# Traditional Bajiquan martial art



## beginerboy1 (May 5, 2017)

Hi everyone, I  have been looking further into the Chinese Martial arts recently and come across Bajiquan. I  understand it was used by bodyguards and seems to be at short range. Are there any traditional Bajiquan schools in the uk? it will be interesting to get everyones views. cheers.


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## Xue Sheng (May 5, 2017)

Bajiquan is a great art, finding a good school is not easy


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## Pepsiman (May 5, 2017)

As someone who looked into wanting to learn some Bajiquan, I hope you yourself find a great school! Also, good luck finding any good text/video material that's in English; I could personally only find material that was in Chinese, which didn't help considering I'm not the most fluent man in the world.

But yeah, Baji is such an awesome-looking art. I really love the emphasis on overwhelming someone's centerline with explosive power. Something so raw and pure about it.


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## macher (May 21, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Bajiquan is a great art, finding a good school is not easy



There’s a school in Philadelphia that teaches it. Not sure if it’s a good school or not?

Kung Fu 功夫 – Wu Tang Dao


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## Xue Sheng (May 21, 2018)

macher said:


> There’s a school in Philadelphia that teaches it. Not sure if it’s a good school or not?
> 
> Kung Fu 功夫 – Wu Tang Dao



I'm sorry, I don't know the school or the teacher, maybe there is someone on MT that does. I know there us to be, but I also know he left. 

If you are interested, check out the school


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2018)

macher said:


> There’s a school in Philadelphia that teaches it. Not sure if it’s a good school or not?
> 
> Kung Fu 功夫 – Wu Tang Dao


If it's from Wu Tang, it came from the Baji master Liu Yun Chao. It should be a good school.


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## macher (May 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If it's from Wu Tang, it came from the Baji master Liu Yun Chao. It should be a good school.



Thanks. How would I find out if it’s Wu Tang?


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## Xue Sheng (May 23, 2018)

macher said:


> Thanks. How would I find out if it’s Wu Tang?



Lineage of the instructor


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## macher (May 23, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Lineage of the instructor



He is Wu Tang and learned in Taiwan. However he said he how he teaches it you first have to go through training before he even starts teaching you Baji. I didn’t ask what the training before was. All he said it’s a particular style and you can’t just jump into it. I didn’t ask specifics.


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## Flying Crane (May 23, 2018)

macher said:


> He is Wu Tang and learned in Taiwan. However he said he how he teaches it you first have to go through training before he even starts teaching you Baji. I didn’t ask what the training before was. All he said it’s a particular style and you can’t just jump into it. I didn’t ask specifics.


I would be interested in hearing about the preliminary training, and the reasons for it.

I am skeptical of claims that you must first learn X system before you can learn Y system, unless the two systems were developed hand-in-hand and specifically designed to work together like this.  

It just seems to me that Y system ought to have its own methodology that can stand alone, otherwise maybe something is wrong with it.  Or else it really is simply a subset of X system.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 23, 2018)

macher said:


> Thanks. How would I find out if it’s Wu Tang?


The clip shows Kung Fu 功夫 – Wu Tang Dao


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## Flying Crane (May 23, 2018)

I seems to recall hearing that baji is often taught with piqua, but I do not know why.  Anyone here know if there is a special relationship between the two systems?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 23, 2018)

macher said:


> He is Wu Tang and learned in Taiwan. However he said he how he teaches it you first have to go through training before he even starts teaching you Baji. I didn’t ask what the training before was. All he said it’s a particular style and you can’t just jump into it. I didn’t ask specifics.


Most Wu Tang instructors use the long fist system as the foundation builder before starting Baji such as the linkage that came from Adam Hsu.


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## Flying Crane (May 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most Wu Tang instructors use the long fist system as the foundation builder before starting Baji such as the linkage that came from Adam Hsu.


Do you know the reason why?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 23, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Do you know the reason why?


All northern CMA system like to use the long fist system as the foundation builder. Adam Hsu started his long first training from GM Han Ching-Tan long before he cross trained the Baji system from GM Liu Yun-Chao.



Flying Crane said:


> I seems to recall hearing that baji is often taught with piqua, but I do not know why.  Anyone here know if there is a special relationship between the two systems?


Baji is hard and needs Piqua to soft it a little bit.


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## Flying Crane (May 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All northern CMA system like to use the long fist system as the foundation builder. Adam Hsu started his long first training from GM Han Ching-Tan long before he cross trained the Baji system from GM Liu Yun-Chao.
> 
> 
> Baji is hard and needs Piqua to soft it a little bit.


Ok they use it as a form ndation buider, but why?  What is lacking in baji to require that?

And what is lacking in baji tonrequire piqua as a softener?  If the system was developed and built on its own, why can it not stand alone?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 23, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok they use it as a form ndation buider, but why?  What is lacking in baji to require that?
> 
> And what is lacking in baji tonrequire piqua as a softener?  If the system was developed and built on its own, why can it not stand alone?


I don't believe all Baji instructors use long fist system as foundation builder. Adam Hsu believes that long fist system is the mother of all northern CMA systems.

The Baji system use "compress to the maximum and then release to the maximum" power generation method. In sparring, most of the time after your compression, when you try to release, your opponent is outside of your striking range. So you have a lot of compress, but you don't have enough release.

Old saying said, "When you train Baji, before you can use it to kill your enemy, you may have used it you kill yourself already." Some Baji guys have paid too much attention on the power generation and not paying enough attention on their own health.


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## Xue Sheng (May 23, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok they use it as a form ndation buider, but why?  What is lacking in baji to require that?
> 
> And what is lacking in baji tonrequire piqua as a softener?  If the system was developed and built on its own, why can it not stand alone?



A lot of these traditional Baji guys are serious as a heart attack when it comes to Baji and teaching it to someone, it is pretty easy to hurt someone with Baji. And trained properly, it is taxing. So, if it is required,  long fist could be for building strengthen to train Baji properly or to see how serious you are about learning Baji by making you take something else first.

I know of a guy in Boston who will teach you Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and a few other styles if you want, but he will not teach anyone Baji, at least not publically. And he learned Baji from  chiang kai shek's lead body


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## DanT (May 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All northern CMA system like to use the long fist system as the foundation builder. Adam Hsu started his long first training from GM Han Ching-Tan long before he cross trained the Baji system from GM Liu Yun-Chao.
> 
> 
> Baji is hard and needs Piqua to soft it a little bit.


I agree, Longfist is the foundation of most Northern Systems. It is a simple, hard style that most can pick up pretty easily and can be applied into combat easily.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 24, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I would be interested in hearing about the preliminary training, and the reasons for it.
> 
> I am skeptical of claims that you must first learn X system before you can learn Y system, unless the two systems were developed hand-in-hand and specifically designed to work together like this.
> 
> It just seems to me that Y system ought to have its own methodology that can stand alone, otherwise maybe something is wrong with it.  Or else it really is simply a subset of X system.


One of my sensei's trained in Fu Jow Pai. I learned two of the forms from either fu jow pai or hung gar (can't recall which, although can still perform the forms) from him, as a way for my movements not to be so 'hard', but didn't actually learn either system. I would ask him questions, and he explained to me that system works the same way you described/are doubtful of...you have to learn hung gar before you learn fu jow pai. According to him, fu jow pai was based around hung gar and focused on one specific aspect, so you had to learn the system as a whole before specializing. It wasn't that they were developed hand in hand, but rather that learning the second system would be incomplete without first learning the first system. Makes sense to me.


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## Flying Crane (May 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> One of my sensei's trained in Fu Jow Pai. I learned two of the forms from either fu jow pai or hung gar (can't recall which, although can still perform the forms) from him, as a way for my movements not to be so 'hard', but didn't actually learn either system. I would ask him questions, and he explained to me that system works the same way you described/are doubtful of...you have to learn hung gar before you learn fu jow pai. According to him, fu jow pai was based around hung gar and focused on one specific aspect, so you had to learn the system as a whole before specializing. It wasn't that they were developed hand in hand, but rather that learning the second system would be incomplete without first learning the first system. Makes sense to me.


If the one system was specifically developed to rely on the other, then that makes sense.

If it was developed independently, then it would not make sense.


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## macher (May 24, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> If the one system was specifically developed to rely on the other, then that makes sense.
> 
> If it was developed independently, then it would not make sense.



I read somewhere that one of the Baji masters was sent to a friend of his Grandmaster who was a a Taiji master to help develop softness.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 24, 2018)

macher said:


> I read somewhere that one of the Baji masters was sent to a friend of his Grandmaster who was a a Taiji master to help develop softness.


But that's different then a blanket statement of "you must learn this before I teach you"


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## macher (May 25, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> But that's different then a blanket statement of "you must learn this before I teach you"



Let me clarify and I’m not sure I mentioned it. The Sifu said he won’t teach Baji to someone who has never practiced CMA unless they go through some training. He mentioned Baji isn’t a MA that you can jump into without any other previous  practice.


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## Flying Crane (May 25, 2018)

macher said:


> Let me clarify and I’m not sure I mentioned it. The Sifu said he won’t teach Baji to someone who has never practiced CMA unless they go through some training. He mentioned Baji isn’t a MA that you can jump into without any other previous  practice.


And that is what I am trying to understand.  Why must a different style be taught as a prerequisite?  And how much training in a different style is required?


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## macher (Jun 2, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> And that is what I am trying to understand.  Why must a different style be taught as a prerequisite?  And how much training in a different style is required?



Update this is what I found out about the ‘training’ before learning Bajiquan. It was developed by Grand Master Liu Yun-Qiao in the 70’s. It’s a traditional way of following the curriculum and training. I actually was talking to another Bajiquan teacher from a school that’s too far from me but he told me that the teacher  at the school I was posting about trainer under his Sifu. He the school is definitely teaching traditional. 

‘You start with the Long Fist and Northern Mantis system to help build up and open up the body structure. Then get into Taichi system to train synchronicity, then when the body is ready you get into Bajiquan, Bagua and Pigua systems.’


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 2, 2018)

macher said:


> ‘You start with the Long Fist and Northern Mantis system to help build up and open up the body structure. Then get into Taichi system to train synchronicity, then when the body is ready you get ...’


This approach make sense. You can use

1. Foundation training - long fist to build up foundation.
2. Speed and application training - preying mantis to understand the application (long fist can be too abstract).
3. Slow body coordination training - Taiji to develop body unification and enhance outside 3 harmony (hand and foot, elbow and knee, shoulder and hip).

You then start your Baji power generation training after that.


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## VPT (Jun 12, 2018)

Lü Baochun has some students in UK, I believe. And as a matter of fact, I think he teaches Baji right away and only then other stuff like Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji.


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## macher (Jun 12, 2018)

VPT said:


> Lü Baochun has some students in UK, I believe. And as a matter of fact, I think he teaches Baji right away and only then other stuff like Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji.



The Sifu I talked to who told me the curriculum responded to me...

“However, as much as I agree with the solid curriculum Grand Master Liu Yun-Qiao had designed back in the 70s, I personally find it a bit too time consuming for today’s world, it would take at least five to ten years before you are “ready”. I’ve reorganized our systems a bit and came up with a more Bajiquan focused curriculum while making sure students don’t get hurt... However there are flaws that comes with my “shortened” curriculums of course.”


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## Flying Crane (Jun 12, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This approach make sense. You can use
> 
> 1. Foundation training - long fist to build up foundation.
> 2. Speed and application training - preying mantis to understand the application (long fist can be too abstract).
> ...


In my opinion it does not make sense if those systems are truly separate systems.  Otherwise they are simply subsets of each other.  In essence, when described like this the preying mantis, the taiji, and the baji are all subsets of longfist.  Perhaps they are advanced aspects of longfist.

But I know that is not actually true.

I dunno, it just does not make sense to me.  The system i train has its own method of developing basics and speed and power and rooting and application.  If the system is trained properly then you get all of those things.  It does not make sense to me to need to train one system before you can train a different system, if they are actually separate systems.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 12, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> In my opinion it does not make sense if those systems are truly separate systems.  Otherwise they are simply subsets of each other.  In essence, when described like this the preying mantis, the taiji, and the baji are all subsets of longfist.  Perhaps they are advanced aspects of longfist.


All the northern CMA have strong influence from the long fist system. People even call long fist as the mother of all northern CMA systems. The long fist system is like the bronze level ball room dancing. It teaches you the basic fox step, box step, cha cha step, ... If you have a solid training of the 8 basic long fist stances and also the smooth transition among them, it will be very easy for you to learn any MA system after that.

For example, with long fist foundation, I have learned the 108 moves long Taiji form within 1 and 1/2 hour that most people may take at least 10 hours to learn it. All I need to remember is what stance that each move in the 108 moves. How to transfer from one stance into another stance has already been part of my body nature response.

All long fist guys will know that the long fist system is only the beginning. If you want to work on

- speed, you will cross train preying mantis, Zimen, Pi Gua.
- power, you will cross train Baji, XingYi Liu He, Chen Taiji.
- throw, you will cross train Chinese wrestling.

My long fist brothers all started from long fist and end with something else.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 12, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All the northern CMA have strong influence from the long fist system. People even call long fist as the mother of all northern CMA systems. The long fist system is like the bronze level ball room dancing. It teaches you the basic fox step, box step, cha cha step, ... If you have a solid training of the 8 basic long fist stances and also the smooth transition among them, it will be very easy for you to learn any MA system after that.
> 
> For example, with long fist foundation, I have learned the 108 moves long Taiji form within 1 and 1/2 hour that most people may take at least 10 hours to learn it. All I need to remember is what stance that each move in the 108 moves. How to transfer from one stance into another stance has already been part of my body nature response.
> 
> ...


To develop in white crane, I train in white crane.  Maybe white crane is different.  I dunno.  It’s from Tibet. 

If the people who developed these other systems, mantis, baji, etc. had trained in long fist before they developed these other systems, and essentially developed them with the long fist foundation in mind, then I see the connection.

If not, then it seems to me that people do not understand how to teach their own system.


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## punisher73 (Jun 29, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> And that is what I am trying to understand.  Why must a different style be taught as a prerequisite?  And how much training in a different style is required?



I think sometimes, culturally, it comes down to learning an "open system" and learning to trust the student before showing him a more closed door system.  I known that some styles even teach "pubic" forms and then for the closed door students teach the same forms with slightly different angles etc. that make it effective.

Not sure if that is the case with this or just an instructor preference.


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## punisher73 (Jun 29, 2018)

Episode of Kung Fu Quest that discusses Baiji.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 29, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> I think sometimes, culturally, it comes down to learning an "open system" and learning to trust the student before showing him a more closed door system.  I known that some styles even teach "pubic" forms and then for the closed door students teach the same forms with slightly different angles etc. that make it effective.
> 
> Not sure if that is the case with this or just an instructor preference.


I’d be interested in learning one of the pubic forms...


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## ArcticSin (Jul 17, 2019)

Edit: I didn't realize this post was a year old lol

 I am a student of the Wu Tang Philadelphia branch. Our teacher does teach baji as soon as day 1, just not Xiao, da or Lian
Huan Quan forms. It takes a couple years  to get to that. We learn baji early on in the form of structural training and a simple military baji form called Zhong Yi Quan. Bajiquan is the basis for all of our training, even if we learn long fist, Mantis, bagua and other stuff to fill in the gaps between the serious baji training. You should come down and visit and ask, we have classes Mondays and Thursdays!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 17, 2019)

ArcticSin said:


> Edit: I didn't realize this post was a year old lol
> 
> I am a student of the Wu Tang Philadelphia branch. Our teacher does teach baji as soon as day 1, just not Xiao, da or Lian
> Huan Quan forms. It takes a couple years  to get to that. We learn baji early on in the form of structural training and a simple military baji form called Zhong Yi Quan. Bajiquan is the basis for all of our training, even if we learn long fist, Mantis, bagua and other stuff to fill in the gaps between the serious baji training. You should come down and visit and ask, we have classes Mondays and Thursdays!


You're not the first person to revive this (or any other) thread here.

Welcome to MartialTalk! Drop in over at the Beginner's Corner and give us the lowdown on your shady (or boring, whichever the case may be) background.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 17, 2019)

I have just talked to a Baji instructor last night. He told me that the basic Baji training require a student to hold 8 inhales and 8 exhales in each and every move of the little Baji form for 3 months. Since 99% of the students won't be able to pass that requirement test, teacher doesn't want to waste his teaching time, the long fist training is used to remove the unpatient students before the serious Baiji training will start.


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## JibPower (Feb 11, 2020)

Hey there,
I'm new on this forum (introduced myself in the Beginner's Corner), I'm reactivating this thread 
Just wanted to let you know about 2 new places where you can learn Baji Quan in Canada.
TORONTO
Every Friday from 7PM to 9PM (with Shifu Ip)
300 Silver Star Blvd, Toronto, ON
M1V 0G2
(Basement dance room)
GREATER MONTREAL AREA
Every Sunday from 10AM to 12PM (with Shihing JB)
292 Chemin de Saint-Jean,
La Prairie, QC J5R 2K3
(in the Gladiateur Gym on the second floor)

Our website is still under development, but you can take a look here: https://wuzhongbaji.wixsite.com/bajiquancanada

And see our Facebook Page here: Baji Quan Canada

I can possibly answer some questions about the style also if you have some ;-)
Peace
JibPower


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## Randy Pio (Feb 13, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> One of my sensei's trained in Fu Jow Pai. I learned two of the forms from either fu jow pai or hung gar (can't recall which, although can still perform the forms) from him, as a way for my movements not to be so 'hard', but didn't actually learn either system. I would ask him questions, and he explained to me that system works the same way you described/are doubtful of...you have to learn hung gar before you learn fu jow pai. According to him, fu jow pai was based around hung gar and focused on one specific aspect, so you had to learn the system as a whole before specializing. It wasn't that they were developed hand in hand, but rather that learning the second system would be incomplete without first learning the first system. Makes sense to me.




Were you part of the Tak Wah Eng Federation?


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> He told me that the basic Baji training require a student to hold 8 inhales and 8 exhales in each and every move of the little Baji form for 3 months.




How do you 'hold in' inhales and exhales? If you hold them in you aren't doing them!! Does it mean you have to hold your breath for a certain amount of time? If so, why?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 13, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> How do you 'hold in' inhales and exhales? If you hold them in you aren't doing them!! Does it mean you have to hold your breath for a certain amount of time? If so, why?


Not hold on the breath, but hold on the posture for 8 inhales and 8 exhales. The breathing is still in the normal speed. The Gong Li system uses this method too.


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not hold on the breath, but hold on the posture for 8 inhales and 8 exhales. The breathing is still in the normal speed. The Gong Li system uses this method too.




Ah that makes more sense. Thank you.


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## GodSpearCQB (Mar 17, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> In my opinion it does not make sense if those systems are truly separate systems.  Otherwise they are simply subsets of each other.  In essence, when described like this the preying mantis, the taiji, and the baji are all subsets of longfist.  Perhaps they are advanced aspects of longfist.
> 
> But I know that is not actually true.
> 
> I dunno, it just does not make sense to me.  The system i train has its own method of developing basics and speed and power and rooting and application.  If the system is trained properly then you get all of those things.  It does not make sense to me to need to train one system before you can train a different system, if they are actually separate systems.


The interpretation of  Grandmasters Liu's curriculum as needing to be learned in specific order has been translated as the only solid path by many of my colleagues. This however,   does not make it a correct interpretation. There are others, including one from Liu himself. My Master, has said repeatedly that the reason these arts exist in our system is not to force one to learn them all, but rather to use the arts as hones to sharpen the different warriors needs. A true trainer of warriors talents lies in ascertaining the weakness and strengths of the candidate, and also the purpose of the candidate. I shall unpack this idea. This will perhaps illuminate the genius of GM Liu, and the subsequent high level of understanding his predecessors must attain to  disseminate at the same level or preferably even higher. After all if the art does not EVOLVE it DEVOLVES there is no static in such things nothing is ever exactly the same as some purists would have you believe. First off, Liu had a sang that rings true and could even be extended,  "All Northern Chinese Martial Arts are children of the same mother" and by extension, being of fighting Norman descent  I would argue, All human combatives are descendant of the same father/ mother, but that assertion is a topic for another time.  Liu was the product of many fathers of battle, most notably GGM LI, GGM GONG  GGM DING, and General Zhang. each of these men specialized in teaching warriors. Liu used the subsequent arts mentioned above to fit the individuals needs. These arts are tools to hone the warrior not at all an absolute curriculum. If one were to learn all the arts and all the material  taught under the system, (which not all were ever taught by Liu, I.E. the 6 substyles of Mantis disseminated by Su Y Chang, yet included in the curriculum) one would not have time to make war or to protect dignitaries, one would only be a scholar, an academic, and unless extremely talented likely not good at any of them. On the contrary, when teaching operators you must fashion a cure for weakness and an augmentation for strength from these wonderful styles. I for one came out of a northern longfist and Hung Fut background, and began Northern Mantis and Baji Quan immediately. My master having been very close to Liu for 8 years straight 7 days a week arriving at wake up and making him his last tea for bed learned the value of diagnosing a warriors needs. He subsequently honed me according to this amazing talent. Instead of going through Ba Bu Mantis first, which was standard, I was thrust into seven star and closed door mantis,  three days a week, baji/pigua three days a week and spear and sword one day a week (Direct instruction). The mantis was to capitalize on my speed and small frame and ruthlessness, and the Baji was used to put a period at the end of my sentences. After several years it shifted to Mei Hua for fluidity and Bagua for mobility and accuracy. I learned Ba Bu and other mantis quite easily along the way having already conquered seven star. Being a Lifer,  I had Time to dabble in Tai Ji especially Chens along the way, but my next prescription by my master was Liu He Mantis. This art he felt would place the finishing touches on my natural ability, and he rarely ever taught it because most could not make it work  as a combative art due to its nature.   It just so happened to fit my movements and became a capstone for me as an individual although there never really is a capstone.  Now I have trained several disciples, and many professionals both LEO and MIL, they do not have the luxury of the life described above or the one my master or GM Liu lived. Therefore, I assess their knowledge through rapport building and providing basic movement training, within a short time I begin individual prescription of training. Using as little of each art as possible, I tailor the training using basics from any of the Wutang arts that I feel represent the best exercise for the needs of the student based on Lethal, Non lethal subduing or protecting,  or health needs honed to the amount of intelligence, ability, or time  the student presents as a canvas, or a work of art that simply needs tweaked. I hope this dissertation helps explain the actual intention of GM Liu's curriculum instead of being a pigeon holed purist perspective which would produce nothing but a vast wasteland of dancers, not combatants, it was a vast library of tools to sharpen a myriad of warriors with a myriad of intentions A true display of the genius of the Chinese aristocratic and educated mind.


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## geezer (Mar 17, 2021)

GodSpearCQB said:


> The interpretation of  Grandmasters Liu's curriculum....



Sorry, I found this lengthy post a little confusing appearing without context. I see you are new to Martialtalk. Welcome! To start, perhaps you could give us a little background? For example, in the post above, are you talking about Grandmaster _Liu Yun Qiao? _


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## GodSpearCQB (Mar 17, 2021)

geezer said:


> Sorry, I found this lengthy post a little confusing appearing without context. I see you are new to Martialtalk. Welcome! To start, perhaps you could give us a little background? For example, in the post above, are you talking about Grandmaster _Liu Yun Qiao? _


Not a problem, I was reading the above continuing conversation in this thread that was referencing a codified entry into Baji under our lineage that required a step by step or progressive approach. Yes my Lineage is Grandmaster Liu Yun Qiao. I was describing how the myriad of styles in Wu Tang are used to help an individuals performance not as a rule book, rather as a sharpening stone. Thanks for the welcome, I stay away from most social media and prefer to post proofs, but I found this forum the other day and found it mentally stimulating.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2021)

GodSpearCQB said:


> Yes my Lineage is Grandmaster Liu Yun Qiao.


I have read a book that Adam Hsu published few years ago. It was a collection of letters between GM Liu Yun Qiao and Adam Hsu while Adam was teaching in US.

In that book, it states that in Wu Tang, you may learn Baji, long fist, praying mantis, ..., but after you have left Wu Tang, you are allowed to teach your students long fist, praying mantis, but not allowed to teach your students Baji.

In that book, it clearly stated:

Liu Yun Qiao: Are you teaching Baji in US?
Adam Hsu: I'm teaching long fist, praying mantis right now. I'm not teaching Baji in US.

IMO, Wu Tang has very closed mind. How can one promote Baji through the world with this kind of conservative attitude.

The more that I read about that book, the more that I feel sad about the CMA future.

Many years ago, one of my long fist brothers went to Wu Tang and watched the class. He stole the little Baji form by watching (I can steal a form by watching too). He then taught to a group of old people in the park as exercise for health. His action made Wu Tang people mad big time.

The way that my long fist brother think was, "If Wu Tang treats Baji as secret. I will steal Wu Tang's secret, and spread around as old people's exercise." I love my long fist brother's action.


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## GodSpearCQB (Mar 17, 2021)

This rule remained in effect until the death of GM Liu. Regardless My Master followed Lil for 8 years 7 days a week with only one profession, teaching martial arts for Liu assisting with secret service, and Taiwan special operations. Indeed my generation (age group) 50 + was the first of westerners to learn Baji that were not R.O.C.


Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have read a book that Adam Hsu published few years ago. It was a collection of letters between GM Liu Yun Qiao and Adam Hsu while Adam was teaching in US.
> 
> In that book, it stated that in Wu Tang, you may learn Baji, long fist, praying mantis, ..., but after you have left Wu Tang, you are allowed to teach your students long fist, praying mantis, but not allowed to teach your students Baji.
> 
> ...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2021)

GodSpearCQB said:


> This rule remained in effect until the death of GM Liu.


Thanks for confirm the fact. It just make no sense to me.

GM Liu can teach Baji to his students. But as long as Liu is still alive, none of his students is allowed to teach Baji to their students.

What will happen if GM Liu outlive all his students (of course this is impossible)? Will Baji die during his generation?


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## GodSpearCQB (Mar 17, 2021)

Well I think the animus was direct toward the CCP. the vetting of his disciples as well as Su's, Dai's  and my masters was rigorous both in Taiwan, Venezuela, and here in the states. Make no mistake Baji did get disseminated but only to individuals that were closed door disciples. Adam Hsu was not a fan of closed door disciples and only took them at one large ceremony after Liu stopped receiving them to get them into the system. In the door is in the door regardless of what country you are in.
On the mainland the only remaining Baji was from Li Shu Wens early teaching years which was very different then the way he taught GM Liu. Much more rigid and not as fluid or as fast. It is said that Li could hit five strikes before setting his foot down from one movement when he was teaching Liu in his later years.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2021)

GodSpearCQB said:


> Adam Hsu was not a fan of closed door disciples and only took them at one large ceremony after Liu stopped receiving them to get them into the system.


It's not my business. But since I was there during the right place and at the right time, I have to speak on this.

When Liu was in Beijing (during the 1st 济南 Ji Nan Traditional CMA tournament), I went to the hotel to meet Liu. Adam, Su, and many other Liu's students was there. I clearly remembered what Liu said to all his students, "After I have passed away, Wu Tang will be under Adam's charge."


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## GodSpearCQB (Mar 17, 2021)

I am not sure what happened in Taiwan after they all left for USA, I do know know that Johnson Lin is current chairman.  I have heard that the group of upper students went their separate ways and  other than reunions run separately. It always seems to happen in great organizations once the Head is lost. I do know many of them did not want the job of trying to keep it all together after a time. Thus we are all on friendly terms more or less, but have totally different branches all dedicated to the memory of GM Liu but only loyal to our individual sub divisions. My Master was given permission by GM Liu to start Wu tang center of Martial Arts Ohio back in 1980. I have seen this occur in other styles as well, when the boss dies the students all split.   It is sad, but I guess the old adage too many cooks in the kitchen applies. Thank you sharing  such a treasured experience. It must have been something to be in such a wonderful place at a wonderful time


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## BrendanF (Mar 20, 2021)

GodSpearCQB said:


> Thank you sharing  such a treasured experience. It must have been something to be in such a wonderful place at a wonderful time



Wang laoshi was a disciple of Chang Dong Sheng; I daresay he could (should?) write a book on this and similar times.


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## GodSpearCQB (Mar 20, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> Wang laoshi was a disciple of Chang Dong Sheng; I daresay he could (should?) write a book on this and similar times.


I would be in line to read. Thanks for the heads up and I am honored to have corresponded with him.


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