# caliber  difference between



## DAC..florida (Apr 5, 2003)

I'll get it started 9mm vs .45cal. or maybe .40cal.   ect.

All opinions are welcome!


:redeme:


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## Despairbear (Apr 5, 2003)

I think like any weapon it will depend on what you want to do with it. I assume you are talking abuot handguns, the magizine on a pre-ban 9mm auto is one of the best parts of that cal. also the acuracy of a 9mm is resonable for a handgun. Personaly I prefer a .45 cal. not quite as acurate nor as many rounds in the magizine but with a double stack 45 yo get close to the number of rounds and the wound channel of a 45 is far greater than that of a 9mm.



Despair Bear


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## A.R.K. (Apr 5, 2003)

As I've stated before, I have both the .45 and the 9mm.  I usually carry the .45 off duty and carry the issued 9mm on duty.  My personal 9mm usually stays at home as a house gun due to the hi-caps.

And as I've stated before, both are viable choices for self-defense.  As vialble as one can expect in a handgun caliber.  The 9mm is underated in my professional opinion and the .45 is overated as well.  I feel that the .45 with appropriate ammunition may be slightly better overall in wounding potential.  But you would have to make a direct comparision considering bullet weights and sectional density to judge accurately.  

Hitting a vital organ or CNS is the most reasonalble and reliable method to stop aggression, but one needs to remember that being shot in real life can differ dramatically from what has been ingrained into us by Hollywood.  In my professional opinion the priorities are as follows;

*Function*  A round has to function reliably in the pistol or everything else is a mute point.

*Penetration*  A round must have adequate penetration in order to hit something important i.e. vital organ/CNS.

*Accuracy [under stress]*  A round/shooter must be accurate under stress in order to deliver the maximum amount of rounds on target in the area that will produce the most damage and therefore [ideally] promoting the quickest incapacitation.

To me everything else is a distant fourth and beyond.  Things such as bullet type, velocity, energy etc are factors, but not in the same catagory as the above three.  The above three are neccesities everthing else is a nicety.  

There is a saying in the firearms world....It's not _hitting_  something that is important, it is _hitting_  something *important*  that is *important*  regardless of caliber, bullet type, velocity, energy etc.

Words to consider thoughtfully :asian:


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## Wmarden (Apr 6, 2003)

I prefer a .45, but can shoot either ok.  As it is right now the pistol I have on me is a 40S&W.  

I really want to get back into a witness 10mm.  

The 9mm is ok, but marginal on stopping power.  Of course all pistols are, some more than others.  Given my choice, I would prefer to carry a 10mm or .45.  But a 9mm is cheaper to shoot(factory ammo).


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## DAC..florida (Apr 6, 2003)

Personally I like my missle launcher tough to conceal though!:rofl: 

Seriously I love my 9mm, I own .40 and .45 both but Im much more comfortable with my 9mm! 




                                                                          :rockets:


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## redfive (Apr 6, 2003)

I traded in my 9mm for a 40cal. It has the speed of a 9, put has the stopping power of the 45. 9mm tend to travel to far and over penatrate. Most of all the law inforcement department in my area have gone to the 40s&w for these reasones. There have been alot of cases of wacked out drug heads being shot three and four times with a 9mm, and they keep on coming. the 9s go through them, but there is no body shock. A 45 will knock someone on there ***, as will the 40, but it  does not have as much foot pound force as the 45. I tried out the new SIG 357 round in a Glock, and it will be my next purchase. It is a hot little round.
  Just my preferance and oppinions
                       Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Apr 7, 2003)

I like my 9 but the problem with using it as a duty weapon is that 9's have been prown to go through people. I am getting a 45 soon. The nice thing about using a 45 is that it won't go through a person like a 9 will and also its got a kick when it hits the subject. Its like a mallet hitting him and just dropping him.

The only bad thing about a 45 is that with the 9 you have more rounds per magazine. But I know in my buddies Glock 45 he has a nice hi cap mag that works nice too. The Glock 45 is so sweet. It fits so nicely in your hand like a glove.

I have had a few associates get into some shoot outs and the 45 performed fantastic.

Chicago Green
Dragon   :asian:


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## A.R.K. (Apr 8, 2003)

If I may, I need to interject a few points here as an Instructor...



> the 9s go through them, but there is no body shock





> The nice thing about using a 45 is that it won't go through a person like a 9 will



Whether a round goes through an individual or not is a function of it's weight vs it's sectional density.  For example a 147 grain 9mm has the same weight to sectional density as a 230 grain .45 caliber bullet.  Both have the same likelyhood of similar penetration depth taking into accound similar bullet type [HP, FMJ,LWC etc] and and bullet path [bone,muscle etc].

No service handgun caliber has any 'body shock'.  Gun magazines created buzz words such as this and 'stopping power', 'knockdown power', 'one-stop-shot' etc to sell issues.  



> A 45 will knock someone on there ***



It is not possible for a handgun round to physically knock someone down.  If they fall down it is a psychological reaction not a physiological reaction.  A handgun's kinetic energy is measured usually in the hundreds of foot pounds.  A rifle on the other hand can be measured in the thousands of foot pounds and there are a multitude of case where people shot with a rifle caliber not only remain on their feet but continue the fight.

Think of it like this, someone sticks you with a pin...you will probably jump.  But the pin didn't MAKE you jump, it was your reaction to it.  Similarly many people have recieved numerous well placed hits with EVERY caliber and still remain on their feet and fighting.

The 9mm gets a bad rap because more people are shot with it than all other service calibers combined.  Therefore it will have more failures to stop that are publicized.  The ratio of failures is probably very similar with all the service calibers.

Some things to ponder...

:asian:


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## MartialArtist (Apr 17, 2003)

1911forum.com


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## Wmarden (Apr 17, 2003)

Just finished reading an interesting book about the founding of Us Special forces detachment Delta, otherwise known as Delta force.  In the early days they trained for double taps to the head even with the .45.  Lets you know what some serious thinkers and doers know of pistol stopping power.


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## Tigertron (Apr 19, 2003)

A 45 w/HydraShok.  One shot stop! No need for double tap to the chest plus one more head shot. (Yeah, good luck with that when you get awakened in the middle of the night with unknown number of intruders in your house.)

The FBI SWAT, the FBI HRT, the Counter Terror Special Forces-Detachment Delta, the US Marshall Special Operation Group, The US Special Operation COMMAND,  the LAPD SWAT "D" Platoon, all use the 45.   One hell of an endorsement, if you ask me.


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## MartialArtist (Apr 19, 2003)

A 45 is already bigger than an expanded 9mm...  Right now in Iraq, there are tons of reports on how the 9mm can't really stand up right now.  And mind you, these are VERY HOT 9mm NATO rounds designed specifically for the military.  The 5.56mm is also showing its problems but is here to stay.


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## A.R.K. (Apr 19, 2003)

> A 45 is already bigger than an expanded 9mm



Respectfully have to disagree with you on this point my friend.  An expanded 9mm can reach .70 caliber with certain loads, although .55 is more common.  Alot depends on what it hits and if it works.  

An expanded .45 can reach a full inch in some cases, but usually not in tissue.  .65-.75 seems to be fairly common...IF it works in tissue the same as test media.  And remember test media is consistant in density, living tissue is not i.e. lungs, bone etc.



> Right now in Iraq, there are tons of reports on how the 9mm can't really stand up right now.



Do you have a reference?  Why would there be tons of people shot with a 9mm pistol on a battlefield?  And remember FMJ's are designed for the same purpose as rifle rounds...to wound not neccessarily stop or kill.  In a war situation because of logistics it is far better to wound a soldier than kill him.  More people to rescue, operate, care for, transport, replace etc.  Ties up more resources and funds that way.

:asian:


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## A.R.K. (Apr 19, 2003)

Tigertron,

Just for fyi my friend, the .45 Hydro-shok rated very poorly in our agencies test trials.  We decided on the Gold Dot 200+P although the Gold Dot 230 is a great round also [out of a full length barrel].

Where the round is put is more important that the round itself.

:asian:


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## MartialArtist (Apr 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Respectfully have to disagree with you on this point my friend.  An expanded 9mm can reach .70 caliber with certain loads, although .55 is more common.  Alot depends on what it hits and if it works.
> 
> An expanded .45 can reach a full inch in some cases, but usually not in tissue.  .65-.75 seems to be fairly common...IF it works in tissue the same as test media.  And remember test media is consistant in density, living tissue is not i.e. lungs, bone etc.
> ...


#1 reason - M-16's and M4's were not designed to work in that type of environment.  Those rifles need to be cleaned, and any type of sand and kaput.  They go through measures such as using plastic bags, but still it's not the best thing.  Many Special Ops are using M-14's due to the 7.62 and because it's just more durable.

Thus, many resort to their issue weapons...  Also, pistols are also drawn when subduing the citizens and yes, there were many incidents where there would be an Iraqi soldier posing as a civilian and since the only weapon at hand is the Beretta...


> The most common military caliber in the world. Ammo is easily and cheaply available in several varieties because prices are offset by high sales volume. Some 9mm para ammo will penetrate body armor but this caliber does not offer as much stopping power as other calibers without the use of costly hollow points or special ammunition. One should note that 9mm hollow points are rarely, if ever, capable of penetrating common body armor, although certain potent ammo that will penetrate armor is sometimes available.  Some special ammunition offers considerable performance but cost far more than military/para-military FMJ ammo. Most ammo in this caliber is suitable for game animals up to 150 pounds at close range and smaller game at medium ranges.  Many 9mm carbines and submachine guns will typically offer greater range and power than with handguns chambered in the same caliber. Most 9mm handguns utilize high capacity (usually 15 shot) magazines that can be costly. Standard ammunition (military ball) is usually cheap in this caliber because commercial production costs are offset by military contracts. High performance 9mm ammo is usually only slightly less costly than high performance ammo in other calibers, but this can be compensated for by reloading high performance bullets into the cases left over from target practice with cheaper 9mm military style ammo.   Recoil is pronounced, but manageable in most 9mm handguns and most 9mm shooters can rapid fire fairly accurately.



http://www.ammolab.com/

My other references are in the other gun thread on how the 9mm is not the best choice for combat.

Yes, wounding the enemy is better...  However in the case of Iraq regulars, they either just surrendered to minimize casualties and/or abandoned them.


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## Tigertron (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Tigertron,
> 
> Just for fyi my friend, the .45 Hydro-shok rated very poorly in our agencies test trials.  We decided on the Gold Dot 200+P although the Gold Dot 230 is a great round also [out of a full length barrel].
> ...



Wrong.

I agree with the quote below.


> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> .......  But the .45 is the best man-stopped in the world short of getting a .440 corbon and aiming at the guy's head and the other magnum calibers...  But in terms of stopping power, not lethality.  One person, one shot, shot placement isn't as important with the .45 as with a .380 or .22.



It does not matter where you hit, the 45 Hydrashok will hack you a nasty wound.  It is smarter to carry rounds that stop the criminals no matter where you hit him, then to carry some puny sissy rounds that demand you to shoot twice in the heart and one more to the head.


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## Tigertron (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *A 45 is already bigger than an expanded 9mm...  Right now in Iraq, there are tons of reports on how the 9mm can't really stand up right now.  And mind you, these are VERY HOT 9mm NATO rounds designed specifically for the military.  The 5.56mm is also showing its problems but is here to stay. *



That's right. We heard the same thing about how underpowered the 9mm is in the fields of  Afghanistan as well as Somalia.  Horrow stories about how the Talibans and the Somalia technicals (high on the narc, Kat) kept coming after being shot several times with the 9mm. The 45 was reported to one shot stop every time.   It has gotten so bad that the soldiers are no longer confident in shooting enemies with the 9mm.


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## Tigertron (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Tigertron,
> 
> Just for fyi my friend, the .45 Hydro-shok rated very poorly in our agencies test trials.  We decided on the Gold Dot 200+P although the Gold Dot 230 is a great round also [out of a full length barrel].
> ...



Forgot to mention earlier that the FBI test demonstrated that the 45 HydraShok 230@ 956  rated higher than  the Gold Dot 230 in terms of clothed/gelatin wound volume and expansion .

Seems like "some agencies" need to redo their homework.


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## A.R.K. (Apr 22, 2003)

Hmmm lets see now  

I posted...
Tigertron,

Just for fyi my friend, the .45 Hydro-shok rated very poorly in our agencies test trials. We decided on the Gold Dot 200+P although the Gold Dot 230 is a great round also [out of a full length barrel].

Where the round is put is more important that the round itself.


and you posted...wrong.  I don't recall seeing you at our agencies test range when we did ammo comparisions.     The FBI aside, the 230 Hydro-shok didn't  adequately perform, the 200 +P Gold Dot did.  Therefore it was the agencies choice.  The Hydro-shok clogged up with even light clothing and simply became ball ammo.  Same in other tests such as firearmstactical.com.

Another point, an expanded 9mm can easily be bigger than a .45.  A .45 is just that...a .45.  I've seen expanded 9mm's over .70.

Perhaps there are incidents of 9mm failure in both theaters of operation, just as there are in LEO arenas, but I think describing it as 'tons' is being a bit melodramatic and biased.  Since more people are shot with 9mm than all other handgun service calibers combined you will of course get more failures.  But I can easily show you several dozen failures or more with each other service caliber.  They all fail and will fail.  

There is no magic bullet, .45 included.  It is folly to think...



> It does not matter where you hit, the 45 Hydrashok will hack you a nasty wound.



Not if it balls up.  I've talked to medical examinars that clearly state that unless the slug is recovered it is virtually impossible to determined with accuracy what type of handgun caliber was used.  It is not that big of a difference.  



> Horrow stories about how the Talibans and the Somalia technicals (high on the narc, Kat) kept coming after being shot several times with the 9mm. The 45 was reported to one shot stop every time. It has gotten so bad that the soldiers are no longer confident in shooting enemies with the 9mm.



Uh huh, what are the sources for these horror stories?  

*Where you place the round is of far more importance than what the round is!  Top three priorites are function, penetration and accuracy under stress...period.  Everything else is far down on the list.  * 

Cheers :asian:


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## A.R.K. (Apr 22, 2003)

http://firearmstactical.com/test_data/45acp/fed45-230hs-g30.htm

Other results...

http://firearmstactical.com/briefs.htm

:asian:


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## Tigertron (Apr 22, 2003)

Me think you are just one of those "penetration" fanatics  who only looks at penetration.

Check this out:

The 45 HydraShok:

Rounds       Penetration :     Expansion   :  Wound Volume:
230@ 956 :         13.6"           0.74"               5.83 cu
230@ 878 :         20.0"           0.55"               4.80 cu
230@ 858 :         16.4"           0.66"               5.59 cu

GD :

200@1062 (+P)   18.9"           0.55"               4.41cu
230@896             18.9"           0.59"               5.17cu
230@847             14.3"           0.70"               5.50cu

FBI Test: Results are from clothed gelatin.

Looking at these facts, it is quite a stretch to say "the 230 Hydro-shok didn't adequately perform" and "the .45 Hydro-shok rated very poorly in our agencies test trials", wouldn't you say?

If penetration is the issue, any rounds that penetrate 12" are sufficient.  I think "some agencies", who ever they are, need to rethink through their logic.


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## Tigertron (Apr 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _.... what are the sources for these horror stories?



Soldiers!!! 



> Where you place the round is of far more importance than what the round is!  Top three priorites are function, penetration and accuracy under stress...period.  Everything else is far down on the list.



I think you fail to recognize the reality that the 45 compensates for penetration [hell, actually the 45 penetrates just fine! ] and accuracy under stress. When I blow a big hole in you, it really does not matter it is a gut shot or a heart shot. You are gonna stop dead in your path.     But hey, feel free to short change yourself by equipping yourself with more demanding rounds. Afterall, it is your own life that you are risking there.


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## A.R.K. (Apr 22, 2003)

Me thinks JN has returned from the grave...:rofl: 



> Me think you are just one of those "penetration" fanatics  who only looks at penetration.



If having adequate penetration to a vital organ through common obstacles or outstretched limbs means fanatacism...thats fine by me.  



> Looking at these facts, it is quite a stretch to say "the 230 Hydro-shok didn't adequately perform" and "the .45 Hydro-shok rated very poorly in our agencies test trials", wouldn't you say?



No I would not.  Were you at the FBI testing grounds?  I was present when we tested the 230 HS, in fact I fired the test rounds through a Glock 21 into the media both clothed and unclothed.  The HS balled up through light clothing.  As felons usually wear clothes....

Does this mean the 200+P GD walks on water?  No, no round or caliber does.  But it performed better in media and has worked wonderfully in actual police shootings for our agency.  If it works in jello and works in living tissue and puts Bg's down...it works.



> If penetration is the issue, any rounds that penetrate 12" are sufficient. I think "some agencies", who ever they are, need to rethink through their logic.



The key term is adequate penetration.  Since the GD is working well in real shootings I would say our logic is working just fine.



> Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu .... what are the sources for these horror stories?





> Soldiers!!!



Uh hug   Yes, that really narrows it down some.  Well if thats the case, then other soldiers say the 9mm works just fine and they have more ammo with less weight.   How about citing an actual piece of research for us from a credible source....???



> I think you fail to recognize the reality that the 45 compensates for penetration



I don't think you've actually fired one   A .45 will penetrate based on it's weight vs. sectional density the same as any other caliber.  



> When I blow a big hole in you, it really does not matter it is a gut shot or a heart shot. You are gonna stop dead in your path



Comments like this lead me to believe you are JN with another screen name to get around the ban.  You comment only happens in the movies my friend.  People have soaked up multiple .45 torso hits and ran from the scene.  Thats fact.  Not the fiction of '_blow a big hole in you'_ 

Hmmmmm :shrug:


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## Tigertron (Apr 23, 2003)

Who is JN?  I don't think you should be throwing baseless accusation around that you cannot prove. 

It is very simple actually. Just take a look at the FBI test result. The only measurement that makes GD stands out is PENETRATION!  In other categories, ie. expansion and wound volume, the 45 HydraShok performs superior to GD. Yet, you keep talking about how bad the 45 HydraShok performed when it actually performed superbly in expansion and wound volume and more than adequately in penetration, in clothed gelatin test, conducted by none other than the FBI which has no reason to fudge the test what so ever.  Therefore, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out the only criterial you are hyping about is PENETRATION, where GD scored an 18" . Which most likely would  over penetrate any torso and  sail down the street and kill an innocent bystander, and as a result, land your *** in prison for involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide.  NOT smart, my friend.   

As for the clogging issue, the FBI test used both bare gelatin AND clothed gelatin. If clogging occured, it would have occured in at least one of the 45 Hydrashok. But the test result speaks for itself.  

Therefore, it is really elementary, Watson.  

It is very funny that since the FBI clothed gelatin test result proves you wrong, that you resort to dismiss the test result.  

Whatever. Believe what you like. Go argue with the FBI, if you like.  Dismiss the soldiers' evaluation of the 9mm and the 45, if you like. 

As I have mentioned, it is your own life that you are poo-poo'ing     I'll take the experience of the FEDs and our battlefield warriors any day.


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## A.R.K. (Apr 23, 2003)

I have not thrown out any accusations...merely observations that you and JN are very similar in contend and accountability.  :shrug: 

I the FBI is your Holy grail so be it.  Those tests were performed many years ago.  The HS has remained the same, GD's have gone through at least two revisions.  

*Can you cite the FBI test study your refering to?

*Can you post the link to the study [it should be readily available as it's public record]?

*Can you post ANY realworld shootings in which a GD _sailed through a BG and hit an innocent bystander?_   Since we as an agency have used the 200+p Gd in numerous shootings [as well as the issued 124+P 9mm] we have yet to have one over-penetrate and not be recovered within feet of the body.  I say 'body' since more often than not the Bg was DRT with either caliber.  And the Bg's that were not DRT were incapacitated and not capable of further aggression.

*Still waiting for links to these _battlefield warriors_  that have had such a bad experience with the 9mm...Are these reports anywhere in our near future?

*Do you understand what adequate penetration means?

*Do you understand what sectional density is?

*Do you understand that every caliber statistically has the almost the same percentage of failures vs stops?

*Have you ever seen someone shot?  I have [I'm talking real, not TV]?

I await your answers.....

:asian:


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## Tigertron (Apr 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _...... People have soaked up multiple .45 torso hits and ran from the scene.  Thats fact....



Obviously, the Commandos of the Special Forces Detachment Delta,  its civilian sister, the agents of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, don't think so.  They, and many other elite units, pack the 45!   The FBI HRT actually tested on live goats (anaesthesized) and examinedthe wound effect before they picked the 45.

I am sure they know about their trade better than YOU do.  Again, it is really elementary, Watson. 

By the way, the SEAL Team 6 that pack the 9mm, they load their own ammo. In its founder, Marchenko's words, it packs enough power into the round to blow your head off CLEAN!    When he couldn't have access to that, he prefers the Winchester Black Talon.  You don't hear him yup about PENETRATION, do you?


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## A.R.K. (Apr 23, 2003)

Sigh  

No one has said the .45 sucks, only that it doesn't walk on water the way you claim.  Things such as _one hit from a 230 HS will put you down etc_  are utter nonsense.  It *might *  stop the threat...if it is placed well to hit a vital organ or CNS...*maybe.* 

Lots of special teams like the .45 BUT far more like the 9mm.  Israeli IDF to mention one.  In the end they are about the same in terms of terminal ballistics.  Where you put the round is FAR more important than what the round is.  You can debate that all that you like.



> I am sure they know about their trade better than YOU do



Really?  And how would you know that?     You don't know my background or experience do you?  Being _new_  here and all...having never posted here before and all :shrug: 

I have far more experience than you my friend, that is evident.  What is not evident is why you have yet to post references to your claims, links to your sources of information or answered any questions put to you.  Very curious indeed....

Can we expect you to back up your _points_  any time soon?  Experience tells me you have no more knowledge on this topic than what is available from guns n ammo.  No offense but there is more to it than what a gun rag sells.  Any answers or data forthcoming?

:asian:


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