# running out of money



## billc (Dec 10, 2010)

When socialists run out of money, the people who enabled the system better watch out.  If you check out any news wire about the students in England who attacked the royals, you'll see some interesting video and photos.   Why don't these "students" do the same thing so many American students do, work one or more jobs and pay your own way through school.  Maybe if the taxes in England weren't so high, more wealthy people would set up more scholarships.


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2010)

Oh goodie, a know all who can sort all our problems out.

Right you do know we aren't a socialist country? We have a Conservative and Lib Dem coalition, the 'socialists' are in Opposition.

You do know to that the 'students' shown rioting aren't students but are trouble makers and idiots.

Taxes here are our concern you keep your criticisms for your government, students here do work  to keep themselves through university so keep your snide little remarks for your television and try understanding the situation in your own country first before you decide to tell us what to do.

Btw our Royals - we'll attack them if we want to, we like a good riot every few years keeps the Royals and the government on their toes, we don't like them to get too cosy, we like to remind them every so often that we can behead the Royals and put our own parliament in, it's good for democracy.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 10, 2010)

It's an interesting question, aye.  I might have had my fees paid and gotten a grant when I did my first degree way back at the beginning of the '80's but I still worked as well.

The problem is that many of these 'protestors' are too used to the "Bank of Mum and Dad" and don't realise that sometimes you have to work to get something rather than having it handed to you.  

It is also the case that far too many people are being let into a university education that do not have the wherewithal to be there.  In my day {gruff Yorkskire voice} about 3% to 5% of young students were bright enough to qualify for university.  Now the statistics are more like 50%.  Is the youth of today really ten times brighter than my generation?

As to the attack on the Prince of Wales, I am sure we have some nice comfy prisons for those responsible.  Once they are identified they should be able to learn the important lesson of 'consequences' that they have so far been shielded from all their lives (assuming that it wasn't a bunch of political activists masquerading as students of course).


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> It's an interesting question, aye. I might have had my fees paid and gotten a grant when I did my first degree way back at the beginning of the '80's but I still worked as well.
> 
> The problem is that many of these 'protestors' are too used to the "Bank of Mum and Dad" and don't realise that sometimes you have to work to get something rather than having it handed to you.
> 
> ...


 

The RAF sponsored me through uni.

I'm up for a proper discussion on the student issue but not when someone who is not British _looks down their nose at us sneering at us_. It would be good to get the facts right in the first place.


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## Nomad (Dec 10, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I'm up for a proper discussion on the student issue but not when someone who is not British _looks down their nose at us sneering at us_. It would be good to get the facts right in the first place.



Right.  We all know that traditionally, the brits are supposed to be the ones looking down their noses at the rest of us plebes (kidding!)


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## K-man (Dec 10, 2010)

billcihak said:


> When socialists run out of money, the people who enabled the system better watch out. If you check out any news wire about the students in England who attacked the royals, you'll see some interesting video and photos. Why don't these "students" do the same thing so many American students do, work one or more jobs and pay your own way through school. Maybe if the taxes in England weren't so high, more wealthy people would set up more scholarships.


... or they could do what America has just done when they ran out of money and just print some more and call it 'economic restructuring'!


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## K-man (Dec 10, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Oh goodie, a know all who can sort all our problems out.
> 
> Right you do know we aren't a socialist country? We have a Conservative and Lib Dem coalition, the 'socialists' are in Opposition.
> 
> ...





> Right you do know we aren't a socialist country? We have a Conservative and Lib Dem coalition, the 'socialists' are in Opposition.


 Do you have the same problem we do? How do you tell them apart? :erg:

Seriously though, it does look bad on the telly.

Australian University fees are now $80,000 to $100,000 per course and if you divide that by 4 or 5 you get the cost per year. That makes our fees more expensive than Britain's but the students don't pay up front. They incur a debt then repay the money over a long period when they are earning more than a certain amount. :asian:


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2010)

Nomad said:


> Right. We all know that traditionally, the brits are supposed to be the ones looking down their noses at the rest of us plebes (kidding!)


 
Ah there you are wrong! it's the English that do that, ask the Scots lol! More specifically it's the people from Surrey, they feel they are the centre of the world 

I don't think a little scrote should be sneering at us when he can't actually manage to cut and paste yet. He's run down his own country and is now starting on ours.


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## granfire (Dec 10, 2010)

(scrote?)


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## K-man (Dec 10, 2010)

granfire said:


> (scrote?)


 
-noun- Literally short for scrotum. When a person, usually a male, is so useless and insignificant that they do not deserve the tiny effort it takes to spit out a second offensive syllable; less than a scrotum.
"just say no to crack" was all I could think of as I watched that snivelling scrote crawl the room on his hands and knees looking for a rock....


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## granfire (Dec 10, 2010)

K-man said:


> -noun- Literally short for scrotum. When a person, usually a male, is so useless and insignificant that they do not deserve the tiny effort it takes to spit out a second offensive syllable; less than a scrotum.
> "just say no to crack" was all I could think of as I watched that snivelling scrote crawl the room on his hands and knees looking for a rock....



<snork>

I was not sure though figured as much...thought it was a Brit special...
:lfao:


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## Flying Crane (Dec 10, 2010)

K-man said:


> -noun- Literally short for scrotum. When a person, usually a male, is so useless and insignificant that they do not deserve the tiny effort it takes to spit out a second offensive syllable; less than a scrotum.
> "just say no to crack" was all I could think of as I watched that snivelling scrote crawl the room on his hands and knees looking for a rock....


 
my god, that is really funny.:rofl::asian:


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## billc (Dec 10, 2010)

Yes, American politicians have spent us into a looming disaster as well.  The funny thing is when these same people tell us the solution is to let them raise taxes, so that they can get more money to solve the problem.


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> my god, that is really funny.:rofl::asian:


 
I'm trying not to let Bob catch on, he'll add half my vocabulary to the censorship thingy!

It probably looks worse than it is, Camilla would have been saying 'I say chaps, feck orf', Charles would have thought the peasants were doing some sort of street dance to welcome him. 
The students and the police were just having a bit of fun. It's a student's job to be revolting and the police's job to hit them over the head with truncheons.


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## granfire (Dec 10, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I'm trying not to let Bob catch on, he'll add half my vocabulary to the censorship thingy!
> 
> It probably looks worse than it is, Camilla would have been saying 'I say chaps, feck orf', Charles would have thought the peasants were doing some sort of street dance to welcome him.
> The students and the police were just having a bit of fun. It's a student's job to be revolting and the police's job to hit them over the head with truncheons.



LOL, I can just imagine...


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## Flying Crane (Dec 10, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I'm trying not to let Bob catch on, he'll add half my vocabulary to the censorship thingy!
> 
> It probably looks worse than it is, Camilla would have been saying 'I say chaps, feck orf', Charles would have thought the peasants were doing some sort of street dance to welcome him.
> The students and the police were just having a bit of fun. It's a student's job to be revolting and the police's job to hit them over the head with truncheons.


 
I'm gonna have to pay attention and learn a few things to use on my Sister-In-Law, when she's home visiting from London...


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## billc (Dec 10, 2010)

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/j...-mckay-quit-whining-and-raise-your-own-taxes/


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## K-man (Dec 10, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I'm trying not to let Bob catch on, he'll add half my vocabulary to the censorship thingy!


 Sorry Tez, but I just love it when you talk dirty!!


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## Blade96 (Dec 10, 2010)

billcihak said:


> When socialists run out of money, the people who enabled the system better watch out.  If you check out any news wire about the students in England who attacked the royals, you'll see some interesting video and photos.   Why don't these "students" do the same thing so many American students do, work one or more jobs and pay your own way through school.  Maybe if the taxes in England weren't so high, more wealthy people would set up more scholarships.



I couldnt get a job, because nobody would hire me. Were it not for my father paying my tuition, I wouldn't have my Bachelor of Arts degree.  Maybe you should realize getting a job and earning enough to pay the high tuition aint as easy as you make it sound.


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## billc (Dec 10, 2010)

What people need is tuition reform.  The cost of education has increased way beyond any of the other goods and services that people use.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 11, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I wouldn't have my Bachelor of Arts degree.



There's your problem right there...


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## Blade96 (Dec 11, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> There's your problem right there...



Huh?


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## Cryozombie (Dec 11, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Huh?



Nevermind, its a joke, if you got a B.S. you'd make money, with a B.A. you have to starve... 

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.


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## Blade96 (Dec 11, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> Nevermind, its a joke, if you got a B.S. you'd make money, with a B.A. you have to starve...
> 
> Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.



Oh my bad. Jokes are cool :angel:


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## Nomad (Dec 13, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I couldnt get a job, because nobody would hire me. Were it not for my father paying my tuition, I wouldn't have my Bachelor of Arts degree.  Maybe you should realize getting a job and earning enough to pay the high tuition aint as easy as you make it sound.



Wait, doesn't that bring us right back to square one on the prostitution/stripping arguments? :angel:

*ducks under whatever Blade's about to throw at him*


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## David43515 (Dec 13, 2010)

What struck me was when the news mentioned that the Uni fees had tripled (sounds like a hell of an increase).....to aproximately $14,000US per year.  I know most Americans would be doing Toyota jumps and dancing in the streets if tuition were only $14K per year.


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## Big Don (Dec 13, 2010)

David43515 said:


> What struck me was when the news mentioned that the Uni fees had tripled (sounds like a hell of an increase).....to aproximately $14,000US per year.  I know most Americans would be doing Toyota jumps and dancing in the streets if tuition were only $14K per year.


Toyota jumps! Man that dates you, crap, that dates us...


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 13, 2010)

billcihak said:


> Yes, American politicians have spent us into a looming disaster as well.  The funny thing is when these same people tell us the solution is to let them raise taxes, so that they can get more money to solve the problem.



They spent us into disaster by cutting the very taxes they needed to pay for wars and such and called it stimulating the economy.  There is no way out of this mess that doesn't involve raising taxes.  Anyone that tells you different is selling something, or thinks you're an idiot.


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## Big Don (Dec 14, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> They spent us into disaster by cutting the very taxes they needed to pay for wars and such and called it stimulating the economy.  There is no way out of this mess that doesn't involve raising taxes.  Anyone that tells you different is selling something, or thinks you're an idiot.


Um, no.
When you, personally, don't have enough money, do you demand more from your boss? Or do you cut spending? You cut spending! Government needs to do the same. Cutting the fat, and, as long as we are at it, cutting out the stupid crap government spends money on would allow a lot of actually needed things to go forward with more money AND lower taxes. Besides, do a little research, the Bush tax cuts you rail against, led to the HIGHEST tax revenues in history.


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## Blade96 (Dec 14, 2010)

billcihak said:


> What people need is tuition reform.  The cost of education has increased way beyond any of the other goods and services that people use.



That's an idea. =]



Nomad said:


> Wait, doesn't that bring us right back to square one on the prostitution/stripping arguments? :angel:
> 
> *ducks under whatever Blade's about to throw at him*



Hah. I actually laughed out loud at this. :angel:

*flicks something back at Nomad* 

There. Got ya back.

smart aleck


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2010)

It's relative though to what your parents earn, if they are on low incomes it doesn't matter how 'low' the fees are, they won't be able to afford to pay them. Students will still have to work _and they do_... for their living and boarding expenses even if their tuition fees are paid for. Students who want to be doctors, vets etc have a lot longer training sometimes up to 7 years and  very high tuition fees. The students can get loans but they have to be paid back, this has the effect of people looking for high paid jobs when they leave uni, not a bad thing of course but the lower paid jobs like medical research which are vital for the rest of us are being shunned as the have students loans to pay off. It also means students will look for higher paid jobs wherever they can and this is often out of the country aso we don't get the benefit of their education.
Many people think higher education is only for some but I don't see why, education must be for everyone a right not a privilege, life long education should be encouraged. Not just academic education, education on evrything to allow people to get the best jobs they can. Education is the key to so much.

Interestingly the 'students' indentified as being around the Royal car are professional anarchists and agitators from abroad as well as here. It shouldn't be a surprise though to those who've watch the G8 conferences though.

One of the ways students can earn money is to act as demonstrators for the Met police training college when they are training police officers to contain demos, I think that job may now be given to others lol!


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 14, 2010)

Big Don said:


> Um, no.
> When you, personally, don't have enough money, do you demand more from your boss? Or do you cut spending? You cut spending!



+1.

If your lifestyle does not match your income pattern without some really dodgy math, then it is not sustainable. This applies to everyone, as many people have found out the hard way when the mortgage crisis really hit home.

Without going into the discussion or what has to be cut and by how much, it is a fact that the government should probably cut some things.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 14, 2010)

Just a point that I'm not sure has been made yet about these 'poor downtrodden' students saddled with debt.

The 'price point' at which re-payment of their loans starts to take place is higher than what my salary is now! That's with three degrees and fifteen years seniority in my current position.

So my impression is that it's a lot of high emotion and unrest about a false perception really. 

Even leaving aside that very salient point, the much quoted £9000 fee per year is a maximum not a mandatory amount (tho' there is of course a tendency for maximums to become the mean in such matters ).


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> Just a point that I'm not sure has been made yet about these 'poor downtrodden' students saddled with debt.
> 
> The 'price point' at which re-payment of their loans starts to take place is higher than what my salary is now! That's with three degrees and fifteen years seniority in my current position.
> 
> ...


 

Having put my son through uni I can tell you it costs an arm and two legs! That was just at Middlesborough not a 'big' uni. A vet working with my daughter and on a small salary was still having to pay back student loans. At the moment you start paying back student loans when you earn £15,000 a year.They aren't interest free.

The main protest is about the Lib Dems going back on their pre election promise of not putting fees up, it was quite a public promise with photo calls, press conferences etc and now as soon as they have actually made it into an election albeit one they haven't won they are going along with the Tories and putting fees up. Get the students votes then stab then in the back, no wonder the students are angry.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 14, 2010)

Interesting, Tez. That is far lower than the figure that I have read which, as I noted, was actually higher than my salary! Given that the source of that was the BBC, I find my faith in news reporting in the modern era takes another hit.

As to the rationale behind the protests, that I don't have any issue with. The way the protests are being carried out I most sincerely do. It's not often that you will find me in agreement with David Cameron but those people involved in criminal acts during these public outbursts should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

As I'm a monarchist, I think you can guess what I think should happen to those involved in the attack on Prince Charles .

EDIT:  Hmmm, I wonder if the difference in opinion on the payback threshold comes from my thinking in Net terms whereas the legislation uses Gross?


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> Interesting, Tez. That is far lower than the figure that I have read which, as I noted, was actually higher than my salary! Given that the source of that was the BBC, I find my faith in news reporting in the modern era takes another hit.
> 
> As to the rationale behind the protests, that I don't have any issue with. The way the protests are being carried out I most sincerely do. It's not often that you will find me in agreement with David Cameron but those people involved in criminal acts during these public outbursts should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
> 
> ...


 

The figures I quoted are what they are at the moment not what is projected. They come from the government site as the students pay it back as PAYE.

I think only a small proportion of students were involved in the actual violent parts of the demo, the rest seem to be renta-mob, known anarchists and rioters have joined in, some of the same faces pop up all over the world (there must be money in anarchy!) whenever thers a big conference and a demo is planned.


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## Steve (Dec 14, 2010)

Technically a little off the original topic, but having to do with college tuition.  While I can't speak for Britain, it's possible in America to put oneself through college.  Starting with a very well developed community/two year college program in America, students can receive a very good fundamental education that can lead to a practical trade degree or provide a solid foundation for transfer to a four year university.  The classes are often much better than what the student could get at a higher priced university for a fraction of the cost in tuition.  The classes are smaller in size, usually under 40 students, and the cost is manageable.

Add to this a GI Bill, scholarships, loans, financial aid and a job and it's very possible to come out of college with a reasonable debt.  When I was finishing up my degree our household income was under $15k/year and we had a baby and a disabled Mother-In-Law to take care of.  They were lean years, but we managed to get by.  When I first got out of the Air Force and wanted to get into college, I stacked lumber full time until I got into school and then took a job at McDonalds.  I didn't like working there, but I needed the dough and the male dancing gig wasn't working out for me.

I have little sympathy for people who say that they can't afford it.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 14, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I have little sympathy for people who say that they can't afford it.



When did you graduate?  I graduated 11 years ago, in which time college tuition rates have doubled across the board.  It's becoming increasingly difficult to work your way through, even in state schools (not all).  While community colleges are great, very few offer 4 year degrees, and there are often difficulties transferring credits to a 4 year school, especially in major classes.


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## Steve (Dec 14, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> When did you graduate?  I graduated 11 years ago, in which time college tuition rates have doubled across the board.  It's becoming increasingly difficult to work your way through, even in state schools (not all).  While community colleges are great, very few offer 4 year degrees, and there are often difficulties transferring credits to a 4 year school, especially in major classes.


I think you misread what I wrote.  I didn't say that you can get a 4 year degree at a community college.  I said that you can get a great foundation to transfer.  And it's pretty clear up front which credits transfer and which don't.  If your intent is to transfer to a university, you can do so with relative ease provided you plan ahead and get good grades. And you can do it with a relatively low cost.

While costs have gone up, so has the average salary in both fast food and retail.  That McD's job I had paid me under $6/hour.  It now pays around $10/hr.  And they offer tuition assistance at many of the fast food joints now as a benefit.  

The post 9/11 GI bill is significantly better than what I had.  I got $325/month from the GI Bill under the old plan.  Nowadays, it pays stipends for housing, books and tuition.  If you want to go college, an honorable way to do so is to serve in the military.  And if you take advantage of the active duty service options while you're in, you'll come out ahead.  You could realistically serve 4 years, come out with marketable skills learned on the job, a two year degree and significant financial assistance through the GI Bill, not to mention any other scholarships or grants you might be eligible for.

I'm not saying college is cheap.  I'm saying that if you want to go to college, you CAN, if you're smart, hard working and willing to do what it takes.  You may come out with some debt.  You will likely have to sacrifice some things... like sleep.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2010)

We have plenty of colleges and there's no tuition fee for them. There's no problem getting courses on them.
It's the universities that charge tuition fees. These are for degree courses as well as for medical doctors, vetinary surgeons, dentists, scientist's degrees etc. Students do work to get themselves through uni but the cost of tuition plus living expenses can be crippling.
Mcdonalds here pays minimum wage which for under 21s is £3.64 with only free food as a 'benefit'. Cities with large student populations have more applicants for jobs than there are jobs, plus the jobs there are go to locals. In cities like Middlesborough there are very few jobs for anyone since the mining, steel and chemical industries closed down.
Most universities suggest a limit of 15 hours work for students, many tell them not to rely on work to get them through uni.
this is the advice of one university in London.

_"Finding a job once you are in London can be quite difficult and you should not rely on finding a job to fund your studies here. The university does have a limited amount of jobs available through the Student Union and you should contact them directly to find out if anything is available."_

The general unemployment rate is high here so students looking for part time work are competing with people who are unemployed, the preference will nearly always be given to the unemployed local. It's not easy these days for anyone to get a job.


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