# Off with their heads



## GRIM (Jul 7, 2005)

I currently train in kenpo karate but have been studing kick boxing a little bit. My question has to do with kicks to the head and peoples opinions on defense against said kicks. 

At my school I am really the only one who throws kicks to the head my favorit being a rear leg roundhouse I set up with repetitive front kicks with the same leg, (conditioning my opponent).

Being only 5'8 I always worry about high kicks from taller opponents. If They throw a high roundhouse I try to move up the circle maybe pat down jab or pat down cross depending upon which leg they kick with. 

Any ideas?


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## Sapper6 (Jul 7, 2005)

standing upright, toe-to-toe with an aggressor, i would never kick high to the head.  it only opens up targets on yourself, and creating opportunity for a failed strike fall.

now after attacking low and causing the aggressor to bend or by cancelling their height, a kick to the head could be more appropriate.


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## goshawk (Jul 7, 2005)

GRIM said:
			
		

> Being only 5'8 I always worry about high kicks from taller opponents. If They throw a high roundhouse I try to move up the circle maybe pat down jab or pat down cross depending upon which leg they kick with.
> 
> Any ideas?


::snicker:: Sorry, s'just that I'm 5'4"...

But I understand the issue. I try to duck or back away out of range (dangerous as you're moving to the fastest part of the kick, but doable) and come back in as they're off-balance from the high kick, but I know that doesn't always happen. I mean, great theory and all, but generally the only people who kick to the head in sparring are instructors trying to make us think about it, so the chances of catching them off-guard are low.

Other than that, I keep my hands up, try to block the kick that way. It's not ideal and it'd probably break or injure your forearms in a real fight, but it's better than your skull. And really, who on the street is going to kick you in the head unless you're already on the ground?

Hope that helped a bit.


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## DavidCC (Jul 7, 2005)

goshawk said:
			
		

> And really, who on the street is going to kick you in the head unless you're already on the ground?


 
People who trained in TKD?


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## swiftpete (Jul 7, 2005)

I would try not to pull back if a high kick was coming my way, would be better to move forward and get inside where it doesn't have any real power. an elbow to the solar plexus as they swing high kick at you really sends them flying! if someone is kicking at you a lot, i think moving forward into them with a hard knee or an elbow is better than blocking the kick at its fastest point with your forearm.


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## MJS (Jul 7, 2005)

GRIM said:
			
		

> I currently train in kenpo karate but have been studing kick boxing a little bit. My question has to do with kicks to the head and peoples opinions on defense against said kicks.
> 
> At my school I am really the only one who throws kicks to the head my favorit being a rear leg roundhouse I set up with repetitive front kicks with the same leg, (conditioning my opponent).
> 
> ...



If you're referring to high kicks in a SD situation, IMO, I'd keep them low rather than high.  Is it possible to get a KO from a high kick? Sure, but I'd rather not take the chance that my opp. could see the kick coming, jam it, etc.  Instead, I'd focus on lower line kicks.

As for you defending them...as it was said, it is possible to move to the inside of the kick and counter.  

Mike


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## GRIM (Jul 7, 2005)

Some good stuff coming out of this for sure. In my experience with other styles there are a variety of ways to lead into the high kicks. Ex, hand combos to kicks to the head as in kickboxing, or low kicks to high kick combinations as in TKD. 

I agree that high kicks aren't something to just be thrown around so to speak. All the same coupled with good hand strikes and a retreating or dazed opponent they can be very effective.

I like the elbow idea but alot of people, if the don't train with you alot hate the idea of throwing elbows in a sparring situation. 

Keep em coming


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## Seabrook (Jul 8, 2005)

GRIM said:
			
		

> I currently train in kenpo karate but have been studing kick boxing a little bit. My question has to do with kicks to the head and peoples opinions on defense against said kicks.
> 
> At my school I am really the only one who throws kicks to the head my favorit being a rear leg roundhouse I set up with repetitive front kicks with the same leg, (conditioning my opponent).
> 
> ...


While high kicks have there place in tournament sparring, I recommend low kicks to vital targets (i.e. shins, knees, groin, inner thigh) in actual street application. Not only do they cause more injury to your opponent, but they leave you less vulnerable, and are more difficult for the opponent to block.

As for a defense for a rear-leg roundhouse kick, Swinging Pendulum rocks the house. Just realize that the universal block is a positioning block, and that stepping off angle puts you past the apex of the circle where all of the power will be. Also, when you get really good at the move, you can skip the block, move up the circle, and just let him have it with the groin strike (assuming a real attack, and not just a sparring match, lol). 

Hope that helps.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## searcher (Jul 8, 2005)

Move with the flow of the kick and keep your hands up.   If you are in range of them to kick then you need to be hitting them with something, if not gett out of their range.   Sounds simple, but most people struggle with it.


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## GRIM (Jul 9, 2005)

I think both seabrook and searcher are right the way i get my kicks to the head are A. conditioning the opponent to react a certain way and B. the fact that if you put the kick up there fast people have the tendencyto freeze up that was one of the hardest things for me to get over.


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## Simon Curran (Jul 9, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> As for a defense for a rear-leg roundhouse kick, Swinging Pendulum rocks the house.
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


I'm definately with you on that one, and in sparring situations, I tend to hammer my elbow into the inner thigh of the guy kicking; they like that...


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## Doc (Jul 9, 2005)

GRIM said:
			
		

> I think both seabrook and searcher are right the way i get my kicks to the head are A. conditioning the opponent to react a certain way and B. the fact that if you put the kick up there fast people have the tendencyto freeze up that was one of the hardest things for me to get over.


Sounds to me like you're talking about competition, not fighting. Mr. Parker always said,"It makes as much sense to try to kick a man standing up right in the head, as it does to drop and punch him in the foot." Makes sense to me but you do what you want, its your butt.


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## silatman (Jul 9, 2005)

Step inside the kick and strike to the shoulder of the attacking side with a heel of palm strike whilst scooping up the leg with the other arm flow straight into a takedown the rest writes its self.


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## Han-Mi (Jul 9, 2005)

block it?

It's always good to side step and counter, or close the space between you and your opponent before the leg comes around, but if you don't have the speed or expereince to do these yet, block it then counter, sometimes you can even do both at once.  If you are quick enough you can always try to duck it or dodge. The person could always change up their kick anc come down on you, but that takes muscle manipulation that requires a certain amount of development, with the lack of kicking training in Kenpo I would assume that you wouldn't have a huge problem with that.


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## Doc (Jul 9, 2005)

Han-Mi said:
			
		

> block it?
> 
> It's always good to side step and counter, or close the space between you and your opponent before the leg comes around, but if you don't have the speed or expereince to do these yet, block it then counter, sometimes you can even do both at once.  If you are quick enough you can always try to duck it or dodge. The person could always change up their kick anc come down on you, but that takes muscle manipulation that requires a certain amount of development, with the lack of kicking training in Kenpo I would assume that you wouldn't have a huge problem with that.


You guys still sparring and ducking high kicks? Hope you can fight as well.


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## GRIM (Jul 9, 2005)

Doc one name comes to mind "Chuck Liddel" Hawain kempo guy who has quit a few knock outs with kicks to the head, not to say they work all the time or even 50 percent of the time but the truth is there, they can work in a fight.

As far as Mr. Parkers quote, my experience has been those who trash high kicks usally can't do them no offense ment but that's been my experience. 

Also seeing how TKD is the most popular martial art ever it makes sense if your unknown opponent has experience it may very well be from this art.( not saying it is a street tactic) Not to say that high kicks are my personal favorite I prefer cut kicks to the leg, but variety if the flavor of life and it makes sense to know how to throw them and also how to defend them.

On that note, the technique Calming the Storm has some application here. Yes you will use an extended outword block but, with a straight puch to the face or palm hell to the chest or shoulder the kickers power is drastically reduced and they are off balance. I have yet to try this but in theroy it sounds good.

Once again I appericate all the post on this topic.:asian:


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## Doc (Jul 9, 2005)

GRIM said:
			
		

> Doc one name comes to mind "Chuck Liddel" Hawain kempo guy who has quit a few knock outs with kicks to the head, not to say they work all the time or even 50 percent of the time but the truth is there, they can work in a fight.


In modern American martial arts there is always a tendancy to confuse competition success with fighting prowess. Although there are some emotional crossovers, they are not the same and should not be compared.


> As far as Mr. Parkers quote, my experience has been those who trash high kicks usally can't do them no offense ment but that's been my experience.


Well not to discount your experience, but because a person doesn't believe in something doesn't mean he's not capable if he chose to include them in his arsenal. I DID my share of high kicks when sparring occupied a greater part of my martial arts activity, however my street fight philosophy did not include them for the same reasons my teacher didn't believe in them. They are impractical no matter how you choose to look at it. Odds are they won't work on the street. The difference is in competition you might lose the match. In the real world you could lose a lot more. Or as Mr. Parker often said, "You don't roll the dice quite as much when it's YOUR *** you're betting on." Between the two us us we had seen our share of street fights, and not once in his or my own almost sixty years have I ever seen anyone lose a fight because someone kicked them in the head while standing up.


> Also seeing how TKD is the most popular martial art ever ...


Incorrect. Make that "martial arts SPORT."


> it makes sense if your unknown opponent has experience it may very well be from this art.( not saying it is a street tactic) Not to say that high kicks are my personal favorite I prefer cut kicks to the leg, but variety if the flavor of life and it makes sense to know how to throw them and also how to defend them.


Apple and hand grenades. Throwing them and defending them are mutually exclusive activities. As far as someone who "might" be familiar with one of those kicking arts in a real fight, I'd take them anyday over any other partial art. Reality has a way of teaching us lessons that add up to experience. I venture to say I've made more really bad people, do more things and go more places they didn't want to go than the average 50 martial sportist in the last thirty years, so I'll stick with Mr. Parker's advice and my own experience. I'm sure you will do the same sir, until you receive a lesson or two that changes your mind. No harm, no foul.


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## GRIM (Jul 9, 2005)

I must concur with most your points, however this thread was started with the intent to discuss different peoples experiences on defending head kicks. Obviously a sparring oriented qeustion. 

 I whole heartedly agree that kicking to the head is, as you said an unnecessary gamble. The very same thing my instuctors say to me. In a self defense situation I personally would be very hard pressed to ever even think to throw one. 

 All the same if knocked to one knee and the opponent attempted to kick at your head the leg might move at much the same angle and use the same part of the leg for a weapon as a high kick. So your defense might be the same for this secnario as in a person throwing a high kick. 

 As much experience in the arts as you have, I'm sure you must have more than a few technical preferences when dealing with high kicks. Honestly I would more like to hear and discuss those that debate the practical application of the kick it's self.


 With respect,
     Grim


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## MJS (Jul 10, 2005)

Everything has its time and place.  That being said, we are talking about 2 very different areas here: sport and street.  In a point sparring match, mistakes can be made.  The worst thats going to happen is you lose the match.  Considering that there are many effective targets lower on the body, I'd rather not take that chance and hit to the head in a street situation.  

As far as this:



> As far as Mr. Parkers quote, my experience has been those who trash high kicks usally can't do them no offense ment but that's been my experience.



IMO, I don't think that it applies strictly to those that may not be able to do them, but to those that do not feel the need to do them, again, as I said above, because there are many targets lower on the body.  

Mike


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## GRIM (Jul 10, 2005)

Good point and simply stated, very nice. 

 I've only point sparred once and it sucked. In kenpo we do continuos sparring  untill somebody callas break. In kick boxing we do 2min rounds full contact and I must say head kicks can and do work in these (predictable) enviroments.

 We all know it's a boat the question, is how to make it float. (or in this case keep it from floating) 


 With Respect.
     GRIM


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## Doc (Jul 10, 2005)

GRIM said:
			
		

> I must concur with most your points, however this thread was started with the intent to discuss different peoples experiences on defending head kicks. Obviously a sparring oriented qeustion.


According to you, a person needs to know what to do if they encounter a TKD experienced person on the street. 


> I whole heartedly agree that kicking to the head is, as you said an unnecessary gamble. The very same thing my instuctors say to me. In a self defense situation I personally would be very hard pressed to ever even think to throw one.


Than we agree more than we disagree.


> All the same if knocked to one knee and the opponent attempted to kick at your head the leg might move at much the same angle and use the same part of the leg for a weapon as a high kick. So your defense might be the same for this secnario as in a person throwing a high kick.


No not really.


> As much experience in the arts as you have, I'm sure you must have more than a few technical preferences when dealing with high kicks. Honestly I would more like to hear and discuss those that debate the practical application of the kick it's self.
> With respect,
> Grim


Well sir, the truth is no one has ever thrown a kick at my head while I was standing up unless I was sparring, so you got me there. A simple solution is to treat them like punches.


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## kenpoworks (Jul 10, 2005)

Hey Doc,
I was in (10 onto 2) cufuffle about 25yrs ago when the "china" I was with delivered a perfect and I mean perfect "jodan Mawashegeri" to the leader of the "pursuing" group, which gave us the time to render our escape.......does the fact that it happened such a long time ago invalidate it's worth or is it a case of right time, right place, right person ,right action?
I will relate the full story to you "old boy" the next time our paths cross.
With Respect 
Richard.


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## Doc (Jul 10, 2005)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Hey Doc,
> I was in (10 onto 2) cufuffle about 25yrs ago when the "china" I was with delivered a perfect and I mean perfect "jodan Mawashegeri" to the leader of the "pursuing" group, which gave us the time to render our escape.......does the fact that it happened such a long time ago invalidate it's worth or is it a case of right time, right place, right person ,right action?
> I will relate the full story to you "old boy" the next time our paths cross.
> With Respect
> Richard.


People get struck by lightening too, but I don't train for it.


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## kenpoworks (Jul 10, 2005)

Whoaa...Ha Ha Ha Ha..............thanks for putting that one to bed....no more Jodan Mawash training for me....my hip, knee, and ankle joints thank you.
Richard


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