# Something Odd



## LegLockGuy (Jan 31, 2007)

Hello ya'll, I'm from Illinois.

I remember a little while back there was a Toshindo school in Naperville, Il. It always looked interesting. Well a little lil while back I was confused to see that the school had basically disappeared. No mention on the net, in the yellow book or anything. I've heard that this happened to alot to Toshindo schools. Is that true?


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## Jade Tigress (Jan 31, 2007)

It's still there. It's the Illinois Quest Center now. Hope this helps.


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## LegLockGuy (Jan 31, 2007)

Jade Tigress said:


> It's still there. It's the Illinois Quest Center now. Hope this helps.



Really?

I look on the net and find nothing about it, also on the official Toshindo website, it doesn't list the school.


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## Jade Tigress (Jan 31, 2007)

LegLockGuy said:


> Really?
> 
> I look on the net and find nothing about it, also on the official Toshindo website, it doesn't list the school.



I know someone who trained/trains there. Do a yahoo yellow page search, you'll find it there.


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## lalom (Jan 31, 2007)

Actually the school in Naperville, indeed is no longer a To-Shin Do dojo, or a Quest Center.  The school's head instructor is Michael Eichenberg who has left To-Shin Do and has teamed up with Tom Maienza.  Tom Maienza split from To-Shin Do and started his own version of taijutsu called Jizaikan, an art where he's merged his experience with Ninjutsu with Aiki-jujitsu.  

I don't understand in any way how that could even be done being that the concepts are completely different, however if you wish to see it further here it is:  www.jizaikan.com.

Tom Maienza is ranked 4th degree in Bujinkan Budo and 5th degree in To-Shin Do among a plethora of other arts.


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## Jade Tigress (Feb 1, 2007)

lalom said:


> Actually the school in Naperville, indeed is no longer a To-Shin Do dojo, or a Quest Center.  The school's head instructor is Michael Eichenberg who has left To-Shin Do and has teamed up with Tom Maienza.  Tom Maienza split from To-Shin Do and started his own version of taijutsu called Jizaikan, an art where he's merged his experience with Ninjutsu with Aiki-jujitsu.
> 
> I don't understand in any way how that could even be done being that the concepts are completely different, however if you wish to see it further here it is:  www.jizaikan.com.
> 
> Tom Maienza is ranked 4th degree in Bujinkan Budo and 5th degree in To-Shin Do among a plethora of other arts.




Ahhhhhh. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## SFC JeffJ (Feb 1, 2007)

lalom said:


> Actually the school in Naperville, indeed is no longer a To-Shin Do dojo, or a Quest Center.  The school's head instructor is Michael Eichenberg who has left To-Shin Do and has teamed up with Tom Maienza.  Tom Maienza split from To-Shin Do and started his own version of taijutsu called Jizaikan, an art where he's merged his experience with Ninjutsu with Aiki-jujitsu.
> 
> I don't understand in any way how that could even be done being that the concepts are completely different, however if you wish to see it further here it is:  www.jizaikan.com.
> 
> Tom Maienza is ranked 4th degree in Bujinkan Budo and 5th degree in To-Shin Do among a plethora of other arts.


It would be interesting to see the results of that combination.


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## saru1968 (Feb 1, 2007)

I've sent a polite email to try an gain some further understanding of what they do.


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## lalom (Feb 1, 2007)

saru1968 said:


> I've sent a polite email to try an gain some further understanding of what they do.


 
I hope you do better than I did.  Some months ago I sent an email to Mr. Maienza but never receieved a reply.  This was when he split off so he might be less "busy" now.

From what I've heard from a few sources, is that he began tired of getting tapped out by rookie practioners of Jujitsu when things would go to the ground.  He assumeably has merged the principles of ninjutsu with the groundwork from Steve Crawford's Aiki-jujitsu MMA stuff.


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## LegLockGuy (Feb 4, 2007)

Can't wait to hear the new info.


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## saru1968 (Feb 4, 2007)

LegLockGuy said:


> Can't wait to hear the new info.


 

No reply ..yet..

I'll give it another day and resend.


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## LegLockGuy (Feb 6, 2007)

Any reply?


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## saru1968 (Feb 6, 2007)

LegLockGuy said:


> Any reply?


 

Nope nothing whatsoever..

I'll resend but the email did not bounce back so it should have got there.


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## MrFunnieman (Feb 8, 2007)

saru1968 said:


> Nope nothing whatsoever..
> 
> I'll resend but the email did not bounce back so it should have got there.



It is unfortunate that you haven't heard anything.  I have spoken with Tom Maienza in the past and trained with him when he was part of the Quest Center, but I have never trained in Jizaikan.  I think the concept is interesting, but I understand how Aikido and Ninjutsu/ To-shin Do could be philosophically at odds.

As for To-shind Do schools mysteriously dropping out of existance, I don't think it's true.  Gary Bolton was running a school in Florida and moved back to run the Hombu dojo a couple of years ago and when Tom Maienza left there were a few senior students from the Dayton Hombu that followed Mr. Maienza.  Michael Eichenberg is a nice guy and I trained with him several years ago, while he was still part of the Quest organization, but before he took over the school in Illinois.

LegLockGuy, I think it would worth checking out.  Watch a couple of classes or if they have an intro deal, try it out.

FWIW


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## stone_dragone (Feb 9, 2007)

From the website..

_"Jizaikan __school of martial arts have both classical and modern styles: Ninjutsu, Aiki Jujutsu, Aiki Ninjutsu, Aiki Ninpo, Toshin Do, Bujinkan, Jinenkan, Aikido, Judo, AJJ, American Jujutsu, Jujutsu, Kenpo, grappling training and more. Arts taught by Hatsumi, Stephen K. Hayes, Morihei Ueshiba, Tom Maienza, Steven A. Crawford, the Jizaikan and more"_

and for more info

"JizaiKan has gone to Myspace.  Be sure to go and check out the weekly training video."

There's a link on the page that takes you to it.


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## LegLockGuy (Feb 10, 2007)

Still no email?


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## LegLockGuy (Feb 19, 2007)

*crickets chirp*

*ninja's roll*


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## WORDZ3 (Jun 28, 2007)

I trained in Michael Eichenberg's school and in my opinion its nothing more than a McDojo and belt factory. He swore up and down that it wasn't when i signed up, but deep in to my 6 month contract I realized that I hadn't really learned much since I was there and id spent hundreds of dollars. Don't get me wrong, he is a nice guy. But the school has a very cold feeling and definitly is not teaching Ninjutsu. Which is what i signed up for...
i think schools like this take advantage of amature martial artists and people with no experience. Its kind of shady when the Grandmaster of the Martial Art you study has a full time job (*Soke Masaaki Hatsumi *is a chiropracter) to make a living and the american instructors feed thier kids off the art. From my understanding Hatsumi discourages shidoshi from trying to feed themselves off thier students. 

Aikido is cool for show and steven segal movies, but thats about it.

If you look at Tom Maienza's profile you can see that he is only a 4th degree in the Bujinkan. In order to teach anything I think you should at least be a 5th degree. It says something about a student that doesn't want to be tested, weather they believe in the testing system or not. No, rank is not everything, but if you want to learn authentic ninjutsu you have to go to the source. 

Want ninjutsu....find another school. 
Want ninja rangers and train with white belts and 8yr olds...go to Warriors Edge. They will gladly swipe your card.


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## bydand (Jun 28, 2007)

WORDZ3 said:


> I trained in Michael Eichenberg's school and in my opinion its nothing more than a McDojo and belt factory. ...



You know, this is not a very good first post for you.  You may not like the guy, you may even question his ability, but to bash him like this in a public forum is just bad judgment and not really the way this particular forum operates.  Go introduce yourself properly in the Meet & Greet section, take some time to read through the different sections you are interested in.  It will give you a good indication of how things are done here on Martial Talk as opposed to a couple of other MA forums. Hopefully you will not just turn into a mass of red stars and bars. (referring to your "reputation" status shown on the upper right side of each post you do make.)  Something positive to add is always welcome, if you know somebody is a putz, you can rephrase it so it doesn't just sound like the ravings of a madman.  Came close to dinging your rep myself, but the kinder, gentler me :lol: thinks it just may be a shaky start.

Before you ask, I have only met the man one time, so I have no self-interest at all in the matter.



> Aikido is cool for show and steven segal movies, but thats about it.


Guess I miss where this is from.  Are you just trying to tick off as many people as you can with one post?


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## SKB (Jun 28, 2007)

Got to agree with the other reply! Take a deep breath! Then figure out what it is you are trying to say.


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## WORDZ3 (Jun 29, 2007)

In all fairness. I think i'm using the message board for what its intended for. People share thier opinions all day on here. I'm just giving a review of the school, what i think about the character of the people that run it and its just my opinion. Call it bashing, i call it criticism. Take it how ever you want, but if you want to go see for yourself.


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## bydand (Jun 29, 2007)

WORDZ3 said:


> In all fairness. I think i'm using the message board for what its intended for.



In a way, but considering that was your first post and this is your second post, I fail to see how on Earth you would know how THIS board is used and what is considered the "right" way.  Yes this is a great forum for sharing ideas and information, but, while it does happen from time to time, it is not for fraud busting or calling into question a schools instruction or curriculum.




WORDZ3 said:


> People share thier opinions all day on here.



Yes we do, and I also share my opinion. Again though, when somebody digs up a thread that has sat idle for months and their first post is slamming a school and Instructor, one has to wonder just what the agenda is.  Frankly, with a first post like that, I cannot give it much credibility.  






WORDZ3 said:


> I'm just giving a review of the school, what i think about the character of the people that run it and its just my opinion. Call it bashing, i call it criticism. Take it how ever you want, but if you want to go see for yourself.



It doesn't really matter what it is called, or what word is used to describe it.  Kind of goes back to that old saying about how a rose would still be a rose by any other name.  You can call a sewer a hot-tub, still doesn't make me want to get in and sit by one of the "jets".  

Make an introduction in the meet & greet section, let us get to know you and your background a bit.  This is truly a great forum, and there is a vast amount of information to share, just digging up an old thread and then raking the school and Instructors over the coals, isn't sharing information, it IS bashing.


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## WORDZ3 (Jun 30, 2007)

you know what I typed a bunch of things in response, but i erased them because its not worth it. Its pointless to argue on a forum. I have better things to do. 

I hope my comments helped someone who was thinking about training at Warriors Edge. Someone has to say it.


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## bydand (Jun 30, 2007)

Ahhhh damn it, there goes the new kinder gentler me right out the door.  Negitive points for pushing my putz buttons.


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## jks9199 (Jun 30, 2007)

WORDZ3 said:


> In all fairness. I think i'm using the message board for what its intended for. People share thier opinions all day on here. I'm just giving a review of the school, what i think about the character of the people that run it and its just my opinion. Call it bashing, i call it criticism. Take it how ever you want, but if you want to go see for yourself.





WORDZ3 said:


> you know what I typed a bunch of things in response, but i erased them because its not worth it. Its pointless to argue on a forum. I have better things to do.
> 
> I hope my comments helped someone who was thinking about training at Warriors Edge. Someone has to say it.



This is the deal, as I see it...

You have every right to have an opinion about the school and teacher based on your experience.  And it's clear that, for you, it was a very, very negative experience.  You've the right to share your opinion, as well...

But you can do so in a way that is respectful to everyone... or you can do it like the loudmouth ******* in a bar who pisses everyone off by "sharing" their opinion on anything and everything, and trying to win arguments by volume, not reasoning.  But, somehow, I suspect that you probably haven't been in a bar legally yet.

I encourage you to persevere in finding someone who teaches martial arts the way you want to learn them.  There are many resources to find any of the various ninjutsu/ninpo/budo taijutsu systems available here on MT, if you look.  Good hunting!


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## Ceicei (Jun 30, 2007)

WORDZ3,
Be aware that not all people who train there will end up unhappy.  The fact there are some students already training there indicate that some are happy with what they're getting.  Everyone trains for different reasons.  If you do not like it there, then I suggest you go find a martial art school elsewhere more suitable to your preference.

- Ceicei


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## eyebeams (Jul 5, 2007)

WORDZ3 said:


> i think schools like this take advantage of amature martial artists and people with no experience. Its kind of shady when the Grandmaster of the Martial Art you study has a full time job (*Soke Masaaki Hatsumi *is a chiropracter) to make a living and the american instructors feed thier kids off the art. From my understanding Hatsumi discourages shidoshi from trying to feed themselves off thier students.



I find it highly amusing that anyone believes that Hatsumi primarily made his living at bonesetting after the 1980s.


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## SKB (Jul 6, 2007)

I aint trying to start an argument or anything, just would like to know why you are so unhappy about training there? Not just a rant or ramblings what made you so upset? 

And could not ding the guy for his opinion???????????????????????


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## lalom (Jul 6, 2007)

eyebeams said:


> I find it highly amusing that anyone believes that Hatsumi primarily made his living at bonesetting after the 1980s.


 
yeah, is this guy against Ninjutsu as a whole?  Bujinkan Budo?  To-Shin Do?  It's really hard to tell. 

He comes on bashing one school and calls another entirely different art shady referring to it's Grandmaster that is a chiropractor.  What was the point of this guys post? Kinda confused here...


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## bydand (Jul 6, 2007)

SKB said:


> And could not ding the guy for his opinion???????????????????????



Actually I didn't ding him for his opinion at all.  I dinged him for the belligerent and confrontational way he presented it.  I don't care for a few Instructors in our art either, but would NEVER come on a public forum and light them up, I would just choose not to train with them and let it go.  

If somebody asks me about them I will, and HAVE, given my opinion of the art and how  instructor/student relationships are important.  Then tell them to go check it out for themselves and if it doesn't feel  like a match, here are a couple of other instructors that are close to the area and to try them as well.  There is no reason to start a crusade on a forum against someone whom I have a personality conflict with, or a personal belief they are not doing "it" (teaching) for the right reasons.


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## SKB (Jul 7, 2007)

I don't think the guy was starting a crusade or anything like that. He was upset about what he preceived had happened and was venting. I personaly wanted to know the 'whys'. Maybe he just needed to get it off his chest. 

Who cares if he did not follow what some might think is the proper etiquette? Maybe dude just needed someone to exsplain a few things to him. But now he probaly has a bad taste in his mouth about this forum and the people on it and might not read the one peice of information he needed to go on with his training or find someone else to train with. So let's try to lay off dinging people unless they really do something? Not just them doing or saying something you take the wrong way?


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## Doc_Jude (Jul 8, 2007)

bydand said:


> Actually I didn't ding him for his opinion at all.  I dinged him for the belligerent and confrontational way he presented it.  I don't care for a few Instructors in our art either, but would NEVER come on a public forum and light them up, I would just choose not to train with them and let it go.



Hey, I heard Hatsumi-sensei say it himself after he said to be careful who you train with. Someone asked why he didn't do something about the less-than instructors in the Bujinkan. He said,"Why would I? The 'bad' teachers attract the 'bad' students, & then we don't have to deal with them, _neh?_"


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## bydand (Jul 8, 2007)

SKB said:


> Who cares if he did not follow what some might think is the proper etiquette? Maybe dude just needed someone to exsplain a few things to him.



Which is what I tried to do twice.





SKB said:


> So let's try to lay off dinging people unless they really do something? Not just them doing or saying something you take the wrong way?



You do it your way, I'll do it my way thank you.  I do not give out dings very often, but I will when I think they are deserved. NOT when they say things I take the wrong way either, usually when they continue to press a point that is designed to stir the pot.


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## SKB (Jul 8, 2007)

If the dude has something to say he should say it. Let him do it his way and you do it your way thank you!!!!


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## WORDZ3 (Jul 8, 2007)

Looking back at my original post I think I came across a little harsh. So please forgive me for that. Any comments i made are strickly my opinion and thats it. Here are some specific reasons why this school left a bad taste in my mouth. 

1. Being new to martial arts I assumed anything with "ninjutsu" attatched to it was teaching the art based off of Hatsumi's teachings. This school advertises "aiki-ninjutsu". Come to find out, this school is actually NOT associated with Hatsumi and thus in my opinion not teaching what Hatsumi is teaching in Japan. Also come to find out that the previous To-Shin-Do school (Quest Center) folded into this one. (Again not what I wanted). To top it all off the head guy started his own "aiki-ninjutsu" style called "jizaikan" or something and started the school out of the protest against the Bujinkan school. *(I hope this makes sense why i would be unsatisfied)* I wish the history of the school and instructors would have been made known a little more upfront. Yes..its on the website, but not something they highlight. 

2. Most of these guys are only 4th degree black belts in Budo taijutsu. They apparently had a problem with the ranking system, but yet still wear thier belts and stripes. Huh?

2. Contracts. Although nice from a business standpoint, bad from a training standpoint. People should show up to train because they want to, not because they have to. And my point from the previous post was that I feel art of any form, should never be tainted by money. 

3. Training was divided up into "beginners" and "black belt clubs". So beginners only got to train with other beginners. Rarely ever did we switch up partners and rarely did I ever get to train with more advanced students. Something which I think prohibits growth on both ends. We really all have something to learn from each other don't we?

4. I actually found myself training with 12 yr olds. I'm 30...does this make sense? I actually didn't speak up about this and continued my training, but I would expect the teacher to do something. I wasn't paying to "play fight". 

5. They had us repeating this "creed" and "code" ********. Sorry, I have my own creed and code that i repeat on a daily basis. Again, we would do more talking than training in this 45 min sessions. Oh and once that 45min clock was up...class is over. (its called clock watching and common in McDojos)

6. No one really talked to each other here. Didn't seem very friendly..and how could it be when your partner really doesn't want to be there, but is pissed off he has to be there because he's paying for it with his locked in contract?

I didn't mean to "light" anyone up. If your gonna treat things like a business, then be prepared to get critiqued just like a business. Just like if I go to a restaurant and they give bad service I'm gonna tell all my friends not to go to this restaurant. If you want to...see for yourself. Don't take my word for it. Its just my opinion again. I think the way someone runs their business does reflect something about their character so I'll let that speak for itself.


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## SKB (Jul 8, 2007)

WordZ3, thanks for replying and letting us know what happen! I was wondering if you ever brought these things up with the instructors? Sorry the school was not what you thought it would be. Maybe you should look around and see if there is anything near you which would more 'fit' what it is you are looking for? Someone on here might be able to help you out! If not on this forum then maybe on one of the bujikan ones???? 

It took along time for me to find the right people and the right group to train with, so don't lose heart it will come around when it is supposed to!!!!!!


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## bydand (Jul 9, 2007)

Wordz3, thanks for clearing the situation up a bit more.  With a bit more background the complaints make sense and do not just sound like mad rantings.   I hope you have continued on your search for training, and finding a good fit for a dojo.  To steal a phrase my Grandmother used to use, "Don't toss out the baby with the bath water" when it comes to searching for a different place to train.  Bujinkan is of course the direct link to Hatsumi Sensei, but keep in mind that To-Shin-Do instructors are generally a product of the Bujinkan.  At least the ones who have been around for a while.  I have met some really great instructors in the Quest organization, and I have also seen some I wouldn't walk across the street to train with.  I can say the exact same about the Bujinkan.  Good luck on your search.  Oh yeah almost forgot, nice explanation and nice to see background of the "WHY" you were upset, all I was asking.  I have to spread around some more points, but will get back to you for the last post and give back the points I dinged you for.


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## eyebeams (Jul 19, 2007)

WORDZ3 said:


> 1. Being new to martial arts I assumed anything with "ninjutsu" attatched to it was teaching the art based off of Hatsumi's teachings. This school advertises "aiki-ninjutsu". Come to find out, this school is actually NOT associated with Hatsumi and thus in my opinion not teaching what Hatsumi is teaching in Japan.



Lots of Bujinkan people aren't even teaching what Hatsumi teaches, because Hatsumi regularly not only changes his teachings, but changes his statements about what he taught before. Then people ask why Hayes or Manaka or Tanemura do things differently even though it was "always" a certain way, and there are arguments on the internet where people get very, very angry if you quote things that Hatsumi said or wrote before the late 90s.



> Also come to find out that the previous To-Shin-Do school (Quest Center) folded into this one. (Again not what I wanted). To top it all off the head guy started his own "aiki-ninjutsu" style called "jizaikan" or something and started the school out of the protest against the Bujinkan school. *(I hope this makes sense why i would be unsatisfied)* I wish the history of the school and instructors would have been made known a little more upfront. Yes..its on the website, but not something they highlight.



I believe Quest allows Toshindo to be taught as a supplement to anther system, so you might learn the material anyway, but not at the pacing you expect. It depends on the school's priorities. As for "authenticity," see above.



> 2. Most of these guys are only 4th degree black belts in Budo taijutsu. They apparently had a problem with the ranking system, but yet still wear thier belts and stripes. Huh?



The godan (5th degree) test is based on your supposed ESP. Or Hatsumi's. Or something. To prepare for it, you need to be well liked and to show up in Japan. Even people who like the Bujinkan are openly scornful of certain people who have  godan or higher -- like Hayes, for instance. It sure as hell isn't based on technical crispness or fighting ability. There are people who do Budo Taijutsu who can fight -- even people who can fight because of Budo Taijutsu. This has little to do with rank.



> 2. Contracts. Although nice from a business standpoint, bad from a training standpoint. People should show up to train because they want to, not because they have to. And my point from the previous post was that I feel art of any form, should never be tainted by money.



If that's what you want, join a campus martial arts club or one at the Y. It's unrealistic to expect commercial grade facilities from part time teachers. People need to pay the rent. If you join a sport MA school the dynamic is different because of the economics of coaching and competition, but other than that, if somebody has their own school, you're stuck.

In Japan, some people take pride in not making money from martial arts (or take pride in their teachers not doing it), but this is deceptive, given that lots of Japanese masters didn't even get a chance to head a traditional school until the end of their working lives in the first place.



> 3. Training was divided up into "beginners" and "black belt clubs". So beginners only got to train with other beginners. Rarely ever did we switch up partners and rarely did I ever get to train with more advanced students. Something which I think prohibits growth on both ends. We really all have something to learn from each other don't we?
> 
> 4. I actually found myself training with 12 yr olds. I'm 30...does this make sense? I actually didn't speak up about this and continued my training, but I would expect the teacher to do something. I wasn't paying to "play fight".



These things both suck. 



> 5. They had us repeating this "creed" and "code" ********. Sorry, I have my own creed and code that i repeat on a daily basis. Again, we would do more talking than training in this 45 min sessions. Oh and once that 45min clock was up...class is over. (its called clock watching and common in McDojos)



If you don't want to perform ceremonies associated with a belief system outside of your heritage and personal invention, you are categorically unsuited for Toshindo or any Ninpo schools, period. Toshindo uses Americanized Tendai as part of its teaching structure and the Bujinkan has its own elements.

On the other hand, I have no idea how anyone could learn anything in 45 minutes.



> 6. No one really talked to each other here. Didn't seem very friendly..and how could it be when your partner really doesn't want to be there, but is pissed off he has to be there because he's paying for it with his locked in contract?



Maybe.



> I didn't mean to "light" anyone up. If your gonna treat things like a business, then be prepared to get critiqued just like a business. Just like if I go to a restaurant and they give bad service I'm gonna tell all my friends not to go to this restaurant. If you want to...see for yourself. Don't take my word for it. Its just my opinion again. I think the way someone runs their business does reflect something about their character so I'll let that speak for itself.



It doesn't sound like a great school, but some of your issues are not likely to be improved elsewhere, at least with ninpo.


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## Jutoshi (Jul 19, 2007)

Hello everyone.
I usually do not spend time in chat rooms or forums but this particular forum was brought to my attention and I thought I should reply.

I am the owner of Warrior's Edge Martial Arts and have studied ninjutsu since 1981.  I have been exposed to Bujinkan ninjutsu, Kasumi-An ninjutsu, To-Shin Do and now Aiki Ninjutsu.  I have dedicated my life to training in this style of martial art and my sole purpose is to help spread the word of ninjutsu to as many people as possible.  

I have trained for years with the original three American Shihan as well as Shiraishi sensei.  I actually had the pleasure of taking a 5th dan test with Shiraishi here in the U.S. when he was visiting our dojo and passed 6 times but it "didn't count" because I wasn't in Japan and he wasn't "allowed" to officially give the test or teach in the U.S.  

I have dedicated my life to protecting others.  I was a U.S. Marine Security Forces Team Member & Prisoner Chaser, a graduate of ESI (Executive Security International) and served on a protection team for a multi-billionaire.  My goal is to help as many people become self sufficient in protecting themselves as possible.

The entire philosophy of our dojo is the improvement of self and the protection of self and others.  I feel we have a very friendly dojo (this is backed up by the unsolicited comments I get from most of my students), despite what this student's experience might have been.  I believe I know who this person is (Rusty?) and if I am right I have to say that he never stayed around long enough to develop friendships with other students.  He would show up and leave immediately after class.  I have 100 students who are 80 percent adults.  When classes begin I instruct students to find a training partner that they feel comfortable with.  If you don't like training with someone you would choose someone else.  If someone doesn't like the partner they are dealing with I will change them out if I notice.  If they don't say anything or look to be getting a good training experience then I will leave them alone.  We do this in the "beginner's" class because a lot of people have never taken martial arts before and are uncomfortable being punched at and thrown to the ground.  In our other classes people are encouraged to change partners and are put in a circle where the entire class attacks them so that they can get practice against different body types.

As far as Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu not teaching Ninjutsu, that is hard for me to understand.  The "beginner's" class may seem Aikijujutsu "heavy".  We teach the aiki kihon happo which are 8 techniques that teach principles that you will need to internalize and use with every technique thereafter.  New students must show how to do these techniques against a cross wrist grab, same side wrist grab, punch, kick and lapel grab before moving onto the next technique.  The techniques include muso dori, hon gyaku, take ori, omote shuto, as well as two Aikijutsu throws Shiho Nage and Irimi Nage.  The students also learn ukemi (rolls and body drops), ninjutsu "16 fists", sword cuts, warm up with the Go-Gyo and practice Muto Dori (unarmed against a sword techniques) (ichimonji, jumoni, and hira no kata).  So I ask...how is this not ninjutsu?  I find it interesting that this person had no ninjutsu experience but felt we didn't teach ninjutsu and just 2 weeks ago I had a Bujinkan visitor from Atlanta stop in and train with us and tell me he learned enough in one class to give him material for 6 months of training.  This is a person who has trained in the Bujinkan and To-Shin Do for over 20 years and holds a Dan ranking.

The beginner's class is 3-4 months long if the student shows up 2-3 times a week and focuses on their training while in class.  I am confused on the comments about how I talk too much.  Our classes are run in a very strict time management way so that the student gets as much time as possible to train and acquire repetition.  We start by saying our Creed and Warrior Code.  In the beginner's class we only say the Creed and 4 sentences of the Code so it takes about 1 minute.  We then do the Go Gyo and sword cuts as a warm up and then it is right into ukemi and striking practice.  We end each class with 20-25 minutes of just technique practice.  Most people are sweating and smiling when they leave.

The "black belt club" class follows or precedes the beginner's class so students get a 15 minute break and then train for another 45 minutes.  If a yellow belt wants to join Master's Club they can stay for weapons class (sword, knife, bo, hanbo, kusarifundo, shuriken) and master's class (Ninpo Kihon Happo, Kime Waza, 30 move ground flow drill, and multiple attacker and gun defenses).  This would give them 4 classes in a row that they could participate in that are all teaching ninjutsu.

I personally hold a To-Shin Do 3rd dan and was invited to take my 4th dan before I left the organization.  I also hold a 5th dan in Aiki Ninjutsu which is the belt I wear in class since that is what I teach.  I personally don't put a lot of emphasis on belts for myself but when running a school rank is important because people coming in the door are also talking to Korean 8th dans about where to train.

We do have contracts.  Most dojos do in America.  I teach in Naperville, IL which is one of the most expensive areas in the U.S.  I have to pay the rent and utilities so having contracts helps in that area.  Just so everyone knows I have a 90 day out in all of my contracts.  Once a student tells me they are leaving they are only responsible for the next 90 days and then I cancel the membership.  No questions asked.  I have only had 3 people (including this person) in five years leave because they felt we didn't teach Ninjutsu.  None of them had trained in Ninjutsu before.

I have been hired by local law enforcement agencies, the ATF, high schools and other businesses in the area to come in and teach realistic self defense as well as how to use the warrior secrets in life.  I have local and federal law enforcement officers who are regular students and they all have prior martial arts experience, one with an 8th dan in another martial art!  They all feel that what we teach is effective and authentic.

To address his attack on my character...no...I don't even have to do that, I think his posts say enough about his.

I would like to close this post by saying thanks for reading my side of the "story".  I hope that this person finds what they are looking for in a martial art and that in the future they don't slander others for no reason.  I know he didn't need our Code but we have a couple parts that say:
*I thoughtfully express the truth, I avoid the confusion of dishonest words.*

  [FONT=&quot]and

[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]I encourage all to speak purposefully from the heart, I avoid the dull contentment of gossip and small talk.

[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]These might be something that he would like to think about adding to his Code.



I hope you all have the best experiences as you travel along the warrior path!
Ninpo Ikkan!

 [/FONT]


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## LegLockGuy (Jul 19, 2007)

Jutoshi, very honorable of you to come and say your side of the story. And that's what is important, is getting both sides of a story.

Also Jotoshi I was wondering if I could go off topic for a second, and ask about your style of Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu.

1) How well rounded is your style? (such as outside striking, inside striking, clinching, throwing, groundfighting?)

2) Do you or any of your students compete in competitions? Are they allowed to?

3) What's your belt ranking system like?

4)  Do you think the Ninjutsu, Toshindo, and Aikijutsu are blended well in your style?

5) What is sparring like? Level of contact? Rules?


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## SKB (Jul 19, 2007)

Jotoshi-thank you for your post!!

eyebeams? 


> I believe Quest allows Toshindo to be taught.....


 


> If you don't want to perform ceremonies associated with a belief system outside of your heritage and personal invention, you are categorically unsuited for Toshindo or any Ninpo schools, period. Toshindo uses Americanized Tendai as part of its teaching structure and the Bujinkan has its own elements.


 
"catagorically unsuited" I train with people of all faiths in TSD???? Also where I train at if......if you were uncomfortable with somthing like this no one would want you to do it nor make you feel bad if you wish to not do it!!!!!!!!!



> The godan (5th degree) test is based on your supposed ESP. Or Hatsumi's. Or something.


 
I beleive it is founded on your ability to detect the intent of the attacker to cleve your head into.


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## Jutoshi (Jul 20, 2007)

LegLockGuy,

I would be happy to answer your questions.

1.  I feel that the style of Jizaikan is very well rounded.  Our basic philosophy is that of going on the offensive as soon as possible.  We do all types of striking, inside and outside as well as throws, locks, breaks, submissions, ground fighting, historical ninja and samurai weapons as well as modern day weapons training.  I feel that we teach a lot more advanced techniques earlier in the curriculum than To-Shin Do does.  I was a senior instructor for To-Shin Do and ran a Quest center for 3 years.  The system of Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu teaches white belts and above how to throw and lock up your opponent with all of the techniques taught.  It is dangerous to strike someone and throw them away so that they can get back up and come at you again.  There are techniques in Aiki Ninjutsu that our students learn as yellow belts that To-Shin Do teaches as Sandan techniques.

I have found the aiki principles that have been added to the ninjutsu techniques make them even more effective with even less effort required to finish an attacker.  I have always been a ninjutsu practitioner that used the least amount of force necessary to take control of a situation and that is how I received my warrior name of Jutoshi "Warrior of the supple or gentle blade" because I use correct form and taijutsu instead of strength and speed to win.

2.  Do we compete?  No we are not about competition.  Competition actually is the opposite of what we train on because it is ego driven and we work on getting rid of our ego.  If my students want to compete that is up to them.  I actually have a student who was almost accepted to Pride before it was sold and disbanded.  I was supposed to go and help out at the fight.  I am not against MMA, I just don't see that as real warrior training.  Fighters and warriors are different mentalities.  I am a warrior and have never been interested in being a fighter.  You can read an article on my opinions on this subject on my MySpace page.

3.  When Kancho Maienza created the Jizaikan he wanted to keep it traditional and have 9 kyu ranks.  We figured that it would suit American students better to have the "rainbow belts" found in other popular martial arts.  Our rank system goes White, Yellow, Orange, Purple, Blue, Green, Red, Brown, Brown w/black stripe and black.  We have 10 degrees of dan ranks and 10th degree is actually a white belt with blue kanji and writing to symbolize making a full circle.  At each Kyu level the student is working on a specific "secret" or skill set that they must internalize before they move on to the next level.  There are 36 secrets in our system.  4 sets of 9.  The first set is on doing strong and effective techniques.  The second is on how to "destroy" an opponent.  The third is on dealing with multiple attackers and the last 9 are on leading an empowered life.  This is what Mr. Maienza has brought to Ninjutsu.  These are the lessons he has learned from training with all of the Shihan in Ninjutsu and also his training in the other martial arts he has black belts in.  This is a systematic way of teaching students things that only a few people have been able to "steal" from the Bujinkan and To-Shin Do systems.

4.  I don't have any ranking or official training in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu so I can't say how much has been blended into the techniques.  All I can say is that training with Mr. Maienza has taken my martial arts abilities to a level I never thought possible.  We teach all of the Ninjutsu techniques from all of the Ryu Ha.  At Shodan our students have to memorize and demonstrate the entire Koto Ryu Shoden scroll without looking at notes as well as the Kuki Shin Kuji No Bo katas.  At each black belt level the students will study a different lineage and be responsible for internalizing the material.  

The whole idea of Jizaikan is Honor, Integrity and Mastery.  There are too many students in the other organizations that have been given belts and have not mastered anything.  This is the reason that the Jizaikan was formed.  I know that it might be a fantasy but wouldn't it be neat if when you saw someone with a black belt you knew that they deserved it?

5.  We do not do any sport sparring.  We do Randori though.  We have designated attackers and defenders but we work up to real life situations such as being in a ground fight and the attacker pulls a knife or gun or has friends who jump in and start fighting.  In our black belt classes we use head gear and gloves along with other protective gear so that we can go quicker and still be safe.

I hope this answers your questions.  

I enjoy sharing information about Ninjutsu and Aiki Ninjutsu.  The best way to learn about something is to experience it.  I have had quite a few Bujinkan and To Shin Do students train with me and all of them have left feeling like they have learned something.  I feel that way with Mr. Maienza and as long as he is willing and has things to teach me I am going to "steal" from him as much as I can and pass it on to as many students as I can!

Be Safe and Have Fun!
Jutoshi


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## eyebeams (Jul 20, 2007)

SKB said:


> Jotoshi-thank you for your post!!
> 
> "catagorically unsuited" I train with people of all faiths in TSD???? Also where I train at if......if you were uncomfortable with somthing like this no one would want you to do it nor make you feel bad if you wish to not do it!!!!!!!!!


 
All I'm saying is that if a student is opposed to absorbing an ideology or ethos or repeating a vow or creed, ninpo isn't the way to go. You could remove any creeds or dojo kun, but with Toshindo, the ranking structure is based on esoteric Buddhist pedagogy and symbolism. It really depends on the individual's tolerance. But I will say that if someone has problems with making a wholly secular statement about their commitment to the school's practices, how much tolerance are they going to have for the rest of it?

Being in business doesn't mean that the teacher capitulates to the student in all aspects of instruction.



> I beleive it is founded on your ability to detect the intent of the attacker to cleve your head into.



Enh. I've also read that it's about the student specifically reading Hatsumi's intent, even when the actual test is delivered by somebody else.


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## SKB (Jul 20, 2007)

Ok you lost me??? I train in TSD, nobody has thrust anything down my throat or forced me to give up or alter my personal beliefs??? I have been training for several years now so I'm not "new". 

Are not all the diffrent forms/styles/systems of martial arts based off of someone elses idea of how to present the information or the manner in which the world interacts? Someone thought starting with a white belt was a good idea. So we should toss out all martial arts who use a white belt as a starting point since some guy some where came up with the idea??? Should we wear gi's if these are not the clothes our society does not wear? Maybe we should toss out all martial arts which wear clothing not like ours???

Where I train at the instructors have their "real" jobs to feed themselves and the Dojo has more of an extended family feel then a business feel to the place. 



> ......the teacher capitulates to the student in all aspects of instruction


 
I never said anything along these lines and I apoligize if this is the way it came across. There are standards of skill level, for lack of a better way of saying it, but you are not made to do things you do not want to do. Such as, if you do not want to preform a drill due to an injury nobody is going to try and force you. Not into the meditation thing? OK don't meditate. The art is yours, to make it yours.


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## rutherford (Jul 20, 2007)

Jutoshi said:


> We teach all of the Ninjutsu techniques from all of the Ryu Ha.



You don't have to say anything more for me to be absolutely sure that you are a liar.


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## Jutoshi (Jul 20, 2007)

By "all of the Ryu Ha" I was referring to all of the lineages that have been taught so far by Soke Hatsumi.  Anyone who is a legitimate ninjutsu practitioner knows that there are those lineages that have not been taught out of the nine that Hatsumi is Soke of.

We actually teach Kuki Shin Ryu as well as Kuki Shinden Ryu.  The Kuki Shin family is still around and teaching even though the Bujinkan normally teaches the techniques that Takamatsu wrote down after the scrolls burned.  There are quite a few differences.

To call someone a liar is an easy thing to do when you are on the other side of a monitor.  Now you know why I try not to spend too much time in forums.  A lot of "experts" with attitudes.  I prefer to spend my time training instead of arguing with these "knowledgeable people".

I hope you all enjoy your training in whatever style of martial arts you decide to study.  Every style has something to offer.


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## eyebeams (Jul 21, 2007)

SKB said:


> Ok you lost me??? I train in TSD, nobody has thrust anything down my throat or forced me to give up or alter my personal beliefs??? I have been training for several years now so I'm not "new".



The poster I responded to said he didn't want to say the dojo kun ("warrior creed" or whatever). Somebody who can't bring themselves to say the dojo kun is likely  to have much less tolerance than most people for working with other people's philosophies.

Aside from that, it's based on your definition of "personal beliefs." I seriously doubt a hardline fundamentalist Christian could tolerate TSD for long, since its structure is based on what fundamentalists believe to be Satanic.

My point is that no teacher is responsible for the variety of standards in North American culture. An abstract "warrior creed" is not a legitimate basis to criticize a school unless it includes something really dumb, like vowing to give 10% of your income to the teacher or something. If it's not like that and you still don't want to say it, you don't complain -- you just don't attend.



> Where I train at the instructors have their "real" jobs to feed themselves and the Dojo has more of an extended family feel then a business feel to the place.


 
I don't think the model makes much of a difference. There are a lot of dysfunctional "families" out there and a lot of excellent professional teachers.


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## Raizan (Jul 21, 2007)

rutherford said:


> You don't have to say anything more for me to be absolutely sure that you are a liar.


 

Real classy there guy...and what info do you have to back up your statement? Do you have facts, or just some personal beliefs or opinions? More importantly, just what did Jutoshi say that you found to be so false? I would hope that it's something substantial, seeing as to how you are assaulting a man's integrity and character.


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## Raizan (Jul 21, 2007)

WORDZ3 said:


> If you look at Tom Maienza's profile you can see that he is only a 4th degree in the Bujinkan. In order to teach anything I think you should at least be a 5th degree. It says something about a student that doesn't want to be tested, weather they believe in the testing system or not. No, rank is not everything, but if you want to learn authentic ninjutsu you have to go to the source.


 
If you are that concerned about rank, and the ever important 5th degree, then you should know that Tom Maienza was a 5th dan under Stephen Hayes himself, and was Hayes' first Hambu Shihan. To be honest to make light of someone for *ONLY* being a 4th degree (when you yourself claim to be an amature) doesn't seem to be very responsible. I have had the oppurtunity to train with Mr. Maienza as well as Jutoshi on quite a few occasions and they are both skilled and well rounded individuals, and I have enjoyed my time training with them. I'm sorry that your experiences were not up to your lofty standards, but as a practicing Martial artist for the past 17 years, I can say that I learned more in 6 months at that school than I did in 6 years at other more well known schools! I'm not sure what you mean by going to the source, as both Jutoshi and Mr. Maienza are well respected in the Ninpo community.  

Just thought I'd share, you have all heard two opposing viewpoints. If you're sitting on the fence why don't you stop on by to the school and check it out ... And Wordz,I hope you find enjoyment at some dojo / dojang out there.


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## jks9199 (Jul 21, 2007)

eyebeams said:


> The poster I responded to said he didn't want to say the dojo kun ("warrior creed" or whatever). Somebody who can't bring themselves to say the dojo kun is likely to have much less tolerance than most people for working with other people's philosophies.
> 
> Aside from that, it's based on your definition of "personal beliefs." I seriously doubt a hardline fundamentalist Christian could tolerate TSD for long, since its structure is based on what fundamentalists believe to be Satanic.
> 
> My point is that no teacher is responsible for the variety of standards in North American culture. An abstract "warrior creed" is not a legitimate basis to criticize a school unless it includes something really dumb, like vowing to give 10% of your income to the teacher or something. If it's not like that and you still don't want to say it, you don't complain -- you just don't attend.


 
Just how is the basis of Tang Soo Do, Toshindo, or any other martial art "Satanic?"  I'd accept pagan, especially for arts with a greater religious component, but saying "Satanic" is more than a bit of stretch.

I don't see a problem with school creeds or other statements of tenets and principles in general.  In specific cases -- maybe.  As you suggest, if you don't agree with the philosophy or moral principles in a given martial art, go elsewhere.


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## eyebeams (Jul 21, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Just how is the basis of Tang Soo Do, Toshindo, or any other martial art "Satanic?"  I'd accept pagan, especially for arts with a greater religious component, but saying "Satanic" is more than a bit of stretch.



It's not my religion, so don't ask me for it to make sense. But it's a fact that Toshindo includes symbolism derived from esoteric Buddhism and according to fundamentalist dogma, that's Satanic.


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## SKB (Jul 21, 2007)

eyebeams, let me see if I got this right........ you do not train in TSD? Have you ever? You are not christian?



> It's not my religion, so don't ask me for it to make sense. But it's a fact that Toshindo includes symbolism derived from esoteric Buddhism and according to fundamentalist dogma, that's Satanic.


 
Yet you have some very strong ideas about both? I'm sorry did I miss something? I'm not going to tell you all about basket weaving since I do not know a dang thing about it and have never taken one lesson on it! Just like I wouldn't make any assumptions about an eskimo's religion since I do not practice it.

Many people at my dojo practice different religions and choose to take part in some parts of the spiritual practice of TSD and not others, but that is up to the individual.  There is not judgement or rule on what is right or wrong. To call any part of it satanic is realy just ............ I wont get insulting.........


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## bydand (Jul 21, 2007)

eyebeams said:


> Aside from that, it's based on your definition of "personal beliefs." I seriously doubt a hardline fundamentalist Christian could tolerate TSD for long, since its structure is based on what fundamentalists believe to be Satanic.



Member of the 1st school other than Dayton to make the switch to TSD from the Bujinkan and still counting, so I don't know how much longer I can tolerate it.  




eyebeams said:


> It's not my religion, so don't ask me for it to make sense. But it's a fact that Toshindo includes symbolism derived from esoteric Buddhism and according to fundamentalist dogma, that's Satanic.



OK, eyebeams this is where you go horribly wrong with your preconceived ideas.  I happen to enjoy training in To-Shin-Do, I also happen to have been raised in a "hardline fundamentalist Christian" household and still hold those beliefs.  My younger brother also trains TSD, not only does he train in TSD, but has been an instructor for many years as well.  He started teaching the children's classes under John Poliquin and Brett Varnum when they both were still in Presque Isle, ME.  He now owns his own school and still teaches TSD after practicing the art from it's "roll-out" when the switch was made from Bujinkan to TSD.  How does this all add up with the family you may ask?  Well, my Mother and Father (who is an ordained minister in a Fundamentalist Christian Church) happens to NEVER miss a promotion or special time at the Dojo, and backs up the training 100%.  Does that mean we happen to believe Buddhism is the way to go?  No it doesn't, it just means we are mature enough to look past the rhetoric  spewed by a few and look with our own eyes, opened and seeing, and make an informed decision.  Satanic?- not unless you make it that way.  Same as a dollar bill or anything else you can think of; anything can be "evil" or "satanic" if used wrong or abused to the point of obsession.


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## LegLockGuy (Jul 21, 2007)

Jutoshi I have one problem with one of your answers. I could not find any fighter listing Jizaikan as their fighting style. You said one of your students was going to fight in PRIDE FC. What is his name and what was his fight record.


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## Jutoshi (Jul 23, 2007)

LegLockGuy,

I talked with my student to find out more information to answer the questions you had and this is what I received...

 _"I was in contact with Turi Altavilla of Dream Stage Entertainment (the former parent company of PRIDE). Originally, I was shooting for the PRIDE spin off series called The B.E.S.T. but they only did 2 shows. Turi was the one who asked me to send in my information as well as a video of myself in action. Since then, I have been in contact with ICON, and I am hoping to get my opportunity when I get better. _(He is referring to medical conditions he has to get taken care of.) _

As for my record,I claimed 12 on my K-1 Heroes applicationAnd just so that guy knows, I always listed my style as Ninjutsu which is why he would never see a Jizaikan fighter listed. There is also the fact that since I never officially fought in PRIDE, I would not be listed on their roster.

Hope that helps..."_
Out of respect I am not going to give out his name since I didn't ask for his permission first.
I personally do not follow MMA too closely so I am not too familiar with the different organizations and such.  I, like a lot of people today, enjoy watching UFC, Pride and other MMA contests but I am not a sport martial artist.


I can tell you that my student above also practices submission fighting at another school to help him prepare for the fights.


Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu covers basic ground fighting techniques in the event a student finds themselves on the ground with a person they do not want to harm such as a friend or relative.  If you are attacked by an unknown assailant, I would not recommend trying to submit them and play to their strengths.  The statistic in the U.S. is that if a male is attacked it is usually 3 on 1.  If you are on the ground trying to ground fight someone their 2 friends will be kicking and stomping you if not something worse like stabbing you.  We teach to get up as soon as possible and do what you need to do to escape.

Hope this helps with the questions you had.

Jutoshi


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## Jac1972 (Jul 31, 2009)

Wow, was interesting to find this thread.  I ran a google search to see if a jizaikan center had opened in Missouri for my sister-in-law and found this link.  I've read through the post and hope nothing else has come of this.  Mike is a great guy.  I trained with him at the Naperville Quest Center for about 6 months before it became Warriors Edge, and then for about 2 years thereafter.  I always found him to be incredibly knowledgable and the consumate professional.  For anyone who may get this post, all I can say about the jizaikan system is that when I moved away from the area and had to stop taking classes I sincerely felt a loss.  I tried taking akido classes and grappling classes, but it was not the same.  No school that I have tried teaches as much as Warriors Edge.  At this dojo I was able to be very involved - attended classes 3 to 4 days per week for 3 to 4 classes each day I was there and during those classes I learned more in the first 6 weeks than I ever did in the 6 months I trained in toshindo.

I can assure anyone who decides to try jizaikan that you will not be disappointed.  There are things Mike teaches at Warriors Edge that no one else in this area teaches - particularly weapons training.  The grappling class I took was good, but not nearly as educational - I learned much more, much faster with Mike.

Hope this is helpful.


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## Jade Tigress (Aug 1, 2009)

Jac1972 said:


> Wow, was interesting to find this thread.  I ran a google search to see if a jizaikan center had opened in Missouri for my sister-in-law and found this link.  I've read through the post and hope nothing else has come of this.  Mike is a great guy.  I trained with him at the Naperville Quest Center for about 6 months before it became Warriors Edge, and then for about 2 years thereafter.  I always found him to be incredibly knowledgable and the consumate professional.  For anyone who may get this post, all I can say about the jizaikan system is that when I moved away from the area and had to stop taking classes I sincerely felt a loss.  I tried taking akido classes and grappling classes, but it was not the same.  No school that I have tried teaches as much as Warriors Edge.  At this dojo I was able to be very involved - attended classes 3 to 4 days per week for 3 to 4 classes each day I was there and during those classes I learned more in the first 6 weeks than I ever did in the 6 months I trained in toshindo.
> 
> I can assure anyone who decides to try jizaikan that you will not be disappointed.  There are things Mike teaches at Warriors Edge that no one else in this area teaches - particularly weapons training.  The grappling class I took was good, but not nearly as educational - I learned much more, much faster with Mike.
> 
> Hope this is helpful.



Thanks for the info and welcome to Martial Talk!


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