# Loss,  Mentally, and Phyiscally



## FasterthanDeath (Jul 9, 2004)

I had a student of mine a couple of days ago get jumped by 3 guys and they did a number on him. My student is 6'1 260, Native American guy. Big and solid. Long hair to boot. He was in the car with three other people. A guy and two other girls. One of the girls used to be part of a Hate group. I am not going to name which one, and I am not going to go into it with much detail cause I dont want to start any problems on the forums. But she was part of a Hate group and got away and was staying with him and the other people in the car. They were being followed by individuals whom she used to run with. They didnt know this at the time. The three guys pulled infront of them at their apt complex and got out. My student (whom I will call X) gets out and they begin to exchange words back and forth. The three men have weapons and X tells the others to get out and run to the apt. The leader(or the guy who did the talking) of the three guys approached X and went to hit him. X hit him with a strike to the throat and the guy fell back. The second guy runs up and throws a punch, X blocks and hits him back, he falls. By now the two other women and the other guy get out of x's car and try to help him. The two girls quickly get put on the ground and they get up and run for help. The third guy just stood there. X couldnt fight them off for too long and eventually they controlled him by his hair and began to kick him in the face and chest, telling him to stay down. But he tried to get back up multiple times, thus resulting in him getting kicked multiple times. That was it. They left and X went to the hospital with a concussion and lots of cuts and bruises. He wouldnt talk to me for a couple of days because he was ashamed, and now he feels that he has dishonored me and that maybe he shouldnt do martial arts at all. I told him that all he could do was his best and that he walked away from it. That he had reached his goal. He won. But he didnt want to hear that. I dont know what to do for him, he feels that this was a challenge and that he didnt make it. So now he wants to quit. Your opinions and suggestions please, FTD


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## Shodan (Jul 9, 2004)

The first question that comes to my mind is how much training had X had prior to this event?  Was he a beginner?

  At any rate, beginner or not, we, as martial artists, must all come to realize that we are not invincible.  The movies would have us believe that where we see one guy/gal taking on multiple attackers with ease.......that that is how it goes once you learn to defend yourself........not so.  I think that X needs to realize that at least he had SOME training and was able to defend those first few strikes effectively.  If he quits training, and gets into a similar situation again in the future, he might not fair as well.  I think too, the more one trains, the more one learns to stay out of these types of situations.  The saying always used to go that we train to hopefully never have to use it.

  You never know what kinds of things are going to happen to you these days though- times are crazy.  I hope X realizes the value of his training- and continued training and will keep at it regardless of this incident.

  :asian:  :karate:


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## FasterthanDeath (Jul 9, 2004)

X is a beginner,heck, I havent taught him how to kick yet!! I keep telling him that he is lucky to be alive, that they didnt kill him. But he cant hear that at all. Not right now any way. And I told him to learn from it as much as he can, it taught me that everyone in MA, Younger and older, not only practice it for defense, but for confidence. I didnt understand it that much until I saw his face.


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## OUMoose (Jul 9, 2004)

It's painful to say, but he just needs some time.  Sounds like he now has a confidence problem, and there's no real way anyone can fix that other than X.  By the sounds, I'd shake his hand for faring as well as he did.

Not really sure what to offer for advice, but the best thing would be to talk to him as a friend, and not so much as an instructor.


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## Flatlander (Jul 9, 2004)

"X" needs to understand that walking the martial path is a lifelong endeavour.  Once he realizes that a master is still a student, perhaps he won't be so hard on himself.  

Tell him that the flatlander of the North urges him to remount his horse and follow the path.  As time passes, it is lost, and there's a long way to go before the end.


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## Enson (Jul 9, 2004)

there are a couple of things that come to mind:

1) "the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike"
2) he needs to look on the bright side. he could have faired worse. no fight is garauteed (spelling) and he took on 3 attackers. he probably would have faired better if it was just the one guy, but since it was mulitple it could be hard for even the best of us. they probably didn't want him to get back up because of fear of his fighting ability so if you think about it... ma could have saved his life. i agree with everyone else. he needs to continue that way he learns from his mistakes and can continue to train another day.

*side note* you might want to start him on kicks now. hee hee! (joke)


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## MichiganTKD (Jul 9, 2004)

He's lucky he's alive! Best advice I can give is deal with it, dust himself off, and move on. And don't let him obsess and get angry over it.


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## Tgace (Jul 9, 2004)

To be brutally honest...welcome to reality, there are no guarantees. Martial artists of ANY rank can get their @$#@'s kicked. Special Forces operators can get killed by untrained militia and strung up from bridges....thats the way it is and always has been. Sometimes life deals you a big $#&@ sandwitch and you gotta take a bite.


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## rompida (Jul 9, 2004)

I would first ask him how much he has spent on his hospital bills.  Ballpark estimate since it is so recent.  

When he responds, I would tell him that this money paid for a valuable lesson and experience that is not had by everyone.  To waste the money by quitting would be like going to college, paying thousands of $ for the education, and then quitting to go work at McD's instead.  Bottom line - he gained a valuable experience to be learned from.  Don't waste it. Use it to improve your training.


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## Flatlander (Jul 9, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> To be brutally honest...welcome to reality, there are no guarantees. Martial artists of ANY rank can get their @$#@'s kicked. Special Forces operators can get killed by untrained militia and strung up from bridges....thats the way it is and always has been. Sometimes life deals you a big $#&@ sandwitch and you gotta take a bite.


Man, you've got a way with words, Tom.


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## Tgace (Jul 9, 2004)




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## Tgace (Jul 9, 2004)

IMHO, the only thing worse than a student thinking he is a failure because he lost a fight, is an instructor thinking hes a failure because a student lost a fight. The instructor should have a grasp on the "reality" of fighting and know that sometimes this is just the way things go. Armed 3 on 1 is bad for any art,rank,ninja,commando,SWAT cop etc.

An exercise for the student at this point isnt only "what could I have done/what should I train to win next time" (which he should) but "what could I have done to have avoided it?" too. Without knowing the details, options could have been to back away and drive off, not escalated with a war of words, had somebody call 911, etc. Not with the aim of "you screwed up" but with the goal of better "thinking through" the next time.


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## Flatlander (Jul 9, 2004)

Sort of as in, let's learn from our mistakes, that we may not repeat them.


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## Tgace (Jul 9, 2004)

Zactly!


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## OC Kid (Jul 9, 2004)

He has lost his confidence. Its normal after being beat both in the ring and out of the ring. You need to rebuild his confidence. Maybe talking to him and explaining that he fought valiantly. He fought like a true warrior. As a warrior He has come to home, to train. He honored himself and you his friends and this great country of ours. 

"No man has greater love than to lay down his life for his friends."

He needs time, caring and to renew his confidence. Remind him He is a warrior. Even though he percieves he lost. He actually won. His friends are safe and protected. He should be very very proud of himself. I would be proud to have him as a student.

Maybe print this entire thread out and let him read it might help also. God Bless him.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 9, 2004)

Lets see, he gave people time to get away, he took on multiple opponets and lived, thats good.
 Is he thinking he should have stayed in the car and driven to a safer place or somewhere to get help (police station)?
 Is he afraid they are going to come back and do it again?
 Is he just disapointed he didn't kick the crap out of them?
 Dose he think he could have done better if he had broken bones?
 Or is he just takeing a hard look at himslef . his choice of friends and the problems that come by being friends?
 If you get a chance to have coffee, a drink, or anything let him bring up the subject and don't force him by questioning to hard.  Do not say you could have done it this way or that way, encourage him for sticking up for the girls and for putting himslef in harms way to help them.  Let him know you would like him back in the school and let him know that even those that studied most of their lives can still be on the loseing end of a fight.


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 9, 2004)

One of the areas I have training in is Mental Health Nursing. The gentleman's pride has been forever damaged. He needs to understand that just being a Martial Artist is no absoulte that you will not get hurt. 

The problem with some MA Schools. The training they do Katas and do not actually do combat situational role play with Protective gear to have the mind set to fight and overpower multiple opponents. 

When confronted with Multiple attackers you have to adjust your tactics to maiming an individual that may come as a shock to some Artist but it is a fact of life. You must go home and let the other people go to ER. 

In my training as a Police Officer they instilled in us the mindset Your Family needs you and you need them go home at the end of the Day no matter what!

In the event of court proceedures you can tell the Judge I showed restraint your Honor I did not kill them. 

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## FasterthanDeath (Jul 9, 2004)

He is a good friend of mine. Known me for over 10 years. In every other encounter or fight we have been in together, he has seen me fend off multiple people and we have always gotten out of situations on the upside. I have never ever won a fight, but I have never lost a fight either. I have told him since I have known him that walking away is winning. Plain and simple. But if you fight you have already lost. Because its not suppose to be taken that far. I think he sees how much I cherish what I do, and honor it, and he thinks that by me teaching him and being beat that he has in some way dishonored the art and himself. But I told him there is no honor in dying when you could of walked away. Fighting is the last resort, and there are no winners. Just learn from what happened and use it to your advantage next time, hopefully in learning now there wont be a next time.


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 9, 2004)

Wow,That's really a tough ordeal for him,you've had plenty of good advice that I can't add anything to,except maybe after he wants to talk about it,show him this thread,invite him to join MT.Then he can ask all the advice he wants with lots of varied answers besides just yours.Just an idea.


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## Phoenix44 (Jul 9, 2004)

He gets jumped by 3 guys, and walks away from it?  I'd say he did well for himself.


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## Flatlander (Jul 9, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> Wow,That's really a tough ordeal for him,you've had plenty of good advice that I can't add anything to,except maybe after he wants to talk about it,show him this thread,invite him to join MT.Then he can ask all the advice he wants with lots of varied answers besides just yours.Just an idea.


And a good idea at that.  That Gary Crawford, he's a wise fellow.


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## Shu2jack (Jul 9, 2004)

One of the women was part of a hate group. By the sounds of it, they were mainly after her or wanted to hurt all of the people in the car, including your student.

By standing up to 3 attackers with weapons, he prevented the others from being seriously hurt or possibly killed, even though he took a beating for it. Heck, I would say he was heroic.

Part of the reason for studying the fighting arts is to protect yourself and others. Though he failed to protect himself (and honestly, I don't care who you are, 3 armed attackers against just an unarmed you? Odds are against you), he protected the others. In that light he did himself, you as his instructor, and his art justice and brought honor to your school and himself.


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## 8253 (Jul 9, 2004)

Time and meditation works wonders.  X has done a very noble thing by protecting the others and giving them a route of escape.  To me this shows that X has more courage than most people that I know.  People should be proud of the fact that X has shown the courage to protect others.  For that he has definately won mentally and physically.


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## loki09789 (Jul 9, 2004)

FasterthanDeath said:
			
		

> I had a student of mine a couple of days ago get jumped by 3 guys and they did a number on him. My student is 6'1 260, Native American guy. Big and solid. Long hair to boot. He was in the car with three other people. A guy and two other girls. One of the girls used to be part of a Hate group. I am not going to name which one, and I am not going to go into it with much detail cause I dont want to start any problems on the forums. But she was part of a Hate group and got away and was staying with him and the other people in the car. They were being followed by individuals whom she used to run with. They didnt know this at the time. The three guys pulled infront of them at their apt complex and got out. My student (whom I will call X) gets out and they begin to exchange words back and forth. The three men have weapons and X tells the others to get out and run to the apt. The leader(or the guy who did the talking) of the three guys approached X and went to hit him. X hit him with a strike to the throat and the guy fell back. The second guy runs up and throws a punch, X blocks and hits him back, he falls. By now the two other women and the other guy get out of x's car and try to help him. The two girls quickly get put on the ground and they get up and run for help. The third guy just stood there. X couldnt fight them off for too long and eventually they controlled him by his hair and began to kick him in the face and chest, telling him to stay down. But he tried to get back up multiple times, thus resulting in him getting kicked multiple times. That was it. They left and X went to the hospital with a concussion and lots of cuts and bruises. He wouldnt talk to me for a couple of days because he was ashamed, and now he feels that he has dishonored me and that maybe he shouldnt do martial arts at all. I told him that all he could do was his best and that he walked away from it. That he had reached his goal. He won. But he didnt want to hear that. I dont know what to do for him, he feels that this was a challenge and that he didnt make it. So now he wants to quit. Your opinions and suggestions please, FTD


Time for the After Action Report, IMO. What did he do right? What did he do wrong? What conditions/elements could he actually control and what conditions were beyond his control? What, ultimately should the ultimate objective be in such scenarios?  People pay lip service to the idea that martial artists have failed if a they allow a fight to happen because they don't really spend a lot of time on the tactical/mental/control issues that will keep a fight from happening.  Hindsight being 20/20, cell phones should have been dialing up like crazy and there should have been no words exchanged when weapons were involved/displayed.  Get in the car and run.  Of course that is so easy to see from the comfort of my keyboard, but if you talk it out with him using the above questions and others like it, he will see what the reality is in contrast to his personal expectations.  He had very little chance and was lucky it went as well as it did.  Not that it went well, just that statistically it could have been MUCH worse.

Choices and more choices. Even before the event, considering lifestyle and examining that very carefully will go a long way too. You mentioned multiple cases of multiple opponent fights that you and he were there for over the last 10 years....might be a good idea to find a better part of town or a less combustable social environment to participate in.  In terms of developing his martial arts/personal growth, facing it rationally will go a long way to create a reasonable perspective.  

I am very glad that your friend survived. I am very glad that he has learned the limits of his human influence on the world. It is very sad that he learned that lesson in such a traumatic way. But, I would say that the only way to help him get any semblance of self confidence is to look at it analytically and within the context of his life, not just a fight or 'test.' I would even go so far as suggest professional counselling. You are a martial arts instructor and friend. You can be part of the recovery but he will need more than friendship if this is impacting him so deeply. Post Traumatic Stress is what I would call it.

I hope the Police were notified and legal action is in process since the one girl knew the people who attacked them.


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## Bod (Jul 10, 2004)

Tell him to consider himself a hero, brag about it to his grandchildren, and cut his hair.

Learning to take loss with equanimity has to be one of the hardest lessons of all, but it takes you to another level.


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