# The stance, Gee Kim Yeung Ma



## Xue Sheng (Aug 27, 2020)

I can't do it.

After discussions with the person I will be training with (and I will be asking him this too), ad repeated looks in the mirror, I realized there is absolutely no way I will ever be able to get into anything close to a proper Gee Kim Yeung Ma

Really, I cannot physically get into this stance. Arthritis in the hips, knees, and prior knee surgeries make is physically impossible for me to get into this stance. It was hard years ago, due to my hips being angled further back than they should be. But now, it is impossible. 

How much of an obstacle is this, if you want to pursue Wing Chun


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## wckf92 (Aug 27, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> I can't do it.
> 
> After discussions with the person I will be training with (and I will be asking him this too), ad repeated looks in the mirror, I realized there is absolutely no way I will ever be able to get into anything close to a proper Gee Kim Yeung Ma
> 
> ...


 
"Proper" is subjective. For example, the stance pic you posted is NOT a proper horse IME. My horse is much more "anatomically correct", and easier on my knees and hips. So my reply to your question is...it is no obstacle at all. My suggestion FWIW is make minor tweaks to the level, angle, etc etc of your horse until you are able to train in it for a bit. 
Good post!


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## hunschuld (Aug 27, 2020)

None,because the stance you are showing is incorrect. Ouch! I know most others will disagree!  I am not trying to be difficult.

You do not squeeze your thighs together .You do not push your knees close as if holding a tennis ball.

This is a mis  interpenetration of the original stance work.

Leung Jan was a practitioner of Chinese medicine. This type of stance chokes the meridians in the leg. Logic alone says it is not what a person knowledgeable in medicine would do.

No squeezing just let the legs fall into natural position. Knees don't squeeze they will naturally get closer as  your energy intent forms the third leg.

Don't lock the hips. they remain loose to transfer energy up and out or down and in. You need loose hips to properly receive and maintain your position. Some have adopted a wider stance to accomplish this but that also has limitations.


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## yak sao (Aug 27, 2020)

The pic you posted is definitely not the stance I was taught.


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## Danny T (Aug 27, 2020)

I'm with wckf92. Your stance should be natural to your body.
The knees follow the toes for the most part. Having the feet turned inward slightly and bending the knees naturally the legs naturally move inward. Can you stand with the outside of your feet pointed straight forward? This will have the inside of the feet pointed at an angle that is more natural and when bending the knee naturally they will move forward and inward. Just as they should. There is no need to 'pull' the thighs inward. It happens naturally. Pulling the thighs inward causes unnatural pressure and stress on the sides of the knees and is just plain wrong.
Take the curve out of the lower spine that is all. Thrusting the hips forward is not correct but a slight rolling of the pelvis under the body if possible to straighten the spine. If you are unable to do that then assure your hips are such that your weight is such that there is the same amount of pressure on your big toe as on your heel. As you sink into this stance note which leg muscles are being utilized. Now without changing anything as to tension in your legs or feet try to come up out of your stance. Don't release any natural tension in the legs or pelvic area or your feet. If done properly you will find your structure wants to remain.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 27, 2020)

yak sao said:


> The pic you posted is definitely not the stance I was taught.



I can't turn my toes in that much either.


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## geezer (Aug 27, 2020)

Whether or not your physical limitations prevent you from being able to practice effective Wing Chun has as much to do with your teacher, his concept of WC, and his teaching style as with the limitations imposed by your arthritic hips.

Some instructors have a far more debilitating condition than your hips. I call it _mental arthritis._ And it prevents them from helping atypical students who may not be able to execute the classical "ideal" of the art from adapting and succeeding with what abilities they have. 

Talk to your instructor, and hopefully he is not like that ...and please let us know how this unfolds.


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## yak sao (Aug 27, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> I can't turn my toes in that much either.



Look at it as more of a guideline.
The goal is to be stable yet maneuverable.
Imagine how you would stand and move while standing up in the back of a moving truck or on a boat.


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## wckf92 (Aug 27, 2020)

Something else to ponder on Xue... a lot of WC folks call it the "goat riding stance"; and yet, one rides a horse, not a goat. 
Funny story: many moons ago, and many years before I even knew what WC was...as a farm kid one of my jobs was to burn down the horns on the goats every now and then. So, I'm probably one of the few who has ever actually "pinched a goat" between my legs. hahaha. Years later, as a WC'er...I remembered that experience of restraining the goat and then compared it to my actual horse and they are nothing alike.


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## APL76 (Aug 27, 2020)

It is unsurprising (to a degree) that people with a Yip Man wing chun background would tell you that the stance you pictured is wrong however it’s the classical wing chun stance, more or less.

And as for anyone with an understanding of Chinese medicine not recommending it, I am positive Sum Nung would disagree with that were he alive to hear it. He was more widely known as a Dr of Chinese medicine than he was for wing chun back in the day; and, as I have heard him explain with my own ears, if done correctly, it doesn’t close off any meridians or chi flow but opens them up. But, then I’m not a Dr in Chinese medicine. My sifu is (and he has never said anything about it closing off meridians either) but I’m not.

In terms of how you might achieve it….. with knee injuries it is doable, with arthritis? I don’t know.

To do the stance in something like the way it’s represented in the picture is a fairly long-term prospect. In Sum Nung wing chun I’d say for most men, even without carrying injuries, one could anticipate something to the order of 5 years of training to get it, that’s about what it took me as a youngster, working with two knee injuries. One knee was twisted, the not so bad injury, the other was kicked sideways to almost 90 degrees. I used to train 5 or 6 days a week so I did train quite a bit. Women tend to get the stance quicker and easier in my experience.

The way I teach the stance is that of course most people won’t be able to get even close to the correct structure at first; and it will feel very awkward and unnatural for a good while. It is something that takes time. A first you can’t sink down, you can’t get your knees in, you can’t get your hips forwards. Chances are you’ll tilt backwards, or alternatively you’ll slouch, perhaps even both, and you will have next to no stamina. So, it will be all wacky and out of shape and balance. But, provided you are taught by someone who knows not only how to do it correctly, but also how to teach it properly (two very different things in my opinion) they will keep you heading in the right direction. And that’s something to remember- it’s better to think of heading in the right direction or not, rather than thinking of it as doing it correctly or incorrectly.

What I teach is that a person should try to sink into it but constantly listen to what their joints are telling them. If there is any discomfort, much less pain, in any joints, particularly the knees and ankles, you should come up out of the stance. One should start off doing short but good quality (in terms of structure) sessions, and gradually increase the lengths of time one holds the stance. Keep in mind listening to the joints but try to push the time frame. Within this, keep in mind also that the muscles will develop strength and endurance faster than the joints develop to hold it. It is at this stage that your risk of overloading the joints can go up if you are determined to force through the discomfort to train harder. This is a mistake I made. I didn’t listen to my sifu when he kept reminding me to protect the joints (I was young and stupid, typical young guy thinking I could muscle my way through discomfort and pain- I couldn’t). Once I learned my lesson the hard way, I went almost back to square one and re-built it, this time actually listening to my sifu, and my joints.

After about 5 years I could sink down, knees in, toes in, hips forward and hold it for 2 hours easily. And what’s more, my knee injuries, one of which was so severe I could grab my ankle and wiggle my lower leg back and forth left to right to gross people out, seemed to recover. My knees hardly even ache any more after all these years. I certainly can’t wiggle my leg around like I used to, so it has definitely stabilised and strengthened. So, with knee injuries, my suspicion is that you would be able to do it. It might take longer, but provided you are careful, and you would have to be more careful than most people, and know what you are doing (learning from someone who knows what they are doing) it’s achievable. With the arthritis I don’t know however and can’t, therefore, comment on that.


As far as doing wing chun without being able to do the stance. Well that’s relative. Compared to someone who has an awesome stance, certainly then you would be at a disadvantage and have to find a strength you could cover deficiencies in your stance with. But if you can do it and get a fair bit of stability then why not? My sifu used to teach a guy who lost a leg (he had it run over by a tank) he was in his 50s when he started learning and he was great at wing chun; not so mobile, but he was rock solid on the one leg he had and his prosthetic.

Go for it.


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## geezer (Aug 28, 2020)

APL76 said:


> It is unsurprising (to a degree) that people with a *Yip Man wing chun* background would tell you that the stance you pictured is wrong however it’s the classical wing chun stance, more or less.



Nah. You got _this_ part mixed up. Hunter or "Hunschuld" was the guy that said the stance pictured was _wrong_. And, if I'm correct his _primary _lineage... the one he trains most deeply, in_* not*_ in the Yip Man lineage ...although he _previously_ trained Yip Man WC.  

Other than that, the drawing above, though imperfect, is pretty much representative of what I've seen in a lot of Yip Man Wing Chun, including my own lineage. The feet are a little wide ...or perhaps the figure's shoulders are too narrow? Oh, and tilting your head back to stick out your chin and expose your throat is kinda dumb... but now I'm just nit-picking. It's just a diagram after all.

As for the rest of what you said, ...yeah, I agree!


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## wckf92 (Aug 28, 2020)

I think everything is a matter of degrees. I know of only one of Yip Man's 1st gen students who advocated for the "knock knee'd" stance and if I'm not mistaken it was Leung Sheung. Fist-width apart at the knees. OUCH!!!


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## hunschuld (Aug 28, 2020)

I apologize for saying" incorrect". There are versions of wing chun that don't have ties to Leung Jan and they may do things differently.  When I learned the Sum Nung Hei Gung it was explained to me that it was added training to help balance the negative effects of the stance he used. No clue if this is true or not just what one of his students told me.

For me wing chun is an internal art. That means that you focus on the proper use of the skeleton  structure and use of tendons versus focusing on the use of the muscles. When aligned properly the skeleton and tendons provide outstanding strength ,power balance and mobility. The body should always be used in a very natural way, meaning movement should never be in a direction opposed by the joints or forced in any way. You never want to choke the flow of energy along your meridians etc.

I trained with many students of Yip man and many of their students also had exposure to many non Yip Man versions. Not everything of equal depth.

All I can say is that when Chao Ng Kwai 'fixed my wing chun" the changes were immediately noticeable. Friends and fellow students that had been my same skill level could not touch me literately the day after I learned how to use my body. The change was that profound. My golf handicap dropped from 14 to 8  once I started using the wing  chun stance I was taught. My dead lift,military press ,clean and jerk and snatch max weight all took a very noticeable jump up. All once I started to apply the proper wing chun body usage to these actions.

This makes sense because at the core these athletic activities are the same. Power comes up from the lower body is transmitted through the hips to the upper body along the spine and then your arms are whips or wire and the power is transmitted out through the hands. If you look at it from muscles. Your largest and most powerful muscles are in your lower body and again your hips and waist are the method of conducting this power up and out through your arms. In boxing knockouts usually comes not from arm power but from good use of the lower body

Again if you understand football offensive line technique the use of the hips is paramount. The difference between a pro and a college player that doesn't make it is usually traceable to footwork<stance> and hip usage. As a human there is a best way to maximize your body and you can see it because the usage crosses all athletic endeavors.

This doesn't mean you cant make something else work but usually the people that use different stances or different power methods successfully are great natural athletes and the methods and effectiveness do not translate to the average person.At least that has been my experience.


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## geezer (Aug 28, 2020)

wckf92 said:


> I think everything is a matter of degrees. I know of only one of Yip Man's 1st gen students who advocated for the "knock knee'd" stance and if I'm not mistaken it was Leung Sheung. Fist-width apart at the knees. OUCH!!!



I learned something similar, if a little less severe in my brief exposure to the Augusting Fong branch in the late 70s, coming from Yip Man via Ho Kam Ming to Fong Sifu. 

Then I studied Leung Ting's WT, and although his stance has some unique attributes, it is also "pidgeon toed" at 60 degrees and characterized by strong adduction or squeezing of the thighs which bring the knees close together. Of course Leung Ting's tutelage under Yip Man was short and late, and early on his first Sifu was Leung Sheung ....so there's the connection.

The problem for me is that I have a bone deformity in my ankles that prevents lateral movement and also causes them to point outward like a duck. So when my knees are adducted to the traditional 60 degree angle, my feet are still almost parallel as in a "square- stance" or narrow horse. But as the condition cannot be corrected, I have just learned to adapt. It is what it is, as they say.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 28, 2020)

wckf92 said:


> I think everything is a matter of degrees. I know of only one of Yip Man's 1st gen students who advocated for the "knock knee'd" stance and if I'm not mistaken it was Leung Sheung. Fist-width apart at the knees. OUCH!!!



Well that's discouraging The teacher I am dealing with is in the 
Leung Sheung lineage. Could be why he recommended being able to hold a softball between your knees....which I can tell you, with my knees and hips, it ain't gonna happen



geezer said:


> I learned something similar, if a little less severe in my brief exposure to the Augusting Fong branch in the late 70s, coming from Yip Man via Ho Kam Ming to Fong Sifu.
> 
> Then I studied Leung Ting's WT, and although his stance has some unique attributes, it is also "pidgeon toed" at 60 degrees and characterized by strong adduction or squeezing of the thighs which bring the knees close together. Of course Leung Ting's tutelage under Yip Man was short and late, and early on his first Sifu was Leung Sheung ....so there's the connection.
> 
> The problem for me is that I have a bone deformity in my ankles that prevents lateral movement and also causes them to point outward like a duck. So when my knees are adducted to the traditional 60 degree angle, my feet are still almost parallel as in a "square- stance" or narrow horse. But as the condition cannot be corrected, I have just learned to adapt. It is what it is, as they say.



interesting connection, the teacher I am dealing with, currently from a distance, started with Augustine Fong but is now in the Leung Sheung lineage.....


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## wckf92 (Aug 28, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> to hold a softball between your knees



Yup...the one I met briefly once...asked me to hold a small block of wood. Wasn't happenin!


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 28, 2020)

wckf92 said:


> Yup...the one I met briefly once...asked me to hold a small block of wood. Wasn't happenin!



Just had a conversation with he teacher, and without physically being there I don't think it is clear as to the issue. I did get great advice as to how to relax into the stance, but it is not a relaxation issue, it is, and I hate to say this, a physical limitation issue. My hips can't rotate that far, and too compensate I end up twisting my knees and that is bad, very bad, especially after the knee surgeries.


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## geezer (Aug 28, 2020)

Softball ain't happenin'? Get a basketball. And if that don't work, go full beach-ball! 


..What's the purpose of any stance or structure? To optimize your performance. 

So ...If the_ usual_ approach ain't optimal, you're gonna have to try _"unusual"_. WC is supposed to be about effectiveness, not conformity. Heck, originally coming from Kempo, the first time I saw WC ....._unusual_ was the first thought that came to mind.


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## Danny T (Aug 28, 2020)

My sifu has always stressed practicality and efficiency for the individual.


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## geezer (Aug 28, 2020)

wckf92 ...Now for something completely random: Take the following image and photoshop _baat cham dao_ in for the pistols.....


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## APL76 (Aug 28, 2020)

geezer said:


> Nah. You got _this_ part mixed up. Hunter or "Hunschuld" was the guy that said the stance pictured was _wrong_. And, if I'm correct his _primary _lineage... the one he trains most deeply, in_* not*_ in the Yip Man lineage ...although he _previously_ trained Yip Man WC.
> 
> Other than that, the drawing above, though imperfect, is pretty much representative of what I've seen in a lot of Yip Man Wing Chun, including my own lineage. The feet are a little wide ...or perhaps the figure's shoulders are too narrow? Oh, and tilting your head back to stick out your chin and expose your throat is kinda dumb... but now I'm just nit-picking. It's just a diagram after all.
> 
> As for the rest of what you said, ...yeah, I agree!



I wasn't meaning to suggest that anyone _here_ who is a Yip Man person were all saying it's wrong; rather noting that given that for the majority of Yip Man wing chun, which is from his Hong Kong era, and which forms the overwhelming majority of wing chun taught around the world, they typically see sinking down in the stance with the knees in as wrong. Therefore it would be unsurprising to get that sort of feedback. I should have been clearer.


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## APL76 (Aug 28, 2020)

"Sum Nung Hei Gung it was explained to me that it was added training to help balance the negative effects of the stance he used". 

While I hesitate to contradict what you were told when you learned the breathing exercises since I, of course, don't know everything, I can tell you with 100% certainty that: 

1) (from what I have heard him say, and then translated into English by one of my si hings) Sum Nung said that when you do the stance properly, particularly with the hips tilted forwards properly, it aligns things between the soles of the feet, through the legs to the hips as to encourage the flow of chi and is recommended for general good health. My own sifu, also a Chinese medicine Dr who learned wing chun from Sum Nung though he didn't learn Chinese medicine from him, also stresses that training the stance properly (and good foundation training in general) trains and strengthens the legs and particularly the feet which is recommended for general health and longevity; incidentally, training the breathing exercises properly builds on this in training the legs and feet. 

2) What Sum Nung taught my sifu, who then teaches me, re the breathing exercises is that when you train hard you expend chi. (Now I'm repeating this as I understand it from my sifu and I'm no Chinese medicine Dr) There are two primary types of chi, what you are born with and what you can ??? Cultivate? through things like chi gung. If you use-up the chi you were born with you die. Unfortunately when you train hard you use-up chi, so, if you train hard and draw on the chi that you can top-up through chi gung, you never use-up the finite chi you were born with. It is the chi that you can top-up, kidney chi if I'm not mistaken, that you strengthen through the breathing exercises. Anyway, that's my undoubtedly over simplistic explanation of what I was told. In 23 years I have never heard my sifu say that the breathing is to compensate for ill effects of the stance but ALWAYS co compensate for the chi expended when you train hard irrespective of the type of training. 

Sum Nung wing chun is explicitly internal and external, we see that you need to be extremely relaxed and everything needs to be natural and fluid however it also requires quite tight structure. This means that you need to contort your body into some pretty difficult shapes to get, and in addition to that, also make them completely relaxed at the same time. On top of all that you need to make them natural and automatic. It all does become completely natural to do but it takes a hell of a lot more training than Yip Man wing chun. All of that is why I generally teach Yip Man wing chun to anyone who comes along and keep the Sum Nung stuff for people who have the dedication and endurance to do it.


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## APL76 (Aug 28, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just had a conversation with he teacher, and without physically being there I don't think it is clear as to the issue. I did get great advice as to how to relax into the stance, but it is not a relaxation issue, it is, and I hate to say this, a physical limitation issue. My hips can't rotate that far, and too compensate I end up twisting my knees and that is bad, very bad, especially after the knee surgeries.



Pan Nam did something that looked more like horse stance than a wing chun stance. 

My sifu showed me a book of Pan Nam wing chun that Pan Nam gave him. In it there are photos of Pan Nam doing his horse stance looking wing chun stance and I pointed at it and said to my sifu "That's not a wing chun stance". My sifu laughed at me and said "Are you going to go and tell him that that's not wing chun? Lots of people have tried and gotten beaten". Point being, if you can get a bit of stability and cover lack of mobility in other ways you can still be good at wing chun. Pan Nam was the big name wing chun fighter in Fat San at one stage, he didn't even do what we would call a typical wing chun stance.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 28, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


>


Do you realize that the WC stance is the stance that most wrestlers love to apply their "double legs" on?

You want to bend your legs inward, Your wrestler opponent will help you to bend your legs inward a bit more than you really want to.

So why use that stance and give your wrestler opponent an advantage?


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## APL76 (Aug 28, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you realize that the WC stance is the stance that most wrestlers love to apply their "double legs" on?
> 
> You want to bend your legs inward, Your wrestler opponent will help you to bend your legs inward a bit more than you really want to.
> 
> So why use that stance and give your wrestler opponent an advantage?



If you stand around like that so that a wrestler can grab you by the legs you a) are using it incorrectly and as such 2) probably deserve it.


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## _Simon_ (Aug 29, 2020)

Wow, fascinating stance! Our Sanchin dachi/stance was similar, both feet pointing inwards, knees bent a bit, but one foot in front. Yeah not sure about it really.. the emphasised internal hip rotation and pressure on the knees..

But I guess if the muscles supporting the knees and hips are properly engaged and keeping the structure in place (as opposed to it collapsing in and the joints bearing the load) and also that it's not trained excessively... but not sure!

Also modify according to your body and where it's at 

P.s. another non-wing chun guy infiltrating!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 29, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Our Sanchin dachi/stance was similar, both feet pointing inwards, knees bent a bit, but one foot in front.


From a wrestler's point of view, do not let your opponent's hand (or leg) to reach to your back leg is important. In order to do so, your back foot need to keep some distance from your front foot.

Of course if you use wide side way stance, your opponent can still get your leading leg. But there are many effective counters to deal with single leg.

We are talking about logic here. It has nothing to do with style.


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## wckf92 (Aug 29, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We are talking about logic here.



As Spock would say..."logic states, we are not going to just stand there in a knock-kneed *TRAINING* stance as the mean wrestler approaches".


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## obi_juan_salami (Aug 31, 2020)

wckf92 said:


> I think everything is a matter of degrees. I know of only one of Yip Man's 1st gen students who advocated for the "knock knee'd" stance and if I'm not mistaken it was Leung Sheung. Fist-width apart at the knees. OUCH!!!


i think the view that the stance is "knocked kneed" is a steryotype started by people only watching it rather than practicing or just general incorrect practice. doing the stance knock kneed WOULD be horrible for your health. knock kneed being that your knees are forced in sideways or not being the direction the toes are pointing. a correct (by our standards) yee jee kim yeung ma should have the knees bent and sunk down quite low. the toes point in so that the deep bend in the knees is a natural like it would be for running or walking. to do it like this you need to develop flexibility in the hips and strength in the legs, all of which is gain by doing the stance itself. this results in stronger knees rather than injured or deformed ones and faster footwork.


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## obi_juan_salami (Aug 31, 2020)

the knees do come under pressure and its up to the prqctitioner to manage that through the duration you practice it and how deep you sink. but its through that pressure over time the ligaments, tendons and muscles are strengthened.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 31, 2020)

The YJKYM is to use your shin bone to bite into your opponent's leg. But I have not seen many WC guys use "shin bite" it in fighting. If you don't use YJKYM in fighting, why do you train it?


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## obi_juan_salami (Aug 31, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The YJKYM is to use your shin bone to bite into your opponent's leg. But I have not seen many WC guys use "shin bite" it in fighting. If you don't use YJKYM in fighting, why do you train it?


we do use it in fighting in many different ways 'shin bite' being one of them. just because its not on the net or you havnt seen it doesnt necessarily mean it doesnt exist


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> I can't do it.
> 
> After discussions with the person I will be training with (and I will be asking him this too), ad repeated looks in the mirror, I realized there is absolutely no way I will ever be able to get into anything close to a proper Gee Kim Yeung Ma
> 
> ...


my thoughts on Kung Fu in general is that stances have various degrees of play in them.  Different heights, different widths.  But they all maintain similar structure and weight distribution, or maybe more accurately similar methods for directing your weight.  So regardless of what my stance is, I'm still trying to direct my weight to the same structural points so that it's distributed in my feet the same way.  In other words my legs may change but how the weight sinks at my feet stays the same.

In terms of stance in this sense I think it's more about how we direct the weight into our feet than anything else.  Even when I stand like a normal person, I can feel my body shift weight, cat, horse, goat, or bow stances.  I would be surprised if your teacher wouldn't allow any flexibility in this area.

If this stance was locked in stone then people would be forced to fight in it, never to leave it.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> From a wrestler's point of view, do not let your opponent's hand (or leg) to reach to your back leg is important. In order to do so, your back foot need to keep some distance from your front foot.


yep.  you and must be brothers in a different life time.  You are 100% accurate with this.  From the point of body mechanics a person can only retreat as far as the rear foot (without jumping).  If that rear foot is in the line of fire then you are in trouble.   If anything should be in the safe zone, it should be that rear foot..

I specifically attack the rear lead because of this truth. So many people are willing to put that rear leg in the danger zone.


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## hunschuld (Sep 19, 2020)

Sorry for the delay.

if everyone is saying the stance should be natural then I have no problems.

My point is there is not 'Natural' for wing chun and then natural for everything else.

The most important meridians flow on the inside of the legs. Doing an action that voluntarily inhibits the chi flow along these meridians would be considered a problem to be addressed.

Many versions of wing chun use a square or squarish horse stance. Pan Nam is not alone. You see this is Cho family style,Pao Fa Lien, Kulo and others. Knee squeezing tends to be a Foshan thing

Mobility and keeping your legs from being easily swept are two very important things

Generalizations about Yip Man Wing chun should not be made. He taught many variations. Leung Sheung is different than Wong Shun Leung and he is different than Chu Shong Tin and he is different than Ho Kam Ming and he is different than Yip Ching and he is different that Yip Chun and he is different than Leung Ting  and on it goes.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 19, 2020)

hunschuld said:


> Mobility and keeping your legs from being easily swept are two very important things.


- The inward foot turning can expose your heel to be swept. Your opponent's foot can reach to your heel.






- The outward foot turning can counter the foot sweep. Your opponent's foot cannot reach to your heel.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 19, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - The inward foot turning can expose your heel to be swept. Your opponent's foot can reach to your heel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For me, forget that you have legs and I will take them, sweep or hook, they will be mine.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> For me, forget that you have legs and I will take them, sweep or hook, they will be mine.


If your feet are

- parallel, I will need to move my back foot side way before I can sweep you.
- inward, I can sweep your heel without moving my back leg side way.
- outward, even if I move my back foot side way, my back foot still cannot reach to your heel.

Anything that you do can be easier for your opponent is bad for yourself.


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## Callen (Sep 19, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The inward foot turning can expose your heel to be swept. Your opponent's foot can reach to your heel.


Luckily Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma is not a fighting stance, so there's no real worry of being swept in this instance.


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## obi_juan_salami (Sep 19, 2020)

Callen said:


> Luckily Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma is not a fighting stance, so there's no real worry of being swept in this instance.


we use it in fighting.. i think the main misunderatanding here is a static stance being 'vulnerable'. yes if you dont move you will get swept/taken down. thats why there is foot work, speed/strength training, and heaven forbid techniques! any and every position has vulnerabilities, including this stance. its how diligently you have trained, how well you have prepared and how well you know the principles (so you dont find yourself in the wrong position at the wrong time) and of course the skill of your opponent vs your own that determines your success/defeat. 

if you stand still of course anything can happen to you.


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## Svarog (Sep 19, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> I can't do it.
> 
> After discussions with the person I will be training with (and I will be asking him this too), ad repeated looks in the mirror, I realized there is absolutely no way I will ever be able to get into anything close to a proper Gee Kim Yeung Ma
> 
> ...


 Proper stance means proper alignment of the skeleton in order to increase biomechanical efficiency of the body. " Proper stance" can be achieved in more than one way. Some styles and practitioners  insist in only one way of achieving proper body alignment or "structure" but that  definitely not the case. For your problem in particular I would recommend Snake Crane Wing Chun because the basic stance in that style is probably the friendliest to body, especially to legs and knees of all Wing Chun styles.  There is one other thing I would like to share. According to my teacher's research , originally Wing Chun stance was not referred as "Ma"       ( horse), that change came later when style left the red boats and stance significantly changed.


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## Callen (Sep 19, 2020)

obi_juan_salami said:


> we use it in fighting.. i think the main misunderatanding here is a static stance being 'vulnerable'. yes if you dont move you will get swept/taken down. thats why there is foot work, speed/strength training, and heaven forbid techniques! any and every position has vulnerabilities, including this stance. its how diligently you have trained, how well you have prepared and how well you know the principles (so you dont find yourself in the wrong position at the wrong time) and of course the skill of your opponent vs your own that determines your success/defeat.
> 
> if you stand still of course anything can happen to you.


Interesting. What is an example of how you use YJKYM in fighting, but in a non-static way?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 19, 2020)

Callen said:


> Interesting. What is an example of how you use YJKYM in fighting, but in a non-static way?


I also have problem to picture how one can stand in YJKYM and also remains not-static at the same time.


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## Callen (Sep 19, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be he mean to stand in YJKYM when one is far away from his opponent.


Yeah, maybe so.


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## Callen (Sep 19, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I also have problem to picture how one can stand in YJKYM and also remains not-static at the same time.


That's what I was curious about as well.


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## APL76 (Sep 20, 2020)

Callen said:


> That's what I was curious about as well.



What OBI_JUAN_SALAMI is talking about with YJKYM not being used statically is that we think of the stance as in motion and perhaps a way to think of YJKYM is as a "snapshot" of the stance frozen in a point in time. So the wing chun stance for us is the structure of YJKYM that is developed through the body, the power generation and movement created in Jun Ma, and the mobility provided by the stepping and leg movements from Chum Kue and Bui Ji. The other side of the "snapshot" of the stance is the Gok Ma, so the stance that in YM wing Chun we at least know as Chut San Bo. 

We say the YJKYM is used but not statically in the sense that you sink down, have the hips forwards, knees in, back straight and so on, all of which we do in YJKYM, all of it put into motion via the things I mentioned above. I'm not sure how clear that is, but I guess we could summarise it by saying that that we think of YJKYM more in terms of body structure than as a static position. It is a static position too, however, we don't use the structure in a static way.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 21, 2020)

Look at this, comparing squeezing a horse, or goat, or anything between your thighs.

How many of you are familiar with the fact that the Y in YGKYM is a reference to the G, "2".

二


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## APL76 (Sep 21, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Look at this, comparing squeezing a horse, or goat, or anything between your thighs.
> 
> How many of you are familiar with the fact that the Y in YGKYM is a reference to the G, "2".
> 
> 二


yep,


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## Danny T (Sep 21, 2020)

It more of an understanding on how to use what you have learned about and with the fundamental structure of the YJKYM stance in movement. Stance is but a fleeting endeavor. It is but an instance or a snap shot in time. One's movement should be balanced such that the stance is available for the moment in time it is required.


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## Highlander (Sep 22, 2020)

@Xue Sheng a very important distinction to be made (which I believe others have referred to) is that the picture shows the training stance (whether or not is a perfect stance can be debated) this isn't the fight stance however. This is a stance developed for training both legs at the same time. The stance you use in practice/fight should be, IMO, the 100 0 (80 20, 90 10, depends on your system)stance and this has A LOT of play as well has you get more adapted to the WC style of movement.


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