooooooooo! Remy Presas promoted me to 6th Degree. I will not promote myself to 10th Degree. At this point in time, Modern Arnis 80 ends at 6th Degree. If I receive a promotion by an organized body of martial artists or separately by a senior martial artist, I would accept that promotion".


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## Red Blade

Where did the promotion actually come from? :asian:


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## Dan Anderson

Folks,

Any questions about the promotion or who did the promotion are answered in the petition itself.  Kenpo Viking posted the url and you can read it.  I have answered paul and Bloodwood privately and I will do so with others as well.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Red Blade

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *Folks,
> 
> Any questions about the promotion or who did the promotion are answered in the petition itself.  Kenpo Viking posted the url and you can read it.  I have answered paul and Bloodwood privately and I will do so with others as well.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson *



:asian:


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## Dan Anderson

I just got an email from Datu Dieter Knuettel who made a very good point - This promotion is a Modern Arnis 80 *only*.  I want to make that very clear.  Modern Arnis 80 only.  Thanks, Dieter.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Red Blade

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *I just got an email from Datu Dieter Knuettel who made a very good point - This promotion is a Modern Arnis 80 only.  I want to make that very clear.  Modern Arnis 80 only.  Thanks, Dieter.*



Is there truly a difference between the two and if so, why not use a different name to eliminate any confusion?


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## Mickey

Dan Anderson may be one of the longest practicing Modern Arnis Players. He has a 6th degree and the title of Senior Master both from GM Remy A. Presas.

Dan Anderson also has the title Professor and rank of 7th degree in American Karate (* My Apologies if the name is not correct *), an organization he created and runs.

Mr. Anderson could have just added in the the Modern Arnis into his American Karate system, yet from recent posts and previosu posts it seems, he would think this to be disrespectful to his instructor in Modern Arnis GM Remy Presas.

So, he has a Modern Arnis 80 or MA-80 Program/curriculum/syllabus/system/organization. He wishes to keep the two separate. This is fine. I noted that in another Thread that the WMAA has wished him good luck. It does not seem like there are any bad feelings here. In keeping them separate, he has two different marketing programs and the personal beliefs and honor of respecting the individual history and lineage of each system.

Now as the leader/creator of a system one could be a grand master or other title that signifies this. As the creator of an organization his title could still be grand master, or any other title he chooses.

Mr. Anderson has chosen to petition those in Martial Arts that I think he respects, for their acceptance of his usage of this rank and or titles. This is his way of handling the issue(s).

Mr. Anderson can do anything he wants in his own system(s) or organization(s). It is his call.

In My opinion, if he wants to do this, then good for him and I hope he does well. Yet, in life no matter what you do you will never please everyone. The real trick is to try to please yourself and those you care about.

Best Regards

Mick
:asian:


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## DoxN4cer

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *Asking for permission from people who are not in the same dicipline I guess is acceptable *




It was good enough for Renegade's Lakan Pito (7th dan) as shakey as it looked, and few people on this forum cared to discuss it.  Look at Dan's web site and read carefully. Dan was promoted by a council of GM's as part of the WSHC.

Tim Kashino


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *It was good enough for Renegade's Lakan Pito (7th dan) as shakey as it looked, and few people on this forum cared to discuss it.  Look at Dan's web site and read carefully. Dan was promoted by a council of GM's as part of the WSHC.
> 
> Tim Kashino *



For me, and for most others who are close to modern arnis, [a great system of martial arts where the "structure" all revolved around one man, Remy Presas] Datu Tim's promotion wasn't a problem. 

Let's examine why. In the case of Tim's promotion, a large group of Juniors (Tim's students, WMAA members, and non-members) pushed for Tim to promote himself to 8th or 9th immediatly after RP's passing. Tim declined any sort of move such as this, as he felt it was too soon for that sort of thing. So we all waited. Finally the WMAA Board decided to try to make it a reality after enough time had passed. We all voted on the promotion, and voted to promote him to 7th (we debated 8th, but knew that Tim wouldn't accept). Then we networked to get other GM's and seniors to further validate the promotion. These GM's understood that this was a Modern Arnis Promotion through the WMAA, not a promotion in Tim's own art. Therefore, they took careful consideration, and then gave their recommendation.

When people train with Tim Hartman, their is no question that the promotion is a valid one.

Now, Dan's case is different. The board wanted to promote Dan in a similar manner that we did Tim, but felt that we all needed to be "on the same page" with the white to black curriculum. We felt that for Dan to be promoted by the WMAA, he would need to be able to sit on the board as a high rank for a test and know what the organization standard is for whatever rank the "testee" is going for. Provided that Dan learned this curriculum, he would have recieved a 7th degree promotion through the WMAA in Modern Arnis in a similar fashion as Tim.

There would be little disputing Dans rank if it occured in this manner.

Dan's rank is a different animal then Tim's, however. It actually causes more controversy then Tim's, and creates more disagreements. Here are some issues people will/ have been taking:

1. MA-80 is it's own style, created by Dan, based off Modern Arnis. Tim didn't create a style. Many people take issue with MA-80 as a style, and have so long before this rank stuff ever came up. The antagonists either don't think Dan should have made his own style, or they think that MA-80 is not differentiated enough to be called anything other then Modern Arnis.

2. People who are specifically WMAA have taken issue with the promotion based off of the "Way" it was done. In their eyes, Dan was offered a promotion on only one condition, and he turned it down, and went behind the back of the WMAA (while using WMAA contacts) to go through with his own promotion anyhow. Tim didn't "use" someone elses organization to get a promotion.

3. Some take issue with the fact that Dan took 8th. He gave himself a jump. Many seniors will take this as Dan thinking he is better then the other seniors out there, who other then some of the PI students, have not taken anything higher then 7th.

4. Some take issue with the fact that this looks like Dan promoting himself. In Datu Tim's case, a group of Juniors pushed to give Tim a promotion on Tim's behalf. In Dan's case, he pushed for a promotion on his own behalf. 

5. Some take issue with the fact that the first thing listed on "promotional Data" was a mistake. Dan states that he is the longest continuously training person in Modern Arnis in the States. I know of Jim Power and Rick Mangalong off the top of my head who have been continuosly training since the 70's. I am sure there are more "sleepers." Some think that this data may have effected the seniors decision to sign off on Dans promotion. Tim didn't have the issue of false info being present to the seniors who signed off on his promotion.

6. Some are just angry because "MA-80" just means more segmentation in Modern Arnis to them. We are already so seperated and segmented, and this is just one more seperation to add to the mess.

So Tim Kashino, I wouldn't compare the two. Dan's promotion and Datu Hartman's are 2 different animals. Dan's is actually more "controversial" when you look at the facts. Many will disagree with Dan, and many will back Dan up, but rest assured this is a cause for more "stir" then Hartmans promotion.

Now I must be fair and present both sides. Dan Anderson is my friend, and I have had the pleasure of talking all this out with him today.I have written a few of the "disagreements" above. I will explain his side as I understand it in numerical order coinciding with the above. It is up to the individual to decide how they feel about the situation. I will only present facts. 

PAUL    

P.S. I am doing this to help everyone. Many people are angry and can't articulate why. Others are supportive, and others don't care. It is all "emotion based" right now. I figure that I will bring logic to the table to give people something to work off of. This way we can have a logical discusion ruled by order, as opposed to a flame war ruled by emotion.


(* Edited for spelling of Jim Power - RP  *)


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## Cruentus

[This coinsides with the numbering in my above post.

1. Dan feels that it is his right to create his own style. The best way to figure out whether or not a style is valid is to first figure out "why" it was created it. What is the purpose for creating a style? What was Dan's reason? Dan's answer as I understand it: "The objective of MA-80 is to provide a vehicle for a student to learn Modern Arnis "in concept," not just in technique, in the same way that Remy Presas understood it, so one can hope to attain the level of skill that Remy Presas was able to obtain."

In Dan's defense, Dan feels that he didn't just create a system to be the king of his own style, or to provide a vehicle to give himself rank. He feels that he really has something to offer the Modern Arnis Community. Something that is so unique that it warrents a seperate name. 

2. Dan explained to me that it was not communicated well enough to him the conditions of the WMAA promotion. He was told, "The board declined your promotion because of lack of knowledge of the curriculum." Dan says that it was never stated until after the fact when I had talked to him that all he had to do was one little thing, learn the curiculum, and he would have gotton the endorsement. This is poor communication on many levels. Perhaps the WMAA didn't make the conditions as clear as we should have. Dan perhaps should have asked what these conditions were himself, or discussed his plans with the organization he was a part of before reacting. From a WMAA standpoint, this may be a sign for us to better communicate. However, I was not on the business end of communicating the conditions of a promotion to Dan, so I do not know where the blame lies. Probably somewhere in between.

The point is, Dan explained to me that he wasn't purposely trying to underhand the WMAA or Tim. He saw MA-80 and WMAA as 2 different animals; one being a seperate style (MA-80) and another being a Modern Arnis Org. He states that he didn't see the conflict between the two, or with what he was doing. He states that he wasn't intentionally trying to "stick it to" anyone.

3. Dan essentially used a mathematical "formula" to determine what rank he should have. He explained that he used the standards of RP's "Pink Book," and historical presidence. Historically RP promoted Dan by "skipping" belt levels, and Dan never recieved a consecutive rank (like 1st to 2nd). Rather it was something like 1st, then 3rd, then 6th. We can draw our own conclusions as to why Prof. did it this way for Dan. This was Dan's logic in figuring 8th. In his defense, this logic was seperate from what other high ranked players are doing. He didn't say "I am better then so and so, so I chose 8th."

4. Dan's response was basically that sure some will take issue, but hopefully they'll recover. MA-80 is Dan's system, so technically he didn't need to ask anyone for a recommendation. He did so to further validate it. It is up to the individual to decide how valid you believe Dans 8th is.

5. Dan explains that this was not intentional. He has already previously posted an apology to Jim Power. He admits the mistake, and he is further going to check with those who signed off on the promotion to make sure there is no bad feelings.

6. Although this may be true, to Dan, MA-80 is not an attempt to further segment modern arnis. Dan feels that MA-80 is something that all Modern Arnis players and practitioners can benifit from, regardless of affiliation.

So, those are some rebuttles on Dan's behalf, based off my conversation with him. As I understood it, I could post these viewpoints if it came up. I posted them void of my own opinion, so you can decide how you feel about the circumstance in a logical manner, without things being "spin doctored" If I made a mistake, or if there is anything I forgot to add, I am sure that Dan A. can fill in the blanks. If others out there have opinions they would like to express, I am sure that people would be interested in hearing them.

Remember this post it void of my own personal opinion. I will post one more time, just to express how I feel about the situation overall.



(* Edited for Spelling of Jim Power - RP *)


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## Cruentus

In a perfect world, I would have liked to see Dan learn the WMAA ciriculum to get a promotion through the WMAA. This was what the Board intended, and I stand behind the decision. I am not happy with the progression of events here. I do feel that this further segments the art.

On the positive side, I am not angry at Dan, nor do I think that he did anything with malicious intent. I do believe strongly that Dan thinks that he is doing the best thing for the art with his decisions.

I personally think the best thing would have been the 1st route: a WMAA 7th degree. Due to lack of communication, misunderstanding, or whatever, this will now never become a reality. So, is Dan's promotion/decisions the second best thing? I do not know, personally. I do want to see the best thing to happend for the art, and I do want to see Dan happy and successful. So, for the sake of that, I do hope that this decisions will work out well for everyone.

Only Time will tell....


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## Dan Anderson

Hi Folks,

Paul's last three posts are the culmination of about a two hour long conversation I had with him this morning.  One thing about Big Daddy Paul is he _will_ talk to me if he feels something is wrong.  And talk we did.  Paul did a pretty good representation of what we went over, the pros and cons, the things which he agreed with (not much) and disagreed with (lots).  It was a very good talk.  We were friends when we started and friends when we ended.  I cleared up a lot of questions he had.

A couple of points I do want to make are these:

1 - I have no problem with Tim's or Dieter's or Kelly's or (the next one's) promotion and future promotions.  NONE.  Their promotions are a non-issue with me.  They have all done a tremendous amount of work in their respective geographical and topic areas and recognition was given.  Period.

2 - The only trouble, if one could call it that, has been a lack of communication from the WMAA board to myself about certain specific matters.  I think the WMAA is on the right track.  I have made some very good friends in WMAA.  Tim has personally opened doors to me so I could do seminars.  And oyyy, the late nights and our friend, John (the Gentleman) Daniels.

Harold Evans posted on another thread asking about MA 80 and there I posted a description for his and anyone elses benefit.

After Paul thanked me for answering his questions and clearing up misunderstandings, I said if he wanted to, he could post up what we talked about in this thread.  Paul, it must've taken some time to do it as we talked for qutie some time but thank you for doing so.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Jeff Leader

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *The only trouble, if one could call it that, has been a lack of communication from the WMAA board to myself about certain specific matters.*



I am the only person authorized to speak on behalf of the WMAA Board of Advisors, and am solely responsible for any failures of communication on the part of the Board. No one else speaks for the WMAA Board of Advisors--not even members of the Board.

The Board will respond to any requests made to it but, as an advisory board, will not typically initiate such a discussion. (There are of course exceptions.) To date the only questions asked of the Board have been asked by Mr. Hartman. I have responded to Mr. Hartman regarding all those matters (after having conferred with the board members).

Anyone with a question for the Board should contact me directly or in care of Mr. Hartman. I check this account only rarely so it would be preferable to contact me using my primary account.

-Jeff Leader
&nbsp;Chair, WMAA Board of Advisors


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## tmanifold

Dan I think you went about it in the right way. Rather than having juniors promote you or some org unilaterally promoting you, you asked to be judged by a group of your instructors peers. 

I know some people will have a problem anytime there is a splinter group or division in an art I think you made a sincere effort to stay as credible as possible.

Tony


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by Jeff Leader _
> *I am the only person authorized to speak on behalf of the WMAA Board of Advisors, and am solely responsible for any failures of communication on the part of the Board. No one else speaks for the WMAA Board of Advisors--not even members of the Board.
> 
> The Board will respond to any requests made to it but, as an advisory board, will not typically initiate such a discussion. (There are of course exceptions.) To date the only questions asked of the Board have been asked by Mr. Hartman. I have responded to Mr. Hartman regarding all those matters (after having conferred with the board members).
> 
> Anyone with a question for the Board should contact me directly or in care of Mr. Hartman. I check this account only rarely so it would be preferable to contact me using my primary account.
> 
> 
> -Jeff Leader
> &nbsp;Chair, WMAA Board of Advisors *



I just wanted to reinerate that in my series of posts, I was speaking for myself and relaying a conversation between Dan and I (with permission). My opinions are my own. It was not an "official" statement. I was not speaking for the WMAA, on behalf of the WMAA, or for the WMAA Board of directors. It is not my job to speak for the WMAA or the Board; that is left up to Tim Hartman or Jeff Leader. Although it may have appeared at times that I was speaking for the Board, this was not my intention.

So please direct any questions for the Board or the WMAA towards Jeff Leader or Tim Hartman.

Thank you,
Paul Janulis


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## Dan Anderson

Jeff,

It was a private conversation and was not represented to me as anything but that.  I do know Paul does not speak for the board.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> *Dan I think you went about it in the right way. Rather than having juniors promote you or some org unilaterally promoting you, you asked to be judged by a group of your instructors peers.
> 
> Tony *



Just wanted to correct your statement a little. If the promotion had gone the other way, it would not have been a just group of juniors promoting. Also, it would not have been "some org unilaterally promoting." Dan was a WMAA member so the promotion would have came from the Org. he was a member of; this is not the same as an org. that he is not a member of unilaterally promoting. Also, Juniors would not be the ones promoting him; other instructor peers would have been the ones signing off on the promotion just the same. However, "Juniors" would have advocated his promotion, gotton the "instructor peer and senior" signatures, and signed off on his behalf rather then Dan having to do this himself. I believe I explained this adequetly if you re-read my posts above.

Understand, I mean no disrespect and I am not faulting you for agreeing with Dan's actions. I just wanted to prevent any misconceptions.

Thank You,
PAUL
:asian:


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## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Just wanted to correct your statement a little. If the promotion had gone the other way, it would not have been a just group of juniors promoting...  Dan was a WMAA member... Juniors would not be the ones promoting him...
> PAUL
> :asian: *



Riddle me this, Batman,

Did any of you know that I was _never_ ranked by WMAA in the first place?  In that respect, there are no junors to rank me as I was the most junior.  They were ALL my seniors!  Hey, Kaith!  Fancy that!

You know, in fact, I am also a white belt in MARPPIO, IMAF (Delaney), IMAF, Inc. (Shea), WMAC, IMAF Philippines, DAV, as well as Cromwell Martial Arts headed by my old pal, Frank Shekosky.  How's that for cold taters?

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Bob Hubbard

Heh.  I'm a senior.  No wonder I feel old. 

Actually Dan, you were listed on the WMAA site as a 6th degree.  (I know cuz I maintain the website).  I don't of course know the organizational side of it. If it was a reconization or a ranking (or how folks will define either).

But, ya was dere.

I can't comment on the other orgs as I'm still working on bringing all of them under my banner....


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## stickarts

Well Dan, in that case, you sure are one HECK of a white belt!! :0)
CMA certainly recognizes you as the senior (in Arnis / martial arts!) that you are.
Hope to train with you again in the near future.


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## arnisador

The WMAA respects all ranks granted by the Professor. Hence, the WMAA considered Mr. Anderson a 6th degree black belt. This has always been our policy.

If the Prof. granted you a Lakan X, the WMAA considers you a Lakan X (or possibly higher--ranks from other groups are considered on a case-by-case basis).


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## stickarts

that sounds fair enough!


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## DoxN4cer

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *
> So Tim Kashino, I wouldn't compare the two. Dan's promotion and Datu Hartman's are 2 different animals. Dan's is actually more "controversial" when you look at the facts. Many will disagree with Dan, and many will back Dan up, but rest assured this is a cause for more "stir" then Hartmans promotion.
> *



Paul, I'm not stirring controversy.  I'm stating the facts. Tim's promotion looked extremely shady...  just calling it like I see it.

While I can agree that the two promotions are two different animals, I cannot agree to your statement that Dan Anderson's promotion is more controversial than Tim Hartman's. I do agree however, that this further splinters Modern Arnis.

Tim's promotion came from within his own organization in which he is the highest ranking member. His promotion though endorsed by two GMs outside of his organization, came from board members from his organization ranked lower than he is. 

Dan's promotion came from a council of GMs with the endorsement of more than two (five?) GMs outside of his organization. Dan was recognized and duly promoted by and inducted into the WSHC by  men "above" his status and elevated by the members of that organization.  He was promoted by his seniors and peers, not by a board of his own students.

Had Tim petitioned the WHSC as Dan had; or received his promotion from his seniors in the art like Dieter Knuttel or Kelly Worden had, his credibility and the legitamcy of his promotion to 7th dan/Lakan Pito would not be an issue. 

Tim Kashino


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## DoxN4cer

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *Riddle me this, Batman,
> 
> Did any of you know that I was never ranked by WMAA in the first place?  In that respect, there are no junors to rank me as I was the most junior.  They were ALL my seniors!  Hey, Kaith!  Fancy that!
> 
> You know, in fact, I am also a white belt in MARPPIO, IMAF (Delaney), IMAF, Inc. (Shea), WMAC, IMAF Philippines, DAV, as well as Cromwell Martial Arts headed by my old pal, Frank Shekosky.  How's that for cold taters?
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson *



So Dan, nobody is recognizing your Lakan Anim from the Professor?  Did I read that right? Cold shot from the "splinters".

Tim


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## tmanifold

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Just wanted to correct your statement a little. If the promotion had gone the other way, it would not have been a just group of juniors promoting. Also, it would not have been "some org unilaterally promoting." Dan was a WMAA member so the promotion would have came from the Org. he was a member of; this is not the same as an org. that he is not a member of unilaterally promoting. Also, Juniors would not be the ones promoting him; other instructor peers would have been the ones signing off on the promotion just the same. However, "Juniors" would have advocated his promotion, gotton the "instructor peer and senior" signatures, and signed off on his behalf rather then Dan having to do this himself. I believe I explained this adequetly if you re-read my posts above.
> 
> Understand, I mean no disrespect and I am not faulting you for agreeing with Dan's actions. I just wanted to prevent any misconceptions.
> 
> Thank You,
> PAUL
> :asian: *



When I said "unilaterally promoted by some Org" I meant some org he is the head of.

I still like his idea of getting his deceased instructors peers to sign off on the rank he felt he deserved. In my view that is the best way I have ever seen anyone go about recieving advanced rank after there founder/teacher died. 
I am not pointing fingers at WMAA or anyone else but I have seen way to many organizations whose senior members all promote each other to very high rank, rank which I am sure would not have been award by founder in many cases. 
Look at the kenpo world for example (which is why it is so ironic that the starter of this thread is Kenpo Viking). All these people are know 8th, 9th or 10th dans, how many 8th and above do you think Paker would have promoted? A handful at most and probably no 10th dans. Even the Kenpo Connection guys who used to pride themselves on the rank they were given by parker (as shown in the ads) now are 10th dans.

Again good job Dan.

Tony


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## Rich Parsons

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am very glad that people have been able to express their concern, their qustions, and their opinions on this thread, and to still within reason remain polite and semi - friendly. I do hope that it will continue to remain this way.

Thank You from a Member of the Modern Arnis Community.


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## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *The WMAA respects all ranks granted by the Professor. Hence, the WMAA considered Mr. Anderson a 6th degree black belt. This has always been our policy.
> 
> If the Prof. granted you a Lakan X, the WMAA considers you a Lakan X (or possibly higher--ranks from other groups are considered on a case-by-case basis). *



Jeff,

Since this is a rather _charged_ subject, I thought I'd lighten it up a bit.  My post on not being ranked in WMAA, et al, was done very tongue in cheek.  Frank Shekosky got it right away.  Hey, since the above was posted, can I get one of those cool WMAA certs?  Back dated and later cancelled, of course.  C'mon guys - that deserves at least a chuckle.  

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Red Blade

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *Paul, I'm not stirring controversy.  I'm stating the facts. Tim's promotion looked extremely shady...  just calling it like I see it.
> *



Tim K.

Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? After all you were involved with the Norshadow scam. It seems that you might have an axe to grind with him.


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## loki09789

Let's look at the information as it is laid out:

1.  Dan petitioned a higher ranking committee that he had no direct affiliation with, put a resume on the table that included 4 publications as well as his training and contribution to the art and they recognized his work and awarded him a rank and agreed to support his curriculum.  

     How many black belt/instructors has he produced?
     How large an influence has he had on the art?
     What has he done to gain further mastery of his art?

2.  Tim was promoted from within his organization by a committee of peers/juniors. Same basic questions as above about students and stuff...   

If this were an issue in a commercial business/or government department, which would look like either unethical business practices or conflict of interest to an outsider?

I DON"T really care about rank and who's who in this issue, I just don't like it when someone makes a post and someone else tries to play FBI Profiler to sift through secret motivations and agenda's.  Argue the evidence/observable details and that reduces the pettiness that can lead to mayhem.

Paul Martin


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *Since this is a rather charged subject, I thought I'd lighten it up a bit.  My post on not being ranked in WMAA, et al, was done very tongue in cheek. *



I suspected so but I wanted to make sure no one misunderstood _our_ policy, esp. because this very issue has come up before where others were concerned!


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## MJS

Originally, I wasnt going to post regarding this, but I have changed my mind.  IMO, rank is not as important as some make it sound.  It doesnt matter if you have 1 stripe or 10 stripes on your belt.  The fact of the matter is, is that it does not turn you into a superman!  What really matters is the knowledge that you have, how well you understand and can apply the material against someone who is resisting, and what you have given back to the art.  Granted, some people who wish to go on their own with their own org. are entitled to pretty much do what they want.  Dan has chosen this path, and I wish him the best of luck.  Even though I have never had the chance to meet or train with him, I have heard many good things about him.  

Once you reach a certain point in whatever art you study, there really isnt much more to learn.  After a while, your promotions are more of what you have given to the arts, rather than learning another tech. or kata.  Dan has been promoted to the rank he is, by people who in their own right, are very skilled MA's, and I'm sure that they would not have given that rank to him if they felt that he didnt deserve it.

There are many people out there, especially in the Modern Arnis world, (Who will remain nameless) that have not nearly contributed as much as some, yet they still run around hanging the title of "Master" or "Grandmaster" around their neck.  Again, like I said in the beginning, IMO, rank isn't that important.  The people who do this might be fooling some, but there are many others out there that know the real truth about them.

Again, Dan, I wish you the best with your Org. and I look forward to someday, having the chance to meet or train with you.

Mike


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## Dan Anderson

Paul,
"How many black belt/instructors has he produced?
How large an influence has he had on the art?
What has he done to gain further mastery of his art?
 Good questions.  1 - Not many, 5 or 6 I believe.  Modern Arnis has been a smaller segment in my school.  2 - Hard to say.  I've worked with many, many people over the years at camps and seminars but have never taken any kind of poll as to how much influence I've had.  I do know that in the recent year and a half my books have met with great reviews so there is an influence of sorts.  3 - I am researching the roots of Remy Presas' art by studying balintawak eskrima under Manong Ted Buot.

Mike,
I'm not going anywhere so we will meet and train together some day.

Jeff,
Just checkin'.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Cruentus

*Tim K:* We can agree to disagree here if it comes down to it, but I need to understand your logic. Right now, I don't. I still believe Dan's promotion stirs more controversy for the reasons that I stated right from the begining, and I am having a hard time seeing how you can logically think that Dan's promotion was somehow non-controversial, and Tim's was "shady."

However, let me restate exactly where our disagreement lies just so I can understand. 

Exhibit A: Someone petitioned for themselves (Dan A.) to get promoted to the highest "Modern Arnis based" rank in the States in there own style (MA-80 in this case), one that is based off modern arnis, by 4 seniors/peers. 

Exhibit B: A group of junior students (who were not all Tim students, and were black belts under Remy Presas; most of who were Remy's students first and formost) petitioned Seniors (in this case 2) for an individual on that individuals behalf to get them promoted to there next rank in Modern Arnis, not their own style.

You think Exhibit B is somehow "Shady" and Exhibit A is somehow O.K.. I think that this is wrong. I think that when you look at the "bare-bones" facts, niether one is SHADY. I would contend that Exhibit A leaves more room for arguement due to the mere fact that the individual petitioned for himself in Exhibit A. 

I'll contend my point through example: Let's say I were to be deemed "King of the Universe." Which would be better, a following of people petitioning for me, then eventually crowning me "King of the Universe," or I petition for myself to be deemed "King of the Universe," and I hope to God that people will agree with my title later on? See what I mean? Now I don't think that Tim or Dan thinks that they are King of the Universe; I was just using the obscure example to make my point. But you see; I feel that it is more "valid" for people to work on your behalf to get you any rank or award, rather then you work on your own behalf. 

Also, in Exhibit A, the individual created his own "style." This causes more contention for controversy in that "Is this 'style' valid"? It was based off of Modern Arnis, so is there enough seperation between the two for it to be considered it's own style? I am not saying that Dans style is "invalid", but I am saying that this leaves more to contend then Exhibit B.

So, this was just Exhibit A and B; where our 'point of disagreement' lies. What about the 5 other major possible points of contention that I mentioned? These points of contention are are non-existant in Tim's promotion. Are these of non-importance somehow?

Well...I don't know. I'm fine with you being "O.K." with Dan's promotion. What I can't figure out is how you can honestly conclude, after logically looking at all the facts, that Tim's promotion was somehow "Shady," and Dan's was non-controversial. The only reasoning I can think of is that your biased against Tim Hartman. I know the same arguement can be made against me, that I am biased for Tim Hartman. However, I think that it is important to look at facts and logic to overcome our biases. When Looking at facts in logic, I just don't see how your arguement "fits."

Some other points to be addressed:

*Number of Senoir Sign off's:* This is a mute point. Dan got 4 instructor sign off's, Tim Got 2. This doesn't matter in reality, but you pointed this out as if it does. Tim didn't get more then 2 sign-offs because we didn't feel he needed more then 2. He could have obtained more then 2 easily. He could have got more then 4 easily. I am sure that Dan could have obtained more then 4 also. If this was thought to matter, then Modern Arnis seniors would all be in a contest to see who could get the most sign-offs. This would be ridicules. So, How many instructors actually signed off on the promotions is a mute point.

*World Soke Council:* This doesn't particularly validate anything. This Council evaluates a situation and gives out awards. Dan got a founder of the year award from them. Tim got Modern Arnis Man of the Year award. These are nice awards, but the council is only there to recognize achievements, it doesn't validate someones "rank" or even "style." In other words, The Soke Council doesn't validate Tim's Rank or Dan's Rank, or Dan's Style because it is not designed for that purpose. 

I mention this because you twice mention the WSHC as somehow making Dan's rank more valid then an Organizational promotion (WMAA). This can't really be the case when you look at what the WSHC is designed for. Bottom line: Dan was ranked through MA-80 with instructor sign-offs. Tim was Ranked through WMAA through instructor sign-offs. WSHC doesn't make the difference one way or the other from a promotional standpoint.

So, these are some points of contention, Tim K. I don't expect to change your views, for only you can do that for yourself. I just want to see things from your viewpoint (which I am having a difficult time doing) and allow you to see things from mine.

Respectfully,

Paul Janulis

Disclaimer: I am not contending that anything that Dan Anderson does is "invalid" here. I am just bringing up possible points of contention, and argueing facts. :asian:


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## Cruentus

Good points. I didn't think that you were finger pointing, but it could have been construed that way.

Nice Post.


----------



## Cruentus

Nice Post, Paul Martin!

You ask some very interesting questions, and bring up some interesting thoughts.

One question, though, regarding this...



> I just don't like it when someone makes a post and someone else tries to play FBI Profiler to sift through secret motivations and agenda's



Who dat? Is this just in general or are you refering to someone specific? I'm and not trying to put you on the spot, but I honestly don't know exactly who you might be refering to here.

I like this one: 



> Argue the evidence/observable details and that reduces the pettiness that can lead to mayhem.



I couldn't agree with you more. That is why in this case I do try to set my personal biases aside to logically look at the facts.

 :asian: 

PAUL


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## Bob Hubbard

So...let me see if I've got the players ranks/etc straight:

Tim Hartman - 6th under Remy, 7th under WMAA both modern arnis
Dan Anderson - 6th under Remy Presas modern arnis, 8th MA80
Kelly Worden - 6th under Remy Presas, 7th from Presas Family ?? both modern arnis
Dieter Knüttel - 6th under Remy Presas, 7th under PI masters.

So, how is Dans 8th in MA80 different from his 6th in Modern Arnis, or his 7thin Karate?

Or is Dan saying that his 8th in MA80 is a promotion from his 6th in MA?

Is the problem that Dan asked?
I don't know if Dieter did, but I don't believe Tim or Kelly did.

Are all of the seniors supposed to freeze where they were?

I've seen argument that Tim was wrong cuz his juniors pushed for the bump.  Seems thats common in other arts though.  Kenpo comes to mind.

I've seen the argument that Dan was wrong because he asked.
I've heard of systems where you don't test until you ask.

Course, the argument here can also be made that out of these 4 seniors, only Dieter actually tested for 7th.  Dan skipped straight to 8th without a test.  Tim tested for his 6th, but did any of the other 6ths actually test?

You see, depending on how you look at it, we can argue all sides.  I don't think we will actually find a resolution though.

Someone will always find issue.

Then again, maybe the real answer is a simple one.
Each did what was right for them and their respective paths.

:asian:


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## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *1 - So, how is Dans 8th in MA80 different from his 6th in Modern Arnis, or his 7thin Karate?
> 
> 2 - Or is Dan saying that his 8th in MA80 is a promotion from his 6th in MA?
> 
> 3 - Are all of the seniors supposed to freeze where they were?
> 
> 4 - You see, depending on how you look at it, we can argue all sides.  I don't think we will actually find a resolution though.
> 
> 5 - Someone will always find issue.  Then again, maybe the real answer is a simple one.  Each did what was right for them and their respective paths.
> 
> :asian: *



Kaith,

Being the voice of reason again?  You rascal.

1 - My 6th is in _Remy Presas Modern Arnis_ under Prof. Remy A. Presas.  My 8th is in _Modern Arnis 80 (MA 80)_, my style of Modern Arnis which I got permission from Remy Presas to establish.  My 7th is in _American Freestyle Karate_ and the promotion is from the American Teachers Association of the Martial Arts (ATAMA).

2 - No.  My 6th in Modern Arnis is what and where it is.  My lineage in Modern Arnis was directly from the founder, no middle men, to me.  That rank was directly from the founder.  The founder is gone.  _That_ "chain of command" is gone.  _That_ rank is frozen.

3 - That was the problem which several of us took different routes to handling.

4 - Yep, yep and if I didn't make myself clear, yep.

5 - Yes, we did.  And even then as you said, someone will always find issue.

Interesting comments all around regarding this topic.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## bloodwood

There have been some very good points brought up on this thread except for obvious bias of Tim K towards Tim Hartman. Tim K is a DrB affiliate and after the nonsense at the symposium, any comments directed at Tim Hartman by the DrB camp should be considered antagonistic in nature. So far this has been a good exchange, so lets look at the FACTS carefully.

I have had many exchanges with Dan in the past and I will say that at least he answers all questions put to him regardless of whether we agree or disagree with him. Dan has put himself in an acquired situation AGAIN and if he's willing to take the heat he has that right. One thing he doesn't need is other people using  there own ill feelings to stir up trouble on his behalf. He doesn't need that kind of help. I would think he's looking to make friends, not piss people off.

bloodwood


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## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> *There have been some very good points brought up on this thread except for obvious bias of Tim K towards Tim Hartman. Tim K is a DrB affiliate and after the nonsense at the symposium, any comments directed at Tim Hartman by the DrB camp should be considered antagonistic in nature. So far this has been a good exchange, so lets look at the FACTS carefully.
> 
> I have had many exchanges with Dan in the past and I will say that at least he answers all questions put to him regardless of whether we agree or disagree with him. Dan has put himself in an acquired situation AGAIN and if he's willing to take the heat he has that right. One thing he doesn't need is other people using  there own ill feelings to stir up trouble on his behalf. He doesn't need that kind of help. I would think he's looking to make friends, not piss people off.
> 
> bloodwood *



Yo!  Blood!

When we disagree, we really disagree and when we agree, we really agree.  On this, we agree.  Yes, I will answer any question put to me.  Also, yes, my intention is not to go ahead and piss people off just for $h!ts and giggles.  I'm sure if the Norshadow thread hadn't been closed, some of the posts would have been moved there.

That being said, let me reiterate something I posted back on page two of this thread:

"I have no problem with Tim's or Dieter's or Kelly's or (the next one's) promotion and future promotions. NONE. Their promotions are a non-issue with me. They have all done a tremendous amount of work in their respective geographical and topic areas and recognition was given. Period."

To put out a little more info on this, _*prior to posting the information up on my website *_I personally emailed out an FYI to the following: Tim Hartman, Kelly Worden, Remy P. Presas, David Hoffman, Randi Shea, Dieter Knuettel, Bram Frank and Jerome Barber to let them know what was coming.  I think Shishir as well but I can't remember right at the moment.  You'll notice I never posted it up on MartialTalk or any other forum.  I say this because if my intention was to go ahead and yank some chains I would've done it differently.  As I can tell, there is no one way it could've been done which would have pleased everybody - even if RP came back and did it himself.  I remember some of the grousing that went on over some promotions he did.

Actually, the fascinating thing I find about this thread is not the agreement/disagreement/flaming and other-targeting going on.  It's that the person who fired the first shot, Kenpo Viking (Ingmar Johannson, I believe), has not posted since nor has he answered my personal email.

Blood, thanks for your comments and your acknowledgement that despite agreement or disagreement, we communicate.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Roland

WHY?

Why don't you just do your own thing, make your own mistakes, fix yur own problems?
Why keep the comparison going?

Seems like most of this stuff is a waste anyway, and comparing it to another all together different art, just makes any issuse all the more confusing!



:soapbox:


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## Bob Hubbard

Hmm...Kenpo....



> I've seen argument that Tim was wrong cuz his juniors pushed for the bump. Seems thats common in other arts though. Kenpo comes to mind.



Is the only mention I can find in skimming...made by me.

Now, maybe I'm just blind, but I don't see this as a slam at Kenpo.  The opposite.  With Parker dead, seems there wasn't anyone left to promote the current seniors.  I remember hearing that Huk, Trejo and a few others were encouraged to take higher ranks to keep the art growing.  My only intent was that the kenpo community had the same problem and found a successful solution.

How thats a slam, I don't know.


----------



## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> *Re: For all the people who keep mentioning Kenpo and its rank problems.WHY?
> :soapbox: *



Hey Roland,

I think it's just because 1) it has paralelled what has happened in Kenpo and 2) it's an easy comparison as Kenpo is prevalent in your neck of the woods.  If this forum was in more of a taekwondo area, the comparisons would be more ITF, ATA and so forth.  I don't think it's is meant as a direct slam to Kenpo, though.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador

The WMAA looked to Kenpo in general and the advice of Huk Planas in particular when trying to decide how to proceed. In our minds we followed the "Kenpo model" of promotion. So, when we refer to Kenpo we mean it in a good way! They had a similar problem and we looked at how they solved it.


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## loki09789

Paul,

     The FBI Profiler comment was a reaction to the Red Blade post about Tim K.  For those who don't know me, I guess I would be considered part of the "Dr Barber Camp" since I am a brother Black belt to Tim K under Jerome.

     The Norshadow business was beat to death and has been inactive for a while now.  My reason for the comment is this:

     The original 'NorShadow' stir was about who was who on the internet and what their agenda was during postings.  That line is dead and the administrators dealt with it.  

     Tim K. posted as HIMSELF and made a comparison between two promotions within MA, for what purpose let HIM explain.  We know what assuming makes us...an A... out of U and Me...

     If Red Blade, or anyone, wants to judge Tim K's character - or anyone elses for that matter - based on this internet drama, it's about as realistic as claiming to know a celebrity based on entertainment news reports.  

     If martial arts training is suppose to produce or enhance a person's nobility and grace in character as well as physical practice, let all parties rise above this kind of needling.

    When I see comments like Red Blade's it reminds me of how unproductive it is to bring up old issues during a new argument.  It shuts down any openness on the receiver's end and reveals the sender's hostile agenda.  It just keeps the fight alive for fighting's sake.

     I know I am long winded, so any responses can be sent directly to my email, let's not keep this crap going.

Paul Martin


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## Roland

...I just think the comparison has gotten boring very quickly.

It is nice to learn by the past mistakes by others, but it just seems no one is actually learning anything, seems more like making justification of current events.

I say we try to fix any problems on an idividual scale instead of passing the buck.

I have seen or heard the reference so many times now, but have not seen anyone apply this knowledge to actually helping the Modern Arnis community.

:deadhorse


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## Rocky

Why are you people getting your panties in such a bunch over what Dan does in his art/style/organization. Does it effect you, do you train under him and know find that he doesn't know what he is doing. If you don't like his way of doing things then stay away.

 Why are you people so fussy over rank when obviously Remy wasn't. Every organization out there is looking out for its own self interest first the art second!! You say I am wrong, well let me prove it, I have not once heard of an organazation or instructor ( Outside of me) say that in order to join their organization, you can not maintain the current rank you have you will have to take a reduction in rank. Now why do you think you don't here that......HHMMM could it be that most everyone would turn them down thus hurting their bottom line, maybe losing a seminar connection, now we don't want to offend anyone!!!!!!! Lets face it you get more bees with honey, tell people what they want to here!!!!! I on the other hand like the direct approach, if I think you suck, I tell you you suck!! If I think you are good I tell you, you are good. If I think you are good for what you have then I tell you that and if I think you are better then me then I will tell you that. The thing about non contact non competive arts is you have to spoon feed so many people with such fragile little egos. And because of no direct confrontation to put it out on the line people think they are better than they are!

 look at Modern Arnis's past, you have a guy who openly admits that he had 13 years of training under Remy ( which in Modern Arnis years probably translates to 1 year of actual training) yet he comes out in a magazine and claims to be the new Grandmaster of Modern Arnis. You got another guy who likes to trash me, yet he more than likely has half the actual time of training under the old man, then my top student, yet openly admits to going from blackbelt to Datu in I beleive 6 years, but is anyone trashing him, Dean Stockwell went from white belt to second drgree blackbelt in 3 weeks!!!! Look!!!! Remy didn't care about rank why should anyone else!!!!!!!!!

 Organizations are usually about business, and you have to make certain business decisions, Dan felt this was a good decision, for his group so he made it, over and done with move on!!!

 modern Arnis has always had a stigma about it that everyone wanted to be the ONE!!! I have had long time modern arnis people right here in Detroit that won't train with me and its not because I was two up front about their abilty, its just to train with me forces them to admit certain things. 

 People always ask me why did Remy teach you so differently then everyone else, even GM Buot sees a huge difference now that he has other Modern Arnis guys coming to him. Well contrary to false acusations that Kelly boy likes to type, its because I was just the oposite of many of his students I did not want rank, I new rank was meaningless my father was a catch wrestler, with no rank and use to beat hell out of so called masters every weekend that were half his age and taking private lessons from him in our basement when I was a kid, so I leraned early on rank meant nothing. What I did was force Remy into teaching me the real stuff, I would go to one of Remy's seminars in the late 70s, and tell him that Sifu Clark ( my Kali instructor at the time) or that I attended on of GM Gaji's seminars and they told me if I did this tech. (that Remy showed me ) they would do this, and I/he would lose, so then Remy would teach me a counter, then I would do the same to them next time I saw them, I did this for years, and it work, I never kissed his butt I challenged him all the time, and deep in his heart he missed that, I know becuase in not so many ways he conveyed that to GM Buot.

 So my advise is quite worring about who did what in their group or art and try learning, that which most in the Modern Arnis community have on begun to scratch the surface.


Rocky 

P.S Remember if there are any typos or mis spelled words, " I got hit alot"


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## Rocky

I am an orange belt!!!! I wanna now who the hell promoted me??? What right do they have??? What are their credentials??? 


Rocky

P.S SHHH keep this between us, but I slipped someone a $50 and  they made me an Orange belt!!! If you send me a $20 I 'll tell you who!!


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## tmanifold

I think I started the kenpo thing but I am not slamming Kenpo as an art. I easily could have said WC or Daito ryu AJJ. It is the fact that Remy didn't leave clear guidelines as to who was in charge and how people would progress in rank after he was gone. Kenpo was the same way and now you have 17 million 8th dan and above.

The other problem is it seems the Proffessor wasn't big on rank. Some of my buddies in the Bujinkan have the same problems after 5th Dan Hatsumi seems to hand out everyhting from 6th to 15 seemingly randomly. It cause's problems, the only difference is he is still alive and right now his word goes.

Tony


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## Cruentus

*Paul Martin:* Thanks for the reply...that clears things up.

*Rocky:* A couple of responses regarding your post, if you don't mind...



> Does it effect you, do you train under him and know find that he doesn't know what he is doing. If you don't like his way of doing things then stay away.



I both agree and disagree. I feel that whenever ANYONE makes a decision regarding Modern Arnis, that it effects us all whether we like it or not. We are all one big disfunctional family, like it or not.

However, I agree that if you don't like Dan's way, or anyone's way for that matter, you don't have to go train with them.



> Why are you people so fussy over rank when obviously Remy wasn't



A-Friggin'-men!! I agree that people are way too fussy about rank. I think that people are guilty of this accross the board, from the low ranks to the very high. I think that some people object to some of the high rank promotions because they feel that these "high ranks" are the ones being fussy about rank, feeling the need to "race" to the top. There may be some validity with these objections, depending on who we are refering too and the situation behind it.



> I have not once heard of an organazation or instructor ( Outside of me) say that in order to join their organization, you can not maintain the current rank you have you will have to take a reduction in rank. Now why do you think you don't here that



I have an answer for you; they are honoring Professors rank. Frankly, I agree with this. Shouldn't we honor the rank someone recieved by Professor, the founder of the system, regardless of "why" they recieved their rank? I think we should...it shows loyalty to Remy Presas, and what's wrong with that?

In fact, I think that at times it is more self-serving to for an organization to consider a rank "invalid" after a period of time, because then the student will have to "retest" and pay "$$" to have your rank renewed.

Both IMAF's figured this one out. If you have not been active in their org. for a period of time, they consider your rank invalid. I am not so sure if demotions are involved with the IMAF's, though.

Please, don't regard my comments as a slam on you or the IMAF's; both you and those orgs. have their reasons for there rank policies which may not be completely self-serving to their group.

I am just making the point that I don't see how an Organization honoring Remy's rank is "self-serving," and if anything I think that the opposite arguement can be more easily made.



> So my advise is quite worring about who did what in their group or art and try learning



I agree! Learning is Fundamentals...(then learning is "meat and potatoes," and then it is "Cuentada's") LOL....Balintawak humor  :rofl:



> Remember if there are any typos or mis spelled words, " I got hit alot"


 LOL  

Later,

PAUL


----------



## Rocky

Just sitting here at work, trying to figure out  what pile of paper work to attack next, or if I should just say Puck it, and go swimming. 

So anyways:



> In fact, I think that at times it is more self-serving to for an organization to consider a rank "invalid" after a period of time, because then the student will have to "retest" and pay "$$" to have your rank renewed.




True dat true dat!!! This is why I don't charge for testing hell I rarely charge for teaching half the time.

 Along time ago Remy told me to do two things, 1st learn to be a good businessman, 2nd learn Eskrima, I did both! I choose to do something other than just martial arts for business, this way I can teach my way, not, the way of oh I better make people happy so I can make my rent. For those that teach as a living more power to them I wish them the best of luck. But I just want good students, to me it is more important that my 14 balckbelts under me pretty much walk all over so called masters. Thats what makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside  I have been putting presure on a building owner down the street that is about to lose his building, to sell to me. When he does, and he will, I'll make him an offer he can't refuse  I will start teaching again, the building will be bought and paid for my over head will be low, and I will be able to teach my way. I call my method Buotism, get it!!! I want small groups the kick butt not big groups that kiss butt. As a loyal Buotist I perfer the quality I get from one on one or very small groups.

 As for my rank I'll just stay 5th degree in Modern Arnis forever. I have self promoted my self in the past though, just check out my new title below.

Rocky Pasiwk
"All knowing orical of wisdom" Supream leader of anyone willing to follow. Legend in my own mind, all hail me!!!


----------



## DoxN4cer

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> *There have been some very good points brought up on this thread except for obvious bias of Tim K towards Tim Hartman. Tim K is a DrB affiliate and after the nonsense at the symposium, any comments directed at Tim Hartman by the DrB camp should be considered antagonistic in nature. So far this has been a good exchange, so lets look at the FACTS carefully.  *



Bloodwood, 
     I have no bias toward Tim Hartman. I'm drawing comparisons between the two promotions. That's all.  As for my affiliations; I have none. I am my own man. I am not Jerome Barber's or anyone else's lackey.  Whose lackey are you? You can keep your suppositions on my motives. If you have any question as to my character, I suggest that you meet me in person.  
    The bottom line in my last post is this: a promotion from a council of GMs carries more weight than a promotion form a board of juniors, whether the promotion was solicited or not.  the WMAA is Tim's gig, and he can do what he wants to with it. MA-80 is Dan's gig and he too can do what he wishes with it. I would have recommended that Tim persue some kind of arrangement with the WSHC, MARPPIO, or IMAF, Phil. It may have been better received by the martial arts community.  


Below is an e-mail from Dr. Barber since he has been banned I thought it appropriate to share here.  

Tim Kashino



   Dear Dan and Tim,

I have read with some mild interest and amusement the postings on MTC regarding the promotion to 8th dan.  Please indicate to the fellows at the MTC, that I have no interest in the discussion and using my name is unnecessary.  I support the efforts of Dan Anderson to promote his MA-80 and Tim Hartman's efforts with the WMAA.  Any personal differences can be discussed outside of the MTC arena.  Since I am not a member of either organization, what decisions they arrive at are their own.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## DoxN4cer

> _Originally posted by Red Blade _
> *Tim K.
> 
> Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? After all you were involved with the Norshadow scam. It seems that you might have an axe to grind with him.
> 
> 
> *




This comment comes from a "man" that posts without his real name... hmmm. Who's calling whom what?

Tim Kashino


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## DoxN4cer

Let me break it down for you, Paul.  

Suppose you are a private in the Army. Each time you receive a promotion the authority that is promoting you is above your present level. A bunch of corporals don't hold a board to promote a sergeant to lieutenant. 

CEOs don't become CEOs because their staff votes them into that position.  They are voted into that position by people who are their peers and superiors (VPs and senior VPs).  

All I'm saying is that there was a better way for the WMAA to go  about promoting Tim. That's all.

I beleive that you are a little left of center in your view of the WSHC. The are there to recognize the accomplishments of pettitioners and to award rank, title etc., to people who meet their stingent criteria.

That's all you're getting out of me.  Later.

Tim Kashino


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *Suppose you are a private in the Army. Each time you receive a promotion the authority that is promoting you is above your present level. A bunch of corporals don't hold a board to promote a sergeant to lieutenant. *



That wouldn't be a promotion per se--one doesn't get "promoted" from sergeant to 2nd Lieutenant. But in any event, what happens when you get to the top? Who appoints the CINC (president)?

People "below" him. _That's_ the problem--Mr. Hartman was at the top of the WMAA. This is hardly without precedent in either the business world or the martial arts. While he could have gone to higher ranked individuals in the Phil.--a fine idea--they were practicing a different form of Modern Arnis. Mr. Hartman was promoted by an organization--similar to the Board of Directors idea--with the approval of two Grandmasters who outranked him.



> *
> I beleive that you are a little left of center in your view of the WSHC. The are there to recognize the accomplishments of pettitioners and to award rank, title etc., to people who meet their stingent criteria.*



These criteria are evaluated entirely on paper, if I'm not mistaken?


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *
> . . .
> 
> Below is an e-mail from Dr. Barber since he has been banned I thought it appropriate to share here.
> 
> Tim Kashino
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Dan and Tim,
> 
> I have read with some mild interest and amusement the postings on MTC regarding the promotion to 8th dan.  Please indicate to the fellows at the MTC, that I have no interest in the discussion and using my name is unnecessary.  I support the efforts of Dan Anderson to promote his MA-80 and Tim Hartman's efforts with the WMAA.  Any personal differences can be discussed outside of the MTC arena.  Since I am not a member of either organization, what decisions they arrive at are their own.
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D. *



Tim,

Thank You for your reply.

I do have to correct one little thing.

Jerome Barber Ed D. is not Banned, his account is suspended. This means that eh is more than welcme to come back when the suspention is over. A Ban would mean he is gone and is not welcome back.

It usually is not allowed for a suspened member or banned member to have someone post for them.

Yet, it has happened before and will happen again. And in this case when it is to clarify something, in particular the use of their name it is allowed with no recourse.

*
Rich Parsons
MT Moderator
*


----------



## DoxN4cer

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *That wouldn't be a promotion per se--one doesn't get "promoted" from sergeant to 2nd Lieutenant. But in any event, what happens when you get to the top? Who appoints the CINC (president)?
> 
> People "below" him. That's the problem--Mr. Hartman was at the top of the WMAA. This is hardly without precedent in either the business world or the martial arts. While he could have gone to higher ranked individuals in the Phil.--a fine idea--they were practicing a different form of Modern Arnis. Mr. Hartman was promoted by an organization--similar to the Board of Directors idea--with the approval of two Grandmasters who outranked him.
> 
> 
> 
> These criteria are evaluated entirely on paper, if I'm not mistaken? *



 You're trifling over semantics in terms of my military analogy, Jeff.

The electoral college; not the popular vote, appoints the president. I'm sure that you are familiar with that. Component commanders (general officers) are recommended by the president and are approved by Congress after review. However, comparing martial arts politics to the American government doesn't work. There is a system of checks and balances in the layout our government that doesn't exsist in the martial arts politcal arena.    

True, such promotions are not without precident. I'll conceed that point, but going over the Falls in a barrel and surviving isn't without precident either. 

You guys did what you felt you had to do. Fine. Were you surprised that people disagreed with it?  You shouldn't be. Other options were available, weren't they? Was there a big rush for the promotion? Was there a big number candidates for 6th dgree that the WMAA couldn't wait for further deliberation? 

As for the WSHC (and the perhaps the GOE) rankning and recognition procedures go, my knowledge is not first hand; just word of mouth and what I have read. However, candidates must provide documentation of  their continuous training and teaching experience (via certificates and resume), letters of reference, and undergo an evaluation  by a board of masters, senior masters, and/or GMs.   

Thanks for the input, Jeff.

Tim Kashino


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## Mathusula2

I don't seem to understand this... Tim is promoted by an organizational board, with 2 GM's signatures, while Dan promoted himself while 4 GM's endorsed him based on information that isn't entirely correct... how can one argue that Tim's promotion is more "shadey" than Dan's?

The WSHC award Dan refered to in his petition for rank was given last year in September as recognition that he founded MA-80... it is NOT a recognition of Dan's promotion.

It just seemed that that discussion missed some very valid points.

P.S.  _It's nice to hear from a *SUSPENDED* member of Martialtalk._ :btg:


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## bloodwood

You posted this after the symposium.



> At this time I wish to announce that I am no longer affiliated with Dr. Barber and his crew in WNY, at least for now. It is unclear to me at this point if I can ever faithfully lend my support to that circle of people again. I still consider Dr. Barber my friend of over 15 years, and an outstanding instructor of martial arts. However, considerng the events that had come to light in Buffalo I feel it is both prudent and necessary to remove myself from that group in and continue on my own path.



If you had a change of heart, that's fine, if not, I'm a little confused as to your posting DrB's words here on MT, especially since he is in suspension.

bloodwood


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## Tgace

Wow! Im amazed that anybody really cares about this stuff...besides political/personal affiliations what is the bug hub-bub? And dont give me "system integrity", "coming together as FMA family", "honesty in promotions" yadda yadda..this system wasnt founded on it, wasnt propagated with it and will probably never have it. These "Clans" are fighting it out (albeit with words) just like the founding FMA groups always have and thats fine, hell were talking about "fighting" here at the root anyway.


----------



## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by Mathusula2 _
> *1 - I don't seem to understand this... Tim is promoted by an organizational board, with 2 GM's signatures, while Dan promoted himself while
> 
> 2 - 4 GM's endorsed him based on information that isn't entirely correct... how can one argue that Tim's promotion is more "shadey" than Dan's?
> 
> 3 - The WSHC award Dan refered to in his petition for rank was given last year in September as recognition that he founded MA-80... it is NOT a recognition of Dan's promotion.
> 
> It just seemed that that discussion missed some very valid points.
> 
> P.S.  It's nice to hear from a SUSPENDED member of Martialtalk. :btg: *



Mike,

Please re-read this section of the petition:

*Promotional data

- I am the longest continuously training American student of Remy Presas 
- Ranked 6th Degree Black Belt by the founder Remy Presas in 1992 
- Awarded Founder of the Year 2002 by the World Soke Head Of Family Councilship 
- I have written 2 books on Modern Arnis: De-Fanging The Snake: A Guide To Modern Arnis Disarms and Advanced Modern Arnis: A Road To Mastery 
- I have demonstrated my art at the 2002 by the World Soke Head Of Family Councilship demonstrations 
- I have taught Modern Arnis 80 at both The First Filipino Martial Arts Gathering in San Francisco in 2002 and The Modern Arnis International Symposium July 2003 
- I ran the Pacific Northwest Modern Arnis Summer Camp for 9 years. 
These are just the key accomplishments.

Promotion request
I am asking for 2 official recognitions:

- as Founder of Modern Arnis 80 (as distinguished from Remy Presas' Modern Arnis) with the Filipino term of Puno ("Puno literally means leader which shows how you are planting your seeds." Bong Jornales, Arnis Sikaran) 
- a numerical ranking value of 8th Degree Black Belt.*

1 - It was a petition (dictionary definition:_an appeal or reuqest to a higher authority or being, something requested or appealed for -_ Microsoft Encarta Dictionary page 1349) which had a request (dictionary definition:_ an act of politely or formally asking that something be done or given -_ Microsoft Encarta Dictionary page 1524).  It was not a self-promotion.  I would have had to come out and state that I am an 8th Degree Black Belt in Modern Arnis 80 first and then ask for recognition.

Additionally, per definition, a petition is something which can be denied as easily as it can be granted.

2 - I was wrong as to being the longest continuously training American student of Remy Presas.  Rich Parsons corrected/reminded me of the fact that Jim Power predates me.  There could be others who I still don't know.  That was presumptious of me to state that and I have apologized publicly to Jim Power in another thread. 

Now Mike, would you care to educate me where else I was dishonest?  Also, I'm afraid that I don't know you so could you tell me where you are getting this information from?

3 - That is entirely correct.  If you go to the World Soke Head Of Family Councilship website, they state that they don't award ranks.  It might have been misinterpreted by others that they recognized the 8th Degree.  The World Soke Head Of Family Councilship awarded me Founder Of The Year for founding Modern Arnis 80.  I have never stated anything other than that.

The comparing Tim's promotion to my promotion is an issue _I never brought up._  Why?  Because it is a non-issue.  His accomplishments are what they are and are not disputed by me at all.  They never have been.  

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *You guys did what you felt you had to do. Fine. Were you surprised that people disagreed with it?  You shouldn't be. Other options were available, weren't they? Was there a big rush for the promotion? Was there a big number candidates for 6th dgree that the WMAA couldn't wait for further deliberation? *



No surprise about disagreements. Other options were considered and we did what we thought was best, and what seemed like the best precedent (from Kenpo). I don't see how whether or not there was a rush, or other candidates, figures in--the problem wasn't going away. We deliberated at length and consulted with outside experts (e.g. Mr. Planas).

As to semantics, my real point is that I don't think the discussion of military promotions you initiated is relevant. It's a different beast.



> *Thanks for the input, Jeff.*



We have no beef with Mr. Anderson and I certainly have none with you. Different people will approach this problem in different ways. Frankly, I think that Mr. Anderson and the WMAA approached it in very similar ways, down to an overlap of signatories.

The WMAA wishes Mr. Anderson good luck. In addition, we understand that some people will question Mr. Hartman's promotion and that is fine. It's no surprise that those who are members of a discussion web board will discuss minor details of these actions in great depth--that's the case with such boards--but it doesn't change anything at the big level.


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## Dan Anderson

Wow!  I have just been banned from the WMAC Forum for two months for the petition.  I am truly stunned.  Forums, unless I don't understand correctly, are for the discussion of topics whether agreemdent is reached or not.  See http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?p=79301#79301 for the data.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## bloodwood

An organization should be able to exist without forums. It exists on the strength of it's members and the comittment of it's staff and instructors. I guess Kelly is saying, time to walk the walk. 
Good luck Dan as you start you new journey.

bloodwood


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## Datu Tim Hartman

My opinion is easy to understand. If you dont like what Dan is doing, dont train with him. This goes for everyone. The IMAF didnt work for me after Remy retired so I left. Each Modern Arnis group will service the needs for its members DIFFERENTLY. This does not mean one is better than an other. This does mean that a particular group may be better for YOU.

That being said, I wish people would stop trying to make this a Tim vs. Dan thread. Dan and I are on two separate paths, this does not make us enemies. I wished him luck and I meant it. Friends dont have to agree on everything.
:asian:


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## Dan Anderson

Blood,

Thank you for the well wishing.  I did this journey once before back in 1977 with the formation of American Freestyle Karate.  Time to go back to the attic to find my "travellin' shoes."

Guys, Tim is correct.  you think we don't see eye to eye now, you should have been there in John Bryant's office back in 1986(?).  That's now a beer story between Tim and I.  Tim and I are on separate paths and that's cool.  Tim, thanks for the well wishing as well.  All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *As for the WSHC (and the perhaps the GOE) rankning and recognition procedures go, my knowledge is not first hand; just word of mouth and what I have read. However, candidates must provide documentation of  their continuous training and teaching experience (via certificates and resume), letters of reference, and undergo an evaluation  by a board of masters, senior masters, and/or GMs.   *



Like you said, your knowledge is second hand and incorrect. As someone who has been inducted into 3 different Halls of Fame (including WSHC) it is highly over rated. I enjoyed the events and met some great people, but its not what everyone thinks it is.


----------



## DoxN4cer

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *Like you said, your knowledge is second hand and incorrect. As someone who has been inducted into 3 different Halls of Fame (including WSHC) it is highly over rated. I enjoyed the events and met some great people, but its not what everyone thinks it is. *



Nobody is trying to make this a "Dan vs. Tim" thing.  The thead sure did start out like a "Dan-bashing", and if I recall correctly Ingmar Johanssen (kenpo viking) is affliated in some way with the WMAA. He's the European Administrative Director. Correct? I realize that Jeff Leader is the only authorized peron to make official statements for the WMAA, one might make the supposition that his statement that started this thread may have been an "unofficial statement" from the WMAA. Paul Janulis' (an Advisory Board Member) comments might even be misconstrued into supporting that theory. However, Tim and Jeff have both offered their best wishes on a personal and official (WMAA) level. That's good enough for me.  Anyone seeing a connection there would be incorrect. 

I know what you mean, Tim. I saw some video of some of the presentations. Some (like Mr. Hummerstone, Dan Anderson and Ray Dionaldo to name but a few) were truly outstanding. Several others were just lame.

Please elaborate on my error, and I would also be interested in hearing about what other options you might have had and why you had chosen that particular route. I'm not trying to pick at you, Tim. I'm genuinely interested. Hell, who know's, I might be in a similar situation one day down the road.   

Halls of Fame: there were some interesting conversations on induction into various martial arts halls of fame on the WMAC some time ago.  Over rated seems to be an understatement.

As for Dan's promotions through the WHSC, being recognized  as a master/founder/GM by an council of other senior masters, GMs, Sokes etc., is a great accomplishment in itself regardless of who takes acception to it.  Dan's reputation precedes him, as does yours for you.  

Respectfully,

Tim Kashino


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *Please elaborate on my error, and I would also be interested in hearing about what other options you might have had and why you had chosen that particular route. *



The error I was refering to was about the proceder of getting into halls of fame. I was not refering to rank promotions.


----------



## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> You're trifling over semantics in terms of my military analogy, Jeff.
> 
> The electoral college; not the popular vote, appoints the president. I'm sure that you are familiar with that. Component commanders (general officers) are recommended by the president and are approved by Congress after review. However, comparing martial arts politics to the American government doesn't work. There is a system of checks and balances in the layout our government that doesn't exsist in the martial arts politcal arena.



I agree that the the example of the President doesn't work. However, you are the one who used the example to make your point, whether you realized it or not. Your main example was a military one, where the President is Commander and Chief, technically "the highest ranked." Tim is technically the "Commander and Chief" of the WMAA. 6th degree is the highest rank given in the U.S. for Modern Arnis. The electoral college votes according to the popular vote in their state, so our "Commander and Chief" is voted in by "lower ranks" any way you look at it.

However, I agree that the example, your example, doesn't fit. I would also conceed that the CEO example doesn't fit either. There are checks and balances in Business as well as in government. However, a CEO is "elected" in most big companies by a board of directors. The board is often "elected" through proxy by shareholders.

Because we are a democracy and not nationalist or monarchy, our structure for almost anything in America is that "leaders" and even "rank" and "status" for our chosen leaders are elected by the people below them. This is the American way. As a military man I would surely hope that you would support democracy, and the american way.

However, I agree that you will be hard pressed to find an example outside of the martial arts "world" that fits the current situation of Modern Arnis.

But this means that your examples don't fit either, and that you have failed to logically prove how Tim's promotion was "shady."




> True, such promotions are not without precident. I'll conceed that point, but going over the Falls in a barrel and surviving isn't without precident either.



There you go again. Don't use examples that you can't back up. Tim's promotion hardly compares to "going over falls in a barrel."



> You guys did what you felt you had to do. Fine.


Gee...thanks. 



> Were you surprised that people disagreed with it?  You shouldn't be.


Actually, there hasn't been much disagreement at all. Your the only one who seems to disagree right now, even though you've failed to prove how the promotion was "shady."



> Other options were available, weren't they?



But none of these other options were "better" then what was done. These other options also didn't fit the circumstance. Our leaders have done what they needed to do according to their individual circumstance. 



> Was there a big rush for the promotion? Was there a big number candidates for 6th dgree that the WMAA couldn't wait for further deliberation?



As Mr. Leader explained, the problem needed to be addressed before it got to a point were we had a canidate for 6th, or 5th. And actually, 5th would be the magic # because a 6th can't promote to his own rank.

Besides, there wasn't a rush. Professors body was long buried before Tim's promotion. 



> As for the WSHC (and the perhaps the GOE) rankning and recognition procedures go, my knowledge is not first hand; just word of mouth and what I have read. However, candidates must provide documentation of  their continuous training and teaching experience (via certificates and resume), letters of reference, and undergo an evaluation  by a board of masters, senior masters, and/or GMs.



My knowledge is first-hand. I was supposed to go to the event where Tim and Dan recieved their awards. So, re-read my explaination, for it is from a 1st hand understanding of their proceedures.

Also, even if the WSHC was there to verify rank, as Mathusula2 rightfully pointed out the award was recieved BEFORE the promotion.

So this point is also mute.

*Bottom Line:* Tim's promotion was far from "SHADY," and you have failed to prove otherwise. 

Thank You,

PAUL
:armed:

P.S. I have no beef with you TIm K, by the way....I just disagree with you as much as I happend to like a good arguement.


----------



## Cruentus

> Please elaborate on my error, and I would also be interested in hearing about what other options you might have had and why you had chosen that particular route. I'm not trying to pick at you, Tim. I'm genuinely interested. Was there a time frame you wanted to meet?



Now, questions are good. A lot better then just believing that the promotion was "shady". Maybe we'll all come to some sort of understanding before this thread is up.

I will let someone answer your question....that's all for today...

:asian:


----------



## DoxN4cer

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *The error I was refering to was about the proceder of getting into halls of fame. I was not refering to rank promotions. *



I wasn't refering to induction into a hall of fame. I was refering to promotions. Am I still in error?

Tim


----------



## Mathusula2

> 2 - I was wrong as to being the longest continuously training American student of Remy Presas. Rich Parsons corrected/reminded me of the fact that Jim Power predates me. There could be others who I still don't know. That was presumptious of me to state that and I have apologized publicly to Jim Power in another thread.



Dan, this was the piece of information that I was refering to... If it was in your petition and unknown to those who endorsed the promotion, then my statement was accurate -- but you did admit to this.  My post was not meant to be an attack toward you personally, it was more a reply to those who have turned this thread into a Tim vs. Dan and implied that Tim's promotion was "shady" while yours was not.  The reality of the 2 promotions falls to 2 differences:
1. Who wrote the petition (you for yourself and the board for Tim.)
2. What rank you petitioned for.
IMHO these are details; the fundamental way the promotion was finalized (through endorsement of GMs) is the same.  I guess that was my longwinded point of this past paragraph:  As much as people want to create this drama behind the 2 promotions, in my eyes they are basically the same.



> would you care to educate me where else I was dishonest?



You weren't dishonest, and I never said you were. I said the "information wasn't entirely correct" as you had admitted to.

As for the WSHC, I was correcting DoxN4cer, not meaning to attack you.



> The comparing Tim's promotion to my promotion is an issue I never brought up. Why? Because it is a non-issue. His accomplishments are what they are and are not disputed by me at all. They never have been.



I know.  I never said anything otherwise, and if I implied anything to this sort, I am sorry.  Again, my post was aimed at those making this an issue, and taking shots at Tim Hartman in the process.

Also, best of luck on your future endeavors with MA-80.

With respect,

:asian:


P.S.  I _did_ take a blatent shot at a certain individual... :btg:


----------



## Dan Anderson

Michael,

Thank you for the clarification.  As emotionally toasty as this thread is, you really have to watch exactly what you post.  As you can tell, it shifts quickly in meaning and context.

Ingmar,
Why no reply to my email?

Hey, we're up to page 6 already.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *Ingmar,
> Why no reply to my email?
> 
> Hey, we're up to page 6 already.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson *



For the record, Ingmar only posts while he visit's the states.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *I wasn't refering to induction into a hall of fame. I was refering to promotions. Am I still in error?
> 
> Tim *



As I said, your intel on the Hall of Fame was incorrect. I was not commenting on Dan's promotion.:asian:


----------



## DoxN4cer

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *As I said, your intel on the Hall of Fame was incorrect. I was not commenting on Dan's promotion.:asian: *




Safe answer.


----------



## DoxN4cer

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *For the record, Ingmar only posts while he visit's the states. *



Does that mean he was in the US training with you around the time he started this thread? 

r/
Tim


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *Does that mean he was in the US training with you around the time he started this thread?
> 
> r/
> Tim *



Yes


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## DoxN4cer

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *Yes *



How did he come to find out about Dan's promotion? Did you know about his feelings about the matter? Did you discourage him from or encourage him to address his fellings on the forum? I mean really, Tim. It seems to be contrary to the official statements made by you both personally and on behalf of the WMAA.  Should we shift this to private e-mail?

r/ 
Tim


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## Mark Lynn

Dan

Been reading this thread over the last couple of days and I meant to post earlier but figured while I was answering a couple of other threads I'd check this one, wow up to 6 pages is right.

Anyway one of the reasons I went to the symposium was to attend your sessions and they were very good.  For the record Dan has been instructing in the martial arts for a long time and he is a very good communicater and teacher and a credit to his teacher GM Remy.  After attending seminars with some of the top ranked instructors in the FMA over the years Dan ranked right up there for his teaching ability probably due in part at least to his background in the Martial arts prior to his exposure to GM Remy and his continued teaching of both systems (his and Remy's).  Plus writing his books on MA and establishing his own system.

This is more than a lot of people have done, other people might have more skill (how do I know), or more time with GM Remy.  But hey Dan can at least pass on the art and hopefully keep the art alive in his system of MA 80.

In reading Dan's books he has at least tried to make the art something that is different (principles being taught) than how it is usually taught.  Take a look at GM Remy's book and many people teach that way as in this technique or that technique not getting into the principles behind the techniques.  Dan has gone further than that in his books.  His teaching at the symposium was the same and that to me shows that he knows what he is teaching MA 80 or whatever.

Whatever Dan's rank is really doesn't matter to those outside of his system.  Paul brought up that it does affect everyone (if I'm wrong here Paul I apologize) but I beg to differ.  His rank doesn't effect everyone.  However his teaching and his skill will, if he knows his material (and I believe he does) then he will help build the art of Modern Arnis.  And that is what really counts here right.

Dang it another long post. 

With respect
Mark


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## Datu Tim Hartman

This was posted on MT.com a while ago:



> * The OFFICIAL opinion of the WMAA on Mr. Andersons MA-80 is as follows: Our members have the right to freedom of speech and self-expression. As long as Mr. Andersons actions do not break any laws, endanger peoples safety or reflect negatively on the WMAA, we do not feel there is a problem. Mr. Andersons actions only reflect upon himself. This is sole the opinion of the administrative team of our organization and does not reflect the personal opinions of our members.
> 
> Datu Tim Hartman
> World Modern Arnis Alliance *



If this applies to one of my members, it applies to all of them. :asian:


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## tmanifold

Lets look at this logically and you will see that Dan did a pretty good job of this.
 Example 1:
Dan has a 6th dan in Modern Arnis awarded by the Prof.
Dan is a 7th dan in American Freestyle Karate
As a founder of an art it is reasonable that he have a rank higher than he has in arts of which he is a student.
Therefore 8th degree is the logical number.

Example 2:
Dan founded his own art
Because it is not "Modern arnis" any rank given by a "Modern Arnis" organization is not relevent nor needed.

Example 3.
Dan decided he needed to validate his new rank.
Dan doesn't see dead people so he can't ask Remy personally.
Validation could have come from 2 sources Remy's Students ie his Subordinates or from Remy's peers and friends who also are "GMs" ie his equals.
The choice is obvious.

I think the problem here is that people are jealous at Dan's percieved "new 8th degree blackbelt in Modern arnis". It seems to me he doesn't have a "new 8th degree black belt in modern arnis".


----------



## tmanifold

Just realized Dan founded America Freestyle. Disregard that part.

Tony


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## Red Blade

From Mr. Anderson's site:



> Lakan-Pito (7th Dan) to Lakan-Sampu (10th Dan) will be awarded after every 3 years of continuous study of the art. According to this, his first book written in English, I could be eligible for rank as high as 9th Dan (1992-2003 = years. Every three years would have made me eligible in 2001.)



Mr. Anderson, I'm curious about something. I can understand why you would use this formula to base your rank promotions after the passing of GM Presas. Wouldnt this make you a 7th dan in 2004? You can't count the years that GM Presas was alive. The reasons why I say this is that if he wanted you to have a higher ranked belt wouldn't he have promoted you between 92-01? If you use this formula from the time of his passing you would be eligible in 2004 for 7th dan.


----------



## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by Red Blade _
> *1 - Mr. Anderson, I'm curious about something. I can understand why you would use this formula to base your rank promotions after the passing of GM Presas. Wouldnt this make you a 7th dan in 2004?
> 2 - You can't count the years that GM Presas was alive. The reasons why I say this is that if he wanted you to have a higher ranked belt wouldn't he have promoted you between 92-01? If you use this formula from the time of his passing you would be eligible in 2004 for 7th dan.
> 
> *



Dear Red,

1 - I based the time on when I was promoted, not beginning when he passed away.  If I based it on when he died, your math would be correct.  
2 - A number of us seniors _didn't_ pester Prof. Presas about rank when he was alive nor did he ever really follow any kind of predictable promotion pattern (as far as I can see, anyway).  As to whether I can count the years he was alive, I do as I was continuously training during those years.   Also, the GM's endorsing the petition either saw it the way I did or saw it your way and looked at other qualifications as well.  I don't know so I can't say which.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## loki09789

Dan went to a review board of his seniors - including Wally Jay, a close friend and seminar tourist with Remy - and asked if they thought that he had done enough to be recongized as an 8th degree and head of his own curriculum.

How is that different from a college student applying for graduate, or Submitting a job resume?  Since when is it bad to be a go getter, to pursue a goal.  Dan HAD demonstrated his skill to these members as well as the list of accomplishments that included being published twice.  In scholarly circles, publication is the key to success.  Even there the members who create a college degree program haven't taken all of those classes and may not be experts in the specific discipline that the applicant is seeking his degree in, BUT they do understand the CONCEPT (a favorite REMY word) of what needs to be accomplished.

BESIDES, didn't Remy and every other FMA GM tell us to take a technique/concept... what ever and practice it, figure out a counter to it, and then make it our own.  On a conceptual level, hasn't Dan done just that by examining the entire system, absorbing it, and finding a way that he can organize and teach it so that his students will benefit?

I really don't see the big stir.  

Paul Martin


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *I realize that Jeff Leader is the only authorized peron to make official statements for the WMAA, one might make the supposition that his statement that started this thread may have been an "unofficial statement" from the WMAA.  *



I try to be clear as to when I'm speaking officially, be it under my WMAA hat or under my MartialTalk Admin. hat. In both cases I "sign" official pronouncements. Much of the time I'm just posting my own thoughts. If there's ever any doubt in anyone's mind, please ask!

For clarity, I should state I speak on behalf of the Board of Advisors of the WMAA; of course Mr. Hartman can speak for the WMAA itself.


----------



## bloodwood

> 2 - A number of us seniors didn't pester Prof. Presas about rank when he was alive nor did he ever really follow any kind of predictable promotion pattern (as far as I can see, anyway).



Professor may not have had any set order to promoting upper belts or know the dates when they all were last promoted but he did know who they all were. From 5th on, they were exactly where he wanted them. The promotion ladder that was issued in the pink book, as well as the belts used (white, brown and black only) were different than what Professor used after he came to the US. So using that scale because it is the only one in print is not valid as it is OUTDATED. Not in print but by Professor's actions.
He no longer used that scale. If you were an upper belt and weren't getting promoted, He had a reason. Let no one say" I should have been."
If you left the system you stopped getting promoted, as in the case of Kelly Worden. Tim Hartman stayed in the system and tested every 3 years up to 6th. If Professor where alive there is no reason to believe he would not have tested for his 7th. I use Tim as an example because there is a pattern there. For some, Professor had them on a track to the future and others were left on the tracks. Why that is, none of us will ever know. We just live with the choices he made while he was running the show.

bloodwood


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *I really don't see the big stir.  *



I've been reading this thread since the beginning of it. All I can say is I have a lot more things to worry about in life than if Mr. Anderson was promoted to 8th or not. _(sorry for sounding rude)_  If he is an excellent teacher, student, instructor and can prove to others that he is established at this rank then who would I be to say he shouldn't be?:asian:  All I have heard so far is that he is a good guy and can be up his stuff. That's enough for me.

Mr. Anderson,
Congratulations Sir.:asian:


----------



## Tgace

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I've been reading this thread since the beginning of it. All I can say is I have a lot more things to worry about in life than if Mr. Anderson was promoted to 8th or not. (sorry for sounding rude)  If he is an excellent teacher, student, instructor and can prove to others that he is established at this rank then who would I be to say he shouldn't be?:asian:  All I have heard so far is that he is a good guy and can be up his stuff. That's enough for me.
> 
> Mr. Anderson,
> Congratulations Sir.:asian: *




Amen! All this blather seems like pointless @!$k measuring to me.


----------



## Red Blade

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *I ran the Pacific Northwest Modern Arnis Summer Camp for 9 years. *



Could you tell us more about this?


----------



## Dan Anderson

Folks,

A lot of this bickering seems to revolve around the number 8.  Let me tell you something you already know and something maybe you don't.  This is how I view it.

Under Remy Presas there were several 6th degree black belts in the US.  Some of us have been promoted by others now the founded is not with us.  To me each of us have two ranks:
Remy Presas-------------Respective organization
Tim Hartman 6th---------WMAA 7th
Kelly Worden 6th---------MARPPIO 7th
Dieter Knuettel 6th-------IMAF Philippines 7th
Dan Anderson 6th--------MA 80 8th

These guys are my peers.  I am not senior to them nor are they senior to me.  Why?  We were all the same numerical rank under the founder.  In our own respective organizations we are of different ranks.  As I told Kelly in his forum, "My branch, my school."  Pure and simple.


----------



## jfarnsworth

A person should be promoted upon certain criteria.

Time spent at the art.
Knowledge of the art.
Teaching the art.
Going to seminars to learn from others about the art.
Going to seminars teaching the art.
Passing on knowledge to students about the art.
Proficiency of the students studying the art.
Innovating new techniques and strategies about the art.
Students thinking for themselves understanding what they have learned about the art. 

These are just a few off of the top of my head.:asian:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *A person should be promoted upon certain criteria.
> 
> Time spent at the art.
> Knowledge of the art.
> Teaching the art.
> Going to seminars to learn from others about the art.
> Going to seminars teaching the art.
> Passing on knowledge to students about the art.
> Proficiency of the students studying the art.
> Innovating new techniques and strategies about the art.
> Students thinking for themselves understanding what they have learned about the art.
> 
> These are just a few off of the top of my head.:asian: *



Agreed!:asian:


----------



## Rocky

Dan,

 Your example of each person having rank in both Remy's art and their perspective organization, should end any and all arguments on this subject!! It is perfect! And the inner workings of your org. or Tims, or anyones elses, is really of no business to outsiders. 




Bottom line is, you are passing on your knowledge to future generations, therefore in one way or another the art lives on!!


Rocky


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *Bottom line is, you are passing on your knowledge to future generations, therefore in one way or another the art lives on!!*



Hear, hear!


----------



## Dan Anderson

Jeff and Rocky,

_A person should be promoted upon certain criteria.

Time spent at the art.
Knowledge of the art.
Teaching the art.
Going to seminars to learn from others about the art.
Going to seminars teaching the art.
Passing on knowledge to students about the art.
Proficiency of the students studying the art.
Innovating new techniques and strategies about the art.
Students thinking for themselves understanding what they have learned about the art. 

These are just a few off of the top of my head."_

Beautifully stated, Jeff.  :asian: 

_"Bottom line is, you are passing on your knowledge to future generations, therefore in one way or another the art lives on!!"_

As *we all* are, Rock.  You, me, Tim, Kelly, Dieter, Randi, Shishir and the rest.  As we all are.  :asian: 

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - It looks like we won't hit 8 pages after all.  Fine by me.


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *
> Beautifully stated, Jeff.  :asian:
> *




Dan,

I believe it was Jason Farnsworth who made the original post with those comments.

Tim, and Jeff,  both agreed.



:asian:


----------



## Dan Anderson

Jeff, Jason....Geez, what a way to close this thread out.  Let me try again:

JASON.  BEAUTIFULLY STATED! 

There.  That should correct it.   

Yours,
The Ever Contorversial Yet Wonderfully Mannered Dan Anderson


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *Jeff, Jason....Geez, what a way to close this thread out.  Let me try again:
> 
> JASON.  BEAUTIFULLY STATED! *



:rofl: :rofl: 
Oh, that's ok Sir. I knew what you meant when I read it the first time. I've been called a lot worse than Jeff before so I didn't bother.


----------



## arnisador

It looks from his avatar that Mr. Farnsworth is better looking than me so I wasn't going to object to the confusion!

But in all seriousness, I worry that Modern Arnis will be absorbed into other arts and disappear...anyone helping to promote it, like Mr. Anderson, has my support!


----------



## Mark Lynn

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> [
> But in all seriousness, I worry that Modern Arnis will be absorbed into other arts and disappear...anyone helping to promote it, like Mr. Anderson, has my support! [/B]



Amen to that.
Mark


----------



## Cruentus

> PS - It looks like we won't hit 8 pages after all. Fine by me.



Ha, ha.....we hit eight pages. artyon:


----------



## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *But in all seriousness, I worry that Modern Arnis will be absorbed into other arts and disappear...anyone helping to promote it, like Mr. Anderson, has my support! *



Not to worry.  There are a number of us who will keep it going.  And yes, we did hit 8 pages.  Yeehah!

artyon: 

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *It looks from his avatar that Mr. Farnsworth is better looking than me so I wasn't going to object to the confusion!*



I don't know about that.:rofl:


Also, with all due respect. Any serious martial artist regardless of the art will always want to keep it alive.
:asian:


----------



## Tom Caprio

all this talk and discussion about rank. I think if you are teaching modern arnis it is best receive promotion from SENIORS in modern arnis and not from people outside the style. And where do the grades stop?


----------



## Dan Anderson

Tom,

If you haven't read the entire thread, please do.  All the pros and cons are thoroughly gone over.  Thanks for your opinion, though.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS- Buy the books  :supcool:


----------



## Flatlander

I read the thread, bought the book, (and you should too), waiting for a t-shirt.  Hey Dan?  MA-80 t-shirts?


----------



## mike dizon

Dan Anderson,

Thank you for the response. have read the entire thread. I still think that to many people are seeking  high dan grades and i still believe that if one is going to accept a rank in modern arnis or in a derivative of modern arnis, then the rank promotion should come from modern arnis people. 

Flatlander abd Dan
About the book. I am sure teh book is good but no thanks too much material and training to work through here already. Maybe in the future


----------



## Emptyglass

mike dizon said:
			
		

> Dan Anderson,
> 
> Thank you for the response. have read the entire thread. I still think that to many people are seeking  high dan grades and i still believe that if one is going to accept a rank in modern arnis or in a derivative of modern arnis, then the rank promotion should come from modern arnis people.



Hi there:

Personally, I agree with the idea that since the passing of Grandmaster Presas, any ranks awarded by him are now "frozen".


Thanks,

Rich Curren


----------



## Flatlander

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> Hi there:
> 
> Personally, I agree with the idea that since the passing of Grandmaster Presas, any ranks awarded by him are now "frozen".
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rich Curren


The problem with this, though, is that then the growth of the art becomes stunted. Also, if you "freeze" people at the rank that they are, then nobody will ever go past 6th dan. You effectively make 6th dan the highest rank for ever. It does not make sense to disallow people such as the 6 datus from being recognized for growing in the art. I'm sure that if you asked any of them, or anyone that knows or trains with them, if they have gotten better since the Professor has passed, the answer would be yes. The truth is that the art did not pass with the Professor, and it will and should live on.


----------



## Dan Anderson

mike dizon said:
			
		

> Dan Anderson,
> 
> Thank you for the response. have read the entire thread. I still think that to many people are seeking  high dan grades and I still believe that if one is going to accept a rank in modern arnis or in a derivative of modern arnis, then the rank promotion should come from modern arnis people.
> 
> Flatlander and Dan
> About the book. I am sure the book is good but no thanks too much material and training to work through here already. Maybe in the future



Mike,

Thanks for your  thoughts AND I respect them.  The fact that you stated them flatly and without personal insults added is appreciated.  This was a very heated thread.  Who are you training with and for how long?  I've noticed on some other posts that you seem to be connected with some of my "older brothers" in the PI.  I am hoping that the government sponsored 2006 Remy Presas Memorial that SM Roland Dantes is working on will happen.  If so, maybe we'll meet as I'll definitely come to the PI for that.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Guro Harold

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> Thanks for your  thoughts AND I respect them.  The fact that you stated them flatly and without personal insults added is appreciated.  This was a very heated thread.  Who are you training with and for how long?  I've noticed on some other posts that you seem to be connected with some of my "older brothers" in the PI.  I am hoping that the government sponsored 2006 Remy Presas Memorial that SM Roland Dantes is working on will happen.  If so, maybe we'll meet as I'll definitely come to the PI for that.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson



We have had the pleasure of welcoming to MT at least three people who train in the Philippines who are associated with the some of the Senior Masters in the PI and Austraila, they are Sungkit, Mike Dizon, and Tom Caprio.

I think that it would be a great opportunity for the rest of the MT Modern Arnis members to learn about the Modern Arnis people and curriculum from these members and others.

So going along with Dan, please tell us about yourselves. Who you train with, and do you guys train together or know each other?  How long have you all trained in Modern Arnis?  Were you able to train with the Professor when he was alive?

Please tell us more history and other information about the Senior Members in the PI, for me, especially SM Rodel Dagoog and  and SM Roland Dantes, both whom I have personally met.

Do you know if any of them will be coming back to the US soon?

Thanks,

Palusut


----------



## Emptyglass

flatlander said:
			
		

> The problem with this, though, is that then the growth of the art becomes stunted. Also, if you "freeze" people at the rank that they are, then nobody will ever go past 6th dan. You effectively make 6th dan the highest rank for ever. It does not make sense to disallow people such as the 6 datus from being recognized for growing in the art. I'm sure that if you asked any of them, or anyone that knows or trains with them, if they have gotten better since the Professor has passed, the answer would be yes. The truth is that the art did not pass with the Professor, and it will and should live on.



Hi Flatlander:

I don't agree with you. Since when has stated rank ever been a determining factor as to the growth or value of the art? If the art is being practiced, worked with, spread and thought about it will grow. What does become stunted in my opinion are some of the art's commercial business opportunities.

As for 6th Dan being the highest, so what? What if 7th was the highest or 14th or 186,543rd Dan? It doesn't make a difference. It's just a number, a point of reference. 10th is the highest most arts folllow. Some have no grades, some have two (student/instructor), etc...

Belt rank has always rankled me a bit since many people I have come across tend to make a big deal about it. What holds value for me personally  is fighting skill, teaching skill, integrity, honesty and love of the art (all of which I believe Professor Anderson possesses in quantity).

I am positive there are many great teachers and fighters out there with no recognized rank. They just learn what they are taught, practice in dedicated fashion and attempt to grow their skills in their own unique way. In fact, I would be willing to bet that this is the original way things were done before the arts became a commercial business (however, I cannot prove this and must maintain it as a theory).

Also, there are equally skillful teachers and fighters with very high ranks and they are well-deserved.

That being said, I don't think belt ranks are necessarily a bad thing as they give people goals to shoot for etc..., but I strongly disagree with your thesis that the lack of them leads to stagnation of a particular style.

Respectfully,

Rich Curren


----------



## Dan Anderson

You know, the funny thing about rank, is essentially, ranking is positioning within a group.  Many people swear by it while others swear at it.  Whether by markings (belts, chevrons, tattoos on the arm) or by skill, there will always be positioning within a group.  And, unfortunately, there will always be some sort of contention regarding it within the group unless the leader either a) governs it with an iron hand and tells everyne to knock it off or b) can (and does) pound into the dirt anyone who disagrees with him.  If that's the case, then we just wait til he dies to begin the mud slinging.   

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## sungkit

Palusut and other Esteemed members of Martial Talk:

 I have mentioned in previous posts,I am a student of Guro Roland Dantes and have been for several years.

I have been here in the Philippines for several months training and will be here for another two months at least (hopefully)! It has been very interesting for me, as in addition to the training I have undertaken to further my understanding of kali/eskrima/arnis, I have been conducting interviews with a number of the grandmasters/masters in different parts of the philippines.

Having trained directly under the auspices of Guro Roland, I have been taught to  respect and appreciate all instructors and styles of the art who are teaching in a manner which reflects well for the art. Regardless of approaches taken, we are all doing our best to travel the journey we are on. Our paths may be different, but no body eversaid that they have to be the same. Hey, my girlfriend washes the dishes differently to me, but I do not dislike her for that!

Guro Roland was very fortunate to train directly with Professsor Remy Presas and also to have a close relationship with this remarkable man for decades. He was with him in the Philippines during the early years of modern arnis and was even with him when the art was first introduced to the USA. After his teacher stayed in the USA,he was also able to train with many other very well respected masters of various styles here. This was not disrespecting the teachings of his teacher, but was a reflection on the love of the art that his teacher helped him develop. The frame work of the art that his teacher provided him with also allowed him to learn this other material and assimilate it into what he had already been taught. 

The senior masters of modern arnis here inthe Philippines are united and have been since they were training under Professor Remy A. Presas. They have chosen to follow the paths that suit their desires and that is what martial arts are about. Individuals gaining what they want from their training and study. 

This week end I am meeting a number of the Senior Masters with my teacher, Guro Roland Dantes. This will be to conduct a group interview with them for Australasian Blitz (a great martial arts magazine in Australia. There is a distinct chance I may submit it to FMA magazine also) so that they can also contribute their views to modern arnis and what they see as the future for the art they and many others who were taught by Professor Presas and his qualified students hold dear. Should you have any questions that you would like me to ask them, you can send me them via a private message or post them here and I would be happy to do so. Please note though, any politically motivated questions will be disregarded. 

There are many students of the Professor progagating modern arnis throughout the world. Of course there are those in the Philippines. There are also masters like Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman, Dan Anderson, Dieter and many others. All of these men and their students are continuing the legacy of Professor REmy Presas. 

Palusut:
I do know that Guro Roland wil be attending the event hosted by Guro Hufana in October in Las Vegas. Hopefully you and others can attend and meet with him there.


----------



## Guro Harold

sungkit said:
			
		

> Palusut and other Esteemed members of Martial Talk:
> 
> I have mentioned in previous posts,I am a student of Guro Roland Dantes and have been for several years.
> 
> I have been here in the Philippines for several months training and will be here for another two months at least (hopefully)! It has been very interesting for me, as in addition to the training I have undertaken to further my understanding of kali/eskrima/arnis, I have been conducting interviews with a number of the grandmasters/masters in different parts of the philippines.
> 
> Having trained directly under the auspices of Guro Roland, I have been taught to  respect and appreciate all instructors and styles of the art who are teaching in a manner which reflects well for the art. Regardless of approaches taken, we are all doing our best to travel the journey we are on. Our paths may be different, but no body eversaid that they have to be the same. Hey, my girlfriend washes the dishes differently to me, but I do not dislike her for that!
> 
> Guro Roland was very fortunate to train directly with Professsor Remy Presas and also to have a close relationship with this remarkable man for decades. He was with him in the Philippines during the early years of modern arnis and was even with him when the art was first introduced to the USA. After his teacher stayed in the USA,he was also able to train with many other very well respected masters of various styles here. This was not disrespecting the teachings of his teacher, but was a reflection on the love of the art that his teacher helped him develop. The frame work of the art that his teacher provided him with also allowed him to learn this other material and assimilate it into what he had already been taught.
> 
> The senior masters of modern arnis here inthe Philippines are united and have been since they were training under Professor Remy A. Presas. They have chosen to follow the paths that suit their desires and that is what martial arts are about. Individuals gaining what they want from their training and study.
> 
> This week end I am meeting a number of the Senior Masters with my teacher, Guro Roland Dantes. This will be to conduct a group interview with them for Australasian Blitz (a great martial arts magazine in Australia. There is a distinct chance I may submit it to FMA magazine also) so that they can also contribute their views to modern arnis and what they see as the future for the art they and many others who were taught by Professor Presas and his qualified students hold dear. Should you have any questions that you would like me to ask them, you can send me them via a private message or post them here and I would be happy to do so. Please note though, any politically motivated questions will be disregarded.
> 
> There are many students of the Professor progagating modern arnis throughout the world. Of course there are those in the Philippines. There are also masters like Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman, Dan Anderson, Dieter and many others. All of these men and their students are continuing the legacy of Professor REmy Presas.
> 
> Palusut:
> I do know that Guro Roland wil be attending the event hosted by Guro Hufana in October in Las Vegas. Hopefully you and others can attend and meet with him there.



Sungkit,

Thank you very much for your post!  Please feel free to start a new thread to gather possible interview questions.

Best regards,

Palusut


----------



## Flatlander

Mr. Curren, point well taken.  I guess I should have thought that through a little better before I spoke up.  Where I meant to go with that was that the increasing of rank should be a reflection of the _individual's_ growth in the art.  I think that the fact that the ranking was endorsed by many other senior masters is what provides it credibility.  
There are particular circumstances where there are, specifically, Datus who were basically given license to grow and develop the art within their art as they saw fit.  In that context, they are literally the heads of their organizations.  Let me pose a hypothetical situation to better illustrate my position on this.  *This is purely hypotetical folks, and is not meant in any way to reflect actual people, merely a philosophical exercise.*

Two Datus of Modern Arnis are equally 'ranked'.  Now, lets say Datu "a" becomes stagnant, and no longer carries on the development of his art, while Datu "b" works tirelessly to improve, refine, develop and assist others on their paths.  Should these differences of approach, effort and skill not be reflected in some tangible way?  Put yourself into the shoes of a prospective student 10 years down the road.  Would you not appreciate a roadsign to assist you in choosing your path?  

These are only my opinions.  I personally have no gain to be realized by any of this in any way, notwithstanding how it may affect me 30 years from now.

Please, I mean no offense here.
Dan Bowman.


----------



## arnisandyz

flatlander said:
			
		

> Two Datus of Modern Arnis are equally 'ranked'.  Now, lets say Datu "a" becomes stagnant, and no longer carries on the development of his art, while Datu "b" works tirelessly to improve, refine, develop and assist others on their paths.  Should these differences of approach, effort and skill not be reflected in some tangible way?  Put yourself into the shoes of a prospective student 10 years down the road.  Would you not appreciate a roadsign to assist you in choosing your path?
> 
> If take term Datu literally, it means Chieftan of King. I believe Professor appointed these men for there leadership ability among other things.
> 
> If you think of it this way, can you not have one King who is a good leader of the people, feeds the poor, provides medication and shelter and across the river have a ruthless leader that rapes and plunders the land?  In the end they are both still kings of there own people.  How do you know who is a good king and bad king?  There are more telling signs than how many rubys they have in there crown.


----------



## Guro Harold

flatlander said:
			
		

> Mr. Curren, point well taken.  I guess I should have thought that through a little better before I spoke up...
> 
> Please, I mean no offense here.
> Dan Bowman.



Dan,

Thanks for setting the example of what "friendly discussion means"!

Mod Note:

Hello Everyone,

Please read this notice stated here by Seig:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15344

We will not tolerate beleaguering our fellow members.  Please remember that friendly discussions does not mean that you win the argument or to coerce someone to believe the same way as you.

It that means you state and share your points on topic and in a courteous and respectable manner.

If the discussion gets heated, then take it offline and PM the parties involved.  If you as a member feel that you are being harassed or someone has stepped over the line, then report the post or behavior to a Moderator.

Best regards,

Palusut
MT Moderator


----------



## Flatlander

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> If take term Datu literally, it means Chieftan of King. I believe Professor appointed these men for there leadership ability among other things.
> 
> If you think of it this way, can you not have one King who is a good leader of the people, feeds the poor, provides medication and shelter and across the river have a ruthless leader that rapes and plunders the land? In the end they are both still kings of there own people. How do you know who is a good king and bad king? There are more telling signs than how many rubys they have in there crown.


Very, very nice. Thank you Andy. Excellent point. Then, what you mean effectively, is that "Datu" is enough. Well, you're right. For me, it is enough. 

Very respectful of Andy, who is quite obviously wise,
Dan Bowman.


----------



## Emptyglass

flatlander said:
			
		

> Mr. Curren, point well taken.  I guess I should have thought that through a little better before I spoke up.  Where I meant to go with that was that the increasing of rank should be a reflection of the _individual's_ growth in the art.  I think that the fact that the ranking was endorsed by many other senior masters is what provides it credibility.
> There are particular circumstances where there are, specifically, Datus who were basically given license to grow and develop the art within their art as they saw fit.  In that context, they are literally the heads of their organizations.  Let me pose a hypothetical situation to better illustrate my position on this.  *This is purely hypotetical folks, and is not meant in any way to reflect actual people, merely a philosophical exercise.*
> 
> Two Datus of Modern Arnis are equally 'ranked'.  Now, lets say Datu "a" becomes stagnant, and no longer carries on the development of his art, while Datu "b" works tirelessly to improve, refine, develop and assist others on their paths.  Should these differences of approach, effort and skill not be reflected in some tangible way?  Put yourself into the shoes of a prospective student 10 years down the road.  Would you not appreciate a roadsign to assist you in choosing your path?
> 
> These are only my opinions.  I personally have no gain to be realized by any of this in any way, notwithstanding how it may affect me 30 years from now.
> 
> Please, I mean no offense here.
> Dan Bowman.



Hi Dan Bowman:

I figured you might want to clarify your statement and appreciate that you have. Please note, I am not speaking of any individual's current rank in my post. I am simply discussing the intrinsic value of ranking in the martial arts in general (and Modern Arnis specifically) as related to the development of those arts.

In your example: If a datu were to become inactive and discontinue practice and development, I would hope that they would be honest enough with themselves to then "step down" or retire to make way for those who have continued to work developing and growing the art through active practice, teaching and promotion. However, I do fully realize this is a fairly ridiculous proposition if someone's business is teaching the martial arts. Their living if you will. Most often I would think the desire to put food on the table may outweigh such sensibilities. Again, I'm referring to no particular instructor or person here so please don't get wound up over this.

All of the instructors I've seen mentioned in this long post are actively pursuing their own goals and development. 

Honestly, I think this is one of the main concepts that Professor Presas used to try to impress upon people (at least in my experience with him). It's not often touched upon that I've seen by many Modern Arnis instructors that I've come across. He wanted people to develop their own movement/style/application. To make it theirs. To break free from static "do as I do and only as I do" training.

But...

He also wanted them to respect their roots and not discount or forget what he and others had taught them before. To learn what he was teaching but also to reach beyond to find their own way. To pay proper respect to their resources.

*Note: Controversial Statement follows. Please do not flame and consider your reaction before answering:* 

However, since no clear successor that I can see to Grandmaster Remy A. Presas' Modern Arnis system has emerged that has been agreed upon by all involved parties then I would put forth that the Modern Arnis system of Remy A. Presas no longer exists in the format that the Grandmaster taught it. Each of the leading instructors worldwide is going to add in their own movement, influences and additional learning into what they are teaching their students. If they don't, then they have already become stagnant. All martial arts have to grow and adapt to the times they are being used to address new challenges and ideas. 

Therefore, I personally believe upper level - Lakan and higher (and possibly all) ranking in Grandmaster Remy A. Presas' Modern Arnis system should now be frozen. It's done. They are accomplishments worthy of respect but they have gone as high as they can now go. At the least I think people should note (as Professor Anderson has done) where one ranking left off and the other picked up.

That is an explanation of my thought process and reasoning in the matter and I am certainly willing to read and listen to other arguments. These are my own opinions and I am not involved in the organizations of any of the current Modern Arnis instructors out there.

In any case, this is a good discussion which is touching on many good topics. Certainly no offense is taken on my part as these are issues I would really like to discuss with people who can address them with an open heart and mind.

Respectfully,

Rich Curren


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## Dan Anderson

Sungkit,

Thaks for all the info!  I hope to meet Guro Roland when he is in Las Vegas.  He and I have had several very good emails back and forth.

Rich, Dan & Andy,

You've got some very good _discussions_ going and as the original target of this thread, I find them good reading and not inflamatory at all.

As to ranking, titles, and so forth, in the end we all put our pants on the same way in the morning - one leg at a time (unless someone jumps from the top bunk into those incredibly baggy shorts).

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Rich - I like that idea of becoming a 186,543rd Dan.  I suppose I'll have to be satisfied with being the first _Dan_ of my family.  You may commence groaning now.  :boing2:

PPS - Hey! 9 pages now.


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## Flatlander

And thank you Rich Curren, for your effective clarification.  Point well taken.  You seem to be a very reasonable person.  It's my honor to have met you here.  

I think we all understand each other.
Dan Bowman.


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## Emptyglass

flatlander said:
			
		

> And thank you Rich Curren, for your effective clarification.  Point well taken.  You seem to be a very reasonable person.  It's my honor to have met you here.
> 
> I think we all understand each other.
> Dan Bowman.



You're welcome Dan Bowman. The same goes for you.

Respectfully,

Rich Curren


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## mcjon77

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> Therefore, I personally believe upper level - Lakan and higher (and possibly all) ranking in Grandmaster Remy A. Presas' Modern Arnis system should now be frozen. It's done. They are accomplishments worthy of respect but they have gone as high as they can now go.


Hi Mr. Curran,

Just wondering, by that line of thinking, would that mean that anyone that started training in Modern Arnis after the death of the Professor could never be awarded a black belt (Lakan)?  It seems like doing that would stifle the art a little, no?  What should instructors/Senior Masters do? teach only what the professor taught, but award no new rank to students? Or should they create some distinction in the name of their style to reflect changes/evolution they have made in their expression of the Professor's system?  Also, is this different from any other martial art in which the head of the style dies? What style hasn't had at least SOME splintering following the death of the founder?

I guess the catch 22 for the senior masters in Modern Arnis is this:
If they teach only what they learned from the professor, people will say that there expression of the art has become stagnent.  If they continue to grow and develop MA there are those that will say they are not doing the "true" art of MA and should not call it Modern Arnis.  If they change the name to reflect their inovations, others will say they are simply repackaging and renaming Modern Arnis and presenting it as a new art.

This is really no different from the splintering of a large family after the head of that family passes away.  When my grandfather died, there was an unconcious desire to "appoint" a new head of the family.  However, there was naturally some infighting as to who that would be.  What wound up happening is that my mother, uncles and aunts gradually started focusing more on leading their own families as opposed to trying to keep the extended family "united" together under some appointed head of the extended family.  In many ways it has allowed each person's family to further form an identity outside the extended family.  We all still love each other, hang out together and have fun, but we no longer have to rely on a supreme leader who has the final say in matters.  This is just a natural course of events.

Jon


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## Cruentus

Jon,

You make a lot of interesting points...good stuff to think about.

Here's my take on it...not do agree or disagree with anyone here...

Rank: A lot of things are involved in rank. Your skill, other factors...and WHO you got it from. 

In reverse order...
*Who:* No matter how hard we try to make it not so, how far we came along under Professor will never change. If I only recieved a brown belt, 1st degree, or 5th degree from Professor, then that is as far as that will go. Nothing will change my rank under Professor. 

Now...does that mean that you are locked in and can never improve your abilities beyond your brown belt that you recieved? No...in fact...you could improve and excel well past any Datu or Master on the floor. So...should you be able to get additional "rank"? If your doing the rank thing, then, absolutely. However, your WMAA, IMAF Inc., or independent certificate signed by different masters will not make it a Rank in Remy Presas. The paperwork may say "Modern Arnis"...which is fine if that is the art that you claim....but it will not be the same as a signed piece of paper from Remy Presas.

So, that is where the dicotomy is. Your rank that was recieved by Remy is essentially "frozen," obviously, because he is not alive to give out any new rank. However, you can still get ranked in Modern Arnis... and the legitimacy of that will depend on who you recieve it from, and more importantly, how well you can back it up.

*Other factors:* People got rank in wierd time and at wierd places. There was not "standard" when it came to rank. Some have earned their rank through testing...some were given rank without testing. Some got it through skill, some got it through politicizing and favors. The standard as to how one recieved rank will vary depend on who you talk to. I have no doubt in my mind that there may be "no ranks" out there who can outperform a 5th degree in Modern Arnis. THis is where the whole issue gets very touchy, and many (including myself at times) can get fustrated.

Rank...by itself, does not fairly represent your skill in comparison to "the group"....period... at least not in Modern Arnis. I think the important question one needs to ask oneself is "what does MY rank mean to ME."

*Skill* True legitamacy everything to do with skill, and nothing to do with anything else. If you were a 5th or 7th or 9th degree, but you cannot perform in a manner acceptable by the public of that rank, then people aren't going to buy whatever your selling. That is the bottom line. I don't care if you tested and bled for your rank, or if you recieved it because you bought Remy and airplane ticket. If you can back it up, then on the floor (where it matters) there will be no questions...If you can't...then it doesn't matter how legetimate your recieving it was.

As the saying goes, time will promote or expose you. A 9th degree for someone deserving of it will be a great credential and tool for them to use while spreading the art.... a 9th degree to someone not deserving will only be enough rope for them to hang themselves.

On to another subject...

The catch 22: You are correct in your assessment here. How I handle it is I plan to be able to seperate what I know from Professor, and what I have gathered from other systems. If your proficient in an art, you can keep it seperate from your other arts or stylistic add on's. That way, I am still teaching the stylistic add on's, but I can present them in a way so that the student knows where what came from where.

Now...the thing is, Professor's art was "modern" for the reason that it was never meant to be kept in a vaccum. Professor was always evolving his style. For us to not do the same, to be preservationists, In my opinion is not condusive of what Modern Arnis is supposed to be about. However...I understand your point, which is why I try to remember who taught me what, and keep that in mind when training and teaching.

The family: We are all family, like it or not. We are all "Successors"...all of us. So, the question isn't who is "worthy" or "the rightful heir"...the question is, what are YOU going to do about YOUR successorship?

Paul


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## Dan Anderson

> ...would that mean that anyone that started training in Modern Arnis after the death of the Professor could never be awarded a black belt (Lakan)?



Jon,
No.  Case in point - Datu Kelly Worden (8th degree) and his wife, Laura (6th degree), just received new ranks from Remy Presas Jr. (MARPPIO) and the certificates were countersigned by Rosemary Presas.  These are legitimate  Modern Arnis ranks.  They are not, however, Remy Presas ranks as he has passed away.  They are just issued by another authority.   



> I guess the catch 22 for the senior masters in Modern Arnis is this:
> If they teach only what they learned from the professor, people will say that there expression of the art has become stagnent. If they continue to grow and develop MA there are those that will say they are not doing the "true" art of MA and should not call it Modern Arnis. If they change the name to reflect their inovations, others will say they are simply repackaging and renaming Modern Arnis and presenting it as a new art.



*Very* aptly stated.  Been there, done that, living with my decision.



> This is really no different from the splintering of a large family after the head of that family passes away.



Yep.

Paul,
As usual your spelling is questionable but you make very solid points.  Great posts, both of you.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Tgace

I think that the whole issue of rank is an interesting topic. IMO, I think that the concept of rank has major ties to military structure. Military rank at its most basic, is a system of grading command so as to control groups of fighting personnel (and a way of determining how much you get paid). Theres also social rank where people classify themselves based on wealth, ancestry and so on.

Now martial arts rank, what is its ultimate purpose? Is it simply to give the student a marker of progress? Is it a social pecking order? Is there some sort of vestigial military influence where higher ranks believe they have "command authority" over lower ranks? 

The problem with rank of any type, in any organization, is that it can be used as a "weapon" by people with ego, self-esteem and control issues.


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## Dan Anderson

Tgace said:
			
		

> I think that the whole issue of rank is an interesting topic. *
> 1.*IMO, I think that the concept of rank has major ties to military structure. Military rank at its most basic, is a system of grading command so as to control groups of fighting personnel (and a way of determining how much you get paid).
> 
> *2.*Theres also social rank where people classify themselves based on wealth, ancestry and so on.
> 
> *3.*Now martial arts rank, what is its ultimate purpose? Is it simply to give the student a marker of progress? Is it a social pecking order? Is there some sort of vestigial military influence where higher ranks believe they have "command authority" over lower ranks?
> 
> *4.*The problem with rank of any type, in any organization, is that it can be used as a "weapon" by people with ego, self-esteem and control issues.



Tgace,

1&2.  Interesting in the fact that this type of martial arts ranking originated in Japan, a country with a rigid military history as well as rigid social class system.

3.  It would seem that ranking, these days, includes all of the above ot one degree or another.

4.  The arrow hits dead on.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador

The original purpose of Jigaro Kano's _dan_ grades was to separate sport players by degree of skill--sort of like having amateur, semi-pro, and pro baseball players. Higher grades were to reward and acknoweldge contributions to the sport.


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## Cruentus

> Paul,
> As usual your spelling is questionable but you make very solid points. Great posts, both of you.



I know...I type as fast as I talk!

Could my grammer be anytworse?

Yours,

Bill Cosby


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## Tgace

I would also venture to say that many students need some sort of tangible symbol of progress in the "It dosent matter that I just effectively defended myself...I dont feel like I know what Im doing without that belt" vein.

And many instructors need multiple belt levels to squeeze more testing fees out.


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## Dan Anderson

arnisador said:
			
		

> The original purpose of Jigaro Kano's _dan_ grades was to separate sport players by degree of skill--sort of like having amateur, semi-pro, and pro baseball players. Higher grades were to reward and acknoweldge contributions to the sport.



I knew someone would have the historical answer to that.  Thanks.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - we're on page 10.  :asian:


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## DoxN4cer

Tgace said:
			
		

> I would also venture to say that many students need some sort of tangible symbol of progress in the "It dosent matter that I just effectively defended myself...I dont feel like I know what Im doing without that belt" vein.
> 
> And many instructors need multiple belt levels to squeeze more testing fees out.



Most students do have a tangible symbol of progress.  It's called *skill*.
They just don't realize it because of all the commercial hype surrounding martial arts.

TK


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## ricthedic

I WISH ALL TEACHERS,MASTERS,GUROS,SHIHANS,SIFUS WHAT EVER HIGH RANK YOU ARE GET TOGETHER AS ONE ORGANIZED SANCTIONED BODY MAKE EVERY ONE PROVE THEIR INDIVIDUAL WORTH IN THE WORLD OF MARTIAL-ARTS THEN WE WOULDNT HAVE ALL THIS NONSENSE ABOUT WHOS REAL AND WHOS NOT. THERE ARE SO MANY WHO SHOULDNT TEACH YET THEY DO! IM THREE YEARS NEW TO THE ARTS BUT HAVE SEEN SO MUCH IN THE PHILIPPINES,CHINA,JAMAICA,USA IVE PERSONALLY BEEN THERE ITS ALL THE SAME EGO,FAME,FORTUNE WHAT HAPPEN TO THE ART I STILL BELIEVE ITS THERE PLEASE GO BACK TO WHERE YOU STARTED THINK THOSE PURE THOUGHTS OF UNITY,HONESTY,LOYALTY,FREINDSHIP,COMRODEREE THATS MORE IMPORTANT THAN RANK,MONEY,FAME ALL THOSE COME TO THE GOOD AND IF THEY DONT OH WELL YOU DONT NEED THEM SOMEONE ELSE DOES JUST KEEP TRAINING AND HELP YOUR FELLOW MAN ITS BETTER TO GIVE THAN RECEIVE.     RICK ARGENTI-BROWN BELT


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## KenpoSterre

please don't use all caps. Its considered yelling, is hard to read, and rude.


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## KenpoSterre

but you have some very good points there.


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## Dan Anderson

ricthedic said:
			
		

> I WISH ALL TEACHERS,MASTERS,GUROS,SHIHANS,SIFUS WHAT EVER HIGH RANK YOU ARE GET TOGETHER AS ONE ORGANIZED SANCTIONED BODY MAKE EVERY ONE PROVE THEIR INDIVIDUAL WORTH IN THE WORLD OF MARTIAL-ARTS THEN WE WOULDNT HAVE ALL THIS NONSENSE ABOUT WHOS REAL AND WHOS NOT. THERE ARE SO MANY WHO SHOULDNT TEACH YET THEY DO! IM THREE YEARS NEW TO THE ARTS BUT HAVE SEEN SO MUCH IN THE PHILIPPINES,CHINA,JAMAICA,USA IVE PERSONALLY BEEN THERE ITS ALL THE SAME EGO,FAME,FORTUNE WHAT HAPPEN TO THE ART I STILL BELIEVE ITS THERE PLEASE GO BACK TO WHERE YOU STARTED THINK THOSE PURE THOUGHTS OF UNITY,HONESTY,LOYALTY,FREINDSHIP,COMRODEREE THATS MORE IMPORTANT THAN RANK,MONEY,FAME ALL THOSE COME TO THE GOOD AND IF THEY DONT OH WELL YOU DONT NEED THEM SOMEONE ELSE DOES JUST KEEP TRAINING AND HELP YOUR FELLOW MAN ITS BETTER TO GIVE THAN RECEIVE. RICK ARGENTI-BROWN BELT


Rick,

Have you read the thread about the Worldwide Brotherhood of Modern Arnis.  This is what we are trying to do.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Darkmoon

I am surprised every time people bring up belt rank and not ability or knowledge on a subject. After reading a good number of the posts... they remind me of kids yelling at each other on the playground over whose bike is better when they are odiously equal. Dan is great leave him be. Thanks to Paul and Rich.


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## Dan Anderson

Hi Dark,

Thanks. In all fairness to Rick, he's new on the site and probably hasn't had the time to read ALL the posts, positive and negative, to get a balanced view. From what I've read, he's got a good heart.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Ahhhhhh, Rich and Paul have played a part in my development. It's up to history to decide whether it's been good or bad. (lol)  Actually, Rich and Paul are good eggs.


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## Cruentus

Dan Anderson said:


> (lol) Actually, Rich and Paul are good eggs.


 
And sometimes we smell like eggs too!


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## Art M.

Rank is just paper.  See how they are on the mat and how they carry themselves outside the dojo?  That is the real test...imo


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## stanly stud

Kenpo viking said:


> This has to be the joke of the year. Dan Anderson has promoted himself to 8th degree he didnt even take the time to stop at seventh. But I may be wrong In that case when, were and under who did he test for 7th degree. I dont care if they done great things or has the time to step up but self-promotion wwwwooooo that will you make you a better martial artist. Or is it ego and not standing that there are others who are better and have been at the art longer then himself.
> 
> http://www.danandersonkarate.com/promotion.html


old thread but why not the Gracies give themselves red belts...


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## isshinryuronin

This is an old post, resurected, but it's a slow day today.

In the early days of Okinawan karate there was no rank; just teacher (licensed by the master) and student.  Then, levels of teacher evolved:  _Renshi, Kyoshi_ (Miyagi Chojun was the first), and _Hanshi_.  Back then, "styles" (which were not so much personal ones, but known mostly by the town they were practiced in) were not such a big thing - many of the masters cross-trained in other styles and with each other.  Okinawa was a small place and offered little chance for imposters.  The _dan_ and belt system of judo's Kano would not be adopted there till early 1930's.

(note:  In the interests of brevity, I may be taking slight liberty with specific timeline and some minor details)

So, the question is regarding, if there were no previous _Kyoshi, Hanshi_, or, 8th, 9th or 10th degree black belts, how did one get to become one?  Who had the authority to promote Miyagi to _Kyoshi_ if there were no superior _Hanshi_, or to 8th _dan_ if there was no 9th _dan_?  The answer is "no _one_."

Such promotions were done by committee and consensus (in the Oriental custom).  The top guys (from the various styles) all knew each other and held each other in high esteem.  They got together and as a group gave out rank.  The first such group was the _Butoku kai.  _Later on, it was the All Okinawa Karate and Kobudo Assn.  This group awarded Tatsuo Shimabuku and Hohan Soken their _Hanshi_ title.  There was no question of the validity of such honor - It was given by their peers who's own reputations were beyond reproach.

Sadly, but perhaps unavoidably, that did not carry over into the Western world and across the decades.  Karate got too big and splintered, a victim of its own success.  This affected Shotokan and TKD somewhat less than the Okinawan styles.  These styles, in Japan and Korea were more institutionalized from the start than the Okinawans, and when exported to the West, retained some organizational integrity.  There are some Western dojos that do keep ties with Okinawa and are usually known for high standards (Not to say there aren't independent dojos that do so, as well) 

Conformity is not a big imperative in the West (especially the US) as in the Orient.  We tend to "do our own thing" and not care so much what others think.  Peer pressure and acceptance is not as highly valued.  So it is, I think, that we find no consistency in high rank.  In too many cases, rank is just a piece of paper.  Each high rank must now be judged on the individual's teacher, skill and knowledge, and cannot be taken at face value.


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## stanly stud

Art M. said:


> Rank is just paper.  See how they are on the mat and how they carry themselves outside the dojo?  That is the real test...imo


*this...*


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## dvcochran

stanly stud said:


> *this...*



If that is what rank is to you then it is 100% true.

That being said; 
Is there any kind of vertical structure in what you do for a living? 
Do titles ever change? 
Does experience and time on the job qualify you for additional pay or benefits? 
Does having additional knowledge or skill add to your responsibilities?

If any of these are true, then what is the difference in someone being recognized after 20,30, or 40 years of effort and contribution to their MA?

I fully get the "you have to be able to walk the walk" mentality. But there is just more to legitimate rank than what is being implied.


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## stanly stud

dvcochran said:


> If that is what rank is to you then it is 100% true.
> 
> That being said;
> Is there any kind of vertical structure in what you do for a living?
> Do titles ever change?
> Does experience and time on the job qualify you for additional pay or benefits?
> Does having additional knowledge or skill add to your responsibilities?
> 
> If any of these are true, then what is the difference in someone being recognized after 20,30, or 40 years of effort and contribution to their MA?
> 
> I fully get the "you have to be able to walk the walk" mentality. But there is just more to legitimate rank than what is being implied.


there are people who deserve it but there are black sheep out there. I remember watching some Grand master of an atemi style of ju jitsu just touching people & they were suddenly "stunned"  most of it utter BS. Where i live i know a so called Master who did a few systems not to a great degree & Hey Ho  made up his own style where he´s a "Grand Master"


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## dvcochran

stanly stud said:


> there are people who deserve it but there are black sheep out there. I remember watching some Grand master of an atemi style of ju jitsu just touching people & they were suddenly "stunned"  most of it utter BS. Where i live i know a so called Master who did a few systems not to a great degree & Hey Ho  made up his own style where he´s a "Grand Master"



Sure. Similar statements can be said of people at every rank and belt level. 
We too often live in a world where the exceptions set the standard for people’s perception. So perception ends up being reality for some people. Even when they know little to nothing about the subject. 
Ranking is more about organization and management than anything else. Yes, it is definitely a merit system which Usually requires great effort to move through. 
Sadly there are legitimate con artists in everything. Even more sad are the people who do not even know they are doing the con. 
The quality high ranking people I know who have a little grey hair do not worry too much about how they would fare in the ring any more. The good ones are thinking about integrity in their style and sometimes just keeping  a style alive. 
Martial Arts has very many facets to it.


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## stanly stud

dvcochran said:


> Sure. Similar statements can be said of people at every rank and belt level.
> We too often live in a world where the exceptions set the standard for people’s perception. So perception ends up being reality for some people. Even when they know little to nothing about the subject.
> Ranking is more about organization and management than anything else. Yes, it is definitely a merit system which Usually requires great effort to move through.
> Sadly there are legitimate con artists in everything. Even more sad are the people who do not even know they are doing the con.
> The quality high ranking people I know who have a little grey hair do not worry too much about how they would fare in the ring any more. The good ones are thinking about integrity in their style and sometimes just keeping  a style alive.
> Martial Arts has very many facets to it.


yes i understand your thoughts here. However some of these charlatans teach things that might get their poor naive students hurt in a real fight.


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## dvcochran

stanly stud said:


> yes i understand your thoughts here. However some of these charlatans teach things that might get their poor naive students hurt in a real fight.


To be sure, there is some buyer beware in MA classes just like anything else. So much has been debunked I feel this is much less of an issue than it used to be.


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## stanly stud

dvcochran said:


> To be sure, there is some buyer beware in MA classes just like anything else. So much has been debunked I feel this is much less of an issue than it used to be.


seen some funny videos of so called Black belts in BJJ


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## geezer

stanly stud said:


> there are people who deserve it but there are black sheep out there.



Stanley, when will these people ever learn that it's useless to fight over paper certificates and arbitrary ranks when facing the reality of....

FOOM FOOM FOOOM!


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