# Is the new generation of Martials Artist lacking in toughness?



## Thousand Kicks (Mar 7, 2014)

I am asking this question based on some conversations and experiences I've had over the past couple of years.

I seem to notice that the current generation of TKD pracxticioners seem less willing to put in the work required to be a good martial artist. It's like the mentality is "What is the least I have to do to be the next Bruce Lee?" Whether it's tournament sparring or just normal practice, I see people who aren't really interested in good ole fashion hard work. 

My instructor occasionally has inter school tournaments with 2 other local schools. I always notice, especially in sparring, that the other schools students just aren't that tough. The head instructor of one of the other schools said that when he pushes his students or has sparring a couple of times a week, people quit. It is evident in the way his students perform. Now, I concede that a school is a business and he has to make a decision on the balance between giving the students what they want and giving them a quality program. I also understand that my dedication to the art is more than the average person is willing to commit. But, I also believe that anything worth doing is worth doing well and that usually means you're going to have to put in the work.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion about McDojos.I am just wondering if you guys notice this as well.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 7, 2014)

To some extent, yes. Martial arts are almost ubiquitous now, as opposed to what things were like in the 1960s and 70s. Which means that there is more competition for students, which means if some aspects of training are likely to cause a number of people to quit those methods will either be reserved for "serious" students or jettisoned altogether. I have seen many people whose general toughness level is less than I would have thought for people of their rank/time training but there have also been plenty that have exceeded people from "back in the day" in this area. 

One thing that has improved noticeably is the level of technical proficiency that some students now have. They do the techniques much better than people used to, are faster, more proficient, etc. This is the result of several things, among them simply spending a longer time training and having second and third generation instructors that spent a lot of time training with Gen. Choi and his senior students and coming to a deeper understanding of the art. I will not say that this improvement has filtered down to the general Taekwon-Do public, but I do think there is a larger number of people doing the art more correctly (for lack of a better term) than there was 40 years ago.

Pax,

Chris


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 7, 2014)

Yes. But the same can be said for most things these days, its not just exclusive to martial arts.


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## drop bear (Mar 7, 2014)

It is hard unless there is a real focus on competition. People are being sold the idea that martial arts will give you an instant fix. That there is some sort of trick that will make you good. And there are always the avenues that people can choose that will give them that easier ride.

It become this idea that training to be tough is somehow cheating.

The thing is hard training can have appeal.that is the selling point of cross fit for example.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 7, 2014)

Thousand Kicks said:


> I am asking this question based on some conversations and experiences I've had over the past couple of years.
> 
> I seem to notice that the current generation of TKD pracxticioners seem less willing to put in the work required to be a good martial artist. It's like the mentality is "What is the least I have to do to be the next Bruce Lee?" Whether it's tournament sparring or just normal practice, I see people who aren't really interested in good ole fashion hard work.
> 
> ...



i don't know that there is any way to generalize about "the new generation" as a whole. You have some people training with no contact at McDojos. You have other people training to be professional fighters. You have others who are at every level in-between. There are thousands of schools out there and millions of students. None of us will ever encounter more than a tiny fraction of those individuals. That means that none of us is really in a position to evaluate the comparative toughness of a whole generation of martial artists.

For the record, the people I train with these days are much tougher (on average) than the folks I trained with 20 years ago. I don't think that indicates anything about a generational shift. It's just that I developed a lot more toughness over the years and as a result am now training with a more hardcore crowd.


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 8, 2014)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Yes. But the same can be said for most things these days, its not just exclusive to martial arts.



Part of the problem is that the newer generations are being raised in a 'me too/fast food/entitlement mentality.  "I've been training for three WHOLE weeks...what do you mean I'm not a black belt yet!"


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## Rumy73 (Mar 8, 2014)

In the last decade or so, martial arts  decided to market to kids and women.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 8, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Part of the problem is that the newer generations are being raised in a 'me too/fast food/entitlement mentality.  "I've been training for three WHOLE weeks...what do you mean I'm not a black belt yet!"



Baby boomers lamenting millennials, yet they raised them.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 8, 2014)

Thousand Kicks said:


> I  It's like the mentality is "What is the least I have to do to be the next Bruce Lee?" Whether it's tournament sparring or just normal practice, I see people who aren't really interested in good ole fashion hard work.


To me, the desire to do as little as possible for a superior result is a GREAT mentality.

I read a bodybuilding book years ago and the author said that your goal should be to get the workout done effectively, in as little time as possible.  Life is too short to spend for example 2 hours in the gym every day, if you could get the same results with only 1 hour each day.

Plus with more training, the chance of injury (especially overuse injuries) can increase.

So I would appreciate someone who wanted to "cut the crap" and practice efficiently.


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## Archtkd (Mar 8, 2014)

Thousand Kicks said:


> I seem to notice that the current generation of TKD pracxticioners seem less willing to put in the work required to be a good martial artist. It's like the mentality is "What is the least I have to do to be the next Bruce Lee?" Whether it's tournament sparring or just normal practice, I see people who aren't really interested in good ole fashion hard work.



There are hordes of tough, discipled youth and adults are out there, but taekwondo schools are having a very hard time attracting them. Reasons for that are numerous and causes are not exact. One thing that may be happening is that many of us taekwondoin, especially the teachers and dojang owners, are no longer able to show and convince the hardworking and disciplined kids why taekwondo is useful or neccessary. Many of us can't explaing to a teenager why spending time and money earning a blackbelt is any better than learning to do death defying tricks on a skateboard at the local park, for free. We can't attract the kids wresling in high school or those playing football, baskeball and other sports where tougness is called for. We can't show and convince disciplined adults why they should spend time in a taekwondo dojang instead of enrolling in an MMA school or pursuing Krav Marga, Systema, and a bunch of other combat systems whose instructors insist they are teaching the "real street deal."  We can't even sell taekwondo to the adults who are trying to grow finger muscles everyday, in marathon TV remote thumping excercises. That's in part because too many of us are in no better physical shape than those fingerbuilders.

Along with all that, many taekwondo teachers and dojang owners have discovered you do not have to teach kid and adults that it's neccessary to be disciplined and hardworking to do taekwondo. They've discovered making classes too tough and having very serious curriculae can harm membership and kill a dojang instead of growing it. In fact, many of those teachers -- even the very good -- have come to believe that tough and disciplined youth and adults can be trouble makers in dojangs, because they discourage the many members who like to take it easy.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 8, 2014)

What does tougher mean? Sparring without protective gear? Training like a warrior from a bygone era? If a person wants that type of thing, he should join the military or get into law enforcement. Heck, even work as a bouncer. A TKD school is not pure military training; it never has been either. While it can certainly be intensely demanding, such as for those who make it to high-level competition, it is NOT some bloodsport.


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## Archtkd (Mar 8, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> What does tougher mean? Sparring without protective gear? Training like a warrior from a bygone era? If a person wants that type of thing, he should join the military or get into law enforcement. Heck, even work as a bouncer. A TKD school is not pure military training; it never has been either. While it can certainly be intensely demanding, such as for those who make it to high-level competition, it is NOT some bloodsport.


Good questions


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 8, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Baby boomers lamenting millennials, yet they raised them.


No baby boomers raised generation X and they are fine. Generation Y, now thats a whole other story.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 8, 2014)

ralphmcpherson said:


> No baby boomers raised generation X and they are fine. Generation Y, now thats a whole other story.



Gen X is struggling. Boomers are the most well-off, selfish, take-it-with-me generation the world has ever seen.


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## drop bear (Mar 8, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> What does tougher mean? Sparring without protective gear? Training like a warrior from a bygone era? If a person wants that type of thing, he should join the military or get into law enforcement. Heck, even work as a bouncer. A TKD school is not pure military training; it never has been either. While it can certainly be intensely demanding, such as for those who make it to high-level competition, it is NOT some bloodsport.



A lot of people are choosing physically tough activities just for the challenge and the rewards challenge brings.

I would say fight sports are tough tkd at an elite level would have to be tough. But as I mentioned cross fit sells itself on tough. And that is a booming industry.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tzD9BkXGJ1M

So maybe because tkd is not marketed as tough is the issue. Tough people are going to tough people sports an non tough people are getting a rude shock and going elsewhere.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 8, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Gen X is struggling. Boomers are the most well-off, selfish, take-it-with-me generation the world has ever seen.


Generation X struggling? Not here in Australia they aint. They rode off the back of huge increases in property values just after they got into the market. They have heaps of equity in their homes, the vast majority have investment properties and they cruise around in nice cars.


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## drop bear (Mar 8, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> In the last decade or so, martial arts  decided to market to kids and women.



I again could mention cross fit which markets towards women.

And still succeeds in marketing tough training.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5zvqNHDTf8Y


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## Rumy73 (Mar 8, 2014)

Then go tough. Its your life.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 8, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I again could mention cross fit which markets towards women.


I've never been to crossfit, but would have figured with the weights it would be more guys.


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## drop bear (Mar 8, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I've never been to crossfit, but would have figured with the weights it would be more guys.



Yeah a lot of the really tough stuff is geared to women now.
Tough mudder is popular with women.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z7fFoTimZg

Strong is the new sexy.

I have a theory about that and women soldiers. That the idea that they are not as strong as guys is that their training has previously been a bit crap.

For functional fitness they seem to do OK. But it just takes a few years to develop it.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 8, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Yeah a lot of the really tough stuff is geared to women now.
> Tough mudder is popular with women.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z7fFoTimZg
> ...


Tough mudder is only "tough" for people who do no exercise.  It isnt much of a real challenge for fit people. They market it as a grueling workout, just like a lot of martial arts clubs promote themselves as a "great workout". It may be grueling compared to sitting on the couch watching TV but as far as real exercise goes it is relatively soft in the majority of cases.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 8, 2014)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Tough mudder is only "tough" for people who do no exercise.  It isnt much of a real challenge for fit people.


I think 20 km on flat pavement is pretty challenging, let alone 20 km as an obstacle course.  You don't agree?


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## drop bear (Mar 8, 2014)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Tough mudder is only "tough" for people who do no exercise.  It isnt much of a real challenge for fit people. They market it as a grueling workout, just like a lot of martial arts clubs promote themselves as a "great workout". It may be grueling compared to sitting on the couch watching TV but as far as real exercise goes it is relatively soft in the majority of cases.



Could be. But they promote tough and get numbers. there is tougher courses. And they get numbers.

Up the ante. Longest day.

And girls still do it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rZhDKp00Tz4

http://arminbaniaz.com/2013/05/the-longest-day.html

You can sell tough training to people.

We do a 12 week program taking people off the street and putting them in a mma fight. Or boxing if they want ( no elbows 3 minute rounds)


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## drop bear (Mar 8, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I think 20 km on flat pavement is pretty challenging, let alone 20 km as an obstacle course.  You don't agree?



Going to depend how you do it too. If you are super fit and Bludge through is different to if you are trying to beat a time. If you smashed that course it is going to be a challenge.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KHqujP5vLS4

It is on my bucket list

People are actively choosing to do this.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7tjIDPAeI-o

There has to be a way to get tkd schools that train hard students.


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## Archtkd (Mar 9, 2014)

drop bear said:


> There has to be a way to get tkd schools that train hard students.


 The way is there, but it's not easy and often not lucrative.


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## drop bear (Mar 9, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> The way is there, but it's not easy and often not lucrative.



There has to be a way to create appeal for it.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 9, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I think 20 km on flat pavement is pretty challenging, let alone 20 km as an obstacle course.  You don't agree?


Over here tough mudder was 8klms. I run 40-50 klms a week and I dont consider myself to be overly fit


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## drop bear (Mar 9, 2014)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Over here tough mudder was 8klms. I run 40-50 klms a week and I dont consider myself to be overly fit



I don't think you would get people to participate just because its tough.  Otherwise you can elite level fitness your way out of having any students.

But you can train with the desire to be tough. So instead of people trying to avoid or fight the hard work aspect they embrace it. So even if you are not an elite level athlete you are trying in some way to become one.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 9, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Could be. But they promote tough and get numbers. there is tougher courses. And they get numbers.
> 
> Up the ante. Longest day.
> 
> ...



Lol. Ok this tough guy stuff makes me laugh. Join the military... Or Kobra Kai.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 9, 2014)

drop bear said:


> People are actively choosing to do this.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7tjIDPAeI-o
> 
> There has to be a way to get tkd schools that train hard students.



I watched the video and saw that it was people get eletrically shocked.  I would not do this in TKD - I would be thinking "what's the point?".


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## Rumy73 (Mar 9, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I watched the video and saw that it was people get eletrically shocked.  I would not do this in TKD - I would be thinking "what's the point?".



 It is more like hazing than anything else. I seriously question the guys who are laughing at other people getting hurt.


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## drop bear (Mar 9, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I watched the video and saw that it was people get eletrically shocked.  I would not do this in TKD - I would be thinking "what's the point?".




Well it was funny.

And you are right no real point. So if people are getting electric shocked for no reason. You should be able to sell a little discomfort in tkd.

I am not trying to sell tough mudder I am trying to point out there is a market out there if you product is hard to do tkd.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 9, 2014)

Of course you can market Taekwon-Do, or any martial art, for a high level of fitness. You might even talk to a gym or other fitness facility about hosting a non-"cardio kickboxing" class that is geared to people who are interested in increasing their overall fitness level. It could take a bit of time to build up a student base but it's possible.

I have to say, however, that comparing things to "Tough Mudder" is an analogy that limps a bit. TM seems to me to be more analogous to a _shugyo_ type of training. That it, it's an experience of hardcore training that is geared to people who already have a good base in training. From what little I have seen of it, TM is billed as a special event, one that you don't do everyday. Shugyo is an intense training experience that is undertaken by people who already train and is even more intense than their normal training regime. It's supposed to really put you through your paces, just like Tough Mudder. As such I don't know if having TM as an analogy for general MA training is accurate.

Pax,

Chris


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## drop bear (Mar 9, 2014)

chrispillertkd said:


> Of course you can market Taekwon-Do, or any martial art, for a high level of fitness. You might even talk to a gym or other fitness facility about hosting a non-"cardio kickboxing" class that is geared to people who are interested in increasing their overall fitness level. It could take a bit of time to build up a student base but it's possible.
> 
> I have to say, however, that comparing things to "Tough Mudder" is an analogy that limps a bit. TM seems to me to be more analogous to a _shugyo_ type of training. That it, it's an experience of hardcore training that is geared to people who already have a good base in training. From what little I have seen of it, TM is billed as a special event, one that you don't do everyday. Shugyo is an intense training experience that is undertaken by people who already train and is even more intense than their normal training regime. It's supposed to really put you through your paces, just like Tough Mudder. As such I don't know if having TM as an analogy for general MA training is accurate.
> 
> ...



Fair enough. But cross fit. Boot camp, mma?


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 9, 2014)

drop bear said:


> And you are right no real point. So if people are getting electric shocked for no reason. You should be able to sell a little discomfort in tkd.


I agree in terms of discomfort such as pushing your heart rate and having tired muscles.  What I personally have had an issue with though, is getting is discomfort from injuries and being told to tough it out and continue, resulting in a chronic injury that takes months/years to heal 100%.


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## drop bear (Mar 9, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I agree in terms of discomfort such as pushing your heart rate and having tired muscles.  What I personally have had an issue with though, is getting is discomfort from injuries and being told to tough it out and continue, resulting in a chronic injury that takes months/years to heal 100%.




It depends on the injury. Fight training will usually result in something. You just can't stop every time. What most people lack is focusing on recovery.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 9, 2014)

I am now wise to know that for myself, I am better off to stop if continuing will worsen the injury. I mean both at the time of the injury, and also over the future days/weeks/month.


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## Michael89 (Mar 9, 2014)

i own it to my friend who is karateka for my toughness. he hit me with bo staff. hitting my neck, arms, legs. my nuts. also hit me on my neaves. it wasn't fun but worth it! i haven't done that in awhile.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 9, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Fair enough. But cross fit. Boot camp, mma?



As I said in the first paragraph of my post, of course you can market Taekwon-Do to a population whose main emphasis is going to be getting fit without recourse to running  a cardio-kickboxing type program. But it would take time to build up a client base, partially because you'd have to deal with a general population that sees martial arts in general as something of a kids' activity at this point. BJJ and MMA have largely avoided this because of some very specific, coordinated marketing. (With all the pictures I've seen of MMArtists covered in blood in a caged in octagon I'm not sure anyone would sign their kid up for such an activity. YYMV, of course.) 

How would you start changing people's view of TKD as an activity that like that in the video that was posted in the other thread? It would take a lot of marketing based on TKD's military background, its usefulness in self-defense, its ability to foster a general athleticism (without devolving into simple "tricking"), etc. I'd also emphasize that there are two distinct martial arts (or at least two distinct styles) that sue the same name but have little in common.

Pax,

Chris


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## Thousand Kicks (Mar 9, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> What does tougher mean? Sparring without protective gear? Training like a warrior from a bygone era? If a person wants that type of thing, he should join the military or get into law enforcement. Heck, even work as a bouncer. A TKD school is not pure military training; it never has been either. While it can certainly be intensely demanding, such as for those who make it to high-level competition, it is NOT some bloodsport.



I guess I think of tough in two ways; mentally and physically.

On the physical side. I do not think you have to try to kill each other while training to be tough. However, I think at some point you have to spar and train with intensity and with some amount of contact. TKD is, at it's heart, a self defense system. As such I think it's important for practitioners to understand that training requires contact, that tournament fighting requires contact, that to truly prepare yourself for a self defense scenario, you have to understand what it's like to get hit. That doesn't mean somebody should smack you in the face with a bat every class. But, after some time training a group of students should be okay with turning it up a notch. 

On the mental side. It simply comes down to perseverance. If you have never pushed yourself to you breaking point, then how do you expect to get better? When you're sucking wind, your muscles hurt, and there's still 20 minutes left in class; that's where you find out what you're made of.

I don't think all students of TKD want to go this far. But, for those that say they want to be this great martial artist, there is no magic trick, there's only hard work. I guess lately I don't see many students who really want what they say they want.


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## drop bear (Mar 9, 2014)

chrispillertkd said:


> As I said in the first paragraph of my post, of course you can market Taekwon-Do to a population whose main emphasis is going to be getting fit without recourse to running  a cardio-kickboxing type program. But it would take time to build up a client base, partially because you'd have to deal with a general population that sees martial arts in general as something of a kids' activity at this point. BJJ and MMA have largely avoided this because of some very specific, coordinated marketing. (With all the pictures I've seen of MMArtists covered in blood in a caged in octagon I'm not sure anyone would sign their kid up for such an activity. YYMV, of course.)
> 
> How would you start changing people's view of TKD as an activity that like that in the video that was posted in the other thread? It would take a lot of marketing based on TKD's military background, its usefulness in self-defense, its ability to foster a general athleticism (without devolving into simple "tricking"), etc. I'd also emphasize that there are two distinct martial arts (or at least two distinct styles) that sue the same name but have little in common.
> 
> ...



The how is kind of the question I am asking. If tough is marketable why does tkd suffer from tough training?


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> The how is kind of the question I am asking. If tough is marketable why does tkd suffer from tough training?



I think the question isn't "Is tough marketable?" but is "Is tough more marketable than the alternative?" From what I've seen, the hardcore training is usually a very small part of a school, and not the part that puts food on the table.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk


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## drop bear (Mar 10, 2014)

Jaeimseu said:


> I think the question isn't "Is tough marketable?" but is "Is tough more marketable than the alternative?" From what I've seen, the hardcore training is usually a very small part of a school, and not the part that puts food on the table.
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk



I was assuming the tkd school believed in their own standard though. And rather than lower its expectations turn those expectations into a marketable product.


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## wingchun100 (Mar 10, 2014)

Thousand Kicks said:


> I am asking this question based on some conversations and experiences I've had over the past couple of years.
> 
> I seem to notice that the current generation of TKD pracxticioners seem less willing to put in the work required to be a good martial artist. It's like the mentality is "What is the least I have to do to be the next Bruce Lee?" Whether it's tournament sparring or just normal practice, I see people who aren't really interested in good ole fashion hard work.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the wild world of the instant gratification generation. It was there when I grew up in the 90s and, from what I see, it is getting only worse. I mean, we live in a world where you don't really have to earn ANYTHING anymore. You want your favorite band's latest CD? You don't have to work an hour or two to afford it; you can download it illegally and free! It's not shocking that this mentality would spread to other aspects of life.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> The how is kind of the question I am asking. If tough is marketable why does tkd suffer from tough training?



Demographics, mostly. People realized there were more kids interested in after school activities than there were adults interested in learning a martial art. 

With the popularity of MMA, BJJ, and other programs I have kind of been waiting for Taekwondo to do an about face and start playing up to adults again. (Even the "Hey, here's your chance to go to the Olympics!" starts out with kids.) So far, not so much. There are plenty of ITF schools I know of that have children as  the majority of their students but these schools (many more than KKW schools that I know of, of course) don't seem to be quite as after-school-day-care oriented as some other TKD schools I've seen. YMMV.

Pax,

Chris


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## Rumy73 (Mar 10, 2014)

chrispillertkd said:


> Demographics, mostly. People realized there were more kids interested in after school activities than there were adults interested in learning a martial art.
> 
> With the popularity of MMA, BJJ, and other programs I have kind of been waiting for Taekwondo to do an about face and start playing up to adults again. (Even the "Hey, here's your chance to go to the Olympics!" starts out with kids.) So far, not so much. There are plenty of ITF schools I know of that have children as  the majority of their students but these schools (many more than KKW schools that I know of, of course) don't seem to be quite as after-school-day-care oriented as some other TKD schools I've seen. YMMV.
> 
> ...



I call bs, respectfully. Itf, wtf ymmv per school not on the whole.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 10, 2014)

You might want to spend a little time reading what I actually wrote. Here's the germane quote: 

"There are plenty of ITF schools I know of that have children as  the majority of their students but these schools (many more than KKW schools that I know of, of course) don't seem to be quite as after-school-day-care oriented as some other TKD schools I've seen. YMMV." Please let me know where I said anything about organizations as a whole in there.

Pax,

Chris


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## StudentCarl (Mar 10, 2014)

Toughness starts at home, but it thrives in training. To me it's no different than the skill progression from white belt onward. Everybody starts out uncoordinated but interested. The ones who have learned to work through (healthy) exercise pain fit in easily. Others progress just like their coordination if you have built the community that can teach people to enjoy suffering. It's true that many just don't want to be too uncomfortable, but that's always been the case. If you can keep enough camaraderie and fun in the suffering, more will stay than you might think. I suppose some will argue that being tough is more an intrinsic trait than a learned one. I do think it's heavily shaped at a young age, but I also think it can be improved by training. The key is to be gradual, taking people to the edge of agony and challenging them to keep going. When you push past what you thought were limits, it feels great.  That's what makes pride and memories. The trick is to build the trust and engagement to enable you to lead people that far. People who have found that often seek similar people, but the real trick IMO is to draw in people who have never gone there and build them up to feel that rush of agonizing joy. To me that's the goal: not just making athletes into better athletes but taking regular people and helping them become athletes. By athletes I mean people who have honed their toughness through training.

Carl


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Rumy73 (Mar 10, 2014)

Drop bear really wants to live in ancient Sparta, me thinks.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I was assuming the tkd school believed in their own standard though. And rather than lower its expectations turn those expectations into a marketable product.


I was at a school for a few years where class intensity depended on who showed up.  If the more talented, aggressive kids showed up, class was intense.  If it was the less gifted / less athletic, class was easier. At the end of the day, it was a tkd business, so they felt they needed to tailor the classes according to ability and desires.

Or to put it a different way, standards depended on the students more than the instructors.


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## drop bear (Mar 10, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I was at a school for a few years where class intensity depended on who showed up.  If the more talented, aggressive kids showed up, class was intense.  If it was the less gifted / less athletic, class was easier. At the end of the day, it was a tkd business, so they felt they needed to tailor the classes according to ability and desires.
> 
> Or to put it a different way, standards depended on the students more than the instructors.



I go to a school that tapers its intensity but that was up to the instructors. Our school does not have a vegi patch. Fighters are expected to mix in with hobbyists.

I prefer that just because it means people want to be there and achieve something. Which I feel is a more productive and more proffesional way to train.


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## drop bear (Mar 10, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Drop bear really wants to live in ancient Sparta, me thinks.



I want to turn up to training and train like I want to be there. I want to train hard. And I feel it is my limitations that need to be changed not the trainings.

I want to train with others who have the same mind set because then we inspire each other.

This groaning and complaining during hard exercise. Arguing with the instructors. Being slow to start training. I think you start putting more effort to fighting the training than doing it.

I want to get as much out of training as I can and for me that means. I dedicate my time in the gym to the training.

And I am essentially a hobbyist. I am never making a career out of it. But if I can be at a level that I can help somone else do just that I am happy.


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## TKDTony2179 (Mar 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> There has to be a way to create appeal for it.



That is it. It has to appear tough. Now days it looks soft and just fun for people to do. Like other people said, if you don't look like you work out at all and you are selling TKD then it gives the image that hard work isn't needed. Sorry to say this and I don't mean to offend anyone here but fat is looked upon as lazy and if you are a TKD instructor and you are fat. That says lazy to people. 

Even ex muay thai champs look out of shape but they also look like they could kick butt.


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## wingchun100 (Mar 11, 2014)

I don't know if it has been said in another reply already, but another thing you have to think about: not everyone in a martial arts school is a super hardcore dedicated martial artist. Some of them are there just because they are kids forced into it by parents who want them to have a hobby other than vegging out on the couch. I went to one school where a LOT of people joined simply because they drove by the school, thought it sounded interesting and wanted to check it out. Most of those kind disappear after a few months.


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## Marnetmar (Mar 11, 2014)

One thing I've noticed about a lot of modern martial arts schools is that students are not taught the basics of or application of learned techniques to sparring before it takes place. Rather, the instructor has the students go over a form/kata and then say "Okay, spar!" As a result it either turns into generic kickboxing or students will get intimidated and quit.


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## Thousand Kicks (Mar 11, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I was at a school for a few years where class intensity depended on who showed up. If the more talented, aggressive kids showed up, class was intense. If it was the less gifted / less athletic, class was easier. At the end of the day, it was a tkd business, so they felt they needed to tailor the classes according to ability and desires.
> 
> Or to put it a different way, standards depended on the students more than the instructors.



This is understandable. As a assistant instructor, I come up against this a lot, But, I made a decision to run the class the way I want and just tell people to push themselves to try and keep up. I also emphasize not to overexert yourself. 

I just don't want one group of students to think that they are exempt from the hard stuff because they aren't one of the talented aggresive people. In my class you do what is asked unless there is a legit reason you can't. My head instructor is the same. I might vary the difficulty of the techniques based on the cross section of people, but not the intensity.

I recently joined a Title Boxing fitness gym as a way to keep in shape because my schedule only allows me to go to TKD once maybe twice a week. As you can imagine they get people of all fitness levels in one class. The class doesn't change. The instructors do what they want and expect people to do their best to keep up. The workouts are extremely challenging. But, these gyms are also very successful. So, you can push people and have a successful business.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 11, 2014)

Thousand Kicks said:


> In my class you do what is asked unless there is a legit reason you can't.


Sounds good - I enjoy intensity and pushing myself, and hate getting paired with a lazy kid (e.g., in an exericse of 50 syncronized turning kicks) who says "I feel tired" and stops, thereby hindering my own training.  Nonetheless, all I can say is "just try" and hope he puts half an effort.

So getting back to the thread, some lack toughness, but IMO it seems the more natural students feel the reward of pushing themselves and enjoy doing so.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 12, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Sounds good - I enjoy intensity and pushing myself, and hate getting paired with a lazy kid (e.g., in an exericse of 50 syncronized turning kicks) who says "I feel tired" and stops, thereby hindering my own training.  Nonetheless, all I can say is "just try" and hope he puts half an effort.
> 
> So getting back to the thread, some lack toughness, but IMO it seems the more natural students feel the reward of pushing themselves and enjoy doing so.



Why does one need a dojang to work hard on tkd? Put an ad in the local paper. It might be a better way to find people with similar interests. My friend who took karate placed an ad for sparring partners. He got a good little group together. They trained at the rec center.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 12, 2014)

Here's an article in today's National Post (from Canada) newspaper talking about how "tough" hockey players are, playing with serious injuries, needing painkillers.  Personally I think it's crazy, and I hope no TKD schools expect similar "toughness".

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014...ying-make-hockey-players-tougher-than-others/


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 12, 2014)

Here's something to think about when someone talks about how tough the training at a particular school is or isn't...

Suppose you wanted to do some weight lifting to get stronger and you were scouting out potential gyms.  A friend tells you "at gym A everybody bench presses 350 pounds, but at gym B everybody only bench presses 60 pounds.  Gym A is obviously the real deal, and B is a McGym."

Would that even make sense?  Weight lifting is a progressive form of training.  In order to get results, you need to start out at a level your body can safely handle, push your limits just enough, then gradually increase your weights as your body adapts and gets stronger.  This has to be geared to the individual. Asking a professional football player to practice curls with 5 pound hand weights is a ridiculous waste of time.  Asking an out of shape, 110 pound, 50-year old woman to deadlift 500 pounds is an abusive attempt to injure someone.  One size does not fit all.

Why should martial arts training be any different?  Different people are physically, mentally, and emotionally prepared for different levels of training intensity.  The appropriate level of training for a Navy Seal is not the appropriate level of training for a naturally non-aggressive couch potato who has never been in a fight or played a contact sport.  Just like weight training -  you have to find the right intensity for an individual, then take them just far enough outside of that comfort zone that they can grow. Remember, the individual's mental/emotional readiness is just as important as their physical readiness.  

There is the complicating factor that martial arts is normally practiced with training partners. (Unless you practice an art which is all about solo kata.)  This limits the ability of a teacher to completely individualize the level of training for each student.  Still, you can have separate classes for students who are ready for different levels of intensity.  Within a class you can adjust the levels of intensity by assigning appropriate training partners and fine-tuning the training drills as needed.

In summary, it's not the absolute level of training intensity that matters.  It's finding the right level of training intensity for the individual student to learn and grow.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 12, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Here's an article in today's National Post (from Canada) newspaper talking about how "tough" hockey players are, playing with serious injuries, needing painkillers.  Personally I think it's crazy, and I hope no TKD schools expect similar "toughness".
> 
> http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014...ying-make-hockey-players-tougher-than-others/



A wise man knows his limits.


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## Thousand Kicks (Mar 12, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Here's something to think about when someone talks about how tough the training at a particular school is or isn't...
> 
> Suppose you wanted to do some weight lifting to get stronger and you were scouting out potential gyms. A friend tells you "at gym A everybody bench presses 350 pounds, but at gym B everybody only bench presses 60 pounds. Gym A is obviously the real deal, and B is a McGym."
> 
> ...



I agree with what you said. So, my issue is not that the out of shape student can't do the same things as the in shape student, it's that they don't even try. And, when pushed to make themselves better, they either quit or rationalize their performance.

To use your example with the gym. For the group of people who can only bench 60lbs; I'm fine with this if it's the best the can do. Two months later if they can still only bench 60lbs; then I say they aren't trying or their not serious about getting better. 

Martial Arts is not a sport. In sports usually the best get the best training. In Martial Arts we look to be the best we can personally be regardless of the skill levels of others. All I ask is that a student give me their best. What I can't stand is students who coast through class then lament about not progressing the way they want, or saying they aren't being challenged with advanced techniques. You can't compare two staudents and say "Why can't you do what that other person is doing?" It's not fair. But, you can say that student is giving me their best, why can't you give me your best.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 12, 2014)

Thousand Kicks said:


> All I ask is that a student give me their best.


I once said "at least try" to a kid who was giving maybe 25% effort during a poomsae practice.  His answer was unfortunately factual, "ah, it's good enough to pass my belt test".


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## WaterGal (Mar 23, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I am now wise to know that for myself, I am better off to stop if continuing will worsen the injury. I mean both at the time of the injury, and also over the future days/weeks/month.



Hah, yeah, I learned that one the hard way.  "Oh, it doesn't hurt that bad, I'll just take some Tylenol and stretch", and I ended up needing surgery, when maybe it would have healed on it's own if I'd stayed off it for a few weeks.


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## WaterGal (Mar 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> The how is kind of the question I am asking. If tough is marketable why does tkd suffer from tough training?



Because people usually sign up, or sign their kids up, for TKD and similar because they want a fun exercise class that will help them be more discipline and confident and maybe learn a little self-defense.  They don't sign up for really seriously tough training, and will likely complain if they get it.  Just like if you signed up to do Zumba and you got there and it was a Crossfit class.  But if you marketed your TKD school as a great place for adults to kick each other in the head and get ripped, then whatever students you got would probably be happy for a really tough class.


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