# Home Invasions



## MJS (Jun 8, 2007)

While watching the News this morning, they mentioned a home invasion.  There is a small article in the paper, and I'm sure more will follow as the investigation continues.  Apparently the home owner stabbed one of the intruders who apparently died of his injuries.  The other suspect got away.  

In the event something like this was to happen at your house, what safety measures do you have in place?  

How would you handle a situation like this?

Do you feel that the homeowner was in the right for stabbing one of the suspects?


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## kaizasosei (Jun 8, 2007)

that is a really tough question.  i don't know.
but i do think that killing a human being is never a perfect move.  bloodshed often brings more bloodshed and their is also natural feeling of guilt that often sets in.  nowadays there is more pressure and opportunity for reflection than back in time when a human life was not always properly valued.  even then, people learned to value life.
idealy, punishments should fit the crime.  
 but on the other hand, the homeowner successfully defended his space. no telling what i might do if confronted by three attackers in the shadows of my own home.
whatever, i don't want to beat myself up too much considering the possibilities. 
i think, i would try to capture the intruder(s), tie him up or something.  maybe easier said than done.


if a big tree falls in an empty forest, does it make a sound.?..
j


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## tellner (Jun 8, 2007)

First off, the homeowner was absolutely in the right. Someone who breaks into your home is putting you in danger. You don't have the luxury of sitting back and calmly assessing exactly how much of a risk it is. 

Do we have plans? Certainly. We have more windows than is absolutely secure but only two doors. Anyone coming in is going to make some noise. If we don't hear it the two German Shepherds will. Our older one has already driven away burglars. If the invaders don't speak Alsatian - and odds are they will - we have prepared positions set up with cover (brick chimney on one side, mild steel plate and expanded copper in the wall on the other) and concealment at the top of the stairs. The bad guys will have to come around at least one corner and up the stairs into enfilade fire to get to us. There are also cell phones to call the police.

I'm considering getting a couple remotely triggerable OC ceiling canisters - porch, back porch and a couple strategic locations on the ground floor and basement - if my native paranoia takes a tick upwards. I doubt that the *******s will bring gas masks. 

Speaking of gas masks we have 'em after the last nearby toxics spill. We also have first aid supplies and fire extinguishers in well-known locations and other items suitable for serious social occasions accessible in every room of the house. Not all of them go 'bang'.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 8, 2007)

You know in Michigan particularly in my county there have been alot of thefts and larceny recently due to the poor economy.  Heck we just had a supposed boyfriend of a woman set her up with two buddies so they could steal $800 from her.  Fortunately they were all caught!  

So home invasion is a very, very important personal protection situation to carefully think through so that you have multiple defenses.

First I would recommend the following:

-Monitored alarm system with motion detectors and signage posted outside stating so. (also audible alarm inside to scare and or warn or impending danger)
-Dog or dog's as they are the age old alarm system that is still very effective.
-Besides alarm system a person designated to call 911.
-family safe area to meet.
-Tactical tools to meet the challenge that are locked and yet easily assessible. (ie. shotgun, handgun, push dagger, knife, collapsible baton, etc.)
-Game plan to implement tactical tools and defense and a plan to get everyone to a family safe area.

That is a good game plan for the start and other people feel free to chime in.


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## MJS (Jun 8, 2007)

At this time, I have no more info. than what I posted.  In cases like this, I like to hear the whole story, but then again, the media has a knack for editing stories, so chances are, we may not know what really went down.

There have been discussions on here in the past, about whether or not you could bring yourself to kill someone.  Then again, take a look at the SD moves in many systems.  Eye gouges, groin hits, hits to the throat, face, and all over the body....all of which could lead to serious injury.  People like the one in the article are coming into a home uninvited.  Therefore, IMO, they deserve what they get.  What would I do?  Don't know, as I've never been in that situation and I hope I never am.  I would think that calling the police would be the first step.  It'll be interesting to see how this unfolds.

Mike


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## MJS (Jun 8, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> First I would recommend the following:
> 
> -Monitored alarm system with motion detectors and signage posted outside stating so. (also audible alarm inside to scare and or warn or impending danger)
> -Dog or dog's as they are the age old alarm system that is still very effective.
> ...


 
Great points as usual Brian!  I have an alarm which is on at night.  I have a dog, so being the curious one he is, I'm sure something would get his attention.  My wife has her cell phone in her purse, so in the event phone lines were cut, we're not cut off from the outside.  No knives or guns upstairs, but lots of impact weapons.   An old baseball bat in the closet and a number of Arnis sticks.   Not as good as a gun, but better than nothing.


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## MJS (Jun 8, 2007)

tellner said:


> I'm considering getting a couple remotely triggerable OC ceiling canisters - porch, back porch and a couple strategic locations on the ground floor and basement - if my native paranoia takes a tick upwards. I doubt that the *******s will bring gas masks.


 
Now thats an interesting thought!  This is something thats available to the public?  Just curious as I've never heard of them before, but certainly a great tool!


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## tellner (Jun 8, 2007)

MJS, if people breaking into your house and attacking you isn't justification to use deadly force I don't know what is. Seriously. Deadly seriously. Think about it long and hard right now and make the Decision because it will be way too late to do complicated Deontic Calculus when the fewmets hit the air circulation device. If you can't honestly, deep in your soul, say "I would kill him if I or my loved ones were at risk" not "I might, depending, maybe in theory after carefully considering all options" get rid of the weapons and forget about martial arts as self defense.

Consider that any animal will defend its lair. And it will do it ferociously. Oh, there will be a back exit somewhere so that it can leave if it has to. But that is where it will make its stand and pull out all the stops. Even a big, fierce pit bull thinks twice about going into a little dog's house. Our cat chases squirrels. But she would never beard the squirrel in its den. She's not suicidal. The cat and the pitbull understand the score. It astounds (and appalls) me that civilization has made us forget it. 

"If a man breaks into your house in the night and you are afraid, kill him and leave his body until morning. His own blood is on him."

"Someone broke into the lodge and was killed. Whose hand was on the bow?"

Feudal Japanese society was incredibly oppressive to women. Female warriors? You've got to be kidding. But noblewomen were trained in various weapons, particularly the naginata, to defend the home. Everyone understood that when the house was attacked the normal rules did not apply, and everyone had a right and duty to protect it by whatever means were necessary.

Deterrence depends on the bad guy's belief that whatever he wants is not worth what he's going to have to pay to get it. If he's willing to break into an occupied home he's already heavily invested and doesn't care much about the legal consequences. You *must* assume that he is willing to kill you and that you and everyone else in the house are "in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or serious bodily injury". If you want him to go away the perceived cost of him continuing must be very, very high. Lights, locks, alarms and barking dogs help raise the cost before the crime. They make him think "Y'know maybe the house down the street will be less trouble." 

Once he steps across the threshold it becomes infinitely more serious. At that point the cost has to be "If I don't run away I am going to die." And that, sad to say, only works if you believe it as much as he does. If you're willing to tear his head off and beat him to death with it there's a chance you won't have to. If you aren't you have to assume that he will pick up on that as well. 

The dogs and the OC canisters are not something I rely on to stop the bad guys. The dogs are a deterrent before the invasion starts. Afterwards it's their job to "Bite the Bad Strangers and make them go away." That means that our beloved dogs will probably die slowing the Bad Strangers down and giving us a couple clear shots. That's been the Arrangement between man and dog for about 100,000 years. We aren't planning on sitting back and saying "The dogs will take care of it." 

The OC is more of the same. I would never count on it as a defense. But there's a chance that it will break the scumbags' script enough to get them thinking of easier pickings elsewhere, especially since it's mysteriously coming out of nowhere before they've even seen us. And if they've had a chance to breathe in a bit of it, cough a little and enjoy reduced vision and confusion it will give us an advantage in the gun and knife fight we were going to get into anyway. If it works, great. We didn't have to shoot, stab or bludgeon anyone. Break out the champagne. If it didn't (and that's our default position) we have a little bit of an edge.


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## MJS (Jun 8, 2007)

tellner said:


> MJS, if people breaking into your house and attacking you isn't justification to use deadly force I don't know what is. Seriously. Deadly seriously. Think about it long and hard right now and make the Decision because it will be way too late to do complicated Deontic Calculus when the fewmets hit the air circulation device. If you can't honestly, deep in your soul, say "I would kill him if I or my loved ones were at risk" not "I might, depending, maybe in theory after carefully considering all options" get rid of the weapons and forget about martial arts as self defense.


 
Don't know where you got the impression that I thought otherwise.  Post #2 seemed like they had some doubt as to whether or not killing would be a wise move.  Look at my post #5.  I stated many of our SD techs. have potentially lethal moves in them, and that someone who breaks into a house gets what they deserve.  Perhaps you're confused when I said I don't know what I'd do.  What I mean is, we can all armchair QB what we'd do if someone throws a punch at us, a kick, grabs us, pulls a blade, etc.  We have our moves, techs. etc., but until things actually start to unfold, we don't know what the 'right' response will be.  I can have 2 people throw a punch at me, 1 being some street punk and 1 being a drunk relative or friend.  Should I react the same to both?  I react to whats presented to me at the time, because its different every time and changes constantly.  I think I've used the saying, "I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6." many times on here, so if that doesn't tell you my views, I don't know what does. 



> Consider that any animal will defend its lair. And it will do it ferociously. Oh, there will be a back exit somewhere so that it can leave if it has to. But that is where it will make its stand and pull out all the stops. Even a big, fierce pit bull thinks twice about going into a little dog's house. Our cat chases squirrels. But she would never beard the squirrel in its den. She's not suicidal. The cat and the pitbull understand the score. It astounds (and appalls) me that civilization has made us forget it.


 
Defend whats rightfully theirs.  I agree with this.  Again, many times on here, I've seen threads where people say, "If you're confronted and someone wants your car, give it to them!"  I usually say, well ya know what...nothing is stopping this guy from killing me after he takes my car, so why not fight for what belongs to me!!




> Deterrence depends on the bad guy's belief that whatever he wants is not worth what he's going to have to pay to get it. If he's willing to break into an occupied home he's already heavily invested and doesn't care much about the legal consequences. You *must* assume that he is willing to kill you and that you and everyone else in the house are "in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or serious bodily injury". If you want him to go away the perceived cost of him continuing must be very, very high. Lights, locks, alarms and barking dogs help raise the cost before the crime. They make him think "Y'know maybe the house down the street will be less trouble."


 
Agree.  I'd go so far as to say that IMO, the above statement applies to any scum bag that robs, steals, rapes, etc.  If they honestly cared, they wouldn't do it in the first place.




> The dogs and the OC canisters are not something I rely on to stop the bad guys. The dogs are a deterrent before the invasion starts. Afterwards it's their job to "Bite the Bad Strangers and make them go away." That means that our beloved dogs will probably die slowing the Bad Strangers down and giving us a couple clear shots. That's been the Arrangement between man and dog for about 100,000 years. We aren't planning on sitting back and saying "The dogs will take care of it."


 
I was just asking about them, seeing that you posted it and I had never heard about them.  I said nothing of them being a fight stopper, or anything else.  



> The OC is more of the same. I would never count on it as a defense. But there's a chance that it will break the scumbags' script enough to get them thinking of easier pickings elsewhere, especially since it's mysteriously coming out of nowhere before they've even seen us. And if they've had a chance to breathe in a bit of it, cough a little and enjoy reduced vision and confusion it will give us an advantage in the gun and knife fight we were going to get into anyway. If it works, great. We didn't have to shoot, stab or bludgeon anyone. Break out the champagne. If it didn't (and that's our default position) we have a little bit of an edge.


 
Agree.


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## jks9199 (Jun 8, 2007)

Brian gave solid advice.  With regards to a safe area or safe room -- pick one room that you feel is solidly defensible; you want a controlled route to it and you want a solid door that can be locked.  In fact, you might want a door that's equivalent to an exterior door -- if the walls are reasonable support.  (No point in having a door that's nigh on impenetrable in a paper wall...)  Have a standard land line phone, not a cell and not a cordless, in there that you can call 911 (or the local equivalent) on.  (Note that I'm NOT a fan of relying on a cell phone... a basic landline isn't that expensive!)  Make sure that all family members know that they're retreat to that room if at all possible.  That sort of set up will handle home invasion robberies where there's some warning... like breaking into your house when they didn't think you were there or thought you'd sleep through it.

The other type of home invasion robbery is harder to give rules for.  And those are lots nastier.  That's when they show up, blast through the door (often employing a ruse) and take control of the house that way.  Prevention is your best bet; don't flaunt wealth.  Don't advertise that you keep lots of valuables in the house.  Don't open your door to strangers until they identify themselves.  And if you do -- get to a phone and dial 911 (or the equivalent number).  At least here in the US, cops will investigate a 911 hangup or open line, even if you can't say anything.  And if a cop shows up to investigate, and you are somehow forced to answer the door -- open it, and get OUT fast.  Don't rely on a cop (likely figuring it's just another nuisance accidental dialing) picking up some sort of cue.  We're human...and we hate dealing with that sort of call.  Even the best of us may not pick up on the cues without a scriptwriter guiding us.  Open the door wide, run screaming out!

As to the ethics of defending your home -- Tellner did an excellent job explaining that.

One last thing... "capturing" the invader sounds nice in theory.  Before you plan to do it -- think about this.  You capture the bad guy; what are you going to do with him?  How are you going to restrain and control him.?  What if he's not alone?


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## stickarts (Jun 8, 2007)

If someone invades your home I believe you have every right to protect you, your family, and your home.
We have a plan that we run through with my family from time to time and we have an alarm system as well as several phones around the house.
I also have a 36" Louisville slugger that just swings so nicely! :0)


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## MA-Caver (Jun 8, 2007)

tellner said:


> MJS, if people breaking into your house and attacking you isn't justification to use deadly force I don't know what is. Seriously. Deadly seriously. Think about it long and hard right now and make the Decision because it will be way too late to do complicated Deontic Calculus when the fewmets hit the air circulation device. If you can't honestly, deep in your soul, say "I would kill him if I or my loved ones were at risk" not "I might, depending, maybe in theory after carefully considering all options" get rid of the weapons and forget about martial arts as self defense.


I was taught that anyone breaking into my home while I was in it has the intent to kill me and my family/friends/room-mates. While it is justification and probably a lot of LEO's will nod their heads in the affirmative -- the law is still the law and it's homicide and it will be up to a jury to decide if it was justifiable or necessary. Thus killing should be the last resort. Crying out a warning to the intruder that they WILL get shot if they do not vacate the premises immediately helps the case I think in court. Though it maybe only your word against the burglar (if he lived) that you warned them before-hand. 
In my present situation I am severely hard of hearing and that's _when_ I have my hearing aid on. Without it I might as well be deaf... well who am I kidding... I AM  My parents are both deaf and my father is blind as well. If an intruder wants to break in they don't need to worry too much about stealth as far as noise is concern... In our case all the *more* reason for us to use deadly force when it comes to home defense. We wouldn't have a warning until after we wake up and realize that there's a fourth in the house. Extremely vulnerable to say the least I know. 
I have my folder kept by my bedside and am considering bringing in and concealing (from my parents, because that sort of thing terrifies my step mother if she sees it laying about) my hunting knife which has a broad blade of 8 inches and is very -- very sharp. I'm not allowed at present to have a firearm. 
Dogs? Can't afford one. Alarm systems, can't afford those either (parents on a fixed retirement income and I work at a McDonalds  ). There are a number of police and state troopers that cruise by the house along our street which is actually a four-lane by pass from one freeway exit to another, thus they cruise past at a good 35-40+ mph. If I wake and I frequently do through the night and sense something is amiss then I am prepared to use deadly force if I see the person is someone other than my parents. I just hope (my parent's)  lawyer is as good as they say he is. 


tellner said:


> Consider that any animal will defend its lair. And it will do it ferociously. Oh, there will be a back exit somewhere so that it can leave if it has to. But that is where it will make its stand and pull out all the stops. Even a big, fierce pit bull thinks twice about going into a little dog's house. Our cat chases squirrels. But she would never beard the squirrel in its den. She's not suicidal. The cat and the pitbull understand the score. It astounds (and appalls) me that civilization has made us forget it.


I don't think that can be a blanket statement as I've had the rare occasion in Dallas to see a dog go into another's dog house and drag the animal bodily out side and shake it like a ragdoll. T'was a bloody mess. By the way the dog doing the attacking was indeed a pit. 


tellner said:


> "If a man breaks into your house in the night and you are afraid, kill him and leave his body until morning. His own blood is on him."
> 
> "Someone broke into the lodge and was killed. Whose hand was on the bow?"


Interesting quotes... sounds familiar who said them and where did you find them? :asian: 


tellner said:


> Feudal Japanese society was incredibly oppressive to women. Female warriors? You've got to be kidding. But noblewomen were trained in various weapons, particularly the naginata, to defend the home. Everyone understood that when the house was attacked the normal rules did not apply, and everyone had a right and duty to protect it by whatever means were necessary.


Even back then they realized the importance of training _everyone_ irregardless of sex/age ... they just held a firm hand on their cultural rules. 


tellner said:


> Deterrence depends on the bad guy's belief that whatever he wants is not worth what he's going to have to pay to get it. If he's willing to break into an occupied home he's already heavily invested and doesn't care much about the legal consequences. You *must* assume that he is willing to kill you and that you and everyone else in the house are "in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or serious bodily injury". If you want him to go away the perceived cost of him continuing must be very, very high. Lights, locks, alarms and barking dogs help raise the cost before the crime. They make him think "Y'know maybe the house down the street will be less trouble."


This is true. The casual burglar will seek the un-occupied home so that the chances that they'll be interrupted while searching for valuables is less and they don't worry too much about the noise factor. Ironically most of these guys (the real professionals) choose their time of crime during the day when everyone is away at work/school. The desperate burglar or the combination burglar, read: rapist/killer/burglar will not care if someone is home or not. If it's a woman then it's a bonus. These types need to be permanently eliminated from our society IMO.  Taking every precaution is a wise step. Dogs, alarms and arms (any type) increase your chances of survival. 


tellner said:


> Once he steps across the threshold it becomes infinitely more serious. At that point the cost has to be "If I don't run away I am going to die." And that, sad to say, only works if you believe it as much as he does. If you're willing to tear his head off and beat him to death with it there's a chance you won't have to. If you aren't you have to assume that he will pick up on that as well.


 Indeed. Something happens to these people that are willing to go that far as to go into an occupied home unannounced and uninvited with bad intents. Their (human) animal instincts are heightened. They will sense if the "prey" is going to be easy or difficult. Putting up a bold front (and being able to back it up) will get most of the cowardly types to break and run... the key here is to "*let-them-GO*!" and call the police immediately if you haven't already. 



tellner said:


> The dogs and the OC canisters are not something I rely on to stop the bad guys. The dogs are a deterrent before the invasion starts. Afterwards it's their job to "Bite the Bad Strangers and make them go away." That means that our beloved dogs will probably die slowing the Bad Strangers down and giving us a couple clear shots. That's been the Arrangement between man and dog for about 100,000 years. We aren't planning on sitting back and saying "The dogs will take care of it."


If getting a dog for the purpose of home defense then avoid as much as possible getting emotionally attached to it. Not easy I'll agree here, but it will make the loss more bearable. If it's for a family pet then train the animal to respond _immediately_ to your commands to "back off" if you see the animal's life is in danger, i.e. the burglar has a gun or a knife or a crowbar or whatever. 


tellner said:


> The OC is more of the same. I would never count on it as a defense. But there's a chance that it will break the scumbags' script enough to get them thinking of easier pickings elsewhere, especially since it's mysteriously coming out of nowhere before they've even seen us. And if they've had a chance to breathe in a bit of it, cough a little and enjoy reduced vision and confusion it will give us an advantage in the gun and knife fight we were going to get into anyway. If it works, great. We didn't have to shoot, stab or bludgeon anyone. Break out the champagne. If it didn't (and that's our default position) we have a little bit of an edge.



Your home is your home and it should be one of the safest places on the planet. Do what you (reasonably) must to keep it that way.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 8, 2007)

I have to say that *Tellner*'s post above has given me considerable food for thought.

I've always been a major proponent of avoiding conflict if you can, often using the argument that you can replace property more easily than you can heal severe injuries (with the concommittant "If you get killed defending your 'things', what good do they do you?").

However, I've been running 'scenario's' in my head whilst I've been reading this thread and I've surprised myself.  

Now that I share my life with my missus, I do believe that my attitude to people breaking into what is now 'our' house has changed.  Whether it's a fantasy or not, it appears that knowing that I am the last 'line' between her and the theoretical 'them' has radically upped the level of violent resistance I am prepared to offer.

I'm a bit shocked at myself to be honest as when I asked myself the question as to whether I would kill someone to protect my missus, the answer came back "Yes" without hesitation or moral amiguity.  

I hope I could find an alternative solution tho' as I would not like to have to face that persons mother and tell her what I had done.  

I am one of those hopeless cases that feels that there is value in every human life, altho' I do concur that as I've gotten older I've gotten a lot less 'forgiving' of those who make criminal choices, becoming much more an advocate of 'punishment' as compared to 'rehabilitation'.  I know that there are individuals who are irredeemable, 'evil' to use the cliche, who need to be removed from life for the safety of everyone else but these are few and far between.  Most criminals are not in this category and are as capable of kindness and loving behaviour as, say, thievery.  

Where I'm heading with this is the further question, do they deserve to die because they broke into my house and I, not being a telepath, could not tell what they intended?


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## MA-Caver (Jun 8, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> I have to say that *Tellner*'s post above has given me considerable food for thought.
> 
> I've always been a major proponent of avoiding conflict if you can, often using the argument that you can replace property more easily than you can heal severe injuries (with the concommittant "If you get killed defending your 'things', what good do they do you?").
> 
> ...


Taking a life is never easy, hollywood just makes it look that way... mainly because the actors KNOW it's not real. Yet there is a definite change in our psyche when we become attached to others in a way that we're willing to kill or die for them. One has to prepare best as they can for the inevitable should the need arises. We always hope and pray that the need will *never* arise but that we are prepared when it does.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 8, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> I have to say that *Tellner*'s post above has given me considerable food for thought.
> 
> I've always been a major proponent of avoiding conflict if you can, often using the argument that you can replace property more easily than you can heal severe injuries (with the concommittant "If you get killed defending your 'things', what good do they do you?").
> 
> ...


 
I hear you on this *Sukerkin*. Just seeing violent death is sobering enough, let alone causing it. But that's not to say I would hesitate to do so if I believed my wife or anyone else in my home were threatened. It wouldn't be with firearms, tho I'm farily proficient with 'em, but plenty of other lethal paths one can take if it comes to that.


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## Nomad (Jun 8, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Now that I share my life with my missus, I do believe that my attitude to people breaking into what is now 'our' house has changed. Whether it's a fantasy or not, it appears that knowing that I am the last 'line' between her and the theoretical 'them' has radically upped the level of violent resistance I am prepared to offer.
> 
> I'm a bit shocked at myself to be honest as when I asked myself the question as to whether I would kill someone to protect my missus, the answer came back "Yes" without hesitation or moral amiguity.


 
It becomes even less ambiguous when you have young children in the house.  If someone were to invade my home, I would assume they intended to commit the absolute worst crimes to my wife and two gorgeous little girls, and my response would be quick and brutal.


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## Fang (Jun 8, 2007)

"We have a plan that we run through with my family from time to time"


Bingo! talking about this type of thing with those you live with is probably the absolute most powerful way of handling the situation on the front end... On the *** end its anybodies guess but if you talk about it, it goes a long way towards becoming a solution.


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## SFC JeffJ (Jun 8, 2007)

One thing to consider in your plan is to stay put in your safe area.  Room clearing is dangerous, just ask any police officer or soldier who's done it.  They have the luxury of a trained team and specialized equipment for it(frag grenades, flash bangs, and the like), and it's still dangerous.  Stay in your defensible position, stay alert, and make sure you or someone else is on the phone with the 911 dispatcher.  Room clearing by yourself against multiple armed bad guys is not a good idea.

The only reason I would try to clear out part of my house would be if there were loved ones who for some reason didn't make it to the safe room.

Jeff


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## MA-Caver (Jun 8, 2007)

SFC JeffJ said:


> One thing to consider in your plan is to stay put in your safe area.  Room clearing is dangerous, just ask any police officer or soldier who's done it.  They have the luxury of a trained team and specialized equipment for it(frag grenades, flash bangs, and the like), and it's still dangerous.  Stay in your defensible position, stay alert, and make sure you or someone else is on the phone with the 911 dispatcher.  Room clearing by yourself against multiple armed bad guys is not a good idea.
> 
> The only reason I would try to clear out part of my house would be if there were loved ones who for some reason didn't make it to the safe room.
> 
> Jeff



Yes but realistically how often does *that* happen? Most burglars work singly and sometimes in pairs... but even then one of them might be waiting out in the car waiting and watching for LEO's on patrol. 
By "multiple armed bad guys" I am assuming that you are thinking three or more. So how often does that happen to the average home-owner? If you've a kid in a gang and a rival gang really wants revenge and goes as far as the home invasion thing (almost unheard of btw)... then yeah okay... 
I'm not trying to invalidate your point Jeff just wondering the possiblity of that ever happening. 
If I see that I'm outnumbered then my tactics are going to change radically. I'm no Bruce Willis to try and take 'em out one by one... our house isn't that big anyway. So if I'm facing multiple attackers in my home... :idunno: not sure what I will do... but then again... "No one man knows what he will do in any given situation until it happens."


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## CoryKS (Jun 8, 2007)

Nomad said:


> It becomes even less ambiguous when you have young children in the house. If someone were to invade my home, I would assume they intended to commit the absolute worst crimes to my wife and two gorgeous little girls, and my response would be quick and brutal.


 





You dont understand. Im not trapped in here with you. Youre trapped in here with me. - Rorschach, The Watchmen


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## SFC JeffJ (Jun 8, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> Yes but realistically how often does *that* happen? Most burglars work singly and sometimes in pairs... but even then one of them might be waiting out in the car waiting and watching for LEO's on patrol.
> By "multiple armed bad guys" I am assuming that you are thinking three or more. So how often does that happen to the average home-owner? If you've a kid in a gang and a rival gang really wants revenge and goes as far as the home invasion thing (almost unheard of btw)... then yeah okay...
> I'm not trying to invalidate your point Jeff just wondering the possiblity of that ever happening.
> If I see that I'm outnumbered then my tactics are going to change radically. I'm no Bruce Willis to try and take 'em out one by one... our house isn't that big anyway. So if I'm facing multiple attackers in my home... :idunno: not sure what I will do... but then again... "No one man knows what he will do in any given situation until it happens."


If it's a single burglar, chances are he won't go into your house if you are there, and will leave if he discovers you are there.  There is a rise in home invasions, where your house is entered by armed criminals while you are in bed.  One just happened near here a few days ago. 

The thing is, you don't know which it is, so it's better to play it safe.

Jeff


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## MA-Caver (Jun 8, 2007)

SFC JeffJ said:


> If it's a single burglar, chances are he won't go into your house if you are there, and will leave if he discovers you are there.  There is a rise in home invasions, where your house is entered by armed criminals while you are in bed.  One just happened near here a few days ago.
> 
> The thing is, you don't know which it is, so it's better to play it safe.
> 
> Jeff


True... 
That's scary that criminals are banning together to accomplish their ends. Scary for the criminals as well because they might hook up with someone they barely met (in jail/prison) and not realizing that they might be a psychopath.


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## jks9199 (Jun 8, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> Yes but realistically how often does *that* happen? Most burglars work singly and sometimes in pairs... but even then one of them might be waiting out in the car waiting and watching for LEO's on patrol.
> By "multiple armed bad guys" I am assuming that you are thinking three or more. So how often does that happen to the average home-owner? If you've a kid in a gang and a rival gang really wants revenge and goes as far as the home invasion thing (almost unheard of btw)... then yeah okay...
> I'm not trying to invalidate your point Jeff just wondering the possiblity of that ever happening.
> If I see that I'm outnumbered then my tactics are going to change radically. I'm no Bruce Willis to try and take 'em out one by one... our house isn't that big anyway. So if I'm facing multiple attackers in my home... :idunno: not sure what I will do... but then again... "No one man knows what he will do in any given situation until it happens."


 
There are two basic types of occupied dwelling robberies.  The first, less problematic type is when one or maybe two burglaries break into the house, often not thinking anyone is home, and don't want to be discovered.  They may or may not become violent if discovered and challenged; it's a crap shoot based on the individuals and their histories.  Often simply letting them know you're home will send them running.  Get into and stay in your safe area, and call 911.  Stay on the line and tell the dispatcher what you're hearing and seeing.  EVERY detail that you can give is helpful, and you'll be told when to hang up and go out and meet the cops.  (If they haven't come to you.)  DON'T blast randomly with a gun -- especially when the police are on the way!  

The other type is the real home invasion robbery.  These typically involve several (say 2 to 7) robbers who force their way into the home.  In my area, they tend to be intra-racial, and very popular with Asian gang bangers.  These guys are often VERY violent; they use entry tactics that are not dissimilar to what we cops do on dynamic entries.  They often have researched the target and carefully selected the target.  As I said -- the best defense is not being a target.  Then, don't let strangers in the door.  Use peep holes and other means to find out who's at the door before you open it, and if you have some sort of service person (cable, plumber, whatever) show up unexpectedly -- don't open the door until you know why they're there.  If they get in...  try to retreat to your safe room, or get out of the house, and try to get a 911 call out.  Again -- cops investigate 911 hang-ups and open lines.  Especially if the open line includes people yelling or screaming... 



MA-Caver said:


> True...
> That's scary that criminals are banning together to accomplish their ends. Scary for the criminals as well because they might hook up with someone they barely met (in jail/prison) and not realizing that they might be a psychopath.


 
They've been banding together for ages...  It's not new.


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## tellner (Jun 8, 2007)

If killing people is easy, then it's time to check into the nearest psychiatric hospital for a good, long stay  If it's necessary it's necessary. It does change things when you have a spouse and even more when there are children. All of a sudden it's not just you. It's you and someone for whom you would lay down your life without hesitation. That's squared and cubed when you look down at a baby and realize he or she depends completely on you.  

As with so much else, Kipling said it best:



> *The Married Man*
> 
> _[SIZE=-1](Reservist of the Line)[/SIZE]_​*[SIZE=+2]T[/SIZE]HE BACHELOR* e fights for one
> As joyful as can be;
> ...


 Even more for the woman...



> And to serve that single issue, lest the generations fail,
> The female of the species must be deadlier than the male.
> 
> She who faces Death by torture for each life beneath her breast
> ...


​OK, the biologist in me says "To a female mammal a single offspring represents a greater investment of resources than it does for a male. Further, the male can never be sure of the parentage of his putative offspring, unlike the female. Thus there is a tendency for female mammals to more carefully guard their offspring." But that's a hell of a lot less poetic 



The safe area concept is a great one. I'm a little worried about treating it as inviolable. House clearing is dangerous and difficult, but sometimes there isn't any alternative. If your kid is somewhere else in the house or your spouse is wounded you can't just say "I'm behind the locked door. SOP says don't move." At least in your own house you have the advantage of familiarity with the terrain, especially if the lights are off. In our case the safe area isn't a room where we huddle behind the door. It's a prepared ambush position. None of our interior doors will stop a strong determined person much less a bullet. We've chosen (and drilled) a plan that gives us certain advantages while making best use of the terrain. 

The dogs? We love them. They love us. If they are hurt or killed defending us we will be heartbroken. But that's The Arrangement, and we all understand it. We feed, love and protect them. They love and protect us because we are all Pack. We didn't get dogs just to be self-propelled weapons. That is simply one of their potential functions. And we'd rather not have the responsibility of a guard- or protection-trained dog.


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## Drac (Jun 8, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> and try to get a 911 call out. Again -- cops investigate 911 hang-ups and open lines. Especially if the open line includes people yelling or screaming...


 
Yes we do... 





			
				jks9199 said:
			
		

> They've been banding together for ages... It's not new.


 
Recently a new scam surfaced..A teen came to the front door of a house dressed as a pizza delivery man..He attempted to get the female to open the dooe to verify the phone number, he said he couldn't read it in the dim porch light..She FINALLY managed to get her husbands attention who was on the couch watching sports and he came to the door..The kid saw him and ran, and so did the *2 OTHERS *that were hiding in the bushes..


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## MJS (Jun 9, 2007)

Seems that this was more of a burglary in progress than an invasion, as the home owner was not home.  Unfortunately, crime is high in the city and moreso in this particular area.  Neighbors report things such as this:



> First, the neighbors say, someone got into his basement and stole the copper pipes he planned to use for new plumbing. Then, his tools - all but a hammer and a screw driver - were stolen. Eddie moved in anyway. Within the week, a neighbor saw Eddie's furniture being loaded into a U-Haul truck in broad daylight while he was away.


 
Pretty sad IMHO.  So, as this homeowner was entering the home, he interupted the burglary and ended up stabbing one.

More


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## jks9199 (Jun 9, 2007)

Drac said:


> Recently a new scam surfaced..A teen came to the front door of a house dressed as a pizza delivery man..He attempted to get the female to open the dooe to verify the phone number, he said he couldn't read it in the dim porch light..She FINALLY managed to get her husbands attention who was on the couch watching sports and he came to the door..The kid saw him and ran, and so did the *2 OTHERS *that were hiding in the bushes..


 
Note the use of a ruse (or, thankfully, an attempt in this case!) to get into the house.  If you didn't order a pizza, and one shows up... Ask why.  If the driver needs your lights (isn't that what your porch light is for?) to read his slip... how'd he find your house in the first place?  What's wrong with the dome light in his car?  YOU know you didn't order the pizza, call for the cable guy, or whatever.  Legit services will identify themselves, and often call before they make unscheduled calls.  Cops have IDs and badges.  People don't deliver pizza/Chinese/takeout food without an order.  

It's a bit of topic, but I'm gonna throw out two other common scams.  First -- this is the time of year that solicitors start showing up at the door, selling magazines, cleaner, or whatever.  Most places require solicitors to obtain some sort of license or permit.  Ask for them.  If the salesperson can't provide it -- call it in.  While many of the companies are legitimate in that you'll get whatever you order -- many aren't.  And many count on people not reporting them, and the kid selling takes the hit if they're cited, not the company that put them up to it.

The other scam takes place at homes or even in parking lots or gas stations.  Someone comes up, and says they're a neighbor.  They need $20 for gas, because their father (or mother or kid... you get the idea) is in the hospital, and they just need gas money to get there... They'll pay it back next week... It's not a lot of money, you think they're a neighbor, and you just want to be a good neighbor yourself, so you lend them the money.  Guess what -- you won't see that money again!  In today's world we don't know lots of our neighbors, but you can still verify some of the basics, like asking their actual address (not "I live in that house" as they point).  The truth s that it's not likely that your neighbors will need to contact you for gas money or cab fare like that...


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## Drac (Jun 9, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Note the use of a ruse (or, thankfully, an attempt in this case!) to get into the house. If you didn't order a pizza, and one shows up... Ask why. If the driver needs your lights (isn't that what your porch light is for?) to read his slip... how'd he find your house in the first place? What's wrong with the dome light in his car? YOU know you didn't order the pizza, call for the cable guy, or whatever. Legit services will identify themselves, and often call before they make unscheduled calls. Cops have IDs and badges. People don't deliver pizza/Chinese/takeout food without an order.


 
Yes, one of the items that raised doubt in her mind (besides the fact they didn't order pizza) was the delivery vehicle was parked at the end of her driveway and had no signs..Most of the pizza delivery cars have a magnetic signs on the doors or one of those roof mounted jobs..


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## Sukerkin (Jun 9, 2007)

I'm very happy to have the input of LEO professionals on this (important question, don't we have any British cops on the fora (the alternate, UK, perspective would be most welcome?)).

From personal experience I can attest that this sort of 'con' can work even if you think you're on the ball.  

Just last week I actually answered a knock at the door at 12:45 in the morning to a chap (non-white as it happens) holding a plastic bag in one hand and a 'slip' in the other claiming to be from a 'fast food' delivery company.  

I slipped up in the fact that I answered the door at _all_ at that time of the day (my excuse being 'spinal reflex' trained for decades to answer the door when someone knocks :O).  

Fortunately, my other 'spinal reflex' cut in as, whilst I opened the door, bleery eyed, in my dressing-gown and slippers, my other hand took hold of the wakizashi on the shelf next to the entrance.  My nose helped too as I did not detect any associated fragrancies in the air.

A short dialogue ensued, with which I won't bore our members, but the upshot of which was that if he wished to make me believe that he was trying to deliver fast food to my house at 12:45 he'd probably be better off _actually_ having some in the bag he was holding.  Plus, his mate standing outside the delivery car would've been better advised to spend his time actually putting some decals on it for the (local) company they purported to represent.

Please note that this is not a verbatim transcript and that threats to stick 20" (off-the-cuff estimate) of steel where the sun don't shine, when his mate started to move up our drive are alleged only.

Fortunately that's as far as it went (showing that even fat middle-aged men can have their moments of glory ) but is frighteningly revealing of what can go on even in 'decent' neighbourhoods.

I have a question that devolves from this.  I haven't told my missus, who was asleep at the time and did not wake up, that this happened (well not exactly, I said it was a 'wrong address').  Should I tell her and frighten her, that every delivery person at odd hours is a potential robber, or 'leave it alone' in the hope that it will be *me* to face it if one of these ever becomes a real problem (because I have to be honest and say that there is no way my missus is answering the door at that time of day).


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## jks9199 (Jun 9, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> I have a question that devolves from this.  I haven't told my missus, who was asleep at the time and did not wake up, that this happened (well not exactly, I said it was a 'wrong address').  Should I tell her and frighten her, that every delivery person at odd hours is a potential robber, or 'leave it alone' in the hope that it will be *me* to face it if one of these ever becomes a real problem (because I have to be honest and say that there is no way my missus is answering the door at that time of day).



You don't have to tell your wife about them showing up at your door if you don't feel that it would be beneficial.  But I would advise her of the scam generally; something along the lines of "honey, I heard about this...  Be careful who you open the door to..."


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## MA-Caver (Jun 10, 2007)

Sukerkin, IMO and though I'm not married I think thus... She's your wife, your best friend and confidant and next time it might be SHE who opens the door. 
Tell her and do so asap. Successful marriages from what I've seen are those that have total and absolute open lines of communications. She should know as much as you do when it concerns the safety of your household. 
If she bawls you out for opening the bloody door at 12:45 am then rightfully so. You did it to yourself but she should have a say eh? But after it's all calmed down talk it over and make her aware. 
Awareness is one of the primary keys to preventing crime. Tell her mate and that right soon. :asian:


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## Sukerkin (Jun 10, 2007)

You're right, chaps, it's best to let her know that such things can happen.

Also, as ever when re-reading late-night posts in the cold light of day, I made it sound a whole lot more dramatic than it was.  Altho' I had a wakizashi to hand, I never produced it into sight, tho' I suppose having the confidence that it was there may have helped in my quiet conversation with these odd fellows.

To be honest, I don't think they were 'interested' once they realised that someone was in and awake (so this is really not on-topic for a "Home Invasions" thread ).  My guess is that they were looking for an empty house (it being a sort of holiday season around here at that time) and had the 'delivery' as a cover story in case they encountered what they actually did i.e. someone answers a knock at the door.

It's a poor cover but it worked if you think about it as they were off without me being any the wiser as to who they were (and I didn't get a good look at the car (very bad streetlighting and lots of trees)).

My neighbour is a policeman and he says that such things are not uncommon and there's not a lot that they can do about it :shrugs:.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Jun 10, 2007)

We  live in open times, where women have equal rights and that is a great thing.

But any noncombatant  in a situation needs to shut their mouth and obey any  commands giving by the head of houshold in a potentially violent situations.

  It sounds chauvenistic and all, but if the female and or kids are not in on any preplanned action, they must stay out of the way, any interference causes situational conjestion, which can get everyone killed.

My Lady is a strongly oppionated person,  we argue a good deal, I get her oppinions on things she knows about and things she knows  nothing about and I eat it and as we live in today's World,that's fine, but she knows in any protective situation, I AM GOD AND WILL BE OBEYED!
 I have seen women get in the  middle of fights and get their man beat down because of it, it's just stupid.

 We  have a "Word" at the house and when she hears it, both kids get tossed in a corner  of a room, with her holding a peice of Military grade hardware at the door, while I take an aggressive role.
  I have  sprang this on her out of the blue  and she did everything right.

 She also knows on the outside, to get behind me and to clear away  if I enter into a standing fight and where to stomp him if we go to the ground.


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## Kacey (Jun 10, 2007)

Darth F.Takeda said:


> But any noncombatant  in a situation needs to shut their mouth and obey any  commands giving by the head of houshold in a potentially violent situations.
> 
> It sounds chauvenistic and all, but if the female and or kids are not in on any preplanned action, they must stay out of the way, any interference causes situational conjestion, which can get everyone killed.



It does sound chauvinistic - because, IMHO, it is.  Many heads of household are female, while your statement assumes they are male.  And by your own description, when your wife hears the "word", she takes preplanned action - and is therefore part of the plan.  How would you feel if I said the same thing you did, but changed the one sentence to "if the *male *and or kids are not in on any preplanned action..."?  Your post, as written, seems to assume that only adult males can be "in on any preplanned action", that all females and children can do is cower while the adult male takes care of the situation.  What happens if you're not home?  What do all of those households led by women do?  I don't disagree that non-combatants need to stay out of the way - but I don't agree that only adult males should be in charge.


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## Drac (Jun 10, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Fortunately that's as far as it went (showing that even fat middle-aged men can have their moments of glory ) but is frighteningly revealing of what can go on even in 'decent' neighbourhoods.


 
Yes..There is many a tough guy languishing in jail today because they thought they could beat this fat middle age copper..


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## Drac (Jun 10, 2007)

Kacey said:


> It does sound chauvinistic - because, IMHO, it is. Many heads of household are female, while your statement assumes they are male. And by your own description, when your wife hears the "word", she takes preplanned action - and is therefore part of the plan. How would you feel if I said the same thing you did, but changed the one sentence to "if the *male *and or kids are not in on any preplanned action..."? Your post, as written, seems to assume that only adult males can be "in on any preplanned action", that all females and children can do is cower while the adult male takes care of the situation. What happens if you're not home? What do all of those households led by women do? I don't disagree that non-combatants need to stay out of the way - but I don't agree that only adult males should be in charge.


 
*GREAT *post..No juice to give you a reppie...Resonded to prowler call and met the female after searching the grounds who informed me that had this person had gained entrance to her house I would have had to respond with a Rescue Squad..I believe her..


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## tellner (Jun 10, 2007)

Sukerkin, your wife has a right to know about potential threats to herself and things that concern her. A potential deadly attack qualifies on the same level as a broken gas main. The Ancient Greeks weren't exactly progressive by today's standards, and Hera was known as "The Keeper of the Keys" and "Defender of the Home".

I've been doing some serious thinking and have come up with something a lot more frightening than the "Candygram - Land Shark" thing being discussed. In fact, I predict it will be a minor nightmare for US law enforcement for a couple decades to come.


Violent crime has been going up in the last few years
Economic opportunity, social stability and real wages are all down. We can argue about the causes; the fact is indisputable
Returning vets from Iraq and Afghanistan are economically very badly off compared to the general population of the same age. Homelessness is disturbingly high
Their training and combat experience are almost entirely small unit tactics in urban environments
A growing - unprecedented in the post-Vietnam era - number is already violent felons, gang-bangers or neo-Nazis thanks to the Uncle Sam's plummetting recruitment standards
The US military in its infinite wisdom has decided that PTSD does not exist and that returning vets need no re-acclimation to civilian life or follow-up mental health care
There's already been an incident where a small group of Army Rangers staged a by-the-numbers on-the bounce absolutely precise bank robbery
Add up the numbers. Connect the dots. Imagine being a cop having to deal with this sort of thing. Imagine what will happen the first time a SWAT team is obliterated in an ambush or street battle.


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## jks9199 (Jun 10, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> You're right, chaps, it's best to let her know that such things can happen.
> 
> Also, as ever when re-reading late-night posts in the cold light of day, I made it sound a whole lot more dramatic than it was. Altho' I had a wakizashi to hand, I never produced it into sight, tho' I suppose having the confidence that it was there may have helped in my quiet conversation with these odd fellows.
> 
> ...


 
Actually, it's quite appropriate in this thread.  This illustrates one of the ways that the burglary of an occupied dwelling type of home invasion happens.  You got a guy using a ruse to ring the bell...  No answer, and they go in.  Answer... they move on.  But... sometimes, there's no answer 'cause everyone's asleep or fail to notice the door bell.


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## jks9199 (Jun 10, 2007)

tellner said:


> I've been doing some serious thinking and have come up with something a lot more frightening than the "Candygram - Land Shark" thing being discussed. In fact, I predict it will be a minor nightmare for US law enforcement for a couple decades to come.
> 
> Violent crime has been going up in the last few years
> Economic opportunity, social stability and real wages are all down. We can argue about the causes; the fact is indisputable
> ...


 
It's already happened.  In CA, a returning Marine gang-banger used military tactics including advancing into fire to ambush and kill two police officers following his service in the Middle East.  

Other gang members have been identified in the military, and interviews have shown that they joined solely to learn the military combat tactics.  Some manage to get thrown out after Basic, but others serve in combat, and bring that experience and training home.

And, yes, this is a nightmare for us cops.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 10, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> It's already happened.  In CA, a returning Marine gang-banger used military tactics including advancing into fire to ambush and kill two police officers following his service in the Middle East.
> 
> Other gang members have been identified in the military, and interviews have shown that they joined solely to learn the military combat tactics.  Some manage to get thrown out after Basic, but others serve in combat, and bring that experience and training home.
> 
> And, yes, this is a nightmare for us cops.


Then it sounds like you gotta hit them as hard as they hit you. To be better, faster, stronger... all of that... let them know that they can't turn the tables on the law... and that the law will prevail. 
I hope and pray for you men and women doing your jobs and duty.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Jun 11, 2007)

Kacey said:


> It does sound chauvinistic - because, IMHO, it is. Many heads of household are female, while your statement assumes they are male. And by your own description, when your wife hears the "word", she takes preplanned action - and is therefore part of the plan. How would you feel if I said the same thing you did, but changed the one sentence to "if the *male *and or kids are not in on any preplanned action..."? Your post, as written, seems to assume that only adult males can be "in on any preplanned action", that all females and children can do is cower while the adult male takes care of the situation. What happens if you're not home? What do all of those households led by women do? I don't disagree that non-combatants need to stay out of the way - but I don't agree that only adult males should be in charge.


 

Well seeing as I'm the one who puts in anywhere from 8-14 hours training a week in martial arts, have combative firearms training, done a decent amount of hunting over the years,have been in few nasty situations and lived in absolute hole in my teens, compared with her no combative training, other than a few times I took her out shooting, has lived in this nice area all her life and is much weeker physically than I, in our situation I am in charge when it hits the fan.

Beleive me, she is a strong willed woman, I am not the Lord and Master of the manor, but she is also smart enough to compare herself to me.

Yes if something happens when I am not here, she has some SOPs and a weapons rich enviroment, and she knows her role is to protect our children at all cost (This is where women shine combativly, give them someone to protect, and little Miss Meek will go for broke.)But if I am here this house becomes far more dangerous to any would be invader.

BTW, in the far corner of a room behind a dresser, with the kids behined her, and she leveling a SOFMODed AR-15, loaded with hollowpoints at the door is not cowaring, unless you are an expeirenced room breacher or you have flashbang grenade, anyone through that door is dead. In a few years , the eldest boy will also be leveling something toward the door, as a teen he will take my role if I am not there.

Let's be real if there is a male and a female in the house and it hits the fan, GENERALLY (not every single case) the male is the better choice.

And I have seen females make street situations far worse, stepping up with attitude but zero combat power to back it up, it almost got a buddy of mine killed in front of me.

Then there is the female who tries to stop a fight and makes the situation worse for all parties.

I am not saying there are not some dangerous women out there, I have known a few.
If you fit that catagory, then your an asset, if not a deffensive role is best.


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## tellner (Jun 11, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Actually, it's quite appropriate in this thread.  This illustrates one of the ways that the burglary of an occupied dwelling type of home invasion happens.  You got a guy using a ruse to ring the bell...  No answer, and they go in.  Answer... they move on.  But... sometimes, there's no answer 'cause everyone's asleep or fail to notice the door bell.



That's one of the nice things about the doggies. Ring the bell, two large German Shepherds start barking and banging up against the door. Our house is probably marginally less attractive than the one down the street.


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## Drac (Jun 11, 2007)

tellner said:


> That's one of the nice things about the doggies. Ring the bell, two large German Shepherds start barking and banging up against the door.


 
That would make me take off in a hurry..


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## LawDog (Jun 11, 2007)

I do not believe that violent crimes should be connected to our returning veterans. These men were probably violent  before they entered the military and have acquired their advanced skills from the military.
Many violent people have been trained by,
*para miltary training groups, 
*military/police type shoots that have been are/ being held by clubs,
*video training aids, anyone can purchse these.
Violent people were/are always there, they are just getting trained better.


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## jks9199 (Jun 11, 2007)

LawDog said:


> I do not believe that violent crimes should be connected to our returning veterans. These men were probably violent  before they entered the military and have acquired their advanced skills from the military.
> Many violent people have been trained by,
> *para miltary training groups,
> *military/police type shoots that have been are/ being held by clubs,
> ...


Absolutely.

Let me make this clear.  MOST of our veterans are not bangers, are not going to come back and commit crimes, and are among our best citizens.

Unfortunately -- bangers and others with criminal tendencies are also getting into the service.  Signing on the line, swearing an oath, and putting on a uniform doesn't change who the person is -- and if they're a banger, they're a banger whether they're in uniform or not.  If you google "Hunter Glass", you'll find lots of links about this problem.  In brief, the military for many reasons has turned a somewhat blind eye to the presence of bangers in the various armed services, unless the banger in question is quite visibly and deliberately causing a problem.  This is changing -- but slowly.  And, while I'm not opposed to giving someone a chance to change, we need to be careful about this.  Military service isn't a magic way to make someone cease to be a banger; it's as ingrained in many of them as religion or ethnic heritage.  

The big concern is not solely the training that some of these guys are getting; it's also the EXPERIENCE at urban warfare.  That's what really scares me.  We've got violent bangers coming back from a very violent place with real, practical experience facing gun battles.  I've never been shot at on duty, nor have many other cops today.  These crooks have...  And I know that even the best simulation training is still not the same.  It's just like fighting; all the drills, forms, one-steps, sparring matches and more still aren't the same as the first time someone REALLY tries to take your head off for real.


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## tellner (Jun 11, 2007)

Lawdog, one of the most dangerous features of our descent into textbook-classic fascism is the near-religious reverence for the military and everyone in it. Hard on its heels is the reflexive condemnation of anyone and anything that isn't properly worshipful to The Troops and The Veterans.

Putting on a uniform doesn't make people into saints. All it does is guarantee that they are wearing the same clothes and can assemble an M-16. The ones who were bad people before are still bad people albeit capable of standing in straight lines and following orders. The ones who are good people are still good people. The mix of good and bad is no different among soldiers than it is among anyone else. 

Not all or even a large fraction of soldiers and veterans is criminals much less violent ones. But there is a sizable number of all people who could be. If you add the economic troubles veterans are facing and the overall decline of American workers you'll get some who are willing to commit crime to make ends meet. It won't just be "gangbangers" which we can reasonably translate as "scary lawless Negroes who say 'Yo!' ". There will be plenty from all ethnicities. Some will be unorganized. Many will have learned and experienced in real life how to work together as coordinated small units. They will be more experienced, better prepared and quicker to kill than the police who will be facing them. Add in the long, repeated deployments and the well-established long-term organic effects they have on the physical structure of the brain and you've got a growing pool of potential criminals who are better prepared than in any generation I can think of.

jks, you say that the military is getting rid of the criminals and political extremists. I wish it were true, but the standards are actually declining. The proportion of recent inductees who scored in the lowest category of the military aptitude tests was at about 20% the last time I saw. That is up from the usual 2-4%. The new directives allowing neo-Nazis and people with serious drug and violent felony records are still in place. With the *entire* 82nd Airborne walking street patrols (?!?!) as of today's news the best the Army can hope for is that there's something left to scrape at the bottom of the barrel.


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## shesulsa (Jun 11, 2007)

Darth F.Takeda said:


> Well seeing as I'm the one who puts in anywhere from 8-14 hours training a week in martial arts, have combative firearms training, done a decent amount of hunting over the years,have been in few nasty situations and lived in absolute hole in my teens, compared with her no combative training, other than a few times I took her out shooting, has lived in this nice area all her life and is much weeker physically than I, in our situation I am in charge when it hits the fan.
> 
> Beleive me, she is a strong willed woman, I am not the Lord and Master of the manor, but she is also smart enough to compare herself to me.
> 
> ...



Perhaps it would be better stated that there are all kinds of people who make bad situations worse if they have no training or no idea what to do.  The ignoramuses who do this kind of thing are not just female, nor are they mostly female.

I'm concerned, also, that you would have your teen boy 'take your role' should something happen to you - does he have the h2h combat and self-defense/home-defense and common sense to do such a thing?

I become further concerned when generalities are made between genders, especially in a situation such as this.  I think it's better stated that the person best suited, best trained, most qualified to handle this kind of incident should do so.  

My man is so strong he could snap my humorus by gripping it with one hand and jerking hard enough.  His strategy skills, calmness in dire situations and stealth are superb.  His position?  Backup.  He's relying on me to be the first line of defense and will follow my orders.

Just a balance post, tis all.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Jun 11, 2007)

Actually you can make genrealizations about groups, but it does fall apart when you go person to person. I allready stated there are dangerous females out there and yes sometimes they are better prepared then a man (but he really needs to look at himself and hope our society stays the same), but hypothetically put 100 women in a room and 100 men in a room and have them fight to the death, sure you might have 1 or 4 dead men, but you would'nt have a single woman left standing after wards. Do this on an individual bases and I am sure their would be some woman who would win, but overwellimingly the men would have more "wins" in their side.

The reason we have a more liberated society is that the ability to fight, at present, is not that high on the list of priorites and physical strength is not as important for daily life as it used to be, coupled with Laws that protect women. It has allowed our attitudes yto evolve. Go back 200 years and yes you might find a strong, independent woman here and there, but overwellmingly the man had final say in anything he wanted to have it in.

Point is when it hits the fan, your going into something that is ancient and animalistic and the modern ideas fall by the wayside.

On the issue of my Son, when he is a teen, adopting my role in when I am not there will be his responsability, and he might not have my level of training by then, but beleive me, he is not going to get the standard Gun safety and standing at the line target shooting training many think makes them able to fight with a gun, he will learn how to gunfight. As the #1 Son, it's will be his duty to protect his Mom and younger brother, as it should be. Part of having family SOPs for bad situations is having a clear chain of command and responsabilities.

Hey there is alot about our modern society I like and hope stays in place. My Lady is fairly independent, damn smart, and is in charge of a few things in the houshold, that I totaly deffer to her on, and that is a good thing, I want a partner, not a Slave, but elements of our " Cultural evolution" actually prove detramental when you end up in primal situations. Kids being told "Vilolence does not solve anything." and getting suspended from school for fighting back when attacked is a bad consequence of the "progressivness" of our society and helps contribute to making a larger number weak men, who will be nothing more than sheep if the "Night of the long knives." ever goes down. We saw that at VA Tech. and the shooting in Canada, where the males all left the room by the aggressors command,and stood in the hall as he killed women.

I will tell mine when they can understand thatViolence does not solve everthing, but with some things it's the only or best solution. Be peacfull, respectfull and kind in everyday life, be a good person, try to be diplomatic in confrontations, think "What Would Jesus Do?" and all that,but if things get or are turning ugly , counter attack with extreme and vile aggression, be evil itself, dont survive, conquer, or What Would Ceaser Do?


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## jks9199 (Jun 11, 2007)

tellner said:


> jks, you say that the military is getting rid of the criminals and political extremists. I wish it were true, but the standards are actually declining. The proportion of recent inductees who scored in the lowest category of the military aptitude tests was at about 20% the last time I saw. That is up from the usual 2-4%. The new directives allowing neo-Nazis and people with serious drug and violent felony records are still in place. With the *entire* 82nd Airborne walking street patrols (?!?!) as of today's news the best the Army can hope for is that there's something left to scrape at the bottom of the barrel.



Note, please, what I actually wrote:


jks9199 said:


> In brief, the military for many reasons has turned a somewhat blind eye to the presence of bangers in the various armed services, unless the banger in question is quite visibly and deliberately causing a problem.  This is changing -- but slowly.


 (emphasis added)

The military is slowly recognizing the extent and admitting the existence of gang members within the ranks, and responding to it as a problem.  I didn't, and I'm not going to, address the extent of the problem, or the reasons behind it, or the reasons behind the tolerance of gang behavior.  Hunter Glass does it much better than I do, and you can find it online quite easily.

Society as a whole is barely cognizant of the gang lifestyle, unless they are directly affected by it.  And, in specifically discussing gang members, you'll note that I have not specified any ethnicity.  Bangers come in all ethnicities -- and many gangs in the Northern VA area cross ethnic lines with total disregard for what might be seen elsewhere in the country.  The banger lifestyle, and their attitude toward the rest of society is the problem, not their clothes, their skin or anything else.  And that lifestyle goes with them when they put a military uniform on.  I've heard reliable accounts of units in Basic that split rapidly along gang lines.  But I'm moving far afield of the thread now...


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## Tames D (Jun 11, 2007)

Darth F.Takeda said:


> Actually you can make genrealizations about groups, but it does fall apart when you go person to person. I allready stated there are dangerous females out there and yes sometimes they are better prepared then a man (but he really needs to look at himself and hope our society stays the same), but hypothetically put 100 women in a room and 100 men in a room and have them fight to the death, sure you might have 1 or 4 dead men, but you would'nt have a single woman left standing after wards. Do this on an individual bases and I am sure their would be some woman who would win, but overwellimingly the men would have more "wins" in their side.
> 
> The reason we have a more liberated society is that the ability to fight, at present, is not that high on the list of priorites and physical strength is not as important for daily life as it used to be, coupled with Laws that protect women. It has allowed our attitudes yto evolve. Go back 200 years and yes you might find a strong, independent woman here and there, but overwellmingly the man had final say in anything he wanted to have it in.
> 
> ...


I guess I missed something here. Not sure how your opinion of men being superior to women factors into this. Has there ever been a situation where 100 men and women fought each other to the end? 
I guarantee that if you let me choose who the 100 men and women are, that the outcome will be different. If I missed something, let me know.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Jun 12, 2007)

The 100 men  v  100 womnen  was a hypothetical, but all through out history,  when a villages defenders were defeated, the victorious would rape in plunder the village, you know the women , children and elderly left after the men were  defeated  (killed).

I dont feel that men are supeirior to women overall, but in violent situations they GENERALL, not always, do not measure up  and they  are Generally, not always, physically  weaker ( stength  is not everything, but it's a factor) and  tend to be more emotion based in their thinking then Men, not good when you  potentially are about to kill home invaders.

I know and have known some tough women who can handle themselves, but from what I have personally seen, they either get hurt  or make a situation worse  for their man when it is a fight with a man.

I am not a chavanist,  I love and respect my mate very much, as I have said, I want a lover and a partner, not a Slave, but I am a realist.

As  far as relavence to this thread, it has  to do with what you do  in a home invasion and the roles of your family members.


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## stabpunch (Jun 12, 2007)

Here's a suggestion for you two arguing about men and women. Start a new thread.

Although how many systems train in a group defense? Why doesn't the big strong father figuer train the son and his partner? Rather than complain they are in the way. 

Ok when some one smashes in our door i'll delay him you fetch the pepper spray and you call the police. Imagine a poor home invader facing two or more prepared defenders? This is what we do against a gun(comply until opportunity presents), this is what we do against two or three.

Just a thought. 

Anyway how did this thread start there's the military gone bad and men are stronger than women?


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