# What is it with you people and "formal instruction"?



## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

I hate to sound so condescending, but it seems to me that those with "formal instruction" do not hesitate to condescend those without it.  You are not automatically more knowledgable, more skilled, or more fit to teach others than me just because you learned from someone else. Get over it.


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## Blindside (Jun 15, 2005)

> I hate to sound so condescending, but it seems to me that those with "formal instruction" do not hesitate to condescend those without it. You are not automatically more knowledgable, more skilled, or more fit to teach others than me just because you learned from someone else. Get over it.



Care to give us your background in swordsmanship so we can get an idea of your knowledge, skill, or fitness to teach?  

Lamont


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## arnisador (Jun 15, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> I hate to sound so condescending, but it seems to me that those with "formal instruction" do not hesitate to condescend those without it. You are not automatically more knowledgable, more skilled, or more fit to teach others than me just because you learned from someone else.


 Well, you might be more knowledgeable--after all, knowledge is created or transmitted, but you can only generate so much in one lifetime (hence the value of training).

 But yes, you might be a great untrained fighter. There's one in every bar. It's just much less likely--including that it would be hard for you to know how good you are if you aren't at a school where you can test yourself against many opponents.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

Well, I would like to say that I certainly do not hold myself in the highest regard as a swordsman and have no intention of claiming to be better than anyone.
   As far as my background, I am a self taught (though that sounds a bit stupid when phrased as such) swordsman of about three years of experience.  I would certainly not consider myself worthy of teaching my style to anyone for a minimum of another five years or so,if at all, and not until after I have been able to compare my technique to conventional ones that have been passed down for generations.
   As far as I'm concerned, however, these issues are not the point.  I merely wish to point out that a self educated martialist/artist CAN be just as good in these points(fitness to teach and such) as one who has a master or is educated somehow, as many believe that formal instruction is the ONLY way to become skilled with with a sword and not kill yourself in the process or be turned into an example in some way of why one should have learned from an expert.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

Oh yea, and thanks for being open-minded.  I appreciate it.  Please note too that I mean no disrespect towards those who are taught their art. I hold such students of their craft in the highest of regard, generally.  I'm merely frustrated at the generalization I see all too often coming from such pupils.


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## Blindside (Jun 15, 2005)

Ok, then please cite an example of where a self-taught swordsman has excelled in his chosen field.  (Don't use Musashi, see the other thread for the reasons why.)  As an example, any fencer who has medaled in the Olympics who didn't have a classical fencing coach.

Actually, name five and we may have a good discussion. 

Lamont


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## BlackCatBonz (Jun 15, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> Well, I would like to say that I certainly do not hold myself in the highest regard as a swordsman and have no intention of claiming to be better than anyone.
> 
> *1.As far as my background, I am a self taught (though that sounds a bit stupid when phrased as such) swordsman of about three years of experience. I would certainly not consider myself worthy of teaching my style to anyone for a minimum of another five years or so,if at all, and not until after I have been able to compare my technique to conventional ones that have been passed down for generations.*
> As far as I'm concerned, however, these issues are not the point.
> ...


1. one can only learn so much "technique" and "practical" application without a teacher or "master"
heck.....ive had friends that thought they learned martial arts out of karate and ninja mags for years, and when they finally had the "stuff" shown to them for real.....they found out they didnt know squat.
many systems that have been passed down for generations have a reason behind their longevity.........they worked. flinging around a bladed weapon for 5 years will give you no discernable skill from that of a beginner. your grip would be wrong, your ability to maneuver and your sense of timing and distance would be minimal at best. thats not to say there arent gifted natural tacticians out there......but they're rare. who are you going to compare your technique with? a master? or another beginning student?

2.a self educated martial artist might become good.......but again, without instruction....how will you know? people learn from experts for a reason......they're experts!
i just hope we dont read about the guy that threw his sword in the air and had it come down and slice his neck open.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

1:  I admit I actually can site no evidence of self taught martialists who excelled at their art and were of public interest.  I hope, if possible, to one day become an example.
 2:  I would also like to like to compete in some way against students of swordsmanship of many different styles and many different skill levels.  What could be more effective than trying against everyone?
 3:  I also would hope not to hear about the guy who threw his sword in the air and sliced his neck open, though I'm hoping that a person trying to teaching themself would attempt to do so with a bit more common sense than that.  Perhaps not all experts have the sense not to throw their swords in the air, but luckily, I do.
 4: Just for the sake of wondering, has anyone tried to compete using their form of swordsmanship against someone elses? I mean, if you're an expert, then you should have no problem whatsoever in combat against an opponent working on totally different set of guidelines for combat than yourself.  While "experts" of swordsmanship today may indeed have a thorough understanding of their own chosen weapon, how will they fare against an opposing weapon or style? 
   By the same token that you may consider me an amateur for not learning from an expert, I may consider you an amateur for not learning for yourself.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

One other thing.  If someone can tell me how much Musashi learned from his father, and how skilled his father was with a sword, then I may abandon the argument that he was an example of a self taught swordsman of great skill.  But if all you have to offer is that he was taught the "basics" by his father, then i could quite easily reply that you could learn the basics by fighting a friend with a stick in your back yard for a half an hour.


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## Tgace (Jun 15, 2005)

Im a self taught brain surgeon with a sub specialty in OBGYN....


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## Blindside (Jun 15, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> But if all you have to offer is that he was taught the "basics" by his father, then i could quite easily reply that you could learn the basics by fighting a friend with a stick in your back yard for a half an hour.




And you would be wrong....

Lamont


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

here we go again.....I'm the best artist in the world! I made 5 billion dollars  from an old, dirty, wrinkled curtain presented as a piece of art.  And guess what!  No one ever taught me a thing about art.


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## Blindside (Jun 15, 2005)

I have no idea what you were referring to.

Define the basics of swordsmanship that can be taught in a half hour "by fighting a friend with a stick."

Lamont


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

Oi.... it seems the only possible way to get any believers would be to prove my point on a physical level.  I only wish I could right this very moment.  Sadly, or at least, sadly for me, I can't.  And I may never be able to.  I will try my best, however, regardless.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

If it makes it any easier, for you, BlindSide, One could give every able person in a crowded room a sword, and simply fight them to the death to learn the basics.  If one should say that this would not be a manner by which to learn the basics, then one has no concept of what the basics are.


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## Blindside (Jun 15, 2005)

Aw, give us a hint, what are your basics?

Stance, footwork, grip, posture, wards/gaurds, parries, blocks, combat structure, etc.

Lamont


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## Andrew Green (Jun 15, 2005)

With a ciritcal mind and good test subjects you can teach yourself to be quite good at a sport.

 Xtreme sports are a good example of this.  Kids with no coaches are doing some amazing things on skateboards, bikes, roller blades and surf boards all over the world.

 To get good at martial arts you need to spar, and spar lots, against lots of people. and not always against beginners.

 I do believe that people could reach a fairly high level in the martial arts through self-teaching IF:

 - There was a group of them training and improving together, helping each other along.

 - They approached it critically, actually thought hard about what they where doing and why.  Not just spar for 2 hours then go home.

 - They used other resources that are available.  Books, videos, instructional fight videos, etc.

 - Trained with other groups, even if it was only occasionally.  As much as competing once or twice a year, or occasionally getting together with other groups that are competitive and sparring,  Exchanging ideas, etc.

 With those things in place there are people that could get quite far on there own.  But having more then one generation of athletes is a plus. Each new generation learns from the previous and continues on that path.  Look at any new sport.  In the beginning it was self-trained people.  As they passed there peak they taught new people, giving the new group a head start.  That group was then able to get farther...


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## Andrew Green (Jun 15, 2005)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Define the basics of swordsmanship that can be taught in a half hour "by fighting a friend with a stick."


 A half hour of hard stick fighting will teach you more of relevant basics then a month of taught solo drills...

 Toss someone in that knows what they are doing to coach you and you've got a even better deal


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

Blindside, tell me, what are the basics of each individual sword art known to the world?


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## Blindside (Jun 15, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> A half hour of hard stick fighting will teach you more of relevant basics then a month of taught solo drills...
> 
> Toss someone in that knows what they are doing to coach you and you've got a even better deal



I agree with that.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

This argument seems to be getting quite off topic, doesn't it.....


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

One cannot achieve full combat potential unless they use a style created by and for themself. Using someone elses combat style is ludicrousy because it was originally meant to be used by its original creator who may have died thousands of years ago.
   Furthermore, the best way to learn in combat is through experience.  An instructor, of any level of ability, will not teach you as much as you could learn in actual combat.  One may ask how a person can safely and effectively reach a point where they are ready for actual combat, but one never is.  Those with innate talent go a long way and learn quickly, exposing themselves to opponents that use many different types of styles, so they become adaptable.  And then they feel the need to pass on what they've learned, even though they cannot accurately describe it or explain it themselves. That is the problem.
   On a side note, there have been many occasions in which well trained martial artists have been beaten by real-world and street wise fighters.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

SO HA! I hope.....


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

probably not


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## Shu2jack (Jun 15, 2005)

Out of curosity, why do you choose not to have formal instruction? It could cut the amount of time you need to "get good" by someone simply showing you how to hold your weapon, the most efficent way to strike, foot movents, etc. instead of trying to learn it while getting your butt kicked. (Or you could be kicking butt against nobodies, think your doing it right, then come to think your losses are due to the other guy just being really good instead of the fact that your technique is just sloppy. I have seen people try to unknowingly practice the wrong way harder in order to get better.)

Anyway, if you choose to forgo any formal instruction, more power to ya. I am just curious as to why you wouldn't want any.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 15, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> One cannot achieve full combat potential unless they use a style created by and for themself.


 Yup, which is what a good coach will help you do.  Saving you a lot of time and having a outside set of eyes to watch what you are doing.

 A training group without a coach can achieve this to some extent, and you can get quite good.  But not as good, and not as fast as if you had a good coach.


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## Blindside (Jun 15, 2005)

Steve,

I don't have anything personal against you or what you are doing, I just don't believe in it.  I used to do the LARP thing in college, swinging around boffer swords, polearms, and the like.  I spent 5 years at it meeting weekly.  I was good at it, I won alot of fights, cripes, 12 years after leaving I still have a rep in that group.  At that time the group had been going for 10+ years, with a solid group of guys that liked to fight.  Self-taught swordsmen, sound familiar?  We had fencers and kendo guys drop in and play with us, we learned from them, and made up our own stuff.  I did learn valuable material, timing, zoning, and re-inventing defanging the snake, though we didnt call it that.

Eventually I left and got into martial arts, and I ran into some serious players there.  I sparred fencers, escrimadors, and batto/kenjutsu players, and a theme emerged, against most well-trained guys, I fared poorly.  Mind you, these were well trained guys who sparred regularly, a lot of iaido folks I ran into knew how to grasp a sword, but not much else.  

Ive had two years of escrima/kali instruction, seminars with top-rep Japanese, Filipino, and European swordsmen, and I do regular hard-contact stickfighting.  I consider myself a novice with a sword in my hand.

Ive been in your shoes, I understand your perspective, I just dont agree with it.

Lamont


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## Ceicei (Jun 15, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve,

 Do you have a videoclip of yourself using the sword?  I think many of us would be interested.

  - Ceicei


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## Flatlander (Jun 15, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> If it makes it any easier, for you, BlindSide, One could give every able person in a crowded room a sword, and simply fight them to the death to learn the basics. If one should say that this would not be a manner by which to learn the basics, then one has no concept of what the basics are.


Were one to undertake this method of experiential learning, one would realize a significant likelihood of dying or becoming critically injured, as would the others in the room.  

 So, to repeat the question upthread, why have you chosen to go the route of self-study?


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## bignick (Jun 15, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> By the same token that you may consider me an amateur for not learning from an expert, I may consider you an amateur for not learning for yourself.


 No, I'd consider you an amature because the short length of your training and apparent refusal to accept help from those that have studied your area of interest for decades.


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## pesilat (Jun 15, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> I hate to sound so condescending, but it seems to me that those with "formal instruction" do not hesitate to condescend those without it.  You are not automatically more knowledgable, more skilled, or more fit to teach others than me just because you learned from someone else. Get over it.



I'm going to touch on some stuff others have mentioned but here's my take.

As has been pointed out, there's only so much one person can develop. By training in an established system you have someone to guide you around potential pitfalls which can save you a lot of time in your development.

Martial arts should never be about learning to fight like someone else. An MA instructor is a guide but s/he can't walk the path for the student. The student has to find his/her own way through the journey. Everyone is self-taught. They have to be to get anywhere because no two people are exactly alike.

My instructor can tell me what works for him but that doesn't mean that it'll work for me. However, my instructor, with his background, experience, and what he's learned from his instructor and the system can look at me and how I move and say, "You know, this may work better for you than that."

Person A is self-taught and has been at it for 10 years. Person B has been training with an instructor for 10 years. What they train in is very similar - i.e.: they both specialize in grappling or sword or whatever. I can _guarantee_ that Person B will have a deeper understanding and a firmer grasp of the knowledge and will probably be able to take Person A in a fight - but maybe not. "On any given Sunday ..." But the odds will definitely be in his favor because while Person A spent time fumbling around trying to get over hurdles he encountered, Person B swept past those hurdles because his instructor was able to prepare him for them in advance or maybe even show him a path around those hurdles all together.

So while we each hike our own individual path, the hiker with a guide is likely to make more progress down his path in a shorter amount of time than the guy who goes it alone and has to trial-and-error his way through every mistake in the book.

Look at it like a road race through Manhattan. It's such a long race that no one can ever really finish. But there are checkpoints along the way. When the time is up, the guy who's hit the most checkpoints will "win" (even though, in MA, the time is up when you die and there is no "winning" because you're really just competing with yourself to see how far you can get before you die). Who do you think is going to hit the most checkpoints and get the farthest through the course? The guy who has a navigator with a map and compass or the guy who just has a car and gumption? My money'd be on the guy with the navigator.

Mike


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## Han-Mi (Jun 15, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> As far as I'm concerned, however, these issues are not the point. I merely wish to point out that a self educated martialist/artist CAN be just as good in these points(fitness to teach and such) as one who has a master or is educated somehow, as many believe that formal instruction is the ONLY way to become skilled with with a sword and not kill yourself in the process or be turned into an example in some way of why one should have learned from an expert.


 
Sure, and I could jump out of a plane without a paracute and not die. It just isn't likely.  Anything is possible, I think that it is definately in question more because there is no way to confirm the training. anyway, not saying it isn't possible, just that fewer self taught anythings are good than are bad:uhyeah:


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## bignick (Jun 16, 2005)

Let me say that there is nothing wrong with being a self made man.  Some of the greatest people in the history of the world were self-educated and self-taught....

The difference is they were wise enough to learn from others when they had the oppurtunity...


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## Hyaku (Jun 16, 2005)

Well maybe I can answer a little with my connection with the ryu. 

taking into account nearly 400 years of study both Mushashi's waza and all he wrote in Japanese. The ryu's general opininion is, "There was no one before Musashi, thee will be no one after him. We 'as a group' can only stamp on the floor, sweat and study in the hope that we can get a step nearer to Musashi. 

His techniques were of his own making but he didnt actually "practice" on his own. Like we do today he went to a dojo worked and taught others based on the skills he had aquired form his father and others. but most of all its philosophy that counts in the application of these techniques. he tells us what he did but does not suggest we should try to teach ourselves. for that we would like him need a very strong foundation of weapon and unarmed arts to begin with. 

The ryu like anyone else works as a group. You cant do his waza on your own. You need a partner preferabley one of more experience. After practice I go home and in my own dojo work with a mirror and a lot of creative visualization then go back again to group practice or in my case mostly to a  man to man practice with the present Soke. 

Like it or not thats the way it is. I cant see Nippon Budokan would be asking a self taught swordsman to perform a demonstration. More like call for men in white coats would be in order.

Musashi is about "Feelings". What you feel from an opponent even in a sixth sense. How you deal with it. There is a very specific methology behind it. The 92 year old 10th Soke still considers himself to be deep within that learning process. For someone to come along and say, "No matter I can do it myself could hardly be taken seriously.

Nothing condescending about it. Just pure and simple fact. Musashi is a will and a love of learning to practice in the hope that Musashi's spirit is watching us in the Dojo as we work 'in pairs'.


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## The Kai (Jun 16, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve
Please teach yourself how to box then maybe we can talk

Or teach yourself how to SkyDive
Good Luck
Good Riddence


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 16, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> One cannot achieve full combat potential unless they use a style created by and for themself. Using someone elses combat style is ludicrousy because it was originally meant to be used by its original creator who may have died thousands of years ago.
> Furthermore, the best way to learn in combat is through experience.  An instructor, of any level of ability, will not teach you as much as you could learn in actual combat.  One may ask how a person can safely and effectively reach a point where they are ready for actual combat, but one never is.  Those with innate talent go a long way and learn quickly, exposing themselves to opponents that use many different types of styles, so they become adaptable.  And then they feel the need to pass on what they've learned, even though they cannot accurately describe it or explain it themselves. That is the problem.
> On a side note, there have been many occasions in which well trained martial artists have been beaten by real-world and street wise fighters.




Well, a few years of street fighting and such, and then I started to train. I survived the being a punk phase, and then moved into a being a bouncer phase. During the bouncer pahse I had no, to some training, to a few years of good training.  At each step I was always capable of learning more, even though I had survived all my encounters previously.

Encounters included: 

1) One on One
2) Me gainst many
3) A few(us) against many(them)
4) Blunt weapons - against me
5) Edged weapons - against me
6) Flexible weapons - against me
7) Using the environment as a weapon - against me and my use of
8) The use of vehicles as weapons - parking lot manuevers, higher speeds, and high speed. Both against me and as a weapon.
9) Firearms - against me
10) . . . (* Anything I forgot to mention, such as rolling through a window. *)

I consider myself ok to pretty good in what I train in. I also consider myself very lucky to have survived, all of the stuff I have seen and done.

I see the great reasons for taking stuff live, and I do, but I also respect that training helps you. I also respect that the guy on the street with training or no training, it does not matter, can touch me or hit me or hurt me, for I might be off in timing, or off balance, or having a bad day, or just plain not paying attention, or, ..., . 

I just think, if you ahve no one to train you, then work it your self, but do not throw away what you could learn from others, just because of having a closed mind, against traditional systems or teachings.


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## shesulsa (Jun 16, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> I hate to sound so condescending, but it seems to me that those with "formal instruction" do not hesitate to condescend those without it. You are not automatically more knowledgable, more skilled, or more fit to teach others than me just because you learned from someone else. Get over it.


 Curious position, because your posts here are nothing if not condescending.

 Formal training can consist of the culmination of the training of all people before the instructor - that's what lineage is supposed to be all about. And while no system is perfect and politics abound, there is still much to be said for formal training just as there is for practice and self-discovery.

 What "feels right" might not be proper technique and the way technique becomes proper is the tried and true foundations of many centuries and many battles and many wars.

 And to say you can learn basic stick fighting in a backyard for 30 minutes says much for your attitude.  Curious - is the reason you don't have an instructor because you've been turned away?

 So ... what you're really doing is coming up with your own ideas and not really knowing if they are viable fighting techniques or not, and you plan (in five years or more) to spread this culmination of your experimentation to others as a viable fighting system.

 Will you call yourself Soke?


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## Grenadier (Jun 16, 2005)

My two cents:

There are some exceptionally talented people that can "self-train" themselves to the point of decent proficiency, but when you're dealing with weaponry, is it really that good of an idea to try this without proper supervision?  

Swords, and yes, even bokken, are potentially dangerous items, of course.  If you're going to learn how to use one, then it only makes sense to learn from those who already have some knowledge on the subject.  

Training from a decent instructor will show proper handling of the sword / bokken, and reduce the amount of time needed to find out how to use such an object.  It's not as simple as watching a movie and trying to assimilate such techniques, since most of what we see in Hollyweird is rather...  odd.  

Furthermore, when you train with a decent instructor, you'll get a chance to practice with another human being.  No amount of self-imagination can replace performing drills and sparring with a real, live, opponent!

Everyone makes mistakes, and to learn from your own mistakes AND the mistakes of others, is the wise thing to do.  If you can learn from the mistakes of others, then that's going to save you a lot of bruises, cuts, or God forbid, loss of extremities / limbs.


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## MisterMike (Jun 16, 2005)

A few good points here so far.

I think the differences arise when someone tries to pass off their swordwork study as traditional when in fact they have had little or no training in it.

Everyone here could probably agree that placing a sword in the hands of a beginner who just has natural ability will shatter the ego of someone training officially for 10+ years.

I liked the example of Xtreme Sports athletes. Most of these guys have the natural ability to learn something physical quickly and take it to levels many of us cannot. Give one of them a sword and I think in a short time you would see better results than someone with no talent in a formal school. I'm being general here, so I hope you get my point.

So, if it makes you happy, pick up a sword and go train. Practice what you feel you need to practice. Even if there is a MJER school down the street. Just do what you like and don't feel the need to test yourself against anyone else.

Same for those who train under a teacher. You should at least be happy that there is someone else out there who likes to pick up a blade and get some work done - and not have the need to cut down their skills.


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## The Kai (Jun 16, 2005)

Is'nt there some rather infamous clips on the Net of StarWarzKid self training?


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## Mark Barlow (Jun 16, 2005)

Swordsoulsteve,

If I missed it in an earlier post, I apologize but how old are you?

Mark Barlow


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

Wow....I wasn't expecting to see so many posts so quickly, though I suppose I should have. I appreciate the respect, the open mindedness, and the patience you are all giving in your responses, and I must say you have put up good enough arguments here to have persuaded me, at least to a degree.
 As far as why I do not have a formal instuctor or someone of more experience helping me train, it's not exactly refusal....my preferred style of combat is twin short swords nearly to exclusion of all else. I realize that many of you may argue even against my unwillingness to start with something simpler or start with unarmed combat or whatever. I also realize that it truly is a bit stupid. However, I hold neither an interest nor any talent toward fighting without a weapon(something of which much training is often required in to even begin training with weapons) or learning other weapons. So far, practicing with my swords has helped me to get a general ryhthm and even perhaps a more positive outlook on my possibilities in other forms of combat, thus, at the moment I prefer to focus on one thing at a time.
     The other reason I am without instruction is the simple inability to find any in my area.
 Other points.....no, I do not have any clips of myself practicing, nor can I make any in the near future, luckily, which saves me from seeming like a further fool to you all. I am not embarassed of my technique, but I'm sure someone would find a way to make me so. As to my age, which I'm sure I'll regret releasing, only 15. I know my argument is dumb, I bring it up only to perhaps learn from it, and I have. So gimme a break.
 If I can ever find an instructor that teaches such things as more of a "guide" than as a "learn it the right way" teacher, I would be honored to train beneath him/her. Thanks, everyone, for your posts. My respect for all of you has not diminished through the course of this debate. I hope the same can be said of me.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 16, 2005)

You might want to poke around for Kali/escrima/arnis.

 Yes, it is stick fighting.  But the sticks are often to represent blades (without the training injuries).  And they will teach double stick/blade fighting.


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## shesulsa (Jun 16, 2005)

Steve, I know of other 15 year olds who are talented martial artists who chomp at the bit for sword training.  

 Formal empty-handed training usually precludes weapons training to build muscles and train them for handling weapons.  Form and technique are important in weapons training and this begins with empty hands.  Part of the training is also mental and while most people think this is a waste of time, the training in patience is tantamount to weapons training.  The progression is there for reasons that are, apparently, escaping you at the moment ... now why this is could be many factors.

 If you want my opinion, if a person of any age with no formal training came to me wanting weapons training (should I be authorized by my instructor to teach weapons) without formal empty-handed training, I would refuse and you'd probably see the same from the vast majority of instructors.

 I'm glad you feel you're gaining some confidence about training at all by working with twin swords independently, but I must caution you that if you are practicing bad habits that you are unaware of, UN-training yourself from those bad habits later will be a much longer, more arduous path than you might know.

 I would advise you to seek traditional training on a trade basis - that is, trade babysitting services or carwashing or lawnmowing services (or something productive) for training if you can find an instructor willing to do this.  Most probably won't, but the one who will just might be worth his salt.  And if you get some private or semi-private training from the deal you might - _might_ - be able to get to weaponry faster than in a group class.

 See, weapons are flashy and whatnot, but ... if you don't know how to use any weapon properly, it's more likely to be used against you.

 I wish you the best of luck ... and better training. :asian:


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## Mark Barlow (Jun 16, 2005)

If this post comes across as overly harsh, I apologize beforehand. The concept of self training is a particular sore spot for me so be forewarned.

No offense intended but your age does much to explain your view of formal training and apparent lack of respect for those with more experience. As to giving you a break because of your age....you seem to consider yourself an equal to students and instructors who have trained longer than you've been alive. Since we're asked to accept your word on your skill, age and experience should be considered when estimating your likely level of ability.

It is possible that you are naturally gifted and can become an adept without the assistance of an instructor but I doubt it. If Musashi was truly self trained, he still had the benefit of being immersed in a warrior culture and no doubt "played" at kenjutsu from a very early age. Swinging sticks with your friends in the backyard may give you an edge in fighting folks with even less experience than you but it won't make you a swordsman.

The word sensei basically means, "someone who has gone before" or "someone with more experience". At 15 that might not seem important but trust me, as you get older, you'll come to appreciate having someone to point out pitfalls and roadblocks. As for the argument of not having an instructor available so you'll training yourself till one comes along, all that will do is create bad habits that will make future training even more difficult.

I really do wish you luck on your training and hope you are successful.

Mark Barlow


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

Thanks for the honest advice, guys.  I know that training myself as I have been seems foolish, but my style is practical enough at least to not do anything stupid that will get me hurt.  I don't personally believe in doing any flashy moves at all-for that very reason, along with the fact that they're just plain ineffective.  I can't stop myself from practicing as I always have, that would be asking too much.  And where practicing actual combat is concerned, I try to separate it from what I learn in solitary training, at least to the point where I can analyze what seems to work and what's unnecessary or ineffective and needs to be removed.
   I suppose that nearly wraps it up on my end.  Once again, thank you all for everything, and please forgive me if I have offended.


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## Tgace (Jun 16, 2005)

As the odds of sword combat these days is pretty slim, Id say this topic is academic anyways.


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## Mark Barlow (Jun 16, 2005)

As the odds of sword combat these days is pretty slim, Id say this topic is academic anyways.Today 02:58 PM



That's true but the odds of a 15 yr old either cutting himself our one of his buddies while "training" is pretty high.


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## Gene Williams (Jun 16, 2005)

Steve and Andrew, You are the kind of guys that stumble over the truth once in a while, but pick yourselves up and keep right on going. Neither of you can handle the structure and discipline of a traditional ryu, so you have to keep convincing yourselves you know better than generations of others who did it the "right" way...yes, I said, "the right way." That really shakes up your relativistic world view doesn't it?


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Steve and Andrew, You are the kind of guys that stumble over the truth once in a while, but pick yourselves up and keep right on going. Neither of you can handle the structure and discipline of a traditional ryu, so you have to keep convincing yourselves you know better than generations of others who did it the "right" way...yes, I said, "the right way." That really shakes up your relativistic world view doesn't it?


 You are certainly right in that I have trouble learning a traditional ryu, Gene, mostly because I have trouble learning anything in the traditional way.  I need a great deal of freedom in learning things, and often have to at least review them on my own to understand them in my own way and make them work for me.  I am the same way when it comes to any sort of physical training.
   When an instructor might say that a particular movement or blocking technique may be the most effective in a certain situation, I may disagree and decide to come up with a simpler and quicker one that works better for me, but not better for him/her or anyone in his class, because they simply don't think of it the way I do, or move the way I do, or whatever.  This may or may not continue in such a fashion and I may or may not become frustrated and leave due to conflict of methods.
   "The right way" is indeed a difficult topic for me to discuss, because it seems variable based on subject and situation.  Generally, however, I don't believe in the right way.  I believe in me, my way, and where possible and in agreement with my own mind, learning from the ways of others as well.
   I can understand your disapproval with me, thinking about this frustrates me as well, but I can't help it.


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## Tgace (Jun 16, 2005)

In other words you are a "know it all" who cant take criticism. And knows better than his instructor. The picture is becoming clear.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

Mark Barlow said:
			
		

> As the odds of sword combat these days is pretty slim, Id say this topic is academic anyways.Today 02:58 PM
> 
> 
> 
> That's true but the odds of a 15 yr old either cutting himself our one of his buddies while "training" is pretty high.


 Just as a point I suppose you should be aware of, Mark, I would never use a real sword in sparring.  On my own I always do, and I won't lie, I've gotten a few scrapes, but if my memory serves me correctly, only one time have i cut myself in practice, and it, nor any of my other injuries, were serious.
   From personal experience, the only time I've ever messed up to the point of the sword hitting me was A: trying a new technique, idea, or whatever it is you may wish to label it as, or B: when switching between weapons while still attempting to retain the rhythm of my movements.(like switching between two different lengths of swords or different types without first attempting to adjust to the new weight, feel, etc.)


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## shesulsa (Jun 16, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> I need a great deal of freedom in learning things, and often have to at least review them on my own to understand them in my own way and make them work for me. I am the same way when it comes to any sort of physical training.


 This indicates you are unable to respect those in authority or with more knowledge and ability than you such that you might receive knowledge from them.



			
				SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> When an instructor might say that a particular movement or blocking technique may be the most effective in a certain situation, I may disagree and decide to come up with a simpler and quicker one that works better for me, but not better for him/her or anyone in his class, because they simply don't think of it the way I do, or move the way I do, or whatever. This may or may not continue in such a fashion and I may or may not become frustrated and leave due to conflict of methods.


 If you have that little faith in what it takes to become a martial arts instructor, then you have absolutely no business handling weapons of any kind.



			
				SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> "The right way" is indeed a difficult topic for me to discuss, because it seems variable based on subject and situation.  *Generally, however, I don't believe in the right way. I believe in me, my way, and where possible and in agreement with my own mind, learning from the ways of others as well.*


 So if it has to be your way or the highway, if I were your mother, I'd raid your room and rid you of all weapons.



			
				SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> I can understand your disapproval with me, thinking about this frustrates me as well, but I can't help it.


 I think you can ... but I also think you don't want to ... and that makes you an unsuitable candidate for weapons training, in my opinion.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

If you wish to think of me as a know it all who can't take criticism, then you may well be right, but saying that theres only one right way to hold a sword or use a sword is wrong.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 16, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> Just as a point I suppose you should be aware of, Mark, I would never use a real sword in sparring.  On my own I always do, and I won't lie, I've gotten a few scrapes, but if my memory serves me correctly, *only one time* have i cut myself in practice, and it, nor any of my other injuries, were serious.


Forgive me but I think when it comes to anything like that... once is all it takes. You're lucky and I'm sure you know that as well... But well I think those of us who are voicing our concern probably don't want to be reading about you at this  particular website.  :idunno: Do be careful doing whatever it is that you want. :asian:


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

That's funny, because martial arts instructors the world over have been changing martial arts for thousands of years, coming up with new ideas that may be more effective or creating a new style that branches off of an old one if certain points of their new style conflict with the old.  Should they never be allowed to use a weapon because they had more faith in their new ideas than those of their masters?


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

I must say that I do find it heartwarming that you all have such interest in me, even if it is only to argue or to try to make me see the light, so to speak.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

And not hurting oneself seems to be a matter of common sense....Don't do anything that you will have a good chance of hurting yourself doing.....accidents can always happen, even to the best of us, and I am indeed referring to the human race as a whole, which hopefully includes those who would argue against me, however a person should not train in an art at all if they fear hurting themselves without someone telling them how not to.


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## Hyaku (Jun 16, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> As the odds of sword combat these days is pretty slim, Id say this topic is academic anyways.



We do not swords for combat. Generally the Japanese Budo is not centered on combat. Its just that the whole lot including modern day combat, self defence, MA sports etc all get mishmashed into one big package to the extent that some cant seem to assimilate which is which. Works well if a modern day combat group can get a few Japanese grades to look good and give some ancients roots to what they do. 

The Forums themselves also lump it all in there further confuse the unbeknowing with few stickes telling people a little of the contents, facets and philosophy if any. 

How anyone can confuse a possible streetfight confrontation with swords beats me. Everyone should have the basic understanding that going into the world of Japanese sword arts is for most a very self educating, spiritual philosophical art through use of an ancient weapon and a lot of very hard work. A lot of very hard, dont question, just "do it" stuff. It starts with single long sword work. Thirty years or so could lead to two sword and even harder shortsword other weapon then disarming.

Musashi was a firm believer of learning the weapons of his day. After seeing the terrifying power of the first guns and the prospect of dodging bullets/balls he realized the futility had pressed the point of having a bit more heart and sensitivity would stop us even picking weapons up.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

And as for "your way or the highway", instructors teach this way yet they seem to get all the esteem that can be granted.  No one takes their wepons away from them.
   Each individual knows, and if they don't, they certainly should know, the learning method that best works for them.  Am I wrong in knowing what mine is?
   Is a teacher right for not knowing what mine is?


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

I see no purpose in continuing this conversation in its current direction.  I know that many of you feel that I am a stupid, self centered delinquent, but perhaps as I get older I'll grow up a bit and see that you are indeed right, and I must learn in the way that it is intended to be taught.  Chances are that I simply haven't reached that level of maturity yet, and I might never.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

By the way, does anyone know of any links for clips of students/masters of sword arts sparring or practicing kata?


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## Gene Williams (Jun 16, 2005)

Find a sword school, I mean a real one, traditional. Go there and tell one of the seniors that you would like to do some kumitachi and that you believe that your made up sword stuff is superior to his. Be serious, not flippant, and be courteous (this may be difficult for you). Many will probably refuse you, but there will be one somewhere who will take you up on it. You will use bokken (that's a wooden sword), so you won't get cut. Then you can prove to yourself and at least one traditionalist that your made up stuff is superior. It won't take long...a step or two and you'll be on your way to the ER. Do you have medical insurance? A will?

ps If you can't find any traditional swordsmen who will take you up on it, I know of several who are maverick and mean enough to do so (most swordsmen are polite and do not accept challenges). I can direct you to them or give you their information (with their permission, of course)


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## Shu2jack (Jun 16, 2005)

Steve, I understand what you are saying and I think you are on the right track, but you are missing a piece to the puzzle that others on this forum are trying to give you.

"Traditionalists" should not be arrogent or look down on someone just because of how they train. They can disagree with it and thing it is flat-out wrong, but nobody should simply be putting you down without cause. (Though you are giving people great cause to do so.)

You are also correct that one should train and fight in a way that suits your body and that martial artists change the arts all the time. The difference between you and them is that they have a solid base to work from and can articulate what they know and WHY it works. Yes, you could get decent at training yourself, but you would develop slower, lack certain knowledge, and not have a strong foundation to grow from other than "IT JUST WORKS!!".

My suggestion is to go to a school and train in an instructor's method, wheather you agree with it or not. Continue to do this and trust in your instructor untill you reach the rank of black belt or equiviliant. In most schools, a black belts means you have "mastered" or at least understand the basics. From there, you can grow and start to make the art work for you.

I say this from personal expereince. I have been studying TKD for 12 years since I was 11. For a long time I did everything like my instructor. How I kicked, block, struck, moved, etc. After about 6 years I watched other instructors in the school and started really exploring the techniques myself. I noticed that other instructors under my instructor kicked slightly different. I started kicking slightly different than my instructor. I used to prefer to shorten my chamber for a side kick (shorter than what my instructor, thus I used to) so I could deliver the kick faster. For me, the sacrifice of a small amount of power was worth it because I could deliver the kick faster. It worked for me because of my body. About 2 1/2 months ago I tore part of my muscle from my leg. There is no need for an operation, but my leg speed, strength, flexiblity, balance, etc. is reduced along with leg endurance. 

If I had to suffer an injury like this at any point of my life, I am glad it is now. I am young enough to overcome it (22 years old), and because I have spent 12 years studying my art under a traditional system I know the basics well enough to know how to modify my kick and still have it be effective. Because I studied formally I gained a solid base under good instruction, I understand why a kick works and the principles of kicking/power, and I learned how to modifiy techniques to suit different people from my expereince in teaching different people. So while I am a "gimp" at times, after I warm up I can still give someone a bloody nose with my kicks. Not only has my "formal" training helped me overcome my injury, it will help me as I explore the arts and continue to gain knowledge and figure out how to make techniques work for me.


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## arnisador (Jun 16, 2005)

With whom are you working out? You must need practice partners, right? You surely couldn't develop a useful sword system without someone to test it against--and they'd need to be skilled for it to be useful training. If you're practicing in the air or against untrained teenagers, you can't be learning much.


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## Hyaku (Jun 16, 2005)

Lol well the forum has me posted as a white belt but I'm happy with that. I wear mine to hold my saya and give me good back support with all the heavy hip work we do

Because its an MA baord I suppose people tend to come over rather strong.
I did Karate for quite a while and myself though there was a a bit of an egotistical macho image I felt was unnecessary. Perhaps this was just my particular group. Then I went to a Kendo class. shaking hands, big smiles all round. "Ah come in take of your shoes and socks come in, join in" etc.
Then they put on Bogu and I was shocked at the ferociousness that was shown. Then they took of the bogu and sure enough two gentlemen were still there. No arrogancy whatsoever. Wow I thought I want some more of this (and I still do).

Also there has always been this talk of Kobudo snobbery. Some will even tell say, "You cant learn outside Japan or dish out lessons like sacred pieces of information or an expensive medicine. Those that do power trips and like the certificates etc

Its simply not the case. Find a good Dojo, get stuck and you will make some good friends. 

Hundreds and hundreds of years have shown there are in actuall fact tried and tested methods of practice. If you really have a lot a of natural ability you can channel it in and will go far. If you want to learn something new, learn some thing old. Pop along somewhere and practice for a while then post here and tell us what you think.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

Ok guys, Thank you for your posts, but I'm done here.  It seems I have directly offended some of you, and for that, I'm sorry.  I have no intention of bringing up a topic of debate so disagreeable as this or debating a topic in such a way again(meant honestly, not sarcastically, in case that went unnoticed).


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## arnisador (Jun 16, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> This indicates you are unable to respect those in authority or with more knowledge and ability than you such that you might receive knowledge from them.


 I think this is much too harsh. Different people have different learning styles--even if they don't have a further issue, like ADHD or something--and I respect those who recognize what their learning style is and adapt to it. The typical approach works for most of us, but it won't work for all of us. How many stories are there of self-taught geniuses (or otherwise distinguished individuals)? Einstein and Lincoln spring readily to mind. A given person is probably not a genius, but might still do better under a different system.

 Still, those who were self-taught _taught themselves existing knowledge_ rather than creating their own versions.

 Some styles do have traditions of one-on-one training (e.g., Balintawak) and of tailoring the art to the person, and those arts might be appropriate.


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## shesulsa (Jun 16, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I think this is much too harsh. Different people have different learning styles--even if they don't have a further issue, like ADHD or something--and I respect those who recognize what their learning style is and adapt to it. The typical approach works for most of us, but it won't work for all of us. How many stories are there of self-taught geniuses (or otherwise distinguished individuals)? Einstein and Lincoln spring readily to mind. A given person is probably not a genius, but might still do better under a different system.
> 
> Still, those who were self-taught _taught themselves existing knowledge_ rather than creating their own versions.
> 
> Some styles do have traditions of one-on-one training (e.g., Balintawak) and of tailoring the art to the person, and those arts might be appropriate.


 Perhaps I didn't convey my meaning and ... honestly I'm not sure I can without offending someone.  But while you do make a very good point, Jeff, I still wonder, however, about this statement by Steve:


> Generally, however, I don't believe in the right way. I believe in me, my way, and where possible and in agreement with my own mind, learning from the ways of others as well.


 This led me to the likelihood of plain old youth and disregard.  Could be age (and it most probably is), but this particular statement could belie a common problem.


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## arnisador (Jun 16, 2005)

Well, you could very well be right. It does sound a lot like youthful hubris. I'm saying there's more than one possible explanation. I'll grant that yours is the more likely, but I'd be reluctant to label someone with that until I was sure that was the right explanation.


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## Drifter (Jun 16, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> That's funny, because martial arts instructors the world over have been changing martial arts for thousands of years, coming up with new ideas that may be more effective or creating a new style that branches off of an old one if certain points of their new style conflict with the old. Should they never be allowed to use a weapon because they had more faith in their new ideas than those of their masters?


  People are _adapting_ a style in that example. Rarely, a new martial art is created, but more often, it's someone copying the style they previously studied. coughSCARScough...

 And as for use of a weapon? Most arts include that aspect. Kung Fu (broadsword, butterfly knives, staff), Kenpo (Staff set, Mr. Pick), Karate (Sais, nunchaku), Jujitsu (tonfa), Arnis (sticks, knives, staff, anything that can be swung  ) etc. all have weapons training. If you are looking for PRACTICAL, as you described yourself and your methods, how often are you carrying DOUBLE SHORT SWORDS? Nonetheless at 15? How often are you near objects that could be improvised into double short swords? 

  A more poignant question might be 'why do you desire to learn double short swords'? 

 Today we were working on kicking shields in class, and as one instructor walked by, they said, "Sam, that's a horrible roundhouse". Okay, mental note, I need to work more on my left leg roundhouses. Who gives you the critique of your technique other than yourself?

 If you want to learn how to fight practically, in a manner which is fairly free form, and can be personalized to you, look at Modern Arnis. Look at the FMA in general. 

  Here's a shortened version of my take on this whole mess:

  If you can't take the time to be instructed for a while, how can you possibly have the patience to create an entire system?


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## shesulsa (Jun 16, 2005)

Steve - allow me to backpeddle a bit and ask you a question or two ....

 Where are you learning what you're learning from?  Do you have videotapes? Books?  Train from videogames? Movies?


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## Ojiisan (Jun 16, 2005)

Wow....  I am impressed with Steve...  He is only 15 and already a legend in his own mind.  I am only 60 and am still on the path to enlightenment.


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## Don Roley (Jun 17, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> I hate to sound so condescending, but it seems to me that those with "formal instruction" do not hesitate to condescend those without it.  You are not automatically more knowledgable, more skilled, or more fit to teach others than me just because you learned from someone else. Get over it.



We are better than you. Get over it.

Here is some hard telling that you should listen to. I have had the experience of trying to learn things on my own. I have also had the experience of training under sword masters here in Japan. So I have experienced what you have gone through, but you have not gone through mine.

So when I say that there is no subsitute for a good teacher, I speak from a viewpoint that you can't even imagine.

Have you ever killed anyone at all? Let alone with a sword? People have killed to learn the stuff they pass down through living traditions. Do you think that at age 15 you think hitting your friends in your back yard with toy swords is going to equal the lesson of actually killing someone?

15 is a tough time. You think you know everything. Again, I speak from experience here. I also know from experiences that you have not had that a 15 year old is not considered fully responsibile for their decisions for a damn good reason.

The first step in mastering the sword is mastering your ego. If you can't do that, if you can't accept the discipline of someone with a link to a tradition born in blood, you are doomed for the rest of your life to be one of the jokes in the martial arts.


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## Mark Barlow (Jun 17, 2005)

When all is said and done, the kid is gonna do what he wants to do.  Age and experience don't matter to him at this point in his life and nothing we say or do will change that.  I've had several kids come in my dojo and think that rasslin' in the backyard with their buddies after watching UFC tapes somehow equals legitimate Jujutsu training.  Each and every one became defensive and snotty when it came time to actually learn something from folks who actually know something.  None of them lasted because it's easier to be a master in your own neighborhood then it is to be a student in the dojo.

My sincere hope is that Steve grows out of his arrogance and ignorance before he hurts someone.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 17, 2005)

Actually, I've read all the posts over again, in a third-person type of view point, though the word I'm trying to think of to describe it escapes me, and I've been out of line.  I realize now that I really do need an instructor to be the best I can hope to be,  to teach me the new things I don't know, help me refine the things I do know, and tell me what I need to work on.
   If I can find one willing to train me in some weapons styles, I would like to learn from them, but I still have no interest in unarmed combat.  That will never change.  So, I'll look around and try to keep an open mind, and try to trust in my instructor as best I can, if I find one, though I'll always be a "Why should it be done this way?" and overall inquisitive type of learner.
   I want to learn the ways of swords for many reasons, some of which I really can't explain.  Simply holding one, the feel of it, the flow of it, the sound of it through the air makes me feel as one with it.  Practicing swordsmanship brings me peace of mind and makes me feel complete; it gives me purpose.  This is why I get angry when someone tells me that I am unfit to have a sword because I don't know how to properly use it.
   Now I guess it's time to try and focus my abilities and learn from someone who is more experienced than myself, even though I never saw a need before.


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## Ceicei (Jun 17, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> If I can find one willing to train me in some weapons styles, I would like to learn from them, but I still have no interest in unarmed combat. That will never change. So, I'll look around and try to keep an open mind, and try to trust in my instructor as best I can, if I find one, though I'll always be a "Why should it be done this way?" and overall inquisitive type of learner.


  You might not have any interest in unarmed combat, but you will find this very practical to learn how.

 Many of the martial arts that teach swordmanship also teach unarmed combat. Why? Because you need to know what to do if you ever become disarmed. How will you defend yourself, especially if the opponent decides to use your weapon against you?

 If your interest is strictly on using swords and nothing else, you might want to look into competitive sword-fighting (fencing). They learn how to use different types of swords in a competitive environment. If you love footwork and being able to use swords from different angles, then there are styles that teach katas and forms on how to display the handling of swords. What you want to do depends on what your goal is with learning swords.

 What is your goal with using swords? This may help with deciding which direction you may want to go with studying swordsmanship.

    - Ceicei


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## Blindside (Jun 17, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> Now I guess it's time to try and focus my abilities and learn from someone who is more experienced than myself, even though I never saw a need before.



Where are you?  Perhaps we can point you towards some good instruction.  

Lamont


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## Gene Williams (Jun 17, 2005)

Did someone say that Stevie is only 15? Oh, this is too good! Does he even use a safety razor yet? So, he's out in the back yard playing Musashi with a stick. And we're giving him this much attention? Talk about a "child oriented society."


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## arnisador (Jun 17, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> People have killed to learn the stuff they pass down through living traditions.


 Or, people have passed down the stuff they learned when they killed someone.

*Don Roley* makes an important point. Just swinging toy swords may not be enough to learn how to deliver a stroke that will really deliver a maiming or killing strike. (How many martial artists spar in a touch-fighting way that's more a game than about delivering combative blows?) It also may not be enough to develop blocks that'll work against a determined opponent who's swinging to kill you.

 You can't get swordfighting experience without fighting with swords--and a real sword differs from a wooden one in important ways. Traditional swordfighting schools pass down that accumulated real-life experience.

 Remy Presas fought in real stick matches to develop his stick-fighting skills. (He had plenty of training too.) People were really hit with sticks--hard. That's experience. But even one person's experience is biased by his or her own skills and preferences--something that a style that's benefitted from the experience of many practitioners may overcome.


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## evenflow1121 (Jun 17, 2005)

Though you say that a self taught artist can be just as good as one with formal training, both have to start their training in the beginning, the main difference is that the guy with a formal instructor (if the instructor is legitimate and not some clown) has an advantage because s/he is already being filtered right off the bat, as opposed to someone without formal training who must learn through a more rigid form or trial and error. Wouldnt you agree that it would take longer for someone who is self-taught as opposed to someone with a solid instructor with a good foundation, to learn what is effective?


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## Bester (Jun 17, 2005)

Steve, 

You can't learn any art by just playing power ranger or ninja in your back yard.

A library of books, videos and an equally untrained buddy or 3 is no substitute for the guidence of a professional.

There are nuances to things that you will miss.  Grips, footwork, correct angles and flow.

Cutting tatami isn't it, neither is wacking away with boffer sticks.  If you watch the movies and think thats real, it's not.  It's show.  Reality isn't Samurai X.

You can learn the basics.  You may even get to be ok.  But you won't get good, and definately won't be great without the hands on guidence of someone who lives the stuff 24/7/365.


Oh, and you seem to be new to the forums.  Welcome.  Heres something that might help you fit in better when dealing with those who have gone before you.:
http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/netiquette_101.html


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## Swordlady (Jun 17, 2005)

> If I can find one willing to train me in some weapons styles, I would like to learn from them, but I still have no interest in unarmed combat. That will never change. So, I'll look around and try to keep an open mind, and try to trust in my instructor as best I can, if I find one, though I'll always be a "Why should it be done this way?" and overall inquisitive type of learner.


I'm not going to rehash what others have already said, but I will provide you a few links to help you locate a dojo:

Kendo: http://www.kendo-usa.org/statedojolist.htm

Aikido: http://www.aikiweb.com/search/

Link to different martial art styles: http://martial-arts-network.com/orgs.php

No matter where you decide to train, you _will_ have to learn empty-hand techniques.  Believe me, learning those techniques help you with weapons training.

Although I am several years removed from my Tae Kwon Do days during my teen years, those old skills are pretty handy in my present-day JSA training.

Best of luck in your search.


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## KenpoTess (Jun 17, 2005)

* Mod Note

Thread Locked Pending Admin Review

~Tess
-MT S. Mod
*


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