# taijidao



## DaPoets

This past weekend I studied taijijian extremely hard for days... eat, slept, and everything taijijian from Thursday night through to Sunday afternoon and practicing a lot everyday now to ensure I avoid my up coming issue.  I am taking taijidao this coming weekend (it's just how the classes got schedule in these two differnet TTCS locations and countries....).  taijijian I learned at the international center in canada, and now taijidao I'll be learning here in the states.  

Question is, is there any advice on taijidao from anyone?  Things I should keep in mind?  Things to look for?  Things to ask?

I'll have to try very hard to keep taijijian and taijidao as seperate as possibile and yet allow them to improve each other and my taijiquan.

Thank you all in advance!


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## Flying Crane

Jian and Dao technique is quite different, so you shouldn't be really confusing them.  I expect the pattern of your forms will be rather different.  It's not just a matter of picking up a different weapon and doing the same form.

Don't try to do too much too soon.  If you've just learned something (jian), you might want to give yourself time to develop that and make sure you are solid with it, before you pile something else on top of it.  Remember: the more you learn, the more you need to split your time between different things, so the less time you spend on each thing.  It's just reality of training.  So recognize what pace works well for you and don't try to do too much too soon.


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## East Winds

Flying Crane,

Great advice, as usual!!!

Very best wishes


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## DaPoets

Lucky for me my Taoist Tai Chi branch is inbetween where I work and live, so during the day around lunch time I have been stopping in to do a couple sword sets w/ one of the instructors there and then in the evening after the beginners class I teach I can do a couple more sword sets w/ a few other instructors.  None of them are qualified to teach sword officially but we can at least all practice together.


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## Flying Crane

yeah, working in practice sessions whenever you can is a good way to stay on top of things.

I belong to a gym near my office.  I often train in the morning before work, and during my lunch break.  that's in addition to classes in the evenings and weekends.  It can become kind of obsessive, but it works for me.


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## ggg214

i have never train with dao or jian. my master told me that these things are the extension of your body. i hope this sentence may give you some understanding about your practice.
i think your jian or dao is not as light as paper. some weight of your dao or jian may help your training a lot.


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> Jian and Dao technique is quite different, so you shouldn't be really confusing them. I expect the pattern of your forms will be rather different. It's not just a matter of picking up a different weapon and doing the same form.
> 
> Don't try to do too much too soon. If you've just learned something (jian), you might want to give yourself time to develop that and make sure you are solid with it, before you pile something else on top of it. Remember: the more you learn, the more you need to split your time between different things, so the less time you spend on each thing. It's just reality of training. So recognize what pace works well for you and don't try to do too much too soon.


 
yup that about covers it.


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## East Winds

Of course the main difference between Jian and Dao is that Jian has two cutting edges whereas Dao has only one. Therefore the techniques of usage are entirely different.

Yang Cheng-fu had some very wise words about learning forms.

_*"In the second instance are those who impatiently seek quick results, yet who are careless in their development. Before a year has passed they have already studied the hand, sword, broadsword and spear forms. Although able to imitate in rote fashion, they in fact never master the secrets. As soon as one checks their directions and movements, upper, lower, inner  and outer, all come up short. If you want to make corrections, then you must amend each and every posture."

*_Very best wishes


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## DaPoets

I actually took that to heart... I chose to only study taijiquan for 12 years before doing another art.  Others after only 1 or 2 years began to study luihebafa when it was obvious they needed more time to work on thier taijiquan.  
This year (2008) is my year of tai chi.  I have chosen to at least take all the workshops and classes that the TTCS has to offer and study diligently 6 days a week (taking sundays off to give my body a break and do house work).  I have a lot of work a head of me and my road map has been described as very ambitious but after this past weekend, many came to me saying that based on how quickly I picked up taijijian I should be able to acomplish my goals for this year if I continue to work this hard.  I will not do lazy tai chi, each move will have full meaning and intent.

Cheers!


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## East Winds

DaPoets,

Can I suggest you have a look at YouTube where you will find some superb Taiji as well as some truly appalling Taiji. Have a look at the different styles - Chen, Yang, Wu, Sun and some completely unknown styles!!! Compare them with TTCS and note the similarities as well as the differences. Apply the same logic to Sword and Sabre forms as well as looking at Xing Yi and Liu He Ba Fa (Lok Hup Bat Fat).

Incidentally I met Mrs Kwan in Colchester when she came over with Mr. Moy many years ago.

Very best wishes on your journey


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:


> DaPoets,
> 
> look at YouTube where you will find some superb Taiji as well as some truly appalling Taiji.


 
ain't that the truth



East Winds said:


> Apply the same logic to Sword and Sabre forms as well as looking at Xing Yi



There's a Xingyi Sword (Jian) form?


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:


> Sword and Sabre forms as well as looking at Xing Yi


 
I found a rare shuangshou jian form done by Xingyi and Bagua so I guess I answered my own question. But it is a 2 handed Jain not a single handed like we use in Taijiquan.

Is there a single handed Jain form that you have seen in Xingyiquan? If so I am very interested in finding out more about it.


EDIT:

Nevermind, a bit more webfu produced these as common weapons in Xingyiquan; Spear, Straight sword, Sabre, Large Sabre, Long Staff, Short Staff, Needles, Fuyue, Chicken-Sabre Sickle.

I knew about all but the Straight Sword, and I suspected thay XIngyi like Bagua used needles. But then again I am still not sure it is single handed Jain. 

And I am going off post, sorry about that :asian:


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## DaPoets

Been doing that for years....  I'm very aware of what other styles look like and seen their applications countless times.  I took classes under Mr. Moy as Buffalo is only an hour and a half drive from the D'Arcy st. branch in Toronto where he tought on Tuesday nights.



East Winds said:


> DaPoets,
> 
> Can I suggest you have a look at YouTube where you will find some superb Taiji as well as some truly appalling Taiji. Have a look at the different styles - Chen, Yang, Wu, Sun and some completely unknown styles!!! Compare them with TTCS and note the similarities as well as the differences. Apply the same logic to Sword and Sabre forms as well as looking at Xing Yi and Liu He Ba Fa (Lok Hup Bat Fat).
> 
> Incidentally I met Mrs Kwan in Colchester when she came over with Mr. Moy many years ago.
> 
> Very best wishes on your journey


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## East Winds

DaPoets_*

"Been doing that for years....  I'm very aware of what other styles look like and seen their applications countless times."
*_
I would therefore be very interested in hearing your interpretation of other mainstream forms in relation to Taoist Tai Chi. 

Very best wishes


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## DaPoets

I guess I don't speak of them often mainly because they are not my cup of tea at this point in time in my life.  Learning the Taoist taijidao this past weekend was a great experience and I have to say that now I have to get a heavier sword becase that saber is many many times heavier lol.  I think it was fairly easy for me to pick up taijidao actually as it's a shorter set than taijijian and for me it was really only learing like 3 new moves that were not in the taijiquan set (foot placement, stretching, turning, sitting standing etc...) but overall it has definately improved my taijiquan.   I have lots of practice a head of me but I came out of this weekend being able to fluidly do the set by myself with good form.  After I internalize it over the next few weeks I'll give a nice write up on my take on it, taijijian and compare it to other forms that I have seen out there.

Hsing-I is only taught once every 3 years now in the TTCS so since it's taught this summer in July I'm going to go ahead and take it...  So that's my next big project and that will be from June 30th - July 4th at the temple in Orangeville.  With as much as I have been practicing taijijian, I can do the set w/ a clear mind, w/ out thought of what move is next and I want to get to that point in the next week or so w/ taijidao so that my brain and body will just do the moves and I can then relax.


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## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> Hsing-I is only taught once every 3 years now in the TTCS so since it's taught this summer in July I'm going to go ahead and take it... So that's my next big project and that will be from June 30th - July 4th at the temple in Orangeville.


 
I am very interested in hearing about what the TTCS's Hsing-I (Xingyi) is like. I mean no disrespect and I am not trying to be critical but Xingyi is very much a fighting style and I am interested in what the TTCS take on it is.

I can see the Wuji, Zhan Zhuang, Santi and the other standing postures translating well but the rest is pretty geared towards fighting and I am wondering what it is like at TTCS. Also what forms 5 elements, Animal forms, spear, dao, jain, staff, etc.

I look forward to the post on Xingyi


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## DaPoets

I don't know much about xingyi yet as I have only seen it demonstrated a few times with in TTCS and we even had a delegation come to Toronto a few years ago from china that practices xingyi and even though they have been practicing it for many years they have only been taught the main moves and not the entire set as the moves are very powerful in their own right.  I was told that the movements were exactly the same.  TTCS hsing-i apparently hasn't been taught in 3 years as I found out over the weekend.


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## DaPoets

Hey East Winds, I ment to tell you that I have a video of Mrs Kwan teaching Hsing-I to her Feb 2000 class.  It shows them doing it twice, once from one camera angle and the 2nd from the opposite angle.  Apparently she had breast cancer years ago and ended up beating it.  Her husband wasn't so lucky and passed away from a really bad stroke.



East Winds said:


> DaPoets,
> 
> Can I suggest you have a look at YouTube where you will find some superb Taiji as well as some truly appalling Taiji. Have a look at the different styles - Chen, Yang, Wu, Sun and some completely unknown styles!!! Compare them with TTCS and note the similarities as well as the differences. Apply the same logic to Sword and Sabre forms as well as looking at Xing Yi and Liu He Ba Fa (Lok Hup Bat Fat).
> 
> Incidentally I met Mrs Kwan in Colchester when she came over with Mr. Moy many years ago.
> 
> Very best wishes on your journey


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## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> have a video of Mrs Kwan teaching Hsing-I to her Feb 2000 class.


 
That I would like to see. I am VERY curious about the TTCS take on Xingyiquan.


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## DaPoets

Well it's on VHS... so that would actually be a project for me to get it onto my computer.  I'll look into it in my spare time for you Xue Sheng.


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## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> Well it's on VHS... so that would actually be a project for me to get it onto my computer. I'll look into it in my spare time for you Xue Sheng.


 
Thanks but don't worry about it if it is a big deal. I am sure I will run across it someplace eventually.


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## Myrmidon

*Hunyuan Taiji Dao:*


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## Myrmidon

*Yang Taiji Dao:*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj0GS_Vb-88&NR=1


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## Myrmidon

*Wu Taiji Dao:*


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## Myrmidon

*Chen Taiji Dao:*





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-3VSntxFmw&feature


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## Flying Crane

Myrmidon said:


> *Hunyuan Taiji Dao:*


 
Hey, that was really cool to see.  Chen Xiang is my sifu's kung fu brother, both students of Master Feng in Beijing.  I practice this same form, but he's sooooo much better at it than I am.

My Sifu brings Sifu Chen to San Francisco about once a year to do seminars.  I learned the Hunyuan sword from him a few years back.  that guy is really really powerful!


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## East Winds

Myrmidon,

In the 2nd Yang clip you posted, he is using the Southern Broad Sword rather than the typical Dao. This is the one used by the Yang Family rather than the usual broad ended Dao. Still only one cutting edge though.

Very best wishes


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## Myrmidon

East Winds said:


> Myrmidon,
> 
> In the 2nd Yang clip you posted, he is using the Southern Broad Sword rather than the typical Dao. This is the one used by the Yang Family rather than the usual broad ended Dao. Still only one cutting edge though.
> 
> Very best wishes



*Yes, I know. I usually prefer the typical dao (I practice Chen style)... but not the flimsy ones used nowadays though...*


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## Myrmidon

*Here's another example of Yang Style Dao... very nice:*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnI8PlBDrjo&NR=1


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## Flying Crane

Myrmidon said:


> * I usually prefer the typical dao (I practice Chen style)... but not the flimsy ones used nowadays though...*


 
I agree, I think you get much more out of it by using realistic weaponry.  I've been customizing swords for a while now, 'cause I can't find something I like otherwise.


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## Myrmidon

Flying Crane said:


> I agree, I think you get much more out of it by using realistic weaponry.  I've been customizing swords for a while now, 'cause I can't find something I like otherwise.



*Tell me more about your sword custmomizing...*


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## Flying Crane

Myrmidon said:


> *Tell me more about your sword custmomizing...*


 
Basically, I make hilts and scabbards, if I can find a good quality blade.  I've mostly done jian, but I've done a few dao as well.  I carve the grip from hardwood, and cast a guard and pommel in bronze, altho I've done a couple in silver.  Scabbards are in hardwood as well, with bronze fittings.

These hilt pieces are solid pieces, not the loose, flimsy sheetmetal crap that most of the stuff has.  My favorite blades are made by Angus Trim, he does European style swords, but some of his models work well for a jian.  He works in 5160 spring steel, the same stuff truck leaf springs are made of.  Tough stuff, makes a good blade.  Absolutely real weapons.

I've worked with a few heavy weight Lung Chuan dao blades.  These are the thick, heavy ones, altho they come in a variety of weights, depending on which Lung Chuan forge made it.  I basically find them whereever I can.  If I feel the blade is decent, I'll rebuild the hilt.  I've only made scabbards for jian, never tried one for a dao.  That would be a bit trickier with the wood working, but maybe someday I'll give it a try.

I've been doing the casting at the local community college.  I recently bought my own casting equipment, but I've yet to have a chance to try it out.  I'm working on a sword now, when the pieces are ready I'll cast them and see how they come out.

You can see pictures of a few examples of my swords in the photo album here on Martialtalk:  http://www.martialtalk.com/gallery/index.php?cat=17260

My hilt designs aren't necessarily based on historical designs.  Rather, I am simply interested in creating something that is solid, strong, and functional.  So I come up with simple designs that seem to fit this bill.  Nothing fancy.  These designs sort of keep changing, as I get new ideas in my head, so it's all pretty fluid.  Each piece is unique, made to fit the blade and the scabbard.  There's nothing interchangeable about them.

I also have a small line of sterling silver pendants, I've got a link to my website in my signature line.  www.flyingcranedesigns.com.  Check it out, they are animal-inspired, my wife and I are scuba divers so that's where much of my inspiration comes from.  I've got to update my website, I've got a few more designs that arent' on there yet, but a friend of mine helps me out with it and we haven't been able to get together to do it in a while.


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## Flying Crane

Myrmidon said:


> *Yang Taiji Dao:*


 
This one is actually Taiji Saber, a different weapon from the Dao.  It's a more slender blade, similar in shape to a katana.

I am not familiar with the form so I don't know if he was doing a Dao form with a Saber, or if it is a Saber form mis-labelled as Dao, but he was definitely holding a saber.


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## Xue Sheng

Just a comment/question about the Dao.

It has been my understanding that it was sharpened only about 1/3 or 2/3 down the accepted business side from the point and about 1/3 down the back from the point, is that correct?


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## DaPoets

Myrmidon said:


> *Yang Taiji Dao:*
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj0GS_Vb-88&NR=1




I would have to say that there are a lot of similarities in this 1st video to TTCS taijidao.


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## DaPoets

Myrmidon said:


> *Here's another example of Yang Style Dao... very nice:*
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnI8PlBDrjo&NR=1



yeah it's very clear that TTCS taijidao gets it's history from yang style.


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> Just a comment/question about the Dao.
> 
> It has been my understanding that it was sharpened only about 1/3 or 2/3 down the accepted business side from the point and about 1/3 down the back from the point, is that correct?


 

don't know with absolute certainty, but I believe so.


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## Myrmidon

Flying Crane said:


> You can see pictures of a few examples of my swords in the photo album here on Martialtalk:  http://www.martialtalk.com/gallery/index.php?cat=17260



*Beautiful work!!!*



> I also have a small line of sterling silver pendants, I've got a link to my website in my signature line.  www.flyingcranedesigns.com.  Check it out, they are animal-inspired, my wife and I are scuba divers so that's where much of my inspiration comes from.  I've got to update my website, I've got a few more designs that arent' on there yet, but a friend of mine helps me out with it and we haven't been able to get together to do it in a while.



*This is very nice too...*


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## DaPoets

ooohh  Shiney...


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## Myrmidon

Flying Crane said:


> This one is actually Taiji Saber, a different weapon from the Dao.  It's a more slender blade, similar in shape to a katana.
> 
> I am not familiar with the form so I don't know if he was doing a Dao form with a Saber, or if it is a Saber form mis-labelled as Dao, but he was definitely holding a saber.



*I have never seen it used in Chen style. Is it only used by Yang stylists?*


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## East Winds

Flying Crane,

You are correct. It is a Sabre although the Yangs call it Southern Broadsword. He is performing the Traditional Yang Family Form (13 posture).


Very best wishes


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## Flying Crane

Myrmidon said:


> *Beautiful work!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> *This is very nice too...*


 

Thank you!


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## Flying Crane

DaPoets said:


> ooohh Shiney...


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## Flying Crane

Myrmidon said:


> *I have never seen it used in Chen style. Is it only used by Yang stylists?*


 

I've heard that it is only found in Yang taiji, and in Xing-yi.  That may not be entirely accurate, but that is what I have heard.


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## Flying Crane

East Winds said:


> Flying Crane,
> 
> You are correct. It is a Sabre although the Yangs call it Southern Broadsword. He is performing the Traditional Yang Family Form (13 posture).
> 
> 
> Very best wishes


 
Interesting.  I've only seen Southern Broadsword in reference to the shorter, wider version of the broadsword, with an extra long handle and often a ring pommel.  Sometimes with a series of rings along the back of the blade.


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## Xue Sheng

Just to get things straight here

Dao

Taiji Sabre

Da Dao




Flying Crane said:


> You can see pictures of a few examples of my swords in the photo album here on Martialtalk: http://www.martialtalk.com/gallery/index.php?cat=17260


 
Damn that is nice work. If you lived closer I'd have about 3 jobs for you. 2 Daos and a Jain.


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> Damn that is nice work. If you lived closer I'd have about 3 jobs for you. 2 Daos and a Jain.


 
well, there is that thing called UPS...


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> Just to get things straight here
> 
> Dao
> 
> Da Dao


 
You've got these two linked to the same pic...


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> You've got these two linked to the same pic...


 
after a quick edit

ummm :uhoh:.... no I don't :uhyeah:

Thanks, I fixed it


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## DaPoets

Thanks Xue Sheng, very informative.


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## Flying Crane

grrr... now my office web nannie blocks the link to the Dao.  I expect it's accurate anyway, I certainly know what  Dao is...


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## East Winds

Xue Sheng,

Thanks for that. The Taiji Sabre is the one the Yang Family use and call Southern Broadsword. Its the one the guy was using in the clip I referred to.


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## Xue Sheng

The Tung/Dong family uses the Dao.


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