# A question on weapons...



## Bob Hubbard (Feb 25, 2002)

I've seen alot of the "kung fu" theater movies, and noticed that the long spear/knife blade tends to 'flutter', ie is flexible.  I thought that was just the cheep-movie tricks, but then I saw a video that had some monks training..they also used a flexible blade.

My question is, is that really the way the weapon is, or did I just see some tv prop?

:asian:


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## arnisador (Feb 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *My question is, is that really the way the weapon is, or did I just see some tv prop?*



It's not just a prop; many of these weapons are indeed flexible. I don't know why however.


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## disciple (Feb 26, 2002)

I don't know about long spear, but for sword, it needs to be flexible to be able to transfer the "chi" from the arm. If the sword is stiff, the "chi" might break the sword into pieces (for someone who has high level of chi). On the other hand, if the sword is too flexible it might not hold against other weapons.

salute
:asian:


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## Dronak (Feb 26, 2002)

My knowledge of weapons is even more limited than my knowledge of MA in general.    However, a while back our teacher did give us a short demonstration of a few basic moves with a spear.  I'm not sure if spear was included in your original question, but as I recall it was at least semi-flexible.  He did a move that was basically thrusting the spear forward, but I think rotating it as well, thus causing the point to sort of circle as it struck forward.  I think he did the same sort of move when pulling back the spear.  I believe he said that this type of motion is important because the opponent has a harder time judging where the spear tip is going to hit if it's wiggling around.  *shrug*  That's about all I can say right now.  It may not be much, but I hope it's of some help.


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## disciple (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dronak _
> * I think he did the same sort of move when pulling back the spear.  I believe he said that this type of motion is important because the opponent has a harder time judging where the spear tip is going to hit if it's wiggling around.  *shrug*  *


From what I know that is true. Also, while you rotate the spear, the read tassel or whatever you call it (the thing between the spear head and the staff, usually red) will distract the enemy as it opens up and closes.

salute
:asian:


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## Dronak (Feb 27, 2002)

disciple, I think you're right about the tassel.  I kind of forgot about that.  Rotating the spear not only makes the spear tip circle around, but causes that tassel to flip around, too.  That can provide an extra distraction and help in breaking the opponent's concentration.


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## TLH3rdDan (Mar 1, 2002)

in general most tempered blades are flexible otherwise they would bend or break... some are less flexible than others... in gereral most tempered blades can be bent 30 to 90 degrees and return to true... as for the spear being flexible that would depend on what the shaft is made of if it is ratan then yes it would bend and be very flexible and keep it from breaking... but if it is made of a hard wood it will not bend at all... hope this helps


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 1, 2002)

It does, thank you. 

Was rattan commonly used in the making of Chinese weapons?


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## TLH3rdDan (Mar 1, 2002)

yes rattan was used as well as bamboo and some used hard wood for things like the monks spade and tridents ussually you only see rattan or bamboo used when the weapon needs to be ultra fast and flexible like simple spears


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## Chiduce (Apr 2, 2002)

To quote my sifu; "The chi is transfered into the tip of the sword and extended into the opponent". Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## disciple (Apr 3, 2002)

That's exactly what my shifu always says  

salute

:asian:


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## Dronak (Apr 10, 2002)

This may be shifting the topic a bit, but our teacher was talking about weapons recently because we're going to start some training with them in the summer.  (I've said before we're pushing fast.)  IIRC, he said that the spear and straight sword were the two primary weapons, if you want to call it that.  I think he said the spear is *the* big one because nearly every form is weapon X vs. spear.  I think he said or implied that other weapons have some features or cahracteristcs borrowed from the spear and that's why everyone wants to be able to defend against a spear -- if you can beat that, you should be able to beat other weapons as well.  I think he had straight sword in there because it was kind of the same for the bladed weapons.  *shrug*  Our teacher hasn't said a whole lot about weapons yet, but I'm sure we'll be hearing more later.  I just thought I'd toss this out for others with more knowledge on weapons -- are there certain weapons that form the basic foundation of the study (which ones?) and is it because other weapons borrow things from them?


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## Goldendragon7 (May 8, 2002)

Kaith refers to is probably known as   "waxwood"  the flexibility is due to the "live" natural feeling of the wood.   It is as smooth and "waxlike" surface with knots prominent in the wood.  

In the case of the spear..... the "Red Tassel" has a distinct purpose and many reasons for use...... 

first, the "tassel" is made of horse hair.  It was not Red in the beginning but the natural color of the horsehair itself.  The knot of the hair should be larger than the widest width of the spear tip to prevent the spear from going totally up the shaft to your hands.  As the spear was used in Combat the hair became red due to the blood that was shed.  Also the knot and hair helped keep the blood from running down the shaft to make it slippery and hard to handle in use.  Today the hair is Red as a reminder of the bloodshed that once was caused by the weapon in combat.

The "flexible" staff is alive with use..... it teaches you to  transfer you chi down thru the staff and not just be dead like oak.  it also has an interesting use when inserted into flesh as a "spring loaded" weapon with some residual force built in.  It is also useful when double blocking to "rebound" back into the next block  utilizing force from the prior block or strike.

Hope that added a little to the cerebral bank....
:asian:


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## arnisador (May 8, 2002)

In Ancient Chinese Weapons: A Martial Artist's Guide, Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming states of the spear that:



> Moreover, horsetail tassels were added to serve two functions. First, they distracted the enemy. Second, and more importantly, they stopped the flow of blood from the blade to the handle after killing the enemy. Therefore, it was called the "blood stopper".... This was crucial because the stickiness of blood on the handle would affect sliding techniques and would render other techniques more dangerous to perform.



the pictures show these tassles in the first section of the spear, relatively near the blade. There are many pictures of swords with tassels at the end but I didn't see an explanation of their use.


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## theneuhauser (May 31, 2002)

there is a tassel on the end of the straight sword for which i can give a couple of explanations.
in practice the tassel allows someone to fine tune their slicing and stabbing motions. if the tassel jerks around or ends up wrapping around your wrist, then you should use more wrist and less arm motion, or change the pattern of your circular slices.

also, if youve ever seen the long tassle sword, the tassel was actually used for combat-its long and has a little more weight, so the effect when the sword is manipulated correctly was distracting, it would actually appear as if the tassel would hit you.
tricky stuff


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## Hu Ren Qianzai Long (Jun 17, 2002)

The flexes all depend on the style of martial art. I bet that the faster the art is, the mor flex it has.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 17, 2002)

The flexible blades help to show the transfer of chi through the sword of spear however in early times this type of weapon was not available.  Strong blades (sword and spear) were originally used in true combat.  Today, with the demonstrations that are shown and the technology available we can now "show" chi to some degree when it was never possible before...

:asian:


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## arnisador (Jun 17, 2002)

Interesting! Can you say more about this?


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 17, 2002)

Most of the early weapons were tools or weapons designed for war which  at that time period..... the "spring steel" weapons that we are speaking of were not invented yet.  Strong swords, spears, quando's,  wolf teeth mace, axe's, tiger forks, etc were used to farm or fight with.

The flexible weapons (spring steel) are a recent product of the last 20 years.

Wu Shu was who introduced the weapons I believe in or around, 1979 or early 80's here in the state.

the ability to make the sword or spear "shimmy" teaches about chi flow much like using the wax wood "bouncing" at the end of a strike.... sending the persons force all the way down to the end of the weapon........

:asian:


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## Dronak (Jun 18, 2002)

Wow, that is pretty interesting.  Not like I'm any fountain of knowledge on the subject, but I hadn't heard about that.  I've heard the general concept that a weapon should act like an extension of your body, not something foreign to it.  Also the idea that you should be able to direct your chi flow into and all the way through the weapon.  I guess you're right, Goldendragon7, but it might depend on what you consider chi and/or a demonstration of it.  You say, "much like using the wax wood 'bouncing' at the end of a strike".  I'm guessing you mean for a staff.  The staffs we bought are all white wax wood.  We have a few basic strike actions we're supposed to practice (and are in the form some of us are learning) and I can sometimes get that action, the tip bouncing at the end.  I don't get it all the time, so I probably need work on it.  (Big surprise, huh?   )  I saw that almost as more of a recoil effect though -- because I've used my waist to turn the staff and get more power into the strike, when I stop the staff on the strike, there's too much momentum to just make the staff freeze, so the tip wiggles in response.  Since I'm holding most of the staff still with the position of my hands on it, the only part that really can reverberate from the strike is the end of it.  I never really thought of that as a sort of demonstration of chi flow.  I can certainly see it as a demonstration of transmitting force/power to the end of the weapon though.  Perhaps under some definitions the two are the same thing.


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## ZenYuchia (Oct 24, 2002)

"be supple, yet strong"

-dave


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## Taiji fan (Nov 15, 2002)

The Taiji sword is flexible as part of its usage.  Only the top 3rd is very sharp and used for swift slicing movements with the bottom third of the sword thicker and blunter and able to block.  If you used the tip to block it would break.  The flexibility is to that the sword can be used to cut the opponant through the armour (not the knights of old England type armour, but the leather petal style stuff if you press the sword hard enough against the opponant the sword will bend and can slide up between the gaps.)  The sword should be able to stand its own weight on the tip but still be flexible to bend  and then return to shape.  Many of the modern cheaper weapons are made of lightweight aluminium which is much  more flexible and fine for shows but not really for application.


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## yilisifu (Nov 30, 2002)

It is also well to bear in mind that practicioners of contemporary wushu, which combined Chinese martial art technique with gymnastics, use VERY lightweight and highly flexible weapons.  This is because their gymnastic routines would not allow them to handle the heavier, more traditional weapons.

   The monks to which you refer actually use modern wushu-type weapons because much of what they do actually IS wushu as opposed to old, traditional forms.  I have seen these "monks" in demonstration and it was several kliks below pitiful.  They have no technique, their qigong demonstrations were no more than cheap tricks, and they are no more Buddhist monks than I'm a Catholic nun!

   Goldendragon7 is quite correct about the spear's tassle.  It is not used to distract; it was used to prevent blood from running down the shaft and making it slippery.

   However, I will say that qi will NOT cause a "hard" blade to break.  

   A good blade, correctly made, is not brittle, nor is it overly-flexible (such as we see with wushu type blades).  It has a strong blade which is very slightly flexible (in the case of the Jien; the double-edged straight sword).  This flexibility has nothing to do with demonstrating qi; it has to do with making the blade strong enough to cut and thrust but flexible enough to withstand a blow from an opponent's weapon.


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## ekkaia (Jan 12, 2003)

i thought it would be obvious that the reason why the swords are so flexible is because the contemp wushu forms are so acrobatic orientated, that the weight of a real sword would hinder the performance. the swords used in those routines are extremely flimsy and may as well be made out of cellophane paper. even a 10 year old kid could make it shake like mad. i highly doubt chi transmission has anything to do with it... personally flimsy shaky 'blades' aren't very attractive to watch, but it's too much a norm these days. there are even standardized weight for blades in wushu comps.


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## yilisifu (Jan 12, 2003)

Ekkaia is correct.  REAL Chinese swords don't flutter.  Spear shafts ARE somewhat flexible, but not near-elastic like the wushu types.  The Staff should be made of hardwood rather than overly-flexible waxwood which is what wushu stylists use.

   Wushu uses a lot of gymnastic maneuvers, so they need to use very lightweight weapons.  What they do is NOT real Chinese martial arts; it is a mixture of gymnastics and martial arts intended for spectator appeal and nothing more.


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