# people complain



## Manny (Feb 14, 2013)

We have seen alot of complains about how sport/olimpic has damage the image of TKD turning it to a sport full contact martial art but, kyokusin kay or shotokan karate to name a few (also chito ryu, wado ryu, etc) do sport fighthing inside dojos and the tournament arena AND we don't see many bad coments about it!

Some people asked me about how I sparr and told me the way I saprr is the way I will fight in a real confrontation, well the way I sparr is WTF rule set because I can't chop viciusly the troat of my partner indisde the dojang to make clear that this hit can cause death, nor do I poke the eye of my partner to blind him momentarily or permanently to know I can maim a fella, I can not break a knee cap to diasble a partner to make clear to my stdentes a low kick can do such a damage.

All the dojos and dojangs I've been as a student, as a teacher or as a viewer I have never seen such punishment doing free sparring or even doing self defense techs, doing sparring all the studentes must follow the rules inside the dojo/dojang even doing self defense the techs are moderate in some way.

Even UFC for example has a rule set.

So everitime I guy tells me about TKD is not a martial art for self defense because it has went to sporty, neglecting the hand techs to the head, or because we fight with a low guard or because we use high kicks or what ever I feel sick.

TKD firsth of all is a Korean martial Art and not all tkdoings are inside the tourmanet circuit, not aal are inside the olimpics, not all are inside poomsae international chapionships and not all are inside selñf defense in mind, many do tkd because of health for example.

Maybe my TKD is way diferent to the way Gorila for example does or maybe my TKD is not the way Koong So Do does but for example the way mi two Shotokan friends do karate are not entirely the same.

Manny


----------



## Manny (Feb 14, 2013)

Manny said:


> We have seen alot of complains about how sport/olimpic has damage the image of TKD turning it to a sport full contact martial art but, kyokusin kay or shotokan karate to name a few (also chito ryu, wado ryu, etc) do sport fighthing inside dojos and the tournament arena AND we don't see many bad coments about it!
> 
> Some people asked me about how I sparr and told me the way I saprr is the way I will fight in a real confrontation, well the way I sparr is WTF rule set because I can't chop viciusly the troat of my partner indisde the dojang to make clear that this hit can cause death, nor do I poke the eye of my partner to blind him momentarily or permanently to know I can maim a fella, I can not break a knee cap to diasble a partner to make clear to my stdentes a low kick can do such a damage.
> 
> ...



Forgive me, this post was my intetion to post it in the TKD forum, it's my fault, howeever I think it has valid points that can be for any martial art, incluiding karate for example.

Best Regards.

Manny


----------



## tayl0124 (Feb 21, 2013)

I think that where the real problems lies in how your practice.   If you practice all the time for tournaments or sparring that is what you get comfortable with, that is what your muscles remember.  Not that you are incapable of do much more bodily harm when needed, however you have trained yourself to hold back.  And one will never know if what they do will work the way they want when they have to use full force untill they are in a position to use it.  That however is not specific to TKD.


----------



## Cyriacus (Feb 21, 2013)

tayl0124 said:


> That however is not specific to TKD.



And TKD is in a bigger spotlight. Karate, for example, has so bally many variants and systems and subsystems that picking on them would be next to impossible.


----------



## Drasken (Feb 21, 2013)

I personally have no problem with tournaments or with martial arts in general being practiced for sport fighting. In fact I defend their right to do so and enjoy watching and participating in the odd tournament (though being a Krav Maga practitioner it's rare to find a tournament I'm able to join).
Those with experience that I talk to have the same thoughts about sports martial arts.

I will say that my problem comes from schools teaching an art claiming self defense training but focusing on tournaments and teaching bad habits such as leaving guard down because striking to the face is illegal in many tournaments. The fault lies in bad instruction and training practices though, not the style.

That being said, I hear a lot of complaints and disrespect from inexperienced people toward the style as a whole because of their lack of experience and assumptions about an art they obviously know nothing about. So I do see your point. Just hoping to make the distinction between those that make complaints about the style and those pointing out bad habits. Then again not everyone learns karate or other martial arts for self defense in the first place.


----------



## Cyriacus (Feb 21, 2013)

Drasken said:


> Then again not everyone learns karate or other martial arts for self defense in the first place.



And as you touched on, thats where it gets bad. Martial Arts which claim to teach self defense, when they only really have the potential to get their students overconfident and hurt.


----------



## Drasken (Feb 21, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> And as you touched on, thats where it gets bad. Martial Arts which claim to teach self defense, when they only really have the potential to get their students overconfident and hurt.



Of course. But as I also said, this is not the style itself but the fault of bad schools and instructors that are promising something that they are unwilling or unable to deliver.

The styles themselves have been used for combat and sport since their development. Even in ancient times, martial arts of all kinds have been used in competition, some admittedly more brutal than others. The problem comes from dishonest practices. If you teach for tournaments then say such. Don't take money from a student and lie to them, that is immoral.
But to belittle a style because of this is just ignorance and uneducated assumptions. Which I'm sure we can all agree on, and what I believe the original post was about.
I can understand the frustration expressed in the original post and admit I share this frustration when discussing the martial arts with some people.


----------



## Cyriacus (Feb 21, 2013)

Drasken said:


> Of course. But as I also said, this is not the style itself but the fault of bad schools and instructors that are promising something that they are unwilling or unable to deliver.


Thats what i said


----------



## Drasken (Feb 21, 2013)

Just wanted to restate just in case.

You'll have to forgive me (I hope) as I'm suffering from insomnia and have no idea how I'm still awake right now.

That and I just like hearing myself talk...... or seeing myself type I suppose


----------



## Cyriacus (Feb 21, 2013)

Drasken said:


> That and I just like hearing myself talk...... or seeing myself type I suppose


At least youre honest.


----------



## harlan (Feb 21, 2013)

QFT. If you're not hearing 'badmouthing' about Shotokan, or (enter any other art), it's just the circles you run in. TKD is SOOO ubiquitous...it's just an easy target.



Cyriacus said:


> And TKD is in a bigger spotlight. Karate, for example, has so bally many variants and systems and subsystems that picking on them would be next to impossible.


----------



## GiannisMalkavian (Apr 9, 2013)

Well, it's true that when you practice in full contact fighting, you reflexes may cover a more spherical field while being attacked in a sudden. Which is useful on the "streets".
Although, the martial art doesn't make the fighter, the training and the practice make him/her.
I can more easily hit a friend of mine who is practicing muay thai for 6 months now than another who is practicing TKD for 10 years now, just because the 2nd one has trained his reflexes more.


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 9, 2013)

Drasken said:


> I personally have no problem with tournaments or with martial arts in general being practiced for sport fighting. In fact I defend their right to do so and enjoy watching and participating in the odd tournament (though being a Krav Maga practitioner it's rare to find a tournament I'm able to join).
> Those with experience that I talk to have the same thoughts about sports martial arts.



Just saw this when the thread got revived.  Why can't you participate in a tournament?  Drop the whole "too deadly" crap, unless you also plan to go to jail if you defend yourself.  If you're unable to modulate your defense to a reasonable and appropriate level on the street, you will go to jail.  If you can modulate your actions on the street -- you should also be able to do it in a tournament, no?   I'll buy a "I haven't practiced that" or "the rule set pretty much guarantees I'll lose" (though I'd then ask what your purpose in entering was... to win, or to gain a different experience?) justification, and, of course, "I just don't wanna" is always fine.  But the "our stuff is too deadly" is an excuse and crap unless you want to go to jail.


----------



## Zero (Apr 12, 2013)

I think it is foolish to underestimate or write off any person due to their particular style or the style itself.  As said, so much depends on the individual and who that individual is training with.  With inclusion in the Olympics TKD's exposure to the public was greatly enhanced but that said, to be included in the Olympics it has had to accept more fetters on the style in the ring and use of safety equipment.  If karate gets its day in the Olympics I am not so sure it will be anything like a full contact kyokoshin (for example) tournament.  Safety gear, ie headgear and hogu may be incorporated, less emphasis on leg attacks may occur or be ruled out as would knees to the head, hard to say.  People may then say, oh karate is so watered down now, you couldn't use that in the street.  Look at boxing in the Olympics, yet many gold medalists go on to be champions on the professional circuit in their divisions so they definitely have the skills and mind set.

That said, most sport focused styles will generaly (ok going on my experience and observations) not have the complimentary focus on SD/street-smarts/awareness that is so important to keeping your A out of the sling outside the dojo/ring. The kicking and distance skills I got from TKD in high school are great but I do not remembder one class or even minute ever devoted to or spent discussing self defense or even fighting practitioners from other styles, it was purely a TKD sport focused club with no interest in anything else.  That was just the club I was in, and this was the same for the other clubs I visited in my home area when a teen, so I gladly moved on to other styles.


----------

