# Seven people dead by baseball bats



## bart (Aug 9, 2004)

I saw two disturbing stories in the news. The first  one is from Florida where six people were killed with bats and knives.  The second is from my hometown here in Sacramento where a man went on a rampage with a bat and killed 1 man and injured 6, some of whom were children. 

Sad incidents like these always reinforce my conviction that self-defense against a weapon is perhaps the most important real life technical skill that martial artists need to know. In both of these incidents the attack came out of the blue and was somewhat unavoidable at least at the moment. 

Gun enthusiasts would be correct in saying that the assailants could have been shot. Dog enthusiasts would also be correct in saying that a guard dog could possibly have deterred the assailants. My concern is about their hand to hand against the bat. When I give demos or talks about FMA, I always stress the DOJ stats that say if you are going to be ASSAULTED most likely it will be without a weapon (2/3 w/o weapon, 1/3 w/weapons). But if you are going to be KILLED, it will most likely be with a weapon and close to half of those occur not with guns or vehicles, but with blunt objects, like a bat, and cutting instruments, like knives. 

How much time does everybody spend on teaching how to defend against a weapon empty handed in a realistic manner? I'm not talking about disarms, because ultimately pursuing those as your primary goal is unrealistic if the opponent really knows how to use the weapon. Do you ever have people spar where one has a weapon and the other has nothing? Does anybody use improvised weapons in sparring? Currently when someone is disarmed in our sparring, I don't stop them. I let them continue fighting unarmed because of the self defense aspect of the sparring. Any thoughts?


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## Guro Harold (Aug 9, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> I saw two disturbing stories in the news. The first  one is from Florida where six people were killed with bats and knives.  The second is from my hometown here in Sacramento where a man went on a rampage with a bat and killed 1 man and injured 6, some of whom were children.
> 
> Sad incidents like these always reinforce my conviction that self-defense against a weapon is perhaps the most important real life technical skill that martial artists need to know. In both of these incidents the attack came out of the blue and was somewhat unavoidable at least at the moment.
> 
> ...


Great Points, Bart!!!


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## arnisandyz (Aug 9, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> I saw two disturbing stories in the news. The first  one is from Florida where six people were killed with bats and knives.



The one in Deltona FL is only 1 1/2 hours from me. 6 people murdered over an X-box? It made me sick to my stomach. 

I agree, realistic emptyhand sparring vs different weapons is a must. A drill that I want to start doing is placing various improvised weapons (simulations) in various areas of the room, have the attacker "break in" and see if its possible to aquire a weapon before engaging.  I think most peope will be surprised at how little time you have. This could also be supplimented by giving a warning (like a dog barking or house alarm sounding) before the attacker enters the room. I love my German Shepard!


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## Hagakure (Aug 9, 2004)

That is very interesting. I have always wonder what would be the best way to disarm a man with a bat or something else similar.


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## arnisandyz (Aug 9, 2004)

In the Florida inncident, the victims HAD a dog, so they may or may not have had advance warning (depending on the dog and whether they were in tune with it and where the dog was).  Personally, my dog stays right by our room and I can wake from a pretty deep sleep from just a yelp or wimper (telling me she has to go to the bathroom) let a lone her bark. I also arm the house alarm at night. As Bart mentioned, many 'dog" or "gun" people may not have trained unarmed vs weapon, but I also question how many people in Martial Arts cover the bases prior to a confrontation to either deter or give early warning.


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## Guro Harold (Aug 9, 2004)

There are some control/disarm techniques in Modern Arnis that we have practiced with plastic bats so that we can swing them full speed.

The other point is that without training, some people will freeze at the sign of a weapon.


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## bart (Aug 9, 2004)

Hagakure said:
			
		

> That is very interesting. I have always wonder what would be the best way to disarm a man with a bat or something else similar.




I think going into something like that with the goal of disarming is not the best strategically. In a serious situation like that, you need to go in with the goal of depriving the person of the ability to hurt you (ie: vision, airway, mobility, etc) and other people. A bat is also not bladed, so the need to control the weapon completely goes down and you can focus more on eliminating the attacking individual.

I've done the plastic bat before. It works pretty well as a training tool. Among friends we've used a broomstick along with a WEKAF mask to try stuff out. That gave a little bit more flavor of realism because you could swing with more power and speed. I think that if we were to go full tilt with a bat, we might need a little motocross armor and a helmet. Mistakes at full speed could be "deadly".


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## K Williams (Aug 9, 2004)

Umm...if you do decide to train full speed with baseball bats, using a motorcycle helmet might work for the first blow. After that, the helmet would need to be retired. They are not made to take repeated impacts. Helmets are supposed to be inspected by the manufacturer after an accident to determine if they are still in good shape. They are also to be retired after 5 years of use. I'm no where near an arnis expert(I barely even train at the moment...just solo work.  ), but I don't think training full power with baseball bats is a good idea. Especially considering the fact that you'll be aiming for the weak spots on the head: temples, crown of the head.

If I was attacked by someone weilding a bat, I'd either close the range before the swing, or feint/dodge the first swing then close with a knife(providing I have time to draw and open it). And there's also one other option: run! If I think I could outrun the guy I might run.


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## KempoJoe (Aug 9, 2004)

I agree w/Bart about controlling the bat w/training, although in real situation the man w/the bat is just swinging disarming should be possible, or I also agrre with williams and run.


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## Guro Harold (Aug 9, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> I think going into something like that with the goal of disarming is not the best strategically. In a serious situation like that, you need to go in with the goal of depriving the person of the ability to hurt you (ie: vision, airway, mobility, etc) and other people. A bat is also not bladed, so the need to control the weapon completely goes down and you can focus more on eliminating the attacking individual.
> 
> I've done the plastic bat before. It works pretty well as a training tool. Among friends we've used a broomstick along with a WEKAF mask to try stuff out. That gave a little bit more flavor of realism because you could swing with more power and speed. I think that if we were to go full tilt with a bat, we might need a little motocross armor and a helmet. Mistakes at full speed could be "deadly".


Going along with Bart, the goal should be to control and disable the attacker, if a disarm occurs in the mist, then fine.

Helmets are certified for certain safety limits and tolerances so I don't know if I would conduct full power training with a live bat.  The reprocussions  could be deadly, and if not deadly, very costly!


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## Guro Harold (Aug 9, 2004)

KempoJoe said:
			
		

> I agree w/Bart about controlling the bat w/training, although in real situation the man w/the bat is just swinging disarming should be possible, or I also agrre with williams and run.


Hi KempoJoe,

Thanks for posting and welcome to MartialTalk!!!

Palusut


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## bart (Aug 9, 2004)

K Williams said:
			
		

> Umm...if you do decide to train full speed with baseball bats, ...
> If I was attacked by someone weilding a bat, I'd either close the range before the swing, or feint/dodge the first swing then close with a knife(providing I have time to draw and open it). And there's also one other option: run! If I think I could outrun the guy I might run.




No doubt, going full bore with a bat would be pushing all acceptable limits. I would advocate something like a broomstick or something of similar weight as a bat but with padding and a striking surface with some give. I think that the most important thing to get out of training for that situation would be dealing with the speed that the weapon can come at you. I think to get optimal training with minimal injury that both sides of the exercise should be armored as well.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 9, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> No doubt, going full bore with a bat would be pushing all acceptable limits. I would advocate something like a broomstick or something of similar weight as a bat but with padding and a striking surface with some give. I think that the most important thing to get out of training for that situation would be dealing with the speed that the weapon can come at you. I think to get optimal training with minimal injury that both sides of the exercise should be armored as well.



For $5 to $10 you can by foam bats with plastic centers, that work quite well. You get the handle effect, only you do not get the mass or weight when swinging or struck.

I train for empty hands against weapons, used it a few times as well.  

With respect

:asian:


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## Cruentus (Aug 12, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> For $5 to $10 you can by foam bats with plastic centers, that work quite well. You get the handle effect, only you do not get the mass or weight when swinging or struck.
> 
> I train for empty hands against weapons, used it a few times as well.
> 
> ...



Until my little brother hit's the foam bat with a stick and breaks it, TOTALLY pissing you off... :2xBird2: (where'd you get those bats, anyways?)

Bart...on the DOJ stats...you might want to mention that even though you have a 2/3 of a chance of being attacked without a weapon, those stats include domestic violence, child abuse, and date rape, which make up the majority of violent assults. Therefore, if one is not in a place in life to be a victim of domestic violence or child abuse, and if one is cautious enough not to be a victim of date rape, then the chances of being assulted by a weapon are greater then being assulted w/o one. Just a thought to keep the stats in perspective... :ultracool


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## MA-Caver (Aug 13, 2004)

Never mind training *against* a bat I just wish someone would take a bat upside Luis Orosco's (Sacramento incident) head and groin for hitting those two little girls...  :whip: and do it in a manner that grey matter leaks out of his ears.... da sumbeech! When a guy goes nuts like that they're better off removed from the gene pool...permanently. :angry:


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 11, 2004)

I just don't understand people... I try to think that most people, most of the time, are trying their best....  I don't know.  I just don't know.  I couldn't hack it as an LEO - I would be puking my guts out at incidents like this.  People can be monsters.


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